# What are home alarms for, other than driving your neighbours up the wall?



## Pallet Fancier (15 Feb 2022)

Neighbour one door down has an alarm that's been going off since shortly after he left, this morning. All. ****ing. Day.

It's not as if we all down tools and rush out into the street and form a vigilante mob outside the house the moment we hear anything! So what the living hell is the point of these stupid devices? Do insurers give out discounts for having them? No insurer I've ever been with has. If some do, they're just as much fools, because they're about as useful in deterring thieves as a gravel driveway - all a gravel driveway does is coat the pavement with loose stone, provide ammunition for delinquent kids and make every day of your life harder as you trudge through a loose surface, push a cart or carry a heavy weight, or spend your life trying to pick out the fallen leaves so they don't mulch down and turn your gravel into the kind of stoney soil hill farmers weep about.

A home alarm is even more stupid than a gravel drive.

Grrrr

I shall now have a cup of tea. And contemplate getting the big ladder out. I think I left it next to the lump hammer...


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## Spectric (15 Feb 2022)

All you need is expanding foam, if you decide to burgle the house then over a few days just keep setting the alarm off and then people get used to it and will just ignore whilst you break in.


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## Sporky McGuffin (15 Feb 2022)

I believe expanding foam may be more effective (if less satisfying) than the lump hammer.


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## Pallet Fancier (15 Feb 2022)

They're ignoring it on day one, never mind day three or four. If this is a burglary tactic, someone is wasting his time. 

Lump hammer is more fun than foam


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## flying haggis (15 Feb 2022)

i thought the sounder was supposed to stop sounding after a certain length of time and there is a max time so it might be faulty


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## Pallet Fancier (15 Feb 2022)

flying haggis said:


> i thought the sounder was supposed to stop sounding after a certain length of time and there is a max time so it might be faulty



It's on... off... on... off... they all do this. It stops, you breath out, relax, it starts again and the vein in your forehead bursts. This one is really high pitched and screeching. Like having tinnitus.


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## Just4Fun (15 Feb 2022)

Pallet Fancier said:


> A home alarm is even more stupid than a gravel drive.


OK, I'll bite. What is wrong with a gravel drive?


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## DrPhill (15 Feb 2022)

I lived next door to a chap once - conspicuously well off. He asked me if I would check his house if his alarm went off when he went away on holiday. I declined - no way I wanted to interrupt felons doing their job. He was really disappointed - "what is the point of me having an alarm if you are not going to check it?". Shrug.
I use the 'look like a poor house with nothing to steal' strategy. Cheaper and easier. And really effective if you live next door to someone obviously well off.


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## Pedronicus (15 Feb 2022)

Our alarm goes off occasionally when someone walks on our gravel drive at dead of night!


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## D_W (15 Feb 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> OK, I'll bite. What is wrong with a gravel drive?



dusty - leaves a film of dust on your car and all your outside stuff if you're nearby. If you're close enough, some of the gravel ends up in your yard. 

If you live far from your neighbor - nothing. 

(the above items don't rise to the level of being trouble to me - we had gravel when I was a kid. It was more trouble for us than it was for the neighbors, but had the neighbors been nearby, we could've launched plenty of gravel into their yard by accident with the snowblower. "I think we can get it own a little lower". 

(loud clicking noise)

"I think we're throwing the top layer of the driveway, maybe we should get it a little higher".


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## Trainee neophyte (15 Feb 2022)

Pedronicus said:


> Our alarm goes off occasionally when someone walks on our gravel drive at dead of night!
> 
> View attachment 129485


I have an easy way to disable this type of alarm:


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## Inspector (15 Feb 2022)

Curious. Don't you guys have monitored alarm services? If the alarm goes off they ask through speakers and microphones in the house if it is a false alarm or malfunction and you'd have to give the correct response. If they don't get it they will call for police, fire, etc and if needed can shut it off from their end. Some systems tie it into monitors for seniors to check on their well being. If you have a camera system they will look at what is going on and call authorities or shut it off as appropriate. You get a discount on your insurance from some carriers if you have a monitored system. If you have a system that goes off too often the city can fine you.

