# So this Dovetailing business?...



## Kaizen123

I'm in the shed today finally learning to dovetail or at least trying to teach myself the extreme basics of it.

I've done the tail piece I think... Took 2 attempts because the first piece I blew out the back face of the wood with the chisel. There must be a technique to avoid this right? This is legitimately my first time really picking up the chisels for anything other than planing a bit of here and there. Any advice on this? I ask because I almost did the same on the second piece but got away with just a chip.

Going to do the pin piece now. The pin piece definitely seems a lot less intimidating as I'm just doing one dovetail in the middle of a 100mm width piece of wood. No idea what the wood is but I'm starting to think it's mdf. It was an old babies cot I've taken apart.

Is there any wisdom people could give on how to tell if the cut is actually straight? I've not got the eyes for that. Do you not really know until you try to fit it in?

Thanks.

I've gone to far into the cut on the back right hand side... Any point in continuing or do I start again?


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## Jameshow

I always do the tails first and then mark them onto the pin board. 

Cut down the waste side of the line and coping saw the bottom before trimming with s sharp chisel. 

Other with more experience will be along shortly. 

Cheers James


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## Kaizen123

Thanks @Jameshow I've totally butchered it but I'm going to keep trying! I have realised my mistakes in it and if I write them down I might just not forget them.

It is in anyway and it holding together but there is a lot to be said about the cleanliness of it to say the least!

Also I watched a video on it and the chap said to always chisel a bit of extra meat out of the middle that isn't seen is that common practice?


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## Phill05

It looks like you have the pin the wrong way round in the 3rd image, practice and practice it will come better


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## Jacob

Waste of time DTing mdf - you need some real wood.
Workpieces on the bench (on a clean bit of mdf if you have any) and chiselling downwards, vertical. Half way through on one side, then turn over and half way through again.


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## Kaizen123

Right good to know. I've got some pine left will that be sufficient? Or I've got a bit of Meranti?


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## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> Right good to know. I've got some pine left will that be sufficient? Or I've got a bit of Meranti?


Pine and meranti both difficult because crumbly and need very sharp chisels - but good to practice on!


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## Jacob

And don't bother fiddling about with a coping saw. If you get the chiselling right the waste will drop or push out. Or you could cut the sides of the pinhole down to the line and then one or two more cuts short of the line, through the waste, then easier to knock out after chiselling.
The saw cuts need to be fractionally over the line by as little as possible, so you don't have to clean out the corners.


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## Kaizen123

I did find the coping saw quite a challenge. I was cutting triangles out as it doesn't seem to want to bend too much for me. Feel much more in control with the chisels just need to pay more attention to the lines I think and get the knack of chiselling straight.


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## danst96

Don't be discouraged by your first attempt. Just keep practicing. I tried my first dovetail over Christmas and it came out like this 




Not my finest work. 

This is attempt number 3. Still not amazing but clear progress, not just in how it looks but how comfortable I was doing it, the speed and enjoyment. To some this is probably rubbish but I'm quite pleased with my 3rd ever dovetails


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## grumpycorn

Some rapid progression there @danst96 

I think this demo shows what @Jacob is describing:



Fair warning, he makes it look ridiculously easy. It'll be interesting to see if Frank Klausz generates the same level of discussion as Paul Seller's...


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## TRITON

Practice in pine 
Easier to come by, easier to work. But at the same time is softer so when cleaning up if you try to lever out chippings it will crush the edges and look pants. You can easily see where you're going wrong because of that, and with pine its easier to do,doesnt take as long
Then move to hardwood.
But as above Practice,Practice,Practice.

Using one of the very fine Japanese saws you can actually do the tails and not bother with any cleaning up if you can cut them squarely. Then just transfer them through to the pin piece and go from there. I believe this is probably the easiest way. As trying to catch a tiny sliver to get to the line can be problematic at best, plus the grain can run so you slice deeper in that you intend.

Depending on how accurate i really need to be, after marking out I use a scalpel to go over the lines to give the clean sharp edge. You can also use a piece clamped on over each line to give the chisel a 90deg edge to slide down and keep the chisel straight and not angled in so the bottom of the tail is parallel to the top. This simple jig can go a long way to preventing any gaps.

What happens when its not 100% 90deg is you need to make the pins bigger and while the tail slips in easier, the outside facing is all gaps. so when transferring tail too pin, the tails need to be dead square.

1/2 laps are the easiest to practice on.
Thus -


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## Kaizen123

Thanks @danst96 that's really motivational to see your progress. Is that walnut?


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## TRITON

Right. Next up.....The Sunrise dovetail


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## Blackswanwood

Using blue tape to accurately mark out pins massively improved my dovetails. There is also a really simple guide you can make to align the pieces when marking up that Pekovich advocates - it's shown in this video.


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## recipio

One tip I've used is to cut to the ' inside' of the pencil line. If you try to split the line the set on the saw is actually taking too much off either left or right. Of course when I got a Woodrat I abandoned hand cutting.


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## D_W

Jacob said:


> And don't bother fiddling about with a coping saw. If you get the chiselling right the waste will drop or push out. Or you could cut the sides of the pinhole down to the line and then one or two more cuts short of the line, through the waste, then easier to knock out after chiselling.
> The saw cuts need to be fractionally over the line by as little as possible, so you don't have to clean out the corners.



I use a coping saw - I wouldn't follow jacob's advice if you intend to do dovetailing in hardwoods (like case sides in the future, or boxes. )


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## Jacob

DTs are a bit like sharpening - there are a lot of opinions out there and you have to tread carefully!
A typical trad chest of drawers could have 100 or more DTs done entirely by hand. These must have been done very quickly and efficiently. Question is, how?
Looking at old furniture several things stand out - the saw cuts were nearly always done freehand with minimal setting out, they were all over-cut to varying degrees, the other marks always deeply cut with cutting gauges no pencil lines involved, coping saws were not used, socket sides always undercut, they last 100s of years sometimes even without glue, and so on!


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## D_W

As to getting the hang of dovetails, just actually do them. If you make a case and you might screw it together but you're not in a hurry, dovetail the case. At some point, it becomes point and shoot unless you only do it infrequently and need to have some sort of special method. 

If the sawing seems hard, do some work with hand tools when you don't need to (cutting boards, etc) and dovetail sawing will become sort of reflexive.


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## Kaizen123

I was thinking the same thing @D_W in terms of learning. If I try to get to a level where I feel I've sort of got the knack then I reckon just dovetail everything I do for a while.


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## thetyreman

all my first dovetails were rubbish, loads of gaps so nothing to be worried about, it just takes patience and lots of practise, and keep checking the boards are flat and dead square both ways right up until you cut them, wood can move dramatically even within the space of hours, use a shooting board to get perfectly square ends, it really does help a lot.


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## Adam W.

Let's not let the thread get sidetracked by bickering between lovers.

@Kaizen123 Carry on with the softwood to get to know that your chisel is sharp.


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## Kaizen123

They seem good and sharp to be honest. They are new Narex things and I've been sharpening with diamond stones and then buffing with some compound. I'm quite happy with how sharp they are. Probably because they're not Uber cheap rather than my sharpening skills!


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## Adam W.

If you can shave the hair off your arm with them, they are sharp enough. 

If not you need to have a strop or two.


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## D_W

Kaizen123 said:


> I was thinking the same thing @D_W in terms of learning. If I try to get to a level where I feel I've sort of got the knack then I reckon just dovetail everything I do for a while.



The idea that they're difficult is a short term thing - you just have to work through it. The idea that they're a key part of woodworking rather than routine work is also sort of a modern supposition (aside from the fact that I guess you can get around ever having to make them if they stump you).

Just about all of hand work is a matter of repetition and a combination of incrementally solving issues while you tolerate the fact that you'll have them at first, and when you're good, you'll still have them from time to time as a matter of lapse (unless you want to spend your days with your eyes cross concentrating so hard you could snap a pin off between your lower cheeks -that's not very rewarding). All of this is part of woodworking, even gaining experience to understand what's an issue that will disappear in gluing and fitting, and what's an issue that you can repair, vs what's an issue that you can't neatly repair and then what.

I'm not a master dovtailer - not even much a maker of furniture - I realized about a decade ago that I didn't really want the dovetails to show in the first place, but I do like them as a utility joint on cases and drawers because they're easy to do (and my early ones were disastrous). It just comes together over time and it would've been a shame to get bogged down in some fiddly process where they all had to be prissy (if they are the focus of what you're making and showing, then prissy is on the menu):




There are people on the american forum who were talking about practicing sawing 15 years ago when I started woodworking, and they're still talking about practicing sawing now to make dovetails. I have no clue what they're doing. I think they're doing a lot of thinking, planning and buying and trying the next new trick (buying dovetail chisels, making tools to imitate tage frid's scraper trick, taping off dovetails, coming up with fiddly routines to try to lay things out perfect on draws that could have basic proportions set first and then the first part of the joint cut and the other half of it then marked to fit).

That's kind of all of woodworking - just do it, have standards, improve incrementally and be reasonable with yourself in terms of where they'll actually count (every single pin and tail in the pictures above is completely hidden now, but the moulding miters are pretty important). If you look not even that closely, you can see that the dovetails are not all identically sized. I probably halved the case side edge ,then halved it again and cut dovetails in each quarter dividing the quarters by eye and then sawing the tails without anything more than one or two 90 degree references.

What saw or what chisel or whatever else wouldn't make a difference at this point - they'd end up the same, and they could be marked out more neatly and evenly if that was important - but when it's not and they're hidden, why bother. You'll be heavily challenged to ever get someone to look at the back sides of the drawers on something you make.


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## Droogs

Adam W. said:


> If you can shave the hair off your arm with them, they are sharp enough.
> 
> If not you need to have a strop or two.


Now @Adam W. you know as well as I do that real sharpness doesn't just shave off the hair it takes the layer if skin holding the follicle with it as well before you feel pain. At least that's how it works with my coping saw


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## Ttrees

Those stanley ball vices are a recipe for damaging hacksaw blades.
They are not suitable for anything woodworking related, and should you have a nice saw
the risk of damage is great.
A clamp will do the job much better for any task, and you can clamp the timber much closer to the work to stop vibrations.

Good luck


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## danst96

grumpycorn said:


> Some rapid progression there @danst96


Thanks!




Kaizen123 said:


> Thanks @danst96 that's really motivational to see your progress. Is that walnut?



I was pretty disheartened after the first one as I tend to be overconfident in my abilities and I had such pretty pictures in my mind lol.

Yes its walnut, probably should use something less expensive but it's what I had laying around and they will be drawers for a tool cabinet in the shop. They shall serve as a reminder as to my progression as a woodworker and I don't mind that.

Keep at it you will nail it. Personally I use a fret saw to clear the waste and find it quicker and easier to do rather than chiselling out but everyone has their own preferences and whatever that is that's the perfect way for them! I do think though having a small square and a marking knife makes a big difference


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## Fitzroy

Kaizen123 said:


> Took 2 attempts because the first piece I blew out the back face of the wood with the chisel.



From the photo it looks like you were chiselling with it in the vice. I always chisel with the piece on the bench which supports the back of the wood.


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## Kaizen123

Fitzroy said:


> From the photo it looks like you were chiselling with it in the vice. I always chisel with the piece on the bench which supports the back of the wood.


Yes that is correct. My clamps were occupied. I've seen people clamp a block of wood square up to the line you're chiselling to help keep it flush. This seems like a good way to go right?


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## paulrbarnard

Kaizen123 said:


> Yes that is correct. My clamps were occupied. I've seen people clamp a block of wood square up to the line you're chiselling to help keep it flush. This seems like a good way to go right?


You might find it better to put the wood flat on the bench (sacrificial piece under it) then chisel straight down towards the bench. You don't need to clamp it at all. It will stop the chisel blowing out the back of the material, it's much easier to judge the chisel being vertical than horizontal and you are working against a solid surface so you don't get any material bounch.


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## Fitzroy

paulrbarnard said:


> You might find it better to put the wood flat on the bench (sacrificial piece under it) then chisel straight down towards the bench. You don't need to clamp it at all. It will stop the chisel blowing out the back of the material, it's much easier to judge the chisel being vertical than horizontal and you are working against a solid surface so you don't get any material bounch.


Paul said what I was trying to say way better! And if you care about your bench a scrap piece under is a great suggestion, must remember that when I finally build a decent workbench rather than my current ones with OSB tops!


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## Peri

danst96 said:


> I was pretty disheartened after the first one as I tend to be overconfident in my abilities and I had such pretty pictures in my mind lol.



Entirely relatable - you should see me with a guitar


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## Droogs

In my head







What my missus sees, life can be sooo cruel









not actually me btw


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## Jacob

paulrbarnard said:


> You might find it better to put the wood flat on the bench (sacrificial piece under it) then chisel straight down towards the bench. You don't need to clamp it at all. It will stop the chisel blowing out the back of the material, it's much easier to judge the chisel being vertical than horizontal and you are working against a solid surface so you don't get any material bounch.


Spot on!
An MDF pad is good stuff for the temporary chopping surface. Then chippings get brushed off the edge and not under the workpiece etc. The best guide for the chisel is a deep gauge line. You work back towards it and finish with the chisel in the line. Or cut a V towards it and keep enlarging the V.
Chopping vertically is like morticing and you can really whack it out, which is why you don't need a coping saw - too slow and you still need the chisel to finish off anyway.


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## Kaizen123

Fitzroy said:


> Paul said what I was trying to say way better! And if you care about your bench a scrap piece under is a great suggestion, must remember that when I finally build a decent workbench rather than my current ones with OSB tops!


Yes mine is not a fancy one I knocked it together with wooden bearers (was a forklift driver) and a bit of plywood.


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## D_W

Kaizen123 said:


> I was thinking the same thing @D_W in terms of learning. If I try to get to a level where I feel I've sort of got the knack then I reckon just dovetail everything I do for a while.



so, I have a suggestion, because I'm ultimately just a beginner who likes to figure things out. 

When I started, I wanted to build things, but I didn't necessarily know what I wanted them to look like. As in, I had no design sense. I think that was more limiting than the technical skill, and I think I could be a good maker if I had to do it professionally. I think a lot of us could. I don't know if I could be very good at the "can't get if you don't ask" side where you really need to ask more than you think you do to keep a business afloat because when you look around, the only folks who are still going are those folks (aside from a few getting close to retirement). 

It's easy to ignore getting an idea of what you want to see when you first get on this stuff because what you want may be no gaps in dovetails, but that happens (and if it doesn't, then maybe you just don't use dovetails or get them done another way - the result is more important than the method and the design is probably more important than the result). 

that said, curating what you want to end up with is very important. 

And when you start with the dovetails, everything seems hard, but if you do them for a while, you probably won't remember where or when they weren't difficult all of the sudden, but it'll happen. The lesson is remembering how hard they seemed and then suddenly at some point they didn't. And then just about everything in woodworking is like that - the first try may not be good, but there's little that you can't get good at just by being willing to put in repetition and a little bit of experiment. Fertilizing the part along the way where what you make looks good both at a distance and from 2" away (building the design sense, etc) is the fuel that will get you from A to B in each case, and tolerating that nothing is easy at first.


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## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> Yes mine is not a fancy one I knocked it together with wooden bearers (was a forklift driver) and a bit of plywood.


Needs mass for downward chopping and chiselling. Along the lines of a piece of mdf on a concrete slab, which'd probably be good even on a rickety Workmate!


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## Kaizen123

Jacob said:


> Needs mass for downward chopping and chiselling. Along the lines of a piece of mdf on a concrete slab, which'd probably be good even on a rickety Workmate!




It is actually pretty sturdy to be honest. The bearers I used for the legs are 4x4 posts and I've put in 6 of them for an 8x4 surface. Not the prettiest or probably the safest but for a man in a shed trying to escape his children and Mrs.... It hold up just fine


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## Kaizen123

Attempt #2 is already feeling alot easier and less baffling. Still a long way to go but I think I can see what you all mean now when you say it will become just common practice if you keep doing it. It feels a bit like a riddle and once you figure it out you know the answer but nobody else does.

The pine was definitely a lot harder to get the middle part of the cut flush with the chisel though it just seemed to take massive splinters out of the middle, but the rest of it was definitely easier with pine. Felt alot more forgiving.

Anyway I'm feeling good about this. Thanks a lot for all of the advice.


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## TRITON

One thing i would say to be aware of is using a marking or cutting gauge to scribe right across the timber. While this help you register both sides, the area not being cut out the outer surface has been damaged and can cause breakout.
I mark in pencil, then make and scribing or cutting on those lines and not across the full width.


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## paulrbarnard

Kaizen123 said:


> Attempt #2 is already feeling alot easier and less baffling. Still a long way to go but I think I can see what you all mean now when you say it will become just common practice if you keep doing it. It feels a bit like a riddle and once you figure it out you know the answer but nobody else does.
> 
> The pine was definitely a lot harder to get the middle part of the cut flush with the chisel though it just seemed to take massive splinters out of the middle, but the rest of it was definitely easier with pine. Felt alot more forgiving.
> 
> Anyway I'm feeling good about this. Thanks a lot for all of the advice.



Looks a lot tighter. I have a bit of a confusing time when I look at your dovetails as something was looking “off”. I just figured it out, it’s more normal to have the tails wider than the pins or at least have them the same size. Your tails are much narrower than the pins.


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## Kaizen123

@paulrbarnard thank you for the advice. You know what I did actually muck it up a bit because the tail didn't fit initially and I thought 'hang on, what have I done now?' because I had thought of it as a pretty clean cut along the lines (except the bottom) but the boards just didn't go together. I decided to take a chunk more out of the pin thinking it was too narrow and STUPIDLY then realise I just had the board the wrong side up trying to fit it. So I had to then edit the whole thing. It's been a long day.

@TRITON I am marking with a pencil and a marking knife just because that's all I've got really. I have never even touched a cutting gauge. I see everyone using them but for me I'm happy with my pencil just for now


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## Adam W.

Long day at university today @Kaizen123 ?


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## Peter Sefton

Just finished this weeks beginners course which included through and lapped dovetails, some really good quality work including this one by someone who has never dovetailed before.









Beginners’ Course - Peter Sefton Furniture School


Peter Sefton Furniture School Woodworking and Furniture Making Courses - Beginners’ Course - Learn the essential skills needed to use furniture making tools




www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.com


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## Kaizen123

Crikey! Must have had a good teacher! YouTube, coffee and this forum is my teacher at the moment  those look pretty much perfect though no? Their first time! Awesome.


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## Jacob

TRITON said:


> One thing i would say to be aware of is using a marking or cutting gauge to scribe right across the timber. While this help you register both sides, the area not being cut out the outer surface has been damaged and can cause breakout.
> I mark in pencil, then make and scribing or cutting on those lines and not across the full width.


All the old stuff I've seen is strongly gauge/knife marked right across and highly visible. I think the exceptions are done the same but then have marks planed off. If you are having to do hundreds as fast as possible thats how it goes. DTs aren't for looking at anyway.


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## Ttrees

Says you!


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## Peter Sefton

Thanks @Kaizen123 made this video last year for Men's Sheds UK, a bit long but shows partly what we have done this week.



Cheers

Peter


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## Jacob

Ttrees said:


> Says you!


Well they get look at the nowadays but didn't in the past. Drawer fronts with lapped DTs to hide them, or carcase DTs covered with a moulding strip and out of sight, and so on. Normal.


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## Jameshow

Jacob said:


> All the old stuff I've seen is strongly gauge/knife marked right across and highly visible. I think the exceptions are done the same but then have marks planed off. If you are having to do hundreds as fast as possible thats how it goes. DTs aren't for looking at anyway.


I like a good dovetail - shows workmanship!
Not IKEA fixings!!


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## Adam W.

Jacob said:


> Well they get look at the nowadays but didn't in the past. Drawer fronts with lapped DTs to hide them, or carcase DTs covered with a moulding strip and out of sight, and so on. Normal.


True, but fashions change.


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## Ttrees

Aye some excellent craftsmanship is often hidden.
Times are changing though, well so says by the local ads and antique places if that's anything to go by.
Cheaper than weetabix from the Swedes.
Beautiful pieces, but not all too practical in modern households.
Seemingly it's a time for revolution in terms of design, rather than going by the classical
examples which doesn't seem to fit in anyone's home anymore.

We could well be in the dovetail revolution of furniture ages.

Tom


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## Kaizen123

Honestly this second attempt was almost there. Feeling more confident now and going to try and get in another few practices over the weekend.

@Peter Sefton I'm 20 minutes into your video and I'm gonna save the rest for doing it over the weekend! I don't have a dovetail saw so I'm using a coping saw. I did buy an Presch one but the blade is thicker than I hoped it would be and I find it hard to pull without it jumping all over the place. Apparently the Japanese ones are pretty nifty?


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## Peter Sefton

@Kaizen123 trying to cut a straight line for dovetails is going to be a challenge with a coping saw, I like to use a western style "push" saw but lots of makers love Japanese pull saws. They usually have rattan rapped straight handles but after testing in the worksop we found this pistol grip gave more precision for beginners. 













Tajima Japanese Pull Saw with Pistol Grip - 16 tpi


This Tajima Japanese Pull Saw with Pistol Grip is ideal for producing cuts of any depth across the grain on solid wood, wooden profiles, plywood and chipboard.




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk





Enjoy your weekend cutting dovetails!

Cheers
Peter


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## mikej460

I think if you invest £25 to £30 on a japanese dovetail saw from axminster and follow Peter's video you will improve massively.


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## Kaizen123

That looks like a some mad weapon from an apocalyptic zombie film I love it. To be honest I'm enjoying getting used to my chisels more than anything so not being able to cut straight down the line is ok at the moment as I'm cutting a couple mm outside the mark and chiselling the rest. Long term though, I am gonna have to get myself one of those badboys! Flippin beaut!


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## Bod

The advice I was given for cutting dovetails, was to clamp the pieces in the vice for cutting, with the cuts vertical, doing half the cuts then repositioning for the 2nd cuts. It being easier to cut vertically than at an angle.
Using a saw with very little or no kerf, I've found helps greatly.
I'm in the coping saw camp, to remove the bulk of the waste. I've been known to clamp guide blocks to the back of the work to ensure the saw cuts went to the line not passed them.

Bod.


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## Jacob

Or the Draper - less than £10 and hardpoint. All you need really. Good for beginner because it will be sharp and straight.
If you want to splash out Spear & Jackson £30 new, or similar price old on ebay.


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## Jameshow

Bahco saws are good and at £10 not expensive...


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## Jacob

grumpycorn said:


> Some rapid progression there @danst96
> 
> I think this demo shows what @Jacob is describing:
> 
> 
> 
> Fair warning, he makes it look ridiculously easy. It'll be interesting to see if Frank Klausz generates the same level of discussion as Paul Seller's...



Brilliant vid from Klausz. I'm sort of getting there but not quite as snappy!
He does pins first but I reckon most trad workers did sockets first - because you can do two sides clamped together in one op and speed things up. You can see it on old drawers where the little variations on one side match the other side exactly.
PS he does it sideways but easier turned facing the bench I think. And if you are doing a lot have a high stool - lot of leaning forwards etc gets uncomfortable, back ache etc, sitting down and you can be at it all day, perhaps.
Another thing is to set the gauge line slightly over so the ends stick through by half a mm or so, then plane them flush after the glue is dry, for a perfect appearance.


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## TRITON

Adam W. said:


> True, but fashions change.


Once upon a time it was secret dovetails for drawers. Especially if it had a front fitted.,


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## Droogs

Jacob said:


> Or the Draper - less than £10 and hardpoint. All you need really. Good for beginner because it will be sharp and straight.
> If you want to splash out Spear & Jackson £30 new, or similar price old on ebay.


I'll but heads with you on this one Jacob. I first bought the draper version and threw it in the bin 2 days later. It is pants by far the worst saw I have ever bought. The blade is so thick and heavy the thing feels like your using a sythe and the set so wide (and laser hardened so you cant change it) that your guiding an ox plow. 
The cheapies from Lidl feel like you are using Gyokucho saw in comparison.


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## Jacob

Droogs said:


> I'll but heads with you on this one Jacob. I first bought the draper version and threw it in the bin 2 days later. It is pants by far the worst saw I have ever bought. The blade is so thick and heavy the thing feels like your using a sythe and the set so wide (and laser hardened so you cant change it) that your guiding an ox plow.
> The cheapies from Lidl feel like you are using Gyokucho saw in comparison.


I had the Draper version years ago and it was perfect but blunt. Sent it back and the next one was too. They gave up and sent me 2 hard-point hand saws as compensation, which were top notch.
But I've seen Draper DT saws since and they were good, they'd obviously sorted it. Not thick and heavy at all - blade much the same as an old Spear & Jackson but hard-point. Not like your description at all but who knows what they might sell you tomorrow!


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## Just4Fun

I just searched for Draper dovetail saw. They are 10 TPI with 2mm kerf. I want a dovetail saw and these are cheap but I will pass. I want something finer on both counts. Currently I use a tenon saw but hanker after a dedicated dovetail saw.


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## Jacob

Just4Fun said:


> I just searched for Draper dovetail saw. They are 10 TPI with 2mm kerf. I want a dovetail saw and these are cheap but I will pass. I want something finer on both counts. Currently I use a tenon saw but hanker after a dedicated dovetail saw.


OK forget Draper! The ones I saw were as fine as a normal S&J, they must have abandoned the spec.
n.b. there's no particular virtue in a fine kerf itself, but you do want fine teeth 15 - 20 tpi, and very little set, for a clean edged and straight cut in thin stuff.


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## Devmeister

Good job so far. Tails are a dark secret of pro wood workers. Oh they are so hard you must be a master…….Nope they are not hard. Caution: watch out for tool venders and hucksters selling the latest gizmos….you don’t need them.

I learned years ago from two masters. Jim Kingshot and Christian Becksvort. See YouTube vid called just another dovetailing video.

Your chisels should be good ones and Razer sharp. I love vintage Marples and boxwood handle Sorbbey. Both English. See eBay to find. Some of Japanese ones are also good. A sharp chisel makes a very distinct sound which you learn as music!

Get the basics down. Learn to sharpen chisels. Get some good water stones or the diamond plates. Either ones work. I use the Norton stones. Learn to saw straight and TO the line. Not into it. A saw kerf has width so know where to waste your kerf! Practice sawing to the line. MDF is fine for this. Remember a bevel chisel is a wedge. So understand it will move when you first begin a chop. Light taps help. Once you open up the cut you can get more aggressive and resort to parring.

