# Fastest way to flatten chisesl I've found



## Anonymous (2 Mar 2008)

Over the years, I've tried loads of ways, scary-sharp (Wet ' n' Dry), oil stones, water stones, DMT stones, powered flat platten machine.

The powered one was easiest and the course DMT quickest

Until now


I had an order with Axminster that was below minimum for free postage, so chucked one in to get to over £45

First attempt yesterday and I am over the moon!! Not only does it flatten MUCH faster than any of the other methods I have tried, it is actually more accurate with the whole of my chisel dead flat in a couple of minutes.

The only caveat is that despite the claims, the chisel does not get polished to a mirror - not sure that I care about this one jot though as the important thing is flatness (finer scratches do mean better edge). However, I ran it over my Norton stone for 20 seconds and now it is flat and has a mirror surface.


Worth every penny

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Harima-Lapping-Kit-20855.htm


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2008)

Tony - as you know, I was recently playing around with this sort of thing and was using 6mm float glass with various grades of silicon carbide w/d paper glued on. I had good results with this method and it was fairly quick to do. What worries me with the lapping plate is that after some time the carborundum paste _may _ wear the plate into a hollow which is undesirable for flattening the backs of chisel and plane blades. With the scary sharp method the plate material is never touched so when the paper ceases to cut it's just replaced with a new bit, or replaced with a finer grade - Rob


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## NeilO (2 Mar 2008)

Funnily enough Tony I did exactly the same as you, adding it to get the free delivery (tightass B*****ds we are, or what :lol: )
the grit range was a little disappointing being more aimed at grinding rather than lapping (or at least as I would describe lapping ie , the finishing of a tooled edge)
grit sizes were 90, 120, 150, 180 and 240 in mine , same as yours Tony??
would have prefered something like 150, 180, 240, 400, 600..
but the price isnt bad ,as is the lapping package in itself, works well for what is is, even if the grit sizing is a little bit on the coarse side..
but for £15.00 ish you cant really go wrong , and added to some descent diamond stones you would pretty much have everything you need..

Rob, I think the plate is pretty much indistructable,as the muppet I am , whist hanging a 20 oz hammer missed the hook , and crash , you guessed it dropped slap bang square on my new lapping plate, you can guess the air went a little blue , and cursed myself for being such a tw*t.... but checked the plate for flatness and was perfect even after its trauma, so all in all, I think it may take some lapping before its truley fubar.. :lol: , although I would guess i will need replacing sometime in my 60`s.. :shock:

having had a second look , the grit sizes are 90, 120, 180, 240 and 400...


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2008)

I suppose it all depends on just how hard the surface of the plate is. If it's been case hardened, in which event it's just about as hard as it's going to get then I would think it would be OK...t'would be interesting to see just how it wears over a period of time with reasonable use. Cost wise, £15 sounds good, scary sharp is cheaper, 'specially if you buy's your w/d grits of Salisbury market  ...piece of glass cost me about £1 iIrc - Rob


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## NeilO (2 Mar 2008)

Rob, using "your" glass and w/d method could I flatten my plane soles on it...I take it I would need a peice of glass at least a couple of ft in length?

Stanleys No3, 4, 41/2, 5, 51/2, and 6....Oops, I think I have finally hit THAT slope. :lol: :lol:


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## Joe (2 Mar 2008)

In the interests of preserving the plate surface, might it be an idea to use some self-adhesive plastic, like the stuff that comes with the Veritas stone pond?


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## Anonymous (2 Mar 2008)

woodbloke":14wg123z said:


> What worries me with the lapping plate is that after some time the carborundum paste _may _ wear the plate into a hollow which is undesirable for flattening the backs of chisel and plane blades.



Absolutely Rob. This did concern me, however, the plate is prepared on both sides and quite long. Unless one has an awful lot of chisles and plane irons to flatten I don't see it as a problem - one only flattens them once after all and the total cost of £14 is not particulalry high


I think the palte is hardeend (it has a sticker claiming it is made in japapn and they are welll known for producing hard steels, and the surface is prepared ready to hold the grit in place)


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## Anonymous (2 Mar 2008)

NeilO":3850qgsq said:


> grit sizes were 90, 120, 150, 180 and 240 in mine , same as yours Tony??



