# Plane sharpening advice needed



## tibi

Hello, 

I am now working on improving my sharpening system, as I can sharpening my plane blades to cut wood, but it is still not sharp enough to slice paper or cut all the hair from my forearm (it cuts some, but not all). I would not be bothered with it, but I have a lot of oak wood from an elevated garden bed, which I had outside for 3 years and than I disassembled it. The wood is very hard and unless the blade is extremely sharp, it just slides over the top without taking any shavings. I would like to reuse this oak wood, so I need to have a really sharp iron to get any shavings. When I plane this oak wood, I take just a few shavings after sharpening and the plane stops cutting and just glides on the top.

This is my sharpening station. Those are cheap 240,600 and 1200 grit chinese diamond stones, 10 000 grid natural chinese oil stone, all glued to a cutting board and a leather strop. I have classic Stanley blades ( for no.4 and no.5 hand planes). The whole system cost around 30 EUR, but it does the job.





My *freehand* procedure is this:

0. Hollow grind primary bevel on the bench grinder. I have made 25 degree non adjustable wooden support for sliding the blade to the sides, so that the angle is always accurate.
1. I register the primary bevel on the coarse stone and sharpen until I get the burr all the way across the blade. I have found out that just pulling the blade from back to front of the stone creates the burr faster than going back and forth or in circular motion. I use window cleaner for the diamond stones. I make sure to lock my wrist so that I do not round the bevel.
2. I remove the burr on the fine stone and then I sharpen on the medium stone, remove the burr and then sharpen on the fine stone and remove the burr. 
3. Finally, I apply oil to the green 10 000 grit oil stone and I sharpen the bevel with just a little bit higher angle than on the diamond stones to create a micro bevel. I can feel no burr at that step, no matter how long I sharpen. It might be too small
4. I use the ruler trick to remove the burr and create a micro back bevel, so that I don't need to have the whole back perfectly flat.
5. Optionally, I use the strop (I tried pulling back 5 - 30 times and also pulling the flat face), but many times the result is less sharp than just using the green stone without the strop. 

I have seen maybe all the videos available freely on youtube, and they all get better results, even with similar sharpening setups, so I must be still missing something. 
I had a jig before, but it was out of square a lot and it made grooves in my previous water stone with the wheel, so I thrown it away.

I have ordered a 30 - 60 x loupe to further inspect my sharpening, but it did not arrive yet. 

Can you please give me some advice (best with my current setup). I also have 1000/4000 water stone, but I am not using it, because diamond method is faster for me and I can get the burr all the way across the blade on all three stones. 

Do you also have some sound advice/videos for sharpening knives? I have watched many videos, but I have the same problems with sharpening knives. I cannot slice paper, just tear it.

Thank you.


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## Adam W.

Lovely......I'll get the popcorn.


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## tibi

We can also combine this thread with the question if it is safe to get vaccinated, to get even more explosive comments


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## Phil Pascoe

I think you omitted a paste of unicorn tears and stardust on vellum.


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## Jacob

erewego!
Easy one first. Sharpen knives with a steel. A little and often. Dead simple and takes seconds.
It's all I've ever done and I just checked - yes I can slice paper absolutely no prob!

PS re "locked wrists". Mine don't lock! How do you do it?


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## paulrbarnard

You have all the right bits so if you are not getting to the point of splitting atoms when you wave the iron about then it is technique and practice that is needed. 

One point I will make is your two course stones might be part of the problem. Coming off of a hollow grind on a wheel you only need to go a few passes on the 1200 and a final few passes at a small additional angle on the 10000. 

If you want to extend the threads life ask about sharpening jigs and aids.


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## tibi

Jacob said:


> erewego!
> Easy one first. Sharpen knives with a steel. A little and often. Dead simple and takes seconds.
> It's all I've ever done and I just checked - yes I can slice paper absolutely no prob!
> 
> PS re "locked wrists". Mine don't lock! How do you do it?


Jacob, 

I do sharpen knives with a steel, but I have read that from time to time, it is good to sharpen on the stones too, because sharpening on the steel just realigns the edge (might be a myth though). In my terms, locking the wrists means to remove any rotational motion of the wrist joint during the process of sharpening by mere use of willpower.


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## tibi

paulrbarnard said:


> You have all the right bits so if you are not getting to the point of splitting atoms when you wave the iron about then it is technique and practice that is needed.
> 
> One point I will make is your two course stones might be part of the problem. Coming off of a hollow grind on a wheel you only need to go a few passes on the 1200 and a final few passes at a small additional angle on the 10000.
> 
> If you want to extend the threads life ask about sharpening jigs and aids.


I will try to skip the coarse and medium stone next time I sharpen the edge. I always though that getting the burr on the finer stone will automatically refine the edge to the fineness of the particular stone. But it might be the case that I get the burr quicker and the edge has some micro scratches that were not removed yet. I always sharpened on a particular stone just only until I got the burr and no more.


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## Jacob

tibi said:


> ..... sharpening on the steel just realigns the edge (might be a myth though).


I've been told numbers of times that you can't sharpen with a steel. It's nonsense I've been doing it for 60 years or more and have sharp knives.


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## tibi

Jacob said:


> I've been told numbers of times that you can't sharpen with a steel. It's nonsense I've been doing it for 60 years or more and have sharp knives.


I do the same, as it takes only a few seconds. But I also wanted to learn to sharpen on stones, as it is a nice skill to have.


