# 16th. Century Venetian gilded tabernacle frame with hand cut and carved mouldings.



## Adam W. (11 May 2021)

So as not to clutter an already busy BA thread, I'll put this one on its own, as it includes a lot of planed mouldings.

For my final BA project I'll be building one of these.







It's an early 16th century Venetian picture frame which is at the V&A museum.

Looks fancy doesn't it ? But you'll be surprised how it's made, I was.

The ornamentation is applied stucco and I've already made two of the four sections. One for the top (entablature) and one for the bottom (predella).

The ones on the side and around the sight edge moulding will be made next week. It all has to be finished by the end of the month, so that I can gild it in time.













The firs step is to make the backing frame so the joinery can be fixed onto it and as it's all applied mouldings, it needs to be fairly robust. I expect the whole thing to weigh 25kg when it's finished.

The cornice is made in two parts to save on timber. The first piece is a series of rebates to create fillets and the dentiles which I'll cut out tomorrow.

After the first rebate is cut, I need to make a couple of fillets. This is done using side gauges made from strips of boxwood held against the plane and the edge of the first rebate. Remember to keep working downwards, as it's tricky to go the other way. Rebate, fillet, rebate, fillet...easy!

If you're going to cut mouldings, a selection of these is a must have trick in the tool kit. Mine are from boxwood, but they can be made of anything woody.







The second part is an ogee with two fillets It has about a 30º rake and I just eyeballed it to make a nice shape.

Start with rebates and chamfers to steer the planes with and cut the fillets to size too.






It looks like a complete dogs dinner and it gets worse, but persevere and you'll be rewarded with one of these...








If you're having trouble blending the curves together, you can turn it on its edge and it'll be slightly easier. I had a piece with many small knots and loads of reversing grain, so I had to plane in both directions to get it smooth.

Put them together and it becomes one of these....






I'll tidy up the fillets and glue it up and cut the miters. The reason one is longer 12' than the other 7' is because of the miters create too much waste and I need to cut the knots out. Plus I only had one piece of timber this size and needed two pieces.

I think it planed up quite well seeings it is cheap roofing batten.

No sanding required.

More tomorrow.......


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## Inspector (11 May 2021)

Stucco. The CNC carving of it's day. 

Pete


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## dzj (11 May 2021)

Nice. Is the stucco lime based or gypsum?


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## Adam W. (11 May 2021)

This is gypsum, which was used extensively by the Venetians both burnt as plaster (gesso grosso) and slaked for gesso sottile as a base layer for water gilding. I'll be using both forms of gypsum on this project


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## Ollie78 (11 May 2021)

You are going to have to get a very, very nice picture to go in that !

Ollie


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## Blaidd-Drwg (12 May 2021)

I love seeing how these pieces were made. Always exciting.


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## Phill05 (12 May 2021)

Excellent looking forward to see how you arrive at the finished frame, what kind of time did it take to carve the (entablature) and (predella). and do you have working drawings for them not just work from the image.


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## Adam W. (12 May 2021)

Initially I thought it was all carved, until I went to see it in the archive of the V&A and there's a surprise at the end when I let on what I've found out about it after researching Venetian renaissance stucco and the guild system in the Republic of Venice during the 16th. century.

The two frieze elements are applied stucco and it took a week to make each one. I made working drawings of the sections of the frame which I used to make the first example. Unfortunately I can't use that as it's in London and the gold and the rest of the stuff is here in Denmark, so I'm having to squeeze in doing the joinery for a second time.

More work, but more practice. Which isn't a bad thing.

I'll write a bit more about the stucco later when I apply it to the frame.


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## Inspector (12 May 2021)

I assume they are repeats of a section and cast multiple times, and applied after cleaning up with more touch up after. What did they use for molds then and did you use the same or a modern material like silicone molds?

Pete


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## Adam W. (12 May 2021)

I found a description of how to make a flexible mould by Sir Hugh Plat, a 16th. century English collector of recipes.

Here it is if you want to have a go.

_“Take one pound of common glew, put thereto one ounce of yellow wax, but first dissolve the glue by a gentle fire, with a little water into a thick body, and after this solution put in your wax and a little charcoal or soot from a candle flame.”_ 

I used silicone, as I had a huge bucket of it and I needed to make sure I got it right first time.

I've been setting out and cutting the dentiles on the entablature cornice.

I knocked up the backing frame and glued it together yesterday and can now start laying out the parts which I did have and measuring and cutting the other bits.

I have the pilasters and the sight edge moulding, so that has saved some work. I can use these to gauge the rest of the frame by working backwards, as my drawing wasn't as comprehensive as it should have been and consisted only of sections with no elevations.






The original has 33 dentiles on the face of the entablature and the same spacing gives 10 on each side above the capitals.

So I stepped this off with dividers to give the center of the gap between the dentiles and eyeballed the width of the gap, making sure it wasn't too large. Cut this out and it starts to look about right.







Inevitably a couple broke off, but I managed to find them on the floor and glued them back on, hence the tape on the right hand side. The whole thing gets covered with hide glue and I'll clean up the hairy bits on the dentiles when it dries, as it'll be easier.

I'm now cutting the miters and gluing the cornice together so that I can cut the other dentiles and the water leaf pattern on the ogee.

It's all slightly wonky, but that's how these handmade frames are and it goes with my house, which has wonky qualities too.

Peter Schade, head of framing at The National Gallery calls it _"the sculptural qualities of the workshop". _I'm going to use that when someone complains of wonky work next time.


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

So, chugging along......

The frame is built up by attaching extra pieces, which are just glued on and the backing frame acts as a support for the whole shebang. It also creates the 1/4" rebate for the painting in conjunction with the sight edge moulding.







Here's a photo of the back side of the original frame and you can see how things are built up in layers.






I was looking in the wood shanty for a decent piece of 1" for the predella and came across this 12' beauty 








That's a good 12" wide and is a piece of scots pine which I milled about 12 years ago. It's come right from the centre of the stem and the pieces between the knots make for the best quater sawn timber, so I've used that and plan to re-make the entablature again, using this timber.

I'll tell you why later, after dinner.


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## Adam W. (15 May 2021)

So, looking at the backside of the original, it's clear that the frame is built of layers.

The picture below shows the profile of the pilasters and how they cover the backing frame and trap the sight edge moulding to create the rebate for the picture.







This particular cut of timber is typical for moulding work on picture frames and is like rift sawn timber, but its cut off a tangentially or flat sawn sawn board. The pilaster creates a rebate and straddles the edge of the backing frame and both bits are screwed together at the end.









Note how rough the backing frame and the hidden joinery surfaces, this is quite typical and once the frame is on the wall, no one will ever see it.








Now it's standing up, I can get a better view of how the entablature works and I'm not so happy with the cornice moulding and I also cut the dentiles in the wrong fillet.

