# High or Low: A beginner's conundrum...and other questions...



## Chlad (27 Apr 2018)

Hi all. New to the forum and to woodworking in general. Has been a long time on my wishlist and finally I have the time and money to pursue it. I am particularly attracted to figured and patterned hard woods and exotic woods. I dont intend to get in the business of producing wood creations to make a profit out of. I rather intend to pursue the hobby for my personal satisfaction and to hopefully create objects for my family home. Using hand planes is the first skill I intend to build on. I am not against using powered machines but in the case of planing I think it gives more satisfaction and is quite therapeutic. 

I started by buying Chirs Schwartz's Handplane Essential book. I'm aware of the fact that this book evoques different sentiments in different people and I'm glad to see that both parties agree that the book is OK for beginners. Any recommendations in respect to sources (books or online) that are beneficial to beginners?

Now, on the main point: choosing my first plane: from what I have read so far I'm fairly convinced that a no62 jack will be good as my first one. That thought is especially reinforced by the fact that I have two lovely large boards that i need to get smooth and shiny. One is a slab of brown oak (2700x400x70mm) with one live edge and the other is a slab of spalted beech (2000x600x50mm) with one live edge. I understand that a 7 will probably be more suited to the job but I dont want to invest on a plane which I might not have much use for in the future. I believe that a no62 would do the job with a bit more patience. 

The bit which is rather confusing is the debate about high angle or low angle (or should I say BD or BU). I am clear in theory regarding the criticisms of the low angle planes but sometimes they are difficult to translate for someone with no experience. I am also conscious that sharpening of the blade is one of the most important contributors to being sucessful with a hand plane. And it is porbably for this reason that it has stuck in my mind the fact that the blads of BU planes are thick and diffcult to sharpen especially when it comes to cambering them. On the other hand I keep reading on several places and seeing reviews of no62 LA jack (the Lie Nielsen in particular) that sing praises to how great they are, especially for beginners like me. 

So I feel that a combination of the various factors: size (no62), LN brand (you get what you pay for), simplicity of the LA and versatility speak quite highly in favour of this plane. Am I on the right path? Or will the difficulties of sharpening its thick blade(s) trump the benefits?

Any advice and guidance would be very much appreciated. But please dont confuse me too much with advice about things such as winding sticks and so on :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Silly_Billy (27 Apr 2018)

Is there anyway you can try before you buy? I think a lot of this comes down to personal preference. 

If you’re buying a LN, then I imagine a 5, 5½ or a low angle jack would all be excellent. (I’m also a beginner and not lucky enough to own a LN, but there are very knowledgeable people here who can comment from experience.)

Perhaps you should invest less money until you know what you like. A Quangsheng plane from Workshop Heaven or a used Stanley/Record could be good. I’ve got a Quangsheng and find it hard to fault. Used LN, Veritas and Clifton planes come up on eBay too. You could put any money saved towards a course or instructional DVDs


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## Andy Kev. (27 Apr 2018)

For books and DVDs, have a look at the Hand Tool Review links above. The first book I would recommend is The Essential Woodworker by Robert Wearing and if you can afford it, the four volumes of The Woodworker as a sort of all in one reference library.

Three internet sources also spring to mind: The English Woodworker which has mostly free content and some projects which you pay to sign up for. All are excellent. There is also Treebangham's youtube channel (also reviewed above) which is an excellent step by step guide to specific projects. Derek Cohen's site "In The Woodshop" is also a valuable source of Information, in particular his reviews of tools.

If you can find your time to wade through all that, there is little more you will need in way of tuition material. If, however, you can find time to attend real life tuition, your rate of progress will be that much quicker.

As for tool recommendations ... you'll hear a million different views. I'd recommend the Veritas low angle jack plane as the first one to get. Not only is it of the highest quality but I found as a beginner that I could _see_ how it worked and once I'd got used to it I was in a better position to move to a Bailey style plane. That recommendation would not necessarily apply if you know somebody who can show you by example how to use the various kinds of plane but if you're working on your own, as I was, then I think an LA Jack is the place to start. But more experienced people will come along with other recommendations. In the end you have to weigh all the advice up and decide for yourself.

PS Once you have got your new plane, don't take it straight to your live oak or spalted beech. Practice on wood which behaves itself, while at the same time learning sharpening. After a while - and it will be a short while - you'll know when you're ready to muck about with the more difficult stuff.


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## nabs (27 Apr 2018)

You are unlikely to get anyone who disagrees that a jack plane is a good size for your first plane.

for BU / BD there is no consensus - both work and people just have preferences. Both camps will say their preference is more versatile but I am afraid that discussion has elements of the confusing 'winding sticks' type argument you hope to avoid .

IMO The main advantage for BD is - because they have been the standard choice in metal bench planes for 100+ years - there are lots of used ones about so you can get them very cheaply. The downside is you have to learn to set them up(not difficult but a bit of a distraction if you want to get on and start preparing your boards). 

If you have the cash, getting a posh plane as your first one is a good idea as you can be confident it will work right away. This is what I'd have done if I were starting again (I am only recently in the same position as you). Personally I'd have got a BD plane - I am a slave to tradition though!


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2018)

Best beginner's plane would be an old 5 1/2, or of only small stuff then a 5. Modern BU planes are just a fashion trend (except for little block planes which are BU to make them more compact for one handed use).
NB A common beginners mistake is to think in terms of PAR; don't plane your large boards until you've cut them down to component size for the finished product, whatever it is.


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## Andy Kev. (27 Apr 2018)

Jacob":z93zl1rn said:


> Best beginner's plane would be an old 5 1/2, or of only small stuff then a 5. Modern BU planes are just a fashion trend (except for little block planes which are BU to make them more compact for one handed use).
> NB A common beginners mistake is to think in terms of PAR; don't plane your large boards until you've cut them down to component size for the finished product, whatever it is.


I know you're greatly experienced and that most of what you say makes sense and IMO you don't deserve the flak you attract. However, I feel that by now I have enough experience to refute your assertion that "Modern BU planes are just a fashion trend ..." They are in fact highly effective, high precision instruments for getting wood into the state you want it to be.* No-one would maintain that they are the only way of achieving that and indeed under certain circumstances one can be better served by a BD plane but in terms of general use they are an equal alternative to BD with the added advantage of being mechanically simpler.

The part of your statement which I have quoted is, I contest, simply not true and I reckon you know that. A comparison of the two in use involving a very fair minded discussion of them is provided by The Renaissance Woodworker on his website. If I can find the link, I'll add it to this. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnrOtbnUaVg He deals with block planes, smoothers and jacks. The discussion of the Jacks starts at about 7:15 mins.

*More likely to be the case if you buy from the better manufacturers like Veritas or LN. Shame that Clifton doesn't do a BU Jack.


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## PAC1 (27 Apr 2018)

Wow. You want to buy your first plane and then use it to hand finish two live edge tops. One brown oak the other beech. If you have never used a plane before (an assumption based on “first plane”) then can I suggest you learn to plane and sharpen a plane before you start worrying about the precise angle of a bevel. When you have these skills you will know what to do. When you can set up and use a No 4 or No 5 properly considering cap iron position, straight or curving a blade a truly sharp blade etc etc you may find that a No 4, 5 or 5.5 will do the job perfectly well.
A No 62 is a great plane but an unusual and expensive one to learn to plane with.


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## nabs (27 Apr 2018)

see what I meant Chlad? it is a minefield and you are not going to get any consistent advice. My guess is if you did a survey the least controversial choice - at least on this forum - would be a BD plane, but if you joined another forum you might get a different answer. 
You just have to make a choice and get practicing!


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## ED65 (27 Apr 2018)

Just to warn you, this subject isn't just a big ol' can o' worms it's likely to be a hornet's nest of conflicting opinion.



Chlad":eqie8x3m said:


> Any recommendations in respect to sources (books or online) that are beneficial to beginners?


On planes specifically "The Handplane Book" by Garrett Hack is an obvious first suggestion but I would recommend that you try to read everything published you can lay your hands on. From early 19th-century handbooks through the great period of woodwork publishing in the middle of the 20th and yes, even to books of more recent vintage, there's something to be gained from almost all of it. Even if it's only to get a perspective on traditional practice and to see what areas are now generally agreed upon – rightly or wrongly.



Chlad":eqie8x3m said:


> Now, on the main point: choosing my first plane...


For the general question I'd normally recommend a no. 4 as it's less intimidating to begin with, but a 5 is a solid choice too and many would pick that out first. 

Which leads on to my main point and that is basically to ignore the debate about BD v. BU bench planes. Focus just on standard Bailey-pattern bench planes as almost all practitioners did throughout the last century. Just as with them there's no reason you couldn't use that style of bench plane exclusively throughout your life and never feel that you're missing out on something. 

Bevel-down planes certainly have some beneficial aspects, but I feel that they're more than outweighed by the finicky sharpening issues for one. And, frankly, the cost of the spare blades in many of those currently in production would put me off all by itself, when really good new swap-in irons for Bailey-pattern planes are available to anyone for less than a tenner, and sometimes less than a fiver. 



Chlad":eqie8x3m said:


> On the other hand I keep reading on several places and seeing reviews of no62 LA jack (the Lie Nielsen in particular) that sing praises to how great they are, especially for beginners like me.


Bear in mind that a lot (*a lot*) of current writing is basically someone looking for a subject to write about, and whether they may also have a hidden agenda is worth pondering.

Whether the writer is in a suitable position to be making the recommendation is also worth thinking about. What I mean isn't whether they're qualified to proffer an opinion – no qualifications are necessary for that – what I'm getting at is whether they still realise what is better for beginners and early learners. Not all by any means, but many pros/semi-pros have lost perspective on what is best for those starting out. IMHO this is not to go with what's easy now because it's more palatable to the typical beginner mindset but to prepare them properly, as though they were being trained to be full-time woodworkers; so no babying, no half measures and no easy early solutions.

