# Let's discuss furniture design and fine work



## Jorny (21 Dec 2022)

In another thread on this forum conserning youtubers the discussion started to touch on the subject of good design.

Inspirered by this I thought I should start the christmas season with a few thoughts on this subject and maybe start a discussion on a few pieces. 

By profession and training I work with design. I work as an urban planner and have gone through architecture school and my Alma Mater focused on two things, the artistic process and sustainability. What I learned is that design is not a dark art. Drawing is not a talent. They are both skills that can be trained and learned. They are similar to reading and writing. Most people can learn to read and write, even though not everyone will become a Hemingway, Lagerlöf or Adiche. Most people can learn to design, even though not everyone will become the next Aalto, Mackintosh or Perriand. 

One thing I find interesting is that a lot of people are interested in learning how to do perfect joinery rather than learning to make pieces that are well designed and are more impressed by perfect dovetails than great design. There is nothing wrong with this, this is a hobby for most people and whatever makes you happy is ofcourse OK. The thing is though, that I would rather make something with an overall pleasing and well designed shape/proportions and a few dovetails with gaps (or whichever joint) than something that is perfect in details but with bad proportions.

In the other thread there was a link, and short discussion about a maker who seems extremely skilled. Everything seems to be carried out with perfect precision, but it leaves me cold. I found the designs overly busy with too many elements for my taste. 

One of Swedens greatest and influential artists and designers the last 200 years was Karin Larsson. She is mostly famous for her textiles which she carried out herself. They are absolutely brilliant. However, people more knowledgeable about textile art have pointed out that she was not always that concerned about that the parts of a weave that are not seen should be perfect. The rocking chair on top left image is a favourite of mine. It was designed and made in 1906. It is modernism years before modernism! It is chunky,blocky, stout but still elegant and very well proportioned. Playful and designed with a sense of humour. 












The next design I bring up as good example of design is the sofa we have at home, Träsoffa ("wood sofa") by Nirvan Richter. This is not a unique piece, it is a modern design classic that have been manufactured by the company Norrgavel since 1993. It is in many ways a post modern take on 18th and 19th century Gustavian era furniture as well as designs by Carl Malmsten. It is very much grounded in tradition and at the same time very much a design of the 1990's. 








As a continuation on the design by Richter I would like to show another Swedish classic, by Carl Malmsten. Another wooden sofa, and a stool from the same product line, Visingsö. Like all of Malmstens work, the lines and the proportions are exquisite. This is not advanced woodworking with complicated joints, showy veeneer or expensive wood. This is simple but not simplistic pine furniture that is very beautiful.









So, what are your thoughts about the pieces above? What do you like in a design, and what designs inspire you?


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## Bojam (21 Dec 2022)

Thanks for posting this Jorny. I’ll give it some thought and post when I have chance over the holidays.


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## Jameshow (21 Dec 2022)

Jorny said:


> In another thread on this forum conserning youtubers the discussion started to touch on the subject of good design.
> 
> Inspirered by this I thought I should start the christmas season with a few thoughts on this subject and maybe start a discussion on a few pieces.
> 
> ...


Love definitely what I like! Keep it coming. Might have a dig myself! 

Need to go back to Sweden with my woodworking hat on! 

Perhaps find a Swedish course and stay with the rellies!


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Love definitely what I like! Keep it coming. Might have a dig myself!
> 
> Need to go back to Sweden with my woodworking hat on!
> 
> Perhaps find a Swedish course and stay with the rellies!


Or Denmark.
Cycle touring a few years ago Rotterdam to Ejsburg and the first town in Denmark was Tonder - instantly distinctive sense of design and colour compared to Germany and discovered it was home town of Hans Wegner (if my memory serves me right!). Then spotted a furniture shop with a Rietveld Red & Blue chair in the window, which I'd never seen in the flesh before!
Another occasion we dropped in on the Copenhagen Finn Juhl house with the Zara Hadid gallery attached. Brilliant stuff.
I've got some snaps I'll dig them out.
I'm told it's the Sloyd craft training which helps make Scandinavian design what it is








Sloyd - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (21 Dec 2022)

Jorny said:


> By profession and training I work with design. I work as an urban planner and have gone through architecture school and my Alma Mater focused on two things, the artistic process and sustainability.



Jorny, by profession I am a psychologist, and not trained in design. On the other hand, my father was an architect and I was influenced by both the Mid Century furniture and house designs in his magazines, shared his love of wood, and we were surrounded by this in the house he designed for us. Here is a set of arm chairs he designed the late 1930's (set in my home) ...






Not by chance, I love and am attracted by the flowing lines of Maloof's rockers, but have not made one. I'm not sure that I want to do so - I've only ever copied one person's design (consciously), and that was Han's Wegner's "The Chair". I made this as a homage ...






Again, flowing lines and balance ...









Jorny said:


> One thing I find interesting is that a lot of people are interested in learning how to do perfect joinery rather than learning to make pieces that are well designed and are more impressed by perfect dovetails than great design.



The ability to do good joinery is a mark of a good furniture maker. But _how_ one make's a dovetail or a through-tenon will say more about the designer in one than the maker. Krenov used to say something similar. Joinery and design - it is not one or the other. But perhaps one needs to develop the ability to make before one is ready to execute a design?

Also, some of the simplest designs, such as the casework of Krenov, is misinterpreted by many aspiring makers as they do not understand or recognise the proportions. Proportion will make or break a design. Is this taught (with rules, such as the Golden one), or is it innate?

This chest of drawers is one of my favourite designs, which I designed and built for my favourite person, my wife. It features bow fronted drawers and tapered, curved sides ...






The design involved a careful selection of wood (as always) - Makore carcase and Jarrah drawers. Lots of fun componenets, such as a secret-locked jewellery drawer ...






.. and hidden mirror ...






A LOT of thought went into the joinery, with all the drawer blades attached with sliding dovetails. And I delighted in making these dovetailed drawers (all compound dovetails) ...






I really do not see how one can separate design and construction. And dovetails can form an essential part of a design. Here are pieces that display their dovetails, which are a part of the designs, and do not dominate (in my opinion):

Rounded and mitred dovetails in a coffee table ...






Similar construction for this side table, which was intended to be light and fun ...






Also lots of dovetails ...






Last one. A simple table for a friend ... which started as this monstrosity ...






The challenge was to turn a frog into a princess ...











With a hidden drawer ...







Untrained hobbiest.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> .......The ability to do good joinery is a mark of a good furniture maker. But _how_ one make's a dovetail or a through-tenon will say more about the designer in one than the maker. Krenov used to say something similar. Joinery and design - it is not one or the other.


Not sure I agree - I think design is tops by far. The ability to do good joinery is just the mark of a good joiner.


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## BucksDad (21 Dec 2022)

I have never studied art/design, so I don't know about any of the historical art/design movements and famous artists/designers.

Of current work I have found online, I love a lot of the work of Caleb Woodard. For example this one 

I like the pieces by Malmsten but the thought of sitting on a sofa with no cushions on the back doesn't feel that appealing. I really like the scandi designs of the 1900s, can anyone recommend a web site or book which shows and lists designers and their furniture from this era?


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## D_W (21 Dec 2022)

I may be chief complainer number one about design discussions, but I think a lot of what burdens us starts with the small things. 

if we're not professionally trained, design things are incremental, and it's not always trivial "oh, I know this now, so I'm good". 

what's not done, it seems, is "OK, I made this - how could it look better" and a request of "please, no talk about sanding or using a different method for dovetails". 

I would be chief offender number one if this kind of discussion was had going all the way down to things like moulding profiles - "anyone have any idea on how to make this moulding profile nicer for the piece?". 

I agree that the Pitts furniture was a little busy - it's sort of the style for that type, though. Fancy, and not function with integrated design 50/50. 

I needle over little things, like handles, and transitions of curves, and things, but learned probably 6-8 years ago that when I carefully made something, that is where it was like "OK, looks neatly made, but something doesn't look right about it". 