Pete


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## Sporky McGuffin (15 Feb 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I have an easy way to disable this type of alarm:



That'd disable mine for all of fifteen seconds, assuming they didn't fight over it and then mug you for more. 

Security is more about layers than any one thing. We have CCTV and radar with on and off site recording and analytics as the soft outer layer. PIRs and security lights next, then gravel on the side paths, then high security doors and windows and locks, then the interference-activate strobe lights, then the dogs, then the shotguns. Most importantly we live somewhere with very low crime.

Also a battle unicorn, which is a rhino with a gun for a nose, and the gun fires killer bees with laser pistols. And mustard. Anyone who makes it past that has to do a really difficult sudoku while eating cheap cream of mushroom soup. While wearing mohair pants.


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## Geoff_S (15 Feb 2022)

In some cases it’s a condition for house insurance


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## Thingybob (15 Feb 2022)

DrPhill said:


> I lived next door to a chap once - conspicuously well off. He asked me if I would check his house if his alarm went off when he went away on holiday. I declined - no way I wanted to interrupt felons doing their job. He was really disappointed - "what is the point of me having an alarm if you are not going to check it?". Shrug.
> I use the 'look like a poor house with nothing to steal' strategy. Cheaper and easier. And really effective if you live next door to someone obviously well off.


Totaly agree an alarm says you have something worth pinching , Many years ago i was fitting a loft ladder at a very rich friend of my wifes house she came home one day with a massive plasma tv when i arrived next day at the side of the house was a large cardboard box with large print saying "plasma tv " and a couple of boxes saying "surround sound system and dvd player/recorder" I sugested she take boxes to tip so as not to advertise what sh had inside " Its ok we have state of the art alarm fitted and cctv cameras " she got robbed a month later they took the lot including much more


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## Stigmorgan (15 Feb 2022)

We had a neighbours house alarm go off early one morning so like a good neighbour I called the police, they weren't interested, after about 6 hours of constant alarm bells I called the council to report nuisance noise, they said to call the police.


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## Sandyn (15 Feb 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> That'd disable mine for all of fifteen seconds,


Just long enough for the tranquiliser to take effect


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## baldkev (16 Feb 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I have an easy way to disable this type of alarm:



I once worked on a property with 2 german shepherds. They were kept in a big cage in the courtyard. As soon as they heard or saw someone they would go mental, snarling, barking, throwing themselves at the cage to get out.... they were attack dogs.
Only the owner and their trainer could interact with them. If the owner died or couldnt get back to shut them away for some reason, the wife would have to call the trainer out to sort it because the dogs would attack her given the chance..... why would you???
Edit to say, only the trainer and owner could feed them, they wouldnt accept food from anyone else.


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## Robbo3 (16 Feb 2022)

Car alarms can be nearly as bad. Always have to check that it's not mine as I've never heard it & don't know what it sounds like.


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## Trainee neophyte (16 Feb 2022)

baldkev said:


> I once worked on a property with 2 german shepherds. They were kept in a big cage in the courtyard. As soon as they heard or saw someone they would go mental, snarling, barking, throwing themselves at the cage to get out.... they were attack dogs.
> Only the owner and their trainer could interact with them. If the owner died or couldnt get back to shut them away for some reason, the wife would have to call the trainer out to sort it because the dogs would attack her given the chance..... why would you???
> Edit to say, only the trainer and owner could feed them, they wouldnt accept food from anyone else.


It is astonishing what they have done to German Shepherds - we were given one which, after it bit everyone and everything (guess why we were given it?) we finally gave it back to the breeder, who enthusiastically took it back to breed even more insane, deranged dogs. It was one of the Crufts "designer dog" versions, rather than a proper scrapyard Alsatian.


