# New Backsaw recommendations?



## Anonymous (10 Aug 2006)

Hi people,

I am looking for some informed opinion on some new purchases I have to make.

I need a good Tenon saw and a fine Dovetail saw, these will be used only for carcase joint work.

I really don't want any "designer label" types just decent saws that will respond to my technique.

Thanks for reading.


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## Philly (10 Aug 2006)

Hi Haze
Welcome to the forum!
What sort of budget are you thinking of?
Philly


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## Anonymous (10 Aug 2006)

Thanks Philly, no set budget but at the same time looking for value for money.

Good sturdy saws that can carry out their function.
I just plan to cut wood with them, other than that they will be of no value to me, I am not a collector or investor etc.

I had Drabble & Sanderson's until recently, workshop got broken into and the rest is history.


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## Ian Dalziel (10 Aug 2006)

Hazewood,
there are a few makers still around....Pax....Roberts and Lee...etc. Axminster do their victor range which is pax i beleive.
worth considering japanese as well.



Ian


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## Philly (10 Aug 2006)

Haze
Aminster do a selection here. As Ian said, I believe their "Victor" range are made by Thomas Flinn, so a good saw for a good price.
The Lie-Nielsen saws are twice the price but they are SO good. As are the Adria ones.......
Hope this is of help?
Philly


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## David C (11 Aug 2006)

A few years ago I got a 10" Roberts and Lee dovetail saw, which was not bad at all, try Tilgear.

One common problem is too much, or uneven set. but this is relatively easy to fix by stoning off the excess with a fine slipstone.

Have recently ordered a dovetail saw from Mike Wenzlof (Spelling?) and expect this to be very good indeed for thin hardwood, 5/16" or less. This is not a cheap option, but dovetail saws are not purchased often.

The Sun Child Dozuki, from Thanet tools is a great saw and works much better, for dovetailing in hardwood, than any other mass produced Japanese model we have ever tried. Very reasonable at about £30 ish.

So many Dozukis sold here are designed for crosscutting softwood.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## Alf (11 Aug 2006)

Welcome to the forum, hazewood. Been debating how best to answer this one, and on reflection I think buying a Western hand saw boils down to this:

If you can do a little DIY saw doctoring, or have a tame one handy, then the saw world is the mollusc of your choice, old or new. If you don't care about handle shape or have no objection to a little rasp work, that opens up your options even further into new models. Either way, you're looking at a certain amount of tuning. If you can't do any of these things but want a saw ready to use with a comfy handle, then "designer label" is the way to go. Or a lucky secondhand find. The choice depends on what you're comfortable doing and how tool fussy you are really. :wink:

Japanese saws are a closed Sushi Bar to me 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (11 Aug 2006)

You may (or may not) remember me referring to the best saw doctor I've ever seen at Tony Murland's auction.

Anyway, he was there again.

Relevant to this thread, he was selling a load of vintage (1880 - 1950) hand saws, and a new Roberts and Lee handsaw.

He said that the steel in the Roberts & Lee was superb, and a pleasure to work with.

(He didn't say much about the saw, one way or the other, just the steel).

Just "info for the mix"

BugBear


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## Anonymous (11 Aug 2006)

Thanks for all the input, everything I have read makes sense.

I think I am too old to change to Japanese saws, after 35 years holding a particular handle type it becomes an extension of the arm!

Alf, I usually give half a day every week - 10 days over to tool and workshop maintenance.
To fully understand how a tool works you have to be able change its nappy when it starts grunting at you

Whilst I am sure there are many quality 2nd hand saws to be purchased I would feel safer buying a new one from an established source.
I am not sure if 2nd hand goods are covered by "consumer rights" etc.

At this point I am leaning towards Roberts and Lee. They have a tradition and reputation in the business, plus the fact they are local.

Thanks to all for marking my card!


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## bugbear (11 Aug 2006)

hazewood":3o3lfubg said:


> ...
> To fully understand how a tool works you have to be able change its nappy when it starts grunting at you
> .
> .
> ...



If you buy a trad (i.e. non hard point) saw, you going to have to find a sharpening service, or teach yourself.

Judging by your first statement, you incline to the latter.

As such, if you do a little research (or ask here) you can rapidly learn enough to evaluate second hand saws, and revive them.

(short version - nice curvy comfy handle with no woodworm, straight blade, handle tight on blade = buy it!)

Whilst car-boot saws aren't covered by regs, if you know enough, you should normallty get a good 'un, and with prices at 3-10 pounds, you get several bites at the cherry before you're totally out of pocket.

In the second hand market 20 quid should get you a vintage classic in good order (not sharpened) from a full time tool dealer.

That's good value.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (11 Aug 2006)

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## bugbear (11 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1eswgfh0 said:


> ... local saw doctor.... Had to pay another £3 to have it sharpened and set -



If I had a local saw doctor who did a decent job for 3 quid, I'd never have learnt either.

