# Holdfast Group Buy - May have found a UK Blacksmith



## ByronBlack

Through one of my contacts at work, I may have found a blacksmith who can make some holdfasts. He works a lot for national heritage and has an old fasion forge setup in a location that was mentioned in the doomsday book - very cool.

I'll be passing on the gramecy holdfast when it arrives, and hopefully he'll make a prototype, if all goes well, and if he is interested, I may be able to organise a group buy to make it his worthwhile.

I don't know the cost as of yet, but I've asked if he can do it for a similar price to the gramercy's, I'll know more once the prototype comes back, this might take some time as it's going through a contact at work, and then on to the backsmith.

If all goes well, can anyone who wants some let me know in this thread, the more we can get the better the cost will be.

Cheers.


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## TrimTheKing

Yep, I would be interested in 2, maybe 4 depending on price.


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## PeterBassett

Two for me please.


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## Matt_S

I'd be interested, depending on the price though really so don't want to commit!


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## ByronBlack

Don't worry, expressing an interest is all i'm looking for at the moment, no one will be held to anything, I just need to gauge the interest so that I can negotiate a good price with the smithy - this all depends on whether the prototype comes out well.


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## Philly

Count me in!
Philly


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## Matt_S

Re-read your post



> I've asked if he can do it for a similar price to the gramercy's



As in the price they sell for in America? I looked up their site and it said 32USD for a pair, that's only about £20 isn't it?


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## ByronBlack

Matt, at the moment, I have no idea what the costs will be, but yes I'm hoping that he can do them for around that, but as I've not spoken to him yet (going through a contact at work initially) I have no idea what he will want to charge - hence the reason for the group buy, the more I have to go to him with, the more room for negotiating i'll have.


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## dannykaye

two depending on price, if he is anywhere near here he could look at the Phil Koontz one too


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## laird

I could also be interested in a couple.


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## ondablade

Just a caution FYI Byron. Popular Woodworking (Chris Schwarz) set out to run a review of holdfasts in their Autumn 2005 issue. They found in essence that they couldn't do it in any very effective way.

Most of the cheap cast items flat didn't work (grip) or broke, and of the Grammercy and Koontz (forged) ones that did the found that good gripping was determined by subtle details in the tolerancing and surface of the bench holes, and the angle of the head.

The key recommendation coming out of the piece was that if you plan to use holdfasts on a bench that it's best to (a) buy good forged ones, and (b) drill test holes using the same method in the material you plan to make the bench from and test before building or especially drilling the bench.

Any blacksmith getting into this would need it sounds to be prepared to put lots of time in to get to understand the variables. i.e. he'd probably need to see it as a bit of a labour of love/development project delivering the ability to produce a product for the future rather than just a commission to bend a few bits of steel rod...


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## SVB

I would be interested in 2, maybe 4 depending on price.

S


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## paulm

I would be interested in a couple too, dependant on price.

Cheers, Paul


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## ByronBlack

ondablade":f7xfcdjl said:


> Just a caution FYI Byron. Popular Woodworking (Chris Schwarz) set out to run a review of holdfasts in their Autumn 2005 issue. They found in essence that they couldn't do it in any very effective way.
> 
> Most of the cheap cast items flat didn't work (grip) or broke, and of the Grammercy and Koontz (forged) ones that did the found that good gripping was determined by subtle details in the tolerancing and surface of the bench holes, and the angle of the head.
> 
> The key recommendation coming out of the piece was that if you plan to use holdfasts on a bench that it's best to (a) buy good forged ones, and (b) drill test holes using the same method in the material you plan to make the bench from and test before building or especially drilling the bench.
> 
> Any blacksmith getting into this would need it sounds to be prepared to put lots of time in to get to understand the variables. i.e. he'd probably need to see it as a bit of a labour of love/development project delivering the ability to produce a product for the future rather than just a commission to bend a few bits of steel rod...



Ian, I've read the article a few times, so i'm aware of the issues, and will convey that to the blacksmith (I'll be providing him with a print-out so that he can see what I am after). That is why I'm having a prototype made first.

I'll have him model it on the gramercy which is a popular holdfast with a good reputation. It goes without saying that there will be certain conditions/limits of ones bench that need to be considered, but we arent taking about the pinnacle of engineering here, and I'm sure an experienced smithy will know what he is doing.


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## studders

Definitely interested. Possibly want 2 dependent on cost.


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## AndyT

I'm in (for 2 please)!

I want some like Roy Underhill uses - one knock of a mallet to set or release.


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## ByronBlack

AndyT":3nf38pdp said:


> I'm in!
> 
> I want some like Roy Underhill uses - one knock of a mallet to set or release.



Thats what I'm hoping for Andy,

When you all express an interest, can you let me know how many you are likely to want (I know some of you already have done) - just so I can get an idea of numbers, thanks.


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## Mike.C

ByronBlack":2bzpp6bp said:


> AndyT":2bzpp6bp said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in!
> 
> I want some like Roy Underhill uses - one knock of a mallet to set or release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats what I'm hoping for Andy,
> 
> When you all express an interest, can you let me know how many you are likely to want (I know some of you already have done) - just so I can get an idea of numbers, thanks.
Click to expand...


Colin, any chance of a picture, to give me some idea of the ones you hope to have made. Sorry to be a pain mate 

Cheers

Mike


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## head clansman

hi mike

I like the avatar mate , didn't realise it was you for a wee while , was wondering where you got to , yes please Colin some pics please .hc


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## SeanG

I would be interested in two please.

Sean


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## OPJ

Yes, please. I could also be interested in a pair, depending on the price.


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## Mike.C

head clansman":zh8gnopn said:


> hi mike
> 
> I like the avatar mate , didn't realise it was you for a wee while , was wondering where you got to , yes please Colin some pics please .hc



Thanks Martin, Do you remember World Cup Willy from the 1966 world cup?
I have sidelined the old Arsenal avatar while the competition is is on. :lol:

Cheers

Mike


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## ByronBlack

The holdfast I'll be giving to him to model will be the gramercy ones







Whether or not they'll actually look that I don't know right now. I won't really any more details until a week or two once he has the gramercy in his hands and he gives me the yay or nay. I can't imagine it would look too different really, it's a common design and works well.


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## head clansman

hi mike 

:-k #-o i cane remember an old guy who use to follow the team where every they played dont know if that was him :?: . yea it's footy time again, time to get a loads of beer in, feet up :lol: :lol: hc 8) :wink:


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## head clansman

hi Colin 

provisionally 2 depending on price. hc


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## Mike.C

Colin thanks very much for taking the time to post the photos. There are so many on the market from the cheap and nasty to the best, with some strange looking ones in between, so I just needed to know what you had in mind. :wink:

Count me in mate, if the price is right.

Cheers

Mike


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## ByronBlack

Mike - how many would you want?


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## Mike.C

ByronBlack":3nj0cu50 said:


> Mike - how many would you want?


 
I don't want to let you down or mess your order up mate, so can I say two at the moment, but if the price is real good then four.  Does that make sense? 

Cheers 

Mike


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## WellsWood

Count me in Colin. I'll have a pair if they're comparable to the Gramercy in performance/price. I have one thanks to Wizer's generosity a while back, and can confirm that they're absolutely the mutt's nuts. Also they don't seem overly fussy about hole size - mine works almost as well in a 20mm hole in 45mm thick chipboard/blockboard as it does in a 19mm hole in 50mm Oak.

I may be wrong (it's not unheard of), but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Gramercy ones were made of spring steel - just a thought.


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## ByronBlack

Mike - there is no issue of letting me down - like I said, currently there is no commitment, i'm just gauging the rough numbers so if the smithy is happy doing them I can negotiate on price, so i'm just looking for a rough idea of what every would like in an ideal world if they were priced right.

Mark - glad you confirmed your experience of the gramercy's - its nice to know it works well in differing benchtop thicknesses.


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## miles_hot

I to would be interested in 2-4 depending on price.

Miles


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## nimmaj

probably 2 for me - many thanks indeed for organising

ben


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## clk230

will be interested in 2 depending on price


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## Benchwayze

Count me too please Byron. 

Regards

John


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## Kane

If you need a smith give British Blades a try, lots of skilled metal workers there ....

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/content.php


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## liamscanlan

I would be interested in 2 at least (possibly 4)

Liam


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## flounder

Hi Byron,

Put me down for two too please!

Cheers


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## Mikey R

I might be interested in a couple!


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## barkwindjammer

How much do the Gramercy ones cost ?


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## Tom K

$31.95 a pair plus tax and shipping.


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## ByronBlack

I received my gramarcy's last weekend, and the entire cost for a pair with shipping VAT and customs comes to £70.

I have given one of the gramery's to my contact at work, and he will be getting a prototype made by the blacksmith in the next week, as soon as I've got it back and have tested it, I'll let you all know what he will charge assuming he wants to do a larger run after the prototype.


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## superunknown

Could you pencil me in for 2, again this depends on price. If they will be anything like the ones shown in the picture, should spot on!

Thank you.

Steve


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## TEO

Hi I'd be interested in a pair depending price,
Thanks,
T


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## Dan-K

I'd consider getting a pair also


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## eoinsgaff

I'd also be interested in a pair. There would be a shipping issue needed to be accounted for in price before I could commit.

Regards

Eoin


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## Eddie

Im Interested Too,
Eddie


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## sqwheezle

I would definitely be interested in a pair of these. Planning a Scwarz/Roubo bench in the near future.

Now, do you think your blacksmith might make drawbore pins that aren't a stupid price?

Cheers


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## Ironballs

Not sure what you'll get with updates as over on TWH Colin says he's received a ban from UKW, he doesn't know why and he was wanting to keep you all updated with where he was with the holdfasts.

Can only suggest you try him on TWH - and this isn't a veiled plug for TWH either, just being practical!

Cheers

Damian


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## PeterBassett

TWH? Go on give us a clue.


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## Mike.C

Ironballs":3ut4nshn said:


> Not sure what you'll get with updates as over on TWH Colin says he's received a ban from UKW, he doesn't know why and he was wanting to keep you all updated with where he was with the holdfasts.
> 
> Can only suggest you try him on TWH - and this isn't a veiled plug for TWH either, just being practical!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Damian



I think that it has all been sorted out now and that Colin is posting here again. https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post ... ht=#508348

Pete TWH is www.thewoodhaven.co.uk

Cheers

Mike


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## Ironballs

Ah, looks like you're right, please ignore me then


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## wizer

I think Colin might still be waiting on a reply from his blacksmith contact.


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## PeterBassett

Mike.C":i4ioh3hp said:


> Pete TWH is www.thewoodhaven.co.uk



Ah, got ya.


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## ByronBlack

Sorry chaps, I should have updated this post a few days ago, but been a bit busy.

Basically, the blacksmith has been on holiday for a week, each time my contact goes past to drop in he has been closed. However, he has phoned him this week and will be dropping off the holdfast towards the end of the week. 

Fingers crossed it shouldn't take too long after that to find out if he can do them.

