# Hand Saw Restoration and Re-teething of a 99p saw Completed



## deema (20 Jun 2016)

I thought I might share how I bring an overlooked hand saw back into being a very useful thing. This is my method, step by step, I'm sure others will both help me and anyone reading this by suggesting improvements and ways in which I can do it better. All comments are gratefully received.

I was inspired to write this by both all of the sharing of restoration done by others, I don't pretend to be an equal to the high quality work I've seen on this forum and also by a new woody who wrote in the forum who was looking for advice on their first hand saw.

For anyone new to wood work, the first hand saw they normally pickup is normally a in-expensive hard point saw from a DIY store. These saws are fine IMO for rough DIY but for anyone trying to make joints they leave a lot to be desired and can I'm sure put people off.

So, for a grand investment 99p anyone can obtain a saw that with a little time and effort can be as good as the most expensive saws you can buy (again that's my opinion)

So, first things first, either look up your nearest car boot sale or start looking on auction sites for a hand saw. 

The first question is often what to look for, well a hand saw is basically only as good as the teeth that cut the wood and this is determined by the quality of the steel. The better steels are found on either high quality modern saws such as a Pax who are the last saw makers in the UK or alternatively, an old saw. For a 'rags to riches' saw your not looking for anything fancy. Pistol grip saws tend to go for a lot of money, so a closed handle may not look as nice, but is actually stronger and more resilient to being dropped. Generally on an old saw it will have a wooden handle, which is highly likely to be beach. Don't worry about how 'crappy' I looks that's soon solved with little sand paper!

Brass back saws cost more to make than steel and is a good sign that it was a quality saw in its day, so my suggestion is select one with a brass back. 

Don't get hung up about brands, rather look at the overal quality of the saw that lies beneath the grime. If the teeth are missing, uneven, dull, smile with glee, your going to sharpen in and that puts a lot of people off making it cheaper.

Select a saw that does not have split nuts on the two, three or four 'bolts' holding the handle onto the blade. Look instead for a saw with nuts that you can use a normal screwdriver on. Nothing wrong with split nuts apart from
1. They need a screw driver adapting to fit the nut
2. They are generally weaker and more brittle and break easier. 

Lastly, sight down the blade and check that the blade is not kinked. It may be curved or an S shape, but what you don't want is any sharp and sudden changes in direction. Anything else is easily fixed.


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## deema (20 Jun 2016)

So, armed with what to look for, I purchased the following saw for the grand sum of 99p







The saw has a Warrated Medalion, which means that it was probably for a good quality saw manufacturer who needed to move some stock for a lower price than the normal brand would command. Looking at the shape of the handle and overal high quality of how it's been made its probably a Spear & Jackson saw.

Under the grime it has a nice beach handle, and the brass back is really well folded, the two sides are even and level. The blade is rusty with very light putting, however nothing is near the teeth, so it's just cosmetic. A nice sharpened Spear & Jackson saw on an auction site is probably going to cost c£40 including postage. So, I've got a bargain!


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## deema (20 Jun 2016)

The saw has a lot of problems, teeth are missing / uneven which is known as Cows and Calves, and the blade is in an S shape when you sight down it. All easily fixed!

First things first, take the saw apart. Unscrew the nuts and gently remove the studs, they may need persuading to come out by tapping them out with a thick nail that's been blunted / had the point removed. Be careful not to damage / bend the studs.
















Gentle pull the saw handle off the blade, keeping the studs and nuts together and putting aside for safe keeping.


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## deema (20 Jun 2016)

Now to remove the brass back. If it's steel, it's the same process. Place the blade in a vice with wooden inserts or something to protect the blade. Your not worried about the teeth, you just don't want to damage the blade., now starting at the toe (opposite end to the handle) either use a wooden mallet or, a piece of wood talked with a hammer tap the back off the blade. It may be very stiff as the rust has caused it to bind together......another good reason to select a brass backed saw.
















So, now the saws fully apart the restoration can begin. Initially the blade needs cleaning up, you want to have a blade that you can see a reflection in, that's not to say it needs to be shiny and like a mirror. The reason you need to see a reflection is that when cutting a piece of wood, if you can see the reflection of the wood in the blade, when the reflection lines up with the wood, you know your going to cut at 90 degrees, easy and saves having to mark out!

I use household vinegar to clean up rust, any vinegar will do, cheaper the better. Place the blade in a container and cover in vinegar and leave it for about 48 hours.






After its pickled for a while take it out dry it off and use either wire wool, Autosol, brass cleaner or similar to remove the back residue left on the blade. A bit of elbow grease and it starts to clean up. Here is how far I take it. I then cover it in some form of rust preventor. Any wax will do (silicone free), I use Metal Guard followed by a light wax.











You can see the reflection of the Metal Guard can in the blade, that's good enough for aligning the wood to cut at 90 degrees.


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## deema (20 Jun 2016)

Next the handle gets a good sand to remove all of the old finish, grime and horrid scoring. I usually start off with 120 grit and work my way up to about 240. Now is the time to test out the feel of the handle. If it's a bit thick for your grip sand it down, if it's not wide enough for your hand sand it wider. I remove every sharp edge and blend all of the curves until it feels nice in my hand. You want to make the handle fit your hand and be as nice as possible to hold. 

So, this is after about 15 minutes work. Total time spent so far is about 20 minutes.


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## Max Power (21 Jun 2016)

Very good post . Eagerly awaiting the next episode .


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## MattRoberts (21 Jun 2016)

Agreed - it's fascinating


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## AndyT (21 Jun 2016)

I've already added it to the restoration sticky 

Keep it coming!


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## technium (21 Jun 2016)

Looks good, ive got a few old saws from my grandad in the shed somewhere, might have to dig them out if theyre worth keeping instead of keep buying the £7 bogof cheapies from B&Q.

thanks

Colin


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## Rhyolith (21 Jun 2016)

I have been meaning to attempt this on my myraid of old saws for a while, thanks  Never thought about the reflection thing!


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## bugbear (21 Jun 2016)

Rhyolith":3f8rh0g1 said:


> I have been meaning to attempt this on my myraid of old saws for a while, thanks  Never thought about the reflection thing!



Makes it slide nicely in the kerf too.

BugBear


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## deema (21 Jun 2016)

Now that the handle is cleaned up, smooth and fits your hand you need to add some form of finish. The conventional wisdom is to avoid varnish as this can rub your hand and cause blisters / sore areas. Well, if your sawing for hours every day, that's good advice, however, virtually everyone precessional or hobby orientated only uses hand tools for a short period I would use what ever you want!

Personally I use boiled linseed oil often referred to s BLO followed by a coat of bees wax.






To apply BLO is very easy, literally smother the handle in it, wait 10 minutes and wipe off the excess, let it dry for a few hours and repeat. The end grain will suck up the BLO, so don't worry about it. What you don't want to have is a situation where you leave the BLO smothered over the handle and leave it to dry when the wood has soaked up as much of it as it can. If this happens you end up with a nasty sticky mess that takes a while to scrape and sand back. The trick is just wipe off the excess after c10 mins. You can apply as many coats as you want up until it saturates and won't absorb any more. I don't normally wait for this point and give it about 5 coats. 

After leaving the last coat for 48 hours I will give it a coat of bees wax. This isn't to achieve a shiny finish, the bees wax makes a nice finish to hold that isn't slippy. You don't have to wax it, left with just BLO is absolutely fine. This saw had a wax finish on the handle.

