# Record Vice History



## ianto3030

Hello All, 
New member here. Discovered this very informative site and subsequently had many problems/queries solved just by reading other questions. But now i have one of my own and cannot find any information anywhere so i thought i'll ask you guys.
Was given an old Record 53E metal vice several years ago and have only now found the impetus needed ( sick of chasing the workmate around the garage) to get on and fit it to my bench with the much valued help of my dad who was a joiner in a previous life.
There seems lots of information about dating older Record tools available but i was wondering if there is any information or way of roughly dating my vice. It hasn't got a bench dog but is quick release, opens just over 15" wide and weighs over 3 stone.
Wondered if there were any significant pattern changes or innovations that could be zeroed in to a time zone.
Appreciate any ideas at all and look forward to continuing on this great site. Thanks,


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## Cheshirechappie

Hello ianto, and welcome to the forum!

I can't give a direct answer to your question. Record vices were made from about 1909 until about 2000. Yours sounds to be at least a generation or two old, but since nobody (as far as I know) has documented the various changes in design detail - if there were many - in the same way that has been done for handplanes, pinning it down closer than that would be almost impossible, I'd say.

However, here's a link to a bit of history of C & J Hampton, the firm that first used the 'Record' brand-name, which may at least give a bit of background.

http://www.recordhandplanes.com/history.html


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## Jacob

The only detail I'm aware of is that earlier ones (like the one I bought new in about 1980) have a cover over the thread to keep shavings off, but later ones don't. I don't know how much later though.
They are brilliant vices without a doubt, and last forever in normal use..


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## Dovetaildave

One of my most favourite tools I own, lubed, a dream to use, such a smooth action.

Can say when it was for sale but.....

I have in my other hand ; 
C&J Hampton LTD
SHEFFIELD 2
ENGLAND

catalogue No 16
Copyright 1950, reprinted 1961.

53E NOT there, 53, 53A, 53P ARE there. :?:


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## AndyT

It's not in my 1959 edition of Planecraft either. What does the letter E signify?


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## Vann

I don't know how to accurately date these, but earlier ones have a domed end to the screw shaft (where the handle passes through)




Whereas later ones have a flat end on the shaft



My own Record No.52 vice dates to the mid 1970s and has the flat end.

Another feature on earlier vices is the "RD 664 709" cast into the front jaw (Registered Design No.) which features on vices shown in the 1938 catalogue, and the 1950 edition of "Planecraft", but was gone by mid 1970s.




HTH. Disclaimer: I don't own all the vices shown in this post - I haven't joined the vice slope (yet). (hammer) If, on the other hand, it were planes ....  

Cheers, Vann.


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## Jacob

Just google http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4651251550/


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## toolsntat

Jacob":ad3aj0es said:


> Just google http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4651251550/



Guess that's why it is not in Leslie Harrison's reprint No15 from 1938 either......

Cheers
Andy


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## bugbear

toolsntat":gwbrrmmk said:


> Jacob":gwbrrmmk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just google http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4651251550/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess that's why it is not in Leslie Harrison's reprint No15 from 1938 either......
> 
> Cheers
> Andy
Click to expand...


Interesting that all those improvements do sound like genuine improvements - normally the earlier stuff is better.

BugBear


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## ianto3030

Thanks guys. I have gotten more info here in one day than i have searched for in a week.
My vice definitely looks more like mid 70's model with the snub nose as shown in Vanns second pic.
It does have the main screw shavings protector cover fitted though.
I can't believe how much i'm looking forward to getting this up and running. Been ignored as 'tomorows project' for way too long.
My Dad is coming over tonight to help me fit this beauty. Doesn't work get in the way of fun sometimes. Haha.
Just as an afterthought, does anyone know the reason of the model number as in 53 E? 
Does it signify a difference of trim? Just curious. 
Thanks again too all.


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## bugbear

ianto3030":1pr68jgi said:


> Thanks guys. I have gotten more info here in one day than i have searched for in a week.
> My vice definitely looks more like mid 70's model with the snub nose as shown in Vanns second pic.
> It does have the main screw shavings protector cover fitted though.
> I can't believe how much i'm looking forward to getting this up and running. Been ignored as 'tomorows project' for way too long.
> My Dad is coming over tonight to help me fit this beauty. Doesn't work get in the way of fun sometimes. Haha.



Here's a really good tip for vise fitting:

http://web.archive.org/web/200102082209 ... tip05.html

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe

+1 - I was just about to suggest that.


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## AndyT

bugbear":2vsgq9o6 said:


> ianto3030":2vsgq9o6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks guys. I have gotten more info here in one day than i have searched for in a week.
> My vice definitely looks more like mid 70's model with the snub nose as shown in Vanns second pic.
> It does have the main screw shavings protector cover fitted though.
> I can't believe how much i'm looking forward to getting this up and running. Been ignored as 'tomorows project' for way too long.
> My Dad is coming over tonight to help me fit this beauty. Doesn't work get in the way of fun sometimes. Haha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a really good tip for vise fitting:
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/200102082209 ... tip05.html
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


+1! That's an essential tip.

