# router failure in router tables



## ronhayles (18 Jul 2008)

router failures in router tables. Is there a router table with a built in motor protected from shaver/dust fallout


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## neilyweely (18 Jul 2008)

well its not the little performance power thing I got at auction last month,
has EXACTLY that problem. I have to stick the hoover hose over the router bit and clean it out every five minutes.

will be watching with interest.

cheers

neil


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## George_N (18 Jul 2008)

Hi and welcome to the forum.
I think what you have just described is a spindle moulder. As for routers, the Triton ones are specifically designed for table use, with air vents that face downwards when the router is inverted in the table. HTH.


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## ronhayles (18 Jul 2008)

a spindle moulder will make all my router bits redundent. I had thought that a manufacter would produce a table model with an inbuilt motor. Could the woodster bench top shaper do an effective job of routing small work pieces such as clocks and small boxes? Any experience would be a guide for me. I have the baby woodrat but cannot master this


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## Digit (18 Jul 2008)

I have attached a piece of polycarbonate to my router that just passes through the hole in the table top and just clears the collect holder. Any dust that falls through the table insert lands on the poly and then just shakes off instead of being drawn into the router.

Roy.


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## Michael7 (18 Jul 2008)

If you're going to be doing small stuff what about this

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... =1&jump=44

100w doesn't seem much power though


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## ronhayles (18 Jul 2008)

I know this model. Its for dolls house work and would not take my half inch router bits. The woodstar 1500 watts model seems a better bet and will take half inch bits but the specs are skimpy. I need someone with experience of this make. I really need a bench top machine and most router machines mounted under a table sits too high for safety on a bench but thanks for the tip of preventing dust ruining router motors


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## ivan (19 Jul 2008)

No problem if you use the router's dust extraction whilst fitted in the table; 'under the table' extraction is necessary as well as above if you want reasonable dust control, so you can protect your lungs as well as your router!


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## ike (21 Jul 2008)

My router _blows_ air out of the business end, Therefore while running in the router table, it can't get clogged with dust or shavings. I assume all routers blow air in the same direction otherwise you would get a faceful using it by hand. Either that or mine is unique. I use the chop saw on top of the table most of the time. When I come to use the table, the router is invariably covered with sawdust but just blows it all clean out on startup. Either way, it's not a problem.

Ike


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## Grinding One (21 Jul 2008)

The Aussie router Triton has a neat housing of plastic around the shaft,it keeps the motor pretty well covered for under table mount work.At least mine does,just hooked up a shop vac to it and cool running.


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## ronhayles (21 Jul 2008)

Thanks for your advice guys. Believe me, if you have not had a bearing failure through dust falling on the motor you have been luckier than I have. I think that a purpose made table with an inbuilt motor as opposed to a hand held routher strapped below would be an obvious move forward and hence my interest in the Woodstar bs52. I have not found any reviews of this machine and am interested in any member having experience of this machine, or any other purpose built table for that matter.


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## Digit (21 Jul 2008)

I think that is true of all routers Ike, but like Ron said, you won't keep the dust out. Though yours appears to blow the dust away I'll guarantee that if you dismantle it there will be fine dust everywhere, trust me!

Roy.


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## wizer (21 Jul 2008)

I honestly think you will be disappointed with that Woodstar machine. There is a reason the bigger brands don't make router table machines. Go for a Triton router which is designed for table use and you will be very happy. In all the years I have been joined to this forum, you are the first to post about dust related router failure. Unfortunately I think you have just been unlucky. Perhaps beef up your dust extraction?


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## ronhayles (21 Jul 2008)

can you be specific on why I would be disppointed with the woodstar and what is that reason you claim that the main router company's dont make table mounted router tables like the woodstar? Putting a router under a table will always put the machine at risk of dust entering the bearings however well you beef up the extraction methods. If you are a heavy user of routers then I accept that the conventional setup will be the preference but for many home woodworkers a neat bench mounted table with a built in motor will have a real appeal, or that is as I see it. I have been using a conventional router table for many years. I am looking for an alternative.


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## ike (21 Jul 2008)

Ron,

I honestly believe you don't need to worry about dust causing premature bearing failure at least in a good quality router. The sealed bearings are just that - sealed for life, in a quality machine that should mean an awful lot of use or for many years. I use a Hitachi M12V in the router table. I have no qualms about it giving up the ghost through dust ingress. It's far more likely for sander bearings to fail and usually cos of plaster dust, not wood dust.

Ike


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## wizer (21 Jul 2008)

Whilst Woodstar is part of Sheppach, it is there low-end tool division. I have seen it in the flesh and it looks 'plasticy', a bit cheap looking. I guess you get what you pay for. As for the reason that big brands don't make them, I'd assume that there isn't the demand? Again, I've not seen anyone else post about dust causing routers to fail in router tables. In fact you rarely hear of the good branded routers failing at all. Wouldn't the woodstar be prone to the same ingress of dust?

It sounds like you have made your mind up about the Woodstar, maybe you'll prove us wrong with a review?


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## paulm (21 Jul 2008)

I think Ike's couple of posts are spot on.

The much vaunted Triton "advantage" of being designed for use in a table and avoiding dust ingress is to my mind just marketing and trying to differentiate their product from others by "solving" a problem that doesn't exist.

There are not widespread reports of router failure due to dust ingress that I have noticed at any rate in the last few years, and as Ike says, while the motors are running they expel air and therefore dust, and any that settles does no harm in any event. Coupled with a reasonable dust extraction system and a half decent router in the first place I wouldn't expect any problems generally.

Having said all that the Triton machines are indeed very good anyway and a lot of people like them accordingly, but they are by no means the only choice for under table use. I have successfully used a Trend T11 and Xtreme Xtension for many years and have no need or desire to change as I don't believe there is anything significantly better out there nor is there anything I want to do with it that I can't.

Wonder what make or makes you have had problems with Ron and a bit more detail ?

Cheers, Paul


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## ronhayles (21 Jul 2008)

Ike..i am grateful for your interest and perseverance to your viewpoint. Long before it became fashionable, over 44 years ago, I purchased land and built my own house. First in the workshop was a coronet minorette, then followed years later by a bandsaw and router. When router tables were first muted I built my own to specs from a woodworking mag. I still have a froud router under that bench. My routing is now recreational. small boxes and wall clocks etc. I'm in my mid seventies. its a pain, in more ways than one bending down under my table to change router bits. my wish is for a bench top router table, preferably with a built in motor. Having seen the Woodstar I fancied that this would meet my needs, but being cautious and on the Isle of Wight away from major stockists I just hoped that someone had used this machine or one like this and could give me advice. I dont mean to be contencious, but I know that my model router has and is vulnerable to failure. I'm happy to use it sparingly just to avoid the expense of a possible replacement.


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## ronhayles (21 Jul 2008)

hi guys, I appreciate your input. I have an operational table with a router underneath which I use sparingly as the motor has a sound like the previous one that failed. I was told that this was due to dust causing the bearings to fail. If my usage were such that I could justify purchasing a new motor I would do so...this would obviously solve my issues. .but..I'm in my mid seventies and my routing is now recreational..small boxes and wall clocks and the like. Getting under the table to change bits is a pain in more ways than one. Just a thought...A table model with inbuilt motor does not have to be a direct drive. alternatively, I've toyed with the idea of the table being mounted upright in a vice so that the dust and waste does not fall on the motor. Maybe i'm just a step away from the looney. Its a little bit of dotage lateral thinking. I just hoped that someone has used the woodstar and could give me a hands on report.


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## wizer (21 Jul 2008)

We are here to help Ron, no one wants you to make the wrong decision. Hopefully a woodstar owner will speakup soon.

I have severe back problems, so I can sympathise with bending down. I know the prospect of building a new router table might not be ideal. But have a look at this:







The table lifts on a gas strut, taken from the boot of a car. It was built by one of our members P111dom. Just one idea to think about. Another way would be something smaller like this:






Hope any of that helps.


