# American Oak dining table



## Karl (28 May 2009)

Hi folks

SWMBO has dictated that our new dining table MUST be completed before I can make a start on my competition entry....  

I had a trip to the timber merchants with Brad today, and came back with this little lot:







I haven't done a "proper" sketch - I have the picture in my head, and you will see it progress over the next few days. I should have this finished by Sunday. Fingers crossed.

Anyway, the timber is a mixture of 1", 1 1/2" and 2" American Oak. We checked with the timber yard, who cofirmed that moisture content is between 9-11 %. So i'm happy to get on with machining straight away - no acclimatising for this little lot....

These 4 pieces will form the rails. I will be putting a cross rail underneath the table top between the two long rails, joined with through wedged mortices. The joints between rails and legs will be pinned mortice and tenon joints






The timber was nice and flat - no twist or cupping/bowing. So I passed it straight through the thicknesser. I then edge jointed each piece by hand






The Veritas twin screw vice is great at this sort of stuff - the piece in the vice is 6' long and it held it more than securely enough to joint the edge.

I then set the table saw for ripping to width - mainly to remove the small amount of sapwood present. 






Treated the Metabo to a new Freud combi blade. Wish I hadn't bothered - it doesn't perform nearly as well as the one supplied with the saw, and the dust extraction has gone AWOL. :evil: 

Anyway, onwards and upwards as they say.....

Ripped to width the rails were put to one side, and I turned my attention to the legs. 






These pieces of 1 1/2" stock are to form the legs. I first crosscut the pieces to length






I was being a little lazy here - the stock was too long to be put on the saw for all crosscutting, so I did the first cut by hand on the bench, and the second on the table saw. 

Once all pieces were thicknessed, jointed, ripped to width etc I ended up with 4 sets of these






Each leg will consist of 3 pieces laminated together. Therefore each glue surface was hand planed to remove twist, snipe, cupping/bowing etc. Ended up with all pieces planed and ready for clamping






I only managed to get two glued up - ran out of bloody clamps....






And that's as far as I got today. Tomorrow - glue up the other two legs and cut all four to size. Cut the mortice and tenon joints on rails and legs. Hopefully get the cross rail piece done.

Now it's time for one of these






Total time spent on project today - 6 hours

Cheers

Karl


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## Ironballs (28 May 2009)

Looking good Karl and nice quick work. In fact the only thing I have issue with is that headache in a bottle masquerading as beer


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## TrimTheKing (28 May 2009)

Hey, slow down Flash!

If my missus sees this she'll start asking all sorts of awkward questions about the speed of my output, so to speak


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## Paul Chapman (28 May 2009)

Good progress, Karl. Will watch this one with interest.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## OPJ (28 May 2009)

Looking good, Karl. 

Most people find Freud blades over a significant improvement over any supplied blade from the manufacturer... Perhaps you would have been better off with a dedicated ripping blade? Keep the combi blade for sheet materials and cross-cutting.


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## MikeG. (28 May 2009)

So Karl, 

are you the chap who shares a workshop with the legendary Brad many-names Naylor? 

My minor concern about this project (apart from the show-offy speed :wink: ) is that the timber will not have had any chance to acclimatise. Aren't you a bit worried about movement?

Mike


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## Karl (29 May 2009)

Morning guys

Mike - no, i'm not the guy who Brad works with. I met Brad through this forum. I have been working over in Stockport, so we went to the timber yard he normally uses to introduce me to the guys, and so that I can get his special rates on timber. Cheaper than the supplier I was using before. 

I'm not overly concerned about wood movement. It was already dried down to 9-11% moisture content, and will be placed in a dining room away from the radiator.

Olly - the reason I got the Freud was because it said on the packaging that it was  ripping and crosscutting, but only  for cutting sheet materials (seriously - they use those smiley faces for rating the product). Very dissapointed with it.

I might not get as much done today as I intended - i've got to go out working this morning, so won't get back on the project until lunchtime. Will post update this PM.

Cheers

Karl


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## yetloh (29 May 2009)

What made you choose American oak Karl? I can see the advantage of reduced wastage from square edge boards but I have always thought European oak so much nicer.

Jim


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## woodbloke (29 May 2009)

yetloh":1izbs6zy said:


> What made you choose American oak Karl? I can see the advantage of reduced wastage from square edge boards but I have always thought European oak so much nicer.
> 
> Jim


I've made one or two bits and pieces in kilned AWO and I've found it awful...English or european air dried stock is far better to work with IMO - Rob


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## newt (29 May 2009)

Karl interesting project. I have found my electra beckem eg matabo blades that came with my PK200 better than any of the replacements I have tried.


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## frugal (29 May 2009)

Ironballs":3a5b2rz1 said:


> Looking good Karl and nice quick work. In fact the only thing I have issue with is that headache in a bottle masquerading as beer



Well, he wouldn't want to drink anything with actual alcohol in it in the workshop would he :twisted:


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## Karl (29 May 2009)

Frugal/Damian - I would just like to point out (before I have the safety brigade crawling all over me) that I didn't actually open that beer until I had turned all machines off.... :lol: 

Jim/Rob - I chose AWO over European stuff primarily on cost. I looked at the oak which Brad uses in his shop (he's got a big project on the go at the moment) and it looks the same as European Oak to my eyes.

