# Routing thick end grain at the table



## Val (21 Jan 2022)

I need some help: I have cut a piece of sapele from a board, and with the bandsaw I have “carved” two thick pieces that I will use to make a solid wood box (one for the box itself and one for the lid) and then flattened them with a planer and a drum sander.

I think that the majority of the blocks are actually end grain, with a thickness of 60mm. This is the piece of sapele from which the two pieces have been cut from:


Spoiler: Sapele block











My idea was to then apply a template and trim it at the router table:


Spoiler: Router 1










However, even though there’s less than 2-3mm of waste around the template (I took a pass at the spindle sander), as soon as the router bites into the piece I have horrible kickback. There’s not even much tearout, I just manage to make a dent in the wood before the piece tries to fly away.

I am feeding the pieces freehand with paddles from right to left (I also use the “pivoty thingy” screwed on the router plate), I am using a template straight bit 50mm long, and for the first pass I’m using the bottom bearing - I plan to use the top bearing after I flip it to finish it.

I know the piece is quite thick, but that’s a requirement for both parts (the top will be domed and carved). The lid will have a rebate and dit inside the box opening.
It doesn’t matter what direction the wood comes in contact with the router, I always get kickback and I am scared of damaging the piece or - even worse - injure myself.

How can I successfully route it without risking the piece to fly away?

Thanks everyone in advance for the help.


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## RobinBHM (21 Jan 2022)

That’s a dangerous set up, the template is far too small and the cutter is exposed.

My recommendation would be:

1. use a far larger template which does one half at a time….with some knobs or handles

2. Use an easy trim cutter from Wealdon - they are 19mm diameter and use disposable tips and effectively have cutter limiting.

3. make a guard for the cutter - it needs a bit of plywood just above the cutter, say round ended.

4. a run in peg


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## baldkev (22 Jan 2022)

All of what robin said, but even then its asking a fair bit from that setup. Might pay to work out how you can do it in 8 to 10mm height passes. ( if at all possible)


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## Val (22 Jan 2022)

Thank you for your feedback.
I do have a cutter guard, I slid it away as this 50mm router bit doesn’t fit inside the fence if I’m using the bearings.

@RobinBHM What do you mean by “run in a peg”?

@baldkev yes, I was thinking of making the template much thicker and cut only 8-10mm at a time rather than 50mm all at once

any other suggestions/improvements?


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## baldkev (22 Jan 2022)

I guess if you got 9mm ply and made lots of 9mm templates, you could remove one after each pass.
The only other thing would be to try to get the block as close to the template size as possible so the cutter is nibbling less


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## RobinBHM (22 Jan 2022)

It’s possible to fit a steel peg close to the router bit - which the template rests against as well as the router bit bearing - it adds support and reduces the chance of kickback.

you can’t really do staged cuts as bearing has to line up with the template. The only alternative would be a shorter cutter.


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## RobinBHM (22 Jan 2022)

You other option is to rout opposite corners with the grain, then fix template to the other side - although my guess is you dont want screw holes on both sides.

I really highly recommend the easi tip cutters from Wealdon, I know they are quite expensive, but Ive done loads and loads of template work with them - they really are a cut above the conventional TCT cutters. You also gain from a bigger cutter diameter.



The other option you could do is make another template about 2mm bigger all round - that would allow you to take a lighter pass and when you do your final pass the cut depth would be exactly the same all the way around.


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## Val (22 Jan 2022)

baldkev said:


> I guess if you got 9mm ply and made lots of 9mm templates, you could remove one after each pass.
> The only other thing would be to try to get the block as close to the template size as possible so the cutter is nibbling less


Sounds like a plan! That’s going to be my course of action.
I am already quite close to the template (1-2mm max), so I don’t want to get any closer than this with the bandsaw or sander in case I actually remove too much material.


