# selling wooden toys



## tsg (20 Feb 2013)

Hello again,
I have been searching high and low for a "how to" regarding making and selling wooden toys, nothing special just cars, helicopters, boats... that kind of thing. I have read a lot of posts on here about this but most are quite old and I want to be up to date before I make a big mistake.
I'm not stupid (well not very ) but the amount of reading I have done through various websites has really confused me. Have I got to get every one of my own creations tested, whether that be by myself or otherwise, or can I just say that I made a similar one the other day and it was fine.
I think I understand most of the self certifying CE thing, but as each toy is individually made, no two are ever the same, and therefore 'that' toy will never have been tested.
I have given a number of them out to friends to test, with mixed results, my helicopter rotors have to be stronger and so I have made a few out of reclaimed 6mm ply. It does seem a lot sturdier.
Please have a look at the website I made to showcase the toys I have made, and feel free to either leave comments here or on there.

http://www.2shortplanks.co.uk/

As you will see, there is very little that can go wrong ( I hope ) so why have all the rules and regs made me so paranoid??
Any other would be toy makers out there please get in touch so that we can swap/exchange/steal ideas.
Thanks in advance

Paul


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## Odo (20 Feb 2013)

It's a lot more complicated than you might think.

At some point I was planning on doing the same with some of the things I had made, phoned up trading standards and the woman I spoke to gave me a massive list of things that need to be taken into account.

I suggest you get in contact with them, they are a hive of knowledge with this kind of thing.


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## tomatwark (20 Feb 2013)

You will need CE marking to sell them, especially if you are selling online to people you do not know.

Also making them out of reclaimed wood may also be a problem as the timber type may vary, which may alter the CE mark and if it is reclaimed and has been finished in some way there maybe residual stuff in the grain which could be poisonous. 

I would certainly give trading standards a ring before you sell anything . 

Also you will need product liability insurance as well.

Tom


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## loftyhermes (20 Feb 2013)

UK law states that any toy sold must conform to BS EN71 1 -3. 
see here for the full info. https://www.gov.uk/toy-manufacturers-an ... sibilities
But basically it's the following,
In the UK the law says that “any product or material designed or clearly intended for use in play by children of less than 14 years of age” with the explanation that “If it looks like a toy and is made with child appeal it is a toy”
So, if you make “toys” that you sell, you have a responsibility to get them CE marked. You can self certify or get your toy tested by a testing house.
Selling unmarked toys is a criminal offence and can result in fines of up to £5000 or imprisonment, so it really isn’t worth putting your head in the sand and ignoring it.


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## graduate_owner (20 Feb 2013)

I was browsing through some old woodworking magazines last week, and I came upon an article updating readers on the current (i.e. as it was then - about 1995 ! !) regulations. It was enough to put me right off the idea, and I expect the Eurocrats in Brussels have added bucketloads of regulations since then. I think a discussion with trading standards would be a very sensible way to start. Avoiding any materials that you cannot guarantee with a paper trail is another worthwhile idea - no recycled or reclaimed materials. You really need the paper trail to 'cover your ar*e' in case of issues further down the line, then you can justifiably claim that all materials were appropriate for the purpose. Keep all receipts.

K


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## tsg (20 Feb 2013)

Thanks for all the advice, I was fully aware that it wouldn't be easy regarding the CE mark but it really does appear that it is not going to be worth the effort. I hadn't even considered the problems using reclaimed woods, if every part of every toy has to have a pedigree certificate the costs wood soon spiral. 
I really enjoy making these toys for my grand children and I had hoped to make a few to sell as well but I will have to come up with another idea. I've just ordered the mechanism for a clock so we will have to see how that works out.
I will keep with the reclaimed timber theme as I have just got hold of an old bed frame with a chunky head board. I've scratched some of the paint off and I'm pretty sure it is beech. Weighs a ton so will have fun cutting it down and cleaning it up. Maybe some fancy end grain chopping boards are in order
Thanks again

Paul


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## Smithy (24 Feb 2013)

Hi

I am interested in selling wooden toys and hope to concentrate on the Christmas markets this year. I appreciate that the standards that apply in Europe are designed to protect the health of children and should be adhered to. To do this we must be totally convinced that the materials we use must meet the required standard and I assume we can self declare that our toys are safe. Here in France I buy paint that is marked as safe for childrens toys (EN71-3), which as previously stated is a European standard. Where I think it becomes difficult is the add ons. In my case the cord I use for pull along toys and the rubber I use for the feet of the push along ducks. 

Is it possible that any potential toymakers on this forum could pool their resources in finding materials that meet the required standard. I think it is a shame if potential toy makers look at the regulations and decide to give up before they have started. I believe there is a market for artisan made wooden toys. If we all give up we are playing into the hands of the foreign multi nationals. 

I hope this year to make simple wooden toys with the minimum of add ons and try to find materials that come with a declaration that they are child safe so that I can self declare that my toys are child safe and I can apply the CE mark.

Mike.


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## beech1948 (24 Feb 2013)

I have just read the British Standard and EU regulations cover to cover. My interest was in using my CNC machine to create a number of wooden painted toys.

The legislation is aimed at big business and does apply to small business.

The issue is that to get into this biz you need to keep detailed and thorough records and lots of them. In themselves they do not appear onerous and the details could be copied from the legislation and turned into a check list which could be used as the internal assessment. Maybe 60 pages max

Self certification is possible.

For those who just gave up try doing the reading and then see what you feel as it looks more possible then the above messages indicate.

Al


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## Smithy (24 Feb 2013)

Hi Al

I agree with you. I am sure it can be done. As an ex civil servant I appreciate that goverment publications can be daunting. But when you cut through the dressing (polite term) the facts can be found. As you stated you need to keep exemplary records/paper trail and be sure of your source. I am thinking of a file for each toy I make with details of all materials used and where sourced and there suitability for toys.

I hope this thread continues.

Mike


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## Smithy (24 Feb 2013)

Hi
I have just found a CE self certification support group on Facebook. It looks a great place to answer questions on the suitability/availability of child safe products.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fieldpowe ... ge?fref=ts

Mike


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## tsg (25 Feb 2013)

Mike, I hope this thread continues as well, as just knowing that there are others out there trying to do the same thing gives me a little hope.
As far as I am aware all the materials I use are child friendly. 
The paints are acrylic gloss from Baker Ross which carry the CE mark, and the lacquer is acrylic lacquer from Mylands advertised as food safe.
I have been using standard wood glue which is water based and I assume is safe - I will be checking tomorrow.
My main problem is how do you certify the wood itself as being safe? I know all mine is reclaimed, but even if I bought it how can I know. Would this mean that I would have to have a sample of each piece of wood tested for any chemicals that may be found in it? If this is the case I'm on another downer already!
And the thought of having a 60 page file for each and every toy that is worth maybe £5 - £10 on a good day seems to make it a non starter on it's own. Serious downer. Time to speak with trading standards for the definitive answer.
Paul


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## Smithy (25 Feb 2013)

Hi Paul
Good luck with Trading Standards. I am glad you are persevering. I thought that a file for each toy would consist of a breakdown of the materials, thier origin, make up and a and proof of their child safety. In the case of wooden toys I would have thought that other materials would be minimal. I will keep on trawling the net and hope that between us we can find the answers.
Mike


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## beech1948 (25 Feb 2013)

tsg":36mzxahh said:


> And the thought of having a 60 page file for each and every toy that is worth maybe £5 - £10 on a good day seems to make it a non starter on it's own. Serious downer. Time to speak with trading standards for the definitive answer.
> Paul



P. You got slightly the wrong end of the stick. The guestimated 60 pages is per production run no matter if it runs for 5 yrs. The point of the legislation is posterior covering hence the records and the provision of the " wan't me it was him" defence. So if all your components are CE labelled, come with a BS EN71 compliance certificate then you are OK.