Warren Mickley in the US, a talented carver, but also jack of all trades for any hand work when there is paying work that he can beat a larger shop on mentioned that apprentices would've been taught design in a cabinetmaking shop at the same time they were learning the physical skills of making so that both would more or less mature at the same time (at least that's what I got). 

it never really catches on online. I think something people don't like is "I just made this piece and I'm OK with putting it up for praise, but I don't want any criticism" and objective looks at "how could it look a little better, which will help carry over to a lot of things that aren't just this piece" never occur.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2022)

BucksDad said:


> I have never studied art/design, so I don't know about any of the historical art/design movements and famous artists/designers.
> 
> Of current work I have found online, I love a lot of the work of Caleb Woodard. For example this one
> 
> I like the pieces by Malmsten but the thought of sitting on a sofa with no cushions on the back doesn't feel that appealing. I really like the scandi designs of the 1900s, can anyone recommend a web site or book which shows and lists designers and their furniture from this era?



Hmm, if that was mine I'd want to paint it and colour it all in!


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## Jameshow (21 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Not sure I agree - I think design is tops by far. The ability to do good joinery is just the mark of a good joiner.


Without good joinery you cannot execute good design, you can wreck it, but you cannot do it justice?


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## clogs (21 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen,
where did u find the time.....?
simply marvelous.....
terrific woods.....
I'd be happy to own any one of those, esp the drawer unit, n the woven single chair....
Have a good holiday.....


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## raffo (21 Dec 2022)

Design discussions can turn into some kind of philosophical argument. It may appeal to some, it may turn others off. As a hobbyist trying to make something, I would feel uncomfortable trying to imitate a contemporary artist/designer.

For design inspiration, I rather look in the direction of style, rather than personality. I like some aspects of Art Nouveau and Art Deco. I'm not a huge fan of modern furniture, too mass produced/assembly line look on some of that furniture. Bent plywood is not very attractive to me. My architect neighbor loves it, he has several nice and valuable examples in his home.

I find a Louis Majorelle chair very attractive, for example.


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## D_W (21 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Without good joinery you cannot execute good design, you can wreck it, but you cannot do it justice?



Most of us are hobby makers. I think the two go together - to be able to execute something so that it doesn't influence design negatively, and to be able to design something well so that we don't allow execution to dominate things. 

its kind of like music - sometimes a song doesn't need the musicians to dump everything they can do on their instruments in the middle of it. Sometimes that's the focus.


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## D_W (21 Dec 2022)

raffo said:


> Design discussions can turn into some kind of philosophical argument.



thus the idea to boil it down more to elements. otherwise, someone posts ball and claw and the next poster suggests only industrial design era stuff is suitable, because everything else is too showy. 

but a lot of us would benefit from "ghee, it could've used a moulding like ____" or smaller larger for an element, or oriented differently.


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## Ttrees (21 Dec 2022)

I suppose more of an interesting design rather than super skilled,
but it does have some nice bits, but also some quite odd parts.
Some videos of various chairs , aswell as some modern takes of it, if you youtube national museum of Ireland.


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## raffo (21 Dec 2022)

That's true, we can have endless discussions on what you like and what I like.

Technical discussions on how to execute a design, like what joints to use, that's an interesting discussion for a maker.

Take for example edge jointing, one planes the edges and glues them. Are there other options? how about if you don't want to use glue? Here's an example from Chinese joinery, a sort of sliding wedged mortise and tenon, no glue required.






I've seen on an old English book a cruder method where flat head screws are used, instead of tenons, to pull the boards together, glue was used.


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## Yojevol (21 Dec 2022)

The problem with this sort of discussion is that the subject matter is very subjective.
Take the sideboard above, I think it's hideous as a piece of artistic design but it is probably an excellent example of functional design. 
To take @Jameshow's point above, what if the design brief is 'there shall be minimal joinery? A slab of walnut on hairpin legs might meet the requirement for such a table and the end user might see it as a perfect design. 
Let's look at a particular design, @raffo 's example of a chair above. I agree that it is an impressive item to look at but I suspect it is only partially successful as a piece of functional furniture. The seat looks nice and comfortable but l wouldn't like to rest my spine against that flat splat for very long. 
So the answer to the question 'is it a good or bad design' can only assessed if you know what the design criteria are. 

Brian


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2022)

raffo said:


> ...
> 
> I've seen on an old English book a cruder method where flat head screws are used, instead of tenons, to pull the boards together, glue was used.


We were taught to do it; "slotted screw edge joint". Nothing crude about it.
It was used a lot but unnoticed as the screws remain out of sight until the thing is broken up. I've got a sample piece saved from a staircase I demolished. I wouldn't have noticed it except the edge jointed boards had slipped out of line but stayed together, which would only be possible with a slotted screw edge joint


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## TRITON (21 Dec 2022)

Jorny said:


> urban planner


I hope that doesnt include street furniture. God how I hate street furniture design.

Years ago, part of my usual bike run through Glasgow, the council installed these solid stone benches in a jet black marble type covering.
The road is pedestrian walkway but also open to traffic like deliveries, and bikes.

Im blasting down, 2 or 3am, some lighting but due to 'environment' its all low wattage. Yes I nearly cycled into one doing about 20+mph, its on a slight incline going down. And at that time of the morning i really blasted through, missed it by 6 inches. Scared the be-Jesus out myself. One week they were easy to see standard benched, the next invisible in the dark blocks of bloody mayhem.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Without good joinery you cannot execute good design, you can wreck it, but you cannot do it justice?


Well if you look at Jorny's first and last photo they both show very simple elegant designs with absolutely minimal joinery skill involved. And Ttree's Sligo chair.
Conversely there's some horrible stuff made with very competent joinery. Good joinery doesn't guarantee good design.
In some traditions the mere appearance of simplicity requires quite sophisticated joinery to put together - Japanese, arts n crafts, etc which is a bit of a contradiction.


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## Terry - Somerset (21 Dec 2022)

A few years ago I visited Hill House, the home of Rennie Mackintosh. I was completely taken by the designs he created and as a lockdown diversion sought to make a copy of one of his coffee house chairs (apologies for the rubbish photo).







As a very amateur hobbyists I am very aware that if I made another it would be rather better - but I was quite pleased with the end result.

But reading this thread forces the question - what is good design. There are a range of opinions from those who would furnish their home with Victorian, or 1950s Ercol and utility derived, or Scandinavian simple, or Shaker, etc etc. Is there a common thread running across all design or are they only capable of judgement within their particular group.

It also seems that joinery skill is necessary for all quality design. But if approaching design from a joinery perspective there seems a risk of adornment as proof of craftsmanship rather than a fundamental design attribute.

On a more personal level - I am very appreciative of what I would call the "4 star hotel" school of design. General attributes - simple lines, functionally effective, robust, easy to clean and maintain, good quality materials - and if aesthetically pleasing gets a tick in the box!


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## raffo (21 Dec 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> A few years ago I visited Hill House, the home of Rennie Mackintosh. I was completely taken by the designs he created and as a lockdown diversion sought to make a copy of one of his coffee house chairs (apologies for the rubbish photo).



I think your chair looks great.

This reminds me, many moons ago, when my dad would come and visit, he would make some furniture for us to pass the time. He made Mackintosh and Charles Rohlfs reproductions at our request. Not the most comfortable chairs, but they are nice to look at.

This is the Mackintosh chair, not the one he made, I don't have a picture of it with me, he made it in white oak. Each horizontal piece is curved, all the joints are mortise and tenon.






These are the Charles Rohlfs chairs he made, in purpleheart.


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## Jameshow (21 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Well if you look at Jorny's first and last photo they both show very simple elegant designs with absolutely minimal joinery skill involved. And Ttree's Sligo chair.
> Conversely there's some horrible stuff made with very competent joinery. Good joinery doesn't guarantee good design.
> In some traditions the mere appearance of simplicity requires quite sophisticated joinery to put together - Japanese, arts n crafts, etc which is a bit of a contradiction.


I agree often good design is a encouragement to simple woodworking. 

Something like the adirondack chair for instance. 
Or the simple farmhouse table.


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## Dibs-h (21 Dec 2022)

Interesting thread.

It's a bit like the same\other gender - some like them slim, some like them round, some like them short & some like them tall.  