Part of the joint cut by chisels is end grain. The glue strength of end grain is non existent so if you have to cheat by undercutting this feature, that is OK. We will forgive you.

In the chippendale drawers from the 18th century I have examined, there was no layout perfection. In fact the angles were different on both sides of the same tail feature! In other words, the master just went at by eye with a hand saw!

A dovetail joint is a joint with two parts. A pin board and a tail board. Easy! One must track the other. So it does not matter which one you cut first.

Where things get hairy is the second board. A good tail joint is a light interference fit. A sliding fit leads to gaps. A tight interference fit leads to broken features.

key here is marking out. Forget rulers, digital calipers and all those other fancy tools. You need a good single bevel marking out knife. I also use a chip carving knife for this. A bit of chalk helps to see or find the cut lines. They should be fine, tight and track the features of the first board.

Now have a go at the second board with your dovetail saw. I use a lie Nielsen which is a copy of an English dovetail saw. Use your chisels also.

wasting your kerf and keeping your mark out lines is critical here! Don’t be afraid to cut inboard and finish with a chisel parring operation if needed.

Don’t keep test fitting your work. The wood fibers will compress and throw you off. Do a light test fit. Mark one board with pencil or charcoal along one edge. When you do a partial test fit, the color rubs off and tells you where you need a light parting off.

lightly spread some white glue on your long grain features and send the joint home.

when you first start, mark out your waste features. At first it’s a bit confusing and you might cut out the wrong feature. Been there done that!

The traditional half lap is not harder but doable. Kingshot had a video on this. Excellent! Also keep in mind that on traditional high end work, the tails were known as pin tails. The gap is barely wide enough to get a dovetail saw in there and wiggle it about a bit.

So it’s about control….your control. Your in charge! Your not at the restrictive mercy of CNC machines, router jigs and all the other fancy kit. The more you give in to that kit, the less control you have. Stick with the basics and the old timers. Your first drawer will be fire wood. Your third drawer may show you actually may have it down. Your 10th drawer will get you the label of skilled beginner. Your 100th drawer will be sloppy as your chasing the truck to get the job out! Lol

keep at it and enjoy what your doing. Oh yah, until you get the muscle memory down, stay away from grainy wood like walnut, figured wood etc. even pine can be a pain. Chisels will follow the path of least resistance meaning they track the grain instead of going where their told. Aspen and poplar are good woods. Basswood is good. Real mahogany is awesome if you can find it. African mahogany is not mahogany at all. It’s hard and it’s grain is more difficult to work. White oak is awsome but quatersawn grain is a bit different to dovetail that flat grain. Not harder just different.

Goid Luck and have Fun!!!!!!!!


----------



## Devmeister

Devmeister said:


> also.





Jacob said:


> OK forget Draper! The ones I saw were as fine as a normal S&J, they must have abandoned the spec.
> n.b. there's no particular virtue in a fine kerf itself, but you do want fine teeth 15 - 20 tpi, and very little set, for a clean edged and straight cut in thin stuff.



OMG A 2mm kerf! OMG A tennon saw? Use a metal hacksaw until you can get a dovetail saw.

A dovetail saw has two differences of note. First it has the shape of a tennon saw but it’s cut as a rip saw. Second, the saw set is set very fine for better control and to improve surface finish. A fine set means it cannot clear chips from the kerf as well as other saws but in a dovetail operation that is rarely an issue.

Some dovetail saws have variable tooth pitch. I have never seen this to be an advantage.

In time some ho so far as to sharpen and even make their own DT saws. The Lie Nielsen saw is pricy but it’s based on the independence DT saw which was a copy of an old English saw. Mine is an independence saw which I got prior to LN buying them.

what’s great about eBay UK is that you can find lots of the older English stuff. The English had this stuff down. In the US we have to work harder. LN had been a great help here.


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## Devmeister

D_W said:


> As to getting the hang of dovetails, just actually do them. If you make a case and you might screw it together but you're not in a hurry, dovetail the case. At some point, it becomes point and shoot unless you only do it infrequently and need to have some sort of special method.
> 
> If the sawing seems hard, do some work with hand tools when you don't need to (cutting boards, etc) and dovetail sawing will become sort of reflexive.



Agreed! But keep in mind you cannot dovetail everything. Fake wood should not be dovetailed. Plam, melamine, MDF, chip board etc.;

Also bear in mind if your case is based on rail and stile panels. Here your going to have short grain in the tails. Not good! I like the machine cut lock mitre here.

what makes a dovetail so strong is the long grain in the tail feature.


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## pgrbff

Jacob said:


> And don't bother fiddling about with a coping saw. If you get the chiselling right the waste will drop or push out. Or you could cut the sides of the pinhole down to the line and then one or two more cuts short of the line, through the waste, then easier to knock out after chiselling.
> The saw cuts need to be fractionally over the line by as little as possible, so you don't have to clean out the corners.


I think it might be easier for a beginner to pare off to a line rather than chop all the way through. Especially if it is a difficult timber.


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## Jacob

Klausz again. Full of interesting details and different ways, different saws etc. I think I'm on a bit of a learning curve!
He's very fast, which is of course very traditional. But also means you have enough leeway to do it slower and more perfectly for show.
I'm going to watch Paul Sellers next.


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## Devmeister

Kaizen123 said:


> I'm in the shed today finally learning to dovetail or at least trying to teach myself the extreme basics of it.
> 
> I've done the tail piece I think... Took 2 attempts because the first piece I blew out the back face of the wood with the chisel. There must be a technique to avoid this right? This is legitimately my first time really picking up the chisels for anything other than planing a bit of here and there. Any advice on this? I ask because I almost did the same on the second piece but got away with just a chip.
> 
> Going to do the pin piece now. The pin piece definitely seems a lot less intimidating as I'm just doing one dovetail in the middle of a 100mm width piece of wood. No idea what the wood is but I'm starting to think it's mdf. It was an old babies cot I've taken apart.
> 
> Is there any wisdom people could give on how to tell if the cut is actually straight? I've not got the eyes for that. Do you not really know until you try to fit it in?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I've gone to far into the cut on the back right hand side... Any point in continuing or do I start again?





Jacob said:


> Brilliant vid from Klausz. I'm sort of getting there but not quite as snappy!
> He does pins first but I reckon most trad workers did sockets first - because you can do two sides clamped together in one op and speed things up. You can see it on old drawers where the little variations on one side match the other side exactly.
> PS he does it sideways but easier turned facing the bench I think. And if you are doing a lot have a high stool - lot of leaning forwards etc gets uncomfortable, back ache etc, sitting down and you can be at it all day, perhaps.
> Another thing is to set the gauge line slightly over so the ends stick through by half a mm or so, then plane them flush after the glue is dry, for a perfect appearance.



He does pins first as it suits him better. He cuts them by eye and can saw straight down quickly. But marking out the tail board is harder.


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## Just4Fun

Devmeister said:


> OMG A tennon saw? Use a metal hacksaw until you can get a dovetail saw.


I have used the tenon saw for years - decades - and I can cut accurate dovetails with it. Usually they fit straight off the saw.



> A dovetail saw has two differences of note. First it has the shape of a tennon saw but it’s cut as a rip saw. Second, the saw set is set very fine for better control and to improve surface finish.


I have filed the tenon saw teeth for rip cuts, so that is not my issue. I have sort of reduced the set, but less set, a higher tooth count and a finer finish would be nice - that is why I want a dovetail saw.



> what’s great about eBay UK is that you can find lots of the older English stuff.


That would be nice. Over here there are plenty of flea markets and some local auction sites but I have never even seen a dovetail saw for sale. Nor do I know anyone who owns one.


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## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> Brilliant vid from Klausz. I'm sort of getting there but not quite as snappy!
> He does pins first but I reckon most trad workers did sockets first - because you can do two sides clamped together in one op and speed things up. You can see it on old drawers where the little variations on one side match the other side exactly.
> PS he does it sideways but easier turned facing the bench I think. And if you are doing a lot have a high stool - lot of leaning forwards etc gets uncomfortable, back ache etc, sitting down and you can be at it all day, perhaps.
> Another thing is to set the gauge line slightly over so the ends stick through by half a mm or so, then plane them flush after the glue is dry, for a perfect appearance.



I have the most respect for klusze and love his music. But I like Becksvort approach better. YouTube Just another dovetailing video. One key take away from frank is “inside of tree/outside of drawer”. This grain orientation allows the joint to tighten as the wood dries and shrinks


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## Just4Fun

Jacob said:


> n.b. there's no particular virtue in a fine kerf itself


I tried a zona saw with an extremely narrow kerf and really liked that feature. The saw itself though was just too flimsy for me and I soon abandoned it. I want something between that and my tenon saw.


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## Devmeister

Just4Fun said:


> I have used the tenon saw for years - decades - and I can cut accurate dovetails with it. Usually they fit straight off the saw.
> 
> 
> I have filed the tenon saw teeth for rip cuts, so that is not my issue. I have sort of reduced the set, but less set, a higher tooth count and a finer finish would be nice - that is why I want a dovetail saw.
> 
> 
> That would be nice. Over here there are plenty of flea markets and some local auction sites but I have never even seen a dovetail saw for sale. Nor do I know anyone who owns one.



I am in the states. Finding the good stuff is one step above impossible so I opted for new.

Frank Klauze used a bow saw. I started with a coping saw and hacksaw. I have tip tennon and cross tennon saws. It can be done if you master the control. Some like Japanese saws. After years of doing this my muscle memory likes the English saw which cuts on the push. I don’t like to cut on the pull. But there are no fast rules here.


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## Adam W.

I'm sure this must have been a whole lot easier in 1850.

Anyway, pins first is a mainland thing and on the island we'd never do it the same way as the Germans.


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## Devmeister

LOL… Didn’t have the boss wondering why your not running the job on the CNC router!

He had me run 25 feet of molding on a point to point CNC router. Took 30 min to run one stick. I could have run twice the foot count in half the time on the Wynig molder.

But what if your matching a molding on old furniture? You need less than ten feet. By the time you program the CNC or god help you, grind knives for the shaper or molder etc. I can have the job done with wooden bodied hollow and round planes.


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## Devmeister

Just4Fun said:


> I tried a zona saw with an extremely narrow kerf and really liked that feature. The saw itself though was just too flimsy for me and I soon abandoned it. I want something between that and my tenon saw.


 Agreed. The English saw has a narrow kerf but it’s got a brass backbone. The flexi nature of Japanese saws is uncomfortable even when they cut on the pull.


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## Jacob

What about Klausz's way with a cabinet scraper hammered in to complete a saw cut in a blind socket? Is that a goer or is he just being clever?


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## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> What about Klausz's way with a cabinet scraper hammered in to complete a saw cut in a blind socket? Is that a goer or is he just being clever?


Both! He did this for a living so it’s about saving time. I use sharp chisels and pare my way to the end.

I like the sharp neat corners of the socket you get with hand tools. No machine will get you that.

once you have your initial saw kerf, you have a guide to help you pare down by nibbling away the stock.


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## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> ......
> 
> I like the sharp neat corners of the socket you get with hand tools. ......


Not so easy with pine - I find myself having to work very carefully to knife or gauge cut lines but the sides of the sockets break out and look messy. They end up out of sight so that's OK.


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## Just4Fun

Jacob said:


> What about Klausz's way with a cabinet scraper hammered in to complete a saw cut in a blind socket? Is that a goer or is he just being clever?


I do that and find it works well. Best to do it in stages though - start near the face of the piece and work in to the full depth of the socket in 2 or 3 bites.


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## Cabinetman

I remember Mike G now gone member of this parish used a cut off square butter knife (Bone handled type) to do that with instead of the cabinet scraper, The more I think about it I’m sure it would work well. Ian


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## Jacob

Just4Fun said:


> I do that and find it works well. Best to do it in stages though - start near the face of the piece and work in to the full depth of the socket in 2 or 3 bites.


Right I'll give it a go.
Just checked my 2 old S&J DT saws - they both have 0.4mm thick plate and 21 t.p.i. which is as good as you get I imagine. Difficult to sharpen - can't see the teeth so have to black felt tip first and rely on the shiny filed teeth for reference, and just do same stroke from end to end one way and then the other. Not perfectly even but seem to cut OK


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## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> Not so easy with pine - I find myself having to work very carefully to knife or gauge cut lines but the sides of the sockets break out and look messy. They end up out of sight so that's OK.


Pine is a soft wood but modern pine is fourth or fifth generation these days. That means wide jouvenile growth rings and softer more fiberous sap wood. In the states, Townsend was a decifle of chippendale and his work was walnut and pine (often not always). Chippendale used Cuban mahogany and oak or sycamore.

when working modern pine, you need super sharp tools and take your time. I personally hate the stuff esp the knots and it’s questionable stability. Pattern grade surgar pine is a joy to work with. Alaskan yellow cedar is awsome!!!! It’s growth rings are insane tight, machines like plastic and offers total control with hand tools. Aspen and poplar are good choices for cheap drawer linings. Bubinga esp figured is a nightmare!


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## Adam W.

If you can cut spruce endgrain cleanly, you can pretty much cut anything, which is why it's such a good wood to practice on.

It's a crumbly nightmare and demands sharp tools and good technique, oak is a doddle compared to it.


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## paulrbarnard

Jacob said:


> What about Klausz's way with a cabinet scraper hammered in to complete a saw cut in a blind socket? Is that a goer or is he just being clever?


I’ve tried it and it works but I tend to be happier just paring out with a chisel


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## pgrbff

I confess I haven't read the whole thread yet, but here is someone who makes dovetailing look easy.

Sorry, same person, different post on YT.


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## Nelly111s

I know @Peter Sefton has given a lot of info earlier in this thread, but here’s another resource from Chris Tribe, which I found very useful. 









A video giving a step buy step guide to cutting thru dovetails.


Detailed instructions on how to cut through dovetails, intended for the beginner or improver.




www.christribefurniturecourses.com





There’s also a pdf for those who like to read rather than watch









How to cut good dovetails by hand - The campaign for slow dovetails.


An article describing how to set out and hand cut dovetails by hand with an emphasis on quality rather than speed.




www.christribefurniturecourses.com


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## Kaizen123

Great to have such a healthy load of tips here. I have a couple questions if I can.

So first or all I'm gonna jump into this saw debate. I have a Presch dovetailsaw (what it was listed as on Amazon) and it seems very thick for a decent fine cut. It's also got teeth more like a normal jobsite saw and not fine at all so it feels like it's impossible to get a good cut started. It also feels clunky and the handle off to the side thing is not my favourite. I know its for changing over sides when you need it but it just doesn't feel good to use for accurate fine cutting at all. Other than that it's alright but not fit for begginers dovetailing perhaps. I am definitely going to get myself the Suizan 265mm Kataba. £25 and the blade is a lot thinner and finer than the Presch me thinks.

The next thing is my dovetail marker (also Amazon). I am looking at dovetails people have done and it looks like there is a much bigger angle on them. You can make them any size you want right? 1:8 being the most common for hardwood in England? Anyway. I'm wondering now if I'm using it correctly. Am I supposed to use both the 'inside' and 'outside' markers for one joint? I am a bit confuddled with it. Just because of the angles I have seen on other dovetails look a lot more noticeable than mine.

So am I even using the marker correctly?


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## Jameshow

Derek in Perth is a master of dovetails...

Well worth looking at his WIP tbh. 

Cheers James


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## Kaizen123

Adam W. said:


> If you can cut spruce endgrain cleanly, you can pretty much cut anything, which is why it's such a good wood to practice on.
> 
> It's a crumbly nightmare and demands sharp tools and good technique, oak is a doddle compared to it.


I've still got my Christmas tree!! Might try it


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## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> Great to have such a healthy load of tips here. I have a couple questions if I can.
> 
> So first or all I'm gonna jump into this saw debate. I have a Presch dovetailsaw (what it was listed as on Amazon) and it seems very thick for a decent fine cut. It's also got teeth more like a normal jobsite saw and not fine at all so it feels like it's impossible to get a good cut started. It also feels clunky and the handle off to the side thing is not my favourite. I know its for changing over sides when you need it but it just doesn't feel good to use for accurate fine cutting at all. Other than that it's alright but not fit for begginers dovetailing perhaps. I am definitely going to get myself the Suizan 265mm Kataba. £25 and the blade is a lot thinner and finer than the Presch me thinks.
> 
> The next thing is my dovetail marker (also Amazon). I am looking at dovetails people have done and it looks like there is a much bigger angle on them. You can make them any size you want right? 1:8 being the most common for hardwood in England? Anyway. I'm wondering now if I'm using it correctly. Am I supposed to use both the 'inside' and 'outside' markers for one joint? I am a bit confuddled with it. Just because of the angles I have seen on other dovetails look a lot more noticeable than mine.
> 
> So am I even using the marker correctly?


Yes saw looks crape!
Sliding bevel works just as well as a marker, but you can do them freehand if you don't mind a bit of variation! Those "correct" ratios (1/8, 1/6) are just a guide - in the real world they vary from near zero to near 45º.


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## Ttrees

Jacob said:


> Sliding bevel works just as well as a marker, but you can do them freehand eventually. Those "correct" ratios (1/8, 1/6) are just a guide - in the real world they vary from near zero to near 45º.


Yea, I never clocked it that things are relative to proportion.
Cosman pointed that out well in the video underneath, as many of the boxes he makes the sides are chunkier than many folks make them.
Clipped to the part I was on about


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## Kaizen123

Does this look like good info on ratio... ing?


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## paulrbarnard

Kaizen123 said:


> Great to have such a healthy load of tips here. I have a couple questions if I can.
> 
> So first or all I'm gonna jump into this saw debate. I have a Presch dovetailsaw (what it was listed as on Amazon) and it seems very thick for a decent fine cut. It's also got teeth more like a normal jobsite saw and not fine at all so it feels like it's impossible to get a good cut started. It also feels clunky and the handle off to the side thing is not my favourite. I know its for changing over sides when you need it but it just doesn't feel good to use for accurate fine cutting at all. Other than that it's alright but not fit for begginers dovetailing perhaps. I am definitely going to get myself the Suizan 265mm Kataba. £25 and the blade is a lot thinner and finer than the Presch me thinks.
> 
> The next thing is my dovetail marker (also Amazon). I am looking at dovetails people have done and it looks like there is a much bigger angle on them. You can make them any size you want right? 1:8 being the most common for hardwood in England? Anyway. I'm wondering now if I'm using it correctly. Am I supposed to use both the 'inside' and 'outside' markers for one joint? I am a bit confuddled with it. Just because of the angles I have seen on other dovetails look a lot more noticeable than mine.
> 
> So am I even using the marker correctly?



The saw does look horrendous. To be able to make an accurate and straight cut you need to be able to control the saw. My preference is a pistol grip western saw. What you will find is after cutting a number of dovetails you develope a muscle memory and can repeatedly cut at the same angle each time. I cut my tails first and cut all the same sides of a row of tails then twist my wrist to get the other angle and cut the other sides. I find the pistol grip to be much better for a repeated registration in the hand. But many people prefer the round gents saw type handle and that's fine too.

For the marking out I think you are having some struggles. The angles are important but not critical. The difference is generally for hardwood vs softwood. A typical hardwood tail will be 1 in 7 and a typical softwood tail would be 1 in 6. That said as long as the tail is not too extreme pretty much any angle will work that gives an ecstatic that you are happy, 1 in 8 is a good option that will work with everything. There is no need to have exactly the same angle on both sides of the tail. If I'm doing a "fancy" joint where the joint is a part of the design look then I will lay them out accurately to get even spacing using dividers and a dovetail marker to get consistent angles. 
Here is an example where the joint is an integral part of the design so these were laid out accurately



If I'm just making a box to hold some tools then I only mark the depth I need to cut (the thickness of the pin board) using a marking gauge. Then pencil a line across the tops of the tails, on the width of the board, with a square so that I have a guide to cutting straight. I don't mark down the side of the tail at all and simply angle the saw to what feels right then cut down to the gauge line.

I might be wrong but I think you are placing your dovetail gauge on the wood and drawing both edges of a tail directly from the gauge without moving it. The dovetail gauge is realy just a specialised square and you should use it in the same way. Slide it up to the point where you want to mark the angle then move it to the next place. I mark all one angle first then go back and mark the other side of the tails using the oppoisite angle on the gauge. After that you don't use it again. The pins are marked directly from the tails after the tails are cut. With the exception of the gauge line for depth I use a pencil to mark out the tails. The pins are traced from the tails using a knife.

Just a comment, one that might get some debate, is that cutting the tails first lets you saw the less critical angled cut first. If you don't cut the angle consistently on each tail it doesn't matter. As long as the cut is at right angles to the board it is fine. When you cut the pins you have the marking knife line to show you exactly what angle you need to cut across the board to match the tails it will fit with and the saw cut is simply perpendicular to the top of the board. Cutting with a saw perpendicular to a board edge is much easier than trying to cut to a desired angle. Grab yourself a board and use a square to scribe a few lines accross the edge of the board then use your dove tail gauge to continue a few of the lines down the board like you are marking tails. Then use the square to mark a few of them at 90 degrees like you would do for pins. Have at them with your saw and I think you will find that you will be able to cut more accurately to the 90 degree lines than the angled lines. For me that is the main reason for Tails first. Tails first is also a litte easir to deal with when marking the pins from the tails compared to the tails from the pins. You will find that some people will angle the board in a vice so that the tail cut lines are straight up and down and may be something you want to try but for me it is an extra step i don't use.

Edit: Corrected my softwood tail angle. My dyslexia for the better of me and i looked at my guge upside down. I use 1:6 not 1:9


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## Cooper

Lots of good advice above but life is too short for me to read all of it. My advice, as someone who taught children wood work a long time ago, is that practice surprisingly makes make perfect. 
The other more useful but dishonest is that if you are making a piece with a lot of pins and tails and you are not entirely sure of your skills, cut the pins and tails a bit long. Then if it all goes together nicely, but still there are a few gaps, you have a bit of extra wood that you can "rivet" with a few judicious taps. 
This may have been suggested above already.
Good luck and keep up the good work
Martin


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## thetyreman

looking at that saw, first thing I'd do is replace it, look up vintage dovetail saw on ebay and it'll come up with loads of them, spear and jackson spearior are good, that's the one I use, make sure it's not a hardpoint saw then you can easily sharpen it and learn how to do it, another skill that shouldn't be avoided. I like 14-16 tpi for dovetails, 20 tpi is a bit too fine and much harder to sharpen.


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## thetyreman

Adam W. said:


> If you can cut spruce endgrain cleanly, you can pretty much cut anything, which is why it's such a good wood to practice on.
> 
> It's a crumbly nightmare and demands sharp tools and good technique, oak is a doddle compared to it.



+1 that's why I like using spruce and also pines, if you can do it in that species it'll work with anything.


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## isaac3d

There are many very useful videos demonstrating how to do dovetails by hand on youtube. Some have slightly different techniques for the different steps (some requiring or using different tools), so you may want to look at several of these videos. You will then at least get a good idea for the general steps and what is important.
Personally, I like Matt Estlea's videos. His demonstration of how to make dovetails () is detailed and he shows possible alternative techniques and how to correct small errors. 
As has been pointed out, practice makes perfect, so keep at it and maybe even make a few dovetails with scrap wood just as practice or start with a project that is not so important.
Good luck and have fun; it's really satisfying when the tails and pins fit together and there are no significant gaps


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## Kaizen123

Third time is coming along nicely. Cut too deep at the top but... It's coming.

I'm definitely in team scroll saw I think. I find it ALOT easier for dealing with the meat of the cut, cutting it out in triangular sections rather than chiselling it out. Then shaving it down with the chisel.


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## Adam W.

This time next week you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.


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## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> Does this look like good info on ratio... ing?



Yes. He's saying do what you like. I think mine freehand come out about 1:4. Have a look at old furniture to see how they did it.


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## pgrbff

Kaizen123 said:


> Third time is coming along nicely. Cut too deep at the top but... It's coming.
> 
> I'm definitely in team scroll saw I think. I find it ALOT easier for dealing with the meat of the cut, cutting it out in triangular sections rather than chiselling it out. Then shaving it down with the chisel.


I think I agreed with you on the scrollsaw, in fact only yesterday I received my fretsaw from Germany. 
Having watched the Cerritos college YT video, however, I quite liked his chisel approach.


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## pgrbff

Jacob said:


> Yes. He's saying do what you like. I think mine freehand come out about 1:4. Have a look at old furniture to see how they did it.


Isn't it supposed to depend to some extent on whether it is softwood or hardwood furniture?


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## thetyreman

I just use 1:7 for everything, it works for me, then there's no messing about with 2 ratio's and to my eye it looks fine in hard and softwood.


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## Kaizen123

pgrbff said:


> I think I agreed with you on the scrollsaw, in fact only yesterday I received my fretsaw from Germany.
> Having watched the Cerritos college YT video, however, I quite liked his chisel approach.


Can I ask what the difference is between a fret and a scroll saw? I've got it in my mind that a fret is like a little metal cutting rope rather than a blade?


----------



## Jacob

pgrbff said:


> Isn't it supposed to depend to some extent on whether it is softwood or hardwood furniture?


A bit yes, but the difference between 1:6 and 1:8 is totally insignificant.
What happens with woodwork is that somebody asks about the elusive "correct" method and somebody else comes up with half credible idea off the top of his head, which then becomes gospel and repeated as such for evermore, even though it's not particularly "correct' at all, although not "wrong".
Quick snaps of cupboard I'm sitting close to. 100 or more years old? Was renovated from a wreck which had been outside in a cowshed for years. All softwood. DT ratios look 1:3 or steeper and still in good nick. They are different on each drawer.


----------



## pgrbff

Kaizen123 said:


> Can I ask what the difference is between a fret and a scroll saw? I've got it in my mind that a fret is like a little metal cutting rope rather than a blade?


I'm not sure if this is the whole answer but it is possibly used more for metal, but works perfectly well in wood with the right blade, and the saw blade is held in the saw differently, it doesn't have the small pins sticking out, it's completely flat and held with a grub type screw.
I bought it because I feel it is much more precise than a coping saw.
And much finer blades available too on a fretsaw.


----------



## Kaizen123

pgrbff said:


> I'm not sure if this is the whole answer but it is possibly used more for metal, but works perfectly well in wood with the right blade, and the saw blade is held in the saw differently, it doesn't have the small pins sticking out, it's completely flat and held with a grub type screw.
> I bought it because I feel it is much more precise than a coping saw.
> And much finer blades available too on a fretsaw.


