# Paul Sellers video



## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQPcHLcyRe0

Always a pleasure to watch Mr Sensible up to his tricks. Though it's a long video for such a simple wheeze.


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## Woodmonkey (12 Jul 2014)

Thanks for sharing I found that useful. Boy, was his pencil sharp, I wonder if he did that freehand...


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## woodbrains (12 Jul 2014)

Hello,

It just so happens that I drilled my bench for dogs just last week. I have an open frame bench, which had traditional square dogs with wooden springs, but now space is tight, I wanted to put storage under the bench, so no more through dog holes. I routed two tracks into the bench top where the two rows of dog holes were, plugged the holes and set in some new beech boards into the routed tracks, essentially giving me a new bench top. Refurbished my tail vice and drilled 3 rows of 3/4 inch stopped holes in the bench top and matching holes in the vice. I haven't made wooden dogs yet, I'll get round to turning some hardwood ones next week. Brush pole does not fit 3/4 inch holes, but these do.





These are absolutely brilliant and in many instances, might do away with tail vices altogether. If I was building a cabinetmakers bench on a budget, I would get these and only one shoulder vice would be needed. I think almost any holding solutions would be covered.

Mike.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

Strewth they are expensive! Who needs them? Answer; nobody really; you can do it much better with a few odds and ends of dowel etc.

Thats what I like about Mr Sensible - he isn't trying to persuade everybody that everythings is difficult and you need to buy a set of gadgets, DVDs etc


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## woodbrains (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2dhegqcc said:


> Strewth they are expensive! Who needs them? Answer; nobody really; you can do it much better with a few odds and ends of dowel etc.
> 
> Thats what I like about Mr Sensible - he isn't trying to persuade everybody that everythings is difficult and you need to buy a set of gadgets, DVDs etc


 

Hello,

There is nothing to stop anyone making their own from wood; I intend to make some additional ones this way. The adjustable nature of these is great, though as fixed wooden ones might not fit all the dog holes, if spacing was different, either intentionally or otherwise. Don't forget, they negate a vice, so not expensive really.

Mike.


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## bugbear (12 Jul 2014)

The only downside to using a face vise and its dog is that the workpiece is unsupported over the open jaws. This can be a problem with thin work.

A traditional European tail vise, or wagon vise avoids this problem, but is more work to fit.

Swings, roundabouts, choices, choices.

EDIT; nice collectible Preston (no less) router he was using! And a modern(ish) Stanley 5061 marking gauge, as recommend by our own DC.

BugBear


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## Tim_H (12 Jul 2014)

As someone thinking about retro fitting a Record vice with a dog and making some inexpensive dogs I thought this was really useful.

I liked the fact that he fitted the dog and made the spring dogs in real time, it made you feel that you could do it in an evening rather than some of the more speeded up, here's four hundred pieces of wood I power planed, cut to size and pre drilled earlier off screen stuff that is the staple of most videos. 

Horses for courses really, but worked for me.

Other methods of holding pieces of wood are available!


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":bmya5niu said:


> Jacob":bmya5niu said:
> 
> 
> > Strewth they are expensive! Who needs them? Answer; nobody really; you can do it much better with a few odds and ends of dowel etc.
> ...


Yebbut it always strikes me as such a pity that when someone is talking about simple practical ways of doing things the expensive alternative of gadgets crops up. A lot of people think gadgets are what you _must_ have, and are deskilled and ripped off in the process. 
OK so the borderline is a bit indistinct between useful/essential tool on the one hand, and stupid gadget on the other but I think these vertitas things are definitely in the second camp!
Just say no to gadgets, buy wood instead.


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 Jul 2014)

I might be sticking my neck out with this but on balance Jacob, I think possibly the large majority of folks on this forum get that your perspective is a more traditional one in respect of the whole gadgets discussion.

For me it's not black and white, but a continuum where on one extreme end you literally have flint made arrow tips ie the very early tools...all skill and materials that are literally lying on the ground. At the other end you have ludicrous gadgets like CNC where other than feed the (usually man made) board in, you're a computer user!

We're all somewhere on that sliding scale. Most of us nowhere near either end of course. Personally I have a lot of respect for Mr Sellers and his methods but I also love my sharpening gadgets. I think with me I tend to like the gadgets that replace boring and repetitive tasks but prefer traditional methods if I actually enjoy the work. So hand planing for example, who doesn't love a gossamer thin shaving and the feel of a well fettled tool (ooh err Missus!). But sharpening a really dinged chisel where you know your fingers will be killing you in a few minutes.......no thanks.

Much like Miss World when asked what she wants......world peace would be my response and failing that......at least "thread" peace :lol:


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## Tony Zaffuto (12 Jul 2014)

Is there anything new that is truly new or just refinements of methods of old (for example, pick up one of Wearing's books on woodworking gadgets, etc.). For me, this is where Paul Sellers fits in: he has realized his earnings are far easier to instruct/pass on his decades of knowledge rather than remain a barely known worker bee. My wife bought me his set of DVD's & book several years ago as a present, and I've found much of what he presents, as an easier method of doing some of what I learned through happenstance.

My father passed away in 2004, and he was a carpenter for most of his working life. He had no reservations in taking any tool and altering it to do whatever the current job at hand was. Approach to a job is different when your earnings are tied to correctness and speed of productivity. 

As now just a hobbyist that can indulge himself with the latest gadgets, for a time I found that satisfying, but sooner or later a realization is reached that the gadgetry is not woodworking, but one of dozens of ways to woodworking. Matters not if you use O1, A2 or PM-V11: what matters is actually using the tool and not just accumulating the tools.


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## CStanford (12 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":v5x013lo said:


> Hello,
> 
> It just so happens that I drilled my bench for dogs just last week. I have an open frame bench, which had traditional square dogs with wooden springs, but now space is tight, I wanted to put storage under the bench, so no more through dog holes. I routed two tracks into the bench top where the two rows of dog holes were, plugged the holes and set in some new beech boards into the routed tracks, essentially giving me a new bench top. Refurbished my tail vice and drilled 3 rows of 3/4 inch stopped holes in the bench top and matching holes in the vice. I haven't made wooden dogs yet, I'll get round to turning some hardwood ones next week. Brush pole does not fit 3/4 inch holes, but these do.
> 
> ...



Robt. Wearing shows pretty much the exact same thing in wood in his jigs and fixtures book. I can't imagine why a woodworker would buy something like this. A couple of F clamps and a selection of different thicknesses of battens would work as well or better, if not a coffee can full of nails and different thicknesses of battens. 

Lee Valley is brilliantly tapped in to the psyche of those who would rather buy than make or improvise simple jigs and fixtures. One can't even plead lack of time. Less than an hours' worth of work thicknessing a handful of battens would yield all the stops one would ever need in a lifetime of woodworking.


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## Rhossydd (12 Jul 2014)

CStanford":25cmv3f6 said:


> I can't imagine why a woodworker would buy something like this.


Because they're well made, useful and save you time.


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## woodbrains (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":1jyt6eho said:


> woodbrains":1jyt6eho said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1jyt6eho said:
> ...



Hello,

As BB pointed out above, dogs on a vice leave gaping chasms beneath the work, and tail vices/wagon vices overcome the problem, but vices have a cost and there is the difficulty in fitting these. Those Veritas planing stops, or a shop made alternative, negate a tail vice and leave no unsupported areas on the workpiece. It is even arguable that not clamping during planing is advantageous. I don't think the Veritas ones are madly expensive for something that will be in constant use. They also can be used in my tail vice, which is useful for planing the joints flush on frames etc. they ar less than 6 mm tall, so very thin stock can be planed and the movable posts will fit all the dog hole spacings, which vary between the longitudinal and transverse directions. For this convenience I was happy to pay the asking. The adjustability cannot easily be done in wood ones and certainly not in the thin sections these stops come in. My bench was built in 2001, and aside from the recent refurb, which wasn't necessary except to allow drawer boxes to be placed on the frame for storage, only cost me £250 including both vices. I think I can indulge a bit more money on some convenient work holding now! It is a 7 ft solid beech top cabinetmakers bench, with massive sapele under frame.

Mike,


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## CStanford (12 Jul 2014)

Rhossydd":2whl8217 said:


> CStanford":2whl8217 said:
> 
> 
> > I can't imagine why a woodworker would buy something like this.
> ...



They're the height of dude woodworking. I'd like to understand how anybody could have gotten along without ALREADY having a set of battens they could clamp (or tack) across or along their bench wherever they needed to place them. Bizarre.

Thickness plane rock maple or other hardwood battens at 3/16" 7/16" 11/16" and 15/16" These, obviously, accommodate planing workpieces with planned finished thicknesses of 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", and 1" If you need others just make them. Tack 'em down as needed or clamp them across the bench. Good planing exercise for the relatively uninitiated or just run them through a machine.

Done. Next.


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## Gerard Scanlan (12 Jul 2014)

Pauls Sellers' videos are watched by woodworkers around the globe. His approach is to show how you can get started with only a few tools and yet make quality work. Of course there are other ways to do things. That hardly matters here. I believe that Jacob and Tony are making fair points. But I agree with Bob too. If there is an area that you struggle with and you find something to help you get it right there should be no shame in that. However there is a big difference between a sharpening gig an extremely fancy dog system that looks like it is going to create more problems that it will solve. The beauty of a dog made from wood is that if you skid cross it you won't need to sharpen you plane or scraper blade (with or without a gig) if you bang up against a metal dog you'll spend ages getting rid of that nick in your blade before you can get back to making stuff. Speaking of which....


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## woodbrains (12 Jul 2014)

CStanford":1cqr9x7k said:


> Rhossydd":1cqr9x7k said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":1cqr9x7k said:
> ...



Hello,

Contending that there are other ways of doing things is a feeble argument. Of course there are, but everyone knows, there has never been a perfect solution to everything. There has been and always will be alternatives which some will prefer over others. Anyone could just nail battens to the bench for a convenient stop. And if that person nailed something to my bench, he might find himself being run through the planer! It is horses for courses. Anyway, nails are not free and a lifetime of nailing stuff to a bench will require more spent on them than these stops will, never mind the umpteen new bench tops. They will earn their keep in my workshop many times over, I own no tools which don't, so buying these was a truly considered investment.

Mike.

Mike.


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## woodbrains (12 Jul 2014)

Gerard Scanlan":1qb2xgvf said:


> The beauty of a dog made from wood is that if you skid cross it you won't need to sharpen you plane or scraper blade (with or without a gig) if you bang up against a metal dog you'll spend ages getting rid of that nick in your blade before you can get back to making stuff. Speaking of which....




Hello,

Wasn't sellers vice dog metal? These Veritas ones are aluminium and very low profile, hitting them with a tool is unlikely and would not damage it.

I used shop made wooden dogs for years, with ash springs to keep them at the height set, but they needed through holes to allow them to be pushed through. I have to have stopped holes now, so ones that can be accessed from the top only have to be used. Sellers ones stick up 3/4 inch, too high for many applications. I doubt a dog of that design could be made 5.5mm high and be removable without breaking a fingernail. The single hole dogs I intend to make will be even simpler than his. A round rod with a square of birch ply on top, slightly undercut to assist holding stock down and getting a purchase for lifting them out.

Mike.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

Gerard Scanlan":3camo1i0 said:


> ......However there is a big difference between a sharpening gig an extremely fancy dog system that looks like it is going to create more problems that it will solve. ........


No probs there'll be a Mark II version along in due course. :lol:


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## CStanford (12 Jul 2014)

Hello,

Contending that there are other ways of doing things is a feeble argument. Of course there are, but everyone knows, there has never been a perfect solution to everything. There has been and always will be alternatives which some will prefer over others. Anyone could just nail battens to the bench for a convenient stop. And if that person nailed something to my bench, he might find himself being run through the planer! It is horses for courses. Anyway, nails are not free and a lifetime of nailing stuff to a bench will require more spent on them than these stops will, never mind the umpteen new bench tops. They will earn their keep in my workshop many times over, I own no tools which don't, so buying these was a truly considered investment.

Mike.

Mike.[/quote]

Fine, don't tack them clamp them across. In a lifetime of bradding down battens one wouldn't lose a tenth of the wood in a benchtop as one removes in one hour when tapping a top for dog holes. It's a silly argument on that basis. In no way would you have to replace "umpteen" benchtops.

Dog holes become worn, elongated, and unusable and of course this happens first to the ones in the positions you most favor.