Sorry for this taking so long, but trying to do this via a third party is slowing things down a bit. But as and when I get the go-ahead, I will be visiting the blacksmith myself and doing any deals for future holdfasts direct.

I'll update again as soon as I have some more news.


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## sqwheezle

Hi

Anything happening out there or is there a problem with this forum?


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## Mike.C

sqwheezle":26j6d4jf said:


> Hi
> 
> Anything happening out there or is there a problem with this forum?



I'm sure that Colin will keep us upto date as soon as he can. :wink: 

As far as I know there is nothing wrong with the forum, what makes you think that?

Cheers

Mike


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## ByronBlack

Nothing wrong with the forum. I've been on holiday for the past week, and I'm being mucked about by my colleague who was supposed to be talking to the blacksmith. It will be resolved one way or the other on tuesday.


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## Tony Spear

BB:

If you do happen to run into difficulties with all this I have a mate who's a member of the Worshipful Company of Master Blacksmiths who may be able to help.

He actually lives near Reigate, but if that's too far, I'm sure he could put you in the right direction for somebody nearer.


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## ByronBlack

Spoke to my colleague today. I'm still being messed about, so it seems it's a no go I'm afraid chaps. If the status every changes, I'll certainly let you know. Sorry for taking so long over this.


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## Mike.C

ByronBlack":1li87ts3 said:


> Spoke to my colleague today. I'm still being messed about, so it seems it's a no go I'm afraid chaps. If the status every changes, I'll certainly let you know. Sorry for taking so long over this.



Oh sugar, thanks for trying anyway Colin.

Cheers

Mike


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## laird

No probs. Thanks for all your effort.


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## Benchwayze

laird":6hszca3i said:


> No probs. Thanks for all your effort.



Ditto Byron... Good try...

Regards 
John


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## barkwindjammer

Know any Blacksmiths Dibs ?


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## toolsntat

Did you try him :?: 

http://www.wulfdalesmithy.com/

Andy


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## wizer

I'll pick this up chaps, if no one else has?


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## eoinsgaff

Thanks very much Byron, the effort is appreciated. 

Regards

Eoin


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## wizer

Guys

I just visited a fascinating local blacksmith. The family have been there for over 100yrs passing down from generation to generation. The guy I met was probably in his late 40's and his father was there, very elderly but still making things in the forge.

Anyway. I left a gramercy holdfast with him and he's going to see what he can do. He wasn't sure what the steel was. TFWW only suggests that it is 'modern formed wire'. 

Those that have holdfasts, could you give me an accurate measurement of the bar diameter ? 

He's going to have a play around and get back to me. This is an exploratory process, so it will take patience on our part, until we find the right formula.

Would anyone care to comment on what steel this might?

Also, can anyone tell me what the patent covers? I don't want to get myself in hot water.


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## wizer

Answering my own question:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7571631.pdf




> *Method of manufacturing a woodworker's holdfast*
> _United States Patent 7571631_
> A semi-automated method for manufacturing a woodworker's holdfast tool from an unheated length of mild steel rod includes forging a flattened contact surface at one end of the rod and subsequently bending the rod upwardly away from the contact surface and forming the crook portion in an automated wire forming machine configured to exceed the desired working angle during cold forming of the crook portion to account for the resilience of the rod when the bending force is removed.



So it appears the patent just covers the factory process, so we should be fine using a blacksmith.

It also confirms our thoughts that it is just mild steel.

I'll let the blacksmith know.


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## AndyT

Sounds interesting Tom - many thanks for picking this up and maybe moving it on.

I don't have any holdfasts to check but I think I read somewhere that the post needs to be tough and stiff, while the 'leaf' needs a bit of spring in it. Maybe your blacksmith can temper the steel so that the right springiness is there?


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## Dibs-h

barkwindjammer":mid4m5pp said:


> Know any Blacksmiths Dibs ?



I've been following the thread. 

From reading the patent info - it appears (to me anyway) that the readily available ones are machine made. Therein lies the problem - machine made is (almost) always the cheaper option. Now having someone make them by hand - my suspicion is that it will cost more. Or they could cost less - if the profit margins on the commercial ones are so high.

Now my little black book is full of nbrs - so I dare say 30 mins or so of phone calls later, there is a reasonable chance that I could arrive at the door of someone who could duplicate them, but my life hasn't quite recovered from the current Group Buy. So I'll just stand on the sidelines for the moment. :wink:


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## wizer

Thanks Dibs. I wouldn't want to risk the manufactured route, mainly for treading on Joel's feet. 

I'm going to go for a few quotes from local blacksmiths and see what hand-made is going to cost us. Importing the gramercy ones at the moment will cost you between £35 and £40. I'm not sure if 'hand-made' is worth more than that or not, but I'd be aiming for less to make it worth while. The gramercy ones are that good that I don't think it would be worth bothering if they came out more expensive.


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## WellsWood

wizer":ynper8wq said:


> ... The gramercy ones are that good that I don't think it would be worth bothering if they came out more expensive.



Damn right. An alternative might be to persuade a certain large tool retailer with massive buying power to stock them in this country. Although given that with currently stocked items from across the pond it can still work out cheaper to import it yourself that may not help.

I had a conversation with Mike Jeffrey at Sittingbourne a few weeks ago about this very subject. Surprisingly he'd never heard of Gramercy's, nor even this type of hold-down, and consequently I promised to take one in for him to see next time I was in. Unfortunately that opportunity hasn't happened yet, which is a shame, since from my description he seemed to surmise it was something they should consider stocking.

BTW the diameter of the important bit (the straight bit that goes in the bench hole) Tom is 18.2mm or 0.72" or thereabouts - please don't ask what that is in fractions. I don't think it's all that critical TBH considering the variation in hole size that they tolerate. I reckon the angle of the bend may be the clever bit, since it's that along with the length of the "head" which dictates the skewing force in the hole and hence the friction to lock it in place.


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## wizer

Thanks for that Mark. Luckily, whilst with the blacksmith earlier, he guessed it would be 18.2 stock, from his catalogue. The annoying thing was he couldn't find a piece, so he might have to order a bit in.

I do wonder why someone like Matthew hasn't looked into this. Perhaps he has and there is a reason they've not come to market in the UK. Similarly, as you suggest, no one has imported them from Gramercy. The patent is for a factory process, which suggests that a large order would be relatively simple and cost effective.

I can onyl guess that no one in the UK feels that this style of holdfast would be any more successful than what they already stock.


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## 9fingers

WellsWood":2wk445cq said:


> BTW the diameter of the important bit (the straight bit that goes in the bench hole) Tom is 18.2mm or 0.72" or thereabouts - please don't ask what that is in fractions.



The 'merkins would know this as 23/32" diameter

Bob


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## Alf

Rather than relying on the mass-manufactured example, it might be worth sharing the where's and wherefores behind them with the smith so he can make more informed decisions on how to approach the problem. Unless you want a facsimile of the Gramercy of course. Me, if I was going to pay for hand-forged, I'd like them to look, well, hand-forged! :lol:


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## ondablade

As before it seems to me too that if the game is just to source some holdfasts then it's probably most cost effective to buy from the US.

If on the other hand it's about hand made then by all means have a go. I've several of the GM variety. 

To waffle a bit. My sense (purely from the feel and the 'ring') is that whatever the steel is it's a bit more lively/springy than annealed mild steel: i.e. something with a little more carbon and/or some alloying elements - or else it's work hardened from the drawing and/or bending processes. This'd make some sense, as if it's too ductile/fully annealed/dead it'd probably deform far too easily when you whack it, and might lose it's set.

They have a matt but fairly bright finish, could be it's drawn stock of some sort (this too would work harden it a bit), maybe a higher grade reinforcing bar or something like that.

The Popular woodworking article mentioned before has quite a bit in it (but never really bottomed) what the magic ingredient in a reliably functioning holdfast is. Did they conclude that the angle between the clamping foot's face and the shank was important? There was suspiciously little mention of the metallurgy or heat treatment/state of the steel. Either way it'd be maybe be worth getting a copy to the blacksmith. (I may have it somewhere if it would help Wiz)

Here's more heresy. It seems to me that the blacksmiths bit is perhaps mostly in forging the foot, and that there's probably quite a grey area between 'factory' and 'hand' made.

There's lots of CNC bar and tube benders about these days that would probably give a very accurately reproducible bend, and not cost a lot. Maybe mix the two? I can't imagine a guy whacking a bar around the tail of an anvil getting it spot on every time....

Heat treatment is probably the other variable. Quenching and tempering by a blacksmith is possibly a bit hit and miss too unless he's using ovens and the like. On the other hand some sort of drawn bar might be sufficiently (and consistently) work hardened as it comes, and the bending would add to this.

I wouldn't worry to much about the patent, as there's a gazillion ways to form them unless there's something very subtle going on in there. The point is that they are handing patents out for almost anything these days.

If you really want it to look hand made and old you could chuck it in one of those fettling drums full of steel slag or the like for a while - it'd roughen up the shank nicely too :wink:


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## squib

Mine cost £40 a pair(i think) from my blacksmith and he designed the leaf ends, I asked him to do them very rustic to suit my bench, they are mild steel and are i think 18mm which grip well in a 19mm or 3/4" hole, they work brilliantly and i really clout them sometimes. I have only had them for a few months but there is no sign of them needing resetting and if they do i can do it as the steel is not brittle.


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## wizer

Thanks for that information Bob. I will pass it on to my blacksmith. I'm also going to try others smiths to get more quotes.

squib. Have you ever posted a pic of your holdfasts? Also, have you measured the angle?

In terms of the decoration on the face. I'll ask the guy, but I suspect it's going to up the price. By how much I don't know. If it's significant then maybe we can offer a choice between plain, like the gramercy or decorated with a leaf or something.


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## AndyT

Exactly Alf, that's the article I had read but forgotten. This is the critical bit:

_The process of hand forging alters the material used in the holdfast, and leaves it with an ideal set of properties – strong enough to be hit smartly, yet flexible enough to bend and act as a spring to hold the work. Weber contends that modern fabrication methods tend to produce a metal with a more crystalline structure that is more likely to break, and less likely to bend. The sizes and angles may be similar, but there is a world of difference in how the two types function._

So I think Alf is yet again, spot on with her suggestion.


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## Alf

Well it struck me it's a bit like someone bringing one of us a plastic stacking chair and saying "I want this" - as woodworker's we'd be struggling to reproduce it. But if all they actually want is a _chair_, "we have the technology" as the saying goes. Actually I should try and gather this info together myself and go and tackle the blacksmith in the next village - but, as ever, it's finding the tuits.


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## squib

Here is a pic i posted a while ago........the angle was set by drilling a block the same thickness as my bench and setting accordingly, this angle is therefore slightly dependent on bench thickness however just over 90 is how mine are.


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## wizer

Hey squid, thanks for that. They look nice. Any reason for the differing lengths other than deeper work holding capacity? Are they still effective at full depth?