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## Val (22 Jan 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> It’s possible to fit a steel peg close to the router bit - which the template rests against as well as the router bit bearing - it adds support and reduces the chance of kickback.
> 
> you can’t really do staged cuts as bearing has to line up with the template. The only alternative would be a shorter cutter.


I am already using it, I didn’t know the name and call it “the pivoty thingy screwed to the router plate” 
I think that @baldkev solution can be used instead of a set of shorter bits.


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## recipio (22 Jan 2022)

Please don't try that - the cutter will definitely grab the piece and ruin it. There are spiral bearing mounted bits in 50 mm but I haven't tried them and they are mega expensive. I would get a top bearing mounted bit about 30 mm long and use it with the template with a hand held router. Take small nibbles and don't let the wood burn. Then chuck a flush trim bearing in the router, flip it over and use the routed surface to run the bearing on. A little sanding will finish it.


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## Val (22 Jan 2022)

recipio said:


> Please don't try that - the cutter will definitely grab the piece and ruin it. There are spiral bearing mounted bits in 50 mm but I haven't tried them and they are mega expensive. I would get a top bearing mounted bit about 30 mm long and use it with the template with a hand held router. Take small nibbles and don't let the wood burn. Then chuck a flush trim bearing in the router, flip it over and use the routed surface to run the bearing on. A little sanding will finish it.


I agree, I surely don’t want to ruin the piece.
Do you think that @baldkev ‘s method would work? I would rather do it on the table than with the handheld router as the piece is relatively small and I suspect it would be difficult to balance the 1/2” router while trying to prevent kickback.


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## Sgian Dubh (22 Jan 2022)

This might be more safely achieved with a belt sander (see below) than a router, either hand held or inverted. I say this because the items are small and it's difficult to devise safe holding for them.

With a belt sander such as the one below, (or other configurations) you could attach your template to your block of wood and create a stop of a fixed width and thickness that sits clamped parallel with the belt all across the width of the table. This stop could be part of a false table that attaches to the machine's table, e.g., making use of the cast iron table's slot. Then it would just be a case of sizing your template to match the offset of the stop from the belt attached to the sander's table and sanding until the template butts up against the stop.

Assuming you don't have a belt sander with a fixed table as below, it would still be possible I think to rig up a hand held belt sander on its side, or upright with the belt running vertically, with a false table and stop. Slainte.

Image source from Axminster: https://cdn.axminstertools.com/medi...93965a290622b2a179c050d4180/1/0/105245_xl.jpg


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## Limey Lurker (22 Jan 2022)

Val said:


> I need some help: I have cut a piece of sapele from a board, and with the bandsaw I have “carved” two thick pieces that I will use to make a solid wood box (one for the box itself and one for the lid) and then flattened them with a planer and a drum sander.
> 
> I think that the majority of the blocks are actually end grain, with a thickness of 60mm. This is the piece of sapele from which the two pieces have been cut from:
> 
> ...


The biggest danger that you face is the breaking of the router bit just above the bottom guide bearing! If I were to try this job, I would brace the router cutter by fitting a top bearing and support, so that the tendency of the cutter to bend would be removed. There are two router mounting screws to the left of the pic which could be used to secure the bottom of braces which connect to the upper bearing mount.


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## recipio (22 Jan 2022)

Val said:


> I agree, I surely don’t want to ruin the piece.
> Do you think that @baldkev ‘s method would work? I would rather do it on the table than with the handheld router as the piece is relatively small and I suspect it would be difficult to balance the 1/2” router while trying to prevent kickback.


My gut instinct is not to try it on a router table as it will probably be snatched from your hands no matter how good your technique. I would still suggest a 1/4" hand held router with the bits as above. They come in 30mm lengths so two will do the job. I have used a 1/4" spiral bit with bearing and they are smoother and easier to control for flush trimming. You could use the offcuts with a suitable gap to run the router on to prevent tilting - sitting on a non slip mat. ? Other than that you can buy sanding drums with a bearing which are about 70mm high and are used in a drill press. Be safe !


