# Why does everybody get angry easily these days?



## bertikus_maximus (3 Sep 2017)

Wanted to just get an incident that happened yesterday off my chest (as I know there are many others on this site who might have had similar issues as mine!).

A neighbour of mine (not a next door neighbour, but his house is about 70m away from my back garden) decided to spend most of the August Bank Holiday weekend playing very loud music, which somewhat diminished my ability to enjoy the warm weather in my garden. So when he started at it again yesterday, I took my local council's advice and popped around to politely ask if he could turn it down a bit. 

Needless to say, my friendly request was quickly taken offense to, and resulted in the guy effin' and jeffin' at me and generally being angry.

I just don't understand why people get so angry so easily! I don't think my request was unreasonable and I certainly didn't use any angry words in my request. I was polite and tried to be friendly (I don't want to spoil anybody else's enjoyment of life). If he disagreed with me, that's fine: but there's no need to get threatening and angry about it.

People are strange. I wish I could afford a house in the middle of the countryside with nobody else nearby!!


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## dzj (3 Sep 2017)

We have 'communal police' here armed with decibel meters. They write fines to people with the greatest of
pleasure.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2017)

I had an extremely good, loud hifi and an occasionally noisey neighbour who so it happened didn't like Beethoven much ... :lol:


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## whatknot (3 Sep 2017)

Those who know they are in the wrong are usually very quick to *lose it*

It seems a diet of rubbish TV suggests to many that the first thing to do is shout & swear as much and as loudly as possible, rather than discuss it :-( 

Sad lot really 




bertikus_maximus":2l0wlu61 said:


> Wanted to just get an incident that happened yesterday off my chest (as I know there are many others on this site who might have had similar issues as mine!).
> 
> A neighbour of mine (not a next door neighbour, but his house is about 70m away from my back garden) decided to spend most of the August Bank Holiday weekend playing very loud music, which somewhat diminished my ability to enjoy the warm weather in my garden. So when he started at it again yesterday, I took my local council's advice and popped around to politely ask if he could turn it down a bit.
> 
> ...


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## MrTeroo (3 Sep 2017)

whatknot":2djy00ev said:


> Those who know they are in the wrong are usually very quick to *lose it*
> 
> It seems a diet of rubbish TV suggests to many that the first thing to do is shout & swear as much and as loudly as possible, rather than discuss it :-(
> 
> Sad lot really



I've been of the opinion for a long time that the type of behaviour acted out on Eastenders will sink into the collective psyche as being the norm.

Horrible program


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## whatknot (3 Sep 2017)

Just one example of many unfortunately 

So much of todays activities online or on TV/film are so over the top 

The problem as I see it is getting worse as the films & TV programs get more violent and events are more drastic to outdo the previous ones 

So people seem to think they have to act that way too 

As in the original post, you worry about the reaction you will get for even minor things 



> I've been of the opinion for a long time that the type of behaviour acted out on Eastenders will sink into the collective psyche as being the norm.
> 
> Horrible program


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## NazNomad (3 Sep 2017)

whatknot":140u23p8 said:


> Those who know they are in the wrong are usually very quick to *lose it*



Absolutely.


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## RobinBHM (3 Sep 2017)

I believe there has been a significant shift in culture in the last 25 years.

I guess its a combination of causes:

-a general lowering of respect for authority: IE towards elders, police, teachers, hospital staff

-the shift of power has now swung too far, so teachers are scared to confront any pupils in case they get falsely accused 

- younger people now have a huge sense of entitlement

-rudeness seems to be accepted now at all age levels.

Mind you there have always been rude selfish people around


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## whatknot (3 Sep 2017)

I cannot disagree with any of that 

Including the part that there have always been rude (and aggressive) people 

Its just that there are so many more of them nowadays :-( 



RobinBHM":1opri7fr said:


> I believe there has been a significant shift in culture in the last 25 years.
> 
> I guess its a combination of causes:
> 
> ...


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2017)

Sometime people are just r soles. My ex nextdoor neighbour came to me one day and asked me to stop work as his wife was working nights. I replied that my paint brush wasn't actually making a noise, and he said yes but I might make a noise when I moved the ladder. Three days later I started my week of nights and he knew I went to bed at 3.00pm, so he waited until 3.30pm before he spent three hours outside my bedroom window trying to tune up his son's car. Many of the other neighbours thought he was a great guy, but I had the last laugh. He worked in the finance industry and fled to the Canaries (where he still is) having fleeced a few of them.


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## bertikus_maximus (3 Sep 2017)

RobinBHM":2txb74e3 said:


> -rudeness seems to be accepted now at all age levels.



Never more true in this case - I am 30 years old (which actually happened this year.... :? ) and the guy I had this 'disagreement' with must be at least 30 years older than me as he started spouting about having 'lived here for 30 years, well before those others houses were built' (not true as my house was built in 1921...). 



whatknot":2txb74e3 said:


> Those who know they are in the wrong are usually very quick to *lose it*



I suspect this the root of why he got angry - because he knew it was too loud and he'd been called out on it. Interestingly, the music did get quieter about 20 minutes after the discussion; but it certainly left me rattled as I don't really like confronting people and avoid it where possible.


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## RobinBHM (3 Sep 2017)

Sadly there are no winners in neighbour disputes. 

