# Clico - End of an Era



## Vann (14 Jul 2015)

Not wanting to hijack the thread on Clifton block planes (especially as they're no longer part of Clico), I want to lament the end of Clico. I had not realised they went into voluntary liquidation until Sheffield Tony posted this on the other thread:



Sheffield Tony":342na834 said:


> I think the drills and such remained with Clico, rather than going to Thomas Flinn. Which is bad news, given this, which I somehow missed:
> 
> https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2253731/


which has deeper implications.

It seems to me that Clifton was set up, not to be a viable profit-making business, but more as a hobby for director Alan Reid. With his retirement last year, there was no incentive to keep this extremely marginal business going (in fact I suspect it was in serious dept - hence the liquidation). Fortunately, it appears he was able to flick the planemaking division off to Thomas Flinn & Co. before the ship sank.

Several years ago Andy King visited the then Clifton works, the old Morrisons Burton Weir works, and wrote an article titled _From Mighty Oaks_. http://www.getwoodworking.com/news/arti ... y-oaks/917

In this article, refering to the manufacter of augers, he notes:
_Sadly, this hand-forging is an art that’s practised ever less widely. At one time, Alan tells me, factories across Europe employed as many as 3000 people who were capable of turning out hand-forged augers. Today, he maintains, there’re just 28 people with the necessary skill, and one company employing them — Clico. As long as Burton Weir’s working, though, the skill won’t die out.
_
Well, it looks likes that's over, and with it all those old skills die - no longer viable in this modern world.

One faint glimmer of hope lies in this quote from a British retailer's website:
_Made in Sheffield, UK by Clico. (sadly Clico have now closed but production may be taken up by someone else)_

But it's now 7 months since Clico went down, I wonder if there's still a chance?

Cheers, Vann.


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## Biliphuster (14 Jul 2015)

There were 28 people with the skills, I imagine the tooling could be picked up cheap from the ex Clifton works (unless they have been scrapped), so it's possible if the will or demand is there then production could be set up gain, the skill won't be truly lost for another 10-15 years.

The £20-30 retail price is about as much as the market can bear for drill bits I imagine, but the difficulty in buying second hand bits with square taper shanks (ie making sure the leadscrew is good from a dodgy photo) and the dwindling stock of NOS bits might make this a worthwhile enterprise.


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## thomasflinn (15 Jul 2015)

I do have some oddments of chisels and bits from the liquidation sale and 2 Jennings pattern bits (1 x 3/4" and 1 x 1 1/4"). Any decent stock was sold off a long while ago so it was really only oddments left. 

There was only about 6 guys realistically in the auger department by the way. 2 more staff were interchangeable with the planes and the augers.


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## AndyT (15 Jul 2015)

I suggest that any chairmakers wanting proper spoon bits who have not got round to buying Clico bits do so now, from one of the retailers who still has stock. They are £20 - £30 each but almost unobtainable on the secondhand market, unlike the auger bits, where presumably s/h bits were Clico's main competitor.


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## CStanford (15 Jul 2015)

Are the spoon bits available from Lee Valley by Clico? Judging by the price I don't think so but I'm curious anyway:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.a ... 42337&ap=1


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## AndyT (15 Jul 2015)

CStanford":387m6p7c said:


> Are the spoon bits available from Lee Valley by Clico? Judging by the price I don't think so but I'm curious anyway:
> 
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.a ... 42337&ap=1



They look quite different so I guess not.


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## CStanford (15 Jul 2015)

Interesting:

http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=120

https://books.google.com/books?id=uRXCA ... it&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=HDBRA ... it&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=_uIXP ... it&f=false


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## RossJarvis (15 Jul 2015)

Having lived in Sheffield I feel very sad that yet more of the past is going.


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## deema (16 Jul 2015)

There stuff was and is brilliant. All my bits, mortice chisels and sharpeners for the hollow chisels are Clico. I was really depressed to hear of its demise. There service was brilliant, and knowledge superb. Another bit of our once world class woodworking tool history extinct.


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## CStanford (16 Jul 2015)

Essentially the UK version of Lie-Nielsen at a point in time but obviously something went awry in the marketplace, the business model or execution thereof.

It is a shame.


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## Vann (16 Jul 2015)

RossJarvis":dkk20l86 said:


> Having lived in Sheffield I feel very sad that yet more of the past is going.


Yes. But it's not just another bit going, this was the very last bit. As deema says, the skill of hand making auger bits is now extinct (in the western world at least).

I'll take my share of the blame. I own just one Clico auger bit (bought as that was one size I couldn't find in good condition second hand - and because I wanted to see what a well made new auger looks like :roll: - having also bought a brand new Irwin auger bit #-o )

Cheers, Vann.

* I have two Clifton planes and some spare irons - but that's not the traditional skill loss I'm lamenting here.


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## Andy Kev. (17 Jul 2015)

This is sad news for all the reasons already mentioned.

On a personal note, I'm hacked off because I'd decided to use the money from my change tin, once it was full, to buy a set of Clico augur bits complete with tool roll and now I've missed the bus (it's a big tin and takes about 18 months to fill up). I think it may have been Toolnut which offered them. Does anybody happen to know if any firm bought up the last stock?


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## Vann (17 Jul 2015)

Andy Kev.":39ytpn3p said:


> On a personal note, I'm hacked off because I'd decided to use the money from my change tin, once it was full, to buy a set of Clico augur bits complete with tool roll and now I've missed the bus...


