# Decline in Valued Contributors???



## deema (7 Jan 2023)

In recent years I have noticed a distinct decline in the ‘old lags’ that made this forum the rich and valuable source of information. I miss the contributions of people like Steve Maskery and AndyT and many others who were always very prolific. There are a number of others who also seem to have dropped out. I then took a gander at an alternative wood working forum, and was greatly surprised to find a gaggle of people who I was missing from this forum!

The other thing I’ve noticed is that the number of threads on any form of wood working or machine enhancement seems to have also declined to a mere trickle. It’s always good to have lively debates about off topic subjects, but the heart and sole of any forum is the depth, quality and quantity of threads related to the subject the forum was setup to serve.

Id like to suggest something is or was wrong, and to ensure the long life, frequent reoccurring visits and ensuring the forum is an enclave of knowledge something needs to be addressed. I don’t know why the ‘old lags’ left, but for such a migration to have occurred has a cause and a symptom.


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## Argus (7 Jan 2023)

As an 'Old Lag' of some 20 years, I think that you have noticed the obvious.

When this site started, it was a loose affiliation of what it said on the tin..... woodworkers. In the main they were of the 'hand-tools' variety, not exclusively, but all woodworkers, nonetheless.

It has developed a more - how can I put this politely - a more 'diverse' approach to a variety of often conflicting topics and views that can have little in common with hacking bits of old trees about for fun.

Shame, but that's how it is.


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## artie (7 Jan 2023)

Everything changes/evolves. sometimes better sometimes worse.

Sometimes worse then better again, sometimes not.

Why not set the example with some engaging posts?


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## Spectric (7 Jan 2023)

Everything goes round in circles and up and down like a roller coaster, unfortunately nothing ever stays the same and times change. I used to visit sites on software, GPS / cartography, microcontrollers and the like but they have all suffered a huge decline, once you could post a problem and you would have answers in hours. Why is the question and I believe two main reasons, the people with a vested interest have aged and moved on but the young have not taken up such interest, just not as hands on as previous generations. Take this further and look around any town and you no longer see the model shops that many of us would frequent which got us interested in making, kids today don't attemp to fix anything and live in a buy everything culture and spend too much of their time on unsocial media and then this is all reflected in the UKs decline in engineering and manufacturing. This then I believe leads on to all the mental problems they experience because they don't have the escape, it was very rewarding once you stood back and looked at something you had made and painted. So sites like the UKW are not exempt, it is like a bucket that is probably empying faster than being filled but that is no reason to give up, we do have some great people with years of experience, Peter Sefton & Peter Millard are two so perhaps the old lags that are no more just ran out of steam and this forum is still the rich and valuable source of information it always was, just with a little more diversity.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Jan 2023)

A least one other forum has problems getting wips, in depth projects etc. as well, it's not just this one.


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## thetyreman (7 Jan 2023)

If you want to get to the bottom of it, it's because of personal problems between members, often grudges and hangups, very little to do with real practical woodworking, it's not just this forum, there are some I used to visit that are so inactive that you'll be lucky if there's a single new post once every three months, bascially facebook killed it off, I see it as a virus on humanity that's draining away everybody's souls and free-time.


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## Doug71 (7 Jan 2023)

Forums like this are not as popular as they once were, times have changed and people show off their work on Instagram etc.

I think this place isn't doing too bad considering, it is hard keeping interested when you have been around for a while as the same things do come up again and again but there is the odd bit of good stuff among it.

I do enjoy following a wip no matter what it is. I have done a couple in the past but it does take time so I tend to just post a couple of photos in the "What I made today" thread. Next time I'm making something interesting I will try to put the effort in.


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## BucksDad (7 Jan 2023)

Ah yes Spectric, it's the young people's fault  Forums are unfortunately now a little bit of a relic from the 1990s /2000s of the web. I love forums having grown up with them but there are now so many more options for people to consider to find outlets online for their interests.

There's probably no need to re-hash why the long time contributors of this forum moved elsewhere, but one thing different between forums and other, types of interest communities on the web is that forums very much became a little community in and of itself and the "Off Topic" section was just as busy (as is the case here and the other place).

One thing I see with newer types of online community is that they have a lot more active moderation to stay on-topic or an inbuilt design which doesn't easily allow that. I personally wish the mods would step in more and stop the two notorious posters on this forum from interjecting the same arguments and points ad-infinitum into almost every thread (case in point, one of them suggested this week that a poster should use pen & paper to edit some 3D CNC models which shows they clearly hadn't read the thread properly and just wanted to make their point).

I don't participate in just this forum but read/engage in a variety of online woodworking communities

1. Reddit (r/woodworking). Projects posted everyday, very strict posting / moderation rules. There are *no* off topic conversations

2. Instagram - why go to the effort of a WIP on a forum when people who are interested can just follow along with photos / stories you can do from your phone ad-hoc and quickly. You can follow along with plenty of talented makers.

3. Facebook groups

These are some of my favourites - because 99.5% of people are using their real name, the quality of the conversation is again higher and they are much more active than forums. FB groups are typically strictly moderated by admins and there are plenty of FB groups which are way more active than here.

Unplugged woodworkers - 35k members. Strictly handtool woodwork posts/discussion only
Woodworking UK - 40K members. Mixture of power / handtool woodworking.
Dovetails & OSB - 1.6k members. This group grew out of Matt Estlea's following. Trends younger which makes sense because of Matt. Plenty of enthusiastic handtool woodwork going on.

All of these groups are delightfully on topic and 99% positive. Part of this is the design of FB groups - long running threads aren't really a thing because you can't keep track of older posts. The search sucks which is the downside meaning it's only good for immediacy.

4. YouTube / YouTube Channel communities

There are plenty of youtube channels which have their own little communities or YTbers who have successfully built their patreon / private member communities. Peter Millard's members platform is a great little community with Peter's behind-the-scenes updates and a small but active forum with on-topic discussion and helpful ideas / replies from everyone. A paywall is a great way to get rid of the trolls 

So there are more places than ever to find woodworking going on, forums are just sadly in decline. Now I must go and update my workshop build WIP soon!


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## MikeK (7 Jan 2023)

I've written this before, and will repeat it again. The Internet is large enough for many workshop forums, so there shouldn't be a turf war between which site is better, larger, or more active. If Site A doesn't meet the needs, try Site B, C, or D...or use all of them at the same time as I do.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect a single site to have all of the expertise or knowledge base to suit everyone. Some sites are less inviting to beginners asking basic questions, or less likely to be open to topics that stray from the local region, but that doesn't imply they are less important or interesting.

For anyone who is interested, we do have a hidden forum called "Pre-Articles" that is available for members to build multi-post project threads without external interruption. This allows the member to create a string of consecutive posts for a project. I used this when I created my MFT-style workbench thread and it is currently being used by another member on what might be the longest duration project thread yet.

Access to the forum is by request only and limited to the duration of the build project. At the completion of the project thread, when the member is satisfied with the content and formatting, the thread will be moved to the appropriate forum for all to see and admire. Access to the Pre-Articles forum will be removed until the member is ready for the next project thread.


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2023)

Have a look at the figures at bottom of the front page. Currently 1,078 people on line . Makes this the biggest and busiest WW site of all?


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## MikeK (7 Jan 2023)

Jacob said:


> Have a look at the figures at bottom of the front page. Currently 1,078 people on line . Makes this the biggest and busiest WW site of all?


Not quite. The numbers are a sliding snapshot of who was active on the site in the previous 60 minutes. If a member visits for one second and then moves on to other things, the forum's persistence setting will keep the member in the list for an hour after the last visit before removing it. As of now, about 625 of those visitors were robots who peeked and then left.


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## Phill05 (7 Jan 2023)

Jacob said:


> Have a look at the figures at bottom of the front page. Currently 1,078 people on line . Makes this the biggest and busiest WW site of all?


It might show 1k+ but how many are interacting and how many don't want to get into a involved in an argument.


