# What would you charge for this?



## RGIvy (29 Oct 2020)

Hi folks
Did a small job for a local shop, a simple melamine top. I've never done paid woodwork before and have NO idea what to charge.
Alli-in-all about four hours, for that we:

Built a base for the top (pretty standard)
Cleaned edges of the melamine top with a router (they were quite ragged) and/or cut to size
Cut out two indents for the vents. This was done very carefully and neatly with a router.
Rounded one of the corners with a router (really neatly done as it's where everyone walks past)
Covered the edges with a strip (iron-on) self adhesive
The melamine board, supplied by the shop, was in a bit of a sorry state. Took a bit of work to make it as respectable as possible.

I had one young chap helping me.
So a very rough idea on what to charge for myself and my assistant?

TIA
Rog


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## Lazurus (29 Oct 2020)

£15 per hour is my rate


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## RGIvy (29 Oct 2020)

Lazurus said:


> £15 per hour is my rate


Do you ever use an assistant?


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## Lazurus (29 Oct 2020)

No I have never had the need to, yet!


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## Dee J (29 Oct 2020)

Depends where you are and what your overheads are like, but that's £100 easily.


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## doctor Bob (29 Oct 2020)

Is that 18mm board on pine legs? are there chunks out of the end.
Cost is horses for courses. Depends on confidence and speed and equipment levels.


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## thetyreman (29 Oct 2020)

I noticed the chips as well @doctor Bob, I wouldn't be happy with that as a customer....

I think you should work it out by looking at material costs + labour, that could be an hourly or day rate, completely up to you what you charge but don't starve yourself or sell yourself short.


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## thetyreman (29 Oct 2020)




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## owen (29 Oct 2020)

£100-£120 would be fair I guess


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## pcb1962 (29 Oct 2020)

thetyreman said:


> I noticed the chips as well @doctor Bob, I wouldn't be happy with that as a customer....


OP said "The melamine board, supplied by the shop, was in a bit of a sorry state."


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## Doug71 (29 Oct 2020)

pcb1962 said:


> OP said "The melamine board, supplied by the shop, was in a bit of a sorry state."



It looks like if it was cut 10mm shorter the chips would be gone.


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## johnny (30 Oct 2020)

it depends on if you are trying to make a living with this work and it is your primary income source or whether it is just a supplementary income and you have another job for primary income.

If it is for some extra money then as Lazurus says £15.00 an hour plus expenses would seem a reasonable rate unless you are based in London .

If your assistant was essential to the job and you had agreed to pay them then you would have to pay them something around the minimum hourly rate at least I should think. If they were there to give moral support and fetch a tool or hold something occasionally then you can hardly charge the customer 4x hours labour for that really. Maybe bung them £25.00 for the help.

You should have worked this out before starting the job so the customer has no nasty surprises. You can hardly charge the rate of a professional carpenter or kitchen fitter if you do not have business overheads or the customer was expecting a cut-rate job.

Basically you need to work out how you intend to charge for your work. You are very unlikely to be able to charge for time spent chatting about the work with the customer before during or after the job but it is something that needs to be factored in somewhere as it is a cost to you.

You'll need to factor in expenses like sick pay, holiday pay, liability insurance , book keeper ,tools, transport costs running a car/van tax insurance repairs and spares etc for a year . Add a small contingency fund for emergency expenditure like car repairs or special tool purchases.

Calculate how much income you need to live on for the next year ie mortgage /rent bills food cloathes 3x weeks holiday etc and finally add whatever profit you think appropriate for your business .

Then devide those costs by 365 days to arrive at a daily rate for your work . devide by 2x for half days work and by 6x for an hourly rate etc.

Now you know how much you need to charge for an hour half a day a whole day or a weeks work for your overheads income and profit.

There are plenty of online resources that will help you calculate all this by filling in simple forms that will give you all the charges that will suit your income needs.








Here's How Much To Charge For Your Services


Wondering how much to charge a client? In this post i'll show you four different ways on how to price your services, including a free calculator tool!




mikewalterz.com


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## Felix (30 Oct 2020)

Personally, I think if you're charging £15 per hour as a self-employed individual then you are working for less than minimum wage - after you have factored in your costs of running a business - even an odd-jobber is going to incur general costs such as fuel, wear and tear on tools etc. I would say you should be charging a minimum of £25 per hour.

Unfortunately, in this country, there are people who offer their services for less than the 'going rate' which does not help any bona-fide tradesman at all - you can wake up tomorrow and decide you're going to be a plumber, carpenter, electrician and go out and tout for work in peoples' houses. Sadly, there are plenty of property owners out there who will pay 'tradesmen' to carry out work on the cheap whether that 'tradesman' has any relevant qualifications or not. In Austria for example (personal experience) all tradesmen have to be certificated in order to carry out their work - their rates are significantly higher over there (about 40 - 50 Euros an hour), but you get proper accredited tradesmen - not just someone turning up with a shiny new bag full of Makita tools.

