# carving chisels - Pfeil and chisel size explanation



## woodmani (29 Nov 2007)

Hi All,

My dad is a carpenter by trade and he has expressed an interest in doing wood carving so i thought i could get this for him for xmas. I had a look on rutlands.co.uk for carving chisels. My initial interest was to look for bahco (formly sandvik) or marples or stanley but marples are becoming antiques hence expensive and bahco don't seem to make carving chisels and my dad is not a big fan of the new stanely tools anymore as he says their new tools are not like their old ones, which he has. I have now come across Pfeil which is a swiss company. Any opinions on this manufacturer and the quality of their tools?

I also wanted to ask if you could kindly explain what the sizes mean when you are looking at carving chisel. Examples are as such:
1/12, 1s/12, 5/12, 4/20, 7/10, 9/4, 12/8

your help is much appreciated
Mani


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## pam niedermayer (29 Nov 2007)

Pfeils are good chisels, even better would be Dastra or Stubai; but they're close in quality.

The numbers denote shape and size, so, for example, 1/12 would be a #1 straight gouge (no curve) with a 12 mm edge. A 4/20 would be a #4 curve (more curve than #3, less than #5) with a 20 mm edge, as measured across the curve.

Pam


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## Pete W (29 Nov 2007)

Hi Mani - since everyone else is being shy, allow me to say 'Welcome to the forum' .

I don't know a lot about carving tools, but I've read around the subject since dabbling in carving is on my long list of things to do eventually.

This page will help explain the numbering, but basically there are two similar-but-different systems - the Sheffield and the European numbering systems, which describe the shape of the chisel blade. For example, straight chisels, or gouges of various radii, or bent gouges, and so on. Those are the first number.

The second number will be the size in millimetres.

As to brands, there seems to be even more confusion here than about the numbering systems. Each brand seems to have its supporters and critics; and while there's universal acclaim for older brands like Addis and Herring their prices reflect that and often seem to run as high as premium modern brands.

Then there's folks will tell you not to buy a set because it will include chisels that you'll seldom use. On the other hand, you (or I) may not want to spend over £100 on a few chisels and then find we don't like carving that much so a set is an easy way in.

If I were looking to buy right now, I might try this set from the Toolpost. But I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to disagree with me 

Pete


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## pam niedermayer (29 Nov 2007)

The Sorby's we've been receiving in the US are apparently highly variable in quality, many being soft, others being fine.

Pam


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## giacomo (29 Nov 2007)

I own some Pfeil gouge and I find them very good for the price I paid (I purchased them from Dick.biz). They come already handled and sharpened.

cheers

G


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## matthewwh (29 Nov 2007)

Hi Mani,

Welcome aboard!

Your link has been picked up by the spam prevention software (this wears off after you have made a few posts) Rutlands carving section is here: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psDept.cgi?Carving

Before going any further I should introduce myself - I run a small family business called Workshop Heaven selling good quality hand tools, so please take as large or as small a pinch of salt with my opinions as you like.

We stock Ashley Iles carving tools which, like Pfiels, are properly hand forged from superb steel, hand ground, individually hardness tested and will give several lifetimes of good service. The reasons why I chose to stock AI rather than Pfiel are as follows:

Ashley Iles are the only company who still produce the entire Sheffield list of carving tools, and some more besides, 

They will make custom tools to your requirements if necessary.

All their tools are guaranteed for life (yours - not the tools).

They will regrind or resharpen as necessary any tool that they made, at any time, free of charge. All you pay is the postage.

All of the carving tools are made in imperial sizes, which many older customers tend to feel much more comfortable with. 

The production process is completely traditional, including hand forging and freehand grinding, which is very nearly a lost art. The only exceptions being the furnaces, which are ultra modern, self regulating, computer controlled and accurate to within a degree and across the board rockwell hardness testing to ensure consitent quality.














In terms of the actual performance, AI's and Pfiels are less than a gnats whatnot apart and any carver would be chuffed to bits to see either of them peeking out from behind the wrapping paper. But at least now you have another option to consider.

