# Help with Sash windows



## woodsworth (20 Mar 2010)

I"m building some sash windows for a friend and want to use spring balances. I didn't groove the window frame though! As i heard that you could grove the openers. I'm having difficulty finding any information on it though. The other thing is the top opener has heels on them. 

So can i groove the openers?

How do i calculate the length of the spring balances? I don't want to see the spring when it is opened, and i want it to open all the way.

The measurements of the window opening is 49 inches

The measurement of the top window is 29 with the heel 

The measurement of the lower one is 26 inches

Is there a special spring balance if the groove is on the opener? and what about attaching the balance to the ones with the heels?

I thought that i could attach the balance to the opener and turn the casing to adjust and attach it to the frame so there isn't any fixings visible on the heel, will that work?

The other question if that isn't enough is do you put brush seals on the opener as well so they slide against that instead of wearing the wood? or do you us some kind of felt at the top and bottom corners?

Thanks in advance


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## SNight (20 Mar 2010)

Do you have to use spring balances? I have found they nearly always go faulty! If you can use traditional weights, cord and pulleys the sashes slide a lot easier.

If you can't not to worry. Spring balances grooved into the box look very ugly, I always groove them into the sashes.

By 'heels', do you mean Horns? If so not a problem, does not make any difference.

If you get intouch with a company such as Reddiseals or Hebden Holding they will work out the correct spring balances for you with the measurements you have provided.

Yes, you can use a brush seal on the edges of your sashes, and I would definitely do this if you are using spring balances.

Again, I would really try to use traditional cord and weights, it amazing how much smoother they work, and less hassle in the long term they are compared to balances.


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## JFC (20 Mar 2010)

I think they look far better let into the frame ...










you also don't have to groove out a load of mortice and tenon that will weaken the sash . I do a 17mm x 17mm grove to take the spirals . You can also buy a gasketed parting bead that will stop draughts and i put a brush on the face lining and one in the staff bead . They do a meeting rail system but i think its nasty so just let a brush into one of the openers . I get all my parts from mighton products .
You will need to see part of the spiral as you need to get the hook tool in the groove to tension them . If they are breaking then you are over doing it . The hook that holds the top sash spiral is hidden in the groove and the bottom one is let into the bottom of the frame so i ask for extra top sash hooks so i can hide them both .


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## woodsworth (20 Mar 2010)

Thanks for the replies thus far. I did use a gasket parting bead. But the frames are already glued together so mortising for the groove isn't an option at this point. If i did it again i would do it in the frame. It is the first set of sash windows i've done so it is what it is. I was going by some information i read on the internet somewhere but can't find the article i read when i started them. I should of bookmarked it. 

Any advice on doing it with the groove on the openers would be appreciated. Yes that is a horn instead of heel. 

How do you calculate the length of the spring balance?


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## joiner_sim (20 Mar 2010)

I would write up myself how to do these, however, I would really only be following Mighton's advice that I have followed in the past anyway. So here's the links to mighton's advice.

How to install Spiral Sash Balances PDF: http://www.mightonproducts.com/catalog/downloads/fen-instructions.pdf

Animation/ Demonstration: http://www.mightonproducts.com/catalog/demonstrations.php

Hope this helps you out :wink:


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## woodsworth (21 Mar 2010)

Thanks for the link i'm looking at it very closely. The animated version shows the groove on the frame instead of the openers but i'll look through the site and see what i can find. Thanks.


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## joiner_sim (21 Mar 2010)

Basically make the frame up. If you are replacing an old weighted sash window then make the frame up the traditional way (without pockets). If you don't want the traditional way, just make up the frame with 32mm stiles. Then make up your sash casements, but I would suggest thickening up the stiles so that you can groove for the spirals. Groove all the stiles on sliding casements. 
The top casement... Screw the spiral into the top of the frame stile. Fix a metal catch into the bottom of the casement stile groove. Then pull your spiral and slide into the catch.
The bottom casment... Screw the spiral into the top of the frame stile. Cut out on the bottom rail for the metal piece on the end of the spiral.Then just pull and screw in. Should all work. Fit stops accordingly.


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## Steve-Sash (21 Mar 2010)

What about the hook for the top sash, how does that work with the Horns ????


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## squib (21 Mar 2010)

JFC... lovely sash windows ,I really like the thin glazing bars, are they planted on the glass or are they separate panes.


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## joiner_sim (22 Mar 2010)

Steve-Sash":9x0t4eys said:


> What about the hook for the top sash, how does that work with the Horns ????



Groove straight down the stile, out thru the horn. Then fix in the hook/ metal piece. I find that grooving out the stile to fit the spring is the best thing to do. However then you will need to chop the metal piece deeper into the groove. I'd router it out freehand, The spring would be level with the end of the horn, maybe slightly under.


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## woodsworth (24 Mar 2010)

thanks joiner_sim that did the trick. I grooved right through the horn and used Mightons balance sashes, they work brilliantly. Thanks for linking me to their site. After laying some slate in the cottage i came home and fit one of them to see how it all works. It is actually very easy. I do see what you mean about it being nicer if you groove the frame though. but wouldn't it be harder to get the windows in with the hardware on? Or do you put the windows in and put the hardware on in situ. 

Any how thanks, i'll pull them all apart again and paint them and put them back together now that i feel confident that they are all going to work.


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## SNight (24 Mar 2010)

Just my opinion, but how does it look nicer when you groove the pulley stile? From the outside you see a big ugly groove on the pulley stile under the top sash! For me it is a lot neater to groove the edges of the sahses as has been done for generations.


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## woodsworth (24 Mar 2010)

That would be my opinion to but it isn't to bad. I thought of doing a blind groove on the horn and just unscrewing the balance to do the turns needed to adjust but if they ever need adjusting years down the line i don't want to leave my friend unable to do so.

Here's a few pictures.


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## joiner_sim (24 Mar 2010)

looking good :wink: they are simple to install really. It's the making the window thats the hard part.


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## woodsworth (24 Mar 2010)

That's not all that bad either really. I don't know how much time it takes as i built it them in bits and spurts of time.


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## joiner_sim (25 Mar 2010)

They don't take that long really when you know what you're doing. I have just done so many in the past, that I've found them hard in the way, that its been so repetitive, doing 20-30 windows at a time, sometimes.


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## woodsworth (27 Mar 2010)

LoL what a terrible thing that would be having to do 20 or 30 at once!!! I could only imagine, and calculate the profit *smiles*


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## joiner_sim (27 Mar 2010)

woodsworth":ekvjq8u8 said:


> LoL what a terrible thing that would be having to do 20 or 30 at once!!! I could only imagine, and calculate the profit *smiles*



Its all profit when you're working PAYE!!! Company does the legwork, so you don't have to.... I guess there making a bigger profit than I am though.... (don't work for the same company now anyway, i've moved into furniture and shopfitting)


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