I should add that I'm sure that a similar situation with regards to non-accredited tradesmen exists in Austria (and many other countries), but it seems much less of a problem there than it does here.


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## Tris (30 Oct 2020)

It's more like 240 days unless you are doing 7 days a week


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## Felix (30 Oct 2020)

Tris said:


> It's more like 240 days unless you are doing 7 days a week


Unfortunately you don't stop paying insurances, electricity, gas, water and any other 'standing costs' over a week-end


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## Tris (30 Oct 2020)

Fair point, I read it as chargeable days


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## Tris (30 Oct 2020)

I think that's what Johnny was referring to


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## HOJ (30 Oct 2020)

I cant offer advice on a public forum as to how much you should charge for what you have done, the cost should have been established with the client before you started, I doubt if any shop owner has much in the way of disposable income.

Not sure it justified 2 people to make either, and the finish looks amateur, the first thing any one will see is the ragged edge of the top, not good for your reputation if you hope to do more work locally.


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## Cooper (30 Oct 2020)

A very long time ago I was approached by a friend of a friend who was setting up as a butcher to paint his signs. I had never done any painting for money and had no idea what I should ask. I decided that the friendliest way to proceed was to charge them in meat. I can't remember what the rate was but the whole job kept me in meat for over 6 months and I developed a taste for steak and fore rib. After that I knew much better how much work was involved and how long it would take and was able to make a realistic judgement what to charge other people in cash. As it was cash in hand and I also had a proper job I was always good value. 
I think what you ask for depends on what you client expected, this time. In future will will have a much better idea of how much effort will be involved.


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## RGIvy (30 Oct 2020)

thetyreman said:


> I noticed the chips as well @doctor Bob, I wouldn't be happy with that as a customer....
> 
> I think you should work it out by looking at material costs + labour, that could be an hourly or day rate, completely up to you what you charge but don't starve yourself or sell yourself short.


The board we were given was pretty ragged and we managed to get rid of most of the chips, the store owner didn't want any more cleaning up to be done so we left them.


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## Linwoodjoinery (30 Oct 2020)

Without over complicating it decide how much you want per day or per week and go from there. Obviously you have to be realistic but also make money out of if.


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## AJB Temple (30 Oct 2020)

RGIvy said:


> The board we were given was pretty ragged and we managed to get rid of most of the chips, the store owner didn't want any more cleaning up to be done so we left them.


Sadly that gives you a clue about the attitude of the customer to price. 

I don't know how difficult the frame was to make (looks like rather thin softwood legs) but working on my own I would expect to do that job in two hours maximum. 

Your lessons are:
agree price before you start and agree when you will be paid before you do anything
never work with shoddy materials as afterwards you will get the blame
invoice immediately and get paid without delay

I would bill £200 given what you have said.


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## rafezetter (30 Oct 2020)

We need a sticky for this question it comes up so often.

That vid on pricing is also very good and helped me view my pricing better.


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## deema (30 Oct 2020)

Starting out is a learning curve, everyone makes mistakes and learns from them. So, if you intend to so this full time / make a living from it find out what the going rate is in your area. Ask around friends to find out what they have been charged and see what it is they have had done / time it took. Since this is your first paid job, I’d consider it like the first day in school, as long as you dont lose money everything else is a bonus. I’ve always found the honest approach pays dividends. In your shoes, I would talk openly with the customer, say, look I’m not sure what to charge, it’s taken me 4 hours with my side kick, let’s agree a price we can all walk away happy with. You might not get what you think you deserve, but you will have a reference, and also someone who might point new customers your way especially if it’s a busy shop. You certainly dont want them giving disparaging comments about you!


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## RGIvy (30 Oct 2020)

deema said:


> I’ve always found the honest approach pays dividends. In your shoes, I would talk openly with the customer, say, look I’m not sure what to charge, it’s taken me 4 hours with my side kick, let’s agree a price we can all walk away happy with.


That's exactly what I did. A family member works there anyway, and she says they're very happy with the work.
I'm going to suggest £100 of which I'll give £25 to my assistant. Not much money left at the end of the day but it's just a hobby.


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## doctor Bob (30 Oct 2020)

RGIvy said:


> Not much money left at the end of the day but it's just a hobby.



Not really is it  it's a paying job.
The issue with "it's just a hobby" is, what if you had hit a cable, water pipe, etc. who claims for the potential liability. 
I've had my guys fit many 100's of kitchens, in that time I have had 2 claims, not many, these are skilled guys but accidents happen, and probability says it could happen on first fit or 100th fit.


