# Raised beds (now with pics)



## miles_hot (16 Mar 2010)

In parallel with the fish tank build I will also be knocking together a set of raised beds. These will be around 2' tall and will be build using 2"x4" (approx) decking joists. I plan to wrap the inner surface in membrane to keep the soil away from the wood and hopefully prolong the life span of the "eco treated" softwood as I couldn't justify the outlay on oak. The top of each wall will then have an Oak sliver (maybe 2x1") of oak to hide the plastic. I plan to prefab each wall panel in the garage and then basically but joint each one to form the boxes of the raised beds in situ.

Currently I am trying to work out how to join the joists together to form each wall - something that is complicating matters is I am attempting to figure out how to enable each joist to be replaced separately when they actually start to rot out. This sort of rules out biscuit joints or just screwing each joist to the one below. The the moment it seems to be:
- Screwed to a strap on the outside of the bed
- Pocket screwed to the one below
- Bolted to a a strap inside the bed (would need to do something about the plastic when it comes time to replace

Any ideas?

Miles
PS Will post some pics of the design up when I have a little more time


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## wizer (16 Mar 2010)

On my old allotment I used 2x6 nailed together with a gas nailer (paslode). I copied a guys design on another plot. His had been there 10yrs. I reckon you've got at least 20yrs before it rots to the point you will have to replace it. If you're that worried then you could clad the front with shingles at a later date (I wouldn't). 

How tall are these 'walls' going to be? The taller they are the more soil you're going to have to put in. If you're buying it, it becomes expensive (and back breaking).

Is this a veg plot or flowers?

This is all fresh in my mind as it's high on my to do list, now spring is threatening to break.


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## matt (16 Mar 2010)

How about wrapping each 2x4 individually and then screwing it to posts sunk in to the ground?


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## jedmc571 (16 Mar 2010)

Could you simply butt join at the corners and countersink M6 / M8 Stainless coach screws and a washer? you can then remove it individually.

Straping would look untidy IMO, I used the above method about 10 years ago, the Tanalised timber was painted ( fence treatment ) and the coach screws uniformly fitted really stood out as a feature.

Cheers

Jed

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/13503/Bol ... Pack-of-10

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/54830/Bol ... Pack-of-10


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## frugal (16 Mar 2010)

I am currently doing something similar in the garden. 2' tall seems very high. I am making 6 beds, each 10'x4' and 8" high. I am working on the theory that the wood will take long enough to rot that we will have rearranged the garden by the time it gets bad enough to replace.

I am not bothering to use plastic sheeting as the compost heaps have survived well enough for 10 years 

I am using 2" posts 2' long in each corner and along the sides, then just screwing planks to the posts. The whole lot then gets a coat of presetvative before being back filled with soil and compost.

I am sure that I could have just used the posts at 8" long and rested the whole thing on the ground, but I wanted to ensure that the sides did not bow out. So it ia all anchored 16" into the ground.

My first attempt was to make it all up in the workshop first and then just hammer it all into place. That caused the planks to split as it was driven in unevenly. Now I put the corner posts in first and get them all the right height (the ground is sloping and uneven so there has been a significant amounbt of digging out). Then I put the top planks on all around and then once I am happy that everything is straight I put on the bottom row of planks.


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## miles_hot (16 Mar 2010)

wizer":3w00a8dh said:


> On my old allotment I used 2x6 nailed together with a gas nailer (paslode). I copied a guys design on another plot. His had been there 10yrs. I reckon you've got at least 20yrs before it rots to the point you will have to replace it. If you're that worried then you could clad the front with shingles at a later date (I wouldn't).
> 
> How tall are these 'walls' going to be? The taller they are the more soil you're going to have to put in. If you're buying it, it becomes expensive (and back breaking).
> 
> ...



The walls will be 2' tall - that is a lot of soil however I have two siazable piles from when we had the extension done to get rid of in the lawn as it stands so the hight is a useful thing. It will also reduce the amount of bending / kneeling which will be a blessing.

The plot will be mainly veg with some flowers - we will be adapting the "square foot garden" method so that will be interesting.

The breaking of spring is also in mind - I've just ordered the 19 odd metres of 2x4 which will be needed (though that figure feels alittle low in some respects - maybe the project is just looming large in my mind?!)

