# New chisels very brittle edge!



## dann (1 Dec 2013)

I've just purchased a very nice looking set of chisels
But... Using them this weekend I've found them to very brittle, they cut through flesh very well(see other thread)
But they are chipping very easily and the edge is "turning over" cutting through red wood, cutting through a knot took out more steel than blade.... Any ideas why?


Re edited due to friends playing silliness with computer..


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## MIGNAL (1 Dec 2013)

Occasionally the first mm or so of steel can either be a little soft or brittle. Grind back a little and see if you reach good steel. Otherwise check your sharpening angle. Lastly: send them back.


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## wizard (1 Dec 2013)

what make are they


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## dann (1 Dec 2013)

I'll try taking a a bit more steel off and try again.
I've heard that can sometimes be the case.
Wizard, I'd rather not say what make they are until live sorted the "issue"
Let's just say they are to end chisels from a well reputed and respected maker.


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## Richard T (1 Dec 2013)

You say 'a set' Dann, have you tried them all and do they all chip? Or is it one in particular? 

If they are all prone to chip it's either a case of getting through to better steel or they are all too hard. _Or_ if one is more prone to chip than others, that one is too hard. 

Is it old fashioned tool steel or A2 or something else?


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## dann (1 Dec 2013)

They are good old sheffield 's finest 01 high carbon . 3 of them that I've used, the 2", 1" and 5/8ths have all shown signs of chipping/ damage.


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## Racers (1 Dec 2013)

What angle are you sharpening them at? Sounds like its a trifle low.

Pete


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## dann (1 Dec 2013)

I'm using the vertas mkII guide at 25 with a micro bevel, they came ground at about 25 from the factory


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## wizard (1 Dec 2013)

So are you talking about old English chisels or Chinese junk with something like a marples label stuck on it


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## dann (1 Dec 2013)

wizard":1f2rzaje said:


> So are you talking about old English chisels or Chinese junk with something like a marples label stuck on it


They are new, from a well known and respected forge here in the uk.


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## tobytools (1 Dec 2013)

Send them back if your not happy 

TT


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## wizard (1 Dec 2013)

dann":2ke32fig said:


> wizard":2ke32fig said:
> 
> 
> > So are you talking about old English chisels or Chinese junk with something like a marples label stuck on it
> ...


what makes you think that


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## MMUK (1 Dec 2013)

wizard":18s3kzwc said:


> dann":18s3kzwc said:
> 
> 
> > wizard":18s3kzwc said:
> ...




And why are you avoiding telling us the maker's name? :|


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## dann (1 Dec 2013)

wizard":3b6v03md said:


> dann":3b6v03md said:
> 
> 
> > wizard":3b6v03md said:
> ...



Because lots of research before buying said chisels says so.
I was after some advice about why it could be happening, not to slag off a company's product if all it could be is something as simple as too acute hone angle.


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## Harbo (1 Dec 2013)

If it's the same Co. I'm thinking, then give them a ring and explain the problem?
They are generally very approachable and helpful?

Rod


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## Peter Sefton (1 Dec 2013)

I would suggest if the chisels come ground at 25 degrees you should hone at 30 plus micro bevel if using the Veritas MK11. I find 25 is just too low except for paring or possibly use with softwood. Knots especially dead knots will cause problems with most steels English O1 can be too soft and American A2 too brittle. I think I know which chisels you have and they would be highly recommended on the forum and fully understand your being candid at this stage. It is possible to get chisels that just have not taken the temper and I am sure your supplier will exchange then for new ones as we would if requested, but it is best to regrind to produce fresh steel and hone at a higher angle first. I always try to avoid knots wherever possible for the reasons above.


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## dann (1 Dec 2013)

Peter Sefton":lh8kr0gc said:


> I would suggest if the chisels come ground at 25 degrees you should hone at 30 plus micro bevel if using the Veritas MK11. I find 25 is just too low except for paring or possibly use with softwood. Knots especially dead knots will cause problems with most steels English O1 can be too soft and American A2 too brittle. I think I know which chisels you have and they would be highly recommended on the forum and fully understand your being candid at this stage. It is possible to get chisels that just have not taken the temper and I am sure your supplier will exchange then for new ones as we would if requested, but it is best to regrind to produce fresh steel and hone at a higher angle first. I always try to avoid knots wherever possible for the reasons above.



Thanks for the advice Peter i will give that a try. =D>


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## Richard S (1 Dec 2013)

Ooh very mysterious!!! Don't suppose it's the Ashley Isles chisels you mention having just acquired in your earlier scary sharp post? I think a career in the secret service might not be the best choice!


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## matthewwh (1 Dec 2013)

Welcome to proper chisels!







Your reaction is exactly why most companies lowered the aiming mark for hardness when they introduced cheaper but less accurate induction hardening. Too soft and people put up with it and sharpen more frequently, too hard and they blame the tool (wierd I know) Hence you get grumbles about modern steel not being as good as the old stuff. Modern steel is miles better, it's the majority of mass production hardening that isn't.

Ashley Iles still heat treat them the old way and invariably get within a point of the absolute maximum that the steel will take - close enough that a couple of degrees in the angle of the honed bevel makes all the difference. 

A small secondary at 30 (or an initial freehand honing) and they will soon put a smile on your face.


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## bugbear (2 Dec 2013)

dann":2lzmk7lt said:


> But they are chipping very easily and the edge is "turning over" cutting through red wood,



That's very odd. Chipping is caused by overhard, brittle steel, turning over (if I'm interpreting what you mean correctly) is caused by soft steel.

Steel is clever stuff, and metallurgists equally so, but being simultaneously too hard AND too soft is a remarkable trick. :? 

BugBear


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## matthewwh (2 Dec 2013)

At the exact line between the two that is exactly how it behaves - it does both, but with a great deal of resistance so you only get to see it when the section adjacent to the edge is too thin.

The easiest way to think of it is Thorntons special toffee on a cold but not freezing day, a thin piece will bend to it's limit of elasticity and then break and the broken ends will be both bent and broken. 

Put the toffee in the freezer and it becomes like over hardened steel and will shatter cleanly with no bending. Keep it in your pocket and becomes like underhardened steel, it will bend back and forth all day long without snapping. 

At the changing point both the steel and the toffee are simultaneously hard and tough, this is the exact point of optimum hardness. In toffee terms it's the lump that is just thick enough and at exactly the right temperature to rip your fillings out.

The performance of the steel, like the performance of the toffee, is also dependent on shape and thickness. A slightly steeper honed bevel will increase the thickness immediately behind the cutting edge and change the performance of the edge considerably.


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## CStanford (2 Dec 2013)

dann":2nzkd5hj said:


> I've just purchased a very nice looking set of chisels
> But... Using them this weekend I've found them to very brittle, they cut through flesh very well(see other thread)
> But they are chipping very easily and the edge is "turning over" cutting through red wood, cutting through a knot took out more steel than blade.... Any ideas why?



