# Talking myself out of buying premium tools



## tibi (19 Jun 2021)

Hello, 

I am just building my workshop and it will be finished in a month or two. After I finish the workshop and build myself a proper workbench, I have decided to save 50 Euros every month and create a budget for my woodworking tools. 

My OCD would like to have all those Veritas / Lie Nielsen tools nicely arranged in a Studley-like tool chest, but my other tiny voice (and the voice of Paul Sellers) tells me that woodworking is not about that. Our ancestors did not have those 100 EUR / piece chisels and special 600 Eur shooting planes and they made furniture that was in many ways superior to the one that we are building now. They just used the tools that were available to them at that time. They were not obsessed with them. 

For me buying premium tools is not about not having enough money to buy them. To buy a whole set of premium tools that I would ever need would cost me as much as one professional-grade big woodworking machine. In a few years of saving, anyone living in Europe could buy that set of tools. There are some tools, that I would need to buy anyway as a new premium tool. A vintage router plane price + import fees + shipping would cost me almost as a new Veritas router plane, so I would buy the new one. 

If I let myself go the route of collecting only premium tools, I would become a tool collector. I would long much more for having the next tool than doing the actual woodworking with the tools that I have available. I have nothing against that mindset if someone wants to be a collector, but personally, I would like to enjoy the building process and not drool over the next shiny tool in my tool chest.

I do not want to buy rubbish tools from big box stores or those SOBA/FAITHFUL, etc. brands, just to save money. If you buy a square, that is out of square or a plane, that no amount of tweaking can render usable, then you cannot have a good feeling about your woodworking endeavors. 

Someone once told that you should buy the best tools you can afford. Everyone could do that if they are willing to wait long enough to save for the best tools ( for some it would be sooner, for others later). But the question is do we really need the best tools? Do I need that 100 Eur/piece Chisel or 200 Eur Japanese chisel made by a master craftsman, if I can do the same work with a 10 Eur Chisel from Narex? Yes the edge will not last as long and there is no wow effect, but it will get the job done. Or do I need that no.4 bronze Lie Nielsen plane, if the old Stanley, that is properly tuned and sharpened will give me similar results? 

Did you ever solve such a dilemma if you need all the premium tools that you see in so many woodworking Instagram posts from the workshops all over the world to make you a happy woodworker yourself? What are your thoughts on this? 

Thank you.


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## Adam W. (19 Jun 2021)

I like nice tools and I like using them to make nice stuff.

Mine are predominantly bought second hand, as I don't like new tool prices.


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## Hallelujahal (19 Jun 2021)

'Buy cheap buy twice' was what my old man always said. However, he also said 'you've got to cut your cloth' - so I guess my approach is an amalgamation of the two. I like to get the best I can afford, but I'm not going to go over my budget just for some tool. Fettling and fixing tools is also what I enjoy doing at times as well. Life's a compromise!


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## thetyreman (19 Jun 2021)

only in 2016 when I started woodworking the price of many old tools was far far lower than they are now, I would not bother with an old router plane, the veritas or lie neilsen will be superior, it all depends on what work you plan on doing, not too long ago it made sense to buy cheap tools, the prices have gone mental since then for several reasons, the paul sellers effect, brexit and covid have pushed prices up and up.

There is nothing wrong with wanting or owning premium tools if you can afford it, but it won't make you a great cabinet maker, just like owning a neumann U87ai microphone won't make you a world class singer or owning a high end luthier made guitar won't make you jimmy page or steve vai.


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## tibi (19 Jun 2021)

thetyreman said:


> only in 2016 when I started woodworking the price of many old tools was far far lower than they are now, I would not bother with an old router plane, the veritas or lie neilsen will be superior, it all depends on what work you plan on doing, not too long ago it made sense to buy cheap tools, the prices have gone mental since then for several reasons, the paul sellers effect, brexit and covid have pushed prices up and up.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with wanting or owning premium tools if you can afford it, but it won't make you a great cabinet maker, just like owning a neumann U87ai microphone won't make you a world class singer.


That is right. Paul Sellers used to buy no.4 hand planes for 10-15 pounds a few years ago, and now it would cost me almost 100 Euros (with custom fees and shipping) to get a No. 4 Stanley. Prices have gone up insanely. So many times it is worth buying a premium tool than a vintage one. But there are still types of tools, like chisels or saws, where the gap between a vintage, usable, but low cost new and new premium is still too big.


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## thetyreman (19 Jun 2021)

it's still possible to pay reasonable prices for some handplanes on ebay, I prefer a no4 1/2 anyway to a no4 and use my 5 1/2 more than any other plane. 

I don't agree with sellers at all that you can do anything with just a no4, take his advise with a pinch of salt, this is where he can be too preachy and opinionated, you can't joint very long boards with it you will be pulling your hair out, so I have a no7 for that, it really isn't that much heavier than a no 5 1/2 but the mass of it makes it much easier to use, people who train at the barnsley workshop use a no7 for virtually everything and I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing there!


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## TRITON (19 Jun 2021)

> Talking myself out of buying premium tools



 Quick !! Get this man a doctor

I understand fully where you'rer coming from, especially referencing older makers of the past making do with low quality tools and producing masterpieces.
It can go that way, collecting the latest tool, thinking this will improve your abilities, and that is a false economy in some ways. But basic tools like anything have flaws, in quality and in ability.

I have worked with people who produce good quality work, on low quality tools, and whereas I have Lie Nielsen chisels, one maker used the shop ones on the shelf which came from lidl and still did the work to passing quality.
That said, A shop I worked in the owner believed that he could be 5 cheap routers, for the price of a professional router, and drills and sanders. But those powertools had huge flaws in their quality to produce even simple tasks, and didnt last the pace of a professional workshop.
The powertools in the shop, that had been there for years and were always fit for purpose were the professional models and we had a couple of big boxes full of broken cheap powertools.

A friends father, who is a time served cabinetmaker and of 60 years service, suggested to me when I asked him what I should buy, suggested a good quality chisel and sharpening stone, and a good quality saw. When proficient with that, then look to buy more sizes or other tools.


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## tibi (19 Jun 2021)

thetyreman said:


> it's still possible to pay reasonable prices for some handplanes on ebay, I prefer a no4 1/2 anyway to a no4 and use my 5 1/2 more than any other plane.
> 
> I don't agree with sellers at all that you can do anything with just a no4, take his advise with a pinch of salt, this is where he can be too preachy and opinionated, you can't joint very long boards with it you will be pulling your hair out, so I have a no7 for that, it really isn't that much heavier than a no 5 1/2 but the mass of it makes it much easier to use, people who train at the barnsley workshop use a no7 for virtually everything and I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing there!


no.7 is a great example, where the price of used Stanley or Record + import fees + shipping is almost equal to Veritas bevel-up jointer plane. I also think that you need a longer plane for jointing and no.5 or 5 1/2 has its own place as well.


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## Adam W. (19 Jun 2021)

Personally, I keep Sellers on the periphery as I don't like his preachy style and prefer to research and experiment as much as possible by myself. 

I certainly wouldn't let anyone like him influence my choice of tools though, as that is my choice alone what I spend my money on, which is why I don't own a No.4 but use a piano makers plane instead.


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## D_W (19 Jun 2021)

I make tools (wood and metal/wood, infills, chisels, etc). I've had a full complement of LN planes in the past, all the way from block plane to no 9 to 7 and 8 bench planes at the same time along with a gaggle of in between.

I have none of them. I use my infills sparingly because they get in the way of getting much work done. The same with the premium planes - monstrously flat, finely finished soles with a lot of weight and slow adjusters - enormously exhausting to use compared to a basic stanley plane.

This is one of about 10 infill smoothers that I had at the time I took this picture (I have four right now -the one in the picture is a partial kit that I put together filling in the rest of the parts and then fitting dovetails and assembling/finishing and making the wooden parts), and my favorite plane for actual smoothing is a type 20 stanley four. I sold my last LN plane earlier this year (a #4 bronze smoother) because it was exhausting to use (due to friction and an extra unnecessary pound vs. the stanley). 

If you buy a bunch of premium planes, you'll use them here and there, but when you want to do more with planes, you'll gravitate to what takes the least effort and generally, even fitting type work is best done in fewer strokes with more experience. You'll get where you're going much faster and feel more connected vs. just moving a plane through tiny shavings and not getting anything done.

The same goes for chisels. I couldn't find a single past project where premium chisels of any type meant increased productivity over vintage english chisels. I couldn't actually find a situation where I'd prefer any "premium" chisels at this point over cleaned up older English (or american tools made in English patterns).

you'll find that most people who have 15 premium planes have them set up to work as a smoother - all of them. It seems great at first, but if you start doing more with your planes, you'll grow to want one or two planes set as a smoother and all of the heavy boutique cast tools will go to the side as soon as you get your hands on your first good double iron wooden plane.


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## Blackswanwood (19 Jun 2021)

I don’t think that there is a right or wrong answer Tibi. I have a mixture of old and new tools - both do the job. I love using my Lie Nielsen block plane just as much as the Record No6 that I bought on eBay and restored. If the economics make a new or old tool better value go for it. If you like the look and feel of an old or new tool go for it. The main thing in my view is enjoy woodworking.


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## Spectric (19 Jun 2021)

The thing you need to bear in mind is that price does not always reflect quality and you cannot overcome a skill shortage with tools no matter how much you spend, it is a compromise. An area you will really only get what you pay for is cutting tools like chisels and router cutters, here cheap does not pay.


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## tibi (19 Jun 2021)

TRITON said:


> Quick !! Get this man a doctor
> 
> I understand fully where you'rer coming from, especially referencing older makers of the past making do with low quality tools and producing masterpieces.
> It can go that way, collecting the latest tool, thinking this will improve your abilities, and that is a false economy in some ways. But basic tools like anything have flaws, in quality and in ability.
> ...



For power tools, this is much more evident. I personally have a cordless drill from Lidl, that was recommended to me by a friend that it is a high quality tool and it is a real bargain. The chuck on it is always loosening and it drove me crazy when I was assembling a metal roof on my workshop and the bits were falling down from the roof and I needed to go down and pick them up every time. You can bet that my next cordless drill will be DeWalt. 

But there must be a point where an increase in price does not equal an increase in quality. And you get diminishing returns in quality for every unit of price paid after a certain point. I do not know if this point is called Quangsheng or Jumma or Luban in woodworking world.


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## Spectric (19 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> But there must be a point where an increase in price does not equal an increase in quality.


