# How do these cuts not cause kick back?



## transatlantic (5 Dec 2021)

First off, I'm not going to attempt this cut. I wouldn't dream of it. Quite happy to use a jig saw.

...but

I want to understand how the piece is not simply flung back? I appreciate that most kick back is caused by the work piece being trapped between the fence and the blade, causing the piece to ride up the blade and to be flung back.

In this case the piece is not trapped, but given the blade is rotating towards the operator, I would expect a similar kind of thing?


The cut can be seen @1:32, but the link should be to that time also.


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## Peter Sefton (5 Dec 2021)

It could very easily be thrown back, just hasn't happened yet.


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## adidat (5 Dec 2021)

done it before for hogging out stopped rebates, it feels sketchy so I try to avoid doing it. take your time and correct sharp blade helps.

adidat


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## Jacob (5 Dec 2021)

He's holding the frame tight up against the fence. If he let go it'd get snatched.


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## Daniel2 (5 Dec 2021)

Still looks like a decidedly dodgy practice, to me.


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## Cabinetman (5 Dec 2021)

Couldn’t watch any more, what a totally incompetent idi.ot, and he has the ignorance to try to show others!! It’s no wonder that North Americans have such a high level of amputations from table saws.
This is the sort of thing that YouTube should remove.


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## Sporky McGuffin (5 Dec 2021)

Blimey. At 4:30 his face gets awfully close to an unguarded spinning blade of death.


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## Alpha-Dave (5 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Blimey. At 4:30 his face gets awfully close to an unguarded spinning blade of death.



Yeah; he says “I could have done this with a knife, but I chose to use the tabke saw because I like to do as much with it as possible”. Seems crazy to me not to just score a line; it would have been quicker than glueing an extra piece if wood on, then removing it again!


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## baldkev (5 Dec 2021)

"Whenever i can, i really like to do everything on the tablesaw"

Does this guy have any cookery vids? I bet dicing carrots is fun..... on the tablesaw 

To be fair, its like shaving with a straight, it wakes you up in the morning


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## baldkev (5 Dec 2021)

Daddy, how are babies made?
Well son, first you gotta getyurself a tablesaw........


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## Inspector (5 Dec 2021)

For lack of a better term I'll call that a drop cut. At some point it will get away from him and he might get hurt if one of his other practices doesn't get him first. To make it safer (not to be confused with totally safe) you clamp a stop to the fence such that when you start the drop cut the corner closest to you is held and pivoted from the fence and table. You make the cut to another stop on the other side of the blade. Then you switch off the saw with your knee and wait until the blade stops. Then pick up the piece and make the next drop cut. It is work that requires a complete understanding of what can happen at any moment from start to finish and being mindful of where ones soft bits can end up and push sticks should be used where possible. It also isn't a good practice on dinky job site saws.

Pete


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## Sgian Dubh (5 Dec 2021)

transatlantic said:


> I want to understand how the piece is not simply flung back?


As Peter said, it just hasn't happened ... yet. 

That tool me back to my time living in the US (Houston actually) and working professionally in their woodworking shops. Watching that little clip reminded me of some of the crazy and risky things some Americans seem to be addicted to do on their table saws. Slainte.


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## blackteaonesugar (5 Dec 2021)

There are so many North American YouTubers that do this sort of stuff ALL of the time. They should hold some responsibility over what they advocate but of course don't.

It's not just North Americans to be fair.
Every time I see Laura Kampf ripping some timber without crown guards or riving knives and the whole lot getting flung back into her face and covering her in dust I just roll my eyes and think of Charles Darwin


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## sawdustandwax (5 Dec 2021)

Last week my table saw reminded me just how powerful and vicious it can be. I was distracted for moment by someone whilst finishing a cut. Next thing the push-stick was ripped out of my hand and punched me square in the chest with the force of a decent punch. Needless to say I was not happy. Fortunately the blade wasn't raised very high otherwise it would have been neck or head high. There was absolutely no chance of getting out the way, it happened too fast. Now if someone described what he was doing, 'now take a piece of wood and push down onto that spinning blade, oh and make sure you keep it tight against the fence', would you? It looks easy in the video and will convince some to copy it. A lot of these type of videos are just about creating content, clicks and ad revenue. In fact there's a video idea in there for someone, throw some pieces of wood at a running table saw and film how far they get thrown back down the workshop, would make for a good couple of minutes of entertainment.


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## baldkev (5 Dec 2021)

Im on it 
P.s, can i use your tablesaw?


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## Orraloon (5 Dec 2021)

It's his constitutional right to be an edgit with power tools. Try and stop that would have him out marching with an upside down flag and his AR15.
Regards
John


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## Terrytpot (6 Dec 2021)

I’ve viewed a fair chunk of his content and can say his practices are the scariest I see…whilst he may feel at ease getting his fingers within millimetres of an unguarded spinning blade , and has so far gotten away with it, it still makes me cringe every time he does it.


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## TRITON (6 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> Does this guy have any cookery vids? I bet dicing carrots is fun..... on the tablesaw


Cant find the vid but there used to be one of somebody peeling the shell off a coconut using a tablesaw.


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## Insanity (6 Dec 2021)

He's a very experienced woodworker. However it's pretty dangerous to show these type of cuts to a random youtuber, who will probably copy him and it will go badly wrong!


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## hennebury (6 Dec 2021)

Living is dangerous! driving to work is more dangerous than anything you can do in a workshop! Racing motorcycles at the Ilse on Mann is not for the faint of heart. We choose our poison, that's what you do when your an adult. You make your choice and you take responsibility for that. If I watch the motor cycle racing at the Ilse of Mann and go try to copy that and killed its my own stupid fault. So if I watch a woodworking video and go copy what they guy does and cut my hand off.... it's my own stupid fault! its called being a grown-up! If you are not comfortable doing what he does don't do it! The "fact" think about that for a minute, is that the saw will not grab the wood out of your hand! You are going to have to screw up to get hurt, and if you don't have the focus, concentration, knowledge and commitment. don't do dangerous stuff, because you will get hurt. Don't ride motorcycles at the Ilse of Mann, don't go skiing down mountains, and don't do drop cuts on your table saw, or shaper, because its not for you. The only people that are not at risk of getting injured or killed are already dead. Different people are comfortable with different levels of danger, doesn't make them idiots. Personally I am more comfortable in my own shop with my fingers 1/8" from a spinning 18" uncovered sawblade cranked up with 5 1/2" of blade above the table than I am riding a bicycle on the main road. Danger is everywhere, I am okay dealing with the danger in my shop and willing to accept certain levels of calculated risk that I am comfortable with, you each will have your own level. Perspective is everything!

If you are a child, your parents are responsible for you.
If you are an adult then you are responsible for what you do.

There are a million ways to die. If you want to copy people, you probably will find one.


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## Keith 66 (6 Dec 2021)

There is a difference between doing sketchy stuff in the privacy of your own workshop & posting educational videos of yourself showing newbies how to do it!
If i choose to do what is regarded as dangerous stuff its my look out, my own tablesaw has no riving knife or crown guard fitted, i know its wrong but never got round to fixing it. But no way would i attempt cuts like that guy was doing, I value my fingers too much.
Years ago aged 9 i watched my dad have an accident with a tablesaw, he was cutting a short block of wood & using a push stick, it kicked back violently & the wooden block hit him straight on the chin & nigh on knocked him out, blood everywhere. Best circular saw H&S demo i ever saw!
A year or to ago I saw Louis Sauzeddes Tips from a shipwright channel, guy really knows his stuff but the day i saw him using an angry grinder with an 8" circular saw blade bolted on it to cut planks from the bottom of an old boat was the day i stopped watching him. Doing stuff that is frankly bad practice or downright dangerous in educational videos encourages people to follow suit. The probability is they will not have the same level of skill (or luck) & are liable to get bitten by the saw. By teaching them the wrong way you must bear some responsibility.


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## transatlantic (6 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Living is dangerous! driving to work is more dangerous than anything you can do in a workshop! Racing motorcycles at the Ilse on Mann is not for the faint of heart. We choose our poison, that's what you do when your an adult. You make your choice and you take responsibility for that. If I watch the motor cycle racing at the Ilse of Mann and go try to copy that and killed its my own stupid fault. So if I watch a woodworking video and go copy what they guy does and cut my hand off.... it's my own stupid fault! its called being a grown-up! If you are not comfortable doing what he does don't do it! The "fact" think about that for a minute, is that the saw will not grab the wood out of your hand! You are going to have to screw up to get hurt, and if you don't have the focus, concentration, knowledge and commitment. don't do dangerous stuff, because you will get hurt. Don't ride motorcycles at the Ilse of Mann, don't go skiing down mountains, and don't do drop cuts on your table saw, or shaper, because its not for you. The only people that are not at risk of getting injured or killed are already dead. Different people are comfortable with different levels of danger, doesn't make them idiots. Personally I am more comfortable in my own shop with my fingers 1/8" from a spinning 18" uncovered sawblade cranked up with 5 1/2" of blade above the table than I am riding a bicycle on the main road. Danger is everywhere, I am okay dealing with the danger in my shop and willing to accept certain levels of calculated risk that I am comfortable with, you each will have your own level. Perspective is everything!
> 
> If you are a child, your parents are responsible for you.
> If you are an adult then you are responsible for what you do.
> ...




I think you're comparing apples to oranges there. His video is educational content. How many new woodworkers do you think might have seen his video and tried to copy what he was doing? ... without even knowing the risks?

The experienced woodworker would know its a dodgy cut. The inexperienced might just think its another technique they need to learn to be an accomplished woodworker.

I really enjoy his videos, but I know for a fact he has zero respect for his subscribers health and safety. If he did, he'd be showing safe techniques that achieve similar results.


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## johnny (6 Dec 2021)

I am reminded of a Youtube video I saw last year .
A guy in the States was running a very successful series of woodworking videos on the tube and had a very well set up workshop.

Then one day his video started with a picture of him standing in his workshop facing the camera with a bandage around his upper arm .
His entire lower arm below the elbow was missing !.....

It was a shocking image that will stay with me forever..........From memory I believe it was a bandsaw that had been left running and a moments distraction .


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## Sandyn (6 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Living is dangerous! driving to work is more dangerous than anything you can do in a workshop! Racing motorcycles at the Ilse on Mann is not for the faint of heart. We choose our poison, that's what you do when your an adult. You make your choice and you take responsibility for that. If I watch the motor cycle racing at the Ilse of Mann and go try to copy that and killed its my own stupid fault.


I couldn't agree more.

