# Kitchen Cabinets



## ByronBlack (30 Apr 2007)

So, I've ripped half my kitchen out over the weekend. So I now have a nice 9ft worktop and cabs for the workshop - woot!

But, SWMBO being the demanding but lovable creature that she is has demanding I now fix this mess and install some nice shiny new cabinets and solid wood worktops. I also have to fit some wall cabinets where none have currently been.

Basically, I'm after a couple of deciding snippets of info.

Is it cheaper to buy the cabinets or make them myself? I'll need initially 3 x1000m cabs for the wall mounted section, and probably about the same for floor-mounted. If its cheaper/better to buy in who's a good supplier? Wickes and B&Q seem very expensive.

Even if I buy the cabinets, is it possible to buy these without doors? Basically, I need to make my own as we are looking at buying a Wickes's 'Take away' kitchen whilst they have 50% off, but they only supply 8 cabs with the kit and no seperate doors, so i'll need to make my own for the extra cabs I need to make.

Finally, the doors. I'll be making copies of the Wickes 'Edmonton' range which is vertical paneled doors. Is it best/affordable to do this in solid wood, or should I cheat and route grooves in MDF slabs to simulate the paneled look?


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## Ratter (30 Apr 2007)

I'm in a similar position myself and posted a thread about this a month ago.

Basically Scrit convinced me that making your own units was a mug's game because of the sheet size and weight of MFC and the time and trouble needed to cut cleanly and edge each piece.

B&Q cabinets ARE available without doors and their Select range seem quite good quality and have woodgrained finish. Not the cheapest but 33 - 50% off until end of May. 

Scrit also recommended Woodfit over in darkest Lancashire and their cabinets look good but they don't price them online and I haven't got around to emailing for a quote yet. I'm not convinced that such firms are that much cheaper unless you qualify for trade rates but I would recommend their (free) catalogue which is a mine of useful information.

I personally would never buy with doors because ranges change frequently and matching at a later date becomes impossible and anyway making doors is the fun part. If you route the grooves in MDF, I would say you really need to paint them afterwards although some of the cheaper ranges are like this but IMHO look just that, cheap.

But I guess the factors are:-

How large is your budget?
How large is your kitchen?
How long SWMBO can wait?

A final thought is having seen how much you can spend on other fittings, worktops etc, the difference in cost between a cheap and not so cheap unit pales into insignificance.

And if it makes you feel any better, a month after starting my kitchen I am still sorting old plumbing and electrics and rebuilding a stud wall which had several different levels and BT trunking in it for the wiring.


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## Scrit (30 Apr 2007)

ByronBlack":2kvomkaq said:


> Is it cheaper to buy the cabinets or make them myself? I'll need initially 3 x1000m cabs for the wall mounted section, and probably about the same for floor-mounted. If its cheaper/better to buy in who's a good supplier? Wickes and B&Q seem very expensive.


It all depends on whether you regard your time/back/patience as having any value, I suppose :wink: 



Ratter":2kvomkaq said:


> I'm in a similar position myself and posted a thread about this a month ago.
> 
> Basically Scrit convinced me that making your own units was a mug's game because of the sheet size and weight of MFC and the time and trouble needed to cut cleanly and edge each piece.


That's right, blame me! :wink: ....all I did was to present the facts, honest guvnor.



Ratter":2kvomkaq said:


> And if it makes you feel any better, a month after starting my kitchen I am still sorting old plumbing and electrics and rebuilding a stud wall which had several different levels and BT trunking in it for the wiring.


You can survive washing-up in the bath for only so long. I've seen near divorces over this a few times, so I'd say get the sink and drainer, taps, etc. in ASAP because otherwise all hell might break out. Or is it just that you've done a "season ticket" deal with the local Chinese take-away and you're determined to try _everything_ on the menu...... :twisted: 



ByronBlack":2kvomkaq said:


> Even if I buy the cabinets, is it possible to buy these without doors? Basically, I need to make my own as we are looking at buying a Wickes's 'Take away' kitchen whilst they have 50% off, but they only supply 8 cabs with the kit and no seperate doors, so i'll need to make my own for the extra cabs I need to make.


There's no need to buy all the cabs at once or even from the same place, although it is a bit more consistent that way...... I'd still suggest buying the cabs and making your doors. 



ByronBlack":2kvomkaq said:


> Finally, the doors. I'll be making copies of the Wickes 'Edmonton' range which is vertical paneled doors. Is it best/affordable to do this in solid wood, or should I cheat and route grooves in MDF slabs to simulate the paneled look?


It isn't cheating! Personally I can't see the point in making a solid wood door then painting it - three times the material cost, twice the labour and because real wood moves probably won't look as good after 5 years, and in any case under a coat of paint, who'll know? (or even care?).......

There you are, as ever a completely unbiased opinion....... :roll: :wink: 

Scrit


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## jasonB (30 Apr 2007)

From the Wickes kitchens that I have fitted I seem to recall that they have 735mm tall carcases where most other makers have 720 carcases, just watch out if using two sources. 

I have got a pricelist for the Woodfit carcases  eg a 500 base unit in standard white is £36.06, colour match £40.44 and premium 48.97 all +VAT at trade.

Jason


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## Scrit (30 Apr 2007)

jasonB":2k4ii8lq said:


> From the Wickes kitchens that I have fitted I seem to recall that they have 735mm tall carcases where most other makers have 720 carcases, just watch out if using two sources.


Sure enough, especially if they're IKEA ones! I forgot to mention that it would be a good idea to check that standard/your choice of built-in appliances actually fit  

Scrit


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## Freetochat (30 Apr 2007)

I went through this process last year, and made my own cabinets. I used a board supplier that cut the sheets down to cabinet width sizes for me, and edged the MDC. All I had to do was cut to length groove and assemble. In my view, my cabinets are stronger then the ones I took out, or that I could buy. Put in an 18mm back instead of hardboard etc. The final point was to make the cabinets to fit, without resorting to fillers which I would have done if I had bought standard sizes. As to price, very little in it. But it was for myself, so a few extra pounds is not an issue compared to a commercial decision.


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## Dave S (30 Apr 2007)

ByronBlack":137frwm9 said:


> So, I've ripped half my kitchen out over the weekend. So I now have a nice 9ft worktop and cabs for the workshop - woot!
> 
> But, SWMBO being the demanding but lovable creature that she is has demanding I now fix this mess and install some nice shiny new cabinets and solid wood worktops. I also have to fit some wall cabinets where none have currently been.



Good grief! Nothing like planning _before_ you start!!! :shock: 

I've used the B&Q stuff before and it seems pretty solid to me. It uses wooden dowels plus cam&dowel fittings. I've always used some polyurethane glue as well. They use white hardboard for the back as standard - what I have done is put a thicker back in to improve the rigidity. I've made my own doors and trim as that's what you see. Once you open the door you just want something that's strong and easy to clean. IMO at least.  

I have also made my own cabinets. I'm aware that you have a Festool so cutting sheet goods should be easier for you then for me. However, I personally would shy away from making my own cabinets again unless the standard modules just didn't come in the sizes I needed. I'd always make the doors, though.

Whatever you choose, though, as Scrit says, you need to get cracking!

Dave


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## Jake (30 Apr 2007)

Those Woodfit prices are about the same as the company I'm going to use as soon as the damn builders are finished. They're here http://frontlinecabinets.co.uk/home/homeset.htm. 18mm backs, fully glued and doweled, and best of all, the sizes are just defaults - you can alter any dimension to suit for no extra cost (well, I assume you pay for the nearest size up or something).


