# Best way to cut sheet materials



## Keefaz (8 Aug 2006)

Hi, all!!

Because my 'shop' is inside the house I'm trying to keep power tool usage to minimum. However, I often turn to the jigsaw or even circular saw when cutting large sheets of MDF or plywood. Is there a quieter, more elegant solution? I tried using my regular pull-saws on MDF sheets and my accuracy has been WAY out!

Do I just need to improve my technique or is there a special means of cutting large sheets?


----------



## George_N (8 Aug 2006)

I think most would use either a table saw with sliding table or circular saw with a guide rail/cutting board or some other sort of straight edge. Do you really want to spend your days making 8 ft rip cuts in plywood that will never be as accurate as with power tools? Sorry, this isn't mutch help, is it.


----------



## Frank D. (8 Aug 2006)

Hi Keefaz,
I use my Ryoba or Kataha Katebiki on plywood with no problems. On MDF I don't use my Japanese saws. I usually cut these with power saws because there's a lot of junk and glue in MDF that dulls handsaw blades quite quickly. If I have to I use a western style cheapo saw with impulse-hardened teeth and it works OK (I always do finish cuts for MDF on my tablesaw though).


----------



## Keefaz (8 Aug 2006)

George_N":28h05w66 said:


> I think most would use either a table saw with sliding table or circular saw with a guide rail/cutting board or some other sort of straight edge. Do you really want to spend your days making 8 ft rip cuts in plywood that will never be as accurate as with power tools? Sorry, this isn't mutch help, is it.



Well, you're probably right. It just doesn't seem as much fun when I'm making MDF boxes for the missus and I haven't used a single hand tool the entire time. :?


----------



## Mcluma (8 Aug 2006)

That is now where all the people start shouting about mafell and Festool,

as these work with a guide rail and are extremely well equiped for sizing large sheets of material


----------



## Anonymous (8 Aug 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Paul Chapman (8 Aug 2006)

Keefaz":hm4nixm1 said:


> Is there a quieter, more elegant solution?



Not really because man-made boards blunt conventional hand tools so quickly. I usually cut roughly to size with a jigsaw then make the final cuts with a router, fitted with a large square-ish sub-base, and Trend guide-clamp. But that's rather noisy for inside the house  

Paul


----------



## DaveL (8 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":3pzk4bfe said:


> I usually cut roughly to size with a jigsaw then make the final cuts with a router, fitted with a large square-ish sub-base, and Trend guide-clamp. But that's rather noisy for inside the house


And with out a good dust collection system will see you sent to the garden in double quick time. :x


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

i tend to think cutting sheet goods is the one time to be thankful for
power tools. it is difficult to get square items by hand sawing without
the practice, and how do you practice when you want to make boxes.

personally i would either buy a mafell/festo system, or the
thing what colin c and others have from america, and a cheap skill saw.

do a bundle at once, then go back to hand tools.

the very process of manufacturing mdf is liable to provide problems
for normal hand tools, although i have not tried one of those
hard point saws which some of the site workers use, although most
that i know have moved to festo, or mafell.

paul :wink:


----------



## Frank D. (9 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":h4w63gc2 said:


> PS is a pull saw yet another new fly-by-night woodwork fashion which has passed me by?


Jacob, I think Keefaz is referring to Japanese (pull) saws. They've been around for at least a couple hundred years in their present form.
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=13083
I agree about MDF and hand tools, but plywood edges can be planed (or shot) like regular wood with good results. Rebates are trickier though.


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Aug 2006)

> Do I just need to improve my technique or is there a special means of cutting large sheets?



Keefaz

For 4x8 sheets of ply, you can ...

1. Run a straight edge across the section to be cut.
2. Score this deeply with a knife.
3. Chisel out a fence ..
4. Then .... just kidding :lol: 

I have on occasions cut ply with a handsaw. I reserve my handtools for solid wood. Ply and MDF are cut with a circular saw (full sheets) or tablesaw. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Anonymous (9 Aug 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Alf (9 Aug 2006)

I've got good clean cuts in ply using a Japanese saw, but to be honest sheet goods are no fun with hand tools. It's like cutting stopped grooves - it can be done, but it's doing things the hard way IMO. I dig out the circular saw and homemade guides every time. 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## MikeW (9 Aug 2006)

Keefaz":38iaxa2i said:


> ...Do I just need to improve my technique or is there a special means of cutting large sheets?