The term quality can be very vague, differs depending on what you are talking about and what discipline. A basic starting point is that it delivers the intended function at a performance stated for a competative price and which reflects the product life cycle for a given level of usage. So you may get a tool for say £100 and it will perform as good as another tool for £200 but if used on a regular basis for trade then it will not maintain that level of performance as long and will have a shorter product life cycle. On the other hand if only used occasionaly for light duty then it will meet your needs and last as long as you probably need it.

The bigger issue is that you can spend extra just for a badge or name, some earn the reputation whilst others it is just a brand with a groupie following , much like Apple. So I am not brand loyal because no one brand makes the best of every tool, I buy the best brand for the required function and of course a lot of machines come out the same factory just with a different color and badge, with some minor differences. As for older tools then maybe there is an antique price now, and like all collectables they will demand what someone is willing to pay.


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## Hallelujahal (19 Jun 2021)

aren't most power tools made in the same factory these days?


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## Spectric (19 Jun 2021)

Maybe not all in the same factory but certainly the East and China in particular, one day they will price themselves out of the market like we did and then some other cheaper economy will take over. One of our issues is that we have a very strong HSE which takes away some of competitiveness, they can do and use things we just would not.


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## TRITON (19 Jun 2021)

Hallelujahal said:


> aren't most power tools made in the same factory these days?


Possibly, though there would be different budgets, choice of materials ie plastic or glass reinforced plastic. Motor differences in initial costs. a £10 motor, versus a £3 motor(manufacturer costs)


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## Vann (20 Jun 2021)

I like the bling of new premium tools but I'm too tight to buy many. You don't need new premium tools to do good work, but a well made tool helps - especially in these days where hands-on tuition is hard get and we have to try to figure things out from the internet.

I've splashed out and bought a few premium planes and have also bought a number of Record planes from the era where quality was still important to Record (i.e. pre~1960).

I've posted this picture before, these are my "go to" planes.







Left - A rough old Record 05 jack plane - with a brase repair to the side (well done) and minor pitting to the sole. It dates to the late 1950s. It does everything I need of a jack plane;
Middle - A very nice Record 04ss that is my general smoother - with one side wing broken off. It's a "Warfinish" plane (WW2). A quality plane.
Right - A Clifton No.3 that I keep with a sharp iron for fine work - one of my "premium" planes. Bought in 2010.

You don't need a new premium plane to have a quality plane.

Two things that mystify me:
- Why do some people pay more for a used (and often beaten up) Stanley "Bedrock" than the cost of a new Clifton/Lie-Neilsen with all the same features and a guarantee;
- Why do some people buy a premium jack plane (No.5 or No.5.5). A jack plane is for rough work and almost any beaten up jack plane will do the job well enough. Save your pennies for a nice smoother I say.

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.


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## D_W (20 Jun 2021)

The bedrock question is a valid one, though I prefer a little used bedrock to a lie Nielsen plane, most would not. What makes the question valid? Lord Stanley sold the bedrock pattern plane for 10% or so more than the bailey pattern and few thought it was worth the extra cost. 

Which is probably why it has more collector's appeal in good shape.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> The chuck on it is always loosening and it drove me crazy when I was assembling a metal roof on my workshop and the bits were falling down from the roof and I needed to go down and pick them up every time. You can bet that my next cordless drill will be DeWalt.



I suggest you don't buy a DeWalt, then - their chucks are exactly the same.


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## Woody2Shoes (20 Jun 2021)

I think you're thinking very sensibly. As you suggest in your post when you mention the router plane, I think the question of old vs. new and "cheap" vs. "expensive" depends on what kind of tool it is and how (much) you plan to use it, as well as the market place. A "good" tool is one that is fit for your particular purpose at the time. A "good" tool is one that doesn't get in the way of shaping/processing wood the way you want it (which is actually where the pleasure comes from, I believe).

I use cheap and disposable hand saws and cheap(ish) Ryobi cordless tools most of the time - for rough/site/general work. I enjoy using the old Stanley No 4 and the Marples chisels I inherited from family members. I do have one or two Soba tools (but only one or two). I have a sprinkling of Luban/Quangsheng/WR tools (which are a good place on the price/quality curve for new tools, for me). I have also fallen for one or two LN tools (exclusively the bronze ones!).


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## DrDarren (20 Jun 2021)

Chris Schwarz in Anarchists Toolchest spends several hundred pages on this. I‘ve only been woodworking since 2019 and have settled on Thomas Flinn panel, hand and rip saws after starting with Japanese saws from Workshop Heaven. I will never buy another saw and enjoy the process of sharpening / setting. Starrett for combi squares that I use unceasingly. Quangosheng 8 & 4 and old Record for jack. New veritas plough and router planes. Old Stanley 78. Narex chisels. I’m now making furniture I’m pleased with - I sleep on a bed I made, write on a desk I made, eat from a table I made. The furniture will last decades easily.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Jun 2021)

I don't possess a boutique hand tool or even a hand tool under forty eight years old (a 5 1/2 Record bought new), so maybe I shouldn't comment.


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## julianf (20 Jun 2021)

I am not a professional woodworker, however, tools for another purpose put food on my child's plate, so they are important to me.

When starting, I see no point in buying the best of everything. Some tools you will use so infrequently that there's just no point. It's rare that a cheaper tool won't produce the same result so long as more time is spent on the task.

I've been working for 20 years, and have gotten to the point where I'd probably just buy a premium tool now, as I'm no longer needing to acquire that many, but I still have some cheap tools, as some have just never been used enough to break, and some have proved fine anyway, so there's been no point in replacing them.

It would seem like madness to me buying premium across the board right at the start, as you don't even ultimately know the direction you will go in. Buy premium for the ones you use all the time but for the one-job tools, just buy mid to even lower mid range and then theres not even much lost if you ever do find you need to "premium" them in the future.

Each to their own, of course, but that's what I would suggest, and also what I've seen from other people who's tools actually pay their way.

Hobbiest collectors will obviously have a different value structure. Equally as valid for their own pursuit.


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## The Chiller (20 Jun 2021)

This has been very helpful to me also. Thank you all and the OP


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## Adam W. (20 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Snip
> 
> Our ancestors did not have those 100 EUR / piece chisels and special 600 Eur shooting planes and they made furniture that was in many ways superior to the one that we are building now. They just used the tools that were available to them at that time. They were not obsessed with them.
> 
> /Snip




Coming from a family of London tradesmen and having done a little bit of research into tools from the 18th and 19th centuries, I beg to differ. London joiners, cabinetmakers and carriage makers tools and the chests which housed them were exceptionally refined and made from the very best materials.

These tools were not only objects used for work, but also as objects to signify of status.


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## Jacob (20 Jun 2021)

There's a lot of retro fashion which isn't altogether about making better tools, it's about fashion and shopping (with hints of Steam Punk).
In fact two things in particular make them worse: Norris adjusters and thick blades.
These were superseded by the Stanley/Bailey design over 100 years ago.

I don't think I've got any "premium" tools any longer. I've tried few and sold them on. Just sold my expensive Eze-Lap diamond plates - probably the last extravagance! My two best saws were £14 the pair on ebay.


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## Nigel Taylor (20 Jun 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I like nice tools and I like using them to make nice stuff.
> 
> Mine are predominantly bought second hand, as I don't like new tool prices.



I think there is a quality that you get with secondhand that you don't get with new tools. Also, I think we all have a responsibility to re-use, repair and keep tools lasting longer.

I find that when I buy cheaper new tools I either end up regretting it or spend ages upgrading every single part of them - that's for machine tools more than hand tools


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## Keith 66 (20 Jun 2021)

"Premium" hand tools? I never bought any, I have an eclectic range of chisels & planes sourced over a lifetime of boatbuilding & woodworking, chisels by more than a dozen long gone makers, planes by stanley, record & others.
Many are as good or better than any so called premium tools of today.
As for prices, No4 planes going for 100 euros? In that case i need to have a search in my mates scrap yard, we will be rich!


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## Jameshow (20 Jun 2021)

I found a few things with tools. 

The more tools I have the less wood working I've done!! 

The tools far outstrip the skills I have even faithfull or silverline planes! 

I deem it sensible to get quality tools for those tools that are used most regularly. Cordless drill, jigsaw, circular saw, squares, chisels, planes, etc. 

Other occasional tools - SDS drill, angle grinder, power planer etc it doesn't matter what quality they are. 

Obviously I'm not trade or Bob the kitchen maker whose needs are somewhat different!!! 

Cheers James


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## sometimewoodworker (20 Jun 2021)

Hallelujahal said:


> 'Buy cheap buy twice' was what my old man always said.


That’s the policy I follow. I don’t do much hand tool stuff however I’ve still using power tools I bought 50 years ago. In that time one circular saw was lent out and came back with a lot of bits missing, a belt sander has a cracked casting & a cheap power planner may still work but it’s a poor tool so doesn’t get used.
Every other tool works and is used.


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## Just4Fun (20 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Our ancestors did not have those 100 EUR / piece chisels and special 600 Eur shooting planes and they made furniture that was in many ways superior to the one that we are building now.


That may or may not be true, but I don't think it is relevant. _My_ choice of tools is constrained by _my_ budget and _my_ needs & _my_ desires, not by what my great grandfather had. Just like I drive a car without feeling any pressure to use a horse and cart like my ancestors must have used.


Jameshow said:


> I deem it sensible to get quality tools for those tools that are used most regularly .... Other occasional tools .... it doesn't matter what quality they are.


That is exactly my approach, even if my selection of tools where quality matters is different. Almost all of my tools are old; some are good tools and some are basic but get the job done eventually. I don't have any modern "premium" tools so I don't know what I am missing in that respect.


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## Devmeister (20 Jun 2021)

Oh my. Here we go again. Paul Sellers is half right. Yes, he does not buy the new premium stuff, but the used stuff he has is top shelf. Some of the finest work including the work done by chippendales were done in england on tools not made by lie nielsen. I am envious of you Brits for having access to some great used stuff. Vintage marples box wood chisels, Norris planes and wadkin machines from the 40s to name a few. Look up bill Carter on youtube and follow along with him as he builds an infill plane in his shed. Note his tools and his work. I have sold off a bunch of my gadget modern tools. I just exported a 1944 wadkin lathe to the states. Yes, there is work in restoration. But I have never regretted my decision to sell the modern premium tools and I have never been happier.


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## Ollie78 (20 Jun 2021)

Balance is hard to find in this debate. If course given an endless bucket of cash we would all go crazy for the shiniest and best tools.