When I wanted a Clifton cutting iron and 2-piece cap-iron for my Record No.08 I found that UK retailers kept minimal stock got (they could fill their orders direct from Clifton/Clico) and as Clifton No.8 irons had gone out of production several months earlier, I was out of luck. In the end I got the Clifton cutting iron from the USA, and the cap-iron from Germany. Offshore retailers obviously keep more stock due to longer delivery times.

So you might want to surf some overseas websites to see what they have in stock. Good luck.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Sheffield Tony (6 Aug 2015)

thomasflinn":3094aeal said:


> I do have some oddments of chisels and bits from the liquidation sale and 2 Jennings pattern bits (1 x 3/4" and 1 x 1 1/4"). Any decent stock was sold off a long while ago so it was really only oddments left.



I hear a rumour (second time today, must stop spreading gossip) that Ray Iles may have bought some of the stock ?


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## Biliphuster (6 Aug 2015)

If true, that is great news, Ray is certainly doing more than his fair share to keep UK toolmaking going.

I believe he already sells some barrel eye augers, though I don't know if he makes them himself.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Barrel-eye-sc ... 2a2ecf42c8


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## custard (7 Aug 2015)

Clico made my favourite router tooling for inlaying stringing lines, a 1.6mm bit in HSS, it seems to give a cleaner cut in difficult woods than any of the other brands I've tried. I don't know if these will continue to be produced but just in case I've picked up a few along with some hollow chisel augers.


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## Vann (7 Aug 2015)

custard":2lvmfclp said:


> I don't know if these will continue to be produced...


As I understand it Clico is dead. It's now 8 months since they went into liqudation. I would guess that if someone had taken it over as a going concern we'd have heard - but I presume the few remaining staff have now dispersed to other jobs or retirement.

If you like their tooling, buy up what remaining stock you can, while you can.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Tony Zaffuto (7 Aug 2015)

Here in the US, "The Best Things" still has "chairmaker bits" and spokeshaves.


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## Chronosoft (12 Sep 2015)

I may have mentioned this before but I went to see Alan Reid with my old business in 2002 to see about getting him on the Internet with a web presence. I tried to explain that people made their buying decisions at all hours not just 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and ring us and we will send you a catalog out was dying. I found him dismissive and arrogant and not the least bit bothered about the plane making side of things. He told me that aircraft tooling was his bread and butter and the plane making was largely irrelevant to the business. I guess he steered the other side of his business into the ditch too.

I don't resonate with the opinion he was retiring so he thought voluntary liquidation, the sensible thing is to sell it on and profit from the last 30 years graft?


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## Vann (13 Sep 2015)

Chronosoft":qmqa5oni said:


> I may have mentioned this before but I went to see Alan Reid with my old business in 2002 to see about getting him on the Internet with a web presence. I tried to explain that people made their buying decisions at all hours not just 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and ring us and we will send you a catalog out was dying. I found him dismissive and arrogant and not the least bit bothered about the plane making side of things. He told me that aircraft tooling was his bread and butter and the plane making was largely irrelevant to the business. I guess he steered the other side of his business into the ditch too.
> 
> I don't resonate with the opinion he was retiring so he thought voluntary liquidation, the sensible thing is to sell it on and profit from the last 30 years graft?


I can't find it in myself to be critical of Alan Reid - if it wasn't for his interest in making handplanes, Clifton might never have existed. It's just a pity he didn't have a similar interest in _selling_ them...

Cheers, Vann.


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## D_W (14 Sep 2015)

There's obviously a huge market for gentleman's tools here in the US. I have never seen a clifton plane in person, and no effort was made here to tell us why anyone should buy them. 

There's enough market that I think that was a mistake, as LN had employed at least 80 people making mostly planes by the time I got into woodworking. 

I'd have liked to have tried one of their irons back when I had premium planes, but they were always priced at the moon here, like $80 or $100 or more if a cap iron was included, and I could never see on in person anywhere which wasn't the case for other things. 

A shame they couldn't continue making.


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## Vann (15 Sep 2015)

D_W":1w50q3o4 said:


> A shame they couldn't continue making.


It's a good thing they sold off the planemaking division as a going concern.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Tony Zaffuto (15 Sep 2015)

D_W":3v6pygwz said:


> There's obviously a huge market for gentleman's tools here in the US. I have never seen a clifton plane in person, and no effort was made here to tell us why anyone should buy them.
> 
> There's enough market that I think that was a mistake, as LN had employed at least 80 people making mostly planes by the time I got into woodworking.
> 
> ...



Dayam DW (for us Yanks, I keep thinking of NASCAR's Daryl Waltrip's use of DW as his screen initials), I just live up the road 80 or 90 miles and I have a Clifton #3 that is my favorite smoother. I also have several of the Clico 2 piece chipbreakers on other planes, as the design facilitates easy, frequent honing. You may also want to take a look at the Ray Isles (I believe) carbon steel irons. I put one in a 60-1/2 that needed a need blade and I like everything about it (though a statement about a block plane blade does not say much!).

I'm not sure of the exact composition of Clifton's "forged" blades or Ray Isles' carbon steel, but both have a far better feel than any A2 and most US replacement irons, seeming closer to vintage Sheffield steels. Instead of reinventing the wheel for replacement irons, might be nice if a US maker would just duplicate irons of old? 

