# Taking a plunge to kitchen cabinet making



## learning_rocks

Hi All,

Thanks for all the information on the forum. Finally taking a plunge (Design is all in place, using Sketchup). Will add the design to the thread later.

Plan is to buy 1200 x 2400 oak veneered ply (A/B grade) from http://cambridgetimber.co.uk/Oakplywood.html Thought of going with a local company to get the delivery charges to min. Still having doubts to go with veneered birch core A/B, or plain B/BB birch plywood

Going with pocket screws and gluing. Wish me luck and any info and pitfalls I might fall into.

Thanks

Vin


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## learning_rocks

Quick doubt, came to know the oak veneer is just .8mm, is that a good candidate for cabinet making?


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## custard

That's thicker than usual, most commercial veneers are 0.6mm. Even if you make your own saw cut veneers you wouldn't normally exceed 1.2mm thick (1.5mm at the absolute max), unless you were "cladding" onto a solid timber substrate. So, the answer to your question is yes, you're fine with that.

More of an issue than your materials are your skills and experience. Not having a go, but it rings warning bells when someone says they're going to put a kitchen together with pocket screws. 

You'll probably spend more on veneered ply than you would just buying in ready made cabinets. But if you're determined to do the whole job yourself, and you've never actually made any cabinetry before, then before spending a packet on sheet goods at least have a trial run making a basic cabinet for the workshop, say something like a router table base or a storage unit, using lower grade ply.


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## SteveF

I am building my own kitchen
do I have the skills? who knows, time will tell
the material of choice for me was veneered mdf
swore blind i would not have a chipboard kitchen, never ever ever
turns out after a lot of thought, i would have less chance of sealing a veneered kitchen against water and stains, i am using egger mfc with tulip face frames
sort of feels a bit of a let down, but rather that than have it ruined in a few months from poor protection
just my 2 cents

Steve


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## Chip shop

I agree with custard, I obviously don't know your skill level and haven't seen your design but the thought of fitting a kitchen (if it is fitted rather than free standing) with anything other than bought in cabs sounds horrible. I've fitted a few. I sometimes make the doors and occasionally make custom cabs for awkward spaces, but for a full runs of cabinets I'd be be buying...preferably pre-built.

I have a pro-ish kit setup - panel saw (Robland, but heyho perhaps one day an Altendorf), CNC, edgebander, spray booth etc, kit to handle jumbo sheets and shed loads of space to do it in, but wouldn't consider making as a viable option. 

Just my opinion, obvs. There's far more experienced kitchen guys than me on here.


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## johnnyb

I've made a few kitchens and I really liked parana pine blockboard. Unfortunately it's now cites and blockboard is tricky to source. As pros of course don't get involved but with a determined attitude and a lot of thought yes it can be done. 
I've made (for money) many built ins using b and q spruce ply. It's a bit of a crapshot how flat it is but the finish is fine sanded and knot free(ish) also there big saw can be a powerful Ally.


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## learning_rocks

custard":yndugqir said:


> But if you're determined to do the whole job yourself, and you've never actually made any cabinetry before, then before spending a packet on sheet goods at least have a trial run making a basic cabinet for the workshop, say something like a router table base or a storage unit, using lower grade ply.



I have made some basic stuffs, shelves etc. Also have a scheppach precisa 3.0, hopefully that would give me precise cuts. Glad to know that .8 mm veneered birch would do the trick. Was a bit worried that any sanding may expose the inner veneer. Thanks for the advice


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## doctor Bob

As someone who makes a living from making kitchens, I'd just offer this advise, plan well and check everything fits and will open.
Remember drawers have to clear handles when in a corner, appliances only work with certain thickness doors. Leave space for worktop and coving overhangs.
Often appliances (fridges / freezers) have to be a certain distance from walls
How are you going to veneer your cut edges?


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## sammy.se

Hi dr Bob

How would the OP best know the dimensions needed for an integrated appliance, e.g. a fridge like in your example?

Especially with an inset door?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## D_W

doctor Bob":3q0pz25z said:


> As someone who makes a living from making kitchens, I'd just offer this advise, plan well and check everything fits and will open.
> Remember drawers have to clear handles when in a corner, appliances only work with certain thickness doors. Leave space for worktop and coving overhangs.
> Often appliances (fridges / freezers) have to be a certain distance from walls
> How are you going to veneer your cut edges?



as someone who just finished their own and who doesn't make cabinets professionally, I'd emphasize this. 

I'd go so far as to say I'd rather have a semi-finished space and then check the function and space tolerances for each cabinet as you go (not just at the beginning). I didn't change my cabinet layout, but I did change the locations of some things in cabinets, and I checked everything twice.

I did as custard said, and probably spent more on materials (Two A-face cherry plywood and solid cherry with raised panels for the front) than RTA cabinets would've cost. But I got everything just the way I wanted it, and just have to get trim up yet.

I did about half of the wood work entirely by hand, so it took a while. The skills of working by hand made all of the fitting a LOT easier. 

Not sure how you're going to do the fronts, but I used face frame (I know that's going out style, or went out a decade ago, whatever). I left the faces a quarter wide over the outside of the box and hand planed the fit of everything with that squish as the cabinets were going up. 

