# Tailstock fittigs



## winemaker (10 Jan 2014)

This may be a daft question, I have a Record CL2 the Tailstock is hollow.I have a revolving center and Jacobs chuck on a m1 taper that do not revolve but I have noticed on a few videos they have revolving chuck fitted to the Tailstock. How do they do that :mrgreen:


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## CHJ (10 Jan 2014)

Scroll down to the bottom of this page.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue ... ccessories


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## woodndrum (10 Jan 2014)

In my experience (limited) it is more common practice to mount a Jacobs Chuck with a drill in the tailstock and the workpiece rotates against the stationery tool which can be advanced with the quill. On occasion a drill Chuck could be mounted in the headstock in order to spin a sanding flap wheel or similar. Often then with close up photos it can be confusing to see which end or side of the lathe is being pictured.


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## CHJ (10 Jan 2014)

woodndrum":22kkxm9r said:


> In my experience (limited) it is more common practice to mount a Jacobs Chuck with a drill in the tailstock and the workpiece rotates against the stationery tool which can be advanced with the quill. On occasion a drill Chuck could be mounted in the headstock in order to spin a sanding flap wheel or similar. Often then with close up photos it can be confusing to see which end or side of the lathe is being pictured.



Rotating chucks in tailstocks are not uncommon, they come into play when you want to give some better support for long items when a rotating centre is not appropriate.


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## woodndrum (10 Jan 2014)

Live centre in the tailstock yes of course, silly me. I read the post and thought the OP was referring to a powered rotation. I can often grab the wrong end of the stick, family laugh all day!


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## Bodrighy (11 Jan 2014)

woodndrum":9ie1xof2 said:


> On occasion a drill Chuck could be mounted in the headstock in order to spin a sanding flap wheel or similar.



Be very careful doing this. I do it by holding the Jacobs chuck in the scroll chuck, not inserting it directly into the morse taper which could be potentially dangerous as it has been know to fly out . Not something I would personally do. 

Pete


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## winemaker (11 Jan 2014)

Bodrighy":ds3t82aq said:


> woodndrum":ds3t82aq said:
> 
> 
> > On occasion a drill Chuck could be mounted in the headstock in order to spin a sanding flap wheel or similar.
> ...



Thanks a good safety point


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## Spindle (11 Jan 2014)

Bodrighy":1dkuyt9e said:


> Be very careful doing this. I do it by holding the Jacobs chuck in the scroll chuck, not inserting it directly into the morse taper which could be potentially dangerous as it has been know to fly out .



Hi

In my experience, provided things are in balance and there is some component of the tool force tending to seat the morse taper, (sanding against a disc / drilling etc.), it will not dislodge. If I have any concerns I can always bring the tailstock up very close to but not touching whatever is attached to the taper.

Fitting the Jacobs chuck to a scroll chuck would involve fitting a parallel shank to the Jacobs chuck and swapping it for a taper shank for use in the tailstock - I prefer to retain the integrity of the Jacobs chuck and it's associated taper.

Edited to add - I, and I'm sure many other members, use sanding drums in a pillar drill, ie no component of the force tending to seat the taper, I have never had the chuck in my pillar drill work loose from it's taper.

Regards Mick


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## Bodrighy (11 Jan 2014)

Spindle":2erne0nm said:


> Bodrighy":2erne0nm said:
> 
> 
> > Be very careful doing this. I do it by holding the Jacobs chuck in the scroll chuck, not inserting it directly into the morse taper which could be potentially dangerous as it has been know to fly out .
> ...



Sanding would be done at a slower speed and IME the pressure you put on the chuck isn't enough to guarantee that it will stay in place whereas holding it in a chuck, despite the fact that the shank is tapered is far safer. I speak from experience but by all means do it your way, just be aware of the possible problem. A Jacobs chuck with a sanding disc could be painful if it comes out even at slow speed. Whichever method you use just take care. Personally I have a dedicated disc I made with a tenon on it and use sticky back abrasive discs now which is better still.

Pete


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## Spindle (11 Jan 2014)

Bodrighy":3cj460wj said:


> holding it in a chuck, despite the fact that the shank is tapered is far safer.



