# Electrical Sockets inside cabinets



## Jetset (22 Jan 2008)

Hi all. I'm new to the forum but have been reading for several months. The info and links here are second to none.

I now have a question myself that I can't see an answer to:

I am making some alcove units soon and want to know if is it ok to mount the electrical sockets that would normally be in the wall, into the inside back or side walls of the cabinet?

I'm presuming it is, by using plastic drywall boxes -- the same backboxes that go into plasterboard walls. The trouble is, do the necessary cutouts weaken the cab? It will probably be made from 18mm MDF.

Any advice appreciated.

Incidentally, this is all part of a house refurb. If anyone's interested, I can post WIP pics. I know that I like viewing others.

Jim


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

No, you shouldn't do that. It is expressly deprecated in the wiring regs, I think. If not it is expressly deprecated in some guidance on the meaning of (one of) the regs. Either way, it is A Bad Thing.

The backboxes should be mounted on the building fabric, so you need to add appropriate spacers behind normal metal boxes and fix them to the wall.


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

Just re-read your post more carefully - it may depend on how your alcoves are constructed. If the MDF becomes the wall (building fabric) rather than part of fitted furniture (like a kitchen carcasse, which is the context in which the express deprecation is made if I recall properly) then it would be fine. There's obviously a grey line there.

I'd use metal boxes anyway, the end result is neater.


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## NeilO (22 Jan 2008)

Jetset, Welcome to the forum.
I woulld agree with Jake that if the stucture "becomes" the wall, it would be ok,
but if its a free standing unit theres always a danger of forgetting its electrically connected and if moved a chance of the live cable being pulled out of the socket :shock: 

As for WIP piccies , do you need to ask :lol: only notch up a couple more posts before adding piccies, or you will be caught in the spamulator (memory serves me its 5)


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## Jetset (22 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

To make myself a little clearer, the cabinet would be built-in and permanently fixed to the wall, as opposed to free-standing. It would be a base cabinet plus shelf unit above which would also be built-in.

Therefore, sockets in the brick wall behind would be obscured and hence my need to have them inside the base cabinet. I suppose I could make the base unit without any sides or back -- and use the brick walls for that.

Jim


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

Fitted furniture, like kitchen cabinets are covered.

The proper way to do it (if you want sides and backs to the cabinet), as I tried inadequately to explain, is to cut out the holes for the sockets in the back of your cupboard, then mount the metal boxes to the wall behind so that they stick out the right amount to project through the cut out, just shy of the inside surface of the cupboard by a mm or two. Then the cabinet can be fixed into place, and the electrical socket fitting can go over the top of the box from the inside of the cabinet, covering the hole.

That's my understanding of the regs, anyway.


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## Jetset (22 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the excellent advice. 



Jake":2i98y9hi said:


> Fitted furniture, like kitchen cabinets are covered.



Do you mean covered by the regs?

Searching other posts, recommended reading seems to be the _IEE On-Site Guide _and elsewhere I've seen a book called _The Electrician's Guide to the 16th Edition IEE Regulations_by John Whitfield recommended.

Jim


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## andrewm (22 Jan 2008)

I don't have the regs to hand but if the rear panel is close enough to the wall and permanent enough that putting the socket on the panel screwed into a metal box sunk into the wall behind is OK then would a surface mounted box be a better option?

Andrew


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## Jetset (22 Jan 2008)

Andrew

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to read up a bit before cutting in to anything!

Jim


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

I've found it. It is only guidance, not in the Regs, and, helpfully, it is in a bit which relates expressly to kitchens. It's in the IEE "Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations" and states that wiring accessories 
should be mounted on the building fabric and not on kitchen furniture.

As this isn't kitchen furniture, you can argue that it doesn't apply at all, and anyway the guidance isn't as authoritative as the IEE regs themselves, it is just a guide to good practice. 

So I'll backtrack. You probably could use dry-lining boxes if you want. I still wouldn't.

Surface mount boxes are an alternative, but they are much more fragile than metal boxes, and they are sized so that the fitting is the same size as the back-box. With a metal box the fitting is bigger than the box so it overlaps and hides the backbox and any hole around it.


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

andrewm":39dsi3yk said:


> putting the socket on the panel screwed into a metal box sunk into the wall behind



I wasn't suggesting that the box be sunk into the wall - they can be mounted so that they are spaced off the wall by however much is needed with some plywood or whatever behind them.


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## MoreFillerNeeded (22 Jan 2008)

First, I have to say I have no electricians qualifications, so don't take what I say as 'gospel'. However, I've seen several professionally fitted kitchens with the currently in-vogue island units, and many of them have power sockets fitted.

A visit to any large department store will also show you many display cabinets etc on sale that have lighting fixtures.

I would take the approach that you build your unit/furniture as a self-contained item, with secured wiring and all mounting boxes F-rated for the material that you are mounting them on, then connect the whole unit to the electrical supply by way of a 13A plug and switched socket on the wall of the building (this counts as a double pole disconnect and makes it very easy to isolate wahtever you're doing if something goes pear shaped.

