# Wadkin AGS10 restoration



## Krysstel (19 Apr 2018)

Hi guys. I’ve been around here quite a bit before but not for some time now. 
Anyway I’m back and hope to pick the brains of the Wadkin experts amongst you – and I know there’s a few of you in here  

First, I live in Norway (but am a UK expat) where Wadkins of any kind are thin on the ground but this week I came across an AGS10 for a fairly reasonable price and jumped on it. Checked it over today, made a bid and I’m collecting in a couple of days.
I’ve checked out the machine number using this excellent site http://www.wadkinrestorations.co.uk/machine-date.html
and concluded that it was made in 1963. Is that good or bad ?  

At present the motor is connected as 400V 3-phase but has previously been run as 230V 3-phase as is the norm in Norway – I also have 230V 3-phase in my cellar workshop so no problems there hopefully.

Inspired by the several excellent restoring threads I’ve read here before I’m planning a complete strip down of the saw and total rebuild with new bearings, paint etc etc

And so to the questions of which they’ll probably be more of over the next weeks but as a start :-
1.	The fence locking handle is broken. What can I do about that ? Try to repair or are they available from somewhere as replacements ?
2.	What about the paint ? How important is authenticity ? I’ve read there’s a special hammerite colour they used but would it be totally unacceptable to paint the saw any colour ?
I have no spraying facilities but would it be possible to brush paint it and if so what kind of paint is best to use ? Enamel etc ?
And what about removing the old paint ? Is it best to strip it or just sand smooth and primer ?
3.	What’s the best way to restore the table ? Sand with fine grade wet and dry – or would that be too brutal ?

Think I’ll leave it there as a start. I’m going to need some advise about removal and replacement of the bearings but we can come back to that another time.
Thanks for now and thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
Pictures below are from the sellers advert.

picture1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/R9yl7qSMRXEHC6bN2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/g7kIlrLtcAH2mbRr2
picture4


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## topchippyles (19 Apr 2018)

I have a few wadkin machines in my shop and in all honesty they are pretty bombproof ,You should have grease nipples where ever there are working parts,If the saw looks and runs well then ideal.The fence would need a repair or replacement though.


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## Vann (19 Apr 2018)

There are several schools of thought on paint, paint colours, or not repainting at all. In the end, no matter how flash the paint job, it doesn't affect the work to saw does. It's your machine, you can paint it any colour you like.
I have a handful of Wadkin machines. One I've completely repainted (brush) in the closest to original colour I could find. Others will keep their patina anf battle scars.
I think your machine would have originally come in a hammered green.
Cheers Vann.


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## Vann (20 Apr 2018)

Vann":362jo1qg said:


> ...I think your machine would have originally come in a hammered green.


On reflection I'm not so sure. I have parts off a 1956 Wadkin which was originally a light grey, and off a 1974 Wadkin which was originally hammered green. I believe the change was made in the early to mid 1960s, so you would have to look in obscure places to find parts that won't have been repainted during it's life (inside the cast/mild steel frame or under the tag) to be sure.

As for the rust on the table (and other machined surfaces) a razor blade in a holder will "shave" most of the surface rust off - you have to get the angle right. After that it's a fine emery cloth or wet and dry with something like WD-40. Some people use Evaporust. Others a cup wire brush in an angle grinder - this has the potential to remove a little cast-iron as well (not enough to cause inaccuracy, but using a brass wire brush will reduce that).

For the fence locking handle, you'll almost certainly need to make a repair (if you can find a NOS part it'll probably cost an arm and a leg). Measure the diameter and the number of threads per inch and we can probably tell you the thread (most likely BSW). You can then go about organising a new handle (the knob should simply screw off).

Good luck, and keep the photos coming.

Cheers Vann.


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## Krysstel (20 Apr 2018)

Thanks for the replies so far 

What about rust removal from the rest of the saw components ? And buffing/polishing ?
I've seen others restore the handles and other bits to a high polish and it's that level of finish I'm hoping to match. Are there any special buffing wheels I can mount in a pillar drill for instance ?

When it comes to that fence locking handle. Is it screwed into the cam or is the cam and rod machined as one piece ?

I suspect the saw has only a splitter type of riving knife and not the kind that raises and lowers with the blade. Anyone know when the latter type were introduced ? I believe my saw is from 1963 - but I'm not 100% sure.

Cheers
Mark


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## memzey (20 Apr 2018)

I have a Wadkin BGS10 from 1963 and can confirm it was originally painted green from the factory. It also has a splitter as opposed to a full riving knife. I suspect yours will be the same.


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## wallace (20 Apr 2018)

The paint on the main body looks in good shape, maybe you could match the colour and maybe paint the edges of the table.
To clean the table I have found the quickest way is to use a ROS followed by a brass wire wheel then back to the sander going down to maybe 300 grit then finish off with scotchbrite by hand.
I have just cleaned up some handles like yours by putting it on the lathe and sanding to remove any chips, then go through the grits before polishing on a close stiched mop using red silverline compound. 
If theirs any metal bits you want shiny then the same procedure applies, unless its a precision surface like ways, then I just use scotchbrite and wd40


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## MusicMan (20 Apr 2018)

That looks nice. It's the same as mine. Yes the riving knife is really a splitter and doesn't rise and fall (though it tilts). Ola of this place has designed and built a rise/fall accessory and has published drawings.

The Wadkin manual that you want is at http://www.wadkin.com/uploads/files/Wad ... %20(10inch)%20Old%20Manual%20&%20Parts%20List.pdf.

Looks like the fence lock handle just screws into the cam.

Keep us updated!

Keith


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## deema (20 Apr 2018)

Looks a lovely saw. If wouldn’t touch the paint, wipe down and leave it’s history. 

