# road cycling



## flying haggis (29 Sep 2019)

Just seen coverage of this event in Yorkshire on tv. I thought cycling was very environmentally friendly, not when the "pros" do it. Have you seen how many support vehicles are involved!!
Give them one bike and if they get a puncture etc ,let the rider sort it, not throw the bike to one side and leap on another.


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## That would work (29 Sep 2019)

Because it's a professional sport. :roll: they are not riding to work.


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## thetyreman (29 Sep 2019)

they go bloody fast as well, didn't realise until I saw it first hand


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## flying haggis (29 Sep 2019)

but why do they have to disrupt thousands of peoples daily lives just to tour about the country. why not hold the whole thing at silverstone and brands hatch and all the other racing circuits? they could still go round the country using different circuits in different areas.


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## MikeG. (29 Sep 2019)

thetyreman":2gk0t2ya said:


> they go bloody fast as well, didn't realise until I saw it first hand



I offer anyone here the challenge of hopping on their bike and trying to ride on the flat at 30mph. Even for 1 second. Then imagine averaging 30 mph for 120+ miles, as they recently did in La Vuelta.


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## MikeG. (29 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":28d0p6i1 said:


> but why do they have to disrupt thousands of peoples daily lives just to tour about the country. why not hold the whole thing at silverstone and brands hatch and all the other racing circuits? they could still go round the country using different circuits in different areas.



Is it disturbing you? It's one of the most popular sports in the country, and we are one of the most successful cycling nations on the planet. Additionally, this is the format of the World Championships, which we are hosting. It lasts just a few days, and is one of the most important spectator sports in the world. I'm terribly sorry that it's bothering you......maybe you could write to the organisers and suggest the changes you want to see for next time. Don't forget to describe how you are going to get thousands of feet of climbing into Silverstone, will you. Oh, and how you propose to compensate the local businesses for the millions they will lose by not being involved.


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## That would work (29 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":2jfwcfno said:


> but why do they have to disrupt thousands of peoples daily lives just to tour about the country. why not hold the whole thing at silverstone and brands hatch and all the other racing circuits? they could still go round the country using different circuits in different areas.


Because it's ROAD racing which is a recognised disipline within pro (and amateur) cycling. Does it really disrupt thousands of people???? Somehow I think not and even if it does mean a bit of a change of plan for some people well so what? 
Compared to other sports it represents no more "disruption". And no crowd violence either.
We should all be far more able to embrace a sport which has been more successful for the UK than most others.


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## Noel (29 Sep 2019)

I agree with all MikeG and others have said. Should the London Marathon and similar events be moved to a circuit like Silverstone or B Hatch? 
I think you'll find few agreeing with you. Get out to a big race some time and you'll experience the excitement and buzz, something well worth doing. Was stage side on the TdF a few times in the Pyrenees, unforgettable.


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## flying haggis (29 Sep 2019)

" Should the London Marathon and similar events be moved to a circuit like Silverstone or B Hatch? " Why not?

"Compared to other sports it represents no more "disruption".

" It's one of the most popular sports in the country, and we are one of the most successful cycling nations on the planet." So what!

How can a sporting event that is spread along thousands of kms of road NOT disrupt peoples daily lives. same for the marathon and all the other similiar events. there are plenty of purpose built running venues around the country, many built at vast expense, the london olympic venues for instance that should be used. God knows how the french put up with it every year.


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## doctor Bob (29 Sep 2019)

I watched it, all that rain, the chaffing must be horrendous.

Some very interesting forehead tan lines.


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## Geoff_S (29 Sep 2019)

I don't want to get sucked into this but the vortex is too great.

It doesn't disrupt thousands as long as the thousands know it's going to happen. The Prudential London Cycle was interesting in 2013. They basically closed London and a chunk of Surrey. We found out about this only when coming back from Oxford and wondering what the hell was going on as we approached Hampton Court bridge. Well, we then found out about the cycle ride and that a large number of Thames bridges were closed! We eventually had to park up for 5 hours until the bridges opened. We now know to check each year when the bloody thing is on and make sure we have no plans for that weekend that involve getting around or across Surrey/London. 

One year we also got shafted with the London to Brighton ride. Mind you, that was many years ago before it all became trendy, but none the less, we check every year for when that one is on.

So the best thing to do is to get well away from the area, as in the year we stopped overnight in York on our way up to Scotland. Just the 4 hours wait to get out of York the next day. That was the start of the Tour de France (English bit) or something like that.

We have learnt now to check out "What's On" before going anywhere now, just in case.


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## John Brown (29 Sep 2019)

While I love the idea that the contestants should have to fix their own punctures, I used to live about 200 metres from the Prudential route, and the upside was that all the potholes along the route get fixed in preparation for the race.


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## tony_s (29 Sep 2019)

Flying haggis- does the VERY odd cycling event really impact your life that much? Yes, it can be a pain but in the scheme of things the effect is minimal. 
I used to race veterans league races (until I had my neck fractured) and their races always had a sort of rolling road block set up. I mean for local people the disturbance was negligible. Professional races might be more of a pain but a lot of people enjoy these events and, lets face it, they don't happen all that often.


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## MikeG. (29 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":3aoob27g said:


> ....... a sporting event that is spread along thousands of kms of road.........



Ah, I see now. You don't know what you're talking about, so this is a straight forward argument from ignorance, a classic fallacy. Everything you say on the matter can be disregarded. I assume a cyclist kicked your puppy sometime. Before you dig yourself a deeper hole, why don't you see if there is a difference between the Grand Tours and the World Championships. Google will help you.


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## Jacob (29 Sep 2019)

Good to see cycling taking off in Britain. 
We saw the Tour of Britain stage 3 set off from Berwick a few weeks ago - brilliant everybody loved it.
We watch Tour de France every year, done a few routes ourselves including Mont Ventoux and the pyrenees via Col de Larrau - not the highest - we haven't done the Tourmalet yet! Cycle touring, not racing.
The roads belong to all of us (except motorways).


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## Noel (29 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":1xpj01ko said:


> " Should the London Marathon and similar events be moved to a circuit like Silverstone or B Hatch? " Why not?
> 
> "Compared to other sports it represents no more "disruption".
> 
> ...



I've a feeling you are not much of a sports fan, of any sport...
Anyway, you seriously think the London marathon could be held at ex Olympic venues or at B Hatch or Silverstone? How would that work? Any idea?
Clues: B Hatch GP circuit is less than 3 miles, Silverstone GP circuit is, what, under 4 miles or so? It takes around an hour for runners to cross the start line in the London marathon. See where I'm going here?

As for the French (and Dutch/Spanish/Belgian et al), I was in a village prior to the TdF coming through, I saw nothing but excitement and mad enthusiasm from the locals. It was obvious that the day (and it was only a day) was the biggest thing to hit the area in decades.

BTW, check out how many attend the TdF, it may surprise you.


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## Lons (29 Sep 2019)

I've always been reasonably pro cyclists however a very recent week in the peak district changed all that with races and constant other streams of cyclists around every narrow twisting road and some of the fast main roads as well.
No road closures, minimal signs of races apart from the odd motorcyclist at strategic junctions so little warning.

It wouldn't matter so much but some of them are downright bl**dy irresponsible, pulling out to overtake without warning or looking behind. I saw more than one close call! :roll: 

Ban the whole damn lot of them I say. :wink:


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## Jacob (29 Sep 2019)

Lons":215ewq93 said:


> I've always been reasonably pro cyclists however a very recent week in the peak district changed all that with races and constant other streams of cyclists around every narrow twisting road and some of the fast main roads as well.
> No road closures, minimal signs of races apart from the odd motorcyclist at strategic junctions so little warning.
> 
> It wouldn't matter so much but some of them are downright bl**dy irresponsible, pulling out to overtake without warning or looking behind. I saw more than one close call! :roll:


Cyclist can't easily look behind and mirrors don't help much. But surely if you were behind anyway you could see they were going to overtake whatever it was?
It would have been time trials not road racing, or maybe just a guided ride if there were marshalls of any sort.


> Ban the whole damn lot of them I say. :wink:


If you have a problem with other road users have you thought of top-up driving lessons? Often a good idea if you passed the test a long time ago and starting to find things difficult to cope with.


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## Lons (29 Sep 2019)

Jacob":36dh6t9m said:


> Cyclist can't easily look behind and mirrors don't help much. But surely if you were behind anyway you could see they were going to overtake whatever it was?


Not what they were overtaking but who as they were clearly racing whether timed or not and overtaking each other sometimes 3 and 4 abreast, but as always you've taken up the batton and got it ar*e about face. :lol: :lol:

* Your powers of observation are clearly impaired as you failed to notice the :wink: at the end of my post. :lol: :lol:

* I never said I couldn't overtake them, read the ****** post properly :roll:

* If they can't see behind then they shouldn't pull out to overtake, no excuses, often on blind corners and whilst they are risking their own lives they are also endangering the lives of others. Some of this was over a very busy Saturday, sun shining, cars full of kids, as I said "irresponsible"!


> If you have a problem with other road users have you thought of top-up driving lessons? Often a good idea if you passed the test a long time ago and find things difficult to cope with.



And in reply to that last crass and insulting sentence, I'm an advanced driver though it's non of your business tbh however please come cycling to my part of the world and I'll give you the due care and attention you so richly deserve.


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## Jacob (29 Sep 2019)

Lons":1cce19rf said:
 

> ....
> And in reply to that last crass and insulting sentence, I'm an advanced driver .....


Really? Doesn't sound like it :lol: 
Derbyshire is very popular with cyclists being in easy reach of Manchester, Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham etc and has major attractions like the High peak and Monsal trails. Probably the most cycled part of Britain. So perhaps best avoided. 
The M1 not far away you could just drive up and down there instead? No cyclist at all!
PS cyclists are usually safer riding in groups as this makes them easier to overtake in one pass, even if you have to wait for the right moment, rather than overtaking each one strung out in a long line. Some less advanced motorists don't know this. 3 abreast isn't good though.


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## Lons (29 Sep 2019)

Jacob":pn4wpg7y said:


> Lons":pn4wpg7y said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



To start with are you calling me a liar, if so you're the ars*hole I suspect you are! Easy to type but you wouldn't be saying it to my face - I guarantee it! Next time you visit Berwick, give me a call and we can have a nice cosy chat.

The Peak district is a lovely place, shame it's spoiled by idiots like you.


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## MikeG. (30 Sep 2019)

Lons":3japuyvr said:


> ........To start with are you calling me a liar, if so you're the ars*hole I suspect you are! Easy to type but you wouldn't be saying it to my face - I guarantee it! Next time you visit Berwick, give me a call and we can have a nice cosy chat.
> 
> The Peak district is a lovely place, shame it's spoiled by idiots like you.



Lons, you can do better than this. The "Ignore" button is there for a reason.


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## Lons (30 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":2l7a0sn5 said:


> Lons, you can do better than this. The "Ignore" button is there for a reason.



Yeah your right Mike, I allowed myself to be sucked in last night and regret it this morning though I won't retract what I said about him.

