# How To Buy Hardwoods



## custard

It's clear from a number of recent posts that sourcing hardwoods is a real problem for many woodworkers. It might be useful to get a thread going which aims to take some of the mystery out of the process.

I guess the first thing to recognise is that even though there are thousands of species of trees, there are only a handful of common furniture woods. It's not that they're the only timbers suitable for furniture making, it's more that they're the only ones regularly available in the massive quantities needed to fuel the market. To make your life simple when first starting out you should confine yourself to a very restricted timber palette, in fact I'd recommend choosing just two or three from Ash, Beech, Sweet Chestnut, Oak (American White or European, not American Red), Sycamore, American Cherry, American Black Walnut, or Maple. All of these are widely available. At least at the beginning forget about Holly, Swiss Pear, Zebrano, Macassar Ebony, Yew, Wenge, or any other temptingly attractive timbers, the fact is they're difficult to source except sporadically from specialist yards. You're far better off having good stocks of two or three timbers rather than individual boards from lots of different species, that won't yield enough consistent timber for any one project, and any left over timber can't be carried forward to your next project.

Having chosen a fairly common timber your next step is to identify a yard that supplies smallish quantities in a range of thicknesses and has a clear pricing structure. Don't expect to get the very cheapest prices out there. You should probably rank reasonable quality and ease of buying above out and out bargain hunting. 

I'm more familiar with timber suppliers in the South East, but somewhere like SL Hardwoods would fit the bill,

https://www.slhardwoods.co.uk/products/ ... awn-boards

There are equivalent retailers all over the country, many of them have regular delivery rounds and can drop timber off at your door.

The next step is to decide how much timber you need. You should always have a plan and a cutting list before starting a project. But a good rule of thumb is to remember there's about a cubic foot of sawn timber in a project like this,







To be safe, you'll need a bit extra, say 1.5 to 2.0 cubic feet. But if you're restricting yourself to two or three timbers that's okay, because you can just carry left over stocks forward to the next project.

If you order, sight unseen, from a yard like this you'll almost certainly get _flat sawn_ boards where the end grain looks like this,






To make it clearer the end grain will conform to this sort of shape,






Look at the face of a flat sawn board and the grain will look like this,






In other words there's "cathedral" grain in the centre, petering out to rift or quarter sawn grain at the edges. This illustrates it more clearly,






Why is that? You'll read that flat sawing gives a greater yield from the log. In fact the truth is a bit more devious, timber mills cut flat sawn because it makes a highly variable natural product like timber into something a tiny bit closer to a standardised, homogenous commodity.


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## custard

Flat sawing gives you, the user, one key benefit. It makes it easier for you to joint up narrow boards to produce wider panels. Look at it this way, here are two flat sawn boards laid side by side,






You get a fairly harmonious joint. But look what happens when you start to try and joint up wilder grained boards,






To my eye that looks pretty nasty, the sort of careless matching I associate with Oak Furniture Land and other bargain basement manufacturers who just throw their boards together in whatever order they come to hand. Flat sawn boards from plantation grown trees tend to be much more uniform.

The problem you have as a maker is that sometimes you'll want rift sawn stock (for legs for example) or quarter sawn stock (for rails and stiles for example). To get this you have two options, either trim your components from the edges of your boards, or order some especially thick boards and take vertical slices out of them. In reality this is yet another reason to restrict yourself to just two or three timbers, it allows you to build up a stock of different thickness boards.

Another question is should you get sawn boards or Planed All Round (PAR). My recommendation is sawn boards every time. If you haven't got a thicknesser, or your project is too big for hand planing, I can see the attraction of PAR. But in reality it's no cheaper and most yards do a fairly sloppy job of planing to thickness, so you may well find some cupping or tear out, and the boards are unlikely to have clean enough edges for jointing together into wider panels.

How much will your timber cost? Well, if you go to the SL Hardwood website you'll get some indication. As I said, yards like this aren't the cheapest, but they tend to offer fair quality and a hassle free buying experience. To put it into context, that Shaker side table with about one cubic foot of timber, if made in American Cherry, would cost you about £60 plus VAT, say £100 to allow for some wastage and spare material. Given that you'll get many hours enjoyment building it, and have a well made piece of useful furniture at the end, that's not bad value for money and hobbies go!


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## custard

However, at some point you'll outgrow timber yards like SL Hardwoods. You'll want to pick through waney edged boards to select your own timber, you'll want particular cuts other than flat sawn, you'll want the guarantee of consistent colour by sourcing all your timber from the same log, or you'll be searching for particular grain patterns to make unique pieces of furniture.

At this stage you'll just have to accept that you're going to have to put a lot more effort into timber buying. You'll have to identify more specialist yards that stock "boules" or "flitches", that's entire logs that have been through sawn. Again I can only speak for the South East, but it will mean getting into your car and driving out to yards like Tyler Hardwoods or English Woodlands Timber. These are more daunting environments, you won't have pre-priced boards or standardised price lists. The yard staff won't stand around while you dither, you'll need to have the skill to appraise a rough sawn board and make up you mind promptly. You'll also need to be fit enough to clamber around stacks of timber and possibly cross cut boards by hand to fit in your vehicle.

If this sounds too much there are a few half way houses between these two extremes. Yards like Surrey Timbers, Timberline, Yandles, or possibly the Essex yard that was recently linked to fall into a middle ground where waney edged boards are individually priced and it's a bit friendlier for the uncertain buyer. Again, don't expect the cheapest prices, these yards often comb other bigger yards for the best stock and then apply their own mark up. But for the hobbyist or high end furniture maker is that really a serious problem?

One of the first hurdles you'll encounter is that waney edged, sawn boards tend to be impenetrably grubby. For consistency I'm sticking to using photos of American Black Walnut, well this is what a waney edged sawn board of ABW might well look like,






However, most yards will agree to you taking a few shavings off with a block plane or a box scraper so that you can read the true surface, something like this,






And the other prizes you'll find at these more specialist yards are the possibility of book matching with solid timber using sequential boards from the same log. These are two book matched Walnut boards,






When these are jointed together you get a superb panel that would make a fabulous table top or cabinet top with an almost invisible joint line,


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## custard

Once you've made the decision to move up to specialist timber yards there are other benefits you can look forward to. One is wider boards. The basic bread and butter yards like SL hardwoods with their flat sawn stock, will normally top out at about 300mm wide boards, they may have the occasional wider board in certain timbers like Oak, but 300mm is about as wide as you'll normally get, and furthermore you'll probably pay a premium even for that. With specialist, waney edged yards however the sky's the limit. Staying with American Black Walnut here are some beautiful waney edged boards that came from Tylers,






The board in the front is a clear 650mm wide, just enough to yield an entire computer desk top from a single board. The boards at the back are 14' long and 400mm wide, under the grime they're heavily rippled and Tylers had four of them, sequential from the same log. That's enough for a book matched 14 seater dining table.

Keep your eyes open in yards like Tylers or English Woodlands Timbers and you might find extraordinary boards like this heavily rippled ABW,






At the very least you'll have the option of buying _unsteamed_ Black Walnut. Virtually all the American Black Walnut you'll find in a bread and butter yard like SL Hardwoods will be steamed. This blends in the sapwood and makes for a more uniform, homogenous product, again it's moving variable timber to being more like a commodity. That's all well and good, but steaming tends also tends to make ABW a bit flat and bland. Unsteamed ABW can deliver really sparkling grain like this,






You'll find wastage will shoot up on a board like this because you'll have to cut away all the sap (and with Walnut you pay for sap, it's sold on a "sap no fault" basis), but isn't that a price worth paying for amazing timber like this?


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## Honest John

Well done Custard. A really useful post for us lesser mortals. Although I live n the North, I love visiting Yandles, which in wood yard terms is as good as it gets for me.


