# Chisel gets dull whilst working up through the grits



## Snettymakes (14 May 2021)

I am bad at sharpening, and have undertaken making a dovetailed box, which by the time it is complete will require me to have become "passable" at sharpening.

I have 600, 2000, 4000, 8000 grit wet stones. I can freehand a bevel on the 600 grit that feels sharp, but when I step it up to the 2000 grit with a microbevel, it appears to dull the edge more than sharpen it.

I'm rather hoping this is a well understood boo boo that I'm making and somebody can give me a clear instruction for how to, um, not do it. I have of course read many instructions, and watched many videos on the topic, but the skill still eludes me.


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

Try stopping at the 600 and going straight to a strop, a leather one that is and not a hissy fit.

Here comes the shocker......Don't bother with the micro bevel.

Once you get a sharp chisel from that you could add in the 2000 and then strop and still don't bother with the micro bevel.


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

Or you could try alchemy, all sorts of techniques, potions and magik sharpening incantations.


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## Snettymakes (14 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> a leather one that is and not a hissy fit.



I have already tried the latter.

Tbh I have always looked at the leather strops as being a bit unnecessary, like.. who needs it THAT sharp? I should get one and find out for myself though I suppose.


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## Jacob (14 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Try stopping at the 600 and going straight to a strop, a leather one that is and not a hissy fit.
> 
> Here comes the shocker......Don't bother with the micro bevel.
> 
> Once you get a sharp chisel from that you could add in the 2000 and then strop and still don't bother with the micro bevel.


Agree.
Just miss out most of those grits. If you are free-handing then just do a little and often, it's easier and the thing stays sharper longer. It's like sharpening a pencil - you don't wait for it to become really blunt you keep touching it up
Paul Sellars does it neatly with just three grits and no "micro" bevels. Just two grits and a strop is even better
PS grit sizes mean nothing to me I've got coarse, medium and fine. I also strop on my palm which somehow feels as though it's doing something but I'm not 100% convinced


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

I made mine from a 1 foot long bit of a leather belt, glued it to a bit of wood and use any old polish paste or compound.

They make all the difference if you want a chisel that shaves hair.

And YOU need it that sharp.


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## Argus (14 May 2021)

Definitely a fully formed micro-bevel, followed by a carefully controlled and precise back bevel. The "Ruler Trick"is an essential technique........ I won't go on!


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## Jacob (14 May 2021)

Argus said:


> Definitely a fully formed micro-bevel, followed by a carefully controlled and precise back bevel. The "Ruler Trick"is an essential technique........ I won't go on!


 The ruler trick is a good one but it's easier without the ruler.
I call it "the without a ruler trick".
But don't go there Snettymakes, that way madness lies!


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

It does however make for a longer and more challenging thread, especially when North America wakes up.


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## Just4Fun (14 May 2021)

Anyway, the ruler trick is surely for plane blades, not chisels.


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## Jacob (14 May 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> Anyway, the ruler trick is surely for plane blades, not chisels.


Either, if necessary. Without a ruler too!


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

This bloke doesn't need a ruler.


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## Droogs (14 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I made mine from a 1 foot long bit of a leather belt, glued it to a bit of wood and use any old polish paste or compound.
> 
> They make all the difference if you want a chisel that shaves hair.
> 
> And YOU need it that sharp.


Depends on the use of the chisel:
Mortice - no just 600 freehand and chop
whacking it chisel - all freehand 600 if really dull then 1000 and a quick 1200 and then some auto sol. all given about a dozen quick strokes
Pairing chisel - freehand thorugh grits to 4000 and then a tiny freehand microbevel by lifting the handle at the end of the stoke on the strop


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

Carving gouge, paring chisel, bench chisel, framing chisel & planes of all sexes:

Red India & WD40
Slate & WD40
Strop with green compound

No back bevel, no micro bevel, no ruler.


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## Cabinetman (14 May 2021)

I know I shouldn’t!
Just an ordinary combination oilstone, don’t know what the grit is probably about 400, when the chisel gets blunt a bit of a rub at one end of the stone turn it over and rub the back, wipe it on a bit of rag and get back to work. I don’t know how you people ever get anything done.


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## Daniel2 (14 May 2021)




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## Argus (14 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> ...........Just an ordinary combination oilstone, don’t know what the grit is probably about 400, when the chisel gets blunt a bit of a rub at one end of the stone turn it over and rub the back, wipe it on a bit of rag and get back to work. I don’t know how you people ever get anything done.



Exactly!

But what to do with all the diamond stones, abrasive papers, exotic glass plates and infallible honing guides?

There will be unemployment and great lamentations amongst the merchants and vendors. Hunger and pestilence........


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> Anyway, the ruler trick is surely for plane blades, not chisels.


Realistically it takes off so little it'd make no difference on a chisel.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I know I shouldn’t!
> Just an ordinary combination oilstone, don’t know what the grit is probably about 400, when the chisel gets blunt a bit of a rub at one end of the stone turn it over and rub the back, wipe it on a bit of rag and get back to work. I don’t know how you people ever get anything done.


Much the same with a 1200 water stone.


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## CaptainBudget (14 May 2021)

(here we go...)

Go for a 600/800/1000 grit stone of your choice (depends what is commercially available for you, mine's a 400 & 1000 double-sided diamond stone). You only need the one grit. Then strop with leather & compound until shiny. I admit I use a basic honing guide (don't trust myself freehand and don't have time to learn), but in 5 mins I have a razor sharp blade that shaves hair and I'm back to work.

I cut dovetails & tenons in softwood for 99.9% of my work, the blade HAS to be razor sharp or it just crushes the fibres. I only use a 25 degree primary bevel and the actual cutting edge I sharpen is 30 degrees, I don't bother with a tertiary micro-bevel, never seen the point.

I will go for the 400-grit side of my stone if the edge is particularly rough (i.e. a hard knot has chipped the edge), but otherwise use my 1000 exclusively.

That strop makes one hell of a difference, and by cannibalising an old leather belt and an offcut they cost 10/6...


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## Sgian Dubh (14 May 2021)

Here's how I do it. Start by, er ..........

Ahh, screw it ... I can't be ar-sed, and I'll leave it to all the usual adversaries, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Jacob (14 May 2021)

Could it be called "woke sharpening"?


Argus said:


> ...
> 
> But what to do with all the diamond stones, abrasive papers, exotic glass plates and infallible honing guides?
> 
> There will be unemployment and great lamentations amongst the merchants and vendors. Hunger and pestilence........


Haven't used a jig in years but have accumulated a few too many stones.
Counter productive - better to perfect your technique with a small range of options rather than carrying on endlessly experimenting. Sold quite a few surplus bits now.


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## Garden Shed Projects (14 May 2021)

An Indian oilstone with a medium and fine grade with strop across the hand was good for me back in the olden days (the 90's). Although it seems that good quality oilstones are not available any more.

After coming back to wood working I now have a 400 and 1000 grit diamonds with a leather strop and they are as sharp as I would ever need. I started to use a honing guide but I got my hand back in and do it free hand. A bit of leather at 100mm x 200mm cost me £3.50 from ebay delivered and really does make a difference.

I have not tried, so probably shouldn't comment, but I cannot understand what the waterstones at 2000 grit and above can add as I work with oak and beech regularly with no issue..


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## Argus (14 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Could it be called "woke sharpening"?



Woke? What does that mean? Explanation needed. please!



Jacob said:


> Haven't used a jig in years but have accumulated a few too many stones.



Me too; somebody gave me an 'Eclipse' jiggery-thing once...... I think that I must have passed it on. I did try it - honest. I couldn't get on with it. It took too long to re-establish the previous bevel and then getting a wire-edge........

I learned the 'drop-hand' method as a lad and it's served me well. Up and down the stone a dozen or so times, drop the hand at the last moment - use a couple of grits if necessary then on to a strop. back to cutting in a minute or two.

Apologies to the OP........ sharpening threads always go this way.


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## Garden Shed Projects (14 May 2021)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> An Indian oilstone with a medium and fine grade with strop across the hand was good for me back in the olden days (the 90's). Although it seems that good quality oilstones are not available any more.
> 
> After coming back to wood working I now have a 400 and 100 grit diamonds with a leather strop and they are as sharp as I would ever need. I started to use a honing guide but I got my hand back in and do it free hand. A bit of leather at 100mm x 200mm cost me £3.50 from ebay delivered and really does make a difference.
> 
> I have not tried, so probably shouldn't comment, but I cannot understand what the waterstones at 2000 grit and above can add as I work with oak and beech regularly with no issue..


 It should read 400 and 1000 grit


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2021)

You can edit it.


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## EddyCurrent (14 May 2021)

After sharpening I use a 6" cotton mop on my grinder with green compound to hone the edge, it gets very sharp after that.


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

The Woke thread is that way  ☞


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## thetyreman (14 May 2021)

back of chisels should always be flat, the ruler trick is for plane blades, it's much easier and faster to not bother with micro bevels and sharpen it as one bevel freehand, always use a strop, about 30 strokes usually does it for me.


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Here's how I do it. Start by, er ..........
> 
> Ahh, screw it ... I can't be ar-sed, and I'll leave it to all the usual adversaries, ha, ha. Slainte.



Do it...

Do it...

Do it!!


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## JohnPW (14 May 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> I am bad at sharpening, and have undertaken making a dovetailed box, which by the time it is complete will require me to have become "passable" at sharpening.
> 
> I have 600, 2000, 4000, 8000 grit wet stones. I can freehand a bevel on the 600 grit that feels sharp, but when I step it up to the 2000 grit with a microbevel, it appears to dull the edge more than sharpen it.
> 
> I'm rather hoping this is a well understood boo boo that I'm making and somebody can give me a clear instruction for how to, um, not do it. I have of course read many instructions, and watched many videos on the topic, but the skill still eludes me.



Maybe the 2000 is rounding over the edge, I would try strokes in one direction only on the 2000, pulling away from the edge.


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

Snetty- hone the flat bevel of the chisel with any of your stones, then partially polish the back with your 8k stone, and then polish the bevel with the 8k stone a few degrees steeper than the primary bevel until the shine goes absolutely to the tip. You may perhaps be looking to make a shiny stripe about half a mm in size.

Take a picture of the bevel then as close as you can get it to focus with your phone and show it here.

Ignore everyone else's advice for now, we're going to make sure your chisel edge isn't crumbling on the fine stones (defective). If it won't hold the edge under sharpening pressure then you're banging your head against a wall.


