# Has anyone tried replacing viceroy bearings?



## graduate_owner (3 Dec 2017)

My Denford Viceroy lathe seems to have developed a vibration and I suspect bearings. I have put a bar in a chuck and can feel some movement. So has anyone done a bearing replacement and can offer any advice, also tell me what type of bearings I need and where to buy them?

K


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## Farmer Giles (3 Dec 2017)

Funny you should say that G_O, I was contemplating the same. Lathes.co.uk reckon they are "Timken taper roller-bearings or ball races" however if you look at the general arrangement below







Then the headstock are a pair of 6208-ZZ (or you can use 2Z) and the intermediate shaft a pair of 6205-ZZ (again 2Z are similar)

I'm going to pay a couple of quid more and get the SKF energy efficient version with high tech grease.

Same goes for the other two. They are ubiquitous and virtually every bearing shop sell them, ebay etc.

EDIT - the diagram and more are all on the Denford forum 
EDIT2 - I would check out the old ones first before buying, there were different versions and parts can change through the manufacture period so who knows, maybe some did have Timken taper roller bearings.

Cheers
Andy


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## graduate_owner (3 Dec 2017)

Thanks Andy. Do you know how the bearings are removed? I'm not sure I feel confident enough to tackle it without prior information.

K


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## Farmer Giles (3 Dec 2017)

Looking at the diagram, it means taking off the aluminium end caps, slide the shaft out, there may be a grub screw in the pulley. This will expose the bearing which should be pushed out from behind or with a slide hammer. Not sure until I take a look. 

The reason I'm changing mine is mainly age of the grease in them, the turning resistance is a bit high, a slight noise but not too bad. I think I may change the intermediate shaft bearings too, then I can change the nut link belts back to the original A section belts. According to the diagram, the top belt is A section 5' 6" long, but it doesn't say if this is inside, outside or pitch length. However that is 1676mm and belts do come with 1676mm inside length but not outside or pitch so I'm guessing it means inside. The bottom belt is the same length.

If you can wait a while I'll let you know how it goes, I'm at work all this week and working away so it will be next week before I get chance to do much, first step is to take off the two alloy covers and check if the bearing are what the diagram says they should be, usually the bearing numbers are stamped on the bearing, there is a numbering convention amongst manufacturers

Cheers
Andy


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## graduate_owner (4 Dec 2017)

Thank you Andy, that is very helpful of you. I will wait to hear from you before I get stuck in.

K


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## Farmer Giles (4 Dec 2017)

Hi G_O

I did get chance to take off one aluminium cover, they are the 6208 bearings, it looks like mine have been replaced at least once, the ones used are only sealed once side, i.e. Z bearings, not ZZ or 2Z, see here for bearing notation explanations. See below for bearing details of the bearings fitted to my lathe's headstock.






I'm not going with the bearing I specified in an earlier mail, they are C3 rated which means they have extra clearance capability for when running hot, I don't think my lathe will ever run hot 

I'll let you know what I order

Cheers
Andy


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## Farmer Giles (4 Dec 2017)

Just checked the diagram, both upper and lower belts are 5'6" indicating an A66 belt, however if you look at the parts list document, the lower one is 4'6" (A54) So I will have to wait until I'm near the lathe before ordering. I think the parts list is correct as the standard lathe, single ended bowl lathe and the short bed lathe parts list all say the same thing and they share the same basic design.


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## graduate_owner (4 Dec 2017)

Thanks Andy. I just looked online and these bearings are very reasonably priced at about £10-£12 each for well known makes. I shall wait to see how things go with you first though, especially regarding getting the old ones out.

K


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## Farmer Giles (4 Dec 2017)

I went ahead and ordered the SFK bearings, having read into it, the C3 clearance won't make much difference but the 30% improvement in efficiency in 3 sets of bearings may add up to a bit more torque at the headstock. I used them in the motor, so I'll use them in the intermediate and headstock too. I also took a gamble and ordered an A66 and an A54 belt. All from Henderson's bearings.

