# Record 050c



## Anonymous (1 Feb 2005)

Hi All,

I obtained one of these planes for Xmas, (a present to myself), but do not have an instruction book. Does anyone have a copy, and are the tools really meant for use on hardwoods? Experiments on softwood have been disappointing despite a really sharp blade.

Thanks,

Gordon


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## Alf (1 Feb 2005)

Gordon,

The #050c, that's the one with the black plastic, Design Centre Award-winning handle I think? Er, this one? Someone may come up with some instructions, but in the meantime the basic operation of the thing will be similar to all the other metal ploughs and combis, so you might find some of the instruction linked to here helpful. 

As you surmise, sharp blades are important, as is a fairly light cut. The key technique though is to start at the end furthest from you. Take a cut starting 3" or 4" back from the end, then the second one a bit further back (i.e. nearer to you), the third a little further back again, and so forth until you're taking strokes along the whole length. Interestingly I bought a copy of The Woodworker yesterday, for the first time in ages, and it says firmly that these planes are no good for softwoods. News to me, I must say. But it's true that some softwoods really are totally pains to plane, which may not be helping matters. Hardwoods are generally considered to be where the trouble arises, but as long as you're using reasonably straight-grained stock it's perfectly do-able. Oh, one thing to check; make sure the skates are straight, and also parallel to one another when you set the plane up. That can make life tricky if they're not. And a scribble of candle end on the sides and bottoms of the skates and side of the fence is often helpful too.

Sorry, all rather dis-jointed. Bit of a brain dump, but it might be useful. Yell again with more details if you think I might be able to help any more.

Cheers, Alf


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## Bean (1 Feb 2005)

Ta Alf a nice link for existing 45 owners too  

Bean


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## Anonymous (1 Feb 2005)

Thanks for that Alf, much appreciated. 

I have since tried it on a scrap of mahogany from an old fireplace and it works pretty well. Seems the fence is not straight along its' full length though when a straight edge is placed along it. It is bent away from the body of the plane at the position of the rear screw hole for attaching an auxiliary fence. I suppose I could always shim out an auxiliary fence to get a full length, straight fence.

Also, after rummaging about in cupboards I managed to unearth my long lost copy of Planecraft by John Sainsbury, which has a whole section on the no.50 and 50c.


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## Shady (1 Feb 2005)

Sorry, but they are fundamentally flawed... A classic example of the results of attempting to be 'jack of all'.... The depth skates are too short, and all comments from serious users are that stock selection is key (eg, straight grained and uniform wood), because they can't cope with anything else. 

You've already hit on the importance of razor sharp edges: Alf's points are also good. I'm not trying to be negative, but they are acknowledged as monsters to tune and use effectively. 45 is even worse. Your best bet is to slowly replace it with specific moulding/rebating/dadoing planes as you need them, until you can replace the hideous plastic composite handles with rosewood, and mount it in a display case as a curio for visitors...


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## Alf (1 Feb 2005)

Shady,

You ghastly cynic, go away.  So they need a little love, affection and understanding to work? Don't we all? :roll: 



Shady":1z58q3o1 said:


> they are acknowledged as monsters to tune and use effectively


Yep. By people who can't do it. S'like "you can't joint an edge with a cambered blade/straight ground blade (delete as desired)" arguments; sure you can, but the guy saying you can't *can't*. I blame Blood & Gore... :evil: 

Cheers, Alf

Fully paid-up member of the combi and universal plane lover's society. Maybe not the later ones though...


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## Shady (1 Feb 2005)

He he - I knew she'd bite... 8) 

Alf - I quite agree they can be made to work, but it goes back to a discussion we've had elsewhere: in my view, the best tools are those that are designed to do a particular job, to the best of their ability. think a woodie rebate plane, funnily enough... :wink: 

Things like these, or the clifton '3 in 1' , are compromised at birth - a horse designed by a committee..


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## Anonymous (1 Feb 2005)

Hi Alf,

Looks like the unbelievers are trying to force us in to a corner  

I do have two routers for making mouldings etc, but bought the plane to see if I could do things the traditional way. If it doesn't pan out, no big deal!

On a separate theme, does anyone have any good/negative opinions on the Stanley 93? I hear that older ones are relatively ok, but new ones are to be avoided?

