# Restoring an old Norris No 5



## markturner (12 Mar 2011)

Hi, I recently managed to buy a Norris number 5 infill type smoother. Its in not back condition, but I would like it look better. The wood has been painted over with a gloss black finish and the metal sole and frame is in pretty good nick. It still works very nicely however.

Will I be reducing its value by restoring it ? If I go ahead, is there any pointers anyone can give me - for example, I could see no easy way to remove the brass pivoting cap iron tensioner, it seems to be inset into the sides of the frame. I would like to restore the wood, polish the sides, clean all the metalwork etc and generally get it looking gorgeous. 

any links or article would be appreciated.

Cheers,Mark


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## adidat (12 Mar 2011)

we need pictures!!!! (hammer) (hammer) (hammer) 

welcome along


adidat


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## Kalimna (12 Mar 2011)

Waiting for Jimi to enter........


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## Harbo (12 Mar 2011)

If it's in good condition apart from the black paint I would leave it alone?
Some of the later ones had varnished beech? handles.
A light clean and a bit of wax polish is probably all it needs?

Rod


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## Richard T (12 Mar 2011)

Any idea what period it is? I was reading yesterday about pre 1920 = bad, 1920 - 1940 = excelent, 1940- 1956? = bad again but for different reasons.... I'll try to find that link + others.


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## Dangermouse (12 Mar 2011)

hi
Some of the later planes did have painted wood infills, so if its not missing a lot of paint and you think its original paint, not put on like treacle, best give it a polish and leave it at that maybe. Restoring a common Stanley or Record fully is pretty ok, but doing a Norris is more a matter of conservation than restoration I think myself.


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## Richard T (12 Mar 2011)

How is the iron length/ width? 
Here are some spares I noticed recently ... http://www.toolbazaar.co.uk/Spares.asp#4
Including a clue: "(A 3/16" thick blade won't fit a late model Norris A5 plane)."

I've never used this site so can't recommend but at least they appear to have spares. Other goodies too ... proper mitre iron anyone?


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## Richard T (12 Mar 2011)

Here's some relevant stuff:
http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/articles/norris.htm

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merc ... BlogID=184


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## Aled Dafis (12 Mar 2011)

I'd personally go down the restoration route, and just as Rod (Harbo) suggetsed, just clean the plane using some paste wax, Renwax is ideal for this as it'll protect the metal as well as the wood.

Cheers
Aled


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## jimi43 (12 Mar 2011)

We need some pictures as said before....but I agree with the general view...Rennaissance wax on the wood and the metal bits and leave it.

It would help to see what it looks like though.

Jim


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## markturner (13 Mar 2011)

Thanks for all the advice, I have started polishing up the sides and sole and the cap iron etc and its starting to look pretty nice. 

There were some scratches and rougher patches on the paint, if I decide to strip it and refinish it, what would you recommend ? I t looks like it has several coats of laquer over the black finish. Is the black usually just paint or something else. i think the infill wood is lighter grain than rosewood, it looks more like beech or something like that.

I will post up some pictures later.

Cheers, Mark


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## jimi43 (13 Mar 2011)

#-o #-o


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## mtt.tr (13 Mar 2011)

I have a beech varnished one which is cabinet maker tidy as in clean but not polished and it has worn varnish from use looks great. 

My boss as an a1 which has had the handles died a rose wood colour looks amazing and its used regulary.


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## markturner (13 Mar 2011)

Out of interest why do most of you think that keeping it " warts and all" is better than making look like it should do if had not been neglected over time? 

I appreciate everyone has their opinion and a lot of this is subjective. Personally, I hate tarnish, rust, dents, scratches and dull finishes on things. I have always kept my tools obsessively clean, and I guess this is the same.

I had a look at the spare parts site - the new Ray Isles adjusters look pretty nice, but I cant see how to remove the old one on my plane, without fabricating some kind of cranked screwdriver. Also, the new adjusters ( there is nothing wrong with mine actually) seem to fit differently, being surface mounted. have I got that right? 

The iron and cap iron are pretty good, I had a good old hone and polish today and they have come up pretty well. 

The article referenced was very helpful, from reading it seems mine is a "late model" type, from after the war, so thanks everyone for the input.

