# Easiest Blade and Chisel Sharpening



## bp122 (11 Oct 2019)

Before I'll be judged for mentioning the word "easy", I do not mean it in terms of effort required. It is to understand what works for most people in my shoes (hobby woodworker, beginner, use hand tools as much as possible and not rely on machine tools) to keep their hand planes and chisels sharp for long, without having to spend most of the available woodworking time sharpening the tools and not being able to do anything with it!

I understand there are about 14 million types of products for sharpening (hyperbole is a casual concern!) blades and chisels. 

1. Diamond plates: Reviews on websites (amazon or ebay or even axminster) are very hard to rely on - as some mention the diamond plates working well (but have not used it for long enough to have a valid opinion) the others mention that the diamond has eroded away (despite buying their best range of plates)

2. I also wonder if I should consider a bench grinder to do most of the rough work and use a fine sandpaper and strop to finish it off.

3. Or go Paul Sellers route and use three grits of sandpaper and then a strop on a hard flat surface - which sounds very simple and cheap at first, but it could also be false economy if need to sharpen the bits arise more frequently.

Too many options, way too many opinions and no closer to a solution!

Please share your experience to a beginner in me!


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## nev (11 Oct 2019)

bp122":1j45tspy said:


> ....
> Too many options, way too many opinions and no closer to a solution!
> 
> ....



And you're asking for more!

Use the advance search facility above for any and all sharpening methods and save the members who's method of sharpening is better than anyone else's arguing with each other. 
Again.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Oct 2019)

Oh. how I miss BugBear's little popcorn eating gif.


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## Ttrees (11 Oct 2019)

IMO It depends on what you wish to do with them.
Do you wish to lap the backs of old plane irons that's really pitted?
Then you need a flat plate and sandpaper to flatten and polish the back of the irons....
Or start with those cheap aggressive credit card diamond hones that ED65 advises, and put them on, or glue'em on a flat surface, and work through the grits, you could get many as they are very cheap, like a few quid each.

Are you going to use a honing guide for the bevel?
A diamond hone will not wear like a oil/water stone will if you are using one, makes sense if your just using one to get to know what sharp is.
The diamond hones are handy for taking inconsistencies out of the equation, 
A lump on your stone might drive you nuts if your working on fettling the cap iron to mate up with the iron.
For instance a flat honed iron cant be just rubbed on a dead flat surface with the end result being flat...it needs to be hollowed slightly with technique like honing off the stone.

I still think Ultex diamond hones are really good value if they're still on half price offer, much cheaper than the equivalent
Faithfull hones that are also bonded to a hefty nickel plate.
Don't think there is any ebay/ali express/banggood hones bonded to a nickel steel plate, but I could be mistaken. 
Thats what I would get if I had the mula, as the chunky diamond hones are less faff.

In my experience, the diamonds wont shear off, unless you are working up the sides of a plane iron and are not aware of whats going on.
Or you are lapping oil or water stones .

I would look for a washita if you go to markets for your bevel work in future.
I like to use an oilstone before the diamond hone I have which is a good bit finer than the Ultex ones,
Although if you use the Ultex for lapping a plane iron or two it would get a lot finer, and probably not be very fast anymore
which will give a better polish to your irons eventually.

Tom


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## lurker (11 Oct 2019)

Why do people use the term "sandpaper" can you actually buy genuine sandpaper these days?


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## Jarno (11 Oct 2019)

I use waterstones, about 15euro on Aliexpress, works fine, I have a 1000/4000. And recently bought a 5000/10000 stone and a 240/400. You'll also need a stone to flatten them.


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## Osvaldd (11 Oct 2019)

I started with abrasive paper, I wish I went straight for those cheap diamond plates. they are great.


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## Trevanion (11 Oct 2019)

phil.p":2n7s52o9 said:


> Oh. how I miss BugBear's little popcorn eating gif.









I've begun shifting away from waterstones, diamond plates and about every other method of sharpening towards natural oilstones, dead easy to use and very quick once you've got a bit of free-hand technique going. Not to sound like Jacob of course! :lol:


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2019)

Easiest, cheapest, quickest by far, is trad oil stone, free hand, as used by everybody, everywhere, probably as far back as the stone age!
There's no money in it for tool dealers (stones last for years - usually life) so they tell you it's difficult and try to sell you a lot of 'helpful' gadgets and other alternatives.
The vogue kicked off big time relatively recently. Gadgets have always been around for the amateur "gentleman' woodworker but very uncommon, even 50 years ago.
PS you can make your own gadgets for little blades hard to hold, such as this one post1311591.html?hilit=paraphernalia#p1311591


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## samhay (11 Oct 2019)

bp122":24ngy5i9 said:


> ...
> 3. Or go Paul Sellers route and use three grits of sandpaper and then a strop on a hard flat surface - which sounds very simple and cheap at first, but it could also be false economy if need to sharpen the bits arise more frequently.



I thought he was an advocate of diamond plates, which are low maintenance and certainly don't need flattening (no idea how you'd sharpen them). 
For what little it's worth, they are my recommendation.


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## D_W (11 Oct 2019)

6" grinder with any decent rest, and one or two stones. That's it. 

The grinder should do the heavy work, if you're using two stones, the first should raise a wire and the second should refine what the first has done, working only the back and biasing a slightly higher angle than the first stone on the bevel side so as only to work a tiny amount. 

Freehand.

It really doesn't matter what the stone is if using two stones, but a single medium diamond stone and a fine oilstone make a great combination. If you're limited to one stone, something like a (real) washita is a good choice. 

My cycle time with any kind of plane iron (alloyed or not) is about 1 1/2 minutes total. Chisels are less. It takes very little time to master this method, and since you're biasing stones toward only the edge of the blade, you'll eliminate the problem that most people probably have with sharpening - failure to leave a uniform edge at the very tip because they are working steel that doesn't need to be worked. 

This doesn't need to be an expensive or difficult process, nor one where the items used need all kinds of maintenance and care. Just keep dirt from settling on the stones, use lubricant once in while if they've loaded or to prevent them from loading and avoid gimmicks (like diamond honing fluid or water based rust preventer or any of that other idiotic stuff).

The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it. 

As you're getting used to the method, sharpen twice as often as you think you need to. It'll get you repetitions, and also show the value of using sharp tools and double your chance of working with them in case every other repetition is flawed. 

if you manage to chase your final bevel steep one way or another, refresh the grind and continue on.


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2019)

I'd agree with D_W 
Popular alternative stone is the Norton India double sided. It does need freshening up often - something to remove embedded bits n bobs. I use a coarse 3m diapad because I happen to have one, but other things will do it.
A magnet is good for removing swarf and they do need flooding with oil, not just a trace.
Stones don't ever need flattening if you use them properly - spread the load. A bit of a dip is fine as blades need a camber anyway.
PS an easy system improves the quality of work and the pleasure in doing it. Nothing worse than having to stop and fiddle about with an expensive jig covered in brass knobs and a users' manual. OK you will get it sharp but you will be put off repeating the operation to keep it sharp. The worst problem with jigs is that they only work on flat stones - hence the frequent mention of "stone flattening", a tedious and wasteful operation which otherwise is simply not necessary.
PS I forgot to say - if you are beavering away planing surfaces, chopping mortices, getting a job done etc sharpening needs to be quick and easy like sharpening a pencil for an artist, so you can keep going (and keep sharp) without too much interruption. Trad sharpening does just that.


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## Rich C (11 Oct 2019)

D_W":3nyks8in said:


> The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it.


Howso?


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## Ttrees (11 Oct 2019)

My oil stone is only getting flat now, and finally becoming easier to get the camber I need.
Might be drifting off topic here, but its happened already.
After all it is a sharpening thread  

Very difficult to get a tiny camber for zero tearout performance quickly on interlocked timbers, don't know if it would be possible with a jig on any diamond hone or stone.
Try getting speedy repeatable results on a stone with a dish or high spot, you won't be able to, if you intend to have a perfect camber of a 64th of an inch or even less if the timber is not cooperative at that setting.
Talking smoother settings here, and not a moderate cap iron setting between a 32nd and 64th of an inch on the same timbers if you have a stock that's not somewhat close to finished dimentions.

And back to what's probably more relevant to the OP's question again.
I wouldn't want to be starting off without a flat stone or whatever, as it would make fettling the cap iron a nightmare
You have to know what your mistakes are, and that's no help if you can't figure out if its your technique or other factors that is the culprit
of a non mating cap iron.
Therefore I think the diamond stone is the winner by a long shot for said reasons, but also because the OP might not have space in the shed to have a dedicated place for stones....yet! 
I like to have my setup two steps away from the work, and in an unorganised workflow or small space might get knocked onto the ground.

Never used a magnet for swarf as I never seen a wire edge left on my washita or soft arkansas.
Do you use both sides of the India stone Jacob?
I don't think I've ever heard anyone else mention this, sounds interesting.

Tom


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Oct 2019)

Do you use both sides of the India stone Jacob?
I don't think I've ever heard anyone else mention this, sounds interesting.


It isn't. It's groundhog day.


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## Ttrees (11 Oct 2019)

I should have been clearer...it was the magnet I was referring to...
Ever heard of anyone else doing this yourself Phil.P?
Interesting to me anyways
Tom


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## Jacob (11 Oct 2019)

Ttrees":18rmueav said:


> My oil stone is only getting flat now, and finally becoming easier to get the camber I need.


Mine all started out flat but tend to become dished, which makes camber easier, whether you want it or not


> .
> Very difficult to get a tiny camber for zero tearout performance quickly on interlocked timbers,


Why?


> don't know if it would be possible with a jig on any diamond hone or stone.


I expect it would, why not?


> Try getting speedy repeatable results on a stone with a dish or high spot, you won't be able to, if you intend to have a perfect camber of a 64th of an inch or even less if the timber is not cooperative at that setting.


Why not?
PS I've never had a stone with a high spot - how could that come about?


> Talking smoother settings here, and not a moderate cap iron setting between a 32nd and 64th of an inch on the same timbers if you have a stock that's not somewhat close to finished dimentions.


Er - what are you on about?


> And back to what's probably more relevant to the OP's question again.
> I wouldn't want to be starting off without a flat stone or whatever, as it would make fettling the cap iron a nightmare


You only need to fettle a cap iron once in the life of a plane if necessary at all


> You have to know what your mistakes are,


true


> Therefore I think the diamond stone is the winner by a long shot for said reasons,


Didn't quite follow that


> .....
> I like to have my setup two steps away from the work, and in an unorganised workflow or small space might get knocked onto the ground.


Careful!


> Never used a magnet for swarf as I never seen a wire edge left on my washita or soft arkansas.


Where does it go then? How does it get off the stone? n.b. swarf and wire edge two different things - the latter can get embedded, hence the occasional stone surface fettle. The magnet means you can use less oil - it keeps it clean.


> Do you use both sides of the India stone Jacob?


Fine side all the time until the rare occasion when not near a powered grindstone and need to grind


> I don't think I've ever heard anyone else mention this, sounds interesting.
> Tom


Er - that's what the coarse side is for, surely everybody knows that!
Phew! Not entirely sure what Ttrees is on about by and large - I think he's got the sharpening bug. You should have a look at knife sharpening enthusiast stuff - it's even more carried away!


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## Ttrees (12 Oct 2019)

Fine if you want to slave away resharpening scrapers or using them on flat surfaces, or like sanding and the mess and expense.
That's all too much like hard work for me to do it though, as scrapers don't last long in hard stuff.

I will be about to find out just how hard it is to keep the stone flat now, so will give you an update.
I'll bet you can't wait  

Still doubt a honing guide would be able to give the camber I want which has no room for errors.

High spot, low spot = tomato/tomato, probably came from sharpening lawnmower blades (most likely)

I don't like tearout, its messy.

Agreed, once is enough if you can get it right in the first place. definitely a plus since something like the 1700's.

Agreed then.

Must you dislike all of these new fangled advances in technology Jacob, thought I seen you make use of an induction motor not so long ago... I think it was a lathe... Sacrilege I say  

I try to be careful Jacob, but I've got an angry wolf who want's to use my no.5 1/2

I've never seen or very rarely seen the wire edge on anything apart from a chisel I made from spring steel that was like tinfoil.
I do use a spray oil with straw, and maybe that pushes the wire edge off.
I must admit I do waste a lot of oil to the shavings bunch, but its getting much less wasteful now my stone is flatter.

It nearly sounds like an India stone is quite porous and holds embedded swarf, but am reminded that you use a lot of force compared to
other folk.
I'd love to try one.
I tried using force before and it hurt me chops a lot...
Luckily I got a bench grinder after that.

I'll admit, I'm close to having a problem...
_Just one last stone, I swear_


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## ED65 (12 Oct 2019)

bp122":12a16rjj said:


> ...without having to spend most of the available woodworking time sharpening the tools and not being able to do anything with it!


This is partly a matter of experience and skill and not so much about the method used. Every method is capable of achieving good, great or stellar edges in just a few minutes in the hands of an experienced user who doesn't waste time doing unnecessary steps. 

When doing a simple touch up it's quite possible for a plane iron to be going back into the plane in under 40 seconds if all your ducks are in a row and you didn't leave the honing interval too long. Honing is not a race though, I mention this just so you have a realistic view of how fast you _can _do it. That's not to say it's how fast you should be doing it now, or at any point in the future. Don't beat yourself up if you hone slower than some other random dudes.

On to your number points.

1. Yes. Diamonds are the fastest honing surface, period. They have much else to recommend them including that they'll hone anything, even tungsten carbide, so no steel is too tough which may become important to you later. See below about durability.

2. Yes on the grinder _eventually_, no on the abrasive paper, yes on the strop if you like to strop and it gives an improvement. 

3. This isn't the Paul Sellers route. It's one he showed only. Sorry don't mean to land on you but I'm tired of stuff Mr. Sellers merely demonstrates becoming linked with him. Although admittedly this is sometimes because he actually calls it his method :twisted: Paul Sellers's normal method is actually diamond plates, a succession of three, followed by heavy stropping.

Anyway, day-to-day sharpening (honing) here's my recommendation: your-cheapest-honing-setup-buying-new-only-t102548.html As I've referred to in a couple of threads recently, that plate looks pretty much the same now. So I'd say it's holding up quite well given I've used it almost exclusively for the entire time since then.

There are loads of stones that work. In common with a lot of members I have a good handful picked up over the years. I like some, not others. I could happily ditch all of them, but I wouldn't be without diamond plates. You really only need two, one _very _coarse and one fine. I use 150 and 1,000 myself and they work well as a combo, despite the seemingly far-too-large gap in the grits. 

So back to grinders, you don't absolutely need one. Many people function without one permanently. Excluding other workshop task unrelated to sharpening, and assuming you don't rely on a hollow grind to register your edges for honing, a grinder is most useful for edge repair which should be quite rare for your own tools! Obviously this does make one very useful for prepping abused edges on stuff from car boots etc. which are frequently in a sorry state. So if you're periodically or regularly acquiring stuff secondhand this is a good reason to have one; it's the main reason I got a grinder (a cheapie from Lidl BTW) not for sharpening my existing stuff. I have never needed to grind the edge on a new tool. I practically never grind an existing tool; in four or five years I've used a grinder on one of my main-sequence tools maybe two or three times, and one of those was due to a chipped corner from a drop to a concrete floor.


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2019)

Ttrees":cg5sro0m said:


> ........
> I'll admit, I'm close to having a problem...
> _Just one last stone, I swear_


 :lol: 
I've got a lot too - can't ignore the obsessive ranting that comes from sharpening circles - they might be on to something!
In the end I realised that what they _were _on to was the holy grail of being able to finish _everything/anything_ with plane and chisel only, no sanding/scraping/filling/tear out. In other words often (not always) impossible, or not worth the candle, in the real world. But a laudable objective!
Ended up with this set up which is all I use nearly all the time. 



2nd hand Norton stone, nearly new on the fine side, deeply hollowed on the coarse side - previous owner a lumberjack?
diapad and magnet for cleaning
tin of oil. Actually has a history -was a free sample of Honerite (the well known fluid more expensive by volume than a fine malt whisky) kindly given to me to try out. Worked OK. So does spit (as would whisky, HP Sauce, cat-water, name your fluid). Saved the tin which I top up with 3in1 oil and white spirit. Pin hole in the top makes it a squeezy bottle for little squirts.
strop. bit of leather stuck to bit of ply. About 50 years old I remember buying it we were into leather goods briefly.
oily rag - every home should have one
board, with stops to locate it on the bench and stop the stone from being pushed off


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## sammy.se (12 Oct 2019)

Are those coloured diamond plates you see in Screwfix , Wickes etc any good?

I must admit, I use Paul seller's sand paper method because I'm daunted by all the stone/plate options.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2019)

sammy.se":38wmtbij said:


> .. I'm daunted by all the stone/plate options.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


If I was going to recommend one stone it'd probably be this https://www.manomano.co.uk/catalogue/p/ ... on-1388826
which was more or less bog standard (or variations, other brands) before the sharpening craze kicked off.
PS One stone would last for life for ordinary woodwork purposes, as long as you don't get into the crackpot fashion for flattening everything!


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## thetyreman (12 Oct 2019)

the diamond plates are worth it, I got them very early on and saw them as a long term investment, it's great because I've never needed another system, just buy coarse medium and fine stones mount them in some plywood or solid wood, make a strop and you're good to go, it works.


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## guineafowl21 (12 Oct 2019)

Board with a strip glued underneath so I can clamp it in the vice.

On the board is an Axminster Rider 400 and 1000 grit diamond plate (double-sided). Also glass cleaner, rag, strip of shoe leather stapled on, and a green buffing compound stick. Nearby is a small blade holder (flat stick with slot in it).

Sharpen as per Paul Sellers.

Want to refurbish old chisels, or flatten abused plane soles? Wrap some decent AlOx paper round the diamond plate, say 120, then 240.

This system works, and is not expensive. It also gets used to sharpen kitchen and butchery knives. You may find yourself wishing you’d brought it with you when invited round to friends’ houses, and are asked to help carve the roast (how do people put up with using such hopelessly blunt knives?)


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## nabs (12 Oct 2019)

bp122 it honestly isn't as complicated as the internet makes it appear 

My advice, as a fellow beginner, is that If you don't have access to someone who can show you how to do it then this video series on sharpening is comprehensive, straight forward and easy to follow:

https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/sh ... and-tools/

£26 well spent if it means you can escape the maddening world of internet sharpening debates (you can easily spend several times that amount on sharpening paraphernalia that you will never use - I did!)

Having said that, if you'd rather save the money, his advice is essentially the same as D_W and jacob above: for most jobs he just uses a couple of oil stones (one rough and one smooth, or a single stone with two sides) and sharpens free hand. It doesn't take long to get the hang of it.


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## sammy.se (12 Oct 2019)

So I needn't worry about flattening the stones? I see YouTubers rub stones together, presumably to make them flat?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## guineafowl21 (12 Oct 2019)

Not if it’s a diamond plate. You buy a chisel. You buy a stone to sharpen the chisel. You buy a flattener to flatten the stone... I don’t know why she swallowed a fly, perhaps she’ll die.


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## sammy.se (12 Oct 2019)

Thanks  
I do like it when things are made simple!

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2019)

guineafowl21":1b3a2i3h said:


> Not if it’s a diamond plate. You buy a chisel. You buy a stone to sharpen the chisel. You buy a flattener to flatten the stone... I don’t know why she swallowed a fly, perhaps she’ll die.


Except you don't need to flatten the stone. I did one once out of curiosity but there was no particular advantage. I've also had newish flat stones but the slow development of a hollow is no prob.
It's all part of the modern sharpening mythology, except jigs don't work on hollow stones, which is one very good reason for not using a jig, rather than wasting time (and stone) by flattening them.
PS or to put it another way - we were shown how to sharpen in woodwork classes at school (circa 1956). Didn't do much woodwork for years. Went around the houses but ended up doing it as per school - because it's easiest, quickest, cheapest, etc etc. Didn't appreciate it then, do now 60 years later!


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## Rich C (12 Oct 2019)

I use three diamonds stones and a strop. It works fine. For rehabilitating ebay tools I use 60-120 grit paper on top of a stone then the diamond stones as usual. It seems to work.


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## sammy.se (12 Oct 2019)

My only problem with free hand sharpening is that I always end up with a curved bevel, and I am not consistent with the angle, I end up blunting the blades on the higher grit, so it takes forever.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Woody2Shoes (12 Oct 2019)

+1 for diamonds - I see no point using anything less tough. I've had excellent results over a couple of years with the Ultex stones e.g.: https://www.its.co.uk/pd/210082-8''-x-3 ... 210082.htm
They sometimes sell them even cheaper than this on promotion - although it looks like they're currently out of stock on this particular one.

I also sometimes use wet and dry (body shops use very fine grits - so look at Halfords or online) paper on a scrap piece of granite.

I use a CBN wheel for sharpening turning chisels.

IMHO diamond plates and CBN/diamond wheels are the pinnacle of evolution as far as sharpening gear - they don't need dressing/flattening, they last a long time if used with care, they cut fast and clean and you don't have to mess about soaking them in water/oil or any of that time-wasting mullarkey.


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## Woody2Shoes (12 Oct 2019)

sammy.se":1m6dlxw7 said:


> My only problem with free hand sharpening is that I always end up with a curved bevel, and I am not consistent with the angle, I end up blunting the blades on the higher grit, so it takes forever.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk



I think that there are many who would say that a curved bevel is actually the best thing you could achieve! Even with a fine grit, the cutting power of a diamond is sufficient to quickly recover an inadvertently dubbed edge.


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## bp122 (12 Oct 2019)

nabs":3sbkiykb said:


> bp122 it honestly isn't as complicated as the internet makes it appear
> 
> My advice, as a fellow beginner, is that If you don't have access to someone who can show you how to do it then this video series on sharpening is comprehensive, straight forward and easy to follow:
> 
> ...



It does seem like a good video. but I can't justify spending on it now. Perhaps I'll stick to your summary of it and follow Jacob and D_W for now. 



guineafowl21":3sbkiykb said:


> Board with a strip glued underneath so I can clamp it in the vice.
> 
> On the board is an Axminster Rider 400 and 1000 grit diamond plate (double-sided). Also glass cleaner, rag, strip of shoe leather stapled on, and a green buffing compound stick. Nearby is a small blade holder (flat stick with slot in it).
> 
> ...



No a bad setup there. How long have you had the stones for?



thetyreman":3sbkiykb said:


> the diamond plates are worth it, I got them very early on and saw them as a long term investment, it's great because I've never needed another system, just buy coarse medium and fine stones mount them in some plywood or solid wood, make a strop and you're good to go, it works.



Cheers, where did you buy them from and which ones?



ED65":3sbkiykb said:


> bp122":3sbkiykb said:
> 
> 
> > ...without having to spend most of the available woodworking time sharpening the tools and not being able to do anything with it!
> ...



Thank you for the thoughtful and systematic response, ED65


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## D_W (12 Oct 2019)

Rich C":2g4i10jy said:


> D_W":2g4i10jy said:
> 
> 
> > The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it.
> ...



At the risk of getting into a discussion where people will consider my principles too faffy and precise (they are not), the sellers method is fine for sloppy sharpening, but there are two problems with it:
1) it is not careful enough with edge and bevel geometry and will make things like nailing camber (if you're going to finish off of the plane more difficult). The issue with the geometry isn't at the tip, but the rounded bevel in wedging tools like chisels is problematic, it will have you doing extra work unless you're very careful about leaving it long and thin (the actual rounding at the very edge is fine, and perhaps desirable from the perspective of picking where your edge will fail). 
2) it has you doing a whole bunch of work to metal that really has no part in the performance of the tool (namely, you end up polishing a whole bunch of the bevel that doesn't need it)

It's both quicker and far more precise to remove a flat or hollow bevel (I'm more of a traditionalist, but I cannot argue just how good a CBN wheel is - even the wheels that are $50 from china are fabulous - the grinder used does not need to be large or expensive), and use fewer stones, and for the ultimate work, slower stones precisely where you want to use them. 

Every person I've ever seen who does fine work with a lot of hand tools is much more precise about their sharpening, and economical with effort. Not more deliberate (not slower), but more precise. 

I don't wish to get in a fanboy battle - I am a fanatical sharpener of things sort of as a hobby, it goes well beyond tools. Fanatical not only in sharpness, but quickness of it, too. But, I also work almost entirely by hand, and doing as well as possible with sharpening (within the constraint that it still needs to be quick) helps hand work greatly, because you will be sharpening chisels, planes, strange little irons, little knives, all kinds of things. The methods that actually work the best for actual work generally coincide with making the least effort, but controlling edge and bevel geometry by keeping the bevel out of the way but still giving you an allowance to be less than perfect at the very edge (finer, slower stones for that work- slightly rounding the very last fraction of the edge both for strength and to confirm that you have, in fact, removed all of the wear that was present before sharpening).


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2019)

Woody2Shoes":6tdpf1e6 said:


> sammy.se":6tdpf1e6 said:
> 
> 
> > My only problem with free hand sharpening is that I always end up with a curved bevel, and I am not consistent with the angle, I end up blunting the blades on the higher grit, so it takes forever.
> ...


Neither desirable nor undesirable - if you sharpen freehand then a rounded bevel is more or less unavoidable. 
Or rather - a flat bevel is difficult. But no problem at all as long as the edge is at 30º or whatever chosen angle. The bevel is not rounded _over_ it's rounded _under_ 30º.


D_W":6tdpf1e6 said:


> .....but the rounded bevel in wedging tools like chisels is problematic,......


