# Which plane for flatting a table top



## Mcluma (9 Jun 2005)

I am new to 'fine hand woodworking' so be gentle with me

I need to flatten some sheesham hardwood. so what kind of plane do i need the top is about 500 by 1500 (thats why it doesn't fit through my bench planner without cutting it in half :wink: )

McLuma


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## Alf (9 Jun 2005)

Moved this over here to hand tools, Mcluma; reckon you'll get more responses that way. Not just now from me though. I'm all typed out today. :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (9 Jun 2005)

Hi McLuma,

Do you already have any planes? If not, you cannot go wrong with the LV low angle Jack.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49708&cat=1,41182,48944

Note that the currency which may show up is US dollars as that what I use.

You may want a second blade that is the high angle one, depending on the wood itself.

But, if you want, ripping it in half is also a good option. You do need to take care in order to take a minimal kerf, I use a bandsaw usually. The edges then need carefully joined in order to go back together without disruption of the grain. I do this all the time.


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## Midnight (9 Jun 2005)

McLuma..

best recommendation depends heavily on the specifics of how the top isn't flat... any error across the width of the top is best corrected with something like a jack plane (or similar)... errors along the length are best tackled with something longer..#'s 6,7 or 8..


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## Mcluma (10 Jun 2005)

Well it itsn't flat over the length as well over the width, that is what you get when using reclaimed indian timber.  

So we are looking at a Jack plane :!:


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## Anonymous (10 Jun 2005)

Start with a #7, then Jack. I usually finish it off with a #4.5 smoother, but the Jack should do a great job

On my tops I also like to use the scraper plane to get the final finish rather than sanding as one gets a nice glow rather than that dul, lifeless finish sanding gives us.


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## Alf (10 Jun 2005)

1500? What's that in inches...  'Bout 5'? Hmm, well if we're talking just flattening, then a jointer would be preferred, but a jack would do the job okay. Assuming you want to go beyond flattening into smoothing, then Mike's suggestion covers both bases with one plane just fine. Sheesham's a rosewood, isn't it? Very hard I think? Hmm, you're going to have fun then... :twisted: :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Mcluma (10 Jun 2005)

Yeah, you right about it being a hardwood, that's why i have been playing with the thoughd of ripping it in half, and putting it through the bench planer

So I take Alf, you have still not gone metric [-X

McLuma


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## Alf (10 Jun 2005)

I _started_ metric; it's the evil woodworking influence turned me imperial. :roll:


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## Mcluma (10 Jun 2005)

what makes a plane to be it a jack plane??


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## beech1948 (10 Jun 2005)

mcluma,

I have never actually done the procedure ( very medical this morning) described below but I have seen it done.

1) create a flat frame outside the piece to be flattened. Could be a couple of 2x 's. The essential thing is that they should both be in the same plane both longitudinally and widthways.
2) Build a bridge to hold a router that will slide non the two side pieces
3) procure a 1 inch/35 mil bottom cutting bit for router.
4) use bit to cut across the top slightly overlapping the several cuts.
5) Finish with #7 or #5 set very finely as there should be little to remove...possibly use a scraper plane instead.

I saw this done on a mahogany top which had slightly slipped out of level registration on glue up...about 28"x84" in size. Worked very well and was quite quick.

There thats todays idea dumped...good luck


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## sxlalan (10 Jun 2005)

the following describes the above

Planing with a router

Alan


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## Alf (10 Jun 2005)

Tsk. Everyone knows you can't get a 1" cutter for a #71. D'oh! #-o :wink: 



Mcluma":3lstnqsd said:


> what makes a plane to be it a jack plane??


Size. Salaman reckons anything between 12" - 18" long and blade width between 1 3/4" - 2 1/4", although the #5.5 goes up to 2 3/8" wide blade of course. And what you do with it too, if we want to get pedantic. But we don't want to do that. :shock: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (10 Jun 2005)

Mcluma":191qebe9 said:


> what makes a plane to be it a jack plane??



Such an innocent sounding question :twisted: .

Since hand tools go way back in history and across all cultures, nomenclature can be very tricky. To oversimplify, a jack plane is roughly 12" - 18" long and the blade is cambered (takes a deeper cut in the middle). It is normally set to take heavier cuts to quickly and roughly dimension a workpiece. 

So why are people recommending the LV Low Angle *Jack* for flattening a large panel? Because the LV is actually a panel plane. A panel plane is similar to a jack in size but the blade is straight across and it is set for a fine cut. The LV would be a fine choice for final flattening and smoothing a large panel. 

For initial flattening, choosing a plane depends on how out of flat your panel is. If you need to remove 1/4" you don't want to make 125 passes at .001" per pass. The goal is to remove as much wood as possible without getting tearout below your finished level. A jack is good for removing high spots quickly. A longer plane with a very slightly cambered blade (called a try plane) is good for getting the panel flat. The final flattening and smoothing can then be done with a panel or smoothing plane.

