# Victor Socket Chisels or Kirschen 1101 Bevel Edge Chisels?



## Nads

I am about to start a HND in Furniture Studies at Uni in September and have just been given my final tool list, but as I have been doing woodwork for about a year now I already have most of the stuff on the list, if not better stuff, thanks to the great advise from this forum. However one think I haven’t really purchased was a good set of chisels, at the moment I’m just using a cheap set of Stanley’s. This is mainly because I couldn't really decide which ones to get, I’ve already got some Sorby mortice chisels which I really happy with, but a lot of you guys don’t really seem to rate there bevel edge chisels :? . The tool list gives us 2 options the ‘Kirschen 1101 set @£60’ which our tutor says are good or the ‘Victor Bevel Edge Socket Chisel Set @ £150’, which our tutor describes as the ‘Rolls Royce’ of chisel sets :? . Since I already have most of the stuff on the list I can afford either set (thanks to my August work bonus  ) but was just wondering if I could have people’s thoughts on my options. Since I one day want this to be my career, I have been buying the best tools I can afford, but £150 for Axminster’s Victor Chisels seems a bit steep, I don’t mind spending the money if I thought they were worth it? Does anyone own a set or know much about them?

Thanks Guys :wink: 

Nads
:wink:


----------



## Alf

Nads":1k579uf3 said:


> The tool list gives us 2 options the ‘Kirschen 1101 set @£60’ which our tutor says are good


Lots of other folks do too. I'd suggest going to Dieter Schmid and getting the unpolished ones to cut down the back flattening horror a bit, rather than the polished from Axminster.



Nads":1k579uf3 said:


> or the ‘Victor Bevel Edge Socket Chisel Set @ £150’


Gosh, really? We had some damning discussion about the pictures of them when they came out I remember, but I don't know if anyone's tried them or seen them. To be honest, for that money, I think I'd be thinking I might as well get the LNs with the harder-wearing hornbeam handles and (going by the original pictures of the Victors anyway) much finer beveled edges.

Well actually I'd be saying "I don't want A2 at all", but that's another discussion. 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Nads

Yeah Alf I was very surprised to see the victor chisels on the list too? I read the discussions on the forum about victor range too, and agreed that £150 seemed steep, I was just wondering if anyone know any more!? :? 

I must omit going on appearances alone I don’t really like the look of the Kirscen set but then appearance isn’t everything. What might be my other options? Ashly Iles chisels seem to get very mixed reviews, I’m not sure I want to take the chance with them. And although I like my Sorby mortice chisels they have had mixed reviews too? And although I really like the look of the LN chisels, and I’m sure they are great I not sure I really ready for a set of 200 pound chisels? Why haven’t Vertias made any yet, I seem to be always pleased with thier products?! :wink: 


Anyone got any views?! I'm a bit confused :?


----------



## Alf

Nads":2k5en4sy said:


> I must omit going on appearances alone I don’t really like the look of the Kirscen set but then appearance isn’t everything.


Well to be honest neither do I. I'd be tempted to ditch the handles right away and make some nice ones without those tacky steel hoops (rather too "Made in China" for my taste). Too bad they don't seem to be available handleless as well as unpolished.



Nads":2k5en4sy said:


> What might be my other options? Ashly Iles chisels seem to get very mixed reviews, I’m not sure I want to take the chance with them.


Yeah, reading the 'Murrican fora they're a "no brainer", but rather a different story over here it seems. Bit like Sorby really - do you feel lucky?

How d'you feel about Japanese? If you like them, they're probably the best bet for economy and quality. Alternatively there's the option to turn your back on new and look for old ones, especially if you don't mind not having a "set" _per se_  Mind you in all likelihood there'd be a certain amount of work involved getting them fettled up, but that seems to be the case with a lot of new ones too and at least this way there's a good chance you'll get some decent steel. Assuming no-one's drawn the temper - always a risk with the old ones.

Having said which a quick goof about the usual suspects reveal chisels have got expensive since I last looked. :shock: Which is odd, 'cos I couldn't shift mine when I tried. 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## ike

Hi Nads,

Maybe worth a look at Ashley Isles chisels? There's been some discussion here on past quality issues (mine included), which may have been transient anyway. I have a set of 10 that cost me £117 from the factory. Hold their edge well and nice handles to boot. The finish* is not to everyones idea of perfection but they don't need much flattening and do the business intended.

Alfs' point about buying old noted but id you did prefer to go new, *they are truly 'hand' made by highly skilled _British_ craftsman. :wink: 

cheers,

Ike


----------



## David C

If buying the horrible handled chisels be sure to get the unpolished set. 

Good Japanese chisels, are going to cost about £30 each and upwards. Beware cheap ones!

The Victor set have short blades which I find much more difficult to prepare, and you have a lifetime of use ahead of you!.

If spending money I would get L-N, which have the advantage of the change to long handle option. Also not as brittle as Japanese.

Ashley Iles are one of the only other chisel sets with delicate edges. plain handles infinitely preferable to the blister raising octagonal pattern. This is more or less quoted from the great Jim Kingshott.

David,


----------



## Philly

Nads
I've had a look at the Victor chisels. Disappointing. For that much money you want a GOOD chisel and thought they were a bit clunky. Bevels were very coarse, to.
As Mr. C says, the L-N chisels are very nice. Just buy the sizes you need and they work out a lot less than £200-especially if you don't buy the leather roll. 
Hope this helps
Philly


----------



## paulm

Alf,

If you have some spare secondhand chisels available :shock: :lol: might be worth putting a list and prices up on the forum again ?

Might even be interested myself, but no promises !

Cheers, Paul.


----------



## Alf

Oh dear, I'm going to query the cannon-firing, surfer dude again - it's such a bad habit I have. 



David C":41p9iym2 said:


> Good Japanese chisels, are going to cost about £30 each and upwards. Beware cheap ones!


Is that the basic Oire Nome type, Mr C? 'Cos I always thought the big benefit of the Japanese chisels was the cheaper ones were so much better than the equivalently priced Western ones? Putting it another way, what advantage does £30 give over £15? The cheap ones seemed pretty good to me, during my brief flirtation with them.



David C":41p9iym2 said:


> If spending money I would get L-N, which have the advantage of the change to long handle option.


I still don't get that, ya know. I mean how can a chisel that needs about a 30°+ bevel as the minimum be worth setting up as a parer? Oh well, different strokes...



David C":41p9iym2 said:


> plain handles infinitely preferable to the blister raising octagonal pattern. This is more or less quoted from the great Jim Kingshott.


Now Jim Kingshott had many laudable features, but not being dogmatic didn't seem to be one of them... :lol: Am I to read this as he found them blister inducing and you've just taken his word for it? 'Cos I'd have thought a tool fettler _par excellence_ such as yourself would have found the easy answer to that. viz: Sandpaper.  I used to think the same thing (probably down on record somewhere saying so), until I actually tried a good one and the scales fell from my eyes. Perhaps I should have wondered to myself earlier if the design's no good why was it the most expensive option in days of yore, put on the best chisels and gouges, and still surviving today? 

Chisel, well as it happens I'm kind of in mid fettle of them - as no-one seemed to see their potential I decided I'd have to reveal it first and put up the price accordingly. :wink: The danger is I'll then not want to part with them at all, but we'll see. Mind you, I was fully intending to rehandle with Best London Pattern Octagonal handles, but I might need to do a bit of convincing of folks about the wisdom of that now... :roll:

Cheers, Alf


----------



## bugbear

Alf":2n7pjj2t said:


> Nads":2n7pjj2t said:
> 
> 
> 
> The tool list gives us 2 options the ‘Kirschen 1101 set @£60’ which our tutor says are good
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of other folks do too. I'd suggest going to Dieter Schmid and getting the unpolished ones to cut down the back flattening horror a bit, rather than the polished from Axminster.
Click to expand...


Seconded.

http://www.fine-tools.com/stemmb.htm

82.50 euros plus 9 shipping , 91.5 euros = 65 quid. About the same as APTC (who don't do the unpolished AFAIK)

BugBear


----------



## Adam

I've got the "polished" two cherries set and like them. They seem to stay very sharp, and despite the edges being slightly rounded when they buff a finish onto them, its never actually limited my woodworking. Without doubt, my skill is still behind the small radius you see, especially it you hold the chisel at a slight angle.

I can agree on the handles though, they really aren't anything special. I've taken some lovely fine end grain shavings with them.

