# Drawer Design and Construction



## GK1 (2 May 2019)

I've been making drawers with lapped dovetail fronts and with the back held in a simple housing in each side. The sides extend beyond the back which means there's a bit less space but also that it's unlikely the drawer will be pulled right out. Also I've been making the back less tall so the base gets pinned to the bottom of the back.

Now I've seen various references to having the back dovetailed as well. Is this the more traditional method for good quality work ? Does the entire base fit in a groove or is the back made less tall ? Also is there a way to prevent the drawer from being pulled out - I think I've seen a method where the drawer has to be tilted to slide in and as it's pulled out it meets a stop on the cabinet frame.


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## Jacob (2 May 2019)

GK1":221yxrcm said:


> I've been making drawers with lapped dovetail fronts and with the back held in a simple housing in each side. The sides extend beyond the back which means there's a bit less space but also that it's unlikely the drawer will be pulled right out. Also I've been making the back less tall so the base gets pinned to the bottom of the back.
> 
> Now I've seen various references to having the back dovetailed as well. Is this the more traditional method for good quality work ? Does the entire base fit in a groove or is the back made less tall ? Also is there a way to prevent the drawer from being pulled out - I think I've seen a method where the drawer has to be tilted to slide in and as it's pulled out it meets a stop on the cabinet frame.


There's loads on the net e.g.
http://woodarchivist.com/393-build-drawers/
Back is shorter than the sides and sits above the bottom board so the DTs are differently spaced - and with wider pins for strength as you are joining thin boards, not like the drawer front.
This site shows a side slot for the bottom board but this is only for small lightweight use as it is weak and gives a narrow edge on the runner - prone to wear. Drawer slips are the standard way to go, but still with a slot in the front board. If you pin the bottom at the back you may need a deeper slot at the front, to allow for movement. Better to glue the bottom in the front slot and leave it free at the back. There's a modern fashion for a slotted screw supporting the back of the bottom board but this is not a good detail - better with nothing.
n.b. DTs were for all qualities of work - they are the hand-tool simplest and most effective way of joining the sides, short of nailing them - which is not uncommon in old work.


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## thetyreman (2 May 2019)

you're answered most of your own questions  

you'll get more room out of the space inside with dovetails at the back, the top at the back always goes down from what I've seen and they have a bevel, 

the highest quality drawers you see in fine furniture almost always have quartersawn sides and drawer slips, as well as a brass screw coming through from underneath that's loose to allow for movement, when using solid wood for the bottom. 

There is nothing wrong with a dado at the back though, usually it's used for cantilevered drawers where you want the drawer fully open without falling out, e.g. a workbench drawer or tool chest drawer.


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## thetyreman (2 May 2019)

as jacob says the brass screw is optional, I didn't use one on my last (workbench) drawer, it looks nice though, probably only worth it if using very expensive woods for visual purposes. You can also use plywood for the base and then don't have to worry about movement, I've glued little blocks of pine using hide glue underneath when it's plywood to stop it rattling.


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## woodbloke66 (3 May 2019)

I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin.







As the drawer runs on the rail, the drawer box sides don't ever need to touch the carcase and the front is just screwed in place. Drawers made like this are more complicated to make but much easier to fit and it's only the...






...drawer front which needs to be accurately fitted all round, usually with 0.15mm shadow gap - Rob


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## custard (3 May 2019)

GK1":7r8ev61b said:


> I've been making drawers with lapped dovetail fronts and with the back held in a simple housing in each side. The sides extend beyond the back which means there's a bit less space but also that it's unlikely the drawer will be pulled right out. Also I've been making the back less tall so the base gets pinned to the bottom of the back.
> 
> Now I've seen various references to having the back dovetailed as well. Is this the more traditional method for good quality work ? Does the entire base fit in a groove or is the back made less tall ? Also is there a way to prevent the drawer from being pulled out - I think I've seen a method where the drawer has to be tilted to slide in and as it's pulled out it meets a stop on the cabinet frame.