Cheers,

Gordon


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## Anonymous (1 Feb 2005)

Shady":3cbknse8 said:


> Sorry, but they are fundamentally flawed... A classic example of the results of attempting to be 'jack of all'.... The depth skates are too short, and all comments from serious users are that stock selection is key (eg, straight grained and uniform wood), because they can't cope with anything else.
> 
> You've already hit on the importance of razor sharp edges: Alf's points are also good. I'm not trying to be negative, but they are acknowledged as monsters to tune and use effectively. 45 is even worse. Your best bet is to slowly replace it with specific moulding/rebating/dadoing planes as you need them, until you can replace the hideous plastic composite handles with rosewood, and mount it in a display case as a curio for visitors...



Alf, it's time to break out the brass knuckles on this crew :lol: .

The #50 and #45 are fine planes and not difficult to set up. That said, they are NOT moulding/rebating/dadoing planes. Their primary function is that of a plow plane and they do that job as well as any woody over a greater range of sizes. I used my #45 to plow 3/4" wide x 3/4" deep grooves in the rails of the doors for my storage shed. It was easy, accurate and efficient. What other plane would be appropriate?
The #50 & #45 come with beading blades and do a fair job especially in the smaller sizes. The #45 also will do a good job of small reeds and flutes but that is about the extent of molding capabilities. 
The #45 does a good job of T&G joints. Not as good as dedicated T&G planes but can work on a far greater range of stock thicknesses.
I would have no hesitation of cutting a rabbet or dado with my #45 if I didn't have other planes available. For instance, I don't have a 1/4" dado plane. No problem, I just grab the #45. Now if I cut 1/4" dados on a regular basis, I would find a 1/4" woody dado but no need to stop progress in the meantime.


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## Shady (1 Feb 2005)

> I used my #45 to plow 3/4" wide x 3/4" deep grooves in the rails of the doors for my storage shed. It was easy, accurate and efficient. What other plane would be appropriate?



Any shoulder or rebate plane smaller than 3/4" wide by 3/4" deep. by the time you'd finished twiddling the doohickey on the thrubdiddler on your 45/50, I'd 'a clamped a stop where I needed it and started curling the shavings up until I hit it.. 

Case closed, my lover of fine but rococco engineering.., :wink:


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## Bean (1 Feb 2005)

Shady I hear what you are saying, and like Alf I have both types of plane, but I have to agree with Roger Nixon that I would have used my 45 I cursed it mildly when I first got it but now I love it, the most versatile plane I own  

Bean


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## Anonymous (2 Feb 2005)

Shady":3a7eii8u said:


> > I used my #45 to plow 3/4" wide x 3/4" deep grooves in the rails of the doors for my storage shed. It was easy, accurate and efficient. What other plane would be appropriate?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No way! A _shoulder plane_? I'm not taking 300 passes at .002". Talk about using a tool not designed for the purpose. 
I made the rails of these doors out of 2x4's that were 16' long. I cut the grooves and then cut the rails and stiles to length and made stub tenons on the stiles. To center a rebate you would have to make a 16' long x 3/8" wide batten and figure out a way to clamp it in place and keep it straight. If the rebate was less than 3/4" wide you would have to have two in order to center the plane on the rail. And then there is the matter of no depth stop. I've seen lots of rebates with holes in them where people have jury rigged fences on them. Again, this is not the tool for the job. 
Setting the #45 is a simple matter of installing a 3/4" blade, setting the plane on the center of the stock and moving the fence in to touch the side of the rail. Place a scrap of the 3/4" plywood panel under the depth stop to set it and it is ready to go. 
I find it strange you would criticize a multi-plane but then be willng to use a dedicated plane for a task it wasn't designed for. Don't fear the #45, my friend. The problems are all in your mind. :lol:


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## Shady (2 Feb 2005)

Sorry Roger, I was assuming with your love of the ultimate 'adjusto-nerd's toy' that you'd have shoulder planes with adjustable mouths... :wink: 

Nah - just kiddin. Obviously a lot of people here get great results from them - good for you all. I just remain convinced that a design that stems from a (very sensible) marketing realisation that one multi-plane would be far more attractive to a journeyman carpenter with limited tool carriage space than lots of dedicated but less versatile models, is not a great woodworking design. It's a great piece of plane-making, but that's just my take.

And seriously Roger, joking aside, in your situation I'd probably have knocked up a dedicated woodie for the job. It's even more accurate, because you can 'build in' the precise depth stop you want by stepping the plane's cheeks up from the centre blocks that form the sole. I've got a picture somewhere, but I'm sure you know what I mean - I've even seen them built around a chisel of the desired width before now. Also allows you to set the bedding angle for the particular wood to hand.


