# Euro locks



## Phil Pascoe (16 Aug 2014)

Rather than corrupt another thread, I thought I'd start another. I changed the locks when we bought the house, and I bought the euro lock barrels from a specialist supplier. When I asked if they were insurance compliant, the guy just laughed and said none of them were. Is this true? If they are not insurance compliant there must be millions of properties with invalid insurance, and I can't see that somehow. Why is there such apparent prejudice against them?
Phil


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## Zeddedhed (16 Aug 2014)

If you ever get locked out take a normal flat blade screwdriver (if you happen to have one in your pocket), place it in the key slot and give it a sharp whack with the heel of your hand.
Then walk in.
That's why they are not insurance rated - about 1 - 2 seconds from locked to open. It's actually quicker than using the key!


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Aug 2014)

So everyone in the country with uPVC doors has no effective insurance, then? I wonder if anyone's told them?


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## ColeyS1 (16 Aug 2014)

There are euro locks made now to over come this. If you search for antibump and antisnap you should get some hits  newer insurance ones are designed to snap off on the outside so still keeping the actual locking mechanism intact- I think :lol:


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Aug 2014)

That's strange. I changed mine only last December and bought from a long established supplier of up market ironmongery, locks and door furniture : I asked if the locks he'd given me were compliant and he insisted that none were. Common sense tells me there must be, but I'm surprised it hasn't been plastered all over the press that millions of households effectively have no insurance. It would suit the insurance companies to keep the information in the small print, of course.


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## Harbo (16 Aug 2014)

Lots of stuff on UTube showing how easy it is!

Rod


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## carlb40 (16 Aug 2014)

I have worked for various maintenance companies over the years and must have done over 300 'forced' entries to properties for evictions etc. We used to love it when there was euro locks on the doors. Most times we were in the property within 10 seconds, it used to take longer to fit a new cylinder than gain entry. :lol: 

If you want security, fit standard sash locks/ deadlocks. They help, but a lot of time it used to take me under 3 minutes to gain entry with those. (hammer)


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## deema (16 Aug 2014)

UTube! I sighed with resignation when I looked up how I might get into my garage after locking the keys inside. 30 minutes later and it took two minutes for me a complete numpty at the breaking in lark to gain access. Curious at the lack of security my insurance rated 5 lever front and side doors were next for the treatment. Again, about 5 minutes to gain entry the first time, about 30 seconds after that. 

Conclusion, any lock is a doddle to pick, the anti pick system of wobbly tumblers etc just cause a delay. 

How any respecting locksmith can charge a fortune to get anyone back in / drill out a lock rather than use a set of lock picks and a few minutes patience is beyond me.

It's illegal I believe to be possession of lock picks unless you are licensed. Nit that I'm sure it bothers the determined burglar!


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## RobinBHM (16 Aug 2014)

Some anti bump cylinders, like those from avocet have a small magnet in the key that lift one the pins and prevents bumping.

They have secure by design status I believe, although Ive no experience in breaking in so couldnt tell you if they work.


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## marcros (16 Aug 2014)

I remember being alarmed when we moved into our current place. I thought that it would be a good idea to change the cylinders as a matter of course and I wanted everything keyed alike. I hadn't heard if bumping and snapping at that time. 

I ended up going for http://www.avocet-hardware.co.uk/images ... ylinders(2).pdf which were quite expensive by comparison to the standard cylinders, but really very cheap as a security measure. I forget how much they were, 15 or 20 quid a cylinder. With the standard ones, you may as well not bother locking the door. 

Like with all of these measures, anything that you can do to be a bit more difficult than next door is probably enough. They can still smash a window but may as well go and bump next doors locks!

Those cylinders that I did buy, we have had no issues with in 4 years. Probably doesn't say much about the quality but I am happy with them.


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## No skills (16 Aug 2014)

carlb40":ja66wrp3 said:


> I have worked for various maintenance companies over the years and must have done over 300 'forced' entries to properties for evictions etc. We used to love it when there was euro locks on the doors. Most times we were in the property within 10 seconds, it used to take longer to fit a new cylinder than gain entry. :lol:
> 
> If you want security, fit standard sash locks/ deadlocks. They help, but a lot of time it used to take me under 3 minutes to gain entry with those. (hammer)



+1

Better 3 minutes than 30 seconds.

The only euro locks we have had trouble snapping had steel in them, one had a steel plate running through the length of the cylinder and the other actually had a steel body instead of brass/alloy. Still got there in the end.

If you encounter the ones with the snap off ends they can be annoying, sometimes that bit breaks off and doesn't leave enough meat sticking out of the handles to get on to do the rest. Have to knock the handles off then try again.

