# Mr Punch first appearance (I.Sorby).



## Mr_P (20 Aug 2014)

Hi all,

Fingers crossed this time tomorrow I'll be the proud owner of an early I.Sorby octagonal chisel.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/380969177581? ... 1497.l2649







Have a few I.Sorby bits n bobs but never seen such an early looking Mr Punch before.

I.Sorby the company dates from 1810 - 1963 but when did Mr Punch first appear ?

Anybody have anything that looks even earlier ?

Thanks in advance,
Carl


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## jimi43 (21 Aug 2014)

Superb find Mr P....or should I say...Mr Punch!!!

How can anyone say that buying old chisels is not the best way to go..I mean...that price!!

Great stuff...come back with some better pictures once you have your mits on it!

Cheers

Jimi


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## AndyT (21 Aug 2014)

Well, the Punch and Judy College of Professors say he's 352 years old!

(And no Jim, I'm not a member!!)

But he seems to have spent his first couple of centuries messing about with sausages and totally neglecting his tool-marking duties. I think that to properly date Mr Punch's first appearance on a tool, you'd need to consult the trademark registers held by the Sheffield Cutlers Company.

For a more accessible resource, there's a great little publication, put together in 1991 by Eileen Woodhead and published by the Canadian Parks Service! (And why shouldn't they be interested in Sheffield history? Apparently their archaelogists dig up old metal tools and cutlery on historic sites, and they need to know where and when they were made. I think it's very nice of them to have shared their reference notes. =D> )

You can download it from the Society for Historical Archaeology here: http://www.sha.org/index.php/publications/cart/download/19495

It says, on page 253, that Mr Punch belonged to Turner, Naylor and Co Ltd, who were at Northern Tool Works, Sheffield from about 1850 to 1910.

The mark must have been older than its appearences in the following directories that the author consulted in compiling the guide:

1892 White's Hardware Trade Marks
1919 Register of the Trade Marks of the Cutlers Co of Sheffield
1974 Richard Washer: The Sheffield Bowie and Pocket-knife Makers 1825-1925

Related information: Turner Naylor and Co were acquired by Wm Marples and Son in 1876 - so use of the Mr Punch marks passed to them.

The whole story is probably more complicated than this, especially if you want to fit all the other Sorby names in, or distinguish between the different versions of it. But never mind that, here's a nice Turner, Naylor and Marples ad from 1889 showing that Mr Punch was, well, pleased as Punch with the new arrangements and his *I Sorby* bag for life!!


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## toolsntat (21 Aug 2014)

Need to verify this but Charles Marples (3rd Marples brother who went his own way) has solely manufactured tools using the Punch trademark.

Not sure if it was before HE joined Turner Naylor though....

Andy


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## AndyT (21 Aug 2014)

An afterthought on my previous post, going back to the original John Sorby company.

The records consulted for the Canadian guide jump from a 1797 directory of Sheffield to the 1892 one mentioned - that's a frustratingly wide gap - I was hoping to be able to deduce a date by seeing that she had consulted mid C19th directories but not found Mr Punch there. 

I should have looked in there first, but BPM III confirms that the Sorby story is complicated. It says there that the I Sorby mark was used by ten later firms before it passed to Turner, Naylor and Co. There's a discussion about Sorby on this Sheffield History site http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/13972-joseph-turner-co/ which gives the detail. I think it's a page from "Some Nineteenth Century English Woodworking Tools" by Ken Roberts. (It's a book I don't have - if anyone has a copy they don't want, please get in touch.)

The Reeses suggest a date of around 1870 for the appearance of Mr Punch.


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## JohnPW (21 Aug 2014)

There's a 1876 Turner, Naylor and Marples advert on:
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Turner,_Naylor_and_Marples 
which doesn't have the Punch logo. That would suggest the logo was introduced after 1876 because it would be strange if the logo was in use but wasn't on the advert.


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## Mr_P (21 Aug 2014)

Thanks all and especially Andy,

John but I found this online that sold for daft money which predates Turner,Naylor and Marples by 5 years. Since its Turner,Naylor & Co. 1871 from the above link by Andy
http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forum ... turner-co/

Edit: I've still got it (muppetry that is).
Apologies John the name reverted back to Turner,Naylor &Co in 1893-1909 so this poster doesn't help.






I did some research before starting this thread and 1870 kept cropping up but so did 1920's as an end date. Since I have a 1959 catalogue full of Mr P items I know the 1920's is wrong so understandably I don't have much faith in the 1870 either.

I have emailed Sheffield Cutlers Company (thanks again Andy for the suggestion).


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## JohnPW (21 Aug 2014)

It's confusing!
From http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Turner,_Naylor_and_Marples :


> Turner, Naylor and Marples
> 
> Late Sorby and Turner. Trademark I. Sorby
> 
> ...




Is that saying "Turner, Naylor and Marples" later became "Turner, Naylor and Co"? And earlier it was "Sorby and Turner".


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## Mr_P (21 Aug 2014)

Confusing is a bit of an understatement when it comes to the Sorby's or do I do I mean Sorsby's lol.

