# sealing vase to hold water



## buzzby (8 Jun 2015)

Hi Guys,

I have 12 vases in sycamore that i have turned (pics to follow once all finished). All about 11x6 inches. I need to finish them so that they will hold water as well as a finish on the outside. I'd like them to be quite hard wearing so was thinking of polyurethane for the outside or some spray lacquer but i have no idea what to do on the inside. Would polyurethane work on the inside to hold water or do i need some sort of epoxy.

I'm thinking it needs to be epoxy but i have no clue where and what one to use or even the best way to try and apply it. What have you guys done to solve this?

Also what would you recommend for the outside. I don't have a spray gun, are the spray cans any good. Again what names do people use.


Thanks


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## Jacob (8 Jun 2015)

Impossible.
I'd find some jam jars to fit inside to hold water and perhaps have a very oily finish inside (linseed oil) in case of spillage etc. 
Then use anything you fancy for the outside.


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## bugbear (8 Jun 2015)

Here's a related thread, speaking of wooden drinking vessels;

http://livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewt ... 10&t=31303

Wooden barrels hold liquid with no sealing coat at all, so there's no reason in principle it can't be done.

BugBear


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## Doug B (8 Jun 2015)

Treatex oil


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## Jacob (8 Jun 2015)

bugbear":1nw9rqrj said:


> Here's a related thread, speaking of wooden drinking vessels;
> 
> http://livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewt ... 10&t=31303
> 
> ...


They do it by construction detailing - staves expand into the hoops or wet turned tube shrinks onto inserted base etc. Non of them do it by finish alone.
We use turned wooden bowls for food but it's never in there for long and in between uses the wood gets a chance to dry out.


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## CHJ (8 Jun 2015)

There is nothing practical that you can coat the sycamore with that will hold water long enough to continually use as cut flower vases without them eventually showing external staining through moisture weep.

Best resign yourself to using them for dry flower arrangements.

I use tall summer drinks glasses or Larger glasses as liners for any likely to be used for cut flower use.


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## bugbear (8 Jun 2015)

Jacob":49g68yw5 said:


> bugbear":49g68yw5 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a related thread, speaking of wooden drinking vessels;
> ...



I cited barrels to make the point that wood is waterproof, wether as staves, or in the solid. We make barrels,
not merely as a way of making wood waterproof, but as a way of economising on wood - it would be absurd
to hollow out a huge log to make a water container.

Robin Wood (you've heard of him) turns one-piece *drinking* bowls, as mentioned in the thread I posted, used for whisky!

http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/product-cat ... s-quaichs/

BugBear


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## Beau (8 Jun 2015)

2 pack epoxy varnish should do the trick. Used for the outer coating of wooden yachts so must be up to the job. Can't remember the brand we used but can look it up if you need more info.


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## CHJ (8 Jun 2015)

All barrels leak, as do the solid turned drinking vessels, it's all down to the amount that finds it's way out through the thickness of the wood.

Hence the term "The Angels Share" relating to Whisky or fortified Wine loss of 10-15% during storage/aging, and why old Barrel wood that has stored desirable beverages is sold at a premium to the crafts industry because it is impregnated with the 'bouquet' from the leaking contents. 

The staining that eventually finds it way through the body of a drinking vessel may well be considered as desirable patina but is more than likely to result in ugly staining of a Vase, especially one made of a light wood like Sycamore.
Furthermore standing a wooden Vase, turned from solid, or coopered, on any surface not impervious to water damage is likely to result in surface defects within hours.

Coating the insides with epoxy or similar may well prevent significant leakage in a drinking vessel used for 20-30 mins to be a problem, that's very different to something containing water 24/7. 

3-6-12 months down the line after the item has been exposed to the sun on a windowsill or near a radiator and subsequent use has caused serious damage to an expensive piece of furniture is an unfortunate way to prove the principle.


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## buzzby (8 Jun 2015)

I really didn't think it would be that hard as wooden boats can spend a lifetime in the water. I have found http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/products/epoxy-resin/epoxy-coating-resin.aspx which is waterproof once cured. 

Might try and get some glass liners anyway.

I'm sure i have a memory of someone on here saying how they did it without any problems.

