# criminal responsiblity



## sliver (21 Oct 2006)

Hi gang,
I know I've just posted a lighthearted thread on 'senior moments' (Is it me?). this one is more serious, bearing in mind what happened to Dave with his workshop break in & what the disgusting PIGS did. My quetion is.....What laws would you make/change to bring these criminals into line? I personally would make then responsible for their own actions, i.e, They enter your property without permission, they live with whatever befalls them whilst they are there......ESPECIALLY if they are there to 'borrow' your property....so to speak.

Plus, people who re-offend time & again, i.e. 'career criminals' would NOT get legal aid after, say, 3 times, tough, you're on your own sunshine so get your lawyer head on....or PAY for one. may not be so keen to go to court then eh?? Or jail, I'd not make them so comfy.. don't want to be uncomfortable in life do we?

I know we are not meant to get too political & I am sorry if I overstep the mark here. My idea is that people who can make a difference may use this & other sites to measure public opinion as they may be more likely to give true feelings away in a forum like this than in some high street survey. SOOOOOOO! feel like changing the world? LET'S GO PEOPLE!!!!

Yours hopefully, Sliver.


----------



## woodbloke (22 Oct 2006)

Silver wrote:


> people who re-offend time & again


Something here to be said for the system in the US of A where in some states, if you offend more than three times for _any_ crime (I think) they bang you up and throw away the key, can't somehow see that happening in the UK tho' ....shame - Rob


----------



## mr (22 Oct 2006)

I seem to recall the Americans having ditched that "three strikes" ssytem on the basis that it doesnt actually work as prevention or punishment.
Mike


----------



## Roger (22 Oct 2006)

It's a per State law Mike and so far, although amendments have been introduced in some, to allow treatment rather than the slammer for relatively minor offences, it's still going strong!

Mind you, the Bureau of Prisons is a massive organization, building prisons at the drop of a hat!


----------



## mr (22 Oct 2006)

Aye I knew it was some states only but I thought they had all dumped it or ammended it as you say. They do seem to have a "harsher" sentencing policy on the whole than many other places (being one of the few countries that executes minors for example) but it doesnt seem to do them much good on the surface of things. 
Mike


----------



## Roger (22 Oct 2006)

They haven't done that for a very long time. Although in theory the remaining few States 'can' impose the death penalty; in practice it isn't done and the Supreme Court is revisiting the whole issue.


----------



## Roger (22 Oct 2006)

Mind you - I do agree it doesn't seem to get them very far!


----------



## Waka (22 Oct 2006)

Life should mean life.
10 years should mean 10 years with nothing off for good behavior. 
Make the prisons prison and not holiday camps.
Prisoners should forfeit all human rights

I could go on and on


----------



## Guy (22 Oct 2006)

Prisoners here get the luxury treatment, DVD players TV and even the internet access in there cells. One prisoner to each cell. Thats not punishement in some cases they are better off than you and me


----------



## CHJ (22 Oct 2006)

Waka":2qovrky2 said:


> ...snip..
> Prisoners should forfeit all human rights,



I concur, humane yes, just; most have not given their victims human rights any consideration.

You should have the protection of the law and all benefits needed to get you on your feet. Break the law, or abuse those benefits then that's it, your on your own or out.

"If you cannot live by common decency rules then I do not see why I should keep turning the other cheek to accommodate you."


----------



## woodbloke (22 Oct 2006)

I heard on the wireless (R2 I think, maybe on J Vine) that it costs more per anum to keep a prisoner at HM pleasure than it does to send someone to Eton :shock: . Has anyone else heard of this and if it _is_ true then it seems to me that the system is seriously skewed - Rob


----------



## Paul Chapman (22 Oct 2006)

woodbloke":bud6o89q said:


> I heard on the wireless (R2 I think, maybe on J Vine) that it costs more per anum to keep a prisoner at HM pleasure than it does to send someone to Eton :shock:



I think the current figure is about £40,000 per year :shock: :shock: 

Paul


----------



## PowerTool (22 Oct 2006)

Oh yes,keeping someone in the lap of luxury at Her Majesty's Pleasure is expensive :shock: 
Believe it is even more expensive for someome like Ian Huntley,kept in solitary for his own safety.