I'm going to rebel and post this from the other site
http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forum ... turner-co/


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## AndyT (21 Aug 2014)

It's no help to the discussion, but just because it looks so good, here's a picture of a display case at the Hawley Gallery in Kelham Island Museum, also from Grace's Guide. Unfortunately you can't quite read all of the caption to see the date and I can't find my photos from my one visit there. Anyone nearby who could pop round?


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## Mr_P (21 Aug 2014)

Ladies and Gentleman, I have an answer for you thanks to AndyT and Dr Joan Unwin of the Sheffield Cuttlers Archive.

The mark of Mr Punch appears in the Company register in 1859, registered by Joseph Turner.

Other interesting info
In 1791, John Sorby registered the mark of a hanging sheep
John Sorby registered the mark of a thistle in November 1808.

So now we know, Joan also sent some images but will need to ask her permission before I share with the group (sorry, it's only polite).

My chisel also arrived and I will photograph next time the sun shines.


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## AndyT (21 Aug 2014)

Result!


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## Mr_P (22 Aug 2014)

Good news Dr Joan Unwin has no objection to the images being posted if they are credited to The Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire. 

http://www.cutlers-hallamshire.org.uk/






The mark of Mr Punch appears in the Company register in 1859, registered by Joseph Turner






In a Cutlers’ Company publication, 1919, of existing registered trademarks, the above images were owned by Turner, Naylor and Co. They appear to own the mark I SORBY also. 

The 1953 Company publication shows Turner, Naylor and Co, as the owners of the above marks, together with I and H SORBY.
From our records I cannot say when John Sorby became the sole owner of the Mr Punch mark. 


In 1791, John Sorby registered the mark of a hanging sheep






John Sorby registered the mark of a thistle in November 1808






The trademarks of hanging sheep and I AND H SORBY were owned for some time by Lockwood Brothers.

So many thanks to the The Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire for the above text and images.


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## jimi43 (22 Aug 2014)

This is some serious groundbreaking stuff and one of the reasons I love this place!!

Great sleuthing guys....and persistence!

=D> =D> =D> 

Jimi


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## Mr_P (24 Aug 2014)

I'm very disappointed, not a single joke about William Linley Pitt.

And which Pitt would this be? Pitt the Toddler? Pitt the Embryo? Pitt the Glint in the Milkman's Eye? Pitt the toolmaker who liked to stamp his tools with a trident ? :evil: 

Anyway I digress, here is a page from my 1959 catalogue confirming what Joan said above.






Always thought that the hanging sheep was a very bizarre/macabre logo but the penny has finally dropped thanks to this page and Joan. Makes perfect sense if you originally start out making sheep shears.

Anyway here is my Chisel, not sure what I can add to the pictures on ebay but I've had a bash. Once upon a time "W.HAWES" must have really rated his chisel or why else did he stamp his name on it FOUR times.


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## bugbear (24 Aug 2014)

Mr_P":2ygedbnc said:


> Anyway here is my Chisel, not sure what I can add to the pictures on ebay but I've had a bash.



There's always scope for better photography.

post795656.html?hilit=%20worn%20mark%20#p795656

Can get fiddly though.

BugBear


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## Mr_P (13 Nov 2014)

Sorby: A Famous Sheffield Tool Making Family by Geoffrey Tweedale

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/Twee ... ily-01.asp

Lots of Sorby info here including Robert , I&H and of course I.Sorby.

Shock , horror the 1810 on the advertising is WRONG he says 1816.


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## bugbear (14 Nov 2014)

Mr_P":1668zms2 said:


> Shock , horror the 1810 on the advertising is WRONG he says 1816.



(chuckle). Never trust first-hand evidence... 

BugBear


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## [email protected] (3 Jun 2020)

Rather late I know !
I have obtained an ISORBY pigsticker chisel. Mr Punch looks relatively primitive: 4 bells down his back, two dots for buttons on his front, no ear. Can anyone suggest a rough date please.


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## MikeG. (3 Jun 2020)

[email protected]":2xdzfyav said:


> Rather late I know !
> I have obtained an ISORBY pigsticker chisel. Mr Punch looks relatively primitive: 4 bells down his back, two dots for buttons on his front, no ear. Can anyone suggest a rough date please.



A couple of things.........Firstly, you really should change your user name so that you don't have an email address on public view (an open invitation to scammers). Secondly, I think the barrier to posting photos is 3 posts, so I suggest you make some contributions on the forum then come back here with a photo of the Mr Punch symbol. No-one is going to be able to offer sensible guesses without seeing it.


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## Isaac (7 Jun 2020)

MikeG.: thanks

I've tried to put up my Mr Punch mark: I've read CHJ's picture posting guide from 2012 but it is all gobblydegook to me !
Now I have run out of ideas on how to post it here.