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## Scrit (30 Apr 2007)

Freetochat":jjzwuw54 said:


> I used a board supplier that cut the sheets down to cabinet width sizes for me, and edged the MDC.


We have a supplier up in Oldham/Sheffield who does that - for anyone in the area they're called Hills Panel Products.



Freetochat":jjzwuw54 said:


> In my view, my cabinets are stronger then the ones I took out, or that I could buy. Put in an 18mm back instead of hardboard etc. The final point was to make the cabinets to fit, without resorting to fillers


Some cabinetmakers now supply solid 18mm back panels, but there's no reason why you couldn't fit your own braces, or for that matter cut down a standard size to a special - I've done that before now and it was still a lot faster than building from scratch. I am curious how yours were stronger than any you could buy, though. About the strongest bought-in carcasses I've ever seen/used were the Howdens carcasses - 18mm solid backs, glue and dowel construction and supplied ready assembled, also all the edgings were PVC, including the ones at the rear/undersides and did you know some firms are now doing 2mm or 3mm edgings for extra life? But for me the biggest plus of a pre-machined carcass is having someone else cope with drilling for the shelves, wirework and hinge plates.

I'm not trying to knock what you did, just trying to point out that there is a huge variation in specification of carcasses between suppliers - they ain't all the same

Scrit


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## Duncan (30 Apr 2007)

Try Howdens will supply cabs on there own - have used many times have a good service and they are not flat pack.

Duncan


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## lemonjeff (30 Apr 2007)

Freetochat":2z18dj8r said:


> I went through this process last year, and made my own cabinets. I used a board supplier that cut the sheets down to cabinet width sizes for me, and edged the MDC.



Freetochat who do you use to supply the boards?

Jeff


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## ByronBlack (1 May 2007)

Thanks for all the input!

After measuring up and then looking at the wickes stuff, I've come to the decision to get all the cabs from wickes and strengthen the backs myself. I'll use the doors they provide in their 'take away' package, but will make replica doors for the odd-sized cabs that i'll need to make to fit in a couple of corners and to cover the boiler.

It works out about £800 all in for the cabs, doors, shelves and custom units (mostly small open shelved end units).

I've decided to go for an Iroko worktop and i'll most probably do these myself. I need to make about 8metres worth of worktop and will use 2" rough sawn boards where i'll rip in to 100mm planks and edge-joint together to make up the full width.

I've been given a quote of £26+vat for a cubic foot of Iroko (2" rough) - does that seem a reasonable price? I'm finding it hard to work out how much the worktops will come to using that figure. Does anyone know how to convert cubic foot to board-feet or something easier to work with?


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## Jake (1 May 2007)

1 cubic foot = 12 feet of 12" x 1" timber (= 12 board feet), or 6 feet of 6" x 2" timber, or 9 feet of 4" x 2" timber.


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## Jake (1 May 2007)

Or, even easier

... without wastage (apart from the 30mm or so, depending on your desired worktop width)


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## Scrit (1 May 2007)

ByronBlack":3hptbfq2 said:


> I need to make about 8metres worth of worktop and will use 2" rough sawn boards where I'll rip in to 100mm planks and edge-joint together to make up the full width.


Just make sure that your dust extraction is very, very good. Iroko generates a lot of very fine peppery dust which is unpleasant to breathe. Some people also exhibit a sensitivity or mild allergy to it.



ByronBlack":3hptbfq2 said:


> I've been given a quote of £26+vat for a cubic foot of Iroko (2" rough) - does that seem a reasonable price?


Yes

Scrit


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## Freetochat (1 May 2007)

lemonjeff":2jcbs1cu said:


> Freetochat":2jcbs1cu said:
> 
> 
> > I went through this process last year, and made my own cabinets. I used a board supplier that cut the sheets down to cabinet width sizes for me, and edged the MDC.
> ...



I use Ipswich Plastics in Ipswich. I believe they deliver to your town!


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## Freetochat (1 May 2007)

Scrit":1z7mqsiw said:


> I'm not trying to knock what you did, just trying to point out that there is a huge variation in specification of carcasses between suppliers - they ain't all the same
> 
> Scrit



You are of course correct. My experience is based on B&Q, MFI, Magnet and one other (can't remember the name).

There was another decision point, in that I didn't find a lot of choice in colours, whereas the boards come in a large colour range.


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## ByronBlack (1 May 2007)

Whats the best way to finish the worktop? I was thinking of numerous coats of danish oil, but is there a better more robust option?

And finally, what should be my process of making these from getting the wood from the supplier as rough boards?

My initial thoughts were:

- Cut to just over length
- Rip into 100mm strips
- Run through jointer on 2 edges
- Leave in stick for a week or so
- Thickness to just over final thickness
- Glue up into final width panels
- Smooth to final thickness
- Apply Finish.

Does that sound about right, or are there better ways of doing things to avoid any cupping/bowing etc... or maybe something i've left out?

Oh, and finally. I was thinking of using an adjustable finger-joint router bit to help add strength to the edge-to-edge join, is that a good idea or unnessacary?


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## Shultzy (1 May 2007)

Jake":8eauhiyp said:


> 1 cubic foot = 12 feet of 12" x 1" timber (= 12 board feet), or 6 feet of 6" x 2" timber, or 9 feet of 4" x 2" timber.



Jake that second and third answers (6 feet of 6" x 2" timber, 9 feet of 4" x 2" timber) are only 1/2 cubic foot it should be 12 feet of 6" x 2" timber and 18 feet of 4" x 2" timber as the formula is (L"xW"xT")/144 = board feet, or (L"xW"xT")/1728 in cubic feet.


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## Jake (1 May 2007)

You are quite right, brainfart on my part.


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## George_N (1 May 2007)

ByronBlack":3etmr5nz said:


> Oh, and finally. I was thinking of using an adjustable finger-joint router bit to help add strength to the edge-to-edge join, is that a good idea or unnessacary?



Biscuits would make aligning the pieces easy. The commercial stuff I've seen uses finger type glue joints for end grain to end grain joints.


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## DomValente (1 May 2007)

ByronBlack":b03q5bny said:


> Whats the best way to finish the worktop? I was thinking of numerous coats of danish oil, but is there a better more robust option?
> 
> And finally, what should be my process of making these from getting the wood from the supplier as rough boards?
> 
> ...


 On the third step I run one side only on the planer and parallel the second side on the table saw just taking a mm of otherwise you don't know if you're planning parallel.

Dom


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## spadge (1 May 2007)

DomValente":36u9vvck said:


> ByronBlack":36u9vvck said:
> 
> 
> > Whats the best way to finish the worktop? I was thinking of numerous coats of danish oil, but is there a better more robust option?
> ...



On the third step I would run one edge on the surfacer then (as its only 100mm wide) run it through the thicknesser to get the second edge square and parallel.

More than one way to skin a cat.

Grahame


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## OJ (1 May 2007)

Agree with the guys above, joint one edge only and then rip to paralllel to finish. Then pass sawn edge over jointer. If there is cupping, then sorting this comes first. Machine with points of cup on the table rather than the centre on the table. Then hold flat edge tight against fence to square first edge etc etc. If you are biscuiting, then ask yourself if you need the stock all the same thickness, just joint from the top down. Old lab bench type worktops are not always uniform thickness, just flat and square. This may save yourself an operation as you might want your top to float a little over the carcasses. This way you could pack as required to account for top thicknesses and floor irregularities. You may also like a shadow gap rather than a tight fit along the front.
OJ


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## DomValente (1 May 2007)

More than one way to skin a cat.

