# Tormek cutting stupidly slow



## miles_hot (24 Sep 2009)

I have spent about 40 mins tonight and about 2 hours yesterday attempting to sharpen my new skew to the Tormek grind. I still don't have one side done!

I have 
1) trued the wheel a number of times (3, taking around 1mm off the wheel in the process) as if you do this fast it creates a rougher surface
2) held the black block against it (course side) for a long time (say around 1-3 mins each time)
3) tried the vertical and horizontal positions
4) put one hell of a lot of weight onto the tip - more so in the horizontal position however I put a lot o force onto it in the vertical one

I expected it to be slow, say an hour at most, but this absolutly daft.

Questions to all you Tormek types
1) Is there a dummy thing I'm doing here
2) have i missed some magic step out in the process
3) can stones just be faulty and not cut? :evil: 

Many thanks all

Miles


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## CHJ (24 Sep 2009)

*Miles*, I don't think you are doing anything wrong other than wasting stone dressing it for such long periods, when I had a Tormek for review I gave up after half hour or so on each side of my skew on the basis that it just was not practical.
20-30 seconds on my cheap diamond stone is far quicker.


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## wizer (24 Sep 2009)

I've not use one, but I wonder if a tiny micro bevel would work on a turning skew?


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## CHJ (24 Sep 2009)

wizer":b5xx8w7e said:


> I've not use one, but I wonder if a tiny micro bevel would work on a turning skew?


It does if you want the skew to dive deeply into the wood as soon as it starts cutting Tom as there is no stop like a plane sole to stop it.

The skew like any other gouge relies on the bevel rubbing to control depth of cut, with a micro bevel the cutting edge is either fractionally above the work when the bevel is rubbing or if the micro bevel is cutting then the bevel has been lifted off the surface to make the edge contact the work. EDIT: unless you want to make your skew one sided of course.


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## CHJ (24 Sep 2009)

*Miles,* another thing I forgot to mention, round HSS gouge sharpening and HSS skew sharpening are not really mutually compatable tasks on the soft Tormek, the round gouges will quickly groove the stone, not a disastrous problem whilst sharpening round cutters but the stone would have to be dressed flat for the next skew just the same as if you wanted to sharpen your plane blades.


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## big soft moose (24 Sep 2009)

why are you sharpening a new skew anyway - it should have come ready sharpened surely - if its one of the unsharpened type you probably need to use a grinder to give it is first shape and sharpen - ime tormeks are great for touching up turning tools but not great for major sharpening.

If you havent got a grinder remind me and i'll bring mine over on saturday


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## Blister (25 Sep 2009)

miles_hot":28u9ua1e said:


> I have spent about 40 mins tonight and about 2 hours yesterday attempting to sharpen my new skew to the Tormek grind. I still don't have one side done!
> 
> I have
> 1) trued the wheel a number of times (3, taking around 1mm off the wheel in the process) as if you do this fast it creates a rougher surface
> ...



Miles

A tormek will only hone an edge you already have , it will not re shape the tool 

If you have the Grey sandstone wheel they are designed for plane irons and are very soft 

If you upgrade to a :- http://www.peterchild.co.uk/grind/bluewheel1.htm
wheel these will last longer but are still not designed to re shape your tools 

You need to reshape your tools on a slow speed grinder , with a white or blue wheel , when you have the shape you want you can then use the Tormek to sharpen 

Or if you want a tool that does it all , get one of these :- http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/proedge.htm

I did and never looked back , I will PM you my number if you want to talk regarding any of these options 

:wink:

Hope this helps


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## tekno.mage (25 Sep 2009)

Miles,

It's best to use a dry grinder to do the initial reshaping of a new tool, unless you are very patient. Once you have removed the majority of the unwanted metal, then move on to the Tormek to refine the shape & sharpen the tool. 

Having said that, I have used my own wet grinder (which has a Peter Child's microcrystalline blue wheel fitted) to reshape a new 1/2" bowl gouge from a straight across grind to a fingernail grind. It took most of an afternoon - not continually using it, but just doing a bit until I got bored, then doing something else, then going back to it again etc. It's not something I'll be doing again in a hurry!