So DW, why not stroll down the road to the Ross Park Rockler and convince the clerks to get a few Clico irons and chipbreakers on the shelf? Those guys are all woodworkers and a couple of them are handtool guys. Failing that, I might have to send you my #3 to try for a week or two.

T.Z.


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## custard (15 Sep 2015)

Tony Zaffuto":3brawcdl said:


> I just live up the road 80 or 90 miles




80 or 90 miles is not "just up the road". That's a major expedition requiring a lot of planning and probably a packed lunch!


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## Tony Zaffuto (15 Sep 2015)

custard":1ocfuja2 said:


> Tony Zaffuto":1ocfuja2 said:
> 
> 
> > I just live up the road 80 or 90 miles
> ...



Nah! I'm in his area at least once a week, sometimes more (you UK guys got to remember we put the "horse & carriages" out to pasture at least a year or two ago over here in the "new world"!).


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## D_W (15 Sep 2015)

Tony Zaffuto":158jlhs1 said:


> D_W":158jlhs1 said:
> 
> 
> > There's obviously a huge market for gentleman's tools here in the US. I have never seen a clifton plane in person, and no effort was made here to tell us why anyone should buy them.
> ...



Those guys are hand tool workers? I haven't been in there a lot, but it is literally a couple of minutes away. When I first went there, they had hock irons and all kinds of stuff, but it's slowly disappeared in favor of plastic router gadgets and pen kits. 

I see looking online that clifton's irons were priced in the UK more like what we're used to here for premium irons, that someone between the manufacturer and here added the upcharge. 

Pretty sure they're O1, there's not much else in inexpensive carbon steel other than various varieties of chrome vanadium, and I doubt it's those. 

I like the look of the irons, though I'll admit when I saw the stock weight for the clifton #4, I know I wouldn't be a buyer for it. (5.3 pounds). I think the stanley 4 that I've come to love so much weighs right around 3, and I'm getting too lazy for heavy planes. 

You should stop by sometime over the winter when you're down here, if you're at rockler you could almost walk to my house.


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## Jelly (15 Sep 2015)

D_W":2zrtxkvw said:


> Pretty sure they're O1, there's not much else in inexpensive carbon steel other than various varieties of chrome vanadium, and I doubt it's those.



Au contraire, being that they're in the steel city; there are still dozens of foundries which produce proprietary alloys of tool steel to meet customer requirements. My estimation is there are 3-4 companies whose metallurgists could produce a steel to fit whatever properties clifton want for the irons, within a 20 minute walk from them.

Tool steel is not limited to the defined ASIS-SAE grades of steel, and indeed in the UK it would be manufactured to a BS or EN standard anyway.


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## D_W (15 Sep 2015)

Hey, I'm in the Steel City, too, just in the US. We have some small specialty mills here still, and stainless and titanium mills, but not much "regular stuff"

If the clico stuff isn't O1, I'd venture a guess that it's pretty close - something oil hardening, something around 1% carbon and not too too much of anything else even if things like silicon and vanadium are tweaked a little bit.

I should've been more specific in saying that "there's not much else" to mean that it's probably not air hardening steel (or we'd have heard complaints about sharpening somewhere and they wouldn't refer to it as carbon steel), it's definitely not stainless, and it's extremely unlikely that it's water hardening steel. 

So some variation of oil hardening diemaking steel.


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## Jelly (15 Sep 2015)

D_W":1os3g6ju said:


> Hey, I'm in the Steel City, too, just in the US. We have some small specialty mills here still, and stainless and titanium mills, but not much "regular stuff"


That sounds familiar, most of sheffields output is now superalloys, stainless, and gigantic and/or hideously complex castings and forgings which no-one else makes, though there are two big continuous casting mills still.



D_W":1os3g6ju said:


> So some variation of oil hardening diemaking steel.


That seems like a reasonable assumption; if my understanding is correct the little variations from "standard" combined with a treatment process designed to exploit them can make for a superior product. I'm now tempted to pop in and ask them next time I have a day off (the new owners of Clifton are just down the road from me here), though that could, equally be an expensive decision.


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## Sheffield Tony (15 Sep 2015)

Thomas Flinn's website says the new Clifton iron is cryogenically treated O1. The old wonky stamped iron was hand forged O1, as seen on "How it's made".


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## Cheshirechappie (15 Sep 2015)

Sheffield Tony":23r9dyj8 said:


> Thomas Flinn's website says the new Clifton iron is cryogenically treated O1. The old wonky stamped iron was hand forged O1, as seen on "How it's made".



Just adding a little to that, three sizes of iron are available (the usual 1 3/4", 2" and 2 3/8") and all cost £28-50 each, which is just about half the cost of the old, discontinued forged ones.

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... ml#SID=454


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## D_W (15 Sep 2015)

They look like something that could've been made by the french, as our US marketed hock irons are. 

You guys love the french right?

I only know English people here (and they are very specific that it's English and not British) who have been here a long time, so I won't repeat what they say for risk of it having gone the way of Robertsons trinkets.


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## Cheshirechappie (15 Sep 2015)

D_W":3u0h79o8 said:


> They look like something that could've been made by the french, as our US marketed hock irons are.
> 
> You guys love the french right?
> 
> I only know English people here (and they are very specific that it's English and not British) who have been here a long time, so I won't repeat what they say for risk of it having gone the way of Robertsons trinkets.