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## Woody2Shoes

tibi said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am now working on improving my sharpening system, as I can sharpening my plane blades to cut wood, but it is still not sharp enough to slice paper or cut all the hair from my forearm (it cuts some, but not all). I would not be bothered with it, but I have a lot of oak wood from an elevated garden bed, which I had outside for 3 years and than I disassembled it. The wood is very hard and unless the blade is extremely sharp, it just slides over the top without taking any shavings. I would like to reuse this oak wood, so I need to have a really sharp iron to get any shavings. When I plane this oak wood, I take just a few shavings after sharpening and the plane stops cutting and just glides on the top.
> 
> This is my sharpening station. Those are cheap 240,600 and 1200 grit chinese diamond stones, 10 000 grid natural chinese oil stone, all glued to a cutting board and a leather strop. I have classic Stanley blades ( for no.4 and no.5 hand planes). The whole system cost around 30 EUR, but it does the job.
> View attachment 122420
> 
> My *freehand* procedure is this:
> 
> 0. Hollow grind primary bevel on the bench grinder. I have made 25 degree non adjustable wooden support for sliding the blade to the sides, so that the angle is always accurate.
> 1. I register the primary bevel on the coarse stone and sharpen until I get the burr all the way across the blade. I have found out that just pulling the blade from back to front of the stone creates the burr faster than going back and forth or in circular motion. I use window cleaner for the diamond stones. I make sure to lock my wrist so that I do not round the bevel.
> 2. I remove the burr on the fine stone and then I sharpen on the medium stone, remove the burr and then sharpen on the fine stone and remove the burr.
> 3. Finally, I apply oil to the green 10 000 grit oil stone and I sharpen the bevel with just a little bit higher angle than on the diamond stones to create a micro bevel. I can feel no burr at that step, no matter how long I sharpen. It might be too small
> 4. I use the ruler trick to remove the burr and create a micro back bevel, so that I don't need to have the whole back perfectly flat.
> 5. Optionally, I use the strop (I tried pulling back 5 - 30 times and also pulling the flat face), but many times the result is less sharp than just using the green stone without the strop.
> 
> I have seen maybe all the videos available freely on youtube, and they all get better results, even with similar sharpening setups, so I must be still missing something.
> I had a jig before, but it was out of square a lot and it made grooves in my previous water stone with the wheel, so I thrown it away.
> 
> I have ordered a 30 - 60 x loupe to further inspect my sharpening, but it did not arrive yet.
> 
> Can you please give me some advice (best with my current setup). I also have 1000/4000 water stone, but I am not using it, because diamond method is faster for me and I can get the burr all the way across the blade on all three stones.
> 
> Do you also have some sound advice/videos for sharpening knives? I have watched many videos, but I have the same problems with sharpening knives. I cannot slice paper, just tear it.
> 
> Thank you.


I suspect than your problem is not so much "sharpening" as "bluntening". Any timber that has been in close contact with the soil is very likely to have sand/rock particles embedded in it. Hope that helps to prevent any further sharpening discussion !!!


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## Jacob

Woody2Shoes said:


> I suspect than your problem is not so much "sharpening" as "bluntening". Any timber that has been in close contact with the soil is very likely to have sand/rock particles embedded in it. Hope that helps to prevent any further sharpening discussion !!!


Oh right I hadn't read the bit about old oak!
Yes difficult. I'd start with a scrub plane - to take off the weathered surface including grit. Might be easier then to use a jack plane.


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## tibi

Woody2Shoes said:


> I suspect than your problem is not so much "sharpening" as "bluntening". Any timber that has been in close contact with the soil is very likely to have sand/rock particles embedded in it. Hope that helps to prevent any further sharpening discussion !!!


I brushed away most of the particles, but that might be the case, as I can never get it perfectly clean. But nevertheless,, improving my sharpening technique will help me in other endeavours too.


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## Ttrees

tibi said:


> 3. Finally, I apply oil to the green 10 000 grit oil stone and I sharpen the bevel with just a little bit higher angle than on the diamond stones to create a micro bevel. I can feel no burr at that step, no matter how long I sharpen. It might be too small



If I were to take a guess, it might be an issue with consistency regarding the higher angle
or even polishing the existing edge gemoetery as the hone is quite a bit taller than the diamonds.
I have things the opposite way just by chance, and go from diamonds adhered to say 1" granite bits,
to a fancy diamond finishing hone, (say 8mm thick)

Maybe try lowering where you are honing, not suggesting Cosman height, but worth noting, and worth messing about with in that regards.

Good luck
Tom


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## tibi

Ttrees said:


> If I were to take a guess, it might be an issue with consistency regarding the higher angle
> or even polishing the existing edge gemoetery as the hone is quite a bit taller than the diamonds.
> I have things the opposite way just by chance, and go from diamonds adhered to say 1" granite bits,
> to a fancy diamond finishing hone, (say 8mm thick)
> 
> Maybe try lowering where you are honing, not suggesting Cosman height, but worth noting, and worth messing about with in that regards.
> 
> Good luck
> Tom


Thank you Tom for your advice. I just got it from Rob Cosman to go a few degrees more for the microbevel on the polishing stone. However, I would try to get maximum from my current setup just by increasing my skill points,before buying 140 USD 16000 grit Shapton stone as he has.


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## Ttrees

I think you definitely have enough to get by, just making the point that it might be worth seeing how you get on honing at somewhat of a lower height.

Edit:
If this was the case that having that seems easier, then it might be worth seeing if you can get used to that height, and maybe raising your other hones to an equal height as the green, or even above it.




Tom


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## tibi

Ttrees said:


> I think you definitely have enough to get by, just making the point that it might be worth seeing how you get on honing at somewhat of a lower height.
> 
> Edit:
> If this was the case that having that seems easier, then it might be worth seeing if you can get used to that height, and maybe raising your other hones to an equal height as the green, or even above it.
> View attachment 122427
> 
> Tom


Maybe I misunderstood you, but I was thinking that you are talking about lowering the honing angle on the green stone, not having the stones of equal height. What benefit would give me having the stones of equal height with the green stone?


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## Adam W.

What's a micro back bevel ?