My only excuse is that I'd been drowning my sorrows a bit watching my footie team get thrashed by Leicester, pleased I didn't make the trip south.  Back to normal today except for a headache. :lol:


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## Lons (30 Sep 2019)

Jacob":3qgdbb58 said:


> PS cyclists are usually safer riding in groups as this makes them easier to overtake in one pass, even if you have to wait for the right moment, rather than overtaking each one strung out in a long line. Some less advanced motorists don't know this. 3 abreast isn't good though.



At least you read it again and added the above ps this morning. Well done! =D> 

What I said was 3 and 4 abreast and they weren't just riding like that which is bad anyway, they were actively racing and passing each other in that manner. I have no issue wit 2 abreast riding in a predictable and controlled manner.

All road users should be respectful and aware of other users and in those examples the cyclists were not. What I didn't say was one of the near misses I observed was 2 cyclists racing each other around a blind corner where there was a line of walkers on the side of the road walking towards them, no footpath and high narrow verge. They had as much right to be there as the cyclists and drivers like me and there could have been a nasty accident had any traffic been coming the other way.

I said SOME were irresponsible and no one can deny that.


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## Jacob (30 Sep 2019)

Lons":bgix7vkc said:


> ...
> I said SOME were irresponsible and no one can deny that.


And a lot of drivers are too, and also lethal, which cyclists are not (excepting a few very rare incidents).
Derbyshire gets jammed with traffic and there has been talk of controlling/banning it at peak holiday times and weekends. Don't know if that will come to anything though a lot of green tracks/trails are now protected as there was a spate of convoys of [email protected] in 4 wheel drives, wrecking them.
There has also been a big Derbyshire effort to promote and encourage cycling, which is a good thing all round. Reclaim the roads!
Cycling really starts to make sense when you find yourself cycling on a sunny day, free as a bird, past long bank-holiday or weekend traffic jams. :lol:
Maybe you should try it Lons - good for the blood pressure too.
https://www.friendsofthepeak.org.uk/wha ... s/traffic/


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## NikNak (30 Sep 2019)

Just to avoid any confusion.... i lurrrvv cycling, more so track cycling, but any cycling is good in my book =D> =D> (i used to work with the bronze medalist from the 2014 Indian Commonwealth Games, and was able to drool over her carbon fiber bike with an oval crank =P~ i say 'work with' in the loosest sense... we were employed by the same company :mrgreen: )

However.... going slightly off-track for a moment (see what i did there :wink: ) 
is there _anything_ that Claire Balding doesn't get involved with or is an 'expert' on.? 
tennis
dogs
flowers
religion
Award ceremonies
cooking

ok i made the cooking up, and i'm sure it wont be long before she's presenting Homes Under The Hammer. She just strikes me as a female Alan Titchmarsh... ex gardener cum antiques expert cum interviewer etc.... just does my turnip in :roll:

Thats it.... rant(?) over, i'm off to kick the dog as its just wee'd on the flowers while i was trying to pray while baking some scones..... (hammer) (hammer)


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## Lons (30 Sep 2019)

Many times I've said that there are a lot of irresponsible drivers of car, van and HGV vehicles. so not quite sure what you're arguing about, apart from you saying recently that arguing is one of your hobbies - well blow me down, who would ever have guessed that. :lol: 
Doesn't change what I said about SOME cyclists acting in that manner!

Derbyshire isn't any different to many of the other tourist destinations like The West Country and The Lake District who are victims of their own long term advertising for tourism revenue. Take the tourists away, which will never happen btw and a sudden huge lose of renenue results which would be detrimental to local business, jobs and the economy. 

As an aside, we of course paid a visit to Chatsworth and they have the best farm shop we've ever been in with the exception of one near Sydney.

And thanks for your concern about my health which I can confirm is excellent including my BP. I have tried cycling btw and you can keep it, I have better things to do with my time to keep me fit and active.
Perhaps you need to look at your own situation as a person of your advanced years need to take extra care. Wouldn't want a doddery old bearded git to be knocked off his bike 'cos he can't wind in or turn his neck far enough to see what's behind him.

With that in mind here are a couple of bedtime reading suggestions, hope they help. :wink: 
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-ad ... ng-better/
https://www.everydayhealth.com/senior-h ... index.aspx


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## Noel (30 Sep 2019)

Somebody mention banning cycling?
Point of trivia info:
Cycling supports 70k or so jobs in the UK and is worth £6bn to the economy (as far as I recall reading not so long ago. 

These figures could well be doubled if there was a proper Dutch-like approach to cycling from the last dozen governments. Added bonus of health and well being along with better air quality etc.


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## Lons (30 Sep 2019)

Noel":3hc2fmh5 said:


> Somebody mention banning cycling?
> Point of trivia info:
> Cycling supports 70k or so jobs in the UK and is worth £6bn to the economy (as far as I recall reading not so long ago.
> 
> These figures could well be doubled if there was a proper Dutch-like approach to cycling from the last dozen governments. Added bonus of health and well being along with better air quality etc.


Read the post please Noel. There was a very distinct :wink: at the end of that sentence, something Mr angry wannabe MP failed to notice but I'm surprised you missed it, especially when I highlighted it again in a reponse to his rantings.

Was tongue in cheek marra, I wouldn't ban cylists even were it possible, my son is an enthusiast.

What I would do is enforce compulsory insurance on them if using public roads. ( Note no :wink: after that one!  )


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## Jacob (30 Sep 2019)

Lons":17lcm5og said:


> ....
> What I would do is enforce compulsory insurance on them if using public roads.....


What for? Accidents and damages caused by cyclists (except to themselves) are so insignificant it'd be hardly worth collecting the premiums. Would you enforce insurance on pedestrians too?


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## Jacob (30 Sep 2019)

Lons":2pxk1w11 said:


> .....Wouldn't want a doddery old bearded git to be knocked off his bike 'cos he can't wind in or turn his neck far enough to see what's behind him.....


Exactly. 
Even more necessary that doddery old gits behind the driving wheel of lethal weapons should be capable of driving safely, know what they are doing and not lose their no claims bonus in a fit of pique.
PS Lons I don't read any of your subtle messages in emoticons, I tend not to notice them at all. 8-[


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## flying haggis (30 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":2d7biqid said:


> flying haggis":2d7biqid said:
> 
> 
> > ....... a sporting event that is spread along thousands of kms of road.........
> ...



no a cyclist didnt kick my puppy, but rest assured if they did they wouldnt be cycling now. of course this "race" and the others like it are spread along thousands of kilometres of road. just because you may not think it is disruptive, others do. as geoff said when the prudential event was staged in surrey in 2013 the effect on the locals was huge, I was in the area soon after the event and the locals were livid about the event, some couldnt even get out of thier own driveways for virtually all the day of the event. so as i am ignorant (your words not mine) why should everything i say be disregarded. i dont see why thousands of peoples live should be disrupted just for a cycle race that many couldnt care about. despite you seeming to defend the race and its organisers i have seen at first hand the chaos it causes. the support vehicles in particular seem to think that as they are "important" the normal road rules dont apply. driving the wrong way round roundabouts and on the wrong side of dual carriageways for instance. so if that sort of behaviour is not disruptive what would you say was?


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## Garno (30 Sep 2019)

Lons":3u87psjd said:


> Wouldn't want a doddery old bearded git to be knocked off his bike 'cos he can't wind in or turn his neck far enough to see what's behind him.



We can live in hope


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## MikeG. (30 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":371w7rdy said:


> ........ of course this "race" and the others like it are spread along thousands of kilometres of road.........



No, it isn't. You seem to be wearing your ignorance with pride.


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## powertools (30 Sep 2019)

I have no opinion on road racing but I have to say that about a week and a half ago we were on a trip to Derbyshire in our classic VW camper van and for one day we hired 2 e bikes and cycled the full length of the Monsal trail and back a total of about 19 miles and it was an amazing day and I would recommend it to anybody.


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## Jacob (30 Sep 2019)

powertools":6k3ybhba said:


> I have no opinion on road racing but I have to say that about a week and a half ago we were on a trip to Derbyshire in our classic VW camper van and for one day we hired 2 e bikes and cycled the full length of the Monsal trail and back a total of about 19 miles and it was an amazing day and I would recommend it to anybody.


It is surprising isn't it?
We went along it the day it opened and were amazed. We know the landscape round and about but from the trail it's magic. It's become a national tourist attraction - foreign tourists etc.
Been up and down dozens of times since, usually as circuit from home, taking in Chelmorton and going home on the High Peak trail.


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## powertools (30 Sep 2019)

I think we were lucky in that the weather for the time of year was really nice but the trail was not very busy and that made the day really enjoyable.


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## powertools (30 Sep 2019)

I almost wish you had not mentioned the high peak trail having looked it up that now seems the next thing for us to do in Derbyshire.


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## flying haggis (30 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":304qtbom said:


> flying haggis":304qtbom said:
> 
> 
> > ........ of course this "race" and the others like it are spread along thousands of kilometres of road.........
> ...



just like you then.

the race we have just seen was nearly one thousand kms in total and races like the tour of yorkshire are of similiar length so together they are thousands. the disruption is not just to the main route but every side road to the main route will also be affected as they will be closed for periods of time therefore causing more disruption. what if you or i needed to cross the main route during the closure.


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## Jacob (30 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":3u6zwzcs said:


> MikeG.":3u6zwzcs said:
> 
> 
> > flying haggis":3u6zwzcs said:
> ...


Moan moan!!
It's a moving circus. Each day it moves on and the previous days disruptions are tidied away, with nothing shut for very long at all, even on the day it passes close.


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## MikeG. (30 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":3fokjuf3 said:


> MikeG.":3fokjuf3 said:
> 
> 
> > flying haggis":3fokjuf3 said:
> ...



No. Your opening post said:



> Just seen coverage of this event in Yorkshire on tv



That event is the the World Championships. The longest race in the World Championships is the Mens Road Race, at 262 km. It's always best to line your facts up properly before you start a rant.


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## thick_mike (30 Sep 2019)

I did a bit of road cycling a couple of years back for fitness. Never rode in a group always solo and never really had many problems with cars as long as I acknowledged their patience when I was difficult to pass. One thing that worried me at first was not really being able to see what was behind me, you could sometimes hear an engine, but often that was covered by wind noise. I bought a bar end mirror similar to this:







It made the world of difference to my awareness of other road users. I really think some sort of rear view mirror should be compulsory along with a cycling helmet.


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## Noel (30 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":1af3fsac said:


> MikeG.":1af3fsac said:
> 
> 
> > flying haggis":1af3fsac said:
> ...



There's generally no problem crossing the road outside the city centre areas. It's not all fenced, there are no marshals every 10 yards with big sticks. I've crossed in such circumstances without issue. Many folk even run along with the riders yelling in their ears. As MikeG mentioned, the men's WC race was 160 odd miles, took 3 hours or so to pass with some time each end of the period, would've no doubt been less if the weather and conditions had been more friendly.
I'm sure the economy in the area got a much needed boost valued in many millions. 
I did smile when you mentioned about cars going all over the road and the wrong way around roundabouts. The roads are closed via road closing orders (quite a new thing in England, which is good news) so normal traffic rules don't apply.

