# Tap and die recommendations



## The Bear

Hello all
I'm looking for a metric tap and die set, new as its a gift. Ideally covering M 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 and possibly 3 and 12. Though it will be occasional use don't want something of questionable quality, sets made of cheese not required. I haven't decided on a budget, I can alter that depending on what you get for your money, though not going to be spending hundreds. Any recommendations?

Mark


----------



## Spindle

Hi

Go for Dormer or Presto - both top quality and available at substantial discount on a certain auction site.

Probably have to buy them as individual items though

Regards Mick


----------



## jasonB

Yes the Dormer E500 series taps are quite nice and OK for most materials though not cheap, as set with suitable dies etc would be

M3-M10 = £672 +VAT
M5-M12 = £392 + VAT

EDIT, Just checked the MSC weekly flyer and they have 40% off the sets


----------



## ss03947

If you don't want to spend a lot, buy them separate, see the link below;

http://www.tracytools.com/taps-and-dies/metric-taps-dies

SS.


----------



## MMUK

jasonB":2x9bscfb said:


> Yes the Dormer E500 series taps are quite nice and OK for most materials though not cheap, as set with suitable dies etc would be
> 
> M3-M10 = £672 +VAT
> M5-M12 = £392 + VAT
> 
> EDIT, Just checked the MSC weekly flyer and they have 40% off the sets




That's a discounted price? :shock: 

Where do you shop? Harrods? You can pick up the E500 series sets for much less than that.


----------



## shipbadger

I bought a set from Tracy Tools many years ago and apart from one I broke (silly boy) are still going strong. I opted for HSS rather than carbon steel though. Look at 'Always Available' from their menu on the left and then use the option selector to choose HSS or whatever you want. They may be from several different manufacturers but they will alll be reliable makes. Don't forget to buy a suitable tap holder 

Tony Comber


----------



## jasonB

MMUK":3qqd3oiw said:


> That's a discounted price? :shock:
> 
> Where do you shop? Harrods? You can pick up the E500 series sets for much less than that.



The prices I quoted are the full price, so 40% off those.

Got any links to these cheaper suppliers?


----------



## MMUK

Try Cromwell Tools


----------



## jasonB

Can't see any sets there, at least the search does not throw any up and none in their catalogue. Their individual taps are only a few pence cheaper than the source I quote though, but my source is cheaper when on offer.

J


----------



## RogerP

Whilst the very top makes are clearly best for a full time engineer I don't think it necessary for the occasional user.

I'd go for this set ...

http://www.workshopping.co.uk/product/hss-tap-die--drll-set-metric-m3-m12/VCOILTAPK05/

They're very good in my experience and even come in a nice box


----------



## MMUK

jasonB":2nq49srr said:


> Can't see any sets there, at least the search does not throw any up and none in their catalogue. Their individual taps are only a few pence cheaper than the source I quote though, but my source is cheaper when on offer.
> 
> J




Really you need an account with them (I get a massive discount off web and catalogue prices, on some things up to 65%). They do monthly offers and the Dormer E500 set M5-M12 was on offer a couple of months ago for, IIRC, £242+VAT


----------



## Flynnwood

See if you can track down your local Snap-On rep and ask for a price. The reps usually visit large car dealerships on a frequent basis. 

Worth a shot / phone call. You could even ring your local Ford/Vauxhall main dealer, ask for the workshop controller - then ask for the Snap-On rep's number.


----------



## t8hants

I would also consider what material are you intending to thread? If soft(ish) then a set of high carbon taps and dies would do, take your time, and lubricate the work, and all should be well. 
If steel threading is your intention then perhaps the extra expense of a HSS set will be needed. Also make sure the set you get has all three taps per given size, very cheap Chiwanese sets will only have a No2 and plug tap, as they are mainly for thread cleaning rather than cutting.

G


----------



## The Bear

Um, as a none metal worker it seems there is more to consider than I first realised.

So for steel, it seems HSS is best, softer stuff then CS will suffice?

