# Really simple but (possible) stupid question?



## matt scarlett (9 Apr 2016)

which glue or attaching process is best for attaching metal to wood? I guess i'm looking for gluing processes rather than attaching metal to wood by screwing it in.


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## Wuffles (9 Apr 2016)

matt scarlett":3e1rg6wf said:


> which glue or attaching process is best for attaching metal to wood? I guess i'm looking for gluing processes rather than attaching metal to wood by screwing it in.



Epoxy, or perhaps a PU (like Gorilla glue for example).


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Apr 2016)

Epoxy.


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## matt scarlett (9 Apr 2016)

Thanks. I'm just trying to get my head around something like this


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## Wuffles (9 Apr 2016)

That might not actually be stuck together you know, some precision engineering there 

Epoxy and a steady hand for that kind of thing, PU for wood & metal butchery.


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## matt scarlett (9 Apr 2016)

Wuffles":3qpgqefq said:


> That might not actually be stuck together you know, some precision engineering there
> 
> Epoxy and a steady hand for that kind of thing, PU for wood & metal butchery.



I assume there's more to these Sonus Faber speakers than they're letting on. There are a lot of factory tour pictures, but it's just doing some reverse engineering. But thanks for the heads up. It the kind of help/comments i need.


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## Wuffles (9 Apr 2016)

matt scarlett":gruihrcp said:


> Wuffles":gruihrcp said:
> 
> 
> > That might not actually be stuck together you know, some precision engineering there
> ...



I bet someone on here has made some decent speakers before now, start a thread asking about speakers and see what comes up. I think there's a science to it and what you see there is a thin veneer of "nice" wrapped around a bucket load of speakery physics. As you can tell from my lingo, I'm no expert.


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## matt scarlett (9 Apr 2016)

The enclosure design side and acoustic side of it, i've got covered https://transmissionlinedesigns.wordpress.com/
It's just finishing touches or adding such things like a bit of bright-work to add another dimension


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## deema (9 Apr 2016)

I think you will find that the laminates are attached by them sitting in grooves stamped / cast into the metal parts. The metal parts form the structure of the enclosure and the laminates are just for decoration.


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## n0legs (9 Apr 2016)

Could also be double sided tape.
The cushion variety will allow a little movement for the wooden parts.


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## adidat (9 Apr 2016)

I would also suggest that trying to achieve a result such as this brand you are keen on would be difficult as a one man band, companies like this have millions to spend on setting up factories to produce results like this, not saying its impossible but your may need to cut your cloth accordingly. looking inlaying brass strips or shapes.

adidat


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## matt scarlett (9 Apr 2016)

deema":1duq3us0 said:


> I think you will find that the laminates are attached by them sitting in grooves stamped / cast into the metal parts. The metal parts form the structure of the enclosure and the laminates are just for decoration.



Modular parts that are somehow attached. to the fame of the enclosure. The enclosure in themselves are quite compelx, but nowehere do i see any 'Groves'. Just trying to get my head around this design. 

Bottom base





Top Plate










This is the top of the enclosure, on which the top chrome plate sits. There does seem to be some grove or predrilled holes.


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## Eric The Viking (10 Apr 2016)

This caused a bit of sniggering and opening of popcorn in the cheap seats at the back (some of us have a bit of experience with loudspeakers, and others (not me) designed them professionally in years past).

The DS tape thing might be very good. Recently I've been refurbishing our uPVC windows (I know!), including sticking back the faux glazing bars on the outside. There is a special tape for this, which I bought (hugely expensive in small quantities) from http://www.ukindustrialtapes.co.uk/. Their service was very good however, and the stuff sticks like goodness knows what, i.e. really well. It's two ribbons of DS tape with a foam middle, and you can get it in varying widths and thicknesses (1mm, 1.6mm and 2mm being common). There's also a version with a very thin protective film over the sticky, so you can position everything and then tease out the barrier layer from between tape and surface. I got the cheaper stuff with waxed paper, and it worked OK, taking great care. 

The bond is far stronger than I expected, and would be ideal in this context. You'd need to seal the wood with something like 2-part poly first though. One big advantage is that you could prise the metal bits off again if necessary. It will tear the foam apart, but the tape residue can be removed with this, which seems to be mainly acetone. 

You probably realise that you need to be VERY careful about metal-to-wood contact points in this context. Modern cabs use wall resonances as part of the acoustic design much more than older ones (which typically 'assumed' rigidity), especially the blown plastic ones (e.g. a lot of small PA/stage monitor speaker designs and JBL's smaller ones). If you're copying/adapting something recent, beware of causing buzzes where ply touches metal. I'd be inclined to power them before finishing and fixing any trim, and run them quite hard, listening for problems. You'll then know where you need to fix securely or otherwise, before committing. I assume you've got an audio oscillator - sending swept sine waves into the things will be a good test, but be careful, as you can damage things with high energy sine waves out of band (above the driver's limits usually).

