# Grinding Chisels & Plane irons



## Anonymous (27 Sep 2011)

I am 82 years old,served my apprenticeship in a Leeds firm that did mainly Bank work,I worked with a five star tradesman who taught me a lot of what I still know about the trade,however I read several forums on woodworking and to be frank I think the bunkum I read about "angles" for grinding is simply just that (bunkum)...I have never seen a tradesman in my whole working career that has had a set angle for grinding his chisels or Plane irons,they simply do it freehand and make sure they keep dipping it into cold water so as not to "burn" or soften tthe steel cutter,to be quite frank all this talk about "grinding angles" is enough to frighten a lot of would-be woodworkers, to be honest the angle hardly matters provided it isn't too steep. :roll: :roll: 

*JUST GET ON WITH IT FELLAS.*


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## woodbloke (27 Sep 2011)

What an interesting first post :roll: Usually newcomer's introduce themselves with friendly _'howdy', this is what I do, long time lurker_ etc etc and observe the pleasantries which we associate with this forum. Can't see the pics at the moment btw - Rob


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2011)

Wiljoy":33y8d0ia said:


> I am 82 years old,served my apprenticeship in a Leeds firm that did mainly Bank work,I worked with a five star tradesman who taught me a lot of what I still know about the trade,however I read several forums on woodworking and to be frank I think the bunkum I read about "angles" for grinding is simply just that (bunkum)...I have never seen a tradesman in my whole working career that has had a set angle for grinding his chisels or Plane irons,they simply do it freehand and make sure they keep dipping it into cold water so as not to "burn" or soften tthe steel cutter,to be quite frank all this talk about "grinding angles" is enough to frighten a lot of would-be woodworkers, to be honest the angle hardly matters provided it isn't too steep. :roll: :roll:
> 
> *JUST GET ON WITH IT FELLAS.*


:lol: Absolutely agree. Welcome aboard Wiljoy.

I take it you haven't got one of these then? http://www.fine-tools.com/G307971.htm
You could have _three gross bevel-angle range configurations: a high-angle range (25° to 54° in seven increments), a standard-angle range (15° to 40° in six increments), and a third range for back bevels._ for only £56! :shock: :lol: 
It also tells you the time in Tokyo, Sydney, Rio and Hartlepool, and works under water to 500m.
You'd need some new stones too, and you'd have to keep them perfectly flat or it wouldn't work too well - it's difficult enough as it is.


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## flounder (27 Sep 2011)

Jacob, you forgot the optional camber roller and the skew registration jig!


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## Tom K (27 Sep 2011)

Welcome to the forum Wiljoy. Are you Jacobs dad? Thanks for the pearl of wisdom you obviously thought long and hard before sharing.


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2011)

flounder":3qdwjin2 said:


> Jacob, you forgot the optional camber roller and the skew registration jig!


Optional? Very good of them - they could have made it compulsory! Not sure if I want to register my skew at my age.

I just had a peek at another page http://www.fine-tools.com/hilf.htm#ziel303540 for some sharpening "essentials"
My favourite is the Veritas Jointer Blade Sharpener. It's not very good; totally inferior to Steve Maskery's DIY jig posted up some time ago, but it has the most brass knobs per square inch. £60! :shock:


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## adidat (27 Sep 2011)

Tom K":16mqq3sh said:


> Welcome to the forum Wiljoy. Are you Jacobs dad?



:lol: :lol: 

thought the very same thing.

i think you have it the wrong way around wiljoy. by using a jig such as the fantastic veritas mk 2 a keen amateur can get a very sharp edge, sharper than free hand sharpening. 

adidat


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## bugbear (27 Sep 2011)

adidat":7lod0unk said:


> Tom K":7lod0unk said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to the forum Wiljoy. Are you Jacobs dad?
> ...



Nah. "Wiljoy" says grinding's easy, Grim says it always burns/softens the steel.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (27 Sep 2011)

Tom K":324togek said:


> Welcome to the forum Wiljoy. Are you Jacobs dad? Thanks for the pearl of wisdom you obviously thought long and hard before sharing.



Spawn of Grim more like..... :roll: 

Cripes...I can only manage one at any one time....

(homer) 

Mind you...I do have an axe to grind.... #-o 

Jim


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## markturner (27 Sep 2011)

This should be interesting.......

Personally, I think its all horses for courses, you work however it feels best for you and use whatever tools / methods fit you best. There is no "right" way........Plus, always be open to new suggestions, you never know, it may work for you!


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2011)

markturner":zkre4b2i said:


> ... There is no "right" way...........


Absolutely. 
So if you were a high class joiner doing bank work nobody would be surprised if you turned up in the morning with a wheelbarrow full of jigs, granite plates, plate glass, paving slabs, reams of emery paper, waterstones (in a pond :lol: ), a tormek, a worksharp, a little ruler etc (and that's just the short list!). Not to forget Pedder's 3 bricks of course.*

*PS can't remember what you do with the thee bricks, perhaps juggle while you sharpen a chisel between your knees?


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## powertools (27 Sep 2011)

If only Thomas Chippendale had a video on youtube about the tools he used and how he looked after them we would all learn so much.


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## Allylearm (27 Sep 2011)

I got a tormek at work, bloody good it is too. Do I still hand sharpen, yip when I need an edge as I do not carry a tormek about with me. I do not decry modern methods if they gave me a good result. I just like to keep my options open, I still do not see a need for me to buy a honing guide, yet.

Side note, I wonder how much furniture Chipendale made himself or was it some poor underpaid sod who had to live under his work bench.


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## bosshogg (27 Sep 2011)

Wiljoy":1bo77e14 said:


> I am 82 years old,served my apprenticeship in a Leeds firm that did mainly Bank work,I worked with a five star tradesman who taught me a lot of what I still know about the trade,however I read several forums on woodworking and to be frank I think the bunkum I read about "angles" for grinding is simply just that (bunkum)...I have never seen a tradesman in my whole working career that has had a set angle for grinding his chisels or Plane irons,they simply do it freehand and make sure they keep dipping it into cold water so as not to "burn" or soften tthe steel cutter,to be quite frank all this talk about "grinding angles" is enough to frighten a lot of would-be woodworkers, to be honest the angle hardly matters provided it isn't too steep. :roll: :roll:
> 
> *JUST GET ON WITH IT FELLAS.*



Plus 1 to that me old chocker...and welcome to the banter room...bosshogg


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## woodbloke (27 Sep 2011)

powertools":p65yn2df said:


> If only Thomas Chippendale had a video on youtube about the tools he used and how he looked after them we would all learn so much.


To be picci, which I usually am, Chippendale was a designer who produced the first book of furniture intended for the gentry of the 18c and _not_ a maker of the stuff (as far as we know) He had lesser minions to do the making stuff for him...but I know what you mean :wink: - Rob


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## powertools (27 Sep 2011)

woodbloke":25ftwle4 said:


> powertools":25ftwle4 said:
> 
> 
> > If only Thomas Chippendale had a video on youtube about the tools he used and how he looked after them we would all learn so much.
> ...



So your point is that minions in those days could produce high quality items with basic tools?


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## woodbrains (27 Sep 2011)

powertools":3swd0u5w said:


> If only Thomas Chippendale had a video on youtube about the tools he used and how he looked after them we would all learn so much.



Guess what, Thomas got his apprentices to do it! This is why we have labour saving devices to help us. 

Incidentally, you can only compare like with like. It is pointless saying you don't need that grinding jig or this honing guide without qualifying the statement by proving that the end result is the same. I know from experience that most people cannot sharpen their planes of chisels and just bury their heads by saying they didn't have those aids and jigs or fancy stones in the good old days. Well surprise surprise; they did. All joinery shops and cabinetmakers had large diameter sandstone wheels running in water baths, hand cranked or treadled, to grind their primary bevels (Tormek substitute). Hard and translucent Arkansas oilstones, washita, Belgian clay on shist, mica slate, Japanese waterstones etc have been quarried for centuries and used for sharpening to progressively fine grits to get razor sharp, polished edges. None of this is new. If you can do it freehand, then fine. but you mustbe able to say that it is just as sharp as doing it with the jigs, before you rail at people using them. You also need to understand why the jigs are available. Easy to say that they are aids for the unskilled, because Thomas Chippendale got by without. Could it be we are missing something crucial when we perpetuate these old chestnuts. Well consider this. Did honing guides appear on the scene at about the same time plane irons became considerably thinner and less easy to balance on the stones? Goddam right. If Chippendale used the Baily style planes we have now, he would be finding ways of jigging up to make honing easier (or at least his apprentices would). So you can't call on the traditions of history as some sort of datum of truth, unless all things are equal and they certainly are not. The only bunkum I have heard lately is someone banging on about honing; rounding under not over, or some such TRIPE. A rounded edge is to be avoided at all costs however you fool yourself into thinking about it. A sharp edge is the intersection ot 2 planes with the smallest transition as possible. This is, in effect, a tiny radius, which is made smaller with the finer grits being used when honing. If the bevel is just some arbitary round over there is no transition between the intersecting planes and it is not possible to hone the sharpest possible edge, it just becomes some mushy volute or something with an indistinct edge. If I remember correctly, the perpetrator of this nonsense actually changed the laws of physics to try and prove his point by suggesting that a curve is actually the shortest distance between two points, so doesn't require any more effort in honing than a straight line. Amazing! I knew an old timer once who used to freehand hone his tools with an oilstone as dished out as a sandstone front doorstep and then strop the wire edge away with the leathery palm of his hand. It brought a warmth to the cockles of the heart to see such time honoured skill and wonderful simplicty. His tools were bloody dull, too.

