# Spindle Moulder Advice



## rhrwilliams (11 Dec 2014)

Hi all, I was dead set on buying a spindle moulder , so I've found one at a good price (£400) (its a Startrite T30) but I'm now having second thoughts and was wondering if anyone could clear up a few questions I have...

I primarily want the spindle moulder for a house renovation I'm doing . need lots of coving (Timber not plaster), lots of skirting and lots and lots and lots (and lots) of panelling. I am also making doors etc but will not need the spindle for them as they are simple victorian 4 panel ones and I've done them so far with a router and jigs. 

I assumed the tooling would be chepish - but from my internet research it is not as cheap as I thought for tooling and now I'm having second thoughts ..... 

Am I correct in thinking that I could buy the following and be reasonably ready to go ;

- a Whitehill Universal block (£95) 
- A set of cornice cutters and limiters (£110) .....such as from http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogu ... =1&c2id=15 
- Any other cutters / Limiters I need e.g for skirting (roughly £100 ?)

So after the spindle purchase, I would be in for roughly £300 for a block and 2 big sets of cutters ? (I am also booking myself if I get the spindle on a course on using it as I'm worried about safety as I've not used one before)

Thanks


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## RobinBHM (11 Dec 2014)

As youve realised, a spindle is a hugely versatile machine.........with lots of cutter blocks and cutters.

There are a few standard moulding cutters that would be suitable for skirting and panel moulds. Wealdon tools, axminster etc stock them. Whitehill also do some ogee and torus cutters for a universal block. Standard cutters probably start at about £35.00 for cutters and limiters.

I would probably think about doing your own mouldings that are possible within the range of one moulding block to keep costs realistic. I dont think I would buy cornice cutters and block -its lot to invest for one moulding.

Also consider that a power feed is key to achieving a good finish when running out mouldings.

Training -a very wise idea for a spindle moulder.

A Startrite spindle moulder is certainly a good quality machine able to produce quality work.


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## doctor Bob (11 Dec 2014)

a standard universal block won't take the coving cutters. You will need a bigger block 100mm high. I don't know if a T30 will take a block that size and it may well be under powered.
I run a 100mm block on a 7hp machine, my 4hp berg 2 struggles a bit on big cutters.


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## Jacob (11 Dec 2014)

Many mouldings are actually cheaper off the peg compared to the cost of the wood bought sawn. So unless you want to copy something very specifically, it's not necessarily a good idea to DIY.
If you do want to copy then you get into expensive tooling, unless you make your own cutters when it becomes very cheap - cheaper than router cutters. But this isn't for everybody.

yes and power feed is more or less essential for good quality of work and safety


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## rhrwilliams (12 Dec 2014)

All thanks for the input , this forum is great for stuff like this . 

Taking on board what's been said , I think I am best to pass on the spindle and buy in the bits I need like coving and skirting . When you factor in all the tooling , the tuition course and the fact that the machine may struggle anyway to do the big moulds , AND I would have to buy a power feed , just seems like too much for me at the moment . I may be out of my depth 

Realistically I can do the panneling and other bits on my router table anyway . If I do need a spindle for a one off job I have a friend with one which I could utilise for a few hours . That seems to be the sensible option . 

Thanks all 

Richard


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## RogerS (12 Dec 2014)

Don't be put off by some of the disinformation above. Doctor Bob talks a lot of sense. 

On the other hand, ignore the statement that bespoke cutters are expensive...it's not that expensive especially when you factor in that you are getting something that matches existing stuff.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2014)

RogerS":1ba1ph2q said:


> Don't be put off by some of the disinformation above. Doctor Bob talks a lot of sense.
> 
> On the other hand, ignore the statement that bespoke cutters are expensive...it's not that expensive especially when you factor in that you are getting something that matches existing stuff.


Get a price and make your own mind up. Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.


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## RogerS (12 Dec 2014)

Jacob":2hjd0lup said:


> RogerS":2hjd0lup said:
> 
> 
> > Don't be put off by some of the disinformation above. Doctor Bob talks a lot of sense.
> ...



Not to worry, Jacob. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it eventually.


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## deema (12 Dec 2014)

The three machines that I use the most in order are, Table saw, Planer Thicknesser and the Spindle moulder. 

Standard tooling is very cheap if you compare it to router bits and bobs IMO, especially if you can use 40mm cutters where replacements cutters can be as little as £10 for a pair. If you have a spindle moulder you can create your mouldings of any shape you really want, cornice moulding really needs a large spindle moulder and the Startrite is probably not the right machine for this type of work. Standard blocks come up all the time on auction WEB sites at very affordable prices, but before you rush out and buy any read and digest the Spindle Moulder handbook. It's an expensive book, but for anyone contemplating a machine its IMO imperative reading. 
I would stay away from second hand cutters, a dull cutter is an appendidge remover! Serrated blocks and cutters are also best avoided for anyone new to the machine.

I would personally put the extra cash for the new block and cutters into getting the biggest machine that you can accommodate. The bigger the table, the heavier the machine and the more solid the fences the better. A big motor is also a big must. Tilting arbours are great, but for hobby / occasional use not really worth it, as the machines cost a lot more. 

A nice Sedgwick SM3 or better still a SM4 (I've never had a problem running a 100mm tall block on a single phase SM4ii) should be within your budget, great honest machines with little to go wrong, no twinkly bits, so take a little longer at first to setup (until you get a feel for the machine) and hold their value. I used to manually feed stuff through the spindle by hand, however one day I made a silly mistake and was lucky not to have a serious accident. I've since invested in the biggest power feed I could find, and this IMO takes the worry out of using the machine. Your hands never ever get close to the blades. Again, power feeds hold their value well, if you decide to get one try to buy the biggest industrial one you can afford. 

Over the years with patience and a certain amount of luck I've managed to collect every block I will ever need for a very small investment, most blocks have been £10~£30, and believe I've spent far less on cutters than if I'd gone down the router table route.

I also have a half set of hollows and rounds moulding planes and a no 45 universal plane (mainly to cut th rebates before you use the H&Rs). With these I can just about replicate any traditional skirting or cornice moulding. The addition of a couple of Snipe Bill planes would make it possible to do anything I've seen. This is an alternative route you may not have considered. It takes a little practice and a long bench to make skirting and cornice mouldings, great cardio work out, but very satisfying. I've seen half sets if H&R sell for c £250 (Skew bladed sets are not necessary unless your cutting across the grain, they are rarer and sell for a higher price) and a no 45 with a full, set of cutters for c£45 recently on auction WEB sites.


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## RobinBHM (12 Dec 2014)

For cutter profiling, Ive found this company reasonable and very quick.

http://cutterprofilers.co.uk/html/cutte ... _list.html

It is certainly true to say a spindle moulder wont save money machining standard softwood skirtings, panel beads etc. One of the problems would be buying joinery grade softwood at a reasonable price, the cost from a local timber merchant is likely to be not much different to the cost of a finished moulding. Also good timber merchants will machine mouldings from grade 1 or 2, so virtually knot free, whereas joinery PAR, the only option for the general user to buy will be the lower grades of unsorted or possibly fifths. 

For bespoke mouldings and for creating mouldings in hardwood a spindle moulder can be a great addition to a keen hobbyist woodworker. I wouldnt consider using a spindle moulder without a power feed, I dont consider it a very useful machine without one (or very safe). 

Spindle tooling can be hugely expensive, with a collection of worth many times the cost of the machine itself. Having said that, a lot can be done with a universal block and a rebate block.

Does anybody know where the standard cutter profiles originated? Ive always thought they are a weird collection that has a limited practical application.


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## RogerS (13 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":202oavwa said:


> .....
> Does anybody know where the standard cutter profiles originated? Ive always thought they are a weird collection that has a limited practical application.



+1. A stranger set would be hard to come by !!


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":18hms81a said:


> ....
> Does anybody know where the standard cutter profiles originated? Ive always thought they are a weird collection that has a limited practical application.


By and large designed by people who have never looked at any trad joinery.
They are quite easy to tweak however and it's only a short step from there to making your own. To tweak them you need a 6" bench grinder with ons square and one round edge at 1/2" wide, and ditto at 1/4". They don't have to match exactly and it's OK (within reason) to have just one cutter cutting and the other balancing


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## doctor Bob (13 Dec 2014)

Jacob":92bxflc0 said:


> They don't have to match exactly and it's OK (within reason) to have just one cutter cutting and the other balancing




also you could drive down the M1 doing this







............. however I wouldn't recommend it unlike some


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## RogerS (13 Dec 2014)

Jacob":dwiscy7n said:


> .... Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.





Jacob":dwiscy7n said:


> ....They don't have to match exactly and it's OK (within reason) to have just one cutter cutting and the other balancing



Make your mind up, sunshine.


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## deema (13 Dec 2014)

Perhaps it just me, but I've found the standard cutters to cover the vast majority of anything you need to do. A little imagination and sometimes more than one run through with different cutters is required, but most moulding I've found can be created with a combination of what's available. 

Jacobs point of modifying cutters / making your own used to be stabdard practice nit that long ago for any joinery shop. A simple balance was used to ensure that the balancing cutter was equal in weight. Generally only one cutter was profiled on the grinder as making two that matched was next to impossible. 

If only I'd a little more room, the usual cry I know, I would have invested in a profile grinder. They seem to pop up fairly regularly on an auction site and that would be liberating. 

With the exception of dedicated window tooling, all of the other blocks, groovers, wobble saws, planing, cill profiling blocks etc I have with patience picked up for less than £50 each on auction sites / closing down wood shops etc.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2014)

RogerS":3o52bu5g said:


> Jacob":3o52bu5g said:
> 
> 
> > .... Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.
> ...


You haven't understood what I was saying Roger, as usual. 
Copy machined cutters should be identical to each other, but are sometimes not quite spot on with the sample moulding being copied. It's quite easy to fine adjust _one_ of them to match the profile exactly (offering it up etc) but not easy to match _the other one_ by hand and eye so that they both cut the same. 
The traditional tried and tested solution is to have just one cutting and the other as close as possible but effectively just balancing, not cutting, or perhaps just cutting a bit.
You might get the hang of it eventually Roger, if you did a bit more spindle work, payed more attention and stopped playing with yourself on the back row.


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## RogerS (13 Dec 2014)

Jacob":qwsnkpal said:


> RogerS":qwsnkpal said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":qwsnkpal said:
> ...



Spare us the puerile ad hominem attacks. Adds nothing to the discussion.

I'd be very interested to hear what Whitehill have to say about your whacky theory regarding machined cutters.


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## blackrodd (14 Dec 2014)

As part of my trade, I was taught making spindle moulder cutters from hss steel, which came in various lengths and widths, this was supplied by Drabble and sanders.
They supplied our 30" and 24" planer, thicknesser blade steel, which were ground on a hand fed slide , gently!
The spindle moulder cutters were cut, and made, free hand, to the profile and then the cutting bevel. again freehand, was ground. All the machinists were taught this and a year in the saw doctors.
Whilst grinding, the cutter was frequently dipped in the water trough between the grinding wheels, this was to ensure that you didn't burn the steel or you're fingers. 
It is possible to make a pair in this way that looked, to the human eye, to be a perfect match, which is good enough for me!
We sometimes stacked whitehill cutter blocks, a 6" cove cutter had a 2" block at the bottom bed height, then 2" spacers, then another 2" block above.
All in with whitehills recomendations on safety,etc
Sometimes, we would plane up lengths of 8"x 6", mould the edges and cut the sides off, on top of the planer and back on the spindle for the top and bottom bevels.
As mentioned not all cutters were made in pairs especially for a couple of lengths, we would pick a "mate" and just have one doing the work, the cutter sharpness and feed speed coupled with decent joinery quality softwoods or good Quality hardwoods.
we supplied part and complete shopfronts, Building societies, banks, that were listed. Windows in Arligton Court, etc.
And my one claim to fame will be moulding the knave column's, in english oak, for Exeter cathedral Had to take the planer out of the shop, it was in the way, and took 10 men to carry, lift and feed on the spindle.

I use a false fence very frequently, helps stop breaking out, so less saw/wobble saw passes and planting a packing piece or pieces to replace material removed, and keep the workpiece stable.
As with the overhand planer, NEVER,NEVER pass you're hands over the cutter blocks, then it's nigh on impossible to come to grief. I never had a power feed for safety, or otherwise, Always mould the biggest piece of wood, then cut it off, whenever possible etc. 
Think the safest, easiest way and keep those pinkies away.
In the days before the americans, followed by other's, created the need for push sticks and pushing blocks etc when you just shouldn't be pushing towards or anywhere near the cutter blocks on planers or spindle's. I think the Shaw guard is the best safety feature on the spindle, and it also keeps the workpiece in place Safely.
Just look at their saw bench practices, no crown guard and no riving knife, every one an accident waiting to happen.
Please excuse those amongst us who served a 5 year apprenticeship on wood working machinery, we were taught safety all day, everyday, Then you really start to learn, on you're own, out of apprenticeship and supposed to know what you are about! 
So please be ready to be spending a year perfecting you're cutter making skills and invest at least another year using the saw bench, planer thicknesser and spindle moulder safely and changing the blades sucessfully etc
In the saw shop, I spent a happy year, making and sharpening planer irons, handsaws, 6' circular saws, 5" wide bandsaws up to 34' long with teeth up to 2 1/4" long. cut with a fly press, the joining ends taper ground and then draw filed over 2 1/2"-0" and brazed and then the fun of filing everything smooth, flat and a test run on the Stenner, looking for jumping, and hoping for close on perfect alignment, before swaging, side dressing and sharpening.
For those of you still awake, I'm going. Regards Rodders


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2014)

blackrodd":1murncwq said:


> A....
> For those of you still awake, I'm going. Regards Rodders


Still awake Rodders! Very interesting stuff.
I rate the power feed however - especially for small stuff - you can poke glazing bars through all day long - every one perfect and your fingers never nearer than 12" to the cutters. And I'm attached to me push sticks - particularly with shaw guards as you can poke the workpiece very close in and still be safe.