Yes, as a general rule dovetailing the back with through dovetails is a sign of first quality work, although if you're an undisputed master cabinet maker like say Rod Wales, then you won't use dovetails at all on any of your drawers and that'd still be okay!

Making the back slightly shorter (only by about 5 or 6mm) is important as it prevents a cushion of air building up which will push out other drawers when you push this drawer home, or at least that's what'll happen if you're skilled enough to reliably make piston fit drawers. I know at least one maker who uses this "whack a mole" drawer feature to impress prospective clients regarding his making skills, but it seems a bit tiresome to me.

I wouldn't get too focussed on mechanical methods of preventing drawers being pulled out. It's only really important for very shallow drawers. This is a copy of a Shaker desk that I make quite frequently,






It has a deceptively shallow drawer, so I fit a sprung wooden stop to prevent clients embarrassing themselves, but on 99% of drawers it's simply unnecessary. 

There is a trick that was pioneered by Alan Peters where you fit a drawer with some clever shaping that means it tightens up just before it would be pulled out completely. I trained at the same workshop where Alan Peters originally trained, and they recommend against this technique, saying your drawer box and drawer cavity should be straight and true. Far be it from me to disagree with Alan Peters, but having tried both methods I think the workshop is right and it's more trouble than its worth.


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## Benchwayze (3 May 2019)

Hi GK. 

You should be able to find a copy of 'Cabinetmaking for Beginners' by Charles H Hayward. 
In that book there is an easy to follow chapter on basic drawer making. What we might call a WIP or step-by-step. The drawings are also clear and easy to understand. 

That's where I first learned his way. (Whilst still at school. Though it might have been in one of Haywards other books.) They aren't expensive and worth their weight in Cuban Mahogany! 

Suggest Amazon, Abebooks.co.uk or eBay. 

HTH

John (hammer)


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## custard (3 May 2019)

woodbloke66":v9k149iu said:


> I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin.



Interesting method, but what would happen if the contents of the drawer were off to one side, wouldn't the drawer then want to tip slightly and therefore make the shadow lines around the drawer front uneven?


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## woodbloke66 (4 May 2019)

custard":1psfkche said:


> woodbloke66":1psfkche said:
> 
> 
> > I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin.
> ...


Nope, contact is still made on the drawer bottom and top (runners & kickers) but the wide sides don't need to touch the carcase. If you have a peek at the pic above taken during the construction of my CoD, you'll see that it's impossible to make and fit one in the conventional way as the side panels are only 10mm thick and the legs are 40.

The advantage of this method of building drawers is that the front is applied completely separately as it's screwed on. This means that you can do some very...






....fancy veneered work on the front face of the piece which would be almost impossible with conventional drawers - Rob


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## Jacob (4 May 2019)

custard":3ef0eaq1 said:


> .....
> Yes, as a general rule dovetailing the back with through dovetails is a sign of first quality work, ......


And second quality work! It's the easiest, hence normal, hand tool way. The only hand tool way that would be simpler would be nailing.


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## GK1 (4 May 2019)

Lots of interesting information here thank you all. So far I've been using plywood bases so I've not been concerned with shrinkage. As I progress I'm finding that something I once considered perfectly good enough becomes, well, worthy of improvement.

I looked at a dresser that I have in the home and the drawer has been made with through dovetails all round, and a pinned on surround moulding to the front which hides the end grain and gives relief to the front.

Benchwayze, I've used up a little more of an Amazon voucher and ordered that book.


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## deema (4 May 2019)

I’m intrigued by how Woodbloke66 makes his drawers. I don’t fully follow how this is being done. I quote from his reply:

“I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin”.

Would it be possible to show a little more detail?


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## marcros (4 May 2019)

I think that there is a good explanation on the Axminster blog. It covers a couple of posts. I think also that Rob showed it on a recent thread here. Unfortunately the Robert Ingham book is out of print.


