# Attaching to an old church



## WoodchipWilbur (28 Aug 2021)

I look after an old church (bits go back to c. 950). I have made a set of interprative boards (200mm wide x 400mm tall) mounted on 3mm foam board and they need fixing to (mainly) stone pillars. It is clearly crucial that nothing is done that will damage the fabric of the place though I think I would get away with a picture-hook pin, driven into the lime mortar that is used.

It would be helpful if at least some of them could be easily lifted off if a board is thought to be "disturbing" during a service - so I don't want to attach them permanently.

My current thought is to use (where possible) the aforementioned picture hook pins without the actual hook part and a small picture hanging D-ring, attached to the foam board with some duct tape. 

Is there a better solution?


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## Blackswanwood (28 Aug 2021)

I would be thoughtful about the duct tape failing and a board deciding to drop off at a quiet moment or solemn moment during a service. You can perhaps use a piece of wire that goes through 5he foam board to form a loop?

If you don’t want to put pins in the wall the only alternatives I can think of are sticky velcro pads or a strap that goes around the pillar. I think though I would go with the pin.

Cheers


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## Argus (28 Aug 2021)

Free-standing mini-lectern type stands, about chest height that could be folded away into a corner?
I know, I know....... more work!


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## Essex Barn Workshop (28 Aug 2021)

I'd have thought command hooks would be ideal. Can be used without any damage:


https://command.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/command-gb/how-to/how-to-hang-picture-without-nails/


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## Jacob (28 Aug 2021)

Hang them on cords which either go around, or in between columns, or descend from a higher fixing point (if possible)?


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## Droogs (28 Aug 2021)

Give the notice boards a stronger back and attach some D hoops, then mount using bungie cords - easy removal when needed and hidden behind the boards


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## WoodchipWilbur (28 Aug 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> I would be thoughtful about the duct tape failing and a board deciding to drop off at a quiet moment or solemn moment during a service. You can perhaps use a piece of wire that goes through 5he foam board to form a loop?
> 
> If you don’t want to put pins in the wall the only alternatives I can think of are sticky velcro pads or a strap that goes around the pillar. I think though I would go with the pin.
> 
> Cheers


I don't think that the duct tape (actually, I'll use the better Gorilla Tape) is likely to fail on these light boards. And I am not hoping that these will outlast the pillars!



> I'd have thought command hooks would be ideal
> and...
> Hang them on cords which either go around, or in between columns
> and...
> Free-standing mini-lectern type stands



I'm not so sure. Command hooks look like they rely on being on a good, smooth surface. Our pillars are rather friable sandstone/millsone grit and I've found nothing yet that can both stay attached (you generally find it on the floor, covered with little grains of sand) and come off without leaving a residue. (On a good day, Blutak or something that moulds well to the uneven surface can work - but it is a real bind to get out, specially if it has been there a while. Besides, our DAC (Church Planning Permission Guys) are not at all keen on any sticky stuff!

On cords (or bungees, Droog) - a possibility for some -but (I *KNOW *I didn't say!) they are not all on free-standing pillars. Some are on buttresses - and some will be on plain walls (with, in some cases) a very poor, powdery painted surface.

I have given serious thought to the lectern idea. The trouble there is the congregation. I suspect that there will be comment as it is, about "all these signs, looking garish". I suspect that lecterns will increase that. In some cases, though, that may well be the solution - where there is no convenient wall or pillar.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far! A Plan Development this morning is, instead of buying D-hooks, it'll be as easy to make them from a bit of copper wire and the aforementioned Gorilla tape. They won't then flop about to make it difficult to relocate them on the masonry pin.


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## WoodchipWilbur (28 Aug 2021)

Argus said:


> Free-standing mini-lectern type stands, about chest height that could be folded away into a corner?
> I know, I know....... more work!


The problem with our church is that we HAVE no corners! The accumulation of all sorts of semi-discarded (no one in church will ever throw anything away) "stuff" is a major problem that I am battling with - and is the driver for these interpretation boards.


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## dizjasta (28 Aug 2021)

WoodchipWilbur said:


> The problem with our church is that we HAVE no corners! The accumulation of all sorts of semi-discarded (no one in church will ever throw anything away) "stuff" is a major problem that I am battling with - and is the driver for these interpretation boards.


If you have a look on Ebay uk you will find plastic strapping kits which would allow secure fixing to columns. Wire hangers could be used to suspend your boards. No drilling or gluing to structure.


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## WoodchipWilbur (28 Aug 2021)

dizjasta said:


> If you have a look on Ebay uk you will find plastic strapping kits which would allow secure fixing to columns. Wire hangers could be used to suspend your boards. No drilling or gluing to structure.


