# Japanese chisel newbie question



## Alf (29 Mar 2004)

Yep, strictly a newbie on this one, but I've been wanting to try one for a long while and I know there are users out there. Trouble is, where's a good place to start? I was thinking a 12mm _Orie Nomi_, but like a fool I went to look at the Craftsman's Choice site and my head imploded... :shock: How do I tell the Japanese equivalents of a Marples Blue Chip from a Kirschen, or a hand forged Barr? Prices from a tenner to £100+ don't help. :roll: No one seems to go into the differences in quality much, but surely not all Japanese chisels are created equal? I just don't want to end up with an example from _AmTech-san_ :lol: Any advice appreciated, or else I'll have to shut my eyes and use a pin... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (29 Mar 2004)

Don't know much but I think that the more expensive ones tend to be hand made and the top priced ones have engravings on the back- decorative rather than functional
I got a decent set of Orie Nomi from Dieter Schmid which came fully polished and honed - use straight from the box

http://www.fine-tools.com/stemjap.htm

They are fantastic and did not break the bank.

I needed to get some English style chisels too (see previous posts relating to Two Cherries) as the backs are not very long and thus one cannot really pare with them.

I have the Japanese chisels for many hours on Oak without the need to resharpen despite copious use of a hammer 

Tony


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## Chris Knight (29 Mar 2004)

Alf,

No very firm advice here I am afraid, just a couple of observations from my own limited experience with said chisels

1. You can pay an awful lot for fancy looks that have nothing to do with chisel quality (ebony handles, willow patterns on the blades and whatnot).

2. All the ones I have tried have beautifully sharp edges but because the steel is hard and brittle, they can get chipped all too easily on hardwoods, knots etc. Then you are into sharpening and because of the shape of the blade this is a trickier job than a western chisel if you use a honing guide

I am intrigued by a chisel sold by the "Museum of Woodworking Tools" that promises to overcome the brittleness problem
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merc ... e=toolshop Use their search facility to look for this product code

MS-JACHYXR7.XX


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## Alf (29 Mar 2004)

Oh 'eck, more choices! :roll: (thanks tho') The Museum of Woodworking ones look awfully similar to this set from Axminster. Even down to the similarity between stock codes. I dunno though, isn't it blades made of alloys that make modern Western chisels so disappointing? Heck of a lot of money to spend to find you don't like 'em :? What bevel angle did you use, Chris? I'm reading a lot that says as much as 30-33 degrees.

Yeah, I was pretty sure the really pricey ones were getting into looks over function; sandalwood handles and damascus steel (nice, but not _that_ nice). Reading various posts on The Wreck and such, it seems you might get a ground hollow back, rather than forged, on the cheaper ones. Also sometimes less support to the cutting edge in some cases. Trouble is, _which_ cases? And then there's the sharpening issue. Do they _have_ to be sharpened on waterstones? Urgh... This is why I've never got round to trying one yet. :roll: 

Ah well, keep it coming folks. I have plenty more confusion capacity yet :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Philly (29 Mar 2004)

Alf,
Try a cheap-sorry, reasonably priced set from Tilgear. Don't bother to go for the ebony handles, nice as they might look-heard they are a bit brittle.
I have a set of 1/2, 3/4, 1 and 2inch. They are very handy for special occasions as you can get an amazingly sharp edge on them. Downside (isn't there always!) is that they are slightly brittle and will not tolerate being used to lever out waste, etc. You can beat the hell out them with a hammer, not a problem, its only when you twist the edge.
Give them a try-they won't replace your "old favourites" but they are a very useful addition to your tool box.
As regards sharpening-you don't have to use waterstones(I use wet and dry sometimes). But there again, you really are missing out if you haven't tried them.
regards,
Philly


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## Anonymous (29 Mar 2004)

Alf":10gwd3ok said:


> Oh 'eck, more choices! :roll: (thanks tho') The Museum of Woodworking ones look awfully similar to this set from Axminster. Even down to the similarity between stock codes. I dunno though,
> Cheers, Alf



These are the exact same ones I have!!!! I like 'em loads

Feel free to come over to chez Tony and try them out in my humble workshop


Tony


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## Chris Knight (29 Mar 2004)

Alf,
Just checked the angle on my chisels - it's 30 degrees. I use diamond stones to sharpen mine.