The table top looks also fine. Using it will quickly generate a really nice pattena. I know that it’s nice to have a very shiny top.

The handle just screws into the cam as already highlighted. Easy to make a new one or just retread the end of the existing one. It won’t matter being slightly shorter.

They are a really nice saw.


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## SammyQ (20 Apr 2018)

Wot others have said re restoration; it's a matter of personal taste. Mine is similar vintage to yours and came without a 'humpback' dust hood. They are scarcer than feathers from angel wings; I have a 'pelican beak', same as shown in your photos, but doubt greatly if saw was built with them. 

Sam

PS Careful of rear fence retaining clip breaking on thin circular 'web'...DAMHIHT.


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

wallace":21fwoz6p said:


> The paint on the main body looks in good shape, maybe you could match the colour and maybe paint the edges of the table.
> To clean the table I have found the quickest way is to use a ROS followed by a brass wire wheel then back to the sander going down to maybe 300 grit then finish off with scotchbrite by hand.
> I have just cleaned up some handles like yours by putting it on the lathe and sanding to remove any chips, then go through the grits before polishing on a close stiched mop using red silverline compound.
> If theirs any metal bits you want shiny then the same procedure applies, unless its a precision surface like ways, then I just use scotchbrite and wd40



Hi Wallace
Thanks for the great tips regarding polishing etc.
Any chance you could point me in the direction of an online source for the cosed stich mops, polishing compound etc ?
Thanks
Mark


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

MusicMan":nbx9co8r said:


> That looks nice. It's the same as mine. Yes the riving knife is really a splitter and doesn't rise and fall (though it tilts). Ola of this place has designed and built a rise/fall accessory and has published drawings.
> 
> The Wadkin manual that you want is at http://www.wadkin.com/uploads/files/Wad ... %20(10inch)%20Old%20Manual%20&%20Parts%20List.pdf.
> 
> ...


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

Thanks for all the help so far.

Got the saw home safely yesterday and have started stripping it down. 
Appears to be in really good condition and been well looked after. Motor proved to be a dual voltage 230/400V as I suspected so no problems there. Fence rails are almost unworn and are graduated in millimeters not inches  

Created a new Google Album and will post new pictures there. Please let me know if for some reason it's not accessable.
AGS10 Album


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## MusicMan (23 Apr 2018)

Got the Google pics with no trouble. That looks a nice version of the Wadkin, you have the wider table. And millimetres indeed! Look forward to seeing more.

Keith


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

I'm aware of the scepticism towards the use of dado blades but I'm intending to install one anyway  
I'll be using the saw only in a hobby environment, not professionally.

The factory handbook says the saw can take a maximum 6" diameter x 11/16" thick dado stack.
Have checked around a bit and I can probably get hold of an 8" blade to fit a 25mm diameter arbor but cannot find anyone who makes a 6"/25mm.
(my saw has the optional 25mm arbor, not the standard 5/8").

Is there any reason why an 8" cannot be used ?
Perhaps the recommended maximum 6" was because most saws had only a 5/8" arbor ?

Mark


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## Fitzroy (23 Apr 2018)

Not sure if it’s a good reason or even the correct reason but...... I have a kity 618 that doesn’t have a great range of height adjustment. So I’m often changing blade from a 190mm to a 260mm. On start up the saw draws way more power spinning the 260mm blade up, noticeable in how much more the lights dim! An 8” dado stack will be pretty heavy and that could be the issue, current draw on startup. 

F.


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

Maybe. An AGS10 is apparently capable of taking a 300mm normal blade. I'll try to check the weight difference between that and an 8" dado.


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## memzey (23 Apr 2018)

I run an 8” dado on my BGS10” without any problems. I think the rule of thumb was that 6” was the limit for 2hp saws and 8” sets required at least 3hp.


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

Sounds likely. 
My saw has a 3hp motor, as well as having a 25mm arbor.

Does your saw have the more standard 5/8" arbor ?
I'm actually having trouble finding a dado set to fit my 25mm arbor - but havn't given up yet


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## memzey (23 Apr 2018)

5/8th on my machine (a 1963 Wadkin BGS10). Forrest will sell you a dado stack with a 25mm arbor (make sure it’s that and not 1” when you order it though). Are you sure it’s not an AGS12? Most of them had 1” arbors as standard.


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

Definitely an AGS10. I even have the original handbook.

Have emailed Forrest and a couple of other suppliers but it'll likely be a bit pricey !

Mark


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

Evening all 

Need a bit of help with the removal of the trunnion assembly.
I've removed both trunnion trapping plates and the rise/fall handle and the whole assembly is now loose. But how do I get it out of the main saw tub ? Do I have to also remove the rise & fall shaft bearing housing as well or should I be able to maneuver the whole lot out as is ?


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## Krysstel (23 Apr 2018)

Couple more things 

Under the spindle assembly. What are the square headed bolt and the grub screw with locking nut for ?
Also, the 2 large headed pins that hold on the riving knife bracket. How does one remove them ?

The spindle bearings don't appear to have any movement in them and are completely quiet. Is it really worth me replacing them ? It doesn't seem to be a difficult job if they need to later.

Can anyone see from the motor identification sign whether this is a 2hp or a 3hp motor ?
I can see it confirmed that it's dual voltage and 3 phase but I unsure of the hp or watts.

Thanks a lot for all your help 

Mark


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## Vann (24 Apr 2018)

Krysstel":2ka5q428 said:


> ...Can anyone see from the motor identification sign whether this is a 2hp or a 3hp motor ?
> I can see it confirmed that it's dual voltage and 3 phase but I unsure of the hp or watts.