Grind them back a little or send them back. 30* is too obtuse for paring by the way. You need a few dedicated parers ground and honed certainly no higher than 25* and probably less.

Not sure why your chisels are having to cope with knots in a furniture-making project (or any other for that matter) -- either use clear lumber or lay the joints out and prepare project stock to avoid knots in critical areas. Any place where a chisel is being brought to bear is, practically by definition, a critical area. Uncovering a hidden knot can happen but in the grand scheme ought to be fairly rare. If you regularly find yourself trying to work around knots when cutting joints then you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of what should be being accomplished during stock selection and layout of individual project pieces.


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## bugbear (2 Dec 2013)

CStanford":190ey6f1 said:


> Any place where a chisel is being brought to bear is a critical area.



Interesting observation!

BugBear


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## marcros (2 Dec 2013)

softwood knots can be very hard. some time ago, I was doing something that involved half lapping a couple of pieces of cls. Hitting a knot bent my framing chisel.


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## Sheffield Tony (2 Dec 2013)

CStanford":2lrpnlji said:


> Grind them back a little or send them back.



Assuming these chisels are from who we think they are, hardness testing is part of the manufacturing process, according to the brochure, and so it is unlikely that the hardening is way off. But as they are hardened traditionally, there is plenty of scope for a dodgy first millimetre or so - if held too long at red heat in the presence of oxygen decarburisation is possible, if rough ground before hardening the thin edge might cool too much between furnace and quenching, and there's always the possibility of over-enthusiastic grinding/polishing after hardening. I'd check with the manufacturer first - I'd expect they would be quick to help. Also if they are from AI, they will re-grind them for the cost of the postage in any case, however long you've had them.


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## dann (3 Dec 2013)

I spoke to the forge and they couldn't have been more helpful!!
But... After taking on board Peter Sefton's advice, and honing at 30' with a micro bevel they seem fantastic!
I've been fitting some Oak cheeks to my new vice and have been using them on that they have been holding a very keen edge and there is no damage at all to any of the edges at all. =D>


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## Peter Sefton (3 Dec 2013)

Sounds like a good result all round.
Cheers Peter


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## Vann (3 Dec 2013)

dann":2ag123sj said:


> I spoke to the forge and they couldn't have been more helpful!!


So they are Ashley Iles then?



dann":2ag123sj said:


> But... After taking on board Peter Sefton's advice, and honing at 30' with a micro bevel they seem fantastic!


If it was me, I think I'd still be disappointed if they wouldn't hold an edge below 30°. For hard work 30° is fine, but for a general bench chisel I'd prefer to go lower. And for paring I'd want to aim for 25° or lower.

Were AI able to throw any helpful light on the matter?

Cheers, Vann.


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## ss03947 (3 Dec 2013)

> I spoke to the forge and they couldn't have been more helpful!!



Ok Dan, what did the say then ?

SS


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## CStanford (3 Dec 2013)

dann":1stgij9g said:


> I spoke to the forge and they couldn't have been more helpful!!
> But... After taking on board Peter Sefton's advice, and honing at 30' with a micro bevel they seem fantastic!
> I've been fitting some Oak cheeks to my new vice and have been using them on that they have been holding a very keen edge and there is no damage at all to any of the edges at all. =D>



Dime-store beaters will hold an edge at 30*. :ho2


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## David C (4 Dec 2013)

I have yet to find chisels which hold up to normal work at 25 degrees, in hardwoods.

Why take the risk of premature failure.

The idea that one cannot pare with a sharp 30 degree chisel seems absurd to me, as I do it all the time. Quite likely 32 degrees.

I am certain that sharpness is far more important than angle.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## Billy Flitch (4 Dec 2013)

Excuse me but I think you should go back and think about what your saying there it just dose not seem to make sense.
Your last sentence in your post makes sense but the rest of it ?


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## CStanford (4 Dec 2013)

David C":29bxqrok said:


> I have yet to find chisels which hold up to normal work at 25 degrees, in hardwoods.
> 
> Why take the risk of premature failure.
> 
> ...



One can pare at 30* but the question is why would one want to? Other than possibly for rank beginners there is no reason to see sharpness and angle as some sort of dichotomy. We're talking about tissue removal, see-thru material, by hand-power only, this simply is not that taxing on an edge. Paring isn't about bulk removal - say like clearing a lap joint. That's mallet work until taking the last few passes to flatten the floor of the joint. Maybe this is more about semantics than anything else. 

Otherwise, at that angle there is certainly no reason to spend more than a few dollars per chisel since at that level of obtuseness even relatively nondescript steel holds up well. Ownership of expensive chisels, honed at over 30*, seems to be akin to having an argument with oneself. It is, for the most part, contradictory is it not? Why spend the money?


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## David C (4 Dec 2013)

Billy,

How about quality of edge?

David


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## Billy Flitch (4 Dec 2013)

David there is such a thing as a work sharp edge but with quality tools a quality edge should be a given quality.


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## Vann (4 Dec 2013)

Vann":gjov0pzs said:


> If it was me, I think I'd still be disappointed if they wouldn't hold an edge below 30°. For hard work 30° is fine, but for a general bench chisel I'd prefer to go lower. And for paring I'd want to aim for 25° or lower.





David C":gjov0pzs said:


> I have yet to find chisels which hold up to normal work at 25 degrees, in hardwoods.
> 
> Why take the risk of premature failure.
> 
> The idea that one cannot pare with a sharp 30 degree chisel seems absurd to me, as I do it all the time. Quite likely 32 degrees.


My expectations are based on something _The Schwartz _said or wrote (hopefully the notes I took at the time were copied accurately): 
chisels for chopping - 30° (with a microbevel at 32°); 
chisels for all round use - 25° (with a microbevel at 27°);
chisels for paring - 20° (with a microbevel at 22°).
I have to admit to very little experience with the low angles, and then solely in softwoods (mostly _pinas radiata_).

Yes I've had some edge failures - but then I'm working though my chisels to see which ones have better edge retention at lower angles. 

Cheers, Vann.


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## CStanford (5 Dec 2013)

Vann":2of5h60l said:


> Vann":2of5h60l said:
> 
> 
> > If it was me, I think I'd still be disappointed if they wouldn't hold an edge below 30°. For hard work 30° is fine, but for a general bench chisel I'd prefer to go lower. And for paring I'd want to aim for 25° or lower.
> ...



An Audel guide of mine (Carpenter's and Builder's Tools, Steel Square, and Joinery) asserts paring chisels are ground and honed at 15*, firmers at 20*, and framing chisels at 25*. I'm not sure when the obtuse bandwagon got cranked up but I'm thrilled to death to not be on it. And not only that, now a simple, dull chisel has suffered 'premature edge failure' (isn't there a little blue pill for that?) as if plain old getting dull is some sort of shop catastrophe. Where did all of this hyperbole come from I wonder? It certainly cannot be found in any of the old, reliable books on woodworking.

