# Meranti double driveway gates



## SJ_Wood (24 Mar 2021)

Hi All ,

First post and first ‘proper’ project.
Driveway gates in Meranti.

I had planned on finishing with an Osmo colour but now favouring a stain or oil to preserve the lovely wood look.

However been slightly alarmed regarding Meranti and its Oily nature?

so some early replies I had from paint/stain/oil manufactures suggest I should weather the gates pre-treatment for upto 4 months?

looking for advice please from a complete newbie!


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## Doug71 (24 Mar 2021)

Well first of all great looking gates, amazing results for a first proper project 

I haven't used Meranti for years, it's not actually that durable so make sure you use a decent product on them and keep on top of the maintenance.

The Sikkens range of stains are highly rated, I use their Cetol HLS as a basecoat and the Cetol Filter 7 as a topcoat.


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## SJ_Wood (24 Mar 2021)

Hi Doug, thanks have learnt a lot!

have been looking at the Sikkens range, seems popular


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## Jameshow (24 Mar 2021)

Nice! 

I'll just pop out and measure the distance between my gate posts! 

Cheers James


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## philip sewell (24 Mar 2021)

Be mindful of the gap between the t and g boards, they will swell quite a lot when they get wet. Nice gates though!


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## Fred48 (24 Mar 2021)

Lovely design. Wedged mortice and tenon joints as well.  Which side are the hinges going?


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## SJ_Wood (24 Mar 2021)

philip sewell said:


> Be mindful of the gap between the t and g boards, they will swell quite a lot when they get wet. Nice gates though!



thanks Philip!

they are not finally assembled yet , too cold for the glue.

the t & g are butted together but have a couple of mm each side/end to ‘float’ , won’t be glued as they are captive 4 sides

should be ok ?


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## SJ_Wood (24 Mar 2021)

Fred48 said:


> Lovely design. Wedged mortice and tenon joints as well.  Which side are the hinges going?



thanks !

this is a pair so swan necks meet in the middle at the high point

original design, bracing modified in the build;


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## Fred48 (25 Mar 2021)

Great. When I saw the photo i was not sure the diagonal support was positioned correctly. The drawing clearly shows that it is. 
There are a number of members on this forum with better knowledge than me on the next point. What glue are you going to use?


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## philip sewell (25 Mar 2021)

On the boards swelling. I would take an off cut, measure the width then dunk it in water for 24 hours . Measure the width again when it's swollen with water and that gives a worse case scenario of how wide the boards could expand (not that they will be submerged in water when they are in the gate but it gives you an idea of possible expansion) . I've seen boards bulging out in gates because not enough room was left for them to move so worth getting it right at this stage.


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## RobinBHM (25 Mar 2021)

SJ_Wood said:


> the t & g are butted together but have a couple of mm each side/end to ‘float



Lovely looking gates, great workmanship.

In regards to the t and g gap - 2 mm at each end won't be nearly enough. You will need at least 2mm per board, if not more. 

Personally I would make them captive with a pin in the middle of each.


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Lovely looking gates, great workmanship.
> 
> In regards to the t and g gap - 2 mm at each end won't be nearly enough. You will need at least 2mm per board, if not more.
> 
> Personally I would make them captive with a pin in the middle of each.



‘ok great advice thanks

so 2mm each? Doesn’t that spoil the look and point of t&g?

I could pin I guess , don't want it to be noticeable though from the front, maybe rear top/bottom angle pins?


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## Fred48 (25 Mar 2021)

Great idea re pinning each board. Pre drill in the 't ' and fix with a copper pin.


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

Fred48 said:


> Great. When I saw the photo i was not sure the diagonal support was positioned correctly. The drawing clearly shows that it is.
> There are a number of members on this forum with better knowledge than me on the next point. What glue are you going to use?


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## Fred48 (25 Mar 2021)

The glue looks good to me. 
The diagonal bracing is fitted with biscuits. I personally would strengthen the joint with 4" countersunk stainless steel screws, fitted from the bottom surface. If someone placed excessive force, for example by swinging on the gate without this screw fixture, you could have a problem.
If you do use screws you could hide the holes with a piece of maranti.


