# Re-plate a saw



## MickCheese (6 Nov 2012)

Help from a metal worker needed

I am trying to re-plate one of my tenon saws. I have removed the old blade, filed the new blade to shape but am now stuck.

I want to drill the two holes for the saw nuts.

I have punched a dot, got out my best HSS drills and not even managed to scratch the surface of the plate.

I'm using a handheld drill at it's slowest speed with a 4mm drill bit.

Is it a cobalt drill I need?

Mick


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## Racers (6 Nov 2012)

Hi, Mick

Yep

Pete


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## MickCheese (6 Nov 2012)

Thanks Pete

Will pop in to Axminster this afternoon.

Mick


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## Richard T (6 Nov 2012)

Hi Mick -

It is very much easier to punch holes in thin sheet. If you drill a hole the right size or just a tad over in a small, steel block, hold the block in the vice and punch through with a round, flat ended punch into the hole in the block. 

It will stretch the steel out on the exit side so this will need to be hammered back flat. I know it might sound daunting but is surprisingly easy with a bit of practise. The hardest part is getting the punch and hole lined up when you can't see the hole for the saw. :shock: But if it's not lined up, it won't go. 

Finding a friendly soul with a fly press might be preferable but doing it yourself, by hand is a great trick once practised a bit. I wonder how Pedder does it ???


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Nov 2012)

Drilling sheet material, especially hard sheet material, is a pretty challenging task. As Richard says, punching is a good option, but it does need some special kit rigged up to get reasonable accuracy of positioning and a good finish to the edge.

For a one-off job, I think I'd be tempted to drill a smaller hole (3mm, say) with either a Cobalt HSS drill or a masonry drill. Use something solid clamped behind the hole to receive the drill - a block of mild steel or similar chunk of solid scrap (a very hard wood might just do) - because the drill will 'catch' as it breaks through if you don't. That will leave a ragged edge at best, at worst it'll snatch the drill out of your hand and probably break the bit. So clamp the job down very firmly, and very close to the hole so that the sheet can't lift as the drill breaks through (a piece of something hard with a 1/2" hole to poke the drill through would help, so you end up with a sandwich of two solid packers and the sawblade as the filling, clamped up tight). Lubricant helps too - a proprietary metal cutting compound like Trefolex or Rocol RTD if you've got any, but even a drop of oil will help a bit if you haven't.

Once you've got the pilot holes in, push the handle into place, and use the holes in the handle as a guide to file out the rest of the material. You'll have to start with a needle file, then maybe a small fine-toothed rat-tail file - finish with the biggest round file you can get into the hole. It'll go quicker than you think, and with a bit of care you can end up with nicely finished holes in the blade, accurately aligned with the handle holes. Keep filing until the sawscrews just - only just - go through.

DON'T try to drill full size unless you build a jig with drill guides to stop the drill wandering - in sheet stuff, it'll go all sorts of ways as it breaks through.

Good luck!


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## xy mosian (6 Nov 2012)

You know what the 'net is like, you read something, remember it, and then forget just where you read it. Don't ask me where I read this, or whether it works. The context was a fellow making a frame saw, wondering how to put holes in the blade. The answer was to put a six", large, nail with its point cut off into the drill pres. This was run into the 'blade' until the 'blade' blued. At this point the blued area was softened to the point at which it could be drilled with a HSS twist drill. Apparently the operation was successful. I have not needed to do this and so cannot say that it will work. Should the need arise I will certainly be trying the method out.
xy


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## Duncan Murray (6 Nov 2012)

Mick

Bob Rozaieski does it in this video:

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2010/06/episode-24/ 

Also available through iTunes as the Hand Tools and Techniques podcast.

The bit about drilling through the saw plate starts at approx 20:00 in.
Regards

Duncan


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## Racers (6 Nov 2012)

Hi, Mick

Drilling through the handle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_qf9QGHfBg 3:10 onwards.


Pete


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## mickthetree (6 Nov 2012)

or you could pop into lords.... ;-)


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## Dangermouse (6 Nov 2012)

Just thought I'd say, what ever you do make sure the work piece is clamped very very well, and if your using an electric hand drill put it in a drill stand. The best thing is to use a proper drill press and clamp, this is safe. If its not clamped safely you could loose a finger or two if the thin sheet catches on the bit and spins round like a motorised knife.


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## jimi43 (6 Nov 2012)

Now you have two reasons to stop by for a coffee....you need to use this:







I haven't used it on spring steel but I put a perfect hole in 2mm steel (with a bit of a strain!) with it so it should work fine!






