# What to buy?



## MJP (15 Jul 2017)

I rather fancy buying a small lathe - no real idea what I'm going to do with it, but vaguely thinking of making little knobs, control levers, inlays and suchlike out of plastics, brass and aluminium, together with wooden items such as file and chisel handles. Nothing big, and no interest in bowls etc.

So I suppose I'm looking at a mini metal lathe. I've looked at the Sieg ones - the SC3 and suchlike look like what I'm thinking of.

But the reviews are so variable- some say they're OK, others say they're rubbish and so on - that I really don't know what to think.

What do others think? What would be a good beginner's lathe for working wood and soft metals? I've got plenty of HSS cutting tools inherited from my Father in Law (pity he didn't have the lathe as well!).

I know that there would be a bit of a problem with the differing speeds needed for metals versus wood, but I suppose a variable speed lathe would solve that.

As for cost, the SC3 would be about the limit that I would be prepared to spend, though of course it might all turn out to be a nine day wonder, so if a less expensive option were on offer, I'd be happy to know.

and finally, please don't suggest that I go to a woodturning club to see if I like it - I'm not a club joiner.


----------



## J-G (15 Jul 2017)

You are probably looking on the wrong part of the forum but as it happens I do pretty much what you indicate is your area of interest. I suggest that you look for a second-hand Myford Super 7 which is what I use for most of the turning I do in Steel, Brass, Alum or a variety of hard-woods.


----------



## MJP (15 Jul 2017)

Thanks J-G.

Indeed, a Super 7 would fit the bill admirably - but for the fact that I haven't the room for one. I'm looking for something small and bench-mounted that can be pushed aside when not in use.

The Super 7 will have to wait until the next time....

Martin.


----------



## dickm (15 Jul 2017)

Might be better to post your query in the Metalworking section. 
While the Super 7 is probably the gold standard for amateurs (unless they've got room for a Boxford or Colchester!) you probably pay for the name. For the sort of stuff you are talking about, something smaller and cheaper (like the Siegs) would almost certainly be more than adequate.


----------



## MJP (15 Jul 2017)

Thanks Dick.

Yes, I think for my purposes and for the room available, something Sieg-like would fit the bill.

Is there some way for me to move my posting to the metalworking section or do I have to start over, do you know?

Martin.


----------



## J-G (15 Jul 2017)

MJP":227jg5vw said:


> Indeed, a Super 7 would fit the bill admirably - but for the fact that I haven't the room for one. I'm looking for something small and bench-mounted that can be pushed aside when not in use.


I didn't think I had the room for mine - especially since I already had an ML7, a Pillar drill, A Gear Hobber, a Band Saw, a Router Table and a Clark wood lathe - but since then I've also added a Chop Saw and a Warco Milling machine !! 

If you are anything like me, you will soon want to work on a project which takes your equipment . ...just _*beyond*_... . its limit, so if you can re-measure the space you have and squeeze a Super 7 in it would be well worth while. 

Mine is on its own stand of course but is not bolted down so can be 'nudged' out of the way when necessary.


----------



## MJP (15 Jul 2017)

Stop it now, J-G - we're talking serious acquisition inflation here! 

I might be able to smuggle a Sieg in past SWMBO but an ML7?

Martin.


----------



## TFrench (15 Jul 2017)

Its basic man-maths. You can justify anything if you have the room for it. (I've just bought a lovely little horizontal mill - no current job for it, but it was cheap, there's room at work for it and one glorious day, I will need it and it will get me out of the poo!)


----------



## J-G (16 Jul 2017)

MJP":ohbm30x4 said:


> Stop it now, J-G - we're talking serious acquisition inflation here!


   


MJP":ohbm30x4 said:


> I might be able to smuggle a Sieg in past SWMBO but an ML7?



Ah... I do have an advantage 
.
.
... no SWMBO !!


----------



## MJP (16 Jul 2017)

Oh, in certain circumstances that could indeed be a significant advantage!

Don't think I'd swap mine for a Super Seven though...

Looks like I'm going to have to start again in the metalworking section with my query unless a mod can transfer this over for me?

Please? Pretty please?

Martin.