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## Just4Fun (16 Feb 2022)

baldkev said:


> I once worked on a property with 2 german shepherds. They were kept in a big cage in the courtyard. As soon as they heard or saw someone they would go mental, snarling, barking, throwing themselves at the cage to get out.... they were attack dogs.


I once visited a home which had 70 huskies [yeah ... don't ask] kept in runs in the yard. As I approached they went mad and the noise was immense. A lady came out of the house & shouted "HEY" and all 70 of the dogs fell silent, which impressed me a great deal. These weren't guard dogs as such but they acted well in that capacity.


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## Jonm (16 Feb 2022)

How very annoying. I suggest you have a polite discussion with your neighbour. Perhaps he will give you his phone number so you can telephone him when it goes off so he can deal with it. You could wrap this up as being helpful as in ” I will look and see if there is evidence of a burglary”. You could suggest that he modifies it so that it sends him a telephone alert and he can then phone the police or turn it off from his phone.

A good alarm should either be monitored by an outside company or send the owner a text alarm signal and say which sensors have been triggered.

You could politely explain that an alarm which is always going off is no deterrent, could actually encourage a burglar as they know the alarm will be ignored, and just annoys his neighbours. Having a blazing row with him will probably be counter productive. It is good policy to do your best not to fall out with a neighbour.

If all fails you could contact your Local authority as it is a noise nuisance, explaining that you have spoken to your neighbour.

As to their effectiveness, burglars know that a lot of alarms send these messages so the police could be on their way, or someone to investigate. As someone else said, it is about layers of security, lights which come on, locked gates, secure doors and windows, cameras, alarm. If they want to get in they will but why not choose the easier house down the road.


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## SamG340 (16 Feb 2022)

My burglar alarms


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## Jonm (16 Feb 2022)

Pallet Fancier said:


> all a gravel driveway does is coat the pavement with loose stone, provide ammunition for delinquent kids and make every day of your life harder as you trudge through a loose surface, push a cart or carry a heavy weight, or spend your life trying to pick out the fallen leaves so they don't mulch down and turn your gravel into the kind of stoney soil hill farmers weep about.


I basically agree, you forgot to mention clearing snow or ice. I do have a small area of gravel drive, it is in the plastic honeycomb crates, easy to walk across, no problem pulling rubbish bin over it or clearing leaves etc. They are not cheap but are quick to install so overall cost effective.


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## Jonm (16 Feb 2022)

baldkev said:


> I once worked on a property with 2 german shepherds. They were kept in a big cage in the courtyard. As soon as they heard or saw someone they would go mental, snarling, barking, throwing themselves at the cage to get out.... they were attack dogs.
> Only the owner and their trainer could interact with them. If the owner died or couldnt get back to shut them away for some reason, the wife would have to call the trainer out to sort it because the dogs would attack her given the chance..... why would you???
> Edit to say, only the trainer and owner could feed them, they wouldnt accept food from anyone else.


“I once worked on a property with 2 german shepherds” maybe that was their standard patter to everyone so word got about and it acted as a deterrent.


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## Lons (16 Feb 2022)

I have a large gravel drive and never found it an issue in the 35 years I've lived here, the dog instantly hears anyone approaching, it's fairly easy to maintain e.g. no oil stained concrete, blocks or damaged tarmac as it just needs a rake over to keep it neat, leaves aren't difficult to shift using a garden vac/blower and neither is snow tbh as you soon get used to a method, we aren't exactly snowed in too many times in the UK anyway. We get a few weeds in the gravel but quickly dealt with using weedkiller or pulled out and the other types of driveway all of which we've had in previous houses aren't exactly weed proof either.

