# Another car boot hone.



## Phil Pascoe (1 Sep 2016)

Sorry, not the best light for colours. I picked this one up a quid. It is sooo fine and hard - I started to flatten it a little to show the original colour. I've not seen anything like it, I assume it's not natural as the colour is so uniform and there's no sign of any grain. Put a drop of oil on it and it will be there days later, it is so hard - it isn't very hollow, but whoever wore it that way must have arms like Popeye.


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## bugbear (1 Sep 2016)

It's a Washita, I think - very useful.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Sep 2016)

I wondered that, too. What put me off is the uniformity - but I've never come across a synthetic stone so fine, hard and impermeable.


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## memzey (1 Sep 2016)

I've got a lily white Washita which looks a bit like that. Excellent stone. Well done on picking it up for a pound!


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## bugbear (2 Sep 2016)

phil.p":36qxji7x said:


> I wondered that, too. What put me off is the uniformity - but I've never come across a synthetic stone so fine, hard and impermeable.



another-sharpening-stone-id-t82816.html

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Sep 2016)

Thanks, BB. A couple of pictures in better light.


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## Rorschach (2 Sep 2016)

Good lord man, put that leg away!


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## ED65 (2 Sep 2016)

Nice find Phil! And for a quid, hard to do better than that =D> 



phil.p":25ffdn8h said:


> ...whoever wore it that way must have arms like Popeye.


It might have taken them a couple of decades. I have a stone like that, bought new in the 1960s when the owner was a young man and sold on a couple of years ago when he was moving back to the UK.

For a stone of this density you might try white spirit as a honing fluid, if you don't mind getting it on your skin. I've found it works well on the super-fine ones.


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## bugbear (2 Sep 2016)

ED65":4ydni7kh said:


> Nice find Phil! And for a quid, hard to do better than that =D>
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Washita isn't super fine, or even fine. That's why it's so useful. Arkansas, in various colours, is much finer, an an excellent finishing stone.

For Washita I use my a engine oil/white spirit mix, around 50;50

I agree that on very fine/slippery stones (Arkansas, "Yellow Lake"), pure white spirit reduces that horrible "sliding around with no control" feeling.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Sep 2016)

The only thing I can compare it with is a 6000 grit waterstone I owned until some kind soul relieved me of it - I would think it's as fine if not finer. With a drop of light oil it feels like honing on plate glass, and takes a couple of minutes for the oil to discolour. The hollowing looks worse than it is and both sides and edges have been equally used - someone obviously cared for it.


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## D_W (3 Sep 2016)

Washita, definitely. There were some stones that came out of the pike mine that were fine for honing razors, but they still had some porous appearance and wouldn't be confused for a translucent arkansas stone. 

If you conditioned the surface of the stone, you'd find it to cut a bit faster and harsher, but with a strop on bare leather, it would still shave hair. That's what makes them such wonderful hones. Combine them with the use of the cap iron and you can do all of your sharpening with one stone and still get a good surface.


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## bugbear (3 Sep 2016)

phil.p":o8zn32q3 said:


> With a drop of light oil it feels like honing on plate glass, and takes a couple of minutes for the oil to discolour.



That's curious; I've two stones that look identical to yours (and each other), but are much grippier, and faster cutting, than you describe.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2016)

I'll clean and flatten it then have another crack at it - it may well be different with the surface refreshed, as D. pointed out. I've another rather nice one to do as well, looks to be slate but uncertain atm. -


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## bridger (3 Sep 2016)

ED65":27s6705q said:


> For a stone of this density you might try white spirit as a honing fluid, if you don't mind getting it on your skin. I've found it works well on the super-fine ones.



Try isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol in the US) .

It's lighter than oil and keeps things nice and clean


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2016)

Funny, that - I haven't long said on another thread how useful isopropyl is.
Slate, without a doubt the other one.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2016)

Another pound gone.


Undoubtedly natural from the damage on the underside.

Four together - the first one now cleaned up, the slate in the middle, the new one on the left and a slip stone on the slate (also cleaned up) in the middle.

I have absolutely no idea what the slipstone is made of. It's pale green, it is just about glass hard - nothing makes the slightest mark on it, .The marks in the picture are fingerprints, it's translucency is totally uniform throughout - held to the sun the light shows through the lower half. It looks too synthetic to be natural - but I wonder why any manufacturer would make anything so hard?


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## D_W (12 Sep 2016)

top one looks like a cretan


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## Biliphuster (12 Sep 2016)

Love those stones with an unmilled bottom. Make a box with a cavity to fit the sides with plenty of room underneath and then fill with plaster of paris, set the stone in and let dry.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2016)

No, it was milled, it's just been damaged.