The dentiles are not such a big issue for me, as I can paint and egg tempra arabesque design on the lower fillet or just leave it as a band of gold. The big issue is the direction of the grain on the imposts, the bit at the edge of the entablature.

I was thinking about shrinkage and if this might make the entablature split when I bring it in the house. I'll chew on that a bit more when the applied stucco frieze is offered up to it.

So it's a case of running up more moulding over the weekend and I should be ready to carve the capitals next week.


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## Blaidd-Drwg (15 May 2021)

Adam, regarding the dentiles. I've made these before but may have done it differently. I made a jig to cut each dentile piece so I had a pile of teeth. I then used a spacer to place them along the rebate. This was pretty fiddly and I doubt that it's a best practice, but it worked "kind of" in my situation.


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## Adam W. (15 May 2021)

I cut these out with a chisel, as I'd never get them all to line up and it'd end up looking like a dogs dinner if I did it the other way.

I think they are fixed individually on larger cornices for timber facades like shop fronts.


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## Tris (15 May 2021)

Thoroughly enjoying your write ups Adam. Thank you for taking the time to share them.


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## NickM (15 May 2021)

Yes, this is great stuff. Blows my mind!


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## TRITON (15 May 2021)

Aye great , a fantastic project.

Is it real gold for the gilding.


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## Adam W. (15 May 2021)

I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'm enjoying the responses very much, so thanks for joining in.

@TRITON Yes it's 24 karat Italian gold from Manetti in Firenze. That's why I'm fretting over the entablature as the frame has two layers of gilding on it.


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## Adam W. (15 May 2021)

The next piece of moulding to make is the architrave on the entablature. Its moulding B at the top right of this working drawing. It's a series of rebates with an ogee and a quirk and an astragal underneath. The astragal gets carved into a band of pearls once it's fixed in place.







The rebates and ogee are cut and the quirk is stuck with a snipes bill plane, pretty much the same way as the cornice, just a lot smaller and I eyeballed it and ran my finger along the arris to gauge the depth. It's easier to do that than try and measure it.

The astragal on the edge was first cut with a T&G plane with a side gauge to get it to sit in the right place.









I bought a load of boxwood from a model maker a while back and these strips of box were part of the deal. They make excellent side gauges and I was really lucky to get them all ripped to different thicknesses.







I just had to rip it to width on the saw and taped it down so that I didn't have to hold it. Face shield on and stand away in case it went flying.







The shoulders for the astragal were taken down with a rebate plane and it was rounded over with a number 2 hollow plane.







It came out OK and I'm pleased with the piece of architrave, especially the quirk ogee, that came out really nice.









I love making these frames, as there's a lot of architectural detail crammed into a very small space.

There's two more mouldings to run up, then I can start carving.


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

I think the cornice is growing on me, what's the opinion of the members of the peanut gallery ?


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## Jester129 (16 May 2021)

Yep, loving it, and the write up is great. 
You mentioned 'pearls', do you carve these individually, how is it done?


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

They are just cut into the astragal with a small half round gouge. As the astragal moulding already has half of the pearl shape, it's just a matter of chopping out the gaps and rounding them over. The gesso makes it all smooth for gilding.

I'll do a walk through of that for you when I start carving it next week.


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## Blaidd-Drwg (16 May 2021)

Really enjoying this.


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## Stevekane (16 May 2021)

Sorry but couldnt resist showing my version of your magnificant creation, mine was made out of building timber and was built to hide a great big door sized hole in the wall where somone had removed a chimney breast, it made use of the hole as it was inset and covered up the broken brickwork,,the unpainted pictures show it without the mid section of the crown moulding,,,it was then, I think rather spoilt by being painted,,,had I seen your post I might have suggested gold leaf!!
Steve.


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## Inspector (16 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I think the cornice is growing on me, what's the opinion of the members of the peanut gallery ?



Not having any expertise or much in the way of examples around me to absorb, young country, it looks good to me and way beyond what I would try. If you are happy it's a go.

Pete


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

Yebbut Pete, your country is young and old at the same time. It's just that they didn't do much in the way of Venetian mouldings in the 16th. century.


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## TRITON (16 May 2021)

I dont think I've ever seen that method of ripping before. It has to be a first


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## Adam W. (17 May 2021)

So, moving on......

I'm just cutting the mouldings for the predella and I've made extensive use of the side gauges when cutting the various small rebates for the cornice, some of which are 1/16" wide. That's pretty small for an old wooden rebate plane, but it works well even though there are 6 different fillets in this 1" wide piece of timber.








I've eyeballed the moulding more than I measured it, although the thickness of the side gauges determines the precise width of the fillet, and planed it to a shape which produces the most pleasing shadow lines. 

Which is what I think mouldings are all about really.







I prefer to think that I'm carving the ogee sections of the moulding and if it doesn't seem to be working I will reduce the width of that part by planing along the fillet below it with the rebate plane tipped on its side, just a couple of light strokes is all that's needed to make a visible change to the shape.


I'll stick the last moulding today and then I can carve the capitals tomorrow.


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## bob543 (17 May 2021)

Wonderful work , thanks for showing . I made this meagre Cassetta frame out of some left over decking timber aged to look old . Used the sgraffito technique though black bole onto gold leaf that was itself laid on red bole. Only took me a few days on and off.


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## Adam W. (17 May 2021)

That's very elegant, I really like cassettas.


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## Adam W. (17 May 2021)

The last moulding to be stuck is moulding E which forms the surbase of the predella and I fancied trying something new for that.

The first time I made it, it came out a bit too steep for my liking and the carving of the leaf on the ogee wouldn't have worked so well. It's on the frame which is in London at the moment, so I can't show you.






For my little experiment, I used the two off cut ends of the moulding for the cornice of the entablature and butted them together on the sticking board.

I put a bit of tape across the joint and the nails in the fence of the board held it into place. I also clamped a stop on the outboard end so that I could to plane in both directions without it flying off the end.






My intention was to change this moulding completely from its original form A into form E.

Using a side gauge, I sunk a fillet about 5/8" into the ogee from the top edge. This formed the ovolo for the bead and reel carved section of the surbase.







By tipping the rebate plane on its side I reduced the ovolo in width and made the fillet wider. With 1/8" side gauge between the shoulder of the rebate and the plane I divided the fillet in to two parts and sunk the second half 1/8" below the first.

This formed an edge which I could ride a small hollow plane on to round over for the top of the ogee.











Having planed out the ogee shape and blended the curves together, I formed the ovolo properly for the bead and reel, cleaned up all the fillets and stuck a small quirk between the top of the ogee and the fillet.

It seemed to have worked quite well, so I glued it on to the frame.











The one on the right is the original ogee and I manage to save myself a load of work by doing it this way and also use up all of the timber I had prepared for the mouldings.

These mouldings don't have to have a perfect finish, as they'll be carved and covered with gesso, and any small ridges or imperfections will be covered up.