Adam


----------



## woodbloke

F&C did a very comprehensive test of 70 different chisel (Issue 79) and graded them from * very poor, thru' to ***** top notch. The Kirschen 'Two Cherries' was best on test (5*), Ray Isles socket chisels (Old Tool Store) also 5*, Ashley Isles 41/2*, Sorby 4* as well as Phiel 4*, best all rounders with plastic handles :shock: were the Bahco set (orange handle) 4*. As the man said..... 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'...I think - Rob


----------



## Mirboo

Hi Nads,

I can't comment on the Victor or the Kirschen chisels but I do have a set of Lie-Nielsen chisels which I like a lot. As Philly suggested, if you don't want to spend the money for an entire set straight away you could build up a set a few at a time.



Alf":25s5hn85 said:


> Well actually I'd be saying "I don't want A2 at all", but that's another discussion.



Alf,

Can I ask what it is that turns you off A2? I know you've said "that's another discussion" but here is as good a place as any....., isn't it? I have read elsewhere that A2 can be susceptible to chipping, although I haven't experienced this myself. Is that the problem? :-k


Adam,

I like the tractor in your avatar. Is it the diesel Fergie 35? The tractor I first learnt to drive when I was a kid was a red diesel Massey Ferguson 35 that looked just like the one in your avatar. It looks like yours in in better nick than the one we had on our farm though.


----------



## Adam

Mirboo":5vxrdusq said:


> Adam, I like the tractor in your avatar. Is it the diesel Fergie 35? The tractor I first learnt to drive when I was a kid was a red diesel Massey Ferguson 35 that looked just like the one in your avatar. It looks like yours in in better nick than the one we had on our farm though.



Sorry, dive in without disturbing the topic. But its about to go elsewhere to the merits of A2 shortly so.... heres a better picture.... https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 3&start=30

See above, yes, its a 35. Recently restored. Adam


----------



## Alf

Mirboo":urg1ly7a said:


> Can I ask what it is that turns you off A2? I know you've said "that's another discussion" but here is as good a place as any....., isn't it? I have read elsewhere that A2 can be susceptible to chipping, although I haven't experienced this myself. Is that the problem? :-k


Well Ian, it's a number of reasons really. Generally I just find my use doesn't justify the long term edge holding of A2 and I'd sooner have something I can sharpen quicker, albeit more often. The quicker the edge is to fettle, the less time I have to screw it up :wink: Also I like using oil stones and A2 and oil stones really aren't a particularly happy combination. Specifically with regard to chisels, the A2 simply doesn't hold up at all below a bevel of about 30+°. (I've got some more accurate observations on it somewhere, but not handy just now) Anyway that's not such an issue for chopping, but for paring I like the lowest bevel angle I can get away with - the lower the angle, the less force I need, the more controlled the cut. A2 limits my options in that regard right away and that's just plain annoying. I suppose my main feeling is that, at the price, the LNs should be a more all round chisel than I think the A2 makes them. To me they're just a chopping chisel, so far pretty much exclusively used for dovetailing. Not to say there isn't a place for A2 chisels; if I was using exotics all the time, or some of that cast iron you Aussies call wood :wink: then I think it makes a ton more sense. But for me, and I'd hazard a guess the majority of buyers, rather less exotic O1 would be a bit more versatile.

Hmm, ran off with the ball a bit there, didn't I? Sorry 'bout that. :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Mirboo

Woodbloke's post above reminded me that the magazine "Australian Wood Review" did a chisel review back in 2004. Victor chisels were not included in the review but Kirschen and Lie-Nielsen chisels were. I posted a run-down of the review on the Australian Woodwork Forums in response to someone who was asking for advice about chisels. Here is a link to that thread.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=25318


P.S. Thanks Adam for the tractor link.


----------



## Alf

Adam":cnyxydsz said:


> Sorry, dive in without disturbing the topic. But its about to go elsewhere to the merits of A2 shortly so....


----------



## Mirboo

Thanks Alf for the reply about A2. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I haven't had a problem with my A2 chisles yet, but I haven't had them all that long either. 8-[ So far I have used them more for chopping than paring. Maybe I will have a problem down the track when I'm chopping into a chunk of cast iron eucalypt. [-o<


----------



## David C

AHOY! Broadside salvo of grape shot coming........

Cheap Japanese chisels are horrible. They are badly ground, badly shaped, often crooked with nasty hoops, and can take forever to prepare.

My extensive tests and use on L-N A2 cryo chisels lead me to exactly the same conclusion as the "Australian Wood Review" test which Mirboo kindly posted.

Alf's difficulty with A2 seems directly related to her chosen sharpening method. While tougher and taking a little longer to grind on my Tormek, the sharpening of A2 takes me about three strokes more. The whole resharpening process taking no more than 4 minutes.

I have pared hardwoods of all kinds, with a 32 degree angle, for many years, using both Japanese and A2. This works perfectly well if the edge is SHARP.

Jim Kingshott's quote is his! There is a salutory story to go with it for any who care to read it.
Jim was one of the last of the traditional, apprentice trained cabinetmakers. He had vast experience and evidently an open mind, as demonstrated by his conversion to Japanese tools and WATERSTONES. He was extremely helpful and kind to me when I rang up to discuss obscure technical issues. We are unlikely to ever see a man of his depth of experience and knowledge again.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Shady

Just as an aside, for Nads, actually Veritas/Lee-Valley _do_ have an 'own brand' set of chisels:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=30028&cat=1,41504,43500&ap=1

But I suspect that the 'purely functional' handles may well leave you cold... :wink:


----------



## Mirboo

We say no to plastic handles.






Actually, given the usual stuff that Lee Valley produce they probably aren't bad chisels. I'd be interested to hear from anybody who has used them.


----------



## bugbear

David C":1mc9fkl6 said:


> Jim Kingshott's quote is his! There is a salutory story to go with it for any who care to read it.
> Jim was one of the last of the traditional, apprentice trained cabinetmakers. He had vast experience and evidently an open mind, as demonstrated by his conversion to Japanese tools and WATERSTONES. He was extremely helpful and kind to me when I rang up to discuss obscure technical issues. We are unlikely to ever see a man of his depth of experience and knowledge again.
> 
> David Charlesworth



Indeed. My only "issue" with Mr Kingshott was his belief that the best work can only be done with the best tools. I feel his over-emphasis on this (and his habit of illustrating technical articles on tools with super-exotic examples from his own collection) was needlessly off putting.

In his planing video (for example) he appears to say the "proper" accurate jointing can only be done with a "british pattern" plane, and proceeds to use his (legendary in some circles) self made 30" infill jointer...

For "most of us" the tools are not the limiting factor, and (as Ian Kirby has shown) rather fine work can be done with rather ordinary tools - properly prepared and used.

BugBear


----------



## Alf

David C":2gjpm3vz said:


> AHOY! Broadside salvo of grape shot coming........


I believe the traditional cry at this point is "For what we are about to receive..." 8-[]



David C":2gjpm3vz said:


> Cheap Japanese chisels are horrible. They are badly ground, badly shaped, often crooked with nasty hoops, and can take forever to prepare.


I must have got lucky then :? That's probably a first. :lol:



David C":2gjpm3vz said:


> My extensive tests and use on L-N A2 cryo chisels lead me to exactly the same conclusion as the "Australian Wood Review" test which Mirboo kindly posted.


Well I like 'em, but for reasons other than the steel :lol:



David C":2gjpm3vz said:


> Alf's difficulty with A2 seems directly related to her chosen sharpening method. While tougher and taking a little longer to grind on my Tormek, the sharpening of A2 takes me about three strokes more. The whole resharpening process taking no more than 4 minutes.


Yeah, but David they were expensive enough without having to buy a Tormek and set up with waterstones - it's _A2's_ difficulty with my sharpening set up, s'what you mean. :wink:



David C":2gjpm3vz said:


> I have pared hardwoods of all kinds, with a 32 degree angle, for many years, using both Japanese and A2. This works perfectly well if the edge is SHARP.


Please, sir, I too can do so with a 32 degree angle ('cos oil stones can sharpen stuff - honest). But it's more efficient to use the lowest bevel possible, isn't it? I mean, there's quite a long-standing tradition of lower angles for paring.



David C":2gjpm3vz said:


> Jim Kingshott's quote is his! There is a salutory story to go with it for any who care to read it.