Does it bend through the wood well like a coping saw?


----------



## Kaizen123

Jacob said:


> A bit yes, but the difference between 1:6 and 1:8 is totally insignificant.
> What happens with woodwork is that somebody asks about the elusive "correct" method and somebody else comes up with half credible idea off the top of his head, which then becomes gospel and repeated as such for evermore, even though it's not particularly "correct' at all, although not "wrong".
> Quick snaps of cupboard I'm sitting close to. 100 or more years old? Was renovated from a wreck which had been outside in a cowshed for years. All softwood. DT ratios look 1:3 or steeper and still in good nick. They are different on each drawer.View attachment 126995
> View attachment 126996
> View attachment 126997


This another thing I've seen that the tops of the dovetail cuts are SOOOO close together on alot of stuff. Is that for strength or looks or what?


----------



## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> This another thing I've seen that the tops of the dovetail cuts are SOOOO close together on alot of stuff. Is that for strength or looks or what?


Slender pins done with single kerf - saw leans one way then into the same kerf to lean the other. Not strong, just easier and looks neat. For a strong DT e.g on a water tank, ammo box etc, tails and pins roughly same size.


----------



## Cabinetman

Kaizen123 said:


> Does it bend through the wood well like a coping saw?


 You probably don’t need anything quite as fine as a fret saw for cutting out the waste on dovetails, if you’re struggling with a coping saw which most people do to start with, start off with the coping saw in the cut you have made with the dovetail saw and then pushing it backwards and forwards slowly turn the handle so that it can cut/turn gradually then when you are at the horizontal you can just go straight ahead and cut across. Ian


----------



## Just4Fun

Jacob said:


> Slender pins done with single kerf - saw leans one way then into the same kerf to lean the other. Not strong, just easier and looks neat.


Cutting the tails like that is easy enough but I find it surprisingly tricky to mark out and cut the matching pins. I agree that slender pins look nice but I usually cut pins with a bit more width to them.


----------



## pgrbff

Kaizen123 said:


> Does it bend through the wood well like a coping saw?


It works exactly like a coping saw, just much finer if you want. Some fretsaws have fixed blades but the blade is so fine you easily turn a corner, with other fretsaws you can turn the blade and some have fixed stops, usually at 45 degrees.
Matt Eastlea did a fretsaw comparison in one of his videos.


----------



## Devmeister

pgrbff said:


> I confess I haven't read the whole thread yet, but here is someone who makes dovetailing look easy.
> 
> Sorry, same person, different post on YT.




Yup that’s Frank! Note why he cuts the pin board first…… no layout of the tails …..Note the importance of the angle .,.. it just needs to be close. Note he has absolute control of saw and where he is wasting the line.

Big issue with fixed router jigs… your bloody half pins! You need them! Not half tails but half pins!

First thing he does is cut two half pins and that gets you one tail! The he makes a series of cuts to divide the tail into three or four tails.

For a general purpose box or case where the tails get covered, this is perfectly good. When the piece is more visable with more scrutiny you may wish to do more precise layout. He is one of the old masters and worth leaning from.


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## Adam W.

I think we've reached the point where we can introduce Kaare Loftheim and his handsome chisels at Colonial Williamsburg.


----------



## Devmeister

Just4Fun said:


> Cutting the tails like that is easy enough but I find it surprisingly tricky to mark out and cut the matching pins. I agree that slender pins look nice but I usually cut pins with a bit more width to them.



it’s hard to know why many masters did this. I think it may have been a means to get more tails. I did a machinist chest years back where I needed two tails on the narrow drawers. Not easy! The machine router jig was not even close. Needed small precise tails.

solved by going to the pin tail. While a standard tail is stronger than a pin tail, it’s not by much. For the loads involved, it’s almost a non issue.

marking out the second board is tricky. Take a deep breath. I also use a long nose chip carving knife here. Razer sharp and let’s you get into the tight space.


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## Devmeister

In the half lap or blind. It is most often tails first cuz you need to mark out the sockets. If you do sockets first you cannot mark the tails. On a thru, either way works and it’s presence


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## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> it’s hard to know why many masters did this.


It's done on ordinary stuff too.


> .......
> 
> marking out the second board is tricky. Take a deep breath. I also use a long nose chip carving knife here. Razer sharp and let’s you get into the tight space.


I use a craft knife with a thin chisel end blade and just tap it with a pin hammer, no knife stroke. Turn it with face side against side of pin hole, bevel on the other. Have to have cut rather than pencil lines with pine, as the surface isn't crisp enough for a fine line


----------



## Devmeister

thetyreman said:


> looking at that saw, first thing I'd do is replace it, look up vintage dovetail saw on ebay and it'll come up with loads of them, spear and jackson spearior are good, that's the one I use, make sure it's not a hardpoint saw then you can easily sharpen it and learn how to do it, another skill that shouldn't be avoided. I like 14-16 tpi for dovetails, 20 tpi is a bit too fine and much harder to sharpen.


Agreed. Also remember you want good surface finish. You don’t want a polished perfect surface as this thing is a glue joint. A bit of roughness helps here. The 10 to 16 TPI rip is an excellent balance here. You can see the teeth for sharpening, you have good speed on the cut, your surface is professional and the glue can bite.


----------



## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> It's done on ordinary stuff too.I use a craft knife with a thin chisel end blade and just tap it with a pin hammer, no knife stroke. Turn it with face side against side of pin hole, bevel on the other. Have to have cut rather than pencil lines with pine, as the surface isn't crisp enough for a fine line


Its about comfort and control. When you find something that works stick with it. I use one hand to hold the first board and the other to mark out. So tapping never occurred to me. But it makes sense.


----------



## Devmeister

Cooper said:


> Lots of good advice above but life is too short for me to read all of it. My advice, as someone who taught children wood work a long time ago, is that practice surprisingly makes make perfect.
> The other more useful but dishonest is that if you are making a piece with a lot of pins and tails and you are not entirely sure of your skills, cut the pins and tails a bit long. Then if it all goes together nicely, but still there are a few gaps, you have a bit of extra wood that you can "rivet" with a few judicious taps.
> This may have been suggested above already.
> Good luck and keep up the good work
> Martin


When you do woodworking for a paycheck you often get into fake wood. My last job was programming and running CNC dowel inserters and flat bed routers. Particle board MDF melamine commercial stuff. It sucks cow manure compared to real woodworking.

in my personal shop I do both metal and wood. The most awsome dovetail is the one on English planes like the Norris.

here you have brass sides and steel bottoms. The tails are also double splayed!!!!!

the only way to do this is to use a peening hammer to flow the metal into position on the second splay.

so your suggestion of peening the wood to fill gaps is excellent. You limited to how much you can peen into submission compared to metal but it is a useful trick to stash in your mental toolbox.

I am in the states but I more and more turn to the old English masters before they pass on. Guys like Bill Carter are a walking gem!


----------



## paulrbarnard

pgrbff said:


> I'm not sure if this is the whole answer but it is possibly used more for metal, but works perfectly well in wood with the right blade, and the saw blade is held in the saw differently, it doesn't have the small pins sticking out, it's completely flat and held with a grub type screw.
> I bought it because I feel it is much more precise than a coping saw.
> And much finer blades available too on a fretsaw.


A coping saw is designed for coping. A fret saw is designed for fret work. Fret saws are generally lighter and finer than coping saws. A fret saw is typically used with a horizontal supporting table.
The metalworking equivalent of a fret saw is a jewlers saw and has an adjustable length.

Of course all three frame types can be used with wood or metal cutting blades.

There is a nice comparison image this site perfect-cuts-with-coping-fret-saws-coping-saw


----------



## Devmeister

pgrbff said:


> It works exactly like a coping saw, just much finer if you want. Some fretsaws have fixed blades but the blade is so fine you easily turn a corner, with other fretsaws you can turn the blade and some have fixed stops, usually at 45 degrees.
> Matt Eastlea did a fretsaw comparison in one of his videos.


I have a jewelers saw and a coping saw with a red CNC body. Don’t recall who made it but it was pricey.
I like these saws for small precise work and I got the red saw to help with dovetails.

what I don’t like is the trade off between super precise control of a very fine blade and speed of cut.

I went back to useing my old vintage marples and sorbby chisels. On the straight cuts, I can’t beat the English dovetail saw. Speed, accuracy, surface finish. It’s all there.


----------



## Kaizen123

#3 attempt looking better, feeling better and I consider Dovetailing a much less complicated mystery now. Thanks a lot guys! I've learned I need to update my saw, probably invest in a fret saw in the future and I think I've pretty much got the gist of this joint now. The basics anyway. Very very please and very grateful for all your advice!


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## mikej460

Getting better  you might want to make the pins a little longer next time and plane or sand them flush


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## Kaizen123

Thanks @mikej460 it's actually a really good feeling!


----------



## Fred48

Hi Kaizen 123
I personally Mark my tails and pins using a Marking knife. I saw an excellent marking knife and dovetail template in one of your photos. Hope this helps.
Cheers 
Fred


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## Kaizen123

Yes @Fred48 I do have a good marking knife  and my pencil is not nearly as accurate BUT I have just been trying to get the gist. The next one I do is going to be marked properly on proper hardwood and be proper good and I'll be a proper respectable novice woodworker.... I hope. I have been given a challenge to learn these and I'm having an absolute blast doing so. You've all been so helpful.

@Fred48 would you use masking tape and cut it like has been described by a couple of folks? Seems like a really clear way of marking up for a newbie like me.


----------



## Adam W.

Kaare Loftheim gives you lots of pointers on how and what to do in the video I posted. It's not just applicable to mitre dovetails, but for all dovetail joints.

It's worth watching it a few times, to pick up the tips he's offering.


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## Jacob

This my set up for marking from thin pin holes to front of drawer. Drawer front has bevel to be taken off the face which accounts for its apparent thickness.
The "single kerf"pin holes are a saw kerf wide (0.5mm) at the point but the cheapo craft knife (found in a box of odds n ends) is thinner. Just tap it in chisel face tight up to face of the socket, with handy little hammer (thanks Mr Ed). Gives a very precise line very easily. Difficult with a knife, impossible with a pencil.
In the end its as easy/difficult as any other shape of DT.






Here's one I did earlier (about 22 years ago in fact):


----------



## baldkev

Devmeister said:


> One key take away from frank is “inside of tree/outside of drawer”. This grain orientation allows the joint to tighten as the wood dries and shrinks


That makes sense, good tip!



paulrbarnard said:


> Here is an example where the joint is an integral part of the design so these were laid out accurately



Nice work! Love the lid!!!


----------



## Fred48

Kaizen123 said:


> Yes @Fred48 I do have a good marking knife  and my pencil is not nearly as accurate BUT I have just been trying to get the gist. The next one I do is going to be marked properly on proper hardwood and be proper good and I'll be a proper respectable novice woodworker.... I hope. I have been given a challenge to learn these and I'm having an absolute blast doing so. You've all been so helpful.
> 
> @Fred48 would you use masking tape and cut it like has been described by a couple of folks? Seems like a really clear way of marking up for a newbie like me.


Hi Kaizen. I have never used the masking tape method. I mark the shape of the tails with a Marking knife and dovetail template.
I try and make the depth of the knife cut around 1/2 mm. (I will return to this again later in the marking out process)
I use a pencil to mark the waste part of the joint.
Next is the hand saw where I cut 1/2 mm away from the knife line, in the waste part of the joint.
I use a jewlers saw to remove the majority of the waste between the 'tails' close to the 'shoulder line'.
Back to marking the 'tails'.
I then use the knife and dovetail template again to make a deeper cut into the wood to a depth of around 1mm. 
I would then use a chisel to remove the waste up to the knife line. 
Hope this helps
Cheers
Fred


----------



## Kaizen123

Jacob said:


> This my set up for marking from thin pin holes to front of drawer. Drawer front has bevel to be taken off the face which accounts for its apparent thickness.
> The "single kerf"pin holes are a saw kerf wide (0.5mm) at the point but the cheapo craft knife (found in a box of odds n ends) is thinner. Just tap it in chisel face tight up to face of the socket, with handy little hammer (thanks Mr Ed). Gives a very precise line very easily. Difficult with a knife, impossible with a pencil.
> In the end its as easy/difficult as any other shape of DT.
> 
> View attachment 127041
> 
> 
> Here's one I did earlier (about 22 years ago in fact):
> View attachment 127042


I'm going to try this today.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin

Jacob said:


> The "single kerf"pin holes are a saw kerf wide (0.5mm) at the point



I might have missed this, sorry - are these skinny dovetails any easier/harder than chunkier ones? Any difference in strength? I'm guessing from the 22 year old ones that they're entirely functional...


----------



## pgrbff

Devmeister said:


> OMG A 2mm kerf! OMG A tennon saw? Use a metal hacksaw until you can get a dovetail saw.
> 
> A dovetail saw has two differences of note. First it has the shape of a tennon saw but it’s cut as a rip saw. Second, the saw set is set very fine for better control and to improve surface finish. A fine set means it cannot clear chips from the kerf as well as other saws but in a dovetail operation that is rarely an issue.
> 
> Some dovetail saws have variable tooth pitch. I have never seen this to be an advantage.
> 
> In time some ho so far as to sharpen and even make their own DT saws. The Lie Nielsen saw is pricy but it’s based on the independence DT saw which was a copy of an old English saw. Mine is an independence saw which I got prior to LN buying them.
> 
> what’s great about eBay UK is that you can find lots of the older English stuff. The English had this stuff down. In the US we have to work harder. LN had been a great help here.


In the UK dovetail saws are sold as both crosscut an rip. I have a Pax crosscut 20 tpi.


----------



## Just4Fun

Fred48 said:


> I try and make the depth of the knife cut around 1/2 mm.
> ...
> Next is the hand saw where I cut 1/2 mm away from the knife line
> ...
> I then use the knife and dovetail template again to make a deeper cut into the wood to a depth of around 1mm.
> I would then use a chisel to remove the waste up to the knife line.


Fred, that is certainly a safe approach and I probably did it that way when I started. The disadvantage is that it is making work and not really developing skill. It is quicker (not actually important to me) and I find it enormously satisfying to cut straight to the line so the joint goes together with no additional "fettling" of the sides with a chisel. This of course requires accurate saw cuts that nobody can expect to do without practise, but you will never be able to do that if you never try.

Try marking out a series of parallel cuts (angled like on a dovetail) just a few mm apart on the end of a piece of scrap, then saw against the line. I bet when you have done 20 you will be pretty close & consistent. Then try an actual dovetail cut direct from the saw. You may surprise yourself.


----------



## Jacob

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I might have missed this, sorry - are these skinny dovetails any easier/harder than chunkier ones? Any difference in strength? I'm guessing from the 22 year old ones that they're entirely functional...


 Just a particular style and very common. No easier/harder, except you only have to have one straight kerf to start it off, instead of two.
For most purposes strength isn't much of an an issue with DTs unless for heavy loads such as water tanks, ammo boxes and similar, when equal sized pins and tails are presumed stronger.


----------



## Just4Fun

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I might have missed this, sorry - are these skinny dovetails any easier/harder than chunkier ones? Any difference in strength? I'm guessing from the 22 year old ones that they're entirely functional...


In theory I see no reason why they should be any easier or harder to cut than wider ones but in practise I find them harder. I don't understand why and it could be just me.

I would expect - but don't know for sure - that a strength test would show the really skinny ones to be weaker. I don't think that is important though. In a typical drawer or box application ultimate strength is not needed and any tight joint will be strong enough, particularly with modern glues. A really skinny pin often looks more elegant to my eyes and this seems to be the fashion in recent years, but it is really up to you. Make what you like.

Edit: Jacob beat me to it, more succinctly to boot.


----------



## Jacob

Just4Fun said:


> In theory I see no reason why they should be any easier or harder to cut than wider ones but in practise I find them harder. I don't understand why and it could be just me.
> 
> I would expect - but don't know for sure - that a strength test would show the really skinny ones to be weaker. I don't think that is important though. In a typical drawer or box application ultimate strength is not needed and any tight joint will be strong enough, particularly with modern glues. A really skinny pin often looks more elegant to my eyes and this seems to be the fashion in recent years, but it is really up to you. Make what you like.
> 
> Edit: Jacob beat me to it, more succinctly to boot.


It's an old fashion - you see it in a lot of old furniture. Sometimes done for trim appearance but also I guess because it's slightly easier to cut a pair of sides together with just one kerf to start off each pin hole.
There's some interesting sites out there, showing the variety, e.g. Drawer Front Dovetail Evolution
I hit on this one this morning: 
Maramureș, northern Romania. Dovetail joints on the corner of a traditional old timber house in the village of Botiza


----------



## Adam W.

You see a lot of tool chests with whopping great tails and a few slim pins........


----------



## Jacob

Basically the more there are the more the work; the number of cuts and more careful chiseling back to the sides.
Hence drawer sides quite common with just one massive DT. Saves a lot of effin about!






Dovetails – A Clue for Dating Antiques – Harp Gallery Antique Furniture Blog







www.harpgallery.com


----------



## paulrbarnard

Adam W. said:


> You see a lot of tool chests with whopping great tails and a few slim pins........
> 
> View attachment 127065
> View attachment 127066


Like this one




this is one I made.


----------



## Kaizen123

Just4Fun said:


> Fred, that is certainly a safe approach and I probably did it that way when I started. The disadvantage is that it is making work and not really developing skill. It is quicker (not actually important to me) and I find it enormously satisfying to cut straight to the line so the joint goes together with no additional "fettling" of the sides with a chisel. This of course requires accurate saw cuts that nobody can expect to do without practise, but you will never be able to do that if you never try.
> 
> Try marking out a series of parallel cuts (angled like on a dovetail) just a few mm apart on the end of a piece of scrap, then saw against the line. I bet when you have done 20 you will be pretty close & consistent. Then try an actual dovetail cut direct from the saw. You may surprise yourself.


That last attempt at a dovetail I did (#3) I managed to pretty much do most of it with the scrollsaw. Or at least did the lion's share of it and it did make me think that would be possible just to cut it with a fine saw at that angle. Take a bit more skill and I am REALLY enjoying chiselling. It's very satisfying. But yes, I do want to try do one just with a saw but I'm waiting on my Japanese jobby to tackle that.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin

Jacob said:


> Just a particular style and very common. No easier/harder, except you only have to have one straight kerf to start it off, instead of two.
> For most purposes strength isn't much of an an issue with DTs unless for heavy loads such as water tanks, ammo boxes and similar, when equal sized pins and tails are presumed stronger.



Thank you - and apologies, I think you've posted exactly that before, quite possibly in this thread!


----------



## thetyreman

one I made earlier...


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

I recently posted a picture of a travel box I made for a set of chisels I take to demonstrate at wood shows and joinery workshops. It replaced this box, which was originally made to house 5 chisels, and was now too small for the 7 chisels that need to be stored.

Original box ...











As an aside, the narrow tips are harder to make as the sockets are more fragile when clearing the waste from the corners. In terms of overall strength, narrow dovetails (often called "London" dovetails) are no weaker than wider dovetails. I think that they just look more elegant.

Anyway, the other reason I wanted to make a new chisel box was because I thought that this one, made 10 years ago, was a little too "in your face". I was planning to be at a workshop (this past Saturday), and wanted the new box for then. The new chisel box is actually many times more complex to make. However, only experienced dovetailers will know this. 

This is the new box ...












Why is this box so much more difficult?

The dovetails in the first box look impressive because they are half blinds and because they are pointy "London" style. But they are still just half blind dovetails and, because the tail is hidden inside the socket, I described these as 1 Dimensional.







Now take the through dovetail. It is open on two sides. Both sides are open for scrutiny. Therefor I would refer to these as joinery in 2 Dimensions ...






The new box has mitred through dovetails, which are used to hide the grooves for the bottom and the sliding lid. These mitres add a big jump in complexity - a third dimension. Each of these sides must come together at the same time, otherwise there will be gaps at the side and front. In other words, joinery in 3 Dimensions.

This is a model of mitred through dovetails ..







This is the new box before glue up ...






Rob Cosman was asked to demonstrate a mitred through dovetail. He declined, saying that he had never made one. I understand and accept this. It is not a joint to teach a beginner.

There are other dovetails, but for another time.

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Kaizen123

Super impressive stuff there @Derek Cohen (Perth Oz). Give me 30yrs and I'll show you mine.


----------



## Kaizen123

I actually quite like the look of the first picture with 3 joints close together and then a gap at each end. Looks masterful.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> I recently posted a picture of a travel box I made for a set of chisels I take to demonstrate at wood shows and joinery workshops. It replaced this box, which was originally made to house 5 chisels, and was now too small for the 7 chisels that need to be stored.
> 
> Original box ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an aside, the narrow tips are harder to make as the sockets are more fragile when clearing the waste from the corners. In terms of overall strength, narrow dovetails (often called "London" dovetails) are no weaker than wider dovetails. I think that they just look more elegant.
> 
> Anyway, the other reason I wanted to make a new chisel box was because I thought that this one, made 10 years ago, was a little too "in your face". I was planning to be at a workshop (this past Saturday), and wanted the new box for then. The new chisel box is actually many times more complex to make. However, only experienced dovetailers will know this.
> 
> This is the new box ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is this box so much more difficult?
> 
> The dovetails in the first box look impressive because they are half blinds and because they are pointy "London" style. But they are still just half blind dovetails and, because the tail is hidden inside the socket, I described these as 1 Dimensional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now take the through dovetail. It is open on two sides. Both sides are open for scrutiny. Therefor I would refer to these as joinery in 2 Dimensions ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new box has mitred through dovetails, which are used to hide the grooves for the bottom and the sliding lid. These mitres add a big jump in complexity - a third dimension. Each of these sides must come together at the same time, otherwise there will be gaps at the side and front. In other words, joinery in 3 Dimensions.
> 
> This is a model of mitred through dovetails ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the new box before glue up ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rob Cosman was asked to demonstrate a mitred through dovetail. He declined, saying that he had never made one. I understand and accept this. It is not a joint to teach a beginner.
> 
> There are other dovetails, but for another time.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek


Love the mitered through dovetails. I use them a lot. Here are some on a set of signal repeater panels I made.


----------



## Devmeister

TRITON said:


> Once upon a time it was secret dovetails for drawers. Especially if it had a front fitted.,


Times have changed. My dad taught me as a kid. He was a gentleman woodworker who struggled. I learned from kluau


Jacob said:


> Brilliant vid from Klausz. I'm sort of getting there but not quite as snappy!
> He does pins first but I reckon most trad workers did sockets first - because you can do two sides clamped together in one op and speed things up. You can see it on old drawers where the little variations on one side match the other side exactly.
> PS he does it sideways but easier turned facing the bench I think. And if you are doing a lot have a high stool - lot of leaning forwards etc gets uncomfortable, back ache etc, sitting down and you can be at it all day, perhaps.
> Another thing is to set the gauge line slightly over so the ends stick through by half a mm or so, then plane them flush after the glue is dry, for a perfect appearance.


Times have changed. My father taught me as a kid and he was a gentleman woodworker who struggled. As a computer engineer I mastered the art from guys like Kingshot, Becksvort and Klausz when he had no grey. When my mother died I returned to work in the woodworking industry doing luxury high end commercial fitment. I became a bad ass in the world of CNC working on jobs costing into the millions of US dollars.

what resonated was Kluasz’ comment on hand work being production work. In drawe work where dovetails were needed, we found router jigs to be a pain. We had a Maureen Johnson CNC dovetailer.

Drawers had to fit the case they were intended to be fit in. Getting the half pins right and getting the traditional look right was a real pain in the ass. The CNC dovetailer cut two pin socket boards that were offset. You didn’t really have a pin board and a tail board. Often you had half pins done wrong and that mass production look clients didn’t want. So we sold the CNC dovetailer.

we then tried using the Lieigh D4 with porter cable 690 routers. It solved the half pin issue for the most part and got us the variable spacing we were looking for.

But the D4 has one pain in the buttocks. The two diagonal joints are equal but not interchangeable with the other two diagonal joints. So you had to set up a mirror set up on the other side of the jig. Not always perfect and your now limited to only 12 inch drawers creating issues in medical and legal fitments where drawers can exceed 12 in in depth.

so we had a come to Jesus meeting and decided to attempt an up to date hand approach. The Homag CNC cost 200,000 US dollars and ran two shifts per day. Clogging up production with dovetail drawer parts was not an option. So we CNC cut parts for a saw jig for the bench crew.

The bench crew got LN dovetail saws, Irwin plastic chisels and we bought one tormek grinder. We had 6 bench stations.

Each job is different even with some similarities so setups on a jig would always require test cuts and setups. Time and money. The number of parts from one setup was not worth the cost of each setup.

So each bench guy would quickly mark out a tailboard and clamp as many as four to six tail boards together. Hand layout made the bottom dado location brain dead simple. With the MDF saw guide, it took 5 min or less to cut tails on as many as six tail boards at a time.

The boards were stagger clamped to the bench and the waste was chopped no more than half thru. Boards flipped and the remainder of the waste cleared.

The less experienced would do tail boards while the more experienced did pin boards and half laps.

we billed 20 min per thru drawer and 40 min for the upgraded half lap drawers. Shop time was not cheap but our clients were happy to pay for our work.

while we did more melamine drawers than traditional drawers we did have the traditional drawer down.

so I have to smile sometimes when I hear others comment on the new methods of drawer construction and why it’s obsolete to do things with 200 year old skill sets. Dovetailing drawers old school is far from obsolete and no modern method has come about to replace it. It is a skill set worth mastering and that hard to master.


----------



## Adam W.

Seeings we're having a show and tell.......Mine are so good, they are invisible, beat that!







They are even more invisible now that I have painted it black....






The lid glows nice in the sunlight too....

My uncle would never show off his dovetails, as he thought they was common. How times change!