Are surface mount boxes F-rated for MDF or chipboard? I've used them in the side of a kitchen cabinet before, but many years ago, before all of this became such a sensitive issue!


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

MoreFillerNeeded":1b2zbyh5 said:


> First, I have to say I have no electricians qualifications, so don't take what I say as 'gospel'.



That goes for all of us to post so far!

This place lost its most well known and helpful electrician to the other forum.


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## Anonymous (22 Jan 2008)

Jetset

I don't have my IEE regs to hand (they are at work and I am at home this week), but I do not recall anything in the regulations that would prevent what you propose. You need to watch the height of the socket from the floor as I seem to recall the regs stipulate between 150 and 450mm for the floor.

As far as reading matter goes, get hold of the proper regulations (IEE Wiring Regulations BS7671), not a book about them as they contain a multitude of design tables and cover everything you might need to know 

By the way, the 17th edition came into force and was made available for purchase on 1 January 2008.

PS the IEE changed its name to the IET last year and the IEEE is the American body, not the UK


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

The kitchen island is an interesting one. I guess an electrician can make a reasoned departure from that guidance. 

Even the Regs themselves as I understand it aren't mandatory, they are just persuasive in the sense that it is the IEE's collective wisdom and if you are going to depart from them, you'd better have some well thought out reasoned argument to do so).

I'm doing some Part P supervised works at the moment, so I am acutely (perhaps almost too) conscious of the Regs, guidance, and anything else the inspector might throw at me, and taking a very precautionary approach to everything. Not a bad discipline, given that IANAE.


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

Tony":bq7c7b74 said:


> By the way, the 17th edition came into force and was made available for purchase on 1 January 2008.



Have you got a copy yet? I can't get hold of one.

It doesn't come fully into force until June, IIRC.


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

Tony":2d8yasig said:


> You need to watch the height of the socket from the floor as I seem to recall the regs stipulate between 150 and 450mm for the floor.



I think it may be Part M of the Building Regs that you are thinking of - accessibility for wheelchair users, etc? If so, Part M says sockets and switches should be between 450mm and 1200mm off the floor (which would be an awkward clash of guidance otherwise!). But, Part M doesn't apply except to dwellings except for newbuilds, apart from in extensions and material alterations you shouldn't make accessibility provision worse than it was before the work was carried out (so your sockets shouldn't be lower than they were before, etc).


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## RogerS (22 Jan 2008)

I bought a couple of 'sparky' books recently and can thoroughly recommend them as they address real 'day-to-day' issues for anyone, like myself, needing to know the best and most pragmatic way of doing electrics correctly.

They are :

snags and solutions - part 1 earthing and bonding

snags and solutions - part 2 wiring systems.

Excellent reading.


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## andrewm (22 Jan 2008)

Tony":y5cc1b29 said:


> Jetset
> As far as reading matter goes, get hold of the proper regulations (IEE Wiring Regulations BS7671), not a book about them as they contain a multitude of design tables and cover everything you might need to know



For domestic use the On Site Guide is contains all the tables and formulae that I have needed. The full wiring regs is both large and expensive and includes a lot of stuff on industrial wiring and 3-phase work so is probably OTT for what we are talking about here.

Andrew


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## andrewm (22 Jan 2008)

Jake":38kyz0t2 said:


> Even the Regs themselves as I understand it aren't mandatory, they are just persuasive in the sense that it is the IEE's collective wisdom and if you are going to depart from them, you'd better have some well thought out reasoned argument to do so).



I think that they are now. You are right that they weren't but Part P basically says that to comply with Part P you must comply with IEE regs. Most of the actual Part P document deals just with the extra paperwork that is involved with compliance.

Andrew


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

As near as makes no difference in practice (i.e. adhere to the Regs unless you are an EE who knows what they are doing to the nth degree and can justify it), but technically, the Part P Approved Doc doesn't prescribe following the Regs, instead, it adopts the safety aims of the Regs, and just says that one way of demonstrating that you have met those aims is to follow the Regs. 

And, to add some more legalism, the Approved Doc is itself only guidance to meeting the requirements of Part P itself - the only actual legal requirement is the very short statement that reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations to protect from fire or injury.

None of the above is likely to carry any weight with a BC officer unless you are one of said EEs, so in practice you are right.


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## chippy1970 (22 Jan 2008)

I have fitted lots of kitchens with islands and a lot of those had 13 amp sockets in them, so they cannot be attached to the "building fabric".

My electrician is fully qualified and I have never heard him saying that you cannot put sockets in fitted furniture.

I have built loads of fitted furniture and every now and then I have had to fit sockets to them, not any more as the regs have changed and I have to use a sparks now.

You are right that you should NEVER fit sockets to free standing furniture.


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

As he is fully qualified and is competent to inspect and sign off his own work, he no doubt takes the view that he's entitled to depart from that bit of guidance in the circumstances.

That's one advantage of being fully qualified and competent to inspect and sign off your own work.


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## Anonymous (22 Jan 2008)

Jake":2myzxndq said:


> Tony":2myzxndq said:
> 
> 
> > You need to watch the height of the socket from the floor as I seem to recall the regs stipulate between 150 and 450mm for the floor.
> ...