I have a solution which would drastically cut accidents. Stop selling all these very dangerous tools. Table saws are dangerous. planers are dangerous, bandsaws are dangerous, routers are dangerous, lathes are dangerous. You can buy any of these tools take them home and start using them without any training. You could loose limbs or fingers at the blink of an eye assuming it hasn't been removed by that flying bit of wood.


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## jcassidy (6 Dec 2021)

Sandyn said:


> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> I have a solution which would drastically cut accidents. Stop selling all these very dangerous tools. Table saws are dangerous. planers are dangerous, bandsaws are dangerous, routers are dangerous, lathes are dangerous. You can buy any of these tools take them home and start using them without any training. You could loose limbs or fingers at the blink of an eye assuming it hasn't been removed by that flying bit of wood.



That's not the point that being made and you are both being facetious.

The point is, if you are going to produce YouTube content for a general audience, you should pitch your productions appropriately. 

But don't worry, some fool is going to follow the suggestions and lose half their face and sue for a bucketful of money, and then we'll see guards, riving knives, safety goggles and disclaimers galore. The US tends to rely on litigation to drive H&S concerns.


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## Droogs (6 Dec 2021)

If you are running a business that uses youtube to endorse the practices you use as an encouragement for people to use you as a source of educational information and to promote their sending of money to you, then you have a legal responsibility to ensure safe practice. His aren't and I have reported his video for dangerous practices to youtube and reported youtube to HSE as the publisher of the material in the UK, regardless of their claims otherwise


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## BucksDad (6 Dec 2021)

johnny said:


> I am reminded of a Youtube video I saw last year .
> A guy in the States was running a very successful series of woodworking videos on the tube and had a very well set up workshop.
> 
> Then one day his video started with a picture of him standing in his workshop facing the camera with a bandage around his upper arm .
> ...



Can you remember the person / link to the video?


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## hennebury (6 Dec 2021)

If I post a video on YouTube of the way that I work, its because that's the way that i work. I am not telling you to work that way. I have every right to show how I work. You apparently want to censor that, which is what you are talking about. You want to play parent to all the grown-ups, you think that you know better and should control what they are allowed to watch. Starting to sound like dictators running a police state. What level of danger will you allow? who will decide? 
From what I have seen and heard most of the accidents in the workshop are caused by people using push sticks, when they would have had better control holding the wood, or people not understanding what they are doing, or not paying attention. The very title of this thread shows a lack of understanding of the principles involved in kickback. Holding the work securely and doing drop-cuts wont cause kick-back, as the guy in the video proved. Being nervous and not having firm control of the wood, letting the wood come back towards you can start a kick-back, so if you don't understand that and don't have the confidence to firmly hold the wood.... don't attempt it. You can do the operation safer, by putting a stop block of the fence, for and aft of the blade. Also by winding the blade up into the wood, as long as the wood is against the stops and held firmly. Lots of ways of doing it, different levels of danger. 

You can do dangerous operations with a reasonable amount of safety, within certain limits, that is about understanding the danger, understanding your knowledge, experience, an being confident in your ability to focus and control what you are doing, that's a personnel judgement. You know the dangers, you understand what can happen and why, you take precautions that you are comfortable with, like having your hands of the correct side of the blade, in case things go wrong.
I have seen many so called safety conscious people, doing stuff in a way that I wouldn't, they scare the rubbish out of me. I have my way of working and that's a very personal choice. My safety is up to me, I will not let anyone dictate how I can work. If I make a mistake and get hurt it will be no ones fault but mine, and I am okay with that.

In terms of danger, Just about everything on youtube shows something dangerous, where would you start, golf is dangerous, so jumping off mountains in a wingsuit, every sport that you could think of is dangerous...well except soccer. MMA, downhill skiiing, skateboarding, figure skating, powerlifting, gymnastics, auto racing, and on and on ..... Living is being in the state of danger! that's life , and there is only one way out.

What you are telling me is that, I can work whatever way that I want, but if i do a public video, I cant show the way that I work and must pretend that I work differently, to protect the innocent public. So In your opinion every video on the internet should be made for absolute beginners? Made for the people with no knowledge, experience or the common sense to know that they have none, and they can blindly copy what's on the video without any repercussions, because you will have removed all potential danger.

You want to remove everything on Youtube that shows something that has an element of danger? give me a break.
How about instead of you trying to be everyone's dad, we let people be grown-ups and take responsibility for what they do.
How about having a society where people get to take personal responsibility seriously, instead of state run control over everything you do.

I grew up in a different age I guess.

Anyway... got to fly, I just ordered a new wingsuit on amazon, should be here soon, can't wait to try it out, wish me luck on my maiden flight.


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## baldkev (6 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Anyway... got to fly, I just ordered a new wingsuit on amazon, should be here soon, can't wait to try it out, wish me luck on my maiden flight.




Dont forget your gopro


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## Ttrees (6 Dec 2021)

I agree that everyone should try and demonstrate how to do things as safe as they can, otherwise 
why show something at all if it's not a good method.

A banner somewhere might be what could happen eventually, although imagine how ridiculous that could go if it were even the case, youtubers or their supporters reporting on other youtubers!

Seems an easy solution for googletube to do though.
I imagine the algorithm could sort out who gets paid and who doesn't, much like it does already
but a redlist of constantly dangerous practices could be another tool in which the machine would likely use for profit, somehow I guess?

Seem they make money from that guy
I think it's the only channel I've ever hit the "don't recommend channel" button on.
He clearly plans these things from the outset to make a controversial video, as is evident 
from the multiple useless projects instead of making good workshop aids,
which I'd reckon was where he started from.
I'd guess there are plenty folks getting into heated arguments and returning again for more on that video right now, lol!

I would post a comment on some other tablesaw videos, where 99% of folk have good intentions,
though some have seemingly no knowledge about HSE this side of the pond, so if only to state a HSE pushstick length to those who promote the shoe,
but I'd never give that channel the airtime.


There are some who are actually in danger of hurting themselves.
I've seen one video where someone has mentioned they learned everything from him and thankful that they can *work safely *on their tablesaw now
Not sure if that fella has watched other publications since then, but I sincerely hope he has.

All the best 
Tom


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## Daniel2 (6 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> If I post a video on YouTube of the way that I work, its because that's the way that i work. I am not telling you to work that way. I have every right to show how I work. You apparently want to censor that, which is what you are talking about. You want to play parent to all the grown-ups, you think that you know better and should control what they are allowed to watch. Starting to sound like dictators running a police state. What level of danger will you allow? who will decide?
> From what I have seen and heard most of the accidents in the workshop are caused by people using push sticks, when they would have had better control holding the wood, or people not understanding what they are doing, or not paying attention. The very title of this thread shows a lack of understanding of the principles involved in kickback. Holding the work securely and doing drop-cuts wont cause kick-back, as the guy in the video proved. Being nervous and not having firm control of the wood, letting the wood come back towards you can start a kick-back, so if you don't understand that and don't have the confidence to firmly hold the wood.... don't attempt it. You can do the operation safer, by putting a stop block of the fence, for and aft of the blade. Also by winding the blade up into the wood, as long as the wood is against the stops and held firmly. Lots of ways of doing it, different levels of danger.
> 
> You can do dangerous operations with a reasonable amount of safety, within certain limits, that is about understanding the danger, understanding your knowledge, experience, an being confident in your ability to focus and control what you are doing, that's a personnel judgement. You know the dangers, you understand what can happen and why, you take precautions that you are comfortable with, like having your hands of the correct side of the blade, in case things go wrong.
> ...



Deary me.
There is so much you simply don't understand.
It is people like you that make You Tube so dangerous.


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## Bojam (6 Dec 2021)

I am relatively new to woodworking and have had no formal training. In fact I have relied heavily upon online resources to learn to use the equipment I have at my disposal. As a newbie though, it is not always easy to differentiate between reliable sources of good practice and people doing stupid stuff. I am super cautious, read manuals carefully, seek out info and advice, even pay for online tuition where I think it's necessary (e.g. @Peter Sefton's excellent bandsaw series). I cross check and verify until I'm happy that I know what I intend to do is sensible. Ultimately I take my time and don't do anything I'm not sure about. Does that mean that I can't or won't have an accident. No. But it does mean that I am taking personal responsibility for my working practices and personal safety. If stuff goes wrong and I have an accident then I would only hold myself responsible.

I guess we can all agree that Natsuki Ishitani is an incredibly gifted craftsman. His Youtube videos show him making all manner of beautiful furniture and other wooden objects. He doesn't attempt to educate in a direct sense. There is no guidance offered, no tips or tricks, indeed no voiceover at all. Just him making stuff in his own workshop alone. Nevertheless, each video starts with the following disclaimer:





I think that this might offer some kind of compromise position to the polarised discussion above. Yes we all have to assume personal responsibility for our actions in our own workshops. And, yes, if someone sets out to explicitly educate people through Youtube or any other media then they have an obligation to demonstrate and promote safe working practices and certainly not showcase unnecessarily dangerous practices.

But there are some (many?) woodworking channels on Youtube where the aim is not primarily to educate - like the Ishitani Furniture channel. In such cases I would argue that there is a minimum obligation to have a clear disclaimer, like that above, noting that this content is not designed to be educational and that people should make themselves aware of good practice (by e.g. seeking out necessary safety information, guidance or training from legitimate sources). 

I love watching Ishitani's content. The stuff he makes is amazing and watching him work is inspiring. I don't want to see his content censored because he doesn't always follow HSE protocols. But I do acknowledge that the way he works is not (necessarily) the way I should work and he makes this point VERY CLEARLY at the outset of every video.


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## Daniel2 (6 Dec 2021)

Bojam said:


> I am relatively new to woodworking and have had no formal training. In fact I have largely relied heavily upon online resources to learn to use the equipment I have at my disposal. As a newbie though, it is not always easy to differentiate between reliable sources of good practice and people doing stupid stuff. I am super cautious, read manuals carefully, seek out info and advice, even pay for online tuition where I think it's necessary (e.g. @Peter Sefton's excellent bandsaw series). I cross check and verify until I'm happy that I know what I intend to do is sensible. Ultimately I take my time and don't do anything I'm not sure about. Does that mean that I can't or won't have an accident. No. But it does mean that I am taking personal responsibility for my working practices and personal safety. If stuff goes wrong and I have an accident then I would only hold myself responsible.
> 
> I guess we can all agree that Natsuki Ishitani is an incredibly gifted craftsman. His Youtube videos show him making all manner of beautiful furniture and other wooden objects. He doesn't attempt to educate in a direct sense. There is no guidance offered, no tips or tricks, indeed no voiceover at all. Just him making stuff in his own workshop alone. Nevertheless, each video starts with the following disclaimer:
> 
> ...



