# Pricing help!



## Char (21 Sep 2017)

Hi everyone,

My first post on here.

I'm a 23 year old carpenter from Bristol and have just finished making my first cabinet making project for a client. The price I've created seems really steep and I'm worried about their reaction. 

Not sure how to upload images but I've made three bespoke 18mm MDF Cabinet Carcasses 2 @880x600x625 and 1 @1300x600x300
3 bespoke 19mm thick maple shaker doors and installed a 240v plinth heater underneath.
I've given the cabinets 3 coats of white paint and spray lacquered the doors

All the materials came to £500 including hardware,timber,fixings and finishes etc

I charge £100 per day so the labour brought the whole job up to about £900-£1000. I've barely made any profit but it seems a lot and I haven't worked slowly. It took me 4-5 days in the workshop to build/paint everything and 2 days on site to install. I feel I've worked too hard to be receiving £450 for my work but the whole price seems really extortionate.

I've looked online and bespoke cabinets etc do seem quite expensive so have I charged correctly?

Would really appreciate some help.

Many thanks,

Charlie


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## RobinBHM (21 Sep 2017)

Hi Charlie welcome to the forum  

Unfortunately its hard to know without images much about value. Im guessing you are talking about 3no 2 door cabinets, shaker maple with solid framing and veneered centre panel? Id guess at £2k to £2 1/2k fitted.

For a bespoke job Id like to think it is face frame construction? If so, in maple your price is cheap. However the value to a significant extent depends on the quality of design and fitting. Setting out the design with the correct proportions of plinth, cornice, face frame, scribe trims etc. 

I wouldnt recommend doing a job without an agreed price, quotation with spec and a dimensioned drawing. I know thats a lot of work but it defines a contract that is fair for both you and the client. Im guessing this must be a client you know well? The problem is the price now depends on what the client perceives to be what he/she wants to pay and has no connection to materials + labour cost. Also if uou didnt do a drawing, has your design met their brief?

Did you give an indication of price? That might tell you what the expectation is.


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## Char (21 Sep 2017)

Hi Robin,

Thanks so much for replying.

I'll try and learn how to upload an image so you have a better idea. The client is a neighbour who I've known for a while and it was quite a relaxed meeting. I said I'd do a quote/estimate but he said not to worry as he knew I wouldn't rip him off! Due to lack of experience I couldn't come up with an indication of price. My dad used to help me with my pricing before he passed away a few months ago. I'm useless haha!

Thanks again,

Charlie


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## RobinBHM (21 Sep 2017)

If you go to the board index, select the projects, workshop tours (or any other section). there is a picture posting guide at the top.

Always very dangerous to go along with a customer saying just go ahead and make it, the price is the price!


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## Char (21 Sep 2017)

Got there in the end!

The cabinets are not finished in this picture.

The gaps have been filled, caulked and painted,
Handles have been installed,
Mains sockets have been installed inside as have the adjustable shelves.


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## doctor Bob (21 Sep 2017)

Do you intend to do this for a living?
5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.


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## sunnybob (21 Sep 2017)

The hardest part of being self employed is to have the confidence to charge enough to make it worth while.
100 a day is NOT extortionate.

The secret of staying self employed is never do stuff for friends without a cast iron agreement in front of witnesses.

if you want, make out a full cost of parts used. Round every price up to the next tenner. Dont sell yourself cheap, Dont apologise.

"Heres the bill, thanks for the work, they'll last a lifetime" should be the limit of your conversation.

If you get real serious resistance, just say you dont want to get into an argument and you can take them all out again and he can get someone else to do the work. 

Use it as a lesson for the future.


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## Char (21 Sep 2017)

doctor Bob":htl1tpmx said:


> Do you intend to do this for a living?
> 5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.




Well I would expect an experienced man to do it a lot quicker. 

I didn't ask how long should it take. I asked about the price. Time taken is surely irrelevant on a price. 

It's my first cabinet project so I understand I wouldn't make a good wage if I continued to work at that speed.


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## Char (21 Sep 2017)

sunnybob":285bcl9f said:


> The hardest part of being self employed is to have the confidence to charge enough to make it worth while.
> 100 a day is NOT extortionate.
> 
> The secret of staying self employed is never do stuff for friends without a cast iron agreement in front of witnesses.
> ...