Grahame[/quote]

Always


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## Scrums (1 May 2007)

Iroko ....... I personally would run a mile, several actually.

There's only one way to find out if you're allergic to the stuff - unfortunately that's to use it !

A bad reaction is open weepy sores on the 'creases' in your hands, between your fingers and swollen weepy eyes, constant sneezing and sniffles. It really is not nice stuff if you find it doesn't like you.

How's about Beech or maybe Oak?....a bit more, but in the case of Oak and an abundance of 'character' Oak - not too much more.

Chris.


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## Paul Chapman (1 May 2007)

ByronBlack":1wdisjxe said:


> Oh, and finally. I was thinking of using an adjustable finger-joint router bit to help add strength to the edge-to-edge join, is that a good idea or unnessacary?



I've never used one of those cutters but on commercially-made stuff that I've seen or bought where those cutters have been used, the joints have been very poor and have sometimes failed. Maybe they were just made badly :? In my view, if you want to use something, biscuits or a plywood loose tongue are the best.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## engineer one (1 May 2007)

bb, i tend to look at things differently from most here, because in the last couple of years i have been involved in the design from a users point of view, not as someone making my living from it.

as for the base units, i would tend to go with pre made ones. because of the time constraints, and the jigging needed to do it yourself for only one kitchen. i am pretty sure that b&q still do two thicknesses of mdf cases, 
15 and 18. always go for the 18, it ain't that much more, but will last tons longer. add extra rear x members to strengthen. as scrit says 18 mm behind the slide in, top and bottom, will make a major difference to the strength. 

again, personally make every thing in the base units on shelves it is a pita to bend down to search for things. either behind doors, or separate drawer front. if you like the busy look.

as for the top what effect do you want??? have you checked the costs of using even rough wood that you process against worktops that you buy?
it makes for scary reading, and also time factor again. if you work the design properly, you can use offies of work top if you stick to a standard colour.

otherwise go for re-cycled wood, and join that together at least it will be more stable,or you could always make your own butchers block out of short end grain, but you need to support it on a base.

personally i would only go for granite or marble in a very restricted part of the kitchen it to is a pita to keep clean and secure, and can stain like a b.
then you have to use acidic things like hydrogen chloride to clean up, not good. 

hope that also helps
:? 
paul :wink:


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## ByronBlack (1 May 2007)

Guy's - thats a lot of good info/tips.

I'll have to do the second parallel operation on the thicknesser as I don't own a tablesaw. (Unless I can convince SMWBO I really need the festool CMS).

SWMBO is quite taken with the Iroko look so I don't have much choice, unless I use something like beech and stain it - not sure how possible that is - anyone done that?

I'm definitly going to go for the discounted wickes cabs and strengthen with solid 18mm backs.

Paul - I did check the cost of already made Iroko tops and apart from the time factor it works out about half the price if I make them myself. However, there is an added cost involved for me to process these as i'll need to purchase a decent dust extractor and a biscuit jointer and a bunch of clamps.

I've discounted cheaper laminate worktops and granite - we are sold on solid wood. The majority of the kitchen is quite cheap stuff so we want a good set of worktops to 'up' the overall quality.

If I don't finger-joint the end-to-end grain joints, how else can this be done to get a nice strong and tight join within the worktop?


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## engineer one (1 May 2007)

bb no problems., thought for the day though have you checked the food safety with iroko???? any toxins etc that might transfer to foods???
personally i don't know, but would think it worth checking before you buy.

as for end to end join, i would think actually that a loose tenon would be even better, just run the biscuit jointer straight across and then insert a piece of ply. this should ensure no "shadow lines"

as for upping the quality have to say that after about a year most worktops look like cr*p and are untidy, so you won't notice. better to improve the handles and doors.
:roll: 
paul :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (2 May 2007)

ByronBlack":2r2n7w16 said:


> If I don't finger-joint the end-to-end grain joints, how else can this be done to get a nice strong and tight join within the worktop?



Byron, I'm now a bit confused as to how you are proposing to make these worktops :? Originally I thought you were going to prepare the wood to the length of the tops and join them together. However, as you are now talking about end-to-end grain joints within the worktop, I assume you are proposing to use shorter pieces with staggered joints. If so, you will need to cramp them in their length as well as their width as you go along. From your original post, it sounds as though at least one of the worktops is 9ft long. I reckon this could all get a bit unwieldly and could cause you a lot of problems. If I were in your position, I think I would save myself a lot of work and potential problems and buy the tops already made up.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Scrit (2 May 2007)

ByronBlack":20cmd5j4 said:


> Whats the best way to finish the worktop? I was thinking of numerous coats of danish oil, but is there a better more robust option?


You have chosen an oily wood for your worktop - a timber which can give problems in finishing. A worktop is a working item and not just for show and therefore needs to be something with a repairable finish. To my mind that makes oils of some description the only sensible finish.



ByronBlack":20cmd5j4 said:


> .........Leave in stick for a week or so


But where? In the shed, or in the environment it will be living in subsequently? If there is any major variation in RH between the two you'll potentially have problems down the line



ByronBlack":20cmd5j4 said:


> SWMBO is quite taken with the Iroko look so I don't have much choice, unless I use something like beech and stain it - not sure how possible that is - anyone done that?


I don't think it would turn out all that consistent - and you're not going to save a lot doing it, either. I've seen it done with oak and it didn't look right to me. I'd also be concerned with any potential problems down the line if the finish ever needed to be repaired.



ByronBlack":20cmd5j4 said:


> I did check the cost of already made Iroko tops and apart from the time factor it works out about half the price if I make them myself. However, there is an added cost involved for me to process these as i'll need to purchase a decent dust extractor and a biscuit jointer and a bunch of clamps.


Just how do you intend to get a consistent thickness over a 9ft x 24in run, though, without access to a 24in wide thicknesser (what the factories use)? My experience (with the one and only worktop I ever tried to fabricate) is that you'll get variations in the thickness across it's length and width so you need to be prepared for quite a bit of hand planing, i.e. jack plane _then_ smoother not just a couple of passes with a smoother. And iroko isn't pleasant stuff to plane, IMHO. Apart from the peppery dust it can be ruddy hard work without a power planer. Have you considered that you're also going to need a 9ft long solid bench to cramp up this lot? There will be a tendency for the worktop to bow slightly along it's length if you attempt the glue-up on trestles. 



ByronBlack":20cmd5j4 said:


> If I don't finger-joint the end-to-end grain joints, how else can this be done to get a nice strong and tight join within the worktop?


Butt joint with a loose spline across the joint. After all finger joints are a modern manufacturing solution and I for one find it slightly farcical that folk want to emulate what was introduced as a continuous production technique meant to allow the use of short offcuts..... As Paul says if you end to end joint you'll need to ensure that yoeu can end to end cramp - so add some cramp heads and bars to yout list. 

In any case if you look at the best quality _manufactured_ worktops you'll find they generally use wide staves which run the full length of the worktop without any end to end joints. I'd say the solution is to buy 10ft iroko and use 4in to 6in wide staves.....

One last point, Byron, do you have a helper (or helpers) to work with you on this and in particular to help ytou install it? A 9ft iroko worktop is a very heavy item indeed, so you won't be carrying it on your own.

Scrit


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## ByronBlack (2 May 2007)

OK then! All superb points from you as usual scrit, and the two pauls.. after speaking with SWMBO and working it out from a cost and time perspective we have ditched the idea of the Iroko tops and will instead search out some cheaper wood alternatives or if worse comes to worse a wood 'effect' to put in situ until we can afford a better option.

