# Guitars



## JFC (26 May 2007)

Today i took the plunge and decided to cut up some of Wenge i bought from Lesley . I wanted to save it for a worthy job and i think a wenge guitar will look amazing . 





After book matching the 5mm veneers to make the front and back i spoke to someone in the know who said wenge wouldn't make a very good sound board (front) so any ideas of what else i could use ? I have some figured Ash or does anyone want to swap some wenge for something else ?


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## Slim (26 May 2007)

There are a few ash topped guitars about, but the major manufacturers such as Martin, Taylor and Gibson don't use it. The normal tonewoods for guitar tops are spruce (Sitka & Engleman) and western red ceder. It would be a shame for you to have a stunning looking guitar and for it not to sound good.


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## Slim (26 May 2007)

I've also played a rosewood topped guitar, which sounded amazing.


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## JFC (26 May 2007)

Do you think wenge would sound bad ? I have a £50 out of the local paper crappy guitar that sounds better than all of my others . Is this tone wood talk for the orchestal crowd ? Saying that my semi acoustic has a tiger maple front and it sounds dull compared to the others .


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## Slim (26 May 2007)

I've just had a quick search through mimf and there are conflicting views as to whether wenge is a good tonewood or not. Take a look for yourself.


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## engineer one (26 May 2007)

jason, surely the ability of a wood to make a good soundboard is to do with the sub strata, and the design.

the fact that some cheap guitars and other instruments can sound better to us mere mortals than the expensive ones must frustrate many pro makers,
but surely the only way you are going to be sure is to do it???

presumably you are going to mount the veneers on ply, so that must be the defining factor rather than the look and feel of the front?

go for it, you can always moan at us later if it does not tune up as you want :twisted: :twisted: 

anyway doesn't the shape of the inner box, and the hole make a contribution to the sound quality and tone too?? as long as the sound board vibrates properly, and either dampens or doesn't as you want is surely the important thing? :roll: 

paul :wink:


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## Slim (26 May 2007)

engineer one":2ebys9mb said:


> presumably you are going to mount the veneers on ply



You could veneer over a spruce top. A thin veneer would not make much difference to the tonal qualities of the spruce.


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## JFC (26 May 2007)

No i was going to thin them down to about 3mm ish and make it from wenge .


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## Supernova9 (26 May 2007)

I don't think the Wenge has a great strength to weight ratio (which is the key factor in an acoustic top), so at that thickness it's likely to come apart without some pretty heavy bracing (which will in turn make the top and thus the instrument less responsive)

I'd use that stuff for the back of the instrument, but not the soundboard. Spruce'd be a good bet if you can find some.


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## Philly (26 May 2007)

I found Wenge to be very brittle too - at the thickness you are hoping for it may be unworkable.
Philly


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## JFC (26 May 2007)

Hmmmmmmm Ive been pointed towards this site http://www.ellisguitars.com/Wenge.html
Seems it's good for the back and sides .
I never even thought of getting it thinner and veneering a ply base , if it all goes wrong maybe i will do that .
I couldn't find the wenge debate on the mimf site .
It's fun having silly ideas innit


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## Slim (26 May 2007)

I think MIGNAL is a luthier. Might be worth asking him.


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## JFC (27 May 2007)

Well i started on the neck untill i find out more about the body 





I had the great idea of using a bit of wenge with the sap and heartwood on it but i'm a little worried that might have been a mistake even if it does look nice .


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## JFC (8 Jun 2007)

Bit of an update , i've bought some plans and a book aswell as some spruce for the soundboard and strutting ( The price hurt ) Anyway i've got on the best i can but the plans are not that detailed so any help would be appreciated .


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## Slim (8 Jun 2007)

Looking good. That back is stunning.

Don't forget to leave room for the kerfed lining when gluing the bracing. How do you plan to bend the sides?