HTH,

E.


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

Thank you for the tip. I certainly don't want to copy SF, however i guess some people are into pretty decorations for their speakers. I like the design, but just trying to get my head around it. Personally, i'd stick with MDF if i could, but i assume if i'm going to sell a design, that look might not go down well. 

It'll be interesting to speak to such professionals if they're here on the forum. I guess i'm an 'Enthusiast' and whilst i don't have any professional qualifications, i hope to be able to hold my own in a conversation. But of course each designer has a reason why they do a certain thing ... followed by 50 comments to the contrary. 

As for contact points wood/metal, of course that's another concern. I know many shun metal as a whole (Peter Thomas from PMC for example), but it seems the likes of Genelec, Stenheim and Magico in particular are doing quite well with them. 

For home audio, it's something that will require some consideration. I'm hoping for what I've got in mind for car audio sub enclosures, that it shouldn't be too much of a distracting factor, but i'll have to factor it in all the same. 

but again, that link to the tape is a great help. My knowledge of tape extends to 3M and that's about it. http://www.ukindustrialtapes.co.uk/


I'll let you laugh at this - post1049335.html#p1049335


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## xy mosian (11 Apr 2016)

Hi, I spent more than a decade in the Acoustics Lab, Loudspeaker design really, of a well known, and in some areas respected manufacturer of HI-Fi loudspeakers.
My work included the testing of both speakers we were developing, units and systems, and some of those of other makers. The upkeep of the test gear was included in that. 
Later I moved on to Tweeter design with Horn, sorry wave guide, loading, and latterly the development of a very nice flat field unit. I would say that wouldn't I?

I see from the link, https://transmissionlinedesigns.wordpress.com/, that the site author recommends design by listening. There is nothing wrong with that, to my mind, plenty of reasonable loudspeakers have been designed that way.
Audible testing is quite possible using a Pink Noise signal and in looking for a link to such a signal I came across this site http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_pinknoise.php. A good place to lose any amount of time, for me at least.
I would recommend that you download a pink noise recording and then get used to listening to it. Play it on all your reproduction equipment, bearing in mind that everything between the file on the server and your ears may change the sound. 
Play, sorry experiment, with the graphic equalizer of your PC audio player to get used to hearing the effects of louder, or quieter, frequency ranges. Then listen to your newly developed system how is the overall balance? Are there any bands of frequency missing? This last test is perhaps best done with one speaker, it saves building two anyway. Then, for car speakers, listen again in the car.
I should say that I know little about car systems other than the fact that most around here only have a one note Bass.

Last thing - Go For IT
Hope this helps,
xy


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

xy mosian":2o7y5h06 said:


> Hi, I spent more than a decade in the Acoustics Lab, Loudspeaker design really, of a well known, and in some areas respected manufacturer of HI-Fi loudspeakers.
> My work included the testing of both speakers we were developing, units and systems, and some of those of other makers. The upkeep of the test gear was included in that.
> Later I moved on to Tweeter design with Horn, sorry wave guide, loading, and latterly the development of a very nice flat field unit. I would say that wouldn't I?
> 
> ...



https://transmissionlinedesigns.wordpre ... isclaimer/

The site author is me, and to make a small correction to your comment, nowhere in the article do i advocate design by listening! (https://transmissionlinedesigns.wordpre ... surements/) What i'm trying to get across is that at some point we have to put the measuring equipment away, and our ears take over. One builds speakers to listen to, and no=one has an inbuilt measuring device for listening. We do it by subjective listening devices. 



> It has been my experience of nearly 3 decades of exposure to a vast number of audio products (as most of us have), that regardless of such engineering endeavors, I have experienced;
> 
> – Good and bad products at all price levels. Under the category of bad, I also Include aspects such as build quality.
> 
> ...



For every theory and aspect of design, you'll get a design that will ignore such a theory and still sound impressive to the ear. Diffraction for example, opposing driver to help with cabinet resonances, for another example. although i haven't worked in the design field professionally, i have some some installation work,. The last i semi-helped with was a near £300k McIntosh based system. We swapped some of the Kimber cables (near £16k worth if my memory serves right) for a set up of around £200-300. Could the customer tell the difference? No!


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRM5LB5rvCc


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## Wuffles (11 Apr 2016)

matt scarlett":4zvgbldq said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRM5LB5rvCc



Video is private.


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/choices.htm


> I'd say knowledge is a serious hindrance for objective evaluation. If we had to pick our speaker from behind a black curtain we might pick something we seriously never would have done if we knew what it was.