Alarm nuisance however is a very different issue.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Feb 2022)

baldkev said:


> I once worked on a property with 2 german shepherds. They were kept in a big cage in the courtyard. As soon as they heard or saw someone they would go mental, snarling, barking, throwing themselves at the cage to get out.... they were attack dogs.
> Only the owner and their trainer could interact with them. If the owner died or couldnt get back to shut them away for some reason, the wife would have to call the trainer out to sort it because the dogs would attack her given the chance..... why would you???
> Edit to say, only the trainer and owner could feed them, they wouldnt accept food from anyone else.


I saw the biggest long haired German Shepherd I've ever seen decide to have a go at my dog. He approached, hackles glowing in the sunshine, until he got to within fifteen feet of her. If this goes the way it looks to be going, I'm not getting involved, I thought. She was lying down and showed no reaction whatsoever. He stopped, obviously thought the better of it and backed off, tail between his legs. There was a hidden communication there somewhere. She was an eighteen stone English mastiff with a twenty eight inch neck.


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## stuart little (16 Feb 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I saw the biggest long haired German Shepherd I've ever seen decide to have a go at my dog. He approached, hackles glowing in the sunshine, until he got to within fifteen feet of her. If this goes the way it looks to be going, I'm not getting involved, I thought. She was lying down and showed no reaction whatsoever. He stopped, obviously thought the better of it and backed off, tail between his legs. There was a hidden communication there somewhere. She was an eighteen stone English mastiff with a twenty eight inch neck.


Was she named 'Fluffy' by any chance?


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## Just4Fun (16 Feb 2022)

Our drive is gravel but so is our street so putting down hard standing for our drive would achieve little or nothing. The drive is snow covered for several months each year and it makes no difference what is underneath the snow. The snowplough that clears our street does our drive for a small consideration and I just tidy it up with a snow shovel. I have no problem with a gravel drive.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Feb 2022)

stuart little said:


> Was she named 'Fluffy' by any chance?


Poppy.


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## Sporky McGuffin (16 Feb 2022)

Sandyn said:


> Just long enough for the tranquiliser to take effect



Thing is in every thread on every forum about home security someone's got a reason against every potential precaution.

Alarm - they'll be in and out before anyone cares
CCTV - they'll just wear hoodies
PIR lights - that just gives them better light to work by
Dog - they'll kill or drug them
Security doors and locks - they'll put a stolen JCB through the front of your house (no, really, someone said that to me)

Blah blah blah. There's a certain class of moaner who just wants to pick holes in everything, hence my comment that it's about having multiple layers of security, not relying on any one. Beyond that it's about making your house look like it's not worth the effort so the scrotes move on elsewhere. The vast majority are opportunists, and being lit up or barked at isn't much their thing.


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## Spectric (16 Feb 2022)

Inspector said:


> Curious. Don't you guys have monitored alarm services?


A lot of people don't want to pay the monthly fee's so take a cheaper option rather than a system professionally installed and monitored that would give a lot more peace of mind. Whats the monthly charge in Canada?


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Feb 2022)

My b.i.l. in NZ years ago fitted a burglar alarm. He said it was a crepe alarm, but of the six houses on their road his was the only one alarmed. As he said correctly most break ins are unplanned and opportunist so as long as your property looks more trouble than next door it works.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Feb 2022)

Spectric said:


> A lot of people don't want to pay the monthly fee's so take a cheaper option rather than a system professionally installed and monitored that would give a lot more peace of mind. Whats the monthly charge in Canada?


Or have found the monitoring unreliable so spend the money on other/better deterrents.


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## shed9 (16 Feb 2022)

I suspect the issue is more on how you interact with and your relationship with your neighbour than the alarm itself.


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## baldkev (16 Feb 2022)

Jonm said:


> “I once worked on a property with 2 german shepherds” maybe that was their standard patter to everyone so word got about and it acted as a deterrent.


They definitely looked like they would rip you apart. I wouldn't want them loose!

