# Wave kitchen



## Mr T (6 Jul 2010)

Hi

I thought some of you may be interested in a kitchen job we are working on at present. Made in ripple maple with a raised oak wave motif, the work tops are maple and walnut with walnut plinths an details.











The carcases are oak veneered mdf dominoed and screwed. I know of another maker who doesn't domino or biscuit his carcases, just screwing them, what do others do?

There are about 48 doors,drawer fronts and end panels, all veneered in maple and oak. I shot the veneers on the spindle moulder, a new method for me, I was impressed with the results. The veneer pack was sandwiched between boards on the sliding table of my saw spindle, clamped and weighed down with large weights, then run against a straight cutter. Even some very brittle oak had a very smooth edge.





I'm using a method popularised by Robert Ingham for gluing the veneer joints. I've used this a lot for jointing 1.5mm veneers but not so much on standard veneers. Butt the veneer edges then slightly stretch masking tape across the joint, about 200mm apart, finally run a piece down the joint. Turn the sheet over and open the joints to apply a bead of glue using a nozzle cut to a birds mouth, the tape on the other side acts as a hinge for this. Clean off any squeeze out then run a tape down the joint ensuring that the jointed surfaces are level. After the glue has dried the tape should peel off easily. I find this a lot easier than using traditional veneer tape.


















There are a number of challenges still to come on this project. I will report on how we dealt with them in due course


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## woodbloke (7 Jul 2010)

That's exactly how I join my veneers...works a treat. I use a combination of masking tape to pull the leaves together and traditional veneer tape - Rob


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## Eric The Viking (7 Jul 2010)

Cor, that looks nice! Looking forward to the next instalment.

I'm intrigued: you don't have the wave motif on the doors below the hob. Was that a customer choice, and if so, was there a particular reason?

Also, are you planning some sort of inlay between the two veneers or just a butt joint?


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## Orcamesh (7 Jul 2010)

Impressive project Mr T. Definitely interested in the progress of any homemade kitchens as this will be a future project for me! I have only minor experience with veneer so cant help with this but I was wondering too how people tend to make the carcasses for their kitchens. I have heard that people buy the flat pack carcasses from certain suppliers and then just add their own solid timber doors, but I prefer to make my own carcasses, the only issue is storage during the build. I was going to use ready veneered MDF and make my own solid timber frames into which these slot for all the side carcass work. Same for doors. Internal walls can be just veneered MDF sheets with solid lippings.

Anyway, will be following with interest...

cheers
HM


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## Mr T (7 Jul 2010)

Hi Eric

The customer decided they did not want the wave to extend round the sink area, a mistake in my view. The oak wave motif will be applied over the maple veneer on the doors. To ensure stability we will be making a three ply from oak venee then cutting the shape and applying it to the doors. This is why the customer does not want the wave near the sink, she is concerned it will collect dirt, however I would have thought this would have been no worse than on a frame and panel door.

We chose this method because we wanted the relieved effect of the raised oak wave. The main problem will be applying the wave without too much glue smearing over the maple.

Hawk moth, you could cut out and joint the cabinets but not assemble tham until the rest of the work has been done. If you are good at sketchup you should be able to take all measurements from a detailed drawing, make the doors and frames from the measurements and only put things together towards the end of the job. 

I say this confidently but it's my collegue who did the sketchup drawings of this kitchen!!

Chris


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## Orcamesh (7 Jul 2010)

Hi Chris

Yep, agreed, good idea. I guess it is just a question of being very organised. I do use Sketchup extensively so wont have problems there, I am currently drawing plans for a possible wardrobe for our bedroom, as SWMBO has requested that this be the next big job after I finish off a few smaller jobs.

Thanks for the tips and I will be interested to see how your design materialises.

cheers
HM/Steve



Mr T":2zpgc3el said:


> Hi Eric
> 
> The customer decided they did not want the wave to extend round the sink area, a mistake in my view. The oak wave motif will be applied over the maple veneer on the doors. To ensure stability we will be making a three ply from oak venee then cutting the shape and applying it to the doors. This is why the customer does not want the wave near the sink, she is concerned it will collect dirt, however I would have thought this would have been no worse than on a frame and panel door.
> 
> ...