Biggest challenge in the whole process was the glue up of the cabinets. My construction is rabbet and dado with glue, very few screws. Getting the box together, glued and the face frame on and everything square before any of the glue sets (and it happens quickly on the dry face of rotary cut ply) was a bear.


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## thomashenry

I did this 2 years ago. Big undertaking, but I got there. I just used bog standard 18mm WBP ply, with poplar face frames. Doors were frame and panel, again poplar for the frame, 9mm ply for the floating panel.

Painted mine, so there was no benefit in buying anything other than bog standard ply.

I used pocket screws a lot on my build. I wouldn't use them again for my next project, but that's only because I now enjoy making hand cut joinery. For a not-quite-beginner (as I was 2 years ago), I think pocket screws are a good option. 

My kitchen also featured an integrated fridge freezer and dishwasher, inside face frame cabinets with inset doors. This is easy enough to do if you plan and measure:






The opening of my face frame is calculated as width of appliance + 20mm (door thickness) + 3mm (extra clearance, space for the sliders that slave the fridge door to the cabinet door).


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## Nelsun

If you do go with pocket holes, I'd want to plug them one way or another to avoid moisture getting to exposed wood. Kreg do packs of plugs (wood and plastic) or there's other ways like dowels (YouTube has several videos on the very subject). Both methods want trimming flush... or maybe not if it's all hidden. My favourite method is using 2-part car body filler as it, unlike plugs, fills any tear out and sands flat and smooth in a jiffy.


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## Doug71

doctor Bob":2ezt850u said:


> As someone who makes a living from making kitchens, I'd just offer this advise, plan well and check everything fits and will open.
> Remember drawers have to clear handles when in a corner, appliances only work with certain thickness doors. Leave space for worktop and coving overhangs.
> Often appliances (fridges / freezers) have to be a certain distance from walls
> How are you going to veneer your cut edges?



I fitted a kitchen that was designed and supplied by Howden joinery, it was all fine until the oven was in place and then the drawer in the corner only opened about 75mm because it hit the oven handle #-o


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## thomashenry

Nelsun":36ln3gb7 said:


> If you do go with pocket holes, I'd want to plug them one way or another to avoid moisture getting to exposed wood. Kreg do packs of plugs (wood and plastic) or there's other ways like dowels (YouTube has several videos on the very subject). Both methods want trimming flush... or maybe not if it's all hidden. My favourite method is using 2-part car body filler as it, unlike plugs, fills any tear out and sands flat and smooth in a jiffy.



I plugged mine with dowels, trimmed them with a handsaw, planed them flat and used wood filler to fill any tiny gaps. After painting, you couldn't tell where the pocket holes were.


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## custard

thomashenry":ffpun60s said:


> Painted mine, so there was no benefit in buying anything other than bog standard ply.



I remember commenting on how impressive your kitchen build was, but none the less I don't entirely agree with this. The problem with the lower grades of ply is that many of the imperfections, and indeed even the patched imperfections, can telegraph through paint and still be visible. A lot depends on the actual batch of ply you're working with, the type of paint, how it was applied, etc. So it's one of those things where one person might get away with it, but someone else gets caught out.


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## thomashenry

custard":kpjr3bqb said:


> thomashenry":kpjr3bqb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Painted mine, so there was no benefit in buying anything other than bog standard ply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember commenting on how impressive your kitchen build was, but none the less I don't entirely agree with this. The problem with the lower grades of ply is that many of the imperfections, and indeed even the patched imperfections, can telegraph through paint and still be visible. A lot depends on the actual batch of ply you're working with, the type of paint, how it was applied, etc. So it's one of those things where one person might get away with it, but someone else gets caught out.
Click to expand...


Fair point. All my ply surfaces were on the inside of cabinets only. If my ply was visible on the outside, then I would have been disappointed to have visible imperfections as you describe. Where I had visible cabinet sides, I let the face frame overhang the outer face of the plywood by around 8mm, and put on some beaded TnG effect MDF sheet.


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## doctor Bob

Just to emphasis my previous point, someone has posted up how they fitted their fridge, which is great if you have bought a slider door fridge, completly different if you use door on door. There are many different appliances, most are fairly standard but you need to research them before buying to ensure you have the right ones. Just do your reseach on installation.
I prefer door on door cooling appliances as they are bigger internally than a similiar slider model, and look more integrated. 
I've been doing kitchens for 20 odd years now, there is no right or wrong way, I've seen them all. However over that 20 years we have refined our methods and the way they are built and installed. I think a lot of guys who do a one off kitchen over complicate thing big time.


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## custard

doctor Bob":dbbmxuk6 said:


> I think a lot of guys who do a one off kitchen over complicate thing big time.



That may well be true, but even without that problem they're still going to be painfully slow compared to an experienced kitchen guy.

I'm a full time furniture maker with a professionally equipped workshop, but whenever I do fitted work, or something in sheet goods, it always takes me twice as long as I expected. When I did our kitchen my wife was tearing her hair out at how slow it was. Even if I do something laughably straightforward like this router table,





I'll still lose a good hour or two just trying to remember how I last fitted drawer runners. 

Sheet goods don't automatically equal "quick and easy". Unless you're doing this stuff all the time there's still loads to figure out, and no shortage of things to go pear shaped!


