# Hegner vs. Excalibur EX21



## Redbythesea (18 Aug 2015)

Hi All - new to this forum but just by reading the help shown and given to other subscribers I'm pleased to have joined.

My partner put me onto scrolling as she had used one in work and said they were great fun and very theraputic.

I am aware that these kind of threads get tedious but I am contemplating purchasing either the Hegner 2 speed or the Excalibur EX21. I have Youtubed and searched the net for advice and help. Hegner appears to be highly rated but I like the 'look' of the EX21 - the tilting arm looks sensible and useful and the blade changing looks easy. Creating internal cuts looks simple - I read somewhere that the Hegner is more 'fiddly' and will only take bottom feed ?? Likewise - you have to use a tool etc. Having a quick feed facility is most important to me and certainly want a top feed as my back couldn't stand constantly bending down and trying to threadle blades etc under the table! 

Equally - I am aware that Hegner has a great repuattion for realibilty and that customer service is excellent - I have been alarmed by the many complaints re Excaliburs are not so realiable. I certaintly do not wish to spend most of my time packaging up a faulty good and having to get it to the post office paying for such a heavy item being returned all the time. I want to be using it...

Also - confused - went onto Hegner's website and it appears that the same model (with same wattage, dimensions, throat clearence etc) but different prices? Also - can you purchase Hegners from other sites or are all they sold direct from them?

Sorry to be a bore except when one is about to make an expensive investment I'm not certain if it just luck of the draw in getting a 'Friday Afternoon' product or whether there are serious design faults with either model etc.

At your mercy ladies and gents...but thank you in anticpation of all your answers.

Cheers

Phil


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## ChrisR (18 Aug 2015)

Phil.
First welcome to the forum.

I am not going to comment on the Excalibur, as I have never seen one in the flesh so to speak, let alone trying one, so it would be pointless to pass comment for or against.

I have however owned and used a Hegner for many years. The use has been heavy during those years, and I have never replaced one part in that time, (excluding blades), which run into the thousands.

Blade changing on the Hegner is very straight forward and simple, my projects are varied from completely external cuts, to work with in some cases hundreds of internal cuts, blade threading never a problem.

You mention the two Hegner saws with the same model number but with different prices, if you check closely you will see that the more expensive one is variable speed, why the same model number, I don’t know ?. :? 

Hope this is of some help.

Chris R.


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## kfenelon (18 Aug 2015)

I have an Excalibur 30 for the past 3 years purchased from Axminster and found the scroll saw to be excellent. I have replaced the blade fixing bolts and tension arm once direct from Axminster at a very reasonable price of around £30 I use the scroll saw at least 5 days a week without any problems to make wood toys. I purchased the 30 at the time thinking you never know when the deeper throat would be required and I could afford the larger model at the time. If I was to purchase knowing what I know now I would have purchased the 21 I trust this helps By the way Axminster tech department are very helpful.


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## Gogsi (18 Aug 2015)

Hi Chris,
Just read your post ChrisR and I was heartened to read the "some cases hundreds of internal cuts, blade threading never a problem". I too have recently watched a few videos of the Excalibur in action (particularly one with Sheila Landry) where she moves at lightning speed from releasing the tension and loosening the blade and going to the next hole. I wonder if any member can point me to a video showing this similar action on a Hegner? Can you also tell me which model you use, enabling you to make so many internal cuts with seeming ease?
Am I correct in believing that, to do so with ease, one needs a model that has both the quick release blade clamps and quick tensioning release? I may have these terms a bit botched up a little.
If I am correct, which models will have these features?
Thanks in advance. It's great knowing that there are friendly folks out there willing to answer these questions.


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## scrimper (19 Aug 2015)

I have to be honest I can never for the life of me understand why people seem to think that blade changing on a Hegner is awkward! It is so quick and simple you can practically do it with your eyes closed. If one does lot's of internal cuts (I do) then with a Hegner and the quick blade clamp you really can remove the blade from the work and refit it thorough the hole for the next cut out with your eyes closed and in about 3 seconds!

My advice would be to go for a Hegner variable speed model, I am 99.9% certain you will not regret it. many times I have read of people who have bought other makes then after a short while swapped it for a Hegner, yet I have never (to date) heard of anyone who has bought a Hegner, regretted it and swapped it for another make.