Using recovered wood means you broadly have two choices a) You know the source of the materials recovery or b) you do not. In one case (a) you may be able to show that material came from non-chemical infested source inc outdoor green/brown treatments and if you do some inspection then OK in (b) you may have to test at least for the minimums named against specific chemicals in the EU legisation; there are about 7 of these. High school level chemistry would suffice to test for presence and if present then don't use.

Remember the bureaucrats will gold plate everything since its not their cash.

Keep in touch
Al


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## Lee J (26 Feb 2013)

I had a horrible thought yesterday. I've been planning some big chunky 3 piece jigsaw teddy bears to sell at craft fairs. these are aimed at very young kiddies. Cut a teddy bear shape out of 12mm MDF using the scroll saw, then cut it up into 3 pieces to create a jigsaw. Then paint it with child friendly paints in lovely bright colours. 

Only thing is, when that kiddy puts a piece into his/her mouth they're chewing on MDF which is probably really bad for them. I'd never even considered it until yesterday! Good job I've not made any yet let alone sold any! 

I figured 12mm pine would be a better option.


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## marcros (26 Feb 2013)

early learning centre seem to use birch ply for a lot of their toys. I would have thought that pine would do nicely though- may even get floorboards that are about the right thickness, ready planed and readily available (new of course).


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## Waka (26 Feb 2013)

Lee J":w80p1wv2 said:


> I had a horrible thought yesterday. I've been planning some big chunky 3 piece jigsaw teddy bears to sell at craft fairs. these are aimed at very young kiddies. Cut a teddy bear shape out of 12mm MDF using the scroll saw, then cut it up into 3 pieces to create a jigsaw. Then paint it with child friendly paints in lovely bright colours.
> 
> Only thing is, when that kiddy puts a piece into his/her mouth they're chewing on MDF which is probably really bad for them. I'd never even considered it until yesterday! Good job I've not made any yet let alone sold any!
> 
> I figured 12mm pine would be a better option.



I've made a load of these out of pine and treated them with food safe oil.


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## tsg (26 Feb 2013)

I have been doing a lot more research on the net, but have been unable to speak to anyone at Trading Standards that can help so I have emailed them and I am awaiting their reply.
My only concern at this time is the chemical analysis part of EN71. I have asked them if I can assume that any natural pine that I buy from a reputable seller is free of any of the prohibited or restricted chemicals as pine has been tested previously and found to be safe. If I self certify based on that assumption have I shown due diligence if it transpires that chemicals were present.
I have also asked about the technical file, and that because all of my toys are basically the same, ie cut from a piece of pine, with either wheels, rotors, propellers, and a few other bits added, can I keep just one file for the lot.
I will update when I get a meaningful reply.
I think that if the answer to both questions is yes, I will be ready to go. Feeling very optimistic now, just waiting for them to say no to put me back on a low. However, if we can't assume that newly bought wood is "clean" and chemical free I don't see how anyone can make wooden toys.
Paul


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## Gary Morris (26 Feb 2013)

Is it similar to 'due dillegance' - keeping a record of critical control points? 

Gary


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## deserter (26 Feb 2013)

Not wanting to split hairs, but it may be important. 

If the timber your referring to as pine is the white wood which is readily available at most builders yards/DIY stores, then you would be very unlikely to be buying pine. At best it will be fir but more likely spruce. But in either case you will have no way to identify the species or guarantee that different purchases are the same. 


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


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## tsg (27 Feb 2013)

Doh..when I say pine, what i mean is any of the cheap s**t you get at B&Q or others. You are quite right, maybe I should have made myself a bit clearer, but I will wait to hear back from Trading Standards.
Let's face it, even spruce and fir should be free of dangerous chemicals. Who can tell the difference when it's cut, planed, and served up in plastic?
All I am concerned about is certifying that any wood (fir/pine/spruce/oak/walnut/ebony) that I use is safe for kids toys. If wood is inherently dangerous I will give up, and commit suicide by eating one of my toys!!!!!
Sorry, getting a bit frustrated by the laws of this great nation and their partners.
Paul

due dil·i·gence 
Noun
Reasonable steps taken by a person in order to satisfy a legal requirement, esp. in buying or selling something.


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## Gary Morris (27 Feb 2013)

I would say that 'all' wood has the potential to be harmful, thats why you would need due diligence. It's not only the wood, there's adhesive, nails, screws, additional add ons IE 'eyes, wheels, then theres the finish / finishes and any packaging. All of which could be harmful.

You can get COSHH data sheets for any liquids, I would imagine, which would cover you in that respect. I would have thought that any large or specalised timber outlet would be able to provide some sort of document to say that their 'pine is free from' or has a detailed data sheet.

It will be interesting to hear what the TS has to say.


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## deserter (27 Feb 2013)

There is a list of woods considered toxic on one of the websites, I can't remember which one though. I'll check my old college notes later for you and find out. 


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


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## Eric The Viking (27 Feb 2013)

I suggest several things:

Put your policy somewhere on your web site, but NOT your musings about it - very off-putting.
Get or make a (heated) brand for your maker's name and the CE mark. It's a quick way of doing it, and can be placed somewhere out of sight. Add to that a design ref. and a batch no. and/or date code. If trading standards see you're working hard to comply, you'll get a much better reception. If you can do a brand with a _short_ URL, it would also act as a free advert! Failing that, you could silk-screen, but it's messy and takes longer with things that aren't flat.
Beech is a good material, as it's got anti-bacterial properties, is easy to work, finishes nicely and is probably easier to trace.
Consider using food colourings as dyes, instead of paint. That solves your safety issues, in that regard, and there is a wide range of colours available. Also try to stick with glues such as Titebond II that are rated for food-use products (see what I did there). If possible avoid metal fastenings for loads of reasons - glued pegs/dowels, etc. should avoid problems, but watch out for designs that might cause splinters or sharp edges if trodden on.
There are nowadays legal requirements about what information must appear on a trade-purposed web site, e.g. business name and location. Even if you're not selling directly from the site, you need these things.
The "Limited" in a limited liability company means just that: the _shareholders'_ liabilities are limited. The term is intended to be a warning to those doing business with it! You don't escape personal liability if something horrible happens (heaven forfend!), but it does protect family, etc. who might fund you.

