# Advice - Built in cupboards



## Sagly (7 Jul 2011)

Hi everyone,

I've been nosing around here for a while and have been inspired to have a go at making my own built-in cupboards either side of my fireplace. It'll be the first 'big' woodworking project that I have attempted so i'm after a bit of advice.

I want to create something similar to this:





In these alcoves:




Would I be better off building a frame or a kitchen unit style unit? Any advice would be VERY MUCH appreciated!


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## joiner_sim (10 Jul 2011)

Welcome to the forum!

The style of unit is really down to how nice a finish you would like. A kitchen unit style in my opinion will look the most professional when finished, but will probably also cost the most. A wooden frame type construction can be done fairly easily, but certainly wont be finished off as nice. I built some wardrobes using a "frame" type construction, which you can see on the projects section of my website.


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## Benchwayze (10 Jul 2011)

Hi Sagly, 

Welcome aboard. 

I'm not sure what you mean by kitchen-style. Do you mean stand-alone cupboards on a levelled base? Which would be fine. 

Now, I don't do this for a living, but:

If you decide to build-in, it's a help if you ensure the alcoves are made plumb first. 
If building in a wardrobe for instance, I would line the alcove with ply or at least MDF, on 'grid pattern' grounds. Then you have only one spell of drilling walls. The rest of the construction is easily screwed to the lining work, as long as you know where your grounds are, or the lining is thick enough to take screws. (Depends on how massive the cupboard construction is going to be.) 

Depending on the width of the alcoves, I would also buy some bookcase strip and supports, so you can make the shelves adjustable. If you put solid wooden uprights at the side, this strip can be set flush in routed grooves. If the alcove is much wider than 30 ins (750mm) then to minimise sag, use solid wood at least 25mm thick and fix the shelves to height on end bearers, with a batten beneath the rear edge. 

I like the featured design overall, and it would exactly fit my living room. The main problem is SWIMBO. She just will NOT counsel a move round of furniture, so most of the work would be hidden by the end of the sofa! 

Hope my 'techie' contribution is of help. If it's not, there will be someone along to correct me I am sure. 

Regards


John


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## Lardman (10 Jul 2011)

There have been some excellent alcove projects posted, mainly from MDF for the bedroom but the principle is the same have a search for "alcove"

I attempted a similar project a few weeks back (its still in pieces in the spare room after my epic failure). IMHO you'll do much better building a carcase for the cupboard than you would trying to fit it into the alcove on it own. Have you checked the measurements of the alcove - mine was all over the place, it wasn't square or parallel and the walls were the best part 2inches off vertical I spent ages trying to fit thing and it still looked a complete pile of pineapple.


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## jasonB (10 Jul 2011)

I would build an open topped & fronted box a bit like a kitchen carcase that is say 25mm smaller each side of your alcove. This can then be leveled either on adj feet or simple packed up frame. Then add a skirting and side fillers scribed to the wall & floor. Next scribe the countertop to teh 3 walls and then fit to the top of the carcase, finally add your doors.

J


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## Benchwayze (10 Jul 2011)

jasonB":21qmlywb said:


> I would build an open topped & fronted box a bit like a kitchen carcase that is say 25mm smaller each side of your alcove. This can then be leveled either on adj feet or simple packed up frame. Then add a skirting and side fillers scribed to the wall & floor. Next scribe the countertop to teh 3 walls and then fit to the top of the carcase, finally add your doors.
> 
> J



Yup, that would work too. In my case it might lose me 50mm of valuable space. Good plan though Jason. 
John


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## Sagly (10 Jul 2011)

Well, here's an update:

I searched for 'alcove' on this forum and found a REALLY useful post by BradNaylor https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post345489.html?hilit=scribing skirting#p345489

......so useful in fact that I have completely plagiarised it!

So here is what i've got after a Sunday morning trip to B & Q and an afternoon of butchery in my front room (her indoors is not happy about the sawdust in the new gas fire!)


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## Sagly (10 Jul 2011)

so now i've ordered som kitchen unit legs from ebay so I can get rid of the lumps of wood it's stood on and some more screws for my pocket hole jig (which I used to make the doors):






I love that little thing! I got it off ebay last week and i've been walking round the house trying to find other places to use it!

My alcoves are quite square except the one i'm working on is wider at the back than the front. This hasn't been a problem until now but when I come to fit the top (which will be the most expensive bit) I will be a bit stuck. Any ideas?