I have some better stuff now, but when starting out I could not afford Festool and Veritas etc. 

I have learned over time that cheap stuff is a false economy, but also that a £50 vintage Stanley number 5 is a very effective tool and at least 95% as good as a Veritas.

I think for a tool you use every day it is worth getting good stuff, also buy good measuring and marking tools as these are the start of everything you make.

If you look at the cost over time then the more expensive stuff becomes less of a sticker shock, I have had my CT26 for ages and its still going strong whereas before I was buying a new cheap vacuum every 2 years so in the end the Festool is cheaper.

There is room for trying stuff out and then re selling it if you don't get on with it as well.

Ollie


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## tibi (20 Jun 2021)

Thank you very much for all your opinions, they are very diverse. I will buy tools as my skills evolve and what my projects will require. I also want to build some wooden planes myself.


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## Dangermouse 2nd (20 Jun 2021)

I have a mix of restored Records, ( better than Stanley) , a couple of Rider planes, ( not too good, but passable) , several Queshange from workshop Heaven, ( premium planes at resonable prices ), and three Lie Neilsen planes, (which cost the earth, but are really nice) So I'd say have a bit of a mix and match, buy whats needed, not whats new and high end just for the sake getting a bit of bling. Buy what the work / wood needs.


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## stuart little (20 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> For power tools, this is much more evident. I personally have a cordless drill from Lidl, that was recommended to me by a friend that it is a high quality tool and it is a real bargain. The chuck on it is always loosening and it drove me crazy when I was assembling a metal roof on my workshop and the bits were falling down from the roof and I needed to go down and pick them up every time. You can bet that my next cordless drill will be DeWalt.
> 
> But there must be a point where an increase in price does not equal an increase in quality. And you get diminishing returns in quality for every unit of price paid after a certain point. I do not know if this point is called Quangsheng or Jumma or Luban in woodworking world.


I have two DeWalt brushless drills, the chucks loosen on both, which, is caused by the motor brake. I do suffer from 'Arthur Ritus' & CTS so I can't tighten the chuck as tight as it needs to be which does add to the loosening.


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## tibi (20 Jun 2021)

stuart little said:


> I have two DeWalt brushless drills, the chucks loosen on both, which, is caused by the motor brake. I do suffer from 'Arthur Ritus' & CTS so I can't tighten the chuck as tight as it needs to be which does add to the loosening.


Can you advise me of a brand where this does not happen?


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## Daniel2 (20 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Can you advise me of a brand where this does not happen?



Festool


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## D_W (20 Jun 2021)

Devmeister said:


> Oh my. Here we go again. Paul Sellers is half right. Yes, he does not buy the new premium stuff, but the used stuff he has is top shelf. Some of the finest work including the work done by chippendales were done in england on tools not made by lie nielsen. I am envious of you Brits for having access to some great used stuff. Vintage marples box wood chisels, Norris planes and wadkin machines from the 40s to name a few. Look up bill Carter on youtube and follow along with him as he builds an infill plane in his shed. Note his tools and his work. I have sold off a bunch of my gadget modern tools. I just exported a 1944 wadkin lathe to the states. Yes, there is work in restoration. But I have never regretted my decision to sell the modern premium tools and I have never been happier.



When you get into something like toolmaking, as bill does, there really isn't an option to buy "premium tools" to be a maker. There are a few things like lie nielsen floats, but they're intended for beech planes and won't do much on the bed of an infill.

There's an opportunity to use a milling machine, lathe, knurling tools, etc, but most of the fitting work is done by hand. Folks who come into infill planes wanting to do everything with machine tools generally end up making fairly ugly planes (to do so with refinement so as not to have a bunch of blocky stuff with bad proportions takes a whole lot of time/money involvement - ala karl holtey).

The biggest tax to me on the premium tools, other than that they don't really shine when you get into multi hour periods prepping wood, sawing, etc, is that they are all bright new surfaces. If you use old tools and sharpen with oilstones, "tool care" will be nearly zero. When I had a gaggle of premium planes, I didn't leave them in the shop long and pulled them all from time to time to check for rust blooms and then oiled them. That's not a particularly enjoyable use of time. Also, while most of the new tools are malleable cast, if you drop them, you can break handles and bend rods, etc, and without replacing all of those bits, the tools won't be right again. How much does a handle and rods cost? I have no idea, but it's probably close to the cost of a stanley plane.


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## tibi (20 Jun 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Festool


Do you have a brand where you actually do not need a loan?


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## TRITON (20 Jun 2021)

I hate my stanley No 9 block plane. It's never cut well, and thats on the flat. On actual endgrain,it's supposed design, it chatters like it invented the word chatter.

My fav is my No6 Record with solid tungsten blade and 2 piece stay set cap. Whispers through anything, curly to opposing grains, nothing tears out with it.


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## danst96 (20 Jun 2021)

Find the video from Matt Estlea where he worked on a Amazon £20 plane. The time it took him to get it sorted, he could have got a Lie Nielsen for the time=money equation.

I think it's less relevant with power tools


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## mikej460 (20 Jun 2021)

I'm fortunate to have a Lie Nielsen 140 skew plane which I bought in the states years ago and it is just superb, especially on end grain. The blade is a bit of a sod to sharpen mind you.


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## tibi (20 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Find the video from Matt Estlea where he worked on a Amazon £20 plane. The time it took him to get it sorted, he could have got a Lie Nielsen for the time=money equation.
> 
> I think it's less relevant with power tools



I have seen this video earlier this year, but it is a bit misleading. He tells that his hourly rate is 30 GBP per hour. There are countries in the world, where people cannot earn 30 pounds in 2 weeks or even a month. So if someone is from Nigeria or Bangladesh, he would rather spend hours tweaking a low-end hand plane than estimating his time worth 30 pounds per hour and buying a Lie Nielsen.


----------



## richarddownunder (20 Jun 2021)

I enjoy using nice tools so have a few (too many), new and old but all good quality IMHO (Clifton, decent older Record, Ashley Iles chisels, Thomas Flinn saws (and some old Groves and Disstons). But probably one of the most useful things I have is a decent (old) drill press. Gets used all the time. If you cant drill a hole straight and accurate, problems arise. 
Cheers
Richard


----------



## keithy1959 (20 Jun 2021)

I would spend money on premium sharpening and marking tools, and start cheaper with the rest. I would suggest getting the best sharpening system you can, and get lots of practice. If the blade is sharp, most other issues can be overcome. The difference between a cheap chisel and a good one is mainly it's ability to hold an edge. If you don't want to sharpen saws, cheap japanese or Hardpoint saws and treat them as disposable items . 
If you have big/small hands a handle may be more important than the quality of steel. I have some good chisels but fall back to some cheap eastern european ones because they feel much more an extension to my hands - happy to sharpen twice as often.
Also, think about the things you are likely to make over the next five years, and how much time you have, and whether you can use power tools in those leisure hours, then identify the tools you are most likely to need and how often you will use them. You'll use a set square on every job, but a rip saw maybe 1 in 10.


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## D_W (21 Jun 2021)

TRITON said:


> I hate my stanley No 9 block plane. It's never cut well, and thats on the flat. On actual endgrain,it's supposed design, it chatters like it invented the word chatter.
> 
> My fav is my No6 Record with solid tungsten blade and 2 piece stay set cap. Whispers through anything, curly to opposing grains, nothing tears out with it.



The sole of your block plane needs flattening. There's probably millions of block planes waiting to be unleashed into a fit of fine work just by flattening the sole. They're made for construction sites, but the basic bones are there- they just need a little help. 

I have an 18 that needed the same help and has butter soft blades to boot (I'm sure easy sharpening blades are appreciated on a job site). Finishing the tip of the blade with a buffer to bolster edge strength and flattening the sole made it capable of endless smooth planing of silica filled cocobolo.


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## Vann (21 Jun 2021)

mikej460 said:


> I'm fortunate to have a Lie Nielsen 140 skew plane...
> ...The blade is a bit of a sod to sharpen mind you.


It's the A2 steel LN insist in using for their irons. A2 might be better at edge holding on problem wood, but unnecessary for most woodworking. Harder to sharpen, and not as keen an edge as O1.

Cheers, Vann.


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## D_W (21 Jun 2021)

Vann said:


> It's the A2 steel LN insist in using for their irons. A2 might be better at edge holding on problem wood, but unnecessary for most woodworking. Harder to sharpen, and not as keen an edge as O1.
> 
> Cheers, Vann.



It's dimensionally stable in heat treat, which is likely the reason their heat treater prefers it (not much follow up machining due to warping)


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## Just4Fun (21 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> I have seen this video earlier this year, but it is a bit misleading. He tells that his hourly rate is 30 GBP per hour. There are countries in the world, where people cannot earn 30 pounds in 2 weeks or even a month. So if someone is from Nigeria or Bangladesh, he would rather spend hours tweaking a low-end hand plane than estimating his time worth 30 pounds per hour and buying a Lie Nielsen.


Very true, but this doesn't just apply in poor countries. Anyone on a fixed income could view things that way. It doesn't matter if your hourly rate is £300, if you don't have the option of doing an extra paid hour instead of fettling a tool, it is a false choice.
Besides that, if my "cost" of my time when doing some work compared to buying something were a good criteria I would never make anything again: I would be straight round to Ikea.


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## Keith Cocker (21 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> Maybe not all in the same factory but certainly the East and China in particular, one day they will price themselves out of the market like we did and then some other cheaper economy will take over. One of our issues is that we have a very strong HSE which takes away some of competitiveness, they can do and use things we just would not.



Bat leather makes great strops apparently


----------



## jcassidy (21 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Do you have a brand where you actually do not need a loan?



My (now sold) Stanley FatMax impact driver and the drill both had good, secure chucks.


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## danst96 (21 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> I have seen this video earlier this year, but it is a bit misleading. He tells that his hourly rate is 30 GBP per hour. There are countries in the world, where people cannot earn 30 pounds in 2 weeks or even a month. So if someone is from Nigeria or Bangladesh, he would rather spend hours tweaking a low-end hand plane than estimating his time worth 30 pounds per hour and buying a Lie Nielsen.


This is true, but i guess it comes back to what time you want to spend working on your tools to get them to perform adequately vs actually making stuff. You raise a valid question in the OP but its not as straightforward as you make it sound. For example, you say that 100 years ago makers made a superior product with cheap tools but at the same time, so many of us claim old tools, in particular old machinery is better than the stuff made today. 