Cheers

Jim


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## xy mosian (6 Nov 2012)

Just to fully agree with Dangermouse. The only thing I would add is that it is a good idea to clamp the blade in such a way that the 'free' end is resting against the pillar of the drill. It saves a brown trouser moment when the thing does spin, and it saves a ding to the back of the blade at the same time.
xy


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## Richard T (6 Nov 2012)

That's an interesting thingamajobby Jim - does it just punch one size or are there extra bits?


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## jimi43 (6 Nov 2012)

Richard T":238kqgtq said:


> That's an interesting thingamajobby Jim - does it just punch one size or are there extra bits?



Indeed! It's a Roper Whitney punch...'Merican of course.





Click image for link to their website page for the modern version.

Another bootfair find for a few bob with the thought that "I could use that one decade!" :mrgreen: 

The hole looks like "saw screw" size...but I didn't measure it. 8) 

You can change the little insert for various sizes within a range.

Jim


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## pedder (6 Nov 2012)

MickCheese":3z5x0f2h said:


> Help from a metal worker needed
> 
> I am trying to re-plate one of my tenon saws. I have removed the old blade, filed the new blade to shape but am now stuck.
> 
> I want to drill the two holes for the saw nuts.



Hi Mick,

I use a handpunch up to 0,5mm:






This was bought via Ebay UK and a fellow from ukw helped me, to get it cross noth sea. 

Thicker blades get drilled with King universal drill bits: http://www.kingwerkzeuge.de/universalbohrer.php

These are sharpened masonry drill bits, wich you can easily make yourself, if you have abench grinder. A friend of mine even drill plane blades with them.

Cheers Pedder


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## MickCheese (6 Nov 2012)

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. This afternoon I tried a 2.5mm cobalt drill............. And broke it almost immediately. 

The 4mm one would not even mark the plate. 

I think I will take Jim up on his kind offer and arrange to pop over to him next time I'm in his area and get him to punch it. I can also take my dado plane and get him to help me set it up too so kill two birds with one stone. 

I have to admit the thought of getting through the plate, catching the hole and watching as it turns into a very sharp windmill did fill me with a little trepidation. 

Regards

Mick


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## jimi43 (6 Nov 2012)

Sure Mick...you are most welcome. I am working this weekend coming but apart from that fairly free after tomorrow.

Nice to see the Meister Saw Smith uses the modern version of mine! A pound well spent! :mrgreen: 

If that doesn't work we can always mill a hole in it! 8) (you have no idea how long I have waited to say that!)  

Jim


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## Jelly (6 Nov 2012)

You seem to be sorted, but in case your sawplate also defeats Jim's punch, have you considered asking a local fabricators or garage* if they can do it for you? There's at least a fighting chance that they'll have a Stellite, TCT or even diamond tipped bit that's up to the task...

*It would have to be that rare kind of garage that can still fix _Everything_ if neccesary, I suspect many mechanics will no longer have the need for a drill-press


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## dickm (6 Nov 2012)

Would the sort of hole punch used to put holes in car body panels prior to joining them as imitation spot welds be any good? Can't remember what the tool is called, but it looks like a modern cheap version of Jimi's device


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## jimi43 (6 Nov 2012)

I will try the punch on a piece of spring steel I have knocking about and see if it does the job and measure the diameter just in case.

Will let you know

Cheers

Jim


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## pedder (6 Nov 2012)

this hardened spring steel is tougher than one would think. I'd give a sharpened masonry drill bits a try.

Cheers Pedder


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## GazPal (7 Nov 2012)

pedder":l8g7uerd said:


> this hardened spring steel is tougher than one would think. I'd give a sharpened masonry drill bits a try.
> 
> Cheers Pedder



I was just about to suggest carbide tipped masonry bits, but Pedder beat me to it.


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## Shrubby (11 Nov 2012)

Given the prices for HI-ROC drills for hard metals I've always used the Multiconstruction/Heller Allmat drills. They are sharpened non-hammer masonry drills (look similar to Pedder's suggestion)
Matt


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## MickCheese (11 Nov 2012)

Matt

I've just looked at Amazon for these drills. A set is £40. 

I'm popping over to see Jim after work tomorrow afternoon so will try his punch to see if this works first. 

Will let you all know how we get on. 

