# Startrite 352E or Hammer N3800



## Phil Ryder (12 Mar 2014)

Hello everybody.

I am sure a band saw topic can be a hot topic and lots of people talk about them, but was wondering if anyone out there could help of advise me on those particular saws or has even direct experience with them, or can suggest a better option for max £1200?

My position is that I am setting up my little workshop and as a first and perhaps last bigger machine in that available space, it will be a band saw. 
why band saw? because I think it is a very versatile machine and quiet, well, not as loud as a table saw and now as quiet as a hand saw for example, but reasonable quiet.

I've been doing my research and budgeting and came down to the saws named above.

the only thing is that the Hammer N3800 won't take an 1" blade, which I thought should be the minimum for the saw I want to buy, as this machine should do jobs other machines would, should do. the Hammer has a bit more capacity in height and throat.

Does anyone think that there is a significant difference between a 20mm and a 25mm blade to achieve a relatively smooth and straight cut when resawing? or is it all down to the sharpness of the blade?

or does anyone has any other suggestion?

I live in the midlands, UK.

would appreciate some comments.

cheers,

Philipp.


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## deema (12 Mar 2014)

I have a Startrite 14S5, it can take a 3/4" blade which I often use to rip seasoned European oak up to 8" thick. The thing I like about the machine is that I can slow the blade down and with a 3 or 4 tpi it rips very happily everything I've thrown at it. It was secondhand and came with the original fence which is very good and has a really nice micro adjuster. The machine has solid metal blade guides which work very well and I have never seen the need to upgrade to bearing guides. The saw will cut most things with 5 speeds available. 

I have acquired some lignum vitae and plan on making my own blade guides.The main reason for making some lignum guides is that I don't have a full set of metal guides and the price of a set of spares is very high for what they are


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## beech1948 (12 Mar 2014)

A 352 will not adequately tension a 1" blade. I think 3/4" is about the max and then it will struggle.

I have a 352 and usually use upto 15mm wide blade and most often a 1/2".

Alan


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 Mar 2014)

How do you feel about 20Amp supply and non standard mitre slots?


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## Phil Ryder (12 Mar 2014)

Alan, do you have the newer 352 or the old one? 
just wondering why they state that it will take up to 1in blades...
If thats the case I might lean towards the hammer..

deema, the 14S5 looks sweet if its in nice and good condition. the different speeds make it attractive.

ROB, don't have one yet but will have 16-32amp a week after I'll pick up the phone to my sparky. not so sure what you mean by the non standard mitre slots. startrite having 2 and hammer 1? that it?


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## JustBen (12 Mar 2014)

My 2hp homemade bandsaw can cut 10" hardwood straight and smooth using a 3/4" blade.

The think I've found to help the most is the blade (Tuffsaws, of course)

I don't know what power the two BS you mention have but I bet it's more than 2hp so I would have thought 3/4" on those would be fine.

Ian at Tuffsaws may be able to help. He might know those Saws and what they are capable of.
After all, he speaks to people with bandsaws everyday.

It might be of help.


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 Mar 2014)

No...the Hammer has a proprietary slot width which is unique to Hammer. So instead of 3/4" which takes all the after market fences its their own standard. Of course the Hammer mitre fence is then a chargeable option at around £55. The Startrite has industry standard 3/4" slots.

Now its not such a biggy because lets face it a bandsaw is not a precision angle cutting tool so very few would bother to buy an after market fence. It just annoyed me a bit that they go non standard and then don't even provide a free mitre fence with the saw (which every other supplier does just about). Ironically, I don't believe startrite ship with a free mitre fence either but at least they have 3/4" slots.

The bandwheels and tyres on the hammer are excellent but the tensioning spring is quite wimpy so buyer beware on the published specs of the manufacturers in terms of max blade widths. Its safe to say that pretty much every published max, you can deduct an eighth or even quarter inch off to be in the real world. Startrite are known for their beefy tensioning assemblies so their's are most likely to be reasonable. But another poster said, he goes lighter than the spec says. Marketing people....they all want castrating!!!


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## Peter Sefton (12 Mar 2014)

Hi I have and use the Hammer N4400 on a daily basis this also has a max blade width of 20mm but I have never found this to be a problem on my more powerful machine. I have not used the Startrite but would offer up these comments from what I can see. 
They are both 2HP so the same power, not sure either would need a 20AMP supply my 4HP runs from a 16AMP 
The Startrite has a better/higher position for the dust extraction 
I think the Hammer guides will be better to set up and easier to adjust no tools required 
The Startrite fence is the old style Hammer one now superseded with the better high/low left and right handed newer version which I bought at a later date 
The Startrite does have a kick stop button, but I don't see the need for that on a bandsaw 

They might both be on display at the Midlands Woodworking show in a couple of weeks time http://www.nelton.co.uk/midlands-woodwo ... -show.html ring the guys and enquire if they are taking them, I find the best way to compare machines is side by side at a show. 

I will be demonstrating at the show come and say hello if you can make it. 

I would go for the Hammer as mine has been very good and I do love my Felder kit, but I am a Hammer convert (not salesman) but I will be demonstrating at their in house show on the 5th April for them and the school. 

