# Buying a machine on eBay sight unseen with pallet delivery



## RobinBHM (22 Feb 2022)

Hi all,

Ive won a bid on a Wadkin machine (Sunday eve) Ive not paid yet, I sent the seller an email this morning, just requesting some details, but so far no response.

As its over £1k, I thought it was reasonable to ask some more details - the description is “good working order” and “good condition no faults” so just wanted to check that’s correct.

So far Ive had no reply, should I be concerned?

TIA


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## Jacob (22 Feb 2022)

Check his rating, should be 98% very minimum, and look at other comments.
Only pay via Ebay or Paypal then you are covered to some extent.
If the seller is in N Scotland or the islands don't bother as there used to be a routine scam from that direction involving big machines at bargain prices.


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## woodieallen (22 Feb 2022)

Shouldn't you have asked those question before you bid ?

But I take Jacob's point.

BTW some people will hack an eBay account and so their rating per se is meaningless.


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## paulrbarnard (22 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Ive won a bid on a Wadkin machine (Sunday eve) Ive not paid yet, I sent the seller an email this morning, just requesting some details, but so far no response.
> 
> ...


You have bought it and now want to ask questions before paying for it. Forgive me for saying this but that is really bad form. Consider how you would feel about a winning bidder not paying and asking questions possibly with a view to not honouring the purchase.


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## RobinBHM (22 Feb 2022)

Jacob said:


> Check his rating, should be 98% very minimum, and look at other comments.
> Only pay via Ebay or Paypal then you are covered to some extent.
> If the seller is in N Scotland or the islands don't bother as there used to be a routine scam from that direction involving big machines at bargain prices.



feedback is a bit mixed - 95%

I get the impression it’s the partners account given some of the items are dresses!


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## alan895 (22 Feb 2022)

How much description of the item was there? Were there decent pictures of the item? 

Have to agree with Paul though - its almost rule number one to ask questions before committing to buy anything.


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## RobinBHM (22 Feb 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> You have bought it and now want to ask questions before paying for it. Forgive me for saying this but that is really bad form. Consider how you would feel about a winning bidder not paying and asking questions possibly with a view to not honouring the purchase.


I appreciate that, but I’m just asking for some reassurance that the machine which is described as “full working order” actually is what it says.

When paying a large amount I don’t think it unreasonable to have some contact with the seller, especially as it’s the seller which will be palletising it’s - I would like to know how it’s being fixed to the pallet and protected - I’d rather pay more for packaging than receive it damaged.


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## Bojam (22 Feb 2022)

Feedback possibly a bit harsh here imo. It's an auction and maybe you slap a bid in and don't expect to win. Now you've won you want to know more info about the condition of the machine before parting with a substantial chunk of cash. Doesn't sound like the original description offered much in the way of concrete detail. I wouldn't pay unless the seller is forthcoming. Worse case scenario, you keep your money, they keep their machine (and can put it up again for sale if they choose).


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## Spectric (22 Feb 2022)

woodieallen said:


> Shouldn't you have asked those question before you bid ?


I thought the same, once purchased it is yours unless the description is wrong, ie seller has given an incorrect item description. Always pay through Ebay/Paypal but ideally pay on collection so you know the item actually exist.


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## RobinBHM (22 Feb 2022)

alan895 said:


> How much description of the item was there? Were there decent pictures of the item?
> 
> Have to agree with Paul though - its almost rule number one to ask questions before committing to buy anything.



quite good description, photographs a little dark but clear and covering most sides.

Yes I fully admit I should have asked questions before bidding - I got side tracked with work and completely forgot.


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## RobinBHM (22 Feb 2022)

Bojam said:


> It's an auction and maybe you slap a bid in and don't expect to win. Now you've won you want to know more info about the condition of the machine before parting with a substantial chunk of cash



this is it really - I put a bid on then got involved in other stuff, my bad.

Am I being that unreasonable asking for a bit of extra reassurance before parting with over £1k


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## deema (22 Feb 2022)

The Wadkin BAO are basically the PT without the beds. One persons perfect working condition is another’s problem, just depends on what your perspective is. Could be a great machine, could need work. The seller unless they understand the machine fully and knows exactly how they should operate is unlikely to be able to give you a really informative answer.

They put a good number of piccies up on the auction.


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## deema (22 Feb 2022)

Looks to be original paint and not too battered, controls all look original and in good condition. No signs of rust. Cutter block etc all look in good condition. You even got a nice Wixey gauge. It’s in a house, so probably been used as a recently hobby machine.


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## sawdustandwax (22 Feb 2022)

more red flags on that account than a Spanish bull fighting ring on fight night...
plus how did he test a 3 phase machine whilst sitting in what looks like a dining room? why move it from a garden workshop inside.

options, 
pay for it, if it doesn't meet description/arrives damaged return it, = hassle (and hope ebay don't class it as industrial construction machinery = not covered), if it works you have a good machine at a very good price

request to cancel, seller can't leave you neg feedback, although ebay counts it against you

My 'feeling' is the seller (trader/auction buyer?)was expecting more for it, they'd have sent an invoice by now otherwise.


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## Beanwood (22 Feb 2022)

Regarding the working condition question - if they already said it is, they aren't really going to respond differently are they?
You might reasonably ask for a specific photo to prove they have the actual machine - so trying to reduce the risk of scamming by them picking other ads pictures.


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## Sandyn (22 Feb 2022)

Where is it? perhaps someone on the forum will be near and would do a quick inspection for you. Tell the seller you have someone who will go and see the equipment to verify it is as described, where can they view it. If they are reluctant to do this. I would be ultra suspicious. This sound very like so many scams I have seen on ebay and marketplace when trying to buy equipment.
I hope it turns out to be a bargain and is OK!!


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## icejohn (23 Feb 2022)

First you signed to an eBay agreement. You bid you pay period. Next issue for you is if the machine is damaged on delivery ie cracked in half etc you have right to refuse delivery and ths courier has to take it back no charge to you.
The main problem u have is if you return it later on to the seller, it's at your cost not the sellers so you loose that amount on postage. So you paid a grand say something wrong or differes significantly from description that pretty much the only thing that you got to return it under ebay terms. You will loose the postage cost which is one tenth of the item so not too bad.

Now some other stuff. Seller has a duty to provide comms. What's reasonable here is common sense I believe. Ie u ask about simple one about how its going to packaged up? you don't get a response in 3 days, which is worrying. So you don't pay and call ebay customer services for advice.


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## ian33a (23 Feb 2022)

Personally, I would only bid what I could afford to loose. If I was planning to pay a lot of money for something I would go and look at it before bidding and, even then, it comes with some risk.

I'd be pretty hacked off if somebody bid for something that I had advertised and then appeared to have cold feet about it afterwards by asking a load of questions. I think I'd be keeping the second highest bidder sweet for fear that the sale was, otherwise, about to collapse.


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## rafezetter (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> this is it really - I put a bid on then got involved in other stuff, my bad.
> 
> Am I being that unreasonable asking for a bit of extra reassurance before parting with over £1k



Personally, not really, but then I got snubbed on this forum when I wanted to buy something that was £400 and would have cost another £100 to get it palleted to me, and when I asked for clarification and assurances I then got a VERY "stuffed shirt" response that I had somehow accused the seller of slandering his character because he took it as some personal slight for questioning him. (and just as now a bunch of forumites were ready to also jump down my throat) 

Ebay doesn't give a lot of room for "asking for clarification of information" from a seller before bidding when said seller has, in multiple personal experiences, gone AFK after listing it - so throwing a bid on BEFORE asking the questions in the hopes the seller would be forthcoming in a timely fashion is a VERY common practise. 

It's also common practise as a seller to basically ignore the questions of all and sundry until you know who's WON it, then answer just that person - especially with multiple listings - who's got that sort of time? Or patience?

In an ideal world, yes, but in reality, not so much; so I think you're all being overly critical - having been a regular seller on ebay, answering all the frankly often dumbass questions (because they didnt read the description) can take up HOURS.


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## rafezetter (23 Feb 2022)

ian33a said:


> Personally, I would only bid what I could afford to loose. If I was planning to pay a lot of money for something I would go and look at it before bidding and, even then, it comes with some risk.
> 
> I'd be pretty hacked off if somebody bid for something that I had advertised and then appeared to have cold feet about it afterwards by asking a load of questions. I think I'd be keeping the second highest bidder sweet for fear that the sale was, otherwise, about to collapse.



As to the first, again the timeframe of ebay means sometimes you've just got to throw a bid on; and you're forgetting distance, if it was easy for him to go see it, I'm sure RobinBHM would have, he's not stupid

To the second, again ebay timeframes, blah blah etc etc. - Asking questions IS NOT "cold feet", just prudent when dealing with ebay sellers. Worst case if the seller isnt forthcoming he doesnt pay and the seller has to relist it - and I would also say to RobinBHM if the seller tries to get a "non payer" mark against you I would appel on the grounds the seller ignored your attempts to communicate.

There are MULTIPLE INHERENT RISKS with selling on a platform like ebay and ANYONE who's ever sold on it will know that, and this is one of them, also as you pointed out a seller can now offer to the second bidder (which they couldn't before some years back), so the risk now is even smaller than it was before - but "keeping the second bidder sweet" just how would you do that? Tell them the winner is pulling out, without proof to the fact (only your paranoid assumptions) and then said second bidder gets thier hopes up, only to be dashed when RobinBHM makes good?