----------



## Devmeister

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> I recently posted a picture of a travel box I made for a set of chisels I take to demonstrate at wood shows and joinery workshops. It replaced this box, which was originally made to house 5 chisels, and was now too small for the 7 chisels that need to be stored.
> 
> Original box ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an aside, the narrow tips are harder to make as the sockets are more fragile when clearing the waste from the corners. In terms of overall strength, narrow dovetails (often called "London" dovetails) are no weaker than wider dovetails. I think that they just look more elegant.
> 
> Anyway, the other reason I wanted to make a new chisel box was because I thought that this one, made 10 years ago, was a little too "in your face". I was planning to be at a workshop (this past Saturday), and wanted the new box for then. The new chisel box is actually many times more complex to make. However, only experienced dovetailers will know this.
> 
> This is the new box ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is this box so much more difficult?
> 
> The dovetails in the first box look impressive because they are half blinds and because they are pointy "London" style. But they are still just half blind dovetails and, because the tail is hidden inside the socket, I described these as 1 Dimensional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now take the through dovetail. It is open on two sides. Both sides are open for scrutiny. Therefor I would refer to these as joinery in 2 Dimensions ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new box has mitred through dovetails, which are used to hide the grooves for the bottom and the sliding lid. These mitres add a big jump in complexity - a third dimension. Each of these sides must come together at the same time, otherwise there will be gaps at the side and front. In other words, joinery in 3 Dimensions.
> 
> This is a model of mitred through dovetails ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the new box before glue up ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rob Cosman was asked to demonstrate a mitred through dovetail. He declined, saying that he had never made one. I understand and accept this. It is not a joint to teach a beginner.
> 
> There are other dovetails, but for another time.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



SWEET!!!!!!!!
Lovely work done in real wood with skill and care to solve a practical problem. I absolutely love it!!!!!!


----------



## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> Times have changed. My dad taught me as a kid. He was a gentleman woodworker who struggled. I learned from kluau
> 
> Times have changed. My father taught me as a kid and he was a gentleman woodworker who struggled. As a computer engineer I mastered the art from guys like Kingshot, Becksvort and Klausz when he had no grey. When my mother died I returned to work in the woodworking industry doing luxury high end commercial fitment. I became a bad ass in the world of CNC working on jobs costing into the millions of US dollars.
> 
> what resonated was Kluasz’ comment on hand work being production work. In drawe work where dovetails were needed, we found router jigs to be a pain. We had a Maureen Johnson CNC dovetailer.
> 
> Drawers had to fit the case they were intended to be fit in. Getting the half pins right and getting the traditional look right was a real pain in the ass. The CNC dovetailer cut two pin socket boards that were offset. You didn’t really have a pin board and a tail board. Often you had half pins done wrong and that mass production look clients didn’t want. So we sold the CNC dovetailer.
> 
> we then tried using the Lieigh D4 with porter cable 690 routers. It solved the half pin issue for the most part and got us the variable spacing we were looking for.
> 
> But the D4 has one pain in the buttocks. The two diagonal joints are equal but not interchangeable with the other two diagonal joints. So you had to set up a mirror set up on the other side of the jig. Not always perfect and your now limited to only 12 inch drawers creating issues in medical and legal fitments where drawers can exceed 12 in in depth.
> 
> so we had a come to Jesus meeting and decided to attempt an up to date hand approach. The Homag CNC cost 200,000 US dollars and ran two shifts per day. Clogging up production with dovetail drawer parts was not an option. So we CNC cut parts for a saw jig for the bench crew.
> 
> The bench crew got LN dovetail saws, Irwin plastic chisels and we bought one tormek grinder. We had 6 bench stations.
> 
> Each job is different even with some similarities so setups on a jig would always require test cuts and setups. Time and money. The number of parts from one setup was not worth the cost of each setup.
> 
> So each bench guy would quickly mark out a tailboard and clamp as many as four to six tail boards together. Hand layout made the bottom dado location brain dead simple. With the MDF saw guide, it took 5 min or less to cut tails on as many as six tail boards at a time.
> 
> The boards were stagger clamped to the bench and the waste was chopped no more than half thru. Boards flipped and the remainder of the waste cleared.
> 
> The less experienced would do tail boards while the more experienced did pin boards and half laps.
> 
> we billed 20 min per thru drawer and 40 min for the upgraded half lap drawers. Shop time was not cheap but our clients were happy to pay for our work.
> 
> while we did more melamine drawers than traditional drawers we did have the traditional drawer down.
> 
> so I have to smile sometimes when I hear others comment on the new methods of drawer construction and why it’s obsolete to do things with 200 year old skill sets. Dovetailing drawers old school is far from obsolete and no modern method has come about to replace it. It is a skill set worth mastering and that hard to master.


Interesting stuff thanks for that. 
It's the "production" stuff which interests me - "ordinary" furniture made in batches, not one offs.
I'm hoping to do the 5 or 6 drawers in a chest in a week or less - I'll have to up the ante and aim at your 40 minutes each!


----------



## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> Interesting stuff thanks for that.
> It's the "production" stuff which interests me - "ordinary" furniture made in batches, not one offs.
> I'm hoping to do the 5 or 6 drawers in a chest in a week or less - I'll have to up the ante and aim at your 40 minutes each!



what I found difficult in the early days was keeping a mental picture of the anatomy of a tail joint straight. What is a tail board? what is a pin board? What is a socket? Etc! You need to burn these images into your mind forwards and backwards.

If you have to think your not there yet. A typical furniture drawer will accept three to four tails. Forget about precise division.

you will have a feel for the half pin. Choose a number that feels good and looks good. Using a square or your fingers mark a straight line down from the half pins.

then place stile at an angle so that your divisions land on say three even numbers. Adjust the angle on the rule so that the divisions land on full tick marks. Mark these.

Now, Kingshot always said…the chisel gets the benefit of doubt. The tail board holds the negative pin. It must be chopped out. So choose a reasonable chisel width.

place the chisel in the middle of your mark lines. You now establish the width of your negative pin.

when you first mark out, you have a gage line defining the length of you tail. It is based on the thickness of your pin board. Add a tad onto this if you wish to flush the tails later.

a line drawn from this gage line from your chisel mark at an angle of your tail determines your tail.

if you mark out the width of you negative pin neck opening and draw the line, you get your tail but the angle can vary, not always 6 or 7 or 8 degrees etc.

likewise you can mark out the neck opening to be pin narrow and use a dovetail marker to mark backwards to you tail board gage line. This too establishes the size of your tail but may require multiple chisels on the chop out.

if your thinking about fixed and fast rules, there are none. How fluid you get depends on the job, your comfort level for the task and lazy you wish to be.


----------



## Devmeister

Just4Fun said:


> In theory I see no reason why they should be any easier or harder to cut than wider ones but in practise I find them harder. I don't understand why and it could be just me.
> 
> I would expect - but don't know for sure - that a strength test would show the really skinny ones to be weaker. I don't think that is important though. In a typical drawer or box application ultimate strength is not needed and any tight joint will be strong enough, particularly with modern glues. A really skinny pin often looks more elegant to my eyes and this seems to be the fashion in recent years, but it is really up to you. Make what you like.
> 
> Edit: Jacob beat me to it, more succinctly to boot.


 Your correct to a point. The strength of a dovetail joint is firstly based on the surface area of the long grain contact between the tail and pin sides.

Then you need to consider where and how your long grain fibers are anchored.

in the tail, you have a rectangle holding your primary long grain fibers. If you increase the tail angle, you pick up short grain unanchored fibers that can shear off; hence the adherence to 6 7 or 8 degrees with 7 degrees being the accepted compromise between soft and hard woods.

in the pin, your anchor point is not a rectangle but a lopped off triangle housing the main long grain fibers. The bulk of which are in the bottom wider section. As you get into the narrow neck, there are fewer and fewer fibers and if you push this area into a triangle you can imagine that the loss of long grain fibers is very small.

so the bulk of the heavy lifting is done by the fibers nearest the widest area of this feature. So pushing the neck opening into a pin does not have as much of an effect as you think.

in the 18 century, exposed end grain was considered obscene. That is why you see joints like the secret dovetail. Today, exposed hand cut dovetails are a design feature. It’s an expression of high quality in a world dominated by the disposable furniture of IKEA, etc.


----------



## Devmeister

Devmeister said:


> Your correct to a point. The strength of a dovetail joint is firstly based on the surface area of the long grain contact between the tail and pin sides.
> 
> Then you need to consider where and how your long grain fibers are anchored.
> 
> in the tail, you have a rectangle holding your primary long grain fibers. If you increase the tail angle, you pick up short grain unanchored fibers that can shear off; hence the adherence to 6 7 or 8 degrees with 7 degrees being the accepted compromise between soft and hard woods.
> 
> in the pin, your anchor point is not a rectangle but a lopped off triangle housing the main long grain fibers. The bulk of which are in the bottom wider section. As you get into the narrow neck, there are fewer and fewer fibers and if you push this area into a triangle you can imagine that the loss of long grain fibers is very small.
> 
> so the bulk of the heavy lifting is done by the fibers nearest the widest area of this feature. So pushing the neck opening into a pin does not have as much of an effect as you think.
> 
> in the 18 century, exposed end grain was considered obscene. That is why you see joints like the secret dovetail. Today, exposed hand cut dovetails are a design feature. It’s an expression of high quality in a world dominated by the disposable furniture of IKEA, etc.



The difference between a box joint and dovetail joint is that one is a locking joint. The box joint is insanely strong because of its huge long grain glue area. But it is entirely based on the glue joint. If the glue fails the joint fails.

the dovetail joint locks in one direction usually against the axis of load. So we see 200 year old drawers still holding together even though the hide glue failed decades ago.

But box joints are very hard to do with hand tools and extremely easy to do with machines.

min my shop, partly based on a 1940s to 1950d pattern shop, I use box joints to be period correct. In the wood part of the shop, I will use dovetails where I can cuz they are easy and traditional.

items like fake oak timber’s which are for looks, they are either mitre folded or doweled cuz they are not visable. I admit to making some decorative timber’s from veneer clad MDF to reduce cost.


----------



## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> Just a particular style and very common. No easier/harder, except you only have to have one straight kerf to start it off, instead of two.
> For most purposes strength isn't much of an an issue with DTs unless for heavy loads such as water tanks, ammo boxes and similar, when equal sized pins and tails are presumed stronger.



Agreed. It’s a style thing. I have looked in old literature to find history behind this but have not found anything yet. The problem with time is that time often takes unique skills to the grave. The traditional metal machine world is the worst. We have lost so many older machinists and subsequently their skills. Some of my machines are English wadkins from the 1940s. Restoration is often a struggle as you wonder how The Green Lane Works did things.
There were three major schools of thought. English-Germanic-French. While there was overlap there were also differences. You can see some differences in the workbenches. Rubo versus scandavian versus English. Same with toolboxes. When the American school of thought came front and center, we saw a huge change. The machine mind set. Woodworking moved more towards traditional pattern making. Benches changed, toolboxes went toward the machinist box style and dovetails became more utilitarian if not replaced by the box joint.

so today, we seek design features to capture an allure that tracks one of these historical features. So not only do we need the skills but an ability to apply those skills to obtain the subtle features were after.

In some heavy timber dovetails, you often have one or two heavy tails. In an attempt to increase strength, minor dovetails were added to the larger dovetails. So now you have the hounds tooth dovetail. You see this often on high quality wooden workbenh elements.


----------



## Adam W.

Devmeister said:


> Agreed. It’s a style thing. I have looked in old literature to find history behind this but have not found anything yet. The problem with time is that time often takes unique skills to the grave. The traditional metal machine world is the worst. We have lost so many older machinists and subsequently their skills. Some of my machines are English wadkins from the 1940s. Restoration is often a struggle as you wonder how The Green Lane Works did things.
> There were three major schools of thought. English-Germanic-French. While there was overlap there were also differences. You can see some differences in the workbenches. Rubo versus scandavian versus English. Same with toolboxes. When the American school of thought came front and center, we saw a huge change. The machine mind set. Woodworking moved more towards traditional pattern making. Benches changed, toolboxes went toward the machinist box style and dovetails became more utilitarian if not replaced by the box joint.
> 
> so today, we seek design features to capture an allure that tracks one of these historical features. So not only do we need the skills but an ability to apply those skills to obtain the subtle features were after.
> 
> In some heavy timber dovetails, you often have one or two heavy tails. In an attempt to increase strength, minor dovetails were added to the larger dovetails. So now you have the hounds tooth dovetail. You see this often on high quality wooden workbenh elements.



Dovetails were originally utilitarian and have now become a design feature. You wouldn't see dovetails on drawer fronts on quality work in the 17th. century. This also applies to secondary surfaces and we've moved to a stage where every component is overworked.

Edit:

The evidence is in the furniture, and not in books by people like Moxon or Nicholson.


----------



## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> It's done on ordinary stuff too.I use a craft knife with a thin chisel end blade and just tap it with a pin hammer, no knife stroke. Turn it with face side against side of pin hole, bevel on the other. Have to have cut rather than pencil lines with pine, as the surface isn't crisp enough for a fine line


In looking at your photos I see what your doing. That is not a bad idea at all! That line is critical to getting a good fit. And the craft knife is relatively cheap. Cross man has some interesting ideas but he also sells tools. He had added modern touches like composite handles to his saws. But his tools are no cheap date and they don’t improve your work enough to justify some of the expense. For those who do this for fun, budget is a consideration to be considered.


----------



## Devmeister

Adam W. said:


> Dovetails were originally utilitarian and have now become a design feature. You wouldn't see dovetails on drawer fronts on quality work in the 17th. century. This also applies to secondary surfaces and we've moved to a stage where every component is overworked.


Agreed. As I mentioned, end grain was considered “obscene”. So today it’s often overworked or underworked. My last employer just closed this last Friday so I am looking for a new job. We did commercial fitment in PLAM. PLAM is the Formica plastic glued to particle board. Hospitals, jails, hotels etc. our joinery was CNC doweling. The dowels were prefinished with a water activated glue. The CNC machine drilled the hole, injected water into the hole and then rammed the dowels home. The cabinets were like putting lego blocks together. Nothing about it had any traditional elegance. In the time I was there, I didn’t work a single piece of solid timber yet alone a dovetail.


----------



## Devmeister

Kaizen123 said:


> Yes @Fred48 I do have a good marking knife  and my pencil is not nearly as accurate BUT I have just been trying to get the gist. The next one I do is going to be marked properly on proper hardwood and be proper good and I'll be a proper respectable novice woodworker.... I hope. I have been given a challenge to learn these and I'm having an absolute blast doing so. You've all been so helpful.
> 
> @Fred48 would you use masking tape and cut it like has been described by a couple of folks? Seems like a really clear way of marking up for a newbie like me.



I often used white chalk board chalk to mark out when it’s hard to see. Masking tape works also and I believe this idea came from the guy who works for fine woodworking mag. His name is hard to remember though. He wrote a book on his work and it’s a wonderful book for those who are getting started. Lots of awsome pictures. His YouTube vids are also great. I think he is the art director for fine woodworking magazine.


----------



## Kaizen123

@Devmeister you've actually raised a good question. Do I use the biggest possible chisel (out of the provided dimensions of the dovetail) to be able to shave as much surface as possible in one clean push??? I have been using an 8mm and a 10mm chisel but I do have a 16mm too so perhaps that would be better for getting one flat cut? Is that what you guys do?


----------



## Devmeister

Adam W. said:


> Dovetails were originally utilitarian and have now become a design feature. You wouldn't see dovetails on drawer fronts on quality work in the 17th. century. This also applies to secondary surfaces and we've moved to a stage where every component is overworked.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> The evidence is in the furniture, and not in books by people like Moxon or Nicholson.


Absolutely! Moxon and Nicholson had some awsome ideas. They to had an influence on me and how how I view things moving forward.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Devmeister said:


> I often used white chalk board chalk to mark out when it’s hard to see. Masking tape works also and I believe this idea came from the guy who works for fine woodworking mag. His name is hard to remember though. He wrote a book on his work and it’s a wonderful book for those who are getting started. Lots of awsome pictures. His YouTube vids are also great. I think he is the art director for fine woodworking magazine.


I would guess there are many woodworking gurus who would claim to have invented the blue tape idea ... I think the guy you are referencing is Michael Pekovich.


----------



## Kaizen123

Jacob said:


> It's an old fashion - you see it in a lot of old furniture. Sometimes done for trim appearance but also I guess because it's slightly easier to cut a pair of sides together with just one kerf to start off each pin hole.
> There's some interesting sites out there, showing the variety, e.g. Drawer Front Dovetail Evolution
> I hit on this one this morning:
> Maramureș, northern Romania. Dovetail joints on the corner of a traditional old timber house in the village of Botiza
> 
> View attachment 127068



These look different to the ones I've been learning. I've been cutting 90° on the tail end grain.... I mean I mark the dovetail down the long grain on one piece and grab a square to mark out the top. This is on one of the pieces and the other is don't in the opposite fashion. Should I not be doing that? These look like they are locking from both the pin and the tail. Might be a dumb question but if I don't ask I don't learn. Have I been doing it all wrong haha?


----------



## Devmeister

Kaizen123 said:


> @Devmeister you've actually raised a good question. Do I use the biggest possible chisel (out of the provided dimensions of the dovetail) to be able to shave as much surface as possible in one clean push??? I have been using an 8mm and a 10mm chisel but I do have a 16mm too so perhaps that would be better for getting one flat cut? Is that what you guys do?


Yes if possible. Otherwise you may have walk the chisel. It’s nice but not always possible to start your chop with a single light tap. Then go and excavate a thin lateral cut to remove a morsel. This keeps the chisel from backing into the gage line.


----------



## Devmeister

Blackswanwood said:


> I would guess there are many woodworking gurus who would claim to have invented the blue tape idea ... I think the guy you are referencing is Michael Pekovich.


Yup that is the guy.


----------



## Kaizen123

I'm giving it a go on Meranti today. Been told it's not the easiest stuff to do it on but it's all I've got for now. It is definitely getting a bit simpler. The method anyway.


----------



## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> These look different to the ones I've been learning. I've been cutting 90° on the tail end grain.... I mean I mark the dovetail down the long grain on one piece and grab a square to mark out the top. This is on one of the pieces and the other is don't in the opposite fashion. Should I not be doing that? These look like they are locking from both the pin and the tail. Might be a dumb question but if I don't ask I don't learn. Have I been doing it all wrong haha?


Well spotted. It's a log building. Built by cutting identical 2 way dovetails on each end of each timber and then building them up one on top of the other like interlocking bricks. You could do this for a box I suppose, with alternating laths of different timbers.


----------



## Devmeister

Kaizen123 said:


> I'm giving it a go on Meranti today. Been told it's not the easiest stuff to do it on but it's all I've got for now. It is definitely getting a bit simpler. The method anyway.
> [/QUOTE





Kaizen123 said:


> I'm giving it a go on Meranti today. Been told it's not the easiest stuff to do it on but it's all I've got for now. It is definitely getting a bit simpler. The method anyway.
> 
> [/https://youtu.be/7qDWkbyZEZQ]


----------



## Devmeister

not sure how to add video references but go to YouTube and search for “just another dovetailing video”.

in time you sift thru all the noise and settle on a basic straight forward approach that works.


----------



## Jameshow

Blackswanwood said:


> I would guess there are many woodworking gurus who would claim to have invented the blue tape idea ... I think the guy you are referencing is Michael Pekovich.


I thought it was Derek down under!!!


----------



## Jameshow

Nothing to add but the obvious - tails go in drawer sides to resist the pull of the drawer front / back.


----------



## Devmeister

Jameshow said:


> I thought it was Derek down under!!!


Could be. The cross pollination in this world is great. I live in the states. My Wadkin buddies are in England, Australia, South Africa, Canada. Isn’t it crazy how something like a dovetail can bring us all together? We should send some politicians to wood working school. LOL


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Blackswanwood said:


> I would guess there are many woodworking gurus who would claim to have invented the blue tape idea ... I think the guy you are referencing is Michael Pekovich.



No he did not invent the Blue Tape method! This reference always gets my goat! I wrote about this method, and posted articles on my website and on several fori at least 3 years before the FWW article. I spoke with Pekovich about this, and he was a condescending *******. This was not the first time one of the methods on my website was published on FWW without acknowledgements. Now I know that it is unlikely that someone "invents" a method, but I know I was the first to write about this.

2011: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfblindDovetailsinJarrah.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Adam W.

I like the handy square boxmaking jig.


----------



## Jacob

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> ............ Now I know that it is unlikely that someone "invents" a method, but I know I was the first to write about this.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek


Interesting stuff!
I hereby claim also to have invented Derek's "kerf chisel"!!
It started out as a filed down Stubai craft knife.
I improved on it with this little cheapo craft knife as the blade is even thinner. And it cost nothing I found it in a box of somebody's rubbish after a tidy up.
The hammer was invented by Mr Ed of this parish.


----------



## Kaizen123

Right well Im very grateful for all advice and methods. Doing a little Meranti box just now and attempting dovetails all around it. It is definitely a tonne easier to get an accurate flat surface with the chisel so I'm exciting to see how it fairs. Im definitely getting alot closer to the line anyway.

Quick question. I have these diamond plates for the chisels but I stupidly didn't wipe down after last use (very new to all of this stuff) and it's got a bit rusty. Are they screwed now or can I fix this without losing the water ability because I read if you put a chemical or oil on a diamond stone then you can't use water again.


----------



## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> Right well Im very grateful for all advice and methods. Doing a little Meranti box just now and attempted dovetails all around it. It is definitely a tonne easier to get an accurate flat surface with the chisel so I'm exciting to see how it fairs. Im definitely getting alot closer to the line anyway.
> 
> Quick question. I have these diamond plates for the chisels but I stupidly didn't wipe down after last use (very new to all of this stuff) and it's got a bit rusty. Are they screwed now or can I fix this without losing the water ability because I read if you put a chemical or oil on a diamond stone then you can't use water again.


Use oil and/or white spirit. Water causes rust - so you really don't want to use it again!


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Don't be a d1ckhead, Jacob.

I gave credit for that to Tage Frid.

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> not sure how to add video references but go to YouTube and search for “just another dovetailing video”.
> 
> in time you sift thru all the noise and settle on a basic straight forward approach that works.


Very neat:



I also claim to have invented sitting down on the job, which Becksvoort also does! If you do a big batch you have to or you get back ache with all the leaning over.


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> Very neat:
> 
> 
> 
> I also claim to have invented sitting down on the job, which Becksvoort also does! If you do a big batch you have to or you get back ache with all the leaning over.




I invented that after you stopped doing it.


----------



## Kaizen123

Right! So noticeably tighter and less 'gappy'... Happy with it but it has taken me almost 3hrs and I've got 3 more lots to do to create the well sought after an highly rectangular 'box' look. So I might have a break. Janey Mack I bet it takes you lot about 15 minutes.

It took a lot of editing but I think I've learned not to be too afraid of the line and keep adjusting. A lot of my post cut forming was taking 0.0000001 nanometer off of each tail for fear of going over the edge which I did anyway.

Going for a coffee now don't try to stop me.

Do people use filler or dust+glue to cover up gaps or is that a sin?


----------



## Kaizen123

Also I wanted to take a bit more off the bottom of one of them for a tighter fit but genuinely I cannot get them to unlock now. Not sure if that's a good sign or not.

(Edit) got it off now.
Ive come across yet another thing that is confuddling me now. This is my first attempt at doing the joints all around an actual thing and looking at where the next tails on the side piece of the box are going to be placed... Is that something that is done? I'm not so good at figuring out the end product but I'm now wondering if this is even possible? Am I going to have to mirror the tails on the adjacent side or is this potentially going to not work if some tails won't let the next tail go in? Am I making sense?

Will this joint interfere with the next joint is my question? Or like a box joint will they all just coexist peacefully?


----------



## Adam W.

You should only have four boards for your box sides. Two boards carry pins only and the other two boards carry tails only. A mirror is a good way of thinking about it, unless you work in a random fashion and don't worry about it, just match the corners up and number them and mark UP/arrow on each board and keep it upwards.

If you suddenly find that you have five boards for your box sides, you've gone wrong.


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## Kaizen123

Adam W. said:


> You should only have four boards for your box sides. Two boards carry pins only and the other two boards carry tails only. A mirror is a good way of thinking about it, unless you work in a random fashion and don't worry about it, just match the corners up and number them and mark UP/arrow on each board and keep it upwards.
> 
> If you suddenly find that you have five boards for your box sides, you've gone wrong.


Hahahaha. That made me chuckle. Yes so I've done one pin side and one tail side for the sides and hopefully if I don't mess it up then the face and back will be 1 tailboard and 1 pin.... I think.


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## Kaizen123

Wait... Cancel that.

Wasn't hammering just pushing. Maybe this wood isn't as forgiving as I though :'( oh well. Back to the start!

Actually sod it I'm gonna get the glue out and see if it will survive.


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## Adam W.

Kaizen123 said:


> Hahahaha. That made me chuckle. Yes so I've done one pin side and one tail side for the sides and hopefully if I don't mess it up then the face and back will be 1 tailboard and 1 pin.... I think.


Tails only on two boards and pins only on two boards. Don't mix tails on one end and pins on the other end of a board, as you won't get the box together.


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## paulrbarnard

Devmeister said:


> Could be. The cross pollination in this world is great. I live in the states. My Wadkin buddies are in England, Australia, South Africa, Canada. Isn’t it crazy how something like a dovetail can bring us all together? We should send some politicians to wood working school. LOL


As long as the don’t need to sharpen their chisels it would be great.


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## Devmeister

LOL
I have to admit I have not seen your website but I have now marked it. I love your drawer work and the blue tape does make things look electric.

Kingshot had difficulties seeing those same half lap lines in mahogany and he used white chalk. It never occurred to me personally to use blue tape as I had just used white chalk.

crossman posted his chisel idea and made a chisel available. But ii is interesting to note that taige used a modified chisel for this back in the early days of the dovetail rensonce. I am not surprised.

My biggest complaint with FWW is that they seem to be driven by commercial influence. When I talked to them years back about not covering shapers and spending to much time on router tables, I was told out right that guys using shapers don’t buy router bits and router bit dealers buy advertisement space.

it made me leery about what they wrote. Today every article has a slick photo of the saw stop. Some folks love them and I hate them. My opinion. I love my Oliver 270 and my 1956 wadkin PK!!!! They work for me.

my concern is that the newbies are being adversely influenced by the subconscious or subliminal influence of commercial interests.

my work would never get published because I refuse to cow down to this. I don’t own vetitas planes and don’t like their modern spin. I do like my LN planes and I like my oldies such as Norris.

My 20 in planet is a 1905 Faye with a square head. I am converting it to run off steam.

None of this helps in selling the new shiny bobbles. LN told me out right that they do not market thru these channels. So now I know why you see few LN photos in these mags.


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## Devmeister

Adam W. said:


> Tails only on two boards and pins only on two boards. Don't mix tails on one end and pins on the other end of a board, as you won't get the box together.



