# Salmen Master Oil Stone.



## swagman (6 Dec 2016)

Another stone I recently purchased from the U.K. (Most likely the last honing stone I am going to purchase.)





The top surface of the stone showed no obvious signs to its origin. 





But the underside was quite different, and the primary reason I chose to bid on this stone. The grain pattern indicated a natural stone, and not a man made stone. 





Flat sanding with 220, followed by 400 grit w & d, highlighted it as being a quick release slurry stone, of a soft to medium hardness. The swirly grain pattern was now much more obvious to see after a light spray of water.





The next photo shows the sedimentary layering within the stones side grain.






Additional information; 

Dimensions; 20.1 cm x 5.3 cm x 2.5 cm. (266 cm3)

Weight; 740 grams. 

Specific Gravity (SF) = 2.78

Conclusion; the stone appears to be a highly featured Scotch Dalmore Blue. Possibly better suited to water as a lubricant than thin oil. A quick release slurry stone, suggesting a fast cutting stone. A high range in SF, indicating a large % of fine particles within its make up.

I would rate this as a high value/ high quality honing stone, purchased at a remarkably cheap price.

Stewie;


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## adrspach (6 Dec 2016)

Your conclusion is right it is Dalmore Blue. 
The issue with Master Stones is that it is a brand and they were using any natural and manmade hones for it therefore unless you have it in your hand and can recognise it it is a lotery what you get.


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## D_W (6 Dec 2016)

I never would've guessed dalmore without seeing the top side, and after clean. Never used a dalmore. Are they slatey/sedimentary, or more like the novaculite-ish types? 4k?

I'm making those guesses because I don't know of many good stones less than 4k, and if they were a fine finisher, then they'd have been hunted down on the razor boards and made expensive.


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## ED65 (6 Dec 2016)

I know looks aren't important in a stone but this one sure is a beaut after cleaning!


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## essexalan (6 Dec 2016)

I did see that stone on ebay and noted the patterning but guessed it was a Dalmore so left it alone already having an example. I believe they are a sandstone which would make it sedimentary. I would rate mine at somewhat less than 4K, fast cutting and consistent grit size a good knife sharpener, more of a Dalmore Green than Blue! I do have a Salmen labelled stone in an identical box to the above and do not have the faintest idea what it is except it is a lot finer than a Dalmore. Interesting how many types of stone Salmen actually produced and they are always worth a punt on the off chance you pick up something valuable plus they are well made and of high quality.


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## adrspach (6 Dec 2016)

To Swagman- can you have a look on the paper box there should be stated if they had it as Fine/Medium/ Coarse or mixed.
To Allan bring it and we can have a chat but so fat have not seen WOA used. It is more likely to be Slate the same type as YL.


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## swagman (6 Dec 2016)

adrspach":1jonid48 said:


> To Swagman- can you have a look on the paper box there should be stated if they had it as Fine/Medium/ Coarse or mixed.
> To Allan bring it and we can have a chat but so fat have not seen WOA used. It is more likely to be Slate the same type as YL.



The following is what is stated on the outer cardboard box;

*Salmen Master Oil Stone*; 
Compares to the diamond for hardness & sharpness; 
Every stone guaranteed the worlds best quality;

*8" X 2" X 1".*
Use with thin oil. 

regards Stewie;


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

imo; a good quality natural sharpening stone is one that will shows signs of releasing a natural cutting slurry. Any stone that is within the higher range of hardness, that show no signs of releasing a cutting slurry is of limited value to the woodworker, and does require the use of an independent slurry stone to enhance its rate of cut. In other words, there can be clear differences between the needs of woodworker, and that of a straight razor user.

Stewie;


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## D_W (7 Dec 2016)

Washitas and arkansas stones are pretty useful, and don't release anything. 

Generally, sedimentary stones, I would agree with that statement, though. If they don't break down, they just load and stop or get dull and slow (the coarse ones). 

There is a second variable of steel hardness, though. Steel that's on the medium to soft side of vintage steel is very easy and compliant, even with stones that don't shed particles. Steel that's very hard requires stones that shed particles. 

Having used the turkey stone for a couple of weeks, it's a really interesting animal - it cuts faster than a sedimentary stone with oil, but if you spray it with water (even if it has oil on it), it instantly stops shedding particles, loads up and polishes to a bright polish.


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

DW; I was rather disappointed with the slow rate of cut on the j.Smith Ark I recently posted. I am going to try and degrease the oil from the stone and compare it to water as the only lubricant. 

