# Imperial measurement



## Templatetom

Since I have produced all my topics and plans in the metric system I made an effort to produce a sample of tenon making with my Super jig using imperial method.
I need some advice as to how the details are presented (a) in decimal parts of the inch or (b) fractions on an inch as per the drawing.


----------



## twothumbs

Fractions of an Inch would be the usual way. Went into my first construction metric exam with the advice from a tutor... remember it is straight forward...an inch is equal 25.4mm. and that was before calculators. I passed.


----------



## Sawyer

It should be fractions, as you have in (b). Usual to use the simplest possible fraction, eg. 3/4" instead of 6/8" and so on. As you have done in (b), so your drawing is spot on.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

The general convention in engineering is that any dimension expressed in decimal fractions (1.750" for example) is one that expected to be made to a tolerance of 1/2 thou either way - so 1.750" really means between 1.7495" and 1.7505". That level of precision - or even tighter, sometimes - may be necessary to ensure proper fits between components. Dimensions expressed in fractions (7/8" for example) are not expected to be so precise. Both methods may be used on the same drawing in some instances.

In woodwork, the precision implied by using decimal fractions is not really appropriate. After all, wood shrinks and swells with different levels of humidity, so a piece that may be 1.750" thick at 10 o'clock in the morning may be 1.753" by 2 o'clock in the afternoon if it happens to have started raining! By the same token, if you want 1/4" mortices, your mortice chisel may well not be exactly 0.250" wide. It's actual width doesn't matter one jot as long as it's about 1/4", because you'll cut the tenons to fit. So specifying 1/4" on the drawing is plenty close enough.

Another factor to take into account is what measuring equipment the person reading the drawing will have available. Most tape measures have metric dimensions in metres and millimetres, and imperial in feet, inches and fractions of an inch - 1/4's, 1/8's 1/16's are the usual ones - so it would be sensible to use these instead of decimal fractions of an inch, which would require the workman to make a conversion to something actually on his tape. He can read off 16 7/8", but 16.875" would make him scratch his head. The less chance of errors arising by having to make mental conversions, the better.


----------



## Tony Spear

Tom,

basically for things like woodwork, housebuilding etc. the norm would be to use fractions.
For anything needing high accuracy (i.e Engineering), you would use tenths. or more specifically "Thousandths."
However, it was not unusal to mix both of the Imperial systems on one job.
During my apprenticeship we used to make hydraulic tipping systems and truck bodies; for the steel fabrication work we used fractions but for the hydraulic pumps and rams we used thousandths, BUT NEVER on the same drawing.

Slightly OT, when the metric system came along it could get really confusing. I did a number of projects for a Nigerian company refurbishing old (mainly British built) water treatment plants. I could be sitting in the UK office and I'd get a fax saying "we need a new valve for XYZ, the meeting flange is 150mm bore diameter and has 4 holes" Knowing the age of the plant I was forever pointing out to them that there were 6 or 8 standard flanges that would fit that criteria! (hammer) (hammer)


----------



## SammyQ

Talking of standards that are taken as 'read', I know I'm going to put my foot (in my mouth) with Tony, but _criteria_ are plural,_ criterion _is singular......


Yes, I know, I came across as an irritating pedant, in the Jacob corner perhaps , but as a classically educated Latinist and biologist who also wants to throw things at the telly when some talking head says (about a specific species) 'the bacteria has..' GRRRRRRR! "BACTERIUM HAS - BACTERIA HAVE"!!, I feel I have to express a mild whinge!

Tony, please feel free to object to this rant, it's Monday and 9B1 were particularly........challenging today.....

Sam


----------



## Templatetom

Many thanks to all who expressed their reasons for a preferred method. Personally I was brought up in the imperial system (Fractions of an inch) when living in Scotland but on my journey to Australia some 45 years ago I arrived to find Australia were in the process of changing to metric. As I was in the teaching profession teaching technical drawing woodwork and metalwork I had to make some quick changes to my presentations. Then some years later I began cabinet making and then I had to go armed with both Imperial and Metric to explain sizes of cabinets to my customers. 
I did make the complete change to metric and when I began writing articles on woodworking I made all the dimensions in Metric.
To this end I have always purchased individual metric template guides for my Makita and Hitachi routers 
I have searched the internet to see if there are any boxes of guides for sale in metric and the only ones I have seen are produced by Trend. The manufacturers of the guides (may only be one) have come up with a strange collection of sizes IMHO and I often wonder if they had any idea as to what they were going to be used for when they made their decision as to the sizes they included in there kits as there has been little information included with the purchase.
My thoughts on this matter is that they searched the various jigs available like the number of Dovetail jigs or Finger joint, and found a certain guide was required, and included that in their selection. If I were to ask how many of the guides from the purchased set are used on a regular basis I am convinced the answer would be "Just a couple". Obviously template guides are not widely used by most enthusiasts

I would be interested in more comments on what template guides are used by the average router user


----------



## JakeS

I'm afraid I don't have anything to add to the discussion at hand - I was brought up metric so I don't properly understand all these inches and chains and what have you - but:



SammyQ":3uisfrxc said:


> Talking of standards that are taken as 'read', I know I'm going to put my foot (in my mouth) with Tony, but _criteria_ are plural,_ criterion _is singular......



Think on the bright side, I saw someone use "criterium" for the plural the other day.


----------



## Wildman

In general forums deal with specialist subjects and criticizing someones use of English or Grammar is generally considered bad form. People cannot spell for a number of reasons poor education, dyslexia, old age, and even clumsy fingers like me. To make them feel uncomfortable is not the done thing. If correct English is your bag then good luck to you but please express it on an English pedant forum. Otherwise you might drive away a very clever craftsman who can really add something to the forum.


----------



## bugbear

Templatetom":26qh63zu said:


> Many thanks to all who expressed their reasons for a preferred method. Personally I was brought up in the imperial system (Fractions of an inch) when living in Scotland but on my journey to Australia some 45 years ago I arrived to find Australia were in the process of changing to metric. As I was in the teaching profession teaching technical drawing woodwork and metalwork I had to make some quick changes to my presentations. Then some years later I began cabinet making and then I had to go armed with both Imperial and Metric to explain sizes of cabinets to my customers.
> I did make the complete change to metric and when I began writing articles on woodworking I made all the dimensions in Metric.
> To this end I have always purchased individual metric template guides for my Makita and Hitachi routers
> I have searched the internet to see if there are any boxes of guides for sale in metric and the only ones I have seen are produced by Trend. The manufacturers of the guides (may only be one) have come up with a strange collection of sizes IMHO and I often wonder if they had any idea as to what they were going to be used for when they made their decision as to the sizes they included in there kits as there has been little information included with the purchase.
> My thoughts on this matter is that they searched the various jigs available like the number of Dovetail jigs or Finger joint, and found a certain guide was required, and included that in their selection. If I were to ask how many of the guides from the purchased set are used on a regular basis I am convinced the answer would be "Just a couple". Obviously template guides are not widely used by most enthusiasts
> 
> I would be interested in more comments on what template guides are used by the average router user



I think most people in the UK can "manage" in metric quite well; it's only the USA-ians who'll need the imperial version. (some irony there, surely!?)

BugBear


----------



## SammyQ

Wildman? I fully take your point about dyslexia and other similar conditions. As a teacher of 31 years, with a pastoral qualification and 20 years practicising it, I know and empathise with lots of people in this bracket. I was in no way aiming my 'rant' at this section of Humanity, as Tony Spear seemed a reasonably erudite individual, with a similarly reasonable grasp of technicalities and therefore, not vulnerable to ill-considered crtiticism. As a scientist, I have an obligation to use precision of language, just as woodies have in describing joints, faces, angles and components. I was trying - after a trying day - to have a have a mock-serious 'dig' and simultaneously, wake up just _someone_ to this neglected phraseology. I admitted to Tony that I was probably going to be considered foot-in-mouth AND he's quite free to 'dig' right back. I just cringe when I hear something clear and definable mis-used and I was always taught that correction was better than allowing a mistake to be further perpetrated. But then, I am old-school (1963 onwards) and probably NOT in favour of a "dynamic lauguage".


