# SPIERS AYR infill plane



## adidat (25 Apr 2012)

well i can now see what jim is banging (hammer) on about, the moment i opened the box i was in love, while browsing a popular auction site i came across a very poor listing for a 'woodworking plane'. i had my suspicions but i risked it and bought it for a very nice price. i was praying it was going to be crack free, and it arrived







now im aware of the missing lever cap screw and some pitting. but this plane is frigging perfect the rosewood infills are tight fitting.











the sole is pretty flat. and look how tight that mouth is :shock: the gap is less than 0.5mm






as far as im aware these are the original ward iron and chip breaker, they both have an 11 on there backs. amazingly the bevel has not been sharpened grimsdale style. and the mushrooming at the top of the blade is minimal.






nice stamping on the lever cap






i love it!!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

now some questions for the good folk of ukw.

Q: is the lever cap gun metal?

Q: what is the lever cap thread?

Q: age?

Q: is the body dovetailed?

Q: should the lever cap screw look like this (plane) or this (fancy)

thanks

adidat


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## TheTiddles (25 Apr 2012)

Get the sandpaper out and it might clean up ok!

Aidan


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## toolsntat (25 Apr 2012)

Nice "steal" that :roll: =D>
Hope you had the type 1 or 2 compass plane to keep the postage down at the same time :wink:  

Andy


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## adidat (25 Apr 2012)

i wanted it but i was at work or something, so i didnt bother as that one was listed properly i thought it would go for £80 or something, not £35 :roll: 

havent you got any answers for me andy?

adidat


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## jimi43 (25 Apr 2012)

Good LORD! You paid £35 for that! You was done! :mrgreen: :wink: 

I'll take it off your hands to save you the embarrassment! 8) 

Interesting that it has the Spiers name on the gunmetal lever cap...as it is very similar to mine...






Mine is cast not dovetails but I'm willing to bet that yours is dovetailed....being a genuine Spiers an' all.

Spiers planes are fast taking over in popularity from Norris on FleaBay I notice...especially the old ones. 

A panel plane like yours is likely to fetch in the region of £200 if in good condition which yours will be.....

The iron is exactly the same as one that Douglas has on his newly acquired toy..(he can post about that) and the plane he has dates between 1834 and 1851 and it would appear to have an original WARD iron. I would date yours from the mid to end of the 19C

The lever cap is just as it should be ....simply SPIERS AYR like my smoother:






Though yours is clearer and the right way up!

The lever cap thread on these vary greatly...it can be a square (ACME style ) thread which is made on a lathe or with a special die...or it could be 7/16th 14tpi (I think)....

A truly lovely find my friend and for that price...what can I say...you stole it indeed!

There is one exactly the same HERE (4th one down) for $895!!!!!!!!!

_



BM120367 Spies, Ayr An early style Spiers 13 1/2" panel plane with the screwed sides and the fancy hold down screw with a thin shank, but having Acme threads. The wood is pretty much as found. there is an old chip in the spur that has been glued back in place. It is not replaced wood, it is the original piece glued back. The sides and sole have been cleaned. The cap iron is numbered to the plane and the iron is a replacement. It is a tapered iron by Mathieson. The original iron would also have been tapered at this time, and would have been by Ward to match the cap iron. This is respectable example of an earlier Spiers panel plane and would make a good user or collector's piece. G+ $895

Click to expand...

_
And they are saying that the original iron was WARD and tapered....at this time which I did not know...you learn something new every day!

=D> =D> =D> 

Now....get that bad boy shavin'!!! 8) 

Jim


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## Richard T (26 Apr 2012)

Yup, a prime candidate for dovetailed I should think. 

Re the lever cap thread, if you take an impression on the inside with plasticine - maybe rolled up and stuck to some thin dowel - I bet it's either square thread or acme and you'll need to get the bolt cut on a screw cutting lathe. 

Very good buy! :mrgreen:


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## bugbear (26 Apr 2012)

Richard T":3om4cmgk said:


> Yup, a prime candidate for dovetailed I should think.
> 
> Re the lever cap thread, if you take an impression on the inside with plasticine - maybe rolled up and stuck to some thin dowel - I bet it's either square thread or acme and you'll need to get the bolt cut on a screw cutting lathe.



