# Bench Top with clamps/pegs?



## LancsRick (10 Feb 2016)

Just wondering if there were any favoured/tried-and-tested approaches on here to putting clamping aids on a benchtop? The bench I've got is just a plywood top (2x 18mm, one sacrificial) which doesn't let itself to the easy securing of workpieces. Clearly there are many things I could do involving a pegboard style approach or fitting lips to the top with through-holes for screwed clamps, but I'm guessing many people have walked this road before me and will have some suggestions.

Area is approx 7ft x 4ft.

Thanks!


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## ED65 (10 Feb 2016)

Is the total thickness of the top 18mm Rick?


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## LancsRick (10 Feb 2016)

Nope, 2x 18mm giving 36mm, onto a 3"x4" timber frame with horizontal slats.


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## AndyT (10 Feb 2016)

Have a look at this video, in which Roy Underhill demonstrates a selection of clamping options which could be useful. 

http://video.unctv.org/video/2365326358/

I do sometimes use a simple piece of ply with a triangular cut-out and a matching wedge to hold a workpiece on edge, on top of the bench.







(Edited to correct link.)


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## ED65 (10 Feb 2016)

Okay well at that thickness traditional holdfasts are an option, that would be a good start. I've also seen some recent builds where dog holes were drilled large enough to allow the passage of the bars on F-clamps or quick clamp which is another quick clamping option.


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## MusicMan (10 Feb 2016)

I've had 19 mm holes for Veritas bench pegs for many years and find them very useful, in combination with an end vice (home-made, continental style). I've used some screw down holdfasts (Sears, Wolf) and though they were usable they didn't grip very well.

I've recently got a couple of the new holdfasts from Workshop Heaven, and am a total convert. They grip very well, and using the trick of using a flat batten with a triangular 90 deg rebate (google holdfast planing) work is held beautifully solidly and flat for planing. I don't use the end vice any more for this.

AndyT's wedge trick above is new to me but looks incredibly useful for holding pieces on edge.

Keith


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## LancsRick (10 Feb 2016)

That's a new one for me Andy, thanks for the idea!

As wonderfully traditional as holdfasts are, the handforged ones aren't cheap, and my understanding is that the mass produced ones aren't nearly as good since you need the forging action to give the material properties desirable in a holdfast?

So far I'm thinking I'll go with the option of drilling some holes (which I'll have to do irrespective of pegs or holdfasts), and see how I get on with some wooden pegs.


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## MusicMan (10 Feb 2016)

The holdfasts were £50 a pair, with a 19 mm drill thrown in. I thought it was an indulgence but very much worth while.

There's no significant difference in the relevant elastic properties between forged and bent holdfasts. Casting doesn't work of course as they'd break. The key to making them work is getting the shape just right. You can look at the thread written by the late and much lamented Richard Tomes (whom I didn't know but wish I had) to see his development of forged holdfasts.

I haven't tried the mass produced ones, but there is no reason they shouldn't work so far as the material and process are concerned. Even if you whack them in as hard as possible, the material is not stressed anywhere near its limit (unless it is cast iron, which cracks at a low stress.

Edit: there is an interesting review of Gramercy holdfasts here: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools ... real-story. However I don't know if anyone sells them in the UK. Anyone?

Keith


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## ED65 (12 Feb 2016)

Here's a drawing I coincidentally happened across only yesterday that makes it easier to visualise how you'd use a quick clamp as a kind of holdfast:






Using a type of wedging action to hold boards vertical for jointing is a time-honoured technique, here are some versions of the same basic idea with dates:






But perhaps the simplest way to do it is just with pegs and a wedge:








LancsRick":21y10t2y said:


> So far I'm thinking I'll go with the option of drilling some holes (which I'll have to do irrespective of pegs or holdfasts), and see how I get on with some wooden pegs.


Once you're committed to drilling holes in the bench you can use them for much more than just pegs, useful as those are. If it seems like it would be useful you can make numerous temporary stops that rely on them, such as this setup for face planing:


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## Jacob (12 Feb 2016)

ED65":mnu19gs2 said:


> .....
> But perhaps the simplest way to do it is just with pegs and a wedge:
> ....


Simplest way is with a Record vice. They'll hold anything from a little box side to a very big joist, and whole boxes, drawers, small items up to the width of the opening. Most of these bench top holding systems then become redundant.
NB a great deal of work is done on bench tops with no holding at all e.g. planing against stops, or vertical work like morticing which requires no holding. 
PS I wouldn't drill any holes in advance. Wait until you need to - you'll be surprised at how few you need. Or just nail/screw stops as necessary. A wide piece of board (rather than a lath) clamped to the top is good as a planing stop as the board width puts the clamps out of range of the plane and avoids holes/screws.