Regarding your skew, is it a very wide one? I've reshaped a 1/2" skew on the wet grinder alone - I wanted a longer bevel on it and a slight curve. It took about an hour to do both sides. I wouldn't want to reshape a wider skew than that on a wet grinder alone.

Without wanting to state the obvious  I suppose you do have enough water in the water trough of your Tormek so the wheel is actually running wet?

I've never heard of a faulty stone that doesn't cut but you will be able to see if metal is being removed (albeit slowly) while you are using the Tormek - you should see dark streaks running away up the stone from underneath the edge you are grinding. If you inspect the tooltip when you take it off the stone you should also see the fresh grinding marks on it.

tekno.mage


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## devonwoody (25 Sep 2009)

Interesting thread, BTW Blister, the Sorby movies would only give me audio no visual. Any ideas?


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## Blister (25 Sep 2009)

devonwoody":3trhbuz3 said:


> Interesting thread, BTW Blister, the Sorby movies would only give me audio no visual. Any ideas?



Try this Devon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqoq5EXv1J0

may help 

They sell three different jigs to sit on the platform , one for gouges , one for skews and one for straight edge tools like parting chisels 

The system also uses different material belts 

http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/

This link shows the part numbers and the belts 

I use the Zirconium 60 grit green belts for shaping 

and the red Ceramic 120 grit for sharpening / honing 

the beauty of this system is thr repeatable angles every time with the pin system 

its GREAT :wink: 

ask Boysie39 , he is now a convert


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## BMac (25 Sep 2009)

I have the Sorby Pro Edge too.

Great piece of kit. I bought it when I started turning because I hadn't a clue about sharpening and 4 seasoned gentlemen I met at a demo told me to buy it because they had spent thousands of pounds on sharpening systems and all had the Sorby now...and thousands of pounds worth of redundant equipment.

The Sorby Pro Edge gives a flat grind which some turners are horrified by but any turners who use my chisels initially baulk at the flat grind but quickly grow to like it.

The only drawback is that I found it hard to do Celtic/fingernail grinds initially but once I had the jigs set they were easy to touch up.

Brendan


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## devonwoody (25 Sep 2009)

How wide is the belt on the Sorby, (thinking plane irons) ?


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## BMac (25 Sep 2009)

50mm


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## greggy (25 Sep 2009)

hiya miles, i cannot believe what has been written on this thread.
i have the large tormek, and i have an oval skew.
i have sharpend my skew with no problems.
and yes you can reshape your tools, even a large skew. yes i admit it will take longer to do, but i have done it loads of times as i sharpen other peoples tools too. someone asked why you want to sharpen a new tool for.....
well the simple answer is.. all tools need sharpening when new because they are only roughly sharpend to a decent stage. the only tools i know that you can use from the box thats already sharpend are lie nielson.


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## boysie39 (25 Sep 2009)

A big BIG yes for the Sorby proedge thanks Blister. REgards Boysie


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## cornucopia (25 Sep 2009)

hi miles- at the bash i did the majority of reshaping of your gouge on a dry grinder then i got the razors edge on the tormek which is where it excells- 
the tormek can re shape slightly but overall it is best at restoreing the razor edge to an existing profile which has been previously made by the tormek- 
the first time you do any tool on the tormek you will have a more long winded job- and possibly do some on the dry grinder first, depending on how much of a change is needed.

chas is very correct in pointing out the problem of trying to sharpen gouges and flat blades on the same wheel- its a major drawback of the tormek imo


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## petercharlesfagg (25 Sep 2009)

Whenever I have bought a new tool I always rough sharpen it on a 6 inch grinder then sharpen it on my Tormek, the smallest version.

I am surprised that you are experiencing problems. Yes it does take time but your patience will be rewarded.

If you are getting a groove in the stone then you are using it incorrectly, I am constantly moving the tool across the face of the stone to even out the wear. 

I can only suggest that you persevere but please do not apply too much pressure it will only make matters worse and frustration levels rise.

Peter.


