# Saw stop



## lurker (21 Aug 2018)

Rather than continue the hijack on another post, maybe we could discuss the merits of this device here.
Personally I am inclined to agree with Jacob, that it's a solution looking for a problem.


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## Peter Sefton (21 Aug 2018)

We shouldn't need Sawstop but people do keep losing fingers.

We shouldn't need airbags but people keep crashing, anything that makes our life saver needs consideration.

Only my opinion.

Cheers

Peter


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## lurker (21 Aug 2018)

"IF" people are still losing fingers on table saws, IMHO its down to: 
1. Inadequate supervision in a business environment.
2. lack of personal disciple in a hobby environment .

We have blade guards, riving knifes and push sticks to keep our hands well away from the danger area. A simple cost/ benefit analysis shows those three are available at little or no cost but are hugely beneficial, to the point that you must be quite mad not to use them.

The Saw Stop might have a place in "the land of the free" as they seem to have a pathological disregard to blade guards, but I can't see it will happen here.
Certainly not in a commercial environment as there would be far too much technical validation and subsequent pre-use checking , required by the PUWER regulation, for it to be an acceptable risk control.


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## lurker (21 Aug 2018)

While we are talking about push sticks, anyone care to post photos of the one they use.
Mine are copies of ones I saw Steve Maskery using.


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## loftyhermes (21 Aug 2018)

This is mine, it's a lot redder in real life.


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## large red (21 Aug 2018)

Of course we all should be disciplined enough to never need Saw stop, but guess what about 2 weeks ago or maybe it was 2 months ago I took the guard and riving knife off my table saw to cut some half laps. I am yet to put them back on. Yes I use it nearly every day and yes I know this is bad and I should replace them before I use it but the fact is I haven't. If they launched Saw stop in the UK today I would order one tomorrow.


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## MikeG. (21 Aug 2018)

Losing, people....losing. People lose their fingers. Loose fingers would be an interesting party trick.


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## lurker (21 Aug 2018)

MikeG.":36d0bhv4 said:


> Losing, people....losing. People lose their fingers. Loose fingers would be an interesting party trick.



Happy now?


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## lurker (21 Aug 2018)

large red":emu639wo said:


> Of course we all should be disciplined enough to never need Saw stop, but guess what about 2 weeks ago or maybe it was 2 months ago I took the guard and riving knife off my table saw to cut some half laps. I am yet to put them back on. Yes I use it nearly every day and yes I know this is bad and I should replace them before I use it but the fact is I haven't. If they launched Saw stop in the UK today I would order one tomorrow.



Don't imagine I am as saintly in my actions as in my words; I can see myself doing the same as you to a lesser extent.  
You might like to have a look at this should you need to remove the Guard & RN 
tablesaw-rebate-fence-t110884.html


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## Sgian Dubh (21 Aug 2018)

lurker":smggoycq said:


> Rather than continue the hijack on another post, maybe we could discuss the merits of this device here.
> Personally I am inclined to agree with Jacob, that it's a solution looking for a problem.


I first came across SawStop when I lived and worked in Texas nearly twenty years ago. I think the statement you made above needs a qualification as follows: *"it's a solution looking for a problem" … if it's for use primarily outside North America*.

It has to be remembered that North American woodworkers (and perhaps a limited number in other countries or continents) tend use table saws very differently to, for example, woodworkers in the UK and Europe in general. Essentially, North Americans tend to use their saws for not only ripping and cross-cutting solid wood and board materials, but as a substitute for other machinery, e.g., the spindle moulder and router that are designed to do various tasks usually better and more safely. They also tend to use a long rip fence for most tasks and remove the guards, i.e., the splitter and/or the riving knife and the crown guard, and rarely use the common or garden bird's mouth style pushsticks we here in the UK are familiar with. If they do use devices to keep their fingers away from the spinning blade they tend to be rather convoluted and marginally effective in set up, e.g., featherboards to hold wood down to the table and tight to the fence, and shoe style pushsticks that cause the user to pass their hand over the top of the exposed spinning blade. 

What made me wince when I lived in the US was watching some (not all) North American woodworkers doing things I'd never dream of. For example, I frequently witnessed users ripping solid wood into something like 2" wide strips with the saw set up with a full length rip fence, blade at maximum height, no riving knife/ splitter or crown guard, and no push stick of any kind: for the last 6" or 8" of every rip they'd zip the wood past the blade by hooking the fingers of their right hand over the rip fence and use their thumb to push the board. Other strange activities I noted were things like cross cutting narrow panels or boards to length using the full length rip fence as a length stop (good for causing kickback which I witnessed along with injuries in three or four cases), and creating cove type mouldings by passing wood at an angle across the teeth of the sawblade. I saw no end of tenons cut by simply setting up the rip fence to the right distance and passing a piece of wood perhaps 3" wide by 7/8" thick end down over the raised blade - more safety minded woodworkers might make or buy a tenoning jig to either fit over the rip fence or run in the table's grooves. And, for the moment, let's forget dado blades as an issue, which is an operation that can be undertaken safely if set up properly.

My experience of working with North American woodworkers over roughly ten years led me to the conclusion that some of them, admittedly a very small minority, were so cavalier, gung-ho and dismissive of potential safety issues that they do really need someone to take responsibility for their safety out of their hands. However, those woodworkers who are of that mindset are probably those most likely to dismiss SawStop as a sop only fit for pussies and other weaklings unable to outmuscle a stupid machine.

I do think SawStop probably has a very useful role to play in many of the circumstances outlined above, but if you don't use a bench/ table saw that way its usefulness in reducing things like amputations are much diminished, although still likely to be able to offer an extra layer of safety. In other words, use a bench saw, table saw, sliding table saw, etc in the way we tend to use those machines here in the UK, assuming we follow generally agreed safe practices as outlined by, for example, the HSE, and this in itself reduces the chance of injuries both small and large. Slainte.


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## Jacob (21 Aug 2018)

It's intended to work to protect absolutely brainless beginners who have had no instructions, or absolutely incompetent idiots who can't work out or understand the simplest safety measures.

The sawstop can itself be switched on and off I believe. 
Could these twerps be relied upon to switch it on? I doubt it.

Could they depend on it being installed on all the machines they use? If not they need to learn some simple safety measures . Then they wouldn't need the sawstop!

The basic pushstick is the best IMHO. Good to use the same pattern all the time so you get used to it. Essential to have two accessible all the time. Good to make copies from ply.


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## large red (21 Aug 2018)

Accidents happen to even the best of us. We have crown guards you could argue that there is no need of the IF your carefull and experienced but the fact of the matter is we all get distracted, we all make mistakes. I honestly hope that some if our more "superor" posters never have to eat a rather painful humble pie!

Apart from the safety advantages the Saw stop (now owned by Festool) looks like a fantastically engineered machine much better than any of the Chinese re badged tat that we get over here.


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## Tasky (21 Aug 2018)

I saw the thread title and thought it was about raised battens on workbenches for crosscutting against! :lol: 



lurker":r8cphhex said:


> Personally I am inclined to agree with Jacob, that it's a solution looking for a problem.


I agree... if not a solution that even causes _more _problems!
Airbags, crumple zones, auto-braking, collision avoidance computers, even automatic gearboxes... The more junk like this that cars get, the lazier drivers become and the more chances they take. 
The same mentality is prevalent throughout human life, not just on the road. 

Do these SawStop things cut in during a kickback too, or just when a finger touches them?


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## Inspector (21 Aug 2018)

Jacob re the bypass switch. The saw's brake is always on unless the key is turned and held for a few moments until the status lights stop flashing. Then you can make your cuts until the saw is turned off. You have to go through the procedure again when you want to re-start for another cut. 

It is intended for materials that may setoff the brake like very wet, green or pressure treated wood. To know if the material will set off the brake you need only touch it to the blade before turning the saw on. If the lights flash you don't cut the wood or make the decision to use the bypass mode. 

Every time you power up the saw for a work session the braking system goes through a self diagnostic and if everything is functioning properly it will let you work. If there is something wrong the status lights will keep flashing a pattern that informs you as to what the problem is and the saw won't run, even in bypass mode, until the issue is resolved.

You could go to the SawStop site and read the manual if you really want learn and understand it. 
https://www.sawstop.ca/support/manuals/ ... binet-saw/

As you can surmise I have one and got it about 10 years ago. At that time I had been using table saws for about 3 decades as a hobbyist. I bought it because my wife wanted to do some woodwork and I didn't want to take a chance of her having an accident when I wasn't around. There is no discount for manicures of less than ten fingers. I learned from my Danish trained father that learned his craft there in the 30's and 40's when there were no guarding on most every machine and from reading a lot of good books. It is a very well made saw and because it is so easy to switch between the riving knife and the splitter/blade guard as needed they always get used.

You don't have to buy one and I really hope when you die of very old age you have all you fingers. I will use the SawStop not because I depend on the brake to protect myself from my own ignorance or arrogance but because it is extra insurance. We drive our cars and have the option of getting minimal insurance or adding on extra coverage. I'm happy with the extra protection the tool offers and I hope to annoy the nurses by picking my nose in my old age. :wink:


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## Inspector (21 Aug 2018)

Tasky the brake only activates when your finger touches the spinning blade. That means in a kickback it won't activate unless you are dragged into the blade. Naturally because of the speed you will have more of a cut but it will never be as bad as if your hand was dragged through in the same event without the brake. If you didn't have the guard on and the anti-kickback pawls weren't there to stop the kickback you'd take it in the gut just like an un-braked saw. But that would never happen because like any well trained woodworker you follow the rules of safety and stand out of the line of fire. :wink:


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## lurker (21 Aug 2018)

Well a "pro" from someone whose opinion I (over the years) have found credible.

how does the thing "see" your finger before its too late?
Why doesn't the "brake" unscrew the blade nut?