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## woodbrains (12 Jul 2014)

Hello,

Clamping takes time and is cumbersome to the point where they are often in the way of the work. A pair of cramps cost more than these stops and are often in use for clamping up projects, unless we buy a dedicated set for bench holding. Are you seeing the flaw in your argument? Dog holes may remove material from the bench, but not destructively so, like continually inserting and pulling nails into a benchtop which will need replacing after some years. The multiple posts on these planing stops spread the pressure and reduce, or prevent elongation. They are well designed and simple and effective. I'm not sure how another contributer here can describe them as a 'fancy dog system'. System? Really?

Mike.


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## Corneel (12 Jul 2014)

I'll have to make something like Sellers solution too. I have an old Record vise without a dog and want to put that on the end of my bench too. Now I just need to fabricate something. My situation is a little different, so the solution will be a bit different too. But it's nice to watch someone else creating a similar setup. 

I'd like to make the dog adjustable in height though.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

Corneel":1vc4i0jr said:


> ...
> I'd like to make the dog adjustable in height though.


Several different length dogs? Keep them in a kennel under the bench. You could also have them with teeth, to grip the workpiece .


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## CStanford (12 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":1ocae14x said:


> Hello,
> 
> Clamping takes time and is cumbersome to the point where they are often in the way of the work. A pair of cramps cost more than these stops and are often in use for clamping up projects, unless we buy a dedicated set for bench holding. Are you seeing the flaw in your argument? Dog holes may remove material from the bench, but not destructively so, like continually inserting and pulling nails into a benchtop which will need replacing after some years. The multiple posts on these planing stops spread the pressure and reduce, or prevent elongation. They are well designed and simple and effective. I'm not sure how another contributer here can describe them as a 'fancy dog system'. System? Really?
> 
> Mike.



No, Mike I'm not seeing the flaw in my argument. My investment in clamps *easily* outstrips the money I've spent on my basic kit of tools -- planes, saws, etc. (doesn't everybody's? how could it not?) And I bought four more clamps last week. I have a couple to spare for clamping battens to a workbench to dog a workpiece. I almost always have a batten going across anyway. Mostly clamped, sometimes tacked. If I need to change one out the clamps just hang on the bench until I insert the thicker or thinner one as it were. I definitely plead guilty as charged, though, that my operation, output, and productivity are not so highly tuned as to be hampered in any way by clamping battens.

I get the impression I'm debating the same group of people who, on the one hand, need the 'efficiency' provided by PM-V11 steel's edge holding ability, but at the same time don't own enough clamps to glue up more than a panel or two at a time.

Dig around for images of Art Carpenter's workshop, workbenches, and work too, if you're unfamiliar with it. In doing so, you will familiarize yourself with the ethic in which I approach all of this which is to get your mileage out of your tools. 

I would be mortified (pardon the pun) if after I kick the bucket somebody walks into my shop and the first impression they get is that it all looks unused. I'm all for leaving blood splatters, brad holes, and sweat stains. Doing otherwise takes too much time. :wink:


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Jul 2014)

Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.

Like those complicated and expensive Bailey-type planes for example. All you need is a chunk of wood with a cutting iron wedged in it.


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## G S Haydon (12 Jul 2014)

CStanford":2unbjuyw said:


> woodbrains":2unbjuyw said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/arts/ ... .html?_r=0


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## MIGNAL (12 Jul 2014)

Cheshirechappie":24abjbd3 said:


> Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.
> 
> Like those complicated and expensive Bailey-type planes for example. All you need is a chunk of wood with a cutting iron wedged in it.




Quite right! What took you so long?


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Jul 2014)

MIGNAL":189f4e2m said:


> Cheshirechappie":189f4e2m said:
> 
> 
> > Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.
> ...



Give it about a century, and I'll work almost anything out!

A couple more centuries, and even Jacob and Charles might get it, too!


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## dc_ni (12 Jul 2014)

Cheshirechappie":15xqgwvg said:


> Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.
> 
> Like those complicated and expensive Bailey-type planes for example. All you need is a chunk of wood with a cutting iron wedged in it.



Shouldn't that be a piece of flint wedged in it?


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## Rhossydd (12 Jul 2014)

CStanford":31wi3id1 said:


> I'd like to understand how anybody could have gotten along without ALREADY having a set of battens


I've never found the need for sets of battens that need clamping or nailing to my bench in the last 45 years of woodwork, neither did my grandfather before me.
Your failure to understand how others work differently is the problem.


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## bugbear (12 Jul 2014)

Corneel":2y63kpff said:


> I'll have to make something like Sellers solution too. I have an old Record vise without a dog and want to put that on the end of my bench too. Now I just need to fabricate something. My situation is a little different, so the solution will be a bit different too. But it's nice to watch someone else creating a similar setup.
> 
> I'd like to make the dog adjustable in height though.



I would suggest making the moving jaw very thick, far thicker than Sellers; in this way you can at least provide _some_ support for the workpiece at the vise end, before it has to leap the chasm...

BugBear


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

Some things are useful innovations. 
But many innovations are useless gadgets - people often don't spot this until after they've bought them. 
Just put "new, improved" and amateur woodworkers get really excited!
Do you really think those very expensive Veritas gadgets are an improvement on anything? 2 screws in the worktop would do a better job for next to nothing.
Roll on the Mark II version - I can't wait to spend my money!!


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Jul 2014)

dc_ni":39b9eq3g said:


> Cheshirechappie":39b9eq3g said:
> 
> 
> > Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.
> ...



Good point. Why bother with all this new-fangled metal?

Come to think of it, why bother with the wedge, either? Just tie the flint to a stout stick! Job done!


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

bugbear":6k2ox9h2 said:


> Corneel":6k2ox9h2 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll have to make something like Sellers solution too. I have an old Record vise without a dog and want to put that on the end of my bench too. Now I just need to fabricate something. My situation is a little different, so the solution will be a bit different too. But it's nice to watch someone else creating a similar setup.
> ...


What is this mysterious chasm problem? Surely with a highly adjustable dog system you'd close the vice jaws as far as possible and move the dogs instead. That's how you'd do it if you were just banging in a couple of screws or similar.
Problems problems, dear oh dear :roll: 
NB. Most planing on the bench top would be done without cramping anything - just sitting it loose and working towards a single dog or stop at the far end


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## Eric The Viking (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":23ctn6am said:


> Some things are useful innovations.
> But many innovations are useless gadgets - people often don't spot this until after they've bought them.
> Just put "new, improved" and amateur woodworkers get really excited!
> Do you really think those very expensive Veritas gadgets are an improvement on anything? 2 screws in the worktop would do a better job for next to nothing.
> Roll on the Mark II version - I can't wait to spend my money!!



We share a 'different' mindset, Jacob, I think. 

I'm quite fond of hardboard offcuts for the purpose, and they'd damage the plane's edge less if something slips.

I saw those Veritas things in the flesh today, and couldn't believe they'd made it as far as actual production. You'd've thought someone, at some point, in their marketing team would have yelled "Woah!", but no. There they were. No shame, evidently. 

It's like doing mother of pearl inlay in a screwdriver handle. Of course you can, but why???

E.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":2p3iupid said:


> Gerard Scanlan":2p3iupid said:
> 
> 
> > The beauty of a dog made from wood is that if you skid cross it you won't need to sharpen you plane or scraper blade (with or without a gig) if you bang up against a metal dog you'll spend ages getting rid of that nick in your blade before you can get back to making stuff. Speaking of which....
> ...


One simple compromise would be have blank dogs in the holes and just put a screw in the top as and when. Best of both worlds!
NB stopped holes would be a PITA and always filling with sawdust.


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## woodbrains (12 Jul 2014)

CStanford":3k5vyobv said:


> No, Mike I'm not seeing the flaw in my argument. My investment in clamps *easily* outstrips the money I've spent on my basic kit of tools -- planes, saws, etc. (doesn't everybody's? how could it not?) And I bought four more clamps last week. I have a couple to spare for clamping battens to a workbench to dog a workpiece. I almost always have a batten going across anyway. Mostly clamped, sometimes tacked. If I need to change one out the clamps just hang on the bench until I insert the thicker or thinner one as it were. I definitely plead guilty as charged, though, that my operation, output, and productivity are not so highly tuned as to be hampered in any way by clamping battens.
> 
> Dig around for images of Art Carpenter's workshop, workbenches, and work too, if you're unfamiliar with it. In doing so, you will familiarize yourself with the ethic in which I approach all of this which is to get your mileage out of your tools.
> 
> I would be mortified (pardon the pun) if after I kick the bucket somebody walks into my shop and the first impression they get is that it all looks unused. I'm all for leaving blood splatters, brad holes, and sweat stains. Doing otherwise takes too much time. :wink:



Hello,

I still don't see how clamping battens to benches is more convenient than dropping a couple of pegs with the batten attached into some holes. I don't see how clamps, that have to protrude above the surface of the batten, is more convenient than having no protrusion at all and I don't see how clamps cannot be better employed clamping the project together, rather than being tied up unnecessarily as a bench device, that is rendered obsolete by these. And clamps are not cheap so the cost of planing stops cannot be used as an argument for not having them. I am NOT going to nail things to my bench. I made it and don't want to wreck the thing, when a simple device exists to keep it unmarked and flat, so I can do good work on it. Lastly, if anyone can give me a shop made alternative to these devices, that do everything these devices do, and as well, then I will make some and return the items to where I bought them. I'm not too stupid and couldn't think of a reasonable way of doing so, hence the purchase. I could not be happier with my bench and I'd bet a pound to a pinch anyone here would be happy to work on it, too.

Mike.


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## DTR (12 Jul 2014)

bugbear":x08uvas6 said:


> I would suggest making the moving jaw very thick, far thicker than Sellers; in this way you can at least provide _some_ support for the workpiece at the vise end, before it has to leap the chasm...
> 
> BugBear



And with a very thick jaw, you have the advantage of boring a hole in it and using a height adjustable round dog similar to the others, instead of that strip of brass.


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## CStanford (12 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":3at4wzhr said:


> CStanford":3at4wzhr said:
> 
> 
> > No, Mike I'm not seeing the flaw in my argument. My investment in clamps *easily* outstrips the money I've spent on my basic kit of tools -- planes, saws, etc. (doesn't everybody's? how could it not?) And I bought four more clamps last week. I have a couple to spare for clamping battens to a workbench to dog a workpiece. I almost always have a batten going across anyway. Mostly clamped, sometimes tacked. If I need to change one out the clamps just hang on the bench until I insert the thicker or thinner one as it were. I definitely plead guilty as charged, though, that my operation, output, and productivity are not so highly tuned as to be hampered in any way by clamping battens.
> ...



As I mentioned in my first post, the LV arrangement is replicated in wood in one of Robt. Wearing's books. Just build them in wood. Perhaps I'm missing the 'magic' in the L-V product, though that would mean an eon's worth of hand tool craftsmen did as well.

I see that you're not going to nail something into your bench. That's fine, clamp them or makes the battens in wood and insert the unit into a set of dog holes. I still don't see why somebody needs to buy these in aluminum. I must be missing some 'must have' feature of these things.


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## CStanford (12 Jul 2014)

Rhossydd":1t5vpplg said:


> CStanford":1t5vpplg said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to understand how anybody could have gotten along without ALREADY having a set of battens
> ...



Well, presumably neither you nor your grandfather use(d) the new L-V battens either. So, what should we make of this?

I just visited the website and the L-V aluminum things are nothing but glorified battens so I assume you'd have no need of them. There are other ways of dogging workpieces though battens have been a favorite for several centuries.

I appreciate the fact that L-V acknowledges the usefulness of these, I just can't imagine why somebody who likes the concept wouldn't make their own or isn't already using a very close proxy. It's a little shocking to see people react as if they've never heard of using battens or haven't seen a similar arrangement in wood. I don't have my Wearing book handy but these look like a copy other than for the 'T' track bit.

Battens work well with holdfasts, too (from Great Britain, no less):

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1434

But, if your bench is a little less 'finished' then just tack them down and don't sweat it.


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## bugbear (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":3044r8s2 said:


> What is this mysterious chasm problem? Surely with a highly adjustable dog system you'd close the vice jaws as far as possible and move the dogs instead.



Yes, you (obbviously) use the various dog holes to suit the work, and get range beyond the pure travel of the vise.

The minimum vise opening is the distance between the dogs; if you have dogs every 6", your vise will need
to be open by up to 6", and some workpieces will flex too much for planing in a gap this big.