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## Ttrees (7 Jan 2023)

I was thinking a lot of the activity was by bots, 
Why are they here I wonder, is it some algorithmic program to entice newcomers.
It was fairly apparent there were a huge upsurge in newcomers to the craft when the forum got updated, so I guess so.

Must have a look to see if that pre articles forum is more poster friendly,
(in regards to a permanent edit function) 
I often find myself wanting to add or update info, as I'm terrible at explaining things
and often revisiting tedious things, making my threads possibly better read in reverse,
so it would be nice to be able to give some warning of tack changing beforehand.

That's the biggest niggle for me, so it is....
and one could speculate a great deal about why this function is disabled, given some of the crew who left, namely the magazine era content creators wasn't happy regarding their intellectual property not being under their control, and possibly subject to being altered or used without their permission.
I can see why they left TBH.

Not sure what value my postings have, I reckon my shed is a bit dark to be making decent posts,
so I ain't too worried about that, besides posting tutes or juicy threads is often just a lazy mans youtube video.


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## deema (7 Jan 2023)

For me, life is about pushing boundaries and experiences. I never think about how well I’m doing or sit back complacently to admire what I’ve done; for me, it’s all about considering the errors I’ve made and determining how I can do it better next time. Life is about, I believe learning from experience, every day is a school day. If I think my world is just about perfect, the world moves on and I would find myself a dinosaur, left behind, neglected and no longer relevant.

I take the point the world has moved, but like customers (which we the contributors are) for any business, it takes a lot of time to both attract and retain new customers. If a business starts to loose its long term customers surely any conscientious business looks at Itself to determine what it needs to change and improve both to try attract back its long term customers as well as retain the customers it has?


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2023)

Phill05 said:


> It might show 1k+ but how many are interacting and how many don't want to get into a involved in an argument.


It's still a rough measure in relation to the same count on other forums.


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2023)

Ttrees said:


> I was thinking a lot of the activity was by bots,
> Why are they here I wonder, is it some algorithmic program to entice newcomers.
> It was fairly apparent there were a huge upsurge in newcomers to the craft when the forum got updated, so I guess so.
> 
> ...


Permanent edit is easily misused - it'd be too easy to go back some way and write all sorts of garbage, especially if there was an argument on the go. Very tempting! 
One thing you can change is any image from an external URL of your own, where you edit to have different image under the same URL.
Mike's hidden forum called "Pre-Articles" sounds a good idea - long threads can get a bit disjointed. I might have a go; "how to sharpen everything with one combination oil stone" perhaps.


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## Sgian Dubh (7 Jan 2023)

I think it's been almost nineteen years since I started contributing here. Apart from this forum I only really visit a couple of other woodworking forums, and rarely post at either. I used to respond to questions here more frequently than I do now, although I don't think I could ever have been described as a particularly prolific contributor. As a relatively long term member/user (I believe) I've observed multiple contributors come and go. Some post prolifically for a while; a few weeks, months, or a year or two, then disappear completely, or almost completely. Maybe they just get tired and feel underappreciated, or just burn themselves out posting frantically trying to be everybody's problem solver.

It's true that the same old questions or topics keep rolling around as new users join mostly seeking answers to those same old questions. A good example is anything to do with sharpening, a topic I just can't be bothered to get involved with because it almost always becomes fractious and divisive. Maybe the repetition or recycling of old topics drives some longer term users away through the onset of boredom, but that's just speculation on my part.

So, I guess I'd possibly be best described as an old stager that is now rather selective about the threads I'm either willing or interested in enough to participate, and even when I do get involved I generally prefer to say my piece, maybe respond once or twice again if needed, and duck out altogether once the debate gets long, especially if it becomes fractious. I do, incidentally, really enjoy observing from afar long, bitter, fractious and contentious threads just to observe the sparks fly and to see how long the mods will let it all go before they slam down the shutters.

So, in conclusion, I've managed, so far, to not burn out, and I've probably achieved this through posting relatively sparingly. Slainte.


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## Ttrees (7 Jan 2023)

!Who'd bother editing arguments though.
It would likely make sense if the OP could retain this ability for real reasons.

Doesn't seem like that's asking for much, in regards moderation or whatever.
ps, Happy new year to ya.

Tom


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## dzj (7 Jan 2023)

At the risk of sounding like that patent office fella from the early 1900s who suggested that everything worthwhile
was already invented, I think that a forum that's been around as long as this one has, has touched upon quite a few
WW related topics. Starting a thread without being repetitious is getting harder.
I personally enjoy that 'show and tell' thread, the Jokes and as Doug has suggested any WiP.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Jan 2023)

Surely the sensible way to solve the editing problem is to allow additions/corrections to old posts (and show that they are) but not deletions.
I appreciate of course that existing software won't handle that.


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## doctor Bob (7 Jan 2023)

I find it frustrating that many many threads are hijacked by individuals, purely for their personal entertainment, or if they feel in a mischievous mood they start a back door political thread.

I look at the forum regularly and post reasonably often at present, however I went through a 9 month spell last year of being totally inactive due to the above paragraph.

I blame the moderators for being feeble (lacking balls whatever you want to call it) and not willing to stop it, been like it for years, they have had hundreds of opportunities to knock it on the head but have always stuck their heads in the sand as an easier option.

Political threads often run until it gets out of hand, why not just delete them immediately. Whatever the title of the thread, if the underlying theme of the thread is socialism then it's political.

The majority of posters mentioned who have left have done so because they have been bullied, vilified and abused on threads which should have been shut down way earlier.


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## Peter Sefton (7 Jan 2023)

We have lost some very talented woodworkers over the years, I think some had run-ins with certain members (member) so just gave up posting. Others are commercial makers so have limited time with all the demands that life brings and this is a busman's holiday, if they receive abuse for sharing their experience-well why bother. 

Naturally the same topics crop up over the years so longer standing members will have posted their thoughts many times. We also now have Facebook, YouTube, Insta and TickTok pulling us in other directions.

I still think this is the best forum but youngsters will probably be using social media.

Cheers

Peter


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## Dibs-h (7 Jan 2023)

What happened to the the likes of BradNaylor? Anyone know?


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## deema (7 Jan 2023)

To be successful in anything you need to know where you’re going, have an idea of what it is you’re striving to achieve. More importantly you need to know what you’re not and avoid getting sidetracked from your stated goal. From my ‘armchair’ perspective there are two issues that seem to create problems, and are probably closely interlinked. Firstly, if you look at the board index, the second highest category for threads isn’t anything about making stuff, it’s Off Topic Chat with 19K threads. This is usually the destination where frustrations surface, and understandable people get disenfranchised; a theme which has come up in some of the replies and which I categorise as the second issue. I have been guilty of off topic chat, but on reflection, it would seem that this section doesn’t serve the purpose of the forum. Having said that I am assuming that the objective is to create a community of creative people as opposed to driving just any traffic through the web site to attract advertisers by high numbers


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2023)

Dibs-h said:


> What happened to the the likes of BradNaylor? Anyone know?


He's alive and well, retired from successful woodworking career and now working at a golf course, golf being his favourite pastime, and posting about it enthusiastically on FB. Still an outspoken lefty!
PS plays mouth organ in a rock n roll band too. Seems to have life well sorted!


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## Dibs-h (7 Jan 2023)

Jacob said:


> He's alive and well, retired from successful woodworking career and now working at a golf course, golf being his favourite pastime, and posting about it enthusiastically on FB. Still a lefty.


Cheers for posting the info Jacob. Glad to hear he's still with us.


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## mikej460 (7 Jan 2023)

Compared to the other place, I prefer this forum, mostly because it is more user friendly - easier to post pictures and to find useful posts. I do tire of the arguments, especially the oft posted 'my way is better than your way' nonsense and I've now stopped reading most off topic posts as they have nothing to do with woodworking and are often just belligerent rants. I do like the joke thread though  

On the subject of project posts, rather than wait until the project is completed why can't we have the ability to switch off replies/responses until invited? This way we get to enjoy a project's progress without interference but also invite advice if needed?


