# Tricoya for box sash



## LBCarpentry (Tuesday at 06:06)

Got about 12 original box sash windows to make and just starting to do the drawings for them. Question - has anyone used tricoya to do this before? Once dominoed into box sections I know they will be sturdy enough for sure. 

I’m actually trying to think of reasons why it’s wouldnt be a good idea…

One consideration. Is the pocket cover. But I have an idea for this also. 

Think it would save considerable time and cost over accoya timber and still has its 50 year guarantee. 

Thoughts?

Mad?


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## johnnyb (Tuesday at 07:43)

using sheet material has to be a winner maybe try one see how it paints up and operates.


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## Bristol_Rob (Tuesday at 08:16)

Sounds risky to me

If the client is paying for the timber why take the risk?


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## Doug71 (Tuesday at 08:38)

I have never made a window out of it but I'm sure some firms do, I would be happy using it for the inside and outside linings but not sure about the pulley lining?

I did use it for the outside lining on a window I repaired and it worked fine.

I think @Against_The_Grain has made a few sash windows and might have an opinion?


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## Against_The_Grain (Tuesday at 10:53)

Doug71 said:


> I think @Against_The_Grain has made a few sash windows and might have an opinion?



Yes, there was a large company in London that was doing it, they were liquidated a couple of years ago now as they went belly-up. If I recall correctly they had a very large amount of callbacks from the sashes jamming solid in the boxes in the summer as while the Accoya dust itself is stable, the binding agent wasn’t and when heated up by the sun they expanded very slightly causing the sashes to be effectively cramped in place, not ideal when you’re trying to ventilate your building in the middle of a heatwave.

Might be different now, all of that was secondhand information from the Accoya representative who at the time made it very clear that it wasn’t suitable for the application, presumably to cover themselves in the event of something like this happening.


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## johnnyb (Tuesday at 11:20)

if its the rep he's probably made it up to protect accoya sales but it's simple enough to test.( I'm so cynical)


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## deema (Tuesday at 11:34)

The thread is about Tricoya not Accoya, which are different products, the first is a stabilised MDF type material the second is a pickled softwood. 
All natural wood moves, so when making stuff this has to be considered in the design. Tricoya states categorically that it’s stable and is designed for external use. It’s going to be painted / protected from the weather so I can’t see any reason why it’s not a good idea. Let’s put it this way, I’d use it.


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## Jacob (Tuesday at 11:35)

Redwood is good but they'd only last 100 years or so.


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## Solicitus (Tuesday at 12:44)

Or longer. I refurbished mine (34 sashes) during lockdown. House was built 1890, the original single glazed windows have been repaired from time to time but still very sound. No doubt the next owner will rip them out and "upgrade" them with uvpc.


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## rogxwhit (Tuesday at 12:46)

Jacob said:


> Redwood is good but they'd only last 100 years or so.


Have _you_ made external joinery from redwood that's lasted 100 yrs Jacob?


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## Jacob (Tuesday at 13:08)

rogxwhit said:


> Have _you_ made external joinery from redwood that's lasted 100 yrs Jacob?


Feels like it! But I've had hands on with a lot of it and older too.


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## rogxwhit (Tuesday at 13:23)

Jacob said:


> Feels like it! But I've had hands on with a lot of it and older too.


My point is that the Victorians had access to wood from old growth forests having larger trees and could exclude sapwood. Sapwood is now prevalent in commercially available redwood that comes from smaller trees grown on rotation and is known to have poor durability. The Victorians also used lead-based compounds in the joints and in finishes that were toxic to fungi (rot). 

Having said that I know of redwood windows that I made 40 yrs ago that are still in good nick, but I made the sills from durable hardwood, treated the joints with preservative before assembly, and the paint's been maintained ...