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## baldkev (22 Jan 2022)

If you went with slainte's suggestion, you could use a template either side ( accurately aligned ) and an f clamp across the centre to give you a handle


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## baldkev (22 Jan 2022)

This is my take on slaintes suggestion
The sander could sit within a cradle/ box, box sides at the same height as the belt


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## Val (22 Jan 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> This might be more safely achieved with a belt sander (see below) than a router, either hand held or inverted. I say this because the items are small and it's difficult to devise safe holding for them.
> 
> With a belt sander such as the one below, (or other configurations) you could attach your template to your block of wood and create a stop of a fixed width and thickness that sits clamped parallel with the belt all across the width of the table. This stop could be part of a false table that attaches to the machine's table, e.g., making use of the cast iron table's slot. Then it would just be a case of sizing your template to match the offset of the stop from the belt attached to the sander's table and sanding until the template butts up against the stop.


I actually have the exact same disc/belt sander you have linked. I never thought of putting a stop on the table and create an offset template, that’s a really good idea (for other projects also). Thank you!


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## D_W (22 Jan 2022)

This is much like a guitar template rout (which involves endgrain). however, a guitar body is relatively large. You need to be able to make that piece seem like a large piece and limit what needs to be template routed (the picture looks fine for that, though - it's the size that's an issue. 

I'd have a clamp on that thing and control the rout with the clamp and go slow, never climbing. If the router wants it, the router takes it and you're not in the fight - that's important. 

When I do guitar bodies, I generally don't use the router as I also don't usually use something as agreeable as mahogany. The go-to when not using the router is just an OSS close to the line and hand work the rest of the way to fine things. It's not that bad and isn't unsafe, either.


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## Val (22 Jan 2022)

Limey Lurker said:


> The biggest danger that you face is the breaking of the router bit just above the bottom guide bearing! If I were to try this job, I would brace the router cutter by fitting a top bearing and support, so that the tendency of the cutter to bend would be removed. There are two router mounting screws to the left of the pic which could be used to secure the bottom of braces which connect to the upper bearing mount.


Before reading this post I had never heard of braces for router bits. Good to know, thanks


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## Val (22 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> This is much like a guitar template rout (which involves endgrain). however, a guitar body is relatively large. You need to be able to make that piece seem like a large piece and limit what needs to be template routed (the picture looks fine for that, though - it's the size that's an issue.
> 
> I'd have a clamp on that thing and control the rout with the clamp and go slow, never climbing. If the router wants it, the router takes it and you're not in the fight - that's important.
> 
> When I do guitar bodies, I generally don't use the router as I also don't usually use something as agreeable as mahogany. The go-to when not using the router is just an OSS close to the line and hand work the rest of the way to fine things. It's not that bad and isn't unsafe, either.


That’s actually what I was wondering while trying to route it: how am I supposed to do a thick bass or guitar body on a template? 
I think at this point I will give it a go clamping it on an f clamp and if it doesn’t work I will try the sled and custom template on the belt sander I’ll keep you posted
Thanks everyone


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## D_W (22 Jan 2022)

well, I've done sapele bodies and when I do template route, I use nothing but a cheap straight cut bit. The key with them is getting most of the stuff outside of the line removed before the large bit sees the body, and then it's just a slow controlled route with the body concentrating on following the template. If the amount of wood to be removed is small, it's easy. 

The other thing some folks do is do the first part of the template route with a half height bit and then come back and do the rest with another bit. I haven't ever felt any issue with safety template routing a guitar body, but they're large and you're in the same position - far from the bit and when the router wants something, you don't fight it. 

I don't have a bandsaw, so "getting close to the line" for me is spokeshave or coarse drum sanding. If the wood being used is good enough that you'll get a clean cut off of a template rout. I think one of the reasons that the guitar industry likes mahogany so much is that there's almost never chipout or compressed grain or splitting or anomalies on the end grain.