Finally don't throw away the cloth or paper towel you used to apply the BLO, spread it out and let it dry. If you scrunch it up and throw it away it might ignite and start a fire. Once the rag or paper towel is dry it's safe to dispose of.


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## deema (21 Jun 2016)

The handle is now finished and can be put aside, leaving just the blade to finish. Firstly, the brass back needs to be put back on the plate, it's not necessary for sharpening, it just in my opinion makes the blade easier to handle.

At this point it's a good time to shine up the brass back, again Autosol or brass cleaner works well. For this saw I also shined up the studs, Medalion and nuts, might as well make it look as good as I can! Once cleaned, hair spray makes a very good barrier to tarnishing. 

So, to begin with check that the blade near where the brass back is going to go is free from crud and is flat, often there will be a crud line where the brass back edge was on the blade and this needs special attention to make sure it's been removed. If you use sandpaper don't over do it, it's easy to thin the plate steel down and it needs its thickness to be clamped by the brass back. 






You can see the folded brass, a good sign that this is a quality saw is that the brass is folded evenly and both sides align. A poorer quality saw the fold will be offset and one side will be longer than the other. It's not an issue and won't affect the saw in any way, it's just an indication of the care that was taken when it was made.

The brass back (or steel) is a folded piece of metal that clamps the blade plate and allows you to induce tension into the blade. The tension is what pulls the blade straight and makes it into a saw. If a saw has been dropped often the tension in the blade has been released and when you sight down the blade is either curved or an S shape. This is easy to induce when fitting the back and equally easy to fix if you drop the saw.

Place the handle back in the blade and check its aligned with the stud holes. Then mark on the blade where the brass back needs to sit, it should be flush with the handle in the recess, I.e. No gap when you look down on the saw. We can adjust it if necessary later on, it's just to get it as close as possible.

Firstly run a little oil along the edge of the back where the blade goes, it makes putting it back on a little easier, any oil will do.

Now, secure the blade plate in a vice and starting at the handle end start putting the brass back onto the blade. This is the same photo of me taking it off, but it's shows exactly how you start to put it back on.






The next photo is my primitive diagram of where to start tapping it with a mallet to push the back into the blade. You tap at the two ends (1) and (2) of the brass back, NEVER in the middle.






By tapping only on either end until you get it sat back down about 4 to 6mm or 1/8~1/4" across the entire bade you induce a tension along the blade, the centre of the blade will not have been pushed into the back as far a either end, and this causes the centre of the blade at the teeth to be in tension. If you tap in the centre of the blade the top edge of the blade inside the back goes into tension and the bottom edge where the teeth will be is in compression which causes the curve or S that you sometimes see when sighting down the blade.

If you don't get it right first, there are two remedies, either take off the back and start again, or tap lightly on either end. The second method works every time, it's a gentle tap. If you drop the saw, and the tension is released the usual remedy is to tap the toe to re-tension it. This often leads to the back being pushed down too far on old saws you see.

This is the saw now with its brass back on


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## deema (21 Jun 2016)

To sharpen the blade you will need some specialist tools, that ar'nt very expensive.

A second cut file such as a Bacho c£8, this is mine:






A triangular saw file, for hand saws I would recommend that you buy a 5 or 6 " single ended slim file. I buy mine fro. Administer Tools (c£4) and normally buy two just in case one is a dud. I normally buy Vallorbe Swiss files which I find to be very good. You need to either buy a handle or make one out of some scrap wood with a hole drilled into it for the tang of the file to be inserted. My file that I used is shown with a guide block pushed in the end, we will come to that directly.






A saw set, such as an Eclipse 77 bought from. An auction site for c£5. There are fine and course Eclipse saw sets which are both designated as a no77! The way to tell them apart normally is that the fine has a red in the workings.






When buying an Eclipse saw set you will find both iron and bronze versions, I tend to buy the bronze as they are nicer looking. They both work the same, so it's just a cosmetic preference. 

Now, although I have both a course and a fine saw set, that's just me, you actually only need one, fine or course it doesn't matter. The only difference between the fine and course is the width of the hammer that bends the saw teeth. You can take a course setting tool apart and file the hammer smaller to fit the teeth your making. A filed hammer can set a large tooth as well as a small tooth! 

One myth is that the dial on the anvil of the saw set designates the setting for the number of teeth per inch. It doesn't, it's just an aid for determining how far you will bend the teeth.

Total cost so far £18 including the saw.


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## deema (21 Jun 2016)

To sharpen the saw it needs to be held securely. There are either specialist saw vices available on auction sites, you can make one, plans are available on the Internet, or alternatively you can go super low tech, and use two pieces of wood. I've done part of this restoration using two pieces of wood and part with my saw vice, I started out using pieces of wood, which is perfectly adequate. 

Here's the two pieces I used
















The exact dimensions are not critical, you just want something that is slightly longer than the saw. I place the blade between the two pieces of wood and use two screws to secure it together - through the ends of the wood which are beyond the blade. The blade is poking out about 4mm. 

Many advocate that the top of the wood should be chamfered at say 15 degrees. It's not necessary, but it helps to use the entire length of the file. 

I should add, that for normal use, without accidents I sharpen my saws about once a year, and a saw file will sharpen about 6 saws, about 70p a sharpen!


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## deema (21 Jun 2016)

For any new saw I buy that's secondhand I ALWAYS remove all of the teeth no matter how good they look and cut new ones. Why? Well, there are normally problems with how it's been sharpened in the past e.g.

The teeth have not been set correctly, and the slot the blade cuts is too wide. Resetting the teeth is never very successful.

The teeth have been stoned. If the saw is not cutting straight and wanders to one side, the set on the teeth is not equal on both sides. A solution advocated is to use a sharpening stone to 'hone' the offending side. Disaster in my opinion. The teeth on the side that are stoned are reduced in width and will wear faster that the side that has not been stoned, very quickly the saw won't cut properly again.

The teeth have been sharpened incorrectly with some big teeth and some little ones (Cows bad Calves)

I also like to choose the number of teeth per inch I want, this is determined by what I want the saw for. 

If your attempting to sharpen a saw for the first time, I would strongly advocate stripping all of the teeth off, by following the method I will hopefully explain you will both learn very quickly how to sharpen a saw and get a good result. 

This is a close up of some of the teeth on the saw






So, with the saw trapped between two pieces of wood that is now held in the vice, use the second cut file to file off the teeth. Long strokes down the entire blade until all sign of the teeth is gone. Don't worry, your only removing a couple of millimetres and it will be done in about 8~10 strokes. Let the file cut, don't push down on the file, and lift the file off the blade at the end of each stroke.

Try to keep the file horizontal, don't tip it to one side, this is important for ensuring the teeth are properly formed in the next stage. Because the blade is very thin, any affect of a tipped file will be very small, for a panel saw or ripping saw which has a thicker blade the effect is far more noticeable so try to get into the habit of keeping the saw flat. There are jigs you can buy to keep the file flat, or alternatively you can make one. I find that with a little care it's easy enough to do free hand.











Now that the teeth are removed take something straight and check that the filed surface is flat. Assuming you have chosen a saw that's about 12" long a ruler is good for this purpose. When I say flat, I'm not taking about feeler gauge flat, just reasonably flat, it must not be concave with a hollow in the centre of the blade, a very very slight bow or crown isn't a problem. Take a little time and get it reasonably flat without taking lots of metal off.