BugBear


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## Corneel (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":24y8dncv said:


> Corneel":24y8dncv said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Maybe, not a bad idea at all, but I'm the kind of guy who would loose them too soon when they aren't firmly attached to the bench. Don't worry, I'll cobble up something, which is half the fun anyway.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2014)

I don't know why anyone would pay for the Veritas things. I don't know why anyone would pay for a bench hook. I don't know why people pay for Blue spruce chisels when you can get I. Sorby's and W&P's for £3 or £4. I don't know why people would wish to put nails in their benches. I don't know why anyone would buy a bradawl.
But they don't have to justify themselves to me, any more than I have to justify my apparent eccentricities and behavioural quirks to them. We're all different. Whatever gets you through the night.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2014)

Vaguely parallel lines - I'm into cycling. They are into innovation in a big way. 
They change words in a similar fashion - crazy sharpeners call blade faces the "back" (it's like a secret handshake :shock: ). Crazy cyclist call drinking "hydration". You can buy a lot of kit to help with "hydration".
You get queries on cycling forums such as "I'm planning a 50 mile training run and am wondering about hydration". I usually reply that unless its extremely hot/hilly you don't need "hydration" at all in 50 miles but it's nice to have a drink - stop half way at a pub and have a pint of beer.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2014)

Corneel":2pxwx22d said:


> Jacob":2pxwx22d said:
> 
> 
> > Corneel":2pxwx22d said:
> ...



Just a thought - you could make the dogs sort of coffin shaped, that would give you two different heights with the same dog.
Edit - If you put a longer set screw through the wooden face of the vice, to leave an inch protruding on the back you could put a steel "button" on the stud with a wingnut. I can't visualise it as I have no access to a vice at the moment, so feel free to tell me it won't work.


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## CStanford (12 Jul 2014)

All these issues were solved a long, long time ago with different thickness battens. Lee Valley is kindly providing the exact same solution though one that requires a woodworker do no woodworking. :roll: To make a few battens. Aren't some already lying about the shop?


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## bugbear (12 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2ie8l7r9 said:


> They change words in a similar fashion - crazy sharpeners call blade faces the "back" (it's like a secret handshake :shock: ).



Some people call a simple full size plan a "rod".

Very confusing.







BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2014)

Actually when I did A level (1972) it was always the "back" of a chisel. I never thought to call it any different.


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Hello,

Look it is very simple, there are 2 posts that drop into the dog holes with the batten between. If I made them from wood, they would have to be fixed to the batten. So I have made my wooden device and saved 18 quid. (That is pounds sterling to our foreign friends) But then the longitudinal dog holes are a different spacing to the tangential. So I make another. Then I find the ones in my vice are a different pitch, to allow more scope clamping different work lengths, without having to gap the vice too much; I make a third. Then I find that no matter how accurately I spaced the holes, a bit of drill drift made the next set of holes 1/32 different to the first, centre to centre. I make a fourth and fifth for the longitudinal and tangential holes. I find the error repeats a couple of times in the 30 or so holes, in three rows, I drilled in the bench. I make a sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth. Now I can't remember which effing pair of holes each batten fits into and I wish I'd have just bought some with adjustable posts! Oh I already did and avoided that problem. Thank The Lord I'm blessed with some intelligence and foresight eh!

Mike.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2014)

Well! That'll learn you to to drill your holes accurately in the first place!!


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## CStanford (13 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":1tbwnbrc said:


> Hello,
> 
> Look it is very simple, there are 2 posts that drop into the dog holes with the batten between. If I made them from wood, they would have to be fixed to the batten. So I have made my wooden device and saved 18 quid. (That is pounds sterling to our foreign friends) But then the longitudinal dog holes are a different spacing to the tangential. So I make another. Then I find the ones in my vice are a different pitch, to allow more scope clamping different work lengths, without having to gap the vice too much; I make a third. Then I find that no matter how accurately I spaced the holes, a bit of drill drift made the next set of holes 1/32 different to the first, centre to centre. I make a fourth and fifth for the longitudinal and tangential holes. I find the error repeats a couple of times in the 30 or so holes, in three rows, I drilled in the bench. I make a sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth. Now I can't remember which effing pair of holes each batten fits into and I wish I'd have just bought some with adjustable posts! Oh I already did and avoided that problem. Thank The Lord I'm blessed with some intelligence and foresight eh!
> 
> Mike.



OK, well do show us these wonderful items in action when you get them. In the meantime, you ought to practice your hole drilling.

The easiest way to tap a benchtop for dog holes is to make a template out of 2x4 material (drill holes in the 2x4 to guide your auger bit) and clamp it where you need it. Drill holes. No drift. It's like using a big dowel jig. Hope you find this helpful some day.

Once the benchtop is tapped you are essentially looking at a full size rod of the layout for the battens or any other jigs you plan to register in the dog holes - surely there will be at least a few of these, right? Maybe something that won't wait for Lee Valley?

Otherwise, you shouldn't have to measure a thing. That's the purpose of a rod, you offer the workpiece to it and mark it. You could even use the dog holes to hold the batten posts while they're glued or otherwise attached to the body of the batten. The fit, very obviously, will be perfect since the posts are sitting in the dog holes in which they will be placed during use. Just be judicious with the glue.

This seems pretty elementary. Fun, even. An afternoon's diversion between jobs. I don't see the problem. I sense you will, though.

May I ask how you've been dogging work before L-V?

Of course, there's always this (from my post above):

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1434

A sensible and sensibly British solution to the whole sordid mess. 

Signed,

An old Tory holdout from the Colonies.


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Hello,

Charles, I don't need a lesson in drilling holes! If you think a softwood 4 by 2 would stay accurate enough to drill 30 plus holes with an auger, then I wonder how much experience you actually have at this wood working thing. I actually used a rather better piece of beech hardwood, drilled dead plumb with a rather good old drill press. However, augers have their lands relieved, to avoid too much friction in the holes, so in use, there is a little slop hence slight drilling error, which is multiplied over many holes. Then, iif you think anything can drill a whole matrix of holes across a 7 feet by 16 in area, other than CNC, so that 2 fixed posts will fit into any and every hole combination, then you are naive to say the least. You are not even considering seasonal movement, which will make all the hole spacing across the width change continuallly. The devices are well thought out, but in your hurry to condemn every new twist on an old idea, you seem to have given the details no thought. I'm not a beginner, Charles, and I know what I'm doing and that woodwork is not engineering. The tools we often use to help us do it well, however, often are engineered. And don't forget, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to have these things, I just thought It might be useful for some to hear about my bench adaption, which had to be done out of the necessity of having a smaller workshop and having to accommodate storage into a bench which previously had none. Hence altering the dog holes so that dogs did not stick out under the bench top.

Mike.


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## Corneel (13 Jul 2014)

You don't need the battens, only the dogs. So that would have saved you to make all these extra pairs.

And I wouldn't turn my bench into a swiss cheese. All these holes won't improve your temper when you have some small screws or other little things lying around on the bench. 

And I certainly wouldn't make stopped holes, or you must like to clean them out every evening.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2014)

I've got just one stop on my bench. 8" x 1" square hardwood in a tight hole. Hammer it up from below. When untidy I just plane a bit off the end (whilst it's in the hole of course). It'll do for most bench top planing ops. If more support is needed I can rest a batten against it with the other end clamped on the far side of the bench. Can't say I feel the need for end ways clamping on the bench top very often but there are plenty of ways to improvise something. I've got a hold down clamp half way along.


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Hello,

I built the bench with through holes originally, but like I said, I had to incorporate storage, so it is not an option, having push up dogs. I had to make the trade off, I need somewhere to put my tools. Small screws falling through dog holes disappear forever anyway. I might have a chance rescuing those, with a stopped hole. Like I said in a earlier post, no one has invented a perfect solution for anything, add a feature, and make something else less convenient, it is a compromise as anything in life. You pick your preferences. It is surprising how many holes drilled in the bench of this size still look insignificant, not Swiss cheese like at all. Risking even more abuse, I might post a photo tomorrow of the bench. I'll probably get a lecture from Jacob for one, on how unnecessary that sort of bench is.....but I don't care, it is only my second best one. My other one would give him a coronary!

Mike.


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## KevM (13 Jul 2014)

To provoke some further erudite discussion* get yourself a pair of pop-up Prairie dogs to complement your planing stop. :wink: Video of the prairie dogs in action.

I've previously made some 3/4" dowels with a tiny rare earth magnet set into the tops and bottoms (just so I didn't have to worry about which way up they were) protected under a blob of epoxy - hold a saw, chisel whatever over the dowel and out it pops. They work well for keeping detritus out of blind dog holes, so well that mine are on long term test with an appreciative 'friend'...

*NSFW - Derek and Clive meet Statler and Waldorf - parental advisory 18+, filthy, abusive language throughout.


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Hello,

Cant dogs are completely different things; for moving logs. I don't need those in my bench. :shock: 

Mike.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2014)

bugbear":1u8bmnf2 said:


> Jacob":1u8bmnf2 said:
> 
> 
> > They change words in a similar fashion - crazy sharpeners call blade faces the "back" (it's like a secret handshake :shock: ).
> ...


Yes you are confused.
Rods could be, but are not usually full sized plans. 
Sometimes can be literally a rod with marks e.g. stair "story rod".
More often a full sized section of say, the front of a chest of drawers horizontal and vertical and another one (or two) for the sides.
Or in the sawhorse thread the rod will be a complicated geometric drawing with little obvious resemblance to the finished item.
What they all have in common is allowing the taking off of marks onto the workpiece without the intervention of taking measurements, still less doing any calculating.

Just got a Hooper & Wells (someone recommended it probably Dave) and it's very good on the rod. Most of the old books are, many later writers seem to know nothing about them - including Wearing.


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## bugbear (13 Jul 2014)

Jacob":pemh1sg3 said:


> bugbear":pemh1sg3 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":pemh1sg3 said:
> ...



Yes, the concept is trivial, but the name is just wrong.



> Just got a Hooper & Wells (someone recommended it probably Dave) and it's very good on the rod. Most of the old books are, many later writers seem to know nothing about them - including Wearing.



It was me, phil.p and DC, in the recent book thread. You should find much goodness within its covers.

BugBear


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## dc_ni (13 Jul 2014)

This has all the hallmarks of turning into something like one of the sharpening posts ](*,) 

Can't believe no one commented on the funny title of the post, having already watched the video i thought i'd have a look to see what peeps had been saying. 

For our foreign members dogging is a, err, way that strangers get to meet and err be very friendly together :-"


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## CStanford (13 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":2qos7ld9 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Charles, I don't need a lesson in drilling holes! If you think a softwood 4 by 2 would stay accurate enough to drill 30 plus holes with an auger, then I wonder how much experience you actually have at this wood working thing. I actually used a rather better piece of beech hardwood, drilled dead plumb with a rather good old drill press. However, augers have their lands relieved, to avoid too much friction in the holes, so in use, there is a little slop hence slight drilling error, which is multiplied over many holes. Then, iif you think anything can drill a whole matrix of holes across a 7 feet by 16 in area, other than CNC, so that 2 fixed posts will fit into any and every hole combination, then you are naive to say the least. You are not even considering seasonal movement, which will make all the hole spacing across the width change continuallly. The devices are well thought out, but in your hurry to condemn every new twist on an old idea, you seem to have given the details no thought. I'm not a beginner, Charles, and I know what I'm doing and that woodwork is not engineering. The tools we often use to help us do it well, however, often are engineered. And don't forget, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to have these things, I just thought It might be useful for some to hear about my bench adaption, which had to be done out of the necessity of having a smaller workshop and having to accommodate storage into a bench which previously had none. Hence altering the dog holes so that dogs did not stick out under the bench top.
> 
> Mike.



Mike, I see that you're quite convinced it's all an impossibility or at least far too difficult for the average bear, making a set of battens that can register in a bench's dog holes. Nothing could ever fit, slop is inevitable, there's no way to drill a set of consistently spaced holes or turn a few round posts that would ever fit them. I'm a little surprised but it doesn't seem like it's worth debating any further.

I'm not quite sure why you've set it up in your mind that you can't turn a stick round to fit in a hole of any size. If this is the case then Shaker and other stick chairs must be a figment of everybody's imagination.


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## MIGNAL (13 Jul 2014)

Nothing is possible. We should all give up. Just sit down, take it easy. You know it makes sense. Leave everything to Veritas, Nasa and Ikea. :shock:


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## Rhossydd (13 Jul 2014)

CStanford":2go1vxu0 said:


> Well, presumably neither you nor your grandfather use(d) the new L-V battens either.


Not Veritas, but he did use the nearest equivalent available at the time (it's at least 50 years old, possibly much more):



Adjustable and probably the most modern help to bench work of it's time. He may have been born in 1883, but he was no luddite that insisted on a 'hair shirt' attitude and would take any helpful technology on board that was affordable.


> So, what should we make of this?


