# knife sharpening



## jaymar (13 Dec 2013)

I want to sharpen my kitchen knives . I know the best way is with a water stone but I have no skill at all with this method (at my age I have no inclination to put the time in to acquire such skill)
I have looked at various gadgets for sharpening , I even tried one machine and although it did give an edge it seemed a bit rough to me, I have seen a devise on ebay called a "Fixed angle sharpener which uses stones to rub over a knife and I wondered if anybody had any experience of this tool.

Thanks in anticipation
Alan


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

jaymar":3cwy4ni3 said:


> I want to sharpen my kitchen knives . I know the best way is with a water stone


No it isn't


> but I have no skill at all with this method (at my age I have no inclination to put the time in to acquire such skill)


Typical woodwork sharpening dilemma - wants to do it but, er, doesn't want to do it! Why bother if you are so reluctant?


> I have looked at various gadgets for sharpening , ...


The steel is first and foremost and any silly person can use one. Second is oil stone if you are really keen, but for ordinary kitchen purposes the steel will do all you need, indefinitely.

A cheap one will do but if you want to spend this could be good


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## paulm (13 Dec 2013)

These are cheap and effective and easy to use if your knives are everyday cheapies rather than anything exotic or special. http://www.amazon.co.uk/AnySharp-Global ... +sharpener

Works by the carbide cutters scraping away metal to create a sharp edge. Not a refined sharp edge and wouldn't use on more expensive knives, but has it's uses.

This is a bit more refined, takes more time to use though if your knives are very blunt to start with, but okay for frequent touch ups. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plus-3-Black-Re ... +sharpener

I tend to use a diamond "steel" and a fine ceramic "steel" mostly nowadays, fast, clean and easy, but the fancy knives still get sharpened on the waterstone, doesn't take that much skill really just a bit of time.

Cheers, Paul


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## bugbear (13 Dec 2013)

jaymar":1rdpqjm8 said:


> I want to sharpen my kitchen knives . I know the best way is with a water stone but I have no skill at all with this method (at my age I have no inclination to put the time in to acquire such skill)
> I have looked at various gadgets for sharpening , I even tried one machine and although it did give an edge it seemed a bit rough to me, I have seen a devise on ebay called a "Fixed angle sharpener which uses stones to rub over a knife and I wondered if anybody had any experience of this tool.
> 
> Thanks in anticipation
> Alan



That's the cheap knock offs of the "pro Edge", (which is a widely esteemed device).

And yours (if I may say so) is an excellent question:

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showt ... id/930087/

If you search further, you will find the same (loud) arguments between the jig users and the freehanders that woodworkers "enjoy" so much, over in the world of knife sharpening, so crash hat on.

BugBear


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## Graham Orm (13 Dec 2013)

bugbear":1ksf9ew0 said:


> jaymar":1ksf9ew0 said:
> 
> 
> > I want to sharpen my kitchen knives . I know the best way is with a water stone but I have no skill at all with this method (at my age I have no inclination to put the time in to acquire such skill)
> ...


By coincidence I watched this the other day, a visit to the edge pro manufacturers and a LOT of waffle about angles for knife sharpening. Worth a watch though. A good tutorial on how the thing works. Probably what Jaymar is looking for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liJKYgO_P3I This guy (Wranglerstar) Has a great channel on YouTube, his videos are better than a lot of TV shows.


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## Roxie (13 Dec 2013)

Alan
Know what you mean about using a steel, I can't get on with them. I bought a Wusthof (sorry haven't got a link) two stage knife sharpener and in my opinion they are the dogs dangly bits. You can re-sharpen with the coarse wheels and then hone with the ceramic wheels. It is so good I bought one for my daughter (a trained caterer who can't get on with a steel either) for Christmas, cost about £16.
Hope this helps 

John


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## jaymar (13 Dec 2013)

Jacob, water stone/ oil stone , the action is the same. A steel will not sharpen a blade ,only re-establish an edge, any fool can indeed use a steel, and ruin an edge at the same time. I know your disparaging remarks may make you feel superior but they don't help anyone else.
I realise the ebay offer is a knock off but "Edge Pro " doesn't seem to be available in the UK. The videos were very informative and I will look into the subject further.
Thanks Alan


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## Dee J (13 Dec 2013)

Our knives tend to get so blunt that, as my dear papa would say, "you could ride to market on them". At which point I wander down to the forge and give them a quick freehand grind on the old Heyden vertical shaft treadle grinder, followed by a lick of the oilstone. Then issue a warning to anyone in the house - just in case they weren't expecting knives that would actually cut....

Dee


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

jaymar":2eers19f said:


> Jacob, water stone/ oil stone , the action is the same. A steel will not sharpen a blade ,only re-establish an edge, any fool can indeed use a steel, and ruin an edge at the same time. I know your disparaging remarks may make you feel superior but they don't help anyone else......