Can someone explain why 3 taps per size are required. I'm talking about cutting fresh threads not cleaning old ones.

You'll gather I've never needed to use them before

The dormers are too expensive for me I'm afraid. I like the look of the set roger links to. I also like the idea of buying what I need as I go along but feel this will be a more expensive route as per tracytools prices if I end up with several different sizes

Thanks for the input so far

Mark


----------



## Spindle

Hi

The three types of tap and their uses are:

Taper (1) - This has a tapered lead in section to allow the tap to easily begin cutting, (start).

Second (2) - This has a much shorter tapered lead and is used to cut the thread to full depth in through holes.

Plug (3) - This has virtually no tapered lead and is used to finish the thread to full depth in blind holes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threading_(manufacturing)







I would still recommend buying 'quality' tooling, a snapped tap can be very difficult to remove. If you do not have a need to buy a set then go for individual sizes as you need them.

Regards Mick


----------



## The Bear

Thanks mick


----------



## paulm

I've hedged my bets and bought sizes as I've needed them for the important jobs and ones that I think are quite common and I'm likely to use again, I went for the Sherwood hss ones from Cromwell which have the three tap types for a given size and from memory were about £15 to £20 per size, and then have a cheapy set from Screwfix that I use occasionally for odd sizes where I don't think its worth buying a better version.

It may actually be better not to bother with the three versions of tap per size and just get the first and second tapers, they may work out cheaper, unless you think you are likely to need to thread blind holes ?

There may be better value around than the ones I got but I picked them up locally when I needed them quickly, and they seem to me to be decent quality and have been used several times with good success.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## jasonB

MMUK":1odguo60 said:


> jasonB":1odguo60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't see any sets there, at least the search does not throw any up and none in their catalogue. Their individual taps are only a few pence cheaper than the source I quote though, but my source is cheaper when on offer.
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really you need an account with them (I get a massive discount off web and catalogue prices, on some things up to 65%). They do monthly offers and the Dormer E500 set M5-M12 was on offer a couple of months ago for, IIRC, £242+VAT
Click to expand...


And the MSC offer price I posted was £235+VAT (392-40%) and no need for an account. So looks like I'm still shopping in the right place 

Personally I would not go for the ones in Rogers link as they are not split dies so you do not have the option of adjusting the fit and it also means on the larger sizes you have to make the cut in one pass which can take a bit of effort. I'd rather go for split dies that can be adjusted


----------



## MMUK

jasonB":290ncwgs said:


> And the MSC offer price I posted was £235+VAT (392-40%) and no need for an account. So looks like I'm still shopping in the right place





jasonB":290ncwgs said:


> M3-M10 = £672 +VAT
> M5-M12 = £392 + VAT




:?: :?: :?: :roll:


----------



## Harbo

I bought a cheapo HSS Clarke one and when the break replace with better quality ones. The case is quite useful .
Another thing with the Clarke ones are they are also not consistent in size - I had to work through all the 3 types to achieve the correct tap size!

For my clock making I acquired a few Dormer, Presto etc BA ones with my S/H lathe. I also bought a S/H set of Warrior ones with a few missing. Although Carbon they cut really well. A few of the smaller sizes were missing and I've replaced them with HSS Presto ones (which because of their tiny size are relatively cheap?)

Rod


----------



## MMUK

Harbo":1je8gezh said:


> Another thing with the Clarke ones are they are also not consistent in size - I had to work through all the 3 types to achieve the correct tap size!



They're not supposed to be. You need to use them in order - Taper, Second and finally, Plug. Each different tap cuts a greater amount of thread as you go and you don't get a full thread cut until you've used the Plug tap.


----------



## RogerP

May I remind everyone that the OP said "_occasional use_" and "_not going to be spending hundreds_" :roll:


----------



## Spindle

MMUK":z84b4iaq said:


> Each different tap cuts a greater amount of thread as you go and you don't get a full thread cut until you've used the Plug tap.



