# the blackest black



## marcros (21 Oct 2017)

What finish would give the blackest black to solid timber or to veneer? The idea is that the timber would disappear and the item above it would float in free space- for example a figured table top.

Dyes
ebonising
charring
other...?

I assume that it would need to be a matt finish for maximum blackness?

I also have an idea for a decorative stand using bent veneer. That would rule out charring.

In both, species is not important as long as it is obtainable in a sensible quantity. The veneer will be approx an a4 sheet in total, but I am not making a table base from African Blackwood!

https://creators.vice.com/en_us/article ... ntablack-2


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## Rorschach (21 Oct 2017)

When I want an easy black finish I mix liberon black shellac with some black alcohol dye, the black shellac does no penetrate enough on it's own I find.


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## custard (21 Oct 2017)

Good question, I'll be interested to hear the experiences of others.

I've done a fair bit of scorching followed by chemical staining (vinegar/wire wool). The scorching adds nothing to the blackening process, it's purely there for texture. It's also difficult to scorch open grain timbers to a uniform black, unless you scorch really deeply there are pockets of unburnt timber within the pores which remain visible.

Staining always seems to add a colour cast that may only be visible under certain lighting. As aniline stains fade (and they all do) the "blackness" will change and shift tones. The blackest blacks I've seen on wood generally seem to have a blue-black tone, that's what you get for example with a traditional piano finish. You need a pigment rather than a stain for lightfastness, but too much pigment and you've virtually got paint, so there's correspondingly less evidence that it's actually wood that's underneath!

You can buy pre-stained black veneer, https://www.capitalcrispin.com/dyedVeneer.php , the best is really very black indeed and extends throughout the veneer's thickness so can be sanded.


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## Rorschach (21 Oct 2017)

There is a chemical dye called lab black, it is made from 2 rather nasty chemicals that are applied to the wood separately and they react to form the blackest black you will find, they also penetrate much further than most other dyes. I never much liked using it but it could be worth investigating. For one project though the cost could be prohibitive. Also one of the chemicals was sodium chlorate which is hard to get these days.


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## mrpercysnodgrass (21 Oct 2017)

I would be inclined to use blackboard black, once dry it can be sanded dead flat with a bit of elbow grease. The only thing to look out for if you are interested in trying it is some blackboard blacks are actually dark grey so you will have to check first. You can also buy it in a rattle can!...... https://www.rainbowchalk.com/product-ca ... ard-paint/


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## MrTeroo (21 Oct 2017)

You could ask Anish Kapoor if he has any spare Vantablack?

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...ecture-exclusive-rights-to-the-blackest-black


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## marcros (21 Oct 2017)

MrTeroo":2a2a1pte said:


> You could ask Anish Kapoor if he has any spare Vantablack?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...ecture-exclusive-rights-to-the-blackest-black



or swap it for a bit of the pinkest pink, on the quiet

https://creators.vice.com/en_us/article ... kest-paint


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## custard (21 Oct 2017)

Percy Snodgrass is a voice well worth listening to. If he says blackboard paint then I'd be tempted to give it a whirl.


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## marcros (21 Oct 2017)

if nothing else, it is a cheap experiment and not environmentally (or health-wise) nasty. I will get a tin of that and try it first. I will get some commercial black veneer too for that little project.


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## ED65 (21 Oct 2017)

marcros":20lcwu17 said:


> I assume that it would need to be a matt finish for maximum blackness?


Quite the opposite. All matt surfaces are inherently lighter than gloss surfaces because of surface light scattering. Think of the difference between a blackboard and a Steinway. A blackboard is in effect a dark grey despite being "black".

Obviously there are surface reflections with a gloss finish, but where you look 'into' the surface it will be far darker that if that same surface were matted down. The tonal difference from fully matt to high gloss is quite a bit, more than one level. 

So to back up and answer what would give the blackest black to wood, staining jet black and then giving it a gloss finish, or, painting it gloss black (or using black shellac) if you don't mind the difference in appearance when viewed up close.

A perfectly decent black stain can be achieved using iron acetate and wood treated with some tannin concentrate (even on woods naturally high in tannin). At best this gives a featureless black, which indicates you've gone about as dark as it's possible to go. The surface can have a slight blue or blue-purple cast (when it catches the light, not looked at straight on) but this can be counteracted with varnish or shellac to give a pure neutral black; if overcoating with lacquer you'd need to tint it.


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## custard (21 Oct 2017)

marcros":3c88ge2t said:


> The idea is that the timber would disappear and the item above it would float in free space



That's the key isn't it, you want invisible _nothingness_. If it was glossy it would become a thing in itself, the reflections on the black background would draw the eye away from the main event. 

I'd go with Percy's blackboard paint


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## n0legs (21 Oct 2017)

2k black tint. Thinned down it would penetrate quite a way in.
Obviously add the hardener as well.


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## marcros (21 Oct 2017)

I have found this one too https://culturehustle.com/collections/p ... t-material

if Homebase don't have the blackboard paint tomorrow, I will order this online to try.


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## Droogs (21 Oct 2017)

I made a series of stands for matte white potttery display items a couple of years ago, The stands were birch ply giving a coat of grey high build auto primer, a rub down with 400g wet&dry and then finished with Wickes blackboard matte paint applied with a sponge radiator roller. was so impressed have used nothing else since for an similiar job. In the right lighting the stands virtually disappeared, well impressive.

edit typos


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## Kalimna (22 Oct 2017)

Whilst probably not in the same ballpark as what you are trying to achieve, i am halfway through a guitar build that will be gloss black (think Clapton's Blackie). I plan on staining the wood black with Chestnut spirit stain followed by black nitro lacquer. The lacquer rattlecans come in matt as well as gloss so that might be an option.
Failing that, how about a black stain followed by a black tinted matt oil? I know Crimson Guitars do some very concentrated stains.
With the oil, it would be reasonable to achieve just about any level of sheen with judicious sanding/buffing


Adam


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## Jacob (22 Oct 2017)

ED65":140lip0b said:


> marcros":140lip0b said:
> 
> 
> > I assume that it would need to be a matt finish for maximum blackness?
> ...


Polish or gloss would not help at all - more or less by definition; black means reflecting no light. 
The least reflective black would be matter than matt - something like soot in a chimney. 
Black emulsion isn't bad in the ordinary way of things. Indian ink is good - blacker on a sanded not polished surface.


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## oakmitre (23 Oct 2017)

marcros":3vi0rpoj said:


> I have found this one too https://culturehustle.com/collections/p ... t-material
> 
> if Homebase don't have the blackboard paint tomorrow, I will order this online to try.



I have this paint (Black 2.0) , it is really black. Much darker than any other black paint or stain I have used. However, the matt finish it has is very important to the deep black it produces. You cannot coat it with anything or it ruins the effect. It cannot be used as a contact surface as it easily picks up stuff that make it less matt, or wears shiny.

For a general purpose hard wearing black, by weight 10g of Indian ink in 90-100g of Ronseal water based floor varnish works well but obviously not matt.

I use the Brian Clegg brand - large 600ml bottle for £5 and free postage from this site. I have no idea how they can afford to post / send at this price.

http://www.artdiscount.co.uk/brian-cleg ... ottle.html


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## MrTeroo (23 Oct 2017)

marcros, you're not Johnny are you?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IIW9sL-Yf6Q


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## marcros (23 Oct 2017)

MrTeroo":i7qi9knp said:


> marcros, you're not Johnny are you?
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IIW9sL-Yf6Q



yep. that's me!


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