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## bobblezard (18 May 2021)

Hi Adam, superb work I've been following this with great interest.
Sorry to hijack your thread but your description of carving pearls reminded me of a job I've been avoiding. 
This long clock case is a simple oak construction but has pearls planted on the front. The clock was badly damaged during a house move and the mouldings lost. I've got new glass and fixed the square bits but this stumped me. Do you think I could try the same technique and then cut the pearls (very carefully) off the astragal.... I thought they might be turned but would struggle holding them (in tension!?). I presumed the pearls were oak also
How would you go about this? Thanks for any insight you can offer


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## Adam W. (18 May 2021)

I'll cut my pearls tomorrow or later today and I'll post a description of it.

I would struggle to stick them on in a straight line and wouldn't recommend it. I reckon yours are still on a small fillet which is glued into the rebate in longish sections, as they're very straight.

So I'd clean out the rebate , make a new fillet, stick it in and carve them that way.

They are oak and the grain goes in a different way to the rest of the panel, so they are applied in one section after being cut.


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## Adam W. (18 May 2021)

Now it's standing up...

I tacked the architrave moulding on with my replica 16th century Paslode tack shooter so that I can carve the pearls.

As the pieces are larger and easier to hold on to on the bench, I can also begin to set out all the leaf carving and other dentiles. I think it's easier to do it this way, as I can ensure the details meet up properly at the miters.


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## Adam W. (18 May 2021)

The entablature has its details.....


The original isn't carved on the returns, but I think I'll add them to this one.

It's going to look busy in a day or two.


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## Blaidd-Drwg (19 May 2021)

Gorgeous work.


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## Adam W. (19 May 2021)

Thank you.

I can see areas where it needs a bit of adjustment and I may add some more detail. I'm currently eyeing this frame up for a bit of inspiration.






The Venetians didn't seem to be shy about adding a bit of ornamentation and I really like the flowers on the sight edge moulding, but that's for another day.

Perhaps I'll add that to the one on London.....I found a photo of it at last and there's plenty of room on it for a bit of embellishment.


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## John Brown (19 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I can see areas where it needs a bit of adjustment and I may add some more detail. I'm currently eyeing this frame up for a bit of inspiration.
> 
> ...


Fascinating stuff.
I suppose the frames were made by other artisans, not by the artist ?


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## Blaidd-Drwg (19 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I can see areas where it needs a bit of adjustment and I may add some more detail. I'm currently eyeing this frame up for a bit of inspiration.
> 
> ...


Reminds me a bit of when Peter Follansbee talks about “horror vacui” - that fear of un-decorated spaces typical of the true 17th-century style.


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## Adam W. (19 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> Fascinating stuff.
> I suppose the frames were made by other artisans, not by the artist ?


That's right, although it was quite common for the artist to design the frame. There are examples of Bellini and Lippi design sketches for frames, plus a whole host of other great artists of course..

Following on a theme of _horror vacui_ and for those who suffer from kenophobia, some more detail was added today. I'll start looking at the capitals tomorrow and do a walk through of how to carve the moulding details at the weekend, for those who are interested.

I didn't adjust any of the entablature, as it's the camera distorting things up in the corners.


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## bobblezard (20 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I'll cut my pearls tomorrow or later today and I'll post a description of it.
> 
> I would struggle to stick them on in a straight line and wouldn't recommend it. I reckon yours are still on a small fillet which is glued into the rebate in longish sections, as they're very straight.
> 
> ...


Hi Adam, thanks very much for your response and sorry for the delay replying. I've been working and wanted to check but there is definitely no rebate or fillet. The line of pearls are each connected to the next and just glued down onto the front panel of the clock. 
I will have to work something out but am a bit stumped.


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## Adam W. (20 May 2021)

@bobblezard , Oh, it looked like there was a slight lip on the panel. I still think they are carved in sections and applied, as the grain in the top piece is 90º to the grain direction on the panel, also it's the standard way of applying decorative beading like that.

Maybe you could take a couple more photos ?


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## bobblezard (20 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> @bobblezard , Oh, it looked like there was a slight lip on the panel. I still think they are carved in sections and applied, as the grain in the top piece is 90º to the grain direction on the panel, also it's the standard way of applying decorative beading like that.
> 
> Maybe you could take a couple more photos ?


Hi Adam, yes I think they are carved and applied as you say but I wouldn't have a scooby how to do that. Would you use an in-cannel gouge? The pearls are a tad over 5mm so start with a 5mm wide piece of oak, carve the pearls along the edge and then cut them in a strip away from the rest of the blank? 
There's also a pic of the other small section of damage, I'll probably start with that and try to get it looking something like...


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## Inspector (20 May 2021)

Those look machine made to me and can still be bought. Not sure if they can be had in oak. If you had a lathe you could turn short lengths and then either saw or sand to make a flat back.








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Oak ones are available.




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## Adam W. (20 May 2021)

Well there you go, I bet you could get them here off the shelf too.

@ bobblezard But they will be easy to carve with a small regular gouge too. I'll post something at the weekend about it.

Cheers

So I'm starting on the capitals for the frame and I've found a nice bit of spruce in the off cut pile. It's just the right size to carve both of them side by side, which should speed things up a bit.






So I just lay it all out with a cetre line and find the size of gouges I need by drawing the outlines of the elements with them. I try to use the same gouges that I used on the other parts of the frame, as the original carvers would possibly had a more limited selection of tools than I do.

That's my theory anyway and it seems to hold true. 






Once I'd carved the post for the central flower on the capital cornice, I used a plant pot with the correct diameter for the segment as a template for both of the capitals.

As I'm carving two together, I can repeat the cuts with the gouge I have in my hand and this speeds things up no end.

I cut the segment with a regular chisel held bevel down to cut and carve the internal radius. Then I removed all the waste, as I had my high points and as everything else is below that, I can chop away quite happily.







I cut the cove and the bottom fillet of the cornice and cut a trench down to the second from lowest level on the carving. The lowest point is in another trench and I'll cut that out last.

I'm getting a nice shiny surface from the gouge and chisels and the cutting was easy despite it being mostly end grain, so I know the edge is good. If I have to push, I know it's time to strop the edge and touch it up.

I've also laid out the volutes and cut the angled faces for them at the same time as the cornice. Hopefully I'll have the face of the capitals done tomorrow and I'll start fitting them to the pilasters.


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## bobblezard (20 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Well there you go, I bet you could get them here off the shelf too.
> 
> @ bobblezard But they will be easy to carve with a small regular gouge too. I'll post something at the weekend about it.
> 
> Cheers


Thanks Adam that would be great.
I had a quick look and couldn't see any in the UK but hard to work out what to search for, pearls and beading etc just brings up loads of jewellery findings. 
Sorry again to hijack your thread.
Really looking forward to more on the tabernacle frame


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## Jacob (20 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> That's right, although it was quite common for the artist to design the frame. There are examples of Bellini and Lippi design sketches for frames, plus a whole host of other great artists of course.........