Thanks for all the replies by the way, it's all very helpful indeed!


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## Benchwayze (10 Jul 2011)

Hi Sagly, 

If you use a pocket-hole jig, you might find the two links useful, esp for cupboards. You might already know about these videos, but in case you don't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYdCv5R786c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpwNCZGQLY

I think it's an ideal system for beginners, and also for cabinets in workshops and sheds etc.. But it gets expensive buying the screws. The alternative is a pan-head or round-head screw (Varying sizes) with a coarse thread. Also, if you wish, buy some small washers to use under the heads. They don't have to be square-drive screws. A good cross-head drive is just as effective. What's most important with the pocket screw is not to over-drive them, thus stripping the wood and reducing the holding power. 

I hope you'll persevere and learn to make joints though! (For the nicer bits of furniture.) :wink: 

Regards 
John


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## Sagly (10 Jul 2011)

John,

Those are very useful videos, thanks. Thanks for the advice on the screws as well, I just paid the best part of £15 Iincluding postage) for 500 screws and I only need another 24. 30 if you allow for droping a few through the gaps in the floorboards!

When I did a little test of the pocket hole screws I found out that they drag the second peice of wood up and displace the joint, due to the angle of the screw. It behaved itself when I put a clamp across the joint though.

I would love to do a better job of it all but I'm seriously lacking tools. I think a bench saw will be going on my Christmas list! A jig saw is next on the shopping list though, so that I can cut a hole for the electric sockets behind the cupboards.


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## jasonB (11 Jul 2011)

Hope you ordered the short kitchen legs as it looks like you don't need much more than 100mm, I use the "bigfoot" ones that come in various nominal lengths when I do them with legs. Ironmongery Direct now do them. and also Woodfit.

Regarding the top, use some card or hardboard as a template to get the fit right, then you should be able to get the top in by lowering one end in first and letting it pivot down, you may need to angle cut the lower edge so it does not jam on teh diagonals.

J


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## Sagly (11 Jul 2011)

> Regarding the top, use some card or hardboard as a template to get the fit right, then you should be able to get the top in by lowering one end in first and letting it pivot down, you may need to angle cut the lower edge so it does not jam on teh diagonals.



Of course, sounds so obvious!  

Thanks.

I think I might get the oak top made up to match the fire surround. It's a bit beyond my abilities to biscuit it all together. Anyway, I won't get carried away with that until the units are fininshed!


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## Benchwayze (11 Jul 2011)

Sagly, 

You're welcome. 

I shouldn't worry about having too many Kreg type screws! Although, I bought just enough to see me through a few face frames and doors, in the shop. (with a few left over too!) In future though I'll buy something suitable from Screwfix, or a similar outlet, for a lot less cash! 

I don't want to sound as if I am extolling Kreg (or any other P/hole jig come to that ) but there are loads of jobs for them in all kinds of woodworking. It all depends on what you want to make, and what the item is for.

You do need some kind of flat surface though especially for making square frames. You can use the Kreg clamps, but a decent sized 'G' clamp will serve just as well!. 

All the best. 
John


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## BradNaylor (16 Jul 2011)

Sagly":2rxc0hft said:


> I searched for 'alcove' on this forum and found a REALLY useful post by BradNaylor
> 
> ......so useful in fact that I have completely plagiarised it!



Glad to be of help!

Brad


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## Sagly (16 Jul 2011)

Thanks again for all the helpful comments!

Well, the kitchen legs and pocket hole screws turned up on Thursday so I got a bit more done today but not as much as I wanted to do - ho hum.











I've got a few more questions. Can I use these hinges on the doors? http://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/...Hinges/122/Blum_CLIP_on_Cabinet_Hinges/425860
They are inset hinges. The outside edge of my doors are in line with the inside edge of the cabinet sides.

Also, I want oak tops on the alcoves to match the top of the fireplace. Would a local independent timber merchants be my best port of call?


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## Alex (16 Jul 2011)

Ikea do solid oak worktops at good price in short lengths.


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## jasonB (17 Jul 2011)

Those hinges will be fine provided the side strips don't overhang the carcase.

You may not get an ideal match using kitchen worktops, they are usually made up from short narrow staves (strips) and also likely to be european oak which may not match your fire surround, bit hard to see the exact colour/grain in the photos.

Stick a rough location into your profile then people may be able to suggest local suppliers.

