# Use of induction motors in the home workshop - updated Iss2



## 9fingers (5 Sep 2009)

I have now compiled the parts into a single document at issue 1 located here

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob.minchi ... Issue1.pdf

Mod edit: Latest version: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob.minchi ... Issue2.pdf

I have changed the title as I spotted just in time that Jim Cox has a book out with the original title I had chosen. It also is more accurate as I have concentrated on Induction Motors.


I will leave it up to the moderators to decide if it stays as a normal post, becomes a sticky or gets placed somewhere else.

I hope it will be useful.

Bob


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## devonwoody (6 Sep 2009)

Thanks for your time freely given and sure that others have the same thoughts.


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## laird (6 Sep 2009)

Great job, well done and thanks.


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## Boz62 (6 Sep 2009)

Excellent. Thankyou.

Boz


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## Steve Maskery (6 Sep 2009)

Bob
Thank you very much, that is excellent.

I have a q.

If I understand it correctly, the inverters you talk about only change SP to 3P. The input and output voltages are the same. Does this mean that, in order to run 3P, I would need a transformer to up the V from 240 to 415, then an inverter to change from SP to 3P?

Cheers
Steve


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## 9fingers (6 Sep 2009)

Steve Maskery":12adrhjm said:


> Bob
> Thank you very much, that is excellent.
> 
> I have a q.
> ...



That is certainly one route Steve but the inverter needs to be rated at 1.5 to 2 x the rating of the motor to avoid overloading the input stages of the inverter.
There are also the 'new' breed of 'converting inverters' that some of the traders are selling.
The first thing is to check to see if you have a dual voltage motor. If you have then only an inverter is needed.
Have a look at the rating plate and to be sure, whip the top off the connection box and look for the 6 terminal block as shown in figure 6 and 7.

Bob


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## Steve Maskery (6 Sep 2009)

Right, so it's possible to have a motor rated for 415V, 3P, converted to run on 240V but still 3P, running on an inverter.

Am I keeping up here? 

Cheers
Steve


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## 9fingers (6 Sep 2009)

Yup spot on track Steve.

3p is a power transmission method and theoretically it can be at any voltage.

The UK leccy board deliver it at 415 volts but a domestic inverter run on 240v input will generate 3p at 240v

If at the same time you have a motor that will accept 240 3P then all is well.

Bob


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## SemiSkilled (6 Sep 2009)

Bob,

Excellent write up, could be a classic in the making  

Thanks

Lee


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## Steve Maskery (6 Sep 2009)

What an educational week! 

I've also learned that the colour of an eggshell depends on the breed of hen, but the colour of the yolk depends on what they've been fed.

In Yorkshire they use knitting needles that stick out of their belt.

Larch can be used as soon as it is cut, it doesn't need to be seasoned.

I'll soon know everything.

Thanks very much, Bob.

Cheers
Steve


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## Tony Spear (6 Sep 2009)

9fingers":3va655qk said:


> Yup spot on track Steve.
> 
> 3p is a power transmission method and theoretically it can be at any voltage.
> 
> ...



But what about the power output? Surely if you've got a motor rated 1.5 kW at 415V, it's certainly not going to deliver that at 240V?


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## 9fingers (6 Sep 2009)

Tony Spear":907t0jnp said:


> 9fingers":907t0jnp said:
> 
> 
> > Yup spot on track Steve.
> ...



Yes it will deliver the same output because it will draw more current per phase from 230 volt see the rating plate and related text on pages 7 & 8
But it MUST be a motor designed for dual voltage (star/ delta)

Which ever way the motor is wired (star or delta) and run from 415 in star or 240 in delta , each coil gets the same voltage of 240 volts and so the motor delivers the same power.

Bob


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## dewi (6 Sep 2009)

Bob - thanks a lot - most helpful

get yourself a drink next time your near a pub :lol:


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## 9fingers (6 Sep 2009)

dewi":29dlt7b4 said:


> Bob - thanks a lot - most helpful
> 
> get yourself a drink next time your near a pub :lol:



Cheers Dewi - you are all heart! :lol: :lol: 

Bob


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## ibcallus (9 Sep 2009)

Hi Bob, 
thank you for the info it is very interesting and helpful,

Ibcallus


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## Steve Maskery (20 Sep 2009)

Bob, I know his is cheeky but here goes.