> If I really had to help you picking the right speaker for you and your room, I would have to know you personally, your spouse, your room, your equipment, your musical taste, how loud you play, etc. And even then you might think my suggestion wasn't exactly what you had in mind.
> And please remember: What I hear is not what you will hear - and describing sound just doesn't make much sense. So -
> 
> Please do not ask what to build!
> ...


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

Wuffles":23y0vrek said:


> matt scarlett":23y0vrek said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRM5LB5rvCc
> ...




be with you in a few minutes


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

https://youtu.be/cBFTQ83zvm4


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

As for SF, I know they use and have used drivers from the likes of Scan and Audiotechnology. In the case of Scan, manufacturers always seem to use the Discovery series instead of the Illuminator's. TBH I'm not too keen on either Scan or the Flex Units. Scan were also involved with Alpine and much as i like Alpine, i find their stuff a little thin, both in terms of drivers and car audio amps, of which I've only owned four.. and there probably won't be a fifth!

But looks like B&O are getting in the Tymphany/Peerless spirit with the use of the Peerless SLS 8" sub in the Beoplay 9. As for the flagship Beolab 90, they're packed full of Scans.


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

I have a dual Peerless SLS 6.5 in a t-line, and for what they are, they rock. But i also love my Hybrid Audio I6sw 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_QUm97_kJk

I like the design of some SF speakers, but I also like Wilson Benesch designs as well. As for listening impressions, SF were good, but not memorable.


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## Wuffles (11 Apr 2016)

You know you're posting this in a metalwork sub forum of a woodworking forum? Just in case you'd forgotten your current audience 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

Wuffles":1557v001 said:


> You know you're posting this in a metalwork sub forum of a woodworking forum? Just in case you'd forgotten your current audience
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Sure, trying to justify my view to xy mosian

Keep any suggestions coming.


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## matt scarlett (11 Apr 2016)

I see no videos of production techniques that show the metal work, and although many speakers are replicated by the DIY crowd, I see no attempt to replicate the metal work, so i grateful for any pointers. 

So far this forum has been very helpful. I don't have anything to contribute in terms of wood or metalwork experience, only newbie questions. But either way, metalwork will have to be apart of future enclosure builds, but i'll tackle that when it gets series. 

But i see a lot of table saw builds and homemade clamp builds, and of course they use metal in their designs. Apart from a grinder for cutting a rod, what would be the first/most useful metal working tools to start with?
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid ... amde+clamp


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## Wuffles (11 Apr 2016)

You'll need a fresh new budget for metalworking tools 

You can manage with a vice, a hacksaw and a file. You may then find you require (read, would like) a roller, bandsaw, linisher and the list goes on and on.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## matt scarlett (12 Apr 2016)

I see people using woodcutting tools for cutting various metals, table saw, routers etc. What say you?


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## Wuffles (12 Apr 2016)

matt scarlett":2v62uin1 said:


> I see people using woodcutting tools for cutting various metals, table saw, routers etc. What say you?



Mild steel will destroy a table saw (and anyone in a 5 foot radius), I'm not sure what would happen with a router table, some sparks then I guess it would all be over.

You've possibly seen aluminium being cut and milled.


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## matt scarlett (12 Apr 2016)

Wuffles":qvs1iwfi said:


> You've possibly seen aluminium being cut and milled.



Yeah, but even with that, there are plenty of sparks, as one might expect. I could design and build my own speaker terminals, maybe not a fancy SF design 







But it would be nice to design my own terminal plates







I'm certain of the basic tools needed for woodwork (not brands), because I've done it before. Metalwork is a mystery to me. Or would it be cheaper to outsource the work?


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## Wuffles (12 Apr 2016)

matt scarlett":3e4yljht said:


> Wuffles":3e4yljht said:
> 
> 
> > You've possibly seen aluminium being cut and milled.
> ...



I wouldn't know unfortunately, I just chop up metal and stick it back together, never got involved in fiddly stuff.


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## matt scarlett (12 Apr 2016)

I need a press drill of course, but if i could getaway with cutting rectangles on a table saw ....


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## xy mosian (12 Apr 2016)

matt scarlett":2zw95bsp said:


> xy mosian":2zw95bsp said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, I spent more than a decade in the Acoustics Lab, Loudspeaker design really, of a well known, and in some areas respected manufacturer of HI-Fi loudspeakers.
> ...


Absolutely correct, my mis-reading, very many apologies from me. That mis-understanding makes the rest of my post irrelevent of course. xy


> (https://transmissionlinedesigns.wordpre ... surements/) What i'm trying to get across is that at some point we have to put the measuring equipment away, and our ears take over. One builds speakers to listen to, and no=one has an inbuilt measuring device for listening. We do it by subjective listening devices.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Keep up the interesting work!

xy


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## matt scarlett (12 Apr 2016)

No worries, and thanks for you comments.


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