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## Grinding One (21 Jul 2008)

ronhayles":1fvjhglb said:


> hi guys, I appreciate your input. I have an operational table with a router underneath which I use sparingly as the motor has a sound like the previous one that failed. I was told that this was due to dust causing the bearings to fail. If my usage were such that I could justify purchasing a new motor I would do so...this would obviously solve my issues. .but..I'm in my mid seventies and my routing is now recreational..small boxes and wall clocks and the like. Getting under the table to change bits is a pain in more ways than one. Just a thought...A table model with inbuilt motor does not have to be a direct drive. alternatively, I've toyed with the idea of the table being mounted upright in a vice so that the dust and waste does not fall on the motor. Maybe i'm just a step away from the looney. Its a little bit of dotage lateral thinking. I just hoped that someone has used the woodstar and could give me a hands on report.



This has already been done,Shopsmith did it back in the 70`s .Router is mounted on a 90* fence to the table top,you adjust it by a crank handle on top....then another company copied it ,came out so the table itself rotated on hinges to any degree you wanted....Anyway Shopsmith called it the router raiser http://shopsmith.com/


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## wizer (21 Jul 2008)

Something else that just occurred to me Ron. The Triton router has the facility to change the bit above the table. Here's a review:

http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/review ... router.htm

The smaller Triton router had above the table height adjustment too.

http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/review ... outer2.htm


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## ronhayles (21 Jul 2008)

yup I would love a shopsmith...had they been around when I started building it would have been justified.. but for eight inch by six inch boxes!!! I wish also that I had age on my side and energy and finance to build a new bench with a new router. I'm into downsizing following heart problems. Its great having your input guys and you all make sense...but if only!!! Maybe I'll persuade the missus to take me to the D & M show in November and then show my enthusiasm for the Triton that she will soften enough to agree to remorgage the house. I can dream, for goodness sake!!!


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## Lee Brubaker (22 Jul 2008)

Router dust collector.....I made my own with a collection point directly in line to the chips & dust thrown by the bit. There is also a collection point at the fence. A shop vac does a good job of clearing at both.

Lee


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## big soft moose (22 Jul 2008)

WiZeR":3ccan1n5 said:


> But have a look at this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That looks the total buisness - did he post a step by step on building it ? and if so do we know where it is ? (reoutfitting workshop at the moment)


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## wizer (22 Jul 2008)

no I don't think he did. He's an active member, send him a PM


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## dickm (22 Jul 2008)

WiZeR":15ccza7d said:


> But have a look at this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or there is the Ryobi/Record/Woodcut(?) cast iron beast that works in the same way. Not sure if the Record has a gas strut - my Ryobi certainly doesn't. It's big and heavy, but pretty convenient and has a good screw-adjust for the fences.
Wonder how difficult it would be to fit a gas strut????


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## ronhayles (23 Jul 2008)

hey!! steady on guys all these clever adaptions have got my wants juices going and invading my sleep time....But..there is a reality..for everyone of you that has this ability there are thousands of us that still have the original set up. That is a single speed unit under a basic bench and have never risen above this. The router was designed as a hand held tool until someone decided it could be turned up the other way static. The manufacturers have tweaked this through some clever designs but it's a hybrid. Fine when the router was hauled out from under the table for hand work, but who does this now? A second router is the answer..and so its time for manufacturers to redesign the power unit for under table work. The Woodrat was first to challenge this. Its clever but for me, a little Rat user, it moves beyond the basic simplicity of the router table. The Woodstar interests me for this reason. Its a built in motor with variable speeds and a different method of rise and fall. Its said that it looks plasticy but what the heck..Does it do the job and do it well...that is what I need to find out and until I get a response or a wookworking mag does a test I will be left wondering


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## ian currie (22 Oct 2008)

So i bought a Woodstar BS52 from Machine Mart for £165. Great machine, table model with built in motor is excellent. Works great and although looks a bit cheap did the business...... that is until the motor gave up the ghost ! I'm returning it this week, i hope this is an isolated failure because i love the machine and the concept is spot on....i can't understand why would anyone want to patch togeher a machine made for hand use with a separate table?
seems to me akin to buyin a bike and then decidin you want an engine on it,,,, then cobblin a strimmer motor onto it ! 
why not get a moped in the first place. ? 
anyway maybe i'm the dumb boy cus it broke, however i still feel this concept is the best option and hope other manufacturers get the message.
will post again when i get a response from MACHINE MART.


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## BradNaylor (22 Oct 2008)

ronhayles":26z4g0f9 said:


> I had thought that a manufacter would produce a table model with an inbuilt motor.




I have thought this for years.

I find it a total mystery that one of the pwer tool companies hasn't brought out a small spindle moulder specifically designed for the use of router cutters.

I envisage a cast iron table with mitre fence, good quality rise and fall mechanism, fully adustable fence with dust extraction, the ability to change cutters from above the table, and a variable speed motor built in.

I'd buy one, you'd buy one, every pipper would buy one!

So why doesn't someone do it?

Until then we'll all have to make do with the ridiculous Heath Robinson solution of slinging a hand-held router upside down under a table...

Cheers
Dan

PS don't bother anyone pointing out the Jet SM which claims to take router cutters. It's a good idea in principle but doesn't work - it's RPM is too slow!


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## ronhayles (22 Oct 2008)

Hi Dan. Thought I was writing to myself ..Glad someone agrees. I am in correspondence with a woodworking mag over a review of another product that is similar to the Woodstar. What I envisage is a manufactured unit of four pillars held in a square steel cage. Onto these pillars would be cross members, connected via bushes, allowing a rise and fall motion similar to the present router. a dedicated motor would be bolted to these cross members eliminating any weight on the table top insert plate. This could be produced as a unit allowing it to be purchased and bolted under a table into the thickest part of the table top. It would require sufficient rise and fall to allow the router bits to be changed above the table. It would be a winner. Then how about changing the shank of the router bits from round to six sided, eliminating the curse of the collet. The bit could be held in place by a simple screw cap. regards Ron. Look forwaqrd to news of the Woodstar.


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## Digit (22 Oct 2008)

I think the reason it's never been done fellahs is 'cos it's one of those things that falls under the heading of 'why the hell didn't I think of that!'
Obvious! Once someone points it out! Lets hope a manufacturer reads your posts.

Roy.


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## ian currie (24 Oct 2008)

Hi guys, especially, Ronhayles, Digit and Dan.....
Contrary to popular belief Machine Mart, bless them, gave me an on the spot EXCHANGE for my broken Woodstar BS52. Well done Machine Mart lots of brownie points,,,, will shop there again soon!
I did have to stomp about a bit and insist that the assistant speak to a superior. Less experienced complainers may have been fobbed off by the "Woodstar insist on inspecting returns before exchange" put off line.

anyway, in my opinion the machine is a dream ! looks a bit amateur but mated to a nice set of half inch Trend cutters will do a very nice job. 
in all fairness i think we probably expected a little too much from our first one, putting a full bullnose on around 40metres of 18mm thick solid oak skirting with hardly a break. 

After instructing my son to give the new machine a breather every 15metres or so, it flew through around 600metres today. 

I think the bearings probably gave out on the first one. Will be a doddle on smaller runs and certainly on softwoods. 

You do have to assemble a few bits which are a bit fiddly and the plastic bits look a bit naff, however they do seem to be very good quality and strong but flexible. With the two table extensions fitted it makes a very user friendly unit. We screwed ours to the top of an old B&D workmate which is a big improvement especially in the more stable half height position of the workmate. 

hope this puts the concerns to bed. i can strongly recommend the BS52
cheers 
ian


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## Lee Brubaker (24 Oct 2008)

Bearing failures re routers mounted in a table is usually due to fairly heavy slogging using bearing bits for machining decorative edges. People take a full bite insead of setting the fence to allow several shallow cuts. Then of course, what is the quality of the router in question ? Lower priced routers often have cheap bearings.
The front of my router table is open so I made an acrylic extractor to eliminate sweeping after table use & have extraction at the fence as well.

Lee




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## Argee (24 Oct 2008)

chisel":3qqk3qt5 said:


> The much vaunted Triton "advantage" of being designed for use in a table and avoiding dust ingress is to my mind just marketing and trying to differentiate their product from others by "solving" a problem that doesn't exist.