I think your question is deeply personal to each and everyones personal situation. Yes you can use cheap tools to get the job done, maybe as good as an expensive tool. It comes back to what you want, for some people having and building a collection of expensive Veritas or LN tools gives them a great feeling in life. Personally for me, I would love to have LN and Veritas tools but I know i can get the job done with vintage Record planes and I would rather invest the difference in machinery I currently dont have and need or in premium materials such as Walnut because I love what i can do with it.

Furthermore, its a complex question because speaking from experience there is such thing as buy cheap buy twice, its not just an old guy thing to say. I also built a new workshop at the turn of this year, at the time I was unsure how much I was willing to invest into woodworking because I liked the idea but I had no idea i would enjoy it as much as I did. Because of this, i bought cheap tools so i wasn't throwing too much money into this new hobby. For example, i bought a cheap Clarke table saw for £180. I had it for 2 weeks before i tried to upgrade it by getting a new fence system and making a table which was another £140. After around 2 weeks of trying to make it good enough, i knew it never would be and i bit the bullet and got a big cabinet saw. I essentially wasted over £300 on that set up which was almost half of what I paid for my new second hand cabinet saw. Obviously this was my mistake to make and i was as green as the grass when it came to what tools i needed and what would get the job done and what wouldn't.

So to summarise, you do the right thing in one sense to talk yourself out of buying expensive tools, especially if you dont get that buzz from owning a big expensive collection. But at the same time, I think its important to not fall into the trap of just thinking all cheap tools are made equal and will get the job done just as well. For all I know, you might be a very established woodworker and know potentially more than I do about this so maybe my advice is flawed for you but I would recommend getting old hand tools from hand tool restorers because they have done the hard work to set the tool up and it will perform very well and at a very good price. For machinery, from my limited research, it seems that machines built in Europe between the 70s and 90s is modern enough but also built better than most others. 

I think ive been bitten by the festool bug. Oh dear....


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Jun 2021)

Irrespective of the price level at which you choose to buy, I believe everyone should know how to fettle a plane because you should know how and why it works to get optimum performance from it.


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## jcassidy (21 Jun 2021)

Professionals buy professional quality gear because that's the means of earning bread. Everyone else can buy whatever they want... Expensive, cheap, Chinese, English, whatever takes your fancy. 

My 0.02c, don't buy anything you can't sharpen yourself and don't buy anything you wouldn't want to break! 

The Paul Sellers effect thankfully doesn't seem to have reached carboot sales here in Ireland yet. Ebay is a waste of time, everything is in the UK. 

I recently picked up a 60's Stanley No5 with a broken tote for €10. A new tote cost another tenner. Apart from that, it was in factory finish condition, must have been dropped soon after purchase and put up on a shelf.

I bought Eclipse coping saws for a euro or two. Rusty chisels I don't bother with unless I find a R Sorby or something worth the effort.

Another rich source of quality tools for peanuts is auctions, I have a lovely Record No.4 that was in a carpenters to box along with a Norton sharpening slip stone which is useful for the wooden moulding planes I got also from auction.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Jun 2021)

I suspect nowadays in many realms it's the middle market that suffers. I was brought up with the mantra if you can't afford to buy the best, buy the best you can afford - I don't think this is necessarily good advice now, however. I tend to buy at either end of the spectrum - although most of my tools are top class I've £5 tools that were bought to do one job that are still going several jobs later.


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## stuart little (21 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Can you advise me of a brand where this does not happen?


I did have a Hitachi (or whatever they be called nowadays) & can't remember the chuck loosening on it. I also have an AEG which I keep for heavy work which doesn't loosen. What's happened to AEG 'stuff', I wonder?


----------



## Jameshow (21 Jun 2021)

I have Stanley I have used for about 5 years. 
Good tools only let down by limited other tools available - Circular saw and jigsaw only. 

Cheers James


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## stuart little (21 Jun 2021)

Hallelujahal said:


> aren't most power tools made in the same factory these days?


I have Makita tools made in Japan, China, Europe, & believe it or not, UK! Dewalt made in Mexico, China, & Czech Rep.
Although what DOES 'Made in----' mean ? A UK garden tool manufacturer sent their forge to India where the 'business ends' are made, then sent to UK for the handles to be fitted & "Made in Britain" (or UK) stickers attached quite legally apparently. It does seem there is no legal distinguish between 'Made in' & 'Assembled in'. Then again, what do I know?


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## Doug B (21 Jun 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Festool






tibi said:


> Do you have a brand where you actually do not need a loan?


The first time the bit in your drill comes loose, drops out & damages something valuable the extra cost of the Festool drill becomes insignificant, mine was a hole saw in a makita drill I learnt the hard way the value of a quality chuck.


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## danst96 (21 Jun 2021)

stuart little said:


> I have Makita tools made in Japan, China, Europe, & believe it or not, UK! Dewalt made in Mexico, China, & Czech Rep.
> Although what DOES 'Made in----' mean ? A UK garden tool manufacturer sent their forge to India where the 'business ends' are made, then sent to UK for the handles to be fitted & "Made in Britain" (or UK) stickers attached quite legally apparently. It does seem there is no legal distinguish between 'Made in' & 'Assembled in'. Then again, what do I know?


I had a dewalt set of drills that are made in the UK! I did burn it out very quickly and my Czech made one is better. But its all down to model.


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## Corset (21 Jun 2021)

I too started with some pretty awful tools 25 years ago and have built up a fairly extensive collection of metal junk as wife calls it. I think having a bad tool for a while makes you appreciate good tools. Ie my first planes were some cheap ones from b and q and i could never undertand why they didnt work, then i learnt to sharpen and it was better then i bought a nicer plane and i realised that sharpening only takes you so far. I bought a cheap router which constantly lost depth (thanks wickes) and then saved up and bought a festool. Never bought another router or desired one. I worked out of a cellar for 5 years then got a house with a garage and went from a track saw to a table saw, again a massive change. I have accumilated hundreds of chisels in auctions over the years and have a set of plastic stanleys for wacking stuff and some jap chisels for finer work, some english paring chisels. However a sharp chisel is a sharp chisel.. I find having agood set reminds me that this is precise work. With plane i think its very personal, my most used planes are a number 8, a small block plane and a bu smoothing plane. However i used different combinations before this. I have a large selection of bedrocks that i have collected, i like them but they arent in real terms much or any better than a stanley or record bailey pattern plane. i collect a bit so i guess i am more into planes than some. One think i do notice if that DIY stuff in the house i find the bigger it is the more i use power tools and if i am using play or mdf planes arent my first choice. If i am making something from solid wood or its ornate i really enjoy slowing down and using hand tools. 
I would also say when it goes wrong with a hand tool it rarely as bad as when it goies wrong with a power tool. But its easier early on to be accurate with a jig and a power tool than hand.or it was for me. 
Prices i find are lower for hand tools in the summer on ebay as people arent in their sheds etc as much so this tends to be a good time to buy. Rust should not be a deterent, i find a good tool is often a bit rusty as its been left alone. However some of the over polished things on ebay look nice but have been affected by overzealous wire brushes, sanding etc rending their function to a lower level. In my garage if they arent oiled they can rusty overnight....
Personally for me the tools and the learning of what works is all part of the fun. If it doesnt work out sell it on, buy another one. Its amzing how over a 10 year period i have traded up from 10 planes to over 200. Just dont tell my wife.


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## Selwyn (21 Jun 2021)

All you really need hand tool wise is a no 4 and a no 5 plane. Some second hand chisels off ebay (1/4, 1/2, 3/4), a thor mallet is good but a hammer is usable and then maybe a couple of decent saws. 

You don't need to go ott. You can do almost anything with that lot


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## D_W (21 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Find the video from Matt Estlea where he worked on a Amazon £20 plane. The time it took him to get it sorted, he could have got a Lie Nielsen for the time=money equation.
> 
> I think it's less relevant with power tools



I set up a new Mexico made Stanley a couple of months ago and believe it didn't take more than an hour. It needed flattening and iron and cap iron prepared and was pleasantly good when done. Those two items are key to say the least when using a smoother. The really cheap planes sometimes have zinc or aluminum parts where they should be steel, brass or cast, and no amount of prep will fix that issue, and some are cut so that the iron can't be set to cut if the cap is set close to the edge.

(edit - looked it up - 45 minutes to prepare an untouched mex stanley. It did still have plastic handles when done, but not a bad feel, and it did have a relatively large mouth, but that's not something that would create any problems except when doing very short cuts like beveling).


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## Sean33 (21 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am just building my workshop and it will be finished in a month or two. After I finish the workshop and build myself a proper workbench, I have decided to save 50 Euros every month and create a budget for my woodworking tools.
> 
> ...


In my opinion there are two answers to this, if you are making furniture for a living then i think the premium brands over time pay for themselves, your chisels, planes etc will hold an edge and be pretty true from the box and stay true for much longer between sharpening saving you time and money, also you have the ability to be able to sell them on if you no longer need them with more often than not a minimal loss. The sell on factor also applies to premium machinery and power tools. From personal experience i have bought too many poor quality power tools that simply have not lasted.
I you are a hobbyist then a lot of the joy is in getting that edge so it is a pleasure rather than a chore !
If i were starting again i would buy that premium set of chisels, square, block plain no 4/5 and utilise them to there full effect. Buy an extra blade or two for different uses. 
Again from personal experience add tools only where and when you need them, its a very easy but admittedly joyful trap to fall into buying nice shiny new things !!
hope this helps

Sean.


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## Avery (22 Jun 2021)

I work so I can buy better tools so I canwork faster and make more money to buy more tools. I work for the tool companies basically. But I get to kakw cool stuff with great tools that work beautifully and are a joy to use. Maybe one day when I've bought all the tools in the world I'll be able to buy something to wear.


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## danst96 (22 Jun 2021)

Maybe another approach could be, buy things as you need them? Its kind of what I have done, i didnt buy a full complement of hand tools from the get go, i have just slowly added to my arsenal as and when i have needed items.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Jun 2021)

Yes, but I have in the past bought tools at a bargain price that I didn't use until many years after.


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## danst96 (22 Jun 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Yes, but I have in the past bought tools at a bargain price that I didn't use until many years after.


True true, never pass a bargain by. But as a general rule, no point splashing out on a £700 Domino if you dont need it right now but if a great one comes up somewhere for a giveaway, why not go for it?


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## Giles55 (22 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am just building my workshop and it will be finished in a month or two. After I finish the workshop and build myself a proper workbench, I have decided to save 50 Euros every month and create a budget for my woodworking tools.
> 
> ...