Worst case if RobinBHM does pull out because the answers he gets are not to his liking and feels bad he can offer to paypal gift the listing fees etc etc. If the guy doesnt respond, then as a seller it's his own fault and he can eat the fees himself and hopefully learn a lesson.

Get a grip people, this is EBAY not bloody Sothebys! Sheesh!

Edit: Can write stupid and dumbass, can't write i d i o t even though they mean the same thing - go figure.
nincompoop


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## ian33a (23 Feb 2022)

rafezetter said:


> As to the first, again the timeframe of ebay means sometimes you've just got to throw a bid on; and you're forgetting distance, if it was easy for him to go see it, I'm sure RobinBHM would have, he's not an silly person.
> 
> To the second, again ebay timeframes, blah blah etc etc. - Asking questions IS NOT "cold feet", just prudent when dealing with ebay sellers. Worst case if the seller isnt forthcoming he doesnt pay and the seller has to relist it - and I would also say to RobinBHM if the seller tries to get a "non payer" mark against you I would appel on the grounds the seller ignored your attempts to communicate.
> 
> ...



If I was spending money I couldn't afford to loose I'd either not bid on the item (and look out for something nearer at a later date) or make the effort to go and look before making the bid. For something at a throw away price, no I wouldn't care, I'd place the bid and keep my fingers crossed.

If I was interested in something I would ask my questions first. If the seller was selling something costing pennies I can appreciate that they may be inundated with questions and be unresponsive. For a capital cost item, and I appreciate that everyone has a different reference point , as a seller, I would make a more than reasonable effort to answer a potential buyers question. I see a bit of presale customer service as a method of increasing the bids on an item, unless obviously, if its a buy it now. If a seller isn't answering my questions, as a buyer, I would think twice about placing a bid - especially if its a lot of money.

If I was selling items on an auction site, and I do so from time to time, alarm bells would start to ring in my head if somebody who has won the auction starts asking questions that should really have been asked before placing a bid. I would certainly start to think about second bidders and keep them in my back pocket.


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## Fergie 307 (23 Feb 2022)

Bojam said:


> Feedback possibly a bit harsh here imo. It's an auction and maybe you slap a bid in and don't expect to win. Now you've won you want to know more info about the condition of the machine before parting with a substantial chunk of cash. Doesn't sound like the original description offered much in the way of concrete detail. I wouldn't pay unless the seller is forthcoming. Worse case scenario, you keep your money, they keep their machine (and can put it up again for sale if they choose).


Try that approach at a live auction and see how you get on! If you bid and win you have bought it. And descriptions like in good working order are so subjective as to be totally meaningless. Your only recourse would be if you plug it in and it doesn't work, or there is something clearly misdescribed. So you should always satisfy yourself with the condition before you bid. The only way to do that is to examine it in person, often not possible, so you are taking a gamble. If the seller has good positive feedback for selling similar stuff over years then the description will probably be accurate, but that is about as far as it goes.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

rafezetter said:


> It's also common practise as a seller to basically ignore the questions of all and sundry until you know who's WON it, then answer just that person - especially with multiple listings - who's got that sort of time? Or patience



my experience of asking questions on an item in an eBay auction is that the sellers gives the most perfunctory replies, often one word answers - understandably given there could be loads of people asking questions, many just tyre kickers.


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## Fergie 307 (23 Feb 2022)

Beanwood said:


> Regarding the working condition question - if they already said it is, they aren't really going to respond differently are they?
> You might reasonably ask for a specific photo to prove they have the actual machine - so trying to reduce the risk of scamming by them picking other ads pictures.


You can do a reverse image search on google, if you find the same pictures popping up elsewhere in connection with other sellers or sites then it's a scam, and they have just uploaded someone else's images to create the listing.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Has anybody got experience of pallet deliveries arranged through ebay - my concern is how the seller will fit to pallet and how well it will be protected.


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## wallace (23 Feb 2022)

I didnt know ebay arranged pallet deliveries. If I buy a machine I will offer to pay the seller extra to do a good job of palletising it and ask them to use a decent pallet suitable for said machine. I will also have some ratchet straps sent to them to make sure it is secured properly.
You pays your money and takes your chances, I've had lots of machines delivered with some horror stories, the worst being from a machinery dealer who put a big morticer on a chipboard pallet no bigger than the machines base. It was bought sight unseen but was said to be in good order and was working when removed. When it came it was a total lemon. It had been outside for a very long time, motors seized and extremely rusty.
You can tell alot from a few pictures, and like deema said it looks ok


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## baldkev (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Has anybody got experience of pallet deliveries arranged through ebay - my concern is how the seller will fit to pallet and how well it will be protected.



I bought a multico p/t on ebay, just over 1k, plus 130 delivery which included optional extra insurance. The seller arranged the courier. Yes i paid a lot, but it was listed as having had hardly any use.....
It is in good nick, bit clearly has had a fair bit of use. The rise and fall failed after just a couple of hours of use, a difficult thing to access as it turned out ( without taking it apart )
Anyway, i guess the point is, the delivery went well, the pallet company phoned before arriving etc. 
As said by others, you could arrange one of us to go see it.... where is it? Either way, i would expect the seller to respond, maybe ping them another message explaining you want the item but were asking for clarification. Also check the insurance status


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## Adam W. (23 Feb 2022)

@RobinBHM It's ebay.

If you don't know exactly how ebay works, why are you spending a grand buying something there ?


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## robgul (23 Feb 2022)

All the above - ask before you bid. Given the amount of money, your location and (assuming I found the same item) the machine I'd be inclined to hire a truck and drive there with the cash to collect and pay/or not (you'd get the £80 off the delivery charge to offset your costs)


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## Tris (23 Feb 2022)

If the seller is uncommunicative then get in touch with eBay customer services. 
We have had issues with both buyers and sellers on occasion and they have always been very helpful.
+1 for hiring a van


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## Distinterior (23 Feb 2022)

+ 2 for hiring a van..


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## Insanity (23 Feb 2022)

sawdustandwax said:


> more red flags on that account than a Spanish bull fighting ring on fight night...
> plus how did he test a 3 phase machine whilst sitting in what looks like a dining room? why move it from a garden workshop inside.
> 
> options,
> ...



Wow, in the dining room??? have you got the link?


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## rob1693 (23 Feb 2022)

WADKIN BAO 12X7" PLANER THICKNESSER 3 PHASE 3HP RARE 3 KNIFE BLOCK | eBay


WADKIN BAO 12" THICKNESSER. 3HP CUTTER BLOCK. RARE OPTIONAL EXTRA 3 KNIFE CUTTER BLOCK. 2 FEED SPEEDS USING INDEPENDENT FEED MOTOR AND CUTTER BLOCK MOTOR - VERY STRONG MACHINE. DON'T HAVE THE SPACE TO KEEP EVERY MACHINE I LIKE!



www.ebay.co.uk


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## Jameshow (23 Feb 2022)

rob1693 said:


> WADKIN BAO 12X7" PLANER THICKNESSER 3 PHASE 3HP RARE 3 KNIFE BLOCK | eBay
> 
> 
> WADKIN BAO 12" THICKNESSER. 3HP CUTTER BLOCK. RARE OPTIONAL EXTRA 3 KNIFE CUTTER BLOCK. 2 FEED SPEEDS USING INDEPENDENT FEED MOTOR AND CUTTER BLOCK MOTOR - VERY STRONG MACHINE. DON'T HAVE THE SPACE TO KEEP EVERY MACHINE I LIKE!
> ...


No dresses in this seller's listing just eggs? 

Has it been listed twice as a scam? 

I saw a site saw that was listed several times guy had a tattoo which gave it away!


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

deema said:


> Looks to be original paint and not too battered, controls all look original and in good condition. No signs of rust. Cutter block etc all look in good condition. You even got a nice Wixey gauge. It’s in a house, so probably been used as a recently hobby machine.


yes, the machine does look in good, original condition -not been ruined by hammerite!

I wondered if the machine has ever been used by the seller -the wixey gauge is sitting on top of what looks like a single to 3 phase converter....maybe it was a "project" that never got fitted up.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Jameshow said:


> No dresses in this seller's listing just eggs?
> 
> Has it been listed twice as a scam?
> 
> I saw a site saw that was listed several times guy had a tattoo which gave it away!


there are dresses in the reviews 

also some wood working gear -like cutterblocks, TCT tips etc -it makes me think its an account shared with the wife.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

wallace said:


> I didnt know ebay arranged pallet deliveries. If I buy a machine I will offer to pay the seller extra to do a good job of palletising it and ask them to use a decent pallet suitable for said machine. I will also have some ratchet straps sent to them to make sure it is secured properly.
> You pays your money and takes your chances, I've had lots of machines delivered with some horror stories, the worst being from a machinery dealer who put a big morticer on a chipboard pallet no bigger than the machines base. It was bought sight unseen but was said to be in good order and was working when removed. When it came it was a total lemon. It had been outside for a very long time, motors seized and extremely rusty.
> You can tell alot from a few pictures, and like deema said it looks ok


I dont actually know if it is a pallet delivery -it just says "economy delivery" (other courier, 3 days)


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Distinterior said:


> + 2 for hiring a van..


yeah -Ive hired vans in the past, Ive been a bit busy and didnt want a day driving really -Im already collecting a Gibbs MDF sander next week in Folkstone


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Sandyn said:


> Where is it? perhaps someone on the forum will be near and would do a quick inspection for you.



its listed as Colchester -North Essex, I guess


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## Sideways (23 Feb 2022)

I'm with the team who say ask your questions first. Once you bid you're committed.
But questions about shipping are fair. You need to be able to decide between having them ship it and going to get it so that you can pay the right amount. So no pay until the seller talks to you.