Some saws have a blade that narrows towards the toe by design, and a lot have this appearance due to poor sawing / sharpening. You can at this stage adjust the taper on the blade if you want.....I never bother. The saw I bought was almost perfectly square.


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

To sharpen the saw, we need to determine what the saw will be used for, there are different tooth patterns (that's not the correct term, but for clarity I will use it) for different situations. For ripping, or cutting with the grain, the teeth are very simple to make, for cross cut the tooth pattern is more complex and needs more concentration to do it well. 

All in all, I have found that backed saws that are sharpened to a RIP pattern are absolutely fine for 99% of everything I have ever made. It's only with exotic woods and very thin stuff I have ever been tempted to reach for a saw that is sharpened with 'fleam' for cross cutting. In general, and this is my opinion, the thin plate of the blade and a finely set tooth (amount you push the tooth to one side) means that there is not real noticeable difference between a RIP and a cross cut saw.

So, this saw is going to be sharpened with a RIP tooth setting. The next question is what angle should the front edge of the tooth be sharpened at? If the front edge is at 90 degrees it is very aggressive and hard to start the cut, if you relax the angle to say 15 degrees from the vertical it is very easy to start but cuts very slowly. There is a lot written about the best angle (rake of the tooth), and again from my own experimentation I have found that it only really becomes relevant on large saws with big teeth. My reading has suggested that Disston advocated 8 degrees for RIP saws which is what I use on all my saws. It makes a relatively aggressive cut which is relatively easy to start. The best compromise. 

There is a school of thought that a progressive rake leads to the best saw, where the front 1" (25mm) from the toe is sharpened at say 15 degrees, then over the following inch (25mm) this is then progressively increased to either 8 degrees or all the way back to 0 degrees. I've tried it, it's easy with a bit of experience to sharpen a saw this way, but again IMO does not really give any benefit and does make the front 2" of your blade not as effective as it could be at cutting - that's actually a lot of poor cutting area on a 12" blade which is a typical handsaw length,

So, again this saws going to be sharpened at constant 8 degrees of rake.

Finally, there is the question of how many teeth per inch to cut (TPI). This is the number of teeth you can count starting at a gully and finishing at a gully in a distance of 1". There is another measure you will see, which it PPI or points per inch. This is the number of teeth over an inch you can count in this case you count the points of the teeth rather than the gullies. PPI is always one more than TPI. So, a 14 TPI is a 15PPI.

For a saw to cut properly you need at least 3~4 teeth in the cut at any given time. Any less and the saw will 'catch', this is caused by the saw falling into the wood too far causing you to try and push the whole tooth (gully to point) through the wood rather than just a small section of the top (point) of the tooth. It's the same feeling you get when starting a saw in a cut, and is caused by exactly the same problem. 

So, for simple maths, if you have a saw with 15TPI or 16PPI, it will cut very well down to say 1/4" thigh wood. At 1/4" (6mm) it will have at any given time 16 /4 = 4 points in the cut. By not cutting straight to the wood, and rather at an angle you can elongate the length of wood being cut and go down to about 2mm or c1/6" without too much difficulty.

For almost every application brass backed hand saws are usually shaperped to a tooth spacing of between 11 and 13 TPI (12 to 14 PPI). For finer work and dovetails 14PPI and for larger tennons 12PPI. A saw with any of these PPI will cut everything you will most likely want, the 14 PPI will be slightly slower in how quickly you can cut than an 12PPI, however the exit of the cut will be slightly less raggedy. 

There are commercial saws you can buy with a 16 or 22 TPI, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having this tooth spacing, it will cut a very finely, but relatively slowly. I've personally never needed a saw with this fine tooth pattern.

So, for a truly universal saw (in my opinion) we arrive at a RIP pattern, with an 8 degree rake and 14PPI. This will cross cut, make tennons and cut Dovetails extremely well in all wood down to about 4mm in thickness. That covers just about everything most people will do.


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## Jacob (25 Jun 2016)

deema":393h23a3 said:


> .......
> 
> You can see the reflection of the Metal Guard can in the blade, that's good enough for aligning the wood to cut at 90 degrees.


It's a bit mythical that reflection/90º thing as anybody will soon find if they attempt to rely on it.

Re polish - I'm not into tool restoration, beyond what you need to make it work, which in this case would be a good dose of raw linseed oil (all over) and a sharpen say 30 minutes max. The wood and the steel will then polish up with use. Even a very rusty blade develops a black/brown low-friction and reflective sheen, which after a great deal of use will go steely grey in patches.

I also would never bother to recut - it's simpler to follow what's already there (if anything remains) and the odd missing tooth will be corrected over time. If I wanted a different TPI I'd look for another saw. Old saws are cheap.


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## bugbear (25 Jun 2016)

deema":2p1t0k20 said:


> My reading has suggested that Disston advocated 8 degrees for RIP saws...



I've never heard that, very interesting. Do you have a reference, please?

BugBear


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

Hi BugBear

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

Look at the section, RIP tooth geometry, I've read it somewhere else as well, but I can't remember where.

I think it's rather a good summary of saw geometry.


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

Jacob, good points you raise, as always.

It actually took me just under 30 minutes to sharpen this saw which included stripping off the teeth. I have found that once you know how to saw, and what a good saw feels like you can just re-sharpen a secondhand saw. For me though, I often find that the last owner didn't know how to sharpen the saw and has damaged one or more teeth making it better to strip them off and start from a clean plate.

For someone new to wood working, without that knowledge, I wanted to present a method that will give them the best possible chance to create a saw for very little money that cuts and performs like a new premium saw.


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

Let's have a look at number of teeth and what it will cut.

The saw in the photos is a 11TPI or 12 PPI

The wood is c3/4" or 19mm, a fairly useful size, you can see that there are a number of teeth in contact with the wood, the saw will cut well.







Going down to 1/2" or 12mm, again plenty of teeth will engage with the wood.






Going down to 3/16, or c 4mm there are only two teeth in contact with the wood, the teeth will 'bite' too deep and the cut will be very rough with a lot of blow out at the back.






However, this can be greatly improved by angling the saw when cutting, with this saw you can get 3 teeth engaged with the wood. Not brilliant, but the cut will be a lot better. The photo shows hopefully how when starting a cut the corner of the wood 'sinks' into the gullet of the tooth and makes starting any cut difficult. By drawing the saw backwards initially you present the back side of the tooth which has a much lower cutting angle and will help to start the cut. As you start to make a kerf you engage more and more teeth lifting the wood out of the gullet which enables you to start to cut pushing forward.






If you have a broken tooth, or teeth that are big and small (Cows and Calves) for most sawing you won't notice. However when sawing thin material the missing tooth or the calve (low tooth) will effectively reduce the PPI and cause the saw to suddenly judder / a 'rough' spot as you push forward. It's extremely unpleasant and does not help you to either keep the saw straight or cut cleanly. 

The only way to remedy a broken tooth or a calve is to sharpen the saw until the tooth reappears on the saw line.


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## Jacob (25 Jun 2016)

What I like about the minimalist approach is that you end up with a scruffy looking old saw which actually cuts like magic, and after enough use still looks scruffy and old but shiny in part, from use.