If I had a sheet to cut and had limited space/equipment, I would buy a couple beers and haul it to someone's place that had power equipment.

If I had a couple sheets, I would take more beer :lol: 

Ok, not really. Well, maybe. But I have cut many a sheet of MDF with western-style handsaws. I just processed a 3/4" thick 4x8 sheet the other day using an 5 1/2 ppi saw. If I need the edge to look respectable, I use an 8 ppi saw. And if I really need the edge very nice, I do knife the lines on the bottom.

The pieces I shot on my shooting board. Call me a masochist, but it went rather quickly. And I saved my beer money...

Take care, Mike


----------



## Anonymous (9 Aug 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## MikeW (9 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":28fevna1 said:


> Another simple way to cut a large sheet - lean it against some longish timbers against a wall at an angle so that there is enough clearance behind for the saw. Prop up the bottom on some scraps so the saw can clear the floor. Then saw down the line with of course a PANEL SAW, what else?
> Trouble is people have too much kit nowadays and end up not seeing the wood for the trees as it were.
> I'll just repeat the words PANEL SAW here as I get the impression that this may not be such a familiar object as it used to be. Any cheap unbacked handsaw with say 8 tpi or more will do. Or less tpi for a thick sheet e.g. 18mm shuttering ply.
> 
> ...


I should have mentioned that I generally cut the sheet goods raised off the floor but vertical. Makes for easy sawing.

What was that you said? Panel saw?







:lol: 

Take care, Mike
who does believe a polished blade cuts better...


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

my concern as usual is that unless you have lots of practice with a
panel saw. getting good straight lines is difficult.

it may well be a quick way to strip the sheet down, but it is not clean
and easy, it takes lots of practice.  

paul :wink:


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

i don't know mike any excuse to promote your wonderful saws :lol: :lol: 

bet jacob doesn't think they are better than normal shed panel saws though.

as usual looks good and with one of those even i might practice cutting straight lines   

do agree about the shine though

paul :wink:


----------



## Anonymous (9 Aug 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## MikeW (9 Aug 2006)

Hi Jacob. Yes, that is a panel saw <g>...

The thing jutting up near the toe is called a nib. No special purpose other than they have been on saws for a long, long time. I think it is a vestigal of an earlier time when saw blades, including the top at the toe had a certain ornamental flair about them.

Ah, Paul, just having a little fun...

As a related side note, Carl Bilderback has an article I think in the next issue of Woodworking Magazine about keeping ones saw plate shiney. My grandfather use to take a sanding block with fine garnet paper and using kerosene as a lubricant, polish the blades of his handsaws once in a while.

In part, it removed any pitch, general dirt and grime--and wax--build-up. But he would use the saw's reflection as a square to mark his cuts. The reflection, when the saw is square to the timber, looks continuous up the saw plate. So he would measure, mark and cut very quickly.

Take care, Mike


----------



## MikeW (9 Aug 2006)

engineer one":1swu5xbb said:


> my concern as usual is that unless you have lots of practice with a panel saw. getting good straight lines is difficult.
> 
> it may well be a quick way to strip the sheet down, but it is not clean
> and easy, it takes lots of practice.
> ...


Ah, the chicken and the egg--which came first?

Without practice, the results may be less than desirable. But without practicing, we never get better...

MDF and even ply are simply not pleasant materials to work with no matter. Which is why I suggested beer...