Tools get dull. Just hone them. No need to turn them into glorified shanks.

A paring chisel is used to remove tissue essentially unmeasurable in thickness. This is not hard on edges and therefore they do not need to be honed at 30*. A paring chisel is not used to remove bulk waste. Removing bulk waste is not paring. Just because a chisel is being powered by hand does not mean paring is the operation being performed. Paring is shaving hair off an eyeball.


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## Vann (5 Dec 2013)

CStanford":23oiiifw said:


> ...now a simple, dull chisel has suffered 'premature edge failure' (isn't there a little blue pill for that?) as if plain old getting dull is some sort of shop catastrophe. Where did all of this hyperbole come from I wonder? It certainly cannot be found in any of the old, reliable books on woodworking.
> 
> Tools get dull. Just hone them.


The chisel in question, a 1/2" plastic handled Stanley BE, had the edge fold over (it had been honed a touch over 25°), which is a little more serious than just getting dull (I was probably abusing it at the time - I don't remember :roll: ). I've since re-honed it a degree higher, but I don't think I've used it in anger since.

Cheers, Vann.


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## bugbear (5 Dec 2013)

CStanford":1davj7me said:


> An Audel guide of mine (Carpenter's and Builder's Tools, Steel Square, and Joinery) asserts paring chisels are ground and honed at 15*, firmers at 20*, and framing chisels at 25*.



Speaking as something of a bookworm, Audel is out on his own, and then some, with those numbers, compared to any other author.

BugBear


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## David C (5 Dec 2013)

I very much look forward to seeing such angles in use on U tube. Surely someone will oblige?

They are absurd.

David


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## CStanford (5 Dec 2013)

bugbear":3slr9oxl said:


> CStanford":3slr9oxl said:
> 
> 
> > An Audel guide of mine (Carpenter's and Builder's Tools, Steel Square, and Joinery) asserts paring chisels are ground and honed at 15*, firmers at 20*, and framing chisels at 25*.
> ...



Not really. It's more a misunderstanding of what paring actually is than anything else. I've seen other sources with similar angles. I'll dig them up for you.

It's using a dermatone to produce a skin graft for an injured super-model vs. wielding a scalpel for an emergency tracheotomy on a patient who will be dead in 45 seconds if an airway isn't cleared. Two entirely different procedures with entirely different expectations and outcomes.

Paring chisels are thin, flexible, and ground and honed at a low angle.

Audel discusses the difference in thickness of the bar stock used to make each kind of chisel - parer, firmer, and framing. And in that context the whole thing makes perfect sense. 

Try it!


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## David C (5 Dec 2013)

Good point. 

I wonder what we all mean by paring?

David


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## CStanford (5 Dec 2013)

David C":340fwar7 said:


> I very much look forward to seeing such angles in use on U tube. Surely someone will oblige?
> 
> They are absurd.
> 
> David



If you've ever grabbed a No. 1 sweep out of your carving kit to perform a ticklish paring operation on a joint then you may start to see the point I'm trying to make. You're looking for the absolute keenest edge and easiest start you can lay your hands on - maybe you need to start a paring cut right on an arris for some reason or you need to pare a grainy species like oak or ash and you're faced with punky early wood right where a show surface will be or where the joint fit lives and dies on a clean cut on grain you know wants to tear out in an ugly, stringy chunk. It's as much carving as it is anything.

I'm certainly not suggesting that one's entire chisel inventory be honed at 15*. I am suggesting that such a chisel is invaluable -- even if it needs constant touchups, like a carving chisel might when working fine detail into a difficult wood. Really, there's no difference and nothing "absurd" at all.

Audel (and current editors to the extent they have left this material unchanged since the early 1900s) are presuming that this is the definition of paring. It's not Paul Sellers chopping mortises with Blue Chips or another craftsman clearing 3/8" worth of waste material in a cross-halving joint (even if powering the chisel with hand and body). It is the last cut on the floor of a cross-halving joint on a bit of stock that is proving to be uncooperative or any number of other, similar examples.

Makes sense, no?

I do have to repeat, though, that 30*+ is the great equalizer IMO. At that angle, a pedestrian chisel will give more than adequate performance for those operations that 30* chisels are meant to perform (malleting and fairly aggressive hand-powered stock removal). That you are able to pare effectively at these high angles is a testament to you as a craftsman more than it is an endorsement of these angles for all times and in all places. I do also think that manufacturers are pretty much tickled when we buy into the 30* bit across the board - it certainly lets them off the hook in a lot of ways - viz. the OP in this thread - chisel is junk at 25* and a gem at 30*. Sounds like a $6 Blue Chip except the OP paid $75 US for the chisel. Oops.

How is your carving kit set up with respect to honing angles? I assume they vary greatly - some very, very low others not so low. Why would, or should, your bench kit be any different? I'd love to hear your comments about the honing frequency of your low-ground carving tools. Are you dissatisfied with the frequency at which touchups are needed or do you just expect and accept it? Why wouldn't that same mindset/set of expectations port to a few paring chisels you might own?


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Dec 2013)

Out of curiosity, I consulted Holtzappfel ('Turning and Mechanical Manipulation' vol.2, pub. 1847) and on page 461 found this:

"In practice, the tools differ from the constant angle of sixty degrees assumed in the diagram for the convenience of explanation, as the angle of all tools are determined by the hardness, and the peculiarity of fibre or structure, of the several substances on which they are employed. The woods and soft fibrous materials, require more acute angles than the metals and hard bodies; and the greater or less degree of violence to which the tools are subjected, greatly influences likewise the angles adopted for them.

Thus, under the guidance of a little mechanism [the mechanism is neither illustrated nor described, sadly] the thin edge of a razor, which is sharpened at an angle of about 15 degrees, is used to cut minute sections or slices of woods, in all directions of the grain, for the purpose of the microscope. But the carpenter and others require more expeditious practice, and the first change is to thicken the edges of the tools to range from about 20 to 45 degrees, to meet the rough usage to which they are then exposed, whether arising from the knots and hard places in the woods, or the violence applied."

So, it would seem that a 15 degree cutting edge has been in (specialist) use for many years, though the usual run of woodworking really needs the more conventionally recommended higher angles. Maybe a 15 degree paring chisel may be a tool worth having in some circumstances, though I suspect it would be a very delicate and easily damaged thing.


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## CStanford (5 Dec 2013)

Cheshirechappie":2zml1t71 said:


> Out of curiosity, I consulted Holtzappfel ('Turning and Mechanical Manipulation' vol.2, pub. 1847) and on page 461 found this:
> 
> "In practice, the tools differ from the constant angle of sixty degrees assumed in the diagram for the convenience of explanation, as the angle of all tools are determined by the hardness, and the peculiarity of fibre or structure, of the several substances on which they are employed. The woods and soft fibrous materials, require more acute angles than the metals and hard bodies; and the greater or less degree of violence to which the tools are subjected, greatly influences likewise the angles adopted for them.
> 
> ...



