# Advice Required - Books on design



## Tierney (8 Jan 2007)

Hello,

Can anyone recommend some books on the design of cabinets / furniture. For example standard/suggested measurements, proportions etc., and examples of various pieces. I have just started woodworking in my spare time and I am hoping to find some designs that I can tailor to my requirements, or rules of thumb to consider when designing something from scratch. Most woodworking books that I have seen or own tend to focus on technical skills, i.e. how to make a dovetail joint.

The only thing I have seen so far is in David Charlesworth's first book, where he recommends a book by Ernest Joyce (The technique of furniture making), which according to Amazon has 100 pages on design?

Thanks,

David


----------



## Scrit (8 Jan 2007)

Hi David and welcome

There's relatively on woodworking design as such I'm afraid, and Joyce is as good a source as any to start with, especially as it delves into techniques as well. In terms of proportion one of the basics is the Golden Ratio, or a base to side proportion of approximately 1:1.618 on which topic someone (help!) recently posted a link to a webcast, which I have now completely lost  

In terms of general design the best thing is to borrow books on design topics from your local library and even to buy a few. Make a cutting file of design ideas you like, from shapes to colours, anything which you feel attracted to to act as a form library. The more you take note of what others do, the more you'll be able to decide what you do and don't like. One on-line source of information is Design Addict. Take a look at some of the work of Hans Wegner, Ray Eames and Aalto Aalvar (amongst others) onthat site and you'll begin to see iconic and influential design elements. I'd also consider getting hold of the Taschen (publisher) list as they do a wide range of books of 20th Century design and furniture.

Scrit


----------



## BrianD (8 Jan 2007)

Hi there,

welcome to the forum.

Like you I looked around for books on design. Regretfully, I have not found any of value.

Joyce's book is OK but really on techniques and materials rather than design. IMHO I felt I did not get my money's worth even though it was recommended here (I expect a hammering on this statement 8-[ )

I like yourself feel a good start besides techniques is to obtain a sense of proportion or best practise wrt design; but alas I would say you need to look and examine (study) other excellent furniture products that others have produced.

Maybe others have comments?


----------



## Newbie_Neil (8 Jan 2007)

Hi David

Welcome to the forum.

There have been a number of articles in FWW (fine Wood Working) over the last couple of years about design, including at least one on the Golden Ratio. As FWW is now available on DVD this might be a good source. This is a search on FWW for "Design", which gave 1968 results.

In fact, our very own Steve Maskery wrote an article about the Golden Ratio in GW (goodWoodworking) about 18 months ago.

Cheers
Neil


----------



## Shivers (8 Jan 2007)

id say the alan peters book is a good start ,but also look at books relating to drafting as well, 
the sheraton,hepplewhite,chippendale,thomas hope,victorian cabinetmakers assistant, books all have nice plates to be able to judge proportion from. 
Although they are classic furniture designs in these books--they are crammed full of drawing lessons.

Without a doubt the best thing to have is a drafting table(this works better than pc cad programs to learn from),as most times the drawing is bigger & detail can be judged easier,drafting will also teach you valuable layout/setting out techniques. 

also learn how to scale a piece from photographs or images. 

regards ---shivers


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jan 2007)

You must enter a message when posting.


----------



## Paul Chapman (8 Jan 2007)

Unfortunately, most woodworking publications concentrate on tools and techniques. I find the best of the current publications is the monthly 'Furniture & Cabinet Making' which publishes some inspirational pieces each month.

As others have said, look at magazines and books outside woodworking if you want to see inspirational stuff and start making up a scrap book of stuff you like and can adapt to your needs and skills. Then turn to the woodworking publications to see how to go about making it.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## wrightclan (8 Jan 2007)

Welcome to the forum, David

Brad


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jan 2007)