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## AJB Temple (7 Jan 2023)

I stopped initiating threads and WIPs on this forum when it became too belligerent around the time ownership changed. So now I pop in occasionally and sometimes comment. But never initiate. There used to be a lot of advice I found helpful, but many of the most helpful people moved elsewhere, which was a shame. The other place is indeed hopeless for posting photos etc quickly, but tends to have several people who are rather skilled. Personally I can't see a problem with having several forums and dipping in as we wish. 

In practice I tend to regard forums as a sort of woodworking club where people "know" each other and are civil. This one was diluted (sadly) with a lot of political stuff which put me off. I suspect the more successful forums become, the more conflict becomes inevitable. Monetising forums (as here) gradually destroys their purpose. I detest Facebook and will not use it. Since Meta owns Instagram too now, I wont post there either as the respect for personal privacy is nil.


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2023)

AJB Temple said:


> ....it became too belligerent around the time ownership changed.


That's the answer to the question of where they went. AFAIR I personally wasn't posting at the time so it was nothing to do with me!


AJB Temple said:


> ..... This one was diluted (sadly) with a lot of political stuff which put me off. I suspect the more successful forums become, the more conflict becomes inevitable.


Mods sensibly put the political stuff in an optional sub forum. You can completely ignore it if you choose. It's not that contentious - people disagree but without going over the top. More grown up discussion than anything. People get angrier in sharpening threads!


AJB Temple said:


> Monetising forums (as here) gradually destroys their purpose.


But it's optional. Most of us don't pay a penny. I'm not too bothered if the organisers can make a bit of cash - there are expenses and a lot of voluntary time given up. I doubt it's a get rich quick scheme.


AJB Temple said:


> I detest Facebook and will not use it. Since Meta owns Instagram too now, I wont post there either as the respect for personal privacy is nil.


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## Spectric (7 Jan 2023)

How about a new approach in 2023, can we just accept that everyone is different and is entittled to their views and just be nice to each other, if you think a topic is veering off course and don't like it then report it so it can be discussed amongst the moderators or if a member is causing grief then don't take the bait and instead just let the moderators know, but at the end of the day no one can ever keep everybody happy.


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## deema (7 Jan 2023)

I have no idea how this site is ‘managed’ and by that I mean how any rules are formulated, decisions made on what direction to take it in. What I would like to see, which may be ongoing but very subtle and I’ve missed it is proactive listening / seeking out the views of the members on what they like and don’t like about the forum and making changes appropriately.


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2023)

deema said:


> I have no idea how this site is ‘managed’ and by that I mean how any rules are formulated, decisions made on what direction to take it in. What I would like to see, which may be ongoing but very subtle and I’ve missed it is proactive listening / seeking out the views of the members on what they like and don’t like about the forum and making changes appropriately.


Well they seem to like this thread. What about having more threads complaining about the site instead of all that woodwork stuff?
Could bring our absent friends back, they were all into complaining before they went.


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## baldkev (7 Jan 2023)

When i was much younger i was on a car forum, it basically became a place for a nightly argument with the same people, so i stopped logging on.
I often find the recurring arguments about the same old stuff quite annoying. You can say your bit and move on, let the o.p or whoever is reading, make their own decisions..... no point keep going over old ground trying to bludgeon the opposition to death with replies.

As my mum says, "if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything " 

Ive learnt a lot being on here and there are some very knowledgeable people around, but as always, its a matter of self control ( knowing when you dont need to post )

 mind you, i didnt need to post this


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## Sideways (Sunday at 00:10)

doctor Bob said:


> I find it frustrating that many many threads are hijacked by individuals, purely for their personal entertainment, or if they feel in a mischievous mood they start a back door political thread.
> 
> I look at the forum regularly and post reasonably often at present, however I went through a 9 month spell last year of being totally inactive due to the above paragraph.
> 
> ...


A request to you and to all others on this point. If you see this happening - especially if you are the originator of the thread and object to people trying to drag it off topic - please use the tools to report the post and just put a note saying why.
There's an area specific to moderators where reports of this nature are flagged up and it gets someone's attention usually within 24 hrs. One or all of the mods in consultation may not agree with you, but a report never goes unconsidered.
I for one would have no qualms in killing off a thread drift if the original poster requested this and there have been controversial threads started in Off Topic in recent months that have been dealt with within hours (we have to be online and notice them) and wouldn't have been noticed by most members..

It is helpful to receive this feedback. Your mods don't want to be policemen and over control the debate. We're adults and it's not a nanny state. In the same spirit we have to use judgement about when banter becomes more personal. Please do use the "report" button at the bottom of a post if you have a genuine issue with it.

Thanks !


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## Sideways (Sunday at 00:33)

Another point arising.
Jacob is right that persistent editing rights could become a way to rewrite history so to speak so this isn't offered.
But - we all appreciate these substantial project and work in progress threads. I've written a few of my own and know that they take effort and also become a useful reference for information.

If you have a thread like that, don't be reluctant to post an update to your thread and report it yourself with a request that the mods move your new text onto the end of one of your ealier posts. Tell us what post number you'd like it added to.
We have editing rights that enable posts to be combined like this and have done it before for worthwhile threads. It helps readability and some threads are well worth keeping alive as they become a shared reference.


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## Blister (Sunday at 04:34)

I was an " Old Lag " and prolific poster some 10+ years ago in the woodturning section , Running monthly competitions with awards for the winners , Had 2 professional turners judging , Driven out by forum trolls who made all sorts of accusations about me being a dealer and shouldent be allowed , I was asked to be a moderator , Had the status when I left home for night work and by the time I arrived home the mod status was gone and also the thread welcoming me , Never managede to find out why , Some of the culprits are still here now , Have a great new year guys


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## sawtooth-9 (Sunday at 05:30)

I joined this site because I saw it as a forum where people exchanged their experience and helped others along the way.
I always loved others restoring older machines - not just to save a few quid, but because the older gear was "real"
Also, was always interested in some of the more inventive projects.
In my view, there are just too many off topic posts - these should be in the facebook bin !
Most projects I now do, I don't bother to post as there is little response ( probably means little interest ).
This site has changed since I joined - and not for the better.
If this was a real business, I would review my strategy.


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## Seascaper (Sunday at 05:43)

deema said:


> In recent years I have noticed a distinct decline in the ‘old lags’ that made this forum the rich and valuable source of information. I miss the contributions of people like Steve Maskery and AndyT and many others who were always very prolific. There are a number of others who also seem to have dropped out. I then took a gander at an alternative wood working forum, and was greatly surprised to find a gaggle of people who I was missing from this forum!
> 
> The other thing I’ve noticed is that the number of threads on any form of wood working or machine enhancement seems to have also declined to a mere trickle. It’s always good to have lively debates about off topic subjects, but the heart and sole of any forum is the depth, quality and quantity of threads related to the subject the forum was setup to serve.
> 
> Id like to suggest something is or was wrong, and to ensure the long life, frequent reoccurring visits and ensuring the forum is an enclave of knowledge something needs to be addressed. I don’t know why the ‘old lags’ left, but for such a migration to have occurred has a cause and a symptom.


Hello,
I would like to suggest that the reason for this is the increase in very annoying pop up adverts which are getting worse and bad enough to drive anyone away. Just writing this I have had to shut down three video ads and like a lot of others I will be looking for somewhere else without advertising swamping the site,
Regards


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## Blackswanwood (Sunday at 05:56)

Seascaper said:


> Hello,
> I would like to suggest that the reason for this is the increase in very annoying pop up adverts which are getting worse and bad enough to drive anyone away. Just writing this I have had to shut down three video ads and like a lot of others I will be looking for somewhere else without advertising swamping the site,
> Regards


It’s within your gift to stop adverts appearing. Click on your avatar, then click on preferences and tick the box to disable adverts.


