# Road Tax rates



## geek84 (19 Sep 2020)

Good Morning Folks

I hope you're all well. A friend of a friend was boasting to me the other day that he only pays £12 per year for his road tax. He has a BMW. He failed to tell me how he managed to reduce his road tax charge, even though I asked him repeatedly !!

Is this really possible?

Thank You


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## Woody2Shoes (19 Sep 2020)

It's hard to see current or historic rates that equate to £12 per year:





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Vehicle tax rates (V149 and V149/1)


Rates of vehicle tax for all types of vehicle.




www.gov.uk





It's possible he was over-simplifying (or talking scribble, who knows)...


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## marcros (19 Sep 2020)

the rates are quite complex because you need to know a few variables. I dont remember any form of road tax that was that low though, other than being zero.


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## lurker (19 Sep 2020)

doubt that it is that low but, my sons both have VWs and pay a third of the road tax that we pay on our Mini and Honda. 

The reason is that they benefit from the fraud VW committed a few years ago. I am at a loss as to why the UK government have not been able to get the difference back from VW. it must add up to billions.


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## Nigel Burden (19 Sep 2020)

A few years ago there was a £20 rate. Our 2012 Skoda Octavia 1.6 tdi is £30, as is our sons 2016 Seat Ibiza 1.2 tsi. From 2017 some of these low rates were abolished and replaced with a flat rate of, IIAC £140. Some previously tax exempt cars such as the hybrid Toyotas were included in this. Our daughters 2006 Mini Cooper S Checkmate is something like £340 though.

Nigel.


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## Terry - Somerset (19 Sep 2020)

It may just be the monthly charge if you pay direct debit or standing order.


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## Myfordman (19 Sep 2020)

Nigel Burden said:


> A few years ago there was a £20 rate. Our 2012 Skoda Octavia 1.6 tdi is £30, as is our sons 2016 Seat Ibiza 1.2 tsi. From 2017 some of these low rates were abolished and replaced with a flat rate of, IIAC £140. Some previously tax exempt cars such as the hybrid Toyotas were included in this. Our daughters 2006 Mini Cooper S Checkmate is something like £340 though.
> 
> Nigel.


There still is a £20 rate. Applies to my 2015 2l tdi skoda estate


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## Lons (19 Sep 2020)

He must surely have it wrong and it's a monthly cost but it still doesn't equate exactly to current rates as there is a % added on for credit payment.

£20 pa does still exist as that's what I pay for our 65 plate Skoda Citigo, My Merc is £145 while my wife's current Mini Cooper clubman is £125 and her new cooper hatch will be £140 after the first year premium loading.
68 plate motorhome is £165 so it is all a bit complicated.


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## artie (19 Sep 2020)

It's vehicle excise duty

I believe there is a £15 band but only for the first year.

Who knows, it's like everything else the gov messes with, it ends up nobody really understands it.


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## lurker (19 Sep 2020)

Recently paid our 2005 mini- £205


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## DBT85 (19 Sep 2020)

I long for the days where my Superb doesn't run me £400+ a year.


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## Racers (19 Sep 2020)

Bike 750 petrol £80

Car 2.0l diesel £30

Not right is it.

Pete


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2020)

artie said:


> It's vehicle excise duty ...



Only because the income from it is no longer spent on the roads. Some vehicles are exempt, but no one without a vehicle on the road pays it, ergo it's a road tax. QED.


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## Inspector (19 Sep 2020)

Here it is in the price of fuel. Supposed to go back into infrastructure but most just goes into general revenue. More you burn the more you pay. Only real farmers get a break as they can buy fuel that is cheaper and has a dye in it that stains the fuel system. If it is in a BMW they get in trouble. If in the farm trucks no problem.  

Pete


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2020)

Our agricultural diesel is dyed red. Southern Ireland's agricultural diesel is dyed green. Some smart arssse discovered that when the two are mixed, the colour drop out, so tankers started to to S. I. picking up say 50,000 litres then going through N.I. picking up another 50,000 and taking it back to Liverpool and selling it on as road diesel. It causes mega problems with advanced diesel engines apparently as it lacks the necessary lubricants.