I'm sure FH you've been to some sort of event/s where large numbers are in attendance. It pretty much evens things out.


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## Jacob (30 Sep 2019)

thick_mike":2a4v76tj said:


> I did a bit of road cycling a couple of years back for fitness. Never rode in a group always solo and never really had many problems with cars as long as I acknowledged their patience when I was difficult to pass. One thing that worried me at first was not really being able to see what was behind me, you could sometimes hear an engine, but often that was covered by wind noise. I bought a bar end mirror similar to this:
> 
> 
> 
> It made the world of difference to my awareness of other road users. I really think some sort of rear view mirror should be compulsory along with a cycling helmet.


I've never used a mirror. Obviously a good idea in principle but in general people seem to think they are problematic. Most likely because they can only be small?
Got these opinions from the horses mouth: https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.p ... it=mirrors
Might give it a go one day, but I've got bar end shifters on both bikes and I think there's nowhere else practical to fit them.
Compulsory? Only if there's convincing evidence that they'd stop accidents. I don't think there is, it's never mentioned.


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## flying haggis (30 Sep 2019)

""I did smile when you mentioned about cars going all over the road and the wrong way around roundabouts. The roads are closed via road closing orders (quite a new thing in England, which is good news) so normal traffic rules don't apply.""

well this happened in Norwich during a cycle race and the roads werent closed off but still the support vehicles thought they were gods gift and woe betide anyone who got in there way, some absolutely appalling driving there

https://youtu.be/DZyB73gfcYE


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## MikeG. (30 Sep 2019)

thick_mike":2antw7g0 said:


> ....... I bought a bar end mirror similar to this:
> 
> .........



I have tried those, and other types of mirrors, including helmet mounted mirrors. They all suffer badly from vibrations, albeit those bar-enders were the least affected. The vibrations were so bad that it was impossible to see anything at all in the mirror. Until we get the tarmac sorted out in this country I'm afraid that bike mirrors are going to be a rarity.


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## Jacob (30 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":y580izv8 said:


> ""I did smile when you mentioned about cars going all over the road and the wrong way around roundabouts. The roads are closed via road closing orders (quite a new thing in England, which is good news) so normal traffic rules don't apply.""
> 
> well this happened in Norwich during a cycle race and the roads werent closed off but still the support vehicles thought they were gods gift and woe betide anyone who got in there way, some absolutely appalling driving there
> 
> https://youtu.be/DZyB73gfcYE


Actually the lanes were closed off but something went wrong with the marshalling! Should have been a chap with a pointer, cones etc. etc. A useful learning experience!


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## thick_mike (30 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":2y67ur1w said:


> thick_mike":2y67ur1w said:
> 
> 
> > ....... I bought a bar end mirror similar to this:
> ...



I really liked the mirror I got, maybe I just dropped lucky. It’s just sensible being aware of what’s around you. You’re not going to be able to read a number plate in it, but at least you know when you’ve got an artic up your backside.


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## MikeG. (30 Sep 2019)

Yeah, there's a guy at my cycle club who swears by his mirror. Maybe it's just that carbon fibre transmits more vibrations, I dunno. Frankly, just about the first skill you learn after not-falling-off is how to safely look behind you, so although my neck makes this harder and harder it's still the primary way of seeing which nutcase behind you wants to kill you.


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## Noel (30 Sep 2019)

flying haggis":1nies0r4 said:


> ""I did smile when you mentioned about cars going all over the road and the wrong way around roundabouts. The roads are closed via road closing orders (quite a new thing in England, which is good news) so normal traffic rules don't apply.""
> 
> well this happened in Norwich during a cycle race and the roads werent closed off but still the support vehicles thought they were gods gift and woe betide anyone who got in there way, some absolutely appalling driving there
> 
> https://youtu.be/DZyB73gfcYE



No road closures and poor marshalling by police/organisers but, what were they supposed to do? The roundabout was closed on the other side and the cars did not exactly handbrake at 60 and burn tyres all the way to the correct exit route. I didn't see any appalling driving in your video, all very calm and safe by experienced drivers. Sorry, doesn't really support your earlier comments.
I was at a stage of the Giro a few years ago. Riders approached the roundabout we were standing at, riders went both ways as did the supports vehicles, no big deal, nobody even mentioned it or raised an eyebrow. Watch any major race or any of the classics, I think you'll learn a lot.


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## Noel (30 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":13ti67oz said:


> Yeah, there's a guy at my cycle club who swears by his mirror. Maybe it's just that carbon fibre transmits more vibrations, I dunno. Frankly, just about the first skill you learn after not-falling-off is how to safely look behind you, so although my neck makes this harder and harder it's still the primary way of seeing which nutcase behind you wants to kill you.



And use your ears* as well. Most cyclists can "feel" a vehicle is nearhand.
EVs are going to be a problem.


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## John Brown (30 Sep 2019)

I have a bar end mirror. I wouldn't want to be without it. I could probably just about turn my head ti see behind, but I don't when driving a car (except to glance over my shoulder). Vibrations do not seem to beva problem on my old Dawes Countryman being ridden at 12MPH.


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## thick_mike (30 Sep 2019)

Noel":okw0pjbs said:


> MikeG.":okw0pjbs said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, there's a guy at my cycle club who swears by his mirror. Maybe it's just that carbon fibre transmits more vibrations, I dunno. Frankly, just about the first skill you learn after not-falling-off is how to safely look behind you, so although my neck makes this harder and harder it's still the primary way of seeing which nutcase behind you wants to kill you.
> ...



I usually cycle on roads where I’m passed by a car every ten minutes or so, single carriageway country backroads. I often can’t hear cars hanging back 20m or so due to wind noise, so the mirror is a godsend. You can see a car 100m or further down the road and act accordingly.


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## Jacob (1 Oct 2019)

thick_mike":7a2h0mhd said:


> Noel":7a2h0mhd said:
> 
> 
> > MikeG.":7a2h0mhd said:
> ...


Have very occasionally found that a car has been very quietly tailing me for a few 100 yards un-noticed, but not so much that I feel the need for a mirror. Main probs on country lanes around here is finding somewhere where you can pull in, or if going up a long hill do you want to pull in at all, as stopping/starting not easy, impossible if there's a lot of traffic. Driver stuck behind you may not appreciate that you have already stopped and started several times!
A bit like the road-works traffic light timing problem - you go through on green but before you are at the other end its changed; traffic is coming the other way and drivers are getting irritated.


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## Lons (1 Oct 2019)

Jacob":1i72owjj said:


> Have very occasionally found that a car has been very quietly tailing me for a few 100 yards un-noticed



Wasn't me Jacob, honest :lol: Hope you didn't feel threatened. :wink:


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## Jacob (1 Oct 2019)

Lons":3depsvdr said:


> Jacob":3depsvdr said:
> 
> 
> > Have very occasionally found that a car has been very quietly tailing me for a few 100 yards un-noticed
> ...


Don't suppose so but you do see a lot of doddery old fools driving around in large OAPmobiles!
I'd ban them all!


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## Lons (1 Oct 2019)

Jacob":25k99bhe said:


> Lons":25k99bhe said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":25k99bhe said:
> ...


Wasn't driving the motorhome around the narrow roads Jacob, parked it on a site near Buxton and used the little car I bought for the purpose as my SUV is too heavy to tow. The little car might be small but has a very loud horn, enough to make a doddery old cyclist soil his lycra. :lol: 

You of course would quickly recognise doddery old drivers, takes one to know one. :wink:


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## Jacob (1 Oct 2019)

Lons":22gh5cd1 said:


> Jacob":22gh5cd1 said:
> 
> 
> > Lons":22gh5cd1 said:
> ...


That picture struck me as a bit odd. 
Thinking about it - wouldn't it make more sense to have them the other way around with the car towing the van? 
You wouldn't need an engine in the van so it would be cheaper, lighter and much more logical. 
Could call it a Car-a-van or something. Just a thought. Surprised nobody's thought of it before. 8-[


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## Lons (1 Oct 2019)

Nope been there, done that, not as simple as you seem to think, many advantages and disadvantages comparing caravans and motorhomes.
e.g. don't always need to take the car so say we have a few days near Edinburgh, York or many other places can park up and use bus to get into the city, also much quicker to set up on site and pack away so can move much easier to different areas and because it's set up ready to go at home we can decide to go away at an hours notice and also tend to use it more in the colder months.

A caravan with similar space and facilities is heavy and needs a sizeable towcar so when towing my previous twin wheel with my GLC I got less mpg than I do towing a citi car with the motorhome and then travelling around the area in the car use twice as much fuel. With the motorhome and a high driving position the journey is also more relaxing and the little car on the back is so insignificant I fitted an extra rear camera for peace of mind. You do need a C1 licence if over 3500kg of course.


> so it would be cheaper, lighter and much more logical.


Can be but often isn't. In this case because it is a quality vehicle is was expensive but the combined cost of my car and previous caravan was actually more not including the extras I needed for the van. 
I do still have the car of course but wouldn't have bought one as powerful, heavy and maybe not 4wd.
You pays your money and takes your choice, pros and cons with both and down to circumstances and very much personal preference.

I'm assuming, please correct me if not the case, that you have little or no personal experience when it comes to touring caravans or motorhomes so I'll take your comment at face value.

PS 
In case you might think I'm telling porkies ( as if you would :wink: ) here is a pic of my van in 2018 in Galloway.


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## transatlantic (1 Oct 2019)

My brother has recently joined the caravan w**ker club. He's only 35. So sad  ... :roll: :lol:  

On the plus side, you can "drive" it by remote control, .... albeit verrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly. Something to do with correcting it when you park up.


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## Jacob (1 Oct 2019)

transatlantic":61iqsx9d said:


> My brother has recently joined the caravan w**ker club. He's only 35. So sad  ... :roll: :lol:
> 
> On the plus side, you can "drive" it by remote control, .... albeit verrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly. Something to do with correcting it when you park up.


A lot of people have them for a bit then change their minds. Biggest prob (after the price :roll: :roll: ) is they get set up on a campsite or wherever and find they can't just whip off to the shop/pub/local tourist attraction etc. without decamping. Hence the array of bikes/motor-bikes/towed vehicles attached. Big ones even have ramps and spaces inside for a smart car!
They do act as mobile lavs though, for the aged and incontinent!


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## Lons (1 Oct 2019)

Jacob":2lkmey3j said:


> A lot of people have them for a bit then change their minds. Biggest prob (after the price :roll: :roll: ) is they get set up on a campsite or wherever and find they can't just whip off to the shop/pub/local tourist attraction etc. without decamping. Hence the array of bikes/motor-bikes/towed vehicles attached. Big ones even have ramps and spaces inside for a smart car!



I guess you've been googling again. :lol: :lol: :lol:



> They do act as mobile lavs though, for the aged and incontinent!