Same as yours Neil, but with 400 grit as well - still does not 'polish' the back, but I am chuffed to bits with the system


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2008)

NeilO":1o09cu0s said:


> Rob, using "your" glass and w/d method could I flatten my plane soles on it...I take it I would need a peice of glass at least a couple of ft in length?
> 
> Stanleys No3, 4, 41/2, 5, 51/2, and 6....Oops, I think I have finally hit THAT slope. :lol: :lol:



Neil - this is a jig I made recently that works on the 'scary sharp' principle







to lap plane soles. It's 1000mm long and the glass is 10mm float glass, the idea being that you can trap sandpaper (aluminium oxide off a roll) under the two side pieces so that it stays flat and doesn't ruck up. This is a pretty big jig and was quite expensive to make, but if you were to shorten down a fraction and use 6mm float glass instead of 10 it would work just as well...I used 10mm just because it was over such a big distance but I made an earlier one which was shorter using 6mm glass - Rob


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## NeilO (2 Mar 2008)

Cheers for that, Rob..
looking at your pic I`m guessing the glass is about 6" (150mm) wide with a "runway" of 4" (100mm) , would that be about right for planes??


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2008)

Yup - that's about it. Depending on the width of paper in use I trap roughly about 10-12mm under each side piece. I can't take credit for this jug as I saw it at the last Axminster show where it was being used to lap the soles of student planes from a college in Bucks if memory serves...I thought it was such a good idea that I went home and made one, one of the best things I saw at the show that day - Rob


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## bugbear (3 Mar 2008)

Tony":16nms4q2 said:


> woodbloke":16nms4q2 said:
> 
> 
> > What worries me with the lapping plate is that after some time the carborundum paste _may _ wear the plate into a hollow which is undesirable for flattening the backs of chisel and plane blades.
> ...



Don't forget, in true lapping (as opposed to what some woodworker's do to flatten plane soles) it's the HARDER material that wears away.

BugBear


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## bugbear (3 Mar 2008)

woodbloke":zsmiwcsd said:


> Yup - that's about it. Depending on the width of paper in use I trap roughly about 10-12mm under each side piece. I can't take credit for this jug as I saw it at the last Axminster show where it was being used to lap the soles of student planes from a college in Bucks if memory serves...I thought it was such a good idea that I went home and made one, one of the best things I saw at the show that day - Rob



I saw that, and thought it awful. It's almost a worst case for generating convexity, as opposed to either "lapping" properly (see recent links to S&S) or printing and cutting using a reference surface, per my website.

BugBear


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## Philly (3 Mar 2008)

Gents
i have one of these and have been experimenting with it. The coarse grits break down REAL fast -might look into the coarse diamond pastes instead.

A thought on the lapping plate wearing - the plate is not hardened ( i used a file to remove a damaged edge) Isn't there some engineering principle with two metals rubbing against each other and the softer surface not wearing? Sorry - not my strong point but I'm sure I read that somewhere :roll: 
Cheers
Philly


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## woodbloke (3 Mar 2008)

The jig I made does work well, I've not had a plane go convex yet using this method - Rob


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## tnimble (3 Mar 2008)

Nice lookin Jig Woodbloke.

As per two surfaces the softer srface will wear the least as the very hard grot partials will be pushed into the surface of the softest surface. Therefore the particals do not rub anymore against that surface.


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## tnimble (3 Mar 2008)

bugbear":3jltshuz said:


> I saw that, and thought it awful. It's almost a worst case for generating convexity, as opposed to either "lapping" properly (see recent links to S&S) or printing and cutting using a reference surface, per my website.


I use an similar but less pretty ramp. However I have mine not dead flat but slightly concave (0.2mm over a length of 1.2 meter) This produces a near dead flat very slightly concave sole. Besides using the ramp I also mark and attack the surfaces with various files and scrapers.

This weekend I did a no 5C took about between 15 and 20 minutes to flatten sole and square the sides. The sole was already pretty flat, but the sides where off by around 0.8 and 0.5 mm.

I find using loose grit partials too messy. I recently began using alcohol/ethanol as a lubricant and to prevent glazing


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## Chris Knight (3 Mar 2008)

Philly":7hingf95 said:


> Isn't there some engineering principle with two metals rubbing against each other and the softer surface not wearing? Sorry - not my strong point but I'm sure I read that somewhere :roll:
> Cheers
> Philly



I am not sure how general it is but I was always warned not to run alloy gears with with steel ones as the latter would wear quickly. I think the idea is that particles of the harder material become embedded in the softer and these prevent it from wearing whilst at the sme time wearing away the harder.


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## TrimTheKing (4 Mar 2008)

woodbloke":2izlbbyd said:


> the idea being that you can trap sandpaper (aluminium oxide off a roll) under the two side pieces so that it stays flat and doesn't ruck up.



Hi Rob

What paper do you use on this (and where do you buy)? I am in the process of buiding something very similar myself and can only find 240grit on screwfix and machinemart. I would think I need something a bit finer too once I get close to flat?!?