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## custard (21 Aug 2018)

Every few months Saw Stop gets raised all over again, maybe one of these threads should just be picked at random and made into a sticky?

sawstop-coming-to-europe-t106283.html

sawstop-news-update-t107060.html

sawstop-uk-imports-t60692.html

ok-how-does-ths-trigger-meat-cutting-saw-stop-t104150.html

Still, I'm not sure we've ever had a post from someone who's actually used the machine, which is a shame because leaving aside the safety aspects it does look superbly built. I think someone once made the point that for the safety device to operate the trunnions in particular would need to be particularly well engineered. 

That's an interesting point in the context of table saws, one of the common failings with many saws is the trunnions are misaligned and very difficult to adjust. If the saw blade is fully raised and a workpiece of the maximum capacity fed through you'd hope, even with a cheaper saw, that neither side of the cut shows any scorching. But tilt the blade over to 45 degrees, repeat the exercise, and you'll often find quite a bit of scorching on one side because the blade is misaligned when tilted.


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## Inspector (21 Aug 2018)

The brake basically detects the change between what it is cutting and your flesh. That sets off the brake. Much like touching the leads on a conductivity meter make it beep/move the needle. So it doesn't "see" your finger it "feels" it. You will get anything from a small scratch to a big cut depending how you touch the blade. Feed slowly and you barely get a scratch. Slap the blade and you'll need stitches but there will be less damage than without a brake. 

When the brake hits the blade there isn't enough inertia in the nut to spin itself off or even loosen. Even if it did the teeth are so far imbedded in the brake that the blade will be held by it. 

Pete


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## Inspector (21 Aug 2018)

custard":ygfzeuor said:


> Still, I'm not sure we've ever had a post from someone who's actually used the machine, which is a shame because leaving aside the safety aspects it does look superbly built.....



I guess I don't count eh. :roll: 

Pete


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## custard (21 Aug 2018)

Didn't spot that. Good to have at least one qualified person in the discussion.


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## Trevanion (21 Aug 2018)

Whilst I like the idea of a saw stop I think it would be better if it was an optional extra/retrofit for other machines and not just their own machine. I'd reckon they'd shift a lot more units if it was an extra you could get on say, Felder or Panhans machines.

The only real use for their machine I could see for one would be placed in an educational environment such as your colleges and schools (Although I don't think many schools even have table saws anymore).


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## Raymond UK (21 Aug 2018)

I have just watched a few Youtube videos on the Sawtop system. It looks impressive but it seems to do the same with wet (conductive) timber. Could be an expensive practise.

I think Jacob hit the nail on the head. If you're not competent enough to use a table saw without chopping off your fingers, don't use one.

What's next, router table stop or circulate saw stop? :roll:


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## Shrubby (21 Aug 2018)

It,s a solution for Americans and the hobby fraternity that look in that direction. Someone mentioned a retrofit for panel saws in European education - I read of one being developed by IFA Stuttgart and a consortium of large manufacturers - it attached to the Suva guard and used near infra red sensors - well away from the saw stop patents 
Matt


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## Ttrees (21 Aug 2018)

If you're not a long term experienced or trained person using the tablesaw,
you should know absolutely everything about the sawstop.
That is a red flag in my book, for anyone who has not being trained, you don't have enough knowledge for safe use!
You could easily watch over 3 hours of the better safety videos online, and that's the good videos, not the likes of the really dangerous ones whom I won't mention, 
You can spend twice that much time reading threads on this forum, which is a requirement for anyone who cares.
Those who don't read them have no excuse not to read'em.
These things take no prisoners, look at everything you can find, otherwise you are ignorant.
Accidents can happen, just look at Steve's post and read the other horror stories from really experienced users.
I don't want to make light of this as its not only the blade that can amputate you.
Keep watching and reading everything you can, you can't have too much information.
I saw a real horror show just last week, some know whom I'm on about 
Its a real good example of what is about to happen if you fight with a machine.
I won't give the link though, as it was obviously intended to stir up folks for ratings.
Real bad news


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## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

Trevanion":25oeyneu said:


> Whilst I like the idea of a saw stop I think it would be better if it was an optional extra/retrofit for other machines and not just their own machine. I'd reckon they'd shift a lot more units if it was an extra you could get on say, Felder or Panhans machines.
> 
> The only real use for their machine I could see for one would be placed in an educational environment such as your colleges and schools (Although I don't think many schools even have table saws anymore).



The mechanism can’t be made as a retrofit because when the brake is triggered the inertia of the blade stopping also drops the trunnion and motor to take the blade below the table. The action is much like running into a clothes line that catches you across the throat. Your feet come out from underneath you and you’re thrown on your back. 

Our woodworking club meets in a local high school and they have replaced 4 or 5 table saws with SawStops.


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## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

Raymond UK":3h3ypr3r said:


> ....It looks impressive but it seems to do the same with wet (conductive) timber. Could be an expensive practise......



If you reread my first post earlier today you’ll see I explained that if you have something you think might trigger the brake you touch it to the blade and it will warn you if it could trigger. Wet wood has to be soaking wet to do that. I seriously doubt anyone here makes their projects from that kind of material. Now if they do and don’t bother checking and use the bypass then they deserve to buy a new brake and blade. They can put the old one on the wall as a reminder not to do it again. (homer)


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## Eric The Viking (22 Aug 2018)

@Inspector:

One thing that struck me when the brand was launched was the build quality of the sawbench itself. It certainly looked to be superb.

Is that true, or am I just optimistic?

I'm in LA in November, so will seek one out (if I have a spare moment), to see for myself.


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## Ttrees (22 Aug 2018)

Rob Cosman gives about the most in depth video that I've come across here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSvoV_DWjAE
I've seen him do some scary things before on the tablesaw, he's not too worried about safety making those dowels! :shock:


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## Droogs (22 Aug 2018)

There is a long history involved with Sawstop and its inventor v the rest of the US table saw industy, which went to litigation and was very accrimonious and is the reason they (Sawstop) actually manufacture machines. I have not used but have seen one in the flesh, a friend in the US has it and the build quality is very high. As good as a Delta/Laguna machine. Bosch developed a similar system for european saws but has had to delay introduction because of legal issues with Sawstop's inventor (not sure of current situation). 

All in all, a very good original idea which helps improve tool safety but does/should not replace training and responsable usage of very dangerous equipment. unfortunately marred by some nasty quarrels about money.

edited for typos


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## Steve Maskery (22 Aug 2018)

I'd have one. But I'd have it for the build quality, not the autostop facility. I've not seen one in the flesh, but the left-tilt blade, the fence and SUVA guard all look excellent to me. The only thing missing is a short fence and that is easy enough to make. Mine doubles as a storage box for the spanners and spare arbor, etc.
BTW, I have both poker-style and US boot-style push sticks and I use them both, sometimes at the same time. They each have advantages over the other.
I also have a push stick for my router table. It's boot-style, with a V-groove its bottom edge. It means I can push along, down and in towards the fence all at the same time.


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## custard (22 Aug 2018)

Steve Maskery":21pyf8ep said:


> I'd have one. But I'd have it for the build quality, not the autostop facility.



+1

I just watched a video review and putting the safety aspect on one side, it's an impressively well built machine. There are loads of little (and not so little) details that would make this a serious contender even if you ignore the autostop.

-massive cast iron table (is there anything bigger?) with quality machining for flatness
-excellent fence
-well thought out insert plate
-tool-less removal of the riving knife. I'd probably use my dado stack more often if I had this
-the blade is fully shrouded below the table. Felder has something similar and it's astonishing how much better the dust extraction is compared to other saws I've used, the table stays sawdust free and there's no need to worry about chips trapped against the fence or cross cut stops throwing your settings out
-left tilting blade
-ribbed drive belts. Cheap Chinese machines use old design and poor quality belts, but even the better machines often still use old design yet decent quality belts. Good belts mean you get no slippage, but you also don't lose a big chunk of horsepower through friction.
-huge cast iron trunnion mounts, that's real evidence of quality. Cheap saws have flimsy and badly aligned trunnions, so even if they cut straight with the blade vertical, they go out of alignment for deep bevel cuts
-metal rather than plastic adjusting wheels, designed to stand up to the hurly burly of real workshop conditions.


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## OscarG (22 Aug 2018)

custard":23rp16zx said:


> -tool-less removal of the riving knife. I'd probably use my dado stack more often if I had this



Sorry to take thread off-topic, I thought dado stacks were illegal here? Do you have an American table saw?


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## Steve Maskery (22 Aug 2018)

Dado stacks are not illegal. This comes up regularly.

What is illegal is using an unguarded blade in a commercial environment, or using a blade which fails to stop within 10 seconds. 

On many saws, the guard is mounted on the riving knife, and to use a dado stack one has to remove the RK, thereby removing the guard as well.