You should maybe get one then as you're old man time, or do you have "Billy Connolly pants held in by your bicycle clips. :wink:


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## Jacob (1 Oct 2019)

Cycle clips? Nah it's all body hugging stretch lycra nowadays! Very sexy.


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## Lons (2 Oct 2019)

Jacob":2r56ckdd said:


> Cycle clips? Nah it's all body hugging stretch lycra nowadays! Very sexy.



Yeah that's why you may not need a mobile bog, just p*** in your pants and blows up like a ballon - e.g. " Billy Connolly pants".

Sexy? hmmm. wizzened old bald headed, bearded git in lycra who clearly doesn't own a mirror.


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## AJB Temple (2 Oct 2019)

Agree with most here. The pro cycling is an absolute spectacle and well worth taking the trouble to watch in person. Piffling inconvenience for a short period. Towns and villages that host the route by and large seem to love it! There will always be the odd naysayer.


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## Lons (2 Oct 2019)

AJB Temple":35kohnlm said:


> Agree with most here. The pro cycling is an absolute spectacle and well worth taking the trouble to watch in person. Piffling inconvenience for a short period. Towns and villages that host the route by and large seem to love it! There will always be the odd naysayer.



Passed through my local market town on the way south from the borders and was fairly well attended by spectators. A couple of roads suffered rolling closures but I didn't hear too many complaints.
Not so sure it brought much revenue to the town though.


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

Useful driver info and explanations here:
here


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## paulrbarnard (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Useful driver info and explanations here:
> here



Wow you need a better search engine. Took you over two years to find that one.


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> Wow you need a better search engine. Took you over two years to find that one.


I searched "cycling abreast" and this one came up first. There are others, its a recurrent theme!


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## Spectric (26 Jan 2022)

What I find really funny are the people who have had a really bad mid life crisis and have turned to cycling in bright pink lycra.



Jacob said:


> I searched "cycling abreast" and this one came up first.



Is that where the older female cyclist in lycra has tucked the mammary glands under her armpits so they now face the motorist behind!!


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

Spectric said:


> What I find really funny are the people who have had a really bad mid life crisis and have turned to cycling in bright pink lycra.



Better than giving up and becoming a pathetic geriatric burden! Anyway most of them will have been cycling most of their lives. 
The can't win, if they don't wear bright colours they get accused of "stealth cycling" and dangerous camouflage.
Do I detect a hint of envy - have you never had a bike of your own or think you are now too old?


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## doctor Bob (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Better than giving up and becoming a pathetic geriatric burden! Anyway most of them will have been cycling most of their lives.
> The can't win, if they don't wear bright colours they get accused of "stealth cycling" and dangerous camouflage.
> Do I detect a hint of envy - have you never had a bike of your own or think you are now too old?



Why do you respond like this, you come across as a very angry bitter man, it's getting worse. You constantly try and belittle people. Why not try and have some compassion for your fellow man, being sarcastic and twisting posts shows a lack of moral well being. I suspect you do not behave in this manner in real life, be yourself, stop getting fulfilment from being rude and arrogant on the internet, it's not good for you and you get worse year on year.
Should it bother me, NO.
Does it bother me, Yes, I'm quite concerned you actually have something wrong with you.


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Why do you respond like this, you come across as a very angry bitter man, it's getting worse. You constantly try and belittle people. Why not try and have some compassion for your fellow man, being sarcastic and twisting posts shows a lack of moral well being. I suspect you do not behave in this manner in real life, be yourself, stop getting fulfilment from being rude and arrogant on the internet, it's not good for you and you get worse year on year.
> Should it bother me, NO.
> Does it bother me, Yes, I'm quite concerned you actually have something wrong with you.


You obviously didn't read the previous post where Spectric was accusing pink clad lady cyclists of having "mid life crises". I was replying in the same spirit.
In fact I know lots of older cyclists and non of them seem to be having crises of any sort and are actually enjoying life, believe it or not!
You need to lighten up a bit, put some pink lycra on and get on your bike!


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## D_W (26 Jan 2022)

MikeG. said:


> I offer anyone here the challenge of hopping on their bike and trying to ride on the flat at 30mph. Even for 1 second. Then imagine averaging 30 mph for 120+ miles, as they recently did in La Vuelta.



I rode a lot when I was younger. Still have my bike, an older specialized with two front rings and a big crank for a leisure rider - the fastest I ever got it with some downhill grade (not enough to drift faster than pedaling, but some help) as 31 miles an hour. A strong ride on a flat for 45 minutes was more like a 23 mile an hour pace. 

When those guys are running through terrain averaging what...27 miles an hour for hours, it's crazy. 

at about 205 pounds now, I can't even ride my bike (too fat and annoying when legs bump belly in drop position).


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## D_W (26 Jan 2022)

nabbed by a necro poster!!


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## D_W (26 Jan 2022)

Spectric said:


> What I find really funny are the people who have had a really bad mid life crisis and have turned to cycling in bright pink lycra.



Can't say much about the pink, but from my earlier days, I can say for sure if you're on a road bike, you don't want any clothes that will catch air (pull your shorts up to your waist on the outside - that's what it'll feel like riding - now flap them really really fast at the same time while they're up. 

Same with a t-shirt. When you're between something like 18 and 25 miles an hour on a typical ride, the spandex stuff is just to keep from having clothes that move or come up and to keep them from flapping. 

BTDT after getting a road bike - had the "bike shorts" and shirt within days. Until you get used them, they're a little embarrassing to walk around in, though.


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## doctor Bob (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> You obviously didn't read the previous post where Spectric was accusing pink clad lady cyclists of having "mid life crises". I was replying in the same spirit.
> In fact I know lots of older cyclists and non of them seem to be having crises of any sort and are actually enjoying life, believe it or not!
> You need to lighten up a bit, put some pink lycra on and get on your bike!



Thank you, I will take your point on board.

Avoidance, denial and deflection, as I said classic symptoms. I really feel for you and those close to you. I suspect you make their life unbearable if you really do act like this in real life.
I'm comfortable in lycra, running for me, lycra bottoms (sometimes), shorts usually plus baggy top.


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## clogs (26 Jan 2022)

in France we used to live a few kilometers from the Tour De/Fr......
what a nightmare.....we locked our gates and stayed on the farm for a week before and after.....
Then after that u get all the Wannabe idiots wizzing about.....
I was not the only one that hated it, even the Fr locals were peed off....
but supose it's good for the local trades......


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## Terry - Somerset (26 Jan 2022)

Tolerance is in short supply.

I have no real interest in fast road cycling (lycra, head down), some cyclists seem arrogant in a self righteous belief they should have priority. Some don't recognise that when car meets flesh, car normally wins.

After 40 years off a bike I had cause to buy one (step through, electric). Spent 5 weeks in a coma (fine now) and banned from driving for at least 6 months. Needed to get around town and seemed a sensible solution. Still feel somewhat unsteady but a useful toy.

However I fully support cyclists in a professional race. Clubs out for a ride are OK providing they recognise motorists need to pass - 40 bikes in a two abreast stream is not good behaviour.

Some folk like pets, cricket, football, tennis, running, barbeques, knitting etc etc. Some don't. Tolerance means accepting the right of others to do that in which you may have no interest. Equally afficionados should recognise an obligation not to unreasonably inconvenience others.

TdF - like many sports top level seems dominated by money, drugs and tantrums. But as it disrupts other activities for just a day - let those who want enjoy it..


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## Spectric (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Do I detect a hint of envy - have you never had a bike of your own or think you are now too old?


Used to cycle a lot, but having done a risk assessment and we know we are not even fully safe in a car then cycling without any metalwork around you is suicidal unless you get adrenaline kicks from near death experiences. I do owe my life to cycling though, my parents were in cycling clubs in the fifties and is how they met, Mum in an all girls club in Romford and dad in a mens club in Ilford.



Jacob said:


> You obviously didn't read the previous post where Spectric was accusing pink clad lady cyclists of having "mid life crises".



I think @doctor Bob did read that previous post because it did not directly mention or accuse pink clad lady cyclists of having "mid life crises". It was in response to your comment on cycling abreast.



clogs said:


> Then after that u get all the Wannabe idiots wizzing about.....


Same here, any major cycling event and they all turn up and cause mayhem not to mention keeping what few paramedic's there are very busy. Perhaps if they realised the nearest major specialist hospital was over seventy miles away then they might think twice.


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> ...... Clubs out for a ride are OK providing they recognise motorists need to pass - 40 bikes in a two abreast stream is not good behaviour.
> .......


The point of my post was to pass on the advice that cycling in a bunch is actually better for cyclists and for vehicles too -it makes overtaking easier, even if that is counter intuitive!
I doubt you'd ever see 40 @ 2 abreast* but even if you did this could be easier to overtake than 40 stretched out down the road in a single line.
Here it is again, click on the graphic:


* I guess you might see 40 together when a big group is just setting off but they tend to separate quite soon into smaller groups


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

I believe riding in a bunch of more than two riders is actually illegal. With the new law coming into effect where we need to leave 1.5m when travelling at under 30 miles an hour and 2m above 30 miles an hour it will make it impossible to pass on most country roads. I for one will be calling the police to report riding without due care and attention to other road users when they are causing a traffic snarl up, when they don’t pull over and stop to allow traffic to pass (like any other road user is required to do such as tractors) I’m going to be interested in how quickly if at all the police respond. They do seem to be totally tolerant of bikes illegally riding on pavements, going through red lights, grabbing hold of moving vehicles for a tow, weaving through traffic, not signalling, riding without lights at night, going around roundabouts the wrong way, riding on the wrong side of the road to mention but a few of the now common habits of cyclists particularly in towns and cities. However, we must not say anything to that might upset the very fragile egos the cyclists seem to have, so I apologise whole heartedly to all I have offended by asking them to abide by the same set of rules every other road user is expected to abide by.


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## paulrbarnard (26 Jan 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> After 40 years off a bike I had cause to buy one (step through, electric). Spent 5 weeks in a coma (fine now) and banned from driving for at least 6 months.


That sounds pretty terrible but why on earth did you get a ban?


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## paulrbarnard (26 Jan 2022)

deema said:


> I believe riding in a bunch of more than two riders is actually illegal. With the new law coming into effect where we need to leave 1.5m when travelling at under 30 miles an hour and 2m above 30 miles an hour it will make it impossible to pass on most country roads. I for one will be calling the police to report riding without due care and attention to other road users when they are causing a traffic snarl up, when they don’t pull over and stop to allow traffic to pass (like any other road user is required to do such as tractors) I’m going to be interested in how quickly if at all the police respond. They do seem to be totally tolerant of bikes illegally riding on pavements, going through red lights, grabbing hold of moving vehicles for a tow, weaving through traffic, not signalling, riding without lights at night, going around roundabouts the wrong way, riding on the wrong side of the road to mention but a few of the now common habits of cyclists particularly in towns and cities. However, we must not say anything to that might upset the very fragile egos the cyclists seem to have, so I apologise whole heartedly to all I have offended by asking them to abide by the same set of rules every other road user is expected to abide by.


