# Rutlands wood planes



## lurker (9 Jul 2009)

After reading Big soft moose's thread about Mujingfang planes, I looked at rutlands site.

They have (Wizer look away!) a wide range of Dakota ones -Chinese Tiawanese, hong kong. Some are around £14 (on offer) are buyable just to play with.

Anyone got experiences?
Which of the three patterns are best?

I was thinking of getting one & reshaping to a (fit my hand) Block


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## wizer (9 Jul 2009)

oh _come on_ Jim!! Why don't you just send the money to me? I'd be happy to treat you badly and then fail on you.


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## studders (9 Jul 2009)

lurker":xjpdqjko said:


> After reading Big soft moose's thread about Mujingfang planes, I looked at rutlands site.
> 
> They have (Wizer look away!) a wide range of Dakota ones -Chinese Tiawanese, hong kong. Some are around £14 (on offer) are buyable just to play with.
> 
> ...



I couldn't work out if they were Mujingfang or not? The labels look the same as the ones on the Mujingfang that i've seen elsewhere. At that price they've got to be worth a punt.


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## Argus (9 Jul 2009)

.



I can’t comment on the Taiwanese or Japanese style planes at Rutland’s, as I’ve never used them, but I got three of the Mujingfangs the other day and I’m delighted with them. 
They will work straight from the box but after a little bit of basic fettling they perform even better.
There are also some other very favourable and more objective reviews than my opinion on other forums.

The reason I got them in the first place was the high angled iron at 60 degrees – I have some well figured English Oak and it has given them a run for their money on the first outing with great results. You can increase the effective pitch with the addition of a back bevel, but with the sacrifice of increasing the mouth gap - I decided not to bother.

Minor things to be aware:

For some reason they come with a coating of what can only be described as ‘Burgundy boot polish’ presumably to enhance the red appearance of the wood but it does tend to come off on your hands and work. So, first things first, take them all apart and give them a good wash in white spirit.

Next, the iron is exceptionally hard and is ready to go out of the box, but on mine was hand finished, slightly round and a tad off centre. A little work on a diamond plate soon put that right and brought up a very good edge that has endured. The steel is hard work to hone, but keeps an edge for ages.

The soles are good, acceptably flat out of the box and the mouth is beautifully tight with a small brass wear strip on the front – nice touch of thought because these things will sail through a knot when sharp, but the mouth may get a bit of backlash wear without the brass.

The wood is exceptionally well seasoned; even so, I put them all in a plastic bag with a liberal coat of linseed oil for a few days and let them acclimatise to my workshop. There was a tiny amount of unevenness in the soles on all three, to be expected in a wood plane, but a few strokes on a flat plate with some abrasive brought them to a very good level of flatness that they have kept despite the changes in humidity and temperature over the last couple of weeks.

The final thing to master is setting the blades and this comes with practice. Set properly, they are capable of tissue thin shavings on very wayward grain. The finish is as good as any I have used. For the price, exceptional value - plus the 60 degree bed makes all the difference on cantankerous timber.



.


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## lurker (9 Jul 2009)

Studders

Well that was my thinking - was concerned that the photos were misleading

Argus,
Rutlands dont specify Mujingfang, but if I understand you correctly, you are saying the Dakota Hong Kong Style are Mujingfangs ?? 
AND you bought from Rutlands recently ???
The high angle iron is another feature I'm looking for


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## Argus (9 Jul 2009)

.



The photos on Rutland's site can be a bit of a puzzle to say the least......

I got my planes form them about three weeks ago and it said Mujingfang on the box. I think that the Dakota description refers to something else.... They should still have them in stock and the blurb says there's a sale on at the present.

The Taiwanese and the Hong Kong (Mujingfang) planes look similar, but look at the photos carefully and you will see that there's a difference in the iron pitch - as I said, I got the Hong Kong panes because of the higher pitch. I have plenty of conventional planes, but I needed something higher to avoid tear out.

They are definitely not toys.....


.


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## lurker (9 Jul 2009)

Thanks mate

I'm off to order :lol: :lol:


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## newt (9 Jul 2009)

I have had one for 3years and I agree all that Argus says. I have been told that the blade is made from High speed steel, if that is correct, you should be able to use a dry grinder without fear of losing the temper of the blade.


