# Taps and dies



## Bm101 (31 May 2016)

If you were looking a buying your first ones would you go for joblots offf ebay, a set or pay a little more for selected sizes and build up your collection as you went. With the last option, any particular make or seller I should be looking at? I've always been wary of buying sets of anything tbh.
Cheers
Chris.


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## marcros (31 May 2016)

what material are you wanting to tap. quality singles are better, but may be unnecessary on softer materials- they quickly get expensive if you need a few sizes.


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## Bm101 (31 May 2016)

Only on Brass mate. This is all brand new to me. What I was thinking was just buying individual taps a needed. On brass I wondered if any old gear would chew through it.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 May 2016)

I would be tempted to go for something like this if buying a set - 
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue ... c---M3-M12
As you've the correct size drills if you break individual ones you can replace them with better if needed.


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## Wuffles (31 May 2016)

My ebay set of 4 of them go through hard woods and mild steel without any issue. Used them a few times now, always figured I'd buy posh ones if I found myself wanting to replace them, but these haven't let me down yet.


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## sunnybob (31 May 2016)

sets usually contain around 40% that you will never ever want. I have sets of stuff that contain 40 year old unused items.
Buy what you need, when you need it. And if you are only EVER going to work on brass, cheap will be ok (as long as it isnt the deaded silverline). but normally you find yourself being asked to do odd jobs for other people once it gets out you have the bits, so buying a good quality will be a better option.


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## porker (31 May 2016)

If you are cutting threads through steel or anything harder (rather than cleaning up a thread) I would always go HSS instead of carbon steel (nothing wrong with carbon steel but sets tend to be quite soft). I personally buy as I need them because good ones can be expensive. Arceuro as linked above sell reasonable stuff. Also try Cromwell Tools and Tracy Tools who sell individual taps and dies. Dormer and Presto are good makes to look out for although there are others.


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## AndyT (31 May 2016)

I've got an assortment of old taps and dies and also a cheap Chinese set from eBay.

I'd far rather use the old ones and should not have bothered with the set.

There are lots of good old taps and dies around so you don't need to spend a lot for decent quality.
In my experience anything marked as HSS will be good, and it's the sort of marking that can be copied out by a seller who doesn't know what they have got.

If you do buy new, be aware that terminology is different in UK and USA, so Chinese makers can get confused.

Here, a set of taps consists of taper, second and plug. In the USA they call them taper, plug and bottom.

Oh and also, cheap dies are fixed diameter, not adjustable. Ok for cleaning up an existing thread but not so good for making a new one.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 May 2016)

As far as drills, taps, dies, sockets, ring spanners are concerned - everything I ever bought in a set in the last 35 years is complete. I've no idea where the single items are. That would lead me to buying sets - you'll always have some you'll never use, but they're invariably quite a bit cheaper than buying singly. You can always replace one with better quality if needs be. Besides - how do you know which you'll need at any given time? That depends what you do with them of course.


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## AES (31 May 2016)

IMO, your decision depends to a large extent on what threads you want.

It's certainly true that sets contain sizes you'll (almost?) never need. OTH, if it's metric you need then, you'll find the cheapo sets appearing in Aldi & Lidl are plenty good enough for general work, especially IF you use them carefully and keep them clean/swarf free. Those comments apply particularly to working on brass, especially if it's "half hard" brass you're working on (which it most probably will be).

Those sets usually only include 1 tap (the 1st or 2nd taper) but unless you want to go deep into brass, or need blind holes (in which case you'll need a plug or bottom tap), they'll do you fine. They have the advantage that they include the correct size drills (tapping and clearance) for each tap in the set and also the correct die. The dies are not all that easy to adjust (my set has solid dies rather than split dies) but there IS a little bit of thread cutting adjustment possible.

As you go on you may well break a tap or two, though you should soon learn the feeling of when a tap's about to break - basically if the tap wrench turns a bit without taking the tap with it, STOP! Then CAREFULLY free it.

But if you're lucky you can grind the broken one/s down into plug/bottom tap/s and replace it/them with better quality one off tap/s. If you've broken one or two you'll at least know there's a good chance you'll need that size/s again.

The decision I faced when first "emigrating" to a metric country 20+ years ago but being already well equipped with loads of good quality BA, Whit, ME, SAE, BG, etc, etc, taps and dies led me to do exactly as described above and I haven't regretted that decision once - very cost-effective.

And BTW, although a cheapo set (no doubt from China), on mine at least 75% of the original taps in the set which I do use regularly are still the original cheapos.