Really? Why? The wedgiest chisel of all (mortice) is much better with a very rounded bevel and it's no prob with the others as far as I can tell.
I think the rounded bevel thing comes from the perfectly good advice in the books - to avoid rounding _over_, or dubbing. People extend this to exclude rounding _under_ and a whole generation of woodworkers make sharpening much more difficult for themselves!


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## D_W (12 Oct 2019)

mortising seems (to me) to work better when the bevel is flat. IF deep penetration is desirable, flat and shallower with only the end of the chisel being slightly rounded (to protect the edge and keep it from failing). 

There's probably a protracted discussion about what's really critical (and it's not so much shape - as in, if you can keep your entire rounded bevel around I would have a flat bevel - or less steep than that, we're going to see something similar). 

Most older chisels that I've gotten with a rounded bevel from use (including old used japanese chisels from japan) show a lack of success via laziness allowing the primary bevel to become too steep, the final edge follows by being as steep or even steeper. 

Mortising, i'm sure, depends a lot on the method. I ride the bevel, which is easiest to do when it's flat. Only the last little bit gets a tiny bit of rounding (like a tiny fraction of a millimeter).


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## thetyreman (12 Oct 2019)

D_W":tv801hvu said:


> Only the last little bit gets a tiny bit of rounding (like a tiny fraction of a millimeter).



might want to get that microscope out


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2019)

D_W":4hqjpk8t said:


> ...
> Mortising, i'm sure, depends a lot on the method. I ride the bevel, which is easiest to do when it's flat. Only the last little bit gets a tiny bit of rounding (like a tiny fraction of a millimeter).


Well you have chosen the difficult route I think!
Morticing is easy if you do the trad thing which is to do only vertical cuts down the face of the previous cut. Taking off as much or as little as the timber and your mallet arm strength will allow - in your terms 'riding the face (flat)'. 
Waste gets pushed out, no levering required until you get to clean out the corners of a blind mortice when the rounded bevel suddenly becomes useful as a "moving fulcrum". A straight flat bevel wouldn't do it nearly so well and is much more difficult to freehand grind/hone. Pointless in fact.


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## D_W (12 Oct 2019)

thetyreman":2i9f4y4y said:


> D_W":2i9f4y4y said:
> 
> 
> > Only the last little bit gets a tiny bit of rounding (like a tiny fraction of a millimeter).
> ...



I realize there's a bit of water taking here, but the scope is probably a useful thing for someone to eliminate things like unfinished edges or chipping. It's not needed. 

The issue of rounding only the last little bit a few extra degrees is extremely useful, though (rounding more is a waste of time and results in a less good edge). Is a freehand version of taking just a few strokes with a guide clicked up (without wasting so much time) and allows you to rely on a slow final stone (fast would just enlarge the bevel and hassle you faster) to leave a fine edge. Slow stones are generally hard, lower maintenance, and tolerate of anything you'll sharpen from plane blades to gouges to tiny knives. 

Someone not finishing off of a plane or never paring a show surface isn't going to care about what you learn under the scope, and that's fine. I didn't get a scope for wood. I got a scope because a few years ago, I was flipping japanese stones (from japan) and razors. The only way to really grade the former and ensure the latter is sharpened properly is a quick view through the scope. It's turned out to be fun to use for other things, but not vital. For grading fine natural stones, it's vital. For the razors, it's considerate (if you're selling a razor as sharpened, it ought to be defect free).


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## D_W (12 Oct 2019)

Jacob":27e9dqqu said:


> D_W":27e9dqqu said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Not sure why riding the bevel isn't a second traditional method. Wood cuts more easily on the diagonal than it does vertically.

When you ride the bevel to the bottom of a mortise and rotate the chisel slightly, it does the same severing as it would if it was rounded. 

I've mortised various ways, but can't think of any being easier or faster than another, just settled on riding the bevel out of preference. I would prefer also if someone would build a mortise chisel with a tiny taper in its thickness from business end toward tang. A chisel like that never gets stuck in the cut and you can easily loosen a chip and just flip it right out of a mortise.


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## Rich C (12 Oct 2019)

I'm not sure I see the advantage of getting a plane iron very carefully sharpened such that you can finish with it as opposed to just using a scraper which does the job more easily and is simple to sharpen. Especially as a beginner there's going to be a lot of frustration failing to get the required edge and setup on a plane.


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## D_W (12 Oct 2019)

The method I'm describing will be easier to master, and easier to get a good edge finish than what sellers demonstrates, and faster. I guess that assumes that someone can learn to grind, but I think grinding is a vital skill. 

The point with the results being better is that it's going to make work easier and more enjoyable. The method is deliberate (as in, it's done a specific way), but it isn't any more careful than anything else. Summarize it as such. 
* Grind at a reasonable angle
* Use a moderate speed medium stone (speed doesn't really matter) with the edge lifted slightly. If using a plane iron, this is where you're going to take care of the camber
* if you're using a finishing stone, use a slow hard finish stone ever so slightly higher than the prior stone and work only the very edge of the bevel with a bias

While it's nice to use a method like this because it preserve geometry and makes it easy to set up (allowing you to finish off of a plane without leaving lines, or pare without leaving lines anywhere), it's better even if you're not finishing off of a plane or paring chisel. The care in preserving geometry will stretch intervals planing, too (because clearance isn't threatened).


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2019)

D_W":29osd5mg said:


> .....
> Not sure why riding the bevel isn't a second traditional method. Wood cuts more easily on the diagonal than it does vertically....


I spent a lot of time fiddling about trying to find best way of chopping out DT sockets hand tools only (no amateurish fret saws :roll: ) and came up with the vertical cut. 
A eureka moment! Suddenly became easier, faster, neater. 
Did demo snaps:













Then realised that morticing is exactly the same (which I've done a lot of) except obviously you start with a shallow vertical first cut, followed by slightly deeper vertically down the face and so on. 
The waste falls into the space left by the previous cut and basically just gets forced out, no levering or chip removal except the last few bits.
No need of, or point in, a diagonal cut anywhere at all in the process.
PS chopping out is what firmer chisels are for. A mortice chisel is just an even firmer chisel. Also reveals what short butt chisels are good for - sitting down doing a lot of repetitive short chopping DT sockets.


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## Ttrees (12 Oct 2019)

Have you ever tried one of those big blue Thor mallets ?
Effin hell its way better than a wooden mallet, yes a bit unwieldy and you have to lift your elbow higher,
but easier on the hand and a good bit quieter too which is strange considering the POWER.


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## Ttrees (12 Oct 2019)

Rich C":quk4eb2i said:


> I'm not sure I see the advantage of getting a plane iron very carefully sharpened such that you can finish with it as opposed to just using a scraper which does the job more easily and is simple to sharpen. Especially as a beginner there's going to be a lot of frustration failing to get the required edge and setup on a plane.



Scrapers go blunt quick, very quickly indeed.


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## ED65 (13 Oct 2019)

sammy.se":3qbuzhdg said:


> Are those coloured diamond plates you see in Screwfix , Wickes etc any good?


They're all right, but the indentations can becomes a source of frustration. If you're looking at a set of three perhaps more important is that the grit range tends to be a little compressed, with not enough range between the coarsest and finest. The fine end is usually _okay _(okay, not great) often being 600 grit from what I've seen. But the low end is frequently not usefully coarse and even in diamonds it's slower than you'd want.

Continuous diamond plates are better in all ways, you never have to worry about the plastic backing separating for one  See the link in this thread from a couple of weeks ago: monster-stone-t119162.html for a supplier. You might benefit from reading the previous discussion on the preceding pages for context. I would suggest getting 150 or even 120 and 1,000 and nothing in between. You don't need them, I promise. 

Not guaranteeing the above is the cheapest, it's just the cheapest I found with free shipping when I looked quickly at the time.



sammy.se":3qbuzhdg said:


> I must admit, I use Paul seller's sand paper method because I'm daunted by all the stone/plate options.


Just call it the sandpaper method, or "scary sharp" which is what it normally goes by these days (although it actually far predates that humorous appellation).

You won't know yourself once you try diamonds. The back-and-forth stroke alone would double the speed of honing, but there's far more going on even if you're currently using a quality silicone carbide paper. SiC and diamond seem close together in the hardness tables but it's misleading, diamonds are actually far harder. You can also press down much more firmly, without any worry about tearing obvs, which also improves abrasion.

Edit: 


sammy.se":3qbuzhdg said:


> My only problem with free hand sharpening is that I always end up with a curved bevel, and I am not consistent with the angle, I end up blunting the blades on the higher grit, so it takes forever.


Use a honing guide if you need to, there's no shame in it. 

If you want to work on your freehanding (and it is worth persevering) make yourself a 'take-off ramp'. It's just a wedge of wood cut to the appropriate angle that you have behind the chisel/plane iron before you start your stroke. This can greatly help in not going steeper than intended, as well as helping to prevent dubbing an edge.


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## Jacob (13 Oct 2019)

ED65":2qply59h said:


> .......
> 
> 
> sammy.se":2qply59h said:
> ...


No shame in a rounded bevel either. It doesn't matter at all and that's how everybody used to do it.It does seem to be the big anxiety which drives modern sharpening trends, for no good reason at all!


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## ED65 (13 Oct 2019)

bp122":7hhs51yx said:


> It does seem like a good video. but I can't justify spending on it now.


If you want to try diamonds you can get up and running for a total cost of about a tenner, all-in. This isn't some ad-hoc substitute for a proper rig, two plates and a strop can be a do-anything setup (barring jobs a grinder is best suited to) that'll last for years. Easily a decade for a light/occasional user.



bp122":7hhs51yx said:


> Thank you for the thoughtful and systematic response, ED65


You're welcome. Please try not to be distracted by Jacob's One True Way crusade. I know it's hard. There are many ways of doing it as you already know, most will give satisfactory results and there are any number good enough that there's nothing to choose between them. But certain ideas are notably flawed... some of the earliest written sources talk about keeping honing stones flat and describe how it's to be done, so the idea that it's some modern fetish is unsubstantiated nonsense despite the ad nauseum repetition. 

I strongly strongly strongly advise you to start with flat honing surfaces, whatever they are, and keep them that way if they do require maintenance. You can use a dished stone later on when you know what you're doing but starting with one is a recipe for disaster. It's especially bad if you use multiple stones and only one is dished, and even worse if all are dished but with different curvatures! This is something that can see you chasing your tail for hours, plus can contribute to struggling with getting consistently good edges for years. And I do mean these times literally; I've spoken to numerous people online and in person who took up woodworking long before I did and still can't get edges they're happy with every time. And that's _without _the added complication of a curved honing surface!

Flat stones (any flat honing surface) are so much more versatile I can't emphasise it enough. You can hone to and fro or side to side, along the stong as well as across, _anywhere on the surface_, as mood, space or circumstances dictate and always get the same results. You cannot do this on a stone dished in one direction much less two.

Only on a flat surface can you do the bevel and the back, on any chisel down to the narrowest available up to the widest plane irons made, as well as hone a razor blade, a marking knife or an awl if need be, again in any direction anywhere on the surface with equal ease. Flat honing surfaces handle flat bevels, convex bevels or ground concave bevels; a dished stone can really only do one of those and not even as well.

I hope this helps you see that flat > dished, all day every day. And twice on Sundays.


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## ED65 (13 Oct 2019)

Jacob":1v4yxn85 said:


> No shame in a rounded bevel either.


Did I say that there was? Since you need the reminder, I too use cambered bevels on virtually everything. I now make no particular effort to produce this shape so the curvature is much less pronounced than I used a few years ago, but everything will have a slight camber because I freehand.



Jacob":1v4yxn85 said:


> ...that's how everybody used to do it.


Yeah whatever. Flat, primary/secondary, cambered, hollow-ground have all been used historically and I'm not going to try browbeat anyone into believing otherwise. 

Today you can find high-end users using all of them (and some others) so there's no case to be made that one is superior to the others, or that any are markedly inferior in terms of results.


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## Jacob (13 Oct 2019)

ED65":2smw8j97 said:


> ... Please try not to be distracted by Jacob's One True Way crusade. I know it's hard.....


It's not the one true way but it is the easiest basic way. Almost as easy as sharpening a pencil.
You can then make it as refined or as difficult as you want. By all means get set up to plane perfectly that gnarly cross-grained bit of rare Australian hardwood which seems to be the mecca of the sharpening movement! The passport into the exclusive world of the the "high-end user" :lol: :lol: 
If you've never sharpened before it's hard for the first half hour or so but you soon get it.
It was a eureka moment for me when I suddenly got back to basics. 
I also realised why there is so little info in the old books - it was taken for granted as something easy which you'd pick up on day one (or two). The only regular advice was to avoid rounding _over_, which is basic mistake everybody makes at the beginning.Rounding _under _is fine and normal. You soon get to constrain your edge angle to 30º
Main thing is to stop worrying about rounded bevels but keep the edge at or below 30º. The other thing is to forget "flattening". Don't flatten anything.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Oct 2019)

Nev, you wuz right ... :lol:


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## Jacob (13 Oct 2019)

Well I can't just keep it a secret can I? :lol:
Our OP is asking for basic beginners advice.
Seriously though - I think it's a great pity that so many have been so misinformed. The quite separate culture of the sharpening enthusiast has spilled over and overwhelmed ordinary woodwork. 
Even worse with knife sharpening enthusiasts (don't go there :roll: )


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## Rich C (13 Oct 2019)

Jacob":w76jiqy8 said:


> By all means get set up to plane perfectly that gnarly cross-grained bit of rare Australian hardwood which seems to be the mecca of the sharpening movement! The passport into the exclusive world of the the "high-end user" :lol: :lol:


I agree that people do take sharpening way too seriously, there's no point sharpening to a single molecule edge to them go and plane some spruce.

My take is that you should get things sharp enough for the job in hand. If I can take a translucent shaving of the wood I'm using then why spend extra effort getting it to the level of handling some crazy wild grain?

That said, diamond stones all the way. As mentioned above they really are night and day compared to sandpaper.


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## Jacob (13 Oct 2019)

Rich C":1wta38rf said:


> ...
> I agree that people do take sharpening way too seriously, ......


Up to them, a harmless pastime, but they shouldn't expect us all to follow!

I've got some Ezelap diamond plates which work fine but I still prefer the oil stone somehow. A lot cheaper too and probably longer lasting. How long do diamond plates last I wonder?
Never bothered with sand paper - looks like a complete non starter, though I use wet n dry (wet) for some major fettling jobs.


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## sammy.se (13 Oct 2019)

I've ordered myself some diamond plates from ali express - thanks ED65! Will let you know how I get on.

Still need a honing guide and some strop paste. For another time 

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Bm101 (13 Oct 2019)

Sam autosol is a handy thing to have, a tube is under a fiver. A scrap of mdf is always skipdippable. Your stropping worries are sorted for years for the price of a quiet sunday pint and a packet of sharpening thread popcorn.

O


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## Jacob (13 Oct 2019)

ED65":2b2iraqo said:


> .....
> Only on a flat surface can you do the bevel and the back, on any chisel down to the narrowest available up to the widest plane irons made, as well as hone a razor blade, a marking knife or an awl if need be, again in any direction anywhere on the surface with equal ease. Flat honing surfaces handle flat bevels, convex bevels or ground concave bevels; a dished stone can really only do one of those and not even as well.
> 
> I hope this helps you see that flat > dished, all day every day. And twice on Sundays.


So we have ED56's 'one true way' forcefully asserted! I thought it was just me! He's quite wrong by the way. :lol: 
In the real world you start out with a flat new stone, attempt to keep it flat by spreading the load, but inevitably they become slightly hollowed as the middle gets used more than the edges, with chisels especially.
But this doesn't matter - the stone effectively wears in to match your honing routine and you hardly notice. No flattening required.
However if hollowing the stone becomes excessive you might consider changing your routine - doing it differently, spreading the load better or even keeping a separate stone for chisels for instance. Not a bad idea especially with heavy mortice chisels which are also narrow and can wear a stone very quickly. Freehand honing does allow a lot of force which is why it is quicker.
It does matter a lot if you use a jig however, as they only work with flat stones.
There's the rub. No pun intended!
PS If you buy an old well used stone they are almost always hollowed to some extent. This isn't because they couldn't sharpen properly. Also flattening was not easy - basically you need a harder medium. You'd have to if you inherited a really badly hollowed stone perhaps.


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## ED65 (13 Oct 2019)

sammy.se":caoeql7q said:


> Still need a honing guide...


Want one by the end of the day? Build dis. Maybe a 10-minute job if you have two suitable scraps of wood and a couple of screws or bolts. There's no requirement to use T-nuts or threaded inserts, this will give greater durability but the screws can tap straight into the wood and the jig will still last a long time.



sammy.se":caoeql7q said:


> ...and some strop paste.


Most metal polishes, including Brasso or a white stainless steel polish, hob creams and a few car compounds like T-Cut will work as stropping compound if you have any of those. If there's an artist in the family Chromium Oxide oil paint can also be used.

If you have nothing at all suitable Autosol and Peek are good tube polishes to pick from. They work about the same so just pick whichever you can get cheapest.


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## ED65 (13 Oct 2019)

Rich C":2zbfr3ud said:


> I agree that people do take sharpening way too seriously...


You mean like someone who will argue they're right, everyone else is wrong, for day after day, sometimes for weeks, again and again and again over a span of about two decades? Yup, nailed it.


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## Rich C (13 Oct 2019)

Bm101":1ciareek said:


> Sam autosol is a handy thing to have, a tube is under a fiver. A scrap of mdf is always skipdippable. Your stropping worries are sorted for years for the price of a quiet sunday pint and a packet of sharpening thread popcorn.
> 
> O


You can also pick up a big bar of green buffing compound on amazon for about a fiver, if you prefer a more solid format.


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## Rich C (13 Oct 2019)

Jacob":1kf3284i said:


> I've got some Ezelap diamond plates which work fine but I still prefer the oil stone somehow. A lot cheaper too and probably longer lasting. How long do diamond plates last I wonder?


Depends how much you use them, years at least though, even for a frequent user. Paul Sellers reckons to get ten years out of his and they're being used for his woodworking school, so I would imagine a few decades for most of us.


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## sammy.se (13 Oct 2019)

ED65":1925enve said:


> sammy.se":1925enve said:
> 
> 
> > Still need a honing guide...
> ...


Thanks!! I have all of that stuff so will give it a go!

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## D_W (13 Oct 2019)

Rich C":3d0ahy9v said:


> Jacob":3d0ahy9v said:
> 
> 
> > I've got some Ezelap diamond plates which work fine but I still prefer the oil stone somehow. A lot cheaper too and probably longer lasting. How long do diamond plates last I wonder?
> ...



You'll find the ezelaps to last next to forever if you don't care that they slow down. 

Oilstones are multi-generational, except for crystolon or similar friable grinding stones. They are better for bevel grinding than any diamond stone, though.

The solution to the ezelaps wearing to slowness is just to have them a step up in speed/coarsness and expect them to slow down. For example, the 600 is probably not as fast as most 1000 waterstones once it's broken in, but it's not far off. The 1200 becomes slow, but slow becomes finer. The method I described works well with diamond stones, and is less dependent on their speed because the grinder does most of the work. I guess because of that, it's really not dependent on stone type at all because there isn't any commonly used media that won't work well with it.


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## orchard (14 Oct 2019)

nabs":1x985yyb said:


> bp122 it honestly isn't as complicated as the internet makes it appear
> 
> My advice, as a fellow beginner, is that If you don't have access to someone who can show you how to do it then this video series on sharpening is comprehensive, straight forward and easy to follow:
> 
> ...



+1 - as a noob, these systems yield results. 

One important thing to take from his series is one's system should be determined by the type of steel you want to sharpen.


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## Jacob (14 Oct 2019)

orchard":jto1qzmr said:


> ...
> One important thing to take from his series is one's system should be determined by the type of steel you want to sharpen.


Can't say I've ever noticed a prob with any steel on an oil stone. They are different which basically means they take different amounts of time. It's just too easy to be distracted by pseudo-technical sharpening enthusiast issues, simpler head down brain off, just do it, keep it simple.


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## D_W (14 Oct 2019)

The only issues I've ever found (and only one of them has to do with tools instead of knives) is that A2 steel will give up chunks to a washita stone. Not to a translucent or black arkansas stones, just a washita. 

I never knew what was going on until I took microscope pictures after sharpening A2 on one. Other than that, I'd say V11/powder stainless steel without much vanadium - takes a finer edge off of a washita than carbon steel does because it grades the stone a little but doesn't stop it. 

I think most people would be surprised to find out that an india stone cuts their "premium" irons freehand better than a waterstone. It can pin them a little bit faster than other steels, but that can be dealt with. Some of the harder waterstones load and pin, too. 

knives that come with big bits of vanadium in the steel are another story - I just can't see the value in them unless your scraping rust off of a pipe. Some of them will take a good edge off of nothing other than a loaded buffing wheel, and they'll give up their very edge (due to large particles) to a simple leather strop and then be outdone in actual slicing work (what people normally do with knives) by simple stainless like the V11 is made from, and in some cases, even a plain carbon steel knife. 

Vanadium is good for turning tools, but I can't see much virtue in more than a couple of tenths of a percent (to allow higher hardness) in any hand tools.


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## orchard (14 Oct 2019)

Jacob":24sv7mcv said:


> orchard":24sv7mcv said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


The EW pretty much does keep it simple, for what my novice opinion is worth. On A2, use waterstones for secondary bevel, and mechanical to restore primary. Personally, i'm using a honing guide for the secondary and a Tormek for restoring the primary. Like you say, with A2, it saves a lot of time. I've had to use this a lot whilst processing rough, dirty, knotty structural oak. Whilst i can't speak with much experience, i can vouch for the system being duffer proof and being able to return quickly back to work with consistent edge.


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## dannyr (14 Oct 2019)

Regarding V11 and other hot isostatically pressed powder metal steels:- these are not (as you may well know) simply sintered PM (as, for example, many car engine components), but made into billets from large capsules of carefully blended fine powder steels, often of the HSS type, but also other types that could not be made by the usual means such as cast and forge. They may be forged after HIPping, but usually just to get to a more usable bar/slab size, then the further forging, heat treatment and grinding is also more difficult/costly. Why go to this trouble and expense? - firstly, even if the % composition is exactly the same as a conventional HSS such as M2, the properties are different (for most applications, much better) as the homogeneity is greatly increased and the microstructure improved (fine grain size and complete absence of porosity).

While most of these HIP PM 'steels' are incidentally 'stainless'. It would certainly not be worthwhile making a GP stainless such as 18/8 (CrNi) by HIP PM, nor a simple carbon steel.

There are a few dozen grades of HIP PM steels available more or less off the shelf. Of these, other steels in the HIP PM V series are V10 and V15 (implying 10% and 15% Vanadium, (as well as C and other alloying elements such a Mo, W)) ---- I would assume that V11 is approx. 11% Vanadium. All these V percentages are far higher than possible with conventional tool steel/high speed steel production (for a start, you'd get large grain size and segregation).

Sorry to go on, but difficult to say in fewer words.

Given all these steel alloys, isn't it amazing how good a simple carbon steel is for hand tools? A properly heat treated conventional tool steel of 0.5%-1.5% carbon (C) (% depending on application) in fairly pure iron (Fe) as made 200 years ago (Sheffield crucible 'cast steel') or, in small quantities in India and elsewhere 2000+ years ago --- is hard to beat.


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## D_W (14 Oct 2019)

Yes on the carbon steel, but not a surprise given that it came from centuries of professional use. I tend to default on the side of nothing new is really better, just different, and often it's worse. 

The V11 isn't similar to the 3V, 10V series - it's just high carbon, low vanadium, high chromium. grinds slower than carbon steel, but hones similar in sharpness and behaves (under the microscope) a lot like carbon steel while wearing - it wears uniformly. 

And it doesn't need any special stones to sharpen, though it would be slow if you were honing a large facet on a slow stone (no reason to do that). 

it's got less cut resistance than carbon steel, way less resistance in the cut than high vanadium carbon steels, and leaves a brighter surface on the same stone. It's at the same level of wear as carbon steel at twice the footage and sharper feeling with less cut resistance at each 2x per x feet for carbon steel. 

So, wheras I was a curmudgeon before and thought you could refine carbon steel to a point that nothing is really any better, I think aside from cost, the V11 is probably better. 

The high vandium steels (not sure what their industrial use is), I can do without. They're really tough, but they're also really slow to hone. Even on diamonds they're a lot slower to hone than everything else, and they can really hold on to a wire edge, and can create one even on really fine sharpening media. I'm guessing their industrial application is metal on metal contact (dies, etc) whereas the high chromium/low vanadium steels are made for blades.


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## thetyreman (14 Oct 2019)

bp122":2hfxz9ke said:


> thetyreman":2hfxz9ke said:
> 
> 
> > the diamond plates are worth it, I got them very early on and saw them as a long term investment, it's great because I've never needed another system, just buy coarse medium and fine stones mount them in some plywood or solid wood, make a strop and you're good to go, it works.
> ...



sorry for the late response, I got some DMT ones, but if was getting them again without question I would get atoma stones from workshop heaven, made in japan.


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## dannyr (14 Oct 2019)

Thanks for the info, DW -- do you have the analysis of Lee valley V11? As Crucible Steel uses the series CPM 15V etc and some of their competitors have used the reverse V10 etc (and been challenged by Crucible) - I had always thought it a strange choice but assumed we were talking of a high Vanadium which yes is normally used for metal punching and the occasional very high speed particulate wood/laminate cutters.

I had some correspondence with T Lee and his son several years ago about this, he was very polite, but of course he didn't let on that I was barking up the wrong tree regarding the alloy composition.

Bit surprising that Crucible let him use this confusing name -- they used to be extremely litigious (as did their main competitors, Powdermet and Uddeholm)

I'm out of the industry now and anyway don't have a sample, but it would be interesting and quick to analyse LV V11.


