# Blowtorch



## skronk (31 May 2015)

Hi all,

Know nothing about metalwork, but I want to twist and bend some Irwin clamps. About 10 of them, so no big job. Can someone point me toward a cost effective way to do this as I know zilch about blowtorches, and paying £40 plus to do such a small job is not cost effective.

Would one of the small camping gas type torches heat the metal enough to bend it. Big saving in cost !!

I don't plumb or anything like that so when the job is done the torch will sit in garage......rotting !

Thanks.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 May 2015)

It's probably more economic to pay someone else to do them. Even if you spend £n on a torch, you'll probably need to buy a hose and a gas bottle.


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## skronk (31 May 2015)

phil.p":2ozzqnsj said:


> It's probably more economic to pay someone else to do them. Even if you spend £n on a torch, you'll probably need to buy a hose and a gas bottle.



The old boy who did the first for me used a* hand held* torch thing. The sort of thing you buy a refill bottle for. Not a hose or large tank. Unfortunately, he will take no payment under any circumstances so I want to buy a torch of my own !!


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## Phil Pascoe (31 May 2015)

I was imagining larger clamps. Ask the guy. Find out what he drinks. (Isle of Skye, might not be difficult  ) Job done.


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## skronk (31 May 2015)

I know.

Still want to buy a small one of my own.


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## blackrodd (31 May 2015)

I would be careful with the blow torch items Wickes sell, the last one i bought to do a job was sodding useless, difficult to light and when needing to warm or heat stuff on the bench, thing went haywire, like a ww2 flamethrower, really dangerous. Had the devils own job to get a refund!
Get a primus, or camping gaz from homebase or similar, My son uses a little Gaz torch sized sometimes when mechanicing, how hot are we talking here? They should get you cherry red on the small bars with the camping gaz, primus size.
I suggest you make a point and mention the dangerous and "mad flaring" that some do and ask about the chance of a refund in the likely hood of this. Regards Rodders


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## dickm (31 May 2015)

Not knowing the size of the clamps, it's surprising if a normal Gaz torch (the sort that sits on top of the cylinder) gives enough heat to get to red. I'f you are going to try, certainly get a proper one, but also make yourself a hearth out of firebricks, to keep the heat together. Doing it in free air seems to me unlikely to succeed.


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## skronk (31 May 2015)

dickm":kke8wic2 said:


> Not knowing the size of the clamps, it's surprising if a normal Gaz torch (the sort that sits on top of the cylinder) gives enough heat to get to red. I'f you are going to try, certainly get a proper one, but also make yourself a hearth out of firebricks, to keep the heat together. Doing it in free air seems to me unlikely to succeed.



The old boy worked free hand. The clamps are only 300mm in length and the bar about 10-12mm thick.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 May 2015)

He was probably using mapp gas. You won't do that in a cheap torch, iirc.


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## skronk (31 May 2015)

He lives a few miles away. I will take a drive over and ask him.


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## xy mosian (31 May 2015)

As far as I know Camping Gaz is Butane, Primus is Propane. Propane burns hotter. When I changed the reduction in the leaks in my plumbing was fantastic.
I re-straightened a Woden G-cramp a number of years ago with a very firm vice an a sturdy, heavy, bench and a long lever.
xy


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## MMUK (31 May 2015)

It's likely if he uses MAPP gas then his torch will be a Rothenberger as used by plumbers. You will probably baulk at the price of those though, probably more than double what you quoted above. Cheap torches can't use MAPP gas, it burns too hot.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 May 2015)

I looked at the price of repair kits for one of mine - it's only the ignition that's gone. :shock: It can stay gone. I did get lucky though - I bought the miniature Rothenberger torch with 3/4 cylinder of mapp gas for a fiver at a car boot.


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## xy mosian (31 May 2015)

MMUK":1240jt76 said:


> It's likely if he uses MAPP gas then his torch will be a Rothenberger as used by plumbers. You will probably baulk at the price of those though, probably more than double what you quoted above. Cheap torches can't use MAPP gas, it burns too hot.



Spot on, I hope I never really cannot do without one, for the price you know.
xy


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## Eric The Viking (3 Jun 2015)

+1 for Rothenberger. 

I started off with a Primus/Sievert hand held refillable (they were the first to sell cyclone burners). I bought the cylinder, which Primus now won't believe. It's propane. It's good, but the refill price is stupid now, and the valve has always been a PITA to adjust properly (the liquid trap has never worked - invert the thing and it's a flamethrower).

