# It's not cricket



## Steve Maskery (26 Feb 2006)

Look all, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, really I'm not.

But.

I've just spent five minutes trying to make head or tail of what someone is trying to say. I'm not mentioning any names, and there are actually several offenders here. But can we all learn to speak something resembling the same language, which here is English, and our overseas friends are very welcome indeed.

Please get a keyboard with all the keys on it. Then use them. A sentence begins with a Capital Letter (use the Shift key to achieve this) and ends with a full stop or period (you will find this between the comma and the slash on a UK keyboard). You will be astonished at the increase in the number of people who bother to read what you have to say, because it becomes a pleasure and not a chore to decipher the incessant stream of characters that pour forth.

If you want to communicate to us, make it easy, eh? I don't want to have to work at it. If it is difficult I shall just ignore it, which is a great pity, because I suspect you actually have something to say which is worth listening to.

And yes, I know I've just finished that last sentence with a preposition. I'm not infallible, even I realise that. Sometimes.

Come on guys, make an effort to write legibly, won't you?

Don't get me started on spelling.

Frustrated Steve


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## matt (26 Feb 2006)

...and breeeath. :wink: 

I agree and believe that everyone should aspire to be able to communicate in a clear, concise, and elegant fashion. However, I also accept that for some the written word is not a significant part of their daily life and nor is typing.

I aspire to be able to create out of wood, however, it is not part of my daily life but I may learn something from a skilled but illiterate person.

We can't all be good at everything - sigh...


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## Steve Maskery (26 Feb 2006)

matt":2l9mzuir said:


> ...and breeeath. :wink:



I know, I know, but I feel quite strongly about the abuse of the English language.

I agree about being able to learn from someone who is challenged by their literary skills, but I'm not talking here about being able to use the subjunctive! It's just that 300 words in lower case and without a punctuation mark in sight is more than I want to cope with. Yes, it may be my loss.

BTW on Friday I was forced to point out to an otherwise delightful young waitress that there is no apostrophe in _Courses_. You can imagine my popularity.....


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## PowerTool (26 Feb 2006)

Quite agree,Steve - but it's part of the general decline in the correct use of English;there is too much "text-speak" used in society (why? - you don't get charged by the letter here!) and reliance on "spellchecker" (which will tell you if the word is spelt correctly,but _not_ if it is the correct word)

That doesn't mean I expect _every_ word to be spelt correctly by everyone,but would expect to be able to work out what the odd word is.

And yes,I know English is not the first language for all the forum users.
(Who I find generally do exceptionally well with a second language)

Andrew (who despairs at the U.K. education system  )


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## Losos (26 Feb 2006)

Steve, thanks for starting this thread. My pet hate is people who use a lower case when refering to themselves, i.e. "i" insted of "I"

Interesting to note that all respondants, so far, have used this correctly


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## Aragorn (26 Feb 2006)

idontreallyseewhattheproblemis.


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## Paul Chapman (27 Feb 2006)

I'm with Steve. I even use punctuation in text messages 8) 8) 8) 

Paul


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## martyn2 (27 Feb 2006)

what about the guys and girls that have problems, say with being ... dyslexic ?

martyn


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## gwaithcoed (27 Feb 2006)

Thank you Steve, I agree with everything that you have said.

Alan.


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## Paul Chapman (27 Feb 2006)

Martin, 

You are right, of course, that some people do not write well through no fault of their own.

However, I think we should all be encouraging each other to write well, because in this ultra-competitive world in which we live, good written work can be such a powerful tool. Whether it be a job application, where one might be up against 200 others who have applied for the same job, or battling with the tax man, the ability to express oneself clearly and concisely is so important.

A by-product of forums (should that be fora? :wink: ) such as this is that it gives us plenty of practice in writing - let's be as encouraging about developing writing skills as we are with woodworking skills  

Paul


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## Paul Chapman (27 Feb 2006)

Martyn,

Apologies - just noticed that I couldn't even spell your name correctly #-o #-o #-o 

Paul


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## Steve Maskery (27 Feb 2006)

Thank you all for your support, I shall wear it always 
I'm not having a go at people who genuinely have difficulty, not at all, but as I say, some basic puctuation makes it so much easier to understand, and FWIW, I think it is propbably just laziness in most cases. If I'm wrong I'm prepared to eat humble pie.

It's the writer's loss, as I simply give up trying, especially if it is a page full.

