# another of Jacob's rants.



## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

I'm putting in a planning application for a shed in my front garden. One of the commonest reasons for rejection in the first instance is apparently the mis labelling of boundaries etc. They insist upon the boundary of the property being marked in blue and the outline of the shed, extension etc. being marked in red. Many people will copy their map from Land Registry maps, where the property boundary is marked in red. Not a lot of joined up thinking, there.


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## Rorschach (10 Sep 2021)

I was told it's to stop confusion, anyone who sees a map with a boundary not in red knows it isn't an official map.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

Mmmm..... so why doesn't the council ask for the boundary in red and the subject of the application marked in blue (or green, or ...)


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## robgul (10 Sep 2021)

Bit of lateral thinking : mark it in mauve as a mix of red + blue 

IGMC


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## mikej460 (10 Sep 2021)

Yes we had that nonsense a couple of years ago. i just printed the LR doc in black and white and went over it in felt tip.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

Yes, that option occurred to me. I haven't a printer - I just can't justify one for the use it would get - but I would imagine the one my wife uses at work would have that option. It just seems daft.


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## Rorschach (10 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Mmmm..... so why doesn't the council ask for the boundary in red and the subject of the application marked in blue (or green, or ...)



LR uses different colours on their maps for different things but property boundaries are always red. If someone saw the map with the red boundary they might assume it was an official map from a deed. LR get very funny about these kinds of things as there is an awful lot of attempted property fraud.
I agree it still adds complication but it makes sense why they do this. No perfect solution to this kind of thing.


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## MARK.B. (10 Sep 2021)

Councils and common sense -not a marriage made in heaven


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## Cabinetman (10 Sep 2021)

Yeah, saw the title and thought, best of luck there. 
Good few years ago local council sent plans back, obviously drawn wrong - who would have the kitchen at the front and sitting room at the back.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

Mmmm .......
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help. ".
R. Reagan.


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## clogs (10 Sep 2021)

our planning was once refused because there were no tree's printed on the plan.....!!!!!!!!!!
another time I wanted to add an extension to our end of terrace.....
they said cant be done....but I explained that on the next 2 rows it had already been done....
Gave up in the end and moved to a bigger place.....different council.....
went to buy a burnt out house with a conected barn only small just 1 bedroom....only the chimney was left standing and 1 wall upto window hight.....
asked if I bought it could I make the barn part of the house....
NO, it's a listed building.....??????
as far as I know it's condition is even worse now....
They are all morons....


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## Spectric (10 Sep 2021)

Anything in front of a property can be a nightmare, we are restricted to 200mm raised beds if we put them in the front garden.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

There are buildings around here that have been slowly falling down for decades because they are listed, and no one wants them. One burned down probably the best part of 20 years ago (maybe more) and the site is derelict. No one will develop it as the building was listed and therefore the facade must be rebuilt to look as it did - which was that of a domestic house right in the centre of town.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

Spectric said:


> Anything in front of a property can be a nightmare, we are restricted to 200mm raised beds if we put them in the front garden.


I'll get mine without any problem - they've just allowed an extension off the front two doors away. They approved this because there was a precedent, one of my neighbours on the other side. What they didn't take into account was that that bungalow was built behind the line of the others and that front extension only brought into line with its neighbours. Durrrrr .... (I'll play the disabled card anyway, if necessary  , not that I like doing it.)


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## Richard_C (10 Sep 2021)

Many years ago a friend applied for PP for a large shed, in his walled and not overlooked back garden. In a conservation area. Refused. Reapplied for a "free standing hobby and storage area", same drawings and in every respect apart from name, a shed. Approved. Excellent. 

I suppose these days he could have applied for a very very big bin store with spare space for other things. As long as its not called a shed.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

In our old house I had a 20' x 20' "garage". When the planning went in I was told by the architect never to call it a "workshop"  .


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## RobinBHM (10 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I'm putting in a planning application for a shed in my front garden. One of the commonest reasons for rejection in the first instance is apparently the mis labelling of boundaries etc. They insist upon the boundary of the property being marked in blue and the outline of the shed, extension etc. being marked in red. Many people will copy their map from Land Registry maps, where the property boundary is marked in red. Not a lot of joined up thinking, there.







__





SW - PlanningMaps Page







www.streetwise.net





this website allows you to draw on boundaries, house, extension etc.

also you can add text.

I have downloaded them in the past as a word document so I can add address details etc too.


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## Rorschach (10 Sep 2021)

Just checked with an LR lawyer, they don't care about boundary colours, whatever I was told was hogwash, you can send in plans to them in any colours, markings etc that you like, as long as there are notes/key to explain they are happy.