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## D_W

Assuming you do the grind at 240 and 25 degrees, add a secondary bevel at 27 with the finest diamond hone - just a small one - skip the rest of the hones except for the finish hone - the others are a waste of your time. 

Use a guide or something to get a feel for this, but add a tiny third bevel on the chinese stone you have there at around 32 degrees. 

When you get your loupe, confirm that you see nothing but the finest scratches at the edge. Strop lightly on the strop and nothing more. 

The chinese stones are notoriously slow, unless they're compressed agate, and then they can be coarser than 10k grit (I have one of each type - the natural ones are drastically different - but too slow for practical use to follow a 1200 grit diamond edge without steepening the angle a lot.)

You have only two things really to consider - is the geometry of the final bevel about right, and then, can you ensure visually that the fine scratches get all the way to the edge and is the edge damage free. 

There is no mystery other than that - your loupe will help you. 

Sellers pitches this method with a gaggle of plates and just honing right up the line, but few people get the fine scratches to the edge with no damage, and most steepen the edge in the process - bad practice. Your objective is to get the edge finished in as little work as possible and have it resistant to damage in use. Anything else is dumb. What paul teaches is a beginner's method, but you don't want to be a beginner for more than a very short period of time. The loop is your key in seeing what you're actually getting done (a small hand scope is also a decent idea - the ones that are about 15 pounds on ebay) and halving your sharpening time and getting a better result- both in sharpness and durability. You won't need the loupe for long - just until you get the feel of things. 

You'll also probably quickly get to the point where you're grinding and finish honing at angles separated far enough that you don't need a guide for anything.


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## D_W

dump the ruler trick, by the way. It's also a beginner's trap. when you work the back of a tool, put your fingers where you want the stone to work the metal but leave the tool flat on the stone. If you're coming up short when you can see the scratches on the back, you may want to first work the back on something faster, but even a 1200 grit diamond hone is coarse. A broken in fine india stone is nice for this as it requires little maintenance.


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## TRITON

Jacob said:


> Sharpen knives with a steel.


Just a minor point there J. You don't sharpen knives on a steel, you hone them.


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## tibi

Adam W. said:


> What's a micro back bevel ?


It is the bevel that is created by the ruler trick on the flat side of the blade.


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## tibi

D_W said:


> Assuming you do the grind at 240 and 25 degrees, add a secondary bevel at 27 with the finest diamond hone - just a small one - skip the rest of the hones except for the finish hone - the others are a waste of your time.
> 
> Use a guide or something to get a feel for this, but add a tiny third bevel on the chinese stone you have there at around 32 degrees.
> 
> When you get your loupe, confirm that you see nothing but the finest scratches at the edge. Strop lightly on the strop and nothing more.
> 
> The chinese stones are notoriously slow, unless they're compressed agate, and then they can be coarser than 10k grit (I have one of each type - the natural ones are drastically different - but too slow for practical use to follow a 1200 grit diamond edge without steepening the angle a lot.)
> 
> You have only two things really to consider - is the geometry of the final bevel about right, and then, can you ensure visually that the fine scratches get all the way to the edge and is the edge damage free.
> 
> There is no mystery other than that - your loupe will help you.
> 
> Sellers pitches this method with a gaggle of plates and just honing right up the line, but few people get the fine scratches to the edge with no damage, and most steepen the edge in the process - bad practice. Your objective is to get the edge finished in as little work as possible and have it resistant to damage in use. Anything else is dumb. What paul teaches is a beginner's method, but you don't want to be a beginner for more than a very short period of time. The loop is your key in seeing what you're actually getting done (a small hand scope is also a decent idea - the ones that are about 15 pounds on ebay) and halving your sharpening time and getting a better result- both in sharpness and durability. You won't need the loupe for long - just until you get the feel of things.
> 
> You'll also probably quickly get to the point where you're grinding and finish honing at angles separated far enough that you don't need a guide for anything.


Hello David, 

thank you for your advice. Yes it is an agate stone. I am waiting for my loupe, but they have send me a wrong one (3-8 x only), so I need to wait for a replacement (30-60x). I think that the loupe and good light will help me the most. I can only feel the burr on the edge with the diamond stones, but that is probably not enough, so loupe will help me see, if I do not get rid of all the burr or I do not meet the edge or some other issue.


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## tibi

D_W said:


> dump the ruler trick, by the way. It's also a beginner's trap. when you work the back of a tool, put your fingers where you want the stone to work the metal but leave the tool flat on the stone. If you're coming up short when you can see the scratches on the back, you may want to first work the back on something faster, but even a 1200 grit diamond hone is coarse. A broken in fine india stone is nice for this as it requires little maintenance.



My old blades are slightly bent, they are not perfectly straight. That is why ruler trick helped me avoid a lot of flattening.


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## Adam W.

The ruler trick is ?


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## D_W

tibi said:


> My old blades are slightly bent, they are not perfectly straight. That is why ruler trick helped me avoid a lot of flattening.



I think over time, the ruler trick will cost you time, and when I've tested plane irons, a 0.5mm ruler, or even a 1mm ruler cannot remove edge wear on a dull plane iron without being ground back far enough that it grows. 

You're better off if you gradually work the backs flat and then discard the ruler trick - make yourself an iron holder to work the irons if needed, that's my suggestion. If a stone is too slow to do the back work without the ruler trick, it's probably too fine to be practical (the SP 13000 waterstone comes to mind - great to make a tiny very highly polished bevel, but it takes about 30 seconds of continuous use on the back of a tool with directed finger pressure just to remove routine wear - not even considering potential damage or deep scratches). 

In terms of the agate stones, they don't really leave a burr because they're not cutting fast enough to leave one. That's something you can take advantage of, but not great if you're removing considerable scratches. 

But, when you get the loupe, it will really tell you what you need to know and you can adjust from there. 