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## Henniep (Sunday at 05:59)

MikeK said:


> I've written this before, and will repeat it again. The Internet is large enough for many workshop forums, so there shouldn't be a turf war between which site is better, larger, or more active. If Site A doesn't meet the needs, try Site B, C, or D...or use all of them at the same time as I do.
> 
> I don't think it is reasonable to expect a single site to have all of the expertise or knowledge base to suit everyone. Some sites are less inviting to beginners asking basic questions, or less likely to be open to topics that stray from the local region, but that doesn't imply they are less important or interesting.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, I agree and support wholeheartedly your opening two paragraghs. As a relatively 'newbie' I think this forum is very informative and well balances. My hat off to the administrators and contributors alike.


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## Fergie 307 (Sunday at 06:52)

I stumbled upon this forum a few years ago, looking for help with a specific woodworking problem. I cant even recall what it was now. I have remained as, although woodworking is not my main interest, i find the breadth of subjects discussed is interesting. I have gained some great information and tips, and hopefully made the occasional helpful post myself. Yes some of the political rants can be irritating, but you dont have to participate. Lets face it we all know where something will go once certain people get involved, and can choose to ingnore it if we wish. Overall i think its pretty good. I have dipped into some others from time to time, but have remained here because I find it more entertaining.


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## Phil Pascoe (Sunday at 06:59)

Sideways said:


> If you have a thread like that, don't be reluctant to post an update to your thread and report it yourself with a request that the mods move your new text onto the end of one of your earlier posts. Tell us what post number you'd like it added to.
> We have editing rights that enable posts to be combined like this and have done it before for worthwhile threads. It helps readability and some threads are well worth keeping alive as they become a shared reference.


That's all very well, but why in principle should you have to ask to edit your own posts like a naughty schoolboy?
I had a thread which actually relied on additions to the o.p. over a long time. I no longer bother with it.


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## Phil Pascoe (Sunday at 07:02)

Fergie 307 said:


> I stumbled upon this forum a few years ago, looking for help with a specific woodworking problem. I cant even recall what it was now. I have remained as, although woodworking is not my main interest, i find the breadth of subjects discussed is interesting. I have gained some great information and tips,


I have found in the past that sometimes I've learned or gained more from the asides and off tack comments than I have from the body of the thread.


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## Blackswanwood (Sunday at 07:45)

Phil Pascoe said:


> That's all very well, but why in principle should you have to ask to edit your own posts like a naughty schoolboy?
> I had a thread which actually relied on additions to the o.p. over a long time. I no longer bother with it.


As I recall it the ability to go back and edit was restricted after a new member posted prolifically, fell out with everyone and stormed off in a huff after going back and deleting the text and pictures in all his posts rendering all the discussions useless.

It may not be something most members would do but there are some pineapples out there.

When I did my workshop build all it took was a pm to @MikeK to update the title and keep it relevant. I didn’t feel like a naughty schoolboy but perhaps schools are different down in darkest Cornwall. 

I agree that there is often good stuff when the discussion widens. I also agree that we can all choose to ignore stuff we don’t like. Unfortunately though (and I feel this forum suffers from it more than others) when it gets into “I’m right and you’re wrong tennis match” etc threads become difficult to follow.


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## Phil Pascoe (Sunday at 08:11)

There is an example on one woodworking forum where a member (who is a actually a mod on yet another forum) has gone back over years of posts and deleted all his posts, so making the thread nonsensical - this shows why deletions shouldn't be allowed, but there's no real need to stop alterations and additions so long as they are marked as such. It would be near impossible to police, of course, if the software didn't handle it.


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## Doug B (Sunday at 08:24)

Spectric said:


> How about a new approach in 2023, can we just accept that everyone is different and is entittled to their views and just be nice to each other,


Steady Roy they crucified a bloke for preaching that sort of wisdom


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## deema (Sunday at 08:32)

Personally, I feel that you should be able to edit / delete anything you have created. There can be a multitude of reasons, but, in the end if you can’t you have in effect given any content you’ve created to the site. For example I recall a chap you used to post about his superb intarsia work that he created. Unfortunately, his designs started to be copied and detract from his work, which was commissions. He deleted all his photos of the intarsia which is understandable. Equally, in the heat of the moment people say things they later regret or may impact their life if it continues to be online. These are extremes, but highlight why having control of your online presence is important.


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## deema (Sunday at 09:03)

I am for free speech, and would not want anything that prohibits the ability to express an opinion. That’s however very different to making pointed or personally comments against individuals and would welcome this behaviour to be moderated.


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## Ttrees (Sunday at 09:10)

Blackswanwood said:


> As I recall it the ability to go back and edit was restricted after a new member posted prolifically, fell out with everyone and stormed off in a huff after going back and deleting the text and pictures in all his posts rendering all the discussions useless.
> 
> It may not be something most members would do but there are some pineapples out there.
> 
> ...


Yes I recall it aswell, it was _supposedly_ a newcomer to the forum, and had some severe chips of his plane irons.
No great wealth of information was either given, nor lost, and no-one was upset about it.
Yet an example was made quite briskly regarding the "whole fiasco"
It's all a bit fishy to say the least.

Still though, we managed to hold onto the edit function for the projects section...
which didn't last long.
IIRC there was some noise goin on of contributes privileges regarding this edit function,
(about the only thing I was concerned about)

but ya'll know it was early days of the overlords, and perhaps whomever was calling the shots
perhaps seen some shiny Lie-Nielsen goodies and thought they hit the goldmine,
when infact they had absolutely no idea we were all a bunch of tight fisted Victor Meldrew's who's
no stranger to old sandpaper


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## Dolau (Sunday at 09:42)

As a newbie to the site and someone coming back to woodworking in retirement I am finding this site very useful and informative but as has been said elsewhere I also find the Timelapse videos on Facebook very good but if you want help or information this is the place I come


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## Jacob (Sunday at 10:28)

Phil Pascoe said:


> That's all very well, but why in principle should you have to ask to edit your own posts like a naughty schoolboy?
> I had a thread which actually relied on additions to the o.p. over a long time. I no longer bother with it.


I suppose it's like writing a letter - you don't expect to have it returned so that you can re-write it but you can always send another one with corrections, and if necessary, apologies for misunderstandings!


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## Geoff_S (Sunday at 15:35)

Well, I've just asked a question recently and got very helpful answers.

Just saying


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## Sideways (Sunday at 16:45)

deema said:


> Personally, I feel that you should be able to edit / delete anything you have created. There can be a multitude of reasons, but, in the end if you can’t you have in effect given any content you’ve created to the site. For example I recall a chap you used to post about his superb intarsia work that he created. Unfortunately, his designs started to be copied and detract from his work, which was commissions. He deleted all his photos of the intarsia which is understandable. Equally, in the heat of the moment people say things they later regret or may impact their life if it continues to be online. These are extremes, but highlight why having control of your online presence is important.


A couple of rather frank observations on these points - as a forum member by the way, mods aren't involved in the ownership of the site and the owners make these sort of policy decisions.

The minute you post something on the internet, you've effectively given away control of it. All forums, facebook, instagram, youtube, yada yada all demand the right to do whatever they want with anything you post in return for providing the platform for you to share it. Once up, anyone can copy it so you'll never get control of it back. You've said it in public and don't get to take it back. 
I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think it's a realistic expectation.
Personally I don't think that UKW is any worse, and in practice better, than FB, youtube, etc - some of which I refuse to engage with.

The intarsia chap you describe is no different to anyone sharing here. He just learnt a stiff lesson about the way the internet works.

_Comments made in the heat of the moment :_
Perhaps again the lesson needs to be learnt to _engage brain before opening mouth_ (keyboard).
That's what an apology is for. You err in public so you should apologise in public, When I was a kid, the adults at least tried to teach me some manners. I have little sympathy for bad manners but I would have EVERY sympathy with someone who reported their own post, admitted they made a mistake and asked for it to be deleted if they couldn't do so themselves.

