# Using washing machine motors



## BMac

I hope this is in the right place.

I am thinking of making a disc sander, a belt-type sander/honer and a buffing machine using washing machine motors. I don't need variable speed so wiring will be straightforward and I know I need enclosed, fan-cooled motors for safety so that bits aren't falling inside them. The rigs will be built to be secure I will get a friend to check electrics for me but am I walking into danger by overlooking something elementary that I am unaware of?

Thanks, Brendan


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## Geno

For your own sake try not to walk in to it!!  

I take it you have considered required speeds etc and how it suits for the job at whatever diameter your disc sander will be.


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## BMac

Hi Geno,

Yeah, I've investigated speeds and most washing machine motors give 1450-1750 rpm but I've discovered that can be governed using a control panel from a washing machine. I don't know how it's done but the guy I am dealing with repairs machines so I'll leave that up to him if need be. However, those speeds are fine for my job and I can vary disc diameters as required. 

"For your own sake try not to walk in to it!!" 

You are closer than you imagine. The reason for building a dedicated sander is because I was sanding the edges of some boards with a belt sander. I held them in a vice but, when I had finished, I noticed a little bit I had missed so lifted the board and ran the belt sander over the bit in question. Its a good idea not to have your hand in front of the sander when it runs on. Have you any idea how quickly a belt sander with a 60 grit belt removes knuckle flesh? So, I don't need that experience again.

Also, I know there's the saving money element which is always satisfying but I think it's more satisfying being able to say 'I done that!'


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## wizer

BMac. How odd, I was just looking at motors on eBay (via Chisels link elsewhere). I've been contemplating making a sanding machine for some time. The low end commercial ones just seem to be poor quality. Never even considered using a motor from a Washing Machine. Aren't they overpowered? I know that the 2 washing machines I have owned over the years where powerful enough to make the unit jump around if they weren't sited properly. I would imagine the motor would need a very secure fixing at very least.

Interested to see the build tho, please document it. I'm certainly going to make one some day. Probably a drum sander as these are astronomical to buy.


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## Geno

Good man Brendan!!

Nothing like losing some knuckles to make it look like you were busy!!  

I'm sure I'm like everyone else here and have had more than enough close calls with the wrong machines!

As for the sander, I'm sure there is some variable speed control that your mate is incorporating, just make sure it doesn't incorporate the intermittent reverse cycle!!  

AS Wizer said, hope to see the pics on the build! I'm off to find me a few washing machines!!  

Mind the knuckles!


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## BMac

Wizer,

If you do a search for 'homemade drum sander' lots of stuff will appear, that's what I tried but rather than pick a link I just typed that so you can copy and paste.

Also, YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLy8YnNomwk

Geno,   @ reverse cycle. Wouldn't you guys just love it if I made a video and that happened!


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## Oryxdesign

please don't leave yours unguarded or you'll do more than skin your knuckles. Watching vids like that scare the life out of me.


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## wizer

Cheers Brendan. I have seen that and a few others around the web. I actually have a 1/4 HP motor in the workshop but I'm not sure if it will be powerful enough. At any rate I don't have time to devote to this project just yet. It will be a fun and useful thing tho and will save bundles.


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## Dave S

I think Peter Lloyd has pictures of a home made disc sander in his book 'Making Heirloom Boxes'.

I think I might have an old Shopnotes kicking around with plans for one, too. I 'll have a look when I get a chance.

Dave


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## Digit

Forget the WM motor Brendan, too fast by miles. Look for a tumble dryer motor.

Roy.


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## BMac

Thank you Dave and Roy.

I haven't got any motors yet but I had been considering using a pulley to step the speed down, this advice from Roy makes things much easier.


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## wizer

Do we know the ideal power rating for a motor that will comfortable drive a sanding machine? Be it in HP or KW or something else?


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## BMac

Wizer, 

I looked on Axminster to see specs for sanders and they vary between 560W and 750W with speeds of 1400-1425rpm. 

That RPM seems high because when I am using my lathe to sand I generally have the speed 700-900rpm.


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## xy mosian

I have used old washing machine motors to drive ad hoc lathes in the past. But they only had one speed, however they were very easy to wire up. Sadly I think a lot of newer w/m motors are not fully enclosed being only skeletal frames, and of course the multi speed/direction options add to the confusion.


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## Digit

If modern washing machine brush motors are connected with stator and rotor in series the speed drops to more usable levels and the speed can be controlled with a dimmer switch.
That's how we test 'em.

Roy.


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## BMac

Excellent, thank you for that Digit.

Brendan


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## wizer

Digit":1bnci57h said:


> brush motors are connected with stator and rotor in series



What does that mean in English?