Now back to your two big slabs of wood. I would strongly strongly recommend you don't use them for your first forays into hand planing! Start with some stuff a little smaller and more conquerable and work your way towards them. As you gain experience, not just with planing but with honing which you have to learn alongside this, and as your confidence builds you'll know when you're ready to take a run at them.

Last but not least: never forget that you don't have to be able to finish-plane wood to call yourself a 'proper' woodworker! There's no rule that says the last tool to touch the surface has to be a plane. _In fact it's rare to do so._ Scraping and/or sanding to complete the smoothing of wood isn't just fairly common, it's the norm.


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2018)

Andy Kev.":250wxst6 said:


> ....t in terms of general use they are an equal alternative to BD with the added advantage of being mechanically simpler.


But with the added disadvantages of being much more expensive and much more difficult to sharpen and adjust. These are the strengths of the Bailey design and the reason for its phenomenal success over a very long period and particularly important to the very frequent/regular hand tool user


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## MikeG. (27 Apr 2018)

It's difficult to think of the right analogy. Do you learn to drive in a Rolls Royce or Ferrari? (No, that equates a LN plane with a top-of-the-range car when it is just a tool, and no better than most others). When you take up golf do you buy the same clubs Tiger Woods uses for many thousand pounds, or do you borrow a friends old set and see how you get on? (That's much better). In many sporting fields, there is a standard expression......."all the gear and no idea".........which is a bit pejorative in your circumstances, but indicates the danger in just jumping in with expensive kit before you are even sure this is a hobby for you. 

Do what you want. Honestly, everyone here wishes newcomers well, and will help all they can. The advice you are getting is more "well I wouldn't do it that way" rather than "that way is wrong". If you've got lots of spare money for setting up in woodwork, well great, spend it on top-notch kit. The thing is, there is absolutely no substitute for skills and experience. Fancy tools are not a shortcut. My biggest single piece of advice then would be spend your money on wood rather than more and more tools, and spend lots of time working with that wood with a few simple tools. Oh, and don't fall into the standard forum trap of fetishising planes. It's just a blade held at an angle, with a couple of handles.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Apr 2018)

I would say learn to sharpen, set and use a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 (It's only my opinion, I prefer half sizes) properly first - and never, ever buy anything on someone else's say so. Hundreds of thousands of first rate craftsmen managed to work their whole lives with a couple of Stanleys, Records or Marples.


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## Obi Wan Kenobi (27 Apr 2018)

phil.p":2ohtwsng said:


> I would say learn to sharpen, set and use a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 (It's only my opinion, I prefer half sizes) properly first - and never, ever buy anything on someone else's say so. Hundreds of thousands of first rate craftsmen managed to work their whole lives with a couple of Stanleys, Records or Marples.



Chlad, I'm in the same position as you, a relative newbie to 'proper' woodworking, and this advice from Phil is exactly what I did. I found a Stanley No 4 and No 5 1/2 on eBay that needed some real TLC and were a very reasonable price, and I also inherited a well used 30 year old Stanley block plane. I figured that if I can dismantle, clean up, sharpen and reassemble them, I'll have good knowledge of how they work before I start to use them. If I get experienced enough, I may consider something else, but for now these planes will do me fine.

OWK ccasion5:


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## PAC1 (27 Apr 2018)

MikeG.":1lr6w5y0 said:


> It's difficult to think of the right analogy. Do you learn to drive in a Rolls Royce or Ferrari? (No, that equates a LN plane with a top-of-the-range car when it is just a tool, and no better than most others). When you take up golf do you buy the same clubs Tiger Woods uses for many thousand pounds, or do you borrow a friends old set and see how you get on? (That's much better). In many sporting fields, there is a standard expression......."all the gear and no idea".........which is a bit pejorative in your circumstances, but indicates the danger in just jumping in with expensive kit before you are even sure this is a hobby for you.
> 
> Do what you want. Honestly, everyone here wishes newcomers well, and will help all they can. The advice you are getting is more "well I wouldn't do it that way" rather than "that way is wrong". If you've got lots of spare money for setting up in woodwork, well great, spend it on top-notch kit. The thing is, there is absolutely no substitute for skills and experience. Fancy tools are not a shortcut. My biggest single piece of advice then would be spend your money on wood rather than more and more tools, and spend lots of time working with that wood with a few simple tools. Oh, and don't fall into the standard forum trap of fetishising planes. It's just a blade held at an angle, with a couple of handles.


Mike, I agree with what you say but your analogies did not go far enough. Not only does the OP want to learn to drive a Rolls Royce or Ferrari but he wants to do so whilst competing in a Grand Prix.
Whilst I admire the ambition of taking a plane out of its box and setting about a large live edge brown oak project. It is a challenge even for those of us with lots of experience. You only have to read Custard's wonderful thread on such a task to see that there are many challenges that will only be overcome with practice and experience.
It would be disaster for the OP to set about this with enthusiasm only to become very tired and frustrated, not knowing if it is the set up of the plane, the skill to read the grain or the fact that it is just a very difficult project involving very hard work. Then give up woodworking all together.


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## nabs (27 Apr 2018)

I am not sure the OP was really asking whether to buy old/cheap vs new/pricey but since it has come up, we should at least warn him that this is another hornets nest.

lots of people starting out get by quite happily with second hand planes from ebay (me included) and we are very lucky in the UK to be able to get hold of good quality old tools for very little money that will do everything you need. 

However, the OP has some cash and is not proposing to buy a whole range of expensive planes, just a single plane to get going. I think buying a posh one is a perfectly logical thing to do when starting out, particularly if you are not really interested in tool fiddling. 

don't get me wrong, sorting out old tools can be a very enjoyable pass time in its own right and you do learn a lot about how tools work, but not everyone will relish the time it takes away from learning how to use them.


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2018)

nabs":2yl83cc6 said:


> ..... but not everyone will relish the time it takes away from learning how to use them.


The main reason for buying a trad Bailey pattern plane - they are much easier to use, though maybe not "out of the box" like an LV or LN. When they've been out for a bit that advantage disappears. Here today, gone tomorrow, for ever!
Been using my 5 1/2 this morning. It takes about 30 secs to whip out the blade, drop off the stayset cap iron, freehand it on an oil stone, put it back together - almost in the same setting, then set it spot on. BU takes much longer and is harder to adjust even after putting back together - they all suffer from having no lever cap and also the tedious Norris-style adjuster.


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## nabs (27 Apr 2018)

you can buy a posh/modern Bailey pattern planes too, not just BU planes and unconventional BD designs. 

Whatever happens a new user is going to have to learn to sharpen and adjust their planes - and eventually other maintenance might be needed - but my point is that this should be easier with a new plane as you avoid the extra work that can be needed to salvage an oldie.

PS I agree the Bailey design is brilliant - an extraordinary success story when you consider it was invented 150 years ago and still going strong..


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (27 Apr 2018)

Chlad":2eo6s5dz said:


> ... So I feel that a combination of the various factors: size (no62), LN brand (you get what you pay for), simplicity of the LA and versatility speak quite highly in favour of this plane. Am I on the right path? Or will the difficulties of sharpening its thick blade(s) trump the benefits? .....



Purchase the #62. It is a superb plane. It will get you working wood with minimal effort (and isn't that the important part). Get a second blade: keep one honed at 25 degrees for shooting end grain and another with a 50 degree secondary bevel for smoothing. You will be delighted by the results.

Also purchase a vintage Stanley #4. Learn about its idiosyncrasies. Strip it and clean it up, read about tuning these planes. Have fun getting an education. Learn to set the chipbreaker. It takes time but is worth the effort in the long run. In the meantime, continue to use and enjoy the #62. These planes are different, but you will come to appreciate the strengths of each.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## nabs (27 Apr 2018)

a compromise! And a very constructive suggestion


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## MrDavidRoberts (27 Apr 2018)

NEW Good BU Plane such as Quangsheng 62 is Miles and miles better than a standard old-school plane, you need to have a real expertise to setup a regular old battered vintage plane to shave as smooth as the BU will do almost right out of the box..

I would rather use the hours needed to turn an old plane in to good plane in actually making something... + Again..People new to woodworking will have a rubbish experience with one of the old planes as they don't really know what they are doing + it's hard to actually learn without knowing what you should be getting.

A good 62 plane starts from 100-140pounds , a decent shape 5 1/2 will run you 40 ,sure you can tune up both to give same results but for me it took like half a year and number of days to actually ''learn'' how to do it properly and get the results I want & I still don't think I'm expert in it  In actual billable hours It probably took me like 70-80 hours in research/trying out various things/learning the ways to sharpen it/shape it / etc... so even at minimum wage that's like 500pound investment just to get it working.. There's no way I'm getting that back..



I wish I had bought a new 62 plane right away...

All the old farts who have never actually tried a modern good 62 plane, please just don't comment nonsense...
Btw, I funded my Good tools by purchasing cheap old planes from ebay, fixing/polishing them up and selling for 3-5x more.. I have gone through at least 25 of the older stanley/records, not 1 plane I received was in the state of ''use it out of the box for smooth results'' ,a newcomer will simply have no idea what's wrong with an used plane and what needs doing to it to get it perfect- again they don't even know what results you should be getting from a good one as they have nothing to compare against..

Yes it's a cheap way to get in to woodworking.. but it's a waste of your time..


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## D_W (27 Apr 2018)

stay away from high angle single iron planes. they're a farce. 

Your choice is between a bevel up plane or a common stanley pattern (or something similar) either at stanley bedded angle or perhaps norris (which is scarcely different despite all of the speculation of the advantage of "another 2 degrees"). 

