# New Goodwoodworking - First Impressions



## tibbs (2 Jul 2005)

Just found my subscription copy of the new format Goodwoodworking in my postbox - I've only had a quick flick through it so far but what can I say - Damn! - looks good - hearty congrats to all at GWW - superb job - even the mini projects & the turning stuff (which dont normally light my fire) look way more interesting than before. The whole visual layout looks good too.

The only downside I can see is that they seem to have killed the GWW website - all the old URLs seem to either be 'Not Found' or end up at the myfavouritemagazines subscription page - perhaps there'll be something in the mag when I read it in more detail - or perhaps not, maybe it'll just be quietly ignored - shame.

Richard


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## Alf (2 Jul 2005)

tibbs":2etg9qac said:


> The only downside I can see is that they seem to have killed the GWW website


That died the death some months ago. As for the new look; I'll restrain myself until more people have had a chance to form their own opinion first.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (2 Jul 2005)

I got mine yesterday

Chalk and cheese.

The new format is so much better than the old that I cannot thin of words to adequately express my impression of the changes.

Maybe the fact that I may now consider renewing my subscription whereas before I barely read any of the mag will show how I feel about the improvement.


Well done all at GWW.


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## Nick Gibbs (2 Jul 2005)

Thanks to everyone who has commented about Good Wood's new look. Everyone has worked really hard on this, and I've been particularly impressed by the commitment of Pete, Andy, Phil, Jan and Ollie to new ideas having worked for so many years on the mag. 

I would dearly love to get the website up and running, and have loads of ideas of how it can be used creatively, but for the moment the accountants won't give me the resources. Watch this space.

This is just the beginnning, very much work in progress. I haven't had so much fun editing a magazine since we launched Good Wood all those years ago. 

Please keep sending me comments, especially of how we might be able to make further improvements. It's on sale on Wedesday, I hope.

Nick (Gibbs)


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## Nick Gibbs (2 Jul 2005)

I forgot to mention in my previous message that I'm editor of Good Wood (just in case you don't know).

I also forgot to mention the absolutely enormous contribution of Christian Day, our Senior Art Editor, who has come up with so many of the great visual ideas and has worked his socks off. Steve Bradley , our new Managing Editor, doesn't wear socks often, but has also been superb, and we must also thank all the contributors for their efforts and patience.

Thanks

Nick Gibbs
Editor, Good Woodworking


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## devonwoody (3 Jul 2005)

I would give the new look magazine the thumbs up.

My only complaint is that the private sales ads. were few in number, I always turned to that page first when opening the magazine in the past.

I would rather more space was alloted even if they were one line adverts with contact number and letting the vendor/purchaser do the spiel.


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## Nick Gibbs (3 Jul 2005)

I'm not sure why there were fewer reader ads than normal, but we can only publish what we receive! I'm sure we have done so. 

Thanks for the thumbs up.

Nick (Gibbs)
Editor, Good Woodworking


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## Ham (4 Jul 2005)

Looks as if I'm the first to have a negative view of the new look GWW. My first impressions were of how short the items are and in many cases very simplistic. I thought that the previous issues had established a well deserved reputation for clarity and quality. I don't think it was broken so why has it been 'fixed'?

Cheers, David


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## les chicken (4 Jul 2005)

Ham":14ohgxwb said:


> My first impressions were of how short the items are and in many cases very simplistic. I thought that the previous issues had established a well deserved reputation for clarity and quality. I don't think it was broken so why has it been 'fixed'?



I tend to agree with David. I am more interested in general woodworking, but this months mag seem to have more skew chisels and ads for such than anything else. How to make a spinning wheel a two part project does not keep me interested.

Les


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## woodshavings (4 Jul 2005)

Seemed fine to me, I wouldn't say the content was any better or worse.
Maybe a "fresher" layout/appearance.
I think it's a good mag anyway!
John


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## trevtheturner (4 Jul 2005)

"A new broom sweeps clean" so the saying goes. But I am not particularly impressed and echo David's views. Too many short 'bits' and not enough in-depth articles and much of the layout IMO seems quite 'untidy'. 

I don't want FREE! 3 Exclusive catalogues with my mag. I ask for any catalogues that I want and I am sure, like many others, already have the Rutlands 2005 book. So those are in the bin ready for the paper bank, along with the poster which I have no inclination to hang on my workshop wall, nor do I have the space to do so. (I receive enough junk mail already without GWW adding to it!).

Overall I prefered the 'unfixed' version and don't see any improvement in the new one but time will tell.

Cheers,

Trev.


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## beech1948 (4 Jul 2005)

I wondered what words to use to describe the "new" GW.

The new layout seems fiddly, too many short bits, not enough "making" details in the larger articles. The graphic design seems at first bewildering and more about the graphic design than woodwork.

All in all not a real improvement. The "old" GW was as good.

A clear case of needing more content, better design, more mould breaking and less bloody accountants.


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## Chris Knight (4 Jul 2005)

Displaying my age here no doubt but:-

I prefer a much more formal look to magazines I read. I like black text on a white background and I detest text that nearly disappears into a coloured background. I hate stuff where the editor sems to have discovered colours and fonts for the first time. I like rectangular sidebars that don't scream at me but instead nicely complement the general text.

However, this is all about layout and arty farty stuff. I think the content was pretty good (after all I wrote a very small part of it!) and I am glad that the tendency to think of witty or half witted punning titles for articles has been abandoned - they were a pet peeve of mine.


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## Anonymous (4 Jul 2005)

Ham":euackv22 said:


> I don't think it was broken so why has it been 'fixed'?
> 
> Cheers, David



Oh, I think it was very broken and desperately required fixing - something that has started and will hopefully continue as the new magazine is developed over the coming months


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## Nick Gibbs (4 Jul 2005)

Thanks to all the contributors in this thread. The new design for Good Wood aims to be busy, to give value for money and more for readers to return to. I'm glad to see that one or two people have picked that up. 

That said there are areas where we plan to simplify the look and make it less fiddly. Some things just didn't work as well as we hoped. 

We also see a need to bring new, aspiring woodworkers to the market, and give woodworking magazines some of the qualities you find in other arenas, while retaining the essential characteristics that make them useful and interesting. 

I register the concerns about coloured boxes. I've heard that one for as long as I've edited magazines, but it's still valid and we will watch out for that and do what we can. 

We welcome your feedback, and especially your support, and hope we can keep improving the mag. Woodworking will be the loser if we fail.

Nick


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## Javier (5 Jul 2005)

Howdie Nick Gibbs. I used to enjoy your magazine a few years back here in the
States. I was following a series by John Brown on building windsor chairs using only 
hand tools. Halfway through the series it was no longer available at any of the
bookstores in my area. I did searches online to try to obtain a subcription but to 
no avail. Is it no longer available in the States ? Also, John Brown had said he
planned to write a book on the subject of building these chairs . Has it come out
in GB. Been lurking this forum and thoroughly enjoy the tool reviews, advice and
good humour. Thanks much


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## MikeW (5 Jul 2005)

Hi Javier,

I don't have any answers to your questions but wanted to throw a welcome to the forum your way.