The neighbour in the wrong, if called out on it, will always bear a grudge. 

Those of us that dont like confrontations prefer to avoid arguments, but sadly selfish people force the issue.

Heres a good example:

Chav, Les Andrews gets owned

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ncgyii-W36I


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## Robbo3 (3 Sep 2017)

Not only do I agree with everything said in this thread, I would add

• Respect for authority has gone because those in authority (MPs, councils, police, church officials, teachers etc) often abused their powers & only said 'lessons will be learned' rather than being punished.

• Unstable home life. No father figure to set boundaries & lay down the rules.

• Influx of immigrants who have a completely different mindset to we who have, over several generations, had it ingrained in us to follow the law.


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## Fitzroy (3 Sep 2017)

It's a really interesting topic, most researchers in the topic tend towards the view that it's no worse today than it's ever been. There are loads of historic quotes about the feckless youth, some even attributed to Socrates, although providence is rather lacking!

F.


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## whatknot (3 Sep 2017)

Whats the expression? lies damn lies & statistics 

We are repeatedly informed that the crime rate has been dropping for years

The majority who have been around a few years know full well that the crime rate isn't dropping its just not reported as nothing is done about the crime 

shopping lifting is just ignored by the police in most cases 

Warnings and fines are handed out left right and centre, well its less paperwork isn't it and space in prison is tight 




Fitzroy":chdy3r7t said:


> It's a really interesting topic, most researchers in the topic tend towards the view that it's no worse today than it's ever been. There are loads of historic quotes about the feckless youth, some even attributed to Socrates, although providence is rather lacking!
> 
> F.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2017)

Whats the expression? lies, damn lies, statistics and government figures.


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## NazNomad (3 Sep 2017)

Leave Jezza out of this, he's a God amongst men. ;-)


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## Jacob (3 Sep 2017)

Had my post deleted. An easily angered mod I presume. :lol:


Mod Edit:- No, just one who objects to you continually steering threads into political soap box areas.


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## graduate_owner (3 Sep 2017)

I thought the expression was - lies, damn lies, statistics and pre election promises.

K


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## SammyQ (3 Sep 2017)

As an ex-teacher (with 36 years experience) may I suggest the prime cause of lack of respect is spineless laws foisted on us by zealous, inexperienced, utterly-incapable-of seeing-consequences, bleeding-heart idealists who have never experienced a council housing estate (like the one I grew up on) and the ammoral politicians who hitch a ride on the do-gooders cause to get re-elected?

Thus, the ungodly amongst us - and they are legion - know all too well, teachers, police, et al are hamstrung, while the perpetrators of our apathetic laws live comfortably, securely, well away from the sites of conflict brought about by their incompetence, astonishing naivity and - if I'm honest - their vanity!

Bring back the birch, hard labour and conscription.

Sam


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## RogerS (4 Sep 2017)

MrTeroo":eqm0a0xs said:


> whatknot":eqm0a0xs said:
> 
> 
> > Those who know they are in the wrong are usually very quick to *lose it*
> ...




Yes. Yes. Yes. Those soaps are positively vile and, as you say, make confrontation 'normal' behaviour. I'd ban them all.


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## n0legs (4 Sep 2017)

Matthew 10:16 says,,,,
I am sending you out as sheep amongst wolves.
Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

My interpretation of this has always been,,,
Carry the biggest stick and make sure there's no witnesses :lol:


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2017)

RogerS":3lgwsynb said:


> MrTeroo":3lgwsynb said:
> 
> 
> > whatknot":3lgwsynb said:
> ...


And Jeremy Clarkson and his ranting mates.


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## monkeybiter (4 Sep 2017)

Fair discussion is of course a good but extremely rare thing, an argument is, in my experience, futile. People come out of an argument with unchanged opinions and higher blood pressure. A complete waste of effort and counter-productive.

SammyQ : Whats's so wrong with being ungodly? It doesn't make me ungoodly.


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## whatknot (4 Sep 2017)

To be fair, I haven't seen an argument, only people stating the facts as they see them 

Most of which I heartily agree with 




monkeybiter":3e1g0bpm said:


> Fair discussion is of course a good but extremely rare thing, an argument is, in my experience, futile. People come out of an argument with unchanged opinions and higher blood pressure. A complete waste of effort and counter-productive.
> 
> SammyQ : Whats's so wrong with being ungodly? It doesn't make me ungoodly.


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## stuartpaul (4 Sep 2017)

SammyQ":1usgtp3a said:


> As an ex-teacher (with 36 years experience) may I suggest the prime cause of lack of respect is spineless laws foisted on us by zealous, inexperienced, utterly-incapable-of seeing-consequences, bleeding-heart idealists who have never experienced a council housing estate (like the one I grew up on) and the ammoral politicians who hitch a ride on the do-gooders cause to get re-elected?
> 
> Thus, the ungodly amongst us - and they are legion - know all too well, teachers, police, et al are hamstrung, while the perpetrators of our apathetic laws live comfortably, securely, well away from the sites of conflict brought about by their incompetence, astonishing naivity and - if I'm honest - their vanity!
> 
> ...


I was just about to blame the teachers  

But seriously that's where it starts. Teachers hands aren't just tied they're then riveted and super glued. 