Hi

That's not my understanding - all types of tap have the full thread form for some degree of their length, the type of tap determines when the full thread form begins.







Regards Mick


----------



## MMUK

That's pretty much what I said Mick :?


----------



## Spindle

Sorry MMUK - I read your reply as you had to use all three taps in order before the full thread depth was achieved  

Regards Mick


----------



## MMUK

Spindle":2c8t8t41 said:


> Sorry MMUK - I read your reply as you had to use all three taps in order before the full thread depth was achieved
> 
> Regards Mick




My bad, probably didn't explain myself clearly, I meant full depth of the thread pitch.


----------



## Harbo

Well what I meant was I was tapping a through hole to take a 10M bolt.
It wasn't until I had used the plug that I achieved the correct thread - and that was after threading the other two all the way through.

I know they differ in threading length but they should be the same diameter?

Rod


----------



## MMUK

Harbo":2m64nwn6 said:


> I know they differ in threading length but they should be the same diameter?
> 
> Rod



Not quite, the Taper only cuts about 40% of the pitch depth, the Second cuts it to about 80% depth and the Plug cuts the thread pitch to full depth.

By pitch depth, I mean the depth across the width of the hole, if you follow me?

If you look at each tap in turn, you'll notice that the "teeth" get deeper from Taper to Second and Second to Plug.


----------



## Spindle

Hi

Link to threading basics article:

http://www.threadtools.com/Files/Taps%2 ... 20info.pdf

Regards Mick


----------



## shipbadger

Just a long shot, but if the OP is only going to use the taps ocassionaly, what about buying one of the sets Lidls (and presumably Aldi) sell every so often to see which sizes are needed more often and then buy decent ones of those. The other thing that appears unknown, are these for cutting threads from scratch or thread restoration. If the former then a set of appropriate drills needs to be factored into the costs. The LIDL sets are to German DIN standards and are fine for cleaning out old threads. 

Tony Comber


----------



## RogerP

shipbadger":2wei4rhq said:


> ........... If the former then a set of appropriate drills needs to be factored into the costs. .........
> Tony Comber


The set I recommended has the appropriate drills included.


----------



## jasonB

MMUK":1yscyk6g said:


> Harbo":1yscyk6g said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know they differ in threading length but they should be the same diameter?
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite, the Taper only cuts about 40% of the pitch depth, the Second cuts it to about 80% depth and the Plug cuts the thread pitch to full depth.
> 
> By pitch depth, I mean the depth across the width of the hole, if you follow me?
> 
> If you look at each tap in turn, you'll notice that the "teeth" get deeper from Taper to Second and Second to Plug.
Click to expand...


Really only applicable to sequential or serialtaps, which you do need all three to get the full depth engagement. For the majority of hand taps if you are cutting a through thread in thin material it can be done with a taper tap only.

serial taps explained

J


----------



## The Bear

They are for cutting new threads

The split dies I assume are tightened/slackened by the holder to cut in stages until final fit is achieved ??? How important is this and if very, why are they made not split?

Cheers

Mark


----------



## MMUK

The split dies are split for two reasons. 1. To aid stock removal and 2. To prevent jamming by allowing the die to flex.


----------



## Spindle

Hi

General info re dies and die nuts:

http://www.threadtools.com/Files/Dies%2 ... 20info.pdf

Dies are split to allow for fine adjustment to suit the male thread and to allow compensation for wear. Fully opening a die will also allow an easier first run to be taken in difficult materials.

Regards Mick


----------



## jasonB

The plain circular and hexagonal dies are generally regarded as suitable for cleaning up existing threads that may be damaged or rusty.

The split ones are best for cutting new threads, for this reason they tend to have a lead taper much like a taper tap of two ot three turns of thread which make sthem easier to start. As I said above they can initially be opened up which makes cutting the larger thread sizes easier and then tightened down to give a final cut that and that can be adjusted to give a suitable fit. You will likely find that mass produced nuts are a slacker fit than if going into a tapped hole so your male threda can be adjusted accordingly.