And then there's the other "category" - "it's nice, but not for me." LOL

On a serious note - whilst design and execution are 2 things, sadly no one remembers who made\built a whole host of things, but many remember who designed them.

Keep the post coming - nice to see stuff I may not normally see.


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## John Brown (21 Dec 2022)

I really don't see how there can be any absolutes for what looks nice or what looks hideous. I find all the pieces Derek Cohen pictured earlier pleasing to look at, except for the coffee table, which I find distinctly unpleasant. Functionality, for me, is paramount, good craftsmansship is slightly more debatable, I suppose, but beauty is totally subjective. As I said somewhere else, I believe certain forms that resemble nature are often perceived as attractive, and that, I guess, includes the golden ratio, but it's hard to take fashion out of the equation.
Not that I actually make anything, but I still get to have an opinion.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> I really don't see how there can be any absolutes for what looks nice or what looks hideous.


There never have been any absolutes.....

Golden ratio is a bit of a myth too.

The main reason for studying design is that if you don't you may be trying to reinvent the wheel as it were. Whatever you are doing the chances are someone else had similar thought processes so it could be worth having a gander to see how it went.
Also copying is a basic learning technique and always has been.
If in doubt copy; avoid attempting to be creative unless there is no alternative.


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## mikej460 (21 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I agree often good design is a encouragement to simple woodworking.
> 
> Something like the adirondack chair for instance.
> Or the simple farmhouse table.


But even Adirondack chairs vary in design, all tend to look similar but some are more comfortable than others - so 'form over function' comes to mind. However, I would offer that if you really like the look of a piece of, basically impractical, bordering on unusable, furniture that looks like a work of art e.g. the chairs above, then both it's form and function are satisfied.

On the other hand I have always liked original Shaker furniture, which are designed to be ultimately practical but also beautifully designed and made.

I can just as easily covet a piece of furniture that has been designed to be usable and is well made, as much as a piece that sits in a room, unusable, but looking beautiful in it's design - a work of art on par with a painting.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Or Denmark.
> Cycle touring a few years ago Rotterdam to Ejsburg and the first town in Denmark was Tonder - instantly distinctive sense of design and colour compared to Germany and discovered it was home town of Hans Wegner (if my memory serves me right!). Then spotted a furniture shop with a Rietveld Red & Blue chair in the window, which I'd never seen in the flesh before!
> Another occasion we dropped in on the Copenhagen Finn Juhl house with the Zara Hadid gallery attached. Brilliant stuff.
> I've got some snaps I'll dig them out.
> ...


Spotted this in street market in Tonder


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (22 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> I really don't see how there can be any absolutes for what looks nice or what looks hideous. I find all the pieces Derek Cohen pictured earlier pleasing to look at, except for the coffee table, which I find distinctly unpleasant. Functionality, for me, is paramount, good craftsmansship is slightly more debatable, I suppose, but beauty is totally subjective. As I said somewhere else, I believe certain forms that resemble nature are often perceived as attractive, and that, I guess, includes the golden ratio, but it's hard to take fashion out of the equation.
> Not that I actually make anything, but I still get to have an opinion.



John, I agree that beauty is subjective. Also that there is no formula. But this indicates that we are doing something with our eye and brain to decide what is "right" or desirable.

Let's take that coffee table (No offence taken on my side). There is a back story that is relevant in the context of this discussion as what you saw was my interpretation of a design that was given to me. The request came from a nephew to build a particular design as a wedding present (I offered to make him something). This is what he and his (now) wife requested ...






They understood little about materials and construction. They just liked this design. My reaction was "ugh" (privately), and I responded that it was build from plywood and veneer, and they really would prefer solid wood if the piece was to last. Also, while not obvious (to them) in the photo, the rounded corners were separate sections, and the result was discontinuous and fussy to my eye. We agreed that I would find a way to build the rounded corners (which they liked so much) using solid wood and turning them into a feature (without this being dominating).

Design and construction come together. This is another view angle ...











I should add that I do not generally build with dramatic figured woods. It is too busy for my taste. I like interesting figure, but it needs to fit with the piece, complement it, and not dominate. The timber here dominates. They loved this as it emphasises the waterfall design.



John Brown said:


> ... Functionality, for me, is paramount....



Here is a set of three stools I designed, influenced by Wharton Escherick. I just love the free-form seats he made. In my design I also focussed on the rungs. Escherick just saw them as supports. I chose to set them at different heights to match the leg length of all those using the seats. The seats became three-cornered to link to the rungs ...





















The timber chosen is USA Hard Maple. This was to match the Maple kitchen I built.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jester129 (22 Dec 2022)

Design and functionality should go hand in glove. The designer should be designing for the client, whether the client is right or wrong. Both designer and client need to agree on the item (even if the designer doesn't _*totally*_ agree with the client).
The first photo on the thread shows a rocking chair that several have stated they like. Me? Mmm, not so sure. How many of us would be able to use said rocking chair without a considerable amount of help to get in and out of it? It isn't practical, but if the client is happy then all is good.
I'm glad I'm not the client in this case, but again we are all different so are all allowed our own thoughts, likes and dislikes., thank God.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Jester129 said:


> Design and functionality should go hand in glove. The designer should be designing for the client, whether the client is right or wrong. Both designer and client need to agree on the item (even if the designer doesn't _*totally*_ agree with the client).


t'other way around. A designer is supposed to do what's best for the client even if he/she doesn't quite get it. Just like any other trade.


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## Jorny (22 Dec 2022)

A lot of interesting posts in this thread!

Derek Cohen,
What I am trying to point out is that design is a skill that can be practised. And I think it is quite obvious that you have learned some design skills along the way! I have done extremely little furniture design, and when it comes to furniture I am an amateur. What I have learned from architecture and my training that can be applied to woodworking is to discuss design think about design, and most of all, not to be afraid of the subject. I think in a way that just figuring out what you like and why you like it is the most important part.

Your chest of drawers and the "remade" table are my favourites among the work you show. The chest of drawers has good proportions, tasteful use of wood and display of joinery. There is a show of skill without showing of. And your fathers chairs from the 1930's are good example of modernism at it's best. They have very nice lines.





Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Also, some of the simplest designs, such as the casework of Krenov, is misinterpreted by many aspiring makers as they do not understand or recognise the proportions. Proportion will make or break a design. Is this taught (with rules, such as the Golden one), or is it innate?


The issue of proportions is both, I think, innate and something to learn and practise. There are a lot of different rules and there are different proportional systems used in different culture (even though there is a lot of overlap). Rules can be a teaching guide, and tool in a toolbox, but if you work a lot with design I think a lot of this just becomes a part of the process. Sometimes different rules of proportions can be used to "straighten up" a rough sketch that looks slightly off. On the other hand I think the most important rule is "If it looks alright, it is alright."


BucksDad said:


> I have never studied art/design, so I don't know about any of the historical art/design movements and famous artists/designers.
> 
> Of current work I have found online, I love a lot of the work of Caleb Woodard. For example this one
> 
> I like the pieces by Malmsten but the thought of sitting on a sofa with no cushions on the back doesn't feel that appealing. I really like the scandi designs of the 1900s, can anyone recommend a web site or book which shows and lists designers and their furniture from this era?







It ususally has cushions! I just wanted to show of the beautiful back. I'll get back to you If I figure out any good books on the subject.



D_W said:


> I may be chief complainer number one about design discussions, but I think a lot of what burdens us starts with the small things.
> 
> if we're not professionally trained, design things are incremental, and it's not always trivial "oh, I know this now, so I'm good".
> 
> ...



You make a lot of tools, and then the aesthetics are of a slightly different kind. It is even more tightly connected to function. And since many of the forms are so perfected for tools it is more a matter of working within a tradition. And then figuring out the little things like handles is a big thing. Also when it comes to tools I am reminded by a quote by the Swedish engineer Birger Ljungström who in 1913 was one of the founders of STAL, a manufacturer of turbines that later was bought by ASEA (now ABB). On the drafting tables of the engineers he put notes saying: "Is your construction unnecessarily ugly?"