"Practise or practice....?" see above, Sam


----------



## RogerP

bugbear":7um67z3z said:


> I think most people in the UK can "manage" in metric quite well; it's only the USA-ians who'll need the imperial version. (some irony there, surely!?) BugBear


We are officially metric in the UK but in reality we have a totally mixed system. Road distances in miles, speed restrictions in MPH, eggs packed in half-dozens and soft drinks in the original “6 pack” (half dozen). Pints of beer in pubs and pints_ or_ litres of milk on the doorstep. Most people think of their weight in stones. The list goes on ......


----------



## marcros

i have always used metric throughout my education. I now work for an American manufacturing firm (although I am office based) where all dimensions are in inches. I actually prefer to work in inches for woodwork, for some reason it just works better for me.


----------



## JakeS

RogerP":387bfv4e said:


> eggs packed in half-dozens and soft drinks in the original “6 pack” (half dozen)



I'm not sure these can really be considered a _metric_ thing particularly - the metric system and decimalisation are two very separate things. Most of Europe is entirely metric, and to the best my knowledge they still have two dozen hours in the day and 360 degrees in a circle!

(And surely everyone knows a circle should be divided by two pi radians... ;-) )


I did hear something once - no idea if it's made up or true - about Napoleon trying to decimalise everything from months in the year to degrees in a circle but (thankfully) not getting away with it.


----------



## nanscombe

I have used both imperial and metric in the past.

Once I dropped a socket set and all of the sockets scattered all over the floor.

I picked them up and started putting them back.

5mm, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm ... No problem.  

Then I started with the imperial ones.

1/4, 5/16, 3/8 ... Eh? :shock: 

I tend to stick to metric for woodworking these days. :wink:


----------



## Sawyer

By the way, even in France, the eggs are still sold by the _douzaine_. Even Napoleon couldn't get the hens to lay in metric! 8)

Marcros, I too find feet & inches far better for woodwork. There's something 'organic' about it which seems to suit the material. That's just me though...


----------



## Digit

I use both in both wood and metal. If the measurement is 22 mm I'll work with that rather than 0.866 inches.

Roy.


----------



## Tony Spear

SammyQ":1flouu2f said:


> Talking of standards that are taken as 'read', I know I'm going to put my foot (in my mouth) with Tony, but _criteria_ are plural,_ criterion _is singular......
> Sam



Actually Sam. my error was in using "that" instead of "those"! :wink:


----------



## bugbear

Digit":bic7nqry said:


> I use both in both wood and metal. If the measurement is 22 mm I'll work with that rather than 0.866 inches.
> 
> Roy.



Me too. But I really should break the habit. Mixing units is a recipe for cockups - just ask NASA.

BugBear


----------



## Digit

I don't need help from metrics to make mistakes!

Roy.


----------



## marcros

i wonder if that is why i prefer it- it makes me think that bit more and double check everything. And fractions are often easier to do mental arithmatic on than millimetres are.


----------



## condeesteso

marcros":3hxvgkce said:


> And fractions are often easier to do mental arithmatic on than millimetres are.


It's a good thing we are not all the same! I grew up imperial but now work metric almost entirely - I can halve (or thirds, on a Barocca day) 63mm far quicker than say 2 and 19/32nds (not the same thing, it's just an example).
But I have noticed two occasions for imperial: benches are for me overall inches, but round numbers. They are as long as you fancy, but 33" high (for me) and 21 or 22" deep.
And the various wood yards... they pretend to be metric but I watch them doing the conversion as we speak about a board. I'm sure most yards still cut imperial, then call it the metric equivalent. It will be a few years yet before the yards truly adopt metric I reckon.


----------



## Digit

As far as I'm concerned it should be based on logic. I don't want my Beer in CCs and I don't want my injections in Gills!

Roy.


----------



## marcros

condeesteso":2qlmorft said:


> marcros":2qlmorft said:
> 
> 
> 
> And fractions are often easier to do mental arithmatic on than millimetres are.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a good thing we are not all the same! I grew up imperial but now work metric almost entirely - I can halve (or thirds, on a Barocca day) 63mm far quicker than say 2 and 19/32nds (not the same thing, it's just an example).
> But I have noticed two occasions for imperial: benches are for me overall inches, but round numbers. They are as long as you fancy, but 33" high (for me) and 21 or 22" deep.
> And the various wood yards... they pretend to be metric but I watch them doing the conversion as we speak about a board. I'm sure most yards still cut imperial, then call it the metric equivalent. It will be a few years yet before the yards truly adopt metric I reckon.
Click to expand...


1/3rds, I'll give you, although i think you have taken advantage with your example.


----------



## SammyQ

Tony? I concur!  Sam

Wildman? See?


----------



## adzeman

Its interesting to read in these posts how man say they prefer the old Imperial measures especially for woodwork. This is because it was devised by builders I do not know if it was the masons or the carpenters way back in the Middle Ages when the Crusaders returned to blighty. Those guy's found arabic numbers easier to work with than the X's IV' and so on. At college (Leeds) we were taught Duo Decimals which are similar to Deco Decimals but have a base of 12 instead of 10. With a base of 12 you can describe a number more accurately in duo decimals, Have you ever queried why feet and inches are shown as 0' 0" these marks show which set is being described and can go on indefinately e.g. 0' 0'' 0''' 0''''' and so on. What we are short of is 2 extra numbers and those that are used internationally pror to 1971 were as follows 1. 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, @ * 10. Sizes are not defined by size but by nature 4x3, 6x3 a brick an 8'0"x 4' 0" sheet of ply a 6 6 x 2 6 door rise and go of a stair ceiling heights I am sure you can think of others. All trades were taught this system except the pattern makers who were a 100% metricated (painfull) Muliplication was easy you only needed your two times table and heavens a betsy there were 12 pence in a shilling.


----------



## Digit

The metric system was introduced mainly as an attempt to discard all that had preceeded it, a sort of 'year zero'. The French revolution even had a 10 day week! Apparently that went down like lead balloon with the 'Citizens.'
In 'nature' 1.2.4.8 is much easier to work with than 1.2,5.5.10.
Some how I doubt that our European friends cut their birthday cakes in metric portions.

Roy.


----------



## adzeman

How nice to here from someone who has studied this subject. Yes eight is better The decimal system only uses 10 because we have 10 fingers. Apparently the Arabs icounted on their knuckles of which there are 12. Octupuses are very good mathamaticians can predict football games!. Now we have computers the binary system is used that is 2 fingers to Napoleon


----------



## bugbear

adzeman":2ms0gpik said:


> Sizes are not defined by size but by nature 4x3, 6x3 a brick an 8'0"x 4' 0" sheet of ply a 6 6 x 2 6 door rise and go of a stair ceiling heights I am sure you can think of others.



I'm not fully sure that 8x4 sheets of ply occur in nature!

BugBear


----------



## JakeS

bugbear":2x59ixny said:


> I'm not fully sure that 8x4 sheets of ply occur in nature!



All the same, I think you'll find that they're a perfect integer number of Planck lengths in each direction! ;-)


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Imperial measurements are based on the human body, and on what used to be common activities. So a foot is about as long as a human foot, an inch was three barleycorns end to end, an acre was the amount an ox-team could plough in a day, a fathom is the length of a man's outstretched arms, a furlong is 'a furrow long' when ploughing, and so on. All very sensible if you haven't invented the tape-measure yet.