Was the case in general?
Reason I ask - was on a trip around Birmingham Art Gallery years ago and found myself looking at the frames too and thinking how elaborate and interesting many if them were, carvings, mouldings, paint effects and so on. Not just routine framers shop frames but highly crafted.
I guess a "frame" can be anything from Passe Partout tape to a whole side chapel.


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## Jacob (20 May 2021)

bobblezard said:


> Thanks Adam that would be great.
> I had a quick look and couldn't see any in the UK but hard to work out what to search for, pearls and beading etc just brings up loads of jewellery findings.
> Sorry again to hijack your thread.
> Really looking forward to more on the tabernacle frame


If not machine made I think you'd carve or rasp them on the edge of a board and then slice it off. There's often routine stuff like that in the older books Wood Carving by Percy Blandford - AbeBooks but not later as it's out of fashion, which of course is a pity!


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## Adam W. (20 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Was the case in general?
> Reason I ask - was on a trip around Birmingham Art Gallery years ago and found myself looking at the frames too and thinking how elaborate and interesting many if them were, carvings, mouldings, paint effects and so on. Not just routine framers shop frames but highly crafted.
> I guess a "frame" can be anything from Passe Partout tape to a whole side chapel.



Unfortunately the details of who made the frames are lost to history and most paintings have been re-framed many times to follow interior design fashion. 

The Bellini frame that I showed earlier is very special, as it is thought to be the original frame for the painting, which is a rare thing.

They are fascinating things when you start looking at them, aren't they?


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## Ozi (20 May 2021)

Yer well I cut two bits of wood today and they were the same length! 

I am in awe of some of the things I see on this site


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## Inspector (21 May 2021)

bobblezard said:


> Thanks Adam that would be great.
> I had a quick look and couldn't see any in the UK but hard to work out what to search for, pearls and beading etc just brings up loads of jewellery findings.
> Sorry again to hijack your thread.
> Really looking forward to more on the tabernacle frame



I just did a search for pearl bead wood molding UK and got one place. Not Oak but Beech. If I can do it so can you.  








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Pete


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## bobblezard (21 May 2021)

Inspector said:


> I just did a search for pearl bead wood molding UK and got one place. Not Oak but Beech. If I can do it so can you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Pete I guess moulding was the search term that made the difference, unfortunately these are too big, mine are a shade over 5mm but I'll keep looking


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## Jester129 (21 May 2021)

@bobblezard here's a link to a ball cutter set from banggood if it helps: Drillpro 24pcs 6-25mm alloy ball cutter woodworking drilling wooden beads drill rotary bead molding tool Sale - Banggood.com . Cheers.


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## Adam W. (21 May 2021)

The first capital didn't work out, as I had cut the volutes too deep, so it met the woodburner.

As I don't have the original or any detail measurements, the whole thing is a bit of trial and error. To be honest, I like it that way and I get a lot out of trying to find the quickest way of doing this stuff. Not that It saves me any time, but I think I get better at carving by making lots of kindling.

Once the big cuss was over, I decided to set up a production line as I had two frames to make capitals for.

So now it's nine in a row, cutting between the knots. There's a reason for me to do this and it forms part of my research into this frame.

I'll tell all about it next week when the carving's done and dusted.


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## Adam W. (22 May 2021)

Beads, pearls, hand cut ornament and shopping. 

This way please ☞ .....https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/hand-cutting-ornamental-mouldings.131040/


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## MCTWoodwork (23 May 2021)

Beautiful work Adam, can't wait to see it stained/sealed or even guilded??


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## Adam W. (26 May 2021)

These are proving to be a bit of a challenge...

So I made 9 in a row, thinking I had enough for 4 capitals and a spare.

This was not to be, as I need 3 per capital.

Glue at the ready......







Mitered together with a bit of infill to adjust the rebate. Most of it gets planed off in the fitting, but it's better to have more than less.








And I can start carving them. This is where I learn about grain direction, as if I even look at it the wrong way it crumbles into tiny pieces, but cut it the right way and it cuts a dream leaving a nice polished surface.

The dodgy looking gap at the edge of the volute gets carved off.

My good lady said it looks like a random mess for the burner. She's got a "Danish" way with words that one, straight for the jugular.


----------



## Adam W. (27 May 2021)

Blimey !

A bit of adjustment and we're done with the woodwork.









I need to sink the capitals a little more.






And add a couple of bits of moulding on the fields of the pilasters.

Then it's back to clay and plaster.


----------



## Adam W. (7 Jun 2021)

It's starting to come together now. 

The carving is about done and I've started to apply the stucco once I get it thin enough. It's taken a few attempts and a bit of fiddling to the formwork to get it right.

The entablature frieze ended up at about 1mm after I sanded it, which was my target thickness, but I think the predella frieze will be a bit thicker and need some adjustment once it's in place. It's a bit of a squeeze getting it on, but it's all there.






While the predella frieze is drying, I'm starting on the modelling of the sight edge decoration and hopefully that will be done by Friday and I can then start on the pillasters and tart up the carving once everything's fixed in place and it acts as one unit.

MA interview tomorrow.


----------



## Inspector (7 Jun 2021)

Best of luck with the interview. Not that you need it with your skills.  

Pete


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## Fred48 (8 Jun 2021)

All the best for the interview today. 
Fred


----------



## Adam W. (8 Jun 2021)

Thanks.

Here's the what the frieze panels look like just before sanding, they feel robust, but really they just want to fall apart if you look at them the wrong way.

I scraped it flat on the back when it was still in the mould, as they snap if flexed and the mould is fairly deep and quite thick in parts. Then I laid it on a sheet of glass so that I could apply downwards pressure to make the mould flex so I can get it off.

I sanded it down to make it as flat and thin as possible and I broke three before I got one out and I broke the fourth when I was glueing it down, but it didn't move apart and all the coats of rabbit skin glue and gesso which come later will hold it all together.








This is how the originals were made in 1500, so I'm on the right track.

This one is in the workshop at the National gallery in London and the cast is very thin considering the amount of modelling it has. Theirs was cast in much smaller sections all joined together to form the full width of the frieze.


----------



## dzj (8 Jun 2021)

Very interesting!
How did they make the mould back in 1500s? Perhaps some kind of clay?


----------



## Cooper (8 Jun 2021)

dzj said:


> How did they make the mould back in 1500s? Perhaps some kind of clay?


Surely they would have carved a pattern on thicker wood and then made a mould from gelatin. 

I'm interested that Adam is achieving such delicate carving from pine, with such an open grain. I had presumed that all the fiddly bits would be from Lime. 

Its so interesting to see the production techniques so clearly.
Keep up the good work!


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## Adam W. (8 Jun 2021)

dzj said:


> Very interesting!
> How did they make the mould back in 1500s? Perhaps some kind of clay?