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## Philly (30 Mar 2004)

Alf,
So are you going for it?
Whats the outcome on the Japanese chisel front?
Philly :?


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## Alf (30 Mar 2004)

Philly":10bg90ga said:


> Alf,
> So are you going for it?
> Whats the outcome on the Japanese chisel front?
> Philly :?


Further confusion, what else? :wink: Also there's been an itsy-witsy teeny-weeny yellow polka-dotted spanner thrown in the works. I was working on the principle I'd get (at best) X amount of money for my birthday. Enough for one or two bits and pieces you see. Well blow me down if the generosity fairy hasn't been to stay and suddenly I have a tool budget that says "don't fritter me away on trifles". Obviously this is a Good Thing, but also a Bad Thing. Really I should be buying the raw materials to make myself a level workshop floor, so the chisel may -once again- get pushed down the "want to try list". But then again... Oooo, the agony of choice eh? :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Aragorn (30 Mar 2004)

But Alf, what's the point of having a level workshop floor, if you've got no japanese chisels to work with on it...........

....... OK - that's probably stretching it a bit. 


Still, you can justify anything with a bit of practice!

A


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## Chris Knight (30 Mar 2004)

If the floor is level it won't roll as far if you drop it..


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## Anonymous (30 Mar 2004)

The Oire Nomi stocked by Axminster are considered decent budget chisels - even DC mentions them in volume 1. Can't remember off the top of my head who makes them, but they're not the top end hand made jobs (well, I can remember, but can't remember how to spell it!). When/if you get them, remember to seat the hoop properly on the handle, else it'll make an 'orrible 'dink' noise when you hit it with a hammer . While you've got the hoop off, take the time to strip off the nasty finish on the handle too, and replace it with a decent finishing oil.

NEVER get ebony handles on Oire Nomi - the ebony should be reserved for paring chisels, not striking chisels (which is what the Oire stands for).

DC is currently, on his web-site, pointing to classic hand tools (http://www.classichandtools.com for his favourite professional quality Japanese Oire Nomi - the best sellers on that site are around 40-50 quid/chisel (set of 10 for 455 quid, I think)

If you're using a Japanese chisel on really tough hard woods, it's advisable to grind and hone the angle about 5 degree higher than you would on a 'normal' European chisel, due to the increased brittleness of the steel. Decent Japanese chisels are at about Rockford C 64-65, whereas Sorby has quoted their chisels at being around the 56-57 mark.

Honing can be done on anything - tormek, waterstone, arkansas stone, scary sharp, whatever.


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## Anonymous (30 Mar 2004)

Forgot to mention - I have one of those chisels as stocked by Axminster (didn't get it from them, but same maker) - Iroyoi or something like is the maker.

I have a small (3mm) one. It came with the business end ground at a skew, which would have been disappointing if I hadn't wanted it for cleaning up the corners of tight dovetails, where the skew is useful! The bigger chisels shouldn't have this problem - I suspect the problem was caused by the narrowness; certainly honing it is awkward.


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## Alf (30 Mar 2004)

Aragorn":wd1jgtxo said:


> Still, you can justify anything with a bit of practice!


Preachin' to the choir, man, preachin' to the choir... :lol: 

Esp, good info, ta muchly. I did have a look at Classic Hand Tools, and came away with a definite feeling those chisels would be wasted on me as a taster.  Now the Axminster's though... Those would by the Iyoroi ones? (okay, so I had to look it up!). Hmm, better get out DC again and have another read.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (30 Mar 2004)

Yes Alf, the Iyoroi ones are what APTC stock (at least, looking from the pictures they are).


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## Alf (8 May 2004)

In case anyone was interested, or can even remember this far back  , I received a set of four chisels from Tilgear this afternoon. They were in the sale (or "sail" if you're from Cuffley :roll: ) so I took that as a sign - possibly a sign that even if they were pants it wouldn't be too great a disaster... :wink: Had fun cleaning off the gloopy lacquer from the handles and reseating the hoops, but now all sharpened and ready to go. So far, so good. Might take a bit of getting used to though. :shock: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (8 May 2004)

Alf,

Are you sure the gloop wasn't from all the cleaning up of your WH Smith box of goodies?

Technical correction: You were not reseating the hoops, you were seating them as they have never been seated until now..

We all complain about Chinese tools that need a lot of work before they are usable whereas with Japanese tools it is merely part of the mystique - I guess that's marketing!