At the time my main problem with it was that those dogs would have no life. Just the cage and sometimes the courtyard.... no walks, no interaction with people or other dogs etc. And they apparently cost thousands per dog due to time training etc. Most 'pets' would calm down after a few minutes or getting used to seeing you, these ones kept chucking themselves into the cage sides with their teeth out


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## Spectric (16 Feb 2022)

Good call, if the monitoring is anything like some other services then no hope. A good example of this is a housing associations out of hours emergency help line I called the other day for someone who is in their eighties with no lighting, the response I got was they will handle the problem within 24 hours making the out of hours service obsolete.


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## Pedronicus (16 Feb 2022)

IMO the monitored alarm services are a waste of money. They only call the police who may be too busy/far away to attend.


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## Spectric (16 Feb 2022)

Pedronicus said:


> They only call the police who may be too busy/far away to attend.


Do the police actually attend burglaries anymore, just give you a report number and thats it so I can see a monitored service could be a waste of time, you would need to be in the house and then it would be aggravited burglary and then they may decide to attend.


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## hog&amp;bodge (16 Feb 2022)

I have two alarms on my house and no one can ignore them if they 
go off. but I have given my number to neighbours to contact me if they 
need to.
After a house few doors down was burgled while the alarm was going
off I decided to have bars put on windows and back door. 
This has become the bane of my life always telling people not to
lock the back gate at night while we are in. I hate the bars but it is the 
times we are living through.
It is inconsiderate of neighbour not to have a way to let you know your
alarm is going off not to mention the police will no come and see who
is robbing you.


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## Spectric (16 Feb 2022)

We used to have job migration where people moved to find work, up here people tried to move to escape areas that have a high risk of flooding and now a new trend could be to escape living in fear of burgulary, it does look like our police forces are not much more use than a blunt chiesel.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Feb 2022)

The irritating thing around here is that the plod are usually perfectly aware who the thieves are. There are traveller (who don't travel) and gypsy (who aren't gypsy) sites they won't venture on so just give you a crime number.


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## Richard_C (16 Feb 2022)

I used to live in a detatched house in a village near a motorway junction on the M56. Burglaries happened fairly regularly: steal car, off the motorway, burgle a few houses, go back onto motorway, whoosh. Mostly small scale stuff, cash, VCRs and so on.

If we went out for an evening I used to leave a light or two on, a radio upstairs because burglers can't easily peer in to see if there really is a person in the house, and a free with a Sunday paper Gene Pitney CD on repeat in the sitting room. Awful noise. 24 hours from Tinnitus and similar songs. Never burgled. I still have the CD and sometimes do the same thing even though we are in a much lower risk area.

I can confidently report a 100% correlation between not being burgled and having a Gene Pitney CD playing - based on a fairly small sample, so may not be statistically valid.

(but I do agree with the general observation that you can't prevent unless you choose to live in a fortress, you can only deter so they go elsewhere)


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## Inspector (16 Feb 2022)

Spectric said:


> A lot of people don't want to pay the monthly fee's so take a cheaper option rather than a system professionally installed and monitored that would give a lot more peace of mind. Whats the monthly charge in Canada?



I'm too far in the boonies so don't have one. The response time would be so long they could empty my shop. The neighbour is retired RCMP and he doesn't hesitate to jump in his truck and challenge any suspicious vehicles in the area. His dogs alert him.

As near as I can tell after paying for the installation the charges start at about $30Cad a month and up depending on the system.

If I lived in the city I would get a monitored system. A few weeks after a friend on the West Coast passed away last summer his house was burgled while his wife and nephew were asleep. The teen slept through it but the wife woke up to some sounds and went to look and found a guy in the house. He grabbed his bag of phones, laptops and their car keys. He tried to take the pickup truck and it wouldn't start so he moved to her SUV. She caught up to him there, tried to stop him, he belted her in the eye, knocking her to the ground, and took off. Cops came and filled out a report. Her daughter monitored the cell phones and when it was activated the next day, found the location and called the RCMP detective assigned to burglary. They busted him but not before he had already got rid of some of the stuff. He lived about 8 to 10 miles away and had to have been dropped off. An alarm would have woken her as he was trying to get in and likely stopped him. Now she has a good system, monitored, with cameras in several locations covering the house and shop. 