Mick


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## Shrubby (11 Nov 2012)

Amazon is expensive then!
Ebay set of 4 Bosch multiconstruction £6.99
Most tools shops have them or an equivalent Alpen/heller/Kwb etc 
I wouldn't want you to knacker Jim's lovely punch - try anealling a spot on the blade with a small gas torch or something
Matt


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## jimi43 (11 Nov 2012)

I'm sure it will punch through...it's exactly the same one that Pedder uses but I only have one size...still you can then ream it out.

We could always get ALFIE to bite it! :mrgreen: 

See you in the afternoon...I'll get the coffee on!

Jim


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## bugbear (12 Nov 2012)

GazPal":1sn0ka22 said:


> pedder":1sn0ka22 said:
> 
> 
> > this hardened spring steel is tougher than one would think. I'd give a sharpened masonry drill bits a try.
> ...



One would presumably need to sharpen them - they're pretty blunt "as supplied", evem if they're hard.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (12 Nov 2012)

Oh ye doubters!!!







Piece of cake!






No annealing required...not even sitting on it! :mrgreen: 

And Mick...you are pretty accurate with that there tool.....






Nice chatting to you again! Good luck with that Syms plane...it is a beauty!

Cheers

Jim


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## MickCheese (12 Nov 2012)

Jim

Thanks for the help, the coffee and the loan of the tool. I thought it would be more difficult than that, went through like it was a piece of card.

Just got to re-assemble it and cut those teeth, the scary bit.

Mick


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## jimi43 (12 Nov 2012)

MickCheese":2hyaejt9 said:


> Jim
> 
> Thanks for the help, the coffee and the loan of the tool. I thought it would be more difficult than that, went through like it was a piece of card.
> 
> ...



A pleasure just to say not all the strange tools I get at bootfairs are a waste of time. I am not surprised it went through so easily...as we found it exerts 1.2 tons of pressure at that small point!

Looking forward to seeing the saw finished.

Cheers mate

Jim


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## MickCheese (14 Nov 2012)

Put the saw back together again today with the new blade.

Strangely the original blade was not fully captured by the brass back so when I put the back on with the blade fully inserted into the spline the handle wouldn't line up with the holes. In order to get the holes to line up I had to pull the blade from the brass back by about 10mm.

Anyway all seems to be tight fitting now.






Something missing from this saw though! Must cut some teeth.

Now I have never done this before so am a bit apprehensive about doing this. I seem to remember someone posting a link to a set of paper measures that you can print out to stick to the saw to get the spacing right, must do a search for that and give that a try.

Think I will look to give this about 14tpi as I have a 12 and a 16, I find I use the 16 more than the 12 but it is a bit fine so a 14 will be just right.

Maybe of course I use the 16 more just because it is a better saw.

Here is a picture of the other side.






And a close up of the saw nuts with USE written thereon, the brass back has R Groves & sons Sheffield stamped on it.






So what does USE mean? Am I being thick and it's obvious?

Mick


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## Racers (14 Nov 2012)

Hi, Mick

Bugbear has/had them on his site, he should be along shortly.

The one I did I slowly cut the teeth in about 8 passes a couple of strokes on each tooth, so you can tell by the flats thet get left if you are drifting onr way or the other.
It went fairly quickly I seem to remember.

Pete


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## Harbo (14 Nov 2012)

The "Book" has them in Sheffield 1822 to 1911 at the Bee Hive Works (Ltd by 1903)
"Queen Bee" saw? Mark: USE
(Succeeded by Moses Eadon)
(sons: Thomas & William Groves)

Not very helpful unless it means use?


Rod


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## Sheffield Tony (14 Nov 2012)

MickCheese":19tdx0bk said:


> Something missing from this saw though! Must cut some teeth.
> 
> Now I have never done this before so am a bit apprehensive about doing this. I seem to remember someone posting a link to a set of paper measures that you can print out to stick to the saw to get the spacing right, must do a search for that and give that a try.



I gave this a go on a S&J tenon saw, which had teeth ruined by erratic filing at some stage. The templates I found were meant to be folded over the edge of the saw. The trouble I had - apart from needing to visit an optician - was that the file obscured the view, making it hard to start the cut accurately. I had a much better result by first making a small nick with a (fairly blunt) junior hacksaw, then finding those with the saw file on the second pass.

To my great surprise, the saw cut quite well when finished.


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## bugbear (14 Nov 2012)

Racers":142jz0fs said:


> Hi, Mick
> 
> Bugbear has/had them on his site, he should be along shortly.
> 
> ...