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## southendwoodworker (22 Jan 2022)

baldkev said:


> If you went with slainte's suggestion, you could use a template either side ( accurately aligned ) and an f clamp across the centre to give you a handle



You have a very interesting type of glue there in the picture!


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## baldkev (22 Jan 2022)

southendwoodworker said:


> You have a very interesting type of glue there in the picture!



Yep, you have to spareing with it, otherwise you get a red line in your work. It takes ages to dry too..... good in a tight spot though  

I definitely prefer bigger bits for heavier work as they have more mass. For larger pieces i would use a router by hand ( with bearing bit ) but for a small piece like that i would have the router in a table or try slaintes idea
The big yellow bit is a cheap chinese thing. It makes a hell of a noise but works well enough. The one next to it is a standard worktop bit for scale....


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## Titan_uk (23 Jan 2022)

I'd go with a sander too. board with dowel set in from edge equal to radius of template. corresponding hole in template. put template on dowel and rotate against a sander. add extra holes for the dowel and an offset stop for a multi purpose jig.


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## the great waldo (23 Jan 2022)

Use a sander. That long cutter is going to grab that end grain and take your fingers off if your unlucky. If you must use a router then us a smaller 8-10 mm (spiral) cutter and take very light passes. You might need a couple of cans of spinach before hand to help hold the router.
Good luck.
Cheers
Andrew


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## Val (25 Jan 2022)

Since many people here have suggested to buy a compression bit to work the end grain more easily, I have found this on banggood:








1/2" Shank Carbide CNC Router Bit Milling Cutter Bearing Trimming Ultra-Perfomance Compression Flush Trim For Wood


Only US$59.99, buy best 1/2




uk.banggood.com





It's 30mm in cutting length, so I should just be able to use either the bottom or top bearing and trim anything within 60mm thickness.
Does anyone have experience with this router bit? Am I going to pay custom fees since it comes from China?
I checked for a similar bit on Wealden and Titman but I haven't found anything.


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## Bojam (25 Jan 2022)

baldkev said:


> If you went with slainte's suggestion, you could use a template either side ( accurately aligned ) and an f clamp across the centre to give you a handle



Slainte means “health” in Gaelic and is used like “cheers”


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## baldkev (25 Jan 2022)

Ah, lol, i just thought he had lots of names! Richard, sgian dubh, slainte!  Thanks for enlightening me


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## Sporky McGuffin (25 Jan 2022)

Val said:


> It's 30mm in cutting length, so I should just be able to use either the bottom or top bearing and trim anything within 60mm thickness.


I might have missed something, but if you try to use that to trim something over 30mm in thickness I don't think it'll work. Either the top or the bottom bearing will run on the workpiece.


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## TRITON (25 Jan 2022)

Info- i was like 'right, hmmm yes'.

Pic 2- I went WHOA ...BLOODY HELL ....OMG


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## Adam W. (25 Jan 2022)

It looks like a finger chopper to me.


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## Doug71 (25 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I might have missed something, but if you try to use that to trim something over 30mm in thickness I don't think it'll work. Either the top or the bottom bearing will run on the workpiece.



Correct


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## Val (25 Jan 2022)

Doug71 said:


> Correct


I’m not so sure, as if you remove the top bearing (top while in the table) and the waste is less than the diameter of the bit, then you should be able to trim without any problems. Both top/bottom bearings are removable.



Adam W. said:


> It looks like a finger chopper to me.


Why so?


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## Spectric (25 Jan 2022)

Hi Val

I recently had make an infill piece for under a shower tray in sapele with a 580 radius and 75 mm high and used a template and a Wealdon trim cutter T2080b. It comprised of two layers and when one layer was done I then used that as the template for the next.

There was a fair amount to take off and I did it in stages by just changing the top bearing, getting smaller until the last one would be to size.

