# Making a box then cutting the lid off



## gasman (27 Sep 2013)

Can I ask how most people separate the lid from the body of a box after glueing up. I'm making a large box about 450 x 360 and need to make it in one piece. I would love to take the minimum possible out of where I cut it. I do have a 1.8mm kerf table saw blade but what do others use? Too big for my bandsaw - would I trust myself to handcut it??
Thanks for any advice
mark


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## bugbear (27 Sep 2013)

gasman":3ob9sn14 said:


> Can I ask how most people separate the lid from the body of a box after glueing up. I'm making a large box about 450 x 360 and need to make it in one piece. I would love to take the minimum possible out of where I cut it. I do have a 1.8mm kerf table saw blade but what do others use? Too big for my bandsaw - would I trust myself to handcut it??
> Thanks for any advice
> mark



A lot of people use a table saw.

Handtool methods:

If you're good, you could use a handsaw. Many texts recommend marking TWO lines for this, sawing between the lines, then cleaning up to those lines.

Alternatively, you could use a plough plane with a fine (probably 1/8") blade.

BugBear


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## AndyT (27 Sep 2013)

Like BB said. 

Try it - it's scary but easier the second time. 

Holding a box still to saw it can be awkward - you will need to wedge the saw cuts on the sides you have done to avoid pinching the kerf and splitting the wood.


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## baldpate (27 Sep 2013)

Depending on how deep the lid is to be, another possible machine method is to use a fine grooving bit in a router table. The box is placed lid down on the table, and each side in turn is run against the fence, which is set so that the cutter just fails to penetrate all the way through the sides (thus leaving all four sides with just enough support that you don't need to wedge). Final parting is done with a knife or fine saw, and cleaned up with a plane.


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## memzey (27 Sep 2013)

Plunge saw with a guide rail?


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## Ian (27 Sep 2013)

I always use the bandsaw providing the box is not any deeper than 300mm. It is one of the safest and quickest methods.

I use a carbide tipped blade and it lasts a very long time otherwise a fastcut from tuffsaws does the trick.

Ian


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## marcros (27 Sep 2013)

Table saw when I had one. If I had a box to do whilst I have no operational table saw, I would probably either find somebody with one or would use the router table and a 1/8" cutter.


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## Glynne (27 Sep 2013)

Router table with a specific slitting cutter from Wealden's


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## Baldhead (28 Sep 2013)

baldpate":2135d6dl said:


> Depending on how deep the lid is to be, another possible machine method is to use a fine grooving bit in a router table. The box is placed lid down on the table, and each side in turn is run against the fence, which is set so that the cutter just fails to penetrate all the way through the sides (thus leaving all four sides with just enough support that you don't need to wedge). Final parting is done with a knife or fine saw, and cleaned up with a plane.


I use a similar method, only I don't use the router table (mines a cheapo) I believe Dodge (Roger Berwick) uses this method too.

BH


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## custard (28 Sep 2013)

Another vote for the router table. 

However, I tend to use a small straight cutter bit (2 or 3mm) and aim to work around the lid leaving a tiny sliver of wood still connecting the lid to the box, maybe 0.5mm or about 1/64" thick. I'll use an offcut that's the same thickness as the box walls to set up for this cut, it's very simple to progressively crank up the router bit until you're almost but not quite cutting right through. 

Then I'll trim through this final wafer thin layer by hand with a sharp knife and then bring the edges back to dead flat with abrasive paper stuck down to an MDF board. 

The benefit of leaving this thin sliver is because the last thing you want is the lid flapping around for the final section of the cut, which is exactly what happens if you attempt to cut all the way through in one go.

This is the method that Andrew Crawford used to recommend. I believe he now cuts the lids off on a bandsaw, but he angles the box as it passes through the bandsaw so it first engages a corner, plus he uses a very tall auxilliary fence. I think his reasoning is mainly to speed up the process during his short courses rather than a decision based on quality. However, unless you've got a very big bandsaw a very big fence and plenty of experience I'd strongly recommend you stick to the method I outlined. It takes longer, but it dramatically reduces the chances for a disastrous miss cut.


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## Phil Sewell (28 Sep 2013)

I use a router table with a slitting saw from Wealdons (1.5mm I think). I go through on 2 opposite sides, plug the groove width with a suitable thickness shim and put masking tape on the shimmed sides before doing the final 2 sides. Quicker than leaving some material to remove by hand and so far I haven't had any mishaps with this technique. My router table is a spindle moulder I removed the spindle from and mounted a router onto so it's a very solid machine, the fence is the moulder fence so again very rigid. I always make the dovetails wider where the split will be to allow for the material being removed by the router cutter. 

For a fool proof method probably a good idea to leave some box wall on to saw off with a handsaw as mentioned earlier. I have used a handsaw to cut the whole lid off but it's a bit laborious.
P.


