# Do I need to do this glue-up again?



## Baball

Hello. I am still relatively new to woodworking and learning a lot on each project and from this forum.

For my third project I have started building a play kitchen for my kids for Christmas. I glued up this panel for the worktop from two oak boards (800mm x 210mm) in my garage workshop on Friday, using Titebond 3 and aligned with biscuits. I came back the next day and found it had dried this chalky white on the surface. The temperature in the garage was around 5 degrees when I found this and the lower limit for Titebond 3 is 45 fahrenheit which is around 7 celsius. I don't know what the temperature was on the day of the glue up, but before using it I had kept the glue in the house so that it wasn't too cold.

There are sections that have dried the yellowy/brown colour I would have expected, at the end grain and where the clamps and cauls were, but the rest is white like this. Do I need to cut down that glue line and do it again?

The boards aren't aligned at the ends as I will trim it to size later.

Thanks for any advice!


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## TheTiddles

That was too cold for it, however it may be good enough if it was just the surface smears that got too cold.

‘Tis the season… to glue up indoors


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## Adam W.

Does it feel like it's glued up ok ?


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## Baball

TheTiddles said:


> That was too cold for it, however it may be good enough if it was just the surface smears that got too cold.
> 
> ‘Tis the season… to glue up indoors


Thanks TheTiddles. I was hoping the same, that it was just those messy smears that were affected. This is the first project I've done at this time of year and I didn't even think about the cold affecting the drying process until I saw this 

I think I will have to start doing the glue ups last thing in the day so they can set over night, and then be moved out of the house in the morning. We've not really got anywhere I can leave stuff clamped up without the little ones prodding or falling over it!


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## Baball

Adam W. said:


> Does it feel like it's glued up ok ?


Hi Adam,

I tentatively tried to flex the panel at the centre to see if it had any strength at all and it seemed solid. I then supported the two long edges and placed a 10kg kettle bell on the joint and it didn't fail but I only left it there for a few minutes. I'm not expecting it to get any real stress in its intended use, so I guess the only thing that might cause an issue is any movement once it is in the house and acclimatises?


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## grumpycorn

For small glue ups, you can use a small electric blanket. Cheap to run overnight and will make sure it stays nice and toasty overnight without breaking the bank.


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## Ttrees

If you can suspend your timber over an oil rad, and use a heavy blanket or two,
you shouldn't have any trouble.
Probably could get 25c in a tent easily enough with a 2000w rad, say within 45mins...
which might be a too excessive depending on whether there is any draft in the room or not.
A 1500w rad might need another blanket for a better sealed tent, and a little more time to suck the cold out, should it be heavy stock with thermal mass.
I find a big difference between the cheapie 2000w rad and the known brand name "safer" one.

Even if the room is warm, a foot off the floor it might not be the case.
I had that happen where the glue didn't set, and was chalky on the outside and the joint pulled apart
like silicone, even though I wasn't six feet away from an admittedly not so great stove.


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## Baball

grumpycorn said:


> For small glue ups, you can use a small electric blanket. Cheap to run overnight and will make sure it stays nice and toasty overnight without breaking the bank.


Great idea, thanks grumpycorn! Would you wrap the job in the blanket or just lay it on the top of the blanket?


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## Baball

Ttrees said:


> If you can suspend your timber over an oil rad, and use a heavy blanket or two,
> you shouldn't have any trouble.
> Probably could get 25c in a tent easily enough with a 2000w rad, say within 45mins...
> which might be a too excessive depending on whether there is any draft in the room or not.
> A 1500w rad might need another blanket for a better sealed tent, and a little more time to suck the cold out, should it be heavy stock with thermal mass.
> I find a big difference between the cheapie 2000w rad and the known brand name "safer" one.
> 
> Even if the room is warm, a foot off the floor it might not be the case.
> I had that happen where the glue didn't set, and was chalky on the outside and the joint pulled apart
> like silicone, even though I wasn't six feet away from an admittedly not so great stove.
> View attachment 123518


Thanks Ttrees. Working in the garage for the last few evenings has convinced me I should invest in even some simple heating for me and the glue. Is there a brand of oil rad that is good to look for?


