# Chromium oxide bars, or not?



## swagman (6 Sep 2016)

Dated:11-15-2008

http://straightrazorplace.com/honing/28 ... s-not.html


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## swagman (6 Sep 2016)

I just placed an order for this product. http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Chr ... tml#SID=48

_100% pure chromium oxide mixed with a little oil to make the ultimate strop paste.

Rather than removing metal, stropping with chromium oxide smooths, polishes and refines the cutting edge; not unlike the effect water has on clay.

Chromium Oxide (Cr2O3 ) is a superfine, 0.3 micron, polycrystalline abrasive, it is the mineral that gives green polishing compound it’s colour. Most polishing compositions also include other minerals, but for purists like straight razor users, only the best will do.

For most people this 50 gram tub will be a lifetime’s supply._


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## profchris (6 Sep 2016)

Hmm. If it's not removing metal then it's doing something very clever indeed, probably at the atomic or subatomic level by rearranging the atoms of the blade without removing them. I think a Physics Nobel prize is in the works!


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## DTR (6 Sep 2016)

profchris":7g9zfdg4 said:


> Hmm. If it's not removing metal then it's doing something very clever indeed, probably at the atomic or subatomic level by rearranging the atoms of the blade without removing them. I think a Physics Nobel prize is in the works!



I was thinking the same :lol: It doesn't remove metal, but it's an abrasive?? Hmmmm.....


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Sep 2016)

I have visions of little green sub atomic men running around with sub atomic sledge hammers ... :lol:


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## matthewwh (6 Sep 2016)

It's a tricky one to explain.

From a shaving standpoint it's the difference between a close shave and one that is both comfortable and close. You can't see it, but you can certainly feel the difference.

Under a microscope the Cr2O3 particles look like little facetted balls - not dissimilar to the ceramic blocks used in a tumble polishing machine.

It is very hard stuff, 8.5 mohs, but on a strop it is loosely held so the particles are free to move and roll, like millions of tiny burnishers (as opposed to abrasive particles held securely in a substrate that cut the steel and produce a distinct pattern of grooves).


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## swagman (6 Sep 2016)

*Aluminum oxide fused with chrome oxide* is a pink abrasive that is used in grinding applications that require slightly more toughness than white fused aluminum oxide. The chrome oxide component of the abrasive enhances its grinding capacity. Although friable and cool cutting, aluminum oxide fused with chrome oxide exhibits strong form-holding characteristics. It is used for precision, broad surface and tool room grinding on hard alloy steels. 

http://americanmachinist.com/features/a ... -abrasives


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## swagman (6 Sep 2016)

The reason I posted this information;

I have recently extended my water stone media up to 12000 grit. To achieve an even greater level of polish on the cutting edge of my tools, I wanted to make sure that the Veritas Honing compound I have in my workshop, was able to provide me with that benefit. After further research, I reached a personal conclusion that the use of the Veritas compound after the 12000 grit stone, would actually degrade the level of polish I am already achieving with the 12,000 grit. What others choose to do with this information, is clearly a choice they need to make. In my own case, I have chosen to trial a different product.


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## matthewwh (6 Sep 2016)

I have heard that wiping back the slurry and doing a couple more passes with just clean water is the way to get the best finish on very fine waterstones. 

Caveat: I haven't tried it myself yet so I can't comment on whether it works, but I work on the principle that if you keep picking up ideas and trying them you occasionally find a nugget.


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## swagman (6 Sep 2016)

Matthew; trialling a new product is a journey worth exploring. 

Stewie;


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Sep 2016)

Not meaning to be rude, but what do you people who go to these extremes actually use the tools for? What tools? I can understand a degree of fanaticism from carvers, maybe, but that's it. And no, I don't want another sharpening thread. :?


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## swagman (6 Sep 2016)

If you don't want to be rude, why bother asking the question Philip.


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## memzey (6 Sep 2016)

Possibly because he's interested in finding out what the benefits to a woodworker are of such a level of sharpening? I'd certainly like to understand that a little better myself.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Sep 2016)

Stewie, it was a perfectly sensible, serious question. I'm not criticising anyone for doing it, I just wonder why it's done?


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## swagman (6 Sep 2016)

Phillip; the final honing media should polish the cutting edge, without forming any noticeable wire edge.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Sep 2016)

Yes, I know what does ... I just wonder why doing it to that degree is worthwhile.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2016)

A bare strop removes wire edge particles in a drawing stroke, or faff from the edge in a leading stroke. That is still true on a razor that's been honed with very light pressure on 0.5 micron graded chrome oxide pigment. 

Your statement above about the formax wax stick that LV sells (and many others, it's not "veritas" compound, it is the same microfine formax compound sold by several other places, too) degrading the edge from a "12k" stone is incorrect. It will substantially improve the edge from the guangxi hones (I have three of them and have had four, total, and have had microfine compound both from LV and Rockler)

Also, none of the guangxi stones have a "12k" particle size to begin with. That's marketing. If you slurry them, the particles are 3 or 4 microns at the very best (comparing them to japanese stones where that particle size has been studied). There is no natural stone that I'm aware of that has particles smaller than 3 microns on any regular basis, and those are the finest of the japanese hones. 3 microns is the size of the alumina in the shapton professional 5,000 stone. the chinese stones work only to significant fineness when proper technique is applied because the larger particles don't cut as deep. 

It would have been better form to get the compound and trial it first and post results than to suppose something long in advance.

Plus, several here have already tried. It would've been even better form yet to just ask, then decide if you want to trial it and post the results. If you are looking for the ultimate in fineness, just order .09 micron iron oxide pigment from kremer pigments. It's not expensive, and it's likely going to leave smaller shallow scratches than anything else you can find. It will also be a waste of time, but so, too, is this whole exercise. Many of us have already wasted the time. Fine abrasives have been available for hundreds of years, but the only practical mention of these that I've found (for woodworking) are in carving manuals of old where someone may not have a fine stone.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2016)

phil.p":2baab9jv said:


> Yes, I know what does ... I just wonder why doing it to that degree is worthwhile.



You could win a "most transient initial sharpness" contest, maybe.


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## swagman (6 Sep 2016)

David; stop being so childish.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Sep 2016)

He did at least attempt an answer.  I retired defeated.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2016)

phil.p":88lkcy5r said:


> He did at least attempt an answer.  I retired defeated.



If it's clarity and brevity and a tangible conclusion that you want, you'll never get it


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## matthewwh (6 Sep 2016)

It's just an extension of the answer you would give if someone asked you "why do you sharpen your tools?"

A sharper edge requires less effort / pressure to push it through the wood, the less pressure you need the more control you have. It isn't necessary all the time, but in situations where you need a lot of control or are working in very hard timbers, having a very sharp edge really does help. 

Once you have availed yourself of the kit and techniques to achieve really sharp edges you start doing it all the time because it's not really any extra effort. 