Let's not be nasty about the French. They're in a bad way economically, and their best Champagnes were comprehensively trounced in a recent blind tasting by sparkling wines grown and made in Sussex, so they're a bit sore (tee hee!). Not only that, but it was recently discovered that Britain produces more varieties of artisan cheese than France does, so they're a bit sore about that, too.

They're not all bad. Liogier rasps are absolutely top notch, and Auriou stuff is pretty damn good too. That's about it, though.


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## D_W (15 Sep 2015)

I've got some french stuff that I like quite a bit. They were, at one point, fairly good at making razors, but more recent efforts have been a bit lazy looking. 

My best English friend who is a woodworker is put off each time he sees the my french wares. 

I'd say that they (the french) have a penchant for fine quality carbon steel, but they like it a bit soft in their tools. Had it would be more accurate. 

I've had some English food, including blancmange (of English origin) - if you guys are beating them, they must be a in a bad way!


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2015)

I don't really think an American should be criticising British food. Or anyone else's come to that.


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## Tony Zaffuto (16 Sep 2015)

Dayam D.W. When we going to get a good washita thread going here? For me, I've been concentrating on my 3 Spyderco's since you were last on SMC, and my oilstones are now pretty lonely!


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## D_W (16 Sep 2015)

I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones. 

One thing I did in secret was sell off the washitas that I'm not using (I gave a couple away, too). That leaves me about about 4, not because I use 4, but because two are unmarked stones and odd (one is narrow and the other is short). My two favorites turned out to be not labeled, and I've used them for everything but a very few items (you'd be surprised how well they do with a japanese chisel has a wrought iron back - the fact that the chisel is harder just means the edge is finer).

I know there's an appreciation (or at least was at one time) in the UK for the type since there are so many on ebay originating there, but they're at a premium, too. I love them, they sharpen everything nicely.


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## Tony Zaffuto (16 Sep 2015)

D_W":3ohuembj said:


> I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones.
> 
> One thing I did in secret was sell off the washitas that I'm not using (I gave a couple away, too). That leaves me about about 4, not because I use 4, but because two are unmarked stones and odd (one is narrow and the other is short). My two favorites turned out to be not labeled, and I've used them for everything but a very few items (you'd be surprised how well they do with a japanese chisel has a wrought iron back - the fact that the chisel is harder just means the edge is finer).
> 
> I know there's an appreciation (or at least was at one time) in the UK for the type since there are so many on ebay originating there, but they're at a premium, too. I love them, they sharpen everything nicely.



Passed on a Norton Queercreek stone this past weekend. Was fairly flat, but had a few nicks. Flea market guy wanted $40 for it, no case, and wouldn't budge to the $10 I offered. Have a smaller NOS Norton Queercreek in a box, with label, somewhere in my accumulation. Never have used one though.

As far as the Spyderco's go, I like them: Jury was out for months on the "Ultrafine", but after at six months of regular use, a few flattenings on a diamond plate, in spite of being artificial, either it or me has settled into how it works best and I get a great edge. Unlike most American woodworking forums, the UK guys don't get the shorts in a knot talking about the latest jigs etc. Much, much more practical about the craft, which is very refreshing, and I suspect most here roll their eyes at some of our Yankee bloggers.


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Sep 2015)

D_W":2otorpxv said:


> I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones.



Sharpening is as contentious a subject in the UK as it is anywhere else in the woodworking world.

There probably are quite a few oilstones about, but there are plenty using waterstones, diamond stones, ceramics and scary sharp, and there's a mix of high-speed bench grinders, wet grinders and few hand-crank devotees. Old hands have found their preferred method and stick with it in general, but things are tricky for newer woodworkers because there's so much conflicting information about, and so much variety in the tool catalogues. Then, of course, there's the jig or freehand debate - there are adherents to both approaches.

Going back to Victorian times (mid 19th century and earlier) there were not many options. Big natural sandstone hand-crank or treadle grinders in some larger shops, coarse rub-stones in others. To finish an edge, some used the local natural stones (Charnley Forest being a common one - gave a very good egde, but slowly), others preferred the more expensive imported Turkey stones. There were also fine finishers like Tam O'Shanters, Water of Ayr and several Welsh slate hones. A few Arkansas hones crept in, too, but as they've always been expensive stones in the UK, they aren't as common as in the States.

As artificial stones started to become available - many from North America - the local natural stones were abandoned quite rapidly (that would be from about 1880 onwards). The combination Norton India eventually became almost the default choice of most tradesmen until the introduction of waterstones in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and then ceramics, diamonds and lapping films.


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## D_W (16 Sep 2015)

There are a lot of sandstone wheels here - most people use them for yard art. It wouldn't be hard to get one if willing to look around (space is more of an issue than anything). I've never seen large rub stones here like the ones that are in books. 

I've had my share of English stones (slates and a charn), but I haven't come across a good WOA or razor graded Tam. WOA were used here extensively, but by people doing silver work. The washita and hard ark ruled here until carborundum corp and whoever else started making silicon carbide and al-ox stones, same as the UK. There are a lot of old little-used carborundum corp stones (it's pretty easy to find that silicon carbide doesn't make a very desirable edge), but the india types look more used. I often wonder what the buyers of those all silicon carbide stones think when they got them and paid as much or almost as much as a nice washita stone would've cost.