It is illegal to ride more than 2 abreast. It is perfectly legal to ride with more than two in a group.
Also the highway code indicates that riders SHOULD ride in single file on busy or narrow roads or when going around corners. The SHOULD does not make it illegal to those things.


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## D_W (26 Jan 2022)

in the city here, riders generally don't follow traffic laws that well, and at the same time, other drivers aren't very considerate to them (as in, unsafe - opening doors, pinching riders, honking horns). 

The city in turn made bike lanes on several of the roads that are both off limits to drivers and (in some cases) physically separated by things that you can run over (like permanent vertical road cones) and probably have to pay to replace. 

When I moved here, I learned of the bike messengers:
* single speed fixies or with regular hubs (but no multi-gear cassettes)
* rail thin folks, ride in traffic without regard for themselves at all (you eventually learn to drive and ignore them - they are pros and already know what dumb or smart things you could do , you won't hit them, they're a step ahead of you mentally)
* averse to taking showers - which you find out when you have to sign for a package

Total subculture, I thought it was interesting (poor pay), though. 

They seem to have disappeared thanks to digital transmission of documents and the elimination of physical wet signature requirements on a lot of regulatory compliance stuff. 

When I was riding recreationally, I lived near several loops that were heavy bike and run traffic and little in terms of cars. It was a real luxury (large loop was 5 miles with designated bike and pedestrian space - never endangered by cars, but sometimes issues with peds feeling special and walking opposite side of the road with headphones on and in the bike lanes "ON YOUR LEFT" often heard only when close enough to yell over what they were listening to, and not a non-zero chance that they would jump to the left when they finally heard you). Biking stopped when I didn't live close enough to the loop to ride on it. 

A couple of rides outside of designated bike areas (including rural, in one case getting brushed by a passing car mirror) and the death of a coworker's relative and another acquaintance - one due to a drunk driver mid-day, and the other an elderly driver - cured me of the idea of just riding anywhere.


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## Terry - Somerset (26 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> That sounds pretty terrible but why on earth did you get a ban?


Adrenal failure and collapse for which I now take daily meds. As it caused a neurological malfunction the docs said no driving in case of a repeat - not dissimilar to their "advice" for stroke, epilepsy etc.

I take the meds and no problems for 3 years - in fact feel better than the last two decades!


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## paulrbarnard (26 Jan 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Adrenal failure and collapse for which I now take daily meds. As it caused a neurological malfunction the docs said no driving in case of a repeat - not dissimilar to their "advice" for stroke, epilepsy etc.
> 
> I take the meds and no problems for 3 years - in fact feel better than the last two decades!


Wow that sucks. Great that you are better than ever. That's a good side effect tio get from medication.

In a similar fashion I got back in to cycling in my late 30's after fainting in the bath. I got a medical driving ban which left me cycling to work (40 mile round trip) for over a year. I had never fainted before or since.


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## Droogs (26 Jan 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Tolerance is in short supply.
> 
> I have no real interest in fast road cycling (lycra, head down), some cyclists seem arrogant in a self righteous belief they should have priority. Some don't recognise that when car meets flesh, car normally wins.



As does the Highway code with *you must give priority to cyclists and pedestrians* with the changes introduced on Monday. Im in the middle of studying for my class1 theory and was just given revised precis for the test


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

deema said:


> I believe riding in a bunch of more than two riders is actually illegal. ......


No it isn't.
You _should _not ride more than 2 abreast but this is not you _must_ not. It's advisory.
There are occasions when it could be OK, wide empty roads etc, but by and large nobody does it anyway.





Why the Highway Code should protect riding two abreast | Cycling UK


Over the past few months, we’ve been exploring many of the new proposals for a revised Highway Code which, if adopted, could help make cycling safer and – just as importantly – make cycling feel safer. We’ve highlighted why a ‘hierarchy of responsibility’ would help put the greatest...




www.cyclinguk.org




.


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## thetyreman (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> No it isn't.



+1 it isn't


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## Ozi (26 Jan 2022)

As both a cyclist and a motorist I have noticed that which ever form of transport I am using those using the other immediately turn into a complete set of bottom openings. Here's hoping but without much optimism my fellow cyclists remember that with increased writes come increased responsibilitys


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## paulrbarnard (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> No it isn't.
> You _should _not ride more than 2 abreast but this is not you _must_ not. It's advisory.
> There are occasions when it could be OK, wide empty roads etc, but by and large nobody does it anyway.
> 
> ...


The wording has changed. I believe it now says “cyclist can ride two abreast.” That might supersede the previous wording and disallow riding three of more abreast.


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

The new laws in the UK are I fear a complete opportunity for yet more insurance scams. It’s well know for cars to pull in front of other vehicles and stop suddenly, or similar moves at roundabouts causing rear end shunt claims with the inevitable whip lash. With the new laws, I am certain we are going to see a rise of idiots jumping onto cars as they turn into roads, or other such stupidity claiming they were run ove and that the vehicle didn’t give way. I only hope that sense prevails and we get a revision in the wording. A dash and rear cam is now I believe an absolute necessity for any motorised vehicle.


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> No it isn't.
> You _should _not ride more than 2 abreast but this is not you _must_ not. It's advisory.
> There are occasions when it could be OK, wide empty roads etc, but by and large nobody does it anyway.
> 
> ...



I believe the Highway Code allows and in fact promoted two abreast cycling as it (used to) cause less disruption for cars getting past / makes cyclists more obvious to road users. A very practical alteration that was made some time ago. However, all road users are required to use the roads with due regard to other road users, and as a consequence, riding two or more abreast, or a number of cyclists bunched together on narrow roads is both a must not, and also falls, as I understand it, into the category of failure to take due care and attention.

The new rules, mean that on most minor Country roads, passing a single cyclist positioned correctly near the inside (where they must move to when approached by a fast moving vehicle, otherwise a cyclist should cycle in the middle of the carriageway); allowing 1.5m will be impossible. As a consequnce, cyclists must pull in / stop allowing faster moving traffic to pass and avoiding undue delays on the highway.


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## paulrbarnard (26 Jan 2022)

deema said:


> The new rules, mean that on most minor Country roads, passing a single cyclist positioned correctly near the inside (where they must move to when approached by a fast moving vehicle, otherwise a cyclist should cycle in the middle of the carriageway); allowing 1.5m will be impossible. As a consequnce, cyclists must pull in / stop allowing faster moving traffic to pass and avoiding undue delays on the highway.


I don’t agree with that interpretation. There is no requirement for anyone to pull in to let a faster moving vehicle pass. Speed limits are limits not targets so you have no right to expect to travel at a specific minimum speed. A vehicle travelling at 10mph has every right to do so. There is no specific guidance that slow moving vehicles must pull in to let other vehicles pass. Check 169 which is the closest that suggests slow moving vehicles can pull in if they are causing long tail backs, but no requirement to do so.


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

Thanks Paul, I believe it says, if I’ve copied and pasted it correctly. 
Rule 169 of the Highway Code states that motorists should not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if they are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. It informs drivers to frequently check their mirrors, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.

This applies to cyclists and any other user of the highway. It’s a should not.


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

Careless driving / driving without due care and attention includes, I’ve highlighted the ones that may be applied to cyclists I believe, the list isn’t exhaustive.

In essence, any driving that demonstrates lack of alertness to the dangers of the road, or a disregard for other road users (whether deliberate or not), could fall under this category.

Examples of not paying attention while driving may include:


*Fiddling with the radio or infotainment*
*Setting the sat nav*
*Reading a map (or anything else)*
*Eating or drinking at the wheel*
*Adjusting your seating position*
Allowing yourself to be distracted by passengers in the car
Examples of disregard for other road users may include:
*Driving aggressively*
*Tailgating*
*Overtaking on the left-hand side*
*Lane-hogging*
*Not giving way where appropriate*
*Swerving across lanes*
*Using the wrong lane at a roundabout*

I’m all for cycling, good exercise, environmentally friendly, what I find difficult to accept is any road user behaving appallingly and disregarding the rules because they feel they don’t like them, or aren't aware of them. That for me applies to things people do in what they consider to be their best interests to keep themselves safe. The rules apply to all, and if they arnt correct need to be changed through the proper channels, not by arbitrary applying just those they agree with.
The roads are extremely busy and as a consequence dangerous. I can’t understand the resistance to both mandatory testing of all road users and also for everyone to carry insurance and some form of ID on any type of vehicle using the road. For some reason, there is a huge resistance to bringing this in for cyclists or anything I think that is deemed to travel at under 20 miles an hour.


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

deema said:


> .......
> The roads are extremely busy and as a consequence dangerous. I can’t understand the resistance to both mandatory testing of all road users and also for everyone to carry insurance and some form of ID on any type of vehicle using the road. For some reason, there is a huge resistance to bringing this in for cyclists or anything I think that is deemed to travel at under 20 miles an hour.


Because they do very little damage to anybody or anything, much like pedestrians. Also require very little in the way of infrastructure and maintenance thereof.
The problem is with motor vehicles which now dominates our streets roads and lanes which were never designed for motors and are often inadequate.


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Because they do very little damage to anybody or anything, much like pedestrians. Also require very little in the way of infrastructure and maintenance thereof.
> The problem is with motor vehicles which now dominates our streets roads and lanes which were never designed for motors and are often inadequate.



That’s an interesting perspective Jacob, but one I don’t feel is supported by the data. The link is to the latest Government statistics




__





Reported road casualties Great Britain: road user risk, 2020 data







www.gov.uk





The first graph shows that cyclist do indeed cause fatalities, in 2020, a total of 5.






Now some might say that’s not many, or small compared to other road users. Firstly any death is a huge tragedy, but at least with motorised road users they are (or should be) insured to compensate those they harm.
Looking at a more sight full statistic the fatalities per miles of travel.





What we see is that cyclists are almost as dangerous as cars and LGVs. If we use the argument that cyclist cause less harm, it’s close to where we should also say that cars and LGV don’t need number plates and insurance for the same reason cyclists don’t. The trend for cyclist causing deaths is one thats increasing.


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

I think it’s also interesting to see from the same report who is getting killed / seriously injured (KSI) on cycles.
Basically the most effective way of reducing cycling accidents (a massive 46% of all deaths) would be to stop men aged between 30 and 60 from cycling! It’s probably not surprising men have a higher rate of accidents due to their trait of being higher risk takers, but the age profile is what surprised me the most.

The data suggests that assuming the risk posed by traffic is the same for cyclists is the same, that it is the behaviour of men aged between 30 and 60 that accounts for the most fatalities. This won’t I don’t believe be addressed by changing the rules of the road, it’s something about the attitude / behaviour of men when cycling that’s the problem. This is what needs addressing.


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## Jameshow (26 Jan 2022)

Loop


deema said:


> I think it’s also interesting to see from the same report who is getting killed / seriously injured (KSI) on cycles.
> Basically the most effective way of reducing cycling accidents (a massive 46% of all deaths) would be to stop men aged between 30 and 60 from cycling! It’s probably not surprising men have a higher rate of accidents due to their trait of being higher risk takers, but the age profile is what surprised me the most.
> 
> The data suggests that assuming the risk posed by traffic is the same for cyclists is the same, that it is the behaviour of men aged between 30 and 60 that accounts for the most fatalities. This won’t I don’t believe be addressed by changing the rules of the road, it’s something about the attitude / behaviour of men when cycling that’s the problem. This is what needs addressing.
> View attachment 127992


Glad I didn't go out on my bike tonight!! 