Take care, Mike


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

yea but how do you cut straight lines in beer :lol: :lol: 

i agree thought that the materials are not pleasant to work with,
but for certain types of items that we need, they offer the most 
effective material to give reasonably large flat surfaces.

and over here, getting reasonable long and cheap lumps on which 
to practice is not easy.

wonder whether the stuff for cleaning up router cutters would be
as or more effective for removing the "gunk", but i do agree that
someone somewhere taught me about using the reflections to try and
cut straight lines.

i am sure i read somewhere that the nib had a purpose, but not sure if
i can remember, someone somewhere must have a book that mentions it.

what you wonder though is where the term "de-nibbing" in relation to 
sanding and finishes comes from :? 

paul :wink:


----------



## Alf (9 Aug 2006)

engineer one":4n5vw3oc said:


> i am sure i read somewhere that the nib had a purpose, but not sure if
> i can remember, someone somewhere must have a book that mentions it.


Paul, do yopurself a massive favour and don't try to find the answer. There are lots and lots of theories but no actual proof either way. "What's the nib for?" is one of those fall back questions to get some traffic going when the Old Tools list gets quiet... :wink:

Now, panel saw. Is that in the 19thC meaning of the term, or the 18th? :-k

Cheers, Alf


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

that works for me alf.

since veneers go back to the egyptians, maybe panel saws do to?

paul :wink:


----------



## Anonymous (9 Aug 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## gidon (9 Aug 2006)

Keefaz
In my opinion, the quickest, quietest solution is to get yourself a cordless circular saw and use it with a straight edge (cheapest straight edge for full size boards is a good factory edge off a sheet of MDF or ply - you can get B&Q to slice you a few off on their panel saw ...).
Cordless saws feel safer to use to - and they are useful for lots of other things too (like chopping those long boards from the timber yard down to fit in the car!) 
Cheers
Gidon


----------



## Alf (9 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":6tw2qzz3 said:


> Alf":6tw2qzz3 said:
> 
> 
> > Now, panel saw. Is that in the 19thC meaning of the term, or the 18th? :-k
> ...


Well the 18thC one in the Seaton Chest is 26" long, which is a bit longer than the usually thought of panel saw.



Mr_Grimsdale":6tw2qzz3 said:


> Oh and what's a Kataha Katebiki? Is it one of those pancakey things with noodles and sea food? Sounds jolly tasty whatever it is.


Jacob, I'm really starting to worry that they're not feeding you enough up there in Derbyshire - first Lea & Perrins and now pancakes and noodles? 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## bugbear (9 Aug 2006)

MikeW":3j902ary said:


> who does believe a polished blade cuts better...



Me too. More rust resistant as well.

BugBear (0000 wire wool with Solvol Autosol)


----------



## Anonymous (9 Aug 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Nick W (9 Aug 2006)

engineer one":dp3uzjed said:


> yea but how do you cut straight lines in beer


It's trivial so long as you cryogenically treat it beforehand. :lol: :lol:


----------



## MikeW (9 Aug 2006)

Now those were some funny responses--and some serious ones...

Paul. Hey, at least I had my glasses on and didn't spell it "bears" this time <g>...

For practice sawing, just use whatever you are using for building with. I'm not one to go buy good wood and hack it apart for practice. Nearly every job involves the making of scrap in the process. Heck, some jobs I have done made a whole bunch. Like the Mahogany Shaker table tops I miscut once...

For small joinery practice, just a bunch of lines, not spaced too closely, works a treat. Larger pieces can be used for larger saws. Scrap ply can be used for practicing longer cuts using either a cross cut or a rip handsaw...but a cross cut cuts cleaner. But the excercise is following a line, not the finish.

Alf's got it. Beginning in the early 19th century and going back quite some time, saws designated as panel saws were up to 26" in length. The Kenyon "pannel" saws in the Seaton chest are both 26" in length. Properly speaking, a handsaw is a cross cut. The other long, non-backed saw in the Seaton chest is a half-rip. From what I can find in literature, this is not a designation for the style of teeth, but rather the number of teeth. But I digress...

Disston made mention the nib serves no useful purpose but is merely decoration to break the straight line of the back. He must have been clairvoyant, though, because they existed in the present form, in about the same position, for over 100 years before the firm Disston began.

