# DIY wind turbine....



## Jameshow (3 Sep 2022)

Anyone built a wind turbine? 

With the increased energy prices now seams a good time as any to think about wind power!! 

Anyone built one?! 

Fancy building one as a project! 

My big question are is 

1) type:- rotary or vertical axis. 

Rotary is likely to be noisier but more efficient than a vertical axis. 

2) motor permanant magnet or alternator? 

PM seems more efficient as the alternator draws a current to get going. 

But alternator would be cheaper to start with something like a VW 1.0 up one for £30. 

My initial design for a vertical axis wind using 18mm plywood top and bottom plates 220 gallon barrel cut up for the rotors mounted using 48mm flange bearings on a scaffold pole axis. Gearing using a belt.

Thoughts!!


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## mikej460 (3 Sep 2022)

Small wind turbines were all the rage 15 years ago until subsequent tests proved them to be ineffective. The biggest problem is squally winds, changing direction and speed very quickly, coupled with their inability to work in strong winds. This is especially true in urban areas with roof mounted turbines. By all means have a go but don't put your shirt on it ending well.


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## dickm (3 Sep 2022)

The guy I mentioned elsewhere with regard to roof integrated turbines also designed and tested a vertical-axis variable-geometry turbine some time in the 1980s. The test site was some 200m from my office, so watched its trials with interest. It was a single blade design, and pivoted about the axle so as to adapt to different wind speeds. Being vertical-axis meant it was insensitive to wind direction and didn't need a tower structure. One downer, it was incredibly noisy, a sort of very loud whoosh, whoosh, clearly audible in my double glazed office. 
From the fact that it never seemed to reach commercial production, am guessing it wasn't a howling (!!) success. If anyone is seriously interested, message me and I'll give you his details.
Of course, if you are a classic tools guy, you might find an old Lucas Freelight mouldering in a barn somewhere, to restore and stick up in your garden. One of my relations had one in the 1950s and a big array of batteries.


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## TomW (3 Sep 2022)

I can only recall seeing them used either off grid or in semi-commercial farm settings away from anyone who'd get annoyed by them. Kris Harbour on youtube has one setup as part of an offgrid system but it's a bit rough and ready, not the kind of thing you'd have in a domestic setting.


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## Sideways (4 Sep 2022)

Power is a function of windspeed cubed.
2x the wind, 8x the power.
Strong steady winds are why they are all going offshore...

But, I get that it's appealing.
Fun as a project just don't expect useful power.
For domestic use I'd take inspiration from the little lightweight weather vane types they use on yachts to keep the battery topped up, or those elegant vertical axis slim aerofoil types as there's not so much mass to cause damage if it gets blown down. I would enjoy building one of those too.

This is interesting to read. Lessons learned from the rooftop wind lab of Boston Museum of Science.








MASSACHUSETTS: Museum of Science Analyzes Rooftop Turbines


by Marian Tomusiak, Wind Turbine Lab Analyst, Museum of Science Two years ago, the Museum of Science in Boston expanded its commitment to reducing its




irecusa.org


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## Jameshow (4 Sep 2022)

Not wanting to spend a fortune... 
This looks a possibility? 









22V / 24V DC Motor FHP Motors Ideal for Robot Wars BRAND NEW | eBay


For full item description & terms of sale, click text or arrow to the right of the screen. CONTACT US:- Our address, telephone and contact information can be found below : Click "Registered as a business seller" or "About this seller" > "Show More" > "Sellers Legal Info" We are open Mon-Fri...



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## johna.clements (4 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> Power is a function of windspeed cubed.
> 2x the wind, 8x the power.
> Strong steady winds are why they are all going offshore...



Whilst the offshore turbines will generate more power than onshore they are also more expensive to build and maintain; maybe twice as much. 


The places where the onshore wind is built tend to be in leafy areas with wealthy well connected people.


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## Spectric (4 Sep 2022)

I would have thought that offshore has to be the way to go, you can build as large as you like and in huge quantities, the biggest problem is getting all the cables on shore and terminated. On shore you must have problems with the irregular land surface which has to effect the wind, at sea you have a flat unobstructed area. To get better efficiency from any windturbine I would have thought using variable pitch blades would be an advantage, you can now match the pitch to the prevailing wind conditions and so work at higher efficiency over a wider range of wind conditions. 

As for the small domestic wind turbines I cannot see how you can make a decent one without upsetting your neighbours or needing planing permision because if you think how much power it takes to turn the alternator on a car then you are now wanting to get this energy from the wind which means large turbine blades at a reasonable height.


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## Thingybob (4 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Anyone built a wind turbine?
> 
> With the increased energy prices now seams a good time as any to think about wind power!!
> 
> ...


James how great minds think alike i gave the same idea to my daughter a couple of months ago she had built a recycled art piece for the competition on Tignmouth Prom (Moths to a flame) and wanted to light it so i sugested two catering bb cans halved then soldered togeather opposing one another in a housing of ply with opposing openings on each side conected to a cycle dynamo to power a small lamp in her exhibit , Unfortunatly she didnt have the time to build it but when i have finished my house refurb i will build one and maybee upscale it to use for lighting in workshop


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## Tris (4 Sep 2022)

A good place to start would be Scoraig wind website, Hugh Piggott has been building them since the 70s


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## johna.clements (4 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> I would have thought that offshore has to be the way to go, you can build as large as you like and in huge quantities, the biggest problem is getting all the cables on shore and terminated. On shore you must have problems with the irregular land surface which has to effect the wind, at sea you have a flat unobstructed area. To get better efficiency from any windturbine I would have thought using variable pitch blades would be an advantage, you can now match the pitch to the prevailing wind conditions and so work at higher efficiency over a wider range of wind conditions.
> 
> As for the small domestic wind turbines I cannot see how you can make a decent one without upsetting your neighbours or needing planing permision because if you think how much power it takes to turn the alternator on a car then you are now wanting to get this energy from the wind which means large turbine blades at a reasonable height.