I think they modelled it in clay, as it's quicker than carving one and the mould was made of gelatin and wax. The original ones all look like they've been modelled rather than carved and the Venetians were experts at applied stucco at the time.

Larger applied ornaments for buildings were first modelled in lime and hair plaster and covered with a coating of gypsum plaster, so the modelling skills would have been an industry standard.

But all I can do really is speculate and go on evidence from the two examples that I have looked at in London.


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## Adam W. (8 Jun 2021)

So it looks like I've got a place on the MA, which will give me the opportunity to explore curved planed work and fan vaults.

Tops! \o/

The second frieze came out first try and it's now applied....







The foliate mask chappies are looking suitably grumpy.

I'll attempt to shed light on the reasons why this frame was made in 1500 and what the symbolism represents in the frieze over the next few days, as it's heavily loaded with meaning and will also go some way in explaining why it's more than just a pretty container for an image.


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## Adam W. (8 Jun 2021)

So, I first came across a reproduction of this frame in the V&A museum and it contained one of my favourite Crivelli paintings of the Madonna and Child....... Remember the painting, it's important.

This was made by Zoe Allan, head of conservation at the museum.






Then I came across it in a book.......Same frame, different ornamentation on the predella.



Then I came across part of what looked very much like it lying on a bench in the conservation department of the National Gallery in London......







Then another bit of it, the capitals this time, in the National Gallery on a painting of Doge Leonardo Loredan......

That sight edge moulding looks very similar too.







It was one of those things that kept appearing when I wasn't looking for it and not being one to walk past something which seemed to be calling out, I decided to find out more.

And of course the best way of finding out about this type of stuff it to try and make it in the original way. And whilst I was making the first one, I kept having loads of questions to ask about everything, so I went a visiting........


----------



## Inspector (8 Jun 2021)

Must have been from the IKEA of the day.    

Pete


----------



## Adam W. (9 Jun 2021)

That's exactly what I thought.


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## paulrbarnard (9 Jun 2021)

If not IKEA then a lot of different Adam and Zoe’s through the years.


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## Adam W. (9 Jun 2021)

So I dug deeper into how it was made by making one...obviously the best way to find things out about an object than the usual academic approach of just reading about it.

Initially, I thought the original was carved until I read the indepth analysis that the V&A undertook when they wrote their book on a selection of Italian renaissance frames.

Here they described the applied ornamentation as gesso. We use the word gesso to describe a mixture of rabbit skin glue and whiting (Calcium carbonate), which is applied to frames to support a gilded or polychromed finish.

I know how to make gesso, so I tried it out several times using all sorts of ratios of chalk to glue......It didn't work, as it shrank badly and looked like a dogs dinner.







More research was needed into the renaissance way of doing things. Luckily there's a little book published it the 15th century by Cennino d'Andrea Cennini. We've all heard of him right ?

It's called _"Il Libro dell'Arte"_ and he talks vaguely about two types of gesso, _gesso grosso_ and _gesso sottile. _Italian was needed to figure this one out, but I already knew what _grosso_ was, that's means thick or fat. Luckily I have an Italian native speaker to hand and she kindly explained that _sottile_ means thin. A ha!

Lightbulb moment !

What does gesso mean then ? Well that means plaster. Not skim coat plaster, but what we call Plaster of Paris, (Calcium sulphate hemihydrate). Lets get proper about this, Ca(SO4).1/2H2O.

And I'm off down the experimental archaeology rabbit hole........


----------



## Cooper (9 Jun 2021)

Adam W. said:


> What does gesso mean then ? Well that means plaster. Not skim coat plaster, but what we call Plaster of Paris, (Calcium sulphate hemihydrate). Lets get proper about this, Ca(SO4).1/2H2O.


Would this be the same as Victorians cast the repeat sections of the decorations in our cornice frieze? The reason I suggested that the original would have been carved was that I was told when plasterers made jelly moulds they had a very limited life and the patterns would have to be repeatedly used. 

I agree that modeling in clay would be much easier. Years ago a friend wanted to have cast iron fire surrounds made in China and required a pattern based on an Edwardian apple themed design. He asked me to make the pattern. I tried all sorts of of ways, initially using sculpting wax as used for bronze casting, that didn't go well so I had a go with clay and achieved decent results but the only way I could get a tough pattern was use my clay model to make a silicon rubber mould which I could cast into. Not available to the Veniceiens!

This thread is so fascinating.


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## Adam W. (9 Jun 2021)

That's called compo or composition and needs a wooden mould because it's filled under pressure using a whopping great wooden press. The trouble with compo is that it cracks when it dries and it takes a long time to dry, but it's a quick process to make repeat sections which can be cut, applied and gilded.

Zoe Allan made her casts from compo, but I'm doing a research project where there was no time limit to complete something and wanted to find out how the Venetians did it during the renaissance period.



Cooper said:


> Would this be the same as Victorians cast the repeat sections of the decorations in our cornice frieze? The reason I suggested that the original would have been carved was that I was told when plasterers made jelly moulds they had a very limited life and the patterns would have to be repeatedly used.



Forget what I wrote above. Yes your cornice is most likely plaster of Paris, but I'm not sure what the mould would have been made from. Compo is for picture frames.


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## scooby (12 Jun 2021)

Adam W. said:


> So it looks like I've got a place on the MA, which will give me the opportunity to explore curved planed work and fan vaults.



Congratulations on MA. Theres a lot of excellent work on the frame, well done.


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## Adam W. (15 Jun 2021)

So, I've been doing a bit of sketch modelling for the moulding around the sight edge. It's the quickest way to do this kind of thing and as I'm working in clay, I can add and take away elements as I go along.






I just model a long strip and then pour a silicone mould which I take a cast of once and I can then take my time refining the initial plaster model without having to worry about it drying out.

Then I'll make another mould which I cast the finished mouldings from. I can re-use this mould for the other frame I've made and any other frames after that.

Back to CaSO4.1/2H2O and how to change it into CaSO4.2H2O tomorrow.

Oooo err !


----------



## Adam W. (11 Jul 2021)

It takes a long time for tomorrow to come in this house !






The sight edge moulding is on and the grotesque ornamentation for the pilasters is underway and its time to get the CaSO4.2H2O out and make gesso sottile and pastiglia.

To convert CaSO4.1/2H2O into CaSO4.2H2O I had to resort to a bit of schoolboy chemistry and employ Dihydrogen monoxide H2O.

I combined 9 parts Dihydrogen monoxide to one part Calcium sulphate hemihydrate in a suitably sized laboratory approved container and continuously agitated the solution for 45 minutes until the exothermic reaction was completely exhausted.







Actually, I dumped plaster of Paris into a lot of water in the gilding room bin and stirred it with a stick.

Once the initial part of the process was completed, the solution slaked for a further 30 days, with a water change each week and a stir twice daily.







When 30 days was up it was drained in the gilding lab sink using bank robbers headgear and set it to dry for a further 30 days.