Trying to do everything with one plane is like trying to do everything with one grit of sandpaper, possible but not efficient.


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## Frank D. (10 Jun 2005)

sxlalan":1rhx2knf said:


> the following describes the above
> 
> Planing with a router



Adam Cherubini discussed a method of rubbing two benches (benchtops) together with bench grit. A little awkward but less noisy and safer than a router. Less chances of eating up the bench too. :wink:


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## Chris Knight (10 Jun 2005)

Frank,
You (or Adam) really should know that you need three benchtops for this method - otherwise you will get rounded tops as the two in use develop male/female curves!

It's the same with straightedges.


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## Alf (10 Jun 2005)

I think someone mentioned that at the time. Makes the whole thing impossible. Two benches, maybe. But who has three? :roll: 



Roger Nixon":3n24akwa said:


> So why are people recommending the LV Low Angle Jack for flattening a large panel? Because the LV is actually a panel plane. A panel plane is similar to a jack in size but the blade is straight across and it is set for a fine cut. The LV would be a fine choice for final flattening and smoothing a large panel.


Ah, Roger _does_ want to get pedantic... :wink: :lol: That's what I mean by it depending what you do with it. Yes, the LVLAJ, or BUPP (Bevel Up Panel Plane) does lend itself naturally to panel plane activities, but it _will_ work as a "proper" jack. Or a jointer. You just need to camber the blade, _not_ using the MkII honing guide of course... :roll: Anyway, we're trying to gently coax him onto the Slope here. No need to scare him off with talk of not being able to do everything efficiently with one plane. Time enough to find that out when he's safely sliding... :twisted: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (10 Jun 2005)

Alf":1neqa32e said:


> Anyway, we're trying to gently coax him onto the Slope here. No need to scare him off with talk of not being able to do everything efficiently with one plane. Time enough to find that out when he's safely sliding... :twisted: :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Ever the gentle one  . This question reminded me of Pam Niedermeyer's experience when she purchased a jack (authentic to 18th century details) plane from Clarke & Williams. She said the plane was quite different from what she expected.


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## ydb1md (10 Jun 2005)

Frank D.":36yde3x3 said:


> Adam Cherubini discussed a method of rubbing two benches (benchtops) together . . . :wink:



Wouldn't that produce some baby benchtops? :lol:


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## ike (10 Jun 2005)

...or start a fire. :?


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## Midnight (10 Jun 2005)

> 1) create a flat frame outside the piece to be flattened. Could be a couple of 2x 's. The essential thing is that they should both be in the same plane both longitudinally and widthways.
> 2) Build a bridge to hold a router that will slide non the two side pieces
> 3) procure a 1 inch/35 mil bottom cutting bit for router.
> 4) use bit to cut across the top slightly overlapping the several cuts.
> 5) Finish with #7 or #5 set very finely as there should be little to remove...possibly use a scraper plane instead.



beech... no dis-respect intended but..... och away wi ye man... by the time ye've scuttered aboot buildin yon contraption I could ha'e the job done and the kettle on plannin the next one..... sheesh.....

McLuma...

if your budget is limited to just the 1 plane... get a jack... and make it a good one... it has its work cut out for it... either a 5 or a 5 1/2...

first point... if you rip the top and run it through the thicknesser...it'll come out every bit as warped as it went in.......only it'll be thinner....

you need to be able to read the panel... find out where the high spots are and mark them, 'cos its them that need to be planed down... To see what's going on you'll need a good long straight edge and a pair of winding sticks... use the winding sticks to see where the warp is and to judge just how bad it is... 

If the degree of warp is worse than the minimum tolerable thickness of your material... stop there... it'll never come out right...

assuming the warp and twist is recoverable... start by getting your blade as sharp as possible, set the frog fairly fine, adjust the blade to take a reasonable shaving, clamp the board down (use wedges under any high spots to stop it rocking if you need to) and start to work down the high spots. Take shavings across the grain, preferably working in overlapping diagonals until you've roughed out the worst of the high spots... turning the board around to plane from the opposite side should produce a herring-bone effect when planing across the diagonals.

stop periodically (for a breather if nothing else), check your progress with the straight edge and winding sticks to gauge how far you've yet to go...

once you get to the point where you're reasonably happy that the top's free of cup, twist and bow, re-tune the plane; this time you want to adjust the frog for a real fine shaving. If you haven't done so already, clip the corners off the blade by drawing it back over the stone gradually rocking the blade outwards quite aggressively; this will rid the blade of its tendency to leave harsh lines at the edges of each shaving.. set the blade to take as fine a shaving as you can (any finer and it'll be producing dust) and gradually work the board by planing along the grain and working with the grain (the plane will tell you in no uncertain terms when its working against the grain)...