To build offshore requires specialist crane barges and the people who use them. Those people are coming free from the oil rigs but there are limited numbers. The bigger the wind turbine the more specialist the factory to make them will be. 

On shore the bases are no different to a bridge and there are people who are experienced in erecting large steel framed structures.

There is a shortage of engineers, steel erectors, etc. Not many will be willing to go sit on a barge in the North Sea banging piles and erecting turbines on top. If there is work onshore where they can get home every night rather than once a month for a little less money many will take that.

If we want to build turbines quickly they have to be onshore.


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## sploo (4 Sep 2022)

This is one of those projects that I've wanted to do for years; not just for the potential power, but for the interest in taking it on. As MikeJ and Sideways have pointed out though; sadly the sort of small scale builds that would be realistic in a domestic setting just don't actually work that well.

If you have a field (wide open space with good wind speed), and can get something of a decent diameter (>2m blade span) a few meters in the air then you might get some decent returns. Otherwise they end up as white elephants; which is a shame as it sounds like they should be a great idea.


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## Jameshow (4 Sep 2022)

2 x 25 litre water container food water stacking strong bpa free new approved 5060847990952 | eBay


2 x 25 litre jerry can water. These 25 litre jerry cans are neat and compact and multiples can easily and neatly stack on top of each other. A versatile canister that can be used in so many areas. marine and r/o fish water safe.



www.ebay.co.uk





I have a spare one of these, that I will cut up for 4 blades screw down to 3/4 ply with self tappers.


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## Thingybob (4 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> 2 x 25 litre water container food water stacking strong bpa free new approved 5060847990952 | eBay
> 
> 
> 2 x 25 litre jerry can water. These 25 litre jerry cans are neat and compact and multiples can easily and neatly stack on top of each other. A versatile canister that can be used in so many areas. marine and r/o fish water safe.
> ...


Thats the way to start try diferent ideas see what you get who knows even if it only lights the garden its free once materials are paid for if they cost anything (recycled) , Great egg race, Scrapheap Challenge mentality . Years ago our next door neighbour was always shouting at her husband down in the shed "James Dyson are you messing with my vac again your wasting your time again"lol 
Or Cockcroft "now what can i codge up from this old ply wood, innertube and ceiling fan " 

PS James we can look for a second hand oil rig tender in a couple of years maybe


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## nickds1 (4 Sep 2022)

We looked in detail at this a few years back when doing our "eco" self-build...

I spent some time at the Centre for Alternative Technology (CAT) during the design phase and they were adamant that, at that time, it was cheaper, greener and more practical to buy "green" electricity from someone doing it on an industrial scale. They did say that if I wanted to massage my ego and have bragging rights with our friends, then sure, go ahead and install a domestic wind turbine. The issue is adding up the true end-to-end cost of the system, including manufacturing the technology & batteries, then recycling them. On a domestic scale it just doesn't make sense, especially if you want to power something meaningful, like a heat pump.

At that time I was working for someone who owned one of the largest domestic wind turbine companies in the UK - he even had one on his rather lovely Queen Anne house on top of the North Downs. It never worked reliably and the who house hummed & shook. I could have had a system cheap, but didn't do it and am glad of that.

BTW, we live on top of one of the highest points in Kent with clear views to the South West where the prevailing winds come from. The DTI UK Average Wind Speed Database is a useful tool as it gives average wind speeds for a given post code at various heights above ground level: SolarInsiders.co.uk - Wind Energy, UK Wind Speeds & Feed-in-Tariff Information (I can't find the actual DTI web page but the page I've referenced uses the DTI database).


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## Tris (4 Sep 2022)

If you just want to have a play try to source a permanent magnet washing machine motor and an old bike. Cable tie your plastic vanes to the back wheel. Swap some cogs around to get a good drive ratio and use that to drive the motor. A tripod of scaffolding poles to raise it up and hook up a multimeter to see what it will produce


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## GweithdyDU (5 Sep 2022)

No knowledge of this kind of thing so this is just for interest: I made a 12v charger out of a Yugo coolant fan and housing bolted to a tripod of long thinnish pine trunks, with the wiring going through a diode and some other stuff on a small board in a film canister (that part done by a electronics wizard chap I knew). Throw a handful of grass into the air to determine wind direction, turn tripod around to catch the wind and off you go, Charged a car battery easily and worked for many years. Where I live overlooking the Irish sea and at high altitude, the wind will often blow the same direction for days and anyway, if it does change and stays changed, just turn the tripod around again for the different storm. Not a serious attempt at going off grid and more as a bit of fun with the kids. However, it'd be quite simple to make another to charge up small devices and operate LED house lights. If it doesn't kick out enough power to do more, make two? 

On another related note, you'd think 'the powers that be' would encourage people to go off grid currently or at least generate and use the grid as a back up generator. We have a few acres of marginal land and could easily accommodate a small solar/wind/water hybrid system. Whilst a few hundred thousand others wouldn't solve the energy issues we're currently battling with, I'd like to see the figures to see if it was worth encouraging across Wales and the wider Dis-United Kingdom.


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## Scruples (5 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Anyone built a wind turbine?
> 
> With the increased energy prices now seams a good time as any to think about wind power!!
> 
> ...


When home turbines were all the rage, briefly, my neighbour decided to have a chimney-mounted vertical turbine and got to the point where he was ready tosign up, However, I read a few articles about turbines and found out that, in urban areas especially, the turbulence negated the efficiency and the power production capability. My neighbour read the articles too, and didn't sign and instead, opted for solar panels with batteries and the sell-back option. He is still pleased he did.