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## bugbear (12 Sep 2016)

phil.p":2pkw23s6 said:


> Another pound gone.
> I have absolutely no idea what the slipstone is made of. It's pale green, it is just about glass hard - nothing makes the slightest mark on it, .The marks in the picture are fingerprints, it's translucency is totally uniform throughout - held to the sun the light shows through the lower half. It looks too synthetic to be natural - but I wonder why any manufacturer would make anything so hard?









The big square hone the 4 small ones are sitting on looks coarse enough to be quite a fast cutter.  

BugBear


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## D_W (12 Sep 2016)

The slip looks like a waxy type of hone that's referred to as Lyn Idwall on razor boards. With new sellers in the UK digging up rocks and attaching seemingly random names to things, I don't know if that's the right name. What's referred to as Idwalls on the razor board are stones that look like a charnley but with a brighter green and more of a waxy look whereas the charns are 100% opaque.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2016)

This is a kind of green/grey - I'll try to get pics. with better colour. I tried the first one with a drop of isopropyl just now, after cleaning/flattening it. What a cracker, very fine, but the alcohol discoloured immediately. Quite quick.


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## D_W (12 Sep 2016)

phil.p":h4rcrsc1 said:


> This is a kind of green/grey - I'll try to get pics. with better colour. I tried the first one with a drop of isopropyl just now, after cleaning/flattening it. What a cracker, very fine, but the alcohol discoloured immediately. Quite quick.



Yes cretan, its as if you slurry an arkansas stone, except that it's like that all the time. There is a write-up about them holtzapffel's book where he suggests that in heavy use, a craftsman will have to true the stone often, but that they were preferred for very hard steels because they stay active and cut fast. 

Looking closer at your slip, it might be cretan, too. 

(or Turkish oilstone). 

Someone on youtube messaged me a couple of months ago and said they are still selling those hones new, but only for something like 40 euro per KG (that would make a large cretan hone). I guess there is no real market for them, and I've never seen one in person - they just don't show up here. 

There is a white version for sale from razor vendors, but they term it a mid-grit stone (as far as razors go). 

Thanks for sharing it with us.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2016)

The photo is misleading - in reality it is just like looking at a piece of coloured glass. There is no grain, pattern or colour change anywhere.


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## D_W (12 Sep 2016)

phil.p":t611rxha said:


> The photo is misleading - in reality it is just like looking at a piece of coloured glass. There is no grain, pattern or colour change anywhere.



Judge by cutting power then. If it is extremely slow and has almost no cutting power, it's agate. If it has a little bit of cutting power, it's probably novaculite. 

You probably know that already, apologies if I'm just telling you things you already know.


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## TFrench (12 Sep 2016)

D_W":2hepplxl said:


> The slip looks like a waxy type of hone that's referred to as Lyn Idwall on razor boards. With new sellers in the UK digging up rocks and attaching seemingly random names to things, I don't know if that's the right name. What's referred to as Idwalls on the razor board are stones that look like a charnley but with a brighter green and more of a waxy look whereas the charns are 100% opaque.



That's plausible - there's a honestone quarry at the bottom of Cwm Idwal in Wales. You walk through it on the way up to Devils kitchen.


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## MIGNAL (12 Sep 2016)

I ain't going there for a bite to eat.


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## essexalan (12 Sep 2016)

Good find! Lots of information here on UK and European stones https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020m/ ... part_3.pdf 
Two other pdfs well worth a read just exchange the part number for a 2 or a 3. Just go and cut your own.....Seem to remember lots of slate just laying around in various areas in Wales.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2016)

any one in particular, Alan?  I forgot to say - I paid a pound for the slipstone as well.


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## essexalan (13 Sep 2016)

phil.p":g31uazkz said:


> any one in particular, Alan?  I forgot to say - I paid a pound for the slipstone as well.



All of them  I find these natural stones very interesting and not just the finishing stones. No stone quarries in my area it's all clay pits and the car boots are pretty useless.


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## bugbear (13 Sep 2016)

essexalan":1zb52zho said:


> Seem to remember lots of slate just laying around in various areas in Wales.



Yeah, but in the same way that not all sandstone makes good grindstones, not all slate makes good hones.

BugBear


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## essexalan (13 Sep 2016)

bugbear":1pdwnvrf said:


> essexalan":1pdwnvrf said:
> 
> 
> > Seem to remember lots of slate just laying around in various areas in Wales.
> ...




Agreed but it would be interesting finding out. Certainly not advocating filling your car boot up with rocks the locals would get grumpy.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2016)

I don't think my local granite and quartz would work.


