# Plane makers floats



## Sheffield Tony (17 Oct 2014)

We've had a discussion about bedding plane irons, but I'm wondering what the plane makers on here use for this job.

To get started, I've bought a Liogier float, and an Iwasaki. The Liogier float, according to the website, can be used out of the box, but can be improved by sharpening with a triangular file. It did not say what you could use it for out of the box - picking your nose perhaps, bit it made absolutely no impression on wood. Sharpening produced quite a good result, but ruined a Bacho saw file in one go.

The Japanese tool felt sharp uot of the pack, worked straight off as I had hoped. But I guess it can't be sharpened, so maybe the Liogier will win in the long ru .

Any other options ?


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## Cheshirechappie (17 Oct 2014)

Can't speak from experience, but Lie-Nielsen do a few floats. Classic Hand Tools can supply, I think. Not sure if there are any other commercial suppliers, but John M Whelan, author of 'Making Traditional Wooden Planes' suggests making your own floats. He used ground flat stock, but didn't harden his. Despite that, he reckons they last for several planes before needing refiling. Might be an option.


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## Shrubby (17 Oct 2014)

I've used Millenicut/Dreadnought files and abrasives glued to things -like 10mm thick perspex. These also work on metal planes
Matt


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## liamscanlan (17 Oct 2014)

Philly uses and has started making and supplying plane floats.
www.phillyplanes.co.uk

Liam


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## Sheffield Tony (18 Oct 2014)

My first try was a piece of ground flat stock with abrasive paper stuck to it. Then I did actually pick up a huge Dreadnought file and considered it, but although it looked promising the one I have to hand is a bit clumsy for the job in hand. 

Then I thought of making my own from the ground flat stock, and watched some youtube videos of the process. The edge float - like the Philly ones - looks OK. A bit like a saw only thicker. I think I might try to make my own rather than buy one. But the bed float (the one I wanted) looks like more skill with the file than I have might be needed, not to mention patience ! 

I had not looked at the Lie-Nielsen ones; the prices aren't so outrageous as I had expected. For now, I'm getting on much better with the Liogier now it's sharpened.


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## swagman (19 Oct 2014)

I have found the LN Plane Makers Floats very good value and high quality tools. 

My personal preference is the Bed; Edge; and Side Float. All 1/8" thickness & Push. 

http://www.henryeckert.com/index.php?ro ... name=float

Another tool you will find very handy to use is a Japanese Feather File. Their sharp edges are great for kerfing along the lines marked out for the wedge abutments.

I have trialled the Iwasaki Edge & Side Plane Maker Floats. They may be suitable for shallow bed Japanese Planes, but IMO they are much too short in length to be of any benefit on Western Planes that have a much deeper bed. 


Stewie;


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## jimi43 (19 Oct 2014)

I have a Liogier float given to me by Emma and it's probably one of the first.

I gave it a quick tinkle with a Nicholson saw file and you can cut yourself on it now.

I will take some pictures tomorrow...off to work now.

Cheers

Jimi


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## JohnPW (19 Oct 2014)

I use ordinary chisels and the plane iron, but you could use files, sandpaper etc, as already mentioned.

Another idea I've read is to use a chisel with the cutting end ground off square although I'm not sure what difference it makes compared to a normal chisel.

I haven't used a float yet but at £50 each ,if and when I do use one it will be definitely home made! I agree the wider bed float will be harder to make than a narrow one.


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## jimi43 (20 Oct 2014)

I have both the "Bill Carter" ground flat chisels and the float from Liogier.

They are both excellent...and work well...and for different jobs...I now would not be without either.

I am looking to make some more floats for thinner work on both edges...and I will do those on the mill with ground 01 stock.

All of these are ideal for the job...but I will say once sharpened the Liogier is a fine piece of work and made on Noel's family milling machine so like all of his tools...excellent.

Jimi


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## Sheffield Tony (20 Oct 2014)

jimi43":wfucddmv said:


> I gave it a quick tinkle with a Nicholson saw file and you can cut yourself on it now.



Indeed. Having sharpened my new Liogier, you can cut indeed yourself with it. And create those multiple little parallel cuts that are slow to heal  I'll be more careful from now on. 

It is rather hard - the web page says HRC 60, compared to HRC 50-52 for the Lie-Nielsen ones. Presumably almost as hard as Bacho saw files, all three faces of the file are left visibly dull. Hopefully the hard steel will not need sharpening often ! I was surprised, considering that allegedly "The float can be used right out of the case", how far from true this was. As supplied it has a nice tidy dull grey finish of some sort, over the cutting surfaces too, which I suspect is half the problem.