I borrowed a friend's Rothenberger and was hooked - easy to use, really controllable, and refills are a lot less hassle (Toolstation carry the refills. Most of the local plumbers merchants no longer carry Primus refills - you have to trek down to their depot, which is miles out of my way). 

Don't buy a knock-off copy of the Rothenberger torch though. The genuine one is worth it. I bought a cheapie, and it leaked, and was hard to control, and eventually the piezo igniter failed. I now have a very secondhand Rothenberger, that looks horrid but will probably long outlast me. 

The Rothenberger takes both MAPP and Propane cylinders. MAPP is very fierce, which personally I like, but having propane handy is good in case you need more subtlety. For bending steel, go MAPP. I use mine to harden and temper chisels too (both MAPP and propane together).

My only regret is that I have a range of nozzles for the Primus for different jobs, such as paint stripping and small soldering jobs, as well as the cyclone burner, which is outstanding still, 30 years on. I haven't found the same for Rothenberger torches. I've got this one (below). The MAPP gas is yellow, Propane is red. Toolstation don't (or didn't) sell the gas online - it's in the printed catalogue or you can just ask at the counter. I'm not sure if they'll send it as I've never tried to order it that way.





[Edit: Just noticed: That's a Primus/Sievert cylinder on the right - doesn't fit Rothenberger, but it's not my picture!]


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## Doug B (3 Jun 2015)

Ive used a couple of these for over 20 years.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/prod ... tube-valve

That price doesn't include the bottle but they aren't expensive, my local plumbers merchant is cheaper for the torch so might be worth trying your local merchant.


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## Eric The Viking (3 Jun 2015)

Doug B":3qgbbqgk said:


> Ive used a couple of these for over 20 years.
> 
> https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/prod ... tube-valve
> 
> That price doesn't include the bottle but they aren't expensive, my local plumbers merchant is cheaper for the torch so might be worth trying your local merchant.



That's the one I have (that turns into a flamethrower). 

Also the picture is a bit misleading although the text makes it clear - that's for just the valve and tube - no cylinder nor actual burner.

Although I usually use a Rothenburger now with MAPP gas, you really can't beat the cyclone burner for the Sievert ones. I don't think they sell the burner I have any more - you can get cyclones as complete heads (valve+tube, igniter and burner) or as add-ons for the hand torches (that use hoses), but not for the 87-series. The cyclone has let me make 15mm joints less than 1" from wallpaper without burning it. It's phenomenally efficient heating anything the flame can wrap around.

The Rothenburger has a similar idea - they call it 'swirl flame' instead - but it's not as good IMHO.

E.


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## Doug B (3 Jun 2015)

Eric The Viking":2fcb63n6 said:


> That's the one I have (that turns into a flamethrower).



Yep had that a few times usually means the nozzle needs cleaning out or replacing.



Eric The Viking":2fcb63n6 said:


> Also the picture is a bit misleading although the text makes it clear - that's for just the valve and tube - no cylinder nor actual burner.



I did state that in what I wrote



Eric The Viking":2fcb63n6 said:


> Although I usually use a Rothenburger now with MAPP gas, you really can't beat the cyclone burner for the Sievert ones. I don't think they sell the burner I have any more - you can get cyclones as complete heads (valve+tube, igniter and burner) or as add-ons for the hand torches (that use hoses), but not for the 87-series. The cyclone has let me make 15mm joints less than 1" from wallpaper without burning it. It's phenomenally efficient heating anything the flame can wrap around.
> 
> The Rothenburger has a similar idea - they call it 'swirl flame' instead - but it's not as good IMHO.
> 
> E.



The tool reps on the breakfast mornings regularly tried to flog these when they first came out, whilst I admit the push button ignition is handy I've never had a problem with the type of propane torch I linked to even when soldering close to decoration.


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## woodpig (3 Jun 2015)

This is interesting.

http://youtu.be/OV0KOxQP8gk

As he says, MAPP gas is three times the price but as his test shows doesn't burn that much hotter than Propane. 

They stopped making MAPP gas years ago, no idea how good the substitutes are.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAPP_gas


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## Doug B (4 Jun 2015)

woodpig":1l0dt8ih said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> http://youtu.be/OV0KOxQP8gk
> 
> As he says, MAPP gas is three times the price but as his test shows doesn't burn that much hotter than Propane.



Doesn't surprise me, from time to time I work for a couple of gas fitter mates they both have the MAPP type gas with the newer self igniting torches & while more convenient they've never impressed me that much much that I thought I'd have to buy one.