Everyone (well, nearly everyone) goes on about their rights but they're always forgetting they have responsibilities as a member of society. My generation (nearly 60) were held accountable at an early age and generally had respect for authority and other people. Today there appears to be little or no accountability and personal responsibility looks like it's disappeared.

Of course a sweeping generalisation like most of these things, - there are many, many decent people around. Just a shame that the turds always float to the top!


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2017)

monkeybiter":2zvzsvl5 said:


> Fair discussion is of course a good but extremely rare thing, an argument is, in my experience, futile. People come out of an argument with unchanged opinions and higher blood pressure. A complete waste of effort and counter-productive.
> ....


I think people need the practice. That's partly why they get so angry - they don't argue enough and can't handle views different from their own.
There's that vague social-gathering rule about not talking about politics, religion, sex, etc. I think people should talk about them more, not less, and have their ideas challenged and possibly changed.


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## RobinBHM (4 Sep 2017)

> I think people need the practice. That's partly why they get so angry - they don't argue enough and can't handle views different from their own.
> There's that vague social-gathering rule about not talking about politics, religion, sex, etc. I think people should talk about them more, not less, and have their ideas challenged and possibly changed.



But not on this forum  -or disguised as sharpening at the very least.......


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## bertikus_maximus (4 Sep 2017)

I think a lot of it is pure selfishness, coupled with a sense of entitlement. I think there is a vast amount of people out there who only think of themselves and stuff anybody else. I think that's true of all walks of society: whatever age or background. As others have already commented, I suspect some of that is driven by the media we surround ourselves with today, which give a false impression of what the type of behaviour is acceptable. It really makes me sad for society that its seen as being 'cool' to be stupid and angry at everything, as it that will make you some sort of mega rich superstar. It doesn't. It just makes you a tit. 

It really is a shame that people can't just think a bit more about others and be a bit friendlier. Things would be much better, I think, if they were.


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## iNewbie (4 Sep 2017)

Sometimes they're on stuff....and some don't need stuff to be an donkeys bottom.


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## iNewbie (4 Sep 2017)

And then theres a the computer Games some are hooked on. Kill this, kill that...


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## MickCheese (4 Sep 2017)

Many years ago when i was mid 20s i lived next to a retired couple who you would think would be as nice as pie. it turned out he was a vile old man who made our life hell. 

We ended up having to move house before I killed him.

But I learnt something from that encounter and that was I will never fall out with a neighbour again. It was all consuming, my blood would boil every time i saw or heard him.

Turned out he was interfering with his daughters so maybe my sixth sense was working.

So, my advice is, try to make peace with this guy as it can very easily turn nasty. I'm no shrinking violet, in fact far from it, confrontation does not faze me, but now much older and wiser i realise there is more to winning a war than winning a single battle.

Mick


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2017)

Well yes you just have to be philosophical and rein in the killer instinct!
If you had a family of nuisance chimpanzees next door you'd be pist off but you wouldn't blame the chimps - being prats is what they do. Nuisance neighbours similar - just have to try to see them as an inconvenient but natural phenomenon; when they get angry perhaps just laugh at them?


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Sep 2017)

When we bought the house we lived in for 22 years we were warned that the neighbour on one side was a bit odd, and the one on the other was a really nice guy. It transpired the one who was "odd" was one of the nicest, kindest men I've ever met and the supposedly nice one was a female sexual organ.


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## Robbo3 (5 Sep 2017)

iNewbie":jn64qcrc said:


> And then theres a the computer Games some are hooked on. Kill this, kill that...


I've played plenty of 'first person shooters' & even allowed my daughter to play them. It hasn't changed either of us because we realise that it is just a game nothing more.
What it does tend to do, is desensitize you to certain situations which once would have been shocking or even traumatic, but that's no worse than the TV programmes which follow the police or ambulances.


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## iNewbie (5 Sep 2017)

Robbo3":238pxrne said:


> iNewbie":238pxrne said:
> 
> 
> > And then theres a the computer Games some are hooked on. Kill this, kill that...
> ...



The thread title is: Why does _everybody_ get angry easily these days. That'll include kids - some who are of an age where they shouldn't be playing them, and yes it can desensitise people and can be a reason why some kids go a bit further than a slap. Ironically some parents won't have their kids watching those TV programmes, or, the kids will be on computer!


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## stuartpaul (5 Sep 2017)

Jacob":2e0uysb6 said:


> Well yes you just have to be philosophical and rein in the killer instinct!
> If you had a family of nuisance chimpanzees next door you'd be pist off but you wouldn't blame the chimps - being prats is what they do. Nuisance neighbours similar - just have to try to see them as an inconvenient but natural phenomenon; when they get angry perhaps just laugh at them?


With respect utter cobblers!

My expectations of chimps is ever so slightly different than from human beings. And laughing at angry people is a recipe for something far more serious.


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## Jacob (5 Sep 2017)

Well stay angry then, if that's what turns you on!


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## novocaine (5 Sep 2017)

the mind controlling drugs put in the vapour stream of jets has been removed, we are no longer receiving the calming effects and as such are seeing the true nature of our society. 

this is what happens when meddling conspiracy theorist accidentally hit on a truth, we all have to suffer. 

The moon landings were faked (but in order to get believable footage they went to the moon to film them)
Diana isn't dead, neither is Elvis (who works in our chippy)
if you play terresa mays (no capitals) brexit speech backwards it tells you to kill all goldfish.

where did I put that tin foil hat? they are all out to get me, I don't want them reading my thoughts. 

