# Exquisite kitchen knives and other objects of desire......



## Kalimna (2 Feb 2010)

Greetings all, 
Just thought I'd start a new thread after hijacking the honing guide one currently in force over on the Handtools forum........

I have bought a couple of knives from Kin Knives, and do rate their customer service. I've also bumped into the 2 sisters who seem to run it, at their stand at the BBC Good Food Show, Glasgow a couple of times.
I see how their re-branding of knives might cause a little concern, but I can't imagine that they all that nefarious....

I've also bought from Japanese Chefs Knife, if you look at this link, under 240mm Gyuto, I have one of those with the malachite handle.... Razor sharp edge, and slight dimpling effect from the damascus style blade which I can persuade myself improves slicing on certain things 

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/Page3.html

I have looked at NipponKitchen, and the Tojiro blades are lovely too - and the fact that Mr Blumenthal swears by them is no mean recommendation...

The slope is indeed a steep and slippy one 

Cheers.
Adam


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## Steve Maskery (2 Feb 2010)

I've got a couple - a chef's knife and a cleaver. Both fantastic. At least, they were when they were new, I do find them quite difficult to keep sharp. I forget hwere they came from. One was a pressie, the other bought at the Good Food show at the NEC. Both expensive and worth every penny. I love'em.
S


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## bugbear (2 Feb 2010)

Kalimna":128nef3p said:


> I have looked at NipponKitchen, and the Tojiro blades are lovely too - and the fact that Mr Blumenthal swears by them is no mean recommendation...



Heh. Heston's got the expensive ones.

I've got the cheap ones.

BugBear (cheap)


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## Racers (2 Feb 2010)

Hi,

I made my own from 01, came out well, my wife put it in the dishwasher a couple of times, it survived, she nearly didn't :wink: 

Pete


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## Kalimna (2 Feb 2010)

Like everything else, I would, at some point, like to have a go at making a knife. Once the rocking chair, rocking horse, guitar, plane collection, saw and various bits and bobs of furniture are out of the way, then I shall attempt building a mini (Philly) forge in the garden to go next to the wood burning oven (construction tips/plans from a River Cottage book, so should be fairly cheap) I plan to make.... Roads? Good intentions? 

How well does the edge hold on your O1 blade? And yes, I too wince when I see quality knives going anywhere near the dishwasher, or cutting something on a hard surface (eg ceramic/pottery plate that might have a roast or a cake on......).... Grrrrr!

To go with the knives, I am slooooowly growing a collection of copper utensils and pans.... So far the list runs to a ladle and a jam funnel courtesy of my mum 

Anyhoo, back to the grindstone. Literally - todays sharpening tuesday....


Cheers,
Adam


P.S. Ooooh! Post number 100 for me...


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## Racers (2 Feb 2010)

Hi,

My knife stays sharp for ages, I am the only one to use it!

You can't beat quality stuff, we bought Cusinox saucepans that have a 25 year guarantee and after 20 odd years they look as good as when we bought them.

I plan to make another knife some time soon I will do a WIP.


Pete


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## Harbo (2 Feb 2010)

A lot of the Japanese knives sold are not true Japanese style but have been Westernised.

I have a few of this chaps: http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/pro.htm.

Some Damascus ones made from Blue Steel, but also a set of his cheap range.
They take a fantastic edge and stay sharp for a long time - something that I found my Tojiro did not - but they are stainless.

Rod


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## wizer (2 Feb 2010)

Best I can do is a full collection of Global and a Sabatier Cooks Knife. I'm glad I managed to clamber up that slope, never to return (unless lady lottery comes my way).


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## wizer (2 Feb 2010)

Why are we so obsessed with Japanese (serious question). Have we ever produced good cooks knives in the UK? Is there market for a UK 'artisan' to start producing (not me)?


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## frugal (2 Feb 2010)

wizer":5z93i4pa said:


> Why are we so obsessed with Japanese (serious question). Have we ever produced good cooks knives in the UK? Is there market for a UK 'artisan' to start producing (not me)?



I think that the Japanese thing with knives comes from the Samurai swords with much sharper blades than their English counterparts (fair enough when the armour is bamboo rather than steel  ).

Until the recent influx of Japanese knives the preference was for French. I guess that this was because the French have convinced everyone that their cooking is the best so by inference their equipment must be the best (Le Cruset pots, Sabatier knives etc.).

The English have never been seen as high quality cooks worldwide so there has never been any demand for English cooking equipment.