I know, I know, pictures.... will try and do some tomorrow, my camera is at work. 

Cheers, Mark


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## Dangermouse (13 Mar 2011)

Well,,,,, collectors of old rare planes like Norris prefer to have their planes in original condition showing their age and heritage of use. Not rough as rats but nicely cleaned and polished ( waxed ). If you do more to such a plane it nose dives in value. Thats it, if you don't mind that, then by all means do what ever you feel brings your plane up to the standard you want.


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## Richard T (14 Mar 2011)

I found these photos a while ago, I remember not from where or whom so apologies if they are anyone's watching, of a "new" Norris found still boxed and unused in a shop. 
By the price on the box it would be 1940s and the original finish on the steel is proved once and for all to be .....










Engine turned. :shock: 







I don't know how long this practice lasted, or how long the finish lasted but I'm guessing not long as this is the only one I have seen. 
So maybe the purest purist would have it re done ..... I wouldn't. A cigarette case maybe - a plane? Don't think so


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## Dangermouse (14 Mar 2011)

This also confirms the wood was painted black, a very interesting plane that, what a time warp !


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## jimi43 (14 Mar 2011)

> So maybe the purest purist would have it re done ..... I wouldn't. A cigarette case maybe - a plane? Don't think so



I'm thinking ugly it may be but rare, it probably is. 

Since I am not a Norris (or any other infill) "collector" (really guv...really!  ), I am no expert here...but my gut tells me there is a collector out there that would pay top dollar (currency intended) for an untouched example.....

Just a thought.... :wink: 

Jim


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## Alf (14 Mar 2011)

S'not rare, as far as I know; Norris offered it during the 50s, if their ads of the time are anything to go by. I'm not a big infill fan anyway, but a black painted, engine-turned Norris certainly isn't going to get the aesthetic sensibilities doing handstands of happiness...


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## Pvt_Ryan (14 Mar 2011)

It says £3.17 on the box so I'll give you £4 for it..


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## Richard T (14 Mar 2011)

Thinking about it, they went to the trouble of drawing in the effect on the box label so I guess they must have at least planned to engine turn quite a few. 
This is, after all, the period during which the company was coming to a halt so maybe it was just a last- ditch, mad, prettification idea.


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## markturner (14 Mar 2011)

Well, I wont be selling mine, it's for my personal useage and enjoyment, ( therefore I am not worried abouts its resale value) so I will press on with the "restoration" to get it looking nice. Especially as its not one of the earlier rosewood types, that are very desirable, I think it will be good to clean off the pitting marks, polish it up and redo the paint. 

I will put up some pictures to show you all the result. 

By the way, great forum you have here guys.

Cheers, Mark


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## CroppyBoy1798 (14 Mar 2011)

Mark, its your baby (or plane in this case ) so I say do as much work as is required to bring it back to useable condition that you are satisfied with, sounds as if it was in pretty bad nick and could have been a lot worse, how many old planes were simply left to rust away, too far gone to be of any use, at least you got it at a stage where it can be put back to good use. Its not going in a museum display case, nor wont be propped on a shelf for the rest of its life, sounds if if you want a servicable plane from it so in that case I'm all for cleaning, restoring etc. They're not particularly 'rare', nor will you be selling it, as you mentioned, so, I dont see what the problem is


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## AndyT (14 Mar 2011)

Richard,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is an engine turned finish. IIRC, engine turning is done on an ornamental lathe, and makes a very precise, geometrically perfect pattern, sometimes circular but more often with more complicated, 'planetary orbit' patterns.

The Norris finish looks more like the effect of using a very small power sanding disk, dotted down for a second, then moved on, making a series of light circular scratches. This would be fairly easy to reproduce, with a Dremel or similar. (I don't think I'd do it to a valuable and collectable plane though.)


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## Richard T (14 Mar 2011)

You're quite right Andy, it's more like mock engine turning. And I have done this easily with a dremel type thingy before, too easily - I wasn't trying to.

Mark, in my experience shiny steel stays rust free longer than blemished steel. If it does start to rust it's easier to deal with and will take a very thin film of oil that won't mess up wood so much. So if you do feel the urge to polish it up pretty, there is a practical justification to do so. 

