# New T&G Pine Floorboards...why so difficult?



## shimmers (9 Sep 2014)

Hi all, newby here and absolute beginner diy'er. I have small victorian terrace which I am working on. Removed all the original pine square edge boards, of which I do not have enough of to salvage and am considering replacing with Redwood T&G apprx 21mm thick. Have spoken to both Champion timber and Travis Perkins who stock the said item, but both made the same noises and whistled through their teeth when I said I was intending to use a the finished floor! Not suitable pal...got some lovey engineered here...etc, etc...Apparently they have been instructed by those upstairs not to recommend the T&G as a finish..only for patching or sub-floor use.

Why is this so difficult fgs...all I want to do is retain the character of the original Victorian property, whilst insulating below the boards...The draughts in winter were unbelievable.

All I've read is that the best chance I stand is to keep any new boards in the room for as long as poss, ie, 3 or 4 weeks to acclimatize as best as possible, but other than that, I can't find anyone who seems to offer T&G Redwood properly dried down to about 8-10%...which at least gives me a head start on acclimatizing.
Or am I fighting a losing battle here?

I refuse, point blank, to fit a sub floor, followed by laminate. I despise the stuff. I would consider engineered planks, but again I have the extra costs of a sub-floor, which I cant afford...and I certainly can't afford a constructional solid Oak or similar, to lay straight to the joists.

Does anyone know suppliers that can vouch for their pine T&G, or know anywhere I can get some good quality stuff.
I'm in SW London and would appreciate your thoughts and advice, cos I'm getting a bit frustrated at the mo!


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## Zeddedhed (9 Sep 2014)

Try Alsford Timber.
They have branches in Mortlake and Twickenham.

http://www.alsfordtimber.com/branch-locator


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## AndyT (9 Sep 2014)

I sympathise with you but I think the merchants are telling you the truth. We no longer have access to mature trees of the sort of quality available when your house was built. Previous generations did not care about sustainable forestry.

About 15 years ago our neighbours had a loft conversion done. Like you, they wanted simple T&G pine flooring, like they had in the rest of the house. Their (very good) builder warned them but reluctantly agreed to fit the best he could buy. Within a year, there were gaps back to the limit of the tongues and many of the boards had cupped badly. They later treated it like an old floor and sanded over the whole room to get it level again - but it still looks a disappointment.

When I needed to replace some of our floors, I screwed 12mm ply down onto the joists, then foam underlay, then decent quality 14mm engineered wood as a floating floor (4mm oak on 10mm pine backing). It's not old, it's not original, but you can walk across it in bare feet and it's easy to keep clean.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2014)

In view of the likelihood of the boards cupping (potentially badly - as Andy said) 21mm is rather on the thin side.


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## gwr (9 Sep 2014)

I would say 21mm is just a little too thin most t&g floors that I have lifted or patched are inch and an eighth in old money.
Still readily available in this area in most merchants Up norf and used as a finnished floor.You still get some movement with it but not to the extent of the 21mm. I think the smaller 21mm boards are a lower quality timber just my opinion.

Have you tried a reclamation yard just a thought.


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## Fatboy (9 Sep 2014)

Reclamation is the way to go to try and match what was there but I agree with everyone else, 21mm T&G just won't cut it, dried or not


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2014)

Have been patching up 140 year old 6x1 square edged board. The new stuff Swedish 5th bought sawn and planed up by me is almost exactly the same. If you plane it yourself you get better thickness - the underside may have saw marks.
Have also done a large floor are in bog standard 6x1 T&G redwood which finishes about 21x135. Had it drying first, for 6 months or longer. Laid it without nailing for the last few weeks to give it a final drying out. There is some shrinkage but only to be expected at this end of the year. Finished with Osmo oil and it looks good. it's a bit soft so it will pick up indentations from furniture etc but that's also to be expected and you live with it. Loose carpets here and there.
You get what you pay for but may have to shop around, or machine it yourself, for anything better than ordinary.



> We no longer have access to mature trees of the sort of quality available when your house was built.


