# Yay, someone is making a decent Bill Pentz cyclone build on youtube



## Ttrees (23 Jun 2022)

Not sure how many of you have seen or watch Jer Schmidt's youtube channel, I hadn't.
I reckon @baldkev and @Inspector will have already seen this

Looks a proper job, and interesting to see another take on the design,
as he mentioned an area of space doing nothing in Bill's drawings.

Great watch, and really looking forward to part two.


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## artie (23 Jun 2022)

The video seem to have gone awol.


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## MikeK (23 Jun 2022)

The video works for me.


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## sploo (23 Jun 2022)

Great build. I've wanted to make a Pentz cyclone for years, but never had a workspace with a high enough ceiling to make one feasible!


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## artie (23 Jun 2022)

It's working now.


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## Sideways (23 Jun 2022)

Excellent find. I like his 50mm belt linisher too


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## Inspector (23 Jun 2022)

I saw the video mentioned on the Aussie forum but haven't watched it yet. 

Sploo you can lean a Pentz cyclone over to 45º without affecting the separation performance. That will drop the height about 20" to where it might fit your shop. It takes up more wall space but you can always tuck other stuff under and over it. I first saw it mentioned in a Knots forum (now gone) in 2006. One of the guys was fitting it in the attic space. 

Pete


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## sploo (23 Jun 2022)

Inspector said:


> I saw the video mentioned on the Aussie forum but haven't watched it yet.
> 
> Sploo you can lean a Pentz cyclone over to 45º without affecting the separation performance. That will drop the height about 20" to where it might fit your shop. It takes up more wall space but you can always tuck other stuff under and over it. I first saw it mentioned in a Knots forum (now gone) in 2006. One of the guys was fitting it in the attic space.
> 
> Pete


That's an interesting idea I hadn't considered. Next problem is wall/floor space!

I'd kinda settled on just using the Festool CTL vacuum with a Oneida cyclone on top for the smaller tools, and dragging the larger stuff (e.g. table saw) outside


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## Ttrees (24 Jun 2022)

Thanks for fixing the link @MikeK
I thought @artie's AWOL comment was referring as to being "viral", apologies about that.

Great to see some of ye folk comment on this as I was hoping,
as Bill's website is a bit confusing to someone like myself.
I'm rather terrible at all the math and tend to glaze over some stuff.
I find learning is made easier with seeing the facts for certain applications explained, 
then I can seem to remember better as there's reasoning for knowing it.

Pleased to see there's discussion about this, I must go look, cheers!
What little information I _think_ I've remembered correctly is that Jer seems to be making 
quite a small diameter cyclone, and IIRC this is suited to a 5hp motor.

I was thinking of making do with a 3hp motor, possibly a de-rated 4hp motor via VFD,
and having say two very short runs on a semi mobile unit, somehow.
That's all gravy and haven't really looked/found more about something which might be anyway similar enough to suit my needs.
The thing is, these end details are the stuff you need to know before venturing into it in the first place, so I guess I am on my own there with my own oddball planed usage of the machine.

TBH I'm thinking a Gyro-air system might suit me better as a quiet hand tool woodworker
as noise control and adequate supply are lacking, whilst investment is not an option,
so am planning on using this as an air cleaner more so, than something to be working whilst using my machines... well for some sort of lengthy period until I can upgrade stuff and have efficient machining setup.

We've all seen plenty of folk making a second larger unit, and I wouldn't be put off by having to make a second one, might keep me eye open for a mig welder sometime, one could likely get a 
liddle machine used for little, so wouldn't be so miffed having to have reason to use it.

There is much to learn about this in-between situation which more than myself might be thinking of, should there be anyone setting up their temporary workshop on a shoestring.
Hopefully Jer's video gets plenty of attention this side of the drink, so we can have more relateable situations for the smaller rated breakers and cables on our shed walls,
or other advancement in noise reduction, should the CFM of the Giro be rather piddly compared.

Cant wait until part two, wondering if he made the impeller himself?
Keen to see what ye knowledgeable folk might suggest or anything really.
Cheers

Tom


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## heimlaga (27 Jun 2022)

I wish I had trought of the idea of the visible air ramp (helix shape) when I built mine. It was awfully difficult to weld in there but with his redesign I could have welded from the outside. 