FWIW ERA now do a multipoint lock that runs from a 'mortice' style key (vectis ??) - don't know if their any good.


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## No skills (16 Aug 2014)

Heres the Vectis...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kl8ePm0s7k


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Aug 2014)

Marcros - the link doesn't work.


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## TimothyClaypole (16 Aug 2014)

http://www.avocet-hardware.co.uk/images/catalogue/ABS-Cylinders(2).pdf


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Aug 2014)

Thanks - I could have googled it, of course.


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## RobinBHM (16 Aug 2014)

I fitted an avocet ABS eurocylinder on my front door, in a mortice euro lock case and have to say it the action is always very smooth. The only slight bug is that the key has a small magnet which sometimes has a coin stuck to it when I get it of my pocket!

Ive never tried to break in, so couldnt tell you if its burglar proof.

Multipoint locks may not be considered all that secure, but they are much better at pressurising weather seals, something which mortice sash locks or deadlocks arent designed to do.


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## ColeyS1 (17 Aug 2014)

RobinBHM":3cbhwm3w said:


> Multipoint locks may not be considered all that secure, but they are much better at pressurising weather seals, something which mortice sash locks or deadlocks arent designed to do.


That depends where you put your draught strip. I put a wiping seal in the frame rebate so even if the door was 10mm open it would still seal the gap. I guess you're thinking of a compression draughtstrip rather than a wiping one


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## Stu_2 (17 Aug 2014)

I use the Mut-T-Lock brand, and my mate swears by Avocet, but I guess they're just a better level of deterrent to the average scrote looking for a quick and easy target.

I'm amazed the insurance industry hasn't been more prescriptive over the locks used on domestic properties, although I think the best deterrent is probably a decent alarm system, or dogs. Preferable both


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## Harbo (17 Aug 2014)

Similar problem with car locks where the advice is to go back to a Krooklock!!


Rod


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## RobinBHM (17 Aug 2014)

ColeyS1":33eeooy6 said:


> RobinBHM":33eeooy6 said:
> 
> 
> > Multipoint locks may not be considered all that secure, but they are much better at pressurising weather seals, something which mortice sash locks or deadlocks arent designed to do.
> ...



Thats a very point, a wiping seal is certainly a better option with a mortice lock. Wiping seals are very good for traditional windows since the sash can close tight against the rebate with no draught seal visible and they dont stress cockspur handles.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Aug 2014)

Stu_2":1m1d9mdc said:


> I use the Mut-T-Lock brand, and my mate swears by Avocet, but I guess they're just a better level of deterrent to the average scrote looking for a quick and easy target.
> 
> I'm amazed the insurance industry hasn't been more prescriptive over the locks used on domestic properties, although I think the best deterrent is probably a decent alarm system, or dogs. Preferable both



That was what I was getting at, Stu. I remember years ago getting kite marked mortice locks because the house insurance insisted on them. One of the YouTube clips I watched showed a woman who'd been broken into moaning that the insurance co. would only replace the lock on a "like for like" basis - but why would they wish to replace an inefficient lock with another one the same? They don't seem to have much idea.


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## Lons (17 Aug 2014)

phil.p":2b1ypjte said:


> Stu_2":2b1ypjte said:
> 
> 
> > the insurance co. would only replace the lock on a "like for like" basis - but why would they wish to replace an inefficient lock with another one the same? They don't seem to have much idea.



Because the cover she's paid for was "like for like" and although it seems stupid, the insurance co will not pay out for more expensive items than those originally fitted - that is the responsibilty of the insured person. Common sense says that they should pay the value of the original locks but insist she upgrades at her expense otherwise they would refuse insurance or increase premiums.

I'm no fan of insurance companies but the "customer" has a responsibility to make sure his property etc is secure and those who don't put up the costs to the rest of us who do. Don't get me started on fraudulent claims!

The security industry has a lot to answer for as it can't be so difficult to develop better locks surely and remember most of us (and the scrotes out there) would have little idea of how to get past a lock if it wasn't for the web and bloody youtube.

Bob


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Aug 2014)

Those Avocet and Mul T Lock look good, But I couldn't see a price for spare keys - dos anyone know offhand? Presumably they can be cut to a code rather than a copy?


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## DennisCA (18 Aug 2014)

Get some abloy locks


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## marcros (18 Aug 2014)

phil.p":63z24u2w said:


> Those Avocet and Mul T Lock look good, But I couldn't see a price for spare keys - dos anyone know offhand? Presumably they can be cut to a code rather than a copy?



http://www.barnsleylockandsafe.co.uk/Pr ... K-DELIVERY

On Avocet, you get a card with them which you need to produce when getting a copy.