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## bridger (13 Sep 2016)

essexalan":89rbf2cg said:


> bugbear":89rbf2cg said:
> 
> 
> > essexalan":89rbf2cg said:
> ...




I once selected a couple of likely looking slate tiles from the local big box store- very fine, smooth and consistent looking and feeling. Sliced them up, flattened them and tried them out as hones. They did work, but very slowly, dished quickly and produced an edge that wouldn't cut much of anything. 

On the other hand, I have a stone I picked up hiking that is a pretty close equivalent to my surgical black arkansas.


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## bridger (13 Sep 2016)

phil.p":11ym5fvr said:


> I don't think my local granite and quartz would work.




Don't be so sure. Novaculite and jasper are both almost pure quartz. Try a piece that is cloudy looking. It might surprise you as a finishing stone.


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## D_W (13 Sep 2016)

Novaculite has undergone a chemical transition and is different and stronger cutting than quartz, BUT it's definitely true that you can use quartz as a hone - especially if it's uniform and without inconsistent pores and cracks. 

the advent of diamond hones allows creation of a scratch pattern as well as a cutting slurry on stones that would otherwise be useless (some of the hardest japanese hones are useless by themselves, but they've gotten a revival because of diamond hones).


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## bridger (13 Sep 2016)

D_W":2r2tknbt said:


> Novaculite has undergone a chemical transition and is different and stronger cutting than quartz, BUT it's definitely true that you can use quartz as a hone - especially if it's uniform and without inconsistent pores and cracks.
> 
> the advent of diamond hones allows creation of a scratch pattern as well as a cutting slurry on stones that would otherwise be useless (some of the hardest japanese hones are useless by themselves, but they've gotten a revival because of diamond hones).




novaculite is a partially metamorphosed sedimentary (surface) material whereas quartz massives (single crystals) are pegmatite produced- slow cooling of deep crust or upper mantle material. their structure is substantially different but their composition is essentially the same. cryptocrystalline quartz (agates, jaspers and quartzite) are many microscopic crystals randomly packed together. novaculite is microscopic grains of sand packed together and fused by heat and pressure. the end result is generally that agates, jaspers and quartzite are finer grained and harder than novaculite which puts them out at the edge of usefulness for honing. as DW says, surface texture becomes important with these extremely fine hard stones. they glaze over easily producing a surface that burnishes but doesn't cut. they are high maintenance but can be useful for final finishing.


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## bugbear (14 Sep 2016)

I'm going to try for an uncontroversial statement in a sharpening thread:

Only a minority of rocks make good sharpening stones: this is why rocks which *do* sharpen well have historically been highly valued, and traded over substantial distances.

BugBear


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## memzey (14 Sep 2016)

I've read a number of historical references to "Turkey Stones" as being excellent hones but found very little information on them. Can anyone shed some light on them?


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## swagman (14 Sep 2016)

Ask bugbear about Turkey Stones. http://straightrazorplace.com/hones/370 ... key-4.html


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## D_W (14 Sep 2016)

memzey":257x4sl0 said:


> I've read a number of historical references to "Turkey Stones" as being excellent hones but found very little information on them. Can anyone shed some light on them?



In the US, the term is sometimes used to describe a washita stone. 

Anywhere near crete, it's for a type of friable novaculite oilstone that wears faster than an arkansas or oilstone. In an era where natural stones were the most prevalent, they were regarded as a fast cutting alternative to charns, slates, and arkansas stones because they shed particles and cut faster than similar fineness naturals that don't shed. 

I would assume that synthetic stones eliminated them from the market, as they are still mined and sold as "cretan" hones, they just don't have much of a market.

They are one of the very few hones that I've never gotten a hold of, but not for any good reason other than that I just don't have that much use for a stone that cuts like a slurried arkansas stone.


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## memzey (14 Sep 2016)

So they cut faster but have a similar level of fineness to Arks? Sounds useful.


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## D_W (14 Sep 2016)

memzey":10j603je said:


> So they cut faster but have a similar level of fineness to Aks? Sounds useful.



From reading old texts, I'd say yes. There are different grades and hardnesses, so they may not all be that fine but razor board people claim to have finished edges with stones graded for knives and tools (which would be faster and coarser of the grades).

Holtzapffel's text suggested that they need to be trued/flattened fairly frequently, but that's not much of a problem with modern abrasives.


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## memzey (14 Sep 2016)

They sound a bit like a Washita on steroids. I'm pretty happy with my sharpening kit but if I come across one I'll give it a go.