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## sawtooth-9 (5 Sep 2022)

Yep. Build a wind turbine and generate some power ( when the wind blows ).
Noisy, unreliable - but free, once you write off the cost of building.
Now, what are you going to do with the few "free" amps you produce ?
Will you use them at the same time as they are produced ?
If not, better get some battery storage - not cheap, not efficient and not an environmentally prudent way to go.
But I guess a few amps can warm someone.
If its a financial reason - I doubt it's worth it.
If not, what is the motive ?
Suggest this does not stack up, financially or environmentally


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## Jameshow (5 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> Yep. Build a wind turbine and generate some power ( when the wind blows ).
> Noisy, unreliable - but free, once you write off the cost of building.
> Now, what are you going to do with the few "free" amps you produce ?
> Will you use them at the same time as they are produced ?
> ...


I completely agree! 

Why - just because I can! 

Using the power in a sensible way is tricky tbh. 

The supply isn't steady and uniform which means you really need battery storage and then an inverter. The cost of which would cost 10+yrs payback.


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## Bod (5 Sep 2022)

Being in the narrowboat world, of the inland waterways, I see quite a few wind turbines, most are not working, of those that are rotating, most are just idling, only a few are at any speed.
When attached to a boat, the vibration passed down the mast is unacceptable, so the few that do work are land based, with the cable going to the boat.
The harvest from them is so low, that solar panels easily out perform them for most of the year.
The best sight I have seen was two boats moored end to end, both with turbines, one going like the clappers, fifty feet away, the other was barely moving, due to the very local wind conditions.

Bod.


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## Owd Jockey (5 Sep 2022)

One of a number of makers channels I subscribe to on YouTube is Kris Harbour Natural Building. Kris is a young chap who 7 years ago decided to move to West Wales(?) to build a house from scratch and live off grid. His videos include a number of power generating projects involving hydro, wind and solar. His posted videos over the years plot his journey. While the videos are not really 'polished' or well organised they are honest and very informative. I am still working through the videos which I only came across a few months ago. There is probably something for everyone on his site whether its traditional building technique, power generation, arboriculture, market gardening or just general homesteading off-grid



https://www.youtube.com/c/KrisHarbour/videos


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## D_W (5 Sep 2022)

If you want to build one for fun, use used stuff like a car alternator and whatever else you can get salvage Not sure on the prop, but it would seem around here and probably most places that the thing will need to specialize at low speed generation and not be destroyed by gusts. 

I had a relative who is now deceased who put a 10kw wind turbine up in the late 70s. It didn't look like the stuff made now, it was more blocky and bar stock steel type stuff. I don't know what it needed to get to its rating, probably 30 mile an hour winds, and most of the time, there wasn't enough wind to start it. I would bet that when it was running it was generally making about 10-20% of rated power and he'd invested in putting it on a 90 foot tower (that he erected, so cut cost for all of this- he was a self-made self-do kind of guy). 

Within a couple of years, I remember walking into his utility building and the pole was generally up beside the barn (or tower) and the turbine laying on its side in the shed because something broke. The difference between then and now is that solar panels cost a princely sum. if he was still alive, I'm guessing he would find the south facing side of his barn and install a solar array and tie it to the grid. He was an electronics and electrical whiz, trained in the navy, so far ahead of the average person as to cost and components. 

That said, as a project without expectations that you'll see it humming along filling your pocket, it'd be a great learning experience. The only place I see them here in the states now is coastal where the wind is pretty constant and they're usually on boats or tied to dock buildings. When they're on a building, they're kind of like a giant ...how do you say it. Vibrator? Vibrating a building like a drum.


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## Spectric (5 Sep 2022)

Don't forget that if you use a car alternator that they require excitation voltage via the charge warning lamp terminal to a positive 12 vdc supply.


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## D_W (5 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Don't forget that if you use a car alternator that they require excitation voltage via the charge warning lamp terminal to a positive 12 vdc supply.



I think a man will need to stand on carpet under the turbine, in socks, rub his feet and then see if he can give the thing a zap to make this work. 

(I don't know anything about making one of these with an alternator, just noted how many times before youtube was a retail site that people were making low speed water turbines from scratch and wind turbines with an alternator, so I'd have to defer on what they did. 

Those videos don't involve buying things so they may be very hard to find on YT where the algorithm is biased to make people think stumpy nubs is a woodworker and some guy on a sailboat telling you that he has a coupon for you to buy a turbine is an expert in making things out of salvage parts).


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## MikeK (5 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Don't forget that if you use a car alternator that they require excitation voltage via the charge warning lamp terminal to a positive 12 vdc supply.


When I converted my 1950 Ford 8N tractor from a 6V positive ground system to a 12V negative ground system, I replaced the generator with a single-wire self-exciting alternator. I can't remember the manufacturer or model, but it had a good output at low RPM and was a perfect solution for my tractor. These conversion kits are still available for the Ford 9N, 2N, and 8N tractors.


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## D_W (5 Sep 2022)

MikeK said:


> single-wire self-exciting alternator....



And my hypothetical man in socks skilled at rubbing his feet on carpet is out of a job again....


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## sawtooth-9 (6 Sep 2022)

Reminds me of the old song " There's a hole in the bucket - Dear Lisa, Dear Lisa "
Sadly, we no longer have the real "genius of power" -Nichola Tesla to show the way.
When he was with us - very few listened or wanted to know.

So what are you left with ?

Nuclear - not a popular choice - Fission or fusion

Solar - sounds good but if you truely do your research, NOT environmentally sound.

Steam - Ah, the good old favourite. Steam turbines. But you have to boil water to get steam. That requires heat. So you can get heat from nuclear, burning coal and gas or whatever fossil fuels you choose. It's still a problem for those who advocate CO2 
emissions are the cause of climate change

Wind is great if it always blew when you wanted and generation was efficient

Hydro would be great, but alas all the rivers will run dry due to climate change.