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## Markwfish (25 Jul 2021)

Help with this chisel: i found this I & H Sorby chisel in a skip, looked like a piece of rusty old leaf spring til i cleaned it up a bit.
I have read all the links above, & some, relating too Sorby history.
In brief, John Sorby & Sons was established in 1797 & their trademark was a hanging sheep or 'golden fleece' first registered in 1791.
After J.Sorby retired his sons took over & became I & H Sorby, this company was aquired by Lockwood Brothers in 1845.
In 1932 the trademarks of John Sorby were purchased by Turner Naylor & Co, who continued to use the trademarks.
So what age is this chisel?? Regardless i would like to re purpose it & get further useage from it. To do so i need a handle! What sort of handle should it have?? Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Orraloon (25 Jul 2021)

Thats a nice looking old chisel. As to handle then whatever you like really. If you have a lathe then either design your own or copy an old handle you like the look of. Without a lathe then something 8 sided. Use a hardwood. Ferrules can be bought or just cut some metal tube.
There are chisel handles for sale but will not really look the part on a nice old chisel like that. 
Most of my chisels are old vintage ones I rescued and have had to make quite a few handles. My dad was a carpenter and always said Sorby chisels were the best.



More than half the chisels hanging behind the bench I had to make handles for. As long as it feels good in the hand and I like the look of it then its ok with me.
Regards
John


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## peterw3035 (25 Jul 2021)

Orraloon said:


> Thats a nice looking old chisel. As to handle then whatever you like really. If you have a lathe then either design your own or copy an old handle you like the look of. Without a lathe then something 8 sided. Use a hardwood. Ferrules can be bought or just cut some metal tube.
> There are chisel handles for sale but will not really look the part on a nice old chisel like that.
> Most of my chisels are old vintage ones I rescued and have had to make quite a few handles. My dad was a carpenter and always said Sorby chisels were the best.View attachment 114628
> 
> ...


John, a practical question on this great thread what is your preferred method of cutting the mortice for the tapered tang?
I've a lot of old chisels from my ancestors that need restoring but I can see that I'll need to catalogue & date the makers marks first !!


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## Markwfish (25 Jul 2021)

Hi john, thanks for your reply. I can see that 'whatever suits' is good enough. But should this chisel have a ferrule at both ends? Should it have a leather shock washer? I'd like to restore it as authentic as possible, which is why i was researching the history. So many variables . . . Handle style . . . Material?


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## Orraloon (26 Jul 2021)

In answer to the two posts above.
The hole stepped to suit the flare of the tang. Start with a hole about the size of the narrow end and go slightly deeper than tang length.then a drill about the size of the mid tang and so on. Easiest way to size drill bits for this is trace the tang on paper mark off 3 or 4 steps then hold bits against the drawing. Aim for a slightly tight fit.
For an authentic looking handle then old tool catalogues should give an idea. You need a ferrule on the tang end every time . Leather washer is a nice touch but not essential if you are not really wailing into it with a mallet. A band or ferrule on the striking end (not sure of correct term for this one) if it is going to take a heavy pounding. Usually mortice and firmer chisels. If there are ferrules on an old handle then reuse them as the very worst rusted old ones still come up like new on the lathe.
There are plenty videos on making chisel handles.

Turning a Chisel Handle | Paul Sellers - YouTube 

Fitting a Chisel Handle | Paul Sellers - YouTube

I will point out that I do it a bit different by drilling out on the lathe before I shape the handle so the hole is perfectly centered but I put up Paul's fitting video for those without lathes.
Regards
John


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## peterw3035 (26 Jul 2021)

Thanks John


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## D_W (26 Jul 2021)

Drill an undersized (but not under length) stepped hole and put the chisel in a vise and then turn the handle on the tang to increase the size of the handle. Once you are reasonably close to being finished (quarter or half inch? go by feel) and are certain that the handle is going on straight, then you can tap it the rest of the way.


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## D_W (26 Jul 2021)

(sorry, not clear - "increase the size of the handle hole" - the tang itself when the corners have some sharpness are the best method to create the appropriate taper to then compress the tang into). The turning method also allows some observation and adjustment to make sure the handle is going on straight (you can lean on it a little to change the direction of the hole while turning - not enormous amounts, but small adjustments).


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## C.R. Miller (29 Aug 2021)

To be fair, Geoffrey Tweedale states that the first (known) appearance is from an 1816 trade directory, however that does not mean that the company did not originate six years earlier. I'm of the opinion that the date of 1810 is probably correct - but it's only my opinion. Also, the original firm was Sorby and Turner (John Sorby & John Turner, but a different John than the one from Spital Hill). Joseph Turner, of Turner, Naylor & Co., was one of John's sons. So the company, as a whole, was a natural progression of the original firm.

I. Sorby is John Sorby (Sorby and Turner) for the record. There was never an Isaac Sorby. Both Geoffrey and myself have done extensive research into this for my book, which was published in 2013. Sadly out of print now but a new edition is coming.

A "primitive" Mr Punch may have just been a bad strike or a worn out stamp. These things happen. It can be difficult to date chisels sometimes unless the stamps/designs themselves change. Mr Punch was fairly consistent for 80 or 90 years, though the chisels after WWII are fairly straightforward to date because of the round shanks. I'm talking about the firmers and the bevel edge chisels here, by the way.


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