Please excuse the pictures being to differing scales, but they clearly show the difference between a quite popular brand (RE601E) on the left, with aeration slots in the horizontal surface of the base and the plain horizontal base surfaces of the Triton routers, which have their slots in the vertical surface of the motor body.

When used inverted in a table, it would be foolish to suggest that dust and debris will enter the motor *whilst it's in use*, as the action of the cooling fan blades propel air outward (upward, when inverted) in each model I've seen. There may be an odd machine that has the cooling impeller reversed, but I don't know of one, as it would tend to suck dust and debris into the motor.

However, when *stationary *- during bit changing, fence adjusting, clearing up, etc. - then the one on the left is far more vulnerable to ingesting dust and debris, that's just commonsense, not marketing.

Ray.


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## Digit (24 Oct 2008)

I have an Hitachi router permanently mounted in a table, as Ray shows the vents are in the underside and ideally suited for catching the dust!
I have fitted an acrylic shield to the router that covers the slots but allows the air free movement.
I also have a cheapo router fitted in an overhead set up and the lower bearing on that finally gave up the ghost last week, due to dust.
Replacement was cheap and easy so no prob, but an airline does help to keep them clear of the worst of the dust of course.

Roy.


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## mailee (24 Oct 2008)

Like Ike I too have an Hitachi M12V in my table with dust extraction but it still gets dust inside. Periodically I blow it through with an airline rather than trying to vacuum it out, it is more effective if messy. I have had no problems with my machine other than dust clogging the on off switch preventing it from turning off. I use the remote switching anyway so this isn't a problem. I am on my second Hitachi in the table now but not through dust ingress rather the electronic speed module gave up on the first one. My router has been in the table now for around two years. :wink:


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## Sawdust (24 Oct 2008)

Ron,

I built this: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... sc&start=0

as long as it's attached to my extractor, I don't get any dust clogging the bearings and so far no bearing trouble. It's also dead easy to change the cutters from above the table.

I think if you put a Triton or any other decent router in a table and hook up an extractor you will be OK.

And welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Mike


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## p111dom (24 Oct 2008)

ronhayles":3dbm3rw4 said:


> What I envisage is a manufactured unit of four pillars held in a square steel cage. Onto these pillars would be cross members, connected via bushes, allowing a rise and fall motion similar to the present router. a dedicated motor would be bolted to these cross members eliminating any weight on the table top insert plate. This could be produced as a unit allowing it to be purchased and bolted under a table into the thickest part of the table top. It would require sufficient rise and fall to allow the router bits to be changed above the table. It would be a winner.



Do you mean like this? 













Sorry for not posting this sooner I've been on holiday. Most of the responses you have had already echo my feelings too. The woodster is a budget tool that I think you might regret buying in the long term. Most people on the forum are avid followers of Triton, I have a T11 which I prefer but both are good. In the US there are many fixed based routers to choose from, which with the base removed gives you just that, a motor only with a collet for the bits. These are starting to filter over to here but to be honest they are just as expensive as the plunge routers so you have to weigh up whether you would be would be prepred to loose the plunge function in favour of above the table bit changing. Basically I think it comes down to economics. Tools are a lot cheaper over in the US so it's not such a big deal for people to buy one of each. Over here people tend to want max value for money which is what a plunge router gives you. Up until now there hasn't really been a market for them but that is changing. Personally I leave the T11 in the table for 90% of the time but I do use it free hand every now and then and it's a great tool both in and out of the table. Failing that it's not true that your router bits would be redundant if you bought a spindle moulder as you can get an attachment so they would fit. The problem is that they run much slower than a router which is fine for bigger bits but not for the smaller ones. What about an older Kity combi machine like the K5. A small table saw, plainer/thicknesser and a small spindle moulder all belt driven off one induction motor? Failing that you could take the route above but hat's about £200 for the lift, £200 for the router motor plus shipping and you'd need a 110v box etc etc.


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## MooreToolsPlease (25 Oct 2008)

I've used dewalt and trend routers quite heavily in my workshop, mainly for small mouldings and cabinet doors and have never had any of the problems mentioned. Just make sure its blown through every hour or so and things will be fine. 
For the cost of the setup dom mentioned you are looking at second hand spindle moulders anyway, these are far superior to any router table.


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## Derek Willis. (25 Oct 2008)

I have a router table that I made about 16 years ago, although my router, along with everyone else's blows the dust away from the buisness end, when you are trenching and you cover the aperture, it is very difficult to stop the dust going in, I alleviated this by putting a box tunnel under the top, ending near the router, and I connect my vacuum extractor to this when the router is covered, thus extracting all dust from the works.
Derek.


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## ronhayles (29 Oct 2008)

Hi folks..just catching up...Pleased to hear of the quick exchange of the woodstar..Good reccomendation. I'm interested in that stripped down router unit. Can I find this on the Net as to manufacturer..availability. I guess that we all experience failures in our equipment and we have to accept the manufacturers reason for the failure. I was told that my router failed due to dust ingress. The natural response is to avoid this happening again and as much as I accept your testamonies that it hasn't happened to you, it is when it does happen that you seek a resolution that will guarantee non failure. I will still chase after my idea of a totally new approach and a dedicated motor that is built to fit under a table and remain there with a rise and fall mech that is independant of the motor.


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## neilyweely (30 Oct 2008)

p111dom

PLease tell me what that was you showed us, I mean I know what it is, but what's it called and how much is it?

It looks good, doesn't it?

Neil


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## Jake (30 Oct 2008)

The red anodising is a clue (if you know the company already) that it is by Jessem http://www.jessem.com/mast_r_lift.htm


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## p111dom (30 Oct 2008)

Available from Rutlands and yes it's by Jessems. It's £200 plus the motor which is alot. I wasn't suggesting you buy one. I was just pointing out that what you described is available and at £400+ is probably why there isn't a mass market for it.


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## ronhayles (30 Oct 2008)

Thanks for the response and details. No! at that price I will not be buying one, but it interests me just the same. Reading through this site there is an inescapable fact that putting a hand held router inverted under a table does create issues. Using an air line is not an option for the many hundreds like me who do not have this facility and cobbling together some method to prevent dust reaching the motor can also be beyond us. It calls for a rethink. If Woodstar can produce a table, albeit, a low end product for under two hundred pounds, then producing a stand alone dedicated motor at a reasonable cost is possible. All the time we accept the limitations of the present set up then the manufacturers will remain complacent. Because of my location, getting to woodworking shows is not easy but when the opportunity does arise then I bang on about this problem to the manufacterers. We all need to do this to get them to rethink. I would like to get close to a spindle moulder to see that set up. Could an uprated motor in this set up be an answer?


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## ike (30 Oct 2008)

> ....there is an inescapable fact that putting a hand held router inverted under a table does create issues.



...for some maybe.

I think _quality_ routers are well designed enough to cope perfectly well with any amount of dust. If anything it's the on-off switch that suffers - but that's a fairly moot point when the router is switched via a seperate NVR switch, which is normal in router tables.

regards,

ike


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## p111dom (30 Oct 2008)

I really think you are making a big deal about a problem that isn't there. I've ran my router in table for 3 years now and its had lots of use. Yes every now and then I do run the airline over it but you can buy compressed air in an aerosol can if you don't want to buy a compressor or have space issues. It's just part of my regular maintanance routine. With a moulder or the Jessems you'd still have to do the same. Moulders tend to be belt driven but you still want to remove the dust from the worm gear etc every now and then. I would have thought that the Woodstar would be the same. Spindle moulders are something different entirely. The principle is the same but they are much more powerful, are bigger, more expensive and run slower. It depends on your application. If you are making sash windows 10 at a time then the spindle moulder is probably the one for you. If not the stick with a router in a table. Feel free to the buy the woodstar but if the quality and capacities mean you've out grown it after a month it wouldn't surprise me.


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## Derek Willis. (30 Oct 2008)

I would like to add that, I had a Freud 2000 C.V.E. router in my table for over 16 years with no problem whatsoever, yes a small amount of dust drops down but the fan rejects it, earlier this year, I bought another router of the same model because I broke a cutter and destroyed the fan blades, otherwise i have no doubt the original one would still be going. My table router, by the way, is in use every day, more or less.
Derek.