There won't be much done on it today - i've only just got back from work, and the weather is too nice not to miss this opportunity to put my little BBQ table to use! So I will just be gluing up the two legs which I didn't have sufficient clamps for yesterday.

Legs/rails and mortice and tenons tomorrow. Maybe a little peak at the plans for the table top too....

Cheers

Karl


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## Karl (29 May 2009)

Aside from gluing up the final leg, I thought that I would clean up one of the legs and apply a coat of finish, as I was a little concerned at the apparent colour variation in the timber






Ignore the light colouring at the bottom of the photo - that is just the effect of the flash. 

Anyway, I checked with SWMBO and she was happy with the colour variation. "It shows that it was hand made" - yeah, right :lol: 

This was the most offending leg, so it will be placed at the "back" of the table - one side will sit more towards a wall. V pleased with the laminated joints though - they came out really well.

I also did a little mod to my table saws riving knife, but i'm going to put up a separate post about that.

Cheers

Karl


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## JonnyD (29 May 2009)

The laminating looks like it turned out well. One thing I often do when laminating up table legs is order in 2inch wood 8-9 inches wide and cut the plank in half and join them together to get a 90mm square leg. The faces that join are in effect bookmatched and there is little colour variation. 

Jon


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## Karl (29 May 2009)

Jon - now why didn't I think of that? Would have been fewer joints to laminate and hand plane too.

Next time......... :lol: 

Cheers

Karl


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## BradNaylor (29 May 2009)

woodbloke":33fb6kdm said:


> yetloh":33fb6kdm said:
> 
> 
> > What made you choose American oak Karl? I can see the advantage of reduced wastage from square edge boards but I have always thought European oak so much nicer.
> ...



I don't know where all this air dried timber you go on about comes from, Rob...

As far as I am aware virtually all European oak is kiln dried at some stage. It just doesn't make financial sense for a timber merchent to have stock lying around for years on end air drying.

The AWO that Karl bought is of fantastic quality and dry enough to use straight off the truck. It is also little more than half the price of European oak given the relative current exchange rates.

I would challenge you or anyone else to distinguish a piece of this AWO from European. The only time I would use European oak at current prices is if a client specifically requested lots of 'interest' in the figure. AWO can be a little bland.

Cheers
Brad


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## JonnyD (29 May 2009)

I tend to use european oak on kitchens but recently the price has been going up almost monthly. I have done a few jobs recently in AWO and have been impressed with the quality of the timber much better than I remember. Most clients dont know the difference and dont care as long as the finished furniture looks good so I may well be using more AWO in the future.

Jon


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## Chems (29 May 2009)

BradNaylor":3gb6jaqf said:


> woodbloke":3gb6jaqf said:
> 
> 
> > yetloh":3gb6jaqf said:
> ...




I don't understand it either I always thought Kiln dried was ok? I've only ever used Kiln dried mixed with a bit air drying and its been perfectly stable. Rob I'd be intrested to see a little test between Kiln and air dried if you had some about?


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## OPJ (29 May 2009)

Mike Garnham":3r5jrs14 said:


> My minor concern about this project (apart from the show-offy speed :wink: ) is that the timber will not have had any chance to acclimatise. Aren't you a bit worried about movement?



I would also share some concerns but, in the real world, where you would have to make money in this game (time is everything!), it isn't feasible to leave wood lying around for three months - especially when you don't have the space to store several jobs-worth of wood at one time! :wink:

American timbers are dried to the point at which they're almost 'bone-dry' before being stuffed in to a container and sent overseas - this helps to keep the weight and costs down, basically. This wood is bound to have picked up some moisture from the salt air during its travels but, it's still likely to be drier than anything that was originally grown in this country.

Normally, I'd rough cut all the components over size and try to leave them for a few days - the big risk with any timber that's been kiln-dried (and I'm sure Rob was alluring to this! :wink is that there will be some moisture 'trapped' in the centre, which can create tensions and lead to problems such as case-hardening. This is more common with thicker, wider stock, usually 3" thick.

I'm getting in to the habit of not worrying too much about frame components. They're relatively small and, unless they're 'green', any movement should be minimal and barely-noticeable at worst. It's the top I'd be most concerned with; the last thing you'd want is for that to start jumping around once you're finish goes on! :shock: But, that should have _some_ time to settle while you work on the frame.

Now, I'm really looking forward to seeing this one finished so we can see whether Karl was right or wrong!! :twisted: (...Only joking! )


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## Karl (29 May 2009)

Olly - I understand your points. The stock was nice and flat to start with, so minimal skimming of the surface was required. Even the bigger timbers for the top won't have a great deal removed - it isn't going to be a top in the traditional sense, but more of that tomorrow. 

