# Small Tenon Saw



## powerhouse (29 Sep 2011)

Hey guys going to invest in a small tenon saw ( carcass saw ) both rip and crosscut.
I have narrowed it down to these three,
Adria small tenon saw 
Pax 1776
Lie- Nielson

Ok I know at the end of the day, it comes down to personal preference, but I cant make my mind up witch make to go for.
I have not used any of these before, so any recommendations would be appreciated.

Cheers

Ken :wink:


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## bugbear (29 Sep 2011)

powerhouse":usnodb8n said:


> Hey guys going to invest in a small tenon saw ( carcass saw ) both rip and crosscut.
> I have narrowed it down to these three,
> Adria small tenon saw
> Pax 1776
> ...



I've had a go with all three (but I only own vintage saws). The Pax is by far the least comfortable, with the handle having pronounced arris. The cutting action was also (only) "OK".

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/index.html

Does anyone *know* the differences between the Lynx and Pax range? I *think* (but am not sure) its mainly the handle, in which case a woodworker skilled with rasp and sandpaper could save a good deal of money.

Adria and LN I can't (usefully) choose between. Both happened to suit my hand very well, the cutting performance was similar, and superior to the Pax.

BugBear


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## dunbarhamlin (29 Sep 2011)

BB said:


> Does anyone _know_ the differences between the Lynx and Pax range? I think (but am not sure) its mainly the handle, in which case a woodworker skilled with rasp and sandpaper could save a good deal of money.


Many moons ago I did ask of the difference, and if I remember apart from the handle and taper grind on some backless saws, it boiled down to hand sharpening.
Could try and dig up the mail exchange, but it was a years ago, so probably better to seek up to date info - I found them most helpful.

Do agree that the finish of the 1776 handle lets in down - though of the three mentioned, having "been at it" with rasp, file and shellac, I now prefer it.

Of course after the first touch up, the _only_ difference is the handle, depth of blade and weight of spine, so this is more important than how well it cuts.
Considering some of the boutique alternatives in the same price bracket, I don't put the LN very far up the food chain.


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## condeesteso (29 Sep 2011)

I think the Veritas has to be on the list... good value, excellent quality, clever design (Axminster have 'em).


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## Modernist (29 Sep 2011)

Personally I found the LN far too light compared to an older saw and sold mine after a week (at a profit  )


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## flounder (29 Sep 2011)

condeesteso":25gxqk6d said:


> I think the Veritas has to be on the list... good value, excellent quality, clever design (Axminster have 'em).



+1


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## bugbear (30 Sep 2011)

flounder":1ns4do9j said:


> condeesteso":1ns4do9j said:
> 
> 
> > I think the Veritas has to be on the list... good value, excellent quality, clever design (Axminster have 'em).
> ...



Agreed. I was respecting the OP's short list. I assume a traditional look was preferred.

BugBear


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## powerhouse (30 Sep 2011)

Thanks for the replays, the Veritas is good value as said, but it's not for me.

Cheers


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## Newbie_Neil (30 Sep 2011)

condeesteso":y4g4qirx said:


> I think the Veritas has to be on the list... good value, excellent quality, clever design (Axminster have 'em).



+1


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## pedder (30 Sep 2011)

Hi,

two more more options come to my mind: Wenzloff & Sons @ Leevalley Carcass saw for 140$. And in UK: Find old Spear & Jackson.

From the 3 you named I onlx tried the Adria and really like her.

Cheers
Pedder


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## condeesteso (30 Sep 2011)

Seeing Pedder's post prompts me of a possible oversight! Could a Two Lawyers be on the list?? I would honestly regard that as a 'lifetime' tool.


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## pedder (30 Sep 2011)

Hi Douglas,

Don't know, our basic open handeled saws start at 170€ (But most people want some extras like the oval spine or a special wood). 

And we have a 4-5 month backlog.

Cheers
Pedder

Edit for typo at the price


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## LuptonM (30 Sep 2011)

If the euro continues as it is, we'll all be buying saws from Pedder!!!!!!!!!

BTW how do u tell if a saw is as sharp as it could be?