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## AJB Temple

I've done a few kitchens and separate utility rooms in my own houses over the years. All custom made. It is not fast, especially if you all have a day job, but it can be very satisfying to say "I made it myself". So I encourage people to have a go. It helps if you have some alternative means of cooking, such as a decent BBQ. 

I have just done the concrete pour for my next kitchen, which is in a room about 10m by 8m. I still need to build a new utility room on the side, which will be somewhere around 6m by 3m. If my wife allows it, I will post up photos. At the moment it is just a n open 3 bay barn. I expect it to take me at least a year as there is a lot to do and I don't have much free time. In my case there is another working kitchen in the house, so this build is not critical.


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## akakjs

I'm currently about half way though my kitchen build (small kitchen only 10 or so cabs). I used a cutting service from my plywood supplier which has saved a mountain of time and doesn't add a huge amount to the material cost (10-20% maybe) and so far it's been very do-able. I'm not a professional woodworker so my progress is slow (100+ of hours) and there has been a lot learning along the way.

These are my tips/lessons learnt so far, many of these will be obvious to the more experienced but hopefully one or two will be helpful:

* Have a plan for everything written down (sketch-up is great for this kind of thing).
* I laid out the kitchen on the floor using masking tape when I was doing the design, it helped me visualise everything (I was starting with an empty room).
* Look for places to include a margin of error. For example my kitchen is a galley style, so I've allowed some extra space around the oven in case my cabinets on either side need a little extra room.
* Walls are not flat or plumb, no corner is square. At least in my house they're not  
* The previous advice about appliances is good, know the exact dimensions of each appliance and the margin required. Remember to account for things like wall socket location in your appliance depths.
* I've made extensive use of clamp-able squares to help during assembly ("90 Degree Positioning Squares" on amazon, I went with the metal ones).
* Get good sandpaper if your still using DIY store sandpaper it's like night and day.

If you can dedicate the time, I'd say do it but expect it to be a lot of work.


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## thomashenry

doctor Bob":1hfq1goy said:


> Just to emphasis my previous point, someone has posted up how they fitted their fridge, which is great if you have bought a slider door fridge, completly different if you use door on door. There are many different appliances, most are fairly standard but you need to research them before buying to ensure you have the right ones. Just do your reseach on installation.
> I prefer door on door cooling appliances as they are bigger internally than a similiar slider model, and look more integrated.
> I've been doing kitchens for 20 odd years now, there is no right or wrong way, I've seen them all. However over that 20 years we have refined our methods and the way they are built and installed. I think a lot of guys who do a one off kitchen over complicate thing big time.



Sure, there is that type of integrated fridge too. The reason I posted the diagram of the fridge is that someone had asked about how do do an integrated fridge with in-fame doors (rather than the more common frameless style). This implies butt hinges (at least it should...), so I think a sliding door mechanism is the only way to go for this scenario.


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## doctor Bob

thomashenry":192nx9sm said:


> Sure, there is that type of integrated fridge too. The reason I posted the diagram of the fridge is that someone had asked about how do do an integrated fridge with in-fame doors (rather than the more common frameless style). This implies butt hinges (at least it should...), so I think a sliding door mechanism is the only way to go for this scenario.



No it's not, I do this day in and day out, 25-35 kitchens a year, door on door works perfecrly well in a framed kitchen as well, if you know how to do it, thats all we do. I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm simply saying, look really closely how appliances work. there are a multitude of ways to do stuff.


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## thomashenry

doctor Bob":2zgq79zb said:


> thomashenry":2zgq79zb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, there is that type of integrated fridge too. The reason I posted the diagram of the fridge is that someone had asked about how do do an integrated fridge with in-fame doors (rather than the more common frameless style). This implies butt hinges (at least it should...), so I think a sliding door mechanism is the only way to go for this scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not, I do this day in and day out, 25-35 kitchens a year, door on door works perfecrly well in a framed kitchen as well, if you know how to do it, thats all we do. I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm simply saying, look really closely how appliances work. there are a multitude of ways to do stuff.
Click to expand...


How do the cabinet door's butt hinges work if it is stuck on to the fridge door? Not arguing, just curious! I figured it was impossible to hang the cabinet door on butt hinges with door-on-door.


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## Beau

Made ours from birch ply. Not difficult as such if you keep it simple but as it's custom there is a temptation to complicate matters to suit the space. Building the cabs was quick but painting them with multiple layers of varnish seemed to take forever. Never used pocket hole screws but do they not have a tendency to offset the joints when you tighten the screws? If so that would be right PITA. I used biscuits on ours and was surprised how many faces you could just screw through from the outside as they would get covered by another cabinet. The few faces that were left on show I did sash clamp and biscuit them together. Have fun with the build


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## thomashenry

Beau":16znwfve said:


> Made ours from birch ply. Not difficult as such if you keep it simple but as it's custom there is a temptation to complicate matters to suit the space. Building the cabs was quick but painting them with multiple layers of varnish seemed to take forever. *Never used pocket hole screws but do they not have a tendency to offset the joints when you tighten the screws?* If so that would be right PITA. I used biscuits on ours and was surprised how many faces you could just screw through from the outside as they would get covered by another cabinet. The few faces that were left on show I did sash clamp and biscuit them together. Have fun with the build



Yes they do! You need to clamp the joint really well in all dimensions before driving the screws, otherwise it will move.