BUT
We all need to express our opinions in a forthright manner from time to time. That's kind of what off topic 2 is for. Access being restricted to contributing members, it is not open to indexing by the search engines and web crawlers (as I understand it). It's a little more private than having a debate in front of millions on prime time TV 

Hope this helps....


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## deema (Sunday at 19:35)

@Sideways I take most of your points, other than on all the social media you’ve mentioned you can edit and delete any of your posts, a facility we used to enjoy in this forum and which has been removed, backward step IMO.


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## Robbo3 (Sunday at 23:57)

I'll bet that very few read the rules before their first post.
If you don't like the rules don't participate.


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## deema (Monday at 09:26)

@Robbo3 That all depends upon when you joined! 
A forum is only as strong as those who you use it, the content it generates needs to be relevant and interesting with new exciting content being created. Taking a walk on another site where many of those who have disappeared from here appear to have surfaced I’m struck by how rich and varied the content is compared with this forum. What this forum used to enjoy as generated content is now being generated on an alternative. 

The original question is about what made these venerated contributors feel they needed to move forums and what can and should be done to help retain existing contributors and attract new and old ones back going forward.

If the rules don’t encourage people to use the forum, the rules should be reviewed.


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## Rodpr (Monday at 09:46)

I don't know about the good old days of this forum but as a relative newcomer I have to say that I find it really useful and a great resource. I really appreciate those who take the time to share work they are engaged in - often in much more detail than would be found elsewhere - and I think a bit of 'banter' helps to make it feel more like a community. I attend a local 'Men's Shed' where I am one of the youngest members (at 64!) and I often (but not always) bite my tongue when people make casually offensive comments (assuming that everyone shares their values) so it is refreshing to see that there are people who enjoy woodworking who hold a variety of (in the broadest sense) political perspectives. Unfortunately there is nothing new about the idea that challenging 'common sense' views is political but somehow accepting and supporting them isn't!


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## amongoaks (Monday at 10:13)

sawtooth-9 said:


> ... This site has changed since I joined - and not for the better.
> If this was a real business, I would review my strategy


i've been managing forums as part of my professional activities for over 20 years. my observations are that:

forums age and change over time as the membership as a whole goes through an inevitable churn. these are the winds of change and it's just part of forum life. sometimes the change is growth and increased activity, other times it's slowdowns and dry spells. it's not particularly helpful to say this but "that's just life on the forums".
forums in general, regardless of the subject matter, are in decline. one theory is that the younger crowd prefers more real-time, interactive platforms like Discord and such. personally i don't doubt that BUT i also believe that forums will, over the medium term, enjoy a modest return to popularity. i think that new stuff always gets a lot of attention at first but over time people often find the new stuff isn't as good as the old stuff and they slowly drift back to what they knew and were perfectly happy with. also, the younger crowd -- and everyone else for that matter -- seems to get a little tired of the "real time all the time" addiction and they too start looking for something a little less frenetic and a little more content based. like good old forums for example.
i'd also like to add a few words about editing and/or deletion rights:

as much as i understand and respect the "my post, my content" argument the truth of the matter, generally speaking, is that if you post on a forum you have donated that content to the forums. it's no longer your property, it's theirs. most forums need that content to remain in place for it to be worthwhile to the readership over time, not to mention the issue of the membership's subsequent contributions to that content. in my experience the forum moderators should be open to special requests -- removal of sensitive or damaging content for instance -- but, for the sake of the forum, material posted should remain in place intact. in other words no free access to edits or deletions.
if the forum management does decide to allow free access to edits and deletions they need to prepare themselves for A LOT of maintenance work cleaning things up after a spate of edits/deletions renders the remaining material incomplete at best or useless at worst. this can be a hugely time consuming and frustrating task. having done it i wouldn't wish it on anyone because in my experience what you're really doing is slowly helping dig the forum's grave: forum members REALLY don't like it when the material they've read and/or contributed to is whittled away over time completely beyond their control. they tend to give up and move on.
of course all of this depends on the type of material the forum attracts. perhaps for something ephemeral like political discussions, cryptocurrency or the stock markets, an enduring record of past discussions is not particularly useful over time. for the material that typically appears here on ukworkshop though i would say that old material is new wisdom for anyone that cares to search for and read it. in other words what has been accumulated over time, and the ability to discuss it, is pretty much the site's money in the bank (loosely speaking).

ok, well enough of that. (bows and retreats)


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## deema (Monday at 10:29)

@amongoaks That’s a really insightful post, thank you. 
In the years I’ve been active in this forum, and it might be I’m just not very observant, I think the number of deletions has been negligible when it was available. The number of times the same questions come up is huge so it would appear most users ask first search the forum for old post almost never.


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## deema (Monday at 10:30)

I’d be really interested knowing from the Mods / owner why the edit / delete function was suddenly removed. A rational always helps make accepting a bitter pill easier to swallow.


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## Fitzroy (Monday at 10:31)

I'm amazed at the level of reasoned argument and discussion on the internet, that's testimony to UKW in itself!

I have only recently noticed that I can't edit old posts, as I wanted to make a title change to highlight I'd updated my workshop build. Considering the conversation above I do think this a retrograde step. Whilst I understand that once posted everything is out there and you can never get it back, and that people can detract from the value of old posts if they have a 'moment' and declare 'it's my ball and if you don't play how I want I'll take it away', but these are the exceptions not the norm. Removing a useful function for the majority to prevent an action by the minority is just going to annoy people. All these sites have back up so if someone has a 'moment', surely the posts can be recovered and the offender banned, they likely exited stage left after their mass delete anyhow.

Regards a decline in contribution. Whilst not a prolific poster I have posted a few WIPs over the years, and I've noticed I used to get plenty of comments and criticisms, and questions. This showed people were engaged with what I was doing, helped me to learn, and made me want to post more. This engagement seems to have dropped off considerably, I'm not sure why, there are plenty of likes flying around but it's the posts that I want to engage with. That said I've just kicked off another WIP so we'll see what that brings.

F.


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## Spectric (Monday at 10:51)

On the subject of editing post, I think that maybe you should be able to edit a post but only upto when someone has responded, after that I believe editing a post can be detrimental to that threads continuity. If the OP starts a post asking for info about something and gets a dozen replies that answer the OP but then the OP realises he has not really asked the right question and edits his post, now all those replies could be left high and dry so you have answers that make no sense. Much better for OP to re post and explain his thoughts so then subsequent replies now follow his latest line of questioning. 

Also what about if someone wants to say something out of order to someone, they could post it and then change it but I know this would not happen amongst the UKW members would it.


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## Tris (Monday at 10:52)

That's a really good point about engagement with WIPs, it's rare to see a good critique these days. It can be so helpful to get a balanced view of what is good about your piece but also what can elevate it to the next level. I think a lot of those who were able to do this have moved elsewhere


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## MikeK (Monday at 10:52)

deema said:


> I’d be really interested knowing from the Mods / owner why the edit / delete function was suddenly removed. A rational always helps make accepting a bitter pill easier to swallow.


Without going into the details, when the UKW changed ownership (before I was a Moderator), the editing time for posts was in line with the other sites administered by the key staff. I can’t remember the time limit, but it was similar to other sites I visited or owned. 

There was an editing time limit on UKW under the previous owner, but this seems to have been forgotten. I had to ask the Mods to change the URLs is some of my posts when I changed my image hosting site. 

Some time after the change of ownership, an new but prolific poster asked politely to remove the editing restrictions. The Administrator removed the restrictions, and within hours the member went on a slash and burn campaign to delete content. This childish act resulted in reinstating the 24-hour editing window for everyone. Those who choose to become Sponsors have a 30-day editing window. 

I am not aware of any site that allows unrestricted editing time for the reasons described above and by @amongoaks. 

As Moderators, we are happy to make changes to any thread or post when asked.