I would recommend the stanley, but I'm sure that where you start (smoothing thickness shavings), 95% of newbies will find a bevel up plane easier to figure out. AS you progress, you'll find them to be slower to use than a stanley plane, but good results first, and speed with good results later.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Apr 2018)

MrDavidRoberts":31pydrgo said:


> In actual billable hours It probably took me like 70-80 hours in research/trying out various things/learning the ways to sharpen it/shape it / etc...



Which comes as no surprise, as you take no notice of sound advice. :lol:


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2018)

MrDavidRoberts":2npci8yq said:


> ........
> All the old farts who have never actually tried a modern good 62 plane, please just don't comment nonsense.....


I've tried most of them fairly thoroughly - some borrowed others bought (including a 62 and various LV, LN, Quansheng etc). 
In the end I couldn't see the point of having all that dosh tied up just in case I was wrong, and sold them all off. The last two to go were a Stanley SW 4 and a Clifton 4.
I've now just got nice collection of oldish Stanleys and Records from 3 to 7 and a few woodies.
Most expensive would be a USA made Stanley 7 which cost about £40, the others all a lot less.


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## MrDavidRoberts (27 Apr 2018)

phil.p":3c7t2edu said:


> MrDavidRoberts":3c7t2edu said:
> 
> 
> > In actual billable hours It probably took me like 70-80 hours in research/trying out various things/learning the ways to sharpen it/shape it / etc...
> ...



Most of its given by people who just ramble about completely different things than asked or from people who thinks that Lidl tools are the pinnacle of engineering and haven't tried anything better... I rarely bother replying to posts here. Today I have some time to waste =D> 
If I hadn't got an internet addiction I wouldn't visit this forum at all


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2018)

phil.p":13d5yeki said:


> MrDavidRoberts":13d5yeki said:
> 
> 
> > In actual billable hours It probably took me like 70-80 hours in research/trying out various things/learning the ways to sharpen it/shape it / etc...
> ...


 :lol: :lol:


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (27 Apr 2018)

D_W":9d5v85bk said:


> stay away from high angle single iron planes. they're a farce...



David, I wish I could be there when you say this to Terry Gordon (HNT Gordon planes)! 

Have you used any?

I suspect that you will say that they can only take thin shavings, and that this makes them inefficient. I think that is true to some extent (and I do not understand why his New Aussie Jack Plane is bedded at 55 degrees - that does not make sense to me either). On the other hand, my 60 degree trying plane and smoother are both superior - and, importantly, very reliable - performers. I can set them up for a tearout free performance without a test shaving. At the stage they are used, which is after my jack plane, they are refining surfaces. They do this very well. 

The high angle bed planes I dislike are those with wide blades and/or high bodies. Wide blades and high angles are hard to push and all one can take are very fine shavings. High bodies create more downforce and add friction. Low planes, such as the HNT Gordons, convert energy better and are easier to push.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## MrDavidRoberts (27 Apr 2018)

Jacob":19ctvquz said:


> MrDavidRoberts":19ctvquz said:
> 
> 
> > ........
> ...



yes but have you priced up your time it took you to find all of them and to fix them up?

If you purchase a Super-cheap plane for £10 which needs 6hours of work to get it in tip-top shape+ another 2hours over a few days to find it ,and you value your free time at £15/hour , the actual super-cheap plane ends up costing you £10+ £120 , Or you can purchase the same NEW plane from a decent manufacturer for about £120 and it will require maybe 15mins of time..

When you Decided to sell them, you will be able to get maybe £25 back for that old ''cheap'' plane? So you end up Loosing £105 .
VS
You can sell the good plane for maybe £100 ( good planes hold their value extremely well) , so you end up loosing only £25..

Think about it Son....We have limited time after all,sometimes it's cheaper to purchase the ''expensive'' stuff.


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2018)

I'm thinking about it son. 
Most of them I just sharpen and go. Sometimes scrape off a bit of rust. 30 minutes max. I bought Stayset irons for some and have tried a few of the super blades. Have flattened one or two soles - but the very quick wet 80 grit wet-n-dry way.
Time and money well spent, it's interesting and valuable to know how to do these things, rather than just relying on an expensive promise on the box from dodgy tool merchants!
And if you follow my advice you too could save a fortune!

PS the new ones don't hold their price so well nowadays - the bottoms dropped out of it.


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## D_W (27 Apr 2018)

MrDavidRoberts":1dg8t4z3 said:


> Jacob":1dg8t4z3 said:
> 
> 
> > MrDavidRoberts":1dg8t4z3 said:
> ...



It takes about $30 and 15 minutes to set up a used stanley 4. If you got this "price your time" stuff from Chris Schwarz, you're taking directions from a dolt. Invest a bit of time in learning to set up a stanley 4. The only extra tooling you need is a glass shelf from a cabinet and a roll of PSA paper. If I'm being honest, I did spend maybe $5 more than $30.

I'm not aware of a single new premium that offers an economic benefit after time is accounted for. To buy them all and be ignorant about setting up or maintaining tools is nothing to boast about, either.

In the unlikely event you learn (in half an hour) what you should look for when buying a used plane and one out of 5 or so is unrecoverable, it's not exactly financially catastrophic. 

There are other use-related benefits to the older tools. They create less friction on wood, take less time to grind (the irons), though that's not a particularly big deal. You will care less about surface rust if it occurs (and it will at some point), they are lighter (which you may not have the muscle control to see as an advantage until you have more skill), and generally at least as versatile - often more. Versatility is not the bag of tradeoffs where you have four specialized boutique tools and something like a stanley doesn't do what they do as well, it's really an issue of the specialty tools being one dimensional (try doing heavy work with a bevel up plane), and the versatile tools doing all of the things they do at least as well in the hands of an experienced user. 

If you're coming into this as a beginner thinking you're going to figure out something new and outsmart all of the people who have hundreds or thousands more hours on plane handles, or who you don't think use a fine enough finish stone for fine work, you can learn the hard way (or not at all). Quoting blogs from writers is probably not a good way to go, though. 

One of my favorite quotes came from Warren Mickley, and it applies here. Perhaps you think there is no economy in working with used tools because you can't be bothered with understanding what actually needs to be worked on before they're fully able to perform. However (quoting warren) "just because you can't do it doesn't mean that I can't" (that's paraphrased somewhat I'm sure). I think he's also said something like "don't confuse 'you can't do it' with 'it can't be done". They're not the same.


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## nabs (27 Apr 2018)

Chlad - if you have money burning a hole in your pocket the best advice on this thread was from Derek a few post up . Don't despair!

PS I have just calculated that I've used up approximately £150 of my time reading replies to MrDavidRoberts' complaints about the quality of various tools over the last couple of years - is there somewhere I can claim a refund?


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## Bm101 (27 Apr 2018)

MrDavidRoberts":2jzwxwqx said:


> All the old farts who have never actually tried a modern good 62 plane, please just don't comment nonsense...
> Btw, I funded my Good tools by purchasing cheap old planes from ebay, fixing/polishing them up and selling for 3-5x more.. I have gone through at least 25 of the older stanley/records, not 1 plane I received was in the state of ''use it out of the box for smooth results'' ,a newcomer will simply have no idea what's wrong with an used plane and what needs doing to it to get it perfect- again they don't even know what results you should be getting from a good one as they have nothing to compare against..
> 
> Yes it's a cheap way to get in to woodworking.. but it's a waste of your time..




As the OP of no less than *three* current threads asking advice on buying planes (if you count the one you duplicated previously) _*and *_one on buying a screwdriver for planes #-o , you seem to have had a Damascus moment overnight where you have made a decision and now all other options are wrong. Again.
It's a shocker to us all. Really.
It's not the first time by a long way you have asked for help and advice then outright ignored it or taken umbrage when it was given by people willing to share their knowledge, experience and _opinions_. It might be best though if you didn't offer advice to other beginners when you're asking it yourself then habitually disregarding it and deciding you know best. 
Beginner myself. No shame in that, I'm the first to admit it. At least I realise the first step to learning is that there are no absolutes. Second step is realising just how much you have to learn. It's frightening that bit. Third step is not faltering, giving up and doing summat easier and choosing a pace, style and method that suits you. As long as you are getting some sort of joy out of it, some release you're doing okay I'd reckon. 

Personally I only took it up as a hobby because I have lived a life of rather dubious virtue (always been nice to kids and kittens and nice people generally mind) and seeing as how Jesus' old man was a Carpenter and that I thought 'Won't hurt Chris. Just in Case you're wrong about all that stuff. It's not like you have to go to Church every week or 4 times if you're a Catholic.'
Don't mind a bit of sea fishing. Can't be doing with Carp and all that freshwater nonsense and I don't have the money for flyfishing.
They aren't gonna be letting you into Heaven because you made your Mrs go on a Carp fishing Holiday to some lake in France and anyway they all gave up that fishing lark when they became Disciples.

To the OP before the thread is derailed I'd urge just a little caution.
You never know who you are listening to on the internet. 
Use the UKW search function, read a few of the older threads on this topic as well. Will give a good balance.
As with all things in life one mans meat is anothers poison.

When I very first started out I bought a few Ashley Iles chisels. Didn't make me better.Did make me realise what properly (F******G ) sharp could be and what a difference it made. Yeh they probably did tbh. That was _actually _a Damascus moment for me. Knowing a little more than I did then would I buy them now if starting out. No chance. 
Do I regret spending the extra?
Noooooo. Not really. 
(hammer) 
I have some lovely chisels that will outlast me.
Didn't make me better though. Didn't increase my knowledge or skill set. Just made those few first steps a little easier. At a very early point you can fall from the shiny tool trap to the sharpening trap.

Wait till they are on sale then check for flatness before unwrapping

Get a bit of leather, some autosol to strop and you're off. And you'll have to hone (a lot more than you thought).

