# Bench Design - Please do a critique



## kinsella

Colleagues
I'm about to start work on a new work bench. See pictures. My question is, i've never used a proper bench since school, i don't know how i've managed without one over the years. I now got a load of salvaged good quality 1940's pine to make it. I've looked on the internet and i've decided that i would like a front vice and tail vice. i've purchased the Axminster York front and tail vice. 

Does anyone know details of how these are constructed. I got some vague ideas, but if anyone has any pictures or links that would be helpful. 

Another thing is puzzling me. I see on the internet that most tail screws like i'm intending, the piece on the front just by the gap where is says 75mm on my top view drawing doesn't meet the main bench. Why not? is this a typical method? is there a reason? as i could see an advantage for having that ack as a vice also?

Screws i'm using are:
York Tail Screw
York Front Screw

Also: Can those of you who have experience of benches take a look at my design and let me know where you see major use problems and suggest changes as you see fit. I'd hate to build it and then realise that i've mucked it up.

Ken, Newbie


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## marcros

Ken,

could I recommend the book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Workbenches-Des ... 089&sr=1-1 on the subject. I have it in my hand at the moment.

I have just lost a long reply, so rather than retype it, do some forum searches for "roubo bench" and "holdfasts". There are several good bench builds on here and they are great reading whilst you are in the design stage.

Personally, I would simplify your design, and think: legs, bracing, top and vices as your main parts. This is basically the roubo bench from the Schwarz book. 

It may sound irrelevant, but what are you wanting to make on your new bench?


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## kinsella

Everything i do is for me, friends or family. Its mainly furniture, ie my next few projects are (with the exception of the bench). Dressers x 4, wardrobes x 2, arts & Craft style display unit, new back door, finishing 6 Teak planters.


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## marcros

Ken,

I hope that somebody more knowledgable than I will jump in. I am very much a beginner and am designing my first bench. I have been doing some research online, and have the book above.

You need to think about how you are going to be able to work on all faces and edges of a board, and how you can hold work to do so. Having the front of the top flush with the legs will allow you to hold work against the front edge of the top. The far end can be supported with holdfasts, or by clamping a support in your end vice.

I would suggest that you drill 3/4" "dog" holes in your top to allow you to use holdfasts- we have a group deal on here if you do a search. would also build in a planing stop. I cant zoom in on your design- what width and thickness have you designed the top to be?


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## SketchUp Guru

As to the tail vise, take a look here: http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=ltv and read the installation instructions which you can download from the link on the page. That ought to make it clear how the vise works and how it is assembled. Most tail vises operate the same way.

I've heard numerous reasons for why they don't close up fully. I've never bought any of those reasons, though.


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## kinsella

Colleagues 
Maybe I should have bought that type of tail vice, but I opted for the one that just has the screw and I need to build a carriage system. Budget version!!

I should have added that I will be putting in square dog holes, both sides, plus a planning stop.

Maybe I should have bought the book !


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## Jacob

As it's your first bench I wouldn't commit yourself to something so complicated and difficult to make. It's the sort of design you'd expect as a "last" bench made by somebody experienced who knows exactly what he wants and has designed it to suit his needs.
Instead I'd stick to the universal school pattern as per this one from the Paul Sellers site:






Dead easy to make, highly functional and anyway you need it in order to build the one you have designed! It's highly adaptable with plenty of scope for add ons of various sorts.
Thread here: tell-me-how-to-build-the-easiest-workbench-possible-t57285-15.html

The simple bench is basically two pairs of 4x4" legs joined by 6 x 1 1/2 rails M&T joints.
Then the "beam" is added say 3x9". Then the aprons, say 1 1/2" x 10" housed to brace the legs and the back one raised to make the back of the well. Then a bit of ply for the well base. Could do it in a day easy!


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## SketchUp Guru

Even if you aren't using a vise such as the one to which I linked, it'll give you an idea of how to build the bits you need to make it work right. there's a lot of info there in the instructions. I used the documentation when I worked out the dimensions to draw that vise for a bench plan I made a year or so ago.


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## Jacob

I've just been browsing the Scott Landis book which is full of interesting stuff without a doubt - but everything is fussy and complicated - even where supposedly "basic" such as Ian Kirby's on page 80. The exceptions being the (over simple) planing beam or bench.

IMHO there is a huge omission - the basic Brit bench as per the Sellers one above. Thousands of these have been made and used for generations and most people learned on something similar. Oddly there is a note about the Workmate (useless IMHO) but absolutely no mention of the bench we all know and take for granted.
Bring back the British bench!

PS Is it British? I assume so, it seems to be based around the Record vice. Is the Record vice a very British thing?