Mike.


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2011)

powertools":2pp3wxiq said:


> woodbloke":2pp3wxiq said:
> 
> 
> > powertools":2pp3wxiq said:
> ...


Well yes they would have been organised like any other craft business with work being delegated etc. 
Chippo himself was a maker. He'd have to be - you are handicapped as a designer if you can't make.
Interesting that he, Sheraton, Hepplewhite, Macintosh were all from oop narth, contradicting the popular view that design advanced in the cities and diffused out to the provinces. The opposite is true. They went citywards for the money and brought modern design with them


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2011)

woodbrains":10y227su said:


> ..........If the bevel is just some arbitary round over there is no transition between the intersecting planes and it is not possible to hone the sharpest possible edge, it just becomes some mushy volute or something with an indistinct edge. If I remember correctly, the perpetrator of this nonsense actually changed the laws of physics to try and prove his point by suggesting that a curve is actually the shortest distance between two points, so doesn't require any more effort in honing than a straight line. Amazing! ......


There is a thing called a tangent. You can have a precise 30º (or any other angle) tangential edge even if the bevel is curved. AOTBE this will be no different from a straight bevel (at the edge) and will cut just as well. Many people don't understand this I realise. Still true though. Nothing wrong with flat bevel BTW its just that rounded is easier if you are freehanding on a stone.

PS This might help (though I doubt it :roll: ). 
We all know that rounding over increases the edge angle, which we all agree is OK up to a point, but eventually will need correcting. Agree?
So suppose your edge started at 25º and you round it over until it is 30º. Think about it.
PPS


> ..you rail at people using them...


No it's the other way round. If freehand gets mentioned there is always a hostile blast from the usual suspects. I think it's changing though, but gradually.


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## xy mosian (27 Sep 2011)

Anyone who has handled plane irons and chisels for a while will get a feel for bevel angles. This will mean they can be formed, without jigs, by sight. But for a complete novice this can be difficult, especially if faced with a second hand blade which may have seen better days. 

In an attempt to help those new to this craft. When the ground bevel length is 2.5 times the thickness of the of the blade at the thick end of the bevel, the angle is very nearly 24 degrees. Which for most purposes is near enough! 

xy


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## woodbrains (27 Sep 2011)

Hello Jacob,

Like I said, I've nothing against freehand sharpening, only about people who fool themselves into thinking they are actually getting the same level of sharpness as those who use guides because that is what gets them the sharpness they require. Let us face it, I happen to remember from previous threads that some actually think they are getting ultimate sharpness by honing on a Norton Fine India stone and then tell others who might want to use a honing jig that they are wasting their time and money. These people are not arguing the same debate, because they are NOT sharpening. If they want to comment on a thread entitled 'how to make your tools dull, and just acceptable enough to cut at a push' then they can sing away till their hearts content, but cannot comment when people who genuinely want to better their skills and tools and find out how to truly sharpen. Even stropping after a fine India won't do it because the jump in grit size between the stone and the stopping paste is too big a leap. You will just polish the scratches. A stone that removes noticable amounts of steel is not fine enough for sharpening.

Yes there is such a thing as a tangent, but why not just hone the tangent and not the arc. You will remove less metal 'cause a curve is longer than the tangent between the two points. Or is that because you actually find it hard to hone a flat freehand? Try a guide, they work wonders! Not even the gravity of your argument is strong enough to cause a curve to become the shortest distance between two points--a bit of Einsteinium physics for you there.

Chippendale went bankrupt at least twice and died relatively poor, if history serves. As good as his furniture was, let us not confuse what is collectable and financially lucrative now a days with arguments as to what is the best work and therefore the way we should do things. Fine furniture these days is made to much closer tolerances than Chippendale was used to of could even hope to acheive and out of less compliant materials. We are not comparing apples to apples and should not try. Lie Nielsen technicians use scary sharp to sharpen their blades and finish off with a Japanese waterstone And use a Veritas honing guide. David Charlesworth uses waterstones and guides. The late Jim Kingshott actually designed and marketed honing guides for a while and certainly recommended them. These are peple who make fine tools, teach the best work and make reproduction Chippendale etc. furniture. They have a point.

Mike.


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## Alf (27 Sep 2011)

(Didn't have a "Do Not Feed The Troll You Silly Sods" smilie handy, unfortunately. My bad.)


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## woodbrains (27 Sep 2011)

Hi.

Compared to me, trolls are lightweights. And I don't like popcorn, either.

Mike.


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## woodbloke (27 Sep 2011)

powertools":1wp24vnx said:


> woodbloke":1wp24vnx said:
> 
> 
> > powertools":1wp24vnx said:
> ...


No, merely that TC wasn't a cabinet maker (or at least not that we know of) though I gather it's been a bit of a 'Holy Grail' quest to find something that he actually made, if at all
Edit - I stand corrected after seeing Jacob's Wiki link thingie. I should say that he's best remembered as the originator of the first furniture design book, with others following on later - Rob


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2011)

woodbrains":3jaswnl4 said:


> ......
> 
> Yes there is such a thing as a tangent, but why not just hone the tangent and not the arc.


Well of course you do both. Including the arc (if you want to) because in the process you are backing off the bevel a touch and making it easier - with small or thin blades this saves any grinding.


> You will remove less metal 'cause a curve is longer than the tangent between the two points.


Wrong.
If you are repeating the bevel, for every mm you take off the face (flat side), arc or tangent or any other shaped bevel takes off the same amount of metal, in point of fact. It's just geometry - to do with the area of a parallelogram or volume of a prism. Nothing to do with distance between points. You just need to think about it a bit more and do a bit of geometry revision. Hint - it's not the length/area of the surface it's the volume of the removed metal which counts.
I know I keep going on about it but this sort of simple misunderstanding does seem to dog these discussions to nobodies advantage. Just do a bit of geometry revision - you'll get there in the end (perhaps). It's about _repeating the bevel_ - each mm off the face means taking off the same amount of metal whatever the shape of the bevel - as long as you are _repeating_ it.
Have a go at a drawing. If you don't get it yourself, I'll do one.



To put it another way - if you trimmed the end of a chisel in 1mm cuts at 90º, or in 1mm cuts at 45º, you would remove the same amount of metal either way. 10 cuts takes you 10mm up the chisel, whatever the shape you are repeating, even if curved or covered in finely detailed erotic carvings, as long as you repeat them.


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## LuptonM (27 Sep 2011)

How sharp is sharp? Maybe we should discuss this as a newbie like myself doesn't have a taste of a professionally sharpened blade


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2011)

xy mosian":301zq764 said:


> Anyone who has handled plane irons and chisels for a while will get a feel for bevel angles. This will mean they can be formed, without jigs, by sight. But for a complete novice this can be difficult, .....


Many simple things are difficult for a novice, we all know that and have experienced it. 
Tilting a chisel at about 30º isn't one of them however. Any fool can do it, if necessary with a bit of visual aid such as a 30/60 set square. I'm continually astonished that so many otherwise competent people have convinced themselves that this ridiculously simple little task is in any way difficult. Beyond belief! 
NB you look at the chisel, not the bevel.


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## adidat (27 Sep 2011)

LuptonM":2ektljay said:


> How sharp is sharp? Maybe we should discuss this as a newbie like myself doesn't have a taste of a professionally sharpened blade



usually stated if it can shave hairs of your arm its bleddy sharp

adidat


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## bosshogg (27 Sep 2011)

Jesus, and I thought I was having a bad day...sheeesht 


> "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." - Mario Andretti.