I share your frustration - When you consider the organic chemistry in cheap plastics, and the granules that were swept off the floor of the factory and returned to the hoppers, and the mould release agents, and the fillers, and the colourants, and the chemicals in the cardboard packaging and printing inks, (and so on, and so on), it's obvious that the regulations are just what you'd expect -- designed to favour the big players (as someone else said above). But you're stuck with them. 

If I were Trading Standards, I'd much prefer to visit a keen-to-comply small business, than be wearing an anti-stab vest raiding a pound store for knock-offs. If you have a first-go at sourcing and documentation, then ask them to vet you, you'll probably get a very positive response.

I think reclaimed materials are an absolute non-starter though. You simply can't audit the supply chain for safety. TS will pick on this immediately.

HTH, 

E.

I'm NOTa lawyer - above are my opinions only - use at your own risk.


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## JakeS (27 Feb 2013)

Eric The Viking":1ssmcw00 said:


> Failing that, you could silk-screen



Silk-screening is sometimes used for non-standard dice for board games - and they're notorious for the screened faces rubbing off and leaving you with an unmarked cube in relatively short order.

I guess it's not so critical once the toy has been sold, but if you want to be sure of your maker's name to hang around it's probably worth going for a brand or stamp or something else that actually makes a physical impression on the wood.


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## tsg (27 Feb 2013)

Eric, point taken about my 'musings', offending part now removed. Thanks for the advice re legislation about web sites, if we ever do set up a business I will be sure to comply. 
I like your idea about a branding iron but a quick search on the net has shown me that those commercially available are quite expensive. Anyone found any reasonably priced ones??
It had been my plan to attach a 'business' type card to each toy containing the CE mark, date of manufacture, name and address and any other details required as I had felt that marking the actual toy was impractical. However this would mean that I would need to certify that the cards and ink were child safe as well as any cord/sting used . It just goes on and on.
Paul


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## Gary Morris (28 Feb 2013)

Could you not get a cheap soldering iron and craft a copper CE to fit into it, or a cheap pyrography kit and burn it in freehand? (some kits have small irons in different shapes that fit the pen thing)
Does it have to be permanently affixed, or could you print and stick one on?

If you have a suppliers catalouge or printed statement that states that all stocks of Beech planks are free from any added treatment - regarding certifying things, surly this would be sufficient proof. (just an example) If the tin of paint states it's safe for kids - surly the tin is your certifying object. All you would need to do is log certain details per job.

Gary


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## JakeS (28 Feb 2013)

Gary Morris":2c1rtqlx said:


> Does it have to be permanently affixed, or could you print and stick one on?



Certainly one sees a lot of CE stickers on products at the cheaper end of the scale.

That said, I've seen at least one (American) source claiming that all you need to do to comply with European law is stick a CE sticker on your product, so whether they're all necessarily 'proper' is another matter.

The advantage to having a permanent mark is that you can leave a company name or URL on there, so if parents have friends around and get asked "hey, that's a nice wooden toy you have there, where can we get one?" they can easily find the information!


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## beech1948 (28 Feb 2013)

tsg":3kn0wdt9 said:


> My only concern at this time is the chemical analysis part of EN71. I have asked them if I can assume that any natural pine that I buy from a reputable seller is free of any of the prohibited or restricted chemicals as pine has been tested previously and found to be safe. If I self certify based on that assumption have I shown due diligence if it transpires that chemicals were present.
> 
> Paul



This is quite an interesting question. The legislation both the BS EN71 and EU primary legislation specifies the number of different chemicals ( about 7) and the amounts which can be tolerated being present.

Therefore the question is " Is it possible to quickly and cheaply test for these chemicals". looking at the list of chemicalsd involved it would seem that some 6th form chemistry could easily test for the presence of the chemicals leaving you with a use or not use decision.

Al


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## tsg (28 Feb 2013)

I have now received a reply from trading standards. I have copied it below as it is only short and it contains links to some useful documents including details of the necessary info needed for the technical file. I thought it would be useful to have the links on here permenantly.

"Dear Mr Fox
I have been passed your email re Toy Making (below) for response.
It appears from your email that you have already done considerable research yourself, so I will concentrate on your specific queries.
In respect of the 'natural pine wood from B&Q', it may be more appropriate to seek a written assurance from B&Q that the wood they sell should not contain any of the chemicals restricted by the Toys Safety Directive. Whether you decide to carry out any safety testing should be based upon the risk presented. For example, if you decide to use 'reclaimed' wood rather than 'virgin / untreated' wood there would be a greater risk of chemical contamination. Any assurance you obtained or testing you carried out would need to be renewed / repeated if you changed your source of wood.

With regard to your technical files, generic files are permitted as long as the differences between toys and the documents unique to individual toys are held. You can find further guidance on the technical documentation requirements here:

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/ ... 1-2_en.pdf

I appreciate that you have done some research yourself, but for completeness sake, I would refer you to the following documents:

Toys Safety Directive background information
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/ ... dex_en.htm

The Toys (Safety) Regulations 2011
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011 ... tents/made

Requirements for Internal Production Control (self verification) - see Module A of Annex II
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 128:enDF

Finally I would be grateful if you could confirm your postal address so that I can properly record the advice that I have given you. 

If you have any queries please let me know.

Regards

Karen
__________________________________

Karen Springford
Principal Trading Standards Officer
Kent County Council"

So, as long as I can get written confirmation from a supplier of softwood that their wood does not contain any of the restricted or prohibited chemicals I should be good to go. Just a matter of finding someone to insure me in this venture


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## Gary Morris (1 Mar 2013)

I would say you would need documentation of any and all materials used. I would also save receipts to show that you have bought the stuff from them.

Gary


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## Eric The Viking (1 Mar 2013)

They sound quite approachable. As discussed, watch out for swallowable parts, etc., and ensure you have an audit trail. If you can't do a brand, you might use number punches (as used in metalwork) to stamp a date/design code somewhere out of the way.

I'm sure if you offered TS coffee and cake, they might be lured out to come and vet them for things you've missed. As they know you're trying to do it right, you'll be a breath of fresh air, compared to the usual riff-raff they deal with. 

I'd also do a bit of Googling to see if there's a trade association, too, and ask your local Chamber of Commerce, and/or the FSB if they know of one (FSB membership costs around £100/year, and includes good legal cover, incidentally). I bet someone somewhere has done an 'silly person's guide' to the regs.

I still have the toy train my grandpa made for me in 1961. If he were alive now and tried to make another, he'd be probably be prosecuted! The trouble is that it's not people like him (or you) it's aimed at. It's just you'd be the easiest to catch.

Ho Hum.
E.


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## Nick Gibbs (6 Mar 2013)

I've been making simple toys to sell at fairs, and I'm afraid it never crossed my mind to get a CE mark for them! I have no intention of doing so. However I do try to make them fundamentally safe, though one visitor cut herself on one of them at a show! I have public liability insurance for attending shows and for the folk I employ, but otherwise hope for the best, which isn't probably clever, but I don't have the time nor inclination to get a CE mark. I would give it a go, and then decide if you need more robust 'insurance' as you get larger.