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## AndyT (12 Feb 2016)

Another variation on the theme, once you have a holdfast or two and some holes in the bench:






Here I am planing the short piece of oak, too thin to hold in a vice. I tried just planing against a plain stop but found that gave me too little control, and the wood skidded round, so I wanted both ends held. To give me room to run the plane off, and to span the gap to the next hole, I used a scrap of thin plywood, held down onto the bench, and a wedge against the holdfast stem.






At the other end, the wooden peg is just a piece of hardwood (holly branch in this case) with a notch cut in the top. It is very slightly not straight, which makes it a suffuciently tight fit in the hole, with no need for wires, springs etc.


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## Jacob (12 Feb 2016)

That's a very elaborate and inconvenient way of doing a simple little job! I think you just need a bit more practice with planing against stops. What if you had a few dozen to do, with different lengths?


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## AndyT (12 Feb 2016)

Jacob":3cyvabin said:


> That's a very elaborate and inconvenient way of doing a simple little job! I think you just need a bit more practice with planing against stops. What if you had a few dozen to do, with different lengths?



I had, as I said, tried planing against my bench stop, and, as I said, found that the small, light, hard piece of old oak skidded round, making it hard to control. I did have quite a few to do, all about the same length, as they were runners, sides and ends for small drawers. 

So it was worth my while to find a method which suited me, at my skill level, for these fiddly pieces which I needed to reduce from roughly 1/2" to 3/8" thick. My bench has a stop, a Record 52½ and holes for holdfasts, but no tail vice. This method gave me sufficient end pressure while leaving the work clear.

I don't work in a production environment, so sometimes I will take time to experiment with different methods of doing something - gaining experience so that I can make comparisons. I found this method simple and convenient. It needed a piece of scrap from behind the bench, cut to size on the bandsaw - time taken, about thirty seconds - and a wedge from the box of wedges.


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## Jacob (12 Feb 2016)

You could plane against your holly stop on it's own but there is a bit of a knack which comes rapidly with practice - the centre of effort has to be in line with the stop i.e. you have to aim your plane at the stop, not to the side of it. This may mean moving your workpiece a touch, to line up your next cut with the stop. Sounds fiddly but it becomes second nature.
A wider stop helps of course - with a flat face; round stops are a mistake. I've got just one on my bench, about 25mm square. I've also got a hold-down, which I never seem to find a use for.


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## AndyT (12 Feb 2016)




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## Jacob (12 Feb 2016)

Looks good!


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## ED65 (12 Feb 2016)

Jacob":kvgl06je said:


> ED65":kvgl06je said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...


Simplest type of _wedging action to hold boards vertical _Jacob. There's enough things to legitimately have differences of opinion on, you don't have to go misinterpreting things to find stuff to disagree with :-" 

So anyway, this particular contest is won by a bird's mouth and peg, not by a vice.


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## Jacob (12 Feb 2016)

ED65":1e3fd7lu said:


> Jacob":1e3fd7lu said:
> 
> 
> > ED65":1e3fd7lu said:
> ...


If you are going to use wedges you hardly need the bench. A simple door wedge (or two) will do it better. Sitting on the bench, or on saw stools, or the floor. But if you've actually got a bench it's madness to make life difficult - fiddling about with building site techniques and not fitting a Record vice!


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## ED65 (13 Feb 2016)

Jacob":1neddc7q said:


> But if you've actually got a bench it's madness to make life difficult - fiddling about with building site techniques and not fitting a Record vice!


Tell that to a Chinese carpenter :lol: 

I might have given you the wrong impression, I'm not against a face vice at all. I was very happy to come into possession of a vintage Woden quick-release vice before Christmas. But the effectiveness of some alternative workholding solutions is undeniable. What works, works, irrespective of whether it would fit in with standard workshop practice in a given woodworking tradition.


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## Dan j (19 Feb 2016)

I only used a record vice for years, until an engineer friend made me a couple of hold downs as a gift and i decided to try them.
Since then I've found that i use both the vice and hold down/wedges/pegs etc equally.
Different jobs sometimes require different holding techniques. There's no right or wrong way.




Jacob":3cox0flc said:


> - the centre of effort has to be in line with the stop i.e. you have to aim your plane at the stop, not to the side of it. This may mean moving your workpiece a touch, to line up your next cut with the stop. Sounds fiddly but it becomes second nature.



Do you have to adapt your technique for planing wide boards? Do they end up overhanging the bench and getting in your way?


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## BenCviolin (20 Feb 2016)

A simple thru cut bench stop like that one above is very useful, and if done well is hard to beat. 
The flush mounted aluminium spring stops look ideal but to fit them well takes ages. 
Record vice with big chops is hard to beat, as is a German cabinet maker's bench
with an end vice. Then there's the patternmaker's vices, the small ball joint ones, 
the mechanics vice....I use em all for different things.


