# bow saws and frame saws



## condeesteso (5 Sep 2011)

Hi all - I soon plan to make myself a frame saw, probably a 600mm to start, maybe a bigger 700 later. Jim's bow saw inspired me, but Frank Clausz did a feature on the big ones in Pop Woodworking ages ago and I have fancied a bigger frame saw ever since.
QUESTION - when the bow saw was discussed here, BB I think mentioned a taper fit for the blade fixing shafts at both ends (OK - what's its name then :lol: ). As I am considering finding a model engineer to turn up those components for me (the guys that build miniature steam engines etc) I don't want to experiment re taper -any ideas what may be right. I am assuming a hardened brass with steel pins for the blade, and suspect the taper should be reasonably steep to avoid it jamming / locking up. The taper is there to hold blade angle once you set it and tension the saw.
Dieter Schmid has the blades I think:

http://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.htm

The frame is interesting - I would use yew if I could find the right bits (Jim won't mind  ) - and aim to keep the weight down. Traditional cord tensioning with sliding toggle so you can make 1/2 turn adjustments.

Any ideas, particularly re the taper??


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## Harbo (5 Sep 2011)

Tools for Working Wood used to have some downloadable plans for a bow saw with tapers?

Rod


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## bugbear (5 Sep 2011)

Harbo":2pki930c said:


> Tools for Working Wood used to have some downloadable plans for a bow saw with tapers?
> 
> Rod



No - their pins are paralllel.

Here's my minor contribution to hand tool woodworking on the web;

http://web.archive.org/web/200901140658 ... owsaw.html

Several people (see the gallery at the bottom of that page) have found this plan worthwhile.

BugBear


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## SurreyHills (5 Sep 2011)

The Rennaisance Woodworker did a video blog of his bowsaw build. Go to http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/?s=bowsaw for the full story.


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## woodbloke (5 Sep 2011)

I made a frame saw a while back and the handles (if that's what you're referring to) weren't tapered...I just turned them parallel. The pins to fix the blade to the handle were just some bits of 3mm silver steel and the blade was a bit of an old Tuffsaws bs blade that Ian sent me. Instead of going for the traditional cord tensioning method I used a bit of 6mm studding and butterfly nut. The frame was made out of a couple of oddments of ash with a mahogany stretcher. It was a nice little exercise to make it but I've never used it in earnest. It's almost identical to the one's shown at the bottom of that linkie - Rob


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## jimi43 (5 Sep 2011)

The idea of slightly tapered shafts makes sense indeed and you can lock them in at whatever angle you want the blade to be by just tensioning up.

I will be watching the WIP with interest Douglas...I assume you will be doing this _*after*_ you finish your bench? :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## RogerP (5 Sep 2011)

Here's that Frank Klausz bow saw/dovetail link again in case anyone can't find it.


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## woodbloke (5 Sep 2011)

Here's a couple of pics of my saw:












showing a general shot of the whole thing and a detailed pic of the blade and handle arrangement - Rob


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## kirkpoore1 (5 Sep 2011)

I don't think the taper is needed. The tension will keep it tight enough that the blade won't rotate unless you turn it by hand. Here's a couple of pics of mine:










I didn't even have a lathe when I built it--the shafts are not turned, I rounded them with a spokeshave and chisel. The blade is a 3/16" x 18 tpi bandsaw blade with a hole drilled in each end, and pinned with small cut off nails. I've worked it hard for a good 15 years, and it's been good the whole time. The frame is white oak, from some scrap I had leftover after a project. 