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

Do it before Jacob gets here, too, or he'll show us some windows or something and this thread will go to pot.


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## sammy.se (14 May 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> I am bad at sharpening, and have undertaken making a dovetailed box, which by the time it is complete will require me to have become "passable" at sharpening.
> 
> I have 600, 2000, 4000, 8000 grit wet stones. I can freehand a bevel on the 600 grit that feels sharp, but when I step it up to the 2000 grit with a microbevel, it appears to dull the edge more than sharpen it.
> 
> I'm rather hoping this is a well understood boo boo that I'm making and somebody can give me a clear instruction for how to, um, not do it. I have of course read many instructions, and watched many videos on the topic, but the skill still eludes me.



As a relative newbie of sharpening, I had *exactly *the same issue as you, and in the end it came down to my freehand technique. As soon as I made a honing guide (two bits of wood, and two screws, clamping the blade/chisel in between) I was getting extremely sharp blades all through the grits. I have an inexpensive honing guide now and it does the job fine.

Yes yes, I know people will say just do freehand,* but just do whatever works for you! *I was rounding over my edge when going freehand. maybe one day I'll perfect it. 

Re stropping - It makes a lot of difference, and really gets the blade sharp. I strop on MDF, a bit of denim, and leather taped to the MDF (basically, I make a strop every time I find a rag). I use car polish on the strops. Works a treat.


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## Jacob (14 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> The Woke thread is that way  ☞


It's OK I was only joking. 
Gone a bit quiet over there maybe I should pop over and wake them up - shout "WAKEY WOKEY" through the letter box or something?


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

sammy.se said:


> As a relative newbie of sharpening, I had *exactly *the same issue as you, and in the end it came down to my freehand technique. As soon as I made a honing guide (two bits of wood, and two screws, clamping the blade/chisel in between) I was getting extremely sharp blades all through the grits. I have an inexpensive honing guide now and it does the job fine.



I've said it before often - people mail me tools to fix ..who knows, five to ten times a year? None that I've received with a single bevel sharpening have ever had uniform fine scratches at the edge in a way that the edge was completed. Many have obviously had a lot of physical work spent on honing the whole bevel, but there is no means for the person doing the work to see that the fine stone got to the edge. 

There are two things that have to happen in sharpening aside from getting workable geometry - damage or wear needs to be removed, and fine scratches need to remain where the cutting will happen. 

A guide is infinitely useful for someone just starting out to get an idea what it feels like for something to be sharp, as I'm guessing 90% of claims of a tool being defective or nicking easily, etc, are because of incomplete sharpening or sharpening with poor geometry. 

I don't use a guide, but when I started I did. I'm glad I did. It caused my freehand sharpening to be far better because I understood the value of getting the fine finish at the edge of the tool and not just back from it.


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Here's how I do it. Start by, er ..........
> 
> Ahh, screw it ... I can't be ar-sed, and I'll leave it to all the usual adversaries, ha, ha. Slainte.



Work the back of the tool first on something pedestrian like an india stone, then work the bevel, then work the back again and strop. 

....I'm trying to do my Richard impersonation but won't be so rude as to fish out prior conversations and cut and paste your words


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

(raffo brought me a couple of tools that were sharpened all the way to the edge, but he didn't mail them - just in case he reads the comment above!! It was kind of a shock as I'd never seen it before, and I'm sure the experienced workers who try to do cabinet work with planes all or nearly all sharpen well, but most people bringing me tools are not in that phase - they're bringing tools that don't work but seem like they should. )

This conversation about using a microbevel to get an idea of a finished edge isn't religion, it's about results and solving problems for someone starting out. Rule 1 of sharpening is that you have to actually complete the job, and then work from there. I don't use a jig because I can complete the job without it reasonably well. But when I started, I couldn't initially. I watched Charlesworth's video and his method works wonderfully but takes too long for me to tolerate day to day. It worked perfectly, though - and served its purpose.


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's OK I was only joking.
> Gone a bit quiet over there maybe I should pop over and wake them up - shout "WAKEY WOKEY" through the letter box or something?




Watch out though, they may get shirty.


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## okeydokey (14 May 2021)

Whatever sharpening method is used I would strongly recommend honing (stropping) the sharp edge (pulling towards you only) using green polishing compound similar to that sold by Axminster at only £3.88 a stick. My honing block is about 10"x3" -- a strip of leather offcut ex (nearby shop) spray glued (rough side upwards) to a 11/2" thick block of hardwood offcut (that what I had hand) . It really touches up the sharpness and puts a mirror like polish after only a few strokes.
I put it in the vice to stop it travelling - also used on the back of plane irons and chisels to finish the smoothing/levelling process.


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## Sgian Dubh (14 May 2021)

D_W said:


> Do it...
> 
> Do it...
> 
> Do it!!


I'd rather not. I can't be bothered with all the dicking backwards and forwards after I say my piece. Slainte.


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## Sgian Dubh (14 May 2021)

D_W said:


> Work the back of the tool first on something pedestrian like an india stone, then work the bevel, then work the back again and strop.


Ah, okay, you've sort of forced me into declaring my hand, but everyone has to bear in mind that there's nothing clever or innovative about my method.

But, it's basically as you say, i.e., start with the flat side of the tool (bench chisel or plane iron) and work that a bit making sure I keep the tool flat on the stone, for which I use either the fine side of a combination oilstone or my 800(?) grit ceramic stone, whichever is to hand, then work the honing angle at a guesstimate of about 30º, then go back to the flat side again to take off the wire edge, and finally a few back pulled strokes alternating between the honing angle and the flat side, and then a bit of flipping of the tool on the palm of my hand. That's good enough for 90% of my sharpening, and I never do anything more than this for regular bench chisels.

If I want a plane iron especially sharp for a particular task, I omit the palm flipping just mentioned, and repeat the procedure above on my ultrafine ceramic stone, and nowadays (based primarily upon your writings on the topic) I stick a polishing mop in a drill, add a bit of polishing compound if needed and give both the flat face and the honing angled side a swift five or ten second buff each. It seems to work pretty well.

I like to keep sharpening of my chisels and plane irons to the 'Sharp'n'Go procedure, aka the KISS principle, and I have to admit I've never used a guide, but I'm not against guide use if that helps others to achieve success. I've just not used one myself, but that's probably because not a single person in the workshops I started out at used one either: and if I'd ever got one out I'd have probably been jeered at and called some kind of effeminate limp wristed pansy, or worse, along with other mildly humiliating name calling accompanied by somewhat irritating and underhandedly secretive sabotage of my work or toolkit. That sort of stuff was considered gentle workshop banter back then in the dark ages, but it probably wouldn't translate well into our more recent caring and inclusive times, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

I'm going to have to ask, but why do you think an India stone is pedestrian ?

It reeks of snobbery.


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## Jacob (14 May 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> ....I have to admit I've never used a guide, but I'm not against guide use if that helps others to achieve success. I've just not used one myself, but that's probably because not a single person in the workshops I started out at used one either: and if I'd ever got one out I'd have probably been jeered at and called some kind of effeminate limp wristed pansy, or worse, along with other mildly humiliating name calling accompanied by somewhat irritating and underhandedly secretive sabotage of my work or toolkit. That sort of stuff was considered gentle workshop banter back then in the dark ages, but it probably wouldn't translate well into our more recent caring and inclusive times, ha, ha. Slainte.


The jig thing for me was nothing to do with chest beating - I just found it all so much faster/easier without, though it took some time to rediscover this simple fact.
Otherwise I do much the same, and occasionally polish on a ply disc with autosol on the out-board end of lathe.


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

I like india stones. Quite often, the pedestrian stuff is better than the snooty stuff. The pedestrian stanley 4 is probably the best smoothing plane ever made.


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## Cabinetman (14 May 2021)

Thanks Richard and Jacob, although I’ve never felt the need to strop I think I can manage a bit of plywood on the end of my lathe, i’ll give it a try, says Ian as if he’s being sucked into the maelstrom of sharpening wizardry and expecting to be spat out broken and twisted and full of the Evangelical zeal that inhabits large proportions of the woodworking fraternity.


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## Cabinetman (14 May 2021)

D_W said:


> I like india stones. Quite often, the pedestrian stuff is better than the snooty stuff. The pedestrian stanley 4 is probably the best smoothing plane ever made.


 Absolutely right. I wouldn’t be without my Stanley Nr4's, I use virtually nothing else. Fettled a good bit of course.


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Ah, okay, you've sort of forced me into declaring my hand, but everyone has to bear in mind that there's nothing clever or innovative about my method.
> 
> But, it's basically as you say, i.e., start with the flat side of the tool (bench chisel or plane iron) and work that a bit making sure I keep the tool flat on the stone, for which I use either the fine side of a combination oilstone or my 800(?) grit ceramic stone, whichever is to hand, then work the honing angle at a guesstimate of about 30º, then go back to the flat side again to take off the wire edge, and finally a few back pulled strokes alternating between the honing angle and the flat side, and then a bit of flipping of the tool on the palm of my hand. That's good enough for 90% of my sharpening, and I never do anything more than this for regular bench chisels.
> 
> ...



Looks good to me! The buff does wonderful things for the edge - twice at one time. Once to remove the bit that fails first and then causes subsequent failure, and second with that, to impart the most wonderful uniform polish without deflecting the edge. 

I don't use the guide, as mentioned- except on a straight razor. It's hard to hone a straight razor without the guide - because it's part of the razor (the spine width is set at manufacture as a built in guide). But I'm fine with everything until someone asserts that you can't get a good edge without one, or someone else asserts that you can't sharpen with one. I like to save the jeering for people who bring a toolbox to the woods for their chainsaws instead of looking at the angle guide on the top of the tooth and pushing a file parallel to it. My dad's in that category - he hauls some thing around that looks like a dental contraption and requires two hands and a vise. The consequence is that he puts off sharpening and then punishes his saw for it.


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## Adam W. (14 May 2021)

D_W said:


> I like india stones. Quite often, the pedestrian stuff is better than the snooty stuff. The pedestrian stanley 4 is probably the best smoothing plane ever made.


Fair enough, you can't help yourself.

Maybe you should just call a spade a spade instead, then people wouldn't take it the wrong way.


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## D_W (14 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Fair enough, you can't help yourself.
> 
> Maybe you should just call a spade a spade instead, then people wouldn't take it the wrong way.