Stewie;


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## D_W (7 Dec 2016)

Hi stewie, if that's a fine cutting stone, it certainly will need to be used according to its cutting speed (I can't remember how you grind, but if you do grind with a grinder, that indicating that you want to keep work bevels small and the final bevel freehanded for touch). 

I can use a stone like that entirely by itself with a good clean grind. With sedimentary stones, it's either something like the dalmore and then a jasper with something on it, or a chinese stone slurried. 

I think they're all good stones, they just have to be used how they prefer to be used.


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

DW; The process of cleansing the Arkansas stone of oil has started. Boiling hot water and 2 dishwasher power balls. 

Stewie;


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

After 1 hr, the dishwasher power balls have lost their effectiveness within the oil cleansing process. The following photo shows the oil residue that's already released from the stone. 





The process needs to be repeated again to further rid the stone of oil. The contaminated water has to be emptied out, cleaned out with dishwasher detergent, and refilled with boiling hot water, ready for 2 fresh dishwasher power balls. 





To slow down the loss of temperature within the water, seal the top of the container. Check again in 1 hrs time. Note any further loss of oil from the stone via the appearance of the water. Repeat a 3rd time if its deemed necessary. 

I will supply some later feedback on the results of testing the oil free Arkansas stone with water as the lubricant. 

Stewie;


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

An update on the oil cleansing process. I noticed that some oil had been trapped on the underside of the stone during the 2nd round. 
I opted for a 3rd round lasting only 30 min, this time making sure that I gently lifted the stone from side to side within its water bath to allow the loose oil to rise to the top of the water.

A few important comments to add; if the stone is not Novaculite within its structure, it may not survive without cracking after being submerged in boiling water. That being the case, it would be better to lower the temp of water. Also, make sure that the bottom of the stone be raised slightly above the bottom of the container to allow the water bath to better penetrate all sides of the stone. A couple of short brass or stainless steel rods would do the trick. Rinse the stone in fresh clean water and dry at the end of the cleansing process. 

The following photos shows the stones colour change after completing the oil cleansing process. 

After the 1st bath; 




After the 3rd and final bath;




Stewie;


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## adrspach (7 Dec 2016)

Some people use for this slow cooker. However beware to cook it in well ventilated place or outside as the fumes in higher temperatures are not that healthy.

As with the slurry there is something what we did not agree on with Henk.
In my opinion there are 2 ways of abrasion one is with slurry when the particles roll and chip away the steel and without slury when the surface of the stone looks like full of needles/cutting facetes like a file which scrathes away steel once those needles/facetes are burnished/flatened/blunt they slow down but give higher polish. However there are also hones which binder of which is able to release damaged surface crystals and have fresh needles ready for cutting.


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## essexalan (7 Dec 2016)

Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous. Never seen nor had the need to do this to a Washita just dressing the stone improves it's cutting ability unless you use too fine a lapping grit.

As I understand it slurry consists of binder plus abrasive particles and metal particles removed/released by the abrasive action, Washita and Ark stones are almost solid abrasive tightly bound together plus they are not very porous. They do not like releasing particles. You can let the slurry dry out a bit which has the effect of clogging the stone to a degree which seems to give a finer finish I have only done this using water as a lube and seems to be the opposite of what the razor boys find.


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## bugbear (7 Dec 2016)

essexalan":2m6yuhvk said:


> Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous. Never seen nor had the need to do this to a Washita just dressing the stone improves it's cutting ability unless you use too fine a lapping grit.
> 
> As I understand it slurry consists of binder plus abrasive particles and metal particles removed/released by the abrasive action, Washita and Ark stones are almost solid abrasive tightly bound together plus they are not very porous. They do not like releasing particles. You can let the slurry dry out a bit which has the effect of clogging the stone to a degree which seems to give a finer finish I have only done this using water as a lube and seems to be the opposite of what the razor boys find.



Given the longevity and/or resistance to wear of a true arkansas, the rate of particle release is extraordinarily low.

In the sense that my waterstones (or even Silk Stone) _does_ make a slurry, my arkansas and washita _don't_.

BugBear


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

> Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous.



Why would you do that. !!!!


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## bugbear (7 Dec 2016)

swagman":ay895pwo said:


> > Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you do that. !!!!



Sometimes a stone is found completely glazed over with an evil combination of hardened/polymerised oil. and/or swarf and dirt.