I'm 100% super fascinated with the various stones from around the world and have a whole pile of them, including some of the newer synthetics. But I don't follow what magazines or whatever recommends, because it's always just going to be some unnecessary jig and whatever sharpening stones just came out of the port brought in by some distributor.


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## D_W (16 Sep 2015)

Tony Zaffuto":1r16nbp8 said:


> D_W":1r16nbp8 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones.
> ...



$40 is double as much as they should be. I've got one that Mel Fulks gave me, and I'll admit I haven't tried it too much yet, but I've got other sandstone hones and there's just something they're missing that novaculite has. The japanese stones are different, like arks, they have some bite and at the right level of hardness they are somewhere between sharpening and polishing. The sandstones, though (and I have used a coarse sandstone and a hindostan hone a fair amount) just feel like second line stones compared to arks and other more desirable naturals - not surprisingly given that they sold for a fraction of the cost of arks and the pros would've had the good sense to use whatever's best.

I like the concept of the spydercos, too, but haven't used mine quite so much because of the love for the washita. I like the concept through because the particles are fixed on the stones which means you can use them slowly and with different touch and not remove much metal in a situation where you are just trying to refresh what is already a near good edge.


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## Vann (18 Sep 2015)

D_W":250zywkh said:


> I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones.


WHOA :!:  You guys are turning my lament at the loss of old skills into a sharpening thread :shock: ?  (hammer) 

Something that's come out of this discussion though, is that the cryogenic treated irons aren't hand-forged anymore (I hadn't realised that). That's another old skill wiped-out. Damn!

Cheers, Vann.


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## Tony Zaffuto (18 Sep 2015)

Vann":3np0itdw said:


> D_W":3np0itdw said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure what people here do for sharpening, I'd assume there's a lot of oilstones.
> ...



That is a disappointment as the prior Clifton iron (and to a bot of a lesser extent the "StaySet") was the plane! I can fly through quick touch ups on my #3 by popping the bottom portion of the the chip breaker off, hone and have everything back together pronto.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2015)

I wonder whether any of us would be able to tell the difference. It doesn't make that much sense to cryo treat O1 steel, but it must be a demand (marketing-wise). The result is probably the same practically, but the etch that's replaced the stamp looks cheaper (the iron looks like it's a lot cheaper, though, too - though I'm not in the market for any of that kind of stuff).


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## Sheffield Tony (18 Sep 2015)

D_W":14ipzup7 said:


> I wonder whether any of us would be able to tell the difference. It doesn't make that much sense to cryo treat O1 steel, but it must be a demand (marketing-wise). The result is probably the same practically, but the etch that's replaced the stamp looks cheaper (the iron looks like it's a lot cheaper, though, too - though I'm not in the market for any of that kind of stuff).



I would guess it is cheaper. Laser cut from gauge plate -vs- hand forged from round bar ? But I suspect that it is not really about cost; the etching is a thing Thomas Flinn are already equipped to do for their saws. The forging of the old Clifton irons, along with the augers, was what Clico did that was a bit special. The castings were no doubt subcontracted, and still can be, but the iron couldn't easily be made in the way it used to be.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2015)

Sheffield Tony":t5nkzz2k said:


> D_W":t5nkzz2k said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder whether any of us would be able to tell the difference. It doesn't make that much sense to cryo treat O1 steel, but it must be a demand (marketing-wise). The result is probably the same practically, but the etch that's replaced the stamp looks cheaper (the iron looks like it's a lot cheaper, though, too - though I'm not in the market for any of that kind of stuff).
> ...



Yeah, I should've been clear about that, I'm not implying it's "cheap looking", but that the price is in fact actually much lower than it was when they were forging them. They were about 80 bucks over here when the laser cut hock irons were less than half of that, which made them a tough sell. They probably still won't sell over here because we have a gaggle of various irons offered. 

I agree with sentiment about the stamp, I think it was special looking, as an amateur sometimes toolmaker, I get a lot of mileage out of those details (deep stamps with a lot of character), but I'd imagine the average white collar tool show buyer probably doesn't. I didn't when I was a beginner. Those things show maker pride above and beyond boasting about kaizen or inventory systems or any other such thing companies boast about that takes the humanity out of the tools. 

I don't think the average customer will have the sense to notice any difference between a forged iron and a cut and treated iron, though, either (nor maybe would they without the cryo treatment). I sound cynical saying that, but the quality of O1 bar stock heated and tempered well (when the stock is good quality to start with) is pretty good already. Wear resistance follows hardness after that if chipping doesn't occur. 

I don't know of anyone else actually hammering irons outside of japan, and I suspect (or have been told) that quite a lot of japanese irons claimed to be hand forged are made from preliminated stock from the mill (I'd assume it's rolled together under heat given how uniform the lamination is) - that hand hammering via power hammer is saved for the older and more skilled smiths, and I'll bet that will for the most part disappear in the not too distant future. That prelaminated japanese stock is also good (cleaner alloy and higher carbon than most western stuff), but not what people expect when they think of a power hammer smashing everything together. The knives for the most part are definitely made of prelaminated material - and even the cheapest make western knives look pretty bad, partially because of the material and partially because they're not afraid to harden them. 

It's a shame to see things like that forging end, but buyers buy on price because they're buying 5 times as much stuff as they need. 95% of the buyers will have no clue why a stamp like the one that was in the clifton irons is a special thing.


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## G S Haydon (18 Sep 2015)

"95% of the buyers will have no clue why a stamp like the one that was in the clifton irons is a special thing."

