# Chipped edges on new planes and do new planes need sharpening before use?



## silz (9 Sep 2020)

A discussion on a member's Wood River planes chipping and do new planes need sharpening before first use.


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## topchippyles (9 Sep 2020)

Must be real poor quality if they are chipping.Daft question but is there some hidden metal in the timber you planed ?


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## AndyT (9 Sep 2020)

It's a fairly common problem which has cropped up several times with new edge tools of various makes. The general consensus is that it's just the first few millimetres of steel which ends up being more brittle than the rest. Grind and hone your way past this and all should be well.


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## Nigel Burden (9 Sep 2020)

I can't comment on Wood River planes.

It depends what you mean by a smooth surface, but I would not expect a no7 to leave a polished smooth surface due to what the plane is used for. Having said that, I can, by setting the cap iron very close to the cutting edge, 1/32" or closer, get my wooden jointer to leave a smooth surface.

My Record 5 1/2 will leave a polished surface if set up in the same manner and I often use it as a smoother, like my no 4.

Does the wood that you're planing have any knots? Although pine is a softwood, the knots are extremely hard and will knock the blade about.

Nigel.


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## Woody2Shoes (9 Sep 2020)

Where did you get the piece of wood from? Pallet wood? Any tiny bits of grit or metal dust (eg from angle grinding or filing) lurking in there? Recently I made a nasty mess of a nice bronze 102 on the end of the hickory shaft of a blacksmiths hammer (it had almost invisible bits of metal dust in it).

What angle is the bevel?

Cheers, W2S

PS I have two WR and several QS (from the same factory) planes and all are as excellent as you might hope them to be

PPS that wood looks like a very grotty bit of spruce palletwood - I'd suspect contamination with grit/etc


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## Nigel Burden (9 Sep 2020)

Your photo shows tear out around the knot where the grain direction reverses. You may need to plane in the opposite direction, but setting the cap iron close to the cutting edge as I explained in my previous post, a tightly set cap iron and a shallow cut will help. See the link below about setting the cap iron and tear out.






You searched for setting the cap iron - The English Woodworker







www.theenglishwoodworker.com





Nigel.


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## Nigel Burden (9 Sep 2020)

The blade chipping is not good, but just a thought. Is the blade sharpened to an angle that is too shallow? An angle up to 30° is ok and would give a stronger edge.

Nigel.


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## AndyT (9 Sep 2020)

sebg said:


> Am i correct to assume honing my way past these mm will take hours? thats how it looks like.



Honing is relatively slow and removes the minimum of metal, that's why I said grind and hone. Use a bench grinder to take off a few mm, and give you a bevel of about 25 degrees. Then hone a secondary bevel at the tip, at about 30 degrees. It should only take a few minutes. 

If you don't have a grinder you could use abrasive paper for this step, but it would take a bit longer. Use something quite coarse - 80 grit would be ok.


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## AJB Temple (9 Sep 2020)

Andy is spot on. You have a bit of a perfect storm here: edge needs grinding and honing, you are probably using sub-optimal technique (hence the tear out), and it is an actual bona fide miracle if anyone gets a great finish on B&Q pine.

Working on rickety plastic trestles will not help your cause. Make a bench that is heavy (cheap wood is fine), hold your test piece securely, and ideally use a cheapish bit or hardwood to test your planes: cherry, tulipwood etc.


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## MikeG. (9 Sep 2020)

If you don't have a grinder, but do have a belt sander, remove the collection bag, mount the sander on it's side and with some 80 grit (or thereabouts) paper you can grind a new primary bevel quite easily. Have a jar of water to hand, and if and when the blade gets too hot to hold, sit it in the water for 30 seconds or so.

Oh, and do yourself a favour. Never ever buy wood from B&Q again. There are lots of Ridgeons near you, and you'll be able to select from a huge stock of much, much better pine.


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## transatlantic (9 Sep 2020)

As a quick test, try planing the edge of the board rather than the face. Avoid any knots for now, as they can be really really hard in pine. It should be quite easy to get a good finish. If you're still having issues, then there is definately an issue with the blade.

Problem with grinding it back is that if you still end up returning it, they'll probably make out that you damaged the blade by overheating it. Although that would make it soft, not brittle, so would show bending rather than chips/cracks?

But I agree, you shouldn't have to grind a blade back on a mid range plane. Rob Cosmon even has videos showing how little prep the blade of a WoodRiver needs.


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## MikeG. (9 Sep 2020)

sebg said:


> ......... I do expect that plowing straight into the knots with full power to straight up ruin the blades.......



Not so. Any decent plane iron will survive an impact with knots at full power, possibly unscathed. Do it too often and you might need to re-hone, but it really shouldn't do any damage.


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## MikeG. (9 Sep 2020)

Nigel Burden said:


> The blade chipping is not good, but just a thought. Is the blade sharpened to an angle that is too shallow? An angle up to 30° is ok and would give a stronger edge.



Yep. Mine don't have a secondary bevel, and are all sharpened to 30 degrees.


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## Fitzroy (9 Sep 2020)

They are big chips in my book. If the blade was provided with a low angle bevel and you’ve followed it with the hone then the edge could be weak. Rejoining to 30 degrees would strengthen it. However if you did this and it still chipped I’d be sending it back.
F.


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## Peter Sefton (9 Sep 2020)

Hi sebg


We did see your email sent at 4.42 this afternoon - you may have noticed our opening hours are 9.00-4.30 - so I would appreciate a little time to try and help if possible; I have emailed WoodRiver in the USA to ask if they have had any similar issues and await their reply. I have never suffered any blade chipping issues with my WoodRivers, nor have my students who all have WoodRivers in their tool kits.

You mentioned in your post that the WoodRivers were closely priced to the Lie Nielsen’s, of course I am happy to offer you a no quibble refund in full, but I’m pretty sure the LN's are more than twice the price of WoodRiver planes.

I am confident in the quality of the planes but there may be an issue with your blades. Can you advise what timber you are using? It looks to me like carcassing pine, usually used for stud partition walls, not something I would personally use any quality plane over, be that a WoodRiver or a Lie Nielson.

Your bevel up planes would cope better with the knots as they are set at a much lower bedding angle, this attacks the timber in a different manner to standard bench planes with a bedding angle of 45 degrees. Are you able to regrind, sharpen and try some other timber. I am not convinced that throwing more tool money at knotty pine is the answer? It would be really helpful to see a couple more photos of how you have set up the blade and chipbreaker, if you are able to upload them please?


I am always happy to assist customers wherever I can and replace or give full refunds if there are any issues with our tools, we pride ourselves on our customer service, so please give us a chance to sort out your issue.

Cheers Peter


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## Droogs (9 Sep 2020)

I stand by my observations as originally stated in your first thread. Learn to use what you have first before getting more stuff you don't have a clue how to use


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## MikeG. (9 Sep 2020)

sebg said:


> Any pine would be quite full of knots



You do state things as fact rather readily:


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2020)

Most of the "pine" I've seen at B&Q is spruce.


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## Bm101 (9 Sep 2020)

I think you have been given good advice by some stand out experts. World class in some instances. However. If you want to cover postage I'm more than happy to regrind your iron(s) on my sorby and give you a known grind angle. That will take the hard work out and also because I _reckon_ Andy T has it right about the new edge on the steel and it interests me. That, plane set up and cap iron use and timber properties if addressed should sort any issues but I'm more than happy to help.
Modern steels are so predictableand available that it makes little sense for a higher end maker to use cheese metal. It just makes no sense. 
Hope this might help.
Regards


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## AJB Temple (9 Sep 2020)

Sebastian, people here are trying really hard to help you. Peter Sefton is known to many here and is an honourable man. The two irons you are struggling with are different sizes and it is unlikely that they would both be faulty. It takes a while to learn the art of woodworking to a high standard, and you are just starting out really.

It is practically impossible to plane anything properly without a solid bench and a good holdfast system or end peg. 

BM 101 has made a kind offer and I will too. If you want to visit my workshop in Kent, I will sharpen and hone your plane blades for you and show you how to do it such that you can get transparent shavings curling off them, on hardwood or even your B&Q stuff (if we really must!). I will show you how to use various types of hand plane and how to set the blade in properly. You can try out some old Record planes and some newer Lie Nielson and Clifton planes and I will show you that you can get perfectly good results on yours. I would bet money on them working fine for me. You can have a go at sharpening on waterstones, and oil stone and a Robert Sorby (and strop) and compare with (daftly named) scary sharp if you want. You can plane some oak or wenge or maple all of which are leagues harder than the B&Q spruce or pine or whatever it is you are using. Buy better wood. 

Over a few years of woodworking, I know for sure that when stuff goes wrong, the first place to look is at me. And the second place is also me. The tool, if set up sensibly is rarely at fault. 

Genuine offer. Adrian


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## Coyote (9 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> If you want to visit my workshop in Kent,



Bite his hand off Seb!


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## Cabinetman (9 Sep 2020)

That has to be the offer of the year! As Coyote said bite his hand off, ha ha. I have planed all sorts of rubbish in my time with very bog standard blades and I have never ever ever ever chipped a blade like that. ( in fact I have never ever chipped a plane blade) I am confident that they have been hardened incorrectly. See what Mr Temple says but I think they ought to go back. Ian


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## Trevanion (9 Sep 2020)

That looks like Norweigan Spruce (Also known as Whitewood in the trade) to me, which is an absolute nightmare to work with hand tools since as you've found out, it's a very knotty material as well just being an all-round rubbish timber. The knots are probably hard enough to take chips out of the iron if you hit them with enough gusto and you've got an incredibly fine edge.

If you get some Scots Pine (a commonly available Redwood) like Mike has shown on his projects, you'll see and feel a massive difference. Whitewoods such as spruce are barely good enough for really rough construction purposes, hacked up, and nailed together sorta stuff let alone anything pretty.

You're going to feel dogpiled by all the comments thus far, but they've got the best intentions. Get some decent timber and the plane will glide across it and make wonderful shavings.


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## IWW (10 Sep 2020)

You're getting lots of advice, but not all directly addressing your immediate problem!

If the blades you have are A2 steel, as I suspect, then your experience isn't unique. Chipping of new edges with A2 is something that has been complained about on various forums for some time. There is much conjecture as to cause, but there seems to be universal agreement on the cure - grind a mm or so off the blade & all's well. I've bought many blades from what is probably the same factory your blades were made in, to use in the planes I make, & experienced the fracturing edge problem a couple of times. The 'cure' worked for me; the blades were at least as good as anyone else's A2 blades after removing probably less than a mm (& I work with woods that are a severe test for any edge!)

[_I know, you shouldn't have to spend an extra 10 or 15 minutes regrinding & honing a brand new blade (& it'll take a heck of a lot longer than that if you do it manually!), but it could be a far simpler & quicker solution to your problem than going through the hassles of returning them. You could be up & planing in far less time than it would take me to drive to the P.O_.]

Bear in mind that A2 steel is a chippy beast & does need a steeper bevel than old style tools steels as fitted to the planes of yore, if you want your edges to last a decent time between sharpenings. Most people recommend a minimum working angle of 30 degrees, & quite a few say to take the final bevel to 35 deg. That still leaves you with 10 deg of clearance on a standard pitch, bevel-down plane, which is adequate, but gives you a less acute edge with more penetration resistance (i.e., more work to push through the wood).

In your part of the world, where you are likely working with woods that are far less recalcitrant than I regularly tackle, I reckon you'd do better sticking with O1 steels where you can, such as the blades sold by Ray Iles (no affiliations - Veritas & Hock O1 blades are excellent too!). O1 is a wonderfully forgiving steel that's dead easy to put a fine edge on, yet holds it very well - it's the best compromise in my view, for working 'sensible' woods. The powder-metallurgy blades have a place in my world, too, but they cost a lot more and are a bit more difficult to sharpen to the standard I like...

Cheers,


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## Woody2Shoes (10 Sep 2020)

IWW said:


> You're getting lots of advice, but not all directly addressing your immediate problem!
> 
> If the blades you have are A2 steel, as I suspect, then your experience isn't unique. Chipping of new edges with A2 is something that has been complained about on various forums for some time. There is much conjecture as to cause, but there seems to be universal agreement on the cure - grind a mm or so off the blade & all's well. I've bought many blades from what is probably the same factory your blades were made in, to use in the planes I make, & experienced the fracturing edge problem a couple of times. The 'cure' worked for me; the blades were at least as good as anyone else's A2 blades after removing probably less than a mm (& I work with woods that are a severe test for any edge!)
> 
> ...



I think it's a racing certainty - if these are original WR blades - that they're not A2, they're T10 (which is easier to sharpen and less 'brittle' than A2).


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## Peter Sefton (10 Sep 2020)

The Woodrivers are indeed T10, some websites refer to them as A2. But I agree with your assessment in relation to A2 and although LN are excellent planes I don't think they are the solution to this problem.


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## IWW (10 Sep 2020)

Peter Sefton said:


> The Woodrivers are indeed T10, some websites refer to them as A2. But I agree with your assessment in relation to A2 and although LN are excellent planes I don't think they are the solution to this problem.



In that case, perhaps there _is _a problem with the hardening & tempering of those particular blades. While I can imagine the odd dud blade slipping through QC, it seems like a big coincidence that you would get a couple of different planes at te one time, both bearing faulty blades. (?)

Given the OP's experience, I strongly suspect there is a problem with the sharpening technique rather than the blades. The proposed visit with an experienced hand should at least reveal where the problem lies....

Cheers,


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

IWW said:


> .........The proposed visit with an experienced hand....



I'll be pleasantly surprised if that happens.


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## Bacms (10 Sep 2020)

@sebg I am also in Cambridge mate and been using hand planes for a few years without any issues if you are still struggling we could arrange for you to visit and we can have a look at your plane, just drop me a PM. I am in central Cambridge just next to the beehive if that helps


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## Baja-king (10 Sep 2020)

It's really great to see the offers of help from members of the forum, I'm sure you can get all the assistance you need to solve this problem.

I own several Wood River planes that I have purchased over the years from Peter at the Wood Workers Workshop and have found them excellent. A slight bit of prep needed to the blade but not much at all. (I use a diamond plate and a Shapton Glass stone).

I have spent a few £££ with Peter and the service has aways been nothing short of excellent. I have had to make returns (Incra Router table top that was poorly finished) also had Items with cosmetic imperfections that I was given a discount on. My go to company for quality tools.
I'm sure if you allow them they will treat you well.


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## maznaz (10 Sep 2020)

Please remove this if it's deemed not constructive.

I'm amazed by the fulsome and generous response that this forum is providing to somebody who's acting (in my opinion) very unreasonably.

It looks to me like rubbish wood is getting tearout around a particularly knotty area. Those same knots (which are incredibly hard) are probably nicking a very fine edge, or maybe the edge isn't prepared properly from honing at all. I ran into the exact same situation for the first time earlier this year. My solution was to go online, read about what was happening, and practise more with the tools I had. Eventually I got a perfect finish (for my requirements) on some cheap construction timber from yes... B&Q and I ended up with a nice workbench out of it.

The lessons I learnt from that process have helped me work with some much nicer tools and much nicer woods since then and it's really damn satisfying.

What I didn't do, was start badmouthing expensive tools and suppliers on a public forum.


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## Ttrees (10 Sep 2020)

Hello
Firstly you need a bench to plane on.
Some solid trestles which may need some sandbags or whathaveyou.
A long hefty beam of timber that won't bend under pressure or
a composite door from a skip might be found locally.
Butt it against the wall to stop it moving.
Something like this might be a start


Do you have any kind straight edge of some description?
The longer the better, not talking about any short thing or the engineering kind. 

You must have been trying to plane into a dip, or a board that was flexing
so you had to advance the iron way too much, which exerted that much force on the iron to literally snap the edge off like a carrot.

If you have something that is flat, then that will teach you to only plane the high spots.
You could rub a graphite stick or easier again, a black crayon on a said straight edge to mark those high spots out on the work, so you can have as little cutter projection as possible and never plane fresh air again.

Tom


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2020)

__





Rag-in-a-can Oiler - Paul Sellers' Blog


Paul Sellers shows how to make a rag-in-a-can oiler.




paulsellers.com





Works perfectly.


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So does a quick rub from an old candle, without quite so much work involved in the first place.


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## thetyreman (10 Sep 2020)

the knots in spruce are the hardest knots you'll find, get some unsorted redwood pine and you'll find it's a different animal to plane, I've also had spruce chip blades, the woodriver planes from everything I've seen look really good and I really don't think its your plane in this case, give it a good sharpen and try again with some nicer wood, it's worth mentioning that having the cap iron closer to the edge can help minimise tear out as well.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> So does a quick rub from an old candle, without quite so much work involved in the first place.


I'd have to go somewhere and buy a candle, which would be lost by the next day, and a rub from a candle doesn't keep corrosion off when you put the tool away. (Humidy here is often in the high 90's)


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## transatlantic (10 Sep 2020)

In regards to the wax, neither of your suggestions will work unfortunately.

What you really need is this!