Then you start finding the limits of different steel compositions and heat treatments, and start to get just a little bit geeky about the whole thing. 

Before you know it you're on here discussing the shape of chromium oxide particles with people on the other side of the planet.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2016)

I guess the follow-on question then is what situations in most work really require it. I'm not heckling, I shave every morning with a straight razor and have been so far down this road that my bench has in it tenth micron diamonds in it and .09 micron iron oxide from kremer pigments. 

but I found that the ideal situation for razors is actually a genuine linen and broken in horse butt (cordovan is fine, and works sooner than horse butt, but the ultimate result after broken in for both is the same), right off of a stone. The edge cuts hair just as easily, but has less bite on skin, and so all of my pigments and bits and bobs sit.

I spent the weekend dimensioning wood, and capped it off in the evening sawing 4/4 out of 8/4 (when your wood stock gets desperate, you do this kind of thing - I needed 1.75" rails for a wide kitchen cabinet, but I have no 4/4 stock remaining long enough), and then finishing the remnants off after thicknessing them (by hand of course). 

I used a cheap smiths oilstone (but one that they call hard, though it's not nearly as fine as a true hard) and I chased off the wire edge with a cheap piece of jasper. The two cost $25 together. 

This wood would cause a beginner fits to plane. The equalizer was the cap iron. I still have all of the expensive sharpening stuff, but when the sweat starts, simple is the order. I use the same setup for paring and carving chisels, with the exception of using slips when necessary, except I usually use a better stone in place of the smiths, I just wanted to try the bargain stone for curiosity. It's usually a washita. 

https://s13.postimg.org/6f3n5bpxj/IMG_2 ... 2520_1.jpg

https://s16.postimg.org/v9xwg7ktx/IMG_2 ... 7604_1.jpg

And the level of finish off of an 11" board that I also resawed by hand (from the cheap oilstone) - sorry about the quality of the picture - I think the phones have software in them that prevents them from wanting to see reflection or glare on anything and it makes it very hard to see the reflection and focus on the wood as we would with naked eyes:

https://s15.postimg.org/51mhte7zf/IMG_2 ... 5780_1.jpg

(doing this work would've been a holy terror in my formative days where I refused to use anything that wasn't at least shapton 15k pro sharpened, and I didn't know how to set a cap iron)


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## No skills (6 Sep 2016)

I think everybody has their own trigger point for diminishing returns no matter what the subject or task.

I find the odd thread like this interesting reading (from a barbaric wood murderers perspective), I have a bar of green possibly non-descript polishing compound being delivered this week - a first for me but boring humdrum for others.


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## D_W (6 Sep 2016)

No skills":2a49juk3 said:


> I have a bar of green possibly non-descript polishing compound being delivered this week - a first for me but boring humdrum for others.



We've all gotta see it for ourselves and in person. Me included!


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## No skills (6 Sep 2016)

Yes indeed. Human nature.

8)


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## Biliphuster (6 Sep 2016)

profchris":3em5j8bu said:


> Hmm. If it's not removing metal then it's doing something very clever indeed, probably at the atomic or subatomic level by rearranging the atoms of the blade without removing them. I think a Physics Nobel prize is in the works!



Some polishing compounds work by chemical action, for example Cerium oxide is commonly used to polish glass and works by partially dissolving the surface of the glass which will smooth out ridges and bumps.. Colloidal silica is another common polishing media that works at least partly chemically.

I agree the Chromium oxide is probably only acting as an abrasive but this is not true for all polishing compounds.


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## matthewwh (6 Sep 2016)

There are several factors involved in hand planing other than just having a sharp iron, on reversing grain a steep effective pitch, achieved by whatever means, is at least as significant a factor as edge condition. This makes it a poor example of a situation where sharpness itself is critical.

Paring endgrain with a chisel is the traditional example of a situation where a sharper edge is desirable, indeed the ability to pare softwood endgrain cleanly without separating the fibres is often used as an imperfect measure or means of comparing sharpness.


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## profchris (7 Sep 2016)

Biliphuster":11itsi48 said:


> profchris":11itsi48 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm. If it's not removing metal then it's doing something very clever indeed, probably at the atomic or subatomic level by rearranging the atoms of the blade without removing them. I think a Physics Nobel prize is in the works!
> ...



I had to look up colloidal silica, which seems to work in part by reacting with the thing being polished to form a compound which is easily rubbed off. But that's removing material, as is the glass example, though not by abrasion as you say. 

I couldn't think of any way to polish without removing material.


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## jlawford (7 Sep 2016)

Veritas green honing compound works great. 1200 grit diamond stone straight to a leather strop with compound rubbed on. You can see carbon from the steel and fine reflective flecks of burr in the leather. Diamond gets the edge, hinting polishes and refines.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2016)

matthewwh":1281qzcd said:


> There are several factors involved in hand planing other than just having a sharp iron, on reversing grain a steep effective pitch, achieved by whatever means, is at least as significant a factor as edge condition. This makes it a poor example of a situation where sharpness itself is critical.



that's correct, though certainly more important than just a steep effective pitch is being able to work it efficiently. Using a cap iron will do this efficiently. Anything else will take significantly longer and much more effort (because a lot of the work is rough work in quartered wood). 



> Paring endgrain with a chisel is the traditional example of a situation where a sharper edge is desirable, indeed the ability to pare softwood endgrain cleanly without separating the fibres is often used as an imperfect measure or means of comparing sharpness.



This is always given as an example, but the times we pare a show surface are fairly rare. Carving would be a good substitution. The sharpness needed to carve cleanly is pretty common in any finishing regimen, though. Autosol, compound, 3 micron stones, hard arkansas slips and a strop, etc. Most of the stuff that we pare, like tenon shoulders, is a bit of an exercise in force (often done faster malleting, anyway). 

I guess what I'm getting at is when we start to sweat, the wood show stuff falls by the wayside and what shows merit appears pretty quickly. For 80-90% of the planing, that's getting clearance quickly, and for most of the rest of it, it's uniformity with decent sharpness (but getting there quickly).


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## Andy Kev. (7 Sep 2016)

Genuine question: I've read that if you sharpen up into the higher thousands, the edge you achieve is good for a few passes of the plane then it goes into a slow decline during which it will continue to cut perfectly well. That seems fairly logical and so you rehone when experience tells you you need to or when you are finishing a piece of wood and you want the lovely surface that a newly sharpened blade gives (well that's my modus operandii, at least). So my question is: having identified the need or wish to use various compounds to achieve a super-duper sharp edge at the higher end of what is achievable, isn't the key question about how long that edge is retained while planing a particular type of wood (edge retention must vary from species to species)? 

Therefore if we have sharpened at, say 8,000, then used whatever oxide compound before working on e.g. cherry, don't we need a table where we can look up cherry against sharpening regime in order to find out that we can manage 12 passes before needing to rehone? Otherwise we have surely done no more than delay the slight dulling of the edge to what we could call normal working sharpness.

