# Millers Fall No1 Spokeshave



## Alan Smith (26 Mar 2008)

Has anyone got/use a spokeshave like this? I inherited this from my Grandfather sadly the blade and cap were missing. I'd like to make replacements but would like an idea of what the originals looked like. I've scoured the web for info and although there are a good number of images none show clearly what the blade and cap look like. If anyone has one of these I wonder if I might request some photos or even some rough measured sketches. Thanks in advance for any help.

Alan


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## Philly (26 Mar 2008)

Think Waterhead is the man for this.
Philly


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## jonbikebod (26 Mar 2008)

Alan,
The blade is like part of a cylinder that passes around the outside and has a bevel on the round edges that the two screws secure it with. The straight edge of this part cylinder is bevelled, this both sharpens the spokeshave and forms part of the ‘sole’. There are a couple of people making reproductions in America, the reproduction blades may well fit. Try highland hardware, they were selling one of the reproductions.
I can take some pics and post them but I am stuck here at work this evening.
It is well worth restoring this ‘shave as the can get in where other shaves are too bulky as well cutting the tightest radius which can also be useful for things like plane and saw handles.
Jon.


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## Chris Knight (26 Mar 2008)

Alan,
As Philly says, I can help.

See here for photos.

The blade is not easy to sharpen but I found that with the small knife jig, I could present it to my Tormek at the right angle. It is also not the easiest shave in the world to use and you have to develop a feel for it. I found the whole process ultimately worthwhile and I like this shave for its ability to cut quite tight radii. There are other more modern shaes on the market that will do this however and if that's what you want to do, have a look at Woodjoy tools. They are beautifully made and work very well.

To make a curved blade like this will be quite a challenge I feel - ask Newt for advice!


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## Alan Smith (26 Mar 2008)

Thank you all very much. It's actually much simpler in design than I had imagined. At least all I have to make is a cutter, looks like I'll be firing up the forge at the weekend then!


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## Alan Smith (27 Mar 2008)

I've done a model of what I think I'm seeing in your photographs, I've assumed (dangerous) a blade material thickness of 1.5mm, would this be about right??

Current thinking is to make up a couple of simple dies and press the part cylinder under the hydraulic press, grind the bevels, harden,temper then final grind and polish.


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## Racers (27 Mar 2008)

Hi, Alan

I have just checked my Millars Falls No1 and the blade is 2.4mm or 1/10 of an inch thick. How about boring out the centre of a piece of silver steel of the right diameter and then cutting it, I recon you could get 3 blades out of each one. Any one need a spare handle? mine came with a odd ones, so I made two new ones slightly fatter than the originals, so I have one original handle spare.


Pete


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## Alan Smith (27 Mar 2008)

Poo, 2.4mm is going to take a lot more force to bend. To bore out silver steel I need to start with 20mm dia and bore 17mm for 55mm depth, that's probably more than my current lathe can handle. looks like I may need to compromise here.


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## bugbear (28 Mar 2008)

Alan Smith":1ox9qmtr said:


> I've done a model of what I think I'm seeing in your photographs, I've assumed (dangerous) a blade material thickness of 1.5mm, would this be about right??
> 
> Current thinking is to make up a couple of simple dies and press the part cylinder under the hydraulic press, grind the bevels, harden,temper then final grind and polish.



Got more metalworking facilties than most of, do I perceive 

BugBear (quite jealous)


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## Alan Smith (28 Mar 2008)

Bugbear, all my metal working tools/skills came from a need to repair or build woodworking or forestry tools/equipment. Two skills a woodworker can't do without, forging iron and welding steel


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## jonbikebod (30 Mar 2008)

Alan,
I will see if I can source some 22mm silver steel. I am reasonably confident I can bore it out to 17mm on my lathe but not to a superfine finish. This is important because that inside curve forms one part of the cutting edge. This will need to be done after it has been split and probably by hand.
So If I bore a section of 22mm stock and chamfer the ends, how would you feel about splitting it in two lengthwise, hardening and tempering to make two blades (I can’t easily heat treat at the moment). You could post one half back to me and finish the other yourself?
In making the initial ‘tube’ I have the advantage of an original to use as a pattern of course.
Like Chris, I found the best tool for forming the cutting bevel is a Tormek. The big problem is holding the thing.
Any use?
Jon.