Also a full dado stack is many times the weight of a normal blade, so the inertia extends the stopping time. On my saw, a full stacks still stops in just over 6 seconds.

But it is perfectly possible to guard in other ways. I have, and use, three guards, none of which rely on the RK for support. Each one is designed for different purposes. Lurker's link to my dado fence has the guard built-in.

When I was filming my DVD series, I did a whole section on how to use dado stacks legally and safely, with input from my local HSE office. They were really helpful, so I do know what I am talking about.

The only problem is finding a saw that will take them. Most euro machines come with a short, 30mm arbor. I have an Xcalibur, which can also take a longer, 5/8" arbor, so I can, and do (occasionally) use a dado stack. For many operations it is quicker to rout, because of the setup time, but sometimes it is worth it for the superb quality of cut.

Using a dado stack is not illegal. Even using one at home without a guard is not illegal (home workshops are not covered by H&S legislation), it's just a very silly and unnecessary thing to do.


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## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

Eric mine is the one they sell as the Industrial machine now. When I bought it, it was the only one they sold. It is a very well made machine, easily as good or better than the older US made Unisaws, Powermatics, and Canadian made Generals. I think the same when compared to the other Asian imports in the same class but since moving to the Prairies I don't live in a tool rich environment anymore so can't compare now. By the way the optional hydraulic mobility base is just plain brilliant and I wish they, or someone else would make different sizes for other kinds of machines. At the time and I think for most machines sold here all you got was a basic NVR switch without a big stop button to power on/off the saw. These come with a separate lockout switch and the paddle off button on the main switch. Something tells me your saws would come that way but it wasn't common here. It also had the best manual on any saw I had ever seen. Have a look at them on the link I posted before. I like to step up to the saw and put it to work.

About that Rob Cosman video. You'll see he has a chip limiting blade mounted in the saw. They are not recommended in SawStop machines. The teeth need to bite into the aluminium block to stop and the chip limiters slow that process down so the blade rotates further before stopping. That boils down to it taking more flesh. How much I don't know and don't want to find out. I have a chip limiting dado set that I am going to replace or have a saw sharpener grind them off. I'm waiting to find out how much the grinding will cost and decide if it is more cost effective to get another set.


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## Noel (22 Aug 2018)

Steve Maskery":1uret1uq said:


> Dado stacks are not illegal. This comes up regularly.
> 
> What is illegal is using an unguarded blade in a commercial environment, or using a blade which fails to stop within 10 seconds.
> 
> ...



Similar, 5 odd secs for a 250 mm single blade and a sec more or so for an 8" dado with 3 x 4 wing chippers. Not really a big issue and well within regulations I think.


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## custard (22 Aug 2018)

OscarG":1li89o6s said:


> custard":1li89o6s said:
> 
> 
> > -tool-less removal of the riving knife. I'd probably use my dado stack more often if I had this
> ...



No, I use a Felder. 

Most Felder and Hammer machines are dado stack compatible, and the company sell a range of dado and grooving blades to suit.

Personally I prefer to use either a router or a spindle moulder, but occasionally a dado stack makes sense so I keep one on hand. If I had the tool-less riving knife that Sawstop offers I'd probably find a few extra applications for a dado stack.


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## Tasky (22 Aug 2018)

Inspector":hu3p6a33 said:


> Every time you power up the saw for a work session the braking system goes through a self diagnostic and if everything is functioning properly it will let you work. If there is something wrong the status lights will keep flashing a pattern that informs you as to what the problem is and the saw won't run, even in bypass mode, until the issue is resolved.
> A lot of cars do the same thing... and a friend of mine makes a living from fixing them when the OBD says everything is fine, despite it blatantly not being so. I even lend him a hand in exchange for beer tokens, sometimes.
> 
> 
> ...


It'd never happen because I've used a table saw, thought it was a bloody scary piece of kit and have absolutely no desire to own one myself!!! :shock: 
I'll stick to hand saws and standing outside the building as _my _safety measure!! :lol:


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## ScaredyCat (22 Aug 2018)

This thread reminds me of the endless ABS vs NON-ABS on motorcycles arguments. Personally, I think if there's an extra safety feature then why not have it? As long as it doesn't interfere with you working and being safe then what's the issue? The first thing that's always struck me is how solid the saw stop tables seem to be. The fact that they include this safety feature is a bonus. I don't think anyone that owns one particularly wants to trigger it (unless it's for demonstration purposes) and, if I had one, I'd hope that I never needed to replace the blade and brake. Any safety feature is still a safety feature even if you, personally, never have to use it.


.


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## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

To use a dado set in a SawStop you have more to do than just removing the riving knife. You have to remove the 10" saw blade brake cartridge and replace it with the 8" dado brake cartridge. It is wider to accommodate the stack of blades. You also have to verify the cartridge to blade gap is correct and adjust it to suit the blade you have. When done you have to do the same in reverse. 

Where the quick release clamp for the riving knife shines is switching back and forth between just having the riving knife on the saw and removing it to put the splitter/anti-kickback pawls/ blade guard assembly on and for the rarest occasions when you take both off to raise the blade up through the middle of a board or sheet of plywood to cut a hole out.


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## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

Scaredycat. Not just motorcycle ABS's. Motorcycle and bicycle helmets, car seat belts, airbags, anti-skid, tire pressure warning indicators, ABS brakes, gun laws. Building permits, inspections property usage, height, size and building roof/cladding rules. Any facet of life where someone tell others what they can and can't do. (hammer) So saw blade braking is just a little puppy in a long history of us being protected from ourselves. :roll:


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## Jacob (22 Aug 2018)

Inspector":2norgbvr said:


> Scaredycat. Not just motorcycle ABS's. Motorcycle and bicycle helmets, car seat belts, airbags, anti-skid, tire pressure warning indicators, ABS brakes, gun laws. Building permits, inspections property usage, height, size and building roof/cladding rules. Any facet of life where someone tell others what they can and can't do. (hammer) So saw blade braking is just a little puppy in a long history of us being protected from ourselves. :roll:


It doesn't compare with any of the above because there already exist extremely simple and very cheap measures which will make  your TS and almost every other ww machine you are likely to use for the rest of your life very safe, and safer than sawstop. 
First and foremost is to get the two push stick habit.
Crazy to compare it to gun laws - which in the UK save many thousands of lives, not just fingers, as compared to the USA.
Even crazier to compare it with various car safety measures which also save millions of lives, injuries, etc including third parties.

As a matter of interest, how many times has yours been triggered?


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## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

I was referencing the rabid debates all of them inspired not the effectiveness or cost. I'm sure there were the same grumbling and arguing when your part of the world mandated crown guards, riving knives etc. decades ago by "real" woodworkers that didn't need such things. :wink: 

I have triggered mine 3 times. (homer) (homer) (homer) 

The first was touching the tip of a tape measure to the blade as it was coasting to a stop. It had a couple turns left before stopping. I wanted to reset a stop on the mitre gauge for the next cut and I was impatient. Yes it will trigger with the blade turning and no power. 

Second and third times were due to resetting the mitre gauge to square after making an angled cut. I had the aluminium fence on the mitre gauge adjusted close to the blade for the angled cuts and I forgot to reset it away when returning it to square. The Osborne mitre gauge does that where a standard doesn't. 

So three dumb mistakes due to inattention from being very tired the first time, inattention and lack of familiarity with that mitre gauge the second and yup a slow learner the third. I wear those screw ups, don't hide from them and learned. I have extra brakes and haven't needed them since. :wink: 

I use push sticks whenever any cut is small or narrow enough to take a finger in anyway to the blade. The guard is always on unless making a non-thru cut and in those instances the riving knife is on and I watch where the blade will exit before cutting.


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## Jacob (22 Aug 2018)

Is it easy to re-set after triggering it and/or do you have to buy stuff? Doesn't it damage blades?
Do you have it on all your machines (spindle, planer etc)? (Push sticks work on all of them).


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## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

You need to buy a new brake and a blade. If you trigger the brake with flesh you send the triggered brake back to SawStop for analysis of the computer chip and they send you a free one. Brakes are $93Can for a saw blade brake and $123Can for a dado brake. The first blade I tripped was a Forrest and because it was barely ticking over I sent it back to the manufacturer and they inspected it, replaced 3 teeth and resharpened it. Saved half the blade cost that way. The others were full speed stops and the blades were wrecked and I tossed them. They take maybe 5 or so minutes to replace and adjust the gap. 

There are no other machines with blade brakes available but years ago SawStop had a video of a bandsaw they were developing that would stop the blade if it was touched. Don't know what became of it. Maybe Festool will apply the technology to mitersaws et cetera. There is no way as I said in an earlier post to retrofit a braking system to a machine that wasn't designed for it. Maybe someday.

I use push sticks on the jointer (planer) and if needed on the router table or bandsaw. As much as I would love a shaper I don't have one. The Williams and Hussey planer/moulder takes care of most of those needs.


----------



## Noel (22 Aug 2018)

Need a new brake cartridge every time it's activated. Blade damaged too. 
FAQ: https://www.sawstop.com/support/FAQs

If the ANSI (US H & S) regulate that all/most saws have to have a similar safety system (ironic, see later on) it'll certainly make things interesting from a patent POV. Thought the Bosch Reaxx, a job site saw, (Sawstop sued for patent infringement and won, Bosch withdrew it from the N American market) was a different and better idea in that the blade was lowered by an arm and there was no blade damage. 
When Sawstop was first brought to market the company lobbied DC and tried to make it mandatory that all table saws were equipped with it's technology. Didn't happen.


