# Diamond stones - advice required



## Aled Dafis (27 Apr 2006)

Hi all 

As the title suggests I'd like some advice regarding diamond sharpening stones. 

Before some of you suggest Jap waterstones, I've tried them and decided that they're not for me as I only have a small workshop and only one bench which means clearing the bench in order to sharpen and avoid getting all of that dirty slurry and water over my work - it seems to get everywhere, yuk!!. :evil: 

Before I talk about the options I've come up with, I should add that I hollow grind chisels and plane irons using a hand grinder before honing, so removing lots of material isn't an issue 

I've been considering diamond stones for a while and have decided that my budget is around £80. The options I'm considering are a Trend 7 1/2" x 2 1/2" double sided stone (coarse/fine) or two eze-lap 11 1/2" x 2 1/2" (possibly Fine and Extra fine); both options are the same price. 

My quandary lies in that the trend have superior quality diamonds, but is smaller and that the fine side is still possibly too coarse for that super duper edge tat you all talk about. On the other hand the coarse side would be useful for flattening the backs of blades quickly. 

On the other hand the Eze-Lap stones are longer (which would work more efficiently with my Veritas Mk2 honing guide) but are of an inferior quality. The extra fine option would (should) however give me a better edge. 

Any comments would be useful as I've been mulling this over in my head for a while and just cannot make my mind up.

Sorry for such a long post :roll:


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## Alf (27 Apr 2006)

Aled Dafis":3s2yxaqx said:


> Before some of you suggest Jap waterstones


Heaven forbid! 



Aled Dafis":3s2yxaqx said:


> Before I talk about the options I've come up with, I should add that I hollow grind chisels and plane irons using a hand grinder before honing


Hey, so do I, so we're on the same page. 

First up I have no experience of either the Trend or Eze-Lap, although I get the impression the Trend is very well thought of; I use a coarse/fine DMT. My feeling is you'll never get a really fine edge from a diamond "stone" anyway, so don't bother trying. Mind you, that doesn't mean that for less demanding edges it wouldn't be fine, depends how keen you are on super-sharp edges for everything really. My own preference veers between finishing with a fine natural oilstone or a fine micron diamond paste. Neither are without mess but on balance I find the oilstone slightly less of a nightmare in that regard. But the paste is quicker on these godawful A2 blades. 

On balance I think I'd opt for the better quality diamonds of the Trend (a bit of practice and the MkII will cope with the smaller size okay) and scrape up/save up enough for some paste or an oilstone for the finer edge, maybe using fine abrasives "Scary Sharp" fashion in the meantime, if saving is required? But that's just me; put 15 woodworkers in a room and ask about sharpening and be prepared for 30 different answers - minimum. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Colin C (27 Apr 2006)

Hi Aled Dafis
I have used the Eze-Lap's for the last 7-8 years and still have my first one ( I use it in the workshop and I am a full time restorer)
What you will find is that they are a little course at first but do find they are fine after that ( if you have any backs to flatern, when you first get your stone would be a good time to do it )
I also know 4 friends that have had them for years also and if you want to get them for a good price try Tilgear, they do the fine of the size you want for £35 + vat and the super fine for £29.50 ( but its the 8"x3")
They number is 01707 873434 and free p+p for orders over £50.
Ps They also have some very good sales, as you might have guessed I use them myself.
Its a bit of an aladin's cave


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## Aled Dafis (27 Apr 2006)

Alf



> put 15 woodworkers in a room and ask about sharpening and be prepared for 30 different answers - minimum.



I was expecting a myriad of replies, they will probably give me more options than answers but hey, the more the merrier.

As regards the shorter length of the Trend Stone, would it be feasible to run the Veritas guide on a block of wood of equal thickness in front of the stone to maximise the usueable length? (dont think I've made myself clear here, but i hope you get the jist)

How much would a fine oilstone put me back (approx)?

Thanks
Aled


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## MikeW (27 Apr 2006)

Alf":13xsoisy said:


> Aled Dafis":13xsoisy said:
> 
> 
> > Before some of you suggest Jap waterstones
> ...


 :lol: :wink: 

Aled, you can use a piece of wood of the same height to enable using the stone more fully. I've done the same as an exploration into cambering with the MK.II--the wood was slight convex on its top. Point is, it worked as a means to have the roller sit on a separate surface.

If I were to make one, I probably would make a holder for the stone and the raised portion as a single unit. First, I suppose it would keep them together, but more importantly it would keep the stone from ever pushing away from the raised portion.

Take care, Mike
shaptons, no muss, no fusshttp://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sharp/index.html


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## Chris Knight (27 Apr 2006)

Aled,
It would be quite feasible to use a piece of wood to "extend" the Trend stone.