----------



## AES (16 Jul 2017)

If it helps at all, my own Chinese mini lathe has been nothing but a source of great pleasure, satisfaction, and huge usefulness. Always wanted a lathe and it's been one of those "how on earth did I manage without it?" type purchases.

Mine is not a Sieg but was sold under the Einhell badge (Germany) but was actually made by, I believe, a competitor of Sieg's called "Red Dog" or something similar.

My lathe did need a bit of prep, and mods such as a better cover for the ON/OFF switch, QC tool post and QR tailstock (instead of the fiddly nut and bolt idea).

I believe some at least of the Sieg accessories fit mine (and vice-versa) and also believe that the majority of bad reviews are from the early days (at least 10 years ago?) when Chinese QC was, at best "minimal" - BAD assembly, casting sand left in the works, covered in "chicken fat", etc. But according to all I've read/heard, the Chinese have certainly tightened up their act these days, especially if buying from a recognised UK source.

You'll find Arc Euro Trade an invaluable source of both info and sensibly-priced accessories - see link in the sticky at the top of the Metal Working section here - usual disclaimers from me. The 2 books they sell on mini lathes are especially helpful if you're starting from scratch, and their web site also has a long sticky about prepping the lathes.

O.K. this will NOT even come close to a Myford for example, and certainly not a Colchester and the other big boys noted above, but the budget IS "sensible" and provided you allow for the lack of rigidity that is inherent in a comparatively light weight machine (mine sits on a small wheeled bench) the price/performance ratio IF used carefully, and with a bit of knowledge, will well repay the investment if you want to get into this. P.S. Re budget, allow AT LEAST the initial cost of the machine itself for "accessories" such as tooling, chucks, centres, steadies, etc, etc. But if buying SH that comment probably does not apply.

I even use mine for some general wood turning (NOT bowls) - don't tell the purists please!

In short, current Chinese Mini-lathes are IMO highly recommended, and a "sensibly-priced" way into workshop machining with brand new equipment - though note, if you wait long enough, SH buys often improve the cost/use ratio, IF you can find out exactly what you're buying before parting with the hard-earned.

HTH (& encourages!)

AES

P.S. I do NOT KNOW this Martin, but as the OP, you MAY be able to cut and paste the whole of this thread, cutting it out of this present section and pasting it into the MW section. Worth a try - save the lot into Word or something before you try, that way you won't loose anything.

Good luck.


----------



## MJP (16 Jul 2017)

Thanks AES.

This is most encouraging - I'm wanting to buy a lathe "just because", which isn't the best of reasons, so I'm not really up to filling the space with a Myford or suchlike.

In addition, access to my workshop is tricky - I would have to carry/drag the lathe part way, so again a Mini Lathe sounds a better bet.

Looking around, I've naturally drifted up in price (don't we all?) and been drooling over a Warco WM180 but again, bearing in mind that I might use the lathe for five minutes then lose interest, I think a Sieg/Einhell would make more sense. 

I've come across Arc Euro and would certainly buy from someone like that rather than some fly by night seller on ebay, for example. 

I'll try C&Ping into the metalworking section later today - no idea if it'll work, not much good at that kind of thing, but nothing to lose!

Thanks again for your advice - it's appreciated.

Martin.


----------



## AES (16 Jul 2017)

My pleasure Martin - but I can assure you, it'll take a LOT more than 5 minutes for you to get bored with the whole thing - even if you've only got the attention span of a gnat!!

Like anything else in this "hobby-bodging" game, you'll find it very absorbing, and going up the learning curve until you're able to, for example, repair a broken part on a tool - or even better, on a piece of kitchen equipment - MAX brownie points scored then - is really something of a great feeling, even if it turns out afterwards that you could have bought the part for a fiver on e-bay.

Those 2 books on the mini lathe, a search around on this Forum, and a visit or two to the Model Engineering web site (link also on the sticky at the top of the MW section) will probably hook you for life.

Good luck

AES

P.S. It looks like your pretty please has been answered - it looks to me as if you ARE now in the MW section.


----------



## MJP (16 Jul 2017)

Again, thanks AES.

Yes, the Forum Gods have answered my prayer and moved me - Excellent!

I have played about a bit with full sized industrial lathes years ago in a past life, and can well remember how fulfilling it was to reveal a finished item from a piece of bar, so I guess it'll keep me happy for a good while.