If this blacksmith that I've contacted is happy to go ahead then I'll make up a mini bench raiser type thing and take it down so we can play with angles.

That knife looks interesting? Made by the same smithy?


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## squib

The different lengths are slightly down to the amount of bar available on the day,one of the long ones is a jack handle from the hedge in his garden! The other reason is that the two shorter ones i use in my sliding deadman, these are harder to set as the deadman is a little slack.The cheese knife is made by another metalman who only uses recycled metal and the blade is from an old saw and keeps a very fine edge. My holdfasts seem to grip full length.Hope this helps.


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## wizer

Thanks squib. Sorry for so many questions.

That's a great bench!


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## Tony Spear

Tony Spear":1qjyqkp4 said:


> BB:
> 
> If you do happen to run into difficulties with all this I have a mate who's a member of the Worshipful Company of Master Blacksmiths who may be able to help.
> 
> He actually lives near Reigate, but if that's too far, I'm sure he could put you in the right direction for somebody nearer.



Apparently, when a Blacksmith needs 3 hands, he uses a bent piece of metal, one end of which is belted into a hole in his anvil.

And guesss what it's called??????

When I build my new bench, I know where my Holdfasts will come from.......   

Tom, check your PM's.


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## squib

One for the record....my holdfasts are made from 16mm stock and drop into 19mm holes in the bench....cheers Squib.


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## ondablade

Another thread with more info on holdfasts: http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthread ... art=1&vc=1


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## Tony Spear

I was about to make a further comment but I've just realised that we're getting into LN v. Clifton type territory now, so I'll stick with wjhat I've already said..... :?


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## sqwheezle

Lovely bench, Squib. What wood did you use?


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## squib

The legs and top are/were greenish chestnut the side spreaders are oak and the vice, deadman and rail are sycamore.The design was inspired by one found on the sunken warship Vasa, built and sunk 1628!
here is a pic, i have taken the crotchet by the vice off mine as i find it gets in the way most of the time.


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## Richard T

I've only just noticed this thread ... a bit embarassing - it's a pretty simple job compared to the heavy duty gothic towel rail brackets I've just finished.
I just looked at the Gramercy page and they say
"made of modern formed wire, in a modern factory." 
I would guess they mean drawn bright mild steel. In fact I'm sure they do. 
They also say that they are designed for a 3/4" bench hole. If it's not a too personal question, are everyones holes the same size? I need to order some more bar soon anyway, so I could add extra round stock of the right size. 
If I get round to lighting the forge today I'll have a play with making one for the anvil (I've been using a big, screw-down clamp through the hardy hole up until now) I'll have a play around, get a feel of how it works and let you know.


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## sqwheezle

Thanks, Squib. I'm very inspired. I'll let you know how I get on.


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## wizer

Hi Richard. I take it that you are a blacksmith then? Could you let me know ASAP whether you can do them and if you're willing to do them for us as a group buy. As I'll need to cancel the blacksmith I found who is looking into this for us.


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## Richard T

Tom, go ahead with your guy if you've already set the wheels in motion. I don't want to mess anyone about. 
As I said, tis a pity I didn't notice this thread earlier. 
However, I will have a go at making one today - just to see if it works. 
Turns out the round (pritchel) hole in my anvil is conveniently 3/4" so my prototype should be right viz copying the Gramercy patern. And I have about 4' of 5/8" bar to try. 
Of course if I were to make enough for the group I'd need to order some round bar - which I certainly could with the next order. 
So really I'm just a plan B if needs be.


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## wizer

Ok well either way your findings will be very useful. Please let us know how you get on. My blacksmith isn't a woodworker and it's hard explaining exactly what it needs to do.


----------



## Richard T

Well that was pretty quick and easy. 
What it amounts to is flattening the end of the bar, bending it twice and cutting it off. Errm ... that's it. I suppose that the underside of the foot that makes contact with the job could be cleaned up and polished but again, that's no major job. 
If anyone was wondering why there is a dimple at the front of the Garmercy it's where it was bent over the corner of the anvil - mine has one too. 

Sorry I can't take photos yet, (my camera girl is attending to family crisis over in Felixstow) but will supply asap.


----------



## wizer

What diameter bar did you use and could you supply them to the masses? Price?


----------



## Richard T

I used 5/8". 
I just drilled a 3/4" hole in a bench-thick piece of pine and it really works well. I've never had one of these to play with before - they're good aren't they?  
To supply the masses, I would need to buy some stock - don't know off hand how much 5/8 bar would be but when I bought the last lot of square bar stock I seem to remember it not being too extortionate. 
Gramercy want $31.95 per pair - how much is that in feet and inches these days? What ever it is I'm sure I could do it for less. Postage, on the other hand could be narsty....


----------



## Richard T

Right, lots of things to think ahead on. 
I've counted how many there has been an interest expressed for so far on this thread - I make it poss 64 :shock: so buying enough bar for that many would be quite a purchase. 
I think if I were to attempt that many I'd make a jig for flattening the foot so they look nice and professional like the machine stamped Gramercy ones - also they could probably do with being wire bushed, maybe not quite as shiny but enough to get an even finish, free of scale to lock and unlock smoothly. 
And having said that the underside of the foot could be polished, after playing with the one I made this morning all day, I think it would be better just brushed too - I can easily tap it hard enough to make an impression polished or not. 
Gramercy want $31.95 Per pair which (today) is apparently £20.40.
All in all I think If I were to make these to sell generally I'd ask £16 per pair as I might not sell many or often, but as it's you lot, how about £14? 
Comments please on whether you think this is good, bad or outrageous. 
I don't know how much postage would be - not that it's going to be anything like from the USA - but it's still not going to be pretty, it's heavy stuff. 

As for the twiddly leaf forms, I really think that as well as taking me longer to make, alot of strength and firmness could be lost; besides I think they look good as they are.
Thoughts? Ideas? Abuse?


----------



## 9fingers

One of the cheapest carriers is parcel-2-go.
It depends a bit on size but around £8 inc vat is typical for upto about 20Kg.
One nice thing is that the recipient can initiate the process and pay the costs just emailing a special label to the sender.
So you would just need to cover the manufacturing cost and some packaging if you wanted to do it that way.

hth

Bob


----------



## AndyT

That sounds sensible and encouraging, Richard - "I'm in!"

Postage should be only about £6 - you could look at the on-line courier clearing houses aimed at ebay, for instance - which would give you the option of having them collected from you, rather than overwhelming your local post office!

What about payment?

Cheque in the post, in advance? Paypal?


----------



## sqwheezle

Well done that man! I think the price is excellent. Paypal is very easy to do and I've used Parcel2go and was impressed with them. I'd be up for two pairs.


----------



## Richard T

I think that I need to hear from Tom what the situation is with his chap and some price comparrison before I go charging ahead. But thanks for the encouragement folks. 
Also there is still a bit of tweaking to be done - I only made a prototype this morning having never seen or used one before.... eg: I very carefully made the sole of the foot square to the shaft. Wrong!! The sole of the foot has to sit flat on the job when the shaft is slightly diaganally wedged in the hole. Also, I think that mine has a slightly sharper main angle than the Gramercy so I shall either change the one I have or make the next one slightly more and compare them. 
Then of course, I have to order steel ..... wait for steel... :roll: 

I was thinking that in the meantime maybe some kind of pass-around might be organised with a prototype? (I get the suspision that something similar may have happened around here before) Or maybe one might find its way to a gathering etc

I think that swmom is better suited to sorting out payment methods .. (as well as taking photos) I'm doing the hammering. 
Some interesting carriage ideas too. We'll look into them.


----------



## Good Surname or what ?

Sounds encouraging. The price looks great so if this goes ahead I'd be up for 2 pairs.


----------



## barkwindjammer

John O'Leary: What can we do for you Father?
Dougal: I was looking for a pair of handcuffs actually.
John: A pair of handcuffs? What do you need them for?
Dougal: Oh nothing much, they're for me and Ted.
Mary: You and Father Ted?
Dougal: Yeah, we're just trying something out.
John: Well emm, actually, funnily enough we do have a pair. Sergeant Thornton left them here when he retired.
Dougal: Retired from what?
John: From the police.
Dougal: The police? Was Sergeant Thornton a policeman?
John: Emm, he was yes. Why do you think he wore the uniform?
Dougal: Oh I thought he was just having a laugh.
John: Anyway here's the handcuffs.
Dougal: Great, bye now.


----------



## barkwindjammer

I'll take a two pairs as well,


----------



## Richard T

Blimey, up to 72 already and I don't even know if I'm doing it.  



Ted: You over reacted there Dougal; when he asked me where I was when Kennedy was shot, he wasn't trying to accuse me of anything.


----------



## Mike.C

Richard T":2rq0fzv7 said:


> Blimey, up to 72 already and I don't even know if I'm doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Ted: You over reacted there Dougal; when he asked me where I was when Kennedy was shot, he wasn't trying to accuse me of anything.



I cannot speak for the man, but I am sure that at that price Tom will have no objections to you making them :wink: 

As for the hand around I think the cost of postage may preclude this, but I for one would be happy to take the word of one or two members who may happen to get their hands on some.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## wizer

All yours Richard. I was only trying to help everyone. If we have a resident blacksmith then it just doesn't make sense to 'outsource' it. I'd be happy to road test your design to make sure it pasts muster.


----------



## Richard T

Thanks Mike, thanks Tom, 
Oaky Doaky then - here we go. I'll order steel in the morning.


----------



## wizer

Richard, before you order stock. It might be an idea to get a 2nd opinion on the end product. Could you send the holdfast to either myself or someone else on the board and we could offer our opinion on how they compare to 'the real thing'.

Just a suggestion. I'm also still waiting for the prototype from the smith I contacted, so I could compare the strengths and weaknesses of both designs and possibly get some tips on how the other guy did it.


Let me know what you think.


----------



## BMac

I would like to order a pair too please.

Brendan


----------



## cambournepete

Count me in for a pair too please


----------



## Mike.C

wizer":wuwj7n8l said:


> Richard, before you order stock. It might be an idea to get a 2nd opinion on the end product. Could you send the holdfast to either myself or someone else on the board and we could offer our opinion on how they compare to 'the real thing'.
> 
> Just a suggestion. I'm also still waiting for the prototype from the smith I contacted, so I could compare the strengths and weaknesses of both designs and possibly get some tips on how the other guy did it.
> 
> 
> Let me know what you think.



Tom have you asked any of the members over at the Haven? Might as well get Richard as big an order as we can  

Cheers

Mike


----------



## wizer

There is a parallel threadgoing over on The Wood Haven forum.


----------



## Mike.C

wizer":31mdl222 said:


> There is a parallel threadgoing over on The Wood Haven forum.



Thanks Tom, It looks like forum members from both forums may have already showed their interest over here.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## PeterBassett

Hi.

At £14 per pair plus postage I too would like to up my order to two pairs.

I also agree that a pass round those in the know would be a good thing. (I'm not included in that list!)