"Good working order " "good condition, no faults" is a clear statement.
If it's dead on arrival then you have a "not as described" case to get it taken back / partial refund.
You've risk is really only the £80 pallet fee and those unknown costs that come with any secondhand item.

On the upside, it's a thicknesser. At least neither the seller nor the shipper can mess it up by lifting or heaving it about by the planer tables.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

sawdustandwax said:


> My 'feeling' is the seller (trader/auction buyer?)was expecting more for it, they'd have sent an invoice by now otherwise



I thought the price was about right for a BAO -its the thicknesser only not the BAO/S planer thicknesser

I didnt know the seller can can issue an invoice like that (not really used ebay much as a seller)

Im surprised the seller hasnt been in touch -delivery has to be sorted out an discussed.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Sideways said:


> I'm with the team who say ask your questions first. Once you bid you're committed.
> But questions about shipping are fair. You need to be able to decide between having them ship it and going to get it so that you can pay the right amount. So no pay until the seller talks to you.
> 
> "Good working order " "good condition, no faults" is a clear statement.
> ...



many thanks -I fully agree I'm in the wrong for not asking questions beforehand.

I took the description of "good condition, no faults" at face value -since winning the bid, I was only after reassurance that was the case -I made it very clear to the seller that I was committed to buying subject only to confirmation about shipping.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

wallace said:


> I didnt know ebay arranged pallet deliveries. If I buy a machine I will offer to pay the seller extra to do a good job of palletising it and ask them to use a decent pallet suitable for said machine. I will also have some ratchet straps sent to them to make sure it is secured properly.
> You pays your money and takes your chances, I've had lots of machines delivered with some horror stories, the worst being from a machinery dealer who put a big morticer on a chipboard pallet no bigger than the machines base. It was bought sight unseen but was said to be in good order and was working when removed. When it came it was a total lemon. It had been outside for a very long time, motors seized and extremely rusty.
> You can tell alot from a few pictures, and like deema said it looks ok


Hi Wallace, the BAO is described as a "rare 3 knife model" -is that likely to be correct? - Ive not come across old Wadkins to have anything but 2 knife blocks and would surprised if its an option.


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## Morty (23 Feb 2022)

Do I see a 3 core cable feeding into the back of the machine on picture 4 ??? so could be a single phase feed + converter inside but no mention in description


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Morty said:


> Do I see a 3 core cable feeding into the back of the machine on picture 4 ??? so could be a single phase feed + converter inside but no mention in description


Yes, I thought that it was a 3 core cable in that image, but on image 1 it looks like there is 4 cores


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## Cozzer (23 Feb 2022)

Just my point of view....

95% feedback would've raised alarm number 1.
I would've clicked on the seller's feedback number, picked on the red negatives, and read them. I'd have also figured out what %age negatives to number of sales in the last month/6 months/year.
If the negs complained about lack of comms/item descriptions/seller's attitude, I'd have moved on, sharpish.


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## Distinterior (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> its listed as Colchester -North Essex, I guess



I'm in that area....PM me Robin if you think I could help....

Tim.


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## Jonm (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> many thanks -I fully agree I'm in the wrong for not asking questions beforehand.
> 
> I took the description of "good condition, no faults" at face value -since winning the bid, I was only after reassurance that was the case -I made it very clear to the seller that I was committed to buying subject only to confirmation about shipping.


It is easy to be wise after the event and it would have been better to ask the questions beforehand. However you are only asking for confirmation that the item is “as described” given the difficulty in returning it.

I have not read all the comments on here but someone on eBay tried to scam me with purchase of a rough terrain fork lift truck. Long way away, Scotland, all went pear shaped when I tried to arrange for an expert to inspect it prior to purchase.


RobinBHM said:


> I get the impression it’s the partners account given some of the items are dresses!


That is what I thought with the fork lift, turned out it was a stolen account.

So be careful, personally I would not part with that sort of money for something unseen either by myself or someone with knowledge of the machine.
Edit- looks like you have an offer from Disinterior, I would follow it up.


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## shed9 (23 Feb 2022)

Ask for an invoice and in that ask reiterate your previous request on the condition of the machine, you are merely asking them to confirm. Ask for a contact number and / or location details advising that you will explore your own collection as an option.

Yes it should have been done before winning the bid but if this is a genuine seller the worst that will happen is he will be slightly irked but will probably understand. Use Ebay or paypal to pay, you will get a unique number /QR code from ebay to present to the seller when you collect. Maybe use a credit card in that payment chain to ebay or paypal for extra security (charge back). Do not share the QR code prior to collection, especially if the seller asks before then.

It is a pallet delivery, it states it in the description. I've had Ebay pallet deliveries in the past and it's been generally okay but that's been more luck than design. Personally I'd avoid hiring a van as without doing a site survey this is possibly a waste of time and money. Shifting >275kg from a strangers house and into a van is no easy feat. That said, if you turn up and there is a major issue in the description, easier to walk away and request your cash back.

Message ebay using the item number and specifically ask if this item is covered by their Money Back Guarantee. Have that conversation now and have it in chat, not verbally so you get the chat transcript. Technically it is eligible although if you use your own courier you are not covered.

You are perfectly within your rights to do what you feel prudent in parting with £1,200 of your own funds, especially if you are just looking for reassurance.

Apologies if there is some egg sucking advice up there ^.


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## TRITON (23 Feb 2022)

I think you'll probably be fine, oh boy the doom mongers on this thread 
Its an old machine yes, but most of the ones people have here and have bought from other sources were also old machines and unless you want to embark on a strip down and renovation nightmare, I'd just put it into service and work it from there.

The seller seems a bit of a hit miss, certainly no morals when it comes to not sending things that didnt reach their expectation of price, but i dont see that being an aspect on this sale, so probably best disclude them from the equation.
I've always sent, even when it didnt go as high as i hoped, but more recently on my sales i use a set price, saves any disappointment.

I'd also agree with many that hiring a van is a very good idea, but thats a seriously heavy lump of cast iron, so how you would load it should be a consideration, and while the seller might offer to help, thats not a given, so you cant rely upon it.


Cozzer said:


> 95% feedback would've raised alarm number 1.


Well yes and no.
Plenty of people have have negs left for scurrilous reasons - the sky wasnt blue that day, or it arrived beyond a three day limit the buyer had set themselves to cross 2 Oceans and 4 deserts, so people do leave dumb feedback for a host of reasons, some even use the neg feedback system to try to scrape back some money because its not _exactly_ as they thought it would be and when told they can send it back but theres going to be no discounts go off in a huff and leave a neg.

I place a policy in my listings - you have any problems, 'Just send it back to me for a full refund return postage included.'

I think you need to consider what you are buying, what can effectively go wrong, can that be sorted easily, and if there is something amiss you have to sort, did you still do well price wise over what you've spent, and what any replacement part is likely to cost.
EG. A bit back a customer return sawbench with pretty much zero use sold in Axminsters ebay for just under £600, the saw retails at £3000 industrially rated. (What a bargain ), especially as postage was included, or a fiver) Even if that arrived with a burnt out motor, a replacement cost you would still have done extremely well.

There doesnt look to be anything physically wrong with it. The motor might be fubar, but we at this stage dont know that. All in all it looks in well used but still pretty good cosmetic condition. Certainly isnt rusted to hell and back.

Last point. Say there is something wrong with it and its completely non functional. The sale is 'used' so you have ebay assurances you can return it. And given its cost £1120 you can threaten small claims court should the seller refuse to take it.

I believe you as buyer can request from ebay the sellers address. Google that to give you an idea of the lay of the land so to speak. There should be a protocol to follow if you google 'requesting ebay sellers address' it will tell you how to go about it. Make sure it's not a caravan park


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## Spectric (23 Feb 2022)

Another thing to remember is that if you buy on this forum you will have confidence that the seller knows what they are selling and can answer all questions but on auction sites there are a lot of people selling anything hoping to make a fast buck that really do not know a great deal about what it is they are selling apart from the obvious. This is why it is a good idea to go out of your way to collect in person, if you turn up and it is not as described then you can discuss face to face rather than take a chance.


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## deema (23 Feb 2022)

I recommend people to buy two types of secondhand machines. The first type have been fully refurbished by someone who knows what they are doing, documents what they’ve done etc etc. the second is a machine that is in original condition, that someone hasn’t tinkered with, painted, adapted, etc. these are almost always nightmare machines, and I will not buy them. The machine you’ve bought looks to be an unadulterated original machine. Not much that can’t be resolved fairly easily as long as nothing is missing / castings aren’t cracked or broken. The only thing to check is the motors which are imperial shafted and an odd size. It’s a headache to replace them.

ebay used to cover woodworking machines under their money back guarantee, I’d just check that it’s still covered. They have made a full refund to me in the past when I paid and the machine didn’t turn up. That was however a number of years ago.


