# What finish over Vandyke crystals?



## oakfield (7 Jul 2012)

I need to darken some oak for a bed I am making. I am planning on mixing up some Vandyke crystals to get the shade I need. 

What finish can I put over the top? It's for an aged look so I don't think a varnish or lacquer would look right so how about a clear wax, or hardwax oil?

Also, I was thinking of using sanding sealer (for the first time) is this a good idea and at what stage should it be applied?

Thanks,
Mark.


----------



## marcus (7 Jul 2012)

Oil and wax would look good. If you go this route, no need for sanding sealer. 

By the way, don't know if you know this trick but adding some washing soda to the van dyke mix makes a lovely and more natural colour. It's a chemical reaction with the tanin in the oak. I tend to get most of the darkening with the soda and add a bit of van dyke to the mix just to make it a bit richer. If you have a go with this remember that the soda takes a while to work, its not an instant effect. And do lots of experiments with scraps. 

Also ( sorry if you know all this) dont forget to raise grain with water and sand before using water based stains. 

Cheers Marcus


----------



## oakfield (10 Jul 2012)

Hi Marcus,

Thanks for your help. It has been very useful.

I have had a bit of a play with some scraps and am pleased with the results.



marcus":pchre78u said:


> Oil and wax would look good. If you go this route, no need for sanding sealer.


do you mean using oil with wax over the top? Is this 'better' than just a sanding sealer and wax?

Thanks,
Mark


----------



## marcus (10 Jul 2012)

I would use danish oil (at least three coats) with wax on top once the oil has had a couple of days to go off properly. It should last better than wax over sanding sealer... Trick with getting a good finish with Danish oil is to immediately wipe it off very throughly as soon as you apply it. Leaving it on for even two minutes before wiping off is too long....


----------



## RogerS (12 Jul 2012)

I hate Danish Oil. Why not go for a more modern product ?


----------



## marcus (12 Jul 2012)

Because he specifically said he was looking for an aged look and didn't want a varnish or lacquer.


----------



## Lofty (12 Jul 2012)

Hi Marcus,

I am interested in your comment about using Washing soda with Vandyke crystals. What exactly do you do? Mix the two together or use them separately? What sort of quantities? I make copies of old English furniture and have used VD as the basis for the colouring but I have found it difficult to get that old age look that I would like. I would be grateful for any ideas.

Thanks, Mike


----------



## RogerS (12 Jul 2012)

By aged look, does the OP mean silvered...as oak does as it weathers? because if he does Danish Oil will give it that lovely orange-silvered look.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2012)

I read an article some twenty years ago written by someone whose relative made counterfeit oak furniture that was so good it was sold to museums as being genuine. He hung oak over a pig sty - the ammonia from the urine coloured the oak - he actually put tables, dressers and large furniture in with the pigs, so they used it as scratching posts this actually coloured it and wore edges and corners off, simulating wear and age. I shall have to try human urine on oak sometime.


----------



## marcros (12 Jul 2012)

phil.p":cmta61jz said:


> I read an article some twenty years ago written by someone whose relative made counterfeit oak furniture that was so good it was sold to museums as being genuine. He hung oak over a pig sty - the ammonia from the urine coloured the oak -. I shall have to try human urine on oak sometime.



or just ammonia?


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2012)

I haven't got any ammonia but I've plenty of p...!


----------



## marcus (13 Jul 2012)

Hi Mike,

I mix the soda and van dyke together; be aware when doing test pieces that it can take overnight before the soda has had the full darkening effect it's going to. This mixture can make a very nice colour if you get most of the darkening from the soda and add just a little Van dyke for some tone. I would mix up the soda and use that alone on the test pieces to find a strength that gives you almost all the darkening you want, then add the van dyke to get the final result. NB occasionally, using chemicals (ie the soda) to colour timber can give a blotchy look. Your test pieces, if they're from the same batch of timber, should give you an indication as to whether this is likely to happen or not.