I have 3 Scroll saws inc a Hegner, no prizes for guessing which one I always use!

Whatever make you go for There are 3 things that I would recommend.

1) buy a variable speed model, yes it costs more but the benefits are enormous and you will soon forget the extra amount you paid. Variable speed is IMHO essential if you are a beginner and it excellent when cutting intricate work or thin materials.

2) Quick blade clamp. for easy quick blade changing, without this it will drive you nuts if you do internal cuts.

3) Quick tension lever. Pointless having a quick blade change if you have to spend ages screwing up a knob to get the blade on tension, plus it's hard on your fingers.

Plus get a saw that uses an induction motor rather than a carbon brush series wound type, Induction motors have a very long maintenance free life, they are extremely quiet and give very little vibration, in contrast series wound motors often offer harsh noisier running the brushes arc and eventually need replacing they vibrate a lot more and the armature and or windings can 'burn out' . An induction motor only has a stator winding and it is very rare to have any problems with them.


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## Bryan Bennett (19 Aug 2015)

Hi Phil a very warm welcome to the forum,you have started a interesting post.I bought my Hegner Multicut 1 single speed over 20 years ago.

Then I did not know that other scroll saws were available,I have replaced the concertina spring at cost of less than £10.I think that the quick blade change can't be bettered by any other machine.

I can see the advantage of variable speed if you can afford the extra cost,I have seen the variable speed one and I still prefer the single speed for the work that I do.


Bryan


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## ChrisR (19 Aug 2015)

Phil.

I think that Scrimper has answered your question, re the quick change blade clamp and the quick tension lever on the Hegner.

The quick change blade clamp used to be an extra, but I think it is now included with a new saw, together with standard clamps.


Don’t be misled by some of the scroll saw videos, as they are run at 1.5 x speed or even 2x speed

Chris R.


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## PeteG (19 Aug 2015)

Hello Phil  I bought a Hegner back in February and use it pretty much every day. I was very tempted by the Excalibur and would have bought one, but with the UK version being made by Axminster it put me off.
I know after speaking to a couple of chaps at Axminster a number of parts have been replaced, but personally I didn't want to take any chances on a machine that I would be relying on on a daily basis. 
Back to the Hegner, and please remember these are only personal views  For me, blade changing is a pain, it's not quick but it doesn't take several minutes, but I find it a little irrevelant to be honest as I'm never in that much of rush, and I doubt many folk would be. A big advantage with Hegners system is doing internal cuts on larger pieces, most of the time you'll only have to undo the quick release knob for the top of the blade, and then feed the blade through the work piece from below. On larger work pieces you remove the block holding the blade from underneath the table, feed the blade through and slide the work piece on to the table so you can replace the blade block underneath, and pop the top of the blade back in to the quick release. I believe with an Excalibur you do this by feeding the blade in from above, but I couldn't comment if this system is limited by the thickness of wood being used.
I have three points with the Hegner which could easily be improved at manufacturing. The table is too narrow, I'm not a lover of using faulse tables, you can't gaurentee what your using is perfectly even/flat, and it becomes a disadvantage when using reverse cut blades. I find the top speed of 1400 is a bit low, an increase would help when cutting thicker hardwoods. You can send it back to Hegner and they'll increase it, but why not just supply it as standard. My biggest bugbear is the insert plate! It would be nice on a machine that cost £900.00 for the insert plate to be level with the table surface. If you look on older models there wasn't an insert plate, and for the life of me I can't see any reason why they changed it.
Saying all that, the Hegner is very accurate, and built to last, which are the two most important things for me. If the table was a little wider, it had a bit more speed, and they did away with the insert plate, I'd say it would be the perfect machine.


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## summertime (19 Aug 2015)

Hi, I have a Hegner multicut 3 and a EX 30 from Axminster.

In my opinion the ex 30 is much more accurate and more enjoyable to use 
The hegner is engineered to last for 100 years but to my mind is old technology ( also have a meddings scroll saw which is even older technology and engineered like a Volvo 
new cars are not engineered to last a lifetime but are much more comfortable and nicer to drive 
Shelagh Landry would not use one if the was better at a reasonable price (Eclipse is one of the best) 
Hegner spare parts are a rip off . alot of people have only tried Hegners 
Do you want pleasure or engineering 
Regards Roy Ames


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## scrimper (19 Aug 2015)

Regarding the post from Roy above about the only thing I agree with is the price of Hegner spares! They are horrendously expensive for what they are.
I don't agree that just because a design is old a new design of machine is necessarily better, some things are made just right and cannot be improved, for example the bicycle frame its basic design has not changed for 100 years because it is still the best design.

