# Disability Badges



## Max Power (22 Dec 2011)

I was stood at the Metro Center near to the disabled parking waiting for my wife to emerge from the shops and couldn't believe the number of apparently fit people leaping from the cars and trotting off into the distance :shock: 
I always assumed that people got parking badges because they had difficulty walking :? 
(these people all had badges and were not incorrectly using the parking)


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## AndyT (22 Dec 2011)

While there is undoubtedly abuse of the system, I think we should be wary of jumping to conclusions without knowing the whole story.

If you look at the rules for blue badge use in England (http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_186198.pdf) you'll see that it does allow for use by a disabled person *as a passenger*. So sometimes, yes, you will see an able-bodied driver fetching or dropping off a disabled person, who could have been inside the shopping centre.

If use is by an able-bodied person without the badge holder being there, then that is against the rules and offenders should be prosecuted. This is from the rules leaflet:


*Who can use the badge?*
The badge is for your use and benefit only. It must only be displayed if you are travelling in the vehicle as a driver or passenger, or if someone is collecting you or dropping you off and needs to park at the place where you are being collected or dropped.Do not allow other people to use the badge to do something on your behalf, such as shopping or collecting something for you, unless you are travelling with them.
• You must never give the badge to friends or family to allow them to park for free, even if they are visiting you.
• You should not use the badge to allow non-disabled people to take advantage of the benefits while you sit in the car. Although it is not illegal for a badge holder, or a non-disabled person waiting for the badge holder to return, to remain in the vehicle while the Blue Badge is displayed, consideration should be given to using a car park whenever possible.


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

One could argue you can park where you like at the Metro Centre. Badge or no badge.


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## JakeS (22 Dec 2011)

My mother has suggested in the past that she may be eligible for a disabled badge, as she has suffered from fibromyalgia; 
it doesn't give her any overt signs of disability, just makes everything ache constantly. She didn't ask after one as she felt herself perfectly capable of walking an extra few metres in the car park, but I imagine there are many other conditions which are debilitating but not obvious at first glance.



AndyT":308cyel5 said:


> If you look at the rules for blue badge use in England (http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_186198.pdf) you'll see that it does allow for use by a disabled person *as a passenger*. So sometimes, yes, you will see an able-bodied driver fetching or dropping off a disabled person, who could have been inside the shopping centre.



There was a story going around here recently about an able-bodied woman who had been queried when using a disabled space, kicked up a fuss complaining that it was disgusting that she would be stopped and questioned when picking up her elderly mother in her mother's car, then turned up a while later with said mother to demonstrate. It supposedly turned out later that she had driven to the care home where her mother lived and demanded that they wake the poor old woman up and get her dressed specifically so she could be paraded in front of the traffic warden... I don't know how true the story is, since I heard it second-hand - but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.


Still, the more problematic issue in the car park near where I work seems just to be people without badges parking in the disabled bays. If there were ever a shortage of disabled parking it would be far more effective to deal with the badgeless, at least around here.

(I parked in a disabled bay once myself - in my defence there was a ten-centimetre layer of compacted snow and ice over it and I could barely see the curb, let alone the lines on the tarmac; I only found out the next week when the ice had cleared!)


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2011)

Mis-use of disabled spaces and children's parking spaces are guaranteed to get me going and I have had an altercation with miserable selfish scroats abusing these spaces on more than one occasion. To be honest, I feel at times taking an iron bar to the kneecaps of those mis-using disabled spaces.


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## paultnl (22 Dec 2011)

My uncle was once rudely challenged for parking in a disabled space, his response was to remove his leg and hit the warden with it.


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## Max Power (22 Dec 2011)

My problem is not with "disabled" people using their facilities,its with relativly able bodied people being given badges, I was of the impression you had to be unable to walk a short distance unaided to qualify. I know of one person who can easily walk a couple of miles who has a disability car :roll: and another who helps out on the markets which involves lot of fetching and carrying and also has a disability car :shock: .
If they ever decide to monitor these shopping centers there will be a lot of cars going back :mrgreen:


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2011)

Thing is Alan that there will always be miserable selfish scrotes who will blag their way through life...be it benefit fraud to, as you say, getting a badge when they are not disabled.


