# Stupid finishing question of the day....



## OscarG (24 Dec 2018)

I'm looking to dip my toe into the world of shellac. Watched a load of French polishing vids on youtube, it looks slow but I fancy having a go, problem is all the examples are on flat bits of wood. 

I don't really make furniture, table tops, I'm more interested in making smaller things you can pick up like guitars/bandsaw boxes, little bits and bobs given as gifts, so is shellac/french polishing suitable for curved surface/irregular shaped items like that?

2nd dumb question, is all use of shellac "french polishing"?


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## marcros (24 Dec 2018)

I have used shellac on boxes and small items. I haven't used it in furniture sized pieces. 

Personally, I would suggest getting a high quality mop brush and brushing it on. Takes a little practice and a bit of technique but isn't difficult. With regards to small items, it is fine, but the items that I would shy away from is those with nooks and crannies. If you can't get a brush into it easily, you won't get a pad into it. 

French polish usually refers to the application with a polishing pad in very thin layers. Same stuff going on though.


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## deema (24 Dec 2018)

I once worked alongside a French Polisher for a couple of months and had a go at the time. I know eneough to know that French Polishing is a real profession. That said, French polishing a new item isn’t that difficult, it’s the eradicating marks / restoration to blend colours that’s the skill I believe.

French polishing only requires you to be able to flatten the surface after numerous applications of shellac before more applications in order to fill the grain and achieve the mirror surface. If you can sand / abraded the surface you can french polish it. Again, if you just want a resilient surface that’s not a mirror finish you can still use shellac, but then again why go to the effort when there are other products. Button polish for instance is similar but far easier to apply.


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## Cordy (24 Dec 2018)

Recently I bought Blonde Shellac flakes direct from India via the bay; decent quality, cheap enough -- about 2 weeks for delivery

Mixed with Meths to a '2 pound cut' it can give OK results
On Maple it needs to be diluted more; try one pound cut

Experimenting on scrap is a good idea


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## OscarG (24 Dec 2018)

Thanks guys!

Ah so that answered the another question I forgot to ask. All the US youtubers use "denatured alcohol" so that's "meths" in English money?

I always get confused between meths, white spirit and turps!

When I see youtubers talk about denatured alcohol or mineral spirits, I've no idea what they mean.


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## thetyreman (24 Dec 2018)

I prefer IPA Isopropyl alcohol to meths for the base of all shellac, there's no purple tinge, and it doesn't cost that much more.


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## marcros (24 Dec 2018)

denatured is meths but isopropyl alcohol or surgical spirit will do the same.
mineral spirits are what we call white spirit.

not entirely sure what turps substitute is, so best avoided IMHO. proper terps smells nice in polishes, but is expensive.


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## custard (24 Dec 2018)

OscarG":1vexmqk5 said:


> I don't really make furniture, table tops, I'm more interested in making smaller things you can pick up like guitars/bandsaw boxes, little bits and bobs given as gifts, so is shellac/french polishing suitable for curved surface/irregular shaped items like that?
> 
> 2nd dumb question, is all use of shellac "french polishing"?



The french polishing techniques you've seen demonstrated on YouTube are perfectly relevant for smaller items like guitars, I regularly french polish small items like jewellery boxes. 

A carved item can still have shellac brushed on. Would that still be called french polished? I tend to called brushed work "shellacked" but when the polish is applied with a rubber I call it french polishing. But, hey. the terminology is a bit loose and fuzzy so you call it whatever you like!


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Dec 2018)

marcros":3qacampa said:


> denatured is meths but isopropyl alcohol or surgical spirit will do the same.
> mineral spirits are what we call white spirit.
> 
> not entirely sure what turps substitute is, so best avoided IMHO. proper terps smells nice in polishes, but is expensive.



Turpentine and turpentine substitute are totally different things. It is better to use white spirit than turps sub (other than for cleaning brushes, maybe) as it carries a B.S. number - B.S 245 - or if it doesn't it has to comply to the same standard to be legally sold as white spirit. (From the horse's mouth - Tradings Standards). Turbs sub. can be anything the manufacture has a surplus of on the day.


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## OscarG (24 Dec 2018)

One more stupid question!.... getting 'em all out before 2019 

If you wanted to have shellac finish with either a brush or rubber/pad thing would you use a shellac sanding sealer first?


