# Finding staff



## doctor Bob (26 Sep 2014)

Bloody hard work at the moment.
Took on a new guy this week, he went home at lunchtime and never came back, very strange.
Doing my nut in and costing a fortune on adverts.

I'm not looking for anybody fantastic, just a bit of woodwork ability and potential, can't be too hard.


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## Baldhead (26 Sep 2014)

Doctor Bob I would have given my right arm for a woodwork based apprenticeship in the late 70s, (well perhaps not my right arm) instead I became a heavy goods vehicle fitter, but that's another story. 

When I went to school we did woodwork and metalwork, the store rooms were full and you only paid a token gesture for the timber and metal you used for your projects, I was amazed to discover from a neighbour who's son was making a coffee table for his GCSE's, that the school didn't have a wood store room, the parents were expected to buy the timber they needed from wherever they could, (my neighbour bought softwood from B&Pooh, all of which was different sizes to what he really wanted) 

The problem in our area (Northumberland) is that we adopted the comprehensive system (this happened in my last two years at school) it is in my view not working and never will, some of today's children probably don't get the teaching I had at 'hands on' subjects, instead it's roped into something called DCT (design, craft, technology?) 

Until the problems are addressed at grass root level, people like yourself will struggle to expand their businesses as the basic training required at school isn't being taught.

Rant over.

Baldhead


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## ColeyS1 (26 Sep 2014)

Ring him up, tell him you were only joking when you told him to go find 'a long weight'  does seem odd. What task did you have him doing ?


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## undergroundhunter (26 Sep 2014)

It's a shame I don't live closer, I would rip your hand off just for a chance.

Matt


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## No skills (26 Sep 2014)

Whats the starting wage?


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## doctor Bob (26 Sep 2014)

No skills":3391sm6c said:


> Whats the starting wage?



I'm advertising in the local press.

"Cabinet maker required. Excellent opportunity for the right person. Experience in bespoke kitchens and furniture preferable, knowledge of machines, up to £12/ hr depending on experience."


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## No skills (26 Sep 2014)

Strange, I don't understand why you haven't got people asking for work (?). Nobody in the trade want to do a days work for a days money anymore??

I don't have the experience your asking for (yeah yeah poor me) but if I'd had a bit I would offer 3-4 days work for nowt and see if you thought I was worth taking on. Does nobody do things like that anymore?

Sorry, moaning again.


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## Ed Bray (26 Sep 2014)

Hi, I looked at the pay you were offering and thought that was a bit low for a craftsman with experience, I then did some searching on Google and was extremely surprised to discovered that the typical gross pay for a carpenter was between £8 and £13 an hour for a 40 hour week, this also was with the carpenter on short term contracts with minimal holiday pay and no sickness benefits. So your offer seems to be well in line with expected for the work.

It is extremely sad to report that a meter reader in our company (probably the lowest skilled starting post) who only really needs to have a clean driving licence and a grasp of numbers and English gets a basic gross starting salary of circa £14000 (for a 37 hour week) with sickness benefits and 23 days annual leave (plus bank holidays) with a vehicle (van, no tax implications) and if he works an additional 7.4 hours over a 4 week period he can also have an additional day off (thirteen extra days a year). This does not include overtime and the typical starting gross wage is circa £16500. This work is often picked up as a starting role in the company and has a typically high turnover of staff, as those with potential are often moved into work more fitting.

What makes this so sad is that this probably explains why there is so few skilled wood-workers around, as people would be much better off doing other less skilful jobs but with similar pay and much more security.

I would think that a fully skilled woodworker would be better off starting their own business and taking on commissions where they could then get paid commensurate with their skills and years spent learning their craft.


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## doctor Bob (27 Sep 2014)

Ed Bray":254d285z said:


> Hi, I looked at the pay you were offering and thought that was a bit low for a craftsman with experience, I then did some searching on Google and was extremely surprised to discovered that the typical gross pay for a carpenter was between £8 and £13 an hour for a 40 hour week, this also was with the carpenter on short term contracts with minimal holiday pay and no sickness benefits. So your offer seems to be well in line with expected for the work.
> 
> It is extremely sad to report that a meter reader in our company (probably the lowest skilled starting post) who only really needs to have a clean driving licence and a grasp of numbers and English gets a basic gross starting salary of circa £14000 (for a 37 hour week) with sickness benefits and 23 days annual leave (plus bank holidays) with a vehicle (van, no tax implications) and if he works an additional 7.4 hours over a 4 week period he can also have an additional day off (thirteen extra days a year). This does not include overtime and the typical starting gross wage is circa £16500. This work is often picked up as a starting role in the company and has a typically high turnover of staff, as those with potential are often moved into work more fitting.
> 
> ...