That your failure to appreciate how others can work makes your opinions less credible.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2014)

I don't think anyone here is a "luddite.....insisting on a 'hair shirt' attitude". 
It's just that there is a sizeable industry out there trying to sell us stuff we need, but also all sorts of stuff we don't really need, backed up by a media circus dependent on advertising. They've managed somehow to completely re-write the book on some topics (e.g. sharpening). 
One ancient trick they use is to persuade you that things are really difficult (it is for a beginner) and that you need to buy lotsa stuff.
I expect it's always been like this and there has always been a bit of argy bargy about the latest loony novelties and innovations.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Jul 2014)

Its the same with fishing tackle. Unbelievable amounts of money can be spent achieving basically the same as me n Dad using split cane rods in 1970. Not all bad of course but unpicking the cloud of marketing to the genuinely useful innovations can be tricky at times.


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## Spindle (13 Jul 2014)

Hi

Describing someone who has adopted a means to an end that suits them as a Luddite because they don't wish to embrace the latest offering from the tool industry is a little strong. It's up to each and every one of us to decide how we pursue our hobby / trade and how we spend our money.
The opinions of others can be helpful when considering a purchase but the 'I'm right and your wrong' posts are pointless in my opinion.

Regards Mick


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## Rhossydd (13 Jul 2014)

Spindle":3cvcbtz0 said:


> Describing someone who has adopted a means to an end that suits them as a Luddite because they don't wish to embrace the latest offering from the tool industry is a little strong.


You've missed the point. I've no problem with the Luddite faction here sticking with whatever working methods they choose, what I object to is their continual anti-innovation stance.


> It's up to each and every one of us to decide how we pursue our hobby / trade and how we spend our money.
> The opinions of others can be helpful when considering a purchase but the 'I'm right and your wrong' posts are pointless in my opinion.


Quite right.


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Hello,

I think Charles is purposely missing the point. I can turn a dowel to fit a hole sure, never been an issue. It is fixing two dowels to a batten and expecting that spacing to universally fit any and every pair of 30 or more holes, drilled by a human being with a hand held drill, that I am doubting is likely. Not impossible, but not likely and not worth the time taking pains to try.

Jacob, I do need these devices. It has nothing to do with sales pitch, or wasting money, or making up for lack of skill. These genuinely help dogging on my bench, that cannot be conveniently be clamped, won't be nailed and cannot be hammered up from below. The storage units I've put under the bench gets in the blooming way, as I keep saying. No one has come up with an alternative shop made solution to what I need, despite continually telling me I don't need these things. And as I was trying to explain, though I have a tail vice, the bench was already equipped with one, these would negate having one in the first place. Surely a saving of time, fuss and money, to someone making a bench for the first time.


Mike.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Jul 2014)

I think the important thing to realise is that an opinion is precisely that and nothing more. It may suit one woordworker and not another. I suspect the skill is in not rising to the bait!


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## CStanford (13 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":gyygoucg said:


> Hello,
> 
> I think Charles is purposely missing the point. I can turn a dowel to fit a hole sure, never been an issue. It is fixing two dowels to a batten and expecting that spacing to universally fit any and every pair of 30 or more holes, drilled by a human being with a hand held drill, that I am doubting is likely. Not impossible, but not likely and not worth the time taking pains to try.
> 
> ...



Mike, you keep seeing this as a problem in which error has the potential to grow over the whole layout. It's not one of those circumstances. If you'll quit defending your purchase and think about it I believe you'll see that it's not a problem. It really is not a problem.

In the most absurd example you could simply build the batten complete with posts and mark the posts all over the bench in any configuration, angle, etc. you cared to and each marking is wholly and entirely independent of the one that came before it. This is a crucial concept. This in fact might give you the most flexibility. Drill holes. Batten(s) fit everywhere. You're the one hung up on all the measuring. It's not necessary. I promise. Mark them and drill them one at a time, drop batten in, and see for yourself. Move to the next location. Don't measure, hell don't even eyeball it. Plop the batten down and mark. Drill. Rinse and repeat somewhere else on the benchtop where you think you might need the batten. You could have a total crazy quilt of holes (and tons of flexibility) and the batten would fit everywhere because you marked and drilled them one at a time and you used an already made batten to make each independent set of marks.

You're seeing this as a circumstance where the current set of marks to drill rely on the Xth set of marks that came before it. It doesn't have to be that way if you don't want it to be. You have the option not to make this one of those circumstances. While I'm absolutely positive that a large set of holes can be drilled consistently spaced apart (to each other) it is entirely unnecessary to do so if it makes you or anybody else, anxious.


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## iNewbie (13 Jul 2014)

The question is: how many times do these same two people _need_ to get their _biased_ opinion(s) on the same subject(s), across...

Its not one or two people bored with it. If as a moderator you see it as _bait _then perhaps action needs be taken...


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## MIGNAL (13 Jul 2014)

Don't be silly inewbie. 
It's just a difference of opinion or a different approach. People are free to air their respective views. Stop turning this into something it isn't. I don't see any personal insults being thrown about. 
Get a grip!!! :lol:


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Hello,

TBH I haven't even tested that my dog holes are not equally spaced. I'm not going to either to prove I could do it or not. The devices are hardly expensive, compared to a few pints in the pub, or a meal out. They do what I want without fuss. They will earn their keep, will not need replacing when worn out, ( they won't) and add to the overall quality of my bench and working experience. I don't see the point in penny pinching, I'm not rich, but we do not have to impose some sort of woodworking austerity. Like you, I got on for years with shop made bench dogs, but circumstances dictated that they would no linger work for me, they do for you, so don't change. It is not as if I feel the need to buy a Holtey plane and argue I cannot work without one. Actually I would not thank you for one, but I won't discourage anyone who wanted one, and would like to hear of their experiences. Actually, can anyone fill me in on owning a Holtey?

Mike.


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## iNewbie (13 Jul 2014)

MIGNAL":1mihvwdu said:


> Don't be silly inewbie.
> It's just a difference of opinion or a different approach. People are free to air their respective views. Stop turning this into something it isn't. I don't see any personal insults being thrown about.
> Get a grip!!! :lol:



I didn't mention insults. You did.

Its the same old: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGb9XB_LsKY

By: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MF6bLIWJiY


Now do you get it? :lol:


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## Racers (13 Jul 2014)

As your ignore list gets bigger your happiness grows.

Pete


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Hello,

Don't worry chaps, I'm not being unduly upset by the pestering. In fact Charles' continued attempts at trying to come up with methods to drill holes is amusing, more than anything. His last attempt would not guarantee success either, despite what he thinks. ( there is always an aspect that he misses. But having done it myself just a couple of days ago, the pitfalls are fresh in my mind. His suggestions are welcome though. My mantra is that you can only learn through error, so his erring is educating me no end.  I'll let him figure out why his last effort would likely fail to be accurate, I'm just looking forward to using my nice bench tomorrow.

Mike.


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## Peter Sefton (13 Jul 2014)

The Veritas planing stops are excellent to use and very solid with only 5mm projection above the bench top. But if you don't mind nailing or screwing lathes to your bench top you can do with out them, but I won't be going back.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater 

Peter


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## woodbrains (13 Jul 2014)

Peter Sefton":1um4fq7w said:


> The Veritas planing stops are excellent to use and very solid with only 5mm projection above the bench top. But if you don't mind nailing or screwing lathes to your bench top you can do with out them, but I won't be going back.
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater
> 
> Peter



Hello,

What's not to like? =D> :lol: 

Mike.


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## KevM (13 Jul 2014)

I was dubious until I tried one of the Veritas planing stops, after a year or so of using one I wouldn't change back.


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## Rhossydd (13 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":12wagfuv said:


> The devices are hardly expensive, compared to a few pints in the pub, or a meal out. They do what I want without fuss. They will earn their keep, will not need replacing when worn out, ( they won't) and add to the overall quality of my bench and working experience. I don't see the point in penny pinching, I'm not rich, but we do not have to impose some sort of woodworking austerity.


That sums it up nicely.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2014)

I think the whole point of the original post is being missed; that there are craft processes and things you can do for yourself which might radically improve your working life or your product, without costing much, if anything. These are empowering, capacity building, skill developing, whatever you want to call it.
It seems a pity to give up and find ourselves having to contemplate yet another expensive gadget from gadget central. Bloody boring in fact!


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## CStanford (13 Jul 2014)

Peter Sefton":x85setd7 said:


> The Veritas planing stops are excellent to use and very solid with only 5mm projection above the bench top. But if you don't mind nailing or screwing lathes to your bench top you can do with out them, but I won't be going back.
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater
> 
> Peter




Going back too.....?? What arrangement did you use before these?


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## KevM (13 Jul 2014)

Jacob, 
I tend to agree, but the whole thread has careered off-topic; for my money there's nothing wrong with either approach but sticking solely to one side is a classic false dilemma


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## CStanford (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob":38vdhaft said:


> I think the whole point of the original post is being missed; that there are craft processes and things you can do for yourself which might radically improve your working life or your product, without costing much, if anything. These are empowering, capacity building, skill developing, whatever you want to call it.
> It seems a pity to give up and find ourselves having to contemplate yet another expensive gadget from gadget central. Bloody boring in fact!



Well said Jacob.


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## woodbrains (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob":1hgq2cae said:


> I think the whole point of the original post is being missed; that there are craft processes and things you can do for yourself which might radically improve your working life or your product, without costing much, if anything. These are empowering, capacity building, skill developing, whatever you want to call it.
> It seems a pity to give up and find ourselves having to contemplate yet another expensive gadget from gadget central. Bloody boring in fact!



Hello,

Does this mean, If I posted a picture of my bench, totally hand made by me, using the minimum of tools and equipment, totally fit for purpose, and anyone here would prefer it over the one in Sellers video (I guarantee it) you would not start tearing strips of me. I think not. #-o 

Mike.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Jul 2014)

the thing is Jacob. It's a perfectly valid opinion isn't it? Your opinion is equally....perfectly valid. Really and truly BOTH perspectives have merit because not everybody values the same things. I find it slightly odd that you appear not to see that. I genuinely understand your defending the skill development side of the craft and I think it is a noble crusade on many levels but surely you must also glimpse the occasional positive side of the labour saving of some of the gadgets? I mean, really?

Take my attitude to sharpening for example. I honestly really get why you defend the manual by hand approach because it is a fabulously useful skill to have. I think any woodworker denying that would possibly have missed a fundamental building block. But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? Isn't that a genuine situation where the innovation is actually a more intelligent means of solving the problem of getting back to woodworking? And therefore has legitimate merit?


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## CStanford (14 Jul 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":320dobna said:


> the thing is Jacob. It's a perfectly valid opinion isn't it? Your opinion is equally....perfectly valid. Really and truly BOTH perspectives have merit because not everybody values the same things. I find it slightly odd that you appear not to see that. I genuinely understand your defending the skill development side of the craft and I think it is a noble crusade on many levels but surely you must also glimpse the occasional positive side of the labour saving of some of the gadgets? I mean, really?
> 
> Take my attitude to sharpening for example. I honestly really get why you defend the manual by hand approach because it is a fabulously useful skill to have. I think any woodworker denying that would possibly have missed a fundamental building block. But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? Isn't that a genuine situation where the innovation is actually a more intelligent means of solving the problem of getting back to woodworking? And therefore has legitimate merit?



The part missing from all of this is what people were using before they bought the Lee Valley whim-whams. What wasn't working? How long had the previous solution been in place? What prompted the shopping spree? I'm fascinated by the fact that experienced woodworkers were in the market for bench-battens in the first place. If pressed, I would have assumed that solutions had been in place in respective individuals' shops for decades, and that they worked.

Lee Valley comes out with this stuff, I see people gushing, and the first thing that pops into my mind is "what in God's name have you been using all this time?" This is especially true for these little tchotchkes that provide some basic function like a batten. Mystifying.


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":2l0yqar8 said:


> ...But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? ....


Yes I use a Sorby Proedge. Previously it was a belt sander - but always the risk of setting fire to it. If I had to do it by hand alone I'd use 60 grit wet n dry well flooded with liquid (any liquid will do).
The reason for avoiding crazy sharpening techniques (jigs etc) is that trad sharpening is quicker, cheaper and easier. Nothing luddite or anti-innovation about it.
No mystical ideology involved - it's just about getting things done easily and quickly.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Jul 2014)

yeah I think in the case of this particular device I don't have a comment because I've never used one. I was being more generic about the perennial discussions we seem to have of traditional approach versus gadgets. It just seems to me its a circular argument when the truth probably lies in the acceptance that both approaches have some merit depending on the circumstances. Certainly where sharpening is concerned.

I certainly think it pays for buyers to be judicious about what gadgets they buy and it is of course in the fiscal interest of manufacturers to persuade us we need all manner of solutions when often a bag of old nails and some common sense is really the best approach.