But if they served any purpose other than decoration, I'm afraid the reason is lost. But Paul, if you ever do read an original text which has a different opinion, publish the finding!

Well, got to go to work...Take care, Mike


----------



## Alf (9 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3w34q9ud said:


> My "Sanderson & Kayser - The BRITISH Saw" (it says on the side you can just make it out under the rust) panel saw is 22" long compared to 26" for my crosscut of same name.


Which is why it mattered which meaning of panel saw you meant. :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

well, nick with all this concern about producing "cold" beers
these days i guess it is only one step along to the cryogenics.

mike as usual we seem to have a complimentary sense of humour.

as for the nib, i wonder whether it was originally designed to strengthen
the front, and stop it wobbling a bit, could be completely off as usual, but 
its another thought  

as for practice i understand that you always get scraps from the jobs you do, but what about the first job??????

i guess that is why i use power saws in the first instance and then
hope for more help from things like handplanes to get me through to the end, think i must go back to improving my skills and producing work :twisted: :? 

i wonder whether about 26inches is the longest you can make a 
saw that does not have a back, and would be controllable in terms of
weight, and flex, when you use a reasonable thin piece of steel to make
the saw.

anyway now colin c has sharpened my TOGA, i learn to use it.  

i think for many of us the problem is the surface we use to cut on,
so i guess it is the best excuse for building the more proper work bench.

paul :wink:


----------



## MikeW (9 Aug 2006)

Hi Paul, the catalogs show Disston, those before him and during his time made saws regularly up to 30" in length. My S&J rip is just over 28". I have a Geo. Bishop cross cut that is 30". The one I use the most is also a Geo. Bishop 28" cross cut.

As for weight, the Kenyon "pannel" saw at the link below is considerably heavier than a comparable mid-19th century saw of the same physical size. The weight is very beneficial.

Schwarz's blog

I have been asked to make some saws for a person in Norway. These will be even heavier saws for use in timber framing. But the really fun part of the order is the 5' long pit saw...

Take care, Mike


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

come on mike you no playing fair  , 

just when you have blown us away with a decent saw, you do it again 
with something else.

just when i had gotten used to the basic feel of a the 12inchblade backed
saw, i wonder how much a really long would feel. i have never used a 
panel saw, so i guess i was comparing it to the modern kind of rip saw
you buy in a shed, and the whipping that does.

to know that years ago people made them over 30 inches long
is mind blowing. 

now where did i put that tuit box with the money for a hand made
saw  :? 

will be really interested in the norwegian saws, are they for cutting up
polar bears??? :lol: :lol:  

i have in the past used a long saw for cutting some stone, and 
there is an old slate building in North Wales called Jerusalem
which was a slate dressing factory, the saw pit is sooooooo deep 
you wonder whether the guys ever got fed down there.

so now i have sorted so off cuts of 2x and will start practising the 
straight cuts, then move on.

by the by how come you have been up for 24 hours???? :twisted: 

good luck to the bear, did you give him back his pizza? :? 

paul :wink:


----------



## MikeW (9 Aug 2006)

engineer one":2zfm55m3 said:


> come on mike you no playing fair  ,
> 
> just when you have blown us away with a decent saw, you do it again
> with something else.
> ...


12 inches?
Chris' blog again...
:lol: 


> by the by how come you have been up for 24 hours???? :twisted:
> 
> good luck to the bear, did you give him back his pizza? :?


I slept for a couple hours. Now it is the never ending ordering of supplies. And then the shop. And then paperwork tonight. And then...

No way. Pizza is not good bear food. Makes them want to move in, live on the couch. Pretty soon, they think they are Yogi...

Did I ever mention I once shot a grizzly that was almost 8' long at about 20 feet from me? At a full run when I shot...I wouldn't give him our pizza either :wink: 

Ever enjoyable. But I gotta go beat some brass for a few of those things at the linky.