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## dunbarhamlin (30 Sep 2011)

Rest it teeth down on your palm and lift off. If it snags, it'll do nicely.


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## pedder (30 Sep 2011)

LuptonM":3l0j666i said:


> If the euro continues as it is, we'll all be buying saws from Pedder!!!!!!!!!
> 
> BTW how do u tell if a saw is as sharp as it could be?



it cuts smooth & fast and doesn't do the slightest jump in the cut:

Cheers
Pedder


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## LuptonM (30 Sep 2011)

Sorry to hijack the thread, its just that in trying to lean to cut dovetails I find my veritas dovetail saw (14 tooth/inch) hard to get started (which affects the straightness of the cut). Would the factory sharpening be sufficient or is it more to do with the amount of set of tpi?


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## condeesteso (30 Sep 2011)

'lean to cut' might be a clue - not sure what that means. But generally 'the first cut is (not) the deepest' . A light start (no pressure, let the blade do the work), and a nearly flat angle to the stock. Once the kerf is established, then raise the angle. Some fine saws have a less aggressive cut at the tip for this reason of starting the cut, but I'm not sure about the Veritas. Generally though, start very gentle, and only when the kerf is made can you safely increase the stroke and make greater progress with total control.


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## pedder (1 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":2djjrq9f said:


> * A light start (no pressure, let the blade do the work),*



That is the main tip, IMO. The Veritas is quite soft to startbecause of the 14° rake angle.

Cheers Pedder


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## d3v (3 Oct 2011)

Can veritas tenon saws by re-sharpened easily?


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## dunbarhamlin (4 Oct 2011)

Yes, they are proper resharpenable saws, not hardpoint.


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":2h95cyu1 said:


> 'lean to cut' might be a clue - not sure what that means......


I agree with that (I think). You start with a straight kerf at 90º for at least 1 mm, but deeper is ok. Then ledge the saw in the kerf and start your angle cut. 
The saw doesn't matter much (DT saws are all the same just about) but the last sharpening does.


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## powerhouse (4 Oct 2011)

As a global mod on a none woodworking forum, I'm well used to threads going totally off topic.
So I would just like to thank the members, that answered the original question.

Cheers
Ken


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## Jacob (4 Oct 2011)

powerhouse":21wcbp41 said:


> As a global mod on a none woodworking forum, I'm well used to threads going totally off topic.
> So I would just like to thank the members, that answered the original question.
> 
> Cheers
> Ken


Thank _you_ for asking it. I apologise for those who didn't stick strictly to the point. Please don't let their ramblings put you off asking another one.
Which plane did you buy in the end?


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## Rob Platt (4 Oct 2011)

Jacob":2h8nc0gt said:


> powerhouse":2h8nc0gt said:
> 
> 
> > As a global mod on a none woodworking forum, I'm well used to threads going totally off topic.
> ...


 
The spitfire liked the design

all the best
rob


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## powerhouse (4 Oct 2011)

=D> Heard it all before guys =D> 
Could admin delete my account please.

Cheers
Ken


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## MickCheese (4 Oct 2011)

powerhouse":2531muok said:


> =D> Heard it all before guys =D>
> Could admin delete my account please.
> 
> Cheers
> Ken



I'll second that, please delete his account.

Does everyone really have to tread on eggshells around here!

If I start a conversation down the pub and it goes 'off track' and then I started to sulk I'd get laughed out of the place.

Grow up.

Mick


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## MIGNAL (4 Oct 2011)

No. Don't see the problem myself. If a thread goes off topic is it such a big deal? Providing the original question was answered in a comprehensive manner of course.


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## Modernist (6 Oct 2011)

After 20 posts in 4 years and a snotty attitude I don't suppose he'll be missed.

Also he brings Geordies into disrepute, unless of course he is a transported southerner.


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## condeesteso (6 Oct 2011)

re 'transported southerner'. I'm a self-declared 'displaced northern git'. Does that mean we cancel each other out?


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## Modernist (6 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":gv7edi9u said:


> re 'transported southerner'. I'm a self-declared 'displaced northern git'. Does that mean we cancel each other out?