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## Newbie_Neil (5 Jul 2005)

Hi Javier

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry, I don't have an answer to your question but you might want to look up Peter Hindle at Ashem Crafts. They run various chairmaking courses in the UK, including Windsor chairs, but also run some in the US.

www.ashemcrafts.com

HTH

Cheers
Neil


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## Philly (5 Jul 2005)

Hi Javier
Welcome!
I believe the book you are after is this one....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 08-3806056
cheers
Philly


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## Newbie_Neil (5 Jul 2005)

Hi Nick

Let me preface this by saying that I was very much looking forward to seeing the new GWW and I hope that you take my comments as constructive.

As the heading of the thread says, these are very much my first impressions.

During the second half of last year the magazine was full of excellent projects that were clearly explained and were very well thought of on this forum. In comparison, this year has been poor.

Might I start by suggesting that your front cover features a picture of one of the projects. Have a look at Practical Woodworking August 2005 or PWW June 2005 to see which is more attractive to the in-store purchaser.



Nick Gibbs":341pcx0a said:


> The new design for Good Wood aims to be busy



You've certainly succeeded in that. Personally, I think you've over-egged the pudding.



Nick Gibbs":341pcx0a said:


> ...to give value for money and more for readers to return to.



Admirable qualities to strive for in a magazine.



Nick Gibbs":341pcx0a said:


> That said there are areas where we plan to simplify the look and make it less fiddly. Some things just didn't work as well as we hoped.



Err, right.



Nick Gibbs":341pcx0a said:


> We also see a need to bring new, aspiring woodworkers to the market, and give woodworking magazines some of the qualities you find in other arenas, while retaining the essential characteristics that make them useful and interesting.



As someone new to woodworking I am particularly interested in this area. I thought you had made some good moves but there was neither depth, nor clarity, to quite a number of the articles.

Give a copy of page 9 to someone who knows nothing about turning and ask them how long it takes to have any idea about what a thread chaser does. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm still unsure.



Nick Gibbs":341pcx0a said:


> We welcome your feedback, and especially your support, and hope we can keep improving the mag. Woodworking will be the loser if we fail.



Personally, I felt that too much space was taken up with articles about books and woodland. Out of one hundred pages, I counted twenty three pages that held my interest.

Why are the _*typical prices *_that you quote so far away from the real world? Looking at your ROS test I might be tempted by the Festool as, I know it has an excellent reputation and, it was only 55 pounds more than the Metabo. But hold on, isn't that the same Metabo that I can buy for _*one hundred and seventy five pounds*_ less than the Festool and also get one or two Bessey clamps thrown in as well?

Good luck. I sincerely hope that you succeed.

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (5 Jul 2005)

Ham":384lbb8o said:


> My first impressions were of how short the items are and in many cases very simplistic.





trevtheturner":384lbb8o said:


> Too many short 'bits' and not enough in-depth articles and much of the layout IMO seems quite 'untidy'.





beech1948":384lbb8o said:


> The new layout seems fiddly, too many short bits, not enough "making" details in the larger articles. The graphic design seems at first bewildering and more about the graphic design than woodwork.





Newbie_Neil":384lbb8o said:


> I thought you had made some good moves but there was neither depth, nor clarity, to quite a number of the articles.
> 
> Give a copy of page 9 to someone who knows nothing about turning and ask them how long it takes to have any idea about what a thread chaser does. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm still unsure.


Wot they said. Not news to Nick, as I've already emailed him privately with more in-depth comment. What I really can't understand is _why_ content seems to be heading for greater superficiality. Looking back at comments we've made in the past, time and again "more depth/detail" has been the theme. ](*,) Is GWW really aiming to be a coffee table magazine? In which case it's going to make thinning down the magazine subs this year a "no-brainer"... On the plus side, I enjoyed Steve's bookcase. Why? 'Cos you could actually _read_ it; it had narrative flow. And that's was seems to be missing from so much of the rest of the mag. 

Extremely Unimpressed of Cornwall


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## Anonymous (5 Jul 2005)

I am quite surprised at some of these posts.

I do not disagree with the general points made such as a 'busy' look, too little depth in many articles (particularly the chaser one - I have no idea what they do after reading it either Neil).

However. The last 4 or 5 issues of GWW preceding this new one were, pretty poor in my opinion. In case people have forgotten already, this was also many other member's opinion too. 

So, let's take off those rose tinted spectacles :roll: 

Rather than slating Nick and the team's efforts and work, I would say that the improvements made so far are good (although plenty of work still required) and clearly the magazine will develop over the coming months and will hopefully become the premier English WW mag. - something it most definitely has not been for quite a while.

For what it's worth Nick. I enjoyed the book reviews and the woodland article. I felt that you were expanding the coverage to a wider readership which is essential when one considers the variety of people that may buy the mag, along with their varied reasons for buying it (DIY, furniture making, turning, new tools, old tools, carpentry, carving, marquetry, professionals, amateurs......)

I do not want ONLY woodworking projects and reviews of YET MORE tools in my magazines. Any mags I get with just these things in hit the bin pretty quickly. I want varied content and thought provoking articles. For instance, I had never thought about actually buying a section of forest before, however, my interest was piqued

I generally liked what I got in this one - *but more depth please*



> Out of one hundred pages, I counted twenty three pages that held my interest.



that is more than I found in the past 4 issues put together!!!!


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## mudman (5 Jul 2005)

I have to echo what Tony says.
I liked the new look and the whole feel of the magazine has changed for the better. Before I found myself skimming through the mag in one sitting, this issue has been picked up several times now. That to me is a good test for a magazine.
As to the woodlands article, haven't got around to reading it properly yet but ever since growing up on the treeless South Downs, I've always dreamed of owning a patch of woods so this is of interest. Was a bit dissapointed to read that it is now becoming fashionable and the price is now going up.


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## mudman (5 Jul 2005)

Just thought, I haven't read the thread chasing article either, and only skimmed the spinning wheel one, which does look interesting to me. So, plenty more to read in it yet.
I like to be able to skim a mag when I've just received it and be able to come back later for a more in depth read. I think GWW has achieved this.

Keep up the good work Nick and Team.

PS, please run Ian's plane making article, I know there are a lot of people that would like to see this, me included. [-o<


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## devonwoody (5 Jul 2005)

The last thread mentioned Ians article re the cabinet case and I should mention that I could not follow wording re the mention of the plane storage. This came about because a photograph of this portion of the cabinet was curtailed.

However I did a search on this forum and was able to locate a picture of the plane storeage section of the cabinet.

The purpose of my thread is to point out that articles are possibly shortened by the editorial staff. (for their reasons no doubt)


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## Martin Brown (5 Jul 2005)

In my opinion the ad rates are just way too high. For such a poorly viewed rag (see all posts above) it is mad that we have to pay to advertise. Shurely shome mishtake?? Thank your God they don't make any other magazines. Luckily Nick Gibbs has other interests to keep him from the scrap heap. Andy King can go back to his stand in for Buster Bloodvessel....."hello Cleckheaton we're Bid Minors".