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## gasman (29 Sep 2013)

Many thanks everyone - I will have a look at that wealden cutter - I wondered if there might be one. Bandsaw is out as its too big so I reckon I am left with handsaw or router. Brilliant to get such a comprehensive set of replies
Cheers
mark


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## AndyT (29 Sep 2013)

We do seem to have recommended every possible technique!

Just one more to stir into the mix -another hand tool option - somewhere on here there was a discussion about a slitting plane . it was fenced, like a plough, but had a very narrow cutter made from one or two teeth from a big bandsaw blade. Sorry but I can't find the discussion just now.


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## Benchwayze (29 Sep 2013)

custard":203urwsj said:


> Another vote for the router table.
> 
> However, I tend to use a small straight cutter bit (2 or 3mm) and aim to work around the lid leaving a tiny sliver of wood still connecting the lid to the box, maybe 0.5mm or about 1/64" thick. I'll use an offcut that's the same thickness as the box walls to set up for this cut, it's very simple to progressively crank up the router bit until you're almost but not quite cutting right through.
> 
> ...



Gasman
Agree entirely, but by Hand: ,

In your shoes, I would make a full size copy of the intended project in cheap softwood. Jointed with nails or screws, and practice once or twice with a sharp tenon saw.

In the past, I have flattened the edges on my planer-bed, using a medium grade paper taped to the bed.
However, I prefer going all round in one sweep with a sharp hand-plane of suitable size, to 'joint' the edges.

HTH


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## recipio (1 Oct 2016)

Found this while browsing lid cutting options. Its easy enough to separate the lid but to do so with precision and not leave any 'dips' or saw marks is hard. On a table saw I've found the best way is to cut the two long sides of the box then stick some 6mm ply on over the cuts with double sided tape and proceed to make the short cuts.The box will not wobble unlike using slips of wood in the cuts. I suspect a slitting cutter on a router table would give even better results ?


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## profchris (1 Oct 2016)

Japanese pull saw. I just scribe a line with a marking gauge and then cut along it. Minimal tidying up required, just don't rush the cut. A vice holds the opposite side to the cut, so tends to spring it apart rather than pinching it closed.


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## Chris152 (26 Oct 2018)

I'm making a test box at the moment and plan to cut the top off using a router bit (the router's in a table) and leaving a little to hold the structure, as suggested above. 
Is it easier/ safer with a 3mm bit than 2mm? Do they tend to snap being so thin? (I'm assuming you take it steady with about 3mm cuts on each pass. The wood is beech.)


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## custard (26 Oct 2018)

You'll be fine with a 2mm or a 3mm cutter, obviously 3mm gives you a bit more tolerance for sawing so that's what I'd recommend for your first go at this technique. The price you pay is that flushing down the sawn edge is a slightly longer job.

Personally, I prefer to get a coat or two of finish on the entire box before sawing off the lid. But whenever you choose saw slowly, constantly adjusting the cut to remain central, and tape in small wedges to hold the kerf open and rigid.






The mating faces of the two sawn surfaces needs to be made absolutely flawless. Many people will judge the quality of the box by the quality of this shut line, so aim for perfection. 






I often use one or a combination of two techniques.

First, if the grain is fair and the timber sweet working I'll hand plane the two mating surfaces flush. Your hand planing skills need to be pretty good to reliably pull this off. I find it easier with a slightly cambered iron,





Second, if planing will be problematic, then coat a 25mm thick board of MDF with some wide abrasive paper from an industrial sander. I think from memory mine has 120 grit on one side and 180 grit on the other side, by carefully moving the working around you'll guarantee two dead flat surfaces. It's worth putting some effort into making one these sanding boards as they last for years and are invaluable in all sorts of applications where you need absolutely precision components,





The end result should be a box lid that closes without any trace of binding and with a totally even shut line, fine quality work to this standard is fully within the scope of the home woodworker provide care is taken throughout,


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## doctor Bob (26 Oct 2018)

I'm curious as to why a 3mm cut on the table saw is too much?


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## Jacob (26 Oct 2018)

Table saw. It's a big box so there is some chance the thing will spring out of square once separated - so be prepared for a little more work! 
Yes insert kerf width slips into the cut to prevent the gap from closing up and moving in to the blade.
Sanding the edge - 2 or 3 sheets of sand paper lightly attached to a flat board. Doesn't matter if there are gaps as you will be moving it about a lot.


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## Chris152 (26 Oct 2018)

Thanks Custard. The walls of my box are 8mm thick - what thickness do I leave in the walls to keep the box's structure before sawing by hand? is 1mm - 2mm ok?