Good post. I was encouraged that he provided 20* as the low value. That's pretty acute and certainly workable for a paring chisel. And 45* would make the monster edge needed if a joint had to be chopped through a knot more like petrified wood than anything else. So, no arguments from me. Good reference.

Otherwise, yes, it's delicate for the operation it is expected to perform is delicate. One doesn't harvest skin grafts with a chainsaw or remove the tiniest of splinters with a pair of side-cutting lineman's pliers.

If used for paring, edges will rarely be 'damaged.' They will be dulled in the course of use, like any edge tool. But *dullness is not damage.* It certainly is not anything that ought to be described as 'premature edge failure' as I believed it was described in an earlier post. Why not just say, 'the chisel is dull, I think I'll hone it for I know that all tools get dull.' Maybe doesn't have as nice a ring I'll grant...

It seems to me that 'damage' and 'failure' both imply error and lack of judgment on the part of the workman. Using a low-ground chisel to pare joints to fit is anything BUT an error or lack of good judgment. Just the opposite, I'd say.


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## dann (5 Dec 2013)

Why is it that every single query regarding chisel edge ends up in squabbling well after the advice was given tried and tested.
I don't think I'll be asking anymore "edge" type questions!
Oh and I've re honed back to 25* and it seemed all the tool(s) need was a small amount of steel removed to get to virgin steel....


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Dec 2013)

dann":bu4vpk4d said:


> Why is it that every single query regarding chisel edge ends up in squabbling well after the advice was given tried and tested.
> I don't think I'll be asking anymore "edge" type questions!
> Oh and I've re honed back to 25* and it seemed all the tool(s) need was a small amount of steel removed to get to virgin steel....



In fairness, the discussion has been (for the most part) quite polite and good-natured this time, and ultimately informative. I hadn't heard of the 15 degree paring chisel before.

Besides - your new chisels are now performing to your satisfaction, so the original purpose of the thread has been fulfilled!


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## CStanford (5 Dec 2013)

dann":22u1ustj said:


> Why is it that every single query regarding chisel edge ends up in squabbling well after the advice was given tried and tested.
> I don't think I'll be asking anymore "edge" type questions!
> Oh and I've re honed back to 25* and it seemed all the tool(s) need was a small amount of steel removed to get to virgin steel....



It's the nature of craft forums to use posts to vet issues and exchange ideas beyond (sometimes well beyond) the scope of the original post. These sites would be the essence of dull otherwise, don't you think?


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## matthewwh (5 Dec 2013)

AI's leave the factory ground just under 25 degrees, so that if required they can be honed at 25 and used for fine delicate paring without the user having to regrind the bevels. If you want to chop, mallet or use them for more general work, you add a secondary bevel. 

30 degrees is a good 'goldilocks' honing angle for general purpose bench chisels. There is enough difference between it and the primary bevel angle that the secondary can be honed efficiently many times before regrinding, it is strong enough to give good edge life and with a fine polish yields an edge that will cut with minimal pressure. 

25 or maybe even 20 is plenty low enough for light paring with a high degree of control, and in this application with frequent honing these particular chisels will outperform just about anything on the market. A2 chisels are a different proposition and have to be kept at higher angles - which I believe may be the frustration you are railing against CS. If this is the case you are applying your vim to the solution (high carbon edge tool steel) rather than the problem (air hardening die steel).

edit: P.S. I am working on the assumption that the original poster was doing normal work rather than taking taking tissue thin shavings off eyeballs when they experienced edge failure.


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## Vann (5 Dec 2013)

dann":6euoua0d said:


> Why is it that every single query regarding chisel edge ends up in squabbling well after the advice was given tried and tested.


I think this turned into quite an informative discussion (even if I am the author of the "...earlier post..." critised above for describing "...premature edge failure..." and who showed "...error and lack of judgment..." - though to be fair I was attempting to assess the edgeholding capability of some chisels) 



dann":6euoua0d said:


> Oh and I've re honed back to 25* and it seemed all the tool(s) need was a small amount of steel removed to get to virgin steel....


Is this the advice you got from the manufacturer?

Cheers, Vann.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Dec 2013)

Here's a novel idea. If you've reasonable quality tools, grind them a bit steep if you're going to beat hell out of them. Grind them shallow and hone carefully for delicate jobs. No shiit sherlock.


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## CStanford (6 Dec 2013)

matthewwh":2pz5i7en said:


> AI's leave the factory ground just under 25 degrees, so that if required they can be honed at 25 and used for fine delicate paring without the user having to regrind the bevels. If you want to chop, mallet or use them for more general work, you add a secondary bevel.
> 
> 30 degrees is a good 'goldilocks' honing angle for general purpose bench chisels. There is enough difference between it and the primary bevel angle that the secondary can be honed efficiently many times before regrinding, it is strong enough to give good edge life and with a fine polish yields an edge that will cut with minimal pressure.
> 
> ...



The only issue I have with your post is the characterization that fine paring is somehow not 'normal' work. It's the essence of the craft quite frankly. It's more easily accomplished with a low-ground chisel exactly for the same reasons certain operations in carving are best accomplished with a very acutely ground chisel. There is essentially no difference. I'm frankly a little surprised that so many people appear to see such a bright line between the two. 

Whacking away at bulk material doesn't require expensive chisels. Just grind an Aldi beater at 30*+ and have at it.


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2013)

CStanford":1va14plo said:


> ...... the characterization that fine paring is somehow not 'normal' work. It's the essence of the craft quite frankly.


Is it? I confess to being not entirely sure what is meant by paring. The only time I do it is cleaning up faces of tenons etc when a fine finish isn't called for - a very sharp chisel is, but any shape of chisel will do. I assume that those long fine paring chisels are specialist tools for pattern makers (?) for fine finishing on surfaces they can't reach with a plane.
When and what do people "pare" in a specifically "paring" sort of way?


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## Harbo (6 Dec 2013)

Here's a definition pulled from the web:
"The second type of chisels that fall under the bench chisel group are the paring chisels. These are the equivalent of the smooth plane in the bench plane group. Their primary purpose is to make finer, smoother, more precise cuts than the firmer chisels. They come in handy for tasks like paring dovetail shoulders after chopping the waste with a firmer, paring tenon shoulders after sawing, light fitting tasks and other tasks requiring finesse, an extremely sharp edge, and a light touch.

There is some confusion about these chisels today that is really not helped by the tool manufacturers. Most chisel manufacturers who even carry a paring chisel in their product line, have adopted a form once used primarily by patternmakers. Pattern maker’s chisels are very long, thin chisels originally developed for the pattern making trade.