Part of the reason most sharpening advice on forums fail is the same reason most people fail with the sellers method - nobody can tell what the problem is without seeing it. On a shaving forum, I read all kinds of goofiness about microchipping, and so on and so forth until goading half of the people there to buy a microscope. Razor honing is different, done less often, but has to be done deliberately. Most people with problems have created geometry where the finish stone isn't touching the edge ,and they blame something else - and then a small scope will rat them out and suddenly most of the "defective razors" and other anomalies go to the wayside. Rule number one is the edge has to be finished and damage free, #2 is geometry - everything else is far behind. with a 25 degree bevel, you'll never get damage past the last bevel, so there's no need to do lots of work in the steel above the last bevel. If you find the agate is too slow or difficult to fully finish an edge later, send me a PM with what you have available locally and i"ll make a suggestion. There are a lot of natural stones (like the cretans coming out of greece) that are about half as fine and 8 times as fast, and should be not-so-expensive in continental europe. They can be stepped up to an optical polish with simple honing compound, and they do a great job finishing the backs of tools because they're fine, but fast enough.


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## D_W

Adam W. said:


> The ruler trick is ?



propping up a flat-backed tool to make a very shallow secondary bevel on the back so a fine abrasive will work at the tip of a tool. It's a bit of a trap, but useful for beginners to get the feel of a sharp edge.


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## D_W

I have separate advice for knives, but I'll leave it out of here. it's kind of the same principle, except you don't need to do much grinding on knives. Your loupe will come in handy there, too.


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## Jacob

TRITON said:


> Just a minor point there J. You don't sharpen knives on a steel, you hone them.


I sharpen mine.


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## tibi

Adam W. said:


> The ruler trick is ?


Please ask @David C . He is the best to explain this topic.


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## Adam W.

I suspect @tibi that you're just making it far too complicated for yourself and getting your knickers in a twist.

Could you not just try a medium stone to raise a bur, polish it off with a fine stone and give it a strop, and see how you get on?


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## Jacob

Adam W. said:


> I suspect @tibi that you're just making it far too complicated for yourself and getting your knickers in a twist.
> 
> Could you not just try a medium stone to raise a bur, polish it off with a fine stone and give it a strop, and see how you get on?


Spot on. Too many stones and too many ideas just makes it more difficult.
But to get back to the problem - to plane rough oak which has been out in the garden for years you need a scrub plane, or even an adze, to get the surface cleaned up enough to plane.


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## Adam W.

Indeed, but any old plane with a curved iron will do, or does one require a special n' dedicated scrub plane ?

Hmmmm, I wonder.....


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## Ttrees

tibi said:


> Maybe I misunderstood you, but I was thinking that you are talking about lowering the honing angle on the green stone, not having the stones of equal height. What benefit would give me having the stones of equal height with the green stone?


I was going to ask if you were getting a burr on the diamond hones, which I see you have been.
That's a large part of the answer to this question IMO.

Don't know how good my edges would be if things were the other way round, as you can see my sharpening station is pretty high.

Tom


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## Jacob

Adam W. said:


> Indeed, but any old plane with a curved iron will do, or does one require a special n' dedicated scrub plane ?
> 
> Hmmmm, I wonder.....


I base it on my experience with an ECE scrub which does the job really well. Small - about the size of a 3, single iron narrow blade 33mm, tight camber with radius 25mm.
Small means light weight which is good as it's an energetic process, tight radius means deep narrow cut and also means you don't need a wider blade as you'd never get the full 33mm width of cut anyway.
The idea is to remove material fast and deep so you are into the cleaner wood quickly.
It's also very easy to sharpen freehand on a medium stone and it doesn't matter if there are a few nicks as you are only doing rough planing anyway.


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## Adam W.

Yes, they're very good. I have a Lie-Nielsen one too, but don't tell anybody.


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## Woody2Shoes

Adam W. said:


> Yes, they're very good. I have a Lie-Nielsen one too, but don't tell anybody.


I always feel very productive when I use my (LV) one...


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## tibi

Jacob said:


> Spot on. Too many stones and too many ideas just makes it more difficult.
> But to get back to the problem - to plane rough oak which has been out in the garden for years you need a scrub plane, or even an adze, to get the surface cleaned up enough to plane.


I have a Pinie wooden scrub plane, similar to ECE, but less expensive. I have been using it on the oak to remove initial dirt and stones. But the problem is that once I get the board almost flat and I need to make minor adjustment, the blade just will not cut and just slides on the surface. If I increase the cut, it digs in. The surface is clear of dirt at this point. So the issue must be in the sharpness. Once I sharpen, I can make a few passes, but then it stops cutting again. I should be able to get a conitnuous shaving once the wood is flat, but I do not get any shaving, unless I use a freshly sharpened blade.


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## Jacob

What is your actual planing set up like? Are these big timbers On a bench? Maybe you need something in between scrub plane and jack e.g. a jack with a very cambered blade?


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## D_W

what you describe is either a dull blade or lack of clearance (probably the latter). 

Dullness ultimately will create a lack of clearance (and when I get blades from people who use the "sellers method", they always either have lack of polish at the tip, or lack of clearance, or both). 

As you mention that you have a 1k/4k waterstone, i have an experiment for you while you wait for your loupe. 

grind at 25 degrees with the 240k diamond hone (if you're using a guide - I think you said you were), use your guide and iron for a full minute on the finest diamond stone to make sure the grind scratches are 1200 grit. 

Then, work the back of something flat (this should be done with something flat if you have an iron that is) that this is being done with on the 4k grit waterstone side, and then put the bevel of the tool on the waterstone, lift it only a very small amount and pull it 5-10 times, being careful not to roll it steeper. Work the back lightly on the waterstone again and then pull it once at the same angle on your strop. 

work it briskly on your pants or palm then (something with no abrasive), and then check sharpness. It should shave hair easily on both sides (something shaving hair only on one side is incompletely sharpened or hasn't had the burr removed). 