BTW thanks to all who above threw out their Veritas poster. please recycle.


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## Javier (5 Jul 2005)

Thanks for the warm welcome and the book info. Will definitely be ordering it.


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## Philly (5 Jul 2005)

ROTFL :lol: 
Nice one Martin-think you are onto a loser, there, though. :lol: 
Cheers
Philly


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## Alf (5 Jul 2005)

Martin Brown":1pmaucup said:


> BTW thanks to all who above threw out their Veritas poster. please recycle.


I've kept mine. It'll be handy for covering the benchtop when I do the next glue-up...  :wink: 

Javier, my apologies; welcome to the forum. 

Cheers, Alf


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## devonwoody (5 Jul 2005)

Alf":3ms3owkl said:


> Martin Brown":3ms3owkl said:
> 
> 
> > BTW thanks to all who above threw out their Veritas poster. please recycle.
> ...



Actually Alf I've kept mine, thought it would be handy to make for putting in the car, a caravan, even to take along to Yandles then we could all have tea again with Philly sitting at a table :lol:


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## Steve Maskery (5 Jul 2005)

Alf":85ac3gia said:


> On the plus side, I enjoyed Steve's bookcase.



Thank you very much Alf, I do try to make stuff readable, even for people who are not going to make up the project.



devonwoody":85ac3gia said:


> articles are possibly shortened by the editorial staff



Not just shortened, DW, sometimes bits are added. Usually it's not a problem, but all the stuff about sharpening in the bookcase article originated, not at my keyboard, but in a telephone conversation. Scary Sharp has become Scarily Sharp, and personally, I think that section did not help the narrative flow of the piece. It's OK, I've sorted this out amicably with Nick, but DW, you are right, what appears on the page is not necessarily the truth the whole truth ANBTT. 

Editors have to, well, edit, and they do so to try to ensure that the project is of maximum value to the reader, and the original author probably has no idea of how it is going to relate to other pieces in the same issue, for example. Authors always think that their work is sacrosant, and take it as a duellable challenge if someone modifies their precious work, but sometimes it just has to be, or postpone the piece for another time.

On the wider issue of the new mag, I'd say that this is a step in the right direction. Yes, a few things are disappointing, but if they are recognised and corrected, then we should be able to look forward to it being the best it can be. Lets hope each is better than the last, and give the whole team our support, shall we? After all, if we don't support it, and it folds, we shall all be the poorer.

Cheers
Steve


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## mudman (5 Jul 2005)

Martin Brown":3h2sy24r said:


> BTW thanks to all who above threw out their Veritas poster. please recycle.



Actually mine is going up on the wall with careful annotations to indicate the ranking system I have in place to promote the 'This is what I want for next birthday/Christmas/easter/Father's Day/Mother's Day/' system thet I have in place in my house.

My wife threatened to put up a similar poster showing large amounts of expensive jewlery with careful annotations to indicate which piece would be required before an equivalent Veritas item would enter the house.


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## devonwoody (5 Jul 2005)

To GWW

Can I have an extra edition this month, finished the Sept. issue already


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## GCR (5 Jul 2005)

I always found the previous GWW mags a little superficial on first scan, but usually found some depth on re-reading. I am not sure that this has changed. My first impression as I waded through the new format was "when does the real woodwork start". 7 pages of words and little practical as a lead in! I would expect a woodworking mag to set about something "hands on" with drawings/photos close to the start of the mag - if I were idly scanning through at a shop I might well pass it by. I am also easily confused, I wondered what "the cranked chisel" had to do with bench planes (itself a re-hash from not that long ago) on page 88. The format adopted for Planing machines was, I thought, clear and useful. 

Bob


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## MikeW (5 Jul 2005)

mudman":n8prck97 said:


> Martin Brown":n8prck97 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW thanks to all who above threw out their Veritas poster. please recycle.
> ...


Careful there, Barry...your wife may well be more serious than you are :wink:.

Hate to tell you what happened one year I forgot both our anniversary and her birthday (they are 5 days apart). It was an expensive *year*. :lol:


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## MikeW (5 Jul 2005)

Nick and company...
I have not ever seen you magazine--didn't even know it existed before the last couple mentions and threads where the name came up.

I did attempt to see what it was all about by going to a web site link once, and of course, only got to a subscription page.

Because of the above, I only have ignorant encouragement for you, and a little personal advice as a reader of other magazines--to which I don't have any expectation for you to answer in a public forum.

I assume you have a clear vision statement of what you desire to communicate--information relevant to your vision--and how to present that information. I also assume you and the other editors review submissions in raw form, as well as the edited revisions, against that vision statement.

If you and the other editors feel that you have a ways to go before the magazine is where you desire it to be, I would also assume you have a clear road map and timeline to get there.

I personally like a bit of variety as relates to working with wood. I also have a need for inspirational articles, ones that challenge me, provoking me to want to try out a concept, method or entire project.

I have (as a few here know) a dislike for pedantic presentation of ideas that have been rehashed time and time again. But, I don't mind rehashing of ideas wherein the reader is referred to the earlier articles and is prompted to consider information that was not included in prior articles. For instance, one of the magazines for a while had a running article on dovetails. While it was covered in previous issues, each time it was run it gave other, new methods (be they by hand or machine). Rationale for pins vs. tails first and how one goes about one method or the other without a judgement as to "which is better." 

One article used a traditional back saw, another used a Japanese style saw. There were representatives of the different router jigs, bandsaw use, etc. I forget which magazine, but it ran nearly an entire year.

I never got tired of considering the "same old information" when it was presented this way. In fact, it challenged me to use the bandsaw for large-scale blanket chest dovetails for my first time. And you know what? I now only do large DTs this way.

I also like pieces or concepts for more advanced workers. Heck, every professional I know does not need a step-by-step guide or even full-measured drawings. But a called-out detail of how something special was carried out is in itself inspiring.

I guess one thing I am trying to communicate is that I don't mind reading through "easier" articles, ads (we all have to pays bills), working concepts that have been previously published (but presented using a different technique), but I need to be encouraged in some way to desire the next issue. For myself, it is the philosophical aspects of how and why to do something, a technique for solving a build issue I hadn't thought of and, of course, those projects done by others that are simply to inspire me to a greater level of woodworking.

My best to you and the staff. I sincerely wish all involved a sense of fulfilment, pride in what you have accomplished and clear direction as you strive to achieve your vision.

Mike Wenzloff


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## Nick Gibbs (5 Jul 2005)

Hi Mike 

Thanks for that note. It is fascinating to read and an excellent reminder of how editors should work. 

My/our vision is sometimes in the heart, other times in the head, and often written down. It's a constantly evolving vision, driven by a desire to entertain and inform as many woodworkers as possible, enabling them to enjoy woodworking even more through what they read and through the shared experience of a magazine. And I want to learn and have fun too. 

The aim is to have woodworkers craving the day the magazine goes on sale, yearning for another dose of Good Wood. 

That is my vision. 

Who knows if you ever achieve it, or perhaps you achieve it all the time, every day, by persuing it. The vision is what you do. 

