# Pricing up lipped casements (Storm proof)



## Mrroebotic (10 Jul 2020)

Any ideas on pricing for these?







Planned on using nice tight grain dougy fir I’ve never made casements but I’m confident.... I was thinking 3 days plus materials and a day to fit? Client wants 12 of them I don’t want pass up on this one.
I’m new to the forum I have A workshop and van so reasonable overheads any tips on day rate would be much appreciated.

@ £250 Per day?

https://ibb.co/3RS8CLR


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## Mike Jordan (10 Jul 2020)

So, let me see, no experience and struggling to use the correct terminology. No idea what to charge.
My best guess would follow that with -no apprenticeship, no training and clearly not much chance of the customer getting a good result.
I think I may have seen your van, is it the one with signs claiming that you have mastered a dozen skilled trades together with " no job to small"?
Some members of the public are easily led into trouble. Sorry can't help you.


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## Trevanion (10 Jul 2020)

Work it out yourself you lazy git :lol: 

I wouldn't let anyone without any experience go anywhere near bullseye glass if you're planning on re-using the panes, one breakage and replacement will put the whole job in the negative. If you're not planning on re-using the panes and instead changing the design of the window you may be in violation of planning laws in your area, even more so on a listed building.


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## MikeG. (10 Jul 2020)

Trevanion":1hd5b5ca said:


> ........ even more so on a listed building.



It's unlikely to be a Listed Building because "storm proof" windows haven't been allowed on these for many a long year. But you are right, any replacement casements on a Listed Building would require Listed Building Consent, and this always requires the provision of detailed (1:1 or 1:2) drawings.


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## That would work (10 Jul 2020)

12 bespoke casements in three days and one day to fit? maybe i'm slow.


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## deema (10 Jul 2020)

Firstly, welcome to the forum, there is a vast wealth of knowledge and experienced people on here, some that even take the time to ask what experience you have before leaping in with a view!

Well, I’m guessing you do have experience in wood working to have both a workshop and a van, so firstly, perhaps it would be useful to know what kind of work you have been doing.

Casement windows aren’t difficult to make, especially if you have the right machines. You used to be able to buy ready machined window stock that you have just to joint, and I’m not sure if this is the route you are planning to go down? 

The rate you are able to charge will depend on the local area, and what competition there is.


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## Mrroebotic (10 Jul 2020)

Thanks for your honest contribution You are probably right cowboy alert!!!!!
I have wondered why people keep asking me to make nice things for them they must all be clueless... 
I’ve made mainly cabinets and stand alone furnishings I am fairly new to the joinery world did my level 2 city and guilds bench joinery and moved straight into site work.
Worked for luxury home builder then went alone on refurbs for last 5 years slowly moving to the workshop and I love it. Sorry I haven’t got all the lingo down!
Keep the bills paid and everyone’s happy so .... 
oh yeah Back to you first post assumed The windows aren’t listed as they are reasonably new if I replace like for like??


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## MikeG. (10 Jul 2020)

Don't assume. Ask. If a building is Listed, anyone who works on it and causes changes without permission is actually committing a criminal offense. It isn't just a minor matter, and it isn't someone else's issue. Every person who works on a Listed Building is criminally liable. Sorry to be blunt. If this is a Listed Building, ask for the drawings, because window alterations won't be allowed without them. You can do repairs, like for like, but that involves scarfing in new pieces of wood into the existing, not wholesale replacement of casements. And I say again, "storm proof" windows have not been allowed on Listed Buildings since about the 1960s or earlier.

Buildings are Listed, not components. So you can't say "windows aren't Listed", because it is meaningless.


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## Doug71 (10 Jul 2020)

How long it takes all depends what kit you have, much quicker if you have a tenoner etc?

Don't forget you will need to inform building control and pay the appropriate fee for replacement windows.


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## deema (10 Jul 2020)

I can’t see the image, not sure why not so sorry it’s difficult to fully appreciate the work involved. 

Mike G is an architect as well as I understand an apprenticed joiner, he often gifts his vast experience on here and has helped any number of people with building related stuff. I’d listen to his advise very carefully.

I’m assuming you’ve got a spindle, table saw, tenoner and morticer from doing cabinet work and can accurately estimate how long to make up the windows. Bespoke wooden windows often command a premium. If I’m not making the frames I will often template each window, make and finish it in the workshop to minimise time on site. All hell is let loose for a spot of paint or silicone in the wrong place! 

Replacement openers for me is classed as repair and doesn’t need building control / FENSA.

You can sign up and pay you fees to become FENSA registered. The biggest con I’ve ever come across. It’s just that, pay a fee, get a registration number and crack on. They might once a blue moon if someone complains to them come and have a look at your work.....but other than that, they just take your money. Alternatively it’s building control. Factor which ever way you go into your costs.

A slight digression, but I’ve never found anyone who can define what repairing a window actually is. The most extreme example I’ve used is that I reuse a single screw from the window and everything else is new......this does not seem to contravene repair!


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## pollys13 (10 Jul 2020)

Window construction storm or flush, always interesting. Many members would appreciate if you could
contribute, a WIP.
Oh yes and welcome to the forum, lot of know how here, with people willing to help.


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## MikeG. (10 Jul 2020)

deema":id2ypiya said:


> ......Replacement openers for me is classed as repair and doesn’t need building control / FENSA.........



For Building Control purposes I am sure you are right. However, for Listed Buildings, this wouldn't count as repair, but as replacement, and thus require permission.



> A slight digression, but I’ve never found anyone who can define what repairing a window actually is. The most extreme example I’ve used is that I reuse a single screw from the window and everything else is new......this does not seem to contravene repair!



There's a definition somewhere, but I've no idea where. However, if you tried that "I used an original screw" argument to a Listed Buildings officer around here, you'd end up in very deep doo-doos.


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## pollys13 (10 Jul 2020)

" However, if you tried that "I used an original screw" argument to a Listed Buildings officer around here, you'd end up in very deep doo-doos. "
Yep, too clever by half.


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## Doug71 (10 Jul 2020)

Anyone tried the Triggers broom approach and gone for the "Yeah, last year I had to replace the sashes, this year I had to replace the frame but it's still the same window."


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## deema (10 Jul 2020)

Listed building are a whole subject in themselves. At the moment, the info suggests that he isn’t dealing with a listed building. I’m basing my comments on this basis. MikeG is right to highlight the importance of verifying it isn’t listed.


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## Doug71 (10 Jul 2020)

For me I find it easier and more enjoyable making stuff for listed buildings rather than for new builds or even normal replacements. The whole u value thing and part Q of the regs etc are a real pain for someone like me. I get much more pleasure from making a nice old style panel door with interesting mouldings than stressing over the u values of a modern, featureless front door.

Round here one of the building control officers can be a bit of a pain but the listed building people seem quite laid back, maybe that's my reason why.

Sorry for the thread drift.


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## HOJ (11 Jul 2020)

That would work":cazm7ywg said:


> 12 bespoke casements in three days and one day to fit? maybe i'm slow.


Me too!



MikeG.":cazm7ywg said:


> And I say again, "storm proof" windows have not been allowed on Listed Buildings since about the 1960s or earlier.


On the subject of listed buildings, I am making and replacing 10 "Storm proof" windows that were fitted in 1973 to a building listed in 1972 , in Suffolk, with "Storm proof" windows, with full listed building consent.


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