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## woodbloke66 (4 May 2019)

deema":486d9fyq said:


> I’m intrigued by how Woodbloke66 makes his drawers. I don’t fully follow how this is being done. I quote from his reply:
> 
> “I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin”.
> 
> Would it be possible to show a little more detail?


Yep, I can. Busy at the mo' drum sanding veneers, but I sort it out and post a few pics. It isn't my method btw but one I came across in Rob Ingham's book 'Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking' which has, as has been mentioned above by 'marcros', sadly out of print but you might be able to get hold of a second hand copy somewhere. If you see one, grab it pronto :lol:

Edit: This is the post from the AxBlog of a few years ago - Rob


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## dzj (4 May 2019)

"“I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin”."

Stickley also used a similar method. 
Perhaps someone with greater knowledge of antique furniture might suggest furniture makers of the past who also came up with similar ideas.


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## Jacob (4 May 2019)

dzj":3ravuclm said:


> woodbloke66":3ravuclm said:
> 
> 
> > ..I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin...
> ...


I can't quite see the point of Rob's method. Something tells me "furniture makers of the past" wouldn't get it either. :lol: 
The one simple way to make sure a normal drawer will fit is try all the pieces first before joining them up. Push in the front and back pieces to check for height/width/clearance, slide in the sides ditto. Trim if necessary then mark and cut DTs. Much easier than trying to fit a finished drawer which has ended up a bit tight.


woodbloke66":3ravuclm said:


> ..it's impossible to make and fit one in the conventional way as the side panels are only 10mm thick and the legs are 40...


No prob. Just add a "spacer" to fill the gap. Quite a common feature - many cupboards are made with panelled sides, not solid, and need the spacer as well as runner and kicker.
Muntins are common in the bottom of wider drawers because it avoids having to have a thicker board to span the width.


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## woodbloke66 (4 May 2019)

Jacob":1bml55ic said:


> I can't quite see the point of Rob's method. Something tells me "furniture makers of the past" wouldn't get it either. :lol:
> The one simple way to make sure a normal drawer will fit is try all the pieces first before joining them up. Push in the front and back pieces to check for height/width/clearance, slide in the sides ditto. Trim if necessary then mark and cut DTs. Much easier than trying to fit a finished drawer which has ended up a bit tight.


You miss the point entirely Jacob. Look earlier in this thread to see Rob Ingham's chest of drawers where the front of the piece is entirely veneered to make a seamless pattern. The way that Rob Ingham did this is to make the drawers, then ensure that the fronts were a righty tighty fit before the veneers were matched, fitted and then laid. Very difficult, almost impossible to do with conventionally made drawers; still a bit tricky this way  - Rob


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## custard (4 May 2019)

woodbloke66":amk5h077 said:


> The advantage of this method of building drawers is that the front is applied completely separately as it's screwed on. This means that you can do some very...
> 
> View attachment 5
> 
> ...



Robert Ingham must set the record for combining the highest making skills with the worst design skills. His stuff is impeccably made but fugly beyond belief!


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## woodbloke66 (4 May 2019)

custard":23h7qka1 said:


> woodbloke66":23h7qka1 said:
> 
> 
> > The advantage of this method of building drawers is that the front is applied completely separately as it's screwed on. This means that you can do some very...
> ...


I have to agree Custard. How he makes his stuff is beyond me; just trying to read through the text on some of his old articles in F&C is enough to give me brain ache. His designs are definitely an 'acquired' taste, but a very few are quite respectable, though you can count those on the fingers of one hand. He is though, if you ever meet him, a *proper* gentleman and scholar. 

PM sent- Rob


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## Jacob (4 May 2019)

woodbloke66":3lfah2va said:


> .....The way that Rob Ingham did this is to make the drawers, then ensure that the fronts were a righty tighty fit before the veneers were matched, fitted and then laid. Very difficult, almost impossible to do with conventionally made drawers;


Er, surely very easy with conventionally made drawers. Before you join the drawer bits you fit each front into the chest to fit as tight or as loose as you want. See earlier post.


> still a bit tricky this way  - Rob


Yep. There are definitely easier ways!