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## DomValente (8 Jun 2007)

Looking good jason,  

Dom


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## Anonymous (8 Jun 2007)

Hmmmm, let's have a little think, first tune played......stairway to heaven ... 8)


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## andys wood shed (8 Jun 2007)

senior":2w5wmgzl said:


> Hmmmm, let's have a little think, first tune played......stairway to heaven ... 8)



I think Jason is more a Roger Whitaker or Burt Weedon fan :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Andy


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## engineer one (8 Jun 2007)

nah, he's too young to have even read about either of them :lol: :twisted: 

more john williams i think :roll:

paul :wink:


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## andys wood shed (8 Jun 2007)

Thanks Paul,
You have made me feel old now :wink: 

Andy


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## engineer one (8 Jun 2007)

well of course in the 60's we all wanted to learn guitar, and the book by bert weedon was the bible, sadly i found it difficult to figure out  

don't feel too bad andy all you have to say is that your grandad told you about it????? :twisted: :roll: 

paul :wink:


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## andys wood shed (8 Jun 2007)

But thats the sad part I've still got the book and can't play  

Andy :wink: 

ps. and as long as you don't tell everyone I've still got a few of Burt's LPs


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## engineer one (8 Jun 2007)

well they do say without him, there would be no clapton, and certainly most of the shadows blamed, or is it praised him???? :twisted: 

the real question is is that the naffest albumin your collection :lol: 

actually the only thing wrong with bert's technique was his smile :roll: 

paul :wink:


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## andys wood shed (8 Jun 2007)

Na The Wombles Greatest Hits


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## JFC (8 Jun 2007)

Just type the song you want followed by tab into google and it will give you the tab and normally tell you how to play the chords .
I'm learning this one right now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZyeFOFHvIc Cause it makes me laugh .
But i do like to slap a bit of willie dixon out on the double bass .
Maybe one day ......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsePsTEgiqU&mode=related&search=


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## Slim (9 Jun 2007)

This is what I aspire to, Doyle Dykes, widely regarded as the best guitarist in the world.


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## Bainzy (9 Jun 2007)

Have you had a look at the UK Guitar Builders Forum? I'm a regular poster there, it's a good place to ask questions like this and check out other peoples work. I'm only building electrics right now, but once I turn out a few more successful builds I might branch out into acoustics - the main thing putting me off is that since I've not played that many acoustics, I don't really know what I'm looking for in a build but after seeing yours now I'm thinking maybe its best to jump in at the deep end and try everything!


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## chetscott (9 Jun 2007)

Hello there,
Just discovered this forum, think I might spend quite some time here.
Re the advice about glueing a veneer to the top ,this is a big no-no as the glue line will seriously inhibit vibration and be a real tone killer.
The other advice I would give is to visit the mimf website, this is a superb resource for instrument builders and very friendly.
Also be aware that guitar building can get seriously addictive(ask me how I know :lol: )


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## Newbie_Neil (9 Jun 2007)

Hi chetscott

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil


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## Newbie_Neil (9 Jun 2007)

Hi all

I don't know if this site has been posted before, it's called Frets.

Cheers
Neil


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## JFC (9 Jun 2007)

How do i plan to bend the sides someone asked .

I have no idea  I was thinking of steaming them but reading up on it a bending iron is used . So either make or buy a bending iron i suppose :?


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## Woodmagnet (9 Jun 2007)

I saw Bert Weedon at a holiday camp in Scarborough 1972/3.  
P.S. I liked him.  :lol:


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## engineer one (9 Jun 2007)

scarborough, holiday camp, bert weedon, boy a combination to blow the brain. 

my memories of scarborough are olivers' mount, bazzer, and jarno saarinen blowing ago into the weeds about the same time. :roll: :twisted: 

such a wasted youth :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Slim (9 Jun 2007)

Here's an intersteing article on bending with a bending iron. I recon you could make one easily with the element from a cheap iron (clothes) and a steel rod.


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## MIGNAL (9 Jun 2007)

I use a solid alloy bending iron that I had cast years ago, it's electrically heated. The cheapest form of 'bending iron' is a simple hollow pipe at around 3 or 4 inch in diameter and heated with a propane torch. You have to reach a fairly high temperature, enough so that when you flick water at it the beads do a little merry dance. Forget steaming them, at a thickness of 2 mm or a little less that technique tends to result in your sides coming out very corrugated, they may corrugate even on a bending iron.
The other option is a 'fox bender' which is a strange contraption with light bulbs inside, popular with a lot of modern guitar makers. I hate them ( the fox bender
that is) -takes all the fun out of it.