Guessing they managed this







without Bailey, LN or BU planes. There's a point where you have to stop asking the tools and know how to do it yourself I'd say.


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## stoopiduk (27 Apr 2018)

I don't know about your workshop, but as a beginner myself I'm glad I didn't buy one of the exotic hyper-planes. My Stanley number 4 from tooltique has been a perfect canary down the mine, warning me of the rust risk when tools are left in the workshop. I'd be annoyed if a more expensive plane had to suffer before I looked into properly caring for a plane.
I respect the advice of everyone on here, but you can spend too long looking for advice on forums. If you're like most of us, you'll probably end up choosing whatever you were leaning towards before you made this post. Do it. Go make wood into smaller bits of wood.


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## Andy Kev. (27 Apr 2018)

Jacob":29wj8buy said:


> Andy Kev.":29wj8buy said:
> 
> 
> > ....t in terms of general use they are an equal alternative to BD with the added advantage of being mechanically simpler.
> ...


I just had a look at the Classic Hand Tools website and the Veritas LA Jack is 260 quid and the LN #5 is 320 quid. Of course a new BU plane is massively more expensive than a good second hand Bailey equivalent but if you buy new at the quality end, they're not too dear at all. The irons are as easy to sharpen but as they are much thicker they take a lot longer to grind (writes the bloke who two nights ago spent ages regrinding his LA Jack iron) but how often do we have to set aside a bit of time for the regrind? As for adjustment, in my experience the more you get to know the plane, the quicker the adjustment is and I certainly don't feel I waste valuable time getting it to just where I want it to be.

And just to be clear: I've got nothing at all against BD planes (I love my 4 1/2) but am simply saying that a BU Jack is ideal for the beginner working on his/her own and is in any case an excellent tool in its own right.


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## profchris (27 Apr 2018)

I don't have any view on whether bevel up or bevel down is better - I suspect much the same, outside special uses.

What I can say is how I found using both. 

I have a Quangsheng 62, which is a BU jack, and it works very well. But it just doesn't suit me - I find the lateral adjustment is not enough, the Norris style advancer slow and fiddly, and the mouth is much too narrow for taking thicker shavings. So most of the time it's used as a weight when I'm glueing. I should probably sell it. Once it's set up for the job it works really well though. But it is heavy and tiring to use.

By contrast I have a Veritas bevel up apron block plane which is brilliant (although depth adjustment is still a little fiddly). For instrument making it does dozens of useful jobs.

For larger bits of wood I mostly use a second-hand Record no. 4. I was lucky - it needs no fettling apart from sharpening the iron. I also have a Stanley no. 7 bought from a car boot, which again worked from the off though would probably be even better with some fettling. 

So if I were advising _me_ when starting again, I'd tell myself to buy a decent no. 4. And to buy a new one, so it needed nothing more than sharpening to get going. But that's me.

The OP might be making bigger things than I do (those slabs could be worked with a no. 4 but a number 5 or 5 1/2 would make it easier I guess).

I have two Quangsheng planes, and they were both good, so I'd start there. The no. 4 is a little cheaper than the no. 62, the no. 5 1/2 a bit more. https://www.workshopheaven.com/quangsheng-no-4-bedrock-pattern-smoothing-plane.html

The four things which would make me choose a no. 4 (or no. 5) over a no. 62: lighter, more lateral adjustment for when I hone the iron out of square, easier depth adjustment, can take thicker shavings.


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## MikeG. (27 Apr 2018)

MrDavidRoberts":1kr465qn said:


> ........All the old farts who have never actually tried a modern good 62 plane, please just don't comment nonsense.....



When did you earn the right to tell people what to post or not post? Did someone make you a moderator when no-one was looking?


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2018)

Andy Kev.":29ua9adh said:


> ...........
> I just had a look at the Classic Hand Tools website and the Veritas LA Jack is 260 quid and the LN #5 is 320 quid. Of course a new BU plane is massively more expensive than a good second hand Bailey equivalent but if you buy new at the quality end, they're not too dear at all. .....


Bloody expensive. 
I just looked on ebay and a Record 5 1/2 tends to be about £30. We live in a post timber-industry world where there are thousands of hand tools available for very little. It won't last forever.


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## D_W (27 Apr 2018)

Jacob":24fzp25y said:


> I just looked on ebay and a Record 5 1/2 tends to be about £30. We live in a post timber-industry world where there are thousands of hand tools available for very little. It won't last forever.



It sure is a luxury, though. To find out just how inexpensive those planes are, try and make one for the cost of materials. 

It costs me about $100 to make a good try plane (from scratch, and purchasing a good little used taper double iron set - that part's not from scratch - usually). to buy a similar plane in the UK, I see you guys sometimes have nearly unused planes not sell for months for 30 pounds. 

And the record planes for 20 pounds on ebay sometimes (let alone a few dollars). the lumber costs more these days, but the tools sure are cheaper in relative terms than they would've been in their production days.


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## nabs (28 Apr 2018)

I do enjoy these threads - largely good natured and I usually learn something new because of the debate. 

It it is also an important outlet for MrDavidRobert's discontent, after all, if he was not busy on here telling us which tools not to buy he'd have more time on his hands to become e.g a local councillor or an MP. I don't think we want that on our conscience.

But I do worry about the effect on people just starting out - choices about tools,sharpening, bench design etc quickly become over complicated and the result must be that some people simply give up and take up a simpler hobby instead (I call these the 'knitting casualties') . 

To the OP I hope you got some helpful advice here (you really can't go wrong if you follow Derek's advice earlier) but whatever you decide I hope you let us know how you get on. It really is an enjoyable hobby, honest!


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## AndyT (28 Apr 2018)

Well said Nabs. I am looking forward to seeing what David has made with all his carefully researched flatulence-free tools. 
I'll keep watching the Projects section.


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2018)

nabs":2wy39lm1 said:


> .....
> But I do worry about the effect on people just starting out - choices about tools,sharpening, bench design etc quickly become over complicated .....


I worry too! 
That's why I keep referring back to basics. It's possible to do almost everything very effectively with some very simple tools and techniques - you may have to, if you haven't got the latest kit instantly accessible, so it's something everybody needs to know.
And I'd argue that many of the basic processes and tools are actually better and more effective than the pricy alternatives and the gadgets. There's a lot of marketing going on out there, to trap the unwary.


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## nabs (28 Apr 2018)

On that note a quick plug for the englishwoodworker and his recent blog post on a his recommended list of tools to get going. 

He makes a similar point: using simple set of essential tools helps learners to focus on technique and practice.
https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/woodworking-hand-tools/


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2018)

nabs":druk3803 said:


> On that note a quick plug for the englishwoodworker and his recent blog post on a his recommended list of tools to get going.
> 
> He makes a similar point: using simple set of essential tools helps learners to focus on technique and practice.
> https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/woodworking-hand-tools/


Excellent!
Slightly extravagant - I wouldn't bother with a holdfast. I've got one - they seem such an obvious essential, but in fact it hardly ever gets used.
One big omission; two bench hooks absolutely essential.


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## richarddownunder (28 Apr 2018)

MrDavidRoberts":2pbxs7lj said:


> NEW Good BU Plane such as Quangsheng 62 is Miles and miles better than a standard old-school plane, you need to have a real expertise to setup a regular old battered vintage plane to shave as smooth as the BU will do almost right out of the box..
> 
> I would rather use the hours needed to turn an old plane in to good plane in actually making something... + Again..People new to woodworking will have a rubbish experience with one of the old planes as they don't really know what they are doing + it's hard to actually learn without knowing what you should be getting.
> 
> ...



Well, I have been a beginner for 30+ years - still learning each time I make shavings and dust. I have 'wasted' hours and hours fixing up old planes, making planes and have spent quite a bit of dosh on some nice new Clifton ones because I wanted rather than needed them. I have enjoyed every minute and have a number of tools that I very much enjoy using to make stuff (along with some nice AI chisels etc) - they are all old friends. So it depends on your point of view. In the time 'wasted' fiddling with tools, I think I've grown to know how to use them better and how they respond in different circumstances. It doesn't really matter if its BU or BD. If you buy a reputable new plane it is likely to work well 'out of the box'. If you buy an old one (I personally like Record) and fettle it, it'll most likely work just about as well and you'll learn a whole lot in the process and probably enjoy the process. So here is my thought, if someone is that green that fixing a plane is a huge challenge or barrier (given the amount of info on the net on the topic - it ain't that hard), then cutting decent joints will also be a high hurdle ... so doing a woodwork night class or some short course, or joing a local group, or just visiting someone with experience will probably be the best investment and will advance them by years in a short time compared with struggling alone. My first woodwork class project was a wonky letterbox - I learned mostly what not to do. I've improved a bit since then but that course set the scene. There are plenty of better courses than the one I did too. Improvement has been a slow process but enjoyable and enjoyable is what hobby woodworking is all about, isn't it? 
Cheers
Richard


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## MikeG. (28 Apr 2018)

Jacob":1o45d441 said:


> ........One big omission; two bench hooks absolutely essential.



Agreed. But they're not so much a tool as a jig, and something that even a complete beginner can make in 20 minutes.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Apr 2018)

Wash your mouth out - Jacob doesn't use jigs.


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## Obi Wan Kenobi (28 Apr 2018)

nabs":2xp6ls2h said:


> On that note a quick plug for the englishwoodworker and his recent blog post on a his recommended list of tools to get going.
> 
> He makes a similar point: using simple set of essential tools helps learners to focus on technique and practice.
> https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/woodworking-hand-tools/



I suppose then, by Mr David Roberts reasoning, this means that the English Woodworker is an old fart too :shock: At lease I'm part of a unique group :lol: 

OWK ccasion5:


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## MikeG. (28 Apr 2018)

I've never heard of the English Woodworker, but on the face of it, I'm in complete agreement.


