# A plea to all UK scrollers



## bwlossie (9 Jun 2019)

Hi guys,
I am relatively new to scrolling. This is going to be a bit of a rant so please bear with me!
I bought an ASWF18 from Axminster a few months ago.
Only had it 6 months and in that 6 months it went back to them twice. Fisrt time PCB in speed cotrol and second time they did not tell me cause. Full refund.
I then bought a Hegner Multicut 2s variable speed.
I do quite a lot of Steve Good's patterns.
He quotes 1/8" or 1/4" Baltic Birch.
Do any of you UK scrollers in UK know of a 2nd Mortgage free supplier?
I use Wickes plywood and it is absolute Carp! I use the cheapest masking tape I can find. My reasoning being that, so cheap it will not "overstick" and pull the laminations apart when removing pattern. The Wickes plywood does! It is from PRC [China]
I use reverse tooth blades but the lamination just splits off on both the top and bottom cuts. YES I am using new blades. 
Just done 2 Deer pattern in 1/4 inch [6.5mm] and it is an absolute mess.
I mix my own shellac! Do you think a coat of shellac top and bottom would help the laminations stay together? If so what sort of finish over shellac?
IMHO we really are the poor relations in UK.
Blue painters tape in UK double the price of USA.
Baltic Birch need to take out a loan for it.
Brand new Axminster Scrollsaw returned.
Are you getting the message that I am well and truely in a bad place at the moment???????
Can anyone help please?
Barry.


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## Trevanion (9 Jun 2019)

Not a scroller, but...

Go to local joinery/cabinetmaking shops and ask if they've got any spare offcuts of decent ply, guaranteed some will have some good scraps and they might even just let you have the smaller pieces, if not for free they'll be for pence.

Just get proper cheap yellow masking tape, the blue tape is rubbish and the only benefit is it's usually UV resistant so good for outdoor work and use with infrared lamps in car body spraying, even then I've never really seen it used in that side of things.

Don't listen to Americans!


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## bwlossie (9 Jun 2019)

Hi Trevanion,
I am using the cheapest "yellow" masking tape I can find but it is still pulling the top layer off the ply.
Out of interest, what sort of ply would the cabinet makers use? Too much plywood nowadays has voids in which looks terrible on the edges of cutouts.


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## Droogs (9 Jun 2019)

I get all my plywood from Meyers, they deliver to the door and sheets are 8x4'. Price varies as to qty/grade etc but less than wickes and the other sheds

hth

edit forgot link

https://meyertimber.com/products/commodities/plywood


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## bwlossie (9 Jun 2019)

Thanks Droogs,
Will have a look.
Wonder why Steve keeps specifying Baltic Birch?
Mostly Latvian and others on link.
Wierd.


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## whatknot (9 Jun 2019)

My first suggestion is to not use masking tape 

Use self adhesive labels which you can print directly onto , once cut a light wipe over with turps subs and after 30 seconds or so the remains of the pattern will come straight off usually in one piece leaving no residue 

But my next suggestion is to try another supplier for your plywood, I always bought mine from one supplier here in Cornwall, last couple of times I found they had a different quality of plywood, its very light in colour and does exactly as you describe, it flakes off at the edges, no matter what blades I use

Try and find a supplier with the darker plywood, no one seems to recognise "Baltic Birch" here, or if they do they want the price of a house to buy it 

You can buy Baltic Birch ply via ebay but again it costs a fortune


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## bwlossie (9 Jun 2019)

Hi Whatnot,
I have some shelf paper as advised by Steve Good.
Might try that then. Tight rolls at the minute so will try to press/flatten a few pieces.
As for prices, I know what you mean!


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## whatknot (9 Jun 2019)

Isn't the shelf paper just wide sellotape?