It isn't always about protecting your things. 

Pete


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## Spectric (16 Feb 2022)

Inspector said:


> A few weeks after a friend on the West Coast passed away last summer his house was burgled while his wife and nephew were asleep.


We seem to be given the impression Canada is a lovely place with great scenery and opportunities with very low rates of crime, is that just a ruse to get younger brits to emigrate!


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## Inspector (16 Feb 2022)

Spectric said:


> We seem to be given the impression Canada is a lovely place with great scenery and opportunities with very low rates of crime, is that just a ruse to get younger brits to emigrate!



Crime is every where in every country. Some areas are the never lock the door places and others should be bombed into oblivion. We are no different. 

Pete


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## Sandyn (16 Feb 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Blah blah blah. There's a certain class of moaner who just wants to pick holes in everything, hence my comment that it's about having multiple layers of security, not relying on any one. Beyond that it's about making your house look like it's not worth the effort so the scrotes move on elsewhere. The vast majority are opportunists, and being lit up or barked at isn't much their thing.


Lighten up for goodness sake, It's all in fun and we all do it.
One of your comments, for example:-" Is he still banging on about that lying, fad-diet-book-shilling quack? " You need people to pick holes in things. That's what forums are about.


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## Sporky McGuffin (16 Feb 2022)

Sandyn said:


> Lighten up for goodness sake,



I suppose my battle unicorn comment _was_ rather over serious.


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## Sandyn (16 Feb 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I suppose my battle unicorn comment _was_ rather over serious.


I would never actually do anything like that to a dog, they are the best companions. 
Years ago, a friend of mine has this dog kind of creature, like a huge set of teeth with a leg at each corner. He kept it in his transit as a deterrent to anyone who might think of staling his van. If you approached the van, the dog would go crazy and literally throw itself against the window to try to bite bits off you. At that time I had absolutely no fear of any animal having been brought up on a farm. I bet him I could get into the van. I simply approached the van, dog was going crazy. I opened the door slightly and eased myself inside the van. The dog just acted as if I wasn't there and continued barking at others outside the van, using me as a stepping stone.


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## Stevekane (16 Feb 2022)

I share your thoughts about alarms, car or house they just get ignored,,,but Im hoping that the burgler might be a bit jumpy and the noise might be enough to frighten them away. As to big vicious dogs, I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for one,,,say the pipper got out and mauled someone,,,what about a small dog, bright and alert and makes a lot of noise,,,wouldn't that be just as good and less dangerous?
Locks are a starnge one, when renewing our house insurance they ask if all windows have locks and doors 5 lever mortice locks,,which they dont,,last year I asked the guy what difference would it make, might be worth fitting them,,and to both his and my surprise it made no difference to the price at all!
Maybe would be different if we lived in a high crime area?
Steve.


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## Sporky McGuffin (16 Feb 2022)

My two dogs are big but total softies. They do both have good deep growls and barks though. I think that's a good combination.


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## Robbo3 (17 Feb 2022)

Best thief deterrent in our road was when I installed my IP cameras.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Feb 2022)

My neighbour had his van done and went to the plod with the clip of the the miscreant (who was known to them) grinning and sticking his middle finger up to the camera. They gave him a crime number as the picture "wasn't clear enough".


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## docw (17 Feb 2022)

Richard_C said:


> I used to live in a detatched house in a village near a motorway junction on the M56. Burglaries happened fairly regularly: steal car, off the motorway, burgle a few houses, go back onto motorway, whoosh. Mostly small scale stuff, cash, VCRs and so on.
> 
> If we went out for an evening I used to leave a light or two on, a radio upstairs because burglers can't easily peer in to see if there really is a person in the house, and a free with a Sunday paper Gene Pitney CD on repeat in the sitting room. Awful noise. 24 hours from Tinnitus and similar songs. Never burgled. I still have the CD and sometimes do the same thing even though we are in a much lower risk area.
> 
> ...