But on a more controversial note, you'll need to decide whether to cut back into your bench so that the front of the back jaw of the vice is flush with the front edge of the bench, or mount the vice forwards of the bench. Apparently opinions differ!

Mine was in line with the front edge of the bench and will be again when I finish my new bench top.


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## Jacob

AndyT":3csa2stl said:


> .....
> +1! That's an essential tip.


Actually it's much easier to fit a vice if you tip your bench on to it's back


> But on a more controversial note, you'll need to decide whether to cut back into your bench so that the front of the back jaw of the vice is flush with the front edge of the bench, or mount the vice forwards of the bench. Apparently opinions differ!
> 
> Mine was in line with the front edge of the bench and will be again when I finish my new bench top.


I cut mine in flush, with a bit of thin ply to cover the inner jaw face. Not sure why but it works OK!


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## Racers

Jacob":2ehd2tn2 said:


> Actually it's much easier to fit a vice if you tip your bench on to it's back



Hi, Jacob

Only if you unload all the offcuts from under the bench, widen the garage to allow it to tilt backwards, and get a couple of friends to help.

 

Pete


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## Phil Pascoe

I set mine with the liner flush with the front ( not the steelwork ), about 15mm down so that both cheeks could be lipped to protect the steel from being hit by saws etc. I have seen them set with the steel flush with the top of the bench, but to me it's awful.


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## GazPal

I've always inlet the rear jaw with it's liner flush with the leading edge of the bench. I also tend to try and have approx 1" of cover, with jaw liner tops level with bench top and above the jaws to safeguard tool edges. This also adds a little extra handy depth to the vise and can be even deeper if the jaw liner material is suitably rigid.

Many seem to settle for lining their vise without extending it's width. Most cast iron vise can handle jaw extensions up to approx. half their width at either side, i.e. A 10" vise can be extended to 18" without loss of clamping ability. Record used to specify extension and clamping capacities, but I can't find the literature I had which backs up this fact.


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## ianto3030

Good tip thanks guys.
In my humble opinion i wanted my vice rear jaw to sit flush with the bench apron for supporting longer pieces. As soon as the vice is mounted there is going to be some pieces added to the legs to make it all on one plane where i can then add holes for adjustable inch dowel positions for further support in longer pieces.
I've made some nice wooden faces to wrap around the vice jaws both on the sides and over the top which will sit flush with the bench top when fitted.
I managed to source some new machine bolts which match the original thread of the jaws as they are threaded and not just drilled, so it all fits together really nicely. Roll on 5pm so i can get outta here and on with the task at hand.
Incidentally, i saw an interesting idea on another website of a front vise which had the bare metal rear jaw housed into the bench and then the apron was attached over the bench length. Gave me something to think about for a while but i've been saving an old 40mm thick oak board for the jaws so that's the road for me. 
Maybe next time..............


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## flh801978

As Jacob mentioned in page 1 i concur that they are brilliant vices but you can be caught unawares as I was buying secondhand....they don't last forever.

I bought a no 53 with quick release and bench dog off ebay It was very cheap as most are if its an auction and starts cheap. I tend to search for heavy stuff by nearest to me.
It looked all good in the photos and the description was good ( chap inherited it of his father) Paint was excellent original condition.
On collection I didnt really take much notice of it other than yes the paint looked original just dusty.
When it came round to fitting it I found that it was absolutely s*******
The screw had worn the hole in the front jaw so much that the screw was about to pass through.
To repair involved stripping out the front jaw removing the guide shafts ( they are tight !!) then boring the worn hole out on my miller and then machining a top hat bearing in steel to an interference fit in the jaw hole
The shaft appears to have no wear on it.
I can't imagine still why it had worn so much when the rest of it looked so good ( poor quality casting maybe )

Having said all that its a great vice now and I'm sure the seller on ebay had no idea it was so worn
I just have to remember to lube the shaft where its steel against steel

I have 2 other record vices that look a lot older ( maybe 1950's models) that don't show any sign of wear anywhere

Ian


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## bugbear

flh801978":22220b85 said:


> When it came round to fitting it I found that it was absolutely s*******
> The screw had worn the hole in the front jaw so much that the screw was about to pass through.



I cannot imagine normal use doing that in finite time, especially since your vice sounds like one of the more recent types.

I would suspect some stray abrasive particles of some kind, some how.

BugBear


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## dickm

What method do folk recommend for lining the moving jaw of metal vices? Using solid timber means that any overlap beyond the jaws has short grain either across the top, or down the sides, depending which way you align it. So plywood seems the obvious solution. But the raw edge of plywood isn't very good for the exposed surface, so do you lip it with hardwood, but then have a similar problem of effectively short grain on the top? 
Suggestions??


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## Paul Chapman

dickm":ib4wfs8j said:


> What method do folk recommend for lining the moving jaw of metal vices? Using solid timber means that any overlap beyond the jaws has short grain either across the top, or down the sides, depending which way you align it.



Never had a problem with solid wood - I think you are worrying unnecessarily. I always have the grain running horizontally. Line the moving jaw piece with leather for better grip. 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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