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## katellwood (25 Mar 2021)

Great job, my only concern would be the bracing. you are banking on the biscuit and glue to prevent any drop on the gates. in reality they should be notched into the top and middle rails to be totally effective.

this was my effort some years ago and have stood the test of time 

Driveway gates


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

Fred48 said:


> The glue looks good to me.
> The diagonal bracing is fitted with biscuits. I personally would strengthen the joint with 4" countersunk stainless steel screws, fitted from the bottom surface. If someone placed excessive force, for example by swinging on the gate without this screw fixture, you could have a problem.
> If you do use screws you could hide the holes with a piece of maranti.



yes good idea! the bracing was a concern still


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

katellwood said:


> Great job, my only concern would be the bracing. you are banking on the biscuit and glue to prevent any drop on the gates. in reality they should be notched into the top and middle rails to be totally effective.
> 
> this was my effort some years ago and have stood the test of time
> 
> ...



looks good!, I think you are right that would have been better!


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

katellwood said:


> Great job, my only concern would be the bracing. you are banking on the biscuit and glue to prevent any drop on the gates. in reality they should be notched into the top and middle rails to be totally effective.
> 
> this was my effort some years ago and have stood the test of time
> 
> ...



just read the build thread, brilliant project! love your workshop and tools!


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## Doug71 (25 Mar 2021)

I agree about needing a gap between the boards, they will swell up.

Glue wise I like PU something like this





__





45 Minute Polyurethane Wood Adhesive Gel | Wood Adhesives | Everbuild


Find quality adhesives with The Builders' Brand. Choose from domestic and construction grab adhesives for use with flooring, wood and more.




www.everbuild.co.uk





PU can get a bit messy if you are not used to it but it's 100% waterproof. The 502 stuff can start gripping quite quickly and make assembly a bit fraught if you don't get a move on, also it's only D3 rated, a D4 rated adhesive is more waterproof. Everbuild do a D4 pva type glue or Titebond 3 is D4 rated.

You say the boarding is captive on 4 sides, how have you finished the bottom of the boards, it's traditional to just let them fly over the front of the bottom rail so the water can run off?


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

Doug71 said:


> I agree about needing a gap between the boards, they will swell up.
> 
> Glue wise I like PU something like this
> 
> ...



Hi Doug,

ok may revisit the glue choice, thanks.

I needed a 'beefy' bottom rail due to the below ground automation I have, good point on the rain though, may need to put a bevel on it?
Shown here with the adapter plate, there will be a metal plate added to take some of the force;


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## furnace (25 Mar 2021)

SJ_Wood said:


> looks good!, I think you are right that would have been better!


Having just repaired a gate with a insufficient gap between the boards, and biscuits used for the diagonal braces I'd strongly suggest leaving a generous gap between them and bit use biscuits. In wet conditions (like UK winters) they'll swell and buckle if insufficient room is provided. Similarly, moisture will rot a beech biscuit over time, and there's insufficient structural integrity to accommodate the shearing load on those diagonal braces. I'd suggest notching them in accurately and allowing the mechanical strength of the wood rather then glue and biccies.
Great job. They look smashing.


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

furnace said:


> Having just repaired a gate with a insufficient gap between the boards, and biscuits used for the diagonal braces I'd strongly suggest leaving a generous gap between them and bit use biscuits. In wet conditions (like UK winters) they'll swell and buckle if insufficient room is provided. Similarly, moisture will rot a beech biscuit over time, and there's insufficient structural integrity to accommodate the shearing load on those diagonal braces. I'd suggest notching them in accurately and allowing the mechanical strength of the wood rather then glue and biccies.
> Great job. They look smashing.



thank you!

yes will defiantly revisit the bracing and notch in!


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## profchris (25 Mar 2021)

philip sewell said:


> On the boards swelling. I would take an off cut, measure the width then dunk it in water for 24 hours . Measure the width again when it's swollen with water and that gives a worse case scenario of how wide the boards could expand (not that they will be submerged in water when they are in the gate but it gives you an idea of possible expansion) . I've seen boards bulging out in gates because not enough room was left for them to move so worth getting it right at this stage.



It's really worth doing this!

I looked around for humidity expansion figures for meranti but they are hard to find - it appear that meranti might move around 50% more than mahogany. That suggests that a 10% increase in moisture content (seems plausible) could lead to 3.6% expansion.

Those boards look around 75 mm wide, so each one might expand by over 2.5mm. You have 12 boards there, so that's 30mm + in total!

Philip's method will let you measure the worst case scenario, and others have shown how to deal with it. I believe the main point of T&G is that you see the gap, but the tongue is still there so you can't see right through. That's exactly to allow for humidity changes.


