# electric/cctv/data cable run question



## Rob Cheetham (30 Dec 2021)

I know this isnt woodworking but is still part of my build and I find this site really helpfull so wondered if any of you people could help.

I have armoured cable running underground to my workshop (not filled in yet) and the walls and ceiling not boarded yet either. I just bought a swann SWDVK-846804-EU 4 camera system. Im going to put one camera up on the soffit of the cannopy at the front. My question is can the cctv cable for one of the cameras be buried under ground or will it need conduit. If it needs conduit then what counduit would you reccomend. The cable is BNC type. Or should I be buying a more quality cable for this one cameras needs.

Also I wanted to lay a cat 6 or 5 (undecided still) cable into the workshop too but it would be buried next to the electric cable. Ive been told you shouldnt lay it directly next to electric cable and if so to use conduit. Is this true?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Dec 2021)

How long are the cable runs?

The armoured mains should/must have the armouring wires grounded so I wouldn't be too concerned about interference, but I'd still separate by 5cm or so. Conduit is always good - easier to pull a replacement and less likely you'll need to. 

For the coax/BNC cable the important bit is the characteristic impedance, which from memory is 50 ohm or 75 ohm depending on the exact signal - make sure you get the right one. Then it'll need to be an outdoor rated cable. Past that it doesn't make a huge difference. 

For the network cable, CAT5E is sufficient for gigabit and much cheaper than CAT6. Maybe get shielded if its near the mains. 

Hope that's more helpful than it is rambly.


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## RichardG (30 Dec 2021)

In this situation conduit is your friend, I'd put 2 or 3 runs down the trench whilst it's dug, crazy not too. 25mm MDPE water pipe is cheap and readily available and one could always be repurposed for water in the future if you fancied an outside tap down there. The beauty of conduit is that you can retrofit with any cable you want if you situation changes.

Yes, the official guidance is too keep data away from mains (150mm?), certainly shouldn't be run in the same conduit but unless you're planning on running a data centre down there it won't effect the cat5e, the video cable could be effected if it's not good quality but it's unlikely. You can run video over cat5 with the appropriate baluns, check out a cctv site for parts. If the cable is in a conduit and not exposed externally then you can just use normal cable, use UV stablised if outside but doesn't need protecting.

A useful tip for running a drawstring down a conduit is to use a vacuum cleaner to pull the string through with a cork or similar on the end that's a loose fit in the conduit. Also suck some talcum powder down as it acts as a dry lubricant, then pull the cables through.


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Dec 2021)

And never 3 cables in a conduit or you have to do cable jam ratio calculations.


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## Spectric (30 Dec 2021)

Rob Cheetham said:


> I have armoured cable running underground to my workshop


How long is the run, how many cores and what size?

You need to use sods law, this states that whatever you do now will become wrong in the future and therefore running a duct in which everything is run will ensure you can easily change or modify what you need in the future. Also leave some draw strings in the duct tied off so ready to draw anything through in the future. For armoured supply cables you can get the same duct as the DNO's use but I have used 4 inch underground drainage pipe (Brown) on many occasions because it is cheap and accomodating and you can get everything through it without any hassle. 

Analogue CCTV using RG59 cable (75 ohms) is ok upto 500 foot, and if using high quality cable can be run with your other cables but these days I would look at a digital system. On the topic of security look for the many threads on these forums as it has been discussed a lot before and there are a lot of variables, you don't just want to end up watching the scum rob you ! The main security points are make access difficult, gravel paths and drives are good plus light, the scum like dark nooks and cranies to hide.


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## MikeK (30 Dec 2021)

If this was my project, I would "future-proof" the site by putting PVC conduit (or suitable equivalent for your area) in the trench. In my experience, the majority of the cost for these projects is digging and filling the trench. You don't have to go overboard with this by installing multi-channel duct banks, but I would install a duct, with plenty of spare pull strings, in case you need to run more cables later. The vacuum method Richard described works well until the duct starts filling up with cables. When we use one of the spare pull strings to run an new cable, we attach a new pull string to the cable to replace the string we just used. When the duct starts to get full, we don't add new pull strings.