Cheers

Mark


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## ike (4 Mar 2008)

> A thought on the lapping plate wearing - the plate is not hardened ( i used a file to remove a damaged edge) Isn't there some engineering principle with two metals rubbing against each other and the softer surface not wearing?



Absolutely - ever noticed how an engine crank journal wears more than the bearing shell. Because the abrading particles get embedded in the softer metal and stay there.


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## lurker (4 Mar 2008)

Trim,

Screw fix do wet n dry down to 1200

£2.80 for ten sheets


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## Harbo (4 Mar 2008)

I experimented a while ago lapping a plane sole using 80 grit on a 10mm thick acrylic sheet bedded on a flat piece of spare worktop.
It worked to some extent but not as fast as using an extra coarse DMT stone. Also the grit seemed to get everywhere!
My favourite method for smaller items is my range of DMT Duostones XC to Fine followed by Rutlands Diamond pastes (on supplied MDF boards) or a range of 600 to 1200 W/D papers.
Have not made Rob's jig yet, but last week fettled a friends old Stanley 5 using 100 W/D stuck on a sheet of glass - worked fine.

Rod


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## TrimTheKing (4 Mar 2008)

lurker":3nsvh4ae said:


> Trim,
> 
> Screw fix do wet n dry down to 1200
> 
> £2.80 for ten sheets



Thanks lurker, I am actually looking for a roll so that I can have a run the full length of the jig, but the rolls only seem to go down to about 240.

Trim

In fairness, after looking around it seems that rolls only appear to go as fine as 240. Is that fine enough for lapping a plane sole? Sounds a bit aggressive to me?

Would end to end sheets of wet'n'dry of a finer grade work if stuck down with spray mount?


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## woodbloke (4 Mar 2008)

TrimTheKing":2vgs716q said:


> woodbloke":2vgs716q said:
> 
> 
> > the idea being that you can trap sandpaper (aluminium oxide off a roll) under the two side pieces so that it stays flat and doesn't ruck up.
> ...



Mark - I orderd a set of abrasive papers from Axminster like these which worked well - Rob


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## TrimTheKing (5 Mar 2008)

woodbloke":1vu2lp1v said:


> Mark - I orderd a set of abrasive papers from Axminster like these which worked well - Rob



Fantastic, thanks Rob

Mark


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## David C (6 Mar 2008)

I find blunt 240 grit quite fine enough for,( NB edited the final polishing of) all larger planes, but follow this with a hard scrub, using Autosol metal polish & 0000 wire wool, then at least two coats of wax.

The first coat of wax seems to buff off the fine metal particles left by the metal polish.

Planes slide with very little friction after this treatment ~;-)#

David


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## alan wood (7 Mar 2008)

Hi Mark,
I use the same product as Woodbloke. I think the set up he has for flattening the bottom is superb. 

Cannot find my notes from the Dave C course but we used a very rough grade of abrasive initially to get the bottoms flat then sequentially finer grades. 

I bought Davids dvd on plane fettling, and I must admit I was quite surprised that it did explain how to actually flatten the plane bottom a most critical part of the fettling process. 

cheers
Alan


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## David C (7 Mar 2008)

I have not published a dvd on plane tuning/fettling yet.

"Plane sharpening" is exactly what it says on the box. Entirely plane blade prep and sharpening, with particular reference to a slightly cambered edge, and the ruler trick. It also covers ways of using waterstones which avoid or minimize the dreaded hollowing which takes place so quickly, and has ruined many blades.

For larger planes, say 5 and above, which are badly out of shape, I would start on no less than 60 grit, followed by 100, 150,and finally 240.

best wishes,
David


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## alan wood (7 Mar 2008)

David,
You say in the dvd words to the effect that flattening of the bottom is essential. Without doubt I was say it was critical. 

We dealt with this on your course, and i felt disappointed that it was not covered in the dvd. 

Do you not think that it should be in? 

In my view if that topic was covered it would have made the dvd excellent.

As you can see from the questions on the forum it needed covering. 

All the best

enjoy your writing

cheers

Alan


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## tnimble (7 Mar 2008)

You could easily fill two DVDs on tuning up bench planes, 1 DVD on block panes with probaly a bit time left for a few words on specialty block planes, 1 DVD on spoke planes including bench scrapers and 1 on combination planes and beading planes.

Trying to get tuning a bench plane and prepping and maintaining the blade on 1 DVD would do little good. It's already very nice and somewhat complementary the most important tuning of the chipbreaker is handled.


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## David C (8 Mar 2008)

Indeed, I had forgottent that the vital chipbreaker front edge tune up was included as well.