Cheers and happy shopping Peter


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## beech1948 (12 Mar 2014)

Phil,

I have a 4yr old 352E, a 25+ yr old original 352. They are different in some ways but I feel after using my 352E for 2 yrs that my advice is about right.

Others may differ and I wait to hear from them.

Alan


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## Phil Ryder (12 Mar 2014)

cheers Ben.
homemade? wow! any pics?

both BS have 2hp.

Will get in touch with Ian. cheers for the tip!

so Rob, you are saying that even the N3800 won't hold a 20mm blade? that would be a shame.
cant really go for the n4400 because I still need a extraction system as my ctl26 probably isn't powerful enough.
any thought about that btw? what is the minimum extraction power you need for machines like this?


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## marcros (12 Mar 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":14tb4nhu said:


> No...the Hammer has a proprietary slot width which is unique to Hammer. So instead of 3/4" which takes all the after market fences its their own standard. Of course the Hammer mitre fence is then a chargeable option at around £55. The Startrite has industry standard 3/4" slots.
> !!!



Are the startrite slots standard depth though? I have a feeling not- certainly not on table saw threads I have been reading.


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 Mar 2014)

good question, no idea on that one


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 Mar 2014)

Phil Ryder":ily6qz27 said:


> so Rob, you are saying that even the N3800 won't hold a 20mm blade? that would be a shame.
> cant really go for the n4400 because I still need a extraction system as my ctl26 probably isn't powerful enough.
> any thought about that btw? what is the minimum extraction power you need for machines like this?



Not necessarily in the specific case of the Felder machines because I've never used one. I'm generalising in that most people report their bandsaws fail to tension correctly for the widest blade the manufacturer claims it can take by about 1/4" typically. I hear it time and time again. Startrite even make a big song and dance about the fact their huge tension spring assemblies have been tested to 20,000lb/sq inch in an effort to convince burn victims that there will be no tensioning problems. So it's a possibility but not a certainty and you would be wise to have the claims corroborated by objective customers so you can get to the truth behind the brochures.

Having said all this, both Startrite and Felder are very well regarded as industrial strength machines so whichever you choose you're not going to go too far wrong.


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## wallace (13 Mar 2014)

Have you thought about wadkin stuff, a BZB or a DR. I have a 30"DR only problem is its quite noisy


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Mar 2014)

All 3 phase though are they not?


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## Phil Ryder (13 Mar 2014)

thanks Bob. it was the first time yesterday that I hear that manufacturers are exaggerate about blade width. 
as said, good selling point to some but would they also stand up for a knackered machine if used properly? I guess not.
its a shame as the width was a selling point for me the whole time. hmmm...

only 1phase machines for me Wallace. and can't be bigger than a Hammer.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Mar 2014)

Phil.....I'm going through this myself right now as Ive just sold my Record Power BS300 with a view to upgrading to larger capacities and more robustness generally for cutting wood turning blanks direct from the log. If it helps here is my shortlist. I am currently favouring the RP BS400 because I want 13amp plus beef plus capacity. At only 10KG lighter than the Hammer, the BS 400 is a very sturdy machine as well as being £300 cheaper. I also was very impressed with my smaller 300, it cut very efficiently and never let me down over a 5 year period. Maybe this will help you..

Just click on the image to see it in sharp focus. I only put the 300 down so I could see the contrast with the capacities of the other machines. I've reviewed all except the 352 with visual detailed inspection and the 400 is a very very solid machine.

Lastly, a lot of people seem to overlook the 5 yr warranty from RP. That's a lot of peace of mind out into the future!!


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## Phil Ryder (13 Mar 2014)

hi Bob. thanks for the spread sheet. good to see everything lined up like this.
I saw the bs400 at the Tewkesbury show last week and for a while I thought thats the machine I'll get.
I think it is very good value for the money, and the show offer is £899.
this week the RP show is in kidderminster and I assume the same offer stands. 
now, I am in the position to get the 352E a bit cheaper and I don't mind to pay a little more for it.

did you think the table of the bs400 is as solid as a rock. just wondering how it would handle to cut down large logs.
I know the 352 and hammer are very solid.

and as Alan said that band saws dont take the blade width as advertised, will it influence your decision for the bs400?

also hammer takes 6-8weeks at the moment.......guess that tells me to take more time to make up my mind..


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Mar 2014)

Phil Ryder":2tev54kp said:


> hi Bob. thanks for the spread sheet. good to see everything lined up like this.
> I saw the bs400 at the Tewkesbury show last week and for a while I thought thats the machine I'll get.
> I think it is very good value for the money, and the show offer is £899.
> this week the RP show is in kidderminster and I assume the same offer stands.
> ...