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## bugbear (31 Mar 2008)

jonbikebod":1kprsfkc said:


> Alan,
> I will see if I can source some 22mm silver steel. I am reasonably confident I can bore it out to 17mm on my lathe but not to a superfine finish.



Perhaps you could look up how the model engineering boys polish the inside of their cylinders to get an air-tight piston fit?

BugBear


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## David C (31 Mar 2008)

Lapping, with an expandable rotating lap of soft metal such as copper. Maybe hardwood, ally or perspex would also do.

I wonder if a replacement blade from the USA maker of the repro, would not be a simpler solution?

David


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## Racers (31 Mar 2008)

Hi, David


> I wonder if a replacement blade from the USA maker of the repro, would not be a simpler solution?



Simpler but not as much fun :wink: 

Pete


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## Alan Smith (31 Mar 2008)

Sorry been away from computer all weekend, roped into gardening, however I did manage to get some workshop time as you will see below.

Jon, kind offer but can you hold fire till I see how my idea works out.

David ( just finished your "Guide to hand tools and methods" thoroughly enjoyed it thanks) as far as I can determine the new reproductions are enlarged versions of the originals, whether this is just the handles or the whole tool is not clear.


I made a start on building the dies and have actually made a blade albeit of mild steel, just to prove the process whilst I wait for the tool steel to arrive from J+L.





This is the mild steel coupon, prebevelled sides to engage screws on shave. This is 4mm steel I think, thicker than will be used for the real thing.






Set up in the dies on the press.






Out the dies and looking good.






Rough bevel ground and fitted to shave. I did have to lap this to fit but I'm not anticipating this problem with the tool steel which will be thinner, plus I'm going to experiment with shims to get a perfect inner diameter.

Next challenge will be heat treating this without distorting the whole shooting match.


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## bugbear (31 Mar 2008)

David C":mnwf7pkg said:


> Lapping, with an expandable rotating lap of soft metal such as copper. Maybe hardwood, ally or perspex would also do.



You got some experience other than woodworking tucked away, Mr C?

BugBear


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## jonbikebod (31 Mar 2008)

I am very impressed with that Alan. 
You must have a pretty serious press to form that cold. 

BB some of us have found more bottomless holes to fill with tools… :twisted: 
I can stop buying them anytime of course. :roll: 
Jon.


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## David C (31 Mar 2008)

Alan,

So glad you enjoyed my third book. That cold bending is most impressive!

Bugbear,

Just a little with model engineering, a couple of Stuart Turner steam engine models, and a centre flue marine boiler.

Best wishes,
David


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## Alan Smith (8 Apr 2008)

Short update for anyone following this thread. The ground flat stock has arrived from J+L so ready to go on that front, stupidly however, whilst visiting family in Scotland at the weekend I slipped and fell on a steep staircase and have fractured my scapula (shoulderblade). So that's me out of action for 4 weeks. Particularly bad as I'm self-employed. Luckily I can still use a mouse and type slowly!


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## jonbikebod (8 Apr 2008)

Sorry to hear that Alan. 
Hope the shoulder blade mends soon, sounds painful.
Jon.


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## Racers (9 Apr 2008)

Hi. Allen

You will have to make some new "blades" from O1 :wink: 

Get well soon.


Pete


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## Alan Smith (10 Apr 2008)

Thanks guys, need all the sympathy I can get! It's the work thing that's hacking me off most. Luckily I had only a little work booked this month, one of my clients has said quite happy to wait as long as it takes which is reassuring.

Alan


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## bugbear (14 Apr 2008)

Coincidence department presents...

I got a Millers Falls no. 1 spokeshave yesterday, (with horrid user made replacement handles - length of broom stick I think).

Anyway, the blades fairly mangled at the moment.

Having cleaned of the garbage, I noted that the inner surface is rather poor.

Having puttered around the workshop, I arrived at the following solution for re-finishing the inner surface.

A piece of copper (water) pipe, diameter 1 1/8" was held endways in my face vise, and a piece of abrasive held on it. The curved blade self registers on the pipe, and the curve of the pipe polishes the inner surface nicely.







Now - does anybody have any information about what the geometry of the bevel (both inner and outer) is MEANT to be, or what works best?