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## nabs (28 Apr 2018)

I've subscribed to a couple of his instructional video series (workbench and side table) and thought they were excellent. His background is furniture making, but he is a natural when it comes to teaching and very good at demystifying the basics while gradually introducing you into how to think about design and process. 

Just what you want as a beginner. 

He really does do pretty much everything with that limited set of tools too.


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2018)

The new boys on the block with their fancy planes, gadgets and obsessive sharpening techniques - it's as though somebody has re-written the books of how woodwork is/was done and substituted strange, impractical and expensive alternatives from outer space (out of the box!!).
It's thanks to a few old farts that simple trad woodwork hasn't been totally erased from consciousness. Very nearly was in my case - I fiddled for a long time with sharpening jigs until a road to Damascus moment when I twigged it was total bolloxx. It all got much easier after that!


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2018)

MikeG.":2vrzpwmo said:


> I've never heard of the English Woodworker, but on the face of it, I'm in complete agreement.


It's Richard MacGuire isn't it?


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## nabs (28 Apr 2018)

it is and he is one of the people still practicing traditional woodwork and encouraging others to do the same. He is not really an old fart, but luckily a lot of us who watch him are so we compensate!


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## MikeG. (28 Apr 2018)

Jacob":nyty98xe said:


> MikeG.":nyty98xe said:
> 
> 
> > I've never heard of the English Woodworker, but on the face of it, I'm in complete agreement.
> ...



Oh,OK. I've met him once or twice. Nice chap.


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## Andy Kev. (29 Apr 2018)

nabs":i22alk85 said:


> On that note a quick plug for the englishwoodworker and his recent blog post on a his recommended list of tools to get going.
> 
> He makes a similar point: using simple set of essential tools helps learners to focus on technique and practice.
> https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/woodworking-hand-tools/


He's very keen on keeping things straightforward and ungimmicky. On the other hand he's got a pragmatic attitude to newer things. Here for instance is his blog entry in which he sings the praises of ... wait for it ... the Veritas LA Jack plane!!!

https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/bevel-up-plane/

It's worth pointing out that he is not trying to push BU planes as a replacement for BDs but rather he's making clear where their strengths and weaknesses lie and indeed where he thinks BDs are better. All of which is a world away from the trench warfare approach which we sometimes experience on here.


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## Silly_Billy (29 Apr 2018)

Andy, I’ve just read your link to the English Woodworker; I’d say you’ve answered the OP’s question!


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## D_W (29 Apr 2018)

Silly_Billy":29fzgztg said:


> I’d say you’ve answered the OP’s question!



I thought actually answering an OP's question was against the rules on internet forums!!


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## Silly_Billy (29 Apr 2018)

D_W":3mj44z26 said:


> I thought actually answering an OP's question was against the rules on internet forums!!



Damn. Rumbled


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## Chlad (30 Apr 2018)

Good Mary mother of Jesus! Hornet's nest indeed  :mrgreen: 
But, seriously, I wasnt expecting anything less and I truly thank you all for taking the time to offer your advice. I can see the logic behind each argument. 

I am not scared of putting hours of learning and effort into this hobby and I am the type who generally learns better by being thrown in the deep end. However, this is a hobby for me and I am conscious that it will remain as such. I will deal with one project at a time. 

I was considering the LA Jack not to cut corners or because I saw it as being better than BU planes but because I saw it as an alternative and I have seen and read quite a few people rating them (Renaissance woodworker, Ron Hock, Peter Sellers, etc). 

However at the same time I understand very well that there is a reason why the Bailey design has survived the test of time. 

Just to clarify, the reason why I was thinking buying LN was not because I've got money burning in my pocket or because I got into the shiny posh new tool trap. I was merely applying the moto "you get what you pay for". At the same time I was thinking that having to mess around with restoring, flattening, etc on a used plane might prove to be offputing for someone like me (with virtually no experience and very basic knowledge in hand planes). Dont get me wrong, I am well aware that the sharpening is one of the main skills that I would need in this area. I was planning to get a decent sharpening jig (like the Veritas one) for this. 

I have read articles describing issues with the Veritas blade thickness and issues and the Norris style it uses. I have also read about some issues with the Quangsheng brand and on top of that there also seems to be an ethical discussion going on as well. Clifton seems to be the nearest one can get to LN quality and there are only a few criticisms about the brand. LN seems to get top marks on every aspect (precision engineering, quality, customer service, etc). 

I dot intend to buy many planes or build a collection of them. I can safely say that I might end up with a maximum of 2 or 3. So, for my first one, I am trying to choose a size which would be more universal. Hence why I thought that 62 would be the best one.

I paid a visit to my nearest Axminster store a couple of days ago to have a feel and try of the planes. The LN 62 was really nice to hold and use. Really nice shape and weight. The LN 5 1/2 was a tad heavier for my liking. They didnt have a no5 but judging by the dimensions provided on their website it should be quite similar to the 62. The 62 performed quite well on a piece of curly maple that was being used for demonstration which was rather impressive considering that, upon inspection, the blade as heavily damaged with dents all over it's cutting edge. 

I am well aware that the internet hype (coupled with man's innate attraction to shiny metal stuff) can play havoc with one's impulses and on a few ocassions I have purchassed stuff which I could have done without or that a cheaper version would have been just as good (recent Festool plunge saw comes to mind  ). 

But one thing puzzles me: Are LN planes just hype? Or are we saying that all that fancy stuff is not worth the money they ask for?


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## Chlad (30 Apr 2018)

richarddownunder":3sjlckgb said:


> if someone is that green that fixing a plane is a huge challenge or barrier (given the amount of info on the net on the topic - it ain't that hard), then cutting decent joints will also be a high hurdle ...



The problem with the info on the internet is that it's so conflicting that newcomers get often caught in a net of confusion which stops them from throwing that first step. So, whilst the actual process of fixing may not be hard the actual process of getting there is a lot harder. I think. 



richarddownunder":3sjlckgb said:


> ... so doing a woodwork night class or some short course, or joing a local group, or just visiting someone with experience will probably be the best investment and will advance them by years in a short time compared with struggling alone.



I decided to enquire into doing a beginner bricklaying course not long ago.Just so that I could get enough knowledge to build a simple brick garden wall. I very quickly gave up on the idea as soon a I was able to recover from the shock I got when I was quoted £4k for the pleasure :shock: :shock: . So if woodworking classes or courses cost that sort of amount (which I suspect they might do) then I have no intention of getting shocked twice. 

However the idea of joining a local group or meeting with someone experienced is quite interesting. If anyone here knows of any groups in Cheshire, or is from Cheshire and has the time and inclination to help a newstarter, please let me know. 

By the way, if I did go the path of getting an old plane of Ebay what should I look for? Is it a question of hit and miss? Would something like this be any good? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fully-Restor ... Swx4xa1MZ0


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## Woody2Shoes (30 Apr 2018)

Chlad":3oxpx69z said:


> I have read articles describing issues with the Veritas blade thickness and issues and the Norris style it uses. I have also read about some issues with the Quangsheng brand and on top of that there also seems to be an ethical discussion going on as well. Clifton seems to be the nearest one can get to LN quality and there are only a few criticisms about the brand. LN seems to get top marks on every aspect (precision engineering, quality, customer service, etc).
> 
> I paid a visit to my nearest Axminster store a couple of days ago to have a feel and try of the planes. The LN 62 was really nice to hold and use. Really nice shape and weight. The LN 5 1/2 was a tad heavier for my liking. They didnt have a no5 but judging by the dimensions provided on their website it should be quite similar to the 62. The 62 performed quite well on a piece of curly maple that was being used for demonstration which was rather impressive considering that, upon inspection, the blade as heavily damaged with dents all over it's cutting edge.
> But one thing puzzles me: Are LN planes just hype? Or are we saying that all that fancy stuff is not worth the money they ask for?



I own and use vintage Stanley/Record and QS (via Workshop Heaven) planes, also LN and Veritas tools (other than bench planes):

- All of them (with correct set-up) work just fine.
- Living in the UK, I see no ethical problem with Chinese stuff - LN "copied" the Stanley designs, Quansheng copied them too - we all consume Chinese-made stuff, and why not.
- For me, Clifton and LN hand planes are beautifully made (I perceive, rightly or wrongly, possible quality control issues with Clifton but nothing a good quality retailer couldn't put right) but are too expensive for me. I find that QS hits the "sweet spot" of quality, in terms of design, materials and construction - I struggle to see the point of paying more for LN/Clifton.

Are LN planes just hype? No, but they are expensive - both in absolute terms (for my personal circumstances) and relative to the bang-for-buck you get from QS (which is pretty much indistinguishable in use) or from old-timey Stanley/Record.

I have both a QS 5 1/2 and a QS62 - for me, the only downside with BD planes the only hassle is having to remove the chipbreaker for sharpening - the two downsides with BU planes are that cambering the blade is harder (although Derek Cohen gives an excellent "how-to" on this) and I personally find the Norris adjuster tedious.

I've ignored Veritas - their quality of design/materials/construction is excellent but they also make some real innovations in design and use of materials - usually, but not always - with success. I don't much like their bench planes because of the price (and the Norris adjuster!) but I have loads of their other stuff.

The two planes I use most are my old Stanley No4 and my QS 5 1/2 (the weight, giving momentum, is an advantage in many situations).

Good luck! W2S


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## richarddownunder (30 Apr 2018)

Chlad":1v79awb2 said:


> richarddownunder":1v79awb2 said:
> 
> 
> > if someone is that green that fixing a plane is a huge challenge or barrier (given the amount of info on the net on the topic - it ain't that hard), then cutting decent joints will also be a high hurdle ...
> ...