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## Nick Laguna UK (22 Aug 2018)

Noel":32bxtexa said:


> Thought the Bosch Reaxx, a job site saw, (Sawstop sued for patent infringement and won, Bosch withdrew it from the N American market) was a different and better idea in that the blade was lowered by an arm and there was no blade damage.


Hi Noel, 
agreed, it seemed a better system - Bosch showed it at Koln in 2016 - I was down at Bosch HQ early last year and asked about it - let's just say they didn't really want to discuss that subject


----------



## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

Bosch did loose their lawsuit but only in the US. They still sell it here in Canada. It is $300Can+ more than the equivalent SawStop and I believe a slightly slower reaction time to get the blade out of the way. 

Ironically they rejected the SawStop inventors system like all the other saw makers and only created one for their saws because they were sued by a migrant/immigrant worker that lost fingers when he was cutting flooring without guards or a fence on a job. I don't think he was covered by any kind of workmans compensation. If I remember correctly he was awarded a million or more. After that came the legislation to have finger saving technology on all table saws sold in the future. The inventor lobbied for legislation only after being rejected after approaching the manufacturers to use his technology. He was unsuccessful with making them mandatory and then created his own company, SawStop, to make and sell them. The new legislation happened after Bosch got sued by the worker.


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## Jacob (22 Aug 2018)

Noel":2jhwr82i said:


> .......
> When Sawstop was first brought to market the company lobbied DC and tried to make it mandatory that all table saws were equipped with it's technology. Didn't happen.


Something tells me that they hope to try the same here!
There's loadsamoney to be made from gadgets as we all know, but if safety is the issue then the gadget sellers should be kept at arms length (no pun intended - but a push stick does just that!). Particularly on this issue where better, simpler and much cheaper safety measures are readily available.
n.b. Sounds bloody expensive to run if you can just trigger it accidentally when just fiddling about quite safely. It would obviously get switched off if this happened too many times (e.g. twice).
PS I couldn't find push sticks on Peter Sefton's tool site. There are several varieties of "gripper" however, but these are far less effective and hugely more expensive.


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## Inspector (22 Aug 2018)

For the record. The Bosch cartridges are $129Can each.

For my 3 triggers the cost including blades has been about $500Can over the ten years I've had it. So $50Can a year. I know guys that drink that in beer in less than a month.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Aug 2018)

I know guys who drink that in a night.


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## Jacob (22 Aug 2018)

Inspector":1klog0mo said:


> For the record. The Bosch cartridges are $129Can each.
> 
> For my 3 triggers the cost including blades has been about $500Can over the ten years I've had it. So $50Can a year. I know guys that drink that in beer in less than a month.


A couple of push sticks cost about £5 and will last for many years. If you make copies they need cost nothing.


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## ScaredyCat (23 Aug 2018)

Jacob":3mxt36b9 said:


> and* safer than sawstop*.



Nope, you'll need to justify that statement.



.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Aug 2018)

Jacob thinks Sawstop is pointless, ergo it is. Q.E.D.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2018)

ScaredyCat":1j3rlk36 said:


> Jacob":1j3rlk36 said:
> 
> 
> > and* safer than sawstop*.
> ...


According to a post or two above you can get a nasty cut with the saw stop in some circumstances.
You can't with push sticks - if anything goes wrong it's the push sticks which gets the nasty cut.

Sawstop will only work, if its switched on and in good order, on the sawstop machine itself.
The push stick habit will work on virtually all machines, until you get to the bigger ones where power feed becomes essential.

Sawstop can be activated accidentally by contact with wet material or metal. It's expensive and time consuming to re-set. This is a massive disincentive to using it and to leaving it switched it off instead.
Push sticks can't be switched off and it's very easy to make them readily available for all the machines you have, at very little cost.


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## Deadeye (23 Aug 2018)

> According to a post or two above you can get a nasty cut with the saw stop in some circumstances.



Well, it takes almost a full revolution of the blade to stop - say 32 teeth going through your finger. So yes, I'd say nasty cut inevitable but less likely to remove the digit entirely.
Agree that keeping hands well away as an ingrained habit is sesnsible.


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## ScaredyCat (23 Aug 2018)

Jacob":19w8epjg said:


> According to a post or two above you can get a nasty cut with the saw stop in some circumstances.
> You can't with push sticks - if anything goes wrong it's the push sticks which gets the nasty cut.



Sawstop will only work, if its switched on and in good order, on the sawstop machine itself.
The push stick habit will work on virtually all machines, until you get to the bigger ones where power feed becomes essential.

Sawstop can be activated accidentally by contact with wet material or metal. It's expensive and time consuming to re-set. This is a massive disincentive to using it and to leaving it switched it off instead.
Push sticks can't be switched off and it's very easy to make them readily available for all the machines you have, at very little cost.[/quote]


It doesn't have to be an either or decision though does it, or is sawstop triggered by the presence of push sticks? (dry ones, obviously - who uses wet push sticks?).


.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2018)

ScaredyCat":1axy7ir8 said:


> ....
> It doesn't have to be an either or decision though does it, or is sawstop triggered by the presence of push sticks? (dry ones, obviously - who uses wet push sticks?).
> 
> 
> .


No it's a value for money decision. How many nasty cuts would sawstop prevent - zero apparently, according to the above, though it would limit their severity. As a safety measure this is not very impressive!
Ditto push sticks: 100% - no cuts at all.
To be realistic - the biggest hazard for me personally is a still spinning blade after switch off, when the brake needed adjusting. Sawstop obviously would be a stupid remedy for this (leaving the blade spinning until touched) as compared to the usual brake mechanism which stops it as soon as possible.
So yes maybe there is scope for improved brake mechanisms, but sawstop obviously not it.


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## johnnyb (23 Aug 2018)

Just to add I've had an American saw albeit with a riving knife for many many years and I brought it used. (dw746). It's been a superb workhorse really versatile. It's always felt safe to me. I've worked on plenty short fence machines that we're very unsafe to say the least. As an American saw the build is beautiful as is the durability. In all the years of use only had to replace 2 capacitors which were available from a motor rewinders.the saw is definite mid range to not high end like the saw stop. 
PS I also prefer slipper pushsticks I find they take that vibration away from ripping smaller pieces


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## Steve Maskery (23 Aug 2018)

Johnny, in what way did you feel that the short fence machines were unsafe?


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## OscarG (23 Aug 2018)

I'm all for pushsticks, always use two when cutting.

How does a pushstick save you when using a crosscut sled though?

I tried to make my sled as safe as possible, toggle clamps to hold the workpiece, both my hands are always at edge of sled when pushing. I'm still staring at an exposed blade though. If something freakish was to happen there's nothing to stop it cutting flesh. In that scenario Sawstop could make a life changing difference.


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## Steve Maskery (23 Aug 2018)

OscarG":11o49rog said:


> I'm still staring at an exposed blade though.



I'm not, when I use mine, it has a built-in guard.


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## OscarG (23 Aug 2018)

Steve Maskery":3ca384g3 said:


> OscarG":3ca384g3 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still staring at an exposed blade though.
> ...



Do you have a picture of that Steve? Maybe I can mod mine.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2018)

I use a sliding table with a fence - which is much the same as a crosscut sledge. I use it with the fence behind the workpiece which may seem counter intuitive. 
I hold the workpiece up to it with my left hand (well away from the blade) and my right hand with a push stick pushing the workpiece up to the fence, as close to the blade as I want, quite safely. No need for toggles or any other holding mech, though I might add a hold down for anything a bit complicated like a long mitre cut which could go off line if not well held.
One push stick but no part of my anatomy any nearer than say 10" from the blade, at any point.
Offcuts flicked away with the push stick.


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## johnnyb (23 Aug 2018)

Mostly unbraked machines with massive blunt blades dodgy switching etc. The fence on it's own was innocuous it's just everything else. The fence on my dw746 can be drawn back I guess. But I'm used to adding a few thou splay when I'm setting it up( once every four years) 
If I was sawing rough and badly dried planks it may be an advantage on a saw that only rips this rough stuff. But on most table saws it kills the versatility. 
One aspect of american sawing I've never adopted is the crosscut sled. My saw comes with a big sliding table which I use for panels and a mitre gauge for smaller bits.
I've still got the 52inch fence rails but I've never had the space to use them. So this is a side table and fence rail that allows a 52inch rip ie 8×4 in half. Is this safe? Is it something thats seen outside of the usa. A big Euro panel saw uses the sliding table for that job giving an edge at 90 to the side.


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## ScaredyCat (23 Aug 2018)

Jacob":3p8c57wg said:


> No it's a value for money decision. How many nasty cuts would sawstop prevent - zero apparently, according to the above, though it would limit their severity. As a safety measure this is not very impressive!
> Ditto push sticks: 100% - no cuts at all.



How many air bags would be deployed if people paid attention whilst driving? None. People make mistakes, sawstop may well help when you make that mistake. Just because you think it's wasted money, doesn't mean it's the case. The stopping time is related to the speed of the blade, say it's spinning at 4k rpm, it'd stop in around 1/3 of a revolution, and it's retracted too. 

as a side note, I'll use this quote* from Rob Cosman sawstop review .. 