An obvious source of motors for the likes of us is a defunct washing machine or tumble dryer. They always look scary when I open them up, and I've recently taken one to the tip. I did think of trying to salvage the motor (it was the programmer, I think, that wasn't working and I've learned from experience that these things are rarely worth repairing unless you can do the job yourself).

So, say I was a complete novice at this lark but had a perfectly good WM motor at my disposal, what would I need to do to be able to use it in the workshop?

As I say, cheeky, as it is even more work for you, but you've done such an excellent job so far, it would be a shame to stop now, wouldn't it? 

Cheers
Steve


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## 9fingers (20 Sep 2009)

Steve Maskery":1nsu9uog said:


> Bob, I know his is cheeky but here goes.
> 
> An obvious source of motors for the likes of us is a defunct washing machine or tumble dryer. They always look scary when I open them up, and I've recently taken one to the tip. I did think of trying to salvage the motor (it was the programmer, I think, that wasn't working and I've learned from experience that these things are rarely worth repairing unless you can do the job yourself).
> 
> ...



Most washing machine motors a quite unsuitable for workshop applications
They run far too fast and must be used with the controller from the machine. The motors incorporate a tacho generator which supply a speed proportional signal to the controller. The controller is driven by signals from the programmer that need to be duplicated for the controller to behave properly.

The other big problem is that they are normally 'open frame' with live parts such as the brushes totally exposed which will be dangerous as well as letting sawdust get into the works.

Finally they are not continuously rated only needing to deliver full power during say 10 minutes of spinning with breaks in between.

Generally speaking the best place for them is the tip.

Sorry to dissappoint you  

Regards

Bob


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## Steve Maskery (20 Sep 2009)

I'll read that as a No then, shall I?


Thanks anyway
S


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## 9fingers (20 Sep 2009)

Steve Maskery":1sbebo3j said:


> I'll read that as a No then, shall I?
> 
> 
> Thanks anyway
> S



Yup that is correct Steve

I could have just said "no" but prefer to give reasons to increase knowledge of the subject.

Bob


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## Steve Maskery (20 Sep 2009)




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## OldWood (18 Oct 2009)

One comment I will post on is that it is not difficult to open up older 3p motors , which are typically wired for 415v in the star formation as Bob says, locate the coil ends, extract them and reconfigure as delta for 240v operation - ie join the pairs of ends together to create the triangle of coils set-up, and bring the junctions out to the junction box.

You do need to cut the lacing but it is easily replaced and painted over with shellac.

I would say in general that this is quicker and easier than fighting with a replacement motor requiring new feet, new wiring setup and a new pulley system. It was an afternoon's work on a Graduate motor and then it went straight back in - and that was a one off.

One thing about electronic inverters is that they are designed for professional business use and the instruction manuals are directed towards professional installers, add to this that the one manual may well cover sophisticated motors up to 100kW and you can see that the amateur with his basic 1kW motor is at a slight disadvantage in understanding what seems like gobble-de-gook to begin with. I would suggest that there is probably several on this site who have now gone up this learning curve and would be able to help if needs be; There is no need to spend time to re-find the wheel, so just ask!

Rob


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## 9fingers (18 Oct 2009)

OldWood":148a61k2 said:


> One comment I will post on is that it is not difficult to open up older 3p motors , which are typically wired for 415v in the star formation as Bob says, locate the coil ends, extract them and reconfigure as delta for 240v operation - ie join the pairs of ends together to create the triangle of coils set-up, and bring the junctions out to the junction box.
> 
> You do need to cut the lacing but it is easily replaced and painted over with shellac.
> 
> ...



Rob, 

Thank you for your input.

I quite agree and have taken this approach many times myself.
I thought quite hard before deciding not to include this option in my write-up on the basis that most people with the ability to perform this properly, access to high temperature insulate wires, suitable lacing cords etc and the confidence to dive into a motor to find the star point, were highly likely to know lots about motors and not need my guide.

I guess I was trying to avoid leading those with confidence but little knowledge down a path where they might ruin a motor or worse still do some damage to themselves. Less and less engineers have an appreciation of high voltages and insulation. Even graduates who I used to employ consider 3.3 volts normal and 5volts as high on the electronics they are used to working with. More and more circuitry is designed to work on 1.8 volts recently

I set out to try and explain the basic options for running 3 phase motors and some background as to why.