I am working on the editing of the plane tuning dvd and it takes a considerable time to explain and demonstrate all the steps. 

Sharpening and C/B prep is fundamental to all planes, and there are some which do not need much, if any other tuning, so it seemed sense to cover this first. 

best wishes,
David


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## Anonymous (8 Mar 2008)

tnimble":340zbviu said:


> You could easily fill two DVDs on tuning up bench planes,



Really? :lol: 

Having tuned a lot of planes over the years, i would strongly disagree. Rocket science it isn't!!

Tuning planes to work well is boring and tedious due to the repetitive metal removal, but that is all that makes it hard, the principles could be demonstrated and covered in more than adequate depth in 1/2 hour.

We are taking absolutely basic engineering principles here


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## David C (8 Mar 2008)

There is more to tuning a Bailey plane than just flattening the sole, though this is one of the most important jobs, which is likely to yield the greatest improvement.


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## alan wood (8 Mar 2008)

I agree with Tony on this issue. 

I am glad that there is a superb example thanks to 'Woodbloke' in this thread, for any beginner wishing to flatten the bottoms of a plane. 

cheers
Alan Wood


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## pam niedermayer (8 Mar 2008)

Tony":a6eyljb1 said:


> tnimble":a6eyljb1 said:
> 
> 
> > You could easily fill two DVDs on tuning up bench planes,
> ...



Have you actually made a video explaining/showing these processes? If not, you have no idea how long it takes nor how much video time. We all tend to underestimate the time and effort involved in someone else's work.

Pam


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## alan wood (9 Mar 2008)

Pam,
My point is simply this. To get a plane tuned up ready for fine cabinet making it requires all of the stuff that is covered in the dvd PLUS flattening the bottom of the plane using Woodblokes method shown in this thread. 

If you followed the dvd as it stands, you will still have to look for another 'product' to solve that fettling of the plane bottom. 

It's the same with the dvd Precision Preparation of chisels for Accurate joinery. If you saw the introduction with the beautifully made dovetails, you would think that the dvd would cover all aspects required to make dovetails. I was disappointed that it did not cover in detail how to remove the excess metal from the edges of the majority of chisels on the market. 

I think if you have a product out there on the market, like all 'producers' you should be open to honest feedback and then looking at improving your product. 

Just my ideas on how to improve. Hope this is of some use.

cheers

Alan


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## pam niedermayer (9 Mar 2008)

alan wood":10rnzhzj said:


> ...
> I think if you have a product out there on the market, like all 'producers' you should be open to honest feedback and then looking at improving your product....



OK, I agree, but there's no reason to suggest that what you want to add takes no time. In other words, ask for what you want, but don't make assumptions about someone's ability to do it, or how it should be done, etc.

Pam


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## Anonymous (9 Mar 2008)

David C":2hrdkkql said:


> There is more to tuning a Bailey plane than just flattening the sole, though this is one of the most important jobs, which is likely to yield the greatest improvement.



I didn't suggest otherwise as far as I can see!!

However, the sole, frog, mouth, chipbreaker and blade work are all very basic engineering tasks that are easy to do, particulalry if one has soe basic hand tool skills learned during woodworking. They are just a little laborious and most yield very minimal (if detectable at all) advantages unless the plane was particularly poor in one of those areas in the first place.

In my experience, a new chipbreaker (I like the 2-piece) or a little work on the exisitng one, a new blade (Hock, Clifton, LN or whatwver) and a flat sole will turn a turkey into a very nce tool.


This really isn't rocket science


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## alan wood (9 Mar 2008)

Hi Pam,
I believe the time issue is nothing to do with me as a person who has bought a product and feels disappointed that the dvd did not cover a critical part of the process, one that was covered on the course I and many other attended. 

If you are in the business of producing any product cover the critical parts. The cost of the dvd's including posting and packaging cost are not cheap, and not dealing with an issue that is critical, because of 'time' has got nothing to do with the person purchasing the product. As it stands the dvd is not suitable and needs improving. 

Honest and necessary feedback

cheers
Alan


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## Paul Kierstead (9 Mar 2008)

I think Alan, what David C is trying to tell you is that it _isn't_ a plane fettling DVD that you have (it is a sharpening DVD), so pointing out the omission of plane fettling items isn't really pointing out a flaw. It is like complaining that apples don't taste like oranges.

That said, a combo plane fettling/sharpening DVD is a good idea; it is really all part of the whole.


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## alan wood (9 Mar 2008)

Hi Paul,
I completely disagree. I've expressed my views, highlighted a topic that I believe should have been covered. Its my opinion. 

Just ideas to improve. 

cheers
Alan


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## pam niedermayer (9 Mar 2008)

alan wood":4ty59uxw said:


> As it stands the dvd is not suitable and needs improving.