You are overlooking the point that many people do perceive these videos as educational.
They digest the content as a way of how things need to be done.
Many of these you tube warriors are, very simply, accidents waiting to happen.


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## Bojam (6 Dec 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> You are overlooking the point that many people do perceive these videos as educational.
> They digest the content as a way of how things need to be done.
> Many of these you tube warriors are, very simply, accidents waiting to happen.



I'm not overlooking that point. I believe that all woodworking content - designed to be educational or simply illustrative - should have a mandatory disclaimer clearly stating that woodworking is inherently dangerous and not to copy the ways of working shown without referring to safety manuals and other sources of advice/guidance/training. 

In cases where people are posting explicitly "educational" content - i.e. where they are actively providing guidance, tips, etc. on working practice - then the bar should be set higher. I agree that as it stands, anyone can post anything and give the impression of good practice to the unaware.


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## Bojam (6 Dec 2021)

To pursue the Alex Honnold analogy, just because there are publicly available videos of some dude free soloing an enormous wall surely doesn't constitute a recommendation that everyone / all climbers should just go right ahead and copy his example. At a minimum they would need to seek advice/guidance/training before even considering whether such a plan was sensible. If they went ahead without the necessary knowledge and skill and had an accident then would Alex Honnold be to blame?

I'm pretty sure that we've all seen TV shows that have disclaimers saying "don't try this at home". If someone then decides to try it at home and has an accident, where does the culpability lie?

We need disclaimers on all dangerous content (which in woodworking terms is pretty much everything) saying refer to the guidelines, read the manuals, get training, seek advice, etc. And also, take personal responsibility for your actions. If your not sure or not confident then don't do it.


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## jcassidy (6 Dec 2021)

As i said earlier, a disclaimer of the sort mentioned should be a minimum. 

But that might /probably will impact the business model of many of these people, which is to sell ads to folks looking for help, advice and guidance. 

You can't have a disclaimer saying "Folks, don't do this at home!!!" if you're trying to sell the idea that watching-this-video-will-explain-everything"


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## Daniel2 (6 Dec 2021)

Bojam said:


> To pursue the Alex Honnold analogy, just because there are publicly available videos of some dude free soloing an enormous wall surely doesn't constitute a recommendation that everyone / all climbers should just go right ahead and copy his example. At a minimum they would need to seek advice/guidance/training before even considering whether such a plan was sensible. If they went ahead without the necessary knowledge and skill and had an accident then would Alex Honnold be to blame?
> 
> I'm pretty sure that we've all seen TV shows that have disclaimers saying "don't try this at home". If someone then decides to try it at home and has an accident, where does the culpability lie?
> 
> We need disclaimers on all dangerous content (which in woodworking terms is pretty much everything) saying refer to the guidelines, read the manuals, get training, seek advice, etc. And also, take personal responsibility for your actions. If your not sure or not confident then don't do it.



Try and get away from the blaming someone else culture for a moment....!!
What we are really talking about is not giving people the wrong information,
whereby they might, quite innocently, injure themselves.


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## Bojam (6 Dec 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Try and get away from the blaming someone else culture for a moment....!!
> What we are really talking about is not giving people the wrong information,
> whereby they might, quite innocently, injure themselves.



Actually I'm talking about the NOT blaming someone else culture we need to instill. Disclaimers on everything: woodworking is dangerous. And explicitly educational content needs to be geared towards providing good guidance on safe working practices (how to regulate Youtube content is the thorny issue). Underlying the whole discussion for me though is the need to assume personal responsibility for how we work / do our hobbies. Don't just rely on a single youtube clip as a point of reference on how to use a dangerous tool or do a potentially dangerous operation. In the workplace the employer has an obligation to ensure that their employees know how to use dangerous equipment safely to do their job and that they follow the protocols. At home, in our private workshops, we have an obligation to protect ourselves by reading the manuals and seeking proper guidance from legitimate sources.


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## Daniel2 (6 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Snip....
> From what I have seen and heard most of the accidents in the workshop are caused by people using push sticks, when they would have had better control holding the wood,



I'd love some of whatever you're smoking.


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## TRITON (6 Dec 2021)

Insanity said:


> He's a very experienced woodworker. However it's pretty dangerous to show these type of cuts to a random youtuber, who will probably copy him and it will go badly wrong!


I'm a very experienced woodworker, many here are. But there is good practice and there is bad practice, and that vid shows bad practice. So in truth it doesn't matter how experienced you are, it only means you've become complacent. He is no longer in respect of the machine.

When the accident comes, and it will, he can only hope its the type where he can snatch his hands backward quickly and end up uninjured.

Plus in the vid we see sleeves up and also sleeves down. I would never ever ever use a machine with my sleeves below the elbows.



hennebury said:


> and don't do drop cuts on your table saw, or shaper, because its not for you.


Clearly you're untrained. Any drop cutting requires back and forward end stops and i see none. He's doing it entirely freehand, so nobody is ever trained that way, and as you see it as an ok practice, I'd say you also havent a clue what you're on about.


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## doctor Bob (6 Dec 2021)

I'm a bit on the side of "couldn't give a toss" to be honest.
You tube has been around for years and full of dodgy stuff, everyone knows it's full of dodgy stuff, whether it's mechanics, woodworking, welding, pyrography, wing suit flying etc. I do think people have to have some ownership of their actions.

Last weekend I travelled 200 miles, to view a classic car, my expert man drove 300 miles with a trailer to take it away, the car was supposedly the business, unfortunately on arrival my expert looked at it for 2 minutes and summed it up as "been f**ked up by a you tube warrier, so that was a waste of £400. I hate you tube wan***s.


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## Daniel2 (6 Dec 2021)

I feel your pain @doctor Bob , but we shouldn't paint everyone
with the same brush.
Look at our very own @petermillard for example.


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## Noel (6 Dec 2021)

I like Heisz, many interesting videos.
Much easier/safer to clamp the workpiece and bring the blade up.


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## doctor Bob (6 Dec 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I feel your pain @doctor Bob , but we shouldn't paint everyone
> with the same brush.
> Look at our very own @petermillard for example.



Yes I agree, sorry I should have been clearer and meant you have to sort the wheat from the chaff, etc etc.


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## Sgian Dubh (6 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Clearly you're untrained ... I'd say you also havent a clue what you're on about.


Actually, I suspect you're incorrect with at least one of those assertions, possibly both. I say that because I've read many a post by hennebury elsewhere on other woodworking forums, and seen examples of his work going back thirty or more years. My interpretation of the evidence I've seen is that he has sophisticated woodworking knowledge covering both hand work and machine woodworking.

I somewhat disagree with the thrust of the posts he's made in this thread concerning the technique demonstrated and the need for viewers of that video to self-assess the risk along with their ability to emulate the technique without coming to harm - I somewhat disagree because I suspect quite a number of those viewers possibly don't have the experience to make a good judgement. I say the last sentence in light of my experience of working in the USA and witnessing more than one professional woodworker undertaking essentially the same procedure, i.e., a professional making the judgement on safety of a specific technique. At least one of those woodworkers made the wrong safety assessment and experienced a quite savage kickback resulting in a lump of wood hitting his upper body and fingers/hand flesh contacting the sawblade followed by a trip to the emergency room; fortunately the injuries were limited essentially to upper body bruising and lacerations to hand flesh and digits requiring quite a number of stitches. So, if a pro can get it so spectacularly wrong, what hope is there for the relatively inexperienced amateur? As I stated in my first post in this thread I found Americans, when I lived and worked there, remarkably cavalier in their use of table saws. Quite a lot of what they got up to on the machine I found gobsmackingly buttock clenching. But I think many of them found me comparatively timid and wimpy with my 'girly' British table saw work habits.

Personally, if video making of woodworking techniques was my thing I would never demonstrate such a practice as dropping on as seen in that video. It probably does give the inexperienced or bull-headed woodworker a misplaced confidence in the efficacy of such a technique. As to whether or not videos of that nature with what I personally consider to be unsafe practices illustrated should come with strongly worded health warnings I find hard to decide one way or another. There's a risk of being too nannyish, I suppose. There's also the fact that all these online information sources recognise no national boundaries or jurisdictions. Whilst we in the UK, bound by our national legislation and regulations, plus our typical machine woodworking set-ups and work habits, might abhor numerous techniques shown via online sources, in other jurisdictions the technique may well be considered uncontroversial, or even if considered somewhat dodgy, then it's up to the viewer to decide if it's okay for them to emulate, or not. Slainte.


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## Terry - Somerset (6 Dec 2021)

Disclaimers and warnings are a cop out.

I may watch with fascination/interest motor cycle racing, rock climbing, mountain biking, wrestling brown bears, etc etc. They all have the capacity to kill or seriously injure very quickly. I have little or no desire to try any of them.

It takes a brain little larger than the size of a pea to realise that fast rotating cutting tools can maim or worse in microseconds. Videos are produced for education, entertainment or egotistical reasons, but it is up to the viewer to use some caution before trying to copy the performance.


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## Cabinetman (6 Dec 2021)

I have been having a think about this thorny problem.
I agree about censorship with @hennebury . Hate it.
Also I do believe people should accept the consequences of their actions, and do research before doing dangerous things.
So what’s to be done, particularly on here.
It’s probably up to us to try to educate and keep banging the drum on safe ways of working?
Keep pointing out/ showing bad examples? As this thread has done?
I tried in a thread on using push sticks, some people said I was foolishly brave to even attempt it!
Wouldn’t stop me doing it again though. Ian


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## Spectric (6 Dec 2021)

As Bob has said you tube delivers anything and everything so people take it as gospel, I have seen many examples of electrical work people have attempted using you tube as the tutor and once it works they think job done, but no testing, wrong materials and dangerous.

As for that table saw clip, if you decide to copy his antics then you have to accept the risk, but is he just looking for his moment of fame or getting likes.

When I want to sand on the flat, I don't need to go to those measures to fix some abrasive paper down, using a roll of abrasive I just clamp down the ends with some wood and clamp, no danger, quick and gets the job done so take you tube with a pinch of salt.


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## TheTiddles (6 Dec 2021)

What a lot of angry pixies this has brought out.

Yes, it’s dangerous. One day he’ll cut something off, then get sponsored by Sawstop and spend his time promoting that as the solution to his poor technique. Brought to you by the same country that thinks armoured backpacks and curved hallways are the solution to their kids being murdered.