Or am I just theorising wildly?


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## AJB Temple (7 Sep 2016)

The Japanese knife aficionados use a diamond stropping solution that can be bought in a range of sizes down to 0.1 micron I believe. I was given some 0.3 micron diamond solution by a US friend (just because I expressed curiosity) but have been unable to ascertain any difference in edge sharpness as compared with my normal stropping method which uses a German made waxy stropping paste, on a leather strop. (Balsa is often used by the diamond solution people). 

I also have a 12000 water stone, (again just for interest) but going beyond around 8000 for a kitchen knife yields no benefit in my experience even for very fine sashimi knives. The razor guys may well have an entirely different perspective. I have never tried an open razor: too scared!


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## CStanford (7 Sep 2016)

.05 micron optical polishing powders, not sure if there's anything finer, if it's good enough (quality control, etc., etc.) for a $3MM electron microscope it'll work on $30 chisel:

https://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/pr ... plies.aspx

There's nothing more mission critical than polishing glass on very expensive optical devices.

Scroll down at the link; lots of interesting products - diamond pastes, sprays, other slurries in a huge variety of grit sizes.


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## woodpig (7 Sep 2016)

I doubt there are any products made specifically for honing. More likely they are just polishing compounds.

https://www.menzerna.com/products/solid ... steel/333/

http://www.thepolishingshop.co.uk/acata ... ar-p1.html


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## CStanford (7 Sep 2016)

If it's polish one is after, with very little cutting of metal (surely a little will take place no matter what), it seems to me one would find the absolute finest grit product available, of very high quality grade and without contamination, and be done with it. If it'll polish glass then it will put a shine on tool steel.

Why beat around the bush? What's the point in 'trialling' products that are coarser by multiples of 10 if not 100? Otherwise, and if you're of the type, it will be a constant nag on your conscience. What are you leaving on the table? It would be like a fly picking its own wings off - self flagellation.


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## D_W (7 Sep 2016)

woodpig":3kg9tyg5 said:


> I doubt there are any products made specifically for honing. More likely they are just polishing compounds.
> 
> https://www.menzerna.com/products/solid ... steel/333/
> 
> http://www.thepolishingshop.co.uk/acata ... ar-p1.html



There are progressive razor pastes made for honing razors without stones (by dovo). I don't think they'd be that practical, though. Four of the progression are abrasive, but only the finest is as fine as the things being discussed here.


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## Cheshirechappie (7 Sep 2016)

Out of passing interest, anybody know the particle size of Jeweller's Rouge? 

I know it's basically haematite - an oxide of iron - sometimes supplied as a powder, sometimes mixed with wax or grease in a stick to apply to polishing mops, and I know it's used as a final polishing compound on softer metals, leaving a high shine. However, a brief rummage in the interwebs didn't give me a grit size.

I've had a block of it for years - bought it from Axminster's. It leaves a lovely polish on a cutting iron bevel when used on a leather strop, but I've never really been convinced that it sharpens an edge better than a polishing stone does. It doesn't seem to do any harm, but apart from a shiny bevel, I'm not really convinced it does much good either. I'm more inclined to used a bare strop (or palm of hand, or scrap of wood, or whatever else happens to be handy) to chase off the wire edge from a fine India, or use the edge from a slate polishing stone without stropping when I want maximum sharpness.


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## matthewwh (8 Sep 2016)

I believe it's similar in size to chromox and again ball shaped particles but not as hard. 

I don't know if this adds anything to the debate, but 9 times out of 10 I use a strop to rejuvenate an edge that just beginning to go off instead of honing it. Obviously there comes a point where stropping isn't enough or is taking too long and it's time to re-polish the secondary bevel, but for me the main function of a strop is as a lazy way to extend the working life of an edge between proper sharpenings.

Stropping on the palm of your hand works if you don't have anything else, but it's can come at a price. I now have an irritating persistent lump of hard skin on my left hand that I believe is caused by a deeply embedded metal splinter from doing just that. It's hardly life threatening but I wouldn't recommend it.


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## D_W (8 Sep 2016)

matthewwh":23mb3ng8 said:


> Stropping on the palm of your hand works if you don't have anything else, but it's can come at a price. I now have an irritating persistent lump of hard skin on my left hand that I believe is caused by a deeply embedded metal splinter from doing just that. It's hardly life threatening but I wouldn't recommend it.



It leads to a filthy palm if you do it enough times in a session, too. Eventually the filth ends up on wood.


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## essexalan (8 Sep 2016)

I seem to remember that when you sent metal away for polishing you were asked what colour finish did you want, as in white, yellow, blue etc. All gave a different finish while the finished metal still looked highly polished. Jumping from a 10K stone to a 0.25 micron strop is a big move and will just polish the peaks of the edge left by your previous stone you wont end up with a 0.25 micron edge, not even sure if steel will take such a fine edge anybody know? I sometimes move from a Sigma 13K to a 1 micron diamond loaded balsa strop, although the Sigma is rated at sub 1 micron the edge still ends up more polished and feels sharper. I do what Matthew says above and use the same 1 micron strop to refresh a plane or chisel edge, with care you do not round your edges and that balsa strop appears to have work hardened quite well and stays flat enough. You will get a different edge using chromium compared to diamond.


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## matthewwh (8 Sep 2016)

That's where particle shape comes in. 

Diamonds are essentially pointy - cubes and pyramids - so no matter how fine you go they still leave grooves. 

Chromox and rouge are much rounder - like balls with facets - so it makes things smoother rather than just replacing with finer scratches. 

I suppose it's like trying to carve a flat surface with ever smaller V tools or switching to a shallow gouge.


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## D_W (8 Sep 2016)

essexalan":g3zpwanz said:


> I seem to remember that when you sent metal away for polishing you were asked what colour finish did you want, as in white, yellow, blue etc. All gave a different finish while the finished metal still looked highly polished. Jumping from a 10K stone to a 0.25 micron strop is a big move and will just polish the peaks of the edge left by your previous stone you wont end up with a 0.25 micron edge, not even sure if steel will take such a fine edge anybody know? I sometimes move from a Sigma 13K to a 1 micron diamond loaded balsa strop, although the Sigma is rated at sub 1 micron the edge still ends up more polished and feels sharper. I do what Matthew says above and use the same 1 micron strop to refresh a plane or chisel edge, with care you do not round your edges and that balsa strop appears to have work hardened quite well and stays flat enough. You will get a different edge using chromium compared to diamond.



If the diamond is fairly concentrated, you'd be surprised how fast it would remove material. I wouldn't really see the point with 0.25 diamond, but some do, I guess. It is a regimen step for the super stroppers in the world of razors who haven't yet looked at history (and probably a good thing for the people who hone razors for pay as it sort of completes an edge that may be a little incomplete otherwise - which can happen when you don't get to use the razor to examine its fitness).