My family have been using a steel for 3 generations on the same carving knife. It's very sharp. "Re-establishing an edge" is the same as "sharpening". Worn out a couple of steels perhaps. It's all you need and it's very easy.


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## jpt (13 Dec 2013)

Despite what others may say using a steel properly to give a sharp edge of a concistent angle is a skill that can take years to aquire, ask any butcher or chef.

I use one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/ceramic-knife-sharpener and it does a beautiful job just use every time you use the knife and you will have a scary sharp knife at all times.

john


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## Mark-numbers (13 Dec 2013)

Coming from a family of butchers I was taught how to use a steel from a young age - however it's a skill which not everyone has the inclination to learn.

Would this do the trick although dispatch times are a little ominous haha 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00G ... _i=3147491


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## Harbo (13 Dec 2013)

I have a genuine EdgePro Apex kit that I bought many years ago, very cheaply on the bay.
An excellent bit of kit which will sharpen all types of knives and small blades - the more expensive one will sharpen chisels and plane blades too.
Comes with an assortment of stones (you can get diamond plates too) which are showing no signs of wear after several years use?

Rod


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

jaymar":tjprue1l said:


> Jacob, water stone/ oil stone , the action is the same. A steel will not sharpen a blade ,only re-establish an edge, any fool can indeed use a steel, and ruin an edge at the same time. I know your disparaging remarks may make you feel superior but they don't help anyone else.......


Not superior just normal. A lot of us don't subscribe to the automatic notion that everything is difficult and I don't think it helps beginners either. Beginners - just do it - head down brain off is the way!


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## Graham Orm (13 Dec 2013)

Harbo":1oqhd2wi said:


> I have a genuine EdgePro Apex kit that I bought many years ago, very cheaply on the bay.
> An excellent bit of kit which will sharpen all types of knives and small blades - the more expensive one will sharpen chisels and plane blades too.
> Comes with an assortment of stones (you can get diamond plates too) which are showing no signs of wear after several years use?
> 
> Rod



Hi Rod, if you scroll up to one of my earlier posts you'll see a link to a tour of the manufacturer's shop. The guy who invented it makes an interesting observation, says he doesn't recommend diamond plates as softer steel soon plucks the diamond fragments out and renders them useless.


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## whiskywill (13 Dec 2013)

paulm":tr0513e1 said:


> These are cheap and effective and easy to use if your knives are everyday cheapies rather than anything exotic or special. http://www.amazon.co.uk/AnySharp-




Don't waste your money on Amazon. This one is exactly the same. I have one and it arrived in 9 days from Hong Kong. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kitchen-Chef- ... 617wt_1386


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## RossJarvis (13 Dec 2013)

I sharpen my knifes on a stone (mine are the water variety, but oily ones are fine) it doesn't seem too difficult to do, just hold the knife at the rightish angle and move it back and fore, follow down the blade and round any corners. It doesn't seem to take much skill or learning. You probably need a flat stone though. A heck of a lot easier than sharpening a chisel or plane iron. I've used several different kinds of knife sharpeners and a steel and never got nowhere with 'em :mrgreen: .


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## bugbear (14 Dec 2013)

RossJarvis":3rzlx3d1 said:


> You probably need a flat stone though.



I don't think that's true for knives - I occasionally see stones with massive 3d curves, with a diagonal bias, quite unlike the simple wear pattern (long central hollow) from chisel and plane blade sharpening. I _think_ it's the results of knife sharpening, and the user was clearly capable of using a much more curvacious surface that even a camber loving maniac could tolerate.

BugBear


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## Harbo (14 Dec 2013)

If you are going to use the knives for fine cutting like herbs it's essential to keep the blade flat.
Trying to chop leaves with a concave blade is hopeless?

Rod


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## Kalimna (14 Dec 2013)

And there the nakiri and santoku are very useful indeed.

Adam


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2013)

Harbo":3msqloxr said:


> If you are going to use the knives for fine cutting like herbs it's essential to keep the blade flat.
> Trying to chop leaves with a concave blade is hopeless?
> 
> Rod


Really? Now you tell me. :roll: I've been chopping herbs all my life (today mostly home grown parsley) but my knife is hopeless? Should I send my parsley away to be chopped professionally, or is there some sort of parsley chopping jig?


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## Harbo (15 Dec 2013)

Sorry Grandma Jacob, I didn't realise you were the only person on this thread - of course a world renowned sharpening guru like yourself would not need to be made aware of this? Back to sucking eggs!
I'm surprised you don't sharpen your stuff on your doorstep - my Grandmother did. 