Hi Phil

The BS400 table is undoubtedly solid, one of its main attractions in fact and one of the key issues that attracts me because of my primary need being wood turning blanks. Don't forget I come from the 300 which I only sold last weekend to a lovely chap on this very forum. The 300 table was already solid enough for logs, it was only the capacity under the guides I needed more of. So I'm 100% certain the 400 table is great. Record Power are known for their huge use of cast iron in all their tools so that's pretty much a no brainer in fact. If you look at the weight on the specs its considerably heavier than the 352. Now that's obviously also related to its overall size but believe me the table is very rigid indeed. A max width of 3/4" is fine for me even if its published max is 1" because again I'm not terribly fussed about perfectly straight cuts in planks cut from logs. I would see that step as a job for the planer after the drying process if the stock wont get used in turning. I've resawn 6" oak on the 300 many times with a 1/2" blade and although you go at a steady pace, it absolutely ate it no problems and that's only a 1 HP motor. I met with the Hammer team at Detling last Friday and he offered a deal on the 3800 of £1250 delivered. Mitre fence and wheel kit are extra. There's no doubt that is a solid machine but I personally don't like the non std mitre slot (though the 400 also has a proprietary one), don't like the 20amp supply, didn't rate the tension spring assembly, it seemed very wimpy. Did really rate the guide assemblies. They are toolless and very chunky, liked them a lot. Really didn't like the price as even with deal from the sales manager at the show, with wheel and mitre fence, near to £1400. Ouch. The 352 I like because it has all the robustness of Startrites. I just don't like the short changing on the capacities. If Startrite did a 16" bandsaw with a foot under the guides that was still 13amp...that would do it for me. But you jump from the 14" 352 to the 18" 502 or go down the 401 path which is over 2 grand because its industrial rated for continuous use. The 400 is so close in robustness to the startrites (you Know RP and Startrite are the same company I presume) that I'm sold.


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## wallace (13 Mar 2014)

I wouldn't rule out 3 phase stuff. Bandsaws have small motors so in theory you could get something industrial and then get a vfd which would run off a 13a supply and give you the benefits of breaking and various speed for ripping and such. All could be achieved within your budget


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Mar 2014)

I think my problem being a hobbyist is that 3phase just seems a step too far. I have zero experience with 3 phase and the machines are enormous. Many, the wadkins etc are obviously really old and I have an irrational and possibly groundless (I accept) fear that spares would be difficult to find etc etc. It's just a whole "other world" when you go 3 phase that I'm way out of my comfort zone with. What I dread is that instead of just getting on with the job, I'm going to spend many weekends farting about getting the thing working properly. Fettling I don't mind but becoming a 3 phase rebuild mechanic is a route I don't want to take. Also just on a practical level, they weight a flippin ton. Not sure I've seen one yet that was under 200Kg's and many are over 500


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Mar 2014)

By the way Phil...have you seen this (3 phase mind)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261421965872? ... EBIDX%3AIT


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## Phil Ryder (13 Mar 2014)

Rob, I'm with you there on the 1phase boat. my workshop is 2,4m by 5,5m. dus not worth going for that kind of level.
the only upgrade i can afford and in my opinion is sensible, is a one phase 16-32 amp arrangement.
the other thing is, and that is the reason I wanted to push for a 1inch blade, a rigid table and power, that I won't have the space for more machines like a planer/thicknesser etc.
also needing to take in consideration that I live in a neighbourhood, not ideal, but hey, I'm dealing with what I've got. 
A benchdrill/mortiser would be on my list and possibly a little table saw, but thats it spacewise. the rest will have to go under my benchplanes and chisels.

I did see that one cheers. but three phase...

question: would you go for the N4400 or a used Startrite 401E ?

Wallace, I spoke to my sparky. he said I would look at at least a grand to have 3phace in my house...first I need to win in the lottery.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Mar 2014)

I would always favour a startrite but I'm from near Sheffield originally  

I know Felder have a great name and that was why the Hammer machines were in scope for my shortlist but if I were spending in the £2K vicinity I would go for the startrite. The trouble is, that 401 is way too expensive for hobby use. Its just a waste of money because I would never get the advantage of its continuous use rated motor as an amateur. I need sturdy and capacity....but not at any cost. I cant find any 2nd hand 401's whereas Hammer and 352's are coming up on ebay. I think I'm going to attend the Kidderminster RP road show tomorrow as I can see the 352 standing next to a BS400 and really visualise the differences. Its a 2 hour drive for me but I don't want to (fruit of your choice) this up.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Mar 2014)

Now that's what I call a bandsaw 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/bandsaw-/2311 ... 35d33a8573


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## Phil Ryder (13 Mar 2014)

hi Peter. thanks for your comment.

funny we meet again on the forum. remember me? the austrian who came to see you at your school with my pregnant wife about a year ago?
never mind if not.

austrian, yes, thats another reason the hammer attracts my attention. 
are you saying you've got both the n3800 and the N4400? and are you saying the n4400 will take the 1 inch blade without a problem?

it has been said that the tension/spring mechanism on the hammer is a bit whimpy. whats your opinion on that?

I might as well come up to the show and see you. its mentioned and who knows, perhaps I made up my mind by then already.
how long did you wait for them to be delivered?

best,

Philipp.


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## Phil Ryder (13 Mar 2014)

@Rob haha!!!!good one! 
if I'd get this one, I'd dig a river next to it with a water wheel to fit the picture.

make sure the 352 is really there. I spoke to Dave at kidderminster and he said that there will only be RP machines, no startrites.
wouldn't want you to waste 4 hours of petrol.


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## Phil Ryder (13 Mar 2014)

I meant if you could get the 401E for the same price as the n4400.