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## Peter Sefton (14 Dec 2014)

Great post Rodders.

I am not sure if Saw Doctors is still taught to any great extent, it seems like one of those trades that might go by the way side (which is a real shame)

With the enforcement of the limited cutter tooling, self grinding has become all the more difficult! Trying to match up two cutters and limiters within 1.1mm takes a fair old time and is catered for so well by the CNC machines.

I am a real advocate of the power feed and with updated regulations and advice last month I see the HSE are advising the use of the feed units as well.

We use it all the time in preference to the shaw guards and also use it with just one wheel for curved work in either the horizontal or vertical position.

This is an article I wrote three years ago and forms a part of our short wood machining course, which I put together to try and show some of the safe techniques and machine setting up for woodworkers.

http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... rticle.pdf


Cheers Peter


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## blackrodd (14 Dec 2014)

Peter, as you say, the saw doctor won't be very busy now with circular saws, now that TCT blades are so common place and cheap.
Laser welding has helped as the old method of brazing teeth and then grinding to the finished item was rather labourious, and very costly.
The need to re tension the old steel circular saw blades is a thing of the past, but I would think that the bigger bandsaw blades will need looking after, keeping the crown's shape, which, after all keeps the blade tracking and running even. And the steel's tension, should the saw blade over heat by material jamming the in the guide.

If I may say so, that's a Really good and practical article you have written there on using the spindle moulder 
I have often thought that EVERY spindle moulder sold should come with tuition just like that, getting the best from you're equipment and the need for safety, as these tools can really bite.
Here's Some scary stuff, years ago, to maximise feed speed and production, on some planers and many six cutter moulding machines, the cutters were "jointed" this meant that a carborundum stick was moved by hand along a slide to equalise the setting and then honed.

I believe some forage harvesters are sharpened in the same manner but the user pulls and pushes a rod, attached to the grinding stick, keeping hands well away.
Regards Rodders


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## blackrodd (14 Dec 2014)

Jacob, I like making glazing bars 2"x 1" and i prefer the ovolo as opposed to the chamfer.
There's something satisfying about making a window, I find.
None of the merchants around here, stock anything ovolo moulded, 3" or 4"bottom rails, 2"x 2" head, stiles etc or sliding sash parts, still, it will help the smaller workshops busy!
We used to make windows for the national trust, they specified yellow cedar then termed joinery pine, difficult to work by hand as it was so soft and cutters had to be really sharp or the finish was really "wooly"when machined.
Regards Rodders


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2014)

Yes nice work. Instant improvement to an old building!
Everything I did was copy of original as it was all period building work. This meant having to make my own cutters (or modifying an earlier one.) Some of the bars very thin 44x15mm typical - thinnest was 38x12mm for sashes in an old pub.
Thin stuff hasn't much weight so any wobbles or changes in feed pressure tend to show up, which is where the power feed really comes in, though you can do it with shaw guards plus feathers etc if you set it up very carefully.


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## Peter Sefton (14 Dec 2014)

Rodders

I know our local saws doctor now does very few plate saw blades, usually very large ones used in the farming industry. The TCT are now so good and well balanced they have just taken over.

I remember "playing" with my planer and and India oli stone to joint the cutters. (yes India Jacob) It gave the best finish ever but to much resistance to be safe for surfacing work. My mate has a jointer on his SCM thicknesser but never uses it these days.

I covered the jointing of cutters and other old tricks to improve your planer in an article for F&C last year.

http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... rticle.pdf

Our short wood machining course is very popular and I feel necessary, it is now easier than ever to buy your own wood machines and just go home and plug them in. 

This is potentially very dangerous, we hope to help woodworkers make the most of their investment and learn how to set up and maintain the kit whilst selecting cutters and safe methods of use.


Jacob 

I have made a few delicate sash windows over the years great when all the mouldings and scribes come together.

Cheers Peter


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## heimlaga (15 Dec 2014)

I make some joinery as a side income to carpentry (I did before I got too ill to work even part time and now I am recovering and will start again after some more recovery time). I mostly made odd one off doors and sash windows and sometimes a few metres of speciality mouldings. The spindle moulder on my huge old combination machine gets a lot of use. Once I can afford a bigger shop I will get a separate spindle moulder that I can leave set up while doing other things on the combination. Without a good full size spindle moulder with a sliding table I would have to turn the clock back to the hand tool era as no router would do the kind of work I do on the spindle moulder.
My training is 2 years carpentry and 1 year joinery in the vocational school in the late 90-ies.

I don't critisize Peter Sefton for advocating the use of approved tooling but in reality a shop with a small turnover and only one-offs or short production runs cannot afford to always use the solutions found in the catalogs of mayor tooling makers. That would bankrupt me and many others instantly shut down every small joinery shop in less than a year. I just don't like to live on benefits for long periods so the money that puts food on the table has to come from somewhere else if I can.
I am known locally for being overly safety concious but in the reality you have to turn a profit to pay for your daily bread so I try to make a reasonable compromize: 
-I have decided to not use square heads and clamshell heads. Most of my competitors still use them all the time.....but....well...... I am just too scared of the uneven degree of fatigue in those old bolts. The design was unsafe from the beginning and age makes then even unsafer.
-I have decided not to use french cutters though some of my competitors sometimes use them. The design is too unsafe for me.
-I have put away the slip collars even if many of my competitors still use them all the time. The design does not feel safe. 
A flying knife is a hazard that I don't want in my shop if I can avoid it so I do not want to rely purely on bolt friction for holding a profile knife.

-I sometimes cut profiles with one knife and a counterweight in the other knife slot of the head. With low enough RPM and low enough feed rate it works all right. I try to avoild this practice as far as I can but sometimes I cannot.
-Very few of my heads have chip limiters. It would be very expensive to have a number of heads made to order with chip limiters and speciality knives. The whole idea is totally beyond reality. Then they would be very difficult to sharpen as there isn't any room for the grinding disc between the chip limiter and the steel. Stick welding chip limiters to my old heads and ginding them to shape would distort the head and cause dangerous internal stresses. 
There are hardly any secondhand heads with limiters on the market but limiterless heads can sometimes be found. If the steel is worn out the old head can be sent off to a professional who brazes new steel pieces in place.
-My "euro head" with profile knives does not have chip limiters. Just because a new head would cost a bit of money not to mention the time (=lost money) spent grinding limiters. 

I rekon that I can keep my fingers far away from the head and use guards just like our vocational school teacher taught me before limiters were introduced. However to shelter me from a flying knives I need a 5 inch log wall between me and the machine so I just have to stretch my limited means and use cutterheads that do not thorow knives.
That is how I think. Feel free to disagree.


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2014)

Me the same more or less - with old Whitehill blocks (which were the "safety" blocks of the time).
I don't have a power feed at the moment so I always switch on with care and all guards in place - or a big piece of timber. I think a lot of people are experimenting with the old ways - the price of old blocks has gone up - they used to be scrap only. 
NB it's not for the faint hearted and only for the one man alone in a workshop!


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## doctor Bob (15 Dec 2014)

Jacob":1n7iyil6 said:


> NB it's not for the faint hearted and only for the one man alone in a workshop!



Yes, no point in more than one being killed at a time.


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2014)

The old Whitehill blocks are a lot safer than the square blocks or french cutters so we are half way there. 
We are waiting for a manufacturer to produce design which will have modern safety features and allow the freedom of a french cutter - and most of all the economy; DIY cutters are very cheap and very adaptable.


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## doctor Bob (15 Dec 2014)

Jacob":3kkdvl0x said:


> The old Whitehill blocks are a lot safer than the square blocks or french cutters so we are half way there.



Jolly good, the chances of being killed outright are less, maybe just end up a dribbling vegetable, mumbling incoherently ............. arrhhh, apologies Jacob, you obviously have been hit quite badly in the past by a cutter. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2014)

Actually I did lose one once (from a modern safety block) but that was because it hadn't been tightened by the previous user. My fault too for not checking, so that's two people learning a lesson. It shattered harmlessly behind the fence but left a permanent nick in the metal work.


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## blackrodd (15 Dec 2014)

Jacob":2roioywg said:


> Actually I did lose one once (from a modern safety block) but that was because it hadn't been tightened by the previous user. My fault too for not checking, so that's two people learning a lesson. It shattered harmlessly behind the fence but left a permanent nick in the metal work.


 

Jacob,I'll bet that was A very nasty surprise, one of my work mate and Teacher's told me that when the cutters did come out, they seemed to always get launched to the right as in 2 of the clock, from above. I always remembered that and would always keep the area clear, myself included.

Worse thing I ever saw was a machinist in Shaplands had started, just before lunch, to change the 3 planer irons on a 18"X 4" 3 sided planer. When he returned from lunch, forgetting that the cap iron was not tightened down on 1 blade, he switched it on.
Getting to about half speed, out it came, hitting the bed, just under the hardened edge, breaking the bed casting along the sliders, where the bed was locked down each side.
Afterwards, we counted 15, or more shiny pieces of shrapnel embedded in the ceiling boarding and luckiest of all, he just moved to hit the off button, as a piece went flying towards his head, but it caught his eyebrow and cut it fairly deeply.
The planer irons had adjusting slots, for up and down adjustment for cutter projection, so I guess that is what held on for those few seconds, before release.
With the broken bed casting,it was knocked back about 3", you could just pull the bed off which must have weighed about 3, or more hundredweight (sod the kilo's).
The place was busy with men and machines and just one injury, very lucky for several there, including me, walking past! Regards Rodders


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## deema (15 Dec 2014)

I think that that all of the points that have been raised have a lot of merit in their own perspective. One thing that we should not give the impression is that a Spindle Moulder is a fire breathing dragon of a machine that cuts appendages off at the slightest turn on of the machine. 

A spindle moulder IMO is one of the most versatile machines I have. If used with modern tooling and shaw guards it's also very safe (all machines have inherent dangers taken). Safety can be enhanced and the quality of cut improved with the use of a power feed.

Putting it into perspective, and again this is only my opinion, a spindle moulder is not as dangerous as a router (well in my hands it's not, I've had more close calls with a router than with my spindle) and again, certainly from my observations, there are more risks generally taken with a table saw than you would ever hear about with a spindle moulder. (trenching, no crown guard, no giving knife etc to name but a few)

It is when you first power up a big block on a spindle rather scary, but that also I feel makes you respect the machine more than 'every day' machines that you see unusual things being done with, normally by our American cousins on uTube. 

Please don't be out off, the spindle moulder is a far better investment that a router table (IMO) and once you have one, a machine that you will truly value for its versatility and practicality.


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2014)

Agree. I'm lucky that I got to spindle moulding before I was drawn in to the world of routers. Hardly use a router at all - just the odd job. Spindle is 100 times as productive. And a lot quieter, less dusty etc


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## blackrodd (15 Dec 2014)

deema":2szooy50 said:


> I think that that all of the points that have been raised have a lot of merit in their own perspective. One thing that we should not give the impression is that a Spindle Moulder is a fire breathing dragon of a machine that cuts appendages off at the slightest turn on of the machine.
> 
> A spindle moulder IMO is one of the most versatile machines I have. If used with modern tooling and shaw guards it's also very safe (all machines have inherent dangers taken). Safety can be enhanced and the quality of cut improved with the use of a power feed.
> 
> ...




As you rightly say the spindle moulder is an incredible versatile machine, but the other hazards you mentioned, are not likely to launch pieces of steel at you, mainly by user error.

I think the router a really good tool, and used with the router table, is as good as a spindle moulder but surely cutter ejection and balancing, are not so likely, unless in the hands of the village silly person, with only one nut to do up!

I tend to use the router as its light and with the bearing depth control, very quick to set up and the best part could be the bits are all now TCT, at very little cost each time should you be able to use the more common shapes and sizes.
but as Jacob said earlier, the larger rebates and window mouldings, a spindle every time for me, a lovely machine!
Regards Rodders


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## Sgian Dubh (16 Dec 2014)

In amongst all these stories relating the grinding of one-off cutters, balancing them up with a non-cutting heavier cutter in the block, French heads and the like, an operation I saw just two or three times back in the '70s was moulding things like curved banister rails off a dumpling block and use of a French head, although I did see a similar set up using a ring fence and a Whitehill block. The wood machinist I saw doing it must have been in his late fifties or early sixties even then and bore some of the typical scars of old wood machinists probably trained back in the 20's and 30s, e.g., less fingers and thumbs than the average bloke. I never fancied having a go at moulding off a dumpling myself, ha, ha. Saddle templates used for things like door architraves curved in just one plane were less daunting, but not by too much. Slainte.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2014)

I've done saddle templates for curved architraves - bodged up from mdf etc. No particular risk as I recall. But some of the other old stuff is very scary! One old woodworker near me ended up as a saw doctor as he had no fingers left on either hand. I guess it was one incident as anyone losing one is unlikely to risk losing another.
Safety is mostly about two things - having the cutters _out of sight_ so that if anything flies off it hits something else first, and having them _out of reach_ - behind shaw guards etc making push sticks essential. 
Push sticks should be wood - plywood copies of the common standard plastic is ideal. Plastic shatters, save it for a pattern, plywood just gets trimmed. Have several lying around all the time so you can always put your hand on two (always use two).
Another safety measure is to cultivate the "hands up" reflex - if anything goes wrong back off immediately with your hands up, don't be tempted to poke or grab the workpiece even (especially) if it's getting chewed to bits


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## RogerS (16 Dec 2014)

Jacob":1mbwy9jz said:


> RogerS":1mbwy9jz said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1mbwy9jz said:
> ...