Thanks

Pete


----------



## Richard T

Ok. I'll make another one with a wider angle, tweak the first one and send the better to Tom. (after he sends me his address...)


----------



## jt

Could I be added to the list for a pair of these? thanks


----------



## Richard T

Am I right in thinking that the most common Diameter of hole that people already have for other hold down tools is 3/4" / 19mm?
Certainly all the pro tools I;ve been looking at seem to cater for that size. (Veritas etc.) 
If so, I recon the best dmtr of steel to use is going to be 18mm. (18.2 doesn't seem to exist as drawn)

Also is the depth of hole likely to vary wildly? I ask this as, after another day of messing about with them, I think I have discovered the optimum angle of foot. Unfortunately this can only be seen to be right (or not) when the holdfast is put through the hole that is its intended destination and its foot sits on a flat piece of wood. 
If it's right, the toe touches first with the tiniest wedge of light visible widening toward the heel. Then when tapped down the gap dissapears and there is the most glorious cramp up - really solid. AND, for reasons beyond my understanding, it's easier to release too. 
If everyones width and depth were the same I could make everyone the perfect tool that works out of the box - but as it is I guess it will be the same as just about any other tool; it may have to be fettled. 
If we could come up with an average of hole depth that would certainly help.


----------



## wizer

Richard, the vast majority will be using 19mm / 3/4inch That's what the gramercy ones are designed also. The only altering factor that any hold fast may come into some problems is the thickness of the bench. Too thick and it won't work. Too thin and the hole will get damaged by the locking action.

You'll be fine with the 18mm stock.


----------



## 9fingers

18.2mm will be the imperial size 23/32" used by the merkins. I'm sure 18mm will be fine for this type of clamp.

Bob


----------



## AndyT

Richard - this is sounding very encouraging!

Here's a suggestion: assume a depth of hole / benchtop thickness of 2" and optimise your design for that. I think that will be a common actual depth.

Anyone whose top is thinner can glue on a block of wood under where they drill each hole, to bring it up to 2".

(If anyone has a super-thick bench they could counter bore the extra thickness at the bottom, using a bigger bit, reducing the depth of the 3/4" part of the hole.)


----------



## jlawrence

I'll take 2 pairs as well - please.


----------



## mickthetree

I'll take 2 pair off you as well if its not too late. I agree with Tom it would be good to get some prototypes tested, but I'm happy to take the word of some forum members.


----------



## wizer

At which postage price bracket would people accept a pass around? If it's around the £4 mark, would that be useful for people. Or do you want to trust the review of a couple of members? For example I could send mine to someone like Alf or Philly?


----------



## BMac

I trust people with more experience than me so, knowing nothing about holdfasts, I think a couple of reviews is ample.

Brendan


----------



## sqwheezle

I'm happy to accept the opinion of a couple of members. My bench top is 4 inches thick but the counterbore idea should work fine.


----------



## Richard T

Right: as I thought, 18mm it is. 
Andy the counter bore idea is brilliant. Not so sure about gluing extra on though... would probably have to be thickening the whole of the holes with wood of decent proportions - I should think that small piece extensions would get popped off quite easily. 
Mick - it's not too late, it's too early. I haven't got the stock in yet.  
Hopefully I can get some pictures up tomorrow.


----------



## AndyT

On the thickening idea - I was imagining a block of (say) 4" x 8" under each hole, screwed and glued up to the top - it all depends on the layout of your bench, and where you want the holes - but hey, we're resourceful people!


----------



## ondablade

Just theorising. The slightly smaller diameter of the stock the new holdfasts will be made from might just improve it's ability to grip in a 3/4in hole in a thick bench. 

Some sort of light texturing of the shank seems (judging by mag articles) to help the grip too. I wonder if there's any cost effective and visually appealing option in this regard that would be worth testing, and if it works could be cost effectively applied/offered as an option? e.g. shot blasting? It'd be better if it didn't make it too abrasive.


----------



## PeterBassett

As I've said, I'd be happy with the opinion of Tom and whoever he can send to Philly, Alf etc.

As for shotblasting, not sure. My worktop is just over 2 inches of mdf. Since it is fairly soft stuff I'd rather the holdfast stick from the sideways wedging action rather than from it being inherently rough.

Thoughts?


----------



## wizer

My gramercy holdfast is smooth and works well in a 2.5" ply mdf sandwich workbench top.


----------



## PeterBassett

Job's a good 'un.


----------



## Richard T

Tom, I wonder if you could do me the favour of mesuring your Gramercy from square to the shaft out to the tip of the toe?
The first two I have made might be slightly longer in reach, the third is shorter and looks more like the Gramery - but that official picture makes it tricky to judge proportion. (Maybe they don't want people copying 'em  )
Btw, there is no discernable difference in efficiancy in the longer or shorter, it would just be nice to know to bear in mind.
... And I'm sure that nothing would be added by mottling the shaft surface in any way other than more quickly worn holes. It's hard to imagine until you acually use one but as soon as you do, and feel it lock up, it is immediately obvious that smooth is good.


----------



## wizer

Richard. My Holdfast is with the blacksmith I found at the moment, I will have to go back down there on Friday to collect it. I'm sure there's someone else here with one who can offer those measurements?


----------



## Richard T

Aha. Thanks Tom. It's not nessasserrcccrry, was just curious.


----------



## simonm

Hello All

De-lurking to get involved in this if I'm not too late.
Interested in two please Richard.

simonm


----------



## Richard T

I got hold of some 18mm bar this morning. 






It's nice to work with something more substantial. Notice the bellows pumping arm is a blur ...





Using the angle template. 





Flattening the foot.





Holdfast holding fast.





Foot detail. 

I'll pack one up and send it for scrutiny tomorrow.


----------



## Mike.C

No pictures Richard

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Paul Chapman

Richard T":2vawlgjv said:


> Holdfast holding fast.



That looks really good, Richard 8)

If you go ahead with making them, I'd like a pair if I'm not too late. 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## SurreyHills

They look really good. I would also be interested in a pair. 

Not sure what you had planned for the next few weeks, but looks like you could be busy!


----------



## TrimTheKing

Looks good, at that price I'll confirm my order for 2 x pairs.

Cheers

Mark


----------



## wizer

Fantastic! Good job Richard


----------



## Tony Spear

Tom, I've not heard much from Merv recently, but can I take it that from what I've just been reading, I can pass a message to him to forget it?


----------



## tja

Well, just got back from the holidays, if it's not too late, i'd be interested in a pair as well.

BTW, in Woodworking magazine, autumn 2005, it is mentioned that the ideal angle between shaft and pad of a holdfast is supposedly about 83 degrees.

Cheers, Take


----------



## Alf

Looks very good, Richard - lovely to see the how-to pics too. I'd probably sign up for a pair, but I'd really like to try my local fella (support your local craftsmen and so forth). 

As to giving an opinion, I'd be delighted, but you want someone who has at least some experience of one or more other versions, I reckon - I've only used the Veritas up to this point, so I wouldn't be the right choice at all.


----------



## PeterBassett

Excellent stuff! I too would like to confirm an order for two pairs dependant on testing.

I may never need four, but you never know.  If the current price of £14 per pair plus postage changes please let me know.

Pete


----------



## houtslager

watched with interest this thread, so now the holdfast is prototyped 
I like it very much and please sir ! can I have 2 please sir :lol: 

karl


----------



## wizer

Tony Spear":3vb29odh said:


> Tom, I've not heard much from Merv recently, but can I take it that from what I've just been reading, I can pass a message to him to forget it?



Hi Tony

Yes please. He contacted me but I've not had a chance to reply yet.


----------



## wizer

Evenin'

I received Richard's holdfast in the post on Tuesday but today has been my first chance to have a play with it.

First impressions are good. It certainly does what it's supposed to. I found that it needs a slightly harder thwack to get it to stick. A rubber mallet worked best. I guess my only niggle with it would be that it can be a bit hard to release. My grammercy is still with my blacksmith, so I couldn't compare the two. But from memory, I think the grammercy has a bigger 'loop' or 'bend' so you can whack it easier on the straight bit. But this is only a small point. Essentially it does exactly what we need it to. It tested it on some 4mm mdf and it held it rock solid. Then some 14mm beech and planed it with no probs and I also tried it on some thicker 60mm stuff. When the timber starts going over about 40mm you need to pound on it more to fix it. Once it bites, it's rock solid.

Here's some pics.





















I did find that it is more likely to dent the wood than the grammercy, but you'd always be using a spacer piece anyway:




















Well Done Richard. This should keep you busy for a month or three... :lol:


----------



## Richard T

So glad to see you got it Tom, I was just about to ask if it had turned up (should've been monday) 

-Most important question - did you try it in a 2" hole? It is tuned to 2". 

As for the bigger loop, I've been experimenting with that too. I think it could benifit from being a slightly bigger, higher loop. I was only put off this by the Gramercy picture which appears to be quite low ... maybe not? 
Also with a higher loop it could hold much thinner stock; and, you're right, be released easier. 
Of course what I could really do with is the Gramercy to have a look at and play with; or at least some accurate arial reconnosence photos. ...


----------



## paulm

Looking good Richard and Tom.

I had wondered if the foot would benefit from a slight upturn at the end, and seeing the denting on the workpiece wonder if it may reduce that by taking away the possibility of the end of the toe digging in to the workpiece ? 

Or maybe it's not the end of the toe digging in that's the problem, possibly with an increased loop and less setting required it may need less pressure on the workpiece while still holding it frimly ?

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Alf

The trouble with the larger loop, or so I gather, is it can then sometimes get in the way in use. fwiw, there's been some useful discussion on the holdfasts on the Old Tools List in the last week, this thread probably being the most interesting. I've linked to Tom Holloway's post in the thread 'cos you might like to follow up the link to see what their holdfasts look like.


----------



## 9fingers

'Scuse my hignorance but as a non hand tool user (apart from emergencies!)
and I don't even have a bench with a vice but ...

I wonder under what circumstances these holdfasts would be used. My thinking is that combinations of vices and dogs cover most workholding needs I can think of.

Curious of Romsey

Bob


----------



## paulm

Gone a bit quiet on this last week or so, any news/plans ?

Bob, it's more toys, since when has _need_ got to do with anything :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Richard T

After a very long week/fortnight in which all things horrible happened at once, I've finally been back in the forge today. 
I spent a good long time getting a template example dead right, then made a few to its spec. by eye and they all work. Other innovations in holdfast production methods will no doubt follow with the best ones, inevitably, somewhere near the end of the run. 
I will charge SWMOM with the task of sussing the best payment, p&p method and pretty soon we'll be up and running.


----------



## paulm

Great news, thanks Richard  

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Plumberpete

I'm also interested in 2 pairs if they're still going!