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## kinsella

Colleagues
Some useful pointers, I think back to the drawing board, or to bring to the 21st century drawing computer. I might invest in the book, I've been avoiding it but maybe I have no choice. 

Clamping against the face is something I've missed, I think I concentrated on clamping from the underside, but with dogs, this use is lessened, so that's a useful pointer.


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## Cheshirechappie

A couple of points I've learned from my first bench.

1) Make the underframe as rigid as possible. When you plane a board on the benchtop, the force can be considerable, and will try to distort the retangular-shaped underframe into a parallelogram (provided you don't shove it across the floor!). The only thing resisting this is the strength of the underframe joinery. Make that massive, then a bit bigger. (I didn't, and it's a serious failing.)

2) I made mine out of joinery grade pine, because it was easily available. The top was laminated out of 3x2's, long side vertical, paying attention to end-grain so that it went alternate ways across the top. It has stayed remarkably flat. It cuts up a bit more than a hardwood one would, but being pine, cleaning it up with a plane now and again is not so onerous. Could have don with a bit more mass in the whole thing, though - another reason for a heavy underframe.

3) May be worth dispensing with the storage drawers underneath. You know what's going to happen - clamp job in face vice, need tool that's in a drawer blocked by job. Also, holdfasts through the top can be very handy, but they protrude below the bench top underside, so you need a bit of 'daylight' under there.

4) Provide a row of dog holes about 3" maximum in from the front, in line with the middle of the tailvice. I used a Record vice fixed to the right-hand end as a tailvice, and the centreline of that threw the line of dog-holes about 6" from the front. It's too far in - you have to lean over the bench when you have a narrowish bit held for planing, and it distorts your back rather uncomfortably. From experience, keep your front row of dog-holes as near the front edge of the bench as you can sensibly get them.

The general layout of the benchtop looks very good, however. Good luck with the build!


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## RogerS

Storage drawers underneath are a right PITA. I fitted some to my bench and wish I hadn't. 

Are there any dog holes in the top...not clear from the drawing.

I did see an interesting design that had the hollow well in the middle of the bench rather than at the back. Worth considering.


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## Midnight

vise issues aside, the key requirements that every bench needs to have are rigidity, as much square footage in the top as space permits, and mass... heavier the better. Using relitivly light timber in the construction might leave you wanting in the mass dept, the drawers however may compensate for that; you can save hours of tool-hunting time by organising your bench tools in the drawers, and their mass will only help whatever is happening up topside. If you plan to edge joint your boards in the front vise, you'll need some way to support the far end of the board, sliding deadman being just one example (currently looking at adding one to my bench). My personal preference is not to have a toolwell in the benchtop... it's just a place for mess to gather, but some guys can't live without them... I'd rather keep the surface clear and free, tools not in use stored in the drawers/cupboard under the bench. 

One other aspect... think about how to knock the bench down into component parts in the event you move house...


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## condeesteso

Missed this one... probably built already!
I agree about rigidity and mass. Not so sure about maximum surface area - I'd say around 78" is plenty.
I also agree make the first one fairly basic - your ideas on benches will evolve anyway, and a basic design is easier to modify later.
The school bench above is a good basic design - apron front and Record face vice. Whether for front or tail position, a second-hand Record 9" Quick-release will be a very good find, and will probably go with you to the next bench and the next... (Personally I would fit a leg vice in favour of a Record any day, but others disagree).
I think those trad L shaped tail vices are flawed as they try to be 2 things and are not very good at either - hard to set-up and keep aligned, limited in use, fussy. A straight vice in tail position (another Record even) or a shop made wagon vice is worth considering. That's just a vice screw, a channel along the top and a dog=block riding within the channel on the screw.
The Landis book shows loads of benches with fronts set back. I don't have the book but don't recall seeing a single one with flush front assembly. Chris Schwarz on the other hand would never make a bench with the front set back. I have still to hear any real arguments in favour of setting the front back, because the front when flush is a great big clamping area (for doors, frames, big sheets etc). I am very firmly in the Schwarz camp on that issue. 
Personally I think front-to-back maximum 22", and 20 is fine. I don't like built-in tool trays - they fill up with smaller tools then get covered in shavings etc.
Consider a loose tray along the back, resting on short cantilevers screwed under back bench top. It lifts off for cleaning, and isn't part of the actual bench.
And I would not want to spend time making drawers etc under - a couple of shelves maybe, but the drawer system is a lot of work fixed into a bench you may later replace.

Keep us informed of decisions and progress - there is no one perfect bench, so good to have a look at another one!