LOL
That’s not funny! As I partly mentioned, you need to keep track of the ends when using a router on the Leigh D4 jig. That is exactly what I did by accident while in a hurry. Oops….. RECUT!!!!


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## Fred48

Just4Fun said:


> Fred, that is certainly a safe approach and I probably did it that way when I started. The disadvantage is that it is making work and not really developing skill. It is quicker (not actually important to me) and I find it enormously satisfying to cut straight to the line so the joint goes together with no additional "fettling" of the sides with a chisel. This of course requires accurate saw cuts that nobody can expect to do without practise, but you will never be able to do that if you never try.
> 
> Try marking out a series of parallel cuts (angled like on a dovetail) just a few mm apart on the end of a piece of scrap, then saw against the line. I bet when you have done 20 you will be pretty close & consistent. Then try an actual dovetail cut direct from the saw. You may surprise yourself.



Just4Fun.

Thanks for that. I’m loving this thread.

What a like about this thread is Kaizen123 has had input from a number of people who have been very helpful.

Donkeys years ago I was taught by a brilliant woodwork teacher, Don Hall who trained at Loughborough College of Education and with his guidance I gained top grades in O & A Level Woodwork. We marked the tails with a knife and dovetail template and shoulder lines with a marking knife and square.

We were taught to cut at close to the line as possible, but not to remove the knife line. The same with the pins. The minute bit of wood that was left would be trimmed back to the knife line with a chisel.

That’s the method I have used from the age of 11 and it gives me really good results.

Here is an example of the successful method


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## Adam W.

Devmeister said:


> LOL
> That’s not funny! As I partly mentioned, you need to keep track of the ends when using a router on the Leigh D4 jig. That is exactly what I did by accident while in a hurry. Oops….. RECUT!!!!


Have you done the pins round one way and the opposing pins round the other way trick yet ?


----------



## jcassidy

This is a great thread with some serious education going on. I learnt to cut dovetails to the line, chopping out the waste. Being a vocational school with a line into the C&G apprentiship system, it was more of an industrial education than fine woodworking, and funnily enough I was taught to hide dovetails, so lots of hidden dovetails were cut out. I recall having to make oak strips to veneer over exposed dovetails on a small chest of drawers.


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## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> Hahahaha. That made me chuckle. Yes so I've done one pin side and one tail side for the sides and hopefully if I don't mess it up then the face and back will be 1 tailboard and 1 pin.... I think.


Really have to do 100% markup. If you think of a drawer each side can be orientated in 4 ways and swapped around too many times to mention. 4x4x4x4 = 256 and that's before you move them around!
Face marks all facing out, edge marks all facing bottom, each drawer numbered, each piece with drawer number added, plus front, back, left, right, if not already obvious.
Also handy if you have one finished on hand, for reference


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## Jameshow

Kaizen123 said:


> Right! So noticeably tighter and less 'gappy'... Happy with it but it has taken me almost 3hrs and I've got 3 more lots to do to create the well sought after an highly rectangular 'box' look. So I might have a break. Janey Mack I bet it takes you lot about 15 minutes.
> 
> It took a lot of editing but I think I've learned not to be too afraid of the line and keep adjusting. A lot of my post cut forming was taking 0.0000001 nanometer off of each tail for fear of going over the edge which I did anyway.
> 
> Going for a coffee now don't try to stop me.
> 
> Do people use filler or dust+glue to cover up gaps or is that a sin?


I use sanding dust from the belt sander or table saw and PVA hides a multitude of sins!!!


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## D_W

jcassidy said:


> This is a great thread with some serious education going on. I learnt to cut dovetails to the line, chopping out the waste. Being a vocational school with a line into the C&G apprentiship system, it was more of an industrial education than fine woodworking, and funnily enough I was taught to hide dovetails, so lots of hidden dovetails were cut out. I recall having to make oak strips to veneer over exposed dovetails on a small chest of drawers.



One of the comments on the williamsburg video showing instrumentmakers building the cabinet for a harpsichord pretty much says the same thing. 

"one rarely wants to see such joints". 

But furniture that was well made was a thing for the wealthy back then and I'm sure the wealthy were taught taste, etc, at least more on average. 



I realize that all bets were off as soon as synthetic materials and power mortisers appeared with "craftsman style" furniture. 

Where I grew up, you could find blanket chests that were hand dovetailed on the corners with the corners left exposed, and some designs of chests that have tails showing on the top of the piece (but I think a moulding wrapped around the sides). 

The chests were not made with sloppy dovetails, though - when they were left t show, they were done neatly. Especially considering many have had two centuries to move around and they still look relatively neat.


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## D_W

We overestimate ourselves a little bit if we think hobbyist furniture is going to be heavily remembered as a style of the 2010s or 2020s or whatever - it might be known that this is the era that people started building a lot of hobby pieces and they didn't really match much on the commercial market.


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## Devmeister

Adam W. said:


> Have you done the pins round one way and the opposing pins round the other way trick yet ?


No. I jumped on the jig without reading the Manuel. When I did read it, I followed their marking convention.

On a cherry toolbox I made for myself, the plan was to build the box and then saw the lid assembly free using the table saw. The problem is that one of the tails had to be wider by one saw blade kerf so all the tails would be equal when the lis closed.

This is how I was introduced to the concept of symmetrical dovetails on the D4. You need to set up a mirror image of the set up on the right side of the jig otherwise your wider upper tail locates toward the bottom on the opposing corner.

While not a difficult concept, I didn’t particularly like the idea.

The jig also makes the hounds tooth harder than by hand.

Lastly the jig fingers are set up to do 7 degree thrust tails. Fair enough. But that means using a 14 degree router bit with a 3/4 in depth of cut.

when you do half blinds, you need to change the angle of cutter used depending on the thickness of your sides. So the back thrus will be 7 degree and the front half laps will be whatever angle the maunuel tells you for thickness. The 7 (14 degree) degree cutter will cut 7 degree if your sides are 3/4 in thick. Most drawers don’t use 3/4 in thick sides.

I didn’t know this. So I cut some kitchen drawers front and back with the thru cutter. These were half in drawers with a one piece overlay front.

OPPS! So I marked out the half lap fronts and did them by hand with the tails done on the D4.

I talk about control. Hand tools give you control. As cool as the D4 is, you have to learn the restrictive rules of what you can do and what you can’t do.


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## Devmeister

D_W said:


> We overestimate ourselves a little bit if we think hobbyist furniture is going to be heavily remembered as a style of the 2010s or 2020s or whatever - it might be known that this is the era that people started building a lot of hobby pieces and they didn't really match much on the commercial market.



The commercial market is horrible. particle board and MDF. Veneers so thin you learn the term Burn Thru quickly. A burn thru is a sander mistake in finish. Drawer fronts are often sub fronts that fail frequently. Doors are barely glued together because of the use of stub tennons to fill the panel gaps. If you pop a door on a corner diagonally, the whole door comes apart. That is how we were able to salvage interior panels when we had to recut a frame. Melamine is the material of choice. A horrid nasty material! Do I need to go on?

while hobbyists may not have the skills of chippendale or townsend, they as a group have made some nice work that will survive and outlast the commercial stuff. The commercial guys may have fancier designs but the foundation for heirloom status isn’t there.


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## D_W

It'll definitely outlast the commercial stuff - much commercially made bits are probably expected to have a lifespan of 10-20 years. 

Long ago, someone told me (I was working in a cabinet factory) - that kitchens should be replaced every 25 years (this was odd as my parents had a nice house - nicer than I'll ever see, and the house had built in cabinets from 1924 - they are still there. They did get the floor tiled and stripped the paint off of the built ins and stain them when we moved in (in 1980) and the countertops have been "re-did" as sooner or later, you beat them up. The non-critical countertops (opposite side of the wet and hot areas) are still original solids.

At any rate, Maybe 15 years ago, I heard a figure of "replacing the kitchen every 20 years", and last year I heard someone say "10-15". 

People change furniture and kitchens due to color - often. I get that the narrative is from people who redo kitchens, but my grandfather would turn in his grave if he knew people were rolling kitchens into loans every couple of decades instead of saving, and the fact that people retire with mortgages would be something he couldn't really grasp. 

Back to the furniture - since I started woodworking in 2005 (and it was a slow start), I've read often how the finest furniture being made now (more drastic than your statement) is made by amateurs. I think amateurs are in the middle, maybe along with the best of the factory furniture (that costs what custom furniture would, anyway...but back to the thing about colors - factory furniture will always do well on the finish and color because that's what people understand. At the mid level cabinet factory where I worked, face frames at the time and door bits were solid wood - the average poster here would struggle to match the quality of the finish work that was done there. Why? Because that's generally the only thing cabinets came back for - less than perfect color match - and that also means if someone has a cabinet or four that they got three years ago and they're replacing more, they will be comparing. Any shortcomings of workmanship could be filled in with putty or shellac stick -....wait for it..

...as long as the _color of the repair_ didn't stand out. 

At the top end where there are commissions from very wealthy people for high quality reproductions, the average person can't do the specialized trade work even if they're a 20 year woodworkers, so while basic stuff that's made by amateurs is nice, there may be curator comments in the future about the dominance of square work without too many curves or curved mouldings.


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## Devmeister

WARNING!
When a true woodworker enters the commercial field, one of three things will happen.
1). He becomes so dismayed and beat down that it becomes a matter of looking forward to a meager paycheck.
2). He becomes so dismayed that he leaves woodworking forever for other opportunities.
3). He gives the commercial world the middle finger and strikes out on his own doing commission work. That is how C Becksvort went. He was planning his exit the second day in the millwork industry.

How do you become a millionaire at woodworking? Simple! Start out as a billionaire!


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## Devmeister

D_W said:


> It'll definitely outlast the commercial stuff - much commercially made bits are probably expected to have a lifespan of 10-20 years.
> 
> Long ago, someone told me (I was working in a cabinet factory) - that kitchens should be replaced every 25 years (this was odd as my parents had a nice house - nicer than I'll ever see, and the house had built in cabinets from 1924 - they are still there. They did get the floor tiled and stripped the paint off of the built ins and stain them when we moved in (in 1980) and the countertops have been "re-did" as sooner or later, you beat them up. The non-critical countertops (opposite side of the wet and hot areas) are still original solids.
> 
> At any rate, Maybe 15 years ago, I heard a figure of "replacing the kitchen every 20 years", and last year I heard someone say "10-15".
> 
> People change furniture and kitchens due to color - often. I get that the narrative is from people who redo kitchens, but my grandfather would turn in his grave if he knew people were rolling kitchens into loans every couple of decades instead of saving, and the fact that people retire with mortgages would be something he couldn't really grasp.
> 
> Back to the furniture - since I started woodworking in 2005 (and it was a slow start), I've read often how the finest furniture being made now (more drastic than your statement) is made by amateurs. I think amateurs are in the middle, maybe along with the best of the factory furniture (that costs what custom furniture would, anyway...but back to the thing about colors - factory furniture will always do well on the finish and color because that's what people understand. At the mid level cabinet factory where I worked, face frames at the time and door bits were solid wood - the average poster here would struggle to match the quality of the finish work that was done there. Why? Because that's generally the only thing cabinets came back for - less than perfect color match - and that also means if someone has a cabinet or four that they got three years ago and they're replacing more, they will be comparing. Any shortcomings of workmanship could be filled in with putty or shellac stick -....wait for it..
> 
> ...as long as the _color of the repair_ didn't stand out.
> 
> At the top end where there are commissions from very wealthy people for high quality reproductions, the average person can't do the specialized trade work even if they're a 20 year woodworkers, so while basic stuff that's made by amateurs is nice, there may be curator comments in the future about the dominance of square work without too many curves or curved mouldings.


 I agree with your grand dad!!!!!
In the states, kitchen gut outs are averaging six to ten years.

Finish is an issue. We had quite a finish department and toning was a skill. The big boys use conversion varnish. Don’t even consider stripping. Most of my work saw lacquer. My ex girlfriend bought a bed from Vietnam thru Mayfair. The whole bed was made from some form of plastic wood dust putty injected into molds. Heavier than a dead hippie and just horrid. One issue in the mainstream is that folks today have not learned what quality is. I had to explain to the ex girlfriend what a dovetail was. These people will drop 80,000 on a sports car but buy the cheapest furniture from Mayfair made in Vietnam. Go Figure!


----------



## Jacob

Forgot to add - Becksvoort sizing the pinholes to match a chisel is a good one too, though it might clash with freehand sawing - I quite like the fast but casual look.


----------



## Devmeister

D_W said:


> It'll definitely outlast the commercial stuff - much commercially made bits are probably expected to have a lifespan of 10-20 years.
> 
> Long ago, someone told me (I was working in a cabinet factory) - that kitchens should be replaced every 25 years (this was odd as my parents had a nice house - nicer than I'll ever see, and the house had built in cabinets from 1924 - they are still there. They did get the floor tiled and stripped the paint off of the built ins and stain them when we moved in (in 1980) and the countertops have been "re-did" as sooner or later, you beat them up. The non-critical countertops (opposite side of the wet and hot areas) are still original solids.
> 
> At any rate, Maybe 15 years ago, I heard a figure of "replacing the kitchen every 20 years", and last year I heard someone say "10-15".
> 
> People change furniture and kitchens due to color - often. I get that the narrative is from people who redo kitchens, but my grandfather would turn in his grave if he knew people were rolling kitchens into loans every couple of decades instead of saving, and the fact that people retire with mortgages would be something he couldn't really grasp.
> 
> Back to the furniture - since I started woodworking in 2005 (and it was a slow start), I've read often how the finest furniture being made now (more drastic than your statement) is made by amateurs. I think amateurs are in the middle, maybe along with the best of the factory furniture (that costs what custom furniture would, anyway...but back to the thing about colors - factory furniture will always do well on the finish and color because that's what people understand. At the mid level cabinet factory where I worked, face frames at the time and door bits were solid wood - the average poster here would struggle to match the quality of the finish work that was done there. Why? Because that's generally the only thing cabinets came back for - less than perfect color match - and that also means if someone has a cabinet or four that they got three years ago and they're replacing more, they will be comparing. Any shortcomings of workmanship could be filled in with putty or shellac stick -....wait for it..
> 
> ...as long as the _color of the repair_ didn't stand out.
> 
> At the top end where there are commissions from very wealthy people for high quality reproductions, the average person can't do the specialized trade work even if they're a 20 year woodworkers, so while basic stuff that's made by amateurs is nice, there may be curator comments in the future about the dominance of square work without too many curves or curved mouldings.



on Curves
While most amateurs focus on square work, you also have to consider the utilitarian purpose of what they made. When I needed a file caninet, of course it’s got square lines. Ever see a round filing cabinet?

stickly was influenced by scandavian lines and shaker lines. His initial work was very square. It was not until he hired Ellis before we saw more curves.

if you look at the work by Krenov, you see a unique style but one that is stil square even if it has the occasional coopered door.

the work done by chippendale et alhad square chest of drawers albeit some curves in the base skirts.

Details change the looks. The cock beading, the base molding, the crown molding. The same box can morph into a variety of styles.


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## paulrbarnard

Adam W. said:


> Have you done the pins round one way and the opposing pins round the other way trick yet ?


Been there


----------



## D_W

Devmeister said:


> on Curves
> While most amateurs focus on square work, you also have to consider the utilitarian purpose of what they made. When I needed a file caninet, of course it’s got square lines. Ever see a round filing cabinet?
> 
> stickly was influenced by scandavian lines and shaker lines. His initial work was very square. It was not until he hired Ellis before we saw more curves.
> 
> if you look at the work by Krenov, you see a unique style but one that is stil square even if it has the occasional coopered door.
> 
> the work done by chippendale et alhad square chest of drawers albeit some curves in the base skirts.
> 
> Details change the looks. The cock beading, the base molding, the crown molding. The same box can morph into a variety of styles.



There's probably two realities here. There are folks into that (much of suburbia, maybe, but not usually older people who realize they're not going to blow the money to not be "embarrassed" by their kitchen - and then rural and urban areas where there's not a whole lot wasted on kitchens.). 

It's a little weird to me - the house doesn't serve you when it adds 5 years to your working lifetime. You serve it, instead.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Devmeister said:


> on Curves
> While most amateurs focus on square work, you also have to consider the utilitarian purpose of what they made. When I needed a file caninet, of course it’s got square lines. Ever see a round filing cabinet?
> 
> stickly was influenced by scandavian lines and shaker lines. His initial work was very square. It was not until he hired Ellis before we saw more curves.
> 
> if you look at the work by Krenov, you see a unique style but one that is stil square even if it has the occasional coopered door.
> 
> the work done by chippendale et alhad square chest of drawers albeit some curves in the base skirts.
> 
> Details change the looks. The cock beading, the base molding, the crown molding. The same box can morph into a variety of styles.



I have included curves into a lot of my furniture. Sometimes it is quite subtle to soften what appears to be a straight line. I recall posting a piece on this forum for discussion, and bemoaning how much longer it took to make. Custard (Gary?), a local professional in the UK, and whose work I admire, commented that any curve creates three times the effort and time needed compared with square work.

We do not see much work in this vein, and I think that a big factor is that there are so many complications when one moves off-square. This is a chest of drawers I built for my wife. Working weekends only, it took 18 months. The case is a tapered curve on the sides and is bow-fronted. The drawers were made to fit the angles, and as a result, all the half-blind dovetails are made at compound angles (splay to the drawer side along with a splay to the curved drawer fronts). For reference, the drawer fronts are figured Jarrah, and the drawer sides quartersawn Tasmanian Oak, both Australian. The case is Makore (from West Africa).

This was published by FWW magazine ..






















As David said, there are amateurs making furniture like this as few pros can do so economically. I do not reject the use of machine connectors, such as biscuit joiners or Dominos (I own both). However, my view is that they make the entry to furniture making so easy, that so many are unlikely to go past this stage and learn traditional joinery. And THAT condemns all the furniture made to landfill eventually (all joinery here was either mortice&tenon, sliding dovetails or dovetails).

The earlier comments about changing kitchens every 10 years, sometimes less, is all about the perception of value. I know David has made a kitchen for home, and I'm sure others here have as well. I built ours several years ago, updating and replacing one made commercially some 25 years earlier. It was not a decision made lightly. The old kitchen was quite serviceable and actually very nice looking (in Tasmanian Oak). But 25 years before we liked raised panels, and then 25 years later we did not. Still, the reason it was replaced was because I could do all of the work (as David did, and as others here have done). Costs come into it, but the perception of value-added was emphasised by the use of solid wood (in my case, USA Curly Maple). I love the outcome and it still brings a glow of pride. We will be selling the house in a few years when I retire, and no doubt someone will pull it out and replace it with veneer or paint.











Bar stools made to match 






Amateurs rule!

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Kaizen123

@Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) as a learner I agree with you that all these power tools take away the ability to properly learn stuff. I was explaining what I've learned about dovetails so far to my better half and she said 'cant you just buy a tool that does it'. By the time I had said "yes but....' she had already Google'd a jig and gave me the price 

'why don't you just buy this?'

Harder to teach oneself properly but anyone can buy a jig. Depends what you're trying to achieve I suppose. For those that are looking for an interesting side hustle maybe a jig and a plethora of power tools is the way to go but if you actually appreciate craftsmanship then you can literally learn anything these days off your own steam with the internet square in your pocket and a bit of effort.


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## BucksDad

@Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) Thanks for the amazing resource that is your website. Definitely a standard for any hobbyist to aspire to! 

When you retire and sell your house, do you still plan to have a workshop at your next one and do more woodworking or are you going to down tools as well?


----------



## Cooper

Adam W. said:


> Tails only on two boards and pins only on two boards. Don't mix tails on one end and pins on the other end of a board, as you won't get the box together.


I remember children doing that when they made jewellery boxes and finding they had made a staircase!!
At the same time one lad made a really neat box from pine with dovetails. It was just after the Brixton Riots ( the school was just up the road from the action) and Charles and Dianna came to our hastily arranged Christmas Fair, to show solidarity with the community. As the Art and D&T departments had good examples of course work we put on an exhibition on in the Foyer with the children whose work was exhibited. Charles was brought along the line and looked at the box and said to the boy. "And how will you be finishing it? With inlay?". When he was out of ear shot, the boy said 'What's e goin on about sir." I said "Raymond he lives in a palace, everything he sees is over decorated. He can't see how elegant a simple object can be." 
All these memories from a conversation about dovetails.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

BucksDad said:


> @Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) Thanks for the amazing resource that is your website. Definitely a standard for any hobbyist to aspire to!
> 
> When you retire and sell your house, do you still plan to have a workshop at your next one and do more woodworking or are you going to down tools as well?



No fear, BD. And thanks for the kind words. The website hopefully offers ideas, methods and passion in equal amounts. 

We plan to sell up in about 3 years (I turned 72 less than a week ago). I might have been tempted to retire sooner, but Covid has placed a demand on my work (I am a child psychologist), and there is a shortage of specialists. Woodworking is my therapy, so it is very far from being something I will set aside. We have another house, not far from where we live, which is smaller and will not have the garden and pool to upkeep. It does lack a workshop, and building one from scratch is something that will be interesting (I've never had that privilege). I read with interest the experiences of others.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> ............... many are unlikely to go past this stage and learn traditional joinery. And THAT condemns all the furniture made to landfill eventually (all joinery here was either mortice&tenon, sliding dovetails or dovetails)...........


Absolutely.
Derek's stuff is of course immaculate but not to lose sight of the fact that even ordinary trad furniture at the cheap end of the scale, with speedily hacked out irregular dovetails, cheap materials, has quality and will outlast most modern garbage.
Just a detail - one odd thing about the modern amateur is the reliance on expensive bought drawer runners. Trad solid wood runner design is easy to implement, costs nothing (just offcuts usually), works well and lasts for years.
Bring back the traditional drawer runner!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Kaizen123 said:


> @Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) as a learner I agree with you that all these power tools take away the ability to properly learn stuff. I was explaining what I've learned about dovetails so far to my better half and she said 'cant you just buy a tool that does it'. By the time I had said "yes but....' she had already Google'd a jig and gave me the price
> 
> 'why don't you just buy this?'
> 
> Harder to teach oneself properly but anyone can buy a jig. Depends what you're trying to achieve I suppose. For those that are looking for an interesting side hustle maybe a jig and a plethora of power tools is the way to go but if you actually appreciate craftsmanship then you can literally learn anything these days off your own steam with the internet square in your pocket and a bit of effort.



Kaizen, if you really want to learn to dovetail, there are really just two skills to master:

1. Get your head around the marking out. It took me a while as I am spatially challenged! I would get everything backwards or upside down. 

2. Be brave, develop a "go for it" attitude, and saw to the line (the correct side of the line! ). It is only wood.

My eyes are old and I struggled to see the lines, especially in dark woods. So I developed the blue tape method. Try it out - it makes it easy to ensure the lines are clear and where you need to saw.

Here are two pictorials from my website:

Through dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

Half-blind dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Kaizen123

Starting to notice a pattern here...


----------



## Jacob

Kaizen123 said:


> Starting to notice a pattern here...


You are using some hefty pieces of wood, as for a strong box. That DT might work better if the 'half' pin on the edge was twice as wide, they don't have to be literally half the width of the others. As it is it'd be vulnerable even if the thing had gone together OK to start with.
Why not have a go at a real box of some sort, with thinner sides? If it doesn't come out OK you just trim the ends and start again with a smaller box


----------



## Kaizen123

Jacob said:


> You are using some hefty pieces of wood, as for a strong box. That DT might work better if the 'half' pin on the edge was twice as wide, they don't have to be literally half the width of the others. As it is it'd be vulnerable even if the thing had gone together OK to start with.
> Why not have a go at a real box of some sort, with thinner sides? If it doesn't come out OK you just trim the ends and start again with a smaller box


Yes I did think they were a bit chunky and maybe it'd be a lot simpler and possibly even, dare I say it, easier with some thinner wood. I find lots of thinner tails look nicer but I guess one or two big ones might be stronger? Not sure. The biggest pain in the buttocks so far has definitely been chiselling the bottom of the sockets out. Anyway I'm leaving this little project there because I layed out the boards wrong anyway so can't do the 4 sides. Leaving it at 3 and I'm going to attempt to mill the thickness down on the table saw and round them off. It'll stay in the shed staring me in the face as a reminder of this 5hrs work only to not be able to complete the box because I didn't fully think it through!

As I said at an earlier point in this thread I'm just going to keep on Dovetailing with anything I do if it needs joining for a while and hopefully it's going to sink in and a light bulb will turn on upstairs.


----------



## Adam W.

@Kaizen123 That stuff I'm going to send you will be much easier to work and it's a lot thinner.

I think I'll let you plane it flat, as I don't have the time and it'll be good practice.


----------



## Kaizen123

Adam W. said:


> @Kaizen123 That stuff I'm going to send you will be much easier to work and it's a lot thinner.
> 
> I think I'll let you plane it flat, as I don't have the time and it'll be good practice.


Thank you!
I am getting the hand of planing I think but I am struggling to set my plane. Its always takes too much off or nothing. I've got a handy jig for sharpening the blade but when it goes back into the block that's when the real trouble starts for me. Poco a Poco I'll get there.


----------



## Adam W.

It's a bit like learning to ride a bike, difficult at the beginning but it gets a lot easier.

You could always start a planing and sharpening thread for a laugh, we haven't had one for a week.


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> Absolutely.
> Derek's stuff is of course immaculate but not to lose sight of the fact that even ordinary trad furniture at the cheap end of the scale, with speedily hacked out irregular dovetails, cheap materials, has quality and will outlast most modern garbage.
> Just a detail - one odd thing about the modern amateur is the reliance on expensive bought drawer runners. Trad solid wood runner design is easy to implement, costs nothing (just offcuts usually), works well and lasts for years.
> Bring back the traditional drawer runner!



In kitchens now, it's expected. In furniture, I'd expect not to have it but in manufactured furniture that may not be the case. 

I tried to get away with putting fitted drawers in my kitchen cabinets but the prior cabinets actually had no drawer guides and the sides of the drawers had worn out (they were running on grooves in the drawer sides). So the wife said no, and I put in guides. If you don't use guides often, actually fitting them is a huge pain. 

The one benefit of the modern bits is if you have a drawer and door slammer like my wife (not out of anger, she's just flippant and rough, and so are the kids), the soft close hardware isn't very expensive if you buy it (I'm sure it's a healthy upcharge if you are buying stuff made by someone else) and it squashes the efforts of the drawer and door slammers.