One other advantage of a cheapo set is that everything's all neatly boxed - on NO ACCOUNT allow taps to bang around loose in a box or drawer together.

If you do need Imperials or other "special" threads though, I'd agree with the general advice above - buy just the sizes/threads you need in good quality singles, not a set. Once you have gained a little experience of your own particular work you'll know for which sizes and threads you'll normally need 1st or 2nd taper taps and/or plug/bottom taps. And it you can, get split dies, they are MUCH better and easier to use than the solid dies in sets like the above.

HTH

AES


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## woodpig (31 May 2016)

Most of my taps and dies have been bought as I needed them and are by well known manufacturers. Most of the T&D sets I've seen have been low budget. Same thing with drill bits. I could have spent a fortune on buying a set with .1 mm increments but if I need a 6.1mm or a 7.2mm drill bit I buy one. There isn't a right or wrong though provided you're happy with the quality you're buying.


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## woodpig (31 May 2016)

Forgot to add. If you decide to tap other materials, particularly steel, get yourself some tapping compound.


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## AES (31 May 2016)

Yup, +1 for woodpig's point about "funny sizes" too.

AES


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## AES (31 May 2016)

Sorry, posts crossing (busy thread this)!

Also agree with woodpig about cutting lubriacant, but for brass, even though the books say "not necessary" I've found a drop of paraffin or WD 40 invaluable for working brass (both in the lathe and by hand).

AES


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## woodpig (31 May 2016)

I must remember that. I tapped some brass the other day and found it a bit "sticky" so to speak.


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## AES (31 May 2016)

Yeah, it's still a bit "squeaky" woodpig, but it clears the swarf better and makes an overall nicer/cleaner thread. Ordinary 3 in 1 will do at a pinch, but paraffin or WD 40 works a bit better I've found.

This is especially true on the lathe (but watch out, if you're not careful it will still spray you with fine chippings which gets into the neck of yer T shirt, which then you end up emptying into the bed as you get undressed - definitely NOT impressive for SWMBO - DAMHIKT)  

AES


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## Eric The Viking (1 Jun 2016)

I have a very eclectic collection of odd tap sizes, and I've never yet bought a set (keep intending to though). They're eclectic because I used to build a lot of electronics, so found myself needing 2 UNC along with M3, M4, etc. - some specialist plugs+sockets (Elco/Edac) won't accept incorrect substitute sizes of bolt/set-screw. 

The other "uncommon" one I've often needed is M3.5, which is now standard in electrical socket boxes*. You can buy M3.5 taps with handles fitted, for cleaning the "threads" tapped in said boxes, but that's no use if you're mounting the faceplates to something else, such as 3mm aluminium plate!

For those applications, the taps live in the boxes with the specialist nuts and bolts, rather than in the tobacco tins holding the more common taps +dies. I find that easier, as some are very similar to other sizes and it's easy to grab the wrong one otherwise by mistake.

I now always use cutting compound when tapping, even brass, and especially aluminium and mild steel. The difference in result and ease of use is marked. My preference is Trefolex (other compounds are available!).

I find I get a nicer result by using at least two taps - taper + second or taper + plug - I think it polishes the threads a bit. But then I tap by hand, or in the pillar chuck with the belts removed and a weight tied onto the handle - it may be unnecessary if doing it entirely by machine.

I'd welcome advice on how to get dies started: I don't have a lathe, so it's always by hand, and on those rare occasions I'm starting from scratch, I often need several attempts to get one good thread, which is rather wasteful. There must be a knack to it!

E.

*Beware! Pre-metrication, electrical socket boxes were often 4BA, which is very close to M3.5 but NOT interchangeable. You still come across them in old houses. Sometimes you can just run a metric tap through, but it depends on how much metal is there and how worn the threads are to start wtin. It doesn't always work!


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jun 2016)

I keep a pot of cutting oil with a small paint brush in it next to my pillar drill and big vice, and use it sawing and drilling everything metallic - the theory being that if it does no good it will do little harm.


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## AES (1 Jun 2016)

EtV wrote, QUOTE: *Beware! Pre-metrication, electrical socket boxes were often 4BA, which is very close to M3.5 ..... UNQUOTE:

Thanks for that Eric, I thought all electrical stuff was 4 & 6 BA (isn't that why BA was 1st invented?) but have had to do little or no electrical socket, etc, stuff since I've been here, so wasn't aware of the difference. Thanks for the tip, 'cos looking at some of my Swiss electrical bits & pieces it does look just like 4BA, and I'm sure I would have pressed on with BA.

