# New boiler



## devonwoody (11 Sep 2010)

Might have to consider a new boiler for C/H and hot water.

Can the new bolilers (without tank) be fitted at ground level or have they got to be a certain height off the floor?We are a bungalow.


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## Lons (11 Sep 2010)

Hi DW

When you say "without tank" do you mean you want a combi boiler with small built in tank and get rid of your existing hw cylinder or standard boiler and keep the cylinder?

You can get both as either wall or floor mounting models and there can be a variety of fitting positions dependant upon flue requirements and fuel type as well as heat output - dependant on number of radiators etc..

New boilers must now be "condensing" design and high efficiency. Combi boilers (in very simple terms) are like a large instant water heater with a reserve tank built in so you mostly heat only what you are using.

Bob


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## devonwoody (11 Sep 2010)

Thanks Lons for your help. So it has got to be a condensing boiler but it can be floor standing.

To keep an airing cupboard, I suppose a radiator is then fitted?


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## dannykaye (11 Sep 2010)

our new combi is in a garage about 4' off the floor


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## loftyhermes (11 Sep 2010)

We live in a bungalow and our combi boiler is in the loft, I think you can have it fitted almost anywhere but try to have it as close to the taps as you can, we can run off almost 2 gallons before hot water comes out.


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## jasonB (11 Sep 2010)

You can also mound a wall boiler at low level provided you can get the flue out OK so don't limit your choice to floor mounted ones

Jason


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## wobblycogs (11 Sep 2010)

We had a new boiler fitted a short while back and talked over stacks of possible fitting locations and options with our plumbers. Seems boilers can be fitted just about anywhere now as long as there is space to hang it on the wall (or mount it on the floor if you go for that style). You will need some space around the boiler but if you are replacing a 20 year old boiler the new one will almost certainly be smaller and therefore fit in the gap left. 

The only problem might be the flue. Condensing boilers rely on a fan to push the flue gasses out as they are too cool to rise efficiently on their own and there are strict limits on the length of the flue pipe and the number and type of bends it can have. Condensing boilers also require a drain for the condensate which, I think, has to drain outside in case flue gasses enter it.


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## Dibs-h (11 Sep 2010)

wobblycogs":9lxwrykc said:


> Condensing boilers also require a drain for the condensate which, I think, has to drain outside in case flue gasses enter it.



The condensate is acidic hence it is required to be drained - there is nothing stopping you from having the drain piping inside and then it going outside at ground level, if you boiler is in the loft or something. That would stop the condensate pipe from freezing over in a bad cold spell - which happened last time round to loads of folk.

Dibs


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## RogerS (11 Sep 2010)

dw...if you had an old-style CH boiler with an expansion tank in the loft and you've had it for a long time, then if you go down the combi route be prepared. Be very prepared for leaks in your ch system which will now be cranked up to mains pressure. Some of those leaks will be unseen. Hidden behind walls and underneath floors. The most hassle free route is to replace with a condensing normal boiler. But if you live in a hard water area then consider replacing your hot water tank.


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## Eric The Viking (11 Sep 2010)

RogerS":gtw8ho9d said:


> he most hassle free route is to replace with a condensing normal boiler.



What eee said.

We have a somewhat 'exotic' system, of solar heating plus a condensing 'system' boiler (it's the trade term for ornery ones), and it's all installed in a side attic on the top floor. There is a separate pressurised hot water tank. I don't think there's a limit to how low you can have them on the inside wall (ours is almost at floor level), BUT the pipes enter and leave at the bottom usually, so fitting them low down is a PITA for access later. Flues can be ducted quite long distances, both horizontally and vertically, they're also pretty narrow, so you can run one inside an old flue from an earlier boiler if you want to. As mentioned, you do have to have a drain nearby, to deal with the acidic condensate, but ours just comes out at the eaves of the house and drains into the plastic gutter - it was a bit of a fiddle to organise but it works fine.

You can either put a rad in the airing cupboard, or a hot water tank as before. You shouldn't need a header tank in the attic, which is a good thing on balance. 

I wouldn't worry unduly about pressurizing the heating system: it will work fine as low as 1.5bar, it's never at mains pressure, and leak sealer (goes in the water along with the corrosion proofer) will deal with small leaks. You can see how much water is being lost by the pressure gauge on the boiler. If the system is <20 years old it ought to be OK. 

The hot water will be pressurised if you have a combi, as will the bath cold tap (if you take the cold water header tank out), but that still shouldn't be more than 3bar, and you can dial that down on most pressure reducers. Combis do usually need a pressurised cold feed though to work correctly. If you fit a 'system' boiler, the hot water can be at the same pressure it is now.

My only concern would be that your water probably comes from Dartmoor or Exmoor, and is thus acidic. The pipes don't fur-up like ours do, but they do corrode, so I'd give all brass fittings a careful check - they lose the zinc and go cheese-like in the wrong conditions ('de-zincification'), usually due to electrolytic corrosion. Your plumber ought to give you some idea of the health of the rest of the system, and can pressure-test (using air) to check for leaks. I think Roger mentioned replacing the tank: in hard water they fill with sludge, and in soft water they corrode - I'd do yours if you're keeping that system.

Our house still has some 30-year-old rads, thermostats and piping in it, which are fine. If yours is old enough to have 1/2" and 3/4 piping instead of 15mm & 22, there might be a problem, but that would date it around 1970 or earlier.

Sadly, boilers are no longer a DIY job, so you probably have to budget at least £2,000 for boiler+fittings+labour (and that's optimistic). There are grants for eco-friendly new boilers though.

One final tip: find out which brand of boiler the local plumbers prefer. The modern ones need regular servicing and spares, and parts can cost £loads (I'd avoid Vaillant for that reason alone - ours has been horribly expensive already, and Vaillant's customer support is rubbish as far as I can tell). If you get a popular one, chances are spares will be available.