Yes, I came across the Model Engineering website earlier today - another one to waste time on instead of working!

I'm looking at the Amadeal CJ18A now, narrowing things down. I'll make my mind up eventually.

This is a downward path to poverty, I strongly suspect.....

Martin.


----------



## AES (16 Jul 2017)

Quote: "This is a downward path to poverty, I strongly suspect....." Unquote:

Oh YEEES!

AES


----------



## niagra (16 Jul 2017)

What about an ML10? Got mine for £500 plus about another £500 for loads of tools for it. Myfordboy on Youtube uses one, so check out his vids to see what it can do.


----------



## MJP (16 Jul 2017)

Hi Niagra - thanks for pointing this out.

That's a nice machine, looks far closer to my needs than a Seven. I'll add it to the list of possibles.

More research to be done.

Martin.


----------



## chaoticbob (16 Jul 2017)

I was in a similar quandry maybe ten years ago - I wanted (rather than needed!) a small benchtop engineering lathe, and was confused by the conflicting reviews of the Chinese machines. I also looked at the ML10, but they seemed few and far between and I was nervous about buying a S/H machine. No doubt there are good un's out there at reasonable prices, but there are also dogs which people try to sell on, trading on the cachet of the Myford name. Caveat emptor.

I eventually bought a new Proxxon PDF400, which is has roughly the same specs as the C3, but costs 3x more. It's nicely made, but if I had my time again, knowing what I do now, I'd go for a C3 and save myself ££s. Some of the reviews on t'internet refer to early models - my impression is that Sieg et al have upped their game over recent years. I now have a generic 12x36 Chinese job bought a couple of years ago, and it's been fine.

Rob.


----------



## MJP (17 Jul 2017)

An excellent contribution Rob, which reinforces what others have said - basically, a present-day Sieg clone is probably OK.
Bearing in mind that an old Sieg may not be as sound as a new one, I think you've finally made my mind up - unless a real bargain pops up second hand in the next few weeks that justifies taking a risk with an old one, it will be a new SC3 of one form or another. 
Thanks again!

Martin.


----------



## Blockplane (17 Jul 2017)

If you haven't already bought a copy of 'The Amateur's Lathe' by L.H. Sparey I recommend you do so.

Have you looked at Tony Griffiths' website - www.lathes.co.uk yet ? Again a valuable resource and the advice on buying a lathe is well worth a read. 'For Sale' section there too, which may have something to interst you.

Personally I would recommend you go for a "golden oldie" rather than a modern lathe. 
The modern ones tend to be more lightly built and run at higher speeds. Without a 'Back Gear' (which seems to be missiong on a lot of the small modern lathes) you will struggle to do such jobs as cutting threads and winding springs.


----------



## MJP (17 Jul 2017)

Thanks Blockplane.

Yes, I've discovered Lathes.co.uk and I'll be getting a couple of lathe books shortly.

I understand the "old vs new" argument but bear in mind that I know nothing about lathes and could easily buy a pup - as Bob said, with Myfords for example, there do appear to be some very rough old dogs being offered for £600 to £800 and since I will be buying more or less blind, it's all a bit risky. 

I think I'm more or less settled on either a new "Mini lathe" or a second hand item which is such a bargain that if it turned out to be a dog then I can swallow it.

And of course, I have no idea why I want a lathe anyway, so whatever I buy could either be just the job or exactly the opposite!

Martin.


----------



## AES (17 Jul 2017)

Martin, +1 for Blockplane's post about the Sparey book. It's an old book, has some lathe tools in it that you're unlikely to ever see, BUT it's a goldmine of basic "how to" info for beginner's - stuff that does NOT "age harden"!

Glad you've found the Lathes web site.

Getting interesting, isn't it?  

AES


----------



## MJP (17 Jul 2017)

Just like always AES - begin a new facet of practical work and you fall through the rabbit hole!

I've just ordered a copy of Sparey's book and I think I've more or less decided what I'm going to buy.

Until someone changes my mind again...

Martin.


----------



## MJP (17 Jul 2017)

Regarding Blockplane's comment on the BackGear - I've now read this up on the Lathes website (and what a goldmine of information that site is!) I think I do need this - I imagine myself making little twiddly knobs and things and the need to thread them on occasion sounds likely.