I see it's pulling 3.15amps in 400v mode. My 4hp saw pulls 5.8amps. The comparison is not accurate, but I'd expect a 3hp motor to be pulling closer to 4.5amps. 

I'd guess it's a 2hp motor.

Edit: What's the "2.0" stamped at the bottom left of that tag (below the "BSG2")? Could that be the hp rating?

Cheers, Vann.


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## memzey (24 Apr 2018)

It’s a 2hp motor. When getting the trunnions out it’s easier to remove the rise and fall shaft as well. IIRC there is a well hidden grub screw holding it it place which you can only really get to with the table off.


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## deema (24 Apr 2018)

There are normally two separate grub screws under the shaft holding it on.


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## Krysstel (24 Apr 2018)

memzey":i9hoihfb said:


> It’s a 2hp motor. When getting the trunnions out it’s easier to remove the rise and fall shaft as well. IIRC there is a well hidden grub screw holding it it place which you can only really get to with the table off.



A friend has told me the 5.5/3.15 refers to 5.5A at 230V or 3.15A at 400V and that the result should be x 1.732 since this is 3-phase (we have 230V 3-phase here in Norway). 
Ie; P = (V x I) x 1.732
Thus giving 2182W for 400V 3-phase and 2190W for 230V 3-phase.
Or approx 3hp.

Is this ìncorrect ?


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## SammyQ (24 Apr 2018)

> Under the spindle assembly. What are the square headed bolt and the grub screw with locking nut for ?


These are for adjusting the limit of movement. The nut locks the threaded part at the right length. Probably factory adjusted. Leave it unless the blade won't go fully down below the table.



> Also, the 2 large headed pins that hold on the riving knife bracket. How does one remove them ?


They are bolts; flat circles are their heads. Move the elevation assembly down with the wheel to its lowest position and you should see the nylock nuts that hold the bolt heads. Undo. Riving knife bracket comes free.



> The spindle bearings don't appear to have any movement in them and are completely quiet. Is it really worth me replacing them ? It doesn't seem to be a difficult job if they need to later.



Mine were a total and utter bear, because the pulley at the motor end of the spindle had fused itself to the Woodruff Key and the shaft. Replacing the bearings is a methodical, straightforward job after that. Modern bearing stockists have readily available ones. Note carefully the designation on the old ones, or better still, take them along with you to your stockist.



> I've removed both trunnion trapping plates and the rise/fall handle and the whole assembly is now loose. But how do I get it out of the main saw tub ? Do I have to also remove the rise & fall shaft bearing housing as well or should I be able to maneuver the whole lot out as is ?



Yup. As said above, rise & fall shaft bearing housing has to be withdrawn from operator's position at tthe front of the saw. Not only does it have two allen-headed (B.S. hex) set screws hiding on the casting, you have to rotate the housing 90 degrees as you withdraw it through the curved slot on the cast iron cabinet. Take the opportunity to fully dismantle it and clean/regrease the beast while it's out. 

The major internal casting can be made easier to lift if you unbolt the blade arbour and riving knife plate.

N.B. The rise and fall casting pivots on a MASSIVE pin held into the larger casting by two allen-headed set screws (B.S. again). BEWARE you don't damage this separating the two castings for cleaning or painting. 

No, you shouldn't have to remove the shaft attached to the adjustment wheel. Just be VERY careful re the worm engagement, especially on reassembly, when you are dropping the main casting (tilt portion) back in. It is heavier than you think. The shaft CAN be got out fairly easily, just taper pins in the bushes etc. Make sure you identify the WIDER end, then tap with a hardened punch (cut off masonry nail) on the SMALLER end! Also, look out for the copper or bronze 'washers' used and replace them in the right sequence/place. 

It pays to clean everything thoroughly, then PTFE-based lube spray does a lot. Especdialy on sliding faces of trunions. 

I've got photos - not good ones - from eons ago when I did mine. Suggest you do too. It helps bucket loads when you're re-assembling. The original Wadkin AGS 10" manual is also superb if you stare at the parts diagram long enough; you eventually learn to think in three dimensions, and everything becomes clear, even if it is a dirty, ache-inducing limbo dance to fettle the bits back into place. If you've done your homework, things are faster. DAMHIKT...

Good Luck and enjoy.

Sam


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## Krysstel (24 Apr 2018)

Thanks for some great info Sam.

A couple of question though



SammyQ":viz9iycg said:


> > Under the spindle assembly. What are the square headed bolt and the grub screw with locking nut for ?
> 
> 
> These are for adjusting the limit of movement. The nut locks the threaded part at the right length. Probably factory adjusted. Leave it unless the blade won't go fully down below the table.



Why two bolts ? One square headed without a locking nut and one grubscrew with locking nut.
I do need to adjust these as the blade doesn't go fully down.



SammyQ":viz9iycg said:


> > The spindle bearings don't appear to have any movement in them and are completely quiet. Is it really worth me replacing them ? It doesn't seem to be a difficult job if they need to later.
> 
> 
> 
> Mine were a total and utter bear, because the pulley at the motor end of the spindle had fused itself to the Woodruff Key and the shaft. Replacing the bearings is a methodical, straightforward job after that. Modern bearing stockists have readily available ones. Note carefully the designation on the old ones, or better still, take them along with you to your stockist..



But it's OK to not touch the bearings if they appear to be both quiet and without any play ?



SammyQ":viz9iycg said:


> No, you shouldn't have to remove the shaft attached to the adjustment wheel. Just be VERY careful re the worm engagement, especially on reassembly, when you are dropping the main casting (tilt portion) back in. It is heavier than you think. The shaft CAN be got out fairly easily, just taper pins in the bushes etc. Make sure you identify the WIDER end, then tap with a hardened punch (cut off masonry nail) on the SMALLER end! Also, look out for the copper or bronze 'washers' used and replace them in the right sequence/place.



