# Sharpening chisels



## Colarris (28 Mar 2011)

I want to attempt this for the first time but really would like some advice or even better some form of walkthrough.


----------



## Dangermouse (28 Mar 2011)

Lots of video posts on YouTube, just put in a search.


----------



## Blister (28 Mar 2011)

Are you looking at carpentry chisels or wood turning chisels ?


----------



## woodbloke (28 Mar 2011)

Colarris":pre2846z said:


> I want to attempt this for the first time but really would like some advice or even better some form of walkthrough.


A veritable mine field is about to open up before you :lol: However, here's my two euros fwiw. If you've never done this before, use a cheap honing gauge. I used the Eclipse (or clone thereof) for years which is easy to set up and to use. Whatever your honing medium (oilstone, waterstone, diamond etc) you'll need a fine surface (eg a fine oilstone or fine diamond stone) which is flat (most important). Use some light gauge fluid as an lube (3in1, paraffin,WD40...not critical) Mount the chisel in the gauge to achieve a honing angle of 30deg (projection distances are usually on the side of the gauge) and then take say, six passes back and forth along the stone to achieve a wire edge on the reverse (or back) of the blade. Take the blade out and place the back *dead flat* one the stone (uber important) and again move back and forth to remove the wire edge. Once this has been done, the edge can be refined by spreading a fine abrasive metal polish on some mdf and carefully strop it bevel side down (only pulling the chisel back towards you) No need to remount it in the gauge for this bit. It does take a bit of practice so best done on an older chisel to start with - Rob


----------



## Schtoo (28 Mar 2011)

What Mr. Mouse said. 

And what Sir. Blister said too.

For now, skip any ideas of "what to use" unless you already have something. Take a look at all possible ways of getting your tools sharp, meet up with someone if you can and let them show you how to get your tools sharp, and after all that, start thinking about how you're going to get them sharp yourself.

Just off hand, there's sandpaper sharpening/scary sharp, oil stones, water stones, powered disk sharpeners, slow speed grinders, stropping and diamond pastes. No one method fits everyone, but there should be something that fits everyone.

And when you do start sharpening, don't be afraid to use a honing guide. Better to get repeatable results than repeated frustration. 

Stu.


----------



## Harbo (28 Mar 2011)

One word of warning on Rob's talk through is do not use oil etc if using Waterstones - only water!
David Charlesworth has some excellent paperbacks on sharpening which you can buy from The Book Depository etc. And Alf of this Parish has hand sharpening techniques on her Cornish Workshop Site.
A cheap way to start with an old chisel is to use some wet & dry, lubed and stuck down to a piece of flat glass with WD40. The Eclipse type guides are quite cheap on the Bay?

Rod


----------



## Jacob (28 Mar 2011)

If you must use a guide then the cheap Eclipse is the best by far. 
The main thing is to make sure that you have brought up a burr across the whole width so you are sure that you are working up a new fresh edge right across.


----------



## Harbo (28 Mar 2011)

No Jacob it is not the best by far but a good cheap one to start with. It has to be modified to approach the best.

Rod


----------



## woodbloke (28 Mar 2011)

Harbo":3mceca9s said:


> One word of warning on Rob's talk through is do not use oil etc if using Waterstones - only water!
> David Charlesworth has some excellent paperbacks on sharpening which you can buy from The Book Depository etc. And Alf of this Parish has hand sharpening techniques on her Cornish Workshop Site.
> A cheap way to start with an old chisel is to use some wet & dry, lubed and stuck down to a piece of flat glass with WD40. The Eclipse type guides are quite cheap on the Bay?
> 
> Rod


Forgot that bit about only water on waterstones  ...quite correct, thanks Rod, but as Schtoo has said, there's loads of different ways to achieve that all desirable edge, but the cheapest way (if you're a newcomer to this game) is an oilstone and Eclipse clone gauge, or wet/dry paper (fine grit) is even cheaper. If you want to go down the diamond stone route, then Ax have some very reasonable 'own label' diamond stones (or they did the last time I looked) - Rob


----------



## Colarris (28 Mar 2011)

Thanks all
I did try YouTube but there were soo many of varying quality and others that were using a honning gauge I didnt have I just hoped someone here would have a link to a definitive one. I've had a quick go anyway now. Not sure if its any sharper but the end looks all buffed now anyway!!


----------



## woodbloke (28 Mar 2011)

Colarris":2piggauk said:


> Thanks all
> I did try YouTube but there were soo many of varying quality and others that were using a honning gauge I didnt have I just hoped someone here would have a link to a definitive one. I've had a quick go anyway now. Not sure if its any sharper but the end looks all buffed now anyway!!


The problem is, there is no definitive honing guide or method of honing...hence my ref to a 'minefield'. It really is a question of asking lots of questions and then picking your way through all the information until you find a way that suits what you want to do. Some folk use _this_ particular gauge and _that_ particular honing medium and someone else will use something completely different and still achieve the same result. As I said earlier, try an Eclipse clone (around £6ish) and stick a strip of fine w/d silicone carbide paper to either a sheet of 6mm glass or an oddment of mdf (use double sided tape) 
Any questions or problems...get back to us :wink: - Rob


----------



## mtt.tr (28 Mar 2011)

I hate to say this i really think honing jigs are the wrong way to go i think it is important to be able to sharen with out one also when honing i have the blade 10-20 degres from the edge off the stone removes anychance off saw teeth


----------



## Anonymous (28 Mar 2011)

i have never understood the degrees aspect of grinding and honing, i just do it until its sharp enough to take the hairs off my arm.

A honing jig is something i never used either; they were frowned upon during my apprenticeship, in fact i took one into work once and my charge hand threw it in the bin before i even got it out the packet!!!


----------



## Karl (28 Mar 2011)

Honing guides give constantly repeatable results; something which freehand can't give you without a lot of practice.

I use the Veritas Mk2 - takes 20 seconds to mount the blade and then you're away with the sharpening. I find that if you try and freehand, the temptation is to raise the angle of the blade in relation to the "stone", resulting in an ever increasing bevel angle. Result - an inevitable "re-grind".