... but the point is that any sort of strapping round a pillar isn't an option. One "pillar" is, in fact, a half-pillar emeging from a wall. Another one is an amalgamation of stonework that must measure some 10+ metres around. Some signs will go in a space where there are no pillars. 
I did say:


> they are not all on free-standing pillars. Some are on buttresses - and some will be on plain walls


Add to that, those pillars that could be used are quatrefoil in section (the shape you'd get by laying five circles together.) The strapping of whatever sort would bridge across that and be quite a no-no.

I've been thinking a fair bit today - and all sorts of suggestions on here have been really helpful. One or two of the signs will go on a simple lectern (or blackboard easel) as there's nowhere obvious to put them otherwise. The rest will hang on the little masonry nails I mentioned originally. The DAC are reasonably relaxed about the lime mortar indoors. The hole will be unnoticeable if the pin comes out.



I have made a set of 15 copper rings (from 1mm electric cable), soldered together and fitted with a Gorilla tape pad. Monday will see me with a hammer and nails. I shan't tell the DAC.


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## baldkev (28 Aug 2021)

May God forgive you


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## WoodchipWilbur (29 Aug 2021)

baldkev said:


> May God forgive you


I would like to think that He would. 
We are in the early stages of a huge amount of work to save this Grade 1 listed building, set in an iconic position. We have a funding bid in that will (if we get it) allow us to spend £400k+ on repairing some of the roof - but even if we get that, the survival of the building with a dwindling congregation and a history of "apartness" from our community (partly geography - we are away from the main centre of population - and partly management - the church is locked and unavailable), depends on opening up and welcoming people. We have a huge tourism/pilgrim potential.
I am in close touch with the DAC - we correspond, probably, on a weekly basis. The DAC secretary is a person I would class as one of my friends. They know and are encouraging the work that we are doing. After years of working professionally with church furnishing, I know what the DAC get excited about and what they don't. 
However, there are some small things like a few picture hook nails that they will be grateful for not having them, as it were, thrust down their throats.
I don't anticipate roasting in eternal damnation or - worse - standing at the Bar at a Consistory Court.


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## whatknot (29 Aug 2021)

For a number of signs & clocks I have made, including some slate ones which are obvious heavier than wood, I use epoxy adhesive, not had one fail yet, for light ones I use bias binding glued in a loop, for others either a saw tooth hanger, and the heavier ones I made some brackets out of angle plates, all epoxy glued on the back, all would hang on a pin


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## jimchelt (29 Aug 2021)

Just s thought...small, neodymium magnet epoxied to a pillar the painted to match. Might that work and be acceptable?


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## RichardG (29 Aug 2021)

I've found this style of hook to be reliable plus don't represent a spike hazzard when the board is removed. When removed completely the 4 small pin holes are hardly visible and disappear with a bit of paint. The short pins represent no risk to the core building fabric just a few mm of plaster.


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## WoodchipWilbur (29 Aug 2021)

RichardG said:


> I've found this style of hook to be reliable plus don't represent a spike hazzard when the board is removed. When removed completely the 4 small pin holes are hardly visible and disappear with a bit of paint. The short pins represent no risk to the core building fabric just a few mm of plaster.
> View attachment 116673


but... As there is no plaster, the pins will all need to fit into a narrow mortar course between the stones. It is possible that the smalles of these would fit some of the courses but these are mostly around the 5mm width. I hope to put a few up tomorrow - I'll post pix of how they go.


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## WoodchipWilbur (29 Aug 2021)

jimchelt said:


> Just s thought...small, neodymium magnet epoxied to a pillar the painted to match. Might that work and be acceptable?


Can't paint the stonework!


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## baldkev (29 Aug 2021)

I was just messing about, I'm not in the slightest bit religious. I did hear of a local church that may get closed due to no one going there and it needing a new roof, so I emailed the c.of.e to see if they want to sell ( it'd make me a fantastic house, apart from all the dead people in the garden )..... no response though


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## WoodchipWilbur (29 Aug 2021)

baldkev said:


> I was just messing about, I'm not in the slightest bit religious. I did hear of a local church that may get closed due to no one going there and it needing a new roof, so I emailed the c.of.e to see if they want to sell ( it'd make me a fantastic house, apart from all the dead people in the garden )..... no response though


 No worries!! 
C of E would not be the right folk to contact about buying a redundant church. You can imagine that, being C of E, the whole thing is girt about by legislation that makes the Domesday Book (in which St Andrew's is featured) look like a racy novella. But these things would be dealt with at a more local level - at most, at Diocesan level (That's the churchy equivalent of a county). And yes, the graves would be a problem. People (living ones) get very possessive of "their" graves. St A's would *not *make any sort of Des Res, I think...


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## jimchelt (29 Aug 2021)

Paint the magnets
to match the stonework.