Sorry, bit confused. Which shaft is this ? The rise and fall shaft or the tilt shaft ?



SammyQ":viz9iycg said:


> I've got photos - not good ones - from eons ago when I did mine. Suggest you do too. It helps bucket loads when you're re-assembling. The original Wadkin AGS 10" manual is also superb if you stare at the parts diagram long enough; you eventually learn to think in three dimensions, and everything becomes clear, even if it is a dirty, ache-inducing limbo dance to fettle the bits back into place. If you've done your homework, things are faster. DAMHIKT...



Yep ! Have photographed everything.
All the pictures are in the Google album I linked to earlier.

Mark


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## SammyQ (24 Apr 2018)

Tilt shaft I meant; long one that goes transversely across cabinet. Rise and fall is much shorter and is inside thallic housing that comes out through the 'smile'. 

Bearings quiet? Leave 'em alone. 

Square nut etc: Will have a look and report back.

Sam


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## memzey (24 Apr 2018)

There is a square nut that retains the gib strip in place. Could that be it?


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## Krysstel (24 Apr 2018)

memzey":2ui5psrd said:


> There is a square nut that retains the gib strip in place. Could that be it?



I've arrowed the bolts in question in the picture below.


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## memzey (24 Apr 2018)

Nah. The gib strip would be behind where you have placed the text “Square Screw”. Can’t remember what those ones are for or even if my one has them.


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## Krysstel (25 Apr 2018)

Hi again 

Do we know the RAL code for the green hammerite colour used +/- 1963 ?


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## Krysstel (25 Apr 2018)

Can anyone help me ?
Still trying to remove the trunnions and am having trouble removing the rise & fall shaft bearing housing.

Sam previously said there were two allen-headed (B.S. hex) set screws hiding on the casting but either I'm blind or my saw doesn't have them !

This picture is from the front and you can just see two bolt heads (approx 16mm). I removed them but that didn't help. 





The next picture is taken from the back of the housing.
There's a pin (5 dia x 40 long grovelock spring dowel in the parts list, no. 53) through the shaft, just behind the worm drive, but I can't see any allen-headed screw in the raise and fall shaft bearing housing.


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## SammyQ (25 Apr 2018)

Gawd...It's a LONG time since I took mine apart...but..I'm changing the dust removal on mine, so I'll lift the lid and have a shufti tomorrow for you. That square headed screw you mentioned earlier is nagging away at me too. :?: 

Sorry for no immediate answer.

Sam


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## Krysstel (25 Apr 2018)

Thanks Sam. Much appreciated.

I'm trying to lift out the whole trunnion assembly but what's stopping me is the part of the rise/fall housing on the outside, behind the handwheel, where the tilt angle pointer screws on. That bit stops me pulling the whole lot through and out of the tub from the inside.
It seems to me that part of the housing has to be removed separately but I can't for the life of me see how !

Mark


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## SammyQ (25 Apr 2018)

Quick archive search:

If you go to the OLDER AGS 10" manual by Daltons? The 3-D diagram on page two shows the problem!! 

You've removed parts 37 and 37 (!) put 'em back quick before the castings separate...  ...You are looking for part 70, which is a sly wee pipper that locates the thallic shaft (part 40) in the castings, part 39 and 27. From memory, it's an allen key removal, down the side of the casting. Take a brush to accumulated sawdust and a torch or/and hand mirror to locate it.

I'll try to attach my pdf of the manual. Alternatively, PM me and I'll email it to you.#

Sam


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## SammyQ (25 Apr 2018)

This forum's software is graphically horrible, encoded by a cack-handed, I.Q in single figures, Darwin Award reject, with ADHD in spades, to the power 'n'...it won't let me upload either a screen shot or pdf :duno: PM me!!

Sam


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## SammyQ (25 Apr 2018)

Right Mark, here's hoping...

The thallic housing looks like this:






As you can see, there is a through hole on the side. Part 70 has an end exactly shaped to fit in this hole, and is screwed into casting 27, see below.






From memory, it's the third hole from the front, low down, just in front of the transverse teeth at the rear of the casting

I still do not have a baldy what that square headed screw does, but the thread sticking up from a nut flush with the surface of the casting is definitely the blade height adjustment/stop.

STOP!! GOT IT!!!

look through 'the smile'...






See the slotted screw? "That's Yer Mon, Big Lad!" Undo it and the willie-shaped wotsit should slide out...rubber hammer to encourage it?

Sam


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## Krysstel (25 Apr 2018)

Fairly sure I've got the old manual on an email somewhere but in the meantime. Parts 37 and 37. Are they the 2 bolts you can just see through the front opening ? Too late if so. I slackened them off and then tapped the housing apart to see if that solved my dilemma, which it didn't ! Anyway managed to pull the flanges back together again with the same 2 bolts so hopefully no harm done.
Will hunt for the missing allen head tomorrow.
Thanks in the meantime Sam


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## Krysstel (25 Apr 2018)

The big slot head screw on the side ?!
Got it ! No worries. Thought that was something else.

Great and thanks ever so for your help.  

Mark


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## Krysstel (25 Apr 2018)

And I found the old manual and checked all the numbers you quoted. Found everything and it all looks like plain sailing 

One other thing. 
When comparing the rise/fall worm with the tilt worm I can see that the rise/fall is a lot more worn. The worm teeth are almost pointed whilst those on the tilt worm are square topped. This results in a marked amount of backlash in the rise/fall. Anything I can do about that ? Like replace the worm for instance !