Hi Pete

Each to his own but I'll not be advocating gripping a morse taper in a scroll chuck. :shock: 

However the practice may explain the tendancy for your tapers to not 'hold'

Regards Mick


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## CHJ (11 Jan 2014)

Taper fittings held in a headstock should never be used for any purpose that does not provide a positive forced means of location, a standard drive centre used for spindle turning is maintained in place by the pressure of the tailstock centre.
Any taper fitting used to drive chucks etc. should be held in place with a dedicated draw bar through the headstock spindle, even when subjected to drilling loads, which on the face of it would appear to force the taper tighter, they can be dislodged by a binding drill and pull the taper out of the headstock.

If you are lucky the chuck and taper just drops on the lathe bed as it's stopped rotating, if you're not lucky it is driven by centrifugal force as it exits the spindle in ever growing circles whilst you reach with the other hand for the off switch, with the possibility of it being launched together with any sharp/broken drills etc. looking for something convenient to impinge.

Using sanding drums on a pillar drill may be acceptable as the only thing that can happen at the lower machine speeds is that the chuck and anything it is holding just drops onto the table before the taper clears the spindle completely.


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## Bodrighy (11 Jan 2014)

CHJ":34faeszg said:


> Taper fittings held in a headstock should never be used for any purpose that does not provide a positive forced means of location, a standard drive centre used for spindle turning is maintained in place by the pressure of the tailstock centre.
> Any taper fitting used to drive chucks etc. should be held in place with a dedicated draw bar through the headstock spindle, even when subjected to drilling loads, which on the face of it would appear to force the taper tighter, they can be dislodged by a binding drill and pull the taper out of the headstock.
> 
> If you are lucky the chuck and taper just drops on the lathe bed as it's stopped rotating, if you're not lucky it is driven by centrifugal force as it exits the spindle in ever growing circles whilst you reach with the other hand for the off switch, with the possibility of it being launched together with any sharp/broken drills etc. looking for something convenient to impinge.
> ...



Think you are agreeing with me Chas so thanks. I have had a look at my Jacobs chuck and the last 1/2" on the shank is not tapered so when held in the chuck it is being held properly. Perhaps made for this purpose?

Pete


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## Spindle (11 Jan 2014)

CHJ":1z7ihe7n said:


> even when subjected to drilling loads, which on the face of it would appear to force the taper tighter, they can be dislodged by a binding drill and pull the taper out of the headstock.
> 
> If you are lucky the chuck and taper just drops on the lathe bed as it's stopped rotating, if you're not lucky it is driven by centrifugal force as it exits the spindle in ever growing circles whilst you reach with the other hand for the off switch, with the possibility of it being launched together with any sharp/broken drills etc. looking for something convenient to impinge.



Hi

Attention grabbing scenario, (one has to wonder why this scenario is not a consideration on pillar drills), but I'm not sure how it could actually occur - after all there is pressure being applied to the taper in order to perform the drilling operation, should the drill 'grab' and unseat the taper, (unlikely IMO when drilling into wood), I don't understand where the three inches or so of clearance comes from to allow the Jacobs chuck to fall from the headstock, the work should still be in place. 

Also, when using a sanding disc I would imagine others do as I and rest the work on the tool rest which will retain the chuck in the headstock should the taper not hold. (Though I think sometime in the future I will adopt Pete's method by making a couple of dedicated Velcro and MFD tenoned sanding discs for use in a chuck).

Anyhow, as I said - each to his own  

Regards Mick


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## CHJ (11 Jan 2014)

Spindle":2wqgvaj9 said:


> ..
> Attention grabbing scenario, (one has to wonder why this scenario is not a consideration on pillar drills), but I'm not sure how it could actually occur - after all there is pressure being applied to the taper in order to perform the drilling operation, should the drill 'grab' and unseat the taper, (unlikely IMO when drilling into wood), I don't understand where the three inches or so of clearance comes from to allow the Jacobs chuck to fall from the headstock, the work should still be in place. ...