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## Jacob (4 May 2019)

woodbloke66":17xzsrg3 said:


> custard":17xzsrg3 said:
> 
> 
> > ...........
> ...


No doubt he's a nice chap but I wonder if he's another of those modern makers who don't respect tradition sufficiently and end up reinventing the wheel, with great difficulty.


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## woodbloke66 (4 May 2019)

Jacob":332nm44k said:


> > No doubt he's a nice chap but I wonder if he's another of those modern makers who don't respect tradition sufficiently and end up reinventing the wheel, with great difficulty.



I'm not sure about that one Jacob. His stuff is incredibly complicated (more wood 'engineering' if that's a term to use?) so he's developed his own unique ways to make his pieces which may or may not incorporate old ways but I suspect there's not many of them. He also damaged his back a long time ago so has to do much of his work from a seated position and as such has developed special jigs which make it easier for him to use seated rather than standing - Rob


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## Sam R (8 May 2019)

Jacob":2qh8n6tn said:


> No doubt he's a nice chap but I wonder if he's another of those modern makers who don't respect tradition sufficiently and end up reinventing the wheel, with great difficulty.



You've got to laugh sometimes! This is Robert Ingham, not some chump with a top-knot & a Youtube channel. To wit, he was head of teaching when Makepeace set up Parnham and, if asked, will give a analysed answer for every method he uses. By all accounts a brilliant teacher. All that over-the-top stuff of Makepeace's which is as good as it has ever got in terms of standard of making? I'd wager Ingham had a significant role in much of it.


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## woodbloke66 (8 May 2019)

Sam R":38f5pcd6 said:


> Jacob":38f5pcd6 said:
> 
> 
> > No doubt he's a nice chap but I wonder if he's another of those modern makers who don't respect tradition sufficiently and end up reinventing the wheel, with great difficulty.
> ...


When I was working in the trade, my then boss was an ex-student of Parnham and their nickname for Rob Ingham was very simple...'God' - Rob


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## Benchwayze (9 May 2019)

I wonder who's the chump with the topknot and the YouTube channel? :mrgreen: 
Glad I didn't start a YouTube woodwork channel; although I haven't got enough hair for a top knot!

Cheers
John


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## MikeG. (9 May 2019)

woodbloke66":1wope1e5 said:


> I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin............



I'm really struggling to see what you achieve by doing it this way, Rob. Wouldn't it be far simpler to build an undersized conventional box and fit rebated runners? That's what I do when I plant on drawer faces, and puzzle as I have over your way, I just can't see any advantage you gain your way. Building in a muntin into every drawer when they otherwise wouldn't need one just seems an unnecessary faff.


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## Benchwayze (9 May 2019)

MikeG.":codjcjzv said:


> woodbloke66":codjcjzv said:
> 
> 
> > I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin............
> ...




One of the reasons I don't like metal drawer slides. They are a bit of a faff to fit . I realise they can be useful in a kitchen, but they do waste space. So wherever possible I prefer a traditional fitted drawer. However if Rob's method works for him then ok. If it's a good solution then it's progress.

John (hammer)


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## Bodgers (9 May 2019)

The Robert Ingham drawer method that has been mentioned.

Surprised that it is out of print, I only bought my new copy a few months back...

I agree that his design style is a bit strange, but I liked his book, particularly the jig ideas.


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## Jacob (9 May 2019)

Looks slightly insane to me. Doesn't solve any problems, in fact introduces a big one - the bottom will move and either push the ends out or shrink and leave a gap.
I guess Ingham had not spent much time looking at old furniture in need of repair!
Also - looks like the bottom fitted to slots all round, but as the wear is taken on the muntin instead of the edges of the drawer sides, he can get away with this weak detail.
A slight improvement would be to have the bottom grain going end to end as there would be less shrinkage across the narrows, and 4 slots to accommodate this, rather than two, end to end.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 May 2019)

GK1":2ndan3s6 said:


> I've been making drawers with lapped dovetail fronts and with the back held in a simple housing in each side. The sides extend beyond the back which means there's a bit less space but also that it's unlikely the drawer will be pulled right out. Also I've been making the back less tall so the base gets pinned to the bottom of the back.
> 
> Now I've seen various references to having the back dovetailed as well. Is this the more traditional method for good quality work ? Does the entire base fit in a groove or is the back made less tall ? Also is there a way to prevent the drawer from being pulled out - I think I've seen a method where the drawer has to be tilted to slide in and as it's pulled out it meets a stop on the cabinet frame.