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## SammyQ (26 Apr 2018)

Hmmmm....Here's what mine looked like on disassembly, then after cleaning with metal polish and garden twine:



























Sam


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## Krysstel (26 Apr 2018)

Comparing the condition of my worm with the one in your last picture it's obvious mine is very worn. Zooming in on my picture you can see quite a gap between the worm and the teeth on the quadrant. 
I guess I could live with the backlash as the weight of the motor and trunnions will probably hold the blade down but since I'm stripping the whole saw down it would seem sensible to replace the worm now.
I've found the WORM here - but at a price ! Do I have any options ?


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## Krysstel (26 Apr 2018)

BTW Sam - The dark green you repainted with. Is that a hammerite colour ?

I'm looking at different machine enamels right now with a plan to brush painting with a green colour which is not the original Wadkin RAL code.

Mark


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## deema (26 Apr 2018)

It will be I suspect a standard part. The trick is finding the spec to source one correctly. However with you having your old one you can take the dimensions to find a replacement. Locating your local retailer of such items and pop down with the old one to get a match is often the easiest way.


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## Krysstel (26 Apr 2018)

Popping over from Oslo might be a little tricky but I think I can source the part online if I'm careful about the part number etc.


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## SammyQ (26 Apr 2018)

Those guys are good for spares, but pricey. I'm trying to screw up the courage to buy a fence advancement screw from them...three figures too!

You could just live with the backlash, always going above the blade height you want, then lowering gently back down to final height? 

At nearly sixty years of age, these two Wadkins of ours are bound to be decrepit in some ways. You should see the state of my fence...

No, the colour I used ain't Hammershite; it's worse, Wickes metallic green. Really soft, easily chipped, don't recommend it. 

Sam


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## SammyQ (26 Apr 2018)

Here's a close-up of the forward gib strips to show the Wickes colour, with a wee tip about neodymium magnets to hold the gib strip securely.






Sam


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## Krysstel (26 Apr 2018)

OK so there's no other cheaper source for spares I haven't found ?
I think I'm going to bite the bullet and do it now while I'm doing everything else :shock: 
After all, if I leave it and come back to it in a couple of years it'll probably cost £150 to fix !!

Think I'm going to paint mine in machine enamel. Some dark green colour. Seems lkke a better option than these hammer finishes that I've never really liked the look of despite their authenticity. 

Mark


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## MusicMan (26 Apr 2018)

A buddy with a robust screwcutting metal lathe, experience in screw cutting and 2-3 hours to spend on it ... you're unlikely to pick one up secondhand.

Yes the weight will hold it down. My worm/whell gear has backlash but it gives no issues. There'll still be a little backlash with a new one.


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## Krysstel (27 Apr 2018)

So all I have to now is screw it back together :roll: 






Despite not being touched for 55 years every nut and bolt unscrewed without problems, all bar one. The main bolt holding the riving knife bracket on. The one with the big head and a locking nut on the back - on the left in this picture. 
Is there any special procedure involved or is it just probably seized due to corrosion ?


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## SammyQ (27 Apr 2018)

> seized due to corrosion



I used Gunk for cleaning, then WD-40 and heating oil (diesel ) to marinade mine for 24 hours. I got lucky and it came off with only a little wrassling and no threads chewed. Mole Grips helped, but the bolt was in a really grimy state.

This was my pile at your stage:






Sam


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## Krysstel (27 Apr 2018)

But once the nut's off it's only a bolt loose in a hole ? The hole's not tapped as well ?
I attempted driving it out from the nut side with a large punch and rotating it from the head side with a hammer and chisel but it didn't budge. Got it soaking in WD40 overnight now and will try again this evening.


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## deema (27 Apr 2018)

If it’s the bolt I think it is your having trouble with you will find that the threaded end has a slot for a screw driver. You unscrew it out. The locking nut is to secure it in poisition after you use a screw driver to adjust. You may have caused a few problems with the persuader.

Worm gears are two a penny if you google search, I’d expect to pay c£10 plus delivery for a new one. If you can’t find an exact match you can get a worm screw set for significantly less than Daltons are quoting. 

As an example RS components sell them.....they are normally very expensive compared to everywhere else and I’m not saying they have the right one.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/pneumati ... orm-gears/


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## deema (27 Apr 2018)

I would personally change the bearings, I always change all the bearings and belts on all the secondhand machines I buy.....it’s amazing for often it uncovers issues that would have led to real problems if I’d not done it. The belts may have been over tightened or the machine left standing for a long time without the spindle being rotated to avoid the bearings ‘denting’ the race which causes noise, vibration and leads to them failing. The machine will also almost certainly run quieter with new bearings. The official bearings have elongated inner races and are expensive (about £40 for the pair) however you can use jelly bean bearings 6203RS or ZZ and a couple of shim washers which are pennies at total cost of c£10. Belts are c£1.50 each!


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## Krysstel (27 Apr 2018)

deema":33iqxbif said:


> If it’s the bolt I think it is your having trouble with you will find that the threaded end has a slot for a screw driver. You unscrew it out. The locking nut is to secure it in poisition after you use a screw driver to adjust. You may have caused a few problems with the persuader.
> 
> Worm gears are two a penny if you google search, I’d expect to pay c£10 plus delivery for a new one. If you can’t find an exact match you can get a worm screw set for significantly less than Daltons are quoting.
> 
> ...



Think we're talking about 2 different bolts.
The one in question is one of the main bolts that hold the sliding riving knife frame/bracket to the trunnion. Mine definately doen't have a screwdriver slot in the threaded end.

Good idea sourcing a non orginal worm gear. :wink: 
But unfortunately worm gears is not something I'm an expert on. How does one measure them to get the correct item ? 
In the examples at RS they talk about things module, number of starts, pitch diameter, gear direction and pressure angle. All of which mean little or nothing to me :? 