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## Digit

Washing machine motors wizer have the terminals for the field winding, the non-moving part, separate from the terminals for the rotor, the spinning bit.
If the power is connected simultaneously to both fixed and moving parts that is 'shunt' connected and the motor runs at high speed.
If you connect the power to one terminal of the field winding then connected the other terminal to the rotor, the brushes, and the other brush to neutral, the power runs through one part then the next and the motor spins more slowly.
This is 'series' connection.

Roy.


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## BMac

Well, I've run into a bit of a problem, a fatal problem actually. I went to see my washing machine motor man today and he told me I'd be wasting my time because the modern motors aren't strong enough to give sustained use because they are designed for short bursts of activity and would give up fairly quickly if run for long periods. He also told me that the torque generated by the pressure of the piece on the sanding disc would also serve to destroy the motors. At one time this would have been a viable project but not now. Oh well.

Edit 13.30pm. I've just had a thought. I wonder, in this litigious age, if he just didn't want to have anything to do with my project?

(BTW, this is a different guy from the friend who is advising me)

Brendan


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## wizer

Surely you're not going to be running a drum sander or disc sander for longer than the average washing cycle? If you need to take that much off your doing something wrong on the previous process.


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## BMac

I think he meant that the motor would be running at it's fastest for longer and more often than a normal spin cycle.

B


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## Soulfly

We have had a sanding disc for about 30 odd years made from an old washing mashine motor and has done many thousands of hours of work. I think in those days the motors were much better and over engineered than todays motors. Yoo will find that most washing machines will be scrapped because the motor has burnt out so you may find it difficult to find a good one.


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## Digit

30 odd years ago a lot of WMs had spin speeds in the middle hundreds and used induction motors, now all the ones I am familiar with used high spin speeds and brush motors.
In my experience motor damage is usually limited to worn brushes and knackered TOCs, all repairable.

Roy.


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## MickCheese

Is TOC a thermostatic cutout of some sort?

If so why is it not TCO?

Mick


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## Digit

Thermal Overload Cut-out.

Roy.


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## arminiusrex

not surprisingly, 'Fine Woodworking' in the US have come up with a solution, but what would H & S say?

See 'Shop accessories you can build'

Taunton Press

Please ask if want the details and I will scan them and email it to you.


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## Dave S

Just a thought - would a tumble drier motor be any better - they seem to run at constant speed, do they not?

Dave


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## DaveL

Dave S":1w2f66l9 said:


> Just a thought - would a tumble drier motor be any better - they seem to run at constant speed, do they not?


I the past I have reused motors from both washing machines and tumble driers. 
If the tumble drier is a simple one that just runs in one direction then you could well be lucky, I had the back off of our one to de fluff the airways and fit a new thermostat. It is a slightly posh one that does a reverse tumble once in a while to help stop things get tide in knots, the motor does not look that friendly for reuse, lots of wires and not fully enclosed.


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## RussianRouter

BMac":1x0dxzcw said:


> Well, I've run into a bit of a problem, a fatal problem actually. I went to see my washing machine motor man today and he told me I'd be wasting my time because the modern motors aren't strong enough to give sustained use because they are designed for short bursts of activity and would give up fairly quickly if run for long periods. He also told me that the torque generated by the pressure of the piece on the sanding disc would also serve to destroy the motors. At one time this would have been a viable project but not now. Oh well.
> 
> Edit 13.30pm. I've just had a thought. I wonder, in this litigious age, if he just didn't want to have anything to do with my project?
> 
> (BTW, this is a different guy from the friend who is advising me)
> 
> Brendan



What a load of tosh,a motor is a motor and it will run for as long as the brushes life span,then you just change the brushes.

I guess he hadn't a clue about the speed controller side as most washing machine sevice pesonell just renew the same part as the wires are colour coded.

I wouldn't abandon this project...what have you to lose? providing you have a guard this will work with a washing machine motor.

Today I'll have a look for a Motor speed controller on the net and let you know where,I wouldn't use a Dimmer switch though as someone suggeted as its Wattage is to low to operate a motor of this size continuesly.


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## RussianRouter

Motor speed controller and user manual.

Alls you have to do is look at the motors operating voltage and Wattage load if its 90volts AC?then these will do.

http://www.quasarelectronics.com/cr0008 ... -1500w.htm


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## Jamesc

I have no idea how well this works but this guy has been advertising on some of the engineering forums. He makes a box of tricks that allow simple powering and speed control of washing machine motors. May be worth a look.
http://www.calenterprises.co.uk/speed.html

James


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## Digit

I think we need a sticky on this as well. 
Years ago WMs spun at less than 500 revs and used conventional AC motors. As the lady of the house demanded higher spin speed DC motors were introduced. Bear in mind that I have been retired for some years, but before I retired 18000 revs was a common motor speed. 
None of the motors had a thrust bearing so would be unsuitable for attaching a sanding disc to the shaft. 
As regards purchasing a speed control unit, save your money, there's one in the machine! 