A good trick in applying water stains and dyes is to dampen the timber first. This helps in avoiding problems with overlapping brush strokes and allows you to apply extra stain in streaks along the grain to avoid an unnatural, too-uniform look. Don't let the timber dry out in patches (a mister bottle helps with this) until you have finished applying the stain. If you use this approach you will need a darker mixture than you would otherwise use as it will be diluted by the water already on the surface. Lots of test pieces and lots of experimentation is the key!

For the most authentic aged look the timber needs to be oxidised (which is what happens to timber left to age naturally). Nitric acid is the best way to do this, but its nasty, nasty stuff. Often it goes too far with the darkening and then you have to pull it back with bleach (hydrogen peroxide) which is also nasty, nasty stuff, although less nasty than the nitric. This gives an authentic aged look. 

The amonia treatment — ie a dish of amonia (again, nasty stuff!) in a sealed plastic tent with the furniture for a day or two — will give an authentic 'old' look on oak. This only works on timber with a lot of tanin in it. I believe that this is the same basic effect as the washing soda (which also reacts with the tanin) but I may be wrong about this.

Don't think about trying any of these if you don't know what you're doing with dangerous chemicals - the danger is real.... I use them in antique restoration but I wouldn't use them on the scale required for new work (except perhaps the amonia if I was doing reproduction oak furniture....). For me the washing soda and Van Dyke is a reasonable and practical compromise.

Regarding the silvered look (which you tend to get on aged exterior timber, not really on indoor furniture ) you can simulate it very well by dissolving wire wool in vinegar for a few days, then applying the liquid, perhaps bleaching afterwards.

Cheers,

Marcus


----------



## Lofty (13 Jul 2012)

Marcus, 
thanks for all of that information. I will certainly give the washing soda a try. What would you use for a finish? I have used mostly shellac based products (Mark Finney's and Liberon easy French polish) applied with a mop but I don't always get the depth to the finish that I would like. It seems a bit variable too. Perhaps that is down to different wood (all European oak)?

Mike


----------



## marcus (13 Jul 2012)

Mike, it very much depends on the piece. I suppose the easy answer if you want it to look as authentic as possible is to use the finishes that would have been used on that type of piece, ie 

1) French Polish (the only way to get the full depth of a real French polish finish is to do real French polishing I'm afraid). Having said that it's not as hard to learn as some French Polishers would have you believe...

2) Oil and wax. Danish oil or, perhaps better still, many coats of Liberon boiled linseed oil will give a nice finish. Liberon is the only boiled linseed I know of that is _actually_ boiled rather than having chemical driers added.

3) Wax on its own - very hard work and not particularly hard wearing


----------



## Lofty (13 Jul 2012)

Thanks Marcus. I have tried Danish oil but not too impressed. I have been reading about boiled linseed oil recently and did think I would give it a go. I will get some Liberon on your recommendation. Real French polishing is something I have been meaning to try for some time but never got round to, perhaps I will move it up the tuit list!
Thanks again for your help.

Mike


----------



## mrpercysnodgrass (15 Jul 2012)

oakfield":1kb1z85u said:


> I need to darken some oak for a bed I am making. I am planning on mixing up some Vandyke crystals to get the shade I need.
> 
> What finish can I put over the top? It's for an aged look so I don't think a varnish or lacquer would look right so how about a clear wax, or hardwax oil?
> 
> ...



Hi Mark,

Van dyke is a great stain to use, it is so versatile and just about the only non toxic stain on the market. Depending on your project, you can use just about anything over the top of it so using sanding sealer is fine. I have added a few pics of a pair of hall chairs I made recently for a client who wanted to make up their set of six chairs into a set of eight. Although I bashed them a bit I did all of the antiqueing with van dyke, made up to a very strong solution, brushed on then faded out and moved around a bit with a mixture of rags and brushes. You can seal in the van dyke with shellac sanding sealer and then apply more van dyke on top, mess around with that, seal and if needed add another application of stain. If you want to give the finish a more faded, washed out look you can add a little yellow ochre and titanium white to the sealer and this will give a more aged silvery appearance but you will have to take care not to get it streaky or you might have to wash it right back and start again. You can then put a rubber of button polish over the top or just wax on top of the sealer, it really depends on what you want to achieve. In the 2nd pic the chair in the middle is the original.
Hope this helps.

mrpercysnodgrass.


