# Buying some planes.



## Slim (14 Jan 2007)

Hi everyone.

Having had a few moments on previous projects where I have thought to myself I needed some decent planes, I have decided to have a look at car boot sales and ebay for some decent second hand ones.

I know that the newer stanley and record planes are not too well thought of nowadays. My question is what age of plane should I look at to get a decent tool for these two makes.

Also what other makes should I be looking at second hand? (Definately cant afford the likes of LN and Veritas)

I am after a no.4, 5 and 7. and a block plane.

Many thanks in advance


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## Paul Chapman (14 Jan 2007)

Hi Slimjim,

If I were starting out again, knowing what I know now, I would try a different approach. That would be to buy two expensive, but very good, planes rather than four cheaper ones.

My choice would be a Clifton #6 or #7 http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalo ... lanes.html and a Veritas low angle block plane http://www.brimarc.com/home.php3?page=p ... C_106_22_1

In practice, you could do almost everything you want with these planes and in my experience they will out-perform any Record or Stanley bench and block planes by a significant margin. It's true that the older Record and Stanley planes were much better than the new ones but they are no match for the planes being produced by Clifton, Veritas and LN - even after much fettling and fitting replacement blades and cap irons.

That's my opinion, based on my experience, but others will no doubt be along with a different view.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Waka (15 Jan 2007)

Slimjim81

Enter the competition and you could win a Clifton 4 1/2.


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## JesseM (15 Jan 2007)

While I agree with Paul's suggestions I will add as far old planes go that a good ole Stanley #5 is very useful to have around. Its one of the few vintage planes I use all the time.


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## Philly (15 Jan 2007)

Jim
Quality at Stanley and Record took a dive after the War so anything before that is definitely worth buying.
Of course, you need to be able to date you plane. These links will help...
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html
http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/ ... refs.htmlv
http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanle ... /main.html

Hope this helps
Philly


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## Shivers (15 Jan 2007)

Paul Chapman":1khfu1vh said:


> Hi Slimjim,
> 
> If I were starting out again, knowing what I know now, I would try a different approach. That would be to buy two expensive, but very good, planes rather than four cheaper ones.
> 
> ...



I agree with paul on this-most of my use of a plane has been with my No7(with clifton split cap iron/hock blade),& i have plenty of others,i very rarely even use a smoother-maybe the odd time--get yourself the best jointer plane you can afford, & then to be able to do odd work--get a record 778(dont get the stanley 78 as its not as good),after that pretty soon you will come across a No5 for next to nothing.then progress onto the more specialist planes after you become adept at using the ones already mentioned.it's really important to develop a feel for a plane before you move on to other specialist items(of course dont turn down anything at bargain prices) --but aim for top quality first.Top quality meaning no off brands,& specialist means shoulder/badger/rebate planes ect,
Just learn to use a no7 then take it from there.


shivers


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## woodbloke (15 Jan 2007)

Paul Chapman wrote:


> you could do almost everything you want with these planes


Agree here with you Paul....just don't tell Philly that's all :lol: :lol:
I think I would also tend to go for a couple of much better quality planes rather than the usual run of the mill Record jobs....tho' definitly have a look at older planes. A low front knob is generally a sign of something older. Interestingly, Alan Peters uses mostly a No7 and a decent quality block - Rob


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## Anonymous (15 Jan 2007)

Paul Chapman":kilahvdl said:


> Hi Slimjim,
> 
> If I were starting out again, knowing what I know now, I would try a different approach. That would be to buy two expensive, but very good, planes rather than four cheaper ones.
> 
> Paul



I agree with this - this is hindsioght of course :lol: 

But, having said that, part of the process is learning the limitations of the lesser toosl as your skills grown and then moving on. 
I started with a new Stanley #5, tuned it up loads, new blade, chip breaker etc. and then eventually started to buy LN planes once I developed beyond the stanley (quite a few years later!). I still use that stanley occasioally and it is in my plane rack with the rest.


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## bugbear (15 Jan 2007)

Slimjim81":3aywdx6b said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Having had a few moments on previous projects where I have thought to myself I needed some decent planes, I have decided to have a look at car boot sales and ebay for some decent second hand ones.
> 
> ...



