# Domino joints for chairs?



## crackerjack (14 Jan 2010)

Hi guys

Gonna make some chairs soon. Standard dining room kind of thing.

Is the Festool domino jointing system okay for this or should I be looking at haunched M&T for the leg/upper rail joints?

Jack


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## Chems (14 Jan 2010)

According to Festool its brilliant at chairs and having only had my domino system for the past 3 weeks I can already see why. Just as strong as a normal mortice and tenon but with the added advantage of not having to make compound tenons.


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## MikeG. (15 Jan 2010)

Jack,

do it properly, and take pride in that. Think of the guy restoring it in a hundred years time.......what will he think? Are you proud enough of your work to put your name on it? When you sit on it you will always know that you did it properly and with pride. Forget the faddy domino.

Mike


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## JonnyD (15 Jan 2010)

I think doing it properly can include the use of the domino you will get strong well fitting joints and as you are likely to have a few angled joints a lot easier as well. Having well fitted corner blocks also adds a lot of strength to the chair as well and combined with the dominos should be fine for the top rail joints and result in a chair you can be proud of.


cheers

jon


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## maltrout512 (15 Jan 2010)

> Think of the guy restoring it in a hundred years time.......what will he think?



Just what I think now having to repair/reglue chairs with dowels :twisted: :twisted:


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":3kp3hsbs said:


> Jack,
> 
> do it properly, and take pride in that. Think of the guy restoring it in a hundred years time.......what will he think? Are you proud enough of your work to put your name on it? When you sit on it you will always know that you did it properly and with pride. Forget the faddy domino.
> 
> Mike



Mike, 

The last chair I restored was a 1930's drop-in seat affair, mass-produced and joined with dowels. All the joints were loose of course, but it had withstood a lot of misuse in it's wobbly-state! All that was required was a dismantling, cleaning up and the replacing of three dowels. I did consider making slip-tenons to replace the dowels, but I reckoned the dowels would suffice. They did. 

And Malcolm... The 10mm dowels I used to replace the broken ones were going to be better than the 3/8" ones that were there. Thinking back, I should have replaced them all! 

Regards
John


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## Doug B (15 Jan 2010)

Why is a loose tenon any less a proper joint than a standard tenon joint?

Would cutting 2 mortises buy hand & fitting a hand cut loose tenon make it a proper joint?


Why should some ones pride in something they make be affected by some one else`s expectations. 


Jack, make your chairs with whichever techniques you wish, i`m sure as a domino will be quite suffice.

Take pride in what you produce, i`m sure you will. But most of all enjoy your woodwork, that`s what it`s all about.

Best of luck with the chairs.


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## Chems (15 Jan 2010)

Doug B":3ait4jpj said:


> Why is a loose tenon any less a proper joint than a standard tenon joint?



And its only a loose tenon if you set it as loose tenon on the tool otherwise it will probably be as tight as the best hand cut tenons.


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## wizer (15 Jan 2010)

Making chairs in one big reason I intend to buy a Domino.


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## Chris Knight (15 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":11mn1ucv said:


> Jack,
> 
> do it properly, and take pride in that. Think of the guy restoring it in a hundred years time.......what will he think? Are you proud enough of your work to put your name on it? When you sit on it you will always know that you did it properly and with pride. Forget the faddy domino.
> 
> Mike



Could be the start of another great debate Mike! Prithee - what is "proper"?

Fit for purpose, in the tradition of xxxxx (fill in the blanks here), handmade by virgins in Japan, made with the latest glue from Titebond or animal glue extracted from the scrotum of a Yeti?


You get the drift..


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## Woody Alan (15 Jan 2010)

> virgins in Japan,... glue extracted from the scrotum of a Yeti


Have Axminster got these back in stock? I though supply had dried up completely

Alan


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## woodbloke (15 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":2oidsa51 said:


> Jack,
> 
> do it properly, and take pride in that. Think of the guy restoring it in a hundred years time.......what will he think? Are you proud enough of your work to put your name on it? When you sit on it you will always know that you did it properly and with pride. Forget the faddy domino.
> 
> Mike


I think you're wrong here Mike...doms *is* proper for this sort of job and if it's made correctly, it won't _need_ restoring in a hundred years time. The dom simply replaces a m/t or dowel joint, thats all - Rob


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## MikeG. (15 Jan 2010)

No I'm right...........it's the whole of the rest of the world that is wrong! :wink: 

Mike


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

waterhead37":19esmgcs said:


> Mike Garnham":19esmgcs said:
> 
> 
> > Jack,
> ...