With one exception, all of my renovation projects that required power and communications connections between buildings included at least one 100mm diameter four-channel PVC duct with plenty of pull strings. I would rather have three empty channels than need to pull one more cable later and have to dig a new ditch. 

The one project I did not do this was because the customer did not want to spend the extra $750 (on the $1.5M project) for the ducting and insisted on direct burial power and copper communications trunk cables. Less than a year later, the same customer spent over $35K to dig a new trench parallel to the first to run a direct burial fiber cable between the same buildings. Two years later, the same customer paid for another trench parallel to the other two for another direct burial communications cable. Lesson captured, but not lesson learned.

I looked at the Swann CCTV system, and the 60-foot coaxial cable for each camera also includes the power cable. If you need a longer cable, you will need to provide power for the camera. One advantage of the Swann system is the cameras do not rely on a power supply at the camera so a power loss in the observed building will not affect the camera operation. If you have to install a longer coaxial cable and power the camera from the external building, you will lose the independent power feature. One disadvantage I noticed is the cameras do not have IR illumination and rely on ambient light or the visible light from the camera for night videos. This means you will not be able to covertly observe or record anyone at your buildings at night unless you have adequate ambient light from nearby street or building lights.


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## Sachakins (30 Dec 2021)

Extra pull strings is great idea.
I forgot on my extra duct underground and having two 45° bends when tried to lay another cable it was a a real ballache, tried Hoover blow with no success, ended up attacking it from both ends with nylon fish sticks string on each and a strong neonydium magnet on each. The magnets met and held to each other, pulled string through. Pulled couple of extra strings through when put new cable in.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Dec 2021)

I put a loop of heavy cord in mine at my old house -just attach whatever to any place on the loop and pull it around. You need another pair of hands at the other end, but it's foolproof.


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## Spectric (31 Dec 2021)

If you need to get cables or something from A to B through a duct, roof space or some other set of obstacles then look at these, https://super-rod.co.uk/#products they come in different sizes which equate to a different amount of flex from fairly rigid to almost being able to tie it in a knot and I have found them to be a really valuable asset over the years and have got me out of some really tricky situations.


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## Sporky McGuffin (31 Dec 2021)

A rod set is a very handy thing to have.


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## Rob Cheetham (2 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> How long are the cable runs?


Underground run probably about 4/5 meters. Total run probably no more than 15m


Sporky McGuffin said:


> Then it'll need to be an outdoor rated cable


Does it need to be outdoor rated if I put it in flexible conduit and then into a through box?


RichardG said:


> 25mm MDPE water pipe is cheap and readily available


I like this idea. Just checked 50m for £35 from screwfix. Should be plenty to do three runs. I may carry on the runs into the walls at that length too lol. What is the inside diamter of the 25mm mdpe water pipe though. Do you know? Thanks


Spectric said:


> Analogue CCTV using RG59 cable (75 ohms) is ok upto 500 foot, and if using high quality cable can be run with your other cables but these days I would look at a digital system


Im not sure what ohms cable this swan system comes with. Will it say in the instruction manual. I was going to run some cat5e cable anyway so would it make sense to run a cat5e along with the RG59 cable just incase I do decide to swtich to a digital system in the future. If so will the cat5e cable be ok to be ran in the same conduit as the RG59 cable? Thanks


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## Rob Cheetham (2 Jan 2022)

thanks everyone for the replys. unfortunately i have been struck down with covid so been out of actionfor the last week. Still havent tried out my cctv to see how well it looks in the dark but will try later. Im just wondering that as I am going to run a cat5e connection into the workshop just incase would it be worth running another cat5e cable to the same place as the cctv camera just incase I do upgrade to a IP cctv system. Would the cat5e cable be ok ran in the same conduit as the RG59 analogue cable?. Thanks


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## Sporky McGuffin (2 Jan 2022)

RG59 is 75 ohm. 