No, not that. I looked at this two weeks ago as a friend is rewiring his house. I am pretty sure the distance was specified 150-450mm off the floor for electrical outlets on wall (unless above a worktop etc. natch).

Not got hold of the 17th edition yet Jake, but it is cheaper from the IET (£50) than from Amazon (£65) at present.

I checked the IET site and cannot find any indication of the regs implementation being held back until June - surely once published, they are effectively THE guidance? I would expect that non compliance leading to death or injury would be indefensible in court. 
In my professional opinion, one should effectively consider them a legal requirement when carrying out any electrical work




> BS:7671 (IEE Wiring Regulations, 17th Edition)
> The latest edition of BS:7671 Requirements for Electrical Installation (IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition ) was published in January 2008.
> 
> The Institution of Engineering and Technology plays a central role in the electrical installation industry in terms of standards and safety and is known for its independent and trusted voice in this sector. It manages the national committee JPEL/64 which prepares and updates the regulations for the safety of electrical installations in buildings and publishes the standard BS 7671:2008 - the IEE Wiring Regulations.
> ...


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

Tony":3e8hjt3q said:


> No, not that. I looked at this two weeks ago as a friend is rewiring his house. I am pretty sure the distance was specified 150-450mm off the floor for electrical outlets on wall (unless above a worktop etc. natch).



Ah, OK, there would be a interesting clash then. Interested in the ref if you can find it Tony, as I'm about to get inspected (but I think I comply anyway, mostly).



> Not got hold of the 17th edition yet Jake, but it is cheaper from the IET (£50) than from Amazon (£65) at present.



Amazon is where I looked, so thanks for the tip.



> I checked the IET site and cannot find any indication of the regs implementation being held back until June - surely once published, they are effectively THE guidance? I would expect that non compliance leading to death or injury would be indefensible in court.



There is a transition period, I think, in which design may or must comply (can't recall as it doesn't apply to what I'm doing, the design having been done last year) but in which installation may be to 16th edition standards.




> In my professional opinion, one should effectively consider them a legal requirement when carrying out any electrical work



And in mine, I agree, _effectively_ - you'd risk being in severe evidential difficulties (in proving that you were acting reasonably, or in accordance with a substantial body of professional opinion) if you departed from them. 

Obviously the guidance I brought up is a long step down from there, but it still would carry (less) evidential weight so you would have to justify departure.


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## BradNaylor (22 Jan 2008)

Jetset":1udn919i said:


> I am making some alcove units soon and want to know if is it ok to mount the electrical sockets that would normally be in the wall, into the inside back or side walls of the cabinet?




I come up against this problem all the time when fitting alcove units - which seem to be about half my business these days!

My solution is simple, and has been approved by my fully qualified electrician mate.

I cut a hole in the back or side of the cabinet slightly smaller than the flush fitting socket on the wall. Then unscrew the socket from its box and pass it through the hole in the cabinet side/back. This can normally be done without disconnecting any wires. It's best to turn the leccy off though!

Then, using extra long screws obtained from a local electrical wholesaler, screw the socket back into the original box in the wall until it is tight up to the inside of the cabinet.

The result is very neat and tidy.

As has already been said - this kind of solution is only for fitted furniture, not freestanding.

As far as kitchen cabinets and islands are concerned, I simply do not get involved. Get a Part P electrician in.

Cheers
Dan


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## chicken_house_man (22 Jan 2008)

It's now 18 years since I worked as an electrician. What we used to do and I see no reason why it shouldn't still be accept is you use metal boxes with good quality flexible conduit, properly put together it provides enough protection and strain reflex. The other stuff we occasionaly used was wire braided flex. Again with the proper termination glands it provided all the regs required.

One of the main issues is having terminals in a non flamable enclosed box.
Plasterboard boxes would probably only fill the spec when fitted in plasterboard. ANother is that the outer sheath should be within the box so no insulation shows, again not always easy with a plasterboard box at the best of times


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## DavidE (22 Jan 2008)

Tony":lhx66wdo said:


> I checked the IET site and cannot find any indication of the regs implementation being held back until June - surely once published, they are effectively THE guidance? I would expect that non compliance leading to death or injury would be indefensible in court.
> In my professional opinion, one should effectively consider them a legal requirement when carrying out any electrical work



Just to pick up on this point... If you download the index from the IET site. 
IET index link

The scope of the new regs states this:

BS 7671:2008 Requirements for Electrical Installations was issued on 1st January 2008 and is intended to come
into effect on 1st July 2008. Installations designed after 30th June 2008 are to comply with BS 7671:2008.
The Regulations apply to the design, erection and verification of electrical installations, also additions and
alterations to existing installations. Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier
editions of the Regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean
that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading.

As others have said there is the grace period after publication - as companies individuals need to take the City and Guilds courses/exams depending how long it is since they got their 16th.

Cheers
David


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## Jake (22 Jan 2008)

Ah OK, that's why I knew it didn't apply to my current stuff, because it isn't even stuff _installed_ after 1st July, it is stuff _designed_ after 1st July.


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