So this weekend I hope to have a fully working lathe again and contemplate spinning my first bit of wood 

Cheers
Andy


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## graduate_owner (9 Dec 2017)

Well I am wondering now if my bearings do need replacing. I took the alloy covers off, fitted the chuck and bar as before, and there was hardly any movement. Perhaps the chuck wasn't fully tightened on to the headstock spindle before. Anyway I shall keep watching this thread so please keep posting details as you make progress.

K


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## Farmer Giles (9 Dec 2017)

I managed to get an hour in today before the youngest's brass band concert took precedence. The bearings and belts arrived yesterday.

I took the outboard headstock alloy cover off revealing a locking collar and a locking nut.






There are two allen grub screws needed to take the collar off. You can see that this has been off before due to the marks where the grub screw used to be. When taking off the collar, file off any burrs around the spindle locking holes first or it will jam.






Then it is time to get the locking nut off. There is an allen grub screw on the opposite side of the notch. The marks on the notch indicate that somebody has given it some welly to take this off by unscrewing a right hand thread.






However this scan of an original Denford drawing of the locking nut indicates it is a left hand thread.






I haven't had a go at locking the spindle and moving the locking nut yet, run out of time, once that is free there is a grub screw in the headstock pulley as well as a keyway. It appears that once the nut is free and the pulley is undone then the shaft will simply slide out towards the tailstock. Fat chance of it being simple but I'll leave that for tomorrow. 






Cheers
Andy


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## Farmer Giles (10 Dec 2017)

I had an hour at this morning, I had to make it look like I was working on putting the floor in the new extension but managed to do get a bit done during my frequent trips to the workshop for "tools" 

First put the spindle lock mechanism back on, lock the spindle and tap the lock nut with a drift. It is a left hand thread unsurprisingly. 






Here's the lock nut, it has a raised area so it only touches the bearing on the shaft side of the bearings so the bearing can rotate when the nut is locked. I shall be writing LH thread on the visible side of the nut before replacing the lock collar. I checked before trying to move it but the next person might not, it will save them much swearing and gnashing of teeth 






Next I removed the spindle lock mechanism and loosened the grub screw in the headstock pulley and took the belt off. I marked where the pulley was on the shaft with an indelible pen. You can't see it in this picture, it's hiding behind the belt. I will give the shaft a bit of a rub down with emery paper to remove rust and give it a bit of oil so the shaft can move through the pulley as I take the shaft out of the bearings.






I then gave the spindle a playful tap with a rubber mallet and a wooden drift to see how tight it was. Nothing doing so it looks like a push or pull job. In my case pushing is probably easier as I have a small cast faceplate for the outboard thread. So will rig up a method to squeeze them out, I have an idea however I need hand like an octopus to line it all up without scratching the paint so I have given my mate a call, he will be around later. Here's the spindle without lock nut.






To be continued when I have thawed out


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## Farmer Giles (10 Dec 2017)

Well, we have the shaft out, it wasn't a big struggle but involved a bit of jiggling. I don't have any photos of it in progress. My neighbour is more used to bearing removal than me, he works as a toolmaker in the aerospace industry, I fly a desk in IT 

We didn't need any pressure from clamps etc. He gave the outboard shaft a bigger thump with a copper faced mallet than I did and it shifted so we continued. Both bearings stayed with the shaft initially and came out of the headstock, however the pulley didn't move even after removing the grub screw. Cleaning the shaft with emery paper and a bit of oil is key here. We pushed the shaft out towards the inboard shaft and used the inside of the headstock casting to move the pulley off its keyway. We used a piece of steel bar that had a shoulder on it as a drift, the drift just fit inside the outboard shaft and the shoulder pushed on the shaft. Here's the key.






Once the pulley was loose we then had to get one of the bearings off before we could pull the shaft out as the pulley is too big to come through the bearing holes. This has to be the outboard bearing as the inboard bearing is against a solid shoulder. To do this we put the bearing back into the headstock housing and we had a bit of luck and the shaft popped out of the bearing allowing us to remove the shaft after taking the pulley off. Here's the shaft with the inbound bearing still attached, this needs to be pushed all the way down the shaft to get it off as it is up against the shoulder, I'll clean the shaft up first before doing this.