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## woodbloke (9 Jul 2009)

I have one of the middle sized Hong Kong jobbies which is a good addition to the collection  as it provides a decent high angle smoother (or block, as the case may be) for a very reasonable price...and even better with 10% off - Rob


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## Argus (9 Jul 2009)

.

I just had a look at the invoice and it does say Dakota, but they are Mujingfang on the box.


If it helps, there are three in the set of 60 degree pitch planes in three sizes.

Here’s the Rutland product codes on my invoice

AH 1051156	-	127 mm plane
AH 1071156	-	165 mm plane
AH 1072155	-	230 mm plane

The little 127 mm plane is a real beauty - I'm not exaggerating....shavings that float in the air.




.


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## lurker (9 Jul 2009)

Well I've just bought the 230mm

£12.71 delivered \/ 

Argus thanks for your advice - i think I would have given it a miss had you not said they were OK
Was anxious about the Dakota description


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## woodbloke (9 Jul 2009)

lurker":2crb41rk said:


> Was anxious about the Dakota description


I wonder if Tom's got one?..or even a set :lol: - Rob


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## lurker (9 Jul 2009)

woodbloke":1ov94mnc said:


> lurker":1ov94mnc said:
> 
> 
> > Was anxious about the Dakota description
> ...



He ordered them but sent them back when he realised they might not dissapoint him.


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## big soft moose (9 Jul 2009)

lurker":izkh2jyl said:


> woodbloke":izkh2jyl said:
> 
> 
> > lurker":izkh2jyl said:
> ...



nah he bought a set and then sold them at a loss when he got bored with them   

I ordered my mujingfang from Workshop heaven , where they are definitely mujingfang and not that much more than rutlands

that said they havent shown up yet - though it did say on the site that they were on holiday when i ordered

I'll be happy to do a review (although that presuposes that i know what i'm talking about) when they finally arive.


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## Argus (10 Jul 2009)

lurker":2uqbq4hw said:


> After reading Big soft moose's thread about Mujingfang planes, I looked at rutlands site.
> 
> They have (Wizer look away!) a wide range of Dakota ones -Chinese Tiawanese, hong kong. Some are around £14 (on offer) are buyable just to play with.
> 
> ...





As an after thought,

Have a look at the section on Wooden planes in Lee-Valleys site.....

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... at=1,41182 
It's plane 'B' you need to look at - the one with a handle through the middle. This comes loose and I admit to leaving it on the shelf as I do use it 'western fashion' i.e. on the push.... not as a pull-plane as they do in the far east. 

There is a bit more info here than Rutland's provide, but they are the same animals.

Again, I'll emphasise that they feature a high pitch iron, which is why I bought them in the first place. Compare the picture with the angle on the Taiwanese version.


.


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## Dave S (10 Jul 2009)

Argus":tjhq9xfu said:


> This comes loose and I admit to leaving it on the shelf as I do use it 'western fashion' i.e. on the push.... not as a pull-plane as they do in the far east.
> 
> .


I find this thing about pulling rather than pushing rather interesting. My wife is quite certain that her Father used to plane with a push, rather than pull. And having watched a few woodworkers in Taiwan, I've noticed that both methods are used.

Dave


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## wizer (10 Jul 2009)

I think this is a good demo of push / pull (pushes at the end)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbfVAWSeUuQ

and this is what you can do with a jap plane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGlEIcot ... re=channel

:shock:


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## ste_5150 (10 Jul 2009)

Just bought the 230mm - bargain! As already mentioned, worth a punt for that price.


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

ste_5150":2sm17jui said:


> Just bought the 230mm



Well, I thought I had just bought it. 6 days after placing the order (today), I thought "oh yeah, that plane should've arrived by now". Phoned Rutlands and got an un-apologetic sounding person saying the plane is out of stock, discontinued, and if I want the new model, it'll be at normal price, not sale price. 

First annoying thing was that I got no call or email or anything to tell me they won't be sending it. But even more annoying is the fact that they don't even care enough to say "ok, sorry, we didn't have your order and we didn't bother telling you, but we'll do the new version at the sale deal you ordered the old one under".

I cancelled the order and, given the negative feedback I've heard from others in the past, I don't think I'll bother with them again.

