# Saw files



## Paul Chapman (16 Aug 2006)

In anticipation of some expert guidance in saw sharpening at Philly's get-together next month, I've been out today hunting for saw files. The saws I have are 15 ppi and looking at the material I've been reading up on, what I need is a 4inch double extra slim file. I went to Buck & Ryan at Guildford and they checked with their supplier's website. The ones they have are Nicholson 4inch super slim. I've ordered some of these in the hope that they will be OK, but I must admit to being a bit baffled by saw file terminology. I'd welcome some guidance on the super slim, extra slim and double extra slim terminology and whether what I've bought will be suitable for a 15 ppi saw :? :? 

On a related issue, every time I look at the saw teeth they seem to get smaller :shock: Being an ageing geezer with rapidly deteriorating eyesight does anyone have any recommendations regarding those illuminated magnifying glass thingies :shock: 

Thanks in anticipation,

Paul


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## bugbear (16 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":3qy8xmae said:


> The saws I have are 15 ppi



Not a good place to start your learning....

BugBear


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## Paul Chapman (16 Aug 2006)

bugbear":295hetsy said:


> Paul Chapman":295hetsy said:
> 
> 
> > The saws I have are 15 ppi
> ...



I take your point, BugBear, but that's what I have...........

Paul


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## bugbear (16 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":bk9fvgu8 said:


> I...but I must admit to being a bit baffled by saw file terminology. I'd welcome some guidance on the super slim, extra slim and double extra slim terminology and whether what I've bought will be suitable for a 15 ppi saw :? :?



This page should help:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

The same info (copied?) is here:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1351

I *wish* they'd just give the dimension of the flat side of the file.

Anything anyone can add to this would be welcome:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_s ... html#files

BugBear


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## bugbear (16 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":36h88ve3 said:


> bugbear":36h88ve3 said:
> 
> 
> > Paul Chapman":36h88ve3 said:
> ...



...spend a fiver at the next boot fair, and get a nice 7-9 TPI cross cut hand saw.

BugBear


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## Philly (16 Aug 2006)

No need-I have quite a selection of old saws ready for sharpening. Like loads :wink: :lol: 
Philly


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## Paul Chapman (16 Aug 2006)

Philly":2fm8w9x3 said:


> No need-I have quite a selection of old saws ready for sharpening. Like loads :wink: :lol:
> Philly



I knew it, it was a cunning plot all along for Philly to get his backlog of saw sharpening done :roll: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (16 Aug 2006)

Paul - if thats the one I'm thinking of in Guildford, its just at the top of the hill near the lights on the junction of the main shopping street. It was my favourite shop in Guildford many years ago - got all my origional tools in there but I don't think then it was called Buck and Ryan - spent loads of dosh from my mis-spent youth in there :roll: :roll: :wink: . Wish there was a half respectable tool shop (apart from Penny Farthing Tools, which is for 2nd hand tools) in Salisbury  - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (16 Aug 2006)

Yes, Rob, that's the one. It used to be called Messengers until quite recently. Not a bad shop (although it stopped stocking Clifton planes recently which made me a bit cross), and the staff are very helpful and seem to know their stuff, which is good. Must stop going in there - I can't afford it :roll: 

Paul


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## engineer one (16 Aug 2006)

paul, i would suggest that you think about one of those round 
magnifiers with a tube round it, many modelmakers use them.
i actually use one with a normal type bulb, sold by shesto in west london
[email protected] will start the route
they seem to go from about 25 quid up to 80.

the most important thing is to get daylight bulbs if you can.

such lights are available in johnlewis for instance but i think more 
expensive.

hope it helps
paul :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (16 Aug 2006)

Thanks Paul :wink: 

Paul


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## Philly (16 Aug 2006)

Paul C
If you sharpen it, you can take it home! Most of the saws are Spear and Jackson, and I only paid a pound each. So fear not.
And I also have the illuminated magnifier to use when sharpening the finer saws. 
Yes, Philly's workshop is the place to play :wink: :lol: 
Cheers
Philly  
_Who is hoping we don't get dozens of wanna-be saw sharpeners turn up_ :lol:


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## engineer one (16 Aug 2006)

i see philly, now you're withdrawing invitations to those who 
want to sharpen saws :lol: 

pehaps you had better have a sale of tickets for the sharpening
part of the workshop. :twisted: 

paul :wink:


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## ike (16 Aug 2006)

Hobbycraft stores stock a good range of Daylight Company magnifer lamps.

I have one of these - expensive products but they are extremely good indeed with good optical quality. 