Kirk


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## condeesteso (6 Sep 2011)

Thanks everyone - Some very good looking saws there!
I got interested in a mention of a tapered fit as I have a Gramercy 12" (very fine indeed) but using the fine blades I dare not tension too much, and at angles (worst at 90 degrees) the tension is not enough to lock the blade angle. I know there are ways of holding it to overcome this, but I want to go back a step and design that possible issue out. Particularly on a frame saw (600mm+) you want to hold it many different ways and 2 hands on the handle + frame is not always the way.
Have looked at links - Renaissance is using the Gramercy (Tools for working wood) pins I think (sound was off, too early!!). The 30's one used parallel pins too.
I am considering taking the Gramercy as a start-point, but beefing the whole thing up, extending the pin deeper into the handle, threading it (about M6) and having a bonded captive nut in the handle - a half-turn to lock, say - both ends. This is beginning to become quite easy for someone to turn up I think (small diameter tapers likely to have been an issue).
I think the woodie side of these is a nice shop-made project, so it's really just the pin / blade mount.
I like the Gramercy slot so the pin is tensioned both sides, but these wider blades could do with a greater seating area.
Douglas fir is used on premium wood archery arrows, and following the bow-saw thinking, arrows are pretty good under compression I imagine (Robin splitting the tree and all that. By the way, in Nottinghamshire they are known as arrers, sing. arrer). I digress.
Maybe douglas fir for the stretcher - I would be aiming to keep weight down to a reasonable minimum, especially away from the blade axis. But dense hardwood for handles, to add mass on-axis.
Another option for stretcher is bamboo (arrows again) but laminated... maybe not pretty enough though. Also consider hornbeam, as the handles on my Lie chisels are very light and do take a whacking. (Do they call it iron-wood in the States?)
I will start by ordering a few blades (600mm for now) and then try and find a metal turner to make me a few bits. There are some model train blokes near me... need to go have a chat.
More news later, but it'll be a slow one... bench to finish etc.


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## MIGNAL (6 Sep 2011)

The taper on mine is 1:30. This was on an old Bowsaw that I picked up over 30 years ago. It was a rather elegant model, almost certainly user made but extremely well crafted. I made a beefed up version but used straight pins. It was hopeless in use, the blade wandered of it's own accord. I 'borrowed' the handles/pins from the old bow saw and reamed the parallel holes with a Violin peg hole reamer. Perfect fit! Unfortunately such reamers are very costly. The ones sold for engineers are much cheaper but I've no idea of their taper. The other alternative is to grind down an old file, tapered and with 4 'cutting' edges - scraping would be a more realistic description. Might be crude but there is no reason why it shouldn't work.
I've also made wooden reamers for opening up the bore of flutey type instruments. With a wood lathe they are pretty easy to make but I have my doubts that they will work on such a small diameter found on Bow saw pins.


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## woodbloke (6 Sep 2011)

kirkpoore1":2k0j55t3 said:


> I don't think the taper is needed. The tension will keep it tight enough that the blade won't rotate unless you turn it by hand. Here's a couple of pics of mine:
> Kirk


Agreed...these are pretty basic saws that have remained in use and unchanged for around 2000 years. It's known that the Romans used these types of saws and I'm pretty sure that they didn't bother unduly with tapers etc to lock the blade in use. Why make life complicated when simple works?...and has done for two millenia - Rob


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## MIGNAL (6 Sep 2011)

I think a lot depends on the amount of friction ie. where the handles meet the frame. In my case (thin turn saw blade) this friction was not great enough. Going to tapered rods was a huge improvement, no question about it. I don't think it was complicating matters just for the sake of it either. Someone obviously came across the same problem, as evidenced by my old Bow saw. There may be simpler ways of increasing the friction. I have heard of placing a leather washer between handle/frame.


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## condeesteso (6 Sep 2011)

Mignal - I am with you, absolutely. I think some way of locking the blade orientation especially when at angles is a very good thing, so I have every intention of doing something that will achieve that yet remain fast and easy to use. Whether that ends up just friction (unlikely for me) or taper, or locking handles etc is yet to be decided, but it will have a way of locking it.


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## Alf (6 Sep 2011)

Somewhere or other, I forget where, I came across the suggestion of using O rings to keep the handles from slipping. Not tried it myself, but fwiw.