BugBear (whose local services were poor *and* charged more than 3 quid)


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## Keefaz (11 Aug 2006)

Hmmm... just about on topic. I bought a couple of old tenon saws at the weekend and they're as blunt as a cobble. Inititally, I thought I'd be able to learn to sharpen them myself, but I'm beginning to wonder if I've got either the time or patience to learn. Does anyone know a good saw doctor near Newcastle/Tyneside?


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## Alf (11 Aug 2006)

bugbear":t6oa9ww1 said:


> If I had a local saw doctor who did a decent job for 3 quid, I'd never have learnt either.


If I had a saw doctor who did any job at all for 3 quid, I wouldn't have learnt either... :roll: 

Actually I was thinking about that the other day. All ye ancient texts say "yea, verily, take it to the saw doctor" so _why are there so many secondhand saw sets to be found_? My profound thought for the day - please, no applause... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Also I know the difference between rip and crosscut, and he didn't.


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## Paul Chapman (11 Aug 2006)

Where are all these saw doctors anyway :? I saw one once years ago at the Woodworker Show at Ally Pally - an old boy with glasses and one peculiar eye, but blimey he could sharpen a saw quickly. Was going to send a saw to him once but lost his card. Loads of articles I've read tell you to send your saw to a saw doctor but nobody ever tells you who or where they are :? Anyone have any recommendations?

Paul


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## Anonymous (11 Aug 2006)

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## Anonymous (11 Aug 2006)

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## Alf (11 Aug 2006)

Paul, there is actually a Saw Doctor Association, but it does seem to be primarily concerned with machinery. My own nearby saw doctor was a founding member, which possibly tells you a lot given my experience related above. They do my planer blades beautifully though.  Used to be the local ironmongers had some old fellow in a dusty corner somewhere they could send hand saws to for hand filing, although those chaps are dying out leaving us all high and dry, but you might be lucky. If you still have a local ironmongers...

I dunno, maybe I should stop mucking about and advertise my services. :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (11 Aug 2006)

Alf":22533wbn said:


> ...I dunno, maybe I should stop mucking about and advertise my services. :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf


Can you say, _*Tool Money*_? :lol: 

Take care, Mike


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## Paul Chapman (11 Aug 2006)

Alf":3f5m2m75 said:


> Paul, there is actually a Saw Doctor Association, but it does seem to be primarily concerned with machinery.



Thanks for that, Alf. Perhaps the best way forward is to learn how to do it. Could be a good topic for discussion at Philly's get-together next month if any of those who are going know how it's done...... 8-[ 8-[ 

Paul


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## stairman (11 Aug 2006)

Alf":n8uy071j said:


> Paul, there is actually a Saw Doctor Association,


 
Have Booked marked it thanks Alf :lol:


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## engineer one (11 Aug 2006)

look i know you live in cornwall alf, but can you get anyone to do anything for 3 quid these days??? :lol: :twisted: 

that's what i charge for a chisel and that does not take as long as a saw i am sure.

think there is a company near high wycombe, will find there card and post
their boss claimed they do hand work too.

paul :wink:


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## Colin C (11 Aug 2006)

Hi hazewood
I have just remember #-o :roll: 
There is a tool shop near me that has some old tenon saws for sale ( ones people have not picked up after being sharpen :roll: )
I can have a look for you  on monday , to see if there are any good and how much, that is if you want me to  
You will also have to pay the postage :wink: 
Ps They will be sharp too


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## Alf (12 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":15dhpej5 said:


> Could be a good topic for discussion at Philly's get-together next month if any of those who are going know how it's done...... 8-[ 8-[


Hmm... Got a saw vice, Philly? Or will I have to bring my own :roll: :lol:

Jacob, sorry, I meant to say about the x-cut/rip hybrid. Yes, you _could_ do that,and then not only d'you get the worst of both worlds but also slash the number of legitimately needed saws in half. You can see the problem with that, I'm sure... :wink: Not that the medic in question could have done that anyway. Apparently rip means "fewer teeth" so a hybrid probably would have had every other tooth knocked out or something. Oi vey. :roll:

Cheers, Alf


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## Philly (12 Aug 2006)

Alf
I do have a badly lashed together vise-you better bring the Disston along :wink: 
I also have a pile of saw files (and old saws wanting love :lol: )
Cheers
Philly


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## Alf (12 Aug 2006)

Philly":379y16ma said:


> Alf
> I do have a badly lashed together vise-you better bring the Disston along :wink:


Coo, not likely - not now I know that model's so hard to come by. You don't want me sobbing ina corner 'cos I dropped it in transit  I can bring my own badly lashed together one :wink: :lol:



Philly":379y16ma said:


> I also have a pile of saw files (and old saws wanting love :lol: )


Oh lordy me, what have I done... #-o

Cheers, Alf


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## engineer one (12 Aug 2006)

oi all those volunteering two steps back, NOT YOU ALF :lol: :twisted: 

if in doubt they always said DON'T volunteer.

paul :wink:


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## Alf (12 Aug 2006)

I plead insanity. It's not there isn't plenty of evidence to back that up... :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (12 Aug 2006)

Alf":10eldoac said:


> Paul Chapman":10eldoac said:
> 
> 
> > Could be a good topic for discussion at Philly's get-together next month if any of those who are going know how it's done...... 8-[ 8-[
> ...