Would be interested to see number of injuries due to cycling Vs home workshops....! 

Probably best to stay in the sofa!


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

deema said:


> ...........
> What we see is that cyclists are almost as dangerous as cars and LGVs. .....


Without looking at the details something tells me this conclusion is deeply flawed!


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Without looking at the details something tells me this conclusion is deeply flawed!


The devil is in the detail, and as uncomfortable as it is, it’s better to read around a subject, check facts rather than just expect reality to mirror preconceived perspectives.


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Loop
> 
> Glad I didn't go out on my bike tonight!!
> 
> ...



Now that is risky! According to the British medical Journal a sedentary life led to 69,276 deaths in 2016/7, that’s a lot more than KSI cycling!! I
The deadly sofa death!




__





Direct healthcare costs of sedentary behaviour in the UK | Journal of Epidemiology & Community Health






jech.bmj.com


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

deema said:


> The devil is in the detail, and as uncomfortable as it is, it’s better to read around a subject, check facts rather than just expect reality to mirror preconceived perspectives.


By your analysis how would the danger of walking rate as compared to cycling?


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## deema (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> By your analysis how would the danger of walking rate as compared to cycling?


Ther are no recorded instances of walkers causing death to others by virtue of walking dangerously. It’s in the published stats, by its absence.


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## doctor Bob (26 Jan 2022)

Running and rowing, much safer and much harder, plus people tend not to hate you.


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## D_W (26 Jan 2022)

I'm not sure about harder - but rowing around here is pretty difficult without driving or using a machine (driving to the rivers, that is - used to be a lot of recreational rowing, but a cut back on corporate team events seems to have trimmed the number of recreational rowers going in the morning). 

You can make road cycling just bonkers if you're willing to put on a heart meter and go beyond where you can running in terms of exhaustion because you don't have to hold your weight up. 

Running feels less resistive and more pounding and damaging (though road biking is pretty hard on the tubes between your legs going...you know). 

It's no big deal to get on a road bike and turn up the cadence and just spend yourself fast. I would wear a heart monitor and I could tell you at the time when my heart was getting near 200bpm because that's where I started feeling pain. Not necessarily tightness (didn't feel dangerous), just a pain coming from the heart. 

Not familiar with the longer rides that people do at great distances, though - generally stock to fast rides of 20 miles or so. Running 5 miles (once around our loop) was arduous and pounding. biking was just exhausting and hard to know if you went too far unless you got off of the bike and couldn't stand.


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## D_W (26 Jan 2022)

side comment on the road races -obviously no tour de france in the US. We did have a "tour de trump" and then another sponsor after that. I remember that because my elementary school was along the route for the tour de trump and at the time, greg lemond was sort of a celebrity due to TDF wins. 

That said, the school was long the route, but not somewhere a crowd would gather. The peloton must've passed us, because we never saw it and the teachers mentioned it would be coming but did nothing to alert each other so the kids could see the group go by. 

I'm guessing if you live in a rural area for most of these races, the riders go by and there's not a whole lot of other fanfare unless you get the peloton and support vehicles all at once?

(chuckle at the comment above about the environmental impact of the race, too - professional races aren't really about anything other than the competition. It's probably not accurate to say they're about health and fitness, either - I doubt the TDF style torture and some of the training are good for the riders. Even without doping).


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## doctor Bob (26 Jan 2022)

I am a bit of a pussy cat as during winter I run on a home treadmill with a TV. Same with rowing, concept 2, however rowing is taking second place as it's more f-------g painful every year.


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## Jameshow (26 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> I'm not sure about harder - but rowing around here is pretty difficult without driving or using a machine (driving to the rivers, that is - used to be a lot of recreational rowing, but a cut back on corporate team events seems to have trimmed the number of recreational rowers going in the morning).
> 
> You can make road cycling just bonkers if you're willing to put on a heart meter and go beyond where you can running in terms of exhaustion because you don't have to hold your weight up.
> 
> ...



I've done many 100 mile rides and they feel about the same as a marathon 26miles. 

After both when cycled/run at chat feel like your going to be sick / collapse!! 

However when I did my lejog I did 8 days at about 100 miles a day longest 160 and never felt that tired.


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Running and rowing, much safer and much harder, plus people tend not to hate you.


Yebbut who gives a F about sad people who hate cyclists?


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## doctor Bob (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yebbut who gives an F about sad people who hate cyclists?



Well you seem to get worked up by the haters, so I guess the answer is, you.

I quite like them on their own or with a friend, in groups they seem to go rogue and a bit puffy chested but I guess the larger the group the bigger the pinapples grow.

I absolutely love modern bike shapes, unbelievably cool. You still on one of those new fangled penny farthings Jacob?


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## paulrbarnard (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Without looking at the details something tells me this conclusion is deeply flawed!


It is because it’s based on miles traveled.


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I've done many 100 mile rides and they feel about the same as a marathon 26miles.
> 
> After both when cycled/run at chat feel like your going to be sick / collapse!!
> 
> However when I did my lejog I did 8 days at about 100 miles a day longest 160 and never felt that tired.


My longest day LEJOG was the last one, 100 miles - Lairg to JoG, but was with full camping gear on a heavy bike! Averaged 75 per day, one day off when spoke broke.
Started running last year but arthritis stopped it. New hip next Monday if nothing intervenes, haven't been on my bike since May - can't get leg over.


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Well you seem to get worked up by the haters, so I guess the answer is, you.
> ....


No I just keep trying to explain things to them in a friendly way!


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## doctor Bob (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> No I just keep trying to explain things to them in a friendly way!



Lot of it reading back (from page 1) is typical sarcastic shitee, but maybe that is your friendly way, very hard to tell with you these days. Maybe you aren't even aware of what you are doing.


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## D_W (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> My longest day LEJOG was the last one, 100 miles - Lairg to JoG, but was with full camping gear on a heavy bike! Averaged 75 per day, one day off when spoke broke.
> Started running last year but arthritis stopped it. New hip next Monday if nothing intervenes, haven't been on my bike since May - can't get leg over.



I know no avid runners who haven't been to the doctor for some reason (foot problems, shin problems, knee problems). 

I also know no cyclists who have been to the doctor for some reason (aforementioned two dead folks aside, no doctor was needed).


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Lot of it reading back (from page 1) is typical sarcastic shitee, but maybe that is your friendly way, very hard to tell with you these days. Maybe you aren't even aware of what you are doing.


Oh yes it was quite funny I thought. I am entitled to answer back just like everybody else!

n.b. your own posts always seem to be the most angry and abusive of all, in this thread as in others. You seem unaware of this. I'm just clicking the ignore button, in case you start winding yourself up again. TTFN!


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## Jacob (26 Jan 2022)

deema said:


> The devil is in the detail, and as uncomfortable as it is, it’s better to read around a subject, check facts rather than just expect reality to mirror preconceived perspectives.


Yes but there are lots of cyclists around here of all ages shapes and sizes. Do you really think it would only be slightly more dangerous if they were all driving HGVs instead?


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## doctor Bob (26 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Oh yes it was quite funny I thought. I am entitled to answer back just like everybody else!
> 
> n.b. your own posts always seem to be the most angry and abusive of all, in this thread as in others. You seem unaware of this. I'm just clicking the ignore button, in case you start winding yourself up again. TTFN!



Another attempt at deflection, it's classic, "No your the angry one not me". may I suggest you read your posts and do a point score for say each sarcastic or rude post on the forum, it may give you a better understanding of your lack of awareness of being nasty and spiteful. Maybe go through your past weeks postings and give them some thought as to why you feel the need to be so rude, arrogant and pig headed.
Narcissists, tend to hide from the truth. Yet another symptom Jacob. Carry on being spiteful, sarcastic, belittling, it's like a drug to boost your ego, very difficult to change and impossible to take a good hard look at yourself.
I am posting against all your thread responses because I personally am sick and tired of it. This place can be really friendly and informative, there is no need to be mean, nasty and horrible.

PS. you have never used the ignore button in your life, you used to say that to some other punters but then respond, now you are either internet telepathic or of dubious character. Mind you it's a great way of not facing the truth I suppose.


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## TRITON (27 Jan 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> Agree with most here. The pro cycling is an absolute spectacle and well worth taking the trouble to watch in person. Piffling inconvenience for a short period. Towns and villages that host the route by and large seem to love it! There will always be the odd naysayer.


I watched them from the tour of Britain when it came through Glasgow. The weather was hammering it down and they came through Glasgow green and some of the roads there are still cobbled. Wet cobbles are the devils roadway, but the pros came through and i didnt see any come off. I cycled in before the rain came on and got totally soaked standing watching, but it was worth it as it is indeed a spectacle

Just seen the thread, disappointed with the usual suspects arguing the toss.




Jacob said:


> Cycle clips? Nah it's all body hugging stretch lycra nowadays! Very sexy.


Er....


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## Jameshow (27 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> My longest day LEJOG was the last one, 100 miles - Lairg to JoG, but was with full camping gear on a heavy bike! Averaged 75 per day, one day off when spoke broke.
> Started running last year but arthritis stopped it. New hip next Monday if nothing intervenes, haven't been on my bike since May - can't get leg over.


Hope it goes well Jacob. 

Cheers James


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## Delwood (27 Jan 2022)

clogs said:


> in France we used to live a few kilometers from the Tour De/Fr......
> what a nightmare.....we locked our gates and stayed on the farm for a week before and after.....
> Then after that u get all the Wannabe idiots wizzing about.....
> I was not the only one that hated it, even the Fr locals were peed off....
> but supose it's good for the local trades......


As the Tour route changes every year it would be quite difficult to live a few kilometers from the TdF, unless you lived on the Champs d'elysee!


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## Jameshow (27 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> I watched them from the tour of Britain when it came through Glasgow. The weather was hammering it down and they came through Glasgow green and some of the roads there are still cobbled. Wet cobbles are the devils roadway, but the pros came through and i didnt see any come off. I cycled in before the rain came on and got totally soaked standing watching, but it was worth it as it is indeed a spectacle
> 
> Just seen the thread, disappointed with the usual suspects arguing the toss.
> 
> ...


I watched the world's in Harrogate it was pissing it down all day. Thankfully the village hall was open for tea coffee and cake and a TV so we ran to and from the road side to the hall each lap!!
Great fun!


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## doctor Bob (27 Jan 2022)

Having watched an open race, good amateurs and pro's, it's remarkable the step up to pro level, they just flew past.


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## TRITON (27 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I watched the world's in Harrogate it was pissing it down all day. Thankfully the village hall was open for tea coffee and cake and a TV so we rang to and from the road side to the hall each lap!!
> Great fun!