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## Jonm (23 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Try that approach at a live auction and see how you get on! If you bid and win you have bought it. And descriptions like in good working order are so subjective as to be totally meaningless. Your only recourse would be if you plug it in and it doesn't work, or there is something clearly misdescribed. So you should always satisfy yourself with the condition before you bid. The only way to do that is to examine it in person, often not possible, so you are taking a gamble. If the seller has good positive feedback for selling similar stuff over years then the description will probably be accurate, but that is about as far as it goes.


I once bought a car at a live car auction, inspected it visually, won the auction and then took it for a test drive. Clutch slipped so did not buy it, not as described.


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## Alasdair (23 Feb 2022)

A quick warning. I bought a car on ebay using paypal and had problems with the seller as I got it very cheap and they then started stalling and canceled the pick up I organised saying it had developed a fault and wasn't as advertiseed.. Tried to get my money back via paypal and found it doesnt cover cars. Eventually got it back but it took a good while and loads of messages. Paypal also says they dont cover industrial machinery for manufacturing as well as houses etc. Check you are covered as it could be seen as an industrial manufacturing machine. If you pay for it and its a scam or garbage getting your money back may be a problem!!
Alasdair


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## shed9 (23 Feb 2022)

To note, the registered ebay address and collection address are not always the same. Also the money back eligibility covers industrial machinery but not industrial construction machinery hence the advice to use the item number in a recorded chat session to confirm that eligibility.


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## Oakay (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Ive won a bid on a Wadkin machine (Sunday eve) Ive not paid yet, I sent the seller an email this morning, just requesting some details, but so far no response.
> 
> ...


Hire a plant trailer or suitable vehicle, or someone you trust to collect who knows what to look for and pay cash on collection. That way, if it doesn't fit description, you can walk away. Only bid on reasonably local machinery.


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## okeydokey (23 Feb 2022)

If you are uncertain then ask the seller to cancel the purchase as you have made a mistake. they should cancel if they are reputable. As you haven't paid IMO the most they can do is ask ebay to ask you to pay and you reply saying you've changed your mind and ebay might perhaps log in their system that you failed to complete a purchase - so what big deal better than losing potentially a £1000


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## Oakay (23 Feb 2022)

okeydokey said:


> If you are uncertain then ask the seller to cancel the purchase as you have made a mistake. they should cancel if they are reputable. As you haven't paid IMO the most they can do is ask ebay to ask you to pay and you reply saying you've changed your mind and ebay might perhaps log in their system that you failed to complete a purchase - so what big deal better than losing potentially a £1000


Agreed if they are not communicative. Good communication is essential and if the seller is not responding, you have reason for doubt.


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## Vann (23 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Try that approach at a live auction and see how you get on! If you bid and win you have bought it...



At a live auction things are different. You get time to check the item before you bid.
And you know you're buying from a reputable seller (i.e. you know the item exists).

I think it's fine to ask for reassurance even after the ebay bidding is over. I've seen handplanes with the cutting iron in wrong way around, described as being in good working order.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Vann (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Hi Wallace, the BAO is described as a "rare 3 knife model" -is that likely to be correct? - Ive not come across old Wadkins to have anything but 2 knife blocks and would surprised if its an option.



My knowledge of Wadkins gets shaky when it comes to Wadkin-Bursgreen models, but a friend has a late 1950s Wadkin RZ with an optional 4-knife cutterblock (most RZs came with the standard 2-knife head). The 4-knife head uses the safer wedge method for holding the knives.

Good luck with this purchase. I'd be inclined to go collect it.

Cheers, Vann.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Distinterior said:


> I'm in that area....PM me Robin if you think I could help....
> 
> Tim.


Thank you very much for the offer, that’s very kind - this is a fantastic community on here. 

if I get any further with this I will get in touch.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Oakay said:


> Hire a plant trailer or suitable vehicle, or someone you trust to collect who knows what to look for and pay cash on collection. That way, if it doesn't fit description, you can walk away. Only bid on reasonably local machinery.


Yes I generally do that but since delivery was being offered, it seemed a great way to avoid a full days driving and loading each end……which is also inherently risky.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

The bidding on this was interesting, the bids worked up to £630, close to the end there was a bid of £1100 and I won it with a snipe bid (gixen) of £1200.…..so final amount was one increment more than £1100

I slightly wonder if the second bidder has messaged and offered more - as he clearly wanted it. Maybe he’s offered to collect and pay cash (can seller avoid eBay fees doing that?)


I sent another message this morning but no response at all - I’m clearly being ignored.

Part of me thinks I should pay it and see what happens, but Its a bit hard when Im being ignored.


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## Daniel2 (23 Feb 2022)

Considering that you still have not received any communication from the vendor, I would be inclined to hold off paying and see what pans out. Wait now for them to contact you, if they ever do.
If they don't get in contact with you, just try and put it down to experience and move on.
Getting involved in raising a dispute will only cost you time and stress.


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## Pedronicus (23 Feb 2022)

The seller does appear to have history regarding poor or non-existent comms.


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## sawdustandwax (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> I sent another message this morning but no response at all - I’m clearly being ignored.
> 
> Part of me thinks I should pay it and see what happens, but Its a bit hard when Im being ignored.


Now you're just looking for grief....you've sent multiple messages and the seller hasn't even got back to you wondering where the payment is..or even saying 'pay me then we can arrange delivery'
unless you've become emotionally attached to having the green machine, engage ebay and request to cancel, after 4 days the seller can cancel on you, ringing any bells to the earlier post...


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## Fergie 307 (23 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> I once bought a car at a live car auction, inspected it visually, won the auction and then took it for a test drive. Clutch slipped so did not buy it, not as described.


which is precisely one of the circumstances I mentioned when you can reject something, ie if it is not as described. The problem is " in good working order" is a matter of opinion and therefore essentially meaningless.


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## shed9 (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> I sent another message this morning but no response at all - I’m clearly being ignored.
> 
> Part of me thinks I should pay it and see what happens, but Its a bit hard when Im being ignored.



Personally I'd wait for comms until any payment is made, you are not asking much for open comms post auction and its not that rude in itself for them to ignore you. I'd contact ebay and raise your concerns, that way you will have some protection against a mark against your account if the sale automatically cancels due to non-payment. The reasons for comms silence may be valid but cover yourself either way.

To point out the obvious if it hasn't been already, the seller has some chance of being on here, just saying...


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

shed9 said:


> To point out the obvious if it hasn't been already, the seller has some chance of being on here, just saying..


yes I did think that…..I did try and be vague so the actual listing wasn’t able to be identified, however this parish is full of clever people with a nose for sniffing out old cast iron.


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## RobinBHM (23 Feb 2022)

Update!

the seller has got back to me and has answered all my questions in full and I do feel reassured, although somewhat confused by the delay in responding, I would’ve been checking if I had sold a machine for that sort of money.

Im waiting for an update on the delivery with insurance so once Ive got that, I shall deal with the payment.


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## Fergie 307 (23 Feb 2022)

Vann said:


> At a live auction things are different. You get time to check the item before you bid.
> And you know you're buying from a reputable seller (i.e. you know the item exists).
> 
> I think it's fine to ask for reassurance even after the ebay bidding is over. I've seen handplanes with the cutting iron in wrong way around, described as being in good working order.
> ...


No. When you sign up to e bay you undertake to buy something if you are the winning bidder, those are the rules. If you don't like them and the inherent risks involved in this sort of site, then don't use it. 
And it is YOUR responsibility to satisfy yourself with the condition of the item before you bid, and to satisfy yourself that the seller is legitimate, not to embark on that process once you have won the auction. If you can't physically examine it yourself then you have to decide if you are prepared to take a punt on the basis of the description and photographs. The only recourse you have after the event is if the thing is not as described. I entirely agree that the seller should communicate regarding shipping, but in this case there was a clear flag in their feedback to tell you that this might not be the case. it may of course be that they are ignoring the buyer because they have yet to actually pay for it! If you are looking to spend that amount then it pays to do your homework, which in this case would have probably led to the conclusion that this seller might be better avoided, unless the price was going to be so cheap as to make it worth the risk. At this stage I think it would be reasonable to message the seller to request a response within 24 hours, and if none is forthcoming contact e bay customer services.


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> The bidding on this was interesting, the bids worked up to £630, close to the end there was a bid of £1100 and I won it with a snipe bid (gixen) of £1200.…..so final amount was one increment more than £1100
> .......


The winning bid is always one increment more than the next highest, nothing suspicious about it!
Looks OK to me - but pay with ebay or paypal so you are covered.
Yes there were dresses - perhaps a transvestite woodworker - more likely his Mrs?


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2022)

I've only had one hassle worth mentioning with Ebay and I lost about £200 on a musical instrument but otherwise has been good.
Most improbable sale was my son's old Landrover which was broken down abandoned stuck tight down a narrow back lane on a Greek island, with nobody particularly looking after it for weeks. Sold for £1500, paid pronto and happy purchaser dropped me a thank you letter! He must have extracted it bit by bit!