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## Jacob (20 Feb 2016)

Dan j":hvwu4g5h said:


> I only used a record vice for years, until an engineer friend made me a couple of hold downs as a gift and i decided to try them.
> Since then I've found that i use both the vice and hold down/wedges/pegs etc equally.
> Different jobs sometimes require different holding techniques. There's no right or wrong way.
> 
> ...


Might need a wider stop. Many ways of doing this; if you have just one stop you can lay a lath across the bench with one end against the stop and the far end clamped (or nailed etc). Or clamp a bit of board at the bench end, as a stop - wide enough for the clamp to be out of reach of the plane.
Or mount a board with laths nailed on as stops, and plane on top of the board. 
If you don't already have in place a collection of dog holes, hold downs, end vices etc you name it, you'll probably find it's actually easier to do without them and just cobble something together ad hoc as necessary.
Hold downs look a good idea but you can't use them for planing (they get in the way) but if you are chopping vertically you don't need a hold down anyway. Or if you do use a hold down it has to be so tight it'll make a mark. I've got one but hardly ever find a use for it.


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## ED65 (20 Feb 2016)

Jacob":4igvc59r said:


> Hold downs look a good idea but you can't use them for planing (they get in the way)


When face planing a hold-down or holdfast would most commonly be used to clamp a stop in place (at both ends of a thin board spanning the bench), or if there's a fixed or rising stop one holdfast would hold a bird-mouth batten on the near back corner as shown here by Richard Maguire.



Jacob":4igvc59r said:


> if you are chopping vertically you don't need a hold down anyway. Or if you do use a hold down it has to be so tight it'll make a mark.


Marking is a non-issue. You either line the 'jaw' with cork or leather or use an intermediate slip of wood, just as with a c-clamp or a traditional steel sash clamp.


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## Jacob (20 Feb 2016)

Yebbut you can do it quite well without hold-downs or a "bird-mouth batten". Keep it simple. Not sure what that photo is supposed to show. He has a stop at the end of the bench and doesn't need anything else.
The trouble with so many gadgets and crafty wheezes is that they so often look like "a good idea" but in fact aren't necessary and may even hold up the job.


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## Dan j (20 Feb 2016)

Jacob":3vtgc1xr said:


> Yebbut you can do it quite well without hold-downs or a "bird-mouth batten". Keep it simple. Not sure what that photo is supposed to show. He has a stop at the end of the bench and doesn't need anything else.



This video kind of shows why you'd use a bird-mouth batten or some other holding method rather than just planing at a stop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNrof3cd1cA
You can see at about 3 minutes in what i meant about a wide board overhanging and getting in the way. 
Suppose a wide stop is a solution.

Jacob, I have had this same argument/discussion with my Dad who I did my apprenticeship with.
He says pretty much exactly what you have said.

Guess sometimes you just have to agree to differ. :roll:


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## Jacob (20 Feb 2016)

How it works is - if you don't have a tail vice, a birdsmouth batten, a holdfast, etc, you magically find that you don't need them and the work is slightly easier. Often, not always.


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## ED65 (21 Feb 2016)

Jacob":3h5mkwvd said:


> Yebbut you can do it quite well without hold-downs or a "bird-mouth batten". Keep it simple. Not sure what that photo is supposed to show. He has a stop at the end of the bench and doesn't need anything else.


Perhaps you could explain how you face plane diagonally using just an end stop? 

I plane regularly using just one stop across the work surface so I am already a big fan of working this way, but on thin or narrow boards in particular as soon as you need to work remotely on the diagonal you need something else as well. And a batten (held by a holdfast or any suitable clamp) is a very good _something else _for the purpose. 



Jacob":3h5mkwvd said:


> The trouble with so many gadgets and crafty wheezes is that they so often look like "a good idea" but in fact aren't necessary and may even hold up the job.


I'm fully in favour of the most efficient means to an end Jacob, so I am with you on the principle. 

But with respect you're again missing the boat on how speedy and effective some of these 'gadgets and crafty wheezes' are. Perhaps it's because you don't use any of them that you don't realise how they work for experienced users but a holdfast for example takes (I think literally) two seconds to set. Even if I'm off by a factor of five that's hardly a time penalty worth noting.


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## AndyT (21 Feb 2016)

Maybe, as before, what's missing on this discussion is a bit of context.
If the work you are doing is domestic joinery, the work you need to hold will all be within the range of sizes for which your trad joiner's bench is ideal. 

But if you mix in some furniture making, model making, musical instrument making, carving etc then the vice and benchstop may not be the whole answer.

It would soon get a bit boring if every post began "in a joinery context" or "when making an oud" or whatever, but it might clear up some of the apparent contradictions we get when one poster says he finds something useful and another poster (who is working on or thinking about something quite different) says it's not necessary.