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## woodstainwilly (22 Dec 2011)

In our town,parking is unlimited for badge holders. That is fine except
all the proscribed spaces are full by 8am each day and remain so until
around 5pm.This gives genuine disabled shoppers no alternative but 
to park on yellow lines and cause obstructions.
Not good me thinks.


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

woodstainwilly":3srr3sjy said:


> In our town,parking is unlimited for badge holders. That is fine except
> all the proscribed spaces are full by 8am each day and remain so until
> around 5pm.This gives genuine disabled shoppers no alternative but
> to park on yellow lines and cause obstructions.
> Not good me thinks.



Have you stopped to consider who maybe using then? How about disabled workers?


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

RogerS":3aap5e54 said:


> Thing is Alan that there will always be miserable selfish scrotes who will blag their way through life...be it benefit fraud to, as you say, getting a badge when they are not disabled.




Why do you assume theses been any fraud? The parking Alan talks about isn't controlled. Anyone can use any parking bay.


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2011)

Gary":2cntf32q said:


> RogerS":2cntf32q said:
> 
> 
> > Thing is Alan that there will always be miserable selfish scrotes who will blag their way through life...be it benefit fraud to, as you say, getting a badge when they are not disabled.
> ...



I don't assume anything. 

I was referring to Alan's post here  My problem is not with "disabled" people using their facilities,its with relativly able bodied people being given badges, I was of the impression you had to be unable to walk a short distance unaided to qualify. I know of one person who can easily walk a couple of miles who has a disability car and another who helps out on the markets which involves lot of fetching and carrying and also has a disability car 

And we all know that benefit fraud exists.


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## devonwoody (22 Dec 2011)

fella in our road works for a washing machine/dishwasher group (repair engineer and has a disabled badge, so anybody must be able to get one if you apply :wink:


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

RogerS":3ge0ly9a said:


> Gary":3ge0ly9a said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":3ge0ly9a said:
> ...




Yes, it does. But you don't need a badge to park in a shopping centre disabled bay.


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

devonwoody":1y98fbti said:


> fella in our road works for a washing machine/dishwasher group (repair engineer and has a disabled badge, so anybody must be able to get one if you apply :wink:


Not so, but you don't have to be on benefits to be disabled.


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2011)

Gary":311s8yi8 said:


> Yes, it does. But you don't need a badge to park in a shopping centre disabled bay.



Are you saying it's a free for all then? That anyone can park in those bays?


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

Yes.


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2011)

That's scandalous then. I must write to my MP :wink:


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

Why?

What can your MP do?

There are on parking orders to control such car parks. For parking they are essentially private places.


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2011)

Gary":2r6xxt3p said:


> Why?
> 
> What can your MP do?
> 
> There are on parking orders to control such car parks. For parking they are essentially private places.



L o o k a t t h e s m i i e y.


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## woodstainwilly (22 Dec 2011)

Gary":3dxbb22q said:


> woodstainwilly":3dxbb22q said:
> 
> 
> > In our town,parking is unlimited for badge holders. That is fine except
> ...


These parking bays are in a shopping zone. Not a car park for workers. Why should disabled 
workers be able to park free but able bodied drivers have to pay the long stay fees.
Unfair which ever way you look at it.


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

Why should disabled shoppers park free?

It's being stopped in a lot of places.


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## JakeS (22 Dec 2011)

Gary":1h0x3kf6 said:


> Yes.


Depends on the car park - the one next to my office is a privately-owned shopping centre car park but they have one of those big "terms and conditions of parking here" signs up - apparently to validate the £120 fine if you stay more than two hours - and one of the stipulations on that is that people parking in disabled bays must display a valid disabled badge, with the same £120 fine in effect. I imagine that car parks which don't have massive penalty fines in effect for the slightest offence probably don't have such a motivation to police their disabled bays...