Trueish, but beside the point as (say) 6" floor board would be cut from the same size/age tree then as now, bigger stuff being set aside for wider boards.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2014)

Same size, but slower grown maybe? Some of the stuff sold nowadays would have won a growth race with a bamboo.


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2014)

phil.p":1pnw59yb said:


> Same size, but slower grown maybe? Some of the stuff sold nowadays would have win a growth race with a bamboo.


Better/wider quality was more available as they cut virgin forest in N Europe/America and Russia but they sorted and graded just as we do and used rubbish too (not including MDF!).

I forgot to add - laying boards un-nailed to be cramped and nailed later after a bit of shrinkage - we covered the boards with Protec sheet (similar to Tyvek roofing felt) and put ply or chipboard on top of this, so that other building processes could go on whilst the boards shrank a little more
Protec is good value - tough stuff - can be re-used.


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## rhrwilliams (9 Sep 2014)

I recently put a load of 9" x 1 1/8" flooring down . I planed it up myself from sawn .

No problems , wedged it up tight , countersunk screwed . No gaps at all and solid as a rock. 

I think if the timber is decent and from a good place (e.g not sitting in a yard in the rain for weeks) it will be fine . 

I looked at loads of timber yards at PAR stuff and it was all a) expensive and b) rubbish quality


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## rhrwilliams (9 Sep 2014)

That's a really good idea laying it loose and nailing it later


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## Fat ferret (9 Sep 2014)

You would be fine with inch red pine, I did this upstairs prior to stud partitions and looks grand two years on with hard wax oil finish. I did do my workshop loft in 3/4" white pine which isn't as nice but I bought it, laid it and then installed a wood burner underneath and it's still tight 4 months later, bit creaky but original joists were uneven. Good tip about laying without nails to allow shrinkage.


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## srp (10 Sep 2014)

I did my kitchen floor in spruce t and g a couple of years ago, laid on treated battens with Kingspan, on a concrete sub floor. No problems. Finished in Osmo PolyX. As Jacob said, it's a bit soft so picks up the odd dent, but that's all part of using it. If I had spent hundreds on engineered stuff or laminate I'd have been disappointed, as wear and tear is much more noticeable and impossible to repair.
I would definitely do the same thing again, and it's the best sort of flooring for a kitchen in my opinion ( or any room where you don't have carpet).


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## shimmers (10 Sep 2014)

Wow. Thanks for all the replies people. Apologies for not quoting you all individually, I haven't quite got the hang of that yet. I take on board all your advice which I will mull over. I must admit, I bought a 4' length of the Champion Redwood T&G just as a sample and it LOOKS like it would do the job...but of course I have no way of knowing what's going to happen to the full planks. The other thing that annoys me...is...'can you supply me 30 lengths at 3.6m'...well, no, it comes as mixed lengths! Doh! I don't bloody want mixed lengths across my floor thanks very much! Re acclimatizing, I did have the same thought to rough lay them and let them acclimatize, as I really don't have room to store them properly in the house any other way. I see the idea of weighting them down, but I thought the timber would do it's own thing anyway and once released, if it wanted to cup...it would spring out cupped! 

I checked out Alsford Timber as suggested and looked at their standard grade redwood planks, thinking I could get them tongue and grooved by someone..got a shock at the price..150 x 25 nom...£5 a metre. Is that not equivalent to £33 sq m..or is my maths off!...and that's without T&G finish and finished size in the equation. It says, 'consistent moisture content', which means pipper all doesn't it...it could well be consistent...at 35%...(and how would they keep it 'consistent' anyway?...they got a special magic cupboard?) minimised twist/bow and no wane...I should bloody think so at that price. So, much to mull over I suppose. I will look at the re-claim route also now, see if that's the way forward.
So, in case plan B comes in, which would be ply sub-floor with engineered over...has anyone any experience with the 'Wisa' Brand 'Spruce floor' which comes in 18 or 22mm T&G 8' x 2' planks, I put it in the search box in a minute. Thanks for your help all of you.