J


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## Sagly (17 Jul 2011)

No progress today  

I'm after something as similar as I can get to the fire surround so worktops (although a good suggestion) wouldn't really give me what i'm after.

I'll get in touch with the suppliers of the fire surround and see if they can provide some tops made up. (If anyone's after a fire surround it looks like they've got some specials offers...http://www.oakfiresurrounds.co.uk/)

I'd like to get an idea of what's a reasonable price though. The oak looks pretty pale and has been stained with Danish oil. Incidentally, how often do I need to re-oil it?

Glyn


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## Sagly (28 Aug 2011)

I thought I would put up a picture of my (almost) finished cupboards. Just waiting for the oak tops to arrive. I'm pretty pleased with them although if I was making any more I would get myself a bench saw and router table!


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## billybuntus (28 Aug 2011)

Job well done, looks nice and clean.


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## Chems (28 Aug 2011)

PAR oak is expensive but if you must use it SL Hardwoods do it mail order. Or a local forum member might be able to tell you the best proper timber yards.


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## Sagly (28 Aug 2011)

I've been quoted £350 for both tops made from 43mm thick oak. It would be nice to get 43mm thick PAR boards and join them myself but with oak being so expensive I don't trust myself.


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## Chems (29 Aug 2011)

Thats REALLY expensive. Like unbelivable. I paid that for all the Oak I used to make an entire desk and side unit, with 2 solid tops that were over 3m long by 50mm thick 600mm wide. 

Find a local joiner or timber yard, surely do it cheaper! If you get them PAR and joint them yourself, all you need to do is make sure that you align them well when you clamp them up and they will only need a light sand and maybe a bit of card scraping to get them perfect.

If your going to pay that much for them I'd do them for you cheaper!


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## Benchwayze (29 Aug 2011)

I know oak is going to be more expensive than softwoods, but I have never been particularly horrified at any quote I had for rough sawn oak. What you have been quoted even with the machining, is a bit jaw-dropping. 

Certainly expect to pay more for quarter-sawn oak, but if you find a timber merchant who is tolerant of the needs of smaller buyers, and will let you pick through stock, then buy either a centre board, or boards from close to the heart of the log. You get the same medullary effect as with quarter sawn, and the boards tend to be wider too. 

Pity you don't live closer, as you would be welcome to use my planer-thicknesser for a few 'beer-tokens', meaning you could buy rough sawn. 

Good Luck 

John


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## billybuntus (29 Aug 2011)

£350 for a couple of tops for those units :shock: someones pulling your pisher


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## Sagly (29 Aug 2011)

Once again, i'm glad I came on here! I thought it was expensive but my other option was to buy 2 of these
http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/10123675#/10123675/ at £100 & £150 and they are only made of staves so will always look like i've got kitchen worktops in my lounge!

The tops need to be 1300 x 360 x 43(ish) and 1250 x 360 x 43(ish) so they are quite narrow. 2no. 3m planks at 180mm wide and 43mm thick would be enough. Maybe I _will_ have a go at making them myself? (hammer)


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## No skills (29 Aug 2011)

Go for it! you will get enough good advice from the fine folks here to achive what you need.

One thing though, can you not make thinner oak tops (say 25mm) but with a 43mm thick front lip to get the 'look' of a thicker top. Could save a bit on materials.


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## Benchwayze (29 Aug 2011)

Sagly, 

Get hold of two 12 x 2 pine planks long enough for the job. Practice edge jointing them.

You can have two attempts, by jointing each of the four edges. If you don't get it right, rip afresh and keep on until it comes. 

I find that the width of pieces to be rub jointed does make a slight difference to the feel of making this joint. So, once your practice pieces get less than 8" wide, buy some more 12" wide stock. But I bet you won't need to. I'll stand to be corrected, but I think you'll find it will become easier and it's the only way to learn. 

Joining the oak will be slightly more difficult, so when you move over to the oak, you should aim to have pieces wide enough to allow you more than one try at the joint. 

Go for it. When you have mastered it, don't throw out the pine. It might come in handy! :mrgreen: 

For the lengths of joint you are going to work, I would suggest you need at least Numbers 5 and a half and No. 7 Baileys.
Good Luck
John


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## Chems (29 Aug 2011)

No skills":11brfe9s said:


> One thing though, can you not make thinner oak tops (say 25mm) but with a 43mm thick front lip to get the 'look' of a thicker top. Could save a bit on materials.



This is great advice, save you a ton of money. 