(please read the above as a joke)


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## whatknot (5 Sep 2017)

Tuh! and I thought you were being serious, I am glad you made it clear at the end ;-) 



novocaine":1jut6b2r said:


> the mind controlling drugs put in the vapour stream of jets has been removed, we are no longer receiving the calming effects and as such are seeing the true nature of our society.
> 
> this is what happens when meddling conspiracy theorist accidentally hit on a truth, we all have to suffer.
> 
> ...


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## stuartpaul (5 Sep 2017)

Jacob":o4ci0cyy said:


> Well stay angry then, if that's what turns you on!


Who said I'm angry? I'm just completely disagreeing with a silly statement you made, - doesn't make me angry. Perhaps a tad imbecilic for arguing with you but we all have off days


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## novocaine (5 Sep 2017)

whatknot":1db7ib1a said:


> Tuh! and I thought you were being serious, I am glad you made it clear at the end ;-)



to many people these days believe it when you say something so blatantly obvious as to require you to add additional information for clarity. better safe than sorry. 

oh and they normally get really angry about it. especially when you point out how genuinely insane the theory is. 

oh and just to give trolls something else, I blame religion, you may decide which and in what way.


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## Droogs (5 Sep 2017)

novocaine, if you want to blame someone/thing then blame enki afterall he apparently invented us. religion is just a sort of early chinese to english user mannual written by us as he saw fit not to include one


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## novocaine (5 Sep 2017)

interesting, you chose Sumerian. 

he was the deity of craft I guess, so it makes sense. 

fancy a game of Ur?


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## bertikus_maximus (5 Sep 2017)

MickCheese":qygo22v1 said:


> So, my advice is, try to make peace with this guy as it can very easily turn nasty. I'm no shrinking violet, in fact far from it, confrontation does not faze me, but now much older and wiser i realise there is more to winning a war than winning a single battle.
> 
> Mick



I finished the conversation by saying I was sorry I'd upset him and that it wasn't my intention to make him angry, so I've already got part way to making peace I think. Luckily, this guy isn't a direct neighbour so I shouldn't have to see him much; and I certainly intend to just leave him well alone in future. If I do see him again and he seems alright about it, I'll say sorry again.

On the other hand, if I have further troubles, my strategy is to speak to a couple of other neighbours who have lived in the area as long as this guy and find out if they've had any trouble before. I'll also make a record of times etc. in case I do need to go to the council. I've already written down what I could remember of the conversation, so I have that in evidence if needed in the future. 

I'm sure it'll be fine in the long run - might be he just was taken a back by my request and didn't mean to get upset. Could be he feels bad about it as me!


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## RogerS (5 Sep 2017)

Jacob":1l732s68 said:


> ..... Nuisance neighbours similar - just have to try to see them as an inconvenient but natural phenomenon; when they get angry perhaps just laugh at them?



Really ? Is that what you did when your next-door neighbour was using his strimmer all day ?


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Sep 2017)

Oh, to have the memory of a blooddy elephant. :lol:


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## RogerS (5 Sep 2017)

phil.p":122lia1n said:


> Oh, to have the memory of a blooddy elephant. :lol:




You will need to change sex !


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2017)

RogerS":3ii4pkhc said:


> Jacob":3ii4pkhc said:
> 
> 
> > ..... Nuisance neighbours similar - just have to try to see them as an inconvenient but natural phenomenon; when they get angry perhaps just laugh at them?
> ...


I'm amazed that you can remember this Roger - it was years and years ago. It must have struck a chord with you!
No I'm not perfect (ask BB he'll confirm this) and have been known to lose my rag.


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## rafezetter (6 Sep 2017)

Fitzroy":2eo7grze said:


> It's a really interesting topic, most researchers in the topic tend towards the view that it's no worse today than it's ever been. There are loads of historic quotes about the feckless youth, some even attributed to Socrates, although providence is rather lacking!
> 
> F.



Oh, there's always been a feckless youth - but in centuries past annoying little sharts could be hauled away or just quietly beaten in a back alley by some public minded policeman / man-at-arms / centurion, nowadays it's more likely the policeman will get the beating by a group of 12 year olds carrying knives. Having a father figure isn't as helpful as people always think, I've come across several fathers who were just as deserving of the same treatment as Mussolini, about whom other people say is "a nice guy", one of which threatened to burn my house down.

Yes he got arrested.

Another doozy I had about 3 years ago was a guy was in the supermarket with his crash helmet on trying to talk to an obviously foreign lady working the till; oh and he had a thick South African accent. After maybe 5 minutes I suggested he take his helmet off - he promptly told me to * off and actually tried to headbutt me. Luckily I'm a bit more agile than I look and spent many years doing various martial arts. He spent the next 20 minutes restrained on the floor and he too, was arrested.

I think as has been mentioned no-one fears the police or the courts anymore. Prison should be a place whereby when you are sentenced you are hauled away screaming for mercy, most seem to be happy to get 3 square a day, TV, internet and a free university education if they fancy it.