Lots of good stuff (including the templates) in this thread.

life-after-death-for-my-back-saw-t54710.html

BugBea


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## jimi43 (14 Nov 2012)

Looking fantastic Mick! 

Shame the holes didn't line up...you could always punch a few more! :mrgreen: 

I suppose you are going "rip" cut?

Jim


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## pedder (14 Nov 2012)

Hi Mick, that's looking good.



MickCheese":a74253ds said:


> Strangely the original blade was not fully captured by the brass back so when I put the back on with the blade fully inserted into the spline the handle wouldn't line up with the holes. In order to get the holes to line up I had to pull the blade from the brass back by about 10mm.



I never found a blade going the full way to the bow. They're hold by clamping presure. 



MickCheese":a74253ds said:


> Think I will look to give this about 14tpi as I have a 12 and a 16, I find I use the 16 more than the 12 but it is a bit fine so a 14 will be just right.
> Maybe of course I use the 16 more just because it is a better saw.



I've recut teeth with old saw blades as pattern. 14 tpi is a good an very usual size. Good paper patterns on Leif's page 
http://norsewoodsmith.com/files/file/sa ... plates.pdf 

Cheers Pedder


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## MickCheese (14 Nov 2012)

I like to thank all who have helped (you know who you are), given advice or just offered encouragement. I've really enjoyed doing this and once I've cut the teeth will report back. 

Pedder

Using an old blade is a good idea but the old one is finer. Will try the paper patterns, if it all goes wrong I will file them off and pop it up to Southern Saws in High Wycombe who will do it properly.  

Mick


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## baldpate (16 Nov 2012)

Mick,

if it's not too late, I'd like to add a couple of things I've learned since my experience of re-cutting teeth (in the thread to which bugbear linked, 4 posts back).

a) _DO_ follow Sheffield Tony's advice, when using bugbear's template, to mark/indent the starting positions off the new teeth with some tool, other than just setting to with the saw file. I have become convinced on reflection that my own problems (uneven spacing) arose right from the outset with slightly inaccurate starting positions. I subsequently looked for a tool with a fine hard edge which could be accurately positioned on the template and then struck sharply to make a slight indent which would guide the subsequent initial file cut. I experimented with a small cold chisel (suggested by one poster), but found that it was quickly blunted by a saw plate; I then found in my toolbox an old glass-cutter with a big V-shaped piece of carbide at the business end, which seems to do the job. Sheffield Tony suggests a hacksaw blade.

b) Once you've started filing, it's easy to loose track of which teeth you've filed and which not. One standard suggestion is to use a marker pen. I found that the ordinary ones you get from stationers are next to useless - the part-cut teeth very quickly turn the tip into a fibrous mess, and the ink flow is poor. I've now discovered Sharpie Magnums (the largest one Sharpie makes, I believe) which not only has a big barrel with a large ink reservoir, but also a very fat tip - fat enough that the saw cuts a _groove_ in it, rather than tearing the tip to bits. Well worth the few pounds extra it costs.

Good luck with your re-toothing! Do let us know how you get on.

Chris


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## bugbear (17 Nov 2012)

baldpate":3traezjr said:


> I subsequently looked for a tool with a fine hard edge which could be accurately positioned on the template and then struck sharply to make a slight indent which would guide the subsequent initial file cut. I experimented with a small cold chisel (suggested by one poster), but found that it was quickly blunted by a saw plate;



Wow.

BugBear


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## Jacob (17 Nov 2012)

Paul Sellers has a neat and easy method for cutting new teeth.
http://paulsellers.com/2012/11/recuttin ... hat-works/
Haven't tried it but it looks good to me.


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## xy mosian (17 Nov 2012)

Jacob":2bldcujb said:


> Paul Sellers has a neat and easy method for cutting new teeth.
> http://paulsellers.com/2012/11/recuttin ... hat-works/
> Haven't tried it but it looks good to me.



Looks good to me too, must remember. Thanks Jacob
xy


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## MickCheese (17 Nov 2012)

Jacob":1lwiqwxn said:


> Paul Sellers has a neat and easy method for cutting new teeth.
> http://paulsellers.com/2012/11/recuttin ... hat-works/
> Haven't tried it but it looks good to me.



Thanks Jacob looks interesting. 

Tried the paper template but just made a real mess of the paper and lost the ability to track the spacing accurately. 

Have filed the blade flat and smooth again so will start again. Need some sort or guide so Paul Sellers one looks like its worth a try. 