Ike


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## Paul Chapman (16 Aug 2006)

Philly":1l7sdbld said:


> Paul C
> If you sharpen it, you can take it home! Most of the saws are Spear and Jackson, and I only paid a pound each. So fear not.
> And I also have the illuminated magnifier to use when sharpening the finer saws.
> Yes, Philly's workshop is the place to play :wink: :lol:



WOW Philly, what an offer :shock: I was going to rummage around second-hand tools shops following BugBear's advice about starting off on saws with fewer teeth but your offer sounds a better option  Many thanks - I'm really looking forward to the day :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (17 Aug 2006)

engineer one":3rcr7s0r said:


> the most important thing is to get daylight bulbs if you can.



Apart from wood finishing, I can't see a workshop requirement for colour accuracy, which is the only reason I know for wanting daylight bulbs.

What's your thinking behind this?

BugBear


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## engineer one (17 Aug 2006)

bb, two things having used them in model making, and seen one
of those EXPENSIVE american lights that is offered on one of the
shopping channels, the light is better for your eyes,
as well as making it easier to see the finer details.

years aga WOOD magazine did an article about the light you need,
the amount you need seems to double about every 10 years, so 
i just think that light designed to be more nearly natural would and
is better for you.

will check my filing system and see if i can find the actual references.

think the american thing is called an OTTLIGHT, supposed to have been
ex nasa, but who knows.

paul :wink: 

ps great for checking splinters :twisted: :lol:


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## engineer one (17 Aug 2006)

bb you might check the splurge at www.ottlite.com
for their ideas about why the daylight type bulb is so good.

the other excuse is of course that as we approach winter
sads (seasonally affected disorder) becomes stronger,
lack of sunlight etc, and these lights ie day light ones
seem tohelp that.particularly when you are doing fine work.

my 2p
paul :wink:


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## Alf (17 Aug 2006)

Sorry, folks - dodgy connection again or I'd have chimed in earlier. Mike Hancock should be getting in the Grobet files "soon", all being well, so with any luck at all we'll have a source of double extra slim files. Which you won't need yet, 'cos as BB says, 15 ppi isn't a good starting place. Although there's a dodge that can help a lot. And I can see I won't need to bring any saws along then; except maybe "one I did earlier" in case it's one of those days and I can't sharpen for toffee... :shock: I'll try to remember to chuck in the magnifying doodah too, in case someone else find it works for them.

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (17 Aug 2006)

engineer one":4txfi9vy said:


> bb you might check the splurge at www.ottlite.com
> for their ideas about why the daylight type bulb is so good.



Hmm. There's lots of dirty rhetoric on that site, conflating accurate staetments to pseudo-justify unrelated conclusions.

They appear to have 2 arguments.

* quantity (people often work in low light)
* colour accuracy

I still don't see any thing scientficily defensible that says you need "accurate" lighting for non-colour-critical tasks. Just light. Light is good.

So I'll stick with my anglepoises.

BugBear


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## bugbear (17 Aug 2006)

Alf":14hpb8az said:


> except maybe "one I did earlier" in case it's one of those days and I can't sharpen for toffee.



Yep, those happen:

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswi ... 69#message

Ended up ok though...

http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images ... ge_id=4195

BugBear


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## engineer one (17 Aug 2006)

bb, with saws like that i can see that you feel that there is no need
but i was not long ago at an exhibition, and a guy had one of the
ott lights, in the hall. i was surprised at the difference it made.

not had the courage to spring for one, but will use my mag glass with
daylight bulb on the new computer desk, and see what that does for me.

in years past my dad always used to specify cool white flouro tubes
rather than the others, and you can tell the difference.

i think what everybody agrees is that here in the uk we tend to have
too little overall light, and almost no task lighting so anything is an 
improvement. kind of like not putting your lights on in the car until
it is REALLY dark to save the magdyno. :lol: :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## bugbear (17 Aug 2006)

engineer one":pq6yfivo said:


> bb, with saws like that i can see that you feel that there is no need
> but i was not long ago at an exhibition, and a guy had one of the
> ott lights, in the hall. i was surprised at the difference it made.



But was it simple "intensity" or the "colour" that made the difference?

That's the question at the heart of this.

BugBear


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## engineer one (17 Aug 2006)

how about this for a definition "clearer" i know that many people
find reading easier because the words seem to jump out
from the page. 

not sure whether that is a lux definition or something else,
but as we say elsewhere here, whatever rocks your boat.

paul :wink:


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## Jarviser (17 Aug 2006)

I use blue daylight bulbs in all the main light fitttings and lamps in my workshop (shed). It makes the place seem less like "indoors" when working in the dark winter days. Helps avoid the "SAD". I bought them originally when I did watercolour painting in there for the true colours and there's no point in having special lights for wood finishing and yellowy ones for the rest of the time. When is one NOT finishing wood?. Most places do them now including Sainsbugs. 
Didn't help much with the saw sharpening though. Still, R&L did fit a new blade for me after my attempts at recutting what started out as a nice saw. (don't ask. there's already a thread in here somewhere)


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## Alf (17 Aug 2006)

Just to stray back on topic for a moment (and yes, the fact I'm used to copious amounts of natural light when I sharpen saws is starting to worry me with regard to Philly's hovel...) and... Where was I? Oh yeah, Mike Hancock at Classic Handtools tells me files various are _en route_ even as we speak, but


> I am so under the cosh with trying to finish my catalogue price list that I haven't yet got time to quote prices - anyway it will be US equiavlent plus VAT and the usual 10% levy for getting across the pond.