I think with my limited skills and workshop it's going to be hard making 3 2.8m worktops to an acceptable standard. Maybe in the future though, but I dont think on reflection i'm upto that particular job.

Thanks for pointing out the practicalities - you fella's always do a sterling job of giving me a clarity of thought.

We'll be doing the kitchen in three stages, so we won't be without an oven or sink for more than a day, so it should be relatively stress free! 

Thanks Chaps!


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## billybuntus (2 May 2007)

has anybody tried 

http://www.diy-kitchens.com/acatalog/Index_Home.html ?


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## ByronBlack (2 May 2007)

Thanks for the link billy - their prices are still more expensive than the cabs from wickes, and their site gives me motion sickness with all the moving tat on the frontpage!


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## engineer one (2 May 2007)

you're right bb, they certainly are involved in the great. let's blind em with pikkies viewpoint.

for me, web sites should be legible and easy to understand in the body, with the clever stuff on the periphery or accessible by choice, not "in yer face" :lol: 

interesting that wickes are cheaper.

i still wonder though why in the uk we make cabinets that do not need seperate plinths. i am always convinced that it is easier to level over a long distance than each unit. :? 

paul :wink:


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## Scrit (2 May 2007)

engineer one":3u9f6h8v said:


> I still wonder though why in the uk we make cabinets that do not need seperate plinths. I am always convinced that it is easier to level over a long distance than each unit. :?


From an installer's point of view it is probably much faster to install separate cabs on adjuster feet than to build a fixed plinth on site, especially where you have gaps in the cab runs to accommodate built-under washing machines, etc. I can't say I know of many fitters who'd willingly carry a folding table saw in the van..... (says the man who lugs a flip-over saw round with him, "just in case" :roll: ).

There are, however, another couple of practical reasons for our way of doing things; if an MFC plinth facia clipped to plastic legs gets soaked and blows it is cheap, quick and simple to replace, unlike replacing a blown fixed plinth but more to the point, have you ever had to clean-up a kitchen after a flood? Our way of doing things means that you pull the plinth off, use a wet and dry vac to pick-up the majority of the water then wipe down and leave to dry. Try that with a fixed plinth :evil: The fact that the plinth front is removeable also allows access to flexible feeds (washers, dish washers, etc), levelling feet, and so forth which can make life easier when trying to level-up, install or remove a built-in washer with a door on the front for example. Also if you ever need to jack down a single blown carcass (such as that beneath a sink) or pull-out a single carcass from a run of cabs to do a plumbing repair to pipwrk behind the cabs the wind-up feet are a godsend - providing you haven't got too clever with how you join the cabs together in the first place  . 

Now where's that T-shirt?

Scrit


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## Shultzy (2 May 2007)

What puts me off cabinet adjusters is their hight. At a minimum of 135mm I would lose 60mm of cupboard space as my existing plinth is only 75mm high.


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## Paul Chapman (2 May 2007)

Shultzy":3eslcgur said:


> What puts me off cabinet adjusters is their hight. At a minimum of 135mm I would lose 60mm of cupboard space as my existing plinth is only 75mm high.



You can get them in three different heights here

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Scrit (2 May 2007)

Shultzy":4d14dg3k said:


> What puts me off cabinet adjusters is their hight. At a minimum of 135mm I would lose 60mm of cupboard space as my existing plinth is only 75mm high.


It is possible to get 100mm high adjuter feet, but the reason they are the height they are (nominally 150mm) is because standard cabs (and therefore off the shelf doors) are 720mm high and most washing machines need 850mm or so to go under a worktop, hence the "standard" height of 870mm or so to the tops of the cabs (150 + 720 = 870). It is also possible to saw up to 50mm off many adjuster feet using a very fine tooth sawblade (or better yet a Nobex saw) because the screw foot adjuster is at the bottom end of the leg and the top end isa just pushed into a simple hole in the mounting bracket.

Scrit


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## LyNx (2 May 2007)

> At a minimum of 135mm I would lose 60mm of cupboard space as my existing plinth is only 75mm high.



Wind the foot into the leg, then cut off the amount you don't need. I did this on mine as i only want 65mm high plinths. Easy with a hacksaw :wink:


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## engineer one (2 May 2007)

strangely scrit i agree with you it is just the whole concept of flattening one cabinet against another. both you and i know how difficult it is to guarantee
getting 2440 worth of units flat and square individually at say 600,300 etc.

personally i think it would be better to design a kitchen so that water overflows are captured in a more sensible and safe way, you know washing machine water capture things etc, 

however i do understand the removal of blown cabs etc, so i guess it is just a pipe dream, also an economic one. :lol: :lol: :roll: 

do you have a spare t shirt :twisted: :twisted: 

paul :wink: 

whose final word to bb is again make the drawers and doors special to make your kitchen stand out, cause whatever you do the next house owners will rip it out, so why waste all that time and effort on the worktop.?? :roll: :? and as has been said elsewhere remember even a 1000 length of worktop is b****y heavy for you and the wife to move.


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## ByronBlack (3 May 2007)

Paul - thanks for the tips. We have decided to go with a cheaper worktop and will fit decent drawers. We only have one unit that has drawers so these will have good blum fittings. The doors - these are coming with the cabinets as part of the wickes' deal so i'll be using those. I'm going up there tonight to check them out and see what they are like, the look nice enough but need to check out the fittings etc - I could always retro-fit some soft closers and some decent handles to these.

I have a couple of other questions regarding appliances. How do they fit into cabinets? I'm assuming the cab has no base and just slips over the appliance on the top and two sides? Also, are appliances ususally the right depth to fit into a cab/under a worktop and how are the kickplates/plinths catered for?


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## Scrit (3 May 2007)

ByronBlack":ay35y30z said:


> I have a couple of other questions regarding appliances. How do they fit into cabinets? I'm assuming the cab has no base and just slips over the appliance on the top and two sides? Also, are appliances usually the right depth to fit into a cab/under a worktop and how are the kickplates/plinths catered for?


How they fit depends on what they are. Most washers, dryers and dish washers just slot into a 450mm, 500mm or 600mm *gap* between cabs and have the door hung on special hinges or fittings. This means you'll need a 35mm hinge boring bit either for the router (Wealden Tools) or in a drill press - don't try using one by hand. The normal approach is to pack-up and jack-up the appliance up so that its top rests against the underside of the worktop - I normally use the cut-outs/offcuts from the worktop to do this. Many such appliances can be screwed into the cabs on either side or into the (underside of) worktop to stop them "walking" in the event of vibration. Check the heights of these appliances as they'll generally specify something like minimum height underworktop of 830 to 850mm. If installing anything which can generate steam when the door is opened (e.g. washing machine or dishwasher with drop-down door) the underside edge of the worktop should be protected by applying a strip of self-adhesive ally foil, like gas fitters use (try Screwfix). This will prevent the steam from delaminating the worktop at the edge of the post-forming. Most insert appliances require 550 to 570mm depth of carcass, so your services (electric, water, waste outfall) should be positioned behind an adjacent cabinet - there's no space for them directly behind the appliance itself. Plinths are normally just run across the front and clipped to the legs of cabs on either side. Drop door appliances will need a cut-out to be put in the top of the plinth, but the details will be in the instructions.

The other type of appliances sit inside a special appliance cabinet which is supplied sans back. These include built-in ovens, built-in fridges and built-in freezers. They are almost always 564mm wide (to fit inside a 600mm cab with 18mm walls) and the appliance is normally screwed to the front edges of the cab, although one or two firms like Hotpoint do built-in ovens which require a 600mm *gap* between adjacent cabinets and where you install a pair of angle plates attached to the cabs on either side then slide the oven in. They can be a royal pain to deal with.