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## Tom K (27 Sep 2011)

bosshogg":3cdi5xqv said:


> Jesus, and I thought I was having a bad day...sheeesht
> 
> 
> > "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." - Mario Andretti.



(homer) ? (homer)


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## adidat (27 Sep 2011)

Tom K":15gf5j75 said:


> bosshogg":15gf5j75 said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus, and I thought I was having a bad day...sheeesht
> ...




your not the only one then :lol:

adidat


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## woodbrains (28 Sep 2011)

Jacob":26yht1cm said:


> woodbrains":26yht1cm said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



Jacob, what the b'jesus has the surface area of a prism or a parallelogram got to do with it. If you hone an arc, then the width of the unfolded arc multipled be the width of the blade is the surface area. ( the surface area of a portion of a cylinder if you like. If you don't hone an arc of a circle but more eliptically it will be wider still) A chord of that same arc is a shorter distance, multiplied by the same blade width is a smaller surface area. Multiply this by the thickness of the metal removed gives us the volume. Which is greater for an arc, than a straight line. You have not even an understanding of basic high school geometry and you are actually trying to prove something by talking nonesense. And still your stones are not fine enough to hone a blade in any case. Can it for god's sake and let those who know how to do it and those of us who want to know how have an adult conversation. I get more sense out of the kids in my D and T class in school.

Mike.


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

woodbrains":18ikznjp said:


> ...... If you hone an arc, then the width of the unfolded arc multipled be the width of the blade is the surface area. (....... Multiply this by the thickness of the metal removed gives us the volume. Which is greater for an arc, than a straight line. .......


Wrong. 
You are getting there though. Forget arcs for the moment - think of the volume of metal removed per mm of face, for different bevel angles.


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## GazPal (28 Sep 2011)

Unless the surface area of the whetted surface amounts to serious yardage, the entire theory surrounding whether or not it takes more work to whet a flat or curved surface is a serious waste of drinking time. We're talking millimetres and fractions of millimetres on surfaces being dealt with during the honing process. :roll: 

Who cares? :lol: As long as the edge being whetted is capable of serving it's intended purpose and holding a useable cutting edge it matters not how one produces such an edge. Move ahead with progressively finer grits, but you reach a point of deminishing returns once you pass 4K grit, whilst most planed surfaces are more than presentable enough if an edge is polished/whetted to approx 2K grit. This tends to produce a far finer surface than that produced using typical sanding grades of paper prior to finishing and begs the question as to whether or not it's totally necessary for all of the resulting angst surrounding progressively finer grits and whetting angles.


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## Tom K (28 Sep 2011)

So Jacobs method (I'm sure he will correct me) is as follows


This of course stops you from dubbing over at the expense of taking the cutting edge off of the medium reducing the amount of sharpening being done. I personally like a flat bevel for registration and repeatability.


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## adidat (28 Sep 2011)

adidat


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

Tom K":vcdsdrde said:


> So Jacobs method (I'm sure he will correct me) is as follows This of course stops you from dubbing over at the expense of taking the cutting edge off of the medium reducing the amount of sharpening being done.


Looks OK :lol: 
It's simpler than everybody seems to think. If you aim to round _under_ by going 1-2-3 as above you will maintain the angle at 1 with no risk of rounding _over_ This may produce a rounded bevel as at 4 but it may not be very round if you just dip a bit.
There's no "expense" involved once you are repeating the same (rounded or flat) bevel, as the amount of metal removed removed is the same (for each mm of face/flat removed).
No "registration" of course but still repeatable - you just do it the same way every time and hold the chisel at 30º ish to start with.
Maybe I'm bad at explaining things. Sorry about that!


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## Tom K (28 Sep 2011)

Good now I know how to do it can I just sharpen my own way? :lol:


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

Tom K":1fuddw46 said:


> Good now I know how to do it can I just sharpen my own way? :lol:


Please, feel free! :lol: 
It's worth having a bash at my way though, as it is quick and easy. 
But please don't strain or upset yourself anybody, I know new ideas can cause a lot of anxiety.
Anyway I'm going back to bed. I only got up for a pineapple.


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## Doug B (28 Sep 2011)

Jacob":42qgvxps said:


> Anyway I'm going back to bed. I only got up for a pineapple.




I find an orange aids sleep on a restless night, never though of trying a pineapple.


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## Corneel (28 Sep 2011)

But checking sharpening threads in the middle of the night usually isn't very helpfull to get sleepy again.
Or, on second thought, maybe it is...


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## bugbear (28 Sep 2011)

Alf":2h4i0nth said:


> (Didn't have a "Do Not Feed The Troll You Silly Sods" smilie handy, unfortunately. My bad.)



Bit big, but here ya' go:






BugBear


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## bugbear (28 Sep 2011)

GazPal":3r9az3p3 said:


> Unless the surface area of the whetted surface amounts to serious yardage, the entire theory surrounding whether or not it takes more work to whet a flat or curved surface is a serious waste of drinking time. We're talking millimetres and fractions of millimetres on surfaces being dealt with during the honing process. :roll:



For such a practical man, Jacob does raise tiny details, and over detailed analysis.

BugBear


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

bugbear":2jbtisxx said:


> GazPal":2jbtisxx said:
> 
> 
> > Unless the surface area of the whetted surface amounts to serious yardage, the entire theory surrounding whether or not it takes more work to whet a flat or curved surface is a serious waste of drinking time. We're talking millimetres and fractions of millimetres on surfaces being dealt with during the honing process. :roll:
> ...


This issue of more or less metal seems to bother people so I suppose it has to explained.* I hope woodbrain has cracked it, after a good nights sleep. :lol: If not I'll attempt a drawing later.**
Another "important" issue which holds people back is the notion that holding a chisel at approx 30º is extremely difficult. I'm amazed by this and interested to know how it came to be accepted. Some form of mass hysteria?
It's far easier than tying shoelaces or sharpening a pencil - we all routinely do far more difficult things every day.
A visual aid might help if you have never done it before, but the reason for the popularity of 30º is less to do with critical sharpening angles and more to do with 30º being easy to visualise, as it is a "natural" angle, along with 90, 45 and 60º. Then if you can hit one of these approximately you can then go a bit above or below for your micro-bevels, or whatever else turns you on.

Too much thinking can make things seem difficult. As Wiljoy said at the beginning, perhaps JUST GET ON WITH IT ?

*PS To put it another way - people talk themselves into technical holes, you have to be a bit technical to help them to get out. :roll: 
**PPS this might help woodbrain; look for "volume of oblique prism", or ask one of your kids.


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## Paul Chapman (28 Sep 2011)

Give it a rest, Jacob. This has gone far beyond tedious.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (28 Sep 2011)

bugbear":3bf8e1i5 said:


> Alf":3bf8e1i5 said:
> 
> 
> > (Didn't have a "Do Not Feed The Troll You Silly Sods" smilie handy, unfortunately. My bad.)
> ...


Agreed BB


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

Every time this topic comes up there is this huge, concerted and hostile effort from the opposition, to stifle it and stop it dead. The opposition isn't that substantial - the two previous posters and a few others. That's it.
We should just ignore them. 
If they don't like the topic then why don't they stay away from the discussion? They have nothing interesting or useful to say after all.
Not only that but they are also aggressive, sarcastic, and offensive. Poor woodbloke contrives to call me a pig in every single post he makes! Infantile. Isn't it against the rules?
I accept that they don't understand these things and can't do them, but that doesn't mean they should decry them at every opportunity.


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## bugbear (28 Sep 2011)

Jacob":t6a2tm8b said:


> I accept that they don't understand these things and can't do them, but that doesn't mean they should decry them at every opportunity.



I understand and can do your method, Jacob. There's not much to it.

I happen to think it's inferiouor to some other methods, hence your method should not be dogmatically spouted as "the answer". Beginners might believe you.

You've argued loud and long for diverse opinions to be respected, so you presumably respect mine.

I note with amusement your idea of promoting discussion is for people with opinions other than your own to cease posting.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (28 Sep 2011)

My views and others are well known on this subject and happen to coincide with BB's, but this is a purile, infantile 'discussion' 8) which I want no part of. I'm certainly not going to get involved in any further pig wrestling. If any newcomers out there are perplexed by this continual on-going tirade, I suggest you visit somewhere - Rob


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## adidat (28 Sep 2011)

its strange wiljoy hasnt been back to check his thread. starting to think maybe grimsdale has made a second account just to have someone to egg him on :-k :-k 

adidat


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

bugbear":346ld09c said:


> ....
> 
> I understand and can do your method, Jacob.