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## johnnyb

I remember building something kitchen cabinets from birch ply and three screws in each part with some green resign after taking the screws out I had to beat the cabinet apart such was the strength of the glue alone! Try it. After that I thought dados( housings )are a pointless exercise.


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## thomashenry

johnnyb":wqezrkci said:


> I remember building something kitchen cabinets from birch ply and three screws in each part with some green resign after taking the screws out I had to beat the cabinet apart such was the strength of the glue alone! Try it. After that I thought dados( housings )are a pointless exercise.



Useful for alignment and accuracy when assembling though, gives you something to register your sheet against.


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## D_W

custard":1smkjc4g said:


> doctor Bob":1smkjc4g said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think a lot of guys who do a one off kitchen over complicate thing big time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may well be true, but even without that problem they're still going to be painfully slow compared to an experienced kitchen guy.
> 
> I'm a full time furniture maker with a professionally equipped workshop, but whenever I do fitted work, or something in sheet goods, it always takes me twice as long as I expected. When I did our kitchen my wife was tearing her hair out at how slow it was. Even if I do something laughably straightforward like this router table,
> 
> 
> I'll still lose a good hour or two just trying to remember how I last fitted drawer runners.
> 
> Sheet goods don't automatically equal "quick and easy". Unless you're doing this stuff all the time there's still loads to figure out, and no shortage of things to go pear shaped!
Click to expand...


I'm not advocating this for anyone else, but working one-off without a workflow planned, I found it just as fast to do all of the post sheet goods cutting work by hand. I had battens set up to use a plunge router for everything that couldn't be done accurately on the router table (e.g., laying out sheet goods and cutting dados across the back and sides - they have to all line up for obvious reasons). 

For my last cabinet, I modified an old dado plane to match the plywood and the amount of hassle was far less. the work was a little bit more physical, but more controlled. 

I won't talk specifically about time - I did a lot of my dimensioning by hand (ripping, thicknessing, jointing, etc) and did all of the face frame work mortise and tenon. For me to spend time with a bunch of fasteners or industry gimmicks, it would've taken just as long and I hate gimmicks.


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## thomashenry

D_W":v8g19tzu said:


> custard":v8g19tzu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> doctor Bob":v8g19tzu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think a lot of guys who do a one off kitchen over complicate thing big time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may well be true, but even without that problem they're still going to be painfully slow compared to an experienced kitchen guy.
> 
> I'm a full time furniture maker with a professionally equipped workshop, but whenever I do fitted work, or something in sheet goods, it always takes me twice as long as I expected. When I did our kitchen my wife was tearing her hair out at how slow it was. Even if I do something laughably straightforward like this router table,
> 
> 
> I'll still lose a good hour or two just trying to remember how I last fitted drawer runners.
> 
> Sheet goods don't automatically equal "quick and easy". Unless you're doing this stuff all the time there's still loads to figure out, and no shortage of things to go pear shaped!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not advocating this for anyone else, but working one-off without a workflow planned, I found it just as fast to do all of the post sheet goods cutting work by hand. I had battens set up to use a plunge router for everything that couldn't be done accurately on the router table (e.g., laying out sheet goods and cutting dados across the back and sides - they have to all line up for obvious reasons).
> 
> For my last cabinet, I modified an old dado plane to match the plywood and the amount of hassle was far less. the work was a little bit more physical, but more controlled.
> 
> I won't talk specifically about time - I did a lot of my dimensioning by hand (ripping, thicknessing, jointing, etc) and did all of the face frame work mortise and tenon. For me to spend time with a bunch of fasteners or industry gimmicks, it would've taken just as long and I hate gimmicks.
Click to expand...


I agree entirely. When I look back at the total time I've spent on woodworking projects, the amount of time I actually spend working the wood with a tool is not the dominant factor. Probably spend most of the time standing around figuring out what to do :mrgreen: 

So saving a minute by using a circular saw to cut a sheet of plywood, rather than use a handsaw - it doesn't really make much difference. If I'm not doing repeated cuts, then the handsaw is probably faster as the setup time is so much less. I packed away my table saw, power router, jigsaw, chopsaw etc earlier in the year, and I've not missed them yet.


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## Mark Begbie

A little tangential, but any feedback on how pocket hole screws work in standard MFC?


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## custard

Mark Begbie":3fz7ua6c said:


> A little tangential, but any feedback on how pocket hole screws work in standard MFC?



Not great. 

Neither MDF nor Melamine Faced Chipboard take fastenings particularly well, but of the two chipboard is probably the worst. When a screw fails in MDF it tends to just strip the threading, so a bit of epoxy in the hole will give you a second attempt. But when a screw fails in MFC it often tears out a chunk of material and fractures the melamine facing. It's not impossible, but go very carefully and let the glue take the strain, so the screws are really just acting as cramps while the glue sets.


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## Sideways

When we bought a kitchen many years ago and I realised that it would have to be chipboard on grounds of cost, we chose cabinets which were bonded together by injected nylon joints running the full length of all the major corners. Strictly a factory production technique . I've never regretted spending that bit extra on the boxes. Extremely stong. We have wall cabinets that have supported a substantial weight of crockery for > 25 years and look almost as good as the day they went in. I don't like chipboard but assembled with modern methods like this I've been impressed with ours.
So why not :
Buy good carcasses, CNC cut for accuracy at a speed you can never match with hand work and a precision that takes some effort to match.
Put your time, effort and skill into the bit that will be on display and carries the price premium - the doors
?