HTH,

E. (I'm only a DIY plumber but I've been doing it for 30 years, and have put in combis in the past, when it was legal to DIY it).


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## wobblycogs (11 Sep 2010)

The system we had fitted recently is essentially the same as the one Eric describes. We went with a Worcester-Bosch boiler on the recommendation of our plumbers and many good reviews. It was a little more expensive than most but the boiler was / is one of the most efficient around and the customer service has been excellent.

If you are worried about corrosion you can plumb most of the heating system in plastic push fit (we use JG SpeedFit - good joints every time). The only bit that can't be plastic is right up near the boiler, first 1.5m of pipe IIRC.


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## sparkymarky (11 Sep 2010)

assuming that you require a gas boiler, a worcester-bosch cdi combi boiler is generally one of the best combi boilers around.
as a boiler engineer myself and a plumber for over 7 years, i would steer clear of the combi boiler option. i also live in a bunglow, my system is a normal heat only boiler, linked to a pressurised 180l hot water cylinder which is sited in my loft (boiler in the utility). this gives mains power hot water (no need for a shower pump) with 180l stored hot water and a emersion back up. threrfore you will never be without hot water, where as with a combi when breaks down you are left with nothing.


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## Lons (11 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":21e0v2nc said:


> Thanks Lons for your help. So it has got to be a condensing boiler but it can be floor standing.
> 
> To keep an airing cupboard, I suppose a radiator is then fitted?



Hi DW

I hope I haven't confused you.

A combi boiler is very different from a std ch condensing boiler. the condensing bit is just the efficiency technology and it produces an acidic fluid which must be drained away.

A combi system does not use a HW cylinder as it heats a small reserve held in a small tank within the boiler casing and heats more on demand. therefore if you need an airing cupboard you would need warm pipes or small rad fitted there.

If you opt for a standard replacement condensing boiler then your hw cylinder would remain in use.

Benefits of a combi are that it doesn't heat up a full tank but the downside is if you have a large bath or big family you may run short of hot water. Also a combi system offers powerfull showering and good hw pressure without shower pumps but I've seen a number of system leaks following replacement which I assume is down to increased pressure.

My personal preference is for a standard system and I replaced mine a couple of years ago with a Worcester Bosch boiler (oil as we've no gas).

As an aside, I don't think modern boilers are robust and certainly don't seem to last long  

Bob


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## devonwoody (12 Sep 2010)

Many thank to all contributors above.

Our present system is 26 years old, it works for us, we have to turn the heating down many evenings in the winter because we get too warm.
However, the three way motor valve broke down last spring and I haven't repaired it yet, radiators are looking tatty, wondering whether to soldier on or look at the costs before Ossy gets his pen out. 

So a condensing boiler is what? our present boiler has the flue outlet on an outside wall, also the air inlet in the same grill. It is also fitted into our kitchen units at floor level and I don't want a new kitchen as well. Will a condensing boiler just pop into the existing boiler cupboard do you think?


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## devonwoody (12 Sep 2010)

Looking on the web for a normal condensing boiler (suggested by RogerS above)

A bit confused, can you direct me to a link on the web for a NORMAL condensing boiler model please.
All links I see mention the word combi.


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## RogerS (12 Sep 2010)

DW...go here then click on Find a Boiler

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/homeow ... -a-product

Personally I like Warmflow boilers. http://www.warmflow.co.uk/pdf/Gas_Boiler_Brochure.pdf

You need a 'system' boiler.

Lons makes a very good point re what boilers are in vogue locally.

Not sure if you are gas or oil. Down our way, OFTEC (ie oil) qualified engineers are rare.


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## devonwoody (12 Sep 2010)

Thanks again RogerS.
Are you suggesting I consider this model, the 12i, it has a condensating pipe and mentions a heating tank in cupboard?

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/homeow ... se+boilers


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## RogerS (12 Sep 2010)

No I'm not suggesting any of them because I'm not an expert in this field. Just trying to point you in the vaguely right direction as far as I am able. Why not get a couple of local reputable ch engineers to advise/quote?


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## devonwoody (12 Sep 2010)

Yes that is what is going to happen, but wanting to know what the different independent options are, because of lack of knowledge on these new fangled things.

Now going out to my workshop and have a tidy up and blow out, might even take some pictures for a change. :wink:


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## Deejay (12 Sep 2010)

Morning DW

This might help ...

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Hom ... ing-boiler

Cheers

Dave


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## Eric The Viking (12 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":1imjxl52 said:


> Many thank to all contributors above.
> 
> Our present system is 26 years old, it works for us, we have to turn the heating down many evenings in the winter because we get too warm.



Good points: The rads will be heavy steel sheet & thus probably good for another 30 years. They're not hugely efficient, in that they don't transfer a lot of heat (they don't wast energy either!), but they are solid. The pipe will be thicker too. 


Bad points: Might be imperial sized pipe (the fittings are still imperial threads even today, around much of the world!). I _would_ worry about de-zincification, especially anywhere subject to cold and damp in the summer (spare room, etc.). Take great care undoing fittings, as apparently solid rad valves (especially, as they're next to steel) can just squish when a Stillson wrench is applied. 

Checking for corrosion: 

If you've had corrosion proofer in the system (Fernox, back then), it's probably fine. When the system is on, feel the bottom centre of big rads. If it's stone cold after a few minutes running (the top should be very hot), the bottom tube is full of sludge, blocking the flow. 

Whilst this is corrosion, it's probably not terminal. With care you can restore any lost efficiency by removing the radiators and flushing them over a drain in the garden. I use a jet-wash with a drain cleaning attachment. On single rads, the 'bullet' will pass through the top and bottom tubes, scouring rust and crud away as it goes. It can be harder with double ones, depending on the design, but still do-able. The physical shape of modern rads makes this almost impossible.