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## ronhayles (31 Oct 2008)

Dom.. feel free to think I am making something of nothing. I think differently. It is obvious that you, and those who think like you have never had a problem and are constantly using their routers on a day to day basis. I have many friends who use their machines as a recreation and cannot afford those 'quality machines', and like me are searching for something that is within our budget. The cost of modern routers are costly because they have on them so much that is not needed when put under a table. Why should we be expected to pay for something we will never use? I sniff an 'I'm all right' attitude here. I have made my case and stick by it that there is a huge potential market out there for a dedicated motor, minus all the gubbins of the present routers. I had thought that I could enlist the support of the big boys in helping those of us who are looking for something less expensive. If I am getting up your noses, just say so and I will fade away and search for others to support my campaign.


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## Argee (31 Oct 2008)

ronhayles":3nugnzr1 said:


> Dom.. feel free to think I am making something of nothing. I think differently. It is obvious that you, and those who think like you have never had a problem and are constantly using their routers on a day to day basis. I have many friends who use their machines as a recreation and cannot afford those 'quality machines', and like me are searching for something that is within our budget.


If so many of us are using our routers without a problem, on a daily basis, doesn't that suggest that there's *no problem* with what you refer to as _"quality machines?"_ There's a solution in there somewhere.



ronhayles":3nugnzr1 said:


> The cost of modern routers are costly because they have on them so much that is not needed when put under a table.


No, that's not the case at all. Routers in this country are primarily plunge routers - IOW, made for hand-held use, hence the current designs. Inverted use is the by-product, not the other way around. In the US, fixed-base routers are the norm and - as such - are much more "stripped down" in their design.



ronhayles":3nugnzr1 said:


> Why should we be expected to pay for something we will never use? I sniff an 'I'm all right' attitude here. I have made my case and stick by it that there is a huge potential market out there for a dedicated motor, minus all the gubbins of the present routers. I had thought that I could enlist the support of the big boys in helping those of us who are looking for something less expensive. If I am getting up your noses, just say so and I will fade away and search for others to support my campaign.


You haven't made any sort of case, just repeated your opinion, failing to take account of other views - which were just as sincerely offered - then allege that *we've* got an attitude. If, as you state, there was a _"huge potential market,"_ we would already be seeing fixed-base routers in their droves. However, it's difficult to find one (although I did manage to, using Google).

The "big boys" don't feel the need to increase or diversify their current range for a very good reason - there's no need, because there's no *demand*. There are many, less expensive, routers on the market, but you can't expect them to be as trouble-free as the quality machines that cause no problems. Ebay may be your logical next step.

Ray.


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## neilyweely (1 Nov 2008)

Ron - 
If I am repeating what someone else has already stated, then please ignore me.
There is only one, to my knowledge, fixed base router, for sale in the UK, at normal outlets. That is a Bosch, and it is both a fixed and plunge base package. And to tell you the truth I quite like the look of it. However, I have to say I think Argee may be right here, as you would think that if there was a demand for fixed base routers here, the manufacturers would be well aware, and would jump on it.
As far as the woodstar is concerned is it is the same basic chassis as the performance power pro thing I had. The differences are the increase in power, and the fact that it has a handle for rise and fall where the one I had doesn't. I say had because I got shot of it. It was not a good design, and the other RT's I have used have been better. That is to say that the RT's with plunge routers fitted have very noticeably outperformed the table with the dedicated motor fitted.


P111dom - OK, I have seen that before. I thought that the pic you showed was a different model. Maybe a long time since I seen the shot.

I have been considering a MDF box, with a threaded rod and two guiding bars set up vertically to guide the raise/lower function of the box.
Obviously the router would have to be securely fitted to the box, and the box to the router table set up. I do seem to remember seeing a homemade system before, can anyone help me out here?

Anyway, as stated earlier, my Elu mof177 was in a table, at college, being BATTERED daily, for 20 years before I rescued it.

Good evenin all

Neil


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## Digit (1 Nov 2008)

Draper do a nice kit where the router body is supplied with two bases, one is plunge base and the other a fixed type.

Roy.


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## sooty (1 Nov 2008)

Fox do a small router built into a table its on sale at rutlands for about £110.00
http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/F60100A

There is a small review of it Fox F60 router table in Oct/Nov issue of British Woodworking


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## ronhayles (1 Nov 2008)

I remember the Super markets claiming that they never stocked english apples because there was no call for them, people preferred the imported apples. Sainsbury's now have their own english apple orchards!!! If the product is not available, how do the manufacturers know there is no market? The result is that people buy cheap routers manufactured abroad. The inventor of the woodrat could have easily thought that there was no market..and the same goes for every new invention. I have simply looked at a situation, evalued it and recognised that the present router is designed for hand held use and has limitations when inverted. I am told that a dedicated motor in a rise and fall cage could be produced for under a hundred pounds. I have done my homework. If available, I can imagine that all those that buy cheap routers would be potential customers. What I had hoped was that in raising the issue I would get support from those who can and do use the more powerful routers. I have obviously not succeeded. The byword reaching me is that, because you have not had problems..there is no problem. For us on a budget..Yes!! there is a problem and a new approach could solve this. Ron.


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## p111dom (1 Nov 2008)

ronhayles":14nzxt1q said:


> I sniff an 'I'm all right' attitude here. I have made my case and stick by it that there is a huge potential market out there for a dedicated motor, minus all the gubbins of the present routers.



Not at all we're just trying to help. I used to buy used routers from boot sales 15 years ago because I thought I couldn't afford to buy new. At £30 a pop they seemed like a good deal. All Black and Decker small plunge routers and none of them lasted more than a month. To make matters worse at 17 I really didn't learn my lesson and kept going back. I must have done this 5 or 6 times spending £150-£180 before I finally decided to buy a new one. I bought a performance pro one from B&Q. Two months later the bushes had worn out. Not a problem as they gave me a replacement straight away. Then next month the speed controller stopped working. Again I got a replacement. This one lasted about 6 months where again the speed controller failed. That replacement started sparking with a failed motor after about 6 months. That router was £89. Again this seemed good at the time but had I combined the £180 spent on second hand rubbish and added the 90 odd poundes I'd spent at B&Q to it I could have bought a router for £270. I bought my Trend T11 for £234 new so in the end I had a load of hassle for no gain at all. People talk about two issues. The "feel of a quality tool" which is hard to know exactly what they mean until you go from cheap DIY rubish to a Dewalt or Makita etc. Secondly people bang on about cheap tools being a false economy and having been in your situation with regards to budget I remember thinking the same as you at the time. I know they were right in retrospect. 

As for your "case" to be honest I'm not seeing it. You've been given an *opinion* that your router failed due to dust ingress. This opinion could be wrong, could be right but I would have though cheap quality bearings or another failed internal component would be a more likely cause. Yet on the basis of one probably unqualified opinon you are prepared to rubbish everyone elses imput and rubbish other manufacturers products as if dust ingress is a industry wide problem that no one is doing anything about. Ever a motor on it's own would need some sort of fan a cooling vent so you would still have the problem(which I don't believe exists). Makita have just started selling a fixed based router in the UK as well as the Bosch. I don't know the price off the top of my head but it's a old design sold abroad and I don't believe it has variable speed control but that may suit your purpose better. 

As for your great idea. It's not new and it's being done. There is a market for it but I wouldn't say it's huge. Again it comes down to economics. There's a far greated demand for plunge routers than fixed based or motor only. You may be surprised about the cost. I think the fact that they wouln't sell as many motors on their own would mean that they couldn't manufacturer them on the same scale or in the same bulk .This may mean they would be actually more expensive to sell than the plunge routers with all the bells and whistles you refuse to pay for. You can buy just the motors form quality manufacturenr like Porter Cable in the US. Check the web and find out the price .You just need a 110v box and be prepared to pay about $100 for the shipping. Then there's your metal cage for raising and lowering (again which is already being done). 