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## thomashenry

Sideways":3abpb0qw said:


> When we bought a kitchen many years ago and I realised that it would have to be chipboard on grounds of cost, we chose cabinets which were bonded together by injected nylon joints running the full length of all the major corners. Strictly a factory production technique . I've never regretted spending that bit extra on the boxes. Extremely stong. We have wall cabinets that have supported a substantial weight of crockery for > 25 years and look almost as good as the day they went in. I don't like chipboard but assembled with modern methods like this I've been impressed with ours.
> So why not :
> Buy good carcasses, CNC cut for accuracy at a speed you can never match with hand work and a precision that takes some effort to match.
> Put your time, effort and skill into the bit that will be on display and carries the price premium - the doors
> ?



This is ok for overlaid doors, but if you want the shaker style in-frame doors on butt hinges, you need to make the cabinets too.


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## tomatwark

thomashenry":18p8mocu said:


> This is ok for overlaid doors, but if you want the shaker style in-frame doors on butt hinges, you need to make the cabinets too.



Why?

You make up face frames, and fit them to the front of the carcases


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## thomashenry

tomatwark":2ve6by73 said:


> thomashenry":2ve6by73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is ok for overlaid doors, but if you want the shaker style in-frame doors on butt hinges, you need to make the cabinets too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> You make up face frames, and fit them to the front of the carcases
Click to expand...


You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.


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## doctor Bob

thomashenry":1zz5rbe0 said:


> tomatwark":1zz5rbe0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thomashenry":1zz5rbe0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is ok for overlaid doors, but if you want the shaker style in-frame doors on butt hinges, you need to make the cabinets too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> You make up face frames, and fit them to the front of the carcases
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.
Click to expand...


Buscuits, dominos, splines, lamello clicks, pocket holes, endless way of fixing.


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## thomashenry

doctor Bob":2cm8vado said:


> thomashenry":2cm8vado said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buscuits, dominos, splines, lamello clicks, pocket holes, endless way of fixing.
Click to expand...


Into carcasses made from chipboard? To fix face frames from which doors will be hung? Not my idea of quality work.


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## tomatwark

try pocket screwing a frame onto a mfc carcase see how difficult it is to force off, you are not screwing into the chipboard, you are screwing into the face frame

Then try hanging the door and trying to force it off, I bet the hinge will pull out before the frame comes off.

Pocket screwed face frames are the pretty much the standard way of fixing face frames in the industry.

I do them this way and probably a lot of others on here do as well


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## thomashenry

tomatwark":2u8tg1cd said:


> try pocket screwing a frame onto a mfc carcase see how difficult it is to force off, you are not screwing into the chipboard, you are screwing into the face frame
> 
> Then try hanging the door and trying to force it off, I bet the hinge will pull out before the frame comes off.
> 
> Pocket screwed face frames are the pretty much the standard way of fixing face frames in the industry.
> 
> I do them this way and probably a lot of others on here do as well



It's how I made my kitchen as well, but with plywood cabinets, not chipboard. At the end of the day, if you are doing for a customer, and they are happy with MFC cabinets, go for it I suppose. Perhaps it's my personal distaste for MFC that's clouding my judgement.


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## memzey

thomashenry":1bpjjw6s said:


> doctor Bob":1bpjjw6s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thomashenry":1bpjjw6s said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buscuits, dominos, splines, lamello clicks, pocket holes, endless way of fixing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Into carcasses made from chipboard? To fix face frames from which doors will be hung? Not my idea of quality work.
Click to expand...

FYI if you’d like some good examples of _top_ quality work in kitchen making then I recommend looking up some of doctor bob’s previously posted examples. They are as good as I have ever seen. 

On the topic of MFC - how much do people pay for 18mm Egger boards around the country? I’m down in St. Albans and have accepted the request of SWMBO that new kitchen cabinets should be my winter project. I was going to go with MDF or ply but this thread has dissuaded me (sorry in advance for the digression).


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## tomatwark

It will depend on the quantity and also the colour you are going for.

If it is white it will be cheaper than the wood grains, also if it is a popular one which the supplier sells a lot of, it makes a difference as well, so is worth asking for an alternative if they do not have the colour you are wanting in stock.

The bigger firms will have more choice as they will possibly have the colour you want at another depot.

You need to remember that these are not 8 x 4 sheets and are a pain to handle if you do not have the space, it may be worth getting the parts cut to size, as although it will put the price up it will save a lot of time and hassle, if you do not have the kit to cut them easily.

A track saw will do it but it is hard work and even for a bespoke kitchen you will have a lot of bits the same size such as the ends.


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## memzey

Good point on the size of the sheets. I do have a plunge saw and am well set up for working on 4’x8’ boards but MFC might be a bit too big and cumbersome. It will be either getting the panels cut to size for me or back to MDF/ply. I’m leaning towards MDF/ply I think (I inherently distrust chipboard).