Nick


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## Eric The Viking (6 Mar 2013)

I don't want to be a bore, Nick (and I most certainly don't approve of the system), but there is a legal requirement to conform to the safety standards for toys. 

If you sell any product in the EU as a commercial activity, by law it must carry a CE mark. You'll be absolutely fine until trading standards come across them, at which point confiscation is the best outcome you can hope for! They're not (all) jobsworths, but they need good press coverage, and nobody will look beyond "illegal toys seized at fair". You'd be unlikely to get the chance to put an opposing point of view, and in any case you probably would want to keep quiet with a prosecution pending.

On the positive side (if there is one), CE is self-certification. It's a sign of a 'declaration' by you that the items conform to the relevant directives, so if you keep the requisite documentation about materials (an audit trail/chain of custody), you probably can just mark things. 

It gives me no pleasure to write this. I stood as a parliamentary candidate for UKIP on more than one occasion  I know of a greengrocer in the North East, Steve Thoburn, who was driven to an early grave by trying to fight for the right to sell food in imperial weights. he was prosecuted relentlessly by trading standards and his business destroyed (his scales, incidentally were properly certified as accurate, but that didn't help). 

E.


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## Nick Gibbs (6 Mar 2013)

I know, Eric. I'm sure you're right. I don't mean to sound too gung-ho and disrespectful of the laugh. Self certification sounds like a good idea. It is only a matter of time before I get stung by hurting the wrong child. I'll have a look at it.

Nick


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## tsg (6 Mar 2013)

I'm still trying to find a wood supplier that is willing to state that their softwood is probably free of all the restricted chemicals. Once I do this I think I will be almost ready to self certify. If you know of anywhere please let me know.
Nick, where did you get your public liability insurance from and roughly how much?
Paul


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## Nick Gibbs (6 Mar 2013)

I think it costs about £300. I'll check tomorrow where we get it.


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## beech1948 (7 Mar 2013)

I wonder if the wood issue can be solved by giving the supplier a formal order which requires wood to be 

" virgin wood which is untreated with any chemicals"

I am guessing that getting a supplier to issue you with a certificate re BS EN 71 is probably a non-starter for them. The wording above on your order they would understand in their own terms. 

This might exonerate you from any future problems.

I also guess that the bigger factories simply don't ask or don't make a fuss about it.

Al


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## tsg (11 Mar 2013)

No luck so far with any wood supplier, so a begging letter to trading standards seems in order......................

"Hi Karen,

sorry for the delay in replying, and thank you for getting back to me. I have emailed a number of companies including one of the largest pine importers in the country that supplies nearly all the well known outlets, but so far I have had no positive results. However now that you have given me this advice, I feel that I must follow it to stay on the right side of Trading Standards.

Do you know of any other wooden toy makers in the area that could point me in the direction of a suitable supplier, or do they just chance it? I am sure that new wood should comply, but how am I supposed to prove it? Have you or your colleagues seen any certification re the wood in any of the technical files you have viewed? 

There are a number of companies / people in the UK that make and sell wooden toys, is there any way you could advise me how they achieve the CE mark, so that I can try and do the same. 

The cost of having a wood sample tested for all of the chemicals on the list would prohibit anyone other than a very large mass producer, from entering this industry.

Many thanks in advance,

Paul
(A somewhat frustrated Toy maker in waiting)"

......................I will post the reply on here as and when I receive it. 

If I ever get anything positive, by sharing on here should enable any one else interested in toy making to use my route without having to do the leg work.

Paul


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## Eric The Viking (11 Mar 2013)

Paul, 

With respect, I think you are forgetting rule #1 in these circumstances:

"Don't take on responsibilities that belong to others."

You're a wooden toymaker. It's not reasonable to expect you to chemically test new wood for pollutants. Nor are you responsible for the environment the trees grow in and the chemicals they thus absorb, _unless_ you indicate that you want to be! 

For example, it's a safe bet that any recently-felled timber from north eastern Europe (Scandinavia) has traces of radiation from Chernobyl, and dioxins and heavy metals from industry and vehicle pollution. It's probably now even got isotopes that came from Fukushima, and older stands of timber will probably have detectable 'records' of Hiroshima and Nagasaki! 

That's not stopping other people from using it, but if you have a report saying that (or you encourage someone else to create one!) you may then have a large and immediate problem, one that didn't previously exist.

On the other hand, if you have a chain of custody established, and someone else tells you, on the record, that it's virgin timber, AND THEN it proves to be contaminated somehow, that's not your fault. Any legal action arising would founder on the fact you've done DUE diligence (emphasis on 'due').

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd guess that's something like what one might tell you.


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## RogerBoyle (11 Mar 2013)

Eric The Viking":1mfwkf7f said:


> Paul,
> 
> With respect, I think you are forgetting rule #1 in these circumstances:
> 
> ...



Well Said =D> =D>


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## tsg (13 Mar 2013)

I have now received a reply from Trading Standards. It is a very long and informative note but there are two parts of the regulations that were highlighted for me

".............If you look at section 10 Safety Assessment (page 39, 75) it says (amongst other things):

[...] manufacturers may perform an assessment of the likelihood of the presence in the toy of in particular prohibited or restricted substances. The scope of possible testing can be based on the assessment. Testing only needs to be considered for those substances that can reasonably be expected to appear in the toy in question.

[...] Although a toy material might contain a hazardous substance, the substance might not be capable of becoming bioavailable (i.e. there is no exposure and the substance cannot be absorbed in to the body of the child). In toxicological terms, if there is no exposure there can be no risk.

Your safety assessment for new untreated wood may lead you to believe that testing for chemical contamination is not necessary. However any such decision must be based upon sound reasoning........"

If anyone wants to see the email in full, let me know your email address and I will forward it.

From the above and the context in which it was said, I believe that I can now proceed using assumptions so long as they are thought out and fully explained in writing in the technical file. I am now in the process of compiling the necessary files and certificates and look forward to offering my toys for sale in the not to distant future.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread so far. I will update when I am ready to start selling unless I encounter any more problems along the way.

Paul


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## Gary Morris (13 Mar 2013)

Perhaps it would be easier to go to a timber supplier, choose some pieces of wood that you need and simply say to them - i'm making a 'wooden' 'tractor' for my 3yr old grandson, is this wood safe to use for him? Possibly take a friend / relative to act as a witness. I would have thought that the answer would have to be a yes or no. The mechant themselves are subject to due diligance and would know.
At what age of child does the ce mark become void? Would a child towards the end of this scale be able to buy a piece of wood from them? If yes then by definition the wood would be safe, or safe to assume it is.

Gary


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## tsg (13 Mar 2013)

Gary, I like the idea of asking at the point of sale, especially if I can get their name and add it to the receipt. I can then update the technical file with where the wood was purchased and the fact that the seller informed me it was safe. 