Might just bring along my knackered old Spear & Jackson tennon saw in case you want to demonstrate on that :-k 8-[ 

Paul


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## MikeW (12 Aug 2006)

Alf":1zbfk1v2 said:


> I plead insanity. It's not there isn't plenty of evidence to back that up... :lol:


 :lol: Hope you can hold onto a cup of tea the next day :wink: 

Gosh, I wish I could make it to the meet. I would like to request lots of pictures and highlights of the time together!

Take care, my friends. Mike


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## Alf (12 Aug 2006)

Tsk, wrote some real gobbledegook there. I'll try that again:



> I plead insanity. It's not *as if* there isn't plenty of evidence to back that up...



What's that saying? Sharpen a man's saw and he has a sharp saw until he dulls it; show a man how to sharpen and he has sharp saws for life...? :lol: Bring your specs, chaps. :twisted: 

Mike, holding a cup of tea will not be a problem. I can do that while looking over shoulders and helpfully saying "you're doing very well, but are you sure you really want to make that a pull saw?" :wink: :lol: Actually it's little teeth before the eyes that gets to me; after an about an hour they start jumping sideways. 8-[ 

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (12 Aug 2006)

Alf":1x04b3gn said:


> What's that saying? Sharpen a man's saw and he has a sharp saw until he dulls it; show a man how to sharpen and he has sharp saws for life...? :lol: Bring your specs, chaps. :twisted:



I'm polishing my specs already  

Paul


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## MikeW (13 Aug 2006)

Just a thought. Hopefully everyone brings an appropriate file for the saws they bring to learn on...

I know BB has gone round on finding good files, so perhaps he'll have local recommendations. Else, LV sells Nicholsons, LN sells Grobet and Pete Taran sells Bahco.

Reading through BB's and or Pete Taran's saw filing primers would be helpful. Also making a rake/fleam gadget ahead of time, or at least a small block of wood with you would be helpful. For the gadget, refer to BB's web page on making one.

And make sure any saw of value is sharpened before too many bears, er, beers are consumed might be a good idea :lol: 

Have fun. Mike


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## Paul Chapman (13 Aug 2006)

MikeW":2pnjo10n said:


> Just a thought. Hopefully everyone brings an appropriate file for the saws they bring to learn on...
> 
> I know BB has gone round on finding good files, so perhaps he'll have local recommendations. Else, LV sells Nicholsons, LN sells Grobet and Pete Taran sells Bahco.
> 
> ...



Thanks Mike - helpful advice as always. I'm looking up the stuff right now - don't want Alf to tell us off for not doing our homework 8-[ 8-[ 8-[ 

Paul


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## Alf (14 Aug 2006)

Something for edge jointing would be good too; black marker pen to blacken the teeth mebbe; handles for files (don't want to find out what Philly's local A & E is like...) Oo, it's starting to sound like work - and on fruit juice too. :shock: 

'Course, if you do all that you won't, with any luck, need me at all... :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (14 Aug 2006)

Alf":5urmr301 said:


> Something for edge jointing would be good too; black marker pen to blacken the teeth mebbe; handles for files



They're on my list....... :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (14 Aug 2006)

Oh no, he's got a list! Hell, and I was counting on you forgetting between now and then. #-o Oh well, maybe you'll lose it... [-o< :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (14 Aug 2006)

Alf":28k9qi1o said:


> Oh no, he's got a list! Hell, and I was counting on you forgetting between now and then. #-o Oh well, maybe you'll lose it... [-o< :lol:



I also have a short-term memory problem, so you might be in luck :lol: 

What list :? :? :? :? 

Paul


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## bugbear (14 Aug 2006)

Alf":16df4a5q said:


> Used to be the local ironmongers had some old fellow in a dusty corner somewhere they could send hand saws to for hand filing, although those chaps are dying out leaving us all high and dry, but you might be lucky. If you still have a local ironmongers...



I have 2. Both offer saw sharpening services. Both were rubbish.

Sadly, not all "old fellows" are quite as good as they say they are.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (20 Aug 2006)

Colin C":212zo13p said:


> Hi hazewood
> I have just remember #-o :roll:
> There is a tool shop near me that has some old tenon saws for sale ( ones people have not picked up after being sharpen :roll: )


Thanks Colin C for the offer, but I have my saws sorted out.
Sorry about the late reply, I haven't been online other than to do emails.

Thanks again.

Joe


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## Colin C (20 Aug 2006)

hazewood":k1h7xsa3 said:


> Thanks Colin C for the offer, but I have my saws sorted out.
> Sorry about the late reply, I haven't been online other than to do emails.
> 
> Thanks again.
> ...



Hi Joe 
Let us know what you got :roll:  and some pic's wpld be nice


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