I think that what Warren Mickley said could be applied to most hobbiysts as well. Sadly there are very few writers and "personalities" that talk about design and encourage woodworkers to learn that at the same time as they learn the other skills. And as Jacob says in this thread, copying and working with traditional forms and types of furniture is a great way to learn. 
I know that you are not fond of Christopher Schwarz, but he is one of the few "personalities" that in my mind have a good eye for design (especially when it comes to chairs) and actually tries to teach about it. 


D_W said:


> Most of us are hobby makers. I think the two go together - to be able to execute something so that it doesn't influence design negatively, and to be able to design something well so that we don't allow execution to dominate things.
> 
> its kind of like music - sometimes a song doesn't need the musicians to dump everything they can do on their instruments in the middle of it. Sometimes that's the focus.


Yes! I love both the Ramones and Prince. I think that the analogy is spot on when it comes to making things as well. It also is a good analogy to the idea that discussions about design boils down to "I like/you like". All work can be discussed from it's context, within it's genre so to speak. To speak in heavy metal terms, I hate Sabaton but love Black Sabbath. We can in furniture look at both contemporary as well as historicist work and look at them in their separate merits. River tables however I cannot tolerate as a genre...



Ttrees said:


> I suppose more of an interesting design rather than super skilled,
> but it does have some nice bits, but also some quite odd parts.
> Some videos of various chairs , aswell as some modern takes of it, if you youtube national museum of Ireland.
> 
> ...


Vernacular furniture is fantastic and inspiring, and it is what I would like to have more time making.



Jacob said:


> Well if you look at Jorny's first and last photo they both show very simple elegant designs with absolutely minimal joinery skill involved. And Ttree's Sligo chair.
> Conversely there's some horrible stuff made with very competent joinery. Good joinery doesn't guarantee good design.
> In some traditions the mere appearance of simplicity requires quite sophisticated joinery to put together - Japanese, arts n crafts, etc which is a bit of a contradiction.


Yes!


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

A useful intro to furniture design could be "1000 Chairs": Sit pretty: 1000 Chairs. Bibliotheca Universalis. TASCHEN Books
Not to be confused with 500 chairs which is a tedious trudge through "post modern" extravaganza
My favourite on vernacular is Irish Country Furniture


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## Tris (22 Dec 2022)

Interesting to see what happens when you ask for a redesign of such a well known item:









The winner of a new generation of electricity pylons is announced


With more than 88,000 pylons in the UK and a need for new transmission infrastructure, architects, designers, engineers and students came up with designs that balanced energy needs and visual impact




www.theguardian.com


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## Mal-110 (22 Dec 2022)

Some really interesting posts, I thought the "Princess from a frog" illustrated proportion really well. Some items like the tall ladder back chair are out of proportion but can "sit" very well in the right location and look stunning. I have actually sat on one and it feels to me more of an occasional chair and a demonstration piece.
What struck me about several posts was the coffee tables and this is why:-



















This is a coffee table I sort of designed without any prior knowledge of the pictures in previous posts. Its slightly taller than the low tables but fits where we wanted it to be. Its still a light Oak only completed in September. I read somewhere that handles dated a piece so I used cut outs for access to the drawers, which are not dovetailed. The odd grain and dovetails give some interest on the top. I added some old Bakelite self levelling feet and I think the add more interest and give extra stability. I was just taken aback when I saw the previous posts and I have no idea what influenced me to make this table in this way.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Mal-110 said:


> Some really interesting posts, I thought the "Princess from a frog" illustrated proportion really well. Some items like the tall ladder back chair are out of proportion but can "sit" very well in the right location and look stunning. I have actually sat on one and it feels to me more of an occasional chair and a demonstration piece.
> What struck me about several posts was the coffee tables and this is why:-
> View attachment 149578
> 
> ...


OK as a nice exercise in design and making.
Trouble is those screw on legs look like cheapo stuff from IKEA, which makes the carefully worked top look like overkill. Could say the same of Derek's similar offering!
I like screw on legs but I'd have them under a ply top with Formica.
If it was for me I would have done it as a trad table, 4 legs, aprons, nice top with 2 drawers.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> ...
> Trouble is those screw on legs look like cheapo stuff from IKEA, which makes the carefully worked top look like overkill. Could say the same of Derek's similar offering!
> ...



Jacob, what screw on legs? That is not something I have used.





















Perhaps you would show us something you have built to contribute to the discussion?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Jacob, what screw on legs? That is not something I have used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A finely worked coffee table _in the style of_ screw-on leg flat-pack furniture, whereas your stools like very traditional/minimalist and made in a practical way.


> Perhaps you would show us something you have built to contribute to the discussion?


Actually I'm just finishing off a pair of Reitveld Red & Blue chairs which I promised as Christmas presents last Christmas. The painting more of a problem than the making. Some clever details involved though, but zero display of craft skills. I'll post a photo later.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> A finely worked coffee table _in the style of_ screw-on leg flat-pack furniture ...








Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Inspector (22 Dec 2022)

Tris said:


> Interesting to see what happens when you ask for a redesign of such a well known item:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually the 7th picture down would fit the First Nations heritage of our prairie landscape since it resembles their teepees. Design can be heavily influenced by local history.

Pete


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Perhaps you would show us something you have built to contribute to the discussion?





Not an unreasonable question, but did cause me to laugh out loud a little bit!


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> A useful intro to furniture design could be "1000 Chairs": Sit pretty: 1000 Chairs. Bibliotheca Universalis. TASCHEN Books
> Not to be confused with 500 chairs which is a tedious trudge through "post modern" extravaganza
> My favourite on vernacular is Irish Country Furniture



There's nothing wrong with country furniture, but to be critical of derek's stuff and many other sort of blatant statements here and tout painted simplistic utility furniture is sort of like saying you like ethnic foods, and you're a foodie....especially "fine italian food like the pizza burger!"


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## COWS (22 Dec 2022)

This is a great thread. So much can be learned from discussing design ideas.

Derek, your coffee table is just my cup tea!  I'm nearing the end of a pair of nightstands of a similar design. And recently finished a contemporary console table. Modern furniture can look so simple due to the lack of ornate mouldings etc. But looks are often deceiving. The simpler the design, the more accurate the execution needs to be... nowhere to hide crappy joinery.


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## Mal-110 (22 Dec 2022)

I believe Jacob was initially referring to my screw on legs. Thats Ok, they are screw on I don't have a lathe and a very small workshop. I struggled to find suitable Oak legs, Its a hobby. We needed a coffee table and it fits the bill. I hadn't seen any of a similar design till I saw these posts and though it was rather a coincidence but perhaps design ideas sit in the back of the mind from some long forgotten recollection. I took the feet off an old table, they are from a company in England long since closed down "Armstrongs" They do a really good job and are easy to fit a give a little extra interest as well as a bit of recycling.


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## BucksDad (22 Dec 2022)

Nice build @Mal-110

Coffee tables are an interesting design problem. I like a large lounge, if the coffee table is then in the middle of the lounge, you can't reach it to put your coffee on. If you have it close to the sofa/chair, it's then a pain to get in/out of the sofa and looks odd.
Inevitably coffee tables end up being used to play board games with friends / family - they can be an awkward height to sit down at. 

Then there are lots of other choices - drawers, open shelves, glass top etc.

Right now we don't have a coffee table due to our kids and it getting in the way of their fun, but I look forward to having one again when they're older - hopefully built by me if I ever get my workshop finished


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## John Brown (22 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Jacob, what screw on legs? That is not something I have used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feel bound to say that the legs are mainly what puts me off Derek's coffee table. They remind me of some 60s/70s items. I'm sure they're not screw-on, and I am in total awe of his craftsmanship. It's merely a personal taste thing.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (22 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> I feel bound to say that the legs are mainly what puts me off Derek's coffee table. They remind me of some 60s/70s items...



I was hoping that they would remind you of some 50s/60s stuff ... that is typical Mid Century design 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## peter-harrison (22 Dec 2022)

When I worked as an antique restorer, I never had a bit of Mackintosh to repair. However, I knew someone who did, and he said that the quality was pretty shocking, lots of nails etc. However, they look fantastic and are some of the most valued pieces of furniture ever made in these isles.
I am very much into sustainability, and one aspect of this in furniture making and design is how long your pieces will last. The longer the better, obvs.
Quality of materials and craftsmanship is important, of course. But if no-one loves it, it will end up in landfill. If it's loved, people will keep it even if it's a bit wobbly!