On the website, it appears that you can just enter the code, but either way you still need that code.

The last time that I had a traditional key cut it was about £4, so that rate doesnt look bad at all.


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## cgarry (18 Aug 2014)

So if like me you live in a modern house with UPVC doors, what is the best option for replacing the locks with something more secure? Is this the kind of thing you could do yourself or would a locksmith be required?

Thanks,
Chris


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Aug 2014)

It should be simple - there are YouTube clips that'll show you how to measure them and fit them. It's important to get the barrel length with the centre screw in the right place.


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## marcros (18 Aug 2014)

it is really easy to do. Easy enough to whip out a cylinder, measure and pop it back. Then same again when you have ordered a replacement. you will need to measure each one, they may be different. And dot leave too much to stick out of the handles when fitted.


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## KevM (18 Aug 2014)

Videos and pdf instructions for how to measure and change Euro-locks.


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## cgarry (18 Aug 2014)

Thanks guys, they seem ridiculously easy to change. I will measure my locks tonight and order some Avocet locks to replace them.


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## cgarry (18 Aug 2014)

Okay, it seems it is not so simple in my case. The lock on the outside on my conservatory behaves exactly as expected with a the lock being removable once the large Phillips head screw is removed. Unfortunately the other locks on the house do not have a large Phillips head screw holding the lock in place, there is a hole in the door instead which I think has a screw with a fancy head at the bottom of it. The head looks a bit like a radiation symbol I think, but it is hard to see.


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## dc_ni (18 Aug 2014)

cgarry":19pvdyqt said:


> Okay, it seems it is not so simple in my case. The lock on the outside on my conservatory behaves exactly as expected with a the lock being removable once the large Phillips head screw is removed. Unfortunately the other locks on the house do not have a large Phillips head screw holding the lock in place, there is a hole in the door instead which I think has a screw with a fancy head at the bottom of it. The head looks a bit like a radiation symbol I think, but it is hard to see.



From your description it makes me think of the one way screw,

Here is the wiki that shows the screw types:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives


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## cgarry (18 Aug 2014)

Thanks Dave, I think you could be right. This is the best photo I could get of the screw:


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## wizard (18 Aug 2014)

Just renewed my insurance when asked if i had good door locks i said no, did i have an alarm i said no, did i have window locks i said no, was i in a neighbourhood watch area i said no, when i got my quote it was £150.00 cheaper.


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## Lons (18 Aug 2014)

cgarry":l2aj02w8 said:


> Thanks Dave, I think you could be right. This is the best photo I could get of the screw:


Photo isn't clear enough Chris but looks as if it might be a standard "torx" screw. They're very common and you can buy sets of bits very cheaply.
Bob


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## Setch (19 Aug 2014)

That screw is just an allen screw, almost certainly on a Yale multipoint lock. Comes out exactly the same as any other euro, but the mechanism covers the hole when in the locked position as an additional security feature.


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## cgarry (19 Aug 2014)

Setch":2gmp6th1 said:


> That screw is just an allen screw, almost certainly on a Yale multipoint lock. Comes out exactly the same as any other euro, but the mechanism covers the hole when in the locked position as an additional security feature.


 =D> 

You are correct that it is a Yale multipoint lock and I am now sure you are spot on about it being an simple allen screw! I was so busy concentrating on the detail in the middle of the screw that I failed to notice the large hex shape around the outside. Doh!

Thanks, the job has just become simple again.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Aug 2014)

Thanks, everyone, for posting on this - it has become quite educational. =D>


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## undergroundhunter (21 Aug 2014)

Anti-snap lock mean jack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwOYBbI8ZfA you just need to snap them twice. My front door has a BS standard euro anti-snap, anti-pick and anti-bump. I can pick it and bump it with a key that took me a few mins to make, its quicker to bump it than use the correct key!!!

I suppose your average thief is not going to attempt to pick it or maybe even bump it they will just find an easier target. 

Matt


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Aug 2014)

Quite worrying, really, isn't it?


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## wizard (22 Aug 2014)

Best way to open a door without a key is to back your car up to the letter box, drop a metal bar through the letter box with a chain attached to the centre. Attach other end to tow bar then drive off.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Aug 2014)

Why not just dynamite it? Save the trouble of taking the car.