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## Paul.J (25 Sep 2009)

I managed to regrind my 1/2" bowl gouge pretty quickly on my Small Tormek,and was surprised how quickly it did it.
I don't use the skew much but i tend to sharpen it free hand when needed with just a light touch,on the Tormek.
The stone does stay fairly flat/even if you move the tool across the stone i've found.
Keep at it Miles the results will be worth it.


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## gasmansteve (25 Sep 2009)

Just a thought but can you regrind as well as resharpen with the Sorby Pro edge?. A few turners seem to praise the Sorby. Thinking back to a previous version of `Woodturning` where they included a Tormek dvd I`m sure they show a chisel being reshaped on the Tormek ?.
Regards
Steve


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## BMac (26 Sep 2009)

Yep, there's a Zirconium 60 grit green belt for shaping.

Brendan


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## devonwoody (26 Sep 2009)

BMac":2h8f65vz said:


> 50mm



Thanks, so how does the Sorby cope with wider plane irons?
Doesnt it mean that one side of a blade gets more touch or does the system cope?


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## wizer (26 Sep 2009)

John you slide the iron left and right and even amount, just like a grinder. The pro=edge is a really attractive proposition, I'd have one in a shot if they were half the price.


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## devonwoody (26 Sep 2009)

I think I would prefer a belt or system that is wide enough for a jack plane iron, I will stick with my wet & dry paper on glass for the time being.

When you are coming off the belt or wheel there must be a difference in pressure being applied to the blade by the operator.


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## gidon (26 Sep 2009)

Don't use the black dressing stone after truing the wheel - you'll undo all the good work you've done with the diamond tool. I find the Tormek cuts pretty quickly after a fast past of the diamond truing tool.
Cheers
Gidon


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## wizer (26 Sep 2009)

devonwoody":369qa51y said:


> When you are coming off the belt or wheel there must be a difference in pressure being applied to the blade by the operator.



But your never coming fully off the belt? You just rest one finger near the top centre. It's exactly the same as a grinder, surely?


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## Jenx (27 Sep 2009)

Miles... this is just a personal view, but I've stopped putting skews anywhere near an abraisive wheel now... its the only turning tool which I do this with, but its straight onto an oilstone for the skews with me... and they come off absolutely razor sharp.

Just an idea


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## CHJ (27 Sep 2009)

Jenx":1lk3fa91 said:


> Miles... this is just a personal view, but I've stopped putting skews anywhere near an abraisive wheel now... its the only turning tool which I do this with, but its straight onto an oilstone for the skews with me... and they come off absolutely razor sharp.
> 
> Just an idea



Similarly, I only use a cheap diamond (on steel) stone to keep my skews sharp.
Initial bevel required formed on white wheel and finished off on diamond stone, from then on diamond only, usually only takes 3-4 passes per side to regain edge.


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## miles_hot (27 Sep 2009)

cornucopia":3cldidxg said:


> hi miles- at the bash i did the majority of reshaping of your gouge on a dry grinder then i got the razors edge on the tormek which is where it excells-
> the tormek can re shape slightly but overall it is best at restoreing the razor edge to an existing profile which has been previously made by the tormek-
> the first time you do any tool on the tormek you will have a more long winded job- and possibly do some on the dry grinder first, depending on how much of a change is needed.



yes - I have more or less come around to this view; there is still some thoughts about buying some other wheel - maybe the one from Childs - to cut faster however for the cost of this I could get a cheep grinder...



Paul.j":3cldidxg said:


> Keep at it Miles the results will be worth it.


Oh I don't doubt the edge will be brilliant but frankly taking 2-4 evenings to get to it is stupid, I don't get that long in the garage. :evil: Hence I will be sorting a grinder out and doing the first pass on that and then sorting the final sharpness on the Tormek



gidon":3cldidxg said:


> Don't use the black dressing stone after truing the wheel - you'll undo all the good work you've done with the diamond tool. I find the Tormek cuts pretty quickly after a fast past of the diamond truing too


Interesting point - I did find that there was more "action" after the truing however I was doing it too many times for comfort. Given your view that the grading stone stuffs the squareness how do you use it and still have the benefit of the flat, square wheel?



jenx":3cldidxg said:


> Miles... this is just a personal view, but I've stopped putting skews anywhere near an abraisive wheel now... its the only turning tool which I do this with, but its straight onto an oilstone for the skews with me... and they come off absolutely razor sharp


Interesting - are you using some jig or free hand? The length of bevel that the Tormek setting is putting on the skew is pretty long. This picture shows the original length and the one that the standard settings on the Tormek are putting on:



I thought I'd try the standard settings before branching out... 