Thanks for the helpful advise


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## doctor Bob (21 Sep 2017)

Char":5ferz9by said:


> doctor Bob":5ferz9by said:
> 
> 
> > Do you intend to do this for a living?
> ...



I think you have done well to get £1000


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## MattRoberts (21 Sep 2017)

Char":qshjo7xn said:


> I didn't ask how long should it take. I asked about the price. Time taken is surely irrelevant on a price.



When you're charging for time as well as materials, I think the time taken is actually quite relevant.

If you're new to cabinet making and therefore have been slower than someone more experienced because you've been learning, should you not charge for how long it should have taken rather than how long it did take?


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## Char (21 Sep 2017)

That's what I thought I was doing with my relatively low rate. Apparently not.

Some of the guys I've worked with charged double.


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## Nelsun (21 Sep 2017)

Up here in Shetland, the day rate for a hard grafting joiner is 250. And yet you'll pay 750 for a hand made oak resting chair. Go figure.

I don't know what your connection with your client is but I'd sound them out in advance of a bill on a high day rate but give them a consession for not having agreed a price to start with. And get your head into pricing before taking your next commission


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## jlawford (22 Sep 2017)

I'm not a professional craftsman (weekend woodworker!) but I am a professional salesperson with 12 years experience dealing with and advising small businesses.

Key points for me are know your market and charge what your worth.

You will have to do some bread and butter work for sure to keep the money coming in, but more custom and bespoke projects give you the option to charge more- as long as your work is up to scratch of course! If someone cares enough to have quality bespoke solutions in their house they won't mind spending more to get what they want i.e. Spending £2K on quality built in cabinets instead of half that at oak furniture land or something similar

Also the idea of value and perceived value. If you charge a premium price it must be good quality right? That's what the customer who can pay the premium price is thinking. If a certain customer won't lay premium prices then you can look at offering simpler cabinets etc...that are easier to make rather than downgrading your pricing.


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## sunnybob (22 Sep 2017)

doctor Bob":39im8put said:


> Do you intend to do this for a living?
> 5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.



This guy has told us its his first post here and his first job.
tell me that none of you screwed up your very first job, and havent screwed up any since.

A few weeks back there was a large moan here that no one was taking up the tools. no wonder with "helpful" responses like that.


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## doctor Bob (22 Sep 2017)

sunnybob":3apcabrg said:


> doctor Bob":3apcabrg said:
> 
> 
> > Do you intend to do this for a living?
> ...



Or it's a reality check, he is a carpenter, I assume he's fairly proficient, therefore I assume he is hoping to make a living from cabinet making and carpentry. The reality is he needs to speed up, not charge double or he won't make a living. Trust me if it's possible to just decide to double the cost of a job we all probably would. However we would all be twiddling our bum hair.
I didn't realise I was solely responsible for the lack of trades in this industry due to a single post. All my efforts over the last 15 years running an annual apprenticeship scheme at work wasted, god forgive me!!!!!! Anyway of to work to make an honest living and interview apprentices for this years position .....................


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## petermillard (22 Sep 2017)

doctor Bob":169x7kr1 said:


> Or it's a reality check, he is a carpenter, he's fairly proficient, therefore I assume he is hoping to make a living from cabinet making and carpentry. The reality is he needs to speed up, not charge double...


I suspect there's room for both. Yes, he probably needs to speed up, but he absolutely needs to be charging more. Seem to recall you writing once, Bob, that when you were starting out doors took you ages because you didn't have enough clamps. I have a small workshop - there's not much I can do while paint is drying. I can make up for this by charging more, because London.

So, a slightly different game when you're a one-man-band, don't you,think?

Also, I have to ask; one man-day to make and paint 3 cabinets - really? #impressed

Cheers, Peter


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## JSW (22 Sep 2017)

petermillard":1q6jplp1 said:


> Also, I have to ask; one man-day to make and paint 3 cabinets - really? #impressed



Not to mention ...



Char":1q6jplp1 said:


> *3 bespoke 19mm thick maple shaker doors* and installed a 240v plinth heater underneath.
> I've given the cabinets 3 coats of white paint and spray lacquered the doors
> Charlie



If they're from scratch, then no wayyyy one day!