This glaze render the stone u/s.

BugBear


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

bugbear":1x12epuv said:


> swagman":1x12epuv said:
> 
> 
> > > Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous.
> ...



So the answer is to remove the manufacturers oil preload by soaking it in bio detergent. Interesting.


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## ED65 (7 Dec 2016)

swagman":3qjdqm94 said:


> Why would you do that. !!!!


It's an alternative (very well-established) way of cleaning heavily gunked up stones. Ditto boiling in water with washing soda, spraying with oven cleaner, soaking in a solvent (gasoline, kerosene, white spirit and a few others) and soaking in a caustic soda solution.

With natural stones that have no factory impregnation these methods make absolutely no difference to the stone to abrading off the surface when dressing it flat. Plus they retain the original surface(s) if that's desired and you don't have to use much elbow grease.


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## ED65 (7 Dec 2016)

essexalan":14zqejvk said:


> Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous.


You know you can replenish that?


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

> It's an alternative (very well-established) way of cleaning heavily gunked up stones. Ditto boiling in water with washing soda, spraying with oven cleaner, soaking in a solvent (gasoline, kerosene, white spirit and a few others) and soaking in a caustic soda solution.



Edge; we are talking about a man made Norton Oilstone, thats pre loaded with oil by the manufacture for very good reasons. If you then leech the oil out, it will render the stone over porous, beyond its capacity to hold any surface oil. If that's the well established method of resolving a gunked up and loaded Norton Oil Stones, go for it. It wont have any impact on the way I maintain my Norton Stones.


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## essexalan (7 Dec 2016)

ED65":1b6z17bu said:


> essexalan":1b6z17bu said:
> 
> 
> > Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous.
> ...



The secret is not to boil the stone so long that it removes whatever Norton have loaded the stone with, something I never quite achieved. Having just turned a grey Cretan stone in to black Turkey stone using oil and heat then I suppose I could use a similar procedure on a Norton stone but kindly clue me do.


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## bugbear (7 Dec 2016)

essexalan":14k5vb6e said:


> ED65":14k5vb6e said:
> 
> 
> > essexalan":14k5vb6e said:
> ...



IIRC Norton use a vacuum impregnation process, and heated petroleum jelly (steady now  ).

BugBear


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## essexalan (7 Dec 2016)

Definitely not for the amateur then! Well none of mine need doing anyway and most of the naturals work just fine with water or cutting fluid. Keep them clean and you will never have the problem. Hmmm heated petroleum jelly ;0)


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## ED65 (7 Dec 2016)

swagman":2zecib3h said:


> It wont have any impact on the way I maintain my Norton Stones.


It wasn't intended to Stewie, just giving out the info. I know you like to have your stones dead flat so your prep will neatly rid you of any loaded surface while you achieve that.

But for someone who doesn't want to do that the other methods are all viable ways of cleaning a stone, even a synthetic. With care none will remove _all _the pre-loading, but any of them do have that potential if the stone is left for too long (in one go or in stages).

That potential shouldn't worry anyone though, give how incredibly easy it is to oil-load a stone. From the instructions that came with Carborundums back in their early days:



> Use a thin clear oil. If stone cuts too rapidly, temper by soaking the stone in a pan of hot Vaseline, filling the pores of the stone. For cleaning stone wash with kerosene.


I've also read of using a solution of petroleum jelly and white spirit (or any other suitable solvent) and soaking the stone in it until it won't absorb any more. The spirit carries the jelly into the stone, after it evaporates it leaves it behind.


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

BB; I have spoken with Saint-Gobain Abrasives, manufacturer of Norton Stones, back in Oct 2016 on this very subject, and they do not use petroleum jelly as part of their process. That came from their bonding expert, Rao Jagannath.

_Hi Stewart,
Thanks for your enquiry, I am passing it on to our bonded expert Rao who will be able to give you sound advice.

Rao,
Stewart's enquiry below is out of my league, can you please guide him in the right direction with the wheels below.
Kind regards,
David Grech
State Manager
Saint-Gobain Abrasives
0407179282_


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## ED65 (7 Dec 2016)

Whether Norton use petroleum jelly or some proprietary compound is interesting as far as it goes, but on a practical front what matters surely is that we _can _use petroleum jelly to get the same effect?


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## swagman (7 Dec 2016)

ED65":dzrln72x said:


> Whether Norton use petroleum jelly or some proprietary compound is interesting as far as it goes, but on a practical front what matters surely is that we _can _use petroleum jelly to get the same effect?