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## Peter Sefton (13 Mar 2014)

Hi Phil 
I do remember you, your wife and your spider gate?, good to hear you are still woodworking. 
I haven't used the Hammer 3800 but have had the N4400 for 8 years or more, the max size of the blade is 20mm which is in the machine 90% of the time. I find this big enough for all the work we undertake in the workshop. I never un tension the bandsaw at night as some people recommend and have never had any problems with tension or tracking issues. For me two of the most important factors are quick blade change over and easy guide set up, size is important but only if it has the power to run it. For me its been a very reliable bit of kit and worth the 2 month wait. 
Hope to see you at one of the shows Peter


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## wallace (14 Mar 2014)

Heres one for you http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-bandsa ... 35d34fdaf3 
Phil you don't need 3 phase to run 3 phase machines. All you need is one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-QUALITY- ... 19ce0450b5 Then wire it up and off you play. Its a bursgreen so not as heavy as the old stuff, spares are still available and the build quality is there.


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## Phil Ryder (14 Mar 2014)

really? why did my sparky said I would?
I'll look into it. still somehow I am tending towards a new machine...


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## wallace (14 Mar 2014)

I have thirteen 3 phase machines all run off a static converter which is wired into its own MCB in the consumer unit. If you only have one 3 phase machine it is easier to just get a variable frequency drive (VFD) which could be wired from 3 pin plug. This way it opens a whole new world of machinery which is of better quality more powerfull and with a vfd a doddle to resell if you ever wanted.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Mar 2014)

I must say the world of 3 phase is a very interesting one. Lots of classic old beautys which have an appeal all of their own leave alone the job they're supposed to do. I'm sure it must be quite easy to get seduced into the restoration of some of those classic monuments to cast iron.


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## Phil Ryder (14 Mar 2014)

so Bob, did you go down to kidderminster?


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## Phil Ryder (14 Mar 2014)

I'll have a look into it Wallace.
cheers.


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## wallace (14 Mar 2014)

I call it an illness, at the moment I'm suffering from a very bad case of wadkinitis. 3 years ago I had lots of little tin type machines then I got a pk sawbench which weighs in at 850kg. Now I have 13 lumps of wadkin in my workshop, most have been restored. And then I have another 3 machines in my garden.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Mar 2014)

wallace":cye2o8vl said:


> I call it an illness, at the moment I'm suffering from a very bad case of wadkinitis. 3 years ago I had lots of little tin type machines then I got a pk sawbench which weighs in at 850kg. Now I have 13 lumps of wadkin in my workshop, most have been restored. And then I have another 3 machines in my garden.



Right there....that's why I'm avoiding that route.....I just know I'll get sucked into it too


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## Phil Ryder (14 Mar 2014)

I think I'm going to attend the Kidderminster RP road show tomorrow as I can see the 352 standing next to a BS400 and really visualise the differences. Its a 2 hour drive for me but I don't want to (fruit of your choice) this up.[/quote]

any news?????


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## Phil Ryder (14 Mar 2014)

i'm not so good with the quoting I think......


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Mar 2014)

Phil Ryder":2p2v3x01 said:


> so Bob, did you go down to kidderminster?



Didn't need to....called them in the morning and had long chat with the Bandsaw guru from Record. The bottom line is I've bought the BS400. The 352 just isn't the right saw for my needs. The 352 has lower capacities than I need, and is aimed really at a small joinery workshop. The motor is rated for that environment but in terms of heft the 400 wins hands down. Bigger capacities, more accessible guides, heavier machine, decent cast iron table, fence, trunion and bandwheels plus huge tensioning assembly. Even the extraction has a natty little pipe running from the primary outlet to just under the lower blade guides to try and get the dust before the wheel fans it out inside the cab. Don't forget I had a 300 for nearly 5 years before this decision and I never had any problems with it and I cut a lot of thick and green stock with it. The 300 has a 1HP motor and it never once stalled on me, in fact it never even slowed down. So the 400 has a 2HP motor as well as all the additional beef and cast iron and I just know its going to cope with thicker green timber. 

There was a thread somewhere that accused Record of badge engineering. They do do that on the 10, 12 and 250 but from the 300 above the machines are unique to Record. The penny really dropped with me today, its been staring me in the face. I need to stop being so influenced by other peoples feedback and just trust what my own experiences tell me. My 300, at half the power of this saw never let me down and I threw some very different jobs at it. This saw has it all for me including the lack of need to rig up a 16amp supply, a 5 yr warranty, capacity, heft etc etc. 

So I was on the blower to Ian ordering the 1" Ripper blade (1.3tpi). That'll see off the fallen ash tree that's currently adorning my garden. Plus 1/2" 3tpi for radius cuts for bowl blanks and finally a nice 6tpi for some normal cutting of proper wood, just in case I ever actually finish disposing of this ash tree and start making furniture again  .

I cant wait to stick that ripper on....it sounds like an animal. Ian says its one of the blades that get used in mobile sawmills.


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## Phil Ryder (14 Mar 2014)

cool! good for you Bob!! congrats!!!!
I'm sure you'll enjoy it massively. please let me know how you are getting on with it. 
especially if the machine manages the 1" blade well.
how long to deliver?
cheers,
Philipp


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Mar 2014)

Late next week. 