" With what will I fix it Dear Lisa, Dear Lisa
With a bucket Dear Henry, Dear Henry, Dear Henry
........
There's a hole in the bucket, Dear Lisa Dear Lisa "


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## johna.clements (6 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> Reminds me of the old song " There's a hole in the bucket - Dear Lisa, Dear Lisa "
> Sadly, we no longer have the real "genius of power" -Nichola Tesla to show the way.
> When he was with us - very few listened or wanted to know.
> 
> ...


Nuclear - Fission not a popular choice - Agreed plus without nuclear fuel recycling there is just not enough Uranium. With recycling then lots of countries have the bomb or nuclear waste is being shipped around the world.

Nuclear - Fusion not sure why you like it with fission. The only problem with it is that it has not be made to work for more than a second or two. Maybe next decade or the one after.

Solar - But is it more environmentally sound to mine rare earths than minine coal and burning it..

Steam - Can be produced by solar, wind, hydro, anything that produces electricity. You might as well say electricity. Heating water to store the unwanted energy from solar then using that hot water later to heat buildings is a thing.

Wind is more economic now than coal in Europe. We just need to start storing the energy as hot water, hydrogen etc when more is produced than required.

Hydro - climate change does not mean lower rainfall, it means change. If the world is warmer there will be more evaporation. If there is more water in the air there will be more rain. Where it rains could change which could be a problem.


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## Fergie 307 (6 Sep 2022)

D_W said:


> If you want to build one for fun, use used stuff like a car alternator and whatever else you can get salvage Not sure on the prop, but it would seem around here and probably most places that the thing will need to specialize at low speed generation and not be destroyed by gusts.


Many moons ago made one from an alternator, and a large plastic radiator fan. Mounted on a swivel on the roof of the workshop. Did a good job of keeping spare batteries topped up. Not sure it would be much good for anything else. Was still going strong when we sold up years later and left it for the new owners. Have always intended to build another one, just never got round to it.


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## Spectric (6 Sep 2022)

You missed one out @johna.clements , using less energy so rather than trying to match the demand from a lot of people just wasting a lot then aim at better efficiency. I have said before that the pricing for electricity should be tiered, if you are a sensible user then you pay less but if you are using way more than a comparable household you move onto a higher tarrif.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> You missed one out @johna.clements , using less energy so rather than trying to match the demand from a lot of people just wasting a lot then aim at better efficiency. I have said before that the pricing for electricity should be tiered, if you are a sensible user then you pay less but if you are using way more than a comparable household you move onto a higher tarrif.



At least some of California here does that. The tiers pretty much create the boundary where heavy users will seek solar contracts instead of just buying. 

I recall a member on another forum saying about 10 years ago that their bill went to $700 a month when the tiered system started, and they didn't want panels or something for various reasons. 

Well, tough, get them, anyway, if you want to use that much, or invest in a solar farm. California is a perfect case for solar in areas that aren't right in a bay where there's a mist. Cold weather in the south is uncommon and consumption pretty much parallels the sun. 

Trouble with permitting and local government there, though, in terms of getting anything at all done, but that's not exclusive to southern CA in the US. And then a few states over and if you want to build a jungle gym and put panels on it in your front yard entirely DIY, no trouble. But that's the US.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Many moons ago made one from an alternator, and a large plastic radiator fan. Mounted on a swivel on the roof of the workshop. Did a good job of keeping spare batteries topped up. Not sure it would be much good for anything else. Was still going strong when we sold up years later and left it for the new owners. Have always intended to build another one, just never got round to it.



radiator fan is an interesting idea. I vaguely recall one of the videos showing someone making a huge slow speed long diameter prop and getting 400 watts out of their setup. I think that's a novel thing, but to get 400 max even with a prop designed for slow speed suggests 1kw hr on a good day, and damage in a storm. 

A specific use for something making that much power could still be other than pointless, though. 

Years ago, a guy put a low head high volume low speed water turbine on YT. He showed the making of the entire thing (which wasn't really a beginner's product). It probably cost him $100 to make the thing and it wasn't theoretically efficient. 

However, he had it in a stream on a far end of his property where he wanted to keep a small building and a fridge without running power to it (think really rural). He showed the turbine running, which it had been doing, and the little fixes that he'd made to prevent it from getting plugged by trash or fish and said that it generated about 350 watts. It was genius for what he wanted, big crude and loosely made and robust and ran two fridges or a fridge and a freezer. 

the comments were about half amazed (I was) at the guy's ability to design something crude, simple and effective and reliable for his situation. The other half were people deriding him about the design of the turbine fins, which were pretty much a fan on the end of a rod hanging below the device, efficiency or whatever else, and how dumb he was. 

350 watts of continuous power for something made from salvage parts that's proven to literally work years mostly unattended is no joke. 

He eventually put up a revised video that was really short and didn't show the making, and then removed it entirely. 



Point in this case, most people with a 3kw air conditioner would think 350 watts is pointless. To a guy who has no grid tie for half a mile and even running it would have to pay a separate meter fee since it's not part of the residence, having 350 watts of continuous power that only involved sweat equity is just about priceless. 

He reminds me of my tinkering uncle - when someone asked him where he read about it, he said he didn't read a whole lot other than the Bible. My tinkering uncle was spatially intelligent, excellent with electronics and electrical stuff because he understood how it worked, but I'm fairly convinced he was functionally illiterate.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2022)

It's not germane to this thread, but one of the original videos i mentioned above of the low speed turbine is back up on YT, the comments are cleaned up and the guy who made the turbine shows some parts of it and mentions that it was featured on netflix "america unplugged", which may be the reason it was offline for a bit.

I was wrong about two or three years, but it was eons ago that I saw this video ( has to be close to a decade). He mentioned that the second one that he's making in the video is a replacement for the first one that lasted 13 years (!).