----------



## Plumberpete

9fingers":eojpvk0z said:


> 'Scuse my hignorance but as a non hand tool user (apart from emergencies!)
> and I don't even have a bench with a vice but ...
> 
> I wonder under what circumstances these holdfasts would be used. My thinking is that combinations of vices and dogs cover most workholding needs I can think of.
> 
> Curious of Romsey
> 
> Bob



I'm by no means an expert on this as I'm fairly new to working with wood but going on what I've read and the little experience that I've acquired I would suggest that holdfasts would be used in a variety of situations including any you might use a G cramp for but have no available space to secure it, ie. in the centre of your workbench. For example, a holdfast would be a more secure way of holding a piece of timber set on its side for, say, morticing where you need the piece supported underneath as well as secured adequately to prevent it from moving/falling over.


----------



## bucephalus

I would be interested in buying a couple of pairs if possible, many thanks.


----------



## Anonymous

whats wrong with the holdfasts from axminster? 20 quid per pair?


----------



## AndyT

mark270981":3or85oxq said:


> whats wrong with the holdfasts from axminster? 20 quid per pair?



Presumably you mean these:







Nothing really as far as I know. But they have a great big threaded bit sticking out the top. The trad design we are getting excited about are quicker and easier - you just whack them with a mallet.

Have a look at some of Roy Underhill's videos to see what I mean.


----------



## Mike.C

mark270981":bkve9ll4 said:


> whats wrong with the holdfasts from axminster? 20 quid per pair?



Mark the set that you are talking about are £23+ a pair and Richard's handmade ones are only £14.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## shim20

i would also be intrested in a pair, how much are they? thanks
ben

edit just seen how much they are


----------



## Alf

Mark, the thread aspect is a bit of a pain, Even with the Veritas - which is really good - tightening up the screw can get tedious quite fast if you're needing to move your set up often as you work the workpiece. And there's something about the simplicity that's appealing - or is that just me?


----------



## Richard T

Another dirty day in the forge and I've now got a reasonable stack to start sending out. 
Have been exploring Jiffy bags :shock: and all in all, I think I need to ask for £1 for packaging although it looks like two pairs will fit in one bag so packaging is the same for 2 or 4. So that's £14 +p&p, or £15 + p. Hope this sounds ok, fair etc .. don't really see how I can do it for less. 
Postage - I'm still open to suggestions/reminders although when I posted the single one to Tom in the regular post it was less than I was expecting. Will get pair and two pairs weighed and priced for comparison.
Payment method - I'd be more than happy with ye olde cheques but if anyone would rather do anything more modern, my secretary will have to deal with it.


----------



## AndyT

That's great news! Nearly there!

Are you going to tell us all your name and address, or send PMs to those who have said they are interested?


----------



## barkwindjammer

Would be good if Dibs could oblige with that Excel spreadsheet thing that he used for the router table insert ? to organise the recipients 8)


----------



## Richard T

I'm now ready to start sending out holdfasts - as long as you are ok with the Royal Mail standard parcel rate which would make it (near as dammit)

- for a pair of holdfasts - £19.50
- for two pairs - £36.00

Please PM to confirm you would like to order, how many and to receive details of where to send your cheque. 

Now to practice packing them properly .. :?


----------



## TrimTheKing

PM sent


----------



## Dibs-h

barkwindjammer":3f34cv70 said:


> Would be good if Dibs could oblige with that Excel spreadsheet thing that he used for the router table insert ? to organise the recipients 8)



Jim - you must have missed the important bit, 



Richard T":3f34cv70 said:


> but if anyone would rather do anything more modern, my secretary will have to deal with it.



:lol::lol:

But if Richard get his secretary to drop me a PM - I'm more that happy to send her a copy and\or the Google Apps one. Or even set it up for her.

HIH

Dibs


----------



## liamscanlan

PM sent

Many thanks 
Liam


----------



## Good Surname or what ?

PM sent


----------



## BMac

PM sent.


----------



## Richard T

After much messing about, I think we have worked out paypal. So use it if you want to but if you (as I) are finding it difficult to keep up with the 20th century, let alone this one, cheques are fine too. 

email address: [email protected]


----------



## sqwheezle

Paypal payment sent


----------



## Richard T

The first 10 pairs will go into the post tomorrow. 
And I bet we're the only ones in the post office with a sack truck - could be embarrasing ..


----------



## tja

Well if you're at the Post office anyway, could you enquire what it would cost to ship one or two pairs to The Netherlands? (If you are willing to do that, of course). I'd be much obliged.

Take


----------



## Richard T

Will do - will let you know.


----------



## PeterBassett

Paypal payment sent! 

Pete


----------



## Richard T

TJA - Twas a bit mad in the post office yesterday but we did manage to find out that one pair would cost £12.60 by land but would be cheaper; £11.10 by airmail. 
Maybe next time we're there when it's less crazy, ie NOT pension day, we will find out how much for two pairs.


----------



## AndyT

Well, I can now report the safe arrival of a lumpy jiffybag containing two very nice holdfasts. I've had a quick go with them. My bench is a far from lovely thing - I built it from salvaged kitchen worktop as a quick job when we moved into the house 20 years ago - but it does have some randomly placed 3/4" holes drilled to fit the plastic dogs from a Workmate.

The holdfasts work perfectly in these, firmly gripping thin or thick wood. They lock up really nice and solid, but release immediately when tapped on the back. Perfect!

Thanks again, Richard, for filling this long felt want so skilfully and pleasantly. I wish you every success in your blacksmithing and your woodwork!


----------



## jt

Mine arrived safely this morning - I've only had ten minutes to have a quick go before work, but they work perfectly. 

The only holes I currently have on my bench are above the skirts at the front, which makes the hole 5 inches deep and they still hold down very securely.

Thanks!


----------



## liamscanlan

Mine arrived this morning too!

Great product - great service!

many thanks
Liam


----------



## Richard T

Thanks for the reports folks. Good to know that (so far) there are no escapees .... 
jt - 5" deep hole? Blimey, I never would have thunk it.


----------



## PeterBassett

I received mine this morning. They look the business but I've yet to drill any dog holes so my first tests will have to wait a while.

Thanks again Richard.

Pete


----------



## Paul Chapman

The postman delivered mine a short while ago  They are beautifully made. I've tried them out and they are so easy to set and release. I can see these are going to get a lot of use  

You've done a cracking job, Richard 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## simonm

Hi Richard

PayPal transfer made.
20100915 12:50.
Thanks.
simonm


----------



## Richard T

Thanks Simon. I'll bag 'em up.


----------



## BMac

Hi Richard,

Mine arrived this morning and I'm delighted. They look great and I am looking forward to using them.

Many thanks for this super work and service,

Brendan.


----------



## Harbo

Richard

Mine arrived too - many thanks.
Still in the Jiffy bag as I have been out all day - but they feel heavy!  

Rod


----------



## BMac

Quick question please.

What size hole do I drill please? I've been through the thread again and found 18mm, 19mm and 3/4". I suppose it's not that critical but I might as well drill the optimum size.

Thanks,
Brendan.


----------



## Richard T

BMac - it's a 3/4" diameter hole - made for 2" deep, but apparently works deeper.


----------



## BMac

That's great, I'll have my bench like honeycomb tomorrow.

Thanks Richard.

Brendan.


----------



## Alf

Why am I seeing no pics...? :-s 

Bearded the local smith in his den this morning - at last - and am slightly doubtful if anything's going to come of it. But we'll see. Gonna cost me more*, dammit, so if it doesn't I don't think I'll be crying too hard. 

*Buy locally _but at a price_ seems to extend to everything.


----------



## Richard T

Oooh, sorry to hear that Alf - but I don't think it's the localness, I think it's the one-offness. 
I can only charge what I'm charging because of the guarenteed sales and the production line I can set up for the duration. Also I spent a lot of time working it out, made a few prototypes etc - so if I had been only commisioned for one pair it would have been a hell of a lot of working time proportionally. 
Still, if he gets the angles wrong, being local, it shouldn't be much of a stretch to poke him with a broom or something til he gets it right. 
Best wishes,
Unbearded


----------



## Alf

Yeah, I allowed for that, butI have a feeling I may have to be poking him with a broom just to get 'em at all... :lol:


----------



## paulm

Arrived today Richard, very effective indeed, good job and many, many thanks for taking this on.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## barkwindjammer

Got mines too Richard-excellent workmanship, 

Father Dougal: Ahh, let's see, I'll have the Hindu curry, steak and chips, and a glass of coke, thanks.

Policeman: Do you know where you are? You're in a police station.

Father Dougal: Oh right. Well, in that case, I'll just have the Satay Chicken


----------



## sqwheezle

Been playing with my holdfasts for a couple of days now and things of beauty and a joy to behold they are too. 

Many, many thanks to Richard and evryone who made this possible.


----------



## jlawrence

Got mine as well. Not even had chance to open the bag yet let alone try them out.


----------



## mickthetree

got mine today. they are superb! quick tap with a mallet and rock solid!!

Many thanks Richard.


----------



## BelgianPhil

I hate to be the one pissing on the parade but mine don't work.
I've hit them with a rubber mallet, a wooden mallet, a hammer and a sledgehammer. No matter what i try, i just can't hold the kids down in their beds.


----------



## mickthetree

Hey Phil

How thick is your bench worktop? show us a photo and maybe we can see whats up.


----------



## BelgianPhil

They work on my workbench. Just not in the children's bedroom


----------



## mickthetree

Haha my mistake. You'll need more than that to stop them :wink:


----------



## Richard T

For anyone who may be wondering where their holdfasts are, we're posting another batch this morning - then I think I'm up to date and that's the end of the queue. 
So anyone who's been thinking I haven't got any left or I'm out of stock - I'm not. I've got potentially 11 pairs left. 

(Gerrumwhilethey're'otthey'reloverly)


----------



## MickCheese

Richard

PM sent, I know I have been slack but hoping you have another pair left.

Mick


----------



## Mikey R

Hi guys, are you planning on doing another batch after this one? I may be needing a pair after payday


----------



## Richard T

Mike - there are now 10 pairs left and depending on how quickly they go (or if they all go) I will have to get some more 18mm stock with my next order. 
However this may be in a wee while as cider making season is upon us, not to mention the much waited for "Thing in the Garage" which is due to take shape this month too.


----------



## tja

Richard T":15th1388 said:


> TJA - Twas a bit mad in the post office yesterday but we did manage to find out that one pair would cost £12.60 by land but would be cheaper; £11.10 by airmail.
> Maybe next time we're there when it's less crazy, ie NOT pension day, we will find out how much for two pairs.



OK, I'd like a pair please. Let me know how much the total is, including shipping to the Netherlands, so I can PayPal it to you. Thanks for taking the trouble at the post office, and on pension day!

Take

Mmm, cider, remember that from my Leicester Uni days, can't get that here, apart from the ubiquitous Strongbow.


----------



## Richard T

Take - One pair would be £26 by air mail. I'll pm you.


----------



## Mikey R

PM sent


----------



## Richard T

ok, next batch sent - another pair ordered - potentially 6 pairs left. 
Many thanks for all the nice things said in PMs. 

I'll say it again ... (ahem, .... ) "Gerrumwhilethey're'otthey'reloverley!"