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## AndyT (19 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Only because the income from it is no longer spent on the roads. Some vehicles are exempt, but no one without a vehicle on the road pays it, ergo it's a road tax. QED.



The tax that was called Road Tax was abolished in 1937. 









Is there any such thing as 'road tax'?


Cyclists often report that aggressive motorists justify their behaviour on the basis that they pay “road tax”. But there is no such thing.



www.bbc.co.uk





But hypothecation is back.

This is from the Government summary of the 2018 budget:

*5.3 Modernising transport*
National Roads Fund – The government is delivering its commitment to hypothecate English Vehicle Excise Duty to roads spending, announcing that the National Roads Fund will be £28.8 billion between 2020-25. The Fund will provide long-term certainty for roads investment, including the new major roads network and large local major roads schemes, such as the North Devon Link Road.





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Budget 2018







www.gov.uk


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## Lons (19 Sep 2020)

DBT85 said:


> I long for the days where my Superb doesn't run me £400+ a year.


Yeah me too, when I said mine was £145 I hadn't included the extra premium tax of £320 pa on top of that for 5 years.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2020)

AndyT said:


> *5.3 Modernising transport*
> National Roads Fund – The government is delivering its commitment to hypothecate English Vehicle Excise Duty to roads spending, announcing that the National Roads Fund will be £28.8 billion between 2020-25. The Fund will provide long-term certainty for roads investment, including the new major roads network and large local major roads schemes, such as the North Devon Link Road.



Sophistry, Andy, on their part. It doesn't mean in any way that income fron Road tax/Vehicle Exicise Duty is ring fenced for road expenditure/maintenance, and it doesn't mean it'll happen. It's a sound bite - what is the connection between V.E.D and the "National Road Fund"? I think we should be told.


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## ManowarDave (20 Sep 2020)

DBT85 said:


> I long for the days where my Superb doesn't run me £400+ a year.


Top Trumps. £565/year for me.


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## DBT85 (20 Sep 2020)

ManowarDave said:


> Top Trumps. £565/year for me.


For a Skoda though?


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## John Brown (20 Sep 2020)

I think you'll find that most cyclists who get shouted at by irate motorists, do pay vehicle excise duty. I'll wager it's a vèry small percentage of leisure cyclists that doesn't(don't?) have a car at home.


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## Limey Lurker (20 Sep 2020)

Well, a BMW owner wouldn't be wrong, would he?


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## mark2256 (20 Sep 2020)

Hi All
I run a 2006 Citroën C5 1.6HDI road TAX £145.00 per year or £14.00 per month. However, I don't buy Diesel at the pumps at least I haven't for the past 18 months. I have started making my own Biodiesel at a cost of round 50p per litre against £1.199p per litre, and the car runs cleaner.


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## guineafowl21 (20 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Only because the income from it is no longer spent on the roads. Some vehicles are exempt, but no one without a vehicle on the road pays it, ergo it's a road tax. QED.


Had many an argument on this. It’s not a de jure road tax, but it is a de facto road tax. You have to pay money to the Treasury (tax) to use or keep a car on the road (er, road).

We laymen don’t define tax on where it is spent, but what it’s levied for - you get income, you pay income tax.


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## MusicMan (20 Sep 2020)

Zero for my Nissan Leaf <smirk>.


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## Distinterior (20 Sep 2020)

My wife has a 2016 2.0 L TDi Golf R Line that she has had from new and its only £20 per year Road Tax...! I think it has something to do with the engine Auto Stop/Start function...?


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## DBT85 (20 Sep 2020)

Distinterior said:


> My wife has a 2016 2.0 L TDi Golf R Line that she has had from new and its only £20 per year Road Tax...! I think it has something to do with the engine Auto Stop/Start function...?


The stop start will help but if I recall road tax is based on emissions. Until such time as no cars emit anything at which point there will, of course be no road tax.


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## stuartpaul (20 Sep 2020)

DBT85 said:


> The stop start will help but if I recall road tax is based on emissions. Until such time as no cars emit anything at which point there will, of course be no road tax.



In which case they'll just find something else to tax (tyres, screenwash, USB ports?)


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## DBT85 (20 Sep 2020)

stuartpaul said:


> In which case they'll just find something else to tax (tyres, screenwash, USB ports?)