You can’t teach the uneducable.


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## keithy1959 (6 Dec 2021)

There is almost certainly a disclaimer buried in YouTube's Terms and Conditions that idemnifies itself and its channel operators with all the stuff mentioned above. In fairness to John Heitz, he normally makes it clear thats how he chooses to do it, and accepts it might be dangerous. He does not instruct - he demonstrates how he did it.
If you want to find someone to hate about this stuff, how about the Lidls of this world who make dangerous tools available to anybody at too cheap a price, with the connected issues with badly made tools - but that's another can of worms !!


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## TRITON (6 Dec 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Actually, I suspect you're incorrect with at least one of those assertions, possibly both. I say that because I've read many a post by hennebury elsewhere on other woodworking forums, and seen examples of his work going back thirty or more years. My interpretation of the evidence I've seen is that he has sophisticated woodworking knowledge covering both hand work and machine woodworking.
> 
> I somewhat disagree with the thrust of the posts he's made in this thread concerning the technique demonstrated and the need for viewers of that video to self-assess the risk along with their ability to emulate the technique without coming to harm - I somewhat disagree because I suspect quite a number of those viewers possibly don't have the experience to make a good judgement. I say the last sentence in light of my experience of working in the USA and witnessing more than one professional woodworker undertaking essentially the same procedure, i.e., a professional making the judgement on safety of a specific technique. At least one of those woodworkers made the wrong safety assessment and experienced a quite savage kickback resulting in a lump of wood hitting his upper body and fingers/hand flesh contacting the sawblade followed by a trip to the emergency room; fortunately the injuries were limited essentially to upper body bruising and lacerations to hand flesh and digits requiring quite a number of stitches. So, if a pro can get it so spectacularly wrong, what hope is there for the relatively inexperienced amateur? As I stated in my first post in this thread I found Americans, when I lived and worked there, remarkably cavalier in their use of table saws. Quite a lot of what they got up to on the machine I found gobsmackingly buttock clenching. But I think many of them found me comparatively timid and wimpy with my 'girly' British table saw work habits.
> 
> Personally, if video making of woodworking techniques was my thing I would never demonstrate such a practice as dropping on as seen in that video. It probably does give the inexperienced or bull-headed woodworker a misplaced confidence in the efficacy of such a technique. As to whether or not videos of that nature with what I personally consider to be unsafe practices illustrated should come with strongly worded health warnings I find hard to decide one way or another. There's a risk of being too nannyish, I suppose. There's also the fact that all these online information sources recognise no national boundaries or jurisdictions. Whilst we in the UK, bound by our national legislation and regulations, plus our typical machine woodworking set-ups and work habits, might abhor numerous techniques shown via online sources, in other jurisdictions the technique may well be considered uncontroversial, or even if considered somewhat dodgy, then it's up to the viewer to decide if it's okay for them to emulate, or not. Slainte.


Oh what a gigantic [post.
Bottom line is nobody ever in the world was ever taught to lay on a cut without using a back and forward stop.


TheTiddles said:


> then get sponsored by Sawstop and spend his time promoting that as the solution to his poor technique








The above picture is a pictorial representation of the proverb of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted


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## BucksDad (6 Dec 2021)

I know some have referenced USA but just to point out John Heisz is actually Canadian 

If you want to understand his persona in general and his own opinion on people's comments about the safety of his methods, then I recommend watching a few videos from his second channel "I Build It Scrap Bin"

The sad thing for me is that he just recently crossed 1m subscribers - one of the few woodworking channels to do so I think and he's constantly unhappy with YouTube, it's algorithm and the lack of views his latest videos get relative to subscriber count. A reminder that even successful channels on YouTube are still completely subservient to YT itself


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## Spectric (6 Dec 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> You can’t teach the uneducable.


So true, you have to feel sorry for teachers that have housebricks in their class and yet are expected to meet ofsted requirements, when will they wake up and realise you can not educate a housebrick, they require a different journey, maybe youtube influencers !


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## TheTiddles (6 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> So true, you have to feel sorry for teachers that have housebricks in their class and yet are expected to meet ofsted requirements, when will they wake up and realise you can not educate a housebrick, they require a different journey, maybe youtube influencers !



Can’t say I’ve ever met young people like that, tends to be the old ones


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## petermillard (7 Dec 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I feel your pain @doctor Bob , but we shouldn't paint everyone
> with the same brush.
> Look at our very own @petermillard for example.


I tend to stay out of these kind of threads because honestly I’m with @doctor Bob on this one - really couldn’t give much of a toss!  What I do find baffling - bizarre, really - is the desire to hold individuals in other countries to the commercial safety standards of this one, whilst giving large TV companies and media corporations a free pass; someone further up the thread said they’d reported the YouTube video to HSE - I wonder if they did the same when Misty was flouncing around the ‘Britain’s Best Woodworker’ workshop/studio trailing scarves and sleeves in their wake, or when the chainsaws were out, or the turning?? As for those teddy bear ladies on repair shop, there’s not a single pair of safety specs between them, the horror!  I think I’ll write to my MP.

And before you sputter ‘..but that’s not the same thing…!’ well, that’s exactly the problem isn’t it; where do you draw that line?? Personally I think individuals should be responsible for their own actions - both those making YouTube videos and those watching them. If you tried to second-guess what some numpty might do with a set of spanners, you’d never get anything made.

You do you, and I’ll do me.


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## Jester129 (7 Dec 2021)

I was in America in '88 looking at some machinery that my company were buying to be used here. When I asked about the guarding, the American supervisor said, "If they're so stupid to put their hand in there, then they can!". It's clearly their mentality, as it is ours to put guards everywhere to protect the stupid Brits from themselves. That's our HSE working.
I can only agree that there should be a disclaimer, and realise that common sense isn't common at all! ATB


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## Sgian Dubh (7 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Bottom line is nobody ever in the world was ever taught to lay on a cut without using a back and forward stop.


I watched a video of someone demonstrating dropping on to a spinning sawblade and lifting off with neither a back or forward stop, so in that case those 'always present' stops were absent. Demonstrating is one element of teaching, and those that watch to learn often try to replicate the actions of the demonstrator. In my case demonstrating to learners has always been in my teaching arsenal. Slainte.


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## Sporky McGuffin (7 Dec 2021)

Jester129 said:


> realise that common sense isn't common at all! ATB



"Common sense" is a dangerous mix of hindsight and confirmation bias.


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## the great waldo (7 Dec 2021)

Watching him turn those ply discs on the router put the wind up me. I`ve seen how one of those big cutters can grab and throw wood (in my case an electric guitar body grabbed the end grain and threw the body into just below the trouser belt line (you all know where) luckily it wasn't me) what he's doing is all basically risky. I still can count to 10 with my hands and intend to keep doing so, but that said he has some interesting ideas,
Cheers
Andrew


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## Droogs (7 Dec 2021)

It is the fact that his channel is run as a business and is available here, regardless of method. The publisher has a legal duty regarding safety as businesses and this is not being met.

@petermillard It was me that reported him (to youtube) and regarding the said tv show, I have not watched it other than 10 mins or so from the first one. If I had and saw breaches of HSE then yes I would report them for the very same reasons I reported this channel.

I actually enjoy some of his videos and ideas but his work practices are dangerous, especially for those less aware of the dangers.


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## TRITON (7 Dec 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I watched a video of someone demonstrating dropping on to a spinning sawblade and lifting off with neither a back or forward stop, so in that case those 'always present' stops were absent. Demonstrating is one element of teaching, and those that watch to learn often try to replicate the actions of the demonstrator. In my case demonstrating to learners has always been in my teaching arsenal. Slainte.


I'd question as to in what capacity that 'demonstration' was being made.
But either way can we examine the mechanics of laying on.

The action of the blade is driving forward, in that anything in contact is being pushed backward. You agree ?
So from a safety point of view, it is hand pressure only keeping the movement from flying back, in a kickback scenario
That action alone would have the HSE sweating. There is no way on gods earth they would allow that action to take place in a teaching environment. Given the actions of what happens in an accident are what is being examined by HSE in a logical manner. They aren't just guessing, they're looking at it and the mechanics of long understood scenarios from their decades of experience.

But anyway.
In the vid, he is laying on, and the action of pressure from his hands are inward towards the fence, in line with the blade, and also holding it stationary to prevent it from moving backward beyond the point of the intended cut. Agree ?.
In effect the operator is using his right hand as an improvised back stop,but one that can move, so not really effective should he mis-align or the saw catch and try to kick out the component.
I would say that isnt a safe way, but if we replaced the right hand with a backstop, the action would effectively be the same. Dropping the component onto a moving and unguarded blade.
But thats not the dangerous part. The dangerous part is lifting it off. At this point it is at risk of snatching it as you need release inward pressure and at the same time lift the leading edge of the component, which risks coming into contact with the back and upward direction of the blade, which facilitates a kickback.


In my humble opinion, the choice of using a saw to make this cut is the wrong one, and it should probably be made on a spindlemoulder, using a slitting saw(or wobble saw) thats coming through a zero clearance fence(as in a sub fence of say 6mm ply and its been broken through)
Failing a moulder, then a router table with the same set up, or failing that a router and jig. But onto a saw no way.

30,000 saw bench injuries each year in the US, of which 4000 involved amputations.
OK the operator in this might be Canadian, but the statistics given lack of hse incentives is the same and will be proportional, in that its going to be a hell of a lot.
It's actually hard to find the data for Canada and the UK, but I'l hazard a guess out of all three the UK scores best with fewer accidents per head etc etc.


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## Kicked Back (7 Dec 2021)

the great waldo said:


> I`ve seen how one of those big cutters can grab and throw wood (in my case an electric guitar body grabbed the end grain and threw the body into just below the trouser belt line (you all know where) luckily it wasn't me)



That happened to me on my very first time using a router table, electric guitar body and everything, using one of those large Radian flush trim bits. I'd watched a video by Crimson Guitars (who I love) where Ben essentially free hands removing a mm at a time before finally having the guide bearing sit on the template. I tried it and it just ripped one of the horns off and sent the body flying... 

Now I never 1. start the cut with the workpiece unsupported by the fence or starting pin and 2. not have the template in contact with the bearing at all times. This usually means I bandsaw/disc sand much closer to the line before taking it to the router.


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## Doug71 (7 Dec 2021)

I would make those cuts using a plunge saw/track saw, it's what they are designed for. Much safer as any problems or kickback and the guard springs back over the blade plus your fingers should be well out of the way.