For me the credibility of the only do it the traditional way gets subverted when it gets a bit too dogmatic that's all.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob":257tfi1r said:


> Random Orbital Bob":257tfi1r said:
> 
> 
> > ...But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? ....
> ...



Right.....I'm rather surprised. Pleasantly so in fact  I'm glad you've got a PE Jacob, so you're clearly not altogether opposed to modern innovations when they're obviously useful. Out of interest, what tipped your decision to the PE? Was it sore fingers, speed...what? I'm just interested to understand what the driver would need to be for you to feel the innovation is justified?


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## CStanford (14 Jul 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":2ra9pbed said:


> yeah I think in the case of this particular device I don't have a comment because I've never used one. I was being more generic about the perennial discussions we seem to have of traditional approach versus gadgets. It just seems to me its a circular argument when the truth probably lies in the acceptance that both approaches have some merit depending on the circumstances. Certainly where sharpening is concerned.
> 
> I certainly think it pays for buyers to be judicious about what gadgets they buy and it is of course in the fiscal interest of manufacturers to persuade us we need all manner of solutions when often a bag of old nails and some common sense is really the best approach.
> 
> For me the credibility of the only do it the traditional way gets subverted when it gets a bit too dogmatic that's all.



True and depending on personalities it sometimes makes sense for one's bench not to be their magnum opus. They aren't Georgian dining tables. A bench isn't supposed to dictate terms to its owner.

I was looking through Mike Dunbar's windsor chair making book early this morning (to solve an unrelated issue) and his bench is euphemistically 'very well used.' It definitely had had the Art Carpenter treatment applied to it.


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":hg4qq83d said:


> Jacob":hg4qq83d said:
> 
> 
> > Random Orbital Bob":hg4qq83d said:
> ...


Of course I'm not altogether opposed to modern innovations when they're obviously useful - I'm using a computer here, not doing this by semaphore!

Grinding and shaping by hand is hard work, especially if you try to use a (wheeled) jig as you can't put your weight on it the same way as freehand. Though a blade holder can help - basically a jig without wheels - a piece of 2x2" with a saw kerf to hold plane blade, or a bolt through to hold it on. You can really give it some pressure then.
I don't like bench grinders - too small diameter, nasty rough grind, more nibbling then grinding, and the risk of over heating. So I used a belt sander. Cooler cut, nicely controlled bevel. Rounded bevel helps avoid overheating - you dip the blade same as for oil stone sharpening. But the sparks blast around and impact on the case, or deposits of sawdust, with a real fire hazard. I caught mine smouldering after I had switched off.
So went for the Pro-edge. Open structure is less fire risk and the whole tool is well thought out and put together. There are cheaper linishers which probably do just as well.

It's not about innovation versus tradition - it's about the infatuation with novelties and the lack of appreciation (or sheer ignorance) of the power and capabilities of many trad methods.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Jul 2014)

Good man. Glad to hear it. So its gimmicks that get your back up rather then useful innovation. And particularly gimmicks which replace a perfectly acceptable existing method?


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## Selwyn (14 Jul 2014)

I have to say Jacob talks some sense. As does Sellers.

Simple, innovative, frugal, repeatable techniques and methods of work bring far more to the amateur woodworker than feeling insecure because you haven't got the latest gadget. 

That's not a criticism of using quality tools etc. but its just about giving people confidence about what they can achieve whilst developing skills.


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## MIGNAL (14 Jul 2014)

I see the 'buy the most expensive gear' idea on many other forums. It kind of gives the impression that nothing of any quality can be done unless you have the latest, most expensive . . . (insert virtually anything!). 
Sometimes the answer to a problem is very simple, yet certain folk have it in their heads that the answer needs to be both complex and expensive. Quite often there's a very low tech, simple answer staring them right in the face but they simply refuse to acknowledge it. 
I'm certainly not against people buying expensive stuff. After all most of it is super quality and nice to own. I just feel that the alternative approach needs to be aired, just to ensure that the idea that quality work can be done with much cheaper (sometimes simpler) options. If you have 10 celebrity woodworkers (like celebrity chefs!) all ramming Lie nielsen tools down our throats you can quickly get the impression that it's the ONLY way to go. It needs some balance bringing to the proceedings.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Jul 2014)

Balance is an interesting choice of words


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## bugbear (14 Jul 2014)

MIGNAL":207hvrwe said:


> I see the 'buy the most expensive gear' idea on many other forums. It kind of gives the impression that nothing of any quality can be done unless you have the latest, most expensive . . . (insert virtually anything!).
> Sometimes the answer to a problem is very simple, yet certain folk have it in their heads that the answer needs to be both complex and expensive. Quite often there's a very low tech, simple answer staring them right in the face but they simply refuse to acknowledge it.
> I'm certainly not against people buying expensive stuff. After all most of it is super quality and nice to own. I just feel that the alternative approach needs to be aired, just to ensure that the idea that quality work can be done with much cheaper (sometimes simpler) options. If you have 10 celebrity woodworkers (like celebrity chefs!) all ramming Lie nielsen tools down our throats you can quickly get the impression that it's the ONLY way to go. It needs some balance bringing to the proceedings.



I think it's worth pointing out that gadgets can be further split into two classes - factory made and quite possibly expensive, and homemade and usually cheap. But they're both gadgets.

For homemade gadgets, Robert Wearing has a whole book of 'em (he calls them "devices"), which is rather fun.

(it may surprise some people that I have very, very few expensive new gadgets. Most of my nice, factory
made gadgets are spotted s/h and very cheap, often in need of some restoration)

BugBear


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2014)

MIGNAL":bf9psr1q said:


> I see the 'buy the most expensive gear' idea on many other forums. It kind of gives the impression that nothing of any quality can be done unless you have the latest, most expensive . . . (insert virtually anything!). .....


One result is that you get a lot of people who having bought the bling are disappointed not to find an immediate improvement in their woodwork output. In fact a lot of the stuff doesn't get used at all. Look at all the offers of posh planes, matching chisel sets; "as new in box" etc. not to mention the difficulties of "innovative" sharpening techniques.

I can think of several videos from "celebrity woodworkers" where they clearly haven't the faintest idea how to do whatever it is properly. This is why they find Paul Sellers so annoying! I think they want to make things seem difficult so they can be seen as offering (selling) solutions.


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## bugbear (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob":v9de4pyp said:


> I can think of several videos from "celebrity woodworkers" where they clearly haven't the faintest f***in idea how to do whatever it is properly. This is why they find Paul Sellers so annoying! I think they want to make things seem difficult so they can be seen as offering (selling) solutions.



I don't recall any "celebrity woodworkers" complaining about Sellers, or finding him annoying. Name/evidence please?

BugBear


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## Harbo (14 Jul 2014)

So according to certain people on here, nothing new would be innovated, created, developed, invented etc etc? Instead everything would be "traditional", S/H, recycled, restored etc etc. the Green Party would love it but not the world's economy? 
What annoys me is the people who continually bang on about how we should spend our money, implying that we don't have the intelligence to make up our own minds.
Also certain people seem to have it in for companies like Lee Valley and fall over themselves criticising their products as gimmicks etc and asserting that they are complete waste of monies.
We can all decide on our own without this constant carping.

It's a pity that these firms and "celebrities " cannot sue for internet deformation, then we might get constructive criticism in a fair way, not somebodies biased vitriol ?


Rod


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## CStanford (14 Jul 2014)

Harbo":3iuhdsnp said:


> So according to certain people on here, nothing new would be innovated, created, developed, invented etc etc? Instead everything would be "traditional", S/H, recycled, restored etc etc. the Green Party would love it but not the world's economy?
> What annoys me is the people who continually bang on about how we should spend our money, implying that we don't have the intelligence to make up our own minds.
> Also certain people seem to have it in for companies like Lee Valley and fall over themselves criticising their products as gimmicks etc and asserting that they are complete waste of monies.
> We can all decide on our own without this constant carping.
> ...



They actually can sue for such a thing in certain limited circumstances, but in pretrial discovery they would have to disclose how they themselves use active internet forum participants to market their goods. I suspect, though I cannot say for sure, that it is a bit more unseemly than most would imagine. Just a thought. One's own dirty laundry often gets aired in a courtroom.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Jul 2014)

Like all things in life, there's a balance isn't there. Some of the modern manufactured goods probably are completely useless, on the other hand, like Jacob's pro-edge Linisher, they're useful for speeding up boring and repetitive tasks. Part of the challenge is to discern which category they fall into. Many of the posts on this forum seem to me at least to offer reasonably unbiased and objective opinions on the pro's and con's. Some are more "geeky" and tend to favour the modern, some are more traditional and need to be convinced more than the words of a slick youtube pitch.

Personally I still find it a mine of useful input when I'm considering getting something because both of those points of view have their value in understanding whatever the thing is. Those very feelings that sometimes offend people are what give the understanding more than one dimension. I think if we all learned to restrain the amount of times we feel the need to repeat that opinion, ironically it would have greater impact. Its when the opinion strays into dogma that the shutters of patience come down.


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## Selwyn (14 Jul 2014)

Harbo":12lel5a7 said:


> So according to certain people on here, nothing new would be innovated, created, developed, invented etc etc? Instead everything would be "traditional", S/H, recycled, restored etc etc. the Green Party would love it but not the world's economy?
> What annoys me is the people who continually bang on about how we should spend our money, implying that we don't have the intelligence to make up our own minds.
> Also certain people seem to have it in for companies like Lee Valley and fall over themselves criticising their products as gimmicks etc and asserting that they are complete waste of monies.
> We can all decide on our own without this constant carping.
> ...



Oh no innovation is good. But not all "innovation" is innovative enough to stand the test of time or marketplace and sometimes the marketing overtakes the product. But each to their own of course.

I find it quite a shame seeing all the stuff for sale here sometimes lots of stuff "barely used" or "unopened" when really the buyer may have been better served getting down to a bit of woodwork! But I'm a liberal, there's room enough for everyone and we have the right to criticise any product brought to the marketplace if we wish. 

I don't like the cult of the celebrity woodworker personally, I think there are plenty of boring old craftsmen just as good if not better.


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## bugbear (14 Jul 2014)

Selwyn":1k0b9rbh said:


> I don't like the cult of the celebrity woodworker personally, I think there are plenty of boring old craftsmen just as good if not better.



Maybe, but it's rather difficult to learn from those who don't teach (via whatever medium).

And teaching clearly and fluently is a skill in its own right, regardless of technical skill.

BugBear


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## Spindle (14 Jul 2014)

Hi

The Oxford English Dictionary defines innovate:

"Make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products."

Note - innovation does not necessarily improve.

It's up to us to decide whether the innovations of manufacturers are improvements we wish adopt.

That's about all there is to it in my opinion.

Regards Mick


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## t8hants (14 Jul 2014)

If you are going to put up instructional video's even the tube, they must be well produced. There would appear to far more American woodworkers willing to try and present their tips and ideas, some offer an excellent presentation, and others sadly no matter how good their ideas, loose it in the production, slipshod video, & poor camera technique, which quite frankly is a shame. 

At least with the celebrity presenters you know you will get a good production, camera work that doesn't make you seasick and a reasonable sound level and balance. Are there better craftsmen out there, almost certainly, but If I can't access their ideas, they might as well be on the dark side of the Moon.


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## Noel (14 Jul 2014)

Hard to find the more well known folk on Youtube that aren't sponsored one way or another by tool manufacturers, be it Festool, LN or LV or whatever. Bit like the WW comics ref advertising etc.
But I suppose if you cut away the green and shiny stuff there can be the odd interesting/educational bits.


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## Spindle (14 Jul 2014)

Hi

That's why I stopped buying magazines years ago, the reviews were all skewed to advertising revenue - at least on here you are liable to get a fair appreciation of the product, even if it involves reading between the lines.

Regards Mick


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## iNewbie (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2c0lvh6j said:


> One result is that you get a lot of people who having bought the bling are disappointed not to find an immediate improvement in their woodwork output.



More unsubstantiated drivel. You've spoken to them all - thought not...




> In fact a lot of the stuff doesn't get used at all. Look at all the offers of posh planes, matching chisel sets; "as new in box" etc. not to mention the difficulties of "innovative" sharpening techniques.



And you've spoken to everyone who has purchased these tools (or every tool you appear to have seen for sale) to verify your deluded opinion - thought not?

Some people buy tools as Heirlooms - thats there choice. Some people never complete a project they intend to. And various other reasons. 

Here's a UK ebay search for Lie Nielsen. How many are new in the box: ebay search Seems theres a lot of used there to me...

Carry on... :mrgreen:


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## Rhossydd (14 Jul 2014)

CStanford":3he97bp5 said:


> t in pretrial discovery they would have to disclose how they themselves use active internet forum participants to market their goods.