However, I don’t think joiner’s and cabinet maker’s paring chisels were any longer than their firmer chisels. In the old references that I’ve read (e.g. Nicholson, Roubo, Felebien, Moxon) the paring chisel is different from the firmer only in the thickness of the steel and the angle of the hone. In essence, the paring chisel looks just like a firmer chisel, only it’s much thinner and honed to a much shallower angle. Being thinner allows them to cut into tighter spaces (like those in the corners of dovetails) and being honed to a shallower angle makes them cut smoother and cleaner.

As with the firmers, paring chisels can be tang or socket type, straight sided or bevel edged. They are designed to be used with hand pressure only and are not designed for chopping. If you don’t have room or funds in your shop for a separate set of paring chisels, you can get almost the same benefit as a real paring chisel by chosing one of your firmers, somewhere about 1″ wide, honing it with a low bevel angle, and dedicating it to paring tasks only. I hone my paring chisels at about a 20 degree angle."

Rod


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2013)

Right. So what I do _is _ normal paring! That's a relief I thought I might be missing something. And the long ones are for pattern makers so I guessed correctly.
And those complete sets of long ones are mainly for fantasy woodworkers.


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## cagenuts (6 Dec 2013)

Jacob":244qh2e9 said:


> And those complete sets of long ones are mainly for fantasy woodworkers.



I must have died and gone to Never Never Land because that's exactly what I bought this month. :ho2


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## Billy Flitch (6 Dec 2013)

Jacob I don't know what your point is about fantasy wood workers,I do have a full set of Parring chisels and some how don't regard my self as a fantacy wood worker,maybe I`m missing out on something.
I was taught how to use them when I was an apprentice you can tell if some one is used to them just by the way they hold them and as for the length that would be so you can put weight on them with your shoulder,the only time that you put them under stress. If you where to use a bench chisel your nose would be scrapping the bench as you use the chisel.


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## CStanford (6 Dec 2013)

matthewwh":1zb2fff8 said:


> AI's leave the factory ground just under 25 degrees, so that if required they can be honed at 25 and used for fine delicate paring without the user having to regrind the bevels. If you want to chop, mallet or use them for more general work, you add a secondary bevel.
> 
> 30 degrees is a good 'goldilocks' honing angle for general purpose bench chisels. There is enough difference between it and the primary bevel angle that the secondary can be honed efficiently many times before regrinding, it is strong enough to give good edge life and with a fine polish yields an edge that will cut with minimal pressure.
> 
> ...



I certainly don't care for A2 steel.

My guess is that those use a high angled chisel for paring use a shearing cut most of the time (using the outside 1/3 of each of the chisel's edge which can substantially lower the effective angle. They aren't really paring with anything near a 30*+ chisel, most likely an effective angle between 20* and 25*. This is fine as long as there's room to use a shearing motion. That isn't always the case, though.

We're still, of course, speaking of light material removal, paring, which is not taxing to edges - light pressure, removing whisps of material with each pass. I don't see the bright line between fine paring and carving that some apparently do. I see a much closer relationship. Some ridiculously efficient carvers have tools that rarely see stones so frequent are their touch-ups with a strop. It's built into their routine.


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2013)

Billy Flitch":370qifke said:


> Jacob I don't know what your point is about fantasy wood workers,I do have a full set of Parring chisels and some how don't regard my self as a fantacy wood worker,maybe I`m missing out on something.
> I was taught how to use them when I was an apprentice you can tell if some one is used to them just by the way they hold them and as for the length that would be so you can put weight on them with your shoulder,the only time that you put them under stress. If you where to use a bench chisel your nose would be scrapping the bench as you use the chisel.


Right ho maybe I'll get one and see what it does.
I've got a short old Sorby parer (i.e. thin bevel edged) and I've ground it at 15º to see how it behaves.


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## matthewwh (6 Dec 2013)

I'll lay a pound that you get progressive but marginally diminishing improvement in sharpness and progressive but marginally increasing fragility of the edge the further you go below 30. By the time you get to 15 it will be sharp enough to shave your face let alone your arm but need touching up very frequently if used on wood. 

The relationship continues when you head upwards from 30, which is why A2 honed at 35 seems to have massive edge retention compared to carbon at 25 or 30. The difference in wear resistance between the two is only about 6%, the rest of the perceived benefit comes from the honing angle. 

With plain carbon steels 30ish is the sweet spot where you get the optimum mix of sharpness and edge retention. It is the angle that most people use, it doesn't require a regrind every time you want to make a chopping cut (be it for stock removal or precision) and can therefore be described as 'normal'. Let's face it, if a maker of David Charlesworth's standing can pare satisfactorily at 30 degrees then it can't be all that bad, in fact his traditional Japanese paring chisels are probably a touch steeper than that.

It makes complete sense to have dedicated western paring chisels ground slightly lower and used carefully as Billy and CS descibe. I believe that all participants in the debate so far would concur that chopping with any steel ground at 25 degrees is likely to result in edge failure. I am not aware of any steel capable of taking a fine edge that will hold up to chopping when ground at 20 degrees, although it would be interesting to see how PMV11 RWL34 VG10 and other 'super steels' fair. Cabinet work does include a lot of paring (which I define as the chisel being pushed by hand and removing a thin shaving parallel to the surface) which is why bevel edged cabinetmakers chisels err more towards the paring end of general purpose with thin blades, fine sides and a factory ground bevel of just under 25 degrees. The equivalent, but biased towards the chopping end of things, would be firmer chisels - still ground at 25 for penetrative efficiency, but fatter steel, thicker edges and honed at 30-35. 

Paring chisels are long because the further apart your hands are, the more accurately you can intuitively maintain horizontal. (carry a brimming full wine glass up stairs holding the base in both hands, then try it again using a tray.) The relationship with plumb is less intuitive, but I agree that a long chisel is more comfortable to use than a short one for vertical paring.

The suggestion that quality is pointless on anything other than a paring chisel is otiose.


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## CStanford (6 Dec 2013)

Yes, a paring chisel might need frequent touchups depending on the work planned for the day. Is there anything inherently wrong with this? Paring a joint is not a fifteen or even five minute operation. It's the last two or three passes to bring mating surfaces to truth and fit. 

I still think we are laboring under a difference of opinion of exactly what paring is. If you can measure the amount of material you are removing, in my opinion that is not paring. It is removal of bulk, measurable waste and this can be done with a surprisingly pedestrian tool honed at a high angle for edge retention.


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## Kalimna (6 Dec 2013)

I would like to know, what do you mean by 'measurable'? Just curious.

Adam


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## CStanford (6 Dec 2013)

A millimeter or more - a measurement that exists on a common rule.


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## Racers (6 Dec 2013)

My neighbor was a pattern maker, not for all his life, he showed me a 11/2" chisel that looked like a normal Marples boxwood handled chisel, but it started out as a paring chisel and had been sharpened down to an normal chisel length, so I guess they got a lot of use!

