# Apprenticeships



## hawkeyefxr

I wrote something on the 'parting off' post.
It got me thinking about Apprenticeships and who has done one.
I started mine in 1966, my stating rate was 1s 6p per hour (about 18p in todays money) At the end i got my indentured papers on like parchment paper in fancy scroll writing, and still have them lol.
Anyone else??


----------



## Trevanion

I did my joinery apprenticeship not so long ago, I was getting paid £3.50 per hour taking home £148 per week. I didn't get any fancy papers, just a C&G qualification certificate!


----------



## AES

I started my aircraft engineering apprenticeship in the RAF in May 1961.


----------



## Distinterior

I started my Electrical & Mechanical Engineering apprenticeship in 1978 straight from school at the age of 16. My father had to sign the Indentured Agreement with the Engineering company if I remember correctly...??
My family were in the process of moving from one end of the country to the other at the time, so I knew none of the other lads that started at the same time as me. There were 12 of us that year.

4 days at work & 1 day a week + 1 evening at college (approximately 46 hours/week) College was a long day as it was an hour each way by Train.....
For the first year, my take home pay was £16.13p/ week.
After 4 years, I also got indentured papers as you describe.

It was in a Factory environment and I hated it (clocking in & clocking out twice a day)
I left when I was 20 and have never been tempted to go back to that environment again.


----------



## toolsntat

After using the Yellow Pages and days of touring businesses in the local area (thank you Grandad) we took a wrong turn to a village and visited the only place suitable.
I was offered my first job there in a builders workshop on a learn on the job basis. They made and fitted everything, bar the Sapele interior doors (remember them?) I took it as I really wanted to start working. Some time later they asked if I wanted to get my papers but declined and carried on. Subsequently only one place turned me down for not having them.
Cheers Andy


----------



## Gerry

I started my engineering apprenticeship in 1979 straight from school. My indentures were presented to me by Douglas Bader.

Gerry


----------



## clogs

I did my training that way...first weeks pay 17s6d.....I got more than that for making chips after school.....
I have no idea where my papers are and never been asked for them......
Last job before retirement, I was responsible for a £45,000,000 eng project......
didn't leave untill it was signed off.....
not to shabby for a bum grease monkey in overall's.....
Oh, retirement....WHATS THAT>>>>>>?????? hahaha.....


----------



## Phil Pascoe

I had a change of direction at work, and one day a chap I had worked with before came and asked for some help - he had a problem he couldn't solve. I went with him, found the cause and returned to what I was doing before. The guy I was working with asked if I had any qualifications to do the job I did before. Not unless you count being very good at it as a qualification, I laughed. Why do you ask? I didn't think you did, he said, I just find it amusing that you have no qualifications and he's asking you to sort out his problems - he's an NVQ assessor.

A young girl I worked with was a very good pattissiere. She went for an interview at one of the very best London restaurants, and we asked how she got on. Oh, she said, the actual interview was quite short but when it ended they pulled two bags of groceries out from under the table, pointed to the kitchen saying the ovens were already hot. I asked what they wanted cooked and they shrugged and said you show us. She got the job. 
I felt that was a good a way as any of employing someone, but now it's all whether you've the paperwork or not.


----------



## marcros

I don't think that the last statement is actually correct. Having the correct qualifications is used as a screening process but there needs to be something when there are dozens of people applying for each position, including several that have no relevant experience or qualifications at all. 

Interviews focus on what you have done and ask pertinent questions to get through the bullsh1t. They are a grilling, they want facts, numbers, results, examples. They won't be fobbed off with results that the company achieved, they want to know specifically what you did with regards to those results. 

When I was at school I remember various career lessons about transferrable skills. Even if you go back to study and get the "paperwork" expected for a job, nowadays it is close to impossible to change careers. Entry level positions they will say you are overqualified, mid level you are competing with somebody who is doing the exact same job elsewhere and has years of experience. 

Getting the qualification is the easiest step in a foot in the door, but that alone isn't enough. If you have experience only, the hardest part is having the opportunity to demonstrate it. Obviously some jobs it is easier to show than others. A chef or a joiner can offer to demonstrate their skills and a boss may well be happy to allow this. A wannabe surgeon is less welcomed in the operating theatre without the necessary NVQ.


----------



## hawkeyefxr

Gerry said:


> I started my engineering apprenticeship in 1979 straight from school. My indentures were presented to me by Douglas Bader.
> 
> Gerry


Wow that was something!!


----------



## hawkeyefxr

Got the 18p bit wrong, it was 8p (new money) that was for a 5 1/2 day week (48hrs) One day week college from 9am to 8pm
I was on £20.00 per week at the end of the week, rich !!!!!!