Well done. It's not so long ago you were telling us all it was impossible


> There's not much to it.


True. That's the point.


> I happen to think it's inferiouor to some other methods,


Bound to be. It's about woodwork, not shaving or surgery!


> hence your method should not be dogmatically spouted as "the answer". Beginners might believe you.


I think it could help some of those who struggle with the crazy sharpening paraphernalia and multiple techniques. Beginners should believe me - it's the trad method for beginners and still the best IMHO. One double sided oil stone and that's it until you have the hang of it


> You've argued loud and long for diverse opinions to be respected, so you presumably respect mine....


Opinions yes, the trolling and sarcasm no.


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

adidat":21d4d8z9 said:


> its strange wiljoy hasnt been back to check his thread. starting to think maybe grimsdale has made a second account just to have someone to egg him on :-k :-k
> 
> adidat


I had me doubts but he sounds like the real thing and definitely isn't one of my many alias's as far as I recall, unless they can acquire a life of their own. :shock:


woodbloke":21d4d8z9 said:


> ... I'm certainly not going to get involved in any further pig wrestling. ...


Glad to hear it Rob, you should know by now you can't win! 
I thought you were off somewhere on the 14th. What brought you back?



> I strongly suggest you visit somewhere else where ..... discussions are in fact, discussions and are remarkably civilized...unlike this one


I see they locked your first thread Rob. :lol: :lol: 
Very civilised of them, thank you Gill.


----------



## woodbloke (28 Sep 2011)

Jacob":2hgo7gcb said:


> I had me doubts but he sounds like the real thing and definitely isn't one of my many alias's as far as I recall, unless they can acquire a life of their own. :shock:



If you have more than one account hereabouts on UKWorkshop, that definitely *is* against the rules. PM sent to the mods

_(3.) Multiple Accounts
Each member is allowed one login account. Registering with multiple accounts is not allowed._ - Rob


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## LuptonM (28 Sep 2011)

Jacob I think even the oldies would have gone further than a fine india stone. Ie Arkansas stones and Jewelers Rouge. Though before india stones it would have been natural stones which can be very fine - natural Japanese stones can be as fine as 30k

If you don't keep your stones flat how do u lap the backs?


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## studders (28 Sep 2011)

To be fair... I recently have been sharpening freehand using just India stones and then stropping on a bit of leather, with acceptable, if not 'surgical' results. Not as sharp as when I use the 3M film but sharp enough for the jobs I was doing.


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

LuptonM":2xz19k1g said:


> Jacob I think even the oldies would have gone further than a fine india stone. Ie Arkansas stones and Jewelers Rouge. ....


Well yes of course - eventually. Not sure about the rouge though - isn't that a bit OTT and un-traditional or a bit specialist? I don't know. 
But a double sided stone will see most woodworkers through the first few years at least. I've gradually acquired a collection myself but mostly in a spirit of enquiry. Most are redundant.


> If you don't keep your stones flat how do u lap the backs?


I do keep them flat enough, by spreading the workload, in a way that is described over and over again in the books, but which seems to have fallen out of fashion.


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

woodbloke":3lfdyezy said:


> ......against the rules. PM sent to the mods......


Ooh, you sneak you! :lol: :lol: :lol: Just you wait til we are in the playground! :evil:
And calling me a pig behind my back! I'm going to pull your plaits Roberta you spotty cow jus u wochit! :lol: :lol:


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## andy king (28 Sep 2011)

Jacob":38faejtp said:


> Beginners should believe me - it's the trad method for beginners and still the best IMHO.


If you are referring to your 'crazy round under' method of sharpening... Nonsense!
This is more and more like a Monty Python sketch every time you try and justify it.
'My theory, which is mine, that belongs to me...'
:lol: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYDiPizDIs


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2011)

andy king":3i9ljzmm said:


> Jacob":3i9ljzmm said:
> 
> 
> > Beginners should believe me - it's the trad method for beginners and still the best IMHO.
> ...


I'm referring to the double sided stone.
If people want to try "the dip" then they should do it at home behind closed doors. Don't want to frighten people!


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## bugbear (29 Sep 2011)

Jacob":2ljpu2ly said:


> bugbear":2ljpu2ly said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



I've pointed out the limitations and difficulties. I would welcome a cite of an occasion when I've said _impossible._

Otherwise I'll assume this is one of your deliberate misquotes; your rhetoric is about as honest as you are sincere.

BugBear


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## CHJ (29 Sep 2011)

For the Record:

If you check the Profile for: *Wiljoy*

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:26 am 

Posts: One (1)

Last visited: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:33 am 

And observed his Avatar:






You may come to the conclusion, one which I can confirm, that the individual registered from Adelaide South Australia.
A google of his user name no doubt will show the other forums he is a member of, (Hint)

I suggest that he has either achieved his purpose or is pulling even more of his hair out after following the results of his post.

Caution should always be applied when putting 2 and 2 together that an erroneous answer of 5 is not the result.

For those that are not happy with the input from a particular member, what is wrong with the "*Ignore function*" built into the forum. I know this will not stop quotes from displaying but at least it will avoid you having to read a view or opinion you do not subscribe to in the first instance.


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## Paul Chapman (29 Sep 2011)

CHJ":3o038d8l said:


> For those that are not happy with the input from a particular member, what is wrong with the "*Ignore function*" built into the forum.



Unfortunately, Chas, it's only a partial solution. It does nothing to stop the frequent trolling on certain threads, which stifles debate and has, imo, put off a lot of valuable contributors from posting.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## CHJ (29 Sep 2011)

Paul Chapman":2tfbg466 said:


> Unfortunately, Chas, it's only a partial solution. It does nothing to stop the frequent trolling on certain threads, which stifles debate and has, imo, put off a lot of valuable contributors from posting.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



I fully understand Paul and personally do get frustrated at the childish bickering and come-backs, but with my Mod hat on I have to read (I don’t get an option to ignore) all of a thread and although I perceive behavior much like a Terrier we had, who always had to have the last yap, putting the animal to sleep was hardly appropriate, and threads taken on a whole often have two sides that are very similarly balanced in regards to the overall antagonistic response count if read from the beginning.


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## Paul Chapman (29 Sep 2011)

Yes, you have a very difficult job, Chas. Your efforts are much appreciated.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (29 Sep 2011)

CHJ":13wrn2m6 said:


> ... and threads taken on a whole often have two sides that are very similarly balanced in regards to the overall antagonistic response count if read from the beginning.


That's true, but when one side refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of the other's arguement (in any thread, not just in this one)...this is when the antagonism escalates to boiling point with the constant 'needling' :evil: I'm quite happy to acknowledge when I'm in the wrong or my views are seen as _'off piste'_ but it needs to be a two way process - Rob


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## gus3049 (10 Oct 2011)

I have come very late to this thread and have read it right through with great interest.

My wife's niece has adopted a young girl and it appears that she has 'anger management issues'. When I were a boy we would have said she was an aggressive little b.gger. (hammer) 

It seem quite a few have escaped the net of the luvvies who try and fix our personality problems.

However, when I was at college (musical instrument making) I was taught to hone my chisels by hand and still do it as it is quick, easy once you get the hang of it and I challenge anyone to get a better edge once the cutting bevel is put on with the water stone. I do, though, have a jig. I use it for certain chisels that are too big or rather heavy for ease with the hand.

Both methods have their place and I cannot see it matters how any result is achieved if it works for you (subject to the usual safety issues of course)


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## Racers (10 Oct 2011)

Hi, 

My son has dyspraxia my wife has a benign tremor in her right hand, both will find freehand sharpening nearly impossible.
There must be other conditions that make tasks that able bodied people consider easy very difficult.


Pete


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## clk230 (10 Oct 2011)

Pete , your quite right BUT trying to bring disabilities into this sort of disscussion is wrong in my view .


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## Paul Chapman (10 Oct 2011)

clk230":2rzoku1w said:


> Pete , your quite right BUT trying to bring disabilities into this sort of disscussion is wrong in my view .




Why :? Disabled people need to sharpen their tools as well.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Racers (10 Oct 2011)

Hi, clk230

I am just pointing out that not every body can freehand shapen, which some people fail to understand.

Are you saying woodworking is only for the able bodied?

Pete


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## jimi43 (10 Oct 2011)

Paul Chapman":oiuc9mn5 said:


> clk230":oiuc9mn5 said:
> 
> 
> > Pete , your quite right BUT trying to bring disabilities into this sort of disscussion is wrong in my view .
> ...