If that's sharper than the agate edge, then you know you have issues. 

a 1200 grit diamond hone (no matter how much someone tells you otherwise) will not create a finished edge and the wire edge is a bear to remove. If you do as paul does and take it off on a leather strop, you're just creating a half dull profile already as both sides will be rounded. 

Charlesworth's method is far better for a beginner as it delineates each step better and you can take what you learn from it and run with it freehand later.


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## tibi

Jacob said:


> What is your actual planing set up like? Are these big timbers On a bench? Maybe you need something in between scrub plane and jack e.g. a jack with a very cambered blade?


I use scrub plane, jack plane and smoothing plane. They are 32 mm boards (10 or 20 cm wide) with various lenghts (0,5 - 2,5 m), as I had to cut off spoiled wood or wood with some broken screws as I used screws on elevated garden bed and some of them just snapped their heads off while disassembling. I plane them on the workbench. I am building currently my workbench, so I am not working with the oak at the moment, but I will build whatever will yield from the wood that is still in good quality (some parts of the boards look like 500 year old church oak pews, so they are of no use). Here is a similar example I found online, but I may take some pictures tomorrow


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## D_W

If you want to talk about sharpening knives, go ahead and start a topic on the Off topic forum, and I'll address that there. 

The trick with knives is that the hardness specs are all over the board, so you can do something that will create a fine edge on tools, but do a poor job on knives. Example, steel around 55 hardness is tough, but won't hold a fine apex. It'll also cut like crazy on natural stones and create a burr. 

If you have good hard steel, your agate stone will struggle to hone it deeply, thus no strong burr will form (maybe none perceptible at all). As I mentioned, if you become very accurate with finishing edges, this can be an asset (it's essentially what leads to good razor sharpening, which is a notch more difficult than knives as the final bevel is about 17 degrees and anything can deflect - one foul stroke and you get to start over, but like everything else, you develop habits that don't foul edges and the tightrope walk feeling goes away). 

The key to sharpening tools other than not having clearance problems and not failing to finish an edge is getting some success and then duplicating the feel. Charlesworth's method is precise, and you get the feel at the outset and then know what to duplicate. Most "gurus" will suggest that you can't match that sharpness without a guide, but you can actually better it a little bit. 

But that's stuff to worry about after you get the loupe and get a feel for nailing the edge just out of feel.


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## tibi

D_W said:


> what you describe is either a dull blade or lack of clearance (probably the latter).
> 
> Dullness ultimately will create a lack of clearance (and when I get blades from people who use the "sellers method", they always either have lack of polish at the tip, or lack of clearance, or both).
> 
> As you mention that you have a 1k/4k waterstone, i have an experiment for you while you wait for your loupe.
> 
> grind at 25 degrees with the 240k diamond hone (if you're using a guide - I think you said you were), use your guide and iron for a full minute on the finest diamond stone to make sure the grind scratches are 1200 grit.
> 
> Then, work the back of something flat (this should be done with something flat if you have an iron that is) that this is being done with on the 4k grit waterstone side, and then put the bevel of the tool on the waterstone, lift it only a very small amount and pull it 5-10 times, being careful not to roll it steeper. Work the back lightly on the waterstone again and then pull it once at the same angle on your strop.
> 
> work it briskly on your pants or palm then (something with no abrasive), and then check sharpness. It should shave hair easily on both sides (something shaving hair only on one side is incompletely sharpened or hasn't had the burr removed).
> 
> If that's sharper than the agate edge, then you know you have issues.
> 
> a 1200 grit diamond hone (no matter how much someone tells you otherwise) will not create a finished edge and the wire edge is a bear to remove. If you do as paul does and take it off on a leather strop, you're just creating a half dull profile already as both sides will be rounded.
> 
> Charlesworth's method is far better for a beginner as it delineates each step better and you can take what you learn from it and run with it freehand later.



My main bevel should be ok, as it is hollow ground on the bench grinder, but my microbevel might be too steep at some sharpenings, indeed. I no longer have a guide as it was severly out of square, so I threw it off. I will try to use 4k stone instead of the agate stone to see if I can get better results. But I would rather use the agate stone, once my technique is corrected, because I do not need to soak it in water and it is less messy overall with oil.


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## Jacob

tibi said:


> I use scrub plane, jack plane and smoothing plane. They are 32 mm boards (10 or 20 cm wide) with various lenghts (0,5 - 2,5 m), as I had to cut off spoiled wood or wood with some broken screws as I used screws on elevated garden bed and some of them just snapped their heads off while disassembling. I plane them on the workbench. I am building currently my workbench, so I am not working with the oak at the moment, but I will build whatever will yield from the wood that is still in good quality (some parts of the boards look like 500 year old church oak pews, so they are of no use). Here is a similar example I found online, but I may take some pictures tomorrow
> View attachment 122450


Belt sander, after the scrub plane. Start with 40 grit and work up through the grits.
If you really want to hand plane them perhaps get some practice in by just planing the 32mm edges and see how that goes. The stuff needs to be very firmly held to have any chance of being able to plane it at all.


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## D_W

tibi said:


> My main bevel should be ok, as it is hollow ground on the bench grinder, but my microbevel might be too steep at some sharpenings, indeed. I no longer have a guide as it was severly out of square, so I threw it off. I will try to use 4k stone instead of the agate stone to see if I can get better results. But I would rather use the agate stone, once my technique is corrected, because I do not need to soak it in water and it is less messy overall with oil.



ahh. got it - I missed the grinder part and thought you were using the 240 diamond. Revised suggestion then - off of the grinder, strokes on the hollow on the 1200 grit stone until you get a strong burr, work the back. Then raise a small amount and pull a few strokes on the 4000 grit stone and then brisk stropping. 