I'm still considering the wisdom or otherwise of a further chapter on home brewed converters. Something I build quite regularly at home for a dedicated machine not needing speed control but should I be encouraging others down this path??

I really am finding it hard to decide.

Bob


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## Steve Maskery (19 Oct 2009)

Well whatever you decide, Bob, I think this thread is very valuable. Thank you.
S


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## OldWood (19 Oct 2009)

Bob
You did very tactfully fill in one somewhat critical omission in my input - thank you. Yes, a couple of feet of high temperature wire is needed - and the insulation has to be the type that doesn't creep with pressure.

From your knowledge of motors would the silicon coated wire from Maplins with a top temperature of 180C be OK? I got some military grade wire when I did my motor. Lacing I cadged from the local motor rewinding company.

I like your comments about modern electronic engineers - as a now retired engineer of that faith, the lack of breadth of engineering knowledge in today's disciples concerns me, but then it probably did our forebears too.

Coming back to your article, I would leave it in it's excellent form, and let addendums like mine be taken up by the more adventurous if they wish. Don't over egg the more than adequate cake!

Rob


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## 9fingers (19 Oct 2009)

Rob,

The silicon(e) cable from Maplins looks fine to me if horribly expensive!
The silicone rubber will be quite soft so don't lace it in too tight. I use adhesive lined heatshrink sleeves to protect the connections into the windings.

However, there is some high temperature 3 core cable sold for use between an immersion heater and the wall outlet. I'd be tempted to try this and strip out the inner cores. Rather bad practise to use the green and yellow for one of the phases but I won't tell if you don't!! 

The cable is 3039Y and in 1.5mm^2 should be about a pound a metre in cut lengths from electrical suppliers.

Thanks for your kind words about my article.

Bob


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## dickm (19 Oct 2009)

There is a source on the 'bay that sells all sorts of rewinding-type wire, in various quantities. Dunno if that would be better than Maplins (whose staff, to my mind, are one step even further down from PC World's in terms of lack of knowledge)


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## dannykaye (20 Dec 2009)

someone asked about step up transformers to convert 240v to 415v.

three phase is three sets of live wires out of phase with each other, if you take one phase and measure the rms voltage with respect to earth (neutral is just earth) you will measure 240v there is no need for step up or down. i.e the 415v is the same just measured in a different way


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## 9fingers (21 Dec 2009)

dannykaye":2o70rcq4 said:


> someone asked about step up transformers to convert 240v to 415v.
> 
> three phase is three sets of live wires out of phase with each other, if you take one phase and measure the rms voltage with respect to earth (neutral is just earth) you will measure 240v there is no need for step up or down. i.e the 415v is the same just measured in a different way




There are nevertheless applications for a 240/440 transformer and they are made. But it should be understood that stepping up from single phase 240v to 440v only produces single phase power at a higher voltage.
It is but the first stage in a converter used in combination with other components to run 3 phase motors from a single phase 240v supply. See figure 24 and 25 in my paper.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob.minchi ... Issue1.pdf

Bob


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## Willis (1 Jan 2010)

really good, I shall keep that safe and refer as and when needed

thank you


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## Jonzjob (8 Feb 2010)

Blimey Bob, that takes me back to my yoof when I was in the Boy Entrants learning to be an aircraft elleky in the R.A.F.

Very informative and more important understandable for a near novice, I think so anyway?

It reminded me of the method of reversing a single phase induction motor too! I am on he lookout for a motor to replace my drill for power sanding on my lathe and I had forgotten the reversal method, so big ta!


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## 9fingers (8 Feb 2010)

Glad you found it useful.

Bob


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## 9fingers (17 May 2010)

Following on from a thread that has identified a potential problem with a single phase motor, I have now added Annex F to my motor document.

The updated version can be found here

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob.minchi ... Issue2.pdf


Or by using the link in my signature below.

Thanks to Graeme for raising the issue and providing some photos.

Bob


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## GraemeD (20 May 2010)

Nice update Bob.....glad I could help!
Graeme


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## dickm (20 May 2010)

Superb piece of work, Bob. I wish the guys who used to write this sort of stuff for me had been half as clear


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## 9fingers (20 May 2010)

Thanks for your kind comments gents.