So to put this to bed once and for all. I asked the experts - Whitehill - this question based on your reply (without the personal abuse).

_On one of the UK woodworking forums we have been having a discussion regarding the accuracy of machined cutters that have been made to match a given profile. 

I maintain that the machined cutters will be identical to each other and to the sample profile as near as dammit.

Another member says 
'Copy machined cutters should be identical to each other, but are sometimes not quite spot on with the sample moulding being copied. It's quite easy to fine adjust one of them to match the profile exactly (offering it up etc) but not easy to match the other one by hand and eye so that they both cut the same. 
The traditional tried and tested solution is to have just one cutting and the other as close as possible but effectively just balancing, not cutting, or perhaps just cutting a bit.

I think he is talking nonsense but would appreciate any comments from an expert viewpoint._

This is the reply. My bold.

_We only make exact prs & exactly to shape.
The only problem can be information from the customer is not that good.
*That is a very old fashioned idea*._

No doubt you will try and wriggle out as per usual.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2014)

I thought you'd abandoned us Roger - I think you'd be happier if you stayed over there with your friends at the shaven (where everybody is a mod :lol: :lol: ) instead of stumbling about erratically in public.


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## RogerS (16 Dec 2014)

Grow up and admit you gave incorrect advice.


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## Sgian Dubh (16 Dec 2014)

RogerS":2ywkhz2j said:


> So to put this to bed once and for all. I asked the experts - Whitehill - this question based on your reply (without the personal abuse).
> This is the reply. My bold.
> 
> _We only make exact prs & exactly to shape.
> ...


Actually Roger, I think Jacob has a point. I suspect there is a tendency for one cutter to provide the lead cutting action during a moulding (machining) procedure, even when using matched moulding cutters. The leading edge could change from cutter to cutter. Let's say that the profile length is 45 mm long, and one cutter may be the lead for, say 10 mm, then the other cutter is the lead for the next 20 mm, and finally, the first cutter leads for the final 15 mm of the profile length, all due to tiny variations in the profile made. The discrepancy is miniscule I'm sure, and no doubt with some unevenness in wear the lead varies from cutter to cutter as a profile is run, but I think this is probably the case. However, in the overall scheme of things I suspect, through my experience of using blocks of this type anyway, such variations in matched cutter profiles in spindle blocks add up to nothing noteworthy or significant. Slainte.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2014)

The practice of setting one cutter slightly behind the other, or having just a "balance" in place of a cutter is, as somebody at Whitehill apparently told Roger, "a very old fashioned idea". 
Non the worse for that IMHO and a useful thing to know, particularly if you are involved in precise reproduction of period details, as I was. Still am to some extent.


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## RogerS (16 Dec 2014)

Sgian Dubh":35xoir7x said:


> ....The discrepancy is miniscule I'm sure, and no doubt with some unevenness in wear the lead varies from cutter to cutter as a profile is run, but I think this is probably the case. However, in the overall scheme of things I suspect, through my experience of using blocks of this type anyway, such variations in matched cutter profiles in spindle blocks add up to nothing noteworthy or significant. Slainte.



I couldn't agree with you more, Richard.

My main concern, however, is the almost throwaway comments that Jacob makes which could be misconstrued by those of lesser experience. Sometimes the advice in those throwaway comments borders on the unsafe or dangerous. Any road, not a problem anymore as I'll just stick him on Ignore (again) and let other folks make up their own mind as to the accuracy or sensibility of his comments.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2014)

RogerS":nyqep2q9 said:


> ..... not a problem anymore as I'll just stick him on Ignore (again) and let other folks make up their own mind as to the accuracy or sensibility of his comments.


Yes please Roger please ignore everything I write - you will only find it confusing and get over excited. It probably isn't good for you. :roll:


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## Sgian Dubh (16 Dec 2014)

RogerS":rqiuf8rr said:


> My main concern, however, is the almost throwaway comments that Jacob makes which could be misconstrued by those of lesser experience. Sometimes the advice in those throwaway comments borders on the unsafe or dangerous. Any road, not a problem anymore as I'll just stick him on Ignore (again) and let other folks make up their own mind as to the accuracy or sensibility of his comments.


Roger, Jacob's manner of expressing himself may come across as throwaway and flippant at times, but his comments regarding what were once common or garden spindle moulder techniques aren't necessarily incorrect. There's many a moulding I've run with just one cutter that I'd ground to the appropriate profile mounted in compression blocks and Whitehill blocks that were 'balanced' with a heavier, non-matching profile cutter shoved deeper into the block. 

Such practices are no longer current or common, and nor do they meet the safety standards of today. I certainly wouldn't encourage contemporary amateur users new to spindle moulders, with the typical attendant non-existent training in their use, to even attempt doing what we used to do on a regular basis forty or more years ago. Spindle moulders used to have a well earned reputation for amputation and more serious injuries, even in the hands of wood machinists with decades of experience. 

However, I've still got a couple of old fashioned Whitehill blocks should I ever get the urge to knock out a limited length of non-standard moulding where twenty minutes grinding of a cutter to a developed profile will do the job, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2014)

I certainly wouldn't wish encourage amateurs either - but there seems to be plenty of scary discouragement out there - further health warnings hardly necessary!
Also I do add a lot of safety suggestions to my posts.
But people will have a go at outmoded methods without any prompting from me - it's all in the books and on the net already.


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## blackrodd (16 Dec 2014)

Sgian Dubh":3ofyyv0o said:


> RogerS":3ofyyv0o said:
> 
> 
> > So to put this to bed once and for all. I asked the experts - Whitehill - this question based on your reply (without the personal abuse).
> ...



My teacher (now 78) always said if you push, or feed fast enough they will both cut, even a slight secondary projecting cutter. 
Of course you will always know after a "run" as one cutter will show signs of more use and even be blunter than the secondary
From my distant memories of night school and college, surely the answer is in the cutter marks per inch (in old money).
As the Relevant information ie, feed speed, shaft speed is available, then it can be seen whether one or two cutters are working. 
As a matter of interest, perhaps the member whom is in contact with Whitehill, would be good enough to ask them how many CPI's they recommend for a good finish as I can't remember the actual number acceptable.

Whitehill were always aware of the common practice of, say a prime cutter and a balancer, as their rep came and watched me doing the very same, our 5 or 6 whitehill blocks were each sent away yearly to be serviced, and came back like brand new each time! Regards Rodders


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## doctor Bob (16 Dec 2014)

My only comment is that although HSE rules apply to companies with employees, I think for one man bands if you have an accident whilst using non compliant tooling I doubt an insurance company would pay out.
Now if you have no insurance then it doesn't matter.
I can't understand how a cutter can come out of a modern safety block, they are locked in with pins, wedges and centrifugal force, the only way I can see it coming out is if the wedge dropped out before it was fitted. Even if it all comes loose during the cutting it cant come out.

Jacob.......... you wouldn't be making up a little story to make it look like modern tooling is not safe would you, surely not.


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## Peter Sefton (16 Dec 2014)

The one cutter one balancer was common practice, but never good practice.

The quality of cut will always be poor compared with both cutters in the same circle. As pointed out the real quality of finish is dependant on a combination of factors at play including the cutter RPM which needs to be within the limits as printed on the block and the feed speed of the timber. These matters are dictated by the quality of work you are doing or how much time you wish to spend sanding out the cutters marks.

I do understand the H&S cost implications to small businesses (we are one) its a bit like the cost implications of getting a taxi if you want to go to the pub and down six pints. None of us want to pay the extra but we need to make a sensible decision based on facts (and possibly the law) not on what we used to do 30 years ago.

If I have to do a short moulding run I have to make the decision of using out dated practices or make it the real old fashioned way with a moulding plane. 

You can get the cutters and limiters made for you, our local saw doctors make cutters to match a drawing or section of moulding. They hand file a template to match your requirements and then use the profile grinder to copy it on the cutters and limiters allowing for the elongated cutter length. These are a reasonable price but are reliant of the guy filing the template by hand. if you wish to have a very accurate moulding made up I would email the drawing to Whitehill in a format their CNC machine can read and this takes out the human error. I have found their cutters very good and accurate. When setting cutters and limiters they should all match and be exact pairs but there is still room for human error. You will find a small amount of play in the dowel pin holes, you need to set the cutters all tight to either the bottom or top edge of the holes to minimise any mismatch in profiles. 

The spindle moulder does have a bad reputation, is was not unusual for old wood machinists to have lost a finger or two. These were guys who were experience time served craftsmen not casual woodworkers who can now use the kit that would not have been at their disposal years ago. 

The Whitehill block was the safety block of it's day but the cutter projections this left us with was still very dangerous. If hands came into contact with the cutters fingers would be torn off at the knuckle thus the loss of fingers not just cut fingers. The kick back and snatch these style of blocks cause is the dangerous part particularly when doing ring fence work. 

The chip limited blocks are still rotating very quickly but act more as bacon slicers which means they don't snatch timber or flesh to any where near the extent of older blocks. This has reduced the amount of serious injures and amount of cutters coming out of the blocks. 

I do not say these things to grab attention but this is part of the accident history and systems developed to make our machines and industry much safer. A well set up spindle is a pleasure to use and far safer than most of the other machines within the workshop, as access to the cutters is better guarded than on the planer or saw bench. When done properly.

Everyone can make up their own minds how they wish to work in a home workshop as long as they understand the implications, but those in industry are legally bound to comply either as employers or those who are self employed.

It's easy to say I only do it when working alone, but alone is the worst time to have a serious woodworking accident!

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":jrsxve50 said:


> The one cutter one balancer was common practice, but never good practice.


It was a time saver and perfectly good practice. No inherent hazard, except wear to the bearings if over done. Usually indicated by the rumbling.


> The quality of cut will always be poor compared with both cutters in the same circle.


 Not so - hardly noticeable if at all. I suppose if you pushed the feed rate you would see a difference


> .......
> The Whitehill block was the safety block of it's day but the cutter projections this left us with was still very dangerous. If hands came into contact with the cutters fingers would be torn off at the knuckle thus the loss of fingers not just cut fingers. The kick back and snatch these style of blocks cause is the dangerous part particularly when doing ring fence work.


Anybody getting near enough to lose a finger is doing it badly wrong. Ditto if you have limiters. Limiters have only one function which is to limit the damage to the hands of a beginner who shouldn't be on the job in the first place. There will still be some nasty damage. It's the management's fault if that happens. 
Kick back is something I've never experienced - I don't know how or why it happens. Except when cutting bevels on a TS - the wedge shaped off cut can get picked up and slung out but this is easily avoided with a false fence


> nd industry much safer..... A well set up spindle is a pleasure to use and far safer than most of the other machines within the workshop, as access to the cutters is better guarded than on the planer or saw bench.


Agree


> It's easy to say I only do it when working alone, but alone is the worst time to have a serious woodworking accident!
> 
> Cheers Peter


Well yes OK but what I meant was that most of the danger is with inexperienced operatives. The chap giving you a hand is at much greater risk than yourself.


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## Sgian Dubh (17 Dec 2014)

blackrodd":3h7a3yfp said:


> From my distant memories of night school and college, surely the answer is in the cutter marks per inch (in old money).
> ... how many CPI's they recommend for a good finish as I can't remember the actual number acceptable.


My memory has it that the recommended knife marks per inch (KMPI) to aim for were/ are somewhere between 12 - 18, and that the best finish is produced with a light cut at higher KMPI. The idea for fine work, frequently (but not always) is to hog out the bulk of the waste, and reset the fence/ support arrangement, or moulder head height for a final cut at something like a 1/64" or 1/32" deep. This strategy reduces work required to remove the knife scallops prior to polishing, e.g., in high quality furniture work.

There are differences too in the optimal tool set-up for different wood species, e.g., the angle the knife is set at as measured against a radial line drawn through the centre of the block - generally more acute at about 20º for hardwoods and less acute, about 30º for softwoods. Of course, my memory could be playing tricks - it was quite a long time ago. Slainte.


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## blackrodd (17 Dec 2014)

Sgian Dubh":3ft2zbtr said:


> blackrodd":3ft2zbtr said:
> 
> 
> > From my distant memories of night school and college, surely the answer is in the cutter marks per inch (in old money).
> ...



You're certainly right on the above, in fact you as you are probably aware this cutting angle was the reason the french head was so useful, and stayed popular for so long as it had more of a scraping action, and far better results with timbers with short or any controversial grain. While an apprentice, I did use the french head and burnished the cutters (not hss of course) under my workmate's watchful eye.
Some of the older machinists actually fed the timber in the same direction as the cut, just a quick whip down through, I was told, apparently good for the various mahoganies, etc. but I'm not too sure how good it was for the fingers. 
Regards Rodders


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## Giff (17 Dec 2014)

Can someone clarify the point below that Robin BHM made in this post:

"whereas joinery PAR, the only option for the general user to buy will be the lower grades of unsorted or possibly fifths. "

I thought unsorted softwood was the best you can get and fifths next to that…I am now confused 

Thanks Geoff


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## Stuart (17 Dec 2014)

Reading this thread through again I can remember many instances where I have in the distant past done what Jacob says, a cutter and a balancing cutter and a slow feed into the revolving block. In my experience it was common practice up to about 1990 when Whitehill and tool doctors stopped servicing the old type of block. Persons who have come into the trade since this time might have never seen it done, even a person working for Whitehill might not have come across it.
I am not sure but I think the non captive blocks without limiting cutters are now illegal without power fed, someone in the trade now and familiar with H&S might clarify this?
Years ago Lietz tooling had a training film showing spindle accidents, in one part they touched a revolving block with a pigs tail, (a dead pig), it is formed out of bones similar to human fingers and the result was terrible, it made me more careful with a spindle.