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## theartfulbodger (22 Dec 2011)

Good advice from the money saving guru here:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclai ... ng-tickets

:ho2


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

JakeS":kkk17374 said:


> Gary":kkk17374 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes.
> ...



You don't have a badge and They invoice you for £120. You don't have to pay it as they can't legally enforce it.


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## chunkolini (22 Dec 2011)

Good grief.


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## Mark A (22 Dec 2011)

Not too long ago I was sat in the van in a council carpark opposite the disabled bays while I waited for someone. Right in front of me a Vauxhall Zafira pulled up in a disabled bay and the woman driving mustn't have been even 25. She got out her kids from the back, who then started to run between the cars and she ran after them. She was in no way disabled, but had a disabled parking permit? 

Our neighbour where we used to live cared for his disabled sister, who lived with him and his wife. I don't know how he swindled it, but both him and his wife had disability cars, as did his son. They even put thousands towards upgrading the cars! But.... the disabled sister was taken absolutely everywhere by taxi (of course, paid for by the kind taxpayers), and the cars where used by them for their own personal use. I don't know how they got away with it, but they did - for years and years.

Something's a tad wrong with the system.


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## Gary (22 Dec 2011)

Up to them what they spend their mobility payments on. Sadly it can be booze and fags.


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## doorframe (22 Dec 2011)

This is an emotional subject, guaranteed to stir up a hornet's nest. It would seem that whomever you speak to knows somebody that 'has', but doesn't appear to 'deserve' a Disabled badge. 

A good friend of mine is a haemophiliac. He is far fitter, stronger and able than me. He qualifies for a Disabled Badge and a Motorbility vehicle which he uses as his 'company car' (he is self employed). I thought there was a mileage limit but he does around 25,000 miles per annum. Has done for at least the last 10yrs. 

Don't know whether he 'deserves' it or not.

My Father died 7yrs ago. For his last 3yrs he could not walk more than 20yrds due to his heart condition and other medical conditions, and for years before that he couldn't walk much further. We tried for years to get him a Disabled Badge and/or Dissability Allowance. Turned down flat every time. Finally Age Concern got involved and although he still didn't get a Disabled Badge he did get Disability Allowance. Didn't help much as he died very soon after.

I think the 'system' could be fairer.

Roy


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## Digit (22 Dec 2011)

My wife has a 'Blue Badge' and receives a level of mobility allowance, the money is not 'compensation' for her limited mobilty but to fund the additional expenses incurred.
She is not visibly disabled in that she is not yet in a wheel chair nor relying on sticks, but steps/stairs she cannot manage, she walks slowly and cannot board a bus without help etc, so neither of us would say that somebody 'does not look disabled.'
But what will water both of us off is vehicles parked in a disabled bay that do not have a badge.

Roy.


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## JakeS (22 Dec 2011)

Gary":14hhza2s said:


> You don't have a badge and They invoice you for £120. You don't have to pay it as they can't legally enforce it.



I don't actually plan on parking in the shopping car park's disabled bays - even if I were that shameless, there's an office car park I can leave my car in which is surprisingly actually closer to the office!

But as it goes, my understanding of the matter is that this isn't the case at all. It's private land, and the public has no right to be there, with or without their car; they are admitting the individual on the condition that the individual agrees with their terms, and their terms state that if the individual leaves their car in the wrong place or for too long, they're liable for a penalty of £120. It's a contractual matter rather than a civil parking infringement, but if you brought your car onto the public land, the argument goes, you agreed to the contract. They have put the signs up very clearly at all entrances and throughout the car park, and the terms aren't really unreasonable; simply that you don't leave your car there more than 2 hours and don't park in the disabled bays without a badge, so from my (admittedly limited, I'm no lawyer) understanding, I don't see anything in particular which could render the contract void.