Then test your theory using Petroleum Jelly, and report back your findings.

Stewie;


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## swagman (8 Dec 2016)

As requested; I am forwarding the feedback after testing the Arkansas stone with water as the only lubricant. The 1st observation to note was that after spraying the top surface of the stone with water, the water did not soak within the stone, but maintained a unified float of film. That indicates to me that the stone is not porous by nature, but more tightly bound within its make up. 

The 2nd observation to make is that when the stone surface was being worked by the chisel, the sound being given off was much deeper in tone to that experienced when oil was used as lubricant. A much more grittier sound. One could feel the chisels edge being worked in closer contact with the grain structure of the stone, versus having a float of oil interfere between the 2 surfaces. 

The time taken to form an appreciable secondary bevel imo was 1/2 that compared to using oil, but apologies need to be made, as I did nor record the exact time difference. The sheen formed on the secondary bevel, to my eyes, looked no different to that being worked on oil, but one would expect it to be slightly lower. 

The level of sharpness straight from the stone more than matched my requirements within woodworking, as testament by the paper test shown within the 2 following photo's. 

Conclusion; as a once only test, I see no valid reason to return to using oil on this Arkansas stone. If any issues later arise on the question of water versus oil in preventing the stones surface from glazing over or clogging up, that would be dealt with during the normal practice of resurfacing during periodical stone flattening.

All attempts have been made to remain impartial within my findings.

Hopefully you found the above mentioned topic of some interest. If you decide to de-oil any of your sharpening stones in the future, make sure they are not a man-made Norton Crystolon/Carborundum, as this will likely destroy the manufacturers oil pre-fill. 

On to the photo's.

regards Stewie;


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## essexalan (8 Dec 2016)

Personally I would be very careful mixing petroleum jelly with solvents or you may end up inventing napalm. Some of the SiC stones produced had no pre load applied.
Interesting experiment Stewie and I am glad it has worked out well. My limited experience with using Washita or Ark stones indicates that a fine lubricant is better, GT85 in my case, works better for me than the heavier lubes and keeps the stone pretty clean but then I am far more used to waterstones. It would have been interesting to repeat your SG measurements after the stone was cleaned and dried out but then removing all traces of oil contamination is probably impossible so the results would have remained inconclusive.


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## swagman (8 Dec 2016)

Thanks Essex; appreciate the feedback. Your right about some sic stones being oil free. They are generally in higher demand by the food preparation industry.

Stewie;


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## swagman (8 Dec 2016)

As mentioned previously, I have no intention of buying more honing stones. So that in itself will represent the end of my threads on nat stones. (you can breath easy now gents). 

I still have a side hinge sharpening box to make for the Scotch Dalmore Blue. That's a few weeks away from completing, and will represent the last time I post a thread dedicated to making a sharpening stone box.. 

Stewie;


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## ED65 (8 Dec 2016)

swagman":2xesv0jm said:


> Then test your theory using Petroleum Jelly, and report back your findings.


You know this isn't my theory Stewie. And not to beat about the bush: it's not like you don't already know that treating a porous stone with Vaseline/petroleum jelly does work.

So I'm genuinely confused as to why you'd be casting doubt on it.


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## D_W (8 Dec 2016)

Resurfacing will keep it cutting, no need to worry about that. I have never favored water on oilstones, figuring that if you want them to cut fast, slurrying them with a coarse diamond hone will do that. 

However, there are a lot of people on the razor boards who have sent me messages preferring water or glycerin or ballistol or something that is not oil-based, so I'm sure it's just a matter of opinion.

(I do like that on the turkish oilstones, it seems to go in the opposite direction - someone had used the turk with water only for a while and it was like honing on glass and it put a bright mirror polish on everything. Put a little bit of oil or WD-40 on it, and then it starts releasing grit everywhere. Wipe it off and spray it with water again and it goes right back to really high polish with really slow cut speed.)


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## ED65 (8 Dec 2016)

D_W":3tgcupgm said:


> (I do like that on the turkish oilstones, it seems to go in the opposite direction - someone had used the turk with water only for a while and it was like honing on glass and it put a bright mirror polish on everything. Put a little bit of oil or WD-40 on it, and then it starts releasing grit everywhere. Wipe it off and spray it with water again and it goes right back to really high polish with really slow cut speed.)