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## D_W (14 Sep 2016)

I would if I were able to find them over here in full size for cheaper than $80 or so (that seems to be the cheapest I can find them, and often they are short fat stones that would be better used on razors - which need to be sharpened so infrequently that I have no interest in more razor stones).


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## bugbear (14 Sep 2016)

swagman":17j6ww6s said:


> Ask bugbear about Turkey Stones. http://straightrazorplace.com/hones/370 ... key-4.html



I have no secrets from google!

BugBear


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## adrspach (14 Sep 2016)

I do have few Turkey hones and can say that they are just tad softer that Arkies and do not need need to be flattened too often as most other natural hones do.
There are two main varieties light and dark with sources from Crete to Turkey. The best man to speak to about them is at present Vasilis from SRP who is still able to get new ones for people.


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## D_W (15 Sep 2016)

If you're feeling lucky, you can buy them from an online store and choose them in sizes up to 5kg. 

If I saw one on the street here in large size, I'd probably buy it.


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## swagman (15 Sep 2016)

Those of you interested in identifying the different makes of honing stones should be viewing this site; https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020m/ ... part_3.pdf

Stewie;


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## AndyT (15 Sep 2016)

swagman":3ad4gxdk said:


> Those of you interested in identifying the different makes of honing stones should be viewing this site; https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020m/ ... part_3.pdf
> 
> Stewie;



Thanks for that link - some very detailed and informative material that I'd not seen before.


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## swagman (15 Sep 2016)

Thanks Andy; I read some of the comments on Turkey Stones, and the only comment that came close to being accurate was made by *adrspach *

Stewie;



> I do have few Turkey hones and can say that they are just tad softer that Arkies and do not need need to be flattened too often as most other natural hones do.
> There are two main varieties light and dark with sources from Crete to Turkey. The best man to speak to about them is at present Vasilis from SRP who is still able to get new ones for people.



The special very hard CF stones are from the area of
Charnwood Forest in Leicestershire.

Some CFs can provide a very sharp edge. They can be used
for grinding or polishing of a cut with a light oil, but
preferably with water. Many of these ancient stones are
available 2nd hand in a specially made wooden box, which
is saturated with oil. Also, the stone very frequently has a
pretty thick layer of dirt. They are quite hard to plane -
even a little of smoothing can often cost several hours.

The best Charnley Forest Stone, as some have indicated, is
from the Whittle Hill Quarry, the other stones from nearby
exhibit sharper or hard spots.

*Charnley Forest whetstone is one of the best alternatives for
the Turkish oil stone, and very sought after by carpenters
and others, to give a cut to different tools, pocket knives
and the best stones are suitable for straight razors.*


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## D_W (15 Sep 2016)

Stewie, once again, you make assertions when you're really only in position to observe - you really don't have much whetstone experience.

From the same page that you referred to, there is an excerpt lower down describing arkansas stones as not wearing even under the heaviest use. What stone do you think that is a comparison to?

The excerpts are from different versions of holtzapffel, and there are plenty of other sources describing them, including catalogs retailing stones, which describe them as fragile and rarely free of defects, or in some cases requiring frequent flattening (which may be a couple of times per day in heavy use - heavy use when people ground things by hand wouldn't be sharpening four or five plane irons on them in an afternoon session, it would be something like finishing new hard irons or cutler or carver's work).

See hasluck's description of them in carving, as "wearing unevenly" and "most brittle". Relatively hard stones don't wear unevenly, though cretans are hard compared to modern synthetics (which are generally unsuitable for carving tools or leading edge knife sharpening).


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## D_W (15 Sep 2016)

It seems to be worth satisfying curiosity at this point for me, as it's one of the few stones I've never bought, and the shop selling the mined stones only asks 20 euro per kilogram for a big cretan, but good LORD, the shipping is 42 euro from greece!!!

I presume that the shipping for europeans is much more reasonable.


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## essexalan (15 Sep 2016)

D_W":657e81ba said:


> It seems to be worth satisfying curiosity at this point for me, as it's one of the few stones I've never bought, and the shop selling the mined stones only asks 20 euro per kilogram for a big cretan, but good LORD, the shipping is 42 euro from greece!!!
> 
> I presume that the shipping for europeans is much more reasonable.




I found some here http://www.yataganelaletleri.com/catego ... &id_lang=1 at about 3 GBP/kilo that is 80 TL for a 7 kilo+ stone. Shipping says 10 US$ but the translation is a bit vague and yes the stones do come from Turkey but are they the aforementioned Turkish stones?