But as it happened I got lucky. A good local tool shop where I go from time to time was having a clear out of old stock and was about to throw some rather good-looking hand and machine taps & dies away. When I protested I was allowed to take the box home and sort through what I wanted (which was quite a lot actually!) and take the rest back, paying "what you think is fair" for the stuff I'd kept. I put 50 Swiss Francs into their coffee fund (about 35 quid at the time) which made them more than happy, and I ended up with a "collection" of all sorts of stuff, including a lot of Metric Fine taps & dies, & including several 3.5 taps & dies. No idea why they were throwing the stuff out, but I was sure pleased, and all the stuff I got was good quality local Swiss & German manufacturers.

But I STILL start off with my cheapo Aldi Metric set!

Re your earlier comment about your stuff "in their boxes". OK if they're individual cardboard or plastic boxes, but if loose, and simply protected with that "dipped into brown waxy stuff", which doesn't last very long before it all splits, a good tip is to go to your local car/aero model shop where they sell neoprene and silicon tubing in various IDs. It's for model engine fuel line, sold by the metre, but cut to short lengths makes excellent tap protectors.

Re starting a male thread (using a die), yes, it's a pipper that, I sympathise. I only use a lathe for that now (run by hand or VERY slow motor) but always had trouble before I got the lathe. About the only thing I can suggest without a lathe is to make a very exaggerated taper at the start of the rod to be threaded (file it in the pillar drill so it's pretty symmetrical) and then after the thread is cut, saw the offending taper off (assuming you have the necessary extra length to start off with).

HTH

AES

P.S. @phil p: Good tip that, a bit of lubricant when doing any sort of metal cutting never does any harm and is usually a positive help. I do much the same (except it's a little tin of 3 in 1 or similar).


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## Eric The Viking (1 Jun 2016)

AES":c9n2u9vc said:


> About the only thing I can suggest without a lathe is to make a very exaggerated taper at the start of the rod to be threaded (file it in the pillar drill so it's pretty symmetrical) and then after the thread is cut, saw the offending taper off (assuming you have the necessary extra length to start off with).



That is a REALLY good idea! I have a horrible thread adapter for photography to make up sometime soon, and I could probably do it that way.


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## AndyT (1 Jun 2016)

Re starting a die, I second what AES says - you must have a taper on the rod that you are threading, whether you leave it there afterwards or not. 
The way we were taught at school was to clamp the rod vertical in the vice, make sure we had the tapered (leading) side of the die downwards resting on the taper, and concentrate on keeping the handles of the die stock horizontal, not worrying too much about pushing down. Probably a good idea to start on something not too tiny - say, about 3/8".

One other tip nobody has mentioned when using hand taps or dies - rotate clockwise for about half a turn to make a chip, then go back a quarter turn until you feel a click as the chip is broken, then go clockwise again for half a turn. This avoids getting long bits of swarf trapped with nowhere to go, which could lead to a broken tap or ruined workpiece.


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## Eric The Viking (1 Jun 2016)

Thanks. I was sort-of taught by my dad, but metalwork wasn't an option at school, sadly (ere my life might have taken a very different path!). Always done the backing-off thing, too - I can't imagine not doing it now. And i've always threaded with some sort of taper, on the end of the workpiece, but not a long one.


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jun 2016)

Don't forget that to clean up a thread in a hole or a nut, if you have a spare bolt that fits you can grind a section off it up to just before the diameter and run that through. It'll clean up enough damage to get you out of a jam.
Likewise, metalwork was first taught when I was in my fifth year so what I learnt I learnt off my my own back. I wanted to go to college to do engineering drawing but my father (a very successful builder) wouldn't allow it as the college was in his words "full of f****** hippy junkies".


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jun 2016)

People have always thought I was a little nuts when I've built/installed a bench of any description and taken great pains to ensure it was level in both planes. You can see within reason whether something on the bench or in the vice is vertical or horizontal side to side, but not back to front.


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## AndyT (1 Jun 2016)

phil.p":cn37q9jh said:


> People have always thought I was a little nuts when I've built/installed a bench of any description and taken great pains to ensure it was level in both planes. You can see within reason whether something on the bench or in the vice is vertical or horizontal side to side, but not back to front.



+1 to that. My bench is horizontal, but the floor beneath it is not - it's probably about 1 1/2" lower at one end, and the floor goes in a gentle wave. That doesn't matter - but the level of the bench does.


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## AES (1 Jun 2016)

+ another 1 to that - it doesn't matter if the floor is level or not (within reason) but the bench & vice MUST be, both ways. Reason is just as Andy T says, when setting up to do anything in the vice (not just thread cutting but even "just" sawing & filing), half the battle is to get the job level in both planes before you start.