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## D_W (14 Oct 2019)

It's something you can find via google. I think the name they chose for the steel was based on Spinal Tap "it goes to 11!" and not intended to be similar to the A11 type steel (which someone in australia uses), nor the 3V, 4V, 10V, etc. 

I don't want to type the supposition of the steel here as I don't want to see it showing up in Chinese planes (I don't think what's the alloy or likely close alloy would show up in them as the cost is almost what LV charges for an iron made from it). It's already publicly viewable elsewhere, though. 

It's not a generic type where many of the versions are similar (e.g., Bohler M390, CTS-204P, and CPM-20CV), though it did cross my mind to try to make an iron out of one of those (I can't get the stock heated to the needed temperature for them though - something like 2200F, and I have an open air paint can forge that can only get the business end of an iron blank up to about 1900F judging by color).


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## Jacob (14 Oct 2019)

dannyr":3jqki6hs said:


> ...
> 
> Sorry to go on, but difficult to say in fewer words.


Thats OK no need to apologise! n.b. if you are interested in woodwork you don't need to know any of this stuff anyway. It's another hobby altogether.


> Given all these steel alloys, isn't it amazing how good a simple carbon steel is for hand tools? ..


Exactly. As far as I know that is - I'm not sure what carbon steel is to be honest! 
All that stuff about PMT11 etc is just advertising - it's shorter than "New Improved" and means just as little.


> ....V11 and other hot isostatically pressed powder metal steels:- these are not (as you may well know) simply sintered PM....


Well blow me down no I never knew that!


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## D_W (15 Oct 2019)

I didn't dig my tablet out to figure out these numbers exactly from memory, but here's what I recall:
* O1 - 800 feet
* tsunesaburo blue steel - 800 feet
* A2 - 1000 feet
* chinese HSS - 1350 feet
* 3V - 1350 feet
* V11 - 1700 feet

That's how many feet of beech heart edge grain I planed with the same plane (weighed the shavings and alternated irons every 200 feet to ensure it was a fair fight) - 2 1/2 thousandth thickness. When a plane would struggle to stay in the cut without downforce above and beyond just pushing the plane on the back handle, the test was over. 

subsequent test with M4, 3V and V11 showed a similar result with V11 vs. 3V and M4 (powder) was a couple of percent further (but much more work to push the entire time, and the edge looked worse). 

I took pictures of the edges every two hundred feet. 

O1 and V11 had the nicest looking edges, 3V was close. A2 comes apart in a strange way all at once and the edge looks like it's shedding itself under the scope. 

Here is a dull O1 edge. Still looks pretty good (look how uniform the edge is) - 780 feet according to the image title (195 strokes)






v11 at what must've been about 1670 feet





chinese hss at 1350 or so:





A2 at 980





japanese blue steel at the same distance as 01 more or less (not sure what happened, but it had more friction and it looked like chunks coming out). I expected it to outlast most but it didn't. White steel would've lasted at or a little less than O1. (this is a hard thing for japanese enthusiasts to tolerate - but the alloying elements do really improve wear. Only in the PM do they not come at the cost of a more ragged edge)


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## D_W (15 Oct 2019)

Chinese HSS is a real champ, if you can manage to flatten it. Cost of the iron was $11 shipped from china, it fits in a stanley 4 (not overly thick) and it holds up well in clean wood and is a real champ on silica. (it's almost M2, but not quite - they got cheap on a couple of the alloying elements). 

The brother iron of this (I gave one away) tested at 65 rc, so no wonder it seemed hard. 

Bottom line, if you're smooth planing or jointing clean wood, the V11 claims are accurate. 

Still think learning to sharpen as fast as possible is the most valuable thing, and though it will cause some who are early on in the hobby to have a negative reaction, that means no guide.

If one needs a guide at the outset, that's fine, but it's something to get away from unless hand tool use is very intermittent.


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## D_W (15 Oct 2019)

..this piece of wire is 7 thousandths thick, just to give some scale to these pictures.






That picture looks unusual because it is a powder steel iron sharpened on a natural stone. it sort of tumbles some particles off rather than going through all of them. 

(it's CPM 3V with a nice fast white japanese suita stone - a lovely wonderful natural stone that rewards a non-jig sharpener, and I can find them from time to time on japanese proxy sites for about $60 plus $30 shipping from japan - each is a lifetime of sharpening).


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## D_W (15 Oct 2019)

Here's the same blade off of 1 micron diamonds. 






The black dots are a film of oil


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## dannyr (15 Oct 2019)

Thanks - looks like you've done a lot of work, and thorough.
I was once in the business, but for home workshop hand tools I have only ever used old Sheffield steel stamped by makers such as Wards and Marples. (having said that, I bought a couple of v cheap Chinese socket chisels in the late 70s, used them as scrapers etc then found they are quite good hss laminated to steel.)


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## Jacob (15 Oct 2019)

The OP was asking for _Easiest Blade and Chisel Sharpening_ advice. :lol: :lol: 
Highly predictable but this thread has gone off in every other possible direction!
To get back to reality:
_"There are 100s of ways .....etc"_
Basically there's just one - rubbing your bit of steel on a bit of stone.
_"There are lots of bevel angles, primary, secondary etc .....etc"_
Basically there's just one - 30º and it's easy to get right freehand. You need to get into the habit of visualising this but it is easy - draw a right angle and divide into 3, draw an equilateral triangle and bisect the corner angle
_You have to flatten things_
Only if you use a jig or soft waterstones. Don't!
_There are so many varieties of steel...._
If you are a woodworker it's just steel. All you need to know. When you are good enough at it to know; if a piece is very difficult to sharpen, or too soft to hold an edge, just bin it, or put it aside.
_Freehand is difficult...._
Can't argue with those who say they can't do it but basically it's very easy and almost anybody can. It's easy to talk yourself out of it (as they have done). On a skill level it's easier than say learning to ride a bike but slightly more difficult than sharpening a pencil. It's the method used by virtually every sharpener at every level of skill since the stone age.
_Rounded bevels are bad...._
Only if rounded _over_ so that the edge angle is too high, but rounding back the back of the bevel under 30º is perfectly OK and makes freehand sharpening much easier.
The one critical thing which most mystifies beginners is "the burr". You need to be able to recognise that you have brought up the burr _across the whole width of the blade_ and then turn it over and take it off. This is the process in a nutshell.
A quick strop helps polish the bevel and reduce friction but is not essential and you don't really need compounds. TBH I sometimes use a squidge of Autosol.


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## D_W (15 Oct 2019)

Once a thread is 6 pages long, it can go anywhere. 

Back to the sharpening, I can give a comparison of times, because I had to use a guide while testing irons so that someone else could duplicate my results. There are a few trolls who think lee valley is out to get them, so they had an immediate reversal of affection as soon as I got results. 

God, I hate guides. I used charlesworth's sharpening method when i first started, and at that point, it was great. I literally took notes from his early video because I hadn't started woodworking, followed the methods end to end and had a sharp iron the first time. So, I used that method as I had old guides, and for testing purposes, I needed to use diamonds so that no iron would be criticized as incompletely sharpened. Stones and sharpening are a side hobby of mine, just like toolmaking. 

Cycle time for honing with a diamond plate as a secondary bevel and 1 micron diamonds as tertiary - 4 minutes. Agonizing. That's with ruler trick and then confirmation of wire edge removal since some of the steels have an extreme taste for keeping it. 

The guide takes away some of your touch with the iron, even if it's the eclipse type (Which is probably the best type for someone to at least learn a little touch). You can't lean on it, you can't manipulate it as much as freehand. Agonizing. 

Cycle time without a guide, same stones, same irons, about 1 minute and 20 seconds. The sharpness difference is effectively nil, and I tested duration of edge life and freehand is within 10% (it may be even on another repetition). That tells me that I may have freehanded slightly less clearance, but it didn't amount to much, and in the balance, I'd much prefer that. Shallower is always possible to match edge life. 

As much as it was interesting to plane several miles and see how long irons actually last in a controlled test, it's about 1/20th as important as being able to sharpen well and quickly. 

If there is any speculation about edge quality, mine is better than most. Maybe not all, but most. 

The scope pictures for the irons came out of the availability of it (as in, i already had it, so no reason not to use, plus it's interesting to see what edges look like on the same piece of wood (as in, do some fail in bits while others do it evenly- in clean wood, the answer is, no really, though the plainer the steel in traditional steels, the more uniform the edge quality will be). 

But nothing will teach a new woodworker more than a less durable iron and dimensioning by hand. You'll get good at sharpening quickly. 

Other than perhaps richard mcguire (however his name is spelled), I don't think any of the instructor gurus do much dimensioning. Chris Schwarz planes a lot of already flat pine boards, and I've seen sellers squaring wood up in a few videos - it was agonizing. He may have been making more than one point at the time, but it was pretty rough.


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## D_W (15 Oct 2019)

dannyr":1mxgykqs said:


> Thanks - looks like you've done a lot of work, and thorough.
> I was once in the business, but for home workshop hand tools I have only ever used old Sheffield steel stamped by makers such as Wards and Marples. (having said that, I bought a couple of v cheap Chinese socket chisels in the late 70s, used them as scrapers etc then found they are quite good hss laminated to steel.)



I'm just a curious amateur, but I sold some japanese stones and razors at one point, and got a decent microscope so that I could view what a stone actually was (these were all natural stones, no synthetics, and there are a lot of shysters selling natural japanese stones for high prices. I sold good graded stones cheap just to break even and keep the ones that I liked). Same with razors - anyone sharpening a razor and selling it ought to be able to guarantee that the edge is perfect or near to it, and razors are often lazily or incompletely sharpened when they're sold as "professionally sharpening" which is a farce. I never charged for sharpening. 

At any rate, I do a lot of hand planing from the heaviest to finishing wood straight off of the plane, so I volunteered to do the test. Now I have the hassle of writing about it and organizing all of the stuff, which is agonizing for me. The test is easy - i need to be wealthy enough to have an assistant and a writer!

I forgot, I still have a gaggle of infills, and they all have original irons in them. If it's of any curiosity, I did test bevel angle (to see how much difference 30 degrees vs. 35 makes in a 47 1/2 pitch plane - the answer to that is there's little difference in duration of planing between sharpening - steeper than 35 and things will get short fast, but that's already known)..that allowed me to see the relative performance of a ward iron in a norris 2. Its edge life was about 3/4ths of my O1 iron (which I made, but tested against a hock, both lasting almost an identical amount of time - the O1 is my best, and I foolishly thought I could make something that would wear very uniformly and be right on the heels of the alloyed irons. So much for that). 

In a decade, I"ll pop my head up again and see what's out there. There still isn't a version of an iron that tolerates filthy dirty wood or interrupted cuts and lasts like the V11. IT's not needed, of course. None of it's really "needed". Of the 800 feet planed by O1, anyone doing final smoothing would've gladly taken the first 400 feet, done a quick touch up in two minutes and planed another 400. That covers a lot of territory, and I don't want anyone to be misled into thinking they'll really gain something with V11 - I'd say maybe two minutes an hour in the shop, but at the cost of an iron that's a little harder to grind. Anyone who has spent much time dimensioning will recognize that in the heavier work, you're really looking for the easiest to sharpen iron and a break once in a while to do it, so I don't see the value of V11 in heavy work, especially if the wood is dirty - that makes everything equal more or less. 

The chinese iron is also a star in this contest - versions of it are $7-$12 shipped from china. It's better than a2, even though the irons are a bit rougher when you get them (they're just an HSS bit brazed to a mild steel blank). 

In order for me to make an equivalent to the V11 irons, I have to spend about $30 on ground stock, files and gas. 

(the chinese is true HSS, too - you can grind it until it starts to glow and when it cools, it'll still be hard. Then you can burn your fingers with it while you marvel at it).


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## Jacob (15 Oct 2019)

D_W":1hpbkhpt said:


> ......... I don't think any of the instructor gurus do much dimensioning. Chris Schwarz planes a lot of already flat pine boards, and I've seen sellers squaring wood up in a few videos - it was agonizing. He may have been making more than one point at the time, but it was pretty rough.


I had the luck to do a very good trad joinery course as part of an intensive back to work scheme, having had business fold thanks to Thatcher. Very strict regime run like an open prison! 6 months full time 8am to 5 am five days a week. Everything by hand as if machinery hadn't been invented. First week I spent making little half housing crosses as practice in planing, sharpening, marking, etc did dozens of them all starting from rough sawn timber. Looked like a pets cemetery! Brilliant introduction.
If you _have_ to do the stuff (or get thrown off a course) you get quick at sharpening freehand on a stone. Any old stone, a boulder even! It was 1980 ish and honing jigs were not common, even that recently. You wouldn't have time to fuss about anyway.


> Anyone who has spent much time dimensioning will recognize that in the heavier work, you're really looking for the easiest to sharpen iron and a break once in a while to do it, so I don't see the value of V11 in heavy work,


Yep. No point in retentive edge if it takes longer to sharpen - you need the little breaks! Also if it's really easy there is no deterrent to repeating the exercise and keeping things super sharp.
PS I slightly resent having been suckered in to modern sharpening to the extent I did, by smooth talkers who were making it up as they went along. Mainly the time I spent fiddling about with jigs. So I do sympathise with the endless debate which goes on - so many people have been sold a lemon!


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## D_W (15 Oct 2019)

There are a lot of people learning remotely - I get that, i did. Having a sharp tool the first time was handy, but there are phases of things in life, and people need to get a grip on that. The jigging can give someone the understanding of the angles involved, and do a little bit of manipulation and find for themselves things that don't work (like the oft proposed "there's no real need for clearance, I will be sharpening at 45 degrees), or other such things. Whatever they may be, some sense of laziness and desire not to be tied to a sharpening bench for 3 to 8 minutes every time you run into a silica inclusion in wood should send people toward no jig. I can't think of too many things that don't have beginners and then not beginners - the latter does things differently. More efficiently, generally with more feel or habit and less structure, but still with as good or better results. It happens planing, too. Nobody dimensioning wood planes in an X shape. We remove high spots and observe the wood, but a beginner doesn't have sense to do that so they have to check their work planing Xs or some other beginner's method. like using a jig, you could do that indefinitely and get good at it, but it's punitive to time and development. 

It's true sharpening razors, sharpening kitchen knives, using a table saw, whatever it may be. 

(I'm sure your beginnings planing and sawing by hand have made a myriad of other things much easier. I dimension with hand tools because I like it. I can suffer through using machine tools to dimension, but i feel cheated out of some experience and it's just an exercise in moving things around the shop and then cleaning up dust. There's no need for anyone else to share that sentiment with me, it's not the point. The point about the dimensioning is that someone early on told me that a woodworker will be much better with dovetails and chisels and smooth planing - all of that stuff - if they do the rough work by hand. I thought that was strange, and seemed far fetched. How does coarse work make you better at fine detail? Well, it does. I guess it's just a matter of coordination and neurons or some such thing - working to a mark all the time. Then the design and the marking become the challenge rather than trying to remember someone else's list of rules about how you should hold a chisel, or a saw, or whatever else.


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## nabs (15 Oct 2019)

D_W":3ga3sxub said:


> There are a lot of people learning remotely - I get that, i did. Having a sharp tool the first time was handy, but there are phases of things in life, and people need to get a grip on that. The jigging can give someone the understanding of the angles involved, and do a little bit of manipulation and find for themselves things that don't work



I think this is an important point - many of the things that may seem frivolous to experienced users (expensive new planes, jigs, flattening the backs of plane irons, new diamond plates etc etc) are actually good ways for beginners to remove some of the many variables that can make it hard to get a sharp edge. 

I am still a beginner so I still well remember the first time I ever got a blade sharp: it was with a jig, and soon after that the penny dropped and it was easy for me to spot what I was doing wrong when I tried it freehand. Absent any one to show me what to do, and without that first helping hand, I might still be faffing around today trying to understand endless bewildering internet discussions about sharpening


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## ED65 (15 Oct 2019)

*sigh* Yes, again for the umpteenth time, sharpening IS simple but that does NOT make it easy! We need no more proof of this than the known fact that many struggle with it, not for days or weeks but sometimes for _years_.

It's unfortunate that a few, from the perspective of knowing how to do whatever it is, seem to have completely fogotten what it was like to not know how. Or how long it _actually_ took them to pick it up :roll:


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## ED65 (15 Oct 2019)

D_W, preach on brother! 



D_W":pp844gg6 said:


> Cycle time for honing with a diamond plate as a secondary bevel and 1 micron diamonds as tertiary - 4 minutes. Agonizing.


 :lol: :lol: I've spoken to more than a couple of people for whom 4 minutes would be a fast hone indeed.


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## Jacob (15 Oct 2019)

ED65":6h08djxc said:


> *sigh* Yes, again for the umpteenth time, sharpening IS simple but that does NOT make it easy!


Fairly easy for those who kick off with normal freehand techniques. You could manage it too if you weren't so keen on talking yourself and everybody else out of it!


> We need no more proof of this than the known fact that many struggle with it, not for days or weeks but sometimes for _years_.


They tend to be the ones diverted into tedious modern techniques. One of the worst was somebody giving his account of trying to flatten the whole face of each of a set of 12 expensive Blue Spruce and getting deeply upset by hours of fruitless work. He'd watched something really stupid on Youtube, from a well known name! In fact a chisel is never easier to hone and use than when it is brand new. 20 seconds should do it, if not it's faulty ask for your money back


> It's unfortunate that a few, from the perspective of knowing how to do whatever it is, seem to have completely fogotten what it was like to not know how. Or how long it _actually_ took them to pick it up :roll:


Not me squire. I remember it well.


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## D_W (15 Oct 2019)

One of those folks is the person who got me into woodworking. He started me off 15 years ago with the advice that i could choose to do things by hand if I want, but for him, there's not enough time in life to learn to do it. His shop is power tool heavy, and solutions to things like tearout come in the form of shelix heads refitted to older tools. His building plans are laid out in autocad so "just wing it and then fit the next piece if something is a little off" is out of the question. 

His shop is wonderfully neat, and he still buys new sharpening gadgets from time to time despite dreading the process. His tools are so efficient and quick that you don't have time to think while using them, so you have to plan separately and the work goes by in a flash. Momentary lapse results in much ruined material. I can't work that way - but if I had to actually work for pay, his setup would make a set of kitchen cabinets in a fifth of the time that mine would. 

I think his sharpening cycle time with hand grinding mixed in is probably about 10 minutes - a completely different world. He does a good job sharpening, but is stingy with plane use on anything so as to avoid having to do it. I would have to give him 98% of the credit for why I work almost entirely with hand tools -


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## Jacob (15 Oct 2019)

D_W":8aanjby7 said:


> .....
> I think his sharpening cycle time with hand grinding mixed in is probably about 10 minutes - a completely different world. He does a good job sharpening, but is stingy with plane use on anything so as to avoid having to do it. I would have to give him 98% of the credit for why I work almost entirely with hand tools -


 :lol: 
Me too. I do a lot of machining but I do like hand tool work and I even like sharpening! Doesn't take 10 minutes though - that'd be for serious fettling on damaged/neglected tools and I don't otherwise need to grind anything.


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## swagman (16 Oct 2019)

DW; were you able to determine if the edge retention of pmv11 vs 01 closely matched that of Veritas's earlier claims.

Stewie;

http://www.pm-v11.com/Images/story_RadarChart.JPG


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## MikeG. (16 Oct 2019)

sammy.se":290712s7 said:


> .......... I use Paul seller's sand paper method.......



He uses diamond plates.


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2019)

swagman":32g04d2o said:


> DW; were you able to determine if the edge retention of pmv11 vs 01 closely matched that of Veritas's earlier claims.
> 
> Stewie;
> 
> http://www.pm-v11.com/Images/story_RadarChart.JPG


I like the chart. That's a hilarious bit of pseudo science if ever I saw one! :lol: 
I've no objection to people playing the game of sharpening 'science' but it does intrude on those who just want to do woodwork. The less notice you take of the gadget sellers and the johnny-come-lately 'experts', the easier it gets!


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2019)

Found a mad chisel "prepping" thread here from a few years back. I couldn't find the geezer wrecking his new set of Blue Spruce. It was the same story but worse. Both acting on nonsensical advice from a dodgy sharpening expert. You can probably guess who - he's on youtube a lot.
chisels-sizes-what-for-what-work-t84251.html?hilit=prepping%20chisels
Basically - don't do it! It takes a few seconds to hone a new chisel ready for use. A few minutes if you prefer struggling with a jig.
Actually the chisel "prepping" nonsense is probably the single most pointless and time wasting advice given out by the modern sharpening gurus. Probably wrecked a few tools too, and put people off woodwork for life! And you need diamond plates - especially if you are having to rectify the damage done by the bad advice to do the same stupid thing but using sand paper.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Oct 2019)

I bet the OP wishes he never asked. ](*,)


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## Trainee neophyte (16 Oct 2019)

phil.p":2sb5cihz said:


> I bet the OP wishes he never asked. ](*,)



For us newbies, who haven't seen all this before, it is actually quite useful. I imagine it wears a bit thin after the 40th time around, especially if you already know how to sharpen a chisel.


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2019)

Trainee neophyte":mos16fpo said:


> phil.p":mos16fpo said:
> 
> 
> > I bet the OP wishes he never asked. ](*,)
> ...


And it was a question from a beginner. I know I'm always repeating myself on this but I do feel that I know what I'm talking about - having been through the many options over many years, whilst doing a lot of woodwork!
Got a couple of jigs in a drawer somewhere but never got suckered into buying one of those really expensive ones though!


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## Woody2Shoes (16 Oct 2019)

Jacob":aho5g0sv said:


> Trainee neophyte":aho5g0sv said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":aho5g0sv said:
> ...



For me, a jig is handy on those occasions where you've got a blade where the edge has veered away from 90 degrees to the shank/body and where that lack of squareness can cause a significant difficulty elsewhere - e.g. shoulder plane blades

I also remember finding a simple eclipse jig handy (although I now have the Veritas one too :wink: ) as a set of 'training wheels' to help me start off on my 'sharpening journey' :roll: . Keeping the cutting edge at 90-ish was difficult for me early on.

I completely agree about the largescale misunderstanding about 'flattening' the back of a chisel/plane blade.

Cheers, W2S


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## bp122 (16 Oct 2019)

phil.p":3or03cw2 said:


> I bet the OP wishes he never asked. ](*,)



  
Not quite. It is indeed an information overload, but I'd rather have more information than less. It had been very useful to make a decision as to which road to take and also hear about everyone's experiences with different methods and makes if components. 

I got myself a coarse and a fine diamond plate from ultex, as it had been referred to by a few members here.

I got them yesterday and tried them out on my no.4 plane and a couple of my old Marples chisels. It is astonishing what a sharp tool can do! 

I did use a guide though. I also discovered a combination water stone in the garage which I also used. Getting the hang of it slowly. 

Thank you everyone for your suggestions, it really helped. 

Best regards
B


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## Rich C (16 Oct 2019)

I have a cheapy jig, I mainly use it for rehabiliting my collection of ebay chisels, which have some fairly abused ends. It's nice to establish a correct angle on the bevel initially.


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## D_W (16 Oct 2019)

swagman":346qajzn said:


> DW; were you able to determine if the edge retention of pmv11 vs 01 closely matched that of Veritas's earlier claims.
> 
> Stewie;
> 
> http://www.pm-v11.com/Images/story_RadarChart.JPG



Their claims are actually accurate. As are the sharpening claims, more or less. It is far more tolerant of a variety of mediums than A2 (most importantly, it takes a good edge off of a washita - better edge than O1, it wears under the microscope evenly like carbon steel does), and in all of the stroke tests, it planed double the footage and weight of shavings that the best O1 irons do before showing the same signs of wear (plane not staying in the cut under its own weight), and 70% more than A2. It grinds twice as slow as O1, which is where it's hiding its wear resistance, I guess - the properties of the steel itself make it seemingly as easy to hone, but we're probably just honing half as much of it off in a typical process. 

PM M4 is probably the gold standard in plane blade wear, and in clean wood, the two are approximately equivalent. 

Aside from cost and limited availability of the base steel stock that it's made from, it makes A2 obsolete (easily) and won't rust. 

I did, however, find the way the findings were communicated by the V11 page to be offputting because there are relative numbers in it and no actual data, and I thought my data findings would prove some of it false. 

I still find the presentation offputting, but it matches its claims. 

It also yields less planing resistance than everything else in the test, including carbon steel, and a brighter finish through the entire test than does O1. I'm not sure LV ever marketed any of those things. The base steel is something that anyone who can reach 1900 degrees can harden and temper (two mapp torches in a coffee can forge)..I've made a bunch of irons out of it quenched in oil, and they are similar enough that nobody would notice the difference. The same wear ratio exists, but it is more tolerant of overheating (as in 61 hardness is achieved at about the same temper temperature as steel, but if someone managed to blue it, it would be 59 hardness and still usable whereas O1 would be too soft to use and need to be ground off). It's slow grinding (which means back flattening is difficult if you'd make your own irons, except that it's far more stable even than O1, so there's little warping to flatten off). 

There are cross-references (once the steel was identified) in knife slicing tests where the same durability ratios show up. 

I'm guessing the legal department or someone at LV prevented them from just posting actual data on their page. It's a fantastic steel, but i gather that it's something that they found by trial, not something that was developed for them or specially created as some might infer. 

they also sat back and took criticism from everyone about how "it's not that great" without saying anything or lighting anyone up, which is more than I could've tolerated. Some of that was criticism from me. 

I never liked A2. I can't say the same about the V11 and the steel that it's made from. It's ideal for knives and plane irons, made only by one mill and may not be around forever because there aren't multiple other markets for it like there are with the high-vanadium steels.