LOL, I'd volunteer but I'm a bit far away. I got keen on knifemaking a few years back. Visited a local bloke and it was the best thing I could have done. Only spent a couple of hours but made all the difference and saved me untold disappointment. The rest I picked up from you tube and am now far enough on to do my own thing. Also joined a local wood turning group for a while. Got a bit bored with turning but still learned a lot. The Record 5 looks OK from here. Don't know if that is the going price in the UK - could probably get one cheaper if pennies count. Personally, I'd prefer to get an honest non-restored one and do it myself.



> (I perceive, rightly or wrongly, possible quality control issues with Clifton but nothing a good quality retailer couldn't put right)


 I think they have been very good for quite a while now. All mine (4 of them) are of an excellent standard. But I guess occasionally one slips through as they do with any manufacturer. In any case Thomas Flinn are very helpful IMHO and experience and would, no doubt, put it right. And they are small local manufacturer, for you, which I still believe is worth supporting.

cheers
Richard


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## ED65 (30 Apr 2018)

Chlad":2qzwyc3l said:


> By the way, if I did go the path of getting an old plane of Ebay what should I look for? Is it a question of hit and miss?


Although of course it's done all the time I would prefer not to buy from pictures. But some things to look out for would include cracks in the casting, excessive rust (lots of rust is not a dealbreaker by any means, but the heavier it is the more it can hide issues), missing or replacement/swapped parts, cracks or chips missing from the wooden handles. Cracked handles, including the horizontal splits across the rear handle which are not common unfortunately, as bad as that seems are generally fixable and the repair can be done so it's perfectly seamless (and sometimes invisible). 

Some also add to their rule-out list plastic handles, but I think that's short-sighted; while they work as handles just fine cheap plastic is a bit naff, however the resin handles that Stanley used for a period are often lumped into the same category but they are in a different class altogether. 

If you can't visit some car boots to hunt for tools on the cheap I always recommend somewhere like Gumtree. Although you'll be waiting longer to find a plane in your area this is offset by having the opportunity to look it over in the flesh before you hand over your money, which can be invaluable. And the prices are usually lower than eBay.



Chlad":2qzwyc3l said:


> Would something like this be any good? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fully-Restor ... Swx4xa1MZ0


That looks to be in stonking condition. I doubt it will sell for the current price! And of course you pay P&P on top of whatever it ends up selling at. 

Also, as with all tools with some collector value, users should be wary of paying a premium for the box which adds nothing of value as far as we're concerned.


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## Silly_Billy (30 Apr 2018)

Chlad":3ipyotqq said:


> I decided to enquire into doing a beginner bricklaying course not long ago.Just so that I could get enough knowledge to build a simple brick garden wall. I very quickly gave up on the idea as soon a I was able to recover from the shock I got when I was quoted £4k for the pleasure :shock: :shock: . So if woodworking classes or courses cost that sort of amount (which I suspect they might do) then I have no intention of getting shocked twice.



Thankfully, woodwork courses don't cost anything like that! E.g. down South, there's David C and John Lloyd. The latter offers a Fundamentals weekend course that costs £250.

I don't know the nearest places to Cheshire, but Chris Tribe is in Yorkshire. Plus there's a list here showing numerous courses and events. Also, the news section of Good Woodworking magazine includes a course listing for the month ahead.


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## Jacob (30 Apr 2018)

Record 5 1/2 SS just went for £36 on ebay. Bargain. Ditto the fully restored one referred to by Chlad above.
In the real world you can still buy a top notch planes like these for a TENTH of the price of a fashionable but over-weight retro LV copy. Less than the price of a replacement blade even.


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## PAC1 (30 Apr 2018)

Whether a LN is worth the money comes down to whether you want to spend time tuning a plane or spend money to reduce the amount of tuning. As you have seen you can get a good second hand plane for a fraction of the price of a LN . You run a risk with what you buy and then have to tune it up and maybe buy a replacement blade. A LN is guaranteed and will be ready to work in half an hour. Is a LN a good plane Yes. Can you tune a Stanley or Record to perform as well as any bailey pattern plane Yes.
No doubt folks will argue even with this analysis as some simply do not like new or up market manufacturer’s and think that because in their mind it is a waste of money they have a duty to pursuade everyone else. But as was said earlier it is your money spend it on your priorities. I still say you need to learn to plane first


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## Chlad (30 Apr 2018)

ED65":1r8s4cyk said:


> That looks to be in stonking condition. I doubt it will sell for the current price! And of course you pay P&P on top of whatever it ends up selling at.



Looks like it was my lucky day. :mrgreen: Bowed to the collective wisdom here and I think this plane should keep me busy for a long while. Thank you very much fo rthe guidance given until now and for the guidance you will very likely give me in the future helping me learn the way of the plane :mrgreen:


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## richarddownunder (1 May 2018)

Good for you. Hope it turns out well!


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## Phil Pascoe (1 May 2018)

If you are unsure of anything this is worth a watch - 
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... estoration


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## ED65 (1 May 2018)

That was a stroke of luck, nice one! 

From the pics it looks like a quick hone of the iron may be all that's required for this to be ready to go to work, although a little fettling of the leading edge of the cap iron might be required too. Many would want to do something with the finish on the handles too but that's optional obvs.


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## Racers (1 May 2018)

Once you add in the cost of your time cleaning sharpening and adjusting a second-hand plane you are up to the price of a LN/LV, I do enjoy the process but if you are a full time woodworker rather than a hobbyist then it doesn't make sense.

Pete


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## Phil Pascoe (1 May 2018)

Only if you earn £100 an hour. :lol:


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## Jacob (1 May 2018)

The price difference is over £300. It should take half an hour to get a typical plane sorted and anyway for a professional it's good practice to get to grips with how things work and sometimes make mistakes in the process. 
OK amateurs can't be bothered and if they are fairly well off the LV/LN out of the box option is attractive, but bloody expensive! If they use them at all (many don't!) they are going to have to learn about the planes too, as they don't stay in just outa da box condition for long.


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## ED65 (1 May 2018)

PAC1":1bolk6l3 said:


> A LN is guaranteed and will be ready to work in half an hour.


Half an hour? Unless I was changing a straight edge to a cambered edge I'd want to be taking shavings after a quick hone, maybe even straight from the box. 



Racers":1bolk6l3 said:


> Once you add in the cost of your time cleaning sharpening and adjusting a second-hand plane you are up to the price of a LN/LV, I do enjoy the process but if you are a full time woodworker rather than a hobbyist then it doesn't make sense.


I've never been confident the sums have to be done that way. Without cheating the books the tool cleanup could be done on the pro's own time, same as it is for a leisure woodworker who has a different daytime job. But even if it were done during workshop hours who charges their time at nearly £200 an hour?


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## Jacob (1 May 2018)

PAC1":e03nfrag said:


> ...... You run a risk with what you buy and then have to tune it up and maybe buy a replacement blade. ......


"Tuning up" is a very exaggerated term for a simple process which is just part of routine maintenance, which everybody who uses these tools need to know how to do. 
Best way to learn is with an old plane - if you get it wrong it hasn't cost a lot and you can try again, if you get it right you have learned something very valuable and now have a useful tool.
NB I've never needed to buy a replacement blade in my life, though I have experimented with replacement alternatives , to find out if they are as good as they are said to be. They aren't. Even in some utterly rubbish planes the blades have been the best thing about them. Duds are unknown as far as I'm concerned.

PS the very worst blades may need the "without a ruler trick" to apply a little bevel on the face side. It's the same as the "ruler trick" but much easier without the ruler.


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## Cheshirechappie (1 May 2018)

On woodworking courses for beginners in Cheshire, this might be worth looking at;

http://cheshirewoodworking.co.uk/cheshi ... g-courses/

On 'fettling' secondhand planes - don't take too much notice of the old f-- , er, hands who've fettled dozens of planes when they say it can be done in twenty seconds. They can - they've done loads, so know how without thinking. If you're new to it, take your time - take it to bits, examine it carefully, see how the bits fit together, give it all a good clean. Put it back together. Sharpen the iron (that's another learning curve), try it out. Fiddle about and find out. Hit problems. Do some research. Try again, and get a bit further. Gradually, things will come together and you'll be planing wood, but it won't be instant. Might take hours, or days, or weeks - but it's time well spent, in the end.

Enjoy it, though. It's all learning, and steps towards the goal of making stuff from wood.

Edit to add - as suggested earlier in the thread, buy a copy of Robert Wearing's 'The Essential Woodworker'. It's about the best concise guide to the basics I've ever found.


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## Racers (1 May 2018)

Strip clean/repaint/polish, lap the frog to the bed, sharpen the blade, sort the cap iron, lap the sole flat, strip, stain and wax the tote and knob.
A mornings work at least, more if you are waiting for the paint to dry :wink: 

Pete


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## Phil Pascoe (1 May 2018)

And justified, if you're attempting to sell it to a museum - but most people only do (and need to do) the work that's necessary to make them fit for use.


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## PAC1 (1 May 2018)

Jacob":16m4cuz3 said:


> PAC1":16m4cuz3 said:
> 
> 
> > ...... You run a risk with what you buy and then have to tune it up and maybe buy a replacement blade. ......
> ...


Jacob only you could have an argument with what I did not say rather than what I did
"Tune up" is only exaggerated if you imply something into the phrase
"Maybe" becomes "needed". The vast majority of old blades are good or better hence I said "maybe"
You are lucky never needing to replace a blade I had a 1990's Stanley No 7 where the blade was hopeless it was soft and twisted. That was one out of many.