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## John Brown (22 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Mal, s
> 
> 
> I was hoping that they would remind you of some 50s/60s stuff ... that is typical Mid Century design
> ...


We always had second hand stuff, so probably a decade behind the times.


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

Jorny said:


> I know that you are not fond of Christopher Schwarz, but he is one of the few "personalities" that in my mind have a good eye for design (especially when it comes to chairs) and actually tries to teach about it.



yeah, nothing to do with design in that case. He does a pretty good job of following decent designs and referring to people who are area experts when appropriate.


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## rogxwhit (22 Dec 2022)

peter-harrison said:


> I never had a bit of Mackintosh to repair. However, I knew someone who did, and he said that the quality was pretty shocking, lots of nails etc. However, they look fantastic and are some of the most valued pieces of furniture ever made in these isles.


He was a remarkable architect - but not a woodworker! The café chairs were style statements, and a beggar to sit on because obviously the backs are too upright. Perhaps to dissuade the Edinburgh ladies from lingering too long ...? 

Here's a modern British star, still going strong after many years: David Colwell – DESIGN CONSCIOUS


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

Jorny said:


> On the drafting tables of the engineers he put notes saying: "Is your construction unnecessarily ugly?"



this is an excellent story - and what's implied in it is that something good is being given away for no reason. I've noticed engineers over the years on the US forums have sort of a dismissive attitude. 

"that could be better engineered". 

"the steel now is superior to anything old, and everything old is inconsistent". 

"A2 steel is better than the steel used in English tools"

And so on. 

And it usually comes with a disregard for the aesthetics of things as being unimportant. People look at things, and they feel things and conscious or not, most are influenced by the look and feel of things and will develop preferences. And perhaps even get pleasure out of something they're not consciously thinking about, or be rubbed the wrong way. 

I have a degree in mathematics. I almost never think of quantifying or qualifying something that can be later quantified and being dismissive of what is demonstrably preferable just because it's pleasing to us, or some of us. 

In my reporting documents, I often think of how they can be laid out simpler but not so simple that anything is lost, and as time has gone on, this has become the norm. Fortunately. When I started, a lot of the applied mathematics professions had an old guard of "we can make it sloppy, it's only the answers that matter". 

Well, except engineers are undoubtedly not making things only for other engineers, and my clients are rarely not external users. 

If incrementally including, considering, improving design elements isn't part of the process of making, something is lost. I didn't see that at first, and it was easy to pretend because the first few steps are a really steep incline that you could ignore it forever, but at some point everyone will make something really well and then see that it's still ugly. And other people will see it, too. 

15 years ago, I was not at all wired to think like this - everything was utility. Now even something as simple as grinding curvature in the top of a bevel edge chisel both for function and to get rid of the staleness of flat planes only on manufactured tools is pleasing, to look at it, and see it go from "eh...not quite" to I can't see it better than that is a pleasure, and even if it's somewhat self taught and learned, the skill gets better faster and it's less "first level thought" and more feel.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> We were taught to do it; "slotted screw edge joint". Nothing crude about it.
> It was used a lot but unnoticed as the screws remain out of sight until the thing is broken up. I've got a sample piece saved from a staircase I demolished. I wouldn't have noticed it except the edge jointed boards had slipped out of line but stayed together, which would only be possible with a slotted screw edge joint


This is the board. Was a step.





Then I saw it had slipped sideways which means only one possibility - slotted screw edge joint















There was a trace of glue but must have been washed away by damp etc.

It's quite practical:
Start with some sturdy screws screwed in with just an inch or less out, these were 12 gauge
Drill holes to match screw heads, but offset.
Chop a slot the width of the shank
Put the two boards together with screws in the holes
With one board in the vice knock the other board to drive it and the screws along the slot
Then here comes the clever bit:
Knock it back again and separate. 
Tighten the screws by half to one turn
Put the boards together again, with glue, and hammer them into line again
What is supposed to happen here is that the screw heads re-engage the cut the head makes in the side of the slot first time around, but pulls tighter, as you have just tightened the screws.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> A finely worked coffee table _in the style of_ screw-on leg flat-pack furniture, whereas your stools like very traditional/minimalist and made in a practical way.
> 
> Actually I'm just finishing off a pair of Reitveld Red & Blue chairs which I promised as Christmas presents last Christmas. The painting more of a problem than the making. Some clever details involved though, but zero display of craft skills. I'll post a photo later.


Work in progress.
The design is from this book. It gives a lot of detail and history, with "correct" measurements and variations.
Believe it or not they are quite comfortable. I guess you need to be not far off Reitveld size!
I've nailed the back and seat with copper roofing nails instead of the books recommended screws, which don't look nice. Apparently Reitveld nailed them originally.
The frame is quite sophisticated with 16mm dowels at each crossing. Because of the layout they lock where three cross over.
I've got to touch up the enamel colours where necessary and then follow up with the black water based last as it will be easy to clean from the enamel.
Then wax polish the black.





























Gerrit Rietveld - Dutch designer and architect


Learn about the life and work of Dutch designer and architect Gerrit Rietveld. Find out what inspired his work and his role within the De Stijl art movement.




www.holland.com


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## Molynoox (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Work in progress.
> The design is from this book. It gives a lot of detail and history, with "correct" measurements and variations.
> Believe it or not they are quite comfortable. I guess you need to be not far off Reitveld size!
> I've nailed them with copper roofing nails instead of the books recommended screws, which don't look nice. Apparently Reitveld nailed them originally.
> ...


It's very Mondrian.


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## niall Y (22 Dec 2022)

I often look at furniture in magazines, by furniture-maker/ designers. and I am often dismayed, by how bad the designs are. Much of it is showing-off technical skills that aren't necessarily needed for the piece to be functional or pleasing . There is often a compulsion to throw everything into the mix.

Design can be taught, and you can usually tell those who have had training. And then there are those who seem naturally able to design things, that turn out to be, both pleasing to look at, and functional. Much as the photographer Henri Cartier-Bresson was able to take photographs, as a child, that far surpass the snap-shots that most of us will ever take

The designer doesn't have to be the skilled maker either. The architect , Ernest Gimson. employed others to make his furniture. no doubt aware of the limitations of his own abilities and the economics of the situation. But his designs , combined with the skills of someone like Peter van der Waals I find to be truly exceptional.

Laying aside some of those elements of good furniture design, such as: fitness of purpose, or following a clients brief - the one that strikes you first is the look. - even before you have walked across the room.
When we are making anything there is often a failure to ''see the wood for the trees' And being blind, to how something truly looks, can be a real problem. I find that, that first glance you give a piece, in the morning when you open up the workshop, is invaluable. If something doesn't look right - then change it - no amount of verbal justification will make it any better.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Molynoox said:


> It's very Mondrian.


As I expect you know!  Mondrian recommended the colours. Reitveld's first versions were wood finished


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

niall Y said:


> ....The architect , Ernest Gimson. employed others to make his furniture. no doubt aware of the limitations of his own abilities ....


Of course he did. Simple division of labour.
But it helps if each knows as much as possible about the others' trades.
When skilled woodworkers are not aware of the limitations of their design abilities you hit the same problem. I name no names!
Which is why it's always good, if in doubt, to copy rather than to expect some sort of natural ability to emerge


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

niall Y said:


> The designer doesn't have to be the skilled maker either.



I think this is a modern online thing, to believe that someone is soup to nuts. We're trying to be that as much as we can be as hobbyists so as to get all of the experiences we can and not get cheated out of anything. But specializing and speed and need for what a pro is good at more than them doing something they're superb at and five things they're good at probably prevents it. 

Warren Mickley in the states pointed me to a piece that he did the carving on. it's wonderful. He didn't make the whole piece of furniture as far as I know because the person paying him was probably the maker, and then he said "the finisher ___" to explain the effect that a finisher did, which I thought was interesting. 