I'd like to point out the annual salary is nearly £24000 so quite a bit above your examples, with overtime this can be in excess of £33000.
38hr week. overtime if you want it.
20 days holiday plus bank holidays.
Unpaid leave is usually fine.
I think your post is off the mark

As for just starting a business and taking on comissions, if it's that simple why doesn't everyone do it. Whats the point in anyone working for anyone if it's so easy to make more money on your own>


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## Jamesc (27 Sep 2014)

Bob, I think it is a problem accross all industries, there seems to be a grossly over inflated view on what basic tasks are worth. I recentlytried to get some CAD work done as had so much work on. Very simple work takingexisting drawings and adding a few lines (literally) to make them record drawings. The quotes I got were out of this world so I ended up doing them myself. On average they too half an hour apiece, had I gone with the ceapest quote I would have paid around £75 per hour.
I went back to the guy tellling hm this as I have several more jobs coming up and was told that he wouldn't get out of bed for anything less.

So sadly rather than starting to farm work out with the view to eventually taking someone on I am resigned to working longer hours


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## ColeyS1 (27 Sep 2014)

So what job did you get him started on ? Could it be he felt out of his depth, or bored out of his mind? He must have had a reason to walk away :?


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## deema (27 Sep 2014)

Finding people is for me the most difficult problem, the right attitude,polite, willing to listen and earn are qualities which were not handed out in great quantities. 

Have you thought if seeing the local college? There are apprenticeships that you can tap into, they get trained for free and you can take a couple on to see if either make it through. I have had some excellent results, as you often get the pick of the class. And in every 20~30 people there are some real gems. I take people with the right attitude rather than the best skill set these days. Anyone who doesn't turn up in time, or clock watches at the end if the day when we are busy gets their DCM. (Don't come Monday)


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## Ed Bray (27 Sep 2014)

doctor Bob":o3hybn0a said:


> Ed Bray":o3hybn0a said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, I looked at the pay you were offering and thought that was a bit low for a craftsman with experience, I then did some searching on Google and was extremely surprised to discovered that the typical gross pay for a carpenter was between £8 and £13 an hour for a 40 hour week, this also was with the carpenter on short term contracts with minimal holiday pay and no sickness benefits. So your offer seems to be well in line with expected for the work.
> ...



You are indeed correct and I can only apologise for my miscalculation with the starting gross salary. That makes it much more realistic and I can not understand where I went wrong (sausage fingers perhaps when using the calculator).

My quote about starting their own business was really directed at what I perceived to be (incorrectly as you have pointed out) the typical wages for an experienced carpenter as found when doing a google search for typical rates of pay and the figures quoted above (these were averages and I am sure there were much higher earners and lower as well) and I would have thought that someone with the required skills and experience and more importantly the drive to work for themselves could carve a niche for themselves if an area was lacking the number of skilled, professional craftsman who can produce fine work to deadlines at a reasonable cost.

By the same token, I have worked for myself twice through my working life and I personally prefer the security (albeit not as secure these days as it once was) of working for someone else with the advantage of knowing a wage is coming at the end of every month.


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## JandK (27 Sep 2014)

The wage package offered is not bad at all, and I would think that job satisfaction in this case would be great. But sadly it seems that a lot of people expect to start at top dollar for very little input from themselves. 

Unfortunately there is a culture of "I can't be bothered to work for x amount or I won't get out of bed for x" - because the tax payers will look after me via the government.


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## RobinBHM (27 Sep 2014)

It is really really hard to obtain good staff in woodworking.

In theory it should be possible to advertise, get lots of enquiries, interview and employ the best. In practice it is hard to find enough candidates worth shortlisting. 

Ive recently taken on 2 new staff. Both are 18 and had completed a 2 year NVQ day release prior to joining my business. With 2 years college training and work experience already, one might assume a good level of competence of basic bench skills, especially as they both are keen and want a career in joinery. The reality is very different: not great with a tape measure, sanding is appalling, cant use a belt sander, random orbital or hand sand, cant use a cordless drill or an impact driver. What is really galling is that they have a very high opinion of how skilled they think they are, one of them asked me for a large pay rise after 4 months, saying 'Im ready to take on more responsibility now, you can just give me drawings to work from' -Really, I dont think so, I still have to check all of his work before goes to the spray shop and almost all has to be resanded.

I also find, whilst young staff are happy to be using an air sander, when they are hand sanding there is no hard graft applied just tickling the wood -there just doesnt seem to be any understanding that hard physical graft and a sense of urgency is required.