I like autosol and 1 micron diamonds as the two things I'd screw around with in woodworking. 1 micron diamonds charge a jasper nicely to remove wire edges quickly on stuff that jasper normally wouldn't like. Autosol and dursol are nice on a hard leather wood backed strop, and easy to work with. If the diamond concentration is up high, though, even sub micron diamonds will create a tiny ragged edge that's toothy - sometimes that feels sharper in certain cuts. 

It gets really hard to see what's going on at that level of groove size, though, it takes something other than optical microscopes to really see what's going on, and your exact point is one that's up for debate sometimes on the razor forums - does the grain structure of the metal even support scratches that small or is it just a waste of time? I don't know the answer to that, certainly you can groove individual carbides with diamonds, but is it worthwhile? Not sure - it does give one transient very sharp shave, though - one that trims off pimples and undulations on your face if your skin is sensitive and not hard and flat.

An autosol stropped edge that has been subsequently stropped with a bit of clean leather is incredibly sharp, I don't know if any of the items mentioned above could be discerned as any sharper in a blind test. Out of experimentation this year, I bought a $1 aluminum oxide stone at the dollar store, stropped the result of that stone hard with a strop with dursol on it and then palm stropped it until it was able to pass the hanging hair test - on a common marples parer that is of modern alloy - it essentially has zero chance of holding the edge for any material amount of time.


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## ED65 (8 Sep 2016)

Cheshirechappie":138vwnm0 said:


> Out of passing interest, anybody know the particle size of Jeweller's Rouge?


Unfortunately it varies as does chromium oxide (for anyone unaware, no green stropping compounds should be assumed to be equal to another). The nature of the source and what the rouge is being sold for give some clue as to how fine it might be but you pays your money and takes your chance. I've got some rouge paste that came with some small polishing mops I bought years ago that's noticeably gritty, so nothing like rouge can be: when suspended in oil it can feel little different to the oil itself when rubbed between the fingertips. This is an old jeweller's or clock-maker's tip for determining how good a given rouge was, with warnings not to use anything coarser. 



Cheshirechappie":138vwnm0 said:


> I've had a block of it for years - bought it from Axminster's. It leaves a lovely polish on a cutting iron bevel when used on a leather strop, but I've never really been convinced that it sharpens an edge better than a polishing stone does. It doesn't seem to do any harm, but apart from a shiny bevel, I'm not really convinced it does much good either.


Like most stropping this should be an either/or with any approximately equivalent fine stone. If your stropping abrasive has a particle size roughly that of your final stone (and your technique is good) stropping is supposed to degrade the edge.


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## ED65 (8 Sep 2016)

matthewwh":1s9kk5p1 said:


> I don't know if this adds anything to the debate, but 9 times out of 10 I use a strop to rejuvenate an edge that just beginning to go off instead of honing it.


That's mainly what I use a strop for. Stropping is my 'honing' step most of the time when sharpening and I used it to touch up an edge when it's gone just that bit blunter than it should be. 

As you say there comes a point when you can't get back to properly sharp by stropping, which I find much more frequently the case with plane irons than chisels or knives.



matthewwh":1s9kk5p1 said:


> I now have an irritating persistent lump of hard skin on my left hand that I believe is caused by a deeply embedded metal splinter from doing just that. It's hardly life threatening but I wouldn't recommend it.


Don't wince but that would be worth paring down to and lifting out with your sharpest chisel. I presume you have more calloused palms than I do so if you're careful you won't cut yourself and it won't hurt. 

Warning: this medical advice provided free of any warranty.


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## ED65 (8 Sep 2016)

essexalan":30dvia33 said:


> Jumping from a 10K stone to a 0.25 micron strop is a big move and will just polish the peaks of the edge left by your previous stone you wont end up with a 0.25 micron edge...


My stropping compound supposedly contains sub-0.5 micron aluminium oxide. I recently trialled using it straight after a 1000 grit diamond plate and whether it polished off the peaks only or not it definitely improves the edge. 

This diamond plate is new, so presumably we can take it as a given that it's a shade coarser than the stated grit.


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## essexalan (8 Sep 2016)

According to a book I have by Rudolf Dick the finest cutting edges measured on a razor were 0.5 microns, the finest edges edges are from obsidian chips which are more than a hundred times thinner and are still used in microtomy. Bit brittle for carpentry though. I like stropping it makes the edge feel better and all these compounds are worth trying to find one that suits you, finishing on a plain hard, flat piece of leather and you can do no more. Bit of a waste of time when you are whacking out mortises though.


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## D_W (8 Sep 2016)

I have seen people shaving with obsidian on youtube and for some reason, the sharpness did not translate to what the fineness would suggest. It's not something I'd try, but I was curious to see if they'd shave off every bump (the thinner an edge is- presuming it's polished - the lower the angle that it will catch on something). It probably isn't that durable (as in, the immediate edge after sharpness probably gets beat up by facial hair, etc)

A properly stropped 0.5 micron razor edge will draw blood on my face. If the edges are no finer than those particles in width, the other stuff would seem like a waste. I did notice a difference in keenness further with iron oxide (.09 microns and soft cutting), it was downright uncomfortable in the ability to remove every tiny undulation, and not just the pronounced ones. Not desirable. 

All of the above a complete waste of time for knives and tools, though. 

re: the jeweler's rouge, I have gotten two different sticks of iron oxide rouge that called itself jeweler's rouge but obviously had aluminum oxide in it. It wasn't from a jewelry supply place. I guess most makers of the cheap stuff can't resist the urge to make it cut faster.


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## essexalan (8 Sep 2016)

According to the book these are just splinters chipped off the way they have done it for thousands of years. Sharp enough and neutral to flesh tissue they are used in eye surgery and for slicing flesh tissue down to 0.1 micron. I don't know but I suppose there are different types of sharp edge on a razor and I would think a diamond strop would leave a "raggy" edge while softer abrasives would give that smoother edge. I did make up some chrome dioxide paste from 0.5 micron powder and mineral oil but it is messy stuff. You can source all sorts of these powders from makers of artists oil paints in the form of pigments.


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## Cheshirechappie (8 Sep 2016)

Thanks to those who responded to my rouge question.

I did bit more rummaging on the size of haematite particles as used in jeweller's rouge, and came up with one source that suggested 3.5 to 5 microns; I'm not sure I'd take that to be the final, definitive answer, though. Given the range of uses for haematite from blast-furnace feedstock, paint pigments ('red oxide'), polishing and probably many others, there's a fair chance that it can be obtained in a wide range of sizes, and those sizes separated and graded to a greater or lesser degree.

On the subject of the effectiveness of different abrasives, there's another factor that will complicate things a bit - that some plastic deformation of metal will take place at the cutting edge of a tool being honed or stropped (or a metal being polished). The amount of deformation will (probably) be less the harder the workpiece, but it'll still be there, and grits with a more rounded shape will tend to promote more deformation - burnishing, if you like - than cutting. The sharper-edged grits, like diamonds, are more likely to scratch and cut than promote burnishing. (I suspect that may go some way to explaining why some honing stones give better edges that their grit size might suggest, as well.)