_Où est-il?_ I'm not familiar with it off hand. I had a look in "The Workshop" and "Making and Modifying Woodworking Tools" but not a sausage. In fact an octaganol handle is one of the patterns shown in "Making and Modifying" to try out and see what suits the reader. But that wasn't really what I asked though; what's _your_ own experience with them? It's not a dig (although potentially it might sound like it) but rather that your opinion carries considerable weight so I want to know exactly what I futilely going in to bat against 



David C":2gjpm3vz said:


> Jim was one of the last of the traditional, apprentice trained cabinetmakers. He had vast experience and evidently an open mind, as demonstrated by his conversion to Japanese tools and WATERSTONES. He was extremely helpful and kind to me when I rang up to discuss obscure technical issues. We are unlikely to ever see a man of his depth of experience and knowledge again.


Hey, if there's a Kingshott Appreciation Society where do I sign up? But it just doesn't come naturally to me to take _everything_ one Authority says as gospel truth without question. Ha hum, you may have noticed that...  Even Authorities are human and have their own preferences. On the other hand, once I _am_ convinced about a certain thing I tend defend it to the hilt. Still waiting to be convinced I really need a woodie, Bailey and Infill jointer to joint an edge mind you... :lol:

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Alf

Shady":3rswfc4d said:


> Just as an aside, for Nads, actually Veritas/Lee-Valley _do_ have an 'own brand' set of chisels:
> 
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=30028&cat=1,41504,43500&ap=1
> 
> But I suspect that the 'purely functional' handles may well leave you cold... :wink:


If the steel's any good you can always rehandle them. We have the technology. viz: Wood. 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Shady

> If the steel's any good you can always rehandle them. We have the technology. viz: Wood.



Actually, I'm something of a heretic with regard to chisels. As stated elsewhere, one of my favourite purchases was a set of these:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/3/product-Axminster-Euro-Bevel-Edge-Chisels-21818.htm

Totally utilitarian, totally effective for me. I'd actually rate those Lee Valleys as pretty functional looking: those handles will take some serious (ahem) hammering, should it be required...  

I've always worried more about the point made in that link of yours, Mirboo:

"the best chisel is a sharp chisel"... So long as they're not actually unusable in terms of a convex back, or untempered steel, I just can't see the need to go expensive. Don't all abuse me at once - I'm sure the nice ones are super, but I've never felt the need to buy them...


----------



## Colin C

Shady":1dw8gavr said:


> "the best chisel is a sharp chisel"... So long as they're not actually unusable in terms of a convex back, or untempered steel, I just can't see the need to go expensive. Don't all abuse me at once - I'm sure the nice ones are super, but I've never felt the need to buy them...
Click to expand...


I have to agree with Shady on this, as long as it holds a good egde and useable, that is fine for me ( most of mine or old Marples and do me fine ) 8-[ 
I will get my coat


----------



## Colin C

I also have some plastic handled stanleys and use them for site work 8-[ :-$


----------



## Adam

Colin C":yw6snij1 said:


> I also have some plastic handled stanleys and use them for site work 8-[ :-$



I use some plastic handled ones for opening tins of paint. I save my manky screwdrivers for stirring them once open.   :? :shock: 

Oh dear, I'd better go and hid in the bunker.

Adam


----------



## Colin C

My stanleys are the old black handled ones and hold a very good edge.


----------



## Shady

> My stanleys are the old black handled ones and hold a very good edge.



Yup - I've got some of them - made a lovely little skew chisel out of one, with 5 minutes work on a wet grinder. Proper 'user' tools, they are.


----------



## Paul Chapman

I've always used Marples chisels with plastic handles :shock: Some blue ones that I've had for about 30 years and some green ones that I bought more recently. I'd like some nicer-looking wooden handled ones but the plastic ones have always done what I want them to do, so I've never been able to justify to myself the cost of getting "better" ones :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Alf

Coo, this is right up there with the suggestion of having an oak-effect plastic front door. :roll: :lol: 

Here's this thing again, that somehow extra Brownie points are earned for using not particularly pleasant tools, which I don't honestly understand. If you're doing it for a living, why make your working conditions unpleasant? And if it's a hobby, well that's even dafter. Unless your hobby is actually "making do" or "being a martyr" :wink: , which I can sort of understand. Plastic handled chisels are ideal for whacking with a hammer on site. i.e. Abuse. But why waste time making one into a skew chisel if you're not also going to take the time to give it a nice handle? Isn't liking wood kind of a given if you're a woodworker?

Oh well, probably just me.

Cheers, Alf

Who has turned a black-handled Stanley chisel into a skew chisel - and promptly made a wooden handle for it. Makes hammer handles relatively less futile as an exercise I s'pose... :lol:


----------



## Colin C

I have tosay that I have found the blue handle marples very unpleasant to use as there have square handles :? 

I think you have been lucky as most people I know that have used them have had trouble with them holding an edge.

I dont think you have to spend lots of money to get a good set of chisels as one of the wookwork mags found out
http://www.itslondon.co.uk/pd_PROALUCHI ... umCase.htm
One of the mags gave them 5 out 5 but I would guess they are not to ever ones taste, for some one starting it might well be a good place to start  
( Be gentle with me 8-[ )


----------



## Mirboo

I must admit that some of my chisels have plastic handles.



I've got a couple of plastic handled Bahco's (the red ones) that I turned into skew chisels, an old Sandvick and a few old Stanleys that have plastic handles.


----------



## MikeW

Shady":c3qlv15n said:


> Just as an aside, for Nads, actually Veritas/Lee-Valley _do_ have an 'own brand' set of chisels:
> 
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=30028&cat=1,41504,43500&ap=1
> 
> But I suspect that the 'purely functional' handles may well leave you cold... :wink:


Yep, got some:






They were a functional replacement to my stolen chisels. And they were a bit less expensive when I bought them compared to today. Today, I would just purchase the AIs--but with the understanding that there could be issues. Here in the US there seems to be less issues...

As I don't use bench chisels as much as perhaps most people, the handles have never bothered me. If I were to bother, I like the shape and size so would probably replicate them in general.

Take care, Mike


----------



## Paul Chapman

Well, if plastic chisel handles are good enough for MikeW (he of the beautiful wooden saw handles), then I don't feel so bad about mine :wink: :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Alf

Burn the Heretic! (Hi, Mike :mrgreen: )


----------



## Shady

> Here's this thing again, that somehow extra Brownie points are earned for using not particularly pleasant tools, which I don't honestly understand. If you're doing it for a living, why make your working conditions unpleasant? And if it's a hobby, well that's even dafter. Unless your hobby is actually "making do" or "being a martyr" Wink , which I can sort of understand. Plastic handled chisels are ideal for whacking with a hammer on site. i.e. Abuse. But why waste time making one into a skew chisel if you're not also going to take the time to give it a nice handle? Isn't liking wood kind of a given if you're a woodworker?



You're missing the point Alf: for some of us, there's a real pleasure to be had from knowing that a tool is as capable as it needs to be, and needs minimal maintenance (other than the blade...). It becomes a sort of trusted old friend, that's appreciated for the way in which it fulfills its role with no added bells or whistles... 'Form follows function' and all that. It's like my favourite mini-maglite torch: after 18 years in my pocket, and 3 wars, it's lost almost all the black anodising and it's got dents eveywhere - but I know it'll work, and I take real pleasure from using something that's been with me for a while, and does 'just what it says on the tin'. (nb - if you use maglites, a lick of vaseline on the 'o' ring once a year keeps it sweet for ever...) 

There's a case to be made that a butyl or plastic handle is more functional than a wooden one: it'll never rot, or develop splits, and can be wellied with a mallet or hammer without mushrooming... It won't come loose with changes in humidity. So it's not about using 'not particularly pleasant' tools for me - it's about using funtional tools that do what they should, with no claims to anything else. And, of course, if the handles do shatter or whatever, I'll bang a wooden one on, and use it for another few years.

I also have a slight sneaking sort of puritan ethic that creeps up on me every so often: if I can produce work at the standard I want with 'bog-standard' stuff, there's a small voice that makes me feel guilty when I spend frivolous money to get the same effect. Not consistent - but honest.. :wink:


----------



## Alf

Shady":1sljmnz1 said:


> I also have a slight sneaking sort of puritan ethic that creeps up on me every so often


Ah hah! There's a depressing tendency to that in my family - I fight it daily. 