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## Phil Pascoe

i designed mine without aprons for better accessability for ccramping.
another good idea is to get a short length of spur shelf support and set it a groove in the leg at the other end to your vice- a short shelf bracket, and you have an adjustable support for sheets of ply, doors etc. just remember to remove the bracket when not in use, as you'll catch your shin on it!


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## kinsella

Final design now in construction. Thanks to all for comments.


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## Anima

Please forgive my stupidity but what's the bit sticking out from the middle?


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## marcros

i like the design. my only criticism would be that i think it is a bit too deep front to back. I did mine at about 20" i think, and wish now that i had had the balls to go for 18". but that is me- i could find spare space to dump stuff on the edge of a razor blade!


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## kinsella

The stick sticking up was me just drawing the dogs so i new what size to cut them.   the other bench looking bit is the jib to cut the holes for the dogs.

Marcros, i'm rough cutting the weekend, i might take another look at that, thanks for comment. 

PS, its going to cost me circa £50 when i'm finished. All the wood is salvaged. the darker colour is Beech and the lighter is salvage spreader plates from bomb reinforcement from an old 1902 building that had some work pre war. I think its colorado pine or similar. All i've bought is the glue and the bench screws.

Anyone who wants the sketchup drawings is free to have them, just PM me.


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## kinsella

Work in progress.


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## kinsella

update photos


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## marcros

looking good.

is the top fixed down? you may need to counterbore your dog holes if you are using them, and plan to use holdfasts. it looks a nice thick slab.


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## Jacob

I'd take out the middle of the top to make a well. This is useful, and also makes for a more stable top. Then split the saved board to make two aprons. These also are useful and increase rigidity enormously.


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## kinsella

Its 70mm thick. Beech in the middle just for decoration and pine boards. Its fixed with 6 bolts from underneath with expansion room. i wanted it to be heavy enough to withstand any forces put to the work piece. Its on drop down wheels which work a treat to move around and then kick them and the whole thing drop to the ground. 

Next steps.......
fit tail vice, dog holes, make dogs, then deadman. then last of all some drawers.

Next project, a jewellery box for the missus. 

I did as earlier suggested and read the workbench design book and i was off the view that the wells didnt suit my methods of working. The book didnt suggest them either. So i've opted for no well, and i intend to make a tool shelf nearby the bench.


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## kinsella

marcros, just realised it was you who suggested book! it did the trick. It was worth the money. Will probably stick the book up later for sale.


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## bugbear

kinsella":1d12u7nr said:


> I did as earlier suggested and read the workbench design book and i was off the view that the wells didnt suit my methods of working. The book didnt suggest them either. So i've opted for no well, and i intend to make a tool shelf nearby the bench.



Scott Landis says (on the basis of interviews) that tool wells are a purely personal preference, with no right or wrong.

BugBear


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## kinsella

To be fair, as you can see from the drawing in post no 1, i had intended to include a well. As someone who puts down a tool and then spends the next few minutes trying to find it again, i thought the well might actully help. But having read the book, i thought i'll try it without. i can always retro cut one out.


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## Benchwayze

If you can get hold of a copy of 'The Workbench Book', check out Ian Kirby's contribution inside. 

He favours the plain English style bench. No tail-vice, ordinary Q/R Vice (just one) and a rising bench-planing stop through the top.
I believe if you use a bit of imagination, you could work on all sides and edges of a board using just that basic bench. 
You might need a few G cramps and use a bit of imagination with your vice, and maybe knock up a 'bench-slave', but these benches are the easiest to build for sure. Alan Holtham describes one such on the YouTube. His does have a tail vice, but apart from that it's similar to the Kirby Bench. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXEvRoW8lY8

HTH


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## condeesteso

Excellent bench indeed, Kinsella. If I was being picky I might question the low axis centre of the face vice screw - I would suspect some vertical racking, but see how it goes and let us all know.
The real triumph is the low cost of really good materials. +1 from me for no tool tray.
On that video (above) I have seen Polywax mantioned before, but anyone know really what it is, and how it behaves?? (Poly suggests polymerisation... could this be a polymerised wax, and if so, how??).


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## Phil Pascoe

From experience, I would suggest a well if the bench is in the middle of a room, and no well if it's against a wall. You can't easily reach shelves,racks, hooks etc. from the middle of a room - every time you wanted to drop something it would drive you nuts.


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## Jacob

Some advantages of a well;
1 Makes the bench very easy to construct. See the Paul Sellers videos for the (nearly) ideal bench design and construction techniques.
2 Easy to level one beam against the other as compared to levelling a one piece top
3 Holds tools, odds and ends, stops them getting trapped under the workpiece and leaving marks.
4 Makes handling of a workpiece easier - you can get your hands or clamps around it whilst it's sitting square on the beams

There are probably other advantages. The other essential is aprons, for rigidity and work holding.