Can't see why anyone would do it on a table saw, it's just plain stupidity ☹


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## TRITON (7 Dec 2021)

Kicked Back said:


> That happened to me on my very first time using a router table, electric guitar body and everything, using one of those large Radian flush trim bits. I'd watched a video by Crimson Guitars (who I love) where Ben essentially free hands removing a mm at a time before finally having the guide bearing sit on the template. I tried it and it just ripped one of the horns off and sent the body flying...


I watched a joiner using a large panel raising bit freehand. I had to look away. 
He worked really slowly,and probably lucky for him had forearms like tree trunks, but still it was one of those EEK  moments


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## Blaidd-Drwg (7 Dec 2021)

One of my favourite furniture restorers on YouTube has many decades of experience and does excellent work. But every time he goes near his table saw I cringe. When I first started watching him his table saw practices almost made me stop, but I have just resigned myself to cringing once in a while in order to watch the rest of his work. There are quite a few comments about his practices in the comments sections and he has talked about it a bit, but it's been more about, "I was taught this way and I'm too old to learn a new way."

I don't use a table saw myself anymore, so he isn't teaching me the incorrect way to use one, but it is still irresponsible of him because I know from the comments section that there are quite a few newbies who are looking to him for guidance and follow him step by step.


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## Sgian Dubh (7 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> I'd question as to in what capacity that 'demonstration' was being made.
> But either way can we examine the mechanics of laying on.


Your response is interesting. Without commenting specifically to your discussion of the mechanics and procedure of dropping on and lifting off to make a limited length cut on a table saw, we're both evidently in agreement that what's shown isn't particularly safe.

As to the question of "_in what capacity that 'demonstration' was being made_", I'd say it's simply out there for all to see with the unspoken message, as far as I can recall, of 'this is how I do it, and it works for me'. That's all there is to it and it's up to the viewer to decide if they want to copy the procedure in some form. I wouldn't do it nor demonstrate or teach it because I'm fully aware of the risks that specific procedure involves; I also know safe ways to make essentially the same item as he made if I wanted to, but have no desire to do so. I don't know how other viewers of the video evaluate it from a safety aspect, or even if they do, and it's really neither my responsibility nor any of my business. In this case I simply found the subject piqued my curiosity, interesting enough anyway to cause me to comment, not something I do in many a thread. Slainte.


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## transatlantic (7 Dec 2021)

Blaidd-Drwg said:


> ...but it is still irresponsible of him because I know from the comments section that there are quite a few newbies who are looking to him for guidance and follow him step by step.



And there lies the problem.

Some things are obviously dodgy. Others ... not so much. A good example is climb cutting using a router. If you're new to using a router, it's not obvious that what the operator is doing goes againts the recommend techniques, and you might attempt to copy it in other scenarios where it is not applicable (e.g a much deeper cut).

But then again, you could argue that you shouldn't be learning to use a tool by simply watching someone else make a project. You should seek better, more imformative literature.

I don't know where to draw the line, but I know that the video in question is on the wrong side of that line. There is absolutely no reason he could have not just demonstrated the cut using the jigsaw, and then used his prefered approach off camera. Although personally, I think he does it for other reasons...


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## Spectric (7 Dec 2021)

Jester129 said:


> When I asked about the guarding, the American supervisor said, "If they're so stupid to put their hand in there, then they can!". It's clearly their mentality, as it is ours to put guards everywhere to protect the stupid Brits from themselves. That's our HSE working.


The person using any machine must take their share of responsibility, in a home workshop you will only ever have yourselve to blame and HSE is not involved but in a place of work then it is both you as the employed and the company, so if you use a machine in a dangerous way and hurt yourself and in the process impact the companies output then you can be held responsible for all loses. I do not know how the system works in the states but watching some of their reality programs the workforce out there do look like they take more chances, maybe because getting the job done is number one. 

Life is never going to be safe, there is no such thing as safe and all measures taken in a working enviroment can only reduce the probability of a hazard occuring to an acceptable level, to make a machine fully safe would mean removing the actual hazard, ie the cutting blade or implementing high level safety control systems at SIL 4 which in a home workshop is not feasable. As for online videos does it mater how dangerous the person is, if they show you an easy way to cut a few digits off then are you really going to follow suite, if you cannot make the judgment whether the practice is safe then you should look at doing something else. Ok there are some right idiots out there and you will never protect them from themselves, but is that not just natural selection, survival of the fittest.


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## Spectric (7 Dec 2021)

transatlantic said:


> Some things are obviously dodgy. Others ... not so much. A good example is climb cutting using a router. If you're new to using a router, it's not obvious that what the operator is doing goes againts the recommend techniques, and you might attempt to copy it in other scenarios where it is not applicable (e.g a much deeper cut).


It might just be my age, but before I even purchased a router I looked at books, yes those paper things that do not rely on the internet and did my homework for several reasons, one to purchase the right tool and also to learn the fundamentals. Training is a fundamental aspect of any safety culture and I trust a book more than you tube videos simply because you need a certain level of ability to write a book but can be a complete nuumb nuuts and still produce a you tube video. From a book you learn the basics like direction of cut and enough knowledge to progress further, and when looking at you tube you can decide on it's credability and some authors have moved online so you have trust, people like Bill Hyton, Alan Holtham and Ron Fox.


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## Spectric (7 Dec 2021)

For interest some good router info.






Ron's Tips - Wealden Tool Online Resources


Ron Fox used Wealden cutters for about 25 years and they formed the largest proportion of his cutter armoury. According to Ron, “cutter manufacturers will tell you, with good reason, that the router owes its versatility to the enormous range of cutters available for it. I think that there is a...




www.wealdentool.com


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## Bojam (7 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> It might just be my age, but before I even purchased a router I looked at books, yes those paper things that do not rely on the internet and did my homework for several reasons, one to purchase the right tool and also to learn the fundamentals. Training is a fundamental aspect of any safety culture and I trust a book more than you tube videos simply because you need a certain level of ability to write a book but can be a complete silly person and still produce a you tube video. From a book you learn the basics like direction of cut and enough knowledge to progress further, and when looking at you tube you can decide on it's credability and some authors have moved online so you have trust, people like Bill Hyton, Alan Holtham and Ron Fox.



Totally agree with this. Books are invaluable and can help assess/verify the credability of other sources. Also paying for DVDs or downloadable tutorials from credible sources - like e.g. the wood machining series by @Peter Sefton (of this parish) - is also worthwhile if taking training courses in person is not possible due to cost, time, location, or whatever. We need to assume responsibility for educating ourselves, especially when using dangerous machinery in our own workshops.


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## transatlantic (7 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> It might just be my age, but before I even purchased a router I looked at books, yes those paper things that do not rely on the internet and did my homework for several reasons, one to purchase the right tool and also to learn the fundamentals. Training is a fundamental aspect of any safety culture and I trust a book more than you tube videos simply because you need a certain level of ability to write a book but can be a complete nuumb nuuts and still produce a you tube video. From a book you learn the basics like direction of cut and enough knowledge to progress further, and when looking at you tube you can decide on it's credability and some authors have moved online so you have trust, people like Bill Hyton, Alan Holtham and Ron Fox.



Absolutely, I made that point.

But let's not forget, times are changing, and people are getting their information from different sources. There is no reason youtube cannot be a good source of information. The difficulty is assessing what's good and not so good before you're very familiar with the subject itself.

I'd also say that books can be just as bad as youtube videos. I have plenty of woodworking books showing questionable cuts on the tablesaw.

But I agree, publishing a bad video is FAR easier than publishing a bad book.


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

If anyone thinks they can instantly become a safe and accomplished woodworker after watching a couple of youtube vids, they shouldn't moan if they end up injured. If they want to become a woodworker, they should do what most woodworkers before them have done - train for many years!

I think most have the sense to realise that machines have to be understood before using them, and if they want to learn correct practices, they should seek out those specific videos, or better still, sign up for some proper training.

I personally enjoy seeing an individual's own way of doing things.

In answer to the original post - a piece will only kick back if it rotates, there was no way a reasonably large, square (ish) piece of 18mm ply was going to rotate in that particular situation. Having said that, I would have raised the blade into the workpiece, rather than dropping it on, but each to their own.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> .........
> In answer to the original post - a piece will only kick back if it rotates,


Not really. It just takes a little movement for a piece to skew sideways and be pressed against the fence / blade teeth and propelled forwards and/or upwards. Believe me I know from having made many basic mistakes over the years!


> there was no way a reasonably large, square (ish) piece of 18mm ply was going to rotate in that particular situation.


If very large it might just have a big bite taken out, but still alarming and unpredictable.


> Having said that, I would have raised the blade into the workpiece, rather than dropping it on, ...


Not viable unless the workpiece was held very firmly down and in by power feed or similar, and the saw could be cranked up easily. Mine couldn't - its a lever with a locking knob and a 2 handed operation. You couldn't adjust it whilst it was running - perhaps designed to make dangerous ops more difficult.


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## transatlantic (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> In answer to the original post - a piece will only kick back if it rotates, there was no way a reasonably large, square (ish) piece of 18mm ply was going to rotate in that particular situation.



But you can still have pieces fling back if they catch the teeth at the back of the blade as it rotates towards you. Like when you have a small offcut that isn't immediately removed after it has come free.

So seems like a similar thing could easily happen here. I.e the piece rotates by a tiny fraction, and catch the teeth at the back of the blade.


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

_ Not really. It just takes a little movement for a piece to skew sideways and be pressed against the fence / blade teeth and propelled forwards and/or upwards. Believe me I know from having made many basic mistakes over the years!_

I would consider a "skew" to be a rotational force. If you're making many mistakes, I would suggest you seek some professional training before you sustain a serious injury.

_If very large it might just have a big bite taken out, but still alarming and unpredictable._

I wouldn't suggest dropping a very large piece of anything on to a moving blade.

_Not viable unless the workpiece was held very firmly down and in by power feed or similar, and the saw could be cranked up easily. Mine couldn't - its a lever with a locking knob and a 2 handed operation. You couldn't adjust it whilst it was running - perhaps designed to make dangerous ops more difficult._

A firm pressure down with one hand (nowhere near the blade of course) whilst the other hand slowly winds the blade up - it's definitely viable, I've done it many times, but absolutely not if the saw in question requires two hands to raise the blade .


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> ......
> 
> A firm pressure down with one hand (nowhere near the blade of course) whilst the other hand slowly winds the blade up - it's definitely viable, I've done it many times, ......


Definitely possible, definitely dangerous. A really bad suggestion. I would suggest you seek some professional training before you sustain a serious injury.
PS I should add - I have done this very occasionally, to make a zero clearance insert, but with thin material and with very careful holding down - the insert already located in the opening for starters.