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## sunnybob (22 Sep 2017)

doctor Bob":2muy6jgc said:


> sunnybob":2muy6jgc said:
> 
> 
> > doctor Bob":2muy6jgc said:
> ...


He asked for help.......


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## Mike Jordan (22 Sep 2017)

You must keep in mind that a bespoke item will have very little value to anyone but the person ordering it, so you can't afford to have the customers changing their minds. Drawings and photos of previous projects solve the problems of the customer who has something in his minds eye that isn't in yours.
I am making items from a range of previous jobs or from customers photos of similar items to the thing they want.
I always send a written quote and take a 50% deposit before starting work. This tends to concentrate the customers mind and make them consider if the item is what they really have in mind!
The sheer volume of imports from China and other places means that most items of domestic furniture made in oak for example are now described as "carefully made in our workshops". This actually means unloaded from a container as a flat pack and fitted with a few KD fasteners. There is no way that anyone can compete with the prices of these in my opinion. The competent craftsman can make a living but only by working in specialist areas where one off items cannot be mass produced and sold on the net.
If you are to cover overheads involved in running a small workshop, paying liability insurance and transport costs, I suggest that you start calculating at £200 a day. ( this figure will vary according to area)


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## doctor Bob (22 Sep 2017)

JSW":2bxgqsgk said:


> petermillard":2bxgqsgk said:
> 
> 
> > Also, I have to ask; one man-day to make and paint 3 cabinets - really? #impressed
> ...



I'd be gutted if I couldn't turn that around in a day, I suppose I have a good set up.


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## RobinBHM (22 Sep 2017)

There's a trade off between what a self employed carpenter can charge for making 3 straight forward cabinets and how long it takes.

A guy in a home workshop without a quick set up system may take a long time to make and spray a few cabinets, but that doesnt necessarily mean he can charge for his full day rate. The job is only worth what the market will bear.

However although a high end bespoke kitchen company, may be able to make such a job quickly, the margins built in for sales commission, surveying etc probably mean a small job is going to be a lot of money, if indeed a such a company could even be bothered with a small job.

The main advice to the OP is always agree a price first. Avoiding it at the beginning puts you at the mercy of the customer. Its also unfair to the customer, if he has £300 in mind and your price is £1000 -why should he pay more....

Hopefully you will come back and let us know how much you did get paid!

Why not ask on this forum for advice on pricing? -its always difficult at the start knowing how much to charge, you dont have a history of knowing how much jobs cost, or what they are actually worth.


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## profchris (22 Sep 2017)

The OP has two separate questions:

1. How to price for the future.

2. What to charge for this particular job.

There has been plenty of advice about 1, but not much about 2.

I think on this job, all he can do is to go to his neighbour and explain what the materials cost and how long the work took. I suspect the neighbour will be shocked at the cost of materials, just because ready made stuff is so cheap, but you never know. The important thing on this one is to end up with a price which the neighbour can live with, because word of mouth is really important for future work. If you end up charging materials cost only, that might be worth it to keep your neighbour happy and spreading the good word about you. But I wouldn't offer that - I'd say something like "The materials cost £500 and it took me 5 days labour, so I should really be charging around £1,500. But we never discussed the price, and so I need to know how you feel about that." If the neighbour turns pale, make it clear you want to make him happy and ask how much he thought he would be asked to pay. Then you have a top/bottom price within which to discuss the final price.

For future pricing, it's clearly essential to work out materials cost first. As a customer, I'd appreciate some idea of materials cost because it tells me why the price is what it is. I had my house rewired a couple of years back and was initially taken aback by the cost, mainly because in my head I have the prices I paid for DIY stuff 20+ years ago. The estimate told me what materials were likely to be, and with that and the time involved I could see I was getting a fair price.


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## doctor Bob (22 Sep 2017)

petermillard":3l0lk1ff said:


> doctor Bob":3l0lk1ff said:
> 
> 
> > Or it's a reality check, he is a carpenter, he's fairly proficient, therefore I assume he is hoping to make a living from cabinet making and carpentry. The reality is he needs to speed up, not charge double...
> ...