Rod


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2013)

Did you mean concave along the length being no good for chopping herbs? Is a bit obvious I must say. But flat isn't essential - a convex curve is fine.
But I sense another world of knife toolery out there who have all sorts of notions.


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## Kalimna (15 Dec 2013)

You are of course correct, Jacob. You don't need a straight blade to chop herbs, but it does make life easier.

Adam


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## bugbear (15 Dec 2013)

Harbo":pt34s0x9 said:


> If you are going to use the knives for fine cutting like herbs it's essential to keep the blade flat.
> Trying to chop leaves with a concave blade is hopeless?
> 
> Rod



Concave is hopeless for anything where you're cutting down onto a board - probably OK for carvery-style mid air carving and not much else.

You do see a lot of concave carving knves at car boot sales, from the house clearance guys.

BugBear


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## Harbo (15 Dec 2013)

You should read peoples posts more carefully Jacob, instead of pouring out your usual snidey remarks and attempts at put-downs?

I clearly said concave and to someone so expertise and knowledgeable about sharpening as yourself I didn't think I needed to spell out "that along its length" is what I meant.

Convex is fine and the traditional herb cutting knife the Mezzaluna is of that shape. But a knife concave along its length is hopeless especially if you use the traditional, accepted, historic method of rocking the knife from its point.

Rod


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2013)

TBH I couldn't see what you meant as "concave along the length" is so obviously unsuitable for chopping on a board as to be hardly worth the mention. Instead thought you were talking about bevels. Yes and convex along the length work just fine! Sorry if it came over as snide! But there are so many people out there laying down the law on how to do things "correctly".
Concave is OK for carving though but I don't suppose it has any purpose. Carving knives with both dips and hollows are common - from years of sharpening the same way, with a steel.


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## Wood Monkey (18 Dec 2013)

I've just purchased one of these - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plus-3-Blac...d=1386924048&sr=1-49&keywords=knife+sharpener and I can let you know how I get on.

The story is.... We were at a friends for Sunday lunch and they had Wiltshire Knives (sold in Australia) which came in their own sharpening sheath. The blades were very sharp. Our kitchen knives always annoy me as they are always so blunt. My good lady never attempts to sharpen then and instead I usually do it when I have my Tormek set up.

The theory behind the new sharpener is that it can sit in the kitchen drawer and the knives can get a couple of swipes each time they are used.

I may even wrap it up and call it a Christmas present... .


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## Benchwayze (18 Dec 2013)

If they are anywhere near sharp/ish, use the butchers' trick of honing them on the back edge of another knife. This renews the edge easily, and when it doesn't work, it's time to go to the stone. :wink: 

HTH


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## bugbear (18 Dec 2013)

With all due deference to butchers, if you want some super-hot technique on knife sharpening, listen to a fish monger.

Most meat cuts rather nicely; fish not so much.

BugBear


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## joethedrummer (18 Dec 2013)

Benchwayze said:


> If they are anywhere near sharp/ish, use the butchers' trick of honing them on the back edge of another knife. This renews the edge easily, and when it doesn't work, it's time to go to the stone. :wink:
> 
> Hello John,,,that took me back about 30 years when I did some building maintenance work for a local butcher,,I used to watch as the butchers honed their knives on the back of another knife.
> Hanging on the wall, by a bit of string was a steel or two which they used now and again with that "flick flacking" motion that can only come from experience.
> ...


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## Benchwayze (18 Dec 2013)

Drifted off eh? I'll give you a nudge when Christmas is over Joe. You'll think it was all a bad dream! 

Al the best
John


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## joethedrummer (18 Dec 2013)

Benchwayze":1yrr8ivu said:


> Drifted off eh? I'll give you a nudge when Christmas is over Joe. You'll think it was all a bad dream!
> 
> Al the best
> John


HAS he been yet????


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## Benchwayze (18 Dec 2013)

Nope. My radiators are still there! :mrgreen:


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## joethedrummer (18 Dec 2013)

Benchwayze":2g69de38 said:


> Nope. My radiators are still there! :mrgreen:


Radiators ,,,,Drummers,,,,Knives,,, there has got to be a link somewhere,,,,,


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## RossJarvis (18 Dec 2013)

Benchwayze":1zhdh118 said:


> Nope. My radiators are still there! :mrgreen:



Maybe you didn't put a high enough price on them. Up it by 20quid each!


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## Benchwayze (18 Dec 2013)

Sorry Joe, 

it was another thread, to do with radiators. I was confuzzled.

I'll try that Ross! 
cheers

:deer :ho2


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## Jonzjob (18 Dec 2013)

I sharpen our knives on a diamond 'steel' and they are always sharp, until SWMBO gets to trying to slice the steel dish/plate or whatever the object under the knife is sat on. When she tells me it ain't sharp and I look and can see reflected light off of what should be the edge it goes onto mt DMT whet stone, the pocket version fr the little ones or the 10" DMT bench 'stone' for the biggies and they come back good enogh to shave by, if I didn't have a beard that is.