The rules on toys relate to children up to 14 years old. However, a lump of wood is not a toy until such time as it has been made to look like one and so the rules do not apply until that stage. Selling a child a contaminated piece of wood would not fall under these rules although there are probably others that cover it.


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## Nick Gibbs (13 Mar 2013)

Please email me the letter ([email protected]). We did a lot of research into toys when I was at Good Wood. It would be interesting to see if things have changed. Thanks.


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## Smithy (14 Mar 2013)

Hi Paul

Many thanks for starting this topic. I have learned a lot from it and it is very much appreciated. I will now start my toy making enterprise knowing that I will be doing things correctly. Please could I have a copy of the TS email. I have sent you a PM with my email address.

Thanks again 

Mike


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## tsg (22 Mar 2013)

We have received a reply today from a wood supplier in Sevenoaks stating that the soft wood they supply is definitely chemical free. I really didn't think that any one would have the bottle to put that in writing but hats off to Gaza Timber (www.gazatimber.co.uk) for sticking their neck out. They will now be getting all my trade if possible regardless if I can save a few quid shopping elsewhere. As long as they provide a reliable service at a reasonable price.
Unfortunately we are now in the process of re modelling our kitchen so the wood work will have to be put on hold for a couple of months.

Anyway it is great to see that there are people out there who are willing to stand by their product, and for anyone else in the South East, here is a possible supplier. I have not tried them yet so I can not comment on their service but I will update this thread as and when I do.

Not sure if they will deliver to France though Mike!


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## Smithy (29 Mar 2013)

Hi Paul
That is good news for you, another box ticked. I get family friends to bring me woodworking equipment I need from the UK but I think I would be pushing my luck to ask for a car load of timber. I have found a really great family run timber yard that sells beech which I will use for my toys and chestnut which I use for my birdboxes and feeders. 

Have you by chance read this months British Woodworking. Nick Gibbs wrote an excellent article about this topic. Thanks Nick.

Mike


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## Nick Gibbs (29 Mar 2013)

nagden":1ibctfdv said:


> Have you by chance read this months British Woodworking. Nick Gibbs wrote an excellent article about this topic. Thanks Nick. Mike



Thanks, Mike. Referencing another recent thread, I hope this demonstrates where magazines and forums can work together. I'd like to do more research on the topic.

Nick


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## George1983 (9 Apr 2013)

Hey guys,
I`m interested in making wooden toys as well and i have lots of ideas going through my head every time i think about it...
I`ve read the topic but probably i`m not so smart when it comes to understanding how this legal stuff works...
So first of all i need a certificate from the timber merchant to confirm that the wood is chemicals free,then i have to use only approved paint and that`s all i have to do to be in the limits of the law?Nobody checks,nobody asks anything,no other proof joining the toy to proof that is CE approved?


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## Gary Morris (10 Apr 2013)

My interpretation. For instance if I was selling, part painted wooden toy cars that I had produced, say at a fair, I would have to reasonably satisfied that all the wood, fixings, finishes, construction and packaging were safe for children. 
I would have achieved this by getting written or visible proof by. 
Timber - It could be a timber yards leaflets or brochure or a written guarantee. As well as receipts to show that I had bought it. 
Finishes & Glues - The same as timber plus COSHH sheets, paint tins with contents on etc.
Packaging - Possibly buy food safe items.
I would make a worksheet for each type of toy and list the date made and materials used.
I would have made sure that the toy was 'safe' in the 'design stage' and after completion and possibly a drawing on it's construction. Make sure my CE id is either stuck to it, burnt into it pressed into it or affixed securely. I would keep all of the paperwork in a folder and take it with me. As I see it someone will approach you when your in mid flow of whatever method you use to tell your customers about your hand made toy and produce his or her ID. It would then be a case of showing your due diligence.
This is what I would do, I guess there are many ways of going about it and many more on the depths people would want to go into it.

Gary


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## dg2000r (22 Apr 2013)

This is a great thread - I've been looking all over the place for other people's experiences with this sort of thing.
I guess there must be thousands of people out there in my situation: I make toys in my spare time (I have a proper/boring non-wood related job during the week) and I'd like to try selling the occasional piece at local craft fairs, mainly just to test the water a bit to see if there's enough demand to ever support making some real money from it. ...BUT in order to do this it seems I need to jump through 3 sets of hoops (and counting):

1. As it is technically 'trading' I'll need to be registered as a company and fill in a tax return - even though it's not my primary occupation, and even though the figures will be negligible. ie. this year I'd probably post a loss of a hundred quid or so after buying some materials and tools, and having sold a couple of toys at a local fair. Hardly seems worth bothering HMRC with, but it seems to be another one of those legal requirements.
2. I'll need liability insurance to sell at the fair. Someone on this thread guessed that as being £300. OK, so I'm now looking at a loss of £400.
3. I need to self certify my toys in order to put a CE mark on them, which sounds like a real pain in the backside, but that also seems like another thing that isn't worth risking.

So all in all it seems like it's just not worth doing. I guess I'll just go back to making things to give away to friends - are we still allowed to do that without certificates? :roll:


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## marcros (22 Apr 2013)

dg2000r":31uym7h1 said:


> This is a great thread - I've been looking all over the place for other people's experiences with this sort of thing.
> I guess there must be thousands of people out there in my situation: I make toys in my spare time (I have a proper/boring non-wood related job during the week) and I'd like to try selling the occasional piece at local craft fairs, mainly just to test the water a bit to see if there's enough demand to ever support making some real money from it. ...BUT in order to do this it seems I need to jump through 3 sets of hoops (and counting):
> 
> 1. As it is technically 'trading' I'll need to be registered as a company and fill in a tax return - even though it's not my primary occupation, and even though the figures will be negligible. ie. this year I'd probably post a loss of a hundred quid or so after buying some materials and tools, and having sold a couple of toys at a local fair. Hardly seems worth bothering HMRC with, but it seems to be another one of those legal requirements.
> ...





i hear what you are saying, but to play devils advocate...

1. Yes, if you make an income you have to declare it for tax- the same as anybody else.
2. If your product, which you assure me is safe for my child hurts said child because it wasnt safe after all, then you need more protection than just saying "woops, sorry"
3. I dont think that the CE mark is that bad, providing that you take all reasonable steps- as in the thread above.

I agree that the legislation doesn't inspire you (meaning anybody) to bother making toys, at least on a micro scale. Even simple decorative items would require items 1 and 2 to be satisfied, although you may way up the risk of not insuring.

I am not sure where the hobbies selling a few things at a craft fair from time to time fits in- technically i guess everything should be declared but there may be a difference if you claim to be clearing things out of your house/garage that you nolonger want.


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## Eric The Viking (22 Apr 2013)

You don't need to be a company: you can operate as a sole trader. But you DO need to declare the activity for tax, same as everyone else.