I'd use outdoor CAT cable - not armoured - because it stands ip better to the temperature changes.


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## Spectric (2 Jan 2022)

The two data cables will be fine, when installing motorised cameras we used this type of cable where power and data were all contained within a single multicore, this is for analogue systems but you can get similar with LAN cables.









TruSecurity RG59 Composite Coaxial Cable







www.fscables.com


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## Rob Cheetham (2 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> RG59 is 75 ohm.
> 
> I'd use outdoor CAT cable - not armoured - because it stands ip better to the temperature changes.


i thought outdoor rated CAT cable would be armoured. Would you beable to reccomend a decent cat5e cable to use that will go under ground inside conduit then please. Cheaper the better but still want decent. Im looking on a website called cable monkey now and theres so many to choose from its quite confusing lol



Spectric said:


> The two data cables will be fine, when installing motorised cameras we used this type of cable where power and data were all contained within a single multicore, this is for analogue systems but you can get similar with LAN cables.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks. do you mean the cat5e and the analogue cable will be fine together. Have you aswell any good reccomendations for CAT 5e cable to go underground inside conduit and be pinned externally to side of house unitll fed inside. There seems to be soo much to choose from im not sure which one to get. Thanks


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## Spectric (2 Jan 2022)

Well to narrow it down, you do not need armoured CAT cable, but you do want a cable that is rated for external use and is often referred to as weatherproof. This cable will only be weatherproof if you fit suitable glands at each end though to prevent any ingress of moisture etc.

The protection will be afforded by the conduit and there are no safety issues as with power cables. I used to use cable made by Huber & Suhner but you don't need such large rolls or that spec, try External SHIELDED CAT5e Outdoor COPPER Ethernet Cable FTP Reel 100m 

Avoid cable with a CCA designation, as far as I am aware it is still not fully approved for networking, only solid or stranded copper is, cca is aluminium with a copper coating.


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## flying haggis (2 Jan 2022)

I would use 40 or 50mm white solvent weld pipe with gentle bends formed using 45 degree bends with a short bit of pipe to lessen the angle for one or two runs for cctv/data/alarm etc rather than blue pipe.

someone digging in the future will be more likely to be careful if they find a white pipe in the ground

and as spectris says AVOID cca cable


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## Rob Cheetham (2 Jan 2022)

Spectric said:


> , try External SHIELDED CAT5e Outdoor COPPER Ethernet Cable FTP Reel 100m


Thanks for the link. The 100m was out of stock so I have bought 2 of the 50m reels. Should be adequate for the runs I need. Thanks again for the info. Much appreciated.


flying haggis said:


> I would use 40 or 50mm white solvent weld pipe with gentle bends formed using 45 degree bends with a short bit of pipe to lessen the angle for one or two runs for cctv/data/alarm etc rather than blue pipe.


Ill give this a look thanks. The only probelm is that part of my underground path is about a 70mm gap between my garage and a patio rite outside the back entrance. Didnt think to lay ducting when I did the patio (slightly regretting that now lol) So I havent really got much room to play with there and that is where the armoured mains cable is aswell. Plus cant be bothered to take up a row of flags and relay them again. If it will fit then I may go for it but got a few bends to deal with so like you said will have to have 45 joints in there but ive been told one whole length is better than having joins especially when underground as to keeping it water tight. Thanks again for the info much appreciated.


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## RichardG (2 Jan 2022)

Rob Cheetham said:


> I like this idea. Just checked 50m for £35 from screwfix. Should be plenty to do three runs. I may carry on the runs into the walls at that length too lol. What is the inside diamter of the 25mm mdpe water pipe though. Do you know? Thanks



You can also get MDPE in black which is the normal colour for conduit, I'd also add a caution yellow buried electric tape over the top. MDPE is fairly tough though, it's designed to be buried, I don't believe 40/50mm solvent waste is.