You could turn a dowel (with a taper) such that it can be screwed in; made in a close grained not-too-hard wood (one of the cheap mahoganies?), this takes a very clear impression.

BugBear


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## adidat (26 Apr 2012)

Ex ellent ideas richard and bugbear. And thanks for the information jim
,


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## MickCheese (26 Apr 2012)

A fantastic find for what appears to be a very good price.

Looking forward to seeing how it performs and what is needed to make it a stunner.

Well done, I am sure you will be very satisfied with your purchase.

Mick


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## Racers (26 Apr 2012)

Cracking plane and a cracking price.

Pete


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## Corneel (26 Apr 2012)

Yes, that's a stunning plane. Gorgeous. It's a pitty they never were much imported overhere in The netherlands, so the chance of finding one on a bootfair is remote.


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## dickm (26 Apr 2012)

If it's any help, I can put a thread gauge onto the screw of my Spiers coffin smoother; it will probably be the same?

As a matter of interest, how should you go about checking whether an infill is a very good dovetail (in that the dovetails aren't visible) body or a cast one?


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## Beachcricket (26 Apr 2012)

Great find, great plane, great price. What's not to love.

Hopefully the weather will be gentle over the next few days, I'm eyeing up a trip to a local car boot sale this weekend.


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## dickm (26 Apr 2012)

... Had a spare minute, so checked mine. The bolt is exactly 1/2" OD, and 14 tpi. That's 7/16" Whitworth pitch, but wrong diameter, and Zeuss doesn't show anything standard to that spec. Also, the thread form is not Whitworth; the crests of the threads are rounded, not acute. 

Replacement looks like a metalworking lathe job.


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## adidat (26 Apr 2012)

i really am made up with this plane, cant wait to use, need to invest in some corrodip and get that blade shining.


in reference to the leaver cap screw



dickm":3nym3mrh said:


> ... Had a spare minute, so checked mine. The bolt is exactly 1/2" OD, and 14 tpi. That's 7/16" Whitworth pitch, but wrong diameter, and Zeuss doesn't show anything standard to that spec. Also, the thread form is not Whitworth; the crests of the threads are rounded, not acute.
> 
> Replacement looks like a metalworking lathe job.



:? :? 

will have to ask grandad what he thinks. 

my idea is to stick a lump of brass for the head, on a thinner piece for the thread.

so i went round some engineering firms one old boy reckoned there was no difference between brass and gunmetal is this true?











so i have got the idea of the thread cutting and the general shaping, but how on earth do i do that pesky knurling?

also anyone got any ideas of the approximate diameter and thickness of that lump, if anyone has one could they photograph it and take some measurements?

whats the other end look like and angled steel lump? whats the angle?

questions questions so many questions

thanks

adidat


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## dickm (26 Apr 2012)

Leave it with me for 24 hours, and I'll take some pics of mine.

Would offer to make a screw up for you, as I've got plenty of lumps of relevant sized brass but my workmanship probably wouldn't do the plane justice. Knurling is very simple once you've got the hang of it, but I've still to master the art


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## Cheshirechappie (26 Apr 2012)

Brass and gunmetal are different. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, gunmetal is a form of bronze - an alloy af copper and tin, with a bit of zinc mixed in. There are several grades of both alloys readily available, one source being Folkestone Engineering Supplies, another being The College Engineering Supply. The usual grade of brass for machined items these days is CZ121, sometimes called 'screw brass', more usually 'free-machining brass' - it's got a bit of lead in it to help it machine better. The gunmetal is not quite so common; SAE660 is a grade that seems to be used for machined components, and from experience it machines very nicely.


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## adidat (26 Apr 2012)

dickm":3j0g886m said:


> Leave it with me for 24 hours, and I'll take some pics of mine.
> 
> Would offer to make a screw up for you, as I've got plenty of lumps of relevant sized brass but my workmanship probably wouldn't do the plane justice. Knurling is very simple once you've got the hang of it, but I've still to master the art



is yours identical, very kind offer thanks

thanks for the info CChappie there some on ebay but its only inch thick it looks more like 1 1/4"

adidat


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## Richard T (26 Apr 2012)

This is a place I've heard good things about in Brum and will be getting my bronze from. 

http://www.johnkeatleymetals.com/PB102%20rod.html

Mind you, there are a lot of metal mungers in Brum ...