Netflix to me is kind of like hand tools to most people. I have it and don't use it (the wife does), so I've never heard of "america unplugged". Once a video goes from the original creator to someone else cutting it up, the result isn't usually better.

"Vertical turbine hydro generator system. Low rpm" will find the video on YT. ​


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## johna.clements (6 Sep 2022)

D_W said:


> It's not germane to this thread, but one of the original videos i mentioned above of the low speed turbine is back up on YT, the comments are cleaned up and the guy who made the turbine shows some parts of it and mentions that it was featured on netflix "america unplugged", which may be the reason it was offline for a bit.
> 
> I was wrong about two or three years, but it was eons ago that I saw this video ( has to be close to a decade). He mentioned that the second one that he's making in the video is a replacement for the first one that lasted 13 years (!).
> 
> ...


13 years is a long time to be receiving 350W for.

Price in the UK in 2017 was about 15p per KW hour.
If you assume it was working about 90% of the time that's 7.5kw per day for 13 years.
Or £1.12 per day for 13 years.
£5k worth of free electricity allowing for £100 materials and 20 hours wages at around minimum wage.
He may not have been able to use all the electricity so most likely less than this but still very good.

Seems like a very good return on the investment.


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## dickm (6 Sep 2022)

There is a burn which goes through a narrow V-shaped valley in our neighbour's garden; her father is a retired civil engineer and keeps prodding them to think about a turbine there. I did some very crude calculations which suggested possibly 500W most of the year (not this one!). Can't imagine it will ever appear, but do wonder. 
The Laird installed an Archimedan screw turbine in another local burn some 6 or 7 years ago, but it's never been a roaring(!) success and Laird himself was never an enthusiast. 
Suspect there may be some rekindling of interest in micro-hydro after the coming winter!


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## Inspector (6 Sep 2022)

burn?? For the distant relatives that have lost some of the old language, what is a burn? 

Pete


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## artie (6 Sep 2022)

Inspector said:


> burn?? For the distant relatives that have lost some of the old language, what is a burn?
> 
> Pete


It's a little bigger than a sheugh


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## Inspector (6 Sep 2022)

I had to look up sheugh. 
So if the sheugh fits it isn't a burn. 

Pete


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## Fergie 307 (6 Sep 2022)

A burn is a small sream.


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## Inspector (6 Sep 2022)

Okay I missed the part where we went from wind power to water power. 

Pete


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## sploo (6 Sep 2022)

Inspector said:


> Okay I missed the part where we went from wind power to water power.
> 
> Pete


It's just another fluid. Only a bit wetter


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## Terry - Somerset (6 Sep 2022)

Turbines operate best offshore where they are relatively unaffected by turbulence from hills, building etc. The larger they are they better the chance of them being in an uninterrupted airflow.

Small land based turbines suffer from turbulence and ground effects. If taller to minimise this, the cost of the tower relative to output becomes uneconomic. They may be useful for very remotes locations but noise and vibration makes them unsuited to urban settings.

Contrast with solar - roof mounted panels are easily absorbed into an urban environment, although output ceases at sunset.

Governments may be very happy that people are encouraged to install their own generation but I seriously wonder whether is makes real sense - is it better to adorn 250 rooftops to generate 1MW each year, or fill a single large field with several thousand PVs. 

In aggregate the output may be the same, but I would intuitively expect the investment and running cost to be very different with economies of scale on PV procurement, installation and maintenance.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Turbines operate best offshore where they are relatively unaffected by turbulence from hills, building etc. The larger they are they better the chance of them being in an uninterrupted airflow.
> 
> Small land based turbines suffer from turbulence and ground effects. If taller to minimise this, the cost of the tower relative to output becomes uneconomic. They may be useful for very remotes locations but noise and vibration makes them unsuited to urban settings.
> 
> ...



The levelized cost for freestanding commercial installation of solar in the US is 1/2 the levelized cost for rooftop. Put differently, if you could buy into a co-op that managed open ground installation and maintenance of solar arrays, you could afford to buy generation power at half the cost or buy twice as much at the same cost.

This begs the question of why do people put them on their roof tops, and I think the answer is three ways:
1) at least here, you have the right to put them on your roof and it's simple to do without coop agreements, etc, bad agents
2) People want their stuff on their roof - like "it's not safe unless I have it"
3) in a lot of semi-rural spaces here, there is opposition to solar farms because of the way they look, but not on roofs.

We (family) sold 270 acres a couple of years ago in an area that was being considered for solar farms. It's an area where there's a moratorium on anything other than residential development. In the end, the township zoning board was playing to the people on small patches and not the folks on big ones - as in, when it came to getting a variance for solar, the complaints of "I could see it looking out of my window and I don't want to" won, and we ended up selling the farm (family again, my parents generation owns it. Not sure why I"m using the word we!!) to a couple of amish farmers.

A couple of farmers also voiced objection to the loss of rentable ground to grow corn (which gets wasted about 50% on ethanol fuel here that nobody wants and makes far less sense from an energy perspective) and soybeans. "you'll take good farm ground out of circulation if you start putting solar on it" with claims that we'll have some kind of risk.

The reality is that when I calculated the energy output of an acre of solar, it was 327 times more energy dense than ethanol on a gross basis (without considering the energy used on inputs for ethanol). If 1% of the ethanol acres of corn were placed into freestanding solar, the net increase in energy production would be more than 4 times that of leaving all 100% in corn. Our ground wasn't great ground, either, but I guess the amish farmers will amend it - given a generation or two, they are able to take naturally poor areas and make the soil better than it would ever be in nature.

Common to see the Mennonites nearby put up a freestanding array in their yard away from trees and roofs (<$1000 a kw), but they're a little more practical than the average person.

(lest anyone think that's a bash on farmers - the land was in the family for more than 125 years....for farming. Or half of it was, and the rest was added...for farming. The reality in the US is that it's marginal enough ground that it shouldn't be used to grow waste food, but the sun wouldn't know that it's marginal ground).