And dont get me started on mobile phones and tea breaks!

I can fully sympathise with your struggle to obtain good staff.


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## Ed Bray (27 Sep 2014)

What is really disheartening is I would take a large drop in pay to do something that I enjoy, it is not a chore going to work to do something you enjoy and even better when at the end of the day you can feel that you have created or completed something of note. At the moment I go to work for the money and the pension, there is never enough time to do all that is expected of you and it is very rare I get home and think that was a good day, I achieved something worthwhile, we are always fire-fighting I'm afraid, never enough resources to do the job properly, either staff or equipment, sad I know but just the way of the world these days.


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## doctor Bob (27 Sep 2014)

I already have 2 apprentices on the books, best guys I have, I'd take a third but feel I would be constantly looking over my shoulder or supervising.


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## SteveF (27 Sep 2014)

Hi Bob

I really enjoyed my day visiting your workshop
I cannot understand how you are struggling for staff
All the tools you can "play" with
professional setup and quality product
I would throw in my stressful job and a wage cut to have such an opportunity
sadly you are a bit too far for me to travel each day...and i may be a bit older than you are looking for

but my point is:

what a chance for someone with a bit of commonsense to learn a trade at a more than reasonable starting wage
does nobody want to learn anymore ?

Steve


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## [email protected] (27 Sep 2014)

out of interest and without wishing to write the wrong things here, have you tried eastern european workers? I had a Latvian guy who cycled to work 8 miles each way and worked like a trojan and not for big money either! Also, consider those with disabilities - deafness can be an attribute as the individual absorbs themselves in the work oblivious to the bullshit around them


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## RossJarvis (27 Sep 2014)

RobinBHM":2e81hpdf said:


> It is really really hard to obtain good staff in woodworking.
> 
> Ive recently taken on 2 new staff. Both are 18 and had completed a 2 year NVQ day release prior to joining my business. With 2 years college training and work experience already, one might assume a good level of competence of basic bench skills, especially as they both are keen and want a career in joinery. The reality is very different: not great with a tape measure, sanding
> 
> ...



Having recently been sacked from a "technical college". I can sympathise too.

Unfortunately the education system is totally designed to fail the skilled trades. Anyone with half a brain is pushed toward "academic achievement". Why should the "brightest" 50% have to go to University to learn skills that 30 years ago were done by people with 5 O' Levels? So the people who go to do the trades rarely choose to do this, they go because nowhere else will take them and it's the only choice they have. Often they have lot's of "baggage and issues", often not of their own choosing. It is very unlikely that someone with more than 5 GCSEs at C grade will go into a trade. This doesn't mean that there are no good students, but the vast majority tend to have lots of "issues".

It is now a given that people going into the trades in colleges are now generally the disadvantaged. There is no pride or sense of achievement inherent in the system.

Incidentally, one of the reasons I was sacked was because I pointed out that my management were actively giving qualifications to people who could not have possibly passed them. This was seen as "bringing the organisation into disrepute" not as trying to maintain standards. As FE colleges are now businesses which are valued on their "rates of achievement", you will find very few colleges failing students because they are not actually up to the task, which is a bit ironic as the minority of the students are actually up to the task. Unfortunately we just see the inability of the student as the issue, whereas in fact it's the whole "system" which is at fault. The British Education system is not designed to create capable trades people, it is totally focussed on "highly educated" experten. It is rubbish at making them too!


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Sep 2014)

Ross, you mention the "5 GCSE's at "C" or above. A (govt. or education) spokesman some while ago said that a C grade at GCSE was no guarantee of literacy or numeracy. "what is 17 + 14" , "how many 50p's are there in £200" and "write 6008 in words" are sample questions that I've seen in maths GCSE papers. A marker writing in The Times a while ago said she gave it up because she was advised that if she had any doubt whatsoever, she was to award a "C" - because otherwise the paper would be sent back for re - marking until someone eventually gave it a "C". 
A little off tack, maybe, but relevant to the presumed standards of the young people you are likely to employ.