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

transatlantic said:


> But you can still have pieces fling back if they catch the teeth at the back of the blade as it rotates towards you. Like when you have a small offcut that isn't immediately removed after it has come free.
> 
> So seems like a similar thing could easily happen here. I.e the piece rotates by a tiny fraction, and catch the teeth at the back of the blade.



The off-cut should always be to the free (left) side of the blade, in other words, not trapped between the blade and the fence. Off-cuts in the correct place don't come flying towards you, trust me.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> The off-cut should always be to the free (left) side of the blade, in other words, not trapped between the blade and the fence. Off-cuts in the correct place don't come flying towards you, trust me.


But then the non off-cut piece is the risky one, as it would be with the OP's example at the start. His offcut is bobbing about loosely and unlikely to get snatched. Trust me. 
What you are saying is self evidently true but misses the point completely.


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

_Definitely possible, definitely dangerous. A really bad suggestion. I would suggest you seek some professional training before you sustain a serious injury._

A bad suggestion, but one that you have done yourself! The alternative is to drop (controlled) the piece onto the moving blade - if you prefer that option, then go for it.

I have been professionally trained - I used to teach. I hated it, and only did it for five years but never had an accident on my watch.


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## transatlantic (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> The off-cut should always be to the free (left) side of the blade, in other words, not trapped between the blade and the fence. Off-cuts in the correct place don't come flying towards you, trust me.


They absolutely do. You don't always need a fence for a piece to catch.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> .....
> 
> I have been professionally trained


Surprised! 


> - I used to teach. I hated it,......


Not surprised!


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

_But then the non off-cut piece is the risky one, as it would be with the OP's example at the start. His offcut is bobbing about loosely and unlikely to get snatched. Trust me. 
What you are saying is self evidently true but misses the point completely._

If the saw and fence are set-up properly, and the feed pressure is applied in the right direction, then there really shouldn't be any problems. Machines are consistent by nature, it is the operator who can be inconsistent - hence my advice that anyone attempting advanced operations on a machine of any kind, should seek professional training, and not to rely on a youtube vid, created for entertainment, not education.


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)




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## Jacob (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> ......my advice that anyone attempting advanced operations on a machine of any kind, should seek professional training, .....


Yes but not with a teacher who hated it, self evidently. Maybe you missed a module on safety with table saws?


> and not to rely on a youtube vid,


 You've obviously missed that almost everybody in this thread is being highly critical of this youtube vid, except for you. Maybe you should stop watching them.


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yes but not with a teacher who hated it, self evidently. Maybe you missed a module on safety with table saws?



No, I've never had an accident on any woodworking machine - and as I said, neither did any of my students. So I must have done something right


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> No, I've never had an accident on any woodworking machine - and as I said, neither did any of my students. So I must have done something right


No just lucky by the sounds of it. I've never had an accident either but I've seen how they can happen.


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> You've obviously missed that almost everybody in this thread is being highly critical of this youtube vid, except for you. Maybe you should stop watching them.



I have my own opinions, if they're contrary to yours or others, that's fine with me.

I would suggest that it is those that ARE critical of John Heisz, that should stop watching his vids, not those of us who enjoy them . . . .


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> No just lucky by the sounds of it. I've never had an accident either but I've seen how they can happen.



Two months after I left a student took the tips of his fingers off on the overhand planer - the classic fingers over the end mistake.

I guess we make our own luck.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> Two months after I left a student took the tips of his fingers off on the overhand planer - the classic fingers over the end mistake.
> 
> I guess we make our own luck.


Lucky it wasn't on your shift. Or was he one of your old students?


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## Kayen (7 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Lucky it wasn't on your shift. Or was he one of your old students?



As I said, you make your own luck in life.

He was one of my old students, and I always knew which ones to watch (probably lucky), especially on the planer, which didn't get used often - come to think about it, his name was Jacob too 

I hope you haven't got access to an overhand planer


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## bansobaby (7 Dec 2021)

A very interesting discussion. I’m not surprised at the diversity of opinion. To me it seems that the biggest improvements in safety, whether it be the equipment, training or legislation have been countered by the almost total disappearance of that old favourite, common sense.
As for having the video in question banned or censored, how many of the posters on this thread viewed and commented on the one about Fred Dibnah a few weeks ago…
I have done and probably will continue to do things equally as dangerous as the technique shown, but I wouldn’t do what he did in that situation as it’s unnecessary to achieve the ends.
Censorship gets us nowhere however…


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## Inspector (7 Dec 2021)

Unfortunately common sense is not natural or instinctive, it is learned. It comes from everything we learn through life from observed and specific training plus most importantly the ability to apply their knowledge base and adapt it to new situations. People that have never been exposed to any kind of hand/manual work have nothing to go on and their level for self preservation is low. They won't understand or know what is or isn't dangerous so are particularly vulnerable to following examples of bad practices that can get them hurt. Disclaimers are next to useless as they are only meant to protect the makers and not the user. Ask yourself when was the last time you read every word of a tool or machine manual especially the safety stuff you used? A coffee maker? Your car? The guy making a video that has been using a tool all their life should be responsible without being forced to explain where the dangers lay in their practices and to say it is not something beginners should do and mention safer methods but that responsibility isn't part of their makeup. Some will get hurt following those videos and others will pipe up with "They should have common sense." just like a number in this and other threads have said. 

Pete


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## alan895 (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> I would suggest that it is those that ARE critical of John Heisz, that should stop watching his vids, not those of us who enjoy them . . . .



Sadly that wont happen. I too like John's videos however you can put money on there being a similar thread or discussion the next time he does something that hits a nerve with a few here.


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## Kicked Back (7 Dec 2021)

Hmmm @ 1:30...


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2021)

Kayen said:


> As I said, you make your own luck in life.
> 
> He was one of my old students, and I always knew which ones to watch (probably lucky), especially on the planer, which didn't get used often - come to think about it, his name was Jacob too
> 
> I hope you haven't got access to an overhand planer


Have been using various planers and/or thicknessers since 1986. Biggest was an ancient 24" Wadkin. Most used various 10 to 12" machines, currently a 12" Minimax combination.


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## Ttrees (7 Dec 2021)

Kicked Back said:


> Hmmm @ 1:30...



That's another great example there, 
This is what we're talking about, not a video of one of ye grumpy grumps working, who lived at a time where Fred swung about on chimneys and toppled them near single handed
He lived and breathed the old way, bravado and all that, and wouldn't have it any other way.
I've watched a lot of him and at no stage was anything remotely tutor based.

Even for the folks here who are on the "brave" side/call it what you want.
I wouldn't think a video from any of you lot working would be, say if some production company wanted to pay to film you for a fortnight, dodgy, and if you did....

You're videos would likely come across as Ishitani's, and not tutor based whatsoever...
Maybe you disagree here?

Which is worlds apart from the would/could be "paranoid" forumites here,
who might chose to style their videos in a tutorial fashion, or a "you can do it" fashion like said videos above.


Seems to me, he really really wants someone to get hurt.
There's probably a better term for it, but completely psychopathic comes to mind, and is a good 
enough for him something more lenient than a youtuber "strike", whatever that is.

Take some other youtubers who do dangerous stuff, like Buckin Billy Ray lumberjack dude.
He teaches some stuff, but when the dangerous stuff is happening, he never titles/styles stuff with a 
*"You can do it"* theme.

Clear to see the difference I think.
There is evidence on the tube with folks who mention being thankful for him, as they can now use their tablesaw safely now
They should watch Steve Maskery's publications at the very least.

All the best
Tom


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## Alpha-Dave (7 Dec 2021)

I think this thread has reached the point where we need to bring in a video of a shingle sawyer as a reference point.



Of all the things that the sawyer is doing, the one that amazes me most is that he is smoking while every surface is covered in inches-thick sawdust.


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## Ttrees (7 Dec 2021)

Can't wait until they get one of those yolks in aldi


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## Original-Oddball (8 Dec 2021)

petermillard said:


> I tend to stay out of these kind of threads because honestly I’m with @doctor Bob on this one - really couldn’t give much of a toss!  What I do find baffling - bizarre, really - is the desire to hold individuals in other countries to the commercial safety standards of this one, whilst giving large TV companies and media corporations a free pass; someone further up the thread said they’d reported the YouTube video to HSE - I wonder if they did the same when Misty was flouncing around the ‘Britain’s Best Woodworker’ workshop/studio trailing scarves and sleeves in their wake, or when the chainsaws were out, or the turning?? As for those teddy bear ladies on repair shop, there’s not a single pair of safety specs between them, the horror!  I think I’ll write to my MP.
> 
> And before you sputter ‘..but that’s not the same thing…!’ well, that’s exactly the problem isn’t it; where do you draw that line?? Personally I think individuals should be responsible for their own actions - both those making YouTube videos and those watching them. If you tried to second-guess what some numpty might do with a set of spanners, you’d never get anything made.
> 
> You do you, and I’ll do me.


Hear Hear, well said, I couldn't agree more!
Here in the UK, have we really degenerated to the stage where we are only capable of an action or activity if some shiny buttocks in some Gov't office has written to tell us how to do it? 
I even saw a washing label in my Granddaughters T shirt which said "Machine washable. Remove child first" 

If common sense were more common more people would have it!


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## Adam W. (8 Dec 2021)

Alpha-Dave said:


> I think this thread has reached the point where we need to bring in a video of a shingle sawyer as a reference point.
> 
> 
> 
> Of all the things that the sawyer is doing, the one that amazes me most is that he is smoking while every surface is covered in inches-thick sawdust.



It's OK he's wearing gloves and has a fire extinguisher.


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## Jacob (8 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> It's OK he's wearing gloves and has a fire extinguisher.


He would only have lit the fag for the video. I used to do that - result; dozens of pics of me rolling one up whilst sitting on a mountain side or a beach etc


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## Kayen (8 Dec 2021)

alan895 said:


> Sadly that wont happen. I too like John's videos however you can put money on there being a similar thread or discussion the next time he does something that hits a nerve with a few here.



I think you're right, but I find that very weird, if someone offended me with their practices on youtube, I would just cease watching them, I certainly wouldn't contribute to their wealth.


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## TheTiddles (8 Dec 2021)

Original-Oddball said:


> Hear Hear, well said, I couldn't agree more!
> Here in the UK, have we really degenerated to the stage where we are only capable of an action or activity if some shiny buttocks in some Gov't office has written to tell us how to do it?
> I even saw a washing label in my Granddaughters T shirt which said "Machine washable. Remove child first"
> 
> If common sense were more common more people would have it!