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Anonymous (28 Mar 2011)

Karl":mdr5wuwh said:


> Honing guides give constantly repeatable results; something which freehand can't give you without a lot of practice.
> 
> I use the Veritas Mk2 - takes 20 seconds to mount the blade and then you're away with the sharpening. I find that if you try and freehand, the temptation is to raise the angle of the blade in relation to the "stone", resulting in an ever increasing bevel angle. Result - an inevitable "re-grind".
> 
> ...



Good job i've had lots of practice then isn't it :wink:


----------



## jimi43 (29 Mar 2011)

There seems to be some "Rambo" thing about not using jigs and guides in the profession...

Blinkin' stupid IMHO. 

There used to be a lot to be said for an apprentice learning how to grind and hone by hand in days gone by simply because there weren't many good guides and jigs but nowadays these are clever, quick and relatively cheap.

There is nothing to be ashamed of by using guides and jigs and it is a great thing to be able to do it by hand too. At the end of the day...if you get a sharp edge who the hell cares!

One thing I would say though is to get the grinding right...square and right to the edge and you will feel a burr over when this is right. THEN take the burr off...flattening the back and putting a secondary bevel on is child's play.

Jim


----------



## Jacob (29 Mar 2011)

jimi43":1e7qdzhn said:


> There seems to be some "Rambo" thing about not using jigs and guides in the profession...
> 
> Blinkin' stupid IMHO. ....


It's just quicker and easier. Little and often. Also means you don't have to worry about flat stones quite so much.
I do occasionally (very rarely) have a go with a jig, basically as a tell-tale to verify the bevel. It shows up where the chosen angle (usually 30º) will hit the less than perfect hand done bevel, and I then can adjust my free-hand technique accordingly. More idle curiosity than necessity.


----------



## woodbloke (29 Mar 2011)

jimi43":8wwvu9b2 said:


> There seems to be some "Rambo" thing about not using jigs and guides in the profession...
> 
> Blinkin' stupid IMHO.
> 
> ...


Nicely said Jimi. The other thing that a guide will do, _if used correctly_ (apart from a consistent, repeatable angle) is to produce a dead square edge, important for something like a very close mouth on a smoothing plane or in a shoulder plane - Rob


----------



## Jacob (29 Mar 2011)

woodbloke":2w5rkyfw said:


> .....The other thing that a guide will do..... is to produce a dead square edge, .....


Absolutely not a problem freehand. You might have to choose your stone though. That hollowed out trough, ideal for cambering a plane blade (whether you want to or not) would not be ideal, but there may be a flat bit on it somewhere! Or another stone, or resort to wet n dry on a bit of board.

PS it's not about Ramboism. 
It's perhaps more a reaction to the attempt to reduce woodwork to precision engineering, at the expense of traditional hand and eye skills. 
At the other end of the spectrum is the burgeoning green woodwork scene, with wonderful things being made from green wood with axes and other simple tools. Not a digital caliper in sight!

PPS Recent show here post573899.html#p573899 seems to be *all* about blokey engineering, with the odd (highly symbolic?) inclusion of a woman with an axe? Strange. :shock:
Bring on the women with axes!


----------



## bugbear (29 Mar 2011)

woodbloke":3dbz8fj1 said:


> Nicely said Jimi. The other thing that a guide will do, _if used correctly_ (apart from a consistent, repeatable angle) is to produce a dead square edge, important for something like a very close mouth on a smoothing plane or in a shoulder plane - Rob




Depends on the guide. Any of the guides that have a narrow wheel or roller don't do this - it's mainly up to the operator. However, the angle can be very easily controlled by leaning (a bit) on one side or the other.

The angle changes very gradually, and can be nicely controlled.

This skill is pretty much essential on things like rebate and shoulder plane iron which all too often need a not-quite-ninety degree edge, due to minor errors in manufacture of the low angle bed.

BugBear


----------



## Alf (29 Mar 2011)

mark270981":25235gsu said:


> Karl":25235gsu said:
> 
> 
> > Honing guides give constantly repeatable results; something which freehand can't give you without a lot of practice.
> ...


Whereas a woodworker doing it for love rather than money may find their opportunities few and far between, thus not giving them the opportunity to develop the necessary muscle memory. Would you deny them a sharp chisel simply because their time is limited?


----------



## woodbloke (29 Mar 2011)

bugbear":18dkopwb said:


> woodbloke":18dkopwb said:
> 
> 
> > Nicely said Jimi. The other thing that a guide will do, _if used correctly_ (apart from a consistent, repeatable angle) is to produce a dead square edge, important for something like a very close mouth on a smoothing plane or in a shoulder plane - Rob
> ...


That's why, at the very last instant, I added the little caveat..._'if used correctly_' :wink: - Rob


----------



## Anonymous (29 Mar 2011)

Sorry to cause upset, its just far quicker and easier for me to put an edge on without the use of a guide. I was taught to use the quickest method to a sharp edge, which in this case is free hand honing. setting up a guide is a waste of time and money in my opinion. Nothing to do with Rambo or Rocky, or Captain Robert Hash.


----------



## Jacob (29 Mar 2011)

mark270981":3e2k6aec said:


> Sorry to cause upset, its just far quicker and easier for me to put an edge on without the use of a guide. I was taught to use the quickest method to a sharp edge, which in this case is free hand honing. setting up a guide is a waste of time and money in my opinion. Nothing to do with Rambo or Rocky, or Captain Robert Hash.


 :lol: 
In any case Rambo would be the tooly of toolies! I imagine him charging through a burning building clutching a huge MKIII honing jig - all brass knobs and glittering steel.

Here he is adjusting his jig prior to a sharpening session on his 25 piece marking knife set (A2 steel, cryogenically hardened, cocobolo handles):


----------



## Jacob (29 Mar 2011)

Alf":3f4fv4mt said:


> ... Would you deny them a sharp chisel simply because their time is limited?