Shapton cream is about where stones don't draw much of a burr on most mid-hardness steel, and light pressure "teasing" off of the edge on slower stones (like your agate) - but again, the pressed agates can be all over the board. I've got a gaggle of microscope pictures, but I'll spare you - toolmaking needs gives me more desire to get high sharpness without much work as the last thing I want to do with a made chisel is spend half an hour grinding the bevel and getting the chisel sharp. It's more like 5 minutes total (but the grinder is a ceramic belt, so not duplicated with a wheel grinder - different class). 

My opinion, though, is the process should be as easy and lazy and forgiving as possible or you'll not do it right or often enough. 

You're ahead at the start just by the fact that you're using a grinder. The only diamond stone you really need is the finest one - the grinder will do the rest to keep wasted effort out of the way.


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## paulrbarnard

Woody2Shoes said:


> I always feel very productive when I use my (LV) one...


I used mine today


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## Hanman-Tools

I have classic Stanley blades ( for no.4 and no.5 hand planes). The whole system cost around 30 EUR, but it does the job.
[/QUOTE]
Hi tibi, 

Out of interest are the Stanley blades made in the USA ?
Years ago when I hung my partner's front door on the refurb of her house, it was one of the heavy types for the building regs. I was trying to plane the edges with my Stanley No. 5 (made in England) and after many a sharpen I picked up a Stanley No. 5 (made in the USA) what a difference. I sharpened the blade/Iron just the once and completed the whole door and to this day I will only use a Stanley (made in the USA) preferably an older one.

This may be a little *controversial* after being a carpenter for some 30 years+. Maybe the English blade/Iron was faulty!

Please excuse me if I've messed up the "Quote" part here, I'm new to this!


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## Cabinetman

Hanman-Tools said:


> I have classic Stanley blades ( for no.4 and no.5 hand planes). The whole system cost around 30 EUR, but it does the job.


Hi tibi,

Out of interest are the Stanley blades made in the USA ?
Years ago when I hung my partner's front door on the refurb of her house, it was one of the heavy types for the building regs. I was trying to plane the edges with my Stanley No. 5 (made in England) and after many a sharpen I picked up a Stanley No. 5 (made in the USA) what a difference. I sharpened the blade/Iron just the once and completed the whole door and to this day I will only use a Stanley (made in the USA) preferably an older one.

This may be a little *controversial* after being a carpenter for some 30 years+. Maybe the English blade/Iron was faulty!

Please excuse me if I've messed up the "Quote" part here, I'm new to this!
[/QUOTE]
Hi, tried Stanley blades in the States and in the UK and didn’t notice any difference, both worked fine - interesting, will keep an eye on it.
Welcome, just say you may want to remove the end of your postcode on your badge, Ian


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## Hanman-Tools

Cabinetman said:


> Hi tibi,
> 
> Out of interest are the Stanley blades made in the USA ?
> Years ago when I hung my partner's front door on the refurb of her house, it was one of the heavy types for the building regs. I was trying to plane the edges with my Stanley No. 5 (made in England) and after many a sharpen I picked up a Stanley No. 5 (made in the USA) what a difference. I sharpened the blade/Iron just the once and completed the whole door and to this day I will only use a Stanley (made in the USA) preferably an older one.
> 
> This may be a little *controversial* after being a carpenter for some 30 years+. Maybe the English blade/Iron was faulty!
> 
> Please excuse me if I've messed up the "Quote" part here, I'm new to this!


Hi, tried Stanley blades in the States and in the UK and didn’t notice any difference, both worked fine - interesting, will keep an eye on it.
Welcome, just say you may want to remove the end of your postcode on your badge, Ian
[/QUOTE]
ThankYou Cabinetman, I have quite a few USA and English Stanley here, the next moment I get I will revert back to English and see how I get on with them now. As a carpenter, I mostly worked softwood so never really noticed any problems.


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## tibi

Cabinetman said:


> Hi tibi,
> 
> Out of interest are the Stanley blades made in the USA ?
> Years ago when I hung my partner's front door on the refurb of her house, it was one of the heavy types for the building regs. I was trying to plane the edges with my Stanley No. 5 (made in England) and after many a sharpen I picked up a Stanley No. 5 (made in the USA) what a difference. I sharpened the blade/Iron just the once and completed the whole door and to this day I will only use a Stanley (made in the USA) preferably an older one.
> 
> This may be a little *controversial* after being a carpenter for some 30 years+. Maybe the English blade/Iron was faulty!
> 
> Please excuse me if I've messed up the "Quote" part here, I'm new to this!


Hi, tried Stanley blades in the States and in the UK and didn’t notice any difference, both worked fine - interesting, will keep an eye on it.
Welcome, just say you may want to remove the end of your postcode on your badge, Ian
[/QUOTE]
Hi Cabinetman, 

I have two old and two new blades. Old blades are made in England and the new are probably made in China.


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## tibi

I went to the shop and tried to plane a face of one board. Interestingly, it cut just fine without any gliding over the surface. I did not even need to sharpen once during the face planing. It is not a top finished surface and I could have flattened it better, If I had more time today, but it is just for an illustration what the wood is like. Maybe I just got better at sharpening since I planed this oak a month ago  

Here is the original painted board with all the debris and holes. In the picture there is also my Pinie european style scrub plane. 





Here is the board after using the scrub plane





after jack plane





After using a dedicated blade with a steeper back bevel in the jack plane





Most of those boards have deep black cracks , maybe caused by water and frost, as you can see on the face and end grain in the third picture. There are a lot of small and large holes after screws. Do you think that they might be worth making some woodshop furniture like shelves or wall cabinet or I should just cut them in pieces and burn in the fireplace in winter? I assume this will no longer be a furniture grade wood. 