The Japanese Virgins would probably use rice glue. Then what is left over at the end of the day can be eaten for tea! 

John


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## MikeG. (15 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":23hlpyz3 said:


> The dom simply replaces a m/t or dowel joint, thats all - Rob



Rob, this is philosophical for me. 

I haven't the least doubt that these new fangled domino loose tenons are the most wonderful thing on the planet, and will make an incredibly strong chair. That really isn't the point. They might only replace the m&t or the dowel in your eyes........in mine, they replace the craft.

I don't do woodworking just to cut bits of wood to length and assemble them. I enjoy the craft, the skill, the thinking, the problem solving. I just think that there is no honesty in a piece of furniture made by a hobbyist.......I repeat, a hobbyist, that doesn't involve *craft*. 

Wang all the bits of wood through a few machines, hack them off to to length and offer up an instant-joint-machine if you want. Fine. We'll all ask what sort of finish was used and offer congratulations on the nice tapered legs. But isn't the whole point to occupy ourselves meaningfully until we die, and to do what we do with a bit of integrity?

I can afford to go out and buy something from every single page in the Axminster catalogue. But where would that leave me? My hobby wouldn't be about the wood any more, nor about the finished piece of furniture.......my hobby would be all about feeding machines, or using the special one-off hand-tool made by 300 year old goblins. I actually don't care very much about tools, as long as they are sharp. I care about craft, about skills and about knowledge. I care about wood and I care about design. 

Why make an easy piece of woodwork easier? I'm just not in that sort of a rush......Remember, at the moment I am not a professional woodworker........if I were it would be an entirely different kettle of fish. If I want loose tenons I make them. I don't buy them in a plastic box and install them into a hole cut by a £500 machine using all the skill of someone who can hold a power tool up to a line. When we've let a machine de-skill that process for us, what are we going to give up to machines next?

Now, you have to understand that I am not anti-machine, nor am I accusing anyone who uses machines in general or a domino in particular of being unskillful. I didn't use any machinery at all until 2 or 3 years ago, and now really enjoy the PT and bandsaw. I'll get a tablesaw one day when I have the room. But I view these as labour saving devices rather than skill-replacing devices. Skills and outcome are my interest..........craft and design. 

If I was paying a pro to build me some fitted furniture I would hope that he would actually be using a domino so that he could save himself some time and therefore me some money.........but when I do woodwork for the fun of it, I'm damned if I'm going to have one, or apologise for suggesting that we might feel better about a piece of furniture made without one.

Rob, none of the "you"s in this piece should be read as you. I should have written in the abstract "one"......"one can do this or that", but it will take too much re-writing now. I don't hold these dominos and all the other shiny things you guys gloat about against the owners, but do hope you understand that they fall outside my area of interest, and outside my philosophy of woodwork.

Right, there it is folks. Rip me to bits........

Mike


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## SBJ (15 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":owj665eh said:


> ....Right, there it is folks. Rip me to bits........
> 
> Mike




Mike, I think that what you say is spot on - you have to meet your *own* needs for what you want from a hobby. For some, it's the creation of a piece, for others it's how we create it. In a funny sort of way they are at odds with each other as demonstrated in this thread. Surely though the most important part, which you alluded to is that we enjoy it?


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

The fact is Mike, I don't think we can rip you to bits. 
Your philosophy is a good one.

As someone on the forum says, 

Say what you feel ... Them as mind don't matter... Them as matter don't mind!

John


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## wizer (15 Jan 2010)

I don't disagree with you Mike. But if I want to make 8 chairs for a dining table, there's plenty of proper woodworking that I can do in the shaping of the parts. A few M&T's are fine, but 8 chairs worth doesn't sound enjoyable to me.


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## captain mainwaring (15 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":1y5ophqz said:


> No I'm right...........it's the whole of the rest of the world that is wrong! :wink:
> 
> Mike



Sounding suspiciously like Gerry McCann there Mike!


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## wizer (15 Jan 2010)

Mike, Made with a Festool Domino:


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## MikeG. (15 Jan 2010)

wizer":dwsmkqx3 said:


> Mike, Made with a Festool Domino



and..........?