So feel free to try and work that out.  Oh, and marking knives from Blue Spruce, as offered for our drooling pleasure by Chris here should be in this week too. Not sure if I was supposed to tell you that bit, but I daresay Mike won't begrudge early interest... :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (17 Aug 2006)

bugbear":1d9iug7w said:


> But was it simple "intensity" or the "colour" that made the difference?
> 
> That's the question at the heart of this.



I think the colour does make a difference and I think that is down primarily to contrast. Thinking back to my photographic days when people were forever going on about lenses, films and developers and which ones produced "sharper" results, it was often the contrast that determined what people perceived as the "sharper" result. I can't give any scientific explanation, but in my view the more yellow the light the lower the contrast will be and for that reason a white or blueish light will generally be preferable when you want to do detailed work :wink: 

Paul


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## Philly (17 Aug 2006)

Alf
Fear not, the bench is in front of a 1.8m wide window, south facing. And two angle-poise lamps for detail lighting. You'll need to find another excuse :wink: :lol: 
Blue Spruce marking knives? Saw them on the site. Must be strong.....must make my own........must be strong......
Philly


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## MikeW (18 Aug 2006)

Philly":xf4t78vo said:


> ...
> Blue Spruce marking knives? Saw them on the site. Must be strong.....must make my own........must be strong......
> Philly


I was at Dave's shop yesterday...ordered one of these in 1/4":







:wink: :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (18 Aug 2006)

MikeW":365r4ov0 said:


> I was at Dave's shop yesterday...ordered one of these in 1/4":



Very nice, Mike 8) Are you buying them one at a time so that you get four gloats :lol: 

Paul


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## Alf (18 Aug 2006)

Philly":bjeijuhz said:


> Alf
> Fear not, the bench is in front of a 1.8m wide window, south facing. And two angle-poise lamps for detail lighting. You'll need to find another excuse :wink: :lol:


_South_ facing? Oh I'm terribly sorry; I only work in a North light... [-( :lol: Finally got some accomodation booked last night, so that excuse is gone too. #-o

Mike, you're in a bit of a tool-buying frenzy just now, aren't you? Makes you-know-what a bit tricky when everywhere I look you've just ordered something I'd thought "ah ha" :roll: :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (18 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":1ofdyntk said:


> Very nice, Mike Are you buying them one at a time so that you get four gloats


Nah. More or less have enough chisels :roll: 
But the square portion of the saw bolts is roughly 1/4" and the chisels I have currently in that size tend to roll the edges after a few handles. Dave's are harder, and with the tapered face I figured they wouldn't bind as easy. It's an efficiency thing :wink: 

If Dave's chisel works like I think it will, I'll get the boys each one.


Alf":1ofdyntk said:


> ...Mike, you're in a bit of a tool-buying frenzy just now, aren't you? Makes you-know-what a bit tricky when everywhere I look you've just ordered something I'd thought "ah ha" :roll: :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf




Snooping on the 'Bay, eh? :lol: 

I promise. No more purchases. For a while. Well, except some pieces-parts for some machinery Dave gave me the ideas for. Probably <g>...

Yeah, went a little nuts on a couple items. The Fray braces were a replacement, as were the bits. The rest? Like the Disston No. 9? Well, having only held a couple and seeing how I do make them...I figured it was business research...

But...now no spending "real" money.

Take care, Mike


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## Philly (18 Aug 2006)

MikeW":2g7cqtnx said:


> It's an efficiency thing :wink:


Yeah, I've heard it all now :wink: :lol: 
Nice to see gloats on tools you HAVEN'T made :lol: 
Cheers
Philly  _
Who's been known for the odd gloat or two_


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## MikeW (18 Aug 2006)

Philly":16l2lnc0 said:


> MikeW":16l2lnc0 said:
> 
> 
> > It's an efficiency thing :wink:
> ...


The odd gloat? Oh, Philly, such a master of understatement :lol: 

For me, here's my best gloat for sometime.






A Disston No. 9. I don't see them come up very often and usually go for more than I paid. Super comfy to use. This one the smallest size No. 9 Disston made at a 10" blade.