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## IHc1vtr+ (28 Sep 2014)

I'd like to point out the annual salary is nearly £24000 so quite a bit above your examples, with overtime this can be in excess of £33000.
38hr week. overtime if you want it.
20 days holiday plus bank holidays.
Unpaid leave is usually fine.
I think your post is off the mark

As for just starting a business and taking on comissions, if it's that simple why doesn't everyone do it. Whats the point in anyone working for anyone if it's so easy to make more money on your own>[/quote]



=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## RossJarvis (28 Sep 2014)

phil.p":kk8adfzj said:


> . A (govt. or education) spokesman some while ago said that a C grade at GCSE was no guarantee of literacy or numeracy. "what is 17 + 14" , "how many 50p's are there in £200" and "write 6008 in words" are sample questions that I've seen in maths GCSE papers. A marker writing in The Times a while ago said she gave it up because she was advised that if she had any doubt whatsoever, she was to award a "C" - because otherwise the paper would be sent back for re - marking until someone eventually gave it a "C".
> A little off tack, maybe, but relevant to the presumed standards of the young people you are likely to employ.



Personally I think there is a massive problem within our education system. When I was teaching engineering (fitting and turning). I gave up being surprised at the number of students who couldn't understand the decimal point and could only count on their fingers. The difference between a C grade at O'Level and GCSE is massive.

If you think about it, with the introduction of the A* grade, the concept of C is now a D anyway. If they introduce A** then C is actually an E!

The main reason I was sacked was going sick due to stress. The organisation didn't understand how stressful it is to teach practical engineering to students who couldn't read, write or count and who had no practical metal working or technical drawing experience at school. (the only options given were pass every student or get sacked anyway). I trained as a "CDT" teacher and that discipline is not really about teaching hand skills, although there are still some people trying to teach these things. It's about creating the designers and thinkers of the future. The British Education system is in the business of making money, it has no real interest in creating trades people. It tends to give out qualifications because it's told it has to, which is a hell of a lot easier than actually creating people who can do things.

Not that I'm bitter :evil: but just don't get me on the subject. I pointed out that my boss was giving qualifications to students who had not completed courses and that he asked me to award him one without doing the work (he later gave it to himself as I refused). For this I was considered a trouble maker. Not every FE college is quite as bad as this, but the current approach to education has made this likely to happen. Modern qualifications are no real indication of any form of ability or achievement. This makes it impossible for any employer to really get an idea of what people are actually capable of.


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## RobinBHM (28 Sep 2014)

I believe that the current NVQ qualifications for joinery are not of the calibre of city and guilds courses.

Also FE colleges seem to have sold all their cast iron wadkin or equivalent machines in favour of much lighter duty equipment.


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## Water-Mark (28 Sep 2014)

This might seem way off so forgive me for offering it but have you tried your local probation service?
Cabinet making is often taught in prisons so you may find someone keen to press on in life with the appropriate skills.

I've no first hand experience of this incidentally but I do know a guy who trained as a luthier in an open prison many years ago.
Not sure how much effort he put into that mind as he was an absolute demon on the pool table.

I used to run maintenance gangs for London Underground and the difference between the British and Eastern Europeans was truly shameful.
I'd take the Europeans over the British every day of the week, something I was regularly berated for.


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## RossJarvis (28 Sep 2014)

Water-Mark":1mzh5oeb said:


> I used to run maintenance gangs for London Underground and the difference between the British and Eastern Europeans was truly shameful.
> I'd take the Europeans over the British every day of the week, something I was regularly berated for.



When teaching, I found that the "overseas" students, often refugees of some sort, tended to be harder working, more interested in learning and doing work. The "indigenous" students often tended to be the opposite or had greater issues. Few were totally bone idle though, but it was a chore having to encourage people to be "motivated". It was actually pretty hard though, for say, a black African who was an outstanding student to find employment. The problem being that employers may or may not have been "prejudiced" but were never in the position to actually see them working. All they can go on is an interview and looking at various certificates, which often confuse due to the plethora of levels and titles which don't appear to make any sense.

It can be too easy to blame the individuals themselves, I think there are bigger issues at large in our society and the education system is overwhelmed trying to fix them. The reason that 25% of Brits are functionally illiterate is not purely down to the education system not trying. The education system isn't really up to dealing with a large proportion of the population as it's really designed to feed the universities, not make useful people.

When it comes to the trades etc, these are seen as lesser/dirty/unworthy occupations for people. We really need to bring a sense of pride in these roles, but I can't see it happening soon. The government may be trying to push "Modern Apprenticeships" (or what-ever they're called this week), but they don't realise the whole concept and system is fundamentally flawed in too many areas.


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## Water-Mark (28 Sep 2014)

"not make useful people"
Sad but true.

Kids I've worked with seem to be lacking basic self discipline and in a lot of cases even any sort of self preservation.
The reason you shouldn't be texting whilst working three feet away from running trains or whilst crossing electrified track is completely lost on most of them and on several occasions their parents as well!