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## adidat (26 Apr 2012)

thanks for that

i bet 4 1/2" is spensive!

adidat


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## jimi43 (26 Apr 2012)

As is normal around here DEREK COHEN of this very parish is your friend...and has some wonderful ideas on that blog.

I made mine out of a piece of thread I found on something in my "junk" pile and drilled out and turned down an old plumb bob as the brass source:







Then I just put a groove in it to tart it up a bit...






I haven't tried knurling yet...but I've kind of got used to this little "bob knob" as I call it!

....and after all...mine was missing so many bits...but it seems to work ok with a QS iron...






You don't have that problem...with the superb WARD steel...wait till you hone that baby up! :shock: 

For your one...I would tend to go a bit further and try to get an original or have one made similar to the original...I'm sure someone on here is more than capable of making one for you close to the original that you would never tell.

Did you clean up the sides a bit yet? Don't go crazy with the polishing...the natural patina of the plane might be lost. The sole however can be lapped without any problems...you could see if it is dovetailed from the bottom too.

I am still amazed that you got it so cheap but I am made up for you my friend as I know you have been itching for one of these beauties for simply ages. I do hope it lives up to your expectations...I'm sure it will.

Watch out though...this can be a very expensive slope but if you are prepared to wait...bargains are out there. :wink: 

Jim


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## jimi43 (26 Apr 2012)

Actually Chris...looking more closely at your iron picture...I can just make out the "P" of Henry Payne so your iron (if original...which I'm pretty sure it is)...would date post 1843...



> Ward & Payne, of Sheffield.
> David Ward and Henry Payne formed this partnership about 1843, and
> were sawmakers, edge tool makers (including turning tools and
> carving tools), joiners' tool makers, etc.



An early Spiers but mid to late 19C as I first thought.

Jim


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## jimi43 (26 Apr 2012)

Also I dug up this picture of the "Norris" style ACME type (though not true ACME) thread....






I'm willing to bet that your thread is NOT this type...but the finer one as on my Scottish panel.

Jim


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## adidat (27 Apr 2012)

ok jim went and cleaned the stamps up with my garyflex block. underneath all that grime there are some nice stamps.

blade





chip breaker





and the numbers on the back of the blade





so it looks like a W and P and the two hammers over an anvil.

look at that edge, not a curve in sight 





clearly j.smith (maybe jim :duno cared for his plane





also just found out that photobucket rotates images automatically  

cant find any blue tack at the moment to do an exploration mission to discover the thread.

adidat


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## Richard T (27 Apr 2012)

This is very interesting Jim - so it seems that truly square thread is a Norris thing; now I come to think of it, the thread on Mr. Arnold's Norris is the squarest I've ever seen. Really looks the part as heavy, Victorian, English engineering. 

Spiers, however, has that lighter touch. Scotch mist and all that. From what I've seen it resembles the profile in very early Record clamps. A rounded profile on top. Whereas Acme is "off square" - flat top and gully bottoms but with walls of an obtuse angle. I've read that the primary use of acme is in lathe lead screws - it's off squareness to ease the dropping in of the half nut every time it is engaged for each pass. 
Now I think about it I don't think I've ever seen acme used in any other application other that that that needs to have a half nut dropped in; lead screws, quick release vices ...


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## dickm (27 Apr 2012)

As will be obvious from the pics, my Spiers is a user, not a collector. And it has a Sorby iron, not a Ward, which may tell something about its age. The clamp screw is a pretty basic design, with the rounded-top thread.


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## adidat (27 Apr 2012)

dick is it possible for some measurements of the screw? also what is the end like?

adidat


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## Richard T (27 Apr 2012)

Dick wrote: " my Spiers is a user, not a collector"

It's still just as gorgeous though. A plane that ain't used is pretty much er, useless.