BugBear


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## bugbear (17 Apr 2008)

I have now ground and honed the outside bevel; I made a simple blade hold from plywood and a strip of metal.






Once the blade is fixed in the holder, sharpening can proceed along (fairly) conventional lines.

BugBear


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## Alan Smith (17 Apr 2008)

Hi BB,

I'm pleased to see you have figured this out, nice jig by the way. I've still not been allowed out to the workshop yet but I think this weekend on the grounds that a little light work might be considered physiotherapy I might get back to my blade making exercise.

On the inside of the blade did you actually create a bevel or have you just polished? Any thoughts on what your external bevel angle is? hard to describe this I suppose it must be an angle relative to a tangent line really.

By the way I found a nice picture in Garret Hacks planes book which clearly shows the bevel.

Alan


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## jonbikebod (17 Apr 2008)

BB,
That jig looks a nice simple holding solution for bevel grinding. 
As far as bevel geometry goes, I would suggest you go easy on the inner surface. The reason I say that is mine appeared to only ever have been sharpened this way (it is much easier). Although reasonably sharp, when I got it, it wouldn’t take a shaving at all. That is, as the blade was rotated to open the mouth, it didn’t cut at all and then suddenly took out huge chunks; nothing in between. Like a plane with a non-flat sole only worse.
The problem seemed to be that in removing metal from the inside, the main bevel got shorter. As this bevel is also in effect the rear section of the sole, this messed up the cutting dynamic. It would also alter the effective pitch which would have ended up more of a scrape.
Honing the inside is essentially applying a back-bevel and with all back-bevels, removing them requires a heck of a lot of metal removing from the main bevel. In the case of a #1 it also stops the blade from ‘bedding’ with the body which would eventually make it more chatter prone.
It is almost impossible to specify blade geometry is as there is no handy datum. The angle of the main bevel is quite critical though. The way I did it was simply offering the blade up to the shave. If the bevel is too obtuse, the trailing edge of the bevel will rub and stop the leading edge from cutting; lengthening the bevel progressively - generating an appropriate clearance angle - until the shave cuts with a fine mouth, did the trick.
With my blade, so much metal has been removed from the inside, there wouldn’t be much blade left if I completely removed the inner bevel. 

Alan, that was why I suggested a collaborative effort to make some more. I have now got some 22 mm silver steel stock so when I get a chance I will be trying out the Bugbear/Charlesworth lapping to size idea inside the cylinder (‘just love the collective creativity of this forum). I suspect I would only then need to remove the wire edge from the inside and no more.

I hope this helps,
Jon.


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## Alan Smith (17 Apr 2008)

Jon,

I'm perfectly happy still to get involved with your blade making effort. I think I'll experiment on hardening and tempering my own first before risking any of yours. Regarding the tempering aspect one good thing is that we have just recently got a new electric oven for the kitchen. So what you say. Well this has a digitally controlled oven and goes to ridiculously high (for cooking) temperatures. Should make the tempering a breeze!! Is there a fingers crossed emoticon?

Which part of Kent you in Jon? I'm often working over Maidstone/Ashford and Dover.


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## jonbikebod (17 Apr 2008)

That is a very kind offer Alan, but don’t hold your breath, I haven’t managed to get much time in the workshop recently. 
It was more achieving the temperature for hardening that is probably beyond my propane torch. I have been intending building a small forge inspired by the one Philly (of this Parish) made and describes on his blog. The digitally controlled, high temperature oven sounds fascinating but I was thinking of about 200ºC for tempering which my oven should do. Certainly a simpler proposition than running the colours on something that shape….
I am in Orpington which is just inside the M 25 (bottom right-hand corner). If you stray this close to the metropolis, give me a yell. I work shifts so it is a bit pot luck.
Jon.


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## bugbear (21 Apr 2008)

Alan Smith":tpkikzwx said:


> Hi BB,
> 
> I'm pleased to see you have figured this out, nice jig by the way. I've still not been allowed out to the workshop yet but I think this weekend on the grounds that a little light work might be considered physiotherapy I might get back to my blade making exercise.
> 
> On the inside of the blade did you actually create a bevel or have you just polished?



There was already and extensive inner bevel, which I have now made uniform and polished.



> Any thoughts on what your external bevel angle is? hard to describe this I suppose it must be an angle relative to a tangent line really.