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Sep 2014)

There was a letter in The Times some years ago from a guy who owned a small engineering business bemoaning the fact that 16y.o.'s were coming to him from school and expecting to be fully qualified at 19 y.o. - when they didn't know what a file was, and had never held a hammer. At least in the past they'd have had a few years metalwork and woodwork behind them.
It's an even bigger bummer when they can't read, write and add up.


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## rafezetter (29 Sep 2014)

RobinBHM":95bqeuyz said:


> I believe that the current NVQ qualifications for joinery are not of the calibre of city and guilds courses.
> 
> Also FE colleges seem to have sold all their cast iron wadkin or equivalent machines in favour of much lighter duty equipment.



I had considered re-training to do these types of courses in the hope of maybe landing a job such as DrBob is offering BUT if they are churning out idiots with little to no handskills; I think I might be better off just showing some of my work instead.

I'm no cabinet maker, but I can do all that RobinBHM mentioned and more besides, all self taught but I consider myself mediocre compared to some of the items made I see posted here.

(I wonder if I could just walk in - do a few demonstrations, prove I can already do all that and walk out with the diploma the same day and save myself a year?? :| )

I'm also curious as to the thinking that it has to be a young apprentice. Why exactly? Surely a guy like me; in his 40's who has a much more grounded, thoughtful, approach would be leaps and bounds more preferable than some 18 yr old barely literate teen; who can barely bring themselves to look up from their phones / tablets to cross a road let alone finesse a dovetail.

I recently left my old place and it had two 17/18 yr olds. Nice enough guys to talk to but both had their heads firmly stuck in their ****, no sense of importance, had to be directed on every task, even the one that had been there a year already, at least 1 cigarette an hour, and on the phone constantly. 5pm on the dot: gone, regardless.

Anyway my point is - a young apprentice so you get some years out them... you hope. 5 - 10 years maybe? Some companies might get lucky and land a kid who wants to make it his life's career; but I'm pretty sure from responses I've read in this thread and others that there are far more adults who would do it, be more enthusiastic for it and would be looking for it to be long term for their own security, than any current mass produced silly person school leaver.

To be frank I think the notion of taking on only young people with (from the observations of RobinBHM) a smattering of actually usable skills is self defeating for employers nowadays.

I'm 45 in 3 months, so do I risk a year or two to get these much vaunted bits of paper or am I already too late?

Edit: sorry got a good bit of steam up then, but it just annoys me to see golden opportunities wasted on those too stupid and too juvenile to see and appreciate them, when there are people around practically saying they would gladly do it for basic living money (me included).


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Sep 2014)

A young girl I knew some years ago was a trainee patissiere, and she went for a job interview in a top notch London hotel. She had the five minute interview and the guy said "the milk, cream, cheese etc. is in the fridge, the herbs, spices and so on are in the cupboards. There are your ingredients, there's the kitchen. Cook us something."There's got to be a lot said for this outlook, although paper qualifications are now everything. 
A guy I used to work closely with came to me one day and asked me if I could get him out of a jam. I did, and went back to what I was doing. The chap I was working with at the time asked me if I thought it odd. I said no, and asked if he did. He asked if I had any paper qualifications to do that job, and I asked why. He said he thought it amusing that I had no qualifications but the person who asked my help because he didn't know what he was doing was an NVQ assessor.


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## SpinDoctor (29 Sep 2014)

Years ago my wife worked for a university were she was responsible for managing over 120 million in grants to a variety of scientists... She was given carte blanche as to how she wanted to develop the job and run it. About 5 years later, when we decided to move to another country, the heads of the department (all phd snobs) put the job out to tender. It was decreed that only someone with a minimum degree qualification should be considered for the job, as no one less would be able to perform up to what she had built... My wife has never had any qualifications other than year 12. In Australia she was regularly head hunted by director generals and regional directors of the state government who would bend the rules to have her on their staff and put her in positions where she would have to build and develop positions from scratch. They all thought she had impressive skills and such, enough so to circumvent policy, but they would never promote her because she lacked a simple piece of paper demonstrating she was able to barf up on command a load rubbish on a test that ultimately meant nothing.

I have two degrees and when people say, you must be so proud... I say, it's nothing to be proud of, it's actually harder to fail university than it is to pass. It just proves I'm a trained monkey that can barf up the right rubbish on command.