Some people like lot's of gadgets and electronics on their machines, personally I prefer simplicity, they are mostly more reliable and can easily be repaired if they do go wrong, I do not want lot's of fancy settings that I never use nor LEDs to tell me when they are in use, I want my saw to be good at cutting fretwork, I want it to be accurate and easy to use, in my opinion the Hegner fulfils these requirements.

The first Hegner saws appeared around 1974 they were deigned in Germany be Helmut Abel and the design has changed little since then, the design was good then and it still is today, how many times have we complained when a new model of something comes out and it does not work as well as an older one!


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## Gogsi (20 Aug 2015)

Hi ChrisR,
Thanks so much for your reply. Much appreciated.
You said, "I have to be honest I can never for the life of me understand why people seem to think that blade changing on a Hegner is awkward! It is so quick and simple you can practically do it with your eyes closed." 
Now the thing is, I'm certain that all of us who are trying to decide what machine to spend our money on haven't used and (at least in my case) don't have any supplier within a couple of hundred miles where we could even try it out or have a close up look in person at the machine.

I would ask you to please have a look at this video of an Excalibur in use:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUC7wutR3A4 

At 0:38 you can quite clearly see how internal cuts are done when doing piercing work. This certainly gives us who have never used a Hegner or an Excalibur a very clear picture of what is involved and I can certainly say that it looks like child's play on this saw,
I would kindly ask if you seasoned users could point us to a video that shows the same operation performed on a Hegner. This would really help us to decide which saw is for us, after of course weighing up all of the other pros and cons and the many valuable comments from forum users like yourselves.
If there are none available, and I have scoured the net and so far not found any, this would be a great opportunity for one of you UKWorkshop pro's to make a very worthwhile contribution to us newbies and to many others who will visit this invaluable forum.
Scrimper, Thanks for your great post. Can I ask you do Hegner's all come with induction motors? If not, can you tell me which do?
Thanks so much to all of you for your superb help.


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## scrimper (20 Aug 2015)

Gogsi":38fgcsms said:


> Hi ChrisR,
> Thanks so much for your reply. Much appreciated.
> You said, "I have to be honest I can never for the life of me understand why people seem to think that blade changing on a Hegner is awkward! It is so quick and simple you can practically do it with your eyes closed."



It was actually me who made the above comment so I will try to answers your questions.

There is a difference between blade changing and reinserting the blade to do internal cuts, I looked at the video you put the link up to and in that video the lady is just reinserting the blade in the top clamp for an internal cut, the process show is practically identical to that on a Hegner i.e. you release the tension on the top clamp with the lever, then twist the knob on the side to release the blade, reinsert it in to the next hole, tighten blade clamp then push back the tension lever on the top arm.

I have not used an Excalibur but looking at the video reinserting the blade looks the same as on the Hegner. (providing you get one with the quick tension lever fitted)

Blade changing is also simple on a Hegner as you can have several blade clamps ready fitted with the blade in the lower clamp and it's simply a matter of releasing the top of the blade (described above) then hooking the clamp out of the bottom arm bracket below the table, you can do this in seconds by feel. What I do is have several different sizes of blades fitted so that I can quickly shift from a thicker one for straight cuts to a much thinner one for delicate work on the same piece. 

Regarding induction motors, as far as I know all Hegner's are fitted them.


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## Gogsi (20 Aug 2015)

Hi Scrimper,
Thanks ever so much firstly for taking your very valuable time to watch the video and for your clear and concise explanation. 

It's very comforting to know that the Hegner's process of re-inserting the blade is almost identical to the Excalibur because that could have been the deal breaker for me. I definitely would be doing a fair amount of internal cutting on the future projects I have in mind and so you have cleared up a big question mark for me. And with that in mind, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a Hegner with a quick tension lever and a quick blade release knob. It'll take all the saving I can do from my very modest pension but I want the very best I can afford ........and that's that : )
It's so good to get such valuable information from you folks on this forum.
Thanks again.