All the best,


Matthew

p.s. Hi Pam,
I believe Sorby's did have issues a few years back with incorrectly hardened tools creeping through. Now they too test every single tool before it leaves the factory, it goes without saying that they will immediately replace any that aren't up to scratch.


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## pam niedermayer (29 Nov 2007)

matthewwh":1tq08t7b said:


> ...
> p.s. Hi Pam,
> I believe Sorby's did have issues a few years back with incorrectly hardened tools creeping through. Now they too test every single tool before it leaves the factory, it goes without saying that they will immediately replace any that aren't up to scratch.



Thanks, Matthew, this has done them almost irreparable harm in the US, people don't forget receiving bad tools. Perhaps Sorby should do some "mea culpa" advertising? Offer to refund money for them?

Pam


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## woodmani (30 Nov 2007)

Hi mathew,

I read your post about the type of steel which is ideal and how brittle carbon steel is and I found that topic of huge importance when selecting the right tool made of the right type of steel. I found Dakota on that website to be cheap but i know little about them and the type of alloy steel it is made from. The Pfeil are made of RC55-61 type steel which you mentioned is the balance of toughess and hard steel. My dad collection contains a mix of chisels some of which people have thrown away because the handle is broken and they have turned out to be marples chisels and mainly stanley and one sandvik. My dad is also a blacksmith so he knows the type of metal ideal for which type tool by the weight and sound of the metal so I want to be sure incase he turns around and thinks :roll: :? . 

My dad makes/rectifies all sorts of wooden objects but he likes furniture making best as thats what he did when he was a young lad before he undertook rectification work some years later. i think he would prefer to make tables as he has mentioned about making one for the front door so i thought with carving chisels he could have a go at making carving the legs. I have seen his carving work where he has assisted making a coffee table alongside his friend's dad and it almost looks like its from the shop. 

Thanks for all your help, its really appreciated. I will look around more before i choose.

thanks again

PS: does anyone know where i can get sharpening stones or if they come as a set due to the different sizes and shapes?

Mani


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## bugbear (30 Nov 2007)

I would recommend finding a book or website or magazine article on beginning carving.

As you have discovered, there is a truly remarkable range of chisels available, and you can't (I assume...) afford them all(*).

So you need to know which ones form a "natural" set.

AFAIK somewhere between 6-10 is around the minimum. The requirment also alter depending on wether you're doing gothic tracery on Arts & Crafts furniture, lettering, figurative work and so on.

"Carving" is a wide field.

BugBear

(*) I believe most manfacturers can do 1000-1200 !!!


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## tnimble (30 Nov 2007)

The smallest set would only consist of a straight of skewed carving knife. With which you can do chip carving and some basic figurine carving etcetera. But soon you would have need for some carving chisels especially a need for gouges. But then again there are a lot of carvers with only a couple of tools. It is just what carving techniques you're interested in.


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## matthewwh (30 Nov 2007)

Hi Mani,

Maybe I need to explain the rockwell scale a little better:

Both AI's and Pfiels are made from carbon steel, which, depending on how it is heat treated can be either soft and bendy or hard and brittle or anything inbetween.

Steel hardness is measured using the rockwell C-scale, measured on a machine like this:






The machine presses a diamond cone, known as a Brale indenter into the steel with a 150kg weight and measures how deep an indentation it makes. The result is expressed as an "RC" number between 1 and 100.

If you take a soft piece of steel - say RC45 you can bend it with your hands. As you move up the scale it gradually gets harder and more difficult to bend. When you reach RC61 it ceases to fail by bending and will begin to fail by snapping, this is therefore the optimum hardness. As you continue up the scale beyond RC61 it gradually becomes more and more brittle and progressively easier to snap.

The trick of making a good edge tool is to get the steel as close to RC61 as you can without going past it, so the tool is as hard as possible but still tough.

Most manufacturers express the hardness of their tools as being within a range of hardnesses; so Ashley Iles for example have a range of RC59-61, although in practice they almost invariably manage RC60-61. 

I would be very surprised if you found many Pfiel tools below RC59 either; although they allow themselves a little more tolerance by stating RC55-61 as their range.