Thanks for that detail, I was going to ask if it was always the other way. I've read many times of the usual difference, and tried water on three or four stones and just as Stewie reported above the character of the cutting was noticeably grittier and it sounded much coarser too. 

I was very surprised at how much difference there was on two finer ones as I was comparing to white spirit, not a proper oil.


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## D_W (8 Dec 2016)

ED65":dt11lqyn said:


> D_W":dt11lqyn said:
> 
> 
> > (I do like that on the turkish oilstones, it seems to go in the opposite direction - someone had used the turk with water only for a while and it was like honing on glass and it put a bright mirror polish on everything. Put a little bit of oil or WD-40 on it, and then it starts releasing grit everywhere. Wipe it off and spray it with water again and it goes right back to really high polish with really slow cut speed.)
> ...



I think a proper mineral oil would result in even slower cutting than white spirit. My oilstones that I've gotten new and tried with water have gotten "tired" much more quickly than they do with oil, but someone scuffing the surface on a regular basis wouldn't care about that. I like the feel of oil a little better and got the sense that I have a little bit more control over the level of the finish with oil. WD40 is common here in gallons, and it is what I use on oilstones, except those in a norton tri hone contraption. 

I do like a mineral oil on coarse stones that need to have loose floating swarf, as well as on fine stones when honing a razor. I don't know if it makes any difference on the latter, but it gives the perception of more control.


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## AJB Temple (8 Dec 2016)

Interesting thread. Most of the stone performance opinions expressed here are somewhat subjective. It would be quite interesting to see a microscope shot of the honed edges.


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## swagman (8 Dec 2016)

I posted the following on another forum site;


Hi Kees; there's a common statement commonly referred too by users of honing stones; if you start using oil on a stone, you should continue using oil on that stone. There is relevance within that statement to the fact that, if you wanted to change over to water, you would 1st need to leech the stone of existing oil. But there is an opposite argument that can be put forth, that being, the stone may actually perform better with water.

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone. I can only think of 1 from my own experience, and that would be some of the darker Hindostans. Due to their high properties within Iron Oxide, the use of water would turn the stones surface to a Rust Oxide, which is something most would likely want to avoid, as a measure to protect the integrity of the stone itself, and the tool being worked.

Now, returning to the discussion on Ark Stones. As you mentioned from your own experience, Arks are more than likely slow cutters, primarily as they fail to release any cutting slurry to assist to rate of cut. I don't have a great deal of experience with Arks or Wahita, but from my experience with other nat stones oil as a lubricant can be used to slow the rate of cut within any given nat stone due to the inherent viscous film it generates between the 2 surfaces being worked. This Ark stone that was the basis behind me started this thread, is a very slow cutting stone, unsuitable for my needs as a woodworker. I had 2 choices available, 1 was to put the stone aside and let it gather dust through lack of use, or 2, leech the stone of existing oil and trial it with water as the surface lubricant. As you have been following this thread, you would know that I went ahead with leaching the stone of oil, and tested this Ark with water. There was a notable improvement in the cutting performance of this stone, to the level that will see its further within fine honing my woodworking chisels and irons.

I have learnt a great deal from this journey, and hopefully by sharing that experience with other forum members, they will have gained a similar experience.

Appreciate your feedback Kees.

I was hoping for a bit more feedback from other forum members, but that's okay.

regards Stewie;


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## swagman (8 Dec 2016)

AJB Temple":mgrcwm15 said:


> Interesting thread. Most of the stone performance opinions expressed here are somewhat subjective. It would be quite interesting to see a microscope shot of the honed edges.



AJB; I don't have the right gear to forward what you are requesting. The best I could do was a provide evidence of a paper test to show the chisels cutting edge for sharpness. Are my findings to be construed as subjective. I tried to keep an open mind when comparing the stones cut with oil, then water., If that's not good enough, then ignore my findings, and do your own independent tests and forward the results to the forum. I for one would be interested in comparing the 2 findings. 

regards Stewie;


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## MIGNAL (9 Dec 2016)

The soft Arkansas that I have cuts much slower with water. In fact as DW described, initially it cuts quite well with water but after half a dozen strokes or so it seems to clog. That's your lot. You get very little action after that. Oil works much better on my example.


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## bugbear (9 Dec 2016)

swagman":2x2tdtgt said:


> I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone.



There may be a jargon/communication problem. To avoid it: what is your definition of "oil stone" (and/or "true oil stone") ?