Nobody is denying anybody anything. Just making helpful suggestions!
If time is limited then free-hand is the way to go IMHO. Just stick with one double-sided stone, a tin of oil and some rags. That'll do you for the first 10 years of your woodwork career!


----------



## mtt.tr (29 Mar 2011)

I have to say i grind free hand and hone free only becuase it is the way i have been taught and now i can so im unlikely to take to jigs but i dont disagree with them


----------



## bugbear (30 Mar 2011)

Jacob":28p42cqe said:


> Just stick with one double-sided stone...



Your Arkansas not working out for you? Your initial report was quite positive.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (30 Mar 2011)

bugbear":21wrv66w said:


> Jacob":21wrv66w said:
> 
> 
> > Just stick with one double-sided stone...
> ...


The above intended as advice for a beginner. No doubt he would acquire a few more stones later.
Ark stones seem fine. Too fine in fact. The black one that is. The white one is more use but still a bit on the fine side for me.


----------



## Colarris (5 Jun 2011)

I managed to get hold of a Stanley honing guide but its a little hard to use as the blade keeps moving. Will probably invest in the Axminster one plus their waterstone as my dads got a stone but hasn't a clue what it is!(?)


----------



## Anonymous (6 Jun 2011)

Best jig there is


----------



## Dibs-h (6 Jun 2011)

Colarris":rgp3tm7f said:


> I managed to get hold of a Stanley honing guide but its a little hard to use as the blade keeps moving. Will probably invest in the Axminster one plus their waterstone as my dads got a stone but hasn't a clue what it is!(?)



I'd just go and buy the Veritas gauge - it really is very good and will save a lot of hassle. The cheap ones are a bit of a pain to use.

I'd also ignore the jig vs freehand "discussions" (even tho they aren't that) as they are about as useful as the hand cut vs machine cut dovetails "discussions" for most of us. Best left to those that find something useful in them

Dibs


----------



## woodbloke (6 Jun 2011)

mark270981":2ys39hdd said:


> Best jig there is


...and which, if not done with due care and attention, will ultimately lead to and edge like this. I know how to freehand sharpen, having been a woodwork teacher for 20 years, but using a jig means that it's a lot harder to achieve the sort of skewed, cock eyed edge shown in the Jap chisel.
Would you want your best shoulder plane blade looking like that as well?..probably not. Jigs have their faults, but in general, they ensure that a square, repeatable angle at an edge can be made and they take only a while longer (with practice) to set up and use - Rob


----------



## Anonymous (6 Jun 2011)

I am sorry, but I was always always taught that any joiner/cabinet maker who is worth is salt should be able hone free hand - Every one has their opinions........................ But honing free hand should be practiced like you would practice a joint; till perfection.

The slightly annoying thing about this and the ensuing debate is its far easier and quicker to get an edge without a jig. The 2/4/6/8 hours it took you to earn the money to buy a decent jig you could have had free hand honing perfected!!


----------



## woodbloke (7 Jun 2011)

mark270981":2gpki7eh said:


> I am sorry, but I was always always taught that any joiner/cabinet maker who is worth is salt should be able hone free hand - Every one has their opinions........................ But honing free hand should be practiced like you would practice a joint; till perfection.
> 
> The slightly annoying thing about this and the ensuing debate is its far easier and quicker to get an edge without a jig. The 2/4/6/8 hours it took you to earn the money to buy a decent jig you could have had free hand honing perfected!!


Sorry, read what wrote...I *can* free hand sharpen and was doing it for twenty years as a woodwork teacher in mainstream education. As for _'easier and quicker'_ that's a matter of debate, which as you'll no doubt have realised, tend to go on for rather a long time! :lol: Quicker it certainly is, easier is a very moot point. As I pointed out, if you don't get it just right every time, you very soon end up with an edge as shown in the ebay pics...it's the old chestnut, the workmanship of 'risk' vs the workmanship of 'certainty' - Rob


----------



## Anonymous (7 Jun 2011)

woodbloke":331jdj08 said:


> mark270981":331jdj08 said:
> 
> 
> > I am sorry, but I was always always taught that any joiner/cabinet maker who is worth is salt should be able hone free hand - Every one has their opinions........................ But honing free hand should be practiced like you would practice a joint; till perfection.
> ...




I think we'll have to agree to disagree as even my college tutors from all those years back wouldn't allow a honing jig to be used.


----------



## bosshogg (7 Jun 2011)

Just a note...I bought 3 yes *three* diamond sharpening stones (£2.99) from Lidl recently, thinking they must be rubbish, I opened the first compartment holding the course stone, it turned out to be a diamond sintered, thin metal plate covering a piece of coloured plastic...what did I expect (homer) 
I tried to use it out of the box, it went slip sliding away (to quote Paul Simon's song) my never say die attitude coming to the fore (or should that be my "Fagan" like penny pinching attitude) -however- I siliconed it to a block of 1/2" mahogany, placed it on a non slip mat and worked a weary, multi faceted chisel edge on it. WOW unbelievable results, soon I had a single facet, honed and absolutely square angle, imperfections on the flat of the blade were quickly (relatively speaking) removed and one of the most pleasant experiences gained. I have gone on to re-establish perfect single facet angles on lots of my chisels and planes reducing the course marks down on a medium grit diamond honing plate bought years ago for a piffle, then on to a waterstone...scary sharp.

Lidl's tend to repeat offers like this every few months, IMHO you could do much worse than give these stones a try, at that price I also use the course one for keeping my waterstone absolutely flat and with a cutting surface second to none...bosshogg    



> You can't fix a problem using the same thinking that created it...A.E. 8)


----------



## Dibs-h (8 Jun 2011)

mark270981":367js0lm said:


> taught that any joiner/cabinet maker who is worth is salt should be able hone free hand -



It's about profit at the end of the day. 

Not intended at you Mark - those sorts of statements (and there's more) are easily seen as the realm of those those that couldn't or can't cut it out there. And were no doubt even more prevalent before mechanisation.