----------



## Linwoodjoinery

I started my apprenticeship straight from school in 1993 an I was identured and still have the paperwork. I remember having to go in with my dad and he had to sign it too. I think I was one of the last though as in my years interviewing trades and assessing apprentices etc I have not come across any recent ones.


----------



## Distinterior

Does an "Indentured Apprenticeship " still exist, as such...? Or, is it just various levels of NVQ's now?


----------



## Doug B

It took me four years to get my city & guilds & whilst I thoroughly enjoyed my time at college I’ve never had an interview to use them at, I think the paperwork must be in the loft.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

I remember reading emergency editions of the local weekly paper published in the late '50's that were produced by the managers and indentured apprentices as the indentured apprentices were not legally allowed to go on strike.


----------



## Distinterior

Phil Pascoe said:


> .....as the indentured apprentices were not legally allowed to go on strike.



Yes, ...There were a couple of strikes whilst I was an apprentice but we were not allowed to.

I remember objecting to the fact that I HAD TO PAY Union Contributions out of every pay packet whether I wanted to or not.
If you chose not to pay it to the Union, it was still deducted but paid to a charity instead....


----------



## I’ve got wood worm!

I’m looking for joinery work now but am considering finding a C+G apprenticeship as its proving tough to find a spot in a small workshop locally.
House bashing for a housing developer never appealed to me but with so many positions readily available and a regular pay check, it is becoming a recurring consideration, but they screen out anyone with an apprenticeship I believe. For context, I’m 33, have two kids and live in Glasgow. I could afford to live on apprentice wages for the time being. I definitely want to upskill but not sure what the best route is...
Anyone else in the same position?


----------



## craigs

I'd like to do my own thing, but couldn't afford to leave my miserable office job and pay the bills, so for the foreseeable future it will remain a hobby. my hope is that as the big bills fall, if can make a it of pocket money that would good, but ill see what comes of it. i'm thinking of just offering free labour on a friday to a local workshop (i work sun-thurs) to gain a bit more experience.


----------



## Spectric

Hi there



Distinterior said:


> I started my Electrical & Mechanical Engineering apprenticeship in 1978 straight from school at the age of 16.



Hi there

I assume you moved from North to Colchester, if so was the company Woods who made the fans and extraction systems? I can remember meeting guys from that company at the local colledge when I was doing a welding course there.


----------



## Distinterior

Spectric said:


> Hi there
> 
> 
> 
> Hi there
> 
> I assume you moved from North to Colchester, if so was the company Woods who made the fans and extraction systems? I can remember meeting guys from that company at the local colledge when I was doing a welding course there.



I did indeed move from the North East down to Essex but the company I started working for was not Woods...( Woods still exists though!).

I worked for a local Engineering company that made paper counting machines and also labelling/packaging machines.
The company was part of and still remains part of the Portals Group.

I had a couple of mates that started their apprenticeships with Colchester Lathes and Paxman Diesels at the same time as me. Both these companies were based in Colchester and their apprentices attended the College in Colchester.
My College was in Ipswich.


----------



## joethedrummer

Hello ,, funny when a name from the past jumps out at you,, Woods of Colchester was the very firm that I started my indentured apprenticeship at in August 1961,, the factory has gone ., you must have been at Vacuumatic ?.


----------



## Distinterior

joethedrummer said:


> Hello ,, funny when a name from the past jumps out at you,, Woods of Colchester was the very firm that I started my indentured apprenticeship at in August 1961,, the factory has gone ., you must have been at Vacuumatic ?.



Yes Joe,...Vacuumatic.

They were not based in Colchester at that time but they are now I believe.


----------



## Distinterior

I've lost touch with most of the other 11 guys I started with, except for 1 of them. We became very good friends and I still see him regularly. I was his Best Man about 10 years ago.

From what I hear about any of the others, none of us are still in that type of work.


----------



## Yojevol

▶ Thurs 1 Sept 1966 Start Apprentiship
⏸ Sun 4 Sept 1966 Pause apprentiship - high jinx with new found friends causes fractured knee cap
▶ Mon 3 Oct 1966 Restart apprenticeship. Can't stand all day in workshop so put on light duties in the training drawing office for a month, wonderful experience.
 Tue 31 Mar 1998 Made redundant - electricity supply industry downsizing
⏭ Fri 14 Jul 2000 Complete final stage of life's apprentiship, aka BTECH in Furniture Making
▶ Sat 15 Jul 2000 Living the life

▼


▼


▼


▼


▼
⏹ Who Knows When


----------



## Felix

I’ve got wood worm! said:


> I’m looking for joinery work now but am considering finding a C+G apprenticeship as its proving tough to find a spot in a small workshop locally.
> House bashing for a housing developer never appealed to me but with so many positions readily available and a regular pay check, it is becoming a recurring consideration, but they screen out anyone with an apprenticeship I believe. For context, I’m 33, have two kids and live in Glasgow. I could afford to live on apprentice wages for the time being. I definitely want to upskill but not sure what the best route is...
> Anyone else in the same position?