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## custard

Even at more "standardised" yards you'll still have to be aware of some potential problems with ABW. I mentioned that Walnut is almost always sold on a "sap no fault" basis. A bit of sap on just one side of a board is something most of us could live with, but what if the _best_ side of a board has thick bands of sap like this? Sorry I got the photos wrong, look at the end of the post!  






As the small buyer the hard fact is you're that bit more likely to receive these kind of boards. You could try returning them, or explaining before hand that you won't accept sap on both sides, but it's something you need to be prepared for. It's another reason to select your boards in person, even if that means going to a yard like Surrey Timbers where there'll be a bit of premium for the privilege.

Indeed every timber has it's own unique pitfalls. Off the top of my head here are some of the others,

*American Cherry*. Excessive number of black resin pockets. Too sappy. English Cherry is a cheaper substitute, personally I like it, but be aware it's often field grown with wild grain that makes jointing boards together very difficult. Cherry ages beautifully, taking on a lovely patination after just a few years. It can be slightly blotchy to finish but time cures that. It's easy to work and kind on your tools. I would strongly recommend American Cherry for your first hardwood experiments, it's also a natural match for Shaker style projects. Cherry used to be called "poor man's Mahogany", but it's now a far more fashionable timber than Mahogany, plus it has the huge benefit of being a renewable, temperate zone timber, so no one will think you're Jack the Ripper for using it. 

*Oak*. There's a bit of an epidemic of yellow stain at the moment, that's a drying fault from being rushed through kilning with inadequate air drying before hand. If you buy from a yard that does there own kilning (like Tylers) you won't get this, it's more of a problem in smaller yards that buy in ready kilned stock purely on price. Oak is often available graded, for furniture making don't skimp, you want the highest grade available. Oak is also one of the very few timbers where you can often specify quarter sawn even from a "standardised" yard. You may want to do this for the distinctive medullary rays you get with quarter sawn Oak. Be aware though that medullary rays come in all sorts of shapes and mixing them up within a single project can be a bit jarring. Personally I favour "spidery" rays like this,






Rather than "splodgy" rays like this, but this really is just a personal preference!






*Beech*. Beech comes in two versions, steamed and unsteamed. personally I like the slightly pink tinge you get with steaming. But that's a personal choice, the important thing is to specify one or the other and then stick to it, mixing up the two in one project looks messy. Beech is one of the cheapest hardwoods, but it can quickly get a bit boring. It works well with mixed hardwood/plywood projects though.

*Sweet Chestnut*. Sweet Chestnut isn't as well known as it deserves to be. It's very similar to Oak except it's a bit paler and doesn't have medullary rays. It's also widely available and very affordable (as far as hardwoods go that is!), the reason it's affordable is commercial planters often include some Chestnut amongst Oak because it can be harvested much earlier so they can get some cash in before they pop their clogs, it's got much narrower sap bands so for any given tree diameter you get a higher yield than Oak. If you want to stick to traditional furniture making techniques you'd use Oak for your show faces and Sweet Chestnut as the secondary timber for backs, drawer sides, etc. Whatever you do don't buy _Horse Chestnut_ if it's offered to you by a local tree surgeon, it's hopeless for furniture making. 

*Sycamore*. Be very careful when buying Sycamore, most of it is fairly grey and often has sticker stains. The stuff to look out for is the bright white boards that are sometimes called "Arctic Sycamore". Buying bargain basement Sycamore sight unseen is just asking for trouble. Rippled Sycamore is probably the most widely available of the heavily figured timbers. There's normally some for sale in at least one of my local yards.

*Ash*. It's very common to find Ash with a pale brown staining, especially around the centre of the tree. It's sometimes sold as "Olive Ash", if you want a pale clean look then specify upfront that you don't want any Olive Ash, like Walnut Sap it's often sold as not being a fault. Ash isn't an easy timber to finish, it really needs grain filling and that's a bit trickier with a pale timber.

*Maple*. Maple has a surprising range of colour variation, from white to yellow to pink. They're all attractive in their own way, but you don't want to mix them up within a single project. Buy a bit extra per project and state you want a consistent colour match.

I'm sure there are lots of other things but it's time I had some dinner! Hopefully other people can chime in with their timber buying experiences.

Oops. I messed up the first photo. It should have been this one,


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## Steve Maskery

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## SteveF

what a great write up
thankyou for spending your time to make our experience easier to understand

Steve


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## Alpha-Dave

Great post, thank you.


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## davem62

Thanks for a great post 
many thanks david


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## garethharvey

Excellent post, thank you


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## thetyreman

thanks for the write up custard, I really want to try american cherry in particular, sounds like nice wood to work with


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## John15

Many thanks Custard for these very informative and easy to understand posts.

John


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## Flynnwood

Thanks Custard for taking the time/effort for a truly illuminating post !


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## MattRoberts

Brilliant guide, thanks custard! A great read


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## rxh

Excellent. I think this should be made a "sticky" thread at the top of the page.


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## Brian18741

I second that!

Great write up Custard, thanks for continuing to contribute such worth while and insightful knowledge for all of us perusing this hobby with limited time or resources. You're a great help! 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk


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## Steve Maskery

Just my 2p.
Custard is SE-based. For us Midlanders, Whitmore's near Hinkley is the place to go for a wide range of good quality timber, like ABW and AC. You have to book an appointment if you want to select your own boards, and you will pay a premium for that service, because someone has to stand over you, move boards for you and wait for you to say yay or nay, but you will get top quality material to work with.
There is another Midlands provider, Sykes. I went there once for a board of Beluga. It isn't Beluga, but the proper name escapes me at the moment. Something beginning with B. The rotary-cut veneer is called Kevasingo. Someone will tell me what I have forgotten, I'm sure. The going rate was £60 a cube at the time, they charged me £90 because I was buying just one (fairly large, IMO) board. I didn't like that, not been back.
S


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## marcros

bubinga?


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## custard

marcros":t2czvm94 said:


> bubinga?



No more Bubinga by the way, in January of this year Bubinga (along with all Rosewoods including Cocobolo, Kingwood, and African Blackwood) went onto the CITES list. You'll find the odd bit still for sale in a few yards, but basically that's it. If you fancy some Wenge you'd best get your skates on, word is that's going to follow and in any case Wenge quality has gone right down in the past year or two.

Is this a bad thing? No, it's probably a very good thing. One way I've heard it put is this, if the Earth was 46 years old then we humans have been around for 4 hours and the industrial revolution happened just 1 minute ago, but in those 60 seconds over half of all the world's forests have been cut down. Ouch!

Bottom line is tropical timbers are yesterday's materials, very soon trying to sell anything made from a tropical timber will be like trying to sell something made from ivory or panda fur. Some of the coolest furniture makers I know are now exclusively using Douglas Fir and Hazel! That's probably going a bit far, but temperate zone timbers are definitely the way ahead.


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## Racers

Thanks custard, brilliant posts as usual, you have made a massive positive contribution to this forum. 

Pete


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## gwr

Great post custard! as much if not more detailed information than any book on timber that I have seen.


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## Steve Maskery

I have a mirror frame made from bubinga and kevasingo and I have nowhere to put it.


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## Duncan A

That was a great post Custard. Thank you!

Duncan


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## Dokkodo

Really informative for the self taught (teaching) like me, thanks!

On the subject of CITES and timber scarcity generally, there's a business (or businesses) to be had making better use of what people grow in their back gardens. I recently hired a guy in London to cut down an enormous bit of cedar for me so I could take it away. He wasnt a tree surgeon, a gardener in fact, but also a chainsaw mill enthusiast and hobbyist. He gets called by a few tree surgeons when they are felling trees when he can come and mill in situ and take them away. There are a few problems with this, they are usually in peoples gardens, the tree surgeons dont want to hang around after a long days work for even more, and there are often access issues, but he saves some and gets some decent timber from it, though he says he hasnt done much about selling much of it yet. 