You seriously think there are people here being paid to subversively promote Lee Valley kit ? That would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob.....are you on Lee Valley's payroll?


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":10zor5m9 said:


> Jacob.....are you on Lee Valley's payroll?


I knew it'd come out sooner or later :roll: 
Actually I did get a freeby once - a tin of Honerite honing fluid. I had to admit that it worked just as well as any other thin oil but at approaching £80 per litre was more expensive than top class whisky. Also the tin didn't pour very well so it spilled every time you poured a drop out.
Send me some good whisky and I would be happy to test it as a honing fluid, without spilling a drop.

A lot of people seem to think that this forum should be like a fan club for the media circus, clowns and all. Why don't they go and set up their own and leave us in peace? There's a Festool user group etc. Could have a "honing jig appreciation forum", "tool flattening for all" you name it.


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## CStanford (14 Jul 2014)

Rhossydd":3nzu5vu8 said:


> CStanford":3nzu5vu8 said:
> 
> 
> > t in pretrial discovery they would have to disclose how they themselves use active internet forum participants to market their goods.
> ...



I think a lot of promotional kit goes out and as a result it gets promoted.


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2014)

CStanford":1am38tcz said:


> Rhossydd":1am38tcz said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":1am38tcz said:
> ...


Definitely so, but not subversive particularly as the recipients are usually very grateful fans. I remember a certain person getting beside himself with excitement at a free sample blade of PC49 steel whatever it was. :lol:


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## iNewbie (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob":tb3gnpm3 said:


> *
> A lot of people seem to think that this forum should be like a fan club for the media circus, clowns and all.* Why don't they go and set up their own and leave us in peace? There's a Festool user group etc. Could have a "honing jig appreciation forum", "tool flattening for all" you name it.




A lot? More of your distorted opinion methinks - nothing fact based as usual...


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2014)

iNewbie":1fftujpu said:


> ......
> Here's a UK ebay search for Lie Nielsen. How many are new in the box: ebay search Seems theres a lot of used there to me...
> 
> Carry on... :mrgreen:


You didn't look did you? 
1 "as new hardly used" (new looking box in the background)
2 "excellent condition"
3 "Looks like new I don't believe it was ever used, or little"

and so on. :lol:

PS I carried on down the boring list - I couldn't find a "used" one which wasn't "as new", "unused", etc
PPS Makes you wonder about how much use they get. I wouldn't be surprised if all the novelty planes and all the expensive chisel sets actually sold in recent years, have had on average more than half an hours use. Some get used intensively of course, but many not at all.


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## Cheshirechappie (14 Jul 2014)

CStanford":a4rmx0ee said:


> Rhossydd":a4rmx0ee said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":a4rmx0ee said:
> ...



It's called 'marketing'. It takes many forms, and has done so for many years. It costs manufacturers plenty, but they must reckon it's worth it if it gets their products known and talked about. 

You are under no obligation to believe a word any reviewer has written, but the possibility remains that some may value their personal integrity enough to be honest in what they write. There also remains the outside chance that some manufacturers value their own integrity, take pride in making good products to high standards, and try hard to look after their customers. 

Not everybody out there is a cynical, screw-em-all barsteward, you know.


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## bugbear (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob":1j8oifg7 said:



> I wouldn't be surprised if all the novelty planes and all the expensive chisel sets actually sold in recent years, have had on average more than half an hours use.



I'd heard that 88% of statistics were made up, and that's a splendid example of a made up statistic.

Stick to the facts, please?

BugBear


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## iNewbie (14 Jul 2014)

Jacob":ht6p30i8 said:


> You didn't look did you?
> 1 "as new hardly used" (new looking box in the background)
> 2 "excellent condition"
> 3 "Looks like new I don't believe it was ever used, or little"
> ...



Sure I looked. Do you have a reading comprehension issue? I said: 


Here's a UK ebay search for Lie Nielsen. How many *are new in the box*: ebay search Seems theres a lot of used there to me...

You posted: 
*
In fact a lot of the stuff doesn't get used at all.* Look at all the offers of posh planes, matching chisel sets; "as new in box" etc. not to mention the difficulties of "innovative" sharpening techniques.

And now you post:

1 "as new hardly used" (new looking box in the background)
2 "excellent condition"
3 "Looks like new I don't believe it was ever used, or little"


So they do get used, then. LOL!


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2014)

bugbear":2noyoqh0 said:


> Jacob":2noyoqh0 said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't be surprised if all the novelty planes and all the expensive chisel sets actually sold in recent years, have had on average more than half an hours use.
> ...


Stick to what I actually wrote please? 
It's not a made up statistic or a fact - it's a hypothesis which "I wouldn't be surprised" if proved to be true. The evidence from ebay ("facts") surprised me at first.


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## Random Orbital Bob (15 Jul 2014)

I've told you a million times....stop exaggerating! Come on guys......just bickering now, once we get to the points scoring stage I reckon its time to move on...


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## woodbrains (15 Jul 2014)

Hello,

I am fairly certain that every item on the bay is unwanted, otherwise it would not be for sale! This does not have any inferences as to how good a product is, or how well it functions. It is LUDICROUS citing ebay listing as to how useful or how fit for purpose an item is. Some here have to argue their point with relevance, FGS. Anyone ( Jacob) can make an unsubstantiated claim, and then invent reasons why it is so. The claim and the justification are fairy tales and should be treated as such.

Mike.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2014)

Yes it's a well known fact that almost everything on ebay is hardly used, as new, excellent condition, may include the box, etc. etc. :lol: :lol:
Same picture with Veritas - ebay filtered for "used Veritas" comes up with items "Very good condition, Only been used a couple of times." and so on.

Why is this? These people don't want them obviously. Is it because these tools are useless? That'd be the obvious first guess but surely not true. 
Same phenomenon on the sale section here - high price stuff almost always not used much, if at all.
We are on to something Watson! I leave it with you.


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## iNewbie (15 Jul 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":c925x1eb said:


> I've told you a million times....stop exaggerating! Come on guys......just bickering now, once we get to the points scoring stage I reckon its time to move on...



This isn't about points scoring its about someone with a totally deluded and distorted vision of the woodworking world (he lives in) who posts as if what he says is factual. Its not. 

Where are the supposed "Guru's" on here preaching as he suggests they do. They ain't. 

Where are all the newbie's wanting LN and LV tool posts??? 

Where are the new tools (of the above makes) in the classifieds? 

Meanwhile he bangs on about Sellers who's his, Guru - oh the irony.


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## bugbear (15 Jul 2014)

There's a guy in Derbyshire who's bought and sold lots of planes over last 2-3 years. Ask him what's going on.

BugBear


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2014)

bugbear":3u413w3e said:


> There's a guy in Derbyshire who's bought and sold lots of planes over last 2-3 years. Ask him what's going on.
> 
> BugBear


 :lol: I've never sold anything which hadn't been well used. I've (rarely) sent things back hardly used - because they were useless


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## Random Orbital Bob (15 Jul 2014)

Jacob":3se17r8o said:


> Yes it's a well known fact that almost everything on ebay is hardly used, as new, excellent condition, may include the box, etc. .



I doubt the real truth is that binary. One entirely plausible reason for over zealous descriptions of items on any 2nd hand market is the desire to sell them! Rhetorical language has been used to attempt to persuade us to part with our hard earned for centuries, despite the actual condition of the item.

But one central theme which re-occurs in woodworking generally and hand tools in particular is the notion of what I call the "barrier to entry". Working almost anything with wood requires at least a modicum of knowledge and skill and that's only won by working at it and practicing the techniques etc. I do believe the spread of easy access to information is driving a generation of "have a go" at almost anything. From gardening makeovers to house renovations and of course wood working. There are probably a fair few casualties in that population who, without the proper support and coaching, never overcome the barrier to entry. You might reasonably argue that tools bought by that group pass from owner to owner almost entirely free from the joy of a gossamer thin shaving of some lovely smelling hardwood.

But I often wonder why folks with huge amounts of experience feel the need to sneer and take pot shots at the less experienced group (and their buying habits). Surely, Watson, if we're onto something, then at the same time it might be worth investigating the fragile ego's and questionable maturity of that group?


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## Rhossydd (15 Jul 2014)

woodbrains":3hc5upo2 said:


> I am fairly certain that every item on the bay is unwanted, otherwise it would not be for sale!


I don't think that's correct. Often things are being sold to raise funds and high value items that will sell easily often are the best things to choose to sell even if they are still wanted. Similarly, high value items are often looked after very carefully to retain their value.


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## Corneel (15 Jul 2014)

I just had to have a look at the ebay listing iNewbe postes above:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_t....H0.Xlie+&_nkw=lie+nielsen&_sacat=0&_from=R40

It's quite unbelievable. A lot of items are unused! Some are new in box. Even the box itself is for sale! There is not a single one in the listing that has been really used, as in making a project or two.

Of course, a statistic like this means nothing. It just means that nobody on a certain Tuesday wants to sell their well used Lie Nielsen plane, saw or chisel.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":37ryvcmq said:


> ....
> But I often wonder why folks with huge amounts of experience feel the need to sneer and take pot shots at the less experienced group (and their buying habits). Surely, Watson, if we're onto something, then at the same time it might be worth investigating the fragile ego's and questionable maturity of that group?


The point of this thread is (was) to commend a particularly simple and cheap approach to an issue. 
I think Paul Sellers approach is generally very helpful to beginners. Being pressed to buy expensive stuff is not.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2014)

Corneel":3rf5t0z9 said:


> I just had to have a look at the ebay listing iNewbe postes above:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_t....H0.Xlie+&_nkw=lie+nielsen&_sacat=0&_from=R40
> 
> It's quite unbelievable. A lot of items are unused! Some are new in box. Even the box itself is for sale! There is not a single one in the listing that has been really used, as in making a project or two.
> ...


I filtered for "used" which means they have at least been bought and taken out of the box, but the picture is just the same - they were put back in fairly promptly! :lol:


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## Random Orbital Bob (15 Jul 2014)

Jacob":18bidli2 said:


> Random Orbital Bob":18bidli2 said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



and had it remained so I would entirely agree. Its when the veering off course starts that I think everyone starts getting a little weary.


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## Rhossydd (15 Jul 2014)

Jacob":32ymvkn5 said:


> Being pressed to buy expensive stuff is not.


No one is "pressing" anyone to buy things here. In your case, the very opposite.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2014)

Sellers stopped dogging a while back.


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## Harbo (15 Jul 2014)

So where is all this "pressure" coming from and who are these "clowns" - some names may make it clearer?
Is it from mags - I don't know because I don't buy any?
TV and newspapers - never seen any tool ads there?

Wherever it is coming from (if at all) I think you must have to try hard to find this "pressure" - unless of course you spend all your time searching the net to "prove" your "hypothesises" instead of working wood? 

Rod


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## iNewbie (15 Jul 2014)

Corneel":2lefh2da said:


> I just had to have a look at the ebay listing iNewbe postes above:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_t....H0.Xlie+&_nkw=lie+nielsen&_sacat=0&_from=R40
> *
> It's quite unbelievable. A lot of items are unused!* Some are new in box. Even the box itself is for sale! There is not a single one in the listing that has been really used, as in making a project or two.
> ...



Read it again ffs.

Seriously some of you guys will bend it better than Beckham...

Butlers earlier quote was: In fact a lot of the stuff doesn't get used at all. 


When it does. Thats why its used/low mileage. The few will be unused - for whatever reason: Bought as an Heirloom/Had two people buy the same thing as a present/Jimmy Hill's chin was in the way of the price tag, etc...


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## Corneel (15 Jul 2014)

Just a few examples.

New in box:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lie-Niels...t=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item33920c227c

New, or just a few testcuts:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lie-Niels...ies_Carpentry_Woodwork_ET&hash=item3a93008244

New:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Block...44417749?pt=US_Hand_Tools&hash=item1c28d95bd5

New;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lie-Niels...ies_Carpentry_Woodwork_ET&hash=item33920becb2

New:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lie-Niels...46979885?pt=US_Hand_Tools&hash=item3f3976162d


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## Harbo (15 Jul 2014)

Get real - what as this to do with Bench Dogs??!!

Rod


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2014)

According to the post heading, Sellers has given up on the dogging.


----------



## KevM (15 Jul 2014)

Corneel":32uizv54 said:


> Just a few examples.
> 
> New in box:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lie-Niels...t=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item33920c227c
> ...



Your point, other than to stoke a squabble? Aside from irrelevance to the original intent of this thread at least one of the sellers is a US based Ebay business. As a percentage of LN & Veritas tools sold daily via retail channels the numbers that come up for sale second-hand is surprisingly low. Lower quality/desirability tools tend to go straight to recycling/car boot sales - they're not worth flogging via Ebay so any statistic based on Ebay sales is viewing the market through a distorted lens, not to mention the perennial problem of confirmation bias.