BugBear


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## swagman (9 Dec 2016)

bugbear":j8kcpa4m said:


> swagman":j8kcpa4m said:
> 
> 
> > I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone.
> ...



What a wonderful question BB; since I starting purchasing different types of 2nd hand natural stones from the uk, I found it astonishing that nearly all of these stones have been used long term with oil. Why in the u.k. What was the impetus to not use water. Was it based on concerns with rust, the cooler wetter climate, or long held tradition. I honestly have no idea. 

Take for example the condition I received the following Welsh Idwall Grecian Hone. Caked in years of oil use, inhibiting its capacity to function effectively. And why would you choose to use oil in the 1st place with this type of stone. 





And here is the same stone after being cleaned up. 





And here is the same stone being used today to hone a spokeshave blade. Its now a water stone. A quick wipe down with a damp rag, and the stone surface is ready for use next time its needed. 





And look at the condition of the Ark stone when I received it. Covered in years of oil use. No wonder is was a terribly slow cutter..





The same Ark after being leeched of old oil and now a dedicated to water stone.





And the packaging on this Salmen U.K stone. It states USE WITH FINE OIL. 





Why would you use oil on a quality Scotch Dalmore Blue.





Stewie;


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## bugbear (9 Dec 2016)

swagman":2u8v4w9z said:


> bugbear":2u8v4w9z said:
> 
> 
> > swagman":2u8v4w9z said:
> ...



OK; you didn't directly answer my question. But from what you did say, may I infer that your definition of "oil stone" is:
_honing stone whose best performance is given when used with oil as a lubricant_
and "true oil stone" is merely a synonym, but with extra emphasis?

BugBear


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## AndyT (9 Dec 2016)

Excuse me butting in here, but I think there was another lubricant in widespread use, more convenient than oil or water. 

Spit!

I wonder what the cumulative effect of a lifetime of spit on a stone looks like?
Would it be different if the spit was from a heavy smoker?

Another topic for research! :wink:


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## swagman (9 Dec 2016)

> OK; you didn't directly answer my question.



BB; if you refer back to my post to Kees, I did answer that question. You just didn't take the time to read it,. 



> I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone. I can only think of 1 from my own experience, and that would be some of the darker Hindostans. Due to their high properties within Iron Oxide, the use of water would turn the stones surface to a Rust Oxide, which is something most would likely want to avoid, as a measure to protect the integrity of the stone itself, and the tool being worked.


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## D_W (9 Dec 2016)

Similar to water - the effect - but with a little bit of long term residue, and eventually a stinky stone.


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## swagman (9 Dec 2016)

AndyT":6fcfmel5 said:


> Excuse me butting in here, but I think there was another lubricant in widespread use, more convenient than oil or water.
> 
> Spit!
> 
> ...



Andy; I would hate think of the cumulative effect of sharing that same stone with others.,

Stewie; #-o


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## D_W (9 Dec 2016)

I don't understand the desire to call ark/washita stones "not true oilstones". Not trying to pick a fight, but this again goes back to:
* the historical basis on how these stones were used (it's extensive, and was mostly done by professionals)
* what the manufacturer of the stones recommended - they'd have been in the feedback loop for these stones, and if water was better than oil, they certainly would've learned that from their customers

Certainly, you can use water on oilstones. You can use oil on a lot of waterstones, too. In each case, the way the stone works will change, and if you prefer it, then that's the way you should go. 

It doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of very purposefully created precedent otherwise, though.


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## bugbear (9 Dec 2016)

swagman":25rzscd7 said:


> > OK; you didn't directly answer my question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read that; I then re-read it carefully; I then asked my question.

But I'll try to be helpful'; every body loves multiple choice!

An oil stone is:

1) A stone that gives its _best_ results when used with oil as a lubricant
2) A stone that _only_ gives useful results when used with oil as a lubricant
3) A stone that is _damaged_ when used with any thing BUT oil as a lubricant
4) other (please state)
5) (ADDED) A stone that is _most commonly_ used with oil as a lubricant

 BugBear


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## CStanford (9 Dec 2016)

If the lubricant is too thin a natural stone (Washita and finer) are going to glaze and get plugged. Synthetics will too at a point. The occasional weekend woodworker may never notice this but somebody who hones tools five or six days a week surely will. I guarantee it. 