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## jimi43 (6 Sep 2011)

I don't see reaming a taper as a major problem....and I would assume the angle akin to Mr Morse would be the optimum as it seems to work for lathes :wink: 

Just so I don't forget to ask Douglas....can you get me a couple of 300mm ones too and I will pay you on Thursday (mmmm...where have I heard that before...AH! I remember...please don't think me WIMPY!)



> Wimpy- "A genuine hamburger for the Gentleman. I'm buying."
> Random dude- "Gee thanks."
> Server dude- "Who's paying?"
> Wimpy- "I'm buying. He's paying."



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

And I ain't paying you in screwdrivers....just before you ask you understand! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## condeesteso (6 Sep 2011)

Dear Jim.
No.
See you Thursday.


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## pedder (6 Sep 2011)

condeesteso":pep2ox54 said:


> I got interested in a mention of a tapered fit as I have a Gramercy 12" (very fine indeed) but using the fine blades I dare not tension too much, and at angles (worst at 90 degrees) the tension is not enough to lock the blade angle. I know there are ways of holding it to overcome this, but I want to go back a step and design that possible issue out. Particularly on a frame saw (600mm+) you want to hold it many different ways and 2 hands on the handle + frame is not always the way. Have looked at links - Renaissance is using the Gramercy (Tools for working wood) pins I think (sound was off, too early!!). The 30's one used parallel pins too. I am considering taking the Gramercy as a start-point, but beefing the whole thing up, extending the pin deeper into the handle, threading it (about M6) and having a bonded captive nut in the handle - a half-turn to lock, say - both ends.



Hi Douglas,

why looking for metal pins, when they cause the problem of the spinning blade? The classic design for big bow saws is with wood blade holders (the turned part are not the handles of a big bow saw.) The classic design is tested for a very long time and it works well. 



condeesteso":pep2ox54 said:


> Maybe douglas fir for the stretcher - I would be aiming to keep weight down to a reasonable minimum, especially away from the blade axis. But dense hardwood for handles, to add mass on-axis.



Douglas fir is a very good choice. 

Cheers Pedder


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## condeesteso (6 Sep 2011)

Hi Pedder - that is a very good point, and I noticed one or two frame saws (above, and on my internet travels) with hardwood 'pins'. I think there is enough evidence that people way before me have explored ways to lock any possible rotation of frame to blade. I consider it an issue, but wood for the pin, then maybe inset metals (non-ferrous I suspect) around the blade support area, is promising. I shall look some more and ponder. In particular, I will now ponder the mating of a hardwood pin with enough metal to secure the blade end precisely and without wear.

Or there is a neat shortcut. Pedder, do you make frame saws?? (and can I afford them... :lol: :lol: :lol: )

If not, maybe you should, because they are possibly back in fashion:

- hugely versatile
- low-cost disposable blades of very high quality
- one saw does several jobs (with several blades: rip, cross, contour etc)
- they make the user look like he knows what he is doing (that was flippant, but mildly true)


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## pedder (6 Sep 2011)

Hi Douglas, 

no, I don't and other than the kit with metal pins, wich i never finished, I won't make a bow saw in the foreseeable future. Why? Because Ulmia continues to make them and so does ECE. These saws sell for less than 20€ usually on german ebay.And they work a charme. I'vee several in my workshop. 

But if you are looking for an high class bow saw, have a look what Esat does: 

http://www.woodworking.de/cgi-bin/forum ... read/53215

and the whole saw






more: 
http://www.woodworking.de/cgi-bin/forum ... read/53221

http://www.woodworking.de/cgi-bin/forum ... read/53219

His metal pins probably won't spin. 

BTW: Did you know that I started making backsaws because I thought icouldn't afford an adria.  Sum the money up I've invested in saw making, I could have afforded a few dozen of them and a sawtill full from Mike on top.

Cheers 
Pedder


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## xy mosian (6 Sep 2011)

If you are looking to form a tapered hole in wood. What's wrong with a re-shaped flat bit?

xy


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## jimi43 (6 Sep 2011)

I was just about to tweek my design and that picture has just blown me out of the water!