I'm in a similar position (although older than you judging from your image) I am a C&G 236 (parts I and II) qualified electrician and have never completed an apprenticeship. I never got into this line of work until I was 24 (by which time apprenticeships were pretty much non-existent) I've spent most of my time as a sparks working on commercial/industrial installations. I spent 5yrs at university studying computer science and then spent 5 years in IT and now I can't even bring myself to write a single line of code. I am now teaching myself to make furniture and carve wood. I don't have a mortgage and I have a 9m x 5m workshop at the bottom of my garden and I spend most waking hours in there 'doing stuff' (that's what I tell my wife) and I just love it. It seems to me that the only options to upskill in the furniture making arena is to sign up for a course with the well established furniture makers i.e David Savage, Marc Fish, David Charlesworth, Peter Sefton et-al - they all run various courses over different durations. They are however, expensive (around £18k for a year plus accommodation and travel). It's not an apprenticeship per-se, but you do get a certificate. These people are highly thought of in their field and I think having studied under their tutelage carries a lot of weight when applying for positions within the industry.

I, like you am not interested in domestic/construction carpentry and would dearly love to join an organisation, but I'm 60 next year and I think my ship has sailed ( I would swap it all for a career making furniture in a heartbeat). So I'll just keep teaching myself, watching loads of Youtube stuff and ask questions - you never know - there might be some lunatic out there who needs an older worker still willing to work hard and learn new skills.

Good Luck with your quest
Dno (www.andonart.com)


----------



## I’ve got wood worm!

bowmaster said:


> I'm in a similar position (although older than you judging from your image) I am a C&G 236 (parts I and II) qualified electrician and have never completed an apprenticeship. I never got into this line of work until I was 24 (by which time apprenticeships were pretty much non-existent) I've spent most of my time as a sparks working on commercial/industrial installations. I spent 5yrs at university studying computer science and then spent 5 years in IT and now I can't even bring myself to write a single line of code. I am now teaching myself to make furniture and carve wood. I don't have a mortgage and I have a 9m x 5m workshop at the bottom of my garden and I spend most waking hours in there 'doing stuff' (that's what I tell my wife) and I just love it. It seems to me that the only options to upskill in the furniture making arena is to sign up for a course with the well established furniture makers i.e David Savage, Marc Fish, David Charlesworth, Peter Sefton et-al - they all run various courses over different durations. They are however, expensive (around £18k for a year plus accommodation and travel). It's not an apprenticeship per-se, but you do get a certificate. These people are highly thought of in their field and I think having studied under their tutelage carries a lot of weight when applying for positions within the industry.
> 
> I, like you am not interested in domestic/construction carpentry and would dearly love to join an organisation, but I'm 60 next year and I think my ship has sailed ( I would swap it all for a career making furniture in a heartbeat). So I'll just keep teaching myself, watching loads of Youtube stuff and ask questions - you never know - there might be some lunatic out there who needs an older worker still willing to work hard and learn new skills.
> 
> Good Luck with your quest
> Dno (www.andonart.com)


Thanks for linking my post! Yes it’s tough isn’t it.
I took a look at your link above, what a great spoon you’ve carved. The lovespoon. A real labour of love I bet.


----------



## Spectric

Hi there

Yes I think Woods is one of the few survivors now Paxman has gone, and the name Colchester Lathes has gone elswhere such a shame, anyone in engineering will have come across a Colchester Bantam lathe at some time or other but then so much else has gone as well, great names such as Marconi, Cromptons, EEV and RHP in chelmsford, the days when you could leave a job Friday and start a new one Monday! 

I have done the reverse, left the South and gone North as am semi retired now.


----------



## Tanglefoot20

hawkeyefxr said:


> I wrote something on the 'parting off' post.
> It got me thinking about Apprenticeships and who has done one.
> I started mine in 1966, my stating rate was 1s 6p per hour (about 18p in todays money) At the end i got my indentured papers on like parchment paper in fancy scroll writing, and still have them lol.
> Anyone else??


Hello there... I still have mine. The skilled mans gold dust.i served mine in precision engineering....aircraft fuel pumps etc...served time 1971/76....gained full tech certificate in production engineering...there must be others out there with indentures...,,ps they were on parchment paper...not like !


----------



## akirk

Distinterior said:


> Does an "Indentured Apprenticeship " still exist, as such...? Or, is it just various levels of NVQ's now?