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## Gogsi (20 Aug 2015)

I wonder if by any chance someone can tell me how to determine the age of a Hegner. 
I've found one on ebay and the machine number (Masch.-Nr.) is 939435. 
I've searched on Google with no luck.
Thanks in advance.


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## Cordy (20 Aug 2015)

Hegner on eBay
Ask the owner; all Hegners are clearly date stamped


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## Gogsi (20 Aug 2015)

Thanks Cordy. That sounds like a no brainer : )


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## Bryan Bennett (20 Aug 2015)

Hi Gordon If it any help the machine number on my Mulicut 1 single speed is 926477,which is over 20 yrs old.

Bryan


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## Gogsi (20 Aug 2015)

Hi Bryan
Thanks a lot. Yes that gives me an idea at least, approximately. The one on ebay is 13,000 machines newer than yours.
Let's guess that Hegner makes 50 machines a week. Then this machine on ebay is about 260 weeks or 5 maybe 6 years newer than yours making it approximately 14 years old, made in 2001. But, I'll contact the owner and see what he says.
Thanks again Bryan.


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## scrimper (20 Aug 2015)

Gogsi":20soxjyr said:


> I wonder if by any chance someone can tell me how to determine the age of a Hegner.
> I've found one on ebay and the machine number (Masch.-Nr.) is 939435.
> I've searched on Google with no luck.
> Thanks in advance.



Does it have the quick clamp release lever on the front of the top arm? If not I would *not* consider it if you plan to do lots of cut-outs, one of my recent pieces had over 130 internal cuts, without the quick clamp it would have driven me nuts!

If it has the quick tension clamp and looks in good condition I would not worry too much about it's age, Hegners are built like battleships.


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## scrimper (20 Aug 2015)

FWIW I bought my Hegner in 1999 and by then they were fitting the quick tension lever so if the saw on ebay does not then it is probably much older than 15 years.

As I say above don't buy a Hegner without the quick tension lever IMHO it is a must, the absence of a quick blade clamp is not a problem as one can be fitted retro, the tension arm cannot unless you are prepared to spend a huge amount for a new top arm!


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## Gogsi (20 Aug 2015)

Scrimper,
Yer a gem of a lad an' so ye are !
Thanks so much for that very necessary information.
I have been looking carefully for a machine that does have the tell-tale lever of which you mention and will now not consider any machine unless it does. 
I'm off to have another search on ebay with this in mind : )

By the way, I note that most of you kindly folks who answer my questions have been "thanked" many times but I don't see a button on this page to click which will do the business and give you the thanks you deserve. Can you help me rectify this?


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## scrimper (20 Aug 2015)

Gogsi":1f5bm6us said:


> I wonder if by any chance someone can tell me how to determine the age of a Hegner.
> I've found one on ebay and the machine number (Masch.-Nr.) is 939435.
> I've searched on Google with no luck.
> Thanks in advance.



Just looked at that saw on fleabay, obviously it's your choice but personally I would not buy it especially if you plan to do many internal cuts. My main concern is that it does not have a quick tension release mechanism. if you just want a decent saw for general work and not intricate fretwork and it does not go above around £100 it would be a better buy than one of the cheap new saw available new.

( you can do cut-outs without a quick release lever but it will be frustrating and hard on your fingers!


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## scrimper (20 Aug 2015)

Gogsi":3dl1o6b4 said:


> By the way, I note that most of you kindly folks who answer my questions have been "thanked" many times but I don't see a button on this page to click which will do the business and give you the thanks you deserve. Can you help me rectify this?



Sorry our posts crossed!

You should have a little hand in the bottom right hand corner of the messages (next to the report button) i have just used it to give you some thanks to get you going!


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## Gogsi (20 Aug 2015)

Hi Scrimper,
No I don't plan on buying that one at all, especially after all the helpful info you have given me. That was just one that I could actually see the machine number and I thought that might be an indication of age. So, once again, much appreciate your help and I did find the hand and reciprocated.
"There’s a hand, my trusty fiere
And gie's a hand o’ thine
And we’ll tak a right gude-willy waught,
For auld lang syne" - by Rabbie Burns.