Again, check your progress periodically with the straight edge and winding sticks; pay attention to areas that case the straight edge or sticks to rock, see where the high spot is and smooth it till its flush...

Planing isn't rocket science; its a slow, patient, methodical process that will generate the desired result provided you take care of the high spots...
remember that five minutes spent checking is far better than an hour spent removing a low spot that wasn't already there when you started...

Last point... once the top's nice and true, you need to figure out why the hell it warped in the first place... from what I've read, this wood should be stable when its been dried to a moisture content of around 9%; your reclaimed stock should be pretty close to that figure by now so I'd guess that the cause was either incorrect finishing (the top has only been finished on one side for example) or working the wood before it had had sufficient time to acclimatize to the conditions in your surroundings...


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## Anonymous (11 Jun 2005)

Alf":3r2vldp0 said:


> No need to scare him off with talk of not being able to do everything efficiently with one plane. Time enough to find that out when he's safely sliding... :twisted: :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I thought you only used one plane these days Alf - but with varying angles on the blade


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## Alf (11 Jun 2005)

Maybe one _bench_ plane (mainly), but there's blocks, rebates, shoulders, plough, combination, moulding...

Rats. Now look what you've made me do. I'm sure I just heard running feet heading away from the top of The Slope... #-o 

Cheers, Alf


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Jun 2005)

> A jack is good for removing high spots quickly. A longer plane with a very slightly cambered blade (called a try plane) is good for getting the panel flat. The final flattening and smoothing can then be done with a panel or smoothing plane.



I was planing 3 foot long Red Gum boards today. These were cut from 4x4 rough sawn posts, excess timber salvaged from a building site. This red gum is a pale pink timber. 

Well, a sharp Smoothcut blade in my well-tuned Stanley #7 did not cut smoothly, and in fact did not do more than tearout every few inches. I switched to a high angle HNT Gordon Try Plane, with a fine mouth, and this left a beautiful finish, but did the job ever so slowly. So I tried a LV LA Jack with a 50 degree cutting angle. Not as good as the Gordon (I needed a higher angle blade) but reasonable and much faster. Finally finished with a LV LA Smoother with 62 degree cutting angle - just magnificent. The result was clean, tearout-free boards. 

Working on these boards made me realise just how useful the forthcoming LV LA Jointer is going to be.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## MikeW (11 Jun 2005)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> ...Finally finished with a *LV LA Smoother with 62 degree cutting angle *- just magnificent. The result was clean, tearout-free boards.
> 
> Working on these boards made me realise just how useful the forthcoming *LV LA Jointer *is going to be.
> 
> ...



I completely agree. I was doing some paduak, what with its interlocked grain. Ended up using the LV LA smoother at the end, though I did use my Knight 60 degree heavy coffin once the lighter LV dulled. Both did a tremendous job.

In fact, I have two blades for the LV LA smoother--one to make a 50 deg cutting angle, the other a 60 + angle (don't know what the final secondary by hand did to it  ). Now I need to order another blade for it to have something for the occasional softwood...

The LV LA jointer is one I'll add as soon as it is available. But really, just one more plane...Well, ok. I'll also get the heavy LA LV smoother. But really, then that's it...

Anyone wish to buy some other planes to support my new want list? Gotta make room :twisted:


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## Philly (11 Jun 2005)

Mike
I have recently overcome a long and expensive case of "Handplane Wallet" and was given a clean bill of heath by the Doc. So no, I won't take you up on your offer, thanks.
Mind you, I wouldn't mind the new Super Smoother too! And would like a look at the Scrub-I don't need one, just interested, you know....  
Nurse! My medication!!! :lol: :roll: 
Philly


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## Alf (11 Jun 2005)

Philly":xkzow53c said:


> I have recently overcome a long and expensive case of "Handplane Wallet" and was given a clean bill of heath by the Doc.<snip>
> Mind you, I wouldn't mind the new Super Smoother too! And would like a look at the Scrub-I don't need one, just interested, you know....


So not so much recovery as a short remission... :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Philly (11 Jun 2005)

:lol: 
Philly :wink:


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## MikeW (11 Jun 2005)

Philly":8rd4ufnd said:


> Mike
> ...So no, I won't take you up on your offer, thanks.


That's ok...you don't really think I was serious, did you :!:
Oh no. I need 'em all :lol: 

*Edit:* Actually, this little glib bit help me to decide that I really am going to be offing a few. I've decided that though I will end up getting the couple LV LA planes, half of what I do have are going away. There's a list on another forum, in a far far away land...