I really have been throught all this my self. I don't think I have posted on this forum before that before my present set up when I was still running the B&Q router my self and my Dad made our own router raiser. This was based on Axminsters routerlift but having not seen it in the flesh and with no picture of the inner gubbins the build was all guess work. I know now that the router lift actually lifts a solid plate which you bolt the router to. We used the fence bars to attach it to ours. It worked well but not as well as the real deal. It was also expensive to make. I'll dig it out of the garage and take a picture, I stil use the metal inserts Dad made on my current table. I ditched it when I bought the T11 and after something like the 5th replacement B&Q router failed. It was still in warranty but it was costing a fortune in petrol going to pick up a replacement every other month.


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## p111dom (1 Nov 2008)

Can't have done that much research or you would have seen this one again at Rutlands for.............wait for it.............








£109.95

Problem solved!


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## Grinding One (1 Nov 2008)

I think what you need is a what we call a pin router Ron,It looks like a Radial arm saw only for Routers.Router mounts upright on arm above the table,a handle under the table raises or lowers the Arm with router attached.You can also mount a router under the table,helps in routing both sides at once if you wanted to.I have one of these too,havn`t use it in awhile.The main reason to have a table mounted Router in the USA is the horse power ,to dang hard to hang onto.But my 1 Hp I can hang onto quite well freehand.The 3 1/2 is definitely a table Router.
My Pin Router is also a Shopsmith by the way.


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## ronhayles (1 Nov 2008)

Dom..another false assumption. the router you pictured was reviewed in a recent woodworking mag. It's weakness is that it has a thin metal table top, unlike the Woodstar...research done, my friend.!! That there is another table top machine available does support my belief that there is a market out there. I have a router set in my homemade table. It sounds like it is ready to fail at any moment. I cannot embark on a project lest it should fail in the middle and financial restraints (the missus) forbids me replacing this machine. I do understand your motive to help but unless you see the problem from my prospective then all you are doing is offering advice from your prospective. It's not a problem for you so you don't see a problem..full stop. That's OK by me but don't accuse me of simply offering 'opinion'. The previous failure was diagnosed by the manufacturer with no replacement offered. Hardly a one man opinion. I started this thread asking if anyone had bought and used the Woodstar. I have had one response, mostly very favourable. If I were younger than my seventy five years, I would employ my toolmaker friend to produce a unit to my specs, but he is my age now and that is not an option. A quality motor in a metal cage with rise and fall for under an hundred pounds would do me nicely, thanks.!! I am not aware of a pin router but guess that financial restraints would eliminate this, but I am interested and will go on the manufacturers site and see. Ron.


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## Argee (1 Nov 2008)

ronhayles":2e6p2ter said:


> That there is another table top machine available does support my belief that there is a market out there.


*No, it doesn't. *All it shows is that there are two different poor-quality machines to buy. Your "belief" is actually an *opinion *to anyone else who doesn't share your belief.



ronhayles":2e6p2ter said:


> I have a router set in my homemade table. It sounds like it is ready to fail at any moment. I cannot embark on a project lest it should fail in the middle and financial restraints (the missus) forbids me replacing this machine.


In your *opinion *it sounds like it might fail. What is anyone supposed to say about that, apart from _"replace it, then."_?



ronhayles":2e6p2ter said:


> I do understand your motive to help but unless you see the problem from my prospective then all you are doing is offering advice from your prospective. It's not a problem for you so you don't see a problem..full stop. That's OK by me but don't accuse me of simply offering 'opinion'.


You've offered nothing else but opinion, as far as I can see (as above) The advice you've been offered has been from *experience*, not perspective (correctly spelt) - we cannot possibly advise you from *your *perspective - it's not possible, no-one can. To suggest that we can't see a problem unless it happens to us, is not only ludicrous, it's insulting. The answer is so obvious - *buy a suitable tool*. You've been advised on what *is* suitable and why, but that doesn't suit you because it doesn't agree with your *opinion* and/or your budget, neither of which we can do anything about.



ronhayles":2e6p2ter said:


> The previous failure was diagnosed by the manufacturer with no replacement offered. Hardly a one man opinion.


How many men (at the manufacturer's returns department) do you think slaved over the diagnosis? I was recently at just such a Returns Department of a low-budget tool distributor, staffed by one inexperienced and unqualified person (who happened to be female, but that's not an issue, just a fact) who had a "script" of choices to reply with. Do you really imagine that low-budget tool companies worry (or even *care*) about the occasional failure?



ronhayles":2e6p2ter said:


> I started this thread asking if anyone had bought and used the Woodstar. I have had one response, mostly very favourable. If I were younger than my seventy five years, I would employ my toolmaker friend to produce a unit to my specs, but he is my age now and that is not an option.


So, you could afford to employ a toolmaker to produce a unit for you, but you won't replace an obviously unsuitable tool? - *madness*.



ronhayles":2e6p2ter said:


> A quality motor in a metal cage with rise and fall for under an hundred pounds would do me nicely, thanks.


I expect it would - but it's neither realistic, or ever likely to happen. Until you realise and accept this, you won't progress at all. No response required, I'm wasting my time contributing further to this thread.

Ray.


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## ronhayles (1 Nov 2008)

Please read what I have written, not what you think I have written. The failed router was a Froud 2000 unit costing over two hundred and fifty pounds way back. Please see my previous submissions. My current one is also a Froud unit. Low budget!!! How about an apology. I did not say I would employ my friend the tool maker. he has looked after me very well as I have looked after him for over forty years. I thought this forum was for sharing problems, offering support and help, not pouring scorn. It is my opinion, as valid as your opinions, that two seperate manufaccturers have put on the market a router table with a dedicated motor indicaters that there is a market for such a product.. Watch for more. please do not respond. I need support not heated opinion.


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## Digit (1 Nov 2008)

A dedicated motor seems the logical next step, after all, fitting a hand tool to a bench device is a compromise.
It's a bit like the fact that a few years ago, not so many either, that the living room had a separate TV, satellite receiver, video system, computer etc, and now much of that is one self contained unit.

Roy.


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## ronhayles (1 Nov 2008)

Thanks, Digit...The problem, as I see it, is that innovations in the woodworking sector outside America are manufacturer driven..ie. why produce something better when customers keep buying the present products? I'm comfortable with those who are satisfied with what they have, and lets be honest, it does the job well. Time comes when someone wakes up to a better system and the committed discover that there is a better way and wonder why it has not been done sooner. I am convinced that the American sector will eventually go in the direction of the dedicated motor. There are American celebrity woodworkers who tend to drive American manufacturers, not the other way around. The cost of quality routers can be sustained by those who, through business, can cover their cost. For us who tinker, a router is now an essential tool but two to three hundred pounds for a quality router is beyond us. I think the Woodstar and such machines will improve in quality and meet our needs at a more reasonable cost. We shall see. Ron


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## ronhayles (1 Nov 2008)

argee. If you have something to say, say it on this site, don't hide away in private messages. You are simply trying to put your solution into my problems. The sense in which I would employ my toolmaker friend would not entail cost. I scratch his back and so on. For your information, the cost of materials involved, two feet of half inch round silver steel and three feet of stainless steel for the cage would be less than five pounds, plus the four bearings and it would be assembled at his work place..no big deal...got that one wrong. I just wish he was well enough to confound you by producing this. Me thinks you have tunnel vision and cannot see beyond your own expectations. I trust you will stick to your word and not involve yourself in this topic further.


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## Argee (2 Nov 2008)

ronhayles":j36vovou said:


> argee. If you have something to say, say it on this site, don't hide away in private messages ... I trust you will stick to your word and not involve yourself in this topic further.


I try to keep civil, but as you were ranting, I decided to take it off-air. However, since you insist:



ronhayles":j36vovou said:


> Please read what I have written, not what you think I have written. The failed router was a Froud 2000 unit costing over two hundred and fifty pounds way back. Please see my previous submissions. My current one is also a Froud unit. Low budget!!! How about an apology.


"I *have *read *every *word, including many that were repeated _ad nauseam_. You should take your own advice - my reference to "low budget" was directed to the Returns Department I visited, not to your routers, which I thought would be obvious to anyone (else) reading the response.



ronhayles":j36vovou said:


> I did not say I would employ my friend the tool maker.