The Fray braces come in as my next best gloat. Since mine walked away in 1989 or so, I have not had good luck replacing them. Still have a few sizes to go before I'm back to square one with them. And the bitstock...I use to have a good-sized box full. Down to a few rolls now. I had forgot how great spoon bits are, using augers for nearly everything. As well, center bits. Great things.

Still got a ways to go. 

Well, back to worky. Take care, Mike
who's glad there'll be a web cam...


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## Paul Chapman (18 Aug 2006)

MikeW":2bx2v2ky said:


> Mike
> who's glad there'll be a web cam...



I'm sure, Mike, that if you let Philly know what time you will be watching, he'll arrange a "Group Gloat" to camera, just for you 8) :lol: 

Paul


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## Alf (19 Aug 2006)

That is indeed a nice one, Mike. Business research, huh? Mmm, Grade A excuse, er, _reason_, that one. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

Wondering about some web cam sabotage... :-k


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## MikeW (19 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":25qo2l9j said:


> he'll arrange a "Group Gloat" to camera, just for you


I need to figure out what that means as regards my beauty sleep :lol: 


Alf":25qo2l9j said:


> That is indeed a nice one, Mike. Business research, huh? Mmm, Grade A excuse, er, _reason_, that one. :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf


Thanks, Alf. Yep, business. :wink: No, really...

Dina's reaction when I showed it to her? "That's cute" and "I want one..."
Gotta love her! So it's been added to the growing list of saws she wants me to make her. :lol: 


> Wondering about some web cam sabotage... :-k


Now now...How would that be? Guest Galooteri messing with the host equipment? :shock: 

And besides. It's not the camera that Philly _told_ you about...it's the multiple ones he _didn't tell_ you about that should concern y'all :lol: 

Take care, Mike


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## Philly (19 Aug 2006)

Heh, heh-you know it, Mike :twisted: 
Phillyvision :wink:


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## Rob Lee (19 Aug 2006)

Alf":25qr135k said:


> That is indeed a nice one, Mike. Business research, huh? Mmm, Grade A excuse, er, _reason_, that one. :lol:
> 
> (snip)



Yeah - Mike'd be in far greater danger from the the auctions though... one could do some real damage there..... :roll: 

Cheers - 

Rob


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## engineer one (19 Aug 2006)

oh i don't know rob, am sure a trip round one of your experimental shops
would have us all dropping rapidly off the slope :twisted: :twisted: :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## MikeW (19 Aug 2006)

Rob Lee":1r58em87 said:


> Alf":1r58em87 said:
> 
> 
> > That is indeed a nice one, Mike. Business research, huh? Mmm, Grade A excuse, er, _reason_, that one. :lol:
> ...


Nah, Rob. It actually takes money to go to an auction!

The once-in-a-while [ahem] purchases form the Bay, Leach or Murland is sorta controllable. Even something like the soon to be Best of the West is easy--I've just bought materials this week for the next 80 some orders...that puts a ding in the wallet...I will go on Friday morning...But I promised Alf no more purchases...

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (19 Aug 2006)

MikeW":eaex2yq7 said:


> But I promised Alf no more purchases...


Aww, Mike, I feel bad now... Knock yourself out - duplicates aren't necessarily a bad thing, right...? :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (19 Aug 2006)

Don't feel bad. Tis all in good fun. I have no plans on purchasing anything at my first time ever to the BoW tailgating...

And besides, "duplicates" is a misnomer. Duplicates are only extra things after one has more than 10 of something...and even at that, extra thingies can be useful when one of the non-extra thingies gets dull :lol: 

So really, just how many of something constitutes "duplicates"? :wink: 

Ok. Too much coffee...Take care, Mike


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## Philly (19 Aug 2006)

Thanks for clearing that up, Mike. :lol: 
I, for one, feel a LOT better :wink: 
Cheers
Philly


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## Alf (20 Aug 2006)

I think duplicates, by the nature of the word, could be interpreted to mean only "one spare", which is a Bad Thing. What I _should_ have said was *back-ups* - you can have as many of those as you like. Silly me. #-o  

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (4 Sep 2006)

Alf":3erjj76k said:


> Just to stray back on topic for a moment (and yes, the fact I'm used to copious amounts of natural light when I sharpen saws is starting to worry me with regard to Philly's hovel...) and... Where was I? Oh yeah, Mike Hancock at Classic Handtools tells me files various are _en route_ even as we speak, but
> 
> 
> > I am so under the cosh with trying to finish my catalogue price list that I haven't yet got time to quote prices - anyway it will be US equiavlent plus VAT and the usual 10% levy for getting across the pond.



I wandered into the shop a while ago to pick up local files (I'm close to the shop, but far from the Sep 9 get together).

The files weren't in.

I was phoned last week to be told that the files were in (yippee!) but that LN had only shipped the larger sizes (buggeration).