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 

That is absolutely STUNNING! WOW!

Ok...now I need to rethink this bowsaw thing....amazing...simply amazing! =D> =D> 

Jim


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## jimi43 (6 Sep 2011)

Wait one blinkin' minute!!!!!

No...I don't like it...the blade's the wrong way round!!! 

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## condeesteso (6 Sep 2011)

XY - yes, good point. I have not abandoned any idea of a taper to lock the blade yet. Also Jim's point re Morse is interesting - re tool availability etc.

Pedder, that bowsaw is obviously brilliant, as far as I can see. I look closely at the blade / frame interface as that is the interesting bit. But all beautifully done.
If I may say, it looks it could be a little weighty. Wagnerian sprung to mind... you could take a wild boar out with that one??

(Sorry Pedder, I would translate that to German but it would not be pretty, or good German).

I am now really convinced I need to make at least one.

Will advise progress, but as said before, it will be slow.


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## MIGNAL (6 Sep 2011)

Rather stunning saw. I'm not sure on the hand grip though. Does it not leave a weak or weakened area?
Perhaps I'm being far too suspect.


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## pedder (6 Sep 2011)

Hi Mignal,

really? I don't know. There is a good design from Friedrich, with less bling but technical superior:






The skewed (?) handle feels better than the traditional upright and he carved the handles to make them lighter.

And another design from Roger in Luxembourg, i like because the power is in a line with the teeth:






Cheers Pedder


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## jimi43 (6 Sep 2011)

Hey Pedder!......

If you chopped the top bit off the top of that last one and fitted a......um brass back....you would get a.....

Ok...it was only a thought! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## MIGNAL (6 Sep 2011)

This is the Bowsaw that I made, from lemonwood. It has the tapered pins and handles that I 'borrowed' .
It's more of a traditional 'turn saw'. I've noticed that most of the others posted in this thread have rather deep blades fitted.






I've also thought about the original handles and pins that I made. I'm fairly certain that I placed a metal washer just after the turned 
wooden handle. Perhaps it was the metal on wood that wasn't providing enough friction.


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## AndyNC (7 Sep 2011)

Hi All,

I've been looking to get a bowsaw recently. They come up on ebay time to time. What holds me back is the blade. 
When I do a search for blades all I seem to get are the Large tree cutting wide blades. Most of the bowsaws on ebay have a narrow blade in various lengths. 
Are these narrow blades readily availible and at a reasonable cost??

Cheers

Andy

PS your self made saws look great.


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## MIGNAL (7 Sep 2011)

Thin kerf Bandsaw blade? Might work. Just anneal the ends and drill for the retaining pins.


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## kirkpoore1 (7 Sep 2011)

MIGNAL":22ca0xb6 said:


> Thin kerf Bandsaw blade? Might work. Just anneal the ends and drill for the retaining pins.



That's all I use, and I don't even bother to anneal the ends before drilling. Probably would make things a little easier, though. The good thing is that you get several bow saw blades out of one band saw blade, so if you break one or bend/kink/twist it too much, you just pop it out and put in another. They last a long time, too.

Kirk


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## AndyNC (7 Sep 2011)

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestions. It seems to easy.
I'll search ebay again.

Many thanks
Andy


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## condeesteso (9 Sep 2011)

I think Jim will cast light on the use of bandsaw blades. I know it's been done, but the tooth form is quite different. i found them very hard to start and fairly hard to control, but they can be cheap. The best I have found so far are the Schmid ones (for the longer lengths) - a 10mm wide 600mm long at 9.50 euro for example. Gramercy (Tools for Working Wood) do a set of 3 different 12", all very narrow, for turning, at $12.95. I use those and they are very good indeed. Otherwise I'm sure someone knows a source of good (Japanese?, maybe Swedish?) 12" narrow blades - info please as several here want some, incl me and Jim!!


