# Kitchen Cabinets



## monster

I'm about to embark on a new project - face frame kitchen cabinets - and having never made any before I have a lot of questions that maybe the good people here who are far more experienced may be able to help me out with. I'll also post pics here as I go and document the project.

The cabinets are for our own house and will be built on site. I have a workshop I have set up here in the house and have recently made a sash window that I documented here and a pair of internal doors - that is about the extent of my woodworking, I have never made any cabinets before, although I am pretty handy and keen to get started.

I plan to make the carcasses then add face frame and in frame doors / drawers.

I'm erring towards investing in a Domino as its seems the ideal tool and method for holding the carcasses together attaching the face frame to them and maybe even for the doors - although I may make the doors on the router table with their own mortice and tenons, not got that far yet in my thinking ....

Questions:

1) Am I right in thinking that glued up dominos alone are sufficient to hold the carcass together and attach the face frame if clamped properly - so no screws or additional fixings needed?

2) What material do people recommend to use for the carcass - I would like them to have finished faces and to work well with the Domino system - if indeed that is the route i go?

3) What should I make the face frames and doors out of - I see a lot of the kitchen manufactures use tulip wood - or is there a better alternative?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Yojevol

It sounds as though you are about to embark on a similar enterprise to one of my first serious attempts at woodworking. This was a new kitchen for our local village hall. Here is a view of it 



I used moisture resistant (green) MDF for the basic carcass. It was all put together in situ using biscuits - Dominoes were well into the future back then. The front frames were made as a complete run and again joined with biscuits. I think the front frame was fixed to the carcass with screw blocks. The exposed ends of the carcass were in ash faced MDF - fortunately this only applied to the wall units so green MDF not necessary.
The front frames and doors were, and still are, made of ash. This was chosen, no dictated, by the fact that the local estate provided the timber for free. As you can see the doors and drawer fronts are planted on the front of the frame, which is a lot less time consuming that fitting them flush with the frame.

Brian


----------



## deema

Making cabinets doesn’t necessitate the investment in expensive tools, although that’s not to say it’s not a good reason to buy them  
You can make a carcass which is extremely durable with just glue, or glue and screw, or biscuit and glue, dowel and glue or indeed domino and glue. I’ve made a number just screw and glue. I noticed recently that Peter Millard has released a new uTube video showing how durable and strong a glued MDF joint can actually be.

For face frames pocket screws are a cheap alternative for fixing that’s used.

Cabinets made from MRMDF, Plywood (the old designation used to be water and boil proof, WBP. Most plywood has a better face side, so just be aware when laying out for joints) or indeed faced chipboard are all good solutions. With chipboard the usual failure mode is water penetrating the edges due to poor application of the edging strip. You can now get portable, hand held hot melt edge machines.

For IMO a higher quality finish, I personally like to apply beach to the edges about 20~25mm thick for painted carcasses, and matching wood for veneered stuff.


----------



## mbartlett99

I made the decision to get a domino years ago - I was working in the states at the time - and haven't regretted it one bit. I know its painfully expensive but it is very very precise and very very quick. I've just finished my kitchen - 20 cabinets - and am glad I had it to hand.


----------



## Farmer Giles

I'm making a kitchen for the first time, and its a face frame, and I've made my own carcasses. All dominoed/glued birch ply. Plenty strong enough. The sides are 18mm birch ply, the rear panel 9mm. I fit the rear immediately after assembling the rest of the carcass using glue and an air brad gun but an electric brad gun would do it.

I make sure the rear panel is cut really square, that way you can use it to square up the rest of the cabinet, but I do use parallel clamps which help too. If I get a cabinet that isn't quite square, I clamp across the long diagonal until it is square, fit the rear panel, turn it over and check the other side. I haven't had many issues like this as I have been using a track saw and a big MFT style table with stops so all panels come out the same size and are square. 

Here's my thread on it so far.

Domino machines are expensive but you can sell them afterwards for not much less than you paid new, however I bet you will find more uses. I also use them to lip the ply shelves with oak and joint the face frame, and make the doors........

Cheers
Andy


----------



## Doug71

Domino is good for carcasses as it holds them together while you get some screws in. You can just use dominos and glue but screws let things move along a bit quicker.

Domino is okay for fitting face frames, only thing is it's almost too precise, you have to get things absolutely spot on for size. You can use pocket hole screws where they wont be seen or Hafele do a small bracket for this purpose. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Frame-Fixing-S ... B01FHP8R66

You can make the carcasses out of whatever you want, some people don't like it but MFC is ideal.

Tulip wood is the industry standard for doors and frames, nothing wrong with it but if you don't mind spending a bit more and want something tougher colour no defect maple is a good alternative, that's what I used for mine.

Domino is great for making doors and frames.


----------



## owen

If you don't want to splash out on a domino, a pocket hole jig will make making cabinets easy, and you can also use it for the faceframes. Doors you wouldn't use either for.


----------



## monster

Thanks guys for all your input, lots of good points there for me to mull over. 

For those who use birch ply for carcasses - how do you finish it afterwards? - and why use that over something with a finished surface like MDF or MFC?


----------



## monster

Andy (Farmer Giles) loved reading through your build thread and what you have done to your farmhouse! - I like your ideas on how you made your kitchen too. thanks for that.


----------



## deema

I personally wouldn’t use ply. You need really top quality to avoid it having voids, too many surface defects / patches. Ply moves more than the other two alternatives as well, and it’s difficult to find truly flat stuff as it moves if it’s not stored absolutely flat. Ply is also far more difficult to paint if you want a flat surface without the grain showing through. I might be wrong but I think the perception is that ply is a higher quality more durable material.

I have a few rentals, all with Chipboard carcasses in the kitchen. When properly made they withstand tenants use. For my own next kitchen I will be using MRMDF with beach edging. For face frames, again I prefer beach. It’s very very durable to knocks and bangs. The edges take the brunt of kitchen utensil ‘incidents’ and when they start to deteriorate is when the kitchen starts to look tired.


----------



## Farmer Giles

Thanks Monster

I agree that ply may not be the flatest, but I hate working with MDF or chipboard. I edge shelves with oak to match the kitchen and being a face frame kitchen you don't see any other edges so the occasional void doesn't matter. 

I hate melamine too and edge banding, both can look cheap. Especially if moisture gets on the edges and when heavy pans scratch it.

Finishing ply is an issue, I have used water based polyurethane, Bona Mega, usually used on wooden floors. However it doesn't like prolonged moisture, so if you get a cup with water on the base out of the dishwasher and put it in the cupboard, it can leave a ring as the water can't escape. To prevent this I have lined the cupboards with plastic mesh that you buy on a roll from catering suppliers, it stops heavy pans scratching the surface too.

Each to there own, I'm making our kitchen which is a big difference to fitting kitchens for a living for other people and making a profit. I wouldn't do it how I have done it if I was a kitchen fitter!

+1 for the pocket hole jig, I have used one to fix the face frame and for the odd joint where I couldn't get a domino in.

Cheers
Andy


----------



## monster

Ok, I'm ready to start this project now and am in the midst of drawing up the carcasses which against better advice I want to have a go at making myself. I'm pretty sure I'm going to use a quality MFC like Egger - although Im struggling to find a local supplier (Bournemouth) and it would be nice to have it cut to size first.

So I'm looking at other kitchen carcasses for inspiration as I design my own and I'm wondering why all the sides are secured into the edge of the bottom panel rather than sitting on top of it? With all the weight from a heavy worktop coming down these sides, surely it's better to put that load onto the base panel than onto whatever fixing system is used to secure the sides to the base...? Can anyone help me understand why this seems to be the standard method?

Also, what are peoples thoughts on what the carcasses should sit on - Hafele type plastic kick board legs or should I make up a ladder frame to drop the carcasses onto...?


----------



## Doug71

The sides do normally run top to bottom and often the plastic legs go partly under the bottom edge of the side to transfer the weight down to the floor if that makes sense.


----------



## monster

Hi Doug, yes I see that - I guess thats sufficient, I do tend to overthink things..


----------



## Trainee neophyte

Just a thought - if you are planning on buying the doors rather than making them, don't make the cabinets until you have the doors, just in case the doors are a different size to your cabinets. 