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## RobinBHM (17 Dec 2014)

Giff":2z2jpvz7 said:


> Can someone clarify the point below that Robin BHM made in this post:
> 
> "whereas joinery PAR, the only option for the general user to buy will be the lower grades of unsorted or possibly fifths. "
> 
> ...



Hi Geoff,
Apologies for a poor explanation! I meant to say 'or possibly only fifths'. 

Unsorted of course refers to grades 1 to 4 and fifths is the next grade down. Some timber merchants machine fifths for their PAR timber, some use unsorted.


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## James-1986 (17 Dec 2014)

Jacob":1buc6jid said:


> RogerS":1buc6jid said:
> 
> 
> > Get a price and make your own mind up. Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.



They only guaranteed way to get two cutters to do EXACTLY the same amount of work is to grind them in the block on a profile grinder. Even if the pair are a perfect match, you get quite a lot of movement on the pins in the modern blocks so they are often set wrong. The only way to check all that accurately is with a setting stand. So its either a big inconvenience for someone else to do it or a big investment to buy the equipment.

The other disadvantage of the modern safety blocks is that if you don't have a tilting spindle you cannot turn the cutter to alter a moulding. 

I use whitehill and Wadkin safety blocks, the wadkin blocks are safer as the clamping block is a wedge shape so grips the cutter if anything comes loose. Safety issues aside you cannot beat the efficiency and cost of using one cutter with a balancer in a whitehill block if you're doing lots of custom mouldings. I've got about 15 blocks for my spindle and tenoner. and a huge tub of cutters for about £200.

For someone who is not trained or willing to use whitehills, wealden do blocks with no limiters, but you do have the locating pins and wedge shaped clamps. I got one with my spindle and have used it with one cutter and balancer but lack of a tilting shaft means it doesn't get much use.

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... 4_314.html


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2014)

I agree with all that. Pleased to see we are not alone! The fact is - if you want to produce perfect replicas "modern" procedures make this difficult to impossible.


James-1986":9pwazx22 said:


> .....
> http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... 4_314.html


That's reassuring - the blurb says "without limiters - not suitable for hand feeding"
Well I use push sticks - which is also far away enough from hand feeding to make limiters unnecessary. I'm safer than I thought and not breaking a rule!

Personally I don't think blocks _with_ limiters are safe for hand feeding either - limiters are pointless and may even lead to a false sense of security.

Very interesting thread especially Rodders account of the bad old days - not _all_ bad practice by any means.


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2014)

doctor Bob":1r0ekyko said:


> ...
> I can't understand how a cutter can come out of a modern safety block, they are locked in with pins, wedges and centrifugal force, the only way I can see it coming out is if the wedge dropped out before it was fitted. Even if it all comes loose during the cutting it cant come out.
> 
> Jacob.......... you wouldn't be making up a little story to make it look like modern tooling is not safe would you, surely not.


If a cutter is very loose it can flap about and shatter even though it's held with pins. In fact it will probably break along the line of the pin holes and half of it be thrown out.


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## RogerS (18 Dec 2014)

Limiters are a legal requirement any business when hand-feeding in spindle moulders, for example. This requirement applies whether you employ anyone or it is just yourself as self-emploed 

Anyone who says limiters are pointless is an silly person.


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2014)

RogerS":34uw7ksj said:


> Limiters are a legal requirement any business when hand-feeding in spindle moulders, for example. This requirement applies whether you employ anyone or it is just yourself as self-emploed
> 
> Anyone who says limiters are pointless is an silly person.


Pay more attention Roger, you might just get it. It's not that difficult to understand.
Wealden is saying that no limiters are OK when machine fed. 
I am saying that using push sticks is much the same as machine fed (no possibility of hitting the cutters) and hence limiters are not needed here. 
I'm also saying that hand feeding without push sticks (even with limiters) is not safe i.e. when you hand is only the width of the workpiece away from the cutters. The most dangerous bit being as the end of the workpiece passes the cutters. Doubly dangerous if not all the cutter is in use on the workpiece. 
Even with limiters you could get a very nasty cut. With push sticks (and the "hands up" reflex see above) this is virtually impossible. Hence limiters might give a false sense of security possibly leading to risk taking (hand feeding).

I'm saying don't hand feed at all, ever. An exception might be with a large timber covering the cutter - say rebating a door lining - where you left hand could be on the workpiece but you should still use a push stick in your right hand to push the end of the workpiece past the cutters. If you do this limiters are irrelevant.


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## doctor Bob (18 Dec 2014)

Jacob":d3r6y27z said:


> doctor Bob":d3r6y27z said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



No it cant flap around as the centrifugal force holds the wedge up against them. So I'm saying that it could only have happened if the wedge had dropped out before it was put on the spindle.


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## RobinBHM (18 Dec 2014)

Just to clarify, chip limiting tooling is required for both hand feeding and power feeding on a vertical spindle moulder. Of course this is the requirement in a business with employees, although as mentioned further up the thread, self employed people will likely have insurance which will almost certainly require compliance.

full pdf here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf

Extract from *HSE Woodworking Information Sheet No 37 (Revision 1)*

*On which machines do I have to use
limited cutter projection tooling?*
Where possible to fit them, there has been a
requirement to use limited cutter projection
tooling on hand-fed machines since 5 December
2003.2
The term ‘hand-fed’ includes the use of
demountable power feed units and hand-operated
carriages on which the workpiece is placed manually
or clamped.
Limited cutter projection tooling can be used with:
■ vertical spindle moulders;


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## RogerS (18 Dec 2014)

Jacob, what part of the phrase 'legal requirement' are you having difficulty in understanding?

But like many other threads where one gets dragged by Jacob into trying to nail jelly to a tree. I promise this is my last contribution to this thread in response to Jacob.


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2014)

RogerS":1dniqg4b said:


> .... I promise this is my last contribution to this thread.


Promises promises! :roll:


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## James-1986 (18 Dec 2014)

"legal requirement"

If they give me 20 grand I'll be able to comply, otherwise they can mind their own damned business :wink:


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## RogerS (18 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":3z829yod said:


> Just to clarify, chip limiting tooling is required for both hand feeding and power feeding on a vertical spindle moulder. Of course this is the requirement in a business with employees..........



Robin, this question cropped up over on WoodworkUK as the general consensus was as you suggest...ie PUWER (which is the Act in question ) only applies to those businesses that employ people. It does not. PUWER equally applies to self-employed people as well (even one-man bands) and I got clarification of this from HS & E. A big surprise, I must say.

James...either you've got the world's largest collection of cutters (without limiters) or you need to find a cheaper supplier !! :lol:


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2014)

"This leaflet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do. "
If you cause an accident by not following "good practice" then you could be liable for the damages. Fair enough, but it remains open to interpretation and circumstances. And there will certainly be good practices which are not detailed in any of the pamphlets.
Let us know when you are making you last post Roger - you keep promising!

Here's the tune


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## RogerS (18 Dec 2014)

Do I smell a troll in here ?


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2014)

Is that it then?


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## James-1986 (18 Dec 2014)

RogerS":13u0wid1 said:


> RobinBHM":13u0wid1 said:
> 
> 
> > James...either you've got the world's largest collection of cutters (without limiters) or you need to find a cheaper supplier !! :lol:



:lol: 

I DO have quite a big bucket of HSS cutters!

However I would also want a tilting spindle to replace my EQ, a profile grinder, a setting stand, moulding blocks, rebate blocks, cill blocks, scribing blocks, big bucket of shaped cutters as well as blanks AND a nice T handle hex key to do up all the bolts


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## RobinBHM (18 Dec 2014)

RogerS":3npmadfl said:


> RobinBHM":3npmadfl said:
> 
> 
> > Just to clarify, chip limiting tooling is required for both hand feeding and power feeding on a vertical spindle moulder. Of course this is the requirement in a business with employees..........
> ...



Hi Roger, thanks for clarifying my clarification  -I have to admit to assuming it doesnt apply to self employed people rather than actually having checked it out. In reality, it seems unlikely HSE would prosecute a one man band for injuring himself.............

Nevertheless, a self employed woodworker can easily have an injury that could end his career and thus income, so it is wise to be risk adverse. One can argue the details, but the regulations for woodworking, overall make a safer environment and if tooling etc is compliant then risk is reduced along with the temptation to take risky shortcuts.

The recent thread about ladders shows how tempting it is to take shortcuts to get the job done.


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":3nzf3c21 said:


> ...... In reality, it seems unlikely HSE would prosecute a one man band for injuring himself.................


You'd have to prosecute yourself - with help from HSE.


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## Jacob (19 Dec 2014)

I must be the first person on this forum to read Woodworking Information Sheet No 18 (Revised) right to the end as nobody else seems to have noticed the footnote; 

"This leaflet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do"

It's advisory rather than compulsory. 

In the event of an accident you would of course be culpable if you hadn't followed recommended safety advice or set up other sensible safety procedures. No one could argue with that.

There is masses of other material such as http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l114.htm but the emphasis is on guidance and recommendations. 

It makes sense of course to treat the good practice info as the default standard and to all intents and purposes obligatory, particularly where third parties are involved. 

But there remains leeway for other ways of doing things.


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## Peter Sefton (19 Dec 2014)

Jacob":ndwjo8e7 said:


> I must be the first person on this forum to read Woodworking Information Sheet No 18 (Revised) right to the end as nobody else seems to have noticed the footnote;
> 
> "This leaflet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do"
> 
> ...



Well done for spotting something written 13 years ago Jacob (thanks for bringing it to our attention) :mrgreen: , but I think you have a bit more reading to do before they ask you to join the advisory committee! 
You may also need to read all the legislation to get the full picture. The revised publication you highlighted has been with us since 1998. This is what the rest of the professional industry has been working on since then. If you do care to read on you will find the regulation apply to employers and the self employed - you may cut your fingers off in your time proven ways but you can be prosecuted and then charged the costs for the prosecution. You can go to court and fight against the legislation but if you have not used the ACOPs you will not win. 

I know you will continue in your own way, but my main concern is that this forum is a venue to help new and improving woodworkers and your personal practices and mis-information may end up seriously injuring someone else!

I do hope this does not come to fruition and some common sense prevails. 

The blocks being advertised and then recommended by yourself as seen on Wealdon are only to be used on machines with interlocking guards, not hand fed spindle moulders including those fitted with power feeds or people using push sticks.


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## Jacob (19 Dec 2014)

So - what/where are the legally obligatory rules, word for word, rather than advice and recommendations? Which are the correct ACOPs? At which point does an ACOP become a legal obligation?

If the law is unclear (it is) then it's bad law. Is the HSE publishing material which is out of date? I downloaded the PDF today. Should they be prosecuted for distributing misleading and incorrect information?

I'm working with the best information I can obtain. In what way is it mis-information? How could I know, or be responsible, if the information is wrong?

One thing is certain - if you and the professional industry are "working on it", you are making a very bad job of clarifying issues and distributing information.

PS or to put it another way - The highway code is largely compulsory - there is little "should" it's all "must" and an offence not to obey. 
As I understand it the HSE rules are not largely compulsory - by their own account on their website today ("This leaflet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do"). There is no "must" but in the event of an accident you could be responsible for inadequate safety provision.
Have the HSE got it wrong?


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## doctor Bob (19 Dec 2014)

Go on Jacob, one more whack..........


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## Jacob (19 Dec 2014)

I want to know what the law _is_. Not what Roger or Peter _think_ it is. I don't think either of them know. That's all!


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## Jacob (19 Dec 2014)

NB see last para;

"This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety
Executive. Following the guidance is not compulsory,
unless specifically stated, and you are free to take
other action. But if you do follow the guidance you
will normally be doing enough to comply with the law.
Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance
with the law and may refer to this guidance."

It's advisory not compulsory. Not that I'd argue with it particularly, but it's not against the law, per se, to use other set ups.


RobinBHM":1h4jz3yn said:


> Just to clarify, chip limiting tooling is required for both hand feeding and power feeding on a vertical spindle moulder. Of course this is the requirement in a business with employees, although as mentioned further up the thread, self employed people will likely have insurance which will almost certainly require compliance.
> 
> full pdf here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf .......


----------



## RobinBHM (19 Dec 2014)

The key here is 'unless specifically stated':

on page 1 of the guide notes it says: 
*Limited cutter projection tooling should be designed
and constructed to meet BS EN 847-1.*

It isnt as clear as it could be, like a lot of these sorts of documents. I suppose because it covers so many different situations and sectors of woodworking industry, the regulations cant be as explicit as they really should be.

The point about self employed, which I hadnt realised, is actually clearly mentioned in PUWER here:
*Who has duties under PUWER?
18 PUWER places duties on:
• employers;
• the self-employed;
• people who have control of work equipment. 
*

http://www.iosh.co.uk/~/media/Documents ... 0L114.ashx


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## RogerS (19 Dec 2014)

"Where possible to fit them, there has been a *requirement* to use limited cutter projection tooling on hand-fed machines since 5 December 2003.2 The term ‘hand-fed’ includes the use of demountable power feed units and hand-operated carriages on which the workpiece is placed manually or clamped."

"Requirement" ....noun
a thing that is needed or wanted: choose the type of window that suits your requirements best.
• *a thing that is compulsory*; a necessary condition: applicants must satisfy the normal entry requirements.

That seems pretty clear to me.


----------



## Peter Sefton (19 Dec 2014)

I attended one of the HSE training days back in the late 90's when the ACOPs and PUWER were produced, part of the legislation that superseded the 1974 regs put the onus for employees to write risk assessments and safe systems of work for their own work places. These need to be based on the ACOPs to show how you will comply. 