If it goes **** up and it has all warped in a months time, i'll show you the piccy's after i've "done a Rob" :lol: 

Cheers

Karl


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## BradNaylor (30 May 2009)

OPJ":c2yqwrwk said:


> American timbers are dried to the point at which they're almost 'bone-dry' before being stuffed in to a container and sent overseas - *this helps to keep the weight and costs down, basically.*



Not strictly true.

Shipping companies charge by the container, not by the weight. The only weight restriction is the maximum that can be carried by a truck.

Cheers
Brad


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## newt (30 May 2009)

Brad, Yandles stock air dried Oak.


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## Ironballs (30 May 2009)

There was also a little debate about Euro v US timbers and moisture content, Sgian Dubh weighed in with some useful info that showed that in the US they generally dry to a higher moisture content than over here, I think it was around 15%


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## Richard Findley (30 May 2009)

I buy most of my Oak from Lathams and they told me that their AWO is better suited to indoor use as it is KD to a lower MC than their Euro Oak, which they would recommend for outdoor use/joinery such as window frames etc.

Great project by the way. I will be keeping my eye on your progress. Good luck!!!

Richard


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## woodbloke (31 May 2009)

Karl":28mc8kwp said:


> ... after i've "done a Rob" :lol:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Karl


This could be a new trend setting feature on the forums :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## Karl (31 May 2009)

Just a quick update. Not got much done on the project as it was our daughter's birthday yesterday and the weekend has been taken over by visitors, a horse riding party and a round of golf...

We have thrashed out the final size of the table, and below is a scaled drawing I have done 







Overall sizes are 1550mm long, 900 wide and 750mm high. The top is 40mm thick, the legs 75mm square and the rails 110mm, reducing to about 80mm.

The two shaded squares are pieces of granite, which have been chosen to match the granite worktop we have in the kitchen. At some point in the future we may open up the kitchen and dining room into one large kitchen diner, and we thought that this feature would provide some continuity.

The rest of the top is from solid oak, except for the centre piece. I am going to veneer this section, as I don't want to risk putting in solid timber, only for it to be trapped between two pieces of granite. 

The frame is very basic, the only detail being the pinned and through mortice and tenon joints, the shape to the rail and a chamfer to the edges of the legs. SWMBO was adamant that she didn't want any shaping on the legs.

Aside from finalising the design, I managed to get all legs planed flat and 2 faces square to each other, ready to go through the thicknesser tomorrow. 

I need to pick up another length of 2" stock this week as the top is going to be a little wider than I first anticipated, and all components will need to be jointed from a couple of pieces.

Any comments welcome.

Cheers

Karl


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## JonnyD (31 May 2009)

I think you would be ok to make the central piece from solid wood as the wood is very unlikely to expand that much and is more likely to shrink. Could you leave a 2mm shadow gap all around the granite?

Jon


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## Sgian Dubh (1 Jun 2009)

Ironballs":33vqxsga said:


> There was also a little debate about Euro v US timbers and moisture content, Sgian Dubh weighed in with some useful info that showed that in the US they generally dry to a higher moisture content than over here, I think it was around 15%



Actually, the North American standard for moisture content is 7%, ie where the end product is for the commercial market and nearly all of it is aimed at that market. It's higher in Europe where the target MC is between 10 and 12% MC. 

I understand there may be moves afoot to bring the European target MC for kiln dried wood closer to the North American standard, but as yet I haven't been able to verify this as a fact-- I need to investigate further, something I haven't had time to do. Slainte.


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## Tierney (1 Jun 2009)

Looking good so far; I'm tempted to try and build a similar table in a short space of time, so am watching with interest.

David


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## Ironballs (1 Jun 2009)

Sgian Dubh":n95en7sr said:


> Ironballs":n95en7sr said:
> 
> 
> > There was also a little debate about Euro v US timbers and moisture content, Sgian Dubh weighed in with some useful info that showed that in the US they generally dry to a higher moisture content than over here, I think it was around 15%
> ...



Ah well, half right :roll: 

Thanks for the correction :wink:


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## Pete Robinson (3 Jun 2009)

Hi Karl,

I have found Freud blades to be the most cost effective and absolutely excellent in all situations although from your photo you seem to have an awful lot of teeth on it for a table saw, I only ever use 40 teeth max on a 10 inch blade on my table saw and 60 teeth on my radial.

cheers

Pete


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## Karl (3 Jun 2009)

Pete - the blade is a 40 tooth combination blade. I'm not saying that all Freud blades are rubbish, just that this one isn't as good as the one supplied with my saw.

JonnyD - I'll have a think about the central panel. I don't want there to be any movement, and a shadow line would leave a nasty gap for debris and spills to fall into - we have 4 young kids so the latter is inevitable.

Cheers

Karl


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## jhwbigley (3 Jun 2009)

Pete Robinson":1u48ff7r said:


> I only ever use 40 teeth max on a 10 inch blade on my table saw and 60 teeth on my radial.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Pete




I use a 24, 40 and 60 tooth blades on the table saw, and a 80 tooth blade on the radial arm saw.

John-Henry


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