Technically yes, the London livery companies still run apprenticeships, however they are more of an entry route into the livery company in question... when I had an apprentice we had the formal paperwork, separated and one half filed in theHall, one half in Guildhall - quite fun to go through the centuries old process... lasted 4 years and then my apprentice was made free...

not sure whether they are still used in that way in actual trades.


----------



## redhunter350

hawkeyefxr said:


> I wrote something on the 'parting off' post.
> It got me thinking about Apprenticeships and who has done one.
> I started mine in 1966, my stating rate was 1s 6p per hour (about 18p in todays money) At the end i got my indentured papers on like parchment paper in fancy scroll writing, and still have them lol.
> Anyone else??



I started my apprenticeship in 1960, 47 hour week with one day at college plus two unpaid night school classes per week, 1s 2d per hour came to £2 15s per week [£2.75] The company was a sub contractor to the aerospace and nuclear industries making largely prototype items and tooling -- very varied work and enjoyed every minute !


----------



## Felix

I’ve got wood worm! said:


> Thanks for linking my post! Yes it’s tough isn’t it.
> I took a look at your link above, what a great spoon you’ve carved. The lovespoon. A real labour of love I bet.


Yes it's tough, but you have to keep going forward. Thanks for the comments on the spoon. I see things like that on ebay for £20 - £30.....doesn't even get close to the number of hours spent carving it. It seems to me that if you want to live the life of an artisan you have to be prepared to live frugally and just love what you do and sell what you can when you can - it's more of a lifestyle than a living.


----------



## Steve Blackdog

hawkeyefxr said:


> Got the 18p bit wrong, it was 8p (new money) that was for a 5 1/2 day week (48hrs) One day week college from 9am to 8pm
> I was on £20.00 per week at the end of the week, rich !!!!!!



you are making me nostalgic for old money. A ten Bob note for Christmas was really something! half a crown! Threepenny bits! Sixpences!


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Ten decent pints for a quid. Good going when you were sixteen.


----------



## schnapps95

Re Apprenticeships

I started my apprenticeship in carpentry and joinery when I was 15 years old in May 1956 at the hourly rate of 1 shilling (5p) per hour which was ¼ of the tradesman’s rate rising by 1/8 per year until at 21 years you were on full tradesman’s rate and finished your apprenticeship, I also had to have a medical each year until the age of 18 years (regulations at the time, this was done away with in about 1972).

I then attended Darlington College of Further Education the course was titled Carpentry and Joinery (now is site or bench joiner no mention of carpentry). In the first years we sat the Northern Counties exams, in the final years I sat and passed the City and Guilds also the Full Technological Certificate (also awarded a prize) and the Associate Exams for the British Institute of Certified Carpenters (B.I.C.C.) which later became the Institute of Carpenters (I.O.C).

I am still involved in business and obtaining apprentices is a nightmare, nobody seems to want to train in manual jobs anymore, we normally use the C.I.T.B. (Construction Industry Training Board) apprenticeship scheme but if the candidate has got below C grades in Maths and English in his school exams he has to do these at an extra day at college, which is more expense for us.

In 50 odd years the apprenticeship has gone from 6 years down to 3 years (its called progress?), although some things have remained constant.
In 1956 tradesmen received 4 Shillings (20p) per hour, 1 pint of beer was approx. 1 shilling (5p).
In 2020 tradesmen received £13.17 per hour and 1 pint of beer is about £3.20.
So the tradesman today is still working a ¼ hour to buy a pint of beer (food for thought).


----------



## Phil Pascoe

I have invigilated many maths GCSE papers. The usual format, iirc ( one board at least) was that for one paper at foundation level (where you could still get up to a "C" pass) you took the first 23 out of forty questions, for advanced level (where you could get all grades) the last 23.
here's a selection of the foundation level questions - 

Write six thousand and eight in numbers.
What is 17 + 14 ?
How many fifty pences are there in £200 ?
What is 4 x 27 ?

I copied out ten of the questions, showed them to ten people I knew involved in some way in education (from a TA through teachers and heads to a university lecturer) and asked how old a child they thought the questions were set for. The answers were one ten, one eight and eight nines.
Maths and English aren't the be all and end all, maybe, but I'd think anyone hiring someone who'd failed them was hiring a liability. If someone had given me that paper as an eleven plus or common entrance paper I'd have laughed at them.


----------



## AES

Blimey Phil! You have well & truly "smacked my gob"!

BTW, I would say that at least "basic arithmetic" and basic English (if you live/work in England or any other English-speaking country) ARE indeed the "be all and end all" of shall we say "basic living" in those countries!