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## phillyc (24 Jul 2010)

surely it's quicker and more cost effective just to by the MDF Veneered sheets in and cut everything to size on the dimension saw?

Phil


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## jasonB (24 Jul 2010)

phillyc":nek8d8ow said:


> surely it's quicker and more cost effective just to by the MDF Veneered sheets in and cut everything to size on the dimension saw?
> 
> Phil



Can't see how you would do it with pre veneered MDF, One you cant get it 1.5-3.0mm thick (not sure whats thickness isactually being used in the 3 ply construction. and what would you do with teh bare MDF edges? And how do you cut curves on a dimension saw?

Jason


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## phillyc (24 Jul 2010)

jasonB":3ndr2npx said:


> phillyc":3ndr2npx said:
> 
> 
> > surely it's quicker and more cost effective just to by the MDF Veneered sheets in and cut everything to size on the dimension saw?
> ...




I’m not wanting to have made it sound like I want to cause an augment was just floating an idea around that’s all....I made MDF beech veneered fitted wardrobes and cabinets recently and the veneer on the 18mm and 12mm MDF was 1.5mm thick.

Also for curves I didn’t mention cutting the curves on the saw that would be impossible I was mealy talking about cutting it all to width size etc.


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## jasonB (24 Jul 2010)

Well you would still have to pay to get the boards custom veneered in ripple maple so may as well get paid to do it yourself.

Also you can get a match for teh curved corner posts and concave corner unit door if you veneer it all yourself. And can get consecutive veneers and do whatever grain matching you want.

Yes you probably could but two curved boards of pre veneered up together but would have a problem with the overlayed look.

Jason


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## BradNaylor (2 Aug 2010)

Looks a fascinating job Chris - I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

It was only on a second reading that I realised that you were planting the oak veneer wave on top of the maple - I assumed at first that the two veneers would simply(!) be joined giving a flat finish. 

Do you not have any worries about the oak wave starting to come way at the edge in use?

Brad


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## Mr T (9 Aug 2010)

Hi

The reason we are veneering ourselves is that we want to have the grain continuous round the kitchen.

No Brad I did not have any worries about the wave detaching in use, that is until you mentioned it!!

We have now completed all the maple veneering of the doors, panels and corner posts.

A bit about the posts. These were machined on the spindle moulder in three cuts with a 98mm rad cutter. First cut in the middle, second at the top then turn the piece and take another at the top with a board clamped tothe table to stop it dropping away from the fence.









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After machining the posts were veneered on a jig. The post was put in the jig with the veneer taped over it then 1.5mm birch ply was taped over to give even pressure.





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The cabinets are also completed. We try to complete as much as possible in the workshop so that the fitting is as simple as possible. We are trying the idea of machining for a vertical spline on the cabinet sides so that they will align more easily when fitting.






Starting the wave this week!

Chris


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## tsb (29 Sep 2010)

Any chance of an update of this kitchen?


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## houtslager (1 Oct 2010)

and when you make the update, anychance of making the pics a tad smaller please, other wise looking great.

k


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## stoatyboy (1 Oct 2010)

I like that a considerably large amount

Could you make the doors solid so the wave went all the way through?

sorry if that's a numpty question!


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## Mr T (5 Oct 2010)

I have been thinking of posting an update on this as we can now see the end in sight! I have reduced the size of the images in photobucket so I hope that makes the post easier to read. I don't find this format very easy to go into detail ( I have just lost a hours worth of posting). So if you would like full details on the methods described please see recent blogs http://www.christribe.co.uk/blog/

The wave has now been applied to the doors and drawer fronts and the wall units and lower drawer fronts on one side of the kitchen trial assembled 





We had hoped to use cnc produced templates to cut the wave, but were unable to get sketchup pro to talk to the local bar fitters cnc machine. Instead I used a router ad trammel to cut the tmplates. The 1.4mm oak veneer for the wave was jointed and the postion of the doors marked. The wave was then cut using a collar guided router and te template.

Applying the wave required careful work as any discontinuity between doors would have been very obvious. The postion of the wave was established the door sides cut back where the wave was to be applied and a 2mm oak edging applied. The wave was then appplied to front and back, so the top of the door appears to be solid oak ( to actually do it in solid would have involved serious movement problems Stoatyboy)





The wave was also applied to the rounded corner posts and side panels





Titebond 3 was the adhesive used.