I have mused upon similar concerns as you. I am sure every competent woodworker has similar thoughts. The standard I expect all my tools to reach is one of function. It’s my main consideration always. I really don’t care about manufacturers names, vintage, new, Poundland, etc. I buy whichever tool will allow me to achieve accurate results in a pleasurable fashion. I also have learned not to buy tools because I might need it at some unspecified future date. I have a good set of core tools, I add to them when I need a tool to effectively complete the project I am working on, and I only do that if I consider it is essential. As you say you are putting together a new shop so to speak, you have to ask yourself what you will be making and how you like to work? Then you might look at the most important tools which will achieve your goals and spend your money on those foundational tools. I have a mix of tools, some expensive some not. The thing they all have in common is that they function correctly and allow me to work accurately and happily. If it doesn’t function I don’t care what the label says, it’s not taking up space in my shop.


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## tibi (22 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> This is true, but i guess it comes back to what time you want to spend working on your tools to get them to perform adequately vs actually making stuff. You raise a valid question in the OP but its not as straightforward as you make it sound. For example, you say that 100 years ago makers made a superior product with cheap tools but at the same time, so many of us claim old tools, in particular old machinery is better than the stuff made today.
> 
> I think your question is deeply personal to each and everyones personal situation. Yes you can use cheap tools to get the job done, maybe as good as an expensive tool. It comes back to what you want, for some people having and building a collection of expensive Veritas or LN tools gives them a great feeling in life. Personally for me, I would love to have LN and Veritas tools but I know i can get the job done with vintage Record planes and I would rather invest the difference in machinery I currently dont have and need or in premium materials such as Walnut because I love what i can do with it.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your answer. It was not said in my original question, but I am more in search of vintage or modern quality tools that can perform very well (with some tool fetling if necessary). I never want to buy as cheap as possible just to get a tool. I know some people who do and I have been burnt in the past by their recommendation of a "good" tool. If I do not have enough money for a tool,I still can postpone the purchase and wait until I do have that amount of money allocated for the tool. The pity is that no toolmaker (especially the big box store one) do not write on its product, that it is actually a rubbish).


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## tibi (22 Jun 2021)

jcassidy said:


> Professionals buy professional quality gear because that's the means of earning bread. Everyone else can buy whatever they want... Expensive, cheap, Chinese, English, whatever takes your fancy.
> 
> My 0.02c, don't buy anything you can't sharpen yourself and don't buy anything you wouldn't want to break!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer. I would be glad to know some good online irish sites where I can purchase woodworking handtools. I will save on the import fees from the Uk.


----------



## tibi (22 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> The first time the bit in your drill comes loose, drops out & damages something valuable the extra cost of the Festool drill becomes insignificant, mine was a hole saw in a makita drill I learnt the hard way the value of a quality chuck.


I was never invited to do some repairs at the Louvre Museum, so my only concern is that I will loose the bit or I need to exercise some effort to get it back to the chuck.


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## shed9 (22 Jun 2021)

The ultimate answer will always come down to buying the best tools that are fit for purpose relevant to you and your situation. 

I don't agree with the idea that more expensive tools will not fill a skill deficit as better tools will enable skills to improve. I appreciate that more expensive does not always necessarily mean better but in the context of starting out in an industry and the associated learning curve of that, this generally is true. There is nothing worse than soldiering on with cheap tools when learning and it often leads to people abandoning the process altogether. If you buy a mediocre brand tool and it breaks you kind of expect that to happen whereas you would be apoplectic if that happened with say a Clifton plane for example. This level of expectation in quality is pervasive and bleeds into all aspects of ownership, including use. 
Within a non-commercial environment, buy the best you can afford or wait until you can. You will be far better positioned to learn the necessary skills with a limited number of high quality tools than you will an arsenal of cheap tools. It doesn't have to be LN or LV but if that happens to be the best you can afford then what have you got to lose? You are unlikely to regret it and even if you do you can pretty much get your cash back.

It always amazes me how quickly large swathes of woodworking forums will happily avert people away from the Lie Nielsen's of this world whilst in the same breath complaining that people won't pay the price for their own artisan products. 

Buy the best you can, every single time. 

I'll get me coat.


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## Jameshow (22 Jun 2021)

I think Anant planes are fab... 

I'll get the popcorn

Probably make the football more exciting later....! 

Cheers James


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## sometimewoodworker (22 Jun 2021)

While I mostly agree with @shed9 waiting until you can afford a good tool for the job rather than just a tool that may/probably will, do the job, will in the long term be less expensive in money, time and give more satisfaction.
The skilled worker can often do a reasonably OK job even with carp tools, not so the less skilled where the better tool allows a reasonably OK job


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## Ttrees (22 Jun 2021)

I bought this 150mm Soba square for a tenner from axi.
One of the best value hand tools (new) that I have came across.I





I bought this nice stainless 40" ruler for about a tenner aswell.
I've since went to homebase and got another shorter one for about a fiver
the smaller silverline isn't as nice a finish as the fisco ones I had got before, and has only markings on one side, might not have bought it if I'd known that, but twas only a fiver.




I've seen calipers not too expensive at around a tenner, I think this one was twice that, a handy tool to have for not much money.

Funny how you can buy some things and the tolerances are very good, and then maybe for the same money you get something just pathetic like some forstner bits in Lidl that would struggle to cut ice cream.


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## tibi (22 Jun 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I bought this 150mm Soba square for a tenner from axi.
> One of the best value hand tools (new) that I have came across.I
> View attachment 112623
> 
> ...




With cheap tools, it is a big hit or miss. You might find a real bargain, but mostly it is that you get for what you have paid for. And you are not even allowed to have righteous wrath, because .... you get what you paid for.


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## tibi (22 Jun 2021)

a very good example is a Starrett combination square. If you buy a Starrett, then you can be almost sure, it is a great product and will last you a lifetime. If you buy something cheaper, e.g. Stanley Rabone for half the price of Starrett, then you might hit or miss - and for me if I need to buy that stuff from Germany or England and I live in Slovakia, it is a trouble to deal with returns. So sometimes I want the best tool, just to make sure, it will perform its standard function to a reasonably good standard.


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## Ttrees (22 Jun 2021)

Reviews are good if buying unseen, some common engineers precision tools generally seem to be made to a better standard than other things I bought for similar money but for woodworking.
Marking out tools are about the only thing that I'd buy new, and for near everything else woodworking related has been on the bay or local.
However I'd not be overly keen to buy _used _engineers tools on the bay again,
as they may have had a long hard life in industry, and new equivalents being cheaper.

Some of those things might be common enough for a big box store, so just aiming to give some insight on what you can buy for your money,
What might one spend for some woodworkers aluminum ruler with a brand name on it?

A tenner can often go a long way if you shop around.
Locally homebase has a record/irwin no.5 1/2 plane on discount for 35 quid, cheaper than the no.4 beside it, with good thick casting, looked not bad TBH, the turn screw in the lever cap would be the worst part about it, wooden handles could be made fairly easily,
would have been tempted, nah, I'd just buy another Bailey.
It'd be good for a lender tool though, I'd have no attachment to it.
.....
maybe next week


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## dzj (22 Jun 2021)

Jascha Heifetz, the famous violinist did not start his career with the Guarneri del Gesu.
On the other hand, it wasn't an Asian-made violin shaped object either.
Perhaps it might be better to find a mentor who'll guide you through various tool related pitfalls.
I remember reading a story about a Japanese student who bought a very expensive chisel, only to have it
confiscated by his teacher. He wasn't ready to use it and it would be a shame to waste a wonderful tool on a novice.


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## tibi (22 Jun 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Reviews are good if buying unseen, some common engineers precision tools generally seem to be made to a better standard than other things I bought for similar money but for woodworking.
> Marking out tools are about the only thing that I'd buy new, and for near everything else woodworking related has been on the bay or local.
> However I'd not be overly keen to buy _used _engineers tools on the bay again,
> as they may have had a long hard life in industry, and new equivalents being cheaper.
> ...


I have almost no option to physically check specialized woodworking tools, so I must rely on reviews only. And if I see mixed reviews, I have an experience, that I will actually get the bad item instead of the good one, so I stay away from buying tools with mixed reviews. 

e.g. If I would like to test a hand plane in my location, this is the only kind I can physically check out. 






If I want to check some cheap imitation of a baily pattern, I need to travel some more. If I want to buy Veritas plane, I need to order from fine-tools, Germany or buy from some local reseller and pay the middle-man a rather big tip .
If I want to buy Lie-Nielsen, I must buy from Mars or Saturn, because they are sold out on Earth, unless I want some obscure model.


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## TRITON (22 Jun 2021)

Keith Cocker said:


> Bat leather makes great strops apparently


As good as kitten ?.


----------



## Doug B (22 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> I was never invited to do some repairs at the Louvre Museum, so my only concern is that I will loose the bit or I need to exercise some effort to get it back to the chuck.


We can’t all get that gig you know.


----------



## Ttrees (22 Jun 2021)

It's the same deal in the west, send it over there where it's too expensive to return it.
I'd sooner take the chance on a cheap well finished tool than some brand name, if it's identical, take those vernier calipers for instance, how much for a Starret or Mitutoyo...
the finish on my calipers looks pretty good to me, look at difference of the finish between both rulers.
That would be a hint if looking for a calipers personally.
You can get very nice quality cheaply if you shop around.


A good surface plate of some description might be the sensible option.
Beyond a small sheet of glass, I couldn't find anything suitable myself, so I scraped my own from some sort of dense composite material.
If I didn't have that stuff, I would pay for a rectangular plate at least as long as the longest plane you plan on having.
You could make some straight edges and go and shop local or shop online for some hand planes if you can flatten them at home.

I have yet to see a bailey style plane that had some flaw that couldn't be sorted out by a bit of lapping.
(discounting some lapped by a numpty which you might see on job lots)

If buying used, or whatever, then make sure it has enough meat to the sole so if it's out by a bit, will still be good.
I'll admit that I messed my first bailey up, an old welded thing that I lapped badly and made it wafer thin, I could have likely got that sorted with some instruction had I asked, rather than copy misleading videos.

Whoever stated that a flat plate means you can lap mindlessly,
'cuz I fell for it hook line and sinker
Seems all the gurus I trusted suggested near the same thing, with no regard to keeping a very close eye on the perimeter/contact point for reference.