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## Richard T (9 Sep 2011)

re bandsaw blades, I've been using DF "Ripper" blades which have hooked teeth are very good with 3hp driving them but would be a right pain in a hand saw. Impossible to start.

I use big ol' 1" wide blades but I don't know if the hooked tooth trend extends to narrower ripping blades that would be just as useless in a frame saw I should think. 
I wonder if there is a good compromise of good ripping/turning/easy starting bandsaw blade ideal for this purpose ...


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## xy mosian (9 Sep 2011)

I can see the advantages of a tapered joint between the blade holders and the legs of the frame to stop twisting of the blade. Why does it have to be in metal? Use a wooden knob with a tapered section into a tapered hole. This is relatively easy turning and gives the joint benefits of of wood on wood friction and the taper. The blade attaching part could well be glued, epoxy, into the end of the same knob. I have always thought the sighting pins on a 'standard' copying saw would be a good addition to a bow-saw of this type.
HTH xy


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## jimi43 (9 Sep 2011)

Evidence from a 100+ year old bowsaw (Marples Shamrock) with brass handle inserts showed that they were elongated and worn.

For this reason, I decided to use steel. Wood, even hardwood, without a metal insert would probably not be man enough...though certain hardwoods may be candidates...they will probably only last a generation :lol: 






At the time, I was not aware of tapering and indeed...the old Marples one that I have has parallel pins.....had I known of the concept and used it I think the steel would bed tighter under tension...tapering could have been done easily by setting the offset of the lathe cross-slide to be of Morse taper angles.

That being said...the tension created by the turn/twine was great enough when properly set to hold the handles where they were set....






...whether wear would eventually cause this lock to deteriorate is open to question...I don't want to take the risk.

The second prototype will sport tapered steel pins with matching inserts....or another locking devise which is functional yet fast....that is WIP at the moment! :wink: 

The blades I have been using on version one....






...are bandsaw off-cuts kindly given to me by Ian at Tuffsaws....(thank you so much Ian!)....and I had a large number of options to try...including thin kerf meat and fish ones of huge proportions.

In testing and comparison with Douglas' Gramercy ones, I have come to the conclusion that they are all too aggressive...including the high TPI ones...and this appears to be down to the tooth profile and geometry.

The Gramercy ones, although courser TPI...were easy to start and run....and had a completely different profile.

So...conclusion...yes you can use bandsaw blade offcuts and indeed...these might be suitable for larger, heavier framesaws...but for bowsaws and delicate work...like tenons and dovetails...I feel the correct blades are the only option. Sadly, these are few and far between and inherently more expensive.

More tests will be done on these options.

Cheers

Jimi


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## Racers (9 Sep 2011)

Hi, Jimi

So a strip of spring steel and a file might be the way forward?


Pete


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## jimi43 (9 Sep 2011)

Racers":h3bpl4ef said:


> Hi, Jimi
> 
> So a strip of spring steel and a file might be the way forward?
> 
> ...



Indeed it may. :idea: =D> 

Jim


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## Philipp (9 Sep 2011)

Racers":3dsi1xlf said:


> Hi, Jimi
> 
> So a strip of spring steel and a file might be the way forward?
> 
> ...



It is! And don't forget the saw vise  .


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## MIGNAL (9 Sep 2011)

I have 2 of the original blades left. These are old and I assume they were specifically made for this type of saw. I have resharpened each of them twice - actually more like a quick 'touch up'. It can be done in less than 5 minutes, so don't throw away those old blunt turn saw blades!
I wonder how many of those NOS blades are left. Someone, somewhere must have a box full of them.


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## kirkpoore1 (9 Sep 2011)

jimi43":2y1h6p4o said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jimi:

First, that's a very nice looking saw. Is there a functional reason you have different knobs on either end, or does it just make it easier to find the right end to cut from?