When you talk about the wood in the allotment staying there for 20 years I assume that it was softwood in contact with the ground? I ask as fence posts seem to rot rather faster than that 

Miles


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## miles_hot (16 Mar 2010)

matt":25ccv4o7 said:


> How about wrapping each 2x4 individually and then screwing it to posts sunk in to the ground?



Unless the post is on the outside I can't see that this would help - and if the post is on the outside it seems to me that having the poly spanning the gap of the plank that has just been removed would help the whole process.

Thinking about it if I have the post on the outside I would be unable to remove an individual plank without removing the post.

If the post is on the inside screwing to it will puncture the membrane limiting it's usefulness in waterproofing the timber. Rats, I think the post idea doesn't work with the membrane idea! Mind you from what others have been saying I may not need the membrane...

Miles


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## frugal (16 Mar 2010)

You haven't said how long or wide this bed is going to be. even with 2" thick walls, a 2' high bed is a lot of weight to retain without the sides bowing.

Admittedly I am only using 3/4" think planks rather than 2", but even with 8" high walls I need a support post every 2' or so to stop it bowing out.


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## miles_hot (16 Mar 2010)

jedmc571":2w5srucm said:


> Could you simply butt join at the corners and countersink M6 / M8 Stainless coach screws and a washer? you can then remove it individually.
> 
> Straping would look untidy IMO, I used the above method about 10 years ago, the Tanalised timber was painted ( fence treatment ) and the coach screws uniformly fitted really stood out as a feature.
> Cheers
> Jed


I'm not sure I understand - don't coach screws have to have a nut? In which case where are your screws put and in what orientation? 

many thanks

Miles


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## miles_hot (16 Mar 2010)

frugal":25jkc9jm said:


> You haven't said how long or wide this bed is going to be. even with 2" thick walls, a 2' high bed is a lot of weight to retain without the sides bowing.
> 
> Admittedly I am only using 3/4" think planks rather than 2", but even with 8" high walls I need a support post every 2' or so to stop it bowing out.



The beds will be 4' and 2' wide, I can't remember the lenghts (as promised I'll post some pictures tonight) but between the thee beds I think I have around 90 square feet, so something like 2x12, 9x4 and 8x4 feet??

I wasn't expecting to have to stake the centres of the walls - partly because when you mount up soil it takes around a 45* slope so that implies that only a triangle 2'x2' will need to be supported and I figured a 2" wall would be able to do this. I am of course all ears if this is not thought to be the case.

In terms of staking to the ground I was again not expecting to do this (thought my original design did have this) as the box would be heavy enough not to move and would be pretty ridged as a structure. ... again all ears if this is being silly!

Miles


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## BMac (16 Mar 2010)

I use scaffold planks to build raised beds. The beds are 8'x4'x9" and I use a kneeler to work at them. I put 3"x3"x12" posts in the corners and one in the middle of each long side and just dig a little hole for each to hold the bed in position. 

It takes a huge amount of material to fill a bed (three beds take about 2 cubic metres) so you are going to get plenty of shovelling practice with 2' high walls. You will need to reinforce the walls because, as the soil compacts, it will push them out. I would suggest getting a few big bags of perlite and mixing that it to ease the load a bit as well as giving good soil structure. 

I don't use a preservative because the beds will last for ages and cost me nothing because I get the planks from a mate who runs a plastering firm and is dumping planks that would fail H&S all the time.

Brendan


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## wizer (16 Mar 2010)

The plot that I mentioned in my initial post used standard sawn 2x4s from a builders yard and was just sitting on the soil and he'd not treated it any further, no inner liner and he said it'd been there 10yrs. It looked in good nick, so I see no reason why it wouldn't have gone longer.

I think you need to think about how long you're going to want these beds in their current position. 2' high is fine but I wouldn't fill it to the top. Leave plenty of room for mulching. The benefit of raised beds is that the soild doesn't become compacted and, with continued mulching will be fab for veg.

I wouldn't recommend the square foot method. Too formulaic and very American. Just follow the cottage garden method (forget the book\tv series).