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## Alf (8 May 2004)

waterhead37":oym8hmwf said:


> Technical correction: You were not reseating the hoops, you were seating them as they have never been seated until now..


Pedant  As it happens at least one _was_ reseated...  In fact they all came with the hoops on pretty tight; it was a job to shift 'em.



waterhead37":oym8hmwf said:


> We all complain about Chinese tools that need a lot of work before they are usable whereas with Japanese tools it is merely part of the mystique - I guess that's marketing!


You said it. I was thinking "what the heck am I doing buying a new tool that needs all this work?" even as I laboured. I suppose I should really have wrapped myself in a yak skin and sat at the top of Brown Willy* for a week first, just to be in the right frame of mind. :wink: 

Cheers, Alf

*Okay, who's that sniggering at the back? It's a _hill_ all right? 'Tis the highest round these, er, parts... (hmm, not the best choice of word maybe :? )


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## Anonymous (8 May 2004)

Alf - how did you reduce the girth of the handle to reseat the hoop? It's a part of Japanese chisels that's always given me grief, and I'm sure there must be better methods than what I use (engineers vice, tighten up to compress the wood, loosen, rotate chisel, repeat).

By the by, depending on what you plan with the chisels, the kinari chisels don't generally come with hoops - they're paring chisels, not designed to be hit with 'ammers. The Oire Nomi are really, in western hands, designed for clearing out the final waste from dovetails (after removing most waste with coping/piercing saw), where walloping with big 'eavy lump of metal is a must! So, if you're looking for decent paring, then the kinari are generally better suited - longer blades, for a start. Although the Oires do a good paring job too, if what I've been doing today was anything to judge!

You following DC's advice on sharpening? Filing the island on the haft of the blade? Probably too early to mention this, but I know Dingbat has an issue with DC's method of moving the San Mei back - DC says grind it back, Dingbat says beat it back. Hopefully you won't reach that need for years to come!


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## Alf (8 May 2004)

Esp,

I 'it it wiv an 'ammer :roll: I looked at DC's method, looked at the toolmaker's clamp in my pile of rust-to-be-removed tools, decided to avoid getting side-tracked (for once) and went for it. Probably using the vice would have been better... :? Although by the fourth one I was getting pretty good.

I'm okay for western paring chisels, so these Nipponese ones will have to really shine to get me thinking of buying some more! The edges on these ones are more like what I call bevelled firmers, so I'm not sure how much use they're going to be in tight spots such as between dovetails. We'll have to see. As for paring, they seem to take wafer thin shavings off end grain okay, so they'll have their uses. :wink: 

I can't see the back hollow being much of an issue on these. It's very shallow, and even my initial back flattening enlarged the flat are of the back considerably. Still, it's all very much a learning process for this newbie, so time will tell.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (8 May 2004)

'Itting wiv a 'ammer never seemed to work for me. Did you soak the hande first? Or mebbe your handles are different wood to mine? Mine mostly look white oak, and the 'ammer seems to just bounce off! Tried clamps, tightening to compress, but the clamp just slips off. Got some mole grips that I want to try instead of vice - should be quicker. Also got some plumbers adjustable wrenches that may work too! Sheesh, as mentioned by Waterhead, if these were tailed beasts I'd send them back as not finished!

Don't be fooled by the thickness of these blades Alf - don't ever be tempted to pry waste with 'em ('it 'em wit t'ammer, then lever), like you may with a firmer, cos what you'll be left with is some very nasty nicks in the hardened business end of the chisel, and you'll encounter the need to move the hollow back much quicker! The Jap mortice chisels are quite good in that respect, not the Oires - far too brittle, as I pointed out previously!

For cleaning dovetails - (teaching granny to suck eggs & all that, I know), clean waste to within about 0.5 - 0.3 mm from knife line on shoulder, position chisel in knife line, tilt to undercut, and wallop. In the corners between shoulders and pins, you're right - the Oires aren't right for that - too thick. There are some Jap chisels with a DT shaped cross-section (called Umeki nomi) for cleaning up those corners, although a skew ground European would probably be better. I wouldn't like to skew grind a Jap chisel cos of the hollow.