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## wizer (15 Jan 2010)

My point is you can still spend lots of enjoyable man hours beautifully sculpting a piece of furniture and use a domino to join the parts without it being 'made by machine' or 'without craft'. Otherwise it's time to chuck away you bandsaw, no?


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## big soft moose (15 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":159q1110 said:


> But isn't the whole point to occupy ourselves meaningfully until we die, and to do what we do with a bit of integrity?



not in my case - in my case (with the exception of turning) the point is to furnish the marital home with decent furniture that doesnt come from ikea , which we cant afford to buy and therefore has to be made. Or in the case of work to furnish the thames path and ridgeway with nice sign boards, finger posts, and benches which we also cant afford to buy and are therefore made by the volunteer scheme. If machines enable us to make the best possible use of ourt time then i'm all for them.



Mike Garnham":159q1110 said:


> I can afford to go out and buy something from every single page in the Axminster catalogue.



I actually have a similar low level of machine tools though , simply because i am not in the financial position to do this, every machine or tool has to justify its cost and space and is not procured without first thinking do i need this or can i do the job adequately with the tools i have - for example i'm not going to buy a domino because for what i do a biscuit jointer is sufficient.


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## wizer (15 Jan 2010)

big soft moose":34spc69q said:


> [not in my case - in my case (with the exception of turning) the point is to furnish the marital home with decent furniture that doesnt come from ikea ,



This is why I got in to woodworking and I need to keep reminding myself because, as yet, I've not built any furniture for the marital home.....


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## SBJ (15 Jan 2010)

Fun messing around in the shed though isn't it


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## MikeG. (15 Jan 2010)

wizer":1any7qe4 said:


> big soft moose":1any7qe4 said:
> 
> 
> > not in my case - in my case the point is to furnish the marital home with decent furniture that doesnt come from ikea ,
> ...



et moi aussie.


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## wizer (15 Jan 2010)

SBJ":iwnqiena said:


> Fun messing around in the shed though isn't it



So what we're _all _saying, is that we enjoy woodworking?


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## Jake (15 Jan 2010)

I can't get het up about process at all, I love using good tools whether they are motorised or not. I care far more about form and function. One downside of process-obsession in craft woodworking is that people stick (to my mind) too many unnecessary frilly bits on their pieces to prove the 'handcrafted process' when the piece would have looked better without them to my eyes.


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## crackerjack (15 Jan 2010)

wow - i didn't expect all those answers

I've got two young kids and the missus doesn't like me spending too much time in the shed so what little time I do get to do some joinery I have to be as productive as possible. I reckon the domino will enable me to get more done in as short sessions.

Seems pretty unanimous that the domino will be okay for chairs

Jack


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## woodbloke (15 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":es0vogcn said:


> They might only replace the m&t or the dowel in your eyes........in mine, they replace the craft.


Mikey, Mikey :lol: :lol: ...you need to drag yourself kicking and screaming into the 21st century (the vision of a Luditte is clouding my vision here, along with the second dram of the evening) 
You'd have fitted in well with Sydney Barnsley (as discussed on John's Hayrake thread on the other forum) 
Buy some decent planes to enjoy the craft a bit more (from the Axminster catalogue, like the rest of us :wink: ) and move on! :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## PAC1 (15 Jan 2010)

I am with Mike on the subject of the craft. It is important that craftsmen know how to cut a mortice and tennon joint and a dovetail with skill and efficiency. Thereafter they can go and make as many chairs as possible with the fesdrool gadget. But in 200 hundred years I would like to think someone is having this same debate about mortice and tennon joints


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## Benchwayze (16 Jan 2010)

The tools don't make the worker and I once considered my Stanleys as adequate. They were; until I tried out a high-end plane. I realised that better tools, do make a difference; to the work and to the enjoyment of it. 

As for a Domino. If I had one I could make a set of six diners and two carver chairs in next to no time! 

I did it in the 1960's, using hand-methods. I didn't even have a router. What I did have was time! Now I don't have so much time left to me and whatever I want to make, health permitting, I have to get on with it. So if I replace those chairs, (and they need replacing), I might buy a Domino. I doubt it, but I might.