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## Droogs (10 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I'd have to go somewhere and buy a candle, which would be lost by the next day, and a rub from a candle doesn't keep corrosion off when you put the tool away. (Humidy here is often in the high 90's)


snaffle one of your missus's tealights Phil


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> ....... (Humidy here is often in the high 90's)



Your fault for living on the wrong side of the Tamar!


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## Daniel2 (10 Sep 2020)

I am also heartened at the gold nugget standard of advice being given in this thread.
The generosity of some going well beyond any call of duty, but demonstrating a 
very human side to t'web.

I'm reading this with avid interest, picking up some great tips along the way.
Now pondering if I should regrind my tools to 30° intead of 25°.  

I have also become a convert to the Rag in a Can Oiler, courtesy of Mr Sellers, and it's
true; it works really well. Wouldn't be without it now.

ATB,
Daniel


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2020)

transatlantic said:


> In regards to the wax, neither of your suggestions will work unfortunately.
> 
> What you really need is this!


Can't afford it. Spent too much on honing oil.


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

Daniel2 said:


> ......Now pondering if I should regrind my tools to 30° intead of 25°. ....



Don't do it all at once. Work up a degree or so at a time, each time you re-grind your blades. So much good tool steel is wasted in the search for the "perfect" angle.


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## Daniel2 (10 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> Don't do it all at once. Work up a degree or so at a time, each time you re-grind your blades. So much good tool steel is wasted in the search for the "perfect" angle.



A very good point.
Thanks.  
I might bite the bullet with one chisel though, only to see what immediate 
difference it may make.
Cheers Mike


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

Daniel2 said:


> A very good point.
> Thanks.
> I might bite the bullet with one chisel though, only to see what immediate
> difference it may make.
> Cheers Mike



Ooooh, hang on. Chisels you should go the other way........from 25 down to 20 degrees. That advice (30 degrees) was for planes only.


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## Ttrees (10 Sep 2020)

Be aware that you need clearance for a plane iron, or the heel of the iron will cause issues coming into contact with the work.


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## Daniel2 (10 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> Ooooh, hang on. Chisels you should go the other way........from 25 down to 20 degrees. That advice (30 degrees) was for planes only.



Phew .... Lucky I decided to have another cup of tea, before getting stuck in, and
saw your post.

  Red flag on the field !!! 

All this time, I've just been sharpening everything to 25°.
Okay, with a flat refusal to go off and let someone else teach me, I've been
slogging my life away on the home school, self teach approach.
An approach that can work, if you're immortal.

This piece of information (another nugget BTW), had escaped me before now.
Perhaps I had somehow gleaned, or decided, along the way, that 25° was some
sort of happy medium..
My gast has been truly flabbered, and see this as a potential doorway to
better sharpening.
After a long time, I feel as if I manage to get my tools to a sufficient standard
of sharp. Certainly enough to enjoy using them, finally. But, I still have the
nagging feeling that something is missing. Perhaps this is it.
A truly serendipitous thread.


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## Rich C (10 Sep 2020)

I sharpen everything to 25°, not had any problems (my tools are all old O1 steel though.)


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## Cheshirechappie (10 Sep 2020)

Just as a sort of 'clarifier', the time-honoured advice is to grind at 25 degrees, and hone at 30.

All sorts of people have tried all sorts of different approaches, some of which work for them (and if they do, then great - carry on), and some of which work in some sets of conditions but not others. But the basic starting point for pretty well every woodworking edge tool is as above - grind at 25, hone at 30.

(Stand by for a long list of exceptions, now!)

Edit to add - Actually, just to be strictly accurate, I probably should have said grind at 25-ish degrees, and hone at 30-ish. A degree or so either way won't usually make too much difference.


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

Yep, let me clarify. 25 degrees is standard for chisels and planes for a primary bevel. However, if you vary from that, then with chisels you should go towards a slimmer primary (DW posted an in depth study of this a few weeks ago, and it coincided with what I had always done before I joined a forum and got told that there was a "proper" angle for chisels). And if you vary with a plane, as I do, then go the opposite way to the chisel.....head towards 30 degrees. Anything up to 44.999 will work. The thing is, I don't use a secondary bevel on a plane, so I simply take my one and only bevel to the same angle that most people hone their little secondary bevel to.


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## Trevanion (10 Sep 2020)

I think 44.998 is the superior angle.


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

I have a scraper plane ground to 45 degrees.


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## Cheshirechappie (10 Sep 2020)

I'm glad I wrote, "...pretty well every woodworking edge tool" now!

Is a scraper plane strictly an edge tool, though?


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## Cheshirechappie (10 Sep 2020)

Trevanion said:


> I think 44.998 is the superior angle.


Agreed, but only for grade PMV5644AXYZ steel quenched in dragon's blood, honed on a Washita stoned mined in 1892, and stropped on the inner thighs of a Cuban virgin.


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## powertools (10 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> I have a scraper plane ground to 45 degrees.




That is the first time I have ever heard of anybody grinding a scraper plane to a set angle. I always thought that they were burnished.
Forget the candles and try the rag in a can you may be happy you did.


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## Daniel2 (10 Sep 2020)

Great. Thank's everyone for the input.
I'll certainly start experimenting, and hopefully hone (  ), my skills a bit.

ATB,
Daniel


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## Trevanion (10 Sep 2020)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Agreed, but only for grade PMV5644AXYZ steel quenched in dragon's blood, honed on a Washita stoned mined in 1892, and stropped on the inner thighs of a Cuban virgin.



No, no, no, it must be cosmic steel made from moon rocks, forged in a submarine volcano then quenched using glacial ice from the peak of Gangkhar Puensum, carefully honed on a piece of Painite using scorpion venon as a honing fluid, then stropped on alligator skin.


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

powertools said:


> That is the first time I have ever heard of anybody grinding a scraper plane to a set angle. I always thought that they were burnished.



Scraper-plane. Not a cabinet scraper, or a card scraper.


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

Trevanion said:


> No, no, no, it must be cosmic steel made from moon rocks, forged in a submarine volcano then quenched using glacial ice from the peak of Gangkhar Puensum, carefully honed on a piece of Painite using scorpion venon as a honing fluid, then stropped on alligator skin.



I'm not sure you're taking this seriously.


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## billw (10 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> I'm not sure you're taking this seriously.



He definitely isn't - there's absolutely no mention of using an Icelandic obsidian lapping plate.


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## AJB Temple (10 Sep 2020)

Has Sebastian left the building?


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2020)

Trevanion said:


> I think 44.998 is the superior angle.


Only if the oilstone is hollow.


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## Peter Sefton (10 Sep 2020)

Thanks for all the support and offers of help for Sebastian.

We have made contact and offered to get the blades and chip breakers collected, checked and reground or replaced if found to be faulty, the other offer is a full refund.

It is very difficult to assess problems over the internet, the issue could be the tools, the timber or the technique but I am confident we will get it resolved to help a fellow woodworker.

Cheers Peter


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## Trevanion (10 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> I'm not sure you're taking this seriously.



To be fair Mike, I don't take much seriously... but I do take the topic of sharpening to a zealot level and I am right.


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2020)

Peter Sefton said:


> .........We have made contact and offered to get the blades and chip breakers collected, checked and reground or replaced if found to be faulty, the other offer is a full refund.......



Well done Peter.


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## AJB Temple (10 Sep 2020)

Sebastian, if you are reading this, I hope you can see that members here support each other and that Peter is a decent bloke who is acting honourably. My offer to help you with sharpening and the basics of hand planing still stands. We all need a bit of help now and again. Kind regards, Adrian


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## Eshmiel (10 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> (Snip) The thing is, I don't use a secondary bevel on a plane, so I simply take my one and only bevel to the same angle that most people hone their little secondary bevel to.



So, when your edge blunts you hone the whole bevel to get the edge sharp again? That must take a while! It would be interesting to read the details of your re-honing and/or resharpening procedure.

Are you familiar with the writings of that Brent Beach, by the way? If so, what pearls concerning his multi-bevel talk can you offer us? 

Eshmiel


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## AJB Temple (10 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> So, when your edge blunts you hone the whole bevel to get the edge sharp again? That must take a while! It would be interesting to read the details of your re-honing and/or resharpening procedure.
> 
> Are you familiar with the writings of that Brent Beach, by the way? If so, what pearls concerning his multi-bevel talk can you offer us?
> 
> Eshmiel


Actually it makes hardly any difference. Lots of people don't use a secondary bevel, me included for many applications. It is not some kind of mystic necessity: all we need is a sharp edge. I don't know what Mike uses, but I use a linisher. Takes maybe 20 seconds plus a quick hone on a strop or diamond plate. 

If you go to Japan and work with the knife sharpeners on carbon steel blades, they don't mess around either. Single bevel knives, (sharpened on side only, hollow the other side) and razor sharp with that single bevel. 

Micro bevels protect the primary bevel somewhat, but are not essential and are a waste of time often (eg mortice chisels being belted with a hammer). How many PT blades are sharpened with a primary and secondary bevel?


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## MikeG. (11 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> So, when your edge blunts you hone the whole bevel to get the edge sharp again? That must take a while! It would be interesting to read the details of your re-honing and/or resharpening procedure.



Yes, that's what I do, and no, it's quick enough. Twelve or 15 strokes on 2 plates.



> Are you familiar with the writings of that Brent Beach, by the way? If so, what pearls concerning his multi-bevel talk can you offer us?



I've never heard of him. Why the sarcasm?


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## Eshmiel (11 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Actually it makes hardly any difference. Lots of people don't use a secondary bevel, me included for many applications. It is not some kind of mystic necessity: all we need is a sharp edge. I don't know what Mike uses, but I use a linisher. Takes maybe 20 seconds plus a quick hone on a strop or diamond plate.
> 
> If you go to Japan and work with the knife sharpeners on carbon steel blades, they don't mess around either. Single bevel knives, (sharpened on side only, hollow the other side) and razor sharp with that single bevel.
> 
> Micro bevels protect the primary bevel somewhat, but are not essential and are a waste of time often (eg mortice chisels being belted with a hammer). How many PT blades are sharpened with a primary and secondary bevel?



A small secondary bevel can be made and re-honed in just a few swipes on some fine sharpening medium. To resharpen the same blunt edge on a large single bevel must surely take longer or, if a machine is used for speed, take a lot more metal to get the edge sharp again. Is that not an unavoidable consequence of the geometries involved?

You're right to say that many traditional sharpening techniques treat the whole of a single bevel. But if a micro-bevel offers some advantages (quicker to re-hone; removes less metal; "protects the primary bevel somewhat") then what are the disadvantages that outweigh those advantages? I feel that, sometimes, the reason we use a technique is that it's what we started with, it works well enough for us and we're reluctant to change the familiar for the unfamiliar. Another technique might be just as good or even better (i.e. more efficient in various ways).

No right & wrong, in other words.

Personally I wouldn't go to Brent Beach lengths - but I do see his logic and just choose not to go to his lengths, as the micro-bevelling I do use seems sufficient for sharpness, speed of re-honing and and avoiding my chisel turning to dust as quickly as reforming the whole bevel each time would.

The DW unicorn sharpening method seems worth adopting. My own experiment do seem to provide a slightly sharper-feeling edge (judged from ease of push and sound, rather than with a microscope). I probably don't use a chisel for long enough in any one session to judge if the edge retention has been greatly improved. But the unicorn process is just a 10 second addition to what I already do, so ........

In short: it's right to be wary of fashionable changes in tool techniques and configurations but some changes do prove to be actual improvements at no real cost in time or effort. But perhaps it's "hard" to change a habit, for us humans. 





__





Brent's Sharpening Pages






brentbeach.ca





Eshmiel


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2020)

Popcorn time.


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## billw (11 Sep 2020)

Hang on - you aren't supposed to rehone the entire thing you just put a new secondary bevel on? *sigh* I dread to think how many hours I have wasted.


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## billw (11 Sep 2020)

Oh and I will add a vote to Peter Sefton's tally, I bought something from there that had a minor error in shipping and the resultant customer service was generous, faultless and polite. I put some more business their way as way of thanks, and know I'm in safe hands when I do so again in the future.


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## maznaz (11 Sep 2020)

I thought the concept of a "sharpening thread" was a bit of a forum joke at first, but I've begun to see the light!


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## MikeG. (11 Sep 2020)

billw said:


> Hang on - you aren't supposed to rehone the entire thing you just put a new secondary bevel on? *sigh* I dread to think how many hours I have wasted.



Don't take any notice of anyone who says you're supposed to or not supposed to do something. There are multiple ways of doing every single woodworking-related task, and you'll find people who back (vehemently sometimes) each and every one of them. I hone the whole bevel of my plane blade, every time. It works for me. It's quick and easy. It shouldn't be a matter of controversy that some people do things in different ways, and I make no claim to my way being better than the more customary secondary bevel approach. When I free-hand sharpened on an oilstone I used a secondary bevel too. Now, on diamond plates I use a honing guide, and it's absolutely no bother to hone the whole face, and it removes the need for re-grinding. So that's what I choose to do. It's neither wrong nor right...just a choice.


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## Eshmiel (11 Sep 2020)

billw said:


> Hang on - you aren't supposed to rehone the entire thing you just put a new secondary bevel on? *sigh* I dread to think how many hours I have wasted.



Ha ha - Mr Beach would have us all put three bevels on both sides of a plane blade, otherwise (he said) true sharpness will elude us because of the pesky wear-bevels made by scraping the bottom of the blade edge along the wood as we plane. This requires a rather involved process inclusive of jigs and mathematics. I know no one who actually does it these days.  

Perhaps the easiest and most effective traditional method, though, is one that Derek Cohen (amongst others) has adopted. He grinds a hollow main bevel on a grinding wheel then uses the two "lands" created at the edge and at the other end of the bevel to guide a rapid freehand hone of those two lands. This effectively puts a micro-bevel on the edge (and the other side of the bevel) which takes very little time (or further metal) to re-hone and re-sharpen. 

That's like reforming the whole bevel except that because it's hollow ground, only very small amounts of metal are taken at the edge and at the top of the bevel - and is easy to freehand as the hollow grind makes it easier to locate the chisel on the sharpening medium by feel. Eventually the lands grow large and the chisel is given a new hollow grind on the wheel.

I believe Derek has also added the unicorn after experimenting hisself and finding value. As I recall, he also mentioned that the unicorning seems to work with higher angle bevels such as 35 degrees, as well as with DW's recommended 20 degrees + a bit in the micro-bevel. 

****
Plenty options for sharpening, then. One question, though, is: what kind of work needs the ultimate sharp edge? Carvers do perhaps (for very clean surfaces rather than ones that only need to function well joint-wise). But how sharp do we cupboard and chair makers need for a bit of paring, mortising or final-fitting? Some of the "wood engineering" aesthetic preference would demand very, very sharp perhaps. Myself I don't mind a little bit of "hand of the maker" toolmark. A little bit.

Eshmiel


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## silz (11 Sep 2020)

Hi guys -- sorry but I've been away on the trip for most of yesterday and i just got the chance to catch up. I think i've seen an email from the place I purchased, I thought that woodriver was a brand more generally available -- didn't want to 'shame' the place I bought them from or anything as I highly doubt it would be their fault to begin with, at the point of writing this I wasn't yet sure that it wasn't my fault which is what I was set on finding. 

But to some extent If my blades are rubbish due to manufacturing quality declining or something, I didn't want to just let it go.

So the consensus seems clear, don't use any planes at all over pine from B&Q or anything like that! I just had some electric-planed offcuts lying around from when I used to buy B&Q pine and wanted to try it on a 'softwood' as i only have some plywood/osb and oak. I intentionally avoided trying it out on the oak (lol right?)

@Peter Sefton Sorry about the angry tone in the email, it was sent at the peak of my frustration. Again -- I do not mean to complain about your company or anything like that, hence why I didn't even name the shop. The whole intention of this thread was to get some advice on what I could possibly be doing wrong, not threatening your reputation to get free dung. If I'm doing something terribly wrong, I'll probably ruin the new blades anyway. 

@AJB Temple I literally passed through Tunbridge Wells twice yesterday, if only had I known!

I do have the really heavy 'dining' table as a temporary workbench at this point, but as I'm working on the new table saw bench, the table saw is currently on it so I had to resort to the sawhorses temporarily. One of my next three projects is a proper hardwood workbench, I'm eyeing some combination of Nicholson & Roubo but I'll plan it properly once I get to that point). I will however need to plane & in the absence of a PT, I'll have to do that using the handtools.

--- 

So since the consensus seems to be that I f***d up and woodriver don't normally chip, I'll first take @Bm101 on his offer as Herts is quite doable for me, as much as I'd love to 'bite' AJB's hand off, getting to Tunbridge wells is a 4+ hours round trip for me. 

@Bm101 whereabouts within Herts are you based?


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## Bm101 (11 Sep 2020)

sebg said:


> .
> 
> @Bm101 whereabouts within Herts are you based?


I'm near Hoddesdon Seb. Might be easier to post them? I've got a book to post to Andy T so I'm heading to the Po next week anyway.


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## AJB Temple (11 Sep 2020)

Bacms said:


> @sebg I am also in Cambridge mate and been using hand planes for a few years without any issues if you are still struggling we could arrange for you to visit and we can have a look at your plane, just drop me a PM. I am in central Cambridge just next to the beehive if that helps



Sebastian - you did see the above offer from Bacms I presume. He is actually In Cambridge.