No cos he's gone and your still here, and so am I so that's 2 nil


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## Peter Sefton (8 Oct 2011)

powerhouse":24q8wzrq said:


> Hey guys going to invest in a small tenon saw ( carcass saw ) both rip and crosscut.
> I have narrowed it down to these three,
> Adria small tenon saw
> Pax 1776
> ...


Sorry to be late to the party  (I have been starting off my new students) and as part of their efforts to buy new hand tools, we have just tested 11 of the top Dovetail saws for British Woodworking Magazine. =D> 
Including Adria, Ln, Veritas, Cosman, and the English saws. Not to give the plot away and I haven’t finished writing the article yet but, I have just taken delivery of a Pax 1776 12”13 TPI rip tenon saw and a Pax 10” 20 TPI Rip Dovetail saw got them out of the box yesterday put them straight to work doing demonstrations and they are both brilliant. I understand Pax have taken the handle comments on board and improved their act, please don’t give up on Sheffield and our last British saw makers. =D> =D> =D> 

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (8 Oct 2011)

Peter Sefton":2awavq14 said:


> ...... I understand Pax have taken the handle comments on board and improved their act, please don’t give up on Sheffield and our last British saw makers. ......


And if they sharpen them nicely too they are on to a winner! Simple things saws. No reason for them not to be very good, if not perfect.


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## Mr Ed (9 Oct 2011)

Peter Sefton":2hwvn555 said:


> I understand Pax have taken the handle comments on board and improved their act, please don’t give up on Sheffield and our last British saw makers.



I'd be interested to know what has changed Peter. The current handles look so god awful they put me off what are probably otherwise good saws at a good price.

Ed


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2011)

Getting a good quality saw is no prob, it's just the handles nobody likes. We are woodworkers, so why pay someone else to do this simple (after a bit of practice) and interesting little task? 
http://www.woodworkingschool.co.uk/2011 ... o-classic/
Could be a little earner?
The principle difference between the Pax and the Adria offerings on this page would seem to be the handles, and about £80!
I guess the handle is the most expensive part of the Veritas.

So what do you need? Guess list: Small rasps, coping saw, Mora craft knife, sandpaper, few chisels and gouges, anything else? Too small for spoke-shaving.

These look pretty classy but you are clearly paying for the handle as these are just about the same but a lot cheaper


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## Sawyer (9 Oct 2011)

After much deliberation, I recently bought a Pax 1776 10'' 15tpi. A very nice saw indeed: cuts superbly and looks good too. Surprised by the sharp arris left on the handle, but about 90 seconds with sandpaper sorted this out and personalised it a bit too. I could so easily have bought a Lynx or similar and either customised or re-made the handle. I do all my own sharpening, so could have saved myself some money.

So why a 1776?

'Made in Sheffield' counts for a lot. Despite the sorry state of British industry generally, some of the world's best woodworking tools are still being made by companies in Sheffield. We need to use 'em or lose 'em. Despite good, cheaper alternatives _Pax 1776, _is a bit of a classic, so I didn't begrudge Thos. Flinn & Co. the extra money. In the process, I've saved myself the job of re-handling, too.

No doubt Lie-Nielson & Adria are first rate saws, but will they actually _cut _any better than a Pax? As someone has already said, any saw is only as good as its last sharpening.
I'm confident that with care, the 1776 will perform very well for as long as I need it to (and much longer).


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## LuptonM (9 Oct 2011)

I think although all saws are pretty much the same, the smaller details make a better saw and the handles signify how much the maker actually cared about the product. I don't really get the argument "because its made in England I should buy it over x". As patriotic as it is, I would buy what ever I considered to be the better executed product for the price range as it encourages better craftsmanship.


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## Tony Zaffuto (9 Oct 2011)

I've got the LN and I got the Veritas. The Veritas is my "go to", because it feels better in my hand. Cut for cut, there isn't much difference, so my opinion is simply based on tactile feel.


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2011)

LuptonM":2g08ifij said:


> .... I don't really get the argument "because its made in England I should buy it over x". ...