Or would you argue that there's no legal need to buy a ticket in pay-and-display car parks, or nothing wrong with not paying in a ticket-entry car park and demanding that they release your car which they have no right to trap behind mechanical barriers?


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

JakeS":6ijt8luj said:


> Gary":6ijt8luj said:
> 
> 
> > You don't have a badge and They invoice you for £120. You don't have to pay it as they can't legally enforce it.
> ...



Exactly its private land, the contract as you put it cannot be enforced. The only parking tickets you legally have to pay are those issued by the council or the police.


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## devonwoody (23 Dec 2011)

Or licensed clampers?


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## JakeS (23 Dec 2011)

Gary":31yxoec6 said:


> Exactly its private land, the contract as you put it cannot be enforced.



Could you explain why, please? It seems to me perfectly reasonable that I would have to agree to someone's terms and conditions to park on their land, and having agreed, I would be bound by contract law to keep up my end of the contract. Or is there some nuance of English law I'm missing which says that contracts are only valid when agreed to on public land?!

Along similar lines: if you're suggesting that there's some legal loophole which means that parking _in particular_ cannot be regulated unless on public land, are you also suggesting that it's perfectly legal to park in a pay-and-display car park without paying?


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## DIY Stew (23 Dec 2011)

My first post was removed by Mod, so I will try again but aim this at all the people who have expressed concern over who should have and who shouldn't have a Disability Parking Disc or Motability car.

Report them to the appropriate authorities instead of complaining here.

Stew


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

JakeS":3dc18m6q said:


> Gary":3dc18m6q said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly its private land, the contract as you put it cannot be enforced.
> ...




Google is your friend.


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## JakeS (23 Dec 2011)

Gary":2drnk4zs said:


> Google is your friend.



Google serves up a wealth of conflicting and mostly-unsourced information, and primarily seems to return sites in which people explain how to behave as weaselly as possible and make it as difficult as possible for the parking company to get money out of you until they give up. That doesn't prove it's not legal, it proves that they're a business and it doesn't make good business sense to spend £200 of office time recouping a £100 charge. (These sites also seem primarily aimed at people who have knowingly broken parking rules and want to get away with it, which makes their lack of sources seem more like "I want the law to be like this" rather than "the law is like this".)

But it also doesn't answer my question: if you can't explain _why_ you believe it to be perfectly legal to park as long as you like wherever you like on private land - why the law makes charges for parking illegal, which is what you seem to be claiming - then I shall have to assume it's because you don't understand it yourself. Which to my eyes, renders your advice pretty useless.

I don't see the huge legal difference between a car park that has a "if you stay over X hours you owe use Y" charge and a car park that has a charge of A for the first X hours and Y after that. The only notable differences are that A is 'free' in the first instance and the method of payment collection. Or are you genuinely trying to claim that pay-and-display car park charges aren't legal either?


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

Look at motorway services and supermarkets. Free for x hours then a charge. What a laugh only a mug would pay. Do your research and know the law, it saves you money.


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## newt (23 Dec 2011)

Gary":27ir6lgs said:


> Look at motorway services and supermarkets. Free for x hours then a charge. What a laugh only a mug would pay. Do your research and know the law, it saves you money.



It really hacks me off when plonkers/tight pineapples park in the local supermarket for free then shop somewhere else and I can't find a space to park to shop in the supermarket. Change the law and tow the plonkers car away.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

newt":fev9i9g2 said:


> Gary":fev9i9g2 said:
> 
> 
> > Look at motorway services and supermarkets. Free for x hours then a charge. What a laugh only a mug would pay. Do your research and know the law, it saves you money.
> ...




I find it funny that Asda have spent money on ANPR to control their parking and they can't enforce it. They are relying on the uneducated just to pay up.