Take care, Mike


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

brings a whole new meaning to a take away pizza i guess.

as you know to fill time tv companies have animal programmes
showing the strange things that beasts other than us do, and 
what the bears do is really strange at time. 

love it when they roll around in the waste bins.

you really know how to dampen my spirits though a 19inch back saw :? 

what does chris schwarz have that i don't :twisted: :twisted: 
anyone would think he had a magazine to publish
 
paul :wink:


----------



## Alf (9 Aug 2006)

MikeW":2t9nfkqg said:


> Pretty soon, they think they are Yogi...


Sitting under a tree and dispensing mystical wisdom? :-k

Cheers, Alf

Sillier than the average bear :wink:


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

not that yogi alf, this was better than the average bear  ccasion5: 

however you do wonder whether you could learn more
effectively from a bear than a yogi :twisted: :twisted: 

paul :wink:


----------



## Paul Kierstead (9 Aug 2006)

MikeW":2minatfy said:


> Did I ever mention I once shot a grizzly that was almost 8' long at about 20 feet from me? At a full run when I shot...I wouldn't give him our pizza either :wink:


 
Holy rubbish!!! Or it would be in my shorts. Was it in a full run *at you*? If so, its a wonder that by sheer momentum it didn't end up on top of ya... (ok, sorry bit of physics there, but still...) 

I do quite like grizzly and generally have no fear (respect in heaps, but not fear) of bears except the polar bear who have no fear of me, nay just curiosity, so them I fear of. But I will admit grizzlies seem just difficult and ornery enough to worry me and get even a little more respect then most.

PS: You had better be prepared to make more of those big-assed tenon saws. And have some walnut left.


----------



## Alf (9 Aug 2006)

<i>Smarter</i> than the average bear?

Cheers, Alf

Who can do a not bad Yogi impression - "Boo-boo, bring that pic-a-nic basket. Boo-boo, bring that oversized tenon saw..."


----------



## engineer one (9 Aug 2006)

now we are coming back to where mike and i started
better than your average beer :lol: :lol: 

paul :wink:


----------



## MikeW (9 Aug 2006)

Paul Kierstead":7ojyd8w0 said:


> MikeW":7ojyd8w0 said:
> 
> 
> > Did I ever mention I once shot a grizzly that was almost 8' long at about 20 feet from me? At a full run when I shot...I wouldn't give him our pizza either :wink:
> ...


The was getting towards dusk and it was down hill from me at about 50 yards when I first saw it--and it smelled me. I was standing on an old logging road just above our cabin. By the time I realized it was at a dead run and I pulled out the pistol [yep, pistol] it had halved the distance. The first shot dropped it. After I got done patting myself on the back, I stepped down off the road and took a half dozen steps when it shot back up, and again, was at a dead run. The second shot didn't seem to have an effect. It turned less than 10 feet from me and kept going.

The next morning I needed to go find it as I knew it was wounded badly. When I found it, it was still breathing. Later that day when I was dressing it out, I realized my first shot with the .44 mag went through the chest where the neck joins, took a piece of the heart, exited the stomach and broke the right rear leg. The second shot entered the chest and was later found.

I understand that for the short term, they can run 30 mph or so. While I may have done various, er, substances in my youth, I was never as high as at the moment it turned away so close. I would have been dead.

On topic content? I used handsaws and a hatchet to build a tepee-type affair to hoist the pipper up.

Back to worky...Mike


----------



## engineer one (10 Aug 2006)

now you really are showing off, hyped up, and using green wood techniques just so you could tow an old grizzly to the showroom :lol: :twisted: 

so what's this plausible deniability, may have used???????

paul :wink:


----------



## Alf (10 Aug 2006)

Crikey, Mike. :shock: 

At a loss for words*, Alf

* Yeah, yeah, I heard that "'bout time" at the back - very humorous :lol:


----------



## Anonymous (10 Aug 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## MikeW (10 Aug 2006)

As exciting as the bear incident was, one of the high points living at the cabin was working deep in the woods. One memory impressed upon my mind was when I had removed a lady's roof in the middle of summer. It had been a warm day, but as evening crept up, the light breeze was refreshing. I had just finished hand-cutting the last of a dormer's rafters, installing as I went.