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## shed9 (23 Feb 2022)

Jacob said:


> I've only had one hassle worth mentioning with Ebay and I lost about £200 on a musical instrument but otherwise has been good.
> Most improbable sale was my son's old Landrover which was broken down and stuck down a tight back lane on a Greek island, with nobody particularly looking after it for weeks. Sold for £1500, paid pronto and happy purchaser dropped me a thank you letter!


I once sold a Disco 1 on ebay many years ago, it looked absolutely lovely and was in perfect working order but just turned out to be an eternal money pit.

When I advertised the listing, I was very clear and the item description actually said it was a complete money pit that would rob the eventual buyer blind of random expensive car parts throughout it's remaining sorry life as based on my experience. The main item description was something along lines of 'Discovery, look elsewhere, don't buy this shed'. I listed everything that had gone wrong with it, everything. It went well over the book price when it sold and I had tons of interest, I guess the honesty worked and I was, brutally. Ironically in the listing I actually stated that I wouldn't be surprised if the car didn't get the buyer home. It didn't and he threatened to to take me to court.


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## woodieallen (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> this is it really - I put a bid on then got involved in other stuff, my bad.
> 
> Am I being that unreasonable asking for a bit of extra reassurance before parting with over £1k


Yes. That horse has bolted.


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## Bojam (23 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Update! The seller has got back to me and has answered all my questions in full and I do feel reassured...





woodieallen said:


> Yes. That horse has bolted.



Seems not. Glad you persevered Robin and got the info you wanted.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Feb 2022)

Pleased it worked out for you, fingers crossed its ok. Looks alright in the pictures at any rate.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Feb 2022)

shed9 said:


> I once sold a Disco 1 on ebay many years ago, it looked absolutely lovely and was in perfect working order but just turned out to be an eternal money pit.
> 
> When I advertised the listing, I was very clear and the item description actually said it was a complete money pit that would rob the eventual buyer blind of random expensive car parts throughout it's remaining sorry life as based on my experience. The main item description was something along lines of 'Discovery, look elsewhere, don't buy this shed'. I listed everything that had gone wrong with it, everything. It went well over the book price when it sold and I had tons of interest, I guess the honesty worked and I was, brutally. Ironically in the listing I actually stated that I wouldn't be surprised if the car didn't get the buyer home. It didn't and he threatened to to take me to court.


Very funny, and good luck taking you to court when your description had proved so accurate! 
The best one I ever saw was In an advert for an old S Class Mercedes. The guy said it's a twenty foot car, looks ok from twenty feet away. Get up close and it looks like it was painted by Stevie Wonder using a dead cat for a brush !


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## Jonm (24 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> and to satisfy yourself that the seller is legitimate, not to embark on that process once you have won the auction.


I think it is perfectly reasonable to verify the legitimacy of a sale after winning the auction. Before bidding is ideal but It may be a waste of yours and the sellers time doing these checks. And it may not be apparent that there is an issue until the sale has gone through. Having a discussion on the telephone (not possible before sale goes through), asking for photos of specific parts of the machine to make sure it exists. If the seller is genuine then they will understand.

I mentioned previously that someone tried to scam me over a fork lift truck. When I subsequently sold the one I did buy, the buyer was very wary, he had previously travelled from wiltshire to Southern Ireland with his low loader to collect something which was non existent, scammers did no get any money from him but it cost him a lot going there and back.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Feb 2022)

Why can you not have a conversation with the seller before the auction ends? I do this all the time buying watches. It's easy to circumvent e bay's messaging block in sharing numbers or e mail addresses.


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## Jonm (24 Feb 2022)

shed9 said:


> It didn't and he threatened to to take me to court.


That made me smile.
A friend, many years ago had a Vauxhall which was forever going wrong, parts were cheap and being a 70’s car was easy to work on but he was always complaining about the time he spent repairing it. In the end it was reliable due to all the new bits, perhaps the purchaser of your disco thought the same.


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## Shane1978 (24 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> No. When you sign up to e bay you undertake to buy something if you are the winning bidder, those are the rules.



This is utter nonsense. I don’t know why people on here are saying this stuff. It’s 100% normal to pull out of a sale. Refund the sellers fees if that makes things easier, but there is 0 obligation - it’s eBay, not a court of law. And if an item costs £1000 then even more so. Seller must understand they can’t sell something for £1k without people wanting to see it before paying and without the possibility that delivery/palleting etc falls apart.
Sellers routinely pull out of an auction cos they got a great offer. Buyers routinely make offers. Sales fall apart after the auction. Ignore anyone who says otherwise - they don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s even an option on the eBay drop-down list of ‘problems with the sale’. If eBay offers it as an option it’s most certainly not against their ‘terms of service’ or the ‘rules’ or any other legal-sounding phrase that people are using to scare you.
Personally I’d only buy something that expensive if I could go and look at it. But if you’ve won the auction the balls in your court. You can pull out at anytime if you’re not happy. It’s the sellers job to ensure this all goes through by helping and communicating. If they don’t they’ll lose the sale. Simples.


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## ScottandSargeant (24 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Ive won a bid on a Wadkin machine (Sunday eve) Ive not paid yet, I sent the seller an email this morning, just requesting some details, but so far no response.
> 
> ...


You’ve got to ask before you bid…if you have outbid someone and then back out, the buyer has lost a sale where probably the under bidder who has done some due diligence.
take the feed back into consideration but Also consider what is NOT said in the description.
i have had some great bargains, I have also wondered why I was so stupid on occasion. If you want a guarantee buy from a dealer who can offer you some form of backup or support


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## RobinBHM (24 Feb 2022)

One thing Ive noticed from the images is one half of the cutter has been heavily used but the other side is totally clean and the cutters look like their unused.

I suppose some people use one side till it’s blunt, then swap to the other - on a 12” machine that gives 6” which prob covers 90% of work for many people

if it’s because one side doesn’t feed, I wouldve thought that could be sorted out.

All old machines have problems, its expected - unless they’ve been fully refurbished by a main dealer.


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## shed9 (24 Feb 2022)

Shane1978 said:


> This is utter nonsense. I don’t know why people on here are saying this stuff. It’s 100% normal to pull out of a sale. Refund the sellers fees if that makes things easier, but there is 0 obligation - it’s eBay, not a court of law. And if an item costs £1000 then even more so. Seller must understand they can’t sell something for £1k without people wanting to see it before paying and without the possibility that delivery/palleting etc falls apart.
> Sellers routinely pull out of an auction cos they got a great offer. Buyers routinely make offers. Sales fall apart after the auction. Ignore anyone who says otherwise - they don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s even an option on the eBay drop-down list of ‘problems with the sale’. If eBay offers it as an option it’s most certainly not against their ‘terms of service’ or the ‘rules’ or any other legal-sounding phrase that people are using to scare you.
> Personally I’d only buy something that expensive if I could go and look at it. But if you’ve won the auction the balls in your court. You can pull out at anytime if you’re not happy. It’s the sellers job to ensure this all goes through by helping and communicating. If they don’t they’ll lose the sale. Simples.


A seller can list and sell whatever they want so long as they comply with the conditions of selling. They have no obligation to 'understand they can’t sell something for £1k without people wanting to see it before paying'. Value is subjective anyhow. Yes, technically a buyer can pull out anytime they want but if the seller is upfront and there are no extenuating circumstances or an issue with the item being sold then that's just a crappy move.

Contracts are based on an offer, due consideration, an acceptance of that offer and the implied subsequent intention to create an effective legal relation concerning that offer. It could be argued that ebay delivers that process and that this is sufficiently understood by participants on the website, you agree to the T&C's of the auction process and accept you understand those when you join. Enforcing ebay contracts however is clearly not easy else the web would be full of legal battles being fought and played out on social media. It ultimately requires a need to evidence loss which is fairly moot in most ebay auctions. Also distance selling introduces geographical jurisdiction issues in itself.

In short, it is possible to legally enforce a winning bid on ebay (albeit not with in the ebay system), just little point in doing it. Ebay works because of trust between seller and buyer. Once you start talking legal threats, there is little pragmatic recourse but to just both walk away from the sale and possibly ebay for that matter.


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## robgul (24 Feb 2022)

If there's any sort of issue on a sale/purchase then ebay (IME) sides with the buyer pretty much 99.9% of the time. 

Even if the item is listed for sale as "no returns" the buyer doesn't have to say much in the way of a flimsy excuse for ebay's process to override the "no returns" stipulation and force a return and refund from the seller (and that's made even easier for ebay now they control the accounting rather than Paypal)


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## Jonm (24 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Why can you not have a conversation with the seller before the auction ends? I do this all the time buying watches. It's easy to circumvent e bay's messaging block in sharing numbers or e mail addresses.


My comment was responding to someone who was being very specific about eBay rules and what you are signing up to. In that scenario, following the rules to the letter, you cannot have a conversation with the seller. Of course you can get around the rules.

I like to collect watches as well. Not bought any for a long time.


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## Jonm (24 Feb 2022)

Lots of comments on here about what you are signing up to when you put a bid in on eBay.

If you are following eBay rules, to the letter, is it actually within the rules to inspect an auction item before bidding. I know that eBay used to delete phone numbers from messages but I have now been reading that they scan messages and ban people who try to make contact, outside of eBay, prior to sale.