That's a fair point, however I'd be a bit gutted to know I was paying someone to wait for paint to dry. 

By the way, I did say one man day, not in one day. I tend to run 5 plus jobs at once. Lot easier to make 100 doors at a time. 4 sider, speed sander, sprayshop, etc it would be an easy day. Anyway as someone said, I wouldn't be interested in a job like this so I'll butt out of it. People seem to take no notice of me anyway


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## pcb1962 (22 Sep 2017)

doctor Bob":11vo1z0w said:


> petermillard":11vo1z0w said:
> 
> 
> > doctor Bob":11vo1z0w said:
> ...


One of the features of this forum I appreciate most is the way that seasoned woodworking professionals are prepared to give hobbyists and newcomers an insight into their world. Please continue to do so Bob, Peter and others.


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## deema (22 Sep 2017)

Bob is spot on, and highlights the level of competition that there is. In essence, the customer had a requirement and the objective is to produce a high quality solution in which you make money. I know that seems obvious, however, what it implies is that you consider where you add your value. Bob, who I suspect buys material in bulk and has sophisticated machines and a team of professionals can make the base cabinet cheaper than either buying them or a one man band can make them. However, he won’t be interested in the smaller jobs. 

To tackle the job outlined an alternative approach could have been to buy standard units from say Howdens ready assembled. Custom make the doors and face frames and install. This would allow everything to be done in the timescale suggested by Bob and probably for a lower material price than was achieved by making everything. In this case the added value is achieved by making only the bits the customer really sees and fitting them well. It’s very easy to think that you have to make everything if it’s wood. I’m fairly certain that could in this scenario change at say £200/ day or £300 labour for the 1.5 days work.


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## ColeyS1 (22 Sep 2017)

doctor Bob":298m8q82 said:


> People seem to take no notice of me anyway


Did you spot this thread Bob ?
viewtopic.php?t=107763

I think it looks a smart tidy job. It costs what it costs. I assume you're not vat registered so the client won't need to pay an additional 20% other larger companies may charge. Wood and materials aren't cheap, nothing is anymore. Unless they're completely out of touch with what things cost then they shouldn't be surprised with the bill. 

Friends, family and favours for friends of friends should always be approached with caution. I did a favour for an elderly member of my family. It was floor to ceiling built in wardrobes about 8ft long I think. When she asked me how much I stupidly said, well the sheets alone were 300 quid the stain, door furniture etc were all extra on top of that, just give me what you think is a fair price. Cut a long story short I earned about £3.50 per hour for my trouble. :lol: - never again !!!! As you can expect she was delighted with her wardrobe,I never did anymore work for her.

Unless you're working for some extremely wealthy it's always worth doing a few quick calculations and giving them a ball park figure. A 40% upfront deposit is also a good idea so atleast you can have some kind of commitment.
Sunnybobs advice is good when it comes to giving the bill. You've worked hard that's what it cost, end of story.
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## doctor Bob (22 Sep 2017)

ColeyS1":2782mcbf said:


> doctor Bob":2782mcbf said:
> 
> 
> > People seem to take no notice of me anyway
> ...



I did, he sounds like a decent chap, thoroughly nice fellow and I imagine he is incredibly handsome as well.


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## ColeyS1 (22 Sep 2017)

doctor Bob":15adp68a said:


> ColeyS1":15adp68a said:
> 
> 
> > doctor Bob":15adp68a said:
> ...



Dunno Bob. It's a job to tell all that from a phone conversation. I guess if he was willing to help there's a good chance he's a kind caring and considerate lover :lol: 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Char (22 Sep 2017)

Thank you sunnybob 

They came back from holiday today and were really please with the work and the price. 

The reason it took so long was because I'd never done it before and my table saw is too small to cut panels down. I'll defo get them machined up before hand in future.

All part of the learning experience. I will do it quicker next time and charge more competently.


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## MikeG. (22 Sep 2017)

That's great........but what was the price you charged?


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## Char (22 Sep 2017)

I went to £850 including the sparkies rate.

I understood I should've done it a day or so faster. However, not in one day because I'm on planet earth.

I will definitely agree a price beforehand in future. Put it down to experience.