Pete


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Dec 2013)

Patternmakers traditionally used very mild, straight-grained timbers such as Yellow Pine, baywood and Jelutong. Since engineering patterns had to be slightly tapered to allow them to draw out of moulding sand cleanly, paring - often at very precise dimensions - was an everyday task. Patternmakers traditionally pushed the long chisel with either their shoulder, or by a hand around the upper blade whilst the handle rested on their neck providing very precise guidance (this last is awkward unless you're used to it). However, so far I haven't found any information on recommended bevel angles for paring chisels. Given the mild nature of the woods used, I'd guess at sharper angles in the 20 - 25 degree range. Bear in mind that a patternmaker's chisels did all the chisel work, not just fine finish paring.

They also had sets of long, incannel paring gouges for working and finishing curved surfaces, and spoon gouges for surfaces curved in more than one direction.

Modern patternmaking uses far less wood. Materials such as plastics are far more prevalent, and the advent of 3D printing will almost certainly change the trade again.


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## Jacob (9 Dec 2013)

Ground 3 chisels to 15º and honed to slightly higher freehand. Yes very sharp, sharper than I need for most purposes. 
One of them is an old 1 1/4" Charles Taylor proper paring chis i.e. thin with fine bevels, which makes it quicker to grind. The others 1" and 5/8" Stanley 5001s (bought in the 70s).
The only interesting detail is that the 5001s hold an edge far better than the old Taylor, which chipped very quickly.
I also discovered how a long one would benefit: 
I have been fitting balusters into housings in newel caps. I've cut everything fairly tight which means having to ease in the odd one. Easiest way would be with long chisel taking off a thin neat parings and tapering the end. You can't do it quite so easily with a short one - you can't get the very acute angle. Reminded me of the Yankee screwdriver which has the (not obvious) advantage of of close control of the angle - particularly useful for things like sash catches close up to the glass which you can't screw with a short fat driver.

PS I've always thought 5001s were very good, this little test confirms it.


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## bugbear (10 Dec 2013)

Jacob":1c9yj4cm said:


> You can't do it quite so easily with a short one - you can't get the very acute angle.



You can get this without having to buy a traditional paring chisel - just fit a long handle; this is particularly easy with a socketed chisel.

Timber framers use long handles on their slicks for this reason (amongst others). Despite the somewhat rural appearance, a slick is a precision joint trimming tool.

BugBear


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## mind_the_goat (10 Dec 2013)

Hmm, cheesecake, nice, no need to worry about brittle edges on that.


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## Billy Flitch (10 Dec 2013)

I saw the cheesecake last Friday,I remember thinking then that it was, well a little bit childish.


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## JimF. (11 Dec 2013)

Billy Flitch":baoyzgjl said:


> I saw the cheesecake last Friday,I remember thinking then that it was, well a little bit childish.



I wondered what your comment was all about and searched through the thread. The OP has completely changed the first post which rather makes a mockery of all that follows.


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## dann (11 Dec 2013)

Just noticed... Silly drunken mate on my laptop, should have seen the state of Facebook
My apology...


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## MMUK (11 Dec 2013)

A serious question here guys.

Do you actually measure your angles? Or are we talking according to the eye angles?

I've never actually measured the angle of any chisel I've sharpened, I've always just trusted my eye and the feedback I'm getting from the chisel on wood. Does it really make such a difference having a perfect 15 or 25 degrees of bevel? I have to admit I can't see it myself...


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## Vann (11 Dec 2013)

MMUK":pqcjw583 said:


> Do you actually measure your angles? Or are we talking according to the eye angles?


I think I must be obsessive-compulsive #-o I record the angles I hone each chisel. 

E.g. my 1973 ¾" wooden handled bevelled edge Marples is honed with the MkII honing guide set at _standard angles_, at the E stop, with the roller in the 3o'clock postion (SE3), which gives an angle of 24.2°, then a microbevel was applied with the roller at 6o'clock (SE6), which = 24.7° - according to the blurb available from Lee Valley.

Did I mention I might be obsessive? :mrgreen: 

Then again, I care for and use tools as a hobby, so I'm only in it for whatever enjoyment/entertainment I find. It IS about the tools :wink: 

Cheers, Vann.


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## bugbear (11 Dec 2013)

Vann":3h1rjb1n said:


> Then again, I care for and use tools as a hobby, so I'm only in it for whatever enjoyment/entertainment I find. It IS about the tools :wink:



Testify, Brother!!

BugBear


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## CStanford (11 Dec 2013)

MMUK":155woelw said:


> A serious question here guys.
> 
> Do you actually measure your angles? Or are we talking according to the eye angles?
> 
> I've never actually measured the angle of any chisel I've sharpened, I've always just trusted my eye and the feedback I'm getting from the chisel on wood. Does it really make such a difference having a perfect 15 or 25 degrees of bevel? I have to admit I can't see it myself...



I measure from time to time to make sure they are in a certain range but it's mostly by eye at times in-between.

If honed on the grind the difference between 15 degrees and 25 degrees is noticeable in use. I use the hollow grind as a jig when honing chisels. I don't lift to introduce a higher honing angle at the tip.


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## matthewwh (11 Dec 2013)

The accuracy of the angle only becomes critical at lower bevel angles or when you are trying to balance the edge holding capability of the steel with your timber and working methods (bracketing). 

Far more important is repeatability, so you avoid removing steel unnecessarily.

I use marks on the bench to achieve the same projection in the honing guide each time, I measured the angles once and can now match them exactly ad infinitum.

The freehanding equivalent would be always using the stone in the same place relative to your body.


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## Jacob (11 Dec 2013)

matthewwh":332odole said:


> .......
> Far more important is repeatability, so you avoid removing steel unnecessarily........


I achieve repeatable results freehand by doing it the same way at the same angle, every time. :shock:


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Dec 2013)

Thought you might.


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## MMUK (11 Dec 2013)

phil.p":1vm6obxy said:


> Thought you might.



:lol: 

It's nice to be in the company of a true master of the art isn't it Phil? :wink:


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## Jacob (11 Dec 2013)

You could do it too. No great skill involved. Have a go!


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## Cheshirechappie (11 Dec 2013)

MMUK":1zhrbpou said:


> A serious question here guys.
> 
> Do you actually measure your angles? Or are we talking according to the eye angles?
> 
> I've never actually measured the angle of any chisel I've sharpened, I've always just trusted my eye and the feedback I'm getting from the chisel on wood. Does it really make such a difference having a perfect 15 or 25 degrees of bevel? I have to admit I can't see it myself...



I only 'measure' when regrinding. That takes place when I feel the tool needs it, either on the Tormek or on a 4" hand grinder. The grinding on the hand grinder is offhand, checking angle of grind with a home-made gauge - a piece of cardboard with notches cut in it's edges at angles from 20 degrees to 40 degrees by 2 1/2 degree increments. I made it up in a hurry as a temporary measure some years ago, pending the purchase of a proper brass one, but so far despite only being a piece of cardboard, it's lasted surprisingly well. If using the Tormek, I'll clamp the tool into the jig and eyeball the grind angle, then do about half the grind, check the angle with the cardboard gauge, and adjust as required.