I used 2mm plate for the rest and 8mm for the flanges and 1,5mm for the cone. Stick welded everything. Bought a suitable blower with a 5,5 kW 400 volt three phase motor from a local scrap merchant. The cyclone alone collects more of the fine dust than my old bag over bag collector did. Then comes the filter cabinet with 4 large cartridges.


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## Ttrees (27 Jun 2022)

Forgot to bring yourself up @heimlaga, really interesting to see your input,
on this.
Since you've decided to put yourself out there for a right plaguing 
I might as well ask if you bent that... what looks to be hefty gauge metal on the green giant yourself, made some sheet metal breaks or whatnot, or possibly sourced allready shaped sheet?
If it is thin gauge stuff, then interesting to know you achieved this with an ark welder.
Also good to know your thoughts on the design altercation, thanks for that.

I don't mind a bit of weight to a machine like this, presumably quieter?


Might be a fight, but wouldn't mind if I knew it would work well the first time

Trouble is, it's hard to get an idea of the size motor, impeller size and ultimately cyclone diameter which might not loose a considerable amount of CFM by not having the 5hp motor, which is likely a bit much for my needs being mainly a hand tooler guy.

I'd be interested in seeing what the difference in performance is between a 3hp and 4hp motor with suitably sized impeller/cone/ducting size, and whether much difference in noise aswell.
Hope this guy will get into this a bit, as I'm sure a lot of it is in Bill's website, but I find it all a bit technical.
No need reply on my rantings, as it's a bit much to reply to in this regard, seeing as this can be so specific.
I'm best shut my unkowledgable trap and hope some of ye folk wish to have a discussion about this, or whatever interesting path the thread might go down.

All the best
Tom


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## heimlaga (28 Jun 2022)

The metal fabrication workshop across the field rolled the cylindrical parts for me on their large machine. I could have bent them around some round object but this was easier. Either way it is important to have 10 cm extra lenght at either end because one cannot easily roll (or bend) a smooth curve all the way to the end of a piece of plate.
I cramped a two metre piece of thick walled 4 inch pipe to my rather solid metalwork bench with a spacer underneath at each end. Then i could use it as a makeshift brake moving the plate back and forth while bending it a little at a time. Here it was impractical to have extra lenght so I produced an even curve as best as I could beating it with a mallet over the pipe.
Once the flanges were in place everything became reasonably round though it didn't always start out that way.

The air ramp (helix) needs to have it's outer edge stretched a bit to lay flat and true (Bill Pentz claims this to be impossible without some speciality machines and suggests leaving a triangular hole instead). I just hammered the outer edge flat on the face of the anvil with a rather flat faced blacksmith's hammer. Compressing the thickness somewhat along the outer edge and making the edge stretch so the spiral became flat and true.

The transition from square to round at the air intake claimed to be so difficult to make was surprisingly easy. I carculated the flat shape and drew it on the 2mm plate and cut it out. Then I started the sharp bend in each corner with a hammer in my blacksmith's leg vice. Then I did the rest of the shaping with hammer over both the square and the round horn of my anvil.

Welding 2mm plate with 1,6mm rods in a stick welder is quite possible. Anything thinner becomes tricky. I used a 8x50mm or something copper bar scavenged from a big transformer as a backing when I welded the long seam on the cone. With that heat sink behind I could weld 1,5mm plate sucsessfully.
I made the flange a very tight fit onto the cone so that I had to drive it on tightly. With no gap in the seam I could weld with a very small pool angling the rod so as to make the cone act as a backer and heat sink.


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## Inspector (28 Jun 2022)

I think Bill designed his cyclone with the ramp in the walls rather than with a sloping top because the walls are integrated into the impeller housing, presumably to keep it short. Makes no difference when the impeller is an existing separate unit.

