# a stanley no 4 smoothing plane as my first plane



## J_SAMa (5 Nov 2012)

hi
i do not own a single plane yet and im thinking about buying a (very popular) no 4 smoothing plane. im planning on getting a stanley one and there seems to be 3 options:
1: antique stanley plane
2: stanley sw range "premium" plane
3: a new, industrial stanley 

antique stanley might to be the best option here. i can find one originally purchased in the 1910s where i live. its quite expensive (lower limit for bidding is 70 euros). the biggest concern i have with this is that i dont believe anyone would sell something 100 years old (at least i wouldnt), so im not sure if the seller is completely credible...
i can as well opt for one from the *1960s*. will this one be as good as the one from the 1910s? its much cheaper too...

the stanley sweetheart models are certainly better than the other new models, but are they worth the money? reviews seem to contrast and i cant decide which one to believe.

well obviously, the new stanley is the cheapest option. again, im only a beginner who has never used a plane or even seen anyone using one before, so this could be the "safest option". maybe i could just use this one for a while, and buy a better one when im more confident with my skills. 
also is there a big room of improvement for the new stanley? maybe buying a new stanley and replace the blade with a better one (from veritas or ln or something) is also a good option.


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## GazPal (5 Nov 2012)

The new sweet heart Stanley #4's are worth the money and are nicely thought out pieces of kit, but can prove a little fiddly to set up, adjust and use until you become familiar with their workings. For ease of use, I'd err on the side of typical Bailey planes such as older Stanley/Record #4/04's, as their less complex adjusters are easier to use, e.g. You don't need to loosen the lever cap in order to adjust cutter depth or lateral position.

Personal preferences vary greatly, but I prefer Record hand planes produced throughout the 1930's/40's and early 50's. In terms of Stanley planes I'm not as familiar with their offerings and type system, but they did produce some excellent planes during the earlier part of the 20th century (Typically USA made).

If you'd lived closer I could have let you have a Record #04 and #05 for free and to get you started, but I think postage to Germany could possibly be more costly than the items themselves.


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## AndyT (5 Nov 2012)

If I were you, I'd buy the secondhand 1960s one. It will probably have had a lot less use, but will still have been properly made, in Sheffield. Perfectly respectable no 4s of that age seem to be £15 - £30 inc postage on ebay and are a great bargain.

I have a wide choice of planes but often reach for my 1970s Stanley no 4 that I bought new, even though it has plastic handles.


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## marcus (5 Nov 2012)

New industrial Stanley - don't go there!

I would also advise getting an older second hand one. Like Gary I prefer the Records. See if you can have a play with both, though either will do you fine if the sole is flat....


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## jimi43 (5 Nov 2012)

Hi and welcome!

I have had quite a few No.4 pass through my hands and I would say without doubt that the oldest one I have is the very best.







Regulars around here are probably sick of seeing this plane but you have to admit...the lines are gorgeous...






It dates from around the time you mention...early 20s...and the old simple iron on it is superb..






That's what I would opt for but I wouldn't be starting bidding at 70 Euros! But I guess it's supply and demand and even at that price it is relatively good value if it works as well as mine!

Cheers

Jim


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## ac445ab (5 Nov 2012)

Hi,  
I bought many pre-WWII era planes on ebay USA or UK. The offer for 4s is very wide. If you can wait for the right bargain could do an attempt there. 

Look at this, it starts from £5 (you need to ask the seller for shipping outside UK)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vintage-stanl ... 3f1eb2dfef

Ciao
Giuliano


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## baldpate (5 Nov 2012)

I agree with AndyT. You say this is your first plane. Unless you are prepared to spend big, big money to buy a new plane which is virtually guaranteed to perform almost perfectly 'out of the box' (and the new 'sweethearts' aren't in this class, from what I've read) then you would do better to buy a modestly-priced second-hand plane and get to understand how it works and how to make it perform well. 

The knowledge you gain from hands-on experience of tuning and using your work-a-day plane will serve you well if and when you want to up your game in the future - and it won't have cost you a fortune in euros !

Like Andy, the No 4 plane I most often reach for is a Stanley (composite/plastic handles, owned new from the 1980s, or maybe late 70s), which, after some work, seems surprisingly to perform better than a 1950s Record No 4. I have yet to work out quite why this should be so, but I'm sure I shall eventually - and in the process I will add to my understanding of how planes work.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Nov 2012)

If you've only one, I would consider a 4 1/2.