Sounds like a huge amount goes to waste though, its not economical for tree surgeons to do much but chop it up and get rid. For example, he said in the garden of a multimillion pound London house where they were landscaping, the owners had 15 or 20 oaks cut down. He managed to plank one big one up in the time he had, the rest was burned. But when he gets lucky he gets good sized yew and other interesting timbers, I guess if you were lucky you could get some rarities, trees which were planted ornamentally and almost impossible to find commercially otherwise.

I dont know whether it would be profitable but it would definitely be rewarding...


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## marcros

custard":lgik630j said:


> marcros":lgik630j said:
> 
> 
> 
> bubinga?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the coolest furniture makers I know are now exclusively using Douglas Fir and Hazel! That's probably going a bit far, but temperate zone timbers are definitely the way ahead.
Click to expand...


Custard, who should we google to see examples of furniture made with these timbers?


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## Phil Pascoe

Steve Maskery":1m64wjk0 said:


> J
> There is another Midlands provider, Sykes. I went there once for a board of Beluga. It isn't Beluga, but the proper name escapes me at the moment. Something beginning with B. The rotary-cut veneer is called Kevasingo. Someone will tell me what I have forgotten, I'm sure.




From Wiki - Guibourtia demeusei - African Rosewood, Akume, Bubinga, Ebana, Essingang, Kevazingo, Kewazingo, Okweni, Ovang, Waka
The genus is well known for its luxury timbers. The best-known timber is bubinga (Guibourtia demeusei, aka kevazingo).


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## custard

marcros":28bazqdn said:


> custard":28bazqdn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marcros":28bazqdn said:
> 
> 
> 
> bubinga?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the coolest furniture makers I know are now exclusively using Douglas Fir and Hazel! That's probably going a bit far, but temperate zone timbers are definitely the way ahead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Custard, who should we google to see examples of furniture made with these timbers?
Click to expand...


If you look at the work of Sebastian Cox or Max Lamb you can see the direction many contemporary makers are taking. Strong environmental message, sustainability to the fore, local and coppiced timbers, ultra clean designs, clear flat finishes, pale timbers emphasised with white tinted finishes; these are all design cues that I suspect we'll be seeing much more frequently in the future

https://www.benchmarkfurniture.com/Furn ... anks-Bench

http://www.sebastiancox.co.uk/oak-and-hazel/

https://www.heals.com/designer/sebastian-cox.html

https://www.benchmarkfurniture.com/Furn ... -Sideboard


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## monkeybiter

Thanks for that Custard, hideous. I suppose you have to look at that sort of stuff to stay current, but...
I've noticed people seem to like that 'frame on the outside' stuff but to me it looks like an exploded diagram, and shingles on furniture, so that's Sebastian Cox off my lottery-win shopping list, and as for that other fellow, that bench with integral storage and ill-fitting hatch, is it a dry fit to check the joints, before further shaping?
I must be way out of step with the current aesthetic, but I wouldn't give any of that house room, regardless of price. Thanks for the education.


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## Kalimna

Thanks for a very informative set of posts there, Custard. May I ask why Horse Chestnut is not recommended? I ask specifically because I have recently received a couple of blocks from David Dykes' place in W Sussex to build some guitars. I know guitars and furniture have a different set of criteria, but so far it works beautifully, so long as you dont mind the somewhat random grain patterning.
As an aside, I am also in the process of building a Hal Taylor rocking chair from sweet chestnut, and what a lovely golden creamy brown timber it is. Like oak without the density, but with that distinctive smell. It also has some stunning ripple to it 

Cheers,
Adam

P.S. Another vote here to make this a sticky.


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## Bodgers

Custard, do you have any experience of Hornbeam - in both working with it and finding it?

It is native to the UK but I have only found one timber yard that lists it on their price list, but they never seem to have any stock.

I have an ECE plane and some tool handles made with it and it seems to have a real nice creamy tone and obviously it is pretty tough. Was thinking of making some replacement handles and odds and ends out of it...

Looks like there are a few firewood dealers selling some!

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk


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## MattRoberts

Bodgers, I have a bunch of 'mini slabs' (resawn thick branches) of what I believe is hornbeam - you're welcome to a bunch of it if you'd like?


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## Bodgers

MattRoberts":2lu14o97 said:


> Bodgers, I have a bunch of 'mini slabs' (resawn thick branches) of what I believe is hornbeam - you're welcome to a bunch of it if you'd like?


PM sent...

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk


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## Newbie_Neil

Custard, thank you for this excellent thread. Neil


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## Kalimna

I have a couple of smallish planks of hornbeam - some straight and some ripply grained. Lovely to work, but only about 3/4-1" thick. If there was anything specific you wanted, I could cut a bit off.
Adam


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## Sawdust=manglitter

Excellent post again. another +1 for this as a sticky!

Also, I think it would be very beneficial to many if there was a sticky similar to "The List" of online tool sites, but for timber yards or good sources of timber which was sorted by region and stated things like what kind of timbers stocked, choose the timbers yourself or not, online order etc??


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## custard

Bodgers":bt1qejxm said:


> Custard, do you have any experience of Hornbeam - in both working with it and finding it?
> 
> It is native to the UK but I have only found one timber yard that lists it on their price list, but they never seem to have any stock.
> 
> I have an ECE plane and some tool handles made with it and it seems to have a real nice creamy tone and obviously it is pretty tough. Was thinking of making some replacement handles and odds and ends out of it...
> 
> Looks like there are a few firewood dealers selling some!
> 
> Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk




Hornbeam isn't a commercial timber, so your best source would be a tree surgeon. It's common enough and a lot gets sold for firewood. That or take a stroll around Epping Forest, it's by far the most common tree there and the ground's littered with Hornbeam branches! For most practical purposes you could substitute Beech for Hornbeam, they're both very hard with indistinct grain.


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## custard

Sawdust=manglitter":23gy78vr said:


> I think it would be very beneficial to many if there was a sticky similar to "The List" of online tool sites, but for timber yards or good sources of timber which was sorted by region and stated things like what kind of timbers stocked, choose the timbers yourself or not, online order etc??



+1

I once trained at a workshop that ran regular open days, these were well attended by hobbyists and two questions got asked over and over again. "How do you sharpen your tools?", and "Where do you buy your wood?". There's probably too much talk about sharpening on this forum, but not nearly enough about timber buying.


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## Lonsdale73

Steve Maskery":n1do0h7e said:


> Just my 2p.
> Custard is SE-based. For us Midlanders, Whitmore's near Hinkley is the place to go for a wide range of good quality timber, like ABW and AC. You have to book an appointment if you want to select your own boards, and you will pay a premium for that service, because someone has to stand over you, move boards for you and wait for you to say yay or nay, but you will get top quality material to work with.
> There is another Midlands provider, Sykes. I went there once for a board of Beluga. It isn't Beluga, but the proper name escapes me at the moment. Something beginning with B. The rotary-cut veneer is called Kevasingo. Someone will tell me what I have forgotten, I'm sure. The going rate was £60 a cube at the time, they charged me £90 because I was buying just one (fairly large, IMO) board. I didn't like that, not been back.
> S



Haha! There's a lot of Scots (probably quite a few English too) tgat would relish the prospect of feediding your bandsaw with some Sturgeon.


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## cowfoot

Really useful information Custard, thanks again.
I've used Tyler Hardwoods a couple of times now and can't wait for my next visit - they're really friendly in the office and the yard. I'd recommend phoning ahead to let them know you're coming. I hope amateurs/hobbyists don't get put off by trade yards - it took me twenty years of almost daily visits to Morans in Kilburn to get a nod of recognition, but they're not all moody so-and-sos!