Good oilstones to be used for final sharpening are not cheap. The best modern ones can easily cost as much or more than diamond stones. However, you may be lucky and pick up a secondhand one at a boot sale or on Ebay. For you to be lucky, the seller has to be ignorant of its value which will likely mean that it looks absolutely horrible. However, stones are easily cleaned and can be flattened on a coarse diamond stone or with a suitably hard material.

My favoured sharpening process now uses a diamond stone, and a surgical black or translucent Arkansas oilstone as the last stone before lightly stropping the edge. The surgical black stone is a large one 3" by 10" and was a King's ransom. The translucent stone is 8" by 2" and was a reasonable £30 from Tilgear. I think I was very lucky with this stone, it is of excellent quality but they may have more like it. I have a couple of smaller black Arkansas stones from boot sales that are pretty good and also a couple of very nice slate slipstones that I use for carving tools. I have not seen a good large slate stone but I keep looking.


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## mudman (27 Apr 2006)

Chris,

Came across this the other day.
At that price, might be worth trying it out.
I have a slate bench stone that I picked up in the market for a quid. Has a few knocks but I like it and it gives a very good edge.


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## Alf (27 Apr 2006)

I may have a stone, in a fitted box, that might fit the bill - somehow it never made it to the For Sale list. Dunno what it it is, but pretty fine IIRC (I'd have to check) PM if interested. Definitely less than £30 :wink:

Trouble with all my oilstones is, except for a recent Washita, I've absolutely no idea what they are. :roll:

Cheers, Alf
Busily ignoring Mike


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## MikeW (27 Apr 2006)

> Cheers, Alf
> Busily ignoring Mike


Won't work... :lol: 

I have found that with natural stones sometimes the grading of them was really far off.

For instance, I have a stone of the "I have no idea what it is" category. It looks fairly coarse and one can actually catch the fingernail in its surface. Or rather, can definitely feel the porosity with the edge of the nail.

But it leaves a very nice usable finish on chisels at least comparable between a 2k-4k waterstone. While this is not as fine as I would take them when I have time to do a proper job, it is comparable to what I use to hone while I am working.

Take care, Mike


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## Anonymous (27 Apr 2006)

Aled

I have the Trend and the course side is not course enough to flatten backs in any reasonabole time at all. Arms would give up long before the thing is flat. 
However, the fine side does give a nice edge and is about the equivalent of a 1000 grit waterstone.

I use a course DMT for flattening and the Trend as an intermeidate beofre the 6000 grit waterstone.

Hope this helps


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## woodbloke (27 Apr 2006)

DMT's for me, coarse, fine and extra fine. The final edge is achieved by a few strops on some leather coated with jewellers rouge paste which is much finer stuff than normal stropping paste and gives an incredible edge. The back of plane blades (not chisels) are finished on the extra fine stone by placing a *very* thin steel rule down one edge of the stone, and polishing the back on the other side of the stone, thus only about two or three mil of the blade is touched. The very slight angle produced makes no effective difference and makes the sharpening process much quicker as you don't have to polish the whole of the back - Rob


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## Alf (27 Apr 2006)

We, too, have this strange technique of which you speak, effendi. In our tongue we call it "DC's Ruler Trick". A wise, bearded prophet from the East (well east of me, anyway) did come among us and fortell the polishing of the backs in timely manner. And low it came to pass for the enlightened converts that it was so. For the rest of the villanous dogs a life of drudgery and back polishing is too good for them and they're hardly fit to pick up our date stones.

Sharp edges go with you, Ali

Who in true mystic manner sometimes uses the Ruler Trick and other times makes like your actual villanous dog. Depends on my mood... :wink:


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## Shady (27 Apr 2006)

Poo to all of this nonsense: for repeatable, consistent quality, get waterstones of the appropriate grades, at the same price for all of them as _one_ coarse diamond stone... Buy a plant sprinkler bottle from your local garden centre, and produce edges that will polish hardwoods. I do it outside, washing the slurry down the garden drain, and thoroughly enjoy the process... :wink: 

You can never guarantee/change the flatness of a diamond stone - you just have to trust the manufacturer... It takes about 2 minutes to assure yourself of the flatness of your waterstone by abrading it. 

Precision, control, price - there is no comparison...

(sits back, waits for the blunt diamond stone users' knives to hit...)


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## Jake (27 Apr 2006)

Shady":janoy71c said:


> It takes about 2 minutes to assure yourself of the flatness of your waterstone by abrading it.



Shouldn't you be scraping it really, along the same lines as Bugbear advocates for plane soles?


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## woodbloke (27 Apr 2006)

You can never guarantee/change the flatness of a diamond stone - you just have to trust the manufacturer... It takes about 2 minutes to assure yourself of the flatness of your waterstone by abrading it. 