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## Vann (24 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> No. When you sign up to e bay you undertake to buy something if you are the winning bidder, those are the rules. If you don't like them and the inherent risks involved...



Yeah right. So what other online auction site do you suggest he use instead? Agreeing to those rules is what you do to get on the site - just like when you tick the box to say you've read the terms and conditions on any of 100 sites. You just tick the box...

Cheers, Vann.


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## shed9 (24 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> Lots of comments on here about what you are signing up to when you put a bid in on eBay.
> 
> If you are following eBay rules, to the letter, is it actually within the rules to inspect an auction item before bidding. I know that eBay used to delete phone numbers from messages but I have now been reading that they scan messages and ban people who try to make contact, outside of eBay, prior to sale.


They do now allow sharing of contact telephone details prior to and post sale however the two parties need to opt-in to this option on their account settings. They also need to accept that their comms could be monitored and any attempt to complete a sale out of ebay will be actioned on. They have threatened financial action in the past but I'm not aware of that happening as yet, doesn't mean it hasn't though obviously.


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## rwillett (24 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Has anybody got experience of pallet deliveries arranged through ebay - my concern is how the seller will fit to pallet and how well it will be protected.



I brought a right rear Skoda Octavia door as it was cheaper to buy a second hand door than to replace the broken quarter glass. Came on a pallet and I was absolutely delighted with the condition and the delivery. Zero issues, but this was the sellers job so they did it properly.


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## Rich C (24 Feb 2022)

shed9 said:


> In short, it is possible to legally enforce a winning bid on ebay (albeit not with in the ebay system), just little point in doing it. Ebay works because of trust between seller and buyer. Once you start talking legal threats, there is little pragmatic recourse but to just both walk away from the sale and possibly ebay for that matter.


It depends what you mean by enforce. You can't legally force someone to go through with a sale, all you can do is sue for breach of contract which should put the damaged party back to the same position they were in before the contract was entered into. In the context of ebay that would mean claiming things like sellers fees and any other losses from not completing the sale (including change of value if the price has subsequently fallen).


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## shed9 (24 Feb 2022)

Rich C said:


> It depends what you mean by enforce. You can't legally force someone to go through with a sale, all you can do is sue for breach of contract which should put the damaged party back to the same position they were in before the contract was entered into. In the context of ebay that would mean claiming things like sellers fees and any other losses from not completing the sale (including change of value if the price has subsequently fallen).


Agreed, you got me but pure semantics in terms of enforcing a situation. Clearly if you are in legal proceedings the chances of following through with the exchange of goods and finances are fairly moot. However you could also technically request commitment to that agreement if those damages were not deemed adequate comparative to following through with the sale. Again, highly exceptionally rare and very unlikely, so yeah, but no, but yeah.


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## Rich C (24 Feb 2022)

To be fair, once it gets to court all bets are off. Would really depend on the mood of the district judge. Just one reason it's a bad idea to let things get that far.


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## deema (24 Feb 2022)

I understand that buying at auction, once the hammer falls (so to speak) the transaction is complete. If your the highest bidder you own the product. It’s for the buyer to insure the item and the risk immediate passes to them, ie if someone is harmed by it, or it’s damaged your liable! The seller has the absolute right to seek payment and the county courts will uphold the sellers rights. With it being second hand only the Sale of goods Act 1979 applies you have no cover under the Consumer Rights act 2015. EBay cannot change the interpretation or enforcement of the acts by its own arbitrary bylaws you sign up to use the site. But what it does mean is that you have the right as a buyer to return any item that isn’t as described, meets the requirements of the product etc.


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## Rich C (24 Feb 2022)

In a normal auction run by an auctioneer yes, but I'm not sure if ebay qualifies as a proper auction in that respect.


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## deema (24 Feb 2022)

@Rich C I’m not a lawyer, so Im not qualified to give an opinion just express a view eBays rules do state that for this classification of item then it’s a binding agreement. It presents itself as facilitating auctions, so I believe the law would treat it as an auction. The old, what a reasonable person would understand / interpretation argument.


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## TRITON (24 Feb 2022)

Shane1978 said:


> This is utter nonsense.


How about rewording this to. 'I don't think you are correct in this'.


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## shed9 (24 Feb 2022)

deema said:


> I understand that buying at auction, once the hammer falls (so to speak) the transaction is complete. If your the highest bidder you own the product. It’s for the buyer to insure the item and the risk immediate passes to them, ie if someone is harmed by it, or it’s damaged your liable! The seller has the absolute right to seek payment and the county courts will uphold the sellers rights. With it being second hand only the Sale of goods Act 1979 applies you have no cover under the Consumer Rights act 2015. EBay cannot change the interpretation or enforcement of the acts by its own arbitrary bylaws you sign up to use the site. But what it does mean is that you have the right as a buyer to return any item that isn’t as described, meets the requirements of the product etc.


Given its ebay, in addition to the Consumer Rights Act (2015) I suspect a lot the legislation will be based on distance selling and consumer contract law such as; The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 There is a chunk of legislation in there that makes it law for the seller, i.e. ebay to make you aware of this law in that process.

Ironically this also does away with ebay sellers claiming no refunds unless not as described or faulty as legally the buyer can return goods within 14 days purely on the basis that goods cannot be physically viewed prior to purchase.

Either way, however it pans out for the OP, we expect eventual pics or it didn't happen.


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## Daniel2 (24 Feb 2022)

TRITON said:


> How about rewording this to. 'I don't think you are correct in this'.



Or: "With respect, I would beg to differ"....


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## deema (24 Feb 2022)

@shed9 Distance selling laws don’t apply to auctions / eBay apart from ‘buy it now’ transactions. Equally it’s an auction not a contract so that regulation also doesn’t apply IMO. Auctions are covered differently.


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## shed9 (24 Feb 2022)

deema said:


> @shed9 Distance selling laws don’t apply to auctions / eBay apart from ‘buy it now’ transactions.


I stand corrected. I knew the distance selling regs didn't cover competitive bids, but understood the application of Consumer Contract Law would. I'll another read later but good to know if the case.


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## guineafowl21 (24 Feb 2022)

Most of my machines are cast iron, green and heavy, and were bought unseen. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t bid on something unless I’m prepared for it to arrive on my doorstep. Questions are asked before the auction ends, and if I’m not happy with the details, or the response, I keep scrolling.

I’ve also sold quite a few, and have had buyers win the auction, then disappear. It’s irritating. Many of them started asking for more pics after winning the item. As a seller, it rings alarm bells when the buyer wins the auction, then starts to decide whether they want it or not, having prevented the other bidders from buying it.

Not really a criticism of the OP, just my view from the other side of the argument.


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## Rich C (24 Feb 2022)

shed9 said:


> I stand corrected. I knew the distance selling regs didn't cover competitive bids, but understood the application of Consumer Contract Law would. I'll another read later but good to know if the case.


A lot also depends on whether it is a consumer contract, which depends on whether either party is selling in the course of their business or not. It's only a consumer contract if the seller is operating as a business and the buyer is not.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Feb 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> Most of my machines are cast iron, green and heavy, and were bought unseen. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t bid on something unless I’m prepared for it to arrive on my doorstep. Questions are asked before the auction ends, and if I’m not happy with the details, or the response, I keep scrolling.
> 
> I’ve also sold quite a few, and have had buyers win the auction, then disappear. It’s irritating. Many of them started asking for more pics after winning the item. As a seller, it rings alarm bells when the buyer wins the auction, then starts to decide whether they want it or not, having prevented the other bidders from buying it.
> 
> Not really a criticism of the OP, just my view from the other side of the argument.


Exactly my point. There are far too many people who seem to consider that a winning bid is simply the first step in a negotiation with the seller. Before you bid you should be sure you want the thing, and are prepared to go through with th transaction if you win. if you are not sure then don't bid. All legal arguments aside to do otherwise is just a really poor way to behave.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> My comment was responding to someone who was being very specific about eBay rules and what you are signing up to. In that scenario, following the rules to the letter, you cannot have a conversation with the seller. Of course you can get around the rules.
> 
> I like to collect watches as well. Not bought any for a long time.


The reason e bay are not keen is because they are concerned about people negotiating their own deals and thereby avoiding the e bay fees. I don't do that, because I simply feel it is bad practice. If you are going to buy or sell stuff using their platform then you should pay the fees. With the pocket watches I collect, as with many other things, you often have a situation where the seller has got something found in a deceased relatives drawer or garage and know very little about it. A conversation with the seller can often be very useful in determining exactly what they have got, and so how much you want to bid for it.