The bearing now in the housing came out with light taps top and bottom alternatively with a drift.

I then spotted that the supplier has sent me the wrong bearings in error, 6207 not 6208 I'll get more sent to me. In the meantime I'll get the bearing off the shaft and start on the intermediate pulley bearings.

I would definitely get an extra pair of hands with the headstock shaft removal, holding the drift hammer, pulley and looking what is happening and whether the pulley or bearing is moving all at the same time is difficult.

Cheers
Andy


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## Farmer Giles (11 Dec 2017)

I only had 10 minutes today, just enough to get the intermediate pulley out.

First undo the upper belt tensioning adjusters completely. You have to do this a bit on each side at time. These are indicated in red below.






Once out the pulley drops away, its aluminium so not heavy but you don't want to drop it on the motor pulley and cause damage. Here you can see the adjusters, and that the bearings are held in with circlips.






Now I have the belts free I can see if the parts list or diagram is correct. Both wrong, the diagram shows two A66 belts AKA 66" inside diameter, the parts list indicated one A66 for the upper and an A54 for the lower. The A54 is more like the upper long belt, the lower one is much shorter. I shall measure them properly tomorrow. First impressions are that there is plenty of adjustment on the intermediate pulley so the A54 will be fine up top, that is the one you don't want to get wrong as its a pain to replace having to take both the main shaft and intermediate pulley out to replace, the bottom belt is easier as its just the intermediate pulley.






I have a large stash of belts from various renovations so I may have one in stock that fits the bottom.

Cheers
Andy


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## Farmer Giles (14 Dec 2017)

Not much progress, busy on building work, however I did get chance to look at the belts. The top belt looked a bit smaller than the A54, I guessed an A51 then I searched for Viceroy belts, which I should have done in the first place, and a guy on the Denford forum just recently changed his belts and confirmed that the top is A51 and the bottom is A43. So where the guy who drew the drawings back in the 70s got his dimension from I know not, he must have been overwhelmed with Brut Splash on fumes when he drew them 

So two belts on order and my correct bearings are here so hopefully should be able to get this together next week and finish off the thread. Given the belts are pigs to change, I have gone for the premium Dunlop versions, only about a quid extra, hopefully wont' need changing until the next time the bearings do.

_"Dunlop ‘Premium’ belts now feature a multi-layer construction. A stronger and more durable polyester tension cord placed between layers of polychloroprene, with a rubber base that is wrapped in an abrasion resistant long-life fabric cover give a higher dynamic load and add flexibility which can overcome many causes of failure and inefficiency. This advanced construction and improvement in component design and material enables the belt to accommodate heavy tension loads with minimal elongation, resulting in the delivery of up to 40% more power than traditional standard wrapped belts. With energy efficiency capability of up to 97%, assuming the drive has been correctly designed, there is a life expectancy in the region of 25,000 hours or almost three years continuous operation."_

I'm putting a wiring diagram on the inside of the door, I shall add bearing and belt sizes to it, always handy to know.

Cheers
Andy


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## minilathe22 (15 Dec 2017)

Have you considered putting more than one belt over, and tying the spare belt out of the way? It looks like you could do this for the lower belt at least.


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## Farmer Giles (15 Dec 2017)

minilathe22":1936jdh9 said:


> Have you considered putting more than one belt over, and tying the spare belt out of the way? It looks like you could do this for the lower belt at least.



I must be getting old, I had to read that several times before I got my head around it, suddenly the light bulb went on as I reached for my beer :idea:  

I could do, but I also have the old nutlink belts so could resort to putting that back on if necessary. I'll see if the two new belts fit first, the guy on the Denford forum had a similar lathe, but with the wider cabinet. I should be the same size belts but you never know.....

I don't think I'll need to, if the pulleys are aligned correctly then they should last ages....

I collected my fourth Meddings drill yesterday so my workshop tinkering time was limited to winching that up into the workshop today. There is method in my madness, I intend to make 3 good ones out of the four and sell at least one off, if not two.