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## D_W (6 Sep 2022)

But that figure is important to bring up if you're ever somewhere and zoning is discussed. Freestanding solar is economically viable on its own and cheaper as a per kw/hr energy source than almost anything else. Rooftop residential costs twice as much.


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## Thingybob (6 Sep 2022)

D_W said:


> At least some of California here does that. The tiers pretty much create the boundary where heavy users will seek solar contracts instead of just buying.
> 
> I recall a member on another forum saying about 10 years ago that their bill went to $700 a month when the tiered system started, and they didn't want panels or something for various reasons.
> 
> ...





Inspector said:


> Okay I missed the part where we went from wind power to water power.
> 
> Pete


Wait till you get further along the thread were on to solar next weeks installment Wave Power.


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## johna.clements (6 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Turbines operate best offshore where they are relatively unaffected by turbulence from hills, building etc. The larger they are they better the chance of them being in an uninterrupted airflow.
> 
> Small land based turbines suffer from turbulence and ground effects. If taller to minimise this, the cost of the tower relative to output becomes uneconomic. They may be useful for very remotes locations but noise and vibration makes them unsuited to urban settings.
> 
> ...



You have to factor in the cost of building something into the economics. Also as I noted before we have a far greater capacity to build onshore wind as opposed to offshore. The reason we build offshore is there are few people there to object.

Wind Europe

"Wind energy is the cheapest source of electricity generation​
[Published 29 March, 2019]


Wind energy is today the cheapest source of electricity generation in majority of places in the world. Unsubsidized onshore wind energy is cheaper than any other energy source, including conventional power generation sources such as coal and gas."









Economics | WindEurope


Wind energy is the cheapest source of electricity generation [Published 29 March, 2019] Wind energy is today the cheapest source of electricity generation in majority of places in the world. Unsubsidized onshore wind energy is cheaper than any other energy source, including conventional power...



windeurope.org





From Pablo Hevia-Koch & Henrik Klinge Jacobsen* Preprint of Energy Policy 125 (2019), p. 9–19. doi.org/10.1016/j.enpol.2018.10.019


""This paper shows three different approaches for calculating acceptance costs for onshore wind energy in
Denmark and using these levels to create a cost curve for the expansion of wind energy capacity. 
Afterwards, we compare these cost curves for onshore wind energy to cost levels for offshore wind
energy in Denmark. 
We find that method (A), utilising data from the compensation scheme, green fund allocations, offering of
20% of the project locally, and required property purchases; indicates that for most of the available
expansion capacity, onshore wind is cheaper than offshore wind even when considering acceptance costs.
With a sharp increase of onshore costs at high levels of capacity, associated with the necessity of buying 
more, and more expensive, properties. These acceptance costs are only local, thus largely restricted to the
population living in the specific areas (less than 10 km2) where wind turbines will be installed. When 
considering the large nation-wide expansion of onshore wind, there will be significant amounts of people
affected, but only a few people for each turbine. 
Also from a local acceptance costs perspective, method (B), based on a revealed preference study (Jensen 
et al., 2014), presents similar local acceptance cost estimates to method (A), when applied to an 
equivalent amount of households, although slightly lower. From this estimated curve, similar conclusions 
are drawn: onshore wind has an economic advantage over offshore wind for most of the wind capacity
expansion range studied. 
Utilising method (C), we obtain estimates for acceptance costs both at a local scope and a national scope, to be used as bounds for acceptance costs that will vary depending on the level of aggregation of the measure. The lower estimate (local perspective as defined by method (A)), has cost estimates that are slightly lower, but similar to the costs obtained by methods (A) and (B); and with similar conclusions. The higher estimate, on the other hand, is a cost curve at an extremely high level, much higher than the adjusted offshore cost curve utilised in this study, which was expected due to the overestimating nature of the aggregation done. Based on the dimension of the range obtained, the fact that methods (A) and (B) are, while more accurate, ignoring the willingness to pay of the broader population to avoid turbines onshore; and the recent downwards development of offshore cost, it is much harder to conclude with certainty the absolute cost advantage of onshore wind versus offshore wind, as well as the specific crossover point. The main part of the onshore capacity available will be cheaper considering only thelocal acceptance costs but depending on how much of the estimated willingness to pay from the larger Danish population is included, larger parts of the onshore potential will be at cost levels that are matched by offshore potential""



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330799926_Comparing_offshore_and_onshore_wind_development_considering_acceptance_costs


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## Inspector (6 Sep 2022)

Thingybob said:


> Wait till you get further along the thread were on to solar next weeks installment Wave Power.


   

Pete


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## Ollie78 (6 Sep 2022)

I saw a thing a few years ago where they had designed small vertical turbines (about the size of a 55 gallon drum) which were placed next to motorways using the wash from the lorrys and cars to generate electricity. Seemed like a good idea to me given how many miles of road we have, not seen any yet, probably not enough profit in it. Just thinking those turbines were quite home makeable in design.

Ollie


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## D_W (6 Sep 2022)

Levelized Cost Of Energy, Levelized Cost Of Storage, and Levelized Cost Of Hydrogen


Lazard, the world’s leading financial advisory and asset management firm, advises on mergers, acquisitions, restructuring, capital structure and strategy.




www.lazard.com





Here is an updated list (well, already near a year old) of sources in the US. Gas combined cycle and coal may be cheaper here, but solar shouldn't be too much different, as well as wind. 

Solar commercial installation and wind are close to each other - not sure what the waste stream will be for wind as that's getting some publicity here. Dealing with huge out of commission composite parts. 

Interesting stat in the middle of the chart showing the ongoing cost of nuclear and combined cycle gas vs. levelized new construction. Basically, gas and nuclear are cheap if the plant is already there. Not so much if they're new or someone tries to make them green (some initiative to include 20% hydrogen in gas generation? Drastically increases the costs 2-3x). 