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## dickm (27 Apr 2012)

Richard T":242lvewd said:


> Dick wrote: " my Spiers is a user, not a collector"
> 
> It's still just as gorgeous though. A plane that ain't used is pretty much er, useless.



My feelings exactly, and it does a really nice job. Well worth the tenner paid for it, IMHO


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## dickm (27 Apr 2012)

adidat":35x9l7s9 said:


> dick is it possible for some measurements of the screw? also what is the end like?
> 
> adidat


PM sent.


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## adidat (27 Apr 2012)

jimi43":1vf5w460 said:


> And they are saying that the original iron was WARD and tapered....at this time which I did not know...you learn something new every day!
> 
> =D> =D> =D>
> 
> ...



jim, i just measured the blade thickness the sharp end is about 4.1mm and that thickness carries on to the bottom of the slot give or take .05mm. near the stamped 11 its 3.4mm and near the top its about 4mm.

so i assume that this is a parallel iron? :duno:

whats this mean?

also as far as i can tell that this is one piece of metal instead of 2 like most other woodies and older planes. it really is a nice iron under the chip breaker its perfectly clean, cant wait to get it cleaned up.

also can i say a massive thanks to Dickm who behind the scenes is providing me with excellent info.

adidat


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## Richard T (27 Apr 2012)

I think this means it's parallel where it matters - not strictly parallel all the way up but makes no difference when comes to use. The mouth gap will never get wider with sharpening as the business end is parallel.

I have a few of these (2") ; a Ward, Nurse a Marples and an Ibbotson and they are all destined for smoothers.


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## jimi43 (28 Apr 2012)

This is most interesting...

As a user and not necessarily a professor of infillnology....I was of the understanding that the chant "taper - woodie"....."infill - parallel" was the only one to be heard in the toolshop. :mrgreen: 

It was difficult enough to conceive a standard tapered iron in an infill....and now you're trying to tell me there is a kind of "taperell" iron!

Scratches head and goes back to bed........ #-o 

Jim


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## Richard T (28 Apr 2012)

It's either taperlell or parpered ... I think taperlell's the safest. 

When I can find my camera I'll take some photos of a slim Nurse. :shock:


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## adidat (28 Apr 2012)

:? :? :-k :-k :duno:

Surely its parallel but due to early manufacturing processes its a bit slim in the middle, maybe it was a Friday afternoon job?

but i know one thing fro sure your confusing me

adidat


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## Richard T (28 Apr 2012)

Sorry for the confusion - this is how my Nurse is:

Parallel from here to here - (if a little blurry ... dammit) 






- and tapered from here to here as usual.






It's probably just a happy accident, I don't suppose for a moment it was designed for an infill but it will certainly do. 

Maybe its age has something to do with it - not that I know anything about the dates of Nurse marks but this looks old to me






I'm sure the other Nurse marks I have seen are C. Nurse or Charles Nurse ...


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## jimi43 (28 Apr 2012)

adidat":1tpg2gs3 said:


> :? :? :-k :-k :duno:
> 
> Surely its parallel but due to early manufacturing processes its a bit slim in the middle, maybe it was a Friday afternoon job?
> 
> ...



Hi Chris

In the early days of infill planes, the woodie type of iron fixing and setting was used...a wedge:

This relies on a wedge shaped piece of wood acting against a tapered iron which locks the latter in place.

The downside of this is that as you grind the leading edge of the iron...the thickness reduced, and the mouth opened up as the iron edge moved back from the front of the mouth.

The transition to a lever cap meant that the locking of the iron relied not on wedge interlock but rather two contact points...the front of the lever cap and the screw point. Therefore a parallel iron could be used.

The two iron types compared:






The top is the tapered iron found in wedge systems...the bottom a parallel.

The profile nearer the edge is more pronounced:






I don't see the need for an iron which has a parallel section under the lever cap followed by a tapered front.....and I would dearly love to see one and find out why they existed....some transitional plane?

Does this help?

Jim


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## jimi43 (28 Apr 2012)

AH!!! Richard!

The parallel post (or was it a tapered post)!!!!! :mrgreen: 

That explains it!