Now see I did say:


The words wot I":1sljmnz1 said:


> Plastic handled chisels are ideal for whacking with a hammer on site. i.e. Abuse.


Which is pretty much what you're saying there. Wooden handles don't need extra maintenance or special care if used in the right enviroment for the job they were intended for, but yes, they do respond negatively to big blokes wiv 'ammers.  

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Paul Chapman

Alf":39vv76l7 said:


> Burn the Heretic! (Hi, Mike :mrgreen: )



Bet those handles are burn-proof as well as split-proof :wink: 

Paul


----------



## David C

I have supplied my best advice to the question asked.

It is not amusing to have this quoted back, sentence by sentence.......................................................................................}.

It remains my considered, best advice.

Bugbear,

I for one am quite happy to forgive Jim his foible, largely exhibited after his official retirement. He was a wonderful craftsman, taught hundreds? of apprentices, and had an unrivalled breadth and depth of knowledge. 

I did some of my best work in the seventies, with rubbish tools. It was a serious struggle. Today we are very fortunate, due to the wonderful tools which are now available, also including some of the excellent old tools which one may be lucky enough to find. Fighting with poor tools is no longer necessary. A good craftsman will make a tool from mild steel and make it work but beginners need something that works, without too much fuss.

ps There used to be some Sandvik plastic handled chisels with excellent steel & hardness. 1970's plastic handled Stanleys were not bad either. Nice delicate edges on the bevel edged bench chisels.


----------



## Ian Dalziel

David C":ac1dbcx9 said:


> I have supplied my best advice to the question asked.
> 
> It is not amusing to have this quoted back, sentence by sentence.......................................................................................}.
> 
> It remains my considered, best advice.



sorry about quoting you!!!!

theres a book running on just how much longer you'll last here...youve done extremely well so far and your advice is appreciated by most

Ian


----------



## deirdre

I love that David C is here.

Tonight, I made my first dado where I'd used a saw on the sides and chiseled out the middle. It wasn't as bad as I was expecting (though it's not a work of art, to be sure). The plastic-handled Marples chisel did a creditable job.


----------



## Alf

Re: Quoting :arrow: Mr Charlesworth

Sorry, it just helps me keep track of what I'm responding to and saves me typing an explanation of the point I'm referring to. In short it saves misunderstanding. But it's not a great writing style, albeit slightly less ponderous than this...

All else I have to say I'll confine to a private email.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## MikeW

Alf":kq4y5h2v said:


> Burn the Heretic! (Hi, Mike :mrgreen: )


Ha, did I ever mention the registrar at the Bible College I went to wanted to do just that?

Mr. C--Some of the better chisels I had used up to then were black plastic handled Sandviks. The only one which survived the theft of many of my tools was rehandled last year in Honduran Rosewood.

I just used it yesterday and today to chisel through the metal strapping on a couple crates :lol: Hardly dulled...

If I used my bench chisels for more tasks than I do, I would certainly rehandle them. But they do take a whacking.

The Butcher firmers get far more use. The handles have slowly gotten tired of being struck and replaced over time with a longish handle for the amount of blade they have left, but are comfortable to use.







There, am I redeemed? :wink:


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## bugbear

David C":ou9nw7au said:


> I did some of my best work in the seventies, with rubbish tools. It was a serious struggle. Today we are very fortunate, due to the wonderful tools which are now available, also including some of the excellent old tools which one may be lucky enough to find. Fighting with poor tools is no longer necessary. A good craftsman will make a tool from mild steel and make it work but beginners need something that works, without too much fuss.



Heartily agreed. It was Jim's pursuit of the absolute best tools that irked me. 

I'm all in favour of "good" tools.  

BugBear


----------



## Evergreen

How have I missed this thread? What larks! 

Yes, I'm a plastic handled chisel fan too. I've got a set of Stanley 5001s bought in the 1970s, and as Mr C has said, they're good. No, they're _very_ good - flat backs, decent steel and handles graduated to the size of the blade. Ah, but I've also got some wooden handled chisels that I've inherited from my grandad (joiner for over 50 years) and others that I've found in flea markets. They're good too but I have to say that not all old chisels hold their edge - I soon got rid of the ones that didn't. 



Shady":2zos5xut said:


> I also have a slight sneaking sort of puritan ethic that creeps up on me every so often: if I can produce work at the standard I want with 'bog-standard' stuff, there's a small voice that makes me feel guilty when I spend frivolous money to get the same effect. Not consistent - but honest.. :wink:
Click to expand...


Spot on, Shady, I know exactly what you mean. And for me, it's also a matter of acknowledging that sometimes, for some purposes, there are better materials than solid wood. 

So do I use my plastic handled chisels on my plastic front door? 

At this point, I sense a big Monty Python foot about to come down and a voice saying "Stop! this is getting too silly....!!!"


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Shady

> Take a look at the photo of a spectacular wooden-handled chisel collection earlier in this thread - all obviously untouched by human hand!


 
Careful there, Jacob: if you're referring to Mike W's collection, he's _definitely_ a user... :wink: 

This has generated some interesting thoughts. I wouldn't want anyone to get stroppy with anyone else - we're all here because of a genuine interest in tools, after all (no funny comments, you eejits!). It has made me really think about one of the aspects of tool use that gives me most pleasure. 

I think I'd sum it up by saying that, for me, whilst I couldn't agree more with David C that rubbish tools are a recipe for either disaster or extraordinary work to get a result (and believe me, I've learned that the hard way...), there is at the same time a sort of pleasure in minimalism, where using a simple tool, that's fit for purpose, for a long period of time, is immensely rewarding. 

I do _slightly_ wonder about the cost of the L-Ns, for example. I'm sure that Tom L-N is only offering a price that only reflects the costs of producing what is obviously a finely made tool, properly finished: but a chisel is possibly one of the least difficult tools to make 'fit for purpose' with respect to the blade shape, bevels etc.

I mean, check out my offering here: http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Shady_on_Sharpening.htm

That chisel is still in use with me today - and took all of about ten minutes to get from 'throw away' to 'heirloom'.... 

For me, the only real chisel selling point is blade steel quality, and, purely for speed of prep, not having a convex back...

However - if you've got the money to burn, enjoy fine offerings: planes, now - that's a different subject all together... :wink:


----------



## Alf

Mr_Grimsdale":1zivx97l said:


> I've got some 5001s also bought in the 70s


There's something of a pattern building here. A lot of these desirable chisels seem to be 30 years old. Personaly I don't see many 30 year old plastic-handled chisels that are worth the time of day. I may, of course, be unique in this.



Mr_Grimsdale":1zivx97l said:


> Still going strong after years of brutal, heavy-handed mis-use. <snip> Chisel handles is one area where plastic is better than wood.


Anyone esle see a connection there? Anyone?



Mr_Grimsdale":1zivx97l said:


> The toolies wouldn't know this of course - because they don't use them much.


That's right, Jacob, our lily white's would probably blister at their touch. Oh wait, maybe that's the point... :roll:



Mr_Grimsdale":1zivx97l said:


> Take a look at the photo of a spectacular wooden-handled chisel collection earlier in this thread - all obviously untouched by human hand!


Mike's? Oh dear, you've really picked the wrong guy there. :lol: Here's his website, although I'm sure he's got more pics if you ask nicely.



Mr_Grimsdale":1zivx97l said:


> It gets tedious hearing ordinary low-end tools like most of us have to work with, being slagged off all the time.


D'you know what's even more tedious than that? Hearing that having high-end tools means you have no skill. Any time you want to call a truce, just say the word.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Alf

Shady":1paulu1a said:


> I do _slightly_ wonder about the cost of the L-Ns, for example. I'm sure that Tom L-N is only offering a price that only reflects the costs of producing what is obviously a finely made tool, properly finished: but a chisel is possibly one of the least difficult tools to make 'fit for purpose' with respect to the blade shape, bevels etc.


Hey up, Shady, you slipped that in when I was mid-compose. The thing I wonder is; if chisels are so easy to make, why are so many of them so badly made? The conclusion I come to is it's because they appear to be so easy to make people expect them to be cheaper. So hey, they're made to a price which, inevitably, means they're not made very well. It's a theory anyway.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Alf

Mr_Grimsdale":1oxmoww9 said:


> Alf":1oxmoww9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> 
> Mr_Grimsdale":1oxmoww9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It gets tedious hearing ordinary low-end tools like most of us have to work with, being slagged off all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> D'you know what's even more tedious than that? Hearing that having high-end tools means you have no skill.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I didn't say that did I?
Click to expand...