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## woodbloke66 (16 Oct 2019)

Jacob":7m20iubr said:


> I know I'm always repeating myself on this



Indeed Jacob...I started on UKW donkey's years ago and the mantra hasn't changed one iota :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## D_W (16 Oct 2019)

bp122":za0nqy5h said:


> phil.p":za0nqy5h said:
> 
> 
> > I bet the OP wishes he never asked. ](*,)
> ...



We don't have the ultex plates here (by brand, maybe we do now), but the DMD branded version can be bought straight from china. They are wonderful plates for the money. If you find frustration flattening the back of anything, use good quality paper on glass instead - some of the ultex/DMD stones aren't perfectly flat, but fine for day to day use. Some of the much more expensive plates aren't that flat, either. Only the certified plates, the plastic base/core DMT stones (which are expensive) and the atoma plates are actually flat. The arrangement of the diamonds (in piles) on the atoma stones gives them a strange feel, but better durability in the long term. I don't like the feel of the 400 for honing, but they're a super waterstone flattener. 

At any rate, far more money sense to solve the flatness issue elsewhere, it's generally minor, anyway. The chinese milled steel plates with electroplate diamonds on them are great, and much of the stuff (like the senselessly expensive trend plates) appear to be the same thing or very similar. On a razor board that I used to read, several of the members purchased trend plates (the ones that were at that time, $140 here) and found that their flatness spec "per inch", which it relatively pointless for us yielded stones that may have been relatively flat per inch, but weren't flat enough to contact the established flat bevel on a razor from end to end. Unacceptable. The language on them was misleading, some thought they were made in the UK but found that they were, at least at that time, made in china.


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## D_W (16 Oct 2019)

Trainee neophyte":2p9pl1o9 said:


> phil.p":2p9pl1o9 said:
> 
> 
> > I bet the OP wishes he never asked. ](*,)
> ...



if you're around for a while, you'll get to the 40th repetition reading a thread like this pretty quickly. 

And you'll notice that if someone makes something and posts it, participation will end after about five posts.


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## D_W (16 Oct 2019)

Jacob":r559xgr4 said:


> swagman":r559xgr4 said:
> 
> 
> > DW; were you able to determine if the edge retention of pmv11 vs 01 closely matched that of Veritas's earlier claims.
> ...



that chart is actually a standard in picking steels for knives, so they didn't come up with it. It's also accurate, but I found the lack of data offputting, to say the least, and I won't buy most things without knowing what they are (as I'd rather make the bulk of what I use rather than buying it - even though that doesn't make money sense sometimes). 

All that said, their claims are actually accurate. It hones well, wears well, lasts a long time, is incidentally stainless (actually, that's intentional based on the small market segment they're aiming at), and the cue that it wears really well shows up only in the feel on the stones (it's slick, just like it is in wood) and in the fact that on a grinding wheel, it does grind about half as fast as O1/W1 - whatever relatively plain steel someone prefers. 

Still 1/10th as important as learning to sharpen quickly, though. The person who abhors sharpening on something will still do the same on another thing that lasts twice as long. In my testing, it came out of the cut, for example, at about 1700 feet in beech (depending on the piece - the next more favorable board might yield 4200 feet of planing, as seen here)....but given 1700, I would generally sharpen around 800 or 1000. For O1 that lasts to 780 (which is the figure that i mentioned before), I'd have been sharpening at 400-500. My cycle time is so short that I never really minded that and still wouldn't. If I couldn't have made the irons from the base stock that is apparently in V11, I would likely have *not* replaced most of my metallic plane irons as I have an attachment to things that I've made, and....well, the sharpening skill is still more important than the longevity. 

I'm also usually looking for some aesthetic, even in tools. It doesn't have to be prissy and fantastic, but the V11 irons have the mortal sin in design - straight lines terminating in tight curves and then more straight lines, more tight curves, etc. I don't have a picture of this iron finished (though it's finished, deburred and snappy looking now with the blue long gone), but I'd prefer a tombstone design or rounded top on irons if they aren't going to be a dead stock copy of the original. LV prefers some of their buck rodgers design type elements, and I find them to be brutally honest about everything (as was the case with the durability of the chosen new steel), but I admire the honesty and not the appearance. 

https://i.imgur.com/ovKJcWo.jpg


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2019)

woodbloke66":3cen2x9x said:


> Jacob":3cen2x9x said:
> 
> 
> > I know I'm always repeating myself on this
> ...


Yes has changed - I've hardened up on it, I'm much more confident now!
Actually it is under continuous review. 
I bought 3 Ezelap diamond plates which do what they are supposed to but I still prefer the oil stone. What they _are_ good for is remedial work on something a bit knackered but if I didn't have them I'd use wet n dry (wet) on a flat surface - very fast and much cheaper.


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## Trainee neophyte (16 Oct 2019)

D_W":50xce462 said:


> And you'll notice that if someone makes something and posts it, participation will end after about five posts.



Point taken. Priorities.


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## MikeG. (16 Oct 2019)

D_W":3i4vc4wg said:


> .......you'll notice that if someone makes something and posts it, participation will end after about five posts.



Oooooh, I don't know


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## Osvaldd (17 Oct 2019)

@D_W 
care to share a link to HSS china blades?
cheers


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

MikeG.":15tghm5z said:


> D_W":15tghm5z said:
> 
> 
> > .......you'll notice that if someone makes something and posts it, participation will end after about five posts.
> ...



You're right, this forum is better about it than most.


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

Osvaldd":m6enmfi6 said:


> @D_W
> care to share a link to HSS china blades?
> cheers



Plane Blade Linky

The green ones, I have used quite a bit (and had four of them - I set them up and give them away sometimes). Be forewarned, they quote 60-62 hardness in one listing, but we had one tested in a versitron and the business end averaged 65. Flattening them is no joke - as they're HSS, and it's not just 65 hardness, but its 65 hardness with slick abrasion resistant carbides. 

They take a great edge but can have tiny anomalies here and there. Very consistent from iron to iron except for flatness (and the lack of it is often a belly). 

Best dollar for dollar iron I've ever seen, and the guy assisting me with some details while I was testing (as in, he really wanted to know what these were made of, so I said "I'll give you one and you can have it tested. I'm too lazy to do that".) He arranged getting it XRFed and it's pretty much M2, but just slightly short in some of the alloying elements, probably due to cost. 

a strong performer in bad/dirty wood, too.


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

aside, you will find some that have black paint for $8 shipped (whatever that is in your royal dollars), and I have two of those, too, but haven't gotten them out of the pack. I suspect they're all made in the same place, but that's not confirmed. 

If you remember mujingfang planes, they are suspiciously similar to the HSS irons in those!!


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## Osvaldd (17 Oct 2019)

Thanks D_W , just ordered one. wonder if there are any 60mm hss blades too? can't find any.


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## Osvaldd (17 Oct 2019)

this one says HSS, and its only £3.50
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000219 ... drXEC&mp=1

i wonder if its really HSS though...


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

It could be HSS, or something similar, or just mismarked "bearing steel" or some other generic term that they use. 

I also got one of the thicker blades (not sure if it's the same unpainted version that's listed with the green one, but something like that) to use instead of A2 in a lie nielsen plane, and it works well, but is definitely softer than the green ones. 

Some of the blades have a spec of 54-58 listed, and if the middle of that range is made, the blade will be almost unusable. The green ones say 60/62, and maybe somewhere one of them is that - so you're taking chances with all of it to some extent other than that I've never seen one of the brazed bit types have any issues other than flatness and a tiny defect pit here or there that you may need to grind past. There's not much of that, either. 

When you get yours, if the slot is ever so slightly too narrow for the adjuster in your plane, they're easily filed and often have a burr that can be filed off - only the bit is hard. Not sure what the burr is in the center of the blade - perhaps they're laser cut or water cut or something.

(i don't recall seeing anything bigger than 51mm, by the way).


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## Trevanion (17 Oct 2019)

I wonder if anyone's attempted to make a tungsten carbide or stellite tipped hand plane blade.


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## Jarno (17 Oct 2019)

Have they stamped all of that lettering and logos in, or is it engraved? Is it still flat? Those narrow areas next to the cutout are the nastiest place to stamp that much lettering in, it'll turn the iron into a banana. Unless perhaps they did not press it in as deeply (and with those large letters) in real life.


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

Actually, the fellow here in the states that had irons XRFed and hardness tested as part of my process experimented with a bunch of stuff. He uses a plane only for trimming joints and wants one that never needs to be sharpened. Interrupted cuts and slow speed force takes the edge right off of carbide at any plane type angle, not sure about stellite (but probably without a 60 or 70 degree angle, it doesn't hold up that well - BOTH make excellent blunt scrapers if you can get them brazed to a handle, though). He also tried titanium nitride hoping to find a coating that might limit the wear on the back of a plane blade, but the coating right at the tip was quickly stripped off. 

some of the toughened carbide or carbide-ish materials like stellite seem inviting, though.

not that it was asked, but I was curious before i tried PM M4 (which has a reputation for being very slow grinding, but like the V11 base material, does a good job of shedding its wire edge and taking a fine edge), why there wasn't more of it out there, but the material cost for most of those PMs (to some extent, what V11 is made of) is just really high, and then when I make an iron, it's not a big deal to not surface grind an iron - it's not needed. I bias the heat treatment to make the non-bevel side a little hollow, prepare that and then just deburr the rest of the iron. However, everyone expects a commercial iron to be ground flat on both sides, and the fellow who loaned me the M4 iron to test said that just the post heat treat surface grind for a small batch of irons was $100. 

Heat treat errors come into play, too (which is why I heat treat my own in the shop). The 3V iron that I received was 59 hardness, despite the heat treater being told 61 hardness. 59 is the spec for knives, top end, to preserve toughness, so even when you request something special (there's plenty of toughness at 61 for planing), you spend mondo bucks making specialty irons and the heat treat guy is on brain default mode and makes the irons 59 because the last hundred batches of knife blanks came with a request for 59 hardness. 

3V did well, but not as well as V11. It may have been much closer at 61 hardness, but it's harder to sharpen and at least as slow to grind and it is a world champion wire edge holder. 1 micron diamonds can raise a wire edge on it that's got to be alternated off and won't break off on leather sometimes.


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

Jarno":csq3c6cj said:


> Have they stamped all of that lettering and logos in, or is it engraved? Is it still flat? Those narrow areas next to the cutout are the nastiest place to stamp that much lettering in, it'll turn the iron into a banana. Unless perhaps they did not press it in as deeply (and with those large letters) in real life.



they're flat enough to use - I haven't had an issue. 

As soon as you put any iron on a cap iron, no matter how flat the iron is, the cap iron tension is going to bend the iron some. That's something easy to check with a straight edge. 

I did share the same thought as you when I saw that though - why would anyone stamp something that deep? There's no reason. All of the chinese irons that I've gotten have at least been good, some have been great. Sooner or later that streak would probably come to an end, though - i've got so many irons that I don't need to buy more to see how long it will last.


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## Trevanion (17 Oct 2019)

How about Polycrystalline Diamond or Cubic Boron Nitride tipped plane blades? :-k


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

I think you're probably joking, but I'm sure someone has tried it somewhere - especially machinists who haven't worked wood. 

the person in question who helped me track down more data (than just feet planed, weight planed and pictures) is named Bill Tindall. He was a research chemist/pharmacist here who makes pretty nice furniture in retirement, but aside from wanting to know the answer, he and I don't really operate the same way. He understands the chemistry/physics of everything, formulates what should be, then tries to test a hypothesis. If things don't work right, then he searches for the answer and moves forward. 

There are tiny things that make hand tool items work differently than other woodworking, and far different than diemaking or knifemaking, so I have always been of the school "nothing is better than carbon steel, it's easy to sharpen, it wears away sharpening issues as it's planing and it is always just dull and not damaged when it comes time to sharpen". 

Bill's view is, look at the data, then get some things made and try them. I'll try things first, see how they work, and then use those to predict something next. I have had poor experience with steels that have great chart toughness and wear resistance but can't hold and wear the intial edge well. There's a very tough steel marketed as SGPS here in the states -if you can sharpen it, you can scrape a pipe with it and it doesn't take much wear. However ,it will literally give up its initial edge to a strop. That's worthless to me. I can only get a good edge on it with a buffer and it has to be rounded over. 

To me, most of the steels come with compromises that I can't stand, probably because they have a lot of vanadium. M4 powder metal is very durable, it holds its edge but wears with a lot of friction in the wood. You can *feel* it. It made my wrists sore testing, I wished it wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as it did. 

V11 has tiny chromium carbides in it and not much else. It's really slick in the wood, and you end up thinking "maybe I just had a good round sharpening", but I was very deliberate sharpening, and found through repeated iterations that indeed there were visible differences between the slick steels and the ones that experienced friction. japanese blue steel plane blades (the ones that are sold by woodworking suppliers) had surprising surface dullness (I expected them to be the best) compared to V11 and a lot of friction, both in beech and hard maple. Maybe in softwoods, they wouldn't. 

Each edge started bright and clear in these pictures, but within 200 feet, the japanese iron edge looked like this:







WTF is that? The little bits that appear to be pulled out of the surface and then scuff the blade as they come out?

Here it is at 600 feet. the blade didn't last much longer than this, but by hardness and alloy, it should've outlasted O1. It didn't, they tied:





But O1 was nicer to use, and while it dulled fairly quickly, it did so uniformly. Here it is at 600 feet - lovely. 





Here's V11 after 800 feet - there's a line of wear, and there's some oil and wood dust at the edge, but look how even the edge is. Like carbon steel. Lovely. Surface better at 800 than O1 at 400, but that brightness is just an indicator of sorts, all samples tearout free, so a scraper and sander isn't going to care. 






Surface brightness, though, seemed to correlate with planing resistance. 

Long story short, Bill has postulated all kinds of wear surfaces on plane irons, but he's finally given up (be it plated diamonds, metalworking tool coatings, etc). A practical test of all of these things together has yielded far more usable data. 

And after much searching, Bill finally found a metallurgist who could talk to the difference between cutting steels for wood vs. wear steels for metal, and why vanadium doesn't seem to be that great in wood (despite its superior hardness) vs. chromium (chromium carbides are only a little harder than iron carbides). The answer from the metallurgist was related to size - lots of small carbides are good for cutting softer materials, and lots of bigger harder carbides are good for cutting really hard materials. 

I'm still an ardent supporter of carbon steel and no faffing, but I cannot deny that certain high chromium (stainless) steels where vanadium is left out and the carbides are kept small by process are actually better at smooth planing than carbon steel. And tolerable to sharpen. 

Everything harder with big carbides (like stellite, rex, etc.) is ideal for metal, not wood.

Oh, here's some ward water hardening for the fans. It only lasted about 550 feet, but it was sharpened on an oilstone. I think it would've gone another 100 with some more refinement - notice its ability to wear evenly despite the larger sharpening scratches from the natural stones. That is a very attractive property that O1 and old steel has. V11 shares it.






This also allows a look at what natural stone grooves look like vs. 1 micron diamond powder. I hate to say it, but when you get into the small oxides and diamonds, you cannot match them with natural stones. I wish that wasn't the case, as I'm a huge fan of the latter, and still using them (instead of the diamonds).


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## sammy.se (17 Oct 2019)

Wow. That's a passion for sharpening!

I wonder what the OP is thinking now :-D

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Trevanion (17 Oct 2019)

D_W":1scxkult said:


> I think you're probably joking, but I'm sure someone has tried it somewhere - especially machinists who haven't worked wood.



Only joking a little :lol:. I've got a PCD router bit somewhere for flush trimming, it should last 10 times longer than carbide apparently which is why I thought that. I only thought of CBN since I've got a friend that machines hardened steel with CBN inserts. We have Stellite tips on the re-saw blades, they last *far* longer than the swage set blades without any form of tips.

Of course, all of these materials are used at very high speed and high load compared to pushing a handplane.


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

Some of it, I can't really reconcile in my mind - why won't those things work on a knife or plane blade? I don't know. Do they require substantial (machine) feed pressure?

feed pressure from us is downforce while planing. Increasing it yields sole friction and then we're doing unneeded work, so it's time to resharpen to avoid it. 

When I started getting results, Bill had a paper from professors who studied the cap iron for the Super Surfacer machine use. They had used machines to plane WAY past where we would ever be able to, and made a blade shape that had so much negative clearance that the worn edge dipped below the cut. The machine had the ability to force the cut, anyway, and I think some of the planed distance totals that they had were numbers like 4 kilometers. 

My longest planed distance was a little over 4000 feet on one sharpening on a favorable piece of beech. I had made the iron myself (out of the stuff that V11 is probably made from) and was so excited about the result that I thought I'd really had something. It turned out just to be a very favorable piece of wood, as O1 planed a little over 2000 feet on the same piece. 






I have done something like this test twice now. Once each decade or so. I hope to not do anything like it again for at least another decade, as it's interesting to answer your own questions, but not that interesting. 

(a box and a postal scale are in the background to get both distance and weight planed to be sure comparisons are accurate - needless to say, this pile didn't fit in the box. After each weigh-in, I stuffed the shavings in trash can and then took them out to the back garden and burned them when it was full)


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## Jacob (17 Oct 2019)

D_W":298pw8l7 said:


> .... All of the chinese irons that I've gotten have at least been good, some have been great. .....


I've never had anything I'd call a bad iron. It's not rocket science and as long as they are steel they are probably OK. 
Even the worst plane I ever bought (Indian brand SV or EssVee) had an OK blade. The rest of it was total carp.
Some take longer to sharpen and last better - some get blunter but sharper quicker. Not bothered either way!


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

I've probably had three that were too soft really to be used as a smoother in hardwoods, and perhaps three more that were not suitable for anything due to being chippy. Maybe they'd have been OK in a jack plane (two were ohio tool here, a low cost brand - they were just junk, and the third may have been something similar). 

The three soft irons were probably about 40 years old. 

Having made a bunch of planes and bought and sold a lot of stuff, that's out of, perhaps....250? 300?

I've had exactly one set of chisels that was completely defective - marples with boxwood handle and round bolster (modern, but not completely recent). 8 of 10 were unhardened. 

Fully defective tools are rare. 

Of the stanley 5000 and english marples sets I've had, it's not uncommon for one of the chisels in a set to be annoyingly soft (especially relative to the rest in the actual set), but more common for nothing to be wrong with any of them. 

An iron that's a little too soft is still something that can be fine for heavier cuts, but the current environment of hand toolers doing mostly smoothing is probably one of the reasons the 70s stanley irons are whizzed on so much. They would be OK for rough work in a jointer.


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## D_W (17 Oct 2019)

Jacob":2qxugsxg said:


> D_W":2qxugsxg said:
> 
> 
> > .... All of the chinese irons that I've gotten have at least been good, some have been great. .....
> ...



(along with this, I've never made a truly bad iron, so when I do come across one that's carp, I figure that it's from a complete ...complete lack of attention. Even when hardness is off of where it's supposed to be, it takes a big lapse even for that to happen).


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## Jacob (18 Oct 2019)

Osvaldd":132fcy6k said:


> this one says HSS, and its only £3.50
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000219 ... drXEC&mp=1
> 
> i wonder if its really HSS though...


By all means fiddle about with alternatives but if you are having a problem with what you've got, buying a new blade is extremely unlikely to make any difference at all.
You have to go through the learning curve - doing it with just the one plane and blade is likely to be much quicker than chopping and changing. Each item of new kit can also be a new problem


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## D_W (18 Oct 2019)

sometimes it's nice to have an alternative. For $12, once you get those irons set up, they are nicer to use. They sharpen pretty much in the same amount of time with the use of a sensible method. 

I had some preconceived notions before running my last test, though I knew some of them - I didn't know the magnitude of their effect. 

For example, if I use something like a 4000 grit waterstone, I will have a plane iron lifting out of a cut somewhere around 70% of the footage that it will do so with 1 micron diamonds. 

Well, I think using loose diamonds is a pain in the dingus, but as part of the testing, a nice fellow who has experimented with this stuff himself sent me a properly ground super flat piece of cast iron. Bingo, back to a minute 20 or so to sharpen. I still don't think the feel of cast is very nice, but must admit that with pretty much zero change in my method (that'll never change), the edge longevity in smoothing is better. 

with a $12 iron, if I were using something like a later stanley iron, I've got edge life at 3 times what it would've been using the soft later stanley iron and the chinese iron. Sharpening time, same. Physical effort using the plane less. 

Those kinds of things are nice, but they do assume that you can use any system. I couldn't give the slightest guess to the number of stones that I've had (synthetics, idwall, charn, washita, turkish/cretan, coticules, eschers, welsh slates, arkansas, india - yes, synthetic, but people for some reason think they're antiquated and they're fabulous, diamonds, agate, jasper, sandstone, ....). Every single one of the sharpening systems works fine. Every type of iron that I've used, works fine, same sharpening method (sometimes a change of media is nice, but not absolutely essential). ...

I wouldn't assume someone turning gear over to play with doesn't know how to use it. The real problem with all of the methods (irons, stones, whatever) is that they all work. If they didn't, maybe it would be more of a deterrent to the habitual tinkerers like me. 

I did get another plane yesterday - a marples 4 1/2. The price differential between there and here allows me to tinker with something like that at generally no cost.


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## Jacob (20 Oct 2019)

Link here to my sharpening page. Out of date website, due for renovations any day now!
http://www.owdman.co.uk/howto/howto.htm


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## D_W (20 Oct 2019)

I prefer the extra laziness of a CBN wheel and a tiny finish bevel (not a tiny total bevel, but the very last work is done on a tiny spot), but I could live with your method and have done it plenty. 

A medium crystolon wheel is absolutely the most lovely grind stone that I've ever used when it's in an oil bath. Some may read some of the links and determine that alloyed tools are a no no with this method (and with slow stones, they may be across the full bevel), but the crystolon will cut stuff that is loaded with vanadium, no problem. I accidentally wasted a bunch of powdersteel blade on a fallknaven knife because it was slow on everything else, and laminated, so a no no on diamond plates, but the crystolon stone obliterated it in short order. 

IM 313 oilbath is a wonderful thing for someone who wants to sharpen full bevel but might have some hard stuff, too. Pricey, but often available used. The oil bath is just what the doctor ordered for the friable stones like the new crystolons.


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## Jacob (21 Oct 2019)

Just an afterthought. I was spreading my toast this morning and it struck me that it was technically on a par with, or slightly more difficult than free-hand honing a blade held at approx 30º.
Much more technically difficult is getting a spoon full of muesli in one's mouth! You probably won't remember your early failed attempts at spoon handling.
So (if you are) stop telling yourself you can't do it!


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## guineafowl21 (21 Oct 2019)

This is a good perspective on things ^^^. We forget about the years of training needed just to move about effectively in a 3-d world with joints that have many degrees of freedom, and muscles that can only twitch.

‘Much more technically difficult is getting a spoon full of muesli in one's mouth!’
That’s because muesli is the scrapings from a pigeon loft, and your brain is telling you to eat something proper, like bacon, instead.


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## Jacob (21 Oct 2019)

guineafowl21":3d680qg5 said:


> This is a good perspective on things ^^^. We forget about the years of training needed just to move about effectively in a 3-d world with joints that have many degrees of freedom, and muscles that can only twitch.


Hitting a ball, throwing a dart, playing a musical instrument, woodwork processes, all vastly more difficult than holding a bit of steel at about 30º


> ‘Much more technically difficult is getting a spoon full of muesli in one's mouth!’
> That’s because muesli is the scrapings from a pigeon loft, and your brain is telling you to eat something proper, like bacon, instead.


 :lol:


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## Trainee neophyte (21 Oct 2019)

guineafowl21":2esxijid said:


> That’s because muesli is the scrapings from a pigeon loft, and your brain is telling you to eat something proper, like bacon, instead.



I was expecting a guineafowl to be more interested in muesli than bacon. Each to their own...


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## Osvaldd (22 Oct 2019)

In this thread the advice is not to flatten your stones. How do you take off the burr from the back of the iron if your stone is not flat?


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## guineafowl21 (22 Oct 2019)

*popcorn emoji*

Ditto flattening plane soles and chisel backs during refurbishment...


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## AndyT (22 Oct 2019)

Osvaldd":gbwefv83 said:


> In this thread the advice is not to flatten your stones. How do you take off the burr from the back of the iron if your stone is not flat?


Run it right across.
For an extreme example, imagine that your stone is a teacup. You can't get to the bottom of the cup with a horizontal chisel but you can rub it across the rim, resting on both sides.

Incidentally, this is an advantage of a fairly narrow stone. Most old ones are 2" or less.


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## Jacob (22 Oct 2019)

Osvaldd":3grcpd6s said:


> In this thread the advice is not to flatten your stones. How do you take off the burr from the back of the iron if your stone is not flat?


Fair question. But in fact if your stone is typically slightly dished in the middle in the usual way, there will always be part of the stone on which to remove the burr. It's only a small movement, or you might even just use the edges (as AndyT describes above), or even the sides of a very worn stone.
Basically you just do it without thinking about it, with whatever stone you have.
The advice isn't "not to flatten" but more to spread the load and keep the stone as flat as you can, but not to worry if it's a bit off. Unless the stone has been really bashed about you never need to flatten during the lifetime of the stone (if you don't use jigs)


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## D_W (22 Oct 2019)

AndyT":3kozogvw said:


> Osvaldd":3kozogvw said:
> 
> 
> > In this thread the advice is not to flatten your stones. How do you take off the burr from the back of the iron if your stone is not flat?
> ...



I'm fairly well convinced (maybe it's already established) that it's important for a stone to be relatively close to flat in its width, but not in its length. Because of that, older wide stones are rare - regular sharpening will keep a 2" stone flat in its width. 