The last (related) thing to note is that drop-down ovebs shoul ideally have aluminium heat deflector shields applied around them. These small strips of metal will deflect the blast of hot air from the oven when the door is dropped and improve the working life of the adjacent cabinet doors and the worktop above. They are essential in kitchens with vinyl- or foil-wrapped doors. And talking about heat have you sorted out how you are going to position cabs above/around the hob?

It all boils down to the fact that you need to know what appliances you're going to have *before* you order your cabs.....



engineer one":ay35y30z said:


> ...it is just the whole concept of flattening one cabinet against another.


The job requires two spirit levels, a 1m builders level and a smaller torpedo level and is actually quite quick once you get the knack.



engineer one":ay35y30z said:


> ...personally I think it would be better to design a kitchen so that water overflows are captured in a more sensible and safe way, you know washing machine water capture things etc,


In the USA they have overflow drainer trays just like that, I think because they have a lot of wooden houses, and I wish we had them here. But we don't so I'll stick with what we have and work accordingly.

Scrit


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## ByronBlack (3 May 2007)

Scrit, thats superb! Thanks for the explanations. Luckily i'll be re-using the appliances that we already have so it should be fairly straight forward to cross-reference your post and work out a solution.

The only other thing that is causing me a few problems (mentally) at the moment is the waste to the washing machine and dishwasher. Currently these are situatied near the sink but I want to move them about 10ft across the kitchen to the back wall - how difficult is it to move the waste pipe (I might have to run it outside the house and back in) and what is the minimum angle needed to carry the waste out?

Sorry for all the questions, it's the first time i've looked into a kitchen project.


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## engineer one (3 May 2007)

byron. be careful with moving waste pipes.

generally people instal their dishwasher and washing machine around the sink cause it's easier to settle all the simple things, and you can of course get connections that go into the u bend to allow the waste to flow pretty easily.

in the old days, and considering how long these machines live, many of us have the same problem, the idea was to dump the water in a long upright pipe to ensure that when it was ejected from the machine it did not overwhelm the u bend and push water back into the sink. remember that the water flow is not constant, but girt great lumps every so often so there is quite a lot of air pressure to overcome. 

but look at it a different way. where are the external waste pipes, how near the back wall. talk to a PROPER plumber, or the local council/water company, and see if you can plumb into that. i would not suggest going out and back. try to get a completely new connection outside, not sure that you can tap into the roof down pipes, but maybe another down pipe is closer.

scrit i surrender, of course you are right we have to work with what is here, just after all this time we could hope for more thought from the manufacturers about the biggest problem with all machines which use water in such large quantities. :?  :roll: 

paul :wink:


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## j (3 May 2007)

BB
10ft does sound like a very long way, you'd be hard pushed to get much of a slope on that, unless you're fitting the machines ontop of the work surface  (I have seen this done with a dishwasher, but not a washing machine)

I'm not sure how much slope you actually need, as the waste of these machines should be pumped out, you just don't want debris to settle in this long length. Soap scum can build up to be quite solid.

As to the actual fitting of waste pipe, it's relatively simple. I used screw type fittings when I plumbed in a washing machine last. Just push fit and tighten the colar.


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## lurker (3 May 2007)

Byron,

Just a quick question
You say Wickes carcases are MDF - can you confirm?
I thought everyone used chipboard

Reason I ask is that I want to build a nice set of drawers to our fitted kitchen (built by me 15 years ago with Magnet stuff). And want a decent standard carcase to do it with. 

By the way - you agonising over tops.
This might be old fashioned now, but back then, I built a big island top (8' x8') from 18mm marine ply and covered it with very good quality floor tiles ( not Barns rubbish) plus a wooden fluted edge. Still gets many compliments and after 15 years hard work looks just as good. One tile got cracked and it took a bit of getting out, but you cant see the repair.


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## ByronBlack (3 May 2007)

I've given a couple of plumbers a call and some of said don't do it, others have said you can but it will be expensive etc etc.. so maybe I need to revise that idea ;-)

Lurker - i'm not sure I did say that wickes cabs were MDF? They are MFC like most others. I think you might be getting mixed up when I said I needed to make some replica doors for custom sized cabinets and I was going to use MDF to match the design of the wickes' cabinet doors..

I'm going to see the kitchen tonight so i'll report back on the material and build quality.

Nice idea about the worktops. My mum's place has tiles on all the worksurfaces - it's stood up well but the grout issue puts me off a bit, not really the most hygenic.


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## engineer one (3 May 2007)

broken tiles :? 

great place to consider the option of buying one of the fein multi tools :twisted: :twisted: (sorry for the plug, but it is a great tool ain't it roger?)

then you have found a tool that really does so much more :roll: :roll: 

interesting thought, the latest axminster flyer re-introduces the roto zip.
no cheaper than last time when it failed to save the uk importer, are they sure???? :? don't think we build enough dry walled houses over here.

paul :wink:


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## ByronBlack (3 May 2007)

Paul your not so subtle shove down the slope has failed i'm afraid! I've looked at the fein and decided it would be a waste of money espeically as I have my eye on some festool-candy 

In all seriousness. Money is the biggest contributing factor with the kitchen hence the requirement to go with wickes 50% discounted 'take away' kitchen. So considering all the fantastic (as usual) information, i'm going to go for a cheapish laminate wood effect worktop, keep the appliances where they are now and build it in three stages so as not to upset the home-life balance wiht regards to cooking and washing.

I'll post some pics of the project as I get through it. I first need to get up a floor that is made from outdoor concrete tiles and cemented down!


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## lurker (3 May 2007)

Byron,

A little tip you might consider when making your off the peg kitchen a bit special.

Most people set the bench top depth to the depth of bought tops (depth of carcase plus a little bit.

I mounted my tops to the walls (carcases do not fully support top and can be pulled out indivudually).

I also left a gap about 40mm between wall & back of the top.
Fitted a contrasting length of wood (actually reclaimed "mahogany" windowsill) over the rear edge and this gap - looks like a very large internal corner bead. Not sure if I've explained that very well.

Looks different - bit more space behind cupboards to run wall services - stops damp settling between the wall and edge of the top - protects the corner at the back of the top - saves matching the dead straight top to the inevitable wonky wall.


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## Scrit (3 May 2007)

ByronBlack":1cacpxwq said:


> The only other thing that is causing me a few problems (mentally) at the moment is the waste to the washing machine and dishwasher. Currently these are situated near the sink but I want to move them about 10ft across the kitchen to the back wall - how difficult is it to move the waste pipe (I might have to run it outside the house and back in) and what is the minimum angle needed to carry the waste out?


I agree with others that you are probably getting near the limit. The issue isn't so much the drop required to handle the solids, it's the height of the stand pipe above the P-trap in the waste outfall you'll need to ensure that the dishwasher and washing machine don't back up overflow the pipe and so flood the kitchen. Some machines can pump out at a heck of a rate and will need a good 450 to 500mm of stand pipe height - that doesn't leave you with a lot of drop to play with when you take the P-trap and curvature of the flexi waste pipe from the appliance into account. That's one of the reasons it is normal to install waste water water producers near to the sink. The other is pure ergonomics. Consider the working triangle of sink - fridge - cooker which needs to be no more than 10ft (3m) on each side for a good working kitchen; I reckon the same is true if dish washing and/or laundry facilities are incorporated. You really need the dishwasher right next to the sink so that you can rinse off the muckiest stuff before loading it into the machine. Similarly for laundry you don't want the washer too far away from the sink so that heavy, waterlogged, pre-soaked or scrubbed items don't have to be dragged all around the kitchen, dripping all the while before you load them into the washing machine. If you keep the washers near to the sink then it should be possible to plumb-in the wastes through something like a 1-1/2 or two bowl kit with single or even dual waste spigots (although in all probability your sink will come with provision for at least one such connection):







All you need to add another is a tee-piece and a waste spigot adaptor. These are, on the whole, much less likely to flood that the traditional open P-trap affair:






(Screwfix #18640)

There's also the issue of the building regs on this if you go outside the house, Byron. My understanding is that if you go outside then you either have to discharge into an outside grate or you need to discharge into a main waste down-pipe. You may not re-enter the house with waste water. Although I'm more than happy if someone who knows the regs better wants to correct that statement. Similarly if you have to break into an existing underground drain then that requires Building Control to get involved, doesn't it?