*Really?* - here is what you said, word for word: _"If I were younger than my seventy five years, I would employ my toolmaker friend to produce a unit to my specs, but he is my age now and that is not an option."_



ronhayles":j36vovou said:


> I thought this forum was for sharing problems, offering support and help, not pouring scorn ...... I need support not heated opinion.


You've been offered solutions, support, opinions, suggestions and help. Good luck with continuing to receive it. I couldn't *be *less heated, incidentally - and you seem not to be able to differentiate between scorn and simple irritation."

So, you tell me to keep everything public, then not to respond. This, like everything else, smacks of confusion. Your PM showed, without doubt, how little you know about me, my experience and my contribution here over several years. *Now *I'm out of this thread, your goading notwithstanding.

----------ooooo0oooo-----------

To the membership in general, I apologise for taking up so much space in my replies. As you're aware, I tend to be verbose, but rarely inaccurate or personal. There have been two exceptions recently, LB and this thread, but I don't feel the need to explain further, or continue.

Ray.


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## ronhayles (2 Nov 2008)

argee. You are obviously a caring concened woodworker who likes to help,but...you are a traditionalist...I am a progressive..therein is the conflict. your thought pattern is "pipper, it's broke, lets replace it" my response is. "pipper, its broke..WHY!! is it something I have done, could I have avoided it, is it because its a hand held router placed under a bench? lets return it to the manufacturer and discover the problem. Manufacturers response. Failure due to dust ingression..reccomendation Buy our latest machine which has addressed this problem. Ten years later I am getting a similar sound from my machine that indicates another posssible failure. Thinks..Could there be a better solution. I know, join a forum and discover whether there is an alternative..Asks for reviews of the Woodstar. Has no more sense than to mention failure of present router due to dust ingresssion. This has provoked a response that takes over my request for info about alternatives. As much as you might disagree, I am convinced that an alternative to an expensive router slung under a table will emerge. I have suggested how I would design this alternative. this has brought scorn from some...Time will tell who has their eye on the ball. last comment. I never told you not to respond on this forum. You said that you would not do so and I replied that I trust you will stick to that decision... but lets stay friendly and agree to disagree.. regards Ron.


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## p111dom (2 Nov 2008)

ronhayles":2uo0lxwj said:


> As much as you might disagree, I am convinced that an alternative to an expensive router slung under a table will emerge.



But that's exactly what the fox and woodstar machines are. Cheap router motors in budget tables. This concept has emerged. Is in the public domain and at £100 ish I don't think you could get much cheaper. The concensus has been that a machine at this price is too compromised on quality for the average users of this forum. If it's sufficient for you then fine but you have our collective opinion that you may be disappointed. You don't have to follow this advice and by all means buy it, but it seems to me that you've tried to convert everyone's less than favourable remarks about this machine into a recommendation which never happened and now you feel aggrieved by it. No ones trying to pour scorn on your suggestion but you asked for a opinion which we have given. If there was a chance you weren't going to like the answer, perhaps you shouldn't have asked.


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## ronhayles (2 Nov 2008)

dom..I don't wish to get into issues with you. I came on this forum to ask if anyone had bought and used the woodstar. I have had one favourable response from someone who has purchased this machine, used it, and thinks it is OK.. Others have presumably SEEN this machine and have put it down. I now have to ask myself why I am getting private responses supporting my stance. Are they not wishing to risk the wrath of those who are disagreeing with me? Let's put the issue of router failure due to dust to bed. It is a red herring. My machine is likely to fail. I have a budget of about one hundred and fifty pounds to replace, this to include a means of removing the dust fallout. You can now see why I am looking for a machine such as the Woodstar. I can well understand why you think this is a bad move. Take the cost issue out and I did not need advice. I would have already bought a new machine. I have nearly sixty years of woodworking knowledge. I probably know as much, if not more than those who are challenging my responses. I have had a router under my table for sixteen, or more years. I have built my own house, for goodness sake, installed all electrics, fully pumped central heating and hot water followed by a pumped power shower. I know my onions. What I do not have here on the Island is businesses that carry a huge range of machinery. It is very costly to come to the mainland..hence my efforts to gain from other people's experience through this forum. Your claim that there is a consencus of opinion against me is false. as always, those who feel strongly, shout the loudest and you shout with them. If you have advice that will address my problem, then I have a ready ear but I will stand against those who claim to know it all and put my opinions down. Right..Let's start all over again...Can you help me with my problem??


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## Digit (2 Nov 2008)

My entirely home made set up has a large hole in the router plate so dust dropping through is a problem, especially when grooving.
I have fitted, as I have explained before, an Acylic shield to the router, an Hitachi12V, that prevents dust entering the router.
This was added as an addition 'cos under the conditions of usage dust ingress was a problem.
One problem with router use in tables that is raised here regularly is the loss of plunge when fitted into a table. This is a consequence of the majority of routers being designed predominantly for hand use.
Modern car engines are the result of development of a century old concept and the use of the fuel that permitted the change of fuel from town gas with the least modification.
Were the engine to be designed today from scratch, and with a choice of fuels, the end product would be somewhat different.
The same point exists with hand held routers mounted in tables.
When I purchased my first router, tables were not generally available, you made your own.
If a router/table combination were now to be designed as a piece I doubt very much that the router would be suitable for hand use and some of the short comings could be addressed.

Roy.


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## ivan (2 Nov 2008)

*Apples!*I know from the old day job that much UK apple industry _would_ not compete with French and others on quality so sales gradually declined leading to orchards being grubbed out all over Kent. Industry was too many small and "independent minded" growers to adapt. Restructured industry is re appearing.
*Routers* My router table has a Ryobi 601 fitted, which at the time 10 odd years ago was very much a "low cost" option. For eg it has a much smaller main bearing that a DW625 and clones. because it is fitted with Ryobi's plastic vac extraction fitting it is *extremely* difficult for any dust to fall in the ventilation slots *even when the router is off*. I only exercise extra care (secondary plastic disk on shaft) when routing aluminium. No breakdowns yet. With a cranked spanner, you easily change bits above the table.
New big Festool has useful additional feature for table use - both columns locked together. Cuts vibration others can show when plunge bushes wear a bit. Doubtless other will follow.
A well made router+table of Jessem quality is getting into small spindle pricing, (and Festool even more) so it's hard to see an end to adapting a standard plunge router, very economical to produce as sold in such enormous numbers.


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## Digit (2 Nov 2008)

> Cuts vibration others can show when plunge bushes wear a bit.



Agreed.
So let's think 'outside the box!'
This is my idea of what a dedicated table router would not have/have...
No Aluminium base...
No plastic cover to the base...
No springs...
No on/off switch...
No speed control...
No handles...
No depth adjuster...
No circle cutting device...
No fence.
This should make it a bit cheaper.
It would have...
The ability to use commercially available router cutters...
A combined NVR/speed control at the front of the table...
Above and below table dust extraction...
Above table height adjustment...
Above table cutter change...
Preferably three pillars.
Also for those who, like me don't like a table balanced on a bench top...
The above criteria on a table insert, (no table) for those who wish to insert the whole assembly into their own bench/work top etc.

Roy.


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## Doug B (2 Nov 2008)

Roy,
If you don`t have speed control, how can you safely use larger commercially available router cutters?
I`ve been reading this thread as it has progressed, & although i don`t disagree with both sides of the argument, i don`t see how a machine can be produced that will be of acceptable quality for the £100 - £200 mark.
When any retailer will want to make 50 percent of the sale price, by the time you put shipping, materials & manufacturing costs in to the equation it ceases to be viable.
All you end up with is the two cheap, poor quality makes that have been mentioned. 
I like the idea of a fixed motor machine, but think to get acceptable accuracy from such a machine would come at to high a cost, such as the Rutlands model.
So for the time being i will perceiver with the T11 in a router table.


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## Digit (2 Nov 2008)

Hi James, you missed the bit where I said to incorporate it with the NVR switch.
Price wise yes, initially. When sales rise the price drops, just look at routers, DVD players, white goods etc.
Some years ago I built and entire hardwood kitchen using a circular say fixed to the underside of a piece of ply with a batten clamped in place as a fence.
Did the job but I've moved on to a 'proper' TS.
Clamping a router that is designed for hand use to the under side of a table is the same as my Heath Robinson table saw.
Things move on.