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## Just4Fun (24 Dec 2018)

As I understand it shellac sanding sealer is just a more diluted shellac so I wouldn't bother.

I French polished a piece I made, a sort of lectern. It had telescopic legs to make the height adjustable, with 3 pieces sliding within each other. Lots of tricky areas to get into, but the end result was fine. On another piece I tried applying shellac with a brush but I was less happy with those results. Of course that was most likely operator error so you could get a better finish than I did.


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## custard (27 Dec 2018)

OscarG":z7d7m6u6 said:


> would you use a shellac sanding sealer first?



Personally the answer is no, I wouldn't. However, your question raises another interesting point. 

If I prepared two test pieces, one french polished and one finished with sanding sealer followed by a coat or two of hard wax, how many people could tell the difference?

Not that many is the truth. And if you want a decent gloss, fast, and relatively low skill finishing routine then sanding sealer/wax is the way to go. It used to be a hugely popular technique but has slipped a bit recently, probably because gloss is less fashionable and people have gotten out of the habit of using drinks coasters so any shellac based finish becomes a bit vulnerable.

This is Ash (super open grained timber so tricky to grain fill for a gloss result) finished with sanding sealer and hard wax. This is a five minute job that an eight year old could do, if it's the look you want then that'd be what I'd recommend!


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## dzj (27 Dec 2018)

French polish requires a drop or 2 of mineral oil on the pad. That's what gives it a high gloss.
You can apply regular shellac with a pad or brush or spray, but it won't be that glossy.


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## marcros (27 Dec 2018)

Is that correct? I was under the impression that the oil was for lubrication. The pad or brush etc is a way of getting the material onto the wood. 

I am going to try the dealer and wax approach. Is there a recipe for sanding sealer from flakes or is it just a light mix of the French polish?


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Dec 2018)

Every time s/sealer + wax for a finish crops up , I remember a comment made here a few years ago (by, I iirc Woodfinish Man - who hasn't been here for a few years) - why would anyone choose to use for a finish a product specifically designed to be easily scratched? :? Seems a fair comment to me.


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## custard (27 Dec 2018)

dzj":rtyhvzqk said:


> French polish requires a drop or 2 of mineral oil on the pad. That's what gives it a high gloss.



Not quite. You don't always need oil. The more experienced you are the less oil you tend to use. And the purpose of the oil is lubrication not gloss.


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## custard (27 Dec 2018)

phil.p":9r3sl343 said:


> Every time s/sealer + wax for a finish crops up , I remember a comment made here a few years ago (by, I iirc Woodfinish Man - who hasn't been here for a few years) - why would anyone choose to use for a finish a product specifically designed to be easily scratched? :? Seems a fair comment to me.



Seems a pretty daft comment to me Phil.

Someone may well choose that finish for anything that's unlikely to be abraded! It's really not brain surgery. So, not great for floors, but I've seen all manner of projects, from jewellery boxes to occasional tables, that have looked stunning for many years with just a sanding sealer and wax finish.


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## marcros (27 Dec 2018)

But here the sealer is only to prevent the wax soaking into the timber. The finish is the wax itself, with the advantages and disadvantages, suitability and otherwise of wax as a finish.


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## dzj (27 Dec 2018)

custard":1j2d3sbf said:


> dzj":1j2d3sbf said:
> 
> 
> > French polish requires a drop or 2 of mineral oil on the pad. That's what gives it a high gloss.
> ...



Which ingredient in French polish would you say is responsible for the mirror-like finish (apart from elbow grease  ), that sets it apart from plain cut shellac? The recipes I've seen suggest a half dozen things in the alcohol based concoction and also a variety of different oils (poppy, walnut...). 
The various fillers they suggest are also numerous.
Thx.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Dec 2018)

custard":2htsuq1p said:


> phil.p":2htsuq1p said:
> 
> 
> > Every time s/sealer + wax for a finish crops up , I remember a comment made here a few years ago (by, I iirc Woodfinish Man - who hasn't been here for a few years) - why would anyone choose to use for a finish a product specifically designed to be easily scratched? :? Seems a fair comment to me.
> ...