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## Ttrees (11 Sep 2020)

I have yet to see a timber that can't be planed to a pristine finish with a regular Bailey.


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## silz (11 Sep 2020)

Oh my bad, i didnt see the message from bacms, used to live near the beehive at some point,

@Bacms whenever you are available i'd me extremely grateful to drop by for a chat! I'm free at any time this weekend as well as today, really appreciate the offer


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Sep 2020)

maznaz said:


> I thought the concept of a "sharpening thread" was a bit of a forum joke at first, but I've begun to see the light!


If you can see the light your oilstone's dished.


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## Bacms (11 Sep 2020)

sebg said:


> Oh my bad, i didnt see the message from bacms, used to live near the beehive at some point,
> 
> @Bacms whenever you are available i'd be extremely grateful to drop by for a chat! I'm free at any time this weekend as well as today, really appreciate the offer



I have replied to your message. This weekend would work for me and I was already planning to spend part of tomorrow sharpening my planes so it would be ideal


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## TheTiddles (11 Sep 2020)

I’m astonished anyone’s been as supportive as they have been given his previous conduct, still, we’ve seen what Peter’s after sales support looks like, I’m inclined to buy from him in future, if only I actually _needed _any more tools

Aidan


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## Tony Zaffuto (12 Sep 2020)

Woodworking vendors are generally tops! You guys across the pond have many, as we do here in the states. Most new to our hobby or profession need a helping hand, and my hat is off to all many of you have offered!


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## pe2dave (12 Sep 2020)

Paul Sellers uses a compromise. On 8" diamond whetstones, 'rocks' (by fractions of an inch) from one end to 'tother, hence (sort of) producing a gradual bevel? Finish with a strop. Works for me, from my hand axe through to plane blades and 1/8" chisels.


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## Daniel2 (12 Sep 2020)

But, moving on ......
I have found this thread informative and enlightening.


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## Doug B (12 Sep 2020)

It’s good to see Peter going above & beyond what a lot of tool sellers would, as a very happy customer of his I’m not surprised. Well done Peter.


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## Bacms (12 Sep 2020)

Seb was around this morning and we had a nice chat and got some 2 of the planes up to scratch and working again. He came across well and to be honest I think it just felt a bit intimidated by the reactions here to which I believe was a genuine question even if it didn't come across like that. 

He has just started working with planes and if anything was just misguided by the information that premium planes come ready to use out of the box, which is partially true if you know what you are doing but they certainly don't come with the skill you will need to acquire as you use them.


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## Bacms (12 Sep 2020)

And BTW the reason we only 2 planes ready was time nothing else. I have a record wet stone sharpener which is the slowest thing in the world


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## marcros (12 Sep 2020)

Bacms said:


> Seb was around this morning and we had a nice chat and got some 2 of the planes up to scratch and working again. He came across well and to be honest I think it just felt a bit intimidated by the reactions here to which I believe was a genuine question even if it didn't come across like that.
> 
> He has just started working with planes and if anything was just misguided by the information that premium planes come ready to use out of the box, which is partially true if you know what you are doing but they certainly don't come with the skill you will need to acquire as you use them.



good on you for sorting him out.


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## AJB Temple (12 Sep 2020)

Well done for helping him. He had at least three offers of help in this thread, which is not intimidating. I think perhaps he trapped himself in his threads by setting out a position of some experience, when in fact he is a novice. Hopefully he will get over it and will add to the forum as the novice journey is also interesting and useful


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## Trevanion (12 Sep 2020)

A man who cannot take honest and fair advice will have a slow and troublesome journey to the top of the mountain.


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## Daniel2 (12 Sep 2020)

@Bacms , Good on you for doing that  
And for updating us all here.
As others have said, I also wish him well in his endeavors.


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## Daniel2 (12 Sep 2020)

Trevanion said:


> A man who cannot take honest and fair advice will have a slow and troublesome journey to the top of the mountain.



Very true, but often our personal pride becomes it's own obstructive enemy.


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## billw (12 Sep 2020)

Well, everyone knows in woodworking you should think twice, post once.


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## Peter Sefton (12 Sep 2020)

Thank you @Bacms for helping Sebastian with his plane blades, we have not received any reply to our email from him so I assume the blades are ok? If you did find any issues please PM me so we can ensure we don't have any quality problem.

Cheers Peter


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## Tony Zaffuto (13 Sep 2020)

Daniel2 said:


> The thread did have merit for future readers, if it were whole.
> If possible, why not restore & lock ?



Would also have merit to new handplane users as to what to expect from new tools. Might not be a bad idea for an *upcharge*, for tool dealers to hone blades, do a basic set-up of the chipbreaker, take a few shavings and include said shavings in the package.

In any case new users need to be instructed in what to expect, otherwise similar insinuations (like those of the OP in this thread) might continue to be made. That is the shame of what has happened to this thread.


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## Bacms (13 Sep 2020)

Peter Sefton said:


> Thank you @Bacms for helping Sebastian with his plane blades, we have not received any reply to our email from him so I assume the blades are ok? If you did find any issues please PM me so we can ensure we don't have any quality problem.
> 
> Cheers Peter


I will PM you


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## Bacms (13 Sep 2020)

Bacms said:


> I will PM you



Done sorry for the length. In short, and for the benefit of this thread, I believe it was user error and inexperience


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## Eshmiel (13 Sep 2020)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> Would also have merit to new handplane users as to what to expect from new tools. Might not be a bad idea for an *upcharge*, for tool dealers to hone blades, do a basic set-up of the chipbreaker, take a few shavings and include said shavings in the package.
> 
> In any case new users need to be instructed in what to expect, otherwise similar insinuations (like those of the OP in this thread) might continue to be made. That is the shame of what has happened to this thread.


 
It's something of a cop-out for tool dealers and resellers to simply add their cut of the profit to an item that isn't really in a fit state to work properly. What else would you buy that wasn't in a fit condition to be used without significant buyer work to make it functional? In most cases, you'd return it not because it wasn't fixable (by you or anyone else) but because it hadn't already been fixed by the purveyor when it could have been.

Lie-Nielsen and Veritas produce planes and chisels that are ready to work out of the box - even though a savvy user can improve the edge by way of a micro-bevel or a quick hone to super (rather than merely functional) sharpness. Why don't all manufacturers of planes and chisels do this? One answer is that it would increase the cost. But that's true of any sold-article (the vast majority) that comes ready to use. The cost includes making it function without the buyer having to perform the final manufacturing processes.

Surely the manufacturer should make their wares not just fit for purpose but also ready for purpose. Manufacturers of most things do this, including tool manufacturers. You don't have to finally shape the end of your screwdriver or sharpen the teeth of your circular saw blade after you remove them from the packaging.

We seem to have got used to the notion that some things must be ready to use but others are for the user to make ready. What differentiates the two modes other than some peculiar tradition? Is there a reason that many plane blades and chisels should often come unready to be used whilst most other things are ready? 

Eshmiel


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## AndyT (13 Sep 2020)

We had a thread about whether tools should be "sharp out of the box" very recently. Here's a link to it, to save repeating three pages of discussion.









Should it be Sharp Out of the Box?


On a recent constitutional around the internet, i found a rather interesting article about new tools and whether they should be ready to go, nice and sharp straight out of the box. I was wondering about members thoughts on this, is it worth paying a premium to LV or Tomm Lee for such or not...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## Bacms (13 Sep 2020)

To be honest I am not sure this applies here. I never saw the planes undamaged but he disassembled them and introduced a few problems in the reassembly so their original state would have been a moot point


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## Tony Zaffuto (13 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> It's something of a cop-out for tool dealers and resellers to simply add their cut of the profit to an item that isn't really in a fit state to work properly. What else would you buy that wasn't in a fit condition to be used without significant buyer work to make it functional? In most cases, you'd return it not because it wasn't fixable (by you or anyone else) but because it hadn't already been fixed by the purveyor when it could have been.
> 
> Lie-Nielsen and Veritas produce planes and chisels that are ready to work out of the box - even though a savvy user can improve the edge by way of a micro-bevel or a quick hone to super (rather than merely functional) sharpness. Why don't all manufacturers of planes and chisels do this? One answer is that it would increase the cost. But that's true of any sold-article (the vast majority) that comes ready to use. The cost includes making it function without the buyer having to perform the final manufacturing processes.
> 
> ...



I'm referring to rank beginners, as the OP was, and I'm suggesting an optional upcharge. I've been at this longer than many here have been alive, but I can still see how some just entering this hobby, could be frustrated at being incapable of making a shaving. Instead, I'm suggesting giving newbies a push down the slope!


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## Droogs (13 Sep 2020)

Tony you manufacture tools/machine don't you? Are they ready to go out the box or do customers need to do a DIY install. Not being cheeky, just out of interest. for a plane how much in expense would you think it would work out to to have it ready to go fully set up.


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## shed9 (13 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> It's something of a cop-out for tool dealers and resellers to simply add their cut of the profit to an item that isn't really in a fit state to work properly. .......... Is there a reason that many plane blades and chisels should often come unready to be used whilst most other things are ready?
> 
> Eshmiel



To be fair, the reseller in this instance is Peter Sefton and his reputation certainly exceeds that of merely someone adding their cut. As for the 'sharp out of the box conundrum', I think once you're purchasing Quangsheng / Woordriver planes, whilst not LN / Veritas territory, they are definitely a next step up from big-box store tools. People mostly know what they are heading into when they wander into that side of tool purchasing, except sometimes as stated above there is a mismatch in user expectation mixed with user inexperience and in this case there was clearly some frustration. That said I do see the argument of tools being ready to go, just not sure this is relevant in this case is all.

Wasn't played out the best way it could have but Sebastian did reach out and things were sorted. Yes, part of one thread of many on a UK wood working forum may not make sense to the few who search it out in the future but I suspect the world will keep turning.


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## Tony Zaffuto (13 Sep 2020)

Droogs said:


> Tony you manufacture tools/machine don't you? Are they ready to go out the box or do customers need to do a DIY install. Not being cheeky, just out of interest. for a plane how much in expense would you think it would work out to to have it ready to go fully set up.



I own a powder metal part manufacturing business (metaltech-pm.com), making parts for new cars. Besides the PM process, I have in-house tool making and five CNC machining centers. Though I deal with the likes of Ford, Honda, etc, with repeat orders, a great deal of support is needed.

For the supplier of the Woodriver Planes (Peter Sefton, IIRC), I think honing of the blade and a basic setup of the chipbreaker, would be worth an additional charge of $50.00 US. Wht that amount? In the states, a machine shop's hourly rate ranges from around $45 to $75 dollars. I would figure a flattening of the blade, a honing and setting to chipbreaker, should take a bit less than an hour, for a new plane, such as the Woodriver, hence the $50. Some makes might take more, some less.

Those interested in this would be very, very few, as most newbies have chums to guide them, but there are a few that don't.


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## Andy Kev. (14 Sep 2020)

I like Tony's suggestion of dealers offering a fine fettling service for a small additional charge. It seems to me that it would offer two great advantages:

a. The dealer would be reassured that no duff goods were leaving the premises.

b. The beginner would not be baffled due to lack of experience meaning that he/she wouldn't be able to spot what needed doing to the plane.

The dealer could also produce a simple guide to using and maintaining the plane (a DVD perhaps?) and enclose it with the tool. Obviously that would only be a one off bit of work for the dealer. Additionally, the dealer's notes would inevitably include tips on sh**pening, something which may well lead to follow up orders for the relevant bits of kit.

I also reckon that such a move would further distinguish tool dealers who actually care about what they are selling and about their customers from mere peddlars of tools. If you are paying 200 plus for a plane, a charge of 10 or 15 quid would probably be a good investment for the beginner and an excellent opportunity for the dealer to generate customer loyalty. A really clever dealer would probably be so confident in such an approach and the future benefits for him that the checking of the tool and DVD would be free of charge.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> . What else would you buy that wasn't in a fit condition to be used without significant buyer work to make it functional?



Obviously you've never bought a new bandsaw.


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## MikeG. (14 Sep 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> I like Tony's suggestion of dealers offering a fine fettling service for a small additional charge..........



It's an interesting idea, but it does lead to a legal grey area, potentially, I reckon. If the purchaser is then unhappy with the tool and returns it, the dealer may be in a difficult position with the manufacturer, having altered the tool before supplying it. Is it the dealer's fault or the manufacturer's fault that the tool isn't to the customer's satisfaction? I can see dealer's being reluctant to get involved in this, unless they have a great relationship with the manufacturer, and unless they are 100% confident in their skills. I mean, why would a dealer be any good at honing a plane?


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## shed9 (14 Sep 2020)

I think the discussion is slightly being conflated with that of quality control (or lack of it) and the varying degrees of value-added reselling. In this particular case and given the overall outcome the quality of the goods leaving Wood Workers Worksop (Peter Sefton's online shop) have clearly not been subject to poor quality control. From my own experience, Peter is quite particular in what he carries in stock, typically utilising some of the same tools used in his own student workshop. If his customers want a better blade than the stock WoodRiver tools then he offers the option of the Clifton's or the Veritas planes (again with other blade options within that range). He also has DVD's that assist in getting the most from the tool (in this instance, planes); Peter Sefton Chisel and Plane Sharpening DVD

Or if you want the Youtube version, he even posted several videos for free on how to setup an actual WoodRiver plane from opening the box, cleaning the plane, honing and final setup before demonstrating cutting fine shavings; 

You can even meet him in person and he will show you how do it over a structure course; Furniture making courses

Good tool stores like Peter's are already going that extra mile, adding value to their shipped product and ultimately their customers with many options based on skill, expectation and budget. Peter is even a member on here to offer advice where he can (and learn from others). Also, as we have seen he reaches out to customers when the usual routes back to his store have for whatever reason been circumvented or delayed. Peter is a bonafide craftsman with the experience and awards to back that up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Peter Sefton fanboy and I'm not saying that the idea of tool stores offering that extra edge (no pun intended) is not the way to go, I'm just making sure that we recognise that that is exactly what has happened here.


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## Andy Kev. (14 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> It's an interesting idea, but it does lead to a legal grey area, potentially, I reckon. If the purchaser is then unhappy with the tool and returns it, the dealer may be in a difficult position with the manufacturer, having altered the tool before supplying it. Is it the dealer's fault or the manufacturer's fault that the tool isn't to the customer's satisfaction? I can see dealer's being reluctant to get involved in this, unless they have a great relationship with the manufacturer, and unless they are 100% confident in their skills. I mean, why would a dealer be any good at honing a plane?


I think that the manufacturers know who the good dealers are i.e. the ones who are prepared to put in the bit of extra work in to keep customers happy and that probably boils down to just a handful e.g. Peter Sefton, Classic Hand Tools etc.

Were there concerns of quality control, the makers of fine planes (Clifton, L-N, Veritas) could award "accredited dealer" (or something similar) status because I'm sure the manufacturers know which dealers actually care and they are of course the sort of small business where members of staff are indeed likely to know how to hone a plane or to be able to train up staff to the required standard. I suppose it boils down to the question of do the manufacturers and the dealers think that such a move would be a worthwhile investment of their time and effort. IMO it would indeed be worth the effort when you consider what people have to pay for a top end plane. Ultimately they are paying for a tool in which they can have complete confidence, something which is particularly important for beginners who will often not know whether it is the tool or themselves at fault if they are getting less than ideal results.


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## Daniel2 (14 Sep 2020)

Frankly speaking, there is no "cure" for the type of customer in question here.
It's the kind of person who, upon just passing their driving test, goes out and
buys a Ferrari, then promptly whacks it into the first lampost they meet.
Then trying to blame the seller, because the thing accelerated too quickly.
_Don't try to run, before you have learned to walk_ applies to this thread.
Even if an edge tool was supplied ready to go from the box, it will very quickly 
need a sharpening in any case, so the purchaser would still be faced with
having to learn that skill. This time period would be even more drastically
reduced in inexperienced hands. We're talking minutes here !
Whichever way we want to present it, there is no getting away from the simple
truth that, if we want to enjoy using hand tools, it will remain a prerequisite that one
masters the skill of their sharpening, from the start.


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2020)

Planes are sold to meet a price point. Adding $50 even optionally, just for sharpening and set up, will push stuff like Wood River closer to Clifton and LV territory. 

Sebastian here managed to do significant chipping to two plane blades. It is quite possible that he would have achieved that however well the planes were sharpened and set up. Sharpening a plane blade and setting them in the tool is a very basic function and there is tons of help on-line from the likes of Peter Sefton, Rob Cosmann and other credible sources.


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## Eshmiel (14 Sep 2020)

shed9 said:


> To be fair, the reseller in this instance is Peter Sefton and his reputation certainly exceeds that of merely someone adding their cut. (snip)



To be clear, I wasn't criticising Peter Sefton or any other particular tool reseller; or using the Seb case as an exampl, even. I was replying to T's suggestion of adding a surcharge to fettle a tool not coming into a tool purveyor's shop already fettled by the manufacturer. In effect I agree with him but in the form of "that should happen automatically and the price should include everything needed to offer a tool that works out of the box".