Thanks Phil


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Mar 2014)

You know you're welcome to come and push a piece of Ash through any time


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## Phil Ryder (14 Mar 2014)

I'll accept your invitation.
only not sure where you live. thought you said sheffield but your data says hampshire. opposite directions from leamington.
either way, if i'm in the neighbourhood, I'll give you a bell.
cheers.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Mar 2014)

Hampshire Phil. About 7 miles from Reading. I was born in Rotherham that's the connection to Yorkshire. I'll let you know when the big one arrives


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## Phil Ryder (14 Mar 2014)




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## Phil Ryder (5 Apr 2014)

hello all!!


So, Bob!!
how is it sawing?
did your BS400 settle in alright?
after a long back and forth I went for the.........N4400.
I had to dig deep for that one and with the help of some retraining funds I could afford the one I really wanted.
just waiting for sparky to install the leads for me on monday. can't wait !!!!!
with it I went for the Jet DC1100A dust collector which will be sitting in the cellar out of the way.
at the moment I'm building a garden wood storage/slide/house/swing/climbing frame for my boys and guess what I am thinking many a times,
bum, wouldn't it be really handy if the band saw would start up, ha!!

anyway, hope you are good.

best,
Philipp.


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## orchard (20 Oct 2014)

Fantastic thread guys, thank you 

Still hasn't helped me choose between a Startrite 502/Jet 18Q/Hammer N4400 mind.........

Any further learned input for a newbie would be greatly appreciated please !


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## Wizard9999 (20 Oct 2014)

orchard":ibneevux said:


> Fantastic thread guys, thank you
> 
> Still hasn't helped me choose between a Startrite 502/Jet 18Q/Hammer N4400 mind.........
> 
> Any further learned input for a newbie would be greatly appreciated please !



Don't stop there Orchard, R.O.Bob's bandsaw journey carried on here...

record-power-bs400-bandsaw-review-t78828.html

Happy reading.


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## orchard (20 Oct 2014)

Wizard9999":3rgvufyh said:


> orchard":3rgvufyh said:
> 
> 
> > Fantastic thread guys, thank you
> ...



Hahaha, thanks for the link mate


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

Just as an update. 7 months on and I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever about buying the BS400. It has performed flawlessly. I've had the 1" 1.3tpi ripper blade from Tuffsaw's installed almost constantly since the start and its just a total and utter animal for slicing and dicing green timber off the log. I also really like the jockey wheel kit. Very simple to move around whereas the smaller bandsaw's tend to have the pedal arrangement integrated with the stand. The wheels on those kits are not man enough to hold the weight of the machines and eventually buckle after being used for a while.


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

You're really not helping Bob, nor is the lack of Jet/Hammer/Startrite contributors... 

Irrationally, I really don't want to opt for a RP machine, however it's 2/3rd the cost of any other i've been looking at and possibly better...

Thanks for all your hard work on both threads.


*ps please don't ban me if i end up with a hammer N4400 



Random Orbital Bob":18hemdls said:


> Just as an update. 7 months on and I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever about buying the BS400. It has performed flawlessly. I've had the 1" 1.3tpi ripper blade from Tuffsaw's installed almost constantly since the start and its just a total and utter animal for slicing and dicing green timber off the log. I also really like the jockey wheel kit. Very simple to move around whereas the smaller bandsaw's tend to have the pedal arrangement integrated with the stand. The wheels on those kits are not man enough to hold the weight of the machines and eventually buckle after being used for a while.


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## Peter Sefton (21 Oct 2014)

Just to say I have the Hammer N4400 in the school workshop which has given us 8 years of good service.
A very happy customer with no regrets.


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Peter Sefton":w5ib87o1 said:


> Just to say I have the Hammer N4400 in the school workshop which has given us 8 years of good service.
> A very happy customer with no regrets.


Thanks Peter, what do you think to its resaw capabilities, given that it doesn't accept 1inch blades please?


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

orchard":3pfykx0c said:


> You're really not helping Bob, nor is the lack of Jet/Hammer/Startrite contributors...
> 
> Irrationally, I really don't want to opt for a RP machine, however it's 2/3rd the cost of any other i've been looking at and possibly better...
> 
> ...



LOL......I wont ban you....you're safe 

Can I just ask one question which should cut straight to the nub of this:

Are you a hobbyist (which includes extreme enthusiasm and is in no way demeaning on any level) or do you expect industrial level use? The reason for that question is that the specification differences between the BS400 and either the Felder or Startrite kit is almost entirely down to how much use is intended. I think anyone arguing that the BS400 is "better" then either a Felder or Startrite is possibly a bit of a looney because those machines are industrial grade bandsaws. However, and its a big however, the BS400 has the same IF NOT MORE capacity than the Hammer/Startrite entry level saw's and yet it's significantly less expensive.

At the very end of my machinations on this (which were VERY thorough I promise you) I realised one universal truism which is there was no way on God's green earth I would use a bandsaw to the extent that it needed to be industrially rated. Peter runs a furniture school where students are using his plant on a daily basis, year in year out. He NEEDS a Hammer because its going to last. All of these machines cut well, if you don't believe that take a real close look at the review I did and double click the images of the sawn timber. The Record cuts absolutely flawlessly every time as along a you have a decent quality blade installed etc. But the Hammer and Startrite are more likely to last longer given a heavier and more frequent workload and that's why they cost a dam site more.