Wouldn't even know how to specify the damn thing 

BugBear


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## Alan Smith (22 Apr 2008)

Well, got it done at last. Looks OK so far, possibly a little distortion when hardening but it sits nice and positively on the spokeshave body. Now I have to build a sharpening jig like Bugbear's. Sorry can't do a photo as Mrs S has got the camera.


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## Alan Smith (22 Apr 2008)

Talk about speaking too soon!! Having tempered the blade I built a copy of Bugbear's sharpening jig and put on a rough bevel. Stuck it on the spokeshave and it worked, cut beautifully long and end grain. The bevel I had ground was a bit wobbly so wanting to get it right took it back to the jig. Big mistake! Have a nice straight shiny bevel but will it cut? Like 'ell it will. Have tried lenghthening bevel, putting in a short internal bevel but I can't get it to work. Best thing to do in a situation like this is pack it away for another day but meantime anyone got a piccy of what the bevel(s) should look like? Please!!

Alan


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## jonbikebod (22 Apr 2008)

Alan,
Chris (Waterhead37) posted a link to his photos earlier. 
I created a single bevel on the Tormek and then found it quite easy to balance the blade on that bevel and honed it on wet & dry. If you set the blade as Chris has in his photos and then offer up a straight edge to the ‘mouth’ area it should be pretty easy to see where metal needs to be removed to allow it to cut. A convex bevel will do this as well as the bevel being too short (the trailing edge of the bevel rubs before the cutting edge).
Then again, a beer or two and a good night’s sleep will probably work wonders as well…
Jon.


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## bugbear (23 Apr 2008)

Alan Smith":8lo2k8ju said:


> Talk about speaking too soon!! Having tempered the blade I built a copy of Bugbear's sharpening jig and put on a rough bevel.



I think you may be the first to ever copy my jig! Most people find it a "jig too far" (quite reasonably so...)

I have been receiving some information "in another place", which may help you.

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... =1#message

BugBear


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## Alan Smith (23 Apr 2008)

Hi BB, thanks for that pointer. So looks like really long outside bevel and nothing inside.

Your jig by the way I put a couple of wheels on the opposite end and can whizz it up on down on a sheet of wet and dry.


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## Alan Smith (24 Apr 2008)

Right I think I have sussed out where I'm going wrong. I tried grinding fresh bevels repeatedly today but found that with each new bevel the situation was getting worse. 

I've got the bevel shape right now, I'm sure of that however the problem i'm encountering is due to distortion of the blade that presumably occurred at hardening. As each new bevel is ground and therefore approaching the middle of the blade the radius of the blade is getting tighter and tighter so the bevel of the blade which is tangential to the blade is not parallel to the tangent of the shave body, it dips below the circumference of the shave body.

The other problem I've found is that I've made the blade too wide circumferentially and shavings were not escaping properly.

So it looks as if it is back to square one albeit with a little more knowledge. I'd completely drawn the temper of the blade anyway by repeated grinding but at least I know what I'm doing now.


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## Racers (24 Apr 2008)

Hi,

Heres a couple of photos of mine it works well so it should giive you a guide to bevel lenght etc




close up




No inner bevel just a thin polished line.
Its got new slightly fatter handles.

Pete


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## Racers (24 Apr 2008)

Hi, 

Couldn't resist, 300 post! not many compaired to some  


Pete


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## Alan Smith (24 Apr 2008)

Thanks for the photos Pete, I'm certainly getting bevels like that so looks as if I'm going to have to look harder at keeping the correct blade radius.


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## bugbear (25 Apr 2008)

Racers":1hzujpqo said:


> Hi,
> 
> Heres a couple of photos of mine it works well so it should giive you a guide to bevel lenght etc
> close up
> ...



Thanks for that Pete; most helpful.

Sadly, my blade had an _extensive_ inner bevel when purchased.

BugBear


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## Racers (25 Apr 2008)

Hi, Bugbear

Re-grind the other end?


Pete


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## Alan Smith (1 May 2008)

Finally got round to making second attempt. This one works, and beautifully too. I can see why people like these, it was definately worth the effort.


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## bugbear (1 May 2008)

Alan Smith":1wbm93zu said:


> Finally got round to making second attempt. This one works, and beautifully too. I can see why people like these, it was definately worth the effort.



=D> =D> =D> 

BugBear


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