It's just over 20mm inside diameter, I easily fitted 3 x cat 5 cables down without problem.


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## Dabop (3 Jan 2022)

Many of the Swanns do have IR illumination, but there is nothing stopping you adding an external IR illuminator near the camera (indeed as many crims use a mobile to 'look' for the IR leds on the camera, you can actually 'steer' them into looking at the camera by using a separate IR illuminator on say one side of a gate or alleyway, and the camera on the other- they 'look away' from the 'camera' (thinking the illuminator is the camera) and instead end up looking directly into the actual camera (with no IR LEDs LOL)




I used several of these to illuminate the full length of my driveway because the cameras inbuilt ones didn't have the range to cover it fully, and being IR, they don't 'light up' like normal spotlights would

The inbuilt power cable in the 'all in one' video leads really struggles to go past 100ft/30m in my experience (it really is tiny wires inside) but you can easily run a heavier DC power cable alongside the video cable and use that instead...
(my driveway one is 500m long and although the power cable was far too weak, the supplied video plus power was fine at that distance for the video signal

I didn't use exterior grade cables, just put it in UV resistant 'flexible split duit' used on trailer wiring etc and it's hung from tree to tree down the driveway about 20ft up the gum trees lol


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## Rob Cheetham (3 Jan 2022)

RichardG said:


> You can also get MDPE in black which is the normal colour for conduit, I'd also add a caution yellow buried electric tape over the top. MDPE is fairly tough though, it's designed to be buried, I don't believe 40/50mm solvent waste is.
> 
> It's just over 20mm inside diameter, I easily fitted 3 x cat 5 cables down without problem.


Ive already bought the blue but thanks. And im surprised but screwfix dont seem to do electric cuation tape. they do yellow and black hazard tape which will have to do as im not spending over £30 on a 300+m roll from electrical places haha. Good to know you fit 3 cables without a problem. How does it the mdpe pipe do on bends?



Dabop said:


> Many of the Swanns do have IR illumination, but there is nothing stopping you adding an external IR illuminator near the camera


this is good to know. im sure the one I bought though has IR illumination and am still to test it to see how good it is. I have got till near the end of the month to return though so got time. Thanks for the info


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## Sporky McGuffin (3 Jan 2022)

Rob Cheetham said:


> Good to know you fit 3 cables without a problem.



Three cables in one conduit isn't a great idea as they can jam. One, two, four, or more can't jam (assuming they fit of course). If you need to run three, run a fourth as well (or a draw wire). Or do the sums, but it's less work to run the extra cable!


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## Spectric (3 Jan 2022)

Rob Cheetham said:


> but ive been told one whole length is better than having joins especially when underground as to keeping it water tight.


That is a bonus of using the 4 inch drainage pipe, lots of space and no water ingress but as you have mentioned you overlooked the patio and have this issue of crossing it. If you also bury them in pea shingle before laying the tape this also gives warning there is something here.


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## RichardG (3 Jan 2022)

Rob Cheetham said:


> How does it the mdpe pipe do on bends?



MDPE is a bit of a pig in cold weather, tends to keep the round coil diameter. I used a few concrete blocks to weight the end down and then unrolled the coil down the trench.

To get a tight but smooth bend use a heat gun then bend more than you need, hold for a bit to cool, it will spring back a bit hence the over bend.


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## Chris_Pallet (3 Jan 2022)

Hi Rob, 

I set up exactly the same to the garage at end of the garden. I have the swann, no issues, good app and make sure you set up drop box. 

I ran 20meters BNC cable from the cctv box to the back of the garage, (power and picture) 
Cheap amazon brand £15

I bought the flexible conduit from screwfix £24 and just tucked in round the edge of the garden stones / bed / fencing etc. 