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## Padster (Monday at 14:16)

I think having only just read all the this thread, that it is the right time and place to just say THANKS.

I've been a member a few years (long enough to have just been here when there was the big move to the other site) - the shared knowledge has been invaluable, the likes a welcome self gratification of maybe what I've said or produced has been worthwhile, and the critiques usually a good sanity check or different point of view.

So the the Thanks is to the Mods, for giving the time, and to all the other members who contribute, to the owners who to be fair run a site without too many restrictions, no real paywall and options to limit ads for free.

Thank you all.

And a note just to say when you see a troll - it's like the bully at school if you don't react they lose their power, get bored and leave.
And a second note - I stayed here and decided not participate in the other site because a site is only as good as its members - this site has been good to/for me so if I stay and contribute when I can, listen and learn when I can't, and ignore when there are idiots I make this site better (I hope!)

Padster


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## Inspector (Monday at 16:51)

Adding to what Mike said two posts up. The individual was not only deleting here he was giving instructions on another forum how to go about deleting content so more would do the same. 

I was on another small forum over a decade ago where a member had a thread going on segmenting and was telling everyone to use the charts in a book or other website to set up the angles. A couple members made the heinous mistake of adding how to do the same mathematically. That OP went nuts on them and they responded in kind but nobody quoted the OP when the made their comments so there was no record of what they responded to. The OP went back a few hours and edited his posts to remove all his rantings, portraying himself as a picked on old victim. Late comers came in defending him and the bottles continued. This went on for a few days and with everyone fighting before the thread was shut down. The OP was banned and that created such a rift that the forum activity fell off to the point where the forum owners decided to shut it down when it came time for renewal. Too bad because it was a fun little forum.

The two cases above are the reason I believe editing should only be allowed for an hour after the post and if a poster wants a revision they can ask a moderator to make the needed correction. We all can preview a post before we throw it up but if a link turns out to be bad or we spell colour as color and it creeps us out to much, an hour is lots of time to go back and correct it. It just isn't worth having a forum wrecked by people deleting all their content as they exit stage left.

Pete


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## MikeK (Monday at 18:46)

Inspector said:


> The OP went back a few hours and edited his posts to remove all his rantings, portraying himself as a picked on old victim.



This happened frequently at another site that I visited, which had a liberal one-hour editing time for the non technical areas. One member would make personal attacks against other members and would leave the comments up long enough for the members to potentially see them before editing the post. He would deny making the comments when someone called him out because none of the members quoted him before reporting the post.

He did not realize that the Moderators and Administrators could see the change history of each post. One of the Administrators changed his editing time to one minute, and the trap was set. That member was eventually banned after he made five or six acerbic posts and then could not change them.

Just in case anyone was curious, the editing window timer starts when you click "Post reply" to create the new post or "Post thread" to create a new thread. The time spent creating the post or thread does not count because there is no change to the database tables. Each post has a unique identifying number and a date/time stamp at creation time that cannot be changed. The date/time information is the basis for the editing time.


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## raffo (Monday at 19:05)

Wouldn't it be in the realm of possibility to change your software so that edits only show the latest changes to a post, but keeps the previous versions of said post? Even a deleted post could be reinstated if it causes havoc. 

Wikipedia uses that feature.

I manage databases that allow going back and editing past entries, but a detailed log of what was there before is preserved. We never delete anything.


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## MikeK (Monday at 19:17)

raffo said:


> Wouldn't it be in the realm of possibility to change your software so that edits only show the latest changes to a post, but keeps the previous versions of said post?



Changing the XenForo software is likely beyond the realm of possibility for any site administrator. The default logging time for the edit history is 60 days. After that all history for a post is purged from the tables and cannot be recovered.



raffo said:


> Even a deleted post could be reinstated if it causes havoc.



Some battles are not worth fighting.


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## Inspector (Monday at 19:18)

Software is basically "store bought" so changes and control are limited to what the designers built into it. 
Best is too be set up for the worst and never need it rather than having to go back and fix later because you relied on people being decent. 
We as members have to understand how to behave but as in life there are always people that push limits and go too far. As a kid you could gang up on the jerk and tune them up. Can't do that on a forum.

Pete


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## raffo (Monday at 20:04)

Adding code to require confirmation of posts edits by moderators could be an option. Make your changes, review, save, wait for confirmation. Specially for older posts.


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## MikeK (Monday at 20:49)

raffo said:


> Adding code to require confirmation of posts edits by moderators could be an option. Make your changes, review, save, wait for confirmation. Specially for older posts.


To be candid...not happening.


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## Valhalla (Monday at 20:52)

deema said:


> I don’t know why the ‘old lags’ left


Since you know where they are roosting you could ask them...


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## Bingy man (Monday at 23:53)

As a relatively new member I have enjoyed many threads by members and I believe I have made a reasonable contribution to this forum both in advice to others ( especially newbie’s) and I’ve received good advice in return when I’ve asked for it . Although my profession as a gas engineer spanned some 30 years I’ve always classed myself as an all rounder or all trades type of person. Woodwork ( non professional) has always been in my heart and helping others is just how I’m wired- I think ukw came along at the right time for me as a complete novice to social media- a great community, the dynamic range of so many different trades and professions, hobbyists, newbie’s, weekend woodworkers etc etc is priceless yet in the short time ive been here I’m constantly surprised at some of the replies by some of the members and of the few who ask for advice then refuse to accept the advice they ask for . I personally won’t engage in negative, non helpful comments nor will I get involved in a war of words with someone I’ve never actually met in person. I will though make my point especially if what I’m saying is 100% fact . I made the mistake recently asking why threads about sharpening were frowned upon . The 1st few posts were fair and to the point - the following 30 + posts were something like a woodwork Armageddon- won’t make that mistake again. But my initial comment was given sharpening is a fundamental part of woodworking how do newcomers get the advice they will eventually need if it’s such a done to death topic- surely the long term members could just ignore the thread and opt out by not posting and leave it to the newer members . As for the issues around editing it’s so simple to read back your own post before you hit send and change it there and then , I had to do this when sending emails to colleagues and other staff at b gas , I do the same if I’m sending a message to a customer or a supplier so it’s a good habit to get into-and a lot safer . So I too would like to thank the mods, and the members for putting a little hope back into my life at a time when I was probably at rock bottom.THANKS ALL, got to go and sharpen my chisels- oops,s I did it again 🫣🫣🫣


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## amongoaks (Tuesday at 05:37)

raffo said:


> Adding code to require confirmation of posts edits by moderators could be an option. Make your changes, review, save, wait for confirmation. Specially for older posts.


we've used xenforo for a few years now -- and it predecessor vBulletin for many years before that -- and i can attest to the fact that it is byzantine in its complexity. there are literally thousands of interlocking features that effectively prohibit "adding code" or any other such tweaks of the internals by anyone other than dedicated xenforo programmers. in the old days we used to tweak vBulletin at will but xenforo has grown way beyond that and even for old hackers like myself the prospect of getting into the guts of it to make changes is a profoundly off-putting prospect.

to be fair there are a great many plugins available for xenforo -- you can often find one to add or modify almost any feature -- but even the best of them introduces additional points of potential failure. if your forum is your money maker you learn to minimize your use of plugins. not to mention the fact that some poor moderator would have to do the actual moderation of the edits in addition to all their other moderation tasks. this takes time and time is money so the obvious cost/benefit question has to be asked and answered.

the point being that AFAIK moderator approval on __edits__ is not an existing feature. "adding code" is not really an option for mere mortals. that leaves plugins and they have the previously mentioned issues themselves. I can perfectly understand why @MikeK would say "not happening", i would too.


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## amongoaks (Tuesday at 06:10)

it occurs to me that i should have pointed out the other issue with xenforo plugins: additional maintenance effort.

every time the xenforo software is updated -- which occurs relatively often -- you have to check each of your plugins for compatibility with the new version. but plugin authors come and go, maybe they've got lives of their own and haven't got around to updating your plugin. or maybe they've abandoned the plugin entirely -- heaven forbid! -- so what then? hold off on your updates? abandon the plugin and drop that feature from your forum? press on and hope your forum doesn't break? obviously you quickly run into that cost/benefit problem again. as i'd said, you learn to minimize your use of plugins.