As you say, only a bit of the ends of the stone need to be managed to remove a wire edge. 

There is probably something to a less than perfectly flat stone that makes it easier to use with a thicker oil (there definitely is). I always flatten stones when I get them (and I get a lot, but I am a pig and it is a side thing - not a logical productive thing), and then never again. While I've had hundreds, I probably have four that get used on a really regular basis, and only one that gets used almost all the time. I was dimensioning wood last night looking at it thinking about how it's been burnished into fineness by XHP steel (a particle stainless that acts a lot like carbon steel when honing, though it does grade oilstones a little bit), but I cannot see without a ruler that it's out of flat at all. 

While it's close to flat, I don't know for sure that it is, so I always work the back of the iron over its edges. 

It's somewhat faint memory now, but when I used a guide, I couldn't see why makers of stones would've been "so cheap" as to make a stone that wasn't wide enough. A 3" wide stone is a recipe for belly on an iron, though, unless it's constantly flattened, and constantly flattening finish stones that are not friable is a good way to always have a subpar edge.


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## thetyreman (22 Oct 2019)

fun fact: diamond stones do not have a dip in them in the middle, they stay perfectly flat :lol: that's why they're so good, all you need is glass cleaner, mine are as flat as the day I bought them in 2016.


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## Jacob (22 Oct 2019)

thetyreman":2qxyyzuz said:


> fun fact: diamond stones do not have a dip in them in the middle, they stay perfectly flat :lol: that's why they're so good, all you need is glass cleaner, mine are as flat as the day I bought them in 2016.


Mine too. I use oil though. I don't use them much I still prefer the oil stone. I ought to sell them on.


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## ED65 (22 Oct 2019)

Osvaldd":k3n432wb said:


> In this thread the advice is not to flatten your stones.


Is it really? I hadn't noticed.


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## D_W (22 Oct 2019)

Jacob":19y6yb8j said:


> thetyreman":19y6yb8j said:
> 
> 
> > fun fact: diamond stones do not have a dip in them in the middle, they stay perfectly flat :lol: that's why they're so good, all you need is glass cleaner, mine are as flat as the day I bought them in 2016.
> ...



They lose value about as fast as a range rover. Might as well just put them in the kitchen for the mrs. 

(I have a couple of diamond stones. Some of them were flat to start, some of them weren't. Strangely, none of changed at all!! I use mine with WD 40 now instead of water, though - far less loading despite rarely adding WD40. The slightest glaze, they get a squirt, and off goes the stuff). 

I am in jacob's boat - for better or worse - I generally go back to the basic stones and not much new (but then again, i shave with a straight razor and about 6 times a year, I step into the modern world and use a Gillette fat boy -...so, like a 60s kind of modern world. It gives me razorburn as all other things not called a straight razor and I'm right back at it with the blade).


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## Tony Zaffuto (23 Oct 2019)

dannyr":3bm5tqk2 said:


> Regarding V11 and other hot isostatically pressed powder metal steels:- these are not (as you may well know) simply sintered PM (as, for example, many car engine components), but made into billets from large capsules of carefully blended fine powder steels, often of the HSS type, but also other types that could not be made by the usual means such as cast and forge. They may be forged after HIPping, but usually just to get to a more usable bar/slab size, then the further forging, heat treatment and grinding is also more difficult/costly. Why go to this trouble and expense? - firstly, even if the % composition is exactly the same as a conventional HSS such as M2, the properties are different (for most applications, much better) as the homogeneity is greatly increased and the microstructure improved (fine grain size and complete absence of porosity).
> 
> While most of these HIP PM 'steels' are incidentally 'stainless'. It would certainly not be worthwhile making a GP stainless such as 18/8 (CrNi) by HIP PM, nor a simple carbon steel.
> 
> ...



Spot on post! I own a powder metal part manufacturing plant and, though I know every bit of what you wrote, I must be to close to the process to verbalize as well as you have.

We make automotive components, but our direction has been conventional pressing, with accelerated temperature sintering-2400 degrees f. HIP and CIP have been around for many decades, and to be fair, the only connection to conventional PM, is at the very beginning, using metal in powder form. You've done an excellent job noting the use of the products from those methods.

Another process not mentioned is powder metal forging, a process by which many automotive internal engine connecting rods are made. But, unless extreme measures were to be used, the products would not be suitable for dge tools.


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## dannyr (23 Oct 2019)

Thanks for that, Tony,
I was in the HIP business (left 10+ yrs ago) - HIP has many applications, and I was mostly involved with its application to casting such as medical implants in CoCr and turbine blades in Ni superalloys, not actually making the HIP PM 'steels'.

But D W did correct me on my assumption that V stood for Vanadium in the V11 case --- I suppose it actually stands for Veritas or lee Valley?

Re PM forging -- tooling costs?

THANKS
danny


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## D_W (23 Oct 2019)

It probably stands for Veritas (the V), but LV was pretty careful about not doing anything to help anyone figure out what it was as, well, they don't want someone to find out. 

Lucky for them, nobody had the initiative to XRF samples for several years. If they haven't made their investment back plus some, I'd be surprised, and I doubt unless LN picks up something similar, that anyone else will bother to go to the trouble. 

Tony pointed out to me (which I didn't consider) that when the formula isn't under patent, you can very easily take the "formula" and make it elsewhere, so maybe my thoughts about cost are out of touch (for me, a 6x36x.094 ground sheet was $330 with shipping. LV sells the #4 sized irons for $48. There's not a whole lot there in terms of incentive for someone else to make irons out of something like that when A2 is a lot cheaper and the bulk of buyers don't really read internet forums or commentary - something like 10%, the other 90% get catalogs and see in-person demos and buy from there). 

At any rate, tony's comment about process earlier must be spot on- the alloy isn't that exciting, it's a stainless that can get a little harder than 440C and 154CM, but 154CM (non powder) isn't particularly impressive in edge tools and the edge chunks off. I didn't guess before doing controlled testing just how much difference PM steels would make in the condition of the edge as it wears (a lot). According to their charts, the wear resistance isn't much more than non-PM (pretty much across the board for M2, M4, etc) but all of the PM samples that I tested have very characteristic wear. 

The other strangeness was just how much less cut resistance there was in V11 vs. PM M4 - I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing that chromium is slippery in wood, and vanadium isn't. It's drastic - sore wrists planing 2400 feet with one, and relief from planing the same amount with another. 

The controlled test is one anyone can do - take two irons, your favorite vs. the V11 type, plane 200 feet, change iron, plane 200 feet, change iron. Sharpen them with a guide on final bevel for consistency and keep the shavings separate to weigh. It's a real lesson in guessing (I guessed way wrong) durability of an iron vs. testing. 

If we had more knowledge in the woodworking arena regarding blade steels (the chosen steel is actually a blade steel, not developed for dies), I'd imagine someone may have made irons out of the stuff 20 years ago when it was under patent and about 3 or 4 years on the market. Nobody ever did to my knowledge - maybe it's considered a risk if it's patented and only available from one maker, who knows?

Best smoothing plane steel I've seen by a mile, though, all things considered. If it wasn't PM, I'd see a chunky edge under a microscope and write it off as not being able to make a finish-ready surface.


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## swagman (23 Oct 2019)

> Given all these steel alloys, isn't it amazing how good a simple carbon steel is for hand tools? A properly heat treated conventional tool steel of 0.5%-1.5% carbon (C) (% depending on application) in fairly pure iron (Fe) as made 200 years ago (Sheffield crucible 'cast steel') or, in small quantities in India and elsewhere 2000+ years ago --- is hard to beat.



+ 1 Danny.


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## D_W (24 Oct 2019)

We have a small group of LV haters here in the states as well as a couple in Australia. People in Canada, I guess, are quite proud of them. They're (LV) more honest than they'd probably need to be, as is LN. LN's group has far less curiosity, though. The steel that V11 is either made of or copied from was available when LN switched to A2. A2 is inferior to it in every way except cost, and I hate to say it, anyone who is objective about what they're using (except those who refuse to use a carborundum stone or a power grinder) will find V11 or the powder stainless it copies better than carbon steel for finish planing. 

Maybe the cost of the stuff was higher before Carpenter's patent ran out. It's the first change in plane irons that I wouldn't consider a waste of time. And compared to some of the other garbage flung at us (primus plane irons come to mind - the ad copy made them out to be better than carbon steel, and they're some of the worst I've seen in a plane), actually meet their claims. 

When I was doing testing, Rob Lee didn't really comment as I was posting results. The rest of us were surprised, he generally wasn't, I guess, and just said at the end of my results that he'd been watching the stream of data as I was posting it. He also said that he prefers O1 when he's at the bench, but suggested that from a stability and consistency standpoint, the V11 is more sensible for a manufacturer. I think if he did a lot of planing, he'd change his mind at the bench. 

I still like carbon steel a lot, and the plainer the better, but I can't cling to my bias toward it and claim it's better than V11 in a plane.


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## woodbloke66 (24 Oct 2019)

dannyr":1gwjozfw said:


> But D W did correct me on my assumption that V stood for Vanadium in the V11 case --- I suppose it actually stands for Veritas or lee Valley?
> danny


I believe the 'V' stands for 'version' as it was the 11th type of steel they tried until they found something acceptable - Rob


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## D_W (24 Oct 2019)

I think it's actually a spinal tap reference, but Derek Cohen could probably confirm that. 

I didn't pay much attention to it at first, and I must admit, I didn't pay that much attention to it at all until I started doing controlled testing and measured feet planed and weighed shavings. 

The internet is full of fun assertions about it, though - suggesting that it's the 11th version they tried is a very reasonable guess.


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## swagman (25 Oct 2019)

> When I was doing testing, Rob Lee didn't really comment as I was posting results. The rest of us were surprised, he generally wasn't, I guess, and just said at the end of my results that he'd been watching the stream of data as I was posting it. He also said that he prefers O1 when he's at the bench, but suggested that from a stability and consistency standpoint, the V11 is more sensible for a manufacturer. I think if he did a lot of planing, he'd change his mind at the bench.



DW; 

take on board the message Rob Lee is conveying.


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## D_W (25 Oct 2019)

That's the message of someone not doing a whole lot of planing. Last week, I dimensioned 40 board feet of cherry from rough. 5/4 to 7/8, #1 common. 

The V11 is dominant on a jointer and smoother in that case, and now that it's in cycle, it takes about the same amount of time to sharpen, but takes an edge off of the washita like carbon steel does off of a translucent arkansas. 

It may not be as dandy for someone using a guide on an arkansas stone, or sharpening directly on a hollow, but those are things to avoid doing with plane irons. 

I was, however, surprised to see rob have that preference. It's admirable that he allowed the process to go forward (with employees and testers) and make, in my opinion, a better choice than he would choose. I haven't used the steel in chisels, though, and don't plan to - not in a world where I can find $10 old japanese chisels on buyee.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (25 Oct 2019)

D_W":qbi83lv5 said:


> I think it's actually a spinal tap reference, but Derek Cohen could probably confirm that.
> 
> I didn't pay much attention to it at first, and I must admit, I didn't pay that much attention to it at all until I started doing controlled testing and measured feet planed and weighed shavings.
> 
> The internet is full of fun assertions about it, though - suggesting that it's the 11th version they tried is a very reasonable guess.



PM-V11 ... "PM" stands for Powdered Metal. "V" is Veritas. "11" comes from Spinal Tap (as David correctly noted). It is Rob Lee's little joke  For those who know the movie, the guitar amplifier used by the band had to be LOUDER than anyone else's guitar amplier. All other amplifiers went up to a 10 on the volume control. Spinal Tap's went higher ... to 11! 

Geez David ... I wish you'd just repost your blade test details here. I find the result particularly gratifying because they echoed results I obtained 6 or 7 years ago when PM-V11 was released. I have probably been using this steel for woodwork longer than anyone outside the factory. However, because I have been involved with product testing for Veritas/Lee Valley for so long, it is understandable that my results are looked at with some suspicion. I keep saying that I report what I get ... why would I do otherwise ... because someone will come along and replicate the testing. So, my thanks to you for doing just that! I must admit I did smirk and say quietly, "I told you so" 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## D_W (25 Oct 2019)

>>I must admit I did smirk and say quietly, "I told you so" <<

Won't be the last time that my perception was wrong based on non-controlled data points!! I guess the two things that stuck out to me were using a custom plane to dimension a billet and getting a greater volume of wood removed with a butcher iron and a wooden plane (attributable to the plane design in that case - threw me off). 

And then one other comparison in the shooter. Testing on end grain shows, I guess, that neither of those were a very good representation of planing long grain in a fair comparison. 

But planing 40k feet of long grain and taking pictures...probably a pretty good comparison for the purposes of planing long grain!!

Learned many other things I didn't expect to learn along with it (even a way to wax the plane in a quarter of the effort and time), and learned of a new steel stock to make my own irons from.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (25 Oct 2019)

David, that was a great testing marathon you put in. I know of none like that. Of course, there are not many as .. ahem ... dedicated ... as you! 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (25 Oct 2019)

D_W":12a0zh4d said:


> ......
> Learned many other things I didn't expect to learn along with it (even a way to wax the plane in a quarter of the effort and time), and learned of a new steel stock to make my own irons from.


Er, how could waxing be improved? We are not talking Brazilians here! 
I just do a squiggle with a candle - like a hasty signature. I'd estimate it at 0.5 seconds.
The problem with testing involving manual skills is that whatever steel or tool you are using your performance will improve over time. This means that you can't always credit the new steel, or any other change, for the improvements.
Some manual skills can be improved dramatically with just a minor change of method. There are lots of examples I can think of. How would you factor this in to a comparative test?
It's a big issue - most woodworkers have steadily up graded their kit over the years but in the same period have put in 1000s of hours of planing etc. They've got better at it, but still would have if they had stuck with their first plane.


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## D_W (25 Oct 2019)

Jacob - in this case, the V11 iron was used freshly new (I bought it for the testing, bought and didn't receive for free - not that there's probably good or bad versions of them, but I want a random sample). Most of the other irons were well used, except my O1 iron which I had made not long before (but I tested favorably against a hock later). 

The bits and bobs that you're mentioning are not going to affect the test results that I put up. 

I do think sharpening cycle time is more important than any steel, but that's not what data we were looking for. We were looking for real data about longevity. Anyone doing an honest test (same plane, same confirmed sharpness level, same controls - weighing shavings and counting length to ensure that the same amount of work will be done, rotating the irons every several hundred feet to limit any effect of favorable wood - which can be huge) will find the same as I did. 

What I didn't test was jack planing, so I have no clue whether or not the same relationship would hold for thick jack chips. Jointing and smoothing is pretty well covered. 

As I was publishing the results, I did get a few folks who were concerned about the results because they either don't like derek or they don't like LV (and several don't like me), but they are welcome to be wrong. In this case, the results are pretty clear. 

As far as the wood effect - one stick of heart american beech yielded about 800 feet of planing out of O1 (double that out of V11 - a relationship that seems to hold an any wood that doesn't damage irons due to silica or mineral deposits, etc). Another that I tested my first "mule" in (a quickly made iron just for testing) yielded over 4000 feet of beech to the mule (equivalent to V11) and I thought I was really onto something. Imagine I had an iron that I had made that doubled to tripled the footage of the V11 iron!!!

It was beech sap, nearly the same density. 

And then my O1 iron planed a little over 2 thousand feet of it. 

Bummer, the relationship still holds. 

The discussion of whether or not it's necessary is an entirely different discussion - if it would be good enough to prevent someone from learning to sharpen freehand, in my opinion, the outcome could actually be negative. I think beginners will learn the most with several things:
* a sharpening method that uses one stone after the grind
* a soft iron that tolerates said method well and isn't hard to get right
* use of the cap iron (in combination with the soft iron, it will encourage a user not to do most of their planing making tiny feathers of wood)

Then, after that, the V11 type stuff - or equivalent if one comes along - (or you just make said equivalent like me) is just better. Not necessary if the above is mastered, but better. Less effort, sharper per foot of use, will never rust, etc. 

There will still be people who prefer the plainest softest iron out of ease of sharpening, but that's an issue for them to contend with. If they think about planing 10 times for each time they actually plane, then it's not that detrimental. 

As far as waxing goes, one can take a stick of gulf canning wax and gradually round over the end in use so that it's smooth, but rounded over like a scythe anvil. The each time it's used, it will make a uniform 2" wide stripe from the back of the plane to the front in a single swipe. Coverage is better than scribbling, and it's satisfyingly lazy without having to make some strange bench fixture. Continued use maintains that scythe anvil-like shape - smooth, but curved a little in the thickness of the wax. 

I wonder how many people lift the wax and avoid touching the iron with it out of fear of damaging an edge. I'll bet many do, but such damage will never occur.


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## D_W (25 Oct 2019)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> David, that was a great testing marathon you put in. I know of none like that. Of course, there are not many as .. ahem ... dedicated ... as you!
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



You know as well as many why I get carried away wanting bulletproof...well...proof of something!

But I got both Bill and I quieted down (dogging LV's obscure communication of their data on the V11 page) in one shot, and that's an accomplishment!


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## JohnCee (11 Nov 2019)

thetyreman":qx5afgmh said:


> bp122":qx5afgmh said:
> 
> 
> > thetyreman":qx5afgmh said:
> ...


I'm looking at diamond stones myself and would be interested to hear why you'd choose Atoma over DMT. Thanks.


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## thetyreman (11 Nov 2019)

hi john, 

I have used DMT with no problems for 3 years, I have just heard custard on here saying the atoma are the best ones he's ever used and I respect his opinion highly, nout wrong with DMT or EZE lap, they will last forever if well looked after.


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## Bm101 (11 Nov 2019)

JohnCee might interest you generally:
ultex-diamond-stones-t100153.html?hilit=Ultex


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## D_W (11 Nov 2019)

Atomas have diamonds in little piles. They're more precisely graded, but the piles are installed orderly (a nice thing for leveling stoned), in rows. Think of a marching band and looking across the ranks and diagonals. 

You may or may not like that feel in honing something, though - especially on 400 and less - you can feel sort of a zipper type feeling. They are wonderfully flat, though, and not that expensive if you order them directly from japan (now that stu tierney has stopped, just search anywhere - ebay, etc). 

DMTs always seem to have large stray diamonds on them, as do the new ezelaps, and ezelaps can have a seeming crust around the edges (that goes away, just like the large ones on the DMTs). Plastic backed DMTs are nicely flat, ezelaps are close. Both slow down more than the atomas, but that means just expect it - they last in slow mode for a long time, and if you like a 1000 grit water stone-ish kind of thing, expect it with a 600 grit ezelap and something similar for DMT - perhaps both of those will become slightly slower than a strong cutting 1000 grit stone. 

(technique is still more important than all of it, aside from saying that if you're flattening stones with a diamond hone, atoma is the clear winner in my opinion. For regular sharpening, I'd prefer the ultex type stuff - double sided 8x3 for about $25US for the "DMD" branded version of those. They're not perfectly flat, but you probably won't be doing much back work on them, anyway - the finish stone can handle that, and prep for it can be done on sandpaper).


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## JohnCee (12 Nov 2019)

thanks for the info...


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## Dangermouse 2nd (19 Nov 2019)

I use the back of a pig, thats rubbed down with lard, bit like cannibalisum, but it seems to work and the pig likes it ...... (hammer)


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## Osvaldd (27 Nov 2019)

I'm curious what kind of flat stable material do people use with these cheap thin diamond plates.
I have glued mine on to 20mm plywood but it soaked up water and warped. not good.


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## Jacob (27 Nov 2019)

Osvaldd":3nmqb0aq said:


> I'm curious what kind of flat stable material do people use with these cheap thin diamond plates.
> I have glued mine on to 20mm plywood but it soaked up water and warped. not good.


Better by far, cheaper and faster cutting, is thin paper-backed wet n dry used very wet on an impervious surface. Once flooded and well soaked it stays down flatter than cloth backed or glued down.
Good idea to keep the sheets between boards so they stay flat. For a long plane sole just use two sheets end to end. I do mine on my planer bed with white spirit.
I seem to do it most often to old chisel faces which have been slightly dubbed over by previous owner - I guess by flattening on dry sand paper. Otherwise difficult to sharpen and take off the burr.


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## AndyT (27 Nov 2019)

I've got some but rarely use them, so in my case the answer is Nothing.

But if you want something more stable than plywood, then painted softwood, hardwood, tile, stone, steel - whatever you can find. Modern construction adhesive in a cartridge will stick to anything.


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## ED65 (27 Nov 2019)

Osvaldd":2t8l1nae said:


> I'm curious what kind of flat stable material do people use with these cheap thin diamond plates.


As I've mentioned before (this thread I'm sure) I simply clamp mine down to the workbench top. Sure you lose some length but long strokes aren't vital with a diamond plate especially; you can perfectly reasonably hone _across_ stones and plates – made all the more doable with diamonds because they're so abrasive – meaning the length becomes almost irrelevant (making the premium for long plates all the more questionable for many users). 



Osvaldd":2t8l1nae said:


> I have glued mine on to 20mm plywood but it soaked up water and warped. not good.


If you're gonna use water ya gotta use a waterproof substrate. Although perhaps this indicates you're using a little too much liquid most cheaper WBP ply, as from the likes of B&Q, is not up to much.

Just to repeat: you can use diamond plates dry and they work perfectly well that way. 

Unlike with stones there is no issue with glazing, the surface can't clog up badly and it's the work of moments to clean if you're doing a lot of work in one session. The swarf doesn't cling when it's dry, you can just wipe it off with kitchen paper. Or sweep off with a dirty-jobs brush, or lift it off using a strong magnet inside a plastic bag. 

If it's felt necessary you can do a deep clean with a wad of kitchen paper wet with white spirit about once or twice a year, after which your plates will look virtually new again. But this is a cosmetic thing, the difference in cutting between slightly grubby looking and totally clean is unnoticeable. At least from 1,000 grit and on down.


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## Rich C (27 Nov 2019)

I have a couple stuck to MDF. I haven't had any warping, but they're not my main stones either.



Jacob":2amuo34n said:


> Better by far, cheaper and faster cutting, is thin paper-backed wet n dry used very wet on an impervious surface. Once flooded and well soaked it stays down flatter than cloth backed or glued down.


I wouldn't call sandpaper cheaper, or better for that matter.

Thin diamond plates cost £3-4 each and last for months to years. Sandpaper lasts hardly any time at all, a few weeks maybe? Also, you can't tear a diamond plate if it gets snagged.


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## Bedrock (27 Nov 2019)

I have used the Axminster self-adhesive diamond plates for around 3 years or so, stuck to a granite tile from a local tile supplier, which is as flat as I am ever likely to need. Can't remember the cost - depends on the size, but not an arm and a leg.


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## Osvaldd (27 Nov 2019)

I have some kitchen tiles but none are flat, there's either a hollow or a bump in them.


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## Jacob (27 Nov 2019)

Rich C":34kgy2ae said:


> .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yebbut how often do you need to flatten the face of a chisel (i.e. the first 10mm or so) or the sole of a plane? For me - once in the lifetime of the tool. Doesn't tear or get snagged and it is silicon carbide not any old "sand".
I wouldn't use it for routine sharpening - just remedial work. Routine: just oil stone.


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## sammy.se (27 Nov 2019)

I've taken the advice on this thread re diamond plates, cheap from Alibaba. 

Really happy with the result!! They cost me between £1.50 - £3 each, I bought a handful, different grits and a couple of different designs. Can't ask for much more really. They were delivered within 3 weeks.

I haven't stock them to anything yet. I have some glass plate which I previously used for the wet n dry paper method. A may epoxy them to that, but for now, I just use them on a table top.

I'll post pics at some point. I did sharpen some kitchen knives was well - hair shaving sharpness achieved !

Really happy - a super sharpening solution for £10 all in!

Just need to sort myself out a cheap stropping solution and autosol. Not got round to that yet.


Edit: got my sharpening threads mixed up. I meant to post this on ED65's thread, here:

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app

Regarding ease, I will probably buy a honing guide at some point, free hand works, but I like knowing I have a consistent angle.






Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## AndyT (27 Nov 2019)

Osvaldd":o8sfwl9h said:


> I have some kitchen tiles but none are flat, there's either a hollow or a bump in them.



I wonder what is the easiest way of flattening them... :wink:


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## Osvaldd (27 Nov 2019)

do tell, Andy, because I don’t know.


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## Rich C (27 Nov 2019)

Jacob":3q08uq99 said:


> Yebbut how often do you need to flatten the face of a chisel (i.e. the first 10mm or so) or the sole of a plane? For me - once in the lifetime of the tool. Doesn't tear or get snagged and it is silicon carbide not any old "sand".
> I wouldn't use it for routine sharpening - just remedial work. Routine: just oil stone.


You can call it whatever you like, it's still sand by another name. I'm yet to see a wet and dry paper that won't tear, especially when saturated with water. 

Regardless, you can get a set of diamond plates for the cost of a pack of wet and dry and that's before we even get into buying oilstones.

Much cleaner in use too.


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## Trevanion (27 Nov 2019)

AndyT":133iy85u said:


> Osvaldd":133iy85u said:
> 
> 
> > I have some kitchen tiles but none are flat, there's either a hollow or a bump in them.
> ...



Surface grinder with a diamond wheel? 



:wink:


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## Ttrees (27 Nov 2019)

Pain in the ar#e they are! was using the 300g today after hitting a staple.
Mostly I find them useful for reducing the camber using the corners but they keep tipping.
I have some narrow granite pieces somewhere and plenty of epoxy and a stone grinding disc for the angle grinder so must do it soon.
I like the ones bonded to the steel plates, as I only have space for two stones, this one will be a bit awkward to put away compared to an Ultex or whatever.