If it were mine I would want to use it. So I would polish it up shiny and I would take the gunge off the wood. Even if it is beech I'd much prefer oiled beech than beech pretending to be something else disguised by gunge. 
From what you say about the good condition of the iron and adjuster I'm sure it will be a lovely and useful plane.


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## jimi43 (14 Mar 2011)

I am a firm believer in using tools rather than stuffing them in a museum or other collection just to admire and if the ones I get are going to be kept and are not useable as they are...I am the first to try to restore them (sympathetically)...but my raised eyebrows were more to do with the way this thread went.

First we had:



> Hi, I recently managed to buy a Norris number 5 infill type smoother. *Its in not bad condition*, but I would like it look better. T*he wood has been painted over with a gloss black finish* and the *metal sole and frame is in pretty good nick*. It still *works very nicely* however.
> 
> *Will I be reducing its value by restoring it* ? If I go ahead, is there any pointers anyone can give me



....which leads me to believe it is not only in good condition but useable and that you intended to sell it....(at some time or other) otherwise you wouldn't have asked about reducing its value....

Which was followed by excellent replies indicating that you should do enough to it to restore it to useable condition...with guidance of retaining its value.

After a number of these replies your next post was....



> Thanks for all the advice, *I have started polishing up the sides and sole* and the cap iron etc and its starting to look pretty nice.
> 
> There were some scratches and rougher patches on the paint, *if I decide to strip it and refinish it*, what would you recommend ? I t looks like it has several coats of laquer over the black finish. Is the black usually just paint or something else. i think the infill wood is lighter grain than rosewood, it looks more like beech or something like that.



...which (correct me if I am wrong...) means that you read the replies... then chose to do the opposite. :mrgreen: 

At the end of the day...even if it was the only one left on the planet...it is YOUR only one left on the planet and so you can do what you like with it....I just thought it rather strange that you would ask advice in the first place though!

ALL of mine were really bashed about and horrendously disfigured, abused and missing parts...so for me there is no choice if I want to use them. From your original post...yours sounded like it was virtually untouched barring a bit of surface rust...

Without pictures it is hard to imagine...and please don't think that I am being aggressive because that is far from being the case...I just found it rather strange the way this thread went (is going).

Whatever you decide to do with it...I wish you luck and I know you will have a fine user plane which will outlive you and probably your sons!

In any case...none of us believe you have it until you show us pictures! That's the rule! :mrgreen: 

Cheers mate

Jim


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## AndyT (15 Mar 2011)

Well said!


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## Blister (15 Mar 2011)

Pvt_Ryan":3d2h1tao said:


> It says £3.17 on the box so I'll give you £4 for it..



Thats 

£3. 17 shillings and 6d 

about 

In 1950, £3 17s 6d would have the same spending worth of today's £88.27 

conversion from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/curr ... ts.asp#mid


:wink: 

hands up who remembers £ shillings and pence 

Me :roll:


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## Pvt_Ryan (15 Mar 2011)

Blister":380erd0d said:


> Pvt_Ryan":380erd0d said:
> 
> 
> > It says £3.17 on the box so I'll give you £4 for it..
> ...




True but £4 (back then) was still more than £3 17s 6d..  I just (intentionally) choose to neglect inflation.

Shillings were before my time but I still remember getting them as change from the shops (by mistake)


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## Harbo (15 Mar 2011)

I have to dispute the relative plane values.
Back in 1950 the average wage for a Labourer was £5 (I could not find a Tradesman's rate) and from a Google source £4 is equivalent to £300 at today's money?
I was always led to believe that back in the old days, quality tools cost as much as a weeks wage so I think £4 was a lot of money back then?

Here's my small set of infills, cleaned up, waxed, sharpened and put to use:

















The A5 has a Ray Iles blade fitted by him to fit the mouth. The Spiers has an American one (cannot remember his name - not Hock?) which I ordered to fit the A5, the maker cocked it up but it fits the Spiers. A1- original Norris iron.
I suppose I could remove all the varnish from the A5 but again I am not trying to make them look like new?

Rod


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## jimi43 (15 Mar 2011)

Now I've seen your Spiers bun...and armed with the knowledge gained since the day I got mine...I think I will redo my bun...