I am told that Mike is currently moving heaven and earth to get the fine sizes.

BugBear (bearer of bad-ish tidings)


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## Alf (4 Sep 2006)

Ack. Oh b- nope, no words can adequately express my feelings. No wonder Mike hasn't told me... :roll: :lol: Coo, it's a regular old saga this one, ain't it? ](*,)

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (5 Sep 2006)

There is JOY!

From my in-box this morning (5/9/2006, 8:50)



mike hancock":14mwbksx said:


> Hello Sir
> 
> The saw files are now in stock!
> .
> ...



Web site is not yet updated, so...



> TF-4XXST-FBH 4 inch Double extra-slim taper 15-20 Ppi with handle £4.95
> 
> TF-5XXST-FBH 5 inch Double extra-slim taper 12-14 Ppi with handle £5.45
> 
> ...



BugBear


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## Alf (5 Sep 2006)

Huzzah! \/ ccasion5: =D> _With_ handles? Ooo, posh. :shock: Ta muchly, BB. 

Cheers, Alf

Wondering if Mike is reading this, and if not will he mention it nearly went pear-shaped...? :-k :wink:


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## Philly (5 Sep 2006)

What? They do pear-shaped saw files now? :shock: 
My head is spinning, :lol: 
Philly


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## Alf (5 Sep 2006)

Philly":1v0swdlc said:


> What? They do pear-shaped saw files now? :shock:


Keep up, Phil. That's for filing the special tooth configuration for fruit tree pruning of course. :roll: Granny Smith & Sons G8 toe hole rip, iirc... :-k :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Philly (5 Sep 2006)

ROTFL
Philly :lol:


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## Alf (15 Sep 2006)

Houston, we have saw files! \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ 

Not sure I can take the excitement... :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Scott (15 Sep 2006)

That the royal "we" or does Mike Hancock have them too?? :wink:


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## Alf (15 Sep 2006)

Oh he's had them for a couple of weeks - just things have conspired to keep them and me apart. First I was supposed to get them at Yandles, but they were all left behind at the shop 'cos there was confusion over leaving some for BugBear. So then Mike had them posted to him at Yandles and they arrived on Saturday, but no-one from the Big Bash got up to pick them up. #-o So eventually they were posted and arrived today.

However, I celebrated too soon. :roll: 





Dunno what you folks think, but even out of focus it looks like an old fault to me with that discolouring at the point of breakage. :-k





Cheers, Alf

Thinking of writing a book on How To Buy Saw Files except no-one'd believe me...


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## Paul Chapman (15 Sep 2006)

Alf":19l1m95q said:


> Dunno what you folks think, but even out of focus it looks like an old fault to me with that discolouring at the point of breakage. :-k



Yep, I reckon you're right, Alf. All getting a bit like one of those "Do you want the good news or the bad news?" stories :roll: 

Paul


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## Scott (15 Sep 2006)

Think I'll hold off on buying some until you've broken all the dodgy ones Alf! :wink: :lol:


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## MikeW (15 Sep 2006)

Bummer, Alf. It does appear to be an old fracture on that edge.

You did buy more than one? :lol: 

Take care, Mike
who resides in NOS and new file heaven :wink:


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## Alf (15 Sep 2006)

Scott":19uafm7y said:


> Think I'll hold off on buying some until you've broken all the dodgy ones Alf! :wink: :lol:


Ho ho... :roll: :lol: 

Yes, I bought more than one - but is that a Good Thing or a Bad Thing...? :-k :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (15 Sep 2006)

Alf":233tpjs4 said:


> Dunno what you folks think, but even out of focus it looks like an old fault to me with that discolouring at the point of breakage. :-k



Agreed.

BugBear


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## Philly (15 Sep 2006)

Hoorah! Thay finally arrived! 
Can you remember what you wanted them for? :roll: 
Philly


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## engineer one (15 Sep 2006)

isn't obvious phil, alf wanted to buy broken saw files to excuse 
not sharpening the saws :lol: :twisted: 

seriously alf that is a pita, not least cause you are right the
files obviously had an old visible problem, and should not
have been sent to a customer.  

paul :wink:


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## Alf (15 Sep 2006)

To be fair you really can't see anything from the outside until you know where to look, and even then...

Phil, I haven't a clue which saw it was I had in mind to sharpen originally, but there's one for Martin that will benefit.  