> I'm a disabled vet. I've had major surgery on my right shoulder 7 times. Sometimes my nerves and muscle don't do what I tell them to do. I've tripped my saw 3 times in 5 years. Every time i have, not only was I left with a very minor scratch, but Sawstop replaced my break for free.




* It's on the Internet, it must be true 


.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2018)

ScaredyCat":2az7pl0u said:


> Jacob":2az7pl0u said:
> 
> 
> > No it's a value for money decision. How many nasty cuts would sawstop prevent - zero apparently, according to the above, though it would limit their severity. As a safety measure this is not very impressive!
> ...


Not so. Road accidents are caused by many other factors than just you yourself not paying attention. Unlike using a table saw, though I suppose it's possible that someone might goose you while you are at it!


> .........
> as a side note, I'll use this quote* from Rob Cosman sawstop review ..
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds distinctly like a sales pitch to me!


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## johnnyb (23 Aug 2018)

Solely from an engineering perspective sawstop is a remarkable thing. When the explosion goes off and fires the alloy into the teeth wow the blade is wobbling like jelly. 
I have no issues with it really. Now they need to work on one for every type of machine. 
I do know the saws will be top notch though.
I'm surprised there bothering with Europe though. Now there owned by festool perhaps changes are happening.


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## OscarG (23 Aug 2018)

johnnyb":2zlw0pmy said:


> Solely from an engineering perspective sawstop is a remarkable thing. When the explosion goes off and fires the alloy into the teeth wow the blade is wobbling like jelly.
> I have no issues with it really. Now they need to work on one for every type of machine.
> I do know the saws will be top notch though.
> I'm surprised there bothering with Europe though. Now there owned by festool perhaps changes are happening.



Agree. The speed with which it reacts and the g-forces involved are incredible. I love the slo-mo vids of it being activated. I'm still uncomfortable watching the bloke put his finger into the blade  I know he kind of cheats, introducing his finger, real real slow.

I'd get one for sure if they release them in the UK.


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## Noel (23 Aug 2018)

OscarG":1l1tqggg said:


> I'm all for pushsticks, always use two when cutting.
> 
> How does a pushstick save you when using a crosscut sled though?
> 
> I tried to make my sled as safe as possible, toggle clamps to hold the workpiece, both my hands are always at edge of sled when pushing. I'm still staring at an exposed blade though. If something freakish was to happen there's nothing to stop it cutting flesh. In that scenario Sawstop could make a life changing difference.



Oscar, if you're so concerned (as you rightly should be) you really should have a guard of some description on your sled. Not hard to do.

Edit- I'll get a picture shortly for you.


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## ScaredyCat (23 Aug 2018)

OscarG":35uz4nl0 said:


> Steve Maskery":35uz4nl0 said:
> 
> 
> > OscarG":35uz4nl0 said:
> ...



Have a look at William Ng on youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbG-n--LFgQ ) at ~ 33 mins in..

.


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## Noel (23 Aug 2018)

Here you go Oscar. Try and use a polycarbonate like Lexan, Macrolon etc rather than an acrylic like Perspex. Polycarbonate is tougher, will not shatter like acrylic although it is prone to scratching. You can go further and cover the whole sled (may limit stock size) or have a box type arrangement that moves up and down but what I have I'm happy with:







Hmm, needs a bit of freshening up.....getting a bit battered. But it's served me well for last 15 yrs or so.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2018)

This is my basic cross cutting set up - but lots of variations possible.
It's a sliding table but if it was a sledge I'd do it the same way with the workpiece pushed up to the fence and held with left hand and push stick in the right i.e. much simpler than most of the sledge set ups you see.
I can also hold down with a cam device as shown in 3rd pic, but could do similar with a sledge if necessary, cams, toggles, G clamps etc.
Safe to flip offcuts out of the way with the push stick. Would be safe even without the crown guard but I'd leave it on be default, unless it was in the way e.g. doing housings over the top of the blade without riving knife


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## OscarG (23 Aug 2018)

ScaredyCat":hjffc5hn said:


> Have a look at William Ng on youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbG-n--LFgQ ) at ~ 33 mins in..
> 
> .



Thank you, but I've seen that vid. I copied his "5 cut" method (think everyone on YouTube has!), liked his overall design and tried to copy it but realised it doesn't leave a method for clamping the workpiece. When he cuts (can't see it in that vid) he holds the workpiece with his hands, that was something I wanted to avoid.

Here's what I have, it's not finished, since this pic was taken I added a safety box in the back like Mr Ng.





allows me to cut little pieces like this, without my hands anywhere near the blade, if I had a perspex guard it would get in the way.





the downside is blade is exposed, not sure how I can have both clamps and a perspex guard? :?


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## Steve Maskery (23 Aug 2018)

I'll get my camera out.


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## Noel (23 Aug 2018)

Oscar, read my post, don't use Perspex. Safety.

And not the best design of sled, metal in front of the blade not a good idea and the clamps, do you need so many? If any?


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## OscarG (23 Aug 2018)

Noel":wb6s6dt9 said:


> Oscar, read my post, don't use Perspex. Safety.



Noted. Will use polycarbonate if I go down that route.



Noel":wb6s6dt9 said:


> And not the best design of sled, metal in front of the blade not a good idea and the clamps, do you need so many? If any?



When you mean metal in front of blade, you mean the toggle clamp?

Well, I've seen vids with people holding workpieces with their hands, didn't like that. Seen vids where when cutting small pieces they used the rubber end of a pencil to hold the workpiece.... especially didn't like that! I figured 3 were handy, the right one prob only used to hold right side workpiece with dado type stuff (haven't tried it yet). 

I kind of wanted something where I could quickly clamp it all down and be totally hands free except for pushing the sled at the extreme edges.

I tried to take elements from this fella's sled > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtwK9X8o1Gw

Maybe a removable polycarb' guard is way to go.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2018)

They all look so complicated. What's wrong with just a base, a fence (adjustable or not), a pushstick, plus one or two hold-downs/ hold-ins cams etc . Thats what I was trying to show with my pics of sliding table. A sled is just a DIY sliding table.
What makes it easy is pushing the workpiece up to the fence instead of the other way around, which was a tip I got from the manual with my machine.


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## D_W (23 Aug 2018)

MikeG.":2i1bik4y said:


> Losing, people....losing. People lose their fingers. Loose fingers would be an interesting party trick.



Loose the hounds....and your fingers!!

Sounds like a war move or something.


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## D_W (23 Aug 2018)

In regard to the first post, it's interesting in the US that you can get your pants sued off as a table saw manufacture, and our safety is generally behind europe. 

But you can walk into a store here, buy a 395xp husky and call yourself a handy man and start cutting trees with a full chisel chain without any training. That is a death waiting to happen. 

The sawstops here are a boon for beginners and shops where people work long hours, as well as schools. But there's little woodwork done with table saws like that in any shops these days. Maybe on job sites here and there, but schools and beginners (and perhaps some shared spaces). 

If I had any of those three, I'd consider it, but like jacob, I use push sticks (I tend to work by hand without using the TS, but if I'm in a rush) and just like a preflight, I always think about the stuff that can nail you when I'm using the saw. I have to admit that I don't particularly enjoy using 5 horsepower saws with no guards or splitters. I got an early taste of that by absorbing the kickback from one on a wide panel - luckily wide enough that when it twisted and came back at me, my hands were far enough from the blade that they didn't get pulled in.


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## OscarG (23 Aug 2018)

While we're talking about safety, one thing that's always puzzled me. 

You're advised to stand out of the line of fire so if a board does kickback it doesn't hit you. 

How are are you supposed to push a board forwards and against the fence _without _standing behind the saw?!


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## Inspector (23 Aug 2018)

Jacob claims that people are going to switch off the brake when they use it because......

To use the saw in bypass mode require the use of BOTH hands. One to turn on the bypass key and hold it for a few seconds and the second hand to pull the paddle switch out to turn on the saw. So if you are a normal woodworker you will be turning off the saw frequently throughout the session, sometimes every cut. That will grow old very fast and you'll trot off to get another saw. Now if you are the one woodworker :roll: that turns on the lights, switches on the dust collector and then the table saw, planer, jointer, sanders, bandsaw etc., and leaves them all running until you go home.....well it isn't the machine for you either.

SawStop strongly advocates the use of all the safety equipment for the saw, in and out feed support if needed, PPE, push sticks, established safety practices, et cetera. There is nowhere that they even hint that the brake replaces anything in the preceding sentence. 

This thread has gone the way of virtually every SawStop thread I've ever seen so I'll leave it to you guys.

Enjoy your shop time and be safe.
Pete

Almost forgot. Oscar most kickbacks occur from between the fence and the blade. So I't is best to stand to one side of the blade, usually the left if you are right handed and the fence is to the right of the blade.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2018)

Inspector":3fjxfuee said:


> Jacob claims that people are going to switch off the brake when they use it because......
> 
> To use the saw in bypass mode require the use of BOTH hands. One to turn on the bypass key and hold it for a few seconds and the second hand to pull the paddle switch out to turn on the saw. .........


Shouldn't be a problem to bypass. :roll: Seriously - you'd have to if you kept losing saw blades for no good reason. The Bosch alternative sounds infinitely more sensible.