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## sundaytrucker

custard":24zqffex said:


> If you look at the work of Sebastian Cox or Max Lamb you can see the direction many contemporary makers are taking. Strong environmental message, sustainability to the fore, local and coppiced timbers, ultra clean designs, clear flat finishes, pale timbers emphasised with white tinted finishes; these are all design cues that I suspect we'll be seeing much more frequently in the future
> 
> https://www.benchmarkfurniture.com/Furn ... anks-Bench
> 
> http://www.sebastiancox.co.uk/oak-and-hazel/
> 
> https://www.heals.com/designer/sebastian-cox.html
> 
> https://www.benchmarkfurniture.com/Furn ... -Sideboard




Thank you for the informative thread and also the above links. Some interesting work and in tune with my own taste and thoughts on furniture moving forward.


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## Dokkodo

monkeybiter":i9mapcoe said:


> Thanks for that Custard, hideous. I suppose you have to look at that sort of stuff to stay current, but...
> I've noticed people seem to like that 'frame on the outside' stuff but to me it looks like an exploded diagram, and shingles on furniture, so that's Sebastian Cox off my lottery-win shopping list, and as for that other fellow, that bench with integral storage and ill-fitting hatch, is it a dry fit to check the joints, before further shaping?
> I must be way out of step with the current aesthetic, but I wouldn't give any of that house room, regardless of price. Thanks for the education.



scathing reviews are always so much fun to read, whether you agree or not...


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## custard

Kalimna":29ychsjf said:


> May I ask why Horse Chestnut is not recommended?



It's exceptionally weak, so weak in fact joinery and legs are liable to fail. It's rot prone unless kept bone dry and the surface tends to wooliness with fibres lifting even under a finish.

You'll find loads of it around, I think (but I'm not sure) that it's susceptible to some disease or blight which means it's currently being felled in large quantities. I've seen it for sale as turner's rounds so maybe it turns okay?


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## marcros

bleeding canker I think. a big one has had to be felled by my parents because of this.


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## Jamster21

Also, I think it would be very beneficial to many if there was a sticky similar to "The List" of online tool sites, but for timber yards or good sources of timber which was sorted by region and stated things like what kind of timbers stocked, choose the timbers yourself or not, online order etc??[/quote]

+1 from a new starter for both this thread as a sticky (or a wiki!) and also a where can I get my wood list... I've just discovered Duffield Timber - would be interested to hear where you think they fall ...


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## Mr T

As with most of your posts that was a delight to read Custard, lucid, well argued and informative, have you ever considered teaching?!



Jamster21":101o7xny said:


> +1 from a new starter for both this thread as a sticky (or a wiki!) and also a where can I get my wood list... I've just discovered Duffield Timber - would be interested to hear where you think they fall ...




I am a bit of a fan of Duffields (near Ripon) as a source for beginners and recommend them to my students. They stock most of the species Custard mentions and display them on racks so you can select at your leisure without the yard man ho hummikng beside you. The quality is usually fairly good. They also have some exotics, they have some of these huge boards of bubinga, perhaps it's a good thing that it's going on the CITIES list! 







Many people find their first trip to the wood yard rather intimidating. Unless you go to somewhere like Duffields you are presented with a pack of timber which you have to select from while the yard man waits. How do you decide? You should have drawn up the project and written a cutting list from it. I think many people go to the yard with a specific idea of how they will cut the parts from a board then find that the boards available are not as they expected then find it difficult. It's better to think about the dimensions of the largest pieces to make sure you can get them out but then think more about the total cubic amount you need, so work out before you go and add about 40-50% (if getting waney edged less if straight edge). At the yard select to make sure you can get the longest pieces without too much wastage but then think more about selecting nice pieces up to the cubic amount required. At most yards the yard man will have a gismo that counts up the cubic rate as you go along.

What to look for. Is the board straight? This doesn't matter so much if you are cutting it into short components. Look for cracks and surface checking, this is common in oak. Woodworm, this will usually be in the sapwood which you would probably cut off, although on some species it may extend into the heartwood, eg walnut. Knots, some people like them some don't select according to your taste. Custard talks about cathedral figure and rift sawn, it's worth looking at the end of the pack you can see which boards have this pattern from the end grain. You may want to select rift sawn for legs. Looking at the end helps to locate suitable boards lower down in the pack.

By the way I think it's good etiquette to help the yard man to reassemble the poack after you have sorted through it. Erans you browny points for next time you are there.


Chris


----------



## Bodgers

Mr T":ilowgutc said:


> As with most of your posts that was a delight to read Custard, lucid, well argued and informative, have you ever considered teaching?!
> 
> 
> 
> Jamster21":ilowgutc said:
> 
> 
> 
> +1 from a new starter for both this thread as a sticky (or a wiki!) and also a where can I get my wood list... I've just discovered Duffield Timber - would be interested to hear where you think they fall ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am a bit of a fan of Duffields (near Ripon) as a source for beginners and recommend them to my students. They stock most of the species Custard mentions and display them on racks so you can select at your leisure without the yard man ho hummikng beside you. The quality is usually fairly good. They also have some exotics, they have some of these huge boards of bubinga, perhaps it's a good thing that it's going on the CITIES list!
> 
> 
> 
> Many people find their first trip to the wood yard rather intimidating. Unless you go to somewhere like Duffields you are presented with a pack of timber which you have to select from while the yard man waits. How do you decide? You should have drawn up the project and written a cutting list from it. I think many people go to the yard with a specific idea of how they will cut the parts from a board then find that the boards available are not as they expected then find it difficult. It's better to think about the dimensions of the largest pieces to make sure you can get them out but then think more about the total cubic amount you need, so work out before you go and add about 40-50% (if getting waney edged less if straight edge). At the yard select to make sure you can get the longest pieces without too much wastage but then think more about selecting nice pieces up to the cubic amount required. At most yards the yard man will have a gismo that counts up the cubic rate as you go along.
> 
> What to look for. Is the board straight? This doesn't matter so much if you are cutting it into short components. Look for cracks and surface checking, this is common in oak. Woodworm, this will usually be in the sapwood which you would probably cut off, although on some species it may extend into the heartwood, eg walnut. Knots, some people like them some don't select according to your taste. Custard talks about cathedral figure and rift sawn, it's worth looking at the end of the pack you can see which boards have this pattern from the end grain. You may want to select rift sawn for legs. Looking at the end helps to locate suitable boards lower down in the pack.
> 
> By the way I think it's good etiquette to help the yard man to reassemble the poack after you have sorted through it. Erans you browny points for next time you are there.
> 
> 
> Chris
Click to expand...

Good info about Duffield. After John Boddy folded, other than Scawton Sawmill near Thirsk, it was beginning to look fairly grim for places to by hardwood round these parts. 

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk


----------



## Newbie_Neil

Hi Chris,



Mr T":2993q7ov said:


> As with most of your posts that was a delight to read Custard, lucid, well argued and informative.



*+ 1* =D> =D> 

It is always a pleasure to read posts from professional woodworkers, as I feel you all add so much to the forum. 

Neil


----------



## Newbie_Neil

custard":30x9e6wf said:


> Sawdust=manglitter":30x9e6wf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be very beneficial to many if there was a sticky similar to "The List" of online tool sites, but for timber yards or good sources of timber which was sorted by region and stated things like what kind of timbers stocked, choose the timbers yourself or not, online order etc??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1
Click to expand...



Alright, I'll put my hand up to putting together a list of timber yards . I'll start a separate thread to get things going. I've started the thread here.

Neil


----------



## Kalimna

custard":dxegsi72 said:


> Kalimna":dxegsi72 said:
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask why Horse Chestnut is not recommended?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's exceptionally weak, so weak in fact joinery and legs are liable to fail. It's rot prone unless kept bone dry and the surface tends to wooliness with fibres lifting even under a finish.
> 
> You'll find loads of it around, I think (but I'm not sure) that it's susceptible to some disease or blight which means it's currently being felled in large quantities. I've seen it for sale as turner's rounds so maybe it turns okay?
Click to expand...



Thanks for that, Custard. It's interesting you say that because some of the horse chestnut I am using for guitar bodies does feel a little 'soft', but some of it gives the impression of being more like a sycamore in it's shavings and surface finish. Having said that, there is no finish on it yet, and it will have almost no structural role (short of holding some pickups and a neck).