CHJ":2wqgvaj9 said:


> .....
> Using sanding drums on a pillar drill may be acceptable as the only thing that can happen at the lower machine speeds is that the chuck and anything it is holding just drops onto the table before the taper clears the spindle completely.



I think if you had used my full post in your quote you would have answered your own thought regarding a pillar drill.


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## Spindle (11 Jan 2014)

Hi Chas

Fully read, understood and agree your point re sanding drums in pillar drills - my point was that similar circumstances exist when drilling on the lathe in that the work is in place and will prevent the taper disengaging fully. Hence quoting your response referencing drilling on the lathe.

Regards Mick


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## CHJ (11 Jan 2014)

Spindle":oxtq0wm9 said:


> Hi Chas
> 
> Fully read, understood and agree your point re sanding drums in pillar drills - my point was that similar circumstances exist when drilling on the lathe in that the work is in place and will prevent the taper disengaging fully. Hence quoting your response referencing drilling on the lathe.
> 
> Regards Mick



You occasionally see quoted "drilling hand held pieces" with a headstock mounted drill. 
In this scenario there is no positive location of the piece, a person new to turning not aware of the risks involved with using a non captive taper can be in serious trouble in the ensuing panic mode. 
Neither is there any positive location for someone using sanding drums or flap wheels with such a Morse taper only mounted 'Jacobs' chuck.

There is no need for this practise, Morse taper shanks are available in both imperial and metric retention thread versions and a short length of threaded rod and suitable nut and washer are cheap to obtain.


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## Mark Hancock (12 Jan 2014)

CHJ":fa348k3p said:


> You occasionally see quoted "drilling hand held pieces" with a headstock mounted drill.
> In this scenario there is no positive location of the piece, a person new to turning not aware of the risks involved with using a non captive taper can be in serious trouble in the ensuing panic mode.
> Neither is there any positive location for someone using sanding drums or flap wheels with such a Morse taper only mounted 'Jacobs' chuck.
> 
> There is no need for this practise, Morse taper shanks are available in both imperial and metric retention thread versions and a short length of threaded rod and suitable nut and washer are cheap to obtain.



Except when you don't have a hollow headstock spindle :?: 

My solution has always been to hold the Jacobs chuck in a scroll chuck using parallel jaws (Mick O'Donnell) to hold the Jacobs chuck body.


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## Spindle (12 Jan 2014)

Mark Hancock":1ti5fuoq said:


> My solution has always been to hold the Jacobs chuck in a scroll chuck using parallel jaws (Mick O'Donnell) to hold the Jacobs chuck body.



Hi

Has it occurred to you that your method of retaining the chuck is 'tending' to loosen it's hold?

Just a thought

Regards Mick


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## Mark Hancock (12 Jan 2014)

Spindle":azn1mjr1 said:


> Mark Hancock":azn1mjr1 said:
> 
> 
> > My solution has always been to hold the Jacobs chuck in a scroll chuck using parallel jaws (Mick O'Donnell) to hold the Jacobs chuck body.
> ...



Sorry Mick, being thick here, but don't understand what you are saying


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## CHJ (12 Jan 2014)

Mark Hancock":33n2tjot said:


> ....
> 
> Sorry Mick, being thick here, but don't understand what you are saying



Mark, assuming you are referring to a 'standard' keyed 'jacobs' style chuck, as you are gripping the actuating sleeve of the chuck, which is rotating towards you in an anti-clockwise direction in use.
Any turning loads applied to a drill etc. mounted in its jaws is trying to move the jaws and the body in a clockwise direction, which, if it happens will undo the chuck jaws.

You may be getting away with it because your clamping of the actuating sleeve is distorting it enough to grip the body of the chuck.


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## Spindle (12 Jan 2014)

Hi Mark

The normal design of a Jacobs chuck is such that turning the sleeve anti clockwise, (when viewed from the nose), loosens the grip. Gripping the sleeve in a scroll chuck imparts the same force.