The whole British justice system could do with a bit of a revamp,I think (hopefully,including a referendum on major issues)

Andrew


----------



## CHJ (22 Oct 2006)

PowerTool":53oc9osr said:


> ...snip...,kept in solitary for his own safety.
> Andrew



Why? if the residents have their own code of decency then those choosing to opt into the lifestyle should live with it. albeit for a short period.

I think there are to many in our society more deserving of the time and expenditure. 

I believe there is no segregation in many USA states, the obvious results normally ensue.


----------



## Roger (22 Oct 2006)

Yup - General Population is the rule in a lot of States. Quite a high 'drop out' rate!


----------



## ByronBlack (23 Oct 2006)

One idea that i've had since I was a young boy and something I've never understoon why it hasn't been brought in yet, and that is;

Make the criminals pay for their own sentence. This is simply done by either seizing their assets or any profit they have made from their crimes, AND when they come out levy an extra 10% on their income tax until they have paid back their 'debt' to society - they would be monitored to make sure they contribute, and they'll also waver their rights to claim from the benfit system.

If they refuse to work and contribute, they'll be given mandatory work in factories or other jobs that need filling. This is also my view on the scum they draw from the dole as soon as they leave school and have no intentions of working but thats going a different route.

We should also export some of our prisoners to foreigh run prisons. For instance, we could pay the russians to run a prison for us in the middle of Siberia, it probably would be cheaper and there would be not much chance of escape!


----------



## Vormulac (23 Oct 2006)

This is one of those topics that tends to make me very unpopular in this politically correct society in which we live, my standpoint on law and order is somewhat draconian. 
I believe criminals surrender their human rights the moment they decide to commit a crime, you can't deliberately act against society and still expect that society to protect you.
Corporal punishment is ok by me, I wonder how many little scrotes would throw bricks off motorway bridges or push over old ladies and swipe their handbags if they knew there was 20 lashes in public waiting for them. Try getting a job working with children with 'Rapist' branded across your forehead.
I wonder how many burglars would take a handgun or a knife with them if the death penalty was still in place for murder? It makes no difference to criminals these days if they kill an innocent in the pursuit of their criminal activities, what does it add to their sentance if they get caught? 5 years? Which amounts to about 18 months extra time served - that's no deterrant.
And foreign prisoners - why?? If they commit a violent crime then punish them accordingly and send them home. "But I come from a violent country where I face persecution if I ever return" - tough, you should have thought of that before you commited a crime.

I like Byron's idea of perhaps renting a Siberian gulag for somewhere to put society's real dregs. 'No locks here, it's 500 miles on foot to the nearest road and it's -40 degrees outside, go for it.'

I'm sure there will be people vowing never to reply to any of my threads ever again or preparing all manner of inventive liberal insults to throw at me now, but crime is wrong and there should be no hesitation from the powers that be in stamping it out, as hard as possible.

Vormulac.

...aaaand relax...


----------



## sliver (23 Oct 2006)

Oooooooooooooh, I opened up a hornets nest here didn't I? Vormulac, you're o.k. in my book mate. I say that because I don't remember violent crime being as prolific when I was a boy. I am about the same age as some of Brady & Hindley's victims WOULD have been if they had been allowed to live a natural life. The disgust that the case generated during my young life I, think, set my stance on ths issue of crime & punishment. Now it seems that you can't see a news report or pick up a newspaper without some one has killed someone else for the price of a bag of toffees, sometimes litterally that much. All the P.C. plonkers who bang on about not smacking kids, (I do not advocate BEATING, I mean smacking) make me see red. They should come to my area & see how the kids use the 'You can't touch me or I'll get you done' line with a smirk on their faces & then proceed to do exactly as they want ,good or bad, whether we like it or not. Respect needs to be taught, my sister-in-law is a teacher & her once beloved proffession is now just one long nightmare of badly behaved kids.