Another BTW; the entrance exam I took to be even interviewed for the RAF Apprenticeship had a pass mark (unknown to the sitters of course) and if you failed, that was it - "end of" - i.e. you only got invited to the Selection/Interview process - 3 days IF I remember correctly - if you passed the entry exam. And the Q's were a bit more "complex" than the ones you quote above (and included English, History, "General Science", and "General Knowledge" as well as "Maths")!

What I really don't understand is that for a long while, apprenticeships stopped altogether in UK (as pointed out by several posters above). Not so in other countries such as Switzerland for example. Yes, a uni-level education really is necessary for some, particularly in "scientific" subjects, but I can't understand any industrialised country doing away with apprenticeships altogether.

I wonder if any UKW members currently working the "new" UK apprenticeships "system" have any comments about how it goes in UK today (apart from the price of beer that is)! 

I guess I'm just a boring old fart (as ever).


----------



## dannyr

I didn't do one. Respect to those who did - I knew several who did J Neill or Laycocks in Sheff, RR Aero in Derby - skilled men and a few women (more now).

If you did - do you still have anything you made at that time -- eg sometimes see some patternmakers planes, measuring tools or engineering apprs gauges or work holders, vices, clamps etc, eg tool shop, foundry workers pieces?


The most impressive ex appr I knew was a colleague apprenticed at Sheepbridge Works Chesterfield - much later started an engineering degree but stopped when he decided he knew more than the lecturers (including maths and theory) -- I remember he gave his son a newish motor bike as a 16th present but took it to pieces first - his son later got a good job and was soon fast-tracked.


----------



## hawkeyefxr

I started this post and reading the stories is like stepping back in time.
Another little story, I was talking about the the foreman of my shop anf he heard me. He asked " are you taking the mickey out of me", i replied (all lippy like a 17/18 year old) " i wouldn't take you anywhere Charlie" That was it, he chased me all over the place eventually catching, i got a clip round the ear for my remark. He was a good bloke and i looked up to him. That kind of thing is not allowed now but i don't think it hurt me in anyway, just part of growing up.When you see/hear kids now it bears no resemblance to back in the mid 60's.


----------



## Droogs

Reminds me of how my Drill Cpl in basic introduced himself to us sprogs, "I am Cpl Everidge and I'm your Drill Instuctor. I'm sure we are all going to get along swimmingly but, if we have do have words at any time the second word will be you shouting OW"
Oh those were the days


----------



## Robin Whitfield

I started an apprenticeship a decade ago on approx £7.5k a year although admittedly not in woodworking/metalworking (IT/Networking with an A/V company), and just found that it was just taking the p*ss. There was no hard work and solid training, it was just a case of _pay the young guy sod all and take advantage, while sending him off to *generic training* every few weeks._
After a year of that I scrapped off the apprenticeship and (still with zero paperwork and a part-finished training course) I used my experience to get a proper job at 2.5x the pay. I had a good run there climbing the ladder then left to another disappointing role before deciding to work for myself.

Now with this lockdown situation I keep flitting with the idea of going back to that nice reliable desk job (admittedly mostly at home) to get myself a few bob to spend on more tools...

In my opinion the big issue with apprenticeships now is that they're thought of as a second choice for those who can't get the grades to go to university. This has left us with a generation of trades people who (in my experience) on the whole have little interest in excelling in their trade or taking real pride in their work.
This issue is compounded by the general attitude today that faster and cheaper is always the way to go so long as it's better than _the bare minimum._


----------



## AES

Very interesting Robin, thanks


----------



## Robin Whitfield

I will say that not everyone on the training I was doing had quite the same experience - in fact the company I went to work for afterwards had one of my fellow apprentices working for them and he was paid a far more reasonable 75% of the normal pay for the junior role that he was in.
I'd also say he was treated with the same respect as anyone else in the department, but we did have a tea trolley turn up twice a day so there was no point sending him off to make hot drinks!

Needless to say it still annoyed him somewhat that I'd escaped my apprenticeship to then go and do the same job as him but with 25% more pay!


----------



## schnapps95

AES said:


> Blimey Phil! You have well & truly "smacked my gob"!
> 
> BTW, I would say that at least "basic arithmetic" and basic English (if you live/work in England or any other English-speaking country) ARE indeed the "be all and end all" of shall we say "basic living" in those countries!
> 
> Another BTW; the entrance exam I took to be even interviewed for the RAF Apprenticeship had a pass mark (unknown to the sitters of course) and if you failed, that was it - "end of" - i.e. you only got invited to the Selection/Interview process - 3 days IF I remember correctly - if you passed the entry exam. And the Q's were a bit more "complex" than the ones you quote above (and included English, History, "General Science", and "General Knowledge" as well as "Maths")!
> 
> What I really don't understand is that for a long while, apprenticeships stopped altogether in UK (as pointed out by several posters above). Not so in other countries such as Switzerland for example. Yes, a uni-level education really is necessary for some, particularly in "scientific" subjects, but I can't understand any industrialised country doing away with apprenticeships altogether.
> 
> I wonder if any UKW members currently working the "new" UK apprenticeships "system" have any comments about how it goes in UK today (apart from the price of beer that is)!
> 
> I guess I'm just a boring old fart (as ever).