:evil:


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

ste_5150":3itck93q said:


> ste_5150":3itck93q said:
> 
> 
> > Just bought the 230mm
> ...



Same here. Not happy seeing as an 'apparently' identical plane is being sold and shown as in stock.


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

studders":8r4ihv1f said:


> Same here. Not happy seeing as an 'apparently' identical plane is being sold and shown as in stock.



B******s! You're right! I just looked on the site and it's the same part number and everything, only not reduced now. It seems they've clearly decided they don't want to sell them at that price and tried to pull a fast one.


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

I've just e-mailed

They accepted my order (I have confirmation) They have a contract to deliver to me at that price.

Their Web site shows the item still exists

Class action anyone??
Where is Jake when you need him


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## wizer (16 Jul 2009)

I think their only obligation is to refund you. You can't make them supply something they effectively don't have.


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

lurker":2r17bfu2 said:


> I've just e-mailed
> 
> They accepted my order (I have confirmation) They have a contract to deliver to me at that price.
> 
> ...



Hmmm? be interested to hear their response as I too have a confirmation e-mail of my order. It does say 'subject to availability' but it does still seem to be on sale at a higher price.


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

Well he has replied -very promptly

Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXXX,

Thank you for placing your order with Rutlands Ltd.

Unfortunately, on your order the Dakota Taiwanese Style Plane has recently become obsolete and unfortunately we will not be able to despatch this particular item on your order as we are out of stock for this item and cannot obtain any more stock in the foreseeable future.

As we cannot supply this item, we will cancel the order for this item alone and any allocation that may have shown for the product (we do not physically take the money until despatch) will ‘drop off’ within the next 2-3 working days.

However, there is the updated version of this plane still available at its standard cost. This can be viewed in more detail by clicking the following link: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/pl ... tyle-plane

Please reply as soon as possible confirming how you wish to proceed with your order and we will act accordingly.

If you have any enquiries or wish to make any other amendments to your order please do not hesitate to contact Rutlands Ltd.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any inconvenience caused by this.

Kind Regards,
.............................................................................................. 

And I sent this back:

Luke,

This is obviously untrue as you are offering the item elsewhere, albeit at a higher price
You entered into a contract by accepting my order - I expect you to fulfil it and at the contracted price

Please refer this to the MD
Suggest to him he looks at 
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 462#389462
Where Rutland's "reputation" is under discussion yet again.

Also tell him I'm off to find the address of Derbyshire Trading Standards office

Expect a prompt reply

regards


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

wizer":3o6sre2i said:


> I think their only obligation is to refund you. You can't make them supply something they effectively don't have.



True, BUT they did accept - I have confirmatory e-mail


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

lurker":zvr3eco7 said:


> Well he has replied -very promptly
> 
> Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXXX...
> 
> Unfortunately, on your order the Dakota Taiwanese Style Plane has recently become obsolete



But they're still selling an identical model that has the same part No?

Hmmmm?


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## big soft moose (16 Jul 2009)

all of which makes me glad that i went with Workshop heaven , all be it at a slightly higher price - true i had a few issues with lack of delivery too - but matthewWH saw my post on here and contacted me imediately by pm to sort it out , without my even having to complain

now thats what you call good old customer service - perhaps rutlands could learn something here...

its also the case that we can learn the lesson about low prices - if you pay peanuts you get monkeyed arround on customer service - IMO its worth paying a little bit more to get decent customer care


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

If this gets nasty & they remove the higher priced one -we may need evidence its still being offered today.

Can I ask people to visit the site confirm its still being offered & make a diary note.

That way you can supply additional witness evidence they are lying.

I don't intend to let this pass. :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## big soft moose (16 Jul 2009)

lurker":1xopse72 said:


> If this gets nasty & they remove the higher priced one -we may need evidence its still being offered today.
> 
> Can I ask people to visit the site confirm its still being offered & make a diary note.
> 
> ...



I'd also suggest taking a screenshot (which if you dont know you can do by pressing alt and print screen - which pastes a screen shot to the clipboard from where it can be pasted into word. ) If you want to be super cautious you could also open a second window to something that establishes the date beyond doubt - like BBC news , or a newspaper etc.
then take a screen grab of with both open


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## wizer (16 Jul 2009)

lurker":3dpfjsme said:


> wizer":3dpfjsme said:
> 
> 
> > I think their only obligation is to refund you. You can't make them supply something they effectively don't have.
> ...