For simple guide, I would recommend buying older Record planes, where the blade has square (or at least angular) corners on the non-sharpened end. Later blade had rounded corners which were presumably a comfort/safety feature. This "tip" allows you to spot older (and desirable) Record planes at a substantial distance and without detailed inspection.

Beyond this, I would only recommend buying pretty good example; disconcertingly, the price difference between a junk #4 and a really good #4 at car boots is minimal; it's hard to get a #4 for less than a fiver, regradless of brand and/or condition, and yet it's rare to see one at over 15 quid.

So you should be looking for complete planes, with undamaged handles, little or no rust, and a good length of blade.

You should have very little trouble getting a #4 and #5. #7's are dramatically rarer, and will go for 40-70 quid, even at car boots.

I would recommend simply buying the Lee Valley Low Angle block planes. Adjustable mouth block planes are (IME) ultra rare at car boots, and normally highly priced.

There is ample information on the net or in your local library on fixup and tuning.

BugBear


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## MIGNAL (15 Jan 2007)

Please don't take this the wrong way but what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't?


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## Shivers (15 Jan 2007)

MIGNAL":1terrg3g said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't?



stanelys have only been in use for 120 years --so they cant be that good.LOL.

Good point nothing wrong with stanleys if set up correctly that applies to any plane really,because of your comment i realise i went a bit overboard with my reccomondations,i should have mentioned that the stanleys(the big ones anyway)are in the group to have & are not beginners toys.
regards.


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## Vormulac (15 Jan 2007)

bugbear":28m7wmor said:


> For simple guide, I would recommend buying older Record planes, where the blade has square (or at least angular) corners on the non-sharpened end. Later blade had rounded corners which were presumably a comfort/safety feature. This "tip" allows you to spot older (and desirable) Record planes at a substantial distance and without detailed inspection.



I don't suppose you would have a photographic example of this kicking around somewhere do you? That sounds like a superb tip and one I look forward to exercising at the next car boot sale I find! 

V.


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## woodbloke (15 Jan 2007)

Bugbear - now that is a good tip to recognise the older Record planes...but what do you do if the blade had been replaced at some point? - Rob


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## MIGNAL (15 Jan 2007)

Just hope that someone hasn't swapped blades with regard to the square edged blade  It's usually a good sign though.
I'm not sure I would recommend a No 7, not until we know what sort of projects he wants to undertake. Most plane size recommendations are pretty dependent on the task you want to carry out.
The other option for plane selection are the woodies, either antique or perhaps the modern cheap Hong kong planes. I like them but they are not for everyone. The Hong Kong planes came out very well in a plane test that is available on the internet but then again they are bedded at 60 degrees and you would expect them to do well cutting at that angle. Blades are High Speed Steel so pretty tuff to sharpen, but once sharp they stay sharp for so much longer.


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## Alf (15 Jan 2007)

Rob, 'Tis simple. Leave it for someone who's read-up even more of the finer points of spotting a good'un... :wink: 

The not unjustified question has been posed: what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't? To which the answer is "nothing". However, to get an LN, Clifton or Veritas all you need is money. To get a well-tuned Stanley you need time, skill, practice and experience. And money - but posibly not as much. Although you may finding yourself buying a lot of "cheap" planes if you get the bug, at which point it would arguably have been cheaper to buy an "expensive" plane in the first place. I'm a warning to others regarding that danger... Unless you know of a source of well-tuned Stanleys in which case all bets are off.

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (15 Jan 2007)

MIGNAL":2hmcakfd said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't?



I have Record and Stanley bench and block planes which I bought in the 1970s because that was all that was available, and Clifton bench planes and a Veritas low angle block plane that I bought more recently.

Before buying the Clifton and Veritas bench planes I went down the road of adding better blades and cap irons (Clifton) to my Records and Stanleys and trying to tune the planes to get them to work better. However, despite marked improvements I was never entirely satisfied with their performance. They were OK on soft woods and sweet-grained hardwoods but on tough hardwoods and problem woods with interlocked grain and the like, I found their performance wanting.

The Clifton bench planes and the Veritas low angle block were a revelation. I put it down to the following.