Edited to correct terminology  

Regards Mick


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## Mark Hancock (12 Jan 2014)

Spindle":exq71zq8 said:


> Hi Mark
> 
> The normal design of a Jacobs chuck is such that turning the body anti clockwise, (when viewed from the nose), loosens the grip. Gripping the body in a scroll chuck imparts the same force.
> 
> ...



I see what you mean but doesn't happen because it's the body of the Jacobs that is held in the parallel jaws of the scroll chuck and so cannot move. I don't hold the Jacobs on it's morse taper.


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## CHJ (12 Jan 2014)

Mark Hancock":39lq8ttw said:


> ...because it's the body of the Jacobs that is held in the parallel jaws of the scroll chuck and so cannot move. ...


 You are holding the actuating sleeve Mark, not the chuck body, any turning forces on the item held in the jaws can turn the body in a clockwise direction undoing the grip.

Grip the chuck actuating sleeve in your scroll chuck and turn the body of the Jacobs chuck in a clockwise direction (the direction of any drilling or turning forces) you will see what we are referring to, as the body of the chuck rotates in a clockwise direction the jaws will open.


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## Jonzjob (12 Jan 2014)

Am I the only one with a 3/4" Jacobs chuck that is screwed onto the 1MT? It just screws straight onto the headstock screw. So there is no problem and no danger in using the Jacobs chuck in the headstock at all. 

If I am drilling anything on the lathe then I mount the Jacobs in the tail stock on its 1MT and spin it into the bit being drilled and for doing things with a hole right through them I drill first and then turn the object after that. That ensures that the hole is dead centre, it can't be owt else can it..

I use Carol drum sanders in my pillar drill too and on the very odd occasion the quill has come out. Tapped back in with my watchmakers 4lb hammer (hammer) (hammer) (hammer) it doesn't move again for ages (only kidding about the watchmakers hammer :mrgreen: )

I made myself a rig for sanding flat surfaces on the lathe and I turned a plate the same size as the normal sanding disks, 6" I think?. That just munts onto my Odonnel jawed K10 chuck. I turned 3 sizes on the back of the plate so that it doesn't matter which jaws I have in the chuck. Works fine and there is also a built in dust extract on the sanding bed too 8) 8)


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## Mark Hancock (12 Jan 2014)

CHJ":372epmvx said:


> Mark, assuming you are referring to a 'standard' keyed 'jacobs' style chuck, as you are gripping the actuating sleeve of the chuck, which is rotating towards you in an anti-clockwise direction in use.
> Any turning loads applied to a drill etc. mounted in its jaws is trying to move the jaws and the body in a clockwise direction, which, if it happens will undo the chuck jaws.



I now see what you are saying Chas :roll: 

But isn't this the way a Jacobs style chuck works on a hand drill as the rotation of the actuating sleeve of the chuck is the same in both situations and the load applied to say the drill bit is in the opposite direction?


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## CHJ (12 Jan 2014)

Yes the drill loads are the same but they are only transmitted into the chuck body which is held by the tanged taper, (to prevent galling of the taper if it should spin)
The actuating sleeve is just a passenger and of a relatively low mass in comparison with the tightening torque on the jaw scroll and does not have enough inertial energy on start up to slacken the scroll.


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## Spindle (12 Jan 2014)

Hi Mark

The torque is transmitted through the chuck body in normal operation, (not the sleeve as per your application), therefore there is no tendency to loosen the chuck.

Regards Mick


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## Mark Hancock (12 Jan 2014)

Chas & Mick

I obviously have to check this out in the workshop tomorrow. I use this method (Jacobs in scroll chuck) for many different applications. Maybe it's the way I tighten things :lol:


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## CHJ (12 Jan 2014)

As I said Mark, if your chuck has a relatively thin actuating sleeve you may well be distorting it enough to grip onto the chuck body, or you have never put enough turning load on whatever you have in the chuck jaws to counteract the torque load you applied with the key. The latter may well be the case if your tightening torque matches the power of Big Blue :lol: 

Just so long as you are now aware of the risk, best option is to look for a chuck with a parallel shank.