Lucky you. I got to stand in the rain, and it was bloody windy too, and a cold icy wind at that. 
Then I had to cycle home soaking wet. Damn near went hypothermic


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## sploo (27 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I watched the world's in Harrogate it was pissing it down all day. Thankfully the village hall was open for tea coffee and cake and a TV so we rang to and from the road side to the hall each lap!!
> Great fun!


I was riding through it on that day (definitely as a fat bloke amateur not a pro). Took me about 3 days to dry out afterwards.

As for lycra; the critical thing is that if you're the one wearing it, you're not the one that's having to look at it. Especially when you look like 200lbs of raw sausage meat stuffed into a bin bag.


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## Spectric (27 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Without looking at the details something tells me this conclusion is deeply flawed!


If only on the basis of mass, cars and vans being heavier will always do more damage than a cyclist no mater what speed the bike is doing.



deema said:


> Ther are no recorded instances of walkers causing death to others by virtue of walking dangerously.


But on the other hand cyclist using pedestrian footpaths are a real hazard to walkers, especially those on mountain bikes in national parks.


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## doctor Bob (27 Jan 2022)

When a cyclist goes through a red light and is hit by a car, is it recorded as they were injured by a car?
I would say they were injured by over confidence and bravado, I suspect the cyclists will say the car should have been looking for cyclists and stopped, and the car drivers will say the cyclist shouldn't have gone through a red light.


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## Terry - Somerset (27 Jan 2022)

Cycling is dangerous. Cars get scratched or dented. HGVs may not register a collision. Cyclists break legs, skulls, ribs ....... and sometimes die.

Mountain bikers may hit tree stumps, rocks, etc at speed on steep slopes with predictable outcomes.

Continual stress on a few body components leaves many athletes with failed physiques but fantastic cardio vascular systems. You can live a long time with arthritis and kn-----ckered joints.

However, like free speech, I would defend their right to abuse their bodies and risk their lives.


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## Jacob (27 Jan 2022)

If cycling is nea


Terry - Somerset said:


> Cycling is dangerous. Cars get scratched or dented. HGVs may not register a collision. Cyclists break legs, skulls, ribs ....... and sometimes die.
> 
> Mountain bikers may hit tree stumps, rocks, etc at speed on steep slopes with predictable outcomes.
> 
> ...


Well yes they can be a danger to themselves. Doesn't do to overstate it - it's a very safe pastime.
But if Deema's calcs are correct, that cyclist are nearly as dangerous as HGVs, then you'd expect HGV/bike collisions to produce nearly as many injuries to the drivers as to the cyclists.  Could this be true?


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## Jacob (27 Jan 2022)

Spectric said:


> ....on the other hand cyclist using pedestrian footpaths are a real hazard to walkers, especially those on mountain bikes in national parks.


Works both ways. Generally, common sense and courtesy rule.


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## Spectric (27 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Works both ways. Generally, common sense and courtesy rule.


If the cyclist followed the rules then there would be no issues, they are not allowed on footpaths signed yellow arrows, " for people on foot only " but should be using paths signed with blue arrows where walkers know they may encounter a cyclist and so are aware.









 Rights of Way and access


All about Rights of Way and Access - Useful links, FAQs, reporting problems, and changes to the network.




www.lakedistrict.gov.uk


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## Jacob (27 Jan 2022)

Spectric said:


> If the cyclist followed the rules then there would be no issues, they are not allowed on footpaths signed yellow arrows, " for people on foot only " but should be using paths signed with blue arrows where walkers know they may encounter a cyclist and so are aware.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Works both ways. I've been shouted at by pedestrians who didn't seem to know they were on a shared path, even though I was giving way, ringing a bell etc. I've even been shouted at for ringing a bell "aggressively". There is moronic anti cycling culture around, which isn't reciprocated; cyclists aren't opposed to walkers - 'cyclists only' paths are extremely rare, unlike say in Holland


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## sploo (27 Jan 2022)

The root of the problem is simply that bicycles, cars, and walkers, all have very different speeds and "flow patterns", and really don't mix well when put on the same piece of ground. It's inevitable that, when put together, it just ends up annoying everyone. Doesn't mean that any one group is at fault (though obviously in all groups there are considerate and inconsiderate individuals - just like society in general).


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## Jacob (27 Jan 2022)

Looks pretty sensible! The Highway Code: 8 changes you need to know from 29 January 2022


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## thetyreman (27 Jan 2022)

I get annoyed every time I see a cyclist go through a red light, it's not something I do and it makes other cyclists look bad, even more annoying on a dangerous main road and they often don't have helmets on, lights .e.t.c, does my head in.


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## paulrbarnard (27 Jan 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I get annoyed every time I see a cyclist go through a red light, it's not something I do and it makes other cyclists look bad, even more annoying on a dangerous main road and they often don't have helmets on, lights .e.t.c, does my head in.


There are only two red lights I cycle through. One in Bath and another in Wells. Both are fitted with sensors that are unable to detect a person on a carbon bike. As my route is inevitable on the normally stopped direction I have no option but to jump it. I’ve had nasty looks from pedestrians when I’ve done it. I have contacted both councils and neither will do anything about it.


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## thetyreman (27 Jan 2022)

.


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## thetyreman (27 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> There are only two red lights I cycle through. One in Bath and another in Wells. Both are fitted with sensors that are unable to detect a person on a carbon bike. As my route is inevitable on the normally stopped direction I have no option but to jump it. I’ve had nasty looks from pedestrians when I’ve done it. I have contacted both councils and neither will do anything about it.



that is understandable in that case, I do see a lot of unhelmeted cyclists though with no regard for safety of themselves or others, who definitely do it with no regard for any drivers, pedestrians or other cyclists.


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## Jameshow (27 Jan 2022)

thetyreman said:


> that is understandable in that case, I do see a lot of unhelmeted cyclists though with no regard for safety of themselves or others, who definitely do it with no regard for any drivers, pedestrians or other cyclists.


Do they not sense the thermal heat of your body???


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## paulrbarnard (27 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Do they not sense the thermal heat of your body???


Seems these detect the metal of a car. @thetyreman What has helmets got to do with going through lights?


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## thetyreman (27 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> Seems these detect the metal of a car. @thetyreman What has helmets got to do with going through lights?



nothing, but like I said I just see a lot of cyclists with no helmets, I'm more concerned for their own safety than anything, you would not survive a serious fall without one.


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## GarF (27 Jan 2022)

Debatable. 

Statistically, mandatory helmets for car drivers would yield a greater reduction in head injuries, I am told.


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## TRITON (27 Jan 2022)

When cycling in Europe, how do you tell a local cyclist from a tourist cycling ?.

Tourists are wearing helmets.

You see, cycling in itself isnt a dangerous undertaking. Its nothing like a motorbike where the speeds are high enough to cause severe impact damage for the most part, and while you can fall off and that does happen, its not a normal danger.
Cars dont have roll cages. Yes some do go on accidental 'offroad' adventures and flip in an accident. But, like cycling in general its not a common occurrence.

Cycling in offroad places, ie mountainbiking, then lids are pretty compulsory as there are trees and rocks and roots and the nature of it all is high speed in rough terrain, whereas cycling in general is smooth tarmac.


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## MikeJhn (28 Jan 2022)

It has become more common to see skiers wearing helmets, mostly due to out of control skiers hitting others, head butts hurt, the problem is most helmets sold for skiing cover the ears so hearing is impaired, unlike a cycle helmet, most have exposed areas around the ears enabling them to hear a shouted warning or in most case's the shouted abuse.


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## MikeJhn (28 Jan 2022)

It has been reported in most cycling magazines that an often used mantra by motorist who have hit cyclist is "The where not wearing a helmet" as if a helmet is going to stop a car killing a human, just muddying the waters and trying for some kind of mitigation.


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## thetyreman (28 Jan 2022)

if drivers who are protected by their car would need to wear helmets they'd make it law, there are no airbags or seatbelts on a bike.


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## TRITON (28 Jan 2022)

MikeJhn said:


> It has been reported in most cycling magazines that an often used mantra by motorist who have hit cyclist is "The where not wearing a helmet" as if a helmet is going to stop a car killing a human, just muddying the waters and trying for some kind of mitigation.



No what the helmet does is when your body is crushed beyond repair, it means you are completely aware of it.


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## sploo (28 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> You see, cycling in itself isnt a dangerous undertaking. Its nothing like a motorbike where the speeds are high enough to cause severe impact damage for the most part, and while you can fall off and that does happen, its not a normal danger.


Unsure... I mean, as a (now former) biker I shake my head at daft people riding a motorbike in t-shirt/shorts/trainers; but then I remember I've frequently ridden a bicycle at over 40mph (never quite cracked 50mph, but got close a few times).

I dread to think of what would be left if you came off a bicycle at that speed wearing lycra and thin shoes with cleats.

As for "cycling in general is smooth tarmac"; consider the height of your head from the ground when seated on a bicycle, then think about the likely head injury that would result simply from falling over (even stationary) where your head hits tarmac from that height. Add a forward motion of potentially tens of mph and... well... let's just say that I prefer to wear a lid even when road cycling.


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## TRITON (28 Jan 2022)

Well thats ok for me then because i rarely get over 12mph 
Plus I don't wear lycra apart from undershorts. Here in Scotland its multiple layers to guard against the cold.

Incidentally your pic is totally misleading. Even when head injuries have occurred, nobody has ever received such an injury their head explodes.


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## sploo (28 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> Well thats ok for me then because i rarely get over 12mph
> Plus I don't wear lycra apart from undershorts. Here in Scotland its multiple layers to guard against the cold.
> 
> Incidentally your pic is totally misleading. Even when head injuries have occurred, nobody has ever received such an injury their head explodes.


I was hoping to find a slightly less dramatic watermelon drop, but that was the best of the bunch 

Being serious though; just falling (from average adult standing height) onto hard ground can cause significant head injuries, so a helmet is no bad idea even for casual cyclists.


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## Sandyn (28 Jan 2022)

When you are cycling, If you rely on rules of the highway code to keep you safe, you'll get into trouble. Any cyclist is responsible for looking after themselves on the road. You have to obey the rules of the road, be respectful and thoughtful towards other good road users. You have to assume, every car is driven by someone who is blind. Every car is going to pull out in front of you. Every car door you pass is suddenly going to open. Every pedestrian or dog is going to do something totally unexpected at the very last moment. Whilst watching for that, you have to look out for 5" deep potholes and observe the rules of the road. I constantly change my riding position on the road to suit traffic and roads. I am very aware holding up car drivers and try to assist them to get past. Sometimes it's safe for them to pass close at low speed, when there are cars coming in the opposite direction, but it's under my control. Most car drivers are very appreciative and give thanks. You still get the idiots that fly past, too fast and too close, even when the other carriageway is clear. Changes to the highway code will make no difference to bad drivers, or bad cyclists. 
I cycle quite a lot, typically 140 to 170 miles a week, but tend to keep off roads especially at commute times when people are in such a hurry. I can never understand why some drivers just have to get past a cyclist. how much time are they saving??