My car is pedestrian, my house is pedestrian, my favorite steel is pedestrian, my favorite stones are pedestrian. You need to look through a different lens once in a while and stop blaming other people for jumping to conclusions.


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## JAW911 (15 May 2021)

+1 for using a strop. I have been woodcarving regularly for a few months and following Doug Linker’s advice (YouTube carver) have never used a stone on my knives. Just strop every so often and look after your knives. They are ‘scary sharp’. Obviously if the blade gets damaged then stones are needed. For my woodworking chisels and irons I have a Tormek but I always use the strop wheel afterwards with green compound followed by a leather strop by hand with same. If I can shave the back of my hand it’s ready for use.


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## Jacob (15 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Thanks Richard and Jacob, although I’ve never felt the need to strop I think I can manage a bit of plywood on the end of my lathe, i’ll give it a try, says Ian as if he’s being sucked into the maelstrom of sharpening wizardry and expecting to be spat out broken and twisted and full of the Evangelical zeal that inhabits large proportions of the woodworking fraternity.


If you do the ply disc thing it helps to have an artists palette knife to spread the autosol. Nothing else is quite as effective. You spread it thinly and keep picking up blobs to spread, or it gets flung off the disc. Slow speed is good.
Shape the edge of the disc into a half round and use it for inside gouges


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## Lons (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's OK I was only joking.
> Gone a bit quiet over there maybe I should pop over and wake them up - shout "WAKEY WOKEY" through the letter box or something?


If that's what you were doing during your campaign door knocking it's no wonder you didn't get a result.  
Only joking


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## sometimewoodworker (15 May 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> I am bad at sharpening, and have undertaken making a dovetailed box, which by the time it is complete will require me to have become "passable" at sharpening.
> 
> I have 600, 2000, 4000, 8000 grit wet stones. I can freehand a bevel on the 600 grit that feels sharp, but when I step it up to the 2000 grit with a microbevel, it appears to dull the edge more than sharpen it.
> 
> I'm rather hoping this is a well understood boo boo that I'm making and somebody can give me a clear instruction for how to, um, not do it. I have of course read many instructions, and watched many videos on the topic, but the skill still eludes me.



Your experience suggests to me that freehand isn’t a good choice for you. 

I know that I don’t have the skill to do freehand and can’t be bothered to gain it. Whatever people say who do have the skill it is less than easy to gain and requires constant practice to maintain. 

So my answer is to totally avoid all of that Trouble and buy a high quality honing guide. I know that I will actually get sharp and a constant micro bevel. 

If you are only doing chisels then you can get a little record guide


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## Blaidd-Drwg (15 May 2021)

I second the honing guide. My experience level is that my sharpening sessions are few and far between because I do furniture restorations a majority of the time. I tried for years to get the muscle memory needed to do freehand sharpening and all I ended up with was a new ulcer.

I've used several types of honing/sharpening guides with water or oil stones and have not looked back. Someday if my furniture making becomes a larger part of my work I'll try freehanding again, but now I use the Veritas honing guide (but that is a luxury I only recently gave myself). Before the Veritas I had a couple of cheap honing guides and layout lines to show how far the blade should protrude in order to get the angle I needed.


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## Jacob (15 May 2021)

As ever I'd say that the skill level needed for freehand sharpening is exaggerated.
How on earth did they manage for 1000s of years before the honing jig fashion kicked in only 40 years ago or so? It was usually learned in a few hours in week one.
Woodwork itself is much more demanding than sharpening a few chisels, which is about as easy as sharpening a pencil.
I think the jigs make it more difficult and the idea that sharpening is difficult becomes a self confirming - to be rapidly followed by purchase of a different jigs, alternative stones, glass plates, expensive diamond plates, and £100s spent in no time for no real benefit.


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## Adam W. (15 May 2021)

If I had a honing guide, I'd never be able to find it.


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## Just4Fun (15 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> If I had a honing guide, I'd never be able to find it.


Yeah, tell me about it. I have a honing guide and I usually use it but sometimes I cannot readily find it so on those occasions I sharpen freehand.

It remains a mystery how I can find my sharpening stones yet not find my honing guide. A related mystery is how I later find the guide just next to my stones.


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## Jacob (15 May 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> Yeah, tell me about it. I have a honing guide and I usually use it but sometimes I cannot readily find it so on those occasions I sharpen freehand.
> 
> It remains a mystery how I can find my sharpening stones yet not find my honing guide. A related mystery is how I later find the guide just next to my stones.


I've got two in a drawer. I can honestly say I have not used either of them for years but I know where they are. Well where they were last time I looked.


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## TheTiddles (15 May 2021)

Sounds like a technique problem to me, try practicing more till the problem isn’t there or use a grinding guide and get there now.

Aidan


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## sometimewoodworker (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> As ever I'd say that the skill level needed for freehand sharpening is exaggerated.
> How on earth did they manage for 1000s of years before the honing jig fashion kicked in only 40 years ago or so? It was usually learned in a few hours in week one.
> Woodwork itself is much more demanding than sharpening a few chisels, which is about as easy as sharpening a pencil.
> I think the jigs make it more difficult and the idea that sharpening is difficult becomes a self confirming - to be rapidly followed by purchase of a different jigs, alternative stones, glass plates, expensive diamond plates, and £100s spent in no time for no real benefit.


That says more about you and your usage and skill than it does about the usefulness of honing guides

My personal usage of sharpening is quite likely to be once a year at most so I use a veritas guide and get perfect results.

How they worked for thousands of years did not include all the various power tools that I have and use, so sharpening was a much more necessary and frequent occurrence.

as to honing jigs, they have been in use for very much longer than you imagine. Professional woodworkers probably didn’t use them but others certainly did. 

Your viewpoint seems to be extremely restricted and blinkered


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## D_W (15 May 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Your viewpoint seems to be extremely restricted and blinkered



Your scenario sounds completely reasonable. I don't think you'll make a dent trying to explain something to someone who knows so much that they can't learn more.


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## sometimewoodworker (15 May 2021)

D_W said:


> Your scenario sounds completely reasonable. I don't think you'll make a dent trying to explain something to someone who knows so much that they can't learn more.


I agree, it’s looking more and more likely that yet another “plonk” is coming. 

That BTW is showing how long I’ve been using computers and bbs SW, since long before the internet existed.


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## Ttrees (15 May 2021)

Hard to comment with so little info of what might be the case
A photo can often be worth a thousand words.

A finishing hone that's at least the same height or lower than the others might help, If it is the case that things are the other way round.
I have quite a tall sharpening station around tablesaw height and that would be the case,
would likely be less of an issue if it were lower like Cosman's.

That might be the extreme end of things, but it clearly works for him,
Looks about sawhorse height, I wonder if there's any mention of that in old texts?

A bit stoopy looking for me personally, but then again at TS height a 
bit wristy if one was doing an Alan Peters 10 irons at a time job.
Not getting into what counts as too shelfy!

Tom


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## Jacob (15 May 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> ....
> 
> Your viewpoint seems to be extremely restricted and blinkered


Restricted yes and am keeping it that way, but not blinkered - it's based on 60 years of woodworking experience and having tried most things!


> as to honing jigs, they have been in use for very much longer than you imagine. Professional woodworkers probably didn’t use them but others certainly did.


Yes they have but only as a gadget for amateurs. Old ones are quite rare to non existent.


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## sometimewoodworker (15 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Restricted yes and am keeping it that way, but not blinkered - it's based on 60 years of woodworking experience and having tried most things!


I have no problem with you doing things your way that’s absolutely your prerogative. But totally blinked by giving a response that takes no account of different skill, experience, interests than yours, phrasing it as “THE CORRECT WAY” rather than the way that works for you, though probably not for many others. 

As to honing guides it’s likely that many would have been home made and not recognised as being more than just scraps so not preserved, however even with a cursory search I've found them dated at least 110 years old so forgive me for doubting your claims.


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## MadMental (15 May 2021)

Why not buy a *TREND FTS/F4T Fast Track Sharpener ?You get a good deal at d+m tools I have always been rubbish at sharpening My workshops full of Jigs Waterstone the lot and I always get the same results as you so I bought one of these Man they really do work and my chissels are great* Ive been wood workin 45 years *really is great *


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## doctor Bob (15 May 2021)

Interesting thread, just read it, like deja vu for some reason. It seems predictable how sharpening threads go.


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## Daniel2 (15 May 2021)




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## Argus (15 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Interesting thread, just read it, like deja vu for some reason. It seems predictable how sharpening threads go.



Absolutely......  it's straining the limits of politeness but still going strong. There's plenty of mileage in it yet.

Saturday afternoon, half-time in the cup final and I've just got a beer and caught up with the latest.


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## D_W (15 May 2021)

We have only touched a couple of posts that claim you can't get any work done if you don't do it someone's specific way....I mean, once we get that started, there's a lot left in the tank, because it's usually said by people who do really crude work.


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## Argus (15 May 2021)

Football's back on again.
Second half..... can't see Leicester winning this one.


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## Jacob (15 May 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> I have no problem with you doing things your way that’s absolutely your prerogative. But totally blinked by giving a response that takes no account of different skill, experience, interests than yours, phrasing it as “THE CORRECT WAY” rather than the way that works for you, though probably not for many others.


I've never ever said anything about “THE CORRECT WAY” it's not what I think. What I have said is the easiest, quickest and cheapest way. That's all really. Don't know why it's a problem.


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## Cabinetman (15 May 2021)

D_W said:


> We have only touched a couple of posts that claim you can't get any work done if you don't do it someone's specific way....I mean, once we get that started, there's a lot left in the tank, because it's usually said by people who do really crude work.


 Oh God, if we start going down the path of having to prove our woodworking capabilities before we are allowed to comment on sharpening techniques that will close the whole thing down completely and then where would we get some entertainment


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## doctor Bob (15 May 2021)

Argus said:


> Football's back on again.
> Second half..... can't see Leicester winning this one.



Funny old game though, I think Vardy is just one of those players who just needs one chance.


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## doctor Bob (15 May 2021)

Hey up, great goal


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## Argus (15 May 2021)

It was a beaut, Bob!

I'm probably going to eat my words........


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## Blackswanwood (15 May 2021)

D_W said:


> We have only touched a couple of posts that claim you can't get any work done if you don't do it someone's specific way....I mean, once we get that started, there's a lot left in the tank, because it's usually said by people who do really crude work.



Difficult to tell if that’s an attempt at humour or just an amazingly arrogant thing to say.