Cheers, Alf


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## mr (15 Sep 2006)

I still have that wee pile of rust that needs sharpening, and now theres a bloody great Disston rip sitting on top of the pile as well. Looked at axminsters files, none seemed to fit the bill - Hurrah for Mr Hancock. Shame they break. Having said that Mike Hancock's concept of customer service is exemplary IMHO.
Cheers Mike


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## MikeW (15 Sep 2006)

mr":2qhl2r1u said:


> I still have that wee pile of rust that needs sharpening, and now theres a bloody great Disston rip sitting on top of the pile as well. Looked at axminsters files, none seemed to fit the bill - Hurrah for Mr Hancock. Shame they break. Having said that Mike Hancock's concept of customer service is exemplary IMHO.
> Cheers Mike


That and the fact these are Grobet I believe? Never seen one pre-broken before and cannot remember the last time I ever broke a saw file when filing teeth.

A true fluke.

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (16 Sep 2006)

No, they're Nicholson. I was a bit disappointed about that actually, 'cos the Nicholson I had before didn't last nearly as long as the Bahcos. :?

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (16 Sep 2006)

I would reckon there was nothing wrong with the file (hope not because I bought some Nicholsons recently :shock: ), but somewhere along the line between it being made and you receiving it, someone had dropped it on a hard surface and caused it to fracture.

Paul


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## ike (16 Sep 2006)

I think it unlikely the crack was introduced after manufacture. Almost certainly a stress crack formed when quenched during hardening -nucleating from a large dislocation or flaw in the cystalline microstructure of the steel. Just bad luck but every manufacturing process has a failure rate even if only a teeny weeny part of a percent.

Ike


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## MikeW (16 Sep 2006)

Alf":1orzlo9e said:


> No, they're Nicholson. I was a bit disappointed about that actually, 'cos the Nicholson I had before didn't last nearly as long as the Bahcos. :?
> 
> Cheers, Alf


Interesting seeing how LN sells Grobet...And I thought Mike was getting them from LN? Still, tis a better price point. 

fwiw, the issues to me between the brands is the gullet size, the coarsness of cut and longevity, in that order of importance. But then I look at saw files much like one looks at sandpaper--a consumable.

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (16 Sep 2006)

Well I thought he was getting them from LN too, but maybe when they didn't turn up in the parcel he had to source some in a hurry from elsewhere? 

And let me tell you, when it takes two or three centuries to get hold of a saw file, longevity becomes _very important indeed_... :wink: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (16 Sep 2006)

Alf":1y371rro said:


> ...And let me tell you, when it takes two or three centuries to get hold of a saw file, longevity becomes _very important indeed_... :wink: :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf


I bet! And I have a question.

Is it cost effective to order direct from the US? Seems like with the exchange difference it would be beneficial as long as the declaration amount was under a certain amount and the package wasn't insured.

I'll send you a couple Grobet and Bahco saw files, in partcular some smaller ones. That way if you like them better and it is a cost effective way to buy them, it is less risk ordering an unknown. That is, assuming Mike doesn't eventually get the Grobet in.

Take care, Mike


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## Scott (16 Sep 2006)

I live 10 minutes from the Swiss border and I keep thinking I really ought to be able to just wander into a shop and grab a slack handful of as many Grobet files as I'd like! Vallorbe is only up the road for Pete's sake! :-k 

You wouldn't happen to have any Grobet codes off the packets would you Mike? The tool shop I occasionally use has a rack of Grobets but nothing as small as you might need for a dovetail saw and I'm sure he'd think I was loopy if I started dribbling on about double extra slim _limes_! He always looks at me like I might be anyway!


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## Alf (16 Sep 2006)

MikeW":1rrdbilb said:


> Is it cost effective to order direct from the US? Seems like with the exchange difference it would be beneficial as long as the declaration amount was under a certain amount and the package wasn't insured.


It probably is, but buying direct from North America is like bidding on Ebay as far as I'm concerned. Once I get the idea I fear for the consequences... 8-[ Anyway, it's crazy - Switzerland's only over there :arrow: , dozens of places in the UK sell the perishing saws that need that size of file, Grobet and Bahco files in other configurations are stocked over here by loads of places, it's really not that unreasonable to expect to be able to buy XX slim saw files over here too! ](*,) Anyway, it's personal now. :evil:



MikeW":1rrdbilb said:


> I'll send you a couple Grobet and Bahco saw files, in partcular some smaller ones. That way if you like them better and it is a cost effective way to buy them, it is less risk ordering an unknown. That is, assuming Mike doesn't eventually get the Grobet in.


That's a generous offer, Mike, and much appreciated. I'll keep the faith with t'other Mike for a while if I can though - unless he, not unreasonably, says it's more hassel than it's worth. :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (18 Sep 2006)

Scott":2di251l9 said:


> I live 10 minutes from the Swiss border and I keep thinking I really ought to be able to just wander into a shop and grab a slack handful of as many Grobet files as I'd like! Vallorbe is only up the road for Pete's sake! :-k



At the risk of starting something ...

Is there scope for a UKW group buy here?