For what it's worth I've been guilty of selling many 'new' LN & Veritas tools on Ebay; I travel frequently to the US and if I buy well can make a reasonable return on buying and selling tools; remarkably people have frequently paid me more on Ebay than they could buy new in UK, but then that's a whole other story... Ebay & Paypal's fees upon fees have eroded the margins, but the (past & current) relative strength of the pound against the dollar can still make it worthwhile.

I thought the original video was interesting but as Jacob pointed out it did seem to drag out a simple message somewhat. After using a friend's bench I fitted a thick jaw on my vice so that it can accommodate 3/4" dogs; I've never had a problem with jaw capacity on my Record, but I can see on smaller vices the thicker jaw could compromise capacity.


----------



## Corneel (15 Jul 2014)

I don't have a point. It just struck me as peculiar. On a random Tuesday I look at the listing of LN tools on ebay, and I find a lot of new ones, several almost unused and only 2 (if I remember correctly) which have been used according to the seller.

BTW, I see loads and loads of cheap, worn out stuff on ebay. 

Otherwise, and like I wrote previously, this doesn't really prove anything at all.

The original itent of the thread is long gone, 6 pages ago or someting like that. Stuff happens.


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## CStanford (15 Jul 2014)

Corneel":1bg1q08q said:


> Just a few examples.
> 
> New in box:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lie-Niels...t=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item33920c227c
> ...




I just checked the Ebay USA website and the first three I clicked on were "barely used" "only used a few times" or words to the exact same effect. One fellow stamped his initials in it but states "I have taken very good care of it. I have used it very little." One plane is "still factory razor sharp" which I assume means the user never honed it and never used it enough to dull it in his opinion, but it could mean something else. And as I clicked on another plane the same description is given so some fellow is in unloading mode. 

Here's a partial description accompanying the listing for a 4 1/2 smoother: “Plane has had minimal use, and is in excellent condition..."

If the first page of results are any indication, I would honestly estimate that 70% of the listings on the main Ebay site for Lie-Nielsen tools, today, have a similar description.

Here's a description for a L-N dovetail saw: "Brand new, never used Lie Nielsen Dovetail saw (15ppi) with original leather case - has been opened and examined and is not in original packaging."

And one for a low-angle smoother: "Maybe used once to test it out, has some stains that can be removed."

Same search on Lee Valley not surprisingly yields essentially the same results -- several listings for "barely used," "lightly used," "never used."

L-V skew block: "Lee Valley / Veritas Skew Block Plane - Right Hand. This plane has never been used, and is in 'new' condition."

This is the same situation for both brands day in and day out I'd bet.

Lots of green hobbyists and gear hounds who don't know diddly getting whipped into a buying frenzy spending money they can't afford to spend with unrealistic expectations of performance and utility. They bought the hype.


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## MIGNAL (15 Jul 2014)

Actually this type of compulsive purchasing doesn't surprise me one bit. It's much, much more prevalent today than it was say 30 years ago. No doubt due to greater disposable income. The number of very expensive Guitars that I see getting resold within just 1 or 2 years of being purchased is incredible. I suspect a large chunk of it is down to a forlorn search for the holy grail. The current purchase doesn't quite live up to their dreams/expectations so they go in search for the next.


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## KevM (15 Jul 2014)

In Furniture & Cabinetmaking issue #63 there's an article in which the output (presumably annual) of LN is reported as 18,000 tools*. 

With an output of 1500 tools/month or more, seeing mint examples cropping up on Ebay is hardly surprising. As Mignal notes, many people buy their 'dream' guitar/tool/yacht/camera only to find they don't have the time/aptitude/inclination/health to pursue their dream - should they all be condemned as credulous fools for doing so?

Personally I'm pleased to be able to choose to buy and use tools at a range of price points and quality, and equally pleased that high quality tools are still in production. Also, personally speaking, I can't say I've seen this forum biassed to recommending premium tools for '_greenies and gear hounds_**', quite the reverse; there is a distinctly patronising, fundamentalist, tone coming from some of the posters - it's tiresome, destroys constructive dialogue and is actually rather embarrassing. 

*The article speaks of tools but seems to imply planes. F&C is currently on issue 221, so there's roughly 12 years elapsed from issue 63 around 2001/2? Assuming modest compound growth of ~3-5% their output could easily be 25-30,000 tools/planes per annum.
**Courtesy of CSTANFORD


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## iNewbie (15 Jul 2014)

i think we should shift tack to the evils of labrador puppy dogs promoting soft toilet roll when they lick their own,...


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## iNewbie (15 Jul 2014)

chimps and teabags - theres another...


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2014)

KevM":1b1n6xkg said:


> In Furniture & Cabinetmaking issue #63 there's an article in which the output (presumably annual) of LN is reported as 18,000 tools*.
> 
> With an output of 1500 tools/month or more, seeing mint examples cropping up on Ebay is hardly surprising. .........


True, but what _is_ surprising is that they ALL seem to be mint or nearly so, even the used ones.


----------



## Rhossydd (15 Jul 2014)

Jacob":1e0sryva said:


> what _is_ surprising is that they ALL seem to be mint or nearly so, even the used ones.


Why would that surprise you ? If you pay the top price for an expensive hand tool you're not going to kick it around the workshop floor or get it rusty. You look after it.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2014)

But not use it? In fact one exception in the lists was rusty i.e. not used (like nearly all the others) but also not looked after.


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## CStanford (15 Jul 2014)

MIGNAL":3qzj6dpt said:


> Actually this type of compulsive purchasing doesn't surprise me one bit. It's much, much more prevalent today than it was say 30 years ago. No doubt due to greater disposable income. The number of very expensive Guitars that I see getting resold within just 1 or 2 years of being purchased is incredible. I suspect a large chunk of it is down to a forlorn search for the holy grail. The current purchase doesn't quite live up to their dreams/expectations so they go in search for the next.



How true. I have promised myself a Steinway when I can play all 27 Etudes (Chopin). One never knows. It'll probably take an outright cure for rheumatoid arthritis to make it so.


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## Rhossydd (15 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2ofqcnd6 said:


> But not use it?


Who claims their 'unused' ? You've said 'mint' and 'newly new' that doesn't exclude them being used. Not everyone trashes their tools when using them.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2014)

CStanford":1gxpp0a8 said:


> MIGNAL":1gxpp0a8 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually this type of compulsive purchasing doesn't surprise me one bit. It's much, much more prevalent today than it was say 30 years ago. No doubt due to greater disposable income. The number of very expensive Guitars that I see getting resold within just 1 or 2 years of being purchased is incredible. I suspect a large chunk of it is down to a forlorn search for the holy grail. The current purchase doesn't quite live up to their dreams/expectations so they go in search for the next.
> ...



That's rather different to believing that a new Steinway will enable you to play the Chopin.


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## CStanford (15 Jul 2014)

Rhossydd":8e336g12 said:


> Jacob":8e336g12 said:
> 
> 
> > But not use it?
> ...



Why would a woodworker get rid of a very high quality plane at all? Especially basic bench planes -- Nos 3 - 8. When are you not going to need these?


----------



## CStanford (15 Jul 2014)

phil.p":1t751fuw said:


> CStanford":1t751fuw said:
> 
> 
> > MIGNAL":1t751fuw said:
> ...



Precisely the point.


----------



## Rhossydd (15 Jul 2014)

CStanford":fwzr4qe1 said:


> Why would a woodworker get rid of a very high quality plane at all?


Go back and read the thread. There are many reasons mentioned.


----------



## CStanford (15 Jul 2014)

Rhossydd":cyvncwwo said:


> CStanford":cyvncwwo said:
> 
> 
> > Why would a woodworker get rid of a very high quality plane at all?
> ...



Given that the EBay sales cycle repeats itself essentially every five days across several instances of EBay in major developed countries a lot of those reasons seem to be a bit of a stretch.

Bought, looked at, pushed around on a few pieces of wood long enough to realize it's still work that requires real skill, set on a shelf, then sold.

Oh, and in the meantime crowed about on forums about "how wonderful" they are.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2014)

CStanford":d1nicqtz said:


> phil.p":d1nicqtz said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":d1nicqtz said:
> ...


Well - I promised myself a posh guitar when I could play Capricho Arabe. I still can't but I got the guitar anyway*. It is being used and I will get there, as long as the arthritis and dementia are kept at bay! If ever sold it will show signs of heavy use. Not sure how parallel this is, if at all.

*Yamaha GC41 in case anyone is interested. I've got the chapel and the guitar now I just need a black dress!


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## MIGNAL (15 Jul 2014)

Not bad. I'm still on Sor, lesson 1. I bought the music 35 years ago. I suppose I could sell it on Ebay as near mint, very lightly used!


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2014)

I started with Carulli about 50 years ago, then started again recently and found a copy on ebay, near mint, very lightly used - including the wall charts!! :shock:


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## bugbear (15 Jul 2014)

I don't think I've put any significant wear or damage on my musical instrument of choice in twenty years of regular playing - but I think you need to be Keith Emerson to actually cause real harm to a Hammond.

BugBear


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## Bedrock (15 Jul 2014)

Given that these are being offered for sale, some by dealers, would you not expect the description to be flattering? When did you last see a second hand car advertised as knackered and ripe for the scrap yard?
I don't particularly understand the idea. but many sorts of second hand goods, collectors' items, are more valuable with a box. especially if the box is pristine.
I suspect that on this side of the water most woodworkers, certainly amateurs' are the wrong side of 50,, and have greater spending power than an apprentice or student. Regrettably a higher mortality rate as well. Thus we are able to indulge ourselves in more expensive tools, but anyone, particularly a dealer, is very unlikely to put a Clifton, LV or LN tool in a job lot, or estate sale.
It's a bit like saying that there are a lot of nearly new Mercedes cars being advertised, therefore Mercedes cars are rubbish.


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## woodbrains (15 Jul 2014)

bugbear":1y08xsnx said:


> I don't think I've put any significant wear or damage on my musical instrument of choice in twenty years of regular playing - but I think you need to be Keith Emerson to actually cause real harm to a Hammond.
> 
> BugBear


 
Hello,
You could try harder! (hammer) 

I got a Veritas LA jack from online auction, and it was used near mint. The seller was a boat restorer on the Mersey, and was obviously suffering a downturn in business and was selling off some of his tools, amongst them a lot of Veritas things. It was a bit sad this was the case for him, as he said he thought the tools were superb and intended to use them, not pander them. But his loss was my gain. I didn't have enough money to buy a couple of other things from him that I liked. The occurrence of things for sale online is absolutely no indication of those things usefulness, nor the character of the seller. The insistence that any such inferences can be made and the continual search for 'evidence' supporting such is really unintelligible. Speculate all you like, but realise that none of it can be used as fact support argument. 

Mike.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2014)

Bedrock":1ja5ddki said:


> ......
> It's a bit like saying that there are a lot of nearly new Mercedes cars being advertised, therefore Mercedes cars are rubbish.


Not at all. 
There are also a lot of old Mercs for sale, or newish ones with high milage etc. You can be certain that very few of them ever _don't_ get used. In any case we aren't arguing that they are rubbish. 
The main argument (with the tools) is that they are over priced, over promoted, oversold, to beginners. I think this is roughly true across the whole range of novelty tools and gadgets


> ...Speculate all you like, but realise that none of it can be used as fact support argument.


Why not? Facts are evidence. There may be other facts and factors but you start with what you've got in front of you.


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## iNewbie (16 Jul 2014)

Jacob":1wtbh87f said:


> In any case we aren't arguing that they are rubbish.
> The main argument (with the tools) is that they are over priced, over promoted, oversold, to beginners. I think this is roughly true across the whole range of novelty tools and gadgets
> 
> 
> ...




Feel free to show us all _where_ they are overpromoted/oversold to _beginners_ - you've made the claim now back it up. We'd all like to see it from the same planet as you do, Jacob - seriously, you are deluded at times...

People make their _own_ choices. Some people would rather buy what they buy and sell it when they do for whatever reason(s) that/they may be. Why it concerns you is beyond me. Nobody is on any forum complaining about what they bought/purchased/sold at a loss/gain - except you and CS. Get a life.