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## D_W (15 Sep 2016)

essexalan":1b14v60s said:


> D_W":1b14v60s said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to be worth satisfying curiosity at this point for me, as it's one of the few stones I've never bought, and the shop selling the mined stones only asks 20 euro per kilogram for a big cretan, but good LORD, the shipping is 42 euro from greece!!!
> ...



I think those not the turkish oilstone type, but rather a travertine or some other type of sedimentary non-novaculite hone. 

The various old sources list two types of old stones - dark and light colored, with the types being very similar but the light colored being a bit softer. The dark are listed as harder. All are listed as having voids and fractures - those are a bit too uniform looking. 

The three names that I've seen for the turkish novaculites are turkey oilstone, novaculite and pierre du levant. I think the origin is only selling the light type, but they all darken once they are oiled. 

I'd like to have the dark type, but I'm not aware of anything other than vintage stones of that type. I'll just bite the bullet and order a big one from the grecian knife shop selling the cretan. It's 42 euro to ship any size. Might as well get something interesting if it only costs another 20 euro to do so. 

(the price in the US for these stones, and from european dealers, is about 3 times the source price for the small typical 0.75-1KG size - anywhere from $70 with shipping here to $80 euros overseas -quite a large mark up - all of those are also the light type).


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## bugbear (15 Sep 2016)

essexalan":uk814muk said:


> I found some here http://www.yataganelaletleri.com/catego ... &id_lang=1 at about 3 GBP/kilo that is 80 TL for a 7 kilo+ stone. Shipping says 10 US$ but the translation is a bit vague and yes the stones do come from Turkey but are they the aforementioned Turkish stones?



Back in the day, Turkey stone meant "that type of sharpening stone commonly exported from Turkey".

Just finding stone in Turkey doesn't mean you've found what used to be called "Turkey Stone".

It's the distinction between a name and a description. A "black board" is more than a board which happens to be black, as any chalk wielding teacher can tell you.

BugBear


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## D_W (15 Sep 2016)

Hopefully, turkey stone from that part of the world would mean novaculite, but only the listing on ebay assures that. I was going to try to get one from the greek knife company that sells them for 20 euro per KG, but the credit card verification service used in europe apparently has caused my credit card company to suspect something nefarious (EDIT: literally found out later in the day that trying to buy something directly from greece caused my card to be locked and I had to call to let the company know that was actually me). 

So I ordered the white cretan type that's on ebay. Love to have one of the dark ones, too, but I'll have to hope one pops up on ebay and like minded people aren't thinking the same thing as I am at the same time. The ask for smaller hones in the past has been somewhere on the order of $100.


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## D_W (20 Sep 2016)

So much for giving the cretan a try. Here in western PA, the hone got within about 10 miles of my house, and then has taken an inexplicable trip to des moines, iowa. It's unlikely that it would've been address incorrectly, or it wouldn't have stopped here. Maybe someone at the local package stop was having a bad day and decided to play bin poker by putting incoming packages onto random outgoing trucks.


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## MIGNAL (20 Sep 2016)

If you are going by the tracking, that can happen sometimes. Your parcel can go right past your street and mysteriously end up 80 miles away, only for it to return boomerang style. Obviously for the US you have to multiply that 80 miles by a factor of 4 or 5.


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## D_W (20 Sep 2016)

Yes, by tracking in this case. The spot where the package ended up is our local priority mail stop for Pittsburgh. Somehow, instead of heading next to my post office (literally down the road 10 miles or so), it ended up in a basket and trucked to desmoines, which is probably about 700 miles away. 

Scheduled delivery was today, which would've been the normal one day after arriving at the local distribution center. If the address on the package is right (likely it is), it'll be seen in des moines and sent right back, just 3 or 4 days late from what it was. 

So while it looked really easy to try one of the white cretan types, the first place (in greece) caused my credit card company to put a fraud stop on the card, and the second place has the stones here in the states and they go to iowa! Maybe I shouldn't say it's so easy to get them!

I had a guy quite some time ago offer pick up stuff in crete for 20 euros a KG and mail it to me at cost. Maybe I should've taken him up on his offer!!


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## swagman (21 Sep 2016)

Its often quite difficult to identify what type of used natural honing stones on the bay, especially in the U.K where oil has been the predominant lubricant used. The oil tends to widely discolour the natural features that set 1 apart type from the other. Apart from having to work with what ever the seller is able to provide you within photo's, and written description, its not until you can actually get hold of the stone, clean it right down, to remove all traces of oil contaminant and other staining effects, that a more clearer interpretation can be ascertained. Its can be a sizable gamble in $$ when you add in the high cost of export postage, but that in a way can either add to the excitement, or disappointment, of what you may end up purchasing.