Enough said, I think. Let's get back to woodwork.
S


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## SammyQ (27 Feb 2006)

Wot, an' givus teachers no chance to bellyache abaht all thos spellins that wee get evry dey?

example: "incest" instead of "insects"

example -specially for Gill and Alf: "pelvic gurgle"

Want to know THE most badly spelt word in Biology teaching? "ORGANISM" - just think about it. 

None of these kids were SEN, dyslexic, or plain daft. I agree fully with that man Maskery, "Long live the three R's" and the sooner the "Revised Curriculum" re-introduces them, the better.


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## Gill (27 Feb 2006)

Today is the 53rd anniversary of Parliament considering a proposal to simplify English spelling. One MP described the English language as "half-way between the alphabetic system of Spanish and the picture-writing of Chinese".

The bill was eventually dropped, but not before it afforded the media the opportunity of using the glorious headline, "Spelling bill passes second reading".

Gill


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## Woodythepecker (27 Feb 2006)

> martyn2 wrote:
> 
> what about the guys and girls that have problems, say with being ... dyslexic?



Some of the worlds greatest singers, tv personalities, sportsmen and brains, were/are dyslexic: 
Robbie Williams
Noel Gallagher
Michael Barrymore
Muhammad Ali
Tom Cruise
Anthea Turner
Guy Ritchie
Richard Branson
Steve Redgrave
Albert Einstein (Yes the brainbox himself, little old Albert Einstein)

and this handicap never stopped them from being one of the best in their particular field.

Regards

Woody


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## martyn2 (27 Feb 2006)

I Know, you forgot to add me to the list ! Not to sure what kind of artist I would be :?:  

Martyn


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## frank (27 Feb 2006)

I am not as well educated as some on this forum ,but it seems to me that if you try to answer someones question and it is not in proper english then you should not post at all ,untill you go and learn how to .
If this offends some of the group just think how many wont post and just lurk ,in case they to get told they are doing it all wrong .
I like to work with a bit of wood i am not a craftsman ,just a part time woodworker ,if i can do someone a favour i will but i wont do them a disfavour .

Mr maskery and Sammieq
If you want to go through this post and under line any mistakes please feel free to do so .

frank


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## Steve Maskery (27 Feb 2006)

No need to, Frank, it's quite clear what you are saying. Each sentence begins with a capital letter and ends with a full stop. There are other errors, yes, but it is quite readable.

My gripe is about posts which are not readable.

Thank you for your contribution.

Cheers
Steve


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## SammyQ (27 Feb 2006)

Hear, hear!!

Vote Maskery!!


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## Devils Advocate (27 Feb 2006)

Hey sorry, and I'll echo what was said at the very beginning of this thread that I don't want to start a fight...

I'm with Steve Maskery on this, but I can't agree with his last comment about it being quite clear what Frank is saying. I'm not referring to the spelling, punctuation or grammar or any such thing, only that Frank seems to contradict himself in the first two sentences!
In the first he says that people shouldn't post unless they can do it in proper English, then in the second that people shouldn't be put off from posting in case they get it wrong.
These are the sort of vaguaries that should be avoided, which are often caused by not reading what has been typed before submitting or typing in a temper - and I'm talking from personal experience here, not pointing a finger at anyone.


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## PowerTool (27 Feb 2006)

Hi there DA - is that the same DA as on Screwfix?

If so,welcome to the forum  

If not,welcome to the forum  

Andrew


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## syntec4 (27 Feb 2006)

Steve...blimey :shock: You have started something now  

I find that my spelling and grammar have become much worse since I left school, nearly 20 years ago. I think the main reason is that I depend on spell checkers too much. I think spelling was not a problem for me at school although I struggle with it sometimes now. (You may have noticed I'm sure). I do try to make things at least understandable though. 

I suspect though that there are many people on here that could not compose an email/post as well as others, even though they are true masters of there craft. But I would rather them help me out even with the poor spelling than not bother because they don't feel confident. I could certainly use all the help I could get in the woodworking department  

I am a member of several other forums that I'm sure would turn you're hair curly. the BMX forum is one of them. ALL of the posts on that board are of the 'txt' shorthand type. 

If you cant spell or type that well -keep posting. I'm not offended, I'm sure Steve is not THAT bothered either. :wink: 

P.S Steve, i've got some great pills here, I take one after doing battle with the M6/M1 all day, calms me down a treat. You can have one if you like..... 