----------



## MIGNAL (15 Jul 2012)

Lofty":1r0a8oxi said:


> Marcus,
> thanks for all of that information. I will certainly give the washing soda a try. What would you use for a finish? I have used mostly shellac based products (Mark Finney's and Liberon easy French polish) applied with a mop but I don't always get the depth to the finish that I would like. It seems a bit variable too. Perhaps that is down to different wood (all European oak)?
> 
> Mike



The liberon 'easy French Polish' is just Shellac and an added resin. I think the solvent may well be different and they certainly add a few drops of Turpentine to extend brushing time. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to obtain a very deep gloss using this product. It just takes many very thin coats. Finally all rubbed down to around 1500 Grit (or finer) and then buffed with a polishing compound.
I don't use the Liberon but simply Shellac with a few drops of Lavender Oil to help extend the brushing time. On a Guitar I may do as many as 15 coats before letting it all harden for a few weeks. Then I go through the Grits. Even though 15 coats sounds like a huge amount it is still much quicker than French Polishing. If you want a flat, highly glossy surface you really do need to let the stuff dry and harden. If you go through the Grits too early all that happens is that your flat, glossy film shrinks and takes on the texture of the wood - even if that is very slight. 
At the moment I am doing a side by side test between brushed on Shellac and Shellac applied in the French Polishing manner. Before turning to brushed on Shellac/Spirit Varnish I was french Polishing for some 30 years. I'm fairly certain the vast majority of woodworkers would be hard pressed to tell them apart. There is certainly a technique to using the brush though. I don't think it's much less skilled than French Polishing.


----------



## marcus (15 Jul 2012)

My comment about real french polish was more about the process than the product. It was based on the premise that the most beautiful shellac finishes work on the principle that shellac will take a very high gloss even when applied in an incredibly thin layer, and that it is the (potential) thinness of the layer _combined_ with the shine that makes french polishing such a (potentially) beautiful finish. 

My experience has been that a shellac finish that relies on abrasive papers to create the shine has to be applied relatively thickly (hence 15 coats etc) because otherwise the risk of abrading through to the wood is too high. Personally I like to apply pummice and shellac as a grain filler if necessary (or commercial products if cheating!), then 2 or 3 very thin coats of shallac (more if in a hard wearing area) then wait a few hours, then pull over with finishing spirit, then overnight and finish off with burnishing cream.. The whole process can be done in a day at a pinch, and most of this is waiting so one is free to do other things....

I suppose that some might quibble with my terminology - ie is this 'real' French polishing (no oil on the rubber etc. etc.)? As far as I'm concerned it can be called Gerald, but it does have the potential to produce a flawless high gloss finish on the thinnest possible layer of shellac. Ideally it looks like the wood itself is shining rather than a surface layer of polish. Lovely  

Re. the Van Dyke, if the finish colour you are trying to achieve is the pure Van dyke colour then by all means use Van Dyke on its own! I prefer a less obviously 'van dyked' look where possible, hence the recommendation re soda/Van Dyke mix. Very nice chairs by the way  

Cheers

Marcus.


----------



## MIGNAL (15 Jul 2012)

Well Marcus that's a much quicker way of French Polishing than I was taught!
BTW there is a DVD available on French Polishing a Guitar. It gives the whole process (probably includes pore filling) as taking some 40 hours actual working time. I repeat: that's NOT the time taken from starting to completion! That is some 4 weeks.
I queried this so called 40 hours on a Guitar making forum, calling it a form of madness. There were a few who stated that it took them as long as 40 hours and a few more who were only marginally quicker. I thought I was slow at under 20 hours!
You are correct regarding the film thickness of brushed on Shellac. It does have to be thicker. Not a huge amount though. The stuff that I brush on is VERY thin. There are many who believe that the act of rubbing with the fad somehow compresses the finish or the friction produces heat that changes the nature of the film i.e. making it more durable. I'm not convinced. I think the real difference is in the film thickness, that's it. . . but that is what my test is for.