Lets not get onto one of our members who keeps on trying to show just how good and so much better than we poor mortals. It is a very heavy cross to bear being perfect in the land of imperfection. To be born an expert is no mean feat and we must stand in awe and listen. In this season of good will we must try?

By the way, I learned how to sharpen knives from my father. He taught me all of the ways not to do it and what was left is good stuff, bless his black heart!


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## heatherw (18 Dec 2013)

I do feel a certain sympathy for Jacobs point of view on this one :ie: just do it!

While there are definitely many ways of sharpening knives, the cheapest way is with whatever you already have in the house. In my case it's my grandma's old sharpening steel and my 30 year old oilstone.  I find I need to go to the oilstone about once a year, and it's incredibly easy to get a sharp edge on the knife with it, though it's better (and slightly more difficult) to use the edge of the stone to avoid hollowing the face and thus messing up subsequent plane and chisel sharpenings. I had no problem learning how to do this (not like sharpening a bowl gouge, for instance) it's really straightforward and there is quite a lot of margin for error.

In my parents house there is a carving knife which has lived in a box with its own steel for the last 50 years and as far as I know it's never seen another method of sharpening. However, it's only used once a week to cut the sunday joint, and doesn't get to touch metal or chopping boards or marble.

What_ I _want to know is whether you can use an oilstone and steel to sharpen ceramic knives? I can imagine they might clog the stone.


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## Zeddedhed (19 Dec 2013)

I get my local butcher to sharpen my knives. Not 'cos I can't do it - I just like to watch him do his thing with a steel and make the 'flick flacking' sound as joethedrummer so aptly put it.
It takes him about 2 minutes to get my three favourite knives (big chef knife, long whippy carving knife and small pointy paring knife) absolutely insanely sharp, and he does it with a huge smile on his face and normally chucks me a bag of free range chicken wings for making soup for nowt. Admittedly I do spend a LOT of money on rare breed pork, venison and poncy sausages…..hey ho - whats a bloke to do?


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## Jonzjob (19 Dec 2013)

I use my DMT diamond sharpener or our diamond 'steel'. I gave up using our Sabatier steel after a few years because it was too soft and didn't do the job any more. It was used for sharpening our Sabatier knives.

An answer from Ifixit answers

"Unless you are cutting other ceramics or diamonds, these knives should almost never get dull. Use a wood or bamboo cutting board (ceramic, glass or metal is a no-no) and push less. They cut so well because they are so much harder than anything you will encounter in cooking. Bone has a hardness of about 3.5, steel knives about 6.5 and ceramic knives about 9.5. Diamonds are 10.

If you really want to sharpen them you will need a fine or very fine diamond sharpener. The diamond size should be as small as you can get 1000 or more (6 microns or smaller). DMT makes good ones. You can find diamond sharpeners at better Hardware, Wood Working and Sporting Goods stores and they should cost $20 to $60. The trouble is ceramic is so hard it will take a lot of effort to restore the edge. Use water to lubricate and clean your sharpener. Be prepared to rub (use light pressure) about a dozen times, rinse the diamond and repeat many, many times. Inspect the edge with a magnifying glass. General knife sharpening rules apply.

If you look carefully at the very edge of the blade you will see that it is sharpened at an angle that is different from the rest of the blade, try to match that angle. A sharper angle will result in a sharper knife for a little while until the edge chips off in your food (generally not good). A more 'blunt' angle will last longer, but will not cut as well."


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## bugbear (19 Dec 2013)

Jonzjob":1xoy1vw1 said:


> An answer from Ifixit answers
> 
> "Unless you are cutting other ceramics or diamonds, these knives should almost never get dull. Use a wood or bamboo cutting board (ceramic, glass or metal is a no-no) and push less. They cut so well because they are so much harder than anything you will encounter in cooking. Bone has a hardness of about 3.5, steel knives about 6.5 and ceramic knives about 9.5. Diamonds are 10.



The guys who sharpen/use knives for a hobby and/or living (over on knifeforums, many of them work in catering) don't rate ceramics, because they're too thick and obtuse, and too blunt!

BugBear


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## Harbo (19 Dec 2013)

I have a Japanese ceramic knife that I bought years ago, they may have improved, but I don't like mine at all.
I bought it to cut vegetables as it's not supposed to absorb/transfer "tastes" from items cut?
Mine is very difficult to sharpen, even using diamonds, and the blade ends are very brittle - twisting or bending is a big no-no too as they will snap?
An expensive item that sits in a drawer in its protective leather sheath most of the time!

Rod


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