# Which Shoulder Plane



## andrewm (17 Feb 2005)

I have decided that I need a shoulder plane of some description and since I am in the fortunate position of having a trip to the States coming up next month thought I might investigate getting one over there. It should be below my personal allowance for bringing back with me. 

I have heard a lot of good things said about the Lee Valley / Veritas planes so thought that maybe I would go for one of those, especially as they seem to be quite a bit cheaper on the other side of the pond. 

So, if you could choose just one which would it be, large medium or small? Is there anything else that I should take into account?

I am hoping to spend a couple of days in Atlanta and get to visit Highland Hardware, a place that seems to get plenty of mentions on the rec although they don’t seem to sell the Lee Valley / Veritas range. However I am also going to be in New Orleans so might find something there.

What would you do?

Andrew


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## Alf (17 Feb 2005)

Andrew,

Depends on the scale of stuff you tend to make. Personally I'd go for the medium _first_ (see where I'm going with this? :wink: ). I always get myself muddled up on this, but I believe the only problem is you'll have to order direct from Lee Valley. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong - like Rob f'rinstance. :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (17 Feb 2005)

Dunno what HH sell these days but I went to the Olympics in 1996 and somehow ended up spending a day in the place. It was a revelation!

The staff were knowledgeable, helpful and friendly and the stuff they had was beyond belief (mind you, I was nine years more ignorant then!).

Definitely worth a visit I should say.


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## Frank D. (17 Feb 2005)

Hi Andrewm,
As Alf saif it really depends on what you make. I know I'd go for the large first, because I like the wider blade and better grip it offers (BTW, I have the medium and I've used the large quite a bit).
I just wanted to say that in the states, the only real alternative to LV would be either Stanley or LN. The LN medium is an entirely different beast than the LV, IMO there's no comparison, the LV is better all around. The LN 073 is their large shopulder plane, it's the one I have and I like it a lot, but if I had to buy again I'd buy the LV version. They have made some definite improvements on design (set screws, little knobs and a hole for better grip) which make it an easier plane to use. Stanleys can be good planes, but quality isn't as consistent and, when you can find them, they aren't that cheap. You can also find nice Clifton shoulder planes here, but they might not be a good deal for you...
The only place you can buy direct, as far as I know, is in Candada. However, I do know of one retailer in the States that carries some Veritas products, Japan Woodworker, but they're in CA. You might want to email LV and see if there are any in the area you'll be visiting. Otherwise the best alternative, if possible, would be for you to order online and have it sent to an address that you'll be visiting or a place that can keep it for you--a friend's or an acquaintance's house (one that you can trust with a nice shoulder plane :wink: ) or a company office if you're going there to work..
Have a nice trip,
Frank D.


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## Anonymous (17 Feb 2005)

GLOAT ALERT

I have the Large, medium and Bullnose veritas shoulder planes and can only recommend all 3 of them as excellent and outstadning in every way 

However, if it were only one, then I would go for this order

1 Large shoulder
2 Bullnose
3 Medium shoulder


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## Frank D. (17 Feb 2005)

Ah, I see why you're a moderator Tony, you have very good judgement :wink: .


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## Alf (17 Feb 2005)

Tony":3sic9uzy said:


> GLOAT ALERT


Inevitable really... :roll:


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## Frank D. (17 Feb 2005)

I guess I should post GLOAT ALERT under my avatar.... I like to mention the tools I use so I don't come off like someone who gives advice because s/he read a magazine article. Sorry if I upset those who have a more modest arsenal in their shop, it's not what tools you have in your shop but what comes out of it is what I always say. I know, I'll just stick it in my signature!
Frank D.


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## Frank D. (17 Feb 2005)

test


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## Anonymous (17 Feb 2005)

lol Frank - I think Tony's GLOAT ALERT was referring to his own gloat, rather than any in your post!

---- no gloats available at present ----


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## Alf (17 Feb 2005)

Gloat away, Frank. We _all_ have a bit of leeway to make up on _certain people_... :roll: :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (17 Feb 2005)

Just to be different...

My LN #73 is definately a "go to" tool... if I need it done right, first time, every time... this is a tool I can count on...


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## Scott (17 Feb 2005)

I have the LN 73 and it's a great tool......even though there's usually blood everywhere by the time I've had it out for 5 mins! - keep nicking my hands on the corners of the blade :roll: 

I'm thinking about getting a Veritas Bullnose too though. Like the look of it and have just had a good look at Alf's review


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## Frank D. (18 Feb 2005)

Espedair Street":1jaf97uw said:


> lol Frank - I think Tony's GLOAT ALERT was referring to his own gloat, rather than any in your post!