Thank you all so much for your replies & for taking the time to write them. It makes me feel less alone in my thinking knowing that you all think like me on this matter.
ATB, Sliver.


----------



## Vormulac (23 Oct 2006)

That's a relief, I was packing my bags ready to be sent to Coventry for a moment there.  

You're quite right, Sliver, it doesn't matter what the PC crowd say, the world is not as safe, nor as friendly a place as it used to be, respect and responsibilty has been removed from all young people and we are all poorer because of it.

Vormulac.


----------



## Colin C (23 Oct 2006)

Hi all,

This is a subject that me and some of my friends have been talking about all at the moment, and to see what some of the young kids get up to now :shock: .

When I was growing up ( not as long ago as some :wink: ), in my area you had respect for you people around you or some one would let you know about it very quickly.

Me and a friend have seen a school kid ( still in his school uniform ), walk up to a workmans coat and put his hand in one of the pockets looking for some thing to nick ( this was on a busy main street ).

We look at each other in disbelef and ask his what he was doing but not so nicely :evil: , he looked at us with shock as he was not thinking any one would say anything, as you can guess he shot off very quickly.

I think this is also part of the problem is that people will walk pass when some thing is going wrong, which did not happen as when I was younger.

I also think that some parents have a long way to go to be good parents and I for one smack my kids when I think it is right, which is not much.

I have had to stop myself from giving some of the kids out on the street a clip a round the ear, the problem that I see is that they want to be treaded like adults but if and when they talk or act like men, and you tread them like adults ( say give one or two of them a slap ).

This is when they remember how old they are and remember the law :evil: 

I say stick them in the army for three years and if they start acting like they do, the guys or girls that are in with them will sort it :wink:


----------



## Waka (23 Oct 2006)

Volumac":1ubfz9yk said:


> I'm sure there will be people vowing never to reply to any of my threads ever again or preparing all manner of inventive liberal insults to throw at me now, but crime is wrong and there should be no hesitation from the powers that be in stamping it out, as hard as possible.



Not me; I'm with you all the way


----------



## NickWelford (23 Oct 2006)

I have just returned from the USa and was interested to hear on the radio whilst there that the perpetrator of a rather nasty rape was sentenced to 120 years without parole. 
I'm aware also that the prisons are not very nice places to be. You have to earn any privileges also.
There seems to be no element of punishment left in the British justice system


----------



## RogerS (23 Oct 2006)

Colin C":2j6860i2 said:


> When I was growing up ( not as long ago as some :wink: ), in my area you had respect for you people around you or some one would let you know about it very quickly.
> 
> Me and a friend have seen a school kid ( still in his school uniform ), walk up to a workmans coat and put his hand in one of the pockets looking for some thing to nick ( this was on a busy main street ).
> 
> We look at each other in disbelef and ask his what he was doing but not so nicely :evil: , he looked at us with shock as he was not thinking any one would say anything, as you can guess he shot off very quickly.



10 out of 10 for that, Colin, but many would not have bothered which brings me to my view that is actually all of us ie society that is as much to blame as useless parents and the ideologically-challenged PC crowd. We've abrogated our responsibility....like you, when I was younger and stepped out of line, an adult would pull me up short. These days the majority walk on by...with the rather lame excuse 'oh he might be carrying a knife' or 'he/she will only swear at me'. 

My other suggestion is that the Government should provide drugs free...yes..free. When you consider the harm, cost to society, violence, petty crime, robberies and muggings that are carried out by junkies seeking their latest fix, it seems common sense to me. Then channel most of the money saved in less time spent by the police, emergency services dealing with injuries, courts (when, if ever, they get caught), insurance claims as a result of the drug related crimes, channel this money towards rehabilitation then we might get somewhere.