My 2euros worth

Dibs


----------



## bosshogg (8 Jun 2011)

Betcha you wished you'd never asked eh! this just happens to be one of the most emotive subjects on this forum, if you want a one to one PM me and I'll try to guide you with whatever equipment you have at hand...bosshogg


> No man is an island


----------



## Anonymous (8 Jun 2011)

I'm going to ask this question 

Who here when they get a new chisel or plane blade and flatten the back of it on a sharpening stone until you achieve an almost mirror like finish and who doesn't?


----------



## Peter T (8 Jun 2011)

mark270981":30wqn1ht said:


> I'm going to ask this question
> 
> Who here when they get a new chisel or plane blade and flatten the back of it on a sharpening stone until you achieve an almost mirror like finish and who doesn't?



I try to! 

Doesn't always work but I try.


----------



## jimi43 (8 Jun 2011)

mark270981":c865d7gw said:


> I'm going to ask this question
> 
> Who here when they get a new chisel or plane blade and flatten the back of it on a sharpening stone until you achieve an almost mirror like finish and who doesn't?



I don't :mrgreen: 

Jim


----------



## dunbarhamlin (9 Jun 2011)

Chisels, yes. Wider ones because I like to use the reflection for cutting miters, narrower ones because it takes so little to do, and it makes is easy to see if it's flat.
Plane blades I'll stop if the last 1/4" of the business end is polished. I don't ruler trick normally.

And on the OT, I don't use a jig for honing. It took ten minutes to learn to freehand, and a day in the workshop to get consistently working sharp - and some stuff can't be done in a jig, so it's a skill everyone will need at some point.


----------



## Schtoo (9 Jun 2011)

mark270981":155qfd2q said:


> I'm going to ask this question
> 
> Who here when they get a new chisel or plane blade and flatten the back of it on a sharpening stone until you achieve an almost mirror like finish and who doesn't?




It depends.

If it's something like a Marples, the first inch polished is enough, so long as the back is 'flat' enough. 

But every new chisel I've bought for my own amusement in the last year has been a Koyamaichi, and they're already flat. I just need a minute to make them polished, so why not spend that minute? 

Stu.


----------



## Anonymous (9 Jun 2011)

There's being flat then there is having a mirror like finish once this has been achieved, honing your chisels free hand are a piece of water, cause effectively you have done the hard work - i know some manufacturers will do this for you as standard but you pay a premium for this.

I know this a big debate and it has gone on in here since day dot - but it really is the simplest way for the majority of us just takes a little practice.

It takes me around 10 strokes to put a sharp edge on one of my blades, so roughly 10 seconds, if using a jig comes even close to that i will be totally amazed.


----------



## woodbloke (9 Jun 2011)

Mr Fujikawa's finest from Matt at WH have taken quite a lot of effort to get the backs flat and polished, 'specially some of the wider ones :shock: Some of them had a 'bump' just behind the cutting edge which took some time to remove, they're all good now and have been polished to the requisite 'mirror' (or as close as makes no odds) finish
Veritas LA plane blades now come lapped :mrgreen: so are dead flat to start with... a quick swipe with the 'ruler trick' is all that's needed on the backs - Rob


----------



## bugbear (9 Jun 2011)

mark270981":2vmi5bdf said:


> I am sorry, but I was always always taught that any joiner/cabinet maker who is worth is salt should be able hone free hand



In that case I disagree with your teacher. 

BugBear


----------



## bugbear (9 Jun 2011)

mark270981":1epch4px said:


> I'm going to ask this question
> 
> Who here when they get a new chisel or plane blade and flatten the back of it on a sharpening stone until you achieve an almost mirror like finish and who doesn't?



I flatten so that during normal sharpening the finest abrasive used on the back reaches all the way to the edge. Otherwise you can't remove the burr without introducing a back bevel.

If the back is flat enough for this, polishing is so very easy (just work through the grits) the question (for me) is - why not?

BugBear


----------



## woodbloke (9 Jun 2011)

bugbear":3c95klpy said:


> mark270981":3c95klpy said:
> 
> 
> > I am sorry, but I was always always taught that any joiner/cabinet maker who is worth is salt should be able hone free hand
> ...


+1...and my teacher(s) were Barnsley trained - Rob


----------



## Schtoo (9 Jun 2011)

mark270981":2lxusqex said:


> It takes me around 10 strokes to put a sharp edge on one of my blades, so roughly 10 seconds, if using a jig comes even close to that i will be totally amazed.



Perhaps, but your definition of 'sharp' and my definition of 'sharp' are likely on a completely different planet. 

If I use a jig, it takes about 5 minutes to sharpen a decent sized chisel. If I skip the jig, then maybe 2 minutes. But I don't expect to need to sharpen that chisel again until it's done a full day's work. I've never understood the 'sharpen often' mantra. If the tool is of decent quality and sharpened properly, then it shouldn't need 'just a touch up' for a long time. 

As these thread are always destined to become train wrecks, most especially instigated by those with a rabidly irrational distaste for jigs, why are they ever started?

Answer, because the poor souls who start them are looking to get their tools sharp, and to be able to do it _every single time_. If a jig of some description is a necessity for them to get their tools properly sharp *every single time*, then who am I, you or anybody else to tell them otherwise? 


Now, for how sharp I like my tools...

Take your chisel, freshly sharpened and shave hair. Not that wispy rubbish on your arm, tidy up your sideburns, trim the mo. If your chisels and plane blades are not that sharp, then go learn to sharpen properly and then come back and tell us all we don't know what we're doing.

Ok?

I'll even give you a picture for inspiration. Sharpened free hand so I don't upset your sensibilities...








And folks wonder why I am trying to stay away from forums. Everyone's got an axe to grind... :roll: 

Stu. 

Amateur sharpener.


----------



## Alf (9 Jun 2011)

Schtoo":1jzhpdjg said:


> Everyone's got an axe to grind... :roll:


Yeah, but do they use a jig for that...? :wink:


----------



## jimi43 (9 Jun 2011)

Does the foam have rust preventitive properties Schtoo? :wink: 

I think you will find it works better if you stack five chisels on top of each other :mrgreen: 

Jim

Amateur Comedian.