----------



## D_W

Kaizen123 said:


> As I said at an earlier point in this thread I'm just going to keep on Dovetailing with anything I do if it needs joining for a while and hopefully it's going to sink in and a light bulb will turn on upstairs.



it will. Spend 10 percent of your time making looking at what you're doing and how it turns out and then think of how you will adjust the next time (not with extra guides, extra marking, etc....just extra what you'll do with your hands). 

it's the whole concentration thing (density of work). if you do this freehand a bunch in a short period of time, it will become part of you that you walk around with - point and shoot. I think every hobbyist would be far better off if they made a couple of their tools and forced themselves to work 100 board feet entirely by hand each year for the first five years. Minimizing the trouble in dimensioning wood (creeping closer to lines, forcing yourself to learn vertical by feel and eye) makes everything else easier even if you stop doing the dimensioning. 

I was talking with a retired professional here about the illusion to people that they would never be able to make anything working entirely by hand. It's true that they wouldn't be competitive in lots of business situations, but also the case that they would be in the shop more with the chance to work by hand because the work engages you more (it just doesn't at the very outset when every single thing seems difficult) and you can be uninterested and go do it whereas going into the shop uninterested in power tools at the very best will result in missed marks and throw-away lost material. Within minutes of planing or sawing, you're alert and fresh instead. 

What you make would be different and have different shapes, though - the current les paul project is giving me a slap in the face lesson about trying to do most of the work by hand on something that was designed to be made on machines and roughed with jigs.


----------



## thetyreman

if you haven't done already, I recommend making a dovetail template @Kaizen123 it'll make marking out so much faster and easier.


----------



## Kaizen123

thetyreman said:


> if you haven't done already, I recommend making a dovetail template @Kaizen123 it'll make marking out so much faster and easier.


I've got one off of Amazon. Would have been lost learning without it.


----------



## Devmeister

The work that Derek has shown demonstrates what is possible. Having worked on literally millions of dollars worth of commercial work, I have seen that world from the inside. I would never buy a set of commercial cabinets from a major manufacturer!!!!!!!! I know the issues and the short cuts.

I to own a domino jointer and a lamello biscuit jointer and a pocket screw jig. I own at least four power routers including porter cable and two festools. My go to router is a 1960s porter cable.

when making a specialty jig for my 1968 Oliver shaper, I have no issues using pocket screws. Same with router jigs.

what many don’t know is how the Germans perverted the cabinet. In an attempt to be more environmentally friendly they invented melamine. But melamine mass production has its own issues so they re-invented the machines toward this goal. The 32 mm standard. The 32 number stems from it being the tightest dimension that the gearing could handle at the time for multi spindle drills like the Ayens.

then we saw the beam saws and edge banders. On a beam saw I would cut up to seven sheets of melamine on a single program at once. A good beam saw guy can cut a Lory of melamine in a day or less! An entire kitchen worth of parts in an hour or less! Nothing cuts a cleaner more perfect square faster than a beam saw. I even cut exotic Veneer into edge banding quickly and perfectly.

the second generation saw the CNC multi drill router. Both spoil board and pod based point to point. Also new in the second generation was the CNC doweling machine that actually inserts the dowels. Most of my time was spent on Homag machines.

But none of this improves the quality of the workpiece. All these machines were designed to work sheet goods. If you do use the CNC on solid wood, you need to reprogram extra steps with left hand cutters to prevent major blowouts from the standard right hand cutters. Wood is not metal!

Real wood is getting harder to come by. Real mahogany is next to impossible to find. African Blackwood is brutal in cost. Brazilian rosewood is impossible. Walnut is loaded with defects and sap wood.

so doing a real project in solid wood is not cheap and we owe it to the wood to do it right. While I have no reservation to using a domino or biscuit on MDF I would consider it a cardinal sin to use anything but a dovetail or mortise on say English sycamore.

while dovetails were obscene in the 17 th century, I respect that on a reproduction or period piece. But on a contemporary piece, I will give the commercial world the finger and raspberry by making it a prominent design feature.

so an amateur with skills still has a choice. A choice that gets him quality and pride at the expense of personal hobby time. And what price can one place on an activity whose main purpose is relaxation, decompression and in my case mental therapy in getting me thru my divorce/separation or whatever the lawyers call it.


----------



## Devmeister

thetyreman said:


> if you haven't done already, I recommend making a dovetail template @Kaizen123 it'll make marking out so much faster and easier.



They do come in handy. Kingshot got one from an English source that is to die for. It was made of naval brass and had interchangeable templates for your various angles. I doubt it works better than a simple shop made one, but holy cow was it sexy. I wish I could remember the name of it.


----------



## Devmeister

Couple of common sense points. 
1). You need to develop the skill to saw accurately to but not over the gage lines! If you need practice do it. I even do it as a warm up if I haven’t done it in a while.

2). Your chisels have to be BRUTAL sharp. The softer the wood the sharper the chisel. When parring, take light cuts to insure control and clean cuts. Don’t get greedy.

3). When you begin a chop, remember the chisel will want to move backwards. Begin 1 or 2 mm forward to get started. Once you open it up you can work towards a chisel wall to complete the chop. This gage line is critical. You don’t want to go over it. Period!

There are many ways to excavate the waste and many use drills, fretsaws and other techniques. Whatever works for you. I personally love chisels. A super sharp chisel is more carving tool than can opener!


----------



## thetyreman

Devmeister said:


> They do come in handy. Kingshot got one from an English source that is to die for. It was made of naval brass and had interchangeable templates for your various angles. I doubt it works better than a simple shop made one, but holy cow was it sexy. I wish I could remember the name of it.



I made my own DT template as one of my very first projects in 2016, it's still being used today, I like to make them for anyone I know who's just starting out in woodworking and have given a few away.


----------



## Jacob

thetyreman said:


> I made my own DT template as one of my very first projects in 2016, it's still being used today, I like to make them for anyone I know who's just starting out in woodworking and have given a few away.


I've never used one. Freehand works fine but if I needed a particular angle I'd just use a normal sliding bevel.


----------



## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> ..... saw accurately to but not over the gage lines! .....


In fact almost all old work show cuts over the gauge line. Saves having to clean out corners. 
Higher quality stuff might not show it but I guess the cuts will be over the line for the same reason, but by just a gnats whisker.


----------



## Fred48

thetyreman said:


> I made my own DT template as one of my very first projects in 2016, it's still being used today, I like to make them for anyone I know who's just starting out in woodworking and have given a few away.


@thetyreman .
I would be very interested in seeing a photo of your dovetail template if you are happy posting one


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Devmeister said:


> Couple of common sense points.
> 1). You need to develop the skill to saw accurately to but not over the gage lines! If you need practice do it. I even do it as a warm up if I haven’t done it in a while.
> 
> 2). Your chisels have to be BRUTAL sharp. The softer the wood the sharper the chisel. When parring, take light cuts to insure control and clean cuts. Don’t get greedy.
> 
> 3). When you begin a chop, remember the chisel will want to move backwards. Begin 1 or 2 mm forward to get started. Once you open it up you can work towards a chisel wall to complete the chop. This gage line is critical. You don’t want to go over it. Period!
> 
> There are many ways to excavate the waste and many use drills, fretsaws and other techniques. Whatever works for you. I personally love chisels. A super sharp chisel is more carving tool than can opener!



All excellent points! 

Especially point #3. There are many recommendations to "place the chisel in the knife line". Now this can work, but not before almost all the waste is first cleared. If there is much waste (more than 3 or 4mm), a chisel struck downwards will travel backwards ... and over the base line (gage line). If there is just 1-2mm, of waste the chisel will travel straight down. This is one reason to either fretsaw away as much of the waste as possible, or to chop it out, leaving just 1-2mm to pare away.

But there is a better way ...

After sawing either the tails or pins, _before_ removing the waste, create a chisel wall along the baselines ...







Now saw away the waste. Aim to leave 1mm above the line. 

Here is a very short video I made (a strong coffee will keep you awake) ...








This is now easy to chop out, especially with the chisel wall to prevent the chisel being forced back over the line ...











Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## JobandKnock

Devmeister said:


> I would consider it a cardinal sin to use anything but a dovetail or mortise on say English sycamore.


In which case you probably wouldn't appreciate that sycamore, ash and birch were often regarded as little more than self-propagating weeds by the forestry guys in the UK. In the North of England, where I live, we don't have much beech so sycamore was used a lot for counter tops, draining boards and treen in place of beech. I even visited one timber yard up in Northumberland (30 odd years back) where they were felling it for use as pit props (for coal mines), because so much of it was black heart timber and had no commercial worth


----------



## jcassidy

@Kaizen123, I suspect when @Adam W. says you might need to do a little planing, he's sending you one of these...


----------



## Adam W.

And he's agreed to pay postage.


----------



## D_W

JobandKnock said:


> In which case you probably wouldn't appreciate that sycamore, ash and birch were often regarded as little more than self-propagating weeds by the forestry guys in the UK. In the North of England, where I live, we don't have much beech so sycamore was used a lot for counter tops, draining boards and treen in place of beech. I even visited one timber yard up in Northumberland (30 odd years back) where they were felling it for use as pit props (for coal mines), because so much of it was black heart timber and had no commercial worth



There was also a time where cuban and then honduran mahogany (which works like it's been buttered and seems indifferent to rotten technique) were more or less the choice for high end furniture. There are trees as you describe in the US, though - beech is little used other than treating for railroad ties or internal furniture use in the US because it's poorly behaved unless it's sawn nearly perfectly, and then requires a very slow drying schedule. 

one of the members on a US forum had land and described larger beech trees as "something that should be cut and burned - or just left to lay if not - so that more useful timber can get the light to grow". Beech falls in my township and is never even harvested to burn. Red oak is more or less the same thing here as euro beech is in europe (wood that grows fast, and has good hardness and size even when growing fast - except it's better behaved when drying. It's also ugly and utility-ish looking compared to nicer oaks unless it's perfectly sawn quartered, but that's rare). 

Mahogany is available here, but it's probably stuff from fiji and at a price that nobody will pay for utility furniture. The mahogany that I've gotten from fiji for guitars is barely more than tolerable (wide rings and even when sawn straight, it moves an awful lot for swietenia macrophylla, but it does still have that under the chisel and behind the saw blade sweetness - as in, you saw it and nothing chips off of the back of the cut, and you chisel it and there are no surprises).


----------



## Kaizen123

@jcassidy he did mention there would be a 'some' planing involved... Thank God I've got a no. 4 eh! Should be quick work.


----------



## Sean33

Jacob said:


> Absolutely.
> Derek's stuff is of course immaculate but not to lose sight of the fact that even ordinary trad furniture at the cheap end of the scale, with speedily hacked out irregular dovetails, cheap materials, has quality and will outlast most modern garbage.
> Just a detail - one odd thing about the modern amateur is the reliance on expensive bought drawer runners. Trad solid wood runner design is easy to implement, costs nothing (just offcuts usually), works well and lasts for years.
> Bring back the traditional drawer runner!


And all because of the soft close! Where and why have we become so lazy that we need a drawer to pull itself in that last 30mm..!


----------



## thetyreman

Fred48 said:


> I would be very interested in seeing a photo of your dovetail template if you are happy posting one



here you go, it's the same one as paul sellers uses.


----------



## Fred48

thetyreman said:


> here you go, it's the same one as paul sellers uses.



@thetyreman
Thank you.
I'll post images of mine in the next few days when I'm back on my computer.


----------



## jcassidy

thetyreman said:


> here you go, it's the same one as paul sellers uses.



ditto. Dead easy to make, surprisingly hard to make acccurately, at least it was for me.


----------



## JobandKnock

Devmeister said:


> They do come in handy. Kingshot got one from an English source that is to die for. It was made of naval brass and had interchangeable templates for your various angles.


Sounds like the one I have that used to be made by Collett Engineers. The "fingers" are brass and removeable:




The other nice one was the Richard Kell solid brass jobbie:




I'd like one of those, but Santa has never dropped one off so far - maybe next year?


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

I have a few I made out of brass angle (from 5:1 through 8:1) ..






These have the important advantage of running square across the top.






They are also easy to make in clear perspex (use superglue to stick together) ...






A small sliding bevel works best on the outside marking at the end of the board ..






That is a nice, pretty Vesper bevel, but these Stanleys are also great ...






Here is a complete kit, one I take to Woodshows or workshop demonstrations of joinery. Much of these I either made or purchased used on eBay ...











Stanley knife for scoring, Starrett 12"/300mm combo square, Starrett mini double square, Starrett small dividers, Shinwa sliding bevel, Veritas cutting gauges (mini and full size), dovetail gauges (5:1 and 7:1), and a driver holder with three driver bits and an awl.


Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Fred48

jcassidy said:


> ditto. Dead easy to make, surprisingly hard to make acccurately, at least it was for me.


@jcassidy .
Thank you. I found the same with the two templates I made. (Coming soon)


----------



## Fred48

JobandKnock said:


> Sounds like the one I have that used to be made by Collett Engineers. The "fingers" are brass and removeable:
> View attachment 127438
> 
> The other nice one was the Richard Kell solid brass jobbie:
> View attachment 127426
> 
> I'd like one of those, but Santa has never dropped one off so far - maybe next year?



@JobandKnock .
Thank you.


----------



## Fred48

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> I have a few I made out of brass angle (from 5:1 through 8:1) ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These have the important advantage of running square across the top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are also easy to make in clear perspex (use superglue to stick together) ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A small sliding bevel works best on the outside marking at the end of the board ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a nice, pretty Vesper bevel, but these Stanleys are also great ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a complete kit, one I take to Woodshows or workshop demonstrations of joinery. Much of these I either made or purchased used on eBay ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanley knife for scoring, Starrett 12"/300mm combo square, Starrett mini double square, Starrett small dividers, Shinwa sliding bevel, Veritas cutting gauges (mini and full size), dovetail gauges (5:1 and 7:1), and a driver holder with three driver bits and an awl.
> 
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek


@Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) ,
Thank you.


----------



## Kaizen123

Can I ask why brass? Looks or does it have some kind of practical application?

Are they any better than this for what they are?


----------



## Jameshow

I like the veritas ones not too expensive but good.








Veritas Dovetail Saddle Marker


The Veritas Dovetail Saddle Marker is available in 1:6 and 1:8 angles.




www.toolnut.co.uk




Cheers James


----------



## Jameshow

I have some alloy angle so might make some as Derek has done.


----------



## Jacob

I don't see the point of them at all.
You can do it freehand with no guide at all, after a bit of practice.
If you need a guide then a general purpose sliding bevel does it perfectly - and gives you a choice other than 1:6, 1:8, which have been chosen for no good reason as somehow "correct".
Or if needed I could knock one up from a few scraps in a minute or so.


----------



## Jacob

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> .....
> 
> 
> 
> A small sliding bevel works best on the outside marking at the end of the board ..
> 
> 
> 
> ......


And if you turn it left to right, or up and over, it works just as well on all of them.
All you need, if you really don't want to do it the "correct" way i.e. freehand - just as "correct" as any of the other notional values said to be correct.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Jacob said:


> I don't see the point of them at all.
> You can do it freehand with no guide at all, after a bit of practice.
> If you need a guide then a general purpose sliding bevel does it perfectly - and gives you a choice other than 1:6, 1:8, which have been chosen for no good reason as somehow "correct".
> Or if needed I could knock one up from a few scraps in a minute or so.


There are many things in the world of tools that aren't essential but having a tool specific to a single task can be a real joy and lead to more enjoyment of the task.
I have a wooden one that I got from Rob Cosman back in 2000 when he was teaching dovetails in Ottawa. Im was 100% eyeball before that and it showed  
I always fall in to the dovetailing frame of mind when I get it out of the drawer. Tools can be much more than the physical thing they are.


----------



## jcassidy

paulrbarnard said:


> I always fall in to the dovetailing frame of mind when I get it out of the drawer. Tools can be much more than the physical thing they are.



Exactly. I would never buy a gadget 'cos the sliding bevel is the tool for the job, but making some templates was challenging given my poor saw habits, and using them is a joy because it's mine and I made it. And it used up some scraps too.


----------



## Jacob

Did they use them in the good old days? Do they turn up in old tool collections or catalogues?


----------



## JobandKnock

Kaizen123 said:


> Can I ask why brass? Looks or does it have some kind of practical application?


For want of a better term, "eye candy"



Jacob said:


> I don't see the point of them at all.
> You can do it freehand with no guide at all, after a bit of practice.
> If you need a guide then a general purpose sliding bevel does it perfectly - and gives you a choice other than 1:6, 1:8, which have been chosen for no good reason as somehow "correct".


1:6 and 1:8 were being taught at City & Guilds as far back as the 1920s - so before even your time. No idea exactly where they came from. I was taught to use a sliding bevel. Mine happens to have been an unsolicited, unbidden present from a customer. No idea why, TBH



Jacob said:


> Did they use them in the good old days? Do they turn up in old tool collections or catalogues?


Of course not, well not yet. Give it time...


----------



## Fred48

Jameshow said:


> I like the veritas ones not too expensive but good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Veritas Dovetail Saddle Marker
> 
> 
> The Veritas Dovetail Saddle Marker is available in 1:6 and 1:8 angles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.toolnut.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers James


@Jameshow .
Thank you


----------



## Jameshow

Fred48 said:


> @Jameshow .
> Thank you


Np


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> Did they use them in the good old days? Do they turn up in old tool collections or catalogues?



I'd imagine if someone wanted to make one of these as a marking gauge back then, they'd have been made out of scrap because they will get marked up and dinged. As hard as it is to even find little used tools, I wouldn't be surprised if you wouldn't find much as far as marking templates or gadgets. 

Also wouldn't be surprised if a tails first cutter never marked anything other than square, and on common work, not even that, dividing the space by eye and controlling the angle by feel on the tail cut (or even the pins). 

Few at this point will cut often enough to do that in a way that looks aesthetically perfect or close enough to not be obvious.


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

D_W said:


> I'd imagine if someone wanted to make one of these as a marking gauge back then, they'd have been made out of scrap because they will get marked up and dinged. As hard as it is to even find little used tools, I wouldn't be surprised if you wouldn't find much as far as marking templates or gadgets.
> 
> Also wouldn't be surprised if a tails first cutter never marked anything other than square, and on common work, not even that, dividing the space by eye and controlling the angle by feel on the tail cut (or even the pins).
> 
> Few at this point will cut often enough to do that in a way that looks aesthetically perfect or close enough to not be obvious.



I imagine, David, that 100 years ago, those churning out furniture dovetailed by eye. No templates. However, those who wanted to pay attention to details, and charged more for this, used their sliding bevels to lay out the tails or pins (whichever way they chose to start).

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## thetyreman

I wonder if chippendale used a dovetail template?


----------



## CStanford

Skip to around the 8:00 minute mark to see the dovetails on the drawer of a John Towsend desk:


----------



## Jacob

CStanford said:


> Skip to around the 8:00 minute mark to see the dovetails on the drawer of a John Towsend desk:



So-called "London pattern" aren't particularly difficult.
The simple trick is to start the second cut in the kerf of the first. Can't go wrong.
The very thin chisel craft knife is more or less essential for marking from pinhole to pinboard
Just cleaning up a drawer side here. These are freehand. The bottom half pin is smaller so that the tail covers the end of the slot in the front board. Next a bevel to be taken off to the gauge line.
I quite like the slightly irregular look but if I wanted perfection I might mark them out with dividers, but still cut freehand.


----------



## CStanford

Just speaking to the overall layout, not the fine pins which are no more difficult to cut than others. That said, nice job.


----------



## Droogs

@Jacob those a very nice for being done in pine


----------



## D_W

Droogs said:


> @Jacob those a very nice for being done in pine



pine likes to be done tight - or rather, if you're going to cheat on things being a little tight, pine will compress and make the job look nice even when it's quick.


----------



## Jacob

I like pine but its a PITA.
You have to have very precise deeply cut lines to work to, and a fine DT saw - mine's an old standard pattern 8" S&J 21 point


----------



## Adam W.

Jacob said:


> So-called "London pattern" aren't particularly difficult.
> The simple trick is to start the second cut in the kerf of the first. Can't go wrong.
> The very thin chisel craft knife is more or less essential for marking from pinhole to pinboard
> Just cleaning up a drawer side here. These are freehand. The bottom half pin is smaller so that the tail covers the end of the slot in the front board. Next a bevel to be taken off to the gauge line.
> I quite like the slightly irregular look but if I wanted perfection I might mark them out with dividers, but still cut freehand.
> 
> View attachment 127541


They look excellent.


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> I like pine but its a PITA.
> You have to have very precise deeply cut lines to work to, and a fine DT saw - mine's an old standard pattern 8" S&J 21 point



I'd encourage anyone who wants to do dovetails to use a sharp saw (it doesn't have to be terribly fine, there's always a back side to the cut) and mind how marked lines move in softwood if not careful. 

A fine knife should always be at hand, but I"m a little biased because they are about the easiest thing for a toolmaker to make - any scrap tool steel is a better marking knife than you can buy in half an hour. 

I do like the way pine compresses, though, as long as the pine isn't the hard earlywood ring and crumbly latewood variety (white pine here isn't that, though - yellow pine here can at times be a chisel destroyer - and if chisels are marginal, it's extreme).


----------



## Droogs

Scot's Pine is like that, esp the old growth stuff. I was given some boards milled from an old fortress gate many years ago and broke the edge off 2 Jsph Marples 1/2" registered chisels. Turned out the pine was over a 800 years old and had about 20 rings to the inch, slow grown or what. Ended up using a morticer in the end to make the holes. It would ring with every hit, amazingly good stuff and smelled fantastic when you planed it.


----------



## Jacob

Droogs said:


> Scot's Pine is like that, esp the old growth stuff. I was given some boards milled from an old fortress gate many years ago and broke the edge off 2 Jsph Marples 1/2" registered chisels. Turned out the pine was over a 800 years old and had about 20 rings to the inch, slow grown or what. Ended up using a morticer in the end to make the holes. It would ring with every hit, amazingly good stuff and smelled fantastic when you planed it.


I've planed and turned stuff which was 150+ years old and it's amazing how fresh it can seem. Wouldn't know it was old sometimes.


----------



## Just4Fun

At the other extreme a couple of months ago I cut some dovetails in some pine panels that are about 2 years old. Horrible stuff to work and I noticed today that the wood has shrunk noticably; the end of the pins is significantly proud of the side of the tails. Luckily it was just a temporary job so it doesn't really matter.


----------



## Jacob

Just4Fun said:


> At the other extreme a couple of months ago I cut some dovetails in some pine panels that are about 2 years old. Horrible stuff to work and I noticed today that the wood has shrunk noticably; the end of the pins is significantly proud of the side of the tails. Luckily it was just a temporary job so it doesn't really matter.


Can't blame the wood for drying out. 
Pine isn't too bad for movement as far as I know, except after gluing with water based glue - may take some time to dry right out and shrink back.
Just PVA glued up some pine drawer bottoms but will leave them as long as possible before planing and finishing.


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> I've planed and turned stuff which was 150+ years old and it's amazing how fresh it can seem. Wouldn't know it was old sometimes.



hard to tell from one wood to the next. douglas fir and yellow pine can end up being powdery between the rings and then the rings can be hard and brittle.

Rosewood on the other hand can end up being really brittle and splintery, or it can end up losing (especially cocobolo and bois de rose) the oiliness of the wood over many decades and be just divine to work when it's older.


----------



## Devmeister

thetyreman said:


> I wonder if chippendale used a dovetail template?


Nooooopr!!!!!
My dad bought a few chests from an antique dealer in Chicago. My ex/Grilfteind was stupid and did not think much of them. I found one destroyed by weather out by the barn and all I could salvage was the brass.

Chipoendale eventually used craftsmen in his employ to do much of the work as business was good. Townsend was a decifle of chippendale and worked in the states. The designs were similar but chippendale used. Mahogany with oak often the secondary. Townsend used walnut with eastern white pine as the secondary.

In the drawers I have examined, it appears the tails were done pins first by eye. The same approach used by Frank Kluauz. The angles were close but different. Frank was taught to be fast. Chris Becksvort was taught the German way of tails first. Kingshot did high end work including commissions to the crown.

often Kingshot would mark out a quick 1in 7 on a board and set a sliding bevel. Later he used a clear plastic gage he made.

There is an overwhelming school of thought in commission work these days toward cutting the socket necks narrow. Often towards 1/8 in. While not a true London tail, it’s a statement of hand cut tails. The1/8 in being based on the smallest standard chisel in use.

Becksvort could care less as his customer base knows better. His work is primarily cherry based shaker reproductions. He often used a LN gage.

Lie Nielsen has been at it for 35 plus years. His tools are straight forward and built for craftsmen. He avoids fancy updates and embellishments like you see in Veritas and Bridgecity. Becksvort shares this basic mentality as do I.

So the focus is on basic high quality and functional work. Straightforward joinery with locally sourced timber.


----------



## Adam W.

I'm going to throw my hat in the ring by saying that a gauge or square was not used for cutting dovetails by joiners in the past.

My reasoning:

They knew how to cut square.
If they could skip a step to make the job more efficient, they would.
Why would they bother to mark out the dovetails angles and square when all they needed was a gauge line to work down to and one part acts as a templet for the other ?

And crucially, if you couldn't cut square you wouldn't get a job as a joiner and you'd be sweeping the floor instead.


----------



## Devmeister

D_W said:


> hard to tell from one wood to the next. douglas fir and yellow pine can end up being powdery between the rings and then the rings can be hard and brittle.
> 
> Rosewood on the other hand can end up being really brittle and splintery, or it can end up losing (especially cocobolo and bois de rose) the oiliness of the wood over many decades and be just divine to work when it's older.



Rosewoods and boxwood for that matter have a strange property. Theor stability improves with age. That is why many older rulers were made from boxwood. Infills often used rosewood as well. What many don’t know is that impinga or African Blackwood is not ebony but rather a rose wood. Clarinets are made from Blackwood,


----------



## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> .......
> 
> In the drawers I have examined, it appears the tails were done pins first by eye.


 Me too. And done in pairs for each drawer - it's easy to cut two sides together but more than that gets fiddly aligning them and you need a coarser saw than 20tpi


> ........
> 
> There is an overwhelming school of thought in commission work these days toward cutting the socket necks narrow. Often towards 1/8 in. While not a true London tail, it’s a statement of hand cut tails. The1/8 in being based on the smallest standard chisel in use.