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## The Bear (23 Aug 2014)

This thread has been very timely for me. I am very soon to move house, the property previously rented so a desire on my part to change the barrels in the PVC doors. I appreciate there are numerous ways to break in, the change of barrels is to prevent a previous key holder simply walking in. But I also have to satisfy my insurance who quote the following requirement

"A mortice deadlock with at least 5 levers, or locks to BS3621 fitted to the main entrance / exit door, or double glazed units with a minimum of a 3 point multi locking system."

I have never owned a PVC door in the past but assume its multi point locking, I believe its about 4 years old.

So are there Avocet ABS MK3 anti snap locks compliant with the above standard? 

http://www.abloyshop.co.uk/avocet-abs-m ... s-13-c.asp

Its not obvious to me whether they are or not but maybe I'm being a bit dumb.


Cheers for the help 

Mark


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Aug 2014)

This thread is progressing as I hoped - it seems to have made a few people think. My original concern was more what was insurance compliant than what was burglarproof - although it's being burglarproof would be a bonus.


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## Setch (23 Aug 2014)

Mark, your door will need to comply with the multipoint locking criteria. It will almost certainly have at least 3 locking points, systems with less are very rare, and usually pretty ancient. 

There is nothing you can do to make your multipoint lock meet the BS3621 by changing the cylinder, as the BS3621 rating is applied to the entire lock assembly. Modular components cannot be rated to BS3621, as the mechanism they will be fitted to is unknown.

There are BS kitemarked cylinders, but these are rated on different criteria. A good antisnap cylinder will improve your security, but depending on the age and type of MPL it may be frosting on a cowpat.


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## The Bear (23 Aug 2014)

Thanks Setch
Having read by requirements again insurance wise, the way I now read it is that as long as my PVC doors have 3 point locking system(which I'm sure they will) they will be insurance compliant? The "or" seems to seperate the BS standard from the 3 point system as a requirement. So just need to change the barrels for my own piece of mind. Or am I reading this wrong?

Mark


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## The Bear (3 Oct 2014)

If I can resurrect this thread, I have just moved into my new house 2 days ago. I want to change the cylinders as it used to be rented out and I have no idea who had access to keys previously 

I have a couple of questions however

2 of the doors I have had the cylinder out no problem. On one door I can only get it so far then it sticks and won't go any further. 2 pics show it at start and how far I can move it, which is about a cm. I have tried pulling it from both sides which makes no difference. Anyone any ideas what's holding it. Have tried several times and did what I did on the other doors. 

Mark


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## The Bear (3 Oct 2014)

Here's the pics

The after pic is at the top


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## The Bear (3 Oct 2014)

My second q refers to my French doors. One side no prob. The other side has the middle joining strip attached. How do I get it off to get to the screw holding the cylinder? I thought it might be fixed behind the locking plates but it's not. Anyone know?

Mark


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## RobinBHM (3 Oct 2014)

Euro cylinder -usually the locking snib has to be at an angle to retract from the lockcase, this means turning the key whilst trying to extract the cylinder. If you look at the cylinders you have taken out, when the key is set straight the snib will be set at an angle. Maybe the lock is a bit more awkward than the ones you have got out easily. 

On the French doors, you may find that you will have to unscrew the upvc flying mullion fitted to the slave door to uncover the multipoint lock.


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## The Bear (3 Oct 2014)

Thanks Robin
I have now got the awkward cylinder out, had to be angled perfectly and was also tight, but out to measure and back in now.

I still cant work out how to get the centre strip off the french doors to uncover the lock, there is nothing to unscrew. Anyone?

Mark


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## wizard (3 Oct 2014)

Whenever i have moved house i have always taken the door locks with me to fit in the new house.


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## DrPhill (4 Oct 2014)

wizard":32zsyk1v said:


> Whenever i have moved house i have always taken the door locks with me to fit in the new house.


Me too. I have a set of keyed-alike cylinders. When I move in I replace as many original locks as I can, and keep them for when I move out.......

Hopefully we are settled for a long time now, though.

Phill


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## RobinBHM (4 Oct 2014)

If there are no visible screws on the flying mullion, perhaps it was screwed on from the glass rebate side -maybe sonebody with more knowledge of upvc systems may be able to confirm.


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## DeanN (4 Oct 2014)

Usually the screws, if not visible, will be hidden behind keeps (where the bolts/hooks lock into).

Is it possible to drill a 10mm hole behind the latch plate to gain access to the retaining screw? The hole should be hidden by the plate afterwards.


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## The Bear (5 Oct 2014)

Thanks Robin and Dean, I'll have another look tomorrow if no one else comes along with any ideas.

Wizard the Yale and deadlock from the wooden doors in my old house are of no use to me here.

Mark


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