I guess years of working in research has taught me how to put information in a form that non engineers can appreciate. It was vital to be able to communicate with business people to secure future funding.

Bob


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## jack (5 Aug 2010)

Hi 9 fingers, interesting reading, and it answered a question that i was looking for an answer to, nvr 3 phase swith on 1 phase supply ,
great stuff


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## 9fingers (5 Aug 2010)

Hi Jack,

Glad to hear you found it helpful.

Thanks for taking the trouble to post about it.

Good Luck

Bob


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## jack (6 Aug 2010)

Hi Bob a wee query for you.
i have a double nvr switch for saw table,, the main saw is 3p and the scoring motor i assume is 1p as there is the standard wiring 3core from the dual switch to it , colours blue , brown, green yellow, which i assume i lne.
I also have an l1,l2,l3 going to the maim motor which is 3p.
ow i am assuming that the nvr switch for the scoring blade is 240v
, is there a possibility that the nvr switch relay, may aslo be rated at 240 with the 240 v being taken from the 3p feed, from either l1. l2 or l3 and the neutral?
or am i talking pants


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## 9fingers (6 Aug 2010)

Hi Jack,

The main NVR could have either a 240 or 400v coil. The machine manufacturer could have specified either. I'd guess at 400 being more common but I have not worked on a saw with a scoring blade before.

Usually the NVR has a label, maybe inside the box which may help. Also the coil itself, which may be fairly well buried should be marked with its operating voltage.

Finally you could trace the route of the neutral wire inside and see if it is even connected to the main motor NVR.

hth

Bob


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## antonello (31 Aug 2010)

I did use this inverter 240/415 3P








to feed this machine






I installed it about a year ago, everything seems to go well, for now......

Here

http://legnowood.globalfreeforum.it/vie ... ?f=14&t=58

downloading this pdf document

*Alimentazione di una combinata trifase tramite inverter*

more detailed information are available....... but in Italian..... sorry.

Cheers

Antonello


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## tisdai (10 Oct 2010)

Thanks for the info Bob, great of you to post it here for everyone

Dave


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## Geofrey (14 Aug 2011)

Well I am new on the forum and my first place to stop is here. Very great work. Thanks.


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## 9fingers (14 Aug 2011)

Thanks Geofrey and welcome to the forum.

One thing to bear in mind is that power distribution is a bit different in the US than in UK/Europe so some of the voltages will seem a bit strange.
I've not managed to get my head around how it is done in the US - I'm just aware that it is different. One day I must put in the effort to understand how it is done on your side of the pond.
So many things to learn and so little time!!

Good luck

Bob


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## waveman2010 (29 Oct 2011)

Any one not wishing a nerdy comment stop reading but here goes. The single to 3 phase inverter will still deliver 240v per phase but only if referenced to a neutral point (that's why its called a neutral). between the phases it will be delivering 415V. what the inverter actually does is to split the 240 supply into three and then shift them 120 deg out of phase with each other, imagine 3 sine waves all peaking at different times. If you add all three voltages together at any one point on the cycles you get 415V. The current drawn from the 240V supply is distributed across the three phases in the machine itself but as Geofrey points out in his excellent artical you don't get something for nothing and the inverters them selves will draw a significant current. The actual voltage across the machine windings is very small held back by the generation effect of the motor all the torque being delivered by current. This is why machines burn when they are overloaded the speed is reduced so far that the back voltage its called the back EMF, does not balance the winding voltage far enough and the resulting rise in current heats up the machine. this effect can damage machines on start up so the star delta starter system manages the start up voltages till the motor is up to speed. The newer soft start starters use still more devices similar to the inverters to limit the power taken by a machine on start up. Hope this was of interest to anyone with a liking for AC power systems.... mmmmmmm.


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## Jonzjob (29 Oct 2011)

That is all true for star wound, but delta still has an output of 240v and no neutrals :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Mine's delta :roll:


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## karl530 (23 Dec 2011)

Hi Bob,

There is a wealth on knowledge in this thread and in you own articles, I Have a question pertaning to phase converter design.
In most of the circuits I have seen when there is a need to step-up the voltage (240V to 415) a autotransformer has been employed for this job. Looking at the cost an autotransformer is about 3x more than a equivalent kva isolation transfomer. Would it possible to use an isolation unit in place on the auto unit? 