It would take me five years of hobby carving to duplicate what he did and I don't have the stomach to give up other things, but it did kind of give a hint of "if you want the piece to look like this and you do all of it, realize that you're trying to learn to do the fine skills of probably at least three different professionals". 

which leads back to the simple things - the proportion, the understanding of some of the little details and most of all, just avoiding a big easy to avoid issue with the looks of something - which will happen on its own with little trimming and learning here or there. Except that kind of thing is almost completely missing from the forums. 

----

I agree with what you say about the stuff in magazines - and some of what I've seen around here in historic houses and tourist attractions where makers are allowed to more or less loan their recent pieces until they sell. A lot of it looks different, which I think is the draw - to be able to have something unique. There are a few extremely wealthy families here who specialize in finding and preserving very fine furniture, and they aren't the buyers of that.


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Work in progress.
> The design is from this book. It gives a lot of detail and history, with "correct" measurements and variations.
> Believe it or not they are quite comfortable. I guess you need to be not far off Reitveld size!
> I've nailed the back and seat with copper roofing nails instead of the books recommended screws, which don't look nice. Apparently Reitveld nailed them originally.
> ...



Sort of a random question here, but is Newman an English surname?


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Photo here of Reitveld sitting in a version of his chair (note the draught excluders) with all his mates 'avin a fag!
He looks a bit like Frank Zappa? Or is it Che? Trotsky?


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## Jameshow (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Work in progress.
> The design is from this book. It gives a lot of detail and history, with "correct" measurements and variations.
> Believe it or not they are quite comfortable. I guess you need to be not far off Reitveld size!
> I've nailed the back and seat with copper roofing nails instead of the books recommended screws, which don't look nice. Apparently Reitveld nailed them originally.
> ...


Sorry but has anyone a pair of sunglasses I can borrow!


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## rogxwhit (22 Dec 2022)

I think that the best design is a kind of distillation. The Rietveld chairs are that. So are Colwell's, which are also very functional. But design needn't be wholly led by function - it can equally be a cultural statement. If I think of a lot of Victorian furniture, ponderous and covered in knobs and dark stain - that isn't distilled, its statement is materialistic.


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> I think that the best design is a kind of distillation. The Rietveld chairs are that. So are Colwell's, which are also very functional. But design needn't be wholly led by function - it can equally be a cultural statement. If I think of a lot of Victorian furniture, ponderous and covered in knobs and dark stain - that isn't distilled, its statement is materialistic.



Without knowing it, I saw one of Rietveld's chairs in the local museum collection here. I wondered what was notable about it and still do, but maybe it required being alive in the 30s and knowing some social undertones or harmonics. 

I'm not a huge protector of intellectual capital for things that are simple and a reading of wiki finds that the chair was knocked off commonly after that. It's hard to get that upset about such things. 

Victorian era stuff around here tends to be sometimes overly decorative without necessarily being natural in proportion. I'm out of context there, too - some of it is quite nice, but it has the "I can buy this" vibe - it has to be done at a skill level and cost that makes for a very English message - one class makes it, another class buys it. And there's not a whole lot of overlap. 

it also leaves me with the kind of thought of "well, if you watered down French furniture from a couple of hundred years before...but then, haven't the English always been trying to catch up to Continental Europe as far as technology and arts go, anyway?"


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## Jameshow (22 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> Without knowing it, I saw one of Rietveld's chairs in the local museum collection here. I wondered what was notable about it and still do, but maybe it required being alive in the 30s and knowing some social undertones or harmonics.
> 
> I'm not a huge protector of intellectual capital for things that are simple and a reading of wiki finds that the chair was knocked off commonly after that. It's hard to get that upset about such things.
> 
> ...


...but then, haven't the English always been trying to catch up to Continental Europe as far as technology and arts go, anyway?"

Ouch!!!


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> ...but then, haven't the English always been trying to catch up to Continental Europe as far as technology and arts go, anyway?"
> 
> Ouch!!!



Well, it's kind of like trying to outdo a dozen competitors at one time. 

We can turn to the US and see just how fast art and craft died here, so it's not like we're pulling the wagon. 

To see how garish things were here, compare the English and European cruise ships to the SS United States interior. it looks like a 1950s dentists office.


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## Sgian Dubh (22 Dec 2022)

I recall the furniture designer maker Rupert Williamson visiting the furniture course I was on. In his presentation on his work he said he approached the design of a new piece by "designing from the handles back." He expanded on that to say that obviously not every piece of furniture has handles at the front, the elevation that's most commonly seen first by a viewer, and that every piece of furniture has either a primary viewpoint, or two or more primary viewpoints. He went on to discuss the difference between, for example, a chest of drawers and a chair, with the latter (potentially) having several primary viewpoints. He also went on to say that it was almost always a mistake to design a piece and at the end of the design process start to think about how the doors or drawers were to be opened; the means for opening and closing doors and drawers needed to be considered from the beginning of the design exercise.

'Design from the handles back' is a useful guide that's never left me, although I don't think I've ever followed it slavishly. Slainte.


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## Yojevol (22 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> Sort of a random question here, but is Newman an English surname?


Definitely, but it's mutating to Newperson


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## raffo (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Work in progress.
> The design is from this book. It gives a lot of detail and history, with "correct" measurements and variations.
> Believe it or not they are quite comfortable. I guess you need to be not far off Reitveld size!
> I've nailed the back and seat with copper roofing nails instead of the books recommended screws, which don't look nice. Apparently Reitveld nailed them originally.
> ...



The chairs look great Jacob.

In one of my posts above I mentioned my neighbor, who is an admirer of modern furniture. He has a set of original Charles and Ray Eames DCW chairs. He had just purchased a Gerrit Rietveld Red Blue Chair, I think it is a kit, not an original. He showed it to me, your post triggered my memory about it.

He also has one of these chairs, Eero Saarinen the Womb Chair. Made by Knoll in 1949, originally purchased by his mother. He told me a story about it, the manufacturer did not offer it in red at the time, my neighbor's mom insisted on the color and they made a custom one in red just for her. Later on they incorporated the color in their catalog.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Sorry but has anyone a pair of sunglasses I can borrow!


You ain't seen nothing - never heard of Memphis?


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## Jameshow (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> You ain't seen nothing - never heard of Memphis?


I need to lie down!!


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> ...but then, haven't the English always been trying to catch up to Continental Europe as far as technology and arts go, anyway?"
> 
> Ouch!!!


Not really. 
Bauhaus highly respected arts n crafts and William Morris. Proust was great admirer and translator of Ruskin. Marx did all his important work in London. etc


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2022)

Yojevol said:


> Definitely, but it's mutating to Newperson


Newman archetypically american. Especially Alfred E Neumann
He does Youtube demos with table saws.


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Newman archetypically american. Especially Alfred E Neumann
> He does Youtube demos with table saws.
> 
> View attachment 149620



I had to google this as there's very little that actually originated in the US. 

It's English origin. Dorset. 

Not to be refused with the Seinfeld character.


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## raffo (22 Dec 2022)

If anyone is interested, this guy has several lectures leading up to 20th century industrial design. Wedgewood, Christopher Dresser, Bauhaus, Charles and Ray Eames, etc. etc.

There's a playlist on industrial design lectures:


(Lots of reference to English history too, not just 'merican stuff.)


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## John Brown (22 Dec 2022)

Jameshow said:


> ...but then, haven't the English always been trying to catch up to Continental Europe as far as technology and arts go, anyway?"
> 
> Ouch!!!


Ouch indeed! Arts, maybe. England, I believe, has a fairly good pedigree(stupid continental word) as far as technology goes.


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## doctor Bob (22 Dec 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> He went on to discuss the difference between, for example, a chest of drawers and a chair...............


Phew, at least you won't get them muddled up anymore Richard.


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## D_W (22 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> Ouch indeed! Arts, maybe. England, I believe, has a fairly good pedigree(stupid continental word) as far as technology goes.


No worries on pedigree. It's a dog food here. I believe in the US, most would refer to Germany, schweiz and Austria as far as technology. I understand England had some trouble matching the Dutch earlier and solved it by poaching.