At least that is my theory: The french had it first because they convinced everyone their cooking was better, then the Japanese because they convinced everyone that their equipment was better.


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## Kalimna (2 Feb 2010)

Wizer - you know, it's funny, I had a look at the Global blades, and I just couldnt get happy with their handles - perhaps it's the metal feel. Obviously, nothing to do with utility and entirely personal preference tho...

As to why Japanese blades have such an obsession following them, I think it's perhaps a couple of reasons. Partly it's fashionable for no other reason than it's fashionable (I refer you to any number of A2 vs O1 vs MegaAlloy3 blade discussions, or indeed the Western vs Japanese chisel discussions) at the moment.
Partly, Japan has a significant history of master-craftsmen artisan blade forging (going back beyond samurai etc), which has a considerable amount of mystique attached to it. You know - the 134 yr old wizened gent who only at the age of 64, having trained for 60 years, is considered to be a craftsman.... (ok, so I might be exagerating here a little) I certainly like the 'idea' that the knives (and some of the tools) I have were made by a single chap, and not an industrial production line.
I suspect that most of the UK output, blade wise, has been from such production lines. Now, that is by no means to say that quality is poorer for it, but it does mean that there is less to differentiate between producers.
Im sure there would be a market in the uk, and there are a few kinfe makers out there, but from what I have seen, they are primarily hobby/hunting/pocket knife makers. Here's one....
http://www.rockblade.co.uk/index.html
However, given my assumption of fashion - it might be difficult for an artisan, however skilled and however fine a blade produced, to make a name for themselves in amongst the mass of Japanese and German makers.
I for one would be extremely keen to support any UK industry producing artisan blades (of any variety, be it knife, plane, chisel or saw), perhaps a sticky on one of the forums here listing such folk might be an idea?

The other reason I'm obsessed with Japanese knives is that they look pretty, and make me a much better chef. Naturally. 

Cheers,
Adam


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## wizer (2 Feb 2010)

Kalimna":g8sazb07 said:


> Wizer - you know, it's funny, I had a look at the Global blades, and I just couldnt get happy with their handles - perhaps it's the metal feel. Obviously, nothing to do with utility and entirely personal preference tho...



I bought them because at the time I thought they where the best. I have no problems with the way they feel in the hand, but I've been using them for 10yrs. Like my tools, I've not kept them a well as I should and they could all do with a proper sharpen. Back then I didn't have the obsession with wood that I do now. I'd very much like some nice wooden handled knives. Perhaps I'll splash out next xmas.

I'm not against the fact they are from Japan. Indeed, I'm very interested in Japanese culture and design. Just wondered what the history was of fashionable knives.

I do think that a small one man band could earn a living making top quality kitchen knives with good wood handles. The USP could be British Steel and British woods. If I had anything like the inclination, I'd give it a go. I'll leave it to the experts.


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## Harbo (2 Feb 2010)

When I started cooking many years ago, unless you were into catering, good quality British domestic kitchen knives were not around?
I bought a set of Joseph Rodgers, which are not that good but better than the thin corrugated types which were prevalent at that time?
Other choices were German (Henckels) or French (Sabatier). 

I also bought a small set of Carbon Steel Sabatier which kept a good edge but stained and rusted very easily. The modern ones that I have tried are very poor by comparison.

About 20 years (or so) ago the Sunday Times did a feature on Japanese knives and I was hooked.

I know I have said it before but the best sharpening system is the Edge Pro - I have the cheaper Apex version
http://www.edgeproinc.com/

You can even sharpen spokeshave blades etc on them. Tom bring your knives to the March bash and I will sharpen them for you?

Rod


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## wizer (2 Feb 2010)

Rod that's very kind, I certainly will bring a couple because I'd like to see how that thing works.

When I did my chefs training there was a guy who used to bring his Global knives to college in a special case, a bit like a chisel roll but more rigid and customised. One day on our way home he got stopped by the police as we entered Victoria station. My train was waiting to I left him. When I saw him the next day he'd spent 6 hours in the nick for carrying offensive weapons! I was lucky, mine where stuffed in my bag! :shock: After that he bought a set of generic catering knives and left them locked in the tutors office. I never got stopped in the three years I was there


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## BradNaylor (3 Feb 2010)

I'd never heard of Kin Knives

http://www.kinknives.com/2knives.htm

Does the name come from the exclamation uttered when you cut yourself;

" 'Kin knife!!!"

They look lovely. This is a slope I could find myself tottering over the edge of.