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

Marking out the spacing of the teeth can be done in a number of ways, this is just one of the solutions. I will typically use one of the spacing patterns available on:

http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/index.html

This WEB site has a lot of good information as well as a library of saw tooth templates. Down load the template that you want and print it out. Most importantly check the actual TPI that is printed, my printer reduces the size so a 13 TPI is actually a 14 TPI., this is what I used. The printed sheet on A4 is too small for the full length of the saw, so I print out a couple of sheets and carefully join them together. My weapon of choice is sellotape!






Trim to the right length and wrap is over the saw plate and either stick it to the plate or just clamp it with the saw in the vice. I normally just clamp it, however the main thing is that it must be tightly wrapped around the plate.


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

To ensure that you file at the correct angle consistent a simple jig is required. A small piece of wood with a small hole drilled into it and marked with a line at 8 degrees is all that is required. Push the end of the file into the hole aligning one of the three faces if the file with the line. 

I normall place a groove in the top of the jig so I know which way is up and also make an arrow pointing to the heel (handle).






The jig is a little dirty as I took the photos after I'd used it.






I've recommended a slim file, the reason is that each file has three useable sides, and a slim file is just big enough for 11 to 14 TPI that when filing the teeth you won't sink more than half the file into the gullet. This leaves the three other sides unused.


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## Bm101 (25 Jun 2016)

Thank you Deema. A fantastic series of lessons for the uninitiated like me. Please keep it up! Threads like this are such a great source of information and experienced know how. Brilliant. =D>


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

Your now ready to start urging the teeth. One of the reasons I advocate this method for anyone starting to learn how to sharpen a saw is that repetition builds up both confidence and technique. You will have to file each tooth about 4 or five times, for a 12" saw at 14 TPI thats circa 840 individual file strokes.

The first stage is to transfer the markings on the paper pattern to the saw plate. I do this with the file. Place the file exactly on the line and take a single full stroke of the file. Move to the next line and repeat.






The better you do this the easer it will be to cut the teeth. Inevitably you will make an error and some will be slightly off the line, don't worry, it's easy to fix. As you can see, mine were a bit sloppy in their position. I could suggest I did this deliberately for the sake of this thread, but I didn't, my eye sight lets me down!

Concentrate on letting the fie do the work, don't press down on the file, let it cut. Keep the file level (horizontal) and as you would when sawing push straight without veering off. Try to maintain the same length of Stoke and the same pressure on the file. You will now have made c178 stones with the file, your technique will have improved and you will now be getting a feel for the file.

The file should be held so that the jig arrow points to the heel. The jig should be held level (horizontal) along its length (inline with the saw blade ps length) so that the file creates an 8 degree face on the front of the tooth. The focus should be in keeping everything level, maintaining a constant strip length and letting he file cut. It's sounds far mire difficult than it is. Just hav a go, you will be amazed ow quickly you pick it up.

When you've finished marking out the tooth spacing remove the template after carefully checking you haven't missed any!


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

Take a black marker and run it along the teeth, this helps you see where you've been in the next pass along the teeth. 

You now take a second pass, one stroke in every notch. DO NOT be tempted to do more than one stroke, this technique requires you to do everything consistently. Start at one end and file until you end up at the other, it does not matter which direction you go in, toe to heel, or heel to toe.

Right, you will now start to see the teeth developing. They will typically be about 1/3 of the way to being fully formed. Have a good look at the black tops of the teeth, there will inevitably be some that are wider than others and some that are narrower. Without some correction the wide ones will develop into big teeth, Cows, and the narrow ones into small teeth below the tooth line, Calves. Study the pattern and you will see that a wide top will be next to a Short top, you need to reduce the length of the long top by moving the groove (gullet) away from the short top.






Now, start at one end and file every gullet again, one long even strokes in every gullet. As you come to a tooth form that has a long and short top, concentrate, place the file in the gullet, and push gently as the arrow shows towards the long top whilst taking the stroke. As you push the file keep looking at the length of the long top, stop the stroke short if you reduce the long top to the same length as those you have already filed. The short top won't have reduced. You may not be able to even up the tops in this pass, don't worry, you will by the time you've done the next pass or two. DO NOT try to correct the tooth form by taking more than one stroke of the file.


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## deema (25 Jun 2016)

Now, repeat filing for one end of the plate to the other, correcting and teeth as you go. Sometimes you will have to correct a narrow top by filing a long top that is either side of it. 

You keep going until the teeth look to be fully formed. This will typically be after about 4 or 5 repeated filing passes. If it's all gone wrong, don't worry, just strip off the teeth and have another go! It's highly unlikely that you won't have after 840 stokes of the file not arrived at a good result.

The following photo shows the saw plate after the second, third and forth pass. This is to show how the teeth form and is NOT what you should do. The middle of the blade is after the second pass (following the first pass to mark the blade) the left hand side is after three passes and the Righ hand side after four passes. You will see some cows and calves as a result of my poor marking in the middle, reduced on the left and gine on the right. Sorry for the photo, I forgot to wipe off the fillings. I only corrected the cows and calves fully during the fourth pass.






The saw is not finished yet!


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## Jake (25 Jun 2016)

Jacob":2tt2c3ls said:


> What I like about the minimalist approach is that you end up with a scruffy looking old saw which actually cuts like magic, and after enough use still looks scruffy and old but shiny in part, from use.



Do you see some of yourself in this?

/psychobabble


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## Jake (25 Jun 2016)

What a great guide by the way Deema.


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## bugbear (25 Jun 2016)

Jacob":2iw7c67g said:


> ...a good dose of raw linseed oil (all over) and a sharpen say 30 minutes max. The wood and the steel will then polish up with use. Even a very rusty blade develops a black/brown low-friction and reflective sheen, which *after a great deal of use* will go steely grey in patches.



I find simply rubbing dirty steel with Silicon Carbide (wet 'n' dry) very much more practical and effective than rubbing steel with wood, which works very slowly indeed as you say.

BugBear


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## MarkDennehy (25 Jun 2016)

Brilliant guide for us newbies Deema, thank you!


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## Jacob (25 Jun 2016)

bugbear":bdw8msnl said:


> Jacob":bdw8msnl said:
> 
> 
> > ...a good dose of raw linseed oil (all over) and a sharpen say 30 minutes max. The wood and the steel will then polish up with use. Even a very rusty blade develops a black/brown low-friction and reflective sheen, which *after a great deal of use* will go steely grey in patches.
> ...


No you missed the point: you'd brush off loose rust before applying oil, and just the first few strokes would leave a skid mark but after that "a very rusty blade develops a black/brown low-friction and reflective sheen" and is perfectly usable in that condition. It may go on to look more steel-like but with no particular advantage


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## deema (26 Jun 2016)

The teeth are now formed and relatively sharp, the next step is to apply some set, this is where one tooth is bent to one side of the blade and the next to the opposite side of the blade. This is repeated down the entire blade. The alternative bending of the teeth effectively increases the width of the blade and when cutting creates a slot or kerf that is wider than the blade. The kerf needs to be wider than the blade to stop the blade from binding and getting trapped in the wood.

How much set should be applied to the teeth? well, in theory the bigger the teeth the more set that is required as the cut will be rougher and the walls of the kerf won't be as even which might trap the blade. If you saw hardwood you don't need as much set as you do for softwoods which are generally more resinous and 'stickier' wood. If you cut Dovetails with the saw you want a fine kerf to help with accuracy. 