Mark


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## Krysstel (27 Apr 2018)

deema":qsj48se5 said:


> I would personally change the bearings, I always change all the bearings and belts on all the secondhand machines I buy.....it’s amazing for often it uncovers issues that would have led to real problems if I’d not done it. The belts may have been over tightened or the machine left standing for a long time without the spindle being rotated to avoid the bearings ‘denting’ the race which causes noise, vibration and leads to them failing. The machine will also almost certainly run quieter with new bearings. The official bearings have elongated inner races and are expensive (about £40 for the pair) however you can use jelly bean bearings 6203RS or ZZ and a couple of shim washers which are pennies at total cost of c£10. Belts are c£1.50 each!



Could you give me a link to a possible supplier ? Both for bearings and belts.
Thanks   

Mark


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## deema (27 Apr 2018)

For bearings, belts and gears I use these chaps.

I’d give them a call about your worm gear. Pressure angles etc are only critical in drive systems with loads, for this application where your winding a handle by hand to adjust an incredibly light load anything that meshes will work. 

If you have a retailer of such things locally if you take the worm and drive gear into them they should be able to sort you out a solution. 

https://www.bearingsrus.co.uk.


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## deema (27 Apr 2018)

For shim washes eBay is your friend e.g. item no 253287538966 for the 1mm shim. You need 2.3mm for each side of each bearing


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## deema (27 Apr 2018)

If you want the ‘proper’ 88503 these chaps have them in stock

https://www.123bearing.co.uk/bearing-88503.php


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## Krysstel (27 Apr 2018)

Thanks for all the links "deema". 

Mark


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## memzey (27 Apr 2018)

A little bit of backlash on the rise and fall isn’t the end of the world either.


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## deema (27 Apr 2018)

I’ve just been tinkering with searches, and another direct replacement without any shim washers is the 6203FF, they are available off eBay at c£13 delivered each.


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## Krysstel (11 May 2018)

After a week or so doing other things I'm back into the saw today and hope I can pick your expert brains again  

Am trying to dismantle the motor and have run into a problem with removing the pulley.
There are 2 allen headed bolts through the pulley and whilst one came out without too much trouble the other one refuses to budge. Any suggestions ?
Also, what's the procedure for removing the pulley from the shaft ? Removal of the key etc. 
And lastly; the screw that goes diagonally into the front cover towards the shaft. What's it's purpose ?







I've removed the back cover as can be seen in the picture. 
Don't have much (if any) experience with motor rebuilds and such but what should I be looking for regarding wear etc ? The bearing seems to be a bit noisy and have some play in it and I guess I should replace both - if I can get the pulley off that is !






Thanks for any help you can give me.
Mark


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## deema (11 May 2018)

Stand the motor upright so that the pulley is fully emmersed in a bath of diesel and leave it a couple of days. Try the gru screw. If it still isn’t budging you probably nee to heat it up to get it very very hot. Let it cool and try again. The absolute worst thing is to round out the hex head on a grub screw because if you do the only recourse is to drill it out. 

You need a bearing puller to bet both the bearings and the pulley off. Before attempting to pull the pulley off I always heat them up to hopefully break the seal. There is a danger of damaging the pulley with the bearing pulley. However replacement pulleys are cheap and easy to source.


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## Krysstel (11 May 2018)

OK, thanks for the info. I'll try the diesel bath trick first.
How exactly does the key thing work on the pulley shaft ? Is it a loose key that you tap in after the pulley is located by the grub screws or do you tap the pulley onto the key and then put the grub screws in ?


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## deema (11 May 2018)

The key is half moon shaped bit of metal that’s loose. You remove the grub screws, pull the pulley off with a bearing puller. To put it back on you insert the key into the slot dipped down so that it easily located into the slot of the pulley. Tap the pulley back on and it will pop the key into the proper place. Use a copped headed hammer or something to avoid hitting the pulley directly. I also always add copper grease in case I want to get it off again sometime in the future. Replace the Allen screws. 

My AGS had a big nut holding the pulley on, I don’t remember any Allen screws.


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## Krysstel (11 May 2018)

I took a close up of the pulley with grub screws. This is the pulley on the motor, not the one on the arbour housing.







I had intended to leave the arbour housing untouched but if I'm replacing the motor bearings I suppose I can just as easily do the arbour bearings as well. However, there's no way the bearing puller I've got is going to get in between the back of the pulley and the housing. 
Any ideas ? Do other bearing pullers possibly have smaller hooks ?
This pulley is held on by a big nut BTW, not grub screws.






Mark


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## deema (11 May 2018)

My bad, the motor pulley is held on by grub screws!
Anyway, the way to get the arbour pulley off is to pull on one of the flanges of the pulley rather than at the back. The groove walls are all just about the same width so it doesn’t really matte. They are not square so I pull just a little to get it away from the back and then switch to the back of the pulley. If it’s really stiff and you think your going to break the pulley press the arbour out slightly and then push it back in to create room. I do this in the vice with packing so the arbour can move out......but I do have a big vice. 

Before starting heat up the pulley turning it whist the flame is on it. Then let it cool down.

You will need a bearing splitter to get one of the two bearings off. Something like this on eBay will work fine. Item no 132435355101


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## Krysstel (11 May 2018)

OK great. I'll try all that. Thanks for helping.
What about the flat pulley/flange at the other end ? The one behind the blade. Does that need to come off as well to get the bearings out ?


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## deema (11 May 2018)

No, the shaft pushes out from the pulley end. There will be two bearings and a spacer between. There is a bolt on the side if the casting that needs removing before getting the shaft out.