Precision, control, price - there is no comparison...

(sits back, waits for the blunt diamond stone users' knives to hit...)[/quote]

A couple of moments inattentiveness will produce waterstones that you * think* are flat but which are nowhere near; its only when you put a chisel back flattened on a jap stone onto a DMT stone do you realise that the abraded corners were caused by the supposedly flat waterstone - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (27 Apr 2006)

Aled,

I would suggest that the next time you are at a woodworking show, visit the Clico stand. Clico make the Clifton range of planes. Have a word with Mike Hudson and look at the finish he gets on his blades. That will give you an idea of what you should be aiming at.

Mike is quite relaxed about what stones to use but he finishes his blades on a leather strop with some polishing compound.

I think you will be impressed - and at least you will be able to see what to aim for.

Paul


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## Aled Dafis (28 Apr 2006)

Thanks for your replies.

As regards the use of slate as a honing medium, I would have thought that is was way too soft, and therefore would suffer the same wear as Japanese waterstones.

I might however just be naive in thinking that you're talking of standard machined slate as used for window sills and grave stones as opposed to a specific type of slate used for honing :? 

Please keep your thoughts coming.


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## Paul Chapman (28 Apr 2006)

Aled,

One more point about diamond stones. You said in your original post that you found water stones messy. Most of the manufacturers of diamond stones recommend that you use them with water. When I bought mine I found using water was very messy (lots of black gunge and the ever-present danger of rust on the stones, honing guide and blades) so I changed to using WD40 and have used it ever since. Some people don't like WD40 - if you don't like it you could try 3in1 oil instead. I find both work well and have no adverse affect on the diamond stones.

I use the DMT 8 inch polka dot stones in course, fine and extra fine. The extra fine won't give you a mirror finish which is why I am now experimenting with a leather strop and polishing compound to finish off.

Good luck with whatever you decide to go with :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (28 Apr 2006)

Ooo, good point, Paul, I'd forgotten that. I use paraffin fwiw (well lamp oil 'cos it's not smelly)

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (28 Apr 2006)

Barry,
Many thanks for that link - as you say at that price you can't really go too far wrong.


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## Aled Dafis (28 Apr 2006)

Only problem is that they charge £6 postage.

The other complete bu**er is that I called in there Last weekend on the way back from a wedding in North Wales and didn't see the stone. I probably would have bought it for the sake of £4 even before reading this thread.

Aled


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## Taffy Turner (3 May 2006)

I have the Trend dual sided diamond stone, and find that the fine side doesn't leave a polished finish. I have been scratching my head about how to get a finer finish without faffing about with water stones or diamond paste, and the I saw these in the Axminster catalogue 

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/13/product-Spyderco-Ceramic-Bench-Stone-20440.htm

The super fine one is supposed to be equivalent to 10,000 grit. 

Would this do the trick, or is the jump from 1200 to 10,000 grit too big to do in one step? 

Anyone else got one of these? Any comments / feedback much appreciated. 

Thanks 

Gary


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## Colin C (3 May 2006)

I have two ( medium and fine ) and I would go for the fine, as it is a little ruff at first ( not by much ) but it will soon lose that and you will have a nice stone  
Ps I would give Tilgear a ring as I think you will get them for a better price there


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## JesseM (3 May 2006)

Taffy Turner":10cjj4vf said:


> http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/13/product-Spyderco-Ceramic-Bench-Stone-20440.htm
> 
> The super fine one is supposed to be equivalent to 10,000 grit.
> 
> ...


I have one of the spyderco ultra or super fine stones. Its a really tough stone, however mine is not flat. I have tried to flatten, but even the diamond stone didn't do much. In fact I got the feeling its one of the things that lead to the early demise of my diamond stone.

The jump in grits is not too far but be prepared to spend longer at it.


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## gidon (3 May 2006)

Taffy Turner":2sf1jb02 said:


> I have been scratching my head about how to get a finer finish without faffing about with water stones or diamond paste ... <snip>



My current waterstone avoidance method is to go from a 1200 grit DMT duosharp to a 5 micron microfinishing film (I got from here). I then more often than not use some 0.5 micron film after that. All I do is cut out a strip of the film (which is much tougher than wet and dry paper), and lay it on the diamond stones - with adhesion given by whatever lubricant I happen to be using:







I have tried pretty much everything recently and this gives my an incredible edge very easily and very quickly. 

Cheers

Gidon


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## Alf (3 May 2006)

The Spyderco stones are not good - have a search of the archive and you should find something on them.

Gidon, I love the little cams for holding your DMTs.  