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## newt (23 Dec 2011)

Gary":2hmy1d1s said:


> newt":2hmy1d1s said:
> 
> 
> > Gary":2hmy1d1s said:
> ...



I suppose you would find it funny if you are one of those that believe it should all be free, you may not be aware there are more than a couple of cars in existence.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

We pay enough to drive in the UK so why not get what you can for free?


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2011)

Gary":1f5kuml3 said:


> We pay enough to drive in the UK so why not get what you can for free?



Perhaps because some of us still maintain a vestige of personal integrity ?


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## newt (23 Dec 2011)

RogerS":3n81g3e9 said:


> Gary":3n81g3e9 said:
> 
> 
> > We pay enough to drive in the UK so why not get what you can for free?
> ...



Spot on Roger, there are a lot of free loaders. I know that some charges in private parks are excessive and should be reduced, but just imagine the situation if all parks were free, some may just have difficulty finding a space to park.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

If all car parks were free it would be easier to find a space. You wouldn't find queues for the cheaper ones.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

RogerS":3n1gfsj6 said:


> Gary":3n1gfsj6 said:
> 
> 
> > We pay enough to drive in the UK so why not get what you can for free?
> ...



Glad yet take pride in being ripped off. Very British.


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## newt (23 Dec 2011)

Gary":2rtofjzd said:


> RogerS":2rtofjzd said:
> 
> 
> > Gary":2rtofjzd said:
> ...



Why is paying a resonable charge for a car park being ripped off? So you think that if all car parks were free there would be more spaces, why does your theory not work where I live.


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## Digit (23 Dec 2011)

> We pay enough to drive in the UK so why not get what you can for free?



Because it is usually at the expense/inconvenience of someone else.

Roy.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

Digit":1bdm2inc said:


> > We pay enough to drive in the UK so why not get what you can for free?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you would rather pay to park and let someone else have a free space? 

Very good of you but I somehow doubt its true.


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## newt (23 Dec 2011)

Digit":3t6lxwyf said:


> > We pay enough to drive in the UK so why not get what you can for free?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Roy very true. We are IMO suffering a significant increase in this country of " I don't give a toss about anybody else", quite sad really.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2011)

Gary":1ycuf2no said:


> Digit":1ycuf2no said:
> 
> 
> > > We pay enough to drive in the UK so why not get what you can for free?
> ...




DO NOT FEED THE TROLL


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## Digit (23 Dec 2011)

> but I somehow doubt its true.



And you must have a very poor opinion of others, but, put it this way. Locally our disabled parking slots are usually easier to get into and nearer to shops etc and much wider than the normal slots. So frequently I will park in a 'normal' slot so as to leave the disabled for those who need it more than we do!
Thus I object to people with your attitude, and frequently minus a badge, then takaing the slot that I have left vacant!
Some of our car parks you pay for some are free. The ones you pay for pay the wages of the warden whose job it is to help keep the disabled slots free of people with your attitude!

Roy.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

Roy, I suggest you actually read this thread and not just cherry pick pieces out.


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## Digit (23 Dec 2011)

Thank you for the advise!

Roy.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

Digit":1vugjmp5 said:


> Thank you for the advise!
> 
> Roy.


No worries.

Maybe you'll show us where I said I parked in such bays. All I posted are the facts as they are. The shopping centre disabled bays hold the same standing as parent and child bays, which I do use. But I guess you'll pay I have an attitude for using them.


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## Digit (23 Dec 2011)

> Maybe you'll show us where I said I parked in such bays.



And I never said you did, I said, 'people with your attitude!'

Roy.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

Digit":x6ielnnb said:


> > Maybe you'll show us where I said I parked in such bays.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What attitude do you suggest I have?


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## Digit (23 Dec 2011)

I wouldn't know, I know only that which you have demonstrated, which to coin an old saw is, 'I care not for thy predicament Jack, pull up the ladder, I'm alright.' And from the other posts I would seem to have some support.

Roy.