I've never got the argument that only the fashionable and expensive products of a small number of American makers are any good and everything else is rubbish.
I hope the Brit makers don't get left behind in the flavoured handles stakes. Marmite, Cheese n Onion, beef n horseradish, etc?


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## Paul Chapman (9 Oct 2011)

Jacob":1hiiy20h said:


> 've never got the argument that only the fashionable and expensive products of a small number of American makers are any good and everything else is rubbish.



So, who said that, Jacob?

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2011)

Paul Chapman":11bmil1x said:


> Jacob":11bmil1x said:
> 
> 
> > 've never got the argument that only the fashionable and expensive products of a small number of American makers are any good and everything else is rubbish.
> ...


Hmm... lemme think.. er. 
Well there was a chap called Paul Chapman who used to talk about Stanley products in the darkest terms, as though Stanley himself had done him a personal (and perhaps unmentionable :shock: ) injury! :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (9 Oct 2011)

Jacob":2uekkbmk said:


> Paul Chapman":2uekkbmk said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":2uekkbmk said:
> ...



I was talking about Stanley UK as well as the US company.

Try again.....

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2011)

Paul Chapman":32gmqs2n said:


> ...
> Try again.....
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> ...


Try what again? You've admitted it haven't you? 
There were (are )plenty of others banging on with details and variations on the same theme!


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## woodbloke (9 Oct 2011)

Mr Ed":3qhei5fl said:


> The current handles look so god awful they put me off what are probably otherwise good saws at a good price.
> 
> Ed


I reviewed a couple of Pax hand saws a while back for F&C and if memory serves, I slated Pax about the awful handles...that might have had something to do with it - Rob


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## Peter Sefton (9 Oct 2011)

Mr Ed":3a3ooger said:


> Peter Sefton":3a3ooger said:
> 
> 
> > I understand Pax have taken the handle comments on board and improved their act, please don’t give up on Sheffield and our last British saw makers.
> ...



Hi Ed

I have the Veritas Dovetail saws and the Atkinson Walker Tenon saws in my student tool kits and for the money they are both very good. I have found the Veritas handles are now becoming a little loose and although the tenon saws cut fairly well neither are as good as the 1776. 

I understand Flinn now make the handles in house, so I believe they have improved. We have all got our own preference as to how something feels in our hand, I have not removed any arris from the saw handles I have recently tested, but as Jacob says, you can re-shape saw handles to suit your own grip. No one manufacturer will be able to make a saw handle that suits everyone.

I’ll be using the 1776 when I am demonstrating at Harrogate so hope to seem some UKWS members there. Do call by and have a look – see what you think …

Cheers

Peter


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## Sawyer (9 Oct 2011)

LuptonM":ydodjeck said:


> I think although all saws are pretty much the same, the smaller details make a better saw and the handles signify how much the maker actually cared about the product. I don't really get the argument "because its made in England I should buy it over x". As patriotic as it is, I would buy what ever I considered to be the better executed product for the price range as it encourages better craftsmanship.


Let's be clear: I didn't buy a Pax, _just_ because it's made in England; but because I had concluded that it was a high quality saw. Also, competitive in price vs. Lie-Nielson, Adria, Wenzloff, &c. 'Made in Sheffield' is just one of several factors I take into consideration. I thought carefully about a Veritas too, but the plastic spine just doesn't appeal. I also own non-British tools by the way, but all things considered, I chose to support a Sheffield maker on this occasion.
Not everybody likes the 1776 handles, but they seem alright to me. After all, it's for the workshop, not the mantlepiece!


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2011)

Peter Sefton":2dt0l2eh said:


> I have found the Veritas handles are now becoming a little loose...



Anything tightening the nut won't fix?







BugBear


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2011)

Jacob":1lha88be said:


> http://www.woodworkingschool.co.uk/2011 ... o-classic/
> Could be a little earner?



I suggest you go and tell the idiots at Thomas Flynn how easy, quick and cheap it is to make a good handle. They'll be _ever so_ grateful.