----------



## Dibs-h (9 Jun 2011)

I don't polish mine - flat is good enough. Having them mirror polished - what does that gain me? Does it mean I can cut thru oak like a knife thru butter or be more productive, make more money\profit? I suspect not - so I don't bother.

I'm sorry, but getting bogged down and hung up on tools is not really of interest - being more productive is of interest as is learning newer techniques, etc.

Dibs


----------



## Anonymous (9 Jun 2011)

Schtoo":2ya98r8m said:


> Now, for how sharp I like my tools...
> 
> Take your chisel, freshly sharpened and shave hair. Not that wispy rubbish on your arm, tidy up your sideburns, trim the mo. If your chisels and plane blades are not that sharp, then go learn to sharpen properly and then come back and tell us all we don't know what we're doing.
> 
> ...



Put your handbag away 

i'd thought id try it so giving my chisel a tickle on the stone then shaved some of my facial hair, works a treat, not as satisfying as doing it without shaving foam though as i have rather sensitive skin so will probably pay for it later.

All I am saying is if I can free hand hone then anyone can.

oops almost forgot the evidence


----------



## jimi43 (9 Jun 2011)

AH! But can you shave your moustache into a dovetail Mark! :mrgreen: 

Jim


----------



## Anonymous (9 Jun 2011)

Dibs-h":v67cpi9u said:


> I don't polish mine - flat is good enough. Having them mirror polished - what does that gain me? Does it mean I can cut thru oak like a knife thru butter or be more productive, make more money\profit? I suspect not - so I don't bother.
> 
> I'm sorry, but getting bogged down and hung up on tools is not really of interest - being more productive is of interest as is learning newer techniques, etc.
> 
> Dibs



Dibs - I am going to leave this argument i think where it is - as always you have hit the nail on the head if its sharp to cut the end grain of say oak its simply sharp enough for what it is used for, a razor needs to be razor sharp.

Anyway my closing argument on this is simple.

carry on doing whatever (as in the readership) you think is best, I have my way and it works perfectly well for me, in my eyes its the simplest quickest and most commercially viable way for me to do it and as i have said before - if I can do it, anyone can (within reason)


----------



## Anonymous (9 Jun 2011)

lol Jimi - don't really need to - Just wanted to prove a point to a very condescending poster.

To the ladies and gents of this forum I apologize for my ramblings regarding this very sore subject


----------



## Setch (9 Jun 2011)

For chopping mortices and rough work, a mirror finish is pointless, but for cutting perfect mitres on fine detail trim pieces it's really helps judge angles. Horses for courses...


----------



## Dibs-h (9 Jun 2011)

mark270981":f7ek5tr0 said:


> Dibs - I am going to leave this argument i think where it is - as always you have hit the nail on the head if its sharp to cut the end grain of say oak its simply sharp enough for what it is used for, a razor needs to be razor sharp.
> 
> Anyway my closing argument on this is simple.
> 
> carry on doing whatever (as in the readership) you think is best, I have my way and it works perfectly well for me, in my eyes its the simplest quickest and most commercially viable way for me to do it and as i have said before - if I can do it, anyone can (within reason)



No probs Mark - it's been one of the most civil (and amusing) discussions around these parts for ages! :mrgreen: 

I learnt a little late in life that for me to be right, doesn't mean you are wrong (and vice versa) as we are discussing subjective matters and what may work for one may not be the best (or indeed) work for another. If they were quantitative matters - there would only one answer! :lol: 

Dibs


----------



## bosshogg (9 Jun 2011)

Why yo on yo side haw, it faint by shavin man init :lol:


----------



## jimi43 (9 Jun 2011)

mark270981":2qxlogh5 said:


> lol Jimi - don't really need to - Just wanted to prove a point to a very condescending poster.
> 
> To the ladies and gents of this forum I apologize for my ramblings regarding this very sore subject



Which you did so beautifully Mark! 8) 

Now...must dash (geddit!)...got some wood shaving to do :wink: 

Jim


----------



## Schtoo (9 Jun 2011)

mark270981":3fo4lew7 said:


> lol Jimi - don't really need to - Just wanted to prove a point to a very condescending poster.
> 
> To the ladies and gents of this forum I apologize for my ramblings regarding this very sore subject



You could have put my name there, and pointed it out. I'd be tempted to say "pot, meet kettle" but then I'd be even more condescending, and we can't have that now can we.

Shaving looked painful...

I'm out. Sorry to have offended anyone. I'll not post again. 

Stu.


----------



## Anonymous (9 Jun 2011)

Schtoo":9ybvcaip said:


> Shaving looked painful...
> 
> 
> Stu.



shavings always painful regardless of the blade you use, when you only have spit and a van side mirror to do it with. Must remember to bring some shaving foam with me next time you have a silly little unfounded rant


----------



## studders (9 Jun 2011)

Schtoo":21pw6njh said:


> I'm out.
> Sorry to have offended anyone.
> I'll not post again.
> 
> Stu.



Of the closet? The Office? Of Ciggies? 
I wasn't the least bit offended.
That would be a shame.


----------



## Jacob (9 Jun 2011)

woodbloke":1qznk1bv said:


> ...... will ultimately lead to and edge like this. ......


Is there anything wrong with that edge? It appears to be straight (at the edge) and could well be 30º and quite OK though I guess it could do with a quick pass over a stone (face too).
They do _look_ nice from a jig, but appearances don't matter, it's how it cuts that counts.


----------



## woodbloke (9 Jun 2011)

studders":345q48zj said:


> Schtoo":345q48zj said:
> 
> 
> > I'm out.
> ...



Agreed...a great shame  . Stu's insights into Japanese tools are invaluable (to me at least anyway) - Rob


----------



## Karl (9 Jun 2011)

Mark - out of interest, do you just use one stone (I can't imagine you have a whole plethora of grits to hone through in 10 seconds ). If so, I presume you re-grind between honings?