In Bill's site if the proper 3hp impeller information is input in the cyclone calculator/designer the resulting diameter is a couple inches larger that the one for a 5hp one, so a bigger cyclone. _If I remember correctly_ the smaller impeller isn't drawing the air through fast enough so it needs more swirl time for the dust to settle out. Every cyclone has drag just like ducting, elbows, hoses etc do. A 3hp impeller is the minimum needed to overcome the drag and still have enough flow to draw the required air from the end of the system in a 2 car garage sized shop. Bill's cyclone is quite efficient having about 2"h2o loss where some can have as much as 5"h2o losses which with a smaller impeller doesn't leave much to draw air and dust with.

I'm interested to see what the next video has in store. The only thing I and likely heimlaga too, would have been to try and flair the short round piece on an anvil to fit the bottom of the cone rather than weld the cone to the lid. With the lid welded to the cyclone it means either lifting the entire cyclone assembly to get the collection barrel out or lift the drum up to the lid. Little @$&*^%$ made me feel old being able to sit on the floor and contort into awkward positions to do the welding. I lost that ability before he was born. 

Pete


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## sploo (28 Jun 2022)

Inspector said:


> With the lid welded to the cyclone it means either lifting the entire cyclone assembly to get the collection barrel out or lift the drum up to the lid.


I've seen a few designs using a short length of flexible hose between the bottom of the cone and the drum lid; so the lid can be lifted off the drum and the drum slid out on wheels for emptying. Some other designs use a foot operated cam to lift the drum up to the lid, so at least you don't put your back out getting the drum on/off.


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## MikeK (28 Jun 2022)

sploo said:


> I've seen a few designs using a short length of flexible hose between the bottom of the cone and the drum lid; so the lid can be lifted off the drum and the drum slid out on wheels for emptying. Some other designs use a foot operated cam to lift the drum up to the lid, so at least you don't put your back out getting the drum on/off.



That's what I did with my system. I can hold the lid up with bungee cords while I slide the bin out from under it. My system needs only about two inches of space to clear the gasket around the lip of the bin.


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## Spectric (29 Jun 2022)

I think the job would have looked better had he done the welding with TIG!


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## Ttrees (29 Jun 2022)

Still appears a bit more skookum than thin sheet and rivets.
I don't think I should want to learn the results from TIG, as it seems things would never be the same again.
I suppose most of my welding looks hideous for anyone capable of TIG, so much so bordering on offensive looking.
Don't think I'd be able to afford all the kit, compared to cheap MIG 
These are a hundred in the shop, so don't know what the seller expected 
but just saying likely this machine can be bought for half that for one willing to wait.

That's if I cannot bend some heavier gauge metal to the shape, say up to 2mm.
I won't be making a youtube video, so don't mind the fight, and willing to make up some bodging tools for the job,
and also have a ride on lawnmower which needs a deck, so on the fence about possibly getting the machine below.


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## Inspector (29 Jun 2022)

I wouldn't get too fussed over the welds looking good. The important part is having good penetration. I've seen some beautiful TIG welds that didn't penetrate that were easily broken, like spouses, looks aren't everything. The reason against TIG is that you need both hands in there. One to hold the rod and the other to manipulate the torch. Great when you have access and it is a very versatile welding system.

As for thin sheet metal and rivets. Hundreds of Pentz Cyclones have been made with it and are functioning just as well years on as the day when they were fired up. It takes a lot of wood dust passing over the metal to wear a hole in it, far more than we will do in a lifetime. Maybe not as pretty or able to stop a broken moulder cutter hitting it but more than enough. The plastic ClearVue's last a long long time and a Lexan/polycarbonate home made one is not out of the realm of a do it yourself project. Nor is fibre glass or wood/bending plywood. It is the proper shape that is important and you lungs don't care about looks.

Pete


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## heimlaga (29 Jun 2022)

Cheap flux core welders have a solid reputation for convincing people that they are unable to learn welding. Don't waste your money on those awful dicouragement boxes. A good quality mig or a decent DC stick welder can do the job. The mig is way more expensive but does the job in a quarter of the time with one tenth of the fuss. 
I welded everything with my 200 ampere three phase rectifyer stick welder. Made by Unitor A/S in Stavanger in the 1960-ies. Still going strong. It costed me 90 euros plus the cost of new cables and a new handle some 15 years ago.