That's the hard thing about the whole concept. Unless someone with exposure is willing to explain why it's unique, special etc it wont get traction.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2015)

G S Haydon":1csqjmh3 said:


> "95% of the buyers will have no clue why a stamp like the one that was in the clifton irons is a special thing."
> 
> That's the hard thing about the whole concept. Unless someone with exposure is willing to explain why it's unique, special etc it wont get traction.



I don't think anything will gain traction at this point. I have an urge to go on a long term comparison of everything I've ever bought, but I don't still have it all in possession. I see way too many people who are "trusted advisors" and instructors who are linked to retailers and who are not giving unbiased recommendations. That kind of thing drives away anything that creates cost in production because it promotes selling something that costs the least to make to the most it can be sold for (usually to beginners). 

At any rate, I think but for a small section of folks who appreciate why things were done the way they were at the end of the era of incremental improvement, most of the rest of it is a lost cause in the era of $150 imported electroplate diamond hones and other such things.


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Sep 2015)

The main reason the "old ways" were used in times gone by was because, at the time, they were the most economical methods of production available. Now that technology has moved on, they may no longer be. That's certainly the case with plane irons, which can now be cut more economically from rolled flat stock. The act of rolling has a similar (not quite exactly the same) effect on metal grains that forging used to, so there's no real loss of quality on that account. Certainly, reports from users on irons by people like Ray Iles, Ron Hock and so on don't suggest that their products are in any way inferior or underperforming - it also means they can make irons in relatively small quantities, because they don't have to cover the capital and running costs of forging plant, or pay the huge energy costs (huge in the UK, anyway) of running a furnace.

There are some small niches left in which forging is still the economical way to make things - Ashley Iles and Henry Taylor still make chisels the old way, by multiple-strike forging and hand-grinding. In the case of some the more complex shaped carving chisels, it would be hard to think of any other way of making them, and both firms being long-established, they have long since paid off the capital costs of their forging plant and specialist tooling for it (in Ashley Iles' case, they're still using many of the dies that Ashley himself made when he first started back in Sheffield in the 1950s.)

On the cryogenic treatment of O1 steel, there was a comment by Peter Sefton (of this parish) a few months ago reporting results of some blind trials he did with his students of Clifton plane irons. He said there was a definite difference in edge life, some irons lasting much longer than others. He didn't know, but suspected that the longer-life ones were cryos. Given that the process is an extra step in the manufacturing process, and thus an extra cost, I'm pretty sure Flinn's wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't a noticable benefit - and no, I don't think they're cynical enough to just do it as a marketing con. I don't understand the metallurgy of cryogenic heat treatment, but it does seem to have beneficial effects in at least some circumstances.


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## D_W (18 Sep 2015)

Cryo treatment takes the large carbides and distributes them more evenly in the steel. It tends to have more of a benefit when the steel is a type that has large carbides without it (like A2 does). Thus, in theory, A2 cryo irons should be substantially finer wearing (and without small chips) if they are done. Cryo treatment costs something, but it's not a great deal (certainly not like paying someone to operate a hammer).

I don't know what things are like in the UK in terms of customer demand, but one thing that you'd see american buyers getting hung up on is A2 irons from LV not being cry treated, and there's more benefit there. 

I've revised my thoughts (except for outright crappy irons that chip out easily and leave lines on work - those are defective) that anything that's a good iron is pretty much the same as a super fabulous iron and if it isn't, then most of the shavings are too thin and we're wasting time.

I guess what I'm saying is even if there's a material benefit in tests, it's not something that amounts to much in making things. It's like hardened teeth on a saw vs teeth that need to be filed. That's only a big deal if we don't know how to sharpen a saw quickly.


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## Andy Kev. (19 Sep 2015)

G S Haydon":1b42ks63 said:


> "95% of the buyers will have no clue why a stamp like the one that was in the clifton irons is a special thing."
> 
> That's the hard thing about the whole concept. Unless someone with exposure is willing to explain why it's unique, special etc it wont get traction.


And with that you have put your finger on one of the monumental weaknesses of British industry, at least in the area of woodworking and that is the reluctance to enthusiastically blow one's own trumpet a bit and to commission some decent advertising.

I took up woodworking about two years ago and for a good while I believed that the only two decent makers of tools were Veritas and Lie-Nielsen. The reason why that is so is that they are all over the internet and the magazines, so they are the ones you get to discover first. The only good word I heard for Clifton planes was from one bloke on this forum. The result? Most of my planes, measuring and sharpening devices are made by Veritas. On the other hand most of my saws are the British Pax brand although that is no thanks to any attempt by the firm to generate a decent profile. It was rather a result of my researches on here. I'd love to own Clifton planes now that I know how good they are but it's a bit late as I can't afford to replace all my gear.

Consider as an example the Robert Sorby Pro Edge machine. It's a terrific bit of kit. If it were American we would have never heard the end of it (and well done to the Yanks that would be) but as it is, what is its market profile like i.e. to what extent has it registered in the average woodworker's consciousness in comparison to e.g. Tormek kit (which I believe may not be American but you get the point).

I have the impression that there's a similar situation with regards to machine tools in general. Everbody thinks, I guess, of Festool (German) but there's a firm called Sedgwick which advertises table saws and the like in _Furniture and Cabinetmaking_. Now if the ads are anything to go by, they make rock solid equipment of a quality which we used to associate with British industry but I've yet to come across a single account of one of their bits of kit. On the other hand Festool is another example of products being all over the internet and therefore in one's consciousness.