ByronBlack":1cacpxwq said:


> Sorry for all the questions, it's the first time i've looked into a kitchen project.


You don't say? :wink:

BTW if you haven't got one already, consider getting yourself a PVC pipe cutter for handling the 40mm PVCu wastes:






£5.35 or so from places like Tool Station and money well spent, IMHO

So, finally, have you decided on whether or not you are going push-fit, solvent fit or compression fit for the wastes (which I assume will be 40mm) and on your water pipe work are you using compression fit or a solder jointed fit like Yorkshire fittings or end feeds? Whichever it is your design needs to allow access to the mains water stopcock (if it is inside the kitchen, many are) and you do need to incorporate water isolators for all water consuming appliances as well as the hot and cold water to the sink (that's a Water Council directive, apparently)



ByronBlack":1cacpxwq said:


> ....I'm going to go for a cheapish laminate wood effect worktop.....


Do yourself a favour, Byron. If you can get a Duropal (Pfleiderer) or Prima (Formica) 38/40mm worktop at a reasonable price then go that way. The better quality worktops are generally a lot easier to joint well as they tend to have less of an across the width dip in them. When they are delivered put them in the garage or get them in the house right away as leaving them outside in warm weather like today or on days when the RH of the air is high will simply create a lot of problems for you when you do install.

Scrit


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## ByronBlack (3 May 2007)

Scrit, I have to say - loads of excellent detail. Just a shame it's wasted on me (no pun intended) I understoond maybe about 5% of that at the most  Which leads me to think i'll just leave the appliances well alone 

Appreciate the tip on the worktops, i'll see what wickes have got - chances are the tops will be fitted on the day of arrival (since we are doing it in stages).

I can see now why kitchen fitters are hard to get a hold of (down here) and expensive


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## engineer one (3 May 2007)

byron, actually the shove down the slope was not totally aimed at you :twisted: it was in regard to the comment about removing broken or chipped tiles inside an already tiled area. have to say the fein makes a really good job of getting the tile out without chipping those surrounding.
it is also brilliant for removing the nails behind skirting, and cutting breathing holes in same, and as for sanding well i could go on, but enough of the plugs, it is just a great bit of kit to me :lol: :lol: 

scrit how about that you have shown the picture of a tool i got given ages ago, and still have never figured out how to use it.
what do the bits inside the handle do?? and how do you open and use it?  

paul :wink:


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## Scrit (3 May 2007)

engineer one":3h8cqibd said:


> ....how about that you have shown the picture of a tool I got given ages ago, and still have never figured out how to use it.
> What do the bits inside the handle do?? and how do you open and use it?


Well, I'll admit to having a slightly different one. The one I showed was about as cheap as they get. I have this orange one (£11.60 + the dreaded):






Somewhere at the top or side of that pipe cutter there will be a little botton to release the jaws. Stick the open jaws around a pipe, make sure that the ratchet device isnide the handles meshes up then start squeezing. The closing action is a ratchet action and at the end of the cut you'll need to open the jaws to remove the pipe. Beats the you know what out of attacking pipes with a saw because the ends are clean cut and (with care) actually square. So what do you get for the extra dosh? Ally body, body holds the pipe a bit better and a slightly better ratchet action. End of Advert :lol: 

Scrit


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## engineer one (3 May 2007)

well scrit thanks but i'm b*****ed if i can find a button which is what i would expect. basically, you seem to have three pivot points which can be seen in the photo you provide of the rollston, but nothing seems to move or slide, or do anything which makes a normal(ok me :lol: man) think that it would do.

ihave even tried to access the rollston web site and find the instructions and could not. anyone got any info that would make this a useful piece of equipment, ???? :? 

paul :wink:


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## misterfish (4 May 2007)

I've got a similar looking cutter that I've used quite a bit for 15 and 22mm pipe as well as larger waste. If I remember rightly you open the handles as wide as they go (can be a bit stiff at the end) and the cutting blade will open. Then just put pipe into jaw and squeeze handles together, each squeeze moves the ratchet along one notch and gradually closes the jaws and cuts cleanly through the pipe.

If you want I could do some photos.

MisterFish


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## engineer one (4 May 2007)

well how about that misterfish, that is the answer. i have only had the damn thing for about a year, and thought what a waste???


now however it makes sense, my only excuse can be that it came with no packaging or instructions :?  

thanks

paul :wink:


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## Trumpet (5 May 2007)

I've been a lurker here for a few weeks ByronBlack has steered me towards the Triton (MOF variant - many thanks, I think I'm going to much prefer the plunge action and wouldn't have made the effort to go and try one out) but I'm with engineer one on the Fein.

I purchased the Triton and Fein a couple a weeks ago, thus far I have used the Fein for grinding out rust from around the van's screen before spraying, cuttting the mortice bolt of a locked door - expensive but quick fix - I will find a way of making a cutting blade fixture, quickly relieving a vinyl floor of mastic sealed edge and removing deeply-recessed glass panes from a window frame fixed with old, very hard putty. The Triton thus far is still pristine. :wink: 

Engineer one - was also looking at the Rotozip but like the look of the mini Bosch router - sold as the Colt in the US.


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## RogerS (5 May 2007)

Byron....have you seen this topic re wood worktops vs other materials and discusses the hassle in keeping wooden worktops looking pristine throughout their working life?

Re...drainage bits and pieces....I gave up using those 'orrible white things from the likes of Osma et al...large, clunky and always get in the way. Instead I use a much more elegant system from Italy that allow you to fit the waste traps etc well out of the way at the back of the cabinet and which take up much less front-to-back depth then the clunky white ones. if you're interested I can try and locate the manufacturers' name for you.

There is also this linkon fitting waste pipes, slopes etc.


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## devonwoody (5 May 2007)

Kitchen cabinet pricing. Whatever price (even 50% off prices) ~Dont buy unless unless you can get 50%off ( even the 50% ones).
The trade sell to tradesmen at reduced prices.


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## ByronBlack (5 May 2007)

Well, I've bought half the kitchen. I went to wickes last night and picked up about 6 cabinets which will go on my west wall and an appliance cover for the tumble dryer. We've decided to leave the other appliances where they are so we don't have to touch the plumbing. Maybe next year when we have more cash we'll think about getting a plumber in to maybe move them..

Average prices of the cabs are:

500m Base = £34
1000m Base = £42 (wall £40)

Appliance door =£26

Retrofit Soft close fixtures (bag of 5) £10

Our entire order came to just over £200 which I think is quite good value for a 'take away' solution.

The cabs themselves are 15mm MFC with hardboard back - i'll be putting in a solid back alround from the remnants of the current kitchen cabinets and doors - might as well recycle  They are supplied 4 adjustable feet and are held together with dowels and knockdown joints. I'll be putting together with glue and carcass screws to add strength.