For my Hayrake Table, I'll use Mike's 'proper joints'. But I will cut the mortices with a hollow-square chisel. I can do the chairs like that too. The joints will still be proper M&Ts! 

So it's a case of what I want to make; how much time I have, and my levels of skill. The main thing is, as Wizer intimated. I enjoy the craft. 

But Mike, at least visit a tool shop, or maybe a 'bash', and try out some of these high end planes. They are just planes and they're used by hand. I don't think you would be on the slope, but you might have to admit they are better. :wink: 

Regards
John


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## BradNaylor (16 Jan 2010)

crackerjack":bfl49rpt said:


> wow - i didn't expect all those answers
> 
> I've got two young kids and the missus doesn't like me spending too much time in the shed so what little time I do get to do some joinery I have to be as productive as possible. I reckon the domino will enable me to get more done in as short sessions.
> 
> ...




I think what Jack's saying is that he just wants to make some bloody chairs!

I like you and respect your views Mike, but I do find a lot of this 'Arts and Crafts' philosophy a load of pretentious pineapples.

There is nothing intrinsically 'better' about a piece of furniture made entirely by hand than one one that pops off the end of a production line. There is no more 'integrity' in a hand-cut M&T or dovetail than in a Dom joint. They are just different ways of connecting two bits of wood together.

I appreciate that you are talking about hobby rather than commercial woodwork, but even if I was doing it purely for my own satisfaction I think I would be more interested in the form and function of the finished piece than the mechanics of how it was assembled. My wife *certainly* would be!

However, I defend your right to use slow and obselete techniques if that's what really floats your boat...


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## woodbloke (16 Jan 2010)

BradNaylor":anly3s6d said:


> a lot of this 'Arts and Crafts' philosophy a load of pretentious pineapples.


It is basically, but too be fair, you need to realize where the A&C movement was coming from and that was a complete 180deg reversal from the gross over ornamentation and machine made stuff of the late Victorians to a much more simplified and honest approach. That they went completely overboard is to be expected and gradually the pendulum has swung back somewhere towards the middle...if you follow the drift. 
That's why I agree that a dom system of construction is fine and to be applauded for use in A&C furniture. As you rightly say Brad, it's only a way of joining two sticks of wood together - Rob


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## MikeG. (16 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":30jpds1k said:


> As you rightly say Brad, it's only a way of joining two sticks of wood together - Rob



So, in 20 years time a home hobbyist can sit at his computer and make a 3D sketchup-up-type model, push a button, and then just go and feed wood into his 5 way CNC router ...........all that will be left to do will be to apply glue and cramp it up. After wiping on a bit of oil you guys will still be saying that this is fine? It's the result that counts?

Great, but you're on a different planet from mine.

Mike


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## PAC1 (16 Jan 2010)

Brad wrote: 
"They are just different ways of connecting two bits of wood together." 

Yes but at the moment the craftsman knows how to do both and can choose which method to use. 

I did my apprenticeship 30 years ago and I am able to carry out a range of skills from building a traditional hipped roof to building a complex staircase. Today I have 7 sheets of MDF my tablesaw and biscuit jointer to convert the MDF into a built in wall unit for a plasma TV and lots of storage. There will not be a M&T involved not even in the doors! 

We need skilled craftsmen who can build a traditional hipped roof and know all the methods of jointing wood so that they have the ability to do the work if needed and knowledge to make the right choice.[/quote]


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## Alf (16 Jan 2010)

Mike, were you into woodworking while John Brown was still kicking around his ideas in _Good Woodworking_ magazine? Because I'm much reminded of him, and the responses you're getting are very similar to the letters they used to get in response to JB's articles. Mind you, he eventually owned a coupla LN planes iirc, so you've still got a bit of a way to go. :wink: 

Reckon half the joy of woodworking is how different folks can get different things out of it. I like the history and the journey; someone else will view the end product as the important bit. _Vive la différence_ sez I, in a dodgy French accent... :lol:


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## MikeG. (16 Jan 2010)

Alf":2k2g06qp said:


> Mike, were you into woodworking while John Brown was still kicking around his ideas in _Good Woodworking_ magazine?



I don't know Alf! I've been woodworking for about 30 years, and have only ever read woodworking magazines in dentists waiting rooms  I am self taught, and until 2 or 3 years ago thought I was the only person in Britain who retreated into my shed at any opportunity to play with wood. I'm afraid I still don't know who John Brown is or was.