----------



## schnapps95

Having just read the post by AES and others i did'nt know the UK had stopped apprenticeships at one time or am i missing something ?. We have been training apprentices for the past 54yrs and i have friend whose two sons refused to go to university and then got an apprenticeships in the steel industy approx eight years ago

Regarding any comments about the present the apprenticeships our gripe is the teachers at college when it comes to practical work, we keep getting feedback that we are doing things wrong the last time this happend i told the apprentice to ask him how he would do a fox mortice and tennon and suggested he purchased a copy of Charles Haywards book Woodwork Joints but i did'nt get a reply.

Because our work is very varied we teach them a lot of old fashioned ( like the writer ) methods and ways etc,if anyone is interested in what we do you could visit our website at (www.atkinsonsjoiners.co.uk)


----------



## marcros

I don't think apprenticeships stopped, they are possibly harder to get now than many years back and no doubt they have changed somewhat over time.


----------



## AES

OK, it can well be that I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I haven't lived in UK or been there (apart from short business or personal trips) for almost 40 years now. Sorry if I've created a red herring.

But what I THINK I do know (not 100% sure) is that the RAF don't run the sort of apprenticeship that I went through in the '60s. (No doubt someone will shout if I've got that wrong too please).


----------



## hawkeyefxr

Droogs said:


> Reminds me of how my Drill Cpl in basic introduced himself to us sprogs, "I am Cpl Everidge and I'm your Drill Instuctor. I'm sure we are all going to get along swimmingly but, if we have do have words at any time the second word will be you shouting OW"
> Oh those were the days


 That made me laugh.


----------



## hawkeyefxr

Robin Whitfield said:


> I started an apprenticeship a decade ago on approx £7.5k a year although admittedly not in woodworking/metalworking (IT/Networking with an A/V company), and just found that it was just taking the p*ss. There was no hard work and solid training, it was just a case of _pay the young guy sod all and take advantage, while sending him off to *generic training* every few weeks._
> After a year of that I scrapped off the apprenticeship and (still with zero paperwork and a part-finished training course) I used my experience to get a proper job at 2.5x the pay. I had a good run there climbing the ladder then left to another disappointing role before deciding to work for myself.
> 
> Now with this lockdown situation I keep flitting with the idea of going back to that nice reliable desk job (admittedly mostly at home) to get myself a few bob to spend on more tools...
> 
> In my opinion the big issue with apprenticeships now is that they're thought of as a second choice for those who can't get the grades to go to university. This has left us with a generation of trades people who (in my experience) on the whole have little interest in excelling in their trade or taking real pride in their work.
> This issue is compounded by the general attitude today that faster and cheaper is always the way to go so long as it's better than _the bare minimum._


Blimey mate you were on a millionaire's apprenticeship at £7.5K, i was on 1K at the end of mine!! No insult intended there it's just a matter time passing. 72 now and feeling old, going to cheer myself up and go out on the bike.
Keeps the stories coming they are great.


----------



## Droogs

AES said:


> OK, it can well be that I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I haven't lived in UK or been there (apart from short business or personal trips) for almost 40 years now. Sorry if I've created a red herring.
> 
> But what I THINK I do know (not 100% sure) is that the RAF don't run the sort of apprenticeship that I went through in the '60s. (No doubt someone will shout if I've got that wrong too please).


AES The RAF still have appos. Avionics LTechAR , apprenticeships are still done at RAF Cosford, this year the DCTT Defence College of Technical Training got an "Outstanding" from OffStEd. link for stuff here:








RAF Cosford | Royal Air Force


See more from the Royal Air Force




www.raf.mod.uk





Unfortunately they still have PTIs there too


----------



## Robin Whitfield

hawkeyefxr said:


> Blimey mate you were on a millionaire's apprenticeship at £7.5K, i was on 1K at the end of mine!! No insult intended there it's just a matter time passing. 72 now and feeling old, going to cheer myself up and go out on the bike.
> Keeps the stories coming they are great.


From small part time jobs to that money it definitely felt like a lot (until I tried to leave home), but it was still something like 20x less than the average house price at the time!


----------



## AES

hawkeyefxr said:


> That made me laugh.