Absolutely! The nature of the disabilities relates to whether the persons concerned are able to hone freehand....and it is totally relevant to bring this up.

Jim


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## clk230 (10 Oct 2011)

please don't take my comment out of context , i did say i agree with Pete ,but the problem with bringing disabilities into any discussion is that every disability is different and may require a different approach to most every day to day tasks , you could use it in every single thing were someone uses the words ' easy or simple etc' .

AND no i am not saying only able bodied people should do woodwork as long as its carried out safely ,if you knew me you wouldn't even make that comment.


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## dunbarhamlin (10 Oct 2011)

Watch Larry Williams' moulding plane vids - tremors are no bar to freehand sharpening, just an excuse not to try. 
I intermittently have severe tremors, which can make tying shoelaces, drinking tea or typing rather frustrating (just not going to happen lol) - but still freehand sharpen (I wouldn't however wield a chisel in anger when they're bad - red isn't my favourite colour  )

Edit: I consider my tremors a handicap - _not_ a disabilty - they set the fences a little high, but don't stop me trying.


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## bosshogg (10 Oct 2011)

gus3049":p7j4x3xo said:


> I have come very late to this thread and have read it right through with great interest.
> 
> My wife's niece has adopted a young girl and it appears that she has 'anger management issues'. When I were a boy we would have said she was an aggressive little b.gger. (hammer)
> 
> ...



+1 to that...bosshogg


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## Fromey (11 Oct 2011)

Well Mr Wiljoy, 81 from Adelaide SA (my home town by the way). Doctors in your youth used to recommend smoking as good for your health. You can pick any of millions of other examples where the past got it wrong. The argument is one of the Sophist's oldest tricks. State some premises that are true (people used to freehand sharpen) and extrapolate that to a logical argument (there is no need for anything else other than freehand sharpening). Any book on critical thinking will show you the error of this. Politicians are experts in its use.

As to the 5 pages of banter after the original post, you've gotta love the Internet.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

Fromey":77yeloix said:


> Well Mr Wiljoy, 81 from Adelaide SA (my home town by the way). Doctors in your youth used to recommend smoking as good for your health. You can pick any of millions of other examples where the past got it wrong. The argument is one of the Sophist's oldest tricks. State some premises that are true (people used to freehand sharpen) and extrapolate that to a logical argument (there is no need for anything else other than freehand sharpening). Any book on critical thinking will show you the error of this. Politicians are experts in its use.
> 
> As to the 5 pages of banter after the original post, you've gotta love the Internet.


Somewhat unsophisticated sophistry here. :roll: 
A book on critical thinking _might_ show you the error of this, if you were able to understand it!
Have a look in your book anyway - there will probably be a technical term for attacking someone's case by first misrepresenting it.

Nobody is saying there is no need for anything else other than freehand sharpening. 
What many are saying is that it is extremely useful and more people should try it before giving up pathetically. This isn't an "extrapolation"; it's tried and tested by many people every day.


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Fromey":1xzvnvvo said:


> Well Mr Wiljoy, 81 from Adelaide SA (my home town by the way). Doctors in your youth used to recommend smoking as good for your health. You can pick any of millions of other examples where the past got it wrong. The argument is one of the Sophist's oldest tricks. State some premises that are true (people used to freehand sharpen) and extrapolate that to a logical argument (there is no need for anything else other than freehand sharpening). Any book on critical thinking will show you the error of this. Politicians are experts in its use.
> 
> As to the 5 pages of banter after the original post, you've gotta love the Internet.




Critique of a persons perspective on honing due to age? Puzzling, as well as disrespectful, but I very much doubt your reaction would be the same if said person were a published author on sharpening technique. One point you made was particularly incorrect. This being "*People used to freehand sharpen*". 

Although I agree with the use of honing guides, many more craftsmen are trained to freehand HONE or whet their irons and blades, as this is the quickest means toward achieving desired end results, than those who utilise honing guides. This point sadly appears to lack acknowledgement by many here. One fundamental aspect in learning a craft is mastery of tool maintenance and sharpening, for without keen edges we cannot produce flowing work or aim to achieve high end results safely. 

Far more focus should be spent upon this aspect, rather than arguing whether or not the use of honing guides or freehand is best, although learning how to freehand whet an edge is a skill one will never lose or forget to place in ones toolbox when going on site. :wink: Learning to trust hand : eye co-ordination is a skill one never loses and one means of aquiring such skill is to freehand one edge in every three whetted. Skill is soon aquired in accurately whetting an edge and you're then more than capable of working with or without guides.

In terms of addressing whether or not someone suffers a debilitating condition preventing the adoption of freehand sharpening skills, levels of ability vary from person to person and they're just as free to choose their technique/methods as the next man/woman. I suffer from severe rheumatoid arthritis which led to premature retirement from the trade through joint deformity in the fingers of both hands, yet I prefer freehand over guided honing. This is because it would prove more difficult for me to set an iron/blade into a guide than work freehand.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

I hesitate to join the discussion abt disability but I would expect freehand to be easier for someone with a problem. It's more relaxed and you can alter your hand positions.


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Jacob":2cmw4w4m said:


> I hesitate to join the discussion abt disability but I would expect freehand to be easier for someone with a problem. It's more relaxed and you can alter your hand positions.



Hi Jacob,

I'd honestly not hesitate in discussing disability whenever the subject is relevant, because woodworking is not exclusive to the able bodied. 

Yes, honing jigs can limit ones facility to adjust grip during use, but I'd not exclude them from use unless problems were encountered. 

Hand problems such as the ones I suffer make working as comfortably as possible an absolute necessity. No matter which method of honing is adopted, the best means is the one a person finds most comfortable and is at most ease using. A little experimentation regarding methods is possibly the best route forward until one finds one best suiting ones given circumstances.

--------------

I cannot whet an edge using a jig any quicker or more comfortably than I can freehand one. Partly because my hands cramp, but primarily because my hands have no screws or angle gauges to faff around with and I'm at a stage where I can hone an edge without putting much - if any - thought into it. How? Practise. :wink: It shouldn't and doesn't take long for an individual to learn freehand honing, but you do need to be willing to practise and learn from mistakes. During my apprentice days I used to practise honing during my spare time, watching tv mostly, until it became second nature. It's all part of becoming familiar around the tools with which you work, learning how they work best, but something seldom find written in text books surrounding mastery of a given craft, but proves to be valuable time spent aquiring/enhancing skills.

Perhaps I'm old school, but one thing that was drilled into us apprentices during our early days was for us not to rely upon jigs and machinery to do the work for us. This was in spite of having others more qualified than ourselves using machinery to carry out the various tasks we were given to carry out with hand tools. We learned the basics without reliance upon aids, with the principle reason being the fact we'd be unable to function properly if a jig were damaged/lost or a piece of machinery broke down leaving us no option but to use hand tools. An entire workshop would be at risk of being drawn to a stand still if a moulding machine broke down and we were unable to fall back on using our hand tooling skills. The same can be said if one comes to rely too heavily upon sharpening aids and one is unable to work freehand.

---------------


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

GazPal":2pasdldt said:


> ........ one thing that was drilled into us apprentices during our early days was for us not to rely upon jigs and machinery to do the work for us. This was in spite of having others more qualified than ourselves using machinery to carry out the various tasks we were given to carry out with hand tools. We learned the basics without reliance upon aids, .....
> ---------------


Same for me (though I was never an apprentice). The big road to Damascus revelation was how much could be done with so little.
I admire the green woodwork brigade - now doing it with even less!


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Jacob":lxu44gnu said:


> GazPal":lxu44gnu said:
> 
> 
> > ........ one thing that was drilled into us apprentices during our early days was for us not to rely upon jigs and machinery to do the work for us. This was in spite of having others more qualified than ourselves using machinery to carry out the various tasks we were given to carry out with hand tools. We learned the basics without reliance upon aids, .....
> ...




Getting back to basics, it basically boils down to starting with a basic kit of tools and adding bits and pieces to make life easier on site or in the workshop. We used to have an skillful old timer working with us back in the 70's who could shave and hang a door using an adze, firmer chisel and screwdriver (Not a lie nielsen/veritas plane in sight) .......... His work was just as skillfully and well executed as any one of us could manage working from our full joinery boxes and chests and he highlighted the fact that habitual practise makes for near perfect craftsmanship. It's just a case of how far the individual wishes to extend himself and practise his skills.

We worked alongside some green woodworkers a few years back and it was fascinating watching them work with minimal tooling. The McGyvers of the woodwoorking world.