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## rafezetter (Tuesday at 09:05)

Spectric said:


> On the subject of editing post, I think that maybe you should be able to edit a post but only upto when someone has responded, after that I believe editing a post can be detrimental to that threads continuity. If the OP starts a post asking for info about something and gets a dozen replies that answer the OP but then the OP realises he has not really asked the right question and edits his post, now all those replies could be left high and dry so you have answers that make no sense. Much better for OP to re post and explain his thoughts so then subsequent replies now follow his latest line of questioning.
> 
> Also what about if someone wants to say something out of order to someone, they could post it and then change it but I know this would not happen amongst the UKW members would it.




This can be true regarding edits, which is why I generally used to add edits under "edit: blah blah" as it's own paragraph etc. My reasoning to adding edits to the original post is as others have said elsewhere, many (most?) people will often read only the OP plus maybe a half dozen replies so the OP needs to be as relevant to either the question or post and sometimes edited for clarity depending on what replies have occurred.

What makes total sense to you can seem gibberish to another; which is why personally at least, most of my posts are often longer than other contributors for reasons of clarity.

Also if editing is only "allowed" until the first reply - during busier periods and certain topics that can means a matter of only minutes.

As far as the other valued contributors leaving this forum, well the answer is simple - the new owners of the forum took all thier many years of contributions time, effort, WIP's etc and weaponised it for thier own profit with little regard to the actual content or contributors; as they have with their stable of *dozens* of other forums. For them this website is about advertising space and convincing you to financially support it each month despite the owners raking in a small fortune each month in ad revenue, they don't NEED your financial support to keep the lights on, the only people who technically NEED to support the forum are the users who add thier contributions freely, so that the owners don't turn it off because it's not making a profit for them. 

That's the reality now for UKW - keep paying them and they will keep the lights on, the content and members is a secondary [and mosty irrelevant] factor.

But then - "no contributors - no content - no point in visiting / joining". Without new contributors and informative contributions / WIP's etc the website merely becomes an archive, and people generally don't read old archives.

The forum they moved to isn't weaponised with adverts and is "owned" and managed by just a few members all of whom are woodworking enthusiasts - it's more like a "woodworking club" the way this forum used to be before the takeover.

If you really feel the forum and archives here are worth keeping then feel free to financially support a company already making many thousands a month, but all the information and the people that contributed it are mostly all someplace else doing the same thing.

I'll be blunt, I'm mostly only still here for the trolls.


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## Inspector (Tuesday at 16:41)

Kind of harsh rafezetter, at least in my opinion. 

Many are angry, outraged, hate the new owners and their subscription, money optional, which you having the choice to turn off, advertising business model. 

Everybody overlooks or chooses to forget the the original owner never said a word about the sale of the forum, never gave any notice of when it was going to happen nor what to expect. Didn't even say goodbye. He took the money for all the freely donated content and scurried off into the night. As far as I remember he never even gave any of the then forum members the opportunity to buy or take over the forum so it would stay a _".... forum .........owned" and managed by just a few members all of whom are woodworking enthusiasts - it's more like a "woodworking club" ........" _kind of place. 

Given all the harsh comments, hatred and abuse the new owners have taken in all it's forms since acquiring this place I think they have done very well overall, showing a lot of patience, tolerance and not even censoring the detractors. It ain't so bad.

Pete


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## Jacob (Tuesday at 17:28)

If "we" wanted democratic control we could set up a properly constituted society or club with membership rules, procedures, AGMs, votes, accounts, elected roles, etc. Could anybody be bothered? Not me!
Wouldn't necessarily make any difference as it could still be taken over by a faction - look at the Labour party!! 
As it is it's somewhat anarchistic and, as we see, anybody managing it can do more or less what they like with it.
Seems to work though?
How else would you do it?
And throughout it's various managements from way back as a Yahoo group there's aways been an angry brigade, often the same people!


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## Sideways (Tuesday at 18:26)

One of the best run niche forums I've ever belonged to was owned by the chap who set it up and was regularly involved. His forum, his rules, which led to a very clear moderation policy and zero tolerance of antisocial behaviour because there was no debate or need to work out concensus.
He was a good individual, set a good example and all worked well.
Despite all this, when the owner fell into ill health he did not make arrangements to transfer admin rights or forum ownership and it ceased to exist along with the huge accumulation of knowledge and content in it's specialist interest.

I'd rather a forum owned by a company or an individual than a committee. But neither is foolproof. At the end of the day the site only survives based on the goodwill between forum members. Thanks to everyone for that.


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## Blackswanwood (Tuesday at 18:37)

I’m really struggling to see what all the fuss is about.

This is a forum that requires no membership fee and allows members to switch off advertising. Ownership changed a couple of years ago and perhaps the way this was handled could have been better but the software got a quite significant upgrade. In any case it’s done and no one can turn the clock back to undo it. The owners sometimes ask for a financial contribution but there are no adverse consequences for ignoring any requests.

To edit content once someone has commented on it requires a PM to a moderator. Once anyone has posted it’s in the public domain so don’t post what you don’t want anyone to reuse.

No one is trapped here. We can all be members of multiple forums. There’s another forum where some talented woodworkers who used to post here now hang out. That forum has a different “ambience” and the members are welcoming to anyone who wants to join with no stigma about also being a member here. 

While it may not be perfect (like most things in life) it doesn’t feel bad.


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## Padster (Tuesday at 19:10)

BTW - I just want to say that whilst the OP talks about a decline in Valued Contributors - yes I believe I have seen some very good and informative people leave, but I also believe there are still plenty of talented and knowledgable people here.

When questions are asked I think they are generally answered - so I honestly don't see an issue, if I didn't know of some of them I wouldn't know and would still think of this as valuable and informative place.

Padster


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## Spectric (Tuesday at 19:29)

Blackswanwood said:


> I’m really struggling to see what all the fuss is about.
> 
> This is a forum that requires no membership fee and allows members to switch off advertising.


Exactly, free to join and free to use so at what point does who owns the site have any impact on us the members. The moderators are all into woodworking and active contributors so not just not appearing when moderation is required and we work as a team to discuss issues and listen to the members so yes I agree with @Blackswanwood in that 


Blackswanwood said:


> While it may not be perfect (like most things in life) it doesn’t feel bad.


but any imperfections can always be ironed out and I believe we are a great woodworking forum.


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## AJB Temple (Tuesday at 19:35)

Blackswanwood nailed it. I choose to make active contributions elsewhere, but sometimes pop in here and comment if I feel like it. This is just the internet and no one has any obligation.


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## Terry - Somerset (Tuesday at 20:27)

The "forum" was the first use of the internet to allow exchange of views from a variety of users and started (I would guess) in a crude way for ~30 years ago. The format has remained largely unchanged - predominantly text - although pictures and videos are of course possible.

Facebook, Pinterest, etc exist to exchange ideas. Formatted differently and often patronised by a completely different demographic.

Interest in practical skills has diminished in the young. When I left school in 1972 (proper) apprenticeships still existed. These have largely disappeared - in joinery we are left with a few specialist craftsman + production engineers, material scientists, designers etc who work for larger furniture makers.

This forum which I value for its mostly good humoured discussion and knowledge will disappear or evolve to be unrecognisable. I simply accept that as I age my interests, experiences and knowledge are increasingly irrelevant to those who are increasingly much younger than I.


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## raffo (Tuesday at 20:44)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The "forum" was the first use of the internet to allow exchange of views from a variety of users and started (I would guess) in a crude way for ~30 years ago. The format has remained largely unchanged - predominantly text - although pictures and videos are of course possible.


