# "Basic Box Making" by Doug Stowe. Shocker!



## Jacob

Random purchase.
Amazing book - just flipping through the pages and almost every one shows a dangerous use of table saw. I checked to see if he was showing how _not_ to do it, but no!

Could have value as a collection of examples of techniques to avoid at all costs?


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## AndyT

Is it American?

I think there must be an amendment to the constitution about the right to bare blades...


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## Glynne

His Instagram feed isn't much better.


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## ED65

I have a PDF copy of this and the dreadful table saw safety practice never registered the previous times I flicked through it because I tend to gloss over the power tool sections.

But looking at it afresh it is shocking how bad it is. Just a taster, but I lost count of the number of photos where he's cutting thin and/or narrow stock on the table saw and his fingers are mere centimetres from the blade, with of course no guard in sight.

And there's no riving knife. He does have splitters incorporated into some of his user-made inserts so he's not completely unaware of them as a thing!


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## Jacob

TBH I've done most of this things myself, when I didn't know any better. Managed to avoid accidents more luck than judgement.
But the good news is that safe techniques actually facilitate and increase your control over the work; you can apply push sticks right up close to the blades giving tight control but with near zero risk of accidental risk to anything but the push stick (and sometimes the workpiece!). Push sticks are cheap.
Avoid so called "grippers" these tend to be fundamentally badly designed. Doug Stowe uses them so they must be bad.


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## andersonec

Standard practice in the USA.


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## CStanford

Power tools and small box parts are a bad combination altogether.


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## Iestynd

Wow - how he has his fingers still is beyond me! :evil:


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## Adamengle

Thanks for this, it gave me a chuckle haha.


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## JWLeaper

Not withstanding the comment above about power tools and small boxes being a bad combination my next purchase is going to be a small table saw (dw745 - cost and size). Where does one turn to learn how to use it safely and still retain the hope of becoming a concert pianist one day. Yes there's a shed full of videos on t'web but who is the turn to guy? 

Sorry for the hijack.


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## transatlantic

JWLeaper":1mv0y7aq said:


> Not withstanding the comment above about power tools and small boxes being a bad combination my next purchase is going to be a small table saw (dw745 - cost and size). Where does one turn to learn how to use it safely and still retain the hope of becoming a concert pianist one day. Yes there's a shed full of videos on t'web but who is the turn to guy?
> 
> Sorry for the hijack.



I subscribe to hundreds or channels, and I really don't think I've seen a video I have been happy with. Many of the "Table Saw Safety" videos don't even have a splitter!!! you just have to watch a million of them, and take the best bits from each of them. If anything doesn't make seense, don't hesitate to ask here before attempting.

My advice (common mistakes):

- Before you do anything, check your fence for parallel
- NEVER take off the splitter. If your jig requires it, your jig needs modifying
- Never use your fence as a length stop (clamp a piece of wood before the blade and use that)
- Never try to cut something that is wider than it is longer
- Never try to cut something freehand (without fence or mitre gauge)
- Always adjust your blade to be a little above the depth of the piece (adivce on just how much varies), so as to expose as little as possible
- Outfeed support is a must. You want to pass the work right past the blade 
- Always use push sticks so you're not leaning or passing your hand over the blade
- If something doesn't feel right. Stop. Assess the situation


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## custard

JWLeaper":32l2hjox said:


> my next purchase is going to be a small table saw (dw745 - cost and size). Where does one turn to learn how to use it safely.



Here's the thing that never seems to get mentioned on these discussions. Operating a table saw is a _skill_, in fact it's every bit as skilful as cutting dovetails or laying a sunburst veneer. So what's reasonably safe for one person may not be remotely safe for someone else. 

Personally I wouldn't stand behind a newbie when they're ripping even if they've got every safety device imaginable in place!