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## Ttrees

I'm not sure there's much to go wrong if buying a new cheap 2000w oil rad.
The metal doesn't seem thinner on the cheap house one and the shed one shown, although the wheels are about the only thing stand out noticeable to me, whether that's an issue or not to some.
I wouldn't mind carpy wheels, as it might make me seek out better more suitable bigger wheels for it.

Matthias Wandel (woodgears) recently made a video about them and it seems you might need replace the thermostat in them eventually, likely the case with all of them.
The one shown is an old larger Dimplex 1500w and not so great for heating anything up other than a tent.
I had mine on accidentally for a whole day and a half, and the un-insulated shed is now a toasty 7/8 degrees, compared to maybe 3 degrees.
Might have noticed the other one if it were the case. 

Tom


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## thetyreman

in these temperatures I use a heat gun on the join line before clamping together, makes a big difference, the joint looks fine to me, a card scraper will clean up the glue.


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## Baball

thetyreman said:


> in these temperatures I use a heat gun on the join line before clamping together, makes a big difference, the joint looks fine to me, a card scraper will clean up the glue.



Thanks tyreman. That is a good solution. I'm hoping that because the glue was at room temperature that it set up enough inside the joint.

I don't have card scrapers yet, and they probably would have helped, it took about an hour of sanding with a ROS to get that dried glue off! I was in a bit of a rush doing the glue up and didn't wipe it up as well as I should have done.

There is a set of 4 Veritas card scrapers on Axminster for about £19, is that a good option?


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## grumpycorn

Baball said:


> Great idea, thanks grumpycorn! Would you wrap the job in the blanket or just lay it on the top of the blanket?



I just cover it in the electric blanket then put an old blanket on top to retain the heat a bit. I've only tried it a couple of times so far but it seems to have worked OK.


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## Doug71

PU glue works at lower temperatures so is a good choice this time of year.


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## thetyreman

Baball said:


> There is a set of 4 Veritas card scrapers on Axminster for about £19, is that a good option?



yes, the one I use the most is a 0.6mm thick one, I like the thin ones more, mine is a cheap bacho one, I would hope the veritas would be better


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## LBCarpentry

Just get a little 2k workshop fan heater and get it toasty in there before gluing up. I have a Stanley one that I use in my shed. Sure that glue up will be fine.
Remember to plug the heater into a timer switch - don’t leave it running all night long.

And like others have said - get some 10minute PU glue for this time of the year. 5 degrees is easily manageablefor glue ups. It’s the -1 temps that are a challenge!


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## Baball

Doug71 said:


> PU glue works at lower temperatures so is a good choice this time of year.


Thanks Doug, that's useful to know. I'll look to add some to the glue collection. Titebond's PU glue seems to need above 10 degrees though so any pointers on a low-temp brand would be welcomed.


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## Baball

thetyreman said:


> yes, the one I use the most is a 0.6mm thick one, I like the thin ones more, mine is a cheap bacho one, I would hope the veritas would be better



Tempted by the Bahco now, about £9 for one and I could get it tomorrow. Otherwise the Veritas ones will wait for the next Axminster order.

After much sanding it now looks like this. Quite pleased with it, but there are a few bits of white glue in the grain that will be near impossible to sand out, perhaps a job for the scraper. The band of lighter wood is original in the boards, not from my interventions!


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## Baball

LBCarpentry said:


> Just get a little 2k workshop fan heater and get it toasty in there before gluing up. I have a Stanley one that I use in my shed. Sure that glue up will be fine.
> Remember to plug the heater into a timer switch - don’t leave it running all night long.
> 
> And like others have said - get some 10minute PU glue for this time of the year. 5 degrees is easily manageablefor glue ups. It’s the -1 temps that are a challenge!



Thanks LB! I spent a few hours in the garage today and a heater is definitely on the shopping list!


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## Baball

Thank you everyone for your advice; it sounds like I might be ok with this as it is.


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## Doug71

Baball said:


> Thanks Doug, that's useful to know. I'll look to add some to the glue collection. Titebond's PU glue seems to need above 10 degrees though so any pointers on a low-temp brand would be welcomed.



I tend to use the Everbuild Lumberjack range, just looked and they recommend a minimum of 5 degrees.


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## Adam W.

Baball said:


> Hi Adam,
> 
> I tentatively tried to flex the panel at the centre to see if it had any strength at all and it seemed solid. I then supported the two long edges and placed a 10kg kettle bell on the joint and it didn't fail but I only left it there for a few minutes. I'm not expecting it to get any real stress in its intended use, so I guess the only thing that might cause an issue is any movement once it is in the house and acclimatises?


