# getting ash wood to take on oil pigment/stain



## Anonymous (2 Dec 2006)

Is there any way to treat ash so as it will take on stain more effectiveley?
As you know it quickly gets glassy smooth from sanding or burnishing and the stain tends to smear over rather than take up well. I use oil glaze stains made from artistes oil colour and real turpentine. Has any one any sudgestions please? :lol: 
cheers Jonathan


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## Philly (2 Dec 2006)

Jon
How about sealing the surface of the ash, letting it dry (say with shellac?) then applying a glaze over the top. This will give a uniform application as the stain isn't being absorbed directly into the pores.
Then apply your top coat.
Hope this is of help
Philly


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## Anonymous (2 Dec 2006)

Thanks for that Phil

I'm beginning to think maybe its a case of using several thin layers, particularly as I want differnt contasting colours layered over each other then cut back with emory or a scourer pad to get a distressed texture like on old country furnitures. Its not so much unevenness, rather that the wood itself is next to almost totally non absorbant. Whereas beech is more like a sponge :lol: Good tip about the sealer though. Actually when I think about it I've been using danish oil as a sort of sealer :lol: 
cheers Jonathan


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## Philly (2 Dec 2006)

No problem-hope it works out right :wink: 
Philly


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## Colin C (2 Dec 2006)

Hi Jonathan

Have you tried water stains because if you be you can put a little ammonia in it to help the stain bite in.
What colours are you using ?


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## Anonymous (2 Dec 2006)

evening Colin  how are ye doing mate?

At the moment the colours I'm using are quality artists oil paints cut with real turpentine (I love that smell much nicer than bostick :lol: ) and accelerated with a touch of terebene juice. The paints are obviously pigment based, am I right thinking a stain is not pigment based? Mind even in normal use some pigments are powerfuller than others. eg Indian red, prussian blue very powerful ones
The ammonia thing sounds promising, something that physically doctors the wood surface so you get better take up of colour. Would that be a very weak touch of ammonia, and whats an easy and cheap way to obtain it? Are water stain's inexpensive also? 
cheers Jonathan 

PS just another thought-is it possible to use the ammonia to prepare the wood surface (ash) but still use my oil glaze's for colouring if I let it dry?


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## Colin C (2 Dec 2006)

Hi Jonathan,

I am fine by the way  , just waiting for a customer to get a rad moved so I can fit two units I have made :roll: ( took the job to her about 3 weeks ago  )

As for getting the stains try 
Jenkins for more advice as I would not be sure about getting the oil stain to bite in better ( they are very good and will give you the advice you need), I use them as they are down the road from me.

The thing with pigment is they are powder based ( if I have it right) and some timbers dont do so well with them as you have found.

You can also get the ammonia from them too  

I hope this helps


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## johnnyb (4 Dec 2006)

if you must use oil stain try sanding to 120 only. try using dye based stains instead. these can be water or spirit based. an example would be morrells light fast or water stain. the difference is the size of the colour particles. pigments are huge and dyes are minute. different effect. many water stains such as liberon are still pigment based(like thin paint). dyes tend to penetrate almost any wood but are trickier to apply with overlaps causing banding. the pigment tends to be wiped off the wood but stains the pores very dark as it gets caught their.


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## Sgian Dubh (5 Dec 2006)

mr. s, I've always held to the old notion that dyes and stains are different. Dyes dissolve completely in the carrying medium and physically change the colour of the wood cells. On the other hand stains are made with a carrying medium-- water, spirit or oil and contain colourant made of large pigments that don't dissolve fully and largely don't penetrate the wood fibres. There's a third type which is a hybrid, i.e., dye stains. They contain both dye and pigments-- they dye the wood and lodge pigment in open pores.

For the most part if I want to change and get an even background colour to the wood I use dyes. However, even dyes used directly on wood will be taken up more by the spongier tissues found in the open pores of things like ash, elm and oak. If I then want to highlight the grain of the wood I choose a stain, sometimes called a pigment stain. This sounds like it's essentially what you're making using your artists colours. 

I don't use stains much on fine pored woods like maple, beech and sycamore, unless I choose to sand to something coarse like 120 or 150 grit-- see the next sentence but one for why. I do use them on coarse or open pored timbers like ash, chestnut, oak, and semi-open pored woods like mahogany and walnut. The stain is intended to lodge pigment in the open pores (spring growth in ring porous woods) to highlight the open grain, either by blending into the background with a darker colour, or by adding a contrasting colour.

I may have misread you, but it sounds to me that you are attempting to achieve a dyeing effect with a stain. It'll colour the open pores but simply wipes off the tighter grained summer wood.

Pigment stains need a binder to bind the pigments to the wood. Ready made canned versions often contain a bit of varnish or linseed oil to act as the binder, perhaps only about 3%- 7% by volume. You might try adding one or the other of these to your mix, or even both.

Adding ammonia to dyes is an old trick to make them bite a bit more. It works best on tannin rich woods that react with ammonia where it darkens them slightly, thus emphasising the colour change. 0.880 ammonia is the stuff most people use for fuming and adding to dyes. It's industrial grade stuff so it's not always easy to buy. Slainte.


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## Anonymous (5 Dec 2006)

Thanks for that Sgian 8) 

Perhaps the reason some oil pigments are more powerful than other's (eg indian red, prusian blue) is because they are finer?
I think your right I have been trying to dye with a stain :shock: But I got a few idea's to try out, I like to expeirment :lol:


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