Roy.


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## chipchaser

Yes Digit, definitely need a sticky on this subject. 

As I was intrigued, and also have an old washing machine motor that I would like to use, I had a Google to find a simple explanation of how the speed control works. I found this at rcgroups.com posted by [email protected].

_Many of the early UK front loading washing machines used multi winding squirrel cage capacitor start and run induction motors. These had typically a high power (about 1/3HP) 2 pole winding for the spin cycle and a low power (about 1/8 HP) 6 or 8 pole winding for low speed wash cycle. Because these were induction motors the natural speed regulation was quite good and electronic control was not needed.

Later machines needed a lot more power for the high speed spin cycles and these used high speed series wound commutator motors because these can deliver much more power (1/2 to 1Hp short term rated) for a given size and cost. The natural speed regulation of series wound machines is inherently poor and electronic control is essential for washing machine service. While crude form of speed control is possible by sensing the back EMF of the motor this is not good enough for the wide range of speed and loads needed for the wash/spin cycles. Because of this pretty well all motors are fitted with a "tacho" (tachometer) which is a very small (and very crude!) AC generator which produces an electrical output directly proportional to speed. A closed loop electronic speed control is used to adjust the power input to the motor until it delivers the the desired speed sensed by the tacho output.

Tacho output voltage or tacho output frequency can be used to sense motor speed. Early controllers used discrete transistors and a triac output. Later boards integrated most of the control functions into a single IC - Motorola TDA1085C is typical._

The thread is at 
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129261

The Quasar motor speed control, linked to by George, appears to be only a pulse width modulation circuit without a tacho feedback circuit so, if the post above is to be believed, may not give good motor speed control. 
The Calenterprises.co.uk box has a tacho reading circuit (tacho generator frequency) to provide speed control. 

If you fancied a bit of DIY, A circuit for a washing machine controller with 4 speeds (800, 1,300, 7,500 & 15,000 rpm) is shown in the data sheet available at 
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collater ... 085C-D.PDF 
This could be modified to give variable speed using a variable resistance. The TDA 1085c controller chip can be bought for £2 and a Triac for less than £4 but, adding in the other components and the time in making, I would probably try to salvage the original speed control, as Digit suggests, or buy the Calenterprises.co.uk box ready made.

The Calenterprises.co.uk manual and video (downloadable from the web site) shows a metalwork lathe with two sets of reduction pulleys the first taken from the washing machine gives 11:1 reduction and an additional pair of pulleys giving a 2:1 reduction so 22:1 in all. Result is a variable speed control shown driving a metalwork lathe. The gearing might be adjusted to provide a speed range to suit a woodturning lathe, a grinder or sander to give the right range of surface speeds to suit the diameter of turned onject, grinding wheel or sanding disc.

It still sounds like a a fair bit of trouble and expense, £40 for the controller, make an enclosure for the open frame motor etc etc. The large pulley from the washing machine is LARGE! 

Maybe there is an easier way. I sometimes see cheap lathes on ebay. Last week an old NuTool (same as Clarke Woodworker), complete except for drive belt, went for £1.20. A better quality Elu lathe went for £20. Both these have induction motors and variable speed by pulley blocks and could easily convert to sanding or sharpening duty. Just saw off the bit of lathe bed you don’t need.

Graham


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## Digit

Without the tacho the set speed will not be maintained under load. Frankly the speed is such that for most purposes the motors are useless! Tumble dryer motors are much more useful.

Roy.


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## RussianRouter

Every year Aldi have a bench saw for £29.99,I've seen one of these in actiion and believe me you don't wan't to be within 10 feet of it. :shock: 

However should we get one we have a cradle for the motor,the motor itself,the safty cutout switch box,the blade is held on via a large collar and nut,take this off and replace with a pully gear? or control the motor electronically?

I'll pop up to the bloke who's got it and have a look at the RPM and wattage because if its a saw it has to have a good RPM?

What RPM speed are we talking about for the drum sander?


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## Digit

I bought an old single speed bandsaw some time back with a burnt out motor George and followed your procedure. I now have a machine capable of cutting both wood and some metals. 

Roy.


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## RussianRouter

The motor on the Aldi tablesaw is...

1 1/4 Hp and RPM is 2950rpm

Thats one and a quarter horespower.