That's a beautiful box - just to keep things in perspective, this is mine so far:





I'm making it mainly to try the variation on a donkey-ear mitre shooting board I just made for future boxes (the mitres looked pretty accurate to my eye, but now they're hidden inside the box!). I meant to rout a recess for the ply to sit into but in my excitement over glueing up the mitres I forgot, but I'm carrying on anyway for practice. There's a whole lot more skills to learn in making a box - and I've not even started hinges, veneers and all that. 

Dr Bob/ Jacob - I don't have a table saw, so I'm planning to make the cut with a palm router in a table. I did the table a couple of weeks ago following Rorschasch's version and can't believe what a brilliant thing it is.


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## sunnybob (26 Oct 2018)

I use a bandsaw whenever possible.
If the box is too big for that, then whatever you have. 
Wrap a layer of masking tape all around the box, and mark the cut line on the masking tape. Press the tape very firmly to the box, it will help stop splinters on the cut.

I think a router might tear out a lot unless you have a super sharp and a very firm hand. Personally (not having a table saw) I would cut that by hand, working round each face so the saw blade was cutting into the box rather than out.
But then I would use my router sled to make the cut edges square and true.


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## ScaredyCat (26 Oct 2018)

Whenever I've done this I've used my table saw. I make a cut on one site then tape that side with blue tape so it stays closed and repeat for all the other sides. Everything holds together nicely. 


.


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## Chris152 (26 Oct 2018)

sunnybob":27eqzx0n said:


> I use a bandsaw whenever possible.
> If the box is too big for that, then whatever you have.
> Wrap a layer of masking tape all around the box, and mark the cut line on the masking tape. Press the tape very firmly to the box, it will help stop splinters on the cut.
> 
> ...



I did try using the bandsaw one time having read that option in this thread - I made a quick box just for the purpose, but it was a dreadful cut. Poor bandsaw setup/ poor user skill, probably a combination of both. And I think my cutting straight with a hand saw would be even worse!


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## sunnybob (26 Oct 2018)

Sharp blade is key for a bandsaw. Take the time to use a new blade if its a good box.

A handsaw works well, provided you have patience. I had none when I started this hobby, and I scrapped LOTS of boxes! #-o 
Now, i plan out a cut like that, i check the blade is sharp, I check the tape is covering the edge. i check every damn thing twice, and then only take a couple of gentle cuts before i check again.
I've gone from something like 4 minutes, to a quarter hour to make the cut. Its not often now that i have to bin anything :roll: 8)


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## memzey (26 Oct 2018)

When I made this box:




(my only one to date) I made an initial cut all the way around on the table saw with the top pressed against the fence. I didn’t go all the way through though and left a sliver on the inside thin enough to cut with a Stanley knife. I then tidied up the edges with a smoother (a big sanding block like Custard suggests would have been quicker I think).


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## Chris152 (26 Oct 2018)

Memzey - I followed the wip for that box and learned a lot from it. It looks great - must be pretty nerve wracking after all that work to make the final cut for the lid.

Bob - do you mean you take 4 - 15 mins for a cut by hand (which I guess you meant), or with a bandsaw? I think there were lots of mistakes when I made my only attempt with my bandsaw - too quick, 1/4" blade I'd been using for cutting turning blanks (so on a curve), didn't double check the guides... 
Cut slowly, "Like a snail on holiday." I repeat it every time I make an important cut. I might have a go the weekend on my bandsaw and fairly new 5/8 blade - it's just a trial box, and Wealdon's won't deliver the 3mm router bit til next week so I can make another.


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## memzey (26 Oct 2018)

Chris152":2jdlyfpg said:


> Memzey - I followed the wip for that box and learned a lot from it. It looks great - must be pretty nerve wracking after all that work to make the final cut for the lid.


Hi Chris. 

Yes it was a nervy step to say the least. In the end I took my time, made all the necessary preparatory steps and checked everything a number of times before making the cut. I found It was very useful having some off cuts to get the depth of cut right before going for it on the finished piece. If you can do the same I’d recommend it. 

As a note regarding the general pace of work; I’m also an amateur and not particularly blessed with skill, unlike many on here. The conclusion that I have drawn is that in order to get joints, faces, designs, or whatever just so, I need to spend as much time as it takes _me_ to get it right and not let my expectations be informed by how quickly someone with 50 years more experience than me can bang the same thing out. Point in case: the box I pictured above required 5 panels to be glued up in its construction. Each panel included edge joints which were first milled on my planer thicknesser before final finessing with a bench plane (#7). Getting each edge joint just right is an incremental process for me and it can take several minutes of planing, checking, adjusting and planing again before I get there. Watching someone like Paul Sellers is inspirational in some ways as he makes it look so easy but I’ve learnt that I can’t simply wave a plane at my stock and magically have it go my way like he can. Perhaps when I have 50 years experience under my belt it’ll be as easy for me too but in the meantime, I have to be methodical, patient and thorough in order to get the desired results. That means burning time and not feeling bad about doing so. 