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## mailee (30 Sep 2014)

A good friend of mine owns his own Carpentry business, employs 5 joiners, and has plenty of work in the area. He started out like myself doing wood work as a hobby and went self employed over 30 years ago as a one man band. Before the financial crisis he employed 30 guys and had lots of industrial work as well as private. he has never done a course in woodwork or has any qualifications. Most of his joiners have more pieces of paper than he has but still look to him for advise. He has employed a few youngsters over the years who have got the pieces of paper and also says they can all talk a good job but can't actually do it! :roll:


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## SpinDoctor (30 Sep 2014)

Interesting and timely article on google news today regarding most employers shunning local young workers in favour of eastern europeans and older workers. Seems they're pretty useless at all but nintendo (TM)


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## whiskywill (1 Oct 2014)

phil.p":r81oq743 said:


> Ross, you mention the "5 GCSE's at "C" or above. A (govt. or education) spokesman some while ago said that a C grade at GCSE was no guarantee of literacy or numeracy. "what is 17 + 14" , "how many 50p's are there in £200" and "write 6008 in words" are sample questions that I've seen in maths GCSE papers. A marker writing in The Times a while ago said she gave it up because she was advised that if she had any doubt whatsoever, she was to award a "C" - because otherwise the paper would be sent back for re - marking until someone eventually gave it a "C".
> A little off tack, maybe, but relevant to the presumed standards of the young people you are likely to employ.



My wife is a part time university lecturer and she has been instructed (verbally) by her superiors not to fail anybody in the first two years of a three year course because the "university is a business" and needs the tuition fees. I often read their exam papers to give myself a good laugh.


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## Fat ferret (1 Oct 2014)

I'm 23 and run my own joinery business mostly traditional stuff, doors, windows built in stuff and bits of pine furniture. I would bite your hand off if you offered me a job! 

I went to tech college for a year but it was hopeless, I did all the course work in the first month and then had to wait for everyone else to catch up. I actually used to bring in wood and make stuff for myself and to sell. I tried to get an apprenticeship but all local joiners took on their sons and wouldn't give me a chance. 

Bit annoying when people start on about "the young of today" and how the eastern Europeans work so much harder than us. I planted trees for 5 pence a one all day everyday last winter and kept up with the Latvian workers.

Would be good to be employed doing something I liked but mostly when I've worked for other people I've just been exploited. My last boss actually refused to pay me for three days spraying trees with a knapsack because he wasn't making any money from the contact. I did my job while he sat in the bloody pick up and watched for hours! 

Least when your your own boss you get some choice in what you do and how.


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## JandK (2 Oct 2014)

It is interesting noting the comments on Eastern Europeans. The workforce for the company I work for consist of about 85% Eastern Europeans. 
I do not find them dependable at all especially Monday mornings when they need to recover from the Vodka excesses from Sunday, their lack of neatness and precision is appalling. When asked if they can do this or that the usual comment of "no problem" means only that in 7 out of 10 cases you will be spending a lot of time correcting a total shambles.

When they get rapped on the knuckles out come the race card.

I do think that with all nations you will find the rotten apples in similar percentages, but I must agree that most British youths only real experience/ interest is in the latest computer and phone games and of no real use.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Oct 2014)

A friend works in food packaging and a few years ago started to employ Portuguese. At first they were great, but after a few months they discovered bad backs and depression and spent more time off than working. Later it was Poles who were great at first, but after a few months discovered... yes, you've guessed it...


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## doorframe (2 Oct 2014)

As a sub contracting sparx I got totally peed off being regularly laid off in favor of Easterns prepared to work for a pittance. Their standards were appalling and their electrical knowledge extremely limited. As for qualifications, C&G for example, non existent.

But it was cheaper for the firms to employ Easterns to do the donkey work and minimal qualified staff to do the snagging. 

During the years I spent on site I watched them take over most of the trades, from ground work through bricking, dry lining, spreading (plastering), chipping, and sparking. They hadn't taken over toshing (painting), plumbing or kitchen fitting but that was 10 yrs ago so they probably have now. Even the final cleaning before hand overs were done by their wives and gf's.

They would turn up to site and pour out of the back of transit vans with no tax discs. They spoke little or no English, and stole anything they could get away with, including my tools.

Decent ones were few and far between.

If I'm ever in a position to take on an employee, it will not be an Eastern.


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## doctor Bob (2 Oct 2014)

Still looking.
It's not rocket science, I just want someone who can hang a door in a face frame and progress from there.


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## Sheffield Tony (2 Oct 2014)

Ahh, but if this is what you are referring to under the "careers" section of your web site, you are looking for experienced cabinet makers who can show initative, work to exacting standards and with experience in bespoke kitchens essential. That sounds a bit more than being able to fit a door to me ? And for somewhat less than the national average full time salary (£26,500 in the year April 2012; ONS)

I sometimes wonder if by asking for more experience than you really need you don't put off the genuine people who know they aren't an experinced cabinet maker, and the genuinely experienced who can't/won't work for the salary, and only get left with the bulls****ers applying.