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## Jacob (Tuesday at 13:34)

rogxwhit said:


> My point is that the Victorians had access to wood from old growth forests having larger trees and could exclude sapwood. Sapwood is now prevalent in commercially available redwood that comes from smaller trees grown on rotation and is known to have poor durability. The Victorians also used lead-based compounds in the joints and in finishes that were toxic to fungi (rot).
> 
> Having said that I know of redwood windows that I made 40 yrs ago that are still in good nick, but I made the sills from durable hardwood, treated the joints with preservative before assembly, and the paint's been maintained ...


I went off "durable" hardwoods after encountering many rotten oak cills - sometimes with the redwood stiles slotted in still in perfect condition. But paint could be the prob - it doesn't stick too well on oak.
Never had a prob with sapwood or new swedish redwood.


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## Ollie78 (Wednesday at 08:40)

I would just use solid Accoya. 
I am not sure there is any advantage in using the super expensive Triccoya, unless you already have a lot of it lying about.

I just do mine with a tongue both sides of the pulley lining and grooves in the cheeks, pretty quick to just run a load of stock lengths on the spindle and its the "traditional" way, creates a very good joint that will remain sealed even with a bit of movement.
Doing it with domino's makes me think it will be basically a butt joint, which could start to open between the domino's over time.
Will you be making custom Accoya domino's ?

Remember you will need to use a PU glue and your workshop will smell like salt and vineger crisps for ages !!

Ollie


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## rogxwhit (Wednesday at 09:16)

Ollie78 said:


> pulley lining


Pulley stile.


Ollie78 said:


> cheeks


Inner & outer linings. 

;-)


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## Ollie78 (Wednesday at 10:58)

rogxwhit said:


> Pulley stile.
> 
> Inner & outer linings.
> 
> ;-)



Ha ha. I think this is a regional thing.

I worked with a Scotish fella and he would always call the staff bead "bar". As in "where is the 20mm barrr". 


Ollie


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## johnnyb (Wednesday at 13:35)

don't start dissing red deal. built properly with a bit of protection it will last. sapele stuff made poorly and stuck on the face will rot. I once went to look at a beautiful set of folding doors in painted sapele. the panels had been cut tight and they were twisting ridiculously. brilliant job put together by numpties.
my pet theory on victorian redwood is it was growing during the little ice age. thus making it slow grown and durable. ie 1860 made would be growing 1780 on. wadya reckon?


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## johnnyb (Wednesday at 13:44)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age&ved=2ahUKEwiX07r80r_8AhVuQUEAHdUHCRUQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0NaRDBwilEuKIufx1uu3lI


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## Fitzroy (Wednesday at 13:56)

johnnyb said:


> don't start dissing red deal. built properly with a bit of protection it will last. sapele stuff made poorly and stuck on the face will rot. I once went to look at a beautiful set of folding doors in painted sapele. the panels had been cut tight and they were twisting ridiculously. brilliant job put together by numpties.
> my pet theory on victorian redwood is it was growing during the little ice age. thus making it slow grown and durable. ie 1860 made would be growing 1780 on. wadya reckon?


Not buying it sorry, I think it's just that modern timber is fast grown as it is a farmed product, vs in Victorian times they were harvesting nonfarmed timber. Farms are all about efficiency and getting a product to market as soon as possible, the quicker you can get that tree to Xmeters tall and Y meters circumference the faster you can sell it. No idea how they do this (fertiliser, tree spacing or growing location?) but farmers are good at working this stuff out!


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## Jacob (Wednesday at 14:06)

johnnyb said:


> don't start dissing red deal. built properly with a bit of protection it will last. sapele stuff made poorly and stuck on the face will rot. I once went to look at a beautiful set of folding doors in painted sapele. the panels had been cut tight and they were twisting ridiculously. brilliant job put together by numpties.
> my pet theory on victorian redwood is it was growing during the little ice age. thus making it slow grown and durable. ie 1860 made would be growing 1780 on. wadya reckon?


I've compared bits and bobs of old and new redwood and usually there is no difference, assuming northerly sources. Saw mills would cut smaller trees for smaller timbers - so 6" floor boards would look the same whether 10 or 100 years old. But what you don't get is the larger stuff - massive boards grown from ancient virgin forest trees.