So it comes down to a simple choice one which is practical and measurable, one which is social and psychological (what I call bandsaw snobbery). No 1, do you need that continuous use rating? No 2, do you feel more "comfortable" with a higher status machine like a Hammer or Startrite that is European made.

Once I'd overcome the status mental wrestle I went through the choice for me was crystal clear because I do want the capacity (16" and 12" under the guides), I do want a 1" blade, I do want 13amp and I don't want continuous rated motor, hence the BS400 hit the spot. Once it arrived and I used it and it completely destroyed any doubts I had by its outstanding performance, the sort of regret eddy current of not buying a Hammer evaporated. In other words I half expected buyers remorse but in fact didn't experience any.

That "exorcising of the European made demon" makes me objectively narrow the basis of decision down to the specs and price only because I now trust the brand completely.


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## Peter Sefton (21 Oct 2014)

orchard":3744r9b6 said:


> Peter Sefton":3744r9b6 said:
> 
> 
> > Just to say I have the Hammer N4400 in the school workshop which has given us 8 years of good service.
> ...



I must say I don't do a lot of Deeping re saw work with timber over 7", not because the bandsaw won't cope just because it can be an expensive way of making fire wood.

Here is some 9" Cedar of Lebanon I cut recently with no problems using a 19mm wide blade. 

https://www.facebook.com/woodworkerswor ... =1&theater

The quality/sharpeness and TIP of the blade is all inportant again speak to Ian at Tuff Saws.

The other considerations are how much power has your bandsaw got, how high is your fence and how good are the guides and how well you set it up!

It looks like the BS400 does have a good guide system and should be quick and easy to set up. 

A lot of these saws are made in the same factory or do have the same components, the fence on the BS400 is the same as the Hammer when I bought it, it has now been upgraded with a new style which I have also upgraded to.

Cheers Peter


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Right Bob, i've almost had enough of this logic business, which, quite frankly, isn't helping, i've a good mind to flag this for the mod's to sort out 

I'm a newbie, but have done enough to realise a BS's versatility and importance in a small workshop, and as such, i'd like to buy once and get a good machine that will last and be of sufficient quality and accuracy to take an essential and pivotal role as I learn, and for future use, which may well be low-volume artisanal as we intend to buy a small farm with wood in the next couple of years. However, if resawing reaches a certain volume/size of timber, a horizontal BS will be used too...

One thing before I answer your question, I was looking at (before the RP BS400 spanner got lobbed) Jet JWBS-18Q, Startrite 502E, Minimax S45N, and the Hammer N4400, which aren't all entry level, but your points are still as valid as ever 

_So it comes down to a simple choice one which is practical and measurable, one which is social and psychological (what I call bandsaw snobbery). *No 1*, do you need that continuous use rating? *No 2*, do you feel more "comfortable" with a higher status machine like a Hammer or Startrite that is European made.
_
1. No, it would never be used in an industrial capacity where someone was stationed on the machine continually BS'n 8hrs a day, 5 days a week...although there may be times when i have/want to do a lot of max depth accurate resawing. BTW, does the RP's motor have thermo-protection on the motor please ? Is it a soft-start like the Startrite ?

2. Yes, yes I do ! Ideally i'd like an old Wadkin, but investing in 3-phase, moving it in a few years, and having little space at the moment conspires against this ! Even though we don't have a lot of money to fund this, i'd rather (intuitively) buy an industrial model that was accurate and reliable, future-proof regarding usage, and was capable of taking what it's claimed to be capable of, and enjoys itself whilst doing it!

Yes, it looks like the RP ticks most of my boxes and is less expensive, hence i'm currently resisting what seems like such a good deal, although Mrs orchard thinks you're ace !


As an aside, disregarding the motors, how would you rate the chassis strength/build quality of the five models above please ? 

Many thanks for your help and time 



Random Orbital Bob":37umjbn8 said:


> orchard":37umjbn8 said:
> 
> 
> > You're really not helping Bob, nor is the lack of Jet/Hammer/Startrite contributors...
> ...


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Thanks Peter ! 



Peter Sefton":mswzgb2d said:


> orchard":mswzgb2d said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Sefton":mswzgb2d said:
> ...


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

I'm not helping am I 

You sooooooo remind me of me when I was making this decision and your shortlist (minus the minimax) is almost identical to mine. You know the reason I posted this was because I didn't want people to have to suffer the decision making agony I went through 

The BS does have soft start like the Startrite. No idea about the heat override (but don't forget that lovely 5 year warranty!.........know I'm not helping......Hi Mrs Orchard by the way, imagine how many holidays that price difference could buy....sheesh ). On chassis size, that was also a biggy for me because it is all related to beam strength. You cant cut straight if your beam strength is poor and the three most direct contributors to it are the tension forces in the chassis, the tension on the blade via the tensioning assembly and the blade itself. I personally eyeballed and closely inspected all the saws on my shortlist and was comfortable that every one of them had enough mass in their design to withstand the forces on the blade. Startrite even make some claim in their collateral that if I recall correctly, their tensioning spring is tested to 20,000 lb's per sq inch.