BTW, this thread hasn't 'arf drited - it started out with some poor bloke just innocently enquiring what taps to buy!

AES

P.S. While we're drifting, another useful tip to clean up a damaged female thread is to get a scrap bolt the same size/thread, then use a triangular file to carefully file three grooves into the bottom length of the bolt, spaced roughly equidistant around the periphery and set at about 15 degrees to the long axis. You ruin the bolt for normal purposes but it's a useful way of getting out of a problem if you haven't got a spare nut handy - you have of course just made a crude "tap".

AES ("bodgers united"!)


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jun 2016)

I'm sure if he didn't know he's learned quite a lot by now.


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## Eric The Viking (1 Jun 2016)

AES":28grwllh said:


> While we're drifting, another useful tip to clean up a damaged female thread is to get a scrap bolt the same size/thread, then use a triangular file to carefully file three grooves into the bottom length of the bolt, spaced roughly equidistant around the periphery and set at about 15 degrees to the long axis. You ruin the bolt for normal purposes but it's a useful way of getting out of a problem if you haven't got a spare nut handy - you have of course just made a crude "tap".
> 
> AES ("bodgers united"!)



Haven't tried that, but I often hacksaw down across a diameter of a bolt, to make an impromptu thread cleaner. Works well for spark plugs, in particular (with a dab of grease so the crud doesn't fall into the cylinder).

Thread drifting? Serious doughnuts now! 


Sorry I know I'm one of the worst offenders.

E.


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## Bm101 (1 Jun 2016)

Brilliant, thank you all for your answers. I couldn't ask for better responses. As for the 'drift off topic', that's not drift that's just the sort of information that's really useful to someone like me. I'd read the tip about retapping the thread every half a turn but all the other information is new to me so feel free to carry on!
Reading summat in a book is one thing , the experience of people who have done it is sometimes far more valuable especially on a forum (the back and forth of it) so thanks for sharing and valued guidance. I've found many times that it wont help with that first step, you need to do it yourself, when it helps is when you make your first mistake or come to your first problem, then you remember all the little snippets and it's a lifesaver. 

Cheers again guys
Chris


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## MCB (27 Jun 2016)

Bm101":2b7vq9go said:


> If you were looking a buying your first ones would you go for joblots offf ebay, a set or pay a little more for selected sizes and build up your collection as you went. With the last option, any particular make or seller I should be looking at? I've always been wary of buying sets of anything tbh.
> Cheers
> Chris.



I inherited a lot of Taps and Dies in various thread standards (BSW, BSF, BA , lots unidentifiable(!) and a few metric) but when I've needed new ones have bought from both Tap & Die company in north London and Tracy Tools in Devon.

Tap&Die will sell empty wooden boxes with pre-cut hollows for the taps and dies. 

Tracy Tools have provided a first rate service - proper catalogue by post when requested.

MC


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## bugbear (27 Jun 2016)

AES":aek372tn said:


> Re starting a male thread (using a die), yes, it's a pipper that, I sympathise. I only use a lathe for that now (run by hand or VERY slow motor) but always had trouble before I got the lathe. About the only thing I can suggest without a lathe is to make a very exaggerated taper at the start of the rod to be threaded (file it in the pillar drill so it's pretty symmetrical) and then after the thread is cut, saw the offending taper off (assuming you have the necessary extra length to start off with).



There's a really handy gadget for braces - a die holder. The extra length of the brace allow much better control of the die's angle, and the brace's torque and speed are also handy.

This one's from an old eBay listing;







BugBear


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## Bm101 (27 Jun 2016)

MCB":oiq8cqc7 said:


> I inherited a lot of Taps and Dies in various thread standards (BSW, BSF, BA , lots unidentifiable(!) and a few metric) but when I've needed new ones have bought from both Tap & Die company in north London and Tracy Tools in Devon.
> 
> Tap&Die will sell empty wooden boxes with pre-cut hollows for the taps and dies.
> 
> ...



Thanks MC. That's great. I'm really not sure how many sizes I'm going to need hence not yet buying a set although the old mouse finger has hovered dangerously a few times over the set Phil suggested. I need two specific sizes for my current little project. I'd rather build up a few as I go or indeed break them probably. I'll take a look. Thanks again all.


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## AES (4 Jul 2016)

That's a really natty little gizmo bugbear, thanks for posting. I'd never seen/heard of such a gadget before but it obviously makes a lot of sense if you don't have a lathe.

AES


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