Naturally. Perhaps a window tax


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## Inspector (20 Sep 2020)

Flush tax. 

Pete


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## numpty1 (20 Sep 2020)

geek84 said:


> Good Morning Folks
> 
> I hope you're all well. A friend of a friend was boasting to me the other day that he only pays £12 per year for his road tax. He has a BMW. He failed to tell me how he managed to reduce his road tax charge, even though I asked him repeatedly !!
> 
> ...


I checked csn't find any vehicle tax £12


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## numpty1 (20 Sep 2020)

DBT85 said:


> The stop start will help but if I recall road tax is based on emissions. Until such time as no cars emit anything at which point there will, of course be no road tax.


You are joking, ever seen a pig fly? they will tax you just for owning the vehicle. The state of our roads you wouldn't notice any difference if you had square wheels, 
Its claimed yrs back much of road tax goes on defence, What a waste the enemy is already here.
.


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## Yorkieguy (20 Sep 2020)

I have a 1.6L Hyundai i130 diesel which I bought new it Sept 2016 on which I pay zero road tax. That's because at the time, government policy was based on low CO2 emissions, and the government was still encouraging people to buy diesel cars. I can't recall the CO2 level at which zero tax was levied. When I bought it, I think there was a nominal £20 in the first year only. when I sell the car, as I will when the five year warranty expiries in August next year, a new owner will have to pay whatever tax applies then. Of course, now, diesel cars are demonised and the objective is, we're told, to reduce nitrous oxide emissions, so next year, when I buy a new car, it will be petrol (the consequences of which is already increased CO2 levels). What I most certainly will not be buying is electric. Electric cars have a dreadful 'environmental footprint'. True, their tailpipe emissions are water vapour so it reduces pollution in urban environments, but while ever power stations use fossil fuels to generate electricity your 'tailpipe' is at the power station. What's more, the mining and refining of lithium and other minerals which go into and manufacturing of batteries for electric cars (which have a limited life-span before they're recycled) is extremely polluting and energy intensive. Hydrogen then? Most of it is still made from fossil fuels - not from electrolysis of water (which is very energy intensive).


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## thepeg (20 Sep 2020)

Well, coming to a country near you soon. Abolishment of all taxes except for one, sales tax on new non-essential items (at around 15 to 20%). It's called GESARA. Do your research


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## DBT85 (20 Sep 2020)

Yorkieguy said:


> I have a 1.6L Hyundai i130 diesel which I bought new it Sept 2016 on which I pay zero road tax. That's because at the time, government policy was based on low CO2 emissions, and the government was still encouraging people to buy diesel cars. I can't recall the CO2 level at which zero tax was levied. When I bought it, I think there was a nominal £20 in the first year only. when I sell the car, as I will when the five year warranty expiries in August next year, a new owner will have to pay whatever tax applies then. Of course, now, diesel cars are demonised and the objective is, we're told, to reduce nitrous oxide emissions, so next year, when I buy a new car, it will be petrol (the consequences of which is already increased CO2 levels). What I most certainly will not be buying is electric. Electric cars have a dreadful 'environmental footprint'. True, their tailpipe emissions are water vapour so it reduces pollution in urban environments, but while ever power stations use fossil fuels to generate electricity your 'tailpipe' is at the power station. What's more, the mining and refining of lithium and other minerals which go into and manufacturing of batteries for electric cars (which have a limited life-span before they're recycled) is extremely polluting and energy intensive. Hydrogen then? Most of it is still made from fossil fuels - not from electrolysis of water (which is very energy intensive).


There are no emissions at all from an electric car unless it's a hydrogen car, and the energy generated at a power station (assuming you aren't paying for a green tariff) is still a lot more efficiently produced than that of a petrol or even diesel engine. Emissions are localised away from town centres and in theory can be collected.

With regard to the footprint of making the car and its batteries, I seem to recall that over their lifetime an electric car (including its manufacture) is half as pollutant as an ICE car, and that's assuming 60% of your electricity comes from coal or gas. With coal near dead in the UK at last it gets even better.

Electric cars are coming at pace and they are here to stay. The only reason I don't have one is that I only got my Superb 280 nearly 3 years ago. In probably 5-7 years time something in my price range will appear and I'll get one. For many people in the UK at least range anxiety shouldn't be an issue either.