I hadn't quite got the grasp of infill overlap...as you can see...but it was far better than when I picked it up...






...where it was filled with some softwood...a long while ago but softwood none-the-less!

Mine doesn't have "Spiers Ayr" on the lever cap but I think it is one...

For £20 I ain't gonna puppy about it!  

Any chance of a close-up of your lever cap on the Spiers one Rod?

If you remember rightly....I had a hell of a job identifying this old lady...






Until I read the lever cap upside down...






It's really strange that....

Jim


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## Harbo (15 Mar 2011)

Jim what part of it are you interested in - will a full frontal do?

Rod


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## jimi43 (15 Mar 2011)

Harbo":j8hietej said:


> Jim what part of it are you interested in - will a full frontal do?
> 
> Rod



Yes mate...but just of the logo on the lever cap if you have one.

Jim


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## markturner (15 Mar 2011)

here is some pictures:
















Dont think I am unheeding ( or ungrateful) of the advice , I just want the plane to look as nice as it can and I hate the signs of neglect such as pitting and bad finish.


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## mtt.tr (15 Mar 2011)

Thats nothing that is well tidy maybe the infil could do with some dye but other than that i would be happy


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## Harbo (15 Mar 2011)

Jim I have enlarged my original photo - it says "Spiers Ayr"

Let me know if you want more?






Rod


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## CroppyBoy1798 (15 Mar 2011)

Nice looking plane Mark!! Having seen the pictures though I'm not totally sure that the nice shinet body, iron/cap iron and brass cap fit with the rather battered looking infills, just an opinion. Have you any plans with what to do with them?


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## Richard T (16 Mar 2011)

Looks fab Mark. The best thing for those infills is to polish 'em up with use; that's proper patina IMHO. A base of linseed then blood, sweat and tears.
I like what you've done with the sides too - quick wipe over with a (slightly) oily rag every now and then and they will last forever.
Now don't leave us hanging, how does it cut???


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## mtt.tr (16 Mar 2011)

Yep they look great when the infills polish with use


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## jimi43 (16 Mar 2011)

Yes that's fine Rod....it is the same as my lever cap but mine is upside down!






For some reason...one of the previous owners has tried to obliterate it.

I have seen one old one that is upside down....you can read it as you look at it.

Hi Mark

That looks like beech, used to replace exotic tropical woods. It would have been stained to look like rosewood or ebony or (it would appear), painted black. I have to admit, I have never seen the black painted ones. I quite like beech but I like it stained. 

It should look like new if you do that and then put some Tru-Oil on it. It is really lovely to handle...my favourite finish and used on gunstocks.

It may be the angle but the mouth looks huge...any shots from underneath?

Jim

Jim


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## AndyT (16 Mar 2011)

Mark, this is just my opinion, and it's obviously too late for you, but I think Harbo's planes look 'honest' - good usable condition, but looking aged by long use. The steel parts patinated by contact with the user's hands, the brass parts nicely dulled down. I think that's the ideal state for planes of this age and quality.
But your plane looks naked. If I was looking for one, I wouldn't buy it. 

Maybe if you start using it, and keep on using it, it will settle down after a century or so.

This is all worlds away from taking a beaten up old Stanley and making it look like a new L-N.

It would be nice to see some before pictures.


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## bugbear (16 Mar 2011)

jimi43":mmdw4qni said:


> For some reason...one of the previous owners has tried to obliterate it.



More likely either a reseller ("OEM"), or possibly a second.

BugBear


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## Alf (16 Mar 2011)

I reckon it'll only take a few years to recover; the brass'll go much quicker. As long as you don't keep polishing the poor thing. Alternatively, perhaps you might as well go the whole hog now, Mark, and repaint the infills. Should think the shiny brass and black paint will make it look pretty striking, but then you will have to look after it to keep it looking good.


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## jimi43 (16 Mar 2011)

I'm firmly in your camp Andy...but as we have seen many times before...for every person who has our view...there are ten that have Matt's view (or is it the other way around :wink: ) and a collector would probably be screaming "NOOOOOOOO" by now....as it clearly looks like it was a good example "before".