Just a note, the only real difference between a Dovetail saw and a tennon saw is
1. The death of cut, that is from the teeth to the back is narrower for a Dovetail saw
2. The saw plate is often just a smigin narrower on a Dovetail saw.

Neither of these IMO really make the saws different and you can use a well tuned tennon saw to cut Divetails.

What to do in practice? well I add as little set as I can get away with on the saw, I know I can always add a little more set if I need it, but I can't reduce the set once I've done it very effectively (apart from sharpening the teeth which reduces the amount of set due to the teeth being bent. The tips of the teeth being bent the furthest away from the plate, sharpening reduces the tip height and therefore the amount they are bent away from the plate.)

Initially you want to add a few thousands of an inch of total set, that's the width of the kerf compared to the blade. 

The Eclipse saw set has a hammer (moving bit) and an anvil that can be rotated to different positions. All Ecliose saw sets that I have seen (fine and course) go up to 12. I normally leave my Eclipse set at either 10 or 11 for a backed saw. The difference between the two is so small it's not worth worrying about.

With the saw in the vice place the saw set on the blade and starting at the heel (handle end) on the first tooth set the saw set down on the teeth with the hammer positioned exactly on the tooth. Squeeze the handle and keep looking at the tooth. You will see the tooth move, now continue sneezing, and you will start to see the tooth slightly deform, remember the pressure needed to move the tooth and the higher pressure needed to deform the tooth (squash it a little). For all subsequent teeth you want to apply a pressure a little more than needed to move the tooth and not enough to deform the tooth. You can normally feel a difference between moving the tooth and when you start to deform it. Sounds complex, but once you've done it, you will know what you are 'feeling for'

Move the saw set missing the next tooth and set the third tooth. Repeat for every other tooth....1,3,5,7,9...

Turn the saw around and repeat for the 2,4,6,8,10....tooth, in other words the teeth that you haven't set. You will now set the teeth.






You can see how the hammer is positioned on the tooth and also to the left the teeth set with one tooth bent to one side and the next the opposite way (this was done for the photo)

The first few teeth are the most difficult to set, as the Eclipse guide is not resting fully on all of the teeth and needs to balanced. Be careful not to let the Ecliose drop down the hammer needs to be positioned so that it pushes just under the tip of the tooth.


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## deema (26 Jun 2016)

The next step is to finally sharpen the teeth ready for use. Setting the teeth will have damaged the tips slightly, so we need to resolve this.

Take a black marker pen and blacken all of the teeth again.

Taking the second cut file, and run it ONCE only along the teeth just as you did when stripping off the teeth initially. You will now see bright shiny fiats on all of the teeth, they should be very small and even in size. 

Starting at the heel (I would always recommend starting at the heel as these teeth will rarely if ever get used when sawing, and any 'wobbles' in technique as you are starting won't matter) file each gullet again stopping the stroke when you have reduced the shinny flat by half its width. Move to the next tooth and file again, this time the shinny flat surface of that was halved will disappear altogether and the untouched shinny flat surface will be halved when this occurs. 

Repeat all of the way down the saw.

If you have done this well, you have now sharpened the saw. 

To test the saw shapness (being very, very careful) I press my finger onto the teeth after I've sharpened each one, if it sticks it's sharp. I read somewhere this phenomenon, and didn't understand it until I tried it, the guy could wrote it called it sticky sharp. 

If the saw is not sticky sharp, you haven't removed the flats completely from the tops of the teeth. The simplest way to resolve this is to start at the heel and file half a stroke on every tooth all the way down the blade and test again. DO NOT try to individually sharpen teeth until you have some experience!!


Reattach the handle. If the handle is loose when you have done up the bolts, or you broke some of the studs, don't worry, remember it cost 99p or some small amount, it's not a museum piece. I use araldyte, No More Nails or something similar to glue the handle onto the blade and any broken studs back to make it look nice. You will not saw well unless the blade is held firm. Don't worry, you won't need to remove the handle for subsequent sharpening. With a little care, only you will ever know it's glued!






I think it looks rather nice now, and does not resemble the awful thing I bought.


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## deema (26 Jun 2016)

Test the saw. If you find it is sticking in the Kerf add a little more set. If it pulls to one side,you've not applied even pressure when setting the teeth and the side opposite to the direction the saw pulls in is under set, reset these teeth.

This saw cuts reality nicely, this is a piece of oak, and you can see even with a RIP pattern there is very little blow out in the back edge of the cut.





Thickness of the plate




The width of the kerf





I test a saw normally by sawing a hardwood, the reason is to see if I've been careless and left a big tooth it will let me know. A big tooth can be detected by a sudden jolt whe pushing forward on the saw, you will feel it if it's a problem. To find it I push the saw forward slowly until I feel the jolt and then stop, using a black marker, mark the blade where it's entering the wood. Remove the blade and look towards the toe from the black marker to find it. 

The technique I've described is designed to prevent you having this problem, by doing everything consistently and not 'filing' each tooth this should not occur. 

To resolve the 'big tooth' use the second cut file to create flats on top of all of the teeth. Check that all teeth have been flattened by doing as many full strokes of the blade as necessary. Your not stripping off the teeth, just creating flats. Now form the teeth again sharpen, set and final sharpen.

To sharpen this saw took me just under 30 minutes, that's from start to finish. In total, it's taken just under an hour of my time, spread over a few days. 

The saw cuts as well as any saw I've ever used, or the premium high end saws I've tested at shows. Total cost less tha. £20, which has included buying all of the equipmeant needed. Another saw will only cost me......99p!


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## deema (26 Jun 2016)

Finally to maintain the saw periodically apply some silicon free wax, it will make it cut better as well as act as a rust inhibitor.

When the saw starts to loose it's sharpness and does not cut well, you simply using the triangular file, sharpen every gullet half a stroke. This will normally bring it back to being 'sticky sharp'. The next time you sharpen it you will need to use the 2nd cut file to create flats, and then just sharpen again. This stops the teeth becoming uneven.

I find I need to reset the teeth every second or third sharpen. 

Once sharpened initially it takes me about 10 minutes to re-sharpen a saw. A lifetime of sharpening will only reduce the plate depth by a few millimetres!

As already suggested, if I want a saw with a different tooth spacing I buy another 99p saw.

To improve my saw sharpening technique I occasionally buy old saws and do them up. If I don't want them I either give them away of sell them on eBay. If you sell the saw on eBay you can end up recovering more than you've spent and make a small profit. A 99p saw sharpened with all of its problems solved will sell for c£30. Not bad for an hours work!

Good luck, and have a go, it's not difficult.


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## NazNomad (26 Jun 2016)

My handsaw collection is pretty dire, but now I'm inspired to improve it..


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## rdesign (26 Jun 2016)

Thank you for the detailed post. Is there quality new equipment to buy to sharpen and set a blade or do you recommend getting second hand gear?. 

Links to recommendations would be appreciated.

Something I have been wanting to learn about. 