I suppose some might prefer 10 or 15 % off the normal price at a cost to themselves of the time and expertise to fettle the tool. A bit like buying a kit car. Or a kit plane, for that matter. That would be OK - if the advertising and sales promotions made it clear which versions there were (fettled or not) and what the fettling would involve. We here only know those things because of experience and talk in places like this. Newbies seem not to.

Eshmiel


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## shed9 (14 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> To be clear, I wasn't criticising Peter Sefton or any other particular tool reseller; or using the Seb case as an exampl, even.


I didn't think you were, I was just making sure we didn't lose sight of Peter being one of more end-user centric stores.


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## lurker (14 Sep 2020)

There is no point in having a ready to go plane as it just delays the need to learn how to fettle by 30 minutes use.
fancy tools are no substitute for ability.


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## Eshmiel (14 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> It's an interesting idea, but it does lead to a legal grey area, potentially, I reckon. If the purchaser is then unhappy with the tool and returns it, the dealer may be in a difficult position with the manufacturer, having altered the tool before supplying it. Is it the dealer's fault or the manufacturer's fault that the tool isn't to the customer's satisfaction? I can see dealer's being reluctant to get involved in this, unless they have a great relationship with the manufacturer, and unless they are 100% confident in their skills. I mean, why would a dealer be any good at honing a plane?



It's certainly not the customer's fault. But often, it's a customer who has all the inconvenience; and perhaps even the cost of a useless tool that wasn't, and won't ever be, fit for purpose.

Personally I believe a seller of anything should have the knowledge, skills, ability and resources to put right anything they sell that is wrong. Also that they should make significant effort to make sure that what they sell is fit for purpose before they sell it.

Some tool sellers are good at those things but some others are just middlemen passing an item from manufacturer to buyer with no added value, merely an added upcharge to make themselves a profit. If they haven't got the resources and ability to fix faulty or sub-standard goods (or prevent their sale in the first place) I personally will vote with my wallet and go elsewhere.


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## Eshmiel (14 Sep 2020)

lurker said:


> There is no point in having a ready to go plane as it just delays the need to learn how to fettle by 30 minutes use.
> fancy tools are no substitute for ability.



Let's do it with every manufactured item that needs maintenance, then. Nothing should work out of the box so that the lucky buyers have an opportunity to learn how to fix the bearings of their car engine or sharpen the blade in their lawnmower.

"30 minutes". You must be a busy lad. My plane blades keep their edge for days or even weeks following a sharpen! Mind, I don't use them 12 hours a day, 6 days a week to plane knotty spruce.

Eshmiel.


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## Daniel2 (14 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> Let's do it with every manufactured item that needs maintenance, then. Nothing should work out of the box so that the lucky buyers have an opportunity to learn how to fix the bearings of their car engine or sharpen the blade in their lawnmower.
> 
> "30 minutes". You must be a busy lad. My plane blades keep their edge for days or even weeks following a sharpen! Mind, I don't use them 12 hours a day, 6 days a week to plane knotty spruce.
> 
> Eshmiel.



I do understand the point you're trying to make Eshmiel.
But, I do consider the likes of planes and chisels as somewhat of an exception 
to the rule.


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## Eshmiel (14 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Obviously you've never bought a new bandsaw.



I bought a new Scheppach bandsaw of the huge variety some 16 years ago from Kendal Tools. They delivered it, put it together, set it up and gave me a good lesson or three about how to keep it running well. They also offered the best price for it that I could find at the time and chucked in two free blades.

More money transferred from my wallet to the till of Kendal Tools as a consequence. If they had the item I wanted, I would go to them and no other. They offered a full and proper service rather than a crate of bits on a pallet delivered at the end of the drive for a £50 delivery charge and no help whatsoever in setting it up. (My experience of buying a huge and heavy belt sander from another more well-known tool seller).

Eshmiel


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## Eshmiel (14 Sep 2020)

Daniel2 said:


> I do understand the point you're trying to make Eshmiel.
> But, I do consider the likes of planes and chisels as somewhat of an exception
> to the rule.



But why are they an exception?

Lurker believes it's a way to force buyers to learn to sharpen because they'll have to eventually - a reasonable point but with an alternative: provide them first with a sharpened plane blade so they know what one should feel and work like; and put a Peter Sefton style DVD in the box (or a link to a Youtube vid) showing how to sharpen.

Should sellers supply lawnmowers with blunt blades to force the grass cutting customers to learn how to sharpen them when it becomes necessary?

*****
My suspicion is that many not-ready tools are sold that way to cut manufacturing costs, which is to enable a price reduction, which is to attract the naive into buying them as "it was cheaper than that other brand". Unless the manufacturer and seller make that crystal clear, I feel they are conning customers.

Moreover, this "not finishing it" manufacturer ploy can easily (does, in many cases) slip into: make it all substandard to cut costs and let the customers be the suckers who are not given an even break. Not true of Quangsheng planes and their purveyors but true of a vast range of other Tool Shaped Objects flogged in their thousands up and down the land.

Eshmiel.


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## billw (14 Sep 2020)

lurker said:


> There is no point in having a ready to go plane as it just delays the need to learn how to fettle by 30 minutes use.
> fancy tools are no substitute for ability.



I think this is my conclusion. Planes and chisels will at some point in the near future after using them, require sharpening, honing, changing bevel angles, whatever. What constitutes taking a thin shaving off one piece of timber might tear out another. How can a dealer possibly set something up for all possibilities?

The fact you have to take a tool and adjust it straight out of the box to do the specific job you need it for isn't much of a surprise, and learning how to set it up straight away should be part of the expectations - in fact the more expensive a tool is the more care I think should be taken about setting it up right!


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## Daniel2 (14 Sep 2020)

Would you buy, and try to use a car, before learning to drive ?

As I have said, I agree whole heartedly with most of your analogies and examples, Eshmiel.
However, I do stick to the exceptions I noted.
BTW, a lawnmower blade is done once a year, if one is feeling generous.
And @billw added some other interesting arguments.


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## shed9 (14 Sep 2020)

billw said:


> Planes and chisels will at some point in the near future after using them, require sharpening, honing, changing bevel angles, whatever.



This (and Lurkers point) pretty much sums the situation up? Even if every single plane on the planet arrived at the customer perfect and ready to cut the finest of shavings, it is only a matter of time before that need to sharpen, tune, hone and fettle is required. The whole argument is essentially about avoiding a requirement of which by the vary purpose of the tool itself can't be avoided.

Also as stated before now, someone wandering into Quangsheng territory most probably has a reason for upping the budget on a commonly available tool and as such more than likely knows more than the average tool purchaser. Not always but then the comment above makes that moot. I'd also throw Japanese chisels into the mix, how many people have been caught out finding they have to fit the hoop, handles or ferrules themselves; but yet again if your buying those tools, its fairly reasonable to assume some (even limited) internet homework.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> I bought a new Scheppach bandsaw of the huge variety some 16 years ago from Kendal Tools. They delivered it, put it together, set it up and gave me a good lesson or three about how to keep it running well. They also offered the best price for it that I could find at the time and chucked in two free blades.
> 
> More money transferred from my wallet to the till of Kendal Tools as a consequence. If they had the item I wanted, I would go to them and no other. They offered a full and proper service rather than a crate of bits on a pallet delivered at the end of the drive for a £50 delivery charge and no help whatsoever in setting it up. (My experience of buying a huge and heavy belt sander from another more well-known tool seller).
> 
> Eshmiel


16 years ago.
(Incidentally that's where mine came from - I had to practically rebuild it before it was usable, even to the point of manufacturing replacement parts. Not that this was their fault, of course.)


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## Blackswanwood (14 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> What else would you buy that wasn't in a fit condition to be used without significant buyer work to make it functional?
> 
> Eshmiel



My wife feels she acquired me on this basis ...


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## akirk (14 Sep 2020)

As someone who has zero knowledge of these things, and is a definite beginner...
- I had no idea that in buying a plane it would need setting up / fettling...
- I bought an old Stanley 4 1/2 from ebay - a part of the blurb that attracted me was that it had been set up (and a chippy friend has tested it and said it is very good!)
- I bought a new Stanley block plane, and assumed that the ebay plane had only had to be set up as it was old / second hand, so I would be fine with the new one - I now know better!

point is - that when you start something like this, you will come from your own individual perspective - for me, I know that I don't know anything - hence I have been reading this forum / digging out online tutorials / etc. - which is partly how I learn something new (I would also go on a course if any were running!) but I can totally see that someone who has more experience of general DIY, who decides to do some woodworking, may buy a tool such as a plane without realising that it needs setting up - after all they may have a garage full of tools that you just buy and use... if they also have a basic understanding of how to use a plane (push along wood, shavings come off!) then there is little reason why they would go looking for instruction or clarification... and so misunderstandings can take place...

I think it is simply a matter of communication - in the same way in which there has recently been more clarity about power tools coming with a battery / charger, or without - and labelling them as 'bare' (used to be misleading on Amazon etc. as sellers used to show photos of the tools in operation, so it was assumed that a battery came with the tool), so it would be simple to label which tools need set up or are ready to use straight out of the box. It is easy to see where assumptions can come from on both sides (the buyer not realising / the seller assuming the buyer knows...) so something as simple as that information would cost no extra but would remove any misunderstanding...

I will now go and study how to set up planes!


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## TheTiddles (14 Sep 2020)

We are really off topic now but seeing as the topic is defined by a single letter, I guess we have some latitude...

I think the service being proposed is unlikely to be taken up as it presumes people are willing to pay for someone to do something they should know how to do themselves. That said I see people asking for who is good to repair a punctured bicycle tyre all the time, so they do exist.

I’ve always thought you can be arrogant if you are seriously good, or ignorant if you never want to get any better. But you can’t be both, or you will never amount to anything (as has been mentioned already). So if you buy new tools, take them apart and reassemble them incorrectly then get in a huff with the advice of people who know better, this extra service is ideal for you. The saying about a fool and their money being easily parted springs to mind

Aidan


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## Tony Zaffuto (14 Sep 2020)

No easy solution and we're talking about a very small percentage of purchasers of new tools. What lead Sebastian to this forum in the first place? Before purchasing the Woodriver plane, how much did he know about handplanes? Wht isn't he contributing to this discussion?


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2020)

This link takes you in in the middle for some reason, but go back to the beginning. People can always find fault with it but it's a very good guide even if you're try to set up a new plane.


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## Eshmiel (14 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> 16 years ago.
> (Incidentally that's where mine came from - I had to practically rebuild it before it was usable, even to the point of manufacturing replacement parts. Not that this was their fault, of course.)



Oh yes?  

Eshmiel


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## Eshmiel (14 Sep 2020)

shed9 said:


> This (and Lurkers point) pretty much sums the situation up? Even if every single plane on the planet arrived at the customer perfect and ready to cut the finest of shavings, it is only a matter of time before that need to sharpen, tune, hone and fettle is required. The whole argument is essentially about avoiding a requirement of which by the vary purpose of the tool itself can't be avoided.
> 
> Also as stated before now, someone wandering into Quangsheng territory most probably has a reason for upping the budget on a commonly available tool and as such more than likely knows more than the average tool purchaser. Not always but then the comment above makes that moot. I'd also throw Japanese chisels into the mix, how many people have been caught out finding they have to fit the hoop, handles or ferrules themselves; but yet again if your buying those tools, its fairly reasonable to assume some (even limited) internet homework.



It's certainly the case that any woodworking tool will need maintenance; and the necessity of sharpening planes & chisels is unavoidable. Myself I'm coming 'round to Tony Z's point - perhaps the compromise would be for retailers to offer an additional service to initially set up a chisel or plane blade, for an extra charge, so that a newby could at least see how it works when made ready to work? 

As various posters have pointed out, there is no single simple set up of a blade for all purposes so a retailer could offer not just to make a dull factory blade flat-backed and sharp but also cambered, with a certain cutting edge angle and so forth. Such a service might also include some paper or web-based lessons on how to do it and when/why. In fact, if you buy a Veritas edge tool, you'll find quite a lot of that kind of info with it on a small (sometimes large) leaflet or booklet; and the blades come sharp enough to use if not ideal for various special purposes.

But to sell an essentially non-working tool with no indication of how to get it working seems inappropriate in a market where a very large proportion of customers will be naive newbies. There is a responsibility of any tool owner to learn how to use aright - but perhaps the question is: what degree of responsibility does a tool seller have to enable, encourage and support that?

Many (perhaps most) tools have a user manual. Many of those user manuals are very comprehensive. I have a Veritas router table with a whole book devoted to it's set up and uses; and I once had a similar book that came with a Tormek. Most low and mid cost planes have no such manual. ......

******
At bottom, it seems unsurprising that the web is full of edge tool buyers complaining that their purchase doesn't perform the function they bought it for. _Something_ about the selling process of those tools needs improving.

Eshmiel


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## MikeK (14 Sep 2020)

I'm entering this recent discussion late, but I don't think the manufacturer or retailer has any responsibility to ensure the buyer knows how to use the product being purchased. I have never been offered driving lessons when I bought a vehicle; although, I was always asked to show my driver's license. When I bought my Viking lawn mower from the distributor, the sales rep didn't ask if I knew how to use it or ask if I wanted help assembling it. He did have his son load the box in the back of my truck, but that was the end of his involvement with the mower. For what it's worth, I sharpen my mower blades at least three times a year. The spare blade I bought from the Viking distributor was not sharp out of the box, and even had a label on the box stating the blade required sharpening before use.

Without exception, all of the Lie Nielsen planes I bought over the past five years could not be used immediately after being unboxed. The tender mercies the postal clerks and mail transportation process bestowed upon the packages meant some items were loose, and sometimes completely separated (not broken) from each plane. I am confident that the planes were intact and ready for action when they were lovingly wrapped and packed at the factory, but it's a long journey from Maine to my house in Germany. Fortunately, I did not have any expectations that the planes would arrive without being jostled about and I didn't need to consult anyone to figure out how to put them back together.

The Number 1 and 5-1/2 LN planes I ordered last month arrived today and I will open the boxes later tonight. The main box doesn't rattle, so there might not be any separated pieces, but I'll find out later how well they survived the trip. If I'm not too tired after I finish the yard work, I'll take a few shavings from some oak or beech with the factory edge on the irons.


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## Droogs (14 Sep 2020)

MikeK, you've bought a #1 plane. Are you secretly running a child sweatshop


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## akirk (14 Sep 2020)

MikeK said:


> I'm entering this recent discussion late, but I don't think the manufacturer or retailer has any responsibility to ensure the buyer knows how to use the product being purchased...



Agree - we are adults who can take responsibility for our own actions... but...



MikeK said:


> The spare blade I bought from the Viking distributor was not sharp out of the box, and even had a label on the box stating the blade required sharpening before use...



this is a good example of communication giving clarity - takes little effort for manufacturer / reseller, and avoids doubt - also give the reseller less grief as people are under no false impression!


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## billw (14 Sep 2020)

akirk said:


> this is a good example of communication giving clarity - takes little effort for manufacturer / reseller, and avoids doubt - also give the reseller less grief as people are under no false impression!



Go on - find a lawnmower forum where they consistently argue about the primary bevel angle of a mower blade. I dare you


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## MikeK (14 Sep 2020)

I forgot to mention...the blade that came with the mower wasn't sharp either. It was in the same type of box as the spare blade I bought separately and packed under the mower deck with the wheels. I have no idea what the average customer is supposed to do with the mower once it is home and assembled.

I exchange the blade when I notice the edges of the freshly cut grass are starting to tear instead of being cut. The torn edges turn brown and my neighbors point and laugh as they walk by.


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## MikeK (14 Sep 2020)

Droogs said:


> MikeK, you've bought a #1 plane. Are you secretly running a child sweatshop


Sweatshop sounds so negative. I prefer to call it a cottage industry.


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## MikeG. (14 Sep 2020)

I do appreciate the mods attempting to revive this thread by renaming it and putting an explanatory first post in place of what Seb left. Well done. I'm just not 100% sure that the new title reflects the contents, which was more about a chipped/ damaged iron rather than about whether or not it was sharp.


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2020)

Thanks moderator for putting at least a little sense back into the early part of this thread.


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## Just4Fun (14 Sep 2020)

MikeK said:


> I have never been offered driving lessons when I bought a vehicle


Me neither, but then I have never bought a high-performance sports car. Exotic car manufacturers do offer lessons, for example Porsche.


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## Andy Kev. (15 Sep 2020)

Having thought a bit more about this, it seems to me that dealers could offer a service while not having to greatly put themselves out. These days if you order something from a dealer, you get entered into their computer. Thus they could easily confirm if somebody was buying a plane from them for the first time. In such cases they could pop a copy of their own DVD on how to use planes and sharpen the blades in with the order. (From a commercial POV that would be a good way of advertising the sharpening kit which they offer.) Additionally they could sharpen the blade of this initial purchase. We all know that that doesn't take very long.

The dealer(s) who would be prepared to put in this bit of effort would probably reap the reward of generating a base of regular customers. Win-win as far as I can see.