The castings are better machined. They are a proper engineering job with all the parts (particularly the frog assemblies) fitting perfectly. This results in no chatter. The blades and cap irons are thick and made of superior materials. They bed down nicely on the frog. The Bedrock pattern frog on the Cliftons makes adjusting the mouth so easy, without dismantling the planes (this is important to me because I don't have a table saw, planer/thicknesser or bandsaw so I need to be able to adjust the mouth of my planes more than some other users). The planes are heavy which I find helps - planes jumping about on very hard woods because they are too light give the same sort of problems as chatter. In a nutshell, it comes down to better engineering and better materials. By comparison, my older Records and Stanleys feel as if they were just thrown together  

Since getting the Cliftons and the Veritas block, many planing problems have simply gone away - no chatter, no tear-out - and planing is a real joy.

I'm not saying that you can't get a particular Record or Stanley to work well and I still use mine occasionally, but in my experience buying something better will save a lot of problems and enable you to concentrate on woodwork rather than forever faffing about in an attempt to get your tools to work properly.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (15 Jan 2007)

woodbloke":8fd7a045 said:


> Bugbear - now that is a good tip to recognise the older Record planes...but what do you do if the blade had been replaced at some point? - Rob



To state the obvious - my short cut tip doesn't work! It only applies (accurately) to Record planes anyway.

There are many, many other ways to spot "good quality" planes, but they're detailed and geeky...

BugBear


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## Anonymous (15 Jan 2007)

MIGNAL":2r30nznf said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't?



It's not 'what' but how.

Even a well tuned stanley with hock blade and clifton 2-piece chip breaker just doesn't feel as nice in use and doesn't cut quite the same (hard to put into words) despite the overall price getting quite close to a clifton etc. by this point. The difference is particularly noticeable on more exotic woods with changes in grain direction or on very hard woods where the stanley tended to chatter.

It is one of those - try it and see - kind of things. I thought my stanley #5 was fantastic until I used my first LN bench plane when its weaknesses became apparent.

Ther is also the 'perceived' differences - the quality of the tool is so far removed from any stanley or record (of any age) - it is a pleasure to own and use a high quality tool that a company has invested so much time in design and manufacture.

Also, there is the lack of need to 'tune' them. I want to use tools that I buy, not finish off the manufacturers job for them!!!

Don't get me wrong, the stanley was fine and worked well for years, hence my advice earlier in the thread


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## woodbloke (15 Jan 2007)

Paul Chapman wrote:


> Record and Stanley bench and block planes which I bought in the 1970s


Paul - I bought Record planes of the same vintage and it took me a *long* time over many months to get them to a state were they were half decent....as you know, have now traded them in for something a little better :lol: 

Alf wrote:


> Rob, 'Tis simple. Leave it for someone who's read-up even more of the finer points of spotting a good'un...


Alf, that wouldn't be 'cos you're on 'o they collector people would it?  :lol: - Rob


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## Colin C (15 Jan 2007)

Is it me or is there some one missing from this thread 8-[ :-$


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## Philly (15 Jan 2007)

Who, Col? :?: 
Philly


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## Colin C (15 Jan 2007)

Come on Philly its about buying planes :roll: but if you dont get it, I guess I will have to say or he will be a long soon :wink:


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## Philly (15 Jan 2007)

Buying planes? Glad I don't have a problem in that area......... :lol: 
Philly  
_Butter would'nt melt..._


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## mahking51 (15 Jan 2007)

Nor me.........  
Martin


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## mahking51 (15 Jan 2007)

Well, except for this which landed on my doormat with a lovely taxfree thud!




:twisted: :twisted: 
Cheers,
Martin


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## Alf (15 Jan 2007)

Martin, you do know you'll pay for that in an afterlife, don't you? Probably an eternity planing using a Stanley SB3... :lol:


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## Colin C (15 Jan 2007)

Alf":5ebe8zgx said:


> Martin, you do know you'll pay for that in an afterlife, don't you? Probably an eternity planing using a Stanley SB3... :lol:



I did not know that hell was *that * bad :shock: 

Going to sob in the corner as it might be me


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## Slim (15 Jan 2007)

Well thanks for the plethora of information guys, it will take a little while to digest. But I think the concensus of opinion is that I should go for a couple more expensive planes rather than 3 or 4 cheaper ones.