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## MIGNAL (19 Sep 2015)

They had to get rid of that stamp. . . . . . it was wonky. We can't have a wonky stamp on a hand tool !


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## G S Haydon (19 Sep 2015)

Andy, I think there are a few reasons for it. LN & Veritas were some of the most prominent tool makers to start producing when most hand tools were perhaps at their low point. They worked hard at creating an identity and it's been good good for them and they produce excellent products. They've even supported very traditional woodworking, Lie-Nielsen working with Folansbee, Larry Willimas and LV making Irons and Cap Irons for Steve Voigt http://www.voigtplanes.com/p/about.html

The modern line of tools are well developed and brilliantly made for people using them to add refinements to work where often the bulk of work is done by machines and for people needing a very safe first step into hand tools. Or for people who enjoy them as objects.

The more I walk through my own journey of woodworking the more I feel sure the most appropriate tools for making most items of furniture or joinery by hand had reached a plateau by the early 20th century. I can't imagine wanting to take sawn boards and prepare them with a range of bedrock's unless I was Popeye.

Unless there is someone credible who is willing to buy a British tool, claim it far superior to anything vintage or already out there (which is not the case regardless of maker it's a question of what style you prefer) then it's not going to happen. 

Where I think there is an opportunity is by showing how to get the best out of the the tools they sell via social media etc. However, making good videos takes time and money. It also takes a long time to gain the following. It's a shame they don't use the hammer forge any longer, that was a USP. However they would have to get over the hurdle of various edge retention tests online rather than professional makers opinions that are much more worthwhile. Although David Savage has alway spoken highly of them "If you can find genuine forged high carbon steel you should definitely try it. Clifton make a really good genuine forged steel blade, “The Victor” plane blade is forged in Sheffield, I have these in my own planes and replaced an A2 blade from lie Neilsen to great effect." http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/woodworking-tools-2/

FWIW I think Ashley Iles chisels are far and away the best new fine chisels out there today. Sensible price and properly made. I have not had fist hand experience of other new British stuff so can't say regarding their performance.


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## Tony Zaffuto (19 Sep 2015)

Funny thing is, here in the States, Clifton and Pax (not so much Thomas Flinn!) got mention-maybe not that much, but nonetheless mentioned. Clifton was referred to as a "modern Bedrock" styles plane and Pax just as a Sheffield saw source. I own more than a few LV & LN products, and my Clifton #3 is the equal of both in their respective style, and may be a bit ahead with the forged blade. I own more than a few of the "boutique" make saws and my Pax sash saw equals & betters most of them, at less than 1/3 the cost.

My suggestion to "Thomas Flinn & Co."? Buy an American blogger, preferably one with a somewhat known name to tout your tools. Flinn already makes excellent, workman quality tools, so they're 3/4 there, all they need is a bit more positive exposure. I've checked the US sources for the forged blades and there still are a few floating around.


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## D_W (19 Sep 2015)

I think Steve Voigt has to make his own cap irons, there's nobody at this point making the vintage style. 

I hope, and I realize that I'm not an influential guy because of how much I argue, but I hope we can get enough people wanting to build their own planes that the irons become publicly available (tapered, slotted and the right length for vintage planes). It'd be lovely if LV could figure out how to make the cap irons with a stamper, but that's really unrealistic given the size of the market. The two have to be made as a matched set for a good plane, though, because a good plane has identically matched irons and caps and not a whole lot of lateral slop for adjustment (it shouldn't be needed if the user of the plane keeps the iron in squareness with the cap edge).


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## D_W (19 Sep 2015)

Tony, do you think the 5.3 pound weight of the clifton number 4 is accurate? (i.e., is your 3 fairly heavy feeling?)


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## Tony Zaffuto (19 Sep 2015)

D_W":3ay0y1bg said:


> Tony, do you think the 5.3 pound weight of the clifton number 4 is accurate? (i.e., is your 3 fairly heavy feeling?)



Never handled a Clifton #4, but my Clifton #3 doesn't feel any different than my Bailey #3. Through the fall or winter months, I try to connect with you sometime when wife & daughter are at Ross Park Mall, & stop over, let you have a feel of it.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2015)

Clifton 4 is 4lb 6 oz
Stanley SW4 is 4 11.
Both heavy beasts. 
I don't see much point in either of them - just like everybody else I get suckered into buying these things by all the BS!
They are on my to-be-ebayed list


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## D_W (19 Sep 2015)

Jacob":1hki1qav said:


> Clifton 4 is 4lb 6 oz
> Stanley SW4 is 4 11.
> Both heavy beasts.
> I don't see much point in either of them - just like everybody else I get suckered into buying these things by all the BS!
> They are on my to-be-ebayed list



We've all been there. I haven't seen a smoother in long term use that I settled into liking more than a stanley 4. In fact, I've never seen a better smoother of any type for actual use, whether it's weight, or whatever, and completely without regard to the fact that they're not very expensive to find.

At one point or another, I've had 7 4 1/2s, including one from LN and I still have a bedrock that has a non-essential part of the casting broken out. the 604 1/2 vintage bedrock weighs 5 pounds. No wonder they didn't sell many of them. i still have the bedrock, because it's damaged and I got it cheap, there's no great reason or reward in selling it, but I don't actually use it. It's too heavy.