I think naked beech looks aweful and would need staining as I said above...and if you are not selling it, then only you will be looking at it each day and it will eventually patinate...

This is a really interesting topic as clearly, that is what it would have looked like out of the box.

I think I fall in the middle camp, as I am just as much against the "pristine, untouched, original, never use it, put-it-in-a-glass-cabinet" brigade as I am against the "polish the a*rse off it with a wire wheel" camp.

I agree with Andy....I like Harbo's examples....unfortunately...mine usually done come that way in the first place!

Jim


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## jimi43 (16 Mar 2011)

bugbear":2w9ci2gm said:


> jimi43":2w9ci2gm said:
> 
> 
> > For some reason...one of the previous owners has tried to obliterate it.
> ...



I don't think so BB...I found another example and I will have to dig it up but apparently this is quite an early one...there is one in Australia that recently surfaced although he paid a tad more than £1.50 for his!

..............................................................................................................................

EDIT UPDATE....here it is...in my old thread (homer) #-o DOH!







I just wish I could do my own name like that one! :shock: 

...........................................................................................................................

The sole on this one was like Alton Towers....and totally unuseable...even though the mouth was tight with a 3mm replacement iron. This is one area where I think it is ok to lap it if you are going to use it and I fail to see how it would devalue it....it's not a bleedin' vase after all.

It makes lovely shavings now and I use it all the time for more exotic wood....






....but I stopped at just cleaning the sap from the sides and left the finger "dents" as part of the other SOUL....

Even though it looks like a brick...it drives really well!

Jim


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## mtt.tr (16 Mar 2011)

i agree with andy too. My norris is how it i recieved cared for but looks used (cabinet maker finish) 



Also when set up these planes are just great


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## markturner (17 Mar 2011)

Regarding the wood, I am undecided - I am not sure how the stained and marked beech will look if I use linseed oil and wax for example, although that kind of finish would be my preference rather than the laquered black ebonised finish. Hmmmmmm...


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## Richard T (17 Mar 2011)

It's your plane .... it's you who will be using it ....
Patinas on steel are all very fine and distinguished but one spot of rust (as a plane in regular use is prone to) and you have a major conservation crisis all over again.
And personally, I don't like varnish or lacquer on any handles that my hands are going to be rubbing around and :evil: paint :evil: would be an absolute horror.


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## Waka (17 Mar 2011)

Ah, I see someone has dragged up the pic's of my unused Norris. Still unused and it its box, I do have another that I do use along with my S&S's




Richard T":3k6a4xdx said:



> I found these photos a while ago, I remember not from where or whom so apologies if they are anyone's watching, of a "new" Norris found still boxed and unused in a shop.
> By the price on the box it would be 1940s and the original finish on the steel is proved once and for all to be .....
> 
> 
> ...


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## jimi43 (17 Mar 2011)

Can we see your S&Ss please WAKA...and your Norris...if we say pretty please.

You know I am a glutton for tool eye-candy!

Jim


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## Richard T (18 Mar 2011)

Here's the router I bought the other week - beech handles, covered in Record varnish, varnish paired off with chisel, boiled linseed applied - looks good to me.


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## markturner (18 Mar 2011)

If I go for the stained and oiled finish, do you think I should use a natural dark stain first, (wire wool in vinegar) and then put boiled linseed oil on? Should I use any kind of sealer first? After the linseed oile, some wax and a nice buff up? 

Cheers, Mark


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## jimi43 (18 Mar 2011)

I would be tempted to stain with a red mahogany...if you like I will mix you some powder up to match a rosewood effect and drop it in the post. You then only have to apply a protective coat..I would use button polish or garnet polish on a makeup pad (cotton wool with lint free cloth either side you get from Boots in stacks). 

You can test the colour right down deep in the mouth cavity on the front bun or bed and it won't show if you get it slightly wrong.

PM me your address if you want me to help you with this...I can test the colour on beech I have here and photograph it to show you

Hope this helps....

Jim


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## Waka (18 Mar 2011)

Waka":38fo4eeb said:


> Ah, I see someone has dragged up the pic's of my unused Norris. Still unused and it its box, I do have another that I do use along with my S&S's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Waka (18 Mar 2011)

jimi43":2ft77rup said:


> Can we see your S&Ss please WAKA...and your Norris...if we say pretty please.
> 
> You know I am a glutton for tool eye-candy!
> 
> Jim



Certainly can Jim but it will have to be on Monday as I'm off on a little break soon. It'll give you time to think about the candy.