Another two lemons were a pair of 60 1/2 planes.
The movable mouth means that these must be lapped in a correct fashion, as to not make the sole convex.
The ridges for the sliding plate must be coplanar, and for that to happen the sole needs to be very flat.
I messed this up by mindlessly rubbing the sole on the plate expecting it to be perfect, yes I used taut paper and freshly brushed grit off after every other stroke, but never got there.

Those planes also had the Aziumth error to deal with, so are likely the most challenging tool you might be likely to encounter.
I could sort them easily now, but ended up buying a LN 60 1/2 which I've used maybe three times, as its at me folks.
The bailey's get used for everything, and from what I've seen a cheap one can be made work as good as a LN if you don't drop it.
(if you don't mind a bit of elbow grease)

Saws on the other hand, is more apt for the title of the thread, 
Have you got any local places to get some?
They would likely travel better even if you had to ebay it.
Anything beyond a quick lick with a file, will likely be
more difficult to do than sorting anything with a plane out.

All the best
Tom


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## D_W (22 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> I have almost no option to physically check specialized woodworking tools, so I must rely on reviews only. And if I see mixed reviews, I have an experience, that I will actually get the bad item instead of the good one, so I stay away from buying tools with mixed reviews.
> 
> e.g. If I would like to test a hand plane in my location, this is the only kind I can physically check out.
> View attachment 112632
> ...



one of those with a double iron will plane anything that's worth working. It'd be a more productive plane day to day than a LN or LV plane, too, but it would take a little bit of time for a beginner to get a feel for it. Most of the "improvements" in premium planes are overblown in terms of capability, but what they offer is the ability for a beginner to get something that works with little attention. I've been down that road, but as time went on, the premium planes are less productive, not more. Working thicker shavings when you can and not thinner is a time gain. using a lighter plane that still handles the same work, same (not personally a fan of coffin smoothing planes as they're pretty rough on a user in harder woods -the continental type like you're showing is easier on elbows, etc, even though it weighs the same.

But a smoother like the one above without a cap iron is pretty limited.


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## tibi (23 Jun 2021)

Ttrees said:


> It's the same deal in the west, send it over there where it's too expensive to return it.
> I'd sooner take the chance on a cheap well finished tool than some brand name, if it's identical, take those vernier calipers for instance, how much for a Starret or Mitutoyo...
> the finish on my calipers looks pretty good to me, look at difference of the finish between both rulers.
> That would be a hint if looking for a calipers personally.
> ...



I personally do not mind tweaking a cheaper / vintage plane to get it to a good working condition. I have bought a few saws that I have sharpened,set,straightened, painted handles, and now they perform very well. Also I have bought Stanley no.4 and no.5 and restored them. 

I can buy only hardpoint saws in person. If I want something sharpenable, then I would need to buy online and probably abroad. I have bought all my saws to date from e-bay, except the gents saw.


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## carpenteire2009 (23 Jun 2021)

I started out on my journey of building up a decent tool set more than 22 years ago. I started with new tools from the local hardware shop, Stanley, CK, Record etc, all of which were fine as regards quality and they continue to be used. As time went on and with access to the internet and the woodworking magazines of the time I started to discover the world of vintage tools and new premium tool makers. And that was the rock I perished on! Soon I was purchasing Lie Nielsen, Veritas, Clifton etc. Beautiful tools, each and every one of them, but they are rarely used. Now I tend to use the same trusted vintage Stanley and Record planes that I picked up at car boot sales, learning how to clean them up and get them working properly. These are go-to planes for the kind of basic woodwork and DIY that I do at home now. I was lucky enough to inherit some nice old tools that were in my family, really good old English chisels etc. which helped to fill out my tool kit. I'll never sell any of the premium stuff I did buy, it is nice to have and very occasionally use, but truth be told I get most satisfaction from using the good solid tools that were bought for very little money and work so well, because I spent time to get them that way. There is nothing to beat the satisfaction of using a tool that was once used by my great grand father either! 

I did try my luck with some of the cheaper Anant, (new) Record and Stanley planes, trying to apply the same fettling techniques to see if I could get them to work well. I spent a lot of time on those tools, and to be fair they did work but they were still a poor imitation of the originals, so I gave them away. 

I think we are spoiled for choice today- if you have a good eye and time to spend you can track down some good tools second hand for reasonable money and with the internet you can find out just about anything about how to fix/ repair or use that tool. With careful research and some money you can buy some of the best tools in the world online and have them delivered to your door- the amateur is no longer limited by what the local tool shop has on display. If I was starting over again I don't think I'd change a thing- I learnt a lot about tools and their use by buying as I did. I rarely bought "cheap" (poor quality) tools and rarely regretted any purchase. It took 20 years to build up the sort of tool kit that allows me to take on any project I want now and those tools and their use brings me a lot of happiness. Enjoy the journey!


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## tibi (23 Jun 2021)

carpenteire2009 said:


> I started out on my journey of building up a decent tool set more than 22 years ago. I started with new tools from the local hardware shop, Stanley, CK, Record etc, all of which were fine as regards quality and they continue to be used. As time went on and with access to the internet and the woodworking magazines of the time I started to discover the world of vintage tools and new premium tool makers. And that was the rock I perished on! Soon I was purchasing Lie Nielsen, Veritas, Clifton etc. Beautiful tools, each and every one of them, but they are rarely used. Now I tend to use the same trusted vintage Stanley and Record planes that I picked up at car boot sales, learning how to clean them up and get them working properly. These are go-to planes for the kind of basic woodwork and DIY that I do at home now. I was lucky enough to inherit some nice old tools that were in my family, really good old English chisels etc. which helped to fill out my tool kit. I'll never sell any of the premium stuff I did buy, it is nice to have and very occasionally use, but truth be told I get most satisfaction from using the good solid tools that were bought for very little money and work so well, because I spent time to get them that way. There is nothing to beat the satisfaction of using a tool that was once used by my great grand father either!
> 
> I did try my luck with some of the cheaper Anant, (new) Record and Stanley planes, trying to apply the same fettling techniques to see if I could get them to work well. I spent a lot of time on those tools, and to be fair they did work but they were still a poor imitation of the originals, so I gave them away.
> 
> I think we are spoiled for choice today- if you have a good eye and time to spend you can track down some good tools second hand for reasonable money and with the internet you can find out just about anything about how to fix/ repair or use that tool. With careful research and some money you can buy some of the best tools in the world online and have them delivered to your door- the amateur is no longer limited by what the local tool shop has on display. If I was starting over again I don't think I'd change a thing- I learnt a lot about tools and their use by buying as I did. I rarely bought "cheap" (poor quality) tools and rarely regretted any purchase. It took 20 years to build up the sort of tool kit that allows me to take on any project I want now and those tools and their use brings me a lot of happiness. Enjoy the journey!



Thank you very much. There are some tools, that I would buy vintage, e.g. planes no. 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 ( I want to try them If i like them better than 4 and 5, which I already have). But some vintage tools cost as much as new ones. E.g. vintage no.7 costs on ebay + import fees + shipping the same as Veritas bevel up jointer. Or I can buy locally a wooden jointer with double iron very cheap. Or I can buy a new stanley no.7 - and hope for the best. The same goes for router planes. Old Stanley 71 + import fees + shipping costs as much as new veritas router plane. If Paul Sellers did not go online, maybe we would have different prices for those tools


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## carpenteire2009 (23 Jun 2021)

I think you have a very valid point about Paul Sellers, that and the fact that anybody can look up tools and put values on them that are quite often at odds with what their true value is, considering condition etc. A lot of delusional sellers out there trying to sell tools that are in very poor condition! Keep hunting, you may get lucky!


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## Jameshow (23 Jun 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Reviews are good if buying unseen, some common engineers precision tools generally seem to be made to a better standard than other things I bought for similar money but for woodworking.
> Marking out tools are about the only thing that I'd buy new, and for near everything else woodworking related has been on the bay or local.
> However I'd not be overly keen to buy _used _engineers tools on the bay again,
> as they may have had a long hard life in industry, and new equivalents being cheaper.
> ...



5 1/2 record plane new? 

Most of these planes are soba made. 

Quality of casting are good. 

Cheers James


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## thetyreman (23 Jun 2021)

you can also make your own tools! that's yet another option, not for the feint hearted and you need precise tools to even be able to do it well, but wooden planes can be surprisingly nice, the only downside being that the sole needs flattening periodically and the throat will get wider over time, but it's a good test of skills.


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## tibi (23 Jun 2021)

thetyreman said:


> you can also make your own tools! that's yet another option, not for the feint hearted and you need precise tools to even be able to do it well, but wooden planes can be surprisingly nice, the only downside being that the sole needs flattening periodically and the throat will get wider over time, but it's a good test of skills.


Yes that is another option. I would like to build either Krenov style or Razee planes myself. I need to try out what will fit my hands better in the long use. Another thing is if I will use the pin or the wedge slot. Laminated or chiseled out? ... many options are there.


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## thetyreman (23 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Yes that is another option. I would like to build either Krenov style or Razee planes myself. I need to try out what will fit my hands better in the long use. Another thing is if I will use the pin or the wedge slot. Laminated or chiseled out? ... many options are there.



I can recommend the krenov style, it can be built for a low cost, the highest cost being the blade and cap iron but they are still cheaper than a lot of vintage planes, you can get a much much tighter mouth as well and easily control this when making it, the book by david finck is excellent.


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## tibi (23 Jun 2021)

thetyreman said:


> I can recommend the krenov style, it can be built for a low cost, the highest cost being the blade and cap iron but they are still cheaper than a lot of vintage planes, you can get a much much tighter mouth as well and easily control this when making it, the book by david finck is excellent.


I like personally the Krenov style more, but how does it feel in the hand if you have no tote/knob/horn? If I want to build a jack plane/scrub plane, would it be easy to push when removing rough material? I want smoother as well, but I would build a complete set. 

What about blades? I can buy either Veritas/Hock versions or I can buy a double iron for wooden planes and cut it in half above the screw, so that it does not stick out too much - if the cap iron will still function properly.


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## shed9 (23 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Thank you very much. There are some tools, that I would buy vintage, e.g. planes no. 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 ( I want to try them If i like them better than 4 and 5, which I already have). But some vintage tools cost as much as new ones. E.g. vintage no.7 costs on ebay + import fees + shipping the same as Veritas bevel up jointer. Or I can buy locally a wooden jointer with double iron very cheap. Or I can buy a new stanley no.7 - and hope for the best. The same goes for router planes. Old Stanley 71 + import fees + shipping costs as much as new veritas router plane. If Paul Sellers did not go online, maybe we would have different prices for those tools


If it wasn't Paul Sellers then someone else would fill that slot in terms of exposure on Youtube. The same is true across the board of many industries and hobbies. I used to be able to pick up old MIR, Jupiter and Helios lenses, even Contax Zeiss for decent amounts before the onslaught of budding Youtube photographer channel creators. Incredibly oxymoronic in being advised by a Youtuber to buy that cheap under appreciated Russian lens before a Youtuber's advice makes it unaffordable and way overpriced. 