Cheers, Alf


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## gidon (3 May 2006)

Thanks Alf - glad you like them .
Cheers
Gidon


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## Shady (4 May 2006)

> My current waterstone avoidance method is to go from a 1200 grit DMT duosharp to a 5 micron microfinishing film (I got from here)



Gidon - try your local car repair/finishing people - I get the 3M 5 micron from mine whenever I need it - it appears to be a stock item for fine work..


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## Taffy Turner (5 May 2006)

Message received and understood on the Spyderco stones. 

Thanks everyone for the advice - saved me £50 there. 

I shall have to look into the scary sharp method in a bit more detail, as it would appear that is the way to go.

Regards 

Gary


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## gidon (5 May 2006)

Thanks Shady - will try that. Can you get the PSA backed stuff too?
Cheers
Gidon


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## ivan (10 May 2006)

Have a look at CSM Abrasives (UK) at www.abrasivesplus.com


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## gidon (10 May 2006)

Not sure if that was meant for me me Ivan - but CSM don't do the film at all, PSA or not. They do do paper backed micron paper but I didn't find that much good compared to the film. And not much cheaper IIRC - even factoring in shipping from the US!
Cheers
Gidon


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## Paul Chapman (13 May 2006)

Paul Chapman":2b7urwf3 said:


> I use the DMT 8 inch polka dot stones in course, fine and extra fine. The extra fine won't give you a mirror finish which is why I am now experimenting with a leather strop and polishing compound to finish off.



Just thought I would report back on my use of a leather strop and finishing compound.

I bought a piece of leather and some finishing compound (the blue one) from Clico at one of the recent shows. I glued together two pieces of 18mm MDF to provide a nice flat surface and glued the leather to this.

I now go from the extra fine (green) diamond stone to the leather strop and I have been amazed at how quickly that produces a mirror finish on my blades. It might be possible to get an even better finish with a finer polishing compound. Rob (woodbloke) said he uses jewellers rouge which might be better. However, I am more than pleased with the results I am now achieving 

Paul


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## Colin C (13 May 2006)

Paul
you could use a cream metal polish as well, I do.
Like auto-glem, I think its called


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## Paul Chapman (13 May 2006)

Thanks Colin. Is that the car polish, Auto Glym? If so, I've got some - I might try it.

Thanks  

Paul


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## Colin C (13 May 2006)

Thats it but when you have finished polishing get the sun glasses out


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## Paul Chapman (13 May 2006)

OK - thanks for the warning :wink: 

Paul


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## Handrubbed (13 May 2006)

As a new member of this forum, allow me to suggest an alternative view point regarding diamond honing stones. I have all of the grades of DMT diamond stones. My experience with them for purposes of honing fine woodworking tools has been less than satisfactory. 

First, I feel that diamond stones are too limited in their ability to provide a keen edge to justify their high cost. Diamond stones deliver a very unrefined edge even in the finest grit. Rough honing does not require an expensive stone. Hand woodworking tools will require a keener edge (up to 8000 grit) than diamond plates or stones (approx 1000 grit ) can deliver. I recommend graduated grades of sandpaper on a flat backing such as glass, granite or even MDF, or a set of waterstones.

Secondly, diamond stones quickly wear to much less aggressive cutting ability. If you use them to flatten other stones, they can literally be worn beyond usefulness. Water stones continuously expose new cutting particles and maintain their same cutting effectiveness clear to the end. Sandpaper is easily and cheaply replaced.

Third, diamond stones are notoriously un-flat and semi-flexible. Flatness is essential in honing of woodworking edges. Waterstone's flatness needs to be maintained, but at least can be brought to a state of flatness. Flatness in sandpaper sharpening is as good as the substrate to which it is attached; in other words, constant. 

For the above reasons, I would avoid the purchase of diamond stones as the primary method of maintaining woodworking hand tool cutting edges.


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## Colin C (13 May 2006)

Welcome to the forum Handrubbed
I agree with most of what you have said, diamond stones can be very expensive. This is one of the reasons that I will not but DMT ones, I get the eze-lap stones insted ( I still have my firsts one, bought about 7-8 years ago )

When it come to eze-lap stones there are on a 1/4 think steel plate so no flexible, with this I have a medium ceramic stone and some leather with the car polish.
This way I get a very good edge on all my tools as I also use a jig on all of the sharpening surfaces until sharp.

Where I get my stones is about 1/3 less than every where else and about half the price of the DMT's  
My medium 6"x2" stone cost me £22


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## Nick W (13 May 2006)

Colin C":wros5npv said:


> Where I get my stones is about 1/3 less than every where else and about half the price of the DMT's
> My medium 6"x2" stone cost me £22



Come on Colin, don't be a tease, share the information.


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## Colin C (13 May 2006)

But its so much fun  
I am not sur e I should tell you yet



Aw go on then is Tilgear :twisted:


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