These are the bearings you can use, 4mm bore.


TB7483/4 (19mm) stdTB760200.5TB870221.5TB880242.5TB890263.5TB895284.5TB900305.5


The first colomb is the bearing OD and the second is how much larger it cuts than the std 3/4 bearing. The std 3/4 bearing cuts flush to the template, the others take smaller cuts so fit a TB890 and you remove 3.5mm more than than the template size. 

This way also slowly knocks down any high spots so the last few cuts will be continous and give a really clean finish.


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## Adam W. (25 Jan 2022)

Val said:


> I’m not so sure, as if you remove the top bearing (top while in the table) and the waste is less than the diameter of the bit, then you should be able to trim without any problems. Both top/bottom bearings are removable.
> 
> 
> Why so?


If it takes off like you said in your first post, you run the risk of hitting the projecting cutter with your hand.

It's a small piece and small pieces and rotating power tools don't make for a happy couple.


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## Spectric (25 Jan 2022)

Adam W. said:


> run the risk of hitting the projecting cutter with your hand


You should not be applying any real force, just gently moving the workpiece past the cutter but taking small cuts, do not think you can remove 3mm in a single pass especially if the amount that needs removing is not constant.


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## D_W (25 Jan 2022)

baldkev said:


> Yep, you have to spareing with it, otherwise you get a red line in your work. It takes ages to dry too..... good in a tight spot though
> 
> I definitely prefer bigger bits for heavier work as they have more mass. For larger pieces i would use a router by hand ( with bearing bit ) but for a small piece like that i would have the router in a table or try slaintes idea
> The big yellow bit is a cheap chinese thing. It makes a hell of a noise but works well enough. The one next to it is a standard worktop bit for scale....



Have a couple of the same yellow bit for guitar bodies. ditto on the noise - it sounds like someone slapping paddles together in a heavy cut (just at 20000 times a minute), but guitar bodies all have to be sanded or scraped, I've never had a finish issue from it. 

Vaguely recall seeing that a large spiral bit with a bearing top or bottom (2" of cut length" was about $100-$110 with tax and shipping).


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## Adam W. (25 Jan 2022)

I'd say you'd be better off carving it to shape with it fixed to the bench and using a paring chisel, with a vertical stabbing motion, and the chisel braced against your shoulder and using your upper body to provide the force to drive the chisel downwards.


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## Adam W. (25 Jan 2022)

Spectric said:


> You should not be applying any real force, just gently moving the workpiece past the cutter but taking small cuts, do not think you can remove 3mm in a single pass especially if the amount that needs removing is not constant.



It's still a sketchy operation with the cutter sticking up in the air like that.


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## Sgian Dubh (25 Jan 2022)

Val said:


> I’m not so sure, as if you remove the top bearing (top while in the table) and the waste is less than the diameter of the bit, then you should be able to trim without any problems. Both top/bottom bearings are removable.
> Why so?


In my previous post where I suggested you might jig up and use a belt sander I was trying to gently hint that using a router, inverted or hand held, was probably not a good idea.

I'll update my recommendation to say explicitly that trying to pattern cut those tiddly little bits of wood on a router table is a technique highly likely to lead to injury. My recommendation is, don't even think about it (not even with your new and yet to be delivered router bit) and find a safer way. I've suggested one, Adam has suggested another, and there may have been one or two alternative safer suggestions made that I don't recall without scrolling back through all the answers.

So, in case you missed what I said earlier: just don't do it. Slainte.


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## Val (25 Jan 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> In my previous post where I suggested you might jig up and use a belt sander I was trying to gently hint that using a router, inverted or hand held, was probably not a good idea.
> 
> I'll update my recommendation to say explicitly that trying to pattern cut those tiddly little bits of wood on a router table is a technique highly likely to lead to injury. My recommendation is, don't even think about it (not even with your new and yet to be delivered router bit) and find a safer way. I've suggested one, Adam has suggested another, and there may have been one or two alternative safer suggestions made that I don't recall without scrolling back through all the answers.
> 
> So, in case you missed what I said earlier: just don't do it. Slainte.