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Jul 2014)

LN, LV and Clifton have not been on the market for very long. LN started either late 1980s or early '90s in the USA, and didn't become available in the UK until the mid 1990s (I bought a couple of LNs not long after they started marketing in the UK - with the exception of people like Karl Holtey, Bill Carter and Bristol Design, they were only quality new tools available at the time.) They added small saws not long after (I bought a LN Independence dovetail saw that was streets ahead of anything else available at the time). Clifton came along in the late 1990s with shoulder planes, and added bench planes either very late '90s or early '00s - I'd have bought Clifton if they'd been on the market when I bought the LNs. I'm not sure when LV started, but I don't reacall any LV planes around at that time, though I do have a LV wheel-type marking gauge from about that time.

If they haven't been going for long, it follows that any LN, Clifton or LV planes or tools that turn up will be in pretty much new condition. The time when warning bells should ring is when someone tries to sell you a 'pre-war Lie-Nielsen' or '1930s Clifton shoulder plane'.

As to why people buy stuff new and then sell it on almost immediately, it happens. I sometimes take in Ebay parcels for the lady next door who buys a lot of her clothes that way - she reckons there are swathes of 'yummy mummy' types who buy designer stuff new, wear it once and Ebay it. Don't ask me why, but they do - so she gets the stuff at about 90% discount, and she usually looks immaculate. Maybe some people do the same with 'hobby stuff'. Don't whinge about it - just snap up the bargains while they're going. Some fool throwing their money away on things they don't understand and didn't really need could be your gain!


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2014)

iNewbie":2ib6edw0 said:


> .... Why it concerns you is beyond me. Nobody is on any forum complaining about what they bought/purchased/sold at a loss/gain .....


A large proportion of forum chat is about exactly that. What/where/who/why to buy/avoid etc. Haven't you noticed? And very useful too.


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## iNewbie (16 Jul 2014)

Jacob":pgphcj28 said:


> iNewbie":pgphcj28 said:
> 
> 
> > .... Why it concerns you is beyond me. Nobody is on any forum complaining about what they bought/purchased/sold at a loss/gain .....
> ...



Nice swerve on the old quote there: C'mon lad, back it up. You made the claim. 

*
"The main argument (with the tools) is that they are over priced, over promoted, oversold, to beginners. I think this is roughly true across the whole range of novelty tools and gadgets"*

You wrote it now prove it:


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Jul 2014)

I don't think the likes of LN, LV and Clifton are over priced. They are not cheap, but their prices are fair for what you get. Making well thought-out tools from good quality materials, to high standards, has a cost. Providing the customer back-up costs, too. I think these firms market their products honestly, too.

If you don't want to buy the products of these companies, that's fine - don't buy 'em. It's a bit presumptious to say that nobody else should buy them either - other people can make their own decisions for their own reasons.


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## Noel (16 Jul 2014)

iNewbie":396m84r0 said:


> Jacob":396m84r0 said:
> 
> 
> > In any case we aren't arguing that they are rubbish.
> ...



You were given some advice recently. Best to take it on board.


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## Bluekingfisher (16 Jul 2014)

Having read the past two or three pages of this thread I am prepared to stick my neck out and say I consider myself one of the, buy, sell, buy, sell types. 

I have to say I am a hobby woodworker, have been for 20 - 25 years or so, during which time I reckon I have spent literally thousands on my hobby. Am I ashamed or regretful of such purchases and sales....not for a second. It is my main hobby, don't drink (much) don't smoke and have stopped chasing women a long time ago. The house is paid for, I have a bed to lie in and the bread bin is full. What am I to do with my disposable hard earned? I can't take it with me. :wink: 

That said, most of the items I buy are from online auctions where I have considered the value ( to me) and purchased accordingly, usually at a fraction of the cost of a new item but on occasion purchased at or close to retail pricing. I would probably purchase new more often if it wasn't for the inflated VAT we have to pay the robbers of Westminster.

I make my judgements on available reviews and literature and from those who currently own the relevant item. I even try them out  before realising the item was not for me and subsequently selling it on. I believe we call it consumerism, it's what makes the world go round. I don't know if everyday woodworking enthusiasts have more disposable income now than they did 20 -30 years ago but there certainly was not as many goodies available then to spend it on. Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others. 

David


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2014)

Bluekingfisher":kl1x9bxz said:


> ...... Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others.
> 
> David


I'm not concerned at all how you spend your money.
But I don't see why it causes so much concern (rage and anger even!) when simple, cheap, effective, traditional ways of doing things are offered up. This is stuff that beginners need to know, particularly if they don't have much cash - e.g. crazy sharpening could increase their budget many times and put them right off from the very beginning.


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## bugbear (16 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2wp91fma said:


> Bluekingfisher":2wp91fma said:
> 
> 
> > ...... Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others.
> ...



I've once one guy call other people's methods "crazy". Not the language
of thoughtful debate. Can't remember when I saw it.

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Jul 2014)

Jacob":3l1c2s8h said:


> Bluekingfisher":3l1c2s8h said:
> 
> 
> > ...... Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others.
> ...



It's a very good thing that "simple, cheap, effective, traditional ways of doing things" are put forward. It gives people knowledge, and that is power.

The problem lies in the denigration of any other method, for any other reason. If it works for somebody, it's a valid method for them. We're all different, and what works for one may not work for another. The guitar player may not get on at all with a french horn, and vice versa. It also depends what they're trying to achieve - do they want to make a suite of furniture, or just potter quietly in the shed doing stuff at their own pace, away from the pressures of modern life? If it's the latter, and they want to spend their time seeing how sharp they can get a set of tools rather than making furniture, what business is it of anybody else to say they're wrong? How much someone is prepared to pay for their hobby or pastime is their business and nobody else's, too.


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## MIGNAL (16 Jul 2014)

Well I actually can remember when Jacob first uttered the 'rounded bevel' sharpening method. He was pretty much derided on here, laughed at. You could tell that folk were pssng themselves. I even had a little chuckle myself. I obviously wasn't thinking very clearly coz I had used a very similar method for years.
That was the days when Oil stones were in Black n' White. Not longer after that I was afflicted with the great sharpening plague.:shock: 
Sometimes it's good to go over old ground and take a fresh look at things. Last week I tried sharpening a plane blade to 600G and trying it out on some Bubinga. I shouldn't have been surprised but it really did quite a spiffing job - much, much better than I expected.


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Jul 2014)

MIGNAL":1fl7lw7u said:


> Well I actually can remember when Jacob first uttered the 'rounded bevel' sharpening method. He was pretty much derided on here, laughed at. You could tell that folk were pssng themselves. I even had a little chuckle myself. I obviously wasn't thinking very clearly coz I had used a very similar method for years.
> That was the days when Oil stones were in Black n' White. Not longer after that I was afflicted with the great sharpening plague.:shock:
> Sometimes it's good to go over old ground and take a fresh look at things. Last week I tried sharpening a plane blade to 600G and trying it out on some Bubinga. I shouldn't have been surprised but it really did quite a spiffing job - much, much better than I expected.




Absolutely. No problem at all with putting forward methods of doing things.

"I use this method, it works for me and I commend it to all." - super; we're all the wiser.

"I use this method, it works for me and you're an silly person if you do it another way." - Hmm. Not so good.


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## Noel (16 Jul 2014)

bugbear":11gl7w88 said:


> Jacob":11gl7w88 said:
> 
> 
> > Bluekingfisher":11gl7w88 said:
> ...



BB, I believe you are due some Tin.



> Joined:	16 Jul 2004, 13:42


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Jul 2014)

Got it. Took a minute, though.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2014)

Basically I intend to continue saying what I think, for evermore. :roll: 
It'd be less fraught if people stuck to issues instead of personalising things and bandying insults about.
NB "crazy sharpening" is a trivial fair comment IMHO and hardly an issue to get self righteous about. Irritating perhaps, but then we are grownups and it's not a personal comment. I'll continue saying it.
I've had to run the gauntlet through pages of abuse for daring to suggest alternatives. Riots in the forums and big schisms as some may remember. Now it's broadly acceptable to mention rounded bevels and oil stones. The strange thing about it is the way they were written out of the book - I'm still not sure how, when or why this happened.
Typically odd and unacceptable is the hysteria which greeted my recent explanation of scrub planes and camber. I would have expanded on that trivial theme but feel that there is a weird form of censorship going on here - why should I have to run the gauntlet over such little topics? "Silly" or "deluded" is also not the language of thoughtful debate.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (16 Jul 2014)

"Basically I intend to continue saying what I think, for evermore. :roll: "

Seems like you already have... :roll:


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## bugbear (16 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2xo2gydi said:


> Typically odd and unacceptable is the hysteria which greeted my recent explanation of scrub planes and camber.



No hysteria, at least on my part; I simply thought (and continue to think) that the analysis put forward was based on false assumptions, and therefore wrong.

You're not a wise court Jester, speaking truth unto power, although I know that's how you like to think of yourself. I might think you were interested in discussion (as you claim) if I'd _ever_ seen you acknowledge the merit of someone else's idea and change your mind, but in 7000 posts, I don't recall it happening.

BugBear


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2014)

bugbear":1gm4qjx0 said:


> ..
> You're not a wise court Jester, speaking truth unto power, although I know that's how you like to think of yourself....


Personally offensive as usual, which is always a good indication that someone had lost an argument.
On the stupid issue of scrub planes/camber I happen to be right and it's not rocket science, but let's face it no serious discussion is possible in the atmosphere of this forum.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (16 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2zdc5xvq said:


> Basically I intend to continue saying what I think, for evermore. :roll:
> It'd be less fraught if people stuck to issues instead of personalising things and bandying insults about.
> NB "crazy sharpening" is a trivial fair comment IMHO and hardly an issue to get self righteous about. Irritating perhaps, but then we are grownups and it's not a personal comment. I'll continue saying it.
> I've had to run the gauntlet through pages of abuse for daring to suggest alternatives. Riots in the forums and big schisms as some may remember. Now it's broadly acceptable to mention rounded bevels and oil stones. The strange thing about it is the way they were written out of the book - I'm still not sure how, when or why this happened.
> Typically odd and unacceptable is the hysteria which greeted my recent explanation of scrub planes and camber. I would have expanded on that trivial theme but feel that there is a weird form of censorship going on here - why should I have to run the gauntlet over such little topics? "Silly" or "deluded" is also not the language of thoughtful debate.



There are ways of saying what you think, though. It's not like banter in the pub where facial expression and tone of voice can be gauged, so what may have been written as 'banter' may come across in the pixels on a screen many miles away as insulting. Getting the tone right all the time isn't easy - I wouldn't claim that I always get it right - but it's worth trying to keep things fairly neutral. It avoids misunderstandings and unpleasantness.

Perhaps it's worth a think about the use of the phrase 'crazy sharpeners'. It's fine to explain the benefits of off-hand sharpening on an oilstone (I off-hand sharpen myself, sometimes on ceramic stones and sometimes on a combination India and a Dragon's Tongue slate - the method suits me and gives me edges that suit my work), but some people just don't get on with freehand shapening at all, and find they can get better results, or more consistent results, using other methods. If their method works for them, when freehand shapening doesn't work so well, they may be rather insulted to be called a 'crazy sharpener'. After all, you're insulted by Bugbear's reference to court jester speaking truth to power, yet I read that phrase as a toned-down metaphor.

One of the downsides of abusive language on internet forums is that it invariably attracts more abuse in response. One way to avoid abuse is to think carefully before using language that might be interpreted as insulting. Don't dish it out if you don't want it back.

Putting foward ideas, relating experience, thoughtful debate - fine, that's what we're here for. But there are more ways than one to do almost anything, and other views may be just as valid. "Different people, different ways" as D.H.Lawrence once wrote.


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## Sgian Dubh (16 Jul 2014)

bugbear":8ox02g7n said:


> I might think you were interested in discussion (as you claim) if I'd _ever_ seen you acknowledge the merit of someone else's idea and change your mind, but in 7000 posts, I don't recall it happening. BugBear


BB, he merits my description of learning to sharpen back in the dark days of the 1970s enough to put a link to its URL on his website. I don't think what I said in my description caused him to change his mind about anything though. 

As to this thread, apart from the first post which linked to an interesting and relatively low cost and simple method of work which is, incidentally, not new (no bad thing necessarily), the rest of it is all pretty much the usual mixture of vinegar, p*ss and wind, and until this point not in my opinion worth a contribution from me (too many other things more interesting to do): and Jacob should probably have abandoned contributing to it about 170 posts back and just left the darned thing to wither naturally. Slainte.


----------



## bugbear (16 Jul 2014)

Jacob":2v3swxya said:


> On the stupid issue of scrub planes/camber I happen to be right



You _happen_ to be wrong, and I provided evidence, analysis and (finally) proven deductions to that end.

You provide (endlessly, stridently) repeated assertions.

Camber works (most people have experienced and enjoyed this), but semi circle is not optimal under any plausible assumptions.

Simples. Reread the thread for detailed reasoning.

BugBear


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