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## luthier49 (10 Jun 2007)

Well here`s a collage of my Fox bending machine I made. I built light bulbs into my machine but I won`t be using them because I bought a heat belt to use with it. It also has a cut away attachment.







Here are my heat belts. The thin one at the back is for bending mandolin rims. I also purchased a machanical timer for theses belts to prevent burning them out.






This is my first experience of using these heat belts. I successfully bent a quite tricky part of an F5 style mandolin rim using the mandolin heat belt. I`ve already made two of these instruments and on each one I managed to crack the scroll while bending on an electric bending iron. Not fatal, as I repaired the crack with TiteBond and carried on bending when dry. Using the heat belt was a doddle. No problems at all, the rim was bent in six minutes, two and half for the belt to get up to temperature and the rest to bend. I spritzed the side with water, wrapped one layer of brown paper, one layer of Bacofoil secured with masking tape and this package was then placed between two strips of spring steel.


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## luthier49 (10 Jun 2007)

And here`s the result.






My electric bending iron.


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## dickm (10 Jun 2007)

Dunno how he will get on, but I "Freecycled" some cedar along with other clearance stuff today to a guy who had just bought an old piano for 99p on Ebay, and was going to use the spruce from the soundboard and the mahogany from the case to make a guitar


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## JFC (11 Jun 2007)

Thanks for the help everyone  
I've just been looking at some youtube clips and i have made the dovetail wrong and as you know this extends into the neck . Did i mention the plans i have don't show all detail !!!!!!!!!!!
So i now have a dovetail with the thinnest part at the neck and heel and the widest part where it joins the body , like a mortice dovetail i suppose .
Any way around this or do i have to remake the neck ? ](*,)


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## MIGNAL (11 Jun 2007)

Don't quite know what you mean. A picture or diagram would help.


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## JFC (11 Jun 2007)

I think i've messed the heel up aswell


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## MIGNAL (11 Jun 2007)

That is kind of the right shape, at this end i.e. the camera end it should be fairly small but at the far end it should be wider. You effectively have a wedge shape or taper in two directions. You also have to undercut the shoulders depending on the curvature of your upper bout - where the sides (ribs) come round and meet the neck/heel. This is not the type of joint that I normally do so I will have to dig out some measurements/dimensions for you.


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## JFC (11 Jun 2007)

Would i not be better leaving it as it is rather than making the camera end smaller ? From what i have been reading the only reason i can see would be to make it easier to take apart , or am i missing something again ? 
I thought this was going to be easy :shock: I take my hat off to you Sir , this is seriously time consuming detailed work !
If this guitar doesn't sound good i will show you how to take one apart in around 2.5 seconds :lol:


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## MIGNAL (11 Jun 2007)

2.5 seconds? Took me 2.34 seconds precisely.
Yes, the reason why the tapered dovetail is used is so that the joint/neck can be removed. I think you are making a Steel String - over the years the pull of steel strings changes the relationship between neck and guitar body - in other words the neck angle changes. To correct this the neck is removed, a little is shaved off key areas before being re-glued.
You could continue with this joint and providing you get a decent fit it should be fine. 15 or 20 years later when the neck needs resetting you may think otherwise. Your decision.
Try getting hold of the Cumpiano book, it really is a very good book and it is pretty cheap to buy.


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## JFC (11 Jun 2007)

2.34 seconds is the record to beat then :lol: 
If you want the other two blanks for the back i have cut MIGNAL you are welcome to them . I said before this was Wenge i bought from Lesley and waiting for that special project . If you can use them then they are yours .
And no everyone i'm not giving away free Wenge ! :lol:


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## luthier49 (12 Jun 2007)

The steel string guitar is constructed with a tapered dovetail joint. The reason being that the tension of the strings pulls against the back of the neck heel and the best fit possible is required at this point. Of course you don`t have to have a dovetail joint, you can also have a straight mortice and tenon or you can bolt the neck on with machine screws and threaded inserts. The machine screws go through the neck block and thead into the inserts in the neck.

