# Structural plywood for a cabinet?



## sploo (9 Feb 2015)

I have a router table made from MDF, which has held up OK-ish (some sagging), but I notice that many (especially US) builders seem to make their cabinets from various types of plywood. Birch ply would be great, but it's expensive. I note that Wickes have this http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Structur ... m/p/110036 and I'm wondering if it'd be suitable for building the carcass and drawers for a new workshop cabinet?

I'd still probably use a double layer of MDF with formica/laminate for the top, and maybe get some birch ply for making a new fence though (my previous MDF fence has warped due to moisture over the years).


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## Bodgers (9 Feb 2015)

I prefer working with Birch plywood. It is more expensive, but it's nicer to work with compared to mdf. There are potential dust hazards with mdf as well.

You may have answered your own question (with your fence) as to why some are preferring plywood to mdf for the top. 

I have just built a router table top by laminating two 12mm thick birch ply sheets, it is pretty strong and flat.

As with most wood tops like these, you probably need to support the length of the top to prevent sagging etc. which I suppose is what you will be doing by building the cabinet out of this spruce ply.

There is always a lovely cast iron router top that UKJ sell... It's about £300 though, which is definitely more expensive than mdf.


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## mahomo59 (9 Feb 2015)

+ 1 on the ujk


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## sploo (9 Feb 2015)

Bodgers":di827c4h said:


> I prefer working with Birch plywood. It is more expensive, but it's nicer to work with compared to mdf. There are potential dust hazards with mdf as well.
> 
> You may have answered your own question (with your fence) as to why some are preferring plywood to mdf for the top.
> 
> ...


Yea, my old table had four castors and it's sagged badly in the middle. For the new version I'm wanting to make a combined router table with space for a small table saw - and it'll have more castors, along with bolts to adjust the flatness of the main table.

The thing is - plywood warps too; especially the cheap and nasty stuff. A 4x8' 3/4" sheet of birch ply is more than twice the price of a sheet of the spruce from Wickes though.


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## Bodgers (10 Feb 2015)

It might be more cost effective, and more stable, to just build a frame out construction timber, and panel it with thin ply.


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## sploo (10 Feb 2015)

Bodgers":xnm3otdm said:


> It might be more cost effective, and more stable, to just build a frame out construction timber, and panel it with thin ply.


Yea, I was wondering about that too - I've previously built a cabinet for some heavy machinery from a pine frame with 3/4" MDF panels. The problem is that the cheap non-structural ply in DIY stores is dire and chips really badly. Wickes do 12mm and 9mm versions of the better spruce ply - though looking at their site it's only a little bit cheaper.

I guess I could just go back to the pine frame with MDF panel construction as that worked well (the MDF is cheaper too). The router table was just some sheets of MDF attached together using white modesty blocks, so a really quick and dirty build.

Hmmm, or I could go for the moisture resistant: http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Moisture ... m/p/190138

Strange thing is: the moisture resistant is apparently much lighter than the normal (~27kg vs ~40kg), which seems a bit odd.


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## Bodgers (10 Feb 2015)

You aren't necessarily going to get the best bang for buck at Wickes.

I would go to a more specialist timber place and look through the stuff. Quality may well be significantly higher. 

The Malaysian hardwood ply I was looking at at Yorkshire Timber recently looked fairly good for the money.


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## sploo (10 Feb 2015)

Bodgers":3uculmtx said:


> You aren't necessarily going to get the best bang for buck at Wickes.
> 
> I would go to a more specialist timber place and look through the stuff. Quality may well be significantly higher.
> 
> The Malaysian hardwood ply I was looking at at Yorkshire Timber recently looked fairly good for the money.


I've really struggled with that in the Oxfordshire/Berkshire area. There's a timber merchant in a town near me but their prices are eye watering for just about anything.

I found a place in Oxford that would do a 4x8' sheet of 3/4" birch ply B/BB grade for £65. I've not checked out their cheaper ply or MDF prices, but I've struggled to find a local supplier that's cheaper than Wickes - I'd love to find one though!