> This thread has gone the way of virtually every SawStop thread I've ever seen so I'll leave it to you guys.
> .....


Yes it has. (Yawn)
Do you have a commercial interest Pete? I get the firm impression that Sawstop are getting up a marketing campaign.


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## Inspector (23 Aug 2018)

No commercial interest.


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## custard (23 Aug 2018)

Inspector":3k0kuxz3 said:


> Oscar most kickbacks occur from between the fence and the blade. So I't is best to stand to one side of the blade, usually the left if you are right handed and the fence is to the right of the blade.



That's certainly the _best_ place to stand, but there's no where in the workshop that's 100% guaranteed to be out of the firing line. 

Some while ago Peter Sefton posted about a professional sawyer who was doing a repeat cross cutting operation, with small off-cuts building up on the table next to the blade. One was picked up by the blade, carried right over the blade to his side in the "safe zone", and struck him in the hand with such force he lost a finger. 

The post stuck in my mind because that was exactly what I regularly did, and I've seen that same working practise repeated hundreds of times in different workshops. I guess it underlines that no matter how often you've gotten away with something there's always that freak occurrence where it can catch you out.


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## Steve Maskery (23 Aug 2018)

Here is my cross-cut sled. I can't show it in operation as the runners no longer fit my mitre slots.







The tunnel guard sits on top of the workpiece retained in two pairs of grooves in the front and rear rails. It's not much use if I want to cut a board standing up on its edge though.

I've never used it since getting a SCMS, so I haven't had much incentive to rebuild it, but if I were to do so I would try to address that issue.

I have another, which I can't find at the mo, which is more like Jacobs, push the workpiece against the fence rather than the fence against the workpiece, and that uses the normal saw guard. It has some merits, but the workpiece is more prone to spelching that way.


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## OscarG (24 Aug 2018)

Steve Maskery":3g5bgdbr said:


> Here is my cross-cut sled. I can't show it in operation as the runners no longer fit my mitre slots.
> 
> 
> 
> The tunnel guard sits on top of the workpiece retained in two pairs of grooves in the front and rear rails. It's not much use if I want to cut a board standing up on its edge though.



Ah so it just drops in? That's clever might see if I can adapt mine like that. Like the way you can quickly remove it if needed. I suppose as well as covering the blade it helps stop any offcuts being launched at you!

Thanks for sharing!


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## OscarG (24 Aug 2018)

custard":3ngqgdci said:


> Some while ago Peter Sefton posted about a professional sawyer who was doing a repeat cross cutting operation, with small off-cuts building up on the table next to the blade. One was picked up by the blade, carried right over the blade to his side in the "safe zone", and struck him in the hand with such force he lost a finger.



Holy s*** that's unlucky.

So to be clear, it was one of the previous offcuts that got launched at him not the last one he cut?


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## ScaredyCat (24 Aug 2018)

Steve Maskery":2w3fxpw5 said:


> Here is my cross-cut sled.



What's the hole for? 


.


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## OscarG (24 Aug 2018)

Hanging it on the wall I'm guessing.


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## ScaredyCat (24 Aug 2018)

Jacob":1l7h00kb said:


> Do you have a commercial interest Pete? I get the firm impression that Sawstop are getting up a marketing campaign.



That's pretty weak Jacob. Suprised you didn't just shout "Fake News"



OscarG":1l7h00kb said:


> Hanging it on the wall I'm guessing.



hahah yes, seems obvious now... (hammer) 
.


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## Steve Maskery (24 Aug 2018)

It is hanging on the wall in that photo, I turned in round so that you see it as it would look on the saw 
The guard doesn't just stop bits flying up, it stops me sticking my fingers in there, too.


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2018)

ScaredyCat":2a6bf8rk said:


> Jacob":2a6bf8rk said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a commercial interest Pete? I get the firm impression that Sawstop are getting up a marketing campaign.
> ...


Why? It was fair comment I thought. 
There seemed to be a sudden outburst of enthusiasm for what is in the end just another expensive but largely useless gadget. You have to be very sceptical of the gadget salesmen!


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## OscarG (24 Aug 2018)

Jacob":21i0zf04 said:


> Why? It was fair comment I thought.



Because it looked like you were questioning his integrity perhaps? 

Unlike most of us (possibly all of us) Inspector has one of these saws, so he's in a great position to comment on them. If he likes his machine, doesn't mean he's a Sawstop salesman! 

I love my DeWalt 7491, I've sung its praises many times on here, however I'm not (if you excuse the pun) getting a kickback from DeWalt.



Jacob":21i0zf04 said:


> There seemed to be a sudden outburst of enthusiasm for what is in the end just another expensive but largely useless gadget. You have to be very sceptical of the gadget salesmen!



Not really, every now and then Sawstop comes up in conversation, wasn't even Inspector who started the thread.

You might think it's useless, others who've been saved from having body parts cut off might disagree.


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2018)

OscarG":1i6f8az4 said:


> ........
> 
> You might think it's useless, others who've been saved from having body parts cut off might disagree.


Actually nobody has come forward to say that sawstop has saved a body part during a particular incident. Has anybody ever had real reason to be grateful to sawstop - bearing in mind, thankfully, that losing fingers is a very rare occurrence in the first place? 
Push sticks will save body parts AND nasty cuts (which sawstop won't - not what you'd expect from a very expensive safety gadget).


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## OscarG (24 Aug 2018)

Jacob":1fg06f2k said:


> Actually nobody has come forward to say that sawstop has saved a body part during a particular incident. Has anybody ever had real reason to be grateful to sawstop - bearing in mind, thankfully, that losing fingers is a very rare occurrence in the first place?



Not on this thread no, but there is a gallery of "finger saves" on Sawstop's site. Scroll down on this page >
https://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop/testimonials

Tiny cuts, bit of nail gone etc. Looking at those pics it's easy to see how without Sawstop they'd be some very nasty injuries and possible missing digits on some those chaps.

If my memory is right they used to have a deal where if your saw activated and saved you, if you uploaded a pic and shared your story they'd send you a new brake cartridge for free. Don't know if they still do that.



Jacob":1fg06f2k said:


> Push sticks will save body parts AND nasty cuts (which sawstop won't - not what you'd expect from a very expensive safety gadget).



I don't see Sawstop as a license to be abandon standard safety measure. No reason you can't use 2 pushsticks, riving knife, crown guard, a healthy amount of fear/respect for the machine _and_ Sawstop as an extra layer of protection. Apart from the initial dent in the wallet, where's the downside?

I'd love to have one.


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## Noel (24 Aug 2018)

OscarG":19kw0daw said:


> Noel":19kw0daw said:
> 
> 
> > Oscar, read my post, don't use Perspex. Safety.
> ...



Is the middle toggle clamp on the blade line? Not good, especially with the steel base. I was actually referring to the alu T track. Won't do too much damage to most blades but personally I keep any type of metal as far away as possible from the blade.
But if you're happy, no worries.


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## Tasky (24 Aug 2018)

Jacob":eni4no2b said:


> Push sticks will save body parts AND nasty cuts (which sawstop won't - not what you'd expect from a very expensive safety gadget).


To be totally fair - Seat belts and airbags will often save your life, but that doesn't always mean you walk away without any scratches, abrasions, contusions and other (comparatively) minor injuries... 
And in just my short time on this forum, I've watched/heard of people accidentally slipping with push sticks, pads and the like.


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## transatlantic (24 Aug 2018)

I use the long push sticks like this :






Where when you finish the cut, your hand is still infront of the blade. What I don't understand is why people use ones like this :






Your hand is just as close as if you were not using pushing sticks as you have to pass your hand passed the blade. I can see how they make pushing the material through easier, but certainly no safer. I shudder when I see people using them where their fingers are a few inches from the blade


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## OscarG (24 Aug 2018)

Noel":1mjhsvfk said:


> Is the middle toggle clamp on the blade line? Not good, especially with the steel base.



Well all 3 clamps can move wherever they're needed. The one in pic is close (as that workpiece is small) but still to the side of the kerf line, I'd never place it on the blade line.



Noel":1mjhsvfk said:


> I was actually referring to the alu T track. Won't do too much damage to most blades but personally I keep any type of metal as far away as possible from the blade.
> But if you're happy, no worries.



My sled doesn't really allow for very deep cuts. I didn't feel I had enough wood on there to raise the saw to it's max height, I'm well within that, so the max stock I can cut is about 35mm which is probably enough for me. If I ever need more, I'll build another sled.

It's not easy to see from the image but even if had the blade set to cut my max of 35mm, that t-track would have loads of clearance.


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## acewoodturner (24 Aug 2018)

What are the replacement costs if the sawstop is triggered (apart from a new blade) and how long is the time to deliver the parts. I take it the bits have to come from Canada/US?

Mike


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## Steve Maskery (24 Aug 2018)

transatlantic":61mzwtcm said:


> Where when you finish the cut, your hand is still in front of the blade. What I don't understand is why people use ones like this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's because those particular ones are a poor example of that kind of push stick. It has the great advantage of pressing the workpiece down, especially useful if bevelling. But that PS should be longer and have a bird's mouth cut into the front end for those last few inches.


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2018)

Tasky":35kpyoat said:


> .....I've watched/heard of people accidentally slipping with push sticks, pads and the like.