I did it the wrong way around, so had to remake all the cabinets, because the doors were available in 5mm increments only, and I had gone very bespoke. If you are making the doors, I believe it is normal to make the doors first, and fit the carcasses to them, for the same reason. It's also easier to have a load of doors kicking around, rather than a huge pile of boxes, while you assemble the rest of the stuff.


----------



## monster

I will be making the doors, and plan to apply a face frame to the carcasses as well, so the doors and drawers will in inframe. There is nothing in the kitchen at the moment - its bare, Ive just laid a reclaimed mahogany floor and built in a chimney extractor, my workshop is currently on the floor above the kitchen so I can make the carcasses and then carry them down and place them in position and then apply the frames with them in position. Pic of the space.


----------



## sammy.se

Farmer Giles":2hhacqh6 said:


> Domino machines are expensive but you can sell them afterwards for not much less than you paid new, however I bet you will find more uses. I also use them to lip the ply shelves with oak and joint the face frame, and make the doors........



I don't think I should have read that... It's a very good way to justify buying a domino... 
Are you a hobbyist woodworker or professional? just curious about hobbyist use of a domino.


----------



## thomashenry

I made my kitchen a few years ago using a £35 Kreg pocket hole jig for almost all the joinery. Cabinets were 18mm ply with poplar face frames. I also used a £150 makita chop saw and a £15 circular saw, as well as a handheld drill driver of course. I used the jig to make the inset frame and panel doors too.

These days I'm more or less a hand tool purist, but at the time, the pocket hole method was perfect for me, and I do still use the jig from time to time.

Here's the jig:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kreg-185823-Ji ... diy&sr=1-1

and this is the build thread of my kitchen

post1228706.html#p1063391


----------



## Doug71

Monster, that is a lovely room to start with, pressure is on you to make a top end kitchen that will do it justice (hammer)


----------



## AJB Temple

In my experience, if you buy good quality baltic birch ply, and you get the right thickness, then it will be dead flat and void free. I spray lacquer the insides. I use 24mm BB ply for the cabinets, with 18mm for the backs and I use oak framing because I like oak. 24mm BB will lie flat. Cuts lovely with a decent track saw.

As for domino - brilliant tool. Super accurate, fast and very flexible. Mine is 110v and was bought very cheap (£200) almost brand new from guy who simply didn't use it. As it is only used in my workshop, plugging it into a transformer is no big deal. I am on the hunt for a big s/h Domino as well.


----------



## monster

Thomas - yes it just goes to show you dont need to spend a lot on tools to be able to produce something decent - I'll enjoy looking through your thread!

Doug, thanks for that - the room was in fact a number of smaller rooms with a chimney in the middle of them and some of the floors were solid and other suspended so its taken me quite a while to get it to this stage, I also made a triple sash window detailed another thread which you can just see the edge of under the arch. I actually made the arch myself too, it matches others in the house with an ovolo plaster detail around the edge which is spun in situ using a running mould.

AJB - 24mm is thicker than what most people use for carcassing - Re. ply - I'm not keen on having to finishing the insides and melamine seems such an ideal finish for cabinet insides as its easy to clean and robust. 

Anyone used Cutwrights? - I can't find anyone close to me who can supply Egger boards.


----------



## AJB Temple

Yes, I know most people don't use 24mm, but then they moan about movement. The price difference from 18mm to 24mm (assuming a good quality supplier who will not sell junk with voids and a lot of patches on the obverse face) is trivial in the context of a full kitchen build. I am building for myself and I expect it to last forever so I make stuff strong!


----------



## owen

AJB Temple":36f1t4hs said:


> Yes, I know most people don't use 24mm, but then they moan about movement. The price difference from 18mm to 24mm (assuming a good quality supplier who will not sell junk with voids and a lot of patches on the obverse face) is trivial in the context of a full kitchen build. I am building for myself and I expect it to last forever so I make stuff strong!



18mm is perfectly adequate for kitchen cabinets, with a 6mm back. 24mm with 18mm backs is way overkill.


----------



## monster

Egger MFC seems to be stocked by Cutwrights in predominantly two thicknesses -18mm and 8mm. I'll use 18mm for carcasses and 8mm for the rears of carcass with an oak finish to the melamine, but would the 8mm MFC also be suitable for the drawer bottoms if I was to use it there as well? I plan on making oak dovetailed drawer boxes, and if possible would like to use the same oak finish melamine faced particle board for these drawers bottoms?


----------



## doctor Bob

monster":3fb8c2h4 said:


> I plan on making oak dovetailed drawer boxes, and if possible would like to use the same oak finish melamine faced particle board for these drawers bottoms?



If it's solid oak sides use 9mm veneer oak for the bottoms. Don't mix and match. It will look terrible if you do.


----------



## monster

Hi Doctor Bob, Are you suggesting veneered mdf, ply or particle board?

Would you use similar veneered finish for the carcasses and shelves as well - or go with melamine finish?

thanks


----------



## doctor Bob

monster":1o3pgaox said:


> Hi Doctor Bob, Are you suggesting veneered mdf, ply or particle board?
> 
> Would you use similar veneered finish for the carcasses and shelves as well - or go with melamine finish?
> 
> thanks



Keep the drawerboxes all solid oak and oak veneer bases. Nothing wrong with Eggerboard carcases.
We tend to do the show cabinets in veneers, things like fancy larders, work top mounted bifolds etc rest in MFC but it all depends on clients budget


----------



## monster

Thanks for that Bob - for the veneered drawer bottoms what would board substrate would you use - ply / mdf or particle board?


----------



## doctor Bob

monster":3v1b49k7 said:


> Thanks for that Bob - for the veneered drawer bottoms what would board substrate would you use - ply / mdf or particle board?



I use 10mm veneered MDF.


----------



## monster

doctor Bob":11aelnns said:


> I use 10mm veneered MDF.



Great thanks


----------



## Farmer Giles

sammy.se":2g3ftoch said:


> Farmer Giles":2g3ftoch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Domino machines are expensive but you can sell them afterwards for not much less than you paid new, however I bet you will find more uses. I also use them to lip the ply shelves with oak and joint the face frame, and make the doors........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I should have read that... It's a very good way to justify buying a domino...
> Are you a hobbyist woodworker or professional? just curious about hobbyist use of a domino.
Click to expand...


I guess I'm a hobbyist, definitely not professional, but I do seem to be making a lot of stuff recently, I have gone through a few bulk bags of dominoes. I'm just making a new posh chicken shed, the nest boxes are being made from 12mm external grade ply, fixed with Dominoes....


----------



## monster

Ok, so I've ordered all the carcass panels cut to the exact finished size by Cutwrights, came to 144 separate panels out of 10 sheets of 2.8m x 2.0 Egger MFC - never been so scared ordering anything in all my life, I can't believe for one minute I have got all the measurements correct with no errors / omissions etc - each time I went over my cut list I spotted mistakes lol. Delivery is Tuesday....

Ive been nipping into as many high end Kitchen shops as possible, with the Misses as cover in order to get ideas and observe construction methods - I plan to use butt hinges for cup'd doors with cock bead machined into the face frame and Ive noticed on more than one occasion that the hinge is let only into the door and not into cabinet frame - they let it deep into the door and then just fix it atop the frame - can anyone enlighten me on the reason for this? Personally I would like to let the hinges into both the door and frame with if possible the pin in line with the cock bead in the frame.


----------



## sammy.se

monster":1jnpjamm said:


> ...Personally I would like to let the hinges into both the door and frame with if possible the pin in line with the cock bead in the frame.



I believe it was Custard who said that was as classy as a classy thing...


----------



## Doug71

monster":syhc75bn said:


> Personally I would like to let the hinges into both the door and frame with if possible the pin in line with the cock bead in the frame.



I just cut the hinges almost double in to door then screw to frame, the screws easily support the weight and it doesn't mess up the lines of the cock bead. Once you start trying to line the knuckle up with the cock bead you are getting in to some serious joinery involving feathering the hinges in on an angle etc, looks nice but not easy.


----------



## doctor Bob

monster":2tuob1d2 said:


> Personally I would like to let the hinges into both the door and frame with if possible the pin in line with the cock bead in the frame.



We did this on some really high end stuff for a well known actor a few years ago, detailed on the brief from interior designer. It is a real pain in the buttocks. It requires an angled rebate on the frame and door.
We had about 8 doors to hang and we cut them by hand. It didn't float my boat and I personally wouldn't do it on a kitchen.