Regards Karl


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## 9fingers (23 Dec 2011)

Hi Karl,

I'd be interested in seeing the prices that you base your comments on

I have not found 415/240 isolating transformers cheaply with any useful power rating for this application.

Auto transformers are use in converters as they are cheaper to make for a given power - less copper used

A simple 240 in 240 out transformer can be wired to be an auto transformer but the voltage will be too high at 480v. You might find one with a tapped secondary to get nearer 440v which will be the maximum for the motor.
Another trick is to get two 240 in 110v out safety transformers. wire the secondaries in series, and the primaries in parallel in phase. You MUST never connect the earth to either transformer which is no problem with the plastic cased ones. You then put the two series outputs in series with the primaries making sure once again that the phasing is correct. This provides 460v from 240 which is still a bit high but if you mains supply is nearer 220 or 230 then the output is almost correct.

It does not matter how you get the voltage step up as long as it is roughly in the ratio 1:sqrt3 or about 1:1.73

If your motor is capable of delta connection for 240v 3 phase operation then the converter becomes trivial as no transformer is needed.

Bob


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## karl530 (23 Dec 2011)

Hi Bob,

That was a speedy reply! I based my price on those given on the airlink transformer website, but upon closer inspection I have realised it was torodial transformers I was looking at not enclosed isolation units d'oh! The transformers I have been looking at are below 

AU5004 - Enclosed Autowound transformers Part number:	AU5004 £212
VA:	5000
Input vac:	415
Output vac:	230
Regulation:	0%
Case:	P4 Grey Steel case IP23
Dimensions:	Ht:270 L: 338 W:215 (mm) Weight:	20kg
Surge protection:	SL35 Surge protection
Type:	Autowound transformer Conforms to EN61558-2-13 CE & RoHS
Input Termination:	3 M6 studs
Input notes	This an autotransformer and may be used to stepup or stepdown

Not that badly priced just that the primary and secondarys are in 'reverse' for the application needed which I am not sure if that matters but there is a not saying it is step up or down.

Also the below which is a chassis mount type torodial.

CM5000176 - Standard Range Toroidal Transformers Part number:	CM5000176 £180
VA:	5000
Input vac:	415 Input current amps:	21.70
Output vac:	230 Output current amps:	21.70
Regulation:	3%
Dimensions:	OD: 240 Ht: 110mm Weight:	22kg
Type:	Safety Isolating transformer Conforms to EN61558-2-23 CE & RoHS
Input Termination:	200mm Flexible leads 14awg
Output Termination:	200mm Flexible leads 14awg
Fixings:	Fixing Potted centre Drilled 10mm 

The reason I ask these questions is because I have a whitehead 2.5hp 415 table saw and a oliver 415v RAS but the motor HP is unkown on the oliver, my guess 3 or 4hp. I have seen a 240v to 415v VFD but I have been lead to believe that they are 'custom' modified units. As they are the same in appearance as the teco 7200 ma series but as far as I can tell no units offering the above voltage increase exist on their website.

Regards Karl


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## 9fingers (23 Dec 2011)

The prices look a lot closer than 3 :1 but anyway

Sounds like you have been looking at inverters from Drives Direct. Provided the modified inverter is rated around twice the output that you need, the modified inverters should work OK. I've modified a few recently myself and they seem to work oK but I've yet to give them a thorough testing.

If you want to go down the converter route, then adding a motor to make a rotary converter should enable it to run either of your machines.

Bob


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## karl530 (23 Dec 2011)

9fingers":3tax8az7 said:


> The prices look a lot closer than 3 :1 but anyway
> 
> Sounds like you have been looking at inverters from Drives Direct. Provided the modified inverter is rated around twice the output that you need, the modified inverters should work OK. I've modified a few recently myself and they seem to work oK but I've yet to give them a thorough testing.
> 
> ...



They are closer than 3:1 it's get to late for me to think straight and I have been trying to get my head round the most suitable way to power these machines, I have spoken to David at drives direct, I got the impression that the VFD was ok to be matched to the maximum motor HP so for the RAS if it is indeed 3HP then a 3HP drive would be ok (bit it is an unkown at the moment, so it would be prudent to overate the unit driving it anyway), though I assume it would be running to the max capability of the drive. 