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## ChrisR (21 Aug 2015)

scrimper":2ejt7w99 said:


> Regarding the post from Roy above about the only thing I agree with is the price of Hegner spares! They are horrendously expensive for what they are.
> I don't agree that just because a design is old a new design of machine is necessarily better, some things are made just right and cannot be improved, for example the bicycle frame its basic design has not changed for 100 years because it is still the best design.
> 
> Some people like lot's of gadgets and electronics on their machines, personally I prefer simplicity, they are mostly more reliable and can easily be repaired if they do go wrong, I do not want lot's of fancy settings that I never use nor LEDs to tell me when they are in use, I want my saw to be good at cutting fretwork, I want it to be accurate and easy to use, in my opinion the Hegner fulfils these requirements.
> ...



Plus one, to the above comments.

I just whish that Hegner made computers, I think I would then be able to understand them. :? 

Chris R.


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## ChrisR (21 Aug 2015)

ChrisR":1xqam74m said:


> scrimper":1xqam74m said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding the post from Roy above about the only thing I agree with is the price of Hegner spares! They are horrendously expensive for what they are.
> ...


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## Redbythesea (22 Aug 2015)

Hi All 

Firstly, may I thank you all for contributing and the wonderful advice given. I am aware a lot of this is opinion but it is opinion based on the use of the machine and your knowledge of the subject - I'm a complete newbie (or numbskull..) 

I would like to mention ChrisR, Scrimper, PeteG and Gogsi for all your help. Gogsi because you were asking the same questions I was thinking. I beleived I confused matters by questioning the blade change whereas I was trying to get information re blade threading! PeteG and ChrisR were kind enough to answer that - the Hegner website have short videos but they appear all the same for all machines (nearly) and a little more time on explaining the blade thread would be useful - I believe Gogsi had the same problem as I had of being unable to find a video etc - Youtube have loads on the Ex21 etc but virtually nothing on Hegner...maybe it's word of mouth recommodation and they don't need to advertise due to their reputation but I think Hegner are missing a trick. 

Scrimper's advice re the induction motor, quick release clamps, quick tension lever and variable speed was invaluable has all been backed up by other members etc. 

When I became enthused to purchase a scroll saw I was amazed at the variety of makers and models and how everyone's opinions differed - there are so many to choose from - I note B&Q (for English readers) are selling one for £26!!!!

Anyways just wanted to say thank you again for all your great help - I'm 95% made my mind up which one to buy...

Take care all and no doubt I will be asking questions again.

Have a lovely weekend.

Phil


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## AES (23 Aug 2015)

Hullo Redbythe sea. Welcome to the Forum, and to scroll sawing. Having been away from the forum for a while I've only just seen your post.

About 3 or 4 months ago I was facing exactly the same choice as you and after some tests I posted my own conclusions. I am definitely NOT an expert, especially not when compared to many of the members here, but my post in early June did seem to raise some interest and approval from members, so here's a link if you want to check it out:

biting-the-bullet-ex-21-t89722.html

As you'll see, in the end I opted for the Excali, and although it's not a 100% perfect tool (what is?), and I'm also sure that the Hegner would in many respects be just as good, I'm actually very pleased with my choice.

As many members here have commented in the past, when choosing any tool an awful lot depends on exactly what you want to do with it, and in my case, perhaps because lots of the stuff I do (so far) is a bit out of the general scroll sawing "arts & crafts main stream", for me the angled head (rather than the angled table) was a decisive factor for the Excali.

Also, I note that as in response to my own post, Scrimper has defended the blade changing characteristics of the Hegner here. During my own direct comparison of the two I found the Excali to be a bit easier/more immediately intuitive - not saying that the Hegner blade changing is bad, but I am saying that I simply found the Excali was a bit easier/quicker to pick up straight away than the Hegner was. But that's just me. As always," yer pays yer money and takes yer choice".

Again it probably depends on exactly what you want to do with your saw, but personally I've now found a foot switch to be an essential add-on. I had problems sourcing the "correct" switch for the Excali, but if you do go that route yourself a quick search here should pull up all the relevant details for the Excali because I posted all the info here.

Whatever your final choice it seems pretty clear to me that with either Hegner or Excali you won't go wrong, and as I'm sure you've already heard, you'll find scrolling both addictive and relaxing - just like something else I know  

Again welcome, and good luck whatever you choose.

Hope the above and the link help.

Krgds
AES


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