I don't know why you consider the dvd unsuitable for not covering fettling. For crying out loud, Alan, it's titled: 

*Hand Tool Techniques Part 1: Plane Sharpening*

What part of that title don't you understand?

Pam


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## tnimble (9 Mar 2008)

Tony":2ri74pjs said:


> tnimble":2ri74pjs said:
> 
> 
> > You could easily fill two DVDs on tuning up bench planes,
> ...



I you'd call flattening a plane sole as tuning up a plane 1/2 hour could explain the most of it including filing the mouth. But tuning up a plane is more than only that, to sum up a few thing;

Sole: measuing flatness, surfacing concave on a plate/glass, surfacing convex on a plate/glass, filing, scraping, polishing without hollowing / rounding over.

Sides: measuring squareness, why square ness is not that importent, stabalising the sides aka removing concavity

Frog: Blade contact, seating the frog on the bed, frog pitch and roll, blade track, Y lever

Mouth: Burrs, mouth shape and shavings, filing the front of the mouth

Chip breaker: blade contact, front angle and shavings, releave behind arch, side burrs

Lever cap: Front edge chipbreaker contact, frontedge angle, pivot point

Tote and knob: Bed contact, mounting rods / srews


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## alan wood (10 Mar 2008)

Pam I think you are getting bogged down on the title of the dvd. 

I was disappointed the dvd did not cover the flattening of the plane sole for this reason. 

Approximate quotes from the introduction. 
Welcome, this video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane. (you seem to be getting fixed on the title of the dvd)


There are three absolutely fundamental things required for a plane. 

blade sharpening
front edge of the chip breaker 

and the third and most important is the condition of the flatness of the sole of the plane.
Discusses having to do a review on two planes, and they were 6th thou hollow in their length. etc etc and I proved that it is absolutely impossible to plane a straight edge. 

So having discussed the importance of the three fundamentals, and having said in the introduction, quote ‘Welcome, this video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane. 

I was therefore disappointed it was not covered. So forget the title of the dvd, go back to the introduction, listen to it again, see what David says. 

There is no way that this dvd delivers what was said in the first three minutes 

‘Welcome, this video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane’. 

Maybe David would like to comment!

cheers

Alan


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## pam niedermayer (10 Mar 2008)

alan wood":37n8v06m said:


> Pam I think you are getting bogged down on the title of the dvd.
> 
> I was disappointed the dvd did not cover the flattening of the plane sole for this reason....



Alan, I'm not bogged down in anything. I buy dvd's that cover the topics I need; and if it's not clear what's on the dvd, I call and ask before buying. I don't have this dvd, don't need it, hate metal bench planes, and instead make my own Japanese wooden planes. 

You're disappointed? OK, send it back and get your money returned. You made a simple mistake.

Oh, yes, and the title of this message topic is *Fastest way to flatten chisesl I've found*, which should tend to guide the more sensitive of us. I never read the plane fettling topics, so it would be considerate of you and Tony to start another topic to address this issue.

Pam


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## tnimble (10 Mar 2008)

alan would that not be very depending on what the 'new plane' is? A new stanley versus LN, clifton, LV versus Anderson, Philly?


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## alan wood (10 Mar 2008)

Pam,
So you have not even see or listened to the dvd. How about borrowing a copy listen to what David says, then post an opinion based on fact and give an objective view.

I must say I did question why you made these comments and now I know. You've not seen the dvd. 

How about David commenting. 


cheers
Alan


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## Harbo (10 Mar 2008)

Sorry Alan - I have the DVD and have to agree with Pam.

It is titled "Part 1 Plane Sharpening"
and on the box it prints the chapter topics-

Keeping your waterstones flat
Preparing the back of the your blade
The ruler trick
Honing the bevel
Preparing a curved blade
Resharpening a curved blade
Fettling the chip breaker
Assembly of the blade etc
Outtakes

It says nothing about lapping plane soles on the contents!!

David does mention it briefly in his intro but only to state that it is important - he does not say he is going to cover it!

It would have been nice if David had included it, as well as other aspects of plane fettling to make it an even better buy? 
But then the title would have been "Plane Sharpening and Fettling".
I think it's fair to ask David to bring out one on Fettling but a bit unfair to criticise him for something he has been quite open about?

As for Tony and "Rocket science" - well I agree, but as someone who has not had any proper training (apart from "O" level woodwork), I have had to rely on books, magazines, Forums, DVD's etc. to learn and improve my techniques. And I for one am very grateful for people like David who produce this sort of stuff. 
When I started woodworking as a hobby over 40 years ago (and my father before me) you bought a Stanley and apart from sharpening the iron you thought that was it. With experience and reading the stuff above you realise it's not! The great thing about the available information today is knowing what can be achieved and where to get help in going about it. Don't knock the authors!!