A good corrosion test in two parts: 

(1) Draw off a jam-jar full of circulating water from the drain cock (usually near the boiler, but close to the lowest point on the system).
Check for black (bad) or brown sludge (worse). There will always be some, but it should settle out fairly quickly. If it's like soup the system needs flushing completely before doing anything major to it, and that process may (will) reveal leaks.

(2) Put a big, degreased wire nail in said jam-jar of soup, leave it standing on a sunny windowsill for a week or two with the top open (corrosion needs oxygen to go 'well') and observe: if the nail rusts your corrosion proofer is absent or too diluted, and the system almost certainly corroded internally. If it doesn't, it's probably fine (but see brass fittings)



> However, the three way motor valve broke down last spring and I haven't repaired it yet, radiators are looking tatty, wondering whether to soldier on or look at the costs before Ossy gets his pen out.



They do it all the time. The mechanics of 2-way and 3-way valves are truly dreadful - a stepper motor+gearbox stalled against a spring with limit microswitches to tell the controller where it's 'pointing'. Replacements are pretty cheap, around £12-15, and for big-name valves (Honeywell, Danfoss, etc.) you can get the motor head separately. You might be able to swap the motor head without replacing the valve body. If it's not leaking, that's a cheap fix.



> so a condensing boiler is what? our present boiler has the flue outlet on an outside wall, also the air inlet in the same grill. It is also fitted into our kitchen units at floor level and I don't want a new kitchen as well. Will a condensing boiler just pop into the existing boiler cupboard do you think?



It will physically fit - new boilers are more compact - but the flue may not line up, and you may need to make a smaller hole above the 'balanced flue' you presently have. Modern flues are not only small, but the exhaust from a condensing boiler is CO2 and water at low temperatures, so they don't really need any safety grille round them. You can easily make the necessary hole with a diamond core drill, and brick up the old square one.

"Condensing" means having two or three heat-exchangers in series, so that the last tiny bit of heat from the gas is used to heat the water. The condensing part is removing the latent heat of the steam produced, by condensing it to water ("cloud") inside the boiler before it leaves the flue. It's why you see a plume coming from the things in cold weather - it's the condensed steam as a cloud. A by-product of the process is an acidic soup caused by (I think) the formation of carbonic acid and residual amounts of sulphur compounds (from the fuel gas), which is what has to be separately drained away from the 'condensate trap.'

A final thought: the new boiler technologies are characterised by two things: lots of narrow pipework, & complex control systems. If fitting a new boiler to an old system, your plumber should thoroughly flush the system before and after installation. The first gets rid of old sludge, and the second gets rid of copper filings, soldering fluxes, etc. 

Old boilers didn't care much about sludge - it made the pumps fail occasionally, but otherwise didn't do a lot of harm. On new boilers, sludge can cause expensive early failures. We fitted one of these, and it's brilliant (not cheap, but less than two hours of my plumber's time). They only really work _after_ the system has been cleaned, but work they most certainly do!

HTH,

E.


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## devonwoody (12 Sep 2010)

Many thanks above for time and advice.
I understand much more about this subject with the information given.

I will get some quotes in and also have much more knowledge in what is being discussed.


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## RogerS (12 Sep 2010)

dw...forgot to say that over on AskTheTrades there seem to be more problems with Baxi then any other make.


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## Digit (12 Sep 2010)

Reading your posts DW it sounds as though you have no room stat for temp control, is that correct?

Roy.


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## devonwoody (13 Sep 2010)

Digit":30s3suvz said:


> Reading your posts DW it sounds as though you have no room stat for temp control, is that correct?
> 
> Roy.



Correct digit, I think the information at the time of installation was that the boiler setting would be the best way of controlling output.
We are detached with four very exposed external outlooks and one temperature stat might not suit other rooms.
Rad.stats were not economical to fit at the time 26 years ago either.


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## Lons (13 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":1bt8qvus said:


> Digit":1bt8qvus said:
> 
> 
> > Reading your posts DW it sounds as though you have no room stat for temp control, is that correct?
> ...



DW

If you end up with a whole new system (you'll need deep pockets), they will put in a room stat. / hw cylinder stat (if you retain the cylinder), and trvs to all rads, except possibly one as a bypass. (don't know if that's still good practice). :? 

Assuming you've taken advantage of cheap loft and wall insulation deals, you will save a surprising amout of money on heating.

Or....discard all those layers of sweaters :lol: :lol: 

cheers

Bob


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## Digit (13 Sep 2010)

Wot 'e said DW, in fact I doubt that you could run a condensing boiler without a room stat. Modern stats are available with battery power and a radio link to the boiler so no damage to your decorations need occur.

Roy.


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## Eric The Viking (13 Sep 2010)

Digit":1ekfjcai said:


> Wot 'e said DW, in fact I doubt that you could run a condensing boiler without a room stat.



I do. If you have rad stats, I can't see what purpose they serve.


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## wobblycogs (13 Sep 2010)

AIUI if you have passive rad stats - e.g. they control flow to the radiator rather than the boiler itself - then a main room sensor is necessary to control the firing of the boiler. My guess is that as you don't have a room stat your boiler is stopping firing because the flow or return water temperature is at the maximum allowed value. I believe building regs now require both a room stat and radiator valves minimum for a new installation.


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## Dibs-h (13 Sep 2010)

Eric The Viking":xg4l7iv9 said:


> Digit":xg4l7iv9 said:
> 
> 
> > Wot 'e said DW, in fact I doubt that you could run a condensing boiler without a room stat.
> ...



We don't have one either and have no issues with the system.


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## Digit (13 Sep 2010)

I'll re-phrase my comment, it's not a good idea to run without a room stat.
When the last TRC shuts down the boiler will recirc the water through its own, or an external by-pass loop, if fitted, till its own internal stat shuts it down.

Roy.


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## Digit (13 Sep 2010)

Do you have a condensing boiler Dibs?