I'd say you were OK and that you should just move on and keep building with confidence.


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## grumpycorn

When it happened to me, it was pretty obvious straight away the glue up had failed. You’d know by now!


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## Baball

Phew, thanks all. It's going to be close getting this complete in time anyway, so not having to re-do anything is a relief!


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## sometimewoodworker

Baball said:


> There is a set of 4 Veritas card scrapers on Axminster for about £19, is that a good option?


They are great (card scrapers) even better if you use the Card scraper holder your thumbs will thank you and you can always get as much flex as you want


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## Baball

I think I've had my first hard lesson in wood movement. I haven't been able to do anything on this project for a week or so, I left the panel flat on my bench (a sheet of MRMDF levelled on top of an old table) in the garage, and found it has bowed like this. I've brought it into the house as that is where it will live anyway, hoping it might move back, but I'm doubtful.

Is there anything I can do to salvage this? Even if I had hand planes or a planer, I would lose too much thickness flattening it out, I think.


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## Adam W.

Breadboard ends might do the trick, but you'll need to clamp it flat whilst you cut the rebates.


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## Baball

Adam W. said:


> Breadboard ends might do the trick, but you'll need to clamp it flat whilst you cut the rebates.


That's a great idea, thanks.

I do wonder if trying to clamp it straight will stress the possibly questionable glue joint. I guess it either will or it won't. If it doesn't; great, if it does; I'll just glue it up again (in the warm this time).

I fear this hiccup has pushed delivery of this project past Christmas now though 

Heads off to learn how to do breadboard ends...


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## Adam W.

Or you could do the tried and tested method of screwing it flat to a batten underneath at both ends, like a chest lid.


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## Sgian Dubh

Baball said:


> I think I've had my first hard lesson in wood movement. I haven't been able to do anything on this project for a week or so, I left the panel flat on my bench


Try wiping a damp cloth on the concave face. Repeat as necessary for a few hours(overnight?) and see what happens. If the cup is stubborn you could even leave a folded up damp cloth (wood chips) or some other moisture retaining material on the concave face for a few hours/overnight. You have to approach trying to take out cupping fairly cautiously. You can over compensate, and sometimes, even if you get the panel to straighten out, the fix is only temporary, and it will cup again.

I'm guessing the lesson you've learned is that you need to let air circulate all around a panel to reduce the likelihood of warping, including cupping. So, in future, sticker up panels and boards to allow the necessary air circulation. Slainte.


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## Baball

Sgian Dubh said:


> Try wiping a damp cloth on the concave face. Repeat as necessary for a few hours(overnight?) and see what happens. If the cup is stubborn you could even leave a folded up damp cloth (wood chips) or some other moisture retaining material on the concave face for a few hours/overnight. You have to approach trying to take out cupping fairly cautiously. You can over compensate, and sometimes, even if you get the panel to straighten out, the fix is only temporary, and it will cup again.
> 
> I'm guessing the lesson you've learned is that you need to let air circulate all around a panel to reduce the likelihood of warping, including cupping. So, in future, sticker up panels and boards to allow the necessary air circulation. Slainte.



Thanks Slainte, I'll give that a try first. Just so I'm doing this right: it was the concave face that was down on the bench, does that still fit with making that side damp?

And thank you for the information about the air circulation. I hadn't yet considered what had caused it and probably wouldn't have worked it out.


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## sometimewoodworker

Baball said:


> And thank you for the information about the air circulation. I hadn't yet considered what had caused it and probably wouldn't have worked it out.


you currently have a moisture gradient across the board because the face that was in contact with the MDF didn’t get as much moisture as the open face. The moisture has allowed/caused the fibres in one face to swell slightly, your hope is that you may be able to add moisture to the other face to counter this. It might work, it might not. If it doesn’t then ripping down the centre and glueing it back together with one board flipped is the common fix.


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## Baball

sometimewoodworker said:


> you currently have a moisture gradient across the board because the face that was in contact with the MDF didn’t get as much moisture as the open face. The moisture has allowed/caused the fibres in one face to swell slightly, your hope is that you may be able to add moisture to the other face to counter this. It might work, it might not. If it doesn’t then ripping down the centre and glueing it back together with one board flipped is the common fix.