Yes but the whole point of the push stick is that if you do get it wrong you are still a long way from the blade. My push sticks get bits nibbled off the ends regularly but my fingers stay in one piece.
Not so with grippers and push pads - they put you too near the blade and make you over reach. Not good.


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2018)

Steve Maskery":2ssgfoup said:


> ...... push stick. It has the great advantage of pressing the workpiece down, especially useful if bevelling. ....


You can press down (and in) very firmly with the conventional push stick. Once you get the habit they really give a high degree of control - and a longer safer reach.


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## Steve Maskery (24 Aug 2018)

Sigh.
Jacob. They only give a longer reach if they are longer. If the boot one is the same length, it has the same reach, at the end of the cut, where it matters most.
Your system works well for you, and I'm not saying that there is anything at all wrong with it, there isn't. But I have both and value the benefits of each, depending on the circumstances.


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2018)

Steve Maskery":1rw24jvm said:


> Sigh.
> Jacob. They only give a longer reach if they are longer. If the boot one is the same length, it has the same reach, at the end of the cut, where it matters most.
> Your system works well for you, and I'm not saying that there is anything at all wrong with it, there isn't. But I have both and value the benefits of each, depending on the circumstances.


The boot design has the mouth under the hand which puts your hand close to or over the workpiece - and what's worse - over the TS (planer etc) blades as they are uncovered at the end of a cut. 
The conventional design has the mouth at the end which puts your hand about 10" from the workpiece and about 10 " from the blades at the end of the cut.


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## custard (24 Aug 2018)

I've heard of some nasty accidents with push sticks, the problem is that when you start to push the workpiece through saw blade you hold the push stick higher up at an angle of say 45 degrees, but as the workpiece gets further away there's a tendency to lower your hand to extend your reach. Because attention is focussed on where the push stick connects to the workpiece, there have been nasty cases where the operator has dipped the push stick lower and then fed his own hand into the blade.

Another thing to be careful with is pushing too hard on a push stick, as cutters and blades become blunt it's easy to shove harder rather than stop and replace the blade. If the push stick slips (probably more accurate to say _when_ the push stick slips) you can find yourself in trouble.

There's no such thing as 100% risk free woodworking. All you can do is be aware of the dangers, take sensible precautions, and stay alert.


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## Inspector (24 Aug 2018)

acewoodturner":2rtrwuwo said:


> What are the replacement costs if the sawstop is triggered (apart from a new blade) and how long is the time to deliver the parts. I take it the bits have to come from Canada/US?
> 
> Mike



In post 1237817 I gave the cost of the blade brakes. If the brake goes off by a body part touching the blade you mail it to SawStop so they can analyze the event and they mail you back a free one. If there is a SawStop presence in Britain they will have the brakes if you need them. As far as I know they are not sold in Europe.


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2018)

custard":20unqwaq said:


> I've heard of some nasty accidents with push sticks, the problem is that when you start to push the workpiece through saw blade you hold the push stick higher up at an angle of say 45 degrees, but as the workpiece gets further away there's a tendency to lower your hand to extend your reach. Because attention is focussed on where the push stick connects to the workpiece, there have been nasty cases where the operator has dipped the push stick lower and then fed his own hand into the blade.


Seems extremely unlikely to me. Your hand is 6 to 10" away from the blades when you have finished a cut - why would you not notice this and still keep pushing? Those short grippers could be a hazard though as they put your hand over the blade at the end of a cut.


> Another thing to be careful with is pushing too hard on a push stick, as cutters and blades become blunt it's easy to shove harder rather than stop and replace the blade. If the push stick slips (probably more accurate to say _when_ the push stick slips) you can find yourself in trouble.


Nope. The whole point is that you yourself don't get in to trouble but the push stick does and may lose a little and need trimming or replacing, rather than your fingers


> There's no such thing as 100% risk free woodworking. All you can do is be aware of the dangers, take sensible precautions, and stay alert.


Agree.


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## LancsRick (24 Aug 2018)

Clearly some strong opinions in here so I'll try to throw in a different perspective...

Good technique, push sticks, being aware are all aimed at preventing an accident. Prevention is always great, but we're human, and if anybody ever tells me that they've never made a safety mistake in the workshop I'm going to assume they've either not spent much time in one or they're lying. It might be once in a blue moon for the sensible woodworker,but it happens.

Saw stop is never going to stop you having an accident. What it will do though is hopefully make the result of any accident less severe. It's not a replacement for prevention, it's a last resort to mitigate the severity.

Just my view for what it's worth.


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## D_W (24 Aug 2018)

Inspector":35s0975f said:


> acewoodturner":35s0975f said:
> 
> 
> > What are the replacement costs if the sawstop is triggered (apart from a new blade) and how long is the time to deliver the parts. I take it the bits have to come from Canada/US?
> ...



Add the cost of the blade. I wonder how many people actually wait for a free brake. 

There was some griping on the US boards about triggering SS devices with embedded metal and water, but I've never used an SS, and can only mention it. 

There's a strange provision for dados, too, isn't there?

I mentioned earlier I'd have one if I had students, kids or a public space. otherwise, they're not really for me, but even more in principle is the founder and his attempt to try to line his pocket by getting laws written for his benefit. That is a topic that gets hot in a second on a lot of US boards, and those boards tilt heavily toward no conflict (because less conflict is better for advertisers) of any type, so the topics disappear instantly. 

I'd still have one for a public work area, though. You just never know who is going to do something stupid, and if they do, they may drag you around in court in the US even if they have no chance of winning. They can bring a pointless suit and still cost you a lot of money in the interim.

My kids will not use a table saw as long as they are under my roof. Their mother is a nutball, and my son (now 5) responded to me telling him to stay away from a CBN wheel by running over when I turned my back and rubbing the back of his hand against it. It peeled the skin right off. Their mother coaches them that life can be perfectly safe, so they're not suitable for anything that doesn't have second chances. If I told them not to touch a SS, they'd trigger it within a week just to see what I was talking about.


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## Steve Maskery (24 Aug 2018)

These are my current PSs.






The top one is for the Router Table. It has a V-groove along the bottom. The heel needs replacing.

The other two are for the TS and BS. They both give me good reach, have comfortable handles (the straight one is traced from my favourite kitchen knife).

When I remake the boot one - and I shall - I will make it a wee bit less high (it currently rubs against my guard boom arm) and I'll make the bird's mouth a bit less steep.

I wouldn't be without any of them, they enable me to count to ten without taking my socks off.


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## JohnPW (25 Aug 2018)

> I don't see Sawstop as a license to be abandon standard safety measure. No reason you can't use 2 pushsticks, riving knife, crown guard, a healthy amount of fear/respect for the machine and Sawstop as an extra layer of protection. Apart from the initial dent in the wallet, where's the downside?



But lots of people, (in the US if going by what you see in Youtube videos), never used any safety measures, (ie riving knife, blade guard,keeping hands away from blade etc), to start with.

And Sawstop will let them continue to use a table saw like that, why would they start to use any safety measures? Safety measures are for sissies, right?


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## Sgian Dubh (25 Aug 2018)

JohnPW":20uo1ap5 said:


> > But lots of people, (in the US if going by what you see in Youtube videos), never used any safety measures, (ie riving knife, blade guard,keeping hands away from blade etc), to start with.
> >
> > And Sawstop will let them continue to use a table saw like that, why would they start to use any safety measures? Safety measures are for sissies, right?


Ha, ha. Your contribution, along with quite a few others, over the last seven pages seem to pretty much reiterate my contribution way back on the first page. It's interesting and rather funny how sometimes a thread meanders and dances all around a subject only to end up with little or nothing said that wasn't already known. Slainte.


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2018)

JohnPW":ensxb74y said:


> > I don't see Sawstop as a license to be abandon standard safety measure. No reason you can't use 2 pushsticks, riving knife, crown guard, a healthy amount of fear/respect for the machine and Sawstop as an extra layer of protection. Apart from the initial dent in the wallet, where's the downside?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's like riding a bike without bothering to learn about brakes, instead a gadget automatically pokes a stick between the spokes when an emergency stop is needed - if you are lucky, it's working, not been switched off etc


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## ScaredyCat (27 Aug 2018)

Steve Maskery":2xq5cd8z said:


> These are my current PSs.



I see you like to do most of your cutting from Belgium...


 


.


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## Steve Maskery (28 Aug 2018)

?


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## Inspector (28 Aug 2018)

Steve he is kidding you about the length of your push sticks. Or do you just have a tiny tiny saw? 

Pete


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## Steve Maskery (28 Aug 2018)

Ah, I see.  It's not the size of your saw that matters, it's what you do with it.
To comply with HSE recommendations, PSs should be 400mm long (EDIT - 450mm now, thanks Peter), and mine are (I shall go and check!).

Edit again: Phew, turns out they are 465mm 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf


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## Ttrees (28 Aug 2018)

Another thing that I should have known!  
I should really read and thoroughly understand the HSE and PUWER , and what other organisations have you, advice. 
Most aren't the most novice friendly read, or presented in a more thoroughly understandable easy to read from a novices perspective manner unfortunately 
That should be a regulation in itself if they really cared. :x 

Thanks Steve  
We can never know too much about this !
Tom


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## Jacob (28 Aug 2018)

Sometimes the regs are ambiguous and should be seen as guides rather than being prescriptive. Easily misread - where they don't _recommend_ something per se it shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as deprecation.
The two (standard design) push stick method gives higher level of safety than what the regs appear to recommend.
I haven't got them in front of me but I seem to recall that they recommend grippers and push blocks at some point. IMHO this is bad advice.
Steve's various interesting variegated push sticks are all very well, but I think the default should be the well known standard pattern (below) as it is very effective. Keeping to one design increases familiarity, safety and versatility.