Rod


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## alan wood (10 Mar 2008)

Hi guys,
with regards to tnimbles question

On the course I attended there were four students. Cannot recall the chaps name but he had a LN and that required work on the sole, but only a small amount compared with the rest of us with old Bailey planes. 

I own two old Bailey planes and both of these required a major amount of work on the soles plus over the years still require an occasional bit of work on the sole to make it an efficient tool

I have two LN’s. 
One required a small amount of work on the sole and has not required any since, whilst the other has never required any work on the sole. 

I have recently purchased a Veritas and the plane worked straight out of the box. I also purchased a spare blade but unfortunately the back of the blade requires some amount of work to get it flat. 

I would happily purchase another LN or Veritas plane because from my personal experience they will require the least work over the years to keep them in tip top condition. 

Hi Rod,
Thanks for a pleasant reply. We obviously disagree. I totally agree the table of contents as per the back of the dvd. 

In one of my previous posting in this thread I have quoted Davids introduction. 

Do you think the product delivers what David said in his intoduction. I've forgotten the exact wording. But is certainly does not deliver what he says he is setting out to achieve. 

I would not have had a problem if he has stated that 'the third and most important' or whatever the wording was, BUT I'm not covering that in the dvd. 

I'm not spending time now looking at the rest of the dvd, but I would not be surprised if a beautiful shaving or two will be removed to show how all his work and made a plane work efficiently. But not unless the sole had been flattened. 

I think this topic has been covered now. 

cheers

Alan

Just missed the 'dont knock the author'. 
Honest to goodness feedback about a L-N product, not an aurhor


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## tnimble (11 Mar 2008)

Alan you must than agree that with the Veritas and that second Lie Nielsen plane the DVD would have been everything you need to get the best of of the veritas and LN?


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## Anonymous (11 Mar 2008)

Harbo":2a74xzxl said:


> As for Tony and "Rocket science" - well I agree, but as someone who has not had any proper training (apart from "O" level woodwork), I have had to rely on books, magazines, Forums, DVD's etc. to learn and improve my techniques. And I for one am very grateful for people like David who produce this sort of stuff.
> 
> Don't knock the authors!!
> 
> Rod



I just want to point out that my point was aimed at the assertion that it requires _several DVDs _to show how to 'tune' a plane. I completely disagree with this statement.

As for knocking the authors? I have every DVD David Charlesworth has produced and all three of his books. 
With the exception of the third book and the shooting board DVD, I have learnt something useful from all of them and each was well worth the money.

The same goes for Rob Cosman's DVDs and Chris Schwarz's


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## bugbear (11 Mar 2008)

Tony":29d69ok4 said:


> his statement.
> 
> As for knocking the authors? I have every DVD David Charlesworth has produced and all three of his books.
> With the exception of the third book and the shooting board DVD, I have learnt something useful from all of them and each was well worth the money.



Where you didn't learn anything, was it due to overlap with the other DC sources, you having prior knowledge from other (non DC) sources, or lack of actual content?

BugBear


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## Anonymous (11 Mar 2008)

bugbear":21xqym9p said:


> Tony":21xqym9p said:
> 
> 
> > his statement.
> ...



A good question BB

With the 3rd DC book, there was nothing I could see in it that was not already covered in the first 2. I would highly recommend 1 and 2.

With the shooting board DVD, if I am brutally honest, it is simply awful and has some pretty poor advice in it (such as making a shooting board that uses your bench top to run the plane on :shock: ). I was shocked when i saw it as I already owend 3 of David's DVDs which were very useful and from which I learnt a lot.


I had been using a shooting board for half a dozen years before seeing the DVD to be fair, but I still think it is a very poor effort.


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## gidon (11 Mar 2008)

Is DC's 3rd book a collection of articles from publications or is it written as a book? 
By the way DC isn't the first person to suggest a simple shooting board using a bench hook and your bench. It's not that outrageous although personally I'd prefer to have a dedicated shooting board. 
Cheers 
Gidon


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## alan wood (11 Mar 2008)

tnimble wrote

Alan you must than agree that with the Veritas and that second Lie Nielsen plane the DVD would have been everything you need to get the best of of the veritas and LN

In reply. I think it’s a fair question to ask, have you watch the dvd?

In the introduction to the dvd we hear something like this

*Welcome, this video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane*. 