I wonder where the term "London" tail or pattern came from? I assume it is recent but stand to be corrected.
I've been doing it on drawers without actually giving it much though except that they look trim. I've also used steeper angles than the supposedly "correct" ones, just for a change


> ....
> 
> So the focus is on basic high quality and functional work. Straightforward joinery with locally sourced timber.


Sounds good!


----------



## Devmeister

Adam W. said:


> I'm going to throw my hat in the ring by saying that a gauge or square was not used for cutting dovetails by joiners in the past.
> 
> My reasoning:
> 
> They knew how to cut square.
> If they could skip a step to make the job more efficient, they would.
> Why would they bother to mark out the dovetails angles and square when all they needed was a gauge line to work down to and one part acts as a templet for the other ?


Your reasoning is spot on and my proof is in two parts.

1). I have access to originals and I have seen this to be the case.

2). The drawer bottoms were solid wood. They were not finished as evidenced by rough tool marks done by either a scrub plane or a badger.

I have seen the same to be true with a 1774 Hepplewhite Bombay chest.


----------



## Jacob

Adam W. said:


> ....
> 
> And crucially, if you couldn't cut square you wouldn't get a job as a joiner and you'd be sweeping the floor instead.


Or in another shop, if you couldn't do quickly and effectively, even if a bit roughly....


----------



## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> .....
> 
> 2). The drawer bottoms were solid wood. They were not finished as evidenced by rough tool marks done by either a scrub plane or a badger.
> .....


Talking of badgers - friends of mine in France have charming ancient furniture and they say the backs/bottoms etc look as though attacked by bears.


----------



## Devmeister

England was the center of the universe for high end work at the time. The Germans were influenced by religious viewpoints which would spawn the shaker and Amish schools of design.

The top end tools reflect this. As much as I love my original Stanley’s and LN tools, nothing cuts hardwood like an English infill!

Have guys seen a modern craftsman screwdriver with its plastic handle? No Accident! That is a London pattern! My Sorby chisels have that handle done in boxwood. Octagon sides with turned ends.


----------



## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> Talking of badgers - friends of mine in France have charming ancient furniture and they say the backs/bottoms etc look as though attacked by bears.


That is indeed true. They didn’t have the modern machines we have. In the few reproductions I have done, not many mind you, I actually used a LN scrub plane on these surfaces to get rid of machine marks to make it more realistic. It the only time I have used the scrub plane.


----------



## Devmeister

Jacob said:


> Talking of badgers - friends of mine in France have charming ancient furniture and they say the backs/bottoms etc look as though attacked by bears.


By the way, a badger is not an animal. It is an English plane with a wood body about the size of a Stanley or record #5 with a wide mouth and often a curved blade. It takes a really thick shaving. It can take a board dow to thickness fast!


----------



## Devmeister

CStanford said:


> Skip to around the 8:00 minute mark to see the dovetails on the drawer of a John Towsend desk:



This is a wonderful look at Townsends work. I didn’t know that Townsend used this much mahogany which was pricy back then. His dovetail work on this piece was outstanding. I am tempted to say his works trumped the chippendale work I have seen. Really impressed.


----------



## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> This is a wonderful look at Townsends work. I didn’t know that Townsend used this much mahogany which was pricy back then. His dovetail work on this piece was outstanding. I am tempted to say his works trumped the chippendale work I have seen. Really impressed.


Nice work. I've never seen that set-in bottom detail. It would do fine for light work as in this desk. The actual runner surface would be much wider than the sides of the drawers and be supporting the bottoms directly.
The DTs look about 1:5. Did nobody tell him the "correct" angles?


----------



## Adam W.

Jacob said:


> Or in another shop, if you couldn't do quickly and effectively, even if a bit roughly....


They were probably doing piece work anyway, and if you were slow, you were just taking up valuable bench space which could be occupied by someone who was faster.

I'm sure that it was quite a brutal time to be working in.


----------



## Just4Fun

Jacob said:


> Devmeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the drawers I have examined, it appears the tails were done _pins first_ by eye.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too. And done in pairs for each drawer - it's easy to cut two sides together
Click to expand...

I am confused. How do you cut two sides together when cutting pins first? I have occasionally done it when cutting tails first, but pins first?


----------



## Jacob

Just4Fun said:


> I am confused. How do you cut two sides together when cutting pins first? I have occasionally done it when cutting tails first, but pins first?


I assume Devmeister meant tails first which means pin _holes_ first, but we could be talking at cross purposes!


----------



## Jacob

Devmeister said:


> This is a wonderful look at Townsends work. I didn’t know that Townsend used this much mahogany which was pricy back then. His dovetail work on this piece was outstanding. I am tempted to say his works trumped the chippendale work I have seen. Really impressed.


Just had a closer look at the vid.
Spectacular piece of furniture but I'm not so sure about his drawer details being at all noteworthy.
Lots of emphasis and craft skill devoted to the visible fronts but the rest although very neat is not special at all, just done practically and simply. In fact the glued and nailed on runner (12 minutes in) is a very cheap detail.
And that's how it is with masses of furniture at every price level.
In fact highly finished backs, undersides, largely out of sight including dovetails, is often the mark of an over-enthusiastic amateur, which Townsend definitely was not!


----------



## CStanford

Devmeister said:


> This is a wonderful look at Townsends work. I didn’t know that Townsend used this much mahogany which was pricy back then. His dovetail work on this piece was outstanding. I am tempted to say his works trumped the chippendale work I have seen. Really impressed.



This piece realized $1.9 million at auction. Interesting details on some of the more or less hidden areas of the piece:





__





THE TOWNSEND FAMILY CHIPPENDALE MAHOGANY BLOCK-AND-SHELL BUREAU TABLE


ATTRIBUTED TO JOHN TOWNSEND (1733-1809), NEWPORT, RHODE ISLAND, CIRCA 1790




www.christies.com





Christie's also handled the auction of a Goddard secretary which fetched a little over $12 million at auction. I believe it was purchased by Israel Sack. The Goddards and Townsends were related by marriage and both had operations in Newport, RI.


----------



## CStanford

Jacob said:


> Just had a closer look at the vid.
> Spectacular piece of furniture but I'm not so sure about his drawer details being at all noteworthy.
> Lots of emphasis and craft skill devoted to the visible fronts but the rest although very neat is not special at all, just done practically and simply. In fact the glued and nailed on runner (12 minutes in) is a very cheap detail.
> And that's how it is with masses of furniture at every price level.
> In fact highly finished backs, undersides, largely out of sight including dovetails, is often the mark of an over-enthusiastic amateur, which Townsend definitely was not!



I don't think customers at the time bought furniture based on how drawer dovetails looked. The ones in the video were certainly neat enough to do their job. One hoped that one's house guests didn't go around opening the drawers of furniture to see what the dovetails looked like. If a piece didn't make a statement as it sat in the room (drawers closed!) it didn't sell. The rest was just more or less standard cabinet work, and I'm sure a premium was put on speed. There were literally dozens of cabinetmakers in Newport RI at the time. If you were slow, you'd better have been making something worth the wait.

My link to the portion of the video showing the drawer was mostly to show the spacing. A rank beginner could probably cut the joint in the video within their first year or two in the trade. Certainly somebody starting out now could, with all the helps and aids available and no apprenticeship which started with much more mundane tasks. Now, you can skip right to dovetailing if you choose to.

We've all seen beautifully dovetailed drawers on ghastly pieces of the most boring and mundane furniture imaginable. It seems _en vogue_ at the moment.


----------



## Jacob

CStanford said:


> ......One hoped that one's house guests didn't go around opening the drawers of furniture to see what the dovetails looked like.


You'd be surprised! I had my stuff in a local show and was amazed at the number of old chaps who came and went straight for my dovetails, even criticising them for being incorrectly angled! 


> If a piece didn't make a statement as it sat in the room (drawers closed!) it didn't sell. The rest was just more or less standard cabinet work, .....


Exactly.


----------



## D_W

CStanford said:


> This piece realized $1.9 million at auction. Interesting details on some of the more or less hidden areas of the piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE TOWNSEND FAMILY CHIPPENDALE MAHOGANY BLOCK-AND-SHELL BUREAU TABLE
> 
> 
> ATTRIBUTED TO JOHN TOWNSEND (1733-1809), NEWPORT, RHODE ISLAND, CIRCA 1790
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.christies.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christie's also handled the auction of a Goddard secretary which fetched a little over $12 million at auction. I believe it was purchased by Israel Sack. The Goddards and Townsends were related by marriage and both had operations in Newport, RI.



that is a handsome piece of furniture. Look at the smoothness of all of the show areas, but it's not a bland smoothness. It's crisp. Near perfection. 

The mellons and a few others here own a lot of furniture in that class (nobody else could afford to, I guess) and loan it to the Carnegie museum. When you see it in person, if the quality of the workmanship and the crispness of the details don't grip you, you have to be dead.


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> You'd be surprised! I had my stuff in a local show and was amazed at the number of old chaps



They're not old enough - most of the "old timers" here never did fine work. My grandfather is long dead - his buddy made a living making fine cabinets and clocks. I didn't see much evidence of hand work - production hand workers were long gone. The fellow I'm talking about made near visually perfect pieces, but they definitely had the power tool taste (they weren't fat and out of proportion, just very smooth looking with very perfect even finishing work, etc). I guess that was the thing in the 1950s or so - the somewhat modern take.


----------



## CStanford

Jacob said:


> You'd be surprised! I had my stuff in a local show and was amazed at the number of old chaps who came and went straight for my dovetails, even criticising them for being incorrectly angled!  Exactly.



Dovetailing has definitely become a top-ten hobby.

If people were given a choice between being able to create truly inspired designs OR being able to cut flawless dovetails I think 65%+ would choose the latter.

I tend to run hot, cold, and in-between on James Krenov's work depending on my mood, but I have taken note that some of his most famous pieces had side-to-top joinery of simple dowels. He didn't want dovetails to interrupt the look and dowels were more than strong enough for the application. There is most definitely a message in there. He was certainly not challenged by the cutting of dovetails. He just didn't shoehorn them in wherever he could have.


----------



## Just4Fun

I think dovetails look ugly so I avoid them whenever possible.
I really enjoy cutting dovetails so I include them whenever possible.

Oh wait ... I am starting to see my problem.


----------



## Adam W.

Luckily most of my dovetails are as big as your hand and can't be seen, as they hold buildings together and go together with a satisfying CLUNK!


----------



## Jacob

CStanford said:


> Dovetailing has definitely become a top-ten hobby.


I suppose it's the one joint you need to be able to do if you want to promote yourself from competent joiner to beginner cabinet maker, not least because in something as basic as a chest of drawers there may be hundreds of the blighters.


----------



## Jameshow

Jacob said:


> I suppose it's the one joint you need to be able to do if you want to promote yourself from competent joiner to beginner cabinet maker, not least because in something as basic as a chest of drawers there may be hundreds of the blighters.


Thanks where do I pick up my certificate?


----------



## thetyreman

I love the secret mitred dovetail especially mitred, it's a very elegant joint, but a bit messed up how they are all hidden, I've only ever seen japanese craftsmen using it in cabinet making.


----------



## Jacob

Jameshow said:


> Thanks where do I pick up my certificate?
> 
> View attachment 127642


You have to show yer dovetails first!


----------



## CStanford

Jacob said:


> I suppose it's the one joint you need to be able to do if you want to promote yourself from competent joiner to beginner cabinet maker, not least because in something as basic as a chest of drawers there may be hundreds of the blighters.





Jacob said:


> I suppose it's the one joint you need to be able to do if you want to promote yourself from competent joiner to beginner cabinet maker, not least because in something as basic as a chest of drawers there may be hundreds of the blighters.



Certainly a necessary evil. All the more reason not to have them gratuitously showing everywhere one looks. It's all gotten a little old, just like the contrasting wood craze. Both, though, apparently have at least nine lives.


----------



## Jacob

Showing them was trendy in 15th century! The History Of Wooden Chests And Storage Boxes » Scaramanga Blog
An interesting blog. Hasn't got as far as the "Systainer" yet, some way still to go for the apotheosis of the "box".


----------



## Jameshow

Jacob said:


> You have to show yer dovetails first!


Yeap through and blind! Not the best!


----------



## Jacob

Jameshow said:


> Yeap through and blind! Not the best!


Keep hacking away they only get better!


----------



## JobandKnock

Jacob said:


> An interesting blog. Hasn't got as far as the "Systainer" yet...


If they ever do dovetailed ones in wood, sign me up! What do you have against having a way to carry two or 3 tools in one hand at a time? A bit of price work up on the 15th floor would soon sort you out


----------



## TRITON

I've decided im going to rename them pigeonarses.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin

Titbums?


----------



## Jacob

JobandKnock said:


> If they ever do dovetailed ones in wood, sign me up! What do you have against having a way to carry two or 3 tools in one hand at a time? A bit of price work up on the 15th floor would soon sort you out


Actually I was sorted out with the classic suitcase style joiners box, dovetailed in wood, which is excellent size/shape for carrying stuff around buildings and through doors, up stairs etc. Designed for the job. One in each hand if necessary. Also on the job you can open the front opening drop down lid with everything in the box accessible and the lid there as a tray for all the bits and bobs.
There's loads of them still around, different trades had different sizes and details, first project on a C&G course etc.
Made to fit the tools e.g. overall length of a hand saw (clipped to the lid), width of a plane and an oil stone side by side etc.
I might start calling it "the thingtainer". 
PS come to think - it was our first venture into dovetails, having previously spent what felt like months doing half lap joint with bits of 2x1"


----------



## JobandKnock

Jacob said:


> Actually I was sorted out with the classic suitcase style joiners box.....


Which is completely and utterly useless for most trades these days. The job has changed a bit since the 1980s with the move towards power tools and higher productivity. In fact advances in cordless tool technology over the last 10 to 15 years have changed things faster than in the previous 40 or more years. That's why even those of us who made these "classic" tool have abandoned them in favour of open top totes, pull along boxes, and yes Systainers and their ilk. They are much more practical

That doesn't mean to say I don't appreciate the work that goes into a dovetailed joint



Jacob said:


> There's loads of them still around, different trades had different sizes and details, first project on a C&G course etc.


I doubt that I've seen anyone walk on site with one of those in more than 30 years other than the occasional French polishers (who tend to have a fairly minimal kit). It's because they no longer work for the majority of trades. I certainly abandoned mine long ago - too small, too inflexible in what it could carry, too small for power tools



Jacob said:


> Made to fit the tools e.g. overall length of a hand saw (clipped to the lid), width of a plane and an oil stone side by side etc.


No mention there of cordless tools, caulking guns, foam guns, nail guns, pinners, trim routers, etc. I see. The old ways are the best? The old ways are often unproductive and not a lot of use when you are dealing with modern materials like cement fibre board or sheet materials. Great for some things, but not so many things. Even when sistering joists, doing beam end replacements or replacing damaged king posts tools like angle drills and powered saws are more productive than hand tools. It's called progress


----------



## D_W

CStanford said:


> Dovetailing has definitely become a top-ten hobby.
> 
> If people were given a choice between being able to create truly inspired designs OR being able to cut flawless dovetails I think 65%+ would choose the latter.
> 
> I tend to run hot, cold, and in-between on James Krenov's work depending on my mood, but I have taken note that some of his most famous pieces had side-to-top joinery of simple dowels. He didn't want dovetails to interrupt the look and dowels were more than strong enough for the application. There is most definitely a message in there. He was certainly not challenged by the cutting of dovetails. He just didn't shoehorn them in wherever he could have.



I don't care much for krenov's furniture, either, but if he ties it together with dowels instead of dovetails, I can't see how it makes much difference. Maybe he's just bored with making dovetails. 

The biggest problem for amateur woodworkers (at least that I can think of) is the fact that design is discussed when....never? I find warren a bit too married to "doing it" the way it was describe 200 years ago in every respect, but one of the things he said that was relatively worthwhile was the difference between early career introduction 200 years ago and now - that design would be hammered into someone's head as they're learning immediately - it wouldn't be something put off until later. 

I can't see why it should be delayed - it literally changes what you make, what tools you use, how ho make things and what materials you use. 

There'd be a whole lot less guitar top wood chests with purpleheart trim if people had some sense of lines and proportions. 

Personally, I like cutting dovetails - it's relaxing as long as the stock being used isn't outright junk, but I enjoy hiding them, too. 

Even leo fender's relatively inexpensive fender designs didn't violate basic design standards (neither did gibson's guitar, and when I did the legwork to read about their design, sure enough, they had professional design attention and weren't just throw together). People don't seem to care at this point that the necks are screwed on fenders (and there's nothing that I can think of where that's a problem, either - they're easily repairable and sound great).

Ted McCarty made the point that when they made a carved top set neck guitar (the les paul) with a permanent fitted joint, it was to give the market (important words he used) a "higher perceived quality" than fender's guitars.


----------



## Jacob

JobandKnock said:


> Which is completely and utterly useless for most trades these days. The job has changed a bit since the 1980s with the move towards power tools and higher productivity. In fact advances in cordless tool technology over the last 10 to 15 years have changed things faster than in the previous 40 or more years. That's why even those of us who made these "classic" tool have abandoned them in favour of open top totes, pull along boxes, and yes Systainers and their ilk. They are much more practical
> 
> That doesn't mean to say I don't appreciate the work that goes into a dovetailed joint
> 
> 
> I doubt that I've seen anyone walk on site with one of those in more than 30 years other than the occasional French polishers (who tend to have a fairly minimal kit). It's because they no longer work for the majority of trades. I certainly abandoned mine long ago - too small, too inflexible in what it could carry, too small for power tools
> 
> 
> No mention there of cordless tools, caulking guns, foam guns, nail guns, pinners, trim routers, etc. I see. The old ways are the best? The old ways are often unproductive and not a lot of use when you are dealing with modern materials like cement fibre board or sheet materials. Great for some things, but not so many things. Even when sistering joists, doing beam end replacements or replacing damaged king posts tools like angle drills and powered saws are more productive than hand tools. It's called progress


Yes OK!
Actually the only thing about "systainers" that irks me is the name and the hint of daft gadgetry. 
What's wrong with "box" or "festool box"? And a suitably designed wooden box ("thingtainer"?  ) would probably do just as well and be cheaper.


----------



## Jameshow

Fas


Jacob said:


> Yes OK!
> Actually the only thing about "systainers" that irks me is the name and the hint of daft gadgetry.
> What's wrong with "box" or "festool box"? And a suitably designed wooden box ("thingtainer"?  ) would probably do just as well and be cheaper.


Fashion, Jacob fashion a notion you and I struggle to grasp!!


----------



## JobandKnock

They aren't the only ones, Jacob. Bosch went to using the "L-Boxx" (a commercially available alternative), deWalt created their "Tough System" (compatible with some Stanley products) whilst Milwaukee have their "Pack-Out" system. It isn't fashion - it's just an easier way to lug round the increasing amount of stuff we seem to need - or a modern version of the journeyman's chest if you like (only modular). Or do you think that the standard shipping container is a fashion item, @Jameshow ?


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

D_W said:


> I don't care much for krenov's furniture, either, but if he ties it together with dowels instead of dovetails, I can't see how it makes much difference. Maybe he's just bored with making dovetails.
> 
> The biggest problem for amateur woodworkers (at least that I can think of) is the fact that design is discussed when....never? I find warren a bit too married to "doing it" the way it was describe 200 years ago in every respect, but one of the things he said that was relatively worthwhile was the difference between early career introduction 200 years ago and now - that design would be hammered into someone's head as they're learning immediately - it wouldn't be something put off until later.
> 
> 
> .....



There is a time for dovetails, and a time for not. When Krenov used dowels on cases, it was a deliberate decision to avoid adding a distraction to the flow of the figure. 

You do not have to identify with his designs. There are pieces which I love, and pieces that leave me indifferent. I do enjoy the quiet and calm that surrounds his furniture. He reached the soul of many of us, and inspired a love of the wood, encouraged our passion to be expressed in our own designs and visions. 

In this he was very, very different from the Paul Sellers and Rob Cosmans of this world, who teach what to do rather than how to see.

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## D_W

I'm not sure how dovetails would cause interruption in flow of figure - they can be hidden. 

My point is they can be hidden and in the case that they're hidden or not used in favor of dowels and a piece looks the same and doesn't come apart, I don't see a difference. 

The reason I don't know more about krenov is specifically due to not ever seeing a piece of furniture that I consider attractive - how he makes the designs is kind of unimportant in my book unless they fall apart (but even then, that's his business. The reality is few of us will build anything that falls apart).


----------



## Cooper

Adam W. said:


> They look excellent.





Adam W. said:


> I'm going to throw my hat in the ring by saying that a gauge or square was not used for cutting dovetails by joiners in the past.


I have to say I haven't used a template since we had tinplate ones in first year at technical school. I've always marked the top of the tails and shoulder line and set the work at an angle so the cut is square and vertical. This is straight forward when you mark pins from tails but I can't quite get my head around relying on cutting square if you start by making the pins first as I understand some do. But I suppose once a technique is automatic its hard to imagine an alternative?


----------



## Devmeister

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> There is a time for dovetails, and a time for not. When Krenov used dowels on cases, it was a deliberate decision to avoid adding a distraction to the flow of the figure.
> 
> You do not have to identify with his designs. There are pieces which I love, and pieces that leave me indifferent. I do enjoy the quiet and calm that surrounds his furniture. He reached the soul of many of us, and inspired a love of the wood, encouraged our passion to be expressed in our own designs and visions.
> 
> In this he was very, very different from the Paul Sellers and Rob Cosmans of this world, who teach what to do rather than how to see.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



A very elegant statement. My issue with Krenov is that I see his work more as artistic sculpture than practical furniture. It certainly makes a statement. A fluiditic fusion of modern lines and unusual organic wood features. I doubt there is a true woodworker that wouldn’t admire it as a piece.

Design is an issue. There is much to be said here. I have had to work with many Pitt State University grads. These lads were trained on how to mass produce melamine boxes with modern machines. No dovetails! No traditional anything! Pure modern fitment. When we did the T-Mobil job in Vegas, it was all CNC fit solid surface corian panels.

In commercial fitment, one begins with a dry walled box. It can take on any atmosphere you wish from a surgical white Plam collection of cabinets to the rustic barn wood environment of a biker bar to the atmosphere of an English pub. The vivid colors of plam used in sushi-Rama job looked like an acid trip while the high end elegance of AUP reflected the pose elegance of a Swiss watch vendor. We didn’t do the designs but we had to make them reality. Sometimes easy, sometime frustrating. So design is a complex concept that gets to little attention in our small world.


----------



## Devmeister

Cooper said:


> I have to say I haven't used a template since we had tinplate ones in first year at technical school. I've always marked the top of the tails and shoulder line and set the work at an angle so the cut is square and vertical. This is straight forward when you mark pins from tails but I can't quite get my head around relying on cutting square if you start by making the pins first as I understand some do. But I suppose once a technique is automatic its hard to imagine an alternative?



As mentioned either way works. I like to take the time to mark out my tails for my stuff. I can look at it to see if I like it. In tool boxes made for individual tools I like to saw the lid free one the box is done. So a tail first approach allows for lid kerf allowance and proper placement. Otherwise you can butcher up a tail pin set.

on half laps doing tails first makes it easy to mark pins. Doing pins first is a pain in the buttocks to mark out the tails.


----------



## furnace

D_W said:


> The biggest problem for amateur woodworkers (at least that I can think of) is the fact that design is discussed when....never? I find warren a bit too married to "doing it" the way it was describe 200 years ago in every respect, but one of the things he said that was relatively worthwhile was the difference between early career introduction 200 years ago and now - that design would be hammered into someone's head as they're learning immediately - it wouldn't be something put off until later.


I think many amateurs (I am one) are taken with the desire to make things, and relish the challenges of the joinery that enable them - the design is often a means to an end. I find the technical aspect more intuitive and struggle with design, hence looking at pleasing pieces is as important to me as studying techniques for well fitting joints.
It's worth noting that the things I have made for people have been liked for how they look and very little of that is due to the difficulty, or otherwise, of the joinery.

Note to self: Get better at designing.


----------



## Adam W.

You learn design by copying well designed work. Historically, design was the job of the foreman, not the bench joiner or apprentice who were there to bash out work as quickly as possible and make profit.


----------



## Jacob

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> There is a time for dovetails, and a time for not. When Krenov used dowels on cases, it was a deliberate decision to avoid adding a distraction to the flow of the figure.
> 
> You do not have to identify with his designs. There are pieces which I love, and pieces that leave me indifferent. I do enjoy the quiet and calm that surrounds his furniture. He reached the soul of many of us, and inspired a love of the wood, encouraged our passion to be expressed in our own designs and visions.
> 
> In this he was very, very different from the Paul Sellers and Rob Cosmans of this world, who teach what to do rather than how to see.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek


Well yes and something made with the techniques of Sellers or Cosman is likely to be well made but things made _in the style of Krenov _often turn out not too good on either front!
I quite like some of Krenov's bits and bobs but they never wildly excited me.
PS as Adam says above; copy.
First rule of good design is to copy good design - forget all about creativity or self expression, they come later, if ever.


----------



## CStanford

Jacob said:


> Well yes and something made with the techniques of Sellers or Cosman is likely to be well made but things made _in the style of Krenov _often turn out not too good on either front!
> I quite like some of Krenov's bits and bobs but they never wildly excited me.
> PS as Adam says above; copy.
> First rule of good design is to copy good design - forget all about creativity or self expression, they come later, if ever.



Well said. I've yet to see an in the style of piece that even came close.

On a related note, I think one could probably count on the fingers of one hand the makers who were able to really integrate exposed joinery as crucial to the design and not simply a statement that the piece was well made -- more or less "here, look for yourself." It may be ugly, but it's built like a tank. This stuff almost always looks good to other woodworkers, or at least they're polite enough to say it does.

The carcase joints of a Krenov cabinet-on-stand are simply not stressed in any meaningful way. Dovetails are complete overkill except where they truly lent something to the final appearance of the piece. Seems like a read somewhere that he expressed that he'd wished he'd left them off more often than he did. I couldn't swear to it though. I'd need to find the quote.


----------



## Devmeister

Interesting. In self reflection, the work done at commercial shops had the design done when we started. In my own personal work, I have spent my time doing more reproduction work than new ideas.

A shaker chest of drawers can be adapted to fit a need but the design is still shaker. The toolchests I made were heavily influenced by Gerstners design because they work. The patterns I just finished for a new shaper fence are based on old photographs of the shaper. Nothing new.

I think it’s nice to maybe take some time and design a piece on your own. Design something in the absence of joinery skills and see what you come with.