The only nagging doubt I have in my mind about the whole "hang 'em high" ethos (and my natural reaction is this way inclined) was generated listening to Sundays' Desert Island Discs where the interviewee was detailing some quite harrowing tales of kids that had turned to crime but, when you dug a little deeper, had been dumped on the streets by uncaring parents and/or subject to sexual abuse from an early (5 years) age. Kind of hard to not empathise a little with their attitude....but then again, there are all those ugly little evil scrotes who are simply 100% evil.

Chain them to their parents?


----------



## StevieB (23 Oct 2006)

I'm with most of you here, but cannot agree with the 'provide drugs free to stop other crime' argument. It just wouldnt work in practice IMHO. If alcohol was invented today it would be catagorised as a class A drug and banned. It does far more damage in terms of crime, treating associated health problems and anti social behaviour than all other 'hard' drugs combined. Make hard drugs free and this will change.

Drugs kill, end of story. Providing them free alleviates the criminal nature of the persuit and detracts from the serious medical and social consequences of drug use. The cost to the NHS would far outweigh that saved in policing drug crime. Ask yourself the question - would you feel safe walking home at night knowing that every third person was on free hard drugs? What about letting your wife / daughter / significant other make that journey? I know I wouldnt. What stops alot of people experimenting is the lack of freely available supply and the stigma of it. Take that away and useage will go up massively. Drug addiction, like alcohol addiction takes different people different ways - they would not all suddenly become honest quiet law abiding citizens just because their next dose was free from the chemist. Predudiced, moi? Possibly, but on the basis of previous experience (not mine but a close friend).

Good idea about using prison ships in the news, I vote for the Marie Celeste.... :lol:


----------



## Colin C (23 Oct 2006)

To add to what Roger has said.

The one other thing that kept me in check was that if I behaved badly away from home, was that my behaver (sp ?) would not get home before me :shock: ( not some thing that I would have ever wanted ).

I use to be smacked with a leather belt ( my mother is now 80 and from Jamacia ), this is not some thing that I would do but people always say how well behaved my children are ( 8 and 6).
On whole they no when to stop


----------



## wrightclan (23 Oct 2006)

ByronBlack":1p6zupq7 said:


> One idea that i've had since I was a young boy and something I've never understoon why it hasn't been brought in yet, and that is;
> 
> Make the criminals pay for their own sentence. This is simply done by either seizing their assets or any profit they have made from their crimes, AND when they come out levy an extra 10% on their income tax until they have paid back their 'debt' to society - they would be monitored to make sure they contribute, and they'll also waver their rights to claim from the benfit system.
> 
> ...



Byron,

I agree wholeheartedly--for violent criminals and persistent offenders; great ideas. For non-violent criminals; I would say skip the whole prison thing altogether. Send them directly to work (not as a silly community service sentence.) Instead send them to some form of hard work, until they pay off their debt to the _victim_.

Someone said punishment is missing from the justice system. _Restitution_ is another thing missing. If you get criminals early in their "career," restitution would go a long way towards true rehabilitation.

Brad


----------



## RogerS (23 Oct 2006)

Fair point, StevieB, but the assumption that you are making is that making drugs free will increase their use. I don't subscribe to that view but each to their own  

I agree with you re alcohol abuse but the binge-drinking lager lout result is also the result of society not managing this better. Look at the continent where excessive alcohol consumption is not the norm. They still have a drugs problem.


----------



## DomValente (23 Oct 2006)

How about prison camps on deserted Scottish islands? No central heating.

It is my belief that the root of many of the problems today is the need or desire of money,please note use of the word need, my wife teaches at a well known public school and she can pick out the boys whose mothers go to work simply by their behavior, this is perforce a generalisation, but it gives a very good idea of why so many kids run wild and eventually turn to crime to feed a drug habit and so on.