It did NOT make me laugh mate (I wonder where Cpl Latcham - "Larry the Lamb", Ha, Ha) is now?


----------



## AES

Droogs said:


> AES The RAF still have appos. Avionics LTechAR , apprenticeships are still done at RAF Cosford, this year the DCTT Defence College of Technical Training got an "Outstanding" from OffStEd. link for stuff here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAF Cosford | Royal Air Force
> 
> 
> See more from the Royal Air Force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.raf.mod.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately they still have PTIs there too



OK, thanks Droogs, I didn't know that (see my comment above re PTIs & DIs above).


----------



## Distinterior

After the 1st year in the Apprentice Training School, the 12 of us were sent out to work in various departments within the factory.

At 17 years old, one of my jobs was working assembling Electro-mechanical modules that were to be fitted into some of the machines that the company made.
My Charge Hand/Manager at the time was a real stickler for rules etc....
One day he instructed me to cut down some small M3 Metric bolts. The stores had run out of the correct length (25mm long) and only had 40mm in stock. As the Modules needed to be completed ASAP, he told me to hacksaw 150 of these down to 25mm and then file the ends [email protected]@***!!!

Now,...I knew one of my fellow apprentices had a pair of bolt/thread croppers that were likely to fit the M3 threaded bolts. He worked in the Fitters section of the factory which was just below where I worked. I left my work station, popped downstairs and asked my mate if I could borrow the correct tool for the job.
Climbing back up the stairs...., bolt croppers in hand,....as I rounded the corner, there stands my Charge Hand with a face like thunder.....
He asked me where I had been and I explained it would be far quicker & the finished result would be superior by using the proper tool for the job, so I had borrowed the Croppers from my mate...... He escorted me to his Office and gave me a reprimand .......I got an official warning in a letter from the Company.

His argument was,....I was supposed to do what I was told, not use my initiative..."Its not a democracy here" he said ..."You don't get to vote on whether you do something or not". "You do what I tell you to do and when"...

Different times....


----------



## Robin Whitfield

Distinterior said:


> His argument was,....I was supposed to do what I was told, not use my initiative..."Its not a democracy here" he said ..."You don't get to vote on whether you do something or not". "You do what I tell you to do and when"...
> 
> Different times....


These days it feels like a lot of the time it's initiative that's required, but is sorely missing


----------



## novocaine

Harder to get doesn't really cover it. I was of age when they basically removed 80% of the funding for the scheme, there were very limited places that year. I was informed by guidance councilor knobis maximus that I'd be eligible for 3 places and be up against something like 1500-3000 applications for each place (was also told I'd be in the bottom of the choices because I wasn't very academic and had I considered working at McDonalds, seriously). I found a place on a GNVQ in manufacturing instead then took any menial job I could at engineering places to get myself in to workshops. From that I blagged my way in to uni on a Mech Eng degree and continued to work every job I could to both learn skills and to pay for it. I have no student debt (was the first year they sacked of grants an introduced student loans and fees). I now work in what would be considered a well paid job surrounded by people who have way more letters after their name, yet they come to me when they don't understand how something works. (note, I have a few letters these days  ). 

would I have been better in an apprenticeship, who knows. I'm happy with where I ended up.  It also turns out (as I discovered at university when the ex RAF Rupert (genuinely nice guy, no way I'd have got on the wrong side of him though) come lecturer spotted it) I am Dyslexic. I have a certification and everything.


----------



## hawkeyefxr

I love readinf these stories, they are priceless. I also think we were very very lucky, when you hear whats 'apprenticeships' are like these days they are nothing short of cheap labour and i feel sorry for them.
My own apprenticeship was with smallish company that did sheet metal work and a machine shop where they machined allot casting (they were street light i think as i never went into the section). I did two years in the sheet metal shop, 2 years in the toolroom which was brilliant and 1 year in the drawing office, also brilliant. The drawing office has stayed with me to the present day where i do my own drawings for wood projects i make.

Keep the stories coming.


----------



## akirk

I think that apprenticeships now can vary hugely - someone I knew was looking at the JLR one - you could go in on an apprenticeship scheme for 6 years and come out with a degree in engineering / 6 years experience at one of the top automotive companies in the world, on £36k p/a by the end and 40% discount on their cars while there - sounds pretty good to me (very competitive!) - at the other end I know someone who was an apprentice at a local garage - but very reliable and now becoming an experienced mechanic - may not get the same salary / degree and company car, but still has proved a valuable experience...