Jim I honestly don't think that matters? I've ordered loads of things online that have ended up being out of stock. That confirmation is just an automated acknowledgement of your order. You might be lucky enough for them to offer you a discount on the newer item, but they certainly are not obligated. It's like going into a shop and asking for a tool and the guy says "yep, hold on" goes out the back to get it but when he returns he's found that it's out of stock. You wouldn't expect him to then magic one up for you.


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

Well good luck Lurker, if they don't honour their offer then they have lost me as a customer.


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

You will note THEY said "the Tiawanese was no longer avialable"

But my order (& the confirmation) talks about Hong Kong


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

They continued to advertise something, as a special offer, that they claim they don't have enough of to fulfill orders. Either they're telling a porkie or their stock control is rubbish. Either way it's not good.


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

Wizer

The point is THEY DO HAVE STOCK, it's just that they don't want to honour the price that they originally accepted (at that point they entered into a contract).


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

Before I saw the further replies, I had emailed them myself to complain. We made the same points.... 

I have kept a screenshot of the current item, showing the date.

I'm not letting it lie either, because it's so unbelievably blatant.


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

lurker":3u11hq9h said:


> You will note THEY said "the Tiawanese was no longer avialable"
> 
> But my order (& the confirmation) talks about Hong Kong



Well I'm confused. I too ordered the Hong Kong plane. They are now offering a similar deal on the Tiawanese plane whilst at the same time selling the same plane at a higher price???? If you check the normal priced plane it says 'in stock', if you check the reduced one it says 'no stock info'.


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

To be honest, it's a simple as this: I put an order in for an item. The same picture, with the same description, in exactly the same place on the website (even down to the order they appear on that particular page) is for sale for a significantly higher price, and they refuse to honour the order, telling me it's "discontinued" and I have to pay more if I want the "new" item.

It is not a legal responsibility to provide the item. It is, however, highly unethical to do that.


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

So .................... Currys have a washing Machine in the window on sale for £XXX - you go in and say "can I have that machine at £XXX" (offer)

" no but you can have it for a higher price" - thats legal but unethical. However the Trading Standards will jump on the seller for another legal reason (can't remember what).

"yes you can have it for £XXX" - thats acceptance of the offer and now there is a contract between buyer & seller.


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

I agree in principle, but the sort of "conditional on stock availability" stuff they put in the email opens the door to them doing this kind of thing. That's the problem - they didn't say "yes, you can have it at £x", they said that and a whole bunch of small print that basically removes our rights as consumers. I'm in the same place as you, I just think they put so many get-out clauses in there that it's best not to get lost in a legal argument and just make them realise that it's ethically wrong...


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

It's not just the seemingly misleading offer that is very annoying. It is also that Rutlands didn't even bother to contact me to tell me what was happening to my order.


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## RogerS (16 Jul 2009)

Could be wrong but if their condition of sale says subject to availability and they don't take any money from you then legally they don't need to supply you if they don't want to.

From a customer service perspective then that is a different matter.


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

ste_5150":1qcvmfpm said:


> I'm in the same place as you, I just think they put so many get-out clauses in there that it's best not to get lost in a legal argument and just make them realise that it's ethically wrong...



Yup, and shop elsewhere.


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

studders":5u7tta3a said:


> It's not just the seemingly misleading offer that is very annoying. It is also that Rutlands didn't even bother to contact me to tell me what was happening to my order.



Yeah, that got my back up too. I wouldn't have known a thing if I hadn't thought to phone them..


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

RogerS":1u7iawb4 said:


> Could be wrong but if their condition of sale says subject to availability and they don't take any money from you then legally they don't need to supply you if they don't want to.
> 
> From a customer service perspective then that is a different matter.



I agree totally. 

EDIT - Although the fact that it clearly is still available makes that a bit dodgy..


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

RogerS":1prt8iwm said:


> Could be wrong but if their condition of sale says subject to availability and they don't take any money from you then legally they don't need to supply you if they don't want to.
> 
> From a customer service perspective then that is a different matter.



Well they have no legal obligation to supply me at all, stock or no stock, as far as I can see. But I don't like having my time wasted and then being told porkies.