What will I be using them for?

Well for example, on one of my last projects, I had 3 large panel glue ups. Now jointing and thicknessing isn't a problem as I have the machinery for that. The problem was that the panels were left in the workshop over christmas and new year and when I came back to them, they had bowed slightley. With the tools I had, the only way for me to cure that was by sanding, and it took a long long time. 

One of the other reasons I want some planes is for the flatening of glue joints as try as I might I can never get them to glue up completely flush.

Other than that, it looks really satisfying to get curly shavings!

God! Don't push me down the slippery slope... Please
I think I'd better go check my bank balance again!

Keep the opinions coming.
Many thanks


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## Alf (15 Jan 2007)

Well, Slim, in that case I think you could do worse than follow Mr Charlesworth's example and consider a #5 1/2 or bevel up equivalent. i.e. One expensive plane and really get to grips with it. Should do all you need given the requirements and use of machinery.

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (15 Jan 2007)

Slimjim81":r05jo2lp said:


> One of the other reasons I want some planes is for the flatening of glue joints as try as I might I can never get them to glue up completely flush.



Do you use anything, such as biscuits, loose tongues or dowels to help with the alignment of the boards when gluing up panels? I generally use biscuits but have also used loose tongues and provided the boards are well prepared these can result in the need for very little cleaning up of the joints.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (15 Jan 2007)

:-k :-k ...I wonder if Martin would donate that LN plane to Waka's competition, after all, it would be appropriate recompense for the Waka de Paree thread we all enjoyed so much recently..... :lol: 

Already got me coat on and half way out the door - Rob


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## Slim (15 Jan 2007)

paul,

Yes, I use buscuits. Don't get me wrong they are not far off flat (perhaps 1mm), what I was saying is that it would be nice to be able to flatten them with a few passes of a plane rather than a sander.


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## Paul Chapman (15 Jan 2007)

mahking51":193mzx7s said:


> Well, except for this which landed on my doormat with a lovely taxfree thud!



I bet that didn't come from a car boot sale, Martin :lol: Very nice 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Paul Chapman (15 Jan 2007)

Slimjim81":1enohy0x said:


> paul,
> 
> Yes, I use buscuits. Don't get me wrong they are not far off flat (perhaps 1mm), what I was saying is that it would be nice to be able to flatten them with a few passes of a plane rather than a sander.



Yes, planing is always much nicer than sanding :wink: As you can see, some of us are fans of the #7 plane whereas others prefer something shorter, like a #5.5. Both would do the job and a lot of it is down to personal preference. I reckon your best bet would be to try to find someone nearby who has both (or visit a show where they do demonstrations) and try them out. It can get quite expensive buying what you think you want and then finding that you should have bought the other one  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Philly (15 Jan 2007)

I can't believe Martin came out with a gratuitous gloat like that - unbelieveable :roll: 
I'd never do that. Ever..... :^o 
Nice Anniversary, Martin!
Cheers
Philly


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## Slim (16 Jan 2007)

Ok, I think Ihave made up my mind to go for a single more expensive plane to get me started. 

I have just read Alfs review on the veritas bench planes. It looks like it may be veritas I go for as I really can't justify the price of clifton and LN at the moment.

As I mentioned earlier I will probably be using it mostly for flattening panel glue ups.

Which size would you thibk would be best suited to this?


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## Shivers (16 Jan 2007)

Slimjim81":f98inzym said:


> Ok, I think Ihave made up my mind to go for a single more expensive plane to get me started.
> 
> I have just read Alfs review on the veritas bench planes. It looks like it may be veritas I go for as I really can't justify the price of clifton and LN at the moment.
> 
> ...



why not get a £30 No5 or No6 to start out,theres absolutely nothing wrong with one of those first,i've been in the trade 23+ yrs & used ordinary planes all that time --i used to go to woodworking stores & see all these esoteric brands on offer and i'd see all the nonpro's lusting over them,flattening panels/gluelines is more technique than equipment used.