Long story short, councils are prats


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

On Cornwall Council's own site it says a common cause of rejection is the boundaries not being marked to their satisfaction and believe it or not without an arrow showing north. Why this should affect anything, who knows?


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## Rorschach (10 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> On Cornwall Council's own site it says a common cause of rejection is the boundaries not being marked to their satisfaction and believe it or not without an arrow showing north. Why this should affect anything, who knows?



My source used some language to describe council planning departments that if I repeated would get me banned (again).


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## mikej460 (10 Sep 2021)

Our old drive ran right up against the side of our cottage with no visibility to traffic coming from the right, so we wanted to move it further away and opening onto a large turning circle. The council made us jump through hoop after hoop and spend hundreds of pounds employing a surveyor to map out 'visibility splays'. We live in a quiet country cul-de-sac. Having done all the planning officer asked for he insisted it go before the planning committee. The Chairman waved it through stating he found it unbelievable it was put before them. The new drive now looks great but I was not a happy bunny having wasted so much cash on useless diagrams that added nothing to the obvious improvements the move produced.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

My mother applied for PP for a bungalow on years ago. Directly across the road they gave permission for a sixty million gallon lagoon on the grounds that it was built so as not likely to flood. Hers was turned down ........... yes, because of the likelihood of its flooding.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2021)

On the same development they gave permission for a plant that would take a large truck every three minutes 24/7 to service while at the same time refusing a bungalow further up the road as the road wouldn't take any more traffic.


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## Valhalla (10 Sep 2021)

*councils and common sense ??*

Surely they are mutually exclusive.....


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## Billy_wizz (10 Sep 2021)

Council and common sense the only way they go in the same sentence is if no is Included before the words common sense


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## Rorschach (11 Sep 2021)

Now come on lads we are being a bit unfair here. Councils have their flaws of course but they provide a superb service in some areas. I mean just look how good they are at funnelling public money into their own pockets, they find lovely cushy jobs for their mates, they are amazing at providing totally unsustainable pension funds and they provide lovely "research trips" to hot countries for senior staff. 
Makes you proud to be ummmmmmm oh I lost my train of though there.


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## Keith Cocker (11 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Mmmm .......
> "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help. ".
> R. Reagan.



“There is no such thing as society” M Thatcher. 

Reagan and Thatcher were both a**holes of the first order in my opinion.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2021)

No one asked for your opinion.


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## stuart little (11 Sep 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Yeah, saw the title and thought, best of luck there.
> Good few years ago local council sent plans back, obviously drawn wrong - who would have the kitchen at the front and sitting room at the back.


Apart from 4 bungalows & 2 semis, on my estate, all of the other16 houses, including my bungalow, have the kitchens at front & living rooms at rear, which is ideal as it gives the better outlook to the rear.


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## Keith Cocker (11 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> No one asked for your opinion.



I normally don’t wait to be asked on such matters but do with it what you will.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2021)

Already done.


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## Jonm (11 Sep 2021)

The colours for land plans and planning permission were determined many years ago. The vast majority of plans then were in black and white with colours added manually.

Coloured plans are a very recent development. Producing this planning permission plan is the easiest one to do, print in black and white then mark with felt tip.

To change these standard colours would cause confusion and a lot of expense. Look what happens when you try to standardise the colour of electric cables. Previously red live danger. Now brown earth safe, umm no.


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## GerryT (11 Sep 2021)

“Councils and Common sense” that’s an oxymoron if ever I saw one !


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## Spectric (11 Sep 2021)

Councils, along the same lines as government where they are nothing more than a gaggle of odd balls whose main interest is themselves, and love to stick their snouts in the trough when it comes to making money. As for making logical or sensible suggestions or ideas just no hope.

Be aware that at the moment if your council is a bit dodgy and can be easily swayed, bribed or persuaded then the government is looking for an area of guinea pigs to try out it's new ground source heating system in the form of a big hole filled with toxic radioactive waste going under the guise of a geological disposal facility. Maybe you could have a tropical microclimate and have an area more like the mediteranean before everyone else gets one from global warming!


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## Sandyn (11 Sep 2021)

When I decided to build an extension to the house, the first thing I did was make an appointment with the planning department to talk it over and make sure I supplied them with everything they needed. They were extremely helpful. I was lucky to find a guy to draw up the plans (on a drawing board!) who used to work in the planning department. I had no problems with the submitted plans. The build took me quite a while to complete. My allocated planning officer visited a couple of times, just to do a spot check. At one, he said I needed a small window in the door between the garage and the kitchen. then suggested if I had the door open in the other direction, it wouldn't be necessary, he was really helpful, laid-back guy, very friendly. As I completed the build, I had to make some changes, because the wall at the back end of the house was 0,3m out over a 6m length. I updated the plans and re-submitted with no problems. The build was completed and final sign-off done with no problems. Overall, I found my council planning department, very helpful. The planning officer even pointed out that I had been overcharged and organised a £20 refund!