Thanks to those who helped


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## Chip shop (22 Sep 2017)

Char":2i41dm3w said:


> I went to £850 including the sparkies rate.
> 
> I understood I should've done it a day or so faster. However, not in one day because I'm on planet earth.
> 
> ...



Soz, I compiled a really long winded (but hopefully informative) reply to this thread then the forum S/W decided to loose it for me!

The rub of it was I could do the making in a day and possibly shoot a coat of primer. The painting would take another day (although I'd be doing other stuff inbetween) and I'd allow a day for fitting. I'd add my workshop time then allow for rent, rates, insurance, fuel, my massive crystal meth habit and anything else I can think of, then my price would have come in at £1,650 + contigency of £200 that I may have knocked off if they didn't have sticky carpets.

I'm a chippy that knocks together the the odd built in. Don't listen to me but do listen to the likes of Dr Bob (and many others on here) who make cabs all the time. Their workflow is going to be pretty efficient. Draw a rod, make a cut list and cut components. Don't mess about dry fitting and leaning on your bench, admiring your work.


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## Char (22 Sep 2017)

Chip shop":2xscndnm said:


> Char":2xscndnm said:
> 
> 
> > I went to £850 including the sparkies rate.
> ...



Thanks a lot my friend.

I'm willing to listen to anyone who wants to help. 

Someone telling me how quick and brilliant they are isn't helpful however. 

All done now though. I can get hammered at the cricket on Sunday.

Appreciate your message


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## doctor Bob (22 Sep 2017)

Char":3c978qtz said:


> Someone telling me how quick and brilliant they are isn't helpful however.



and handsome and witty .................. my wife thinks I'm a thicky and she is probably correct. Brilliant hey, I shall go and tell her I have got too big for my own boots.


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## Chip shop (22 Sep 2017)

doctor Bob":8llb2twh said:


> Char":8llb2twh said:
> 
> 
> > Someone telling me how quick and brilliant they are isn't helpful however.
> ...



And short dumpy blue legs & a rubbish hat.


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## Adam9453 (23 Sep 2017)

Most people tend to get multiple quotes and often will tell you what they are, assuming you're willing to ask. 
That is a good way to judge the actual going rate in your area for a given spec job.
Typically you need to start out cheap to draw work without an established reputation then progressively increase your prices as demand increases.
If in doubt, ask for help on here.


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## whiskywill (25 Sep 2017)

Char":rpv6lwkm said:


> I can get hammered at the cricket on Sunday.



Slow at cabinet making AND a cricket fan. I 'm afraid there is no hope left for you. Why not apply for the X Factor? (hammer)


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## Jamster21 (25 Sep 2017)

Gents - just sticking a toe in the water and all that. Much appreciate being able to 'evesdrop' on all the advice flying backwards and forwards here. Its acting as both an inspiration and a reality check for someone who has access to a hopefully productive marketplace for 'passing' trade for small pieces of work and in the long term the odd small commission for what I can make in my spare time... So please do all keep talking...


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## Char (25 Sep 2017)

whiskywill":ir4xc737 said:


> Char":ir4xc737 said:
> 
> 
> > I can get hammered at the cricket on Sunday.
> ...



Some of South Wales' finest shanter right there.


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## Char (25 Sep 2017)

Jamster21":znrkxb3f said:


> Gents - just sticking a toe in the water and all that. Much appreciate being able to 'evesdrop' on all the advice flying backwards and forwards here. Its acting as both an inspiration and a reality check for someone who has access to a hopefully productive marketplace for 'passing' trade for small pieces of work and in the long term the odd small commission for what I can make in my spare time... So please do all keep talking...



And an abundance of spare time you clearly have.

A learning curve is what you mean I think.

I think the only reality check here is me thinking this site was a helpful forum for a new starter in the trade. In actual fact it appears to be a fellowship for people suffering with narcissistic personality disorder. Some have been a great help.

I think since the loss of my dad (Employer) 2 months ago to this day I've done pretty well to build up a carpentry business to what nearly is the biggest in our area. Without his financial aid before you say. So why don't you shove your verbal excrement where it belongs before you decide to stick your ore in next time.

Now let this serve as a 'reality check' to you.