Here`s a link to Stewart Macdonalds web site in the USA that details templates you can buy from them to machine the neck and body dovetail with a router. I have these jigs which I shall be using on my guitar build in progress now.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... ml#details

My progress so far. Some gorgeous quilted maple back and sides.






Some Spanish Olive wood for the rosette. It`s a twelve segment rosette and here I`m plane the mitres.






Here`s a dry assembly of the rosette. It will be bordered inside and out with black/white/black veneer inlay lines. The segments are the endgrain of the wood.


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## JFC (12 Jun 2007)

Thats a very helpfull website you have Bob .


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## andys wood shed (13 Jun 2007)

JFC":21eqodav said:


> If this guitar doesn't sound good i will show you how to take one apart in around 2.5 seconds :lol:



Jason,

You could keep it and use it as a paddle for your new boat :lol: 

Andy


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## JFC (15 Jun 2007)

If i take it apart i'll have a pair of oars :lol: 

Ok i've made a jig to try and bend the sides :shock: 
I screwed and glued blocks around the shape and glued in some bendy ply to give it a smoother shape .
I'm planning to try and steam the wenge into the shape with a wall paper stripper  
Question is will it work ??????? Opinions please , keep it nice eh :wink:


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## dunbarhamlin (15 Jun 2007)

Don't think a stripper will be up to it - you want to melt the wood, not delaminate it, so need plenty heat and a _little_ steam. Could get lucky, but the unsupported outer faces in the upper and lower bouts could well splinter.

May have better success as a one off using a clothes iron set to kill over a piece of broom handle.

This will work unless your sides are very thick, but is slower, harder to control and more prone to wood failure than a bending iron or heat blanket. (I used this approach for my first mandolin - it worked, but I had an order in for heat blankets _and_ a bending iron that very night)

(Standard disclaimer - this use was probably not anticipated during the product design cycle, and is not the safest way to bend sides - especially if your other half uses the iron berfore you've cleaned it up)

Cheers
Steve


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## JFC (15 Jun 2007)

Thanks , my sides are just shy of 2mm and i have controll over the iron :lol:


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## JFC (15 Jun 2007)

It only blinkin worked :shock: 
I used an old boiler flue with a blow torch shoved in the end as a bending iron :lol:


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## JFC (16 Jun 2007)

The linings going in with head and tail stock .













I just hope im doing it right :?


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## JFC (16 Jun 2007)

Hmmmm i should have cut this before i cut the sound hole  needs a bit of tweaking 






The bracing glued in place .


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## Colin C (16 Jun 2007)

HI JFC

Well done mate

Its looking very good \/


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## DomValente (16 Jun 2007)

Looking good.
Question, can you actually play the guitar :?:


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## JFC (16 Jun 2007)

:lol: To someone that doesn't play i do :lol: 
I played double bass in a swing jive band for years and then in a rockabilly band but playing bass on your own can get boring so i started on the guitar . I'm not great but i just love playing . I pick it up most days and play , it chills me out .


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## MIGNAL (17 Jun 2007)

That's a go-bar deck, pretty good but what's with the tape? Just be careful when you remove that stuff otherwise you might be pulling strings of wood off with it.
Is that top domed or is it flat?I know it's a flattop guitar but most flattop guitars are domed. . .but then again some flattop guitars are . . .flat.


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## JFC (17 Jun 2007)

The tape was there to hold down while i got the pressure on and to stop slipping . i thought it was a good idea  
The top is flat and the plan says 2.5 - 3mm thick , i assume the back needs to be the same thickness ? 
What would happen if the back was thicker , say 4-5 mm ?


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## Lord Nibbo (17 Jun 2007)

JFC":2955uu5k said:


> I assume the back needs to be the same thickness ?
> What would happen if the back was thicker , say 4-5 mm ?



You could only play heavy rock on it.....
Grab me coat :lol:


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## MIGNAL (17 Jun 2007)

2.5 to 3mm - a lot depends on the characteristics of the top wood and strutting thickness but those measurements are fairly typical. Same for the back but 4 - 5mm is very heavy, too much in my opinion. Need to lose some weight.


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## JFC (17 Jun 2007)

Belt sander time then ! More wenge dust  Its nasty stuff .