I also feel that our police force is drowning in bureaucratic nonsense and not being allowed to do their job. The biggest problem there is that eventually the young coppers now joining wil believe that this is the right way to do things,it isn't.

Spare the rod spoil the child ,or in todays parlance,if you don't slap the little sod he'll end up slapping you


----------



## Anonymous (23 Oct 2006)

Very thought provoking responses to what seems an overwhelming modern problem.
I take a "bigoted" "old fashioned" "narrow minded" view of these issues. :shock: :shock: :shock: 
I dont hold with all this liberal humanistic "theyre not to blame, its their circumstances and environment, their social exclusion, their limited social opportunities, victims of racial/economic discrimination etc" blah blah blah :roll: 
What ever happened to the foundational concept of right and wrong as an objective absolute standard instead of the wishy washy whatever's right for you must be right :roll: :roll: breed of secular _relative_ morality?? I mean what about the folk who come from disadvantaged backgrounds and who have been successful?? Are they freaks or something?? They must be to a modern liberal.
When I was a kid (mid 60's) stealing was wrong, period, no matter what excuses or sugar coated package you tried to invent, it was still wrong. Now its "excusable", or not seen as a crime even, or as a perk of a job :roll:. folk now dont respect someone elses property or life even. They see something they dont have or are not prepared to work hard to get, and genuinely believe (encouraged by the marxist liberal mentality) that it should be theirs so they use a knife or gun to emphasise the point. These folk are responsible for their own actions, I dont care who it is, why blame their parent/s, teachers, slave traders, or whatever other scapegoat (favourite being white anglo saxon males) it just lets them carry on acting the role of hard done by victim instead of facing up to the reality that they are a criminal who has broken laws and needs to make amends. 
And Byron, they _did_ used to present prisoners with a bill when or if they were let out of gaol back in history around the reformation/civil war era?? Conditions werent what they are today, but they were still compelled to pay the gaoler for food etc :shock: :shock: What is most sickening is the prison reform trust types who seem more concerned abbout preserving human rights of prisoners and criminals at all costs even if it means law abiding folk losing portions of their human rights as a coseqeunce
:lol:


----------



## sliver (23 Oct 2006)

Yep, they do make all the excuses for these 'poor unfortunates' don't they? What do the poor unfortunates do? laugh at them & the rest of us. Did anyone hear on the news a couple of weeks ago that they're now thinking of raising the age of criminal responsibility to 14yrs. Can you believe these people? :shock: They won't stop meddling until society has broken down completely & they sat in the middle of the lawless mess wondering, a; What went wrong (you can guarantee it won't be their fault) & b; Why there aren't any police officers arount to arrest the hooligans. There was some silly person on the radio a while ago defending teenagers who were terrorising a housing estate night after night lighting fires, damaging property & generally causing mayhem. Bless him, he wanted us all to understand that these thugs had had it rough you see. What I would like to know is where he lives.....Some place nice & safe with gingerbread houses & candy floss trees I'm guessing. Stick him on that estate & see how long his reasoning lasts then. They'll set fire to his trouser leg while he's busy pontificating (sorry, dictionary for lunch)  about how he understands them AND their problems. No excuses for behaviour like that , whatever your life is like. Wrong is still wrong & should be addressed as such. If they get sent to prison & smash up the t.v. & toilets then I say leave it & let them live in it. They did it so they must want it like that, right? O.K. let the nice people go to bed now sliver me boy, & get off of the high horse. Thanks again all for your excellent responses.
cheers, sliver.


----------



## Colin C (23 Oct 2006)

HI Mr S,

I agree with some of what you have said but some of what you have said is seen through your white anglo saxon male male eyes.

Please dont get me wrong as I see some of the youths in my area that I could lock up for a long time this is of all colours (some use colour as a defence for what they have done wrong ).