I'd drop the lot in afghanistan and let _them_ fight Isis or whomever, but without giving them any weaponry ofc - everyone likes a challenge right? :lol:


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## HappyHacker (6 Sep 2017)

I think rafezetter has an excellent point. If the police arrest someone there is a fair chance unless there is video, DNA and witness evidence the CPS will decide that the chances of a successful prosecution are too low and will let them go. If they do get to court the sentencing guidelines will be interpreted in the most lenient way so they leave court laughing. If by some chance they actually get to prison they can continue harassing witnesses and run their criminal enterprises while appealing against their sentence on legal aid. 

So the end result is there is no downside for the majority of those who have anger management issues.

I know someone who lives next to a family of drug dealers/ thieves/ thugs. He knows when there is to be a police raid as all the evidence is taken away the night before so the police find nothing. When they have a local policeman allocated to the area if he/she takes too much interest in the families activities he/she gets moved or asks for a transfer as they are prevented from doing their job. The person I know has had apologies from the CPS and the police about the mishandling of prosecutions against individuals in the family. Anyone who does give evidence against the family including police officers have their car/caravan/house windows thrashed/broken/set alight. The police can't do anything as their is no evidence or are unwilling to find the evidence. Despite having a restraining order against members of the family to keep them away from the person I know, if he is threatened by by one of them the police say it is a domestic and won't attend. Instead the family phone the police and say they are being threatened and the police come out straight away to interview the person I know about his threatening behaviour.

I can see the day when vigilante behaviour becomes more common, the legal system will become interested then, but only in the vigilantes.


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## rafezetter (6 Sep 2017)

A long time ago in a different life I used to be a Guardian Angel, one of the guys who rode the london underground at night a couple of times a week. We had pretty good ties with the met police, but when they would come to talk to us about some incident or other, while generally positive about what we did, they were always careful to make sure we understood no favor would be given if things got out of hand.

In the two and a half years I did this I don't recall any of our guys getting actually charged with assault against an offender we were trying to subdue, but it's probable there were a few close calls.

That was 28 years ago and things were better, only marginally, but they were as I don't recall gangs of young teens (11-14) looking for trouble, that previously used to be confined to mostly the poor tower block estates or reading about things that kids under 15/16 had done that made national news.

We've got a group near us that are clearly not afraid of the police, boys and more importantly equal number of girls. One of whom was just 11, I know this because she was the daughter of one of the guys that lived in the house (but she lived with her mum) - we would get frequent visits from the police, asking if we knew her whereabouts or if she had been at the house between X and Y time. Several of them already have records, not surprisingly, the guy who threatened to burn my house down is the father of two of them.

For a long time I've thought that re-introducing national service would have a good impact on kicking the "angry little p*ss-ant" out of most youth we seem to breed nowadays.


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## RogerS (7 Sep 2017)

It's a four-pronged approach that is needed IMO.

(1) Make the punishment fit the crime, make it painful, awkward and embarrassing. Invest in education and training in prisons but remove TV's and cuddly toys.

(2) Put invest time, effort and money in trying to improve and educate their circumstances and opportunities.

(3) Legalise drugs. They are going to take them no matter what. Free issue them. Then put a levy on the insurance companies that corresponds to the amount that they shell out due to break-ins and robberies etc to fuel them buying drugs and feed that money back into (2)

(4) Don't give air-time to hand-wringing Guardian-readers :wink:


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2017)

RogerS":3n4oeptv said:


> ........
> (1) ............ Invest in education and training in prisons ............
> 
> (2) Put invest time, effort and money in trying to improve and educate their circumstances and opportunities.
> ...


I'd agree with the above. You haven't become a hand-wringing Guardian reader have you Roger?
Punishment isn't relevant. It may give satisfaction to the birch wielding Telegraph readers but it doesn't address the problems and may make them worse.
I'd include alcohol in item 3 above. It's a major burden on the state and society. I say this reluctantly - being partial to a glass or two myself.


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## RogerS (7 Sep 2017)

Jacob":xq52bn5d said:


> RogerS":xq52bn5d said:
> 
> 
> > ........
> ...



Punishment most certainly IS relevant and the lack thereof has contributed to where we are today. So are you saying that when someone breaks into your house, wrecks it and leaves a nice little brown steaming present on the middle of your duvet that you will go and give them a hug and make them a nice cup of tea ? Because that hand-wringing, sack-cloth wearing approach is why we are where we are today.

Point (4) applies.


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2017)

"Giving them a hug and make them a nice cup of tea plus hand-wringing, sack-cloth wearing", are not the alternatives to punishment, except in the eyes of birch wielding Telegraph readers and their ilk.
The Swedish system is supposed to work - there is punishment in loss of liberty, but a huge emphasis on rehab.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... nils-oberg
Cheaper in the long run.


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## RogerS (7 Sep 2017)

Sorry Jacob. Fundamentally disagree with your naive approach. That article was written in 2014 and has been widely discredited in the light of increases in crime in Sweden. But as we'll never agree, I'll not respond to you on this point any further.


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2017)

RogerS":29syv7pj said:


> Sorry Jacob. Fundamentally disagree with your naive approach. That article was written in 2014 and has been widely discredited in the light of increases in crime in Sweden. But as we'll never agree, I'll not respond to you on this point any further.


Where has it been discredited? Do you have any references? I've no interest either way but would like to know what the truth is.