----------



## sammy.se

doctor Bob":91x8oyz1 said:


> monster":91x8oyz1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I would like to let the hinges into both the door and frame with if possible the pin in line with the cock bead in the frame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We did this on some really high end stuff for a well known actor a few years ago, detailed on the brief from interior designer. It is a real pain in the buttocks. It requires an angled rebate on the frame and door.
> We had about 8 doors to hang and we cut them by hand. It didn't float my boat and I personally wouldn't do it on a kitchen.
Click to expand...

What's your usual method for your kitchens, Bob? Do you let the hinges in both the door and the frame?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


----------



## doctor Bob

sammy.se":15or5h8n said:


> doctor Bob":15or5h8n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> monster":15or5h8n said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I would like to let the hinges into both the door and frame with if possible the pin in line with the cock bead in the frame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We did this on some really high end stuff for a well known actor a few years ago, detailed on the brief from interior designer. It is a real pain in the buttocks. It requires an angled rebate on the frame and door.
> We had about 8 doors to hang and we cut them by hand. It didn't float my boat and I personally wouldn't do it on a kitchen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What's your usual method for your kitchens, Bob? Do you let the hinges in both the door and the frame?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


we let them into the door, not the frame.


----------



## monster

Thanks for all the responses on the hinge point - so the reason they are let into the door only, is it looks neater than cutting into the cockbead - i guess its easier as well as there is only one recess to cut.. I'd love to hear any other opinions as to how other folk do theirs?


----------



## monster

So I've received all the material for the carcasses from Cutwrights and am about to start assembling them, I'm also turning my attention now to the face frames and doors / drawer fronts and would like to finalise my cut list and get the order in for that.

I'm torn between using tulipwood / poplar or steamed beech. I'm aware the beech is quite a bit harder than tulipwood, but I have heard it can move around a bit so that concerns me - can you good folk on here please help guide me one way or the other?


----------



## LBCarpentry

Beech over tulip wood every time for me! My experience of tulip is that it moved a tonne I wasn’t impressed at all. Think beech is cheaper also.


----------



## LBCarpentry

And for hinges - I just use ball bearing flush hinges from ironmongery direct. No cutting in just screwed direct to door and frame. Fast and Leaves a nice 1.5mm gap on hinge side.


----------



## wsb1207

LBCarpentry":3l1n59m0 said:


> And for hinges - I just use ball bearing flush hinges from ironmongery direct. No cutting in just screwed direct to door and frame. Fast and Leaves a nice 1.5mm gap on hinge side.


Saw these the other day, we're building a larder unit soon and was thinking about trying them. Are they strong enough for a bigger door without fitting too many?


----------



## monster

Aiming to buy poplar and American white oak rough sawn - can anyone please give me a rough idea of the price i should be paying? and how is it priced - by the cubic foot?


----------



## Doug71

I haven't bought any Tulipwood since before lockdown but the last lot I got I paid £854.50 m3 + vat from Arnold Laver, that was 31.75mm thick, random widths, rough sawn.


----------



## doctor Bob

Doug71":2fhcl2sx said:


> ................ that was 31.75mm thick, random widths, rough sawn.



:lol: :lol: :lol: you sure some wasn't 31.8mm in places.


----------



## monster

Thanks for that Doug - that gives me something to work off!

Anyone know how the American white oak compares in price to poplar?


----------



## Doug71

doctor Bob":3toco0h8 said:


> Doug71":3toco0h8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ................ that was 31.75mm thick, random widths, rough sawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: you sure some wasn't 31.8mm in places.
Click to expand...


I know, I asked for 1 1/4" and that's what they sent me :wink: 



monster":3toco0h8 said:


> Anyone know how the American white oak compares in price to poplar?



I have not bought any Oak for ages, when I do I generally get European White as it's more interesting, last lot I got was about £2000 m3 rough sawn for 27 mm. Oak is different to some hardwoods as it gets more expensive the thicker you get it, most species seem to be about the same price per m3 whatever their thickness.


----------



## monster

Thanks Doug,

Ive just worked out roughly that I'll need about 0.65 cubic m of poplar and 0.35 cubic m of oak, my back of a fag pack calcs tell me that's around £600 for each.

I've put a cut list together so I'll get that into a few places Monday and see what they come back with.


----------



## HOJ

This is only to give you an idea of prices for Oak, from my suppliers web site:

https://www.suttontimber.co.uk/trade/prices/


----------



## monster

So finally started actually cutting something today! Boring the holes for the little brass Hafele shelf pin ferrules. Hafele at great expense sell a little tool that drills the hole, but I don't think it counterbores for the head of the ferrule as whenever I have seen them fitted in cabinets they sit proud of the surface.

I wanted the heads flush so I made a little jig up to guide the router and bored and counter bored a half mm deep recess for the head - they fit nice and snug now and flush with the surface, I'm happy with the finish.


----------



## monster

Sorry its not real wood - but that will come later!


----------



## doctor Bob

are you going brass? they look brass. 

and light serano oak?


----------



## monster

doctor Bob":29xy708v said:


> are you going brass? they look brass.
> 
> and light serano oak?



Ha - Well spotted Bob! Yes its Egger's light Sorano oak and the little inserts are brass. It's a neat way of finishing off the shelf pin holes, only a minor detail - but they all count and hopefully at the end will add up to a half decent job. Ive assembled a few kitchens in the past, but never actually made one before, so I'm feeling my way as I go.

Just about to order rough sawn timber for the face frames and doors - I've never bought or used rough sawn boards before so its all a new experience for me. I have a little old Dewalt DW55 Planer/Thicknesser that I bought off another forum member so thats about to come into use - Ive just been setting it all up, getting the tables level and the blades cutting true. Looking forward to getting into it and learning on the job and its so rewarding to be actually making things!


----------



## Alder

Farmer Giles":2ldmbbhw said:


> sammy.se":2ldmbbhw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Farmer Giles":2ldmbbhw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Domino machines are expensive but you can sell them afterwards for not much less than you paid new, however I bet you will find more uses. I also use them to lip the ply shelves with oak and joint the face frame, and make the doors........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I should have read that... It's a very good way to justify buying a domino...
> Are you a hobbyist woodworker or professional? just curious about hobbyist use of a domino.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess I'm a hobbyist, definitely not professional, but I do seem to be making a lot of stuff recently, I have gone through a few bulk bags of dominoes. I'm just making a new posh chicken shed, the nest boxes are being made from 12mm external grade ply, fixed with Dominoes....
Click to expand...

I hope my Grandsons chickens don't here about the nest boxes with dominoes, his have to make do with roosts from pallet strechers and timber screws.
Russell


----------



## monster

So I've assembled all the carcasses and placed them roughly in situ. Used Domino's and carcass screws so I didn't have to wait for glue to dry in clamps.

Ive also taken delivery of a stack of rough sawn Tulipwood and America white Oak from Lathams. Ive been ripping the tulipwood planks down for the face frame and been running them through the planer/thicknesser today. The DeWalt DW1150 that I bought off forum member LancsRick is working well - I spent some time replacing blades and getting tables square and level and cutting true to the cutter block, happy with the way its performing now, I also bought a small chip extractor from Axminster which is doing a good job of rapidly filling bin bags with chips :|


----------



## Max Power

Looking very good monster, what is the shallow tall cabinet and are the blocks down the side of it packers for end panels to go against ?


----------



## monster

Thanks Max, Shallow tall cabinet is going to be a spice/sauce/bottles cupboard - the wifes orders!

The blocks are just to secure the carcasses in place - the plan is to frame each unit with a sort of fluted pilaster on either side - so those blocks will eventually be hidden also means no visible holes needed in inside of carcass. The pilasters will make for a fair bit of wasted space, but hopefully will look quite nice and end up giving each cabinet more of a 'furniture' feel, rather than just looking like a kitchen cabinet! - that's the plan anyway - just feeling my way really as I've never done anything like this before.


----------



## Doug71

Looking good monster, there is a lot of work in making a kitchen, especially when you are doing it properly. Do you have a deadline, Christmas maybe?


----------



## monster

Thanks Doug, yes Christmas is the deadline - maybe a bit earlier if possible.


----------



## monster

Since I now have a Domino - which I’m very impressed with - does anyone have any tips on how to use it for connecting the face frame together and also for then using it connect the face frame to the carcasses?