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## WoodchipWilbur (29 Aug 2021)

jimchelt said:


> Paint the magnets
> to match the stonework.


This whole idea is interesting. 

1) If I start epoxying *anything *to stonework, someone is going to start having a hissy fit. The attachment is going to have to be into the mortar. 

2) I have some 3mm dia neodymium magnets that I had toyed with using - but, as the mortar joints are recessed from the face of the uneven stonework, it would not be possible to get them to stick out far enough to engage with another magnet on the back of the board (reminder: these are foam board panels. They weigh in at under 150g). 

3) It might be possible to use them in some locations, but, if they are so neat and invisible as they could possibly be made, once they are detached, few people would be able to put them back up again as they would never find the right spot!!

I suspect that this is a case where, the more high-tech you go, the more collateral problems you introduce. I can make sure that the small nail heads are placed where they are unlikely (I'm the H&S guy - I'll never say "never"!) to cause a problem. The "technology" is plain and obvious to any cleaner or visitor who detaches one and there's little to go wrong mechanically. These boards have to appear just to "be there" with no visible means of support and that achieves it.


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## Droogs (29 Aug 2021)

baldkev said:


> I was just messing about, I'm not in the slightest bit religious. I did hear of a local church that may get closed due to no one going there and it needing a new roof, so I emailed the c.of.e to see if they want to sell ( it'd make me a fantastic house, apart from all the dead people in the garden )..... no response though


Church of Scotland does this all the time


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## baldkev (29 Aug 2021)

Droogs said:


> Church of Scotland does this all the time



How cheap is that???? A single garage here would cost more!!!


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## Trainee neophyte (30 Aug 2021)

I doubt the following is going to help your current conundrum, but I was rather taken by this as a design concept :





Handmade Tripod Ladder


Handmade Tripod Ladder




www.quickcrop.ie





I like how it folds flat when not in use (and not ugly if on display): my initial plan is for a clothes dryer using the same style - I'm sick and tired of the appallingly cheap, nasty Chinese metal and plastic monstrosities that inevitably fall apart every six weeks. Perhaps as lecterns, easels, display stands etc the same approach may also work? You may even want a step ladder. 3 sticks and some hinges - how hard could it be?


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## Stuart Moffat (30 Aug 2021)

i Never thought I’d be writing something like this, but oddly I have a lot of relevant experience of dealing with quirky problems of fixing much heavier stuff to the walls and pillars of quite a few of the nations treasured grade 1 buildings, be they cathedrals concert halls or university college chapels and ding rooms. In one this month I was asked to fix two video cameras (for streaming concerts and services) to very old black marble pillars that I could strap round the back. For these I made a pair of wooden mounts with a back that catered for the radius of the pillar , and neoprene stuck to the wooden mount. I then put slots through the back to accommodate a pair of very long black cable ties. 9mm x 1400mm and with a very adequate breaking strain.
I also was asked to fix another pair of cameras to a pair of pillars that are part of a cluster that you can’t strap round the back (which sound a bit like your problem). Crucially with mine, each one is more than half a circle, so at the moment I am making a clamp that will go past the half way point, and a pivot point behind the camera a bit like a pair of scissors,and again padded with neoprene. I mostly permitted to fix into mortar joints of any age, but would always steer clear of any form of adhesive.


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## John Brown (30 Aug 2021)

Small drones.


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## YoungSalt (31 Aug 2021)

Well, you have two options which would leave the stonework and fabric of the church completely undamaged. First off,Tying a chord around the pillar, then hanging the board off the chord. Secondly, stick on velcro.


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## John Brown (31 Aug 2021)

Can't you just pray to god to keep them suspended? Seems like the obvious answer...


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## WoodchipWilbur (31 Aug 2021)

YoungSalt said:


> Well, you have two options which would leave the stonework and fabric of the church completely undamaged. First off,Tying a chord around the pillar, then hanging the board off the chord. Secondly, stick on velcro.



Suggestions are all beginning to tend towards the bizarre!

Young Salt, I'm sure you've read this thread through, so you'll know that "chords" (we have plenty of those - but they come, mainly from the organ!) are not an option. As I work round the church, so far, I've found only two spots where these will go onto straightforward free-standing pillars. I _could _use cords around these - but they would be a 360-degree eyesore - and as I am trying to keep these interpretation boards away from the main worship space, then they will introduce a distraction. That's two of them. The other 18 or so will still need a different solution.

You'll also read that glue of any sort is a basic no-no. Adhesive Velcro is for smooth intact surfaces. It is rubbish on a rough friable stone face - so it would have to be backed up with some form of glue. And we don't do that.