The kitchen has 19 drawers in all. My collegue, Daid Wilson, has been working on these. He uses a Woodrat to cut the pins but cuts the dovetails by "hand". It is not possible to get wide dovetails with narrow pins which we like using a wooodrat or any other routing jig.

We tried to come up with a minimalist jig and method for cutting the dovetails on the bandsaw. We made this jig





It consists of a base board with four dowels which control the angle of cut. We marked up just one in a set of drawer sides and used this to set up the jig for each cut in the set. By changing the position of the dowels the angle of cut could be reversed. A more details (and better) description is in the blog.

Using this method David was able to dovetail and groove in the bottom board at three hours per drawer. Taking approx 60 hours for the lot.

I would be interested in any comments here or on the blog as to whether you think drawers dovetailed in this way can truthfully be said to be hand cut.

The only things left to do onthe kitchen are the worktops and the finishing, oiled, and the various bits and pieces that always get left to the end.

I will post pictures of the finished product in November after we have fitted it.


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## BradNaylor (7 Oct 2010)

Mr T":vmn3yls2 said:


> .
> Using this method David was able to dovetail and groove in the bottom board at three hours per drawer. Taking approx 60 hours for the lot.



:shock: :shock: :shock: 

Wouldn't it have been quicker and just as valid to hand cut dovetails at the front corners for aesthetics and trench or domino at the back?

A week and a half making drawer boxes! I'd have been slitting my wrists!


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## CNC Paul (7 Oct 2010)

Chris,

That is coming along really well, how much time have you invested so far?




Mr T":1mvu9wuk said:


> We had hoped to use cnc produced templates to cut the wave, but were unable to get sketchup pro to talk to the local bar fitters cnc machine.




Did you give the bar fitter the DXF output from Sketchup ?


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## Mr T (11 Oct 2010)

Brad wrote:


> Wouldn't it have been quicker and just as valid to hand cut dovetails at the front corners for aesthetics and trench or domino at the back?



I suppose it's a matter of where you drawer  the line. Some may say "Why bother with hand cutting at all and use a dovetail jig". We try to bring the same approach to kitchens as we do to furniture. Many furniture makers make kitchens to a lower spec and moan that they would rather be making "proper" furniture they only do it for the money. We want to make kitchens to the same level as our furniture and be proud of them. They are expensive, but we only plan to make one a year so we can wait for the right customer to come along.

CNC Paul said:




> That is coming along really well, how much time have you invested so far?



We have spent 500 hours on it so far (I can hear Duncan sniggering already), but we are within budget with some profit showing at present.

We sent the CNC chap some DFX files from sketchup pro but they did not work. We are investigating this further.

Chris


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## Doctor (11 Oct 2010)

Looks good but I just for the life of me can't understand why the oak veneers are planted on top.
I can't help but think it will look "wrong".
I would worry about damage due to the veneer being caught or knocked.

I'm sure it will look fantastic though and the client will be delighted.


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## BradNaylor (12 Oct 2010)

Mr T":2kfyzazp said:


> I suppose it's a matter of where you drawer  the line. Some may say "Why bother with hand cutting at all and use a dovetail jig". We try to bring the same approach to kitchens as we do to furniture.



It's funny - I was taught at college 30 odd years ago to dovetail (by hand) the front corners of drawers and to use a simple housing joint at the back. I have assumed ever since that this was the 'correct' way to make drawers.



Mr T":2kfyzazp said:


> We have spent 500 hours on it so far (I can hear Duncan sniggering already)



Not sniggering at all. Chris. I am in awe of your patience and persistence and admire your determination to stick with your high standards, even on a kitchen.

The fact is that even very expensive kitchens are generally made with the almost certain knowledge that it will all end up on a skip within 10 - 20 years. I hate to say it, but in all probability that is going to be the fate of the 'Wave Kitchen' too. With this in mind, 99.9% of makers compromise on certain aspects of the design or production methodology, and 99.99% of clients do not want to pay for top cabinetmaking techniques.

Congratulations for being among the 0.1% of makers and more especially for finding one of the 0.01% of clients!