Mr_Grimsdale":1oxmoww9 said:


> The toolies wouldn't know this of course - because they don't use them much.


 :-s 



Mr_Grimsdale":1oxmoww9 said:


> Alf":1oxmoww9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any time you want to call a truce, just say the word.
> 
> Cheers, Alf
> 
> 
> 
> Not whilst I'm winning!
Click to expand...

Like hell you are


----------



## bugbear

Shady":2j5y71o9 said:


> I do _slightly_ wonder about the cost of the L-Ns, for example. I'm sure that Tom L-N is only offering a price that only reflects the costs of producing what is obviously a finely made tool, properly finished: but a chisel is possibly one of the least difficult tools to make 'fit for purpose' with respect to the blade shape, bevels etc.



The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.

The stuff carries a heavy premium as raw stock, and requires more difficult heat treatment (which means snazzier equipment to do it).

But.

It's also difficult to forge. And TLN decided (probably due to the biases of the USA market) to make socket chisels (*).

And forging A2 is (apparently) not easy. Extremely "not easy".

So - yes indeedy, finely made, properly heat treated, socket A2 chisels are expensive to make.

BugBear

(*) Why you need to strength of a socket for anything other than morticing escapes me.


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Shady

Bugbear,



> The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.



I'm not so sure, mate. If you look at the cost of a Veritas replacement plane blade in A2, it's much less, for not much less steel, in total... I'm sure I read somewhere that the expense with TL-N's chisels was because they're properly finished, with decent bevels and flattened backs: so I think it's a mixture of all the factors that go into making a good quality tool today...

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with their price - either way, I'm confident it reflects the expense of producing them. 

Mr G - if your chisels are European pattern, as opposed to Japanese, then my understanding is that this was an economy measure, in which the harder 'edge holding' steel was laminated to softer stuff in manufacture. I can see the lamination point on an Ibbotson plane blade I've got, and on several older chisels. Most of the tools of any quality I've seen describe the edge holding stuff as 'cast crucible' steel. 

Of course, if you're a Japanese chisel fan, it's a deliberate ploy to give some flexible response to battering... :wink:


----------



## Alf

bugbear":2vod06sy said:


> The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.


Alas, no; Shady's quite right. T L-N tells me it's the work that goes into them you're paying for, not the raw material. Apparently O1 versions would cost the same. (Hope I'm remembering that correctly; maybe I'd better go and dig out those old emails. :shock: )

Jacob, the woodworking world has gone slightly doo-lally about fancy steels I'm afraid. It's all greek to me, but it just seems to boil down to them being more fussy about sharpening. :roll: I think the argument for not laminating used to be that the materials were cheaper than the labour nowadays, but with the hike in prices for the raw materials, is this really still the case? Or is it just we've lost the skills?  IMO half the trouble is folks compare A2 or D17 or whatever to the crappy stuff used as tool steel in the likes of Stanley planes, instead of comparing it to _good_ steel of the more mundane variety. S'not apples with apples.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## bugbear

shady and alf; please read all I wrote, not just the first sentence.

Just to try and be helpful, the only place I know where you can buy 01 and A2 items that are DEAD equivalent is hock.

http://www.hocktools.com/products.htm

O1 2" bench blade 37.50

A2 2" bench blade 44.00

That's a 17% hike on an item without much shaping or working.

BugBear


----------



## Alf

But BB, I have read all you have written, and I still say it ain't so with regard to *chisels*. The amount of raw stock to the amount of work involved between a plane blade and a socket bevel-edged chisel is going to have an effect on the price, no?

Cheers, Alf

*Edit*: To quote exactly what T L-N said, rather than put words in his mouth "However, there would be virtually no cost difference for us to make O-1 vs A-2 so I elected to choose A-2." There's no accounting for choice, as they say.


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Mittlefehldt

With regards to this thread the following quote is from the Lee Valley catalogue, and it hs been there for years, I am fairly sure that Leonard Lee himself may have written it, he tended to be outspoken, pity he doesn't hang about places like this. I should add that was written more than ten years ago if memory serves.


About Bevel-Edge Chisels



A chisel is not complex. 

In today's world, it should not be difficult to use a suitable alloy, properly forge, harden, and grind it, and put a handle on straight. Nonetheless, it seems to be more than most current manufacturers can achieve. 

Though some seem to feel that getting four of the five basics right is a good average, the bevel-edge chisels we offer typically meet all five basic criteria. (Sometimes the Marples have slight handle misalignments.)


----------



## Shady

> shady and alf; please read all I wrote, not just the first sentence.



Sorry mate: your first sentence is absolutely clear to me: 



> The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.



I'm not trying to be funny, just to point out that it apparently is not, according to the bloke who makes and sells them, and according to a comparitive pricing of A2 and O1 steel out there in the market place... :? 

I've been very careful throughout this thread to try and make it clear that I am not trying to attack anyone, and that I'm very happy that the price he charges reflects the cost of producing what is obviously a very good tool. I don't quite see the need for what appears to be a slightly 'snotty' response: if you meant something other than 'the reason is A2', perhaps you shouldn't have said it quite so emphatically. 

If you are now trying to imply that the reason is the comparitive cost of working the material, as the rest of your post implies, well that still doesn't account for the relatively small disparity between A2 and O1 plane blades - or are we to believe that there's no tempering/working/grinding involved in a plane blade?

I'm going to go and grumble in a corner now...


----------



## MikeW

Mr_Grimsdale":3pd4h5va said:


> ...
> Re being rude about toolies' skills - sorry I only meant that if collecting is the priority then using is likely to be less so. (by definition)
> Or to put it another way - a person owning 30 chisels would have to do 10 times as much work as a 3 chisel person, to get the same usage out of them. aotbe.
> cheers
> Jacob


No worries, Jacob...

I think that in part, at least for used chisels, it is easy to collect so many of the same pattern, duplicates in part, in purchasing a used set. The discipline comes in selling off what one doesn't need.

A favorite horse to kick on another forum purchased over 180 chisels in many small, different lots, in order to compose a good set. He was disciplned enough to sell off most that were not part of his user kit. And he is a user.

For me, following the theft of my tools and needing to get on with working, I opted for new. Of all the chisels I had, only one excaped being stolen. That was the Sandvik I mentioned earlier.

While I certainly don't use them all, all the time, the different patterns--in- and out-cannel, paring, bench, mortise, firmer, butt etc, do come in handy for their intended purposes. About the only exotic steel I would consider in a chisel is Ray's mortise chisels.

I think there are several reasons for pricing of Tom's chisels--or plane blades, etc. One reflects the cost of labor and materials. Another the cost of doing business today. Yet another meeting an intended profit structure to ensure a healthy business. One main difference between Tom and Rob in their pricing? Volume. The economy of scale is different between the two business.

As for Hock's pricing difference between A2/O1? I don't think it can be so neatly reduced to only raw materials and difference in heat treatment. While a difference in cost does account for perhaps a linear difference between the cost of both materials and heat treatments, it isn't that great as $7 per unit [assuming the same number of pieces of each go to the same heat treater]. Somewhere in there is meeting the expectation of the consumer that A2 is better and should be more costly.

Ok, off to work for me.
btw, I suspect the only chisels I'll use today were ones not in that picture <g>...to be precise, only 2 chisels from those little detail chisels available from Rob... :lol: 

Take care, Mike


----------



## Paul Chapman

Shady":6jjch4dd said:


> I mean, check out my offering here: http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Shady_on_Sharpening.htm
> 
> That chisel is still in use with me today - and took all of about ten minutes to get from 'throw away' to 'heirloom'....



Excellent result, Shady :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Mirboo

Mr_Grimsdale":3e4tovel said:


> In the meantime you may get hands on experience with all sorts of tools and decide at a later date that a set of Lee&Perrins finest is essential - but you will be making an informed decision.



What, once you decide you can't do woodwork and want to take up cooking. :lol:

For the benefit of Mr_Grimsdale:

A set of Lie-Nielsen bevel edge socket chisels. Can be used for doing woodwork.







A set of Stanley 750 socket chisels. This is the chisel upon which the Lie-Nielsen chisels were based. Can also be used for woodwork, although it doesn't look like this particular set did much.