Keep at it and good luck!


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## sunnybob (27 Oct 2018)

Chris, When I cut with the bandsaw, I am really bad at changing the blade for a thicker one. I use a 1/4" blade far more than I should. But I still get reasonable cuts, straight with a little sanding to make it nice. 
The bandsaw is my most used tool, I do lots of stuff on it that most people here would say cant be done. But I cut S.L.O.W.L.Y.
I dont push the work through, i just hold the wood against the teeth and let it work at its own pace.
I've discovered a trick that works very well assuming you have the top guides set pretty close to the blade;
I dont watch the cut, I watch the top bearings. If you push harder than you should, even a sharp blade deflects and the bearing starts to rotate. When you see the bearing move, stop pushing. The blade will find its way back to centre and the bearing will stop rotating. Start pushing again, but slower.
Over time you will become used to what speed to push what wood, and if you get all the way through without moving the bearing, you will be amazed how smooth that cut is even with the wrong blade in.

BUT, the blade HAS to be sharp. Dont get lazy and try to cut a bit futher to "get your moneys worth" out of a worn blade. That way lies the scrap bin.


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## Chris152 (27 Oct 2018)

Thanks fellas. I had a go with the bandsaw, and surprised myself how much better it was than the last time. Nothing like perfect - all was going well till I realised I'd allowed the box to drift slightly off the fence, on the far side of the blade. (Can you have a featherboard that side, too?) Anyway, here are the results after an initial sanding.
The good:




The bad:




And the ugly:




I have a feeling that if I keep sanding, the fit will get worse. So I might just tidy up the bit with tooth marks and hope it's out of sight on the hinge side! I'll know better next time. I'm planning to finish sanding to finer grits and try to fit hinges, again for practice. 
3mm router bit arriving Tuesday so I'll crack on with the next box ready to try that out.


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## sunnybob (27 Oct 2018)

now, if you dont have access to a drum sander, you need to make a router sled.
Lots of varieties on the tube. you can get it perfect without having to learn the skills of master carpenters.
Did you watch the bearings?


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## Chris152 (27 Oct 2018)

What's the router sled for Bob? (Sorry to be so painfully slow.) Is it to make the contact between top and bottom completely level? 

I did watch the guide bearings about half the time, I think - no movement as I looked at them, but I guess there must've been some as the box wandered a bit off the fence. I took on board your advice on speed. Before I did the cut I walked around a bit getting my head in the space Memzey described, calm and patient. I remember as a youngster learning (trying to learn) to use a Japanese calligraphy brush. Much the same.


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## sunnybob (27 Oct 2018)

A router sled is basically a poor mans drum sander. You can make any sized piece of wood dead flat. 
see this for one example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0SDvKHcL5M&t=67s

Now you have the speed issue (almost) sorted, you can work on getting the fence square to the work. Most fences have angle adjustments for fine tuning.
Heres another tutorial;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OY3oKtssZk

Once you have the fence dead on for that blade, use a vernier gauge to measure how far the front teeth of the blade is from the front edge of the top wheel.
Write that down and keep it safe. make a list for each blade you get running perfectly (I have my list taped to the back of the bandsaw).
Once I had the fence set exactly to my most used blade, I then adjusted the other blades to cut square without moving the fence each time and measured the distance.
Next time you change a blade, refer to the list, set it exactly the distance listed to the front of the top wheel, and youre good to go.


Its a bit of a faff I'm afraid, but there are so many variables with bandsaw blades that you have to cheat.


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## marcros (27 Oct 2018)

What is the drum sander of router sled for? A piece of sandpaper on a flat board or flat surface will do the job quicker than any machinery. 

A handplane is probably the textbook way, but sandpaper on MDF does perfectly well.


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## sunnybob (27 Oct 2018)

yes, sandpaper and flat board will give you a flat edge.
But will it give you that flat edge at EXACTLY 90 degrees with the EXACT same depth across all four sides of a box?
And then will it give you EXACTLY the same dimension for the lid, so that the box doesnt look like it grew on the side of a hill? #-o :shock: 8) 

I dont have hand tool skills, but I do have "work around" skills.


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## will1983 (1 Nov 2018)

The few boxes I've made in the past I've always cut the lid off with the table saw and then sanded the faces flush with a piece of sandpaper taped to the surface of the table saw.

Once I'm happy with the faces I use thin pieces of timber to line the box. The top of these sits a couple of mm higher than the main part of the box and fits inside the lid preventing it from sliding about and if done properly make it a nice friction fit. I adjust these with a block plane until the lid fits nicely together and then sand the sides in the same manner as before, this removes any tiny irregularities that may have been incurred through the face flattening process.

I'm not a trained woodworker but it's just a method I've made up for myself and has worked alright for me.














Will


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