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## Gary (23 Dec 2011)

Digit":25jubupl said:


> I wouldn't know, I know only that which you have demonstrated, which to coin an old saw is, 'I care not for thy predicament Jack, pull up the ladder, I'm alright.' And from the other posts I would seem to have some support.
> 
> Roy.



You really need to relax a bit at your time of life and not wind yourself up so much.


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## Digit (23 Dec 2011)

> You really need to relax a bit at your time of life and not wind yourself up so much.



And once again I thank you for your advise, but having reached the grand old age of 71 the words Grandmother and eggs comes to mind.

Roy.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2011)

Gary":16hc5fzk said:


> Digit":16hc5fzk said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for the advise!
> ...



Gary..not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse to try and provoke a response. So.....humour us...please can you say which of the situations below apply to you:

1) I have a valid disability sticker and park in shopping centre disabled bays
2) I do not have a valid disability sticker but still park in shopping centre disabled bays 
3) I have children and when they are with me I park in shopping centre parent and child bays
4) I do not have children with me but still park in shopping centre parent and child bays


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## studders (23 Dec 2011)

I'm a bit of a rebel when it comes to where I'll chain my bike up.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2011)

studders":1hwz3y9j said:


> I'm a bit of a rebel when it comes to where I'll chain my bike up.



I know what you mean, Studders


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## MickCheese (23 Dec 2011)

Gary

Earlier today I did a search of your past posts. I noticed you have been a member here for many years yet I didn't recognise your name as one who tried to offend. I just wondered if this was a recent thing.

I didn't find anything that suggested to me you were an antagonist but I have found a few of your recent postings rude, bordering on obnoxious it seems to me for no reason other then to provoke a response.

I started to post a response myself but thought I just don't need the agro so I just pressed the back button.

I have now re-read some of the things you have responded to and now have you down as a 'keyboard warrior', merely posting for the sake of it, you have had, as far as I am concerned, had nothing useful to say. Maybe I have not either but I would hope no one has found me rude.

When my children were small the child & parent spaces at the car parks were most useful. It allows you to get a small child from the car, keep hold of them and not smash the open door into the car next to you, it also allows you to avoid trying to control children in a confined car park and minimise the danger of them running off and maybe getting hurt. So I begrudgingly support child & parent bays now my children have grown up even though there seem to be far too many of them.

My mother has recently had a hip replaced and therefore has difficulty walking so has a disabled parking badge, it is most useful and in fact is the only way she can go shopping, visit the hospital / doctors or get to the opticians.

So, are you saying you use those bays? Do you only use them when you have children in the car? Are you a disabled badge holder?

But my question really is, why do I read your posts and think you are being so antagonistic?

Mick


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## studders (23 Dec 2011)

RogerS":2b6w6ep8 said:


> studders":2b6w6ep8 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a bit of a rebel when it comes to where I'll chain my bike up.
> ...


Really must get around to changing that saddle, it does chafe somewhat.


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## DIY Stew (24 Dec 2011)

So if you get a parking ticket in a private car park you dont need to pay it? 

So if I turn up at my local Asda and find there are no disabled parking spaces left and I see a car parked in a disabled space without showing a disabled parking disc, I can park in such a way as to block that vehicle in and if I get a ticket for not parking in a marked space I can just throw it away because Asda car park is private.

Please someone tell me I'm correct, it would make my day to do this because some lazy lowlife doesn't like to walk no more than 40 metres.

Stew


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## Digit (24 Dec 2011)

Or like the 'Big Man' do what many would like to do and find that you're nicked and scroat gets damages for his hurt feelings!

Roy.


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## Gary (24 Dec 2011)

DIY Stew":3osv2ybo said:


> So if you get a parking ticket in a private car park you dont need to pay it?
> 
> So if I turn up at my local Asda and find there are no disabled parking spaces left and I see a car parked in a disabled space without showing a disabled parking disc, I can park in such a way as to block that vehicle in and if I get a ticket for not parking in a marked space I can just throw it away because Asda car park is private.
> 
> ...