As always, it's probably best to go with what works for you. If you're consistently getting the edges your work demands, stick with whatever you're doing even if the gurus tell you you're doing it all wrong.


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## No skills (8 Sep 2016)

Little late an maybe no use but found this description...

"Red is also called Jewellers Rouge ( Rouge is simply the French word for Red ) it is used by Jewellers for polishing Gold, Silver, Pewter, Nickel, Platinum, Glass and Soft metals. Just like all Buffing bars, however not all Rouge Buffing bars are the same, because the vast majority of buffing bars are made in India and China, there Rouge is only a dye colour thats added and combined with some fine abrasive, in many cases its just fine silica (sand) but thats not good quality Jewellers Rouge they just cheap copies, that can corrode the surface of what its intended to polish. Our Rouge buffing bars are different, because the colour of our Rouge bars comes as it traditionaly should, from the abrasive itself, we use a special high quality grade of Iron (111) oxide abrasive and that produces an ultra fine finish and the abrasive colour enhances the colour of gold, which is why our Rouge is the choice of Jewellers. Rouge is recommended for use with a Loose leaf buffing wheel (or any type of soft buffing wheel). Rouge is also used the optics industry to polish Glass. Red has a very slow, ultra fine cutting action and gives a mirror like finish. Rouge has the very lowest cut rating of 1, so you need to get the metal to a good standard before using rouge in order to achieve a mirror finish. "

Nothing about particle size but interesting that cheap abrasive bar could contain a complete different medium than your expecting...


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## swagman (9 Sep 2016)

0.3 micron http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Chr ... tml#SID=48

The following site is a Micron to Grit Size Converter. http://www.rahulgladwin.com/docs/micron ... ersion.php

Entering the value of 0.3 micron;

(grit size equivalent) = 80,930.38


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## swagman (9 Sep 2016)

The largest particle size in the green honing rouge bars is 300 mesh. (169 times greater than .5 microns.) = 84.5 micron. 



> -300 mesh indicates that each particle is .003333 inches or smaller, which leaves the largest particle that would pass through a 300 mesh screen 169 times larger than .5 microns.


 http://straightrazorplace.com/honing/28 ... s-not.html


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## swagman (9 Sep 2016)

The main lesson from this discussion, is that from a buyers perspective, we will continue to be at the mercy of the retailer, and manufacturer, to accurately describe the range of micron sizing contained within these polishing compounds. 

Stewie;


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## bugbear (9 Sep 2016)

swagman":37tejenj said:


> The largest particle size in the green honing rouge bars is 300 mesh. (169 times greater than .5 microns.) = 84.5 micron.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, you can't say that. The language used is very careful.

"Actually that’s a trade determination that simply says nothing in the abrasive is coarser than 300 grit".

So all that's stated in that spec is *less than or equal to* 300 grit. TBH, in the context of sub micron particles, it effectively tells us nothing. (it's obvious from the evident performance that there are _very few_ circa 300 grit particles in the Veritas product).

It's like saying a road car's top speed is no higher than 200 MPH. Accurate, true, and unhelpful.

BugBear


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## bugbear (9 Sep 2016)

BTW, my source for strop dressing was my local graphic arts shop. I bought a "proper" artists Chromium Green oil pastel. Just scribble it on.

Given the amount of dressing needed on a strop (I suspect many people are using too much, judging by the strop cleaning processes described recently), it will outlast me.

BugBear


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## woodpig (9 Sep 2016)

When I was a kid cut throat razors were common place in barbers shops. I often used to see the barber stropping a razor ready for a customer as I waited my turn for a hair cut. The strop looked little more than a shiny leather belt with no obvious compound on it that I can recall. I too suspect some folks are putting far too much product on them.


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## memzey (9 Sep 2016)

The razor stuff is actually quite interesting but it in terms of woodwork I'm genuinely unsure as to what the merits of going to such degrees of fineness (if that is the right term) are. Are there some tasks that demand such a level in order to be performed? How long does such a keen edge last in typical tool steels? I only ask as my sharpening regimen is Neanderthal by comparison but I can still easily and cleanly pare softwood end grain as mentioned above, shave hair on my arms and take sub-thou' shavings on a smoother, all of the things I assumed you needed really sharp tools for. Is there something or some area of woodwork, like luthiery perhaps, that I'm not aware of where the benefits of these steps present themselves?


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## bugbear (9 Sep 2016)

memzey":hvya2bhw said:


> How long does such a keen edge last in typical tool steels?



Jeff Gorman's site used to quote some research (some forestry organisation, IIRC) showing that finely polished edges last _longer_ than coarsely finished edges.

BugBear


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## essexalan (9 Sep 2016)

A more refined edge is desirable when your final cuts are the finish I would have thought, carvers are particularly fastidious with their cutting edges. I heard/read that about polished edges lasting longer but I don't know how true it is.


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## CStanford (9 Sep 2016)

People go to great lengths to source a fine piece of leather and then proceed to slather on an obviously too thick layer of crayon, which by the way are meant for power buffing as the wax vehicle melts at speed when tool is touched to wheel exposing the grit. 

Leather should be treated with a paste compound, or dry compound with a little oil and it should be hard to discern whether it has been treated at all. This represents about the right amount of 'charge' for the strop. If you believe leather, itself, is efficacious it makes no sense to clog it with crayon that was meant for your electric buffer in the first place. If you consider the leather to be nothing more than a substrate to be obscured by a wax compound then any cheap piece will do as the implement being honed is not really contacting the leather in any meaningful way.

Or just use a firm composition rubber and dry powder as your strop, though it's essentially functioning as an ultra-fine stone perhaps a distinction without a difference. Any final medium equivalent to about 1500 to 2000 grit sandpaper or finer needs no 'strop' per se as very light final passes on the slightly worn paper polishes and doesn't produce a noticeable wire.

3M makes a 5000 grit sandpaper and if you think you need something finer (if even this fine) then it's likely more a matter of psychology than anything having to do with producing edges for woodworking. As previously mentioned those so inclined can move into the realm of .05 micron abrasives used on optical and other laboratory devices but it gets absurd well before this point IMO. Earth pigments are used to polish gold because they temporarily enhance its natural color. In a woodshop they would be a source of staining of the fingers which might transfer to a project. There is no advantage to using jeweler's rouge, artist's pigments, etc. vs. other products for honing woodworking tools.

https://www.amazon.com/Trizact-5000-Gri ... B00LIXEWXO


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## MIGNAL (9 Sep 2016)

memzey":3hzas80y said:


> The razor stuff is actually quite interesting but it in terms of woodwork I'm genuinely unsure as to what the merits of going to such degrees of fineness (if that is the right term) are. Are there some tasks that demand such a level in order to be performed? How long does such a keen edge last in typical tool steels? I only ask as my sharpening regimen is Neanderthal by comparison but I can still easily and cleanly pare softwood end grain as mentioned above, shave hair on my arms and take sub-thou' shavings on a smoother, all of the things I assumed you needed really sharp tools for. Is there something or some area of woodwork, like luthiery perhaps, that I'm not aware of where the benefits of these steps present themselves?