Incidentally, Dictum in Germany puts a voucher in with its orders which entitles the owner to one free sharpening of whatever it is that they have bought. While that is superficially a nice bit of customer service, it seems to me to be missing the point because nobody who can sharpen would ever use it, nor does it do anything to get them sharpening. OTH the above model makes a lot of sense to me.


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## pe2dave (15 Sep 2020)

Re video, I note he doesn't take any sharp corners off the body itself?


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2020)

The heels and toes of all mine are rounded off, but I seem to remember the wisdom of taking the corners off the sides being open to debate.


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## Bacms (15 Sep 2020)

I am really not sure the charge would do much as, yes you may get the plane functional, but you have learned nothing about the process for the next time it gets blunt. 

Putting instructions or a link to a video of what to do with that tool when it arrives and keep it in top condition would be more useful in my opinion but how many people actually bother to read the documentation? I work in software development and I can guarantee that despite the huge effort some companies put into it you still get plenty of "problems" that are solved by pointing the customer at the manual.


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## AJB Temple (15 Sep 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> Having thought a bit more about this, it seems to me that dealers could offer a service while not having to greatly put themselves out. These days if you order something from a dealer, you get entered into their computer. Thus they could easily confirm if somebody was buying a plane from them for the first time. In such cases they could pop a copy of their own DVD on how to use planes and sharpen the blades in with the order. (From a commercial POV that would be a good way of advertising the sharpening kit which they offer.) Additionally they could sharpen the blade of this initial purchase. We all know that that doesn't take very long.
> 
> The dealer(s) who would be prepared to put in this bit of effort would probably reap the reward of generating a base of regular customers. Win-win as far as I can see.
> 
> Incidentally, Dictum in Germany puts a voucher in with its orders which entitles the owner to one free sharpening of whatever it is that they have bought. While that is superficially a nice bit of customer service, it seems to me to be missing the point because nobody who can sharpen would ever use it, nor does it do anything to get them sharpening. OTH the above model makes a lot of sense to me.




Sadly, the world has gone on-line and most people shop by price. Your model made sense 20 years ago but not now. There is precious little dealer loyalty any more because price rules. Once you know what you are doing, and can sharpen / assemble tools, there is no added value beyond going for the cheapest seller of the brand you want.


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## Andy Kev. (15 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Sadly, the world has gone on-line and most people shop by price. Your model made sense 20 years ago but not now. There is precious little dealer loyalty any more because price rules. Once you know what you are doing, and can sharpen / assemble tools, there is no added value beyond going for the cheapest seller of the brand you want.


I'm sure that you're right in terms of any mass market goods. However, in terms of things like high end hand planes, how many different dealers is one likely to use? Price difference is probably not going to be an incentive as nobody significantly discounts Clifton, Veritas or L-N planes. What I suspect that adds up to is that specialist dealers have a somewhat better chance of building up a relationship with their customers than would e.g. Aldi. 

From what I've seen on here, Peter Sefton seems to have managed that. You can't buy a good reputation or a good track record.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2020)

Bacms said:


> ... you still get plenty of "problems" that are solved by pointing the customer at the manual.



RTFM is a favourite in our house. Read the ******* manual!


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## Eshmiel (15 Sep 2020)

Bacms said:


> I am really not sure the charge would do much as, yes you may get the plane functional, but you have learned nothing about the process for the next time it gets blunt.



You'd have learnt what a sharp blade in a plane feels like to use - a benchmark for testing your own future efforts to sharpen. Knowing what "sharp" feels like is the number one hurdle for those trying to learn to sharpen.



Bacms said:


> Putting instructions or a link to a video of what to do with that tool when it arrives and keep it in top condition would be more useful in my opinion but how many people actually bother to read the documentation? I work in software development and I can guarantee that despite the huge effort some companies put into it you still get plenty of "problems" that are solved by pointing the customer at the manual.



Those who don't RTFM are surely the most in need of a sharp plane out of the box ....? And maybe also that Dictum sharpening offer.

********
Personally I don't think it's so easy as many here make out to learn to sharpen a plane blade as well as it can be sharpened; or to configure the process to achieve the more esoteric features such as various cambers, back bevels and the like. There's good reason that people like David Charlesworth offer detailed courses and DVDs to teach the process - along with all the other tweaking of a plane to make it work well.

Many such as thee and me will now be adept at dealing with edge tool maintenance, improvement and change. But is it really so simple to learn all the necessary procedures - to get all the necessary understanding - as some Youtube guru men make out? These guru men forget that they themselves probably spent a lot of hours learning it all before boiling it down to a 15 minute vid. Many commenting here will have been shown how to sharpen by an expert in a commercial environment. Most plane buyers have no such helpmeet.

It's a huge lesson all by itself to know how a plane ought to function before you attempt to make one work by learning to sharpen et al. That lesson should be in the box, in the form of a plane that's ready to use, as with 99.9% of other sold goods.

I'll repeat:

* There's too much noise about unsharp plane blades in new planes to ignore it as just stupid and ignorant new users.

* One can make a thousand analogies with other tools that come ready to use and which would be deemed unfit if they weren't; with far fewer cases where a customer expects to have to finish the manufacturing process herself.

********
"_Many bicycle buyers can't even mend a puncture and will have to learn if they don't want to have to call the taxi of shame"_. Should we sell them all bikes with holes in the tyres & tubes to force them to learn, then? Perhaps we could rust up the chains and wear off the gear cogs too? How they will learn to maintain their bike (but not necessarily how to ride it).

Eshmiel


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## Tony Zaffuto (15 Sep 2020)

It is getting hard to follow this thread, without a written scorecard (said in jest), but there are bits of truth in every post. Maybe Eshmiel hit on it best of all, with his phrase "...unsharp plane blades...".

Venturing into any endeavor requires a bit of instruction, whether your teacher is in person & very experienced or done virually. Who bears the burden for the success of those venturing into new challenges? Hint: the person taking the journey. Did the new Woodriver plane work right out of the box? We don't know. Did it work after being sorted out by a forum member? Yes!

So...how do we help newbies get from A to B? Maybe more burden needs placed on the newbie to at least put their hiking boots on instead of trying to walk over hot coals, barefooted?


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2020)

Don't forget also that many of us learned to sharpen things at school, which is an opportunity lost to many younger people.


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## Bod (15 Sep 2020)

Tis, a nice idea that chisels, and planes be sharp out of the box, be it dealer or manufacturers sharpening.
What happens, as in this case, the new owner trys to do the impossible with the tool.
The number of planes I've seen where it has clearly been used to try to plane down a painted door, with a nail hidden under the paint. Makes me wonder how many electric planes are sitting in land-fill for the want of new blades.

Bod.


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## MikeG. (15 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Don't forget also that many of us learned to sharpen things at school, which is an opportunity lost to many younger people.



I didn't get that. I just saw my dad use an oilstone when I was an 8 or 10 year old.....and trying to remember what he did 10 years later when I got my first tools led to about 5 years of frustration and self learning. The penny finally dropped when I remembered seeing him feel the back of the edge, and worked out that he must have been feeling for something. I worked out eventually that this was for a burr, and when creating a burr became the focus of my sharpening, I finally managed a consistent result. Ten minutes with someone who knew what he was doing could have saved me 5 years of frustration.


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## Andy Kev. (15 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Don't forget also that many of us learned to sharpen things at school, which is an opportunity lost to many younger people.


I'm glad that you posted that.

I got to school just after woodwork was ditched as an option. Subsequently I made the odd thing from bits of melamine-coated (if I remember rightly) chipboard and the odd bit of plywood which I got cut to size in the timber yard and my "woodworking" consisted of screwing them together.

When I started woodworking about ten years ago, I was clueless but determined. My previous experience of making things was the above plus assembling Airfix plane kits when I was a lad. It dawned on me the other day that one of the most satisfying things about woodworking is the first time that you end up with a few parts which started life together in the same rough-sawn plank and end up fitting together as well, if not better, than in any Airfix kit.

Getting to that point is hard work if you know nobody who can show you and if you can't find the time to get on courses. I didn't and couldn't and so it was a matter of DVDs (thank you Mr Charlesworth!) and books (thank you Lost Art Press!) and of course this forum - thanks to many of you! 

Those with expertise often forget how clueless a beginner can be. When I decided that I needed my first plane, I went to the Dictum shop in Munich and told the bloke that I was a total beginner. He was friendly enough and pointed me at the plane display and a clamped piece of wood and said that I could help myself. After a few minutes he walked by to see how I was getting on and said the German equivalent of, "Bloody Hell! You really are a beginner, aren't you?" "Yep", says I, "never had a plane in my hands before."

Then he became helpful in a way more suitable to me and I left with a Veritas LAJ, which has since proved to me that his advice was good.

About a month ago a friend of mine expressed an interest in learning about woodwork. I put a No 4 in her hands and guided her attack on a piece of American poplar. I swear she learned more in half an hour than I did in my first three months. There's nothing quite as efficient as having somebody there who can point you in the right direction.

I think that the point of all this is to perhaps think again when we are inclined to say, "You can do X in a couple of minutes". Yes you can, _once you know how_ but before you know how, you can't do it at all.


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## Andy Kev. (15 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> I didn't get that. I just saw my dad use an oilstone when I was an 8 or 10 year old.....and trying to remember what he did 10 years later when I got my first tools led to about 5 years of frustration and self learning. The penny finally dropped when I remembered seeing him feel the back of the edge, and worked out that he must have been feeling for something. I worked out eventually that this was for a burr, and when creating a burr became the focus of my sharpening, I finally managed a consistent result. Ten minutes with someone who knew what he was doing could have saved me 5 years of frustration.


You beat me to it!


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## MikeG. (15 Sep 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> You beat me to it!



You went into a bit more detail.


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## AJB Temple (15 Sep 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> I'm glad that you posted that.
> 
> I got to school just after woodwork was ditched as an option. Subsequently I made the odd thing from bits of melamine-coated (if I remember rightly) chipboard and the odd bit of plywood which I got cut to size in the timber yard and my "woodworking" consisted of screwing them together.
> 
> ...



You are right. This is why I offered to show Sebastian how to sharpen and use a plane, and try the likes of Clifton and some old planes, versus his Wood River. He would have left with enough knowledge not to screw it up in future. My dad taught me how to sharpen. His dad taught him. Now we have You Tube.


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## Bacms (15 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Now we have You Tube.



I think it does come down to youtube. Which, although it does open up learning for a lot of folks that would otherwise not have a way of doing it, provides no feedback when you are actually are on your own as a beginner you have no idea what is important and what isn't. And as been already mention if you want fast progress, which again youtube and the world seems to demand, then there is no substitute to having someone looking over you should and going, wait...


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## AJB Temple (15 Sep 2020)

Half the problem is we don't always know what we don't know. Some people compound this by trying to give the impression they do know, when it is evident they don't.


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## Fidget (15 Sep 2020)

Back when I had access to a friend's workshop about 15 years ago and rekindled my love for butchering wood I made quite a few bits of furniture, tables, chairs, even beds which I still use and think are of an ok level of workmanship, it was all made using only power tools. I couldn't use a hand plane at all because I didn't know how, or how to sharpen it. It is only when I joined this forum 3 years ago when my present workshop was being built and started lurking, reading all the threads I could and marvelling at the knowledge that was being imparted that I started trying to use hand tools more. The sharpening threads were always _interesting!_

Now I have a few old planes which are a joy to use.

So, I suppose, Thank You to all the members here who share your knowledge.

Doesn't help the OP though!


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## MikeG. (15 Sep 2020)

Fidget said:


> .......Doesn't help the OP though!



You know, I'm not so sure.

I reckon he was taken aback by the responses he got, and he must have seen that he didn't actually know what he was doing with a plane. Now that he has one or two planes, and has had some time with a kindly forum member being shown sharpening and setting up, he'll perhaps realise that A/ helping someone isn't criticism, it's just help, and B/ that we were all saying the same thing....that he has some basic skills to learn. If he's honest with himself he knows this already. So a couple of weeks of up-and-down interaction with this forum may have given him a 5 year head start on the likes of me and others here, who had to work this stuff out for themselves.

Turns out he doesn't have a bench. Having been with someone who knows how to use a plane, he'll now understand the importance of having one. So, when he gets a new bench, he'll have some planes and the benefit of some guidance on sharpening and setting up.......all of which is a head start into hand tool woodworking that he wouldn't have had if he hadn't posted here. He may not have enjoyed the experience, but he'll benefit from it enormously, I reckon, even if he doesn't know it himself yet.


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## akirk (15 Sep 2020)

Bacms said:


> I think it does come down to youtube. Which, although it does open up learning for a lot of folks that would otherwise not have a way of doing it, provides no feedback when you are actually are on your own as a beginner you have no idea what is important and what isn't. And as been already mention if you want fast progress, which again youtube and the world seems to demand, then there is no substitute to having someone looking over you shoulder and going, wait...


Agree - and for someone like me - just starting out, it is a challenge to know where to turn to learn - there are no courses running due to Covid and youtube doesn't give that feedback - not sure whether you can hire in a personal trainer in woodwork  but maybe that is the way forward?! I think that youtube is probably the only current option, but it will be a slower learning pace...


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## MikeG. (15 Sep 2020)

Be ware of youtube, though, because there are many more videos of people doing it wrong than there are of people doing it anywhere near right. You really are in the right place here, akirk, if you're seeking woodworking advice, and help in navigating youtube's pitfalls.


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## akirk (15 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> Be ware of youtube, though, because there are many videos of people doing it wrong than there are of people doing it anywhere near right. You really are in the right place here, akirk, if you're seeking woodworking advice, and help in navigating youtube's pitfalls.


It is tricky - but as you say, there is some good honest to the point advice on here which is hopefully guiding me...
at the moment I am spending time on Paul Sellers' websites - he seems to have respect from others, and has a lot of very good material from beginners - so I am hoping that time spent following his guidance will teach me the basics - not as good as finding someone to teach me, but that is not possible for now, so am doing what I can!

Interesting post from him in his blog today (about budgets):


Paul Sellers said:


> Make a list of what you feel is indeed important. We can procrastinate and put off making because we feel we need to have a mass of power equipment, special hand tools, a designer workshop and some kind of over-massive workbench built from a seasoned hardwood. None of this is really true. The list should be headed with what do you want in becoming a woodworker? Nice tools, cleaned up repaired, restored and ready to go or a lineup from prestigious makers from around the globe that, well just need nothing to do to them. In my world, restoring a vintage Stanley #4 and 5 means immediate training in the workings and maintenance of bench planes. Strip them down and pout them together a few times and you will have it down in a heartbeat. Use the plane to work the wood and you will soon be tweaking the leavers and adjustments as though you were born with one in your hand. This then of course, goes for all the other tools. So you will see that it is not just that buying secondhand saves on cost but more that the tool becomes the vehicle through which you then learn about how the plane functions, how to handle it and how to mainain it which of course, includes its idiosyncracies.



Seems very appropriate to this whole thread!


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## AJB Temple (15 Sep 2020)

It's funny really as the OP started out in his first (deleted) thread seeking advice on a planer / thicknesser (for which there was no adequate power supply). I think he said he had been woodworking for a couple of years, so I guess many of just assumed he must have a bench = even if it's just an assembly table. 

I suspect that many come to woodworking and think they need shiny new tools and machines. As we get older, unless we are in the trade (I am not) then probably we pare down what we actually use to a few favourite tools. I really don't care about new stuff now.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Half the problem is we don't always know what we don't know. Some people compound this by trying to give the impression they do know, when it is evident they don't.


Many moons ago I said to a friend that practice makes perfect. He said no, perfect practice makes perfect - it's no practicing something that's not right in the first place.


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## Andy Kev. (15 Sep 2020)

akirk said:


> Agree - and for someone like me - just starting out, it is a challenge to know where to turn to learn - there are no courses running due to Covid and youtube doesn't give that feedback - not sure whether you can hire in a personal trainer in woodwork  but maybe that is the way forward?! I think that youtube is probably the only current option, but it will be a slower learning pace...


I found David Charlesworth‘s DVDs to be extremely helpful as they are so precisely detailed. Mind you, you won’t go wrong with Mr Sellars. I‘d also recommend The Essential Woodworker book by Robert Wearing (see the reviews section above).


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## akirk (15 Sep 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> I found David Charlesworth‘s DVDs to be extremely helpful as they are so precisely detailed. Mind you, you won’t go wrong with Mr Sellars. I‘d also recommend The Essential Woodworker book by Robert Wearing (see the reviews section above).


Thank you - will look at those!


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## MikeG. (15 Sep 2020)

David Charlesworth, in my view, over complicates matters for a beginner, and is somewhat ponderous. He's great, but he isn't where I would send a beginner. You won't go wrong with Sellers. DC is a member here.


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## AJB Temple (15 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Many moons ago I said to a friend that practice makes perfect. He said no, perfect practice makes perfect - it's no practicing something that's not right in the first place.


Indeed. Have studied classical piano for most of my life off and on. At one point I was studying for a performance diploma, and an excellent Russian concert pianist was my tutor. Evgenia Startseva. She was very strict (Russian musicians are all nuts - the good ones were in academies from aged about 4). Her view was that everything had to be perfect: notes and timing and expression (not necessarily tempo) right from the outset. She said that many people practice a lot and mostly they are practising their mistakes. 