In fact there's a weird situation developing at the moment. I'm a full time cabinet maker with a large sliding table saw plus a decent sized bandsaw. Pretty much standard kit amongst professional makers. The odd thing is that I rarely do any ripping on the saw these days, and it's exactly the same for other furniture makers I talk to. Consequently we're losing the knack. But visit a small joinery workshop or a boat yard and they'll have a traditional table saw, and they'll be ripping timber all day long. Their saw skill levels are way higher than mine and consequently I'd trust them to safely execute cuts that would have me miring my trousers with dread.

But that's a subtlety that simply gets ignored on this forum, there's always loads of sucking of teeth and shaking of heads whenever safety gets raised, but the hard fact is that real world safety is quite an elastic concept.


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## D_W

custard":iwfpyh5s said:


> JWLeaper":iwfpyh5s said:
> 
> 
> 
> my next purchase is going to be a small table saw (dw745 - cost and size). Where does one turn to learn how to use it safely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing that never seems to get mentioned on these discussions. Operating a table saw is a _skill_, in fact it's every bit as skilful as cutting dovetails or laying a sunburst veneer. So what's reasonably safe for one person may not be remotely safe for someone else.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't stand behind a newbie when they're ripping even if they've got every safety device imaginable in place!
> 
> In fact there's a weird situation developing at the moment. I'm a full time cabinet maker with a large sliding table saw plus a decent sized bandsaw. Pretty much standard kit amongst professional makers. The odd thing is that I rarely do any ripping on the saw these days, and it's exactly the same for other furniture makers I talk to. Consequently we're losing the knack. But visit a small joinery workshop or a boat yard and they'll have a traditional table saw, and they'll be ripping timber all day long. Their saw skill levels are way higher than mine and consequently I'd trust them to safely execute cuts that would have me miring my trousers with dread.
> 
> But that's a subtlety that simply gets ignored on this forum, there's always loads of sucking of teeth and shaking of heads whenever safety gets raised, but the hard fact is that real world safety is quite an elastic concept.
Click to expand...


One of my first table saw experiences involved catching a kickback off of a 5 horsepower powermatic 66. Thankfully, it did no damage to me other than make a giant beltline bruise. I generally don't use a TS without at least a splitter now, but wouldn't say I have a great fear of them. 

I would agree 100% that I would never stand anywhere in the radius of potential fire when a newbie was on a TS. 

Most shops over here are more safe than the videos you guys are referring to. The guy who got me into woodworking must've just watched too much Norm. His saving grace is that he really doesn't work often. Some of the folks who have been around longer start to confuse experience for complete safety - it's still a numbers game and I use my fingers in my day job and like to play guitar. The seldom times I use a table saw, I take enough precaution to preserve them. 

Jobsite use here is probably a lot less safe, though. 

I don't personally know anyone missing digits from a table saw or saw of any kind, but i've met two people who jointed off part of a finger tip. 

Farming on the other hand, and woodsmen - I know *many* missing fingers or with very long scars. they are aging and from an era of no PPE and few guards on their machinery.


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## D_W

(I should add that the fellow who got me into woodworking and encouraged me to use a 5 horsepower table saw - his saw - without guards or anything...that fellow was an Englishman who moved to the United States. 

I always thought his saw required a whole lot of feed pressure, which just made it even more dangerous. A couple of years later, we realized that the blade that he was using had hook set for a radial arm saw - it was an anti-climb blade, so the distracting enormous amount of feed pressure that it required was errant. We changed the blade on this fellow's table to a 40 tooth combination blade for a TS and it was much safer in my opinion because you could focus less on feed pressure and more on keeping the stock against the fence. 

A large number of saws were sold at 5 horsepower by stupid magazine articles suggesting that the average user may need 5 horsepower to rip a lot of 8/4 hardwoods. In my opinion, all that did was create a more powerful motor with more angular momentum to really drive the kickbacks faster and harder ).


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## Ttrees

Here are some videos which is a start on Youtube
Gwinnett woodworkers seminar on TS safety (this older one is better)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07uHhrYKDLA&t=3847s 
And...
Mastering your TableSaw on YT also

The next time I plan on using my machine, I'm gonna find the softest plywood I have, and make a pair of pushsticks like what Jacob suggests.
If I feel the need to make a different design, I will take a look at Steve Maskery's design...
It is specified this long by the HSE, or some similar body of knowledgeable safety practitioners. 