Mick


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## xy mosian (17 Nov 2012)

With reference to the Sellers guide. It would not take too much extra effort to angle the marks to match the angles of cross cut teeth, alternate teeth one way of course. A second guide, other angle, for the intermediate teeth.
xy


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## Jacob (17 Nov 2012)

xy mosian":368yabeh said:


> With reference to the Sellers guide. It would not take too much extra effort to angle the marks to match the angles of cross cut teeth, alternate teeth one way of course. A second guide, other angle, for the intermediate teeth.
> xy


Another good idea which I haven't tried yet: Sellers suggests somewhere that anything with more than 9tpi(?*) might as well be filed straight across like a rip saw. Makes life a lot easier esp with fine teeth, and you can do them all from one side.
* I think it was 9tpi, I'll see if I can find it again.


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## pedder (18 Nov 2012)

Jacob":3i9lqkjg said:


> Another good idea which I haven't tried yet: Sellers suggests somewhere that anything with more than 9tpi(?*) might as well be filed straight across like a rip saw. Makes life a lot easier esp with fine teeth, and you can do them all from one side.



That wouldn't be a good reason to forgo the softness and the clean cut of a real crosscut filed saw. 

Many saw maker file all crosscut teeth from the same side. One just has to invert the fleam angle.
http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2010/06/1 ... ams-razor/ 

The wooden pattern looks good, but why invest a lot of work in a uncertain wooden pattern, while there are so many cheap certain metal pattern (saws) in the car boots?

For fine dovetail saws I used hacksaw blades 18 tpi for a long time.

Cheers 
Pedder


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## bugbear (18 Nov 2012)

MickCheese":3n6eew2u said:


> Tried the paper template but just made a real mess of the paper and lost the ability to track the spacing accurately.



The paper only survives long enough to make a mark - but once you've got a mark, you're then into normal sharpening techniques - increasing gullet depth while making sure the spacing stays even.

One advantage of the laser printed template is that you can easily have spacings that don't appear on rules, like 9 TPI, or gradated spacings.

My original templates were stuck on one side only, but the "wrap-over" style is a bit more durable in use.

BugBear


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## bugbear (18 Nov 2012)

Jacob":gi8sxi01 said:


> xy mosian":gi8sxi01 said:
> 
> 
> > With reference to the Sellers guide. It would not take too much extra effort to angle the marks to match the angles of cross cut teeth, alternate teeth one way of course. A second guide, other angle, for the intermediate teeth.
> ...



I think Tage Frid was the first notable proponent of that idea, back in the 90's.

Personally, I find cross cut filing gives cleaner cuts - fleam angles evolved for purely practical reasons.

BugBear


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## MickCheese (18 Nov 2012)

Have a few days off next week so it's on my list to try again.

I need a finer rip cut saw so that is my intention.

Have found an old blade that seems the right pitch so will try using that as a template.

I have nothing to lose and am enjoying the experience but at the end of the day I really want a usable saw.

Will keep you informed. (hammer) 

Mick


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## MickCheese (24 Nov 2012)

Just an update

Have just spent an hour cutting teeth and sharpening the saw.

Didn't come out so bad. I took Pedder's advice and used an old saw blade. I clamped it to the new blade a little high and used it as a template. Sharpened as a rip for a few reasons, one was it was easier as it's my first try at cutting new teeth, another is I don't have a larger rip tenon saw.







Cuts quite well.

Really enjoyed doing this as the original saw was just junk and I have revived it.

Mick

Edit .... There really are teeth on the saw even though the pic is not too clear.


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## xy mosian (24 Nov 2012)

Well done Mick. =D> 
xy


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## baldpate (24 Nov 2012)

Well done, indeed! I know from first hand experience what effort it must take to get a result like that. 

Chris


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## jimi43 (24 Nov 2012)

You're a braver man than me Mick!

I've taken one look at what's involved in this saw doctor thing and decided that it would be better to send it to one!

I salute you sir! =D> =D> 

Cheers

Jim


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## pedder (24 Nov 2012)

Hi Mick,

Great you did it! It isn't that hart, is it? 

Now follow Alf's guide and try crosscut:

viewtopic.php?p=127911#127911

Cheers 
Pedder


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## MickCheese (25 Nov 2012)

pedder":nffrh08m said:


> Hi Mick,
> 
> Great you did it! It isn't that hart, is it?
> 
> ...



Pedder

I needed a sit down after the rip, the crosscut will have to wait until I am braver  

Just to prove there are teeth.






Mick


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