Thank you sometimewoodworker! I was starting to think that the exposed faced would have _dried _more but taking on moisture makes so much more sense! My experience so far has mostly been with birch plywood, MDF, and redwood but I would really like to be able to use this oak in this project. Off to give the panel a wipe...


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## Baball

And the offcut from the oak is now on sticks


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## sometimewoodworker

Baball said:


> Thank you sometimewoodworker! I was starting to think that the exposed faced would have _dried _more but taking on moisture makes so much more sense! My experience so far has mostly been with birch plywood, MDF, and redwood but I would really like to be able to use this oak in this project. Off to give the panel a wipe...


It’s impossible to predict if an exposed board face will gain or loose moisture and move without quite a bit more information than was given, things like the ambient humidity (likely to be high in the [sarcasm] hot sunny [/sarcasm] winter months in the UK, the air movement across the board, the dew point (this could have allowed even more water on the surface), the starting moisture content of the wood, if there is stress in the wood etc.

But since the exposed face has increased its dimensions (the bow proves this though not exactly why) added moisture to the cupped side may correct this. Also a slight dryer airflow across the bowed side while keeping the cupped side slightly damp may help.


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## Sgian Dubh

Baball said:


> ... Just so I'm doing this right: it was the concave face that was down on the bench, does that still fit with making that side damp?


Essentially, yes. The alternative is to induce drying of the fibres on the convex surface to cause cross grain shrinkage leading to straightening. It's often easier to add moisture to the concave face, e.g., wipe with a damp cloth, or similar.

sometimewoodworker has basically explained the mechanism or cause of the cupping, i.e., one face of the panel shielded from the room's (workshop's) relative humidity (RH) through lying directly on a flat surface; the other face was exposed to the atmospheric RH and, in this case absorbing moisture causing the upper surface to expand leading to cupping with, in this case, the convex side uppermost. The result would have been the opposite of what you got if the upper surface of the panel had been exposed to RH conditions (drying conditions) that caused cross grain shrinkage of the panel's upper surface rather than expansion. Slainte.


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## Baball

Thank you both for the detailed information; I have learnt a lot.

Over two or three days I wiped the panel several times on the concave surface, but it mostly held its form. Thinking that I might also be able to use the cause as the cure, I moved it back to the garage and placed it the other way up on the bench, checking on it every 12 hours or so. It has now mostly straightened out so I have put it on sticks in the hope it doesn't now cup in the other direction!


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## sometimewoodworker

Baball said:


> Thank you both for the detailed information; I have learnt a lot.
> 
> Over two or three days I wiped the panel several times on the concave surface, but it mostly held its form. Thinking that I might also be able to use the cause as the cure, I moved it back to the garage and placed it the other way up on the bench, checking on it every 12 hours or so. It has now mostly straightened out so I have put it on sticks in the hope it doesn't now cup in the other direction!


Just putting it with sticks isn’t going to be enough. You need, quite urgently, to get another board or several on sticks on top of the board you are trying to get the bow out of and get some significant weight on to it then get air movement through the stack so as to dry it all out, if you don’t do that when you bring it inside into a less humid environment it’s just going to cup again


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## Baball

sometimewoodworker said:


> Just putting it with sticks isn’t going to be enough. You need, quite urgently, to get another board or several on sticks on top of the board you are trying to get the bow out of and get some significant weight on to it then get air movement through the stack so as to dry it all out, if you don’t do that when you bring it inside into a less humid environment it’s just going to cup again


Argh! Understood. I have some kettle bells in the garage, I can use those to add weight to the board.

Seeing the discussion in another thread about unheated workshops and the potential for an oak door to move when fitted, I was thinking once it is straightened out, I should bring it in and leave it inside, stored somewhere on its end to allow air to most of the surfaces, taking it back out to the garage only for working on that particular part?


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## sometimewoodworker

Baball said:


> Argh! Understood. I have some kettle bells in the garage, I can use those to add weight to the board.
> 
> Seeing the discussion in another thread about unheated workshops and the potential for an oak door to move when fitted, I was thinking once it is straightened out, I should bring it in and leave it inside, stored somewhere on its end to allow air to most of the surfaces, taking it back out to the garage only for working on that particular part?