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## RogerS (16 Jul 2009)

studders":30jkismf said:


> ......
> Well they have no legal obligation to supply me at all, stock or no stock, as far as I can see. But I don't like having my time wasted and then being told porkies.



Absolutely agree with you on that point. I always judge a company on how it handles problems. It would have cost Rutlands so little to honour the orders and then they would have got brownie points not brickbats.


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## Russell (16 Jul 2009)

You need to check Rutlands t's and c's. Under the distance selling regulations they need to identlfy at which point they accept your order. As an example in my own T's & C's which state we accept your order at the point we process your payment. Receiving an order confirmation may just show you that they have received your request to buy something and they can still refuse to accept it and thus no contract has been entered in to.

thats my understanding my late wife was a commercial lawyer she wrote my T's and C's


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

RogerS":3avau9g0 said:


> studders":3avau9g0 said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



Prezactly Roger. :lol:


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## studders (16 Jul 2009)

Russell":3ljbqygj said:


> You need to check Rutlands t's and c's. Under the distance selling regulations they need to identlfy at which point they accept your order. As an example in my own T's & C's which state we accept your order at the point we process your payment. Receiving an order confirmation may just show you that they have received your request to buy something and they can still refuse to accept it and thus no contract has been entered in to.
> 
> thats my understanding my late wife was a commercial lawyer she wrote my T's and C's



Maybe so but I am not disputing legalities. It's a matter of honesty and trust.


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## Argus (16 Jul 2009)

.


Oh dear.... all this started with a question from the OP about the quality of the planes, which is without any doubt, very good and I was at some pains to point this out.

I can't personally complain of the service I've had with Rutland's (only two orders so far), but it does make me think that buying from a company down in the West Country for the thick end of 25 years I've had one complaint that was put right immediately at no cost and with no quibbles and certainly no monkeying about with price changes.

The problem is that for comparable products, Veritas etc. Rutlands are a little cheaper... Rutland is a tiny place just escaped from Leicestershire, but I still prefer to deal with the firm in ....... Devon.



.


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

"Absolutely agree with you on that point. I always judge a company on how it handles problems. It would have cost Rutlands so little to honour the orders and then they would have got brownie points not brickbats."


Yep!

Just like Axminster did on the "Great Bessey clamps cockup".

This sale thing was what lured me back to Rutlands.
I dipped my toe back in the water over a book, that came through fine.

Then this :twisted: :twisted: 

If summat looks too good to be true than it usually is.


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## wizer (16 Jul 2009)

lurker":1bpjdkhw said:


> *Dakota*


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

wizer":2smnt72j said:


> lurker":2smnt72j said:
> 
> 
> > *Dakota*




:lol:


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

Argus":17l1rblm said:


> .
> 
> 
> Oh dear.... all this started with a question from the OP about the quality of the planes, which is without any doubt, very good and I was at some pains to point this out.
> ...



Rutlands aint in Rutland - lucky for them, as my mate is the Trading Standards officer for that area.

Argus - not your fault - I have John Ruskin's sayings rattling around in my head this afternoon :roll:


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## lurker (16 Jul 2009)

Wizer - have been waiting for that all afternoon :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## wizer (16 Jul 2009)

I'm not as mean as you Jim.


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## Argus (16 Jul 2009)

lurker":1hjebvvl said:


> Rutlands aint in Rutland - lucky for them, as my mate is the Trading Standards officer for that area.
> 
> Argus - not your fault - I have John Ruskin's sayings rattling around in my head this afternoon :roll:




Joke, dear boy, .... joke ....... :roll: :lol: 

Still, as I said before those little Chinese planes are great value, if you can track them down.



.


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## Jake (16 Jul 2009)

What exactly was the text of their email, and what are their t&c's?

(I assume you click to accept them on placing an order, but I can't recall).


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## SteveJ (16 Jul 2009)

Just found this thread, tis funny :lol: - exactly the same thing just happened to me :x ! I ordered a 245mm Taiwanese Style Plane on the 6th, called two days ago (14th), was told the guy I needed to talk to was on the phone, they'd call back in a few minutes.... 40 mins later I called them back to be told it was out of stock :evil: 

I switched my order and got the smallest Hong-Kong jobbie instead, took some doing though, the (completely different) lass I spoke to seemed pretty clueless. I've received my plane now, chuffed with it too..... I won't be going back to Rutlands though.