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## graduate_owner (16 Dec 2017)

This has been very interesting and informative. Thanks for taking the time to describe in so much detail, and all those photos make things so much clearer. If my bearings need replacing ( not sure yet) I will be much more confident now.

And - what's wrong with having 4 Meddings drills anyway?

K


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## jw00d (18 Dec 2017)

Thanks for a very informative thread. I think my Viceroy needs a bearing change as I'm getting the beginnings of a screeching noise when turning between centres. It's fine when turning bowls and no noticeable play in the spindle but I guess it's possible the bearings have never been changed before and somethings gone bad.

Also... any chance you could post a couple more pictures of the spindle locking mechanism on your Viceroy please? Mine doesn't have that part and looks quite useful so would like to try and make a substitute if possible.

Thanks again, and hope you've found some time to use your lathe now.

Jamie


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## Farmer Giles (19 Dec 2017)

jw00d":3exox9r1 said:


> Also... any chance you could post a couple more pictures of the spindle locking mechanism on your Viceroy please? Mine doesn't have that part and looks quite useful so would like to try and make a substitute if possible.
> Jamie



Here you go Jamie, here's the spindle lock, not much to it. Diagrams are probably on the Denford forum, you have to search through a vast PDF of various related machines to find the scan.











I haven't got around to using it yet, still awaiting the belts which hopefully will arrive today but the post is variable this time of year.

In the mean time I changed the inboard headstock bearing. First I used some fine emery cloth to buff up the shaft and lubed it up (ooh Matron!) I then used a piece of steel pipe with ID just large than the diameter of the shaft and a hide mallet and wood block and knocked the shaft out of the bearing. You can see the shoulder on the right, the shaft is slightly thinner in the middle so didn't need pushing all the way off, just where it sits and again where the outboard bearing sits before it came off the shaft all together.






I took the circlips off the intermediate pulley bearings, these bearing do feel quite gritty and have a lot of rolling resistance so are probably the ones causing the problem.

In terms of your problem with squealing, I guess it could be belt slippage as you are putting on more load when turning between centres, try some belt dressing spray first, its a lot easier than changing the bearings!

Cheers
Andy


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## Farmer Giles (19 Dec 2017)

Just looking at the intermediate pulley, the diagram and the fact that there is a circlip at both ends implies that to get the bearings out, after taking out the circlips, you push the shaft out of the bearings then you pull the bearings out of the pulley. I gave the shaft a playful thump with a hide mallet and no movement, given that the pulley is unlikely to be available anymore I will have a think about the next step.

I may go and see a neighbour who has an hydraulic press and various fittings for pressing bearings and shafts out. Ideally all the pressure should be on the bearings and shaft not the alloy pulley. Once I have the shaft out I can apply a bit of heat to the alloy pulley and pull the bearings out.


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## graduate_owner (19 Dec 2017)

Mine doesn't have a spindle lock either

K


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## jw00d (19 Dec 2017)

Thanks for the pics Andy.

On closer inspection mine doesn't even have the hole to mount it so I'd have to look at drilling and tapping that as well. Ironically they did remember to install the machine plate reminding me to disengage the lock before starting the lathe!

Once the last xmas presents are finished off I'm definitely going to give mine a clean out and investigate if anything needs changing. I'll look out for some belt spray as well, definitely sounds easier than a full disassembly.

Good luck with the pulley removal.

Jamie


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## Farmer Giles (20 Dec 2017)

Thanks Jamie

On closer inspection of the diagram, it appears that the shaft and bearings need to come out of the pulley as one, then you take the bearings off the shaft due to the thickening off the shaft in the middle. I didn't think that the pulley would fit in my fly press but it does with ease, so the pulley assembly will be put in the oven on a low heat until tender  It's too big to be warmed sufficiently by my heat gun to make a difference and it all has to heat up.

Aluminium has approximately double the coefficient of thermal expansion than steel, so even though in the oven the bearing will get to the same temperature, the pulley should expand more making it easier to push the bearings and shaft out. 