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## raffo (22 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> I understand England had some trouble matching the Dutch earlier and solved it by poaching.


The US did too, they got to keep Oppenheimer, von Braun, and others. Lol.


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## D_W (23 Dec 2022)

raffo said:


> The US did too, they got to keep Oppenheimer, von Braun, and others. Lol.


Oh, we've poached from the start. I was going to make a joke that we've never developed anything here, just made it faster and cheaper, but that's not true.


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## raffo (23 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> Oh, we've poached from the start. I was going to make a joke that we've never developed anything here, just made it faster and cheaper, but that's not true.


but, but, we got Al Gore, he invented the Internet...

The world is too interconnected nowadays, no one country can claim "only our natives are innovating"


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (23 Dec 2022)

Jacob, your chairs look great. I have always loved the vibrancy of the colour choice. I do not recall, however, seeing nails or screws on original versions.

In 2020 I visited the Bauhaus Museum in Munich. What a treat!!!

The first piece to catch my eye was this wood former of a Porsche 356 (I spent 12 years restoring one), a car which has some of the best lines and curves ever ...







Throst carpet ...






Marcel Breuer ...






Charles Rennie Mackintosh - in 1917! ....












Gerrit Thomas Rietveld Zig-Zag 1932 ...











Rietveld (1924) ... (my wife wondering what the fuss is all about) ...






Rietveld sideboard 1919 ...






I must admit that Rietveld's designs are not attractive to me, but I appreciate that he was designing these in an era that had such different views.

On the other hand, I LOVE Hans Wegner (and a reason I - hand built - his Round Chair, photo earlier on).

Egg Chair and Shell Chair ...






Hans and Wassili Luckhardt (ca 1930) ...






Eames. I have one of these ...






Then there is Dieter Rams ... sigh. His designs for radios and related furniture is unsurpassed, in my opinion ...





















Thanks for watching 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## thetyreman (23 Dec 2022)

I like a lot of earlier arts and crafts movement design turn of the century up to about the 1930s, and also alan peters like this for example, also really into gaudi and the art nouveau movement.


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## thetyreman (23 Dec 2022)

love this style of door, really like curves with no right angles, must be a pain in the buttocks to make but it looks good.


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## TRITON (23 Dec 2022)

One of the problems we have with chairs is not design, that was perfected years, if not centuries ago, but more with fashion and use of weird shapes. A simple single chair should only have a single function - To be comfortable to sit in for an extended period of time.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (23 Dec 2022)

Triton, what about looking good as well? I am sure that we both (all) enjoy surrounding ourselves with attractive items. Otherwise we'd live in deck chairs.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Sgian Dubh (23 Dec 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Phew, at least you won't get them muddled up anymore Richard.


Yes, after Rupert's presentation I learnt that I should probably stop sitting on top of the chest of drawers and storing all my clothes on the handy spots available on the bedroom chair, i.e., the back, arms, and the seat. Slainte.


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## rogxwhit (23 Dec 2022)

TRITON said:


> One of the problems we have with chairs is not design, that was perfected years, if not centuries ago, but more with fashion and use of weird shapes. A simple single chair should only have a single function - To be comfortable to sit in for an extended period of time.


Ah - but not all chairs are for sitting in ... ;-)


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## TRITON (23 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Triton, what about looking good as well?


Maybe the case there of form over function. Look at the Rietveld chair(1924) comfortable ?. No, its not its only comfy if you had a cushion. Same goes with the Eames chaise lounge. Interesting to look at in formed plastic. But comfy it is not, its like sitting on one of these horrid stacking chairs you got at school(Robin Day for Hille)-Functionality there is supreme, in that it can be mass produced in a moulded shell, with welded base and the ability to stack, thus taking up little room. Function there great - Comfort, it makes your bum itch after sitting in it for 2 hours.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (23 Dec 2022)

Triton, the Eames office chair is one of the most comfortable I have used, and I sit in it every day, all day.






Note that I was not saying that form is more important than function. I was stating that both are relevant, and would not be happy with just one.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## clogs (24 Dec 2022)

Derek
the only problem with deck chairs is getting out of them....
I have a really comfy plush leather arm chair, swivel. tilts etc.....
BUT had to put 4inch riser blocks to get out of it....

as for te reitveld stuff....
looks to me its what u'd get if u asked a bunch of 10 year olds to make something out of a broken Ikea wardrobe....

I rather like ur office chair tho...the one in my workshop came out of a skip.... 
happy holidays....


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## Blackswanwood (24 Dec 2022)

The late David Savage made some interesting chairs. I did a short course at his workshop/school when this one was a prototype. It was surprisingly comfortable.






I also very much like these which he also designed and made …


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## John Brown (24 Dec 2022)

Blackswanwood said:


> The late David Savage made some interesting chairs. I did a short course at his workshop/school when this one was a prototype. It was surprisingly comfortable.
> 
> View attachment 149669
> 
> ...


The second pair look like they're alive. In fact they look like insolent sprawling teenaged boys watching football on TV.

I think it's a Samsung or Sony, but could be an LG.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Jacob, your chairs look great. I have always loved the vibrancy of the colour choice. I do not recall, however, seeing nails or screws on original versions.


Nails according to various sources.
Screws according the book I'm using.
Not good either way as the panels sit on the arris of the rails.
I'd be inclined to slip in a fillet to fill the gap but it'd spoil the idea somehow.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2022)

TRITON said:


> Maybe the case there of form over function. Look at the Rietveld chair(1924) comfortable ?. No, its not its only comfy if you had a cushion. .....


Oddly enough it's quite comfortable, as everybody says who sits in one. The geometry is carefully worked out.
To an extent Reitveld designs were about making furniture with found materials, "packing case" furniture or standard section bought timber and boards. But instead they become an exercise in style. More architectural perhaps.


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## Blackswanwood (24 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> The second pair look like they're alive. In fact they look like insolent sprawling teenaged boys watching football on TV.
> 
> I think it's a Samsung or Sony, but could be an LG.


It’s interesting what these designs conjure up in the mind. They’re called the love chairs. 

I am pretty sure Chris Tribe made something similar (the leaning/pointing look) which was called the Saturday Night Fever chair.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> The second pair look like they're alive. In fact they look like insolent sprawling teenaged boys watching football on TV.
> 
> ......


My first thought was overdressed women staggering about full of booze!
The double seat as two chubby ladies sitting in the sun, covered in suntan lotion. A hint of Beryl Cook. I'd want to compete the ensemble with a couple of empty wine bottles and perhaps add nail varnish/lipstick hi-lites to the chairs.
Can't say I like them at all (the chairs that is) - just too fussy and attention demanding.
Not too bothered about Sam Maloof either and his spiky looking things from outer space.


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## PaulB (24 Dec 2022)

TRITON said:


> Maybe the case there of form over function. Look at the Rietveld chair(1924) comfortable ?. No, its not its only comfy if you had a cushion. Same goes with the Eames chaise lounge. Interesting to look at in formed plastic. But comfy it is not, its like sitting on one of these horrid stacking chairs you got at school(Robin Day for Hille)-Functionality there is supreme, in that it can be mass produced in a moulded shell, with welded base and the ability to stack, thus taking up little room. Function there great - Comfort, it makes your bum itch after sitting in it for 2 hours.


You really should get some cream for that or maybe change your detergent?


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## imageel (24 Dec 2022)

Blackswanwood said:


> The late David Savage made some interesting chairs. I did a short course at his workshop/school when this one was a prototype. It was surprisingly comfortable.
> 
> View attachment 149669
> 
> ...


Those two certainly tick my boxes in terms of being incredibly pleasing on the eyes, the latter two almost decadent and incredibly sexy too.
I am jealous that you had the opportunity to learn from him, I would be very interested to see more of his designs and perhaps construction plans - did he publish any books or design materials?


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## Sgian Dubh (24 Dec 2022)

imageel said:


> did he publish any books or design materials?


Yes, The Intelligent Hand. Slainte.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Yes, The Intelligent Hand. Slainte.