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## Pete W (16 Jul 2009)

Jake":1sprwezm said:


> what are their t&c's?



This is from their 'customer service' page:

"Order Acceptance Terms..

Pressing the confirm button at the end of the checkout process will generate an automated order acknowledgement email detailing all of the products ordered. This is not confirmation of order acceptance by Rutlands Ltd.

Acceptance of your order and creation of a sales contract will only take place upon despatch of your order. If we are unable to accept your order, we will notify you by email or telephone.

Your order will not be accepted if:

The product ordered is no longer available from us.
We are unable to obtain authorisation for your given payment method.
The order is a result of an incorrect product description or price."

Seems to give them all the wiggle room they need.


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## rileytoolworks (16 Jul 2009)

I ordered two of the planes t'other day (the small and big ones).
I got a 'Sorry you were out card' today.
I'm confused.
When did they start saying they were out of stock? When they realised there was a 'plane rush' on their hands, and they could make a bit more money?


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## big soft moose (16 Jul 2009)

Argus":2r5axu1d said:


> Still, as I said before those little Chinese planes are great value, if you can track them down.



like i said - workshop heaven - they are only 3 quid more than the rutlands offer price , and it seems to me that those who went with rutlands have spent more than 3 quid of their time arguing the toss with what passes for rutlands customer services dept.

With regard to the rutlands ferago it appears that they have left themselves sufficent weasel room in their T&Cs so you cant do anything in a legal court - however the "court of public opinion" might be something else again - may be a few letters to the woodworking press regarding their poor customer service and inability to complete offers they are still offering...


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## Karl (16 Jul 2009)

I ordered a Veritas spokeshave on the 6th. My debit card was debited with MORE than their confirmation e-mail. Despite several e-mails, it's still not sorted. Nor has the 'shave arrived - I was told that it was despatched by normal 1st class on the 6th, but i'd have to wait for two weeks (ntil it was officially classed as "lost")before they could do anything about it.

I won't order anything from them again. Their customer service is shocking.

Way off topic now.

Cheers

Karl


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## big soft moose (16 Jul 2009)

Karl":2sto50nz said:


> I won't order anything from them again. Their customer service is shocking.
> 
> Way off topic now.
> 
> ...



yep , i had a similar experience with them over a router table insert we ordered for work.

a startling proportion of their deliveries seem to be "lost" (or perhaps more likely failed to be despatched in the first place) , but any firm can have delivery problems - what really lets rutlands down is their awful customer service and the fact that the operators dont seem to give a toss that you've been inconvenienced.

I'll never use them again and give my buisness now predominantly to axminster and tool post , both of whom exhibit excellent customer service , and while things still ocasionaly go astray the orders are always sorted out with a maximum of courtesy and a minimum of fuss. I ave also now added workshop heaven to my "good guys" list.


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## ste_5150 (16 Jul 2009)

big soft moose":2o4zq5tv said:


> it seems to me that those who went with rutlands have spent more than 3 quid of their time arguing the toss with what passes for rutlands customer services dept



Go on, rub it in!!!! :wink: :lol:


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## lurker (17 Jul 2009)

Well folks,

Much to my surprise I seem to have a result. 
I've had a very nice e-mail from Rutlands this morning and it seems they are going to honour the original deal.
Only when the plane hits the mat & and I see the bank statement, will I believe it.

In a moment I'll post the contents & my reply

So................ maybe Rutlands are trying

Anyone else who has bought, I imagine will get a similar response from them. Feel free to PM


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## ste_5150 (17 Jul 2009)

lurker":27l5lmyi said:


> Well folks,
> 
> Much to my surprise I seem to have a result.
> I've had a very nice e-mail from Rutlands this morning and it seems they are going to honour the original deal.
> ...



I'm still waiting for a reply..... I emailed yesterday early afternoon and it was read within about 10 mins, but I've had no response at all....


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## lurker (17 Jul 2009)

Dear Mr XXXXX,

Thank you for your email, and having taken notice of your comments on the woodworking forum I feel I must explain the situation - the item you actually ordered was from our clearance section and as such the item was at a reduced cost, the reason being that is had been reviewed by Andy King and therefore deemed to have been used and not brand new. Regrettably as all the planes reviewed are so popular the orders flew in and we had to treat on a first come first come first served basis.  Unfortunately when we received your order we had sold out.