----------



## Alf

Thank you, Richard - safely arrived not an hour ago. Naturally I felt it my duty to immediately put them to the test:







Work an absolute treat. Alas, two into one hole won't go; where's my brace and 3/4" bit... It's Swiss Cheese time! :wink:


----------



## Richard T

Thanks for that Alf, glad you like 'em. 
Whilst cider pressing, I've had orders for 3 more pears, er, pairs so that leaves 3 pairs still up for grabs.


----------



## shim20

hi richard, do you get my pm asking for some??


----------



## Karl

I borrowed a couple of Trim's yesterday, as I wanted to see how they worked in my bench top - 4 layers of 18mm MDF. They work great, so i've ordered a pair from Richard.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Richard T

Oooops, sorry Shim, I don't know how I missed your pm. I'll reply now.

And that, folks, is it. 

All the stock I bought has been snaffled.

If enough people want more I'll order some more specially - other wise it will have to wait til my next order of other stuff. 
Many thanks for everyones' support, kind words and money. It's been quite a learning curve that has finished up at the correct angle. 

I will get into the forge this week to make the last 7 pairs, so expect a bit of a wait.


----------



## SeanG

I picked mine up from the post office on Saturday, they look great Richard thanks!

Haven't have a opportunity to drill a hole in my bench yet though :-(


----------



## MickCheese

Richard

Works fantastic.

My bench is about 75mm thick and made of recycled softwood. 18mm holes now pepper it and every one just takes a small whack with a dead blow mallet to make it stick and a similar blow on the back to release.

Thanks

Mick


----------



## Richard T

In case anyone is wondering what has become of their holdfasts - with three pairs to go, the other day, the bit of the hammer handle I hold parted company with the bit inside the hammer head. So I've spent the last couple of days making a new handle - Ash this time - the hickory wasn't up to it.
(at last! Some woodwork in this thread.) 
So the last batch will be dispatched very soon. 

Apologies for the extra wait


----------



## tja

My pair arrived this weekend. Very nice! A tap on top and they hold, a tap on the side and they let go. On my bench the flat bit on the end doesn't sit flush on the workpiece but I've got a spacer in between anyway, so no marring of the wood being worked. 

Thanks Richard,

Take


----------



## Richard T

The new hammer handle has done its stuff and the last batch of holdfasts went out this morning. So hopefully they will be arriving early next week. 
Good to hear they got there Take, and that they work for you.

Thanks again all.


----------



## madasamonkey

Hi I'm new to the forum and have just found this post. 

Am I too late to order a pair of holdfasts?

Regards Simon


----------



## Eddie

:ho2 :ho2 Hi,If you are making any more in the Future I would love a Pair,
Many thanks and Happy Christmas,
Eddie


----------



## Shane

Since I somehow missed this the last time, can I be put on the list if more are to be made in the future, thank you 8)


----------



## DTR

Me too please


----------



## Richard T

Blimey! Two holdfast revivals in one day - 

Well, as I just said over in the handtool dpt. I will be ordering some stock soon, and that in future I will have to charge £18 per pair rather than 14 as (I am sure) I won't be making as many all in one go this time. 

Maybe I should add a blurb to the foot of my posts ....

Anyway, never fear, more holdfasts available soon.


----------



## Shane

That price is fine by me 8)


----------



## Helvetica

Hi, new to the forum too, and would love to order a pair of holdfasts. Should I PM you? Many thanks Dougal!



Richard T":30afx94b said:


> Blimey! Two holdfast revivals in one day -
> 
> Well, as I just said over in the handtool dpt. I will be ordering some stock soon, and that in future I will have to charge £18 per pair rather than 14 as (I am sure) I won't be making as many all in one go this time.
> 
> Maybe I should add a blurb to the foot of my posts ....
> 
> Anyway, never fear, more holdfasts available soon.


----------



## urbanarcher

i'd go for a couple too! These things are hard to buy in the UK. let us know when you plan to knock up some more!


----------



## Richard T

Hi UA
I have at least a pair in stock and the wherewithal to knock up many more as requested. 
Pop me a pm.


----------



## dodibeaver

Hello!
Can you find it please how much would be the shipment to Romania for a pair of your holdfasts?
If the price of the shipment it is not too much, I would be interested in buying a pair of holdfasts.

Thank you!


----------



## Richard T

Ok. I'll see what I can do. I have a feeling it may be £11 + something but will have to find out.


----------



## Richard T

Just checked that it cost £11.96 to send a pair to Finland so I would think it would be the same for Romania.


----------



## dodibeaver

I see that some posts are pretty old, from around 2010.
So I would like to ask you if the 14 pounds price it is still valid for a hold fast?
If correct than a pair of hold fasts with shipment would be 28 + ~12 = 40 pounds, please confirm that.
I can pay you by pay pal, it would be that OK for you?
I have used pay pal once, about 8 months ago, for making a payment on eBay in Germany, so I am not very familiar with that.
I should receive some data from you for the money transfer, or what it is the procedure?
Thank you for your patience!

I am not very sure what PM means in the forum "language", but I presume that it is a kind of private conversation on a forum. Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with this feature of the forum, so I would rather continue this, if everything goes fine on the email.
Can you provide an email for me?

Thank you!


----------



## Richard T

Aha. Just to be more confusing  the price per pair is now £18 - (it was £14).

So that's 2 holdfasts £18 + £12 = £30 and if payment by paypal, another £1. 

Hope that's good news. I'll try to email you.


----------



## dodibeaver

I thought that the price was for a piece, not a pair
So if I get it right a pair it would be 18 plus shipment ~12 pounds + 1 pay pal =~31
That is perfect. 

I cannot post my email address because of the following message:

_"Your account does not have permission to post links or domain/page references."_

How can I send you my email in order for you to contact me?
Thank you!


----------



## Richard T

I did send you an email earlier, or at least I thought I did ... I'll try to PM you (private message) 

Now you have three posts that might work now - not sure though.


----------



## condeesteso

sorry very slow in on this, it's a really long thread but - why are the legs on holdfasts so long? If a really thick bench-top is 5", isn't 6" enough. Just wondering as I build my next bench, and plan to use the underspace for storage cupboards maybe. I'm at a loss as to why they stick below the underside so far?


----------



## studders

I 'think' it has to do with the holdfast being under tension, if it was too short it would just wedge itself in place rather than 'spring' tight/loose.
I may of course be barking up completely the wrong lampost.


----------



## condeesteso

Hi Studders - I am puzzled by it - so long as the bottom of the leg (it'll have a tech name, I don't know what, as usual) is below the underside, surely any more metal below that is of no significance? But, they are made that way and have been for ever... bugbear would know this one


----------



## studders

You got me thinking now (rarely a good idea  ) but.... I think I'm wrong... the 'boing' (techy term) comes from the arm above the table, I think; my head hurts now.


----------



## studders

Ah.... hang fire, I think the bulb may have just gone on. It's to accommodate varying thicknesses isn't it? If the iron were short you'd only be able to clamp thin stock.


----------



## Richard T

Douglas .... the holdfasts are forged to grip in a hole of 2 -1/4" depth. I spend quite a lot of time testing each one to fit this criteria as every one's bench is different. They are usually 4 or 5 inches but sometimes are less than 2" MDF .... All I can advise is to add on or take away the depth of that 3/4 inch hole.


----------



## Richard T

... but that's not what you were asking is it ... they are as long as they are because it is about the optimum length at which they still work. Holding six drawer sides on top of a block to chisel out dovetails (a la Frank Klausz) is quite a tall thing and requires about the length of leg I make.
Several people have asked me for much longer ones and I have had to explain that this is about the limit of usefulness.
I've seen lots of benches with a board vertically down the front side with 3/4" holes zig zaged all the way down. I'd love to know if this ever had an official title ..


----------



## SurreyHills

Richard

The board you refer to is known as a deadman vice and it can also be made as a sliding type. See this site for a more detailed description - http://carlswoodworking.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/the-sliding-deadman/


----------



## sqwheezle

Everyone

To see how holdfasts, the deadman and crochet are used you could start by going here http://www.popularwoodworking.com/video ... bench_tour then looking up Chris Schwarz and his book. Fascinating and beautiful stuff.


----------



## Richard T

Thanks for those folks. Deadman vice eh? 

Here's Roy Underhill having the same idea:

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2700/2705.html

and

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2700/2706.html


----------



## condeesteso

Well done Studders... how very slow was I in overlooking the actual stock... good grief!!
Damn, Richard - not so much about raising a Landie, but the Roy U video... First, your land Rover wagon vise / vice - that is why they are called wagon vices I guess. It'll be good, do all we need it to, it's just that I need really shiny things.
Now then. BENCHES. Elsewhere here I've been examining the addiction to hand planes. Well, actually, I have a problem with benches. While the current is on hold pending a tail, the next is half-way designed.
Fell upon some very old oak beams a few weeks ago... so a 6" thick, 6' long, leg vice, and leg tail. Very plain, but dovetailed legs to top. (See Roy U's video Richard pointed out).
Now, that's what I need...


----------



## Richard T

Yup. Ain't Roy Underhill just a piece of fantastic? Watch 'em all.


----------



## condeesteso

Richard - they arrived this morning. brilliant work, seriously. Very nicely finished, good length etc. they do fit my current bench so go straight into service. I may be the last here to pick up on this but a pair shipped for about £25 is truly excellent. The Veritas screw-down will now gather dust. Given the quality of these, we need to see your Landie tail-vice next.
(btw, anyone notice Gramercy speak of their 'patented holdfast'... how you do that then??!)

p.s. the Veritas is slow to use and has little 'grunt'... but it's quite pretty. These holdfasts are very fast to use, and have more than enough grunt to grip very well. A simple, time-proven, winning design... and handsome rather than pretty.


----------



## AndyT

condeesteso":hnw56uev said:


> (btw, anyone notice Gramercy speak of their 'patented holdfast'... how you do that then??!)



The Gramercy patent, IIRC, is for their manufacturing process - cold forming the holdfasts by bending suitable wire - not for the finished object.

Richard does them the proper, old-fashioned, devilish hot way - with Mrs Doyle pumping the bellows!


----------



## Richard T

Yup. Tom went into the mysteries of that patent process pages and pages (and one forum) ago. 

Glad you can use them straight away Douglas. 

Alas, Andy, there is no room for Mrs. Doyle to pump the bellows but she has taken photos of me pumping the bellows - 







Now you've got me thinking ... I could put the handle on the other side ....


----------



## condeesteso

it's a bad thing to turn up to a party so late (this thread) - but at least I got to taste the wine  And is that an open plan forge you have there, Richard?


----------



## Richard T

Hi Douglas - it was a small stilt barn I built about 12 years ago until I built the forge there and built the aisle over it. The forge takes up nearly one half of the aisle and the bellows nearly all the other. 
It is a Great Bellows with the two chambers; I wish I were making it now. It would be a great wip.