I'm a sole trader. I don't earn much. The revenue forms aren't hard to fill in, and they expect you to make a loss in the first year. If you only declare the loss though, and not any profitable trading, and you offset that loss against tax paid on other activity (e.g. employment), they may get shirty, but generally, if it's obvious you're being straight with them, they're fine (in my experience). If they inspect, they'll look for records, but not necessarily full accounts. There are exemptions to the audit requirements for small businesses.

It's worth getting a couple of cheap paperbacks on starting up, as they often have handy checklists in them. The trick is to keep good records. If you're making things for sale, that's pretty easy - what you spent on materials, heat+light, etc. and how much you sell items for and when. Two notebooks - expenditure and sales would suffice, and you need to keep you receipts, too.

Generally you can ignore VAT registration, unless you're doing it as a full-time business, as you won't get near the threshold for compulsory registration. And VAT returns are a pain unless you have computerised accounts anyway.

As long as the Revenue know what you're doing and you're not trying to cheat, you shouldn't have a problem with them.

Cheers,

E.


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## loftyhermes (23 Apr 2013)

To add to the above, if you're going to have less than £5595 earnings in the tax year then you can apply for a National Insurance exemption certificate.


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## JustBen (24 Apr 2013)

Hi, I don't know if I'm too late to ball but here is something I saw the other day that might be an alternative to branding.
http://www.ibuildit.ca/Workshop%20Proje ... ks-13.html
He uses ink transfer and then coats it in oil/varnish etc.
Costs are minimal, quick and simple to do.

As for the original topic, there are some very interesting comments and a lot of good info.

Am keeping a beady eye on it.


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## brianhabby (24 Apr 2013)

benjimano":3pcgmdp1 said:


> Hi, I don't know if I'm too late to ball but here is something I saw the other day that might be an alternative to branding.
> http://www.ibuildit.ca/Workshop%20Proje ... ks-13.html
> He uses ink transfer and then coats it in oil/varnish etc.
> Costs are minimal, quick and simple to do.


That's an old trick using the solvent. I believe you can also do it dry by ironing it on. 

regards 

Brian


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## Jelly (24 Apr 2013)

dg2000r":1nufch6c said:


> This is a great thread - I've been looking all over the place for other people's experiences with this sort of thing.
> I guess there must be thousands of people out there in my situation: I make toys in my spare time (I have a proper/boring non-wood related job during the week) and I'd like to try selling the occasional piece at local craft fairs, mainly just to test the water a bit to see if there's enough demand to ever support making some real money from it. ...BUT in order to do this it seems I need to jump through 3 sets of hoops (and counting):
> 
> 1. As it is technically 'trading' I'll need to be registered as a company and fill in a tax return - even though it's not my primary occupation, and even though the figures will be negligible. ie. this year I'd probably post a loss of a hundred quid or so after buying some materials and tools, and having sold a couple of toys at a local fair. Hardly seems worth bothering HMRC with, but it seems to be another one of those legal requirements.
> ...



Don't forget your due diligence requirements under the new EU timber regs... you'll basically have to keep a record of your materials purchases, and take reasonable steps to check that your supplier isn't lying to you and selling illegal timber (if you're purchasing from an established merchant this won't be an issue in practice).


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## trsleigh (25 Apr 2013)

brianhabby":3qjg6lkk said:


> benjimano":3qjg6lkk said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, I don't know if I'm too late to ball but here is something I saw the other day that might be an alternative to branding.
> ...



Old to you maybe, but potentially very useful for me, so thanks benjimano.  
I have tried the dry ironing method with some success but I suspect that the results are very dependent on the individual laser printer and how well it fuses the image.


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## pip1954 (28 Jun 2013)

hi i used to work in a timber factory making toys and childrens climbing frames, and play items, i know they would spend a lot of time making sure toys conformed to the regs there are a lot of rules and they used to test every part of that toy any ink was tested for chemicals and had certificates and paint was tested by the manufacturer and certified . when i started working there there was a large batch(300plus) boards that where tested and failed because of lead content none where sold and the company footed the bill.( even tough the manufacturer certified them)
there are also regs on holes not sure how small these go down to but i remember head holes where very hot on getting them right they may also cover finger traps it really is a bit of a mine field ,they employed about 35 people and had two/three people checking and testing and working in development full time .
we used a lot of mdf in the manufacturing process and tulip wood ,beech.
but because it was a large company the ts would work with them to get items sorted and certified .
but good luck with your venture 
pip


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## tsg (26 Oct 2013)

Well as far as I'm concerned my toys now carry the CE mark. I think that all the T's have been crossed and all the I's dotted. I have just got to make some toys now. An updated website is being created as we speak to showcase what we make, both toys and other gifts.
Thanks for all the advice and help I have received from this site, I hope to keep you updated with what happens next.
Paul


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## tsg (18 Apr 2014)

Well, as I have been asked by PM how it was going, I thought I would share it and can only say ..badly. I haven't been in a position yet to try and get this off the ground, various family problems and a job have got in the way. 

Total sales so far is ' 0 '  

I need to find a marketing strategy (apparently) and this kind of thing is not my strong point. We are hoping to start doing some craft fares soon but the ones we have visited recently have been very poor and I really don't think are worth the money.

This will work, there is no place for failure within this organisation.....

Any marketing pro's out there.......please help!

Paul


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## Mr_P (18 Apr 2014)

Maybe time to embrace the dark side ?

Ebay / Amazon might be the work of the devil but they have the traffic.


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## beech1948 (18 Apr 2014)

Only a matter of a (short) time before someone mentions Ebay/Amazon.

Both have massive traffic, both have harsh rules re selling, both are expensive, both reward dishonest behaviour from customers by penalising the seller, both encourage a lazy, depend on someone else sort of marketing. Both have become pile it high and never mind the quality/price. 

I'm not knocking Ebay/Amazon but people need to be realistic about what they provide. Too often the inexperienced just plunge in and get burnt. The major electronic shops are very cynical and hardened about Ebay/Amazon.

There are alternatives.

1) have your own web site + prices+purchase from site....promote the hell out of it, mention it everywhere on paper, emails, web sites, forums, blogs etc etc

2) Consider who your market is. Draw up a single page description of them all...1) family, friends, community(ies) 2) other parents with young children (local or remote) 3) gift givers 4) birthday givers, 5) Easter givers 6) Xmas givers 7) Grandparents 8) Celebrating a new child being born 9) Club members 10) Womens clubs/groups 11) Car boot markets 12) Church fairs 13) Craft fairs 14) Toy fairs.......make you own list

Then ask the question.....where will they go to buy toys....when will they buy....

Alternative auctions Gumtree (ebay owned), ??

Facebook to promote
Twitter to promote
Flavour of the month web sensation

Local papers......Give a few away to worthy cause and get reported, run a community competition for toys, have a buy 7 get one free offer, sell some and give to support a local event/scheme and get reported.

The beauty of all these is that many can be local and community based ( I take a broad view of what is community(ies) AND all feed off each other. So the facebook becomes a web page, the blog becomes a facebook entry etc etc etc.