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## Dan-K (16 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":hzv2skx7 said:


> I've just ordered the 19 odd metres of 2x4....



Did you miss a zero off there? Because with 2' walls and your 3 beds...well I worked it out to be in the region of 140 metres required (468 feet).

Have you considered using sleepers? They make excellent raised beds, won't need posts to hold them up, and won't bow...and second hand ones are heavily preserved so last forever.... plus, they're usually oak. And they're not so expensive considering what you get for the price.


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## miles_hot (16 Mar 2010)

Dan-K":hemnrb75 said:


> miles_hot":hemnrb75 said:
> 
> 
> > I've just ordered the 19 odd metres of 2x4....
> ...



Ah... good spot  I'e actually ordered 260m 

Miles


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## miles_hot (16 Mar 2010)

And now the pictures. I have shown the garden with the "square foot garden" grid as that's this week's book. Tom - do you have any further clues on your suggested approach as there's a lot of books out there with the sort of title! I agree that his approach is both very formulaic and rather boastful - i.e. I invented it all and "if it doesn't have a grid it's not a SFG"!  . It does however seem to have some good points in it so we'll be heavily borrowing from it 



 



All in all looks like a lot of work 

Miles


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## BMac (17 Mar 2010)

Miles, my two reference books are 'The Vegetable Expert' by Dr. D.G. Hessayon and a new publication by Gardeners' World called 'Grow Your Own'. I find myself leaning towards the GW publication more and more.

Brendan

(There is a 'Grow Your Own' (very good) magazine too, not to be confused with the GW title)


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## miles_hot (17 Mar 2010)

BMac":14c36dej said:


> Miles, my two reference books are 'The Vegetable Expert' by Dr. D.G. Hessayon and a new publication by Gardeners' World called 'Grow Your Own'. I find myself leaning towards the GW publication more and more.
> 
> Brendan
> 
> (There is a 'Grow Your Own' (very good) magazine too, not to be confused with the GW title)



Do these contain references to the differences that the raised bed approach can bring - as I understand it stuff can be grown closer together (overall) than would be normal in a veg patch such as my dad uses where you have to be able to get between the rows?

Miles


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## jedmc571 (17 Mar 2010)

Miles,

Coach screws are just a bigger version of a normal screw, you're confusing it with a coach bolt.

They are fitted through pre drilled holes through the end face of one timber into the end grain of the other, easily allowing you to remove if required, but considering Tanalised timber has a life exppectancy of 20 years above ground and 10 - 15 years with ground contact, I think you might be over thinking this one.

Cheers

Jed


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## wizer (17 Mar 2010)

Miles it was the guy who used to present Gardener's World before Titchmarsh. Geoff something I think. I'll go through my collection later and dig it out.


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## miles_hot (17 Mar 2010)

wizer":1sh1dai1 said:


> Miles it was the guy who used to present Gardener's World before Titchmarsh. Geoff something I think. I'll go through my collection later and dig it out.



Thanks Tom

Miles


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## miles_hot (17 Mar 2010)

jedmc571":351ksvzb said:


> Miles,
> 
> Coach screws are just a bigger version of a normal screw, you're confusing it with a coach bolt.


Ah -  that would be the case 


> considering Tanalised timber has a life exppectancy of 20 years above ground and 10 - 15 years with ground contact, I think you might be over thinking this one.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jed



Fair play - I'm starting to get that feeling  The only concern is now around the bowing bit - which seems to need a post of some sort within the bed to screw the joists to.

Miles


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## BMac (17 Mar 2010)

Miles,

Those books don't specifically deal with raised beds but, rather, vegetable growing techniques. If I were you I'd investigate the raised bed techniques online because there are so many theories but, essentially, they all boil down to standard procedures but putting plants closer together.

I did consider the square foot method but, like another poster here, didn't like the regimentation involved because gardening is supposed to be fun and I'm not growing for commercial reasons where I need maximum return. The only aspect of growing that I do adhere to is crop rotation which is easy with the loads of beds I have. However, I am a bit sceptical about the square foot crop rotation theory because it implies that there are vertical barrier between each section where certain soil constituents are used up and others not. You have 3 beds so I would rotate on that basis rather than trying to remember which square foot had brassicas and which had roots. 