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## Jacob (28 Nov 2019)

Rich C":358tbatq said:


> Jacob":358tbatq said:
> 
> 
> > Yebbut how often do you need to flatten the face of a chisel (i.e. the first 10mm or so) or the sole of a plane? For me - once in the lifetime of the tool. Doesn't tear or get snagged and it is silicon carbide not any old "sand".
> ...


It doesn't tear if you do it right. White spirit, not water. Water causes rust.


> Regardless, you can get a set of diamond plates for the cost of a pack of wet and dry and that's before we even get into buying oilstones.
> 
> Much cleaner in use too.


 Yes to messy. Copious supply of oily rags required. I use wet n dry just for remedial work , not routine sharpening, and a pack lasts for years. Typically about 25p a sheet. Two sheets 80 grit and you can flatten a no.7 sole quickly and easily - if you've got a big enough impermeable flat surface to put them on
For sharpening oilstones are cheapest option by far - they last for life.


----------



## Rich C (28 Nov 2019)

Jacob":84l7d50o said:


> It doesn't tear if you do it right. White spirit, not water. Water causes rust.


Sure if you're Jacob who has the _way of the sharpener_. But for a new woodworker, they are far from foolproof.



Jacob":84l7d50o said:


> Yes to messy. Copious supply of oily rags required. I use wet n dry just for remedial work , not routine sharpening, and a pack lasts for years. Typically about 25p a sheet. Two sheets 80 grit and you can flatten a no.7 sole quickly and easily - if you've got a big enough impermeable flat surface to put them on
> For sharpening oilstones are cheapest option by far - they last for life.


The cleaner was in referenece to oilstones, but also applies to wet and dry I suppose.

Cost of an oilstone is what, £30? Plus oil.

Cost of a diamond plate, £3. You can buy ten of them before the oilstone has even broken even, and there's no ongoing cost for oil either. I wouldn't say oilstones are by far the cheaper. Even if the plates only last a year, you probably spend that on oil in a year for the oilstone.


----------



## Jacob (28 Nov 2019)

Rich C":1e3kdr6o said:


> Jacob":1e3kdr6o said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't tear if you do it right. White spirit, not water. Water causes rust.
> ...


Nonsense. You just need to have a go - it's not radical or difficult. The paper needs to be thin so that it soaks up white spirit and stays flat, and the surface flooded before you put it down. It stays down beautifully flat, stuck by surface tension. Has to be flat sheet to start with - no bends or rucks, and the flat impermeable surface has to be good. I use planer bed, but thick glass would do it. Perhaps formica on ply? I haven't tried it. 


Jacob":1e3kdr6o said:


> ...
> Cost of an oilstone is what, £30? Plus oil.
> 
> Cost of a diamond plate, £3. You can buy ten of them before the oilstone has even broken even, and there's no ongoing cost for oil either. I wouldn't say oilstones are by far the cheaper. Even if the plates only last a year, you probably spend that on oil in a year for the oilstone.


Oil expense is next to nothing. I use 3in1 half n half with white spirit. It is worth using on diamond plates too - they cut faster, the swarf wipes off more easily and they probably will last longer.


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## nabs (28 Nov 2019)

Jacob you seem to have succumbed to some weird modern fetish about white spirts and wet and dry sandpaper - this is most out of character! I was going to give the old w+d another go (like everyone else I find it rips apart with in minutes when I try it) but now I see that the secret to your success is the addition of a planer bed. I haven't got one of those, sadly - am I destined to never learn the error of my ways*?

*semi serious comment - The best sandpaper method I have found is those big long rolls of sandpaper pinned down with clamps (actually pritt stick is surprisingly effective at holding long lengths of paper down too).


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## FatmanG (28 Nov 2019)

The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it. [/b]

I'm staggered to read that comment. :shock:


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## thetyreman (28 Nov 2019)

somebody needs to do a scientific comparison of the £3 diamond plate vs an atoma made in japan.


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## Jacob (28 Nov 2019)

nabs":attwkqkx said:


> Jacob you seem to have succumbed to some weird modern fetish about white spirts and wet and dry sandpaper - this is most out of character! I was going to give the old w+d another go (like everyone else I find it rips apart with in minutes when I try it) but now I see that the secret to your success is the addition of a planer bed. I haven't got one of those, sadly - am I destined to never learn the error of my ways*?
> 
> *semi serious comment - The best sandpaper method I have found is those big long rolls of sandpaper pinned down with clamps (actually pritt stick is surprisingly effective at holding long lengths of paper down too).


Any flat impermeable surface will do. 
There's no mystery about wet n dry and flattening - I first heard about it about 55 years ago - having to flatten the cylinder-head face of a BSA Bantam (as far as I recall!)
The weirdest modern fetish is in the belittling of tried and tested old techniques in favour of modern alternatives which are expensive and often inferior.
n.b. "sticking" the stuff down is simply not as flat as "wetting" it down


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## nabs (28 Nov 2019)

Jacob":m39ox065 said:


> n.b. "sticking" the stuff down is simply not as flat as "wetting" it down


true - I meant using pritt stick it in addition to the clamps - the clamps hold it taught and the pritt stick to help preventing it from "riding up" around the blade/sole etc

Re your BSA, coincidentally I am restoring an old Honda c90 and have just done the top end - I do plan to hone the cylinder head surface and will be using a (wet) bit of wet and dry sandpaper!


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## Jacob (28 Nov 2019)

nabs":2kp5wb0b said:


> Jacob":2kp5wb0b said:
> 
> 
> > n.b. "sticking" the stuff down is simply not as flat as "wetting" it down
> ...


There you go then! Thing is to apply the cylinder head to the wet paper on a flat impermeable surface, not the other way round. Thin paper-backed wet n dry is designed for the job.
It's not what RichC calls "the way of the sharpener" :lol: it's just a simple obvious technique which a 5 year old could manage!


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## ED65 (28 Nov 2019)

sammy.se":3ioh7bgh said:


> Just need to sort myself out a cheap stropping solution and autosol. Not got round to that yet.


Not my favourite but you can load the factory surface of MDF with stropping compound and just use that. The planed surface of a piece of hardwood can be used too, so for the fastest strop going just reach into the scrap bin  

I'm fond on cloth-faced strops myself (mine use a strip of denim stuck down with PVA) but hard strops can work very well and I have one of those too, loaded with diamond paste which was also bought inexpensively from AliExpress.



sammy.se":3ioh7bgh said:


> Regarding ease, I will probably buy a honing guide at some point, free hand works, but I like knowing I have a consistent angle.


I would persevere with freehanding for a couple of reasons, one of which is the actual angle doesn't matter much! 

If you want or need a guide though remember way back on page 4 of this thread I linked to a honing guide that can be built from scraps. That basic type is very very capable and well worth the few minutes it would take to make.


----------



## AndyT (28 Nov 2019)

ED65":1ubvxvbp said:


> Not my favourite but you can load the factory surface of MDF with stropping compound and just use that.



I find that so effective I've not tried anything else (apart from the leather strop I made, before I read about using MDF and Autosol on here.) Thanks to Racers and anyone else spreading the word!

(You only need the tiniest smear of polish. A single tube should last for years.)


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## ED65 (28 Nov 2019)

Rich C":1a3vre73 said:


> Cost of an oilstone is what, £30? Plus oil.
> 
> Cost of a diamond plate, £3. You can buy ten of them before the oilstone has even broken even, and there's no ongoing cost for oil either. I wouldn't say oilstones are by far the cheaper. Even if the plates only last a year, you probably spend that on oil in a year for the oilstone.


You have a point. If someone laid in 10 cheap plates right now and each one lasted only five years even the youngest member here would likely never need to buy again. Actually there's every reason to suppose that diamond plates can last as much as 10 years, so a stock of five would see most people out.

To be fair to Jacob's point though, the type of oilstone he recommends most often has a vitrified bond like a Norton and those are famous for how long they last. It would be virtually impossible for a user to wear one out in their lifetime, so for most they genuinely are a multi-generational purchase.




FatmanG":1a3vre73 said:


> The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it. [/b]
> 
> I'm staggered to read that comment. :shock:


Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time. This does have some specific disadvantages; it needlessly wastes steel for one, and it increases the risk of a less-experienced user altering the edge profile unintentionally. But on the other hand it does ensure anyone following his practices to the letter will never fail to remove the wear bevel even if they have the bad habit of leaving their honing interval too long. 

So plus and minus. But for the typical user I can promise you if you do some comparative tests you'll find you don't need to touch the bevel to a coarser plate in the normal course of your work. 

Even minor damage doesn't require it. I nicked/dented a chisel edge the other day by repeatedly running it into a stub of nail I didn't know was there and even with this I didn't need to reach for my coarsest plate. In fact I repaired the edge on my 1,000. Because diamonds are awesome 8) 




thetyreman":1a3vre73 said:


> somebody needs to do a scientific comparison of the £3 diamond plate vs an atoma made in japan.


Nah. Just buy a £3 plate and use it. See if _you _think it doesn't, ah, cut it; your opinion on the matter is all that really counts. 

What if some well-respected bod did such a comparison and the cheapie was resoundingly trounced, would this actually devalue your hands-on experience with yours? When you can raise a burr in 10 strokes or less, be putting your tool back to use in under three minutes, would you think you have a legitimate need of better?


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## ED65 (28 Nov 2019)

AndyT":3sjekq0t said:


> (You only need the tiniest smear of polish. A single tube should last for years.)


Yup! I fully load my strop surface for OCD reasons and still I've used an unnoticeable amount of polish in the last five years. 

I'd say even a very heavy user would get a decade from a tube of polish of the usual size. If you load the strop with a block of honing compound like the typical green stuff I think one of those could last a lifetime.


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## Jacob (28 Nov 2019)

ED65":3tgb5rlp said:


> ....
> Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time.


Not quite sure what you mean - what is "the full progression"? I think what I do is the same - hone at 30º, dip as you go. Sort of combined "primary" and "secondary" bevel ( to use popular modern sharpeners' expressions)


> This does have some specific disadvantages; it needlessly wastes steel for one, and it increases the risk of a less-experienced user altering the edge profile unintentionally.


It does neither. As usual with modern sharpeners, you are over-thinking a very simple procedure.


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## Trevanion (28 Nov 2019)

Jacob":3avrofgy said:


> ED65":3avrofgy said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



I see exactly what ED65 means, he's saying that when Paul goes to sharpen a chisel, he always starts at the coarsest grit and works his way up, every time. Whilst realistically with most chisels that have worn and become dull you can give them a quick once over on the fine stone (Or medium if it's really dulled) and be straight back at it rather than start at square one every time and waste steel getting it back to where it was before you even begun sharpening it. 

Imagine if you wanted to sharpen up your chisel and you started on the coarse wet 'n dry every time rather than just giving it a quick once-over on the oilstone. Basically making it worse before it gets better every time.



Jacob":3avrofgy said:


> It does neither. As usual with modern sharpeners, you are over-thinking a very simple procedure.



I think this is rather a snarky comment towards someone who also freehand sharpens just like yourself, just using diamond plates rather than oil stones.

It would help if you actually read posts sometimes...


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## Jacob (28 Nov 2019)

Trevanion":3iyu4rex said:


> Jacob":3iyu4rex said:
> 
> 
> > ED65":3iyu4rex said:
> ...


OK read it. Yes you are right, and I do it the other way - start with finest grit and only move on to coarser if the burr doesn't come up pronto.
Just checked the Sellers vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN4yr7vp4I4 it's OK but I'd start with the finest plate and only do the other ops if really necessary.
Interestingly - every new chisel I've ever bought has that slight hollow face, which makes them very easy to sharpen. Never so easy as the first time in fact. Only exception was a cheapo Faithful "carving" set, which were dog rough but usable in the end.


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## Bm101 (28 Nov 2019)

No wonder you don't you bother using your sorby pro edge with all that wet n dry and white spirit lying about Jacob. 

That'd be mad eh?


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## Jacob (28 Nov 2019)

Bm101":1pnf977k said:


> No wonder you don't you bother using your sorby pro edge with all that wet n dry and white spirit lying about Jacob.
> 
> That'd be mad eh?


For me the wet n dry is for flattening chisel faces (just the first 15 mm or so) when they've been dubbed over a bit (i.e. bought old second hand) or plane soles occasionally. 
Sorby Proedge no use for either but good for damaged bevels and turning gouges. TBH it doesn't do anything you couldn't do with a plywood disc + sand paper on the outboard end of lathe, but it's handy!


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## thetyreman (29 Nov 2019)

I like to use scary sharp methods using 3m microlapping film for any serious blade flattening, I used to use wet n dry and found it too frustrating the edges round over and it doesn't stick down properly, it's a much cleaner and better solution and it lasts 3-6 months of use, very inexpensive longterm solution, all you need is some float glass and to buy a few grits, ideal system before you get diamond stones (which stay forever flat) #foreverflat


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## Bm101 (29 Nov 2019)

Jacob":1qmncsjx said:


> For me the wet n dry is for flattening chisel faces (just the first 15 mm or so) when they've been dubbed over a bit (i.e. bought old second hand) or plane soles occasionally.
> Sorby Proedge no use for either...


I do the backs on the proedge Jacob. Take the bed off and lay it in carefully from the side by hand with a fine grit. 
Rest it square on the side and 'lower'the business end onto the belt.
Wouldn't advocate it if someone is not confident and you need to apply pressure carefully but it works well if you are delicate.


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## ED65 (29 Nov 2019)

Thank you Trevanion. I know we know Jacob has form for this but good grief he can't 'alf read selectively when it suits him. I recommended someone persevere with freehanding not four posts previously!


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## JohnCee (1 Dec 2019)

Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.


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## thetyreman (1 Dec 2019)

JohnCee":28h1fukh said:


> Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.


 
I have used japanese laminated blades on my DMT stones and there's not been problems here, it's a load of rubbish from what I've experienced.


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## JohnCee (1 Dec 2019)

thetyreman":2bfpnsi3 said:


> JohnCee":2bfpnsi3 said:
> 
> 
> > Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.
> ...



Thanks, that's good to know.


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## D_W (2 Dec 2019)

thetyreman":6xwfpdf3 said:


> JohnCee":6xwfpdf3 said:
> 
> 
> > Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.
> ...



some of the ultra high japanese planes and chisels (which are, in my opinion, bumping up against a potentially troublesome line of hardness vs. toughness - toughness being the chip preventing property) will fracture if they are sharpened with crystolon stones or diamonds in medium and low grit. 

I haven't run into anything yet that has an issue with small diamonds. 

If you have something widely available for chisels and not bumping up against those limits, you may still find trouble with retention a time or two after grinding on coarse diamonds, but probably not with anything else. The real issue with diamonds and chisels is that most plates fail from diamonds being pulled out of the matrix over time. The big ones go first (thus the instant loss of tooth in cutting that you feel over the first dozen or so uses and then much slower decline), but the rest gradually get pulled. The harder steel is, the more likely the diamonds are to remain in their electroplate fixture. It's difficult to avoid introducing soft steel or iron to a diamond hone. I don't think it's a deal breaker, but generally don't find diamonds necessary with any japanese tools.

Long story short, most japanese tools won't have any issues with diamonds in ordinary use. But there are some higher end tools that don't tolerate some of the more aggressive coarse modern abrasives. If you're asking "what's high end?", it's generally tokyo (and now tokyo style) blacksmiths and offshoots from them who make ultra hard tools. Kiyotada, etc - things you're not likely to chance upon if you're buying from retailers of new tools these days.


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## thetyreman (4 Dec 2019)

oops, I misread it and didn't see you'll be using chisels, I meant for japanese laminated plane blades, the 2mm thick ones designed to replace O1 steel blades, my diamond stones seem ok with them.


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## FatmanG (13 Dec 2019)

D_W":1t06adcc said:


> Rich C":1t06adcc said:
> 
> 
> > D_W":1t06adcc said:
> ...



I think the difference between you and Paul Sellers is by your own admission is you're a fanatical sharpener where he is a fanatical craftsman/woodworker. His work is out there for all to see. Paul is teaching inexperienced woodworker's the basics but even so he still is able to give out correct advice always. As a student gains experience he is able to hone his skill in every aspect he is taught. I'm sick and tired of seeing Paul being dismissed like some you tube silly person who talks rubbish. Nobody is perfect but I feel whether you disagree with the minutiae or not he deserves respect. Imho


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## ED65 (13 Dec 2019)

Yes it's easy to take pot shots at people in the public eye, please take it on faith that's not what I'm doing here. 

But you see this is part of the problem:


FatmanG":2fyjkp9y said:


> Paul is teaching inexperienced woodworker's the basics but even so he still is able to give out correct advice always.


Unfortunately he doesn't. 



FatmanG":2fyjkp9y said:


> ...but I feel whether you disagree with the minutiae or not he deserves respect.


This is not just a matter of minutia. Sharpening is a cornerstone aspect of the craft he is striving to help people with (largely successfully I might add) and good work can fail or succeed on the strength of it. 

Sellers's method can certainly work – it obviously works for him and it has undeniably helped a great many people get much better edges, including yours truly – but commenters are free to point out that there are issues with it for the newbie and learner, and that there are superior techniques (better results faster) that one can aspire to.


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## sammy.se (13 Dec 2019)

As a total newbie sharpener, I started with the Paul sellers sandpaper method, and it was ok. But, based on advice on this forum, I tried using diamond stones, that is much easier and faster, and costs the same (maybe cheaper in the long term).

So as a beginner, diamond stones all the way. Paul sellers also uses diamond stones, to be fair. But I'm glad he teaches various methods. 

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## FatmanG (13 Dec 2019)

*


FatmanG":ml3b9e4c said:



The method that sellers uses is foolish - avoid it.

Click to expand...

*


FatmanG":ml3b9e4c said:


> I'm staggered to read that comment. :shock:


Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time. This does have some specific disadvantages; it needlessly wastes steel for one, and it increases the risk of a less-experienced user altering the edge profile unintentionally. But on the other hand it does ensure anyone following his practices to the letter will never fail to remove the wear bevel even if they have the bad habit of leaving their honing interval too long. 

So plus and minus. But for the typical user I can promise you if you do some comparative tests you'll find you don't need to touch the bevel to a coarser plate in the normal course of your work. 

Even minor damage doesn't require it. I nicked/dented a chisel edge the other day by repeatedly running it into a stub of nail I didn't know was there and even with this I didn't need to reach for my coarsest plate. In fact I repaired the edge on my 1,000. Because diamonds are awesome 8) [/b]

He shows how to sharpen/restore tools he buys cheap usually off ebay. He shows how to get cheap aldi chisels ready from out of the packet. He is teaching inexperienced users the basics of how to get a tool sharp to use. You have to recognize the target audience if he responded like some have on here to the OP question nobody would ever pick up a tool. Why people try and pull others down to try and make themselves look superior is like the man who drives a rolls to mask the size of his nobbly bit or worse just a jealous wannabe IMHO. Disagree with some one by all means but calling him a fool isn't on. I wonder how those apprentice with autism he's training feel being mentored by a fool. Where's the respect in this world gone?


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## FatmanG (13 Dec 2019)

ED65":33f8fii3 said:


> Yes it's easy to take pot shots at people in the public eye, please take it on faith that's not what I'm doing here.
> 
> But you see this is part of the problem:
> 
> ...


I accept your not taking potshots I respect you for saying so. I have studied woodworking at length unable to get out of bed for years and Paul's methods are the very best out there IMO I would be happy to view any you may think that are superior please post me a link. If its a case of I say so believe me guv then that's just a case of hot air for me my body may of got battered but my eyesight works. I'm now putting into practice what I've studied and its working verbatim


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## D_W (13 Dec 2019)

FatmanG":348pkpz8 said:


> I think the difference between you and Paul Sellers is by your own admission is you're a fanatical sharpener where he is a fanatical craftsman/woodworker. His work is out there for all to see. Paul is teaching inexperienced woodworker's the basics but even so he still is able to give out correct advice always. As a student gains experience he is able to hone his skill in every aspect he is taught. I'm sick and tired of seeing Paul being dismissed like some you tube Silly person who talks rubbish. Nobody is perfect but I feel whether you disagree with the minutiae or not he deserves respect. Imho



Paul Sellers has been instructing mostly beginners and intermediate woodworkers for more than 30 years. That's been, as far as I know, his main source of income. 

Before that, he trained as a joiner. Not as a cabinetmaker or instrument maker. 

I don't have a specific case for something paul says where it gets different scrutiny than what anyone else would say, but there are true makers in this world. Paul is not a fanatical maker. he is a pontificator and a sometimes maker and he's managed to get a piece in the white house that it appears others contributed on. Without a relationship and living in texas, it's not on the same level as most of the stuff in the whitehouse.

There are fanatical makers, to use your terms. I am an amateur maker, not a fanatical maker. I also wouldn't have the patience to teach people, so my hat's off to him for that. 

George Wilson is a fanatical maker - still around, and if you have a question about design or truly fine work, he can be called and consulted for free. And even to the point that it may not be historically accurate, George does his work end to end, from stock to finish. 

I'm sure there are many like George, but they are not accessible to us because they're too busy making. George is accessible to people like me because he was a fanatical maker and age and wear and tear has reduced the number of hours he can physically work in a given day. He's happy to spend the surplus talking if you have serious questions. 

I know that it bothers people sometimes to find out that their favorite sources of information aren't really that accomplished. As a maker, I've never seen anything to suggest that Paul has done fine work. I've never seen fine work done by Chris Schwarz (but in the united states, you can get yourself absolutely flamed if you say that - some of that has blown over). When you go up the ladder to the fine makers, like people who work in the Headley, Peter Ross, etc (among those who are really masters at a craft and still working - I'm sure there are many in each generation). Not all of them have the disposition to teach rudimentary thing year after year.


----------



## dannyr (13 Dec 2019)

"sharpening"? but then, why shouldn't the conversation drift?

I enjoy reading some Paul Sellers stuff - the world could do with a few more of his general outlook. BUT - he can be somewhat dogmatic, doesn't easily accept some other views. For example, I once praised his work and a made a very minor point about a difficulty with an aspect of his design - came down on me like a ton of bricks. Ah well - I'll still read some of his stuff, but not bother to get into any dialogue - praise is what seems to be wanted. Still - if he has a caring outlook, which he does, if he loves nature and treads lightly, if he inspires some, then maybe he has helped to make the world a better place.

Likewise Chris Schwartz (sp?) - a fine publisher, including books on both rustic and 'fine' wood making. I think he does some interesting work on analysing the making of benches, tool-boxes, and some unsophisticated but fit-for-purpose furniture using the tools of 'experimental archaeology'. I think he is more self-aware about his place in the world of wood and tools than Sellers.

I think the world would be a poorer place without them both, and the 'fine' makers you, D_W, mention (eg - I greatly admire Wilson's skill, but the product is not to my taste - but I won't argue with anyone if they love it -- 'enjoy', as they say).
d


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## ED65 (14 Dec 2019)

FatmanG":3vinjgsd said:


> He shows how to sharpen/restore tools he buys cheap usually off ebay. He shows how to get cheap aldi chisels ready from out of the packet. He is teaching inexperienced users the basics of how to get a tool sharp to use.


In one of the Q&As he used to post on YouTube he answered a viewer question about day-to-day or routine sharpening and what's necessary and he said to do the full sharpening routine, every time. As I say above this does ensure anyone following his practices to the letter will never fail to remove the wear bevel which is not an uncommon issue in learner sharpening; but like I go on to say if you do some comparisons you will find it's not necessary. Ergo it does needlessly waste steel and time.



FatmanG":3vinjgsd said:


> Why people try and pull others down to try and make themselves look superior...


Hang on a second, I don't see anyone doing that. 



FatmanG":3vinjgsd said:


> Disagree with some one by all means but calling him a fool isn't on.


Saying a method is foolish or that something is a fool's errand is _not _calling the person espousing whatever it is a fool.


----------



## ED65 (14 Dec 2019)

FatmanG":2dk2yu4h said:


> I have studied woodworking at length unable to get out of bed for years and Paul's methods are the very best out there IMO I would be happy to view any you may think that are superior please post me a link.


That's super, so presumably you've read Sellers's first book. Seek out a copy of Steve Branam's "Hand Tool Basics" (your local library system may have a copy) and be suitably amazed by the contrast, both in terms of quality of content and in the design and layout of the book itself. This is perhaps an unfair comparison as I consider Branam's book possibly the best on the subject. Shout out to Chris Tribe's book which is also excellent, and also a superior learning tool IMO.



FatmanG":2dk2yu4h said:


> I'm now putting into practice what I've studied and its working verbatim


Fair enough. 

Unlike D_W I don't care if Paul Sellers is a fine maker or not; you can get good instruction from people who aren't at what some would consider the peak of their field – in fact aren't we're often _forced to_, in any area of interest? – and there's much of what he shows and demonstrates that I don't think people should have qualms with, it being good solid advice. Sharpening is not one of these however. Again, not because it doesn't work. But you can aspire to better, and spend less time doing it each and every time so you get much more than a twofold benefit.

So my main point is that X and Y can work without them being the final word on something.

And another excellent example would be the smooth plane and how to use it to its full potential. Now fair warning this IS a pot shot at Sellers: he obviously was never taught to use the cap iron properly, and never picked up a copy of the "Planecraft" booklet which concisely lays out how to use it (although perhaps undersells the great importance of it).

So _"55 years of experience"_ or no he is not the person to get you fully up to speed on that aspect of using a plane. Re-familiarise yourself with his advice on smooth planing and then compare and contrast to someone who is using the cap iron properly. Rather ironically, you'd do a lot worse than to listen to D_W here on that front.