Thanks all

Miles


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## Jenx (27 Sep 2009)

Pic looks more like a parting tool, Miles ? 

For the Skew, I go free-hand... place the cutting edge on the stone, rock it back until it contacts the trailing edge of the bevel, then shaarpen, keeping both points in touch with the stone.
The actual bevel will be concave from initial profiling, so it only hits the stone at front and back contact-points... its real easy,
Then flip over for the other bevel..

For the parting tool. I use the grinder... just with a conventional platform type jig... it _is _the skew you mean, yes ?


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## big soft moose (27 Sep 2009)

Jenx":1lv9w55q said:


> Pic looks more like a parting tool, Miles ?
> 
> For the Skew, I go free-hand... place the cutting edge on the stone, rock it back until it contacts the trailing edge of the bevel, then shaarpen, keeping both points in touch with the stone.
> The actual bevel will be concave from initial profiling, so it only hits the stone at front and back contact-points... its real easy,
> ...



yep i was thinking that - i'm fairly sure a skew isnt suposed to be ground to a point (that said i hate the bliddy things and dont use them at all even after 8 years of turninf - i dont do much spindle but what i do do i do with a spindle gouge and beading tool - the skew is the devils work IMO)


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## miles_hot (27 Sep 2009)

Jenx":3bxcsy3i said:


> Pic looks more like a parting tool, Miles ?
> For the parting tool. I use the grinder... just with a conventional platform type jig... it _is _the skew you mean, yes ?



[quote ="BSM"]
yep i was thinking that - i'm fairly sure a skew isnt suposed to be ground to a point
[/quote]

Yep, it's defiantly a skew - the other view is the typical skewed looking angle; this is the side view showing the different angle (maybe "bevel" is the wrong term?

Miles


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## Jenx (27 Sep 2009)

Ah.. i get you.. you're showing it 'side-on'.
Its not particulary 'even' is it ? 

I'm not certain that it;d absolutely have to be ....
but mine all are.

I'm guessing that might be a good place to start with it... even-ing up the two grinds, then going from there.


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## wizer (27 Sep 2009)

It's one of those chunky skews that Richard was talking about on my skew thread.


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## CHJ (27 Sep 2009)

wizer":k7d4nhej said:


> It's one of those chunky skews that Richard was talking about on my skew thread.



To me it registers as a thick parting tool that can be used in a similar fashion to a steep angled skew for beads etc. I don't consider the front edge to be skewed any more than would be done on a parting tool to get a clean cut-off.


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## miles_hot (27 Sep 2009)

Jenx":ho6s0b1y said:


> Ah.. i get you.. you're showing it 'side-on'.
> Its not particulary 'even' is it ?
> 
> I'm not certain that it;d absolutely have to be ....
> ...



Ah.. I fear I didn't explain myself too clearly! 

The shorter edge (sharper angle) is the one that it came with from Toolpost. The longer one (which is still 1mm off being finished) is the one that the Tormek settings are producing. This side has taken at lease 2 evenings so far...

Granted there is a lot of metal being removed but still it's a very frustrating thing 

Miles


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## wizer (27 Sep 2009)

I was thinking that myself Chas.

These are my skews, certainly not as chunky


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## wizer (27 Sep 2009)

With the tormek, can you not just match the bevel angle, then hone? Or do you have to use their pre-set angles?


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## miles_hot (27 Sep 2009)

wizer":1xtewdd3 said:


> With the tormek, can you not just match the bevel angle, then hone? Or do you have to use their pre-set angles?



Oh, I'm positive you can match the angles etc however as I've never used a skew before I thought I'd go with the single recommended setting in the tormek book and see what that felt like...