Perhaps this is why it takes some people thousands of hours to learn things (the 10,000 hours myth). 

The really big lesson for me though was that however hard I tried I was never going to be as good as her!


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## MikeK (15 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> David Charlesworth, in my view, over complicates matters for a beginner, and is somewhat ponderous. He's great, but he isn't where I would send a beginner. You won't go wrong with Sellers. DC is a member here.



Probably true for the videos, but as a former student of David Charlesworth, I think a beginner would be just as comfortable attending one of his courses as would an advanced woodworker looking for a new perspective or refresher. His courses are not a "gentleman's course", and fastidious note taking is required, at least for me. I was fortunate to be his only student for two courses last year (Tool Tuning and Dovetailing) and one of two students for the other two courses earlier this year (Mortise & Tenon and Drawer Making).

I had never made a dovetail joint, mortise, tenon, or drawer prior to taking David's courses. I am very pleased with the quality of training I received and the output of my efforts. I am also confident that the rate of my progress would not be the same only by watching videos or reading books. 

For the Tool Tuning course, I told David to assume I knew nothing other than which direction the pointy end goes most of the time. He obliged me and the first of five days was spent in lecture and demonstration of the structure of the various planes and chisels. The second day was the start of turning my "ready to use" LN planes and chisels into finely tuned instruments.

I looked for similar courses elsewhere, but did not find any that would be economical for me since I would be shipping my tools and flying back and forth. One day I'll total up the cost of the four courses, but it won't matter because the money was well spent and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.


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## Eshmiel (15 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> David Charlesworth, in my view, over complicates matters for a beginner, and is somewhat ponderous. He's great, but he isn't where I would send a beginner. You won't go wrong with Sellers. DC is a member here.



David Charlesworth does not over complicate things - he explains carefully, in detail and with great clarity many of the reasons behind the processes that some just copy and use with little intelligence. He is a fine antidote to many of the prattling over-excited Youtube "gurus" who are more concerned with their personal image than with the substance of the information they're supposedly imparting.

Mr C does not assume that newbies coming to learn somehow already know 90% of what he knows. He understands that many will find even the simplest of plane-fettling things mysterious and unfamiliar at first. Mr Sellars and some others have a tendency to suggest that it's all ever so easy because "look how easily I do it". That's a serious failure of empathy.

************
Perhaps this website already has lots of sharpening info? Nevertheless, here are a couple of links worth looking at. They're free and informed information about sharpening. Some are quite long and detailed, which indicates that the business of sharpening is not as simple and easy as some would have it. There are many other such sources of sharpening information. In general, a written document with lots of diagrams is far more informative than a 15 minute video, half of which is nothing but a demo of the "personality" doing his thing.





__





Sharpening chisel and plane blades by Friedrich Kollenrott


Sharpening chisel and plane blades by Friedrich Kollenrott. These instructions are intended to help all those who struggle to keep their tools at peak sharpness or who think there must be a better way of keeping them sharp.



www.fine-tools.com









__





Woodwork Techniques






www.inthewoodshop.com





Myself I learnt a great deal from Derek Cohen and David Charlesworth when first starting out. I have the Charlesworth books which I found sufficient without the need for a course or DVD. I learnt many other bits and bobs through attendance at forums such as this. Just lately I learnt that unicorn - another worthy improvement to a long history of learnt additions about sharpening from investigators happy to impart what they've learnt from their careful experiments and practice.

There are differences in sharpening techniques and configurations. Myself I have come to like the back bevel as well as the micro-bevel. Derek Cohen is not so much in favour and uses the hollow grind from a wheel as the basis of his further honing, for example. Many different techniques and configurations can produce "sharp". There are different kinds of sharpness, though; and different ways to get to them.

None of them are as simple as waving the blade at an oilstone "like I was taught 40 years ago by some old curmudgeon". (My own least favourite variety of sharpening advice).

Eshmiel


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## Andy Kev. (15 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> David Charlesworth, in my view, over complicates matters for a beginner, and is somewhat ponderous. He's great, but he isn't where I would send a beginner. You won't go wrong with Sellers. DC is a member here.


I know exactly why you suggest that he overcomplicates things but I beg to differ.

In my opinion what he does is to take every action which a woodworker needs to do to get precise results. Because he is committing it to DVD this means that the films give the initial impression that the work proceeds more slowly than it does in real life. I have found that what actually happens is that one puts his teaching points into practice carefully at first and then one speeds up as competence increases. Secondly, experience teaches when you do not need to do all that he says: for instance one side of a board may need Charlesworthian attention to detail whereas the other just has to look good.

I bought his DVD on chisel techniques when I was about six weeks into woodworking and that resulted in a literally overnight transformation from utter rubbish to acceptable. With further practice and occasional revisits to the DVDs I got up to around competent. That's why I would recommend them.


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## MikeG. (15 Sep 2020)

I said for a beginner, and obviously, I'm talking about his videos because I've not been on a course. Any course. 

As it happens, I am tutoring a beginner, and he certainly gets more from Sellers' videos than form DC's, _at this stage_ of his development. After a bit more experience, I'm sure he'll get a lot from DC, who, as I said, is wonderful. I just don't happen to think he paces it right for a beginner, and that there is a danger of giving people too much information on day one of a life-long skill-building experience. Andy and Mike have views that vary from this, and that's fine.


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## Bacms (15 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> It's funny really as the OP started out in his first (deleted) thread seeking advice on a planer/thicknesser (for which there was no adequate power supply). I think he said he had been woodworking for a couple of years, so I guess many of just assumed he must have a bench = even if it's just an assembly table.
> 
> I suspect that many come to woodworking and think they need shiny new tools and machines. As we get older, unless we are in the trade (I am not) then probably we pare down what we actually use to a few favourite tools. I really don't care about new stuff now.



It is funny you mention that and I am not sure that keeping mention the OP does any good at this stage. But, he did mention he had previously built stuff with plywood but he had recently bought a new house and was hoping to build an entire house of furniture for it instead of spending money on cheap/Ikea furniture. However, he was in shock at the investment he would have to make to buy to even be able to buy anything as he seemed to truly believe you need a workshop full of machinery as was either in the process or had just bought quite a lot of it.


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## Peter Sefton (15 Sep 2020)

Spent today showing my new full time students grinding and chisel preparation techniques, tomorrow onto planes sharpening and set up. I used to run a two day sharpening courses but prefer running courses that include sharpening and tool use within a project setting, I feel these skills go hand in hand. We are running on reduced numbers and a reduced timetable to look after our staff and students as much as possible in the current climate. I have a couple of You tube videos out there and spent a couple of Summers filming videos covering a lot of these techniques in detail, I was working with Artisan Media who worked with Paul Sellers in the early years and David Charlesworth more recently. My videos are available on our website and Amazon, sorry can't give them away  Paul, David and I all use different sharpening techniques and I tried to show a range of stones, guides and blades to cover as many bases as possible. I think there is lots of good information out there including a range of videos on You Tube from Rob Cosman who has been involved with the development of the WoodRiver plane range. Our WoodRiver plane customers get a free subscription the Rob Cosman's online tutorials to assist them in their own workshops, here is one of Rob's videos on WoodRiver setup.
We have had just about every plane brand through the workshops over the past 11 years, all of which can be improved out of the box (or ruined) Skill takes time and practice to build.
This video should help new plane users 


Cheers Peter


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## Ttrees (15 Sep 2020)

I'm curious Peter, since you are adamant to be comprehensive, are you having any thoughts on providing a bench for sale, maybe something like what Cosman is supplying to the veterans?
That's all that was missing from the equation...
Sounds expensive to achieve, but impossible?

I think no-one's video's compare to Charlesworth's precision planing video.
I can't remember which one, but I believe he has made new ones.
This one was from an exibition that I watched, and he asked the folks there for guesses as to how much of a dip he intentionally removed.
A great help this video was, and to this day, I've never seen anything that came remotely close.
Charlesworth will make you understand, can describe things with such clarity, better than if you were someone else, in person.
*Honesty* over some sort of showmanship illusion is important,
and I see a lot of "get her done" kind of stuff from other folks which will lead to errors aplenty.

All the best
Tom


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## billw (15 Sep 2020)

I have to say I learn better by doing than watching which is why I suspect I'll end up doing a year-long course in 2021 rather than being glued to YouTube. Learning things here has the benefit/cost (delete as appropriate) of having many varying views and opinions - I'd tick the benefit column personally but others may find it confusing and contradictory.


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## Ttrees (15 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The heels and toes of all mine are rounded off, but I seem to remember the wisdom of taking the corners off the sides being open to debate.



Yep I would be one in that category, and think that video is the pits.
The first problem is the lap.
The lap must be smaller than the area of the item being worked in question, this is crucial if you wish to lap a longer plane to flatten it and not just polish it.

My next issue is referring to that "tip" that he suggests.
If one want's to know how use a double iron plane like a Bailey well,
for any timber they may encounter.
That approach of working the long edges of the plane,
especially if one had fancy abrasive, may well lead to the same 
outcome as with an iron with a concave grind on a plane would.
So I suggest figuring out what that's like, if you want to know, as its a lot less effort to fix a profile on an iron, than to fix a profile on a plane sole.

Just felt I should mention this in-case the owner of that bargain Bedrock decides to try it.
Important on that particular plane for instance.

Tom


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## TheTiddles (15 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Many moons ago I said to a friend that practice makes perfect. He said no, perfect practice makes perfect - it's no practicing something that's not right in the first place.


My dad said something similar, you learn from your mistakes and practice makes perfect... one of those has to be wrong! 

In my professional capacity, it is astonishing how many people use the defence “We’ve always done it that way” without ever considering that perhaps... they’ve always done it wrong!


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## billw (15 Sep 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> In my professional capacity, it is astonishing how many people use the defence “We’ve always done it that way” without ever considering that perhaps... they’ve always done it wrong!



Or even why they've done it at all!


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## Trevanion (15 Sep 2020)

You can also have pretty rubbish tutors/mentors that can hinder your progress more than help it, to quote AJB:



AJB Temple said:


> Half the problem is we don't always know what we don't know. Some people compound this by trying to give the impression they do know, when it is evident they don't.



This can also apply to the people around you that attempt to educate you, it's hard for a complete beginner to differentiate between someone who humbly has decades of hard-earned experience or some braggart who thinks he knows everything about what he's doing despite only having ten minutes of playing about. It's easy for someone for a bit of knowledge to spot the Dunnock amungst the Sparrows but for your average everyday punter "It's just a bird like any other" which they'd be wrong because the Dunnock is definitely the most interesting one there by far.

I like old books written by the absolute masters of their craft, some of the most precious information I have has been gleaned from old books that would've been snubbed as outdated and irrelevant. For example, comparing a spindle moulder nowadays and one a hundred years ago is still very much at its core the same machine but for some reason they knew how to make them work better a hundred years ago than most people can make them work now, that's down to information that has been lost through the generations of machinists, either by those not willing to teach or those not willing to learn.

_"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men’s writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have laboured hard for" - _Socrates


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## bjm (15 Sep 2020)

I think it's a reasoned strategy on behalf of the manufacturers - if the blade WAS sharp out-of-the-box, for most woodworkers it wouldn't be sharp enough - so why bother!!


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## Cabinetman (15 Sep 2020)

Back bevel? Microbevel? camber? Obviously I am ignorant. Yes my plane is tuned, it’s the original Stanley Bailey number 4 that I went to Teacher training college with when I was 19. I have changed the cap Iron for something a little stiffer, but I have never thought (and I do know what I’m looking at) that my work could be much improved, I very rarely use abrasive papers, the finish from a sharp plane shines, why scratch the surface?
I think what I’m trying to say is that you can overthink these things, what more do you need? A sharp plane and the whistle as it takes a few microns thick shaving across end grain says it all, no, and I’ve never used a shooting board either.
I feel sure a lot of this is to imbue a mystique to what we do, whether that’s to make them feel better/superior or just to sell us more shiny things I don’t know, my LN plane is still sat on my bench covered in dust, just couldn’t get on with it at all.
Some of our American cousins have got this bad, I get Pinterest feeds through occasionally and they seem to collect planes by the dozen, whether any of them ever actually get used I sometimes wonder.
I’m sorry I’m rambling, but I don’t find woodwork/cabinetmaking too difficult, it’s just a few simple rules, accurate marking out and sharp tools. Some equipment to take a lot of the hard work out helps I suppose.
Ian


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## Jackbequick (16 Sep 2020)

Bod said:


> Tis, a nice idea that chisels, and planes be sharp out of the box, be it dealer or manufacturers sharpening.
> What happens, as in this case, the new owner trys to do the impossible with the tool.
> The number of planes I've seen where it has clearly been used to try to plane down a painted door, with a nail hidden under the paint. Makes me wonder how many electric planes are sitting in land-fill for the want of new blades.
> 
> Bod.


The 'sharp at purchase idea _seems_ good...but its possibly caution that prevents it. I have to sharpen all tools after purchase however as an OHSE 'type' I think that not having blades sharpened to 'really good edge' at the store may actually prevent some injuries when people thumb test the blade edge. This would be a cause of action against the maker/importer. That may sound 'come off it'....but precaution whether as a principle or a personal decision has a value. The origin of the actions are in Donaghue Vs Stevenson, and though later altered owing to his quoting the 'Bible' for it... Lord Atkin on 'neighbourliness' is an important mindset.

I say that possibility of not sharpening to fine edge understanding also that probably many people have no ability at sharpening or knowing when 'sharp' has become SHARP without the thumb test. Nevertheless used tools blunt and sharpening is important. Interestingly some serious injuries comefromblunt tools...like a screwdriver which when 'blunt' is actually sharp. 

Those razor sharp knives flogged in TV advertisements... ...I wonder how many injuries from them...My son knocked the large one off a bench...it embedded in his foot and required 5 stitches...yep, he had sneakers 'on' and a steel cap would not have protected him on the bridge of his foot. Makes me shudder just thinking about it!


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## Eshmiel (16 Sep 2020)

Cabinetman said:


> Back bevel? Microbevel? camber? Obviously I am ignorant. Yes my plane is tuned, it’s the original Stanley Bailey number 4 that I went to Teacher training college with when I was 19. I have changed the cap Iron for something a little stiffer, but I have never thought (and I do know what I’m looking at) that my work could be much improved, I very rarely use abrasive papers, the finish from a sharp plane shines, why scratch the surface?



If you have no blade camber on your smoothing plane how do you avoid having to sand off the plane tracks left by the corners of a straight edge? 

Do you think that a sanded surface can be distinguished from an only-planed surface once the finish has gone on (assuming no plane tracks become visible and that the sanding was to the grit grade appropriate for the wood)?

Why boast about being ignorant of something and then comment on it?



Cabinetman said:


> I think what I’m trying to say is that you can overthink these things, what more do you need? A sharp plane and the whistle as it takes a few microns thick shaving across end grain says it all, no, and I’ve never used a shooting board either.
> I feel sure a lot of this is to imbue a mystique to what we do, whether that’s to make them feel better/superior or just to sell us more shiny things I don’t know, my LN plane is still sat on my bench covered in dust, just couldn’t get on with it at all.



Ha ha - what a hodge-podge of illogic! And that "overthinking" thing (a good excuse for not thinking at all). 

You can't get on with an LN .... unlike 99.9% of the other users so it must be the plane. Could this just be the ignorance you boast of? You are ignorant of blade cambers, back bevels et al so you assume that such stuff is all made up just to try to get money out of you somehow. The rest of us have been fooled and these cambery back bevelly things are useless despite thousands of others finding them rather useful. The tens of thousands that have used such configurations for some centuries now are all fools. 

And you can't use a shooting board and are proud of that too!

Oh dear.

(snip)


Cabinetman said:


> I’m sorry I’m rambling, but I don’t find woodwork/cabinetmaking too difficult, it’s just a few simple rules, accurate marking out and sharp tools. Some equipment to take a lot of the hard work out helps I suppose.
> Ian



Rambling? I begin to suspect you are just extracting the micturate and casting out some chum for we small fishes to bite at.  Naughty.

Eshmiel


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## Eshmiel (16 Sep 2020)

Jackbequick said:


> The 'sharp at purchase idea _seems_ good...but its possibly caution that prevents it. I have to sharpen all tools after purchase however as an OHSE 'type' I think that not having blades sharpened to 'really good edge' at the store may actually prevent some injuries when people thumb test the blade edge. This would be a cause of action against the maker/importer. That may sound 'come off it'....but precaution whether as a principle or a personal decision has a value. The origin of the actions are in Donaghue Vs Stevenson, and though later altered owing to his quoting the 'Bible' for it... Lord Atkin on 'neighbourliness' is an important mindset.
> 
> I say that possibility of not sharpening to fine edge understanding also that probably many people have no ability at sharpening or knowing when 'sharp' has become SHARP without the thumb test. Nevertheless used tools blunt and sharpening is important. Interestingly some serious injuries comefromblunt tools...like a screwdriver which when 'blunt' is actually sharp.
> 
> Those razor sharp knives flogged in TV advertisements... ...I wonder how many injuries from them...My son knocked the large one off a bench...it embedded in his foot and required 5 stitches...yep, he had sneakers 'on' and a steel cap would not have protected him on the bridge of his foot. Makes me shudder just thinking about it!