Tada


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## beech1948 (25 Sep 2017)

Char,

Your last reply was ungracious and churlish. The post you responded to was not getting at you at all.

To obtain more help and assistance from here you should try a clamer more considered approach.

Good luck

Al


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## Char (25 Sep 2017)

beech1948":8mbclhow said:


> Char,
> 
> Your last reply was ungracious and churlish. The post you responded to was not getting at you at all.
> 
> ...



Expected a little more help to be honest. 

Not the place for me hindsight would suggest.


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## MrTeroo (25 Sep 2017)

I would say you got some very helpful advice in this thread.


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## tomf (25 Sep 2017)

Why can't I see the picture?


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## gasman (26 Sep 2017)

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly an innocent thread deteriorates into nuclear war. God help us all. Surely - if you ask an open opinion from a forum like this one - you have to be prepared to take whatever comes your way? I agree I think there's been some sound advice here.
Good luck to you
Mark


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## beech1948 (26 Sep 2017)

Char,

What has annoyed me is your attitude and approach in your posting.

However, lets let that go by.

You want help re pricing. Here goes for my sins.

1) You know nowt yet or at least just the basics.
2) Your first few commissions will be done in an amateurish manner re pricing so accept it and just do your best.
3) BUT start to make a list or a spreadsheet of what you are buying to run the workshop. Split it into job specific and other. 
4) Job specific include wood, fittings ( eg hinges,locks,brackets etc ) and your estimated time to complete. Set an hourly rate you need to achieve for yourself. Then for now 1/2 it as you are still at the slow stage. In six to 12 months reinstate it back to the full rate when you are at least 100% faster.
5) Other or Workshop costs. In here put electric, water,gas, glue,tool replacement, tool purchases, rags, paper towel rolls, stains,varnishes, paint, brushes, dust collection, etc etc.

After 6 months take all these costs and add them up and divide by 26 weeks to give you a first weekly consumables rate( divide by 26 X 5 days if you want an daily rate). This is the rate you need to afford all of the little essentials per day.
6) Add in some profit say 25% per job.

Now when you quote you do the following:-

1) Never give a quote off the cuff always do it in writing as part of your contract
2) Estimate wood needed, find price and add 10% or even 15% for contingencies
3) Estimate your time in hours ( while your being slow then maybe double the experienced pro's time) and multiply by the hourly rate you need
4) Add 2+3 above
5) To 4 above add the daily consumables rate mentioned above
6) Add profit to 5

You have roughly priced the job. Repeat this throughout your business life and you will get some accurate figues out. Keep a record of time taken both to see your improvement and also to see if you can a) increase your rate because you are quicker b) quote a more reduced price to win more business.

I said roughly priiced. That is because pricing is part science and part art. The science bit above will give you real world numbers. The art bit comes from judging the customer, what can they afford ?, what did they expect ?, will they compromise on materials ? and do you want to do this job then ?.

Finally pricing is not everything. Learn about what form of contract you need. What form of partial payment is needed. I take 50% up front before I start and expect the final balance upon delivery. Fitting is an extra charge.

So lots to learn.

Search the site for other mentions of "pricing" and you should find quite a few similar threads with even more detail. Some of these are 5 or more years old but the underlying principles are the same. Best to use Google to search the site as our search facility lacks precision.

Good luck.
Al


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## Jamster21 (28 Sep 2017)

Char":aah8q2gb said:


> Jamster21":aah8q2gb said:
> 
> 
> > Gents - just sticking a toe in the water and all that. Much appreciate being able to 'evesdrop' on all the advice flying backwards and forwards here. Its acting as both an inspiration and a reality check for someone who has access to a hopefully productive marketplace for 'passing' trade for small pieces of work and in the long term the odd small commission for what I can make in my spare time... So please do all keep talking...
> ...



Nice - thanks very much. Sorry about your dad but otherwise you're coming across like a bit of a kn0b. Straight enough for you?


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## Jamster21 (28 Sep 2017)

beech1948":16rv39jf said:


> Char,
> 
> Your last reply was ungracious and churlish. The post you responded to was not getting at you at all.
> 
> ...



Cheers - no offience intended but clearly taken.


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