Below is a small exert from the ACOP 

Approved Code of Practice
This Code has been approved by the Health and Safety Executive, with the consent of the Secretary of State. It gives practical advice on how to comply with the law. If you follow the advice you will be doing enough to comply with the law in respect of those specific matters on which the Code gives advice. You may use alternative methods to those set out in the Code in order to comply with the law.
However, the Code has a special legal status. If you are prosecuted for breach of health and safety law, and it is proved that you did not follow the relevant provisions of the Code, you will need to show that you have complied with the law in some other way or a Court will find you at fault.

You may also find the updated information on chip limited tooling of interest.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf

The way people usually find out if they have complied is after the accident has happened and they attend court. At this time they don't have a leg to stand on or a finger to point the blame with (depending on the severity of the accident)

The courts will not except either ignorance or lack of cash as reasons for non compliance. It is the duty of all to to understand and comply to the regs.

This maybe like the British tax system, not straight forward or possibly fair but the law of the land.


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":1vlngiyw said:


> T......
> 
> It isnt as clear as it could be, like a lot of these sorts of documents. I suppose because it covers so many different situations and sectors of woodworking industry, the regulations cant be as explicit as they really should be.......


Not clear because it is advisory and non of it is compulsory - which is the point I wished to be sure about. 
In the event of an accident having not being compliant with the codes of practice will make you culpable - if compliance would have prevented it of course. However it is open ended and if you could show that you had adequate safety procedures in place you might be OK - "You may use alternative methods to those set out in the Code in order to comply with the law".
Not easy - if you have an accident at all obviously something has gone wrong but ascertaining the blame is another matter.

The point is, as several others have pointed out above - certain types of work (precise copying) can be made difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive, if compliant with the codes. One will just have to make sure that as you use alternative methods to those set out in the Code they will comply with the law.
That's OK, I can do that. In fact some of my procedures are safer than the codes - no hand feeding at all (except by push stick} for instance. Glad to get it sorted out - keep wondering if I might get an HSE raid!


----------



## doctor Bob (19 Dec 2014)

Jacob":27uaqepa said:


> Glad to get it sorted out -



So was I.............. four pages ago...........


----------



## Peter Sefton (20 Dec 2014)

doctor Bob":1jxvxohz said:


> Jacob":1jxvxohz said:
> 
> 
> > Glad to get it sorted out -
> ...



I am sure your not a busy man Bob and have all the time in the world for this sort of thing.


----------



## RogerS (20 Dec 2014)

Jacob":13574cly said:


> ...... certain types of work (precise copying) can be made difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive, if compliant with the codes. .....



Against my better judgement, feel duty bound to respond. 

What exactly in the codes makes precise copying difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive (not that I agree with those last three comments either) ?

We have been talking mainly about limiters, for example. Limiters don't come into contact with the stock so how in God's name can you come up with your statement above?

Neither have you adequately responded to Bob's comment regarding centrifugal forces stopping your cutter from allegedly flying out (unless the wedge has dropped out). Still waiting on that one.


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

Too soon to get me bugle out I see. :lol:


----------



## doctor Bob (20 Dec 2014)

No, me me me for the last word


----------



## Peter Sefton (20 Dec 2014)

Bob it's yours


----------



## RobinBHM (20 Dec 2014)

Nope, Im still clinging on  

What happened to the OP?.............he's probably swapped to a new hobby by now


----------



## RogerS (20 Dec 2014)

So come on Jacob. Answer the questions. 

But you can't because you realise that you've been called out too many times in this thread. You can bluster and slip and slide but you've been caught out (again).


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

You are just to lazy to read the thread. There have been several explanations of the copying prob. No point in me explaining it again if you couldn't understand it first time around.
Is that your last post? :lol:


----------



## RogerS (20 Dec 2014)

Jacob":1jbd4t2s said:


> You are just to lazy to read the thread. There have been several explanations of the copying prob. No point in me explaining it again if you couldn't understand it first time around.
> Is that your last post? :lol:



Oh, this is so tedious, Jacob. This is your standard reply when you have been caught out. 

Now, please grow up, there's a good boy, humour us and answer the two questions.

Or are you just trolling again?


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

It's very quite over at the shaven Roger.
I think they may be missing your wit and wisdom. A sacrifice, but their need is greater than ours. :roll: 
Was that your last post by any chance?


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## heimlaga (20 Dec 2014)

Still there is a problem. It is called MONEY.
-If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and use hand tools instead I would not be productive enough to be able to earn a living. I have made enough window sashes by hand in the past to have a fair idea of what rate of productivity and what income I could expect. 
-If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and only use those that have limiters I would loose my versatility so I would loose all my customers.
-If I was to discard my limiterless tooling and buy new tools with limiters that would cost me many thousand euros. I would have to take a loan and in my economy there is no marigin for loans....... so I would end up going bankrupt and loosing everything.

All theese three options would include shutting down the business and loosing everything and living on social benefits. I don't want to live on social benefits all the time. I DON'T WANT TO.
We aren't all upper crust people you see..... and laws that prevent a poor man from earning a living arent too important in my oppinion.


----------



## RogerS (20 Dec 2014)

Jacob, are you not at all concerned about how you are now coming across? 

You have been asked two perfectly legitimate questions several times and yet refuse to answer either of them. Instead, you slip and slide and try and make little snide comments. You weaken your case and your standing every time you do this. Perhaps you don't care and are happy to keep on trolling.

My concern is this. I agree with others that, sometimes, you do have good advice to offer. Yet other times, you clearly do not. Newcomers to the forum could easily be lead down the garden path if they hung on your every word as gospel. Of more concern is that in some circumstances, your advice is dangerous. 

So why not man up and answer the questions ? Or either admit that they were throw-away comments or that you were trolling.


----------



## doctor Bob (20 Dec 2014)

heimlaga":fo3d6o1l said:


> Still there is a problem. It is called MONEY.
> -If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and use hand tools instead I would not be productive enough to be able to earn a living. I have made enough window sashes by hand in the past to have a fair idea of what rate of productivity and what income I could expect.
> -If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and only use those that have limiters I would loose my versatility so I would loose all my customers.
> -If I was to discard my limiterless tooling and buy new tools with limiters that would cost me many thousand euros. I would have to take a loan and in my economy there is no marigin for loans....... so I would end up going bankrupt and loosing everything.
> ...



Plenty of good businesses seem to be able to do it. I have employees and had to do it, but it was not an issue, one of my main priorities is safety. I've spent many 1000's over the years on it and part of my business planning is costing to absorb these costs over many years so that the %age increase in pricing is negligible.
As mentioned previously, if you are a single person, I don't think it's a huge problem, it's your life, fingers etc personally I chose a car with an air bag, I have smoke alarms, I therefore value my own safety and would rather follow the safest possible practice rather than one that is known to be less safe.
For example, I now couldn't imagine and wouldn't work in a shop which doesn't have braked machines, fantastic safety feature.


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

If you have cutters without limiters it's very easy to reduce the risk of a cut to near zero by doing everything with push sticks (plus the usual shaw guards etc) and also developing the hands-up reflex (described above). My hands never go near the cutters except when the machine is switched off. 
Making a mistake switching on/off could be the weakest link in my safety regime but I am aware of this and very cautious.
Contacting the cutters is by far the greatest cause of injury according to HSE - so I have tackled the main issue and I reckon I am probably safer than many other users even those with limiters on their cutters. 
How I would transfer the same level of caution to an employee is another question altogether.


----------



## RogerS (20 Dec 2014)

Thank you for your post, Jacob. An interesting recapitulation of your viewpoint.

Now, if we could perhaps return to the two questions ?

_1) What exactly in the codes makes precise copying difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive (not that I agree with those last three comments either) ?

We have been talking mainly about limiters, for example. Limiters don't come into contact with the stock so how in God's name can you come up with your statement above?_

_2) Neither have you adequately responded to Bob's comment regarding centrifugal forces stopping your cutter from allegedly flying out (unless the wedge has dropped out). Still waiting on that one._


----------



## heimlaga (20 Dec 2014)

doctor Bob":fx4z1o9h said:


> heimlaga":fx4z1o9h said:
> 
> 
> > Still there is a problem. It is called MONEY.
> ...



I try to work as safely as I can. 
-I make my own guards to modern specifications for my old machines.
-All my machines have emergency stops and all that should have brakes have brakes.
-I am scrounging parts for a better air filtation system in the shop to protect my lungs.
However theese are the kind of safety improvements I can do myself between paying jobs or in my spare time when there is nothing profitable to do.
Adding home made limiters to an old cutter block would be more dangerous than using it without limiters so in that case the investment has to be paid for in cash which does not exist. There is no way to work around this money shortage as a home made solution wouldn't be good enough to do it's job.
For the same reason I drive a car without airbags or ABS. I cannot make them and do not have enough surplus money to buy a car for.

The economical downturn in Finland forces many small businesses to work for far less than the actual production cost covering investments and upgrades with loans in the hope that they can earn the money back in the long term despite the fact that there is no such profit marigin. Eventually this debth spiral tends to end in bankrupcy. 
I am debt-free so I can stay out of this race towards the bottom but all this unsound competition means that I cannot rise my prizes above the absolute minimum needed to cover minimum costs and pay for a low living standard. Still at this prize level many potential customers choose my competitors on the basis of cost alone. 
Once many enough of them have gone bankrupt I will probably be able to rise my profit marigins quite a bit and make a good bit of money but that is still years into the future. 
Quitting and getting another job is not an option as I spent two years looking for a job with no sucsess before I set up this business. I had seen other unemployed people set up their businesses with loaned money and go bankrupt so I decided to not follow their route that leads even deeper into powerty and debth.

As you see..... there is no choice...


----------



## Doug B (20 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":3bez56ao said:


> doctor Bob":3bez56ao said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3bez56ao said:
> ...




Clearly he does :lol:


----------



## RogerS (21 Dec 2014)

Well, Jacob. Still waiting for an answer to those two questions. I see that you have been visiting the forum last night and so can't have failed to see my earlier repeat post requesting the two answers. 

If you don't give any answers then the only conclusion to be drawn is that:

a) you realise that you posted a load of rubbish...another throw-away comment as per usual...but aren't man enough to admit that you were wrong

or

(b) simply trolling

and that any future posts of yours on the forum should be treated with extreme circumspection and caution.

Note I said 'an answer'. Not a wriggle. Not a 'slip'n'slide'. 

I await with baited breath.


----------



## stuartpaul (21 Dec 2014)

Jacob":2uhd105y said:


> snip
> 
> How I would transfer the same level of caution to an employee is another question altogether.



Just out of interest Jacob do you have employees?


----------



## Jacob (21 Dec 2014)

Is this your last post - again?


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2014)

stuartpaul":1n6x8o7d said:


> Jacob":1n6x8o7d said:
> 
> 
> > snip
> ...


Not at the mo. I'm virtually retired. But if I was going to inflict my alternative methods on employees I'd be very circumspect about it - perhaps consult HSE.


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## RogerS (21 Dec 2014)

Jacob":z5vfk81n said:


> Is this your last post - again?




So there we have it, Jacob.

You have been caught BANG TO RIGHTS ! Clear for all to see. Your constant refusal to answer those two simple questions shows you up to be what you are. A troll. Nothing more and nothing less. Either that or you simply have not got the guts to admit you were wrong. Man up for once.

Anyway, it's once more off to the Ignore dump for you. 

Your posts are too highly questionable as to veracity or accuracy for my taste.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2014)

You keep promising to ignore me. Do it now - don't wait a moment longer!


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## rhrwilliams (21 Dec 2014)

Going slightly back to the original topic , I thought I'd let everyone know despite it probably not being most sensible idea , I've bought the spindle moulder anyway as I couldn't resist the lure of it ! 

If I still have my hands in tact after using it I'll let you all know how I get on  

On a serious note , it's missing a guard and I obvuously need to get this sorted before using it , I'll post a pic up in the next couple of days and perhaps people could help me source a replacment or I can get one made - seems to be quite straightforward to make a replacement .


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## RogerS (21 Dec 2014)

Good call! You're looking for a Shaw guard but if you fit a power feed then the Shaw guard becomes redundant.


----------



## blackrodd (21 Dec 2014)

Looking at you're original post, glad you have bought the spindle, were you able to have a demo and the chance to buy any up to date tooling?
As you are able to see by previous posts The moulder needs treating with respect and a day with someone like Peter Sefton, if he's not too far away, will pay dividends as you should then have some knowledge of what you should do, or not to do!
It could be said, The Shaw guard is really a pressure system, which when set up properly, holds the timber stock, being worked, snug and securely in place, against the fence.
With the shaw guard in place, you're hands now have no need or purpose to be near the cutters or cutter block.
Even for trial/test cuts, the shaw guard will be in place, and the stock is fed continuously, nose to tail, when possible, and do not use a push stick on end of the the final piece, use another sacrificial piece.
You're starting with a decent make, which is halfway there.
HTH Regards Rodders


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## heimlaga (21 Dec 2014)

Great!
A spindle moulder is a very useful machine. Treat it with the respect it deserves and it will be fairly safe too.


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## RobinBHM (21 Dec 2014)

rhrwilliams":soquxcg1 said:


> Going slightly back to the original topic , I thought I'd let everyone know despite it probably not being most sensible idea , I've bought the spindle moulder anyway as I couldn't resist the lure of it !



Congratulations on buying the spindle moulder  They are very useful machines. Of course it depends on the type of work you are planning to use it for, but I would suggest a 125mm x 50mm rebate block to be one of the most useful blocks, and a relatively safe piece of tooling as a start, as it has a circular block, with minimum cutter projection. 