----------



## sammy.se

I read about one method (but not done it myself) which is you work out how much reveal/offset your face frame will have Vs the inside of the cupboard. E.g. on the bottom, your face frame might be flush, so it's the same offset on both the frame and the carcass. If at the top of the cabinet, your face frame over hangs the inside surface of the top of your carcass by say, 5mm, then you add 5mm to the fence height when you cut the mortice in the face frame. So basically, always reference the inside surface and work out the offset based on the amount of overhang of the face frame. 

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


----------



## Doug71

Think I mentioned it before but the domino is almost too precise, if your carcass is 500mm outside and your face frame 500.5mm you will struggle.

I would take your mitre saw into the kitchen and cut/fit the face frames in situ, for example cut and temporarily domino on the outside uprights then you can cut the horizontals tight between. You can then take them back to workshop to glue up.

Not sure how you are dealing with the cockbead but I often make up the face frames from square timber and pin the cockbead on after. I know it's not the proper way of doing it but makes it easier if you don't have all the kit for cutting out the the mitres and its easier to domino square frames together.


----------



## monster

Thanks for that Sammy. Doug, I understand what you mean there about being to accurate, you’d be referencing off different datums so asking for trouble!

I’m going to use the Kreg beaded face frame system to generate the notches and beading In the face frame and i’dlike then to use the domino to hold the rails and stiles together - that’s the first bit to accomplish - then I need to attach the whole frame to the front of the MFC caracasses were the issue of marrying up the domino mortices as you have highlighted becomes a challenge...


----------



## doctor Bob

a bit of thin cardboard about 1/2mm is all you need when fitting face frames. No need to adjust domino or buscuiter.
Don't do anything flush, have 1/2mm step to hide mel edge at bottom, same with sides as I fit the carcase to the frame inside but if you want the carcase to the outside still have a step on the outside to ensure you can fit the frame to frame tight.


----------



## monster

doctor Bob":2pcnbonu said:


> a bit of thin cardboard about 1/2mm is all you need when fitting face frames. No need to adjust domino or buscuiter.
> Don't do anything flush, have 1/2mm step to hide mel edge at bottom, same with sides as I fit the carcase to the frame inside but if you want the carcase to the outside still have a step on the outside to ensure you can fit the frame to frame tight.



Hi Bob, I understand what you mean by not attempting to fit the the frames flush - I am making them 38mm wide so that will leave a 1mm lip all around when applied to 2 x 18mm carcasses. 

But as Doug mentioned earlier - how to you ensure that the domino slots aren't 'so accurate' that as reference points vary you will find the dominos dont line up exactly?


----------



## doctor Bob

Just put it on a loose fit slot.


----------



## doctor Bob

I just buscuit them on, cheaper and easier.


----------



## monster

doctor Bob":29kg8n7f said:


> Just put it on a loose fit slot.



That only works in one plane though - what about the other plane....


----------



## doctor Bob

monster":1ap0m2ko said:


> doctor Bob":1ap0m2ko said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just put it on a loose fit slot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That only works in one plane though - what about the other plane....
Click to expand...


How far out / in accurate are you going to be ....................... :lol:


----------



## Jonathan S

Monster.....I no longer try and fit 2 carcass to 1 face frame, try and give each carcass it's own face frame, it makes everything easy and actually looks ok.

Regards settings the domino up for carcass to face frame joint......I just do test pieces and keep the referance. 

For the mason mitre joints I domino before cutting the cock bead.....I have made jigs and incorporated toggle clamps to help cutting these joints.
This joint is also easier to finish if the cock bead is set in 1 or 2 mm.

Sent from my SM-J530F using Tapatalk


----------



## monster

Thanks for that Jon - yes that sounds like a good idea to cut the domino mortice first before notching or beading - i guess i'll just try and figure out the best way for me as I go!


----------



## monster

So I've made a start on the face frames - doing the simpler ones first. Using domino's and glue to hold them together - the domino is a great little device for this sort of thing simple to use and a nice strong discreet joint - I enjoy using it.

I took delivery of a Kreg beaded face frame jig on Wednesday and really impressed with it - its well made and produces a lovely result - would be nice to have a second router table so each could be left set up, one with the notching bit and the other with the beading bit.

Very happy with the results so far, here's some pics of the first frames I've made - the more complicated and larger ones for the island and pantry are next up - I aim to make them as one single frame. Just waiting for some pipe clamps to arrive as I need some long clamping capability!


----------



## sammy.se

Looks great. Is that the larger or smaller kreg beading bit?

I bought the kreg small beading bit and notching bit when I was last in the states, haven't tried them yet.

The jig was a bit pricey for me so I will attempt to make my own sled on the router table with markings/stops to get the notches right.


Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


----------



## Doug71

Looking good =D> =D> =D>


----------



## monster

sammy.se":1x2ngu4h said:


> Looks great. Is that the larger or smaller kreg beading bit?
> 
> I bought the kreg small beading bit and notching bit when I was last in the states, haven't tried them yet.
> 
> The jig was a bit pricey for me so I will attempt to make my own sled on the router table with markings/stops to get the notches right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk



Hi Sammy - its the smaller bit - Kreg call it 1/4" - to be more specific its 3/16" radius with 1/16" quirk giving a total of 1/4". So its a small detail, and in my eye looks about right for smaller cabinets such as kitchen units - if I was doing a wardrobe I would use a bigger size.

I did think of making up my own sled, but this is a really nice system to use, and the flip stop is very accurate and makes using it easy.


----------



## monster

Doug71":3rokywlr said:


> Looking good =D> =D> =D>



Cheers Doug - its really satisfying to be making stuff!

I'm working out how to machine the flutes as I want them to taper out as they finish rather than come to an abrupt stop, I think i will need a ramp that the router or workpiece rides up on towards the end of the cut - anyone got any thoughts? - not sure whether to tackle them with a router and guide or to do them on the router table....


----------



## sammy.se

monster":12n6wxzw said:


> sammy.se":12n6wxzw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks great. Is that the larger or smaller kreg beading bit?
> 
> I bought the kreg small beading bit and notching bit when I was last in the states, haven't tried them yet.
> 
> The jig was a bit pricey for me so I will attempt to make my own sled on the router table with markings/stops to get the notches right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Sammy - its the smaller bit - Kreg call it 1/4" - to be more specific its 3/16" radius with 1/16" quirk giving a total of 1/4". So its a small detail, and in my eye looks about right for smaller cabinets such as kitchen units - if I was doing a wardrobe I would use a bigger size.
> 
> I did think of making up my own sled, but this is a really nice system to use, and the flip stop is very accurate and makes using it easy.
Click to expand...

Thanks, agreed about the size - I also got the smaller cutter. 

Yes their system is pretty good indeed.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


----------



## monster

Had a go at fitting the face frames today, went a lot easier than I thought. Used dominos again and turned out to be a very straightforward process.


----------



## monster

Been machining up the more complex face frames today. The beauty of using dominos and the Kreg beading system is that the dominos locate the joint in one axis and the notch that the Kreg system produces locates in the other plane, this makes clamping and gluing up a lot easier as the joint pulls together and seats itself as the clamps are done up, there is no slippage or fighting for alignment.


----------



## monster

Made and fitted some of the more complex face frames over the last few days. Some pics!


----------



## monster

Making the fluted pilasters which will sit at the corner of each cabinet. Made a little sled to locate and guide the router for each flute and made a little ramp at each end of workpiece to raise the cutter out of the timber giving a tapered look to the flutes rather than an abrupt stop.


----------



## robump

monster said:


> Making the fluted pilasters which will sit at the corner of each cabinet. Made a little sled to locate and guide the router for each flute and made a little ramp at each end of workpiece to raise the cutter out of the timer giving a tapered look to the flutes rather than an abrupt stop.



Nice jig, following this thread with interest, really good looking work so far and interesting to see how you are approaching it


----------



## monster

Thanks for the kind comments robump, just feeling my way really - I know what I want to achieve and I'm just working out how to get there along the way! 

Here's a pic of the island with the fluted pilasters attached - I used dominos to attach the two fluted panels together to form a 90deg pair and then attached that to the island - I'm finding a use for the domino on virtually everything - its an ingenious invention, the more I use it the more I appreciate it.