I used to listen the advice and obsessively separate imperial and metric measurements. In commercial and industrial work, that's vital to avoid confusion, but in the privacy of my own workshop I now quite happily mix both. If it's handy to make something 100mm x 2" I will.

By the way - I think the standard plywood sizes came about because they were made 6" wider and longer than you can conveniently get in your car!


----------



## adzeman

I am not a material technologist a worthy profession but the ply is knifed from a rotated log 8' 0" is probably 3 lengths out of a 25'0" long baulk (you can get 10' )"
and cutting the sheet in half to glue the across sheet. There will be a relationship between the length of the log and getting the makimum sheets out with the minimum of waste and the maximum of profit.


----------



## Digit

And a pint was supposed to be the capacity of a man's bladder!

Roy.


----------



## condeesteso

Just working on a cabinet today and needed the centre of a stretcher. Laid the steel rule down wrong side (imperial up) and noticed it measured 35 and a half and 3 and a bit Bits. The bit being about 1/3rd of a Bit - in fractions for consistency. I needed to check what bits (sorry, Bits) we were in here - turned out to be 16ths. That's why I like metric. I have an old steel rule somewhere calibrated in 10ths, 20ths, 8ths... down to an inch somewhere in 64ths. It opens paint tins quite well.


----------



## Digit

Would you have been better off with 906.4265 mm?

Roy.


----------



## condeesteso

Indeed Roy I surely would - let's call it 906.5... so easy 453.25. I did round it by 3 thou I admit but that's close enough for me... funny the rounding is done in thou :lol: I still do that a lot - .1mm is 4 thou, my smoother gets set to about 3 thou as a start-point. I'm English > I like imperial >it's just that it's a British Leyland measuring system.


----------



## Digit

Like I said earlier, I use both, but when the architect came up with dimensions for a house we planned on building with dimensions in thousands of mm it becomes plain ridiculous, and if you were transferring dimensions it matters not what the units are. 
For long dimensions I transfer using an extendable clothes prop! Every dimension is one unit long! :lol: 

Roy.


----------



## adzeman

Why all this measuring? did you not make a rod? or, put the peice of timber up to the work and mark off the dimension?


----------



## condeesteso

Agreed, I don't use rules much at all and think the rod approach and what looks right proportionally is far better. The finding of centre-point was just a rare example - i think a rule is useful for that. All the legs, stretchers and joint positions were taken from the first of each component - the most accurate rod.


----------



## Sawyer

Agreed, about rods; by far the best way to proceed with anything even remotely complex. But to make a rod, we first have to measure. There's no hiding place!!


----------



## Phil Pascoe

G.B. should have done the sensible thing, and gone metric in currency, weight, volume, distance and temperature all on the same day.
Imperial measurement would long have been forgotten. I have no problem with imperial (at 58 I was taught both), but why buttocks about in no man's land?
Incidentally, a retired pharmacist friend pointed out that overdoses were less common in hospitals when drug measurement was imperial - there was no decimal point error.


----------



## adzeman

Its still a fixation on measurement. Imagine if all measuring devices, rules and tapes had disintigrated into the ether and left you just with hand tools. You would still be able to put a roof over your head, make a door,a window, maybe a bed and a box to put all your valuables in? and call them Phills (I made this bed 6 Phills x 4 Phills) sounds better than feet or meters


----------



## marcros

adzeman":2ld2tzlh said:


> Its still a fixation on measurement. Imagine if all measuring devices, rules and tapes had disintigrated into the ether and left you just with hand tools. You would still be able to put a roof over your head, make a door,a window, maybe a bed and a box to put all your valuables in? and call them Phills (I made this bed 6 Phills x 4 Phills) sounds better than feet or meters



I agree with what you are saying but the problem comes when you are flicking through the ikea book for a table to fill your dining room. The size that you need is 1 Eric x 2Erics and everything is in damn Phills... :mrgreen:


----------



## Phil Pascoe

:roll:


marcros":3qd2tfmm said:


> adzeman":3qd2tfmm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its still a fixation on measurement. Imagine if all measuring devices, rules and tapes had disintigrated into the ether and left you just with hand tools. You would still be able to put a roof over your head, make a door,a window, maybe a bed and a box to put all your valuables in? and call them Phills (I made this bed 6 Phills x 4 Phills) sounds better than feet or meters
Click to expand...


I agree with what you are saying but the problem comes when you are flicking through the ikea book for a table to fill your dining room. The size that you need is 1 Eric x 2Erics and everything is in damn Phills... 
:roll: even better when you need one measuring 2 erics long x 1 phill high!


----------



## adzeman

Now IKEA this is a different world to sit on the loo with an IKEA catalogue dreaming as how to convert as many variations of a Billy as one can, ah
Now I have to agree with you


----------



## Phil Pascoe

All run out of time to be stupid, have we?


----------



## adzeman

He truth is I do convert IKEA furniture and I do go to the damaged section and purchase damaged parts to re-cycle. I have to admit to taking a tape and the Billy being a regular source of material But to keep on this thread have yo seen the latest vidio from woodgears where Mr Wandle demonstrates the construction of his jointer. He uses his drawings as a Rod. He flips from imperial to metric like a ballet dancer and note how many times he uses a tape, vernier calipers and his dial indicator. This man is an icon of accuracy.


----------



## PsyMan

I must admit that I too am an "Impetric" person myself and use whatever system to suit the job in hand, sometimes mixing and matching. I think that if they sold tape measures with one or the other then we wouldnt all be so confused all of the time. Having both on all of the measuring devices is a sure fire way to keep people in limbo.

On that note, I am off for 568.261485 millilitres of Bass


----------



## Digit

> On that note, I am off for 568.261485 millilitres of Bass



I can just imagine what the bar/man/maid/person will say to that!

Roy.


----------



## Templatetom

It seems that anyone who wishes to purchase template guides are restricted to the imperial sets that are produced. Recently I had been approached to see if I would be prepared to write and convert my articles, which are based mainly on the use of the guides,from metric to imperial. I asked myself would it be worth while for a 78years old to make the changes? I did and I must confess it was not the least bit easy even though I used the imperial measurements for over 20 years before making the change to metric. It is evident that the larger template guides are seldom used and therefore they remain in the box. Also the guides are mainly used with the straight cutters from the number of articles published in a number of magazines or books. Very little is shown where a 'face/edge' cutter is used.

Here is a simple project for consideration: _*Inserting an inlay 50mm/2" diameter *_ into a solid piece of material


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Digit":17ce25vo said:


> On that note, I am off for 568.261485 millilitres of Bass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can just imagine what the bar/man/maid/person will say to that!
> 
> Roy.
Click to expand...



They'll be even less impressed when you complain that you've only got 568.261484 millilitres, and demand a top-up.

By the way, since we were discussing parts of the body that have inspired imperial units, I wonder what inspired the 6" rule?


----------



## DTR

Cheshirechappie":3rmjljpt said:


> By the way, since we were discussing parts of the body that have inspired imperial units, I wonder what inspired the 6" rule?



I think I inspired the 10 thou feeler gauge


----------



## Digit

Anyone no the origin of the yardstick? :lol: 

Roy.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Digit":ztqaem7o said:


> Anyone no the origin of the yardstick? :lol:
> 
> Roy.



'Fraid that one's got me stumped....


----------



## dedee

It is not only eggs that are sold in imperial measurements over here. Wheels and tyres (or tires) for cars and bicycles are still sold in inches, worldwide.