I do wear lycra (dark coloured) because it lowers wind resistance and it's warm. On some short Stravas I'm hitting 30+mph and I hate flapping clothing. I would estimate that 75% of women I pass whilst cycling have a quick swatch at my lunch pack. Some try to do it discretely, the head stays still, but the eyes move. Makes my laugh every time.


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## Jacob (28 Jan 2022)

.


Sandyn said:


> ......
> I cycle quite a lot, typically 140 to 170 miles a week, but tend to keep off roads especially at commute times when people are in such a hurry. I can never understand why some drivers just have to get past a cyclist. how much time are they saving??
> 
> I do wear lycra (dark coloured) because it lowers wind resistance and it's warm. .....


Busy main road sez bright yellow top. Essential really, it makes a big difference. Bright yellow jacket says police, ambulance, road worker and even a half asleep driver on autopilot will take more care.
I first noticed this years ago on the Kendal bypass, me in dark T shirt, on a sunny day with solid holiday traffic wizzing past. Felt too close and when a van wing mirror nearly touched my head I decided I'd had enough and put my yellow top on. The difference was immediately obvious and felt much safer. If it's hot just wear the top without the shirt.


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## Sandyn (28 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> Busy main road sez bright yellow top. Essential really, it makes a big difference


I always wear a high visibility jacket, but not a lycra one. As you say essential. I also have a bright flashing light on my helmet, but in some cases, people still don't see me. There's a blind spot in some drivers brains. They are looking for cars approaching and everything else is filtered out.


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## ian33a (29 Jan 2022)

Sandyn said:


> When you are cycling, If you rely on rules of the highway code to keep you safe, you'll get into trouble. Any cyclist is responsible for looking after themselves on the road. You have to obey the rules of the road, be respectful and thoughtful towards other good road users. You have to assume, every car is driven by someone who is blind. Every car is going to pull out in front of you. Every car door you pass is suddenly going to open. Every pedestrian or dog is going to do something totally unexpected at the very last moment. Whilst watching for that, you have to look out for 5" deep potholes and observe the rules of the road. I constantly change my riding position on the road to suit traffic and roads. I am very aware holding up car drivers and try to assist them to get past. Sometimes it's safe for them to pass close at low speed, when there are cars coming in the opposite direction, but it's under my control. Most car drivers are very appreciative and give thanks. You still get the idiots that fly past, too fast and too close, even when the other carriageway is clear. Changes to the highway code will make no difference to bad drivers, or bad cyclists.
> I cycle quite a lot, typically 140 to 170 miles a week, but tend to keep off roads especially at commute times when people are in such a hurry. I can never understand why some drivers just have to get past a cyclist. how much time are they saving??
> 
> I do wear lycra (dark coloured) because it lowers wind resistance and it's warm. On some short Stravas I'm hitting 30+mph and I hate flapping clothing. I would estimate that 75% of women I pass whilst cycling have a quick swatch at my lunch pack. Some try to do it discretely, the head stays still, but the eyes move. Makes my laugh every time.



Most of what you have written describes my cycling. The only differences, in my case, is that I tend to wear lighter coloured lycra, at least on top as it's more visible in dull light conditions. I also always ride with flashing lights - not to aid my visibility on the road (I have non flashing mountain bike lights for that situation), simply so that others can see me. I also have rear radar so that I can detect traffic coming up behind me - often a difficult thing to do if there is a headwind.

On an average ride 80Km ride I'll probably encounter a couple of inconsiderate drivers. The other thousand or so are very considerate. I suspect that the average car driver will encounter the same sort of ratio of cyclists.


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## TRITON (29 Jan 2022)

ian33a said:


> On an average ride 80Km ride I'll probably encounter a couple of inconsiderate drivers. The other thousand or so are very considerate. I suspect that the average car driver will encounter the same sort of ratio of cyclists.


I think that ratio is higher. Considerably higher.
If you've ever watched Cycling Micky's you tube channel there are a hell of a lot that speed through red lights, without slowing or showing any consideration.


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## ian33a (30 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> I think that ratio is higher. Considerably higher.
> If you've ever watched Cycling Micky's you tube channel there are a hell of a lot that speed through red lights, without slowing or showing any consideration.



Most of my riding is in smaller towns and in the countryside and outside of rush hour. Generally speaking, the road users there and then are a reasonable bunch. 

Fair point though, in bigger towns and cities and during the rush hour, I expect that manners and keeping within the law go out of the window. 

On the rare occasions that I'm out during rush hour I notice a definite trend toward highway anarchy.


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## doctor Bob (30 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> Even when head injuries have occurred, nobody has ever received such an injury their head explodes.



You may be surprised, just reading this thread has made my head do that a number of times.


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## TRITON (30 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> You may be surprised, just reading this thread has made my head do that a number of times.


You know the answer to that one.


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## doctor Bob (30 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> You know the answer to that one.


Yes, indeed, I am now wearing my tin foil helmet.


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## Sandyn (30 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> Cycling Micky's you tube channel there are a hell of a lot that speed through red lights, without slowing or showing any consideration.


For any cyclist going through a red light dangerously, they should get a fixed penalty and 3 points!!. If you don't have a licence, added to your driver record. Cyclists have to obey the rules of the road.


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## TRITON (30 Jan 2022)

Sandyn said:


> For any cyclist going through a red light dangerously, they should get a fixed penalty and 3 points!!. If you don't have a licence, added to your driver record. Cyclists have to obey the rules of the road.


Nice add 'to go through a red light _dangerously_' as in many instances it isnt dangerous, as in there's no other traffic. or the traffic is backed up and not moving.
Cyclists, as the vast majority of car drivers obey the rules, though possibly more so with cyclists who in any accident come off far worst, and are acutely aware of this fact.
But to give an example of a pedestrian crossing on a straight road, where the light is red and there are no pedestrians for a 100m from that crossing, most road users would stop, and if a cyclist goes through, that is because it is safe to do so. Im more than sure any self respecting driver would also like to go straight through as they too can see there's nobody on it, near it or needing to use it. Unless of course its at night, when most will use their own judgement and 'sneak' through
Cyclists have a clearer view of all around them, which is something car/van etc drivers do not, due to their view being hampered by the construction of the vehicle they are in. I can see more of whats around me than any driver driving next to me.
Cyclists have no 'blind side'

One of the biggest problems are car, as well as van and (not so much) bus drivers in cutting in. where the road or lane user sees someone to the side of them start to pull in making the area they are in get narrower and narrower and they are forced to reduce speed to allow it or risk being sideswiped. Perhaps we should allow articulated lorries, when seeing a car or van on their inside and level with their truck to pull the same maneuver, which does happen and the subsequent car/van driver rightly poos himself, but it is a driving infraction where the offender 99% of the time is a car or van.
It looks like these users at least have a sense of entitlement and also an inherent selfishness, to disclude everyone around them as having the same rights to the road as themselves.
But and i should add these idiots are not the normal road user.

Perhaps the real problem that society should be addressing, is the concept of self entitlement that has become normal for all in and outside driving a car/van/bicycle, where they now care little about the health, safety or fair use of any and all around them.
But that is a concept too alien for the majority of the daily mail readership to grasp.

I am a daily road user of some 30 years experience.


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## TRITON (30 Jan 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Yes, indeed, I am now wearing my tin foil helmet.


You and the cat


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## Valhalla (30 Jan 2022)

Rather than cyclists blocking lanes and preventing vehicle drivers from getting on with their business it should be mandatory for them to pull over if there are 3 or more vehicles behind them and the cyclist(s) has covered - say a mile for example. This would prevent situations where cyclists have hogged the road for 8 miles! In towns and cities this hogging of roads will slow down traffic and increase pollution for sure.


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## Droogs (30 Jan 2022)

That is one very impressed cat - not


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## TRITON (30 Jan 2022)

Valhalla said:


> Rather than cyclists blocking lanes


Blocking lanes ?
You mean as in the car/van/bus in front of you. Preventing you from speeding ahead. Saving those precious seconds.

Perhaps they should stop, dismount and perform a bow or courtesy as you pass.


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## Jacob (30 Jan 2022)

Valhalla said:


> Rather than cyclists blocking lanes and preventing vehicle drivers from getting on with their business it should be mandatory for them to pull over if there are 3 or more vehicles behind them and the cyclist(s) has covered - say a mile for example. This would prevent situations where cyclists have hogged the road for 8 miles! In towns and cities this hogging of roads will slow down traffic and increase pollution for sure.


Yes but it hardly ever happens for more than a few hundred yards, certainly not 8 miles of road hogging.
Some places it's problematic to stop and give way e.g. if labouring up a hill on a narrow road. If you stop you can't get started again and could end up slowing even more traffic down. The Clarksons would get even angrier if they had to follow behind a cyclist walking up a steep hill instead of pedalling.
The anti cycling brigade gets a bit tedious - cycles are not the problem, motor traffic is. And gets billions spent on infrastructure.
Maybe they should have to complete some cycle training with the driving test, perhaps take a refresher as cycling becomes more important in view of air pollution and traffic overcrowding.


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## Valhalla (30 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> Blocking lanes ?
> You mean as in the car/van/bus in front of you. Preventing you from speeding ahead. Saving those precious seconds.
> 
> Perhaps they should stop, dismount and perform a bow or courtesy as you pass.


No - I'm talking about the cyclist sitting in the middle of a lane when it is the only lane in the direction of travel. If they want to get off their bikes and give a bow.....who am I to deny them that little pleasure?


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## doctor Bob (30 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> Perhaps they should stop, dismount and perform a bow or courtesy as you pass.



I knew eventually someone would come up with a good idea, well done that man, maybe a doff of the helmet as well?


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## HamsterJam (30 Jan 2022)

Now maybe if we brought back the man carrying a red flag walking ahead of all motor vehicles….


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Jan 2022)

Jacob said:


> But if Deema's calcs are correct, that cyclist are nearly as dangerous as HGVs, then you'd expect HGV/bike collisions to produce nearly as many injuries to the drivers as to the cyclists.  Could this be true?



My grandfather was an atrocious driver. He always boasted he'd driven for sixty years and never had an accident. Christ knows how many he'd caused.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Jan 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> As my route is inevitable on the normally stopped direction I have no option but to jump it.



Yeah ..... that's why I jump red lights as well.


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## TRITON (31 Jan 2022)

Valhalla said:


> No - I'm talking about the cyclist sitting in the middle of a lane when it is the only lane in the direction of travel. If they want to get off their bikes and give a bow.....who am I to deny them that little pleasure?


Using 'you' as a generic term 

I know what you are saying and a cyclist doing that has zero road sense, or is just a richardhead.

Personally I check behind me and if i see a build up of traffic, pul into the side and stop and wave the cars behind through.
Thats not just because im a nice guy, but because I know that tightened up traffic is a dangerous situation to be in, so im doing it for myself.
With the physical act of waving them through they actually think im acting in their interest when the opposite is true  But that said, its usually in familiar areas with drivers ill likely see again and again. so not just causing little harm but it adds up to PR for cyclists.


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## flying haggis (31 Jan 2022)




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