PPS I've just edited again as I found a spelling mistake


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## Steve Maskery (27 Feb 2006)

syntec4":5f1tney4 said:


> PPS I've just edited again as I found a spelling mistake



If it's any consolation, I had to edit mine for the same reason (except, of course, mine was only a typo, not a spelling mistake, which is not the same thing at all! ) I can always claim that it was when I wasn't wearing my contact lenses. 

I'll get me coat.

S


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## Gill (27 Feb 2006)

I'm sure the vast majority here can tell when someone is endeavouring to communicate to the best of their abilities, and when someone is being lazy. Poor grammar and punctuation can be be indicative of a slovenly attitude which in turn demonstrates disrespect to other forum members. More often, it's simply a case that the writers true skills are at the workbench rather than the keyboard.

Reading some posts can be rather taxing but my experience here is that most people try their best when drafting posts. There are some traits that Steve and others find particularly irksome. He is as a long-standing contributor to the forum who has politely asked if we can all pay attention to these points; I think it would be disrepectful of us to simply cast his request to one side. None of us are perfect when it comes to our compliance with the conventions of written communications, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to perfection. Indeed, the mere fact that we seek to improve our woodworking skills through this forum suggests to me that we all have aspirations to self-improvement in at least one respect. It's entirely in keeping with our characters that many of us should also be motivated to self-improvement in other areas, such as writing.

We are all trying to help each other and I feel we're better equipped to do so as a result of it having been pointed out that the means by which we assist each other is written communication. If our communication skills are lacking, then we might be selling ourselves short when we try to discuss aspects of woodwork. From time to time, I think it can be helpful if we remind ourselves of this.

Gill


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## Steve Maskery (27 Feb 2006)

Well folks, that was a bit more lively than I had anticipated!


Now then, what do you think of using dados?

JOKE!


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## syntec4 (27 Feb 2006)

I'm glad you spelt THAT correctly


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## DomValente (28 Feb 2006)

Steve Maskery":3sgcwdnw said:


> matt":3sgcwdnw said:
> 
> 
> > ...and breeeath. :wink:
> ...



Oh my God, in a former life I was a restaurateur,please tell me you corrected her English *after* you had eaten.
Yes that is spelt correctly
Dom


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## DomValente (28 Feb 2006)

My youngest son is at University taking a PGCE, his intention is to became an English teacher.
Writing a letter when he is in sight has become an absolute no no, as every other word or punctuation mark I use is in the wrong place.

While I can see a need to improve some parts of our language and the way she is written and spoken we must live and let live and accept that not everyone has had the same opportunities.

By the way I am reliably informed(son No.2) that one can now say,"he lighted his cigarette", now _that_ is annoying,well at least to someone of a certain age.

Dom


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## Knot Competent (28 Feb 2006)

Nobody has yet mentioned another aspect of this, in that many of these messages are typed at the close of the day, when the shoes are kicked off and the relationship resumed with that saucy Belgian minx, Mlle. Stella Artois. I suspect that she is to blame for many a typo, and a couldn't-care-less attitude, particularly on a Friday evening. A telling case for never allowing her in the workshop!

John


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## Alf (28 Feb 2006)

"He lighted his cigarette"? Oh cripes. :roll: That'll have to change to "he was asked to put his cigarette out or face a £2000 fine" anyway... :lol:

John, you beat me to it. Although I was going to say "when folks are tired after a long day"... Ha hum. 

I don't think we need get hung up on where to put the semi-colon (speaking as someone with a scattergun approach to punctuation, I hope not!) but a few capital letters, full stops and question marks are helpful. Maybe a comma, if you're feeling daring? But when it comes down to it, better to post as best you can than not post at all. We can always ask for clarification if necessary.

There's on forum I occasionaly visit where a little note occaisonally popped up at the end of a post: "Edited for SPAG". Spaghetti? No, "Spelling Punctuation And Grammar". Any volunteers for that one...? :twisted: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Vormulac (28 Feb 2006)

Alf":3t7qk8ki said:


> "
> 
> There's on forum I occasionaly visit where a little note occaisonally popped up at the end of a post: "Edited for SPAG". Spaghetti? No, "Spelling Punctuation And Grammar". Any volunteers for that one...? :twisted:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



'Sheer Pugnacity And Gall'?



V.


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## Argee (28 Feb 2006)

What an interesting thread this has turned into! 

At one stage in my career, I introduced the concept of "distance learning" and was *very* conscious of not making grammatical mistakes when preparing the material. The writing style was in the first person, "relaxed" and used contractions frequently (i.e., the reader should get the feeling that they were "listening" rather than reading). This is, actually, the style of the majority of forum contributions, so the comparison was immediate for me - it also reminded me how difficult it is to proof-read your own work!