I know you want one of the European machines....and if you feel comfortable denying your good lady wife, who has shown you nothing but devotion and love throughout your marriage, then you should get one


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## custard (21 Oct 2014)

You're on to a winner here, in that you'll be well pleased whatever you choose. Amongst bandsaws at this level there really aren't too many dogs, it's not like contractor table saws where there are some real shockers to be avoided.

I've owned a Record BS300 and now have a Hammer N4400, I've also used a few different Startrites, provided the blade is good and the machine's correctly set up then they're all capable of excellent work. 

As to the question about 20mm vs 25mm blades, it's a non issue, you won't notice any difference in real life applications. In any event, you should take manufacturers ratings with a huge pinch of salt!


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

I couldn't agree more.....with bandsaws you sort of pass a threshold of quality once you reach about £900 and upwards and all your shortlist are gems in their own right.


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Hahaha, I sense curious admixture of negative psychology and good old fashioned guilt, lol !
My noggin's fairly fried now, next step's to see how close sales want to get to the Record !

Thanks again ! 



Random Orbital Bob":25yxkutu said:


> I'm not helping am I
> 
> You sooooooo remind me of me when I was making this decision and your shortlist (minus the minimax) is almost identical to mine. You know the reason I posted this was because I didn't want people to have to suffer the decision making agony I went through
> 
> ...


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

-oh, and if anyone's looking for a used Hammer:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hammer-band-s ... 418900aeaa


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## Wizard9999 (21 Oct 2014)

orchard":2i3qe48d said:


> My noggin's fairly fried now, next step's to see how close sales want to get to the Record !



Orchard

If I understand your comment correctly I think you are saying you are going to see what the best price is you can get Hammer to go to, so you can better take a view on the cost gap between the RP BS400 and the Hammer N3800. If that is the case thought I would mention I ordered my BS400 at teh recent D&M tool show and whilst Record Power show them on their website at £999, they were selling them at the show for £799 incl. free delivery. If they were doing that deal then I'd be surprised if they don't do the same at the Tewkesbury Saw show on 28th / 29th October. So I think any comparison of the Hammer should be versus the BS400 at that price.

Terry.


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Wizard9999":3agrxqg8 said:


> orchard":3agrxqg8 said:
> 
> 
> > My noggin's fairly fried now, next step's to see how close sales want to get to the Record !
> ...



What is this, The Terry and Bob tag-team ? 

Fair point Terry, and if that's the case, they'll be half the reduced price and delivery Felder offered, once i've factored in £150 quid for a sparky and 2m spur to accommodate 20Amps.......

Thanks a bunch lads!


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

always like to help Orchard....how is Mrs Orchard by the way? Packing yet


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

we're saving you from yourself really....


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":101tsz45 said:


> always like to help Orchard....how is Mrs Orchard by the way? Packing yet


Hahaha, not quite yet thanks, she may yet have to sell her car to pay for a Hammer


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":1sxncv4k said:


> we're saving you from yourself really....


I know. Thank you 

Btw, what's the longest period you've resawn >9 inches hardwood for please, and how did the motor react ?


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

Orchard....have you actually read my review (wagging finger in ticking off a naughty child kind of way)?

OK, I'll assume you've just forgotten the bit where it clearly states that when I was resawing 12" Ash WET logs that the motor didn't even emit any change in tone denoting it was even under any load let alone slow down. This was in truth one of the things that really surprised me as I firstly thought it wouldn't even cut a 12" green log, then when it did I thought it would struggle. When it went through it like a knife through butter I was genuinely flabbergasted. I just didn't expect it to be so easy and effortless.

That session wasn't very long....only 10 minutes or so. I've done it many times since for up to an hour a time and its never blinked.


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Haha, I always read you posts first Bob, however, in the light of our recent discussion, I think I ought to re-read both threads. Besides, it was quite late when I got onto the RP specific thread, not that I can excuse myself from being a whopper, although our cat ate the notes I made 
Right, back to your thread 



Random Orbital Bob":2ro4jxub said:


> Orchard....have you actually read my review (wagging finger in ticking off a naughty child kind of way)?
> 
> OK, I'll assume you've just forgotten the bit where it clearly states that when I was resawing 12" Ash WET logs that the motor didn't even emit any change in tone denoting it was even under any load let alone slow down. This was in truth one of the things that really surprised me as I firstly thought it wouldn't even cut a 12" green log, then when it did I thought it would struggle. When it went through it like a knife through butter I was genuinely flabbergasted. I just didn't expect it to be so easy and effortless.
> 
> That session wasn't very long....only 10 minutes or so. I've done it many times since for up to an hour a time and its never blinked.


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## no idea (21 Oct 2014)

Just to throw in that I considered similar bandsaws (for hobby use) and went for the Record Power BS400. Why? A few reasons:

1) Good price (D&M show last year)
2) A good long chat with the Record guys at the show and a demonstration on the smaller BS350 convinced me that a BS400 would be more then I would ever need.
3) The realisation that the savings I'd make with this over a Startrite/Jet/Hammer could be used to fund other toys.


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

ah....the old "cat ate my homework" chestnut eh? I've heard it all before old son


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

actually noidea (& Terry) raise a good point which is that the way RP work is they attend a bunch of shows throughout the country. At each of these shows they offer a "show special" price which is always about a £100 less then their other deal which is usually a seasonal offer. They also pretty much always throw in free delivery. This means that if you buy from a show you get the retail down from £1000 to £800 (seasonal £100 plus show £100) and free delivery so its really about £300 less than a regular dealer.