The doors are 18mm MDF which have the 'panels' routed with a v-cutter. (very easy to replicate which Is what I wanted). However, the finish is like a very thin vinyl veneer which gives a very fine textured surface, so i'm not sure how best to match this if I make some of my own custom sized doors - any ideas?

Tonight i'll be fitting the wall cabinets (depending on time) what is the best way to fix these? Those little white blocks, or french cleat?

By the way, the price for the cabs includes the door, handle and hings.


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## Scrit (5 May 2007)

ByronBlack":3rur7u7b said:


> The doors are 18mm MDF which have the 'panels' routed with a v-cutter. (very easy to replicate which Is what I wanted). However, the finish is like a very thin vinyl veneer which gives a very fine textured surface, so i'm not sure how best to match this if I make some of my own custom sized doors - any ideas?


The finish is probably what is called "vinyl wrap" where a very thin sheet of vinyl is sprayed with a thin coating of PUR glue (a form of heat-activated polyurethanse glue, i.e. hot melt) then heat/vacuum stretched and bonded simultaneuosly onto an MDF blank. The MDF blank is normally faced on one side with pre-applied melamine. You can't buy this stuff, so just use MR-MDF instead. It is actually quite difficult to match the surface lustre of these doors, possibly Terry Smart would like to comment about using melamine lacquer which is the nearest match I can think of in terms of surface appearance providing the MDF surface is well primed with a high solids undercoat.



ByronBlack":3rur7u7b said:


> Tonight i'll be fitting the wall cabinets (depending on time) what is the best way to fix these? Those little white blocks, or french cleat?


Do you mean fix the backs in position or hang the cabinets? 

If it's fix the backs in position I'd suggest screwing through the sides of the cabinets with black carcass screws (or failing those Spax or Reissers, #7 x 1-1/2in or the metric equivalent approx. 3.5 or 4 x 35 or 40mm). This will leave three screws visible at the ends of the runs so another solution needs to be found there such as concealment caps:







pocket hole screws down that edge of the back screwed into the sides of the cab from the rear. An alternative might be either to rebate the new backs so that you can re-use the existing grooves or re-route the existing grooves wider to accommodate the thicker backs. Make sure that the the extra thickness of the new backs is accommodated on the inside of the cab so that the positioning of the rear face of the back relative to the wall is unchanged. A spot of glue in the grooves will make for a more rigid carcass, especially if you can leave it clamped up for a few hours before hanging the cab. I'd also add a spot of glue to the carcass dowels when you are assembling.

For hanging the cabs should come with hangers and plates like these from Woodfit:











Just ensure that you notch-out the top corners of the new backs to accommodate the hangers before you install them and fix the hanging brackets to the cab sides before applying the top. What type of wall are you going into? Is it solid? 

BTW, where do you need the mod blocks? :? 

Scrit


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## Keith Smith (5 May 2007)

> I'll be putting together with glue and carcass screws to add strength.



Sometimes the MFC isn't dense enough to take screws well and putting extra screws in ends up weakening the cabinet.

I use an adhesive/sealant in the joint (Gripfill max or Sikaflex SBK), this is thick stuff so the cabinet will need cramping together; I don't rely on the dowel pegs pulling it up.

This makes an incredibly strong cabinet and as all the open ends are completely sealed far more durable.

Keith


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## ivan (5 May 2007)

A fall of greater thatn 1 in 100 is usually taken to be the limit if you want to keep solids and liquids flowing together (greater fall can leave the solids behind) This is the figure used in agriculture, and I bet the building regs have one for domestic drainage.


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## jasonB (5 May 2007)

For small waste pipe (32,40 & 50mm) you should use a fall of 2.5 degrees. This is why elbows and teesare actually 92.5 degrees and not 90.

So for a 3.0m length of pipe you need a drop of 130mm, which provided the invert where your pipe exits the wall is not too high should not be a problem. To be safe I would incorporate a rodding point at the end of the run although if the appliance trap is a compression fitting that can easily be romoved to rod the pipe.

I would not recommend going into a rainwater pipe unless you can confirm that it goes into the main drainage and not into a soakaway/watercoarse.

Ivan standard fall on a 110mm drain is 1:40

Jason

Jason


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## ByronBlack (5 May 2007)

Scrit - I meant hanging the cabinets, so thanks for the info regarding that. And good info regarding the finish. I'll look into that lacquer. It doesn't need to be 100% as i'll mostly be making a few thin doors to cover small gaps and a couple of narrow cabinets in dark corners.

I haven't unpacked the cabs yet so didn't realise they were supplied with brackets, i'll check that out. When you talk about the black carcass screws - are these the same as black drywall screws? The reason I ask is when I was in wickes they only had tubs of black drywall screws and none labelled as carcass screws..

Not sure what you mean by 'mod' blocks - I assume you mean the little lego-brick style thingy, if so - thats what I thought the cabs were hung with (as my mum's kitchen has those - but that is about 20 years old now).

The wall is solid, it's the dividing wall between me and the neighbours.

Keith - thanks for the recommendation on the glue. I was going to use regular titebond but I think i'll get some gripfill as i've seen that mentioned a lot in regards to DIY jobs.


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## jasonB (5 May 2007)

Byron, these are the type of screw, Drywalls are to fine a thread to bite into MFC. I tend to drill 4mm clearance and countersink, and in 15mm board would drill a 3mm pilot in the edge of the second board.

Jason


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## Scrit (5 May 2007)

ByronBlack":2hmyuedg said:


> When you talk about the black carcass screws - are these the same as black drywall screws? The reason I ask is when I was in wickes they only had tubs of black drywall screws and none labelled as carcass screws.


No, not the same at all. Drywall screws tend to crack the surface of MFC when you flush them under and they are prone to shearing in MFC because the shanks are too thin. Carcass screws are very specific and you may need to go to a proper ironmongers to get them, but you just pop a start point with a n awl then screw them in flush and they seem to work well that way. Assuming that you can't get any, however, Screwfix sell Spax and Reissers and B&Q do Spax - not as good because you should pilot them first, but they will hold MFC well and they're bl**dy good screws.



ByronBlack":2hmyuedg said:


> Not sure what you mean by 'mod' blocks - I assume you mean the little lego-brick style thingy, if so - thats what I thought the cabs were hung with (as my mum's kitchen has those - but that is about 20 years old now).


I thought you meant these:






and wondered why you were talking about them



ByronBlack":2hmyuedg said:


> The wall is solid, it's the dividing wall between me and the neighbours.


In thet case the standard wall plates, like these, will do the job:






If your wall does turn out to be a bit ropey, pop-in two screws. I always hand cabs on 65mm or longer screws as they have better pull-out resistance

Scrit


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## Ratter (6 May 2007)

I have really enjoyed this thread, which has confirmed lots of things I wasn't quite sure of and given me lots of new ideas.

I now have a couple of questions of my own.

I have one long wall in my kitchen which is very rough as it was once the outside wall with various lean to's attached (before my time). I am just about ready to put the stud wall back up having sorted the plumbing nightmare behind it.

I was intending to add some horizontal studding at the right height to hang the wall cupboards - probably 4 x 2 rather than 2 x 2 to give a bit of latitude. The problem is estimating the fixing height as the cabinets I'm thinking of using are a B & Q delivered only type. A further complication is that my wife wants some tall cabinets which come right down to the worktop at either end of the run, which effectively removes any adjustment later. Maybe somebody has some B & Q Select range and knows the fixing height - I've measured the fixing centre inside the cabinet on the display in the shop but it looks like the wallplate fixing needs to be a little lower than this from the evidence of Scrit's picture.