Edited to add: Nice looking kitchens BTW. If the wife sees your site, I'm in trouble.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Oct 2014)

"And for somewhat less than the national average full time salary (£26,500 in the year April 2012; ONS)"
I can't speak for his area, but don't forget that for many areas (Cornwall, for one) that wage is way beyond many people's wildest dreams.


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## morfa (2 Oct 2014)

For a skilled job I'd say that's a fair wage. However it seems that generally it's hard to find skilled workers. I suspect that this has always been an issue. Most of my mates are roughly the same age as me or older (30 upwards) and most are skilled & motivated people. None of them have any issues in finding jobs, in a wide range of fields (IT, Retail, Engineering). They all say the same, (those are are involved in hiring and firing) that finding good people is always hard. 

It's interesting to see the comments about the youth of today. I do wonder if that's a comment leveled at youth regardless of the time period. Cue misatributed Socrates quote... (it's actually from a play by Aristophanes) 

Also the quotes about Eastern Europeans. There's lazy feckless folk from Poland, as well as there being plenty of hardworking skilled people. I never understand why people group them together and expect the same behaviour from a whole country. I think that to an extent, the good ones are the ones who want to get on and they're the ones who are more likely to come over here to work. So we're probably seeing the very best and the very worst (i.e. the ones who are desparate). Maybe that explains the disparity in people's experience.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Oct 2014)

I used to have to deal with groups of Americans, one group would be some of the nicest people I've ever met and the next would leave you hoping never again to see another one. It's no difference with us (especially abroad). It's not just a European thing.


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## doctor Bob (2 Oct 2014)

Sheffield Tony":1wyfb2j0 said:


> Ahh, but if this is what you are referring to under the "careers" section of your web site, you are looking for experienced cabinet makers who can show initative, work to exacting standards and with experience in bespoke kitchens essential. That sounds a bit more than being able to fit a door to me ? And for somewhat less than the national average full time salary (£26,500 in the year April 2012; ONS)
> 
> I sometimes wonder if by asking for more experience than you really need you don't put off the genuine people who know they aren't an experinced cabinet maker, and the genuinely experienced who can't/won't work for the salary, and only get left with the bulls****ers applying.
> 
> ...



Indeed the website says this, however my advert in the paper this week is for a "bench joiner", I am getting virtually no response and those that do apply "quite like the idea of making things". There is zero point in me taking these people as I take apprentices on each year tpo learn from scratch.


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## JohnPW (3 Oct 2014)

I think the problem is employers want people who are already doing the job, ie fully skilled and experienced, but they are already have a job! And they're not going to change job unless pay and working conditions are better, or move to a new area.

The number of people already doing the job but who wants to leave their current employment/self employment are going to be relatively few compared with the general unemployment figures. That's why employers look at the 10,000s of jobless figures and can't think why they can't find staff. It seems most skilled jobs are filled by people moving from job to job and not from the unemployed.


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## rafezetter (3 Oct 2014)

doctor Bob":13q186n7 said:


> Still looking.
> It's not rocket science, I just want someone who can hang a door in a face frame and progress from there.



I can hang a door and more (and I mean properly, 2mm gap etc hinges in the right places; almost perfect 1st time kind of "hang a door"), but I'm not an "experienced cabinetmaker" and although I have extensive handy skills, I wouldn't go so far as to say you could leave me with a laborer to fit a kitchen alone - at least not for the first half dozen anyway, plus to go to cornwall would be a major upheaval - the upside down move everything kind.

You're saying the above here, yet elsewhere asking for a whole lot more. Clarification may help you decide your actual practical needs which may *ahem* open more doors 

Edit: Essex not Cornwall!


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## No skills (3 Oct 2014)

doctor Bob":2idzku6x said:


> Still looking.
> It's not rocket science, I just want someone who can hang a door in a face frame and progress from there.




Theres the problem. Say experienced cabinet maker and I'd laugh and say no chance. Cupboard door in a frame and learn from there, no problem. How you would best convey that in your advert is another matter.


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## doctor Bob (3 Oct 2014)

Sorry guys, I'm not sure where this confusion is coming from, if you read my posts, it says I have advertised for a bench joiner with experience in kitchens.
The website careers page is a different entity.
The advert has been running for 3 weeks and each week I lower the tone of the advert.

Today I had a guy ring up who is handy at fencing, wooden fences as well. !!!!!!!!!