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## n0legs (10 Feb 2015)

I've used the Wickes ply, it does have quite a few voids.


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## sploo (10 Feb 2015)

n0legs":26ei3mv8 said:


> I've used the Wickes ply, it does have quite a few voids.


The non-structural stuff (dark brown outer) definitely; it's terrible, and chips really badly. I've not tried the structural spruce ply. It looks better on the shelf, but I've not cut into it.


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## Bodgers (10 Feb 2015)

sploo":2lzu9sqr said:


> Bodgers":2lzu9sqr said:
> 
> 
> > You aren't necessarily going to get the best bang for buck at Wickes.
> ...


That price isn't too far away from typical, at least for someone off the street.

One thing I found difficult was comparing prices. Most of these places just don't publish their prices so it's impossible to compare without ringing round every one of them. I also found that some give a different price when emailing for a written quote and turning up.

One half way solution might be a specialist chain like Howarth Timber. There might be one local to you. They might have more of an economy of scale thing going on, but still sell a decent product.

There is a plywood specialist in Halifax (miles away from you, I know) that do publish prices, and they are very keen. Maybe it might be worth having a look out for something like that...


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## sploo (10 Feb 2015)

Bodgers":198ji066 said:


> That price isn't too far away from typical, at least for someone off the street.
> 
> One thing I found difficult was comparing prices. Most of these places just don't publish their prices so it's impossible to compare without ringing round every one of them. I also found that some give a different price when emailing for a written quote and turning up.
> 
> ...


Yea, the lack of published prices (or online product lists) is a pain, and obviously the delivery prices for suppliers that aren't local blows the economy out of the water unless you're buying loads of sheets.

It (the lack of decent[ly priced] local suppliers) has been a constant bugbear for me. The guys I've found in Oxford look OK, but it's a hassle for me to get to, so I've not made it in yet.

Howarth Timber -> another repeat of the same pattern I see from so many national wood merchants; a huge hole around the Oxfordshire area (i.e. nothing near me). I've lost count of the number of suppliers I've checked out and found the same. Bizarre.


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## pcb1962 (10 Feb 2015)

n0legs":1qic2adv said:


> I've used the Wickes ply, it does have quite a few voids.



I was about to say the same. 
I used to get my ply at Wickes before I knew better. 
There's a reason it's cheap, it's absolute rubbish.


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## pcb1962 (10 Feb 2015)

sploo":3tlkdoyi said:


> I found a place in Oxford that would do a 4x8' sheet of 3/4" birch ply B/BB grade for £65.



I'd be biting their hand off at that price for 18mm birch, here's what my local charge:
http://www.championtimber.com/sheet-mat ... ch-plywood


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## Silas Gull (10 Feb 2015)

I have a home made router table made from mdf. 
I installed a system of adjustable struts (basically threaded rod and nuts) beneath the table. That way I can always adjust for perfect flatness using a reference straight edge. Works pretty well and simple as you like.


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## sploo (10 Feb 2015)

pcb1962":1uqb37hi said:


> sploo":1uqb37hi said:
> 
> 
> > I found a place in Oxford that would do a 4x8' sheet of 3/4" birch ply B/BB grade for £65.
> ...


Yea the £65 is easily the best I've seen in my area; ~£100 is more common - as per your link above.

So many US builders seems to have mountains of the stuff. I wonder if it's cheaper over there.




Silas Gull":1uqb37hi said:


> I have a home made router table made from mdf.
> I installed a system of adjustable struts (basically threaded rod and nuts) beneath the table. That way I can always adjust for perfect flatness using a reference straight edge. Works pretty well and simple as you like.


That's exactly what I'm planning with this new table - not just so I can flatten and adjust the main router table surface over time, but because I want to match it up with the surface of a small table saw, so it'll be critical that I can "tune" it. For that reason I'm beginning to think that I should just do the cabinet construction out of "whatever"; given that my existing cab has done ok - it's just the top that's sagged. The fence has warped too, so that will admittedly need an alternate material.