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## Ttrees (29 Jun 2022)

I get what you're saying @heimlaga, but I've heard similar things told about cheapo ark welders aswell, which I've not found the case with my £40/50euro middle isle purchase.
I think it would be a least worth a shot looking up some utubes should one pop up locally.
Anything else is likely more than 3 times the cost compared, and that's too much for me.



_


_

@Inspector would be favouring a heavier walled cyclone due to possible decibel reduction...
Am I talking out my pie hole here?
Wondering if there's a situation which I just might fit right into here, i.e
Hand tool quiet woodworker, using it as a dust extractor come air cleaner after machining.
(just something to suck out everything out of the machines without needing to get hoover and paint brush,too often)
One hefty run possibly bolted to mobile base, with say two branches of short flex hoses
whatever be suitably sized.
This might just be the opposite case, and be much louder, I have no clue.

Two other reasons for a hefty machine, possibly less tippy than a lightweight counterpart,
and transportability, should the clobber need be moved into a trailer along with everything else.


(Once again no need reply to my ignorant rantings)
Just doing a bit of fishing, should something of slightly lesser spec spark some interest,
if even for being a bit greener...
It appears the cyclones from Laguna, Axi and Jet have some models in this range, 
but am not sure how close to Bill's specs they achieve.
Could be the same 13" impellers as in many of the dust bag "spreader" type systems.

Not seen someone who is happy with 3 or 4hp system, but seen plenty of folks making a second one taking Bill's suggestion of the 5hp motor.
Seemingly things must be better matched when designing something smaller, and any one thing not quite right drastically reduces performance compared.

So much to look into really, like de-rating a 5hp motor via VFD for the larger shaft,
(TBH not even sure what size shaft a 4hp motor is generally, so lots to look up)
Looking for some negatives from the larger motor de-rated, whether I can get away with supplying 3hp, should the goal of decent Pentz figures be possible, which I believe is around 1000CFM or thereabouts.

Cheers

Tom


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## Inspector (29 Jun 2022)

I doubt there would be much if any noise reduction using thicker steel in the cyclone. If you want to make it quieter you need sound absorbing materials surrounding the cyclone. Some of the stuff used in cars and boats and space to a surrounding cabinet so the sound can't bridge the gap and is absorbed. A complex subject in its own right. Using a dust collector as a general room air filter is not the best largely because of the noise and also the amount of power it uses. If the cyclone is a good one using large ducting it captures the dust at source, never letting it get free to need cleaning up after. A fan in the wall or open doors and windows when the weather is decent is the low cost way to get rid of airborne dust and fumes. 

Pete


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## heimlaga (29 Jun 2022)

The reason for having a large and powerful blower is to move a large enough volume of air. When fine dust is sprayed in all directions from a cutting blade one needs a large enough "bubble" around the blade where the air is flowing towards the inlet to the dust collection system. To make the "bubble" sufficiently large to really catch the fine dust one needs a 150-160mm dust port on many machines and a blower powerfull enough to make the air flow through it at a high enough pace.
When I had a too small blower my 160mm dust collection system silted up with dust. 

Some of my dust ports are still too small but I am enlarging them when time allows. 120mm for the small machines and 160 for the larger is my goal.


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## highwood122 (30 Jun 2022)

Spectric said:


> I think the job would have looked better had he done the welding with TIG!


would have looked better gold plated but would it work any better. he done a good job with what he had. well done pal


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## imageel (30 Jun 2022)

Reading all this with interest since I have to rebuild my cyclone after my little mishap a while back when my drum almost caught fire! I used a motor/impeller from a Jet DC-1100 so underpowered according to Bill Pentz's calculations however with a cyclone diameter the same size as a standard 220l oil drum I found that in practice it works quite well with my usual workshop tools - both larger chips from my thicknesser and finer stuff from my bandsaw all get separated out ok.
I don't do much router work however it seems to cope with that too.
I bought off eBay a couple of empty 220l oil drums for £5ea and plan to use part of one for the cyclone portion and if I can bend it - the walls are part corrugated, for the cone. I did look at buying some 1-1.5mm sheet from a local steel stockholder but at £80 for a 2 x 1m sheet I discounted that thought!
I don't have a MIG welder which as others have said would be ideal for this but I do have an AC/DC TIG welder as I do some fab in Aluminium, and I think whilst it's possible to get a neater finish than with MIG, welding thin material and on curves where it would be difficult to place a moveable backer 'heatsink' would make that a challenge, and as others have stated, whilst his welds aren't the prettiest they look perfectly adequate and that's all that counts!
I look forward to the next instalment to see how it turns out -I have a couple of intervening jobs to complete before I can start on it, so am in no hurry.