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## Blackswanwood (15 May 2021)

Great offside decision


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## doctor Bob (15 May 2021)

looks like it's Leicesters day


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## Adam W. (15 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> looks like it's Leicesters day



But not D-W's


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## Argus (15 May 2021)

Argus said:


> Second half..... can't see Leicester winning this one.



Sorry to all the Leicester fans....... I'm now eating humble pie, Chomp! Chomp! Chomp! 
Brilliant save from Kaspar!

May all your edges be sharp....... now, where were we?

Ah Yes, sharpening... 

Carry on, London!


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## sometimewoodworker (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I've never ever said anything about “THE CORRECT WAY” it's not what I think. What I have said is the easiest, quickest and cheapest way. That's all really. Don't know why it's a problem.


I agree You didn’t say it’s the “THE CORRECT WAY” but your phrasing did. 

It is absolutely not the easiest way for many many people, and for them neither is it the quickest or cheapest. 

If I want sharp I don’t spend time trying to learn a new skill each year that’s neither easy or fast. I use my veritas jig, it gets my tools the exact angle each time I use it, it doesn’t mess up the shape of the edge or the stones, that probably cost more than most chisels. 
So FOR ME it’s the easiest, fastest, and because I have it the cheapest. 

I don’t say people should buy Shapton single grit stones Japanese chisels or a veritas guide but I was in Japan and could. 

For occasional use get a piece of plate glass or granite off cut a few sheets of wet and dry and a record wheel jig. 

If you sharpen often then that’s a completely different story but don’t imagine that your skill that you constantly practice works for everyone


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

don't worry - jacob has never shown a picture of a particularly crisp edge, so it's not like he's sitting on some big secret.


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## sometimewoodworker (16 May 2021)

D_W said:


> don't worry - jacob has never shown a picture of a particularly crisp edge, so it's not like he's sitting on some big secret.


He probably gets as close to what he wants in the time he’s prepared to spend. 

I get the same without the investment of time which I can guarantee is overall at least an order of magnitude less than he has had to put in over the years. 

Who gets the better edge doesn’t really matter I’m virtually certain that my edge is far smoother, but again it doesn’t matter. 

What is important is getting an edge that is good enough for the work you do and lasts a reasonable time. 

Anyway enough massaging of egos and hammering on an ossified viewpoint.


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## Blackswanwood (16 May 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> What is important is getting an edge that is good enough for the work you do and lasts a reasonable time.



I think that’s the most important thing to remember.


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## Keith 66 (16 May 2021)

I have never understood what the problem is with sharpening, First you need good tools with good steel, probably why most of my go to ones are over a hundred years old. Ordinary grey oil stone, i have collected about 7 over the years, I dont like red arkansas ones as i never seem to be able to get anything sharp on them. I have two grey stones that are excellent, they are soft & wear easily & one just had to be flattened on a belt linisher.
The way my dad taught me to sharpen was grind the concave 30 degree bevel then on the oilstone, WD40 or parafin as lube. Hold the chisel or iron so both ends of the concave bevel are sitting on the stone, rock it a bit to feel this. Lift back end a bit & work it back & forth a few times. flip it over & a couple of flat rubs on the bottom. I tend to strop a couple of times on the palm of my hand a trick i learnt from Sam the technician at Falmouth Technical college back in 79, he had worked in Falmouth dockyard as a young man, He used to strop 20" planer knives this way & also had three fingers missing, (But that was a bandsaw accident!)
When i ended up as a D&T technician in a school i used to strop chisels on my hand & the kids were always impressed!
Its like riding a bike once you get it you never forget.


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## Fergie 307 (16 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


>


Brilliant


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> ........ but don’t imagine that your skill that you constantly practice works for everyone


Actually I do think it would work for anyone but they have been talked out of it!
It's not highly skilled at all - it's basic and simple. As Keith 66 says above, a bit like riding a bike. Quite impossible until you suddenly get it after an hour or so
But don't worry about it do it your own way - just be aware that there is an alternative! Even if you lost all your kit and had no stone at all you would be able to sharpen quite well by looking around for a bit of slate, or marble, or anything


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## Daniel2 (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Actually I do think it would work for anyone but they have been talked out of it!
> It's not highly skilled at all - it's basic and simple.
> But don't worry about it do it your own way - just be aware that there is an alternative!



You're starting to sound like Paul Sellers !!


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## Chippysu (16 May 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> I have already tried the latter.
> 
> Tbh I have always looked at the leather strops as being a bit unnecessary, like.. who needs it THAT sharp? I should get one and find out for myself though I suppose.


Get one of your old wide leather belts, chop out the middle piece to use, attach it, unfinished side out, around a piece of 2x1, job done. Made mine from my hubby's belt back in college and still using it to this day. The sharper the tool the easier and safer to use. As for sharpening, I was the same, it's just practice.  Over time I developed my own technique, preference on bevels and angles of bevels for certain jobs. I inherited my grandad's & dad's chisels. The old steel takes an unbelievable edge but I need to hone/strop more often, the edge on my own newer chisels, (just over 30 years old,) keep the edge longer but never as sharp as my old ones. Carbon content makes a difference. Buy an old one from a junk shop & try it. You'll get there, it's just practice, trial & error. I've ended up with some wonderfully weird shapes & angles over the years, the penny will suddenly drop.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Chippysu said:


> Get one of your old wide leather belts, chop out the middle piece to use, attach it, unfinished side out, around a piece of 2x1, job done. Made mine from my hubby's belt back in college and still using it to this day. The sharper the tool the easier and safer to use. As for sharpening, I was the same, it's just practice.  Over time I developed my own technique, preference on bevels and angles of bevels for certain jobs. I inherited my grandad's & dad's chisels. The old steel takes an unbelievable edge but I need to hone/strop more often, the edge on my own newer chisels, (just over 30 years old,) keep the edge longer but never as sharp as my old ones. Carbon content makes a difference. Buy an old one from a junk shop & try it. You'll get there, it's just practice, trial & error. I've ended up with some wonderfully weird shapes & angles over the years, the penny will suddenly drop.


Mines a bit of handbag leather. I cut it from a bigger piece which I kept in case this one wears out. Still got it, 50 years on!


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## Blaidd-Drwg (16 May 2021)

Trying to flatten my oil stones can be interesting. All my oil stones are pre-owned and had channels and valleys and cups worn into them and I spent more hours than I care to think about flattening them. It is worth it in the end though because I especially like the oil stones for my adzes, axes, and drawknives. I always use my waterstones for chisels, plane blades, and similar. Right now I'm trying to figure out if I need a diamond plate to lap my waterstones. I've gotten this far without one (I've used a ceramic bathroom tile for ages) but I hear good things about some of them. Trying to justify the price though.


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Blaidd-Drwg said:


> Trying to flatten my oil stones can be interesting. All my oil stones are pre-owned and had channels and valleys and cups worn into them and I spent more hours than I care to think about flattening them. It is worth it in the end though because I especially like the oil stones for my adzes, axes, and drawknives. I always use my waterstones for chisels, plane blades, and similar. Right now I'm trying to figure out if I need a diamond plate to lap my waterstones. I've gotten this far without one (I've used a ceramic bathroom tile for ages) but I hear good things about some of them. Trying to justify the price though.


Best thing with oilstones is to not flatten them. Flattening and lapping are two notions which came over strong with modern sharpening. Instead, as you work just spread the load as evenly as you can.
Do have to freshen them up a bit - keep them well oiled and do a quick scrub over with a coarser bit of stone. I use a 3m diapad (which I happened to have - not bought for the purpose) and they are pricy but good value. Slightly bendy so no prob with a less than flat stone. This one's been going for years.


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

I use a carborundum brick rubber, but I'm weird like that.


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

Blaidd-Drwg said:


> Trying to flatten my oil stones can be interesting. All my oil stones are pre-owned and had channels and valleys and cups worn into them and I spent more hours than I care to think about flattening them. It is worth it in the end though because I especially like the oil stones for my adzes, axes, and drawknives. I always use my waterstones for chisels, plane blades, and similar. Right now I'm trying to figure out if I need a diamond plate to lap my waterstones. I've gotten this far without one (I've used a ceramic bathroom tile for ages) but I hear good things about some of them. Trying to justify the price though.



Atoma 400 , find the cheapest price on Amazon , etc. Should be about 60 bucks. Stay away from trend, etc.

If you want to flatten oilstones, diagonal lines made in an x pattern on a cheap stationary belt sander will do it, then lap to finish. The x pattern is done on the idler and not the open belt. (That's for natural stones. No great reason to flatten india and crystolon stones)


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## Blaidd-Drwg (16 May 2021)

Thanks D_W. I'm going to try that with my next stone.


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## Chippysu (16 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Mines a bit of handbag leather. I cut it from a bigger piece which I kept in case this one wears out. Still got it, 50 years on!


Bet your mum was chuffed!


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## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

Chippysu said:


> Get one of your old wide leather belts, chop out the middle piece to use, attach it, unfinished side out, around a piece of 2x1, job done. Made mine from my hubby's belt back in college and still using it to this day.


Was that what you were thinking about when you got his trousers off?


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## Chippysu (16 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Was that what you were thinking about when you got his trousers off?


 Well it was just before children came along!  Out lad was 26 yesterday so now it really would be about the belt leather!  Oohh are we allowed to have banter & jokes like this?!


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

An expensive diamond plate for flattening would be better used for direct sharpening IMHO. Cut out the middleman and dump the stone!
In a moment of madness (and it was a special offer) I bought 3 Ezelap 3x8 stones, which would cost about £240 now - the price of 10 Norton combi stones! Diamond for sharpening only - not for wasting on flattening cheap stones


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

Chippysu said:


> Well it was just before children came along!  Out lad was 26 yesterday so now it really would be about the belt leather!  Oohh are we allowed to have banter & jokes like this?!



I'm not sure anymore.


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

Diamond hones used on stones only basically last forever. Steel pulls diamonds off of them.

One diamond hone vs three that will wear out. For 4 times as much money. Sounds like a real bargain jacob.


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## scooby (16 May 2021)

Chippysu said:


> Oohh are we allowed to have banter & jokes like this?!



I think it should be mandatory, especially in sharpening threads.


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## Daniel2 (16 May 2021)

It's always comforting to have a sharpening thread going on, at any particular time.


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## Blackswanwood (16 May 2021)

@Jacob 

Your post at 8:50 purports to quote me but I don’t recognise the words and when I click on the link it goes to a comment I made about the offside decision in the football yesterday.