Lea & Perrins finest. The label says "Adds Instant Richness" but nothing about handcut dovetails. :roll:







As an aside, the set of 10 Stanley 750 chisels pictured above was recently sold by Jon Zimmers, of Jon Zimmers Antique Tools, for US$1000. :shock: A set of 9 Lie-Nielsen chisels costs US$450 according to the Lie-Nielsen website. Gee I wish I could afford a set of old Stanley's. Ah well, I'll just have to be content with a few of the cheaper Lie-Nielsens. :wink:


----------



## Alf

Mirboo":408pexuy said:


>


Oh brother, now I've got a pressing desire for cheese on toast. #-o Remarkable set of Stanleys there - not surprised they went big



Mr_Grimsdale":408pexuy said:


> Or to put it another way - a person owning 30 chisels would have to do 10 times as much work as a 3 chisel person, to get the same usage out of them


Yeah, that's fair enough. Except there's every likelihood they use only a couple of them 90% of the time... :wink: Anyway, 30 chisels? That's not a collection; that's just a small accumulation. 

Okay, how about we look at this another way? Rather than grumbling about particular brands, if you had the choice what would you actually want in a chisel? Maybe we can establish which currently made ones tick the maximum number of people's boxes. Not specialist chisels; just the ordinary sort you reach for all the time for all those various jobs. 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## MikeW

Alf":3gp2lppr said:


> ...Okay, how about we look at this another way? Rather than grumbling about particular brands, if you had the choice what would you actually want in a chisel? Maybe we can establish which currently made ones tick the maximum number of people's boxes. *Not specialist chisels; just the ordinary sort you reach for all the time for all those various jobs*.
> 
> Cheers, Alf


I guess I don't get to vote :lol: 

I mostly use paring chisels...are those specialist :wink: 

How about we substitute 'bench' for the phrase "just the ordinary sort" as I think that would be what most people associate to "reach for all the time."

As well, they are what is mostly available in a wide range of price points...

Mike


----------



## Mittlefehldt

Alf":f1u82j7z said:


> Mirboo":f1u82j7z said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, how about we look at this another way? Rather than grumbling about particular brands, if you had the choice what would you actually want in a chisel? Maybe we can establish which currently made ones tick the maximum number of people's boxes. Not specialist chisels; just the ordinary sort you reach for all the time for all those various jobs.
> 
> Cheers, Alf
Click to expand...


Fair enough. I used to use a minimal set of the blue chip thingys but the would not stand up to daily use, and bent a bit in the middle. I have since aquired a lighter mallet.  

I replaced them with a set of Narex chisels from the Chech republic and they seem fine to me and you can actually wack them a bit, but of course I don't, as I now have Hirsch mortise chisels for the real grunt work.


----------



## Alf

MikeW":17yw6eqq said:


> How about we substitute 'bench' for the phrase "just the ordinary sort" as I think that would be what most people associate to "reach for all the time."


Well I did, and then I predicted someone would start arguing about the semantics of the thing, so I changed it again. :roll: :lol: And yes, Mike, you get a vote 'cos you know jolly well what I meant 

Ah, perhaps I should clarify. Not existing brands, just the features you'd wish to see. F'rinstance, my own wish list in order of preference would be something like:

O1 steel; fine side bevels; flat back; balanced feel (bit subjective, that one); wooden handle (with no hoops!) or better still sold without handles; blade length on the shorter side; capable of taking some _light_ chopping; not polished; socket or tang, no preference.

As it happens one chisel already ticks all those boxes bar the important one... Anyway, you might want forged rather than cast perhaps, or purple plastic handles, or, well whatever.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Mirboo

Alf":1nqyuxpb said:


> O1 steel; fine side bevels; flat back; balanced feel (bit subjective, that one); wooden handle or better still sold without handles; blade length on the shorter side; capable of taking some _light_ chopping; not polished; socket or tang, no preference.



My preferred chisel would be pretty much along the lines of what you've already outlined Alf. Except I don't really care what steel it is. What do you think I am, a metallurgist or something. Well.... actually I am.  

As far as the steel goes I just want something that will take and hold a good edge. It also needs to stand up to Aussie hardwoods.


----------



## bugbear

Shady":32u2q8yv said:


> shady and alf; please read all I wrote, not just the first sentence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry mate: your first sentence is absolutely clear to me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> if you meant something other than 'the reason is A2', perhaps you shouldn't have said it quite so emphatically.
> 
> If you are now trying to imply that the reason is the comparitive cost of working the material, as the rest of your post implies, well that still doesn't account for the relatively small disparity between A2 and O1 plane blades - or are we to believe that there's no tempering/working/grinding involved in a plane blade?
Click to expand...


Consider the first sentence a headline, and the rest the full story, just like a magazine article story.

BugBear


----------



## bugbear

Alf":2c0sfn9m said:


> *Edit*: To quote exactly what T L-N said, rather than put words in his mouth "However, there would be virtually no cost difference for us to make O-1 vs A-2 so I elected to choose A-2." There's no accounting for choice, as they say.



That's MOST interesting; 

(from memory I'm afraid) I thought he said that forging the socket was made more difficult by (the properties of) A2.

BugBear


----------



## Anonymous

Shady":1t0lgpdr said:


> I wouldn't want anyone to get stroppy with anyone else - we're all here because of a genuine interest in tools, after all.



That's where I've been going wrong, I thought we were here because of a common interest in _woodworking_ :roll: :wink: 

Certainly for me, I love using tools to make furniture, however, the tools themselves, taken in isolation, hold no interest. The act of creatioin using them does.


----------



## Alf

Tony":1l2vwcnk said:


> Shady":1l2vwcnk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't want anyone to get stroppy with anyone else - we're all here because of a genuine interest in tools, after all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's where I've been going wrong, I thought we were here because of a common interest in _woodworking_ :roll: :wink:
Click to expand...

Ah, did you not see the notice on the door as you came in? Doesn't say anything about using them... Woodworking's one floor up :wink:

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Mirboo

Mr_Grimsdale":1ayeotge said:


> Didn't know they made sauce!



Really? :roll: I assumed you did and was just trying to inject a bit of humour into the discussion. :wink:



Mr_Grimsdale":1ayeotge said:


> One thing that's certain is that they do a brilliant marketing job. Here we all are talking about tools which few of us own, cost a bomb, and nobody needs!



Of course we are going to talk about them. We are into hand tools and the Lie-Nielsen stuff is at the top end of what is currently being produced. Do you think car enthusiasts would avoid talking about Ferraris and Bugattis. Not many are ever going to own one but I bet they still talk about them.


----------



## MikeW

Mr_Grimsdale":1s6nqzuc said:


> ...Here we all are talking about tools which few of us own, cost a bomb, and nobody needs!


Well then, here are two people certainly don't need...






:lol: 

On a "serious" note, if one is going to work wood one does need, well, tools, eh?

Where we each draw the line between good enough and extravagant is a personal decision. Hopefully an educated one. Which is what talking about tools is good for.

Take care, Mike


----------



## MikeW

Alf":eys1s779 said:


> MikeW":eys1s779 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about we substitute 'bench' for the phrase "just the ordinary sort" as I think that would be what most people associate to "reach for all the time."
> 
> 
> 
> Well I did, and then I predicted someone would start arguing about the semantics of the thing, so I changed it again. :roll: :lol: And yes, Mike, you get a vote 'cos you know jolly well what I meant
> ...
Click to expand...

Hah, a bit of silliness was called for.

I think the list is good as Alf wrote it:


> O1 steel; fine side bevels; flat back; balanced feel (bit subjective, that one); wooden handle (with no hoops!) or better still sold without handles; blade length on the shorter side; capable of taking some light chopping; not polished; socket or tang, no preference.


I would personally choose a tang chisel over the socket for a bench chisel, though. It's what I am use to and seems one can play around pretty easy with different handle styles.

Take care, Mike


----------



## Mirboo

Nice saws Mike.

Mike, on your website I note that you offer panel saws both with and without a tapered blade. Do you think there is much advantage to a tapered blade? Given that the "set" on the saw cuts a kerf that is wider than the blade, is the taper really not necessary? I'd be interested in the opinion of one who knows a lot more about saws than I.


----------



## Frank D.

You should all really try some of this, it's called tamari sauce:





It's organic, made slowly, by master craftsmen, in these wooden vats:




Kind of like these:




:lol: (running and ducking)


----------



## MikeW

Hi Ian--thank you for the kind words.