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## chipchaser

George, 

from the Axminster web site

Jet 10-20 drum sander, Axminster’s cheapest 250mm width: 1400rpm Motor is 1200watt

Axminster AWDS12H their cheapest disc sander 300 diameter disc: 1400rpm Motor is 750watt

Rojek CB600/1 600mm Disc Sander: speed not stated** and Motor is 1500watt 3 phase

Axminster BS648 Belt Sander: speed not stated** Motor is 750watt

Axminster AW130BD2 Belt & Disc Sander: speed not stated* Motor is 190watt

Axminster AWEBDS46 MkII Belt & Disc Sander: speed not stated* Motor is 375watt

750 watts is 1 horse, Shire or Shetland Pony not specified!
*The speed is not stated for the last two but they are direct drive so likely to be 1400 rpm. 
**The other two where speed not stated might have belt drive hidden within the enclosure so could be any speed.

The noise of brush motors would put me off using them if avoidable. My Kity saw with induction motor is quieter and has a more pleasant sound than the old contractors type table saw with brush motor I used before but the old saw is torquey and good for ripping so I kept it for when needed. When I get a bigger workshop I will have it with a rip blade in and the Kity with a fine cross cut blade.

The Aldi saw with a reduction pulley drive to give 1400rpm would give twice the torque, I am sure it will be much more than enough!

I have not seen a discarded tumble drier but have seen old spin driers with working motors but broken lids etc. They didn’t seem so noisy. I thought they had stopped making these but had a look on the web and found some which all run at 2800 rpm. Perhaps Digit could advise what motors they have inside them? Maybe a case of old UK made being better than newer imported models with throw away motors?

Graham


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## RussianRouter

The problem anyone is faced with once they have the motor and speed regulator is the drum and bearings that hold the drum.

Be alright if you had a decent scrapyard by you or one that does industrial scrapping,these yards contain an alladins cave of machine components.


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## Digit

Using a WM motor, say 15000 revs needs a 10 to 1 reduction to get down to 'normal' induction motor speeds. If pulleys are used it becomes very bulky, it is important to understand that the closer you bring the motor pulley to the driven pulley the smaller the contact area between belt and driver becomes, and the greater risk of slippage/burnt belt etc. 
Gears would overcome this. 
The motors normally only run flat out for a few minutes, the high speed spin cycle, and they get hot! 
The motors are not shrouded IME and without a cooling fan. 
Is it worth the trouble to overcome these defects? 
At the end you get a 2HP fully reversible/controllable stepless drive, so it's up to you. 
TD motors are normally about 1/3 HP. 

Roy.


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## RussianRouter

Sifting through ebay machine parts before and came across these bearings for holding the drum.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/UCP207-20-Pillow- ... 4a998997b2


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## Josie99

Nice one Brendon.


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## CroppyBoy1798

Really wish I hadnt looked at this thread, now I want to make a drum sander......damn!! Another project to add to the list of projects!  

Anyway, the Aldi saws were mentioned and it occured to me that I have one of those saws sitting on a shelf in the shop collecting dust these past few years!

Had a look at the ratings, it says:

Power:
S1 750W
S2 30min 1000W
2950RPM

Then, I pulled it assunder, I've been contemplating chucking it out numerous times but always thought 'but what if I need a small saw for something', but all that ended tonight, its in 100 parts now, so, its either a drum sander or keep the motor and switch and chuck the rest!  

Would that be adequate for such a drum sander? And, while I'm here, I was just wondering, what is the actual drum made of?


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## CroppyBoy1798

Actually, disregard my last question, it seems the drum can be made up of numerous MDF or plywood rings glued and sandwiched together and then wrapped with self adhesive velcro.......simples! :wink: 

A lenght of mild steel tubing, say 5" diameter or so (for a 12" drum) would do the job also I presume? With a rin cut and fitted into either end and perhaps one or two in the middle to support the shaft?

I'm going to make one of these I think, however as I'm very limited for space I'd have to make a bench top one that I can store when not in use. I was thinking of making the frame out of steel, 30mm box section or so and welted/bolting it together. Is there any disadvantage of using steel over timber? Would a timber frame absort some of the vibration etc better than a steel frame? It'll be bolted to a workbench when I'm using it so I cant see it being a problem.

Here's a few links that I found helpful!

http://www.rockslide.org/drum%20sander.html (plenty of WIP pics!)
http://www.areddy.net/wood/tools.html
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/7641 (a really nicely made one!)


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## Pierrick

I think the link will work. But I don't know exactly how this going to work though. One tip, I am only trusting big companies, as a matter of fact, I have been using my GE washing machine for many years now and no worries at all!


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