----------



## FatmanG (14 Dec 2019)

Fellas I have no qualms in you disagreeing with him nor do I believe he is the messiah my issue is him being called a fool as if he talks rubbish. I will look at the advice offered many thanks. Anything that will help me improve my skills I'm definitely interested in. My last word on Sellers is he may not be the person I think he is or he portrays but i cannot forget unknowingly he helped me for free get through some dark days maybe that's why I'm defensive of him.


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## Trevanion (14 Dec 2019)

ED65":1dm1li7f said:


> So _"55 years of experience"_ or no he is not the person to get you fully up to speed on that aspect of using a plane.



The whole "I've got XX years of experience" has always bugged me, not with Sellers but with just people in general thinking that it actually means anything. If you haven't been constantly improving and expanding your skills and knowledge for that lets say that 55 years and all your knowledge was really gained in the first 5 years I think you can really only say you've got 5 years of experience, 50 years of practicing it. I've seen many of the older guys in Joinery do the whole "I've got XX years of experience me, I'm pretty much a master at this and know everything" and absolutely do a horrendous job of what they're supposed to do, usually cost far more for their "experience" than any other young buck who might even have more experience than the old fellow. Usually, if someone gets like that with me and starts spouting the whole "I've got XX years of experience so I know what I'm on about!" I like to respond with something like "Well, What did you do in those XX years? Ever made an opening louvered oval window? Double curvature boxed sash?" And the usual response is "Uh, oh, Umm... No."

As for Sellers, I don't think you can get much better for the fundamental basics of the craft, but he can be quickly outgrown and students move onto more complex work and teachings elsewhere. You can't really say anything he shows is _wrong persay_ as it all works to a degree, but it can be vastly improved upon as mentioned above.


----------



## thetyreman (14 Dec 2019)

what sellers is doing is called pitching, he's pitching himself and selling himself and putting his name out there, he has to do it or it'd just come across in the wrong way, I can get over him saying the same thing again because of the value he brings and lets not forget the vast majority of it is free! you will never please all of the people all of the time.


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## thetyreman (14 Dec 2019)

D_W":juvhy0mx said:


> FatmanG":juvhy0mx said:
> 
> 
> > Before that, he trained as a joiner. Not as a cabinetmaker or instrument maker.



so did chippendale! I think it's essential to understand joinery in cabinetmaking.


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## Lons (14 Dec 2019)

What a strange world we live in now where it's so easy to put down anyone who we don't agree with or dislike, youtube and the internet have revolutionised the way we gather information but the downside of that is misinformation, often bad and sometimes dangerous practice and is very sad really.

When only books were available and even then expensive and not always easy to get hold of we would buy one, maybe two and work through them, now we don't need any though some of us still love leafing through pages, the info we want is there at the touch of a button and can be overwhelming to a beginner however surely we are all intelligent enough to look at all the different viewpoints and pick the most sensible which are often the most used methods.

We don't need arguments or fall outs over sharpening methods do we fellas? :lol:

If there was only one way to do something though that's often vehemently stated by the odd person about sharpening methods then that's exactly the way we all would be doing it, wouldn't we? :wink:


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## Ttrees (14 Dec 2019)

Trevanion":2eo3n7z6 said:


> As for Sellers, I don't think you can get much better for the fundamental basics of the craft, but he can be quickly outgrown and students move onto more complex work and teachings elsewhere. You can't really say anything he shows is _wrong persay_ as it all works to a degree, but it can be vastly improved upon as mentioned above.


I beg to differ Trevanion,
The absolute worst of the worst is that plane rehab video.
That should be taken down.
I learned the hard way on how to do this right.
Pure bad form, really throwing his plane out of whack by those lapping shenanigans,
I do realise over 99% of videos of this procedure are also showing incorrect methods, but folks actually listen and copy Sellers, after all he has shown some skills.

Planing isn't one of them though, which is evident from the get go watching him plane long timbers unsupported, and in a vice? 
Perfect.....ya right, cringeworthy those antics are.

Ever seen his attempts to do the opposite of the textbooks, lifting the back of the plane =D> 
Grasping at straws that is.
Charlesworth is known for demonstrating and explaining the most clearly, light years ahead of anyone else, and demonstrates lifting the plane in an exaggerated fashion for newbies to understand and not waste their timber.

After watching Charlesworth check out David Weaver for cap iron demonstrations.
No one else has really done as good a job as these two guys.

I wouldn't be so damming if Sellers had removed that video, or at least bothered to realise 
that it is detrimental to the tool, and acknowledged this.
It's not fun making a mess of the plane you have wanted and been saving up for.
Wasting timber is one thing, but damaging you tool is on a *whole other level*

Tom


----------



## thetyreman (14 Dec 2019)

Ttrees":2i19z5fu said:


> Trevanion":2i19z5fu said:
> 
> 
> > As for Sellers, I don't think you can get much better for the fundamental basics of the craft, but he can be quickly outgrown and students move onto more complex work and teachings elsewhere. You can't really say anything he shows is _wrong persay_ as it all works to a degree, but it can be vastly improved upon as mentioned above.
> ...



he's not going to remove the video just specifically for you Tom, that really is ridiculous and not very realistic.


----------



## D_W (14 Dec 2019)

thetyreman":1lm02add said:


> D_W":1lm02add said:
> 
> 
> > FatmanG":1lm02add said:
> ...



I think cabinetmakers probably get plenty of training on joints. My understanding of joiner over there is that it's general, like carpenter or housewright here. 

There's nothing particularly wrong with paul - that's not where I'm going. But he's not in the same class as the folks who have done work for a living vs. teaching. There's no shame in that. The finest workers usually aren't that patient with students, or even apprentices. 

I noticed when I talk to George Wilson that (I have a friendship with George, so it's not always work related) when conversation goes aside and I start asking him questions, he doesn't talk much about method. He talks about results. Design and results, that's about it. 

My travels with sharpening are no more important than anyone else's, except in the case where someone is discussing what they've read vs. what I've done if they have only read stuff that I have done. I think I could teach people to sharpen well, but I'm not sure that I've ever done it in person. It's a different dynamic. 

You know I have this big gimmick with the double iron. It's perhaps the greatest thing to ever happen to planes and users of them who like to work from rough wood. I have shown local people here who have businesses with beginners the effect of the cap iron on curly soft maple taking a huge heavy cut and still leaving a surface that just needs a light smoother pass or two. I have never had any of them say "show me what you did". They just say "my students probably wouldn't grasp that. I teach them to scrape and sand. We only use planes for joints. 

What can you say to that? I have bored people to death with esoteric stuff about stones, but I'm entertaining myself talking about them. They all work. I have my preferences, but my preferences wouldn't be great for beginners.


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## Nigel Burden (14 Dec 2019)

DW, that post hits the nail fairly and squarely on the head. Someone who is a master of a craft usually doesn't have the patience with a student who struggles. It involves being able to take yourself back to their level, especially when a action is automatic. This isn't easy, I know. I am a retired ADI, driving instructor to most, you have to think what am I actually doing when I perform this task, and then put it in simple terms. It requires a lot of patience, and a good few do shout :roll: 

Nigel.


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## thetyreman (14 Dec 2019)

Sellers did make and sell his furniture for a living though, he has mentioned this many times in his blogs, he did this for many years before teaching.


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## FatmanG (14 Dec 2019)

You don't have to be jurgen klopp to teach novices the offside rule. If to be a teacher you have to be the best then there would be no teachers especially if they get slaughtered for doing so. God help the human race then. Its Xmas time for merriment and good will no need to pull anyone down. Not IMO its just not very nice. :ho2


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## D_W (14 Dec 2019)

I thought he drew a salary from a museum.


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2019)

Just watched Sellers vid. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4yVgdVW7s 
Spot on. He does what I do - start 30º and dip for a rounded bevel. So simple and obvious.
I'd start on the fine though and only move coarser if a burr didn't show up very quickly.
Also I use a Norton stone for preference. They are abrasive all the way through and last for life, not just a thin short-lived layer like a diamond stone. Best when worn hollow a bit and produce a camber with no extra effort.


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## MikeG. (14 Dec 2019)

FatmanG":13azo5pb said:


> .....If to be a teacher you have to be the best then there would be no teachers.......



Yep. Roger Federer has a coach. Enrico Caruso had a voice coach.


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## AJB Temple (14 Dec 2019)

Amazed really that a thread on sharpening can take so long. Couple of anecdotes. I worked in Japan for a while and was very interested in high end artisan kitchen knives. Shigs and such like. Learnt to make knives there. Most of the basic sharpening gets done on a massive (about a metre across) water stone and they typically finish on one flat water stone over a water bath. They don't make a song and dance about it, it is all done freehand, and the outcome is sharp enough to split a hair. 

For chisels and plane irons I use whatever I've got to hand. This could be my dad's ancient oil stone, wet and dry, water stones, diamond plate, or the Robert Sorby. Usually use a leather hone and a bit of paste. I don't think it matters much. If I am sharpening for fine work, then I will take extra care. But for normal everyday work, about 10 seconds on the linisher, and a quick strop, and I am good to go. It so happened that today I've had to chop out for fitting 4 mortice locks and 4 spring bolt keepers. All in situ. Chisels got clonked around a bit and were all touched up on the RS as that is in my temporary workshop. I don't love the Sorby but it is quick. I hardly ever use anything other than a very fine belt on it. 

People overthink it much of the time. For kitchen knives I only use the Japanese water stones. But that is largely because I have a sharpening drawer in my kitchen. Knife stuff can get obsessive but I pulled back from that. It's just metal.


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## MikeG. (14 Dec 2019)

AJB Temple":nyarvuip said:


> .......People overthink it much of the time........



Exactly. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tedious.


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## ED65 (15 Dec 2019)

Ttrees":1ps1cal7 said:


> I beg to differ Trevanion,
> The absolute worst of the worst is that plane rehab video.
> That should be taken down.


Oh hey hang on a sec, I'll leap to his defence on that one!



Ttrees":1ps1cal7 said:


> I learned the hard way on how to do this right.


ORLY? If it's different from the way *I* do it how can it be right? </sarcasm>

You see my point I hope.



Ttrees":1ps1cal7 said:


> I wouldn't be so damming if Sellers had removed that video, or at least bothered to realise that it is detrimental to the tool, and acknowledged this.


I don't know if you're into the whole Internet (YouTube especially) tool-restoration thing but the amount of bad stuff being shown to the community, and lapped up by newbies and the inexperienced, and fanboys, is staggering. This includes horrendously damaging techniques – far worse than you're criticising here – that would horrify the majority here, largely seeking cosmetic improvement over functional gain.


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## ED65 (15 Dec 2019)

AJB Temple":mzmbcwql said:


> I don't think it matters much.


Yeah, everything works. I'd hope that this was the take-home message for those new to it or uncertain if they should try something else, but I'm not going to fool myself that this was successful this time any more than previous times. It's so hard to get that across when the noise-to-signal ratio in these threads is so high. 



MikeG.":mzmbcwql said:


> AJB Temple":mzmbcwql said:
> 
> 
> > .......People overthink it much of the time........
> ...


Overthinking it is natural I think, and part of everyone's progression. What I find maddeningly tedious (and I know I'm not the only one) is us having to get into the same repetitive arguments. We all know why. Elephant in the room and all that.


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## Ttrees (15 Dec 2019)

ED65":n4mcfzl5 said:


> Ttrees":n4mcfzl5 said:
> 
> 
> > I beg to differ Trevanion,
> ...



I made two videos on the subject as there was no other videos on how to lap a hand plane correctly.
What I mean by lap a hand plane correctly, is achieving a flat surface.
If the abrasive paper is wider than the surface you intend to lap, then you will create a convex surface.
No amount of skill or techniques will change that.
What you see Sellers doing is eliminating the reference area that you need for doing the job.
I have never seen anyone else doing quite the same damage as this.
Achieving a flat surface is the same principle as stop shavings, as in one needs to remove material from the middle
so its resting on each end, and not see sawing with a changing reference point and creating convexitivity.
This becomes very important if you have a plane with a sole which is thin, also extremely important
if you are restoring a plane with an adjustable mouth, and also very important if you're lapping a jointer or try plane.

If you are lapping a plane that is bad, then the sole will end up convex in both axis by the time the blued/permanent marker is removed.
Like I said I learned the hard way.

Believe me or not, after all I don't have a fancy youtube channel with good lighting and equal camera work and 50 years of experience :lol: 
But at least my videos are there (through this link) for the folks who are wanting accurate results and not wanting to do damage to their plane.
Folks might remember what I have said, even if they choose to use a larger abrasive ala everyone else on the internet.
They will be aware of what the lap achieves and stop doing it the wrong way before it gets too late.
https://youtu.be/w_ux786ODwg
https://youtu.be/3MlE7Nz3eKg

Surprising how many folks don't know this.
Tom


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## MikeG. (15 Dec 2019)

Ttrees":3ug9bf98 said:


> .........I made two videos on the subject as there was no other videos on how to lap a hand plane correctly.
> What I mean by lap a hand plane correctly, is achieving a flat surface.
> If the abrasive paper is wider than the surface you intend to lap, then you will create a convex surface..........



Twaddle. A flat plane of abrasive will not produce a curved surface when something all-but-flat is rubbed on it consistently. The patronising tone of your "I know best" post leaves rather a sour taste, too.



> Surprising how many folks don't know this.



They're correct not to know it, because to the tolerances required for plane soles, it's nonsense.

Why are we back on your hobby horse, when this thread is about sharpening?


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## Ttrees (15 Dec 2019)

It might be because there's more to sharpening than achieving a sharp blade Mike.


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## MikeG. (15 Dec 2019)

Just make sure to bring "fire" doors into it, and the cap iron setting, so we can have the full extent of your obsessions all over again. And no, there isn't more to sharpening than achieving a sharp blade. Words have meanings, and making your own up means you end up talking to yourself.

Have you ever actually made anything, Tom?


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## Ttrees (15 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":1pktzq0i said:


> . And no, there isn't more to sharpening than achieving a sharp blade.


_if you don't care about tearout_


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## woodbloke66 (15 Dec 2019)

Ttrees":12jtc04x said:


> It might be because there's more to sharpening than achieving a sharp blade Mike.


No there isn't; end of story. To agree with what ED65 said above, it's tedious in the extreme to go over and over the same old ground...these 'discussions' have been occurring for years now and similar threads happened with regularity when I first joined UKW ten or more years ago.

A sharp edge is simply the junction between two planes of steel and the finer the 'junction' the sharper the edge. There are a bazillion ways to achieve said junction and one way is as good as the other...the issue is that you have to find the 'way' that works for you, but however you do it, it's not hard - Rob


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## Ttrees (15 Dec 2019)

And they will continue Woodbloke66  
Sharp is useless if the profile is not correct.
This is well within the realms of what I would consider appropriate to discuss
on a thread that is titled...easiest blade and chisel sharpening.

There is plenty of folks here that still aren't aware of the close set cap iron, so it's definitely a valid subject to keep discussing.
By that I mean sharpening techniques on getting that perfect camber.
Sharp might be the subject, but it isn't the challenging part.

Tom


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## AndyT (15 Dec 2019)

Tom, this thread is long enough now.
If you look at the quality of work shown on here by the likes of Mike and Rob, you can see that they must have learned to get their tools sharp enough.

The OP is a beginner, wondering whether to try abrasive paper or diamond plates, not to hear everything there is to say about sharpening.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this forum has lost some of its best contributors who got fed up with the repeated long rambles around sharpening, far removed from giving helpful answers to questions put.


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## Ttrees (15 Dec 2019)

AndyT 
I think most of us have shared their opinions already on what works for them.

_Before I'll be judged for mentioning the word "easy", I do not mean it in terms of effort required. It is to understand what works for most people in my shoes (hobby woodworker, beginner, use hand tools as much as possible and not rely on machine tools)_
I don't see how any of the further in-depth discussions is in anyway unhelpful or would cause folks to get fed up with the site.
I'd safely guess that if a thread was so rigid that it stuck to only what hone, stone or abrasive 
folks were using, It would make for a far less interesting read.

It seems some folk are a bit contradictory about others stating what works for them, and thus leading to more thread derailments.
Tom


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## MikeG. (15 Dec 2019)

Ttrees":3w1lijl6 said:


> And they will continue Woodbloke66
> Sharp is useless if the profile is not correct.
> This is well within the realms of what I would consider appropriate to discuss
> on a thread that is titled...easiest blade and chisel sharpening.
> ...



Do you struggle to understand what people write, Tom? Sharpening is sharpening. That's what I meant when I said that words have meanings. It is absolutely nothing whatever to do with setting/ adjusting, using. This thread, and dozens of others you have wrecked, is about sharpening. Oh, and in case you didn't know, there are plenty of woodworking tools which require sharpening which aren't planes


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## MikeG. (15 Dec 2019)

Ttrees":1oq16ucg said:


> .........I don't see how any of the further in-depth discussions is in anyway unhelpful or would cause folks to get fed up with the site.........



Your failure to understand is blindingly obvious. You don't need to understand. You just need to act on the results. You hose people off enormously by hijacking every damn thread about putting an edge on a piece of steel with endless whittering about other pet subjects, and by endlessly telling people who actually know what they are doing that they are wrong.


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## Ttrees (15 Dec 2019)

Sharpening involves more than getting something sharp.
If that were all it were about, it wouldn't be in anyway interesting.
Why are you reading or posting at all if it were not the case.

Indeed there are other tools apart from plane irons that need to be sharpened.
This is a perfect example of why there's more than meets the eye to getting something sharp.
"Wearable" hones of all descriptions are not excluded from this thread, but I feel if I were to start mentioning stone wear
and maintenance, you might have a problem with it, even though the OP wishes to know what works for most people in BP122's shoes.
What if someone like this finds a skipful of sapele?
Should they just get used to tearout, and scrape their timber flat?
That gets old fast.


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## MikeG. (15 Dec 2019)

Ttrees":2oisis71 said:


> Sharpening involves more than getting something sharp.



Yeah, I thought so. You don't understand simple words.




> If that were all it were about, it wouldn't be in anyway interesting.



It isn't interesting.



> Why are you reading or posting at all if it were not the case.



To try to stop you destroying yet another thread, and to stop you putting off newcomers to the hobby (and to the forum). Your obsessions are ruining other peoples' hobbies.



> What if someone like this finds a skipful of sapele?
> Should they just get used to tearout, and scrape their timber flat?
> That gets old fast.



Great subject for a conversation ......... in a thread about avoiding tearout.* NOT IN A THREAD ABOUT SHARPENING.
*


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## Trevanion (15 Dec 2019)

The simplest tools always seem to have the most complex discussions.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Dec 2019)

However did I guess this would be seventeen pages of groundhog day?


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## woodbloke66 (15 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":5wox1dn0 said:


> Have you ever actually made anything, Tom?


I'm intrigued as well Mike - Rob


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## FatmanG (15 Dec 2019)

I'm new to the forum and haven't been bored to tears yet, I have watched and read countless things about sharpening including toms videos this morning. I get your passion for the subject tom but in trying to help others there are ways and means of going about it and criticising others and being condescending in my opinion isn't a good way of going about it. I want to learn as much as I can as fast as I can I too have passion and come here tom to learn not argue or fall out.


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## FatmanG (15 Dec 2019)

woodbloke66":wjxzn7xi said:


> MikeG.":wjxzn7xi said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever actually made anything, Tom?
> ...


I've just looked through your projects, truly beautiful work mate stunning. I aspire to make my projects as good . =D>


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## thetyreman (15 Dec 2019)

woodbloke66":2dd5n8ce said:


> MikeG.":2dd5n8ce said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever actually made anything, Tom?
> ...



+1 so am I


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2019)

FatmanG":16ddm8mx said:


> You don't have to be jurgen klopp to teach novices the offside rule. If to be a teacher you have to be the best then there would be no teachers especially if they get slaughtered for doing so. God help the human race then. Its Xmas time for merriment and good will no need to pull anyone down. Not IMO its just not very nice. :ho2



I agree - we're talking about two different things. People who excel at teaching others, and those who work at the top of a given craft. There's sometimes intersection of those two. Even when you find your favorite teacher, and they're teaching something that beginners would generally do, you'll find completely different but equally good answers. 

I get the sense that Charlesworth in one of his videos when he talks about an instructor not using guides may be referring to sellers. Maybe sellers has referred to others like charlesworth. 

Neither of those folks uses hand tools for work only (vs. teaching) and if you work with hand tools only long enough, you'll find that neither of their sharpening methods is fast enough for you.


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## Ttrees (15 Dec 2019)

David W
No matter what I've tired, I cannot emulate the method you use for that camber.
My variables on this have just about gone now the stone is flat, I had to flatten the box bottom 
along the way to rule that out just incase.
I have been trying out using my other hand aswell with a bit more success to even out the wear on the stone, but not concrete set that its foolproof.
It wouldn't take long on a diamond hone using the corners, but that's probably bad practice.

I have not long left until I can go back to the washita which is slimmer.
I just want to get more of a feeling for this soft ark whilst its finally flat, and develop a method for me to use up all of the stone.
Tom


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## thetyreman (15 Dec 2019)

D_W":1b1ojdqy said:


> FatmanG":1b1ojdqy said:
> 
> 
> > I get the sense that Charlesworth in one of his videos when he talks about an instructor not using guides may be referring to sellers. Maybe sellers has referred to others like charlesworth.
> ...



then what is the fastest best solution? criticising somebody then not giving solutions is not good enough.


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## D_W (15 Dec 2019)

thetyreman":254h46ii said:


> D_W":254h46ii said:
> 
> 
> > FatmanG":254h46ii said:
> ...



Freehand, machine ground primary bevel - around 20-25 degrees - it doesn't really matter, then second bevel with a single stone and a tiny sliver of a third stone at a bevel slightly higher than the second bevel. 

That's all there is to it. The second bevel gives you decent steel to work with and the ability to establish precise geometry if needed (like on a smoother iron) without having to grind the entire iron into that (through its thickness), and the tertiary bevel (with something very fine and slow cutting - making it any larger than necessary will waste time and cost more sharpening time next iteration). 

The size of the tiny final bevel keeps it from causing wedging problems on chisels, gives you little to have to work (So doing it perfectly is easy), gives a very good finish to the edge in contact with the wood and the slightly higher angle at the final bevel will protect the edge from small nicking (or in the case of a chisel that's too hard or too soft - slightly of either - allow use without rolling or chipping). 

Unlike just about every blog and tutorial on the internet would suggest, it helps if the final stone is slow instead of fast. If the item being sharpened isn't resident in a honing guide, you have the touch and nuance to finish that tiny bevel right at the edge instead of cutting a substantial facet.


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## D_W (15 Dec 2019)

Ttrees":18ilaj5g said:


> David W
> No matter what I've tired, I cannot emulate the method you use for that camber.
> My variables on this have just about gone now the stone is flat, I had to flatten the box bottom
> along the way to rule that out just incase.
> ...



When you say method, do you mean something in an older video? Like working an iron across the length of a stone in a sweep?

Ultimately, a washita used by itself won't be perfectly flat, and most of what contact the ends/corners of the stones is the back of the iron and not the bevel (if the bevel slips off and its the edge of the stone while you're working the bevel side, you'll dent the iron).


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## D_W (15 Dec 2019)

I'll make a video at some point to illustrate what I mentioned in the post above. It's exceedingly simple, it's fast, and it results in a completed sharpening every time. It wouldn't be suitable for beginners, I guess, because you have to know what result you're looking for rather than relying on specific angles. 

Years ago, I was restoring japanese chisels and the japanese mantra is strict - cut a bevel, polish the entire thing. I rarely actually receive used japanese chisels like that, though - they're usually slightly rounded or have a small secondary bevel on them rounded over. 

I love the way a flat chisel bevel looks, but I roll up the last tiny bit on the edge because the chisel just holds up better, and it's perfectly sharp every time. In knife sharpening terms, the very tiny final bevel pushes the failure point further into the rest of the bevel instead of leaving it at the very edge. If you're not abusing the tool, you'll never get that second level failure. 

At any rate, I was talking to a professional woodworker who had ordered chisels from So Yamashita (??) who would set up chisels for pay, and he mentioned that So did the same thing as I do, and said pretty much "it just works better". 

You don't have to be a good woodworker to benefit from this. Here's why:
1) you are guaranteed to be working to the very edge. Whether you're making mediocre items or not, you're better off if you sharpen faster with a higher % completion rate
2) you can finish work straight off of the plane, even if you're a mediocre woodworker (I do, and I'm a mediocre woodworker). Focusing on such a small part right at the edge of the blade gives you uniformity from edge to edge
3) on blades, this is a way to use a very fine slow final stone sacrificing a tiny bit of clearance in exchange for a much stronger initial edge at a higher polish level

The life of the latter before failure is much longer than the former. I actually tested this as part of a recent edge life test - once clearance is 10 degrees or more, polish level dominates in dictating edge life. But nobody wants to go through a 4-8 minute process to get it (neither do I).


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## MikeG. (15 Dec 2019)

Isaac Newton (and Gottfried Liebnitz) developed calculus by looking at the geometry of ever decreasing lengths of straight line that collectively tend towards curves. DW seems to be attempting the same thing, albeit practically rather than through pure mathematical theory. The argument will boil down to how small the nth bevel is, and to when a collection of multiple bevels is in fact a curve. All Sellers* seems to have done is to have cut out the complication and gone straight to the curve**.

Guess what? They all work.



*Not Sellers, of course. Curved "bevels" have been used for centuries. 

**Want a fun variation? I hone a (straight) secondary bevel on chisels, but deliberately strop a curve.


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":2qcuoa7b said:


> ..... All Sellers* seems to have done is to have cut out the complication and gone straight to the curve**... Curved "bevels" have been used for centuries.