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## Trevanion (1 Feb 2019)

Has anybody seen the new Festool-Sawstop collaboration?

[youtube]6DWVdcmRD44[/youtube]


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## Inspector (1 Feb 2019)

The parent company of Festool bought SawStop last year so it was inevitable there would be new products. Maybe they will put the technology on mitre saws down the road. 

Pete


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## AJB Temple (2 Feb 2019)

I think it's a good idea. I would buy it.


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## shed9 (2 Feb 2019)

At last, technology that will finally prevent all those needless woodwork based hotdog accidents.


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## Jacob (2 Feb 2019)

I'd buy one except two push sticks does it better and cheaper (saving your fingers that is, not nicking sausages skin deep.)


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## Trevanion (2 Feb 2019)

It would be interesting to know which band tends to hurt themselves more with a table saw, is it the site carpenters, or workshop joiners, or is it the hobby woodworker?


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## shed9 (2 Feb 2019)

Trevanion":2m2oe1mn said:


> It would be interesting to know which band tends to hurt themselves more with a table saw, is it the site carpenters, or workshop joiners, or is it the hobby woodworker?



I would have thought statistically it would be hobby workers who make up the numbers but how many 'per capita' is not something I would expect to likely be captured.


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## AJB Temple (2 Feb 2019)

Jacob is sort of right but my view is that I use all the guards and push sticks, but distractions can happen so why not have the additional safety?


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## Jacob (2 Feb 2019)

AJB Temple":t5jvfznw said:


> Jacob is sort of right but my view is that I use all the guards and push sticks, but distractions can happen so why not have the additional safety?


Because its effin expensive, you need it for every machine, it's mechanical so can fail, it can be switched on/off so it's not silly person proof. 
But mainly because with a bit of practice you get into the push stick habit and your fingers never go near the blade (or spindle). It becomes second nature.
Push sticks also give you better control of the workpiece - mainly extended reach, and/or risk free pressure close to the cutter.
You can do things safely with push sticks which you wouldn't even attempt with hands alone. e.g. short pieces; if it goes wrong you may wreck the workpiece or the push stick but your fingers stay well out of the way at all times.
It was somebody on here who put me on to the two push stick habit and I'm grateful!


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## Lons (2 Feb 2019)

Interesting one this and I kind of agree that it shouldn't be needed if you concentrate 100% of the time and use the correct push sticks but I also agree that it's very easy to get distracted, my missus did that to me one day when I was using the tablesaw by yelling dinner was ready until I told her off and explained the potential consequences.

The fact that they're "effin expensive" is completely irrelevant as either you can afford / justify them or you can't and if you can and decide that they are useful as an *additional* safety precaution then I see nothing at all wrong with that even though I wouldn't personally buy one as I'm perfectly happy with my push sticks.

Neither can I accept that it would necessarily make anyone more reckless when using machinery, those people are going to do so anyway and having one might just save fingers or a hand and make that person realise they've had a close call.

Technology making drivers more reckless? Doubt that as again they're going to do it anyway just maybe crash sooner so do we say those drivers shouldn't wear a seat belt or cyclists don't need crash helmets? If ABS, ABD, 4wd, collision pre sensor etc saves even one life then it's all worthwhile, if a saw stop saves one nasty accident then ditto imo.


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## Jacob (2 Feb 2019)

Just a query - we've seen the sausage demo many times. Does each demo entail a new blade etc? I read somewhere that it works but destructively - you can't just switch back on. Maybe they've improved it?


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## AJB Temple (2 Feb 2019)

Jacob - I am not arguing. However, I am not a full time woodworker. I have two workshop (one being my large kitchen build) and a 3 year old and a 6 year old running around along with a wife who gets my attention whenever she wants. So distractions are plentiful and I don't mind paying for extra safety. Sawn off fingers are hard to replace. 

I've seen a few accidents in my time: grinder stations, angle grinders., stone cutters, chain saws, falling off towers, bandsaw cuts, circular saw kick back and multiple electric shocks. Almost all from supposed professionals. 

I expect you are super safe. But I am fallible.


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## Trevanion (2 Feb 2019)

Jacob":1sx1rugi said:


> Just a query - we've seen the sausage demo many times. Does each demo entail a new blade etc? I read somewhere that it works but destructively - you can't just switch back on. Maybe they've improved it?



New blade and cartridge from what I've seen. I think if you send the cartridge back to Sawstop and they prove it was finger related they'll send you a new one.


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## Jacob (2 Feb 2019)

AJB Temple":3vvaglku said:


> ....
> I expect you are super safe. But I am fallible.


So is Saw-stop. 
It's mechanical and all machines can fail. 
It's switchable on or off and may be left off accidentally. 
If it goes off accidentally (damp wood etc) the cost and time taken to replace the blade etc will be a big deterrent to using it again
You won't have it on all machines (other saws, spindle etc) so you still need to get up to speed with push sticks.
Once you've done that you won't need Sawstop.
I can see it's going to sell in small numbers - somebody might make some money. That's the problem, nobody would ever get rich by promoting push sticks.


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## Lons (2 Feb 2019)

> It's mechanical and all machines can fail.


People fail as well, probably much more often than machines in which case it might save some fingers.


> It's switchable on or off and may be left off accidentally.


An earlier post suggests you have to purposefully switch it off as by default it's on but in any event that's up to the individual just like wearing safety specs etc.


> If it goes off accidentally (damp wood etc) the cost and time taken to replace the blade etc will be a big deterrent to using it again


Again up to the individual and no different to any other decision. If you crash the car does the cost of repairs stop you driving again just in case. :roll: Do the saw stops have a history of going off in damp wood? haven't seen any issues. 


> You won't have it on all machines (other saws, spindle etc) so you still need to get up to speed with push sticks.Once you've done that you won't need Sawstop.


I haven't seen anyone on here suggest it replaces other safety measures. Anyone who doesn't learn to operate a machine safely shouldn't be using it in the first place.


> I can see it's going to sell in small numbers - somebody might make some money..


Festool must think differently but then what experience do their development guys have in comparison to yours!

I'm of similar opinion to you Jacob in that I'm happy with push sticks, have at least a dozen around the machines but what on earth is wrong with anyone who chooses to buy as an additional safety measure? Their money, decision not yours or mine.

PS
I assume your information comes from google and not personal use?

PPS, from a article


> _In short, I can see why Festool wanted to acquire SawStop. It’s a good play. Sawstop had just under 40 million USD in sales revenue in 2016, and TTS earned EUR 580 million (~655 million USD)._


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## Trevanion (1 Jun 2019)

Happened to get an email from Felder about Ligna 2019 and a little accompanying video of what was there. I saw that now Felder have their own form of Sawstop technology in some of their saws:

https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html

[youtube]JyJcrUtQo28[/youtube]

It would be interesting to see how they come up with this system to skirt around sawstops patents, unless there's some form of collaboration going on. I'm guessing it will be an optional extra for all of the saws down the line, not just the Format4s.


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## Doug71 (1 Jun 2019)

Trevanion":2lqf0537 said:


> Happened to get an email from Felder about Ligna 2019 and a little accompanying video of what was there. I saw that now Felder have their own form of Sawstop technology in some of their saws:
> 
> https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html
> 
> ...



Their is a discussion about it and a few more videos on Festool Owners Group

http://festoolownersgroup.com/other-too ... ct-system/


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## Shrubby (2 Jun 2019)

I posted earlier in this thread, a consortium of European manufacturers and IFW Stuttgart have been developing an infra red based system for a long time


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## Jacob (2 Jun 2019)

Apparently a consortium of wizards deep in a cave somewhere have been developing a simple device which not only makes "saw stop" completely redundant, also is much more reliable, usable immediately on nearly all machines, increases reach and control over the workpiece, just about eliminates risk of harm to the handler, costs pennies. Only problem found so far is that you need two of them.


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## Nick Laguna UK (3 Jun 2019)

Lons":1m2c57yj said:


> > I can see it's going to sell in small numbers - somebody might make some money..
> 
> 
> Festool must think differently but then what experience do their development guys have in comparison to yours!



It certainly had the crowds watching at Ligna - they demo'd with a bratwurst of course & every 30mins or so a Festool guy with a microphone and large screen did the demo - Ligna is mainly dealer sell in focused for most manufacturers. My stand was opposite Festool and when there were no demo's the looping music on their big screen was like an earworm for 5 days..



Lons":1m2c57yj said:


> PPS, from a article
> 
> 
> > _In short, I can see why Festool wanted to acquire SawStop. It’s a good play. Sawstop had just under 40 million USD in sales revenue in 2016, and TTS earned EUR 580 million (~655 million USD)._



My American colleague told me they paid $100 mill for Sawstop. The patent also expires in a year or so they said..

Felder showing their system in real life keine bratwurst here 

https://www.facebook.com/feldergroupusa ... 994655619/


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