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## johnnyb (Wednesday at 16:35)

my understanding of that is old growth timber was exhausted a long time ago in Europe ( less so in america)
I've certainly seen oak sills on sashes not rot like softwood but break down and weather away.
pinus strobus heartwood is genetically identical to heartwood 150 years ago. what's changed?
I think its wrong to imagine resources weren't farmed and exploited back then. France famously planting oaks for shipbuilding(Britain had timber from the colonies)
the reason sheffield steel used iron from Sweden was because Sweden still had timber for charcoal(and quality ore) the only way to get steel with few impurities was to use charcoal. uk had used its own supply many years ago. hence why Abraham darby's discovery helped reignite the iron industry(albeit for non tools being to full of impurities)


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## Jacob (Wednesday at 16:43)

johnnyb said:


> my understanding of that is old growth timber was exhausted a long time ago in Europe ( less so in america)
> I've certainly seen oak sills on sashes not rot like softwood but break down and weather away.
> pinus strobus heartwood is genetically identical to heartwood 150 years ago. what's changed?
> I think its wrong to imagine resources weren't farmed and exploited back then. France famously planting oaks for shipbuilding(Britain had timber from the colonies)


Oak was planted and conserved here too - for church, navy and for charcoal around areas of early iron works.

_"Forest management and conservation are long established practices - see 'The History of the Countryside' by Oliver Rackham.
William Cobbett, in 'Rural Rides', comments often on the extent and variety of woodland in England in the early 19th century. Demand for timber was very high at this time and the abundance of woodland was due largely to traditional conservation practices.
19th century visitors to Ireland comment on the absence of trees and the bare landscape. This was due to English exploitation of the Irish forests since even before the sudden demand caused by the Great Fire of London when much rebuilding was with Irish timber. English owners of Irish land were not interested in forestry except as a short term cash source. It was often sold cheaply and there was little local demand. In earlier centuries Ireland had been known for its ancient forests but sheep, cattle and corn were more profitable and the old forests were cover for not only wolves but also the dispossessed Irish.

Tis cause enough for grieving,
Our shelter felled around us...
What shall we do for timber?
The last of the woods is down...
There's no holly nor hazel nor ash there,
The pasture's rock and stone,
The crown of the forest has withered,
And the last of the game is gone.

'Lament for the Woodlands' (Anon) from 'Lords and Commons' (Cuala Press, Dublin 1938), Frank O'Connor"_


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## Against_The_Grain (Wednesday at 19:25)

On the subject of timber quality and "It's not what it used to be", there are a plethora of factors but one of the main culprits that often gets overlooked in these conversations is industrial timber kilning which became much more prevalent in the 1950s and '60s. The overwhelming vast majority of timber before this period was air-dried and took many months if not years to get down to usable levels where with kilning you could go from a tree to usable timber in a matter of weeks, and this comes with side effects.

Timber that is kiln-dried, particularly if aggressive kilning practices have been used which stresses the material greatly. The timber will be much harder and more brittle compared to its air-dried counterpart, there will be a much higher tendency for timber that warps and bows after sawing and planing, and it loses a lot of its durability. An air-dried piece of softwood is much more flexible, stable, and it retains its natural durability, compare an air-dried piece of Scots Pine and a kiln-dried piece and you will swear they were two totally different timbers with two totally different characteristics, the kiln-dried piece will deteriorate much faster than the air-dried when exposed to the elements.

An excellent book on the subject by someone who clearly has spent a good deal of their life researching and practicing the subject is "Cut and Dried" by Richard Jones.



johnnyb said:


> in don't start dissing red deal.



Red deal? It really must be the 60s! I haven't heard the term "deal" for decades and probably for the better as it confused people to what they were actually getting.



Ollie78 said:


> I would just use solid Accoya.
> I am not sure there is any advantage in using the super expensive Triccoya, unless you already have a lot of it lying about.