I need to plumb the sink and dishwasher in next and then I guess its on to the end panels - I'll make them in the same manner as the doors - they will in effect be doors I guess that are fixed in place..


----------



## Mcluma

Beautiful work


----------



## porker

Great job! I'm 'augmenting' a bought kitchen at the moment by making the end panels etc and also putting corner posts in. Nothing as nice as your work but getting some good ideas. I've made fluted features on some built ins before but love your 'ramps' on the end detail. Please keep showing progress.


----------



## monster

Thanks guys for the comments! - I've not been able to do much this last week as Ive been up on the roof renewing the lead flashing alongside a parapet wall and around two chimneys - hard work climbing a tower and scrambling around on a pitched roof all day - looking forward to get back to the woodwork!


----------



## robump

Just wondering.... how did you design this, did you do it on paper or use CAD? I am about to embark on some cabinets for a utility room and wondering how to go about the design phase.


----------



## monster

robump said:


> Just wondering.... how did you design this, did you do it on paper or use CAD? I am about to embark on some cabinets for a utility room and wondering how to go about the design phase.


Apologies for late reply, I designed it on paper although if you have access to a CAD package and are proficient with its use then that would I am sure be a better way. You can see my paper drawings on Island in last pic 

Just had the worktop guys in to template and they used a digital scanner that sat on a tripod and logged all the relavent co-ordinates and generates the diagrams / templates and cut list for the granite fabricators. Very impressive!


----------



## monster

About to start making the drawer boxes shortly, what do folk use as the 'standard' sort of sizes - both in terms of thickness of material and relative heights of sides and front back?

I'll be making them from rough sawn oak which I have already bought in, I'll dovetail them using a jig - need to make around 26 off.


----------



## Farmer Giles

All my drawer side stock is nominally 11mm thick and 100mm wide.

Front and sides all the same height, I've put a 1/4" groove all the way around to hold the base which is 6mm ply.

I made the mistake of buying planed oak "to speed things up" By the time I got around to making the drawers they had moved a bit so had to put them through the PT anyway, so now about 10.6mm x 98mm. If your using a jig, its is easier if all the stock is identical in thickness and width, saves a lot of fettling later.

So far I've made 21 through dovetail drawers. I have about 19 to make for the utility, it was 14 but the missus keeps moving the goalpost.

I then have 12 half blind small drawers without sliders for teas etc.

Cheers
Andy


----------



## Doug71

monster said:


> Just had the worktop guys in to template and they used a digital scanner that sat on a tripod and logged all the relavent co-ordinates and generates the diagrams / templates and cut list for the granite fabricators. Very impressive!



Last kitchen I did the template guy was some spotty kid who looked about 14, he turned up with a tripod, a laser and a laptop, did his thing and emailed measurements off to the fabricators. I was a bit dubious because there were some awkward shapes incorporating window cills etc but the fitters turned up a few days later and it all fitted perfectly.



monster said:


> About to start making the drawer boxes shortly, what do folk use as the 'standard' sort of sizes - both in terms of thickness of material and relative heights of sides and front back?



I generally make the drawers 16mm thick, seem to recall this was the thickest Blum recommended for use on the runners. Blum do give all the recommended clearances for height etc, that is if you are using Blum. The height can also be dictated by your Dovetail jig if it is the fixed type.

Don't know why I'm bothering telling you this as you seem to know what you are doing so far


----------



## monster

Cheers Andy - I bought a secondhand Leigh jig - basic one, been having a play with it and it seems easier and quicker to do blind dovetails rather than through dovetails on it - bearing in mind I will be afixing plant on fronts - I guess it doesn't matter what type of dovetail is used - do you have any thoughts on that?


----------



## monster

Doug, yes i plan on using Blum runners - just bought a single set to have a play around with - I see they say a maximum thickness of 16mm for the drawer sides in their blurb - my rough stock is around 20mm so I can take it down to what I like - I guess one advantage of staying closer to 16mm is I'll be generating less sawdust  - what do folk do with it all - I generated nearly 20 bin bags of the stuff just planing down material for the face frames!! - they weren't to happy at the tip when i turned up with it all!

Doug I'm learning as i go - not done this before - all Ive made before is a Sash window which was the first thing I did - with help from people on here - i did a little thread on that - i then made an internal door - one of the ones you will see in the kitchen pics - and then on to the kitchen - been buying machinery and tools as i go.


----------



## Farmer Giles

monster said:


> Cheers Andy - I bought a secondhand Leigh jig - basic one, been having a play with it and it seems easier and quicker to do blind dovetails rather than through dovetails on it - bearing in mind I will be afixing plant on fronts - I guess it doesn't matter what type of dovetail is used - do you have any thoughts on that?



I've only made through dovetails on the leigh jig so far. The main top kitchen drawers will have false fronts so you won't see the pins, just the dovetails. The drawers within cabinets are also through dovetails as I like the look and as the stock is quite thin it made sense.

The small drawers with integral fronts will be half blind as they are not inside cupboards, but the fronts will be thicker than the sides. The fronts will probably be closer to 20mm, the sides and back 11mm. I have no idea if that will pose a problem as I haven't got that far with the jig yet.


----------



## monster

Ive got a basic small Leigh jig that I bought off ebay, just getting to grips with it and have made first drawer box, I tried the three different modes of operation - through dovetails, half blind dovetails and single pass half blind dovetails - Ive decided to use the latter as it reduces production time since both pins and tails are cut at the same time. I also need to do the notching for the Blum drawer runners - any tips on the best way to do that?

Also, what do folk recommend for finishing the drawers with - I keep reading about shellac...?

Some pics.


----------



## Farmer Giles

I notch my runners out with a japanese saw and a chisel. Takes moments, not worth getting a router set up for it.


----------



## monster

Farmer Giles said:


> I notch my runners out with a japanese saw and a chisel. Takes moments, not worth getting a router set up for it.


Thanks for that Giles, yes I ended up doing the same on the drawer above - tenon saw and chisel, it felt a bit crude but its unseen..

Ive just made the one drawer and fitted it to get a feel for the complete operation - I'll now do the remaining 20 in two or three batches, Ive just been planing and thicknessing the timber up today.


----------



## robump

As a matter of interest... Which blum range did you go for? Movento, Tandem etc?


----------



## monster

robump said:


> As a matter of interest... Which blum range did you go for? Movento, Tandem etc?


I went for Movento, I think they are Blums latest runners - since I am making in frame drawers I also added the optional depth adjustment which gives the 4th dimension of adjustment. Not cheap though!

Here they are fitted in one of the cabinets:


----------



## robump

monster said:


> I went for Movento, I think they are Blums latest runners - since I am making in frame drawers I also added the optional depth adjustment which gives the 4th dimension of adjustment. Not cheap though!
> 
> Here they are fitted in one of the cabinets:



Thanks Monster - I agree, not cheap but they look good. How are you doing to face the shelves? Are you going to edge band it?


----------



## monster

I'll face the shelves with an oak strip - got loads of off cuts from the drawers so I'll plane them to size and use maybe 3 little dominos in each and glue them in place. Just been thinking about that today actually and trying to work out whether to rout in a little detail along the face or leave them plain. If anyone has any suggestion please fire away!


----------



## doctor Bob

we used to do a detail but now like plain, tiny chamfer top and bottom, I like to lip with a piece of 37mm to create a thicker looking shelf, so you have 19mm hanging down.


----------



## monster

Thanks for that comment Bob, yes I did think of facing with a deeper profile as you suggested, and I think it would look better, then I thought of the times in the past when a shelf has got damaged and you want to turn it over and have a fresh side up! - hmmm... decisions decisions!


----------



## PetePontoValentino

monster said:


> I went for Movento, I think they are Blums latest runners - since I am making in frame drawers I also added the optional depth adjustment which gives the 4th dimension of adjustment. Not cheap though!
> 
> Here they are fitted in one of the cabinets:



That cabinet is absolutely stunning and exactly where I would like to go with my next kitchen (getting away from the current commercial chipboard offerings). I was concerned about doing this myself as my joints are terrible, however, having read this thread I have ordered a router and dovetail jig to see how I do. 

Thank you everyone who has contributed to this thread.


----------



## monster

Cheers Pete, I'd never done anything like this before, my advice would be to research each technique and then spend time familiarising yourself with the tools and understanding how they operate.