Andy


----------



## Tony Spear

phil.p":18q779nl said:


> G.B. should have done the sensible thing, and gone metric in currency, weight, volume, distance and temperature all on the same day.
> Imperial measurement would long have been forgotten. I have no problem with imperial (at 58 I was taught both), but why pineapple about in no man's land?
> Incidentally, a retired pharmacist friend pointed out that overdoses were less common in hospitals when drug measurement was imperial - there was no decimal point error.



A pint? A pint? That's nearly an armful! :mrgreen: 

I'm also "bi-lingual" and a bloody good job too!

I spent a lot of time in Nigeria refurbishing Water Treatment Plants, many of which were built by the British. The problem was the fact that Nigeria is now totally metric and many of the plants were constructed in pre-decimalisation days, so when somebody faxed me back here and said he needed something that was 250mm, was it really that or was it 10"? :? :? :?


----------



## Digit

I was in the aircraft industry when it went metric, like you we sometimes had to query a dimension, some aircraft flew with both standards.

Roy.


----------



## adzeman

Does anyone remember the metric bricks that were manufactured in the 1970's? they were not produced for long because they did not work. If you live or in the Newcastle area have a look at the Byker Wall those are metric bricks.
I am suprised this thread is still running.


----------



## bugbear

dedee":3mfz6emj said:


> It is not only eggs that are sold in imperial measurements over here. Wheels and tyres (or tires) for cars and bicycles are still sold in inches, worldwide.
> 
> 
> Andy



My bike tyres are 700c x 28mm ?!

BugBear


----------



## SammyQ

My spare tyre defies measurement.. :-"


----------



## Templatetom

Templatetom":1l4s39ed said:


> It seems that anyone who wishes to purchase template guides are restricted to the imperial sets that are produced. Recently I had been approached to see if I would be prepared to write and convert my articles, which are based mainly on the use of the guides,from metric to imperial. I asked myself would it be worth while for a 78years old to make the changes? I did and I must confess it was not the least bit easy even though I used the imperial measurements for over 20 years before making the change to metric. It is evident that the larger template guides are seldom used and therefore they remain in the box. Also the guides are mainly used with the straight cutters from the number of articles published in a number of magazines or books. Very little is shown where a 'face/edge' cutter is used.
> 
> Here is a simple project for consideration: _*Inserting an inlay 50mm/2" diameter *_ into a solid piece of material


Has anyone considered the number of guide and cutter combinations that can be used to complete the simple project. ?


----------



## condeesteso

Here's a nice example. A Hibernia Marples b/e chisel, with a very fine London-pattern handle in box. So it's a few years old then.
Is it a 1 1/2? Nope. A 1 1/4" then. Nope.
It might be a 1 and 5/16ths and a bit, but it's not a 1 11/32nds.

(It does happen to be a 34mm though, and I can remember that.)
No sign it has ever been narrowed either. Mighty fine chisel from a great Marples period... I don't care what it measures but it will be the 34 for me.


----------



## bugbear

condeesteso":307eo340 said:


> Here's a nice example. A Hibernia Marples b/e chisel, with a very fine London-pattern handle in box. So it's a few years old then.
> Is it a 1 1/2? Nope. A 1 1/4" then. Nope.
> It might be a 1 and 5/16ths and a bit, but it's not a 1 11/32nds.
> 
> (It does happen to be a 34mm though, and I can remember that.)
> No sign it has ever been narrowed either. Mighty fine chisel from a great Marples period... I don't care what it measures but it will be the 34 for me.



Yeah - I tend to view chisels sizes as "nominal" in the same sense that no-one's ever seen a 2x4 that was 2 inches by 4 inches.

BugBear


----------



## condeesteso

That's right BB, it doesn't matter (I just thought it was quite funny). And back to the thread topic, the numbers don't really matter I think. When we can leave the rules aside, and use our eye, a rod for copying, the first part to mark the other three, etc... it's more precise but also quite liberating I think.


----------



## marcros

condeesteso":skihddb8 said:


> it's more precise but also quite liberating I think.



I agree


----------



## DTR

marcros":38ptiw70 said:


> condeesteso":38ptiw70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it's more precise but also quite liberating I think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree
Click to expand...


Me too


----------



## Benchwayze

SammyQ":1470d1dr said:


> Talking of standards that are taken as 'read', I know I'm going to put my foot (in my mouth) with Tony, but _criteria_ are plural,_ criterion _is singular......
> 
> 
> Yes, I know, I came across as an irritating pedant, in the Jacob corner perhaps , but as a classically educated Latinist and biologist who also wants to throw things at the telly when some talking head says (about a specific species) 'the bacteria has..' GRRRRRRR! "BACTERIUM HAS - BACTERIA HAVE"!!, I feel I have to express a mild whinge!
> 
> Tony, please feel free to object to this rant, it's Monday and 9B1 were particularly........challenging today.....
> 
> Sam



When you see the 'non-word Forums' at the top of each UKW page that must annoy you too Sammy?
It does me, but to whom do I complain? :lol:


----------



## Sawyer

Benchwayze":2w2wwece said:


> SammyQ":2w2wwece said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talking of standards that are taken as 'read', I know I'm going to put my foot (in my mouth) with Tony, but _criteria_ are plural,_ criterion _is singular......
> 
> 
> Yes, I know, I came across as an irritating pedant, in the Jacob corner perhaps , but as a classically educated Latinist and biologist who also wants to throw things at the telly when some talking head says (about a specific species) 'the bacteria has..' GRRRRRRR! "BACTERIUM HAS - BACTERIA HAVE"!!, I feel I have to express a mild whinge!
> 
> Tony, please feel free to object to this rant, it's Monday and 9B1 were particularly........challenging today.....
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you see the 'non-word Forums' at the top of each UKW page that must annoy you too Sammy?
> It does me, but to whom do I complain? :lol:
Click to expand...

Quod importet? Hic non Latinam sed Anglicam loquamur!


----------



## Jacob

SammyQ":21sgy3g7 said:


> Talking of standards that are taken as 'read', I know I'm going to put my foot (in my mouth) with Tony, but _criteria_ are plural,_ criterion _is singular......
> 
> 
> Yes, I know, I came across as an irritating pedant, in the Jacob corner perhaps , but as a classically educated Latinist and biologist who also wants to throw things at the telly when some talking head says (about a specific species) 'the bacteria has..' GRRRRRRR! "BACTERIUM HAS - BACTERIA HAVE"!!, I feel I have to express a mild whinge!
> 
> Tony, please feel free to object to this rant, it's Monday and 9B1 were particularly........challenging today.....
> 
> Sam


Haven't been following this thread but I just happened to notice my name being taken in vain again.
A "pedant" is someone who raises issues in discussion which aren't to the point but are about marginal details such as spelling mistakes or other nit-picky irrelevant details. So you yourself are a pedant without a doubt. Education is no excuse - and your spelling ain't too good either - see your profile - what is an optomist! :lol: an optimistic optician?
I don't think I am a pedant - on the whole I'm telling people_ not_ to get obsessed with details (all those bevels and microns :roll: ) but to just get on with it. 
There are some things which I think are important but when I raise them they usually are at least to the point, right or wrong. Of course this might look like pedantry to the uninformed.

Metric/imperial - I use both, and mix them. I tend to use metric for precision and don't often refer to imperial units smaller than 1/4" so e.g. I might be doing glazing bars 15" x 44mm x 14mm. I'd stick to imperial if using say a 1/2" mortice chisel as it is neither 12 nor 13mm.
As for odd sized chisels - except for mortice chisels there are very occasions in use where a precise specific width would be required.