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Oct 2011)

bugbear":sd2gnox8 said:


> Jacob":sd2gnox8 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.woodworkingschool.co.uk/2011 ... o-classic/
> ...


Trolling again BB. Girly sarcasm. This is so tedious. Please stop doing it. You are really boring. Nobody wants to read this stuff. You are not in the fifth form now.

If you bother to read my post you will see that I did not say that is was easy quick and cheap to make a good handle. Simple, yes, (after a bit of practice) for a competent woodworker. But not quick or cheap - which is precisely why the problem is under discussion, and the reason for my DIY suggestion. Not exactly a radical or unusual suggestion either.
Could be a little earner for anybody who wanted to specialise. Why not? These things seem to be in demand.
I'll explain a little more - a "specialist" can have an enhanced role in doing difficult things by concentrating his attention over a narrow area or a single topic.
Please don't bother to reply to this, you have nothing interesting to say and you will only annoy people.


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2011)

Jacob":wypmbz7q said:


> you have nothing interesting to say and you will only annoy people.


_
I just had a really good idea. Could be the booze speaking. But what about re-inventing the wheel? Seems obvious to me. Long overdue. It has been unchanged for far too long.
Anybody got any suggestions?

PS Caramel flavour - pineapple*n genius!! Steve Jobs, where are you now!!_

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Oct 2011)

Trolling along.
At least you are not deliberately misquoting this time, though you don't seem to have anything interesting to say yourself, as usual.
Ever done any woodwork BB? You should try it one day.


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## MIGNAL (10 Oct 2011)

Here's one that I shaped:












A modern Spear and Jackson saw that I picked up for £20. Even the Roberts & Lee saw that I bought in the early 80's had an awful handle. Sometimes you are limited by the amount of wood on the handle, the above S&J was a little thin. I'll post a picture of the Roberts & Lee, which gave me much more scope for reforming the handle.


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## clk230 (10 Oct 2011)

looks a nice handle . 

shock horror that a woodworker would re shape a wooden handle whatever next :mrgreen:


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## Modernist (10 Oct 2011)

The handles were so appalling on my S & J's of 1980's vintage I used them as fuel and made two replacements in the style of Diston out of a piece of Bubinga. Now they are a pleasure to use and they blades were always OK (S & J Professional range)


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## bugbear (10 Oct 2011)

Didn't one of the handtool dealers arrange a supply of (effectively) kit saws from a manufacturer?

It was a kit only in the that the handle was supplied as a bandsawn profile, with only the drilling done.

Shaping and finishing was left to the buyer. The rest of the saw was completely finished.

I've done a quick google, but I can't find it.

Anyone?

Edit; It was the "Atkinson Walker's No.168 kit" at Workshop Heaven - the normal 168 was a 10" 14tpi rip tenon saw, so I assume the kit was too.

No longer on the WH site, so I guess the idea wasn't successful.

Bugbear


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## Sawyer (10 Oct 2011)

Jacob":1y9w460s said:


> bugbear":1y9w460s said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1y9w460s said:
> ...


Jacob, I agree: making a good saw handle is not difficult: it's not a five minute job either and my time costs money, even to myself. Re-working an existing 'clunker' is a good compromise as it saves much time and you don't even need to root around for a suitable offcut of wood.

I don't understand why so much scorn is heaped on the 1776 handles; I think they are alright. Not as nice as if some master sawmaker had spent ages lovingly hand crafting it (at a price and would it fit my own hand anyway?), but good enough for day to day work at the bench. Yes, I could spend lots of time re-working it, but it's adequate and I don't need to. The handle looks reasonable and to _my _hand, is very comfortable. What more do I need in an everyday work tool handle?

Assuming that I wanted a Pax, I could have bought effectively the same metalwork, with beech handle for £32 less and re-handled it. I'm happy with the 1776 handle, so it has cost me an extra £32, _minus _my time (at least an hour, I should think).


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## Harbo (10 Oct 2011)

I have just looked at the prices: the Pax 1776 is £10, a similar Wenzloff is $150 with the handcrafted handle!

I modified a crappy Crown handle a while back:







And here's two Gramercy saw kits I made up:







Rod


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