Cheers,
Adam


----------



## woodworm2017

hi custard,
well written and very informative and excellent read.
regards,
ahmed


----------



## Blockplane

Thank you Custard - +1 to the request to stickyise this thread


----------



## DrDerrick

Good advice


----------



## pollys13

Thanks for a very interesting and informative read.


----------



## kirso

very informative read. Thanks for posting


----------



## siggy_7

Adding my voice of appreciation to this very informative guide, thanks Custard.



Mr T":7jpvvdpd said:


> Many people find their first trip to the wood yard rather intimidating. Unless you go to somewhere like Duffields you are presented with a pack of timber which you have to select from while the yard man waits. How do you decide? You should have drawn up the project and written a cutting list from it. I think many people go to the yard with a specific idea of how they will cut the parts from a board then find that the boards available are not as they expected then find it difficult. It's better to think about the dimensions of the largest pieces to make sure you can get them out but then think more about the total cubic amount you need, so work out before you go and add about 40-50% (if getting waney edged less if straight edge). At the yard select to make sure you can get the longest pieces without too much wastage but then think more about selecting nice pieces up to the cubic amount required. At most yards the yard man will have a gismo that counts up the cubic rate as you go along.
> 
> What to look for. Is the board straight? This doesn't matter so much if you are cutting it into short components. Look for cracks and surface checking, this is common in oak. Woodworm, this will usually be in the sapwood which you would probably cut off, although on some species it may extend into the heartwood, eg walnut. Knots, some people like them some don't select according to your taste. Custard talks about cathedral figure and rift sawn, it's worth looking at the end of the pack you can see which boards have this pattern from the end grain. You may want to select rift sawn for legs. Looking at the end helps to locate suitable boards lower down in the pack.



Some great advice in this. I quickly found the best way to buy what I needed when self-selecting was to go armed with my full cut list ordered from longest/widest timbers first and also sorted by thickness. I then try to work out how to get at least the biggest components from the boards I find at the yard and buy enough linear metres for the rest with some extra.


----------



## Chris152

This is a brilliant thread Custard - thank you. 

I'm new to working with wood and reading your advice has really helped. I visited two timber suppliers today, Timbersource (near Shepton Mallet) and Yandles (near Taunton). Both good, but chalk and cheese in terms of customer experience.

Timbersource is a huge warehouse with a posh reception/ office, I could look quite briefly at the stacks of wood accompanied by staff (wearing a high vis jacket), but when it came to buying wasn't given the option to sort through. And I had the feeling it wouldn't have made a lot of difference - the wood all looked very standard, high quality but little variety. Which I quite like the idea of for the work I'm trying to do. I only bought one sawn 3m length of beech - I had a more complete cutting list but to get it pse while I waited (something they make a lot of on their web site) turned out too expensive for me. 

Yandles has so much diversity of wood type and variety of shapes/ sizes I didn't know where to turn, just amazing. Each piece is available to touch and inspect, identified and priced. A member of staff came with me (because I asked for advice) to help identify what I needed and my naive questions were no problem for him. Squaring and planing prices seemed very reasonable to me. The only real problem I had was trying to make my mind up what I wanted (I left with some ash and maple) and getting out of there before it got dark - a brilliant place. 

This isn't supposed to be a review of the two suppliers, and I can see myself using both for different needs. But the difference between the relatively corporate approach of the one and the personal approach of the other really struck me. I bought wood from both for table tops, and the question now is which I go back to to get wood for the legs and things...

Thanks again, C


----------



## Tasky

Had a couple of squizzes through already, so will re-read until it all sinks in and I feel confident enough to walk into one of these places and find what I need to get started. 

Many thanks Custard!!


----------



## custard

There's been a few mentions recently of a problem with Oak called "Yellowstain". During the past few days I've been machining some quarter sawn Oak drawer sides and I found an example.






If you look at the very top edge of this board you can see an area of dirty yellow discolouration.






Looking down from the top you can see another common feature of Oak Yellowstain, it's often accompanied by quite a bit of internal checking.

I've been hearing increasing reports of this problem over the past few years, it normally looks like a palm sized patch of discolouration but it's sometimes hard to spot on rough sawn boards. I understand it's caused by pushing Oak too quickly through the drying/kilning process in an effort to cut costs. You won't find this if you buy from established yards that do their own kilning (like say Tylers or English Woodland Timbers), but it's becoming more common in yards that buy in ready kilned timber and source strictly on price.

It's disappointing that a lot of this seems to be accepted by customers, unless there's push back then yards will increase kilning speeds even more and the problem will just get worse. It's a fault, plain and simple, so if you receive any then return it.


----------



## thetyreman

hi custard, can this happen in pine as well and other woods? or is it just on oak?


----------



## custard

thetyreman":54n62tix said:


> hi custard, can this happen in pine as well and other woods? or is it just on oak?



You can get checking from poor kilning in any timber, but I've only ever heard about yellow stain with Oak. In the past few years I've heard of about a dozen cases, and they've all been Oak.


----------



## Mr T

custard":2ayyly37 said:


> It's disappointing that a lot of this seems to be accepted by customers, unless there's push back then yards will increase kilning speeds even more and the problem will just get worse. It's a fault, plain and simple, so if you receive any then return it.



Just out of interest Custard did you return the oak pictured. I find that surface checking along the medullary rays is more common than it used to be, this again is due to poor kilning. But I must admit I dont' send it back, not assertive enough!

Chris


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## hammer n nails

Very informative post thank you


----------



## Clwydianrange

Brilliant thread, thanks to all who posted


----------



## El Barto

What a great thread. Thanks Custard.

EDIT: In the original post you mention not using American Red Oak. Why is that?


----------



## MARK.B.

Great post , very informative and well written . Curious about that Red oak as well Custard .


----------



## El Barto

I have another question: you mentioned earlier that you think we'll see more sustainable woods being used in the future. That Sebastian Cox furniture uses Hazel, is there any reason not to use it? It grows in such abundance and also fairly straight, I've often wondered if it'd be suitable for spindles or chair legs. I could go up into the woods right now and come back with as many ready grown spindles as I could carry!


----------



## cowfoot

The only problem with Hazel is its size, I would guess. It was traditionally used woven for baskets etc and that’s how Sebastian Cox is using it, really.
Edit - When it comes to homegrown timbers, I was absolutely blown away the first time I saw rippled Sycamore. A bloomin great weed has no business looking that fantastic!


----------



## El Barto

cowfoot":2gdwej0o said:


> The only problem with Hazel is its size, I would guess. It was traditionally used woven for baskets etc and that’s how Sebastian Cox is using it, really.
> Edit - When it comes to homegrown timbers, I was absolutely blown away the first time I saw rippled Sycamore. A bloomin great weed has no business looking that fantastic!



I haven't used Sycamore before but it sounds like I should. I'd definitely be interested in the durability and strength of Hazel for projects where its size could be put to use.


----------



## doctor Bob

What a great thread.
I buy about £4000-£5000 of hardwood per month. Gives me a bit of buying power. 
Labour is my most expensive cost, so I don't send anyone to the yard, all done through verbal ordering with my rep.
I expect it all to be pretty good, if it isn't I have a moan and it's changed over fairly quickly, however it's swings and roundabouts if I can use poorer quality bits in hidden areas I will, but I'll still tell the rep that in future I expect better.

I've really struggled with thicker oak recently through poor drying, 3" and above, lots of shakes.
I always order the best quality timber when possible, the extra cost always seems worth it in the long run. I won't skimp on thickness as well, i'd rather take more off and get clean straight faces than mess around tickling a couple of mil of each side.


----------



## AES

A superb post Custard, very well written and illustrated. A pleasure to read and so clear for people without any knowledge or training in the field (like me). And the add on comments are a great help too, thanks all.

