# Any tricks to make this look less wide?



## RogerS (22 Jul 2011)

I'm playing around with the design for a new sash window. My problem is that the aspect ratio of the opening is very non-sash at 1070mm high x 1420mm wide. So the plan was to have a main sash in the middle of more 'normal' sash proportions and then have two narrow faux-sashes on either side.

My problem is that I want to minimise the width of the two sets of 'boxes' as they are no longer at the sides and so partly hidden by the reveal. I've sized down the various elements - even to the extent of sacrificing aesthetics by making the outer faux-sashes more like plain glazed panels. And yet the end result when viewed straight-on is still very wide.

So are there any tricks such as grooves/whatever that I can run down the outer and inner linings to make them look slimmer?

Inner lining not shown for clarity. The bit on the left is the stile for the actual sash.

TIA


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## AndyT (22 Jul 2011)

Ignore me if I've misunderstood, but I think the fundamental problem is that you are in an old cottage where the windows should be casements. As you say yourself, the proportions are not right for sashes (assuming you mean double, vertically sliding sashes). So a central mullion and a pair of side hung sashes.

On a different tack entirely, could you help the proportions for sashes by removing the thin bit, and making the windows go all the way down to the sill?


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## RogerS (23 Jul 2011)

Hi Andy...it's not so much a cottage as a house. Double gable with the front half c.1800 rural/farming Georgian and already has sashes on three aspects. One of these is a new sash window one bay along from the window above. I did initially like your idea of a central mullion and two sashes on either side...that was until I worked out the size of this central mullion which with the visible parts of the two stiles on either side presents nearly 200mm! A monster.

Not sure what you mean by _removing the thin bit, and making the windows go all the way down to _the sill


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## RogerS (23 Jul 2011)

We're coming round to narrowing the width and knocking out a bit of the wall beneath the current window down to the 'seat'...which I think is what you were talking about Andy.

This is the external shot


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## AndyT (23 Jul 2011)

Hi Roger,

yes that's what I meant - possibly remove the thin bit of wall below the existing window.
And I didn't make myself very clear when I wrote about side opening sashes when I meant casements.

Interesting challenge though when part of the house has already been altered for sashes. From the picture you added, I'd say the theme is that if you want more sashes then their proportions should be close to what is already there, so you have to change the window opening in the wall to suit. The opposite of making the windows to fit the opening!


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## Jacob (23 Jul 2011)

You do get odd shaped sashes every now and then such as shop windows. Looking at yours you could have the same pane layout (6x4) with exactly equal panes, but make the top sash 6x3 and the bottom sash 6x1 but not suspended, just loose (or fixed). Sounds peculiar but asymmetric layouts are not that uncommon.
I certainly wouldn't start hacking at the opening until you have looked at all the design options - there are others to be sure.
Also I wouldn't bother tidying up the facade to make windows match. Old cottages are like that, mock Georgian Barratt homes aren't. "Tidying up" is often the worst thing you can do to a nice old building. Kiss of death in many cases.

PS it's very nice that "wide" window - fer gawds sake don't hack it about to make it "fit"!

I've been here before - advising people to leave their quaint old building alone. Just ask them why they want things to look the same or uniform and they often can't come up with an intelligent answer.


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## RogerS (24 Jul 2011)

That's certainly food for thought, Jacob. My problem is in trying to visualise it as most photographs I've seen have always shown the windows tall as opposed to 'wide'. Do you have any links to any images that show what you have in mind?

I mocked up the opening were we to adopt the narrower version and it does make the room look dark although one has to factor in the loss of light from the two existing mullions and also that part of the wall will go and so shed more light. However, I'm still thinking it will be too dark.

EDIT: We've decided that it's too dark and will remove some of the wall above and below the existing window opening and end up with a sash window 1m wide and 1.6m high....at least that is the current plan!


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## Eric The Viking (24 Jul 2011)

You might gain by using lead instead of iron for the weights (expensive though). I think I've also seen square-section iron weights, which make better use of the sash box too. Either way, you won't gain much width.

To be honest, I think casements would look nicer in your context, though. They're also far easier to draught-proof and will carry double glazing better (it's the rough equivalent of 6mm or 8mm), as that also means heavier/bigger weights.


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## doctor Bob (24 Jul 2011)

Have you tried tilting your head and squinting .... works for me.


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## jasonB (25 Jul 2011)

Get her in doors to hang some long floor to ceiling curtains will make the opening look taller(when open)

I've just been opening up a large bay where the ceiling in the bay was at door height so about 2m and made the room very dark. It now has an 8ft wide by 2.3m folding sliding door in the bay and the angled returns are a single pane 1.0m wide x 2.3 high and the bay ceiling is now 2.65m Makes the room completely different.


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## RogerS (26 Jul 2011)

OK...decisions made and many thanks to all. 

1) Drop the wall below the cill down to the 'seat'
2) Make a 8 x 8 (ie each sash has two rows of four panes) sash window ...ever so slightly narrower than the current width
3) square off the reveal

I'll do a decent WIP this time


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## Chrispy (17 Aug 2011)

Hello there I've just stumbled on your thread.
Two things to think about if its not to late, one have you thought of sash springs instead of using weights? or a more traditional way the weight boxes don't need to next to the moving sash they can be at the extreme sides (ie next to the brickwork ) by taking the cords over the top of the side lights you will need an extra set of pulleys etc.


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## RogerS (17 Aug 2011)

Thanks for the suggestions, Chris. 

Sash springs? Spawn of Satan !

Your suggestion re putting the boxes at the outside is rather good. Luckily I've only got as far as sorting out the wood and so will give that idea some thought.


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## RogerS (17 Aug 2011)

Thought given. Chief Designer consulted and approval given.

Many thanks, Chris, a cracking suggestion. Three lights it is.


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## AndyT (17 Aug 2011)

Here's a diagram of that solution, from Ellis's Modern Practical Joinery:


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## RogerS (17 Aug 2011)

Thanks, Andy. Lots of detail.


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## Ollie78 (26 Sep 2011)

You could do a venetian. With the weights at the outside running over the top of the fixed panes. 
Ollie


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## RogerS (26 Sep 2011)

I think that that was what Andy was suggesting.

Anyway, we went for a normal sash, split evenly 2 x 4 on each sash. I'm too embarrassed to post a photo. They look cr*p. Completely the wrong aspect ratio. So ere long, I'll be remaking the sashes but this time, top sash 1 x 4 and bottom sash 2 x 4. That way the aspect ratio is correct.

On a slight OT, while mulling over the format of the sashes, I'd never seen a 1 x 5 or a 2 x 5 window. Plenty of x 3 but nary a 5 or even a seven. But then blow me down if watching the box, one play and one film, two properties...one with 5's and the other with 7's


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