We do still stock these planes and are available to purchase on our website as new.  However, as a good will gesture I am willing to let procure one of the new planes at the reduced cost on this occasion.  

If you wish to go ahead with this please contact me directly and I will arrange the sale for you.

Kind regards

Dawn Carter
Commercial Manager

Rutlands Ltd
Deepdale Business Park, Ashford Road,
Bakewell, Derbyshire, DE45 1GT
Tel: 01629 815 518  -  Fax: 01629 814 170
Email: [email protected]
www.rutlands.co.uk


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## wizer (17 Jul 2009)

At least Rutlands are bothering to watch these forums. Smart Move.

What's not smart is their ordering system. Why did it allow more orders than they had stock for? Sloppy, very sloppy.


Well Done Mr XXXXX. Good Result.


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## lurker (17 Jul 2009)

wizer":15tp7qlz said:


> At least Rutlands are bothering to watch these forums. Smart Move.
> .



Wizer, if you look at my earlier posts you will see I told them to look

Here is my reply to the above rutlands e-mail:

Dear Dawn,

Many thanks for that and yes I'll take you up on your kind offer.

Maybe in the light of this incident you need to review how the company software stock list "communicates"s with order acceptance. 
But the big thing that is a reoccurring issue and has certainly earned Rutland's a "reputation" is dealing with things that go wrong.
I had to ask where the order was and then got a fairly inaccurate scripted reply - almost a digital shrug of the shoulders

A common thread is Rutlands are great when things go right but hopeless when they go wrong. 
Which is why Axminster gets so much business - they are geared up to aftercare 

regards


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## wizer (17 Jul 2009)

Very well put.


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## studders (17 Jul 2009)

So have I got this right? They only had one plane, that had been used in a review, to sell? :?


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## ste_5150 (17 Jul 2009)

studders":bci2b5no said:


> So have I got this right? They only had one plane, that had been used in a review, to sell? :?



Yes, that's how I'm reading it too. Surely not.... :roll: 

Still haven't had a reply to my complaint.


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## studders (17 Jul 2009)

ste_5150":2hyeaplu said:


> Still haven't had a reply to my complaint.


Well I have now received an email at least. They claim they emailed me three days ago (they didn't) to cancel my order. Have replied stating my dissatisfaction with their customer service and stock control.


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## lurker (17 Jul 2009)

studders":2017fzh9 said:


> So have I got this right? They only had one plane, that had been used in a review, to sell? :?



Thats was my understanding and I thought to myself "when in a hole stop digging"

Unfortunately people nowadays, in all walks of life, seem to find it impossible to say "Sorry!, we (I) made a mistake".


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## rileytoolworks (17 Jul 2009)

Well, my planes turned up today.
On the invoice it had a sticker informing me that I had unfortunately missed the discounted price (?), and that one of the planes was out of stock and would be put on back order. There were two planes in the box.
Just checked my bank statement and I've paid the right amount.
On the box of the small plane there's a sticker saying this item has been reviewed by Andy King. So, if they did only have one of these planes, I've got it!


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## ste_5150 (20 Jul 2009)

You're very lucky Riley! I have yet to even receieve response to a complaint. 

I just complained about the lack of complaint resolution..... Emails don't cost, so why not. :wink:


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## rileytoolworks (20 Jul 2009)

Took the planes to work today, sharpened them up and gave them a test run on some oak, maple, pine and walnut.
Both the 127 and 230 performed brilliantly.
I would thoroughly recommend these planes. Even at the higher price, they're still a bargain! (But don't let Rutlands know or they'll go up in price!!!!!!!!!!)
Adam


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## ste_5150 (21 Jul 2009)

I finally got a reply! They've given me the same offer - at the sale price with free delivery (though not with the 15% off - only a couple of quid so not going to argue about that). I will buy it at that price, but I have to admit I'd still think twice before using them again...


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## studders (21 Jul 2009)

ste_5150":1enxvwlz said:


> I finally got a reply! They've given me the same offer - at the sale price with free delivery


They're still ignoring my last email so I've given up. They can stick their goods where the sun fails to shine; this whole episode has been a total farce. In future I shall only deal with companies that I consider to have a reasonable reputation.