As a sailing friend once told me as we sailed across the Channel in an old French pilot boat, it's best to navigate 'towards' a landfall, rather than 'to' a point. That way, he said, you can accept the adjustments that have to be made along the way while keeping your course in mind. You listen to the wind, and to the tides, and to the crew, and watch out for tankers, and try to enjoy the journey, and are satisfied by your destination. 

Thanks for your contribution. It has certainly raised my morale. 

Nick Gibbs


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## Nigel (5 Jul 2005)

Hi Nick 

A view from a complete novice is that the new format is better as I used to read all I wanted from the previous issues in one sitting as already stated by Mudman I have had the mag for 4 days and still finding interest as for the extra catalogues I welcomed them as there is a certain amount of sloth on my part to request them, I did like the diversion from joints and tools ie Woodlands,I am sure the tweaking you do in response to any feedback can only make it better and I look forward to the next issue

Good luck Nigel


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## Midnight (6 Jul 2005)

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what to make of the new look... the previous issue arrived days before the new one so I've used that as a base-line...

first thing to be grateful for; an issue free of Andy's legs... yon was enough t put folk off their dinner..!! Ahem...

the editing of Ian's tool cabinet disappointed me; knowing there's far better pics of the project available on a free web site than in a subscribed magazine isn't going to impress or endear me... using a grammar checker might help too...

did find a first however... the review of bench planes; concise, accurate and fair.. never seen that before...

Is it the quality mag I'd "pictured" in my previous rant..??? Nuh uh... not by a long shot... filling the covers with a broad range of topics is an understandable aim, but please, pick one of them.. ANY one... and do a proper job per issue... even if it means spreading a project over a few issues... THAT kinda content will keep me anticipating the next issue; half ass'd n shallow aint gonna cut it... 3 pages to plug a piece of woodland for sale..?????

However..

From experience I've learned that taking a new project off the drawing board and going to first prototype isn't going to be easy; mistakes happen... at best you'll get maybe 70% of the way to where you wanna be... The next one should get the percentage up into the high 90's... or confirm that maybe it isn't worth the bother...


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## devonwoody (6 Jul 2005)

To the editorial staff of GWW

How about getting your advertisers to do more project sheets like the Veritas one that came with the new magazine.

I would have thought it has got to be a winner with readers.


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## wizer (6 Jul 2005)

I still haven't made my mind up on the new look. I like it, but not sure if its better or worse than the old. It is certainly sleeker and more 'professional'.

I will say that I did enjoy the woodlands article. I'm not sure why this wouldn't apeal to woodworkers?

My only other minor complaint is on the 'Mug Trough'. As a newbie I can see how this is a great 'beginner' project and being a very basic project not much real estate is needed on it. However... Could we at least see a picture of it in use? It took me a good few minutes to work out what it actualy was and how you'd use it.


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## Philly (6 Jul 2005)

Well-finally got my hands on the "new-look" GW. Was a bit worried as to how the crew had ruined the mag after reading some of the negative vibes here. :? 
Had a read through it twice now-I LIKE IT!  
The last 6 issues have been pretty bad, obviously thrown together at the last minute and, frankly, not worth the money. This issue is much more like it! A lot more to read, better layout, no pixelated dodgy pictures, not too many typo's and loads of stuff to read. A nice mix of articles for beginner to advanced, turning, cabinets, weekend stuff, techniques, loads of reviews. This is more like it.
So a big thumbs up from me, especially as this is the first issue. Also, having Nick the editor asking us good folk for our opinions and input-what more could you want from a magazine???? :shock: Come on-let the GW crew know what you like and lets get the magazine WE want. :wink: 
Cheers
Philly  
(and yes, I know a certain Krenov style thing is in the next issue but this does not colour my opinion! )


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## devonwoody (6 Jul 2005)

Don't forget the issue number next time though


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## tim (6 Jul 2005)

In general I think that its possibly to early to judge after one new issue but I still can't see that there is a clear strategy for the mag. To be honest, this is a criticism that I would have levelled at the old look GWW as well. I don't believe that GWW knows what its core reader is and as a result aims a portion of the magazine at each possible type. Net result is that everyone pays the same price tag but only finds a percentage of the magazine of any value. This means that most folk will feel that it does not offer value for money.

I do think the new look is 'busy' and I know that Nick has already commented that it is a look that he is after, but busy and effective are not the same. I stopped count on the front page after 14 different typefaces/ sizes. 

In order for this to be deemed constructive (which its meant to be), I don't actually mind what direction GWW decides to take for its own commercial survival. If its not a positioning that yanks my chain then I will stop subscribing, but if they have done their research then hopefully lots more, more targeted readers will take my place. What is lacking is any form of colours being nailed to the mast. I agree (as said in other threads recently) that F&C has become dull but its focus is clear. GWW seems to be trying to catch everyone and pleasing very few. My personal preference would be to have a heavier bias towards finer stuff (not one article a month), but thats not necessarily right for the magazine or its wider readership.

So, as a sign off, I don't think that the core direction has become clear and that the majority of changes (will broadly improving) are anything more than cosmetic. I would love to see a clearly stated objective for the magazine's direction.

I do hope it gets better, I don't want to only get US Mags and I wish Nick and the team the best of luck.

Cheers

Tim

PS - don't call something 'exclusive' when its not. I already had all three of those catalogues.


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## MikeW (6 Jul 2005)

Nick Gibbs":ly9qrvvc said:


> ...Snip...
> My/our vision is sometimes in the heart, other times in the head, and often written down. It's a constantly evolving vision, driven by a desire to entertain and inform as many woodworkers as possible, enabling them to enjoy woodworking even more through what they read and through the shared experience of a magazine. And I want to learn and have fun too.
> 
> The aim is to have woodworkers craving the day the magazine goes on sale, yearning for another dose of Good Wood.
> ...


Hi Nick,

The parable of sailing was great as applies to sailing. Not sure it is effective regards an effective business plan, though.

I would suggest a clear and concise vision statement, used to write a clear business plan, which business plan is then carefully outlined by clearly written objectives to which everything, and I mean everything, is then checked against for adherence to those objectives as regards:

*Content itself*. Does this article submission fall within our business plan (who is the target audience?) This includes how many of each type of article for this issue compared to the past publishing schedule or two (article repeat issues, content mix--beginner, intermediate and more accomplished articles. What is the target mix)
*Direction of content*--does this article take us toward our vision? Does it fit our criteria for content? If not, what will it take to make it adhere to it? Should it?
*Writing style*
in this regard, this includes not only a general "voice" for the writing, but also things such as general format of article composition (are all the "parts" of an article present?), consistent photo journalism, consistent article drawings as needed, etc.
*Stylistic issues*. Are there stylistic rules in place for the layout personnel to follow?

Oh gosh, I was up until 2 am last night again and I haven't had enough coffee yet. There are many more issues regarding publishing a magazine. Been there on the working end (graphic design and layout).

Clear vision, clear business plan, clear objectives to accomplish the plan--for each and every article. Else there are too many hands on the tiller and you'll never even arrive on the proper cost--if at all.