I build very traditional drawers: half lap at the front, lapped at the rear, and slips at the sides into a groove at the front ....











The photo shows the rear of the drawer, sans the drawer bottom. The drawer bottom is solid wood, and the grain runs across from side-to-side for expansion. The drawer sides are are thin, usually 6mm, which is why slips are used (as they are too thin to be grooved). I use quartersawn timber for drawer sides.

Here the drawer bottom is in. The junction between the drawer slip and bottom received a moulding (bead) to disguise the join. The front of the bottom is captured in the groove behind the drawer front ...











The drawer back is lower than the sides, and the ends are chamfered, to make it easier to insert ...






The lapped dovetails at the rear are set with the lowermost dovetail a half tail/pin above the drawer bottom. This drawer is from the Apothecary Chest and, being small, the sides were grooved and not slipped ...






I do use a screw at the rear. This is in an enlarged hole to allow for expansion ...






Lastly, I have begun making an adjustable drawer stop which is attached behind the drawer front. This is my design ...











Regards from Perth

Derek


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## custard (9 May 2019)

Love the drawers Derek, but less enamoured with the drawer stop. 

Your drawer construction is the way I make drawers, and also the way 90% plus of top end furniture makers make drawers, so no debate there. 

But the adjustable drawer stop I'm not so taken with. Given that the stop will shrink slightly and slacken the grip of the screw, it seems a banker's bet that the impact of the drawer will push the stop back over time. Instead this the way almost every maker I know makes drawer stops (and the way I also see the job done in most antiques).

The stop drops into a small mortice that's pre-cut into the component before assembly,










You have an initial fit of the drawer with the stops left as a push fit in the mortices,





Measure and calculate the amount that the stop needs to be planed back (actually you do this at both sides separately as in all but the smallest drawer there'll be two stops),





Remove and plane the drawer stop accordingly,





When the fit is perfect glue-in the drawer stop,


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## woodbloke66 (9 May 2019)

MikeG.":iixstzu7 said:


> woodbloke66":iixstzu7 said:
> 
> 
> > I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin............
> ...



Yes Mike, it is a faff, agreed, but I like doing my drawers this way! Rebated runners on the drawer sides, in my very 'umble opinion is the stuff of Argos bedroom furniture (and I've just dismantled a complete old suite) and Ikea (now about to wash gob out with soap and water :lol: ) Of necessity, you have to make the drawer sides as thick as a docker's jam butty (no offence intended to any dockers) to accommodate the rebate(s) and leave enough 'meat' to provide an adequately strong drawer and then there's the inherent lateral 'slop' with twin rebates on the drawer sides. Not for me, thanks.



Jacob":iixstzu7 said:


> Looks slightly insane to me. Doesn't solve any problems, in fact introduces a big one - the bottom will move and either push the ends out or shrink and leave a gap.
> I guess Ingham had not spent much time looking at old furniture in need of repair!
> Also - looks like the bottom fitted to slots all round, but as the wear is taken on the muntin instead of the edges of the drawer sides, he can get away with this weak detail.
> A slight improvement would be to have the bottom grain going end to end as there would be less shrinkage across the narrows, and 4 slots to accommodate this, rather than two, end to end.