The only problems I've had with offhand grinding is with narrow chisels - it's very easy to grind a skewed edge. You do have to concentrate a bit on keeping the edge square. With wider blades, it helps to monitor frequently by inspecting the partially ground bevel, and correct the amounts taken off different parts of the bevel as required.

It all sound very hit-and-miss, but with very little practice it quickly becomes second nature.

Honing is done without any measuring. I just register the ground bevel on the stone, raise a bit, and hone away until I've got a wire edge. If it's something that needs a really fine edge, I'll then put it to the polishing stone, and ditto repeato but raise it a degree or so more. Then back off on the polishing stone, strop off any remaining wire edge, and that's it. Rehoning is the same procedure, carried out as many times as I can get away with until the secondary bevel is too large to hone quickly, or has become too high an angle for the job in hand. Then it's a quick swipe over the grinding wheel again, and start the honing process again. I usually get about 8 or 10 hones for one grind, and don't grind right to the edge if I can avoid it.

I freely accept that this methodology is not very 'precise', and repeatability of honing angle is - erm - a tad variable, but it's quick and effective enough for the work I do. Well - it works for me, let's put it that way.

So what honing angles do I use? Haven't a clue, except that they're a bit higher than the grinding angles. I grind at 25 degrees for most chisels and all plane irons, and at 20 degrees for paring chisels, but I don't worry about a degree or so either way. If an edge crumbles, I hone a bit higher next time (though in my experience, that's rare); more often I find i have to regrind because the secondary bevel has become too high or too long. Mind you, I don't work with very hard exotics very often.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2013)

I set an angle if I'm grinding on my Sorby Proedge - stupid not too as it has fixed positions. 
I used to use a belt sander but then I'd grind free hand. There's something to be said for forming a convex bevel when grinding freehand - the point of contact shifts and risk of over heating is reduced. Not sure about this but it makes sense.


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## G S Haydon (12 Dec 2013)

[/quote]

I only 'measure' when regrinding. That takes place when I feel the tool needs it, either on the Tormek or on a 4" hand grinder. The grinding on the hand grinder is offhand, checking angle of grind with a home-made gauge - a piece of cardboard with notches cut in it's edges at angles from 20 degrees to 40 degrees by 2 1/2 degree increments. I made it up in a hurry as a temporary measure some years ago, pending the purchase of a proper brass one, but so far despite only being a piece of cardboard, it's lasted surprisingly well. If using the Tormek, I'll clamp the tool into the jig and eyeball the grind angle, then do about half the grind, check the angle with the cardboard gauge, and adjust as required.

The only problems I've had with offhand grinding is with narrow chisels - it's very easy to grind a skewed edge. You do have to concentrate a bit on keeping the edge square. With wider blades, it helps to monitor frequently by inspecting the partially ground bevel, and correct the amounts taken off different parts of the bevel as required.

It all sound very hit-and-miss, but with very little practice it quickly becomes second nature.

Honing is done without any measuring. I just register the ground bevel on the stone, raise a bit, and hone away until I've got a wire edge. If it's something that needs a really fine edge, I'll then put it to the polishing stone, and ditto repeato but raise it a degree or so more. Then back off on the polishing stone, strop off any remaining wire edge, and that's it. Rehoning is the same procedure, carried out as many times as I can get away with until the secondary bevel is too large to hone quickly, or has become too high an angle for the job in hand. Then it's a quick swipe over the grinding wheel again, and start the honing process again. I usually get about 8 or 10 hones for one grind, and don't grind right to the edge if I can avoid it.

I freely accept that this methodology is not very 'precise', and repeatability of honing angle is - erm - a tad variable, but it's quick and effective enough for the work I do. Well - it works for me, let's put it that way.

So what honing angles do I use? Haven't a clue, except that they're a bit higher than the grinding angles. I grind at 25 degrees for most chisels and all plane irons, and at 20 degrees for paring chisels, but I don't worry about a degree or so either way. If an edge crumbles, I hone a bit higher next time (though in my experience, that's rare); more often I find i have to regrind because the secondary bevel has become too high or too long. Mind you, I don't work with very hard exotics very often.[/quote]

Works for me too  (hammer) .


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Dec 2013)

Coming in a little late here.

Charles wrote:


> I do have to repeat, though, that 30*+ is the great equalizer IMO. At that angle, a pedestrian chisel will give more than adequate performance for those operations that 30* chisels are meant to perform (malleting and fairly aggressive hand-powered stock removal). That you are able to pare effectively at these high angles is a testament to you as a craftsman more than it is an endorsement of these angles for all times and in all places. I do also think that manufacturers are pretty much tickled when we buy into the 30* bit across the board - it certainly lets them off the hook in a lot of ways - viz. the OP in this thread - chisel is junk at 25* and a gem at 30*. Sounds like a $6 Blue Chip except the OP paid $75 US for the chisel. Oops.



and 



> Whacking away at bulk material doesn't require expensive chisels. Just grind an Aldi beater at 30*+ and have at it.



Charles, are you referring to all chisels at 30 degrees, or only chisels with O1 steel? 

In the following review I tested 4 steels in 1/4" bench chisels: "Four Chisel Steels Compared: PM-V11, A2, White Steel, O1/HCS"

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... pared.html

All the chisels had 30 degrees bevels. 

The results were dramatic: the White Steel and the PM-V11 steel stood out far ahead of the A2 and O1 steels. 

Just a reminder: the Japanese set bench chisels up at 30 degrees, and have done so for a long, long time. Paring chisels are another matter, but the OP started this discussion with reference to his bench chisel, and I thought that some objectivity was needed about the 30 degree bevel that has been questioned. For chisels that may see hammer use, 30 degrees is recommended. It is not a leveller. Even at this angle, good steel with easily be differentiated from so-so steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (13 Dec 2013)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Coming in a little late here.
> 
> Charles wrote:
> 
> ...



I demo'd a PMVII 1/2" chisel and reground the blade to a little less than 25* - at the same setting used to regrind and hone a 1/2" Blue Chip to compare the two. As I previously reported on other forums, *I did not experience anything even close to a dramatic difference between the two.* Both hit the 'rehone me' point at about the same time, the PMVII lasted a bit longer. The PMVII was honed on a Bester stone, sent by the manufacturer since he knew I only had oilstones on hand. I did like the stone I must say. I could take or leave the chisel based on its performance but I must admit that it was beautiful.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (13 Dec 2013)

Charles

Your "results" are so far off the feedback from many forums, the research that Lee Valley conducted and published, as well as the results I have that I am not sure what to make of your conclusion. Would you care to explain what you did to reach this?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (13 Dec 2013)

I used the chisels to pare joints and clear last bits of dovetail waste on a live woodworking project. I just used the chisel along with another chisel of mine. I gave them both what I considered to be about the same amount of use. This obviously was not some sort of controlled laboratory experiment. 