So I am therefore expecting all matters to be dealt with that requires the purchaser of this LN product to deliver what was said in the introduction, and I really don’t think that is too much to expect really. 

It is a excellent and very clear and precise statement of intent. 

The introduction that goes on to explain the following. Not verbatim because I don’t think there is a need especially for people who own the dvd. 

There are *three *absolutely fundamental things required for a plane. 

1	blade sharpening
2	front edge of the chip breaker 
3	*and the third and most important is the condition of the flatness of the sole of the plane. *

David then discusses having to do a review on two planes, and they were *6th thou *hollow in their length. etc etc and that he proved that it is *absolutely **impossible **to plane a straight edge. *

From experience I have had to deal with the soles of my plane that are defective. 

So it is a clear as a whistle to me what the introduction is saying. 

We are talking about planes out there on the market that are defective in the soles or need ‘improving’ and I now going to deal with this critical issues that I have just mentioned. 

And quite clearly it doesn’t. 

*This video is designed to help you to get the best out of your new plane*.

So in answer to tnimble. 

a	If the sole of your plane does not require work to it ,you are lucky because the dvd does not cover it. 


b	If you are unfortunate enough to have bought one of the planes that David carried out a review on, that had * 6th thou* hollow in their length, then this dvd is not going to deal with it.

Some dvd’s that are sold over the internet allow you to have previews, and if you heard that introduction, I think it is reasonable to expect LN to cover the topics that they brought up otherwise what is the point of talking about it.

If a representative from LN does not wish to comment I don’t wish to spend any more time on this issue. 

I believe that I have clarified my initial comment about being disappointed that the ‘sole’ topic was not covered as per the introduction to the dvd.

*It certainly doesn’t 

quote ‘help you to get the best out of your new plane’ if the sole is 6th thou hollow.*

cheers

Alan.


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## David C (12 Mar 2008)

Fair cop guv.

*I forgot *to use some material to protect the bench top in the shooting board dvd, and had acquired thrush in my throat, in 95deg heat and 95% humidity, teaching large classes for 7 days straight, in Indiana.

However if you go to USA on tight schedule to do some work, not showing up is not an option.

I think the information in that DVD is as good as in others, it was designed to help beginners get good accurate results with shooting, and this it does. It was not aimed at highly experienced craftsmen. There is only so much to know about shooting........

best wishes,
David


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## alan wood (12 Mar 2008)

David Charlesworth said 
Fair cop guv.

So the next question is;- 

Do L-N have any plans to rectify the problem by recalling the product and replacing it with one that deals with quote

‘and the third and most important is the condition of the flatness of the sole of the plane’ 

cheers
Alan


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## tnimble (12 Mar 2008)

alan wood":x4c693gq said:


> In reply. I think it’s a fair question to ask, have you watch the dvd?


Yes, and liked it very much. It has speed up sharpening quite a bit and improved sharpening skill some bit. I had already a fair amount of experience and training in sharpening and a lot in engineering but little in woodwork hand tool usage. The general consensus was to use a vast array of expensive power tools for every task. Hand planes and things like shooting boards where mentioned, but as something tedious, inaccurate, less functional and of the past. So yes I can say I like all the DVDs and have learnt from all of them.



> ...
> So in answer to tnimble.
> 
> a	If the sole of your plane does not require work to it ,you are lucky because the dvd does not cover it.


Agreed



> b	If you are unfortunate enough to have bought one of the planes that David carried out a review on, that had * 6th thou* hollow in their length, then this dvd is not going to deal with it.


Although the DVD does not cover how the correct the problem it does help you to identify that your plane has a fundamental problem. Backed with this knowledge you can either purchase a good quality plane or search for information about how to correct the problem.


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## bugbear (12 Mar 2008)

alan wood":1hw0on1t said:


> David Charlesworth said
> Fair cop guv.
> 
> So the next question is;-
> ...



I doubt it; but if you want to do that, I've got lots of information:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/flatten.html

Most woodworkers aren't keen on this much metalwork.

BugBear


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## Philly (12 Mar 2008)

Alan
I've been following this thread and don't quite understand what your problem is. 
I have the DVD in question and popped it back in to refresh my memory. The DVD is quite clearly about plane sharpening. Your main gripe seems to be the first line that David says. As he is saying this the screen shows the following text.
" Portions filmed at an open house presentation at Lie-Nielsen Toolworks August 2003"
So obviously some of the dvd is taken from a much larger presentation.
Are you saying you feel short changed because of this first line, even though the DVD is clearly labelled as being about "Plane Sharpening"?
I also find it strange as you have stated that you have attended some of Mr C's courses (on the subject of tool tuning??) - so you have had one-on-one training on the kind of plane fettling you are complaining is missing in the above DVD.
Sounds to me like you have other reasons for your public moans - I suggest you take them up with Mr Charlesworth in a more appropriate way than a public forum.
Philly


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## alan wood (12 Mar 2008)

In reply to 
tnimble
I glad you received some benefit from the dvd. 