In my previous post I answered on the merit of possibility (i.e. you said that the top bearing would’ve prevented the cut, which is not necessarily true), not on the merit of safety.
However, I take your (and other people’s) advice of experienced woodworker very seriously, and that’s why I’ll make a jig for the belt sander to finish this little piece


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## Sgian Dubh (25 Jan 2022)

Val said:


> In my previous post I answered on the merit of possibility (*i.e. you said that the top bearing would’ve prevented the cut,* which is not necessarily true), not on the merit of safety.


I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I didn't say that. Slainte.


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## Val (26 Jan 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I think you're mistaking me for someone else. I didn't say that. Slainte.


True! Apologies, you quoted my message and I thought it was you, but instead it was @Sporky McGuffin and @Doug71 
Cheers!


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## the great waldo (26 Jan 2022)

Hi Val
I would really be happy for you to be able to count to 10 with both hands. I would deffinitely not use a router especially like that on a table router. We tried to do something similar with a mini electric guitar 40mm about 30 years ago, the cutter grabbed the end grain and threw the guitar with some force into my mates reproductive organs (he didn't do any reproducing for a couple of weeks) I did warn him before hand about the dangers involved. I would possibly risk it with a hand router(still iffy) If your not making hundreds just trim as much of with the bandsaw and clean up with a sander.
Cheers
Andrew


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## the great waldo (26 Jan 2022)

Val said:


> That’s actually what I was wondering while trying to route it: how am I supposed to do a thick bass or guitar body on a template?
> I think at this point I will give it a go clamping it on an f clamp and if it doesn’t work I will try the sled and custom template on the belt sander I’ll keep you posted
> Thanks everyone


On a guitar you mount the template above the guitar and use a hand router and alter the cut dirrections as appropriate and use very fine cuts and a heavy router or use a pin router (hard to find these days.
Cheers
Andrew


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## Setch (26 Jan 2022)

I know lots of guitar folks use tables to route solid bodies, bit I tried it a couple of times and then said ""hell no".
If a hand held router kicks, you have both hands on the router handles, well away from the cutter.

If a table kicks, it can dissapear the work piece in an instant, leaving precisely nothing between your fragile pinkys and that big honking cutter - no thanks!

With that much endgrain I'd be sanding every time.


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## Oaktree11 (1 Feb 2022)

I have been pattern routing some curved staves recently from 18mm birch ply. They are about 300mm long and 25mm wide. I found no way to do this safely on my router table. I have compound spiral cutters etc but you can never predict when it will grab, and trust me grab it will, especially towards the ends.
The easiest and safest way I found was to screw the pattern to a piece of 4 x 2 clamp it in the vice and stick the workpiece onto it. Then use my small Katsu router with a bearing guided spiral cutter. Really smooth, always controllable and not a hint of grabbing or kicking. I can post some pics if anyone is interested. Good luck. John


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## Val (1 Feb 2022)

As I promised I’m now posting the pictures of the finished result:


Spoiler: pictures






















To finish it I sanded the box with the belt sander just a tiny smidge over the template, then with a different profiler cutter, and while holding the piece with a big f clamp, I finished it at the router table.
I then sanded it to 240 grit, oiled it with danish oil, waited 24h and then sanded it at 400 grit and oiled it again yesterday.

thanks everyone for your help with this!

I am happy about the result (first attempt at this kind of work), but I’ve noticed that on the bottom a crack has developed. It disappeared after the first oiling, but it has reappeared and stayed after the second oiling


Spoiler: Between oiling












Spoiler: After second oiling









I’ve also noticed that the box was “brighter” before second sanding and oiling, but maybe it needs more time to cure/dry.

Should I do anything about the crack? Will it disappear again?


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