Ignoring the waterproof bit any advice on an outside finish?


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## Woodmonkey (8 Jun 2015)

Rustin's plastic coating seems fairly bomb proof you could try that.


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## Beau (8 Jun 2015)

buzzby":vp3pytzd said:


> I really didn't think it would be that hard as wooden boats can spend a lifetime in the water. I have found http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/products/epoxy-resin/epoxy-coating-resin.aspx which is waterproof once cured.




Completely agree. 

Me and my father built a 26' boat that sits in the water 9 months of the year. We used West system epoxy but can't quite remember how the outer skin was treated. Think it was probably a few coats of the resin system followed up with 2 pack UV protecting varnish but would need to double check. The wood is completely protected from the water and stays bone dry unlike traditional boat building which relied on the boards to swell and the caulking in between for waterproofing.


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## yorkshirepudding (8 Jun 2015)

As Doug B said TREATEX is the simple answer. The late Mark Raby used to sell Treatex and recommended it highly. I think his wife Lisa has taken over sales of it. I know other wood turners who have used it successfully.


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## buzzby (8 Jun 2015)

Treatex looks interesting although i am not sure it can be bought online. Web sites says its only water resistant rather than proof. Could be a nice all in one as they do a stain as well.


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## Sheffield Tony (8 Jun 2015)

Probably obvious, but there is a rather important difference between a turned vessel and a boat or coopered barrel, which is end grain exposed to the liquid. Also the design of a barrel means that if the wood absorbs water the joints tighten. If tbe wood of a turned vase absorbs water it will swell and possibly further crack the finish.

I have made goblets and bowls that I can (and sometimes do) drink and eat from, but it's not the same as continually holding water. I have sealed some of them using beeswax melted in with a hot air gun, but still my ash goblet leaked ever so slightly .. but it had been used for mead, apple brandy and red wine over the course of a (very good  ) evening before it did.


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## CHJ (8 Jun 2015)

buzzby":1u3fpcoj said:


> Treatex looks interesting although i am not sure it can be bought online. Web sites says its only water resistant rather than proof. Could be a nice all in one as they do a stain as well.



I wonder why the manufacturer says this:-


> Treatex® Hardwax Oil. Protect and enhance the natural beauty of wood with Treatex Hardwax Oil. Suitable for all types of* internal joinery *including floors, stairs,



Could it be that it is not suitable for exterior or prolonged wet conditions.

Hard Wax oils are fine for something like a dry vase as far as handling is concerned, the level of gloss can be adjusted by the number of coats applied. 
They will certainly accept the odd water splash if wiped up fairly quickly before any has time to significantly penetrate any small pores but the occasional dressing with carnauba wax to fill any pores appearing due to wood movement is beneficial if in a kitchen environment for instance.

Personally I think the oils look better on darker woods, not so sure that Sycamore would look attractive treated with oil if it absorbs it to differing depths on long and end grain areas.

I'm sure that if the use of marine finishes or the like were an economical proposition for sealing Wooden Vases and Water containers we would regularly see them in the high street Homeware Fashion Houses.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jun 2015)

I can't speak for Treatex, but I have used Osmo and Fiddes. I wouldn't say either of them was anything like waterproof - water resistant, yes.


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## Doug B (8 Jun 2015)

yorkshirepudding":2qcrzt1q said:


> As Doug B said TREATEX is the simple answer. The late Mark Raby used to sell Treatex and recommended it highly. I think his wife Lisa has taken over sales of it. I know other wood turners who have used it successfully.



It was Mark I saw using Treatex, he said the manufacturer didn't recommend the oil for vases but he did & to prove it he had several vessels that he filled with various liquids that he left standing through out his demo & not a drop seeped through.


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## dickm (8 Jun 2015)

Doug B":1b77s30n said:


> he filled with various liquids that he left standing through out his demo & not a drop seeped through.



Isn't that the key - "during his demo"? As others have said, keeping liquid in for an hour or so is very different from keeping water in a vase for possibly a week or so.


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## CHJ (8 Jun 2015)

Doug B":1f3kl6j9 said:


> It was Mark I saw using Treatex, he said the manufacturer didn't recommend the oil for vases but he did & to prove it he had several vessels that he filled with various liquids that he left standing through out his demo & not a drop seeped through.