Roy.


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## Dibs-h (13 Sep 2010)

Digit":1tz1frzf said:


> Do you have a condensing boiler Dibs?
> 
> Roy.



Yep. All the rads are on TRV's except one in the bathroom which isn't and is set about 1/2 all the time.

Will be seeing my CH chum tonight so will be bringing it up.


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## sparkymarky (13 Sep 2010)

room stats should be fitted in a room with no TRV. this in theory would make the stat shut down the CH system and keeping the house at the design temperature, thus preventing any other rooms being cold, however in my experience this doesn`t work, the stat shuts down and you`re left in a cold room.
easy way to solve this is to get a good wireless room thermostat (i`ve fitted quite a few of this one http://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/honey ... -hc60-set/) then not fix it to any walls but just carry it into the rooms that you are in throughout the day.
this will then provide full boiler interlock shutting the system ch pump down saving you electric and also stop the heat being needlessly wasted by being circulated, it would also stop the boiler short cycling (firing on and off lots) witch can shorten the life of you`re boiler.


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## wobblycogs (13 Sep 2010)

The heating system we're installing is built around these things http://www.screwfix.com/prods/79143...Guest-JGSTAT-Programmable-Room-Thermostat-12V. Each room, or smallish group of rooms, has one of these fitted and it's wired back to a fancy control box using (basically) Cat5e network cable. It's quite an expensive system to fit but in a large or poorly insulated house* it save money by allowing you to heat only those rooms that you are occupying. The single room heating is achieved by having each room stat control a separate actuator on a manifold like this: http://www.screwfix.com/prods/77395...nderfloor-Heating/JG-Speedfit-6-Port-Manifold. So far we have done all the plumbing an wiring ourselves with the exception of fitting the boiler and sealed hot water tank - never again .

* like ours which has solid brick walls and single glazing - and because it's listed we can't do anything about the windows, sigh.


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## Digit (13 Sep 2010)

One other point DW, if you are much into showering I would give combis a miss, same again if you're in a hard water area.

Roy.


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## Eric The Viking (13 Sep 2010)

Digit":1qfpkxh3 said:


> One other point DW, if you are much into showering I would give combis a miss, same again if you're in a hard water area.
> 
> Roy.



They're certainly slow filling baths. They should also have descalers fitted on the cold feed (for the domestic hot water), unless you're in a very soft water area. Fernox do one intended for the porpoise, which uses consumable softener crystals. If you don't do this, they tend to lunch the hot water diverter valve in short order, which is *really* expensive to repair. 

Aside: the lack of hot water flow is why we have a pressurised DHW tank. Because it's bang next to the boiler it works bit like a combi, but with a far better flow rate. 

Incidentally, I can't see the point of individual room thermostats and separate solenoid valves. It all sounds far too complex when you'd get the same result from stats on the relevant rads. They're pretty reliable really, and need no power nor wiring. I suppose you can put the whole lot on timers and/or run it from a simple command centre:







D'oh! Why didn't I spot that (homer)


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## wobblycogs (13 Sep 2010)

Separate room stats are great if, like me, you work from home. I can turn on the heating for just my office and leave the rest of the house just ticking over which saves a ton of power compared to a more standard set up. Yes, I suppose you could get the same effect with passive radiator stats but it would mean going round to every room turning them up and down twice a day. 

The room stat I linked too learns the heating curve of the room too. If, for example, you set it to make your bedroom 18degC at 9:30pm over the course of a few days it'll learn that it needs to start heating the room at about 8:30 say if the temperature is currently 15degC.

It's certainly not a system for everyone at the moment as it's still too expensive but I would be surprised if we didn't see houses being built with this type of system in a few years.


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## Lons (14 Sep 2010)

> The room stat I linked too learns the heating curve of the room too. If, for example, you set it to make your bedroom 18degC at 9:30pm over the course of a few days it'll learn that it needs to start heating the room at about 8:30 say if the temperature is currently 15degC.



Gotta get me one of those 8) 

Does it overide the missus p****** about with the thermostat every ten minutes and mucking up the status quo?

Bob


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## wobblycogs (14 Sep 2010)

You can install a separate master control box that can be used to lock all the other thermostats and can be password protected. If you are feeling really rich you can even get a box that lets you control your heating over the web or even by SMS. The latter two options are more designed for small hotels (or the mega-rich) though. 

We saw the system at the house and home building show at the NEC, as we had to completely wire and plumb the house it made sense to fit it. You can normally pick up free tickets for the show, it's worth heading along if you like your building and gadgets.


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## RogerS (14 Sep 2010)

Lons":11xnicq8 said:


> > The room stat I linked too learns the heating curve of the room too. If, for example, you set it to make your bedroom 18degC at 9:30pm over the course of a few days it'll learn that it needs to start heating the room at about 8:30 say if the temperature is currently 15degC.
> 
> 
> 
> ......



I designed and build one of those - microprocessor based - about 30+ years ago [/smug git mode]. Pity Dragons' Den wasn't around then...or that I had the faintest idea about sales and marketing.


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## Lons (14 Sep 2010)

RogerS":2py6faju said:


> I designed and build one of those - microprocessor based - about 30+ years ago [/smug git mode]. Pity Dragons' Den wasn't around then...or that I had the faintest idea about sales and marketing.



So............... Assuming you've got a partner Roger, has it stopped them constantly turning the thermostat up / down?

I recon I could just about get away with it by saying the stat must be bust (she isn't technically minded) :wink: Wouldn't half save me some frustration ](*,) - unless she found out  (hammer) 

Bob


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## RogerS (14 Sep 2010)

Lons":epe7amo3 said:


> RogerS":epe7amo3 said:
> 
> 
> > I designed and build one of those - microprocessor based - about 30+ years ago [/smug git mode]. Pity Dragons' Den wasn't around then...or that I had the faintest idea about sales and marketing.
> ...