----------



## Alf (6 Jul 2005)

Nick Gibbs":3vlb8elp said:


> The aim is to have woodworkers craving the day the magazine goes on sale, yearning for another dose of Good Wood.


I reckon we would all vote for that, 'cept maybe assorted SWMBO's, LOML's and TPTB's that want other things done first... :-$ 

I'm sorry if I came across as overly negative, btw. I think it's just sheer frustration; I have a vision too, but it doesn't seem to have anything in common with any of the UK magazines. But look at it this way; I wouldn't complain if I didn't care. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (6 Jul 2005)

Alf,
You can't leave it there lass. We know you care but what is your vision?

I don't want to sound confrontational - I am really interested to hear from someone as articulate and passionate as yourself.


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## MikeW (6 Jul 2005)

So Alf and Chris,

Why not make a sticky that is for what our ideal magazine would be like? Encourage people to just list the ideas/desires/vision that they believe would make a good magazine without elaboration...

I would be glad to compile those into a concise message. As for the current situation y'all have with GWW, I'm not sure it is helpful, but one never knows.

Heck, I don't care where a "good" WW magazine is published. I just want one.


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## Alf (6 Jul 2005)

It's a vision unclouded by real-world considerations such as time-limits and lack of resources... :roll:

My vision would be a magazine that isn't format driven but content driven. If an article justifies more space, it'd get it. If there really isn't anything worth saying in the "X" slot, then don't have it. I'd like articles on people's workshops that actually make me feel like I've been there and that I've learnt something from the visit. In the "real world" there isn't one workshop I've visited that I haven't come away from with a new idea or information I didn't have before. I'd like to know a little more about the person who's article I'm reading; not how many kids they have, but their woodworking background. I'd like the turning stuff to be less divorced from the rest of the magazine (round mortises would have been nice, f'rinstance). I'd like projects that have lots and lots of detail, because only then might I be able to learn something useful even if I'd never build that project in a million years. I'd like articles on why a joint should have particular dimensions, when you can break that rule, and examples of it in use. Or articles on a particular tool or machine that tell you exactly how to set it up and use it, tips to get more from it safely and what I can use instead if I can't afford one. I'd like a nice rambling column from a woodworker, who isn't so accomplished that I have nothing in common with them, about whatever happens to occur to them to write about. Okay, so I'd like John Brown back, if truth be told... :lol: I'd like a regular column from an experienced finisher focusing on a particular finish, or way of finishing a particular wood, using products I can buy in this country. Most of all I'd like a regular feature on hand tools, but now I'm getting beyond wishful thinking and into Utopian Ideals... I'd like all that with copious quantities of clear and relevant photographs (not of people), diagrams, and where appropriate, line illustrations by an accomplished draughtsman.

I don't ask for much now, do I? :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (6 Jul 2005)

Alf,
I second your ideas, very like my own in most respects. 
Mike, that is a good, intriguing notion - I shall try and add a few thoughts soon.


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## Nick Gibbs (6 Jul 2005)

Well, Alf

I couldn't agree more. I would love to be producing the magazine you outline. That's pretty much my vision too. I'm a woodworker, after all. Be patient and let us try. Don't attack where we fall short, but praise what we get right. Understand you're not the only reader and give us the encouragement that's deserved of a team that works hours and hours to produce the best possible magazine we can. 

When I asked you if you'd like to write for us, you gave me the impression you wouldn't have time. Well think of this: we produce a 100-page magazine (about 44,000 words, plus drawings and photos) every 19 working days. Yes 19 working days. And that's not forgetting holidays, sickness, meetings, staff changes and accountants, and many other interruptions (including the defence of our decisions and mistakes). 

That's not a complaint: I love it. But come and work with us for a month and see what it's like. 

Thanks, though, for being passionate about it.

Nick


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## les chicken (6 Jul 2005)

Alf
Brilliant. =D> 
I think you have summed up the opinions of many. 

Les


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## Alf (6 Jul 2005)

Nick Gibbs":1gom58k5 said:


> When I asked you if you'd like to write for us, you gave me the impression you wouldn't have time.


I think it'd be more accurate to say I don't have time to write something with a beginning, a middle and an end and then see it hacked to fit the layout... Oh it's not just you; my brief brush with another woodworking mag amply demonstrated I'm not a natural for the demands of magazines.

Funnily enough I was thinking of the turnaround, and the mags from the US we all compare the UK ones to, and it dawned on me what the main diference is (okay, so I'm not the fastest thinker). They're all seven issues a year. GWW is _thirteen_. Even going to twelve would give you a day and bit extra time on each issue... :-k



Nick Gibbs":1gom58k5 said:


> Don't attack where we fall short, but praise what we get right.


Ah, another Utopian Idealist... 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (6 Jul 2005)

Alf":3b5z5ei2 said:


> ....
> Funnily enough I was thinking of the turnaround, and the mags from the US we all compare the UK ones to, and it dawned on me what the main diference is (okay, so I'm not the fastest thinker). They're all seven issues a year. GWW is _thirteen_. Even going to twelve would give you a day and bit extra time on each issue... :-k
> ...Cheers, Alf


See, ignorance is bliss. I had no idea concerning the volume. I've worked under tight publishing deadlines...but I'm not certain I could, or would choose to, work for a length of time with that as a goal/reality.

But then, I've grown a bit lazy of late as regards even documenting what the heck I'm doing. Too much work--speaking of, back to drawing.


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## Midnight (6 Jul 2005)

> Well think of this: we produce a 100-page magazine (about 44,000 words, plus drawings and photos) every 19 working days.



Personally I'd give my eye teeth to be that kinda busy year round... Why not take a leaf out of FWW's book... encourage and use far more articles written by woodworkers themselves (Ian's tool cabinet for exmple)..?? Articles like that tend to be the ones I'll re-read time after time; I've spent a small fortune on back issues specifically to get a particular article...


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## Losos (6 Jul 2005)

Well, I've read all the thread and decided to subscribe. I sent an e-mail to ask about the European subscription price - Alf, your comments are very relevant to what I'm looking for in a mag. I already take one US woodworking magazine which I 'm happy with but my current UK mag. is not impressing me at all. I hope GWW will be closer to my needs.


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## Newbie_Neil (7 Jul 2005)

Hi Nick



Nick Gibbs":186dz43g said:


> Don't attack where we fall short, but praise what we get right. Understand you're not the only reader and give us the encouragement that's deserved of a team that works hours and hours to produce the best possible magazine we can.



I don't think people are attacking GWW, I believe that we're trying to be constructive and helping you understand what your target market would really like to see. This is amazing customer feedback. I wouldn't be writing this at 6.30am if I didn't care.




Nick Gibbs":186dz43g said:



> Well think of this: we produce a 100-page magazine (about 44,000 words, plus drawings and photos) every 19 working days. Yes 19 working days. And that's not forgetting holidays, sickness, meetings, staff changes and accountants, and many other interruptions (including the defence of our decisions and mistakes).