Now, having bashed the square foot method a bit I have to say it is very productive if you are well organised and keep good records. I would suggest using general fertilisers and soil improvers to keep nutrient levels high because of the demand on the beds. Gardeners' World did a slot on the method and there was an amazing amount of veg produced but that was done by students, under controlled conditions, in an agricultural college or similar institution. The same results are possible in a garden but, from what I saw, a lot of time would need to go into the project. I love veg growing but I don't want to become a slave to the raised beds (bad enough that I'm a slave to a greenhouse).

So, what to do? I would say give the square foot gardening a go if that's what you want to try but be organised and prepared for crop changes. I would also suggest that you don't get too tied up in 'rules' and apply general growing techniques to your beds.

If you look up 'baconsoda' on YouTube you'll be able to see what I am at.

Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/user/baconsoda#g/u

Brendan


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## yo_chuci (17 Mar 2010)

hi all... thought i'd throw in my view as i put in some raised beds last year...








this was july ish of last year (just after i had finished the deck tho there is now a sandpit in that corner)
the garden slopped slightly towards the house so had to take that into account with the bed thats full of potatoes...
i got some 5x2 joists from a reclamation place and used those. so that bed is in effect 10" tall...
the bed with the plastic (covering the grass that was lifted from where the deck now is) is only 1 board high (5") and the bed that the pic is taken from is 2 boards high at the bark path but 1 board high on the other side (due to slope of garden) 
both were filled with compost and topsoil and some soil improver. all bought from b and q cos the had offers of buy 2 huge bags get another free etc... and as we needed abit it was cheaper that way...
now i am about to take off the plastic and turn over the soil there and add some compost etc and put the pots in there. should help break it down abit more...

ps gardeners world before alan titch was i think geoff hamilton


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## paininthe (17 Mar 2010)

If your bed is going to be wider than your reach knelt down. Make sure you can get around your raised bed or bad backs will ensue and it will not be tended as well on the far side.


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## big soft moose (17 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":8idynh5l said:


> jedmc571":8idynh5l said:
> 
> 
> > Could you simply butt join at the corners and countersink M6 / M8 Stainless coach screws and a washer? you can then remove it individually.
> ...



no coach screws are like a big screw but with a hex (bolt type) head - you can wind them in to a predrilled hole with a socket but by far the quickest is a socket adaptor mounted in an sds drill


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## big soft moose (17 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":5ebteku0 said:


> Fair play - I'm starting to get that feeling  The only concern is now around the bowing bit - which seems to need a post of some sort within the bed to screw the joists to.
> 
> Miles



one option would be to use ecodeck plastic posts for the corners - mbeing recycled plastic they dont rot. (in fact if you hadnt already bought the scafolding planks i'd say use ecodeck for everything)

its quite expensive to get hold of in small quanties (though fairly cheap in bulk) - not a problem in your case as a freindly member of national trails staff not a million miles away has a whole load of bits of 3x3 ecodeck to get rid of in the near future


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## jedmc571 (17 Mar 2010)

Crikey !

BSM, that's certainly a definate explanation of "Coach Screw" nice pic

I built a 20 x 10 Workshop 10 years ago, and put it together with them, they really are more substantial than a normal screw.

I like the SDS idea :wink: I did it with a ratchet  as if a mans right arm needs all that exercise :lol: 

Regarding the timber bowing, cut a point on one of your timbers, and make a stake, hammer it into the ground ( depending on your soil you may have to dig a hole and backfill, but it will need to be longer, to account for soil structure being disturbed) in the midle of your walls, and screw from the inside to the outer timbers, that will prevent bowing in the middle, you can use more if required spread equally, and another tip is to line the inside first with weed suppressing fabric, and then plastic inside that, it prevents weeds germinating through from outside, and helps the plastic from getting ripped / torn inside.

It's a nice project raised planters, I'll keep an eye on this one :wink: 
Cheers

Jed


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## dicktimber (17 Mar 2010)

miles

12" x 1" boards
2" x 2" stakes secured into ground to fasten boards to.

It's important that where you position raised beds you consider the following.