BugBear


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## Scott (18 Sep 2006)

bugbear":35vryh5q said:


> Scott":35vryh5q said:
> 
> 
> > I live 10 minutes from the Swiss border and I keep thinking I really ought to be able to just wander into a shop and grab a slack handful of as many Grobet files as I'd like! Vallorbe is only up the road for Pete's sake! :-k
> ...



Only if I know what I'm looking for and I can find somewhere to buy/order it!


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## Scott (19 Sep 2006)

Flippant answers aside, if someone can tell me the physical size and the "cut" or no of teeth/cm I can identify them in the catalogue and try to get some in Geneva


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## bugbear (20 Sep 2006)

Scott":1hlaie0k said:


> Flippant answers aside, if someone can tell me the physical size and the "cut" or no of teeth/cm I can identify them in the catalogue and try to get some in Geneva



OK. Cross reference time:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1351#

http://grobetusa.com/Products/tapersawsinglecut.html

(LN description - Grobet number)
4 inch Double extra-slim taper - 32.450S
5 inch Double extra-slim taper - 32.451S
6 inch Double extra-slim taper - 32.452S
6 inch Extra-slim taper - 32.447S
6 inch Slim taper - 32.440S
7 inch Slim taper - 32.441S
7 inch Regular taper - 32.434S

BugBear (who cannot face the HTML for a table)


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## Scott (20 Sep 2006)

Thanks BB. I've been looking at the "Catalogue limes de précision" in this catalogue but I should have enough info now to cross ref and see what's available.

I'm at sea at the moment though so it'll need to wait a few weeks I'm afraid

Cheers


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## Alf (20 Sep 2006)

Hmm... I see three-square files in regular, narrow and extra narrow but nothing extra extra narrow... :-k I'm assuming that by three square in this case they do actually mean saw files, but maybe I assume too much?

Perplexed, Alf


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## mr (20 Sep 2006)

Alf":3lfea61j said:


> k I'm assuming that by three square in this case they do actually mean saw files, but maybe I assume too much?



I hope they don't cos that would up my confusion levels. My understanding was that three square files were specifically NOT suitable as saw files - but then what do I know.
:lol: 

Mike


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## MikeW (20 Sep 2006)

Alf":1cfpw1ib said:


> Hmm... I see three-square files in regular, narrow and extra narrow but nothing extra extra narrow... :-k I'm assuming that by three square in this case they do actually mean saw files, but maybe I assume too much?
> 
> Perplexed, Alf


Dunno what they are selling, but the three-square files come to a tighter corner/edge than saw files. fwiw, I typically use a 6" EN [vintage/NOS] 3 square Grobets for even 16 ppi. Hate having too many files laying about. For greater than 16 PPI, I use a 4" EN.

Makes for larger teeth due to creating smaller gullets. I forget which cut mine are, but they are pretty smooth. On saws with fewer than 10 ppi I use a narrow, newer 3-square which creates a larger radii in the gullet for strength.

I do also have some vintage NOS saw files of various brands. The edge radius is about the same as a new 3-square. But new files, of which I occassionaly get, I drop the length and go to the narrowest I can to approximate the edge of the older files. Just don't make 'em like they use to...

Take care, Mike


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## Scott (20 Sep 2006)

Alf":1n9o8l4i said:


> I'm assuming that by three square in this case they do actually mean saw files,



Quite probably not but I haven't a clue! :lol: I'll have a go with the codes BB gave though cos it's all getting a bit confusing! :roll:


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## mr (20 Sep 2006)

At the risk of repeating something which someone may have mentioned before... what about the toolbank sawfiles? Nicholson and Bahco in a range of sizes etc. 
http://www.toolbank.com/category.cf...=756A8A1EC5E70607B2D2D0C253472053a2pbiea2pb5o

Mike


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## MikeW (20 Sep 2006)

Nicholsons are just fine if significantly cheaper and one is not sharpening a lot of saws. The Bahco are pretty darn good files. 

With either, use one size and or length less than recommended for a particular PPI to get better shaped gullets.

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (21 Sep 2006)

Well _I_ know three square files and saw files are different, but do _they_? That's what I was thinking. Specifically because a) I don't see anything described as a saw file and b) Are there such things as tapering three square files of different "narrowness"? But it still doesn't sort out the glaring ommission, and the thing that's causing the trouble - no double extra slim. Everyone and their Aunt Lillian seems capable of stocking regular, slim and extra slim - even, as Mike's link demonstrates, Toolbank.

Anyway, what I should have said days ago, Mike's (other Mike. No, not that one, the other other one. :roll: ) sending me a replacement for the broken one, so he's not chucked in the whole thing in despair _yet_...

Cheers, Alf


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## Racers (21 Sep 2006)

Hi,

I sharpen my tenon saws with 3 square needle files, am I doing it wrong? The file is larger than the teeth.