----------



## condeesteso

Richard's holdfasts in action. Knocked up a mallet specially to work with them. The standard beech ones were a bit bulky and lacked mass, so this ash version came about. It looks a bit puny, but has lead in it, so weighs in around 1.6Kg. Not that you whack the holdfasts - 2 taps beats one big hit, but some mass helps. Leather faces, whipping twine to hold the edges (done the same as rope whipping the good sailor way).
Turned on Jim's old Coronet, sanded up with Jim's abranet, bog oak wedge from Jim. OK, it's half mine.
These hand forged holdfasts are really outstanding bench accessories (essentials actually). Stuff the variants with screws etc. They only came about because the true blacksmith became a bit scarce. The Gramercy ones are made cold because mass production requires that. Stuff 'em all. These are quite like wheels - so simple, so totally effective.


----------



## SilverDinky

If there are any more holdfasts available I will take 4 please. (sorry, too new here to PM you direct Richard).


----------



## coyot

I would be also interested in 2 of those holdfast, pls.....


----------



## Luke Kelly

Could I add my name to the list of people who would like a pair of holdfasts should more become available please.


----------



## dickster2112

Hope i'm not too late for the party, I would love to get hold of two of these things if there is another batch up for grabs.
Great work on finding a tame blacksmith and for developing these. Why can't we buy decent stuff like this in the uk?
It seems most of the good stuff comes from the us.


----------



## condeesteso

2 things - Dickster, I totally share your views. There seems to be a small undercurrent of newer tool-makers emerging... time will tell. Second thing - Richard: your holdfasts are still the very best bench accessory I own, and will remain so I am sure. Truly brilliant. Many thanks indeed for going to so much trouble to tune them to perfection.


----------



## Richard T

Thanks Douglas - that's high praise indeed considering you have built the world's most pampered bench  
Tuning them has been a growing obsession from the start. I recently stepped a long bit of pine into 2 - 1/2", 3" and 3 - 1/2" and drilled holes in those depths to see if there was a better average angle - ended up settling on the same angle. It might be a bit fierce with a freshly bored hole with nice, crisp edges but as they get compressed, it mellows out to the optimum grip. Any less ends up too shallow. 

Of the recent above requests I have sorted Luke out but the other three all have only one post to their names so pms aren't possible. Although we've been over this before, and my disguised email address is somewhere back in the depths of this thread, I would much rather stay within the spirit of the Group Buy that this is supposed to be. So please join in with the rest of the forum folks (It's hugely worth it) and pm me. :wink:


----------



## dickster2112

Richard T":2dqjzlp8 said:


> .
> 
> Of the recent above requests I have sorted Luke out but the other three all have only one post to their names so pms aren't possible. Although we've been over this before, and my disguised email address is somewhere back in the depths of this thread, I would much rather stay within the spirit of the Group Buy that this is supposed to be. So please join in with the rest of the forum folks (It's hugely worth it) and pm me. :wink:



Hi Richard

Have just joined this forum and have never taken part in any before! How do you pm someone and a) is it legal, b) is it decent.

There seems to be a massive amount of knowledge around in this forum and I must say I feel a bit humbled but shall try to contribute where I can. It restores my faith in humanity that these things thrive in this money grabbing me me me age.
=D>


----------



## Richard T

Hi Dickster,

I'm no expert but I think a mere three posts entitles one to pm (and emoticon I think? (hammer) ) so one more should do you. 
I know it might seem a bit daunting joining in with all these old hands but there's always new stuff to learn for all of us. Just jump right in and wallow in the sawdust.


----------



## dickster2112

Thanks for that Richard. 

This being my third post presumably the emoticons should be magically here
(homer) :ho2 :deer =D> #-o (hammer) :mrgreen: 

It's good to know that I can now pm about the holdfasts, but I still don't know what pm'ing is!

Could you enlighten me please.
ta


----------



## goldeneyedmonkey

Middle button @ the bottom of your post Dickster... 'pm' stands for private maessage.

HTH. _Dan


----------



## Richard T

Hooray Dickster, that's got it. (Thanks Dan)

You have a pm back at you.


----------



## Richard T

Ric, holdfasts on their way.


----------



## dickster2112

Richard
Thanks, can't wait. What size hole did you decide on in the end after your experiments?

Ric


----------



## Richard T

As I said, anything between 2 - 1/2" and 3 - 1/2" (though 2 - 1/4" is ok) Any less and the hole will wear quite quickly, any more and there starts to be not enough grip, though I seem to remember reports that people are using them in 4" holes ok. But it has been surprising to note that the difference between using them in the above depths is so little.


----------



## condeesteso

If it helps I found 65mm worked really well. On a new bench-top (90mm) they didn't grip at all well (but may have improved over time) - I just counterbored from under (a 1" forstner) so the holdfast was working in around 65mm... but it isn't that critical I think. Richard is the expert... go with the above!


----------



## AndyT

At risk of stating the obvious... but Richard and Doug are talking about the depth of the holes (= thickness of bench top). If you were asking about the *diameter* - it's 3/4" = 19mm!


----------



## dedee

My bench top is made of 3 sheets of **18mm MDF** and they work just fine.







I did countersink the top side of the hole which I hoep will prvent wear and tear

All I need now are 39 removable plugs, 1 for each dog hole, to stop various detritus, screws, drills etc falling into the void under the bench. I'd welcome suggestions.

cheers

Andy

edit ** actually it is made from 3 sheets of 18mm MDF on top of 25 mm of veneered chipboard - my memory is not what it used to me!


----------



## dickster2112

AndyT":2l7r28cv said:


> At risk of stating the obvious... but Richard and Doug are talking about the depth of the holes (= thickness of bench top). If you were asking about the *diameter* - it's 3/4" = 19mm!




Thanks Andy, it was the diameter I was after.

Richard - they arrived today, hope to try out this weekend.


Ric


----------



## condeesteso

sorry Ric, I went straight to the more complex issue by mistake. The 3/4 hole is a 'standard' God-send, as there are so many bench clamping accessories available that fit that. If you look above at Andy deedee's bench, I see 2 Veritas dogs and 2 Veritas magicky-sideclamp things... everything goes into your 3/4 hole. Also I think Axminster still do aluminium dogs at a cost-fraction of the Veritas brass version. Basically 3/4 is king.
My wife disagrees.


----------



## baldpate

Hi Richard,

could I please put my name down for a pair of your holdfasts. I've sent you a PM. Thanks

Chris


----------



## condeesteso

I'm pleased to see this fine thread still alive. For many years it was virtually impossible to find traditional forge-made holdfasts at all. Richard's are not only made the right way (in a forge) but they are also the bargain of the century. having seen Auriou launch theirs recently at £70 EACH, I do believe everyone here should own at least one pair of Richard's. I have had mine about a year now and they just WORK.


----------



## AndyT

condeesteso":3fbpsau8 said:


> I'm pleased to see this fine thread still alive. For many years it was virtually impossible to find traditional forge-made holdfasts at all. Richard's are not only made the right way (in a forge) but they are also the bargain of the century. having seen Auriou launch theirs recently at £70 EACH, I do believe everyone here should own at least one pair of Richard's. I have had mine about a year now and they just WORK.



Here here! Well said Douglas. I just hope Richard is still willing to make a batch from time to time for the benefit of those not around the first time.


----------



## Richard T

Hi Chris,

I don't have any ready to go but have lots of stock and am just brimming with potential. 

PM sent btw.


----------



## IanP

I'd be interested in 2 holdfasts at the right price.


----------



## marcros

if you are making a batch Richard, put me down for a pair...


----------



## Richard T

Yes folks, new batch coming up. 

As Usual pop me a PM if you want a pair. .... post's gone up though


----------



## treds1

Maybe interested in a pair, how much are they going to cost?


----------



## Richard T

They are still £18 per pair. With post, packing and Paypal, they used to end up at £24.15 to the UK. Now the postage has gone up and I don't know by how much until I take a pair to the post office. I will keep you informed.


----------



## St.J

Richard,
I'd like a pair.
Sadly I can't PM you since I haven't been here long enough.
How else could I contact you?
Many thanks,
St.John


----------



## davem62

Richard,
please put me down for a pair, pm sent


----------



## marcros

dave, do you want to go halves on he postage- I will come and grab mine from you and have a meet up if you like?


----------



## Richard T

Hi St. John,

You should be able to PM me now - you have three posts.


----------



## davem62

mark thats sounds good ,how did the planer blade sharpening go
dave


----------



## marcros

so so. Les K's bloke i on holiday. It is normally Thursday for Monday or Monday for Thursday. I left them with him, it is too handy there to go elsewhere, and I doubt it would save any time. My Friday afternoon will have to be spend doing something other than planing!


----------



## Vormulac

Richard, I feel like a bit of a heel being a forum old timer but only just getting in on this. I would very much like a pair of these magnificent items with which to transfix my bench.


----------



## studders

condeesteso":1jrjwh30 said:


> I'm pleased to see this fine thread still alive. For many years it was virtually impossible to find traditional forge-made holdfasts at all. Richard's are not only made the right way (in a forge) but they are also the bargain of the century. having seen Auriou launch theirs recently at £70 EACH, I do believe everyone here should own at least one pair of Richard's. I have had mine about a year now and they just WORK.


I second all of that.


----------



## Tom K

I would also like a pair if you have any left. Will P.M for payment instructions (hammer)


----------



## davem62

richard pm sent


----------



## Togalosh

Richard,

A pair for me too please. PM sent.


----------



## WandrinAndy

Please include me for a pair too. I've sent a PM... I think.

Thanks, Andy


----------



## baldpate

Richard,

mine arrived safe and sound this morning. I've had a play, and they work brilliantly on my bench (solid-core fire door 44mm + 12mm MDF) - got a grip like ... well, like iron . Great product at a great price. Thank you so much!

Chris


----------



## Richard T

That's great Chris - I've stopped worrying about whether they will work for so many different benches of different thicknesses, materials etc. - they seem to be more versatile than I envisaged. 

Sorry Andy - you are just too late for this batch. I had 40' of 18mm bar last week. That translates to 14 pairs of holdfasts and I thought I would be safe for ages. Not so. I've sold 14 pairs in a week. :shock: 

I will let you know when it is steel ordering time again.


----------



## hammer n nails

Definitely interested. Possibly want 2 dependent on cost.


----------



## Togalosh

Thanks for the wonderful holdfasts as well as very interesting morning - inspiring stuff !


----------



## davem62

Richard 
thank you for the quick service,very pleased and shall be passing on mark's pair sometime in the next week.Used for the first time yesterday so easy and quick to use,
many thanks dave


----------



## Noggsy

Richard - I'll have a pair off you next time you're ordering please.


----------



## Heath Robinson

I would very much like a pair of these next time you have the time and the steel.


----------



## Arutha

I'll take 2 or 4 next time.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

........and another pair.


----------



## mickthetree

Can you let me know how much for a pair inc postage (think its gone up since I got my first set).

Cheers!


----------



## hammer n nails

I would be interested in 2, maybe depending on price.