If it's a problem, do you really need to do it? Would it not be more cost effective to produce the magazine monthly? If the quality of the content was increased by reducing the number of issues I, for one, wouldn't complain if the subscription stayed at the current level.

Good luck, we really do want you to succeed.

Cheers
Neil


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## Anonymous (7 Jul 2005)

MikeW":2flcy45x said:


> So Alf and Chris,
> 
> Why not make a sticky that is for what our ideal magazine would be like? .



No!!!!!!

I don't like this idea at all. Not one bit

Everyone wants a different mag depending on their interests, experiences, needs, budget, history etc. 

Such a sticky will just provide a forum for critisism and vitriol + disagreement

A sticky is not a good idea in my opinion - the discussion is here and now.


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## MikeW (7 Jul 2005)

Tony":wgfmvo6s said:


> MikeW":wgfmvo6s said:
> 
> 
> > So Alf and Chris,
> ...


Geez, Tony. Take a breath. It might have been a dumb suggestion to you, but that's all it was. I wasn't calling for a trans-Atlantic rewrite of the Magna Carta.

The point of using a sticky (aren't they really just the same, except their location in a forum hierarchy?) would have been to allow people to see it as they enter the forum in order to add, modify etc. as ideas would have come to them.

There have only been a couple times in my brief stay here that I've seen things get heated. It certainly wasn't because people were adding ideas to a topic overtime as they saw fit that differed from others'.

But hey, we even disagree about this. Glad I won't get vitriol all over my shoes for it. :lol:


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## trevtheturner (7 Jul 2005)

I agree with Neil. I do not think that Good Woodworking is being 'attacked'. GWW has invited, on more than one occasion, comments and suggestions about the 'new look' magazine and these have obviously been honestly given - but they do, and will, come in the form of both support and constructive criticism.

Most of what has been said on here, from both readers and those with magazine production/marketing skills, has been said in a positive fashion. Hope you can see it that way, Nick. After all, people are only saying what they want to see in your mag., as you invited. Having said that I do realise that with many different views you cannot please all of the people all of the time. That presumably is where your judgement as the editor comes in. :wink: 

Incidentally, I notice, Nick, that you now refer to Good Woodworking as 'Good Wood'. Is there an underlying reason for this? Are we about to see a name change on the front cover?

Good luck from me, too.

Cheers,

Trev.
(who also would be happy with twelve issues a year)


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## trevtheturner (7 Jul 2005)

Hey, Mike, I understood your reasoning behind your suggestion okay. :wink: (Oh, and by the way, I do value your helpful contributions to these forums).

________________________________


Dunno why "criticism and vitriol + disagreement" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: needed to be entered into the discussion! In itself, unpleasant phraseology which doen't need to be initiated on here. :roll: I am sure that most, on whichever side of the pond, will agree. A simple 'I don't think it's a good idea' might have been sufficient!

Cheers,

Trev.


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## MikeW (7 Jul 2005)

Oh, Tony's comment didn't really bother me none.

How can it? It's 2 am here, I'm obviously sleep-walking and cannot think clearly enough to really care :lol:

To be clear, I wish Nick all my best--as well as all of you there who are desirous of a "local" magazine to meet the varied needs of those who wish to see it work out.

I would think the UK Workshop Forum users are fairly representitive of the British woodworking community. And I think Nick knows it. Trying to make a success of any type of business is difficult at best. In this day, publishing has to be one of the most difficult I would imagine.

He deserves even my support, which may just end up being some empty words thrown at a keyboard in the middle of the night. Why? Because he has dared to expose himself, his vision and has asked the forum for input, encouragement and support. It's the least I can do.


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## StevieB (7 Jul 2005)

Well, since comments were invited, I give the new look magazine a cautious thumbs up :wink:

I think there was more content, stemming from a greater number of shorter articles. The upside is if you are not interested in a particular article its only a couple of pages, the downside is a loss of depth in those articles you really are interested in. Formats and fonts, colour boxes etc are not a major problem as far as I am concerned, these things change and are stylistic rather than content based.

As to specific comments, I actually liked the woodland article. I ride past a woodland for sale sign every day on the way to work and often wondered what exactly it was, now I know. I ws intrigued by one of the letters in the first new issue praising the new layout however :shock: Either I have missed an issue somewhere along the line or some people really can see into the future :lol: 

As for what I would like to see, well as mentioned somewhere before a masterclass on finishing would be most welcome. Perhaps even a regular column. This is the one area I feel is often overlooked but makes such a difference to final pieces. I have only a basic (very basic) knowledge of French polishing, and even less of when to apply what finish - particularly when it comes to oils. An idiots guide on the various approaches and when to apply them, building on each other month by month so that even experienced finishers, who may not need the initial idiots guide, would benefit from advanced finishing techniques to be dealt with after the basics.

As for anticipation, as has been stated here so often is that we a a small, but broad based target audience. Would a 'part work approach' whereby a particular topic or subject was carried over multiple issues encourage purchase of future issues? Starting off basic but getting more advanced once the basics are covered? I started buying GWW when Andy King built his workshop - it took several issues and kept me buying as I was following the series while planning my own - the tip about trippling thickness of timbers in the corners to allow boarding of the inside was particularly useful and something I never would have thought of. Ideas that might fit this approach are techniques eg finishing, routing techniques, sharpening techniques, or reviews of a series of tools - how many of us read Alf's initial plane reviews then kept pestering for more reviews?! I know some if not all of these topics are covered in individual articles, but a part work approach would allow the depth people crave without devoting half an issue to the difference between a 25 and 30 degree angle on a plane blade for example.

Just my 2 pence worth :wink: 

Oh, and I think the reason there are 13 issues not 12 is that mags work to a 4 week cycle, not a monthly one. Thus its 7 (8 weekly) or 13 rather than being 12. I could be entirely wrong of course, wouldnt be the first time as SWMBO keeps reminding me.....:roll: 

Steve.


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## Anonymous (7 Jul 2005)

MikeW":nz4ve611 said:


> [Geez, Tony. Take a breath. It might have been a dumb suggestion to you,
> . :lol:



sorry Mike, I seem to have gotten more carried away with my post than I thought  . 


I don't understand Trev's comment on "criticism and vitriol + disagreement" - clearly this was not aimed at you but the potential of such a thread :roll: :roll: 

In my year and a half here, I've seen plenty of all of those - it is why I became a moderator and spend more time than is good for me looking through posts and moderating where appropriate.


The majority of comments in this current thread about GWW are negative rather than positive (despite soem claims to the contrary). Try to find the praise for Nick and the crew who have worked hard to bring changes :roll: 


My point is this:
I don't want to see a sticky full of negative stuff at the top of a forum listing for new members to stumble across as their first exposure to the forum. 

I think a sticky about mag content is not a good idea for this reason.


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## sxlalan (7 Jul 2005)

Tony":2cq6xyxn said:


> The majority of comments in this current thread about GWW are negative rather than positive (despite soem claims to the contrary). Try to find the praise for Nick and the crew who have worked hard to bring changes :roll:



As long as the negative comments are constructive I don't have a problem with this. Positive comments are nice but don't help you to improve what you are doing.