_"....But a lot of the hard labour involves some unexpected skills. Listening. Seeing. Drawing. And looking into the mirror and practicing the expression: "And that will cost 20,000 pounds."..."_  Well worth bearing in mind - it's really easy to underprice.
_"...one of the leading furniture designers in the UK..."_?? er, more like one of the leading makers of extravagant giftware for the filthy rich, in my humble opinion!


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## Sgian Dubh (24 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> er, more like one of the leading makers of extravagant giftware for the filthy rich, in my humble opinion!


I think I might have phrased that more along the lines of: _"one of the leading makers of extravagant giftware for the filthy rich"_ followed up with, _and good for him to be able to find a niche in that rarefied market._

Your claim to humility expressing your opinion didn't fool me in the slightest, by the way. It just made me chuckle to see you, apparently, so innocently ironic, whether you meant it, or not. Slainte.


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## Blackswanwood (24 Dec 2022)

imageel said:


> Those two certainly tick my boxes in terms of being incredibly pleasing on the eyes, the latter two almost decadent and incredibly sexy too.
> I am jealous that you had the opportunity to learn from him, I would be very interested to see more of his designs and perhaps construction plans - did he publish any books or design materials?


He was a very interesting man. Sadly he passed away as his book was published.

Bit more background here









Meet the Author: David Savage


“The story of my life is a whole series of failures in lots of ways,” says David Savage, an artist, designer, maker and founder of Rowden Atelier, a furniture design school and workshop in North De…




blog.lostartpress.com


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## doctor Bob (24 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> View attachment 149594


Bravo Jacob, love them. 
I'm more Le Corbusier, love my LC4, managed to get an early real stamped one in an auction, I also have a good copy.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> Bravo Jacob, love them.
> I'm more Le Corbusier, love my LC4, managed to get an early real stamped one in an auction, I also have a good copy.


Nice one.
Then there's Mies https://www.moma.org/collection/works/4369
All good stuff, and iconic.
I'm limited to fakes I can make myself!
The Red & Blue chair really is strangely comfortable and I've heard it being referred to by happy owners as a "contemplation" chair.
Next project is a decrepit Thonet rocking chair which is beyond restoration, so I'm going to do a makeover with Bauhaus paint scheme like the Reitveld


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2022)

Just an idle thought on the design theme: The iconic furniture "designers" as aforementioned seem to be a different mob from the iconic furniture "woodworkers" such as Krenov and Savage. These two in a different class from Reitveld, Corbusier, Mies Van de Rohe, Juhl, Malmsten, Wegner et al.


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## John Brown (24 Dec 2022)

thetyreman said:


> love this style of door, really like curves with no right angles, must be a pain in the buttocks to make but it looks good.


Something of Munch's "The scream" about it.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> Something of Munch's "The scream" about it.


Yes! The eyes, the open mouth, the boils, the bony bits showing through. Nightmare!


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## rogxwhit (24 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Just an idle thought on the design theme: The iconic furniture "designers" as aforementioned seem to be a different mob from the iconic furniture "woodworkers" such as Krenov and Savage. These two in a different class from Reitveld, Corbusier, Mies Van de Rohe, Juhl, Malmsten, Wegner et al.


Indeed you can be a designer without being a maker - designing for industrial production or just designing pieces to be made by others who are craftspeople. And obviously. as many have done, you might also integrate both design and making.

It will be invaluable though as a designer to have a good knowledge of the materials involved, their properties and jointing methods. 

Distillation of structure and form could be thought of as equally valuable to making technique. An integrity of purpose could be self-evident. Showing off in my book is deprecated. Something the Shakers cultivated admirably is an honesty of vision in craft, though the term Shaker these days has been stolen and commercialised. 

It's wholly possible to be a fine craftsman in terms of working materials without having much sense of visual design (examples all around!). Design is a personal and cultural expression.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> .....
> 
> It's wholly possible to be a fine craftsman in terms of working materials without having much sense of visual design (examples all around!).


But not always a good idea (examples all around!).
The great lasting success of the Bauhaus was largely due to the attempt to integrate makers, designers, engineers, architects, craftworkers, performers, etc. as all interdependent and of equal importance.








Bauhaus - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Molynoox (25 Dec 2022)

clogs said:


> Derek
> the only problem with deck chairs is getting out of them....
> I have a really comfy plush leather arm chair, swivel. tilts etc.....
> BUT had to put 4inch riser blocks to get out of it....
> ...


Maybe not the only problem, what about the finger guillotine situation?  I'm always paranoid about using them


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## Molynoox (25 Dec 2022)

Interesting thread.
Interesting to hear the talk of form vs function and design Vs manufacture.
my background in automotive engineering has given me some interesting parallels to think about.

design and manufacture was obviously completely split between two completely different teams, and we had a phase, or number of checkpoints, in every project called manufacturing feasibility. At this point engineering and manufacturing teams come together and check it could be built and if not how we should change the design so that it can.
what is also interesting is that there were sort of two phases of design, and these sort of separated the form and function part:
first you have the artistic concept design guys who wear silk scarves, and corduroy trousers, who sketch out cool looking stuff on a piece of paper.
then you have the engineering teams who take care of the function part and temper the beautiful art work concepts into something practical, then later they meet with manufacturing who tell them it can't be assembled efficiently and the design is changed so that it can. By the end the sketch looks nothing like the design but you have something that will take you to the shops, and because the corduroy trousers guys got involved at the start it doesn't end up looking like a cardboard box on wheels designed by an engineer.

you really need the artistic guys because the engineers can't see past problem solving, and we can't turn it off, it's an in built function of our brains, and that compromises the artistic element because a lot of ideas get rejected inside the mind without even reaching the paper. There are people that can do both of course, but they are not the norm.

and now that I've started looking at doing woodworking I am needing to train myself to think differently:

1. Be more creative / artistic
2. Dive in and do it, instead of analysing it and planning it and worrying about all the problems that need solving - just get started
3. Don't dwell on the little details and let it slow you down
4. Focus on the 'what' and not the 'how'... Dovetail joints are fascinating but they are a means to an end - the big picture needs to be figured out first and not lost sight of, and the details later

And many other characteristics that need changing about myself 

I'm not sure how relevant all that was... 

 martin


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## Inspector (25 Dec 2022)

Molynoox my father was a Dane that apprenticed to a wagon maker in 1935 before going into furniture factories. He said at that time architects and furniture designers had to do a year on construction sites or making furniture as part of their university schooling. It was to teach them to design things that could be built. I presume the practice is long gone but think it has merit.

I suppose because it was a small part of the Craftsman furniture/home design era nobody has mentioned Green and Green. They didn't do the making but did the designs of everything from the grounds and gardens, the house and the interiors including stained glass and fabric designs and the furniture. Their work was for the wealthy, one of the reasons it wasn't prolific. I like a lot of the style and making a few pieces is on my someday list. 

As a teenager my father took me to work, mostly to keep my mother from killing me, in the summers to strip the furniture his company repaired and refinished for the auction houses. Most of the furniture came from the UK by the container load. Nasty job that stripping but handling the furniture gave me a reasonably good eye for proportion and construction. I didn't realize it at the time but absorbed the information as I worked. It might be one of the reasons I don't use plans or just a rough sketch at most when I make stuff. 

Pete


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## Molynoox (25 Dec 2022)

Inspector said:


> Molynoox my father was a Dane that apprenticed to a wagon maker in 1935 before going into furniture factories. He said at that time architects and furniture designers had to do a year on construction sites or making furniture as part of their university schooling. It was to teach them to design things that could be built. I presume the practice is long gone but think it has merit.
> 
> I suppose because it was a small part of the Craftsman furniture/home design era nobody has mentioned Green and Green. They didn't do the making but did the designs of everything from the grounds and gardens, the house and the interiors including stained glass and fabric designs and the furniture. Their work was for the wealthy, one of the reasons it wasn't prolific. I like a lot of the style and making a few pieces is on my someday list.
> 
> ...


It's almost as if we are a product of our environment, and not simply born into our respective capabilities. Somebody should write that down.


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## Inspector (25 Dec 2022)

I think some of it comes naturally and the rest was beaten into us. 

Pete


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