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

profchris said:


> It's really worth doing this!
> 
> I looked around for humidity expansion figures for meranti but they are hard to find - it appear that meranti might move around 50% more than mahogany. That suggests that a 10% increase in moisture content (seems plausible) could lead to 3.6% expansion.
> 
> ...



scary ! think I will go with 2mm and 5mm each end.

could swap out the Meranti T&G for a better wood I guess?

had my head around flooring T&G where you don't gap (obv as internal) so glad you all put me right before too late!


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

Fred48 said:


> Great idea re pinning each board. Pre drill in the 't ' and fix with a copper pin.



so copper pin, any links please?


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## Fred48 (25 Mar 2021)

I should have written brass. 25 mms available on Amazon


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

Fred48 said:


> I should have written brass. 25 mms available on Amazon



right! that threw me thanks!


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## katellwood (25 Mar 2021)

Doug71 said:


> You say the boarding is captive on 4 sides, how have you finished the bottom of the boards, it's traditional to just let them fly over the front of the bottom rail so the water can run off?


Yes you are right Doug, however as a barefaced rail is narrower than the main frame (the thickness of the boards) as, no when they swell they are likely to bow the barefaced bottom rail DAMHINT


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## Sgian Dubh (25 Mar 2021)

profchris said:


> It's really worth doing this!
> I looked around for humidity expansion figures for meranti but they are hard to find - it appear that meranti might move around 50% more than mahogany. That suggests that a 10% increase in moisture content (seems plausible) could lead to 3.6% expansion.


White meranti has shrinkage factors of: Radial = 3% and Tangential of 6.6%
Yellow meranti's figures are: Radial = 3.4% and Tangential = 8%.
Mahogany (_Swietenia macrophylla_) has figures of: Radial = 3.7% and Tangential = 5.1%

So yes, Tangentially, yellow meranti's shrinkage/expansion factor is approximately 57% greater than mahogany's, but white meranti's shrinkage/expansion factor is about 30% greater. However, there are lots of species (60 - 70) sold as meranti of various shades of white, yellow and red, so each species could have different shrinkage/expansion factors.

I don't think we know for sure which meranti is being used here, and I don't know the figures for quite a number of the species within the _Shorea_ genus that get lumped together, as above. But the dumping of a sample in water idea is probably a pretty good one. Slainte.


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## SJ_Wood (25 Mar 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> White meranti has shrinkage factors of: Radial = 3% and Tangential of 6.6%
> Yellow meranti's figures are: Radial = 3.4% and Tangential = 8%.
> Mahogany (_Swietenia macrophylla_) has figures of: Radial = 3.7% and Tangential = 5.1%
> 
> ...



so this was on the order if it helps?






will let you know tomorrow on the wet test!


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## Lazurus (25 Mar 2021)

Loving this thread and WIP - great work.


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## johnnyb (25 Mar 2021)

I used sapele and used my flexible friend as a spacer. overwintering fine(I built them 12 months ago.) it's not that easy as some had warped a bit. also I used sadolin classic on the t and gs first.


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## Robbo60 (26 Mar 2021)

Great job. Been thinking about something similar so can I ask how you shaped the top piece? Why did you alter the diagonal brace from the original design. i.e. Corner to corner?
What wood would be best value for this project


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## SJ_Wood (26 Mar 2021)

Robbo60 said:


> Great job. Been thinking about something similar so can I ask how you shaped the top piece? Why did you alter the diagonal brace from the original design. i.e. Corner to corner?
> What wood would be best value for this project



thank you!

top piece was done using a template I made then simply using a band saw, others on here have used a router.

I changed the diagonal bracing as it would have been under 45 deg angle which would have compromised the support imo, also going to redesign further and notch in after advice on here.

the wood I used was expensive , should have sourced it from a ‘proper’ timber shop , mine came planned/treated.

not a expert by any means so will let others guide you on selection


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## Sgian Dubh (26 Mar 2021)

SJ_Wood said:


> so this was on the order if it helps?
> View attachment 106764


I don't have shrinkage percentages for dark red meranti, I'm afraid. But if you assume they're similar to the ones I provided for yellow meranti you should be safe enough. Anyway, you've got your sample soaking up water so that will give you a good idea of the absolute maximum expansion you might expect over its moisture content from when you started the experiment. Naturally, that won't tell you how much potential shrinkage is in those pieces because you don't seem to be undertaking a shrinkage test, i.e., drying the wood completely. Naturally, in use your wood is likely to only experience about 1/3+ of all the expansion and contraction it could because the MC is likely to vary anywhere between about 9 - 22% MC seasonally. In other words, it's highly unlikely to go through cycles varying from 0 - 30% (FSP) and above which would cause the wood to go through its full range of expansion and shrinkage in response to variations in MC. Slainte.