The last alarming incident I read about recently was where someone was making dado's in a board.
This person had the whole board to the right of the blade, and fence all the way over to the right hand side of the table extension. 
Cutting this trench an inch or two from the end, it flipped the board.
What I gathered from the consensus is that he should have lowered the blade and slid the fence to the left side if he wanted to cut a groove close to the end of a big board, so that the fence could give better support close to the cut.

Tom


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## JWLeaper

Thanks to everybody that replied and more You Tubing to do which is no bad thing. I'm thinking sometime in the autumn will be when the TS arrives so plenty of time for further research. I realise being terrified of the beast is as bad as being over confident so it’ll be baby steps at first. Once again thanks all.


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## Trevanion

JWLeaper":3s2za85k said:


> Not withstanding the comment above about power tools and small boxes being a bad combination my next purchase is going to be a small table saw (dw745 - cost and size). Where does one turn to learn how to use it safely and still retain the hope of becoming a concert pianist one day.



I think one of the best ones I've seen which also uses the Dewalt 745 saw is the safety video Gosforth Handyman did:

[youtube]eUx8oTIALmg[/youtube]

Our Jacob is a big push stick crusader, and he's not wrong about it at all. I've seen two major-ish and a lot of minor accidents on the table saw and both of the major ones (thumb cut down the middle, palm of hand cut open) could've been totally avoided with proper use of push sticks rather than hand feeding.


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## Trainee neophyte

I am still very new to the table saw, but I have already launched a hefty lump of wood into the ceiling. Luckily, I was standing to the side of the saw, working from behind the fence, so it sailed past me with a loud bang, but no harm done. To be fair, it looked dodgy before I started, which is why I was standing well out of the way.

Things I have learned by getting it wrong:

1. (My personal favourite, and standard working rule): if it looks dangerous, then it probably is. I still cringe at the thought of once routing rebates into a long plank by straddling the plank and routing 3 inches from my trouser area. If the bit had disintegrated....

2. Your table saw REALLY wants to throw bits of wood at you. Plan accordingly.

3. If you haven't done it before, do a dry run without the blade spinning. Assume it is going to bite you, and work out how to stop it. I have, a couple of times now, got half way through a cut and though..."oh, pipper". Best not to be surprised at a gazillion rpm.
4. After cutting the work, bringing it back gives you the chance to drop it onto the blade, which puts a nasty ding in your workpiece, and frightens the willies out of you at the same time. Sounds silly, but it seems to be the easiest moment to get your hand dragged into the doings. I am trying to make elaborate circles away from the blade, to make sure I don't do it again. Note the "again".

5. Do it anyway - how hard can it be, and what could possibly go wrong? The very nice man who installed all my doors and windows was missing ALL his fingers on one hand, from the 2nd knuckle. Respect to him for not doing a half-assed job. I bet he is more careful now. I still have all my fingers, and fingers crossed (ahahaha) will keep it that way. It's a steep learning curve, and seems pretty unforgiving if you get it wrong.


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## JWLeaper

Nice list there trainee, thanks. I particularly like #2


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## Jacob

Trevanion":kgiv64yi said:


> .......
> Our Jacob is a big push stick crusader, and he's not wrong about it at all. I've seen two major-ish and a lot of minor accidents on the table saw and both of the major ones (thumb cut down the middle, palm of hand cut open) could've been totally avoided with proper use of push sticks rather than hand feeding.


Push sticks reduce to near zero the chances of getting a cut. Everything else can go wrong of course but you don't lose any fingers.
But in fact everything else goes better - push sticks give you more control and a longer reach. Takes a bit of time to get used to them but they become second nature.
The next biggest safety measure is to use a crown guard - firmly fixed to the riving knife, not mounted in any other way.
Third is to get into the habit of letting go - if things look as they they are going wrong don't press harder and closer, instead stand back, hands off and let it fly.
And practice switching off with the emergency buttons - hands free with your knee etc.