For what its worth, in my humble opinion, at the end of the day, design is something that cant be learnt from "a book". Just like a canoeist cant learn to canoe from a book or a drummer learn to drum from a book, design is far too wide reaching a topic to be able to learn it from a few choice book's, you gotta _be_ like and _do_ like a designer to learn about design. As others such as Shivers, Jacob and Scrit have wisely sudgested, its far more important to make a wide ranging study of furniture forms from cultures and historical period's that are of particular personal interest to you, and to actually LOOK at them closely, collect photos (I have 100's in my computer been collecting for years and download things that interest me on an almost daily basis) also do drawings/sketches/technical notes and observations etc. Its amazing what you can discover this way if you keep an open mind. Any good designer has a good eye for form (Primarily); detail, and also a level of technical insight as to make a particular design concept doable within certain given constraints of budget/available technology's/material's etc and they do all this aparently effortlessly ending up with a product that doesnt look tired or uninspiring :lol: . Also its worth pointing out theres as many aproaches to design as there are ways to skin a cat. I mean, theres the classy greek geometric thing, then theres the contempory minimalist thing, the rustic country thing, the ethnic global vibe etc etc etc :lol: Different folk will have different criteria for deciding if something represents an axample of "good design". And its also worth pointing out you dont HAVE to be 100% original ALL the time :lol: Its OK to learn by simply copying a piece of furniture you like, in fact that is a traditional way of learning. You may come across book's that say they will teach you how to be a designer blah blah blah, but I used to get books that said how to be a drummer....I discovered that eventually it was down to me to get stuck in, practice and make some hard won progress, theres no short cuts; its the same with designing, the way I and others have sudgested takes longer, but is more rewarding in the long run. I hope I havent discouraged you and may I wish you good sucess with your design endevuors
cheers Jonathan


----------



## Roger (8 Jan 2007)

Here you go Scrit ..............

Golden Stuff


----------



## Scrit (8 Jan 2007)

Hi Roger

There was actually a post somewhere or other which had a link to a video showing how to make and use a "Golden Mean" setting out tool. D*mned if I can remember where I saw it, though

Scrit


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jan 2007)

You must enter a message when posting.


----------



## Roger (8 Jan 2007)

Scrit - Making the Gauge is on that site, but no video. I think I remember that video - maybe a YouTube thing from someone? I can't find it either ...

That is some BIG seedling - screen wise as well!


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jan 2007)

Woops  , erm.....ahem....sorry chaps  
I tried to update the atavar thing and initially forgot to use a smaller pixle size. I got a shock when I saw the size of that thing gawd knows what was going through your minds when it loomed out at you :lol: . I think its back to normal now no one was having halucinations. Actually my little lad planted 6 acorn's late last year and 5 have come up, only they sprouted just as the trees everywhere else were dropping their leaves :shock: Is that because they are indoors?

Cheers Jonathan :lol:


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jan 2007)

I must admit I tend to agree with Jacob in so much as I think that the greek mathematticks myth has been a tad overplayed and over emphasised. In fact that klassikal mysticism stood for many centuries as if _it alone_ represented "good and refined" qualities in architecture/art/furniture etc, and that if something didnt have those mythickal magic proportions it could be written off as common, trash etc :roll: thats why until really only quite recently any major Western public building such as museum, library, opera house etc was designed and built to look like an ancient greek temple. But I think the world has sensibly moved on a bit from that rather elitist euro centric position. Theres many fine pieces that _dont_ have golden, silver or even bronze section's but which still stand as good examples of craft/design etc :wink: :lol: .
David, I forgot to mention one book which I found extremely influential and interesting was Patterns in Nature by Peter S Stevens (1974) Its not about design as such, more about learning to actually look at the patterns to be discerned in the world around us, simple but profound :wink: 
Cheers Jonathan


----------



## Scrit (8 Jan 2007)

Jacob 

I wouldn't say it's the solution to everything at all, however, it can help an inexperienced designer achieve a relatively pleasing proportions in a design, quickly. What is surprising is how many things fit into the ratio, though. But like in music, it doesn't mean you need to abide by the rules - rules are only ever a jumping-off point.

As for MDF I sometimes wonder if some of the great 18th century cabinetmakers might not have been overjoyed to be offered a relatively stable, flat ground for veneering work which wouldn't tear itself apart with changes in the weather.

Scrit


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jan 2007)

Scrit":1dg5voef said:


> Jacob But like in music, it doesn't mean you need to abide by the rules - rules are only ever a jumping-off point.