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## Smudger (3 Feb 2010)

Or when you lose it?

Wherza 'kin nife?

I used to love the old-style Kitchen Devils, but they changed the design into something crappy. But the original manufacturers in Sheffield still make them, and I've now got a couple of sets. Sharpen up a treat on the Tormek. Don't ask about the secondary bevel...


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## Chris Knight (3 Feb 2010)

BradNaylor":3meddp8m said:


> Does the name come from the exclamation uttered when you cut yourself;
> 
> " 'Kin knife!!!"



Since they are selling a Gordon Ramsay knife, the answer must be yes!


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## bugbear (3 Feb 2010)

frugal":3vp2c2g9 said:


> wizer":3vp2c2g9 said:
> 
> 
> > Why are we so obsessed with Japanese (serious question). Have we ever produced good cooks knives in the UK? Is there market for a UK 'artisan' to start producing (not me)?
> ...



There was an interim couple of decades where German (Solingen) knives were dominant amongst pros - Henckels and Wusthof.

The Japanese knives simply adopt a different compromise - the same as for the woodwork tools. The edges are made from hard (and in some cases exotic) steels. This gives super keen edges, and edge retention, at the cost of sharpening difficulty, and brittleness - which means extra care in use is needed compared to a softer European blade.

BugBear


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## bugbear (3 Feb 2010)

wizer":1578xtf0 said:


> Best I can do is a full collection of Global and a Sabatier Cooks Knife. I'm glad I managed to clamber up that slope, never to return (unless lady lottery comes my way).



I hope you don't have a full collection of Global - their range is HUGE!

BugBear


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## bugbear (3 Feb 2010)

Harbo":lcoh9623 said:


> They take a fantastic edge and stay sharp for a long time - something that I found my Tojiro did not - but they are stainless.
> 
> Rod



Which Tojiro did you buy? My (new toy!) Tojiro certainly holds an edge better than my Zwilling Henckels four star.

But there are certainly more esoteric knives than Tojiro DP.

BugBear


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## lurker (3 Feb 2010)

I've just looked at the Kin Knifes linky
Is it my failing memory or are they based in the same town/street as a well known woodwork tool shop??

As regards to British Knifes.
My mum gave me a carver, fork & steel that was a wedding present nearly 60 years ago.
The "plastic handles" disintegrated ages ago & the tools never used since. I've re-handled & they work great! the knife is 'kin sharp!!

So........ I think the answer is much the same as chisels - go to car boots find good (older the better) makes & fettle.

Regards sharpening: a butcher friend showed me how to use the steel, quite simple once you get the hang of it.


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## mickthetree (3 Feb 2010)

I have to say, I have always fancied owning a descent kitchen knife, but I have to settle for my £10 all metal stainless steel jobbie from Tescos for the past 4 years. Its been ok.

but I got one of thesefor christmas.

Re ground the bevel on my knife with a dished oilstone, then took it to the ozitech furi and I have never used a better knife.

a couple of swipes on the ozi every day and its stupidly sharp.

I love cooking and use my knife everyday on everything, from opening a plastic packet to slicing potatos wafer thin for potato dauphinoise.

I'm prepared to spend some good dosh on some ashley iles chisels or a nice clifton plane (at some point)  , as I do believe they take a better edge and make paring through a piece of oak easier. But I honestly cant see how a £600 knife can "cut" a piece of beef any better than my £10 one.

They do look nice though :wink:


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## Harbo (3 Feb 2010)

Bugbear - it's the 12cm SD which I keep for cutting tomatoes:

http://nipponkitchen.com/acatalog/SD_Range.html

It's not a bad knife but needs more sharpening than my basic Wantanabes.

I have 3 types of knives:
A mixture of Europeans in a block that any body can use.
A collection of Japanese that only I use.
A few custom made that nobody has used!
Sad really?  

I started into knives a few years ago including collecting bits to make them but with all the adverse knife publicity I went off the idea.

I did however order a Randall knife over 4 years ago - you fix the price when you order. They have a very long waiting list and will not increase production as it is a family firm. People used to buy and sell on at double their bought price?
Mines due for delivery in March - delayed from last December?

http://www.randallknives.com/

Rod


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## bugbear (3 Feb 2010)

Harbo":f9bshq98 said:


> Bugbear - it's the 12cm SD which I keep for cutting tomatoes:
> 
> http://nipponkitchen.com/acatalog/SD_Range.html
> 
> It's not a bad knife but needs more sharpening than my basic Wantanabes.