Can I take it that the Chinese minilathes will not do threading? Are there any that actually can do this?

Will the Warco WM180, with variable speed down to zero (or so they claim) have enough torque to do thread cutting?

Am I destined to *have to* buy an old lathe - an ML10 or suchlike to be able to thread?

So many questions...

Martin.


----------



## Blockplane (17 Jul 2017)

Unless you are cutting chunky square or acme threads - leadscrews, vice/clamp screws etc, you wion't need that much torque - it is the slow speed that counts.

There is one way of getting round lack of backgear on a small lathe - use a hand crank mounted on the outboard end of the mandrel. I doubt they are made as accessories for the Far-Eastern lathes though, so you will need to improvise.

If you are wanting to thread the stems of small knobs, a tailstock mounted die holder is the way to got - which makes me think of another point.......... the smaller the lathe, the smaller the Morse Taper in the head and tailstock, which limits the number of accessories you can use. As a case in point, said die holders are readily available in 2MT, but i've only seen one with a no 1 taper, and that was on fleabay last week. - having said that, once you have a lathe you can make your own  drgs on page 56 of the Sparey book.


----------



## MJP (17 Jul 2017)

OK - so chances are that the Warco WM180 will do the job then.

And it's 2MT as well, which helps I suppose.

I'm really getting into much deeper water here than I had at first anticipated - we've gone a long way from "I fancy a little lathe" to "slow enough for threading". 

But I'm learning all the time, and the more I learn, the less chance I have of buying something totally unsuitable.

Martin.


----------



## AES (17 Jul 2017)

NO, ALL the mini lathes that I know about WILL cut threads, wind coils, etc - UNLESS you're doing big chunky square or Acme threads that is. And I don't think you're looking for that, are you? Otherwise you're back to the big boys machines.

And backgear is not necessary on these lathes because of the electronic speed control, which typically goes down to about 50 or 60 rpm, which is fine for that work if the diameters are within the capacity of the lathe. The only "problem" is that the speed control does reduce the torque available, but this is a SMALL lathe, so as above, unless you're doing big chunky threads, it's not a problem in reality.

And on the US Mini Lathe web site you'll see at least 1 article on how to make a manual handle for turning the lead screw by hand (and Arc, amongst others has all the bits you need). But although I mean to make that mod "some fine wet day" I have cut some threads with the lathe in low speed without problems, so in my reality anyway, a manual lead screw falls into the "nice to have" rather than the "must have" category.

ALSO my mini lathe has MT 2 and 3 tapers, so NO problem with accessories such as centres, die holders, etc - plenty available, again Arc amongst others.

AES


----------



## MJP (17 Jul 2017)

OK then - so anything half decent as long as it's MT2.

I've gone around the houses these past couple of days...Sieg...Warco...ML10...and back again.

I'll keep an eye out for used machines for a while, see what's about.

I might end up with an ML7 after all!

Martin.


----------



## dickm (17 Jul 2017)

No idea about Warco these days, but our University workshop bought one of their "Super 7 Copies" back in the early 90s and it was carp. Lots of red faces and the budget had to be upped significantly.


----------



## J-G (17 Jul 2017)

dickm":1uz031fx said:


> No idea about Warco these days, but our University workshop bought one of their "Super 7 Copies" back in the early 90s and it was carp. Lots of red faces and the budget had to be upped significantly.


One can only speak as one finds and I had avoided WARCO for many years - based on similar reports - before looking seriously at their milling machines last year.

I had done a deal of research and settled upon the Chester Equivalent but during my visit to the Midlands Model Engineering Exhibition in October I ventured onto the WARCO stand and became conflicted !!

There were a few minor differences in the spec. but ultimately I switched to the WARCO unit - I think the 'show deal' might have had a bearing  

On unpacking and setting up I was happy with it, noting the 'touch-up' paint supplied "in case of transit scuffs". The problem came about when nothing happened at 'Switch On' - not even power lights or speed display - checking the two fuses didn't resolve it. An e-mail elicited a quick phone call from them which resulted in the solution that the 'Emergency Switch' could well have been pressed. Sure enough that was the problem. It was the first 'New' machine I'd bought since "EU 'elf & safety" had reared its ugly head so wasn't aware of the need to protect one from oneself  

I've had no reason to complain about any aspect of it - but it is less than 12 months old.