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## Dangermouse (6 Nov 2012)

If I were only going to have just one plane it would be a no 5, much more versatile that a no4 and can be used for roughing and smoothing, if you have two blades set up for each job. My preference would be for a Stanley made before 1950 or a Record made before 1960. Both are excellent planes. Maybe the Record a tad better. I'd leave any of the newer stuff alone, unless you want to spend a week or two getting it to plane correctly. but the planes from 1970's onward are just a load of rubbish, skip fodder. As to the new Stanley premium planes, I've heard good and very bad reviews, but having never used one I cant say myself. If you were considering getting a new good quality plane at a good price, then the Quangsheng no 4 or 5 are very very good.

link to workshop heaven http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Qua ... lanes.html


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## condeesteso (6 Nov 2012)

Not getting into the pros of a 4 v 4&1/2 v 5 etc - but I do think Record is worth a mention too - the old Sheffield ones (around 50s - 70s). But the American Stanleys of the period you mention are really excellent I think - I have about 6 of them and I honestly use them more than the 5 Lie Nielsens I have! Note the one Jim shows is American, and early too (v early 20th C ?, low knob is a clue). But I had a Sheffield No 4 a while ago and it was pretty good. I read somewhere that the earliest UK Stanleys (about 1936 on) were largely made of US parts shipped over anyway. 
One way or another, I think you can bag a fine No 4 for £20 max - and personally I agree, tuning it is not hard and really helps understand what makes it work well.


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## J_SAMa (6 Nov 2012)

GazPal":ummgxtbr said:


> The new sweet heart Stanley #4's are worth the money and are nicely thought out pieces of kit, but can prove a little fiddly to set up, adjust and use until you become familiar with their workings. For ease of use, I'd err on the side of typical Bailey planes such as older Stanley/Record #4/04's, as their less complex adjusters are easier to use, e.g. You don't need to loosen the lever cap in order to adjust cutter depth or lateral position.
> 
> Personal preferences vary greatly, but I prefer Record hand planes produced throughout the 1930's/40's and early 50's. In terms of Stanley planes I'm not as familiar with their offerings and type system, but they did produce some excellent planes during the earlier part of the 20th century (Typically USA made).
> 
> If you'd lived closer I could have let you have a Record #04 and #05 for free and to get you started, but I think postage to Germany could possibly be more costly than the items themselves.



what do you think about this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-STANL ... 671&_uhb=1
i cant find any cheap stanley or record planes from early 20th century, and i think anything made prior to 1970 should be good enough for me 

and about the record 04 and 05 you mentioned, well actually im willing to buy one of them off you and pay the postage fee... i live in holland now, not germany (need to change my location now  ), so royal mail's world parcelforce delivery shouldnt cost more than 30 gbp.


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## condeesteso (6 Nov 2012)

Had a look... not that one, way too much and not good vintage. Bite Gazpal's arm off... I mean say yes and thank you.!!! (and pay post, you will still be on a winner, GP knows his planes).


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## GazPal (7 Nov 2012)

J_SAMa":1aoqo8t3 said:


> GazPal":1aoqo8t3 said:
> 
> 
> > The new sweet heart Stanley #4's are worth the money and are nicely thought out pieces of kit, but can prove a little fiddly to set up, adjust and use until you become familiar with their workings. For ease of use, I'd err on the side of typical Bailey planes such as older Stanley/Record #4/04's, as their less complex adjusters are easier to use, e.g. You don't need to loosen the lever cap in order to adjust cutter depth or lateral position.
> ...



Early C20th Stanleys often tend to be much lighter than later ones from the sweetheart era and onwards. Such older planes are very nice users, but I think they beefed up their castings by quite a margin, which may or may not have been an attempt to compete with the heft of planes enjoyed by infill (Plane) users.

I've no problem letting you have them if it'll help you start and enjoy your journey into woodworking.  I'll ensure each plane is set up correctly prior to shipping them to you, but will first check postage costs and hope it's not too expensive. As long as postage is below your limit I'll send whatever will suit your needs. Just let me know by PM if this sounds ok to you and we can take things from there :wink:


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## Dovetaildave (8 Nov 2012)

My first plane was a record 4 1/2, 1980s beech handles, standard blade n chipbreaker.

I have quite a few planes now (Bailys 3-8 plus specials) but the whole learing to tune it/fettling and make it sing was a special and even sometimes frustrating time for me, I even polished the base on 400 wet n dry paper :lol: 

I have a sentimental attachment to this plane, got me through my first few building sites as an "improver" carpenter, the Ostioarthritus is hurting my fingers these days, when the time comes I hope it will be the one producing my last shaving.


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## GazPal (9 Nov 2012)

Dovetaildave":3hf5tjp1 said:


> the Ostioarthritus is hurting my fingers these days, when the time comes I hope it will be the one producing my last shaving.




I know the feeling all too well since having to retire prematurely due to the way rheumatoid arthritis has affected my hands and most of my other joints. I've a Record 04 I was gifted by my woodwork teacher after passing my Woodwork O level back in the early 70's and it'll doubtless be the last one I use when the time comes for me to lay my toolkit to rest or pass it on to someone who'll gain as much as I have from them.


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## estonianwoodworker (4 Aug 2016)

Hi!