Any idea how this has happened?


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> @Jacob
> 
> Your post at 8:50 purports to quote me but I don’t recognise the words and when I click on the link it goes to a comment I made about the offside decision in the football yesterday.
> 
> ...


Oops. No sorry I've no idea. I had a look back but couldn't see how/why. Maybe I was editing and got the wires crossed. I've edited it back to "sometimewoodworker"


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## baldkev (16 May 2021)

Maybe we could stage a virtual boxing match? I bet 50 on d-w


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Difficult to tell if that’s an attempt at humour or just an amazingly arrogant thing to say.



It's a humorous observation. The fine workers I've met generally don't tolerate crudely sharpened tools, or their fine bits are done after the edges are used (e.g., I know a guitar maker who makes fine guitars, and uses handtools a bit, but he does all of his final fitting with router shimming, sanding finagles, etc). 

It's misleading to tell someone who wants to do a lot of work (including fine work or finish fitting) to suggest:
1) that getting a fine edge is a waste of time (it's less effort in the long run)
2) it takes a long time to do it

It actually takes less time and effort to do it as well as possible, but it does require some understanding of what's going on at the edge. 

A quick example - what's the difference in a stanley #4s longevity if you finish with a 4000 grit equivalent diamond hone vs. 1 micron diamonds or an inexpensive compound bar on wood (substitute the bar for stropping, same amount of time or less and never a failure to get sharpness). 50%. The latter edge will plane 1500 feet for 1000 that the former will do, but be easier to use the entire time

Does it matter if someone is not doing much finish work with hand tools, no much rough work? Probably not. When someone in that category gives advice to someone who wants to do those things, it's bad advice. It takes some experience to give it and blanket comments about what's needed or what's not with little experience aren't helpful to beginners. Cosman strongly recommending at one point that beginners should get the 30k shapton - a terrible suggestion. Really, there's no functional reason for that stone at all other than pleasure to some people. For someone else new who wants to work by hand and potentially carve, the strong assertions that going past an india stone is something pros never do - just as bad in the other direction. 

Telling someone who sharpens once a month that they shouldn't use a guide? Just stupid.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 May 2021)

I sharpen things probably about once a month, but I sharpen several plane irons and chisels at the same time. I work from a chair, being deficient to the tune of two in the lower limb department, so work at a less than ideal height. 
I learned to freehand (quickly and easily, one thing J. and I agree on) when I was about twelve and don't use a guide because it suits ME. I use water stones, because it suits ME. I sharpen only to 1200 grit (90% of the time) because because it suits ME.
Anyone notice a recurring theme there?


----------



## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

Chippysu said:


> Well it was just before children came along!  Out lad was 26 yesterday so now it really would be about the belt leather!  Oohh are we allowed to have banter & jokes like this?!





baldkev said:


> Maybe we could stage a virtual boxing match? I bet 50 on d-w


He's on ignore with plenty of folk, so it would be a rather one sided affair.


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I sharpen things probably about once a month, but I sharpen several plane irons and chisels at the same time. I work from a chair, being deficient to the tune of two in the lower limb department, so work at a less than ideal height.
> I learned to freehand (quickly and easily, one thing J. and I agree on) when I was about twelve and don't use a guide because it suits ME. I use water stones, because it suits ME. I sharpen only to 1200 grit (90% of the time) because because it suits ME.
> Anyone notice a recurring theme there?


Who is this M.E. whereof you speak? Why doesn't he use oil stones?


----------



## Argus (16 May 2021)

Meanwhile, back in the land of sharpening, despite all the talk of free-hand stroking, (with all its rhythmic pleasures), jiggery, stones or diamond plates, there has been no mention - not a jot - about LUBRICATION.

Here goes, then, what to use in a civilised process.........oil? water? window-cleaning fluid? .......... your own secret formulation?


----------



## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I sharpen things probably about once a month, but I sharpen several plane irons and chisels at the same time. I work from a chair, being deficient to the tune of two in the lower limb department, so work at a less than ideal height.
> I learned to freehand (quickly and easily, one thing J. and I agree on) when I was about twelve and don't use a guide because it suits ME. I use water stones, because it suits ME. I sharpen only to 1200 grit (90% of the time) because because it suits ME.
> Anyone notice a recurring theme there?


Yes, you are Michael Gove and I claim my £5.


----------



## scooby (16 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> He's on ignore with plenty of folk,


Serious question, how do you know that?


----------



## doctor Bob (16 May 2021)

The most curious thing is, I would have thought you need to make things to practice sharpening skills.
Just saying. For some it's talk the talk ............

I really don't give two hoots whether my guys freehand or jig or beltsander sharpen or diamond v stone, they are all very good at it and quick. They also make stuff every day, day in day out, rather than "talk about making stuff".
A little secret............................. the internet is full of bullshitters..............


----------



## D_W (16 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> He's on ignore with plenty of folk, so it would be a rather one sided affair.



Usually with people who give evasive answers or with insecurity problems. And not even intentionally triggered on my part - just legitimate questions. Why people have ego issues and can't answer questions (because they're afraid that something will be known about them that will hurt their ego to share) is really beyond me.


----------



## D_W (16 May 2021)

scooby said:


> Serious question, how do you know that?



Because two people shared that. Staying off of ignore lists at the cost of meaningful discussions isn't really my goal, though. Adam made some claim of using a scrub plane and the use of it and that he works cubic meters of wood, I asked him if he worked wet wood, which apparently is most of what he does, but his response "not always". I asked him why he couldn't provide answers that would give people context since it's kind of important, and he threw a fit (it took a while to get to point where he still never admitted working wet wood, just said "not always" to dry. I think he works mostly wet wood, but it's a secret). I didn't gather why it was a difficult thing to discuss, and still don't. 

Apparently, on forums, straightforward discussion is against most peoples' personal TOS.


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## wolfrace (16 May 2021)

Does anyone here have the ability to ‘lock’ their wrists at the right angle for sharpening, like you see on a lot of tutorials? I have to say mine don’t, they just seem to wobble about I get by without always using a guide but have to resort to it sometimes to re-establish angles. One thing I’ve found out re. sharpening is to have a dedicated area to it, so you don’t have to faff around clearing stuff out of the way, walk to sharpening area, sharpen, back to bench and start taking end grain shavings off cast iron , courtesy of your .25 micron diamond paste


----------



## doctor Bob (16 May 2021)

Argus said:


> Here goes, then, what to use in a civilised process.........oil? water? window-cleaning fluid? .......... your own secret formulation?



Unicorn sperm, quite difficult to find the secretive animal, mind you that's the easiest part...........


am I in trouble with the wokies?


----------



## scooby (16 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Unicorn sperm, quite difficult to find the secretive animal, mind you that's the easiest part...........
> 
> 
> am I in trouble with the wokies?


Thats an image I really didn't want in my head


----------



## Argus (16 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Unicorn sperm, quite difficult to find the secretive animal, mind you that's the easiest part...........
> 
> 
> am I in trouble with the wokies?



Come again?


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## Jacob (16 May 2021)

wolfrace said:


> Does anyone here have the ability to ‘lock’ their wrists at the right angle for sharpening, like you see on a lot of tutorials? I have to say mine don’t, they just seem to wobble about


Me too! People write this sort of stuff for mags and just come up with daft ideas which then never quite go away.
You have to visualise 30º of course, but that isn't difficult. You could always cut a little wedge at 30º to remind yourself. The only other angle you need is "a bit less than 30º" which should pan out near to 25º


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

wolfrace said:


> Does anyone here have the ability to ‘lock’ their wrists at the right angle for sharpening, like you see on a lot of tutorials? I have to say mine don’t, they just seem to wobble about I get by without always using a guide but have to resort to it sometimes to re-establish angles. One thing I’ve found out re. sharpening is to have a dedicated area to it, so you don’t have to faff around clearing stuff out of the way, walk to sharpening area, sharpen, back to bench and start taking end grain shavings off cast iron , courtesy of your .25 micron diamond paste



Nobody with a lot of experience actually does that. It's a feel thing, you hold the chisel at a relative angle with some wiggle room and get after it. I think the idea of turning into a human scaffold operating like a giant honing guide is parallel to people wanting to use hand tools like power tools, or to turn into the same type of scaffold to take a pass with a plane. Both are similar - we extend our arms a little and the wrists move to accommodate arms extending.


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> am I in trouble with the wokies?



Yes - flashing lights and sirens are imminent.


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## JohnPW (16 May 2021)

The only way you can lock your wrists is if you lock your whole upper body and arms and step forwards and backwards, and I don't think anybody goes that!


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

JohnPW said:


> The only way you can lock your wrists is if you lock your whole upper body and arms and step forwards and backwards, and I don't think anybody goes that!



I hate to say it, but there was a "guru" here in the US who, as far as I know, didn't do too much woodworking ,but ran around to clubs teaching sharpening. That's exactly what he advocated. It's sort of like saying you'll have a low-fatigue low stress planing position of you tense up rigid and don't extend your arms. An hour or two of planing usually solves the myth of that being easy.

Sharpening is a results-based activity, and hopefully with a considerable amount of laziness involved to avoid doing things that are labor intensive (as in, results and speed come together at the same time). What seems to be hard for some people to get is that the results are needed, but the economy isn't as far as someone sharpening seldom. Fast and sloppy isn't any good unless we're knifing mortar off of tile.

Context is important, though, too - especially when talking about something like a felling axe and someone listening to a carver is wondering why "people don't know what they're doing, and are sharpening a felling axe with a file, and why are the axes so soft, anyway. Only Rc 61 is a suitable axe hardness".


----------



## Jacob (16 May 2021)

JohnPW said:


> The only way you can lock your wrists is if you lock your whole upper body and arms and step forwards and backwards, and I don't think anybody goes that!


This chap does it, side to side, like some sort of dance of the gnomes! 6.22 in. Always makes me laugh. I wonder if he has found out how to sharpen a scrub plane yet? https://www.google.com/search?q=lee...e&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_k2ahYNblIcKajLsPreuq2AE13


----------



## Cabinetman (16 May 2021)

JohnPW said:


> The only way you can lock your wrists is if you lock your whole upper body and arms and step forwards and backwards, and I don't think anybody goes that!


No but it is possible to keep your feet still and sway on your knees ankles and hips. DW doesn’t think much to it but it’s the way I’ve always done it. Not that I’m totally locked up on my upper half.