But a big but, before you open it up and throw away the receipt, check the cable and connections fit inside and run through the conduit! 
Mine didn't so I had to slice it all the way through to push it in. 

So I can say with it in a non water tight pipe it's been fine for about 2 years now. 

But if I was to do again, I'd run straight pvc pipe along the fence then grow climbing plant along it lol. As I done this at the front and back of the house. (pic) It just looks nicer and less digging.. 

Good luck....


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## Dabop (4 Jan 2022)

Rob Cheetham said:


> this is good to know. im sure the one I bought though has IR illumination and am still to test it to see how good it is. I have got till near the end of the month to return though so got time. Thanks for the info


Most of the Swanns I have seen (quite a few, very popular brand) of the 'bullet' type exteriors, will only light up about 5mor so at night reliably
The 'dome' ones less
My driveway one is a 'narrow field' (85 degree???) camera and during the day, you can reliably read a numberplate almost 100m down the drive on the big TV in the lounge room, but at night- yeah about 5-8m or so is about all the IR is good for- hence using the IR illuminators down the driveway- they were only about 10 bucks each off the bay place lol

(the other issue is most of the camera ones, being IR LEDs- are a bit 'pointy' ie a narrow brighter spot in the middle of the cameras view, but fades to darkness at the edges...
A lot involves 'suck it and see' when setting up, and choosing the cameras for the job, there are a range of 'view widths' 85 degrees, a120 degrees, 160 degrees- which are notably different in what appears on the screen- I went the narrow view 85 degree for the drive because I wanted that one to 'see' as far down it as possible, where the wall mounts are 120 so shorter range but 'see wider'


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## Rob Cheetham (4 Jan 2022)

Chris_Pallet said:


> I have the swann, no issues, good app and make sure you set up drop box.


Whats the IR illumination (night vision) like at night. And what is the overall quality like in the day. I havent had time to set it up yet


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## nickds1 (4 Jan 2022)

Fwiw I have a very similar setup to a sauna I built in the garden. I used the TLC 50mm X 50mtr conduit. It comes with a pull cord. What you need to do it to attach another pull cord to it, so when you pull something through it you are also pulling through another pull cord - so a kind of see-saw - you pull cables through in alternate directions.

I went for cat5e with a 1GB POE switch, so everything is IP and no video. Cameras & access point all powered via the cat5e cabling - very clean solution. No video cables, no power adapters, easy to detect if a camera is disconnected etc. Network is all UniFi.

I also ran 2*12mm SWA and 25mm MDPE water pipe in the same trench. Saunas take a lot of power and having an external shower is nice. WiFi out there means Spotify etc for music and mobiles/tablets etc. plus remote control of sauna (takes an hour to preheat, so setting remotely is good).

Note the rules are now that you should bury power cables about 50cm deep, so we hired a slot trencher for the day - wonderful tool if you're running a trench in hard clay...


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## Chris_Pallet (4 Jan 2022)

Rob Cheetham said:


> Whats the IR illumination (night vision) like at night. And what is the overall quality like in the day. I havent had time to set it up yet


Really good mate, just beware the IR night image isn't great if near a bright light so it gets confused. 
It's all about playing round with it...


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## Rob Cheetham (5 Jan 2022)

nickds1 said:


> Note the rules are now that you should bury power cables about 50cm deep, so we hired a slot trencher for the day - wonderful tool if you're running a trench in hard clay...


Yea i know what you mean by the clay. i gave up any furthere in the end as dug by spade but managed at least 50cm deep



Chris_Pallet said:


> Really good mate, just beware the IR night image isn't great if near a bright light so it gets confused.
> It's all about playing round with it...


cheers. the camera for the workshop is going at the end of the cannopy overhang outide and I have got four spots under the cannopy. Shouldnt be a problem though as they wont be used when out only when in the shop and mayby not even then (just for show mainly ) will test to see what you mean though. Thanks


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