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## Alf (2 Feb 2005)

gogser":29mohrd2 said:


> On a separate theme, does anyone have any good/negative opinions on the Stanley 93? I hear that older ones are relatively ok, but new ones are to be avoided?


Pretty much. Seriously look into the Veritas shoulders instead; infinitely superior planes IMO, and Rob's still not paying me to say that. Heaven knows I've tried, but... :wink: :lol: 



Roger Nixon":29mohrd2 said:


> The #50 and #45 are fine planes and not difficult to set up. That said, they are NOT moulding/rebating/dadoing planes.


Roger, who's side are you *on*?! I can't recall the last time I used a router for a moulding, and all my woodie moulders are U/S until I get some major tuning done. One of the reasons I like the #405 over the #45 is the lovely little ovolo cutters I have for it. 'Course for dadoes a #46 is preferable, but they're a bit rare over here.



Shady":29mohrd2 said:


> Any shoulder or rebate plane


Shoulder plane?! For _grooves_? Oi vey...



Roger Nixon":29mohrd2 said:


> I've seen lots of rebates with holes in them where people have jury rigged fences on them.


I have a user modified (I think) rebate that's essentially been turned into a moving fillister with a fence and depth stop. I ought to put a pic or two up of it, 'cos it's quite a good solution to how to adapt a woodie rebate for other jobs. Not as good as the proper tool for the job though, natch... :wink: 

I dunno, combis have a lot in common with the Woodrat. When you understand them you tend to turn into a bit of an evangelist about 'em. And if you don't get 'em, nothing in the world will get the scales to fall from your eyes. I shall leave Shady in his self-imposed darkness I think. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Shady (2 Feb 2005)

The Light!, the Light!!! it burns... :lol:


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## Alf (2 Feb 2005)

Shady":33kfpfwh said:


> The Light!, the Light!!! it burns... :lol:


LOL! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## dickm (2 Feb 2005)

Alf":1dftp54f said:


> you might find some of the instruction linked to here helpful.



Thanks for that quote - it also answered my separate question about the 50 - I now see that I <do> have the appropriate blade holding screw. But I still don't find it works very well!


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## Anonymous (2 Feb 2005)

Shady, the point is I use the best tool I have for the task at hand. Planes like the #50 and #45 are first and formost plow planes. At this they are as good as any wooden plow and have a much greater range. Even #45 hater Patrick Leach admits as much " It also ploughs about as well as any wooden plane, but that's because wooden ploughs, like the #45, do not have a complete bearing surface ahead of the cutter. " 
Now, I am a firm believer is dedicated tools. One of my favorite planes is a woody drawer bottom plane. It cuts a 1/4" deep x 1/4" wide groove 1/4" away from an edge. It does one common task and does it well. And no, I don't have an ajustable mouth or a depth adjuster or a lateral adjuster on my infill shoulder plane. Why should I? It is a dedicated tool for trimming shoulders. I don't use it on rebates or on dados and I sure don't try to plow grooves with it!
Since you want to make your shoulder plane a "multiplane" that plows grooves, you might need to twiddle some doohickeys and thrubdiddlers. While you are at it, drill some holes in the side of it and screw on a fence and a depth stop. :lol: 

Alf, you humbled me the last time I challenged your claim of superiority of the Record #405 over the Stanley #45. I won't make that mistake again. :lol:. I really haven't explored the #45 much for doing molding. I've used it for situations where I don't have an appropriate woodies such as beads smaller than 1/4" and for some small reeds (even Leach says he would use a #45 for reeding!). I have rebate and filletster planes for cutting rebates and don't see a need to use a #45 even though it is possible. I have a couple of dado planes that handle most of my needs (I need to get at least two more) but I wouldn't hesitate to use a #45 for a size I didn't have. 
I don't know if anyone here except Alf and Bugbear frequented the old Badger Pond forum but there was a man named Stephen Thomas who used to post there. He had an architectural woodwork business and he was a champion of the #45. He talked about using "guttered" blades in the #45 for dados to eliminate the need for using the nickers and setting the skates precisely. Now Stephen could have and use any plane he wanted (he is the inventor/maker of the incredible "Loopy" infill) and, in situations were time and accuracy are money to him, the #45 is one of his main planes.
Again a multiplane is not the best tool for all jobs but I'll stick with a #50 and a #45 as my plow planes of choice (I'd gladly add a Record 043 in there) and will gladly use it for the tasks where I don't have a specialized tool.


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