Just putting weight on the board itself is probably a poor choice, get another board (anything will do from MDF throgh plywood to any species that you have available ) on stickers onto your project board then any weights of anything onto that board. I personally would have an inexpensive fan blowing on the stack for a few days.

You will find that a moisture meter will help a lot, even the cheapest ones will give a good guide to the difference in surface moisture between boards in your garage and in the house, they won’t be accurate as to the exact level but then you don’t need that, you just need to find out the difference and for that they are excellent.

As to taking wood out to work on it and bringing it in, that’s a good choice. Also once joints are cut fitting them together asap even if you aren’t gluing them is a good idea.


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## Adam W.

@Baball A permanent mechanical solution is what's needed to keep it flat, by either screwing it down permanently to something stiff or fitting breadboard ends.

Otherwise you'll just be moving it backwards and forwards to the garage and wiping it with a damp rag for the rest of your days.

Plus, it's nearly time to deliver that Christmas gift.


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## Baball

sometimewoodworker said:


> Just putting weight on the board itself is probably a poor choice, get another board (anything will do from MDF throgh plywood to any species that you have available ) on stickers onto your project board then any weights of anything onto that board. I personally would have an inexpensive fan blowing on the stack for a few days.
> 
> You will find that a moisture meter will help a lot, even the cheapest ones will give a good guide to the difference in surface moisture between boards in your garage and in the house, they won’t be accurate as to the exact level but then you don’t need that, you just need to find out the difference and for that they are excellent.
> 
> As to taking wood out to work on it and bringing it in, that’s a good choice. Also once joints are cut fitting them together asap even if you aren’t gluing them is a good idea.



Is this ok? The only thing I had that is about the same size is my router table. It's got 30kg of weights on it.





I'll take a look at the moisture meters, thanks for the tip.


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## Baball

Adam W. said:


> @Baball A permanent mechanical solution is what's needed to keep it flat, by either screwing it down permanently to something stiff or fitting breadboard ends.
> 
> Otherwise you'll just be moving it backwards and forwards to the garage and wiping it with a damp rag for the rest of your days.
> 
> Plus, it's nearly time to deliver that Christmas gift.



Thanks Adam. Unfortunately another part of the project hasn't gone as well as I'd like so it will be a few weeks before I get to install this panel in its final position. It means this will no longer be a Christmas present, which actually works out better as it needs to go where the Christmas tree currently is!


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## sometimewoodworker

Baball said:


> Is this ok? The only thing I had that is about the same size is my router table. It's got 30kg of weights on it.
> 
> View attachment 124726
> 
> 
> I'll take a look at the moisture meters, thanks for the tip.


That fine, though I would add a 3rd set of stickers in the middle, and just pile on top any tools or other stuff not in use at the moment, if that is all the spare stuff you have in your garage I’m not sure that you qualify as a genuine diy man


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## Baball

So, an update in case it might be useful.

I didn't get to leave the panel in that setup for too long; it turned out I had agreed my workbench, a former dining table, could be used at Christmas so had to take everything apart. Having nowhere else to leave the panel I moved it inside where it has been leaning against a wall so as to allow air to both sides. The overall result? Success! The panel is now flat again, and hopefully well acclimatised, so fingers crossed any movement will be kept to a minimum. Although, I'm fully expecting to learn some more lessons from this piece.

Thank you to everyone for the advice.


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## Baball

thetyreman said:


> yes, the one I use the most is a 0.6mm thick one, I like the thin ones more, mine is a cheap bacho one, I would hope the veritas would be better



I got a Bahco one in the end so that I could give it a go. I've been really pleased with it and it has certainly made me want to continue investing in hand tooling, it is nice to work without needing ear defenders. It came sharp enough for me but then I have nothing to compare it to, so learning to sharpen is now on the list of jobs


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## Baball

sometimewoodworker said:


> They are great (card scrapers) even better if you use the Card scraper holder your thumbs will thank you and you can always get as much flex as you want



Getting a few more and the holder is now on the list


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## Baball

Many many months late, the panel has now made its way into the project: Post a photo of the last thing you made

After bringing it indoors it didn't seem to need any special treatment and has stayed flat. Fingers crossed it remains that way.


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## WideningGyre

If the glue chalked off, I'd do it over. Takes less than five minutes to rip it down the glue line, tidy with a plane, and reglue it.


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