I then ground it up to a fine powder, sieved it and added it to hot rabbit skin glue mixed with 10 parts water to make pastiglia. This was used to fill the gap between the cast gesso and the joinery of the frame.







There's a lot of gypsum in a small amount of glue and it's surprising how much the glue can take. Onced mixed I can keep it in the fridge for a week and use it to fill any cracks which appear in the joint, as it shrinks quite a lot when it dries. It needs to be warmed up in hot water before it becomes plastic enough to use and I apply it with modelling leaf spatula.

Here's the gap which needs filling. It's there because it was easy to snap the cast, so I had to make sure there was enough room for it to fall into place easily.








You can buy CaSO4.2H2O (gypsum) in a bag as Gesso di Bologna and ovoid all this marlarkey, but I wanted the experience of doing it from scratch, as no one could tell me how it was done, apart from Cennini in his wonderful little book.

Next up gesso sottile.


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## Adam W. (16 Jul 2021)

Yet more swirling ornamentation, now the grotesque ornamentation has been modeled and applied to the pilasters.

I don't think there's any more room for anything else, it's certainly busy and compliments the carved chest quite well.






A weekend of grinding gesso lies ahead to get ready for the gilding.


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## paulrbarnard (16 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Yet more swirling ornamentation, now the grotesque ornamentation has been modeled and applied to the pilasters.
> 
> I don't think there's any more room for anything else, it's certainly busy and compliments the carved chest quite well.
> 
> ...


I love how you have mounted a picture of a workshop in it.


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## Inspector (16 Jul 2021)

I was thinking a black velvet picture of Elvis would look perfect in it.  

Pete


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## Adam W. (16 Jul 2021)

The Tabernacle Church of Elvis


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## Adam W. (24 Jul 2021)

The gesso sottile is on, about 10 coats in all. It was a bit laborious to prepare but ended up being the best gesso I've used so far, very smooth and easy to apply.







I'm finally getting to like the frame and it's satisfying to see it coming together after so much research and modelling work







The light is bouncing around on the top cornice of the predella and lighting up the grotesque ornament nicely. I intend to leave the gilding burnished, as I want to see how the frame lights up in candle light, which would have been the original intention in the 16th. Century.

The current fashion is to distress the gilding and tone it down, as we view frames in artificial light which makes the gilding seem harsh. I made a partiglia test panel a few weeks ago and photographed it in candle light and I think it looks lovely.








Much warmer and easier on the eye than when viewed in artificial light.






Next up a few coats of bole before gilding.


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## ecokestove (25 Jul 2021)

Inspector said:


> I was thinking a black velvet picture of Elvis would look perfect in it.
> 
> Pete


As long as it was the pre army Elvis, and not the Las Vegas version!


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## ecokestove (25 Jul 2021)

I was taught water gilding, gesso, etc and I know what a time consuming and exacting (and exasperating} process it is. I think you've done an astonishing job. Frankly, the gilding and faulting would drive me mad.


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## MARK.B. (25 Jul 2021)

Got to say that looks great  , you must have the patience of a saint doing all that detailed work, way way beyond my capabilities and patience but i really enjoy seeing how its done and you have the nack of explaining what you are doing and the reasons why .


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## Adam W. (25 Jul 2021)

Thank you, it's a lot of work as you rightly say, but I'm really enjoying myself... in a sloooow kind of way.

I guess it keeps the madness at bay.

After 1 hours mortar work the bole clay is ground to a fine dust. It comes in all sorts of natural colours and I'm using yellow for the base coat which supports the gold leaf. The bole gives the leaf a cushion against the hard gesso and enables a high burnish to be achieved on the work. It also hides any misdemeanors and discrepencies due to slack finishing of the gesso.









It also tones the gold leaf a little. I'll put some red bole on top of the yellow in places where I'll be burnishing and leave the yellow layer in the background which will receive the punchwork. It's mixed with dilute hide glue as a binder and needs to be kept warm when in use.






It lives in a bain Marie to keep it warm and fluid, otherwise it'll thicken and will be impossible to apply in a smooth layer. Once it's like a thin paint, it's simply brushed on to the gesso layer of the frame.

I use a 1" red sable cats toungue brush to apply it which is hideously expensive and only comes out on special occasions. Gilders have a thing about eyewateringly expensive brushes made of exotic materials and care needs to be taken with the handling, cleaning and storage of these valuable tools.







I'll apply 4 coats to half of the frame, then turn it upside down and do the other half when it's dry so as not to drip bole all over the frame when I'm applying it to the underside of the cornice.








I'm applying quite thick coats of bole as I've heard tales of people being able to burnish 400 year old work back to a high finish. I think this is because historic bole was applied in much thicker coats than modern gilding technique calls for.

This may have something to do modern work having more in common with the highly finished carved and joined work of the Victorians than renaissance Venetians, but this is a bit of a theory that I'm experimenting with rather than factual evidence.

So we'll see what happens in a few days time and hopefully it won't all flake off into a heap on the floor at the end of the day.


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## Adam W. (26 Jul 2021)

Moving along.

Loads of sanding, fettling and general lamenting on my shoddy handiwork today.

It's up on an easel so that I can flip it over when I want to and attention is being paid to all the small blemishes, drips and discrepancies that you get with stuff like this and I'm going through the wet and dry quite nicely.

It's one of those jobs where you don't seem to be getting anywhere. Tomorrow will see a change in colour with the red bole making an appearance and I need to do a bit of research into making glair for the gilding.

I'm glad I put the dentiles higher up than they should be now, as I like the shadow they cast on the bar below which doesn't interfere with the arabesque on the entablature frieze. I think the blue of the LED lights is changing the colour quite radically at the moment, but it's interesting seeing the way the changing light picks out all the different details.

Hopefully it's going to sparkle in the candle light once it's gilded and I want those flat surfaces to shine like the sun, so they meed to be blemish free and as flat as possible.






Here's a nice one from the Lady chapel in Westminster with its 15th century painting.

















Lady Chapel | Westminster Abbey


The 16th-century historian John Leland called the Henry VII Lady Chapel ‘the wonder of the world’ and it continues to inspire wonder amongst visitors today.




www.westminster-abbey.org


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## ecokestove (27 Jul 2021)

What will you be using the glair for? My, limited, understanding is that it is used for masking off parts that you don't want the leaf to stick to. Isn't it just egg white?


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## Adam W. (27 Jul 2021)

That's right, slightly fermented egg white.

As far as I know it's mixed in with the gilding water in a very small quantity to act as an adhesive. Apparently, but it may not be the case, glair was used instead of rabbit skin glue in renaissance Italy.

I've yet to prove it was so, so a load of research is needed.

But I could well be wrong.


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## Adam W. (29 Jul 2021)

I need to get a move on now, as I'm going to try to get on a plane with it to take it to London.

I've ditched the glair, although I'll use it next time and I've gone for neat potato snapps instead. It seems to be working ok and evaporates quickly and without residue, as it doesn't contain loads of sugar.