Yep, the illustration shows the drawer bottoms fitted into slots, but if you look at my pic above, the sides are around 7mm (and you can go to six if needed) with decent 12mm wide oak drawer slips glued in place on the sides and front, so the wear area widthon any one drawer side is about 20mm. I use decent quality, very dry CoL for most of my drawers (the one above is oak) for anything coming into contact with clothing and there isn't any shrinkage worth noting - Rob


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 May 2019)

> But the adjustable drawer stop I'm not so taken with. Given that the stop will shrink slightly and slacken the grip of the screw, it seems a banker's bet that the impact of the drawer will push the stop back over time..



Custard, you may be right ... but why I designed these stops was their adjustability. If they move, they can be adjusted. 

The reason I made them, was for the curved drawers of the Apothecary Chest. The stop you showed is what I have also done over the years. In recent years I began to make drawers with bow fronts (busy on 8 more at this time!). It was evident to me that a standard stop would be difficult to set up with curved drawer fronts.

Below is a curved drawer (which belongs to the Lingerie Chest). This did not need a stop since it uses the drawer blade for this ...






That is nice work you show, by-the-way. You always show nice work!

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## MikeG. (9 May 2019)

woodbloke66":299u94iy said:


> .......Yes Mike, it is a faff, agreed, but I like doing my drawers this way! Rebated runners on the drawer sides, in my very 'umble opinion is the stuff of Argos bedroom furniture (and I've just dismantled a complete old suite) and Ikea (now about to wash gob out with soap and water :lol: ) Of necessity, you have to make the drawer sides as thick as a docker's jam butty (no offence intended to any dockers) to accommodate the rebate(s) and leave enough 'meat' to provide an adequately strong drawer and then there's the inherent lateral 'slop' with twin rebates on the drawer sides. Not for me, thanks..........



You've misunderstood, Rob. The rebate is in otherwise- orthodox runners at the bottom of the frame opening, supporting the bottom edges of the drawer box. There is no rebate in the side of the drawers. I completely agree with you about the latter, but it's not what I was suggesting.


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## AndyT (10 May 2019)

A few years ago, I made a little five drawer bedside chest of drawers as my first go at "proper" wooden drawer construction. I used dovetails front and back, solid bottoms and planted on drawer slips. I wrote it all up at some length in the projects section as I went along.
One point came up in discussion that's not been mentioned this time round. It's the old technique of making the back of the chest very slightly wider than the front, so that drawers slide easily while fitting precisely at the front, where it shows. There's a thread on just this topic here:

fitting-drawers-wider-at-the-back-t88152.html?start=0


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## woodbloke66 (10 May 2019)

AndyT":2iewwnss said:


> A few years ago, I made a little five drawer bedside chest of drawers as my first go at "proper" wooden drawer construction. I used dovetails front and back, solid bottoms and planted on drawer slips. I wrote it all up at some length in the projects section as I went along.
> One point came up in discussion that's not been mentioned this time round. It's the old technique of making the back of the chest very slightly wider than the front, so that drawers slide easily while fitting precisely at the front, where it shows. There's a thread on just this topic here:
> 
> fitting-drawers-wider-at-the-back-t88152.html?start=0


Yep, an established technique but build Inghamish drawers and you don't need to...simples - Rob


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## Jacob (11 May 2019)

woodbloke66":36ggx74k said:


> AndyT":36ggx74k said:
> 
> 
> > A few years ago, I made a little five drawer bedside chest of drawers as my first go at "proper" wooden drawer construction. I used dovetails front and back, solid bottoms and planted on drawer slips. I wrote it all up at some length in the projects section as I went along.
> ...


Nope. Just another of those old tales which never go away. Obvious really - if it was a good idea at all then it would be much easier to make the drawers narrower instead.


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## Benchwayze (2 Sep 2019)

Benchwayze":dn4gv49n said:


> Hi GK.
> 
> You should be able to find a copy of 'Cabinetmaking for Beginners' by Charles H Hayward.
> In that book there is an easy to follow chapter on basic drawer making. What we might call a WIP or step-by-step. The drawings are also clear and easy to understand.
> ...



Shame... I am not back at home yet, but I have two or three copies of this book and you could have had one of those for a pint! But abebooks.co.uk usually have them if not eBay.

John


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