Cheers
Andy


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## Farmer Giles (20 Dec 2017)

After consulting my good friends on the MIG Welding forum for advice, I pressed the shaft and bearings out using my fly press and a collection of bits of old pipe, plates with holes in them and drifts. I really need to make the stand that I bought the 50mm box and 6mm plate for about 4 years ago....






The way to get it out is to press out the shaft, the top bearing stays in place and the shaft comes out with the bottom bearing. You have to do that as there are inner circlips too so pressing the bearing is not going to succeed.






The pulley was full of swarf, there was no evidence of the bearings spinning in the pulley so I can only assume this was from the original machining, all cleaned out now though.






The remaining bearing pushed off easily in the press with a bit of pipe






Reassembly is more or less doing it in reverse however you need to be more careful as you don't want to damage the new bearings. The bearings are snug in the pulley but with a bit of heat in the pulley they don't put up much resistance, the shaft is much tighter when pushing on the bearings so you don't want to be pushing on the periphery of the bearings, but on the centre ring when pushing them onto the shaft.

Just need to wait for the new belts now, will they get here for Christmas or not.....

Cheers
Andy


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## Farmer Giles (20 Dec 2017)

The belts arrived but not the super duper Dunlop premium, just standard belts. Oh well, I shall use them then get onto the supplier for some cash back - sigh.

First, make sure the top pulley fits on the shaft nicely and will move from side to side. I had to polish the burrs off the key. I forgot to mention this earlier, but the allen grub screw is actually doubled, i.e. there is one that screws to the key to hold the pulley in horizontal position, then there is another on top of it to stop the grub screw from coming undone. The following photos show this.











Now this moves up and down nicely, take the pulley off again, put the shaft it into the inboard end of the headstock and thread it through the pulley and don't forget to put the belt onto the shaft!






Now put the bearing on the outboard end of the shaft and press home with a couple of clamps pressing on the two bearings, I used the lathe tool rest to help hold one clamp in position, it is easier if there are two of you but doable with one. By applying pressure evenly on both sides and gently tapping the inboard end of the shaft mine went in nicely. The bearing on the inboard end sits proud of the headstock, but on the outboard end it is rebated a few mm, so you need to find a nice spacer to push it home, you could use and old bearing but you may get it stuck in the housing. Sorry about the picture quality, but I think you get the idea.






I'm having trouble with the left hand thread lock nut, I must have burred the thread a little during bearing removal so I will give that a bit of TLC with a needle file and continue tomorrow. Before I do the nu up completely, I will put the intermediate pulley in place and check that the belt is the right size 

Cheers
Andy


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## Farmer Giles (30 Mar 2018)

Well, only 3 months later, but my wood turning course is coming up in April so I thought I better extract the digit.  I did get sidetracked with building work and the meddings renovation and other stuff.

The top belt was just a little too tight at A51 so an A52 is on order and the bottom belt was as baggy as a wizards sleeve at A43 so an A41 is also on order. I sorted out the left hand threaded locking nut too with the help of a thread chaser from my neighbour.

I really hate swapping the belts but didn't want a nut-link belt so hopefully this will be the last time I have the main shaft and intermediate pulley out. You have to be an octopus to get the shaft, pulley key and belt on without damaging that left hand thread and have a degree in gynaecology to get the intermediate pulley in place with top belt, bottom belt while lining up the two adjusting screws that like to fall off through the small door hole while lying on your back. Fortunately I used to be a gynaecologist, I hold do it now and again now to keep my hand in 

So by next weekend she should be back together with new bearings at last.


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## Farmer Giles (8 Apr 2018)

I can confirm A52 and an A41 belts did the trick. I now have the lathe back up and running with new bearings in motor, intermediate pulley and headstock. I guess I best start doing some turning now 

Back to the main renovation thread for the last few bits of work.


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## Bigbud78 (8 Apr 2018)

Looks awesome, just had a read through your main thread with much interest as I'm currently looking for the same machine for a similar project. If I find something suitable I'll be posting for help no doubt :lol:


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## Farmer Giles (8 Apr 2018)

One tip, change the bearings before painting it! I had a few paint chips that I covered with a small brush and a smattering of choice swear words


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