:lol: 

Brad


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## BradNaylor (12 Oct 2010)

BradNaylor":2k445w4y said:


> It was only on a second reading that I realised that you were planting the oak veneer wave on top of the maple - I assumed at first that the two veneers would simply(!) be joined giving a flat finish.
> 
> Do you not have any worries about the oak wave starting to come away at the edge in use?






Doctor":2k445w4y said:


> Looks good but I just for the life of me can't understand why the oak veneers are planted on top.
> I can't help but think it will look "wrong".
> I would worry about damage due to the veneer being caught or knocked.



And then there were two...

:shock:


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## Doctor (12 Oct 2010)

Finally Dunc, we agree on something :lol:


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## Mr T (12 Oct 2010)

Hi
Doctor said:


> Looks good but I just for the life of me can't understand why the oak veneers are planted on top.
> I can't help but think it will look "wrong".
> I would worry about damage due to the veneer being caught or knocked



I understand your comment, we thought about it for a long time and seeing the finished panels it does work. We thought the tactile nature of the raised veneer would be attractive. On the wall units the raised edge creates an attractive shadow line. The 1.4mm veneer has good adhesion along all edges and they are arrised well so I do not tink there will be an issue with catching. To apply the veneer in the usual way would have pushed the hours up even further so there were economic as well as aesthetic considerations in the method.




> It's funny - I was taught at college 30 odd years ago to dovetail (by hand) the front corners of drawers and to use a simple housing joint at the back. I have assumed ever since that this was the 'correct' way to make drawers.



I am self taught but David, with whom I work, trained at Leeds College of Art and was taught to dovetail the backs of drawers. They do things differently in Yorkshire  

Oh dear, I seem to have stated using emoticons  

Chris


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## Mr T (12 Oct 2010)

By the way, if anyone happens to be in N Yorks call in you can see the kitchen "in the flesh". You cold even check out the veneer edges and reassure Brad and The Doctor that they are quite robust!

Chris


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## jimmy rivers (14 Oct 2010)

Looks great Chris. David pulling his weight?

Look forward to seeing it all fitted.

Jim


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## Dibs-h (15 Oct 2010)

BradNaylor":1r6y92zs said:


> It's funny - I was taught at college 30 odd years ago to dovetail (by hand) the front corners of drawers and to use a simple housing joint at the back. I have assumed ever since that this was the 'correct' way to make drawers.



+1

When I did woodworking at school - back in the days when Schools actually had proper woodworking facilities, that's what I was taught. And the reasoning for that (if you could call it that) chimes with other stuff I've seen over the years.

But as with all these things - in some cases there isn't truly a right way, it's whatever is right for you (and your client).

Dibs


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## Mr T (15 Mar 2011)

Hi

Finally got some pofessional shots of this kitchen. Quite pleased with them as is the customer with the kitchen. We also did th floor inlay. More on the making of this kitchen on my blog http://www.christribe.co.uk/blog/wave-kitchen-news/00048.html:



























No sign of lifting of the oak veneer by the way Duncan.

Chris


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## mtr1 (15 Mar 2011)

Very smart, I like it. How long did it take Chris?


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## Mr T (15 Mar 2011)

Ages!

Chris

PS I'll look up the time and post later


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## mailee (16 Mar 2011)

That really is a stunning kitchen Chris. I don't suppose it was you who made the one on the Saturday kitchen show was it? Very interesting build.


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## RogerM (16 Mar 2011)

That really is something very special. Beautifully executed and the client can be sure they have something unique.


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## Mr T (16 Mar 2011)

Hi Mark

Are you sitting down? We took 1009 hr on it, including the floor and project management.

Chris


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## mtr1 (16 Mar 2011)

Thanks for your honesty Chris, it represents over two thirds of a year of bookable man hours! Is there anything you think you could of done to cut some time off, whilst still maintaining the high standard, now it's done and dusted? Please don't say sub it out :lol: I know one or two D/M's that do just that for kitchens.