PS I found a definition of "optomist"; someone who thinks that everything will be alright, even though they can't spell. :lol:


----------



## Benchwayze

Digit":33cbaoc6 said:


> And a pint was supposed to be the capacity of a man's bladder!
> 
> Roy.



I always thought the pint measure came in when brewers first weakened their product. The customers began drinking it in pints rather than in the normal halves. Thus pointing out the pineappling obvious to the Government of the time, when they legislated on the amount of alcohol that was permitted in ale. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Benchwayze

Just wondered about measuring chisels.

Doesn't it depend on the ambient temperature when one measures them? 
Yesterday my 2" chisel was a shade under 2 and 1/16th inches. And it was ruddy 'ot! 
When SWIMBO has gone out today, I'll stick it in the 'fridge for a bit then check it again! :lol:


----------



## condeesteso

crikey John... that is some coefficient of expansion you have there.


----------



## Benchwayze

Well it could have been my eyes Douglas! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

It was just a thought that crossed my mind TBH. And considering how chisels are made, there must be a certain craft in knowing how to arrive at the final size from white-hot metal, without too much waste off the grinder. So it isn't surprising there might be some differences in measured sizes. 

As someone pointed out, a good chisel is a good chisel, and speaking personally, I take the one I know will fit into the space I need to pare, or chop etc., without damaging the stock elsewhere. So in the end be it MMs or inches, it's the chisel 'that fits'. so to speak!


----------



## SammyQ

"When you see the 'non-word Forums' at the top of each UKW page that must annoy you too Sammy?"

Yes it does!But, I also apply the law of diminishing returns..is it worth the effort? 


Jacob, Thank you for the mis-spelling spotting; I'm offering no excuse,no fight-back, no whining, caught on my own petard n'est ce pas? I was going to mildly remonstrate at being labelled a pedant for correct use of English (Greek root) plurals, then realised you were playing your usual game of drawing people in to a 'flame war' as I (pedantically?) think it used to be called, for no good reason than enjoying yourself. Good day, evening or night, whatever the time is when you get this. 

Sawyer? illud super efficio woodwork tutus vos!! \/ 

Sam


----------



## Jacob

SammyQ":37zphl5h said:


> .... then realised you were playing your usual game of drawing people in to a 'flame war' as I (pedantically?) think it used to be called, for no good reason than enjoying yourself....


That's very unfair. 
I wasn't interested in this thread until I happened to see your post accusing me of being a pedant. Am I not entitled to respond? It's you yourself who appears to be trying to start a flame war by being gratuitously insulting, not to mention boringly pedantic.
I haven't previously insulted you as far as I am aware. If you don't like disagreements you shouldn't make disagreeable remarks.

Boring pedants who comment on others' spelling and grammar are always good for a laugh - you don't need to search very far to find that they can't spell either! I wonder if that's what turns them into spelling pedants in the first place? Personally I couldn't give a monkey's about other peoples' spelling.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":2ub7m1dg said:


> SammyQ":2ub7m1dg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talking of standards that are taken as 'read', I know I'm going to put my foot (in my mouth) with Tony, but _criteria_ are plural,_ criterion _is singular......
> 
> 
> Yes, I know, I came across as an irritating pedant, in the Jacob corner perhaps , but as a classically educated Latinist and biologist who also wants to throw things at the telly when some talking head says (about a specific species) 'the bacteria has..' GRRRRRRR! "BACTERIUM HAS - BACTERIA HAVE"!!, I feel I have to express a mild whinge!
> 
> Tony, please feel free to object to this rant, it's Monday and 9B1 were particularly........challenging today.....
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't been following this thread but I just happened to notice my name being taken in vain again.
> A "pedant" is someone who raises issues in discussion which aren't to the point but are about marginal details such as spelling mistakes or other nit-picky irrelevant details. So you yourself are a pedant without a doubt. Education is no excuse - and your spelling ain't too good either - see your profile - what is an optomist! :lol: an optimistic optician?
> I don't think I am a pedant - on the whole I'm telling people_ not_ to get obsessed with details (all those bevels and microns :roll: ) but to just get on with it.
> There are some things which I think are important but when I raise them they usually are at least to the point, right or wrong. Of course this might look like pedantry to the uninformed.
> 
> Metric/imperial - I use both, and mix them. I tend to use metric for precision and don't often refer to imperial units smaller than 1/4" so e.g. I might be doing glazing bars 15" x 44mm x 14mm. I'd stick to imperial if using say a 1/2" mortice chisel as it is neither 12 nor 13mm.
> As for odd sized chisels - except for mortice chisels there are very occasions in use where a precise specific width would be required.
> 
> PS I found a definition of "optomist"; someone who thinks that everything will be alright, even though they can't spell. :lol:
Click to expand...


Thank you for the long and very detailed explanation of why you're not a pedant.

BugBear


----------



## Sawyer

SammyQ":qqqftua3 said:


> Sawyer? illud super efficio woodwork tutus vos!! \/
> 
> Sam


 Eh? Sententia non sequere videtur.


----------



## SammyQ

Sawyer? Sorry, try: "Those about to do woodwork salute you"....least that's what I tried to conjure up in the best Gallic Wars tradition. I had my last formal Latin lesson in 1972.....but I have its roots in my job every day; just got too lazy to check declensions and cases I guess 


BugBear? Paul? Irony epitomised!  =D> 

Sam


----------



## Sawyer

Reckon I'd go for _Lignarii te salutant_.


----------



## Eric The Viking

JakeS":2zqnf1m4 said:


> I saw someone use "criterium" for the plural the other day.



Nice. That's actually for when you don't know which to use! 

I know we're drifting helplessly off-topic, but...

... I often write for public consumption, as part of my living. Although I know 'data' is a plural noun, it's still really difficult to avoid treating it as a singluar. I sometimes expand it to "the data set", to avoid the issue entirely, but often it feels really odd to treat it as a plural, even though it's technically correct. This is IT usage, rather than scientific, but even so.

I love the weirdnesses of English.

On Latin, presumably anticipation of woodworking was the reason we were all taught to decline Mensa at school.


----------



## Jacob

Eric The Viking":2gwxx3xy said:


> ..... Although I know 'data' is a plural noun, .....


It may well have been, but it isn't any longer. In fact 'datum' is hardly used except by surveyors or other specialists.
Like it or not, ambiguous or not, the meaning of a word is in it's usage.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":2co0x6lh said:


> Eric The Viking":2co0x6lh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..... Although I know 'data' is a plural noun, .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It may well have been, but it isn't any longer. In fact 'datum' is hardly used except by surveyors or other specialists.
> Like it or not, ambiguous or not, the meaning of a word is in it's usage.
Click to expand...


"back" :lol: :lol: 


BugBear


----------



## SammyQ

"seconded"


----------



## Sawyer

Jacob":1t6uyi86 said:


> Eric The Viking":1t6uyi86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..... Although I know 'data' is a plural noun, .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It may well have been, but it isn't any longer. In fact 'datum' is hardly used except by surveyors or other specialists.
> Like it or not, ambiguous or not, the meaning of a word is in it's usage.
Click to expand...

Quite so, we are speaking English here, and it evolves. Which was my point.

I love Latin though, for its history, its beauty and its majesty.


----------



## Jacob

Sawyer":38x4riri said:


> Jacob":38x4riri said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric The Viking":38x4riri said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..... Although I know 'data' is a plural noun, .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It may well have been, but it isn't any longer. In fact 'datum' is hardly used except by surveyors or other specialists.
> Like it or not, ambiguous or not, the meaning of a word is in it's usage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quite so, we are speaking English here, and it evolves. Which was my point.
> 
> I love Latin though, for its history, its beauty and its majesty.
Click to expand...