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## Robbo3 (13 Jan 2014)

I bought a 1/2" x 20 TPI male (1/2" UNF) adaptor from boffin53 on Ebay to suit a 3/4 x 16 TPI lathe. This allowed me to mount a 13mm keyless drill chuck on the headstock.

Since upgrading the lathe & wanting to utilise as many of my old lathe bits as possible, I now use an M33x3.5 to 3/4"x16 adaptor with the old adaptor & keyless chuck screwed on the end with no discernable run out.

I find it much easier to use two hands to clean up the bottom of turned pieces with a small sanding pad in a drill chuck mounted on the lathe, rather than one handed with a drill.


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## chipmunk (13 Jan 2014)

I hate to throw a spanner in the works here but most Jacobs chucks are held on an arbor with two tapers - one on each end.

So, a draw-bar through the headstock only really secures the Morse taper and not the Jacobs (JTX) or Metric (B16 usually) taper in the chuck body - There is still the possibility that the other taper will pop out which is much shorter unless, as others have suggested a screw mounting is used. 

As a fan of Axminster chucks I favour a Morse Taper carrier for holding my drill chucks rather than gripping them in the chuck. I have a standard one for my C-jaws and a modified one with dovetail to fit my 50mm O'Donnell jaws. I could use a draw-bar on my chuck but don't.

I personally think that if the user is aware of the dangers i.e. that the taper(s) may pop out it is perfectly possible to counteract the effect by either being ready to hold it in while the lathe is switched off (!), position the tailstock to prevent the tapers popping out or to position the edge of the toolrest in such a way as to prevent the chuck body moving too far off either taper.

HTH
Jon


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## CHJ (13 Jan 2014)

The main saving grace if the chuck taper should let go is that the chuck will only stop or have to move a short distance before it drops onto the lathe bed. (Not as likely a scenario as a dusty or abused Morse taper socket letting go)

When a Morse taper lets go the attendant wobble developing as the taper moves out driven by the extra centrifugal force of the chuck can be quite alarming.

Must admit using a 'Jacobs' style chuck in a headstock is something I personal don't ever do as I have a 100mm scroll chuck that will grip down to 6mm for sanding pads if needed.


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## chipmunk (13 Jan 2014)

CHJ":n6bja4sc said:


> The main saving grace if the chuck taper should let go is that the chuck will only stop or have to move a short distance before it drops onto the lathe bed. (Not as likely a scenario as a dusty or abused Morse taper socket letting go).



I agree Chas, the chucks are usually so jammed on that getting them off the other taper is usually the main problem if you ever want to. But I had a B16 taper chuck on my cheap drill press that was always dropping off until I replaced it - there is so much cheap tat around these days.



CHJ":n6bja4sc said:


> Must admit using a 'Jacobs' style chuck in a headstock is something I personal don't ever do as I have a 100mm scroll chuck that will grip down to 6mm for sanding pads if needed.



Yes, it's often worth using engineering jaws in the scroll chuck for this type of thing or perhaps best of all a collet chuck like the Junior chuck. If it's good enough for milling machines, it ought to be good enough for wood lathes :wink: 

Jon


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## woodndrum (13 Jan 2014)

Wow, interesting points raised by a misunderstanding. When I mentioned fitting a Jacobs chuck in the headstock, that is what I meant. The Jacobs chuck on, in my case a MT2 into the headstock spindle. Had I thought of something being mounted and held in a scroll chuck That is the wording I would choosen. 
I would have thought that the seasoned turners here would have credited me with some intelligence NOT to recommend trying to grip a taper fitting in a parallel jaw. (To the MOD's Sorry I started this. Keith)


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## Spindle (13 Jan 2014)

Hi Keith

It was another member that stated he mounted a taper in a scroll chuck - have a re-read - threads have a tendency to wander somewhat

Regards Mick


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## chipmunk (14 Jan 2014)

Spindle":2kbgn2oh said:


> - threads have a tendency to wander somewhat



...never a truer word :wink: :wink:


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## winemaker (14 Jan 2014)

Just to add to the debate 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater :?: :?:


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## Mark Hancock (14 Jan 2014)

CHJ":x25wauox said:


> Mark Hancock":x25wauox said:
> 
> 
> > ...because it's the body of the Jacobs that is held in the parallel jaws of the scroll chuck and so cannot move. ...
> ...