As for bandsaw blades, I'm glad you've been able to experiment. I use my bowsaw only for cutting curves and for inside cuts, all in materials that are medium to thin (3/4" or less). I've found that unless you use a fairly fine blade (more than 12 teeth per inch), the saw works very roughly in even 3/4" material. This would match your results. However, the 18 tpi blade I usually use cuts pretty well. I'm not expecting finish quality on these cuts, mostly I want to get where a spokeshave or even sanding can quickly get things done. 

For tenons, I pretty much stick with my tenon saw. I do use the bowsaw to cut the bottoms out of the dovetail waste, but not the sides. Really, I built the bowsaw to replace the junky coping saws I had before, and it does that very well. To use it to cut thicker stock or long straight lines, I'd probably follow your lead and look for a true bowsaw blade. I imagine it would be possible to refile a bandsaw blade to a different profile, too.

Kirk


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## bugbear (9 Sep 2011)

kirkpoore1":2gxi6j7p said:


> First, that's a very nice looking saw. Is there a functional reason you have different knobs on either end, or does it just make it easier to find the right end to cut from?



The "near" handle is a true handle; the "far" handle AKA know is only for rotating the blade in the frame.

The correct grip (as told by Charles Haywood) is shown here:







BugBear


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## Racers (9 Sep 2011)

Hi, BB

That looks like the knuckle smashing grip! I see the blade is vertical but the cut is curved, how's that work :wink: 

Pete


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## bugbear (9 Sep 2011)

Racers":30tx2hkv said:


> Hi, BB
> 
> That looks like the knuckle smashing grip! I see the blade is vertical but the cut is curved, how's that work :wink:
> 
> Pete



I suspect the saw was put vertical (via a TINY curved cut) for the photo.

BugBear


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## pedder (9 Sep 2011)

This might be the correct grip for small bow saws or turning saws. (I don't like that grip one either saw) For the bigger bow saws the handle is the upright part, like seen in the Klausz video.

BTW to saw straight one better uses a wider blade. The thin blades are for ciurved work only. (Not much use in my woodwork) 

Cheers PEdder


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## condeesteso (9 Sep 2011)

yes Pedder, whilst the structure makes us think of them as one, they are quite different I think. I mean the 'Bowsaw' 300mm (12") and the twice size 'framesaw' (600+). I don't think I would go to a 600 for turning cuts at all, but the frame saw has a lot of capabilities.
Personally I am not interested in narrow 'turning' blades in a 600. I am keen to use it for bigger sawing jobs. Hence a wider blade (2 really, a rip and a cross). So I would guess a blade width of 20mm+ would be good for all that.
Therefore, I feel the freedom to hold any way as the cut requires is important in a frame saw, less so in a turning saw perhaps. BBs pic of the correct way for a bowsaw is not necessarily the only way to hold a frame saw, and I feel that for a framesaw to be really good, I need to be able to hold at is the cut requires. Hence the pursuit of a way to lock the blade angle relative to the frame.
Fundamentally, I think this - the best most-used intuitive tools 'fall into the hand'. My Gramercy 12' is without doubt a fine tool, but unless I hold it exactly as BB says, it can fall (frame falling from blade-true). I refuse to accept that in a frame saw.


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## dedee (9 Sep 2011)

Douglas, your thread has rekindled an idea I had way back to make a frame saw for resawing, ie with the blade in the middle of the frame. I've just started another thread thinking that they may be a specific name for this type of frame saw but perhaps not.

Anyway having searched around again I have come across a couple of blogs that may offer some help.

This one uses a jig of sorts to hold the blade while it is tensioned

http://www.galoototron.com/tag/frame-saw/

And in this one a slot is cut into to the frame to hold the blade square - no use if you want to adjust the angle of course.

http://hyperkitten.com/woodworking/frame_saw.php

I may well have a go at making a Resaw Frame Saw with unglued tenon joints and a slot in the frame to hold the blade square, a Japenese rip cut blade and blade holder from Dieter Schmid with a slotted bolt at the other end of the blade.

Andy


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