Made perfect sense to me. Each to their own - I only use it for a finish out of desperation.


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## custard (27 Dec 2018)

> Which ingredient in French polish would you say is responsible for the mirror-like finish



It's not really an ingredient as such that's responsible for the mirror surface (yes the actual surface is shellac, but lots of other materials are also capable of delivering a mirror surface). It's more the _process_ of french polishing. This process can transform the shellac into an absolutely flat surface; with the almost total removal of the tiny cracks, fissures, grain pockets, roughness, trapped hair or dust particles, brush marks, etc. All of which act to reduce the gloss level with many other finishes.

The purpose of the oil is to deliver the lubrication that allows the surface to be progressively worked to this level. What normally happens is that at some point the rubber grabs at the surface, some call this "burning", if and when it happens you then have to remove the burnt area by bodying over again. Now there are lots of ways of putting off this moment, adjusting the cut, re-charging the rubber, workshop temperature or humidity, the speed and pressure of your hand movements, etc, etc. When you've been french polishing for a long time you can almost feel when your rubber is about to grab, and you adjust these variables accordingly. Someone who is new to french polishing won't yet have that instinct, and so will quickly resort to using oil in order to keep going.

My issue with oil is that ultimately I'll want to remove it from the french polished surface in the final "spiriting off" stage. The more oil I've used along the way the more arduous that process becomes.


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## worn thumbs (27 Dec 2018)

I admit at the outset that I have never French polished anything.Come to that I don't have too much interest in the process as there are more durable alternatives available.I do remember that somebody in the past explained to me that sanding sealer is basically the ingredients that go into French polish plus a dollop of sodium stearate.Thats the stuff that is added to Frecut or Lubrisil paper to reduce clogging.


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## Steve Maskery (27 Dec 2018)

worn thumbs":1t4oeq0p said:


> sodium stearate. That's the stuff that is added to Frecut or Lubrisil paper to reduce clogging.



Steve's Useless Piece Of Info For The Day:

Stearate (not sure if it is sodium, but certainly a stearate) is also used by magicians. When you see a bloke onstage snap his fingers to make a perfect fan of cards, it's because they are slicked with stearate powder.


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## profchris (27 Dec 2018)

It's the shellac which produces the French Polish shine. You can get close, as I do, by building up a coat of shellac and then levelling and polishing with increasingly fine compounds. No oil involved. But on a guitar, it's still a little less clash than proper French polishing.

As to suitability, there's nothing better sounding on a guitar than French Polish, even if it requires more babying than e.g. catalysed polyester. But not for kitchen worktops - different finishes for different uses.


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## custard (27 Dec 2018)

> It's the shellac which produces the French Polish shine.



Except it's not! 

Look at a piece of furniture that has both carved elements and casework elements. The casework is french polished, the carved work has the exact same shellac polish, but applied with a brush rather than a rubber. Both elements are coated in the same shellac...so do they have the same French Polish shine? No, they absolutely do not. 

The shine is a function of the french polish technique rather than the shellac polish itself.


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## Steve Maskery (27 Dec 2018)

He's right, you know.


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## profchris (28 Dec 2018)

custard":68o214y6 said:


> > It's the shellac which produces the French Polish shine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wasn't clear enough - my point was that the shine comes from the shellac surface, not the oils or other ingredients sometimes used. But of course, it won't shine if the surface is uneven. If its flat enough to be polished then abrasive polishing can get a decent shine, though not the lustre of traditional French polishing.


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## custard (28 Dec 2018)

profchris":2r5pdk84 said:


> my point was that the shine comes from the shellac surface, not the oils or other ingredients sometimes used



Fair enough, I'd agree with that.


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## johnnyb (1 Jan 2019)

What allows shellac to get a gloss finish using a rubber is an odd semi soluble trait. Shellac slowly dissolves in alcohol.this allows an amount of burnishing to take place from the effects of the rubber. Anyone used pullover on cellulose lacquer? It's has a similar way of biting but not.
Oil is used when lashing a thick coat on to stop it sticking.
The semi soluble thing is obvious when dissolving buttons or cleaning out a spraygun after using shellac.
I usually try and avoid sanding sealer. It gives a softer finish film.(use lacquer coat on coat instead)


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