That’s one view. I’m personally quite proud to live in a country where we take the value of life seriously. I’m sure you’re benefiting from that whilst simultaneously deriding it, how fortunate you are to be able to do that.

There are some terrible H&S people giving the profession the reputation it has, I’m not sure it’s the only profession that suffers from that.


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## stuart little (9 Dec 2021)

Original-Oddball said:


> Hear Hear, well said, I couldn't agree more!
> Here in the UK, have we really degenerated to the stage where we are only capable of an action or activity if some shiny buttocks in some Gov't office has written to tell us how to do it?
> I even saw a washing label in my Granddaughters T shirt which said "Machine washable. Remove child first"
> 
> If common sense were more common more people would have it!


I've seen that one, but wonder whether they mean remove child from the machine or from the item?


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## John Brown (9 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


> I've seen that one, but wonder whether they mean remove child from the machine or from the item?


I haven't seen the T shirt in question, but I would bet that label is intentionally funny.


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## Daniel2 (9 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> I haven't seen the T shirt in question, but I would bet that label is intentionally funny.



I wouldn't be so sure these days.


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## BRYN STOCKER (10 Dec 2021)

I’m sure many of you guys will remember the Elu Flipover saw. That is the only tool I’ve ever gotten rid of simply because it scared me! During my early days of using it, whilst cutting thin rips against the fence, I discovered the rip had a tendency to fly back and hit you square in the belly. I can hear you all screaming “Push stick!!”.
I needed both ands on the stock sheet to keep it square. “Simple!” I thought. Just keep your Youngs Special induced beer belly out of way. This I did, rather nimbly if I say it myself, however, instead of hitting me the rip of MDF flew like an arrow through the lower sash of the window behind me.
Said window was, of course, closed !!
The neat hole through the glass was fascinating, as was the fact that the “missile” ended up on the pavement across the street. Okay, only a fairly narrow Victorian street in Battersea, but by virtue of that, the box-sashes were single pane and pretty huge. The cost and aggravation of the resulting repair made me think long and hard about my safety procedures.
I obviously needed a bigger, more impact-absorbing beer belly! Cheers!


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## Sporky McGuffin (10 Dec 2021)

Or an anti-stab vest. Do they work against high-velocity MDF?


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## Sandyn (10 Dec 2021)

jcassidy said:


> That's not the point that being made and you are both being facetious.


I think it's all been said already, but the internet is full of 'dangerous' advice. If someone isn't smart enough to know that, they shouldn't really be using a table saw. You can't possibly police the internet and filter out all the 'dangerous' content.
I don't want to see people injured using dangerous equipment, but I believe that with a percentage of people it will happen sooner or later even if they don't watch videos. And it would probably still happen if they only ever watched safe videos. These tools are dangerous. 

What did 'I Build It' say when you complained about the dangerous advice in the video?


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## TRITON (10 Dec 2021)

Alpha-Dave said:


> I think this thread has reached the point where we need to bring in a video of a shingle sawyer as a reference point.


That is seriously scary  the way he walks close to the main blade wearing baggy sleeves. I had to move the cursor along the vid to check it didnt end badly before watching it.

Each and every year there will be statistics concerning accidents involving woodworking machinery both in the home and in industry. EVERY YEAR.
These statistics have to come from somewhere and you can bet your last quid that the operator in each was doing something you won't find in the HSE handbook. Be that lack of concentration through to removing a guard through to wearing the wrong sort of clothing, or doing something thats just plainly stupid.

Now here, this guy has probably done this many times. this time however it ended badly for him. Thought the vid is linked to an ambulance chasing lawyer who has this silly person believing it wasn't really his fault.
Dont worry, there is nothing gory to see that will put you off your tea.


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## Ttrees (10 Dec 2021)

Sandyn said:


> I don't want to see people injured using dangerous equipment, but I believe that with a percentage of people it will happen sooner or later even if they don't watch videos. And it would probably still happen if they only ever watched safe videos. These tools are dangerous.



An very interesting topic that brings up Sandyn.
I know it's being a bit silly, but I'd like to imagine that there will be enough good content on the internet, hopefully on youtube which folks can easily find the good stuff,
(a good bite out of said percentage)
There's not that many tablesaw accidents and lessons on such on the tube...so far

I think there's a huge gap in the market (for youtubers) there.
All needed to make a viral video is a compilation of all of these.
There is likely many folk who have hidden videos of accidents, and some other folk maybe holding out
not giving rights to show videos in return for cash.

Just need some experienced woodworker and profitable youtuber to compile them all,and make hands down the best video which youtube would stick down anyone's throat who manages to get tablesaw safe.. written down.

Take a look at that viral bandsaw setup video for small machines for example...

didn't even have to name Mr Snodgrass, did I ?

It's surely about the right time and might well change the perception of the machine, not that it's not happening already.
Take a look at sawmill creek to see some threads, and you will find the same story, about the same machine (sawstop)
The wife made me/was at a show/kid starting woodwork/cut themselves/delta or similar needing an upgrade.

Trying to say, by some very incremental amount, were not going backwards at the least...IMO.
Maybe you guys disagree?


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## TRITON (10 Dec 2021)

> I don't want to see people injured using dangerous equipment,


Years ago aged 16 i did a 12 month engineering course and right at the start we all sat in for a lecture on safety. In it were vids from the HSE showing the results of accidents in full gory colour(I think I've mentioned this before)
They are designed to scare you into not doing something they dont recommend, and although that was nearly 40 years ago, I can remember each pic vividly.


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## Sandyn (10 Dec 2021)

When I started work it was under the official secrets act. I was shown a video of how a very attractive woman would get me drunk, seduce me and get all the secret information from me. 20 years and she never turned up, never got me drunk, never seduced me so I got fed up and left. I can still remember what she looked like........


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## Sandyn (10 Dec 2021)

A good start would be if manufacturers had to produce on-line safety instructions for the equipment they sell which shows new users the dangers of the particular machine. A QR code stuck to the machine and in the safety information section of the documentation, which links to the safety video. This should be a standard for all machinery. Links to be active for the life of the machine +5 years.
There's no guarantee people would watch, but no excuse if they then do something stupid.


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## Ttrees (10 Dec 2021)

The Jet sharpener came with a DVD.
I think I'd have watched it a few times if it were a dangerous machine.


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## Droogs (10 Dec 2021)

@Sandyn you obviously got the carp postings then mate, mine was brunette and Bulgarian while I was in Berlin and had an approach from a very ugly Kazak when I was working for the UN in Africa but he did offer me a lot of cash.


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## Giles55 (11 Dec 2021)

transatlantic said:


> First off, I'm not going to attempt this cut. I wouldn't dream of it. Quite happy to use a jig saw.
> 
> ...but
> 
> ...



Well I laughed out loud. At the precise moment he says not to move the wood backwards, he moves the wood backwards.
I have been woodworking in open access workshops recently and I have been literally speechless at times due to the mental things I see routinely. So the guy in the video seems not so bad by comparison. Its a risky cut but I don’t think it meets the threshold for complete insanity. If it did kick back where are his hands going? I don’t think they are going into the blade. If the wood leaves the table is he in the firing line? When I use the router table or the table saw I often hook my fingers over the fence. If the wood disappears my hand can’t be pushed into the blade. It’s not always applicable obviously. Personally I always take machinery seriously and I play out what would happen if I get a kickback. I can then ensure I wont be pushing into the blade or standing in the firing line. I think that a very well known you tuber is giving out very dangerous advice in this respect. He implies that using machinery just requires locating the on off switch. Every time the word “ machinery “ issues forth from his mouth, complete drivel follows. He actually said ( referring to woodwork with machinery) “ it can barely be called woodcraft “ I actually spat my coffee out when I heard that. It’s no wonder people underestimate the need to take machinery seriously. Can anyone take a wild guess who would say such an idiotic thing?


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## hennebury (11 Dec 2021)

_Every time the word “ machinery “ issues forth from his mouth, complete drivel follows. He actually said ( referring to woodwork with machinery) “ it can barely be called woodcraft “ I actually spat my coffee out when I heard that. It’s no wonder people underestimate the need to take machinery seriously. Can anyone take a wild guess who would say such an idiotic thing? _ 

Paul Sellers


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## TRITON (11 Dec 2021)

Giles55 said:


> Its a risky cut but I don’t think it meets the threshold for complete insanity. If it did kick back where are his hands going?


Have you seen the vid on YT of a 'Kickback on camera' ? Where the silly old sausage deliberately induces a kickback and its only through luck he doesn't end up shredding a hand, and he recognizes the fact, and probably later on after a sit down and a cup of tea privately thought to himself how dumb he was to try to recreate such. I also surmise he takes far more precautions now than he did previously in a wake up call revelation.
3:30 on 


I love my pushsticks, I've about 4 sitting on the saw table of different types(home made18-20") for when I'm using it. Those little push blocks as per vid aren't a safe optiion, in that it seems to defeat the purpose and point of a pushstick in the first place


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## Cabinetman (11 Dec 2021)

I know we’ve been all over it before, but I’m going to say it again, you’re quite right those push blocks are so dangerous, so all newbies reading this please use pushsticks. And if you’re unsure watch the previous vid! Ian


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## Adam W. (11 Dec 2021)

I have an even better solution to using the poorly set up college machinery. I just wander into the shop with it all marked out and deposit it in the technicians hands, nod, smile and walk out.

Normally it's done within the hour for me to collect......Lovely!


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## Giles55 (11 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Have you seen the vid on YT of a 'Kickback on camera' ? Where the silly old sausage deliberately induces a kickback and its only through luck he doesn't end up shredding a hand, and he recognizes the fact, and probably later on after a sit down and a cup of tea privately thought to himself how dumb he was to try to recreate such. I also surmise he takes far more precautions now than he did previously in a wake up call revelation.
> 3:30 on
> 
> 
> I love my pushsticks, I've about 4 sitting on the saw table of different types(home made18-20") for when I'm using it. Those little push blocks as per vid aren't a safe optiion, in that it seems to defeat the purpose and point of a pushstick in the first place



That’s mental, and illustrates exactly why I hook my fingers over the fence whenever possible.
His fence is really wide so I don’t think it would have been an option. The footage also illustrates what I realised some time back. When a kick back happens, it’s all over before the information reaches your brain. There is no time to react, he was so lucky.