I had also an idea to make few wooden stools like Squarerule makes in this video to utilise this old oak. This way I cut cut out holes and other bad parts and make legs and stretchers from the good parts


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## D_W

Cabinetman said:


> Hi, tried Stanley blades in the States and in the UK and didn’t notice any difference, both worked fine - interesting, will keep an eye on it.
> Welcome, just say you may want to remove the end of your postcode on your badge, Ian


Era matters quite a lot - not many english stanley blades here until later (but I have gotten two stanley planes - one made in mexico and then one made in sheffield - the latter plane was defective, but the iron was great (it was recent make). 

Round top irons made in the 70s (presumably some were made in both places) generally softer, and when you go back to the sweetheart era blades and earlier, the hardness is probably about 60 on the C scale. I wore a sweetheart stanley iron and then took 300x magnification pictures -they have surplus carbon, so they are not at all short on carbon and could probably be a lot harder (whereas something like 1095 or O1 at 0.95 will not show much for surplus carbon). 

In short, the older blades are great, and the hardness of the irons seems to have varied based on time frame (the really really old laminated irons are a bit softer, but there may have been an assumption that a user wouldn't have synthetic stones to grind them - old butcher irons are often a bit soft, too - age prior to widespread use of washita stones or futher yet, synthetic stones, and using something like a sandstone to grind shifts favorability in overall effort toward a somewhat softer iron). 

The interesting thing is the notion on blogs, etc, that it's a cost issue. It's definitely not. high carbon high quality rod and bar stock is a couple of dollars per kilo. The difference between 1.1%carbon steel rod and 0.65% carbon rod is probably about 10 cents per plane, but a site guy planing dirt may like a soft iron better as it won't chip much and will be easy to resharpen. 

Long story short, if the irons are same hardness, I haven't seen a difference between USA and English. Irons in the round top era do seem to be soft (but would work fine on softwoods). 

Seeing a stanley iron show more carbon than O1 was a bit of a shock. At some point, I'll reharden one and temper it to 400F and see where it lands as far as hardness goes.


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## jcassidy

Hi Tibi,

I'm not going to suggest anything sharpening wise; I'm still doing it the way I learnt in school! (I have added a strop and that green compound stuff, magical!) But I would say, some wood just isn't worth blunting your tools on, except to get more practise in sharpening! 

I think that stuff - cracks and all - would make lovely rustic stools, shelves, picture frames etc. but I'd be using my power-tools for most of the sizing & squaring. Keep the hand tools for the final sizing & finishing, your superbly sharpened planes should leave a fantasic finish. 

Some folks are going a bit mad filling cracks with resin and other tricks. I think there's been a few items in 'the last thing I made' thread on that.


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## Jacob

jcassidy said:


> ..... Keep the hand tools for the final sizing & finishing, your superbly sharpened planes should leave a fantasic finish.....


Yes except for the scrub plane which is brilliant for cleaning up a surface, taking off the grit, finding the nails, before you put it near a machine. Just for reclaimed rubbish, you wouldn't need it on clean fresh sawn wood.
Re sharpening in general - after years trying things out I now only use 2 oil stones, though I've still got dozens of the booglers, even after selling stuff off.
One is Norton IB8, fine side, for most things most of the time, the other is Norton "0" fine side for a bit extra fineness.
No power grinder, no jigs, freehand rounded bevels. Occasional strop on a piece of leather.
I use the coarse side of the IB8 for an axe.


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## tibi

jcassidy said:


> Hi Tibi,
> 
> I'm not going to suggest anything sharpening wise; I'm still doing it the way I learnt in school! (I have added a strop and that green compound stuff, magical!) But I would say, some wood just isn't worth blunting your tools on, except to get more practise in sharpening!
> 
> I think that stuff - cracks and all - would make lovely rustic stools, shelves, picture frames etc. but I'd be using my power-tools for most of the sizing & squaring. Keep the hand tools for the final sizing & finishing, your superbly sharpened planes should leave a fantasic finish.
> 
> Some folks are going a bit mad filling cracks with resin and other tricks. I think there's been a few items in 'the last thing I made' thread on that.



As I have only a thickness planer, so I need to use hand planes at least for a reference face and edge. or face + two edges, if the board is more than 160 mm wide and I cannot stand it on its edge to run through a thickness planer.


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## jcassidy

LoL actually After having dinged irons on hidden nails several times, i prefer to use a second hand electric planer to find the pippers... packs of new blades only €8 on Amazon!!


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## Jacob

tibi said:


> I went to the shop and tried to plane a face of one board. Interestingly, it cut just fine without any gliding over the surface. I did not even need to sharpen once during the face planing. .........


  You are not the first to tread this path!
Basically it's about skill, not sharpening.
By the time you've fiddled about with various options suggested by modern sharpen enthusiasts, perhaps bought some expensive kit, you find that you've simply got better at it, even if you go back to square one!
As it happens I found a bit of oak gatepost in my woodpile and couldn't resist having a go:
One stroke with a scrub plane:






This is the mouth of the ECE, I've enlarged it a bit for fatter shavings. 
The blade is rounded in both directions! Don't tell anybody!







10 seconds later:






20 seconds later cutting the diagonal the other way:






Then scrub along the grain for 30 seconds:










Followed by a No3 above,






Followed by a 4 1/2 for smooth and flat






About 5 minutes work.

3 planes , all freehand sharpened, no grindstone, rounded bevels, medium oil stone, no fine stone, no stropping, no "ruler trick", squiggle of candle wax.






PS The No 3 has a plastic handles but you wouldn't know except for the seam you can see on top of the handle. Perfectly good quality plane.