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## artie (20 Sep 2020)

thepeg said:


> Well, coming to a country near you soon. Abolishment of all taxes except for one, sales tax on new non-essential items (at around 15 to 20%). It's called GESARA. Do your research


I googled it and got references to Q anon and a pic of The Donald, with a beard.


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## lurker (20 Sep 2020)

DBT85 said:


> There are no emissions at all from an electric car unless it's a hydrogen car, and the energy generated at a power station (assuming you aren't paying for a green tariff) is still a lot more efficiently produced than that of a petrol or even diesel engine. Emissions are localised away from town centres and in theory can be collected.
> 
> With regard to the footprint of making the car and its batteries, I seem to recall that over their lifetime an electric car (including its manufacture) is half as pollutant as an ICE car, and that's assuming 60% of your electricity comes from coal or gas. With coal near dead in the UK at last it gets even better.
> 
> Electric cars are coming at pace and they are here to stay. The only reason I don't have one is that I only got my Superb 280 nearly 3 years ago. In probably 5-7 years time something in my price range will appear and I'll get one. For many people in the UK at least range anxiety shouldn't be an issue either.


Electric cars have similar emissions to diesel and petrol cars. The only difference is the exhaust pipe is hundreds of miles away.


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## collectors (21 Sep 2020)

Was thinking of a new car this year, but i am being green & recycling & also aiming for the newest car before 2017 that has a £30 road tax "or less" mainly to not give the govomentg any more money to waste. I am just making a list of the cheap taxable cars. But it's looking like a skoda estate.


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## Woody2Shoes (21 Sep 2020)

lurker said:


> Electric cars have similar emissions to diesel and petrol cars. The only difference is the exhaust pipe is hundreds of miles away.


Not in the UK - but perhaps in parts of the US or India or somewhere this old info came from. Our electricity grid is steadily de-carbonising. Most days for the last six months more than 40% of our leccy has been generated without burning anything (fossils or 'biomass'). Last year, 54% of our leccy came from 'low-carbon' sources:









Analysis: UK low-carbon electricity generation stalls in 2019 - Carbon Brief


The amount of electricity generated by low-carbon sources in the UK stalled in 2019, Carbon Brief analysis shows. Low-carbon electricity output from wind, solar, nuclear, hydro and biomass rose by just 1 terawatt hour (TWh, less than 1%) in 2019. It represents the smallest annual increase in a...




www.carbonbrief.org


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## lurker (21 Sep 2020)

Woody2Shoes said:


> Not in the UK - but perhaps in parts of the US or India or somewhere this old info came from. Our electricity grid is steadily de-carbonising. Most days for the last six months more than 40% of our leccy has been generated without burning anything (fossils or 'biomass'). Last year, 54% of our leccy came from 'low-carbon' sources:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you imagine all the equipment for the "fossil free" generation is made? A turbine takes years to become carbon neutral and that's the best of all of those you quote.


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## Woody2Shoes (21 Sep 2020)

lurker said:


> How do you imagine all the equipment for the "fossil free" generation is made? A turbine takes years to become carbon neutral and that's the best of all of those you quote.



That's a different point. Nothing's for nothing - it costs a certain amount of carbon to build a coal-fired power station or a wind/solar farm. Are you suggesting we should stop using electricity (I'll asssume you don't think we should just carry on burning fossils)? What is happening is, in effect, a "spend to save" measure - not ideal, but better than most of the realistic alternatives.


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## Doris (21 Sep 2020)

Have a 1999 Toyota Yaris and pay £173 a year. Someone told me that once it reaches 25 years old I won't need to pay tax on it ever again as it consider a classic car. Is this true?


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## artie (21 Sep 2020)

Doris said:


> Have a 1999 Toyota Yaris and pay £173 a year. Someone told me that once it reaches 25 years old I won't need to pay tax on it ever again as it consider a classic car. Is this true?


More like 40 years.


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## Noel (21 Sep 2020)

It used to be 25 yrs to qualify for classic/historic exemption, unfortunately it's now 40 yrs. So a way to go yet.