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## MikeJhn (24 Feb 2022)

If you pay by PayPal and there is a problem, for instance the item does not turn up, e-bay will wash there hands of the problem and refer you to PayPal, I had this recently when the seller even got hold of a UK Post office signed receipt, not signed by me and not from the sellers registered address, but from an agent address in London, PayPal sided with the seller, it took a lot of correspondence asking for the Customs forms before PayPal would even consider the claim, they still would not refund the monies, my next action was with the Ombudsman who wrote to PayPal and suddenly PayPal begrudgingly paid me back with a "On this occasion" comment, meanwhile I contacted Nationwide Visa who's card I use to pay my PayPal account, there was no argument they just refunded the monies, so I was actually paid back twice, I contacted Nationwide Visa and offered to re-pay, they told me to put it into my savings account, the amount was £590.00, this is a real life experience not hearsay.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Feb 2022)

Shane1978 said:


> This is utter nonsense. I don’t know why people on here are saying this stuff. It’s 100% normal to pull out of a sale. Refund the sellers fees if that makes things easier, but there is 0 obligation - it’s eBay, not a court of law. And if an item costs £1000 then even more so. Seller must understand they can’t sell something for £1k without people wanting to see it before paying and without the possibility that delivery/palleting etc falls apart.
> Sellers routinely pull out of an auction cos they got a great offer. Buyers routinely make offers. Sales fall apart after the auction. Ignore anyone who says otherwise - they don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s even an option on the eBay drop-down list of ‘problems with the sale’. If eBay offers it as an option it’s most certainly not against their ‘terms of service’ or the ‘rules’ or any other legal-sounding phrase that people are using to scare you.
> Personally I’d only buy something that expensive if I could go and look at it. But if you’ve won the auction the balls in your court. You can pull out at anytime if you’re not happy. It’s the sellers job to ensure this all goes through by helping and communicating. If they don’t they’ll lose the sale. Simples.


That is wrong. If you place a winning bid on e bay you are entering into a legally binding contract to buy the goods. If you refuse to pay for the goods without a valid reason, and that is broadly limited to the item not being as described, or not fit for purpose, then you have broken that contract. If the seller was prepared to go to the trouble of taking you to court over it they would undoubtedly win. No body does of course because it would be too much hassle, so you just block that buyer from bidding on your stuff in future and contact the next highest bidder or relist it. Likewise whilst the seller can decide not to sell the item and withdraw it at any time before the auction ends, if they let the auction run to a winning bid and then refuse to let you have it because it didn't fetch as much as they wanted, they too would be in breach of contract. Regardless of the law, or the likelihood of anyone ever taking any kind of legal action in these circumstances, this is just a very poor way to behave, and I am rather depressed to find so many apparently condone it.
This whole "it's only e bay so buyers and sellers alike can just mess everyone around however they like" attitude is exactly what gives it a bad name.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Feb 2022)

MikeJhn said:


> If you pay by PayPal and there is a problem, for instance the item does not turn up, e-bay will wash there hands of the problem and refer you to PayPal, I had this recently when the seller even got hold of a UK Post office signed receipt, not signed by me and not from the sellers registered address, but from an agent address in London, PayPal sided with the seller, it took a lot of correspondence asking for the Customs forms before PayPal would even consider the claim, they still would not refund the monies, my next action was with the Ombudsman who wrote to PayPal and suddenly PayPal begrudgingly paid me back with a "On this occasion" comment, meanwhile I contacted Nationwide Visa who's card I use to pay my PayPal account, there was no argument they just refunded the monies, so I was actually paid back twice, I contacted Nationwide Visa and offered to re-pay, they told me to put it into my savings account, the amount was £590.00, this is a real life experience not hearsay.


That is a very good point. The card providers very rarely have any qualms about returning your money, in my experience at least. So I too have my pay pal account linked to my bank MasterCard account.


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## Rich C (24 Feb 2022)

In my last eBay dispute, item not as described, seller didn't want to refund, I went to eBay having paid with PayPal. They dealt with it themselves and sided with me.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Feb 2022)

I have only had a few disputes over the years but it has always worked out ok in the end, although it can be a very slow process. You can find exactly the opposite approach as well. A while ago I bought a part for the Merc from a salvage place on e bay, that I had never used before. Advertised as in good condition. I messaged them when it arrived to point out that two wires in the loom were broken and had been joined together with chop block, not really my idea of good condition. I told them I intended to repair the loom and see if it worked, and let them know. Without further ado they not only gave me a full refund, but sent me a replacement part as well. Having repaired the loom the original part worked perfectly, but they refused to hear of me returning the extra one, or the refund. Needless to say they now have a regular customer!


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## TRITON (24 Feb 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> cast iron, green and heavy


I read this as Black, Heavy...and Pendulous.

Watched the rocky horror on disney+ last night


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## SamG340 (24 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Ive won a bid on a Wadkin machine (Sunday eve) Ive not paid yet, I sent the seller an email this morning, just requesting some details, but so far no response.
> 
> ...



£1000 item and he wont even reply to you ? That would set alarm bells ringing for me


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## Jonm (24 Feb 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> Many of them started asking for more pics after winning the item.


Was that because they wanted more information or because they wanted confirmation that the item was in your possession by asking for a specific picture.


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## mikej460 (24 Feb 2022)

Well this post set a hare running didn't it  best case is this guy isn't an experienced seller, doesn't have an eBay account so sold it through someone else's account. So all messages go to the other person's account which she has to relay to the owner. He listed he would accept cash on collection which is always a good sign. The worst case is that he was an eBay seller and was banned. Collection is definitely the right move - have you collected it yet?

Edit: just read you opted for delivery - I hope it works out right after all this angst


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## woodieallen (24 Feb 2022)

TRITON said:


> I read this as Black, Heavy...and Pendulous.
> 
> Watched the rocky horror on disney+ last night


Sounds lie a dubious porn film


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## TRITON (24 Feb 2022)

woodieallen said:


> Sounds lie a dubious porn film


You must have seen the Rocky Horror Picture Show ?. Its about as famous and cult as the original Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy.


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## RobinBHM (24 Feb 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> Not really a criticism of the OP, just my view from the other side of the argument



sellers get the worst deal on eBay, there are lots of scammer customers…they claim it never arrived, arrived broken, arrived short in qty…….often all lies. eBay sides with the buyer - as their business model relies on confidence of buyers.


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## Jonm (24 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> That is wrong. If you place a winning bid on e bay you are entering into a legally binding contract to buy the goods. If you refuse to pay for the goods without a valid reason, and that is broadly limited to the item not being as described, or not fit for purpose, then you have broken that contract. If the seller was prepared to go to the trouble of taking you to court over it they would undoubtedly win. No body does of course because it would be too much hassle, so you just block that buyer from bidding on your stuff in future and contact the next highest bidder or relist it. Likewise whilst the seller can decide not to sell the item and withdraw it at any time before the auction ends, if they let the auction run to a winning bid and then refuse to let you have it because it didn't fetch as much as they wanted, they too would be in breach of contract. Regardless of the law, or the likelihood of anyone ever taking any kind of legal action in these circumstances, this is just a very poor way to behave, and I am rather depressed to find so many apparently condone it.
> This whole "it's only e bay so buyers and sellers alike can just mess everyone around however they like" attitude is exactly what gives it a bad name.


I appreciate what you are saying but eBay is different in that they actively discourage any contact between seller and potential buyers (Edit- except written contact via the eBay system). I understand that they will ban people that their scanning process suspects of trying to make contact before the auction is finished, they basically are more concerned about their fees than allowing proper inspection of goods prior to sale. I cannot think of any other selling method for second hand goods where a sale price has to be agreed without the opportunity to physically inspect the goods or talk to the seller on the telephone. In these circumstances it is likely that buyers will want re-assurance that all is well and sellers should expect that to be the case. If the seller and buyer are both genuine the sale should proceed but with caution on both sides.

The OP wanted reassurance that “good condition” was indeed exactly that and became concerned that there was no reply. Sellers of machinery could post a video of it working. I have done this for a dumper, forklift and a vice. Most sellers do not do this. The video of the fork lift demonstrated its slope climbing and lifting abilities but also plenty of black smoke.


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## Jonm (25 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> sellers get the worst deal on eBay, there are lots of scammer customers…they claim it never arrived, arrived broken, arrived short in qty…….often all lies. eBay sides with the buyer - as their business model relies on confidence of buyers.


My experience is the exact opposite. Never had problems with selling, buying I have had one attempt to scam me out of thousands.


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## pgrbff (25 Feb 2022)

Shane1978 said:


> This is utter nonsense. I don’t know why people on here are saying this stuff. It’s 100% normal to pull out of a sale. Refund the sellers fees if that makes things easier, but there is 0 obligation - it’s eBay, not a court of law. And if an item costs £1000 then even more so. Seller must understand they can’t sell something for £1k without people wanting to see it before paying and without the possibility that delivery/palleting etc falls apart.
> Sellers routinely pull out of an auction cos they got a great offer. Buyers routinely make offers. Sales fall apart after the auction. Ignore anyone who says otherwise - they don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s even an option on the eBay drop-down list of ‘problems with the sale’. If eBay offers it as an option it’s most certainly not against their ‘terms of service’ or the ‘rules’ or any other legal-sounding phrase that people are using to scare you.
> Personally I’d only buy something that expensive if I could go and look at it. But if you’ve won the auction the balls in your court. You can pull out at anytime if you’re not happy. It’s the sellers job to ensure this all goes through by helping and communicating. If they don’t they’ll lose the sale. Simples.


It's quite possible the terms and conditions have changed but eBay policy was that once you have bid you have entered into a contract and that to me is perfectly reasonable. If your not sure about what you are buying don't bid. Ask before you bid, if you receive no reply then it's your choice.
Ebay has changed, people, both buyers and sellers get away with murder.
I have a LN low angle jack I'd like to sell, but I no longer trust the EBay environment to risk losing tht sort of money.
As I said, if your not sure about the item dont't bid, but mave the courtesy not to mess the seller around. Too many people think they can have their cake and eat it these days.