As I wrote on Sunday (I think), I am, for most of them, using small masonry nails in the lime mortar and hanging them direct. It is the simplest, cheapest, least obtrusive way. At least one will be on a blackboard easel type stand as there's no suitable wall - but as the whole point of all this work is to remove clutter, I want to introduce as little more-clutter in its place as possible.


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## Cabinetman (31 Aug 2021)

If there is a place where there isn’t too much mortar between stones how about a piece of wood attached to the back of the foamboard that is slightly tapered and then knock that tightly in between the stones. Ian
Edit, you will have to make each piece individually to fit the position.


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## WoodchipWilbur (31 Aug 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> If there is a place where there isn’t too much mortar between stones how about a piece of wood attached to the back of the foamboard that is slightly tapered and then knock that tightly in between the stones. Ian


Good plan - but I don't think there's anywhere like that - at least, not where I want an interpretation board! All the joints are well pointed with a good lime mortar. The nails are doing good!


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

WoodchipWilbur said:


> ..... I _could _use cords around these - but they would be a 360-degree eyesore - .......


You could use nice chords - think dressing gowns, pom-poms, ecclesiastical purple?


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## WoodchipWilbur (31 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> You could use nice chords - think dressing gowns, pom-poms, ecclesiastical purple?


...but they'd still be cords, not chords!

All sorts of ropey-type things would be possible - but read my lips!! 
1) There are only two out of some 20 or so that* could *be tied in this way
2) I am trying to make the fixings invisible, not MORE visible (though pretty)

I _have _a ropewalk. I _make _cordage - and could turn out things in all manner of colours or patterns (in the different liturgical colours or whatever). But such a solution just doesn't fall within this brief.


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Spell it how you like! 
What about coir boys holding bits of coir rope?
Seems to me that you have rejected all possible options and now looking for a miracle?


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## WoodchipWilbur (31 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Spell it how you like!
> What about coir boys holding bits of coir rope?
> Seems to me that you have rejected all possible options and now looking for a miracle?


No... I haven't rejected all options! I have carefully read all comments. I have taken on board a number of suggestions. I have modified what I had planned in the light of those.

In my original post, I said,


> My current thought is to use (where possible) the aforementioned picture hook pins without the actual hook part and a small picture hanging D-ring, attached to the foam board with some duct tape.
> 
> Is there a better solution?


After a thorough and useful discussion, it became clear that the answer is basically, "No, there's not any much better solution to this particular problem than the one already suggested."

I therefore decided to go ahead with that totally unmiraculous option. I said on Saturday evening:


> I've been thinking a fair bit today - and all sorts of suggestions on here have been really helpful. One or two of the signs will go on a simple lectern (or blackboard easel) as there's nowhere obvious to put them otherwise. The rest will hang on the little masonry nails I mentioned originally. The DAC are reasonably relaxed about the lime mortar indoors. The hole will be unnoticeable if the pin comes out.


Perhaps I didn't make it clear then that this was the decision I had made - and that this seems to be the best way to go. But that *was *the desision I made and that *is *the way that I am already putting up those interpretation boards.

What I have tried to do is to engage with this discussion and to speak of why some solutions couldn't work. I know that your "choir boy" suggestion was not intended to be practical, any more than drones - but it, perhaps, shows that you've not grasped that these signs are nothing to to with services when people are around in church, but they are for those who come in during the week to look around this amazing building of ours. 

So thank you everybody! I have (as often) been educated and informed by a number of your comments and suggestions (recently I appreciated the magnets, the pyramid stepladder and Stuart's description of fixing things to pillars. Good to hear that he, too, is barred from adhesives!). But any further suggestions will be useful for future projects, but not this one...

(and I'll spell ropes, "cords" and music, "chords" because that is the correct way!)


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## Daniel2 (31 Aug 2021)

@Jacob - you're a very naughty boy !


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## Jester129 (1 Sep 2021)

Another one for the future - fishing line? It's strong and almost invisible (well, the thin stuff is).


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## WoodchipWilbur (1 Sep 2021)

Jester129 said:


> Another one for the future - fishing line? It's strong and almost invisible (well, the thin stuff is).


Indeed. I often use that for display set-up. For the sake of the history of this thread, here's a rough section of our pillars. Any monofil/tape/chord/cord/rope/dressing gown pompom etc around the pillar would span that gap and, because the info boards need to be at a reasonably child-friendly height, either the cord will be spanning a gap, just at a child-friendly height (and, yes, we have school assemblies in here!) or it will be around the pillar much higher - and the board left on a long string to waft around in the draughts (of which we have a plentiful stock).

However, there's one spot (nowhere near a pillar) where this might, actually, provide a solution. I've certainly GOT plenty of it! Thanks.


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## Droogs (1 Sep 2021)

How about clamps based around proportional calipers like below


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