Gas generation cost will probably be going up here a little as gas contracts have doubled to quadrupled over the last several years depending on what time period they're compared. 

The interesting challenge here, calculate levelized cost of self installed wind or solar - I haven't tried this. Just relayed earlier that a 10kw generator for a relative (wind turbine) on a 90 foot tower was no bueno.


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## johna.clements (6 Sep 2022)

Sweden seems to be in the lead with installed wave energy.


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## johna.clements (6 Sep 2022)

D_W said:


> some initiative to include 20% hydrogen in gas generation?


 Hydrogen can be added to natural gas, and if it is a low proportion existing cookers and boilers (furnaces) can be used without modification. I think it is quite a bit less than 20%, If I recall correctly less than 10%. They are selling boilers now that can use a higher portion of hydrogen. 

It is a good way of making use of unwanted solar and wind, turn it into hydrogen, which stores the electricity, and burn it latter. Better to just use the electricity if it is need there and then but if not its seems like a good idea. Germany has been injecting hydrogen into there natural gas in some cities for a few years, I assume as test projects.


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## Thingybob (6 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Sweden seems to be in the lead with installed wave energy.


Told you Pete just got the day wrong


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## D_W (6 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Hydrogen can be added to natural gas, and if it is a low proportion existing cookers and boilers (furnaces) can be used without modification. I think it is quite a bit less than 20%, If I recall correctly less than 10%. They are selling boilers now that can use a higher portion of hydrogen.
> 
> It is a good way of making use of unwanted solar and wind, turn it into hydrogen, which stores the electricity, and burn it latter. Better to just use the electricity if it is need there and then but if not its seems like a good idea. Germany has been injecting hydrogen into there natural gas in some cities for a few years, I assume as test projects.



Ahh...makes sense. Thanks. I hadn't thought about that and haven't looked at the LCOE stats in a while. As you mentioned above, several years ago, onshore wind was ahead of everything.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2022)

Just noticed that LCOE for rooftop solar as I mentioned earlier - I was off. I think I read that in an article, that residential installation is double the cost. It's potentially 2-6 times as costly.


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## johna.clements (6 Sep 2022)

Retro fitting solar panels on small roofs is bound to be expensive. No economies of scale in the installation and less chance to fine tune the components. 

It should get slightly better for residential when solar is fitted as buildings are built.


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## Jameshow (6 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Retro fitting solar panels on small roofs is bound to be expensive. No economies of scale in the installation and less chance to fine tune the components.
> 
> It should get slightly better for residential when solar is fitted as buildings are built.


But it's mine so I can tell all the neighbours I'm GREEN!!!


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## D_W (7 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Retro fitting solar panels on small roofs is bound to be expensive. No economies of scale in the installation and less chance to fine tune the components.
> 
> It should get slightly better for residential when solar is fitted as buildings are built.



My opinion, the process here is cumbersome, technically and following regulations. That leads to people paying installers to do everything for them from start to finish, which probably doesn't need to be. The cost of the installed array ends up being several multiples of the materials used because the installers prefer to have the customer lease the system so that they can compare the "lease payment" to electric rates instead of talking about the cost of the system at all. 

The lease agreement is then sold on the secondary market to investors and the installer who already charged a huge price for installation is also keeping a margin from selling the lease to a pooler. 

All of that is avoided on an engineered site - aside from doing all of the planning once. More than a decade ago when a 3kw array (on the house) was about $25k, a freestanding simple array with grid tie-in 3 times the size was about $10k if self-installed. 

I don't know what one loses doing self-installation, it may cancel tax breaks here. The last salesperson who passed here told me that I would not be allowed in my suburban township to install the panels myself, which is probably true in an urban county - you can't just do non-permitted alterations to dwellings other than reconditioning and refitting what's already there. Lot isn't big enough to self-install a freestanding array, and zoning makes it hard on 1/4 to 1/2 acre lots to have enough relief from property lines. Antiquated rules (building, separate garage and two small maintenance sheds allows with a lot of latitude. Anything else, not so much).


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## johna.clements (7 Sep 2022)

@D_W We do not have zoning in the UK. Local government make a development plan but it is not set in stone (somebody can correct me if I am wrong).
Every development is decided on its own merits, which does mean that you can not be sure what will be accepted but anything reasonable could in theory. You could build an office building (maybe a small factory) in a residential area if it blended in and would not disturb the neigbours with traffic, parking issues, noise and fumes. If the building is in a historic area it will be a lot harder and more expensive to comply with the requirements but you could build an office building next to a four hundred year one if the outside matched.

You would be able to install your own panels if you got the required permissions and inspections. Things like electrics require a qualifications to make the conections and final inspections. But you could pull all the cable, fix cabinets etc (all the labour jobs) and the qualified electrician does all the connections.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> @D_W We do not have zoning in the UK. Local government make a development plan but it is not set in stone (somebody can correct me if I am wrong).
> Every development is decided on its own merits, which does mean that you can not be sure what will be accepted but anything reasonable could in theory. You could build an office building (maybe a small factory) in a residential area if it blended in and would not disturb the neigbours with traffic, parking issues, noise and fumes. If the building is in a historic area it will be a lot harder and more expensive to comply with the requirements but you could build an office building next to a four hundred year one if the outside matched.
> 
> You would be able to install your own panels if you got the required permissions and inspections. Things like electrics require a qualifications to make the conections and final inspections. But you could pull all the cable, fix cabinets etc (all the labour jobs) and the qualified electrician does all the connections.



Zoning pretty much works the same way, except it starts with a list of permissions. If zoning allows it, you can just do it. If zoning doesn't allow it, then you go through a permitting process (requesting a waiver) and you may be able to do it, anyway. The considerations will be similar to what you say and the zoning board holds a hearing for waiver applications. 