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## Adam W. (16 May 2021)

_"It's just a jump to the left
And then a step to the right
With your hands on your hips
You bring your knees in tight

But it's the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane
Let's do the Time Warp again
Let's do the Time Warp again...."_

And sharpen that chisel to 27.25º


----------



## mikej460 (16 May 2021)

Argus said:


> Meanwhile, back in the land of sharpening, despite all the talk of free-hand stroking, (with all its rhythmic pleasures), jiggery, stones or diamond plates, there has been no mention - not a jot - about LUBRICATION.
> 
> Here goes, then, what to use in a civilised process.........oil? water? window-cleaning fluid? .......... your own secret formulation?


Windex?


----------



## mikej460 (16 May 2021)

Well after getting through a bucket of popcorn reading this thread I saw only one mention of actual steel used. My 10p worth is it is a case of not only what works for you but also what works for the steel your chisel is made from. I have various grades of oilstones and waterstones which I bought when starting out but haven't used much since. I use tend to use oilstones and a basic guide for working through a damaged (chipped) edge and freehand for honing; this works for me on my dewalt and old sandvik chisels for now but I also have a set of better quality kirschens stored away for which I have promised myself to hone with the waterstones once I've setup my new workshop later this year  . I use a scrap of upturned leather glued to a piece of mdf plus autosol for final stropping. I know if I've got it right if I can square out a routed mortise with three strokes and not reach for Thor's Hammer. For context I use the dewalts for building work but I've made furniture with the sandviks all with hand made joints.


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## D_W (16 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> No but it is possible to keep your feet still and sway on your knees ankles and hips. DW doesn’t think much to it but it’s the way I’ve always done it. Not that I’m totally locked up on my upper half.



The shimmy advocated here was literally a dance step or a waist rigid rocking. I think folks have a different level of rigidity and if you sharpen something three times an hour in the shop, you'll end up doing things the way I do. Not because "it's the right way" but out of laziness. Laziness and increasing cycles to observe sort of lead to the same place.

Kind of like drawing an arrow back on a bow. It's not like we're that much stronger after a couple of years of bow shooting, but our bodies and brains learn the easiest way to draw the string.


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## Jacob (17 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> _"It's just a jump to the left
> And then a step to the right
> With your hands on your hips
> You bring your knees in tight
> ...


I might try the Hokey Cokey with WD40


----------



## doctor Bob (17 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I might try the Hokey Cokey with WD40


Hip done then Jacob?


----------



## Chippysu (17 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Unicorn sperm, quite difficult to find the secretive animal, mind you that's the easiest part...........
> 
> 
> am I in trouble with the wokies?


I bought Smurf Poo, not convinced it's any better than my other honing pastes but certainly makes me smile every time I use the blue goo!


----------



## doctor Bob (17 May 2021)

Chippysu said:


> I bought Smurf Poo, not convinced it's any better than my other honing pastes but certainly makes me smile every time I use the blue goo!



Similar to womble doodoo I'd have thought.


----------



## Chippysu (17 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Similar to womble doodoo I'd have thought.


You know I'm googling that now to see if it's real!


----------



## D_W (17 May 2021)

Chippysu said:


> I bought Smurf Poo, not convinced it's any better than my other honing pastes but certainly makes me smile every time I use the blue goo!



I get only the Japanese Smurf poo. They eat a lot of volcano ash.


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## mikej460 (17 May 2021)

D_W said:


> I get only the Japanese Smurf poo. They eat a lot of volcano ash.


But don't the US Smurfs eat grits?


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## D_W (17 May 2021)

mikej460 said:


> But don't the US Smurfs eat grits?



They do, but eating grits makes them dull, you know! Imprecise, kind of slow.


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## D_W (17 May 2021)

(I'm assuming folks here have eaten grits - at least one or two. I grew up right at the dividing line between north and south in the US - not the notional line, but the geographic divide from the civil war. We got a franchise restaurant from the south and I worked at it. They had grits. I was sure there was something wrong with them but each time, I tried them, they were the same. I didn't try them that many times. I hear with enough butter and salt they can taste good...if you like to eat mostly butter and salt).


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## Chippysu (17 May 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Similar to womble doodoo I'd have thought.


Well I'm disappointed now it's not real. But mine is!


----------



## doctor Bob (17 May 2021)

Blow me down, thought you were taking the mickey.


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## Adam W. (17 May 2021)

Well that's a messy corner.


----------



## Droogs (17 May 2021)

Here ya go @doctor Bob 




__





Smurf Poo - bolpol Original Soft Blue honing Paste for Knife Cleaning & stropping/Sharpening Knives on Leather strop - 120g Pot : Amazon.co.uk: Sports & Outdoors


Smurf Poo - bolpol Original Soft Blue honing Paste for Knife Cleaning & stropping/Sharpening Knives on Leather strop - 120g Pot : Amazon.co.uk: Sports & Outdoors



www.amazon.co.uk


----------



## Sgian Dubh (17 May 2021)

D_W said:


> (I'm assuming folks here have eaten grits - at least one or two.


Yep, tried them when I lived in Houston. Disgusting slop. Slainte.


----------



## Chippysu (17 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Well that's a messy corner.


Lots happening on the bench at the mo!


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## Snettymakes (17 May 2021)

Sweet Jesus, what happened to my thread?

I read the first couple of pages and took away the advice there and applied as much as I was able over the weekend.

I chucked out the micro-bevel. I dug out my guide and found that improved things on the >600 grits. I also found that just pulling backwards (not pushing forwards) on the higher grits also improved things. However I found that with my bevel set to 25 degrees, the edge didn't last long (less than one corner's worth of dovetails), with some chipping out.

Figuring that the bevel was too acute, I re-introduced a micro-bevel at 30 degrees with a couple of swipes at higher grits and achieved the best edge yet, that lasted me through the rest of my box making.




I think that I've still got a long way to go to get any cop at sharpening, but I do feel like your advice has got me to a point that I can actually start improving from. Thanks to all .

Still need to buy a strop.


----------



## Chippysu (17 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Well that's a messy corner.


Bit of context for you Adam, incase your ocd was twitching!  I'm restoring some chisels/planes in between jobs.


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## D_W (17 May 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> S
> 
> I think that I've still got a long way to go to get any cop at sharpening, but I do feel like your advice has got me to a point that I can actually start improving from. Thanks to all .
> 
> Still need to buy a strop.



great conclusion - you learned about geometry (with the microbevel) and improved edge finish at once. You'll fare better in the long term if you use some variation of what you just learned than if you sharpen a full bevel - but you can do what you did freehand. I measured a bunch of irons a few years ago when someone asked me what angle that I sharpen at, and my answer was "i don't know, the shallowest angle where a plane iron won't chip, and same with the chisels". 

I freehand similar to what you did here with a guide and none of the terminal angles varied by more than about a degree. The only reason I don't use a guide is because I don't have the patience any longer.


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## D_W (17 May 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Yep, tried them when I lived in Houston. Disgusting slop. Slainte.



I've heard perhaps a half dozen people say that they have a way to make them good. That's a warning for me with food (canada goose is another - "people say it tastes bad, but I know a way to make it taste good")....

...I've got a way to make geese and grits taste good. Feed them to a pig and then eat bacon.


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## Adam W. (17 May 2021)

I was begining to sweat a little, but I feel OK now after blowing into a paper bag for a while.


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## Jacob (17 May 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> Sweet Jesus, what happened to my thread?.......


Well nobody has ever asked a question about sharpening before.
Box looks good.
You've given yourself a tough challenge doing DTs in thickish oak, both the cutting and the sharpening!
The outer tails look a bit on the thin side - they get called "half" DTs but 3/4 DTs is better.
You've done the DT trick of making them slightly longer - to be planed back for a neat finish, except planing end grain oak is not easy - I'd go for power sander.


----------



## 1275gt (18 May 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> Sweet Jesus, what happened to my thread?
> 
> I read the first couple of pages and took away the advice there and applied as much as I was able over the weekend.
> 
> ...


I'm also a beginner and one invaluable piece of advice I learnt is keeping going till you feel a burr edge to edge. I used to see a shiny secondary bevel and assume that's me done but once I started to feel for the burr. I noticed I didn't need to go to the much higher grits as the edge was shaving sharp. (don't need to but still do so anyway ). 

All the best.


----------



## Jacob (18 May 2021)

1275gt said:


> I'm also a beginner and one invaluable piece of advice I learnt is keeping going till you feel a burr edge to edge. I used to see a shiny secondary bevel and assume that's me done but once I started to feel for the burr. I noticed I didn't need to go to the much higher grits as the edge was shaving sharp. (don't need to but still do so anyway ).
> 
> All the best.


Spot on! Burr especially in the middle of a plane blade - you get most wear in the middle and it's possible to leave it slightly less sharp than the rest of the blade.


----------



## Snettymakes (18 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> Well nobody has ever asked a question about sharpening before.
> Box looks good.
> You've given yourself a tough challenge doing DTs in thickish oak, both the cutting and the sharpening!
> The outer tails look a bit on the thin side - they get called "half" DTs but 3/4 DTs is better.
> You've done the DT trick of making them slightly longer - to be planed back for a neat finish, except planing end grain oak is not easy - I'd go for power sander.



Yeah, the half DTs are probably a bit thin and therefore vulnerable. I struggled a little with my laying out (I have a gauge), but that'll come with practice.

I *can* suffer through the oak end grain, I *can't* reliably make everything the perfect size... yet. Yes the oak is a bit chunky for this application, honestly I just decided "this'll do".

I learned pretty quickly that making the hidden edges slightly concave allowed for much easier fitting, and trimming to fit.

I also realised quite early that I'd screwed up and the pins/tails are the wrong way around for my chosen application. This is a box, but it's a box that I will slide into a cubby and treat as a removable drawer, so the DTs should be set up so that they can't be pulled apart by force on the front face. Oh well, live n learn. I've got another box to make, identical, but better.

Thanks, that's some great info.


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## Adam W. (18 May 2021)

I'd plane those ends off with a sharp block plane.

A customer service agent will be along shortly to tell you how to sharpen it properly.