J


----------



## DTR

jasonB":1pgf5tr3 said:


> MMUK":1pgf5tr3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harbo":1pgf5tr3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know they differ in threading length but they should be the same diameter?
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite, the Taper only cuts about 40% of the pitch depth, the Second cuts it to about 80% depth and the Plug cuts the thread pitch to full depth.
> 
> By pitch depth, I mean the depth across the width of the hole, if you follow me?
> 
> If you look at each tap in turn, you'll notice that the "teeth" get deeper from Taper to Second and Second to Plug.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really only applicable to sequential or serialtaps, which you do need all three to get the full depth engagement. For the majority of hand taps if you are cutting a through thread in thin material it can be done with a taper tap only.
> 
> serial taps explained
> 
> J
Click to expand...


+1.

Incidently, I find that sequential taps are a pain in the ar*e to use. I think it's because the taper tap doesn't "engage" with the hole as good on account of its reduced outside diameter. I won't be buying serial taps again.


----------



## chipmunk

DTR":15adz286 said:


> Incidently, I find that sequential taps are a pain in the ar*e to use. I think it's because the taper tap doesn't "engage" with the hole as good on account of its reduced outside diameter. I won't be buying serial taps again.



I think the main problem is that for serial taps the ideal tapping drill size should be smaller than the conventional taper tap tapping drill size. I don't know where those drill sizes are listed though - Anyone know?

Jon


----------



## MMUK

M3 = 2.5mm
M3.5 = 2.9mm
M4 = 3.2mm
M5 = 4.2mm
M6 = 5.0mm
M7 = 6.0mm
M8 = 6.8mm
M9 = 7.8mm
M10 = 8.5mm
M12 = 10.2mm


----------



## Gerry

General rule of thumb to get the correct drill size for Metric taps is to deduct the pitch from the diameter.

Gerry


----------



## chipmunk

Thanks guys, those are the tap sizes for conventional taps, as given for example in the Zeus book. I know those well.

I was perhaps not clear enough - the issue is that for serial taps the first tap is only very slightly larger than the conventional tapping drill size and so often doesn't really engage well and cut a decent thread. I think that the serial tap drill sizes are probably less than these by some margin - say diameter minus 1.5 x threadpitches?

Jon


----------



## jasonB

Serial taps use the same size tapping drill as normal ones which can usually be worked out for Metric by subtracting the pitch from th emajor diameter.

Where you do use a smaller tapping drill is when using thread forming taps which may be what you are thinking of. These have little or no flutes so don't cut away any metal, instead what they displace from the crest fills the root. As an example the M6x1.0 needs a 5.5mm tapping hole rather than 5.0mm for a conventional tap

J


----------



## The Bear

Hi

Its been a while since I started this thread but I've now bought the individual taps I need. On the basis of the advice here I scouted around for ages and got what I needed in Dormer E500 very cheap.

I have a couple more questions. Since I've got good quality do I need a good quality tap wrench or will any cheapo do. Are they much the same or are named ones better for some reason? Suggestions please.

Also do I need to buy a couple of different sized wrenches? Biggest tap I have is M12, smallest M4. I see wrenches that will hold both, but if I buy only one is it likely to be too unwieldily on the 4s or too small on the 12s?

Thanks in advance

Mark


----------



## shipbadger

Mark,

Yes you will need some different sized tap holders. Although you may find one covering the whole range it will be far too clumsy for M4 if it will cope with M12, and you stand a good chance of breaking the tap. I would suggest that you will need two, more likely three. Tapping by hand needs some practice, if you know how to do it OK, but if not come back to this thread and I or someone else will explain. Essentially you need to develop a feel for what is happening and a too large holder will prevent this. With regard to make, as with all tools cheaper ones will have less effort put into their manufacture. They will do the job but common faults include adjuster screws that are sloppy or taps that are not held at a right angle to the handle. I've all sorts from real cheapies to decent ones made by Eclipse. As you've managed to source some decent taps it woould be a shame to spoil the job for a happence of tar.