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## tomatwark

In my old workshop I could not get them full size through the door, so I either did the first cut outside with a track saw, or more often then not got my supplier to rip 600mm down the length, the 600mm would then be cut into ends, it also made handling them easier on my own.

Now I have staff and a lot bigger workshop and kit we can handle them easily.


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## doctor Bob

thomashenry":3otm7joi said:


> doctor Bob":3otm7joi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thomashenry":3otm7joi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buscuits, dominos, splines, lamello clicks, pocket holes, endless way of fixing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Into carcasses made from chipboard? To fix face frames from which doors will be hung? Not my idea of quality work.
Click to expand...


OK I give up, 20 odd years of making kitchens and I'm doing it wrong as are mark wilkinson, smallbone, tom Howley, martin moore etc etc we are also using the wrong fridges.......... mind, you have built you're own kitchen so you must be the expert.


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## SteveF

i had a mad thought about face frame fixing
how about aluminium angle attached to the face frame at the back
then just screw to inside of cab, or outside if possible
would make a nice clean opening inside

I have seen them attached with small angle brackets...which was pretty nasty
I have not had the forward planning to pocket hole my cabinets prior to installing (school boy error)
and i would rather not brad them, and would like the option to remove if they get damaged
Steve


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## Sgian Dubh

doctor Bob":hebbuctd said:


> OK I give up, 20 odd years of making kitchens and I'm doing it wrong as are ...


If you keep at it a bit longer Bob, you might even be able to put together something that's passable. Don't give up just yet .. it'll come. Slainte.


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## SteveF

having seen the work Bob turns out,all I can say is wow
I am fairly confident he knows what he is talking about

Steve


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## thomashenry

doctor Bob":2aow9vdk said:


> thomashenry":2aow9vdk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> doctor Bob":2aow9vdk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Buscuits, dominos, splines, lamello clicks, pocket holes, endless way of fixing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Into carcasses made from chipboard? To fix face frames from which doors will be hung? Not my idea of quality work.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK I give up, 20 odd years of making kitchens and I'm doing it wrong as are mark wilkinson, smallbone, tom Howley, martin moore etc etc we are also using the wrong fridges.......... mind, you have built you're own kitchen so you must be the expert.
Click to expand...


No-one is questioning your credentials, after all, you never miss the chance to tell us you've been doing this 20 years. You obviously know exactly what you are doing, and have many many happy customers, and your stuff looks beautiful.

But it's not about right or wrong. It's just that in my personal opinion, both as a woodworker and a customer, chipboard is not a high quality material, and if I was paying top dollar for a bespoke kitchen from a company like Tom Howley, I'd be pretty disappointed if I got something made out plastic coated chipboard with face frames biscuited to the front. It's just not what I think of as quality work.

Regrading the dig about fridges - if there is a way to install a door-on-door integrated fridge to a cabinet with inset doors hung on butt hinges - I'd be genuinely interested to know how it's done. To me it seems impossible. If you want to hang your cabinet door on butt hinges, sliders are the only way I can fathom.


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## tomatwark

There is nothing wrong with MFC, the problem is that a company called MFI used it from the 70's on, with poor design and also poor fittings.

This gave it a bad reputation

Moving on 40 years if you buy a good quality MFC it is light years apart, and also the quality and design of the fittings is far better.

I am not saying all MFC kitchens are good, but it depends how you use it in the build.

Your average customer is not going to want to repaint or revarnish the insides of the units once finish gets marked, and MFC also is better to keep clean.

But maybe the likes of Bob, me and the rest of the industry should start using WBP ply and paint it, if it is such a high quality way of doing things.

We do use a lot of ply for painted bits, such as open shelves, door panels etc, but I would never use such an inferior quality ply as WBP and always use Birch Ply.


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## tomatwark

SteveF":x2p8b2o7 said:


> i had a mad thought about face frame fixing
> how about aluminium angle attached to the face frame at the back
> then just screw to inside of cab, or outside if possible
> would make a nice clean opening inside
> 
> I have seen them attached with small angle brackets...which was pretty nasty
> I have not had the forward planning to pocket hole my cabinets prior to installing (school boy error)
> and i would rather not brad them, and would like the option to remove if they get damaged
> Steve



Steve

If you have room for angle just run up a square piece of wood say 15 mm x 15 mm paint it the same colour as the frame and screw that to the inside of the frame and unit.

This is what I design, if there is a need in a kitchen design for the frame to have to be removed, say for access to pipes if something goes wrong.


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## thomashenry

tomatwark":dve47fj1 said:


> There is nothing wrong with MFC, the problem is that a company called MFI used it from the 70's on, with poor design and also poor fittings.
> 
> This gave it a bad reputation
> 
> Moving on 40 years if you buy a good quality MFC it is light years apart, and also the quality and design of the fittings is far better.
> 
> I am not saying all MFC kitchens are good, but it depends how you use it in the build.
> 
> Your average customer is not going to want to repaint or revarnish the insides of the units once finish gets marked, and MFC also is better to keep clean.
> 
> But maybe the likes of Bob, me and the rest of the industry should start using WBP ply and paint it, if it is such a high quality way of doing things.
> 
> We do use a lot of ply for painted bits, such as open shelves, door panels etc, but I would never use such an inferior quality ply as WBP and always use Birch Ply.