1 The siting to maximize the daily sun.
2. That you dig down before putting raised beds in place incorporating bulky matter ie horse muck on straw, compost, grit.
This is to ensure that when the 12" boards are in place there is enough depths for crops like spuds etc.
3 Drainage. This is very very important because if the place you select for the raised beds does not drain the beds will become waterlogged.
So digging and incorporating grit, sand as in 2 above should be considered to ensure good drainage.
4 Use a good quality top soil or loam to top up the raised beds.
BUT DO NOT FILL TO THE TOP.
You want the raised bed to act like a walled garden, giving reflected heat from the sun back into the raised bed. By leaving about 4"from the top of the boards this will create a micro climate inside the raised beds, keeping plants a bit warmer and helping germination.
It will also stop soil spilling all over the place.

For plants to grow they need, light,water,oxygen and drainage at their roots.
The oxygen is held in pockets in the soil. Soil is made up of minute particles of grit, and holds oxygen. If you fill the raised beds with a media that does not hold enough oxygen the crops will struggle.
That's why John innes mix is formulated the way it is, with grit to aid holding oxygen and help drainage, loam to hold moisture..etc
So, a good top soil and maybe some loam, both available in grab bags is an option to fill the beds with.

I always crop rotate..but that is another subject.


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## miles_hot (16 Apr 2010)

I chased up UKOAk for the timber on Tuesday and got a email saying that the wood would be delivered on Thursday. Then I got a call saying that the 30 odd 4m and 3.6m lengths had been damaged and could I cope with 88 3m lengths.

I did some calculations and worked out that I would need around 90 3m lengths which George at UK Oak was able to supply and ignored the minor uplift in cost.

It turns out that just after sending the all clear email to me that a 300x300x5m oak bean was dropped from a lorry crane across my longer timbers and snapped them all in half! 

I rushed out and sorted some 3x4" bearers into position - the 3m lengths turned out to be a blessing as I could fit them across the slope rather than down it.




The timber turned up as promised early mid afternoon and was craned into position. 


 

 

 


Oh by goodness there's a lot of wood. Now I need to get down to producing a comprehensive cut list and getting this pile into some sort of order. I did notice when the lengths were being craned in that there are one or two fairly ratty lengths on the bottom of the pile so I plan to use those at the back of the L shaped bed and on the bottom...

All in all going to be a busy boy! 

Miles


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## chill (16 Apr 2010)

looking good, don`t forget to leave enough room to get your mower inbetween the beds, sorry if I`m teaching you to suck eggs


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## miles_hot (16 Apr 2010)

chill":33mqkaut said:


> looking good, don`t forget to leave enough room to get your mower inbetween the beds, sorry if I`m teaching you to suck eggs


yep have done - thought it may be tight (if so have a stimmer!)

Miles


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## flying haggis (16 Apr 2010)

chill":39ensehf said:


> looking good, don`t forget to leave enough room to get your mower inbetween the beds, sorry if I`m teaching you to suck eggs



as for the room required to get the mower in, dont do what I did and measure across the wheels without noticing that the cutting deck was wider! :roll:


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## Kalimna (19 Apr 2010)

Daft question, but from an earlier reply - where is the best place to acquire scaffolding boards? Do scaffolding companies just tend to sell off/dispose of old boards no longer structurally sound?

I have a couple of raised beds at my allotment, but feel that the wood has seen better days. The strawbs were rooting *through* the wood....

Cheers,
Adam


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## big soft moose (19 Apr 2010)

ebay is quite good for job lots of softwood (better if you have transport as most are pick up only)

such as

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/13ft-Scaffold-Boa ... 1c0979ef57

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50-Used-11ft-Scaf ... 4a9f471d8b

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Scaffold-boards-1 ... 45f256f14b

apart from ebay itis also worth checking out freecycle for old floorboards etc, looking in skips for pallets etc, and seeing if you have a wood recycling project nearby (our local one sells used scaffie board at 2 quid per linear metre)


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## OPJ (19 Apr 2010)

Salvage and Reclamation yards are supposed to be a good source for scaffold planks. That's where Rico "The Salvager" Daniels used to get his, anyway. There's bound to be one locally in your Yellow Pages and, with a bit of bartering, you may be able to get a good deal.


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