Having once been a fanatic on punctuation, spelling, grammar and syntax, I'm now a _little_ more relaxed about it, but not much. A simple point to remember is that a comma is required where there is a pause for breath (except before the word "and"). 

Sometimes, it's quite an effort to read some contributions, mainly due to a lack of punctuation - but although it's good manners to post correctly-punctuated text, isn't it as important to treat contributions equally and not be _too_ judgemental about the content?

I feel that this thread has struck a good balance in seeking improvement without being pious - well done! 

Ray.


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## Alf (28 Feb 2006)

Argee":37gep47c said:


> A simple point to remember is that a comma is required where there is a pause for breath (except before the word "and").


Ha hum. What about the Oxford comma? :wink: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Argee (28 Feb 2006)

Alf":3orsv7re said:


> Ha hum. What about the Oxford comma? :wink: :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf


I did say "A _simple_ point ..." so the inclusion of the Oxford comma was hardly appropriate.  Good link, though!

Ray.


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## Alf (28 Feb 2006)

Well I felt it had to be said. Don't want to be pulled up for legitimate use of Oxford commas should I have a sudden urge to use one. :lol:


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## mahking51 (28 Feb 2006)

Alf
Are you aware of the exact difference between a comma and a pause?

If not, allow me....

A comma is a pause at the end of a clause whereas a cat has claws at the end of its paws.

I'll get me (my!) coat!

Martin


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## martyn2 (28 Feb 2006)

mahking51":12s0xte4 said:


> Alf
> Are you aware of the exact difference between a comma and a pause?
> 
> If not, allow me....
> ...




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

martyn


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## Steve Maskery (28 Feb 2006)

Actually the use (or possibly abuse) of the Oxford Comma (and I didn't know that that was its name) is something even I am relaxed about, simply because, in a complex sentence, it can aid readability. I often find myself reading a sentence twice, with different mental metre, when I realize that that the word _and_ is joining two parts of the sentence, whereas I was connecting another two. I believe that it is now regarded as correct, in some academic circles, to use a comma immediately before the _and_, simply because it does make it easier to read. I can't give you a reference for that, I'm afraid.

That reminds me of the sentence which contains five consecutive ands (or should that be _and_'s? Isn't a word plural an exception? I'll have to consult Lynn Truss. Anyway the sentence is in the conversation between the landlord of the local pub and the bloke doing his sign-writing.

"Oi!", says the landlord. "That's not right! You've left too much space between Dog and And and And and Duck!".

I'll just reiterate what I said at the start. This is not about education (goodness knows, that's astronomically over-rated  ); even people of very basic education, in any language I've ever tried to learn, know that sentences begin with a Capital Letter and end with one of these. It's not even about grammar or spelling, although, of course, those things matter to me. My point is entirely about readability, and it not being an enormous challenge for me to guess what the poster intended to convey.

Thank you all for your contributions here. The fact that it has grown so much means (I believe) that many people have found it, what shall we say, stimulating.

Cheers
Steve


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## Alf (28 Feb 2006)

:lol: 

Although I thought the difference is a comma's a butterfly while a pause is a moth*...? :-k 

Cheers, Alf

*Don't all rush at once; I know it ain't (isn't) so


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## frank (28 Feb 2006)

I was the cause of this thread ,a question was asked and i tried to answer it as best i could.
So i deleted it .but the person who i hold as a craftsman ,did not see the need to give any advice on the subject .
lee has posted photos in a step by step break down on how to do it ,a picture tells a thousand word ,but i dont own a camera .
So i tried to explain how i made mine ,at least i tried .

Mr maskery i like your work it is an inspiration to us all on this forume ,but please at least pass on some of your wisdom ie woodwork to the rest of us .

lets put this thread to bed and get on with the more important things in life

frank


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## Shadowfax (1 Mar 2006)

I've just got one thing to add. Then I will say no more.
Please do not write things like "should OF", "could OF", "might OF". It is wrong and makes no sense. The word is "HAVE". I'm sorry, but that is just how English works. You would not say I OF done something, would you? (Please say "no" at this point!).

Steve - I agree (or perhaps that shows!).

SF Who is about to get back in his box now!


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## dedee (1 Mar 2006)

I'm surprised there has been no mention of the panda who, after eating his sandwich, shot the waiter.

Andy - who lives in a glass house


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