# Attaching a timber frame to an old stone wall



## Bodrighy (10 Jun 2007)

Not sure if this belongs here or in the off topic forum. Apologies if not 

At the bottom of my garden, an old school house, there is a shelter, approx 10' x 6' that is made of three stone walls with a solid tiled roof. I intend to put a front on it to convert it to a small workshop. At present I am in the attic.

My question is, what is the best way to connect the frame to the walls? As it is about 150 years old and stone, it is not even. Can I just build the frame and infill with something or is there a better way?

Pete


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## Paul.J (10 Jun 2007)

Pete.
Glad to see you've finally sorted a proper workshop out,all being well.  
As for fixing the frame i should think you would have to mark and drill into the mortar or what ever it is for your fixings,and then as you say use some sort of infill.
I'm no expert Pete,but i'm sure there will be someone with this sort of experience soon.
Paul.J.


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## inventor (10 Jun 2007)

I can't suggest a solution for the join, but I have to spoil the party by asking, isn't this new workshop going to be horrendously damp compared to your attic?


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## Bodrighy (10 Jun 2007)

inventor":1n0h17f6 said:


> I can't suggest a solution for the join, but I have to spoil the party by asking, isn't this new workshop going to be horrendously damp compared to your attic?



The walls are 2' thick slate and rendered inside with cement. The roof is fairly new and underlined in waterproof sheeting. As long as I build the fourth wall correctly I should be OK.....hopefully. If it does show signs of damp and it hasn't yet, despite the fact that it is open on one side, I'll tank it.
It will be twice the size I have at the moment and give room to stand up straight all the way around the lathe, a luxury I don't have at the moment.

Pete


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## houtslager (10 Jun 2007)

hmmmm I think you will run into problems with this new workshop if you go on in that manner, I stand tobe corrected by others tho'.

I personally would build a stud wall inside the three stone walls, line with a membrane first to prevent damp coming through later.

Line the studding with , and there are many options, tho' my favourite for speed and ease is 19mm OSB tongue and grooved. Strong enough to take most fixings. Takes paint well and can even be left as is.

This allows one to put in any conduit/cable/piping for the electrics a, water and waste.

This will thenh allow you to build the fourth wall directly onto the new inner stud wall.

HS


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## wrightclan (10 Jun 2007)

Agree with houtslager.

BTW, I'm in the attic too--but not for long.   

Brad


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## Bodrighy (10 Jun 2007)

I am not too sure why I would be making problems. I have lived in stone cottages for the last 20 years with no damp problem and so don't really understand what would cause this. The walls and floor are all slate, the walls cement rendered and there is no sign of any damp on any of the walls at present. Is it because I would be enclosing it? 

I'm not arguing by the way, just picking brains as it is a new area of endeavour for me. 

Appreciate your help in this 

Pete


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## wrightclan (10 Jun 2007)

Bodrighy":2yp5fkuu said:


> I am not too sure why I would be making problems. I have lived in stone cottages for the last 20 years with no damp problem and so don't really understand what would cause this. The walls and floor are all slate, the walls cement rendered and there is no sign of any damp on any of the walls at present. Is it because I would be enclosing it?
> 
> I'm not arguing by the way, just picking brains as it is a new area of endeavour for me.
> 
> ...



Well, if you heat the space, you will have warm moist air, condensing on cold stone walls. Good ventilation will help. But ideally, you would have good insulation, vapourbarrier, and adequate ventilation.

Brad


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## wrightclan (10 Jun 2007)

Oh, I just noticed how small the shed is. By adding interior stud walls, you'll be reducing that size even more. :shock: My attic space is way bigger than that. Could you add to the length of the shed--extend in the direction of the current open wall?

Brad


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## Bodrighy (10 Jun 2007)

wrightclan":1jpkf4nx said:


> Oh, I just noticed how small the shed is. By adding interior stud walls, you'll be reducing that size even more. :shock: My attic space is way bigger than that. Could you add to the length of the shed--extend in the direction of the current open wall?
> 
> Brad



There's room but I am not sure about my expertise. I live on Exmoor so have to be careul about building, National Park and all that.... Just putting a front on an existing building is OK but if I extend it I will be going beyond the roof line and have to extend the other two walls as well. It used to be a shelter for the the little village school so it is old, solid and local slate. 