You could contact an online seller, i.e. a dedicated web shop dealing in vintage hand tools and ask them to put a package together such as a block plane, a no 4, no 5.5, no 7 and some chisels for example (just an example - don't over analyse the options). You are more likely to receive decent tooling beyond the skeet shoot that is Ebay and you can benefit from the economies of scale in one shipment / import cost.


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## D_W (23 Jun 2021)

carpenteire2009 said:


> I think you have a very valid point about Paul Sellers, that and the fact that anybody can look up tools and put values on them that are quite often at odds with what their true value is, considering condition etc. A lot of delusional sellers out there trying to sell tools that are in very poor condition! Keep hunting, you may get lucky!



100 percent of the time, the way to check open market prices is to look only at sold items on eBay. Since eBay removed the cost to list and relist years ago, the listed price information has become meaningless.


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## tibi (23 Jun 2021)

shed9 said:


> If it wasn't Paul Sellers then someone else would fill that slot in terms of exposure on Youtube. The same is true across the board of many industries and hobbies. I used to be able to pick up old MIR, Jupiter and Helios lenses, even Contax Zeiss for decent amounts before the onslaught of budding Youtube photographer channel creators. Incredibly oxymoronic in being advised by a Youtuber to buy that cheap under appreciated Russian lens before a Youtuber's advice makes it unaffordable and way overpriced.
> 
> You could contact an online seller, i.e. a dedicated web shop dealing in vintage hand tools and ask them to put a package together such as a block plane, a no 4, no 5.5, no 7 and some chisels for example (just an example - don't over analyse the options). You are more likely to receive decent tooling beyond the skeet shoot that is Ebay and you can benefit from the economies of scale in one shipment / import cost.



I have pondered about this idea in the past, but I did not find a single shop where they had most of the tools at a condition I wanted at that time. But I will recheck those stores definitely in the future.


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## thetyreman (23 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> I like personally the Krenov style more, but how does it feel in the hand if you have no tote/knob/horn? If I want to build a jack plane/scrub plane, would it be easy to push when removing rough material? I want smoother as well, but I would build a complete set.
> 
> What about blades? I can buy either Veritas/Hock versions or I can buy a double iron for wooden planes and cut it in half above the screw, so that it does not stick out too much - if the cap iron will still function properly.



I've never found the krenov ones having no handle to be an issue, and mine is 55 degrees as well, don't let that put you off, once set up they feel wonderful and it should sing through the wood, mine is a smoother which I designed for figured woods, you could in theory add in a handle or horns if it really bothers you, best to make one first and see how it feels to you.


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## eribaMotters (23 Jun 2021)

Back to the title. Buy the best you need. Spend as much as you can afford on the everyday stuff that is in your hands for a long time. Other stuff you do not need to be so extravagant on and it frees up your available funds. 

Colin


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## tibi (23 Jun 2021)

D_W said:


> 100 percent of the time, the way to check open market prices is to look only at sold items on eBay. Since eBay removed the cost to list and relist years ago, the listed price information has become meaningless.


That is a very good piece of advice. At least I will know what price should I expect to pay for an item that I want. I did the search and the prices paid vary big time. So you can get lucky and get a nice plane for a rather low price - or ridiculously high price, if you are willing to bit that much.


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## Ttrees (23 Jun 2021)

Jameshow said:


> 5 1/2 record plane new?
> 
> Most of these planes are soba made.
> 
> ...


Seems so, well for this 5 1/2 plane yes, a nice thick even casting front to back, and a fairly tidy mouth of normal size, not like a burgundy cheap stanley with a huge mouth which likely would be a weak spot if dropped at some stage in its life.
I wouldn't say the quality is the same for the 60 1/2, as I had one of those, and there was a bit of a pocket in the casting of the sole of that plane.

If it was out of the stiff plastic heat shrink, I could have given that
lever cap screw a test, I doubt I'd like it TBH.
Likewise no way to test for square in the pack.
I've seen these before local in Chadwicks, and once again on discount for the same money, and a cheap not as nice no 4 plane beside for a lot more dough.
I thought it was a mistake the first time, strange and maybe a coincidence.


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## Keith Cocker (24 Jun 2021)

TRITON said:


> As good as kitten ?.


Much better! Only bat has the special ingredient COVID-19. It makes all the difference.


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## jcassidy (24 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Thanks for the answer. I would be glad to know some good online irish sites where I can purchase woodworking handtools. I will save on the import fees from the Uk.



easyliveauction.com Mostly UK-based but does include some Irish, Northern Irish (and therefore still within the EU) and Cypriot auctioneers. You'd want to check that they will post to you first, obviously... most are more than happy to package up a couple of saws or whatever.


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## Jameshow (24 Jun 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Seems so, well for this 5 1/2 plane yes, a nice thick even casting front to back, and a fairly tidy mouth of normal size, not like a burgundy cheap stanley with a huge mouth which likely would be a weak spot if dropped at some stage in its life.
> I wouldn't say the quality is the same for the 60 1/2, as I had one of those, and there was a bit of a pocket in the casting of the sole of that plane.
> 
> If it was out of the stiff plastic heat shrink, I could have given that
> ...


Do you have a link??? 

Cheers James


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## jcassidy (24 Jun 2021)

Check out things like adverts.ie - there are some very very good sellers on there, and yes, some of the prices reflect collectors interest (router planes being a great example) but you can get standard tools such as planes, chisels etc. at very reasonable prices. A lot of these people will also be happy to build you a bundle of tools for a price, all nicely cleaned up.

What you want to avoid is the guy who found an old saw in the shed and wants €60 for it...

Honestly the only premium tools I purchase are squares (esp. Starrett), pencils, and books, but I'm only a fake woodworker trying to relive my glorious youth.


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## Ttrees (24 Jun 2021)

@Jameshow, oops, I thought it was a no.5 1/2 from the packaging.
Although it is probably the most do all plane you could own, they seem 
not particularly suited to anything in particular to me, and a bit heavy for scrubbish work.
That's about the only good thing for a no.5 lemon,
In winter I find a no.4 too short and me sleeve gets caught on the heel.
Here's a link nonetheless, it is heavy









Irwin Record Jack Plane - 14 x 2in


Find Irwin Record Jack Plane - 14 x 2in at Homebase.




www.homebase.co.uk


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## Jameshow (24 Jun 2021)

Ttrees said:


> @Jameshow, oops, I thought it was a no.5 1/2 from the packaging.
> Although it is probably the most do all plane you could own, they seem
> not particularly suited to anything in particular to me, and a bit heavy for scrubbish work.
> That's about the only good thing for a no.5 lemon,
> ...



I have a spear and Jackson no5 probably the same plane. Nice plane was using mine recently for cutting the breadboards on a table I'm making. 

I also have a Wickes no5 which I've made into a scrub Blane with beveled blade great for rough timber prep. 

Cheers James


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## Ttrees (24 Jun 2021)

Not seeing a wicks brand no.5, but I see there's some difference in the casting of both the S&J plane and the R/I plane, the former having webbing.
If these foundries were to make a ductile iron plane, I'd have a more value in a cheapo and just let a nice patina of dust and oxidation cover it.
I doubt I'd ever notice the brand name.


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## D_W (24 Jun 2021)

jcassidy said:


> Check out things like adverts.ie - there are some very very good sellers on there, and yes, some of the prices reflect collectors interest (router planes being a great example) but you can get standard tools such as planes, chisels etc. at very reasonable prices. A lot of these people will also be happy to build you a bundle of tools for a price, all nicely cleaned up.
> 
> What you want to avoid is the guy who found an old saw in the shed and wants €60 for it...
> 
> Honestly the only premium tools I purchase are squares (esp. Starrett), pencils, and books, but I'm only a fake woodworker trying to relive my glorious youth.



Actually, I think using a good pencil is a bigger difference than LN vs. Stanley, for example. 

There's a misunderstanding with the blind "buy the best you can afford" recommendation that something like an LN plane and set of V11 chisels will yield any improvement in productivity over any decent English chisels and any good bailey pattern older plane. 

There's little effect to this on experienced woodworkers (who will soon find that marking and design and organizing things are where the trouble is, not with sharpening tools, which becomes a <1 minute process for chisels and a 1 minute process or a little more for plane irons - double that for V11 and A2, but you won't get double the interval between sharpenings, definitely not with A2 and with V11, only if planing really clean wood like in a test. 

But to have nice marking tools (not expensive ones, not super fine prissy ones, but rather things like knives that mark well and pencils that have a strong point and mark well), there's a lot to be said for that. 

I have used palomino blackwings in the shop before to mark (they are divine - expensive, but divine) as well as tombows, etc, and I've used pencils that are 24 for $1 (and they are OK, too, but the chance that they keep their point when they hit a bump is much lower). The chance that they even keep a fine point when sharpening is much lower.


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## RobinBHM (24 Jun 2021)

I bought an old set of stanley 5001 chisels -they sharpen up pretty good, never had any need to spend loads

on the other hand I bought a scheppach track saw -found it rather poor and then bought a festool track saw -which I use often.


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## RobinBHM (24 Jun 2021)

D_W said:


> Actually, I think using a good pencil is a bigger difference than LN vs. Stanley, for example



I use these pencils:

HB for general marking out and writing and 2H for precise marking


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## jcassidy (24 Jun 2021)

Yes, these, and lots. I'm an habitual misplacer-of-pencils and like to have a handful ready to go.


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## Tony Zaffuto (25 Jun 2021)

In the end, all edge tools and pencils need sharpened!

As for premium tools, maybe we should concentrate more on a tool being made correctly, rather than the name?


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## Jacob (25 Jun 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I use these pencils:
> 
> HB for general marking out and writing and 2H for precise marking


Buy different brands so that your HBs and 2Hs are different colours. A primary school teacher taught me that!


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## Selwyn (25 Jun 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I bought an old set of stanley 5001 chisels -they sharpen up pretty good, never had any need to spend loads
> 
> on the other hand I bought a scheppach track saw -found it rather poor and then bought a festool track saw -which I use often.