Roy.


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## Doug B (2 Nov 2008)

Sorry Roy , i did miss that.
I think what you say is right to a point, but i still feel to get a suitably sized motor to drive a large cutter in a stable way with your requirements would not come down to Rons budget, no matter how large the demand.
It would be interesting to know what the maximum diameter cutter is that could be used in the versions already mentioned, as vibration is the last thing you want.


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## Digit (2 Nov 2008)

I don't know the unit costs of each part that goes into a router, but not producing or fitting the parts that I listed would logically reduce the basic part, plus the cost of the table of course. For those who wanted the table that is. Personally I find tables a pain in the lower back, in both senses of the word!

Roy.


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## Finwoodman (2 Nov 2008)

Have spent many hours just scouring your invaluable forum but couldn't resist contributing to this thread (Newbie post). I was at a woodworking forum here in Finland a few weeks ago and spotted the RUWI Gmbh routing and milling machine that is probably OTT for Ron's requirements but will surely put a smile on many of your faces. Given that this is my first post I can't outline the URL (which contains RUWI-online.de) but please check it out


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## ronhayles (2 Nov 2008)

I agree with both sides of this discussion and it does seem that I am hoping for the impossible for the moment..but that is what I entered this forum to discover. I have not had a look at the Woodstar and would be very interested in seeing any manufacturers litature. I am guessing that the motor in this unit is borrowed from another piece of kit. I am also guessing that the manufacturer is dipping his toe into the water, so to speak and if it is viable might just produce a dedicated motor capable of matching those now in hand held routers. I had an interesting discussion during my research, with a guy working in the industry here supplying and servicing electric motors. He tells me that there are literally thousands of different motors produced for industry. He said that there are motors capable of withstanding steam conditions. He thought these could meet my spec to exclude dust. So! maybe there is no need to produce a new motor and that somewhere out there is the perfect motor just waiting to be used for routing. It could be shaped differently from the present set up and smaller in heighth.. Maybe..I just keep thinking and talking to people hoping something will come from it all. If you work hard at dreams, sometimes they come true. Ron


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## Digit (2 Nov 2008)

Sealed motors are certainly available Ron. Cost again here I'm afraid.

Roy.


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## Jake (2 Nov 2008)

DeWalt (and probably Elu before them) used to sell a motor-only router.

They don't any more, from a quick look at their website.


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## ronhayles (2 Nov 2008)

Ivan..apples. my main hobby over the past twenty five years is indentifying and propogating old apple varieties. I have spent many an hour with staff at Brogdale, roaming the orchard and testing different varieties, likewise with Harry Baker at Wisley, the Guru of english apples. The demise in English apple production is generally held at the supermarket's door in demanding even sized apples. The French varieties are available some weeks earlier than english apples and that has contributed. Yet, England has the perfect climate to grow apples. They are later in maturing but this gives them the flavour that no other countries apples can match. I am enjoying ten different varieties from my garden at this time. Some light relief from our other subject.


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## Paul Chapman (2 Nov 2008)

Jake":19kanm96 said:


> DeWalt (and probably Elu before them) used to sell a motor-only router.
> 
> They don't any more, from a quick look at their website.



It's still available http://www.dewalt.co.uk/attachments/pro ... tno/DW627/

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jake (2 Nov 2008)

Well found, Paul!

I don't think it will will meet the budgetary requirements...


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## Chris Knight (3 Nov 2008)

The spec on that motor shows just how inefficient our machines are - 2000 watts input and only 1200 out!


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## p111dom (3 Nov 2008)

Digit":1dk5bdaq said:


> not producing or fitting the parts that I listed would logically reduce the basic part,
> Roy.



You would think that but it's all about quantity of production. Take your average Ford Focus. Electric windows, mirrors, air con, airbags etc etc and all for £15000. Then look at a smaller manufacturer like Lotus. The Elise has none of the above and yet sells for £30000. Yes, you are paying a certain premuim for the Lotus badge but the bulk of the price differential is in the fact that, compared to the Focus, they don't produce or sell as many. It's essentially a car without all the bells and whistles and yet costs double the price. So buying less doesn't always mean it's cheaper.

As for getting back on topic, I've seen the Fox in the flesh in a shop in the centre of York. Can't remember the name of the shop but as for the machine the top and fence was very flimsy with a lot of deflection. I know it's been reviewed in BW this month. I just read the end comments in WHSmiths saying just that about the top, but that it would be fine to start with. I haven't read the main body of the article so sorry if this was said too, but I seem to remember that there was a lot of backlash on the front handle. I also can't remember seeing a height lock of any kind. There may be one, I just didn't notice one. The machine is very light so while I haven't seen it running, I would have thought there would be a fair amount of vibration. This is always touted as a plus for site use which always amuses me as this isn't by any stretch of the imagination a trade quality machine meant for site use. The moulded plactic base looks identical to the Woodstars and all the feather boards are identical so they are both presumably made in the same factory. They will most likely share some of the same components and the motor is probably the same. 

On the subject of motors, a reasonable quality motor of this power and size to buy as a single purchase would be around £60-80. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be significantly cheaper when bought in bulk obviously and there's the sellers profit within that price. I would have thought this price could be as low as £30 when bought by the hundred for a small production run. I didn't look underneath the machine so haven't seen where the vents are to see if dust ingress would be just as much a problem as with a standard router. 

As for a high quailty motor which is what you would need (other wise you'd be just competing with the Fox and Woodstar products) I think £100 for the motor on it's own is more realistic. If a plunge router with handles, base, depth stop etc etc is £250 then I think £100 for just the motor in a suitable casing would be very possible(if not a little unrealistic) however it would probably shoot your budget. The other option as a one off, is to buy one used from the States. I've already mentioned this before but it seems to have been missed, but all of these products exist in the US and this concept is not new at all. Porter Cable sell a multitude of motors only and while strangely they don't seem to list them on their web site at the moment, they are available. A quick search on ebay shows something like this.

While the exchange rate isn't what it was, pound against the dollar, the US probably has the most experience at this sort of product. It would be wise to draw on their R&D IMO. This product isn't just suitable for purpose it's made directly for this purpose so there's virtually a guarantee of good performance. Porter Cable has a very good reputation for quality but isn't widely available in the UK. You could buy this one used at a reasonably small outlay.

As for the cage I don't know what to say about this. Like I said I made my own router lift and it was a huge hassle and ended up being very expensive and that was just in materials. The Jessems one shown has a lot of machined aluminium parts. They are all anodised on top and the quality is top notch. While I wouldn't be bothered about the colour I certainly would want something just as solid. To make this to an "as finished" standard would require significant machining skill and a lot of man hours. They will use castings and then machine the final dimensions with CNC very quickly and accurately at the factory and it probably would cost £100 to make it this way in the UK. Without this level of investment and larger production run environment I just don't think you could get anywhere near the £200 price tag they sell it for, so having been there personally I would just keep saving if I was adamant I wanted to go down that route. You could make something less substantial but go too far and you're again competing with the Fox and Woodstar. 

I am a little confused by your wish to create a quality item at a low price. Does that mean you want to create something better than the Woodstar but at a cheaper price still? Or are you looking to obtain a more middle ground of say £200. I think you said your budget was £150 including extraction. Does this mean you need an extractor in this price or just the facility to extract ie an extraction port on the machine? 

One final point is that of maintenance. With my Trend and probably your Freud all of the spares are available. If your motor burns out then you can buy a replacement. I think the T11 motor is about £138 on it's own. I doubt the same would be ture of the Woodstar of the Fox. If money is a big issue why not just wait for it to fail and then get it repaired.