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## yetloh (10 Feb 2015)

Bodgers":2icn3adj said:


> The Malaysian hardwood ply I was looking at at Yorkshire Timber recently looked fairly good for the money.



It may well be, but a lot of this Asian stuff comes from ripping up tropical rain forest. OK of you don't mind that.

Jim


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## Bodgers (11 Feb 2015)

yetloh":3brr88dv said:


> Bodgers":3brr88dv said:
> 
> 
> > The Malaysian hardwood ply I was looking at at Yorkshire Timber recently looked fairly good for the money.
> ...



This stuff was FSC certified.


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## devonwoody (11 Feb 2015)

Surely you can pick up a metal router table at those sort of ply prices and not have to worry about the problems timber ones can bring, and usually the metal ones can be universal with regard to router fixing now and in the future.


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## Bodgers (11 Feb 2015)

sploo":iw72gz0b said:


> pcb1962":iw72gz0b said:
> 
> 
> > sploo":iw72gz0b said:
> ...




£100 is the most expensive I have ever seen for 18mm Birch.

50-60 seems more typical to me. 

http://www.fortimber.demon.co.uk/matrl1.htm

http://www.builderdepot.co.uk/wbp-plywo ... 440mm.html

http://www.swanseatimber.co.uk/shop/PLY ... _8611.html

http://www.jtdove.co.uk/resources/pdf/p ... rSheet.pdf

If all you are building is sides for workshop equipment, high quality birch ply is way over spec I'd say.

You could also make the top from Formica and make sure it is well supported.


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## sploo (11 Feb 2015)

devonwoody":hy4c2bkb said:


> Surely you can pick up a metal router table at those sort of ply prices and not have to worry about the problems timber ones can bring, and usually the metal ones can be universal with regard to router fixing now and in the future.


Axminster have one for £165, so not a bad price for a cast iron top (assuming it's decent) but it's not that large, so I'd still need to insert it into a larger surface. It also lacks any slots for mounting a fence, so you'd still need to do a fair bit of work.

I may however stump up for one of their phenolic or alum insert plates. Not cheap, but possibly worth it.




Bodgers":hy4c2bkb said:


> £100 is the most expensive I have ever seen for 18mm Birch.
> 
> 50-60 seems more typical to me.
> 
> ...


The fortimber prices are very good. The birch ply is BB/BB (rather than the B/BB I was looking at) but for a garage cabinet that's fine. Just a shame he's 150 miles from me 

I'm definitely moving towards the "birch is too much" position. In fact, I've seen people recommend putting laminate on both sides of the top to even out any movement; but if I'm planning on having a set of adjustment screws on the bottom then even that seems like overkill.

I kinda like the idea of something that looks like wood from the sides (i.e. ply, rather than MDF), so maybe the Wickes spruce would be sufficient for the cabinet itself. A face frame of thin hardwood would hide the ply end grain (and any voids).


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## Bodgers (11 Feb 2015)

The stuff. I have is just plain BB and apart from a single 'batman' style plug it is flawless to my eyes.

If it's just the wood face you are after (arguably not an interesting face on birch), another alternative I saw when touring suppliers was "WISA twin ply". This stuff has birch faces but a spruce core. Whilst not as good as decent birch, it actually looked really good and I am told it's pretty decent.

Even Jewson flog the stuff. You are looking at about £35 a sheet for 18mm.


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## sploo (11 Feb 2015)

Bodgers":1x1bvrhc said:


> The stuff. I have is just plain BB and apart from a single 'batman' style plug it is flawless to my eyes.
> 
> If it's just the wood face you are after (arguably not an interesting face on birch), another alternative I saw when touring suppliers was "WISA twin ply". This stuff has birch faces but a spruce core. Whilst not as good as decent birch, it actually looked really good and I am told it's pretty decent.
> 
> Even Jewson flog the stuff. You are looking at about £35 a sheet for 18mm.


That's a good idea; though I've just phoned Jewsons and was given a price of £40.79+VAT (i.e. ~£49). At that price I'd be tempted to go for the basic spruce, or cough up the extra £16 for the full birch.