It's not so super expensive, at least not compared to Accoya these days which has gone through the roof.

An 8' x 4' 18mm sheet will run you back about £160, enough 8" x 1" Accoya to cover the same area is closer to £180-200, before you even start machining it.


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## Sgian Dubh (Wednesday at 20:22)

Against_The_Grain said:


> An excellent book on the subject by someone who clearly has spent a good deal of their life researching and practicing the subject is "Cut and Dried" by Richard Jones.


I very much appreciate the positive endorsement. Thank you. Slainte.


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## johnnyb (Wednesday at 20:37)

I always find red deal to be a bit moist. which is an issue for interiors as it goes like a pringle after a week. 







no idea why as the American softwood are b



























nidea o


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## johnnyb (Wednesday at 20:40)

sorry that really annoying ad at the top seems to interfere with my posts jumbling the letters around.


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## Ollie78 (Thursday at 08:31)

Against_The_Grain said:


> It's not so super expensive, at least not compared to Accoya these days which has gone through the roof.
> 
> An 8' x 4' 18mm sheet will run you back about £160, enough 8" x 1" Accoya to cover the same area is closer to £180-200, before you even start machining it.



That is interesting to know, looks like the Triccoya has come down a bit since last I looked.
I haven't used Accoya for a while now since the price went bonkers.
The last few windows I did I just used Utile for everything, just because I had some, I always use it for sashes anyway but it made really nice boxes.

Ollie


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## schnapps95 (Thursday at 15:39)

Ollie78 said:


> Ha ha. I think this is a regional thing.
> 
> I worked with a Scotish fella and he would always call the staff bead "bar". As in "where is the 20mm barrr".
> 
> ...





Jacob said:


> I've compared bits and bobs of old and new redwood and usually there is no difference, assuming northerly sources. Saw mills would cut smaller trees for smaller timbers - so 6" floor boards would look the same whether 10 or 100 years old. But what you don't get is the larger stuff - massive boards grown from ancient virgin forest trees.


It's not a regional thing it is fact. if you were to use a manufactured board for the pully stiles how would you form the sash pocket's ? As regarding tonguing the pulley stile into the linings and using glue when making the boxes i have never done this nor have i ever seen it on old windows i have taken out and cut up for firewood. When using Accoya it is advised that you stainless steel fixing's & fastening's and when you cross cut a piece to length to seal the cut with a special paint. I found if you stainless nails they need to be annular shank ones the plain ones pull out to easy later as they don't rust like an ordinary nail. Made a few hundred box windows in a lifetime of working still at work now at 81yrs. and as to spiral balances we avoid them like the plague a sash cord is easy to renew with a spiral balance it is visit to the site measure the balance weigh the the sash order it wait a couple of weeks for delivery then go to site and fit


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## schnapps95 (Thursday at 16:05)

rogxwhit said:


> My point is that the Victorians had access to wood from old growth forests having larger trees and could exclude sapwood. Sapwood is now prevalent in commercially available redwood that comes from smaller trees grown on rotation and is known to have poor durability. The Victorians also used lead-based compounds in the joints and in finishes that were toxic to fungi (rot).
> 
> Having said that I know of redwood windows that I made 40 yrs ago that are still in good nick, but I made the sills from durable hardwood, treated the joints with preservative before assembly, and the paint's been maintained ...


In the 50s, 60s & 70s etc Redwoods used to be sold by groups 1, 2, & 3 each group was between certain latitudes ( can't remember which ) but group 1 was the best and dearest as it was nearer to the Arctic circle and therefore the timber was slower grown also it was sold by the Petrograd Standard which equates to 165 cu. ft or 4.672 cu. metres can someone check for me ? (not very good at maths)


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## Ollie78 (Thursday at 16:12)

@schnapps95 
I was only meaning that the parts are called different names depending on region.
I agree with you about spiral balances being useless. 