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## chiba (9 May 2004)

For setting the ring on the handle I just use the soak and hammer method, i.e. have a cup of water to stick the handle in, then when it's good and soaked hammer the handle sides on a hard surface (anvil ideally) and rotate as you do so. When you get to the point where the ring fits, then hold the chisel (don't rest it on anything) and hammer the outer edges of the handle working inwards until you create a nice mushroom. Keep dunking the end in the water to keep the fibres pliable. Takes a while, but works. On cheaper (relatively) chisels there's often some kind of varnish/sealer on the handle - it pays to strip it off before you start, at least from the end, as it inhibits water absorbtion.


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## Alf (9 May 2004)

Well I must have a very pursuasive hammer; no soaking, just tapping.  Lots of tapping. :roll: 

I know - no prying on pain of pain. (BTW, these eggs taste awful... :wink: :lol: )

Cheers, Alf


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## gidon (21 Nov 2005)

Alf - the latest Tilgear "Winter Offers" has the 4 pc set of Oire Nomi chisels again - (Aka Kashi?) How did you find these in the end - they are half the price of the equivalent from Axminster and I'm sorely tempted?
Ta,
Gidon


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## Alf (21 Nov 2005)

Gidon,

They were very good; I just didn't get on with the hollow in the backs. It's my (bad?) habit of using a wider chisel than the work demands; the edge of the work kept dropping into the hollow.  But they took a good edge, held it, and once I'd stripped and re-finished the handles, felt good in the hand. They're now in a new home, where I hope they'll bring chisel happiness. 

Cheers, Alf


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## martyn2 (21 Nov 2005)

:-k  \/


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## gidon (21 Nov 2005)

Thanks Alf - I'm trying to think whether that'd be a problem for me too :-k. Not sure I can resist at £30 though ....
Cheers
Gidon


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## Philly (21 Nov 2005)

Gidon,
I'm sure you'll enjoy their edge taking ability. And at £30....... :wink: 
And you did just finish a project!
Philly  
_Who loves beating the Bejesus out of his Jap chisels_


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## ByronBlack (22 Nov 2005)

Here's another newbie question:

Other than being harder and brittle, what is the advantage of using a Jap chisel over a euro chisel?

I've got a set of 1101 Kirschens - and love them, but there bevels are a little strong - almost firmer like, and I was looking at some of the japanese dovetail chisels as the kirschens can sometimes be a bit too bulky for dovetailing.

And, if japanese chisles are more brittle, is there the same worry of chipping with the mortice chisels - or are these softer?

Apologies if this is hijacking the thread, but thought it be better than starting another similar one.


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## Anonymous (22 Nov 2005)

All chisels are good


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## Philly (23 Nov 2005)

BB
The Japanese make a variety of different styles of chisel-paring, mortise, dovetail, striking, etc. Different tools for different jobs. I find the edge a Jap chisel will take is very, very sharp. And it holds that edge for a long time!
I've been testing the mortise chisels and not found the edge chipping that the regular chisels seem to suffer from if mis-used.
As PP says, they inspire you to greater work as these tools are of a highly evolved nature and work amazingly well. Give them a try, but be prepared to learn the differences from Western chisels and how to use 9and tune) them best.
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Alf (23 Nov 2005)

PeterPan":17wkb5f3 said:


> Japanese chisels are the most perfect there are.


In your opinion...



PeterPan":17wkb5f3 said:


> - purpose of hollow backs is to allow you to polish both sides of the edge with every sharpening, therefore better edges. You want something perfectly polished both sides without deflecting the edge excessively, you need roughly equal surface areas to polish.
> 
> Western response: power buffs.


Come again? Funny, I can polish the back on my Western chisels and I've never owned a power buff in my life. Not that I'd use it for the back anyway, 'cos it'd likely round it (are you listening Henry Taylor?)



PeterPan":17wkb5f3 said:


> - corpulent iron shanks, that don't buzz like a misshit cricket bat with every blow of the hammer.
> 
> WR: cutesy turnings, even on mortising thug chisels (the Germans get it) and long blades that wobble with every hit. Butt chisels that, oddly, can't get any respect.


Huh?



PeterPan":17wkb5f3 said:


> - Angle to chisel backs that allows one to pare without handle interference. Secret function is it reduces chisel walk and diving.


So does a nice long length of steel blade. :wink:



PeterPan":17wkb5f3 said:


> - Socket and hoop system, of blade attachment, it works well.
> 
> WR: I like sockets just as well when they are well executed. One of my premium american socket chisels split, no idea why.