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## Sgian Dubh (10 Sep 2014)

shimmers":dmxj3owd said:


> It says, 'consistent moisture content', which means pipper all doesn't it...it could well be consistent...at 35%...


It means in this particular case kiln dried to a target MC of 20% ±2% because this is what construction grade timber of this type is dried to, for three reasons.
***1. It's reasonably close to the MC it will reach in service, i.e., between about 18% (roof joists perhaps) and maybe 8% MC or so in very dry locations (boxing in around heating elements for example).
***2. 20% MC is the dry rot safe MC, i.e., dry rot will not grow, and of all the fungi dry rot is the only one that can survive in MC conditions of just over 20%.
***3. Drying to a target of 20% MC saves the cost of drying to the target MC for furniture grade wood, i.e., 11% MC ±2% in Europe, and 7% MC ±2% in North America. 



shimmers":dmxj3owd said:


> ...(and how would they keep it 'consistent' anyway?...they got a special magic cupboard?)


Not a magic cupboard, but it will have been close stacked (aka dead stacked) out of the kiln to minimise air circulation, and frequently the pack of wood will be banded and shrink wrapped in plastic at the same time prior to delivery to the wood merchant. None of these strategies eliminate changes in wood MC, but they do extend the time required for changes in atmospheric RH (the primary cause of wood MC variation when it's at or below 20% MC) and temperature (minor effect) to affect MC. Slainte.


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## carlb40 (10 Sep 2014)

shimmers":1v5inn68 said:


> Wow. Thanks for all the replies people. Apologies for not quoting you all individually, I haven't quite got the hang of that yet. I take on board all your advice which I will mull over. I must admit, I bought a 4' length of the Champion Redwood T&G just as a sample and it LOOKS like it would do the job...but of course I have no way of knowing what's going to happen to the full planks. The other thing that annoys me...is...'can you supply me 30 lengths at 3.6m'...well, no, it comes as mixed lengths! Doh! I don't bloody want mixed lengths across my floor thanks very much! Re acclimatizing, I did have the same thought to rough lay them and let them acclimatize, as I really don't have room to store them properly in the house any other way. I see the idea of weighting them down, but I thought the timber would do it's own thing anyway and once released, if it wanted to cup...it would spring out cupped!
> 
> I checked out Alsford Timber as suggested and looked at their standard grade redwood planks, thinking I could get them tongue and grooved by someone..got a shock at the price..150 x 25 nom...£5 a metre. Is that not equivalent to £33 sq m..or is my maths off!...and that's without T&G finish and finished size in the equation. It says, 'consistent moisture content', which means pipper all doesn't it...it could well be consistent...at 35%...(and how would they keep it 'consistent' anyway?...they got a special magic cupboard?) minimised twist/bow and no wane...I should bloody think so at that price. So, much to mull over I suppose. I will look at the re-claim route also now, see if that's the way forward.
> So, in case plan B comes in, which would be ply sub-floor with engineered over...has anyone any experience with the 'Wisa' Brand 'Spruce floor' which comes in 18 or 22mm T&G 8' x 2' planks, I put it in the search box in a minute. Thanks for your help all of you.



The best thing you could do is either hire a van or get someone with a roof rack and get them yourself. You could probably sort through and get what you want that way. Otherwise you stand a chance of getting lumbered with carp boards, which would need an allowance of wastage.


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## RobinBHM (10 Sep 2014)

I think wisa spruce floor is great for a workshop, I dont think it would be attrsctive for a floor. Its also quite expensive.

Champions import their own timber and in my experience it is generally quite good quality.

New softwood floorboards are unlikely to be as hard as the originals. Most new softwood is from plantation forests in scandinavia. Very slow grown timber wont be available for flooring. 