Sorry but this Fine woodworking mag approach to everything on the forum gets to me.--I mean why have a forum at all when theres fine woodworking mag--rediculous.


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## Anonymous (16 Jan 2007)

Slimjim81":16l4l92h said:


> Ok, I think Ihave made up my mind to go for a single more expensive plane to get me started.
> 
> I have just read Alfs review on the veritas bench planes. It looks like it may be veritas I go for as I really can't justify the price of clifton and LN at the moment.
> 
> ...



A #5 or #5.5

I am surpirsed by your post as Clifton are a lot cheaper than Veritas - and work equally as well (I own both manufacturers planes)


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## Slim (16 Jan 2007)

Tony,

Veritas no 4 1/2 from rutlands £151.95

Clifton No 4 1/2 from axminster £194.31


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## Paul Chapman (16 Jan 2007)

John Bullar did a comparison of the Veritas 5 1/4, Clifton 5 1/2 and Lie Nielsen 5 1/2 which was published in 'Furniture & Cabinetmaking'. Its now on his website here http://www.individualfurniture.com/maker/Planes.htm Might help you to make up your mind.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## MIGNAL (16 Jan 2007)

Strange. 2 of those planes suffer greater backlash than my Stanley.


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## Slim (1 Feb 2007)

Well, I got my new plane today. A veritas #6. I only had about 5 mins to try it out, but got some nice curly shavings off some oak, and a glass smooth finish.

Although it seems to work pretty well out of the box, is there any tuning you would suggest for a brand new plane?

Also, I have the JET whetsone shapener. Do you think this is sufficient for a plane iron, or would you suggest investing in some finer grit wetstones and a honing guide?


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## woodbloke (1 Feb 2007)

Slimjim81 wrote:


> wetstones and a honing guide?


I use DMT diamond stones, leather strop and a Mr C modified Eclipse clone honing guide which works for me, tho' others will be along directly with a differing view - Rob


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## MIGNAL (1 Feb 2007)

Your Veritas should not need any tuning, in fact if you have to do anything other than hone the blade it should be sent back.
Your Jet grinder is used to set the primary bevel on the blade, that will already be done on the new Veritas blade. For future use you may want to invest in some bench sone/stones, either Arkansas, Diamond or Waterstones or the scarysharp method is a cheap alternative in that it uses sheet papers such as silicon carbide (wet and dry). I sharpen a little different to most people in that I go from a 100 grit hand-crank grindstone straight to a 8000 waterstone - nothing inbetween. No honing guide. There are many ways to achieve the same outcome.


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## Paul Chapman (1 Feb 2007)

Slimjim81":1glv90h3 said:


> Also, I have the JET whetsone shapener. Do you think this is sufficient for a plane iron, or would you suggest investing in some finer grit wetstones and a honing guide?



You will see this type of grinder demonstrated at shows for final honing of blades and the final polish put on using the leather wheel. My own view is that this risks rounding over the edge. Like Rob I use diamond stones (extra fine green one last) but other stones are preferred by some. I also use the Eclipse guide then the leather strop, which is glued to some thick MDF to ensure it is flat. I pinched the idea from Rob of using jewellers rouge (sold in a stick - maroon colour) and Vaseline on the strop. The jewellers rouge gives a great polish and the Vaseline stops the build-up of gunge on the strop and keeps it nice and supple. However, I would suggest you keep the blade in the honing guide as you draw the bevel backwards over the strop so you don't round it over. Then do the other side keeping it dead flat.

There are lots of other methods though. Gidon uses some diamond stones then some film (can't remember the name) on them which looked very good. Maybe he'll be along later.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## ike (2 Feb 2007)

> Also, I have the JET whetsone shapener. Do you think this is sufficient for a plane iron, or would you suggest investing in some finer grit wetstones and a honing guide?



The JET stone to my mind produces a reasonably smooth primary grind when prepared with the smooth dressing stone. However, I didn't get great results after finishing on the leather wheel. As I already had waterstones, LV bevel jig etc, I use that still to put on a microbevel (with the 4000 grit stone from an Axminster Icebear kit). I find the combination of the JET and the benchstone makes sharpening the dullest, out of shape blade very quick and easy.

cheers,

Ike


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