That's a big difference to leaving them for several days with a bunch of flowers in them though Doug, it won't take a visible leak to penetrate the wood sufficiently to spoil the external appearance of a polished Vase. That's apart from the damage that may result to any surface it's stood on because the base won't have the advantage of surface evaporation to dry it out.

Very few woods in my experience are enhanced in appearance by water mark stains.


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## nanscombe (8 Jun 2015)

What do they make the likes of fibreglass pond liners and boats out of?

Could that sort of resin be used to coat the inside.

Maybe just make a fibreglass tube to go inside to hold the water.


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## CHJ (8 Jun 2015)

nanscombe":by71psgg said:


> What do they make the likes of fibreglass pond liners and boats out of?
> 
> Could that sort of resin be used to coat the inside.
> 
> Maybe just make a fibreglass tube to go inside to hold the water.


Obviously it could, but practical, cost effective? I very much doubt it even in a production environment let alone a home/hobby workshop.

And if you give them to a friend or worst case sell them can you guarantee that every one is and will remain 100% waterproof?

Can you imagine that communication, "You told me it was waterproof, what are you going to do about sorting out the water mark on my French polished sideboard?"

And yes someone will not bother to put it on a water resistant base or move it to one side for a minute and forget it.


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## Jacob (8 Jun 2015)

nanscombe":2a9027u5 said:


> What do they make the likes of fibreglass pond liners and boats out of?
> 
> Could that sort of resin be used to coat the inside.
> 
> Maybe just make a fibreglass tube to go inside to hold the water.


Or better still a solid glass tube. An old jam jar, a drinking glass, a bottle, a test tube, etc.
Perhaps better to choose the glass first and make the turning to fit.
There doesn't seem to be much point in trying to make the wood itself water tight.

Mind you when I was in hospital we had these cardboard p|ssbottles - I should have looked closer to see what the secret was. I wasn't in the right frame of mind. :roll:


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## Paul Hannaby (9 Jun 2015)

+1 for Rustins plastic coating. A few coats of that will be waterproof.

I have also seen treatex and tested it myself and it does leave the surface of the wood waterproof but for how long is anyone's guess!


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Jun 2015)

Mind you when I was in hospital we had these cardboard p|ssbottles - I should have looked closer to see what the secret was. I wasn't in the right frame of mind. :roll:[/quote]

And if they're left overnight they leak like baskets. Damhikt.


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## Doug B (9 Jun 2015)

Chas, i believe Mark did quite a lot of testing with Treatex, he certainly used to fill one vessel with coke & one with coffee to show how the treated surface wasn't affected by either & also had one piece that had had several cycles in a dishwasher.
I can't remember all he said about Treatex but would suggest to the original poster that he buys some & does his own research particularly as the manufacturers don't make the claims for it that Mark did. Personally I would do this regardless of what anyone suggested if I was making such items for my own piece of mind.


Edit
A link to Marks page.
http://www.markrabywoodfinishing.co.uk/treetex

Taken from that page


"This product is manufactured on a base of natural sustainable raw materials: jojoba oil, linseed oil, sunflower oil, beeswax, candellia wax and carnauba wax. Complies with regulation DIN68861-1B. Resistance to water, wine, beer, coffee, tea, fizzy drinks, etc. Toy safe DIN EN 71-3. Certified anti-bacterial to standard JIS Z2801-2000. Meets with VOC emissions. This product is easy to apply and is a must for turners, carvers, furniture manufacturers and anyone who wants to protect wood against spills, splashes, and all manner of other ingressions. Put live flowers in a vase, floating candles in a platter, coke, coffee in a goblet. Tested by our team with 100% positive feedback. Available in gloss, satin and matte, we recommend thinning by 10% with Treatex Thinner (isoparaffin). Coverage per 100ml approx. 2m2. Supplied with instruction and safety data leaflet."

I imagine the part up to the "Put live flowers" is the manufacturers blurb & what is said after is based on his own experiences. For £8 it's got to be worth a punt to find out as if it is as good as he said if you're going to be making a number of vases.


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## CHJ (9 Jun 2015)

Well he certainly had confidence in it Doug, as you say personal tests with whatever species of wood you intend to use would be the sensible approach, note he said diluted, presume to get a deeper penetration of the product in the first instance.