I am far from a career criminal, but if I were I would certainly steer clear of any address playing non stop Gene Pitney. Your small sample has just doubled in size!


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Feb 2022)

Gene Pitney? They are attempting to disperse crowds in NZ by playing loudly .............................. Barry Manilow and James Blunt.


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## dangles (17 Feb 2022)

baldkev said:


> At the time my main problem with it was that those dogs would have no life. Just the cage and sometimes the courtyard.... no walks, no interaction with people or other dogs etc. And they apparently cost thousands per dog due to time training etc. Most 'pets' would calm down after a few minutes or getting used to seeing you, these ones kept chucking themselves into the cage sides with their teeth out


These wouldn't make very good guard dogs if they wore dentures.


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## Fergie 307 (17 Feb 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I have an easy way to disable this type of alarm:


Fairly basic dog training to get your dog to only take food on command, and from people it knows. My Dobermans would sit in front of their bowls drooling, with a pained " come on dad what's the hold up here? " expression on their faces, but wouldn't touch it until they were told.


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## Spence1818 (17 Feb 2022)

Home alarms are there to provide jobs for the sales team and the fitters as well as drive the neighbours mad.


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## Fergie 307 (17 Feb 2022)

And upvote for the gravel drive, dogs go nuts as soon as anyone walks across it.
As for alarms, a well installed system should really have very few false alarms. Only time it's happened with mine was when they were doing some work on the sub station up the road and we had a few very brief power cuts, which set it off.
But I agree you will never prevent someone getting in if they really want to, the trick is just to make yours a less attractive proposition. I have beams and PIR detectors on the workshop so you can't get closer than about eight feet away before it goes off. All high enough not to be triggered by the dogs. When I first tried this used to get false activations from bats, we have a lot of bats! A friend made up a circuit board so that the interruption has to last a full second or so before it will trigger it, rather than being instant, never been a problem since.


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## Zedgeezer (17 Feb 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> It is astonishing what they have done to German Shepherds - we were given one which, after it bit everyone and everything (guess why we were given it?) we finally gave it back to the breeder, who enthusiastically took it back to breed even more insane, deranged dogs. It was one of the Crufts "designer dog" versions, rather than a proper scrapyard Alsatian.


I really don't want to start a whole German Shepherd thread, but I have to say I've owned, loved, bred and shown them for 40+ years. Properly bred they are a bombproof, loving, loyal breed to own if they are responsibly bred. The British Army had much respect for them in World War 1 when they were used by the German Army, and brought many back to the UK. These "Imports" founded the Alsatian we knew in the 1970's, but in the 1920's, politically they couldn't be called anything with the word German so they were renamed "The Alsace Lorraine Dog" (the area of France where they were believed to come from) which evolved through "The Alsace'aine" to "Alsatian". Due to the lack of cross breeding between the two nations, each nation chose the characteristics they most wanted. The Germans evolved a strongly curved spine with a low back end, the British went with a large chest, flatter back, and imposing presence, but both were (Genetically) the same breed. The problems with the British Alsatian came in the 1970's when a sudden popularity meant any two Alsatians were mated with no care for quality because profit was involved (let's call it the scrap yard dog). As breeders we have turned this around to return this breed to its rightful stature, but because of the current ability to easily move show dogs to shows anywhere within Europe (and there is obviously serious money in winning at Crufts), and the breed officially being called the German Shepherd Dog, German judges, judging German Shepherd Dogs are never going to make an English Alsatian best of breed over a Germanic GSD. There are a few UK breeders still trying to breed what we believe to be the true UK GSD / Alsatian but most are swayed by selling puppies which are bred from German Crufts show winners because that is where the money is. When we bought our last GSD puppy we had to make a lot of phone calls to breeders (and we knew the questions to ask) before one pointed us to a possible breeder in Northumberland, 300 miles from us. We made the journey to check the litter out, only to find the puppies were Great Grand Children of a dog we had bred 15 years earlier (my favourite GSD ever). At that point it became a no brainer.
Final point: GSD's / Alsatians are an excellent dog to own if you want a dog that is intelligent, family loving, naturally protecting of that environment, and alert at all times, the rest of the nasty traits are trained in by ignorant trainers / owners who don't care about the breed, they are just after money.