Hmmmm - yes, you may be right. In future I will be buying car and bicycle that does not go, as speed kills! Also, I will switch all the electric off to the electrical items at the mains. Electrocution is always a possibility - but not if there's no lecky in the wire. ....

Perhaps we should all lock up the shed forever - mine's full of sharp and pointy stuff. 11 screwdrivers at the last count!

I wonder where I can buy a soft and coddling cocoon? But hang on! Those cocoons can probably suffocate a lad if the breathing pipe gets blocked so .............

Perhaps the best strategy is to huddle in bed and never get out. I believe this is practiced to a great degree by the youth of a certain country when the pains of social intercourse become too many. 

Eshmiel


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## AJB Temple (16 Sep 2020)

I said a while ago that I have never used the ignore function and cannot see the use for it. The light is beginning to dawn.


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## Gary_S (16 Sep 2020)

I suspect that whatever degree of sharpness the planes and chisels come with, most of this community would devote time and effort to fettle. There are many ways that people sharpen and prepare blades and many different preferences for angles, secondary micro bevels etc that at the end of the day are used by each of us to get the tools into a condition where we use them with confidence.

There are many reachers of the craft who espouse different methods and teach them in books, in person training classes and on Youtube. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is difficult at first but as we progress in our use of tools, we subscribe to the philosophies of a few teachers and channels. Sometime for their skill at woodwork, sometimes for their skill at teaching and sometimes for their ability to entertain while they teach.

I myself am a dabbler who needs to spend more time in my workshop with my sons who are far better than I am. We teach each other, one is at furniture school, the other makes guitars. We all still watch Youtube, we watch some channels together and we all have our idiosyncrasies. That is part of the joy. Watching/reading/listening, learning and adapting into something that hopefully becomes our own personal style.


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## MikeG. (16 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> I said a while ago that I have never used the ignore function and cannot see the use for it. The light is beginning to dawn.



I turned it back off to see what you were talking about. We have a poster intent on becoming the most ignored on the forum, and only here for a fortnight so far. So, he disappears again.


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## Jackbequick (16 Sep 2020)

Bacms said:


> I think it does come down to youtube. Which, although it does open up learning for a lot of folks that would otherwise not have a way of doing it, provides no feedback when you are actually are on your own as a beginner you have no idea what is important and what isn't. And as been already mention if you want fast progress, which again youtube and the world seems to demand, then there is no substitute to having someone looking over you should and going, wait...



Hi..Utube also has some of the worst techniques and most outlandish claims for them in its money grubbing 'subscribe' features.. Better to learn from a professional.


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## Jackbequick (16 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> Be ware of youtube, though, because there are many more videos of people doing it wrong than there are of people doing it anywhere near right. You really are in the right place here, akirk, if you're seeking woodworking advice, and help in navigating youtube's pitfalls.



Absolutely agree Mike.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel - when you post pictures of something you've made that is anywhere near as good and professional as Cabinetmaker's desk, maybe your post will have some credence. Until then, it's billhooks.


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## MikeG. (16 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> ......maybe your post will have some credence. ......



Not sure I agree with this. He may be the best cabinet maker in history, but that wouldn't make his personal attacks any more acceptable. It also completely ignores the fact that there are many, many approaches to woodworking, all of which can produce wonderful results.

Eshmiel...... surely this can't be Jacob's latest nom-de-plume, can it_?_


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## Dave65 (16 Sep 2020)

Ttrees said:


> Just felt I should mention this in-case the owner of that bargain Bedrock decides to try it.
> Important on that particular plane for instance.



Tom, I will be looking to flatten the sole of the Bargain Bedrock at some point as it is very slightly hollow, if you would like to add some pointers on how best to do this on the bedrock post, so as not to go further off topic on this post, it would be appreciated.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2020)

Mike -  I did wonder.


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## Jackbequick (16 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> Hmmmm - yes, you may be right. In future I will be buying car and bicycle that does not go, as speed kills! Also, I will switch all the electric off to the electrical items at the mains. Electrocution is always a possibility - but not if there's no lecky in the wire. ....
> 
> Perhaps we should all lock up the shed forever - mine's full of sharp and pointy stuff. 11 screwdrivers at the last count!
> 
> ...


Oh dear......are you the person who protested someone else was ignorant a few comments back?... Perhaps you should think about being less 'in control' of intellectual stream and more about maturing in your own thinking. As a professional in OHSE my comment then and now is sensible as a'maybe'. 

I do understand that the challenge for some people is to give banal response when safety is mentioned. Yours is a particularly so in its intention to mock and mislead rational thinking and commonsense on various irrelevant fronts after a very reasonable suggestion why tools may not be fine edged at the point of purchase. Voila.


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## Cabinetman (16 Sep 2020)

Thanks for your support gentlemen. My work says it all. And that’s all I’m going to say on this matter. Ian


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## Phlebas (16 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> Eshmiel...... surely this can't be Jacob's latest nom-de-plume, can it_?_


Eshmiel is a variant of Ishmael, half grandfather (I think, it's been a long time since I did Scripture) of Jacob, by Hagar, Abraham's 'maid servant' (hem hem). 

But you knew that.

Oh hang on, maybe great uncle, perhaps once removed. Not very good with lineages.


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## Daniel2 (16 Sep 2020)

Phlebas said:


> Eshmiel is a variant of Ishmael, half grandfather (I think, it's been a long time since I did Scripture) of Jacob, by Hagar, Abraham's 'maid servant' (hem hem).
> 
> But you knew that.
> 
> Oh hang on, maybe great uncle, perhaps once removed. Not very good with lineages.



Impressed with the deduction


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## Daniel2 (16 Sep 2020)

BTW, my sharpening and plane use has notably improved even during
this thread. Amazing.
I'm a V. Happy Bunny


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## Trevanion (16 Sep 2020)

Daniel2 said:


> BTW, my sharpening and plane use has notably improved even during
> this thread.



At least someone’s getting something out of it!


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## Rich C (16 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> If you have no blade camber on your smoothing plane how do you avoid having to sand off the plane tracks left by the corners of a straight edge?
> 
> Do you think that a sanded surface can be distinguished from an only-planed surface once the finish has gone on (assuming no plane tracks become visible and that the sanding was to the grit grade appropriate for the wood)?


I take the corners off rather than camber my smoothing plane blade.
Also, surely one could use a cabinet scraper rather than having to sand?


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## Droogs (16 Sep 2020)

@Rich C depends on the final finish as a scraper can make it to difficult on occasion for the finish to penetrate the fibres


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## MikeG. (16 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> ......Eshmiel...... surely this can't be Jacob's latest nom-de-plume, can it_?_



Suddenly, this poster's location has gone from Wales to the Hebrides. Curiouser and curiouser.....


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2020)

Attempting to get away from people?

By the bye. I seem to remember some while ago reading that some fairly comprehensive trials had been carried out and that there was no discernable difference between a sanded finish and one straight from the plane.


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## MikeG. (16 Sep 2020)

Well, I don't know about that. Here's some bog oak, which has been sanded all over....then half scraped. You can plainly see a brighter shinier finish where the scraper has been(top half of the image):


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## Andy Kev. (16 Sep 2020)

Phil, would I be right in thinking that your last post has just the teensiest hint of a wind up about it?


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## MikeG. (16 Sep 2020)

For those following the ins and outs of the member-formerly-known-as Sebc, his new name, it seems, is silz.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> Phil, would I be right in thinking that your last post has just the teensiest hint of a wind up about it?


Not at all. Iirc Custard was involved somewhere in the thread that brought it up.
Mike - is you piece polished in any way or bare?


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## MikeG. (16 Sep 2020)

That's in mid-preparation, still raw.


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## AJB Temple (16 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> For those following the ins and outs of the member-formerly-known-as Sebc, his new name, it seems, is silz.


I just don't get this constantly changing names. My parents called me Adrian (the first bit of AJB Temple) when I was a baby, unfortunately (I would have chosen almost anything else) and I have had that one ever since. My name on this site is, wait for it...Adrian. Even my wife calls me that. When she is in a good mood. She has other names when she is not in a good mood. She is not English and she has mood swings in my opinion. 

Adrian


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## TheTiddles (16 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> I just don't get this constantly changing names. My parents called me Adrian (the first bit of AJB Temple) when I was a baby, unfortunately (I would have chosen almost anything else) and I have had that one ever since. My name on this site is, what for it...Adrian. Even my wife calls me that. When she is in a good mood. She has other names when she is not in a good mood. She is not English and she has mood swings in my opinion.
> 
> Adrian



I suppose Adrian, you’ve never acted in a way on the forum that you were so ashamed of that you couldn’t stand to be associated with your previous actions, just hypothesising....

Are you sure your parents didn’t just make a spelling mistake whilst aiming for a much better name?

Aidan


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## AJB Temple (16 Sep 2020)

I just knew you would say that !


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## Tony Zaffuto (16 Sep 2020)

I use my God given name. At least one forum in the states requires that. The upside is you would not post anything that you wouldn't say to a person's face. The downside is you would not post anything that you wouldn't say to a person's face.

I'm puzzled by this Sebastian goomer changing his name repeatedly, changing/removing posts etc. This thread is very interesting in seeing different methods, perspectives, etc. posted. I never took any classes, but there have been a few authors that I have read and learned from. First was David Charlesworth (I have purchased everything he has authored), next is Robert Wearing, then Charles Hayward and Jim Krenov.


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## Sgian Dubh (16 Sep 2020)

Maybe this is as good a time as any to throw in the following hoary old chestnut, primarily to take minds off the 'Spot the Jacob/ not Jacob' game that's developed, and just for the hell of it, ha, ha.
*********************************************************************************************
*A Lesson in Sharpening*

A perennial subject in woodworking magazines and forums is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so much tedious verbose nit-picking and circular bickering in woodworking forums, along with the publication of innumerable 'sure fire' and 'infallible' methods in blogs, YouTube videos, and magazines articles. For some reason most of these espoused methods for achieving a sharp edge on a tool seem to take an inordinate amount of time, and require a large array of bits and bobs to do the job-- I sometimes wonder if the process of sharpening is the main objective of the exercise for the people that describe them, rather than the means to working wood effectively.

Naturally, the subject is of interest because blunt tools aren't much use. Preamble to many of these articles often causes a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is sometimes said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles.

My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening:

Those that can’t.

Those that can.

In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have fancy grinders, oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc: yet just about every edge tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.

In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and use it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone of some sort and lubricant along with a few slips for gouges and the like, and perhaps a piece of oiled leather charged with a bit of fine powdered abrasive for final stropping.

Going back to the seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Get that piece o’ wood square." I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or so minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.

"Okay, I’ve done that," I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"

I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, which was followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor; the wood was probably only about ninety per cent or so of its original volume.

"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane ye’ve bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.

"Hold the iron up so’s ye can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed - he was a Scot. Again, I did as I was told.

"Now, can ye see it? Can ye see the ‘line-o’-light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.

"Aye," I said, after a little eye squinting, and other pretence of intelligence.

"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.

I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."

He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie wi’ me son. If ye can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron ye're holdin’ bare-a rsed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Get o’er here an’ I’ll show ye something."

You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally it was stropped backwards and forwards on the calloused palm of his hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the assembly was dropped back in the plane. This was followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh … a few minutes.

"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use blunt. Ye may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fer all the use it is to me," he explained with great refinement. "I’ve plenty mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. Ah’ve bin savin' 'em for ye. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get ye started."

For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time I was allowed to under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastud " I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen two or three tools more than once because he kept using and dulling them ... or maybe I just hadn't sharpened them too well the first time? When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the day’s work.

"Aye, nae too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time’ll tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bloody cabinetmaker if ye cannae even shairpen yer frickin’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."

I haven't.


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## Cabinetman (16 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> I just don't get this constantly changing names. My parents called me Adrian (the first bit of AJB Temple) when I was a baby, unfortunately (I would have chosen almost anything else) and I have had that one ever since. My name on this site is, wait for it...Adrian. Even my wife calls me that. When she is in a good mood. She has other names when she is not in a good mood. She is not English and she has mood swings in my opinion.
> 
> Adrian





AJB Temple said:


> She is not English and she has mood swings in my opinion.


 Don’t worry Adrian, it’s not you particularly. I long ago came to the conclusion that the female of the species has a couple of design flaws, you have spotted one, the other one is that it’s always too cold. Not sure how many female members we have but I think I’m in trouble!


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## TheTiddles (16 Sep 2020)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> I use my God given name. At least one forum in the states requires that. The upside is you would not post anything that you wouldn't say to a person's face. The downside is you would not post anything that you wouldn't say to a person's face.
> 
> I'm puzzled by this Sebastian goomer changing his name repeatedly, changing/removing posts etc. This thread is very interesting in seeing different methods, perspectives, etc. posted. I never took any classes, but there have been a few authors that I have read and learned from. First was David Charlesworth (I have purchased everything he has authored), next is Robert Wearing, then Charles Hayward and Jim Krenov.



God gave you a name? Really??!


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## Cabinetman (16 Sep 2020)

Thank you Richard, I could hear him saying it, just about sums it all up really. With some people it’s all the gear no idea.


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## Tony Zaffuto (16 Sep 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> God gave you a name? Really??!



Gave me a name and my chums have given a raft of other names, most not safe to post.


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## MikeG. (16 Sep 2020)

I don't know whether we're edging a bit close to the "no religion" rule here fellas. Best to leave gods out of a thread on plane blades, don't you think?


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> I don't know whether we're edging a bit close to the "no religion" rule here fellas. Best to leave gods out of a thread on plane blades, don't you think?



Oh, I dunno. After all, his lad was a chippie .....


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## Droogs (16 Sep 2020)

I was gonna mention Thor but remembered he only has a


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## TheTiddles (16 Sep 2020)

Droogs said:


> I was gonna mention Thor but remembered he only has a


Every problem looks like a nail to him I guess?


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## Tony Zaffuto (16 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> I don't know whether we're edging a bit close to the "no religion" rule here fellas. Best to leave gods out of a thread on plane blades, don't you think?



I capitalized God, and was posted with reverence, referring to my birth name instead of a screen name.


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## Inoffthered (17 Sep 2020)

Jackbequick said:


> The 'sharp at purchase idea _seems_ good...but its possibly caution that prevents it. I have to sharpen all tools after purchase however as an OHSE 'type' I think that not having blades sharpened to 'really good edge' at the store may actually prevent some injuries when people thumb test the blade edge. This would be a cause of action against the maker/importer. That may sound 'come off it'....but precaution whether as a principle or a personal decision has a value. The origin of the actions are in Donaghue Vs Stevenson, and though later altered owing to his quoting the 'Bible' for it... Lord Atkin on 'neighbourliness' is an important mindset.
> 
> I say that possibility of not sharpening to fine edge understanding also that probably many people have no ability at sharpening or knowing when 'sharp' has become SHARP without the thumb test. Nevertheless used tools blunt and sharpening is important. Interestingly some serious injuries comefromblunt tools...like a screwdriver which when 'blunt' is actually sharp.
> 
> Those razor sharp knives flogged in TV advertisements... ...I wonder how many injuries from them...My son knocked the large one off a bench...it embedded in his foot and required 5 stitches...yep, he had sneakers 'on' and a steel cap would not have protected him on the bridge of his foot. Makes me shudder just thinking about it!



It would be interesting to get the view of a lawyer but quoting Donaghue v Stevenson to support your argument is, imho, totally fallacious and a misguided application and extrapolation of the principles in that case. 
In Donaghue v Stevenson the purchaser of a bottle of ginger beer fell ill because the bottle contained a dead snail. Clearly, someone buying a bottle of pop is entitled to expect that is would not include foreign bodies that could cause illness. Using this judgement justify not sharpening tools is without foundation. Would you apply your logic to the suppliers of motor vehicles on the basis that cars can kill? Anyone buying a bladed tool would be hard pressed to sue the supplier for any injury if the item was correctly packed and identified as sharp.


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## profchris (17 Sep 2020)

Inoffthered said:


> It would be interesting to get the view of a lawyer but quoting Donaghue v Stevenson to support your argument is, imho, totally fallacious and a misguided application and extrapolation of the principles in that case.
> In Donaghue v Stevenson the purchaser of a bottle of ginger beer fell ill because the bottle contained a dead snail. Clearly, someone buying a bottle of pop is entitled to expect that is would not include foreign bodies that could cause illness. Using this judgement justify not sharpening tools is without foundation. Would you apply your logic to the suppliers of motor vehicles on the basis that cars can kill? Anyone buying a bladed tool would be hard pressed to sue the supplier for any injury if the item was correctly packed and identified as sharp.



The view of this lawyer is that the court would throw out such a claim. Judges are, amazingly, quite shrewd people. 

There's some very good academic research which shows that people aren't guided by the law, but rather by what they _think_ the law says (which is usually wrong, even habitual criminals don't get it!).

For product liability claims like this, the source of misunderstanding seems to be a tiny handful of US cases, where the claim is decided by a jury and the jury seems to think "Yes, I'd like $1 million if this happened to me". Obviously, the UK press only reports the jury decision and not that on appeal the case was later thrown out or damages reduced to $100.