----------



## Garden Shed Projects (18 May 2021)

mikej460 said:


> Well after getting through a bucket of popcorn reading this thread I saw only one mention of actual steel used. My 10p worth is it is a case of not only what works for you but also what works for the steel your chisel is made from. I have various grades of oilstones and waterstones which I bought when starting out but haven't used much since. I use tend to use oilstones and a basic guide for working through a damaged (chipped) edge and freehand for honing; this works for me on my dewalt and old sandvik chisels for now but I also have a set of better quality kirschens stored away for which I have promised myself to hone with the waterstones once I've setup my new workshop later this year  . I use a scrap of upturned leather glued to a piece of mdf plus autosol for final stropping. I know if I've got it right if I can square out a routed mortise with three strokes and not reach for Thor's Hammer. For context I use the dewalts for building work but I've made furniture with the sandviks all with hand made joints.


I tried autosol on my strop last night. It’s a revelation. My chisels have never been so sharp. Great tip


----------



## scooby (18 May 2021)

Snettymakes said:


> Sweet Jesus, what happened to my thread?
> 
> I read the first couple of pages and took away the advice there and applied as much as I was able over the weekend.
> 
> ...



I think you're done a good job there


----------



## John Brown (18 May 2021)

D_W said:


> It's a humorous observation. The fine workers I've met generally don't tolerate crudely sharpened tools, or their fine bits are done after the edges are used (e.g., I know a guitar maker who makes fine guitars, and uses handtools a bit, but he does all of his final fitting with router shimming, sanding finagles, etc).
> 
> It's misleading to tell someone who wants to do a lot of work (including fine work or finish fitting) to suggest:
> 1) that getting a fine edge is a waste of time (it's less effort in the long run)
> ...


What do you make, D_W?
Genuine question.
I mean I believe you make chisels, but do you make anything with the chisels? 
Just curious.


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## Adam W. (18 May 2021)

Good question.


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## Cabinetman (18 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> What do you make, D_W?
> Genuine question.
> I mean I believe you make chisels, but do you make anything with the chisels?
> Just curious.


 Yes it got me curious when Doug said he was sharpening three times an hour.


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> What do you make, D_W?
> Genuine question.
> I mean I believe you make chisels, but do you make anything with the chisels?
> Just curious.



No, nothing, I've never made anything. I sharpen 3 times an hour just as an idle mode. You sound like Jacob, who has worked as much wood by hand in 40 years as I have in the last 4.


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## John Brown (18 May 2021)

D_W said:


> No, nothing, I've never made anything. I sharpen 3 times an hour just as an idle mode. You sound like Jacob, who has worked as much wood by hand in 40 years as I have in the last 4.


As far as I know, Jacob has worked with wood for a living, his whole life.
I am very much a hobby wood butcher. I'm also not proficient at sharpening, and thus I don't pontificate or try to advise on the subject. I was genuinely curious as to what you make.


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## Daniel2 (18 May 2021)

I do seem to spend far more of my time sharpening than making   
But, that's because I'm still carp at the former and not much better with the latter.
My learning curve remains a sheer cliff face.


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> As far as I know, Jacob has worked with wood for a living, his whole life.
> I am very much a hobby wood butcher. I'm also not proficient at sharpening, and thus I don't pontificate or try to advise on the subject. I was genuinely curious as to what you make.



You can go back through my history on here and find plenty. I am a hobbyist, too. I'm either building with wood or metal, but not both at the same time. Sometimes the wood is planes, sometimes it's cabinets, sometimes it's guitars, and sometimes it's even pencils (by hand).

When I build anything of size, I'm probably sharpening something three times an hour because it usually involves little power tool use and 99.9 percent of the time, it's dry wood.


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

By the way, we know from enormous efforts in trying to find out what Jacob does that he uses mostly power tools for the last three decades.


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## Adam W. (18 May 2021)

D_W said:


> By the way, we know from enormous efforts in trying to find out what Jacob does that he uses mostly power tools for the last three decades.



You seem to have a serious hang up about someone else.


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## Jacob (18 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> You seem to have a serious hang up about someone else.


I've got him on ignore but had to have a peek! I'm quite flattered - he mentions me almost everyday!


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

It's a little odd when someone follows your posts around, evades answering anything directly and then tells you that you have a hang up. If I have any hang up, it's about folks who claim to be experts, show relatively little and then assert expertise that turns out to be in conflict with reality.


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

I'll be less oppositional - here's stuff I posted in the last year and a half or so. I was just playing a game as I generally respond with pictures, but I've noticed over time, few others do. Or the pictures don't match what they say. The stuff shown below isn't going to be what some want to see - after I talk at length at sharpening and getting results from it, what a large cohort would really like to find is that I don't make anything so they could give me a "so ha, i knew it!)



(a case that I made last year, about 90-95% made with hand tools). Before anyone gets excited (it always happens), the mrs. demanded soft close hinges, no center divider and no face frame - it's a game cabinet for the kids. I don't really care that much how it looks. I dimensioned the wood by hand. The T&G in the back is by hand (shellac, 3/4ths of a french polish), the finish is applied by hand, and the stain is earth pigments).

I guess it would be nice to build a period piece without the spouse's whims/conditions, but it's not something I need.

resawing the panels and then hand thicknessing them (these are door panels - they're matched, but not as a style statement so much as for ease, but it does look better than when they're not matched).





several planes:

https://i.imgur.com/5yacaZb.jpg (the sides, bottom and screw of this plane are from a kit, but three of the infills that I've built are scratch - kits are harder to work with, but I had them - when you dovetail someone else's machine cut parts, you don't get the room to work with that you'd like - this kit was built with width the same as the iron and the mouth goes all the way to the edge of the bottom, which is too narrow - but you work with it or make another from scratch)
https://i.imgur.com/VwbO2RQ.jpg -double ended shooting plane. Not much use for it
https://i.imgur.com/ZCIdfyZ.jpg - dovetailed skew infill shooter (works better than the above, but there isn't much shooting in anything other than small work, so it collects dust).

A pair of guitars
https://i.imgur.com/4ltc8oJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LAyV1Hk.jpg
and another in solid spruce with a cherry neck.


https://i.imgur.com/c3Ov0pv.jpg



Pencils and a few test chess pieces (that's something I haven't done more of yet - turning a chess set - at some point, I will).

A gaggle of test plane irons (third from the top is LV, though)
https://i.imgur.com/Gvt3ahv.jpg

My kitchen (though this was several years ago now - two of the cabinets in this kitchen are made entirely by hand - see if you can tell which). I fabricated the counter tops and cut and fit all of the tin (It's metallic and not fake stick on rubbish).
https://i.imgur.com/8kQM8PL.jpg

Why not make more furniture? I have nowhere to put furniture.


----------



## D_W (18 May 2021)

(you can see one my my power tool acquisitions in the last five years, though - the OSS spindle sander. If you're going to make electric guitars neatly, you'll be squaring the sides up with one of those, even if you actually cut the bodies with a turning saw and drawknife/shave and plane most of the waste off). 

Chisels turn out to be more machine-dependent than almost anything else I've made other than the first 3/4ths of the kitchen cabinets. I wish I'd made them entirely by hand - it was easier (more reliable) to cut dadoes and rebates in the ply with hand tools (in this case, the dadoes are done with a sized down dado plane - if you can make planes, you can find an old dado plane and recut the nicker and narrow the entire thing to fit modern ply better than you can trying to find the right router bit with the needed relief amount. 

Chisels are machine dependent (in terms of cutting the bevels after hardening) as a matter of practicality, though. You can grind them freehand, and then finish them by hand, but the grinding has always been done on powered wheels unless you use something crappy like A2 or some other alloy that's made for air or slow transition hardening and stability in heat treat. So, I've bought some power tools - just not much for the ones everyone else uses (I do like having a charged cordless drill at hand all the time, though).


----------



## D_W (18 May 2021)

(separately, I have met zero people who have worked entirely by hand and who don't sharpen to a relatively high standard all the time. I'm not talking about hatcheting barn beams and making youtube videos, I'm talking about the very few people who actually do or have worked entirely by hand. They will all sharpen to a fine level because it's predictable and reduces effort. 

The thing between what I"m talking about and making test pieces is sticking bullheaded to some ideal like jacob talks about or actually examining results and figuring out how to sharpen finer, more consistently and with less effort. It turns out to be very simple. There are plenty who "know too much" to undertake getting better at it, but it's rarely trade carvers or others. There's another house-wright guy in the US who sees something relayed from me and he's "been doing it for 50 years" and works through some absurd full bevel 5 or 6 step process going on at length that it's faster. I have no idea why people like to cling to stupid ideas that are easy to disprove right in front of them in ten minutes. The only excuse is that there's less of the hand tooling than most people claim they're doing.


----------



## D_W (18 May 2021)

Jacob said:


> I've got him on ignore but had to have a peek! I'm quite flattered - he mentions me almost everyday!



I'm not offended, Jacob. You see things as one size fits all without understanding the underlying bits that would make things better, faster, more efficient and universally understood for most people starting out. The constant nonsense droning about not power grinding or using different angles for grind and finish is bodger level stuff.


----------



## John Brown (18 May 2021)

Looks like some fine work there, D_W.
Thanks for answering my question.


----------



## scooby (18 May 2021)

Some very nice work there D_W


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> Looks like some fine work there, D_W.
> Thanks for answering my question.



Thanks, John - looks like I missed the pencil picture (not that it matters that much). I have a special fascination with whether things can be done by hand, or by hand and eye when it's assumed they're not, but it requires a fair bit of understanding what doing things entirely by hand efficiently means. 

(my lathe is powered, though. It's not a "good" lathe, but it's powered. There's a small group of electric tools that I like a lot and won't give up - generally drilling, grinding and the spindle sander). 

When cutting chisel blanks to forge, even those are cut by hand (it's quite pleasant). 



I smarmed the first response because usually when someone asks that, they're looking to find leverage, and it's true that I'm no George Wilson, but not true that I don't make anything (I to tend to talk little about things I don't know much about, and a lot about the things where i sense people are being led in the wrong direction as far as effort, ease and likely success). 

Thanks for reminding me that some people are just curious and won't disappear after asking that question.


----------



## raffo (18 May 2021)

I like the kitchen cabinets Dave, I'm assuming the design parameters had input from the wife.


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## JohnPW (18 May 2021)

This is getting off topic.

And most of the replies about sharpening didn't address the OP's question anyway.


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## John Brown (18 May 2021)

JohnPW said:


> This is getting off topic.
> 
> And most of the replies about sharpening didn't address the OP's question anyway.


Probably true.
To my inexpert mind, it could be that a slightly ragged edge from the coarser stone feels sharper. I guess it depends on how the OP is measuring the sharpness. I do know a bit about Sharpness, but that's hardly the same thing.