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## Mr T (16 Mar 2011)

Hi Mark

This kitchen was made entirely from scratch. The carcases dominoed from oak veneered mdf, the doors and drawer panels were veneered using a vacuum bag and the wave applied front and back., the cacases were finished using brush applied acrylic and the doors, worktops etc with rag applied hardwax oil, the drawers have "hand cut dovetails". I suppose we could have done each of those differently to bring down the man hours. Given our current setup as high end bespoke furniture makers these seemed to be the best way of doing it. Bear in mind also that the cost of the kitchen was still probably less than the usual high end makers such as Smallbone and Wilkinsons would charge for an equivelant. We charged £31,000 and came in about £400 under that.

The two main things that would have cut down the time would have been spray finishing or a heated veneer press. Both of which would take up a lot of space in the workshop. Perhaps if we move workshops we may consider that. The area in which we under estimated seriously was the fitting. We tried to solve all the problems in the workshop but still took a lot longer to fit than we planned, I suppose there are always a lot more things to do on a fit than are planned for.

Also we had a student working with us for about two months in the summer, he worked at about a third of our speed but we paid him minimum wage. THis would be reflected in the hours.

Chris


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## mtr1 (16 Mar 2011)

Mr T":3ldnjox3 said:


> Hi Mark
> 
> This kitchen was made entirely from scratch. The carcases dominoed from oak veneered mdf, the doors and drawer panels were veneered using a vacuum bag and the wave applied front and back., the cacases were finished using brush applied acrylic and the doors, worktops etc with rag applied hardwax oil, the drawers have "hand cut dovetails". I suppose we could have done each of those differently to bring down the man hours. Given our current setup as high end bespoke furniture makers these seemed to be the best way of doing it. Bear in mind also that the cost of the kitchen was still probably less than the usual high end makers such as Smallbone and Wilkinsons would charge for an equivelant. We charged £31,000 and came in about £400 under that.
> 
> ...




Chris,

When you mention "handcut dovetails" are you hogging out the waste with a router and then finishing to the knife lines by hand, or are you literately chopping these all by hand? The cost of your kitchen seem's low to me for this level, and attention to detail. The grain matching is flawless, as far as I can tell. I would say SB and Wilks would be charging 45k+ and not doing such a fine job either.


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## Mr T (21 Mar 2011)

Hi Mark

Thanks for your comments.

I mentioned the dovetails on a previous post. We cut the dovetails by "hand" on the bandsaw and cleaned up the pin sockets with a chisel. Then the pins were cut with a Woodrat. My collegue David Wilson is good with a WR and claims this method can be called "hand cut dovetails". I'm not so sure. A full description of this method is on the blog http://www.christribe.co.uk/blog/hand-cut-dovetails/00049.html. As Jason, who works with us, commented perhaps they could be called "contemporary hand cut dovetails" as opposed to "traditional hand cut dovetails"! I think it took 114 hrs to cut 19 large dovetailed drawers this way this way.

I would be interested to hear others views on what constitutes a "hand cut dovetail."

Chris


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## Anonymous (21 Mar 2011)

the kitchen looks brilliant Chris, I very much doubt i would have the patience to handle this one. I think the grain matching is absolutely spot on.

to me a hand cut dovetail is just that, marked out and cut by hand, with no use of mechanical aid.


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## Sgian Dubh (24 Mar 2011)

Mr T":1rsjmgq0 said:


> We cut the dovetails by "hand" on the bandsaw and cleaned up the pin sockets with a chisel. Then the pins were cut with a Woodrat... I think it took 114 hrs to cut 19 large dovetailed drawers this way this way.
> I would be interested to hear others views on what constitutes a "hand cut dovetail."
> Chris


That's interesting Chris, because I suspect you may have retrospectively overestimated the time you took to make the drawer boxes. The reason I suggest this is because I use a system of estimating whereby eight hours are allocated to making a single hand cut dovetailed drawer [four corners dovetailed]. This includes the manufacture and installation of slips, the making of a solid wood bottom and finally fitting the drawer to the opening. Multiples of the same, or similar, drawers attracts a 5% discount per drawer up to a maximum discount of 30%, ie six or more drawers automatically attracts the 30% discount. Further examples of discounting are: three drawers works out at 3 X 8 hours = 24 hours - 15% = 20.5 hours to the nearest half hour and; to make 6 drawers calculate (6 drawers X 8 hrs) X 0.7 [the 30% discount] = 33.5 hrs to the nearest half hour. Adjustments in time allowance, either up or down, are affected by the drawer's complexity, eg, a plywood or MDF drawer bottom simply cut to size takes less time than manufacturing a solid wood bottom.