Of the universal blocks, the Whitehill 96 x 55 is better than a standard euro block as the blanks can have a larger profiling area. I use http://www.cutterprofilers.co.uk/html/c ... _list.html for profile grinding, prices are from £60.00+vat including limiters and they are done on a cnc grinder. Be careful about universal blocks / cutters, the cutters may be different thicknesses and some blocks only take some thicknesses -not so universal then!

I havent used shaw guards for many years so cant advise on those, but my tips would be, read up about false fences and use where you can, place a large block of wood on the table when starting the machine with a new set up and when using a set up piece make sure it is quite a bit longer than the infeed fence so you can fully grip the piece of timber and ease it from the cutter once youve done your trial cut.

Also congratulations on a thread more controversial than sharpening


----------



## Peter Sefton (21 Dec 2014)

The spindle is a great piece of kit, I think the old shaw guards are so much better than the newer ones. If you can find some old Wadkin or simular they should serve you well (If they will fit)

The power feed is a great bit of kit if you can afford one, I wouldn't be without mine.

The HSE videos may be of help, I would recommend you put the shaw guard in place before breaking through the false fence (from memory this is not done in the video!) Do make sure the guard won't come into contact with the cutters when pushing back the fence!

http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/video.htm

Cheers Peter


----------



## James-1986 (21 Dec 2014)

RogerS":2d0nc590 said:


> Now, if we could perhaps return to the two questions ?
> 
> _1) What exactly in the codes makes precise copying difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive (not that I agree with those last three comments either) ?
> 
> We have been talking mainly about limiters, for example. Limiters don't come into contact with the stock so how in God's name can you come up with your statement above?_



You have to grind 4 bits of metal rather than 1. The limiters need to be accurately ground in relation to the cutters to comply with the regs. You need expensive machinery if you want to do it yourself. The block needs to be a very precise fit on the spindle if you want it cutting on two.

My Wadkin safety blocks are far cheaper and far quicker to setup than modern chip limited tooling; end of story. The only way you can get the best out of modern tooling is with the correct grinding and setting machines, simply not worth it for the small timers like me.


----------



## Jacob (21 Dec 2014)

blackrodd":3um36pg7 said:


> Looking at you're original post, glad you have bought the spindle, were you able to have a demo and the chance to buy any up to date tooling?
> As you are able to see by previous posts The moulder needs treating with respect and a day with someone like Peter Sefton, if he's not too far away, will pay dividends as you should then have some knowledge of what you should do, or not to do!
> It could be said, The Shaw guard is really a pressure system, which when set up properly, holds the timber stock, being worked, snug and securely in place, against the fence.
> With the shaw guard in place, you're hands now have no need or purpose to be near the cutters or cutter block.
> ...



Agree but I see a push stick as a general purpose sacrificial piece. The standard pattern has that knuckle cut-out which makes it a hold down as well as a hold in - in fact you end up using them like two hands without fingers. :shock: They also extend your reach for and aft so you can get a longer through movement without stopping and starting as you change hands. There's more to them than meets the eye.


----------



## Peter Sefton (21 Dec 2014)

If using push stick on the spindle moulder make sure they pass the cutter block on the outside of the shaw guard!

I worked in a workshop where they were banned on the spindle moulder. They told me of a case where the push stick was kicked back after contact with the block and ended up splitting and shooting up inside the workers arm. This is why I won't let them be used on my planer and rather use a full size spare to push the last piece through the spindle between shaw guards in both directions or better still the power feed. 

Cheers Peter


----------



## RobinBHM (21 Dec 2014)

I have always believed heavy duty spindle moulders should come with power feed units as part of the package but only very top end machines, such Martin and SCM have such an option. No joinery company would use a spindle without a power feed. It is so easy to set that it is worth using for running a single piece.

A power feed transforms the use of a spindle moulder in consistency, ease of use, safety etc. Once youve used a power fed spindle you wouldnt want to go back to pressure guards. Working with shaw guards it is impossible to maintain a constant feed rate and actually pretty difficult to not stop during hand changeover.


----------



## RogerS (21 Dec 2014)

James-1986":9c9ympmd said:


> RogerS":9c9ympmd said:
> 
> 
> > Now, if we could perhaps return to the two questions ?
> ...



But you can get a set of cutters and limiters ground for a very reasonable price from guys like NLM. You don't need to have the machines yourself. 

The question was what in the codes made precise copying impossible. The answer is nothing. Jacob is wrong. End of.


----------



## RogerS (21 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":30gbqka0 said:


> If using push stick on the spindle moulder make sure they pass the cutter block on the outside of the shaw guard!
> 
> I worked in a workshop where they were banned on the spindle moulder. They told me of a case where the push stick was kicked back after contact with the block and ended up splitting and shooting up inside the workers arm. This is why I won't let them be used on my planer and rather use a full size spare to push the last piece through the spindle between shaw guards in both directions or better still the power feed.
> 
> Cheers Peter



A good point, Peter. Although I swear I read one member saying how good push sticks were but forgetting to add your key piece of information.


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":21iz9562 said:


> If using push stick on the spindle moulder make sure they pass the cutter block on the outside of the shaw guard!
> 
> I worked in a workshop where they were banned on the spindle moulder. They told me of a case where the push stick was kicked back after contact with the block and ended up splitting and shooting up inside the workers arm. This is why I won't let them be used on my planer and rather use a full size spare to push the last piece through the spindle between shaw guards in both directions or better still the power feed.
> 
> Cheers Peter


I think that story is totally improbable. I can safely poke my plywood push stick into the block and it just gets neatly trimmed. And I poke it between the shaw guard and the fence if necessary. Absolutely no problem, as safe as houses. They often get chopped or trimmed and I make a new set
Your story may be anecdotal and perhaps based on a plastic push stick as these can shatter and splinter. Cheap plywood just gets frayed and chewed.
There are a lot of horror stories around woodwork machinery but some of them are fantasy.

PS the push sticks I am talking about are the standard pattern as per image below but made of ply. Impossible to injure yourself with the handle end. Perhaps your story was about someone using a bit of thin lath picked up in the workshop - not the same thing at all.







PSA I'm very pleased with my push-stick system and would highly recommend it. Copy a set like the one above using 1/2" cheap ply. No point in using better material as you actually want it to fray and be chewed rather than thrusting back at you. MDF might be too weak and break if you force it, plastic not good, solid wood variable. I don't know - some trial and error could be useful, but cheap ply certainly is safe.


----------



## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":dnf7bsqs said:


> I have always believed heavy duty spindle moulders should come with power feed units as part of the package but only very top end machines, such Martin and SCM have such an option. No joinery company would use a spindle without a power feed. It is so easy to set that it is worth using for running a single piece.
> 
> A power feed transforms the use of a spindle moulder in consistency, ease of use, safety etc. Once youve used a power fed spindle you wouldnt want to go back to pressure guards. Working with shaw guards it is impossible to maintain a constant feed rate and actually pretty difficult to not stop during hand changeover.


I agree with all that but in the absence of power feed using push sticks (as per my earlier post) gives you a longer reach, more control and a steadier throughput without changing hands so much, so the end product is better. They are like arm extensions.


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## ColeyS1 (22 Dec 2014)

The armadillo block doesn't even need limiter knives :lol:


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## blackrodd (22 Dec 2014)

ColeyS1":22yena2i said:


> The armadillo block doesn't even need limiter knives :lol:




Please can you post a picture of the armadillo block, I am always interested in newer technology of a practical nature.
Thanks and regards Rodders


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## ColeyS1 (22 Dec 2014)

not the cheapest but I see no reason why you couldn't buy the blanks and grind them yourself. Just grind one and stick in a balancer, with the added bonus of having the correct limiter discs. Depends how often you need to match custom profiles I suppose. I was always under the impression it was the cutters coming loose which forced the change. Cant see how limiters would improove safety that much if you're using power feed, might give a bit better finish...


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## blackrodd (22 Dec 2014)

Coleys1, Thanks for that, I'll look further into these, very interesting!
Regards Rodders


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2014)

Coley, many thanks for that link. An interesting tool but when you look at the pricing...jeez! Not only do you have to buy their profiling machine and jig as far as I can see but also the extra disks. You're talking many thousands ££££ and so you'd need to be requiring a hell of a lot of non-standard profiles to make it break-even. 

Don't forget that, under PUWER, limiters are only mandatory for handfeeding.

They cleverly achieve the 'no limiter required' statement by effectively building a 'virtual' limiter into the block as it is assembled and so their block meets BSEN847-1 (their promo is wrong!) specifies the maximum projection of the cutter and depends on whether the block is round form or non-round form. There's is effectively round form. It also explains why they are allowed to put MAN (for manual or handfeed) on the block. 

You can see more detail here. As an aside it is interesting to note the accident stats...

_Most accidents at woodworking machines are due to the operator’s hands or fingers coming into contact with the rotating cutters. Amputation usually results. Between 1993 and 1996 there were 165 injuries (amputations and severe lacerations) at machines where limited cutter projection tooling could have been fitted._

although a certain complete and utter fool would have you believe that limiters are not needed for hand feeding.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

Neat idea the Armadillo.

Roger - limiters are not needed if there is no likelihood of your fingers getting anywhere near the cutters. Simple really. 
I'm quite pleased that my methods successfully eliminate the major cause of accidents.
Is that your last post?


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2014)

Coley, I forgot to highlight from the regs (about which you may be already aware but am posting for the benefit of others) ...

Hand-fed is what dictates the use of limiters. The definition of hand-fed is further clarified ..

_The term ‘hand-fed’ includes the use of demountable power feed units and hand-operated carriages on which the workpiece is placed manually or clamped._ 

Hand-operated carriages look like this





Only a complete imbecile would argue that push-sticks were not covered by the term 'hand-fed'.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

RogerS":1jxd6znw said:


> .....
> Only a complete imbecile would argue that push-sticks were not covered by the term 'hand-fed'.


Only a complete imbecile would read the regs over and over again as you are doing, and fail to understand them every time. 
It says quite clearly "... Following the guidance is not compulsory,unless specifically stated, and you are free to take other action. .......". 

I don't think you are able to understand this Roger, you haven't the brain power so I wouldn't continue the struggle if I were you. You keep posting drivel in this thread and so far you have said nothing of any interest or use to anyone. A complete waste of space.
Why don't you make this your last post and put me on "ignore"? You keep promising - pull your finger out and do something useful for a change you silly twerp..


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## iNewbie (22 Dec 2014)

Jacob":1avy2r7x said:


> I don't think you are able to understand this Roger, *you haven't the brain power *so I wouldn't continue the struggle if I were you.* You keep posting drivel* in this thread and so far *you have said nothing of any interest* or use to anyone.* A complete waste of space.*
> Why don't you make this your last post and put me on "ignore"? You keep promising - *pull your finger out and do something useful for a change you silly twerp*..



Why do the moderators continue to let a sh*t-stain like you post here. You regularly stink-up threads for lord knows what issues you have. I'm all for a bit of banter but yours is pure abuse.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

Roger's found a little friend! :lol:


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## rhrwilliams (22 Dec 2014)

Now now ladies lets be nice .... It is christmas x


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

Yes sorry but it gets exasperating when you are followed every step of the way by a troll - as of course they know full well


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## RobinBHM (22 Dec 2014)

Jacob":2tgh2gzf said:


> RogerS":2tgh2gzf said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



It is specifically stated:

on page 1 of the guide notes it says: 
Limited cutter projection tooling should be designed
and constructed to meet BS EN 847-1

Only items NOT specifically stated are not compulsory.


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## rhrwilliams (22 Dec 2014)

So going off the regulations topic ,..... I picked up the spindle today and also got a euro block for £25 and shaw guards ! Result , the guy also switched it on and did a couple of cuts and all seemed good and not the fire breathing dragon I expected .

I'm going to get a few cutters / limiters and see how I get on !


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## rhrwilliams (22 Dec 2014)

Nothing too fancy ... A t. & g to start with 

I was going to buy from Scott and Sergent unless anyone has any better suggestions


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":2c1bne01 said:


> Jacob":2c1bne01 said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":2c1bne01 said:
> ...


I don't design or construct limited projection tooling. In any case the operative word is "should" which means it is not mandatory, compulsory or even a legal obligation. It is advisory - a recommended standard, a code of practice etc etc..
I think all this was explained a long way back but some people just refuse to understand it.


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## RobinBHM (22 Dec 2014)

I tend to buy from wealdon tools

I came across these the other day http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40mm-Euro-Spi ... 2a40480f71

Dont know if they are good though


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## rhrwilliams (22 Dec 2014)

Ohh there cheap. Anyone use these , are they ok ?


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## RobinBHM (22 Dec 2014)

> Only items NOT specifically stated are not compulsory. I don't design or construct limited projection tooling. In any case the operative word is "should" which means it is not mandatory, compulsory or even a legal obligation. It is advisory - a recommended standard, a code of practice etc etc..
> I think all this was explained a long way back but some people just refuse to understand it[.



This HSE site

http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/tooling.htm 
has images of spindle moulder blocks not limited and says they are illegal -not very ambiguous......


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## rhrwilliams (22 Dec 2014)

Can anyone give me a steer on the type of cutter I need to make this type of panel bead moulding

http://www.thestainedglassdoorscompany. ... 1280f9.jpg 

I cant seem to see it on the link posted above , or the Scott and sergeant one ....but to be frank I'm not 100% what i'm looking for !


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## Peter Sefton (22 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":3e8ggzb2 said:


> > Only items NOT specifically stated are not compulsory. I don't design or construct limited projection tooling. In any case the operative word is "should" which means it is not mandatory, compulsory or even a legal obligation. It is advisory - a recommended standard, a code of practice etc etc..
> > I think all this was explained a long way back but some people just refuse to understand it[.
> 
> 
> ...