I've just spun the sides over to put the linings onto the bottom and there was some disturbing cracking noises . I thought about putting some thin wenge supports around the sides between the linings but read tape is used or spruce if anything atall . The reasons for nothing atall was that anyone playing a hand made guitar wont be bashing it around like a bloke in a bar . Erm .......So will wenge supports be ok then ? :lol: 
Or will it all become very rigid when the back and sides go on .


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## MIGNAL (17 Jun 2007)

I've never used side supports. Some people do, some don't. I think it might be better trying to locate exactly what is causing the disturbing noises. I doubt it's because of the lack of side supports. Check the linings are glued - no loose sections anywhere, otherwise that guitar will shake, rattle and . . . buzz.


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## JFC (17 Jun 2007)

One of the linings had popped off and snapped , i'll replace it when the others have dried .
Would it be a good idea to oil the inside before i glue on the top and soundboard or is it just left bear ?


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## MIGNAL (17 Jun 2007)

No oil should touch the surface of any wood in stringed musical instruments, at least according to the theory. Leave it bare.


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## JFC (17 Jun 2007)

Noted . Your right this is seriously addictive , it's been a lovely day for boating and i've been in the workshop all day working on this :lol: 
I've got the back down to 3mm and the curved supports fitted .








I wasn't going to add any purfling but now i've spent this much time on it i think i will . At first i thought Maple but Iroko looks good too . What do you think anyone ?

Iroko on the left looking at the pic 






And last of all i couldn't resist a mock up


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## Jake (17 Jun 2007)

JFC":3ed9mp5s said:


> I wasn't going to add any purfling but now i've spent this much time on it i think i will . At first i thought Maple but Iroko looks good too . What do you think anyone ?



The iroko looks fantastic, the grain and colour both go really well.


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## MIGNAL (17 Jun 2007)

Before you glue all this together just make sure the neck angle is correct. I cant really suggest one because the top is flat. Usually on a steel strung the neck is pulled back by 1 or 2mm, that's known as a negative angle. On a nylon strung the neck is pulled forward by approx. 2mm.
It is possible to work it out by drawing the cross section of bridge, saddle height, fingerboard thickness, fret height and the 'action' that you are aiming for. In fact you might not need a neck angle, it's possible it could lie in the same plane.
That bridge is way too thick, it should end up near 9 mm, with your saddle projecting above this by 3.5 - 4.5mm (bass side) and 2.5 -3.5mm treble side.
Fingerboard is usually around 6 mm thick as a finished dimension. Check these dimensions with the folk over at mimf. I build nylon strung so dimensions are quite different.
Things start to get a little more critical from here on in. That's just to cheer you up.


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## JFC (17 Jun 2007)

I agree Jake the Iroko does look good with the Wenge , as soon as i saw it on the rack my eyes lit up  

Now the hard part ? I thought i had done that bit :x From what i have been reading it says the neck is on the same plane as the soundboard but my dovetail has allowed for 2mm each way aswell as left and right :lol: 
I made the bridge while i was waiting for my book and plans so the top is how it is on one of my guitars and i was leaving the rest to cut down when i knew what to do .
The finger board is precut and 7mm , i think it has been shaped on the top but i'm not sure if im supposed to shape it some more to 6mm or just level the back :?


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## JFC (18 Jun 2007)

Bit more done today 

Scribing in the top






Scribing in the bottom






Bottom glued and fitted


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## JFC (19 Jun 2007)




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## Slim (19 Jun 2007)

Looks excellent. Did you make the fret board? If so, how did you measure out the frets?


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## JFC (19 Jun 2007)

No Ive bought a pre cut fret board , i figured for my first one id leave that part to the pros . I still have to shape it but the grooves are already there . That was just a dry fit of the neck , ive just glued the sound board on . Oh and remembered to cut some holes in the bottom of the jig so i can get the blinking thing out in the morning :lol:


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## JFC (20 Jun 2007)

A bit more done , i went for the maple in the end for the purfling . The Iroko looked really nice but took something away from the Wenge .














And the Iroko kept snapping


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## engineer one (20 Jun 2007)

without strings ????? :lol: :twisted: :lol: 

guitar looks good mate, be interesting to see what it looks like with strings etc.

now about all that broken iroko
:roll: 
paul :wink:


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## JFC (20 Jun 2007)

What broken Iroko
 
I need to do a bit of reading up on the next bit , i need to shape the fingerboard , work out where the bridge is going and the angle of the neck .
:?