----------



## PetePontoValentino

monster said:


> Cheers Pete, I'd never done anything like this before, my advice would be to research each technique and then spend time familiarising yourself with the tools and understanding how they operate.



I have watched a couple of YouTube video's on using dovetail jigs with routers and am feeling rather excited about having a go. My previous dovetails have involved mallet and chisel and have, quite frankly, been total rubbish.

I will return home on Sunday but see that Swiss Post will deliver my router this morning so next week is going to be interesting. I plan to start by making a simple box or even just a few joints to see how it goes, then plan the full monty. I have time as we don't plan to change the kitchen until spring, however our Aga will arrive then so we will have to make room.

Exciting times!


----------



## monster

Ha - I can feel the enthusiasm! - What jig did you go for?

If you went for a Leigh, the instructions that come with them are very good, I just followed them in test pieces, making through dovetails, variably spaced half blind, and then single pass half blind. The manual walks you easily through each and if you take time to understand how each adjustment affects the workpiece you will soon pick it up.

I ended up using the 'single pass half blind dovetails' on these drawers as they seemed the quickest to do as you are cutting both the pins and tails at the same time. You are restricted with even uniform spacing though when in 'single pass' mode.

I'm currently assembling and finish sanding the final 14 drawers at the moment - the notching for the runners is the biggest pain in the buttocks job as there is no easy way to automate it for such a small one off batch.


----------



## monster

Just been looking at your website Pete and your adventure in Switzerland, that looks a lovely house and a great project. Ive always had a soft spot for Switzerland - I did think there were restrictions on buying property there if you weren't a resident though..


----------



## monster

Finally got all 21 drawers finished and fitted, very happy with them, I gave them a few spray coats of lacquer out of a rattle can to seal the timber.

Also had worktop fitted, its a quartzite, so being a natural stone that is apparently harder than granite, the stonemasons struggled to machine the ogee detail that the Boss requested around the perimeter - easy for us to do such a thing when working in timber, but its a lot of material removal for stone cutting machines. The quartzite has a lot of natural fissures in it which it can crack along so a tricky job for them. It is finished and in situ now though and very happy with it.

A few little jobs to do then its on to the end panels, drawer fronts and doors - which are essentially all the same in their construction method and appearance - ie pair of rails and stiles and a centre panel - they will just vary in size. I think its 45 panels in total I will have to make.

A few up to date pics of progress so far:


----------



## sammy.se

Looks great. That's turning into a grand kitchen!


----------



## robump

Great progress Monster - looks awesome! I noted you lacquered the draws, are you going to lacquer the veneer or is it already prefinished?


----------



## monster

robump said:


> Great progress Monster - looks awesome! I noted you lacquered the draws, are you going to lacquer the veneer or is it already prefinished?


The drawer bottoms are pre-finished so I didn’t lacquer them - they’re 8mm Egger board - melamine faced particle board. Actually a very good match to the real oak itself! Cabinets are made of the same but in 18mm.


----------



## Jonathan S

Monster, Very nice !! I would imagine you feel very happy with the results so far.
Nice La canche I see there, last kitchen I made I had the oven built to the clients spec and they made it to high, the top ended up being above worktops by about 15mm, it actually looked ok if not better than having it flush.
What colour will the kitchen facade be?


----------



## monster

Cheers Jonathan, I think the Misses is going for an off white - she says bone colour lol. She’ll choose it but I’ll have to apply it!!

Just machining up some strips of oak today to apply to the shelf fronts.


----------



## ScaredyCat

sammy.se said:


> Looks great. That's turning into a grand kitchen!



Well over a grand ....


----------



## monster

Ha, well I’m certainly having a grand time making it!


----------



## Tomdw82

Monster - Just wanted to say that looks superb! I’ve joined this forum to just continue to watch your kitchen build! (And obviously I am interested in cabinet making!)


----------



## monster

Tom, thanks very much for such kind words  I've got a few more pics here I can post up. The first 3 are of the shallow spice cupboard and the final one shows the pocket door sliding mechanism that will enable the centre doors of the top half of the pantry to open and slide into out of the way.


----------



## monster

I'm in the midst of ripping down planks of tulip wood and milling them to size for the doors, drawer fronts and end panels.
I'll use a profile scribing cutter in the router table to machine up the rails and stiles and I'll hang the doors with butt hinges.
I have a question for the experienced! - What is the best way to ensure I finish up with good fitting doors - is it to make them slightly oversize and then plane to fit?


----------



## clogs

Nice work.....I'd make em a tad tight and adjust to suit each opening.....
biggest prob with solid wood doors is seasonal movement......
for specials, make em a snug fit in the winter then the gaps wont be so bad in the summer....
BUT indoor heating and humidity will also create havoc.....
I'd still go with the above.....


----------



## Jonathan S

monster said:


> I'm in the midst of ripping down planks of tulip wood and milling them to size for the doors, drawer fronts and end panels.
> I'll use a profile scribing cutter in the router table to machine up the rails and stiles and I'll hang the doors with butt hinges.
> I have a question for the experienced! - What is the best way to ensure I finish up with good fitting doors - is it to make them slightly oversize and then plane to fit?



I make mine 1 mm undersize then plane to fit.

Would be interested as to what gap other leave before paint.

I used to leave 1.5mm....got moaned at as too tight..... with spraying and two coats of hand paint it would sometimes bind.
The last one I did I left 3mm before paint which left a bigger gap than I personally would like, but everyone else though the bigger gap looked much better.


----------



## monster

Thanks for that Clogs and Jonathan - I’ll take your advice and not try and fit them straight off the bat!


----------



## monster

I’ve just taken a pic this morning of the pantry, I’ve used the same stone as a countertop within it and you can see the two pockets either side of the centre section that will take the doors.


----------



## Doug71

It's all looking great, keep up the good work, if you are making the doors it must feel like you are on the home straight


----------



## monster

Definitely feels like the home straight Doug  after doors, just the skirting / kick panels, painting and drawer infills cutlery trays etc.


----------



## Jar944

monster said:


> I'm in the midst of ripping down planks of tulip wood and milling them to size for the doors, drawer fronts and end panels.
> I'll use a profile scribing cutter in the router table to machine up the rails and stiles and I'll hang the doors with butt hinges.
> I have a question for the experienced! - What is the best way to ensure I finish up with good fitting doors - is it to make them slightly oversize and then plane to fit?



Make them oversized (I usually go 2 to 3mm over the opening) then cut/plane to fit. A lot of commercial shops will oversize, square and edge sand to fit.


----------



## monster

Cheers Jar - Makes sense!

What size gap for a finished fit should I be aiming for - bearing in mind I'll be adding paint to the doors?


----------



## Jar944

monster said:


> Cheers Jar - Makes sense!
> 
> What size gap for a finished fit should I be aiming for - bearing in mind I'll be adding paint to the doors?


 I fit them with a 2mm gap


----------



## Doug71

I normally make up the frames then the doors and fit the doors while I can do it all on the bench but a bit late for that now!

I make the doors so they just slip in then plane to fit, about 1.5 mm all round.

If you make them say 3mm oversize and are aiming for 1.5mm clearance all around (3mm in total) you end up having to take 6mm off which always seems like a waste of time, energy and wood.

As long as you are accurate, which it looks like you are I wouldn't make them too oversize.


----------



## monster

Cheers Doug - Ive just made the first one today as a bit of a trial - its actually an end panel I made - I aimed to make it the exact size of the aperture and its come out pretty much that - so I just needed to plane a touch off all round.


----------



## Benchwayze

You don't NEED a Domino to join kitchen cabinets. They will be held together also by the walls and adjacent cabinets. So you can use screws and rebated corner joints. You can use pocket hole joinery. You can use a biscuit joiner. You can even use nails and glue. Spend your cash on quality materials. 

By all means get a Domino; but when you need rather than want! HTH

John


----------



## LBCarpentry

monster said:


> I'm in the midst of ripping down planks of tulip wood and milling them to size for the doors, drawer fronts and end panels.
> I'll use a profile scribing cutter in the router table to machine up the rails and stiles and I'll hang the doors with butt hinges.
> I have a question for the experienced! - What is the best way to ensure I finish up with good fitting doors - is it to make them slightly oversize and then plane to fit?