Bugbear
thanks for the link

Philly
If you have a problem with my opinion based on fact. Tough. 

As far as this being a personal matter with the presenter of the dvd. Well that takes the biscuit for the day. 

David agrees that this dvd sold by LN does not deliver what he said in the introduction and does not cover the ‘and the third and most important is the condition of the flatness of the sole of the plane’ 

If you don’t understand what I’m saying, I’m sure not wasting any more time explaining it again. 

cheers
Alan


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## Philly (12 Mar 2008)

alan wood":2hk72j5l said:


> Philly
> If you have a problem with my opinion based on fact. Tough.
> 
> As far as this being a personal matter with the presenter of the dvd. Well that takes the biscuit for the day.
> ...



Alan - so have you asked for a refund? 

This thread is entitled "Fastest way to flatten a chisel" and for some reason all you have done is attack David Charlesworth over one of his DVD's (which is not about flattening chisels!) for some pretty flaky reasons. 
David himself has replied thus - "I have not published a dvd on plane tuning/fettling yet.

"Plane sharpening" is exactly what it says on the box. Entirely plane blade prep and sharpening, with particular reference to a slightly cambered edge, and the ruler trick. It also covers ways of using waterstones which avoid or minimize the dreaded hollowing which takes place so quickly, and has ruined many blades."

So I ask - please return to the original topic. Your issue with the DVD needs to be dealt with directly - this is the final word.
Philly
(Mod Hat firmly in place)


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## alan wood (12 Mar 2008)

Philly
I just love discussions based on fact.

I not wasting time repeating my previous points, but your comments about the attack on David Charlesworth are not based on fact. 

My issue is with LN, its their product. You need to keep to the facts mate.

This is the final word. Good.

cheers

Alan


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## Paul Kierstead (12 Mar 2008)

alan wood":1tklurxz said:


> *It certainly doesn’t
> 
> quote ‘help you to get the best out of your new plane’ if the sole is 6th thou hollow.*



A few definitions of "help":
# give help or assistance; be of service; "Everyone helped out during the earthquake"; "Can you help me carry this table? ...
# be of use; "This will help to prevent accidents"
# improve the condition of; "These pills will help the patient"
# help oneself: abstain from doing; always used with a negative; "I can't help myself--I have to smoke"; "She could not help watching the sad spectacle"
# aid: the activity of contributing to the fulfillment of a need or furtherance of an effort or purpose; "he gave me an assist with the housework"; "could not walk without assistance"; "rescue party went to their aid"; "offered his help in unloading"
# contribute to the furtherance of; "This money will help the development of literacy in developing countries"
# improve; change for the better; "New slipcovers will help the old living room furniture" 

Are you denying that a sharp blade helps the operation of a plane? It may not be the *only* factor required but it sure does help. A lot. No where in the definition of help does it say that "help" means complete and definitive. "Helping" you get the most out of your plane in no way implies that the help well be the only thing required.

Claiming it doesn't deliver on its promises is ludicrous; no where in any of the marketing material does it claim plane fettling, is explicitly titled in a way that does not imply that. Your hypothetical video clip isn't how they market it and remains a hypothetical complaint. Your "facts" may be facts but do not contribute to your argument. Snow is cold. There, a fact! Therefore pigs can fly!


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## Niall (12 Mar 2008)

This thread has turned into something that is tedious to read, and a bit unpleasant. Is it time to lock it - please?


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## paulm (12 Mar 2008)

Alan,

I have been following this thread with increasing levels of frustration and disappointment, having wondered what exactly your agenda was and why you would continue to distract the thread onto your personal and somewhat pedantic agenda and how you think this helps or contributes to the forum.

You have made early on whatever limited and dogmatic points you had in mind, which I personally place absolutely no value in I have to say, but have continued to pursue your agenda in an unnecessary and disturbing fashion. 

Perhaps you really have something worthwhile to contribute to the forum and are just having a bad day, lets hope so.

Maybe I should have sent this by PM, I don't know, the mod's can obviously delete if it's inappropriate, but likewise we can well do without the kind of attitude displayed here behind the guise of a discussion of "facts".

Cheers, Paul.


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## Anonymous (12 Mar 2008)

Niall":1govuw3q said:


> This thread has turned into something that is tedious to read, and a bit unpleasant. Is it time to lock it - please?



I agree

And it has gone a long way of topic too.


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