Regards Richard


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## deema (26 Jun 2016)

The Eclipse 77 is still made its not called the 77, and looks a little different, but it's the same setting tool, below is one source:

https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/hand-to ... 4-370r-(77)-saw-tooth-setter/p/ECL5530814G?utm_campaign=pla+-+&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping-pla&utm_keyword=ECL5530814G&istCompanyId=6aa6787b-063e-4414-802d-129f235df603&istItemId=aqrxiaipm&istBid=tztx

For me, the bronze Eclipse 77 is bullet proof and you can fairly confidently buy a secondhand one for a lot less than a new one. Either option you choose will work well.


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## deema (26 Jun 2016)

Finally, a photo of the finished teeth


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## CStanford (27 Jun 2016)

Flawless restoration but the widespread pitting is, well, a pity.


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## deema (27 Jun 2016)

Thank you for your kind comment. You also raise a good point that I'd not covered and really should add my take on it. 

The pitting is as you say a pity and it actually looks worse than it really is in the photo. They are actually only just below the surface and could in most cases have been removed with some abrasive paper. I wanted to show what could be done with an hours work, and also not have the worry that someone would follow the thread and use too much effort with the abrasive and either reduce the thickness of the plate sufficiently at the brass back line to make it vulnerable to loosing tension (the brass back not pinching the blade enough) or uneven along the tooth line making for a poor cutting action cut or dulling unevenly. So after looking at the 'problem' which is more cosmetic, (you can see how well the blade cleaned up in other shots that aren't as close up) the pits don't actually reduce the effective width of any tooth to any real degree by the having its tip exactly on a pit I left it as it is.

My original plan for this topic was to buy some Spring steel and then replace the plate and show how for not a great outlay that a nice handle and brass back can be used from a discarded saw to create a 'as new' saw with what ever depth of plate the user required. I decided against it at the last minute as I thought it might put people off, thinking that this was the only solution for any secondhand saw. (I also don't need another hand saw....they collection seems to grow like weeds)

In the end I decided that a new plate for an old saw may be the topic for another thread at some point.

The saws performance from a feel / use perspective is not in my opinion affected by the pitting. 

For anyone choosing a secondhand saw it is highly likely that the plate will have some pitting / rust. What is critical is that along the tooth line and for about a 1cm back from the tooth line (lots of steel for repeated sharpening) that the pitting is not very deep. If it's just below the surface it won't IMO affect the performance of the saw, if it's too deep say 1/4 way through the blade it could if it becomes a cutting edge / tooth top cause the tooth to wear mch faster than the other teeth and create a poor sawing performance. If many teeth are affected the saw won't stay sharp for as long as it should. Equally when sharpening a saw with pitting that deep the file will cut mire aggressively on a pit as there is less metal to remove. 

For 99p light pitting which does not affect the saws performance can be tolerated, you can clean them off if you want. If it's very deeply pitted, walk on by unless it's a beautiful handle / brass back and you fancy buying some Spring steel and replacing the plate. There are lots of secondhand saws to be bought.


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## CStanford (27 Jun 2016)

Then a fantastic outcome on all fronts!


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## ColeyS1 (8 Oct 2016)

Just read the entire thread ! Thanks for posting crystal clear instructions on how to renovate a saw. Looking forward to seeing how your 'how to' guide might affect the tenon saw I just bought.
Cheers

Coley


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## nabs (8 Jan 2017)

i was glad to see this excellent guide get a mention in another saw sharpening thread recently, since it inspired me to have a go at retoothing one of my backsaws. 

I have tried this a couple of times before - with disapoinnting results - using two techniques that Paul Sellers describes. Both techniques involve using a junior hacksaw to create a notch to direct subsquent tooth shaping with a file. 

My first attempt involved affixing a hacksaw blade (with suitable PPI) to the side of the saw as a guide - the results were disastorous, I just couldn't get the hand of it at all. I had better results creating a template out of a piece of scrap wood but it was fiddly. Destructions from Mr Sellers are here:
https://paulsellers.com/2014/09/cutting-new-teeth-a-saw-toothing-retro-for-worldwide-woodworkers/

So I decided to have one last go, this time following Deema's guide, and (after a couple of attemps!) the result - although far from perfect - is not too bad. 

I suspect I'd have more sucess with the other techiques now I've had a bit more practice, but I found it a lot easier to use a file directly to mark out the tooth spacing rather than using a junior hacksaw. Here are my top tips:

* I found that using double sided sticky tape to stick down the paper template meant the file gripped the tape during the initial stroke and this made it easier to start the file without it skipping sideways
* using a new and unused saw file helps (a lot!)
* if you are dodery old duffer like me then your eyes will not work properly - I can just about manage to do 12 PPI (and bigger) sharpening without aids, but for this one (14 PPI) I needed a mangifier (see pic). This helped a lot, but I found it was harder to keep the file level and perpendicular when you can't see your hands. This was fixed by stopping every now and then to lift he specs and blink blurily to see where my hands had ended up.
* I followed the advice in this guide and made sure I did exactly the same number of strokes on each tooth while doing the initial shaping, no matter how tempting it was to go "freestyle" and fix the odd wonky one. I don't know why this works , but it does.

The stage where it is easist to make mistakes is when doing the iniital strokes that mark out the spacing of the teeth - it seems obvious but it is very important to concentrate and make careful deliberate movements to place the file on the same spot on the template for each tooth. In my first attempt I found myself gettinng into a quick rhythm like I do when sharpening which, although fast, was disatorously inacurate. I think you can get away with going by a sense of rhythm when sharpening because the gullets provide a guide, but not so when retoothing.

Having not ruined the teeth, I also did some work on the handle, fixing the chipped horn (you may be able to spot my "invisible" join between old and new!) and reshaped the handle which had a rather uncomfortable bump under the palm originally. These two steps were dangerously close to actual woodworking, rather than tool fiddling, so I had to have a lie down afterwards.

I am not sure how good the result is, but it does seem to work (allowing for my limited abiity for sawing in a straight line), so cheers Deema!
Nick


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## Bm101 (8 Jan 2017)

Excellent addition to an excellent thread. Cheers Nabs.


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## custard (8 Jan 2017)

Excellent thread, well done Deema!

=D>


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jan 2017)

Some guides if anyone's interested
http://norsewoodsmith.com/files/file/sa ... plates.pdf


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## nabs (9 Jan 2017)

..having basically dismissed the "stick a hacksaw blade to the side of your saw to act as a template" technique in my previous post, I happened to notice that it is recomended in the universally admired _The Essential Woodworker _ which just goes to show what little I know!

Mr Wearing also says "... ( when sawing tenon cheeks) the longer the saw stays in the sawcut the greater the risk of inaccuracy... An improvement is to have a tennon saw recut removving the crosscut teeth, generally about 15 tpi and replacing these by ripsaw teeth, 10 tpi... The greater speed of the ripsaw gives an improvement in accuracy"

what do people say to all that? Does it only apply to tennon cheeks?


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## Jacob (9 Jan 2017)

It applies to cutting along the grain - that's what a rip saw is for - tenon cheeks and elsewhere.
A cross cut saw can drift off line more easily when cutting along the grain. Probably because it doesn't push out the saw dust as well as the chisel action of a rip saw tooth.


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## nabs (10 Jan 2017)

I see - what about tooth size? The excerpt _could_ also be read as "bigger teeth = fewer strokes = more accurate (ripsawing)" - is that generally true?


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## Jacob (10 Jan 2017)

nabs":3q0u786k said:


> I see - what about tooth size? The excerpt _could_ also be read as "bigger teeth = fewer strokes = more accurate (ripsawing)" - is that generally true?