I haven't used shelf paper as I am happy using self adhesive labels, all the tapes etc seem to me to cause more work and cost more


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## bwlossie (9 Jun 2019)

Shelf paper I have is 10” wide and on long roll. Possibly about 5 meters.
Peel off the backing paper to use/stick down.
I got the clear version so hope to just print on transparent side, peel off and stick.
As long as it will print and not smear.


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## Hornbeam (9 Jun 2019)

4 and 6 mm birch is about £25 for an 8 X 4 sheet. That provides one heck of a lot of scrolling. I would suggest that when you look at how much time you are investing into a piece, the cost of birch is not that high. At the other end of the scale, cheap plywood will only be half that price but will seriously compromise the quality of your work. With virtually all the things I have bought, I may have found some things expensive, but it is the cheaper things which fail that I usually wish I had spent more on
Ian


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## whatknot (9 Jun 2019)

Its sound advice, if you can afford it


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## whatknot (9 Jun 2019)

So you still have the same problem as you would with sellotape, it adheres to the workpiece 

You can't wipe that over with turps as its not porous 

Can it be printed on? I thought it was a shiny surface ?



bwlossie":36v6o9up said:


> Shelf paper I have is 10” wide and on long roll. Possibly about 5 meters.
> Peel off the backing paper to use/stick down.
> I got the clear version so hope to just print on transparent side, peel off and stick.
> As long as it will print and not smear.


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## loftyhermes (9 Jun 2019)

Barry, Baltic birch ply is used because it as no voids, try ebay, amazon or model shops to buy from. I've never used anything but repositionable spray glue to fix the pattern to the wood, currently using the Crafters Companion one in the purple can. Spray it on the back of the pattern, sand the wood to 240, clean off the dust then fix the pattern on. The only time I've used any tape it's been clear packing tape, it's purpose is to reduce burning of the wood.


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## whatknot (9 Jun 2019)

I hear this about baltic birch, ie no voids, but all the bog standard ply I have bought up to the very recent lot have had no voids either 

The last couple of lots I have had are very light , splinter up easily and have voids, so am looking elsewhere should I need to buy ply, I try not to buy any wood if I can avoid it, I much prefer reusing timber if I can


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## powertools (9 Jun 2019)

I think you are looking at things the wrong way.
I can understand your annoyance with the problems you had with your first saw but you were given a refund that you then put towards the cost of the most overpriced saw on the planet.
It now seems that you want good results using the cheapest material on the planet that will not happen.
Wickes is a builders merchant and the ply they sell is fit for purpose, you need to accept that good results need good materials.


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## Hornbeam (9 Jun 2019)

I am sure there has been a topic on here about plywood grading systems.
I think B grade birch is the highest and is a real quality product. Most places stock BB grade which has a few small plugs but no voids or excessive surface. For smaller projects you can usually work round he plugs. Both these will sand up well on the edges with no voids and a uniform edge
At the other end the cheaper eastern plywoods and the soft wood CDX type grades have overlaps and voids in teh laminations. I have also found a much lesser bonding of teh outer face and in some cases complete delamination
Ian


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## JimiJimi (9 Jun 2019)

Hi 

I used to use masking tape religiously - I used 3M. But then I discovered temporary spray mount (it is like the sticky stuff on post it notes, only a bit stickier). It has been a revelation. You just spray it on, wait 30 seconds, and then stick the pattern to the wood. Once covered with sellotape (to lubricate the blade) it performs no differently to masking tape, except that you can easily peel it off leaving no residue at all. I use one by Crafters Companion, called Stick and Spray: Temporary Re-positional Adhesive, but there are loads of different makes. Just make sure you don't get the permanent adhesive.

As regards the plywood, I buy an 8 foot by 4 foot sheet of 15 mm birch ply for £45. I don't think that is too bad. I can make hundreds of things from that and it easily pays for itself. I buy mine from Ilkeston Ply and DIY but there are loads of merchants around the country. I choose them because they have a free cutting service so I can get it chopped into quarters to get it in the car.