Actually Latin itself also evolved or changed continuously, when it was a living language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin#History_of_Latin


----------



## Sawyer

'Actually Latin itself also evolved or changed continuously, when it was a living language'

No doubt to the dismay of many 'worthies' of the day, who wanted everything written in stone:

_O tempores! O mores!_

Now then, what was the OP? Imperial measurements - we have the Romans to thank for all that!


----------



## John Brown

Jacob":18evlxpx said:


> Eric The Viking":18evlxpx said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..... Although I know 'data' is a plural noun, .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It may well have been, but it isn't any longer. In fact 'datum' is hardly used except by surveyors or other specialists.
> Like it or not, ambiguous or not, the meaning of a word is in it's usage.
Click to expand...

There is no apostrophe in that sort of "its".

I suppose that makes me a pedant.


----------



## Jacob

John Brown":3r6zwwsn said:


> Jacob":3r6zwwsn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric The Viking":3r6zwwsn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..... Although I know 'data' is a plural noun, .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It may well have been, but it isn't any longer. In fact 'datum' is hardly used except by surveyors or other specialists.
> Like it or not, ambiguous or not, the meaning of a word is in it's usage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no apostrophe in that sort of "its".
> 
> I suppose that makes me a pedant.
Click to expand...

It makes you a pedant if you point out that sort of mistake _out_ of the context of the conversation, in the way that we all know and love. But as this thread is talking about pedantry you are not a pedant - yet!
I often get 'it's' and 'its' confused but I don't lose any sleep over it.
Anyway I know how to spell 'optimist'. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Sawyer - O Tempora! O Mores! This is pedantry we're talking about!


----------



## sancho

In the states we only use decimals for engineering type dwgs with dimensionals that are down to .000" . For woodwork applications fractions are more widley used in the states.

Funny I just got a conversion app for my Iphone b/c I want to start using the metric system for my woodworking.


----------



## sancho

duplicate of my previous post sorry,


----------



## Eric The Viking

sancho":1vdcez47 said:


> In the states we only use decimals for engineering type dwgs with dimensionals that are down to .000" . For woodwork applications fractions are more widley used in the states.
> 
> Funny I just got a conversion app for my Iphone b/c I want to start using the metric system for my woodworking.



There is a good practical point to using the imperial system, at least for woodworking and building applications: in many many circumstances you need to divide things by odd numbers. This usually doesn't give you a nice result in metric. It's not perfect in imperial either, but it does at least take much of the guesswork out of it.

I grew up through the main "metrication" transition period here in the UK. Forty years on, I still have difficulty visualizing things in metres, whereas feet, pounds, ounces and inches (and fathoms and acres) I find easy to imagine. It doesn't matter much for engineering, but I think it does for measurements that 'interact' with people, in furniture, houses and so on.

And there's no doubt that imperial (and USA) thread sizes are far more suited to purpose than metric ones. Mr. Whitworth knew his business!

Your _mileage_ may vary, of course!

Cheers,

E.


----------



## bugbear

I don't think any of the units are especially suited to measuring particular things - in the "old days" virtually every trade had its own units, feet and inches be damned.

And French and German tradesman seem to have no trouble making "human" sized tables, chairs and houses.

I think Brits of my generation are just messed up by growing up with one set of units, and then having to half learn new ones.

I note that many "old" carpenters who have been forced to use millimetres daily by trade practice have no difficulty, and chatter happily about door openings in mm to my utter bafflement.

It's those with a choice (in which group I put myself) who seem most troubled.

BugBear


----------



## Eric The Viking

bugbear":1spgj9ub said:


> I don't think any of the units are especially suited to measuring particular things - in the "old days" virtually every trade had its own units, feet and inches be damned.


You've just contradicted yourself in one sentence 
These trades had their own units because they were convenient.
For example, measuring horses in 'hands' at least means the thing isn't going to rear up at the sight of a measuring stick of some sort!


> And French and German tradesman seem to have no trouble making "human" sized tables, chairs and houses.


It's not that you can't, it's that a measure divided into twelve (and fractions) is easier. Anyway, before Napoleon they used feet (which is, after all, an "Italian" measurement!), and after Napoleon they still used feet until they were forced not to! 


> I think Brits of my generation are just messed up by growing up with one set of units, and then having to half learn new ones.
> I note that many "old" carpenters who have been forced to use millimetres daily by trade practice have no difficulty, and chatter happily about door openings in mm to my utter bafflement.
> It's those with a choice (in which group I put myself) who seem most troubled.


I know what you mean, but some things are simply perverse: magnetic tape, for example, has always been measured in inches (not sure about wartime German paper-backed tape, but anyway). In the industries that use it we've always had 2" down to 1/8" (audio cassettes). Suddenly, in the computer industry (long a bastion of Imperial, incidentally), 1/8" became "4mm" (DAT), and 1/4" became "8mm". 

Why describe it incorrectly? The physical width didn't change, and it wasn't ever in whole metric units!

I think it's the same political correctness that gave us regulations on the straightness of bananas and cucumbers...


----------



## bugbear

Eric The Viking":148noyyo said:


> I think it's the same political correctness that gave us regulations on the straightness of bananas and cucumbers...



You know those are both myths, right?

BugBear


----------



## Eric The Viking

They're not myths at all. 

I used to have the actual EU directives in my possession (downloaded by me from the Europa web site). I may still have them somewhere in a filing cabinet. Trust me: they may have been utterly stupid, but they were completely real. 

The bananas one, incidentally, in the sneaky oblique way the EU does things, was actually intended to stop imports from the West Indies (small, sweet, curvy bananas) and favour those from former French colonies instead (large, fat, straight, and relatively not so sweet). I remember the technical language was very similar in the two documents, leading one to believe a lot of cutting+pasting had taken place, although I don't know of a geo-political reason for the cucumber one.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

I started junior school in 1961 and I still have an exercise book with sums in £'s shillings, pence and farthings - furlongs, chains, rods, poles and perches - pounds, stones and hundredweights - gallons, pecks and bushels. It's good to know that ten year olds now are so much smarter than we were then!
I can work in metric, but I can't estimate in metric to save my soul.


----------



## Sawyer

Eric The Viking said:


> It's not that you can't, it's that a measure divided into twelve (and fractions) is easier. Anyway, before Napoleon they used feet (which is, after all, an "Italian" measurement!), and after Napoleon they still used feet until they were forced not to!
> quote]
> 
> 
> What have the Romans ever done for _us_?


----------



## Eric The Viking

Saved penalties?

<grabs coat and sprints for the door>


----------



## Sawyer

Eric The Viking":skq92mfi said:


> Saved penalties?
> 
> <grabs coat and sprints for the door>




:lol: :lol: =D>


----------



## dunbarhamlin

The average drongo on the street today needs a calculator to use base ten.
Thirty years ago all and sundry used and converted between base 12, base 14, base 16, base 20 and more without furrowing a brow.

(Oh - and one is hoist by a mine (petard) - not caught by it)


----------



## t8hants

Use both, 4' 16mm is quite an acceptable way to measure.
Thats why tape rules have both systems on them.


----------



## sancho

even though Im just now learning and using the metric system ILO the imperial system, it seems to me a lot easier to subtract 305mm from 459mm then it is to subtract say 12 1/4" from 14 32/64"


----------



## Jacob

sancho":3qvt592d said:


> even though Im just now learning and using the metric system ILO the imperial system, it seems to me a lot easier to subtract 305mm from 459mm then it is to subtract say 12 1/4" from 14 32/64"


Not if you know that 1/4 is 16/64. In any case 32/64 would be expressed as 1/2.
You just need to know your 2 times sequence 2 4 8 16 32 64 and how to add/subtract simple fractions. Easy.