I'm afraid I would not stick my neck out with such a claim for any item of mine entering the commercial market.


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## ColeyS1 (9 Jun 2015)

Didn't treatex use to have an exterior product once upon a time ? I'm sure I used it on a few jobs but think it got pulled for one reason or another :?


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## Jacob (9 Jun 2015)

CHJ":1pr0vq7u said:


> Well he certainly had confidence in it Doug, as you say personal tests with whatever species of wood you intend to use would be the sensible approach, note he said diluted, presume to get a deeper penetration of the product in the first instance.
> 
> I'm afraid I would not stick my neck out with such a claim for any item of mine entering the commercial market.


No doubt it will work in the short term but I'm certain it would fail with time.


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## yorkshirepudding (9 Jun 2015)

"I'm afraid I would not stick my neck out with such a claim for any item of mine entering the commercial market.
No doubt it will work in the short term but I'm certain it would fail with time."

As will we all. The answer I think is to suck it and see.


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## Bodrighy (9 Jun 2015)

I use Rustins for sealing goblets for use but would not recommend it for vases which would need to hold the water for a prolonged length of time. I full my goblets with water and leave for 24 hours to ensure that they are liquid proof but beyond that I wouldn't like to guarantee. ordinairy lacquers can leak as will oil and as Chas said the result is rarely pretty. If I want to make vases I use appropriate sized glass vessels, test tubes are good for small ones for example. 

pete


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## nicguthrie (13 Jun 2015)

I've a friend who's also a boating buff and very accomplished woodworker, he's always using, and recommending for use, West System Marine Epoxy.

It's a two part system that can be used with glass fibres for making custom fibreglass sheets, with filler granules as a filling compound, or as a paint fit totally waterproofing wood.

He uses it for repairs on his boat (he lived on it for years - it definitely doesn't leak!) And coats anything exposed to the water regularly with it. His rudder is ply and epoxy coating.

It'll make your turned goods waterproof, for sure, but it's not cheap, and like all epoxies it can be a pest to learn to work with, sticky, limited mixed usage time, etc.

For inner surfaces on large pots and vases, you could actually include a thin mat of fibreglass, moulded to the shape, to be certain that the expansion of the wood etc doesn't ever lead to weakening the epoxy.

All the best.

Nic.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (13 Jun 2015)

nicguthrie":1plq4wb3 said:


> I've a friend who's also a boating buff and very accomplished woodworker, he's always using, and recommending for use, West System Marine Epoxy.
> 
> It's a two part system that can be used with glass fibres for making custom fibreglass sheets, with filler granules as a filling compound, or as a paint fit totally waterproofing wood.
> 
> ...


That amounts to _making_ a fibreglass container _within_ a wooden one. Simpler to drop in a ready-made glass one (or plastic , stainless steel, pot, etc) if you can find one to fit, or turn the vase to fit one.


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## nicguthrie (15 Jun 2015)

Jacob":2b6yk237 said:


> That amounts to making a fibreglass container within a wooden one. Simpler to drop in a ready-made glass one (or plastic , stainless steel, pot, etc) if you can find one to fit, or turn the vase to fit one.


I realize that Jacob, but I really don't think it'd be necessary to go that far, I just suggested the fiberglass as the "Ultimate Option".

I'm pretty sure that the epoxy used as several good coats of paint would do the trick - I was just pointing out that he's got the ability to reinforce it, should he want to be super careful. Also, this is about vases he's already turned, so his options for re-shaping it to fit something he can find may be very limited. If they're really large decorative vases (I don't recall him giving dimensions) he might want the extra security against eventual scoring of the epoxy by algae and bacterial growth in the water.

I've never been a fan of inner linings that can be removed when there's another option, as there's almost always some leakage between seals, especially if a third party doesn't realize, and treats the whole thing as one unit, filling it at a tap or emptying it out etc. or even forgetting it altogether!

In the end, each to their own, I just thought it might be useful for someone on here to know of the stuff. My friend is an old school furniture maker and worked fitting out expensive yachts for a few years, so he's full of fantastic tips, but somewhat allergic to the internet!

Nic.


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