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## SJ_Wood (26 Mar 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I don't have shrinkage percentages for dark red meranti, I'm afraid. But if you assume they're similar to the ones I provided for yellow meranti you should be safe enough. Anyway, you've got your sample soaking up water so that will give you a good idea of the absolute maximum expansion you might expect over its moisture content from when you started the experiment. Naturally, that won't tell you how much potential shrinkage is in those pieces because you don't seem to be undertaking a shrinkage test, i.e., drying the wood completely. Naturally, in use your wood is likely to only experience about 1/3+ of all the expansion and contraction it could because the MC is likely to vary anywhere between about 9 - 22% MC seasonally. In other words, it's highly unlikely to go through cycles varying from 0 - 30% (FSP) and above which would cause the wood to go through its full range of expansion and shrinkage in response to variations in MC. Slainte.



ok so 24h in water;

120mm width now 122.5mm

Shrinkage test, just leave in the sun now?


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## profchris (26 Mar 2021)

I'd say you have your answer!

The maximum width your boards will reach is an extra 2.5mm. In practice they'll never get that wet , so you could allow a little less. That might mean:

2.5 mm per board to be absolutely safe

2mm per board should be fairly safe.

1.5mm per board is being brave.

If it were me, I'd line up 2 or 3 boards at each spacing and stare at them. Then I'd build it at the widest spacing I felt looked acceptable.


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## SJ_Wood (26 Mar 2021)

profchris said:


> I'd say you have your answer!
> 
> The maximum width your boards will reach is an extra 2.5mm. In practice they'll never get that wet , so you could allow a little less. That might mean:
> 
> ...



agreed! , already cut my spacers at 2mm so committed !


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## Sgian Dubh (27 Mar 2021)

SJ_Wood said:


> ok so 24h in water;
> Shrinkage test, just leave in the sun now?


To be honest, I think you have all the information you need. Your boards are never going to experience the full range of potential movement. As profchris has suggested, allowing approximately 2 - 3 mm per board for shrinkage and expansion should cover it.

But if you really want to dig around and explore a bit further into how wood reacts to water as it's adsorbed and desorbed, you *might look here. *It's only a start into the fascinating world of timber technology (well, fascinating to me anyway), and perhaps not directly relevant to what you're doing now, but you may find it of interest. Slainte.


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## SJ_Wood (27 Mar 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> To be honest, I think you have all the information you need. Your boards are never going to experience the full range of potential movement. As profchris has suggested, allowing approximately 2 - 3 mm per board for shrinkage and expansion should cover it.
> 
> But if you really want to dig around and explore a bit further into how wood reacts to water as it's adsorbed and desorbed, you *might look here. *It's only a start into the fascinating world of timber technology (well, fascinating to me anyway), and perhaps not directly relevant to what you're doing now, but you may find it of interest. Slainte.



yes think will go with 2mm.

will take a look at that link thanks, it’s a world I have only just started looking into!


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## SJ_Wood (27 Mar 2021)

Ok happy with 2mm look, onward !!


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## SJ_Wood (28 Mar 2021)

Quick question on this , thinking of adding Dowels to the joints and don’t have the tools to make.

so will have to buy, which wood to use and best size ?

something like this ?






10 Pack of 16mm Hardwood Wooden Dowels - 60cm Long : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools


Shop 10 Pack of 16mm Hardwood Wooden Dowels - 60cm Long. Free delivery on eligible orders of £20 or more.



www.amazon.co.uk


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## SJ_Wood (9 Apr 2021)

Made my own dowels in the end


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## SJ_Wood (9 Apr 2021)




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## SJ_Wood (10 Apr 2021)

And modified the bracing


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## Fred48 (10 Apr 2021)

Looking good


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## SJ_Wood (30 Apr 2021)

Finally hung!
will weather for 10/12 weeks now before I decide on treatment!


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## Fred48 (30 Apr 2021)

They look brilliant. A quality job.


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## SJ_Wood (6 Sep 2021)

Hi guys,

just an update on this, been left to weather for a while now and just wondering what to do pre winter regarding any sort of treatment.
Apart from some staining(?) and bird rubbish they seem ok, tempted to clean and leave alaone.

would appreciate your thoughts?


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## MARK.B. (6 Sep 2021)

Nice looking pair


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## johnnyb (6 Sep 2021)

use a good quality oil first to suck into the bits you've not treated. in fact start with a clear wood preserver. meranti seems to have a hugely open grain.


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