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## Jacob (1 May 2018)

Racers":1wi5acqq said:


> Strip clean/repaint/polish, lap the frog to the bed, sharpen the blade, sort the cap iron, lap the sole flat, strip, stain and wax the tote and knob.
> A mornings work at least, more if you are waiting for the paint to dry :wink:
> 
> Pete


You don't need to do one tenth of that unless you are really unlucky. 
Paint, strip, stain and wax the tote and knob - what on earth for? A wipe with an oily rag would be more use and a lot easier.
I'd sharpen first, scrape rust from the sole if necessary, squiggle of candle wax, then try it out. Only then do problems show, if any. You may get away with just 10 minutes work.
Avoid lapping/flattening anything - it's a weird modern sharpeners obsession. There are some terrible tales on here of people setting about lapping even brand new tools and wrecking them in the process. Don't do it!
Defective blades - if it doesn't keep an edge it's very likely to have been over-heated on a grindstone - everybody does this at one time or another, I know I have. Luckily this is always very local, within a few mm of the edge, so a few sharpenings should remove it and get you into good steel. You need the practice! And grind very carefully!


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## MikeG. (1 May 2018)

You're both right, of course, but talking about different tools, and different owners. But this is the internet, where the extreme position is always the one argued. If you were standing next to each other in a workshop with a pair of rusty old planes to sort out, you'd be talking about the weather within 2 minutes, and Jacob would be making a pot of tea for Pete as he put the finishing touches to his tool. They'd both work beautifully, but Pete's would look a little prettier than Jacobs. That's all. Well, other than that I'd pop by, tell them that they don't need any extra planes anyway, and ask them to show me what projects they were working on.


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## novocaine (1 May 2018)

well this is as fun as ever. 
Chlad, where are you in Cheshire, you are welcome to come and try my no. 4, 4 1/2, 5 BD planes and small cheap BU block plane, I'll even sharpen them before you come. :O


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## Phil Pascoe (1 May 2018)

But what will you sharpen them on?





.........................................................ducks, covers head and runs for the hills :lol:


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## Racers (1 May 2018)

MikeG.":g2bl6vfo said:


> You're both right, of course, but talking about different tools, and different owners. But this is the internet, where the extreme position is always the one argued. If you were standing next to each other in a workshop with a pair of rusty old planes to sort out, you'd be talking about the weather within 2 minutes, and Jacob would be making a pot of tea for Pete as he put the finishing touches to his tool. They'd both work beautifully, but Pete's would look a little prettier than Jacobs. That's all. Well, other than that I'd pop by, tell them that they don't need any extra planes anyway, and ask them to show me what projects they were working on.



Mine would work better as well, don't underestimate the frog/bed lapping step.
And the tote/knob varnish is usually cracked and flaky, so unless you fancy holding some thing rougher than a pebble dashed bath tub you need to do something.

Pete


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## MikeG. (1 May 2018)

Racers":2vtl6c9n said:


> .......Mine would work better as well, don't underestimate the frog/bed lapping step.......



Two minutes, maybe 3?


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## novocaine (1 May 2018)

phil.p":qghelvfc said:


> But what will you sharpen them on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The thighs of a virgin, if I can find one round here, they are a rare breed.


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## Silly_Billy (1 May 2018)

Ah, but would it be an American virgin from Maine or a Chinese virgin from Workshop Heaven?


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## novocaine (1 May 2018)

Silly_Billy":1fmhknda said:


> Ah, but would it be an American virgin from Maine or a Chinese virgin from Workshop Heaven?



I prefer a Welsh virgin, they aren't as course and you can get one for a pint and a bag of chips, rare as hens teeth mind, but I'm off to Llandudno next weekend so I'll see if I can scout one out.


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## D_W (1 May 2018)

Racers":1gbu3od5 said:


> Once you add in the cost of your time cleaning sharpening and adjusting a second-hand plane you are up to the price of a LN/LV, I do enjoy the process but if you are a full time woodworker rather than a hobbyist then it doesn't make sense.
> 
> Pete



It takes me about 20 minutes to sort out a 4, and that includes lapping (even though jacob doesn't like that). i might have to hone a second time if the camber is too little or too much on the first go, but once more and you're with it. 

If that's equivalent to LN, it's a pretty high hourly rate!

I have more hand-used equipment for a plane than most, but the things that I have are worth buying for anyone who is going to actually woodwork (which often involves making more tools, unless you're just going to make drawers and occasional tables).


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## custard (1 May 2018)

Mike's right, the internet blows almost everything way out of proportion. Let me see if I can add a subtler perspective.

Here are the three planes that I use the most, a Record 5 1/2 with a normal thin iron (although it's one of the earlier _laminated_ thin irons), a Lie Nielsen 5 1/2, and a Veritas bevel up jack (it may not look like a Veritas, but that's because I didn't like the original handles so made different ones). As a full time furniture maker that adds up to _thousands_ of hours with these three planes, spread across _scores_ of different timbers. 






Because I work a lot with highly figured wood, which tears out as soon as look at it, it's more efficient to keep two 5 1/2 planes on the bench. One with a closely set cap iron and one with a regular setting, but for most makers you'll only need one.

Here's what I've found.

If you're working with softwoods or temperate zone hardwoods, then a properly sorted Record or Stanley will deliver a shaving, and more importantly a workpiece surface, that's _indistinguishable_ from one produced by a Lie Nielsen or Veritas plane. So if the budget's tight you'd be crazy not to look very seriously at this option. It's also worth pointing out that woodworking is a more expensive hobby than many anticipate. Even using second hand tools you can easily sink £2,000 into hand tools and workshop essentials. But if you go the premium tool route then you must be prepared to spend much more, maybe more like £5,000. And that's before you even start thinking about machinery.

So am I saying a Record or Stanley is every bit as good as a Lie Nielsen? No I'm not. Most used Stanley or Record planes can be brought back into service, but there are some that will require a lot of work to make them perform even acceptably, and there are a few that are pretty much basket cases. Buying older tools is a lottery in a way that buying a Lie Nielsen just isn't. Sure, the odds are on your side with a used Record or Stanley, but if you're unlucky and end up with one with a deeply scored sole from planing plywood edges, or a deeply pitted iron, or a badly cast frog, or a warped or cracked sole, or a cap iron that refuses to seat properly; then you're facing a great deal of remedial work that you may not have the skills or the energy to complete.

Furthermore, no matter how well tuned a Record or Stanley is, it will never feel quite as silky smooth as a Lie Nielsen. I notice this most when I've taken a rough sawn or band sawn edge and I'm planing it smooth. The efficient route is to start taking deep cuts and then progressively go finer. I've never handled a Record or Stanley that is _quite_ as good as a Lie Nielsen, they're always that bit stiffer or sloppier to operate, more resistance on the depth of cut wheel, and more backlash too. I've invested plenty of time trying to raise their performance, but I can never _quite_ get there. Incidentally, the Veritas bevel up plane is probably the worst of all in this respect, the Norris style adjuster means you cannot adjust depth of cut on the fly. You have to remove your right hand from the rear handle and then make a separate adjustment. It's not the end of the world, but when you're deep into a project doing this for the umpteenth time then it's an irritant that only grows. 

Lots of people will argue about the thicker A2 or powdered metal irons. In my practical experience, when you're working on long grain planing of temperate zone hardwoods, it's just not that big a deal. After many years I've got into a rhythm of honing after about ten or twelve minutes of constant planing, and that's generally do-able with either a thin carbon steel iron or with a thick A2 iron. However, I've got a dedicated sharpening station just a few feet from my bench. If you have to clear away the work from your bench and get out your sharpening kit, then you might place more value on a tool that lasts more strokes before becoming unusably blunt. Furthermore, long grain and temperate zone hardwoods aren't the full scope of a plane's duties. Once you get into end grain planing, especially on really tough and abrasive stuff like Rosewood, then I find my Record irons get noticeably blunter within a minute (let's say fifty plane strokes), after a while honing at sixty second intervals becomes a bit tiresome. You can still get the job done (just look at Alan Peters, who used a Record plane on materials like this all his working life), but you'll handle end grain planing faster and more efficiently with an A2 iron.

Sticking with sharpening, in my opinion you shouldn't consider a plane with a thicker iron unless you have a power grinder or linisher. In fact I'm sceptical that a water cooled power wheel is really up to the challenge unless you're a very occasional user. To use thick irons efficiently you have to keep regrinding the primary bevel. If you don't then more and more of your woodworking time will get eaten up with marathon stints at the stone, rubbing away for many minutes instead of a few seconds. You might think an ultra coarse diamond stone changes this equation, I've tried it and I'm not convinced.

And there's another dimension related to sharpening, and that's forming a camber. I've often seen an experience craftsman use the plane of another experienced craftsman, and then remark how uncomfortable they were with the tool. In most cases it's subtle differences in the camber that is throwing them off. A beginner wouldn't notice any difference between them, but the longer you work wood the more important these tiny differences become. And with enough time at the bench I suspect you too will become obsessive about the camber on your plane irons! Furthermore, it's always a work in progress, every time you hone you're consciously or subconsciously evolving that camber. 

But here's the thing, forming and maintaining the perfect camber is much, much harder on a bevel up plane than on a bevel down plane. To give one example, I suspect that a beginner taking up woodworking with a bevel up plane would likely never develop the subtle appreciation of cambers to the position where they can efficiently and accurately edge joint boards. They'll either use a planer/thicknesser to do all or most of their edge jointing for them, or they'll simply resign themselves to gappy, ugly glue lines on their jointed up tops.

In summary my advice to a beginner would be, unless you've got exceptionally deep pockets then get a second hand Record or Stanley, but be patient and look for the very best example you can find. Do this in the knowledge that you won't get a Mercedes driving experience from a Fiat, but you'll still get to where you need to go. If you're dealing with a lot of end grain, or if sharpening is a disruptive process that you need to delay, then think about an aftermarket A2 or PMV II iron. But if you go this route then also get an inexpensive grinding wheel and learn how to use it. Bevel up planes are lovely tools, but leave them for later on in your woodworking career. I've got one, but I use it almost exclusively for end grain and for shooting where cambers aren't critical. 