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## JFC (21 Jun 2007)

Well i've shaped the fingerboard and made a wenge pick gaurd , i'm getting a bit scared to glue the neck to the body incase i get it wrong :? 







I'm not sure if the wenge pick gaurd is too much or not .


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## engineer one (21 Jun 2007)

i think it will look different when varnished mate.

go on big b**ls and glue it on :twisted: :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## woodworm (23 Jun 2007)

Hi, i've been lurking around this forum for a while, and this guitar looks great so far. I'd love to try making an acoustic one day especially if i can find mahogany like this! :shock:


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## DaveL (23 Jun 2007)

Hi woodworm,

Welcome to the forum. 

Your picture has been caught by our spamulator, that will stop once you have a few more posts to you name.

Here it is:


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## JFC (23 Jun 2007)

Welcome to the forum woodworm . That timber looks lovely , i think its called quilted but i'm not sure what part of the tree it comes from . Maybe just outside of a burl ?


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## woodworm (23 Jun 2007)

Thanks for putting the pic up, i found it a while ago whilst looking at the ultimate guitar dot com forum. It's supposed to be from a tree in Brazil that yeilded some amazing figured wood that was renowned by luthiers and only a few guitars have been made from it.


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## Supernova9 (24 Jun 2007)

That's quilted mahogany. You won't really find a supplier for it in the UK, bigger dealers in the US will sell guitars sets made from it - try www.gilmerwood.com amongst others. It will set you back a pretty penny though, I'd say a back and side set with figuring like that will easily be over £250.


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## Newbie_Neil (24 Jun 2007)

Hi Chris

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil


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## JFC (24 Jun 2007)

Been a busy guitar weekend with all the rain .
Fitted the neck , fingerboard and bridge aswell as making a bone nut and saddle . Bone stinks when you cut and sand it !


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## Lord Nibbo (25 Jun 2007)

Ummm.... Whats a bone nut and whats it for?


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## JFC (25 Jun 2007)

The nut and saddle support the strings , nut at the top of the fingerboard and saddle on the bridge .


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## JFC (26 Jun 2007)

Wooohooo it sounds like a guitar !






I need to do a bit more tweaking but i wont know where untill i've played with it a bit .

I've already taken a bit more off the neck


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## engineer one (26 Jun 2007)

jason, looks like you have shrunk the cello :lol: :lol: 

good work. mate hope it sounds as good as it looks
:roll: 
paul :wink:


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## Slim (26 Jun 2007)

Excelent, looks brill. What did you finish it with? I'm starting a Les Paul build soon, hope it turns out as well as yours.


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## dunbarhamlin (26 Jun 2007)

=D> Really nice. Nothing beats tentatively tuning up to pitch for the first time.

Steve


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## Philly (26 Jun 2007)

Congrats, Jason!
Looks fantastic- you must be very proud!
I'm going to start on an acoustic soon - thanks for the inspiration,
Philly


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## JFC (26 Jun 2007)

Finished it with Ronseal polyurethane gloss varnish in the end i was told it was the easiest to use  
I've left it with just one coat for now as i think i will be tweaking for a while .


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## tiler99 (26 Jun 2007)

JFC":1e2haq7l said:


> Finished it with Ronseal polyurethane gloss varnish in the end i was told it was the easiest to use
> I've left it with just one coat for now as i think i will be tweaking for a while .




TWEAKING ????? i thought you strummed ? :wink:


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## JFC (26 Jun 2007)

Philly if you want tips on what not to do then feel free to ask , For tips on what to do please don't ask me :lol: 
I must say a big thankyou to MIGNAL for all the help he has given me , i think i would be lost without his advice and also thanks to everyone else that gave tips . 
This has been a seriously fun project and not over yet but the next one will be far better .


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## MIGNAL (26 Jun 2007)

Thats pretty damn good for a first guitar and completed faster than someone who has been doing it for nearly twenty years  As they say in this trade: My next one is going to be the great masterpiece. . .


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