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## Racers (11 Oct 2011)

Hi, Gary

I keep pointing out that hobby woodworkers don't get enough time to fully develop there skils, so short cuts like honing guides do have a place. 


Pete


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

Racers":3h1llwbf said:


> Hi, Gary
> 
> I keep pointing out that hobby woodworkers don't get enough time to fully develop there skils, so short cuts like honing guides do have a place.
> 
> ...


The above is a non sequitur. If you don't have time to develop skills then freehand is easier to learn, and saves time. Honing guides aren't short cuts, they just make it more difficult!
We were hobbyists or beginners once. We can remember what it was like. 
It's up to you who you listen to - experienced woodworkers (who once were beginners themselves) giving free advice, or salesmen, often with no woodwork skills at all, selling gadgets, DVDs etc.


----------



## Anonymous (11 Oct 2011)




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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Racers":2qtpvc6v said:


> Hi, Gary
> 
> I keep pointing out that hobby woodworkers don't get enough time to fully develop there skils, so short cuts like honing guides do have a place.
> 
> ...




Hi Pete,

I've never said jigs don't have their place, or shouldn't be used. I agree with the use of guides and jigs, but if they treat them as a temporary measure it is perfectly reasonable for a hobby worker to polish up his/her sharpening skill sets if desired. Jigs are marvellous things, but can prove to be a form of crutch (Not in a detrimental way) if solely relied upon in order to achieve a goal that's reachable with a little practise.


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## Racers (11 Oct 2011)

Hi, Gary

But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.

Pete


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## bugbear (11 Oct 2011)

Jacob":3g5z0id7 said:


> It's up to you who you listen to - experienced woodworkers (who once were beginners themselves) giving free advice, or salesmen, often with no
> woodwork skills at all, selling gadgets, DVDs etc.



Bit of a false dichotomy there.

Lecturers and teachers would seem good people to seek instruction from.

BugBear


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

Racers":jdxbt7ck said:



> Hi, Gary
> 
> But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.
> 
> Pete


Freehand honing is quicker. *Otherwise it'd be completely bloody pointless!!!* 
It will save you hours. A little and often. Not unlike sharpening a pencil (not quite as easy). It'll pay off from the beginning. Or after an hour or so to get you started.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

bugbear":1wzyv4zr said:


> Jacob":1wzyv4zr said:
> 
> 
> > It's up to you who you listen to - experienced woodworkers (who once were beginners themselves) giving free advice, or salesmen, often with no
> ...


Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. :lol: 
So only if they are experienced woodworkers too and aren't trying to sell you something. Here's the first one that sprang to mind.


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## DTR (11 Oct 2011)

Racers":1x5nqal2 said:


> hobby woodworkers don't get enough time to fully develop there skils, so short cuts like honing guides do have a place.





Jacob":1x5nqal2 said:


> If you don't have time to develop skills then freehand is easier to learn, and saves time.





Racers":1x5nqal2 said:


> if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone





Jacob":1x5nqal2 said:


> Freehand honing is quicker. Otherwise it'd be completely bloody pointless!!!




Does anyone ever wonder how much time has been wasted by discussing it on an internet forum? (hammer)


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## gus3049 (11 Oct 2011)

Jacob":is4c86w3 said:


> But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.



One gets the impression that Jacob may have been a terrier of some kind in a previous existence. I bet that bone had some deep teeth marks in it :lol:


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## Corneel (11 Oct 2011)

Until now I've been a real sharpening jig lover. The Eclipse is a brilliant piece of engineering, really quick, and we're talking seconds here, not minutes. What I really like about the jig is the repeatability. When you put the blade in the jig, you KNOW that you are honing at the very edge, so honing takes the minimum amount of time possible.

But I am never to old to learn something new. And I'm more then willing to spend a few hours on learning freehand sharpening. But I don't understand how you get that repeatability.

Let's take a practical example. I am planing. The blade has been shaped on the grinder and sharpened and honed using a jig or freehand, whatever. But now while I am planing I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Racers":1tgu2dsc said:


> Hi, Gary
> 
> But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.
> 
> Pete


 

When it boils down to aquiring skill sets, is the mode of transport, journey or final destination most important? 

I agree half a day spent sharpening may appear to be time lost, but this theoretical timescale does not quantify the number of tools sharpened, nor does it prove the time was wasted. Time was never wasted if what was learned during this half day reduces the length of time spent during the next sharpening session and the end results are keen edged tools and improved sharpening skills. 

If sharpening is left until all tools are blunted it will take an excessive amount of time to re-sharpen them, but the norm - in my experience - is to re-whet/touch up an edge whenever necessary and not leave sharpening until you've an excessive number of edged tools to re-work. A valuable factor to consider is for one not to leave re-honing until an edge is lost, but rather re-whet an edge as soon as it shows signs becoming dulled.


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Corneel":1x5ae3si said:


> Until now I've been a real sharpening jig lover. The Eclipse is a brilliant piece of engineering, really quick, and we're talking seconds here, not minutes. What I really like about the jig is the repeatability. When you put the blade in the jig, you KNOW that you are honing at the very edge, so honing takes the minimum amount of time possible.
> 
> But I am never to old to learn something new. And I'm more then willing to spend a few hours on learning freehand sharpening. But I don't understand how you get that repeatability.
> 
> Let's take a practical example. I am planing. The blade has been shaped on the grinder and sharpened and honed using a jig or freehand, whatever. But now while I am planing I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?




You find the edge by laying the primary bevel flat on your oil/water stone and raise the body of the iron until the fore end of the bevel displaces surplus oil/water slurry ahead of the cutting edge. This normally indicates the fact your iron is tilted at an angle matching that of the original secondary bevel and a few passes on the stone at this angle will re-whet the edge.

Learning this allows you to quickly regain your original secondary bevel and it's a simple case of checking the resulting angle against a protractor and adjusting your stance until the desired angle is achieved. With a little practise, muscle memory is obtained and this becomes a fully repeatable process.


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## gus3049 (11 Oct 2011)

Agree about the regular honing. We were taught to spend five minutes at the start of EVERY day in the workshop, quickly running all the tools we were going to use that day over the water stone. It keeps the cutting bevel spot on and you know that every tool will be at its best. It only needs a very light pass to keep them sharp..


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

gus3049":eefjxg69 said:


> Jacob":eefjxg69 said:
> 
> 
> > But its all about the woodworking, if you have to spend half a day sharping thats 1/4 of your weekend gone (possibly more depending on what else you have on) I know in the long run it will pay off, but its more important to make something, given the limited time.
> ...


I know, I know. :roll: 
But what to do when people keep asking the same questions? Give them different answers every time? 
They keep stumbling from the outer darkness towards me, clutching their jigs, wittering and moaning. 
Night of the Living Dead meets Groundhog Day.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

Corneel":26vt7hr4 said:


> ..... I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?


You hone it at 30º as near as you can judge and *feel* for the burr extending *right across the full width* of the face. And you look at it , hold it up to the light, whatever. Just use your common sense!


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

gus3049":juw26jj6 said:


> Agree about the regular honing. We were taught to spend five minutes at the start of EVERY day in the workshop, quickly running all the tools we were going to use that day over the water stone. It keeps the cutting bevel spot on and you know that every tool will be at its best. It only needs a very light pass to keep them sharp..



Yep. We used to do pretty much the same, but typically also grabbed a few minutes at the end of each day to re-check and whet edges in prep for the following mornings activities. You're then able to hit the work running instead of having a flat start each time. We'd often save major sharpening and regrinding for break times..... especially saws and I've often sat myself down and re-sharpened & set a saw or two, plus checked my chisels and plane irons during my half hour breaks and still managed to have a sandwich and a cuppa, or three.


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## Corneel (11 Oct 2011)

Jacob":2w1dobzs said:


> Corneel":2w1dobzs said:
> 
> 
> > ..... I feel that the edge looses its sharpness, so I pull it out of the plane. It doesn't need a complete grinding session, just a quick honing on my finest stone. How do I find the edge?
> ...



So, first I do a test hone. Then try to feel the burr. When I don't feel the bur I must correct the angle. But: How do I re-find the corrected angle? Oh, and I really can't feel a burr when honing on a 8000 stone.

A quick google search gave me ideas to use the hollow grind for balancing the iron on the stone. That's not the same I guess as trying to make a secondary bevel freehand?

What I'm really looking for is a good video to get me started. I'm afraid common sense isn't enough.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

Corneel":37e48tgo said:


> Jacob":37e48tgo said:
> 
> 
> > Corneel":37e48tgo said:
> ...