The multiple choice question leaves out the most important element -- that of time and amount of usage. Use an oil no thinner than 3 in 1. I've learned it the hard way. The lubricant has to be viscous enough to hold the metal swarf in suspension for more than just a few moments. In the fullness of time you'll get better performance using oil on what have traditionally been called "oilstones."


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## Corneel (9 Dec 2016)

That's a good explanation Charles. I finally understand a little what's going on with the various fluids.

Of course you should wipe the stone clean after use and use fresh oil the next time. Otherwise it is no wonder the stone gets filthy.


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## D_W (9 Dec 2016)

CStanford":nx7g2qyn said:


> If the lubricant is too thin a natural stone (Washita and finer) are going to glaze and get plugged. Synthetics will too at a point. The occasional weekend woodworker may never notice this but somebody who hones tools five or six days a week surely will. I guarantee it.
> 
> The multiple choice question leaves out the most important element -- that of time and amount of usage. Use an oil no thinner than 3 in 1. I've learned it the hard way. The lubricant has to be viscous enough to hold the metal swarf in suspension for more than just a few moments. In the fullness of time you'll get better performance using oil on what have traditionally been called "oilstones."



On coarse stones, that's true. On something finer, it doesn't matter too much (WD 40 will work on a broken in washita or a trans or black stone, but it's not that good for use on a fresh soft stone, and definitely not on an india stone or crystolon). 

There's also the issue of habits. Some of the stone sellers recommend oiling the stone and then wiping of most of the excess, and in that case, a large flat iron will still work well on a fine stone. If the stone is covered with a layer of "loose" oil, though, like medium mineral oil, working the back of something can be an exercise in suspending metal over a layer of oil (nothing is occurring for the most part). 

But it shouldn't even be difficult enough for us to have to discuss it at all. If it's not working well, try something else until it is. I don't believe there would've been much stone flattening or "surface conditioning" by a professional user 200 years ago. I don't know what they'd have had available for oil, though, either - something fish or whale related?


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## MIGNAL (9 Dec 2016)

Probably many types of non drying oils, anything will do, especially if thinned with pure turps. I use mineral oil with a touch of turps added, works fine on the Arkansas. I use water on my scotch hone, no slurry stone.


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## CStanford (9 Dec 2016)

I used WD 40 on a Norton surgical black Ark for a long while and it has turned out to be a HUGE mistake. You can see the plugged grain under a glancing light and it hardly cuts at all now. I urge anybody using natural Arkansas stones of any kind to not use a water-thin lubricant. Use something at least as viscous at 3 in 1 or whatever brand name the typical household oil is sold under in your country. I wish I'd just kept using the oil Norton sells to be honest. I did at first.


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## D_W (9 Dec 2016)

CStanford":1pvkllqi said:


> I used WD 40 on a Norton surgical black Ark for a long while and it has turned out to be a HUGE mistake. You can see the plugged grain under a glancing light and it hardly cuts at all any longer. I urge anybody using natural Arkansas stones of any kind to not use a water-thin lubricant. Use something at least as viscous at 3 in 1 or whatever brand name the typical household oil is sold under in your country. I wish I'd just kept using the oil Norton sells to be honest. I did at first.



I haven't had similar experience, though I have both (as in the norton branded oil). And a jug of light mineral oil from kitchen supply (same thing as the norton oil). 

I never have appreciated the norton or light mineral oils on a black or trans stone, but it's fantastic stuff in an IM 313. I have such little appreciation for a very fine stone with that oil that I sold the norton trans out of the IM 313 that I have and replaced it with a slightly coarser medium fineness stone from Dan's. (the fact that you can't use an IM 313 without gobs of oil ending up on the stones doesn't help, either - maybe you're using less oil). 

I've got one trans and one black stone, and neither has stopped cutting as a result of using WD 40. The black stone, it would be hard to tell if there was swarf left in the pores because of the color, but the trans stone tells you pretty easily and quickly whether or not there's anything clogging it. If there is, you can see it, but it wipes off clean and clear with WD 40.

Possible maybe that some of the WD40 dried on your stone leaving behind the film that it leaves behind?


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## CStanford (9 Dec 2016)

One feels like they need something thinner on a black Ark. I agree. I did too. In the end, however, it's a Faustian bargain.


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## memzey (9 Dec 2016)

I always use baby oil. Not for any reason other than we had a load left over after my youngest outgrew the need for it and found that it worked well so I stuck with it. Pretty cheap and easily available too.