You should do whatever your customers are happy with - no issues with that. But if I was a customer, I wouldn't pay good money for things made out of plastic faced chipboard.


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## Sgian Dubh

Thomas, You'll no doubt have heard the adage 'If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging'. 

It might, at this point, be worth keeping that adage in mind, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## thomashenry

Sgian Dubh":31r8gwxi said:


> Thomas, You'll no doubt have heard the adage 'If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging'.
> 
> It might, at this point, be worth keeping that adage in mind, ha, ha. Slainte.



In a hole because I don't think chipboard cabinets are worthy of high quality work? I doubt I'm the only one in that particular hole.


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## Doug71

When I made my kitchen I used veneered ply and veneered mdf with plenty of coats of varnish for the insides, thought I was making a really good job. Now a few years on it looks scruffy and needs re finishing, if I did it again I would use MFC.


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## doctor Bob

I make carcases out of ply, birch ply, veneered birch ply, solid timber, I'd even make them out of Rhinocerous scrotums if the customer wanted it and I could source it. However I also make them out of MFC.
There is absolutely no compromise in the strength of the unit, they are fixed cabinets they never move.
You do not understand the product or how the cabinets are constucted. No the pineapple door will not pull off, no the pineapple carcase will not just disintergrate for no reason. The carcase is less likely to scratch compared to veneers, ply etc.
I really can't be bothered to answer the fridge question as I know you would tell me it's not your idea of doing a quality fitted fridge.


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## tomatwark

Bob 
Rhinocerous scrotums, a customer only asked this morning for their cabinets to made from them :lol:

At the end of the day it is what the customer wants, I suspect Bob, like myself will advised the customer of the pros and cons of each material and then go with their choice.


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## Nelsun

^^Very shoddy and will never last (making doors and carcases out of pineapples) (homer)


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## tomatwark

thomashenry":2e6awpp8 said:


> tomatwark":2e6awpp8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing wrong with MFC, the problem is that a company called MFI used it from the 70's on, with poor design and also poor fittings.
> 
> This gave it a bad reputation
> 
> Moving on 40 years if you buy a good quality MFC it is light years apart, and also the quality and design of the fittings is far better.
> 
> I am not saying all MFC kitchens are good, but it depends how you use it in the build.
> 
> Your average customer is not going to want to repaint or revarnish the insides of the units once finish gets marked, and MFC also is better to keep clean.
> 
> But maybe the likes of Bob, me and the rest of the industry should start using WBP ply and paint it, if it is such a high quality way of doing things.
> 
> We do use a lot of ply for painted bits, such as open shelves, door panels etc, but I would never use such an inferior quality ply as WBP and always use Birch Ply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should do whatever your customers are happy with - no issues with that. But if I was a customer, I wouldn't pay good money for things made out of plastic faced chipboard.
Click to expand...


I certainly would not pay good money for a bit of WBP ply with a coat of Dulux


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## thomashenry

doctor Bob":xhr1ralz said:


> I make carcases out of ply, birch ply, veneered birch ply, solid timber, I'd even make them out of Rhinocerous scrotums if the customer wanted it and I could source it. However I also make them out of MFC.
> There is absolutely no compromise in the strength of the unit, they are fixed cabinets they never move.
> You do not understand the product or how the cabinets are constucted. No the pineapple door will not pull off, no the pineapple carcase will not just disintergrate for no reason. The carcase is less likely to scratch compared to veneers, ply etc.
> I really can't be bothered to answer the fridge question as I know you would tell me it's not your idea of doing a quality fitted fridge.



I have a personal dislike of chipboard and don't think it has a place in high quality work. It's hardly the most controversial opinion out there, and it's certainly not a personal attack on you. I've no doubt that you know exactly what you are doing and do great work. My dislike and disdain for chipboard is not a personal attack on you.

The fridge door question could be useful to answer for others in the thread. Earlier in the thread, someone asked about how to install an integreated fridge into a face frame cabinet, and I (helpfully I thought) showed a diagram of how to do it with a door hung on butt hinges a and sliding mechanism. Obviously its also easy to do this with a door on door fridge, but I see no way to still have the cabinet door hung on butt hinges. As far as I can see, you have to forgo the hinges.


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## doctor Bob

I'm doing a kitchen in MFC at the moment, £220 a sheet rustic oak.
If i gave you a piece and it was edged all round you wouldn't know it was MFC, looks like a 200 year old oak floor. Deep grain, knots, distressed amazing.
Tech move forward, even chip knew that hence his use of veneers.


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## doctor Bob

Mfc is spectacular these days, I can get effects such as concrete, corten steel, copper, aged copper, antique brass, polished plaster, pressed aluminium, Marble, leathered stone, flaked stone, slate the effects are endless. These are not cheap products. As above at £220 a sheet it's about 3.5 times walnut veneers and 5 times oak veneers.


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## tomatwark

And you get the compact laminates 
https://www.egger.com/shop/en_GB//Compa ... TLAMINATES

I used some of this in a Bedroom as a thin top recently and it looked great.

People need to look at the possibilities, and not so much at the past.

If these products were around earlier they would have been used.


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## memzey

Very interesting. MFC does appear have moved on. 

Quick question to you bob if I may? Where do you source your egger boards from? You’re quite close to me and I might give them a call.