I know Espedair, but I figured if Tony gave an alert for three planes, I must have broken gloat etiquette quite early in my post. 
BTW Scott I have the bullnose too and love it. hehe... :lol: 
Frank


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## andrewm (18 Feb 2005)

Thanks all,

Since this is mainly to be used for building large pieces of furniture then maybe a large would be the best option. I hadn't realise that Lee Valley was only mail order, I'm sure I saw someone advertising them in FW but must check. Ordering ahead shouldn't be a problem provided they don't mind charging a UK credit card and delivering to a US address. 

What does ALF mean when she says " Personally I'd go for the medium _first_" :lol: 

Sounds like HH is a place to visit though, provided I have enough time. Just have to remember the luggage and duty-free allowances while there.

Andrew


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## bugbear (18 Feb 2005)

> What does ALF mean when she says " Personally I'd go for the medium first"



The meaning is self evident. She would seek John Edwards' advice on this important matter...

BugBear


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## Alf (18 Feb 2005)

Huh? :?


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## Chris Knight (18 Feb 2005)

bugbear":1tb2uz6e said:


> > What does ALF mean when she says " Personally I'd go for the medium first"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't you mean "Mystic Meg"?


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## Anonymous (18 Feb 2005)

andrewm":37ytcki9 said:


> Sounds like (Highland Hardware) is a place to visit though, provided I have enough time. Just have to remember the luggage and duty-free allowances while there.
> 
> Andrew



I'm spoiled, and jaded, since I happen to live within about 30 minutes drive from the place. And yes, it's so, so nice. Well worth an hour or so if you're anywhere near Atlanta, Georgia, USA.


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## DaveL (19 Feb 2005)

MikeC":2b4cmmlw said:


> andrewm":2b4cmmlw said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like (Highland Hardware) is a place to visit though, provided I have enough time. Just have to remember the luggage and duty-free allowances while there.
> ...



Well last year a friend of mine was visiting Atlanta and I asked him to call into Highland Hardware to pick up a couple of things for me. He is not into woodwork, not into tools, but came back full of how wonderful the shop was. All of the staff were helpful and the stock was *interesting*. 8)  

In fact he got into trouble for spending quite a time _'just looking'_ from his SWMBO :shock:


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## bugbear (19 Feb 2005)

Sorry; I thought the faking SOB (*) was well known.

http://www.re-quest.net/entertainment/m ... hn-edward/

BugBear

(*) No, I don't like people preying on the bereaved


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Mar 2005)

Hi Andrew

While you are requesting information about a suitable shoulder plane, I wonder what you have in mind when using it. While this may sound strange at first, there are two cuts that are required in tuning tenons. The first is the shoulder, the second is the tenon face. You do not need a wide shoulder plane for shoulders (3/4" should surfice). Most users use it for trimming tenon faces as well, so then prefer a wide (1"+ wide blade). Some prefer a heavy shoulder plane (such as the large LV or LN) but I like lighter planes that cut with a sharp blade. The correct plane for the tenon face is a screw cut block plane, such as the Stanley or LN #140. Since the Stanley is hard to get hold of, the LN is the obvious candidate, These come in LH and RH versions (while the Stanley only comes in a LH). 

If you are unfamiliar with the #140, it has a removable side, which allows it to plane against the shoulder wall.

Here is my (tuned) Stanley #140:

http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=1151

Incidentally, my personal range of shoulder planes includes vintage Stanley #92 and #93, and a HNT Gordon 3/4".

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Rob Lee (2 Mar 2005)

andrewm":1y3vpdbb said:


> (snip)
> 
> I am hoping to spend a couple of days in Atlanta and get to visit Highland Hardware, a place that seems to get plenty of mentions on the rec although they don’t seem to sell the Lee Valley / Veritas range. However I am also going to be in New Orleans so might find something there.
> 
> ...



Hi Andrew - 

Definitely visit HH while in the Atlanta area - it's well worth it. Unfortunately - Lee Valley is the only place you can buy Veritas planes in North America... in the UK, they're also available through numerous stockists - Brimarc can advise you about that better than I....

Something to think about if you're staying in the same place for a few days - is that you can place a mail-order for delivery to a hotel...as long as you do it far enough in advance. I've done it before... just have the shipper mark "hold for delivery to guest XXXXXXXX arriving MM/DD/YY" - and it shouldn't be a problem!

Enjoy your trip (snowed 1/2" in Atlanta yesterday...)

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Alf (2 Mar 2005)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> The correct plane for the tenon face is a screw cut block plane, such as the Stanley or LN #140.