Yup


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## Lons (15 Sep 2010)

RogerS":1a575fvs said:


> Lons":1a575fvs said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":1a575fvs said:
> ...



Love it :lol: It'sw on my "secret" to do list :wink:


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## RogerS (15 Sep 2010)

There is a much easier way, Bob. Just give her a control...tell her it's a wireless one...only it isn't..nor connected... :twisted:


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## Lons (15 Sep 2010)

RogerS":1wnh92r6 said:


> There is a much easier way, Bob. Just give her a control...tell her it's a wireless one...only it isn't..nor connected... :twisted:



Actually it's too late - I'm stuffed :shock: 

I was making a coffee and left my last post on screen - you guessed :!: - she read it -  - now wants to know what the rest of the "secret" list is :roll: 

Luckily her memory is cr** so hopefully in a week or two.....................

cheers Bob


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## RogerS (18 Sep 2010)

Not sure what your current thinking is, dw, but a couple of other points re combi spring to mind. Not sure if they have been mentioned.

1) Have you got sufficient water flow from your mains. Not the same thing as pressure.

2) When your combi stops working so does all your hot water as you won't have an immersion heater unless.....

3) with some combis eg warmflow you can retrofit them into an existing system and still keep your hot water cylinder etc. Just that the rads are unpressured. I considered this when I put in the new boiler so that i could feed the downstairs hot water (kitchen and utiiity) from the combi directly as these pipes were furthest from the hot water cylinder. In the end I went for a secondary return and in hindsight I should have paid the extra and gone for the combi hybrid.


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## devonwoody (19 Sep 2010)

Havent got any quotes in yet.

Turned the threeway valve by hand yesterday to get the radiators on stream and that took some leverage on the axle to turn. (Honeywell motor works but not enough puff to turn the valve) 
Must be corroded up. 
assuming that a new system I would have to wait some months before done should I refresh the system water with some Fernox or something?


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## matt (19 Sep 2010)

If it's not already been mentioned, and you do decide to install a room stat... Consider a programmable one. We have one that allows us to program the temp for 6 time periods for each day of the week. 

(Oh, and we've used it with both normal valves and subsequently TRVs. The latter allows us to refine the temp at room level and works very well).


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## RogerM (19 Sep 2010)

Eric The Viking":1ffyg1io said:


> Digit":1ffyg1io said:
> 
> 
> > Wot 'e said DW, in fact I doubt that you could run a condensing boiler without a room stat.
> ...



A vital one - it stops the boiler cycling. Once the rad stats are closed because the room temperatures are up to the desired setting, hot water returns to the boiler without passing through the rads and the boiler switches off. If the rooms stay up to temperature, the water in the boiler will cool until the boiler turns on again and cycles water through the system until it gets back to the boiler and turns it off again.

We replaced an old oil fired boiler about 3 years ago with a Worcester Bosch oil fired condensing boiler. At the same time we divided the radiator circuits so that the upstairs and downstairs are on separate circuits, each with a separate time controller and room stat. So, in winter the downstairs comes on at about 5pm but upstairs only comes on at about 10pm. The bedrooms are also set to a lower temperature. We also added an additional 6ins of loft insulation to the existing 4 inches.

Overall result has been to halve our oil consumption - which effectively means that we are spending no more on heating than we were 5 years ago.


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## devonwoody (19 Sep 2010)

10" of loft insulation would never work for us because we use our loft for storage changing contents summer and winter etc.


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## RogerM (19 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":1mvjnb93 said:


> 10" of loft insulation would never work for us because we use our loft for storage changing contents summer and winter etc.



Not a problem DW. Originally we had loose boarding across the 6" joists with 4" of insulation underneath. Obviously increasing the insulation to 10" raised the level to 4" above the joists, so I had to lift the boarding, add additional joists across the existing ones and lay the additional insulation between the new joists. Then I just boarded over the new joists. Our loft is very full, so I did one end at a time and just moved stuff from one end to the other as needed. Cost in our 4 bed house was £200 for additional insulation and £200 for additional 6" joists and boarding. Paid for itself in no time. 

Not only has it cut our fuel costs, but it's made the bedrooms far more temperature stable. As I understand it you live in a bungalow? I would have thought that added insulation would make the benefits even more desirable in a bungalow.


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## devonwoody (19 Sep 2010)

Roger your setup sound great.

My loft has a 200sq.ft model railway installed and could not cope with the changes you have made. Although the railway is now only a scenic attraction to me, it was a 7 year portion of my life. I was able to provide the time because of my selfemployed timing arrangements, (I had a local agency and made my own appointments)


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## RogerM (19 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":32vc0a7h said:


> Roger your setup sound great.
> 
> My loft has a 200sq.ft model railway installed and could not cope with the changes you have made. Although the railway is now only a scenic attraction to me, it was a 7 year portion of my life.



Ahh! Form before function. Point taken.  :mrgreen: =D>


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## RogerS (19 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":1c4lixbs said:


> ....
> My loft has a 200sq.ft model railway installed....



Now you've done it, dw. You've let the cat out of the bag and there's going to be a never-ending stream of visitors :wink:


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## RogerS (20 Sep 2010)

While reading up on MagnaClean I came across this in their FAQs.


MagnaClean Professional has been designed to last for the lifetime of the boiler, normally ten years. 

Ten years for a boiler? :shock: :shock:


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## Digit (20 Sep 2010)

If that Rog. Most can be serviced longer than that if you can get the parts, ie circuit boards. In hard water areas combis can fur well within that time if not fed by a softener.
Our boiler uses many standard parts but the PC boards could well be non stock PDQ.

Roy.


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## Dibs-h (20 Sep 2010)

RogerS":1auhc1lg said:


> While reading up on MagnaClean I came across this in their FAQs.
> 
> 
> MagnaClean Professional has been designed to last for the lifetime of the boiler, normally ten years.
> ...