I think it rare. Cutting a lute rose with a knife might be one such task. Often you have to cut going against the grain, too much force will result in a cracked or broken section. The knife must be seriously sharp, a fresh scalpel out of the packet isn't sharp enough.
Other than that, not really. I use a 1200 diamond followed by a strop. I have much finer stones but I haven't felt the need of them for months.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2016)

Mignal - I think that is the sort of answer Memzey and I were angling for. I don't for a minute doubt the value of sharpening to that degree, just the value of doing it for 99% of everyday woodwork. As long as my tools are one step sharper than I need at that time, I'm happy. Life is too short to get anal about it.


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## memzey (9 Sep 2016)

I'm entirely satisfied with that answer but I wouldn't say I was angling for any particular narrative. 

I've only been doing woodwork as a hobby for the past couple of years now and I have yet, in my extremely limited experience, found any task that required an edge keener than I could comfortably produce with my Neanderthal style of sharpening. I won't go into how I do it because I've been reading these boards long enough to understand what lies down that path but when I bring a dull plane iron back in to a condition I can comfortably use to produce very fine shavings in oak or beech with, I only need to take the tool off the stock for a maximum of about 2 minutes. I wondered whether I hadn't encountered the need for greater degrees of sharpness, requiring more time away from the work, due to my lack of exposure to the areas of woodworking that would benefit from it or some other reason. I'm still not entirely sure but it seems like there maybe some areas, such as carving, that may benefit from these extra steps but in the main people sharpen to 0.25 micron or whatever for their own reasons, not entirely to do with the woodworking task at hand. Which is fine by me, I just didn't previously understand that as being the case is all.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (9 Sep 2016)

Mignal, that lute rose is amazing. I've never noticed it in your profile before. 
Respect, Paddy


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## D_W (9 Sep 2016)

MIGNAL":1v2el9ka said:


> memzey":1v2el9ka said:
> 
> 
> > The razor stuff is actually quite interesting but it in terms of woodwork I'm genuinely unsure as to what the merits of going to such degrees of fineness (if that is the right term) are. Are there some tasks that demand such a level in order to be performed? How long does such a keen edge last in typical tool steels? I only ask as my sharpening regimen is Neanderthal by comparison but I can still easily and cleanly pare softwood end grain as mentioned above, shave hair on my arms and take sub-thou' shavings on a smoother, all of the things I assumed you needed really sharp tools for. Is there something or some area of woodwork, like luthiery perhaps, that I'm not aware of where the benefits of these steps present themselves?
> ...



There should be a gallery of lute roses. They are so pleasing to the eye and done with so much care. A friend of many of ours on another forum had carved one (probably more than one, but he often didn't make that many pictures), too (though he has recently stated that he uses and quite likes the LV compound as a stopping point - the compound that stewie is so concerned about). 

http://www.cybozone.com/fg/wilson1.html#wilson6

Thank you for sharing a larger picture of your carved rose, Mignal. We should all aspire to stop and do some small work as carefully as that to challenge ourselves to make a nicely done piece that holds up under a lens as yours does. I'll admit that i haven't. I have enough trouble getting simple planes to look the way I want them to.


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## Jelly (10 Sep 2016)

swagman":30os4y33 said:


> Phillip; the final honing media should polish the cutting edge, without forming any noticeable wire edge.


My anecdotal experience sharpening my carving tools for use on very easily splintered timbers certainly agrees with this statement.

I however find that a stiff cloth wheel on a buffing machine with the finest polishing compound I happen to have (usually green or white), achieves this in a matter of seconds; I appreciate that not everyone has a buffer just kicking about, but if you do it saves a lot of hassle and expense over expensive stropping compounds and bits of split leather.

If the work of the buffer girls was good enough for the out of the box finish on the products of traditionally Sheffield cutlers, why do anything else?


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## bugbear (10 Sep 2016)

Jelly":1muav0m1 said:


> If the work of the buffer girls was good enough for the out of the box finish on the products of traditionally Sheffield cutlers, why do anything else?



I thought tools were sold blunt in the good old days.

BugBear


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## Jelly (10 Sep 2016)

bugbear":14w4m8jq said:


> Jelly":14w4m8jq said:
> 
> 
> > If the work of the buffer girls was good enough for the out of the box finish on the products of traditionally Sheffield cutlers, why do anything else?
> ...



Knives, razors, surgical equipment etc. certainly weren't... That's where the buffer girls come in.

I daresay that the old timers would have been non-plussed to hear of anyone going to the extremes mentioned; as both adequate and excellent work can be accomplished with a lot less sharpening than that discussed here.


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## rafezetter (12 Sep 2016)

Having read all five pages - the one thing I'm taking away from this is the recommendation to strop after every major sharpen, and do it often to lengthen the time of a good edge. I used to strop after first sharpen for a short while, but never really felt much of a difference, maybe this has something to do with my using 5k or 7k wet n dry papers as part of my regime and not needing to plane to a "finished" state but merely for processing.

Either way I think I will, it certainly can't hurt as long as I get the technique right and don't dub the edge.

Mignal - that lute rose is amazing, I had noticed it as your avatar, but didn't know you had carved it yourself. I can't imagine how it must have been knowing that just 1 slip and it's ruined, more confidence than I could summon that's for sure.


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## essexalan (12 Sep 2016)

Beautiful work Mignal. I really must try a lot harder or give up with my humble efforts and just how do you get a Swann and Morton scalpel blade sharper?


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## bugbear (12 Sep 2016)

essexalan":31a22q0e said:


> Beautiful work Mignal. I really must try a lot harder or give up with my humble efforts and just how do you get a Swann and Morton scalpel blade sharper?



Just use finer abrasives than Swann/Morton deem needed. Simple enough.

Scalpels ain't (that) sharp. Jim Kingshott spoke of sharpening new scalpel blades.

BugBear


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## essexalan (13 Sep 2016)

I use them a lot for plastic model making and being tight I do sharpen them but I can't say I get them sharper than original. Will check out JK's book later.


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## MIGNAL (13 Sep 2016)

It's a long time since I made it so I'm not quite sure what I used. I know I made some extremely thin carving chisels to do the plunge cuts. The knife cuts may have been a small violin making knife. It may have been a scalpel. Strop and strop a lot!
Here's the rest of it, in figured ash:


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## ED65 (13 Sep 2016)

Stunning work Mignal! =D> 



essexalan":a9lc8v6a said:


> I use them a lot for plastic model making and being tight I do sharpen them but I can't say I get them sharper than original.