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## jimi43 (18 Mar 2011)

Ok WAKA...I will look forward to that!

Jim


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## jimi43 (18 Mar 2011)

Just put some stain together and tested on "clean" beech...






Might be a bit too much red...what do you think?

Obviously it will need some shine...button polish would probably be best or Tru-Oil if you like touching that stuff...personally I love it but it ain't cheap!

If you want me to mix some up I can do it tomorrow and stick the powder in a little bag and all you have to do is mix it slowly with meths.

Jim


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## markturner (21 Mar 2011)

Hi Jimi, that looks pretty nice, although always tricky until you see it in real life.. If its no trouble I would certainly like to try it. I am pretty much decided that I am not going to do it black like it was before, I agree it would be nice if you could see the old wood and the various marks and stains etc that are in it. I want to have a nicely textured smooth natural look, but would not mind the wood being somewhat darker than it is "au naturel"....I have some boiled linseed oil as well, but no real experience of different finishes. The stain would go on first, then the oile and then what, buff off and some wax? 

Cheers, Mark


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## jimi43 (22 Mar 2011)

Hi Mark

I sent you a pack of powder stain mixed up to the formula I use for beech handles on Stanley/Record planes...in the post today.

I had some mix left over so decided to fix up the last of my Stanleys not to have the restoration treatment today to ensure that I had got the mix right before you commit it to the Norris.

Here is the result on the front knob....






I need to wait for the first seal coat to dry and then apply more polish...buff and then wax later but you get the idea.

If this is the look on beech that you are after...then the powder you have will do the job. Just follow instruction sent on applying it and build up the colour and let dry before you attempt to seal it with anything.

Cheers mate..

Jim


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## AndyT (23 Mar 2011)

A quick footnote on dates: 

Richard guessed at 1940s for the Norris plane in the box. I've just found an advert in the Woodworker for March 1951 showing the very same plane at the same price.

Sorry no camera or scanner available at the moment, but the picture is exactly the same, and the text just says 

Norris London
Tools with a Tradition
since 1860 NORRIS has supplied the craftsman with fine tools

and gives the same price - £3 17s 6d and an address in Croydon.


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## jimi43 (23 Mar 2011)

Must have been one of the very last Andy....

This from an article on "The Best Things" website....



> However, planes made after the late 1920s are decidedly less "finished" than the earlier planes. By the end of the 1930s, Norris planes were being made in a shed behind the house of Thomas Norris's daughter. After the war, the Norris name and designs were sold to an aeronautical instrument manufacturer looking to diversify away from military production. These planes are the so called "late model "Norris." Some time in the early 1950s, these planes were also discontinued.



But by far the best article and something also interesting...that price of £3 17s 6d....seems to be the stock value then...even in 1946...

The Norris Story by Tony Murland

Jim


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## Alf (23 Mar 2011)

Very likely the advert here, I imagine.


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## AndyT (23 Mar 2011)

Yep. That one - page 7.
Thanks Alf!


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## mtt.tr (23 Mar 2011)

Great man tony murland


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## markturner (3 Apr 2011)

here are some pictures of the finished article. The stain has not taken a deeply as I would have liked on the sides, but the finish is nice , I used Renwax over the stain. I think she looks and feels pretty good. 

















Cheers, mark


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## Richard T (4 Apr 2011)

Looks good to me Mark.... long may it serve you.


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## Henry Disston (4 Apr 2011)

That is really, really nice. And here I thought I had gotten over infill envy.


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## Setch (4 Apr 2011)

Lovely!


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## jimi43 (7 Apr 2011)

That worked out really well mate....next time go for a "non rub" seal first then you won't rub out the stain. Personally, I think that has helped you immensely with the finish as it doesn't look so "new" rather like it is worn by constant wear at key points!

Enjoy her for many years to come

Jim


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## markturner (9 Apr 2011)

Thanks for all the nice comments, i have certainly learned a lot from doing this and from all your helpfull comments. Cheers, mark


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