When one stops to think about it, how many other professionals would take the time and effort to pass on their hard-earned knowledge and experience as you have? Posts like yours add great value to this Forum, well worth "stickyness".

Thank you for taking the time, AND the fact that you like few others here, are tempting me to have a go at something "proper".

AES


----------



## Tealeaf

For some reason I did not have permission to Like this thread, but have some applause from me! =D> 

Brilliant info and introduced me to a more or less reasonably local supplier, which I did not know existed but will now get a visit from me.

Thank you!


----------



## ruletheworld

I found it is always cheaper to get hardwoods if you are buying leftovers just need to a bit more creative to make nice together, of course if you have time for that!


----------



## tushi

Well Hardwoods are available at a variety of dealers but remember they will cost in the region of £60 per cubic foot and extra if you want it planing to size
So for rough cut timber thats £60 plus vat generally for a board 1 inch thick 12 inches wide and 12 foot long which sounds a lot of wood but isnt when planed up....


----------



## Nikolaj33

Hi, I am also new to wood working. I stumbled across this thread which was quite good. I wonder if there has been a thread with recomened timber dealers as suggested in this thread?

I am looking for a timber yard in Watford, north-west London where I could get some beech, oak, etc. So far I haven't been so lucky to find anything other than construction timber. One local place did have some mahogany but that's about it. Any suggestions would be great. 

Or are there any good online sellers, on eBay maybe that people can recommend?

Thanks.


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## Chris152

How come this thread isn't a sticky? Has it come unstuck?


----------



## memzey

Try Chiltern Timber in Hemel Hempstead. They have a fairly wide selection of hardwoods and can offer planed or sawn in most. There is a firm nearer to you called Watford Timber but I’ve never used them so can’t comment.


----------



## AES

Not being in UK I don't know about UK timber sellers. But there are a couple of helpful "pointers" permanently available on this Forum.

Starting out on the start page (the one with a list of all the various sections down the LH side), above all that there's a list of headings such as "Reviews", "Misc", and "Local", + a couple of others which I've forgotten. From each there's a drop down menu and from the "Local" tab there's lists of apparently well-known timber merchants sorted by UK region. (There are also other useful things to be found under the other headings including a timber price calculator, and a long list of links which are likely to be interesting to members here).

HTH


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## El Barto

Try here: timber-yards-wip-add-your-favourites-t108370.html


----------



## yetloh

Only just spotted this great thread as I don't tend to visit as often these days, but I'll add my thoughts in case some may find them helpful.

English Woodlands

I have the great good fortune to live only five or six miles from their yard and it is always my first, and usually last, port of call. It has changed quite a bit in the last couple of years or so and there are pluses and minuses to this. On the plus side a new broom has made the place much more efficient, user friendly and well organised. The new man has I believe injected money and this plus increased efficiency has enabled them to make significant investment in the site both in terms of buildings and equipment. The stock is now much more comprehensively sorted with exceptionally wide or fine boards and those displaying ripple in separate racks. The downside is that the exceptional boards are priced accordingly, so the chances of sorting through the stock and finding one or two great boards at a standard price are very small. If you value your time and believe top quality is worth the price, then that’s fine but some of the exceptional stuff can be very expensive indeed because London is only 50 miles away and professionals working at the very top of the market there can pay these prices and still make money. Even so, they do their own drying and do it well and you can still get excellent timber at a sensible price.

Oak 

I love quarter sawn oak, including the medullary rays in all their variety but, if you making something for domestic use and have a female partner, make sure she shares your enthusiasm for them because I have heard of women disliking them on the grounds that they remind them of stretch marks and don’t want them on their furniture!

Sycamore

It baffles me that sycamore is so little used, it is one of my favourite timbers. Yes, it does need careful drying to avoid the dreaded grey stain, but I have bought it from both English Woodlands and W. L. West and never had a duff board. I am sure there must be plenty of other woodyards around the country who are doing a good job with it. It’s a little softer than American hard maple (a fairly close relative) but just as attractive and can often be had with stunning ripple. The biggest bonus is that it doesn’t have to come from the other side of the world. What’s not to like?

Hornbeam

Hornbeam is very pale and a bit bland but is very hard and dense and would make a great bench worktop. I have bought it planked from the National Trust’s estate office at Hatfield Forest in Hertfordshire. It’s not kilned but that’s not a problem if you are patient and are able to air dry it. They also have oak, ash and field maple which has very similar character to American hard maple.

Cherry

I have used American cherry quite a bit and agree that it is very reliable but, for my taste, it's aged rather orange tone is is far less attractive than the paler English cherry. It can be found but isn't really a commercially grown timber.

Other sources 

Thereis no doubt that there is some fine timber felled in fields and gardens. The difficulty is getting it out. Furniture maker, Brendan Devitt Spooner, has a tree surgeon and forrester son and harvests a wide variety timbers in this way which he has sawn and then air dries from which he makes some very fine furniture - I recently saw a gorgeous table of his made from holm oak. Shame he doesn't sell his timber, but his yard is a mouth watering prospect for timber lovers! 

Jim


----------



## Felix

custard said:


> No more Bubinga by the way, in January of this year Bubinga (along with all Rosewoods including Cocobolo, Kingwood, and African Blackwood) went onto the CITES list. You'll find the odd bit still for sale in a few yards, but basically that's it. If you fancy some Wenge you'd best get your skates on, word is that's going to follow and in any case Wenge quality has gone right down in the past year or two.
> 
> Is this a bad thing? No, it's probably a very good thing. One way I've heard it put is this, if the Earth was 46 years old then we humans have been around for 4 hours and the industrial revolution happened just 1 minute ago, but in those 60 seconds over half of all the world's forests have been cut down. Ouch!
> 
> Bottom line is tropical timbers are yesterday's materials, very soon trying to sell anything made from a tropical timber will be like trying to sell something made from ivory or panda fur. Some of the coolest furniture makers I know are now exclusively using Douglas Fir and Hazel! That's probably going a bit far, but temperate zone timbers are definitely the way ahead.


That is a real shame - it's sad that continuity of supply was never at the forefront of the forest owners' minds as much as the dollar signs were. So who's stashing the millions of trees that have been felled to make way for palm oil plantations?


----------



## D_W

Sort of necroposting, but I've built a few guitars (restricted woods are common favorites, but finished guitars have gotten a reprieve from most as they've never really pressured supply). 

Around 10 or 15 years ago, the consumption of rosewoods in China was about a twentieth of what it's become. China has undergone a huge transformation in some areas (economically) and rosewood furniture is a middle/upper middle status symbol there. Their consumption of rosewoods by 2017 had become 10 times the level of consumption that the entire world used a decade earlier. 

This sounds like an old wives tale given pinning the blame only in one place, but one has to remember that the average wage at the beginning of this period was $2k in china and it is probably nearing $10k now. The wages are not spread uniformly there, meaning there is a suddenly flush market of upper middle income folks (Even buy american standards) and the consumption of woods doesn't follow cites exactly, either (as in, Chinese purchasers are more than willing to go to Africa or around asia and mislabel or smuggle woods). 

This same thing occurred win honduras and central america with mahogany. It's a simple issue - find a poor economy with relatively valuable woods and easily purchased local or regional officials and introduce technology and the wood is exhausted quickly (or as is the case with madagascar, a government that is in flux where protection of any such thing is eliminated - every tree of any maturity is quickly gone). 

A quick look at older rosewood vs. the new plantation stuff also suggests that what comes behind won't look the same or be of the same quality (but the plantation rosewood that's become available in the US is still nice stuff - it just has wide growth rings and a different look). 

Internet buying probably hasn't helped, either - local sources (india, for example), can show up on ebay and claim they're selling wood with paperwork (they're not) and ebay generally leaves the listings alone.


----------



## triker64

Very informative article Custard. Are tbere any wood yards up Yorkshire way or do l need to travel south. Might be good excuse to visit family in Midhurst! I have carried 3m boards in the Peugeot before now.