Tony Comber


----------



## Spindle

Hi

As said above, you will need different sized wrenches and I'd go for good quality if only for the in hand feel. For the smaller sizes I find the 'T' bar type wrench easier to handle, standard type for larger sizes, (above M6).







Regards Mick


----------



## The Bear

Thanks guys
Whats a good make for tap wrenches, without breaking the bank, esp if a need a couple or three

Mark


----------



## Hemsby

Hi

The best & probably the cheapest is not to buy hand taps.

Buy Spiral point machine taps you only need one tap per thread size, as the name suggests they are made for machine tapping but can easily be used conventionally by hand. 

They are produced with a very short slight taper and require a degree of “lining up by eye when starting the thread if using by hand from then on its no problem. You can always start the thread in a bench drill to ensure a vertical start by rotating the tap in the drill chuck by hand for the first few threads.

The advantage of machine taps is that they are designed to cut continuously without having to stop, until you reach the required depth

For thru holes no problem, if you are tapping a blind hole and need to get closer to the bottom you can always grind some of the point off.

Spiral point designed to push the swarf forward so perfect for thru holes and where there is a small clearance at the bottom of the drilled hole

Spiral flute taps are for tapping blind holes and are designed to bring the swarf up out of the hole. These taps are weaker than spiral point due to their design

It is probably 40 years + since I used hand taps only ever bought spiral point or spiral flute taps for my engineering factory mostly used on machines but also use many times for hand tapping. Retired now and have a small selection of spirals still and occasionally have to buy a new tap but would only consider spiral point taps

This link is just one I came across http://www.parkertools.co.uk/Product/04 ... iral+Point

I would only consider HSS


----------



## The Bear

Hemsby
Thanks for the reply. As per my previous posts I have already bought the taps, luckily for the set of 3 HSS Dormers I spent less than your link for one. Appreciate your suggestion may be quicker but thats not really going to be a problem for the level of use they'll get.
However you seem to know what your taking about, so do you have a suggestion on a make for the tap wrench?

Cheers

Mark


----------



## Hemsby

The Bear":296kxndv said:


> Hemsby
> Thanks for the reply. As per my previous posts I have already bought the taps, luckily for the set of 3 HSS Dormers I spent less than your link for one. Appreciate your suggestion may be quicker but thats not really going to be a problem for the level of use they'll get.
> However you seem to know what your taking about, so do you have a suggestion on a make for the tap wrench?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mark


 
Hi Mark 

Sorry that will teach me to read things better. 

Although you have already bought your taps if you need to buy more in future, might be worth trying a spiral point, because they normally have only 2 flutes (3 on hand taps) and they cut like a hot knife thru butter even in the hardest of steels. 

I would not worry about the price you pay for a tap wrench its really not important for occasional use they all do pretty much the same job, main difference is a straight or "T" type and that is what feels most comfortable in your hands  . 

The cheaper wrenches have a fixed V in which the top of the tap fits and the rotating section of the wrench handle secures against the opposite side of the tap. 

The better quality have the fixed V but the rotating section of the wrench pushes an opposite sliding V trapping the square of the tap. (hope this makes sense could not think how to explain this) 

"T" wrenches have a square collet clamping arrangement 

Die holder choice can be a bit more tricky. In some of the cheaper versions the bore in the holder that holds the split die can be too big and there is a danger that if you apply too much pressure on the screw that forces the die open it can split the die in two  

Good Luck =D> 

regards 

Keith


----------



## Spindle

The Bear":1vy3ekak said:


> Whats a good make for tap wrenches, without breaking the bank,



Hi

Look out for Moore and Wright, Presto or Eclipse - all good makes that will last several lifetimes.

If you have the time and inclination, boot sales are a pretty good source and electrolysis will remove any corrosion  

Regards Mick


----------



## The Bear

Thanks guys

Mark


----------