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## Doug71 (30 Oct 2020)

I would be careful, as said if you are getting paid it's not just a hobby and if you are paying people to help you are an employer. 

I would be very careful doing any paid work especially in places used by the public if you don't have all the necessary insurances in place.

I think you have done well out of it as for example a professional who might charge £30 p/h probably would not be left with as much profit as you have made once he takes out what it costs to run a business.


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## Mike Jordan (30 Oct 2020)

I second Doug21s remarks about public liability insurance. I have known people who have worked for years without it but it's not a sensible move. You could lose literally everything.


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## johnnyb (31 Oct 2020)

I've known skilled trades not be able to say to a customer how much up front due to embarrassment! they spend there life working for £120 a day (long days as well) 
experience makes you ruthless tbh.(not dishonest) I charge as much as I can. who doesn't? I always try and charge an amount per job.i always agree the cost of extras.as that can sink a job into unprofitability. it means some jobs pay much better than others. I always make a margin on materials.minimum 20%.
I work in an area where 1/4 of the trades arent legit. they are that large hidden sector that work and claim. they rent units and do biggish jobs. how can anyone compete? 
I disagree with using a robotic method of charging as it implies a simple market.


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## sometimewoodworker (31 Oct 2020)

Lazurus said:


> £15 per hour is my rate


If self employed it should be at least 3 X that.


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## Dibs-h (31 Oct 2020)

johnnyb said:


> I work in an area where 1/4 of the trades arent legit. they are that large hidden sector that work and claim



It's probably a little bigger where I live and folk's (customers) attitudes always make me laugh.

Not woodworking related - more renovation\refurb related - but 2 chaps I know had a fair bit of work done recently:

- a neighbor had a new bathroom done. A few months down the line, the adjoining bedroom (other side of the tap\shower end of the bath) had damp\wet patches on the wall. He mentioned it to me: I so had to resist the urge to say "you (usually) get what you pay for", in the interests of good neighborly relations. LOL

- another chap had a business premises refurbed. The large'ish reception area had been tiled. Uneven grout lines and a number of (600x600) tiles had cracked. Door frames done poorly and half the (new) doors wouldn't close at all. TV brackets fixed to the wall\ceiling where there is a large amount of movement.

I just resisted the urge to laugh and didn't say much.

They're probably both annoying (cheapskate) customers - for tradesmen - and I think Karma bit them in the backside.


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## owen (31 Oct 2020)

sometimewoodworker said:


> If self employed it should be at least 3 X that.



Explain? Based on the hours I work that's over 100k a year


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## Mike Jordan (31 Oct 2020)

A number of years back I visited a terrible kitchen extension. When asked the owner said he was at a loss to explain it, the chap who built it had worked for years at B and Q !!


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## Hornbeam (31 Oct 2020)

RGIvy said:


> he board we were given was pretty ragged and we managed to get rid of most of the chips, the store owner didn't want any more cleaning up to be done so we left them.


The problem is that your work is the best advert for you. A potential future client seeing that doesnt know whether that is your standard. I think you have to be happy with the work yourself. It would only have taken 10 minutes to trim it down to size and finish properly.
Ian


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## sometimewoodworker (31 Oct 2020)

owen said:


> Explain? Based on the hours I work that's over 100k a year


At that income you will only be making a bit over minimum wage you should be earning over £40,000~60,000 before income tax and after all business expires depreciation etc have been taken into account, and that is not on a 60 hours week

If you aren’t earning that you are just starting your working life or not charging a fair price so will be going out of business or having a breakdown soon.

Gross turnover is a long way from the net income you can take from a business.

It is vastly different from a take home wage.


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## artie (31 Oct 2020)

Hornbeam said:


> The problem is that your work is the best advert for you.


A mate asked me to do a small job for him a few years ago and brought me some sheathing ply to use.

I only agreed to do it when he promised to say he did it himself.


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## pcb1962 (31 Oct 2020)

owen said:


> Explain? Based on the hours I work that's over 100k a year


All explained here:


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## TheTiddles (31 Oct 2020)

owen said:


> Explain? Based on the hours I work that's over 100k a year


You work on average over 120-hours a week and never take holidays? I’d make your money quickly, you’ll be dead soon!

Aidan


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## artie (31 Oct 2020)

42 hours per week at £45 per hour and no holidays is purty durn close to 100 grand gross


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## LBCarpentry (31 Oct 2020)

I’d charge £2500 + Vat 

£5k a day.

so 4 hours is half

“Huh? Well no one asked....”