If you request a waiver, then your neighbors and others can come in and express their concerns, you express yours and the board makes a decision. Depending on where you are, they are pretty reasonable. In my township, they are reasonable. The neighbor who just moved in two years ago is retiring as a massage therapist (a real one, not some shady kind of thing ..you know what i mean) and wanted to stop her commercial practice but treat patients in her basement. This would not be allowable in a housing development because it's commercial and it involves considerations like traffic and parking. 

they let us know they were going to apply for a waiver, and since they are across from us, we told them we wouldn't object as long as the clients parked in their driveway off street. They agreed, and it's been no issue -I've noticed it even less than I'd have considered. 

Historical areas can be much more difficult, as you say. I grew up in one - and by now, most of the people who live in them are on board with the local restoration board, but it can cause some friction when a "big supporter" suddenly has something that will cost them money and they feel entitled to an exception. 

Can't speak for california or NY. It may not be so easy. 

Where the local codes come in with things like panels or installing your own heating system or electrical is preventing people from doing unpermitted work on their own leaving problems for the next buyer. I can't say I mind that. I took the salesperson at their word but doubt that it's completely impossible for me to install panels or do much of the work, I'd just have to read the rules and get another contractor involved. Attempting to ignore the rules and just do it without inspection or qualified sign-off would be a bad idea at sale of the house, though.


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## Dabop (7 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Retro fitting solar panels on small roofs is bound to be expensive. No economies of scale in the installation and less chance to fine tune the components.
> 
> It should get slightly better for residential when solar is fitted as buildings are built.


Actually, having experience with both 'solar farms' and residential rooftop in Australia, the solar farms (at least here) struggle against residential rooftop- they need large areas of land (not an issue here) BUT the places where large areas are cheap- isn't where the people are- and also doesn't have the large power infrastructure needed to handle the high outputs from them- meaning their costs initially and for maintenance go way up

Another factor in favour of residential rooftop is that it is a diffuse, non centralised source- spread out over towns hundreds of km apart, meaning that a localised event doesn't take out a chunk of your power generation- a thunderstorm over a solar farm can take out a large chunk of generation because it is all tightly clustered, where a thunderstorm over one town leaves others still in bright sunny weather and still generating power

Another advantage is that because it is decentralised, capacity upgrades don't need to happen as often- the town I used to live in back in the 1980's had its feeder and substation was near maxing out with the towns growth, and they were saying they were going to have to expand it by the mid 1990's- today that feeder is STILL at the same capacity, despite the towns population having grown by over four times- because of the mid 1990's growth in rooftop solar was assisting the feeder in supplying the towns needs... A feed that was nearing critical is still in use a quarter of a century later- because the decentralised nature of rooftop residential solar assisting in the load
Larger solar installation companies still mange to get bulk purchasing power in comparison to individuals, so the 'high costs' in relationship to solar farms tend to not be as much as many might think as well- back when I was doing gridties as well, the mob I was working for used to buy in bulk- a dozen container loads at a time- at a cost per panel far less than an individual could manage- and also driving down the installation prices dramatically....
Before covid, we were down to $2500 Au for a 6.6kw system, and occasionally you could even get one for under $2000 installed, they are slowly coming back down, but are still around the same price they were back in 2016 when we had ours installed, in the $3500 bracket a 6.6kw system here will generate around 30-35kwh a day and will cover most houses needs (in the UK, your insolation levels are a bit lower, but still high enough to generate a fair proportion in many cases)


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## Terry - Somerset (7 Sep 2022)

The popularity of roof mounted PVs in the UK may simply be a result of very small plot sizes which precludes ground level installation. On a roof it is far less vulnerable to general damage, theft and electrical safety risks.

In the US, outside of city centres, I would guess that a typical plot size is much larger than in the UK.


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## Dabop (7 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The popularity of roof mounted PVs in the UK may simply be a result of very small plot sizes which precludes ground level installation. On a roof it is far less vulnerable to general damage, theft and electrical safety risks.
> 
> In the US, outside of city centres, I would guess that a typical plot size is much larger than in the UK.


Another factor for many here in Australia, is that most dust is carried within a metre or so of the ground, so ground based panels tend to get dirty faster- my own here (temporary ground based) require cleaning about once a month or so, where rooftop ones like I had at the old place we went four years with only one cleaning (after a bushfire covered them in ash, got to within a kilometre of the house...) and even then we just hosed them off from the ground...


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## Fergie 307 (7 Sep 2022)

johna.clements said:


> Nuclear - Fission not a popular choice - Agreed plus without nuclear fuel recycling there is just not enough Uranium. With recycling then lots of countries have the bomb or nuclear waste is being shipped around the world.
> 
> Nuclear - Fusion not sure why you like it with fission. The only problem with it is that it has not be made to work for more than a second or two. Maybe next decade or the one after.
> 
> ...


fusion could potentially answer all our problems, but as you say progress has been painfully slow. I recall Brian Cox stating that we spend more on mobile phone ring tones than on research into fusion, a damning indictment of our society. Surely just the sort of project that screams out for international co operation and funding.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> fusion could potentially answer all our problems, but as you say progress has been painfully slow. I recall Brian Cox stating that we spend more on mobile phone ring tones than on research into fusion, a damning indictment of our society. Surely just the sort of project that screams out for international co operation and funding.



I've talked to a former fusion researcher (now retired, ended up bouncing out and going to private industry when the shine researching it wore off) and he said about 15 years ago that he though fusion was long off. And then about five years later, he wasn't so sure, but he did say that he felt like it would be Russia or China who made it viable.


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## sploo (7 Sep 2022)

I believe the standard answer to the question of "when will we have commercially viable fusion power?" is "twenty years after you fund it properly". That said, I've heard that answer for a long time now.


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