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## Cabinetman

Good bit of debunking there Jacob, never use anything other than a very ordinary combination stone doubtful if it’s higher than a 400 grit, Stanley nr4 plane needs sharpening? 2/3 mins and I’m back to work. All these stones in the 4000, 8000, esoteric end? Just not necessary in my opinion, unless you’re a heart surgeon perhaps.
All my furniture is finished from the plane, and it’s not very often it sees any sandpaper, this excessive sharpening malarkey is bound to put people off woodworking and that’s not good. Ian


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## Jacob

Cabinetman said:


> Good bit of debunking there Jacob,


 My pleasure!
Forgot to add - no jigs, no stone flattening. I did have to flatten the face of the blade on that 4 1/2 (recent ebay purchase) to bring it back from the dead, it was in a bad way for no obvious reason. Did it on a sanding disc on my lathe.
The 2nd big killer (after the jig) which makes sharpening so problematic for many is the grindstone. Millions of blued blades in use, many looking as though nibbled by rats, "hollow grind" fundamentally weakens the already blued edge, etc. Kiss of death!


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## Jacob

Hanman-Tools said:


> .......
> 
> Out of interest are the Stanley blades made in the USA ?
> Years ago when I hung my partner's front door on the refurb of her house, it was one of the heavy types for the building regs. I was trying to plane the edges with my Stanley No. 5 (made in England) and after many a sharpen I picked up a Stanley No. 5 (made in the USA) what a difference. I sharpened the blade/Iron just the once and completed the whole door and to this day I will only use a Stanley (made in the USA) preferably an older one.
> 
> This may be a little *controversial* after being a carpenter for some 30 years+. Maybe the English blade/Iron was faulty!
> 
> Please excuse me if I've messed up the "Quote" part here, I'm new to this!


The bad blade may have just been overheated by too much machine grinding. Would slowly improve with regular freehand sharpening removing the softened edge.


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## Adam W.

Cabinetman said:


> Good bit of debunking there Jacob, never use anything other than a very ordinary combination stone doubtful if it’s higher than a 400 grit, Stanley nr4 plane needs sharpening? 2/3 mins and I’m back to work. All these stones in the 4000, 8000, esoteric end? Just not necessary in my opinion, unless you’re a heart surgeon perhaps.
> All my furniture is finished from the plane, and it’s not very often it sees any sandpaper, this excessive sharpening malarkey is bound to put people off woodworking and that’s not good. Ian


I use a bit of slate with WD40 for a polish followed by a strop with cheapo green screwfix compound, I do think it makes a difference.

As for inspecting an edge under a loupe........it's either sharp or it isn't, so what's the point?


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## Jacob

Adam W. said:


> I use a bit of slate with WD40 for a polish followed by a strop with cheapo green screwfix compound, I do think it makes a difference.
> 
> As for inspecting an edge under a loupe........it's either sharp or it isn't, so what's the point?


Well yes stropping won't do any harm but it won't make the difference between planing or not being able to plane at all, which was tibis prob.
I sometimes think stropping/polishing may be more to do with reducing friction as the shavings get forced past, rather than making a sharper edge - which wouldn't stay super sharp for long.


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## Adam W.

I definitely makes the edge sharper and carving spruce capitals proved that point for me. As for longevity of a sharp edge, I don't know and just sharpen when I feel I need to.

But then I've also got a Tormek, so there's no hope for me.


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## D_W

Adam W. said:


> I use a bit of slate with WD40 for a polish followed by a strop with cheapo green screwfix compound, I do think it makes a difference.
> 
> As for inspecting an edge under a loupe........it's either sharp or it isn't, so what's the point?



It absolutely improves the edge and if done properly, it improves the longevity. The inexpensive store compounds are generally very fine and high quality. Almost all compounds are predominantly alumina and something occurred in terms of production method to make them cheap.

The loupe is important for learning, not just to see if sharpening is complete, but to then figure out how to get it faster and faster.

You'll get a better sense for sharpness benefits carving than most people will with planes and chisels.


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## D_W

Cabinetman said:


> Good bit of debunking there Jacob, never use anything other than a very ordinary combination stone doubtful if it’s higher than a 400 grit, Stanley nr4 plane needs sharpening? 2/3 mins and I’m back to work. All these stones in the 4000, 8000, esoteric end? Just not necessary in my opinion, unless you’re a heart surgeon perhaps.
> All my furniture is finished from the plane, and it’s not very often it sees any sandpaper, this excessive sharpening malarkey is bound to put people off woodworking and that’s not good. Ian



It takes about a minute to finish a plane iron with something like a 1 micron finish. The trick is to do the work you're doing properly, and then just add the fine finish at the tip. You get all of the benefits, and the amount of effort that you save is a large multiple of the effort of working over the tip. 

I don't mean an extra minute, I mean to use something like a washita stone or an india stone and work over an iron and then use a compound of some sort just to work the tip. 

I tested plane irons two years ago and just the difference in edge life between 1 and 5 micron diamonds is about 50% increase (and the 1 micron iron for the last number of feet that match the 5 micron edge is easier through the wood). Adam has a bit of a leg up because he'll feel every aspect of this carving, but it's there on planes and chisels. The only way it can't be had is in dirty wood or something that damages edges (the geometry is the controlling factor for an edge if one can be made to stand up). 

The reason for the loupe for people starting out is to learn to get the finish work only at the tip so it takes the place of stropping and doesn't add time. 

In terms of expensive stones like the shapton 30k or any other sharpening anything over a hundred bucks...there's definitely no practical benefit to it other than convenience for folks who are fans of a guru. Or, who just want to believe that somehow a shapton 30k edge that looks the same under a scope as a $3 edge gotten on compound is better - even if it doesn't look different or last longer.


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## cowtown_eric

SHARPENING-what a rabbet hole

Got too many sharpening gizmos, grinders, and gadgets, but the site-truck has fine grit Wet/dry sandpaper that does just fine.....a system called "scary-sharp"

Eric


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