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## Phil Pascoe

Ultimately you do what suits you and your purposes best. The best thing I did with mine was not put aprons in it.


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## kinsella

I'm expecting vertical racking and i've tapered the vice to compensate, its currently working a treat. It holds the wood very sturdy. I think i probably tapered it too much and will probably run it through the thicknesser again. It's 70mm thinck so its not as if i don't have room for error. I've added two teak 20mm round rods as guides and to keep the screw in place as it rotates. In hindsight, i probably could have got away with one. I was originally going to use square, but thought cutting the mortice would be a pain, so i used round. I think i spent twice as long turning it on the lathe that it would have taken to hand cut the mortise.


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## kinsella

To recap for those interested, i work in construction so i come across material from time to time that needs to be stripped out. I salvage it and then prepare it. Its murder on tools as the amount of metal you come across is a pain. 

The pine is bomb reinforcement from a 1902 listed building that was upgraded pre war and amazingly i discovered it did the job it was intended for as it took a direct hit. The beech strips and vice fronts are from 1960 lab benches that i knocked down, the oak handle is new American White Oak. The Teak is pre 1960 science top benches, the plane stop is from a building that we clad in timber, i think its called Andera of something similar. 
So its currently made from :
Americal White Oak
Colorado Pine
Teak
Beech
A bit of a mix you could say.


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## kinsella

Latest progress


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## Harbo

Looks good

Rod


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## Phil Pascoe

I can't speak for the tail vice, but I can't see the advantage of a wooden front vice over a 52 1/2 or 53. Lovely bench nevertheless.


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## Jacob

I can't see the vices working - there's nothing to stop them racking except two thin sticks which I imagine would snap off under pressure. There's a good reason for the leg of a leg vice!


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## kinsella

When using only screws, they will always rack. But to counteract this you chanfer the vice to compensate so when you apply pressure it twist flat. It may sound odd, but it definately works, Every bit of wood i've put in is held firm, vertical and the tops of both vices are firmly against the piece. Its a tried and tested way. 

The challenge was to build a cheap bench. The screws came from the from Axmister York versions as linked earlier in thread. It does exactly what i need it to do. i did look at the Veritas and metal versions which address racking, but i thought these were too expensive for what i wanted. I'm just a weekend DIY'er. 

Its currently only cost me £40 (oh ya and nearly the top of my finger, 15years of woodwork in my shed and never had a single accident, the odd scrape and scratch. i just wanted a shotcut, and ended up cutting a lovely 'V' joint into my index finger on the router table, before any of you say it. "i'm a #[email protected] silly person" yes i know, lesson learnt). 
Whats the saying. "Router in haste and repent in leisure" or something like that anyway. 

Will be making a dowel making jig the weekend to make the dogs. I will then try it without drawers and make my mind up later if i want to add them to it.


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## AndyT

I really like the use of salvaged materials - it's sad to think of the tons of similar stuff buried or burnt!

Also, can I ask about the darker bit across the left hand end, with a wingnut? Is that a full-width planing stop? How is it fixed and is it effective in use?


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## kinsella

The material is andira which is the left over from an exterior timber cladding project i worked on. Yes its a full width planing stop. Just for decoration as it doesnt need to be full width. Its rag bolted in place with a treaded end M8 or 10 can't recall now. Wing nuts are temporary until i make some propper knobs to use. I use a lot of power tools, so i don't use extensively to plane down timber as i have a P/T machine. But its effective for what i use it for. it could easily be improved with another bolt.


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## Anima

The bench looks great. For £40 it's exceptional.

Please forgive the stupid question but what is racking?


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## Phil Pascoe

Racking - if the front and back of the vice were perfectly parallel,when something was put in it a pivot would be created as the screw below it was tightened, and the vice would only touch the item at the bottom. By making the faces out of parallel in the first place, the screw then tightens the vice onto the item with the pivot on the top edge, the faces pull back to being parallel because the screw is below them, thereby holding the top and bottom, not just the bottom. It doesn't matter that the faces aren't parallel when the vice is loose, as long as it pulls tight parallel.


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## Anima

Perfectly explained thank you.


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## kinsella

What Phil said! :0)


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## Dangermouse

quote " The challenge was to build a cheap bench. The screws came from the from axmister York versions as linked earlier in thread. It does exactly what i need it to do. i did look at the Veritas and metal versions which address racking, but i thought these were too expensive for what i wanted. I'm just a weekend DIY'er. " Quote

I am using the same York screws to make a twin screw vice in a new bench build. Man are they thick and indestrucible !! I will be using a metal side bar to stop racking running in a brass sleeve and I might use my metal lathe to put some needle bearings in the front shaft housing to take out the slack in the york screw boss, where the handle fits.