Considering the widget is about £80 - should pay for itself quickly. Go for teh Twintech one - it's around £100 but catches non ferous stuff as well.


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## Lons (20 Sep 2010)

Digit":3t8b2f2e said:


> If that Rog. Most can be serviced longer than that if you can get the parts, ie circuit boards. In hard water areas combis can fur well within that time if not fed by a softener.
> Our boiler uses many standard parts but the PC boards could well be non stock PDQ.
> 
> Roy.



10 years seems to be the "buzz" figure at the minute and there's a school of thought that technology moves on enough in that time to make the environmental benefits worth forcing consumers to change (whatever the cost).

My last Worcester oil boiler was 22 years old and still working when I took the opportunity to buy a new one just prior to the legislation coming into force.

Because of that, I bought a £1700 Worcester Bosch for £700. High efficiency but non condensing and within the law as it was prior legislation. I fitted myself and had it commisioned.

I did the efficiency comparisons and the sums and concluded that savings would take nearly 15 years to recoup and my boiler would probably last longer than a condensing model.

No brainer really. :roll: 

Gave my old boilers' guts to a neighbour and his is still going without using the parts. must be less efficient but his attitude is that he would be gone to his maker long before he could get his £2 - 3 grand back in savings


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## Digit (20 Sep 2010)

Sounds normal Lons, if you haven't got the latest digital toothbrush the world is passing you by!

Roy.


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## Lons (20 Sep 2010)

Digit":2uooe2a2 said:


> Sounds normal Lons, if you haven't got the latest digital toothbrush the world is passing you by!
> 
> Roy.



Not really bothered about being bypassed Roy but I get a little pleasure trying to beat the b******* at their own game :wink: 

Bob


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## Digit (20 Sep 2010)

Join the club!

Roy.


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## RogerS (20 Sep 2010)

That was my theory. But it was flawed. My old Worcester had an efficiency of 80%. New one gave 16-18% better. Take my lifetime and more to see a return. But the good news was, the one went outside.


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## devonwoody (21 Sep 2010)

I've got the first man coming into give me a quote today, I will let you know the damages.

BTW, I thought a householder can still do is own gas service/plumbing and repairs, he must not offer his services to anyone else. Have things drastically changed?


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## Deejay (21 Sep 2010)

Morning DW

Our daughter recently had a replacement gas boiler fitted by Npower.

New wall hung boiler in the kitchen, new TRV's on all the rad's and a Magnaclean.

I think the price included three years warranty and servicing.

£2,800

Hope that didn't set off the airbag  

Cheers

Dave


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## RogerS (21 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":3bja7axr said:


> .....
> BTW, I thought a householder can still do is own gas service/plumbing and repairs, he must not offer his services to anyone else. Have things drastically changed?



That's a good question, dw. My immediate reaction was No but a quick Goggle seems to suggest Maybe.

http://www.miketheboilerman.com/diy.htm


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## devonwoody (21 Sep 2010)

I recall last year British gas said my boiler had too much ventilation to its casing ( I had a louvred door covering the boiler area in side a kitchen unit area).

OK I said I will change the amount of ventilation spaces to reduce, they said OK.
So I suppose I can do my own service and repairs on that basis.

BTW I am into 3D modelling at the moment Amablis 3D canvas its freeware and makes a change from in the W/S.

its here http://www.amabilis.com/downloads.htm


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## RogerS (21 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":3ksnxxv1 said:


> I recall last year British gas said my boiler had too much ventilation to its casing ( I had a louvred door covering the boiler area in side a kitchen unit area).
> 
> ......



How can they say there is 'too much' ventilation given that you can get gas boilers designed to work outside?


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## devonwoody (21 Sep 2010)

I didnt argue with the bloke, I gave him a funny look and said yes sir, three bags full sir, three times. and he just made a note on his work sheet. 
Three years earlier they said my ventilation around casing was not good enough and I said then I would fit a louvred door, and I did, and then that bloke came along and said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wobblycogs (21 Sep 2010)

As I understand it DIY gas is allowed on your own property if you are classed as a competent person (similar to DIY electrics). Have a read of this http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8090.


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## Digit (21 Sep 2010)

I discussed this once with a Gas Board official da, if competent you can. 
What is competent? 
We agreed that if I didn't blow up the neighbouhood I was probably competent!

Roy.


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## Dibs-h (21 Sep 2010)

Deejay":3cz3431v said:


> Morning DW
> 
> Our daughter recently had a replacement gas boiler fitted by Npower.
> 
> ...



I find it mind boggling that some one turns up - fits a £800 bolier perhaps another £100 for TRVs, - lets call it £1000 in total, for a job that 1 man can do in 1 day, let alone 2 men in one day. Lets go with the latter - 2 men, 1 day job.

That's £1800 for labour etc. - £900 each. Over £100 per hour. The question is for fceking what? My local Audi dealership has £100k's of investment in equipment in the servicing side, along with probably more in premises, rates, etc. And they don't charge that sort of labour rate, and along comes a person - who lets face it is a technician - not an engineer - who feels he can charge over £100 per hour. Bloody p!ss take!

I don't feel the charging is transparent in anyway shape or form - just purely pushing it as far as they can go short of the customer saying no. But can the customer say no - no heat or hot water and all the players in the game charge the same sort of rate.

Sorry Rant over!

Dibs


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## RogerS (21 Sep 2010)

Well I got quoted £750 for a power flush today!


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## Dibs-h (21 Sep 2010)

RogerS":26nzyn83 said:


> Well I got quoted £750 for a power flush today!



The machines aren't £10k's - and even if they only had a limited lifespan of say 50 flushes - and you included say £200 for the chap doing it and he even charged mileage to attend - £500 for use of the machine is taking the proverbial.

http://www.abcotuk.co.uk/subcategory.aspx?catid=C3

Machines are < £1k and most throw the "training" in for free. Say another £50 for chemicals and inhibitor - Daylight robbery.