It's hard to do. A few factors can easily affect how sharp you'll get blades like this, but consistently holding the very shallow angle needed is a major obstacle for most people. If memory serves the bevel angle is 12° or something like that, which is very hard to get to accurately in the first place and even harder to maintain over multiple strokes.

I find stropping the only way to consistently beat the original edge on scalpel or craft-knife blades.

Some days I can get a really good edge on P1000 or P1200 paper (edge-trailing strokes) or with a hard translucent Arkansas (leading strokes) but most of the time I need to do a quick strop at the end to get hair-popping sharpness.


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## swagman (13 Sep 2016)

I have placed an order for a 60 inch length of 3.5mm x 76mm Cowhide Butt Leather from the U.K, to make up some new stropping paddles. The leather will be glued to the wood substrates flesh side down.

http://www.jwoodleathers.co.uk/leatherhide.html

Stewie;


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## swagman (14 Sep 2016)

The Pure Chromium Oxide Paste arrived in the mail today. I completed a basis trial on the application of PCOP product compared that of the Chromium Oxide Wax Compound (COWC) to some old stock cowhide leather I had in my workshop. 

The PCOP was very easy to apply. Only the smallest amount was required to cover a large area of leather. As you wipe the surface with your finger tip, you can feel the extremely fine granular polishing compound within the product. Wear rubber gloves when applying this product as it will stain your skin.

The COWC was a lot harder to apply to work an even coverage across the surface of the leather. As you wipe the surface with your finger tip, the surface feels very undulated and clumpy, with obvious signs of the fine granular polishing compound within the product. 





I have read of recommendations not to use any petroleum products on leather strops, as its use long term can severely damage the strengthening fibres within the leather itself, potentially resulting in rotting of the leather.

As a test only, I rubbed the surface of the COWC vigorously with a Honing Oil to see if that allow the COWC to be more evenly spread across the leather. Due to the wax component within this product it made no difference. 





I then trialled rubbing the surface of the COWC vigorously with Mineral Turpentine. Due to the wax component within this product it made little to no difference. 





Stewie;


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## swagman (14 Sep 2016)

When viewing the content of the Pure Chromium Oxide Paste, be aware that is all you receive within the supplied container. On opening the product, there was a very thin layer of solidified paste on top of the liquid paste below. That skin has to be removed and discarded as its not re-usable. Its represents a loss of usable product. To prevent re-occurrence at a later stage, I am storing this product in a refrigerator between use. I will make inquiries with the supplier to obtain some further advice.

Its important to note that I payed full retail price to personally trial this Pure Chromium Oxide Paste product.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chromium Oxide Paste 1 £15.00 £15.00
======================================================================
Subtotal: £15.00
Shipping (Airmail Signed): £11.00
Total (inc VAT): £26.00

Stewie;


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2016)

Just out of curiosity, Stewie - why the British leather for the strops? Is it significantly different or better than Australian?


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## swagman (14 Sep 2016)

phil.p; no I don't believe U.K. leather is in anyway superior to Australian leather. 

Stewie;


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2016)

So it's different. How?


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## essexalan (14 Sep 2016)

phil.p":k5xskjwd said:


> Just out of curiosity, Stewie - why the British leather for the strops? Is it significantly different or better than Australian?



I wondered about that as well. I have found that horsehide is harder/tougher than cowhide and for plain leather with no paste kangaroo is good. I mount mine on a mild 
steel base 75 mm by 300 mm by sticking a magnetic backing to the strop. That way I can interchange strops easily and only need one base, of course you could just stick the strop to any steel surface you have in your workshop.
If you warm the wax stick and the strop then you might find application easier, hairdryer will do, but you don't need much abrasive to make the strop effective. You might find that your stick is acrylic based so you would need an acrylic thinner. Important that you don't let a leather strop dry out and I have never had problems with a light smear of mineral oil, very light don't drown it.


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## swagman (14 Sep 2016)

Its the cut from the kangaroo tail that's prized as a stropping leather.


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## ED65 (14 Sep 2016)

Stewie, I presume from your recent threads that cost is not a major factor for you but for anyone else who'd have significant shipping to swallow on top of the purchase price FYI you can buy pigment-grade CrO from many artists' suppliers. Chromium oxide sold for artistic use is guaranteed to have a small, and usually very uniform, particle size. And it's in dry form so there are zero long-term storage problems, your great-grandchildren could use any remainder if it came to that. 

As a single tub would be more than one person would need in a lifetime for stropping duties you can spread the cost of the purchase between a number of like-minded friends if you like. Each person can blend it with an oil or wax as they prefer, to make up a liquid, paste or solid block.

Or you could just buy a tube of fine metal polish, or any equivalent of T-Cut and be done with it :mrgreen:


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## essexalan (14 Sep 2016)

swagman":1v6uzqnn said:


> Its the cut from the kangaroo tail that's prized as a stropping leather.



So I have heard but roo leather costs a lot of dosh in the UK, strict export controls.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2016)

Kangaroo steak is rather good.


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## essexalan (14 Sep 2016)

phil.p":3ji0ficb said:


> Kangaroo steak is rather good.



Sharpen up your steak knives between mouthfuls ?


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2016)

No way. Like fillet. From Lidl, quite cheap.


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## swagman (14 Sep 2016)

> Or you could just buy a tube of fine metal polish, or any equivalent of T-Cut and be done with it :mrgreen:



Ed65; how do you want me to respond. !!!

Stewie;


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## D_W (14 Sep 2016)

Couple of points:
* the pastes are overpriced, they're aimed at shavers. a shaver will recharge a strop only rarely. Pigment places (presumably selling to artists and makeup manufacturers) will have much better prices. You can decide what you want the base to a paste to be or just use the pigment. If Hand American ever gets it together again, they sold 4 ounces of graded chrome ox powder for $12. That's a lifetime supply. I have seen graded powders as large as 3 or 5 micron - so care has to be taken to make sure you're getting what you think, unless you just want to take the risk on something like a $5 2 ounce, truthfully, a 1 micron powder would probably be more practical, but everyone thinks that sharpness is holding them back in their work (and if basic sharpening is mastered, that's rarely an issue unless one is doing something like paring exotics - even at that, geometry is more important).
* mineral oil won't hurt the leather. It hasn't hurt my bovine leather (with no compound) for 6 or 7 years. You use a few drops at a time, there's no need to soak the leather. If the base of the paste is oil, then what difference does it make adding oil to the wax strop? If it's a problem, nonetheless, neatsfoot oil has been used on oil for longer than I could ever project it has been
* there is about 10 times as much LV crayon as you should have on the bovine leather on the right. It only takes a small amount of coloring. The reason the oil isn't helping is because there is too much wax there
* loaded strops should be fastened to wood, and the leather should be equine horse butt and not bovine butt. Equine is several orders of magnitude harder

Since you have bovine leather, you can't do anything about it. You can glue it to a flat wood surface with any woodworking glue or contact cement, and scrape the crayon off of the one on the right and start over only just coloring the surface.