Pretend you are on a desert island with nobody about to ask and you have to escape by making a boat which will be impossible unless you can sharpen a plane blade freehand on an oil stone at 30º ish. You'd pull yourself together and get it sorted in minutes! Or die.
It's proactive - you have to do it, and look at and think about what you are doing.
Somehow it's like teaching people to walk, who haven't actually lost the ability but have just talked themselves out of it and gone into a trance.


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## Corneel (11 Oct 2011)

I can sharpen a plane iron or chisel freehand, at something like 30 degrees, no problem. 

What I can't is resharpen it!

Well, of course going through the grids will get me a sharp edge again at the cost of a lot of metal and time. But I see sometimes videos of old guys working, puting the chisel to the stone for a couple of swirls, and start working again. That's what baffles me. 

I suspect I am the analytical kind of guy and want to understand before I try.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2011)

Corneel":1jsnw46c said:


> I can sharpen a plane iron or chisel freehand, at something like 30 degrees, no problem.
> 
> What I can't is resharpen it!..


It's not so much "resharpen" it's more about keeping it sharp, little and often. To get "repeatable" results (the holy grail) you do it the same way every time. This gets slower as the bevel extends, until you need to regrind. (Forgetting the rounded under bevel for the moment. :shock: one thing at a time)


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## gus3049 (11 Oct 2011)

Corneel":253y21z3 said:


> I can sharpen a plane iron or chisel freehand, at something like 30 degrees, no problem.
> 
> What I can't is resharpen it!
> 
> ...



All I do is find the main flat area of the grind by placing the chisel or cutter onto the stone. By rocking it slightly, its is obvious where the flat is. Increase the angle slightly and pull the blade towards you a few times. You soon learn the amount of extra angle to use. This should hone the cutting bevel. Once thats done a very light rub of the flat side will remove any burr you MAY have created. This is a matter of trial and error until it becomes second nature. I realise there are those who need the instructions and want to be exact but it is not always necessary. There are times when really sharp is as good as exceedingly sharp and hand honing will always achieve the former but the latter will come with practice.


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## Corneel (11 Oct 2011)

So let me try to wrap my mind around this one.

We have a chisel fresh from the grinder and put a minimal secondary bevel of 30 degree on it.
We cut some wood with it and feel that it needs a tough up.
So we put the chisel back on the stone at something like 30 degrees, could be 32, could be 28, we don't know. But because the secondary bevel is so small it DOESN'T REALLY MATTER. We just make a new secondary bevel at that new angle. 
We shouldn't look too quickly at how we are doing because each time we lift up the chisel and have a look, we will put the chisel down at yet another angle and have to start over.

That's about it?

I've plenty of time to think about this at the moment because I strained my back and am not up to much good anyway.


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## Corneel (11 Oct 2011)

Thanks for the ideas Gordon.


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## jimi43 (11 Oct 2011)

Time saved by not using jigs....30 seconds...

Time spent wombling on and on about it in every single thread on sharpening....3 weeks, 2 days 10 hours, 15 minutes, 6 seconds and counting..... :roll: 

Priceless..... :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## Corneel (11 Oct 2011)

I wouldn't dream of going freehand, if it wasn't for the gouges.


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Corneel":20lx367n said:


> So let me try to wrap my mind around this one.
> 
> We have a chisel fresh from the grinder and put a minimal secondary bevel of 30 degree on it.
> We cut some wood with it and feel that it needs a tough up.
> ...




Yep, that just about sums it up.  

A primary grind/bevel lays the foundation and the secondary bevel simply refines the edge. Text book angles are there for guidance and the primary focus should be on achieving a sound, keen cutting edge based around grinding angles. An individual is free to test drive angle variations in order to find what works best for him/herself on the timber being dealt with, whilst not needing to worry whether or not the world will end if a honing angle is plus or minus a half degree from "ideal". It's a law of averages kind of thing.


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## Corneel (11 Oct 2011)

Yeah it's not that I am interested in the exact angle. It's about wasting time when you rehone at a shallower angle.

But I am going to sleep now, and dream about sharp edges :lol:


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Corneel":26mydw2k said:


> I can sharpen a plane iron or chisel freehand, at something like 30 degrees, no problem.
> 
> What I can't is resharpen it!
> 
> ...



It's called whetting the edge. "Old guys" simply do this by trusting their senses.

Perhaps the best approach is not to over analyse matters and simply relax more in your approach to sharpening. Stance and grip tend to dictate the angles worked. This is how honing guides work by clamping the iron at an angle suiting one necessary to achieve the target angle. By going freehand, all you're doing is replacing mechanical means with those already possessed by yourself. Your own senses.


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Corneel":2k9nbr4p said:


> Yeah it's not that I am interested in the exact angle. It's about wasting time when you rehone at a shallower angle.
> 
> But I am going to sleep now, and dream about sharp edges :lol:



Simply position your fingers at a point of the blade - behind the edge - with the blade set at a known angle and a knuckle in contact with the sharpening medium. If you begin removing flesh when honing an edge, you know your angle of attack is too low. :lol:


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## Vann (11 Oct 2011)

GazPal":3jsx1fix said:


> I agree half a day spent sharpening may appear to be time lost, but this theoretical timescale does not quantify the number of tools sharpened, nor does it prove the time was wasted. Time was never wasted if what was learned during this half day reduces the length of time spent during the next sharpening session and the end results are keen edged tools and improved sharpening skills.


If only it was but half a day. 
That works if you're an apprentice and spend half a day learning to sharpen. Then each morning/afternoon you rehone all your tools for months until you have the muscle memory to be able to do it naturally.

But for the part timer you might spend half a day practicing, then not get back into the workshop for another two weeks by which time all muscle memory has gone so you spend another half day practicing. Then the missus reminds you you're going out that afternoon and you don't get back into the workshop for another 2 weeks, where you spend another half day trying to remember what you have twice half-learnt and twice lost... You get my drift.

I was taught to freehand hone on an oilstone (a la Jacob). But then I haven't worked at my trade for 30 odd years. I could probably still do it. But I like the precision of a honing guide, and I don't want the frustration of faffing it up freehand.

And if I *was *stuck on a desert island with just a Record 04 and a tree, well I'd be too scared to make a boat to sail home in case my dovetails weren't up to scratch... :roll: 

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Harbo (11 Oct 2011)

As I see it it is the Freehanders who moan and moan and moan about people using jigs not the other way round?

Rod


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## GazPal (11 Oct 2011)

Vann":27005opa said:


> If only it was but half a day.
> That works if you're an apprentice and spend half a day learning to sharpen. Then each morning/afternoon you rehone all your tools for months until you have the muscle memory to be able to do it naturally.
> 
> But for the part timer you might spend half a day practicing, then not get back into the workshop for another two weeks by which time all muscle memory has gone so you spend another half day practicing. Then the missus reminds you you're going out that afternoon and you don't get back into the workshop for another 2 weeks, where you spend another half day trying to remember what you have twice half-learnt and twice lost... You get my drift.
> ...



Yes, time is precious and I certainly get your drift, while already agreeing to the preference or need some have for honing guides. I also agree there's nothing wrong with using them. Like yourself and Jacob, I too was taught to freehand hone using oil stones, but simply advocate others practise doing so - if they wish - as it can help them become more familiar with their tools.

This half day's worth of sharpening that's been mentioned shouldn't really be necessary and one could very easily practise whilst thumbing through fora, watching tv, or reviewing a tool catalogue or three. It was only last year when I taught my son how to hone freehand before he began his cabinetmaking apprenticeship and he pretty much had things figured out within a half hour or so.



Harbo":27005opa said:


> As I see it it is the Freehanders who moan and moan and moan about people using jigs not the other way round?
> 
> Rod



Moaning isn't exclusive to freehanders, otherwise you'd not be passing such comments and others wouldn't prove so defensive of their preferences. :wink: 

The fact is everyone's free to make their own choice as to sharpening methods/techniques.


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## Paul Chapman (11 Oct 2011)

GazPal":2mju6fuv said:


> Moaning isn't exclusive to freehanders



Unless their name is Jacob :lol: Pity he can't accept that most of us are quite happy with the way we hone our blades. 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2011)

Vann":p4ghe4r5 said:


> .........
> But for the part timer you might spend half a day practicing, then not get back into the workshop for another two weeks by which time all muscle memory has gone ......