Yes, you're correct.


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## RogerS (24 Dec 2011)

Gary":qdram48s said:


> DIY Stew":qdram48s said:
> 
> 
> > So if you get a parking ticket in a private car park you dont need to pay it?
> ...



So come on, Gary. Are you going to answer the question I posed to you a few posts back?


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## Jake (24 Dec 2011)

Gary":3v30wgb4 said:


> JakeS":3v30wgb4 said:
> 
> 
> > Gary":3v30wgb4 said:
> ...



It's a contract and it can be enforced through the civil courts, although whether the full amount would be allowed *might* be a different question.

The legal issue is about the amount of the charge, and whether it reflects the damage suffered by breach of the contract, technically known as whether the amount is a "penalty" (not allowed) or is a genuine pre-estimate of loss (allowed). Personally and without any research, I doubt £100 or £150 would be a penalty. The company on whose land you are parking is allowed to police the terms on which you park on it, and breaches are going to cost it staff time and money and maybe third party tow costs etc. 

Exorbitant charges are a different matter, but I (as I say, without doing any research) doubt that a court would think that they are exorbitant if they are around the public highways equivalent.

On the other hand, is it worth a company pursuing you for £100-£150? That is where you have a very weaselly point. In pure economic terms, there are no costs awards in the small claims court, so it would cost them more to sue than they would get in damages for the breach of contract. But they have every right to sue on a point of principle if they wish. 

A lot of people might wish them well in that for some of the more selfish examples which have been cited in this thread.


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## studders (24 Dec 2011)

I recall, many Moons ago now, when I worked for Safeways on the night shift. Their car park was used by the customers of the local Pub and they made it very difficult, time consuming and very annoying when it came time for the, very big, lorries to deliver. 
There was a sign to the effect that the carpark would be locked at 9PM, though it never usually was. One night we did lock it, still full of cars from the Pub.
We had people banging on the doors demanding that we open the gates, we didn't and there was bugga all they could do about it. 
Some even tried the Police, who weren't the slightest bit interested.
Oh what fun.....


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## Digit (24 Dec 2011)

Many laws/rules are introduced retrospectively, to deal with the actions of people who place their own interests over and above the rest, Gary may well be correct that no action would be taken in the circumstances that he describes, but no action would be needed either with a little consideration.

Roy.


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## JakeS (25 Dec 2011)

Jake":kmhujs95 said:


> It's a contract and it can be enforced through the civil courts, although whether the full amount would be allowed *might* be a different question.
> 
> The legal issue is about the amount of the charge, and whether it reflects the damage suffered by breach of the contract, technically known as whether the amount is a "penalty" (not allowed) or is a genuine pre-estimate of loss (allowed). Personally and without any research, I doubt £100 or £150 would be a penalty.



This was more or less my understanding, too - the criteria from how it was explained to me were that a) the charge was a relatively realistic assessment of losses (punitive charges aren't allowed, but charges as assessments of maximum realistic losses are) and b) it was reasonable to pre-determine an estimate rather than determining post-factum what the actual losses had been. It seems to me that it's plausible to believe that both criteria would be considered to be met in this case, since it's not realistically possible for a supermarket to know whether anyone had been unable to shop that day because there weren't any free disabled spaces, and how much they may have spent. They might have lost nothing, but old Grandma Smith might have chosen that day to go and buy a new plasma TV!


The nearest I've seen any of the 'get out of your parking ticket' sites explain their parking-charges-are-illegal fantasy was to simply dismiss all charges levied as damages in contracts, on the grounds that just because there are _some_ circumstances under which monetary damages aren't legal, that must mean that _all_ instances of monetary damages must be illegal. So far as I can see they mostly just make it as difficult as possible for the parking people - essentially acting in bad faith - and consider it proof of their legal standing when the parking people give up.


Also: Digit: Amen to that!


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