Is there such a thing as a correct plane for tenon cheeks (faces)? I thought I was supposed to be aiming for cheeks spot on from the saw? (Aiming, not necessarily _hitting_) :wink: As to the whole wider plane to do tenon cheeks thing. We don't use a smoothing plane as wide as the panel we're cleaning up, so why do we need a plane as wide as the tenon cheek? Even I'm capable of moving a shoulder plane sideways and getting an acceptably level cheek. Not to say an extra plane is a Bad Thing (heaven forbid), but it seems to be a recent phenomenon. Sorry, Derek, not to get at you, just something that's been bothering me for a while now so I thought I'd share the botheration around a bit. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (2 Mar 2005)

Alf,

There is a correct plane for everything, why else do we need so many? :lol:


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## Rob Lee (2 Mar 2005)

Alf":19vupc2v said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > The correct plane for the tenon face is a screw cut block plane, such as the Stanley or LN #140.
> ...



Ah ... but I agree with him about the "skew" part though...an across-the-long-grain cut can roll fibres....it is a more desirable blade configuration.

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Mar 2005)

Hi Alf

Your terminology - tenon _cheek_ - is the correct one (not tenon _face_ - it's too late at night ... morning ... to think straight :? ). Still, you know what I meant.

There is no one way to trim cheeks. In addition to using a wide shoulder plane, as you say, many just prefer a wide chisel. But the best plane to use across the grain is a skew blade plane. Take another look at the picture of my #140. What you will notice is the smoothness of the cheek is so similar to the finish on the board face (on which I used a smoothing plane). If I used one of my shoulder planes for this cut, the timber would tear out (you would see the same thing when planing raised panels going across the grain). 

The intent of my earlier post was simply to highlight this option, and to raise Andrew's awareness that he had the opportunity to justify buying two planes and not just one!  

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (2 Mar 2005)

Dammit, chaps, you're all pushing me down The Slope! Talk about the biter bit... :shock: 

Okay, yes, I will admit even _el presidente's_ shouldery offerings don't make the neatest fist of the job. But in the great joint gluing scheme of things, does it _really_ matter? I mean honestly? Obviously you need one of every plane ever made, goes without saying, but the #140 is pretty spendy for a block plane with pretentions... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf

I will resist, I will resist, I will resist...


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## Midnight (2 Mar 2005)

> but the #140 is pretty spendy for a block plane with pretentions...



it's worth it though  one real cool aspect about it is... ye dinna need to limit its use to just tennon cheeks..


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## Rob Lee (2 Mar 2005)

Alf":1h8fygka said:


> (snip) ...
> 
> but the #140 is pretty spendy for a block plane with pretentions...
> 
> (snip)



.... at least until a cheek plane comes along.... :roll: 

Ta - 

Rob


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## Frank D. (2 Mar 2005)

Rob Lee":2xu3y9mb said:


> .... at least until a cheek plane comes along.... :roll:


Rob, are you teasing us again? When is it due to come out? :wink: 
FWIW, I use a 60.5R for cheeks and don't mind a little rolling now and then. After all, you don't see the tenons, most of the time :wink: . Plus those little splinters make a wonderful path for squeeze out. LV sells floating tenons which I sometimes use, and they have little grooves all the way along. With my 60.5 I get the grooves for free.
Frank D.


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## Rob Lee (2 Mar 2005)

Frank D.":2meyr966 said:


> Rob Lee":2meyr966 said:
> 
> 
> > .... at least until a cheek plane comes along.... :roll:
> ...



Hi Frank - 

That was a real long term tease 8) ... we have several others to do first. As you point out - there's no pressing need for it right away. Let just say it's a twinkle in a designer's eye ....

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Neil (3 Mar 2005)

Rob Lee":2bzt2naa said:


> That was a real long term tease 8) ... we have several others to do first



I'm dreaming that a compass plane is higher up the list - drooling at the thought of what the Veritas engineers could come up with for this  

Cheers,
Neil


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## Scott (3 Mar 2005)

I'll second that Neil!


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## andrewm (4 Mar 2005)

Well, I've gone and ordered a Lee Valley medium sholder plane. It was a close run thing between the large and the medium but I can always go back for the large next year. Hopefully it will arrive before I get there. But that will leave me with ten days owning a new tool and not being able to use it. Oh, the anticipation.

Thanks for all your input all.

Andrew


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## Alf (4 Mar 2005)

andrewm":2vdt48r4 said:


> but I can always go back for the large next year.


Muttley_esque_ snigger :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (4 Mar 2005)

You mean this snigger


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## Alf (4 Mar 2005)

That's the one. :twisted:


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