Therefore, (19 drawers X 8 hrs) X 0.7 = 106.5 hours: a bit of a long (2-1/2+ weeks) boring job whichever way you look at it, ha, ha. In your case, having used machines to do the job, I guesstimate your actual time should be about half of that.

Attractive end result with the kitchen by the way. Slainte.


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## mtr1 (25 Mar 2011)

Hmmm I think my method(not mine of course) of cutting hand-cut dovetails is quicker(maybe), I freehand the sockets and pins with my router, then pare to the line with chisels, and bandsaw the tails freehand. Will know soon enough as I have about 30 to do in some wardrobes, fortunately not all at the same time, but I will keep a track on how long they take.


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## Mr T (29 Mar 2011)

Richard said:



> That's interesting Chris, because I suspect you may have retrospectively overestimated the time you took to make the drawer boxes. The reason I suggest this is because I use a system of estimating whereby eight hours are allocated to making a single hand cut dovetailed drawer [four corners dovetailed]. This includes the manufacture and installation of slips, the making of a solid wood bottom and finally fitting the drawer to the opening. Multiples of the same, or similar, drawers attracts a 5% discount per drawer up to a maximum discount of 30%, ie six or more drawers automatically attracts the 30% discount. Further examples of discounting are: three drawers works out at 3 X 8 hours = 24 hours - 15% = 20.5 hours to the nearest half hour and; to make 6 drawers calculate (6 drawers X 8 hrs) X 0.7 [the 30% discount] = 33.5 hrs to the nearest half hour. Adjustments in time allowance, either up or down, are affected by the drawer's complexity, eg, a plywood or MDF drawer bottom simply cut to size takes less time than manufacturing a solid wood bottom.
> 
> Therefore, (19 drawers X 8 hrs) X 0.7 = 106.5 hours: a bit of a long (2-1/2+ weeks) boring job whichever way you look at it, ha, ha. In your case, having used machines to do the job, I guesstimate your actual time should be about half of that.
> 
> Attractive end result with the kitchen by the way.



Thanks for the kind words about the kitchen Richard.

I can't explain our difference in calculations! I outlined earlier how we cut the dovetails, it's also on my blog here http://www.christribe.co.uk/blog/hand-cut-dovetails/00049.html

We used a mixture of hand work and machines but still it worked out at 6 hrs per drawer and that's without a solid bottom and drawer slips. I would not say we are particularly slow workers, so where is the problem? I would possibly query the 30% discount for bulk when hand cutting, how do the extra numbers speed up ones hand cutting? But this still does not explain our 6 hours compared to your 2.8 per drawer for the 19 kitchen drawers.

Perhaps you could do a dovetailing masterclass for us so we can see how to speed things up.

Chris


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## Sgian Dubh (29 Mar 2011)

Mr T":18sxnfta said:


> I can't explain our difference in calculations! I outlined earlier how we cut the dovetails, it's also on my blog here http://www.christribe.co.uk/blog/hand-cut-dovetails/00049.html
> 
> We used a mixture of hand work and machines but still it worked out at 6 hrs per drawer and that's without a solid bottom and drawer slips. I would not say we are particularly slow workers, so where is the problem? I would possibly query the 30% discount for bulk when hand cutting, how do the extra numbers speed up ones hand cutting? But this still does not explain our 6 hours compared to your 2.8 per drawer for the 19 kitchen drawers.
> 
> Perhaps you could do a dovetailing masterclass for us so we can see how to speed things up. Chris


_"Working in this way David was able to dovetail a complete drawer and groove in the bottom in three hours. Making it about 60 hours for the whole set of drawers"_ (Source, http://www.christribe.co.uk/blog/hand-cut-dovetails/00049.html, 2011).

Chris, I'd not looked at your blog before, but I've just followed your link and quoted from it. 60 hours is about what I'd expect for the task given your machine methodolgy. A so-called 'masterclass' is maybe not required after all. Perhaps the job really did take about 60 hours, but for some unknown reason (brain fart?) you indicated in this thread it took nearly twice as long. 