What is it with this irrational dismissal of tanged chisels? That ruddy FWW article had the same crazy bias. For every tanged chisel I see without a handle, I must proportionaly see half a dozen handless socket chisels - but luckily I don't see many of them at all. The only new chisel handle I've ever had come off was, funnily enough, a Japanese one... :lol:



PeterPan":17wkb5f3 said:


> Laminated construction


Have you any idea how many laminated blades were produced in Sheffield? I can lay my hands on a dozen without breaking sweat. It's _not_ a clever Japanese-only thing.

Seems to me, most of the joys of Japanese chisels revolve around them being made from the smallest amount of tool steel they could get away with and trying to make that a feature, rather than a drawback. However, I'm sounding as biased against them as PP is sounding for them, although I'm not particularly, so I'll shut up.

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (23 Nov 2005)

I thought DC was a big fan of this company.

http://www.shokunin.com/

BugBear


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## ByronBlack (23 Nov 2005)

It seems like the plane discussion, this one too has a heated cross-section of opinions, which I think is great, afterall this is a discussion forum. But doesn't help me in my quest to really understand the clear advantage of using the Japense Chisel over the western.

So far my findings (bearing in mind i've not used the jap stuff yet) is that the clear difference is in the construction and hardness of the blades, so it seems the weigh-up comes down to:

Western - softer, but less prone to chipping, but more versatile, requires more often sharpening.

Eastern - harder and sharper, but more prone to chipping and therefore not as versatile, but requires less often sharpening.

So I guess it then comes down to technique, if I as a user of chisels use them in such a way that I clear the waste with a bevel-edge, I don't have to worry as much with the western blade of chipping it, but I have to be more careful with the japanese, but it will be a sharper cut. So there needs to be a slight adjustment with technique.

I think what I will probably do, is try and get hold of a couple of the japanese mortice chisels and perhaps a couple of their dedicated dovetailers to see how I get on. I think its going to take something quite special to wrench me away from my beloved Kirschens.


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## Alf (23 Nov 2005)

ByronBlack":1wod0s9t said:


> But doesn't help me in my quest to really understand the clear advantage of using the Japense Chisel over the western.


Sorry, Byron.  I reckon the biggest advantage is you have a much higher likelihood of getting a decent, basic, edge-holding chisel for less money with the Japanese ones. But that's of zero use if you're a terminal "pryer". :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## ByronBlack (23 Nov 2005)

Alf, i guess the issue there is how sharp is sharp enough?

Looking at the price of good japanese chisels seem more expensive than the kirschens that I currently use, so to get a better edge than i'm used to i'm actually looking at something more expensive.

Saying all that though, i'm definitly going to try some just out of curiosity, and general tool-lust ;-)


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## Alf (23 Nov 2005)

ByronBlack":1ch49n03 said:


> good japanese chisels seem more expensive than the kirschens that I currently use


Ah, but it's a matter of debate whether you need a "good" Japanese chisel to get as good, or better, an edge as on the Kirschens. Try a cheap one and see what you think.

Cheers, Alf


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## Wiley Horne (23 Nov 2005)

Just a few random thoughts on Byron's questions, and decision to wade into the Japanese chisel waters maybe ankle deep, and check it out... 

Thought 1: Regarding the dovetail chisels, triangular section ('shinogi'), you can obtain these oire style with striking rings and bench chisel length, approx. 9". Or you can obtain them as paring slicks, approx. 14" long with no striking ring. These are often called 'push chisels' in the US, and I don't know how they are marketed in the UK. But in any case, which to get? If you're in the habit of sawing the waste from the sockets (as opposed to chopping it out), I suggest trying the 14" shinogi style paring slicks. Since I began sawing the waste, I would say 90% of everything I do with chisels (except mortises) is done with these slicks. They are just wonderful, IMO. And objectively--well, so far as anybody's opinions on tools are objective--that striking ring up there at the top of the handle sits proud of the wood, and in my experience it can begin to chew up the heel of your hand if the chisel is used for paring for any length of time. 