Hmm. Been around the subject of taper with some which have, uh, strong feelings. Hopefully he must not be named isn't lurking :lol: 

I think, no, I believe that the shorter the saw, the less taper plays a part. I chalk that up more to the mechanics of sawing than the physics of taper.

Some is good, though. Even if it is what we do typically, which is to simply relieve some thickness along the back and near the toe. A proper double taper on a larger saw, though, allows for less set.

On most of the woods I saw it makes little very little difference. On hard woods like Oak and Ash and many really soft woods such as Pine and Fir, open-grained woods, the fibers tear as much as slice. These whiskers in the kerf can get "grabby." So taper does help. 

But proper set can go a long way towards relieving the need for a really heavy taper grind. I figure 2-3 thousandths more set on a saw without taper is all that is needed to offer relief in those grabby woods.

On topic content: I used 3 different chisels today. Two tanged paring chisels and one 1/2" Greenlee socket chisel :wink: 

Take care, Mike


----------



## Alf

Look here, chaps, I like talking saws as much as the next person, but I was hoping for a few more opinions on what you want in a chisel here. :roll: Oh well, it's no wonder manufacturers don't bother if the potential consumer doesn't. [-( 

Jacob, Acorn was J A Chapman's brand, subsequently the second quality line when Stanley bought up Chapman to become Stanley GB. On which basis it's probably a reasonable guess that pre-Stanley Acorn quality might be better than post, so buyer beware. Faithful, I dunno know. I think someone said they're being made in China now and the quality's plummeted in consequence, but I've not played with one to really comment. Might just as well get a Groz or an Anant; just as much pot luck as to whether it'll be a good one or not.

Which may be a point worth mentioning. Yes, you can get lucky and get good examples of cheap planes, but some folks like to pay more to tip the balance the other way into "you may be _unlucky_ and get the odd bad one _but the manufacturer will replace it asap and apologise profusely_". So it's reasonable to argue that some of that cost is in fact going into insurance. Insurance that'll you'll actually get a workable tool and the service to back it up.

Cheers, Alf

Edited to add; Frank, those chisels don't look very organic to me... :-k :wink:


----------



## MikeW

Your list pretty much has it, Alf. [I did mention that in my post. Honestly.]

For myself, I just don't want A2. Laminated blades would be a good thing. Leaves little of the really hard steel which makes sharpening easier than it could otherwise be.

I think as I prefer western-style chisels, with the other attributes a "given" it really boils down whether they are tanged or socketed, forged or cast.

As for that, tanged is a preference simply for handle options, and as I haven't tried any Barr chisels, I have no idea whether that is an issue to me.

Take care, Mike
who at least ventured off-topic with a tool


----------



## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting


----------



## Shady

Funnily enough, while wandering around Axminster's summer sale site, look what I've just found at around £18:






At £3 each, that's where I'd start - anyone played with these, and can comment on them?

(Edit - and they fit my chisel requirements - cheap, abuse proof handles) Only question is the quality of the steel...


----------



## Alf

Gosh, look at that - actual honesty in calling them firmers! Oh, except Axminster calls them bevel-edged... #-o But hey, they might be a total bargain.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## woodbloke

> AHOY! Broadside salvo of grape shot coming........



Mr C's been reading his Hornblower, as I am again, for the umpteenth time. Do agree with his comments on Kingshott tho' apart from his preference to use waterstones.... tho' this has been amply covered on a previous post a little while ago - Rob


----------



## Mirboo

Shady,

Your chisels look similar to these Stanley ones.






This set retails for AUS$115 over here (about 45 quid). Could they perhaps be from the same factory. :-k


----------



## Paul Chapman

While most of my (Marples) chisels have plastic handles and I'm quite happy with them, some manufacturers are now starting to use that soft, spongy, shock-absorbing plastic which I think is horrible. It tends to wear badly and dirt and sawdust sticks to it, making it very uncomfortable to use  

Paul


----------



## Frank D.

I don't think making a list of what we find desirable gets us any further toward a consensus. Of course we all want an edge that lasts...and even that can mean different things for different people. I was quite happy with my chisels until I started working very hard and abrasive woods. Once I had some mortises to do in some bubinga, and only two of my 11 or so chisels lasted more than a few bangs (the edges would just crumble or roll over). My definition of a tough edge changed quite a bit. I finally ended up making my own chisels, but that hasn't stopped me from trying out others, like japanese chisels that I'm really starting to like. 
I've also shared since I was young what I call a male fascination for sharp and pointy things (I used to sleep with my axe when I was 12 years old...my poor mother who had to repair the sheets...). It's no wonder why, throughout history, swords, knives, and axes have often been representative of technological development of given populations. I've probably made as many tools as pieces of furniture, so for me tools are not just a means to an end. They are also expressions of craftmanship for which, in certain cases, I am ready to pay more.
2¢


----------



## Alf

Frank D.":eqjy662e said:


> I don't think making a list of what we find desirable gets us any further toward a consensus.


Maybe not, but if thirty people had all said "not polished" I'd have printed it out and sent it to Henry Taylor... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Frank D.

Here's a beautiful chisel set, unpolished with no handles. You can even choose your own tang sizes and bevel angles as well:


----------



## Alf

Frank, I'm in enough trouble re-handling existing ones... :roll: :lol:


----------



## MikeW

"not polished"..."not polished"..."not polished"..."not polished"..."not pol...

Ok, so I deleted the rest of the 30 "not polished" statements.

I think the western mind has been trained to believe polished equals quality.

Give me someone making real firmers just like the Butchers et al that I have and I think they would sell. The edges on the sides have been "broke" enough to not cut oneself. The backs are reasonably flate and I haven't really done much to change that except about halfway up to get to a nice clean edge.

Take care, Mike


----------



## Paul Kierstead

Hmm, tempers flaring over chisels. Quite a nice change from BU vrs BD. 

In defense of socket chisels. 

I am certainly not going to tell anyone what is good for _them_, but using socket chisels (specifically LN) have been a bit of a revelation for me. 

Balance: The heavy socket significantly alters the balance of the chisel. For me, I *really* like that balance shift. It feels "right". 

Handles: The L-N's in particular have extremely nice handles, at least for my hands. They 'come to' the hand extremely well; just nestling down in there so very very comfortably. This is also very much about balance of course as well and the .. 

Neck Crank: This also significantly makes the chisel sit right. 

The socket: I really like the socket. For some operations I tend to hold the chisel quite 'forward', and the socket/handle transition area is an extremely comfortable place to hold it. You can hold these for hours happily. 

The handle falling out: Ok, this I will admit: I kind of like this. Here we have *extreme* temperature shifts over the year (55+ degrees swing from winter to summer and that isn't with wind chill or humidity which pushes it to 85+ degrees swing.. but the tools don't mind wind chill...). This makes your tools, and other things, have a 'rhythm of the seasons'. It is part of the changing of the seasons and tells you it is getting dry. A few whacks later and all is good. For me, a portion of WW pleasure is ... meditative and ritualistic. I actually like some of the little rituals of preparation and -- when I can calm the mind well -- the meditative processes of flattening a board or tuning a tool. In so much of my life I have to be results focused; in my WW I like to enjoy the process without being in such a rush for a result. So, when the handles drop out I smile, look forward to the upcoming skiing and smack 'em back in. 

All in all, I will reach for my socket chisel above the others where appropriate. In the specific case of the LN ones, I do wish they had been O-1 instead, but on the upside they are so close to perfect shape out-of-the-box, it isn't like a huge amount of work is required. 

On perfectly flat backs...maybe just make em good enough first of and touch them up every time you sharpen. As time goes by they will become as perfect as they can be.


----------



## Philly

Paul
Amen, Brother! :sign3: 
I feel until you have used average, bad and downright terrible tools you cannot appreciate a finely made one. I would not recommend that a beginner goes out and spends a big pile of cash on high-end tools but once on the road (or Slope :wink: ) you can appreciate the work that has gone into them and their refinements.
A better tool does not guarantee better workmanship-but if you are in a position to try them do give them a go.
Cheers
Philly


----------



## Frank D.

Alf":2cg7ej57 said:


> Frank, I'm in enough trouble re-handling existing ones...


 Oh, sorry Alf, I thought you wanted a kit... :wink:



MikeW":2cg7ej57 said:


> "
> I think the western mind has been trained to believe polished equals quality.