I would suggest you ask your Dad, but that would give the game away somewhat.

As far as shapes and sizes go you could have a look at the York set which is contains the 6 most popular carving tools and is recommended for beginners. 

If you do find there are one or two that he doesn't need, you can can always trade them in (unused) against something more suitable.


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## woodbloke (30 Nov 2007)

I had a set of AI carving tools several years ago with rosewood handles...absolutely superb  - Rob


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## MarcW (30 Nov 2007)

pam niedermayer":3j6m87lw said:


> matthewwh":3j6m87lw said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



May I add that Sorby - I don't know if it the same for carving chisels - checks each chisel on a hardness tester. I read this in their 2005/06 catalogue. Indeed my Sorbys show an indentation point on the face side (side opposite of the bevel).


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## Wiley Horne (30 Nov 2007)

Just a few notes on the subject of carving gouges.....

I use and like very much Ashley Iles, Pfeil, and Two Cherries. They're all excellent steel. These are just the ones I know--there are lots of excellent brands of gouges. Ashley Iles usually has a little heavier blade than Pfeil or Two Cherries, and a bit steeper bevel. I happen to like a long flat bevel (and slight back bevel), so I usually grind the AI's to a flatter bevel. You might ask your Dad which type bevel he prefers. The Pfeils and Two Cherries have flatter bevels in my experience.

The Ashley Iles, as delivered in America where I bought mine, are usably sharp from the factory--which is saying a lot for a carving gouge. In other words, they are very sharp. Just a light strop is wanted. The Pfeil's come critically sharp from the factory. The Two Cherries, as delivered in US, need honing. I mention this, even though it may seem irrelevant because the user will have to resharpen fairly soon anyway, because it is useful to have a reference for how sharp a tool should be.

On the subject of sharpening, I would suggest diamond stones for bevel shaping and oil stones, or some type of hard stone, for honing. Gouges can be rough on water stones, even though I like to sharpen them primarily by a sideways rolling action.

As Bugbear said, there is no end to gouges. Might want to ask your Dad which sweeps and widths he tends to like, or thinks he might need. 

Wiley

P.S. The two different sweep systems have been mentioned up top. For the most typical sweeps, the Ashley Iles (Sheffield system) will be 1 number lower than the European sweeps. For example, an AI sweep 6 will be very close to a Pfeil or Two Cherries sweep 7. This matters if you mix and match with the two systems--it's easy to buy the same sweep twice if you're not aware that they are 1 number apart.


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## matthewwh (30 Nov 2007)

pam niedermayer":1rmq0gxo said:


> Thanks, Matthew, this has done them almost irreparable harm in the US, people don't forget receiving bad tools. Perhaps Sorby should do some "mea culpa" advertising? Offer to refund money for them?
> 
> Pam



Hi Pam,

I completely agree, given the penchants of the North American market it would have been a very good idea at the time. 

Having said that though, they already have a no-quibble replacement policy in place and took additional steps to correct the problem at the production stage as soon as the issue was identified. 

The English culture tends to be much more pragmatic about these matters than that of our North American cousins. Having extended an open offer to replace any tool that didn't adequately represent the standards that the company upholds, and taken specific steps to rectify the problem at source, most UK suppliers would consider their duty to customers fulfilled. 

If a specific situation arose where a customer had suffered particular inconvenience it would normally fall upon the retailer to make things right or thank the customer for conspicuous patience and understanding.


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## pam niedermayer (30 Nov 2007)

matthewwh":1h4oxkqu said:


> ...Having said that though, they already have a no-quibble replacement policy in place and took additional steps to correct the problem at the production stage as soon as the issue was identified.
> 
> The English culture tends to be much more pragmatic about these matters than that of our North American cousins. Having extended an open offer to replace any tool that didn't adequately represent the standards that the company upholds, and taken specific steps to rectify the problem at source, most UK suppliers would consider their duty to customers fulfilled. ...



Now, see, that's what I said/recommended; however, I didn't know anything about this new policy. They need to advertise it.

Pam


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