----------



## marcros

triker64 said:


> Very informative article Custard. Are tbere any wood yards up Yorkshire way or do l need to travel south. Might be good excuse to visit family in Midhurst! I have carried 3m boards in the Peugeot before now.



have a look here UK & Ireland TIMBER YARDS - PLEASE Add Your Favourites


----------



## billw

bowmaster said:


> That is a real shame - it's sad that continuity of supply was never at the forefront of the forest owners' minds as much as the dollar signs were. So who's stashing the millions of trees that have been felled to make way for palm oil plantations?



Some gorgeous timbers slowly working their way onto the history list. I'd better stock up on African Blackwood!


----------



## AJS2018

Mr T said:


> I am a bit of a fan of Duffields (near Ripon) as a source for beginners and recommend them to my students. They stock most of the species Custard mentions and display them on racks so you can select at your leisure without the yard man ho hummikng beside you. The quality is usually fairly good. They also have some exotics, they have some of these huge boards of bubinga, perhaps it's a good thing that it's going on the CITIES list!



Great to hear advice from Chris Tribe. couldn’t agree more re Duffields. On my first visit I went to the reception/cash desk and explained I was new to proper timber yards and that woodworking was a serious but new hobby now that I’m retired, I asked if there were rules I should respect and for their advice on picking wood, I knew roughly how much I needed and that it would be a ‘dark’ wood, they were brilliant, showed me around and offered advice. They then left me to find what I wanted, no ‘selling’ or looking over my shoulder, so I didn’t embarrass myself. I’m now on first name terms and feel confident each time I’ve been since.


----------



## danst96

triker64 said:


> Very informative article Custard. Are tbere any wood yards up Yorkshire way or do l need to travel south. Might be good excuse to visit family in Midhurst! I have carried 3m boards in the Peugeot before now.


Duffield Timber near Ripon i have found to be pretty good.


----------



## Amateur

Excellent post.
My two two penny's worth is this.

In an ideal world I'd like to be able to see the surface that I was buying, at the cheapest price with the least defects and cut to the largest size I can get in my car.(LOL)
That's not always possible on rough sawn.

If I'm making up wide boards for larger tops it can be a bit of a hit and miss affair. Not only with matching the grain pattern to an aesthetically pleasing surface but unseen surface defects and splits...which on rough cut timber is unavoidable.


----------



## Picalilli

Does anyone know of any good wood yards that would sell hardwoods in Tyne and Wear or near? There are a few I know of but their websites only show white oak under the hardwood section and ‘Siberian larch’, which I don’t know much about. Just wondering if there’s anywhere within spitting distance that might have more variety?


----------



## MorrisWoodman12

Country: *UK*
Region *East Sussex*
Vendor name: *Wenban Smith Wenban Smith*
Town/City: *Lewes*
Hobby friendly (yes or no): *Yes*
Self select: *Yes*
Home delivery (yes or no): *Yes*
Online ordering (yes or no): *not sure*
Prices visible at the yard (yes or no): *No*
Domestic hardwoods (yes or no, or list the available species if known):

(Sorry not sure which are domestic and which are ‘other’ hardwoods.)

*European Oak
American White Oak
American White Ash
White Beech
Lightly Steamed Beech
American Cherry
Idigbo
Iroko
Rock Maple
Red Grandis
Utile
American Black Walnut
Sapele
Teak
Tulipwood
Wenge
Zebrano
Purpleheart
Padauk
Koto
Keruing
Obeche
Lime
Movingui*

Other hardwoods (yes or no, or list the available species if known):
Softwoods (yes or no, or list the available species if known):

*Douglas Fir
Yellow Pine
Pitch Pine
Larch
Sitka Spruce
Western Red Cedar*

Manufactured boards (yes or no): *not sure*
Turning blanks (yes or no): *not sure*
Size of shop (small, medium, large, one person, etc.): *Large*
Cut lengths for car transport (yes or no): *not sure*
Notes (include links to other threads on UKW about the vendor):


----------



## Chippymint

Well done Custard. A brilliant piece of work. Very informative and helpful.


----------



## Seaside Donkey

Picalilli said:


> Does anyone know of any good wood yards that would sell hardwoods in Tyne and Wear or near?



There's Arbor Timber at Langley Moor near Durham.

There's nothing machined until you ask for it so it's a matter of browsing, picking and then waiting for your piece(s) to be machined. That may take a few days. If you're not that picky you could order online and would probably be OK - I've had no problem with the quality of their stuff.

The staff can be a bit offhand though and it often takes ages to get through on the phone. I once phoned for some 32mm MDF and was told no problem, just come through and pick it up. When I got there they looked at me as if I was crazy. "32mm MDF? We don't keep that on stock. We'll have to order from the warehouse". Also, when you go to the shop they often have a competition to see who can find anything to do other than serve a customer.

What can you do though? There doesn't seem to be any alternatives around here.


----------



## D_W

wrong forum. post moved


----------



## isaac3d

Seaside Donkey said:


> There's Arbor Timber at Langley Moor near Durham.
> 
> There's nothing machined until you ask for it so it's a matter of browsing, picking and then waiting for your piece(s) to be machined. That may take a few days. If you're not that picky you could order online and would probably be OK - I've had no problem with the quality of their stuff.
> 
> The staff can be a bit offhand though and it often takes ages to get through on the phone. I once phoned for some 32mm MDF and was told no problem, just come through and pick it up. When I got there they looked at me as if I was crazy. "32mm MDF? We don't keep that on stock. We'll have to order from the warehouse". Also, when you go to the shop they often have a competition to see who can find anything to do other than serve a customer.
> 
> What can you do though? There doesn't seem to be any alternatives around here.



The attitude of the staff as you describe it makes this sound exactly like the place NOT to buy your timber. Thanks for the heads up.
I wonder if the owners realise the effect of such comments on their sales?
Hey ho... on to the next timber merchant.


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## GregW

I’m printing it for my folder “things worth to know” thank you


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## Stokes&co

Hi Custard and everyone. Thanks for this brilliant thread mate hugely helpful indeed. I’ve been at it 5 or so years ‘professionally’ and still find buying timber bewildering and difficult! I was wondering if I could ask a question about English woodlands timber (apologies to everyone not from the south) I went the other day and bought some nice chestnut and walnut but I was wondering do you typically buy from the racking shop which has the live edge slabs in or are you looking on the website at all their stock of a particular species and then asking to look at particular number boards before choosing and buying? When I went you weren’t allowed to wander around all the warehouses but that might have been because of covid. Anyhow, thanks for the answer in advance, Patrick.


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## RoyWoodworker

Custard thanks for a very interesting article. I have just taken up woodworking and have found timber buying such a minefield.
Still don't understand how, when I order 4 metres PAR cherry, i actually receive slightly over 3 metres with the last metre of that unusable for my project because it tapers away and still has the bark on. An expensive wood made even more expensive by short delivery.
Hardwood timber suppliers are few and far between. I have found a better supplier farther away with large stocks of hardwood, good quality and good service. But like others on here I have found that this comes at a cost. (Sykes Atherstone for anyone interested)
I like your way of thinking. Its a hobby that gives us hours of pleasure and hopefully a pleasing finished result. Its not cheap but I don't want to work for days on a project to be let down by poor timber. I put a lot of effort into a project and want to be proud of the finished result.


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## Misterdog

Anyone wanting steamed beech should look at Pollmeier they supply timber which is hit and miss sanded, allowing you to see the grain and colour. 
All exactly the same thickness and length.
That's Germans for you. 

Home

It seems expensive until you realize there is zero waste.
Compare it to Romanian steamed beech where half of it was unusable...


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## WoodchipWilbur

triker64 said:


> Are tbere any wood yards up Yorkshire way or do l need to travel south?


British Hardwoods in Cross Kills, near Keighley do me well. Not purely British. Brilliant folk. About 5 mins drive away.

Highly recommended by other members of this forum who have a bit further to travel.