I agree Mike. Fine surface grinding is often a sign of quality. Polishing is just a marketing strategy that throws off blade geometry. It's a shame so many manufacturers do it.
I also agree with Paul about the feel of LN chisels. They are my favorite Western chisels, after my own Lie Franksens of course. I'm not so sure about the handles falling off though... of course the Japanese have got all angles covered, with tanged sockets.


----------



## bugbear

Frank D.":dj3o2xpz said:


> Here's a beautiful chisel set, unpolished with no handles. You can even choose your own tang sizes and bevel angles as well:



AH! The ultimate in "needs some final tuning by the user" tools.

BugBear


----------



## bugbear

bugbear":1thdvw8i said:


> Alf":1thdvw8i said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Edit*: To quote exactly what T L-N said, rather than put words in his mouth "However, there would be virtually no cost difference for us to make O-1 vs A-2 so I elected to choose A-2." There's no accounting for choice, as they say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's MOST interesting;
> 
> (from memory I'm afraid) I thought he said that forging the socket was made more difficult by (the properties of) A2.
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


This post concerns my own senility and self-evident lack of an accurate memory. I emailed Thomas (LN) and asked!

And my memory (and most of what I said, quoting from memory) is utterly and completely wrong.

I asked Thomas:



me":1thdvw8i said:


> "Does the use of A2 steel raise the manufacturing
> cost of these chisels significantly, as opposed
> to using O-1 steel".



and he said



Thomas Lie-Nielsen":1thdvw8i said:


> To address your questions, I do not believe that the choice of A-2 over O-1 raises the cost especially. Most of the cost in labor is in machining, grinding and finishing. Heat treating is much less.



Straight (and direct) from the horses mouth.

BugBear


----------



## Nads

Thanks everyone for all your advice, I’ve just got back for holiday, and was hoping for a few replies, but 7 pages worth :shock: , that took me a while to read! :wink: 

I’m still a little confused, I just want to get myself a decent set of chisels which will hopefully last me a long time! I think the Victors are definitely off the cards, and the LN seem a bit excessive for someone of my standard, maybe a few years down the road. I think getting Japanese chisels might be a bit too different from our original tool list, tho in time I’m sure I’ll end up with a set of them too!

So it seems to me that it I’m only left with two options, the Ashly Iles or the unpolished Kirschens. Half of me says get the unpolished Kirschen 1101 set, but then I don’t really like the look of them. And although I like the look of the Ashley Isles chisels I’m worried about the quality of the steel, after reading the comments from lots of you guys. :? 

Does anyone know if any of these chisels might be at the Yandles show in Sept, as I suppose, seeing the chisels in person might help me make my decision?! :wink: 

Thanks again guys

p.s Just in case anyone is intrested I found out that the Axminster Victor range of chisels are made by Henry Taylor

Nads


----------



## Philly

Nads
Ashley Isles will be there. And Mike at Classic Hand Tools will probably have the L-N's. Don't forget the open day on the Saturday-there will be plenty of chisels to try out there  
Philly


----------



## Alf

Nads":2j65hkl5 said:


> Half of me says get the unpolished Kirschen 1101 set, but then I don’t really like the look of them.


Presumably it's the handles that put you off? I'm right with you there. But you _could_ replace them, if that's the only problem.

So Philly, is that 'cos people will be bringing their own, or just what you have in the Tool Chest that is your workshop? :wink: Wouldn't mind seeing some of the Kirschens, I must admit - I damn those handles purely on looks and it's a bad habit.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Nads

What’s special about the Saturday, unfortunately my turning club is going on the friday, I always seem to go on a different day to you guys…….oh well! That’s good maybe I might be able to see/play with a few chisels then before I make up my mind then? :wink: 

Yeah it’s the handles that put me off the Kirschen 1101 set, its all that lacquer and tacky steel ring on the top…….I know they serve a function, but them handles are ugly!  

Cheers

Nads


----------



## DaveL

Nads,

Thisis the event on saturday that Philly is referring to.  8)


----------



## bugbear

Nads":1yektw3l said:


> Yeah it’s the handles that put me off the Kirschen 1101 set, its all that lacquer and tacky steel ring on the top…….I know they serve a function, but them handles are ugly!



Alice has shown the way - handles are wood, and wood can be worked...

With regard (side track) to modern saws, it would be very easy to buy an good saw with the usual handle with corners, and round it off.

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psPro ... ,0,0,1|22|

Just rasp and sandpaper work, all the bulk work's already been done by the manufacturer.

BugBear


----------



## Alf

bugbear":20wbu5nr said:


> With regard (side track) to modern saws, it would be very easy to buy an good saw with the usual handle with corners, and round it off.


Mike did that very thing last year, but alas, he must have taken down the pics.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## MikeW

A casualty of site clean up.

This might be the comparison picture.







The saw in other ways is just fine. The saw plate is thicker than it ought to be for the size. But it sharpens well and holds its sharpening long enough. I use it for deepening handle kerfs when I do certain thickness steel [.030"]. The set is one thou a side, refiled rip and so leaves a kerf of .032".

I added a new handle altogether for someone who bought the same saw and the steel was .032". So they do vary as to thickness.

Take care, Mike


----------



## Alf

Dat's der bunny - thanks, Mike.

Cheers, Alf


----------



## MikeW

Alf":2vc7g538 said:


> Dat's der bunny - thanks, Mike.
> 
> Cheers, Alf


So it's OK for people to bring along their rasps and half-round files for a handle shaping clinic too, right? :twisted: 

Mike
duckin' and runnin'


----------



## Alf

Mike, you're not helping... [-X :lol:


----------



## MikeW

Alf":2swy0fy7 said:


> Mike, you're not helping... [-X :lol:


But I would if I could...and it is the thought that counts, right? :lol: 

I've done two clinics like this. Sharpening and shaping. Tis a lot of fun. And keeps people who get their saws sharpened straight away engaged.

btw, How's the saw files at CHT??? I saw the blog. Have you checked today <g>...

Take care, Mike


----------



## Alf

Mike* tells me they're ordered, and if the tool gods are with me, should make it into his regular LN order due soonish. Just as long as he's taken note of the _double_ extra slim aspect of the request. [-o< :lol: 

But we're rather wandering away from the chisels here, aren't we? Pretty sure I can't walk into any kind of chisel demonstration trap... 8-[

Cheers, Alf

* Look, youse guys aren't very original, are you? :roll: Maybe I'll call you Henry instead, after that FTJ article


----------



## MikeW

> But we're rather wandering away from the chisels here, aren't we? Pretty sure I can't walk into any kind of chisel demonstration trap...


Nope. Leave the grinding, sharpening and otherwise fettling of the steel to another. It hard work.

Now, shaping handles for orphaned chisels...or reshaping handles of new, but uncomfy chisels? Seems to fit right into shaping of saw handles :wink: :lol: 

Take care, Mike
who really better go into hiding now...


----------



## Alf

#-o


----------



## bugbear

MikeW":2lde446f said:


> So it's OK for people to bring along their rasps and half-round files for a handle shaping clinic too, right? :twisted:



Handle shaping?

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/handle.html

BugBear (happy to help)


----------



## Colin C

Alf
I can see that hole getting bigger and bigger :shock:  
Its a real shame I cant be there to see it :twisted: 

Heading for the door, forget the coat 8-[


----------



## MikeW

Colin C":34wdvt62 said:


> Alf
> I can see that hole getting bigger and bigger :shock:
> Its a real shame I cant be there to see it :twisted:
> 
> Heading for the door, forget the coat 8-[


Hi Colin--and then there's always Veritas LA spokeshave kits to make :lol: 

Take care, Mike
really runnin...


----------



## Alf

_Blighters_*





* Family show. Unfortunately...


----------



## Paul Chapman

I'm keeping out of this 8-[ 8-[ 8-[ 

Paul


----------



## Clinton1

I'll second the call for Narex - Lee Valley says that they are "inexpensive but good quality". At a set of 8 for US$54 they are better than the cheapest unknown Chinese made ones, and pose no risk of being a waste of cash.

Mine serve their purpose.

I figure that 'the cheapest ones available' might be a bit lacking in quality control, but 'cheap ones that Lee Valley say are good quality' will be more than suitable.

Save buying the 'Ferrari of chisels' :roll: for when the Uni course is making you lots of money perhaps.


----------