----------



## andys wood shed

We will be talking about old money next :lol:


----------



## sancho

Jacob":9sa0u8fy said:


> sancho":9sa0u8fy said:
> 
> 
> 
> even though Im just now learning and using the metric system ILO the imperial system, it seems to me a lot easier to subtract 305mm from 459mm then it is to subtract say 12 1/4" from 14 32/64"
> 
> 
> 
> Not if you know that 1/4 is 16/64. In any case 32/64 would be expressed as 1/2.
> You just need to know your 2 times sequence 2 4 8 16 32 64 and how to add/subtract simple fractions. Easy.
Click to expand...


I know it quite well. 

Remember Im a american, its what we use.

But IMO the metric is still easier.

whole numbers are way easier to figure out then fractions.


----------



## Eric The Viking

sancho":2v1s05pe said:


> But IMO the metric is still easier. whole numbers are way easier to figure out then fractions.



I think it all depends on what you're doing. 

Metres are an 'unhelpful' measure as they're not based on human beings (they're quite artificial). 
Fractions, once you get used to them, make dividing distances, areas, etc. easier.
Feet and Inches go back to the Romans, and probably earlier too (Phonecians?). They're loosely based on human measurements. For that reason I find them easier to work with, as I can imagine one foot far more easily than one metre (which doesn't fit anything naturally!).

But hey, we can use whatever suits us really.

Regards to Fullerton, Il. - I ran a training course there once!

E.


----------



## bugbear

Eric The Viking":1lk33m3u said:


> sancho":1lk33m3u said:
> 
> 
> 
> But IMO the metric is still easier. whole numbers are way easier to figure out then fractions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it all depends on what you're doing.
> 
> Metres are an 'unhelpful' measure as they're not based on human beings (they're quite artificial).
> Fractions, once you get used to them, make dividing distances, areas, etc. easier.
> Feet and Inches go back to the Romans, and probably earlier too (Phonecians?). They're loosely based on human measurements. For that reason I find them easier to work with, as I can imagine one foot far more easily than one metre (which doesn't fit anything naturally!).
> 
> But hey, we can use whatever suits us really.
> 
> Regards to Fullerton, Il. - I ran a training course there once!
> 
> E.
Click to expand...


Measuring the height of a cupboard in feet involves walking up a wall - easy for spiderman, perhaps...  

BugBear


----------



## sancho

Eric The Viking":153d0qgi said:


> sancho":153d0qgi said:
> 
> 
> 
> But IMO the metric is still easier. whole numbers are way easier to figure out then fractions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it all depends on what you're doing.
> 
> Metres are an 'unhelpful' measure as they're not based on human beings (they're quite artificial).
> Fractions, once you get used to them, make dividing distances, areas, etc. easier.
> Feet and Inches go back to the Romans, and probably earlier too (Phonecians?). They're loosely based on human measurements. For that reason I find them easier to work with, as I can imagine one foot far more easily than one metre (which doesn't fit anything naturally!).
> 
> But hey, we can use whatever suits us really.
> 
> Regards to Fullerton, Il. - I ran a training course there once!
> 
> E.
Click to expand...



Where in fulerton? At the Jr. College maybe?


----------



## Eric The Viking

Hewlett-Packard (training their customer engineers (big HP systems). I was trying to remember whereabouts it is/was. Google maps didn't come up with the office, so it may have been closed now. 

I enjoyed being a tourist in Chicago - did the usual things: Sears' Tower, Museum of Science+Industry (loved the U-boat!), etc. and all those wonderful Art Deco interiors in the Loop. Walking round in the early evening, they were all lit up.

Funny old world.

E.


----------



## sancho

I dont know where the HP plant was at. Maybe off of Chapman /Malvern and Hughes way.


----------



## Eric The Viking

Sorry, I can't remember. It was around 18 years ago now - scary thought!

E.


----------



## adzeman

I cant believe this thread is still running, obviously a lot of members have a somthing to say on this subject. There is ome passion running like votes for women or coming out of Europe.
I find what the Americans say interesting as I think they have got it right.


----------



## bugbear

adzeman":2rrgdv30 said:


> I find what the Americans say interesting as I think they have got it right.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 


BugBear


----------



## Templatetom

Eric The Viking":2e1op9lx said:


> sancho":2e1op9lx said:
> 
> 
> 
> But IMO the metric is still easier. whole numbers are way easier to figure out then fractions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it all depends on what you're doing.
> 
> But hey, we can use whatever suits us really.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Interesting number of reasons for selecting one or the other method of measuring. 

If we were to apply the system of choice when using template guides with the router what would be the preference of the member?. 

Over the past nine weeks whilst on holiday I have been looking into both methods. The reason being that most sets of guides are sold in the imperial mode and very few are available in the metric mode. Also the imperial sets are sometimes restricted to the largest guide being only 1" diameter. (Many people have asked me do we need anything larger).

I do have a preference, and I selected the metric system (Quoted by Sancho above) for the same reason, also I was able to find larger diameter guides to enable me to complete a greater number of routing processes. The largest guide available here in Australia in the metric is 40mm dia. I have also converted other guides to produce 50mm 60mm 70mm 80mm 90mm 100mm. Though I do not use these converted guides on a regular basis I use the 40mm very frequently, in fact this is the first guide I select to see if it is possible to use, first. (I consider the 40mm is the most important in my collection)

What are the advantages of using the guides?

Recently on one of the forums there has been a great interest in the 'Pantorouter' a great jig capable of producing a number or routing processes to rout a number of woodworking joints. (Mortice and Tenon) Certainly a Jig worth looking at. The method I have developed to produce the same joints are completed with a much simplier Jig. The jig is also produced with less expenditure and I also can promise you easier to construct. 

If anyone who has purchased the set of guides and is interested on how they can assist in the production of the same joints and many more; contact me with details of the guides you have and I will forward some information on how they can be used to produce either the Mortice and Tenon, (in a variety of sizes) Bridle Joint or 1/2 lap joint when using 19mm or 3/4" material of your choice, keeping it simple 42mm or 1-1/2" wide.

This offer is open to a few to try it out before going to print so if you are interested get in touch with details of the guides you have.

Tom


----------



## Templatetom

Carb-I-Tool Australia have introduced a set of guides (Imperial) enclosed is a CD on how the guides can be used


----------



## adzeman

Local builder building an extension to a property in the village had a moan today. Flat Roof joists 400 centres 8' 0" x 4' 0" sheets fitted perfect no waste. Inulation boards in metric dont fit without unnecessary waste.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Keep using 400mm centres - before long 8' x 4' s won't fit at all. 20 or 30 years ago your timbers wouldn't suit both a ceiling and a floor. How long is this going to take!