Pete


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## engineer one (21 Sep 2006)

peter, you sharpen =D> 
and obviously the saws cut.
so how are you doing it wrong :? 

i guess the answer is that everyone else is trying to be super
good at cutting, whilst maybe you just want to use your saws. :twisted: :lol: 

as a long term idea, if it was what you were taught, or it works for you,
why change, unless someone can prove by making your edges better,
then stick with it.

paul


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## bugbear (21 Sep 2006)

Scott":3djczy38 said:


> Thanks BB. I've been looking at the "Catalogue limes de précision" in this catalogue but I should have enough info now to cross ref and see what's available.


I also had a BIG wander round that site. No saw files  



> I'm at sea at the moment though so it'll need to wait a few weeks I'm afraid
> Cheers



Some of my saws are over 50 years old. A few weeks will make little difference  

BugBear


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## Racers (21 Sep 2006)

Hi, Engineer One

No one taught me I just looked at the tooth shape and filled it the same way. I started doing them years ago before I knew much about tools and sharpening, it seemed easer to do in those days now I have lots of things to worry about rake, fleam etc :wink: 


pete


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## Alf (21 Sep 2006)

Hi Pete,

Well I notice Tom Law does similarly on his video, but on the other hand BB found this. But then in the message before that, Mike seems to use them okay. I dunno, not sure I'm clever enough... ](*,)

Anyway I went for a trawl through the archives, a long way back, 'cos I had a feeling I was starting to lose sight of what I was trying to achieve. Viz: A UK stockist of double extra slim saw files. So I think we stand thusly:

Cooper Industries (suggested by Andy King) do Nicholson (4" & 6", no 5") but don't deal direct and suggested I try Toolbank.

Bahco said Toolbank or a contact number (mobile) with no address. Yuck on the latter. High prices quoted by trying Toolbank direct, plus postage and unspecified waiting time. Decided to try by-passing that and using the Toolbank system, so:

Matt, working at my "local" Toolbank stockist a few hundred miles away :wink: helpfully did his best to winkle either Nicholsons or Bahco from the Vast Machine but after many weeks of waiting and nothing happening we both gave up.  Decided Toolbank supplying them was one of those "in theory" things that never actually materialise.

BB met a chap at the Murland auction tail-gating who does saws in a Big Way and says he orders direct from Switzerland - evidentally he didn't relish the challenge of trying to get a UK stockist to have a regular supply...

Vallorbe don't seem to have any on their site at all, and yet Grobet and Vallorbe are s'posed to be one and the same these days, aren't they? I think I failed to find a Grobet site when I tried, but it's all starting to run together now...

Mike Hancock eventually got some (hallelujah!) which are supposed to have come from LN (Grobet) but the 4" xx slims, that I have at least, are Nicholsons!?! I'm assuming that's 'cos the small Grobets were over-looked when the LN order was sent and that in the fullness of time the superior Grobets will be available? But surely he could get them direct instead of via LN and (I would guess) extra expense?

I think that's pretty much where we are. Classic Hand Tools are the only one's to actually try stocking them at all, and as a UK stockist was the Holy Grail of my quest, I could in theory down tools and consider it Job Done. Why is it I'm not feeling 100% confident then? :?

Cheers, Alf


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## Jake (21 Sep 2006)

No idea what make, and never dealt with this company, but there's an extra extra slim file on this page.

http://www.ralphmartindale.co.uk/ralphm ... sharp.html


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## Alf (21 Sep 2006)

That's interesting. Retail or wholesale d'you think? Not come across them before - although evidentally I would have if I'd been looking for a machete... :shock: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Jake (21 Sep 2006)

I've asked them if they can sell or source 4" and/or 5" xx slim saw files in small quantities.


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## Nick W (21 Sep 2006)

What is this about a


> File-Blunt Saw


? Aren't all files for blunt saws, or is this one intended to get them that way? 8-[


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## MikeW (21 Sep 2006)

Nick W":37w88ihx said:


> What is this about a
> 
> 
> > File-Blunt Saw
> ...


For filing slightly different shaped teeth--i.e. not possible with a tapered saw file. 

Disston, Simonds, Nicholson et al use to make them [well, still do by some makers] for the redesigned Acme 120 and for special filings on various makes of saws. George Bishop also had a saw with such teeth. Prior to that, a safe-backed cant file was to be used, but after 1928 Disston changed the tooth design and so this type of file is used. A little different angle to the file than what we know as a saw file, and of course little or no taper to the file.

Take care, Mike


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## Scott (21 Sep 2006)

'tis a bit odd right enough! I thought Vallorbe and Grobet were one and the same thing. Anyway, I'll mooch about in Switzerland next time home and see if I can come up with anything


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