Most important of all, whatever plane you choose, set yourself some basic planing challenges. Like bringing a rough sawn board to "six square", and _perfectly_ edge jointing two boards. You'll need to invest forty or fifty hours in mastering these challenges, but along the way you'll learn lessons about sharpening, cambers, and tool fettling that will make you a far better woodworker in the long run.

Good luck!


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## Racers (1 May 2018)

A piece of brass shim super glued round the end of the adjuster will remove a lot of the backlash.

Another thing to add to my list above. :wink: 

Pete


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## custard (1 May 2018)

Racers":1bk9110q said:


> A piece of brass shim super glued round the end of the adjuster will remove a lot of the backlash.



I haven't tried that, but I have undertaken the giant faff of hand filing a replacement gunmetal yolk to a closer tolerance fit...better, but still not as good as a Lie Nielsen.


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## Tasky (1 May 2018)

General advice I got was to just get a 4 or 5 plane, get it roughly set up (plenty of guides for this online), and just get started. You learn far more far quicker and the rest you can pick up once you actually have some experience to work with.


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## Jacob (1 May 2018)

I've never bothered about backlash. You need it anyway so that you can feel it engaging on the pull/push of the blade. Zero backlash is unhelpful.
If there's a lot of movement then you make sure the wheel turns easily so you can flick/spin it from one position to another.


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## Chlad (1 May 2018)

novocaine":1lwmvolo said:


> well this is as fun as ever.
> Chlad, where are you in Cheshire, you are welcome to come and try my no. 4, 4 1/2, 5 BD planes and small cheap BU block plane, I'll even sharpen them before you come. :O



I'm in Macclesfield. Your offer is very much appreciated and it would be a pleasure. ccasion5: I can come whenever suits you best. I work out of hours so have the days free as well as 3-4 afternoons a week .


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## novocaine (2 May 2018)

so we hit the first hurdle, I work normal hours so it would need to be an evening, after 7pm really (got to get the little ones down before I'm permitted time in the shop). 
need to revise my comment too, it's a pair of 4's and a 5 (a record a stanley and a record with a stanley lever cap, the purists will hate me) along with a faithful (more hate) and a stanley 102 that is pretty much all the planes I've ever needed. none have had more than 10-20 minutes spent on them in the past 10 years by me. excluding the faithful they were either my fathers or my grandfathers planes and they were all users, so they are a bit knocked about but still take perfect shavings and I can still joint 2 boards or flatten a top with any of them. 

don't remove the backlash from the adjuster, it's there for a reason, it means the mating face is the only one in contact (and it should always be on the advancing face) to stop the adjusted backing out. It was quite a clever little design really.


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## Jacob (2 May 2018)

novocaine":2zreeejp said:


> ......
> 
> don't remove the backlash from the adjuster, it's there for a reason, it means the mating face is the only one in contact (and it should always be on the advancing face) to stop the adjusted backing out. It was quite a clever little design really.


Exactly! Also you can feel it engaging (or not) on the push or pull.


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## ED65 (2 May 2018)

novocaine":3hm2hzg2 said:


> ...a faithful (more hate)


Not from me, best lower-cost planes going IMO! Between the three I've handled the sum total of the work they needed would fit into a lunchtime break. 



novocaine":3hm2hzg2 said:


> [backlash] means the mating face is the only one in contact (and it should always be on the advancing face) to stop the adjusted backing out.


I don't bother with that on planes, on spokeshaves yes but my planes (bench and block) don't lose setting if the last adjustment was backwards, even with a jar from hitting a knot.

It's common advice all right, but IME it's exactly akin to the traditional admonishment about laying planes on their side.


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## Jacob (2 May 2018)

ED65":3gd1a2j3 said:


> novocaine":3gd1a2j3 said:
> 
> 
> > ...a faithful (more hate)
> ...


I bought a Faithful 10 on the off chance but have to say it was unusable. It was well made throughout but the parts just didn't fit together - too far out to correct. Got the money back.
It is a risk buying cheap, but then it doesn't cost a lot and it's all a learning curve!


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## novocaine (2 May 2018)

ED65":2ra1kzrr said:


> It's common advice all right, but IME it's exactly akin to the traditional admonishment about laying planes on their side.



It's common engineering practice to me I'm afraid rather than what woodworkers claim, same with a lead screw on a lathe or mill table, you always back out then take the backlash out so the cutting is down against the forward facing edge of the screw. I have a ropey X,Y table on the drill press (clarks finest piece of heavy weight poorly machined boat anchor, but it does it's job) it has enough backlash that you can make it jump across the square thread form of the lead screw on the Y access with a big enough drill bit. 
But I guess if your cap iron is tight enough the blade shouldn't really move (and if it does, you aren't really going to notice, it's 1/2mm on the threads, not enough to stop a heavy cut still cutting and if your taking skinny little shavings it isn't likely to move even with a heavy knot). 

as to laying it on it's side, yer that one was always laughed at by the old hands, Guess it's one of Jacobs "modern sharpening madness" type of things. unless you are working on a steel bench top that is.


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## CStanford (2 May 2018)

ED65":3gmr93jd said:


> Last but not least: never forget that you don't have to be able to finish-plane wood to call yourself a 'proper' woodworker! There's no rule that says the last tool to touch the surface has to be a plane. _In fact it's rare to do so._ Scraping and/or sanding to complete the smoothing of wood isn't just fairly common, it's the norm.



Completing the surface preparation of a furniture project in wood is about homogenizing the surface so that all parts equally accept, to the greatest extent possible, whatever finishing regimen is to follow. It usually won't do to scrape and sand mouldings, curved parts, etc. and leave the broad flat surfaces as they come from the plane. Best to scrape and sand it all to be sure, though it is often very hard to tell any difference once a finish goes on. If on a project you've just completed you CAN tell a difference, and it's a jarring one, then you've worked yourself into quite a corner. You either have to accept the results or strip the finish you just spent so much time applying, and start over.


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## D_W (2 May 2018)

Scrape non flat surfaces, burnish with shavings and the finish uptake the same as a planed surface.


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## CStanford (2 May 2018)

How do you know? You said you don't build furniture. Burnish with which set of shavings? The ones from the power planer? scrub plane? jack plane? jointer? smoother? 

How many different wood finishes have you ever applied?

I think you're confusing burnishing turned parts on the lathe while under power. Rubbing mouldings and other curved parts by hand with some set of shavings isn't going to do much if anything at all. It takes a while to notice any difference on a turned part spinning at 800 rpm or more. It might take more time to burnish a part, well, on a lathe than it did to turn the profile in the first place. In fact, it probably should as a rule.

Otherwise, I think that 'burnish it with shavings' is mostly so the 'I've never used a scraper or sandpaper' crowd won't spoil their own narrative, if not their own delusion.


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## D_W (2 May 2018)

Smoother shavings. It's not hard (they're always right in front of you or on the floor), and though I haven't read it in a text, I can't imagine that it wasn't standard practice to make a surface uniform for finish. 

Burnishing something like knitting needles on a lathe, much different - but nice. Shavings after scraper just evens the surface enough so that the uptake of sanding sealer is similar (and thus color). 

I have built cabinets and cases. It's not something I'd do for no reason, because I don't fancy myself a magnate of furniture while watching my wife go off to work so that I can *pretend* that I have a legitimate business that couldn't exist on its own. You know?


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## CStanford (2 May 2018)

David, I doubt that you have the physical endurance required to burnish a large case, and its mouldings, vigorously enough and long enough to actually make a difference. You knocked a little grunge and a little dust off some wood with shavings you picked up off the floor and that was about it and thought you had actually accomplished something. The surface looked a little brighter because it no longer had any dust on it, fingerprints, general shop grunge, etc. There's nothing wrong with this, of course, but you did not leave behind burnished material. You simply used shavings instead of a clean cloth or a tack cloth. We've all done this. It is not burnishing wood.


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## Bm101 (3 May 2018)

novocaine":apsjggvg said:


> don't remove the backlash from the adjuster, it's there for a reason, it means the mating face is the only one in contact (and it should always be on the advancing face) to stop the adjusted backing out. It was quite a clever little design really.



That's a very handy tip Novocaine. It makes perfect sense when pointed out. Thanks for sharing, much appreciated.


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## ED65 (3 May 2018)

D_W":e7bnszg0 said:


> Smoother shavings. It's not hard (they're always right in front of you or on the floor), and though I haven't read it in a text, I can't imagine that it wasn't standard practice to make a surface uniform for finish.


It was indeed done traditionally. I was planning on posting just to mention this to CStanford. 

It's hard to judge if it was standard practice from what I've read, but it was definitely done. Burlap and other coarse fabrics are also suggested for the purpose. But practical men tend to come up with similar practical solutions and as you say the shavings are always right there in abundance. In the days before commercial abrasives I'd be more surprised if it _wasn't _tried to be honest, given wood waste had a second life in other areas already.




CStanford":e7bnszg0 said:


> It is not burnishing wood.


Burnished wood is not a single state. Naturally there's a spectrum from not burnished at all to as burnished as the wood can get and any amount of rubbing with something of a mild abrasive quality does something to burnish the surface. 

You do of course have to rub hard and for quite a time to get to a fully burnished state, q.v. polissoir work, but I've used burnishing a lot over the years in various materials (many much harder than the majority of woods) and you don't have to rub hard or for very long for the process to start, even when the burnishing stuff used is significantly softer than the surface being worked. You can confirm this easily with nothing more than a scrap of denim on hickory, hornbeam, locust or any other very hard wood you have to hand.


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