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## jimi43 (20 Oct 2014)

Sheffield Tony":oncl6hs7 said:


> jimi43":oncl6hs7 said:
> 
> 
> > I gave it a quick tinkle with a Nicholson saw file and you can cut yourself on it now.
> ...



Yes...it's almost a protective coating of some sort...I suspect that since the one I have was a prototype it might not have been of a recent generation where they ironed out the edge sharpening before dispatch...but I must admit..I shouldn't have though it would need as much sharpening as I had to give it.

The Nicholson file was not apparently affected so I can only assume they are harder than the Bahco ones...interesting! I have used Nicholson and Vallorbe files almost exclusively in the past because of outstanding reputation...can't say I have noticed anything wrong with them and they keep on giving...so I guess they were worth the money in the long run!

Jim


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## Kalimna (20 Oct 2014)

Just out of interest, have you contacted Noel regarding the lack of usability straight from the box? He has always seemed an aimiable chap when I've emailed, and would no doubt be concerned that his tools aren't as advertised.

Cheers,
Adam


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## jimi43 (20 Oct 2014)

Kalimna":34fkymm6 said:


> Just out of interest, have you contacted Noel regarding the lack of usability straight from the box? He has always seemed an aimiable chap when I've emailed, and would no doubt be concerned that his tools aren't as advertised.
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam



Hi Adam

I shall once I have done an adequate test on it...but to be fair..I think the one I have is one of the very first...maybe if Tony has a production model then it might be more applicable if he were to pass feedback...what do you think Tony?

Jimi


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## jimi43 (20 Oct 2014)

Going back to your original question Tony...I thought I would take some pictures of the gear I used on the panel plane to give you an idea of what can be used.

I find for rough stock removal in a flat fashion...the dreadnought file is the best...







Any roughness can be removed using Bill's technique of a flattened chisel (90 degree bevel) as shown in the middle...this one is a large one but of course...you can use any size making it fit for purpose.

These two in concert work for me and make sure the ramp of the bed is perfectly flat and in line with the "frog" block.

The Liogier float is yet to be tested so I can't comment yet on the use of this alone but if it performs like the handle maker's rasp...then I'm looking forward to excellent results....






....now it's sharp that is!

The chisel is great to use...






...BUT...you have to make sure it's square and refresh the burr often..that's what I found anyway.

Bill Carter's page on techniques is a good source of information in creating these finishing chisels and using them...

CLICK HERE FOR LINK

Hope this helps you Tony.

Jimi


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## bugbear (20 Oct 2014)

jimi43":2456vkc3 said:


> The chisel is great to use...
> 
> ...BUT...you have to make sure it's square and refresh the burr often..that's what I found anyway.
> 
> ...



I'm confused - in Bill's write up (thanks for the link) he grinds the chisel upside down, so the burr is formed on the top, away
from the working edge, which is in the normal place, albeit with a steep bevel.


Bill Carter":2456vkc3 said:


> After you have ground it upside down the burr is at the bottom which is the top of the chisel, you ignore this, just turn the chisel the right way up and it is now ready for use, what could be more simple?


So why does the _burr_ need "refreshing"? It doesn't even touch anything when the chisel is in use.

I can understand the _edge_ would need regrinding, of course.

If OTOH you're grinding the opposite way up to Bill, perhaps you've discovered a new technique.

BugBear


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## swagman (22 Oct 2014)

Not specifically Planemaker Floats, but I would recommend the Sapphire finish over the standard finish of Logier hand stitched rasps . The Standard finish I purchased are now badly worn after 6 months of use on hardwoods, whereas the Sapphire ones are as good as the day I purchased them. 

http://www.liogier-france.fr/expertise- ... hniques-en

Stewie;


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## jimi43 (22 Oct 2014)

swagman":3s9gzzw1 said:


> Not specifically Planemaker Floats, but I would recommend the Sapphire finish over the standard finish of Logier hand stitched rasps . The Standard finish I purchased are now badly worn after 6 months of use on hardwoods, whereas the Sapphire ones are as good as the day I purchased them.
> 
> http://www.liogier-france.fr/expertise- ... hniques-en
> 
> Stewie;



Not that I use mine as much as you Stewie but the Sapphire range certainly seem to last...my handle maker's rasp is as good as the day I bought it too.

Jimi


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## bugbear (22 Oct 2014)

swagman":3ra76fcq said:


> Not specifically Planemaker Floats, but I would recommend the Sapphire finish over the standard finish of Logier hand stitched rasps . The Standard finish I purchased are now badly worn after 6 months of use on hardwoods, whereas the Sapphire ones are as good as the day I purchased them.
> 
> http://www.liogier-france.fr/expertise- ... hniques-en
> 
> Stewie;



That's a bit of a worry; with a normal Liogier Cabinet rasp from Dieter Schmid costing
€80, I'd hope for a bit more than 6 months out of it.