I think the Tojiro SD is the same as the DP except for the bevel.

Your Wantanabes should be anything but "basic" if the prices on that site and accurate (and fair).

edit; I've looked round the site; I see that some of his basic knives are at much more affordable prices.

BugBear


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## bugbear (3 Feb 2010)

lurker":2rencg55 said:


> I've just looked at the Kin Knifes linky
> Is it my failing memory or are they based in the same town/street as a well known woodwork tool shop??



Yep. Read here:

http://www.kinknives.com/2contact.htm

BugBear


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## bugbear (3 Feb 2010)

mickthetree":2vc5pher said:


> But I honestly cant see how a £600 knife can "cut" a piece of beef any better than my £10 one.



Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tErF8Lnlf3M

Note the lack of slicing motion to get the knife through - it's what called a push cut. Straight down.

Also note the lack of deflection in the tomato - the knife makes the cut without any noticable drag.

Impressive. IMHO.

BugBear


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## TrimTheKing (3 Feb 2010)

bugbear":3b24c00i said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tErF8Lnlf3M


Christ on a bike! I wouldn't be putting my fingers anywhere near the blade on that bad boy, even to wipe it clean!!!


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## lurker (3 Feb 2010)

Not THAT impressed!

Like all edged tools they are only as good as the person who last sharpened them.


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## Harbo (3 Feb 2010)

Bugbear - I see that they have gone up in price somewhat - $315 for the set of 8.

When I bought mine he used to sell them on Ebay and I do not think I spent more that £70? I gave some of them away as I already had some of the styles/types.

I also have one of these:






This but with Ebony handle and Damascus Blue Steel





This with Ebony handle (not the small one)





Bought these a few years ago and pretty sure I did not pay more than £200?

Jumped off the slope!

Rod


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## lurker (3 Feb 2010)

I reckon this is another "bloke thing" - I like good & sharp knives in the kitchen.

SWMBO just uses the first one at hand which is rarely the one for the job

Just to expand ( and go off topic :roll: )- I keep meaning to make some sort of drawer organiser for the decent knives.
Maybe a tray with slots - any ideas /examples??


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## mickthetree (3 Feb 2010)

yeah, fair doos, that is pretty blooming sharp!!

Lurker, this is the inside of our kitchen drawer.






Works a treat.


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## Racers (3 Feb 2010)

Hi,

I have one that is just two strips with slots cut in for the handle and blade, but when the wife slams the draw they slide forwards, so an end stop might be good, but then the knives might get stuck in it.


Pete


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## mickthetree (3 Feb 2010)

After seeing that chap slice through that tomato, I couldn't resist the temptationto show what my tesco special can do.


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## Vormulac (8 Feb 2010)

I use Global knives - they're the only decent quality ones I own, but of the many I have tried over the years I just find the balance and comfort of the handles to be better than anything else. Just my opinion, natch.


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## woodbloke (8 Feb 2010)

Cheap and nasty Sabatier's here...nothing fancy - Rob


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## big soft moose (8 Feb 2010)

for two years we've had an unbranded set that i picked up in homestore and more for a fiver

however these have now been given to my lil sis, and swimbo has spent over 200 notes on a set of scanpan kitchen knives.


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## dedee (8 Feb 2010)

It may be heresy but for slicing fruit and veg I prefer a serrated knife, a kitchen devil which I've had for at least 20 years - never sharpened.

For raw meat ( cutting into chunks) I often use kitchen scissors. For cooked meat a Sainbury's special does it for me.


Andy


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## paulm (8 Feb 2010)

I popped in here today as I was nearby for a meeting anyway.

Loads of beautiful stuff including those rather pricy handmade ones, but even better in real life than the pictures.

Didn't have the rather more modest Kai Shun chef's knife I was looking for though to add to the two sizes I already have, and I was lucky to escape with my wallet intact !!!

Cheers, Paul


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## Harbo (8 Feb 2010)

deedee - you must have strong hands?  


Rod


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## Harbo (8 Feb 2010)

deedee - you must have strong hands?  


Rod


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## Kalimna (9 Feb 2010)

Well, here are 5 of my yummy kitchen knives, from top :
Hiroo Itou gyuto with synth malachite handle
Doi takohiki ('tako' - octopus), single bevel.
Kamo suminigashi gyuto
Kamo suminigashi kamagat-usuba
Tanaka nakiri







The Itou blade was only bought last year as a slightly different way to cut our wedding cake 






Cheers,
Adam


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