Thought 2: Regarding which price range of Japanese chisels to shop in....The Japanese tool market is pretty much opaque to westerners. I mean, you can find out precisely the materials content and method of manufacture of a Kirschen or Ashley Iles or Lie-Nielsen chisel. This isn't the case with Japanese tools--at least for most of us. So you depend on the dealer. That's all you can do. So I would strongly suggest that Byron, or anyone else considering the same decision, get in touch with a knowledgeable UK dealer (such as the one Bugbear pointed to) and talk over what you're trying to do with them. For example, if you're considering a mortise chisel, you want to ask if there is side relief or not. And how much. You want to know if the cutting steel is forged onto the backing so that it wraps up nicely around the sides--this steel does a lot of the cutting for you, especially in a mortise chisel. You want to know, at least over the phone if you can't get to the dealer's store to have the wares in your hand--what is his opinion of the quality and balance of the various brands. If it's a slick, you want to know something about how the brands vary in regard to hand relief. Have this conversation with the dealer--if you make a straight mail order purchase of a store brand Japanese chisel, there is just no clue as to what you're getting. So I'm suggesting that the best risk to take is to trust a knowledgeable dealer. Ask the dealer if he will hand-select your order and inspect the welds, etc. You may end up paying more than you had planned, but that's better (IMO) than ending up with really poor gear and feeling like a chump.

Thought 3: I have a shop full of Japanese steel, and it gets mega-sharp, but I don't think it gets any sharper than O1 or cast steel, or even the alloyed western steels if you pick an adequate sharpening abrasive. 

Well, that's it. Good hunting! Wiley


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## Anonymous (24 Nov 2005)

...


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## MikeW (24 Nov 2005)

> Thought 3: I have a shop full of Japanese steel, and it gets mega-sharp, but I don't think it gets any sharper than O1 or cast steel, or even the alloyed western steels if you pick an adequate sharpening abrasive.


Oh this is a bit of sanity in a sea of BS.

Japanese chisels, English chisels, German chisels, Nearlyanywherechisels...who cares?

There are good tools and rubbish tools made and sold everywhere. My advice is to determine how much you are willing to spend, how much effort you wish to expend, whether occidental or oriental and then either purchase vintage chisels (effort to expend, time to get, but great value), or buy the best new ones in your price range and within your geographical proclivity.

Mike
the grump


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## ByronBlack (24 Nov 2005)

> What did you think I thought you would think I thought who's though it was?



I think that is a great tongue-twister, seriously PP you really know how to confuse the issue!

Seriously though, I think some of your sly attacks on alf in the post are somewhat un-called for, and your implied condemnation of sheffield laminated steel as 'English Industrial Junk' shows as much ignorance on your part as you in someways tend to imply of others.

And as an aside, I don't see anyone 'slag the small shop artisan'.



> But maybe a person who really can't tell the difference between expert hand work and machine stamped garbage, who really is "tone-deaf", should just keep quiet about it.



I'm sorry peter, but that is just rubbish. You don't know fully Alf's experience or competence so to imply that she might not know the difference between good work and 'machine stamped garbage' again shows a somewhat ignorant attitude on your part. And more importantly, everyone is entitled to voice their opinion whether they maybe expert or not.


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## Anonymous (24 Nov 2005)

...


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## MikeW (24 Nov 2005)

Peter,

I would be the first one to buy you a cup of coffee (or would you prefer tea?) and sit and jabber away the day concerning wood work. I would love it I'm sure.

So take this in that spirit. You often do not make a lot of sense. Perhaps I'm slow. You make a lot of pronouncements in a "voice" that says only you have the answers, that only your choice of tools is right.

This is the last of my posts on this subject. 

I wish you the best and perhaps one day I can buy you a cup of your favorite beverage and we can sit and talk.

Take care, Mike


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## Chris Knight (24 Nov 2005)

Putting on my mod's hat I reckon there is a danger of folk getting off the topic in this thread and into areas we would rather not explore. I should like to suggest enough has been said.


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## Alf (24 Nov 2005)

Sheesh, I miss all the good stuff while I'm asleep... :roll: 

I freely admit there's a whole heap more stuff I _don't_ know than stuff I do. I'm pretty sure that fact is clearly displayed on a regular basis, whether I intend to or not! :lol: Unfortunately I have a low tolerance threshold for anyone giving the impression that they know _everything_, intentionally or not. It's probably another character flaw of mine. Mike put it better than I, anyway.

It's important we all remember what we write may be taken as gospel truth by someone else; we've gotta be sure of what we're saying, have facts to back it up, or make it clear it's _just opinion_. Otherwise forums like this can become useless 'cos we won't know what advice to trust. (and my apologies; slipped into a bit of a forum ethos mode there. I'll get me coat. )

Cheers, Alf


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## woodshavings (24 Nov 2005)

Hi guys and gals !