Philly":8rd4ufnd said:


> Mind you, I wouldn't mind the new Super Smoother too!


"Go ahead" (the little voice says). "You do really _need _one. By the time it's released, you'll have forgotten to take your meds anyway..."



Philly":8rd4ufnd said:


> And would like a look at the Scrub-I don't need one, just interested, you know.... ...Philly


"Yes, I know" (the little voice continues). "I know. We all _know _that we only want to _see _it, to _feel _it in the hand, to _use _it just a little, to, you know, be able to say we don't _really _need one..."


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## MikeW (11 Jun 2005)

Alf":2wb1fz0a said:


> Philly":2wb1fz0a said:
> 
> 
> > I have recently overcome a long and expensive case of "Handplane Wallet" and was given a clean bill of heath by the Doc.<snip>
> ...


To quote (well, to apply it to this issue anyway) the last line of one of my favorite poems:

...and what's one more tool, more or less.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Jun 2005)

Mike wrote:


> "Go ahead" (the little voice says). "You do really need one. By the time it's released, you'll have forgotten to take your meds anyway..."



LV should bring in a Try-Now-Return-Later offer. You know, "use this plane for one week and, if unsatisfied, we will send you in return a paid-up course of psychotherapy". They know how addictive these are, and the unlikelihood of anyone later wanting to give one up.  

So there you are, Philly, just _borrow_ one for a while. You can return it _later_. :lol: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Midnight (12 Jun 2005)

> And would like a look at the Scrub-I don't need one, just interested, you know....



interested huh..???

Ahem...

slope's got him good n proper...


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## beech1948 (12 Jun 2005)

Midnight said:


> > 1)
> >
> > beech... no dis-respect intended but..... och away wi ye man... by the time ye've scuttered aboot buildin yon contraption I could ha'e the job done and the kettle on plannin the next one..... sheesh.....quote]
> >
> > ...


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## Alf (12 Jun 2005)

beech1948":26g21g9y said:


> Used LN Large Scraper plane to do a fine clean up of the top....48 minutes as I got some tearout which had to be cleaned up using a plane with York pitch blade and very fine shavings.


On a _benchtop_?! Yikes. :shock:


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## Midnight (12 Jun 2005)

> Does'nt seem slow to me Midnight..in fact in terms of effort it was way less than doing it all by planning....compared to some of the times I have heard for planing a top flat and sqaure



when you put it like that... no it doesn't, I agree, but then you don't say how much material needed to be removed to get the bench "true"...

btw how did it turn out..????


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## beech1948 (12 Jun 2005)

Midnight,

Ahhh! I guess I forgot to say that the top was pretty flat. Maximum amounts removed were maybe 1mm a RHS, centre was pretty flat anyway and almost nothing was removed. LHS was bowed up by 2mm for about the final 250mm. One LHS corner was a bowed/twisated upwards by maybe 5 mm for 250 mm square area.

The bottom was pretty flat but a couple of the central strips of the glue up were projecting below the top by maybe 3mm.

Not a lot of adjustment really.

I must admit to a perverse streak that seeing your email I felt it was worth having a go just to see what was possible...I can at leat say that I have used this approach now.

Alf,
The tearout was really due to a small part of the beech top which had a very swirly or convoluted grain..almost like a large branch begining or a crotch piece. The area was quite small but a pipper to fix. In truth it is now maybe 1 mm below the rest of the top for a piece about 200x75mm.

regards
alan
PS I like my benches to be as good as furnitiure..I know I'm an ancient perfectionist but I like it that way so there.. :twisted:


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## Midnight (12 Jun 2005)

> Ahhh! I guess I forgot to say that the top was pretty flat.



reading the amount of work it needed... I'll stand by my initial remark...

milk n sugar..?? :wink: 

I'm guessing that my #6 woulda had the top flat in around the same time it took you to make the jig and complete the stock removal with the router... the difference being that my #6 doesn't tear out... already has the high angle frog fitted..

still... gotta admire a guy with a thran streak... nice technique to have in the armoury...



> PS I like my benches to be as good as furnitiure..I know I'm an ancient perfectionist but I like it that way so there..



there's another way to be...???? :wink:


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## Mcluma (13 Jun 2005)

Ok I think, I know now which one to go for and 

the order is in for 

a 4 1/2 smoothing plane

and a number 5 jack plane

Well I am looking out for a good deal that is 

Thanks for all the advise =D> 

McLuma


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## Anonymous (13 Jun 2005)

Good choice McLuma


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## Mcluma (13 Jun 2005)

Well I couldn't resist of trowing in a scraper,

And it will all be here tomorrow \/ 

To bad it will have to stay wrapped up till the weekend  

McLuma


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## Midnight (13 Jun 2005)

yupp.... should be able to do some good with them....


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