You can buy a set of 5002 for £18 new. No idea how bad they are


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## D_W (25 Jun 2021)

Selwyn said:


> You can buy a set of 5002 for £18 new. No idea how bad they are



They will probably be like the irwins are now (showing evidence of being a lower carbon steel than a more typical 0.8-1.1 chisel of yore), but there's nothing in terms of material costs that would keep them from being very good. For example, if they were drop forged from 1% chrome vanadium rod and heat treated properly, they could be a match for most anything. The cost of that rod would only be a couple of dollars for chisels (I think it's about $1.5-$2 a pound in USD terms for lower grade rod of that spec). The savings from using a lower carbon rod are in the fractions of a dollar, but the specs for a site chisel (lower hardness than a cabinetmaker's chisel) may make the lower carbon stuff a better choice (won't go into the hardening and tempering and how alloys affect final hardness without changing process other than to say if you ran the same induction hardening and tempering line with .6% carbon steel and 1% carbon steel, the latter would be a couple of points harder. 

At any rate, the takeaway from this being that there's no real reason that a chinese made set of 5 pound-each chisels couldn't be very good and still be profitable to sell.


----------



## Tony Zaffuto (25 Jun 2021)

D_W said:


> They will probably be like the irwins are now (showing evidence of being a lower carbon steel than a more typical 0.8-1.1 chisel of yore), but there's nothing in terms of material costs that would keep them from being very good. For example, if they were drop forged from 1% chrome vanadium rod and heat treated properly, they could be a match for most anything. The cost of that rod would only be a couple of dollars for chisels (I think it's about $1.5-$2 a pound in USD terms for lower grade rod of that spec). The savings from using a lower carbon rod are in the fractions of a dollar, but the specs for a site chisel (lower hardness than a cabinetmaker's chisel) may make the lower carbon stuff a better choice (won't go into the hardening and tempering and how alloys affect final hardness without changing process other than to say if you ran the same induction hardening and tempering line with .6% carbon steel and 1% carbon steel, the latter would be a couple of points harder.
> 
> At any rate, the takeaway from this being that there's no real reason that a chinese made set of 5 pound-each chisels couldn't be very good and still be profitable to sell.


But, but, but David, don’t you know here in the states, we have many boutique toolmakers, that have figured out how to capture unicorn tears, that make their goods truly premium! Look at the handsaw makers that emerged (with as many folding) over the past two decades. Put aside the like of LN, LV and a couple others, you end up with a significant number that are in business to fund their hobbies. Many produce goods no better that those available at Lowes, etc., except for 4 times the price.


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## powertools (25 Jun 2021)

If you have the money and the desire to own a full set of tools then just buy anything you want. When starting out you don't need a full set of tools and if you go down the second hand route it could take a long time to build up even the most basic kit.
In my opinion just buy the mid price tools needed for the job in hand and build up and replace as the need arises.


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## shed9 (26 Jun 2021)

D_W said:


> There's a misunderstanding with the blind "buy the best you can afford" recommendation that something like an LN plane and set of V11 chisels will yield any improvement in productivity over any decent English chisels and any good bailey pattern older plane.



It's not a blind recommendation though is it? These recommendations come with experience. Admittedly a good bailey pattern older plane is a viable alternative to any offering from LN but the operative word in that statement is the phrase 'good'; not something assured to the same level of the QA of LN considering the controlled distribution. Also yield of productivity is not the point for some people, for some people it's the woodworking itself, not how fast they can bang out widgets.

If the likes of LN, LV and Clifton didn't exist, people would be asking why there aren't any modern makers making premium tools.


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## D_W (26 Jun 2021)

It's often a blind recommendation. There's less of it here than there is on the american forums, but Tony hit on it above - at one point, the idea of buying a non tensioned non-tapered carpenter's saw for $600 was considered money well spent ("buy once, cry once"), and there have been dovetail saws for as much as $500+. 

I'm sure they all work well. Learning to sharpen an older saw and keep it in good shape will be more productive for the average person (and a disston 8 or 7 or 12 is probably better than any saw made by anyone now, anyway). 

When I came to this forum however long ago, I was surprised at how cynical folks were about some of the nicer made tools (not all, but some) and how some ideas that are pretty closely followed in the US (modern irons, modern sharpening stones, etc) were just sort of ignored here.


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## Spectric (26 Jun 2021)

D_W said:


> There's a misunderstanding with the blind "buy the best you can afford" recommendation that something like an LN plane and set of V11 chisels will yield any improvement in productivity over any decent English chisels and any good bailey pattern older plane.


That fails if your budget is so low that you can only buy rubbish, time then to save up or use an interest free payment site. Also unless you can use the tool then it does not mater how much you spend or how good it is, this from experience in that even with a top notch trowel that in a freinds hands can lay bricks but in mine it might as well be a spade.


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## D_W (27 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> That fails if your budget is so low that you can only buy rubbish, time then to save up or use an interest free payment site. Also unless you can use the tool then it does not mater how much you spend or how good it is, this from experience in that even with a top notch trowel that in a freinds hands can lay bricks but in mine it might as well be a spade.



This is a situation that suggests someone shouldn't be woodworking (cost of materials is the killer for me in terms of making things. That is, if I'm going to make something I'd like to make, but I have nothing to do with it, it's easy to get into four figures in materials and then what...In a baseline scenario here, decent wood is about $2 a board foot at the cheapest, and nice wood starts around $4-$5 a board foot. Things add up fast. 

It's probably still true there that if you get out on the ground in a weekend morning, you can find things in a car boot. Perhaps not quickly, but you can find something good. I never liked doing that and paid market price or the occasional deal price for used tools, but with a little capability comes the desire to make nicer things and material cost is unavoidable. 

AT the extreme edge of that is finding tree men here to see if you can get logs (in the suburbs, they're usually ground or left at the side of the road - if the tree men know nothing else about the disposal, they'll buck the logs - so that someone can be enticed on CL or another site to come pick up and take the wood - and then it's too late). But even at that, if you're lucky enough to get something like maple or cherry out of a yard tree, it's not common for the wood to be very good. 

It's just a tough hobby for someone on that tight of a budget.


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## D_W (27 Jun 2021)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> But, but, but David, don’t you know here in the states, we have many boutique toolmakers, that have figured out how to capture unicorn tears, that make their goods truly premium! Look at the handsaw makers that emerged (with as many folding) over the past two decades. Put aside the like of LN, LV and a couple others, you end up with a significant number that are in business to fund their hobbies. Many produce goods no better that those available at Lowes, etc., except for 4 times the price.



Once in a great while, something is made so well new that you can make the case that it's hard to better it. But the premium saws thing is a matter of just getting something pretty that's also good and that's ready to use right away. But the next step is a costly one - what happens when a saw is dull. An old saw sharpened often is awfully good. 

And how about the oft-said things about the type of saw steel and the need for hardness, etc. I kind of like saws a touch soft for joinery saws - they're easy on files and you can touch a small joinery saw up in about three minutes. 5 for a rip carpenter saw - at the most. 

I guess the trouble for someone new is telling the difference between a $20 saw that's been made recently and isn't worth having vs. a $20 flea market saw like a disston 4 that is capable of really great work and will have a good level of hardness to be filed and used. 

LN and LV probably came into business like fender's custom division. I used to wonder why fender thought it was OK for them to make not so sonically accurate versions of their stock amps starting at 3-4 times the price and up from there. And they answered that question when someone asked it on a tour. "it wasn't our idea - it was constant requests of customers asking". The kind of customers who see a $1200 amp and a $5k amp made slightly differently as being the same price (because to them, it is relatively the same price. It's a different price to me!! Neither makes anyone sound like Tim Pierce, and neither even sounds exactly like the original fender amps, but the latter is just what a small segment of the market wants and they don't want it if it comes from a boutique refit shop).


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## Giles55 (28 Jun 2021)

tibi said:


> Thank you for your answer. It was not said in my original question, but I am more in search of vintage or modern quality tools that can perform very well (with some tool fetling if necessary). I never want to buy as cheap as possible just to get a tool. I know some people who do and I have been burnt in the past by their recommendation of a "good" tool. If I do not have enough money for a tool,I still can postpone the purchase and wait until I do have that amount of money allocated for the tool. The pity is that no toolmaker (especially the big box store one) do not write on its product, that it is actually a rubbish).


Yes, no problem. I have also thought of something else worth considering. When I started buying my own tools I new I would most likely have to spend many hours getting them set up correctly. An example would be my low angle block plane, a record. At the time I purchased the plane new, I only found one supplier offering the discounted price. I purchased the plane, it arrived and was the worst plane I have ever seen. The sole had a lump of 0.8 mm and the metal which the blade rests upon was so misshapen only a corner of the blade could be exposed. I purchased the plane in September and I set up a lapping plate by the kettle. Every time I drank tea I did 200 or 400 laps. Slow, measured mindful laps not the furious business you see on YouTube. I drink a lot of tea, it took a month and a half, then I had to file the casting and put lamp black on the blade, incrementally adjusting until the blade made full contact and sat parallel with the mouth. It took two months to complete. I don’t think I would do that now, I would buy a more expensive tool. But levels of commitment and motivation are worth considering. If you buy vintage tools and you ask the right questions on eBay for example, you should be able to get tools which won’t require excessive work. If you are not interested in fettling then obviously the expensive tools are the way to go. I have noticed my enthusiasm for correcting dreadful tools has waned. So again it’s all about where your priorities lie.


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## D_W (28 Jun 2021)

Giles55 said:


> I have noticed my enthusiasm for correcting dreadful tools has waned. So again it’s all about where your priorities lie.



This only becomes a problem for people who never get interested in woodworking. Otherwise, setting up a small gaggle of old tools should be enough to solve the problem of being ready to woodwork. There used to be a guy on an american forum who did almost nothing to recondition planes and then resold them. At some point, he started talking about how it was no longer fun because he couldn't easily profit on his ebay store. His view was that the market was ruined, and the hand tool woodworking thing wasn't fun. 

I've lost the interest in buying tools just to fix them up and try them out (but have seen enough of them -there's little new for me to see). I can't make someone else have the experience that have in setting up fairly bad tools (it rarely takes long and there has to be something structurally unfit for things to not work out, but once in every 5 chances or so, that does happen - the tool is rubbish. 4 out of 5, the tool is usable and I'd notice nothing different between it and anything else).

On the same note, nobody who runs an organized and very productive hybrid shop could just tell me what to do to churn out a dozen kitchen cabinets in a week, either.


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