The main factor for me though is the costs involved, i reckon I can build a RPC for alot less than a VFD would cost. 
Out of the 2 transformer mentioned in my last post, is one more suitable for a phase converter than the other?

Sorry about all the questions!

Karl


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## 9fingers (23 Dec 2011)

Either transformer would do the job for your RPC. Might as well go for the cheapest. 

I reckon that if an inverter is modified for voltage conversion, it should be de-rated - usually by around 2:1

Dave guarantees his products so you should have some comeback if it does not work as expected.
He does mark up the prices for his voltage conversion mods because he can. The change is nothing special, it is just a case of changing the rectifier configuration to a voltage doubler. The derating is necessary as the reservoir is topped up less frequently than with a three phase input. If you add further capacitors to the reservoir bank then no de-rating should be needed.

Bob


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## drmartin1981 (4 Jan 2012)

Hi Bob,

I'm currently using a JET band saw with an induction motor on it, Im a novice with reguards to motors so found your write up very informative and helpful in understanding exactly what I'm using. 

Im happy with the performance of the induction motor!


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## 9fingers (4 Jan 2012)

drmartin1981":xycignwn said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> I'm currently using a JET band saw with an induction motor on it, Im a novice with reguards to motors so found your write up very informative and helpful in understanding exactly what I'm using.
> 
> Im happy with the performance of the induction motor!



Thanks for taking the trouble to post.

If you get any future problems with induction motors, just give me a shout and I'll try and sort out a solution.

Bob


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## Retired (25 Jun 2012)

Hi,

What a great thread Bob; very useful and informative indeed and many thanks for going to the trouble to add it.

It brings back many memories for me seeing the Brook Crompton nameplate. I worked for this company (Brook Motors) here in Huddersfield for 24 years up to my early retirement in 2000. At the height of production we manufactured over 1,000 motors through No5 Home Trade Despatch and around 300 motors through No6 Export per day.

The company had a number of manufacturing facilities in the UK; Honley and Doncaster factories supplied small or fractional HP motors; the main factory and headquarters where I worked at St Thomas Road in Huddersfield and our Electrodrives factory in the Midlands supplied medium sized motors and the Guiseley factory supplied the big motors. Bull in Ipswich supplied the DC motors.

No5 Despatch became the main distribution hub; motors would arrive from the other factories and be consolidated into loads. Motors with gearboxes fitted; motors with inverters fitted; spares and repairs all came from across the road from our other departments; control gear came from the Wakefield factory.

My job was to ensure everything was in place ready for the night loaders and boy it was a stressful job; I lived and breathed electric motors 365 days a year as I couldn't switch off; in the end I came down with shingles and this was the sign to call it a day whilst I still could; I volunteered for redundancy and took my works pension retiring from active conflict aged 53 in 2000. 

Unfortunately like many UK companies Brook's phased out manufacturing in the UK moving this abroad; the company is now a distribution centre having a large well stocked warehouse and customers can still have any motor modified quickly to order.

I don't wish to hi-jack your excellent thread Bob but since retiring I've been even more busy and one job I have done is to install 3 phase 415V up to 10HP in our garage allowing me to run single or multiple machines up to the 10HP. These machines can be switched on and off just as if proper 3 phase had been laid on. I hope you are sitting down because not only does this give full power but it only cost me just under £120 for the entire installation. One guy I know wanted to have 3 phase 415V installed into his two farmhouses to power heat pumps in Wales and the local supply company quoted him over £17,000. As a new member to this forum I'd like to settle in before adding all the details in a new thread as I might need to gain permission to add an important link.

This is the best write up on motors I've seen Bob and top marks to you.

Kind regards, Col.


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## devonwoody (26 Jun 2012)

Welcome to the forum and I and others look forward to having your experience here, and also wish you a happy retirement.


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## Retired (26 Jun 2012)

Hi,

Many thanks for your welcome and good wishes devonwoody; they are much appreciated. For the last ten years I've been collecting and restoring vintage radios but now I am having a good clear out and want to concentrate on furniture/cabinetmaking for our own use. I've just completed a new computer desk and hopefully will add this shortly.

Kind regards, Col.


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## Camoz (2 Sep 2012)

Hi,

Just wanted to say great post a wealth of knowledge.

Thanks,

Camoz


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