It's like riding a bike - once done never forgotten. Takes a lot longer to learn to ride a bike as it's a lot more difficult. 
In fact there is nothing much to "learn" about freehand honing - you just do it. The results will be adequate at the beginning but will improve with time - if you want them to. It's proactive - you decide the outcome and work to whatever level you choose.


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## bugbear (12 Oct 2011)

Jacob":3b73u76k said:


> bugbear":3b73u76k said:
> 
> 
> > Bit of a false dichotomy there.
> ...



Speaking as the brother of someone who spent their entire career successfully guiding children through school, exams and life, I find that particular quote particularly offensive. Well done, you've managed to be even more annoying than usual.

BugBear


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## bugbear (12 Oct 2011)

Vann":jh997gzs said:


> GazPal":jh997gzs said:
> 
> 
> > I agree half a day spent sharpening may appear to be time lost, but this theoretical timescale does not quantify the number of tools sharpened, nor does it prove the time was wasted. Time was never wasted if what was learned during this half day reduces the length of time spent during the next sharpening session and the end results are keen edged tools and improved sharpening skills.
> ...



Five weeks according to Jacob. Or one week. Or half an hour. Or "just do it". The story changes.

BugBear


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## GazPal (12 Oct 2011)

bugbear":1hk4t2rx said:


> Vann":1hk4t2rx said:
> 
> 
> > GazPal":1hk4t2rx said:
> ...




Considering the fact most speak of woodworking as a recreational hobby, is there a particular need to apply timescales upon learning practical skill sets. Uptake and attitude will always vary from individual to individual.

------------

As you're doubtless aware, in days of old, teachers were often those who were unable ply their trade following serious injury/illness, or otherwise unable to convert theoretical knowledge into practicing their chosen profession. Hence the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." Whilst teaching is a truly commendable vocation, some travel that route simply because they're unable to find work or earn a living as e.g. mathematicians, artists, biologist, professional sportsmen/women, historians, or authors, for whatever reasons. Most teachers do so through choice and because they enjoy their work, but a few still fit into the category I've already mentioned. I've a sister who wanted to work as a professional artist, but lacks the self discipline and patience to do so and so she chose to become a teacher. Am I offended by Jacob's use of an age old phrase? No. 

If I were in the marketplace for work I'd need to consider teaching as a viable option, because health issues no longer allow me to practice my trade as a cabinetmaker. I'd literally fall into the "Those who can't, teach" category. Would I be offended by such a description? No, but I would define the reasoning behind my career decision.


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## clk230 (12 Oct 2011)

how can someone on an internet forum using an age old saying with a smiley after it offend anyone , if that offends you maybe internet forums aren't for you.

its only bl**** woodwork


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## bugbear (12 Oct 2011)

clk230":dfqh28ti said:


> how can someone on an internet forum using an age old saying with a smiley after it offend anyone , if that offends you maybe internet forums aren't for you.
> 
> its only bl**** woodwork



It's "only" an insult to someone's career that benefited many. Just in case I'm being over sensitive, I would welcome a citation (in context) of that hoary old saying being used in any sense other than to imply teachers are ignorant, stupid or useless.

You may well wonder at Jacob's ability to offend... It's well practised and attested.

BugBear


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## markturner (12 Oct 2011)

It's not about the actual words, Jacob is very good at subtly winding up the people who don't agree with him. He also likes to use provocative statements. No problem in that, but understandably some people take it better than others.. Don't feed the troll I say.....!!


Cheers, Mark


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2011)

markturner":3umhhikq said:


> It's not about the actual words, Jacob is very good at subtly winding up the people who don't agree with him.


Only by way of retaliation! I don't set out to annoy anybody but there is a small group who seem to find everything I say annoying and they tend to be pretty aggressive and sarcastic. I am entitled to respond.


> He also likes to use provocative statements. ......


Well true I admit it. Makes for livelier discussion. There is a very dominant orthodoxy amongst some forum members and it does no harm to challenge it IMHO.


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## markturner (12 Oct 2011)

no two Cs either.......so they were both wrong!!!!

Always 2 sides to every view I suppose.


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## Noel (12 Oct 2011)

There's been many a thread ruined recently by a few folk, 3 or so in particular. Please, no more or you'll all be going on a little holiday very soon.


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## jimi43 (12 Oct 2011)

Noel":bcp6uk42 said:


> There's been many a thread ruined recently by a few folk, 3 or so in particular. Please, no more or you'll all be going on a little holiday very soon.



=D> =D> =D> 

Jim


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## Racers (12 Oct 2011)

Holiday?


Noel taking us to the Zoo tomorrow, 
Zoo tomorrow, 
Zoo tomorrow,
Zoo tomorrow,

we can play all day

we're going to the Zoo, Zoo, Zoo....



Pete :wink:


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## powertools (12 Oct 2011)

I think the one thing that this thread proves is that in woodworking there is no right or wrong way to do things.
The answer is to do things with the tools you have to hand or are prepared to buy and produce things you are happy with.


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## Noel (12 Oct 2011)

Racers":1efeyt1h said:


> Holiday?
> 
> 
> Noel taking us to the Zoo tomorrow,
> ...



Whatever you're on I'll have some..........
Seriously, why the zoo? It would be boringly familiar, no?


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## Doug B (12 Oct 2011)

Racers":1fc4ugez said:


> Holiday?
> 
> 
> Noel taking us to the Zoo tomorrow,
> ...




Your showing your age there Pete 8-[ 


Cheers.


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## Benchwayze (13 Oct 2011)

woodbrains":6jpg1ab1 said:


> Hello Jacob,
> 
> Like I said, I've nothing against freehand sharpening, only about people who fool themselves into thinking they are actually getting the same level of sharpness as those who use guides because that is what gets them the sharpness they require.
> Mike.



Woodie, 

I am sure your post is not directed at me personally. 
However, *I do NOT fool myself *]into believing my tools are sharp. The fact is, I know when they aren't, and I do something about it. 

I use a guide these days, but not because I am worried about the correct angles. I do so because freehand sharpening is difficult now, due to arthritis and tenosynovitis. Experienced freehand sharpeners automatically lock the arm into the right position for the edge they want. Maybe that's why I have my joint problems. I also moved to water-stones, because they do cut faster, and the sludge is easier to remove from my hands, without solvents. As someone said, the sharpening method you use is a personal choice. But unless you have used both methods, how do you compare one with the other?

The plain truth is, the angle of either bevel isn't as important as you seem to believe. The 25 degrees for instance, is only a ball-park figure. A few seconds of arc one way or the other, is neither here nor there; for either of the bevels. What is important is the state of the back. So, as long as that isn't like the surface of the moon you're okay. (the back doesn't *need* to be Mirror-bright' either. Just enough reflectivity with which to eyeball angles.) 

I don't often see manufacturers of guides stressing the need for a truly flat back.

So, no I don't fool myself thank you. I don't notice any difference in the edge I get with a guide and the edge I used to get freehand. So, have you considered it might be the 'scary-sharp' advocates who have fallen for the hype of the manufacturers of all this equipment? 

Regards
John 

PS I haven't tried the 'ruler-trick', so I can't comment, in case you wondered! :wink:


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## Allylearm (13 Oct 2011)

I do not use guides but I do use a tormek when I can and appreciate the edge you get. But on site or on the job I do not carry a Tormek so hand honed is used. But to be honest if on the tormek I leave at 25/30 degree with no additional hone on the edge. By hand I do add the hone to the edge. My backs are not mirrir but they do have an acceptable finish shine.

I worked with others who only honed the back to keep flat and never messed with the hone on front. I found the edge acceptable but still preferred what I done above. The important thing here is there is no right or wrong, the edge I got or get now does the job I make my living at for the last 35 years.


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## jimi43 (23 Oct 2011)

Hey Vann......good luck with the game my friend!

Jim


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## jimi43 (23 Oct 2011)

Congratulations on winning the rugby Vann...superb result! 

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 

Jim


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## jimi43 (23 Oct 2011)

Did you watch the rugby match Tommo....great game wasn't it? 8) 

Jim


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## Vann (23 Oct 2011)

jimi43":20db5qc6 said:


> Congratulations on winning the rugby Vann...superb result!
> 
> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
> 
> Jim


Thanks Jimi. I went around to friends to watch on a big screen (about 3m x 5m - takes up the whole wall of the room 8) ).

I'm not so much of a rugby fan as to pay $1100 for a ticket to the final (hell, I could buy a nice Cliffie for that money :shock: ). I think the Froggies played better than we did (in the final), but overall (no All Black losses vrs two losses to the French) I think we deserved to win the Cup.

Oops, off topic (but at least not "childish").

Cheers, Vann


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