Dozy sleepy me!

The parallel leading edge with the tapered rear is obviously for wedged infills (and presumably woodies)...to get over the above-mentioned problem with tapered irons...the grinding/mouth opening problem.

With a taper/parallel configuration the wedge still works but the parallel front means that you can grind and still have the same mouth opening!

Wonderful! :idea: 

(there now follows a series of posts from others saying...didn't you know about the taperels Jim?!!!)

Thank you Richard! A picture is worth a thousand words! =D> 

Jim


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## toolsntat (29 Apr 2012)

adidat":2gld8h91 said:


> i wanted it but i was at work or something, so i didnt bother as that one was listed properly i thought it would go for £80 or something, not £35 :roll:
> 
> havent you got any answers for me andy?
> 
> adidat



Dare say the other bidder would have gone more for it but who knows? It always wrankles me when I watch summat and miss the ending with it selling for next to nowt :roll: 

Looking at your pics I would guess that the owner could have (not long after having it) took the screw out when sharpening it or summat and dropped it in the "black hole" which is the workshop floor :twisted: :roll: 



Richard T":2gld8h91 said:


> Maybe its age has something to do with it - not that I know anything about the dates of Nurse marks but this looks old to me
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have a closer look at the trade mark above the Nurse Richard and I think there is a good chance it is a little tubby John Bull who was used by Hearnshaw Brothers . Probably not made by Nurse but stamped for them in production. 
Dates for C.Nurse&Co 1887-1937
Hearnshaw 1881-1961>

Andy


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## Richard T (29 Apr 2012)

Aha. Thanks for that Andy. Must get me some corodip.


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## bugbear (30 Apr 2012)

jimi43":nhko7wmd said:


> The transition to a lever cap meant that the locking of the iron relied not on wedge interlock but rather two contact points...the front of the lever cap and the screw point. Therefore a parallel iron could be used.



Whilst the screw point might be a point contact (nearly) the front edge of the lever cap is most definitely a line contact.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (30 Apr 2012)

bugbear":15i8xww0 said:


> jimi43":15i8xww0 said:
> 
> 
> > The transition to a lever cap meant that the locking of the iron relied not on wedge interlock but rather two contact points...the front of the lever cap and the screw point. Therefore a parallel iron could be used.
> ...



My dear friend...I meant "point" to be read as "place" rather than the other meaning of "sharp bit". :wink: 

But then you knew that.... :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## bugbear (30 Apr 2012)

jimi43":3sqxg3ff said:


> bugbear":3sqxg3ff said:
> 
> 
> > jimi43":3sqxg3ff said:
> ...



I assumed we were talking geometry, and whilst the number of contacts is important, so is their type.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (30 Apr 2012)

I shall leave this point to you then kind sir...to explain in geometrical terms...

I would prefer to describe it as either a bit of cheese shaped wood wedged into a hole against a wedge shaped bit of iron to hold it in place versus a flat bit of steel being held in by a cap with a screw in it....

But that's just me...simpleton that I am. :wink: 

Jim

Jim


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## Richard T (30 Apr 2012)

BB wrote: "the front edge of the lever cap is most definitely a line contact."

We hope  And a very straight one at that. 

The other point (point of contact) that is the end of the cap bolt is something that has been bothering me. Karl H goes to the trouble of inserting two round metal bars into the front angle of the wood infill for the underside of the iron to rest on at that point (place) of pressure. 
This concern about firm, accurate seating was worrying me until I noticed that on a lot of old infills, including Chris's, that the point (place) at which the bolt presses is past the wood and the iron is not supported there at all. Doesn't seem to make much difference with irons on this sort of thickness.


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## adidat (14 May 2012)

an update

someone very kindly sent me a lever cap screw,







so the plane is now complete, let the cleaning begin. whilst cleaning the blade i actually discovered that the blades is made of 2 different metals but it has been joined so well its hard to tell from the face






but on the edge its clear 




.

i also noticed on the inside the cap lever there was an 11 matching the 11 on the blade and chip breaker

adidat


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## jimi43 (14 May 2012)

Laminated irons are my favourite...particularly the really old ones...though I am at present restoring a rather nice Japanese lump...with very fine hard laminated steel....(more on that later!)