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## Terry - Somerset (11 Sep 2021)

The role of council planning departments seems to be:

making simple decisions more difficult for the typical house owner, whilst
co-operating willingly with developers who want to build large numbers of high density, minimal standard, boxes on green fields.

Surely this is what local democracy is all about!


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## Woody2Shoes (11 Sep 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The role of council planning departments seems to be:
> 
> making simple decisions more difficult for the typical house owner, whilst
> co-operating willingly with developers who want to build large numbers of high density, minimal standard, boxes on green fields.
> ...


The role of council planning departments *successive m/puppet tory governments after caving in to intensive lobbying by well-funded vested interests* seems to be:

making simple decisions more difficult for the typical house owner, whilst
co-operating willingly with developers who want to build large numbers of high density, minimal standard, boxes on green fields.

There, FTFY !


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## Rorschach (11 Sep 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> The role of council planning departments *successive m/puppet tory governments after caving in to intensive lobbying by well-funded vested interests* seems to be:
> 
> making simple decisions more difficult for the typical house owner, whilst
> co-operating willingly with developers who want to build large numbers of high density, minimal standard, boxes on green fields.
> ...



We had a labour government for 13 of the last 24 years


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## Woody2Shoes (11 Sep 2021)

Rorschach said:


> We had a labour government for 13 of the last 24 years


That's as maybe, but the tories are significantly more susceptible to this kind of lobbying....


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## Rorschach (11 Sep 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> That's as maybe, but the tories are significantly more susceptible to this kind of lobbying....



It's just anyone in local or national government, regardless of party or political persuasion. Power corrupts, money corrupts. Show me someone with any kind of power and I will show someone who is corrupt.


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## Woody2Shoes (11 Sep 2021)

Rorschach said:


> It's just anyone in local or national government, regardless of party or political persuasion. Power corrupts, money corrupts. Show me someone with any kind of power and I will show someone who is corrupt.


I'm not quite that cynical about human nature. I think we generally get the politicians we deserve, which seems mostly to be second/third-raters who don't realise (lacking both wits and principles) they're being manipulated most of the time.
If we made politics respectable, then we might get better applicants...


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## Rorschach (11 Sep 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> I'm not quite that cynical about human nature. I think we generally get the politicians we deserve, which seems mostly to be second/third-raters who don't realise (lacking both wits and principles) they're being manipulated most of the time.
> If we made politics respectable, then we might get better applicants...



Maybe, but I have seen previously good, well intentioned people achieve positions of power and they change so I personally don't think we will ever get good politicians.


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## Terry - Somerset (11 Sep 2021)

Looking at election manifestos in 2019:

Tories promised to fix the pot holes - cost fairly trivial
Labour promised radical reforms increasing to £20bn pa. They recognised there would need to be tax increases but ignored the question of who would pay how much
Libdems promised a spend increasing to £5.5bn - predictably a compromise!
1997-2010 Labour increased local authority funding. 2010-2020 the Tories reduced it.

I am reminded of the letter left by Liam Byrne for his successor at the Treasury in 2010 - "Dear Chief Secretary, I’m afraid that there is no money. Kind regards and good luck! Liam.”

I am also unsure whether central government form local council officer behaviours, or whether the concept of customer servce and accountability is simply part of the public service culture.

Draw your own conclusions from all that!!


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## stuartpaul (11 Sep 2021)

My, my all this vitriol towards councils.

Have any of you ever spared a thought for them? Consider some of the morons they have to provide services for!


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## thetyreman (11 Sep 2021)

don't get me started on stockport council lol I can't stand them.


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## baldkev (12 Sep 2021)

Did you all have a good summer?


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> On Cornwall Council's own site it says a common cause of rejection is the boundaries not being marked to their satisfaction and believe it or not without an arrow showing north. Why this should affect anything, who knows?


To avoid mistakes and misunderstanding about exactly what is being applied for.


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> ....
> 
> Labour promised radical reforms increasing to £20bn pa. They recognised there would need to be tax increases but ignored the question of who would pay how much
> .....
> ...


Nothing compared to the £37billion lost on a failed track and trace system, just one project! 
“Unimaginable” cost of Test & Trace failed to deliver central promise of averting another lockdown - Committees - UK Parliament 
and only expenditure which even the tories are now recognising as unavoidable, and on forward looking projects.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> To avoid mistakes and misunderstanding about exactly what is being applied for.