I'll be visiting the UK from Estonia in a couple of weeks and would like to try to pick up a quality Stanley no 4 from eBay. There are hundreds on eBay available used in the UK - [ I can't add the URL here, but I searched 'Stanely no 4 plane' on ebay and filtered for used and UK - would anyone mind please help a beginner out suggesting a couple that seem decent? Following the great advice that was already shared in this thread many years ago...

Thank you!


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Aug 2016)

If it is your only first or only plane you'd do better to get a No.5 or (my choice) a No. 5 1/2.


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## marcus (4 Aug 2016)

"If it is your only first or only plane you'd do better to get a No.5 or (my choice) a No. 5 1/2."

Depending on the sort of woodworking you are going to be doing with it....


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## estonianwoodworker (4 Aug 2016)

Initially smaller / medium sized boxes and drawers - I want to be able to make a small night table with drawers. So a no 5. Any suggestions from eBay for specific ones? Or any other sources for second hand planes?


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Aug 2016)

marcus":1olq343h said:


> "If it is your only first or only plane you'd do better to get a No.5 or (my choice) a No. 5 1/2."
> 
> Depending on the sort of woodworking you are going to be doing with it....



Yes. You can do a lot more with a No.5 or No.5 1/2 than with a no.4. They cover more bases.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Aug 2016)

I believe the consensus is Record before before about 1980 and Stanley before about 1970. There's no point in going for 80 - 100 year or more old collectors pieces, aim somewhere in the middle. Wooden handles are a reasonable indication of some age - just avoid the new stuff - it's dire. Try to find a car boot sale or two while you're here, you can often pick them up for a fiver.


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## estonianwoodworker (4 Aug 2016)

Do these look usable? I imagine it is hard to tell from photos - what would you look at / for? Avoid?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUPERB-QUALIT ... SwtnpXo3YQ

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Record-No-5-V ... SwJqpXoZ8G

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Recor ... Sw2zlXhpoM


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## Racers (4 Aug 2016)

The older ones with the square shouldered blades are my favourites like this..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RECORD-No5-Ca ... SwtnpXlOhq

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RECORD-No5-Ca ... SwtnpXlOhq

Are you going to be any where Nottingham? I have a couple of Record No5s all ready to go.

Pete


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## ED65 (4 Aug 2016)

Yes it is hard to be sure how good a tool is from photos, especially if they're not pin-sharp and taken from every angle. Even with clear photographs some flaws may not show up, like very fine cracks which can easily be seen in the flesh can often disappear in a photograph. For example there's a small crack on the right cheek here just by the front rib, completely invisible in the photo as you can see.

Visiting a car boot sale or two would be a great idea if you can manage it. Another option worth considering if you'll have transport while in the UK is Gumtree. You'd collect the piece in person so no postage to pay on top of the auction price and prices are usually much better to begin with. Not quite as low as you'd generally find at a car boot sale but like at a car boot you can examine something before handing over any money, looking at all the important areas like the front of the mouth and the leading edge of the cap iron, and generally checking to see if everything moves that should move and all the bits that shouldn't move don't.


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## Benchwayze (4 Aug 2016)

Try 

http://www.oldtools.co.uk

You will pay a fair price, and The vendors describe their tools as honestly as possible. I have dealt with them quite a lot, and they don't sell rubbish. I recommend them. 

Plus; there's no bidding to worry about and no disappointment over losing a good tool for the sake of a few pence. 

Once you add to your basket the tool is yours. 

The choice is yours. Best of luck. 

John


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## estonianwoodworker (4 Aug 2016)

Thank you everyone - really appreciate your helpful advice. 

I sure would prefer to avoid the uncertainty and stress of eBay bidding - thanks John - though looks like http://www.oldtools.co.uk is on holidays. Banner on the top of the page says: "Staff holiday. Store currently closed.". I'll check again, and hopefully they reopen before I go. 

ED65 - any tips for car boot sales in London area / easy to get to from London where I might discover some planes?

Thanks!


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## AndyT (4 Aug 2016)

If you want to look at old tool dealers, rather than using eBay, there's a pretty comprehensive list of them here

http://taths.org.uk/tools-trades/notes- ... ealers-etc


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## Vann (5 Aug 2016)

Racers":2hy0tcdf said:


> The older ones with the square shouldered blades are my favourites like this..
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RECORD-No5-Ca ... SwtnpXlOhq
> 
> ...


I'm with Pete. These two look good (assuming no hidden defects), but if you're going near Nottingham, Pete's offer will be ever better, and you get a chance to try them as well.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Benchwayze (5 Aug 2016)

My first plane was a Stanley No. 4. I soon got myself a 5-1/2 for the long planing jobs. And I now prefer Record, for some reason. I think it's the blue that does it for me, plus the two piece chip breaker! :mrgreen: 

If you are anywhere near the West Midlands, I have at least one 5-1/2 that would go for a charity donation. 

Regards
John


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