I have seen many ( probably hundreds) of box sashes made with the tongue and groove method in an area including Oxfordshire, Berkshire, Wiltshire, Bristol/Bath . 
Maybe that is regional too? or maybe they did it during a certain period. 


Ollie


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## Jacob (Thursday at 16:44)

schnapps95 said:


> In the 50s, 60s & 70s etc Redwoods used to be sold by groups 1, 2, & 3 each group was between certain latitudes ( can't remember which ) but group 1 was the best and dearest as it was nearer to the Arctic circle and therefore the timber was slower grown also it was sold by the Petrograd Standard which equates to 165 cu. ft or 4.672 cu. metres can someone check for me ? (not very good at maths)


It is now sold with top grade "unsorted" which includes grades 1,2,3, with slight variations between Sweden, Russia, etc. Grades 4,5 would be for floor boards, skirtings etc.
"Unsorted" is very good but for some purposes you might want to sort it e.g. glazing bars need to be free of knots.
What is harder to get (but not impossible) is the very wide stuff which came from very old trees in virgin forest.
For sash windows and architectural joinery in general there is no problem.
My theory about the change from wooden windows is that it's the fault of modern paints - they are totally inferior to trad linseed oil paint. Windows rot and the wood gets the blame but it should be the paint!. I've had a lot of experiences which would back this up.
Another prob has been design; EJMA windows particularly bad, particularly the wide projecting cill, which is doomed to fail.


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## johnnyb (Thursday at 18:08)

my own feeling is at some stage people starting putting stuff on the masonry face rather than sheltered and set behind masonry. even now a leaky bit of spouting can wreck woodwork in a concentrated area.


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## Jameshow (Thursday at 18:16)

schnapps95 said:


> It's not a regional thing it is fact. if you were to use a manufactured board for the pully stiles how would you form the sash pocket's ? As regarding tonguing the pulley stile into the linings and using glue when making the boxes i have never done this nor have i ever seen it on old windows i have taken out and cut up for firewood. When using Accoya it is advised that you stainless steel fixing's & fastening's and when you cross cut a piece to length to seal the cut with a special paint. I found if you stainless nails they need to be annular shank ones the plain ones pull out to easy later as they don't rust like an ordinary nail. Made a few hundred box windows in a lifetime of working still at work now at 81yrs. and as to spiral balances we avoid them like the plague a sash cord is easy to renew with a spiral balance it is visit to the site measure the balance weigh the the sash order it wait a couple of weeks for delivery then go to site and fit


Not alot of experience then! 

I have a cabinet maker in our men's shed who at 82 who is such an inspiration, what he lacks in physical strength he makes up for in wisdom!!


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## LBCarpentry (Thursday at 19:02)

I shall post that cads up at some point. Good chatting


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## Against_The_Grain (Thursday at 20:12)

schnapps95 said:


> As regarding tonguing the pulley stile into the linings and using glue when making the boxes i have never done this nor have i ever seen it on old windows i have taken out and cut up for firewood.



Possibly not something you would encounter up North where joinery was often more utilitarian in the Victorian era as compared to the joinery in the south of the country. I've seen it on very old examples and in a few books (George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery being a notable example) it is listed as the "superior" method of assembling the box.


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## Doug71 (Thursday at 20:44)

Against_The_Grain said:


> Possibly not something you would encounter up North where joinery was often more utilitarian in the Victorian era as compared to the joinery in the south of the country. I've seen it on very old examples and in a few books (George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery being a notable example) it is listed as the "superior" method of assembling the box.



You could be right as I'm up North (ish) and we used to just butt the pulley stiles to the linings, we would prime the joints then just bang in some 1 1/2" ovals (being careful not to hit the pockets).

I do tend to use the "superior" method now.


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## Jacob (Thursday at 21:07)

Doug71 said:


> You could be right as I'm up North (ish) and we used to just butt the pulley stiles to the linings, we would prime the joints then just bang in some 1 1/2" ovals (being careful not to hit the pockets).
> 
> I do tend to use the "superior" method now.