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## Trainee neophyte (18 Feb 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Fairly basic dog training to get your dog to only take food on command, and from people it knows. My Dobermans would sit in front of their bowls drooling, with a pained " come on dad what's the hold up here? " expression on their faces, but wouldn't touch it until they were told.


I do the same (can't have 50kg of excited dog leaping around the house at feeding time - things get broken). However, anyone who says that they can train a dog not to take food from a stranger has never owned a lurcher. 

There is a marked difference between the mentality of german breeds and other dogs - that standing-to-attention, whatever the boss says, slave plantation approach. I am used to dogs with a more individual way of thinking. We always had lurchers and longdogs growing up, and they are really dim - greyhounds can run fast in in a circle, but brains are heavy, so no need to carry dead weight. Currently I have the local equivalent of an anatolian sheepdog, and they don't work _for_ the owner - they work _with_ you. Having said that, he is one of the very few dogs I have owned with an ability to recall - handy because he really does like to play with traffic - his favourite thing in all the world is to bounce motorbikes, because it is such fun.


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## Fergie 307 (18 Feb 2022)

My mum and dad had a number of rescue greyhounds over the yesrs, very affectionate but definitely pooches of very little brain.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Feb 2022)

We all have favourites. If I had land I'd have a Dobermann, an English mastiff and a Jack Russell - if two didn't get you the other one would. I have the staffie now, but my all time favourite has to be a boxer - they're madder than a box of frogs. About the only dog I just do not like is a German shepherd.


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## Pallet Fancier (19 Feb 2022)

Thingybob said:


> Totaly agree an alarm says you have something worth pinching , Many years ago i was fitting a loft ladder at a very rich friend of my wifes house she came home one day with a massive plasma tv when i arrived next day at the side of the house was a large cardboard box with large print saying "plasma tv " and a couple of boxes saying "surround sound system and dvd player/recorder" I sugested she take boxes to tip so as not to advertise what sh had inside " Its ok we have state of the art alarm fitted and cctv cameras " she got robbed a month later they took the lot including much more



I would suggest this was Darwinism, except for the fact that she had all that money in the first place!


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## Pallet Fancier (19 Feb 2022)

shed9 said:


> I suspect the issue is more on how you interact with and your relationship with your neighbour than the alarm itself.


I suspect it's not, as he's a really nice guy who I get along with and we help each other out all the time. But his wife is an aristocratic puppy and a brick wall to all reasonable requests. But thanks, anyway


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## Pallet Fancier (19 Feb 2022)

Robbo3 said:


> Best thief deterrent in our road was when I installed my IP cameras.



My opposite neighbour has done that, and I'm thinking about it. Between us, we can probably secure the whole road!


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## Pallet Fancier (19 Feb 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> My neighbour had his van done and went to the plod with the clip of the the miscreant (who was known to them) grinning and sticking his middle finger up to the camera. They gave him a crime number as the picture "wasn't clear enough".


Given what I've heard some plods say about the CPS, perhaps they knew that the case would never be taken to court. Gone are the days when the senior Inspector was responsible for deciding which cases to put forward. Apparently the CPS (who are comprised of individuals who are overworked and under-appreciated, it must be said) are getting more and more reluctant to prosecute. It may, of course, have something to do with the fact their backlog of cases looks like a queue at a petrol station during a fuel crisis.


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