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## Spectric (30 Jun 2022)

highwood122 said:


> would have looked better gold plated


That is just cosmetic, the welding is both cosmetic and structural and would have looked better if done with TIG, I am not saying it should have been done with TIG because he may not have access to one!


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## Ttrees (20 Jul 2022)

Part 2 was uploaded today, can't wait to watch it


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## Inspector (20 Jul 2022)

I would have thought with the fabrication and welding he did in the first instalment he was going to weld up the impeller housing in the second video. No matter as the Clear Vue's have been making them from MDF since the beginning with no problems. 
Pete


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## Ttrees (21 Jul 2022)

Unsure if the vast/small majority of folks whom have read Bill Pentz's website page
watching this video, who were pretty certain this was going to take the 5hp motor,
expected the blower to run without ducting at 25 amps!
(which Jer explained is over the rating of the motor, as is)
Wondering how much this can be theoretically reduced with ducting,
which I presume were going to find out in the next part...

as that combined with VFD for startup, lighter gauge impeller,
and smaller motor in my case,
Seemingly 3 hp is what I'm looking for after watching this, unless those amps drop by something ridiculous when rigged up, and would suggest best for a scrimper like me to have one run only to be as efficient as possible,
as Jer's machine as is, works out to be about 5 amps per HP.

Trying to figure out if I can get say something close to 1000CFM from something smaller, it's still likely to be well over the ratings of say a kettle by the looks of things.
Seems no way round getting 16a plugs and new CU fitted in shed, even for the
strange usage I would want a big dust extraction for, which is a temporary phase.

I look forward to seeing what results come from this,
and it would be really interesting if he decided to change something if need be.

Yet to see what limitations can be made for my case, as it wouldn't be for long duration, so seems I can do better than the wimpy dust bags off the shelf,
which I believe about 2hp might be the max you can buy with a household plug attached...
But can I achieve to run something with better performance
Taking example from the classifieds three phase flavours which are 3hp to 5hp motors with 12" impellers at best, which might be my limit, I see real rough examples of these occasionally

I'm getting the impression that 12" is the limit for a 3hp motor,
Not to say Bill might suggest attempting this for multiple reasons,
but one can take a few of these things into account if making one from scratch.

It would be nice to imagine the weight of the impeller has much factor, but I cant see
it making much difference once its up to speed, especially not so with VFD soft start.

Half that amperage is still WAY too much for a household plug and would probably cause a fire if let run for the time it takes to make a cuppa tea.

_(cyclone / lights would be the only thing running in my case, and no machinery)_
I don't know these things, and not keen to find out without having the figures.

Cheers to Jer for making these videos, they really are a helpful resource for one who wants to make an extraction system.

All the best

Tom


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## baldkev (23 Jul 2022)

Nukeson Woodworking Dust Extraction Cyclone & Wood Chip Collector


Nukeson Woodworking Dust Extraction Cyclone & Wood Chip Collector. This Nukeson Wood Cyclone will collect all woodchips and particles before entering the existing dust extraction system, helping to keep your area clean and tidy. Buy Only £599.95




www.indooroutdoors.co.uk


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## Ttrees (24 Jul 2022)

baldkev said:


> Nukeson Woodworking Dust Extraction Cyclone & Wood Chip Collector
> 
> 
> Nukeson Woodworking Dust Extraction Cyclone & Wood Chip Collector. This Nukeson Wood Cyclone will collect all woodchips and particles before entering the existing dust extraction system, helping to keep your area clean and tidy. Buy Only £599.95
> ...