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## MIGNAL (14 Sep 2016)

I use the wax green crayon. I charge the leather about once every couple of weeks. I suspect it's going to last me 5 life times.


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## swagman (14 Sep 2016)

Mignal; you could always add a wick to that green wax crayon of yours, and use it as candle, when you get too old to visit your workshop.

Stewie;


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## ED65 (15 Sep 2016)

swagman":12aiothe said:


> > Or you could just buy a tube of fine metal polish, or any equivalent of T-Cut and be done with it :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's entirely up to you Stewie. 

If you are basically saying that you think a fine metal polish or some equivalent of T-Cut aren't up to the job you should just say so, although I'd like to know why you believe that to be the case.


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## swagman (15 Sep 2016)

Ed65; how am I expected to respond, you obviously have the greater depth of knowledge on this topic.

Stewie;



> Stewie, I presume from your recent threads that cost is not a major factor for you but for anyone else who'd have significant shipping to swallow on top of the purchase price FYI you can buy pigment-grade CrO from many artists' suppliers. Chromium oxide sold for artistic use is guaranteed to have a small, and usually very uniform, particle size. And it's in dry form so there are zero long-term storage problems, your great-grandchildren could use any remainder if it came to that.
> 
> As a single tub would be more than one person would need in a lifetime for stropping duties you can spread the cost of the purchase between a number of like-minded friends if you like. Each person can blend it with an oil or wax as they prefer, to make up a liquid, paste or solid block.
> 
> Or you could just buy a tube of fine metal polish, or any equivalent of T-Cut and be done with it :mrgreen:


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## D_W (15 Sep 2016)

swagman":2z8zonah said:


> Ed65; how am I expected to respond, you obviously have the greater depth of knowledge on this topic.
> 
> Stewie;
> 
> ...



A response are "those are good points", or "point taken" would be fine. 

It's not a contest....unless, I guess, your objective is to knock LV.

What's being missed here is that the LV/microfine stick is a very good product when used correctly, but in this thread, the demonstration hasn't gotten to that point yet. Gobs of individuals, including one of the finest craftsmen in the world (George) have suggested that they use it and described on various forums how they used it. 

I'd suggest next time, and you don't have to take my suggestion, but I'd suggest you get a little further along use and experience curves on something like this before you blast / copy and paste posts onto a whole bunch of forums. It's not as if you said that you were going to compare these things and the entirety of the forum universe was surprised and had never tried them. A reasonable sequence would be something like:

* you decide you want to try something finer than most sharpening stones
* you pose a question on forums asking for a comparison of certain items (in this case, asking where to buy chrome oxide would've been a good question)
* evaluate the options, buy one or two and try them and then post your conclusion *after*
* If your conclusion (which you attempted to assert before you had any of these things in hand) disagrees with the consensus, then you want to figure out why that is or concede you might be incorrect


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## swagman (15 Sep 2016)

DW; a few corrections of the facts are in order. 

the following is what George Wilson stated 1 week ago on the SMC Forum site;



> The likelihood of rounding the edge by stropping depends upon what the strop is made of, and your technique. I use a MDF strop which is not prone to round the edge unless the user lifts up the blade towards the end of the stroke. I don't do that, but many may. No telling what different people might do.
> 
> I wear a 1 1/2" belt custom made of hard English harness leather(The harness maker made it for me. Probably will outlast me!) I take the end out of the keeper and use its HARD suede side as a strop when sitting in the living room. It brings back my SLIGHTLY less than razor sharp ball bearing steel blade pocket knife blade, which I made, to razor keen ness. I take light strokes, and may do 100 if needed. *There is no compound on the belt.* Certainly gets the knife razor sharp again. I get about 8" of belt to strop on when I pull it out of the leather keeper. Only use about 3" to strop on. I CHANGE ANGLES a lot. That includes the initial stropping after honing the blade on the last stone.
> 
> I find I don't need to strop after the UF ceramic stone. It will get razor sharp just off the stone, easily shaving hairs. But,part of that is how I USE the stone. Angles ,etc. .



And yet, here is George in the same post recommending to others they should be using a honing compound. !!!!



> I repeat: ITS ALL ABOUT TECHNIQUE that you bring to bear on the strop. Not necessarily the strop itself, provided the strop is made of good material itself,* properly compounded* (for initial stropping just after stoning),etc..



Another relevant detail to add; you have already stated previously *you don't use the green wax honing compound on your own strop*. 

*And yet, here you are condemning me, for also daring to use a different product. !!!!!*

No doubt your offsider Dorothy Dix will be making a comment shortly.

Stewie;


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## D_W (15 Sep 2016)

swagman":2f21qghh said:


> Another relevant detail to add; you have already stated previously *you don't use the green wax honing compound on your own strop*.
> 
> *And yet, here you are condemning me, for also daring to use a different product. !!!!!*
> 
> Stewie;



I used it for quite a long time, and found that it works very well and improves an edge to at least similar to the 1/2 micron stones (until recently, I had a suehiro gok 20k, and a friend has the 30k glasstone). 

I thought the whole particle thing was absurd, even on the razor boards. But it was most likely due to people discussing spec sheets rather than using the bar (several who actually used it commented they were satisfied, as I have been with bars purchased both from rockler and LV). 

I have probably 20 different compounds, your reasoning is to suggest that 19 of them are no good because I'm using the 20th, when I've clearly stated that unlike the direction you're going (that the compound may not be fine enough), that I think it's a waste of time in most cases because it's too fine. For woodworking, graded chromium oxide submicron pigment absolutely is. 

In this case, as with before, when you're going to blast post something very common that a lot of people have experience with to multiple forums, you should probably hold off posting and drawing early conclusions and learn about it first.

(I suggested the MDF to george years ago, though I can't verify that he wasn't doing it already - I can't recall the details of the conversation but he could certainly be asked. George has a lot of experience with whetstones already, including a lot that are not available any longer because he was in charge of testing stones and deciding what they would stock at wmsbg).

As you're suggesting (and misspelling Dorothea's name), Derek may be along here shortly, but he has already used the LV/formax stick competently and he'd rightfully be annoyed with your veiled and not so veiled attacks at him. You'd have done well to look at the pictures on his website and copy the concentration of material that he had on his strop.


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## swagman (15 Sep 2016)

DW; to be honest, I wouldn't know what to believe when I read some of your comments on forum sites. It changes every week. 

regards Stewie;


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## swagman (15 Sep 2016)

*My contribution to this forum post has ended. *

Congratulations DW. 

Stewie;.


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## ED65 (15 Sep 2016)

...aaand there we go again.

You might want to heed your own admonition from page 2 of this very thread Stewie :|


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