Budget floorboards are whitewood, which is spruce (same as studwork timber). Redwood floorboards are scots pine. Redwood timber is split into a number of grades, sixths, fifths and grades 1 to 4 known as unsorted. You may find that joinery grade 25 x 150 is dearer than floorboards as it is a better grade. Thin boards such as the 25mm thickness boards are often sideboards, making them heart and pith free and quite clean. Unfortunately it also means they have a 'smiley face' and prone to noticeable cupping.

Although they may tell you 'we can only supply random lengths', in practice it actually entirely depends on what pack lengths are in stock at the time. If you can visit the yard you may be able to find out if they could cover 3.6's and longer


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## shimmers (12 Sep 2014)

Interesting. Thanks Sgian. I was being a little flippant, due to my frustration! This is exacerbated when I constantly open up timber suppliers web pages for floorboards...only to find they are in the US. There, they seem to still have a huge interest in timber floors, walls, ceilings..you name it, they'll clad it in the stuff. I know a little about solid wood acoustic guitars...and find the similarities with flooring discussions quite striking. In the US, they have such variable humidity north, south, east and west, that they are very aware of moisture problems, especially when their guitar can cost a few grand. Thanks for all the replies. I am still musing on my choices.


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2014)

carlb40":yfkcfy11 said:


> .......
> The best thing you could do is either hire a van or get someone with a roof rack and get them yourself. You could probably sort through and get what you want that way. Otherwise you stand a chance of getting lumbered with carp boards, which would need an allowance of wastage.


Getting stuff from a yard which will allow you to sort is not always a good idea for 2 reasons - the pile may have been sorted earlier, the best bits taken and now be lower grade on average, and it takes a lot of time. Better to order by grade and take it as it comes, delivered.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2014)

Good point - but it's easier to refuse it when it's still in their pile.


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## No skills (12 Sep 2014)

I prefer having my piles sorted.


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## tomf (12 Sep 2014)

I've laid this before and had no troubles with it.
http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Bordeaux ... m/p/124000


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## cornishjoinery (16 Sep 2014)

The problem is you get what you pay for in life, good quality timber earns good money. I think either you need to re think what you want and go for a cheaper option or wait and save up more cash. Reclamation would be a good source but they still come out quit deer. I think what happens alot of the time is people move into old houses packed with bags of character and don't realise how much money they eat up. good luck my friend.


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## shimmers (18 Sep 2014)

Just a quick update. Experiment time. 4 weeks ago I bought a 1500mm length of the redwood T&G flooring from Champion Timber. This has been layed flat, on spacers, in the front room for that period. It has developed a SLIGHT cupping. About 1mm over it's 143mm face, but nothing that a secret nailing or screwing couldnt take out. Encouraged by this, I bought 2 more lengths at 3m...3 days ago...to continue the experiment. I will check these lengths from time to time. Both came reasonably flat. They are stacked with timber spacers to give them fair chance and I've even been flicking on the heating each night for an hour or so...(much to my OH's bemusement!)
My gut feeling at the moment says that this timber will work, though I am aware that a few proper seasons could change my mind. I'm also thinking..and I may be wrong..if I'm buying the whole 30m sq, it would be best to buy soon, before the really damp air comes with autumn/winter. In my mind, that timber would need even more acclimatizing. It's covered at the timber yard, but open to the atmosphere of course. Looking at the rack at Champion, I was quite impressed with the pine itself. It has very few knots, splits, bows and cups, even at 4.5m...and the guy did say that it was a premium grade.
This was the second Champion Timber near me...and what a difference with the staff there. Seemed much more knowledgeable and very helpful. '30 lengths at 3.5m sir...no problem.'... Now that's what I want to hear. This was the first timber yard that actually told ME that plywood was not graded or called WBP anymore...but that was their mistake, which they probably regretted immediately, as I then cross examined them on Plywood codes EN-314 part 2/ grades 1/2 & 3. So tho I left them a lot wiser than before I visited...it will mean that the next time I go down there...they will all be seen quickly scurrying to the nearest dark dingy corner :shock: ...or will be 'on lunch'. I tend to have this effect on people, ha! :lol: :mrgreen: 
So, at the moment, it does look a possible go'er.


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