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## Born2bye

Great artical which really helps me
thank you very much


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## voyager

really useful post that explains what i have been trying to get my head around for years


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## Rallymantony

custard said:


> Even at more "standardised" yards you'll still have to be aware of some potential problems with ABW. I mentioned that Walnut is almost always sold on a "sap no fault" basis. A bit of sap on just one side of a board is something most of us could live with, but what if the _best_ side of a board has thick bands of sap like this? Sorry I got the photos wrong, look at the end of the post!
> 
> View attachment 62491
> 
> 
> As the small buyer the hard fact is you're that bit more likely to receive these kind of boards. You could try returning them, or explaining before hand that you won't accept sap on both sides, but it's something you need to be prepared for. It's another reason to select your boards in person, even if that means going to a yard like Surrey Timbers where there'll be a bit of premium for the privilege.
> 
> Indeed every timber has it's own unique pitfalls. Off the top of my head here are some of the others,
> 
> *American Cherry*. Excessive number of black resin pockets. Too sappy. English Cherry is a cheaper substitute, personally I like it, but be aware it's often field grown with wild grain that makes jointing boards together very difficult. Cherry ages beautifully, taking on a lovely patination after just a few years. It can be slightly blotchy to finish but time cures that. It's easy to work and kind on your tools. I would strongly recommend American Cherry for your first hardwood experiments, it's also a natural match for Shaker style projects. Cherry used to be called "poor man's Mahogany", but it's now a far more fashionable timber than Mahogany, plus it has the huge benefit of being a renewable, temperate zone timber, so no one will think you're Jack the Ripper for using it.
> 
> *Oak*. There's a bit of an epidemic of yellow stain at the moment, that's a drying fault from being rushed through kilning with inadequate air drying before hand. If you buy from a yard that does there own kilning (like Tylers) you won't get this, it's more of a problem in smaller yards that buy in ready kilned stock purely on price. Oak is often available graded, for furniture making don't skimp, you want the highest grade available. Oak is also one of the very few timbers where you can often specify quarter sawn even from a "standardised" yard. You may want to do this for the distinctive medullary rays you get with quarter sawn Oak. Be aware though that medullary rays come in all sorts of shapes and mixing them up within a single project can be a bit jarring. Personally I favour "spidery" rays like this,
> 
> View attachment 62496
> 
> 
> Rather than "splodgy" rays like this, but this really is just a personal preference!
> 
> View attachment 62497
> 
> 
> *Beech*. Beech comes in two versions, steamed and unsteamed. personally I like the slightly pink tinge you get with steaming. But that's a personal choice, the important thing is to specify one or the other and then stick to it, mixing up the two in one project looks messy. Beech is one of the cheapest hardwoods, but it can quickly get a bit boring. It works well with mixed hardwood/plywood projects though.
> 
> *Sweet Chestnut*. Sweet Chestnut isn't as well known as it deserves to be. It's very similar to Oak except it's a bit paler and doesn't have medullary rays. It's also widely available and very affordable (as far as hardwoods go that is!), the reason it's affordable is commercial planters often include some Chestnut amongst Oak because it can be harvested much earlier so they can get some cash in before they pop their clogs, it's got much narrower sap bands so for any given tree diameter you get a higher yield than Oak. If you want to stick to traditional furniture making techniques you'd use Oak for your show faces and Sweet Chestnut as the secondary timber for backs, drawer sides, etc. Whatever you do don't buy _Horse Chestnut_ if it's offered to you by a local tree surgeon, it's hopeless for furniture making.
> 
> *Sycamore*. Be very careful when buying Sycamore, most of it is fairly grey and often has sticker stains. The stuff to look out for is the bright white boards that are sometimes called "Arctic Sycamore". Buying bargain basement Sycamore sight unseen is just asking for trouble. Rippled Sycamore is probably the most widely available of the heavily figured timbers. There's normally some for sale in at least one of my local yards.
> 
> *Ash*. It's very common to find Ash with a pale brown staining, especially around the centre of the tree. It's sometimes sold as "Olive Ash", if you want a pale clean look then specify upfront that you don't want any Olive Ash, like Walnut Sap it's often sold as not being a fault. Ash isn't an easy timber to finish, it really needs grain filling and that's a bit trickier with a pale timber.
> 
> *Maple*. Maple has a surprising range of colour variation, from white to yellow to pink. They're all attractive in their own way, but you don't want to mix them up within a single project. Buy a bit extra per project and state you want a consistent colour match.
> 
> I'm sure there are lots of other things but it's time I had some dinner! Hopefully other people can chime in with their timber buying experiences.
> 
> Oops. I messed up the first photo. It should have been this one,
> 
> View attachment 62498


Thank you for taking the time, I'm just starting out and your right up has been very helpful to me. Thank you again.


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## Suffolkboy

Rallymantony said:


> Thank you for taking the time, I'm just starting out and your right up has been very helpful to me. Thank you again.



If you are just starting out have a look through some of Custard's other previous posts. He certainly helped me along the way with some of his informative and well written postings.


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## ElliotM

Thank you Custard, a great piece of work, great article. Thank you


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## Adam Hodges

Fantastic advise in this thread!


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## Keith 66

Felix said:


> That is a real shame - it's sad that continuity of supply was never at the forefront of the forest owners' minds as much as the dollar signs were. So who's stashing the millions of trees that have been felled to make way for palm oil plantations?



Most of them will simply have been burnt.


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## Adam W.

......or sent to China.


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## fishe_17

great post, thank you!


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## SASculpture

This is a really informative thread. I think I've read the whole thing and saw no reference to suppliers in the Southwest. So, at the risk of duplicating information that I may have missed, I would point to Yandles just outside Martock in Somerset. I've purchased all sorts from them including Tigerwood, Zebrawood, Wenge, Purple Heart, Bubinga, Elm, Yew and Paduak. They have a good selection of sizes and lots of rounds for the turning enthusiast. I purchase with a view to sculpting so I've not used - so can't comment on - their cutting service.


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## isaac3d

Yandles has an interesting selection, especially pieces for turning. Unfortunately, it's a bit too far for me to visit often.


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## isaac3d

If you don't mind buying in large lengths (usually 2.4 to 3m) and "sight unseen" if you buy over the internet, then SL Hardwoods in Croyden is a good option.
They offer a good price and very good service. They will replace any boards that are damaged or not up to spec. and arrange for the original board to be collected at their cost.


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## Keith 66

Once in a while you have a stroke of luck, today i took delivery of a lorry load of Victorian floorboards from a long since demolished building, A scrap dealer friend asked me if i wanted the lot before he unloaded it.
Best Burma teak half of it in 16ft lengths the rest in 10ft & shorts, must be well over two tons. Time i cut some damaged edges off most will finish 3 1/2" wide x 1 1/8" It will need some denailing & pitch scraping off but it comes off easy so i can sure live with that, Price was exceedingly good. Happy, Happy!


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## Wildman

custard said:


> No more Bubinga by the way, in January of this year Bubinga (along with all Rosewoods including Cocobolo, Kingwood, and African Blackwood) went onto the CITES list. You'll find the odd bit still for sale in a few yards, but basically that's it. If you fancy some Wenge you'd best get your skates on, word is that's going to follow and in any case Wenge quality has gone right down in the past year or two.
> 
> Is this a bad thing? No, it's probably a very good thing. One way I've heard it put is this, if the Earth was 46 years old then we humans have been around for 4 hours and the industrial revolution happened just 1 minute ago, but in those 60 seconds over half of all the world's forests have been cut down. Ouch!
> 
> Bottom line is tropical timbers are yesterday's materials, very soon trying to sell anything made from a tropical timber will be like trying to sell something made from ivory or panda fur. Some of the coolest furniture makers I know are now exclusively using Douglas Fir and Hazel! That's probably going a bit far, but temperate zone timbers are definitely the way ahead.


Remember to recycle and avoid scrapping decent timber


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