----------



## Jameshow

Devmeister said:


> Interesting. In self reflection, the work done at commercial shops had the design done when we started. In my own personal work, I have spent my time doing more reproduction work than new ideas.
> 
> A shaker chest of drawers can be adapted to fit a need but the design is still shaker. The toolchests I made were heavily influenced by Gerstners design because they work. The patterns I just finished for a new shaper fence are based on old photographs of the shaper. Nothing new.
> 
> I think it’s nice to maybe take some time and design a piece on your own. Design something in the absence of joinery skills and see what you come with.


Great just want I want to build my other Son thanks for the inspiration!


----------



## D_W

furnace said:


> I think many amateurs (I am one) are taken with the desire to make things, and relish the challenges of the joinery that enable them - the design is often a means to an end. I find the technical aspect more intuitive and struggle with design, hence looking at pleasing pieces is as important to me as studying techniques for well fitting joints.
> It's worth noting that the things I have made for people have been liked for how they look and very little of that is due to the difficulty, or otherwise, of the joinery.
> 
> Note to self: Get better at designing.



your note to self is mine, too - what are general design cues, and then being willing to accept once you make specific items, there is another layer there. 

I think that's also what people struggle with almost across the board unless they were born able to see and draw what they see and still be willing to do iterations. 

I'll show something I find useful from a design sense. Most things have to have straight lines somewhere (this is a guitar example, though). Hamer made guitars in the early 1980s, and by most accounts, they are better than what gibson was making at the time. 

Here is a hamer guitar from that period, and its' worth a little less than a comparable gibson now, despite the quality from gibson in 1980 not exactly being top shelf. 





The black arrows aren't exactly great labeling attempts, but they point at two toxic design items. The heel of the guitar looks like a trapezoid in a sea of curves. wf is that? It's a no no. 

And when you look at the back of the guitar body , the lower bout is a bit tubby (the "belly") and the two horns aren't that inspiring, but there is a toxic design error across the back the double cutaway is curves meeting a flat line that goes a great distance across the body.

Mixing curves and straight lines in a single element is unnatural looking. There may be instances where it works, but there are few of those that I can think of. The neck line itself along the sides is straight, but it's a completely different element, so it is primarily straight. 

Now, a guitar designed 30 years prior somehow eluded those (gibson spent money for designers). 






Notice how the curves on the body are curves - the cutaway is curved, and the only flat part is right where the neck heel meets the body (this is avoidable, but it's OK - on higher end makers like collings, they don't even abide by that, rather they make the heel fit the shape of the body instead, but collings is a better maker than gibson and their guitars are more expensive). 

This is one little thing that I learned early on twice in tool handles and tool eyes. I couldn't tell why they looked bad, just that they didn't look right to me and someone who is a superb designer pointed out "that's either a curve or a straight line - not both - pick one". 

In well established things (like better makes of wooden planes), the handle and the eyes are like that. more natural looking. Sometimes it seems inconvenient to incorporate the continuity of curves, but it makes a huge difference if you're not looking to take risks.


----------



## Devmeister

Wow! I see what your saying but never understood it. Thanks! Would you do us a favor and see if the Veritas planes have this issue? It would be curious if my issue with modern tool design could actually have an explanation.


----------



## D_W

hah...pick one Notice how the stanley planes actually have nice flowing lines and the handles on the earlier ones are artful. Even though things were made industrially, they still looked nice. 

The line thing is just one little thing - I'll never have the design sense to make anything from scratch, and maybe not the desire to actually make a full original design with revisions until it's just right, but it's nice to be able to spot why things are the way they are. 

it'll torture you a little making things - I cut the belly back on the current les paul guitar attempt and I think it looks horrendous. If I don't point it out, it may only look "not quite right, or slightly different" than the original, but I'll make a template next time as the lower belly of the guitar in the carved top bout is something I can't see a way to improve..

.....but the gibson company paid professional designers, so maybe I should expect that. I'm sure they didn't just draw one and say "great, let's go to the bar".


----------



## D_W

https://assets.leevalley.com/Size4/10101/05P2501-veritas-low-angle-smooth-plane-a2-f-0067.jpg



find all of the straight lines not separated from curves. There are a lot! This could've been a nice looking plane without much or any complexity in terms of manufacture.

I actually like Rob Lee and find them pretty wonderful ethically, but the plane is ugly and it wouldn't have to be. It may attract people who like ugly because it removes the burden of having to look nice (as in, the engineer type -i'm an applied mathematician, btw, so engineers can relax - who thinks any design ideas beyond functional are stupid - that's the type who will jump in and say "so what, if it's not functional, it doesn't matter").


----------



## Devmeister

Years ago Jim Kingshot pointed out an updated record plane as ugly. A plastic handle on a 044 as I recall.it was awful compared to the older o44.

I have always considered the Veritas planes well made but something just twisted my bloomers wrong. I couldn’t put a finger on it.

Many of the newer infill planes also have this awkward feeling.

what is your take on the bedrock or LN design where the plane body gets cut flat? The plane looks great but that is two curves separated by a flat line.

The A1 smoother has a ton of intersecting radi but has a single straight line leading into its tail.

In doing the pattern work for the Wadkin PK quadtants I did the initial work in autocad. While function dictated straight lines, there are many radi. Even the protractor was back flared into the body with at least two secondary radi.


----------



## Devmeister

This is a classic example of a Wadkin PK. What is your design opinion on this example?


----------



## paulrbarnard

Devmeister said:


> This is a classic example of a Wadkin PK. What is your design opinion on this example?


Doesn’t look very comfortable to sleep on so a pretty poor bed design. Also when seating people for dinner the rather poor top overhang will result in people hitting their knees on the pedestal. All in all a pretty poor furniture design.


----------



## Kaizen123

Thought this was quite funny.









Такому в школе не научат.Прочное столярное соединение #shorts #стройхак #tooltips







youtube.com


----------



## Adam W.

Kaizen123 said:


> Thought this was quite funny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Такому в школе не научат.Прочное столярное соединение #shorts #стройхак #tooltips
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> youtube.com


Them's foxtail wedges. 

It's a joinery thing.


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Devmeister said:


> Wow! I see what your saying but never understood it. Thanks! Would you do us a favor and see if the Veritas planes have this issue? It would be curious if my issue with modern tool design could actually have an explanation.



It is no secret for many of the fori that I have worked with Lee Valley/Veritas road testing planes, chisels and saws, as well as aiding with R&D for the past decade and a half. As David mentions, Rob Lee (a good friend of mine) and Company are the very best bunch in regard to attitude, ethics and desire to see hand tools survive. Design-wise, they are either love it or hate it - the designs are just so different to Stanley, that they will either jar the eye or excite it. One reason for this is Rob's desire to not step on the toes of other companies and makers and impact on their designs and sales.

The handsaws are so different from the brass-traditional with their moulded, resin-impregnated backs. However, they are superb tools ... at half the price. Personally, I want the brass back, but ...

The hand planes are a mixed bag in terms of aesthetics. There are a few which are pure art, such as the block planes ..






Review: Back to Tool Reviews

and this wonderful Jack Rabbet Plane ...






Review: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasJackRabbetPlane.html

A funny story: several years ago, members of the Veritas team were touring Australia and came to Perth. They spent a day at my home, BBQ-ing and drinking beers ... and in my workshop. I showed them a plane I owned, and they scratched and scratched their heads. They knew it was a Veritas ... "but I cannot remember us building it .. was it a prototype?", they asked as they snapped many photos.











"No", I said, "It lives inside one of your current planes" ....






(Obviously, I had re-modelled it). Now the original BU Smoother is butt ugly, in my opinion. But, man, what a wonderful performer!

The new-ish Custom planes are excellent performers - as good as they get in planing, but I am not a fan or Norris adjusters. #4 and #7 ...






Review (this is the best I have written. Read it!): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes1.html

The Combination Plane is really terrific!






Dados: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCombinationPlane-dados.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## JobandKnock

I think the NX60 block is rather nice, but if I bought one 'er indoors might take me off at the knees!. Just don't tell Jacob the price!


----------



## Jacob

JobandKnock said:


> I think the NX60 block is rather nice, but if I bought one 'er indoors might take me off at the knees!. Just don't tell Jacob the price!


Well it's another world! Probably more than my whole collection cost.
Not sure what they are for exactly - all the pictures here Veritas NX60 Premium Block Plane show them doing jobs which would be much easier with a #4 or #3 and quite possible with a #5 1/2 if that was all you had on hand.
I use a Stanley 220 for preference, when a block plane is really needed.


----------



## JobandKnock

Jacob said:


> Not sure what they are for exactly


It's obvious, surely? You have them on a shelf, nicely polished, to impress your woodworking mates when they pop round 

BTW how on earth do you hold a #3? Too small for my hands and always feel very uncomfortable


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

JobandKnock said:


> ....BTW how on earth do you hold a #3? Too small for my hands and always feel very uncomfortable



A #3 is my preference in size for smoothing, and I have large hands.

I have two #3s. One is a Stanley that was my late FILs ...







No problem holding this. Fitted with a vintage Clifton iron (from the days of hammer prep).

The other is a LN, which I modified with #4 handles (the LN #3 handles are smaller) ...






Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## JobandKnock

Just don't find them comfortable, despite having had a #3 since my starting days (last of the wooden handled British ones). I'm happier with a #4 or a block plane TBH. #2s are worse for me - bought one, a Sargent VBM, hated it, sold it. Never been near a #1


----------



## D_W

two fingers in the plane - index and pinkie finger out (beware of pinkie over the side draping down into boards, though - ouch). 

My hands are only about 3 1/2" - 3 5/8" wide at the knuckles, though, so I can use just about anything. But even with smaller hands - less grip rather than more, more push and rotate as part of the push (hand on hump of the handle and web up in the top notch).


----------



## D_W

Devmeister said:


> Years ago Jim Kingshot pointed out an updated record plane as ugly. A plastic handle on a 044 as I recall.it was awful compared to the older o44.
> 
> I have always considered the Veritas planes well made but something just twisted my bloomers wrong. I couldn’t put a finger on it.
> 
> Many of the newer infill planes also have this awkward feeling.
> 
> what is your take on the bedrock or LN design where the plane body gets cut flat? The plane looks great but that is two curves separated by a flat line.
> 
> The A1 smoother has a ton of intersecting radi but has a single straight line leading into its tail.
> 
> In doing the pattern work for the Wadkin PK quadtants I did the initial work in autocad. While function dictated straight lines, there are many radi. Even the protractor was back flared into the body with at least two secondary radi.



I think the bailey look is better than bedrock - but at least the bedrock is committed to the division of the two curved bits and the flat part (they terminate in a crisp junction). I also think the round sided bedrock planes look better, but thanks to the scarcity of people willing to pay 10% more for a bedrock, people see the flat sides as "money" so to them it's a better look. 

As far as the machine goes, my knowledge of design is only simple little things. Way too much there for me to have much thought - though I think the older cast machines look nice, and when you look older yet (like really old cast bandsaws), it's apparent that someone thought pretty hard about making the castings look nice to imply the quality of the machine (both in general lines and detail).


----------



## D_W

(as far as LN goes, I think that was asked - I think the original bedrocks are more attractive - the plain lever caps on the LN planes and the flat slab adjuster wheel are missing the mark compared to stanley versions. Like LV, though, they're a good company. Their designs are far more attractive to me and I'm sure the majority simply because they mostly copied established designs).


----------



## D_W

One more thing I never liked the look of in LN planes (though I do like the overall general look, and side profile, they look a little better than the original bedrocks as the termination of the sides into the flat top are absolutely crisp (the elements are separated well the more crisp the dividing spot). 









Lie-Nielsen, WoodRiver and Stanley Planes - FineWoodworking


Woodcraft, the Parkersburg, West Virginia company that sells woodworking tools by mail-order and through a national network of retail stores, recently introduced a new line of WoodRiver planes. Made in China, some people think the WoodRiver planes look too much like those built by Lie-Nielsen...




www.finewoodworking.com





The square-ish slots in the frog. I'd imagine that has something to do with casting or machining. The slots in a stanley look like church windows, no clue why the difference. 

Does any of Lie Nielsen's customer base care about any of this? I doubt it. I've heard one other single person mention the slab industrial-supply looking wheel on the LN planes. I think the whole issue of making a nice segmented knurl or a stamped wheel with crisp lettering in it is beyond them, though. It's not important and the extra cost isn't something most of their customers would have a clue about. 

(and yes, to the comment above - the old infills are all over the place. I've got an A13 panel plane (not a common plane). It is a little bland, but a little less so than the smoother version - also have one of those. The real sin of the panel plane is it's gentleman's weight - almost 9 pounds at 15 1/2 inches long and no professional user would tolerate it for long - but forums are filled with people who assert the weight is an advantage and "they're a big guy who likes a heavy plane"....(and they plane something 4 minutes per month)). 

The style of the norris 2, some of the mathieson coffin infills and handled curved side infills, etc, just wonderful. They are also nice users if you can find them in good shape, and attractive as long as the handle and front bun haven't been cracked by dropping).


----------



## Spectric

Jacob said:


> Actually the only thing about "systainers" that irks me is the name and the hint of daft gadgetry.


Is that gadgetry the green twist knob that likes to come off, it is really cheap and nasty. It also shows how competition can control prices because the green / off white boxes are about the same price as everyone elses boxes even though the inserts are made for a given tool and festool is not milking it.

Yes having tools in boxes will make site work easier, but I would still prefer a decent "mate" that can do all the lugging but what is odd is when you see you tube videos and the guy has wall to wall festool boxes, ok it is neat and tidy but having to keep getting the right box out must be a real pain unless it is ordamental and or he is one of those posers or influencer types.


----------



## D_W

Spectric said:


> Is that gadgetry the green twist knob that likes to come off, it is really cheap and nasty. It also shows how competition can control prices because the green / off white boxes are about the same price as everyone elses boxes even though the inserts are made for a given tool and festool is not milking it.
> 
> Yes having tools in boxes will make site work easier, but I would still prefer a decent "mate" that can do all the lugging but what is odd is when you see you tube videos and the guy has wall to wall festool boxes, ok it is neat and tidy but having to keep getting the right box out must be a real pain unless it is ordamental and or he is one of those posers or influencer types.



My lazy bone sees the same thing as you're describing. The same is true of hand tools stacked in racks where you have to move other tools to get them and there is nary a stray tool out. There are a few people who will work like that (one tool out at a time), but I can't imagine building anything complicated and doing that. Lifting "systainers" off of other "systainers" in a static shop to get to a tool -no thanks. I guess it's kind of like a wall of marshall amplifiers behind a band, though - looks great to a new viewer (I think most modern concerts run direct, so when that wall is present - it's a dummy - just like the presenters with 40 systainers stacked tight).


----------



## JobandKnock

Spectric said:


> ... to keep getting the right box out must be a real pain unless it is ordamental and or he is one of those posers or influencer types.


That describes at least some of the people I know who own Festools (and almost everyone I know who owns Mafells). The rest of us are just OCD! 

The ones who worry me slightly more are the guys who have their van fitted out with front to back Vantainers (matching fitted racking). There is something seriously creepy about that (only saying it because I haven't got one - yet)

If you have enough Systainers you can build a couple of stacks, plonk a couple of scaff boards on top - and you have a great tea bench

Realistically they are a site accessory which is useful for transporting and protecting your tools atr start and end of day, and in the van. Not really much use in a shop. Festool did at one time offer tools in cartons at a lower price, Don't know if they still do


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

What saddens me is when I see offered for sale a hand tool (could be power, but it is the hand tools especially) where the advert runs something like "Original packaging - never opened" or "unused" ... and the tool is several years old.

Many, it seems, purchase premium tools and set them aside to use when they retire. And never get to use them ... either because they lose interest in the new hobby, or because they shuffle off the mortal coil before they get the chance.

I have purchased some very nice tools from deceased estates with a significant discount, because the family just want to get rid of the tools. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## jcassidy

Everyone stop the bus. 

If only I had this, my dovetails would be perfectly effortless every time. 
Bridge City Tool Works Multi Tool MT-1

It costs a bomb so it must be true?


----------



## paulrbarnard

jcassidy said:


> Everyone stop the bus.
> 
> If only I had this, my dovetails would be perfectly effortless every time.
> Bridge City Tool Works Multi Tool MT-1
> 
> It costs a bomb so it must be true?


Unused. Says it all really


----------



## D_W

jcassidy said:


> Everyone stop the bus.
> 
> If only I had this, my dovetails would be perfectly effortless every time.
> Bridge City Tool Works Multi Tool MT-1
> 
> It costs a bomb so it must be true?



Bridge city tools are kind of an escapist thing. I'm sure some use them, though it seems that those that are used are versions of tools that aren't unusual (squares, japanese saws, etc.). The rest is a combination of something for something (vs. nothing), as "this is something that will do a job that I fear in exchange for something else - a lot of money". 

On a forum in the US, someone's spouse died (not a forum member) and one of the forum members purchased estates and distributed the tools for profit. He said the guy had one of everything from BC from the start (years ago before it was just harvey tools distributed for double the price in the US) - unused, and then one other copy that he used. 

The fact that all of them were dumped to a dealer in a lot lets you know that they were sold for a song - typical here for large lot offers are something like 20% of individual value - it's a pain to unload hundreds of individual things and nobody else really wants the lot. 

There are other escapist tools, and if someone just gets tons of satisfaction buying tools they never use but imagining they could, it's their business and not mine. It's not only tools, of course - one of the easiest guitars to buy in perfect condition is collings. They're played by a few people and curated by most. I've had 8 - when I notice I'm curating them or don't have a plan to build a version of one in the future (or got what I want out of them), then I sell. I've literally come across one desirable guitar that had any substantial dinging/marking on it. The rest were perfect and one of the reasons I sold them was because the first nick you get in one is several hundred dollars. The last one that I got (and have now) was one that someone else nicked.


----------



## Jacob

paulrbarnard said:


> Unused. Says it all really


Unused, probably because really difficult to use, especially if you are trying to use several angles on the one job. In other words - expensive gadget to sell to geeks who know no better
Much easier with a handful - I've got 4 or 5 sliding bevels and about a dozen marking gauges, just the ordinary beech type. Often a good idea to have them ready, set unaltered through the whole job, in case of revisions/omissions etc


----------



## Fred48

_Sorry for the delay in posting photographs of my dovetail templates. Moving house is rather busy.

The inspiration for what I call my ‘dovetail square’ came from attending a dovetailing course with David Charlesworth over 20 years ago. 

On the course, we used the bandsaw to cut the ‘tails’. Having transferred the shape of the ‘tails’ onto the ‘pins’ components, we then used a metal template that David designed, with a knife to mark the vertical lines (see below)

Here is a front view of my ‘dovetail square’






A rearview of my 'dovetail square’






A view from the bottom





What part of the dovetail joint do I use the ‘dovetail square’ for?

Marking the lines as illustrated below for the tails 





And the vertical lines on the ‘pin’ components





At some point, I decided I wanted to make small boxes with miniature dovetails using hand tools. 

To enable me to do that I needed to make a template to mark the ‘slope of the tails’. 

Various views of the template.




















_

Why is there a rebate at the side of the steel rule?

To allow a clear view of the knife line on the end grain when marking a knife line on the adjacent surface.


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## TRITON

Jacob said:


> Did they use them in the good old days? Do they turn up in old tool collections or catalogues?


Just because they havent been seen isnt an indication that cabinet makers of the past didn't fashion something themselves to use as a guide for accurate repeatability of their cuts. Given what we do is it too far a stretch of the imagination that they didn't do it also.

A small dovetail guide made of a scrap of wood would be easy to construct


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## Jacob

TRITON said:


> Just because they havent been seen isnt an indication that cabinet makers of the past didn't fashion something themselves to use as a guide for accurate repeatability of their cuts. Given what we do is it too far a stretch of the imagination that they didn't do it also.
> 
> A small dovetail guide made of a scrap of wood would be easy to construct


Well yes and there must have been many purpose made aids which get passed by unidentified and are forgotten. I do it often; make a little guide or whatever then a year later scratch my head wondering what it was for.
But DTs were big business with thousands being cut regularly. Guides are conspicuous by their absence!
Obvious why; with practice "accurate repeatability' is possible by eye, and even if not the sliding bevel makes a better tool for the job.


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## TRITON

First dovetailing machine was patented in about 1833. It seems odd to surmise that everything prior to that was by eye. Clearly inroads were being made and thoughts of a accurate system were being conceived long before it actually got to the design phase.

I mean, how far do we want to go back :? 1833 is pretty far back to say cabinet makers of the early nineteenth century were already moving away from handcut into mass production.
I think its been noted that the first handcut dovetails in furniture were about the mid 18th century
This appear to be less than a hundred years. Clearly they were making repeatable joints during that time for them to eventually arrive at a machine to do it for them.


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## Jacob

TRITON said:


> First dovetailing machine was patented in about 1833. It seems odd to surmise that everything prior to that was by eye.


By eye, with/without dividers, sliding bevels etc. Not by machine - they hadn't been invented


> Clearly inroads were being made and thoughts of a accurate system were being conceived long before it actually got to the design phase.
> 
> I mean, how far do we want to go back :? 1833 is pretty far back to say cabinet makers of the early nineteenth century were already moving away from handcut into mass production.
> I think its been noted that the first handcut dovetails in furniture were about the mid 18th century
> This appear to be less than a hundred years. Clearly they were making repeatable joints during that time for them to eventually arrive at a machine to do it for them.


We are talking about hand cut DTs. 
The first DTs would be prehistoric - it's a simple and highly functional joint, not a recent 18C discovery!


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## TRITON

Jacob said:


> By eye, with/without dividers, sliding bevels etc. Not by machine - they hadn't been invented
> We are talking about hand cut DTs.
> The first DTs would be prehistoric - it's a simple and highly functional joint, not a recent 18C discovery!


......awaits proof.


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## Jacob

TRITON said:


> ......awaits proof.











Dovetail joint - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




.


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## TRITON

Thats masonry Jacob. You need to show the evidence in cabinet making.


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## Jacob

TRITON said:


> Thats masonry Jacob. You need to show the evidence in cabinet making.


I don't "need to show" anything, it's common knowledge.
Here's a few odds and ends.




__





medieval dovetail joints - Google Search






www.google.com


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## Jacob

Jacob said:


> I don't "need to show" anything, it's common knowledge.
> Here's a few odds and ends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> medieval dovetail joints - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


What would be surprising would be to find that they didn't arrive until the 18C. DT is a very simple and extremely useful "joiner's" joint.


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## Droogs

@TRITON There are plenty of examples of items made as far back as the 3rd Dynasty in ancient Egypt that are wood and have dovetails. In fact Irving Finkel one of the curators at the Natural History Museum has shown a games box for the "Royal Game of Ur" played by the Sumerian from around 6K BCE, which has dovetails


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## Jacob

Droogs said:


> @TRITON There are plenty of examples of items made as far back as the 3rd Dynasty in ancient Egypt that are wood and have dovetails. In fact Irving Finkel one of the curators at the Natural History Museum has shown a games box for the "Royal Game of Ur" played by the Sumerian from around 6K BCE, which has dovetails


I bet there are stone age examples with crude DTs holding slate flags together.


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## thetyreman

yeah didn't the druids use dovetails at stone henge?


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## Jacob

thetyreman said:


> yeah didn't the druids use dovetails at stone henge?


Yebbut one or two came apart.


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## Droogs

M&T


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## Sgian Dubh

TRITON said:


> Thats masonry Jacob. You need to show the evidence in cabinet making.


This is shocking, because twice on the same day I've found myself in agreement with Jacob. If I'm not careful I could find myself in a mutually admiring tryst with the man, which just isn't on.

He is correct, dovetails in wooden artefacts have been around for millennia. I can't quickly find many pictorial example of Egyptian dovetails via Aunty Google, but here's a link to one. Here's another link. My hazy recollection is that Egyptian dovetails tended to favour wide pins and slender tails, the reverse of contemporary preferences. Slainte.


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## doctor Bob

I'm confused, which are the oldest dovetails, the ones from ancient Egypt or the ones Jacob did in his youth?


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## Jacob

Sgian Dubh said:


> This is shocking, because twice on the same day I've found myself in agreement with Jacob. If I'm not careful I could find myself in a mutually admiring tryst with the man, which just isn't on.
> .....


No you'd have to learn a sense of humour first! Less "arch", more wit.  
I googled "sarcastic scotsman" and it brings up pages, it's obviously a phenomenon!


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## Droogs

☝really could be one of my uncles


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## TRITON

Sgian Dubh said:


> This is shocking, because twice on the same day I've found myself in agreement with Jacob. If I'm not careful I could find myself in a mutually admiring tryst with the man, which just isn't on.
> 
> He is correct, dovetails in wooden artefacts have been around for millennia. I can't quickly find many pictorial example of Egyptian dovetails via Aunty Google, but here's a link to one. Here's another link. My hazy recollection is that Egyptian dovetails tended to favour wide pins and slender tails, the reverse of contemporary preferences. Slainte.


I know he's correct. It's a little troll by myself, with some good natured feeling behind it. Once you get absorbed enough into the subject to toddle off and do college on this, you research these thing. So im well aware of the origins.

But you know Jacob, he loves to get his teeth into such things and nip off for some intensive googling to prove himself right. And it keeps him busy


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## Jacob

TRITON said:


> ......
> 
> But you know Jacob, he loves to get his teeth into such things and nip off for some intensive googling to prove himself right. And it keeps him busy


True I do like a bit of intensive googling, not "to prove myself right" but to find out the facts! Everybody should try it!
Quite happy to be proved wrong, it does happen; was it 2005 perhaps? Can't remember the details!


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## Adam W.

Don't let facts stand in the way of a good myth.


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## Sgian Dubh

Jacob said:


> No you'd have to learn a sense of humour first! Less "arch", more wit.


Ah! The first signs of admiration fulsomely demonstrated. I'll be floating on a cloud of exultant joy for the whole of today. Now, where is my 'humour' switch, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## TRITON

Jacob said:


> True I do like a bit of intensive googling, not "to prove myself right" but to find out the facts! Everybody should try it!
> Quite happy to be proved wrong, it does happen; was it 2005 perhaps? Can't remember the details!


That wasnt meant in any negative way J, more tongue in cheek.


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## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> I'm confused, which are the oldest dovetails, the ones from ancient Egypt or the ones Jacob did in his youth?


It's a long story. I seem to remember something about a mess of potage.


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