Miles


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## CHJ (27 Sep 2009)

As the safe contact area when using a skew in planing mode is in as near the centre of the cutting edge as possible it would have to be a very thin spindle to achieve that with one of those.


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## CHJ (27 Sep 2009)

miles_hot":372a8wso said:


> ...Oh, I'm positive you can match the angles etc however as I've never used a skew before I thought I'd go with the single recommended setting in the tormek book and see what that felt like...
> 
> Miles



Miles that's not the tool Tormek are referring to when they refer to a skew.


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## wizer (27 Sep 2009)

ahh oops, so you're regrinding to the book's angle which is clearly different to what you purchased. I think you need to make a decision about what angle you want (book or factory) then grind it, note it and leave it alone  Good advice above about honing on a diamond stone, makes sense.

Next bash or meetup, you need to try out a few different styles of skew (as recommended to me on the other thread)


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## TobyB (28 Sep 2009)

I agree with the other enthusiasts of the Sorby - although you can (well I can) get blued steel if you aren't thinking ... but I use it for gouges and scrapers (shaping and sharpening) ... but although I have done the skew on it, I've found the Veritas Mk II and the scary-sharp papers a much better way of getting my skew really sharp.


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## miles_hot (28 Sep 2009)

CHJ":2772v2h5 said:


> miles_hot":2772v2h5 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Oh, I'm positive you can match the angles etc however as I've never used a skew before I thought I'd go with the single recommended setting in the tormek book and see what that felt like...
> ...



Chas

I will post some more pictures up as I fear that you're wrong in this instance  Unless of course the chap at the toolpost sold me a pup or I have got the wrong end of a sharp thing of course!

Miles


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## big soft moose (28 Sep 2009)

miles_hot":26c1uzbf said:


> CHJ":26c1uzbf said:
> 
> 
> > miles_hot":26c1uzbf said:
> ...



I think Chas may be right - what tormek are refering to as a skew is one of these - top picture http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/sorby_turning.htm

it looks to like what you have is what toolpost refer to as a "skew variant" (which peter would have sold you as they are a lot easier for a beginer than a true skew) but which are in effect a fat parting/beading tool with a skewed end


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## CHJ (28 Sep 2009)

Miles looking at the picture you posted, it looks as if it is lying on its wide side 15mm or so (side view) and the depth to the surface it's lying on (width) is about 6mm,

To my mind a better description for the tool is that given in Richards post in Wizers skew query:


Richard Findley":1pwzs2bw said:


> ......I now mostly use a *Beading and Parting tool *to do my Skew chisel work and this is basically a 10mm square tool ground straight across. I find you can roll beads, slice end grain, make planing cuts, make sizing cuts and also size spigots and tennons (which is much more difficult with a skew).



EDIT: BSM got there quicker than me. :lol:


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## miles_hot (28 Sep 2009)

OK some more pics for Chas 

The offending article (ignore the differing grind and the odd bevel as this is just the WIP nature of the wretched thing).


 

 

 

 



For comparison the parting tool which I bought at the same time


 

 

 
A little test that I did with the skew before I attempted to sharpen it:



Miles


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## wizer (28 Sep 2009)

This is not a skew in the traditional sense Miles.


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## CHJ (28 Sep 2009)

OK Miles, I was mislead by the perspective of the original picture, I guess that's much the same as my 1/2" wide skew, just a little thicker/stiffer perhaps.

After all that, it's dry grinder to shape, Tormek to finish off, just not practical to reshape that much material.

One of my skews that I finished on a Tormek is gradually having the bevel steepened as I sharpen, I found the Tormek bevel a bit too shallow for the way I hold the skew.


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## miles_hot (28 Sep 2009)

CHJ":3hgglyfd said:


> OK Miles, I was mislead by the perspective of the original picture, I guess that's much the same as my 1/2" wide skew, just a little thicker/stiffer perhaps.
> 
> After all that, it's dry grinder to shape, Tormek to finish off, just not practical to reshape that much material.
> 
> One of my skews that I finished on a Tormek is gradually having the bevel steepened as I sharpen, I found the Tormek bevel a bit too shallow for the way I hold the skew.



Yes, glad I'd been using the right tool though, even if my chosen (initial) method of shaping it is daft! 