Just interested.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Anonymous (9 Jun 2011)

Karl":3uwyj32i said:


> Mark - out of interest, do you just use one stone (I can't imagine you have a whole plethora of grits to hone through in 10 seconds ). If so, I presume you re-grind between honings?
> 
> Just interested.
> 
> ...



just one stone, ultra fine indian something or other given to me when i was 16 by a master cabinet maker. Why would I need to regrind between honings? I only regrind when I damage the chisel edge.


----------



## Karl (9 Jun 2011)

So using an ultra fine stone, ten seconds on the whole bevel is enough to raise a burr?


----------



## Anonymous (9 Jun 2011)

Karl":2l59bxmj said:


> So using an ultra fine stone, ten seconds on the whole bevel is enough to raise a burr?



yep - want me to post a video?


----------



## Karl (9 Jun 2011)

No - just asking the question.


----------



## Vann (10 Jun 2011)

Schtoo":2w9e5lah said:


> I'm out. Sorry to have offended anyone. I'll not post again.


You're fairly new around here aren't you Stu. Discussions on sharpening usually get heated. Don't get pineappled-off, you've made some interesting contributions in the short time you've been here. It would be a shame to lose you (even if you are an Aussie (hammer) ).

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Jacob (10 Jun 2011)

mark270981":fsgt0xhy said:


> I'm going to ask this question
> 
> Who here when they get a new chisel or plane blade and flatten the back of it on a sharpening stone until you achieve an almost mirror like finish and who doesn't?


I don't. 
It's completely pointless. 
If a plane blade face is not ideal then a fine bevel is the answer (the ruler trick - but freehand without a ruler is much easier) until with repeated flattenings with each honing, a bevel is no longer necessary.
With chisels I "flatten" just enough to get a good edge. Easy if the face is concave a touch, or hollow like a jap job (I guess - I've never had my hands on one). Basically put on more pressure near the end as you flatten it.


----------



## woodbloke (10 Jun 2011)

mark270981":3t1qycnh said:


> Karl":3t1qycnh said:
> 
> 
> > So using an ultra fine stone, ten seconds on the whole bevel is enough to raise a burr?
> ...


I'm slightly perplexed and confuzzled here :? What's the definition of an _'ultra fine stone'_? I used to use a 10000g Spyderco ceramic, which is what I would call 'ulta-fine' and there's no way that a burr could be turned in 10 seconds on that stone. I _suspect _that if Mark is using a fine India (or similar, as indicated earlier) it's probably a lot coarser grit than my old 10000g Spyderco, in which case it's perfectly doable- Rob


----------



## Anonymous (10 Jun 2011)

fine/ultra fine india it is

what on earth are you sharpening on a 10000g??


----------



## jimi43 (10 Jun 2011)

mark270981":1dmoxfxw said:


> fine/ultra fine india it is
> 
> what on earth are you sharpening on a 10000g??



His razor sharp wit..... :mrgreen: :wink: 

Jim


----------



## bugbear (10 Jun 2011)

Karl":3izo5lxb said:


> So using an ultra fine stone, ten seconds on the whole bevel is enough to raise a burr?



If Mark's stone is marked (or believed to be) "indian", and it's from "back when", it's almost certainly a Norton India, which is Aluminum Oxide.

The finest stone in this range is called "fine" by Norton; the grit size is 43 micron, which is roughly the same as 320 grit sandpaper in Europe (FEPA).

And, yeah, that'll bring up a burr pretty nicely. Works well on cooks/carving knives too, leaving an aggressive, slightly toothy edge, excellent to tomatoes and meat.

BugBear


----------



## woodbloke (10 Jun 2011)

mark270981":3vz5ekoh said:


> fine/ultra fine india it is
> 
> what on earth are you sharpening on a 10000g??



Mark, it that's what you're using (a Fine India) to get your '_sharp_' edge, I might suggest that you drag yourself kicking and screaming :lol: into the 21st century and invest in gear that will give you a superfine edge instead of the saw-tooth that you currently seem to achieve...see BB's post above.

The 10000g Spyderco was used as a final polishing stone on Jap chisels, but I can now use (if I wish) a 1micron 3M film from Matt at WH which is around 12000g. If I really want to go to town though, I've got a .3micron film which is about 36000g or thereabouts - Rob


----------



## Paul Chapman (10 Jun 2011)

Or use some Solvol Autosol and 3-in-1 on a flat piece of wood







Super-quick, super-cheap and super-sharp 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Peter T (10 Jun 2011)

woodbloke":b10f2ydm said:


> mark270981":b10f2ydm said:
> 
> 
> > fine/ultra fine india it is
> ...



Here's my version of it (Ooops, forgot the picture!) -






5 microns, 1 micron, 0.3 microns all on a nice flat granite surface plate.

Interestingly the 5 micron 3M film produces a finer finish than my 4000 grit water stone, even though it is nominally courser?


----------



## bugbear (10 Jun 2011)

Peter T":betuzblj said:


> Interestingly the 5 micron 3M film produces a finer finish than my 4000 grit water stone, even though it is nominally courser?



Grit size isn't the whole story.

BugBear


----------



## Sawyer (10 Jun 2011)

Dibs-h":g6relfbq said:


> Colarris":g6relfbq said:
> 
> 
> > I managed to get hold of a Stanley honing guide but its a little hard to use as the blade keeps moving. Will probably invest in the Axminster one plus their waterstone as my dads got a stone but hasn't a clue what it is!(?)
> ...



I have never owned a honing guide, or even tried one out. But I don't get too hung up about exact honing angles. The question is 'does the chisel do well, what I want it to?'. If not - it's back to the sharpening bench.

I wouldn't dream of criticising anybody for using a guide, that's one's own business and if a fellow woodworker has achieved a sharp edge, good luck to them - I don't care how they got there. Why would I?

Re; jigs _vs_ freehand, did I hear somebody mention spindle and bowl gouges? 