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## Phil Pascoe

Knowledge. The knowledge that what you are about to do is inherently dangerous makes it safer. Most accidents happen when someone goes into something dangerous without a second thought or a care in the world.


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## transatlantic

Jacob":3op0xfli said:


> Trevanion":3op0xfli said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......
> Our Jacob is a big push stick crusader, and he's not wrong about it at all. I've seen two major-ish and a lot of minor accidents on the table saw and both of the major ones (thumb cut down the middle, palm of hand cut open) could've been totally avoided with proper use of push sticks rather than hand feeding.
> 
> 
> 
> Push sticks reduce to near zero the chances of getting a cut. Everything else can go wrong of course but you don't lose any fingers.
> But in fact everything else goes better - push sticks give you more control and a longer reach. Takes a bit of time to get used to them but they become second nature.
> The next biggest safety measure is to use a crown guard - firmly fixed to the riving knife, not mounted in any other way.
> Third is to get into the habit of letting go - if things look as they they are going wrong don't press harder and closer, instead stand back, hands off and let it fly.
> And practice switching off with the emergency buttons - hands free with your knee etc.
Click to expand...


I know I know you disagree with this, but I still think push sticks give you less control. Much less control than with your hands, both in terms of grip and applied force. 

And yes - I do use two push sticks on every cut! as I would rather have less control of the work piece and damaged that, rather than damage a finger.


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## Jacob

transatlantic":2icqcsdl said:


> .....
> I know I know you disagree with this, but I still think push sticks give you less control. Much less control than with your hands, both in terms of grip and applied force.
> 
> And yes - I do use two push sticks on every cut! as I would rather have less control of the work piece and damaged that, rather than damage a finger.


I mean the standard push stick with a birdsmouth, not just any old stick. With practice you can push down, inwards, lengthways, all together, just as you would with your hand with curled fingers and thumb, same shape as the birdsmouth. You also get extra reach - can push stuff through without hand going near the blade, of hold stuff close to the blade, and so on. Just practice - gets better! I wouldn't be without them, ditto fingers!


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## DBT85

I blame Norm.

As an aside, as learned from a fellow member in the "I bought a tracksaw thread", maybe take our wedding rings off to save a finger.


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## Phil Pascoe

I cut the back of my wedding ring and rounded the ends - I've ripped off three and lost them, but the finger is still there.


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## sunnybob

I did "metalwork" at secondary school, back in the days when 13 year old kids actually DID the metalwork :shock: .
Training counts for a lot and I have never worn a ring, or any jewellery since. I never wore ties either when I worked machinery. I knew a few people who couldnt count to ten using both hands.

I have the 745 saw, and am still learning its use, but after a lifetime of working with machinery that was trying to kill me, the terror has subsided to merely "very cautious"

Another good video on table saw safety is stumpy nubs (good pun, huh?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSbS5zhH7cE
There are 5 videos on safety.


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## ScaredyCat

transatlantic":2zqm0k2r said:


> - Always adjust your blade to be a little above the depth of the piece (adivce on just how much varies), so as to expose as little as possible



I was under the impression that the gullet should be just at the workpiece height. That seems a lot more than 'a little above'.

.


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## DBT85

ScaredyCat":io6jme2w said:


> transatlantic":io6jme2w said:
> 
> 
> 
> - Always adjust your blade to be a little above the depth of the piece (adivce on just how much varies), so as to expose as little as possible
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that the gullet should be just at the workpiece height. That seems a lot more than 'a little above'.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Most things I've seen seemed to suggest about 3mm over. It's what I used when I used my tablesaw.

I now use the same on a tracksaw.


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## Trevanion

I tend to believe the best way is as Scaredycat said, the bottom of the tooth gullets lining up with the top of the timber. Any less than that and the workpiece will want to creep up over the blade, especially with a dull one as there is so much surface (teeth) contact with a shallow cut. I don't tend to pay too much attention to _exact_ heights but just crank it up and down to what I'm comfortable with.


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