These regulations do not apply to Jacob as he uses his ego and self believe to push the timber through the machine.

As stated many time within this thread it is illegal to use cutter blocks without limiters unless you are using machines with interlocks. This has been the case for over 11 years.

Some people will not be happy or convinced until they have lost their fingers or have caused the loss to their employees or people they have advised on an open forum!

These regulations have been updated this year 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":175bmt1j said:


> > Only items NOT specifically stated are not compulsory. I don't design or construct limited projection tooling. In any case the operative word is "should" which means it is not mandatory, compulsory or even a legal obligation. It is advisory - a recommended standard, a code of practice etc etc..
> > I think all this was explained a long way back but some people just refuse to understand it[.
> 
> 
> ...


It _is_ ambiguous as it is contradicted in other publications from the HSE including as linked to from that same page. Basically there is scope to use deprecated tooling if "other" safety measures are in place. 
All in all it's sensible but yes it can seem very unclear.


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## blackrodd (22 Dec 2014)

rhrwilliams":34msobmr said:


> So going off the regulations topic ,..... I picked up the spindle today and also got a euro block for £25 and shaw guards ! Result , the guy also switched it on and did a couple of cuts and all seemed good and not the fire breathing dragon I expected .
> 
> I'm going to get a few cutters / limiters and see how I get on !




Glad to hear you've heard the spindle running and had a demo.
If you aren't getting a day with Mr Sefton, I Suggest you at least google or do whatever you need to get a copy of the spindle makers handbook/instructions and mug up on it, someone here may have a copy! 
There's probably stuff on u tube for you're Startrite model being used.
When you are setting up for use, allow enough time to complete the setting without people talking to you, going for lunch or answering the 'phone, or going to the toilet, any distractions at all, That will help cut down the risks.
Get a setting system, number one, UNPLUG THE MACHINE! then select the cutters and sharpen them, select the block, etc, etc I hope you enjoy the machine, just be very wary Regards Rodders


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## rhrwilliams (22 Dec 2014)

I did a router course some time ago with a lovely bloke called colin searle who lives very near me. I really enjoyed the day so was going to book myself for his spindle day in the new year. 

When I did the router course I got a blocking for my bad table saw practice and since seeing colin, have been using all my guards , push sticks etc etc and still have fingers


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## rhrwilliams (22 Dec 2014)

http://www.routercourses.co.uk

Well worth the money in my opinion, cant recommend highly enough.


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## blackrodd (22 Dec 2014)

rhrwilliams":3ve0kl8q said:


> Can anyone give me a steer on the type of cutter I need to make this type of panel bead moulding
> 
> http://www.thestainedglassdoorscompany. ... 1280f9.jpg
> 
> I cant seem to see it on the link posted above , or the Scott and sergeant one ....but to be frank I'm not 100% what i'm looking for !



That mould is about 3/8"x 7/8" finished sizes, and i would mould those off the edge of a piece of 6"x 1"on it's flat through the spindle and cut it off at 5/8"through the saw, fine blade, no planing, a router would do it too. 
Also seen it in Richard Burbidge moulding rack B&Q and all the merchants, Rodders


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## shed9 (22 Dec 2014)

I've had a spindle moulder for over a year now and hardly use it cause' it scares the utter life out of me. Appreciate the posts on recommendations for training locations by people. Will get one of these booked in the New Year.


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## blackrodd (22 Dec 2014)

rhrwilliams":ts3gakcg said:


> http://www.routercourses.co.uk
> 
> Well worth the money in my opinion, cant recommend highly enough.



I just love going into someone's workshop like that, I get all envious of the kit and space, a really good learning environment too! and smelling the pine sawdust and shaving smell, lovely.
Regards Rodders.


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## blackrodd (22 Dec 2014)

shed9":ufphv45y said:


> I've had a spindle moulder for over a year now and hardly use it cause' it scares the utter life out of me. Appreciate the posts on recommendations for training locations by people. Will get one of these booked in the New Year.


 What is it, what is it, do tell, always interested! Rodders


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## shed9 (22 Dec 2014)

blackrodd":1gxlzsoo said:


> shed9":1gxlzsoo said:
> 
> 
> > I've had a spindle moulder for over a year now and hardly use it cause' it scares the utter life out of me. Appreciate the posts on recommendations for training locations by people. Will get one of these booked in the New Year.
> ...



Nothing too interesting I'm afraid, just an Axi WS1000TA. To be fair it's not a bad machine, it's solid where it counts although I can see the fence being replaced soon.


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## rhrwilliams (22 Dec 2014)

Rodders, I ment, do you know where you can get the cutter to fit the spindle that will cut that type of beading (or what number it is), I'm a little lost with the thousands available !

Thanks


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## ColeyS1 (22 Dec 2014)

So providing you always use power feed could you buy pinned blanks and grind one yourself and pop a similar weight balancer in tuther side ? - have no limiters at all ?
I only ever had one cutter break but really use to enjoy the challenge of grinding a cutter to match. Majority of incidents I heard of regarding cutters coming loose were the tweaking the angle stage. (Slackening off the bolt, tapping the cutter then forgetting to tighten it back up) 
That's my question with the armadillo. Could you hand grind 1 single cutter, pop the discs down to suit, then slip in any balancer on the other. Other than vibrating the machine to pieces would it in theory be legal ?


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## RobinBHM (22 Dec 2014)

rhrwilliams":3o41h57u said:


> Can anyone give me a steer on the type of cutter I need to make this type of panel bead moulding
> 
> http://www.thestainedglassdoorscompany. ... 1280f9.jpg
> 
> I cant seem to see it on the link posted above , or the Scott and sergeant one ....but to be frank I'm not 100% what i'm looking for !



Welcome to the world of standard euro profiles..........lots of profiles never any useful ones!

There are a few panel beads, 40mm cutter no 81, 106 , 107 easy to view on wealdon site. The cutter is set slightly below the spindle bed for some of these.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

rhrwilliams":32xr1t6i said:


> Nothing too fancy ... A t. & g to start with
> 
> I was going to buy from Scott and Sergent unless anyone has any better suggestions



I've bought quite a few good blocks off eBay. You often see good used ones come up from time to time.

If you want to get your own cutters/limiters made then NLM provide a very good service.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

ColeyS1":2ibe725r said:


> So providing you always use power feed could you buy pinned blanks and grind one yourself and pop a similar weight balancer in tuther side ? - have no limiters at all ?
> I only ever had one cutter break but really use to enjoy the challenge of grinding a cutter to match. Majority of incidents I heard of regarding cutters coming loose were the tweaking the angle stage. (Slackening off the bolt, tapping the cutter then forgetting to tighten it back up)
> That's my question with the armadillo. Could you hand grind 1 single cutter, pop the discs down to suit, then slip in any balancer on the other. Other than vibrating the machine to pieces would it in theory be legal ?



It's hard to see from the pictures exactly what the Armadillo consists of. There are times when I look at it and it seems as if there is a separate cutter as per a standard block. But then you read the text and it seems to be that you grind the cutter profile out of their discs...which seems to me to defeat the object of their design. One thing is clear to me and that is that the limiter is built-up by virtue of selecting the discs that follow the profile of the cutting profile - in other words the block becomes the limiter.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

OK..done a bit more research. The actual patent can be found here.

The cutters ARE separate and they say that you can use non-pinned cutters...ie you can make use of existing cutters. In fact, it looks as if pinned cutters have no way of being used as there are no pins that I can see.

I was also correct in my understanding how the virtual limiter is built up.


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## Peter Sefton (23 Dec 2014)

I had a quick chat to the guys that sell the Armadillo yesterday, not cheap.

The block £330 for 50mm high including 19 plates.

A pair of cutters is between £70.80 and £84.00 and discs are between £7.20 and £13.80.

I am not sure if they comply to the regs, my assumption would be if they are not pinned they would not. 

Cheers Peter


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## ColeyS1 (23 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":v1ecjggm said:


> I had a quick chat to the guys that sell the Armadillo yesterday, not cheap.
> 
> The block £330 for 50mm high including 19 plates.
> 
> ...


They do have a way that they couldn't accidentally fall out 





I need to read this entire thread from start to finish- theres alot to take in :lol:


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

I can't see the point of them now, to be honest. Reading their blurb, it says ...

_The innovative Armadillo Cutter Block System is designed to overcome the *excessive costs of knives and limiters for short run non-standard profiles*. Because our blocks do not use limiters they have been solving joiners problems for nearly a decade._ (my bold).

Really? Excessive? Not compared to the cost of their system. In any event they are misleading in their blurb as you still need to have that non-standard cutter made and more importantly it's not as if you can go to someone like NLM and use a standard Euro-blank because as you can see from Coley's photo, the cutters are special in themselves as they need a keyway cut in the back ! So you are looking at having to buy their expensive profile grinding system as well. That will set you back nearly £5k (inc VAT). So the only cost you are 'saving' is on the limiters.

If I was Peter Jones on Dragon's Den I think I'd be saying "This is a solution looking for a problem and on that basis, I'm out!"


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## ColeyS1 (23 Dec 2014)

Can't you just grind one yourself freehand/old school ?


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

ColeyS1":2plv4d29 said:


> Can't you just grind one yourself freehand/old school ?



No reason why not provided you have the proper blank. Still think it's a solution looking for a problem.


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## ColeyS1 (23 Dec 2014)

So you'd only need one cutter and any suitable shaped/weight balancer?

If you it was always something you did a lot could you buy ebay no 151426381912 and get someone to wang a groove in it they cut,grind tinker to your hearts content :|


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

ColeyS1":3tzqk0b7 said:


> So you'd only need one cutter and any suitable shaped/weight balancer?
> 
> If you it was always something you did a lot could you buy ebay no 151426381912 and get someone to wang a groove in it they cut,grind tinker to your hearts content :|



But you still have to shell out for all those plates to make up the block to the profile of the cutter. Think 'laminated' block. 

Looking at that eBay link seems to me you're simply making work for yourself. One cutter also doesn't give you a very good finish, does it?


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## ColeyS1 (23 Dec 2014)

RogerS":23lajcam said:


> ColeyS1":23lajcam said:
> 
> 
> > So you'd only need one cutter and any suitable shaped/weight balancer?
> ...


So longs the cutters sharp it'll cut fine - that's how we all managed for years before the new regulations. 
Legally Could I use one pinned cutter in a euro block so longs I used a power feed ? I'm getting more and more confused :lol:


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2014)

RogerS":3g94kknd said:


> ... One cutter also doesn't give you a very good finish, does it?


One works really well - better than two cutters which don't exactly match. Even if they do match, reducing the feed speed would give a good finish with just one.

The Armadillo block looks interesting - it tackles the basic prob of the new regs i.e. they seriously curtail the creative possibilities of the spindle moulder. It would be brilliant to have the freedom and ease of use of a home made french cutter, and a good level of safety.

I imagine it's only a matter of time before tool makers satisfy this need and we are back to an era of cheap effective spindle moulding.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

ColeyS1":1h4umx3v said:


> ......
> Legally Could I use one pinned cutter in a euro block so longs I used a power feed ? I'm getting more and more confused :lol:



No... see Peter's post further on up (unless you're Jacob who has his own set of rules and is above the law) .


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":nmxsd9un said:


> ......
> These regulations do not apply to Jacob as he uses his ego and self believe to push the timber through the machine.....


No, wrong again - I use two long push sticks and my hands are in no danger whatsoever. The push sticks take all the punishment if anything goes wrong. I don't know why you find this so difficult to understand.
I also am keen on the hands-up reflex - you train yourself (mainly by reading the accident horror stories) to back off hands-up at the slightest sign of things going wrong, rather than trying to grab and control the workpiece. Ditto with a TS. 
I see it rather like feeding a wild animal - you don't let your hands get in range of the teeth and be prepared to step back sharpish! 

These two safety measures together just about eliminate the main cause of spindle and TS accidents i.e. accidental hand contact. 
I can see why they aren't attractive - too simple and low tech for the gadget men and tool sellers. Perhaps there would be scope for making money from cheap consumable soft ply push sticks? Not everybody wants to make their own.


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## rhrwilliams (23 Dec 2014)

If its illegal to use non limited cutters / blocks , then why do shops sell them ? Is it perhaps because the HSE regulations apply strictly to workplace activities, e.g the regulations only actually apply to commercial activities. For example the CDM regs do not apply on domestic projects. 

Thus is Jacob wants to use push sticks and non limited cutters thats his choice and perfectly ok, provided its outside the commercial domain . However, if he employed a person and did not follow the guidance he would be in contravention of the HSE guidance and his operation / workshop could be shut down by the HSE, or worse fined / sued for bad practices. Additionally, as a employee if I was harmed I would be in my right to sue Jacob for not providing a safe manor in which to work (providing the HSE guidance was explicit on the use of limiters etc).

There are many a construction firm who have ended up in court with the HSE for things like this (breaching H&S on construction sites, scaffold collapses , near data misses etc etc etc etc) However, if its a home workshop being used solely by one person , these regs clearly don't apply !


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## rhrwilliams (23 Dec 2014)

Or is it that they are sold to be used with power feeds etc ? and by the way the above was a question really, not me telling everyone what the rules were !


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

Almost, rhrw.

I can't see quite how shops could differentiate TBH. You have the pinned Euroblock and it can take a pair of cutters and a pair of limiters. Cutters and limiters are bought usually separately from the block supplier or as is more often the case, you already have a block and need a new set of cutters/limiters. It''s perfectly legitimate to just use cutters but in the right machine (interlocks etc). 

The law applies to employers, employees and self-employed. Even if you are a hobbyist but then use your machine to make something that you then sell on then technically you are also covered by the regulations. The only exception to this is if you are Jacob Butler in which case PUWER regulations, the laws of physics and reaction times do not apply.