Andy and BB; I previously posted part 3: of the Honing and Grinding site. 

The following attachment is part 2: 
https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020m/ ... part_2.pdf 

Stewie;


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## D_W (21 Sep 2016)

D_W":15e25e0r said:


> Yes, by tracking in this case. The spot where the package ended up is our local priority mail stop for Pittsburgh. Somehow, instead of heading next to my post office (literally down the road 10 miles or so), it ended up in a basket and trucked to desmoines, which is probably about 700 miles away.



annddd...back to the local distribution center today. At least they saw it quickly in des moines and sent it back. We'll see if it goes to des moines again before it settles in my mailbox.

I was looking forward to seeing what it's like! It's one of the few hones I avoided wasting money on for a long time. Since there is a white type (this one) and a black type that is more fractured and just a bit finer, I guess that still leaves something to curiosity. The black ones are hard to find, and the older types seem to be more of that type than the white.


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## D_W (23 Sep 2016)

Finally got the cretan today. I could see how it might release particles with carving tools (where hasluck says it's unsuitable), but it's very nice for chisels and plane irons.

Compared to any synthetic stones, it's hard (except for true ceramics like coors and shapton), but it's a bit more friable than arkansas stones. 

Leaves a hazy finish on western chisels and almost polished on japanese. The soft iron backer on a japanese chisel shreds it off. It's a bit slower than my washita stones, and the resultant edge is relatively similar - neat stone. 

This is for the white type, which is supposedly just barely softer than the black type (it's more gray, but once it's oiled, it's dark like slate). Not as many inclusions as the hard type and somewhere between the washita and a black arkansas in fineness.


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## D_W (10 Nov 2016)

One last one that I was looking for. It's definitely a little finer than the cretan type, and the seller was using it with water where it sheds nothing at all and is literally a burnisher. I was worried at first that it might be quartz, but a little bit of lubricant and it woke up.

It's a little lighter than most of the more black colored stones, but it's definitely novaculite, and feels very similar to the cretan but finer. Fast cutter, too. For some reason, it didn't get much traffic on ebay and I got it for the opening bid - about 1/2 - 1/3rd of what some of the English-sold stones have brought.


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## essexalan (10 Nov 2016)

DW does that stone bear any resemblance to the Cretan stone you purchased? There have been a few on UK ebay similar to the above being sold as Turkey stones they seem to have an almost translucent look to them and contain a few fissures like your one.


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## D_W (10 Nov 2016)

The stone being sold as cretan in the US, I'm guessing, is the light colored stone that is described in old texts. The old texts say that type, and what I believe the type is above (the darker type, though I'm not sure why this one is brown as opposed to the typical black) are very similar with the white type being slightly less fine. I think that's accurate. They feel almost the same once I woke up the above stone, but I can tell there is a slight difference in fineness (either is fine enough, though). 

The brown turkey stone (if I can be so presumptuous to call it that given that it's not the typical black) has a lot more fissures in it and is a lot more irregular than the white cretan (which turns dark gray once it's oiled). 

Do you have an ebay number to one of the stones you're talking about? I'd like to see if it's the same as the stone that's being sold as a cretan in the US.


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## essexalan (10 Nov 2016)

The stones sold by the Greek knife shop look a bit like this 371779352254, not sure what this one is 291932471385 perhaps a black Turkey stone? The others that are now gone were quite glassy and vari-coloured but contained the fissures plus a translucent look to them. Hard to tell from ebay pictures but AFAIK they were not UK extracted stones, I did read that the black Turkeys were somewhat fragile.


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## D_W (10 Nov 2016)

The first one looks more like my brown stone and less like a cretan, but it's so dirty that it's hard to tell. 

I'm not sure what the second one is, but it doesn't look like either of mine. The white and gray type look like these, and I think these are the lighter type described in the old texts. I think anything with a significant amount of flake is more like the darker type. 

272427927889 (gray)

272307777828 (white)

You can see that the gray and white types have a fair bit of faults in them, but not all over like the black ones or the brown that I showed above. The dark type were called fragile in one of my carving books because they can't sustain any drop. I didn't take mine out of the base, and only fiddled with it long enough to figure out how to get it to cut as it was so burnished from being used with water that it didn't cut at all. (the white cretan cut fast right away - really fast, and has slowed down a little bit, but not much)

The first one you showed is one I'd take a chance on, but not if it goes too high. It seems like there are a whole bunch of dissimilar novaculite hones.