(light the blue touchpaper and run!!) :wink:


----------



## matthewwh (10 Jun 2011)

T'aint so much the exactitude of the angle itself (in degrees) it's the repeatablilty. If you can set precisely the same secondary each time (whether it be 28, 30 or 29.537495725476 degrees) if it's exactly the same angle as you had last time you need to remove less metal which means less strokes, and your blades stay longer for longer.

Freehanding has it's place, I strop and grind freehand most of the time and I'll even admit to using 'the dip' when stropping to avoid rounding over the edge - thanks Jacob. But I'm blessed if I can hone a dead parallel 1mm secondary into a dead parallel 1.2mm secondary without using a guide, especially on a cambered iron. With a guide I can do it without even thinking and come up with a machine perfect result every time - so I use one. 

Occasional stropping as you work means that you are always working with a fresh edge, it's not even really honed, more smoothed, so any tiny defects in the surfaces are eased. Using a guide for this would be as pointless as an ashtray on a motorbike because the leather surface has some give in it - hence 'the dip' to alleviate any rounding over at the end of the stroke. Once the wear bevels begin to develop (you feel the pressure required to make the cut increasing slightly) it's time for a quick hone through the grades on proper abrasives, one or two strokes on each with a tickle on the back and you're back to a fresh edge again.

Taking Stuies example of honing everything at the end of the day, if the last cut was as perfect as the first why do you need to hone at all....? I understand some supersteels have got over the problem of primary carbide formation that dogged air hardening die steels like A2 and D2, but good quality plain carbon steels like white#2, T10 or O1 never had that problem anyway and they are a fraction of the price. Would I pay that if it halved the time between stropping or sharpening, no, I'd still have to do it and I believe a few moments mindless activity at the strop every once in a while is actually quite refreshing.

A lot of folks mumble on about old steel being better than new steel, my take on this is that steels themselves have improved dramatically in both quality and consistency of quality. The problem is that hardening went down the pan in the dark ages (1950 to 1990) when the accountants hamstrung the metalworkers and introduced monstrosities like induction hardening. Induction is accurate to about +/-3 deg Rockwell C, so the finished product can be anywhere from RC55 to RC61. 55 is cheese, 61 is spot on, so you get good ones and bad ones. Oil, water or salt hardening, which all self respecting manufacturers either never left or have gone back to, will give accuracy of +/-1 degree or better, so you get quality and consistency. I understand that if it weren't for progress we would be bombing Libya with Lancasters, but there is a world of difference between genuine progress and change for its own sake.


----------



## Doug B (10 Jun 2011)

Paul Chapman":2x4lgjsl said:


> Or use some Solvol Autosol and 3-in-1 on a flat piece of wood
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I`ve been experimenting with this method since Paul first mentioned it in his "honing lessons from Westonbirt" thread, & couldn`t agree more with his comment, Super-quick, super-cheap & super-sharp..


Cheers.


----------



## Anonymous (11 Jun 2011)

Doug B":1zenoc9q said:


> Paul Chapman":1zenoc9q said:
> 
> 
> > Or use some Solvol Autosol and 3-in-1 on a flat piece of wood
> ...



its almost always the simplest ways are the cheapest and most effective as they have stood the text of time.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jun 2011)

matthewwh":3qakwi5x said:


> ...... I'm blessed if I can hone a dead parallel 1mm secondary into a dead parallel 1.2mm secondary without using a guide, especially on a cambered iron. .......


Yebbut why on earth would anyone want to do that? 
OK it looks nice to have such visible precision but the edge can be 30º and perfectly sharp even if the "secondary" bevel varies from zero to full width.
I don't have secondary bevels at all on any of my very sharp plane and chisel blades, though you could count a rounded bevel as a series of infinitely small bevels, starting with an infinitely small 30º bevel, if it made you any happier!


----------



## bugbear (13 Jun 2011)

Jacob":2hxi7jpj said:


> matthewwh":2hxi7jpj said:
> 
> 
> > ...... I'm blessed if I can hone a dead parallel 1mm secondary into a dead parallel 1.2mm secondary without using a guide, especially on a cambered iron. .......
> ...



Matthew's first paragraph explained in detail, as you know and deleted, so this must be another of your "cat amongst the pigeons" posts.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (13 Jun 2011)

bugbear":4p4z8e49 said:


> Jacob":4p4z8e49 said:
> 
> 
> > matthewwh":4p4z8e49 said:
> ...


You have missed the point.
It might help if you attempt to answer the following question yourself.
How do you think freehand honers manage to achieve sharp edges quickly and easily (as they do), when they clearly can't achieve the 0.2mm precision and "repeatability" as described by Matthew?


----------



## dunbarhamlin (13 Jun 2011)

Hey! Quit squabbling you two. You're like Floyd and Delia. Mashing spuds? One says boil 'em, bash 'em, fling in some butter and a splosh of milk. Other fannies about making sure the water's to temp, they're all the right size, weighs the butter, measures the milk, probably bloody warms the milk, faffs about some more. And you both just end up with mash. 
Jigs work well for most tools. Those tools OTS jigs don't work for could be jigged - but would take longer to make the jig than to learn to freehand - and you'll freehand the weirdies better if you're in practice freehanding other tools.
The precision is a requirement of the honing guide not of the operation, as with other jigged processing (e.g. insisting all styles are of identical thickness - only required for jigged/powertool joinery)
Repeatability a given either way. Jigged, it's a function of the precision. Unjigged it's a bit of practice - can see and feel when your at the right angle and if one side needs more work than the other.


----------



## Colarris (4 Jul 2011)

Just wondered if somebody could explain what is going on in the vid below. What is that strip of black stuff he uses? Is that a substitute for a grinding stone? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnvwAIVW4uM


----------



## Karl (4 Jul 2011)

The first is some 800g wet n dry paper. The second is a block of wood with some polishing compound rubbed into it.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Colarris (4 Jul 2011)

Thanks Karl.