I'm also think about cabinet lights - presumably these are usually wired to a lighting circuit, but how is the wiring usually brought down to under cabinet level? And what sort of terminals are usually provided?


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## engineer one (6 May 2007)

can't say anything about the heights of the specific units, what you need to think though is how far below the top of a unit is the fixing going to be, probably about thickness of the mfc, say 15mm plus half approx the height of the fixing, but as scrit says these have horizontal as well as vertical adjustment, so measure to the centre of the horizontal hole, add this to the thickness, and this is your basic distance give or take the odd movement when drilling.

as for the lighting, use the low voltage tubes, or newer energy saving fixtures which are fixed below the pelmet under your upper cabinets, and the lead from the transformer just goes to the normal plug, generally clipped along the pelmet, and then you go down to the socket. do not suggest that you hide the sockets in a cupboard for safety's sake.

generally these lights are switchable at each bulb point to save power, although i guess you could switch on at the plug too. given the shadows produced by the upper cabs, low power lights give a really good light.

in a b&q they are along side the normal tubes, but shorter and have a plugable range which can build up along your run of cabinets.

paul :wink:


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## Scrit (6 May 2007)

Ratter":3mmai0x8 said:


> I was intending to add some horizontal studding at the right height to hang the wall cupboards - probably 4 x 2 rather than 2 x 2 to give a bit of latitude. The problem is estimating the fixing height as the cabinets I'm thinking of using are a B & Q delivered only type.


It isn't strictly necessary. You could always notch-out the sides of the cabs at the back and hang the cabs on 2.5m long rails like these as opposed to the small hanging brackets normally supplied:











These are Woodfit's BC254, but there are other suppliers out there. Because these are long rails you can simply fix through the plasterboard into the studs wherever the studs are and use a few Redidrivas or compression fittings to tie the ends of the rails in to the wall.



Ratter":3mmai0x8 said:


> A further complication is that my wife wants some tall cabinets which come right down to the worktop at either end of the run, which effectively removes any adjustment later. Maybe somebody has some B & Q Select range and knows the fixing height - I've measured the fixing centre inside the cabinet on the display in the shop but it looks like the wallplate fixing needs to be a little lower than this from the evidence of Scrit's picture.


The drilling centres of the rails are something like 40mm to 50mm below the tops of the cabs, although with the long rails you don't need to do the extra work of putting in noggins and reboarding. 



Ratter":3mmai0x8 said:


> I'm also think about cabinet lights - presumably these are usually wired to a lighting circuit, but how is the wiring usually brought down to under cabinet level? And what sort of terminals are usually provided?


Almost all the lighting is low voltage with a transformer. Each transformer can handle two lights easily, so the transformers are "daisy chained" and fixed to the tops of the cabs and the cables to to lights just drop down behind the cabs - there is actually a narrow gap between the cab back and the wall where you can feed them through. The cornice mouldings hide this from view. The spark normally takes mains power from a high-level socket (the socket provided to power the extractor fan) to a covered junction box then drops a live cable down behind a cab to a low-profile surface mounted back box and switch plate which is screwed underneath one of the cabs. From that another cable goes back up to the transformers mounted on top of one or more of the cabs. The switch nestles behind the ligh pelmet so it isn't seen. If you haven't got a high level switched outlet to power the extractor, then you need one. :wink: 



engineer one":3mmai0x8 said:


> generally these lights are switchable at each bulb point to save power, although i guess you could switch on at the plug too. given the shadows produced by the upper cabs, low power lights give a really good light.


I think you're thinking about the older flourescent tube type fittings, Paul. A lot of the newer dichroics and LEDs don't have individual switches on them at all. In any case I think it's always better to be able to douse a run of lights from a single switch rather than have to reach up and fumble around under the pelmet for each switch

Scrit


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## engineer one (6 May 2007)

touche scrit, just thinking energy saving :? :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Scrit (6 May 2007)

I didn't think that LEDs used that much power. The dichroics must do, though, they always seem to run red hot

Scrit


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## Ratter (6 May 2007)

Scrit":2mj7w6ui said:


> You could always notch-out the sides of the cabs at the back and hang the cabs on 2.5m long rails like these as opposed to the small hanging brackets normally supplied



That's a very good idea and it'll be easier to get the run level if they are all mounted to the same rail. 



Scrit":2mj7w6ui said:


> Almost all the lighting is low voltage with a transformer.
> If you haven't got a high level switched outlet to power the extractor, then you need one.



Don't transformers = wasted power even when turned off?  

My extractor will be on a different wall, so it seems to me just as easy to have a single switch at worktop level to turn the whole run and take the supply from the lighting circuit to a junction box near the first transformer - then there is no plug and socket to hide.

But lots of useful information - as usual  




engineer one":2mj7w6ui said:


> generally these lights are switchable at each bulb point to save power, although i guess you could switch on at the plug too. given the shadows produced by the upper cabs, low power lights give a really good light.



We have individually switchable ones now - to my knowledge the only time anybody has turned them off was when one started flickering! 

I can't get these wretched quotes to work properly


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## Scrit (6 May 2007)

Ratter":1iqz26bw said:


> Scrit":1iqz26bw said:
> 
> 
> > Almost all the lighting is low voltage with a transformer.
> ...


Only if the power to the circuit is still on. That's why I have mine running through a circuit isolation switch, but 12volt in an environment where there is water is surely a bit safer than mains voltage. As I said, though, many 12 volt lights don't have individual light switches, some strip fittings don't have them either, so a circuit isolator is a necessary safety feature.



Ratter":1iqz26bw said:


> I can't get these wretched quotes to work properly


Take the space between the "quote" and "=" out..... :wink: 

Scrit


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## Ratter (6 May 2007)

Scrit":16onywoj said:


> Take the space between the "quote" and "=" out.....



Cracked it :!:


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## jasonB (6 May 2007)

B&Q Select do both 720 & 900 wall cabs so your overall height will be determined by which you go for. If using 720's then the top of the wall cabs will be the same as a larder/tall oven housing @ 2070mm or if you go with the 900's then it will be 2250mm, they do dresser units to suit both heights.

Screw holes for plates will be approx 60mm below cab tops.

I always have cabinet lighting switched from a light switch which usually means having a 2gang switch, this switches a FCU above the cabs with flex to the transformers or mains strip lights.

Jason


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## Ratter (6 May 2007)

jasonB":2fuzefwm said:


> they do dresser units to suit both heights.



Yes, that's the set up she wants. I reckon with the 900mm ones, you can put what you like above them and nobody will ever see it from ground level, but electrical services can easily be accessed if needed.



jasonB":2fuzefwm said:


> Screw holes for plates will be approx 60mm below cab tops.



That's exactly what I reckoned  

Does anybody know why plinths are so big these days? My existing units are handmade and well past their best but they are over 800mm high, so I'll be losing about 8cm / 3" in height. Not so far to bend down though.  

Jason


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## jasonB (6 May 2007)

> Yes, that's the set up she wants. I reckon with the 900mm ones, you can put what you like above them and nobody will ever see it



You mean she does not dust up there  :wink: 

95% of doors are 720 high so you need 140-150 plinths to give the usual 900-910 working surface. 

If you start making the doors much taller it can give problems with bottom hinged built-in appliances like dishwashers unless you go for Fisher & paykel draw ones with integrated fronts. If you are worried about loosing space then fit plinth draws.

Jason


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## Jake (6 May 2007)

Bear in mind that the standard worktop height is only good for very short people by modern standards. It seems to have got set some long time ago, and has stayed the same as the population has got taller.


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