One appreciates your enthusiasm for all things Lee Valley. They're good chisels. They are. What they are not is a blockbuster breakthrough IMO. The PM chisel worked fine but it did not outlast the Blue Chip by a significantly noticeable amount. It did outlast it, but it simply was not a daylight to dark kind of thing in my shop. It honestly. Really. Wasn't.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (13 Dec 2013)

Charles, I am in disbelief. Really. I've had Blue Chip. They aren't as good as the Stanley 750 I used in my tests. And the Stanley came in last place. By a long way. A2 Blue Spruce lasted twice as long as the Stanley. And neither of these chisels were remotely in the same class as the Koyamaichi white steel and the Lee Valley/Veritas PM-V11. The best chisel was the Koyamaichi. The LV PM-V11 was close but not as durable. 

I'd be a fool to publish these results knowing that others could disprove them. The fact is that the results have been supported time and again by others.

The issue here is the 30 degree bevel used in these chisels. The results demonstrate that this angle does not equalise the chisels. The higher angle unquestionably adds durability to all steels used with a mallet, but good steel just gets even better.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (13 Dec 2013)

Derek, I stand by my conclusions and have disclosed my rather humble workaday methodology. I have virtually no skin in the game with Lee Valley or internet reputation to uphold. In short, it is what it is. I couldn't care less what anybody thinks. Wonder if that's a good thing? The PM did outlast the Blue Chip. It did. But it didn't blow it out of the water. 

I just bought a new pickup truck a little over two weeks ago. Would you be surprised to know that I think it's wonderful - best driving most powerful truck in its class in my humble opinion. You can go to a forum for GMC truck owners who'll say the same thing. Maybe it objectively is, maybe it isn't. Wonder what Ford and Dodge owners would say? Both of the latter two motor companies are welcome to send me a new truck apiece to test at my leisure and I'll report back.

I've always thought our roles to be reversed in our little debates, that you should be arguing the consumer psychology side and me the other side. Truth surely is stranger than fiction.

Toodles.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

matthewwh":3pa0pc5e said:


> T...
> I use marks on the bench to achieve the same projection in the honing guide each time, I measured the angles once and can now match them exactly ad infinitum.
> 
> The freehanding equivalent would be always using the stone in the same place relative to your body.


Er, what?
No that's not it. :lol: :lol: 
What you do if you want, say, 30º , is to hold the chisel on the stone at 30º as near as you can judge. I know that sounds too simple but it works. :shock:


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## MMUK (13 Dec 2013)

CStanford":2gykhyte said:


> I just bought a new pickup truck a little over two weeks ago. Would you be surprised to know that I think it's wonderful - best driving most powerful truck in its class in my humble opinion. You can go to a forum for GMC truck owners who'll say the same thing.



A Sierra by any chance? Please tell me it's black or white =P~ 

Much better looking than the RAM 1500 or the F150 :mrgreen: The Silverado isn't bad but it's still a Chevvy :lol:


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## CStanford (13 Dec 2013)

Sierra 2500HD in white....

The F150 looks like rubbish. I can't believe how they screwed that truck up.


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## RossJarvis (13 Dec 2013)

I presume by Sierra pickup, you really don't mean this?;


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## MMUK (13 Dec 2013)

One of these beauties


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## Vann (13 Dec 2013)

MMUK":de3mbsjy said:


> One of these beauties


Well, there goes the environment !! Were they out of electric scooters that day? (hammer) :mrgreen: 

Cheers, Vann.


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## CStanford (13 Dec 2013)

MMUK":2xln80qv said:


> One of these beauties




Yup... ain't she a 'beaut?


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## MMUK (13 Dec 2013)

Which engine did you go for? The 4.3l, 5.3l or 6l Vortec?


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## CStanford (13 Dec 2013)

MMUK":1666wie3 said:


> Which engine did you go for? The 4.3l, 5.3l or 6l Vortec?



Diesel.


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## RossJarvis (13 Dec 2013)

CStanford":1qo1atwk said:


> MMUK":1qo1atwk said:
> 
> 
> > Which engine did you go for? The 4.3l, 5.3l or 6l Vortec?
> ...



Diesel? In Memphis? Not in an 18 wheeler? Being a foreigner I'm obviously fairly ignorant, but I though diesel was unusual for smaller vehicles "over there".


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## CStanford (14 Dec 2013)

RossJarvis":2eeicx51 said:


> CStanford":2eeicx51 said:
> 
> 
> > MMUK":2eeicx51 said:
> ...



Not uncommon at all for many years now.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Dec 2013)

I'm only reading this thread because I have an interest in chisels...


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## RossJarvis (14 Dec 2013)

phil.p":2bjhpwlq said:


> I'm only reading this thread because I have an interest in chisels...



You've obviously been mistooken, any post on here about a cutting device is an excuse to argue about sharpening techniques, we've decided to overtake this thread to talk about cool trucks instead. If you've an interest in chisels I suggest you view a thread about wooden handles, or wood or maybe sea-horses. "Chisels" is to argue about bevel angles, grit sizes, metallurgy or anything else.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Dec 2013)

Who's "we"?


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## MickCheese (14 Dec 2013)

Have I been transported to Monty Python sketch?  

Mick


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## RossJarvis (14 Dec 2013)

phil.p":86aamfp1 said:


> Who's "we"?



Oops  apologies, I mean me, must refrain from using the computer after returning from the pub #-o


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## Benchwayze (15 Dec 2013)

Try a 30 degree hone, so you have a double bevel. 
If you hone one with the guide, and one by 'muscle memory', you might find which suits the chisels best. 

I have Marples chisels that won't hold a 'Guided' honed edge as well as they hold an edge achieved freehand. (I think it has to do with the support gained from the 25 degree bevel, (primary bevel) and how much meat there is behind the final (secondary bevel) bevel. 

Japanese chisels (I am told) are used with a single bevel. I ain't sure, but I trust the man who told me. 

HTH.


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## Benchwayze (15 Dec 2013)

Jacob":1rdbpnon said:


> matthewwh":1rdbpnon said:
> 
> 
> > T...
> ...



Nah Jacob... 

You really ought to leave your stone where it is, all the time, and have a pair of ski clamps fixed to the floor, to put your feet into. Then you'll know you're always standing in the right place, relative to your stone. :wink: 
Happy Christmas :ho2


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2013)

Benchwayze":2ambd59t said:


> Jacob":2ambd59t said:
> 
> 
> > matthewwh":2ambd59t said:
> ...


 :lol: 
Then get somebody to fix the elbow locks?


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## Benchwayze (16 Dec 2013)

Just make sure you have grease nipples on your elbows Jacob. I had some fitted to my metal knees! (Well I asked for some... The surgeon thought I was joking! :lol:


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