30 years ago, when the Internet took off, email was the "new" way of communicating. Mailing lists and Usenet evolved rapidly. Bashing those pesky AOL users was a sport. Web based online forums were not quite the thing yet, Mosaic was the gratest and latest, puting tables on your web page was cutting edge.

There were all those dial-in online communities, but that was before my time and I never really used them. Yuk, wasn't that what AOL was about?


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## Doug B (Tuesday at 20:54)

It makes me smile when I read folks bemoaning lost members from when the forum was sold a couple of years ago, I’ve been here long enough to know of 4 forums that have been started up by disgruntled members leaving, one in part because of the total lack of input by the previous owner & one that took far more numbers of talented individuals than the recent exodus.
No one is irreplaceable as folks leave others join it’s just the way of things, this is still the busiest of the uk forums I look at, no one’s forcing any one to be here, enjoy what is a great free resource.


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## Valhalla (Tuesday at 21:04)

raffo said:


> 30 years ago, when the Internet took off, email was the "new" way of communicating. Mailing lists and Usenet evolved rapidly. Bashing those pesky AOL users was a sport. Web based online forums were not quite the thing yet, Mosaic was the gratest and latest, puting tables on your web page was cutting edge.
> 
> There were all those dial-in online communities, but that was before my time and I never really used them. Yuk, wasn't that what AOL was about?


NCSA Mosaic.....now that is a blast from the past and then came Netscape. Don't forget Compuserve...


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## Valhalla (Tuesday at 21:09)

raffo said:


> There were all those dial-in online communities


They were BBSs - Bulletin Board Services.....probably THE first forums all on 9600 bps


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## James555 (Tuesday at 22:16)

I’m new to this forum but have been involved in many cycling forums over the years and petty squabbles can be very damaging. I don’t know if this is an issue here but I’ve seen it many times on cycling forums.


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## Jameshow (Tuesday at 22:29)

Well that's 10 mins I'll never get back!!!


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## Fitzroy (Tuesday at 22:29)

Since this post started the level of contribution on all the other posts has jumped up, I'm struggling to keep up with them. I think it's had the desired effect! I think we are all in violent agreement that UKW is a on the whole a great place, even if your pass time is just troll hunting, and that it would always be nice to see lots of photos of what folks are making, and all comments and criticisms are welcome.


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## John Brown (Tuesday at 22:34)

Valhalla said:


> They were BBSs - Bulletin Board Services.....probably THE first forums all on 9600 bps


I think you'll find there were bulletin boards on 1200/75, as in Prestel/Viewdata, and probably 300/300 baud as well.


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## John Brown (Tuesday at 22:37)

Valhalla said:


> They were BBSs - Bulletin Board Services.....probably THE first forums all on 9600 bps





The Gnome::Introduction::Celebrating the Viewdata Revolution.



For example..


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## raffo (Tuesday at 22:42)

Valhalla said:


> They were BBSs - Bulletin Board Services.....probably THE first forums all on 9600 bps


In 1992, a 9600 baud modem was hot stuff, 1200 bps was more the norm.


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## baldkev (Tuesday at 23:02)

Some of the adverts are ok.... look at this screenshot:
Victoria, 34, from ukraine  better than an advert about a boilers



Bingy man said:


> and sharpen my chisels- oops,s I did it again 🫣🫣🫣


You can say you are going to sharpen your chisels, it's fine.
Just don't for petes sake say how you intend to do it


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## Jameshow (Tuesday at 23:06)

baldkev said:


> Some of the adverts are ok.... look at this screenshot:
> Victoria, 34, from ukraine  better than an advert about a boilers
> 
> 
> ...


How come you get those ads? 
Maybe I need to up my game? 
Or get a mini digger!!


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## artie (Tuesday at 23:14)

Viktoria is very nice but could she sharpen your chisel?


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## baldkev (Tuesday at 23:16)

Jameshow said:


> How come you get those ads?
> Maybe I need to up my game?
> Or get a mini digger!!


In the preferences bit in your avatar, search down and you'll see a tick box for adult only ads.... tick that one


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## baldkev (Tuesday at 23:17)

artie said:


> Viktoria is very nice but could she sharpen your chisel?


When she gets here I'll update you on that


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## John Brown (Tuesday at 23:28)

artie said:


> Viktoria is very nice but could she sharpen your chisel?


She could sharpen my chisels any time!
How I miss Lance and Lee!


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## Valhalla (Tuesday at 23:34)

John Brown said:


> The Gnome::Introduction::Celebrating the Viewdata Revolution.
> 
> 
> 
> For example..


I'm not THAT old....


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## Valhalla (Tuesday at 23:36)

baldkev said:


> Some of the adverts are ok.... look at this screenshot:
> Victoria, 34, from ukraine  better than an advert about a boilers
> 
> 
> ...


Some say use your hand to strop a chisel, but then again......for a finer edge...


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## baldkev (Tuesday at 23:46)

Im pretty sure i once saw a post where someone claimed to have trained a horse to walk past him, turn around and walk past again whilst he held out a chisel .... for a real horse hyde stropping experience

Edit to add: we need a change of topic quick


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## Robbo3 (Wednesday at 00:19)

raffo said:


> 30 years ago, when the Internet took off, email was the "new" way of communicating. Mailing lists and Usenet evolved rapidly.


Usenet is still available.
I'm subscribed to several of the many newsgroups.


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## Dabop (Wednesday at 00:45)

Valhalla said:


> They were BBSs - Bulletin Board Services.....probably THE first forums all on 9600 bps


LOL- 9600 baud- you young whippersnapper you...
(My first BBS I used a 300 baud acoustic coupler modem (you literally dialed on the rotary dial, then stuck the handpiece into the modem- you could hear it squealing away!!!)
Several years later I moved to a 1200 baud direct coupling modem I got from my old work where they were upgrading to 4800 baud...






For those who have never seen one- an acoustic coupler modem- in fact the one below is literally identical to the one I had...





9600 baud???
'luxry' in best Yorkshire accent...
(from about the same timeframe lol)


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## John Brown (Wednesday at 07:52)

300 baud? I used to belong to bulletin boards that used Semaphore. They were slow, but much faster than the smoke signals they replaced.


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## Jameshow (Wednesday at 08:26)

Dabop said:


> LOL- 9600 baud- you young whippersnapper you...
> (My first BBS I used a 300 baud acoustic coupler modem (you literally dialed on the rotary dial, then stuck the handpiece into the modem- you could hear it squealing away!!!)
> Several years later I moved to a 1200 baud direct coupling modem I got from my old work where they were upgrading to 4800 baud...
> View attachment 150904
> ...


Strangely enough I found an old wooden phone as seen on TV, with 4? Connectors on the bottom and speaker on front and bell on top!!


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## Jameshow (Wednesday at 08:28)

baldkev said:


> When she gets here I'll update you on that


You digger got an enclosed cab as you'll be needing it!!


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## Geoff_S (Wednesday at 12:03)

Yep, 2400 baud allowed me to WFH … in 1990.


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## PhilipL (Thursday at 08:55)

Geoff_S said:


> Yep, 2400 baud allowed me to WFH … in 1990.


I wfh with 300 baud and an acoustic coupler early 1980s. Research Machines 380z. Cost a fortune.


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## sploo (Thursday at 11:24)

PhilipL said:


> I wfh with 300 baud and an acoustic coupler early 1980s. Research Machines 380z. Cost a fortune.


380Z. That's a blast from the past.


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## Geoff_S (Thursday at 12:05)

PhilipL said:


> I wfh with 300 baud and an acoustic coupler early 1980s. Research Machines 380z. Cost a fortune.


Ha ha, I had forgotten about those!

A neighbour was a professor at a university who was doing a study on young people’s attitudes towards computers.

We participated and he brought round a terminal and a coupler to connect to the university computer.

My first introduction to computer programming, great fun.

I think I was about 13 at the time so around 1969/70.

Mind you, it was soon sent back when my Dad got the phone bill.


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