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## whatknot (7 Sep 2017)

Legalise drugs ?? madness 

That is tantamount to saying we don't know how to resolve a problem so we will make it go away by legalising it 

All that would happen is the authorities would set a price and the lowlife scum that pedal the stuff would undercut that price and you are just as you are now, only worse as a lot of people would think its okay to take them as its legal 

More action on the gangs making millions out of it is what we need, stiffer penalties not hugs & holidays 

What next, they can't stop people speeding over 70mph so make it legal to speed up to 150mph ?


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## DennisCA (7 Sep 2017)

What I've realize is that western societies today are older than ever and only keep getting older, and the older generations have most of the economic and political power in our society. So IMO it's not fair to lay the blame for what you don't like with todays society on the younger generations, they aren't the ones who created it or have the power in it, but they are gonna have to live in it. 

And younger generations of today, unlike the the generations since the 2nd world war, don't have anywhere near the same positive futures ahead of them with growth and good prospects, steady jobs and cheap housing. The young of today have got very little to look forward to, more temp jobs, less security, less money, no houses, no prospects, getting automated out of a life, and only having ever increasing pressure on themselves to become "market friendly" in an ever urbanized, globalized, cutthroat world.


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2017)

whatknot":2z4kudmi said:


> Legalise drugs ?? madness
> 
> That is tantamount to saying we don't know how to resolve a problem so we will make it go away by legalising it
> ....


It's worked very well with tobacco. Usage has dropped dramatically and criminal activity is minimal. In other words we _do_ know how to resolve the problem.


> What next, they can't stop people speeding over 70mph so make it legal to speed up to 150mph ?


Presumably you don't drive. 
If you did you would notice that almost everybody sticks to the 70 limit. The law seems to work pretty well. Roads have got safer and safer.


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## RogerS (7 Sep 2017)

whatknot":3c88suo3 said:


> .....
> That is tantamount to saying we don't know how to resolve a problem so we will make it go away by legalising it.
> 
> All that would happen is the authorities would set a price and the lowlife scum that pedal the stuff would undercut that price and you are just as you are now, only worse as a lot of people would think its okay to take them as its legal
> ...



Please read what I posted. I did NOT say that drug-taking would go away. It never will. But if you decriminalise drug-taking and free issue (not charge a low price) drugs then you remove the by-product and negative effect on the rest of society viz break-ins, muggings etc. If you free-issue the drugs then the gangs lose their revenue.

There is no evidence that decriminalising drugs will lead to an increase.

I'd vote for no speed limits. Remove traffic lights, make a lot of streets mixed use. And throw the book at cyclists who mow down and kill pedestrians.


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## RogerS (7 Sep 2017)

Jacob":3bin848k said:


> whatknot":3bin848k said:
> 
> 
> > Legalise drugs ?? madness
> ...



Can't see the link between the drop in smoking and legalising drugs. How does that work ?


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## morfa (7 Sep 2017)

I do love these Grumpy Old Man threads that these forums seem to throw up. The engineers thread from a little while ago was another great one. Keep it up boys!


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## whatknot (7 Sep 2017)

Yes that would make great sense wouldn't it (NOT) 

As to cyclists as we all know they cause untold number of deaths on out roads and pathways unlike the law abiding drivers who force them off the road in the first place due to their reckless driving and lack of care for anyone else but themselves 

I am a driver and cyclist and ex motorcyclist, inconsiderate drivers are far and away the biggest problem 


I'd vote for no speed limits. Remove traffic lights, make a lot of streets mixed use. And throw the book at cyclists who mow down and kill pedestrians.[/quote]


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## NazNomad (7 Sep 2017)

iNewbie":3pfkbrqc said:


> And then theres a the computer Games some are hooked on. Kill this, kill that...



I've lost count of the number of times I killed a Nazi with a perfect headshot from 400 yds or jumped my car off a multi-storey car park in real life... just because I've done those things in a game. :roll: :roll: 

As they say, ''guns don't kill people - morons with guns kill people''.


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## RogerS (7 Sep 2017)

whatknot":3n7p87t8 said:


> Yes that would make great sense wouldn't it (NOT)



Yes it does. Read here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ts-drivers


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## Droogs (7 Sep 2017)

Naz, technically it's the shock of a bullet's impact that kills people. After all even morons with guns don't throw them at people


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## rafezetter (7 Sep 2017)

whatknot":2ohdqn7n said:


> Legalise drugs ?? madness
> 
> That is tantamount to saying we don't know how to resolve a problem so we will make it go away by legalising it
> 
> ...



Umm... ever heard of the Autobahns in Germany? yeah, far as I know there are no limits, BUT I think insurance companies only insure you up to a certain limit of speed, if proven over that; assuming you survived, you're not covered.

Because the war on drugs in Columbia, USA and a whole slew of other countries is going REALLY well, they have all been shown the error of thier ways and want to be nice peopel from now on... eh?

I'm not a fan of drugs, especially MJ, however I'm even less of a fan of having my house broken into (twice) which may or may not have been drug related.

The illlegal drug industry will NEVER EVER EVER be broken by force, because it's just too damned profitable. About the only surefire way to make something lose all it's value is to let everyone who wants to, do it. If every MJ user was legally allowed a couple of plants (as they are in certain EU countries), the demand would bottom out in the time it takes to grow the first batch. Why would there be a need for grow-ops when no-one's buying anymore? The "lowlife scum" would then be left scrabbling for the few users who either can't or won't grow thier own, and will undercut each other on price until it's just not worth the effort or the risk - assuming the govt is intelligent enough to make sure that "supplying" is still an offence. 

