# Short grain



## colincjwhite (18 Apr 2022)

I have been asked to make a pedestal table with a 900mm top and four legs for base. Does anyone have an idea on best way to make the legs. They will be as per the photo. I was a bit concerned about the short grain!


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## Sgian Dubh (18 Apr 2022)

What you see in the image is pretty much the standard compromise in grain orientation that's been used for at least a couple of centuries. It's a risk, but you either take it, or you don't. I've had to repair a fair few over the decades because they do sometimes fail. As to how to make the shape, all hand tools is an option, or you can go the machine plus hand tool route which includes planers, rip saws, bandsaws, jigs and spindle moulder or router route, all pretty standard stuff.

You could increase the strength by going the laminated route where the laminations follow the arc which eliminates short grain in the arc. To allow for the taper in the thickness from the top of the leg to the toe you would need to incorporate at least two tapered laminates (e.g., one each on the two outside parts of the arc) to avoid cutting through any laminates which would expose a transverse glue line(s) on the inside and outside of the arc.

Alternatively, you could make the leg as seen in the photograph with the visible short grain at the extremities. After it's made you then rout a deep groove on the outside of the arc (the bottom face when in place) and fill the groove with glued in pieces where the grain direction of the infill pieces are at some variation, about 15 -20 degrees, to the direction of the visible grain at the sides of the leg. This groove and infill pieces would most matter at both ends of the arc where the grain is shortest. Slainte.


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## Stigmorgan (18 Apr 2022)

Unless the grain needs to look like that would it not be stronger if you steamed and bent the pieces to shape?


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## colincjwhite (18 Apr 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> What you see in the image is pretty much the standard compromise in grain orientation that's been used for at least a couple of centuries. It's a risk, but you either take it, or you don't. I've had to repair a fair few over the decades because they do sometimes fail. As to how to make the shape, all hand tools is an option, or you can go the machine plus hand tool route which includes planers, rip saws, bandsaws, jigs and spindle moulder or router route, all pretty standard stuff.
> 
> You could increase the strength by going the laminated route where the laminations follow the arc which eliminates short grain in the arc. To allow for the taper in the thickness from the top of the leg to the toe you would need to incorporate at least two tapered laminates (one each on the two outside parts of the arc) to avoid cutting through any laminates which would expose a transverse glue line(s) on the inside and outside of the arc.
> 
> Alternatively, you could make the leg as seen in the photograph with the visible short grain at the extremities. After it's made you then rout a deep groove on the outside of the arc (the bottom face when in place) and fill the groove with glued in pieces where the grain direction of the infill pieces are at some variation, about 15 -20 degrees, to the direction of the visible grain at the sides of the leg. This groove and infill pieces would most matter at both ends of the arc where the grain is shortest. Slainte.


Thanks for the reply!
I did think maybe a screw up through the under side into the short grain. Not to dissimilar to your idea of a groove. The only other way would be ply lipped and veneered. 
solid would be easiest but just didn’t want it to fail.
Will have to give it some more thought!
Thanks again for input.

colin


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## Jacob (18 Apr 2022)

colincjwhite said:


> I have been asked to make a pedestal table with a 900mm top and four legs for base. Does anyone have an idea on best way to make the legs. They will be as per the photo. I was a bit concerned about the short grain!


3 legs is better - one less to make and inherently stable. 3 is standard for trad round tables but 4 may be easier to design and join.


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## Hand Plane (18 Apr 2022)

I agree with Sgian Dubh. I attach a couple of photographs for a Georgian table with the way it was mended many years ago. I have removed the metal plate and repaired it by using a couple of long dowels from the underside. Also attached is a part of a report I did many years ago for the assessment and repair of another table (different orientation of grain) but same out come. If I was making from new, I would go with Sgian Dubh's suggestion of routing and infill pieces


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## Jacob (18 Apr 2022)

Hand Plane said:


> I agree with Sgian Dubh. I attach a couple of photographs for a Georgian table with the way it was mended many years ago. I have removed the metal plate and repaired it by using a couple of long dowels from the underside. Also attached is a part of a report I did many years ago for the assessment and repair of another table (different orientation of grain) but same out come. If I was making from new, I would go with Sgian Dubh's suggestion of routing and infill piecesView attachment 133981
> View attachment 133979
> View attachment 133980


It's very short short grain - I would have put the metal plate back!
Metal plates were often there from new, sometimes tucked away out of sight in tidy housings


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## Inspector (18 Apr 2022)

Welcome to the forum colincjwhite.

If you look carefully at the picture you posted the leg furthest away has an inlet piece of wood or metal to reinforce it so that maker knows it is potentially week.

As suggested laminating with thin strips is the strongest solution and if the strips are kept in the same order as when cut the grain/figure will be least obvious when glued. If the pedestal is going to be like the one in the picture then incorporating the leg into the vertical as one and then glueing the four together will be the strongest and cleanest looking. If a modern piece a single or pair of contrasting layers in the laminations could make for a cool looking "racing stripe", complimentary to the edge banding.  

Pete


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## CStanford (30 Apr 2022)

I saw one once that appeared to have a piece of steel inlaid into each leg, underneath of course. Looked to be an 1/8" thick and epoxied in - it ran the whole length to just short of the toe by about a quarter inch. Not an external plate but set in a groove in the legs. I have no idea how deep the groove was as the legs were completely intact -- so these did their job!


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