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## Jacob (22 Feb 2016)

ED65":2bykosvb said:


> Jacob":2bykosvb said:
> 
> 
> > Yebbut you can do it quite well without hold-downs or a "bird-mouth batten". Keep it simple. Not sure what that photo is supposed to show. He has a stop at the end of the bench and doesn't need anything else.
> ...


I'd use a back stop too - usually a bit of lath pinned to the bench, or a board clamped on, or just two screws. There are many variations.


> ...e some of these 'gadgets and crafty wheezes' are. Perhaps it's because you don't use any of them that you don't realise how they work for experienced users but a holdfast for example takes (I think literally) two seconds to set. Even if I'm off by a factor of five that's hardly a time penalty worth noting.


I thought the same but I find a holdfast is inconvenient unless you have a huge number of alternative holes to drop it in. This excludes the Record screw type completely (each hole needs an insert) but the smith made single iron is more viable, but still gets in the way.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Feb 2016)

I put loads of holes in mine and spaced some so I could bolt my drill stand and morticer through them if needed. I don't think there's an inch of the front of the top a holdfast can't reach. I lined up some on the back so I could put two stops well apart and square to the front.


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## bugbear (22 Feb 2016)

Jacob":vg7xvwtl said:


> ... but if you are chopping vertically you don't need a hold down anyway.



This is self-evidently only true for large workpieces - so probably true for architectural joinery,
but certainly not true for finer work. The friction of the chisel on the mortice
sides can pick small workpieces up in a most annoying fashions, so they need holding.

Truly large workpieces don't need holding at all - timber framers don't use workbenches.

Context is all, as Andy keeps trying to point out.

BugBear


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## BenCviolin (22 Feb 2016)

These bench stop inserts look great and work quite well but they take ages to fit properly. 
http://www.axminster.co.uk/morticed-bench-stop-340133


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## Jacob (22 Feb 2016)

bugbear":16sgzmfn said:


> Jacob":16sgzmfn said:
> 
> 
> > ... but if you are chopping vertically you don't need a hold down anyway./quote]
> ...


Finer work fine. Better in fact without holding, as long as it is rectangular, you have a clean flat bench top (or board on top of bench) and the chopping is vertical


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## DTR (23 Feb 2016)

BenCviolin":1oz7xy3d said:


> These bench stop inserts look great and work quite well but they take ages to fit properly.
> http://www.axminster.co.uk/morticed-bench-stop-340133



I had one of these but in practice I found it a pain to use. Relatively speaking, it takes ages to wind it up or down, if compared to a traditional wooden stop. Also the cavity below the toothed part would will fill with shavings and dust, stopping the toothed part from winding all the way back in.


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## MusicMan (23 Feb 2016)

+1 for DTR's comments. I had one on an earlier bench but did not fit one on the next, for the same reasons. I now use 19mm holes, Veritas dogs and Workshop Heaven holdfasts and fine them all much superior and more flexible.

Keith


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## mathias (23 Feb 2016)

AndyT":1muirecp said:


> Have a look at this video, in which Roy Underhill demonstrates a selection of clamping options which could be useful.
> 
> http://video.unctv.org/video/2365326358/
> 
> ...



In the video Roy removes the moving part of the vice by pulling it out easily. Are all (Record/Woden/Parkinson) vices like this?


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Feb 2016)

If you take the retaining pin out of the end of the screw. I replaced mine with a cotter pin so that if I wish to clean the thread and slides up properly I just remove the pin and pull it out as he did.


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## OM99 (25 Feb 2016)

This might be of interest, found it by mistake but there is no bench vise and he mostly uses holdfast.

some very clever way to hold down the stock for various tasks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhn-PAfEW4

Olivier


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## Bm101 (25 Feb 2016)

You guys have probably seen the idea before, but I saw one fella somewhere using scraps of wood with a 20mm hole in as semi permanent collars for his holdfasts. Idea being you cinch it up to the top and you're never grabbing for a scrap of wood to stop the holdfast marking your work, its already there but you can move out the way if needed. Suppose you could add a birds mouth to the end of it as well for holding/planing when needed and just clamp the holdfast to the bench to keep it out the way.


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## DiscoStu (25 Feb 2016)

My bench is currently 2 x 18mm MDF boards, however I'm going down the MFT style slab route so I can use a lot more clamping options as well as my Parf Dogs.

http://www.multifunctionslab.com/


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## mathias (25 Feb 2016)

phil.p":1yasf05c said:


> If you take the retaining pin out of the end of the screw. I replaced mine with a cotter pin so that if I wish to clean the thread and slides up properly I just remove the pin and pull it out as he did.



If the little "end plate" comes of easy then I could live with that. Thanks Phil


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