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## G S Haydon (19 Sep 2015)

I do find some merit in heavy planes for limited applications. I like how assured they feel for fine finishing, that's why I assume they are popular for people who use machines quite a lot in their workflow.


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## Andy Kev. (19 Sep 2015)

Graham, everything you said above makes complete sense and it seems to me that with their respective approaches both Veritas and L-N have done a great service to woodworking. I just hope that comparable British firms come to the fore to take up well deserved places alongside them.

Thanks for that link to David Savage. I'll set aside some time to go throught it properly.


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## Tony Zaffuto (19 Sep 2015)

Andy Kev.":3fn37kbx said:


> Graham, everything you said above makes complete sense and it seems to me that with their respective approaches both Veritas and L-N have done a great service to woodworking. I just hope that comparable British firms come to the fore to take up well deserved places alongside them.
> 
> Thanks for that link to David Savage. I'll set aside some time to go throught it properly.



Another point of view: is it possible that LN & LV have targeted more the hobbyist end of things and Thomas Flinn (for example) has targeted more of those that make their living from tools?


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## G S Haydon (19 Sep 2015)

I'd say most nicer hand tools are aimed at mainly at hobby woodworkers Tony although professionals do enjoy them too. Most of the context shown presents the tools being used in home workshop situations.

I don't know if flinn have traction with the trades. I have found as a Joiner who started work in 1997 I needed a core of tools, most of which are likely to be nearer to contractor style. Chisels with plastic handles, hardpoint saws, Bailey #4, eclipse coping saw etc. I could of bought nicer stuff but it would of not helped. All the heavy work is done by machines, final fitting done by hand when required. It's unlikely that there are enough furniture makers to support the production of the nicer stuff. 

Andy, David's stuff is a good read. I don't agree with all of it but that is not the point. He is experienced and that makes his thoughts worthy of study much more than an edge retention chart.


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## Tony Zaffuto (19 Sep 2015)

G S Haydon":39my4ppp said:


> I'd say most nicer hand tools are aimed at mainly at hobby woodworkers Tony although professionals do enjoy them too. Most of the context shown presents the tools being used in home workshop situations.
> 
> I don't know if flinn have traction with the trades. I have found as a Joiner who started work in 1997 I needed a core of tools, most of which are likely to be nearer to contractor style. Chisels with plastic handles, hardpoint saws, Bailey #4, eclipse coping saw etc. I could of bought nicer stuff but it would of not helped. All the heavy work is done by machines, final fitting done by hand when required. It's unlikely that there are enough furniture makers to support the production of the nicer stuff.
> 
> Andy, David's stuff is a good read. I don't agree with all of it but that is not the point. He is experienced and that makes his thoughts worthy of study much more than an edge retention chart.



I graduated from college in 1974, and was laying around home, not interested in working. My father was a field superintendent for a regional contractor and said you either move out, or get a job. I didn't move out, so he got me into the 4 year carpenter's apprentice program, served all 4 years, and worked the trades until 1989 when I left and started a manufacturing business (and that's where I am today).

Anyhow, the apprentice program had a very tight regiment for us: specific tools to purchase, as well as how we were to dress. For example, we could only wear white Carhartt carpenter's bibs (w/attached nail apron). Our tool kits included specific tools, such as a Stanley 42X sawset, Bailey #4 & #5 handplanes, 8pt. cross cut and 7pt. rip (both Disston D23 and no panel saw lengths), Stanley framing square (I showed up with a Sargent and damn near got run off, as the Sargent had rafter lengths engraved, and the Stanley gave you values to compute with).

After I left the trade, I began hobbyist woodworking and continue to this day. It was interesting entering the trades when there was still some quality to the tools, if you searched out older hardware stores, but within a decade or so, totes were plastic, and the Stanley #60 chisels were no more, etc. I am still waiting for the day when I can use my knowledge of laying out a compound hip rafter!


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## G S Haydon (19 Sep 2015)

1974, that makes you ancient right . Joking aside I never had to do the framing square thing but did do some work on getting true rafter lengths, forgot it as soon as I was shown. Although the tools had plastic handles they were still pretty good, Marples Splitproof etc.

Nice to know the background Tony, very interesting to here how controlled your purchases were.


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## Tony Zaffuto (19 Sep 2015)

G S Haydon":1lwnbrc3 said:


> 1974, that makes you ancient right . Joking aside I never had to do the framing square thing but did do some work on getting true rafter lengths, forgot it as soon as I was shown. Although the tools had plastic handles they were still pretty good, Marples Splitproof etc.
> 
> Nice to know the background Tony, very interesting to here how controlled your purchases were.



Just feel ancient for the first half hour after getting out of bed in the morning!

What has been interesting to me, is the contractor I mostly worked for, I've contracted numerous times for additions to my plant. Still a union shop, with the carpenters still having to serve an apprenticeship. I find the quality of them quite high, even though their tools differ greatly-hardpoint saws, that cannot be sharpened, etc. For new offices I had constructed two years ago, I supplied the workers with my Millers Falls miter box and Lion miter trimmer. Guys did not like the manual miter box, preferring to use their Dewalt powered saw. However, they did use the miter trimmer on nearly every cut. They also feel in love using my block plane for "tuning & fitting". They had planes, but in their training, they said there was little emphasis on using them. I guess, at least here in the states, most of the union work seems to be more commercial or industrial, with house building left to others.


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