More to do with thickness of material - you need at least 3 (?) teeth in the cut or thereabouts. Then there's an upper limit where you wouldn't have the strength to cut with very big teeth - hence two handed saws etc.
Then the gullets have to be big enough to contain the sawdust generated otherwise they stop cutting - hence large saws with groups of teeth separated by large gullets. and so on!


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## bugbear (10 Jan 2017)

nabs":2qn3s2e5 said:


> I see - what about tooth size? The excerpt _could_ also be read as "bigger teeth = fewer strokes = more accurate (ripsawing)" - is that generally true?



Yes - but there are other parameters governing tooth size.

BugBear


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## pedder (12 Jan 2017)

the other idea is have as many edges in the cut as possible, because edges do the cutting. Just not so many edges that the gullets clogg.


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## Mr.Mika (13 Jan 2017)

Great instructions, thanks! 

I did re-toothing too, to a S&J Leapfrog 10" open handled saw from 1920s. 

3 times that is... first 2 attempts with a paper template, but I was too sloppy with placing the file, or it slipped. Uneven teeth. Actually the first try was ruined because of too large a file: the teeth got way too small, and also I think the 16 tpi I was aiming for was too fine anyway.

Then I came across the idea of using threaded rod as the template, and it worked really well. I got a piece of M12 rod, which is 1.75 mm pitch = 14.5 tpi (I may mix ppi and tpi here, but I don't think it matters either way), cut it to length and ground 1 side of it flat with a bench grinder, and maybe a little of the opposite side too to make it easier to clamp. Then I put it in a metal vise with the blade + piece of wood on the other side of blade, and then made a mark with a hacksaw following the thread. After that placing the file was very easy. 

It worked really well, though at some points the result wasn't perfect, probably because the thread was so coarse that there was room for the hacksaw blade to move sideways. If I was to cut 12 tpi teeth, I'd take M6 rod & use every other thread.

The saw works great. I haven't bought a saw set yet, so the saw has no set, but it cuts very nicely even though maybe it could be a little lighter to push. I've cut a few dovetails with it, and I'm very pleased with the results. It feels more comfortable and more accurate than the disposable-blade Japanese pull saws I've used until now.

I really like the fact that I can now sharpen a saw like this, even if the teeth are in very bad shape. No more throwaway saws for me after the current ones are blunt.


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## bridger (9 Feb 2017)

nabs":32u0vlxt said:


> ......
> These two steps were dangerously close to actual woodworking, rather than tool fiddling, so I had to have a lie down afterwards.
> Nick
> .....




Snork.


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## technium (25 Apr 2017)

deema":13cs2wo4 said:


> To ensure that you file at the correct angle consistent a simple jig is required. A small piece of wood with a small hole drilled into it and marked with a line at 8 degrees is all that is required. Push the end of the file into the hole aligning one of the three faces if the file with the line.
> 
> I normall place a groove in the top of the jig so I know which way is up and also make an arrow pointing to the heel (handle).
> 
> ...



Hi deema

Can i just ask a question about your use of the jig?

I have started to follow your instructions to do a restore on a gents dovetail saw, Ive removed the handle and put the rusty blade in a vinegar bath and have managed to remove the rust although I left the steel back on which I forgot to do but will remove the back next and clean up that part of the blade.

I have used the 2nd cut file to remove all the teeth and make sure the blade is level ready for re-toothing (is that a word?) and I have printed off the template for a 14PPI which I think you mentioned would be good for a dovetail saw. I have yet to make your jig which seems simple enough but want to make sure im right on how you use it before I start the next process.

Do you rest the wood blank on your vice and have the top of the blade line up with the hole in the jig and then feed the file (at the correct angle) through the hole and onto the blade? Could you maybe take a pic of the way that part is done?

Great instructions mate, just this part I am unsure of.

Also as a side note, the blade after the vinegar (and bath of baking soda to neutralize) has turned a dull blue colour, is there a good way to get it silver and shiny again?

thanks again

Colin


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## deema (25 Apr 2017)

When making the file jig, I drill a hole and then use a protractor to draw the required angle on the jig adjacent to the hole. I then push the file into the hole lining up one side of the file with the line.

After the vinegar it's just a case of polishing the blade with autosol or similar. I've never tried to get it 'silver' shiny, just to be reflective to help with alignment when sawing.

Hope this helps


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## technium (26 Apr 2017)

Thanks Deema

With the jig, Im not sure how you then line up the jig to use with the blade. Do you rest the wood on the lip of the vice and have the height of the blade in the vice upto the bottom of the file hole? No sure ive asked that correctly.

thanks

Colin


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## nabs (26 Apr 2017)

you can see the guide being used here (around 14 minutes in). 

[youtube]wPOHWfcEJeI[/youtube]
the video covers the retoothing process that Deema describes - worth a watch (incidentally, I really like the chap who presents it - there is a lot of good stuff on his blog(s)). 

https://logancabinetshoppe.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/episode-42-re-toothing-a-hand-saw/


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## technium (26 Apr 2017)

Brilliant, looks like I had it completely wrong but thanks for the video too.

really appreciate it.

Colin


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## FatmanG (16 Jan 2020)

Without a doubt one of the very best threads I've ever read. Thanks Seems for taking the time to put it together. =D> 
Glenn


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## stevek (5 Feb 2021)

Yes its a great post and as I have a lovely old brass backed tenon saw that I bought at a bootsale only because it looked so lovely, seeing this thread is just perfect. One question I have is the file, slim triangular but looking online at them some are listed as single cut “double ended” I can see the idea being good but given that the file is only six or seven inches is this enough for our purposes? Any ideas?
Steve.


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## deema (5 Feb 2021)

That’s a good question, and for me it really depends on what TPI I’m trying to cut. The higher the TPI (smaller teeth) the stroke you need to take on the file is greatly reduced. You will be surprised just how quickly a file cuts the teeth. A double ended is useful for high tooth counts, as the length of stroke required for each pass on each tooth is very short. A single ended file just ends up with half of it being wasted, not used. For the TPI I propose in the thread, a double ended file isn’t what you want, you need a single ended file.


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## stevek (5 Feb 2021)

Many thanks for the speedy response Deema, thats very much appriciated and once again, many thanks for putting all this together.
All the best,
Steve.


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## CoolNik (5 Mar 2022)

deema said:


> Now that the handle is cleaned up, smooth and fits your hand you need to add some form of finish. The conventional wisdom is to avoid varnish as this can rub your hand and cause blisters / sore areas. Well, if your sawing for hours every day, that's good advice, however, virtually everyone precessional or hobby orientated only uses hand tools for a short period I would use what ever you want!
> 
> Personally I use boiled linseed oil often referred to s BLO followed by a coat of bees wax.
> 
> ...


Great advice about the danger of fire - thanks for that in addition to all the other information you are providing. Cheers, Robyn


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## CoolNik (5 Mar 2022)

deema said:


> The teeth are now formed and relatively sharp, the next step is to apply some set, this is where one tooth is bent to one side of the blade and the next to the opposite side of the blade. This is repeated down the entire blade. The alternative bending of the teeth effectively increases the width of the blade and when cutting creates a slot or kerf that is wider than the blade. The kerf needs to be wider than the blade to stop the blade from binding and getting trapped in the wood.
> 
> How much set should be applied to the teeth? well, in theory the bigger the teeth the more set that is required as the cut will be rougher and the walls of the kerf won't be as even which might trap the blade. If you saw hardwood you don't need as much set as you do for softwoods which are generally more resinous and 'stickier' wood. If you cut Dovetails with the saw you want a fine kerf to help with accuracy.
> 
> ...