----------



## TFrench

I work for the family business in the industrial insulation business. The only colleges that do it as a course are in Glasgow and Darlington. Needless to say, I didn't do it. A few years ago the government decided we all needed to be qualified for our CSCS cards, so they sent a man to watch us work and decide we do actually know what we're doing. I'm now Mr French, NVQ - thank you very much. We've got two young lads who work for us that we're training up as well. Explaining fractions was particularly painful....


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Good indeed to know you have a "Not Very Qualified"


----------



## TFrench

It was a farce - the assessor was so busy blowing his own trumpet he didn't notice I just kept reassembling the same part over and over.... 

I left school after 3 months of 6th form because I couldn't see the point in carrying on when I was going to go to work for Dad anyway, so yes I am practically unqualified.  It's not holding me back though!


----------



## Noho12C

bowmaster said:


> I'm in a similar position (although older than you judging from your image) I am a C&G 236 (parts I and II) qualified electrician and have never completed an apprenticeship. I never got into this line of work until I was 24 (by which time apprenticeships were pretty much non-existent) I've spent most of my time as a sparks working on commercial/industrial installations. I spent 5yrs at university studying computer science and then spent 5 years in IT and now I can't even bring myself to write a single line of code. I am now teaching myself to make furniture and carve wood. I don't have a mortgage and I have a 9m x 5m workshop at the bottom of my garden and I spend most waking hours in there 'doing stuff' (that's what I tell my wife) and I just love it. It seems to me that the only options to upskill in the furniture making arena is to sign up for a course with the well established furniture makers i.e David Savage, Marc Fish, David Charlesworth, Peter Sefton et-al - they all run various courses over different durations. They are however, expensive (around £18k for a year plus accommodation and travel). It's not an apprenticeship per-se, but you do get a certificate. These people are highly thought of in their field and I think having studied under their tutelage carries a lot of weight when applying for positions within the industry.
> 
> I, like you am not interested in domestic/construction carpentry and would dearly love to join an organisation, but I'm 60 next year and I think my ship has sailed ( I would swap it all for a career making furniture in a heartbeat). So I'll just keep teaching myself, watching loads of Youtube stuff and ask questions - you never know - there might be some lunatic out there who needs an older worker still willing to work hard and learn new skills.
> 
> Good Luck with your quest
> Dno (www.andonart.com)



Great work with the stained glass projects ! do you make the stained glass yourself ? And what about the furniture coming with it ? The snowdrop lamp and the frame mirror look very good (though the picture doesnt do it justice !). I dont think you really need an internship !
Really like the door panels too !


----------



## Mark Karacsonyi

I got my CofG in the mid 90’s after serving 12 years in the Royal Marines.

Suppose it helps when your father is a joiner and you spent too many hours in the shop as a kid.


----------



## jim1950

Started my apprenticeship in Carpentry and Joining Aug 1965, left school at 14 with reading and spelling problems, the school was not interested but I was very good at all the practical lessons and in-fact came first that year in woodwork, metalwork, technical drawing, art, and was on 3 sports teams also first at R.E. ? (still not sure why).
The greatest thing was starting Brixton school of building to be told we don't care if you can spell or not, we don't care if you can spell Lintel or not but we do care that you know what it is and the correct way to use it, 5years later left with City and Guilds ordinary level and advanced level both passed with credits.
So I think an apprenticeship is a great thing and companies should have never been let bring in E.U. tradesmen before training our our kids.


----------



## Doug71

I learnt my trade (joinery) working in the family business, I went to college one day a week as I wanted a qualification but found it a real waste of time and money. 

I was constantly keeping the tutor right on stuff, he had obviously never done much joinery, I remember one particular time when we had to make a mini staircase, he was getting the geometry of it all wrong and I was practically running the class 

Thing was most of the kids there never actually did any proper joinery, they just worked in some type of factory, for example just fitting doors on Portakabins all day and had no interest in learning more, for them it was just a day off work.

Going back years I think trade apprenticeships were 5 years before you were considered qualified to do the job.


----------



## jim1950

Doug71 said:


> I learnt my trade (joinery) working in the family business, I went to college one day a week as I wanted a qualification but found it a real waste of time and money.
> 
> I was constantly keeping the tutor right on stuff, he had obviously never done much joinery, I remember one particular time when we had to make a mini staircase, he was getting the geometry of it all wrong and I was practically running the class
> 
> Thing was most of the kids there never actually did any proper joinery, they just worked in some type of factory, for example just fitting doors on Portakabins all day and had no interest in learning more, for them it was just a day off work.
> 
> Going back years I think trade apprenticeships were 5 years before you were considered qualified to do the job.


Yes it was 5 years but under pressure for uk gov. was cut to 4 in about 1964/5 but better firms make you do a year probation before signing so back to 5 years. Kids in our year group had factory type joinery jobs and yes had no interest.


----------