I wonder if you can hire them - must be able.

Dibs


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## wobblycogs (21 Sep 2010)

Yep, you can hire them for <£100 a day http://www.hss.com/g/51610/Central-Heating-Flusher.html. 

We had a boiler, sealed tank and all the required plumbing and exhausts etc fitted a couple of years ago for just over £5k. I forget exactly how the price broke down but it was about:

Boiler: £1k
Hot Water Tank: £1.2k
Other Parts: £1k
Labour: £1.8k (2 guys 6 days = £150/person/day).


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## RogerS (21 Sep 2010)

Yup..you can hire them. Arrived this morning at 10.30am. The spent the last hours trying to remove the ***** ***** ******* ******* pump.


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## devonwoody (21 Sep 2010)

First bloke in, wont put new condensing combi boiler where the old one is because it cannot drain into a proper drainage system.
So new position with chimney through ceiling into loft and roof.

New boiler,
new position
rad valves
take away old boiler
new pumps and timer.
Flush system.

One day two men he says.

Holding my breath awaiting quotes.


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## devonwoody (21 Sep 2010)

RogerS":2zc78qzb said:


> Yup..you can hire them. Arrived this morning at 10.30am. The spent the last hours trying to remove the ***** ***** ******* ******* pump.



Is it corroded up Roger.  

The cost of installing you can blame on the corgi recognition or what ever it is now, its a fixed price cartel?


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## RogerM (21 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":3jjdwr1u said:


> First bloke in, wont put new condensing combi boiler where the old one is because it cannot drain into a proper drainage system.
> So new position with chimney through ceiling into loft and roof.
> 
> New boiler,
> ...




Our plumber didn't plumb into drains. Just dug a soakaway, bag full of rubble, and covered over. AFAIK it doesn't have to go in to the main drain. Methinks there's a job creation scheme going on here. It'll be interesting to see what your quote is. don't hold your breath - we had 4 guys in before we had a written quote. I guess we knew exactly what we wanted so they judged there wouldn't be the opportunity to charge for unnecessary work, or work that would never be done. Or am I just a cynical old b******? Answers on a postcard please.


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## RogerS (21 Sep 2010)

After receiving excessive quotes, dw decided that the best option was to DIY.





:wink: :lol:


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## Deejay (21 Sep 2010)

Dibs-h":bv2xhcd6 said:


> Deejay":bv2xhcd6 said:
> 
> 
> > Morning DW
> ...



Hello Dibs

Feel better now?  

It's not actually quite as bad as it sounds. There was a bit more to it than swapping a boiler. 

The daughter and her husband live just outside Bath.

They had a back boiler in the living room, behind the fireplace, with a hot water cylinder upstairs. That fed a shower with a pump and the DHW.

Two contractors from Sheffield arrived at eight o'clock on the appointed day. 

They hung the new boiler on the kitchen wall and plumbed it in which involved lifting the floors in a bedroom and the landing. They powered up the boiler on a mains lead, power flushed the system and commissioned it.

The old HWC and back boiler were recovered and taken away (beer money, fair enough) The shower pump is now in my shed, awaiting re-cycling.

They left at about ten o'clock at night; probably on 'job a knock'.

A few days later a spark came in, provided a new fused spur and fitted a new controller.

So, they now have a new system, guaranteed (including the old rad's and pipework) and serviced for two years (not three as I thought). What they have bought is peace of mind, for two years. 

When I fitted my first system there were very few regulations in force. Corgi, never mind Gas Safe, had not been invented and people were allowed to use their common sense and take the consequences if things went wrong.

I wired my own controls on the same basis.

How things have changed. I'd be quite happy to fit a new boiler, but where would I get the software to run on a laptop to commission it? Don't mention part P.

Nobody can argue against doing things properly and safely, but I agree that sometimes 'the trades' use regulation as a licence to empty our wallets.

Cheers

Dave


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## Eric The Viking (21 Sep 2010)

Deejay":1sfjdnho said:


> Nobody can argue against doing things properly and safely, but I agree that sometimes 'the trades' use regulation as a licence to empty our wallets.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



I knew it was a scam years ago, after I'd fixed THREE gas leaks the BG man failed to find (with a sniffer box). He condemned our gas fire (now't wrong with it), but missed one leak on the boiler and two under the kitchen floorboards. He never put a manometer on it, either.

Anyway, what is one supposed to make of byelaws that suggest a certain amount of leakage is acceptable???!!!

Mutter, mutter, fume...

PS: I forgot to mention that BG announced a couple of years ago that they would no longer bother with CORGI certification for fitters, I think as it was too expensive. Cycling proficiency test instead, perhaps?


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## Digit (21 Sep 2010)

I did a gas job for a friend who then arranged for the meter etc to be installed. The fitter flatly refused to connect to my work and described it as 'dangerous'. I called in his boss who complemented my work and made the connection! 

Roy.


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## Dibs-h (22 Sep 2010)

Deejay":26ye51kh said:


> Hello Dibs
> 
> Feel better now?
> 
> Dave



Yes - thank you. :lol:




Deejay":26ye51kh said:


> Nobody can argue against doing things properly and safely, but I agree that sometimes 'the trades' use regulation as a licence to empty our wallets.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



You've nailed it on the head there.

WRT to your daughter's install - that still puts the hourly rate at somewhere north of £75 which is ludicrous.

As for guarantees - you can pay the likes of Homeserve around £15 per month or less and almost all the stuff in your house is insured\guaranteed - i.e. water, heating , leccy. I suspect in your daughters case - that'll be the case. You can get that yourself - it needn't be thru an installer. So even if you deduct £300 or so for 2 yrs premiums - it's still hardly value for money.