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## doctor Bob

Just so no one calls bullshite

















Looks even better when un wrapped, lots of deep knots and distressed areas


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## no idea

MFC is like Skoda - it was rubbish in the past so can never be better today :roll: 

A case of actual quality and perception getting mixed up?

I do find it odd that plywood kitchen units are seen as being high quality in comparison to MFC or MDF kitchen units - why not just make them out of real wood like oak, elm or walnut, because surely real wood is even more high quality and superior to plywood? #-o


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## MikeG.

doctor Bob":2gxxvfx2 said:


> ......I'd even make them out of Rhinocerous scrotums if the customer wanted it and I could source it........



 Rhinos have internal testicles, therefore rhino scrotum is as rare as rocking horse droppings........


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## Beau

no idea":29zn7ldv said:


> MFC is like Skoda - it was rubbish in the past so can never be better today :roll:
> 
> A case of actual quality and perception getting mixed up?
> 
> I do find it odd that plywood kitchen units are seen as being high quality in comparison to MFC or MDF kitchen units - why not just make them out of real wood like oak, elm or walnut, because surely real wood is even more high quality and superior to plywood? #-o



My gripe with MFC in the past is not the facings but the chipboard core. Over time water gets in and the chipboard swells causing havoc. Are the latest ones using a waterproof chipboard?


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## thomashenry

no idea":18ikqpd4 said:


> MFC is like Skoda - it was rubbish in the past so can never be better today :roll:
> 
> A case of actual quality and perception getting mixed up?
> 
> I do find it odd that plywood kitchen units are seen as being high quality in comparison to MFC or MDF kitchen units - why not just make them out of real wood like oak, elm or walnut, because surely real wood is even more high quality and superior to plywood? #-o



Not sure why you find it odd - surely if you surveyed people, most would rate plywood as a higher quality material than chipboard.


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## doctor Bob

Beau":1z126yqj said:


> My gripe with MFC in the past is not the facings but the chipboard core. Over time water gets in and the chipboard swells causing havoc. Are the latest ones using a waterproof chipboard?



In a kitchen or utility, water can only come from a sink unit, I put drip catchers into my sink units. If water gets on ply it will blow as well you know. If the leak is bigger than a drip catcher can handle well your pineapple!!d anyway whatever the material.
If it comes from a dishwasher or washing machine it will go on the floor and ruin your plinths or skirt.


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## doctor Bob

MikeG.":6nzxux69 said:


> Rhinos have internal testicles, therefore rhino scrotum is as rare as rocking horse droppings........



Mr G, font of all knowledge, reading trivia whilst waiting to bat?


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## MikeG.

Elephant testes are up by their kidneys, so their sperm has a 5 foot journey. No wonder they make such noise when they mate!!


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## Beau

doctor Bob":a0tyh2ti said:


> Beau":a0tyh2ti said:
> 
> 
> 
> My gripe with MFC in the past is not the facings but the chipboard core. Over time water gets in and the chipboard swells causing havoc. Are the latest ones using a waterproof chipboard?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a kitchen or utility, water can only come from a sink unit, I put drip catchers into my sink units. If water gets on ply it will blow as well you know. If the leak is bigger than a drip catcher can handle well your pineapple!!d anyway whatever the material.
> If it comes from a dishwasher or washing machine it will go on the floor and ruin your plinths or skirt.
Click to expand...

 I take your points but birch ply does not really blow like chip. Also some houses are just wet with condensation on exterior walls. Striped out a kitchen recently and the units had blown and there was no obvious explantation beyond condensation. Ply will expand if wetted but once the problem is sorted will shrink again. For most I dont think it matters as most folk I meet change kitchens remarkably often but I am hoping ours will do 20+ years. Time will tell. 

Your kitchens look lovely by the way


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## PiratePete

I've been having a read through all this discussion of materials. I can't see a problem with anything if it's finished properly.
Personally, I use birch ply almost exclusively, but MFC is fine and I've used it when asked for.
The birch ply is lacquered and I've never had a customer who wasn't impressed by the look and feel of it.
I've not tried pocket screwing. Biscuiting is my preferred technique and when held with screws while the glue sets gives an incredibly strong construction.
If the op hasn't got a biscuiter I'd advise to go get one as the cost will be instantly lost in the speed and convenience of assembling the carcasses.


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## Zeddedhed

About six years ago I made up some units for a mate who was setting up a spray finishing workshop in an old farm building. He'd partitioned off a small area to use as a kitchen. I made him 4 base units from 18mm Medite MR MDF, butt jointed and simply screwed together. The doors were just plain slabs of the same MDF with edge tape glued on. Pinned on a 6mm MDF back, plonked on an offcut of worktop and left him to it. He sprayed up the units, fitted a sink and got on with life.

I happened to be back in his workshop a few days ago and the kitchen looked as good as new. He told me that the plumbing under the sink had leaked a year or so ago and flooded the area but the units were fine.

I'm not too sure how this tale adds to the conversation other than to say that in this case the finish was more important than the substrate in as much as the protection it afforded when the leak happened. As the good Doc Bob says if you get more than a dribble on most surfaces it's game over whatever the material, unless it has about 8 coats of sprayed lacquer or whatever he used on my units.


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