Most MJ suppliers do it because it's EASY, no processing with chemicals etc, no "meth lab" required, grow - harvest - sell. I would speculate that with the bottom out of the market most WOULD NOT move onto supplying class A drugs, it's hard, and requires skills most stoners just don't have, plus the lowlife scum that are already doing it locally might have something to say about that.

You'll also kill the "dodgy gear" suppliers who cut thier resin with other products, and that's before you even get into the whole "MJ has been medically proven to aid pain and symptom relief for certain severe medical ailments" situation.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but the combined efforts of major nations of the world have not managed to slow the manufacture and supply of drugs, AT ALL.

The class A stuff is a harder nut to crack, but the usage of that is far smaller - or so it would seem. Remove the wasted manpower for all the nickle and dime stuff, and they can then go for the bigger suppliers and those selling class A drugs.


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## bugbear (7 Sep 2017)

(found on the 'web recently)





BugBear


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## RogerP (7 Sep 2017)

> Umm... ever heard of the Autobahns in Germany? yeah, far as I know there are no limits, BUT I think insurance companies only insure you up to a certain limit of speed, if proven over that; assuming you survived, you're not covered.


Over half of the Autobahns in Germany have a 130 kph speed restriction.


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## NazNomad (7 Sep 2017)

RogerP":tcyiu69u said:


> > Umm... ever heard of the Autobahns in Germany? yeah, far as I know there are no limits, BUT I think insurance companies only insure you up to a certain limit of speed, if proven over that; assuming you survived, you're not covered.
> 
> 
> Over half of the Autobahns in Germany have a 130 kph speed restriction.




... and the ''Plod in a Porsche'' take a dim view of Die Englanders reversing up the wrongly-taken sliproad to get back on the Autobahn. DAMHIKT.

Apparently, ''you are not allowed to do that in this country''.

I resisted the urge to preach to him about doing wrong in other countries. :-D


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## iNewbie (7 Sep 2017)

NazNomad":2wlit9b1 said:


> iNewbie":2wlit9b1 said:
> 
> 
> > And then theres a the computer Games some are hooked on. Kill this, kill that...
> ...



Who mentioned guns, I didn't, you did. Even though guns are easier to come by these days you're more likely to get stabbed... Cuz these days thats not a problem with the younger generation, is it. :roll:


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## NazNomad (7 Sep 2017)

iNewbie":14ndey80 said:


> Who mentioned guns, I didn't, you did.



You mentioned the other taboo 'g' word ... games.

Your point is?


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## iNewbie (7 Sep 2017)

Your point is?


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2017)

My friend is an experienced GP (working in Penzance, which has awful drug problems), and we've had this conversation before - he would say legalise ALL drugs without question, and take crime out of the equation. Much of the harm done is because of the impurity of street suppies, besides which drugs addiction has dropped in Countries that have legalised them and increased in many that haven't. 
In our areas a few years ago over 75% of all crime was thought to be drug related - why should the rest of suffer because a moron wants to take more and more heroin and wins himself a Darwin Award?


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## lanemaux (7 Sep 2017)

Gentlemen, if I may address one of the side topics recently brought up , I may have a rather oddly acquired set of opinions.
I am from the somewhat odd country of Canada , a place soon to legalize the recreational use of marijuana. A lesser known fact is that medical usage by prescription from an M.D. has been in place for some time now. I hold such a prescription to aid me in my cancer struggle and can state with authority that it works very well for a number of annoying symptoms , be they side affects from other drugs (chemotherapy , hormone therapy ) or from the disease itself. For appetite and nausea related symptoms a THC heavy product works very well. For muscular cramping, spasms and restless leg syndrome a high CBD content is preferred . I have all of these ,and since I prefer not to wander about with my head in a state of altered condition , I take an extracted oil instead of smoking the drug. The active components of the plant are separated with alcohol or butane and the extract is then diluted with a stable vegetable oil and ingested orally about a Ml at a time at wide intervals, all very controlled you see. 
Since I began , I have been much in contact with members of the illegal recreational crowd most of whom I have grown very fond of. Since legal conditions here are quite different from the UK , I suspect our stoners are a bit different as well.Since the laws have loosened up over the last few years , the number of criminal dealers has dropped off sharply , replaced by neighbourhood providers, still punishable by law but supposedly soon to be less so. The recreational types have taken on a nearly social aspect now, getting together to trade varieties , compare flavour profiles and proudly proclaim potency achieved. You might even think of it like a wine tasting , not sounding very criminal at all. My belief is that from a societal point of view this is a desirable outcome . Don't misunderstand me , criminal grow operations still abound and hardened criminals are still involved, but in my experience far less than before. Just my 2 cents worth.
Now as to the anger issue, well , people get pretty angry at me for advocating marijuana use and often are very unaware of the facts of the issue. I believe there is a direct correspondence between not knowing and anger, an obvious cure might be to understand more clearly what one is being angered by. Probably a forlorn hope , yet I remain optimistic. 
Mike


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2017)

Not sure exactly what the law is here but marijuana is widely available, for anybody wishing to make a little effort. Not that I've touched it myself for many years though I've nothing against it in moderation - apparently it can be taken in excess and lead to complications but alcohol is vastly more destructive.
Anger is often related to impotence (in the general sense) IMHO.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Sep 2017)

One of the main problems now with marijuana is that because it is illegal there is a never ending struggle to breed stronger and stronger varieties - for anyone who just wants to chill out and not to be out of their trees for the weekend it has become very difficult to get hold of the right product. Another reason for legalisation?
How many people become violent after an excess of alcohol? probably millions. My father was one - he used to go absolutely loopy. Not an inherited trait, fortunately. How many people get violent after marijuana? Very, very few. Skunk is a bit different, maybe, but that's another reason for legalising drugs.