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## Eric The Viking (4 Jun 2015)

Doug B":20jsby6b said:


> Eric The Viking":20jsby6b said:
> 
> 
> > That's the one I have (that turns into a flamethrower).
> ...


I assume you mean the burner itself. It's true that all of mine have taken a bit of stick down the years, but I thought the liquid trap is in the valve part - all the burners do it, including the paintstripper (fan) one, which hardly ever gets used as it's way too fierce for fine work. 

I agree that otherwise it's the better tool. It's easier to control than the Rothenberger for small things, but if I could find alternative nozzles for the latter that might be different. I just keep a cigarette lighter in my back pocket to light the Sievert, only for the flint really as it doesn't need a flame.


> Eric The Viking":20jsby6b said:
> 
> 
> > Also the picture is a bit misleading although the text makes it clear - that's for just the valve and tube - no cylinder nor actual burner.
> ...


Yes, I didn't think it was you - Machine Mart being a bit awkward, as, although the Sieverts are good, they're more expensive than they probably should be when you add everything up.

E.


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## Eric The Viking (4 Jun 2015)

Doug B":2knhmp5a said:


> woodpig":2knhmp5a said:
> 
> 
> > This is interesting.
> ...


It is different for soldering temperatures, which are about 1/5th of what he was getting in the video. MAPP seems to be a lot quicker. Personally, I usually find that very helpful, but I have friends who hate it, and only use propane in a Bernz/Rothenberger torch.

I appreciate the guy in the video was trying to be fair, but he should really have started at the same temp, and timed how long each gas took to get to its maximum temp. I bet the MAPP was a lot faster to reach the max temp of the propane.

The MAPP flame is a lot hotter, but running a mini furnace on one burner, the limiting factor will be the flow rate and the burner size. For low temp work, eg. Tin lead soldering, there is usually ample flow, so the heat transfer rate difference is significant.

To use an analogy, you can't paint-strip a cast iron fireplace with a propane blowlamp, not because of the flame temp, but because the power of the blowlamp is too little to overcome the huge heatsink effect of the cast iron.


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## woodpig (4 Jun 2015)

MAPP gas torches are pretty much only plumbers tools, having said that a mate of mine uses a 3.9 kg Propane cylinder with a Sievert torch and hose as it's far cheaper and you can use whatever size burner you need for the job.

I only use those disposable gas bottles for filling my Airsoft guns these days!


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Jun 2015)

I believe I paid about £9 for my last propane and about £12 for the MAPP - it's not 3X more. I found MAPP good for when I was at the extent of the capabilities of the torch - not often. For jewellery and small stuff it could cause problems because of its being too hot. I find that the cylinders leak when disconnected, so I put a drop of water on the valve to test that it's closed properly. (although that's not often as I have four Rothenberger torches  )


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## Sheffield Tony (4 Jun 2015)

I have a cheap, ordinary propane/butane torch, and a Rothenberger with MAPP. The latter will get 10-12mm section steel to red heat in order to bend it - just. The cheapo one won't. In order to harden plane / travisher blades, I sometimes need one in each hand ...


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## woodpig (4 Jun 2015)

I use a 6kg cylinder as my "portable" setup. Paid about £16 for my last refill so it's about ten times cheaper than the throw always. Luckily there's always some monkey that throw various size cylinders away so I've never even paid for one, just the refill.


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## Eric The Viking (4 Jun 2015)

Sheffield Tony":1d037pps said:


> I have a cheap, ordinary propane/butane torch, and a Rothenberger with MAPP. The latter will get 10-12mm section steel to red heat in order to bend it - just. The cheapo one won't. In order to harden plane / travisher blades, I sometimes need one in each hand ...



Same here. 

I find a retort stand (school chemistry lab style) is really useful to hold at least one blowlamp. With the MAPP one and the cyclone on the Sievert together I managed to harden and temper my 1/2" mortice chisel, and I have heated and bent rebar with them too. You have to "crossfire" though, as I found the air draft from one going flat out interfered with the other - they would put each other out if they came in from the same side.

I've tempered chisels with just the cyclone burner in the past, but that's a bit easier.


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## woodpig (16 Jun 2015)

Surrounding whatever you're trying to heat up with refractive fire bricks makes a huge difference.


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## woodfarmer (16 Jun 2015)

I have a little camping gaz one i bought to do some plumbing. It was fine for heating EN316 bar 12mm thick for bending to make a luggage rack for my bike.


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