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## Noel (21 Jul 2009)

Rutlands had many problems in it's early days, most notably having a habit of debiting your credit card as soon as an order was placed without any concern as to the level of current stock and there were many such complaints here about the company.

In response Rutlands came on the forum and posted this in Dec 2004 in reply to a member having issues with a purchase:

" _factual response from Rutlands Limited. 

The two items ordered and received the next working day by this customer were offered for sale in the Transit Damaged Products section of the Rutlands website. The goods were one off’s and were reduced in price by up to 80% of the normal selling price. 

Unfortunately, the Sjoberg bench top was mis-described as the top for the 1530BS and not the top for them the SJ1422 which the customer subsequently received. Under the Sale of Goods Act, the customer was offered a full refund, which he chose to decline. To say that the customer received goods that were of a lesser value than those he paid for, is a little unfair. The retail value of the top the customer received is £193 and we consider the £29.95 paid by the customer to be reasonable. A pair of bench dogs was missing from the parcel and these have now been sent. 

With regard to the Rout R Lift, this was damaged more extensively than had been realised and as such is unusable. Again, we have offered the customer a full refund for this, which has been accepted. 

Due to the nature of these goods and the circumstances under which they have been offered, we were unable to supply alternatives and therefore offered full refunds with no financial loss to the customer. 

During September of this year Rutlands Ltd moved into a new purpose built distribution centre and at the same time installed a specialist mail order computer system. Our new system ensures that funds are now only taken from customer’s accounts after the despatch of goods. This facility was not offered by our previous system and Rutlands apologises for any inconvenience this may have caused. Today 96% of Rutlands orders are received by customers the next working day. Rutlands is committed to developing its level of customer service.* 

We are happy to advise that this unfortunate incident has not deterred this customer from ordering other items from Rutlands range of products, and look forward to being able to continue supplying him in the future."_

*my underlining.

Sad to see that their efforts to improve customer service has not gone quite to plan considering this thread and the Rutlands clamp thread elsewhere. It takes very little money (if any) and very little time for a company to take an interest in their customers other than simply taking their money. As has been said so many times in the past take a leaf out of Lee Valley's book and see how customer care really works and how it can only improve and enhance a company's reputation.
Maybe 95% of Rutlands customer's are satisfied but ignoring the needs of the remaining 5% may prove costly.


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## ste_5150 (22 Jul 2009)

The latest reponse (only edited to remove my personal details) is below. I'd suggest anyone who hasn't had a reply copy this post and email direct to the address at the bottom (I assume direct contact won't be a problem as they need to address their lack of contact so one central contact point will help them do that). Proof is in the pudding, but at least the intention is stated - that's a start. We can't exactly complain if we don't do what we reasonably can to help them sort themselves out, so let them know if you've posted in this thread about your problems with this item....


Dear Mr XXX

Thank you for your email – I will action the order immediately, I have reinstated the previous order so no further action will be necessary on your part. This should arrive with you tomorrow.

Once again I apologise for the missing emails which were sent – I am investigating with our internet providers to see if there is a reason why the replies weren’t received. Your email has caused me real concern by adding that other people are too not receiving direct communication back from ourselves. It is our policy that we try to respond and resolve any queries on a 20 minute turnaround. 

I can assure you that our customers satisfaction and our relationship with all our customers is our main priority. We do appreciate your feedback and will endeavour to use these constructive comments to improve our service to you. 

Once again please accept our sincere apologies for any inconvenience and anything we can do now or in the future please do not hesitate in contacting me directly.

Kindest regards

Dawn Carter
Commercial Manager

Rutlands Ltd
Deepdale Business Park, Ashford Road,
Bakewell, Derbyshire, DE45 1GT
Tel: 01629 815 518 - Fax: 01629 814 170
Email: [email protected]
www.rutlands.co.uk
Vat No.: 737567201
Registered Number: 3769933


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## ste_5150 (24 Jul 2009)

Plane arrived yesterday - the latest laugh.........they overcharged me for it!!! Now got an email in to get them to refund the difference. 

Will it never end?? :roll: 

Haven't had time to actually try the plane. Better be good..... :lol:


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