Check out craft fairs, get opinions on them as some are rubbish, some are great. Timing is everything Xmas, Easter, Birthdays, bank holidays, etc etc etc you might take 12-18 months to settle on a round of craft fairs and some are expensive ie £25+ per place...what!.

I assume you are not seeking to make a fortune but to make a few 000's maybe.

The object of marketing is not to obtain sales ( but sales do happen) but to find and attract customers who may become buyers. So they have to be right for the product, ready for the product and want the product.

Please forgive the simplistic approach but you do not need a strategy you need a suite of tactical actions to execute and try out.......once you have an idea who your target customers are.

I once saw a stall set up on the inside of a low garden wall overlooking and reachable from the pavement. It was loaded with perfumes etc. It was also on the opposite of the road from a Morrisons supermarket. Recognition 70%, actual customers 20%.....now how many people go to Morrisons on a Saturday? and will hop over the road to have a look and buy...? Thats about being opportunistic....a good habit.

regards
Alan


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## Rickenbacker (15 Mar 2016)

Hi
just like to say Hi all, but in particular to "Nagden". Strangely enough I live in Normandie too and am very interested in setting up a toy making enterprise. I realise this thread is 3 yrs old now but if Nagden happens to see this post I would very much like to touch base to see how things turned out.
As a newbie I am not allowed to send PM's yet by the way. Thanks in advance.

Trevor


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## Jacob (15 Mar 2016)

Oddly enough I made a reasonable living making and selling toys. It's a few years ago now (stopped in 1980 thank you mrs thatcher) but I don't suppose things have changed that much.
What made it work was doing it in multiples. 100s at a time, never quite 1000s. You really need to do long runs to get things sorted out in terms of design and production. 
I think this applies to most makers of anything.
So if your design is any good and you want to sell them, START by making 10 of them, don't just stick at one. The 10th will be better than the first. By the time you have made 100 they will be really sorted out.

PS and if you have 10 of them you have your first stock and can deliver promptly. Ideally you should always have stock in hand and not be making to order. It's the other side of "cash flow" - hitting the ground running.

PPS What has changed of course is that selling has never been easier. Ebay, Amazon, Etsy, your own web site, for starters with very little investment, low mark up etc. But you have to investigate every opportunity - including the worst option of all; selling to a retailer. You never know!


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## Rickenbacker (15 Mar 2016)

Hi Mike, thanks for the PM. I am still not able to send PM's. I see from one of your other posts you are in Bocquence..... what a coincidence, I am in Gauville the other side of La Ferte Frenel.


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## Smithy (16 Mar 2016)

Hi Trevor. Yes that is me. I am busy this week but I go to the bar in La Ferté Frenel on a Sunday morning for a coffee. If you fancy a chat I will be at the PMU bar at 8.

Very good post Jacob. Batch production and keeping production cost to the minimum is the key. 

Mike


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## Jacob (16 Mar 2016)

nagden":2t9y668c said:


> .. Batch production and keeping production cost to the minimum is the key.
> 
> Mike


Costs yes, but the main benefits are in having stock and in developing the product. It's much easier and more efficient to be making for stock rather than matching orders and it brings in the money sooner rather than later (cash flow).


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## Inoffthered (16 Mar 2016)

Jacob":1e19i6oo said:


> nagden":1e19i6oo said:
> 
> 
> > .. Batch production and keeping production cost to the minimum is the key.
> ...





Making for stock actually accelerates your cash outflow because you have to buy the raw materials to make your batch of 100 items and you don't get money in until you start selling them.Of course, if your material costs are not significant and the opportunity cost of your labour in making the items is not excessive then this may be a worth doing. 

The argument for making a large batch because the last item you make will be better than the first actually means that if your quality is not right when you start, perhaps you should not be selling the first items you produce. 

As for marketing, if you want to make a decent margin on your stuff then you should stress the hand made/ locally made/ locally sourced materials / personalised nature of what you sell and not try to compete with Chinese tat on eBay. There is always a temptation to undervalue what you do and sell at a discount to get some sales in. That road leads to ruin because whatever you may think when the market is used to seeing items sold a low price it is extremely difficult to ramp those prices up. Market your stuff as being different, don't be defensive about higher prices and be confident in what you are doing.


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## Jacob (16 Mar 2016)

Inoffthered":3dbwzboq said:


> ..
> Making for stock actually accelerates your cash outflow because you have to buy the raw materials to make your batch of 100 items and you don't get money in until you start selling them.


But it accelerates your cash in-flow too, which, if you are making a profit at all, should be much more than you are spending. And it's good practice to be able to produce the stuff pronto when you get an order, as well as the other advantages.
Toy selling can be very seasonal. It's important to keep banging them out when things seem slack


> The argument for making a large batch because the last item you make will be better than the first actually means that if your quality is not right when you start, perhaps you should not be selling the first items you produce.


It's not "an argument" it's a simple fact of making - for just about any product. Yes maybe early examples should be given away or dumped. If you keep doing it and the price is high enough they will improve.


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## AES (16 Mar 2016)

Interesting discussion this, thanks all. I too have interest in making toys, but NOT to sell for profit. Whatever the "rights & wrongs" of Jacob's point about batch production, his basic point makes sense to me and that is one reason why I don't particularly want to make for sale - the thought of making a batch of 10 off (never mind 100 off) turns me right off personally - I'm making just for fun and doing more than one or two of the same would (to me) be worse than working in a factory!

But that's just me.

For those who don't know about it, there's a US Forum that specialises in toy making, and as well as hints and tips of all sorts (tools, finishing, materials, etc, etc) they also sell good down-loadable plans of all sorts at reasonable prices (.pdf format).

There are several members on there who also sell their toys in various ways, with a couple of interesting videos containing hints and tips on marketing, fairs, etc. While they are (of course) oriented to US markets and methods, with a bit of "filtering" they may well be of interest to "professional" toy makers here. BTW, the general consensus there agrees with Jacob's point about batch production.

So FWIW, here's a link:

http://www.toymakingplans.com/index.php

HTH anyone who's not heard of this site before. As per here, it's free to join their Forum.

AES


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## Jacob (16 Mar 2016)

Also see BTG: http://www.toymakersguild.co.uk/


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## AES (16 Mar 2016)

I didn't know about that one, thanks Jacob, bookmarked.

(I can't see me ever being good enough to join a proper Guild of any sort, but interesting nonetheless).

AES


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## bennymk (29 Dec 2017)

Great thread guys.


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2017)

Talking of batches - ring turning is very traditional, farm animals being the number one. 
These here are a bit posh but they are much more common than you'd think.







https://www.pinterest.co.uk/mytradition ... login=true


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## bourbon (30 Dec 2017)

Interesting concept. I'll show a mate of mine


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## beech1948 (30 Dec 2017)

Soooo? Is anyone making toys in some volume, with a CE mark. Please tell us and how you have got on with the issues such as record keeping, Certificates of origin and compliance with BS EN 61 etc.