Mike


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## Benchwayze (16 Jan 2010)

Mike:

“By all means read what the experts have to say.
Just don’t let it get in the way of your woodworking.”
— John Brown, welsh stick chairmaker



http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/bl ... 22008.aspx
Regards
John


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## Alf (16 Jan 2010)

That's the fellow; between us, Chris and I managed to get together all his articles a few years ago but I'd still give a limb to have them all brought together in a book. He was just a bit too far ahead of the curve with his Anarchist Woodworker idea, but it'd go down a storm now.


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## Benchwayze (16 Jan 2010)

I believe I have all his GW articles. I subscribed to the magazine from day one, until some time after JB passed on. All the copies are in the loft and for the moment that's where they will stay. 

I enjoyed them, even though I couldn't say I was quite the 'Luddite', but yes, they should be put into book-form.

John


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## big soft moose (16 Jan 2010)

BradNaylor":2vaf4d7u said:


> crackerjack":2vaf4d7u said:
> 
> 
> > wow - i didn't expect all those answers
> ...



spot on


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## MikeG. (16 Jan 2010)

BradNaylor":1jadt42v said:


> I like you and respect your views Mike, but I do find a lot of this 'Arts and Crafts' philosophy a load of pretentious pineapples.



I like and respect you to, Brad, and can happily acknowledge our differences. All I will say about this is that whilst I am architecturally interested in the arts and crafts movement, I actually have no idea whatsoever what their philosophy was. My views aren't a re-hashing of the views of others, because until I joined the GWW forum 18 months ago I had never ever had a conversation with another woodworker, nor read a single word written on woodworking. 

Woodworking....I just did it. I disappeared into my shed and worked it out for myself. No philosophy. So, disagree with me now if you will, but you are wrong if you suggest that I am part of any group or way of thinking. It's just me.

Mike


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## Benchwayze (16 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":1cczly9d said:


> BradNaylor":1cczly9d said:
> 
> 
> > I like you and respect your views Mike, but I do find a lot of this 'Arts and Crafts' philosophy a load of pretentious pineapples.
> ...



Having read a few more opinions on this, my cynicism leads me to suspect their philosophy was making as much money from the latest craze as they could... Much as a good many artists do today. 

At the same time, that doesn't stop me liking the style, and wanting to make something after it. 

John


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## Steve Maskery (16 Jan 2010)

Actually John, I believe the opposite is true. I thought that the A&C movement was a backlash against the industrialization of the woodworking craft as a result of the Industrial Revolution and the mechanisation of a lot of tasks (chair-making as a good example) which the Victorians had used to create a lot of cheap furniture in order to make as much money as possible. Decline of "quality" was the result, so Barnsley and chums went back to the old ways. 

I'm no ww historian, but that is my understanding.

S


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## Benchwayze (16 Jan 2010)

Yes Steve, that isn't without foundation. However, the virtual absence of this kind of furniture in the homes of the local 'rustics', led me to suspect they designed mainly for the more well-heeled. 

The idea of them being 'rebels' probably endeared them to certain sections of society. Without real experience of the age in which they lived, it's difficult to pin it down, but seeking patronage would make economic sense for any one in their position. 

So, even today genuine examples of their furniture are beyond the reach of most people, and as I said it's a case of 'Make it myself!'

John


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## jhwbigley (16 Jan 2010)

Steve Maskery":2twkye6t said:


> Actually John, I believe the opposite is true. I thought that the A&C movement was a backlash against the industrialization of the woodworking craft as a result of the Industrial Revolution and the mechanisation of a lot of tasks (chair-making as a good example) which the Victorians had used to create a lot of cheap furniture in order to make as much money as possible. Decline of "quality" was the result, so Barnsley and chums went back to the old ways.
> 
> I'm no ww historian, but that is my understanding.
> 
> S



The philosophy of it is something i've been reading into, very interesting.

now we are supposed to be in a state of post post modernism. :roll: 

JHB


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## Benchwayze (16 Jan 2010)

A book of their life and work is being considerd for my birthday pressie next month. I haven't chosen which book yet! 

But thanks for that pic JB... At least I know what tool to use to form those deep, country-style chamfers, like wot are on that big, bow-topped chest that Sydney made.  