----------



## marcus (15 Jul 2012)

Yes, it's quite speedy! I was taught that way and was a bit suspicious at first because it seemed so straightforward and quick compared to other approaches I'd read about. I've never detected any problem with it though, so I'm happy with it. It feels like a bit of magic every time I do it 

Obviously finishing in a day assumes that it is a fairly small and straightforward piece....


----------



## [email protected] (19 Jul 2012)

vandyke IS a great product when used in the right circumstances. The biggest mistake people make IMO is not understanding how a thicker solution can influence things. Saying vandyke stain is great per se is a bit of useless info if it is not followed on by saying how thick to mix it as that can influence a jobs outcome massively. To this end, its good to see the explanation given in this thread...


----------



## Lofty (19 Jul 2012)

Mignal, Marcus, thanks for the comments on French polish. what mix (cut) do you two guys use? Assuming you keep it in an airtight jar how long does it last before it is no longer useable? What happens when it is too old?

Mike


----------



## MIGNAL (19 Jul 2012)

I'm assuming you are referring to just Shellac in Meths and not the easy French Polish.
I use a 1lb cut. That's for French Polishing. If I'm brushing it on I might dilute it further. 
How long it lasts depends on a number factors. A 3lb cut will have a longer shelf life than a 1lb cut. Big variations in temperature are to be avoided. As it gets older the stuff takes longer to dry and finally remains 'gummy'. You have a hard time cutting it back with wet and dry as it tends to gum up and clog the paper. 
According to the Chemist at Liberon, their ready mixed Special Pale Polish might last 2 or 3 years if kept in ideal conditions. He also stated that it's preferable to decant and exclude air. That came as a bit of a surprise. I'm not sure if Liberon are doing anything special with the stuff to get that kind of shelf life. Usually I discard after 3 or 4 months. Then again I mix from dry flakes and make up small batches for the project at hand. I get very little waste.


----------



## marcus (19 Jul 2012)

I do it by eye, I put some flakes in a jar then fill with meths till the total height in jar is four times the height of the flakes. No idea what cut that makes technically! For finishing spirit I just dilute with more meths until its a very pale yellow. Not very scientific I'm afraid! RE shelf life etc, just as Mignal says. 

BTW old washing up liquid bottles are a great way to store it and dispense onto rubber....


----------



## Lofty (20 Jul 2012)

OK, thanks for that I'll give it a try. I'm experimenting with various stains and finishes at the moment so I will add it to the list.

Mike


----------



## SeanJ (24 Jul 2012)

@MIGNAL 

staying slightly off the van dyke topic, i too am a polisher of many years and also think you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference with a french polished piece that's had multiple mop coats, left weeks to harden (what a luxury!) then flatted and rubbered - as opposed to many bodying routines. Though for the purists who may use pumice in their rubbers to grind flat in bodying stages and only really get the mop out for turnings and fiddly areas - they would likely scoff at this approach. Both methods should give a flat, hard unsinking finish with minimal difference if executed properly IMO.

Sean


----------



## MIGNAL (24 Jul 2012)

Well yes. This was a real quick trial, largely to see what effect waxy button polish would have. Usually I decant the Shellac so that I'm left with very little wax. This is 6 brushed on coats, all done in one day. very next day - 800G, 1200G, 1500G followed by Liberon Burnishing cream. To be honest it was less than half the effort that I normally go to, I should let the whole thing dry and harden for a few weeks before hitting it with the abrasives.







PS. We will see how much of a difference (if any) once I have concluded my side by side test. I'll try to discern a difference in the hardness/durabilty that a few people have told me exists between the two methods.


----------