It's rather hard to comment without clarification of the job's time. Slainte.


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## Mr T (5 Apr 2011)

Hi Richard



> "Working in this way David was able to dovetail a complete drawer and groove in the bottom in three hours. Making it about 60 hours for the whole set of drawers" (Source, http://www.christribe.co.uk/blog/hand-c ... 00049.html, 2011).
> 
> Chris, I'd not looked at your blog before, but I've just followed your link and quoted from it. 60 hours is about what I'd expect for the task given your machine methodolgy. A so-called 'masterclass' is maybe not required after all. Perhaps the job really did take about 60 hours, but for some unknown reason (brain fart?) you indicated in this thread it took nearly twice as long.



Well I'm not sure how to explain that! I've delayed replying to your post as I have been working on a set of three drawers using the same construction methods as outlined in the blog, except I use a router to hog out the waste between the pins rather than the Wood Rat. I've kept a close record of time and it's come out at 21 hrs for the three. This includes cutting out and preparing the timber, cutting the tails and pins, cutting out and fitting the bottom,cleaning up inside faces before gluing up, dry clamping, wet clamping, cleaning up the outer faces to the pin ends, drilling for the drawer front and runner fittings.

The only possible explanation I an think of is that the figure of three hours per drawer was to get to the point where the joints are cut and the bottom fitted. There are a few tasks to complete before the drawer is finished as outlined above, these will have bumped up the rate per drawer.

However the rate per drawer to get to the point where it is ready to put on the runners and screw to the front seems to be a consistent 6-7 hours when using semi automated methods.


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## Sgian Dubh (5 Apr 2011)

Mr T":v1glame1 said:


> Well I'm not sure how to explain that!... I've kept a close record of time and it's come out at 21 hrs for the three. *This includes cutting out and preparing the timber,*
> However the rate per drawer to get to the point where it is ready to put on the runners and screw to the front seems to be a consistent 6-7 hours when using semi automated methods.


Chris, we may have found one cause for the higher than I would expect time for the task, highlighted in bold above.

The estimates I make for drawer construction start from timber that's already prepared for the job, ie, all the parts are squared and true ready for cutting to length, with the sides and front only requiring shooting to a tight fit into the opening-- this is for a traditional hand dovetailed drawer travelling between wooden runners and kickers.

In fact, all the tasks required for the construction of furniture (in the system of estimating I've devised and refined over many years) start with the assumption that the wood is already trued and squared. And for this initial selection of the wood, setting out the position of the parts on the rough sawn board, cutting to rough length and width, machining it square and true, etc, there is a charge of 0.8 hours per cubic foot: this is the same as charging 28.25 hours per cubic metre.

Similarly, there is a charge of 20 minutes per sheet for sizing board materials or, if preferred, three boards per hour, whatever the size, eg, 5' X 5', 8' X 4', 10' X 5', etc. These numbers are good when you are dealing with high grade boards, eg, if the board is pre-veneered with delicate veneers that mustn't be damaged and high accuracy is required. Cutting up lesser quality boards for lesser quality work may be chargeable at a slightly lower rate, eg, four boards per hour or one board every 15 minutes-- it depends on the job and the equipment and expertise to hand. Slainte.


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## Mr T (6 Apr 2011)

Hi Richard

That can't be the full explanation. There's about 0.36 cu ft in a drawer, allowing for wastage it's only going to add about 0.4 hrs then another bit for the sheet, so not more that 30-45 min. A big difference between my 6-7hrs per drawer and your 2.8 hrs plus 30-45 min. for semi automated methods.

This seems to be a dialogue between the two of us. It would be interesting to hear what times others reckon on for a drawer, I hope it doesn't show that I am hopelessly slow!

Chris


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## mtr1 (7 Apr 2011)

I would be very disappointed if I didn't get two drawers done in a day, in fact I used to be able to do more, but I was doing price work for ten years. I think I was more motivated when I was in a very competitive(macho) environment, than I am now I have my own workshop perhaps.
I've got about thirty drawers to do soon, and I'm going to borrow a woodrat to see if it's quicker or a bit of a faff as I suspect. I will do 15 my way, 15 with the rat, and keep track of the times.


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