If your buying PAR you shouldn't have to do much to the edge to get it to joint anyway if its been PAR'ed well.


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## Benchwayze (29 Aug 2011)

Agreed. 

You might even get away with just a Jack plane to joint up too. 
John


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## Chems (29 Aug 2011)

Yes I think John is right again, when I mill my own boards I try to get it so that they are perfectly flat along there edge and no gap at all all the way along, but with longer lengths or when I don't have the machinery, I do the spring joint, I just use my No 4.5 and little swipe in the middle.


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## Benchwayze (29 Aug 2011)

Aye, and there's the rub.... :mrgreen: 

Sorry..... Hat, coat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Door! 

John


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## Sagly (30 Aug 2011)

Well, I went and ordered some oak boards today. I got 2no. 3m long 190mm wide PAR boards 43mm thick for £194. I'll go and pick them up on saturday. Given that this is a first attempt, I will keep it all full thickness for simplicity (although it was a bl**dy good idea 'no skills' :wink: )

All that talk of planes may as well have been in French (yup - I really am that green! :? ) so i've had a little look on youtube etc. and now I think I understand what you've been talking about. Looks like I need to get hold of a number 4.5 bailey?

Do I need to biscuit the joints or can I just glue them?


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## MickCheese (30 Aug 2011)

You don't need a biscuit jointer but biscuits or something similar will help you keep the two boards aligned as you glue them up. You will need several clamps though. You can get a slot cutter to use with a router that will cut biscuit slots (That's assuming you have a router).

Mick


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## Sagly (30 Aug 2011)

Yup, I have a router in my arsenal!


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## Chems (30 Aug 2011)

Don't bother with any form of alignment, use some clamps and some waxed cauls to clamp across the faces to keep them straight and in line when you apply pressure to the edges. 

You may not need a plane at all, if they are nicely PAR'ed that may just butt up perfectly as they should if prepared right. But cross cut them to rough length first rather than try and glue up the entire 3m in one go and then crosscut for each side of the alcove. Its easier to get a good join from the clamps on a shorter length. 

You'll need a very good well tuned plane to take nice shavings on oak so dry clamp them up, if you can't see daylight through the joins when you hold them up to the light your all set, if you can then come back and ask for more advice! I'd say rather than plane it if its not 100% straight then a router straight edge jig will give best results for a beginner. All you'll need is a nice straight edge of something about 1.5m long like a MDF board or something.


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## jasonB (31 Aug 2011)

And don't let the bars of your clamps rest against the glue line, you will get black marks on the wood. Also an alternative to waxing the cauls is to put a bit of brown parcel tape on them, risk with wax is it can get into the wood and affect water based finishes.

J


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## Sagly (31 Aug 2011)

While i'm asking hundreds of questions, here's another one.....

I'll also be putting up floating shelves (like the first picture in this thread) and I will pick up some MR MDF when I collect the oak. The question is how should I construct the shelves. They will be mainly for ornaments and a few smaller books but the rear wall is of a floating plasterboard construction in order to provide soundproofing from next door, so I can't drill into it (although I could stick to it?).

I was thinking about screwing 18mm battens to the two side walls of each alcove and making shelves out of a sandwich of 12mm then 18mm then 12mm MR MDF with a notch cut out of the 18mm so that it slides over the battens (similar to some other threads on here)?

Any thoughts?


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## jasonB (31 Aug 2011)

Glueing the rear batten won't be ideal, you could use plasterboard fixings which won't go into the masonary behind so should not affect the sound insulation together with a bead of gripfil. 1.3m is a bit much to just use the two ends for support without a fixed rear batten.

If you cut the middle board say 25mm narrower and 50mm shorter then glue and clamp it into a sandwich thats a lot easier than trying to cut teh groove afterwards. Just make sure the alcove does not get larger towards the back as the shelf won't slip on without a gap but if you are painting then painters mate will take care of reasonable gaps.

j


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## TheTiddles (31 Aug 2011)

Sagly":3jsgtvyk said:


> Yup, I have a router in my arsenal!



ouch, you want to see a doctor about that!

Oh, sorry, miss-read the last word


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## angelboy (5 Sep 2011)

Floating shelf brackets - 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-ADJUSTABLE- ... 33681bfd6a

or these - 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 2335wt_846


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## jasonB (5 Sep 2011)

Both would be useless on the wall construction that Sagly has, they are not that good on a solid wall either.

J


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