Because it's easier and quicker - so that's what everybody did, probably from the stone age onwards. 
The pointless obsession with flat bevels is recent - a follow on from the many little problems the honing jig causes.


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## D_W (15 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":1po2tov9 said:


> Isaac Newton (and Gottfried Liebnitz) developed calculus by looking at the geometry of ever decreasing lengths of straight line tending towards curves. DW seems to be attempting the same thing, albeit practically rather than through pure mathematical theory. The argument will boil down to how small the nth bevel is, and to when a collection of multiple bevels is in fact a curve. All Sellers* seems to have done is to have cut out the complication and gone straight to the curve**.
> 
> Guess what? They all work.
> 
> ...



The geometry isn't what it is as a matter of anything other than minimizing the work done so that you can achieve a finer finish faster than you could with sellers' methods. 

Sellers advocates a method that would be good for a worksite, and decent for roughing.

Any sharpening method works fine if you complete it. What I'm advocating results in completion more often at a higher finish level and less time spent in sharpening. 

Great way to sharpen knife bevels, too. You get a strong edge. I guess the bevel geometry behind the last tiny strip of polish is important on chisels to the extent that a tiny bevel above 30 degrees won't add much resistance, but a full bevel above 30 degrees will add a lot of wedging resistance. 

That's assuming, too, that someone is actually using knives and chisels for significant work (or what's typical for knives, a lot of slicing).


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## MikeG. (15 Dec 2019)

I see Jacob has replied. I thought he was deep in a period of introspection and analysis after stunningly finding that the general populace doesn't agree with him.


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## AndyT (15 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":pjfe4knw said:


> I see Jacob has replied. I thought he was deep in a period of introspection and analysis after stunningly finding that the general populace doesn't agree with him.



...but it seems he was right all along about sharpening!


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## Lons (15 Dec 2019)

AndyT":wztkdgiz said:


> MikeG.":wztkdgiz said:
> 
> 
> > I see Jacob has replied. I thought he was deep in a period of introspection and analysis after stunningly finding that the general populace doesn't agree with him.
> ...


That's debatable :wink:


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## Racers (16 Dec 2019)

I have said this before chaps, there are only 2 ways of doing things, Jacobs way and the wrong way.


Pete


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2019)

Racers":343bctgt said:


> I have said this before chaps, there are only 2 ways of doing things, Jacobs way and the wrong way.
> 
> 
> Pete


It's not "my way" it's the way everybody did it from the very beginnings of sharpening, until it was re-invented by amateurs, hack woodwork journalists and tool/gadget sellers, and became much more difficult, expensive and contentious.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":j6d2yepj said:


> I see Jacob has replied. I thought he was deep in a period of introspection and analysis after stunningly finding that the general populace doesn't agree with him.


Tories got 44% of the vote. The 'remain' parties Lab, Libdem, Green, SNP got 51% of the vote. A divided opposition opened the way for tory minority policies also rejected in NI and probably starting the break up of the United K.


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## Lons (16 Dec 2019)

Jacob":j242kr50 said:


> Racers":j242kr50 said:
> 
> 
> > I have said this before chaps, there are only 2 ways of doing things, Jacobs way and the wrong way.
> ...



Ah the good old days, bring them back and ditch all progress and development, far too expensive and contentious :lol: 
Wouldn't mind an old penny farthing do you still have the one you bought new? :wink:


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2019)

I suppose I should throw away my water stones and diamond plates and go back to the kitchen doorstep. I was good enough for my mother and grandmother, after all.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2019)

phil.p":350cedoh said:


> I suppose I should throw away my water stones and diamond plates and go back to the kitchen doorstep. I was good enough for my mother and grandmother, after all.


I'd throw away your waterstones - I've never used them but by all accounts they are a PITA. I'd carry on with your diamond plates until the diamonds have thinned out, then perhaps look at Norton and similar synthetic or natural stones - they are abrasive all the way through, not just a thin layer on top.
Hope that helps.


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## bp122 (16 Dec 2019)

Hi all

I read up a few pages on the advice, suggestions and recommendations for bits etc, was quite helpful. So I got myself a couple of diamond plates and I was away!
Sharpened my plane (I'm sure I did it in a way which at least half the people here would disagree) and I built my FIRST woodworking project - wooden holdfasts with Oak and a hardwood dowel, followed by tea light holder with Sapele and Oak for my wife's work secret santa, and a bunch of other tea light holders for Christmas presents!

But when I looked at my posts now and then, I always saw the red asterisk on this thread. Hadn't realised I had opened the Pandora's box! I must admit, I haven't read most of the posts after page 6, especially when it went into molecular metallurgy! 

I enjoyed doing my projects very much - indeed mainly because of the tools being sharp that I didn't get frustrated. 

From a beginner's point of view, some of the advice I received were short, concise, to-the-point and downright golden, whilst the others muddied the already murky waters and confused an already confused beginner! - Just to avoid alienating people, I am not going to name names!! :lol: :lol: But the most important thing is, I can finally DO things and MAKE things - which was what I wanted to do all along. 

Once again, thank you all who helped me learn something.


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## Lons (16 Dec 2019)

phil.p":2ecnv5u9 said:


> I suppose I should throw away my water stones and diamond plates and go back to the kitchen doorstep. I was good enough for my mother and grandmother, after all.


Do what he says and throw away the water stones Phil, good advice from someone who admits to having "never used them".  

Maybe just go the whole hog, ditch the steel and go back to bone and flint.


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## Lons (16 Dec 2019)

Well done bp122, you'll soon develop the methods that work best for you.

Onwards and upwards from here, enjoy!


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2019)

Lons":3u6rfio7 said:


> phil.p":3u6rfio7 said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose I should throw away my water stones and diamond plates and go back to the kitchen doorstep. I was good enough for my mother and grandmother, after all.
> ...


Water stones aren't a technological development they are ancient. It's just fashion that's picked them up - along with fantasies about Samurai swords and Camellia oil etc. And "peacock oil" :lol: 
Maybe I could market something like "Jacob's magic oil"? Mix 3in1 bike oil with a bit of colour and perfume - Brut cologne? Oil for real men"?
Brand names are important. "Peacock" oil is a bit girly, what about "Hairyarse Oil"?


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## AJB Temple (16 Dec 2019)

All stones are ancient. That's a bit of a stone thing. 
In my experience, camellia oil is quite useful. If you are using and sharpening Japanese carbon steel knives, then they can be lovely to use for fine work, such as sashimi, but they can also be very reactive. To deal with that and avoid rust, something like camellia oil is necessary, it's cheap and it works fine in a spray bottle, and it's food safe. 

I have a set of water stones in my kitchen. They are dead easy to use: splash and go. No soaking. Good range of grits, they cut fine all the way through, and are easy to level when needed. Not sure that I would go this route in my workshop though. But as I said above, there are loads of sharpening systems and they all work. Just personal preference.


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## D_W (16 Dec 2019)

What are the advancements? Aside from diamond hones. 

I'd venture a guess at people thinking the original high-volume waterstones (like kings) were an improvement because they never had higher quality oilstones. I started with waterstones (the synthetic types), but wouldn't trade away oilstones to get them at this point. 

Diamond hones are useful for tools made from steels that woodworking tools probably don't need to be made from (high vanadium high hardness high temperature type steels - above and beyond "chrome vanadium" generics). 

The real advantage to waterstones is that they're common and easy for beginners to use. That's what sells. If you sell a translucent arkansas stone to a cabinetmaker, the next 5 after him can use the same stone for their entire careers. It's costly to get and not as easy as ramping up the production line. Mixing a batch of stuff and firing it (or pouring a resin and allowing it to set) - far easier.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2019)

Jacob":28a0o4ka said:


> phil.p":28a0o4ka said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose I should throw away my water stones and diamond plates and go back to the kitchen doorstep. I was good enough for my mother and grandmother, after all.
> ...



I've used waterstones and diamond plates for nearly forty years without any problem. Water stones? Why critcise something you've never used, anyway? Why even bother to comment on them?


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2019)

phil.p":1tvd6jk7 said:


> Jacob":1tvd6jk7 said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":1tvd6jk7 said:
> ...


The impression I got was that they endlessly need flattening and they are short lived. Also they involve water which causes rust and may be incompatible with woodwork itself, on site or on work bench. Are you sure you've been using them for 40 years I thought they were a relatively recent enthusiasm? Ditto diamond stones - 40 years ago they'd have cost a bomb.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2019)

Very early '80s.


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## Rich C (16 Dec 2019)

Jacob":1kbm7afy said:


> The impression I got was that they endlessly need flattening and they are short lived. Also they involve water which causes rust and may be incompatible with woodwork itself, on site or on work bench. Are you sure you've been using them for 40 years I thought they were a relatively recent enthusiasm? Ditto diamond stones - 40 years ago they'd have cost a bomb.


Water stones date back to Roman times at the least. I'm not sure I'd call that relatively recent.

Also DMT were founded in the 70s so there must have been a market for diamond plates at least back to then.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2019)

Rich C":pr6vn1ii said:


> Jacob":pr6vn1ii said:
> 
> 
> > The impression I got was that they endlessly need flattening and they are short lived. Also they involve water which causes rust and may be incompatible with woodwork itself, on site or on work bench. Are you sure you've been using them for 40 years I thought they were a relatively recent enthusiasm? Ditto diamond stones - 40 years ago they'd have cost a bomb.
> ...


Yes I know they are ancient but they weren't around much in the UK 40 years ago (except for wet wheels) but came along as a revival - from Japan I guess.


> Also DMT were founded in the 70s so there must have been a market for diamond plates at least back to then.


Yes no doubt but they would have been very pricy hence everybody used synthetic or natural stones.


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## Rich C (16 Dec 2019)

Do you have any evidence that everybody used them and didn't use water stones? Or is "everybody" in this context actually just "you"?


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## D_W (16 Dec 2019)

Jacob":xelj5191 said:


> I've used waterstones and diamond plates for nearly forty years without any problem. Water stones? Why critcise something you've never used, anyway? Why even bother to comment on them/................The impression I got was that they endlessly need flattening and they are short lived. Also they involve water which causes rust and may be incompatible with woodwork itself, on site or on work bench. Are you sure you've been using them for 40 years I thought they were a relatively recent enthusiasm? Ditto diamond stones - 40 years ago they'd have cost a bomb.



I'd imagine that we have the japanese version of waterstones because their coarse natural stones stink. Yes, I have them. Both types. when you work wiht a good norton crystolon and india and go up from there in fineness if needed, you'll wonder why anyone ever needed waterstones in the first place (aside from a big format that's easy to use with guides). Nothing made in the world of japanese stones will cut consistently with a fresh crystolon in oil (fresh is more friable) simply because the coarse stones are the same thing as crystolon in japan, but water is an unsuitable carrier. They're generally faster than coarse diamond stones and more uniform at a given grit level, and won't care about soft metal (where as soft metal will pull diamonds off of electroplate). 

However, if you grew up in japan sharpening hard chisels on what are essentially silica-based stones (the volcanic stones that japan is famous for - those have natural aluminum oxide in them - but they're mostly fine stones only - like 4k grit equivalent and up) .....anyway, if you grew up using those, you'd find a lot of favor in the synthetics, and they have to be a little bit soft if they're not fine and you're using them with water - water allows a coarse stone to load. 

But the coarse work was still done with crystolon stones, even if they didn't use oil. 

Diamonds are not a new thing, as folks are mentioning, but they are newly cheap in quantity in the last 15 years or so. 

Waterstones don't need to be flattened unless they load - the fact that they're often a bit soft makes them pretty easy to keep flat by use only unless you're using a guide.


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## Racers (16 Dec 2019)

I would prefer to spill water on a piece of wood than oil, but I guess it's not just me that would have that opinion. 

It's funny how some people readily believe the negative comments about something rather than the positive, I guess it fits their views, no point in questioning your self is their. 

Pete


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## Bm101 (16 Dec 2019)

Op has stated he's happy to have his issue resolved 10 odd posts ago. A good result for him because he doesn't want to flog a dead horse and is actually keen to get on with cutting wood now he can put an edge on steel. Yet here we are, still debating the ins and outs of ducks a*se. Again.
=D>


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2019)

Rich C":374ytb9v said:


> Do you have any evidence that everybody used them and didn't use water stones? Or is "everybody" in this context actually just "you"?


Yes. I was there 50 odd years ago knocking around with woodworkers and other crafts people. 60 years if you count school woodwork. Norton (or other brand) double sided oil stone was near universal standard. Sharpening jigs were there but not common. Japanese waterstones were unknown.
It all kicked off in the 80s or later.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2019)

There's little wrong with oilstones, I just prefer water stones. If you use them a little carefully they don't hollow all that quickly and as Pete said - I'd sooner have a drop of water on my hands, tools or wood than a drop of oil. I have never had a spot of rust on anything.
Anyway I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread as it's always the same, just going around in circles.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2019)

Actually I did pick a very nice natural stone, harder than hell and very fine yesterday ....... for a quid.


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## D_W (16 Dec 2019)

phil.p":jv9eikt1 said:


> There's little wrong with oilstones, I just prefer water stones. If you use them a little carefully they don't hollow all that quickly and as Pete said - I'd sooner have a drop of water on my hands, tools or wood than a drop of oil. I have never had a spot of rust on anything.
> Anyway I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread as it's always the same, just going around in circles.



Your luck is better than mine, but in fairness, I didn't always end a shop session by wiping my tools. I live in an area that's dry in the winter, but above 63% relative humidity in the summer (especially because my shop is halfway underground, and thus cooler than the already humid outside air - increasing the RH). 

Something rusts every year. If it's a chisel that I've sharpened in the last 6 months with an oilstone, then such a chisel will be safe. I'm not that bothered by rust, though - clean it off, use the tool. I started hand tool woodworking with the lie nielsen type plan. Brand new cast tools with bright fresh surfaces - a rust magnet. Waterstones, and camellia oil in a bottle. Eventually found that the oilstones will eliminate the need for camellia oil, and longer term rust prevention is far better undertaken with wax, and if very long term, a very light coat of shellac on milled surfaces. Wasted a lot of time wiping tools back then. A lot. Popular forum topic at the time, of course. 

I sometimes forget how nice it is to wipe the oil off of a chisel at the end of the process (instead of the water) and be done with rust prevention.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2019)

Where I am atm the r.h. is 81%, which is quite low. Most days it's higher.


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## Lons (16 Dec 2019)

We sold DMT diamond as well as waterstones in the early eighties and from memory in reasonable quantities so there were enough customers around happy to pay even though they weren't cheap.

I also bought at the time as I got good discount though I might have got the combination waterstone free tbh and both are still in very good condition despite being regularly used. No rust either just as there isn't from my Tormek but then I do wipe tools religiously after sharpening.

As a hobby woodworker I'm not doing peacework so the alleged few minutes extra it takes is of absolutely no concern to me and possibly applies to a majority of users these days.

EDIT:
Whilst our showroom was open to the public the business was firmly aimed at local business and I had 2 reps covering those and the retail side was a small percentage of sales so it's unlikely many of our stones were private sales.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2019)

Lons":2geb98cb said:


> ... I do wipe tools religiously after sharpening.



That's what clothes are for.


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## D_W (17 Dec 2019)

phil.p":1zujojiq said:


> Where I am atm the r.h. is 81%, which is quite low. Most days it's higher.



In the US, it's unusually for temperatures to be low enough to get RH that high. There's someone from memphis who peruses the forums who claimed 95 degrees and 90% humidity (which isn't actually possible - a 75 degree F dewpoint, which makes for extremely uncomfortable hand woodworking - results in an RH of about 50%. The 50% figure makes it sound tolerable, but it's not. If the temperture drops to 80, the dewpoint generally drops, too, unless it's raining or foggy here). 

For you guys in the UK (where a farmer who came over here put it as "we don't have enough heat to grow corn"), I guess if you can get a dewpoint in the high 60s and temps in the mid 70s, you can get some high readings. 

googlemonster says typical RH for london is 46-85% (another one says avg. 79.6 - appears to be dueling low-rent data websites), and states that UKers will come to the US and complain about the humidity in the south and midwest (even though it's numerically lower). 

At any rate, outdoor humidity above 63% here is rare, but many of us have tools in basements and garages, and the temp drop provides the mechanism to initiate rust.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Dec 2019)

88% now. I visited my sister in Auckland and commented that the humidity was 95%. Huh! she said - you should be here when it's high!


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## D_W (17 Dec 2019)

http://www.dpcalc.org/

This is pretty useful for finding RH at a given temperature. 

I didn't follow at first that you're in NZ, but a view of the climate data on wiki suggests why your rates are so high - the average temperatures are fairly low - or I should say, very consistent. It's hard for people in the midwest and south to notice humidity too much at 75 degrees, except that magazines and newspapers and such get soft feeling. Being landlocked, as we are (most of us), the swings are extreme, and the result here is often that older English tools brought into the united states will crack in winter - something already apt to happen over time anywhere given that wood never springs back as far as it contracts, and even in favorable storage, will shrink over the years because of that.

Never considered it, but NZ would qualify as the land of rusty tools with low temps and high humidity like that. Tools don't last well here in most places, either, but at least they get a rest over the winter when the temp drops! (average dew point here in January is -18 degrees F, or very close to the same in C (a little bit more, I guess - maybe like -25C). Average in july is probably 60F, some stretches more favorable, and sometimes a week or so in the 70s for dewpoint - yucky combined with high temperatures. Now that society has gone soft, they tell people on the news not to go outside when it's above 90 with a dewpoint like that.


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## AndyT (17 Dec 2019)

Phil's in Cornwall. The old forum software displayed locations - now you have to click on a user's picture to see it.


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## D_W (17 Dec 2019)

Lons":36biwsdu said:


> As a hobby woodworker I'm not doing peacework so the alleged few minutes extra it takes is of absolutely no concern to me and possibly applies to a majority of users these days.



Indeed. I went bonkers over sharpening and getting as lazy as possible about it during the course of switching over to hand woodwork. I sometimes forget that quite a lot of the woodworking population doesn't finish with planes, nor do they do any rough work with planes, and they may sharpen something once every few shop sessions whereas I may work in the shop for two hours and sharpen something in heavy use every 20 minutes (more often if chopping with chisels).


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## SammyQ (17 Dec 2019)

Coming back from Agra to Delhi at midnight, motorway gantry sign said:

39°C, 100% humidity...

Daytime temps were 48°C or so and in the monsoon, we had small (1m across) clouds drift in through the open doorway of the hill station school I was working with. You wouldn't believe it unless you saw it. One colleague thought the local cook was spiking our meals with extra "herbs" ( marijuana is as common there as nettles are here). 
Surface rust was everywhere as you might expect and the rickshaws ( tuk-tuks) structural integrity had to be carefully weighed up before embarking(!!). Yes, I know, thread drift, sorry. 

Sam


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Dec 2019)

No, I'm in Cornwall. Our climate isn't unlike NZ, except we have a few days of frost and/or windchill in the winter that they tend not to have. Thankfully from a rust point of view there is only a few degrees variation over 24 hours, which is often about average - 6c to 10c atm - so unless you're providing intermittent heat rust isn't too much of a problem. Humidity is up to 91% tomorrow.


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## D_W (17 Dec 2019)

SammyQ":1g2x5nev said:


> Coming back from Agra to Delhi at midnight, motorway gantry sign said:
> 
> 39°C, 100% humidity...
> 
> ...



I'd imagine that india is terrible as far as dewpoint and humidity, but that sign was a bit of a ruse. It's suggesting a dewpoint that is 7 degrees F above the highest ever recorded anywhere on earth (95F is the highest ever recorded, or 35C)


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## John Brown (17 Dec 2019)

"In the US, it's unusually for temperatures to be low enough to get RH that high."
Confused.
My wife was raised in Spokane, WA.
Either they have much colder winters than we do, or her pants are on fire.


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## SammyQ (17 Dec 2019)

> but that sign was a bit of a ruse.


  

I assure you D_W, that was - by far - not the only piece of flummery we encountered from the Indian populace. I quite concur with you. 

Sam


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## D_W (17 Dec 2019)

SammyQ":2wmgxhpp said:


> > but that sign was a bit of a ruse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



=D>


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## D_W (17 Dec 2019)

Yeah, spokane is toasty compared to where you are. That makes it hard to see those numbers. I looked up the average daily humidity for spokane (65) and the average during the day (which is warmer, thus the lower RH) - 51%. 

It's unusual in the lower 48 here to have somewhere in the summer where a typical temperature might be 68 degrees F midday.

I'd imagine the dewpoint in some places may be similar, but if their average daily temperature is 10 or 15 degrees F higher, the RH will be significantly lower. 

Of course, as I was typing earlier today that we don't see humidity that high very often, it was 34 degrees F here and 90% RH (but it rained last night and is intermittently dribbling snow). 

RH itself isn't as good of a gauge for feel as dewpoint and temperature. Dewpoint 70+ and temperature of 80F with some sun can feel horrible. Same dewpoint and 95 degrees feels absolutely horrible. "Sweat doesn't work" is kind of how it feels, though the RH number isn't very impressive with that combination. 

Cloudy and 70 dewpoint with 75 degree temperature doesn't feel great, but it's not that bad. Paper gets soft with that combination, though. 

(it's common for people around here to claim the same thing "it's 95 degrees and the humidity is also 95!!")


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## MikeG. (17 Dec 2019)

D_W":3bykhlue said:


> ........I'd imagine that india is terrible as far as dewpoint and humidity.........)



You are generalising far too much. India is huge, and includes the Himalayas and the Thar desert. It has some of the wettest places on the planet, and some of the hottest, and some of the driest.

New Zealand, too, varies in climate enormously.


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## D_W (17 Dec 2019)

I'm not publishing a scientific journal. I looked up auckland - avg. humidity about 80% (due to low temperature). I looked up a desert area in india up in the north - the average dewpoint is much higher than auckland.

There's no disclaimer that it's the entire country.


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## John Brown (17 Dec 2019)

Maybe "toasty " means something else to you. Over here it means warm.
Spokane is not currently warmer than the Cotswolds. Unless it's a Celsius/Fahrenheit mix-up...


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## D_W (17 Dec 2019)

Spokane in the summer would be toasty to the average person from England. 83F or just above 28C typical, with records close to 110. RH average in July and august is about 45 percent. 

Yes, I"m sure it's colder there in the winter than most places in England. My point about RH was in reference to summer. It's unusual for us to have places where it's cool enough in summer to get high RH numbers. Not uncommon for it to be cool in winter since much of the country is landlocked. 

I made a bad assumption -which is that people here only complain about humidity in the summer, even though the RH is higher in the winter in most places than the summer.


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## Lons (17 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":3cuhmr5x said:


> New Zealand, too, varies in climate enormously.



Varied by the hour Mike at least during our visits. :lol: 
The locals said if I didn't like the weather to go and have a coffee by which time it would have changed.


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## MikeG. (17 Dec 2019)

Lons":2x2dk25w said:


> .......The locals said........



How did you know> Did you have a translator?


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## Lons (17 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":24tcsdof said:


> Lons":24tcsdof said:
> 
> 
> > .......The locals said........
> ...


 :lol: :lol: Yeah the lingo is a bit weird, they have an odd sense of humour as well. Spent quite a lot of time in Oz as well so I guess half way there.

Maybe a Geordie accent is a bit closer to theirs?


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Dec 2019)

My b.i.l. Mike said after living in NZ for 11 years he could finally tell for certain the difference between an Australian accent and a Kiwi one, some of which are quite similar. His mate, a Maori said he must have been kidding, as any fool could tell. I asked him if he could tell the difference between Mike's accent and mine and he said no, they were identical. Mine is not particularly broad Cornish and Mike's is a very broad Plymouth. It depends what you are used to.


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## Trainee neophyte (18 Dec 2019)

AndyT":3s18n7y6 said:


> Phil's in Cornwall.



Which is a bit like England, only moist.

Mizzle is a real word. It's a real thing, too. Just ask Phil.


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## MikeG. (18 Dec 2019)

phil.p":2ikqkxhp said:


> ........ the difference between an Australian accent and a Kiwi one... which are quite similar.......



Just get them to say "fish 'n chips". The Kiwis say "fush 'n chups". 

Thank goodness this thread has got onto a sensible topic after about 18 pages of drivel.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Dec 2019)

My nephew (aged six) asked my wife if she wanted to see his big dick.
Remember the old joke about the Kiwi farmer who had fifty tons of potatoes but couldn't get any sex?
The children got a good laugh, anyway, they weren't used to people pronouncing "R"s. - at which of course the Cornish excel. :lol:


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## Trainee neophyte (18 Dec 2019)

It was explained to me by a New Zealander that Australians and Kiwis are the same; the only difference is that Aussies are more rowdy.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Dec 2019)

I liked the Canadian asked the difference beween Canadians and Americans - Canadians get upset when someone slaughters dozens of kids in schoolyards and Americans get upset when someone says "f**k".


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## D_W (18 Dec 2019)

Still 82% humidity, but at minus 5c with a brisk wind, it still feels crisp! I learned from this thread just how high the humidity is when the temps are cooler...never thought about it before, but it hasn't improved my sharpening to know that.


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## Ttrees (2 Jan 2020)

David, one question about your tests I have.
Were you doing these tests planing with timber supported, or did you achieve your findings by swapping cutters often?
Tom


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## D_W (3 Jan 2020)

Board in vise, rigid. Plane irons rotated every 50 strokes, or 200 feet to limit differences and get photos of the edges. Shortest planing iron still got rotated 4 times.

The boards that I have are half sap. Once most of the heart was planed, the remaining heart and sap was set aside and not used, so no board was allowed to get any appreciable spring relative to the weight of the plane and down force made when pushing from the rear only.


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