----------



## Richard T

Mick - a pair posted to the UK is now £25.05 

Looks like I might need to order some steel soon ...


----------



## undergroundhunter

When your sorting the next batch I will have a pair.

matt


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## MadAlbert

Put me down for a pair, please?!


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## mbartlett99

Err, me too please - 1 pair.


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## stubtoe

And a pair for me too please...


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## alex8_en

Would you be willing to send to Ireland ?


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## condeesteso

Now then Mr T. The new 'evolution' holdfast you very kindly gave me to test:






So that's one tap with the smallish LV mallet top right, a board of ash... and a grinder approx 5Kg on the end.

The evolution bit is here, newer version at the top:





I was always delighted with the originals, but the very slight changes to the new one give even more grip with even less clout.

For anyone with a bench that is used to hold workpieces, these truly are a must.

(And they are still FAR too cheap Richard).

Quick user note - I have found over months the stem benefits from a quick wipe with fine steel wool or similar. They do not corrode but micro surface oxidation (my guess) can reduce grip a bit over time. A few seconds with the 4-0 and they are back to brilliant.


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## mickthetree

Now this is very interesting Douglas.

I built a new workbench recently. 3" thick Ash top. I had some offcuts and tested some holes. I was using some quite wide holes in my previous bench (which were already there). I tried the suggested 19mm hole and the holdfast certainly does grip and well, but there is a very small area of the foot that contacts the workpiece. I found this lead to a small dent in the workpiece. I have some leather to use as a pad for the foot. Yet to add.

I was considering if it would be better to have the foot at a less acute angle so the foot sits much flatter on the workpiece. Is this a new design then from Richard?

I was considering plopping one of mine in my fire to see if I could then bend it a bit to test some angles. Probably with the aid of a large vice. Would this be feasible Richard? Or no hope?


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## condeesteso

Hi Mick - re the popping in the fire... over to Richard. But on both these forms I still use scrap under and it is absolute normal practice to do that. Whilst the new tuning has a slightly flatter tip hence I guess a little more contact area I would never normally use it without scrap wood under... I think most leathers would be too soft as the pressure is immense.
I suspect the near-point contact at the tip is to load up the stem in its hole correctly, but I also suspect that tuning a holdfast so it's bang-on is maybe a black art!

btw - Chris Schwarz has a length of scrap timber on his holdfasts, hole one end that the holdfast goes through, and the other end is always there to sit between the workpiece and the holdfast. Struck me as a bit faffy but that is his solution.


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## mickthetree

The scrap idea sounds ideal. I've seen videos online of people using them directly on stock which I never understood. I'll try this and see how I get on.

Didn't want to go back to bigger holes as the 19mm holes are ideal for other things.


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## Richard T

Hi Alex 8 en,

Yes sure. Quite a few pairs have gone to Ireland. 



Mick: The way I fine tune them is to tap them with a 2lb hammer, taking care to smack square on with the face of the hammer, on the edge (corner) of the anvil. If you can find a good enough block to use as an anvil held in a vice that is up to it, this should work - I trust that most members won't have a 2CWTer ...  

A word of caution though, when striking cold like this always keep a very loose grip on the shaft of the holdfast - or a lot of that force will be transferred into your wrist. 

I'll try to get some photos of the finer points of holdfast tuning and post them up here.

Thanks for posting Douglas - interesting tip with the wire wool. Re-enforces my contention of smooth is best.


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## Argus

.

Are these still available or is this the tail of an old posting?

.


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## WandrinAndy

Are you near to having enough takers for running another production batch yet Richard?


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## Richard T

Hi Andy, Argus, if all goes to plan, will be ordering steel this week.


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## Argus

.

Thanks, Richard. 
If the price is right, as they say, I'll have a pair.
To save trawling through 22 pages and allowing for infaltion, have you a rough idea of cost at this stage?

All best

.


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## Richard T

As far as I remember- it's £25.05 posted to the UK.


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## Argus

Thanks, Richard....I presume that is an individual price?

. 

.


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## Richard T

Nope, that's per pair. - Silly, isn't it?


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## Argus

.

Lovely! 

     

If the book is open, put my name down for a pair, please.


.


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## davthy

I'd also like to order a pair.
Please PM me when you want payment, I'm not allowed to send PMs yet.

/David


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## Richard T

I think I have replied to (PM'd) all the outstanding orders to date. If you have already asked me for a pair and I have not PM'd you please let me know.


But that, Ladies and Gents, I'm afraid must be that. - I think that I must draw a line here. It's been a big and enjoyable learning curve to make holdfasts for the forum and I have been very pleased to offer them at a just over break - even price so that everyone could afford them and join in with the great experiment. 

I think that the 'group buy' has just about run its course and it's time to take them out into the big wide world to see what they can do. 
Thanks to everyone who has been so enthusiastic about them and shared your experiences of using them to help me to get it right.


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## davthy

I'm glad to be on the right side of the closing gate


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## JakeS

Richard T":2pg3gkac said:


> Thanks to everyone who has been so enthusiastic about them and shared your experiences of using them to help me to get it right.



Thanks for taking so much of your time to make them in the first place! The two I have rapidly turned into two of my favourite tools.


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## James C

So does that mean you will no longer be making them or will you be making them at a cost more reasonable for yourself?


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## DTR

JakeS":2xn9tz86 said:


> Thanks for taking so much of your time to make them in the first place! The two I have rapidly turned into two of my favourite tools.



+1

They are truly brilliant and I can't imagine working without them. Thank you Richard


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## Argus

.

Big Thanks due to Richard for sending the holdfasts. 
My pair arrived just now - excellent!

=D> =D> =D> =D> 

.


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## Noggsy

Richard, mine have just arrived and I am absolutely made up with them, thank you. My mate really fancies a set, so please let us know when you have a new price. Thanks again and good luck with them.


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## mickthetree

Mine arrived today and were quickly whisked off to the shed before the misses could finish saying "whats that dear? another tool?"

Love the new design as well, cant wait to put them into action.

Many thanks again Richard!


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## stubtoe

Received my pair today too. Cheers Richard!

Bit of a noob question, but what is the best type of drill bit to drill through my bench (3" beech) - flat, forstner, auger, HSS?

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2


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## baldpate

Richard - I'd like to thank you for having had the chance to acquire this brilliant product at a special price; I'm sure it will be welcomed by a wider market, and I wish you every success. Thanks again - Chris


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## wcndave

James C":2jkynqke said:


> So does that mean you will no longer be making them or will you be making them at a cost more reasonable for yourself?


Id like to get in the action at some point if still possible?


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## Argus

stubtoe":2ef7jzly said:


> Received my pair today too. Cheers Richard!
> 
> Bit of a noob question, but what is the best type of drill bit to drill through my bench (3" beech) - flat, forstner, auger, HSS?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2




Have a look at this guy's no-nonsense approach to getting it straight, otherwise you can use any drill you want. It needs to be 3/4" diameter and I'd recomend an ordinary Jennings type auger, (last picture in the sequence).

.

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=309

.


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## stubtoe

Cheers Argus.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2


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## davthy

Very nice holdfasts indeed! Seems to work fine on my thin (38mm) workbench.
I'm thinking of glueing some leather on the soles for protection, are people doing that?


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## Richard T

Hi David, I think most people just use a thin, scrap piece of wood for protection just as you would with a clamp. I have not tried gluing leather underneath but I have a feeling it wouldn't last too long with that sudden 'sit-down' - though I could be proved wrong ...


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## Richard T

JamesC - I will still be making them and maybe for a company that has approached me about carrying them. When we have sorted out that price, I will not want to under cut them so .... we'll just have to wait and see what happens on price. 

Stubtoe - hope your holes were a success?  

wcndave - sorry, the last batch was the last of of the forum buy, but as I said above, when I have the market price worked out they will be available again.


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## James C

Thanks for the info Richard. I think its great that you've got this opportunity and would be happy to pay for what is actually a premium artisan made item.

As people before have stated its about time you got what you deserve for them.


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## Tom K

So...if Mrs Doyle were to say gwon ah ye will ye will ye will. As she does how long would you holdfast (hammer)


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## JakeS

Richard T":2pnsco8g said:


> I think most people just use a thin, scrap piece of wood for protection just as you would with a clamp.



Exactly this for me. I did try masking-taping a bit on originally but it soon worked its way off again - not sure whether it was the mallet-tapping or the weakness of masking tape that did it, though.


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## stubtoe

Just finished drilling the holes in my bench for the holdfasts.

Results here:

http://thickastwoshortplanks.blogspot.co.uk/

The 19 mm auger bit appears to have done the trick - thanks Richard T!!


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## xy mosian

Richard T":3a15jzes said:


> JamesC - I will still be making them and maybe for a company that has approached me about carrying them. When we have sorted out that price, I will not want to under cut them so .... we'll just have to wait and see what happens on price. .



Richard, I think you deserve a great big pat on the back. You have learnt how to reproduce an older piece of workshop equipment and refined the design until it works very well. This has aroused the interest of a, presumably, commercial retailer. Well done indeed. =D> =D> 

xy


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## woodbloke

Richard T":2pr7dghb said:


> JamesC - I will still be making them and maybe for a company that has approached me about carrying them. When we have sorted out that price, I will not want to under cut them so .... we'll just have to wait and see what happens on price.


I suspect I know who that'll be...but I'll say nowt :wink: :mrgreen: - Rob


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## Naylom

RichardT : another interested party here. Would be keen to hear more more when you have details. Mark


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## Arutha

I also got a pair of holdfasts in this last batch. I'm very happy with them. They work much better than my old, factory made ones. 
Thanks!


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## condeesteso

found 'em!
http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/sho ... cts_id=266


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## AndyT

condeesteso":hv6fkk9y said:


> found 'em!
> http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/sho ... cts_id=266



and they seem to be in some excellent company! I hope business works well for all concerned. (I see that worldwide shipping is available, so I expect that stateside hand tool enthusiasts will be placing orders too.)


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## PeterBassett

Blimey, their blog is a pretty good read. Richard knocks out some pretty workbenches...


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## condeesteso

One of my favourites Peter. I am fairly sure he is making the best benches in the World... but you need deep pockets for the big custom ones  
I'll be watching the store develop as he has a firm grip on that certain Englishness... I would question the point of doing Veritas as it is well covered elsewhere already.
So who's buying the Aurious at £140 a pair I wonder. Tomes for me, every time. {Must feel odd Richard, seeing your name as a brand :wink: )


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## James C

£45 a pair is pretty damn good. Glad they are available again.


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## Noggsy

I haven't read it anywhere else on the forum, so I'm putting it here, in case others have also missed the sad news. I've just read on The English Woodworker blog, that Richard Tomes has passed away. My deepest sympathies to his family and friends. I only knew him through this forum, but always enjoyed what he had to say and I am glad to say that I own a pair of his superb holdfasts, which I use on a daily basis. Rest in peace Richard. 

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=2353

Edited

There is a condolences thread in General Chat (where I rarely go). I'll leave this post in case others are in the same boat.


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