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## ronhayles (3 Nov 2008)

dom.. you have paraphrased nearly all my conclusions and I really appreciate your interest and concerns and your research on my behalf. I am disabled and need to use a car where ever. To bring a car across to mainland England sets me back over eighty pounds... not the sort of money I would want to use to visit an outlet selling the sort of machines we are discussing. As a DIY nutcase I look for ways to do for myself. The cage I envisage could be produced by my toolmaker mate in his extensive workshop for peanuts. Its the motor I need to source and you guys have been marvelous in clarifying the posibilities. Being of a mindset, I might just do the DIY route. For what I am doing in my workshop, it doesn't have to be super setup. There is no rush as I've a long list written by the missus of jobs to be done in the garden. There again ernie or the lottery mighy come up. At my age everything is a lottery so it's simply not worth getting steamed up about anything. It's been fun sharing this forum with you guys and I will appreciate any further thoughts you have on my problem. For now its start crossing off those jobs on that list regards Ron


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## ronhayles (3 Nov 2008)

Dom..Have just followed up your link to E.BAy and a motor like this excites me. You mentioned R&M and the something following. Can you explain what this is. Would it be practical to import from U.S. Ron


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## p111dom (3 Nov 2008)

ronhayles":31m2bsab said:


> Dom..Have just followed up your link to E.BAy and a motor like this excites me. You mentioned R&M and the something following. Can you explain what this is. Would it be practical to import from U.S. Ron



R&M? I put R&D as in research an development. Just saying that in buying a motor designed for this purpose to let the manufacturer take the hit on these costs. IMO means In My Opinion. So the sentence would read "It would be wise to draw on their research and development in my opinion."

As for importing the jury is out. There are many on this forum who have done it with sucess. I'm not agaist it but whenever I've looked into it the cost has ended up being pretty close to buying over here. I origionally looked at importing a Woodpeckers unilift but after shipping the cost was actually more. Again the current pound against the Dollar makes it worse still. There are others who cold advise you on the import duty costs. I had a quote for $100 for shipping. It was a reasonable heavy item and at the time you were getting nearly 2 dollars to the pound so it would have been about £50. However now it's only 1.5 dollars to the pound. Presuming the motor goes for $60 and the shipping is $100 that would cost you about £105 ish. Then there's import duty which the % I can't remember. Your location might have differing rates on duty. That said for £100 or so you'd get a top quality motor with speed control, made for exactly that purpose and better in quality that the Fox or Woodstar options. That would leave £50 for the cage which I'm not sure you could do. I think materials for my lift were about £60-80 and to be honnest it wasn't great. Better than not having one but like I said in retrospect I think I'd buy a lift if I were in that situation again. Then there's also the need for a 110v box if you don't already have one but that's not a huge deal, £10 from a boot sale. Then theres the time and hassle etc. While you're importing the motor you could also imort the lift. It shouldn't add alot to the shipping cost and over there the lift is about $200 so that's about £133. That would be £240 plus £10 for the box but for £250, thats a good price for probably one of the best set ups you could get. 

Obviously then you need to make a table. Mine cost £200 in materials alone buy was well worth it. I made my own fence to save money and it's been fine. Many on this forum rate the Incra fence system. The quality is excellent and you can do things with it simple not possible without. But that's more money again. My T11 was £234 but is a little bit more expensive these days so total for my set up was £434. That sounds expensive but when you see what it can do, really it's not.


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## ronhayles (3 Nov 2008)

Thanks for the explanation. Too wet in the garden so spent an hour on Porter Cable on Amazon..Makes you spit when you see what is available over there. 3hp motor for about £80. I have a 112 volt trans so no problem. Having done your own I can understand you warning me of the pitfalls but I like a challenge and I do have the backup of my mate who is capable of producing the necessary for the cage and the lift For health reasons, I aim for a bench table. I have the insert plate and Axminster's cast unit to fix the fence to or I can just transfer from my present set up. I am past big projects..they go to my brother, a trained woodworker. I simply like to play with wood making small boxes and wall and mantle clocks. maximum timber 3/4 inch thick. I source reclaimed timber and have plenty to keep me going. I picked up a report from another thread on our Forum. He imported a Porter unit but he had relatives in the States. I'm not so lucky. Another report told that Porter units available in this country are modifies for 240v and this affects the speeds. I don't know how relevant this is. I love living on our Island but it can be so limiting and frustrating at times like this. I'm chasing a Camera tripod. There is the choice of just one manufacturer here, but we have the sea to drown our sorrows by regards Ron


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## ian currie (10 Nov 2008)

Hi gents. Ron really stirred up a hornets nest eh?.
Whilst you guys have been talkin i've been giving the Woodstar a thrashing. and some of you may be surprised but its turned out to be an great little tool, even used semi-professionally.

Mated with a set of Trend half inch cutters it will do a splendid job. 

I've used it on Hardwood, softwood and MDF with very good results.

My opinion is that its a bargain at £160 and with the benefit of hindsight i would have willingly paid nearer £250 ! its that good !

My early problem was my over enthusiastic son not giving it a breather, pushing metre after metre of oak through it. 

There are a few bits of advice i can offer if anyone gets serious about trying one like(beware not to buy the older model, not many left on offer now)and you should connect a powerful vac to its port etc etc. e.mail me if needed ([email protected])

MY ADVICE RON IS GET A WOODSTAR and stop messing about.

all the best
ian 
I'm in Kidderminster if anyone wants to try the beast. Nb (the FOX is a toy compared to the Woodstar)


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## ronhayles (10 Nov 2008)

Thanks for the update Ian. Hornets!!!..Naaaah. baa lambs.... bleating.. It's all my fault. Should have simply asked for reviews of the Woodstar and NOT mention that my previous router had failed due to dust ingress. Up sufaced the...jumpie to conclusions clan...except that it was the manufacturer who gave the diagnosis. Should have also mentioned that I have been producing sawdust since the end of the last war!! For reasons that are beyond simple opinion, I need a table based router. Then wondered if anyone else had thought of a dedicated motor, and yes, they had. Good news...however..your report of the Woodstar has taken me out of dreamland and into realising that this machine will do me nicely. Over the years of buying innovative tools, I have reached the conclusion to let others discover any potential weaknesses that need sorting before parting with my money...So, Yes...I will confound the doubters and get a Woodster but I will wait a while just to make sure it doesn't turn up in Santa's stocking. Wish I was in your region, Ian. Would love to come and smell your sawdust. You did raise the issue of dealing with the resulting dust. You have obviously sorted this. I would be grateful if you would indulge me with your method. Thanks again..regards Ron.


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## ivan (10 Nov 2008)

Yes. Ron, we have many and varied wonderful UK apple varieties. I used to work in Kent for the day job, helping develop farm businesses, living in Faversham close to Brogdale. Unfortuately growers in Kent were generally small scale and minds fixed in traditional wholesale auction markets. They resented the discipline required for coperative marketing. The majority of the industry was thus its own worst enemy and it declined steadily. There are a few exeptions, but not many!
Supermarkets are often blamed for the demise of this or that; however they offer shelf space to what sells. _Customers_ preferred what they saw as a a nicer looking apple, and in general, (ie apart from Cox) it wasn't UK grown. It was the great British housewife who was making her choice, and the UK growers who pretended it wasn't happening.


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## ronhayles (10 Nov 2008)

Hi Ivan. I don't blame the supermarkets for doing what gives them a profit. I know that Brogdale and Wisley did their darndest to pursuade the supermarkets to support local fruit. French apples come into season four weeks before our apples. The housewife, seeing these, became used to buying them, so why should the supermarkets change suppliers. Without english apples available it is simple to then say that the customer prefers the french. As for appearances, I have twelve english apple varieties in my garden and I can be sure that they match anything that the french can produce in size and quality. As for flavour, the french apples are simply bland compared to the english apple that takes longer to mature and produces more sugar content. I shall be very sad when my own supply runs out and I am back to foreign fruit. As you so rightly say, it is up to the producer to do their part in producing what the customer wants. I've not been Kent way for several years now. It was a yearly trip to Brogdale and not just for the apples. regards Ron.


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## ronhayles (23 Nov 2009)

have just beeen reading through this forum regarding the Woodstar shaper. can't believe I was so bolshy. Must have been the depressives. However!! am just about to order the woodstar. My diy scheme came to naught because my mate had to cope with his wife's terminal illness. Isn't age a real bore. Any comments or any updates or even a movement towards a dedicted router unit for under table use. Ron


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