Alan


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## Anonymous (7 Jul 2005)

sxlalan":3fpz2i8g said:


> Tony":3fpz2i8g said:
> 
> 
> > The majority of comments in this current thread about GWW are negative rather than positive (despite soem claims to the contrary). Try to find the praise for Nick and the crew who have worked hard to bring changes :roll:
> ...



I don't disagree with you on this point Alan. Would be nice to see praise for the good stuff - areas that have been improved though.


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## sxlalan (7 Jul 2005)

Fair comment. I have tried 3 news agents so far and haven't been able to find a copy yet so can't provide any praise of my own :shock: . Hopefully this means that the mag is rushing off the shelves!


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## Alf (7 Jul 2005)

Tony":ycsso8w6 said:


> My point is this:
> I don't want to see a sticky full of negative stuff at the top of a forum listing for new members to stumble across as their first exposure to the forum.


Better get that list of suppliers' websites down PDQ then... :wink: 

As I understand it, Mike was proposing a sticky containing people's dreams and visions of what they'd like to see in a woodworking magazine. Not automatically negative, I wouldn't have thought? As it happens I tend to resist stickies too, but simply because there's a danger of needing to go to page 2 before you start on the active threads... 

Now looking back I've actually restrained myself from listing _all_ the stuff I have a problem with, but for the positive seekers, I give you:
Huzzah, no more David Savage.
Huzzah, book reviews are given a little more space to make them more useful.
Huzzah, for the "Source Book" at the end of some articles
Huzzah, for the second opinion, as long as it's not always the same person's second opinion (sorry, I know it was supposed to be solely positive...)
Huzzah, all the DIY stuff I don't want to read is in one place so I can avoid it. (there I go again - but that is a sort of positive)
Huzzah, Andy's tool reviews haven't all been fatally shortened.

Cheers, Alf


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## mudman (7 Jul 2005)

Alf":2ym733fa said:


> Huzzah, no more David Savage.



My word! :shock: 
Whatever shall I do without his unique insights into the world of woodworking. :? 
But then, does that mean I can go back to using a honing guide now? :wink: 

Edited to make more use of irony and to prevent any further scary moments.


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## MikeW (7 Jul 2005)

My appologies to all if I tipped the scales towards criticism of this process, rather than constructive thoughts on what makes a good magazine.

My thought had been simply as this was a thread specifically having to do with a magazine I do not have access to (GWW) a separate thread for a general magazine wish list was made.

A publisher, currently only Nick, could then take it for what it is worth and not specifically a list of failings towards his magazine directly.

So sincere appologies especially to Tony for the little bit of a cheeky reply to his comments.

The mods here do a fantastic job for keeping this a civil place and I for one don't desire for it to become an onerous task for them.

Ok then, I'll get a hold of Nick and Company and see about getting a copy of the magazine, maybe a past issue as well and see if I can become a constructive contributor to this thread.

My best to all,

Mike Wenzloff


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## Midnight (7 Jul 2005)

Call me argumentative if it's applicable, but I reckon the idea of a "wish list" sticky is one of the more sensible I've heard in a while... I'll tell ya why too...

With very few exceptions, every new issue of GWW spawns a "whatchya think of the latest issue" thread... suitable amounts of air gets blown up applicable backsides for a few days before the fuss dies down and the thread becomes engulfed by subsequent new posts... Sticky status keeps the thread at the top of the list and can be added to whenever it's appropriate to do so...

re feedback...
While I'm no wordsmith, I've built a career from building high quality products, working largely without any feedback and guidance... While I do my utmost to see to it that every project I'm responsible for benefits from the highest workmanship I'm capable of, there's time when despite good intentions, I drop the ball... something doesn't quite work properly... 
In such instances what I NEED is to be told that x,y or z was wrong for whatever reason... without that kinda feedback I can't ensure that the error isn't repeated in subsequent builds... 
I'm not the kinda guy who responds to hot air blown up the wazzoo... I don't expect or need praise for doing what I'm supposed to do, however its nice to get a thankyou for efforts above and beyond my job description or regular working hours.. 

IMHO Nick, Andy and Martin have demonstrated a lot of guts with their frequent invitations to comment on their efforts, welcoming comments favorable or otherwise as both form key aspects of constructive criticism (how can ya fix it if ya donno what's broke???)... While I maay not agree with their definition of a quality product, I have to respect their participation in such threads... they've demonstrated that they've earned that respect the hard way...

I've yet to wire the ultimate ROV control system; there's always room for improvement, but I'm experienced enough to know I've come pretty bloody close a few times, and thanks to feedback the quality of product leaving my bench thesedays far exceeds my efforts back in the early days... the day that feedback stops is the day my workmanship quality begins to suffer... personally I consider that prospect unacceptable...


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## Jake (7 Jul 2005)

Please no more stickies. They get put up and never reviewed, and eventually the live threads are shoved over onto page two of the forum, which is totally offputting. One in, one out, if they are necessary at all. Please!


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## Anonymous (7 Jul 2005)

Hi All,

I've kept well away from this one after my last attempt at justifying both myself and the mag, but anyway... 8-[ 
The comments here, both positive and negative are welcome as it gives us an insight of what readers are after.
Watching the exceptional hard work put in by the main guys involved on the redesign, and also the editorial work beyond it leaves me with nothing but admiration.
Certainly there are some radical changes that upset some while others love it, and there are bits that I maybe would have kept, but that's the nature of the beast. We are getting plenty of comments via email and letter as well as here, and I know Nick is taking note of them all.
At the end of it is the desire to put a mag out that we hope readers will enjoy and equally importantly, will continue to hold its own in a difficult market. If we choose a route that is on the wane, or fail to freshen brighten and try to improve, the result will be readers voting with their feet and the demise of another woody mag.
It's not until you try something that it gets reaction. Our old look generated very little , but only a few days in and we have a postbag, web postings and emails enough to print a supplement!
Nick's idea to make the mag more of a 'pick up, put down, pick up again' by packing it with short features and snippets seems to have worked well, some readers like it, others not, but the transition is in its infancy, so will change further i've no doubt.

cheers
Andy

edit: Incidentally, this pales into insignificance after the atrocities of today. Both myself and the rest of the GW team send our sympathies to those who were caught up in an act of total cowardice.


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## frank (7 Jul 2005)

have you noticed the rest of the magazines are a wee bit quiet ,well to scared to even show them selves on this forum .and nick i did go and get copy but will wait to see what you do with the mag in the next few months .at least you and the team are having a go at trying to fix it .


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## Newbie_Neil (8 Jul 2005)

Hi Andy



andy king":1exiraze said:


> I've kept well away from this one after my last attempt at justifying both myself and the mag, but anyway...