Untill you see the other side as well ( what I have as well ) e,g being almost pushed over by a man about 25 and me being about 13-14 or having the KKK 
burning crosses 2-3 miles up the road from me ( this was in and around east London in about 82 ).

So please before you start the pointing the finger at some people, look a little closer at some of the facts or talk to some of the people that have had deal with some of the things you are talking about.

Now I am off my soap box and the rant is over :roll: :wink:


----------



## DomValente (24 Oct 2006)

That was precisely my point, it is because these people did not have someone at home to teach them right from wrong or,dare I say it, anyone at school to ingrain the Ten Commanments into their brains,no matter which religion you may follow they are pretty much the basis for a good life.
There are reasons not excuses for their evil behaviour and we as a generation need to find ways to fix it.

All of this said, not as a liberalist, I also agree that the penal system as well as the law is an ass and needs to be seriously reviewed.



Dom


----------



## woodbloke (24 Oct 2006)

Vormulac wrote:


> respect and responsibilty has been removed from all young people


Whilst I have much sympathy with many of the views held on this thread, quotes like this on an open internet forum are IMO misleading and damaging to say the least...._all_ young people? As an ex-teacher in a main stream comprehensive school, I can say with certainty that approx 10-15% of the children (thats what they are) caused 98% of the trouble and meant that teaching staff had to dedicate a huge amount of time sorting out their antisocial behavior. As a case in point the school I taught at in the west country was the one where a student was killed (by two others from the same school) by holding his head under water in the local river, so the authorities claim.
I did though notice, though a gradual change in the attitude for the worse in youngsters over the years whist I was teaching , though I would still argue that the _vast_ majority of young people cause no problems - Rob


----------



## CHJ (24 Oct 2006)

woodbloke":19oz1236 said:


> ...snip...I can say with certainty that approx 10-15% of the children (thats what they are) caused 98% of the trouble and meant that teaching staff had to dedicate a huge amount of time sorting out their antisocial behavior. ...snip...Rob



Isn't it the case with all "non conformists" be it road users, football hooligans, drunken idiots, poor performing work force, difficult neighbors etc.

I have always found that it is the 5-10 % that causes all the aggro' and mar the pleasure of life.

I do have problems with


woodbloke":19oz1236 said:


> children (thats what they are)


 when they are on or near the teenager border line and commit "Adult Crimes" such as Rape, Child abuse, Murder, or even transport theft and dangerous driving; why we still give them the anonymity of Children.


----------



## woodbloke (24 Oct 2006)

CJH wrote:


> when they are on or near the teenager border line and commit "Adult Crimes" such as Rape, Child abuse, Murder, or even transport theft and dangerous driving; why we still give them the anonymity of Children.


Agreed, _some_ of these children do go on to commit 'adult crime' as teenagers but I feel this is probably the far end of the spectrum _as a whole_. When I was training, I went round the Feltham institute for young offenders and that was probably one of the scariest days of my life, the people in there, although adolescent had committed ghastly crimes (arson murder etc) and the full penalty of the law was being brought to bear. However, many of the youngsters that I taught that were a _complete_ pain in the ar*e tuned out to be mature sensible adults having 'turned the corner' and would quite readily buy me a pint in the local - Rob


----------



## chiba (24 Oct 2006)

CHJ":1wnal8yb said:


> Isn't it the case with all "non conformists" be it road users, football hooligans, drunken idiots, poor performing work force, difficult neighbors etc.





Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)":1wnal8yb said:


> "Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist."



Please don't equate not conforming to what you define as the norm with being an ******* - they're very different.


----------



## CHJ (24 Oct 2006)

chiba":1mujcq7v said:


> Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)":1mujcq7v said:
> 
> 
> > "Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist."
> ...



Obviously Ralph Waldo Emerson did not have the young hooligans and criminally inclined included in his definition of "nonconformist" 
Lateral thinking, creative, progressive and a willingness not to follow the herd in mediocrity would be more likely I think.