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## Nigel Burden (31 Oct 2020)

Not woodworking related, but I am a retired driving instructor, and the issue of pricing comes up quite frequently amongst ADIs (DVSA Approved Driving Instructors). A realistic hourly rate would be in the region of £40 per hour. Most ADIs are charging around £25 per hour in this area. It wasn't helped by one charging £16 per hour, that was three years ago. Bear in mind that to charge for driving tuition you have to by law, have taken and passed the DVSAs three exams. They are, a hundred question theory test, a pass was 85%, a driving test, and then the killer, a test of instructional ability. Most could pass the first two without too much problem, but the last was the one most failed on. Three fails at any one of these and you had to go back and retake all again. All this, and yet this guy was charging £16 per hour. This meant that even the top grade instructors were struggling to charge anything more than £25 per hour.

Nigel.


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## AJB Temple (31 Oct 2020)

Moved


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## owen (31 Oct 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> You work on average over 120-hours a week and never take holidays? I’d make your money quickly, you’ll be dead soon!
> 
> Aidan



Where does 120 hours a week come from? I work between 45-50 hours every week. I am young ish, (31) and I enjoy working so why not? I understand overheads etc, but what overheads would someone have who's going to just bash a melamine topped table together in a garage that makes it acceptable to charge £45 an hour?


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## TheTiddles (31 Oct 2020)

owen said:


> Where does 120 hours a week come from? I work between 45-50 hours every week. I am young ish, (31) and I enjoy working so why not? I understand overheads etc, but what overheads would someone have who's going to just bash a melamine topped table together in a garage that makes it acceptable to charge £45 an hour?


100,000/15=6,666/52=128


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## owen (31 Oct 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> 100,000/15=6,666/52=128



Sorry, I meant if I earnt £45 an hour as suggested by someone else. 
100000/45=2222/52=42.7


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## Bristol_Rob (31 Oct 2020)

£100 Min


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## TheTiddles (31 Oct 2020)

owen said:


> Sorry, I meant if I earnt £45 an hour as suggested by someone else.
> 100000/45=2222/52=42.7


Oh I see. But earning £45 and charging £45 per hour are very different things too
Aidan


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## Deadeye (31 Oct 2020)

£300
Half day apprentice; half day qualified (2x)

But the chips are a shocker.


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## MikeJhn (1 Nov 2020)

I'd be embarrassed to charge anything for that top, put it down to good will and hope to get more work from them later where you can show how good you are.

And I would have at the very least got hold of some White Enamel paint and touched up the chips.


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## Sad Pangolin (1 Nov 2020)

owen said:


> Explain? Based on the hours I work that's over 100k a year



Consider watching on Youtube on the Essential Craftsman channel "five mistakes most contractors make". One of the things he goes into is pricing: If you get all the bids you quote on, you're asking too little.

Simple figures: if you work 2000 (paid) hours a year at £15/h you make 30K gross. Now if you work 1500 (paid) hours a year at £45/h you've lost some horrible jobs for cheapskate nitwits, but you have a better quality of life (a quarter less work = 10x more free time as there's only 24h/day and your overheads of sleeping/washing/cleaning/eating stay the same) plus 67.5K. 

With the better money you get better tools (e.g. a spare/ fewer breakdowns = more productive; and a Feyn vibrates so much less than a cheapo multitool which is less wear on your tendons = less RSI = longer life in better shape and less noise = less hearing loss = happier life as people around you don't think you're ignoring them on purpose when you didn't hear). With better tools comes better work, as you're not eking out the limits of the tool/ stretching the possible, and/or you're fresher (arms less numb from vibrations, etc).

If links allowed to newbies:  --- the man is no oracle but very thoughtful and obviously skilled over a wide set of things (especially, he knows what he doesn't know). Edit:


MikeJhn said:


> put it down to good will and hope to get more work from them later


 He also warns very convincingly against this, unless it's really meant as a charity. 

In the services world (hotels/B&Bs, restaurants, and especially photographers) and fashion (crafts, jewelry, clothes) the whole "influencers" world has thoroughly soured this: Gimme your stuff free and I'll praise it to my (500 or 5million) followers --- strong backlash against this developing as very few see this "exposure" turn into any kind of sales.


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## thetyreman (2 Nov 2020)

he's talking about carpentry work though, and it's in the USA not UK, I've seen some of his vids and he knows his stuff, our economy and ways of working are different, including what we can charge per hour.


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## TRITON (6 Nov 2020)

Last shop was in, which was about 12 years ago, the boss was charging customers £250/day for each of us on site. Working as cabintmakers.

But what to ask is always the question, and theres never really an answer to that.
eg. A sideboard in exotics, details, sturdy and reliable will cost anywhere from £3500, to £17,000 OR MOREdependenmt on where the maker is. I've sold an oak cabinet in Scotland for £2200 and during a London show the same thing we sold for £5800

I sometimes wonder if its just down to how brass your neck is


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