----------



## adzeman

Hi Phil, 







I am of the opinion this will not happen for a long time, not in my lifetime anyway. I am not one of those people that think metric or imperial is best. The change from Imperial to metric in 1972 was a political decision not a practical one. It has occurred and we all have to accept it. I am of the opinion that for building in the United Kingdom Imperial is the better system. In the late sixty’s I worked in Belgium and was quite happy to work in the metric system, no problems. This was because their materials and story heights are different to ours in particular their brick sizes. Bricklayers do not look at/think of measurements in Imperial or metric but in bricks for example an opening for a 760 or 2’ 6” door. The standard brick is 8½” plus a ½” joint giving a 915 or 3’ 0” opening. The 8½” due to firing could be 83/8” but the ½” is not measured it is created by hand pressure caused by experience.
Now does today’s Architect/draughtsman annotate 900? If it’s a 900 opening then if a timber door the frame will be tight, if its PVCu it will be fine. Incidentally I checked he ceiling joists on my friends extension and though the drawings showed 400 he put them in spacing them equidistance between the walls which happens to be 406 or 1’ 4” which is why the Imperial ply worked and the metric insulation didn’t.
In 1979 I was a Project Manager on one of the phases of the Byker Wall housing development in Newcastle for three years. This was the first and last time I came across metric bricks. Not 216 x 064 but specific metric dimensions 250 x 090. They did not work or true to say nothing worked with it windows and doors none standard. Simple things like rainwater outlets did not work. Roof tiles could not be used and they were roofed with metal sheets, but the lengths of sheets did not work and had a silly cut added. Heights are a problem i,e, coursing. The rise and go of stairs is still 9 x 7 which in Imperial is equal treads from finished floor to finished floor. I still come across people in the trade that don’t understand brick coursing. In 1987 I was asked to Project manage a block of luxury flats in docklands that had been running for a year. When I started on site I found the whole team had been replaced and target completion dates were looming. The site was a mess and the problem was the storey heights were wrong.
In conclusion I don’t think we are going to get a new brick for some time yet.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

I understand one of the main reasons for going metric was that the USA was also going to convert, was was of course horse feathers: the other of course was the Eussr. I did A levels in '72, so had the option of imperial or metric paperss so consequently I use both systems, but it'd be good to either have one or the other as the above post above so brilliantly illustrates. I remember walking into an arguement in the kitchen at work one day as to weather there were two or three feet in a yard!
Incidentally, I just saw a packet of Polo's for sale at fifteen shillings and ninepence. We don't seem to forget things that have been drummed into us!


----------



## Grahamshed

Fifteen and ninepence ? daylight robbery. You can get them for nine shillings and even that is extortionate


----------



## Giff

If you can use both use both, 2.4mtr of 3 x 2 ?. If you are doing a small drawing that you want to scale up use metric. Adding noughts to the metric version is easier than the imperial equivalent. Geoff


----------



## jamesicus

bugbear":1yl5pj5d said:


> Templatetom":1yl5pj5d said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......... Personally I was brought up in the imperial system (Fractions of an inch) .......... I think most people in the UK can "manage" in metric quite well; it's only the USA-ians who'll need the imperial version. (some irony there, surely!?)
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...

This really does apply to me. I was born and grew up in England 1929-1950. I have a difficult time visualizing metric measurements, but at the age of eighty three I am afraid it is too late to change for me.

James


----------



## Giff

Eh up James, you're a long way from home ! Yes I learned imperial at school as well as I don't think metric had been invented then ! I find adding up in multiples of ten easier and now use metric most of the time, but if I am explaining something to my wife I have to convert it back..but I still buy 8x4's of 18mm.. Geoff


----------



## heimlaga

As I see it the mayor drawback of feet and inches is that they are not the same everywhere. A Swedish inch is quite a bit shorter than an Imperial inch which is shorter than a Norwegian inch. There are hundreds of different inches in differeent countries. USA is such a huge country that they can disregard foreign measurements within their borders but on the European mainland the old system became a real problem towards the end.

Converting to metric is a slow process. There is no need to hurry. Finland went officially metric in the 1880-ies but old and new measurements were used side by side long after that. I am born in 1981 and still use Swedish inches and feet for some purposes. Those who are born in the 1990-ies generally use only metric. It took more than a century to convert the people to new measurements and all the time old and new has been used side by side.


----------



## mseries

To me, educated as school in the 70s and early 80s using 'the metric system', imperial makes no sense at all. Base 10 seems right and logical and it's consistent. That said I happily use imperial for measurement when woodworking since i learned most of my skills building model boats with my Dad and we always used feet and inches there. I use either, sometimes, both, my router cutters are all imperial ones though I use metric threads mostly.


----------



## bugbear

heimlaga":yi65l02x said:


> As I see it the mayor drawback of feet and inches is that they are not the same everywhere. A Swedish inch is quite a bit shorter than an Imperial inch which is shorter than a Norwegian inch. There are hundreds of different inches in differeent countries.



I didn't know that (and I'm quite interested in metrology and history).

I did know (due to my profession) that printer's measured varied *very slightly* from country to country until quite recently. They were similarly enough to be deceptive, but different enough to cause trouble!

Thank you!

BugBear


----------



## murrmac

May I say what a fascinating thread this has been ?

If I may make a contribution, I would like to mention the fact (for which I am in some small way responsible) that the standard (in fact universal) set-up for cutting a mason's mitre in post-formed worktops requires a 1/2" cutter in conjunction with a 30mm guide bush.

Back in 1988, as a callow "youth" (well, in my twenties ) I was employed as a wood machinist by a firm in Edinburgh who had the contract for supplying kitchen worktops to all the Wimpey Homes estates throughout the UK. This was a 8 hour job, every day, machining the joints to spec, and cutting the tops to length (with a glued on end strip when required. 

The process at that time involved the placing of the worktop into a robust and substantial cradle (made from mahogany as I recall) and the placing of one of two heavy templates made from 1/2" thick aluminium depending on whether you wanted a male or female cut.

After a couple of years machining these tops, and having cut several thousand joints, I had the Eureka moment one day that it just might be possible to incorporate the male and female templates into one, reversable, template, which could be used onsite by fitters, instead of the worktops having to be "factory cut". 

The long and short of it is that I went into business producing my invention (which sold under the name of the "VALUFORM postform jig" ) and I did in fact sell many of them, but for various reasons ( this was pre-internet remember) the business went belly up. In retrospect I would have been better patenting the concept of the "two templates in one" and licensing the idea ...

Anyway, getting back to the original thread , the set-up in the original 1980's jig (which btw was manufactured by Trend), involved a 1/2" cutter and a 30mm guide bush. I followed this spec in my jig, and it has since become universal among the legion of manufacturers who have copied and improved my invention, but there is absolutely no intrinsic reason why other parameters couldn't have been adopted.


----------



## Eric The Viking

murrmac":2qo29jhl said:


> If I may make a contribution, I would like to mention the fact (for which I am in some small way responsible) that the standard (in fact universal) set-up for cutting a mason's mitre in post-formed worktops requires a 1/2" cutter in conjunction with a 30mm guide bush...



How interesting! 

Your choice was very practical though - Elu then making the best routers, but cutters being mainly imperial here.

I can't see the sense of 'forcing' imperial or metric. IIRC, British plywood (and possibly other board) factories were converted to metric _thicknesses_ in the 1970s or early 1980s, yet standard boards remain to this day 8ft x 4ft (although expressed in metric). How daft is that?

It's not foolish, but it is harder to use metric for many layout and design tasks, when you are comfortable with imperial. For a start, many common imperial sizes were intended to work together, such as screws and drills and chisels and so on. Also you can divide imperial into halves, thirds, quarters, sixths, ninths, etc., very easily, and fractions are a crucial part of good layout. In imperial they can stay as fractions, so there's no cumulative error, but the big temptation in metric is to convert to decimal and then round them.

I'm lucky enough to be comfortable using both, and I like the size of the foot as an easy, by-eye measurement. I have an old house, and again it's easy to see what measurements should be (ten-foot ceilings, for example, and eleven-inch skirtings). that helps too. But I often resort to metric for small measurements, as that's easiest to use with my digital callipers. 

If I had digital callipers that would switch between decimal-metric and fractional-imperial at the push of a button, it would be brilliant, but I've never seen any.

E.


----------



## murrmac

Eric The Viking":i0qc7pt3 said:


> If I had digital callipers that would switch between decimal-metric and fractional-imperial at the push of a button, it would be brilliant, but I've never seen any.
> 
> E.



Eric , have a look at this ...http://www.machine-dro.co.uk/6-inch-imp ... tions.html


----------