Interestingly, there was an article in The Times which told of Californian growers going out of business because of the phenominal cost of compliance with rules and regulations - which immediately puts the ball back in the illegal court. That's the sort of stupid route this Country would take.


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## lanemaux (7 Sep 2017)

Regulations in the legal growing operations here are not too well thought out either I'm afraid , but with a little luck might get more logical. As an example , in the facility just north of me the use of Hydrogen peroxide as a disinfectant for the growing areas was stopped by health Canada and replaced by approved harsh chemicals. After rinsing peroxide is about as harmful as the water around here, some of the chemicals however produce toxic run-off that goes straight to the drains and then back to Lake Huron, madness. Also the plant is run by corporate bean counters rather than those with knowledge of growing who were hired for that purpose. The result is massive _inefficiency_ in production rather than the reverse. I know this because someone near to me is on the inside and is near to tears rather than overjoyed at what should be their dream job. The result of this top heavy bureaucracy is shortages of supply , poor product and prices on par or higher than from the enthusiast producers. A pity , as the staff on tap KNOW the answers to all of these problems. They worked them out years ago in basements , garages and closets in some cases. The only real problem left is one of scale as a disease in one plant for a hobbyist is cause for remedial action and small regrets , on an industrial scale , by the time a diseased plant is identified, examined ,discussed in committee , bumped upstairs for action recommendation and finally dealt with (poorly) many thousands of plants are now compost. Small wonder the growers cry.


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## benji81 (7 Sep 2017)

people are generally angrier because they are less respectful nowdays. If only they were disciplined properly when they were younger they would oprate a better set of morals!


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## heimlaga (8 Sep 2017)

I think this anger epidemic sweeping across the western world comes from five sources:

1. No readiness to solve problems. In modern society people are taught that problems should not exist in a good life. Everything must be smoothed and perfect from the outset ond only the "others" have problems to deal with. People are olso taught to look down on those "others" in trouble and feel entitled as long as there is no trouble in their own lives. This means that as soon as there is a minor problem or conflict in the life of modern man the first priority is to pretend that it doesn't exist and to at any cost avoid dealing with it. If that avoidance doesn't work there will be a mental seizure resulting in either anger or somethig even worse.

2. A very fragile self confidence. In modern society most people know nothing and are unable to do anything and are well aware of that fact. It is hard to develop a sound self confidence if you have no abilities of your own except watching television and eating fast food and riding a bus to a brain killing job or to the unemployment agency. 
The fixation with facade makes things even worse. People compare their own lives with the posh facade of the upper crust as displeyed everywhere and so they feel worthless. 
Marketing also takes part in tearing down ordinary people's self confidence so that it can be temporarily patched up by buying stuff. Lots of people are living beyond their means and are up to their noses in depth just to be able to keep up with the joneses and prove that they have themselves some value after all. 

3. The approval of bullies. In today's society the bully is admired for some weird reason.

4. Urbanisation. Tightly packed animals of more highy developed species tend to develop agressive behaviour especially if they have nothing meaningful to do.

5. Television. Has been discussed already in this thread.


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## Jacob (8 Sep 2017)

benji81":1fds09xu said:


> people are generally angrier because they are less respectful nowdays. If only they were disciplined properly when they were younger they would oprate a better set of morals!


The problem here is that it's mainly angry people who believe in discipline as a solution and that respect is won by force. Maybe they should start by beating themselves up? :lol:


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## RogerS (8 Sep 2017)

Jacob":2tbk8yy5 said:


> benji81":2tbk8yy5 said:
> 
> 
> > people are generally angrier because they are less respectful nowdays. If only they were disciplined properly when they were younger they would oprate a better set of morals!
> ...



Where on earth have you dreamed that one up from, Jacob? It's bizarre. Even for you !!


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## dcmguy (8 Sep 2017)

If, like Chicken-Licken, you fear the sky may be falling in then maybe listening to some relatively calming music will help? 

They say music transcends all divides ... so maybe a little number by Marilyn Manson would help? (though that choice may depend on your starting point as to whether it's calming for you!) 

This maybe 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNEolxBmso


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## rafezetter (8 Sep 2017)

lanemaux":2s10cpki said:


> The recreational types have taken on a nearly social aspect now, getting together to trade varieties , compare flavour profiles and proudly proclaim potency achieved. You might even think of it like a wine tasting , not sounding very criminal at all.
> Mike



"Would Sir & Madam like to try this blend?"

*puff.... long inhale..... hold it..... and exhale*

"Hmmm... I'm getting butterflies and rainbows..... and a merest backnote of pink elephants.... what do you think dear?" *Inane grin and slight drool* "yes, we'll take 2 bags "....


That really made me laugh


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