It may seem small to you but to me it means I can stand upright, access both ends of my lathe and have a work bench instead of a workmate with a plank vised onto it.....Heaven :lol:


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## Shultzy (10 Jun 2007)

Bodrighy, I would build the frame and then bolt it to the wall with rawl bolts and threaded bar. Infill the gaps with mastic. Cut the outer cladding to fit the wall profile and then fill the gaps with mastic. Paint to suit.


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## engineer one (11 Jun 2007)

if it is three sided, why not put a treated wood face frame on the front, and then put windows and a door in it???

by that i mean that rather than try to tie it into the sides, tie it from the front. will give you a larger area to fix on to , and also make it easier to add insulation.

long rawl type bolts and expanding fixings would seem the way to go.

paul :wink:


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## OLD (11 Jun 2007)

With a unknown background (the old walls ) use a resin bond where you drill a hole clean out well inject two part mix and insert threaded rod then fix frame to rods fill voids with foam or mastic scribe and cut trim to tidy up.Try and incorporate glass in the frames for free light . There are plenty of paint on solutions to sort damp if required.
Resin fixings page 45 Screwfix.


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## houtslager (11 Jun 2007)

It would make our job of free advice  much easier if you could post piccies of said "shed" and a drawing with dimensions.

Tho' after reading the previous posts, I stick with my pennies worth , but amend to doing the new front as per OLD's suggestion, and use chemical anchors with studding will allow the whole front tobe "added" to the shed 

HS trying to get into my white paper suit for the rockwool insulation  allegy with the damn stuff


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## kees (11 Jun 2007)

Bodrighy":2lt5v14z said:


> inventor":2lt5v14z said:
> 
> 
> > I can't suggest a solution for the join, but I have to spoil the party by asking, isn't this new workshop going to be horrendously damp compared to your attic?
> ...



how much overlap does the roof have? If enough you can insulate the outside. The stone inside can accumulate the warmth when you have a small heater. When you are not there the walls can radiate the accumulated warmth.


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## White House Workshop (11 Jun 2007)

If the walls are slate you won't have any 'rising damp' problems (slate was used as a DPC for long enough in many buildings) but you will have condensation problems as others have said. Drilling into slate isn't so easy because of the make-up of the stone. 

I'd also vote for building a frame inside the existing walls, only I'd make it free-standing inasmuch that it isn't actually fastened to the slate, just a tight fit. Include a polythene sheet as a dpc, and put some expanded polyfoam sheeting in as an insulation layer. You don't really need anything too fancy for the wall covering so why not use chipboard flooring panels? They will provide additional insulation, they also have a waxed surface on the underside, and you can hang stuff from them - even quite heavy stuff if you use the right fasteners.


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## dickm (11 Jun 2007)

I'd certainly go with those suggesting insulating and lining the walls. When we lived in a stone farmhouse near Lancaster, it just needed a sudden change from cold/dry to warm/wet, and the walls were as wet as anything from condensation. Even the wallpaper used to hang in folds until the weather changed again  
It would be even better if you could line/insulate outside, but I guess the Dartmoor NP would have a thousand fits at changes to outside apperance.


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## Bodrighy (11 Jun 2007)

I've lived in stone houses for the last 20 years and the only time I have had or seen any problem with condensation was with someone who had restored a stone house adding central heating, double glazing etc. As I would have none of these and plenty of ventilation I wouldn't expect condensation to be be a problem. The house I am in is built in the same material and the same thickness walls as the shelter and has a range that has to be on permanently for hot water etc. Again no condensation. I see where all you guys are coming from but the cost of all the things that are being suggested are more than a new shed would be and one thing that I have to avoid is spending too much money. I have all the 4X4 that I need for studding a wall and enough other wood to make a double skinned wall. I even have enough 4" insualtion (sandwiched in something shiny) to fill in between. At the moment all that I would need to buy is glass for windows. 

Pete


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