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## ColeyS1 (3 Oct 2014)

Meanwhile the original guys still looking for a long weight......... :lol:


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## JandK (3 Oct 2014)

doctor Bob":1kb6w2kh said:


> Sorry guys, I'm not sure where this confusion is coming from, if you read my posts, it says I have advertised for a bench joiner with experience in kitchens.
> The website careers page is a different entity.
> The advert has been running for 3 weeks and each week I lower the tone of the advert.
> 
> Today I had a guy ring up who is handy at fencing, wooden fences as well. !!!!!!!!!



He may do some rustic kitchens for you :mrgreen:


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## Doug B (3 Oct 2014)

doctor Bob":1t395mxm said:


> Today I had a guy ring up who is handy at fencing, wooden fences as well. !!!!!!!!!




Yebbut with him on board you wouldn't have to worry about the dogs escaping, every cloud & all that jazz :wink:


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## heimlaga (4 Oct 2014)

Here in Finland employers complain all the time that they cannot get qualified employees. When I was unemployed I was turned down any number of times by any number of employers. They said that I wasn't competent without even letting me make anything to show what I could. Then they usually employed a teenage alcoholist who could hardly drive in a nail. That happened over and over again....... 
I have heard many very competent carpenters complain over the same thing. All companies that are big enough to have a human resources manager tend to employ kids who cannot do anything else than smoke and drink vodka and send messages over the phone. Problably because most competent capenters in Finland are fairly individualistic and enterprizing men from the country and rarely have a CV without unexpected turns and bumps of the kind that human resource people are trained to shun.

Some wanted me to work the first year or two for free as a kind of apprenticeship.....but it is impossible for a 30 year old with several years of carpentry experience to work one or two years for free for every new employer when working on a project basis. That would mean a total income of two or three moths pay every two years at best. I told them that I don't have a family fortune to live from while working so at least I want an apprentice's pay. They replied that they do not employ that kind of poor people..... and then they complained on the press over the labour shortage.

One employer offered me 2200 euros per month as an engineer and construction site foreman. I have an engineering degree but I have never worked with it. I accepted..... only to find that the workdays were 10-12 hours long 7 days a week plus personal responsiblility for all accidents and injuries at a site that lacked even the most basic safety precautions such as ladders with all rungs still attached and any materials at all for scaffoldings and where the asbestos hadn't been removed. I wasn't allowed to buy in as much as a box of nails but when the work wasn't progressing because of lack of materials it was all my fault which the boss told I must compensate by working overtime for free. There was always as shortage of workers because the boss had fired them all. 
After a few days I shut down the site and handed in the keys and quit. The project turned into a disaster when they employed a 25 year old who had never worked in construction before as their new foreman........ 

After that I turned self emplyed and had no shortage of work until my back gave in. Now I am roughly halfways through the rehabilitation and potential customers keep calling and asking if I am likely to get well anytime soon. I have tried to find a helper but nobody is interrested...................

I think this employee shortage is a two sided thing. There are plenty of overly greedy employers and plenty of ignorant youngsters who have no clue about anything else than telephones and drinking. No wonder that nothing gets done when both sides are just as bad.


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## RogerS (5 Oct 2014)

There is no simple answer although the tabloids would have you believe it were. 

Yes - in the UK (and elsewhere I am sure) there are unscrupulous employers who do not pay the minimum wage. Quite how they get away with it, I'm not too sure.

Yes - there are some in the UK who are too lazy or feckless to want to do an honest days work as being on the dole makes it too easy for them

Yes - there are some good employers who cannot get enough people to work for them because global market forces are against them. There is a huge crop of potatoes this year yet prices have gone through the floor due to imports. Take our local orchard. Last year, apples were fetching £200 a ton. This year, only £75 and again down to imports. But just check that price out...the grower is getting paid 7.5p a kilo. You can see why an unscrupulous grower might be tempted to pay less than the minimum wage. Now how much do they go for in the supermarket?

Yes - there are young lads and lasses who do do a good days work and are keen to learn and progress in life.


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## Fat ferret (5 Oct 2014)

JohnPW":1y363qkt said:


> I think the problem is employers want people who are already doing the job, ie fully skilled and experienced, but they are already have a job! And they're not going to change job unless pay and working conditions are better, or move to a new area.
> 
> The number of people already doing the job but who wants to leave their current employment/self employment are going to be relatively few compared with the general unemployment figures. That's why employers look at the 10,000s of jobless figures and can't think why they can't find staff. It seems most skilled jobs are filled by people moving from job to job and not from the unemployed.



Could have a point there mate.


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