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## lurker (21 Sep 2020)

hard luck Doris.






Historic (classic) vehicles: MOT and vehicle tax


Vehicle tax exemptions and MOT exemptions for vehicles built or first registered before 1982.




www.gov.uk


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## Bob Chapman (21 Sep 2020)

As Andy T says it's not a road tax - although many people, myself included, call it that. However words matter. They convey meaning and the wrong words may convey the wrong meaning. No matter how many of us call it a 'road' tax, the fact remains that it isn't. 
In order to drive a motor vehicle anywhere except on private land, a driver needs two licenses. One is to prove physical and mental ability to drive the vehicle safely and is, logically, called a driving license. The second license is to _to be allowed to actually_ drive it somewhere and is a _vehicle _license. It's not for the road, it's for the vehicle. 
This second license is a bit like a fishing license which allows the holder to fish in a river, pond, lake etc. It does not convey 'ownership' of the river and nor does it give the fisherman any extra rights over the river. Other river users eg. canoeists, houseboats or small boys throwing stones, can continue to use the river - often to the annoyance of the fishermen - even though they have not paid any license fee.
In a similar way pedestrians and cyclists have an absolute right to use the roads without paying a fee for a license, although as John Brown points out, many cyclists are, in fact, also motorists and so will have paid for a motor vehicle license which remains unused while they are on their bicycles. 
Motorways have the distinction of being the only British Roads where pedestrians and cyclists are _not _allowed, and in this respect I think they are unique.
Bob


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## Lons (21 Sep 2020)

numpty1 said:


> You are joking, ever seen a pig fly? they will tax you just for owning the vehicle.



They already do if you buy a car with an original list price including accessories that's over £40k you have to pay additional premium of £320- pa for 5 years starting with the second taxable period.
E.g. my car was a 6 week old demonstrator with a list price of £47k, I paid well under £40k, it had to be taxed again from my purchase date which is when the premium rate started so 5 years at £320 is extra tax of £1600 which has absolutely nothing to do with emissions, If I sell it on before then the new owner pays the balance of that tax.


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## Doris (21 Sep 2020)

Noel said:


> It used to be 25 yrs to qualify for classic/historic exemption, unfortunately it's now 40 yrs. So a way to go yet.



Oh well.


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## artie (21 Sep 2020)

Bob Chapman said:


> The second license is to _to be allowed to actually_ drive it somewhere and is a _vehicle _license. It's not for the road, it's for the vehicle.



You don't have to pay it, if you don't take it on the road.


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## sploo (22 Sep 2020)

artie said:


> You don't have to pay it, if you don't take it on the road.


True, but that's statistically an unlikely scenario. I.e. if you tax vehicles based on their emission output then they're unlikely to be doing too many miles (and emitting pollutants) if they're not on the road.


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## SamTheJarvis (22 Sep 2020)

The future is wooden my friends, whether you like it or not.


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## sploo (22 Sep 2020)

SamTheJarvis said:


> The future is wooden my friends, whether you like it or not.


We're all going to be driving Morgans?


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## guineafowl21 (22 Sep 2020)

Bob Chapman said:


> The second license is to _to be allowed to actually_ drive it somewhere and is a _vehicle _license. It's not for the road, it's for the vehicle.


The tax is linked to a vehicle, but is only levied if it’s used or kept on public roads. You can keep a vehicle on private land and not pay road tax, because you’re not using the road.


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## marcros (22 Sep 2020)

What is the argument against adding the "road tax" to the cost of fuel, so that those doing more miles or with less efficient cars pay more, those doing few miles pay less. 

There must be a downside to that approach or it would have been done but I don't know what the counter argument is.


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## numpty1 (22 Sep 2020)

Lons said:


> They already do if you buy a car with an original list price including accessories that's over £40k you have to pay additional premium of £320- pa for 5 years starting with the second taxable period.
> E.g. my car was a 6 week old demonstrator with a list price of £47k, I paid well under £40k, it had to be taxed again from my purchase date which is when the premium rate started so 5 years at £320 is extra tax of £1600 which has absolutely nothing to do with emissions, If I sell it on before then the new owner pays the balance of that tax.