Make the doors so they sit tight in the opening. Then take a sharp pencil, 1.5 - 2mm spacer and scribe the doors to the framework. Cut to the line and hey presto - perfectly fitted


----------



## doctor Bob

I make mine to the hole size, square them up a bit, hang them and shoot in on a sander.
I only ever fit them with one screw in door and frame, fitters can then adjust them (in / out) on site if necessary.


----------



## monster

Nice one guys - I like the scribing in idea, that will take into account if any of my frames are slightly out.

The other question I have yet resolved is where to mount the butt hinges - I see on many kitchens that they are let only into the door and are surface mounted on the cabinet frame - is this purely for ease of fitting - or is there another reason?

What do folk recommend?


----------



## Jar944

LBCarpentry said:


> Make the doors so they sit tight in the opening. Then take a sharp pencil, 1.5 - 2mm spacer and scribe the doors to the framework. Cut to the line and hey presto - perfectly fitted



So I do a similar thing, where cut them to fit tight to the opening, then take 2mm off each side for clearance.

Fit tight to the opening 




Then I machining 2mm off each edge.


----------



## stimpy

Just read the whole thread. Bloody brilliant work mate - looks spot on! Always seems such a shame to paint after all that hard work


----------



## sammy.se

Jar944 said:


> So I do a similar thing, where cut them to fit tight to the opening, then take 2mm off each side for clearance.
> 
> Fit tight to the opening
> View attachment 97420
> 
> Then I machining 2mm off each edge.




Those mouldings on the inside of the rails and stiles look nice - did you make or buy them? which router bit did you use?
I recently bought some, but I'd much rather buy a router bit on recommendation.


----------



## sammy.se

monster said:


> Nice one guys - I like the scribing in idea, that will take into account if any of my frames are slightly out.
> 
> The other question I have yet resolved is where to mount the butt hinges - I see on many kitchens that they are let only into the door and are surface mounted on the cabinet frame - is this purely for ease of fitting - or is there another reason?
> 
> What do folk recommend?



I recently considered this question as well, and settled on letting the hinges in the door only and not the frame. Here is the thread: Insetting a cabinet door by 3mm using a butt hinge

and here are some pics of the hinges during WIP:


----------



## Jar944

sammy.se said:


> Those mouldings on the inside of the rails and stiles look nice - did you make or buy them? which router bit did you use?
> I recently bought some, but I'd much rather buy a router bit on recommendation.



They are integral to the doors (29mm). Run with corrugated knives on a spindle moulder. However its a relatively standard bead and cove shape.


----------



## monster

Thanks Stimpy. Sammy those doors look smart and the hinge pins look good where you have paced them - unless you could get them to line up perfectly with the bead - its probably best to leave the frame alone or else it may look a bit awkward.

Jar - thats professional kit you have there! - Ive been playing with a similar profile on my little router table lol - its the one on the left in my mockup image and is the one I've decided (or the wife has) to use for my doors too.


----------



## stimpy

I'm with your missus - not literally!! hehe - one on the left just has a wee bit more interest


----------



## doctor Bob

Personnally my favourite profile is a shaker door with a chamfer on the top and bottom rail. Less of a dirt trap and pretty timeless in kitchens.


----------



## sammy.se

doctor Bob said:


> Personnally my favourite profile is a shaker door with a chamfer on the top and bottom rail. Less of a dirt trap and pretty timeless in kitchens.


Is the whole rail chamfered, or stopped? I don't suppose you have a picture do you?


----------



## doctor Bob

The whole rail.


----------



## monster

stimpy said:


> I'm with your missus - not literally!! hehe - one on the left just has a wee bit more interest


----------



## monster

doctor Bob said:


> Personnally my favourite profile is a shaker door with a chamfer on the top and bottom rail. Less of a dirt trap and pretty timeless in kitchens.


Yes that was my arguments against the more detailed one - harder to keep clean and more vulnerable to damage. Your cabinets look really smart and well modelled by the dogs!


----------



## Jar944

monster said:


> Thanks Stimpy. Sammy those doors look smart and the hinge pins look good where you have paced them - unless you could get them to line up perfectly with the bead - its probably best to leave the frame alone or else it may look a bit awkward.
> 
> Jar - thats professional kit you have there! - Ive been playing with a similar profile on my little router table lol - its the one on the left in my mockup image and is the one I've decided (or the wife has) to use for my doors too.



I personally prefer a more ornate and deeper profile like you (or your wife  ) chose for cabinet doors. The bead and cove is my go-to.


----------



## monster

So got the end panels made and fitted. I made them to the size of the aperture and then skimmed them with the track saw and finished off by hand with plane and left a 1mm gap all around. Onto the doors now.


----------



## monster

Timber machined up for a batch of doors.


----------



## monster

So I’ve made all the doors and drawer fronts. Fitted some off the doors so far, used Simonswerk brass butt hinges which I’m impressed with. I played around a bit a decided to let them into the doors only. I made a simple jig up to enable me to accurately rout the door stiles.

I’ve also made up some doorstops out of 15mm oak dowel with a hole drilled eccentrically so that I can rotate it to position it perfectly. Fitted one top and one bottom per door. hinges.


----------



## doctor Bob

Why the stops?
Are you not using mag catch of some sort, I think you will find it super annoying if you don't.
Sorry but not a fan of them, design wise.
Use a top notch mag catch or put a hidden mag catch in the frame and door.

I'm impressed with the rest, I hope my opinion of the stops is taken the right way and ignored completely if the design pleases you.


----------



## monster

Hi Bob, I'm going to use magnets let into the frame and the door, so I will need a hard stop for the door to register against. I came across the method on one of Oliver's from Bradshaw Joinery Youtube clips whilst searching for something a bit slicker than the normal catches - I think he posts on here - so a big thanks to him for the idea (he's done some great videos where he explains things really well - a talented chap.)

Here is the video with him explaining it - if you scroll to the end and watch the closing action in a finished cabinet he's made, its impressive.


----------



## doctor Bob

I used to do similar. Same magnets, one dilled into frame one in door, very slightly off set.
As a commercial enterprise I realised it was costing me a fortune in labour.
I now use a really slick mag catch which looks great, costs a lot, but saves a lot of labour.

It's your kitchen, not mine. Your opinion counts not mine.


----------



## Jonathan S

A bit of both here, Hafele mag on Beach stops......and another De Nimes kitchen.....


----------



## doctor Bob

I use these, with our name on them


----------



## monster

doctor Bob said:


> I used to do similar. Same magnets, one dilled into frame one in door, very slightly off set.
> As a commercial enterprise I realised it was costing me a fortune in labour.
> I now use a really slick mag catch which looks great, costs a lot, but saves a lot of labour.
> 
> It's your kitchen, not mine. Your opinion counts not mine.



Yes I can imagine its time consuming in your position when operating commercially and you have to look at the economics of all you do - you'd be horrified if you knew how long it takes me to do each part of this build lol!. Its just a one off for me though so I don't mind a bit of extra time.

When you used to do similar, what did you used to stop the door against?


----------



## monster

They look nice Bob, do they make much noise when the door closes agains them?


----------



## doctor Bob

Vertually nothing if you get them with a leather pad on the plate.


----------



## Jonathan S

Bob, what kg pull do you use? the Hafele one's I've been using are 6 kg and I could do with less pull.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jonathan S said:


> Bob, what kg pull do you use? the Hafele one's I've been using are 6 kg and I could do with less pull.


2kg or 5kg or 8kg, I mainly use 2kg
Jon I stopped using the Hafele ones you posted up due to too many shattered magnets within a year of installation.
These one's are bulletproof and in my opinion "classier".


----------



## monster

My cabinets are pretty air tight so I’ve got a fair bit of positive air pressure when I attempt to close the doors - any thoughts? - or is it just a case of drilling a hole somewhere?


----------



## monster

Managed to get all the doors and drawer fronts fitted, next job is a the plinth and then it’s painting.


----------



## monster

Finished cabinets now by adding some detail around the bottom of them. Ready for painting now.


----------



## Jameshow

No idea... But fastastic work! 

Cheers James


----------



## Doug71

They look fantastic, you must be well chuffed  

The painting would take me as long as making the cabinets


----------



## sammy.se

Amazing work - very impressive!