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## Fergie 307 (25 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> I appreciate what you are saying but eBay is different in that they actively discourage any contact between seller and potential buyers. I understand that they will ban people that their scanning process suspects of trying to make contact before the auction is finished, they basically are more concerned about their fees than allowing proper inspection of goods prior to sale. I cannot think of any other selling method for second hand goods where a sale price has to be agreed without the opportunity to physically inspect the goods or talk to the seller on the telephone. In these circumstances it is likely that buyers will want re-assurance that all is well and sellers should expect that to be the case. If the seller and buyer are both genuine the sale should proceed but with caution on both sides.
> 
> The OP wanted reassurance that “good condition” was indeed exactly that and became concerned that there was no reply. Sellers of machinery could post a video of it working. I have done this for a dumper, forklift and a vice. Most sellers do not do this. The video of the fork lift demonstrated its slope climbing and lifting abilities but also plenty of black smoke.


I agree. When I first used e bay you could send phone numbers and e mail addresses through messaging, so you could discuss an item before bidding. They put a stop to that, presumably because too many people were striking deals off the platform and so avoiding paying the fees. They have now 're introduced the ability to contact people in some circumstances, not sure exactly what the rules are currently. I assume this is because they realised that it was actually quite easy to get around, and hopefully also because it was a daft idea in the first place. For a high value item it is always sensible to try and view it first, or If that's not practical then at least go for cash on collection. If the seller is reluctant on either count you need to ask yourself why. I have also done video calls with people before now to see the item. Personally I would never buy a high value item blind, unless the seller has top regular and recent feedback for selling that type of item, even then it's always advisable to pay by credit card for the extra protection it gives you. But the bottom line is that if you are not happy to go through with the transaction, then don't bid.


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## RobinBHM (25 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> I appreciate what you are saying but eBay is different in that they actively discourage any contact between seller and potential buyers. I understand that they will ban people that their scanning process suspects of trying to make contact before the auction is finished, they basically are more concerned about their fees than allowing proper inspection of goods prior to sale. I cannot think of any other selling method for second hand goods where a sale price has to be agreed without the opportunity to physically inspect the goods or talk to the seller on the telephone. In these circumstances it is likely that buyers will want re-assurance that all is well and sellers should expect that to be the case. If the seller and buyer are both genuine the sale should proceed but with caution on both sides.
> 
> The OP wanted reassurance that “good condition” was indeed exactly that and became concerned that there was no reply. Sellers of machinery could post a video of it working. I have done this for a dumper, forklift and a vice. Most sellers do not do this. The video of the fork lift demonstrated its slope climbing and lifting abilities but also plenty of black smoke.



In my experience, if you ask questions during an auction, you get very limited answers.

I bid on the item because it stated “good working order”. Once the auction finished I asked confirmation if this was really the case.


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## RobinBHM (25 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I agree. When I first used e bay you could send phone numbers and e mail addresses through messaging, so you could discuss an item before bidding



In the past I used to do this. When buying woodworking machines it’s perfectly normal to have a chat on the phone


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## Jonm (25 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> The reason e bay are not keen is because they are concerned about people negotiating their own deals and thereby avoiding the e bay fees. I don't do that, because I simply feel it is bad practice. If you are going to buy or sell stuff using their platform then you should pay the fees. With the pocket watches I collect, as with many other things, you often have a situation where the seller has got something found in a deceased relatives drawer or garage and know very little about it. A conversation with the seller can often be very useful in determining exactly what they have got, and so how much you want to bid for it.


All very sensible and I have done the same. However my understanding of the rules are 

_Sharing contact information with shoppers. You're only allowed to to communicate with shoppers using the eBay message system, and you're not allowed to offer them other ways to communicate with you. If you share other contact information—phone numbers, sales floor addresses, email addresses, or non-eBay websites—anywhere on eBay at all—it will be detected and your selling will be restricted._
In the context of “what you have signed up for by putting in a bid” and “following the rules” eBays policy forces you to do this after you have won the auction. Not very satisfactory for buyer or seller.


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## guineafowl21 (25 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> Was that because they wanted more information or because they wanted confirmation that the item was in your possession by asking for a specific picture.


More information, ie pictures of condition. 

When you click ‘bid’, a confirmation box pops up, reminding you that you are committing to buy. Any perfectly valid qualms you may have about item condition, or scams, should have been cleared up beforehand.


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## Jonm (25 Feb 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> In my experience, if you ask questions during an auction, you get very limited answers.
> 
> I bid on the item because it stated “good working order”. Once the auction finished I asked confirmation if this was really the case.


You have placed a bid in good faith on the basis that the description “good working order” is correct. It is very reasonable to try and verify this is the case before parting with your money.


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## Jonm (25 Feb 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> When you click ‘bid’, a confirmation box pops up, reminding you that you are committing to buy.


Yes, committing to buy on the basis that the information provided is correct.



guineafowl21 said:


> Any perfectly valid qualms you may have about item condition, or scams, should have been cleared up beforehand


How? when eBay rules do not allow basic checks like talking to the seller on the telephone, checking a landline number is in the correct area, or physically inspecting the item before bidding. Are you suggesting that this rule should be broken?

In the case of the original post the buyers suspicions were raised after the auction was completed. Are you saying that he should proceed anyway because “When you bid you are committing to buy”.

For an item like this I would want it physically inspected prior to parting with my money.


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## guineafowl21 (25 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> Yes, committing to buy on the basis that the information provided is correct.
> 
> 
> How? when eBay rules do not allow basic checks like talking to the seller on the telephone, checking a landline number is in the correct area, or physically inspecting the item before bidding. Are you suggesting that this rule should be broken?
> ...


I don’t think we’re going to agree on this one, Jon  

The ebay rules require no contact outside the messaging system. I would say if you don’t like that (and it sounds like you don’t), then don’t use the platform. I agree this can introduce risk with large purchases (in item size and cost), but I’m happy to take the risk, depending on price, or walk away. 

Assuming you stay within the rules, what sort of question would you ask after you’ve won the auction, that you couldn’t have asked before? 

If you want to inspect the item during the auction, ask the seller. Some sellers are happy to take cash on collection that will allow this post-purchase, others aren’t. If they refuse a viewing, again, walk away.


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## Jonm (25 Feb 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> If you want to inspect the item during the auction, ask the seller. Some sellers are happy to take cash on collection that will allow this post-purchase, others aren’t. If they refuse a viewing, again, walk away.


I do that. For collection items I am selling, I say that cash on collection is preferred and say they can then inspect before paying. In the past I have inspected before bidding. So I do not think we are that far apart. To date I have always bought the item after inspection and never had a buyer refuse an item I am selling following inspection.


guineafowl21 said:


> Assuming you stay within the rules, what sort of question would you ask after you’ve won the auction, that you couldn’t have asked before?


You can get a lot more/different information from a telephone conversation than emails. Can also arrange to inspect before bidding.

The original post just asked for reassurance from the seller about condition and I can see nothing wrong with that.

My wife bought me a wallet (excellent but used condition) on eBay that I did not need/want. She decided to resell it on eBay. Successful bidder then asked for additional information and Photos, turned out it was a fake, or so he said. According to many on here the buyer was in the wrong, should have asked the questions before bidding and by bidding was committed to buying. I was pleased he had asked the questions as it avoided a lot of hassel.


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## Jameshow (25 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> You have placed a bid in good faith on the basis that the description “good working order” is correct. It is very reasonable to try and verify this is the case before parting with your money.


I would think that means fair wear and tear.... 

So worn gears, bearings, blades etc would be fine. 

However broken castings or a motor that won't start or stops would imho not be working order.


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## Chrispy (26 Feb 2022)

Just as a point of fact, when you open a business account on eBay you HAVE to list your name and address, think phone number is optional but can be there for all to see.


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## Fergie 307 (26 Feb 2022)

Chrispy said:


> Just as a point of fact, when you open a business account on eBay you HAVE to list your name and address, think phone number is optional but can be there for all to see.


I'm sure you also used to be able to put your phone number on your profile as a private account holder as well. I don't know if you can still choose to do this. Many people of course simply include a number in the listing, and as far as I know that is still ok, which again makes a bit of a nonsense of not being able to do it through messaging.


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## Jonm (26 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I'm sure you also used to be able to put your phone number on your profile as a private account holder as well. I don't know if you can still choose to do this. Many people of course simply include a number in the listing, and as far as I know that is still ok, which again makes a bit of a nonsense of not being able to do it through messaging.


I cannot recall seeing telephone numbers in listings recently. I have seen them in photographs which makes me think they get deleted from listings.


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## Sideways (26 Feb 2022)

The last thing anyone will ever see is my phone number on the internet. That's just asking for aggravation- unless you're a business or you keep a disposible number for that purpose. A clear conversation and photos on the record is far preferable in my eyes.


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## Fergie 307 (27 Feb 2022)

That's a fair point, and I certainly wouldn't put a landline number. I have a personal phone, the number only used between friends and family, and one for everything else. I have to say that other that the occasional, "you had an accident blah blah" type calls, which I dare say we have all had, I haven't had any issues.


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