I had paused and reflected on the beauty of the scene around me. Gosh it was going to be a pretty sunset, I thought. The sea of tree tops swayed in the breeze as I looked down into the valley from this home perched on a hilltop.

That's when I noticed I had miscut a rafter and nailed it in place. Removing it proved difficult. I was about to cut it free with the saw which miscut it to begin with when I decided to lean out and around the gable-end and beat it free, one leg wrapped around the corner post.

When I awoke, I vaguely remembered seeing the 32-oz hammer as it glanced off the offending rafter and met my forehead. It was 18 feet to the downhill side of that home...

Have I mentioned the only wood working tools I have been hurt by are hand tools :lol: 

Take care, Mike
who may get some sleep tonight...


----------



## Shady (10 Aug 2006)

> The first shot dropped it. After I got done patting myself on the back, I stepped down off the road and took a half dozen steps when it shot back up, and again, was at a dead run.



The old rules are the best Mike - you were very lucky indeed... I'm thinking of the one that says 'never assume that dangerous game is dead until you have made sure'... :wink: Bears in particular are meant to be all but indestructible... Lucky man - I bet you sat down and trembled for a while...


----------



## Mirboo (10 Aug 2006)

MikeW":1jbp62ec said:


> Did I ever mention I once shot a grizzly that was almost 8' long at about 20 feet from me? At a full run when I shot...I wouldn't give him our pizza either :wink:





MikeW":1jbp62ec said:


> I used handsaws and a hatchet to build a tepee-type affair to hoist the pipper up.



Hey Mike,

When are we going to see the "Bear Hunter" line of handsaws. You could have an etch of a big grizzly on the blade. 

No bears over here fortunately. Just snakes, crocs, funnel web spiders, irukandji jellyfish......!!!


----------



## MikeW (11 Aug 2006)

Mirboo":3mjto2l1 said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> When are we going to see the "Bear Hunter" line of handsaws. You could have an etch of a big grizzly on the blade.


Hi Ian--you may not see a Bear Hunter line...though I have been asked about etching a Beaver on the toe of a half-back. In fact, there are 4 people wanting one...

Speaking of which, my etching equipment arrived today. Alf... :lol: 

But we'll see how good it does over the weekend.


> No bears over here fortunately. Just snakes, crocs, funnel web spiders, irukandji jellyfish......!!!


Yes, well, my local monsters are comfortable in that they are familiar to me.

Those jellyfish...nah. Keep 'em. At least I can see or smell bears...







Not even an inch across...


----------



## Mirboo (11 Aug 2006)

MikeW":70rkuzsa said:


> Hi Ian--you may not see a Bear Hunter line...though I have been asked about etching a Beaver on the toe of a half-back. In fact, there are 4 people wanting one...



What is the significance of the Beaver? Are the 4 people dam builders or something?


----------



## Alf (11 Aug 2006)

MikeW":gczg2e18 said:


> Speaking of which, my etching equipment arrived today. Alf... :lol:


Uh oh. Where'd that piggy bank go...?

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Paul Kierstead (11 Aug 2006)

MikeW":8nylqjmt said:


> ...though I have been asked about etching a Beaver on the toe of a half-back. In fact, there are 4 people wanting one...



:shock: 8-[


----------



## MikeW (11 Aug 2006)

Hi Ian and Paul--the Beaver etch started out as a joke by a guy on another forum.

But then over the next day or so, the thought kept coming back to him. So he started playing around with drawing one on the end of the saw and posted it.

A few other people saw it and were interested as well. Enough so I still get inquiries...

Take care, Mike


----------



## engineer one (11 Aug 2006)

i don't know no sooner have we got the bears on our mind again,
pizza eating or not and now we are asked to understand beaver trimming.

and i thought this was a woodworking forum. must check the definition
of woodworking sometime. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

diverting slightly back to topic. practical woodworking has an article
by ralph laughton about cutting sheet materials in the september 2006
issue. good for details of a cutting frame. also a decent article about
building a stud wall.

see ralph like me uses a dewalt 744. :twisted: 

paul :wink:


----------