Tell us about your planned painting process? 
Primers, topcoat, tools etc


----------



## Droogs

Very nice work Monster. Almost seems a pity to pain it lol


----------



## monster

Cheers guys, Yeah not looking forward to painting - tedious process!

It does seem a shame to paint in some respects - but then Ive used a paint grade timber in tulipwood, and it there is a lot dissimilarity within it so I think painting is the right thing to do.

I'll use acrylic paints, two coats primer and two coats eggshell - Misses wants an off white, so will go with that.

I'm going to tile the cooker backsplash first - anything to put off the painting


----------



## jimmy_s

Lovely work Monster, well done!


----------



## doctor Bob

looks great.


----------



## prh

monster said:


> Ok, I'm ready to start this project now and am in the midst of drawing up the carcasses which against better advice I want to have a go at making myself. I'm pretty sure I'm going to use a quality MFC like Egger - although Im struggling to find a local supplier (Bournemouth) and it would be nice to have it cut to size first.
> 
> So I'm looking at other kitchen carcasses for inspiration as I design my own and I'm wondering why all the sides are secured into the edge of the bottom panel rather than sitting on top of it? With all the weight from a heavy worktop coming down these sides, surely it's better to put that load onto the base panel than onto whatever fixing system is used to secure the sides to the base...? Can anyone help me understand why this seems to be the standard method?
> 
> Also, what are peoples thoughts on what the carcasses should sit on - Hafele type plastic kick board legs or should I make up a ladder frame to drop the carcasses onto...?


If you’re in Bournemouth then give James a ring at BH Kitchens, Fancy Road. He should be able to supply you with good quality sheet materials (try Hidrofugo Mdf)


----------



## Spectric

Hi Monster, how did you produce those curved pieces coming from the corners, was it a router / template job ?


----------



## Spectric

Whats Hidrofugo Mdf like compared to other moisture resistant types of MDF, are they all just the same but different brands? This is their product listing:


----------



## monster

prh said:


> If you’re in Bournemouth then give James a ring at BH Kitchens, Fancy Road. He should be able to supply you with good quality sheet materials (try Hidrofugo Mdf)


Cheers prh, not heard of them, but good to know for the future.


----------



## monster

Spectric said:


> Hi Monster, how did you produce those curved pieces coming from the corners, was it a router / template job ?


If you mean the curved bits coming up from the floor Roy, i cut them out on the band saw and then dominoed them to the horizontal they are attached to which has a rebate along its back edge and a detail cut along its front edge, both of those done on the router table.


----------



## Spectric

So you cut each one on the bandsaw and no batch process?


----------



## monster

Spectric said:


> So you cut each one on the bandsaw and no batch process?


Yes thats correct, made a little template up first and drew around that on each blank and just free hand cut them out on a little bandsaw, only took a few minutes for each one and then a touch with a bit of sand paper and they came up well


----------



## monster

Been laying out the cooker backsplash today, misses chose these arabesque marble tiles which are very nice - I think they are water jet cut. I’ve done most of the cuts today and mitred the border, I’ve also used a brass trim around the border which sets it off really well. I’m one piece of border short though


----------



## monster

I don't know if you can notice it in the pics, but I also fitted a length of timber a few inches further under the cabinet and painted it black so it looks like there is nothing there it actually looks like a shadow and I'm quite pleased with the way its worked out as nothing can go under the cabinets now and yet it still gives the effect of being open.


----------



## monster

Just to close off this thread, I thought I’d post up some finished pics now that I’ve painted the cabinets and finished everything off.


----------



## monster

Misses also got me to make all the draw dividers and cupboard doors racks and a wine cooler cabinet next to fridge. 

Thanks to everyone on here who helped me along the way and answered my questions and gave me ideas. I’ve learnt a lot throughout the process and fully enjoyed it, it also helped to swell my tool collection!!


----------



## Doug71

That looks amazing, absolutely fantastic job. It will bring you so much pleasure and you made it yourself, great feeling 

Dare I ask do you have any idea how many hours you put in to it?

Anyway crack on, I'm looking forward to the Accoya sash window build thread


----------



## monster

Thanks Doug, I really don't know how many hours in total it took me - but certainly an awful lot longer than it would have taken in a professional.


----------



## doctor Bob

Looks great


----------



## Spectric

sammy.se said:


> I don't think I should have read that... It's a very good way to justify buying a domino...


The cost may not end there, people say it is a precise tool but it is no good making a precise hole unless it is accurately placed and you may well need one of these to keep alignment accurate unless you are willing to accept making the holes sloppy(oversized) for which a setting is provided. Having tried on the right fit to get good alignment it can happen, but as I found it is not guaranteed no mater how precise you think your marks are in line and really anoying when you find something will not align or close during glueup. I am now trying one of these.









(NEW) Domino Alignment Jig XL System Deluxe; (900 LONG PLATE) - FC Tools


Domino Alignment Jig System Deluxe - take Domino to the next level with this system which ensures easy installment when making any cabinet.




fctools.co.uk


----------



## monster

Thanks Bob.

Spectric, remember though that the sloppy setting is only sloppy in one plane!
The key is to just use the tight settlings once in each axis to provide the datum and then use the loose settings for the remainder.


----------



## Spectric

I agree it is only sloppy in one plane but it is still sloppy. The sloppy setting is actually a Festool answer to a problem, so if they had addressed the problem and not just circumnavigated it then they would have something to boost about at the cost of the aftermarket providers of solutions.

The one thing I have gained is a real appreciation of just how good the Dowelmax is straight out of the box, yes it is slower and glueup more tedious but it leaves the Domino in it's wake when it comes to accuracy. When I first got it I run two rows of fifteen dowels 45mm deep on a length of pine just to see if it was as accurate as claimed and the two workpieces came together and fully closed, no alignment issues at all. Using the principle shown below. My 700 Domino can now do this on sheet goods using the DAJ from FC tools but not on say 40mm.


----------



## rafezetter

WOW Monster, those look absolute quality - sure it took a long time, but think of the money you saved, I'd be interested to know what Doctor Bob would have priced this worts of work at, and as you say the learning that came with it is invaluable


----------



## monster

Thanks Rafezetter, I appreciate your comments.

Spectric, I’m afraid I can’t compare to the dowelmax as I’ve never used one.

I would however like to gently suggest that maybe you are missing the point with the domino in as much as I don’t think it matters that every single mortice is precisely positioned in each plane. It only matters that one mortice on each plane is accurately positioned on the tight setting, the rest can then be machined in a looser setting precisely so that any positioning inaccuracies don’t matter.

I’ve used the domino to make all my carcasses and also to hold the face frames together and also to fix the face frames to the caracasess and I never experienced any of the difficulties you have mentioned and whatever I have affixed to each other has lined up perfectly, which is why I am suggesting it’s your approach that may be the issue rather than the tool itself.

The only time i did have an issue was when I forgot to machine a mortice on one of the parts and then tried to assemble and wondered why it wouldn’t go together! Doh!


----------



## baldkev

I just read the thread! Monster, that is very professional looking. 
I actually feel inspired to make my kitchen when we replace it! Although due to time i will most likely buy the cabinets, then make frames, doors, end panels etc. 

Very good work


----------



## Spectric

monster said:


> I would however like to gently suggest that maybe you are missing the point with the domino in as much as I don’t think it matters that every single mortice is precisely positioned in each plane. It only matters that one mortice on each plane is accurately positioned on the tight setting, the rest can then be machined in a looser setting precisely so that any positioning inaccuracies don’t matter.


This is similar to the discusion I had with Frank at FC tools, if this was the case then there would be no market for the Domino alignment jig but a lot of people do not like the Festool solution to get round their alignment issue and want precise positioning of the holes. In this price bracket it is only accepted because Festool owns the patent and hence the market, otherwise they would have developed the tool further by now to remain competative. Woodpecker also do a nice alignment jig.

The Dowelmax out of the box can place 10mm dowel holes precisely, they are all tight and the joints fully close, I have done long lines of patterns of eight groups of three dowels and never any alignment issues. Problem for me is it can be slow drilling the holes and a lot more rushing around to get them inserted during glueup, what made me finaly look at alternatives was after making a single oven unit from 86mm by 48mm and used 96 dowels in all, luckily the beech dowels are only £8 for 100.


----------



## Rorton

Just read the whole thread in one - excellent work and a brilliant outcome, looks fantastic.


----------