That big flat sill kicks the light back at the sight edge moulding quite nicely and the sides of the pilasters should do the same if I get them smooth enough.






I'll gild the predella (the frieze at the bottom) and then flip it over and work downwards from the sill. Hopefully I won't run out of gold.

I should be about half way by the end of today, as I'm getting quicker as the day goes on and should be slapping it on quite nicely this afternoon.

It's going to be very bling, bling!


----------



## Adam W. (29 Jul 2021)

I
Think
I'm
Slowly
Going
Mad.


----------



## foxbat (29 Jul 2021)

You're not! This is chuffing amazing!! Almost there and can't wait to see it in place


----------



## Inspector (30 Jul 2021)

No flies on you dude.

Pete


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## Adam W. (30 Jul 2021)

I changed the potato snaps out for some vodka as I think the snapps has a bit of sugar in it which makes it difficult to burnish.

The vodka seems better, but it evaporates quickly and I need to be quick getting the gold on. Apparently gin is good but someone drank that.

So the sun comes streaming through the lantern on the roof and the thing lights up. I'm convinced that these frames were as magnificent as possible as they served as the boundary between secular and sacred spaces.

When I get a bit more time, I'll explain my thinking on that.


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## MARK.B. (30 Jul 2021)

Cat's tongue for a brush  now that's just cruel beyond word's 
lovely glow to that gilding


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## Adam W. (31 Jul 2021)

I'll divide this into a couple of parts.


A bit of art history.

The depiction of the sacra conversazioni is a big deal in North Italian renaissance art. Below is the San Zaccaria altarpiece painted in 1505 by Giovanni Bellini, which depicts the Madonna and child flanked by St. Peter the Apostle, St. Catherine of Alexandria, St. Lucy and St. Jerome.

The virgin martyrs are both carrying palm fronds, the symbol of martyrdom and both hold their instruments of torture. St peter on the left holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven and St Jerome, credited with translating the bible reads a book.







The virgin sits on a throne in a niche with ornamental pilasters crowned with typical Venetian capitals. The throne is crowned by a mask which is thought to be King Solomon.







The architectural details of the throne and the niche are all represented in the tabernacle frame and if you crop the Virgin and Child you get this.......







Which looks a bit like the painting in the lady chapel altar at Westminster.........Dinners ready.


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## dzj (31 Jul 2021)

This has become the first thread I check out when I log on here.
Thanks for taking the time to enlighten a bunch of benighted blighters.


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## TRITON (31 Jul 2021)

Adam W. said:


> general lamenting on my shoddy handiwork today.


Come now, nobody here looking at that beautiful frame could accuse you of that.
Although if you want to keep in character of the era, a bit of self flagellation wouldn't be out of kilter


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## Adam W. (3 Aug 2021)

More gold.......

I'm having to gild with the lights off, as it's too bright otherwise.


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## Adam W. (4 Aug 2021)

I've moved on to the sight edge and stepped down a karat. I've done this because I want to save all the 24 karat Italian gold for the larger areas.

The sight edge is the only area which gets 3 layers of gold, as the pearls would be too fiddly to fault and overlapping the sheets is a much easier way of ensuring a decent coverage.






I've got the frame up on an easel so that it's at a good height for gilding and I don't need to bend over the frame if it was laying on the bench. There's a small shelf on the front which carries the gilding tools and book of gold leaf on the right.







I'm using an assortment of brushes. The two flat brushes with the card handles are the tips and are used to pick up and apply the gold. They need to have a bit of oil on them, so I'm constantly rubbing them across my face before picking up the gold. The wide one is made from kolinsky hair.

The three fat brushes are squirrel hair in genuine goose quills and are used to tamp the gold down onto the details. These brushes aren't cheap and deed to be looked after, as I don't want to have to buy them again.

All the gilding action starts on the cushion which has a velum wind shield to protect the leaf from blowing away. Even though I'm using extra thick gold. any draught sends it flying and if you look at it the wrong way it disintegrates into nothing.

It gets laid out flat on the cushion and I cut it into strips with a gilding knife. This needs to have a very smooth and half sharp edge to cut the gold without tearing it to bits. It's taken me four days of tuning to get it to cut nicely.

I think it cuts about right now and I can slice a whole sheet into 4mm squares without it tearing or crumpling up.

It's funny old stuff as you need to be fairly firm with it to get it to behave, but not rough as it just turns to dust.







Once it's cut into strips I just work around the frame laying it on with a 2mm overlap and then tamping it down before the vodka evaporates completely. The vodka activates the hide glue in the bole and gesso which sticks the gold down.






The rose detail of the sight edge has recieved one coat and I'm thinking that I might colour the background with azurite instead of faulting it and having it completely gold. 

The two different types of gold are supposed to have different colours, but this is very subtle and I can't really see it because of the reflected light from the other parts of the frame.


----------



## paulrbarnard (4 Aug 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I've moved on to the sight edge and stepped down a karat. I've done this because I want to save all the 24 karat Italian gold for the larger areas.
> 
> The sight edge is the only area which gets 3 layers of gold, as the pearls would be too fiddly to fault and overlapping the sheets is a much easier way of ensuring a decent coverage.
> 
> ...


Wow


----------



## Blaidd-Drwg (5 Aug 2021)

This is fascinating. When I was in class, this was the most difficult thing I tried. But it's also the one thing I want to get back into (gilding).


----------



## Adam W. (5 Aug 2021)

Blaidd-Drwg said:


> This is fascinating. When I was in class, this was the most difficult thing I tried. But it's also the one thing I want to get back into (gilding).


Here's a nice video from the framing shop at the National Gallery about some large frames for the Titian exhibition to whet your gilding appetite.


----------



## MARK.B. (5 Aug 2021)

Really starting to show the details now the gilding is almost done ( or is it ), out of curiosity just how much will the finished piece weigh ?.


----------



## TRITON (5 Aug 2021)

I seem to remember somewhere the original size for gilding was honey, egg yolk and incredibly blood. Though whose blood it didnt say.


----------



## Adam W. (5 Aug 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> Really starting to show the details now the gilding is almost done ( or is it ), out of curiosity just how much will the finished piece weigh ?.


Last day of gilding tomorrow, then there's loads of punchwork and a bit of egg tempera to do. The whole thing weighs 13kg and I don't think it'll get any heavier unless I put a marble or plaster relief in it, then it'll need some beefing up.

It looks nice in low natural light, which is what I wanted.


----------



## MARK.B. (5 Aug 2021)

Thank you, i would have guessed much heavier  perhaps a glass or two of that Vodka that is in danger of evaporating  and an early night, you have busy day tomorrow.


----------



## Adam W. (5 Aug 2021)

TRITON said:


> I seem to remember somewhere the original size for gilding was honey, egg yolk and incredibly blood. Though whose blood it didnt say.