But then again - it's not Rip off Britain without a reason. :wink:

Being interesting to see what DW's quotes come in at & for precisely what - other than fleecing him! :lol:

Dibs


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## RogerM (22 Sep 2010)

Dibs-h":rsvecmel said:


> Being interesting to see what DW's quotes come in at & for precisely what - other than fleecing him! :lol:
> 
> Dibs



We could start a sweepstake. My bid is £2,950 inc VAT


edit: Actually, with a new position for the boiler, new flue thru roofspace etc. make that £3,450.


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## devonwoody (22 Sep 2010)

I win my bid is ???????????????? :wink: 

I reckon where he wants to put the boiler with flue to go through the ceiling there is going to be a 4x2 joist and electric cables as well , do I tell him now and will he charge me for any changes anyway?


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## Digit (22 Sep 2010)

I installed our heating system myself and then had it commissioned, and boy did I have problems! 
I was 2 days out of hospital and confined to a chair, the engineers, 2 of 'em, were completely stimied as my design was non-standard. 
I had disconnected the boiler's timer and replaced it with a wireless room stat, I produced the wiring diagrams and they went off to study them. 
When they returned I explained that before they fired up the boiler they would have to close a certain gate valve. 
I had plumbed the DHW circuit into the existing low pressure DHW cylinder so that in the event of the boiler packing up I could shut the boiler's DHW circuit off, open the gate valve and turn the immersion heater on. Took them two hours to come to terms with that!

Roy.


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## Dibs-h (22 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":1nch3dii said:


> I win my bid is ???????????????? :wink:
> 
> I reckon where he wants to put the boiler with flue to go through the ceiling there is going to be a 4x2 joist and electric cables as well , do I tell him now and will he charge me for any changes anyway?



I'm not sure I understand the reasoning for the flue out the roof. Am I missing something?


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## Dibs-h (22 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":1nch3dii said:


> I win my bid is ???????????????? :wink:
> 
> I reckon where he wants to put the boiler with flue to go through the ceiling there is going to be a 4x2 joist and electric cables as well , do I tell him now and will he charge me for any changes anyway?



I'm not sure I understand the reasoning for the flue out the roof. Am I missing something?


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## Digit (22 Sep 2010)

Our commissioning engineer seem to prefer the roof option as well, wanted to know why I had passed the flue through the wall. 
With a 'flat' roof above I took the most water proof option. 

Roy.


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## devonwoody (22 Sep 2010)

The reason for going through the roof is that there is not another outside wall available to fit the boiler, hence going up through the ceiling, but I know there is going to be a joist over the top of the boiler.


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## Eric The Viking (22 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":2062cqe2 said:


> The reason for going through the roof is that there is not another outside wall available to fit the boiler, hence going up through the ceiling, but I know there is going to be a joist over the top of the boiler.



Get another plumber.

You can run an ordinary modern flue about 20ft, up, down or any direction you choose. So it can exit the boiler at the top, going sideways and run wherever you want it to. You _will_ need an extension kit, which will add to the cost, but a wall exit basically only needs a (roughly) 100mm hole (diamond drill) wherever you choose to put the pipe. The hole for the flue is also the boiler's air intake (concentric), but even that isn't essential. 

If you want to get clever, I know of one design that uses a pair of _2" plastic water pipes_ as the flue and the air inlet (yes, really), and that will work over 20m (yup, sixty-five and a half feet). Keston, who make it, have a very good reputation - wish I'd bought one now, instead of the Vaillant money-pit I presently have.

There's no reason to go through the roof unless your plumber is too lazy to use Google.


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## Dibs-h (22 Sep 2010)

devonwoody":3r5i6ml0 said:


> The reason for going through the roof is that there is not another outside wall available to fit the boiler, hence going up through the ceiling, but I know there is going to be a joist over the top of the boiler.



Why not put it somewhere else? Where you have an outside wall - as long as the piping (CH, DHW, Cold feed & gas) is relatively close, why not move it somewhere more convenient. Or is the "room" it's going in the most suitable - even if not the best.

HIH

Dibs


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## RogerS (30 Sep 2010)

Why not stick it outside? Will free up space inside. If it's noisy, you'll not hear it any more. I shifted our oil boiler outside and that freed up a huge amount of room plus no oil smells. Wish I'd gone for the combined combi/vented route though in hindsight.


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## devonwoody (30 Sep 2010)

Roger, how does a boiler cope with minus temperatures of perhaps minus 8C if boiler is situated outside a property, surely there are times this might cause a severe problem. Think power cut and boiler cannot restart and in the meantime boiler froze up?


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## RogerS (30 Sep 2010)

Not a problem as it will be on and so generating heat to keep itself cosy. They are reasonably well insulated as well and many have a frost stat.


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## devonwoody (30 Sep 2010)

No electric for three days, means no heating for three days at minus 8C, make sure the insulation is really good Roger. The reason I persist is that we had a boiler in the garage and it froze up 30 years ago when the new house owners had the property later on. Not a plumber or electrician on site for days.


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## wobblycogs (30 Sep 2010)

Our boiler, and I presume most modern boilers, have internal frost protection so if the temperature drops down low enough it will go for a short burn (IIRC it kicks in at 5degC). This covers you for those situations where the boiler is not firing to keep the house warm such as when you are on holiday or if it is outside.

As for the leccy being off for three days I'd guess it wouldn't really matter if the boiler was outside or inside. I doubt most houses are well enough insulated that they wouldn't be freezing after three days at -8.


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## devonwoody (30 Sep 2010)

I am assuming the frost guard only kicks in when there is an electric power supply also available?


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## wobblycogs (30 Sep 2010)

Yep, as well as all the circuitry modern boilers use a electric igniter so need power to fire up. They don't use much power though so it should be easy enough to provide if your electricity goes off regularly, perhaps a small generator or a car battery and inverter.


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