Besides that, if the argument were sound then plane blades would have to be too blunt to cut at all. When I started out, knowing no better I bought an Amtech plane. It's never actually planed wood, but the supplied blade would still have cut me (just very slowly  ).


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## Droogs (17 Sep 2020)

Tool manufacturers in the 70's must have been petrified about cases like this judging by the pap they sold


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## Tony Zaffuto (17 Sep 2020)

I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but in the States, we live in a very litigious society. Half of TV commercials are attorneys "fishing" for clients for class action lawsuits, with their spiel beginning "...you deserve..." (other half of commercials are drug companies". 

As a manufacturer, nothing strikes fear in my heart as much as a letter from an attorney (or absolutely anything from the government). 

But, seeing these tools are meant for cutting, wouldn't the act of buying one acknowledge the buyer to understand the inherent danger of a potentially sharp edge?


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## AndyT (17 Sep 2020)

In the UK there's a problem with knives being used as weapons. Various laws have been introduced in vain attempts to legislate the problem away - when every kitchen in the land has at least one knife which could cause a serious wound or worse.

Here's one UK retailer trying to avoid injury or prosecution by selling their cutting tool with only an unfinished blunt edge on it. It's a device for cutting debris off a boat propellor. Their website description says:

_Please be aware that as a precaution and health and safety to third parties when delivering this item, the cutting blade is not to a “razor finish”, when you receive it, however if you require a better cutting edge this can be done with a small file._



https://www.miracleleisureproducts.co.uk/prop-mate-p717.html


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2020)

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: _I'm from the government and I'm here to help_." - President Reagan Aug. 12, 1986


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## MikeK (17 Sep 2020)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> But, seeing these tools are meant for cutting, wouldn't the act of buying one acknowledge the buyer to understand the inherent danger of a potentially sharp edge?



Probably no more than buying a cup of coffee at the drive-through would alert the driver that the contents might be hot.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2020)

Wasn't it an airline or a McD that got sued when a customer scalded herself with spilt coffee?


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## TheTiddles (17 Sep 2020)

Really going off-topic... whilst there are corner-cases that the Daily Mail like to make hay on, many litigations drive a culture of valuing human life and insisting that others do too. We have more work to do and comparisons with the USA in terms of injury rates and deaths do not make one side look very good at all, but whilst we have much in common, the amount that we don’t is much larger than many realise till they immerse themselves in both and compare

Aidan


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## MikeK (17 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Wasn't it an airline or a McD that got sued when a customer scalded herself with spilt coffee?


I was being subtle, but it was an elderly woman who scalded herself after buying a cup of coffee at a McDonald's drive-through. She was a passenger in the car and held the coffee between her knees while she took off the lid to add creamer and sugar. Unfortunately, she dumped the entire cup in her lap and suffered burns that required hospitalization. Her attorneys claimed the coffee was defective because it was too hot. McDonalds eventually settled the claim out of court, but subsequent claims for copycat litigants are usually dismissed.


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## pe2dave (17 Sep 2020)

"If you have no blade camber on your smoothing plane how do you avoid having to sand off the plane tracks left by the corners of a straight edge?"

Add another step to sharpening. Roll the blade at each corner to round it whilst sharpening. No plane tracks.


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## Tony Zaffuto (17 Sep 2020)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Wasn't it an airline or a McD that got sued when a customer scalded herself with spilt coffee?



Mickey D's! And the customer prevailed!


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## Tony Zaffuto (17 Sep 2020)

MikeK said:


> I was being subtle, but it was an elderly woman who scalded herself after buying a cup of coffee at a McDonald's drive-through. She was a passenger in the car and held the coffee between her knees while she took off the lid to add creamer and sugar. Unfortunately, she dumped the entire cup in her lap and suffered burns that required hospitalization. Her attorneys claimed the coffee was defective because it was too hot. McDonalds eventually settled the claim out of court, but subsequent claims for copycat litigants are usually dismissed.



...and McDonalds lowered the temperature of their coffee.


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## AJB Temple (17 Sep 2020)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> Mickey D's! And the customer prevailed!


Yes, typical frivolous US law suit after a woman at a drive through clamped a cup of coffee between her knees, then pulled the lid off towards her, tipping coffee into her lap. She was wearing absorbent trousers which made matters worse. Liebeck case. 

However, in England a similar case against McD's (Bogle) failed in 2002. The sensible English judge thought that it was perfectly OK for a company selling hot coffee to serve it hot and the customer should expect that. We are a tea drinking nation and used to applying a bit of common sense to hot drinks.


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## spb (17 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> Yes, typical frivolous US law suit after a woman at a drive through clamped a cup of coffee between her knees, then pulled the lid off towards her, tipping coffee into her lap. She was wearing absorbent trousers which made matters worse. Liebeck case.


There's a lot missing from how this case is usually reported - for a start, that her initial request was only the actual costs (medical bills and loss of income) she incurred as a result, and the headline award of millions was after McDonald's refused repeated opportunities to settle. The jury apparently felt that the company's attitude warranted the large punitive damages amount, though the judge then cut the payout by more than 80%. Second, that McDonald's had known for a long time (>10 years) that their coffee was served hot enough to injure (as evidenced by multiple previous claims which had been settled out of court), was too hot to drink as a result, and that consumers weren't generally aware of the severity of burns that it could cause, and that it made no effort to make them aware. Then, at the trial, they made statements to the effect that despite being well aware of multiple injuries being caused that could have been easily prevented, they deemed the numbers insignificant. The jury award was less "I'd like a few million dollars" and more that the company's complete disregard for its customers' well being shouldn't be allowed to continue.



> However, in England a similar case against McD's (Bogle) failed in 2002. The sensible English judge thought that it was perfectly OK for a company selling hot coffee to serve it hot and the customer should expect that. We are a tea drinking nation and used to applying a bit of common sense to hot drinks.


In England we also don't risk bankruptcy through medical bills from any slight injury. Many of these cases (including the infamous coffee one) start from the plaintiff not wanting to pay out tens or hundreds of thousands for something that happened because of another party's actions or inaction.

Of course, there are plenty of utterly frivolous lawsuits filed all the time in both countries, but they're not all as clear-cut as they look. Remember also that large American corporations hold a lot of influence over mass media and public discourse, and an obvious interest in reforming tort law so that they're never held liable for anything they do.


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## Nelsun (17 Sep 2020)

Not everyone is quite so successful at pulling a fast one - Woman who sawed off own hand found guilty of fraud.


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## Droogs (17 Sep 2020)

perhaps a simple IQ test prior to being able to purchase should be introduced


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## AJB Temple (17 Sep 2020)

spb said:


> There's a lot missing from how this case is usually reported -
> 
> Of course, there are plenty of utterly frivolous lawsuits filed all the time in both countries, but they're not all as clear-cut as they look. Remember also that large American corporations hold a lot of influence over mass media and public discourse, and an obvious interest in reforming tort law so that they're never held liable for anything they do.



Yes, I am aware of the detail of both cases. I originally trained as a lawyer but I have no respect at all for the ambulance chasing end of the profession. The fact is that consumers are frequently stupid. In some cases they are stupid and greedy. These people attract greedy lawyers and chancers. It is generally accepted that the correct temperature to brew coffee is 85 degrees C and for tea near boiling. We all know that hot drinks are hot and as a result we have to be careful. 

In the US case, my recollection is she was originally seeking $20k to cover current and future medical bills. Mc Donald's offered less and then got into a war. Even that claim was frivolous: the woman knowingly bought a hot coffee and she was careless and reckless in how she then handled it. Her case would certainly have failed in England and Europe. Rightly so.


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## Andy Kev. (18 Sep 2020)

AJB Temple said:


> The fact is that consumers are frequently stupid. In some cases they are stupid and greedy. These people attract greedy lawyers and chancers.


I think we tend to lose sight of the unfortunate fact that we are all capable of bouts of great stupidity. The coffee case might have had some merit had it been possible to show that e.g. a weak paper cup or a poorly fitting lid led to the accident but otherwise we can make a cultural assumption that everybody knows how to deal with a hot drink and if they don't, then frankly they shouldn't be buying them.

One of my favourite examples of daftness concerns a friend who wanted to see my workshop. I showed her the set up and various tools. Before I handed her a chisel I said very firmly, "Careful! Sharp!". So what did she do? She decided to test this by pushing one corner of the chisel against the tip of her thumb hard enough to draw a tiny drop of blood and then had the cheek to look at me angrily. In all fairness, she found it difficult to maintain her anger in the face of a host who was desperately and with only partial success, trying to suppress his giggles. And that is an intelligent woman who has a responsible job in the international service department of an engineering firm. She can reverse park a car, though.*

As an aside, I've got nothing against punitive and exemplary damages but in cases where people cannot possibly be recouping personal financial losses and costs e.g. where they're sueing due to the death of a relative, I think the amount they personally receive should have a cap e.g. 10 k and the judge should be required to ask them which charity they would like the other 2, 990, 000 to go to. That way you'd remove the incentive for excessive personal gain while maintaining punitive measures for the negligent/guilty.

*As judge and jury, I set her compensation at a cup of coffee (which stayed unspilt).


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## Paddy Roxburgh (18 Sep 2020)

Phlebas said:


> Eshmiel is a variant of Ishmael, half grandfather (I think, it's been a long time since I did Scripture) of Jacob, by Hagar, Abraham's 'maid servant' (hem hem).
> 
> But you knew that.
> 
> Oh hang on, maybe great uncle, perhaps once removed. Not very good with lineages.


Hmm, there may be some stylistic similarities but I can't imagine Jacob suggesting tools should be sharp from the box, secondary/tertiary bevels or staning DC. I mean, look at this quote
"None of them are as simple as waving the blade at an oilstone "like I was taught 40 years ago by some old curmudgeon". (My own least favourite variety of sharpening advice)."
That has to be the least Jacob quote of all time.


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## Eshmiel (18 Sep 2020)

Paddy Roxburgh said:


> Hmm, there may be some stylistic similarities but I can't imagine Jacob suggesting tools should be sharp from the box, secondary/tertiary bevels or staning DC. I mean, look at this quote
> "None of them are as simple as waving the blade at an oilstone "like I was taught 40 years ago by some old curmudgeon". (My own least favourite variety of sharpening advice)."
> That has to be the least Jacob quote of all time.



Perhaps that Jacob is another re-incarnation of Jonesy (the black dagger). I notice he has splurged out his silly old tale of curmudgeon-taught sharpening somewhere upthread, as he has done on forums since 1923. _There are only those who can sharpen and those who can't,_ says he. Presumably this means that one must be born with the ability and no amount of learning to do it will enable one to do so, especially if one wants a camber, backbevel or blade that actually cuts the wood without going even blunter every 5 swipes.

Myself I have left here now, despite being unable to resist a peep at this particular thread to see what other machoman talk has been emitted by the various old curmudgeons in training and their sycophants. They will never be as good as the proper old 'uns at being nasty old pippers, though.

So .... I leave you to your talk of. "_It's all rubbish except what I, the maker of yet another MDF kitchen and/or wasted-oak Klumpen Stuff say_". No need for even MikeG to do his Duchess of Pout flounce! (Again).

Tara, then; and thanks for all the pish.  

Eshmiel


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## Droogs (18 Sep 2020)

Paddy it may be a false sense of security an' all that. Who knows what goes through a mind as cunning and machiavellian super mind like Jacobs. He might have you in his sights for a much bigger hit later


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## Nigel Burden (18 Sep 2020)

Eshmiel said:


> Perhaps that Jacob is another re-incarnation of Jonesy (the black dagger). I notice he has splurged out his silly old tale of curmudgeon-taught sharpening somewhere upthread, as he has done on forums since 1923. _There are only those who can sharpen and those who can't,_ says he. Presumably this means that one must be born with the ability and no amount of learning to do it will enable one to do so, especially if one wants a camber, backbevel or blade that actually cuts the wood without going even blunter every 5 swipes.
> 
> Myself I have left here now, despite being unable to resist a peep at this particular thread to see what other machoman talk has been emitted by the various old curmudgeons in training and their sycophants. They will never be as good as the proper old 'uns at being nasty old pippers, though.
> 
> ...


What utter tosh.


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## TheTiddles (18 Sep 2020)

Has Eshmiel gone, let’s all take a moment to reflect on our loss....

...that should do it, bye!


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## MikeG. (18 Sep 2020)

He's gone? Again.......


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## AJB Temple (18 Sep 2020)

I wondered if Eshmiel was an anagram. Unfortunately the only thing I could think of was that thing you use to move salad about when you have applied a dressing. Then I realised that there is no T in osser.


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## Sgian Dubh (19 Sep 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> Has Eshmiel gone, let’s all take a moment to reflect on our loss....


If true I, for one, will miss him, or is it a her: are we still allowed to be so simplistically gender binary in these contemporary times of potential or perceived multiple and fluid gender identities? (No, I don't need an answer).

A blunt, offensive, contrarian, frequently rude, but obviously with woodworking knowledge and experience, a colourful and sometimes semi-courtly and flowery patrician way of expressing him(?)self.

So, what's not to like? It adds a bit of spice to a forum, upsets niceties effectively, and so easily ignorable if you're immune to such things, or you can just be amused by the posts as I am or, if you prefer, you can let yourself get all hot, bothered, and into an outraged froth. Slainte.


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## Andy Kev. (19 Sep 2020)

Sgian Dubh said:


> If true I, for one, will miss him, or is it a her: are we still allowed to be so simplistically gender binary in these contemporary times of potential or perceived multiple and fluid gender identities? (No, I don't need an answer).
> 
> A blunt, offensive, contrarian, frequently rude, but obviously with woodworking knowledge and experience, a colourful and sometimes semi-courtly and flowery patrician way of expressing him(?)self.
> 
> So, what's not to like? It all adds a bit of spice to a forum, upsets niceties effectively, and it's all so easily ignorable if you're immune to such things, or you can just be amused by the posts as I am or, if you prefer, you can let yourself get all hot, bothered, and into an outraged froth. Slainte.


I can relate to that post, although I tend to be less tolerant of rudeness. If I remember aright you read Private Eye which seems to me to sit with such a view. Be careful though: you might graduate to The Spectator and therein lies intellectual purgatory on account of the crossword being loads harder than the one in the Eye.


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## Sgian Dubh (19 Sep 2020)

Andy Kev. said:


> If I remember aright you read Private Eye which seems to me to sit with such a view. Be careful though: you might graduate to The Spectator and therein lies intellectual purgatory on account of the crossword being loads harder than the one in the Eye.


Oh yes, I'm a Private Eye reader. I do so to keep my world weariness and cynicism in good shape so there's little or no chance of me becoming too, er, 'nice' and sympathetic. I can't see me moving on to the Specy, and I've never really been into crossword puzzles - I prefer to waste my time in other pursuits, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Trevanion (19 Sep 2020)

Funnily enough, I was using a little bit of Norwegian Spruce today for some random bit of tat around the workshop and upon remembering this thread I decided to plane it with what I _thought_ was a fairly sharp plane, going with the grain as best as I could make out:





​Of course, the iron wasn't so sharp you could split atoms with it, and the cap iron probably wasn't set to the standard some would like, and the frog probably wasn't set correctly, and for all I know the plane probably has a 25mm bow in the sole, and probably some other problem I'll get chastised about, but I can categorically say without a doubt, this wood is absolutely terrible stuff to work. So, If Seb is still reading this, use better wood!


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## AJB Temple (19 Sep 2020)

'tis a simple truth that the best thing to make a silk purse out of is ......silk.


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## MikeG. (19 Sep 2020)

I bet you didn't break chips out of your iron, though, on that knot.


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## Trevanion (19 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> I bet you didn't break chips out of your iron, though, on that knot.



Actually, the knot is probably the cleanest planed bit of the timber . To be fair, the Record Tungsten Steel irons are pretty tough! But maybe I wasn't trying hard enough and my edge not quite delicate enough to break off.


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## Tony Zaffuto (19 Sep 2020)

Works similar to the spruce available here in the states! Sanding is not a solution, as it gums paper readily. Sold as "construction lumber".

What other screen names does "Seb" use?


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## MikeG. (20 Sep 2020)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> ........What other screen names does "Seb" use?



We weren't talking about Seb, but about Eshmiel, who has been banned as Jacob, and another one or two identities as well.


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## Sgian Dubh (20 Sep 2020)

MikeG. said:


> We weren't talking about Seb, but about Eshmiel, who has been banned as Jacob, and another one or two identities as well.


Oh! That is disappointing. I was looking forward to seeing how Eshmiel would make me laugh, or at least smile, by putting me back in my box with an example of his stiletto like word diarrhoea (sic) - yes, it's an oxymoron. Slainte.


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## Just4Fun (22 Sep 2020)

Not a plane but a knife ...

Today I bought a paring knife from the kitchen section of my local cheapie store. I intend to use it as a marking knife in the workshop. I was surprised to find it is quite sharp as supplied. It easily cuts paper and is more than sharp enough for my purposes. If a cheap kitchen knife can be sold this sharp, why not a plane?


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