Jimi


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## AES (10 Jun 2019)

As I don't live in UK I can't comment about ply costs there. What I would say is that you should look CAREFULLY all round the edges of ANY ply before you buy it. Things to look out for are:

1. The colour of the outer faces, "very white" is generally not good;
2. Are there any knots or other damage on at least one, ideally both outer faces? If so don't buy it. The fewer the better, none at all is best;
3. How many laminations? The more the better - at least 5 in a 12 mm sheet;
4. Are any of the inner laminations VERY white? If so don't buy it (it's VERY soft "filler wood");
5. Are the inner laminations regular or do you see "fill in humps"? If so don't buy it.
6. Is the board flat? If any more than slightly warped, don't buy it.

I do know for a fact that you can buy good ply (usually excellent quality in fact) from model aero shops in UK, but those are small size "sheets" and tend to be very expensive, relatively speaking. Also, if in model aero shops, do NOT buy what they call "Lite Ply". That's the stuff which has VERY white inner laminations, and the 2 outer faces are pretty soft too. NOT suitable at all for scrolling IMO.

I'm lucky enough to be able to source good quality ply from my local DIY place, but that doesn't help you of course. But what I would say is that once you've found some ply which satisfies all the above checks, you won't have any problems with splintering on cuts, nor with removing patterns. With decent ply I've used blue tape, yellow tape, parcel tape, and self-adhesive labels. None of them have created the sort of problems you describe when removing patterns.

You do of course need to make all the above checks every time you buy.

In short, not all ply is created equal so you need to do all he above checks before buying.

Above is assuming buying new of course. If sourcing your ply from old furniture (charity shops, etc) I'd still be very much inclined to make all the above checks - dunno, never done that.

HTH


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## whatknot (10 Jun 2019)

I try to reuse old wood wherever possible, old furniture, scrap from building renovations etc 

What I would say is that voids and poor grades of ply is a modern phenomenon 

I have yet to find any old ply with voids or any of the problems found in a lot of modern plywood 

Just over ten years ago I was selling plywood, and what you would call cheap plywood obtained from the cheapest possible source, it was almost all decent plywood 

I assume the scarcity of resources and modern production methods, probably using every scrap they can find is causing this modern poor plywood

I can only see the situation getting worse myself


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## bwlossie (10 Jun 2019)

Good afternoon everyone,
Thanks very much for all your replies.
Just another couple of points........
Good afternoon power tools.
I assume with a name like that you are in reality Mr Axminster.
May I humbly request that you go back and re-read my first post.
With reference the return of my AWSF18 I did acknowledge the fact that I was given a full refund.
Yes, I did put that refund to the most overpriced saw “on the planet” but that overpriced saw has not been back to the supplier.
Try to use the cheapest plywood on the planet will not give results. If you re-read I was asking for a source for better plywood. Baltic Birch! I now find I don’t need to buy better ply.
This morning I carried out a suggestion I referred to, that is coating the ply with shellac. Would you believe it actually worked. That is on the Wickes “cheapest plywood on the planet”. 
I am sorry if I offended you Mr Axminster? I did state, once again, on my original post that I was relatively new to scrolling. I am trying to learn.
Today I did learn something. Shellac both sides of the ply and that will stop tear off of the plys?
I have just found out how to see posters name.....you are not Mr Axminster. My apologies.
My comments however remain the same.


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## Claymore (10 Jun 2019)