----------



## Jacob (4 Jul 2011)

Colarris":3b5iycdq said:


> Just wondered if somebody could explain what is going on in the vid below. What is that strip of black stuff he uses? Is that a substitute for a grinding stone?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnvwAIVW4uM


He's fine honing an already sharp chisel (800 grit is pretty fine) and then polishing it with polishing compo.

He doesn't know some simple basics i.e. he's using a tile so he could stick the paper down just by wetting it, if it wasn't so crumpled up, as he hasn't taken any trouble to keep it flat, the ..

He doesn't show how he'd cope with a blunt chisel but I guess he'd start on a coarser grit.

You have to take youtube demos with a pinch of salt. There are some complete nutters out there!


----------



## bosshogg (5 Jul 2011)

I used to hone freehand, cause that was the way it was done in my day, but I always wondered if I could make something that would make the job easier. In those days grinding followed by honing on the 'India' oilstone, was the norm and I have to say until recently that was how I did it. Now, due to unforeseen circumstances, I have to do it differently.
The greatest thing, to me, was finding a diamond sharpening plate (my 'India' oilstone having been nicked) a very cheap (£3.99 I think) medium grit 6"x2" steel plate about 5/16" thick, which I glued onto a piece of mahogany. This worked very well, improving my blade stock quite considerably, but once I got a honing jig (Faithful, cheap from Amazon and free delivery) I've never looked back. I have recently acquired a set of three diamond honing sheets, c/w dust holes, which are crimped to coloured plastic sheets *£2.99 from Lidl's* I siliconed them onto a piece of mahogany (with heavy plane on top to assure flatness) as they are quite light and flexible, cheap and cheerful didn't expect much,* boy was I wrong *




With the coarsest grit sheet and the honing jig, I have taken all the blades in my shop to a suitable single bevel, even a 1/8" chisel which I griped below the recommended jaw positions, touching the guide bars and setting to angle by sight. No grinder has been used, normally it takes 10-20 mins to cut the bevel of a plane iron to say 35 deg. which isn't bad considering it only needs doing once, I have become so proficient that I can now set the blade in the jig protruding almost exactly right, a quick measurement confirms the exactitude (either 48 or 45mm in one instance) square and straight almost to the point of clinical, in fact I have to remember the need to take the outer points off the blade to prevent marks on the wood planed. This is done almost in the mind for my smoothing, try and bench planes, but physically sighted on the jacks and roughing planes to get a nice easing camber. I polish my single bevels on an 'Escher' waterstone (possibly the finest, according to some oficiados, I couldn't comment) and achieve the sharpest blade edges ever.
That's my story for what it's worth, I think my message is have an open mind mind "one man's meat is another man's poison" etc. so don't be scared to try whatever you've read so far, if it sounds right to you go for it...bosshogg 


> "Ethical axioms are found and tested not very differently from the axioms of science. Truth is what stands the test of experience." *A.E.* 8)


----------



## bugbear (5 Jul 2011)

bosshogg":2yi5c5t7 said:


> ...I have become so proficient that I can now set the blade in the jig protruding almost exactly right, a quick measurement confirms the exactitude (either 48 or 45mm in one instance)...



If you make one of these (not cabinet work!) you can literally set the protrusion exactly right (*) with your eyes closed (**)






People with sharpening stations (i.e. a board with chocks to hold various stones in place), often put the required stop "in situ", instead of my portable version. I don't have the luxury of a permanent sharpening area.

BugBear

(*) actually, consistency is more important than accuracy, but the gauge gives both
(**) should you want to


----------



## Colarris (25 Jul 2011)

Can I not just keep reproducing the micro bevel each time the chisel needs sharpening? How many runs across your stone does it take to usually to get it sharpen? Any sure way of testing it??


----------



## jimi43 (26 Jul 2011)

Each time you hone the primary bevel with a new micro bevel the latter grows bigger and the time taken to hone gets longer and takes more passes. There comes a point where the primary bevel will then need to be reground. That is the sequence.

A sharp edge is one where two flat faces meet at an infinitely small point..the closer that point, the sharper the edge. The finer the honing surface or grit...the finer the point. You can achieve razor sharpness with fine stones and stropping...which is the reason fine stones are very sought after and expensive.

With the Scary sharp system...you can go down to 0.3 of a micron! which produces a very fine edge. Most people can tell a woodworker because the hairs on their forearm are usually missing!!! Razor fanatics test on a hanging hair...slicing it downwards!! These extremes are not necessary to cut wood effectively for most jobs but it gets to be a bit of an obsession....fun though! 

You should also be able to feel how sharp a blade/iron is by running a thumb across it GENTLY from front to back...NEVER side to side...(pretty obvious really!)...these edges can get super sharp!

Let us know how you get on!

Cheers

Jimi


----------



## woodbloke (26 Jul 2011)

jimi43":2ulyufu7 said:


> Each time you hone the primary bevel with a new micro bevel the latter grows bigger and the time taken to hone gets longer and takes more passes. There comes a point where the primary bevel will then need to be reground. That is the sequence.
> 
> A sharp edge is one where two flat faces meet at an infinitely small point..the closer that point, the sharper the edge. The finer the honing surface or grit...the finer the point. You can achieve razor sharpness with fine stones and stropping...which is the reason fine stones are very sought after and expensive.
> 
> ...


Jimi's pretty much nailed it on the head here. The SS system is the one I use but I generally finish on the 1micron 3M film. Going down to the .3micron film is around 36,000g :shock: (according calculations from Matt at Workshop Heaven) which is probably a bit OTT for everyday use - Rob


----------



## Vann (27 Jul 2011)

woodbloke":1lmk34ds said:


> The SS system is the one I use...


Hmm... well I guess SS doesn't stand for Stay-Set in this case.

I'll get me coat....

Cheers :lol: , Vann


----------



## woodbloke (27 Jul 2011)

Vann":348btljk said:


> woodbloke":348btljk said:
> 
> 
> > The SS system is the one I use...
> ...


 :lol: - Rob


----------