I always thought, until reading Peter Sefton's post above, that you were OK with a power feed. Not so.


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## ColeyS1 (23 Dec 2014)

RogerS":24x7p7ru said:


> ColeyS1":24x7p7ru said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...


No need for the rudeness :shock:
Haven't had chance to read the whole thread yet. I was only trying to figure it out so if asked I could pass on the right info


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2014)

RogerS":1im4ibvz said:


> ...........the laws of physics and reaction times do not apply.......


Whats this got to do with it? Reaction times don't come into it as far as I'm concerned - the hands-up reflex is about moving away (however slowly) rather than moving towards.

Instead of blathering on offensively with feeble attempts at sarcasm why not explain what is wrong with my safety measures? You don't really add anything constructive to these threads - have a go at saying something interesting for a change.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

ColeyS1":3pklgpo1 said:


> RogerS":3pklgpo1 said:
> 
> 
> > ColeyS1":3pklgpo1 said:
> ...



Coley...nothing aimed at you....when you read the whole thread you will see how the exasperation comes about.


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## RobinBHM (23 Dec 2014)

Does anybody know what interlocked guards are, and whether they are used on spindle moulders? -I understand they need to be* interlocked movable guards and/or self-closing guards*

Jacob: I think you are just playing devils advocate to make us all be more aware of safety, in reality you've got a workshop stacked floor to ceiling with compliant tooling and thousands of limiters  

Seriously though this thread has made me think more about safety on the spindle moulder and I need to improve training in the workshop on this and other machines.


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":uqu4ks46 said:


> Does anybody know what interlocked guards are, and whether they are used on spindle moulders? -I understand they need to be* interlocked movable guards and/or self-closing guards*
> 
> Jacob: I think you are just playing devils advocate to make us all be more aware of safety, in reality you've got a workshop stacked floor to ceiling with compliant tooling and thousands of limiters
> 
> Seriously though this thread has made me think more about safety on the spindle moulder and I need to improve training in the workshop on this and other machines.


I've got both, compliant and non compliant.
I keep asking what is wrong with my safety system outlined above but nobody has come up with an answer so far (except "rules is rules" etc. which is a bit feeble to say the least)
I use the same with compliant safety cutters too - these could give you a very nasty cut and I not sure that they would save a finger in many circumstances. Not safe enough - I'm safer my way.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":m9c305m3 said:


> Does anybody know what interlocked guards are, and whether they are used on spindle moulders? -I understand they need to be* interlocked movable guards and/or self-closing guards*



Can't answer that, Robin, but for me (and many others) using limiters obviates the need for anything more complicated!
...



RobinBHM":m9c305m3 said:


> Seriously though this thread has made me think more about safety on the spindle moulder and I need to improve training in the workshop on this and other machines.



Power feed and false fences work for me! In my early days of using the spindle moulder, I've had a couple of 'brown-trouser' moments. The first was when I stupidly (and as Peter Sefton admirably pointed out in an earlier post is not a good idea) used a push stick between guard and cutter. Luckily for me the kickback from the pushstick merely bruised the fleshy bit of my palm by the thumb and not sent spearing its way through my forearm....ouch!

The second was when I was using the tenoning table and had a backer piece not clamped properly. The backer piece was ripped out of its location by the cutter and fired out the back of the extraction port, through the extraction hose and embedded into the plasterboard.


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## Peter Sefton (23 Dec 2014)

RobinBHM":1drvog6z said:


> Does anybody know what interlocked guards are, and whether they are used on spindle moulders? -I understand they need to be* interlocked movable guards and/or self-closing guards*
> 
> Jacob: I think you are just playing devils advocate to make us all be more aware of safety, in reality you've got a workshop stacked floor to ceiling with compliant tooling and thousands of limiters
> 
> Seriously though this thread has made me think more about safety on the spindle moulder and I need to improve training in the workshop on this and other machines.




Interlocked guards are not usually found on spindle moulders, more akin to four sided planers and the like. These machine have interlocked guards (hoods that mean the machine will not work without the hood in place) When the hood is in place you are no where near the cutters and cannot come into contact with them. These machines can use none limited cutters and tooling without pins or other holding devices that stop cutters coming out. 

The use of push sticks and power feeds does not mean that "Whitehill" style blocks without limiters or pins can be used on spindle moulders as the power feed can just be swung out of the way and the user is now exposed to the danger. The idea is to make it fool proof (as we know they are plenty of fools around)

Someone may wish to contact the HSE to see if they know better than the regs, or try Didac in Bristol they ran the HSE training earlier this month and are on the advisory committee for the HSE. 

I would be interested to see if I have been wrong for years, I did also undertake some specific update training with Didac in house about 10 years ago to ensure the College I worked at was compliant.

http://didac.co.uk The boss is John sorry I can't remember his surname. They may be able to help but may wish paying for their advice as people who teach normally do.

It is the responsability of users or read the regs as have been signposted several times over this thread, the other option is for us to forward this thread to the HSE and see if they wish to make comment on the actions of none compliance.


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":3pln2suk said:


> .....
> It is the responsability of users or read the regs as have been signposted several times over this thread, the other option is for us to forward this thread to the HSE and see if they wish to make comment on the actions of none compliance.


Yes why not?
As I understand it the rules which apply to me are advisory and it clearly states that alternative safety procedures may be acceptable.
My procedures even without limiters are safer than hand-fed processes with limiters. My hands are always well away from the cutters except when the machine is switched off, which is the weakest link - special attention needed here and a good brake on the spindle etc.


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## blackrodd (23 Dec 2014)

rhrwilliams":2pb7t11y said:


> Rodders, I ment, do you know where you can get the cutter to fit the spindle that will cut that type of beading (or what number it is), I'm a little lost with the thousands available !
> 
> Thanks




Sorry for the delay, I've been involved in hand to hand combat whilst Christmas shopping today!
I can't even remember the name of that beading.
I daresay one of the members has a source of cutters and may be able to steer you to it.
contact the cutter supplier and see if he has what you are after. 
Sorry I can't be any more helpful.
Regards Rodders


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## doctor Bob (23 Dec 2014)

Jacob":2wd8qwb0 said:


> I keep asking what is wrong with my safety system outlined above ....................




Are you meaning to repeat yourself or is it old age? Pop down the Doc's and get one of those memory tests, it seems to be getting worse as the years go by, you must be banging on close to the big ton now :lol:


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## rhrwilliams (23 Dec 2014)

Someone has already posted a link to a cutter that looks good enough for me


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## blackrodd (23 Dec 2014)

rhrwilliams":19yszslu said:


> Someone has already posted a link to a cutter that looks good enough for me



Glad to hear that! some of these blokes are pretty switched on and helpful. 
Regards Rodders


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2014)

RogerS":31h15mbf said:


> ....
> Power feed and false fences work for me! In my early days of using the spindle moulder, I've had a couple of 'brown-trouser' moments. The first was when I stupidly (and as Peter Sefton admirably pointed out in an earlier post is not a good idea) used a push stick between guard and cutter. Luckily for me the kickback from the pushstick merely bruised the fleshy bit of my palm by the thumb and not sent spearing its way through my forearm....ouch!.....


So what did you do next? Stick your hand in instead, and then your head to see where your fingers were? :roll: 

You've completely missed the point Roger. You were obviously doing something clumsily and instead of losing a finger you just got a shock and a little bruise, thanks to using a push stick. Exactly my point.
Using a push stick is a good idea even if you are an silly person. Especially if you are an silly person - it might save you from a nasty accident. 
Nobody should be deterred from using a push stick by silly stories like this one!
NB using a broad pushstick (see post above) made of cheap ply is the safest option. Laths of solid wood not so good but better than nothing.


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## RogerS (24 Dec 2014)

doctor Bob":vwquwhpt said:


> Go on Jacob, one more whack..........



Too good not to post again.


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## rhrwilliams (24 Dec 2014)

Roger / Jacob et all

This argument is getting quite Laboured now , you should all just get on and enjoy xmas

Peace and love x x x


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## shed9 (24 Dec 2014)

Any need for the backbiting up there and I mean everyone involved?


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## RogerS (24 Dec 2014)

My only concern is that forum members, especially those who are new or who are contemplating getting a spindle moulder are aware of the risks involved and also have an appreciation of the dangerous 'advice' being given here. If Jacob wishes to lose his fingers or hands or be prosecuted by HS&E then that is his prerogative but I would hate anyone else to have the same thing happen to them as a result of following his 'advice'.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2014)

Using push sticks is good advice, especially for beginners. 

Happy Christmas all!


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## RogerS (24 Dec 2014)

Jacob, I agree. The *APPROPRIATE* use of push sticks is good advice. *Provided* they are used correctly. 

Shoving them up a spindle moulder between guard and cutter, which you are suggesting is a good idea *IS NOT.*

Peter Sefton gave a very good example on Page 8, and the reasons, why a workshop banned the use of push-sticks on a spindle moulder but you pooh-poohed that viz.....

_I think that story is totally improbable. I can safely poke my plywood push stick into the block and it just gets neatly trimmed. And I poke it between the shaw guard and the fence if necessary. Absolutely no problem, as safe as houses._

It also happened to me as I posted above. You also pooh-poohed and belittled that.

You may consider the practice perfectly acceptable and safe. That is your prerogative.

You also advocate a policy of 'hands-up' if something goes wrong. That scares the hell out of me. The human mind and body cannot react that swiftly to such a event. Have you never seen a kickback from a table saw? All the advice given by HS&E focusses on minimising risk and taking the human out of the equation as much as possible. Surely it is better to have good working practices such that one is not placed in the situation of having to try to outpace a machine? 

I leave it for members to make up their own mind. I am just alerting them to what the industry in general considers are the dangers.


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## doctor Bob (24 Dec 2014)

Happy Christmas, peace and good will to you all


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2014)

RogerS":1qf30nlb said:


> Jacob, I agree. The *APPROPRIATE* use of push sticks is good advice. *Provided* they are used correctly.


 And if in doubt use them anyway. Better safe than sorry.


> .........
> You also advocate a policy of 'hands-up' if something goes wrong. That scares the hell out of me. The human mind and body cannot react that swiftly to such a event. Have you never seen a kickback from a table saw? All the advice given by HS&E focusses on minimising risk and taking the human out of the equation as much as possible. Surely it is better to have good working practices such that one is not placed in the situation of having to try to outpace a machine?.....


You have completely misunderstood this Roger and got it up side down. Sometimes I think you do it on purpose! :roll: :lol: 
What I recommend is precisely that you DON'T try to outpace the machine, but instead just back off. Resist the temptation to grab or poke at the workpiece when something has gone wrong - let the machine do it's worst whilst you keep safely back, and switch it off.
Think "feeding wild animal". If the meat drops off the end of the stick don't lean forwards to pick it up - that's when you most risk getting a nasty bite!


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2014)

No Jacob, I understand what you are saying only too well. I have never said anything about trying to outpace the machine. That is where you have misunderstood me. I am talking about human reaction time when it all goes **** up. Nor have I suggested trying to grab a piece of wood as the spindle moulder chews it up into matchsticks.

Shall we ask for this thread to be locked? We are going round and round in circles.


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2014)

RogerS":12hxzno5 said:


> No Jacob, I understand what you are saying only too well. I have never said anything about trying to outpace the machine. That is where you have misunderstood me. I am talking about human reaction time when it all goes **** up. Nor have I suggested trying to grab a piece of wood as the spindle moulder chews it up into matchsticks.
> 
> Shall we ask for this thread to be locked? We are going round and round in circles.





RogerS":12hxzno5 said:


> .........
> You also advocate a policy of 'hands-up' if something goes wrong. That scares the hell out of me. The human mind and body cannot react that swiftly to such a event. Have you never seen a kickback from a table saw? All the advice given by HS&E focusses on minimising risk and taking the human out of the equation as much as possible. Surely it is better to have good working practices such that one is not placed in the situation of *having to try to outpace a machine*?.....


Roger if you haven't anything useful or interesting to say it's often better to say nothing - just stop posting! Easy peasy.
Happy Christmas!

PS or if you don't get what I'm saying you could always PM me. I'd be quite happy to explain things more carefully and you wouldn't have to make such a . of yourself in public.


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2014)

Sorry Jacob..I could argue that you are deliberately misunderstanding me. The use of the phrase 'outpace the machine' in this context does not apply to trying to outpace, say, the feedrate of the machine. By 'outpace' I mean being able to respond to the machine throwing a bit of wood at you or grabbing the wood from you and chewing it up. I would have thought in the context of what was discussed that that would have been obvious to you.

I repeat....why don't we ask for the thread to be locked as we are going round and round and round in circles.


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2014)

RogerS":3spain73 said:


> Sorry Jacob..I could argue that you are deliberately misunderstanding me. The use of the phrase 'outpace the machine' in this context does not apply to trying to outpace, say, the feedrate of the machine. By 'outpace' I mean being able to respond to the machine throwing a bit of wood at you or grabbing the wood from you and chewing it up. I would have thought in the context of what was discussed that that would have been obvious to you.
> 
> I repeat....why don't we ask for the thread to be locked as we are going round and round and round in circles.


If you'd just stop posting incoherent and pointless nonsense the thread would come to a natural ending.


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2014)

Finished?


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## Random Orbital Bob (27 Dec 2014)

Boys.....I'm going to ban you both if you don't belt up. You should hear yourselves! Give us all a rest for goodness sake.


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2014)

It's OK, Bob. He's gone on Ignore and will remain there forever more. Yeah, I know I've said that before but this time it's for real.

Have a good New Year.


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## Random Orbital Bob (27 Dec 2014)

That's a good call Roger....Happy New year too


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