Don't underestimate the value of the occasional "disagreement" in a forum such as this!!
I, for one, find it interesting and informative. It makes clear the various sides of opinion and issues and I value the forum members who take the time to post their thoughts. I don't think any do so with bad intent although the written word can sometimes seem harsher than the spoken word. Of course, there is no room for directed rudeness.

I also value the moderators who have a difficult time in keeping things from getting out of hand - thanks and well done mods !

Back on the subject of chisels - having read through this thread, I will skip the Japanese and a set of Kirschens are now on my Christmas list.  
For me the real challenge is to sort out my sharpening technique.  

Cheers

John


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## ByronBlack (24 Nov 2005)

John, I really don't think you'll be disapointed with kirschens, I really like them, hence i'm finding it hard to justify using a Japanese chisel in favour of them as it would mean changing my technique in quite a few ways, but i've orded a dovetail chisel to test out though.

If it helps, my personal sharpening technique for the kirschens was this:

1. Flatten the backs, I was lucky and most of them had a very slight hollow which made flattening them very quick and easy.

2. I used an 800 grit Japanese water stone to flatten the back and then to hone the bevel 

3. Moved it onto a 6000 grit waterstone to polish both sides, and then used a leather strop inpregnated with fine talcum powder to get a mirror finish.

I did find however that it took about two or three sharpenings to get them razor sharp, but since then they've held their edge really well.

PeterPan - am I right in thinking that you are condemning all of sheffield laminated steel as 'english industrial junk' or have I mis-read you?



> First I'm not entitled to my opinion, now everyone is. Make up your mind.



To be fair peter, i've never said at anytime nor do I believe anyone else has said you aren't entitled to your opinion. AND we are all passionate about hand-tools, but you do sometimes come across with a sense of self imposed superiority that can make it seem others aren't 'qualified' enough to argue with you as we aren't all artisan tool-makers.

But saying all that, I want you to realise this is just a discussion forum, and i've enjoyed reading your posts greatly whether i've agreed with them or not and I want to re-iterate what I said in another thread, and that I appreciate your contribution, and somewhere in there, there is information that is both interesting and useful. :lol: :lol:


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## ike (24 Nov 2005)

John,

Any particular reason for choosing Kirschens?. Just wondered as it's been mentioned they have a relatively chunky side profile. Have you considered Ashley Isles?. The sides are nice and slim - perhaps a little better for doing the dovetails? 

Just a thought. I'd class Kirchsens, AI etc all as 'good' quality (compared to the plastic-handled, chrome-vanadium brands). I do so like the handles on the AI's though (except for a spot of bother with ferrules, which AI are sorting out for me).



> Flatten the backs, I was lucky and most of them had a very slight hollow which made flattening them very quick and easy.
> 
> 2. I used an 800 grit Japanese water stone to flatten the back and then to hone the bevel
> 
> ...



Click! Exactly how I've sharpened the AI's and the results are spot on for me too.

cheers,

Ike


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## Alf (24 Nov 2005)

ByronBlack":25fxj0ud said:


> I did find however that it took about two or three sharpenings to get them razor sharp, but since then they've held their edge really well.


A similar comment came up on WC today/yesterday, although not in relation to the Kirschens:


James Watriss":25fxj0ud said:


> Dollar for dollar, for the steel you get, the swiss made chisels are an amazing bargain. You may have to grind back a little bit, because I think they buff some of the temper out of the blades when they polish them. I had issues with them at first, and that was something I was told by someone in relation to their carving gouges... that sometimes you had to go back a little bit to get to the "good steel." it held true, and now those chisels take a pretty damned good edge. For the money, that's really hard to beat.


Of course it brings up another alternative to consider: Pfeil. 

Happy to help, John. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## woodshavings (25 Nov 2005)

ike":1r1spu6h said:


> John,
> 
> Any particular reason for choosing Kirschens?. Just wondered as it's been mentioned they have a relatively chunky side profile. Have you considered Ashley Isles?.
> 
> Ike


 
Hi Ike, its a difficult one - I think I prefer the profile of the Kirschens but its not a scientific judgement.  The main thing is a chisel that will hold it's edge better than my existing Marples. 

Bryon, thanks for the sharpening advice - I'll use your technique and see how I get on!!  

John 

(whose hand dovetails are more like rats tails!)


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