It appears like it maybe suitable for a smaller motor, but not much info about it.
It seems to me, or for anyone who wishes to have something not quite so powerful/consumptive, that it would be a good idea to start at the impeller 
and motor choice, which becomes more fun when using a VFD
cabable of de-rating upto a 5hp motor, 
Should that be or not be a good idea for some reasons,
loads of questions regarding that, as it seems a reasonable idea to start with something existing should it have a suitable impeller already,
well at least large enough, and presumably lighter than Jer's one,
should that make a big difference with use via VFD adjustable soft start.

It'll be interesting to make note of how much that 25 amps can be reduced to, 
and whether this is of concern for Jer.

Tom


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## baldkev (25 Jul 2022)

Hi Tom,
I got my motor and impeller up and running in the workshop back in January. I did a fairly quick and easy attempt at a 'cyclone' which in reality was a huge feed bin with the impeller housing on the top and a smaller feed bin on wheels underneath ( the bigger bin is 4' !!!)
I bought some ducting fittings and had some 145mm plastic pipe, which i used as the straights. I bought 6" flexi tube to go to the machines ( in approx 1m lengths )
It sounds like a jet fighter taking off and sucks chips off my hand at the bottom of the bin ( 4' away! )
This in turn meant that nothing much goes down to the feedbin on wheels!

I need to redo the ducting and probably just do away with the poor attempt at cyclone and accept i need an exterior bin store.
I guess my point is, when you go above a certain point, im not sure the cyclone would be effective. Im no expert though. The impeller is clearly drawing a massive amount of air and would probably over ride a cyclone? The housing inlet is 10" and i have 6" duct from the 'cyclone' attempt, which isnt very good tbh

I apologise for the mess on the photos, i was rushing to get it 'up and running' and hadn't tidied up for a while


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## Ttrees (25 Jul 2022)

The cone shape is to separate the fine dust from the heavy stuff and 
save your filter from getting clogged.
Are you extracting to outside or have you planned on fitting filters aswell?


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## Deadeye (24 Aug 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Not sure how many of you have seen or watch Jer Schmidt's youtube channel, I hadn't.
> I reckon @baldkev and @Inspector will have already seen this
> 
> Looks a proper job, and interesting to see another take on the design,
> ...




Interesting video and thread.

The Pentz website is a funny blend of engineering and polemic.

Funnily enough a cyclone was the first thing I built when I started woodworking 3 or 4 years ago now. I broadly followed Bill's maths but with some fairly major adaptations and shortcuts. What's I teresting is that those compromises appear to have very little detriment to performance. My conclusion is that a much simpler design can give you 95% plus of the performance benefit.

Mine is made of polycarbonate sheet 1.5 or 2mm I think). The cone is much more open than this one and I don't have a proper ramp - just the inlet pipe coming in at the edge and with a 45o angle down (it's manrose pipe). The offtake is in the centre. I've never yet had to empty the plastic bags below the micron cartridges and I empty the big tub below the cyclone about once a month. Dust meter says air is good, so I'm happy.


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## Ttrees (24 Aug 2022)

@Deadeye having a look for your machine but not seeing pics, which makes it difficult to get an idea of your polemic comment.
i.e whether you've got multiple runs for an entire production setup
or if it's for say two or three machines, like what would be my case.

Must look through more of your posts, sounds like it's doing a good job!
Cheers
Tom


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## Deadeye (25 Aug 2022)

Ttrees said:


> @Deadeye having a look for your machine but not seeing pics, which makes it difficult to get an idea of your polemic comment.
> i.e whether you've got multiple runs for an entire production setup
> or if it's for say two or three machines, like what would be my case.
> 
> ...


I'll take a photo - not a thing of beauty though! It's for a hobby workshop with usual bits. Main issue is long runs to the machines. The actual extractor is a twin tub.
My main point is that you don't need to get hung up about every last detail to still get a cracking outcome. If headroom is a problem then Then baffles seem to work nearly as well.

Also, anything heavy will end up in the tub, so the only issue is ensuring you have a very fine cartridge at the far end and how often that bit needs emptying or replacing.


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## Deadeye (25 Aug 2022)

Oh, and I have all the fine bits at the end so that I don't have to vent all my warm air outside in winter


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