Regards. 
John


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## MikeG. (16 Jan 2010)

We musn't run away with the thought that Arts & Crafts was mainly about furniture. It was an architectural and interior design movement, with the classic examples being houses such as William Morris' Red House, where everything, but everything, including the cutlery, was specially designed and crafted. 

Imagine suggesting to someone today that they have individual door knobs made especially for them!

Mike


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## Steve Maskery (16 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":1bmts8et said:


> Imagine suggesting to someone today that they have individual door knobs made especially for them!
> 
> Mike



Now that's what I call a Client.

Yum-yum!
S


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## jhwbigley (16 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":30fo970x said:


> We musn't run away with the thought that Arts & Crafts was mainly about furniture. It was an architectural and interior design movement, with the classic examples being houses such as William Morris' Red House, where everything, but everything, including the cutlery, was specially designed and crafted.
> 
> Imagine suggesting to someone today that they have individual door knobs made especially for them!
> 
> Mike



yes it was very much a total design movement.

i'm starting to enjoy all this reading i'm having to do on design history.


That reminds me, got to make some new handles for my draw knife! 

JHB


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## Benchwayze (16 Jan 2010)

I was scanning (repeat scanning, as in glancing!) at an article yesteday about such a house, somewhere in Surrey. I have never been to the particular place, but I had an eerie feeling that I knew the house intimately! 

I can't recall the name of it, but it too was A&C from the chimney pots to the foundations. Think it had 44 bedrooms! I must look it up again, but I am scared of nightmares about the icy feelings I got! Honest! 
Sounds daft I know. 

John


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## BradNaylor (16 Jan 2010)

I only made the 'Arts and Crafts' reference because what little I know of their philosophy regarding traditional artisanship resonated with what Mike was saying.

I wasn't suggesting that Mike was part of the Arts and Crafts movement. He seems to be very much his own man and has evidently arrived at a similar viewpoint by himself.

I admire him very much for sticking to his guns even though I don't agree with him on this.

Brad


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## Chems (17 Jan 2010)

Very mixed response which to be honest is expected really as know if I was making a really really nice piece of furniture that I wanted to be super proud of for ever I wouldn't use the domino as I'd feel I'd cheated a little.

But it comes to why you do woodworking, for 98% of us its a hobby so I do it for the enjoyment, can't explain it but seeing those cute little dominos so perfectly formed and everything aligning just as I dreamed it would when I first started woodworking gives me a lot of enjoyment. I've done my fair share of M&T and more often than not I get really disappointed as I've spent hours chopping them for them not to align up as I'd hoped or been as tight. But with the domino I enjoy the process just as much its still fun to machine and I get perfect results everytime.


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## woodbloke (17 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":yr757wes said:


> I was scanning (repeat scanning, as in glancing!) at an article yesteday about such a house, somewhere in Surrey. I have never been to the particular place, but I had an eerie feeling that I knew the house intimately!
> 
> I can't recall the name of it, but it too was A&C from the chimney pots to the foundations. Think it had 44 bedrooms! I must look it up again, but I am scared of nightmares about the icy feelings I got! Honest!
> Sounds daft I know.
> ...


Possibly the Red House? - Rob


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## wizer (17 Jan 2010)

That's literally 2mins in the car from me and I've never been. Must get round to it this year.


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## Benchwayze (17 Jan 2010)

It's in East Grinstead. It's called Standen or Sanden, and it has 21 bedrooms, not 44 Sorry chaps! 
 It's in the Jan issue of F&C. 
Of course I now know that East Grinstead is in Sussex (According to my memory!) They change so many things these days. I used to live in Warwickshire but now they call it West Midlands. Huh! 
 

John


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## sometimewoodworker (17 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":lc7s3d23 said:


> It's in East Grinstead. It's called Standen or Sanden, and it has 21 bedrooms, not 44 Sorry chaps!
> It's in the Jan issue of F&C.
> 
> John


http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-standen.htm


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## Benchwayze (17 Jan 2010)

sometimewoodworker":iadw3y42 said:


> Benchwayze":iadw3y42 said:
> 
> 
> > It's in East Grinstead. It's called Standen or Sanden, and it has 21 bedrooms, not 44 Sorry chaps!
> ...



And a blessed companion is a tour guide.... :wink: 

Thanks Jerome. 

Obliged
John


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