I suspect that the Tormek angle will be too shallow but it's all about trial and error really 

Miles


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## CHJ (28 Sep 2009)

Miles I find the shallow 'Tormek' angle not so much of a problem for me on a wider skew used on larger diameter spindles but I find it too aggressive on my smaller skew for some reason. Probably just me and my obscure approach to turning.


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## big soft moose (28 Sep 2009)

miles_hot":2xl9zr2c said:


> OK some more pics for Chas
> 
> The offending article (ignore the differing grind and the odd bevel as this is just the WIP nature of the wretched thing).
> 
> ...



As I though mate - thats a toolpost skew variant - the idea being that a thicker beading tool hybrid is easier to control than the traditional skew.

normally a beading tool is like a thick parting tool (my parting tool is 1/8 ins while my beading tool is 3/8 ) but what you have here is a wide piece of beading tool type stock grount to a skew edge


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## Geoff J Brown (29 Sep 2009)

Let me say straight away that I am the Marketing Manager for Tormek in the English speaking markets, and needless to say, I have been following the interesting discussion on the pros and cons of shaping and sharpening woodturning tools on a Tormek. I should like to address the question as to why one group of Tormek owners find great success using the Tormek System for turning tools, whereas others are disappointed. 

The Tormek approach to the sharpening of woodturning tools has evolved considerably over the years, so not everyone is fully up to date.

One of the keys to successful and satisfying woodturning is, of course, to have perfectly shaped and sharpened tools. A sound principle is that you should only need to shape the tools once, but then sharpen for ever. It is indisputable that you can remove steel more quickly on a dry grinder and this is helpful when you are first shaping a tool. It is for this reason that Tormek has recently developed the BGM-100 Bench Grinder Mount to enable to woodturner to use the Tormek Jigs on a dry grinder.

Once the shape has been created, then it can be exactly replicated on the Tormek Water Cooled Sharpening System. The TTS-100 Setter ensures that the profile is exactly replicated even with the larger stone sizes associated with Tormek. 

From hereon resharpening using a Tormek System takes less than 30 seconds and you remove only a fraction of the steel compared to a dry grinder, so the tools last much longer. The finer and honed surface on the tools also leave a much sharper edge, which makes the turning more gratifying.

Please forgive me if the above sounds a bit commercial, but they are the facts which I hope will enable everyone to make their own fully informed decision.

Geoff Brown


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## Martin Brown (29 Sep 2009)

In case you need more information here is a link for clarification.

Please come and see us at a show? Happy to show you more.

http://www.tormek.com/en/accessories/bgm100/index.php

Martin


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## gidon (8 Oct 2009)

Miles":12jwlju0 said:


> gidon":12jwlju0 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't use the black dressing stone after truing the wheel - you'll undo all the good work you've done with the diamond tool. I find the Tormek cuts pretty quickly after a fast past of the diamond truing too
> ...



Sorry - a bit late back to this - but I wasn't suggesting the black stone would effect the squareness - only that it would make the cut less aggressive - and you want the the fastest cut possible. 

Cheers

Gidon


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## miles_hot (9 Oct 2009)

gidon":1gzxlgz1 said:


> Miles":1gzxlgz1 said:
> 
> 
> > gidon":1gzxlgz1 said:
> ...



Ah, many thanks for the clarification. 

Miles


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## promhandicam (9 Oct 2009)

Geoff J Brown":bsl4zn5g said:


> Let me say straight away that I am the Marketing Manager for Tormek in the English speaking markets . . . . Geoff Brown



Geoff, may I be the first to welcome you to this forum. I can only speak for myself, but I think it is good to have people like yourself willing to participate in forums like this. Perhaps if you posted a more general introduction in the Woodworking section you might get a few more messages of support as most 'normal' woodworkers try and avoid the lathes section. 

Steve :wink:


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## big soft moose (9 Oct 2009)

promhandicam":2xx741nd said:


> you might get a few more messages of support as most 'normal' woodworkers try and avoid the lathes section.
> 
> Steve :wink:



thats only because the flat worlders fear giving into their most base desires and turning to the round side


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