Chas

I checked this out to day in the workshop and found whatever I did I couldn't get the Jacobs chuck jaws to loosen their grip. But if I tried on the body (where the chuck key goes) the jaws do loosen. :?:


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## Spindle (14 Jan 2014)

Hi Mark

That is what I was referring to, when you bore into the work the drill encounters resistance which tries to stop it turning - this resistance, (reaction), is transmitted to the chuck body, the sleeve is still being driven by the lathe which will tend to loosen the jaws.

You can simulate this by holding the chuck body still whilst rotating the lathe, (by hand), in it's normal direction of rotation - the jaws will open. Was this what you observed?

Regards Mick


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## Robbo3 (15 Jan 2014)

woodndrum":33tpylib said:


> Wow, interesting points raised by a misunderstanding. When I mentioned fitting a Jacobs chuck in the headstock, that is what I meant. The Jacobs chuck on, in my case a MT2 into the headstock spindle. Had I thought of something being mounted and held in a scroll chuck That is the wording I would choosen.
> I would have thought that the seasoned turners here would have credited me with some intelligence NOT to recommend trying to grip a taper fitting in a parallel jaw. (To the MOD's Sorry I started this. Keith)


Keith, it's all about passing on the knowledge that we have acquired, especially to those that are learning.

Sometimes I am surprised that something that I think is common knowledge, isn't, & conversely, when I read something by someone who has overcome a problem that I have perhaps not solved, or solved differently, I get that 'doh' moment when it crosses my mind that I should have thought of that particular solution.


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## Mark Hancock (15 Jan 2014)

Spindle":1zh36ke8 said:


> Hi Mark
> 
> That is what I was referring to, when you bore into the work the drill encounters resistance which tries to stop it turning - this resistance, (reaction), is transmitted to the chuck body, the sleeve is still being driven by the lathe which will tend to loosen the jaws.



This I couldn't get to happen regardless of whatever load or resistance I applied to the item held by the chuck :?: 



Spindle":1zh36ke8 said:


> You can simulate this by holding the chuck body still whilst rotating the lathe, (by hand), in it's normal direction of rotation - the jaws will open. Was this what you observed?
> 
> Regards Mick



Yes I could do this.


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## Mark Hancock (15 Jan 2014)

Robbo3":g2jjawgz said:


> woodndrum":g2jjawgz said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, interesting points raised by a misunderstanding. When I mentioned fitting a Jacobs chuck in the headstock, that is what I meant. The Jacobs chuck on, in my case a MT2 into the headstock spindle. Had I thought of something being mounted and held in a scroll chuck That is the wording I would choosen.
> ...



Exactly Robbo. Still learning after 25 years


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## Spindle (15 Jan 2014)

Hi Mark

I think you can now see what I was referring to - if the drill is clamped in the chuck using the chuck key you will not be able to loosen the chuck purely by hand pressure, however the tendency for it to become undone due to the lathe gripping the sleeve is demonstrated by you holding the empty chuck body whilst rotating the lathe and observing the chuck jaws loosening. Under power, loosening could be initiated by vibration or shock loading.

Regards Mick


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## Mark Hancock (15 Jan 2014)

Spindle":3lb5xm14 said:


> Hi Mark
> 
> I think you can now see what I was referring to - if the drill is clamped in the chuck using the chuck key you will not be able to loosen the chuck purely by hand pressure, however the tendency for it to become undone due to the lathe gripping the sleeve is demonstrated by you holding the empty chuck body whilst rotating the lathe and observing the chuck jaws loosening. Under power, loosening could be initiated by vibration or shock loading.
> 
> Regards Mick



Yes Mick I understand that but it's the last bit that I couldn't get to happen ..".Under power, loosening could be initiated by vibration or shock loading." Maybe I've just been fortunate? I'll continue to use this way of holding a Jacobs chuck as I find it very useful but I'll certainly be more aware in the future of what may happen.


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