Dragons blood, apparently. Quite where they found all the dragons is anyones guess.


----------



## misterfish (6 Aug 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Dragons blood, apparently. Quite where they found all the dragons is anyones guess.


I assume they used the Dragon Blood Tree - Dracaena cinnabari

I also expect the dragon's blood extracted from it was red as modern gilding usually uses a red paint or dye as an undercoat.

Keep up the goow work

Jeff


----------



## Adam W. (6 Aug 2021)

It's interesting to see how it changes in the light, it looks brilliant this morning.


----------



## stuartpaul (6 Aug 2021)

What a wonderful bit of work! Really nice write up as well, - thank you.

I’m the sort of saddo who when we visit the National Gallery spends as much time looking at the frames as I do at the paintings. A number are truly amazing and I’d love to have a look behind the scenes at how the look after them.


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## Adam W. (7 Aug 2021)

Thank you.

There are some good videos about framing and conservation on the National Gallery youtube site. You can get to it from the video on the Titian frames which I posted. There's a smattering of other stuff, but picture frames have been seriously overlooked by art historians.

Peter Schade at the National seems to be on a personal quest to change that and he's set himself the task of making sure that the paintings in the National Gallery are framed properly. No mean feat, as that's quite a few paintings.

I'm interested in them as a piece of work in their own right and particularly like the progression through the different styles of Italian architectural 15th. - 17th. Century frames.

Here's a small, unfinished 17th. Century Sansovino frame (my favorite style) I made for a museum in Milan.














The Frame Blog


Articles, interviews and reviews to do with antique and modern picture frames




theframeblog.com







https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/fram/hd_fram.htm


----------



## Adam W. (7 Aug 2021)

And here's the most amazing miniature Sansovino frame from the V&A. All that architecture parceled up in a small package.


What a wonderful thing.....


----------



## Adam W. (8 Aug 2021)

5 hours of punchwork later, it sparkles.....






All I have to do now is paint the egg tempera. I'll use aquamarine, as that's what I have until I get some azurite from London to do it properly.


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## Adam W. (8 Aug 2021)

Now the blue is going on.......


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## Adam W. (8 Aug 2021)

Sorry to keep posting similar pictures, but I'm really enjoying the way this thing lights up in the changing light. It's doing exactly what I thought it would do.

Modern thinking is that frames should be toned down and the lighting remaining the same, but toning down the finish decreases the luminosity of the gilding, which I think defeats the object of gilding


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## MARK.B. (8 Aug 2021)

You have no need to apologize, you're detailed description and lots of pics are what brings me back  , as you say the play of natural light can be subtle but make all the difference to how the piece looks , now a blazing log fire and candle light will bring out those hidden details but change constantly as the flames flicker and the fire dies down, be a sight to see though in a comfy chair with a tipple of your favorite poison


----------



## nickds1 (8 Aug 2021)

This is a truly amazing piece of work - absolutely glorious!

If I could ask some crude questions please?

How much do you think you've spent on special materials and tools and how many hours a) working on it and b) researching around it?


----------



## Adam W. (9 Aug 2021)

nickds1 said:


> This is a truly amazing piece of work - absolutely glorious!
> 
> If I could ask some crude questions please?
> 
> How much do you think you've spent on special materials and tools and how many hours a) working on it and b) researching around it?


I've used about £1000 on materials and tools.
Hundreds of hours on research, including writing a dissertation on it.

But I reckon I can make the next one in 4 weeks if I use the frieze that I have made and bagged gesso. If I set up a production line, I could make them even quicker. Which is what the whole project was about.

How long did it take to make in the 16th. Century? 

I reckon they were easily knocking them out in a week or so, and they would have had three or more people bashing these things out with a strict boundary between shop trades.


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## paulrbarnard (9 Aug 2021)

I don’t think you have mentioned it yet but is there an intended picture to be mounted in the frame? I fully understand this is about the frame and manufacturing techniques but it is at the end of the day a frame for a picture and it got me wondering what your final intentions for the frame are.


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## Adam W. (9 Aug 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> I don’t think you have mentioned it yet but is there an intended picture to be mounted in the frame? I fully understand this is about the frame and manufacturing techniques but it is at the end of the day a frame for a picture and it got me wondering what your final intentions for the frame are.


My only intention was to produce the frame as a research project and I have not thought a great deal about what to do with it afterwards. It doesn't go with the rest of the house, although they are from the same period, so it'll live in the workshop for a while if I can find a space for it.

I was intending to exhibit it in London along with the chest as part of my degree show, but it's proving more than a headache getting it there. There was a time when I would have put it all on a pallet and just sent it, but the requirement to now obtain customs clearance and the lack of any clear guidance on how to do it makes it very difficult.


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## Inoffthered (10 Aug 2021)

Have you posted this thread on the Framers Forum?
I think they would be interested.




__





The Framers Forum - Index page






theframersforum.com


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## Adam W. (10 Aug 2021)

Inoffthered said:


> Have you posted this thread on the Framers Forum?
> I think they would be interested.
> 
> 
> ...


No I haven't, but I think one forum is enough for me otherwise nothing would get done.


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## nickds1 (10 Aug 2021)

Go for it (please!). If the exhibition is open to the public I for one would love to see it in the flesh...


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## Adam W. (10 Aug 2021)

nickds1 said:


> Go for it (please!). If the exhibition is open to the public I for one would love to see it in the flesh...




Sorry, but it's just too complicated at the moment.

There may be another window in late October for me to exhibit it in London along with the 17th. Century Sansovino frame that I'll start on next week. However at the moment the frame and chest will be staying in Denmark. 

If things change I'll take it over, as both the London Guilds who support me and the V&A would like to see it too.


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## nickds1 (10 Aug 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Sorry, but it's just too complicated at the moment.
> 
> There may be another window in late October for me to exhibit it in London along with the 17th. Century Sansovino frame that I'll start on next week. However at the moment the frame and chest will be staying in Denmark.
> 
> If things change I'll take it over, as both the London Guilds who support me and the V&A would like to see it too.



Whenever would be great! We were at the V&A last week for the Epic Iran exhibition. Extraordinary. Spent hours in there and really want to do a bit more reading and return for a closer inspection of certain exhibits. Spent years in the Gulf region but for political reasons, never got to Iran - a source of regret. Maybe one day.


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## jcassidy (11 Aug 2021)

Adam W. said:


> My only intention was to produce the frame as a research project and I have not thought a great deal about what to do with it afterwards. It doesn't go with the rest of the house, although they are from the same period, so it'll live in the workshop for a while if I can find a space for it.
> 
> I was intending to exhibit it in London along with the chest as part of my degree show, but it's proving more than a headache getting it there. There was a time when I would have put it all on a pallet and just sent it, but the requirement to now obtain customs clearance and the lack of any clear guidance on how to do it makes it very difficult.



Ship it to Ireland, load it on a hire van and catch a ferry from Belfast...


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