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## kinsella

DM,
I'm on the hunt for a metal lathe, but no luck yet, as someone who first learned metalwork not woodwork, if i had the kit, i think i probably would do the same. I must admit if you can reduce/omit racking, then that is definately the way to go. I did see this drawing that you posted, does the screw slide down the steel housing. thus it can't rack as its inside a steel tube?
I might PM you for the drawing if you don't mind?


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## Dangermouse

kinsella":3oh7fiw3 said:


> DM,
> I'm on the hunt for a metal lathe, but no luck yet, as someone who first learned metalwork not woodwork, if i had the kit, i think i probably would do the same. I must admit if you can reduce/omit racking, then that is definately the way to go. I did see this drawing that you posted, does the screw slide down the steel housing. thus it can't rack as its inside a steel tube?
> I might PM you for the drawing if you don't mind?



Hi
the end of the screw is turned and fitted inside a thick walled tube and pinned, the steel tube fits inside the brass bush in the mount, which is fixed to the underside of the bench. So when the vice moves the rod slides in the housing, eliminating rack on the screw. To stop racking on the outer face, a bar or tube is fitted each end and that runs in a housing behind the side of the bench. I haven't measured up to see if its possible, but if it is, I will also fit some needle bearings to the screw shaft, for the outer cast fixing to run on. Giving a tight fit, but easy rotation. Again eliminating rack on the vice chop. Belt and braces you might say. Do you have sketchup, I can let you have the full 3d model or if not you can have a few 2d pictures from different angles. PM me.


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## kinsella

Latest progess, sliding deadman finished, dogs now complete, a few glueing up with leather patches on the clamping surface. Bench now in use. Finally some under storage to start.


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## marcros

you may have covered this, but what are the star handles on the end for?


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## kinsella

It's a full width planing stop. It's full width for decoration more than practicality. The knobs clamp the stop to the end, as the is a threaded inset in the end.


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## marcros

i remember now that you mention it.


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## kinsella

Update. Memo to self, don't weld on your newly completed timber work bench. Never mind, planed another 3mm off the top to fix. How i ever managed without one of these i'll never know. I'm using every bit. Bench hooks, tail vice, front vice, dogs, planing stop. If i was to change anything, i think i'll add more holes in the bench for the bench hooks.

Ripping large board by hand with a proper Diston rip saw.


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## Dionmayland

looks ok, simple and plain but it looks functional


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## rafezetter

kinsella":xk7866jo said:


> Latest progess, sliding deadman finished, dogs now complete, a few glueing up with leather patches on the clamping surface. Bench now in use. Finally some under storage to start.



Sorry to necro an old thread but...

Dunno If you're still on the forum Kisella, but if you are I'm curious about your wheel attachments on your bench, as I need to be able to move mine about too, then plant it firmly on its leg bases in use.

Looks like they are on some 2 x 2's with a piano hinge, but how do you make them stay down to move the bench; through bolt pins or some other device?

Great bench by the way, got some good ideas from it.


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## kinsella

See attached the photos. Without the wheels my workshop would be unworkable. I have everything on wheels and i end up doing a waltz as its only a garage size. See attached the photos. The wheels are fixed to a batten, which is hinged and then the timber flap acts as a support. To move you lift the bench, kick the timber flap, wheels fall down. To enagage you lift and gravit drops the flap down again. Perfect!


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## rafezetter

kinsella":3oyrvsj4 said:


> See attached the photos. Without the wheels my workshop would be unworkable. I have everything on wheels and i end up doing a waltz as its only a garage size. See attached the photos. The wheels are fixed to a batten, which is hinged and then the timber flap acts as a support. To move you lift the bench, kick the timber flap, wheels fall down. To enagage you lift and gravit drops the flap down again. Perfect!



Sorry for late reply - I'd forgotten about this question . but... I'm being thick - I don't get it.. I was thinking of something similar, but I can't decipher your wording :S 

Any chance you could enlarge those photo's please?


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## kinsella

Raf
Its better explained here, http://woodgears.ca/mobile_base/jointer.html


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## Jacob

You can only move one thing at a time so it could be simpler to get just one set of wheels - a pallet truck. Not cheap but very powerful and come in all shapes and sizes. e.g.


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## rafezetter

aha i see ty.

That Matthias doesn't half have some good ideas.

Pallet truck wouldn't be practical for the few feet I will need to move my bench. - A good sized workshop to make space for large jobs... sure.


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