Your panel plane has come out even better than I thought...you have done a wonderful job on that Chris and I am sure that you will find it a keeper...and heirloom to pass on to your grandkids.

Only the other day..after I fettled the Anchor...I tested the two side by side...the Anchor is just a tad longer but way lighter.

The panel plane knocked spots off it...totally different animal.

Enjoy...I'm sure you will...what a bargain you got there! =D> 

Jim


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## Richard T (15 May 2012)

Fantastic! 

Have you had a go with it yet? We need action shots (hammer)


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## bugbear (15 May 2012)

adidat":33uzf89k said:


> but on the edge its clear
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It will become very clear indeed when you work the bevel with a coarse stone. The scratches made will vary A LOT between the two metals.

I suspect this is part of the reason that people perceive hard steels as taking better edges - any given abrasive generate shallower scratches i.e. acts like a finer abrasive.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (17 May 2012)

Ok Chris...you've had it long enough! Shavings!!!?

Jim


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## adidat (17 May 2012)

arrrr, shavings, now i have had a little play and whilst im am getting some small shavings the mouth seems to be getting blocked? its just two tight?? :duno:


any ideas?


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## jimi43 (17 May 2012)

adidat":3tu2u4wg said:


> arrrr, shavings, now i have had a little play and whilst im am getting some small shavings the mouth seems to be getting blocked? its just two tight?? :duno:
> 
> 
> any ideas?



Yes...it did look a bit tight on your original mouth shot. I would try moving the cap iron a bit further back...maybe a 1/4" first to see if that is what is blocking it. I get a shaving which is only a few thou at worst...so any mouth opening larger than that will allow it to pass. It's so thin and flexible that the "chipbreaker" is hardly necessary...certainly as close as those suggesting on recent threads.






This is one area where you really have to have the plane in your hands to diagnose the issue properly but I can always stick another iron set in the post for you to borrow for a couple of days to try out or might I suggest you invest a score on a QS iron...






......you will not believe how well they work in these panel infills and you can keep the old one in case you sell it on or for a time when you can diagnose the problem

Cheers

Jim


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## adidat (17 May 2012)

just put my no.7 iron (hock) in and the mouth is much better, a real shame in my opinion as the original iron looks so good in place.

adidat


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## jimi43 (18 May 2012)

adidat":33g4xt44 said:


> just put my no.7 iron (hock) in and the mouth is much better, a real shame in my opinion as the original iron looks so good in place.
> 
> adidat



Did you try backing off the cap iron?

I did a test with my Spiers smoother and a "too thick" iron...it choked with the cap iron at a smidgen away...but when I backed it off to about 1/4" it worked beautifully...and these irons are more than happy working like this.

Jim


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## AndyT (18 May 2012)

Anyone got a matching jointer?

This one just sold on eBay:









*£1510 plus p&p!*


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## jimi43 (18 May 2012)

What a beauty Andy!

The Spiers planes are fast gaining the reputation of the Norris ones...and rightly so. 

Interesting...the lever cap knob is the same as on my little smoother...






...and the lever cap itself has that very thin almost anorexic neck...






The later they got the more the chunkier they became.

Yet another indication of make and age.

So you weren't tempted then Andy?

Jim


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## DrBob (15 Aug 2014)

I'm coming very late to this thread, which is the only one I can find regarding the Spiers screw thread. I'm a hobby machinist, and was recently asked to make a new cap screw for a friend's Spiers plane. The screw was badly bent, but the knurled knob was OK. The geometry specifics of the male thread are as follows. Threads per inch = 14. Outer diameter = 12.25 mm (0.48"), inner diameter = 10.1 mm (0.40") thread depth 1.08 mm (0.042"). Unlike a Acme thread, which has an included angle of 29º, the Spiers is more nearly a square thread: the included angle is 18º. To cut the thread on a lathe, I made a cutting tool with side faces sloping in by 9º on each side, meeting at a squared-off tip 0.9 mm (0.035") wide. I cut the knob off the old screw and brazed it on to the newly threaded brass stem.


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