I believe my use (misuse) of the expression was suitably qualified by the accompanying references and context of the paragraph.

Naming individuals or groups of individuals with derogatory names is a matter of personal opinion. Referring to them as not abiding by the expected behavior patterns of the society they reside in is a little less emotive I think.


----------



## Anonymous (24 Oct 2006)

Colin C":wkofp242 said:


> I agree with some of what you have said but some of what you have said is seen through your white anglo saxon male male eyes.


Now isnt that amazing, how else would I see ecxept with these white anglo saxon male eyes (yes you jumped to the right conclusion, I am a white male); I dont have much choice in the matter Col!! :lol: 
I eveidently touched a raw nerve with my comments, it wasnt my intention, but it happens sometimes when you express opinions in a free democracy, thats why the anti democratic liberal marxist politically corect lobby dont want debate or strong views _lest it offend anyone_ :roll: .
As you rightly say, some folk resort to blaming their skin color for their criminality and use it as a defence, that includes the tired "victims of colonial slavery" excuses. But its not just black criminals that try to make excuses is it (and dont get the idea I am equating national criminality with negro people as I am not). I mean look at the woman in court today she murderes her baby, sets fire to the house, then lies and makes out she was the victim of an assault :roll: :roll: The judge said she shouldnt go to jail "because _shes_ suffered enough already" Because she had post natal depression. So she isnt really responsible for her actions. 
I think Colin you make too many assumtions about me, and like I cant hold any views about race/racism etc as I'm old whitey. 
Around the time of the falklands war 1980/81 I lived in Brocklehurst street a stones throw from millwall football ground, and by my reckoning 3 or 400 yards from the house at new cross where the fire was. I know what its like to have a gang of 7 or 8 NF thugs at the front door (uninvited) threatening to drag me in the street and kick the s***e out of me because I told them to f*** off (meanwhile my liberal marxist flat mates were cowering in the back kitchen wringing their hands fat lot of help they were) Its not just ethnick minorities that the BNP (or NF as it was then) hate. And yes I have been the victim of crime in London both times as it happens black males, one threatened me with a hammer in Peckham high street I just said put that hammer away before you get into trouble, the other was 2 youth robbed me with a knife in Brixton :roll: Yes they might of had no stable family life, no discipline, no education, no sense of right and wrong all manner of excuses could me made to mitigate but they still done a crime and unless they or others like them, white red yellow or whatever start to act like men not namby pamby nancy boys whinging and making excuses (as aided and abetted by the loony left utopian liberal judges and lawyers), and face up to the responsibility and consequences of their actions then things will get worse not better :shock: . 
Cheers Jonathan


----------



## Vormulac (24 Oct 2006)

woodbloke":2fkv5bf2 said:


> Vormulac wrote:
> 
> 
> > respect and responsibilty has been removed from all young people
> ...


 
Golly, I didn't realise I was so influential, I'll use an encrypted channel next time! 

Sorry Rob, I'm not really taking the mickey, you're quite right in that the way I phrased that was a gross generalisation; in the 15 years or so since I left school I daresay I have encountered in some way, shape or form several thousand 'young people' and perhaps 2 or 3 have surprised me with their adherence to decent values and good manners, whereas the vast majority of the rest have behaved rudely/disrespectfully if not downright criminally. You're right, not *all*, but as near to all as makes very little difference. 

Obviously everyone's experiences will be different and yours are clearly different to mine, but I am not going to shy away from publishing my experiences on "an open forum" in case some people consider it to be damaging, that is the way political correctness has seized this country in a stranglehold, "I'm not going to say what I know in case someone disagrees and I offend them". 

Incidentally, my hat is off to you sir; I run training courses at work and it's bad enough with an audience of doctors and other professionals, the thought of doing the same for children leaves me cold! Teachers are valiant souls!  

Vormulac.