----------



## doctor Bob (18 May 2021)

Great to see your work D-W


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

JohnPW said:


> This is getting off topic.
> 
> And most of the replies about sharpening didn't address the OP's question anyway.



I did, completely, in my first post. Enough to determine if the issue was with the chisel or the sharpening. I guess it wasn't appreciated. The OP then applied a microbevel and solved his problems, which eliminated the potential edge finish issues or questioning whether the angle was steep enough or the steel was the problem. 

Done.


----------



## D_W (18 May 2021)

John Brown said:


> Probably true.
> To my inexpert mind, it could be that a slightly ragged edge from the coarser stone feels sharper. I guess it depends on how the OP is measuring the sharpness. I do know a bit about Sharpness, but that's hardly the same thing.



Interestingly, if you're testing knives, a knife slicing with a coarser edge will last longer in many of the tests, but it doesn't last as long with chisels or plane irons (or enter a cut as easily - we're kind of pushing things into a cut and most knife tests slice).

I found this (longer coarse edge) kind of shocking, but I guess it shouldn't be and it does a good job explaining why sharpening something and examining duration or failure doesn't mean sharpening something else with different use, steel, hardness, geometry will yield the same.

I'll leave sharpening carbide to the machinists.

A very good simple test of sharpness for planes is to take three irons of the same type, set them up with a 25 degree grind, a 33 degree microbevel and then plane the same edge of wood with them until each is dull, rotating each every 200 feet or so. I've done this several times and learned things I didn't expect to learn (at 33 degrees, most chipping stops except in very poor quality irons - at 30 degrees, there is chipping and no gain in longevity, usually - depends on the wood).

When you do a test of this type once you have a good sense of feel with steels, you suddenly notice effort differences and if it takes an hour to do this some lazy saturday afternoon, if you stick around and do any significant amount of hand work, it'll pay dividends indefinitely. You can gain back the effort improvement in a couple of sessions.

What I found is this (though others have found the same)
* stopping failure is necessary to get significant longevity - this always occurs somewhere between 30 and 35 degrees in chisels and plane irons (except perhaps for narrow mortise chisels)
* in plane irons, I started with 5 micron diamonds, then worked through various stones and ended with 1 micron diamonds. 5 micron diamonds planed 65% of the length of 1 micron diamonds, fine oilstones (both a fine washita and a black ark stone - the former is easier to finish an edge with and functionally similar in sharpness if it's not scuffed) go about 80-85% as long. Apparently, there is some duration gained above 1 micron, but I don't care - sharpening is more than two steps at that point and I'm out. The 1 micron finish only has to be at the very very tip of the tool and can be applied after a medium stone

I didn't go coarser than 5 micron diamonds, but they were loose fresh diamonds, and that's a very brash edge (like a 1500 diamond plate that's worn in). if you don't mind diamonds (autosol is fine if you do), the tip polishing replaces a strop and you're still sharpening a plane iron for about a minute and less for chisels. If you do the job right, you'll be sharpening wear and not edge damage.

I've run these tests, others have, etc (I mostly ran my long test to check how well irons live up to their claims of planing duration - most do reasonably well, except blue steel japanese irons match O1 at higher hardness, and A2 doesn't really gain much for its abrasion resistance as the duration over O1 (25%) is with a horrible edge condition, and it hates some natural stones).

The trick after testing these things one on top of another is figuring out how to do them without spending extra time or without much. That didn't turn out to be that difficult, but not separating setting up geometry and then just polishing the very tip of the tool creates the illusion that they will take a long time. One minute per plane iron for all of them - drastically reduced effort planing, drastically higher chance of finishing an edge, and no guide needed.

The results were not what I expected, but results are results. Knife slicing tests give us a good indicator of a steel's ability for longevity in wood as long as the steel is fine enough and has enough toughness and hardening potential, but slicing tests and edge coarseness don't match.

(I still don't use diamonds, but the results were consistent and stark - and squash some OWTs about natural stones creating longer lasting or sharper edges. They don't. It's OK that they don't - but difficult for some people - generally not on this forum - to admit that they prefer something that doesn't work better. Everyone wants their choice to be the best).


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

raffo said:


> I like the kitchen cabinets Dave, I'm assuming the design parameters had input from the wife.



No, she didn't like them -but that's my fault because I just ignored what she wanted. I wanted to redo the kitchen sort of simple-strip everything out, put it back in new bits and make a bigger long cabinet with more countertop on the opposite side (out of the picture) so that we could vent the HVAC behind and under the cabinet and not lose the space. She really wanted to gut the kitchen, remove walls and all kinds of things and it didn't make money sense. At the time I started, I wanted cherry cabinets - while I was making them, she relayed that she didn't like them but I powered through it. She picked the tin - it's the only thing that she's OK with. 

Still a sore subject here, but we had just had a back room fitted out to be permanent (from a prior porch) and I was tired of spending money (and didn't want white cabinets - nothing against them, just didn't want white cabinets or something that isn't wood). 

She calls the figure that's in some of the panels "dirt". "Nobody else has wood that still has dirt in it"


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## richarddownunder (18 May 2021)

I've come late to this thread but can't see (in the first bit) what sort of chisels they are. I noticed, skimming some of the rest, that they didn't really hold up well even when initially sharp. Just wondering it the problem is the steel. That may have been covered somewhere but just thought I'd ask. Incidentally, for all the stuff I make as a humble hobby woodworker (clocks, guitars, various boxes etc etc), a honing guide, coarse diamond stone and a 6000 grit waterstone are all I ever use (that is all I have) and it gets things sharp enough to cleanly cut anything I have ever encountered - not talking about splitting atoms here, just a pragmatic, slice through wood scale with minimal chipping/tearout. Takes about a minute for a chisel. A couple of minutes for a plane and most of that is setting up afterwards. A bit longer for spokeshaves as I have a jig (bit of wood) for them otherwise I find them fiddly beggars. Once you have the hang of the system you happen to use (and they are many and varied apparently), sharpening (of flat edges at least) to this sort of pragmatic level is just part of the routine and a pretty simple process IMHO. For me...honing guide (essential for me), correct angle, a few passes on each sharpening medium, a couple of strokes on the back to remove any burr, wipe the tool/iron dry, carry on with the actual work...correct angle, sharp (enough) tools for nearly anything, no rust. Very occasionally, a re-grind to set the primary angle. Time to run for cover I guess.


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## Bm101 (18 May 2021)

JohnPW said:


> This is getting off topic.
> 
> And most of the replies about sharpening didn't address the OP's question anyway.


Why is there no funny emoticon for 'No sh*t Sherlock!


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

Bm101 said:


> Why is there no funny emoticon for 'No sh*t Sherlock!



We've got the poo, but no sherlock.


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## D_W (18 May 2021)




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## D_W (18 May 2021)

richarddownunder said:


> I've come late to this thread but can't see (in the first bit) what sort of chisels they are. I noticed, skimming some of the rest, that they didn't really hold up well even when initially sharp. Just wondering it the problem is the steel. That may have been covered somewhere but just thought I'd ask. Incidentally, for all the stuff I make as a humble hobby woodworker (clocks, guitars, various boxes etc etc), a honing guide, coarse diamond stone and a 6000 grit waterstone are all I ever use (that is all I have) and it gets things sharp enough to cleanly cut anything I have ever encountered - not talking about splitting atoms here, just a pragmatic, slice through wood scale with minimal chipping/tearout. Takes about a minute for a chisel. A couple of minutes for a plane and most of that is setting up afterwards. A bit longer for spokeshaves as I have a jig (bit of wood) for them otherwise I find them fiddly beggars. Once you have the hang of the system you happen to use (and they are many and varied apparently), sharpening (of flat edges at least) to this sort of pragmatic level is just part of the routine and a pretty simple process IMHO. For me...honing guide (essential for me), correct angle, a few passes on each sharpening medium, a couple of strokes on the back to remove any burr, wipe the tool/iron dry, carry on with the actual work...correct angle, sharp (enough) tools for nearly anything, no rust. Very occasionally, a re-grind to set the primary angle. Time to run for cover I guess.



same thing was covered pretty early, but I tried to do it subtle (but then followed by saying do it before jacob gets here - that probably wasn't that subtle), but the point being let's solve issues of unfinished edges (method problem), poor geometry (method problem) or crumbling steel (poor chisel quality) at once. 

All can happen - solving a problem rather than just swinging a hammer is a bridge too far, though. The OP went back and sharpened what was probably a combination of the first two and moved on. 

But every sharpening thread is like the BP oil spill - the slick left behind lasts for a while. We just want a little oil from the well, but eventually it gets spilled and everyone forgets what the well was for in the first place.


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## scooby (18 May 2021)

I showed my 12 year old nephew this thread when it was at 3-4 pages (complete with the obligatory popcorn gif) and explained they always end up in arguments.

He looked at me like I was ******* mental


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## D_W (18 May 2021)

If this one starts to get dull, register for a knife forum and leave a post in the main forum that says "hey, I'm new to the knife world, but I'm thinking about having a few dozen blades made and then selling knives professionally. What steel should I use". 



You will soon find that it's impossible to use certain steels in knives that you may have used for decades.


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## richarddownunder (19 May 2021)

D_W said:


> same thing was covered pretty early, but I tried to do it subtle (but then followed by saying do it before jacob gets here - that probably wasn't that subtle), but the point being let's solve issues of unfinished edges (method problem), poor geometry (method problem) or crumbling steel (poor chisel quality) at once.
> 
> All can happen - solving a problem rather than just swinging a hammer is a bridge too far, though. The OP went back and sharpened what was probably a combination of the first two and moved on.
> 
> But every sharpening thread is like the BP oil spill - the slick left behind lasts for a while. We just want a little oil from the well, but eventually it gets spilled and everyone forgets what the well was for in the first place.


OK, well, I'll keep quiet, guess we don't need any more sharpening threads. I think it was Halliburton that caused the oil spill wasn't it?


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## D_W (19 May 2021)

richarddownunder said:


> OK, well, I'll keep quiet, guess we don't need any more sharpening threads. I think it was Halliburton that caused the oil spill wasn't it?



I don't recall re: the BP spill. 

Your post was on target, though - set the geometry and prep to finish the apex and then finish the apex. Guide leads to success for anyone who doesn't do it all the time. Legitimate or reasoned suggestions for sharpening or experimenting to get results are always lost among the "there's only one way to do it" or the "if you finish above 1000 grit, you're just wasting your time doing modern woodworking" and such things.


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