You were very unlucky to get a duff Axminster saw, I have 2 of them one like you bought and a EX30 and both run like clockwork so surprised your was faulty, I have quite a few Axminster machines and love them all apart from the bandsaw which is not the most reliable saw and has got through 4 on/off NVR switches in 5 years its powerful enough but the dust extraction is rubbish and dust escapes around the edges of the two doors and also the frame so bad designing BUT have heard other say the same about their other brand saws. Axminster are also very good customer service and if i need a part it arrives the next day and free every time for the switches. Don't be put off by your first saw experience as you were genuinely unlucky with that one. Maybe i am Mr Axminster? :lol: regarding plywood I use it for the backboards on my Intarsias and buy it cheap from Home Hardware stores (in Scotland) its usually pretty good finish but i don't do scrolling work so cannot say how good it would be for that. I have used some MDF at times and no voids and fluffys come off with my Sand-Flee mop (diy version) as your just starting out in scrolling you do lots of trial and error and i am still learning how to use my kit but you will get hooked by it. What are you doing about dust extraction? something to sort out as early as you can before you manage to get a build up of it, i make LOADS of dust sanding hardwoods and have made a cyclone using a bouncy castle blower which sounds like a jumbo jet taking off but sucks the dust away perfect and again its trial and error until you find a piece of kit that suits yourself. There's loads of people on here who have spent years sorting their workshops out so before you start throwing your money about do plenty of research and ask as many questions as you want and hopefully it will stop you from making same mistakes many of us have done in the past. Right best shut my trap......I do tend to waffle away on subjects i am interested in so feel free to tell me to shut up i won't be offended :lol: 
Cheers
Brian (or is it Mr Axminster?) lol


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## powertools (11 Jun 2019)

bwlossie":1htfwin3 said:


> Good afternoon everyone,
> Thanks very much for all your replies.
> Just another couple of points........
> Good afternoon power tools.
> ...




I have reread your original post and my reply and I am sorry that I seem to have to offended you.
The point I was trying to make is that it does not matter how good your tools are you will struggle to get good results with poor quality materials.
Scroll sawing is just a part of my woodworking but I have to say I have never tried to spend a long time making something from construction grade ply wood it is not just the surface finish that is the problem but the voids in it.
I would be interested to know what you are using the masking tape for.
Regards
Not Mr Axminster


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## whatknot (11 Jun 2019)

Personally I do not subscribe to the notion that you can only produce something of reasonable quality if you buy the most expensive materials 

Give a shoddy workman the very best of materials with the top grade tools and they will more than likely turn out shoddy goods 

But a reasonable workman can produce perfectly acceptable items with budget tools and free or budget materials 

Granted a reasonable workman (or woman) is likely to produce better results and easier with better quality tools/materials but its not the be all and end all 

Some of us lesser mortals don't have the money to buy what has been suggested ;-)


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## powertools (11 Jun 2019)

whatknot":3k4ta4x8 said:


> Personally I do not subscribe to the notion that you can only produce something of reasonable quality if you buy the most expensive materials
> 
> Give a shoddy workman the very best of materials with the top grade tools and they will more than likely turn out shoddy goods
> 
> ...



I think you may have misunderstood my post.
I own 6 scroll saws two of them are electric powered and 4 of them are old Hobbies treadle powered saws, I think that my total investment in all of them is less £150 all being sourced second hand.
I think that skill can over come the failings of lower end tools but nothing can compensate for materials that are full of defects.
I was recently given an old sideboard that cost me nothing but had very good plywood and hard wood in it that cost me nothing.
I am in no way suggesting that anybody spends large amounts of money on their scroll saw hobby it is one part of woodworking that can be enjoyed with very little expense,


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## Claymore (11 Jun 2019)

Never tried a treadle scroll saw always wondered how smooth they are cutting, do you have to peddle like twittery or just press to cut if that makes much sense to ya? I saw one in a old house a few years ago and fancied having a go but they wouldn't let me the miserable sods lol. I got a lovely very old wardrobe last year for a tenner and the back panel was made up of 1/4" thick panels of solid wood.....not sure what type but looks like mahogany like the rest of the wardrobe.....it had some lovely fancy handles and matching feet which i stuck on ebay and sold them for £30 lol......best thing with old furniture is you don't need to season it and once its been sanded/planed up its brand new great quality wood at a fraction of the price from timber yards. 
Cheers
Brian


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## powertools (12 Jun 2019)

Claymore":3hcvtb67 said:


> Never tried a treadle scroll saw always wondered how smooth they are cutting, do you have to peddle like twittery or just press to cut if that makes much sense to ya? I saw one in a old house a few years ago and fancied having a go but they wouldn't let me the miserable sods lol. I got a lovely very old wardrobe last year for a tenner and the back panel was made up of 1/4" thick panels of solid wood.....not sure what type but looks like mahogany like the rest of the wardrobe.....it had some lovely fancy handles and matching feet which i stuck on ebay and sold them for £30 lol......best thing with old furniture is you don't need to season it and once its been sanded/planed up its brand new great quality wood at a fraction of the price from timber yards.
> Cheers
> Brian



I like to enjoy my woodworking along with a passion for old machines and that gives me an insight on how people used to do things before it became fashionable to only have the best machines.
Using a treadle scroll saw is a bit like the old joke can you rub your head with one hand and your stomach with the other, your feet are going up and down your hands are trying to follow a line and the saw is wobbling all over the place.
Scroll sawing is not something I take seriously I just like to make things that amuse the grand kids with little or no cost.
I think that if scrolling was my only hobby I would buy the ex saw but that wont happen.


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## Claymore (12 Jun 2019)

Same here i like messing with allsorts of machines and a treadle would be great up here for the power cuts lol I do have a generator incase but maybe i could power one with a treadmill and let my Rory power it lol. I was cutting up a coffee table i got a couple of years ago for £3.00 at a charity shop and remember the day i bought it the granny said who i can't sell you this as its got loads of scratches on the top....when i told her i only wanted to cut it up she gave me a right mucky look and said we aren't a scrap yard LOL and charged me £3.00 lol well its turned out to be a bargain as its got walnut frame/legs and the top looks like Mahogany which is an odd mixture but it could be a foreign one either way its nice bit of wood and will form part of a new Squirrel project.
Cheers
Brian


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## Alkeen (22 Nov 2019)

I make a tour of my local wood shops asking for any off cuts, I called in one I went to before and he told me Health and Safety had stopped outsiders climbing over the discarded wood pile. I asked him how much a 4ft by 4ft sheet 3/4 sheet would cost. £15 + vat. He said he only had a 4 by 3 which he would cost for me I saw a smaller off cut of the same thickness and asked him how much that was. He said zero put it in your car quick. He then cut the 4 x 3 in half to fit in the car. I showed him a picture of a bowl with deer on the top handle I had scrolled, which he liked. I said I would make him one as a thank you and bring it in. He was pleased and said let's call it quits then you can have this wood also free providing you bring in the bowl. We shook hands on it and I am pleased with my first commission which hopefully will open the door for more off cuts of wood of various thicknesses. 
Some of you may think why bother making it and going back as he does not know where I live. We shook hands and I reckon this Family run business could be a good source of timber and also if I give him my name and phone number to ring if he has anymore off cuts, plus people will see what I have made him and if they like it I could get people ringing me to do a project for them.


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## Honest John (6 Dec 2019)

I have bought “Baltic Birch” off the bay for reasonable cost. No idea if it is true slow grown Baltic birch, but it has been good stuff with no voids or splintering. I buy it in A5 a4 and a3 size which seems to suit any use I have for it. As others have suggested, spray mount fix for attaching paper printed patterns, and I usually use clear packing tape as a “lubricant”. I have printed onto A4 or A5 labels but it’s not really necessary, and plain paper spray mounted is my preferred pattern. Paper usually lifts off easily at the end but if required white spirit or isopropanol cleans up any paper or glue lines. If you use plywood for scrolling, then I would certainly pay more and get good stuff. It really is a game changer. You will soon forget the cost of the good stuff, but you’ll remember the problems with the carp stuff forever!


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## ScaredyCat (7 Dec 2019)

Alkeen":3l8nutvk said:


> Some of you may think why bother making it and going back as he does not know where I live.



I suspect it's because you have some integrity.


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## whatknot (7 Dec 2019)

And common sense ;-)


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