I had a personal quotation from Hammer for the N3800 and it made blood ooze out of my eyes! Nothing was free (except he did eventually offer delivery after being brutalised by my negotiating). What really bugged me was the mitre fence was an extra £55....that's just mean. Delivery time was enormous, many weeks. It was all just so arrogant and the attitude was "why on earth wouldn't you want a Hammer" that that alone put me off them. If they had really fought for the business I might have coughed up the extra £600 they wanted. On the other hand, that's a Domino :shock:


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":3phn41zk said:


> actually noidea (& Terry) raise a good point which is that the way RP work is they attend a bunch of shows throughout the country. At each of these shows they offer a "show special" price which is always about a £100 less then their other deal which is usually a seasonal offer. They also pretty much always throw in free delivery. This means that if you buy from a show you get the retail down from £1000 to £800 (seasonal £100 plus show £100) and free delivery so its really about £300 less than a regular dealer.
> 
> I had a personal quotation from Hammer for the N3800 and it made blood ooze out of my eyes! Nothing was free (except he did eventually offer delivery after being brutalised by my negotiating). What really bugged me was the mitre fence was an extra £55....that's just mean. Delivery time was enormous, many weeks. It was all just so arrogant and the attitude was "why on earth wouldn't you want a Hammer" that that alone put me off them. If they had really fought for the business I might have coughed up the extra £600 they wanted. On the other hand, that's a Domino :shock:


I'm with you Bob, £600 is a lot of money for me, although so's $800-1k, and I don't want to spend that and end up with a Silverline-like door-stop, hence my caution/scepticism.
5 year guarantee rather than a one year though.....


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## Hickorystick (21 Oct 2014)

Hi Orchard
I'm taking a similar view to you. (see my thread in the Tools Review board - New Workshop choices)
I have been pretty well set on the N440 since I went to the Tool show in Newark back in April. I saw the Hammers there and was impressed with the quality of build however I do think that Bob et al have strong arguments, not least the price one. 
I once did speak to a fairly arrogant salesman there who was very kindly going to offer me a huge 3% discount on a N4400. I tried to sound grateful and hung up. Having said that I had Felder on the phone today chasing business so I know they are keen. This guy was much better today and is preparing some big discounts at the Harrogate Show in November. Terry gave me the nudge about this thread and suggested that we might get a even better deal if buying 2 which is true enough and might be worth a call to test their reaction. If your interested let me know and we could test the water...
And if it works don't blame me for any marital issues !!


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## dickm (21 Oct 2014)

How about an ex-school 352 for £150? No chance, I got there first........................


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Oct 2014)

That was my alternative solution ie the 2nd hand market for the industrial rated machines. I observed the 2nd hand channels for some months and in the end gave up. There was one Hammer that came up and it was still very expensive so no real advantage. Tons of really old Startrite 352's are always on e bay but they don't have the bigger capacities I wanted.


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## orchard (21 Oct 2014)

Hickorystick":gvizhk8h said:


> Hi Orchard
> I'm taking a similar view to you. (see my thread in the Tools Review board - New Workshop choices)
> I have been pretty well set on the N440 since I went to the Tool show in Newark back in April. I saw the Hammers there and was impressed with the quality of build however I do think that Bob et al have strong arguments, not least the price one.
> I once did speak to a fairly arrogant salesman there who was very kindly going to offer me a huge 3% discount on a N4400. I tried to sound grateful and hung up. Having said that I had Felder on the phone today chasing business so I know they are keen. This guy was much better today and is preparing some big discounts at the Harrogate Show in November. Terry gave me the nudge about this thread and suggested that we might get a even better deal if buying 2 which is true enough and might be worth a call to test their reaction. If your interested let me know and we could test the water...
> And if it works don't blame me for any marital issues !!



Thanks for the heads-up mate, although i'm still not sure where i'm going with this yet, and we'd have to factor in extra for one extra delivery too 
Everyone was great(ish) that i've spoken with today, especially Hammer, who promptly phoned me back with an offer - btw their lead-times can be relatively short at the moment because they've pre-ordered a certain amount in stages over the coming months apparently


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## orchard (27 Oct 2014)

...still none the wiser here, as the Mrs. agrees that we don't ever need to go on vacation together again ever (and that if we're spending £800-1k, we may as well spend more if we need to to ensure the engineering's exactly what's needed and future-proof) i'm torn between:

Startrite 502E : like the table size, build's reputed to be solid, soft-start single-phase, so no sparky investment when we'll be moving in a year or two, put off by 'agricultural guides' -should I be ?

MINIMAX S45N : Think it may be a little light for max re-saw depth, cost+sparky could send me too far over budget.

Hammer N4400: Seems very good, although small-ish table, relatively

Felder FB510: Part of me's saying step-up from a Hammer, get an improved machine, extraction design, table, and over-spec for my future resawing needs.

RP BS400: Don't know much about this machine, anyone know of any decent reviews please ?




*Seriously though, the BS400's still in the mix, and would save a lot of cash........................


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## orchard (27 Oct 2014)

This would be my first choice if I wasn't moving again:


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