Same here. One reason you might not see tongues and grooves is that it tended to be later - Edwardian etc and hence still in good nick not needing replacement, or only on posh houses.


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## Oakay (Thursday at 23:19)

Ollie78 said:


> That is interesting to know, looks like the Triccoya has come down a bit since last I looked.
> I haven't used Accoya for a while now since the price went bonkers.
> The last few windows I did I just used Utile for everything, just because I had some, I always use it for sashes anyway but it made really nice boxes.
> 
> Ollie


'Since Accoya price went bonkers' Hmm, agreed, it has seemed to me that the Accoya product has been all about making a lot of money for the wealthy few all along. Several years ago I invested in the company when, if I remember correctly, the Lib Dem politician Nick Clegg was on the board. I remember how robbed I felt when the share price plummetted and I and many private investors lost significant sums for trying to do the right thing and support a product which should help the environment (in this case by achieving long-life service from a fast growing non-durable timber type.) I have since changed my mind about Accoya's 'green' credentials because of the huge amounts of energy required in its manufacture. If a prominent politician is on the board of a company, watch out, they sure know how to make a bob or two out of an honest punter.


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## Ollie78 (Friday at 00:33)

.


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## Against_The_Grain (Friday at 00:34)

Saplen is a competitive timber to Accoya, it’s thermally modified beech which boasts the same durability characteristics as Accoya for half the price.

I haven’t tried it myself but a few people rage on about it.


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## LBCarpentry (Yesterday at 12:52)

Against_The_Grain said:


> Saplen is a competitive timber to Accoya, it’s thermally modified beech which boasts the same durability characteristics as Accoya for half the price.
> 
> I haven’t tried it myself but a few people rage on about it.


And it’s used successfully for external joinery??


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## LBCarpentry (Yesterday at 12:55)

Oakay said:


> 'Since Accoya price went bonkers' Hmm, agreed, it has seemed to me that the Accoya product has been all about making a lot of money for the wealthy few all along. Several years ago I invested in the company when, if I remember correctly, the Lib Dem politician Nick Clegg was on the board. I remember how robbed I felt when the share price plummetted and I and many private investors lost significant sums for trying to do the right thing and support a product which should help the environment (in this case by achieving long-life service from a fast growing non-durable timber type.) I have since changed my mind about Accoya's 'green' credentials because of the huge amounts of energy required in its manufacture. If a prominent politician is on the board of a company, watch out, they sure know how to make a bob or two out of an honest punter.


It’s grown in New Zealand to start with so it’s very first journey over to Holland where it’s treated is a bit of an eye brow raiser. However, I use it for its lack of swelling and ease of machining. Almost as good as laminated softwood


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## LBCarpentry (Yesterday at 12:58)

Against_The_Grain said:


> Possibly not something you would encounter up North where joinery was often more utilitarian in the Victorian era as compared to the joinery in the south of the country. I've seen it on very old examples and in a few books (George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery being a notable example) it is listed as the "superior" method of assembling the box.


It is actually easier to cut 5mm deep housing / channel and then assemble. Butt jointing requires a lot of faff lining up by hand or with use of a jig. I actually think domino would be the longest method time wise


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## LBCarpentry (Yesterday at 13:02)

Yes it is tedious how Accoya seem to put prices up every 4 months. Especially as we brought into the whole thing years ago and kind of based our USP around it. It’s plastered all over our website and we push hard for its use. Maybe I’ll start quoting in lam softwood again. I have always found that the most enjoyable to work with from start to finish.


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## Against_The_Grain (Yesterday at 16:00)

LBCarpentry said:


> And it’s used successfully for external joinery??



From what I've seen, yes. A big bonus is that it doesn't rot out all your ironmongery in time as it's a thermal modification rather than a chemical one like the Accoya which leaves a lot of acetic acid in the timber. It's also a consistent dark brown colour throughout, where the Accoya is black for the first few millimeters and lighter on the inside, combined with stick marks all over it which can make clear-finishing a nightmare.


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