Okay Deema, I have been closely reading and absorbing all your instructions and I think I understand them all…..that was until these instructions threw up something called “Eclipse Saw Set”? I admit I am now totally lost - what is this Eclipse Saw Set? Where do I get it - do I need one for each saw or does 1 work for all saws that I am trying to sharpen? Cheers Robyn


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## CoolNik (5 Mar 2022)

nabs said:


> you can see the guide being used here (around 14 minutes in).
> 
> [youtube]wPOHWfcEJeI[/youtube]
> the video covers the retoothing process that Deema describes - worth a watch (incidentally, I really like the chap who presents it - there is a lot of good stuff on his blog(s)).
> ...


Deema, this three has been delayed so I can’t see the jig in use. Any chance I could persuade you to take a photo of the jig in action? It’s the only part of your explanation that I can’t follow. I presume that the file I have to buy would be the smallest for the back saw and slightly bigger file for the 2 saws that have to be between 20-28” long? Does the file have to remain at the 8 deg. for all saws that we sharpen or is there a different angle for the bigger saws? I am trying really hard to understand your instructions and this is the only part I have questions about. You whole post, including photos are AAA+++. Regards, Robyn


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## deema (5 Mar 2022)

@CoolNik 
Eclipse no 77 saw sets can be bought new, you really only need one. There are two as I describe in the thread, but for the saws you have identified either will do, you dont need to worry. It’s only when you get to say 16PPI and above you need a saw set with a smaller hammer, which you can just file to size it you have a thick hammer version.





Eclipse 94-370R Saw Tooth Setter


The Spear & Jackson Eclipse Saw Tooth Setter will enable you set the teeth on your saw. Set is the amount by which the teeth on a saw protrude from the side of the blade. It is the set which creates the kerf to be wider than the blade and therefore prevents binding as the non-cutting part of...




www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk




But the originals can be usually bought a lot cheaper on auctions sites e.g.
View attachment 130936


There is a small range of saw files for different PPI, just choose the right one for the job, they are generally longer the lower the PPI. This is a good reference site and explains about files and gives a table of file sizes to PPI.








Concerning saw files (which I am now selling)


I am now selling Grobet Glardon* Swiss needle and Bahco taper saw files, which are among the best files made today. While I don't carry every size (and certainly not as many as were available decad...



www.blackburntools.com





I only ever use 8 degrees for all saws, it works for everything. Once you have learnt how to sharpen you can experiment with a short saw on different angles if you want……if takes say 10mm a to change the angle. I don’t bother with fleam for cross cuts on backed saw, never found any real difference. I do for panel saws, with big teeth it does make a difference. But, for starters just sharpen RIP a couple of saw.


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## deema (5 Mar 2022)

@CoolNik, just found that Paul SelleRS has a uTube on how to use the saw set and a good explanation about them.


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## dannyr (5 Mar 2022)

the example saw worked well despite the pitting

but l'd be careful here as a pit near a tooth base can easily lead to the tooth breaking off when setting - then it's start all over again 

pitting away from the tooth line is, i thnk, just a cosmetic issue

where i live it''s still poss with a bit of patience to find 1960's S&J etc with only surface rust, and a wood but not pretty handle, for £2 -- couple of days ago got such - one back £3 and one hand £2 both hardly used, with only superficial rust , cut well as is but i'll give them one swipe of the file ea tooth -. mind you a fellow a couple of stalls along was trying to sell v similar ex school back saws for £25 ea

interestingly the 26in 9tpi S&J handsaw was, i think, as originally sold, and cuts well, good steel, but was cross cut angle and a fine set, but with teeth filed (or maybe just punched/stamped) straight across (no 'fleam' i believe, but tell me if i'm misusing that word)


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## dannyr (5 Mar 2022)

ps there's a post above saying that Garlick (several brand names) were the only trad saw maker left (apart from 'boutique') - when the post was written that was not quite true as Atkinson were very much in business (only a stone's throw away, but very much a different business, employing several skilled saw smiths, making handsaws and circular) - sadly Mr Atkinson retired, sold the business and the works have closed in the last year or so - maybe some or all of the operation continue elsewhere?, i don't know


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## CoolNik (5 Mar 2022)

deema said:


> @CoolNik, just found that Paul SelleRS has a uTube on how to use the saw set and a good explanation about them.



Deeema, what would you think of this saw, on eBay now, sharpened and ready to go, I think Spear & Jackson 24" 8tpi crosscut hand saw Restored, sharpened, tuned | eBay
and this same seller has a couple of others. - he sells under forces-hand tools

let me know what you think - buying from him means I don’t have the hassle of getting someone to help with gettting the saws sharpened. Cheers Robyn


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## deema (5 Mar 2022)

I think I would be looking for something like this…..I haven’t used one, but the write up sounds like a good saw





Tools - Saws - Dorchester Saws - Workshop Heaven







www.workshopheaven.com


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## hlvd (7 Mar 2022)

Thank you for that very informative post, most interesting.
One thing I’m curious about is when you file the teeth I assume you’ll create a burr, is anything done about this or is it too insignificant to affect the cut?


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## deema (7 Mar 2022)

I’m sure there will be a small burr, but for a saw you don’t worry about it. The main thing to achieve is nicely spaced even teeth, no cows and calves and no flat spots on top of any teeth. The saw teeth when placed on your palm should be ‘sticky’ to your skin. It’s a test I was taught, and you only really appreciate what it means when you have a nice sharp saw to test.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Mar 2022)

By coincidence, I have just completed an article for my website on "*Making a dovetail saw: Shaping, Filing and Setting".*

This is essentially starting from scratch, but with the aid of a machine punched saw blank (not sharpened) and brass back. The article is about shaping the handle, fitting the back, and sharpening setting the 16 ppi teeth.

This is aimed at the novice in that I offer some foolproof methods. For example, a method to aid in setting the teeth (ever tried setting 16 ppi?!  ).

The result is a really wonderful dovetail saw ...







Link to article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MakingADovetailSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CoolNik (11 Mar 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> By coincidence, I have just completed an article for my website on "*Making a dovetail saw: Shaping, Filing and Setting".*
> 
> This is essentially starting from scratch, but with the aid of a machine punched saw blank (not sharpened) and brass back. The article is about shaping the handle, fitting the back, and sharpening setting the 16 ppi teeth.
> 
> ...


Hi Derek,

I am that novice at sharpening that your article is written for. I found your article to be clear, understandable and hopefully repeatable!

thanks very much for taking the time to write up your project, I hope that I will be able to locate some older saws that I can learn sharpening on and use them!
Regards from NZ
robyn


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## CoolNik (11 Mar 2022)

CoolNik said:


> Hi Derek,
> 
> I am that novice at sharpening that your article is written for. I found your article to be clear, understandable and hopefully repeatable! What a marvelous saw you have made. The handle is wonderful and rich in colour….let us know how the saw works. I have been on the LV site to purchase the same Veritas saw file holder but unfortunately it is out of stock. <sigh>…such is life these days.
> 
> ...


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