----------



## AES (17 Jul 2017)

Yeah, there's lots of conflicting advice about, so I do sympathise with the OP. In my case, like him, I "just fancied" a lathe (had done for a long time), so when I saw mine in the local DIY Emporium at a GOOD price 7 or 8 years ago now, I just plunged, and then did my research afterwards. Never regretted it once - but perhaps I was just lucky?

As it happens, I was lucky, 'cos as I said in my original post in reply to the OP (Martin), the purchase, and the subsequent tooling and accessories have (and still do) delight me every day. Not saying I wouldn't want a Myford (or even bigger), AND a mill too please - PRETTY PLEASE!!! - but fact is, budgets DO have to be considered (OAP and all that). 

There's no doubt there's some good S/H stuff about, IF you know what you're doing, but going into it blind, like the OP is right now, my own advice would be buy new - and from a reputable dealer too. 

That's because from all I read and hear, there's a lot of "S/H big trouble" around as well as the good, fully-tooled bargains, while again, from all I've read & heard, these days, the Chinese can - and do - produce a lot new of bang for the buck - and with reasonable quality too.

In fact, in my own case, even allowing for 7 or 8 years of inflation, and for the DIY shop special deal, I have ended up with a workable set up which serves me well, all for a total sum of roughly one quarter of the 4K-odd £s that I've seen advertised for Myfords recently - and that's including all the bits and pieces, as opposed to a "bare" Myford!

I guess that as always, "yer pays yer money and takes yer choice", but in his position, with the names he's mentioning, he won't go too far wrong IMO - unless he winds up in a couple of years seeing himself building a 10 inch gauge live steam loco or something! In which case he'll still have something "almost new" to sell on at a reasonable price.

HTH Martin.

AES


----------



## MJP (18 Jul 2017)

Dickm, J-G thanks.

I think both these comments reflect what others have said - that early Chinese lathes were rubbish - early 90s was a long time ago - but that present-day quality is considerably better if you stick to established suppliers.

It reinforces my intention not to buy a second hand Chinese offering unless I'm very certain that it's of recent date, so likely to be of decent quality.

Martin.


----------



## MJP (18 Jul 2017)

AES - thanks, just seen your post and it pretty well summarises how I see it now, thanks to everyone's most helpful contributions.

Bearing in mind that I'm 71 and no longer that keen on dragging a 100kg lathe around the garden, it's pretty well certain that I'm going for either a new Chinese product or a second hand one if I can be dead certain that it's of recent manufacture and reliable.

Martin.


----------



## MJP (18 Jul 2017)

I'm pretty well set upon a new Warco WM 180 lathe now.

Is there anyone in South Wales with one of these that they would be happy to let me see and perhaps do a simple demo for me? 

Martin.


----------



## Brian18741 (12 Aug 2017)

Hi Martin, I've enjoyed reading this thread! Did you make a decision yet? I'm in a similar circumstance now having decided I want a metal lathe and milling machine in the same budget and quite liked the look of both offerings from Seig.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk


----------



## MJP (12 Aug 2017)

Hello Brian - 

More or less decided on a CJ18A from Amadeal, either new or second-hand.

I did at first fancy a Warco WM180 but I've been put off to some extent by the paucity of information, comment and reviews - Just one worthwhile video on You Tube, and little else.

While on the other hand, There's stacks about the CJ18A.

And to my mind, one is probably safer buying something that has been talked about, reviewed, tested, to death rather than what seems to be a rather neglected item. 

I could be wrong, of course.

I've dismissed older machines simply because I know nothing about lathes and if I bought a Myford for example, I could well be buying a pup.

I'm sitting back now, waiting to see what fate brings - there are two on the bay at the moment, one quite near me, but the vendor doesn't seem to want to answer questions, which is a bit off- putting. The other is too far away, unfortunately.

If I were to buy a used machine I would want to know its provenance, etc....I don't want to buy a ten/fifteen year old piece of thrown-together Chinese junk!

So it's wait and see. But I expect to be the proud owner of a CJ18A or something of that ilk before long.

- and I've got a nasty feeling that a milling machine could be close behind - the two seem to go together, don't they?

Martin.


----------