Ahhh ....... so they can't tell whether something is in line with others, too high, too large etc. without knowing where north is? I didn't realise.


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## Rorschach (12 Sep 2021)

C'mon Jacob, you are missing an opportunity to shoe horn Brexit in here somewhere.

"If only Jeremy were running the councils!" wailed an elderly Diane Abbot as she pushed her shopping trolley through Camden collecting crisp packets.


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Ahhh ....... so they can't tell whether something is in line with others, too high, too large etc. without knowing where north is? I didn't realise.


It's just a fundamental piece of information which removes ambiguity and helps locate an item. Two rectangles on a plan doesn't necessarily tells you how they are orientated relative to each other unless there are other details, north point being an obvious first choice. 
You can use maps without the aid of a compass but it helps.


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## Ozi (12 Sep 2021)

I'm not going to join in with the general moaning, I could, I'm very good at it but who want's to hear it.

Our local council sometimes has an uncontested seat and even has had a seat with no candidate. I'd love to have a go but as my unreasonable family want to eat every day spend my time working. Take a look at the average age of council members, particularly local and parish. With no disrespect to older members ( I'm rapidly becoming one - 57 today ) but these jobs need to be done by people with a bit more connection to the average person they represent. Not drawn from the ranks of older wealthier men who would like things to be just the way they were.

It has always struck me as strange that the jobs of MP or council member are among the few you can apply for without qualifications, I'd like to see a system where to apply for either you had to present a CV showing what you had already achieved as well as what you were promising to do. That said how many people know the name of the local councilor they voted for? If we want democracy to work for us we need to participate other wise we might just as well pick at random as we do for jury service.

Oh look I joined in with the moaning after all - you knew I would.


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2021)

Ozi said:


> I'm not going to join in with the general moaning, I could, I'm very good at it but who want's to hear it.
> 
> Our local council sometimes has an uncontested seat and even has had a seat with no candidate. I'd love to have a go but as my unreasonable family want to eat every day spend my time working. Take a look at the average age of council members, particularly local and parish. With no disrespect to older members ( I'm rapidly becoming one - 57 today ) but these jobs need to be done by people with a bit more connection to the average person they represent. Not drawn from the ranks of older wealthier men who would like things to be just the way they were.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! For starters I'd ban anybody with excess wealth, say over £1million. and anybody private school educated unless it was for special needs perhaps


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2021)

Popcorn time. Give it a rest.


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## Ozi (12 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Absolutely! For starters I'd ban anybody with excess wealth, say over £1million. and anybody private school educated unless it was for special needs perhaps


I understand the sentiment but I wouldn't ban people that arbitrarily, that's just repeating what they do to us. If someone has a million because they earned it they might just be the person to handle our local budgets. Might want to put a terrifying penalty in place for embezzlement first!


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## Rorschach (12 Sep 2021)

Maybe Brexit will improve the local councils?


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Popcorn time. Give it a rest.


You eat a lot of pop corn Phil!


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## Terry - Somerset (12 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Absolutely! For starters I'd ban anybody with excess wealth, say over £1million. and anybody private school educated unless it was for special needs perhaps



You would no doubt object to any suggestion that we also ban those who are poor.

I prefer as my representative, local or national, someone who has the ability to do the job well.

I don't care how much they earn, nor how much they own. I would prefer those with integrity to match ability, but the "poor but honest" stands no more scrutiny the "wealthy but corrupt"


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> You would no doubt object to any suggestion that we also ban those who are poor.
> ......


Certainly would!
They are the ones most in need of good government and the whole history of democracy has been about taking power from the top and giving it to the people who need it.
Even women couldn't be MPs before 1918 and couldn't vote until 1928.
The next big reform will have to be for proportional representation instead of first past the post, which is inherently unfair on minorities:
It took:
• 864,743 to elect the lone Green MP
• 642,303 votes for zero Brexit Party MPs
• 334,122 to elect each Liberal Democrat
• 50,817 to elect each Labour MP
• 38,300 votes to elect each Conservative MP
• 38,316 to elect each Plaid Cymru MP
• 25,882 to elect each SNP MP









Analysis: Millions of votes go to waste as parties need ‘wildly’ different number of votes per MP


New Electoral Reform Society analysis has revealed the 'absurdity' of Westminster's voting system, with parties needing wildly different levels of support to secure each MP.




www.electoral-reform.org.uk







> but the "poor but honest" stands no more scrutiny the "wealthy but corrupt"


False antithesis.
It's between those who have too little and those who have too much.


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## Rorschach (12 Sep 2021)

Love the new title!


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## MikeK (12 Sep 2021)

This thread has run its course.


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