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## mind_the_goat (12 Feb 2015)

I picked up some of the Wickes hardwood ply a few months back, seems better than anything I've found in the other sheds. Didn't find any voids at all


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## Graham Orm (12 Feb 2015)

sploo":17u92ixo said:


> Bodgers":17u92ixo said:
> 
> 
> > The stuff. I have is just plain BB and apart from a single 'batman' style plug it is flawless to my eyes.
> ...




Jewsons will always negotiate.


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## Mark A (12 Feb 2015)

Someone asked why so many US builders seems to have mountains of Birch Ply... (I can't quote)

While over in the States last summer I called into a Home Depot store and was shocked at the prices of everything. 

Tools are easily half of what we pay. 2-by timber worked out to something like £1/2.4m. 3/4" Birch ply would be between £20 to £30 if converted into Sterling. 

They have it good over there!


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## tomf (12 Feb 2015)

Wisa ply from Jewsons or TP is adequate for you needs, you should not be paying anymore than £25inc vat a sheet for 18mm and that would include delivery if you get a cash card.

Builders merchants do annoy me however when you can get 18mm mdf from ebay for £11 a sheet and they tell you their buy in price is higher than that...


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## sploo (12 Feb 2015)

mind_the_goat":2dzksed3 said:


> I picked up some of the Wickes hardwood ply a few months back, seems better than anything I've found in the other sheds. Didn't find any voids at all


The Wickes Non Structural Hardwood Plywood (dark brown outer layer)? At my local place that ply is possibly the worst I've ever used - it splinters if you even look at it, and it tends to have more voids than solids (if you get my point). Utterly awful stuff. I think it used to be better (I've got some old sheets in the garage that aren't as bad as the recent stuff they're cr*pping out).



Graham Orm":2dzksed3 said:


> Jewsons will always negotiate.


Well, oddly I called my local branch and got a fairly dotty young lady (who to be fair was trying to be helpful). She somewhat misunderstood my query and ended up adding several sheets to an order (I just wanted the price per sheet). The price per sheet was still high, and she went and checked with her boss, who confirmed that was the price (because I wasn't buying much). I suspect I could get a better price if I wanted 20 sheets, of course.




Mark A":2dzksed3 said:


> Someone asked why so many US builders seems to have mountains of Birch Ply... (I can't quote)
> 
> While over in the States last summer I called into a Home Depot store and was shocked at the prices of everything.
> 
> ...


But no health service... I guess it's swings and roundabouts, but yea, they do have it good when it comes to tooling and materials.




tomf":2dzksed3 said:


> Wisa ply from Jewsons or TP is adequate for you needs, you should not be paying anymore than £25inc vat a sheet for 18mm and that would include delivery if you get a cash card.
> 
> Builders merchants do annoy me however when you can get 18mm mdf from ebay for £11 a sheet and they tell you their buy in price is higher than that...


£25!!!! Can any old Joe get a cash card with them then, or do you need to be trade?


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## tomf (12 Feb 2015)

sploo":2sonymfx said:


> Can any old Joe get a cash card with them then, or do you need to be trade?


Yes anyone can get a cash card. You want to speak to the people who actually do the quoting not the front desk one as they will pull up your account and give you the list/ account price. This is normally so heavily inflated it's ridiculous but then then do this so they can 'knock' 50% off.

I pay £23 for 18mm wisa, £20 for 18mm MDF, £16 9mm MDF, £24 18mm MRMDF the MDF is all kronospan I think but iId check. So it's a bit like swings and roundabouts.


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## Bodgers (12 Feb 2015)

tomf":3t34t3z0 said:


> sploo":3t34t3z0 said:
> 
> 
> > Can any old Joe get a cash card with them then, or do you need to be trade?
> ...



That 18mm wisa has to be the full softwood wisa, not the twin stuff. You can get 18mm full sheet of MDF from Wickes for less than 20. B&Q is 20 (Metsäwood).

I might try this at the weekend.

Never been able to get a discount so far. "The price is the price" as I've been told before.

I take it you are a trade buyer to get these rates?


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