To reassemble you will need a 3/8” diameter BSW grub screw. You insert the grub screw into the inner spacer to locate it to allow you to assemble it again and everything is aligned to get the bolt back in. It sounds difficult, but isn’t, and becomes clear when you get it apart. The 3/8 grub screw is item no 400599661508 on eBay or similar. Download the AGS 12 literature from Wadkin which gives a good write up of how to reassemble.


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## Krysstel (11 May 2018)

Thanks for ALL your help again deema. Really much appreciated. 

Have been trying to put together an order from here BEARINGS

Motor bearings (and arbour bearings w/ shims) :-
They are a 6203-open 17x40x12mm. 
I assume there's no problem in upgrading these to sealed bearings of the same size ?

Rise and Fall worm gear :-
The closest (although too small so not a real alternative) they have to the original worm is this WORM at £80.
I've hunted around a bit but not found anything exactly the correct dimensions anywhere else so may end up ordering the genuine replacement part I mentioned previously, even though they are £125.

Belts :-
The belts seem to have been replaced not so long ago but if I order new ones these seem to be the closest to them fitted now BELTS
Do you agree ?






Cheers
Mark


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## wallace (12 May 2018)

Its fun taking lumps of old iron apart isn't it. Your getting great advice, I've not done an AGS yet so cant comment much. My only suggestion is you mentioned sealed bearings as an upgrade to the open ones. I would stick with open ones then you can maintain them


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## Krysstel (12 May 2018)

wallace":3mjsxvh2 said:


> Its fun taking lumps of old iron apart isn't it. Your getting great advice, I've not done an AGS yet so cant comment much. My only suggestion is you mentioned sealed bearings as an upgrade to the open ones. I would stick with open ones then you can maintain them9



Ha-ha  Yes, so far I've been having fun but it got a bit serious with that seized screw yesterday. 

Really ? My thoughts were using sealed bearings would mean I would never have to maintain them again. Not that I doubt I ever would to be honest.
And surely sealed bearings would last longer in such a dusty environment ? The ones in the motor are caked in dust impregnated grease.

Mark


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## deema (12 May 2018)

I’ve always personally upgraded to bearings with two rubber seals (2RS) and in this application and for the cost replacing the bearings is cheap should they ever fail. I personally buy SKF or FAG bearings which are recognised as high quality. The price difference is pennies to the Dunlop bearings.

I used Dunlop Z22 or Z22.5 belts when I replaced them. 

For the worm measure betwee centres on the shafts and find a cog / worm that gives that distance. Your not worried about pitch pressure angles etc just as long as the worm is long enough. You will get a set fir c£25.
Best John


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## Krysstel (12 May 2018)

Measured the worm gear :-
Bore = 3/4" (imperial)
Worm length = ~40mm
Inner diameter = ~35mm
Outer diameter = ~43mm
Boss length = ~13mm 
Locking pin through boss = 5mm diameter.
Have checked multiple online sources but can find nothing even close to this spec. 
I may be wrong but it appears the absolute critical dimensions for this application are the bore diameter and the locking pin diameter. The other dimensions are important but not critical.

My conclusion is the only solution is to order the original Wadkin part ORIGINAL WORM GEAR

Mark


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## MusicMan (14 May 2018)

You must have exactly the same module and worm diameter (or the equivalent in Imperial) as the one you are replacing; close will not do, it will just jam. 

You can, however, do stuff with the bore and length or end fittings if these re not an exact match.

Keith


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## Krysstel (14 May 2018)

I've ordered the original part fra AMS.

Mark


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## Krysstel (16 May 2018)

.


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## Krysstel (18 May 2018)

Hi again 

I need to change the switch to run the motor on 230VAC 3-phase (which we have in Norway).
Have sourced this switch as being the correct spec CIRCUIT BREAKER . It's the same type as was fitted on the saw when the previous owner ran it on 400V but has a higher current rating.
It's probably fine and will do what I want but it's not very user friendly or really what one would expect to find on a cabinet saw.
Does anyone know of a source for more suitable switches that would do technically the same job but be more user friendly on a cabinet saw ? Ie, big green and red pushbuttons etc !

Thanks
Mark


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## Krysstel (22 May 2018)

Time for a status update  
I have new belts, new motor bearings and a new rise & fall worm gear on order. In the meantime I've cleaned and painted everything and have come a good way in the rebuild.
After a bit of experimentation I ended up with a sort of british racing green for the main body with light grey internals. I'm also painting the underside of the tables in the same grey. The handwheels and ripfence will be black + some polished bits.

Mark


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## MusicMan (22 May 2018)

Looking smart!


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## Krysstel (22 May 2018)

Thanks  
And this really wasn't that difficult. A lot easier than I thought it would be. They're a simple logical design.

Mark


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## misterfish (23 May 2018)

My Wadkin BRT10 - basically an AGS10 with sliding table originally used by a school has one similar. It takes a lot of space and I have removed it for the time being. It fits in place of the left table extension.







Misterfish


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## Krysstel (24 May 2018)

Evening all 

Today I received the rise and fall worm gear I ordered from AMS. This is meant to be an original Wadkin spare part but to my surprise (and shock) it does not have a hole in the boss for the locking dowel - see picture below.
I have queried this with the supplier but wonder where I stand with this. Is this normal ? Is it expected that I drill the required hole myself or have they really supplied the wrong part ? Any thoughts ?

Mark


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## wallace (25 May 2018)

Wadkin machines were all hand finished. So one guy would usually assemble it. This is before the days of mass production but of batch production. That gear would of been got from the stores and then the guy would fit it usually with a tapered pin. If you got a gear from another machine the holes would not align. 
I had a couple of small RT lathes a while back and restored one of them, when I came to fit the tail stock it would not fit. There was only a miniscule difference. I tried the unrestored one and voila.