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## essexalan (10 Nov 2016)

Will the real Turkey stone stand up please! I took a bit of a shine to the second stone mostly because it looks as if it has been hacked out of a mountain but looking at the layers in it and the amount of wear I am not sure. Anyway they will both go for too much dosh so I might just get one or two from the GKS and hope that one of them turns up in one piece. 
The Cretan hone you got would have been freshly flattened so I would expect it to cut faster until the abrasive blunts a bit. I will have to play with various lubes and see what effect I get but then I invariably flatten a used stone when I get it, if it needs it, so I have to use them enough so they work in. Just picked up an LI I think, it is an odd colour, that is glassy smooth and very flat. That LI quarry must have a lot of different layers there.


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## D_W (10 Nov 2016)

essexalan":2479pp63 said:


> Will the real Turkey stone stand up please! I took a bit of a shine to the second stone mostly because it looks as if it has been hacked out of a mountain but looking at the layers in it and the amount of wear I am not sure. Anyway they will both go for too much dosh so I might just get one or two from the GKS and hope that one of them turns up in one piece.
> The Cretan hone you got would have been freshly flattened so I would expect it to cut faster until the abrasive blunts a bit. I will have to play with various lubes and see what effect I get but then I invariably flatten a used stone when I get it, if it needs it, so I have to use them enough so they work in. Just picked up an LI I think, it is an odd colour, that is glassy smooth and very flat. That LI quarry must have a lot of different layers there.



The cretan is a strange thing. It releases particles fast, almost like a waterstone, but not a really soft one. It doesn't ever get to having a glossy slick feeling surface, it's got bite and it's kind of sloppy to use because it's got particles everywhere, metal filings everywhere, and oil. I think you're right about it cutting fast when new, but for a different reason than a lapped ark. Those cut fast due to small grooves that have hard corners, but the cretan just has particles everywhere when it's new, I'd imagine they're a bit loose because the stone hasn't loaded at all and because whatever saws or laps them probably has the particles loosened. I can't remember what I used it with last, but as easily as it releases particles, anything laminated with iron is going to keep it cutting fast and releasing particles really fast. 

Still unfamiliar with the new stone, it took me a while to decide whether or not I wanted to oil the surface as i couldn't believe that water alone would be enough to make it absolutely stop cutting, but it was. 

I'd like to have more LI stones, but I'm getting inundated due to my piggishness so I will take a break unless something really pretty comes up for really cheap. The brown turk shown above for $59 was more than I could resist after seeing black ones go for $150+, as rare as they show up, anyway. Even the ones shown on youtube videos are oddballs.


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## adrspach (10 Nov 2016)

Now imagine slab of LI about 8 metres tall os CF 45 metres tall. Dream ? No it's reality.
Just to add to your Turkey/Cretan hones have you heard which one was cooked in oil as part of manufacturing process?


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## D_W (11 Nov 2016)

adrspach":3ctodily said:


> Now imagine slab of LI about 8 metres tall os CF 45 metres tall. Dream ? No it's reality.
> Just to add to your Turkey/Cretan hones have you heard which one was cooked in oil as part of manufacturing process?



I think it may have been earlier in this thread or mentioned somewhere else that the dark ones that are hard and fragile are like that because they were baked.


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## essexalan (11 Nov 2016)

D_W":16vcxalh said:


> essexalan":16vcxalh said:
> 
> 
> > Will the real Turkey stone stand up please! I took a bit of a shine to the second stone mostly because it looks as if it has been hacked out of a mountain but looking at the layers in it and the amount of wear I am not sure. Anyway they will both go for too much dosh so I might just get one or two from the GKS and hope that one of them turns up in one piece.
> ...



These Cretans sound interesting awaiting a response from the GKS. I would have thought that a freshly lapped Ark would have cut faster due to new sharp particles being exposed they release them rather unwillingly in use if at all, bit like some of these much vaunted hard waterstones that need refreshing constsntly. Odd the the new one cuts faster with oil than water but I have noticed something similar with diamond stones which IMO cut a lot better using WD40 or GT85 and no rust problems.


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## essexalan (11 Nov 2016)

D_W":n31rfpv9 said:


> adrspach":n31rfpv9 said:
> 
> 
> > Now imagine slab of LI about 8 metres tall os CF 45 metres tall. Dream ? No it's reality.
> ...



I have read of stones being baked or cooked but not in oil, I would guess that you would end up with a darkened stone with finer cutting, a "toffee" appearance and probably the process would toughen the stone.

I can imagine such slabs of rock but I would have to see for myself. I was told that when the A road South of CW was revamped then there was a lot of CF just laying around. Undoubtedly a lot of it ended up as road foundation. I would guess that the source of CF covers quite a large area you just have to find accessible outcrops. Interesting that CF seems to come in such odd sizes often narrow, thin and tapered.