I like that sort of subversive talk 8) :lol:


----------



## Roger (8 Jan 2007)

It would surprise a lot of people to see what the likes of 'Chips' and similar old Masters designed into their pieces. Remarkably good plywoods, Papier Mache and pretty much anything they could get their hands on that worked and gave a good result. Not much different today I'd say!


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jan 2007)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Tierney (8 Jan 2007)

Dear All,

Thanks for your replies. I have already spent more than two hours following up on your suggestions, and I have now got some great reference material. I never thought I would end up in ancient Greece; but, I'm going to try using the golden ratio in a sideboard that I plan to build in 2007.

I think I'll hold off on buying more books and do the following:

1) Join the local library
2) Take out some subscriptions to some of the magazines you recommended
3) Take more photographs of furniture that I see (I had started already, much to the concern of my wife)
4) Be a bit more brazen and look inside the furniture that I see to understand how it is constructed!

David


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jan 2007)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Tierney (10 Jan 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":2qt0annk said:


> Tierney":2qt0annk said:
> 
> 
> > snip
> ...



got it, camera, tape measure, calipers; it will make an interesting addition to my briefcase

Cheers,

David, the frustrated accountant


----------



## Shultzy (10 Jan 2007)

A long time ago a colleague who was a very good amateur furniture maker used to walk around furniture stores with a long cardboard tube. It was in the days when stores didn't like people measuring furniture too closely as they knew people would try to copy. He used to mark the proportions of a piece on the tube and then go back home and draw it out. He said nobody ever suspected.


----------



## woodbloke (11 Jan 2007)

The Golden Ratio (or Mean..I don't think there's a difference) or Fibonacci series is a naturally occuring phenomenan (please, please can we have the spell chekker back) in nature that happens to have been first identified by the Greeks way before the birth of Christ...for example, in plants the way the leaves grow around a plant like a rose can be directly attributed to the Fibonarcci series.

When these attributes are used to make three dimensionl designs they have the uncanny ability to *LOOK* right, the proportions don't offend....you don't come away from the piece thinking 'something there doesn't look quite right...I wonder what it is?' Conversely, objects that _do_ adhere to this principal generally, though not always have the 'WOW' factor. That's why the Acropolis in Athens (and its not just the size of it) still has the ability to impress after 2500 years or so, whilst some old temples in Rome simply look like old temples, impressive though they may be.

On a more mundane note, Mr G, suppose you had a commission to make a window that was a 'double square' design, it wouldn't in my view look right...however reduce the longest side gradually by eye untill it looked _correct_ and you will probably find that it conforms closley to the ratio of Golden Mean - Rob


----------



## Anonymous (11 Jan 2007)

Shultzy":3llhm6qe said:


> A long time ago a colleague who was a very good amateur furniture maker used to walk around furniture stores with a long cardboard tube. It was in the days when stores didn't like people measuring furniture too closely as they knew people would try to copy. He used to mark the proportions of a piece on the tube and then go back home and draw it out. He said nobody ever suspected.



I like that :lol: :lol: Mobile rod man  8) 
My Grandmother used to be able to do that with dressmaking pattern's, just look at a garment and know how to divide the form to make a pattern.


----------



## Anonymous (11 Jan 2007)

You must enter a message when posting.


----------



## John McM (11 Jan 2007)

Scrit":ht1aphkc said:


> Hi Roger
> 
> There was actually a post somewhere or other which had a link to a video showing how to make and use a "Golden Mean" setting out tool. D*mned if I can remember where I saw it, though
> 
> Scrit




Here is a link to several videos, 1 of them shows how to make the golden ratio caliper which you can just hold up to drawings to get the magic proportions.
Collins complete woodwork manual has a nice section on design ergonomics. 
Cheers
John


----------



## woodbloke (11 Jan 2007)

Mr G - I do accept that line of thought but was refering to the overall outline of the window (say) rather than the components that sit within it. Much the same discussion on proportion taking place in Tony's new furniture thread on the General forum - Rob


----------



## John McM (12 Jan 2007)

John McM":jn0biama said:


> Scrit":jn0biama said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Roger
> ...





Do, here's the link

http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/catego ... 639752.xml


----------



## Anonymous (12 Jan 2007)

You must enter a message when posting.


----------