----------



## woodbloke (24 Oct 2006)

Vormulac wrote:


> I have encountered in some way, shape or form several thousand 'young people' and perhaps 2 or 3 have surprised me with their adherence to decent values and good manners, whereas the vast majority of the rest have behaved rudely/disrespectfully if not downright criminally. You're right, not *all*, but as near to all as makes very little difference.



This is where I find this idea to be way off track. For example, if you were to take a 'normal distribution' if such a thing is possible, (I'm no statistician) of youth, male and female of lets say 3,000 young people from across all walks of life, social class, intellect, parental background, education etc etc are you _seriously_ saying that you would find only 2 or 3 that exhibited the 'correct' behavioral pattern?
What you would expect to find in a normal distribution (graphically the shape of a bell) is that at the very ends of the curve people would be at extremes of behavior, typically the 'Brat Camp' kids at one end and the grossly introverted, painfully shy at the other. The vast majority, and this is my point, conform, more or less, depending on where they come on the graph, to the morals, ethics and laws of our society. If you have found as you say that only 2 or 3 are 'respectful' then it would seem to me that you have had mainly dealings with those sorts of characters that inhabit one end only of the graph.
This is quite a complex topic to get a handle on, but at the end of it all, IMO you _have_ to have some faith in the young people of today, 'cos without it, we're going nowhere - Rob


----------



## Vormulac (25 Oct 2006)

I am not a statistician either, I am simply relating my _experience_, not my opinion, not my interpretation of a bell graph or anything else, simply recounting my observations without political bias or any other form of agenda. If you do not believe people's experiences because they don't conform to a statistical model, that is your right.
I don't hang a round borstal either, these are observations of youngsters from all over the country, in the street, in shops, on buses, on trains and on the tube.
As I said before, everyone's experiences will be different, yours are clearly different to mine, fair enough, but it makes them no less real or valid.

Vormulac.


----------



## woodbloke (25 Oct 2006)

Fair enoughski - leave it there on this one - Rob


----------



## Vormulac (25 Oct 2006)

I agree, a fine discussion *doffs cap to woodbloke* 

Now then, back to talking about cutting up wood... 

Vormulac.


----------



## woodbloke (25 Oct 2006)

Agreed - back to woodie stuff - Rob


----------



## norman (25 Oct 2006)

Hi all
Very interesting thread.

So very glad to find that I am not on my own on this soap box, I was beginning to feel very alone up here.

Many thanks to you all.
Norman


----------



## sliver (25 Oct 2006)

Hi again all,
As Norman has just said, this thread has been very interesting. I see there was a discrepancy in what percentage of young people are good & bad. I personally think that most PEOPLE are good, young & old alike, but it's the ones who do bad that make the headlines as usual. Pete Docherty (babyshambles-Kate Moss) is a case in point does everything he shouldn't & gets attention. Same with Tony Carroll (lottery lout) causes all that aggro with his near-neighbours, goes to jail for drugs offences then on his release he gets t.v. offers to do his own show. 
Rewarded for doing wrong I think, with role models like these no wonder kids are breaking their necks to be bad. Does this say more about modern society as a whole today?? 'Must buy this magazine or that one to see what they're doing now' I know we don't want to see t.v. about normal everyday stuff cos that would be boring beyond belief. The trick is not to think all the bad stuff we see in film & t.v. these days can be copied in real life. I think maybe some folks need a reality check. Any of this make sense? 
Thank you all again for making this an excellent & thought provoking thread. Please feel free to comment further if you wish.

Cheers Sliver. :wink:


----------



## Vormulac (27 Oct 2006)

It's an interesting thought Sliver, but it has just occured to me from reading your post that I would rather watch the mundane on tv (say an American gent in a tartan shirt doing something ordinary like woodworking) than something extraordinary and epoch-making (like 15 Z-list celebs held hostage in a tv studio for a month being filmed non-stop pretending to be kittens or arguing about botox). :wink: 

But then maybe I'm just a bit odd...

V.


----------