Good to see you back. Your input is always appreciated. :wink: 

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (8 Jul 2005)

Jake":2mlb0m5v said:


> Please no more stickies. They get put up and never reviewed


They are currently under review as we speak, Jake. It's a fair point; we need to keep on top of our housekeeping. :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (20 Oct 2005)

Javier":2xvj47ee said:


> Howdie Nick Gibbs. I used to enjoy your magazine a few years back here in the
> States. I was following a series by John Brown on building windsor chairs using only
> hand tools. Halfway through the series it was no longer available at any of the



yes, the John Brown  isn't he "Jester" :idea:


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## Alf (20 Oct 2005)

Welcome to the forum, traewerk, and nope. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Jake (20 Oct 2005)

Alf":su4j7e02 said:


> Jake":su4j7e02 said:
> 
> 
> > Please no more stickies. They get put up and never reviewed
> ...



It wasn't meant to be a pop at the mods here, it is just a general trait of fora with sticky threads. I have seen a couple where you have to go the second or third page to get passed the stickies to the live threads. This place is spick and span by comparison.


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## Anonymous (21 Oct 2005)

Alf":16hwqgft said:


> Welcome to the forum, traewerk, and nope.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I'm not convinced;
1) Yahoo group of Jacob Butler, Jester suddenly disappeared.
2) MSN group ukww, Jester......
3) JB gww, gone :roll:


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## Alf (21 Oct 2005)

Trust me - be very convinced. =; 

Cheers, Alf


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## Gill (21 Oct 2005)

Hi Traewerk

John Brown was not 'Jester'; you're putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. I suspect that those of us who know what became of Jester would thank you for not pursuing the matter any further. Let the past be the past.

Gill


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## Anonymous (21 Oct 2005)

Alf":op7wq026 said:


> Trust me - be very convinced. =;
> 
> Cheers, Alf



very, very convinced! - and let the past be the past


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## Alf (21 Oct 2005)

Nice one, guys. :roll: The aura of mystery you've just created would have impressed Hitchcock. ](*,) :lol: 

But seriously, perhaps better to put this one to bed properly. Traewerk, I _know_ it wasn't John Brown 'cos it was *my* nickname at the time. But I'm flattered to have been mistaken for one of my handtooling heroes.  

Cheers, Alf

Who's just realised she's going to hit exactly two years since her first post with _this_ nickname tomorrow! :shock: Time for a new one...? :-k :wink:


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## tim (21 Oct 2005)

Alf":17xlcawo said:


> the aura of mystery you've just created would have impressed Hitchcock



Indeed! Come on then - what happened  

Cheers

Tim


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## llangatwgnedd (21 Oct 2005)

Nah, John Brown was from one of the Rhondda Valleys .
Jester was from the smoke.



> Who's just realised she's going to hit exactly two years since her first post with this nickname tomorrow! Time for a new one...?



Umph, newbies

Oh btw whats all these avators with Long John Silver on :lol: :wink:


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## Gill (21 Oct 2005)

Sawdust Producer":110ssovc said:


> whats all these avators with Long John Silver on


Name a heroic famous Welsh sailor :twisted:  




.

Gill


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## llangatwgnedd (21 Oct 2005)

> Name a heroic famous Welsh sailor .



Captain Morgan :lol: and of course my Grandad


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## Alf (21 Oct 2005)

Sawdust Producer":ldfl9m9l said:


> > Name a heroic famous Welsh sailor .
> 
> 
> 
> Captain Morgan :lol: of course


ROTFL :lol: :lol: Pretty sure there were a few Welshmen at Trafalgar, SDP. Maybe the news hasn't reached you yet? :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## llangatwgnedd (21 Oct 2005)

As long its not talk like a Pirate week :? :wink:


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## Alf (21 Oct 2005)

Sawdust Producer":2m4lr0a1 said:


> As long its not talk like a Pirate week :? :wink:


Luckily we missed it this year. Although I saw at the Falmouth Oyster* Festival that the Jubilee Sailing Trust are trying out a "Wear an Eyepatch Day". Works better in real life than online though...





Cheers, Alf

* I was misinformed. I thought I'd see something veneered in Laburnham. Turned out they meant things in shells. :roll:


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## Gill (21 Oct 2005)

Hmmmm.... Captain Morgan was the one that sprang to my mind, too. Definitely a colourful character who pursued a successful career, but a hero? That's debatable. After all, he died in his bed, didn't he?

I always thought a British hero had to be:


1. Reckless enough to get himself hopelessly outnumbered in a scrape; and,
2. Good enough to do better than seemed par for the course; and,
3. Opportunely posthumous.

So Nelson* and Wolfe were heroes, whereas Wellington wasn't.

 

Gill

* Edited to correct silly mistake pointed out later in this thread


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## Alf (21 Oct 2005)

Gill":2bf5tvll said:


> Hmmmm.... Captain Morgan was the one that sprang to my mind, too. Definitely a colourful character who pursued a successful career, but a hero? That's debatable. After all, he died in his bed, didn't he?


Good rum, though...



Gill":2bf5tvll said:


> I always thought a British hero had to be:
> 
> 
> 1. Reckless enough to get himself hopelessly outnumbered a scrape; and,
> ...


Nelson and Wolfe mebbe?  Nosey was a hero, no question. He just didn't court the publicity like Nel, and he wasn't loved by his men as Nelson was. Dammit, he met the greatest general at Waterloo and managed to hold out. He knew what he was good at, and he used it to fine effect. If he had a weakness it was impatience - particularly in seige situations, which often lead to unnecessary bloodshed. In an era of heroes, he was certainly one.

Sorry, you've got me on a subject a bit close to my heart. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Gill (21 Oct 2005)

Thanks for pointing out my error, Alf. Duly amended now  .

Wellington was undoubtedly very successful but I don't think you can compare him to the likes of Nelson, Wolfe, Grenville or even H Jones. I regard him as a great man, but not necessarily a heroic one. And he certainly wasn't loved by the public, especially after he became Prime Minister. He was never forgiven for what happened at St Peter's Field in Manchester, even if it wasn't his fault.


Errr.... sorry to have have veered so hopelessly off topic (again :roll . Perhaps a Moderator could remove some of these posts into the "Off-Topic" section?

Gill

PS Wanna scrollsaw portrait pattern of Nelson? I'm sure I could knock one up of Wellington too, if you want. Your Delta saw must be feeling a bit unloved right now - go on, give it a treat   .


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## tim (22 Oct 2005)

Well I for one am a big fan of a 52 gun salute. Did you see it on the box.

Magic

Cheers

Tim


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## Gill (22 Oct 2005)

Wasn't it impressive, Tim? No wonder the "Redoubtable" couldn't withstand the barrage.

And as Alf's pointed out - "Victory", like others in the fleet, was made by British woodworkers out of British oak. Kinda makes you feel proud.

Gill


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## Alf (22 Oct 2005)

Gill":3cx1913x said:


> Errr.... sorry to have have veered so hopelessly off topic (again :roll . Perhaps a Moderator could remove some of these posts into the "Off-Topic" section?


Wouldn't know where to start, to be honest. The last two pages are all off topic - but _different_ topics... :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## tim (22 Oct 2005)

Gill":28x95f37 said:


> And as Alf's pointed out - "Victory", like others in the fleet, was made by British woodworkers out of British oak. Kinda makes you feel proud.



Indeed - apart from the ones captured and renamed! It was a great moment - wish I could have been there.

Cheers

Tim


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