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## Krysstel (25 May 2018)

So in other words I have to drill the boss myself and hopefully match tbe hole I drill with the existing hole in the shaft ?
Hmmmm. Should be fun  

The worm drive is held on by a straight spring dowel pin, not a tapered pin.

Mark


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## Krysstel (28 May 2018)

With some careful setup and marking I managed to drill out the worm drive without too much trouble and install the locking pin.The whole rise and fall mechanism is now back in the saw and works just fine 

All I have left now is to get the motor reinstalled (with new bearings), new switchgear and mounting the tables.
Oh, and dust extraction :wink: - more later

Mark


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## Krysstel (28 May 2018)

Dust extraction.

With the help of one of those Axminster funnels and a sheet of 1/2" ply I've started putting something together. When I've got the motor back in I'll also box in the top half, around the motor.

My goal is to make the whole installation free standing without any new holes drilled in the saw body. I can then easily modify or remove it if it doesn't perform.

Mark


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## MusicMan (28 May 2018)

well done. That's tricky to do.


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## dkaardal (30 May 2018)

Yeah, that price isn't very nice.

The old Wadkin AGS10 that I picked up had a very worn worm gear for the rise-and-fall mechanism, and after considering a few options I decided to swap the gear for the one on the blade tilt mechanism. That one was practically mint, and the left tilt doesn't get anywhere near the abuse the rise-and-fall one does. 

Switching the two ended up giving me smooth action on both, so now the blade goes up and down nicely, and also tilts perfectly as well.

You might want to double check the comb that interlocks with that worm gear by the way. That can get worn down as well.


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## Krysstel (30 May 2018)

I considered the same fix as the worm for the tilt on mine is also hardly worn. But in the end I went for a new one despite the cost.
The rise and fall comb is indeed very worn but with a new worm it seems to now be good and tight with no backlash. In an ideal world I would have liked to change the comb as well. Are they available ?

Mark


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## SammyQ (31 May 2018)

Mark, I'm coming back to your thread after an enforced absence. Great progress. Respect. I also did a light coat inside the saw cabinet, made a helluva difference to visibility 'under the hood'. 

One query? Have you tried raising/lowering your saw blade WITH THE MOTOR INSTALLED? Does your new dust catcher not impede its downward motion? I had to make a 'scoop' out of an old lorry side, that went the whole way to the base of the cabinet, there was SO little room once the gubbins went down, or worse, tilted. 

Sam


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## Krysstel (4 Jun 2018)

Ha-ha ! Yes Sam, you're totally correct.
In my impatience I started on the dust collection before I had the motor ready and installed. I've since had to lower the whole chute affair so the motor clears it when fully down and tilted. I've still managed to use the Axminster chute but have had to take the pipe out of the back instead of the bottom. Had just enough space.

Mark


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## SammyQ (4 Jun 2018)

Sorry Mark. I have been known to blister local paint when I 'go at summat too 'ard' and don't think it through. That motor mount is a particular bullocks as you have to support a LOT of deadweight - just above your toes. I managed not to amputate mine - just - by judicious placement of a carjack. Tricky, though. Heavyweight juggling/industrial ballet? THEN you have to strain every finger horsing the belts into place. Meh. 
Sam


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## Krysstel (4 Jun 2018)

Couple of pictures showing what I'm doing with the dust extraction. 
They'll be some kind of box around the upper section with the motor etc.
Making it all in 1/2" ply which I'll fill and paint to look as close to the rest of the saw as possible. But I'll probably leave the ply inside unpainted.

Mark


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## SammyQ (4 Jun 2018)

Nice one. Will try to get you photos of my 'fix ' over next few days.


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## Krysstel (14 Jun 2018)

A small update  

Dust extraction as good as done. Just need to put a cover on it and a lick of paint  
Side tables being cleaned up.
Main table on and new DOL switch from Motor Control Warehouse installed.


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## MusicMan (14 Jun 2018)

Neat solution!


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## Krysstel (20 Jun 2018)

Done     

Thanks to everyone that helped =D> =D> =D>

Mark


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## deema (20 Jun 2018)

Superb job, a Saw to be really proud of. Well done


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## SammyQ (20 Jun 2018)

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Krysstel (20 Jun 2018)

Thanks guys and thanks for all your help   

BTW, just to clarify some final points; the fence has 15mm thick PEHD-500 plastic attached to each side and the zero clearance insert (s) I made from hickory.
I also discoverd quite late on that the saw has a genuine riving knife that moves up and down with the blade, not just a splitter that only tilts. This doesn't tie in with what I've heard was the norm on such an early model but maybe it was something special done for export ? According to the machine number the saw's a 1963 model.

Mark


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## MusicMan (20 Jun 2018)

Yes, I thought it had a proper riving knife mechanism from your earlier pics. Great! Well done on the restoration, good job. Enjoy!


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## Krysstel (15 Mar 2019)

A short resurrection of this thread to show what I've recently done with the crown guard and riving knife.
The original guard obviously had no extraction so after looking into making one myself I instead bit the bullet and ordered a Sharkguard and replacement stainless steel riving knife from The US. I had one on a previous saw and they're really excellent, although not cheap :shock: 
The top of the replacement knife is lower than the blade, with the obvious advantages, and the guard has a quick release mechanism that allows it to be very easily removed. And the extraction from the 4" outlet is fantastic !


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## MusicMan (15 Mar 2019)

Looks good. I can't quite see though, whether you have an overhead support for the guard when not bolted to the riving knife?


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## Krysstel (15 Mar 2019)

No, it's only attached to the knife. Although they do make an add-on to hang the guard from above.

Mark


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## MusicMan (16 Mar 2019)

Thanks. And what mitre guide are you using?


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## Krysstel (16 Mar 2019)

Incra


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