Doesn't this show the BBC 1 program RIP OFF BRITAIN is right. The governmrnt encourages yiu to buy a new car,then charge you for doing just that. My Peugeot combi 52 yr 2lt "eco engine" made me purchase, in 2004 Road tax £130 now 200 next likely a lot higher which will make my vehicle worthless and to add turning 80 Nov my insurance due Dec1 will sky rocket like Sheila Hancocks ( Tony's daughter).to £600+ They think you turn into a stock car racer reaching having multiple crashes charging down road at enormous speed of 30 in 30mph zone. Another lot of racketeers. The other is young drivers should have guvenors fitted so their speed is max 50 and when on motorways keeps them in nearside lane. 



80.


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## sploo (22 Sep 2020)

marcros said:


> What is the argument against adding the "road tax" to the cost of fuel, so that those doing more miles or with less efficient cars pay more, those doing few miles pay less.
> 
> There must be a downside to that approach or it would have been done but I don't know what the counter argument is.


I always accepted that would probably be the most fair solution (even when I previously used to do a large number of miles per year). That said, it would tax fuel _use_, but not how the fuel is _used_. I.e. Someone using 10 litres in an old car may be outputting significantly more pollution than 10 litres being put through a newer design.

Depends what you're trying to tax too; if the argument is that part of the tax is for maintaining roads then a motorbike probably does much less damage than a large car or HGV; even if it then burns the same amount of fuel. However, you don't have a full CAT and filters on a bike, so I suppose it probably outputs more harmful gasses than a car.


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## thepeg (22 Sep 2020)

Seems like some subjects (the truth) are verboten here


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## sploo (22 Sep 2020)

thepeg said:


> Seems like some subjects (the truth) are verboten here


Such as.... ?


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## Terry - Somerset (22 Sep 2020)

> Sophistry, Andy, on their part. It doesn't mean in any way that income fron Road tax/Vehicle Exicise Duty is ring fenced for road expenditure/maintenance, and it doesn't mean it'll happen. It's a sound bite - what is the connection between V.E.D and the "National Road Fund"? I think we should be told.



Most "road" related "tax" revenue comes from fuel duty £28bn pa - car tax is about £7bn pa. 

£28.8 bn for the National Roads Fund seems to be the total for 5 years - ~£6bn pa. Somewhat less than the spend on HS2.


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## Trainee neophyte (23 Sep 2020)

What we have here is is a very interesting, polite discussion amongst sheep as to what the wolves will be eating for dinner. Tax is theft. It is the removal of your wealth, with the threat of violence if you don't pay. Vinnie the Knife and his maffia friends are complete amateurs compared to government and their ability to steal from the entire population, _and get the population to agree to it_, too.

The immediate rebuttal to this is the we _need_ government, because who would look after all the poor, sick, hungry, homeless etc, so on and so forth. If you agree to that concept, then we can say that government is enforced charity, with the threat of violence if you don't comply. 

Government's only moral role is to enforce property rights, and possibly also collective defence if you like that sort of thing. To my mind, defence doesn't include going to foreign countries and killing people just in case they were thinking of coming over "here" here and killing some of "us".


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## Lons (23 Sep 2020)

TN
Do you not think there are enough political threads on the forum without escalating this into another one?
Just saying.


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## sploo (23 Sep 2020)

Lons said:


> TN
> Do you not think there are enough political threads on the forum without escalating this into another one?
> Just saying.


Indeed.

My immediate reaction was "sigh". I was going to ask TN to describe the workings of a state that had no tax at all, and think a bit about who would benefit and who would not; but I suspect we'll go down a rabbit hole.


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## Trainee neophyte (23 Sep 2020)

I'm not for a minute suggesting that there will be no taxes. There will always be taxes. Just pointing out the reality that taxes are extortion backed by violence. Prettify it however you want, but Might is Right and force is used to extract wealth from the weakest. Sometimes the weak rebel, and then society gets turned upside down, and then in short order you have another group of wolves shearing the sheep.

The idea of a society where the strong don't steal from the weak at every opportunity hasn't been tried since we stopped being hunter gatherers.


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## Lons (23 Sep 2020)

Nobody is agreeing or disagreeing with you TN, you're arguing with yourself but give it a rest please or start a different thread which can be put on ignore.


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