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## treeturner123 (30 Dec 2017)

Check out Cristian Werner's You Tube video making a horse. Yes, I know it's in German, but the humour coulkd almost be British. Worth 4 mins of my time

Phil


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## CHJ (30 Dec 2017)

Re Jacobs linked image:-





Even the artisan turner is pushed to match the output of the shop next door turning them out in spiral form from complete logs.




And Yes there are still many traditional workshops with lathes as basic as the ones in the image still trying to compete with the smaller batch work. (Seiffen Germany)


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## AES (31 Dec 2017)

Just a coincidence in the light of this current (re-awakened) thread - yesterday's edition of our regional newspaper published the article shown below. A summary of some interesting points mentioned in the article:

1. This bloke lives just down the road from me, is a retired electronics engineer, is 72, and started up 5 years ago. He says he's NOT trying to make a "proper, paying business" out of his work.

2. He works out of a 5 M x 5 M double garage shop, as shown. Not shown is a separate storage room (size not quoted), said to be "piled high" with cartons of "finished" (my?) toys ready for sale.

3. He started out with an own-design money box/coins "rollway" 40 cm high, similar to the 2 shown in photo 5 below. This he made for a grandchild, "and other orders soon followed". He says all of these 20 or so different designs are individual in either form and/or colour, and he will NOT do series/batch production. (Makes you ask that if all his work is made in 1 offs, what's inside all the cartons stacked up in the store room - half-finished toys he's made on spec?).

4. The average sales price of such toys is CHF 185 he says (about 150 quid at present exchange rate). Just for some info/perspective, typical labour rates here for unskilled workers such as a cleaner or jobbing gardener are CHF 50 to 70/hour, and our local garage (main dealer) charges CHF 120/hour for servicing our Peugeot.

5. The tipper truck in photo 3 is clearly a scale model more than "just" a toy (even I recognise this - very popular here - 1950s/'60s vintage truck). He made it to special order from a local transport company who used to run these Saurer trucks - presumably as some sort of gift for someone important. How he found this customer is not said, nor the price.

6. He was asked to make the fire engine shown in photo 4 for the retiring chief of the local village volunteer fire brigade. It's not said how much he charged, but he visited the fire station to photograph the engine, it consists of 780 parts and took about 200 hours to make that 1 M long model.

7. He says that he personally, and most of his adult customers prefer "real wood, wax, etc, finishes", but children prefer bright primary colours. He says he has no problems selling against the brightly coloured plastic and wooden toys available in places like Aldi and Lidl (my note, around Christmas time those places, and other supermarkets here, sell wooden toys for typically between CHF 20 and 40) - "but my customers appreciate the individuality, craftsmanship, and robustness of my toys" he says.

8. Nothing is said about how he finds his customers, his numerical output or financial turnover, but he says he has no web site and doesn't want one.


























In the light of the comments above, and recent posts here in this Forum (in several different sections) in similar vein, but about furniture making, scrolling, turnery, etc (look for separate posts from people like custard, Claymore, CHJ, and others), the single most important point that I take from all this is that for me, I'm glad I don't want to even try to make a living from such work

Thank goodness that for me, making a "real living" is not necessary, and if it was I would definitely NOT be trying any such work to pay the mortgage and feed the kids.

For me, if I want to sell the odd piece occasionally, that's a good way of making me just "feel good", and/or possibly contributing towards a new tool, or buying some nice wood. But for a living - I wouldn't even try.

That's my take on all this, FWIW.

AES


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2017)

Not sure what point you are making - your chap is not trying to make living from it is he - it's just his hobby with a bit of pocket money coming in.
If he wanted to make a living from it he'd have to do it differently - but he'd certainly hit the ground running - he's obviously got every advantage!
I suspect a lot of craft businesses start in a similar way, as a hobby, which gradually turns profitable.


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## AES (31 Dec 2017)

Well first off, the point I'm making is that making stuff out of wood (almost anything it seems) will NOT (apparently) make a real living for anyone but just a lucky few.

2nd, if you look back to the beginning of this thread (all 6 pages), it's not clear to what extent the OP will/will not be trying to make a living from toy making. Certainly, when one considers that he's looking at stuff such as CE marking, he's definitely looking at it "professionally".

3rd, several responses since that OP suggest that a living is being considered, at least by some - and you yourself when talking of your own experiences, give the impression of having done just that too.

4th, other posts in this Forum, which I've also indirectly mentioned above, certainly do ask "how do I make a living from making XXX, YYY, ZZZ?" - or more often, "what item/s should I be making to make a living?"

So my post was simply to highlight a local newspaper article from a different place which indirectly supports the view of "highly unlikely to make a real living". This theme is not only in this (currently re-awakened thread), but also in other posts in very similar vein - a subject which seems to come up quite often here.

AES


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2017)

OK. 
There are quite a few making a living from craft work / cottage industries, starting on the kitchen table, progressing to the shed, onwards and upwards!
It's perfectly possible, a well established model and the origin of many larger businesses. They all started somewhere.
What they all have in common is that they had a crack at it, luck not necessarily having anything to do with it, and against all the pessimistic advice!
Or rather, much as the golfer is supposed to have said; the more you practice the luckier you get!
If in doubt; just f.....g do it! :lol:

nb the paper work will turn out to be not that difficult. e.g. BS compliance just means knowing the relevant standard and complying with it. As a rule people are helpful and there are trade associations etc. Nobody should be put off!
We also had to deal with purchase tax when we started up. We were in Nottingham working from the living room in a flat. The tax man came once a month to see us, after having been to Raleigh and then John Players, both just up the road. He though it was funny sitting with us counting beads and things, after visiting two major international businesses.


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## CHJ (31 Dec 2017)

My few days in Seiffen gave a little insight into the problems the town has faced with, first unification when it moved into a competitive world, and the continuing exposure of the Asian markets.
We have some lower cost Lichterbogen purchased from the 'shed' outlets, and drooled over the exotic constructs (complete 3D working ore mines, workshops etc.) in some of the more exclusive designs but at £300-600 could not justify the purchases. We identifed figures we had seen being made in bulk in various venues that had been included in some of the constructs. Component parts for Smokers and Nutcrackers are produced in the hundreds and thousands for assembly variations and batch produced by a group of workers with specific abilities.
The cheaper end of the market sees decorations like this 'windmill' (140mm high) laser cut from 2mm ply sell for €15 marketed by German company under their logo but no "made in Germany" on the packaging.




Where it all gets bought I've no idea, I've visited many Xmas markets in Germany and UK and rarely see anything other than the odd few items moving off the stalls.
Certainly marketing has to be considered way out of your local area, that dries up very quickly as you reach saturation point, something I think most craft fair sellers find, then someone else is adding the value and making an income off your efforts.
The few times I've tried to do the figures when approached by an existing market outlet to supply even at well into 3 figure retail prices, as a one man band it all boiled down to the price of a cup of coffee an hour for my labours as a bottom line.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2017)

At the cheap end you used to be able to buy a little collection of farm animals obviously ring turned (from above they tend to be wedge shaped like cake slices) and crudely finished with enamel paints. Made in Poland probably. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still around but I haven't bought anything for my farm set for a long time!


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