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## D_W (11 Nov 2016)

Speaking of CF - I also just recently got this stone, though it's lighter in person. The seller sold it as a CF, but any stone that's not dark with red streaks in it, I never know as I'm not in the UK and don't have a lot of exposure to the various novaculites there. CF, or is it one of the other novaculites from the UK like LI? It doesn't have any flaky look on the surface like some LI chisels do.


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## essexalan (11 Nov 2016)

Looks like a CF DW if those marks on the side are reddish brown and not just oil residue, the black spotches may mean LI though. I think the finest CFs had very little discolouration of the honing surface but I might be wrong. I do have an 8 mm thick piece here which is all one colour, needs mounting before I can use it. Now I need a straight razor and really head for the dark side!


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## D_W (11 Nov 2016)

The most important parts of shaving are the linen (the vintage type that's treated but not abrasive) and the condition of the strop. I bought a lot of hones that are great for sharpening a razor, but my opinion of how it was done most often with old barber hones was to hone short of the edge (which nobody does now) and let the linen and leather keep an edge in shape - which they will do indefinitely if the bevel is kept in correct geometry behind the slightly rounded edge. 

I know little about charnley hones other than that I did have one years ago that was uniform green and it was very fine. I have noticed that they are a little bit softer than arkansas stones, but in the opinion of someone who'd only used waterstones, they'd seem extremely hard. You can nick them with carving tools. A little different than the turkish hone criticism for carving tools, that with repeated use they would develop grooves faster than arkansas stones (having two turkish type novaculites now, it's definitely not a short term problem as they'd sharpen carving tools fine - the problem instead would be that they'd leave the edge a little toothy compared to an arkansas stone). 

Anyway, pointless ramble. I hope more car boot-ish hones come up here, I think the euro novaculites are interesting now that it's seeming easier to get more than just charns (and the charns are getting less expensive - the one I pictured above is substantial, not narrow, very heavy and the seller accepted 55 pounds for it. Someone on the ground over there may scoff at that, but before global shippers were the norm in the UK, the few who did ship here to the states wanted double that plus some). 

I'd give a thumbs up to the razor, though. Every day for me, just seldom honing these days, and I'm sure the linen and leather could make a razor last a comfortable year before even several swipes across a barber hone set the razor up for another hone-free year.


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## swagman (12 Nov 2016)

DW; it looks like a LI.


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## adrspach (12 Nov 2016)

D_W":1ort18dh said:


> Speaking of CF - I also just recently got this stone, though it's lighter in person. The seller sold it as a CF, but any stone that's not dark with red streaks in it, I never know as I'm not in the UK and don't have a lot of exposure to the various novaculites there. CF, or is it one of the other novaculites from the UK like LI? It doesn't have any flaky look on the surface like some LI chisels do.




My educated guess is CF. Watch outy this often have toxic inclusions and are coarser than normal CF. Also should be a bit softer than usual.


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## D_W (12 Nov 2016)

Nothing toxic on this one, but it could be a little coarse. I won't know until it breaks in because I just lapped it. I'd like if it was a little more coarse than typical as it's going to be used on tools and knives only.

I appreciate the opinion, by the way. I think it's charnley, too.


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## essexalan (13 Nov 2016)

By toxic do you mean inclusions of larger abrasive particles? Not up on razor speak! I would expect your CF to get considerably finer than a Washita but then you are only honing the secondary on it so it should give you a good edge. The CFs I have are very fine and put a good sharp edge on my Japanese chisels at least as good as a Sigma 13K, however the finish does look different with the hagane being revealed more.


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## MIGNAL (13 Nov 2016)

Before using it test it with your geiger counter.


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## D_W (13 Nov 2016)

essexalan":168pezlm said:


> By toxic do you mean inclusions of larger abrasive particles? Not up on razor speak! I would expect your CF to get considerably finer than a Washita but then you are only honing the secondary on it so it should give you a good edge. The CFs I have are very fine and put a good sharp edge on my Japanese chisels at least as good as a Sigma 13K, however the finish does look different with the hagane being revealed more.



Yes, I may have mistakenly used the term toxic in the same sense that it's used in japanese stones (large abrasive particles that damage an edge rather than just simply an area that is more coarse).


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## adrspach (13 Nov 2016)

It can be used both ways. You can have coarser inclusions in which will damage your edge or you expecting certain finish of that edge and those inclusion are not going to damage the edge but can damage or impossible to make the required finish. It can be single crystal of different behaviour than the rest of the stone as well as patches of them. However there are hones which count on them in order to provide the abrasive action e.g. Moughton.


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