However - when you say "hardwoods" do you mean normal, nice hardwoods
like we have in Europe, or those silicaceous Aussie nightmares that
provoked Stanley Aus into making and selling high speed steel plane blades?

And when you say 6 months, can you (try to) give a back-of-the-envelope
estimate as to how many shop-hours the rasps were in use?

I'm just trying to contextualise wheat you're saying.

BugBear


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## swagman (22 Oct 2014)

Hi bugbear. 

(Logier hand stitched rasps) (Based on 3hrs use over a 24hr week) = 72hrs (6 month period). 

Hardest timber species over that time period;

Jarrah (aust) .Yanka 8.5 
Merbau (SE asia). Yanka 8.6. 

http://www.monarotimber.com.au/sp_jarrah.htm
Click on timber species to get additional details. 

Stewie;


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## JohnPW (24 Oct 2014)

bugbear":stevr191 said:


> jimi43":stevr191 said:
> 
> 
> > The chisel is great to use...
> ...



It does read like Bill Carter uses a 90 degree cutting edge without a burr.


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## jimi43 (24 Oct 2014)

Another good reason to go to the MAC Timbers event on the 30th November then...

You can probably ask him...he's usually there and Mike is calling him to check to see if he can make it again.

Jim


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## Eric The Viking (24 Oct 2014)

Jimi: Two thoughts:

1. can you use a small diamond plate on the float, instead of a saw file, to reduce wear to the sharpening tool? Not owning a float, I was wondering how you sharpen it - do you flatten the angled "back" of the "tooth" or what?

2. Would your "90deg bevel" chisel work wth a very slight bevel - say 3deg off a right angle - or are you setting it up like a scraper? It looks like a nice precision way of cleaning up certain types of surface.

E.


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## jimi43 (25 Oct 2014)

Eric The Viking":3c3mvcu3 said:


> Jimi: Two thoughts:
> 
> 1. can you use a small diamond plate on the float, instead of a saw file, to reduce wear to the sharpening tool? Not owning a float, I was wondering how you sharpen it - do you flatten the angled "back" of the "tooth" or what?
> 
> ...



Watcha "Eric"....

I am currently trying to put my hands on the diamond plate I have...little credit card one...and I'll have a go mate and report back..but frankly..it's soddin' sharp as it is with the file. The Nicholson as I say..does not appear to have suffered in the encounter.

The chisel is definitely a scraper so no..a bevel would destroy the effect methinks. Check out Bill's techniques page...it is rather special what he uses all sorts of profile chisels to do...and the best thing is..they are "knackered" anyway...love it!

Jimi


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## Sheffield Tony (25 Oct 2014)

I thought I had a good idea when I tried sharpening my float with a triangular slip store, but the results were not so good as a saw file -don't really understand why. 

With regards filing technique, I treated it like a thick rip saw.

I have exchanged PMs with Noel Liogier, nice chap. But I'm no nearer to understanding why it didn't work well out of the box - the grey coatings or paint is my suspicion.


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## swagman (26 Oct 2014)

Not a Logier Float. Just ordered the Luthier Rasp in Sapphire. Looking forward to trialling it. 


Rectangular cross-section, this model has a fine stitching grain (#11) on one side and very fine (#13) one on the other side . Its integrated handle improves its manoeuvrability Used for many finishing works in violin making, but also in woodworking and furniture restoration. Width 25 mm, thickness 4 mm, hand-stitched length 200 mm.

Stewie;

http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.c ... thier.html


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## richarnold (26 Oct 2014)

Not sure if this helps, but I bought some lie Nielsen floats a while back, and strait from the manufacturer they would not have cut butter, but a quick touch up with a saw file transformed them. Having said that I still prefer Bills square edged chisel method for final bedding of the iron on bench planes.
Cheers, Richard


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## swagman (26 Oct 2014)

Hi Richard. I found the same thing when I purchased the LN Bed and Side Floats. I am not totally convinced the tooth shape on these floats are overly compatible with the hardwood beds I generally work with. That's the primary reason I am keen to try out Logiers flat Luthier Rasp with the Sapphire finish. The hand stitched teeth should enable me a much more effective cutting action. 

Stewie;


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## JohnPW (19 Nov 2014)

Re the square ground chisel.

Salaman in Dictionary of Tools, under plane making tools, mentions a chisel with the end ground off square but only by 3mm, ie the 90 degree "bevel" is 3mm high. So it seems it's an established tool, and if you're going to do this to a chisel, you don't need to grind off the whole existing bevel.


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