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## memzey (9 Dec 2016)

Just to add: I'm using that on a lillywhite washita and surgical black Ark. I find it does work well and neither stone gets clogged.


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## CStanford (9 Dec 2016)

Yep, it's about the same viscosity as Norton's honing oil maybe a little thinner but not so much so as to fail to prevent glazing and plugging.


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## MIGNAL (9 Dec 2016)

Baby oil is mineral oil, perhaps with a scent. What's good for baby must be good for your stones.


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## memzey (9 Dec 2016)

Yes I knew it was mineral oil but the best thing about it is it's cheap and readily available. You can get half a litre at Wilko for about a quid and most pound shops have it too. Seeing as it's not going on my little princess I don't suppose it needs to be a snazzy brand!


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## CStanford (9 Dec 2016)

Yes, mineral oil like Norton stuff. Norton's is completely food safe (no perfumes) so it's suitable in a culinary environment as well.


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## D_W (9 Dec 2016)

It's interesting that even the 100% mineral oils have a different feel. I got norton oil because it came with my IM 313, but if bought separately, it cost the same for a pint as a gallon of 100% food grade mineral oil cost from a commercial kitchen supply place. 

The viscosity is almost identical between the two, but the stuff from the kitchen supply shop is more slick feeling. Both of them are 100% oil, edible and odorless.

I guess there's no guarantee that the next norton can oil wouldn't feel different, but I thought it was interesting. Little practical difference, but there's enough there to notice.


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## CStanford (9 Dec 2016)

Norton is supposedly "highly refined' (whatever that means) and until I read your post I thought it was bunk. Maybe extra steps, assuming there are some, are efficacious in that they remove some of the 'slickness' you noted, and give a stone more bite while still holding the swarf in suspension is a fairly viscous liquid. In other words, the stuff might have been worth the extra money all along. Sure wish I'd kept using it.


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## DennisCA (10 Jan 2017)

Has anyone used ballistol for oil stones? I also have mineral oil so there's always that, I think they are similar in viscosity.


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## DennisCA (10 Jan 2017)

This guy's selling it so take with a pinch of salt, but it seems suitable for the task.
https://www.ragweedforge.com/SharpeningCatalog.html



> This has to be the original snake oil. At the turn of the last century the Kaiser's Wehrmacht put out bids for a military multi-purpose oil. It was to clean and lubricate firearms and other machinery, prevent rust, dissolve residue from corrosive primers, nitro powder and black powder, remove copper, zinc and lead fouling from rifle bores, preserve both wood and leather, prevent mold and mildew, and be suitable for treating minor wounds and abrasions on the soldiers themselves. By all accounts Ballistol met the requirements, and then some. It was adopted by the German military in 1905 and served until 1945. It’s still in use by the German Special Forces, as well as the US Coast Guard and some of the Navy Seal teams. Of course a multitude of European hunters and other sportsmen have used it for generations..
> 
> Ballistol is slightly alkaline, so it neutralizes the amino acids in human sweat. It emulsifies with water, so it will protect wet surfaces as well as dry surfaces. The mixture prevents rust, and when it dries it leaves a protective film. As a lubricant it never thickens or gums up. Mixed half and half with water it makes a black powder cleaner. Mixed 1:20 with water it’s a cutting fluid. On unfinished wood surfaces it helps seal and protect the wood, as well as bringing out the beauty of the grain. It restores old oil finished surfaces. It softens old dried leather and protects from mold and mildew. (Warning; it darkens light leather, and is not for use on suede.)
> 
> ...


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## D_W (11 Jan 2017)

DennisCA":19zkrs0k said:


> Has anyone used ballistol for oil stones? I also have mineral oil so there's always that, I think they are similar in viscosity.



Ballistol is relatively popular with razor guys, never tried it but never heard anyone with something bad to say about it. The new internet razoring thing (last 15 years) comes with a fascination of keeping stones oil free, and at one point, you could get a ban on some forums for pointing out that some coticules said "can be used with water or oil". 

Anyway, give the ballistol a try if you want to be able to remove it easily, vs oiling a stone with mineral oil.


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## DennisCA (11 Jan 2017)

Good to know since I have ballistol from before (used it for cleaning black powder residue and general cleaning / lubrication, another hobby), I don't really see why people want oil free oil stones though, something I have missed. I saw a video with a guy using olive oil on his arkansas stones, said he had to soak it once or twice a year in cleaning fluid to get it out since it goes rancid. Don't really understand why he used olive oil.


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