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## Giles55 (11 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> _Every time the word “ machinery “ issues forth from his mouth, complete drivel follows. He actually said ( referring to woodwork with machinery) “ it can barely be called woodcraft “ I actually spat my coffee out when I heard that. It’s no wonder people underestimate the need to take machinery seriously. Can anyone take a wild guess who would say such an idiotic thing? _
> 
> Paul Sellers


Bingo


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## hennebury (11 Dec 2021)

A simple solution might be for a woodworking channel on YouTube that was a Heath and safety approved educational channel, specifically approved for teaching the "correct" method of using tools and machinery. Each country could have their own health and safety channel. Or individuals could submit their videos to be reviewed and hopefully receive Health and safety stamp ( for a small fee) which they could proudly advertise to promote their channel. The rest of woodworking videos that did not have any Health and safety seal of approval would be "at your own risk" " have not been rated or approved, by Health board and safety etc."


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## Cabinetman (11 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> A simple solution might be for a woodworking channel on YouTube that was a Heath and safety approved educational channel, specifically approved for teaching the "correct" method of using tools and machinery. Each country could have their own health and safety channel. Or individuals could submit their videos to be reviewed and hopefully receive Health and safety stamp ( for a small fee) which they could proudly advertise to promote their channel. The rest of woodworking videos that did not have any Health and safety seal of approval would be "at your own risk" " have not been rated or approved, by Health board and safety etc."


This is probably the best idea to date! But who does the vetting, that could be a whole new can of worms. lol


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## Sandyn (11 Dec 2021)

Droogs said:


> you obviously got the carp postings then mate


Was in sunny Dalgety Bay in Fife


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## Sandyn (11 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Heath and safety approved educational channel,


They already have some safety advice on their site


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## Droogs (11 Dec 2021)

LOL my 2nd last posting was Pitrivie Castle, down in the big bunker. I could only do my job if and after the big party happened as my role was to be the morse operator for the rebuilding of the nation lol. Most of the time i just sat and played cards with the matelos


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## TheTiddles (11 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> A simple solution might be for a woodworking channel on YouTube that was a Heath and safety approved educational channel, specifically approved for teaching the "correct" method of using tools and machinery. Each country could have their own health and safety channel. Or individuals could submit their videos to be reviewed and hopefully receive Health and safety stamp ( for a small fee) which they could proudly advertise to promote their channel. The rest of woodworking videos that did not have any Health and safety seal of approval would be "at your own risk" " have not been rated or approved, by Health board and safety etc."


We could call it the health and safety executive, maybe they could be a government department and have some kind of legislation to enable them to protect people in the workplace… what a bold future you dream of


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## hennebury (11 Dec 2021)

Who's a funny moose? Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your reply?

If everything has been done, what is all of the fuss about? 
Let people post their videos, let whatever happens happen.

If the British government has an official woodworking, Youtube channel showing how to use all of the woodworking machines, what is all the bitching about?

If people can get their videos approved by the health and safety, why all the fuss? just watch government approved videos and you will be safe and happy.

Hey I am fine with that. I have no problem with the guys video, no problem at all, don't have any problem with Alex Honold posting videos of him climbing El Capitan 3000 ft without ropes, or watching isle of mann racing. And I don't need anyone dictating how I work or what I can show about how I work. If you don't like it don't watch it.

Alex Honold climbed 3000ft about 4 hours without safety gear, one slip and he's dead. And you have a bunch of woodworkers complaining about how the video of a guy making a 3 second cut is too dangerous to be allowed for public viewing ?? If you don't know how to use a table saw, don't, if you can't focus for 3 or 4 secs, maybe woodworking is not for you.

The bold future that i dream of is one where children grow up into responsible adults. Where people learn to balance risk with knowledge, skill and confidence, not a world where others dictate what we can see and do. I don't want to live in a world where you can stick your hand into a table saw and not get hurt. I would rather learn to use a tablesaw, understand the danger and use that to focus and concentrate on what I was doing. It seems that many are trying to remove risk and danger from our lives, to remove our need to study and learn, and to accept responsibility for what we do. You don't need to understand or learn anything, you want answers, just google it, some one will give you the answer, no need to waste your time and clutter your brain trying to figure stuff out. 

If you want to have an adult discussion about the topic, I am more than willing to discuss it, but if you want to make childish comments, go out and play with the other kids and leave the adults alone.


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## D_W (11 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> _Every time the word “ machinery “ issues forth from his mouth, complete drivel follows. He actually said ( referring to woodwork with machinery) “ it can barely be called woodcraft “ I actually spat my coffee out when I heard that. It’s no wonder people underestimate the need to take machinery seriously. Can anyone take a wild guess who would say such an idiotic thing? _
> 
> Paul Sellers



It's interesting he would say that as when he attempts to demonstrate dimensioning by hand, it's clear that he's done little of it other than demonstrating to a captive audience of beginners. 

He doesn't even know (unless it's a gimmick) what the cap iron is for and when he attempts to square stock in one of his videos, the demonstration is painful to watch - like a man trying to tighten a bolt with a drinking straw.


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## Spectric (11 Dec 2021)

The best way to learn can often be the hard or painful way, we all have to make our own judgement on how safe we are working or doing something and then either live with the consequences or have made sure our families do not have to pick up the funeral cost. Humans are a weak link when it comes to safety and there will always be incidents that could easily have been prevented. Look for the guy who decided to fit a 9 inch disc into a mini grinder because it would not cut a manhole, he did not look so good with a large section of that disc embedded into his skull. Then you have a guy in Australia working on the overheads in a basket, could not be bothered to come back down to ground to get the right tools and compromised on the means of grounding the basket, got fried, I think his name was Cheney. So the more safe we try and make things seems to give people a false sense of safety, if they just accept things can be dangerous then perhaps they will change habits and work safer.


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## hennebury (11 Dec 2021)

Your 90 year old grandmother or your sixteen your old kid can go buy a tablesaw, or a chainsaw or sharp knife of any number of dangerous items. I bought a 500cc scrambler motorcycle in 1974, a bit of a step up from my bicycle. All I had to do was pay for it. I bought it after watching a motocross movie. If I got injured, who should be responsible, Robert Redford, the movie producer, the cinema, Yamaha, the dealer that sold me the bike or me?
Life comes with danger, get used to it. Take responsibility for your own safety. 

The very title of this thread speaks volumes, you have a guy that owns and uses a table saw, posting a question that shows that he doesn't understand the saw.
That is what is dangerous! Far more so than what the guy in the video is doing.
I don't wish to pick on the OP, but it needs to be said.


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## hennebury (11 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> It's interesting he would say that as when he attempts to demonstrate dimensioning by hand, it's clear that he's done little of it other than demonstrating to a captive audience of beginners.
> 
> He doesn't even know (unless it's a gimmick) what the cap iron is for and when he attempts to square stock in one of his videos, the demonstration is painful to watch - like a man trying to tighten a bolt with a drinking straw.


I watched one of his videos, that was enough for me. The thing is there is apparently a desperate need for gurus in the world. It appears that people want to remain like children with some father figure giving them all of the answers so they don't have to figure it out for themselves. and as seen on this thread there are many that are willing to step up and take the role of Dad to us all. 

Leaders and followers, they are half people, incomplete without each other. and the rest of us that can think for ourselves and don't need them.


----------



## John Brown (12 Dec 2021)

Some chap posts a video of a questionable table saw procedure, and somehow, after seven pages of back and forth, it's all Paul Sellers' fault. Even more strangely, D_W, our resident expert on absoeffinglutely everything, seems to have him mixed up with Jacob. 
All highly entertaining. Keep it coming, guys.


----------



## TheTiddles (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> Some chap posts a video of a questionable table saw procedure, and somehow, after seven pages of back and forth, it's all Paul Sellers' fault. Even more strangely, D_W, our resident expert on absoeffinglutely everything, seems to have him mixed up with Jacob.
> All highly entertaining. Keep it coming, guys.


Borderline amusing ain’t it? How do they find the time to make anything between posting so much, ermmm “content”.


----------



## hennebury (12 Dec 2021)

What is amusing is how some people attempt to add content to the topic of discussion and others with the smug attitude set themselves up as above that and instead try to insult and belittle those in the discussion. So To all of you super smart buttocks, why don't you take a long look at yourselves, and get of your high horses and join the discussion. It is really easy to sit back and belittle people. poke fun and be sarcastic, it was fun when I was at school in the 60's And I am sure that I can be as rude and belittling as most, if I chose. this thread is in my opinion an interesting and important discussion which you could maybe add something to. If you cant add anything of value to the conversation, maybe you could just not say anything.


----------



## Insanity (12 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Have you seen the vid on YT of a 'Kickback on camera' ? Where the silly old sausage deliberately induces a kickback and its only through luck he doesn't end up shredding a hand, and he recognizes the fact, and probably later on after a sit down and a cup of tea privately thought to himself how dumb he was to try to recreate such. I also surmise he takes far more precautions now than he did previously in a wake up call revelation.
> 3:30 on
> 
> 
> I love my pushsticks, I've about 4 sitting on the saw table of different types(home made18-20") for when I'm using it. Those little push blocks as per vid aren't a safe optiion, in that it seems to defeat the purpose and point of a pushstick in the first place




I saw that a few months back. I couldn't believe how stupid that was. There is plenty of videos showing accidental kickback from various YouTubers. Absolutely no need to do it deliberately, he was a very lucky man!


----------



## Giles55 (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> Some chap posts a video of a questionable table saw procedure, and somehow, after seven pages of back and forth, it's all Paul Sellers' fault. Even more strangely, D_W, our resident expert on absoeffinglutely everything, seems to have him mixed up with Jacob.
> All highly entertaining. Keep it coming, guys.





TheTiddles said:


> Borderline amusing ain’t it? How do they find the time to make anything between posting so much, ermmm “content”.


Just chatting. I wasn’t aware I was supposed to okay everything with you first but thanks so much for enlightening me. You must be awesome. I want to be like you.


----------



## John Brown (12 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> What is amusing is how some people attempt to add content to the topic of discussion and others with the smug attitude set themselves up as above that and instead try to insult and belittle those in the discussion. So To all of you super smart buttocks, why don't you take a long look at yourselves, and get of your high horses and join the discussion. It is really easy to sit back and belittle people. poke fun and be sarcastic, it was fun when I was at school in the 60's And I am sure that I can be as rude and belittling as most, if I chose. this thread is in my opinion an interesting and important discussion which you could maybe add something to. If you cant add anything of value to the conversation, maybe you could just not say anything.


I'm sorry, if you can't see why the idea that Paul Sellers, who, apart from the occasional use of a cordless drill/driver, uses exclusively hand tools, should be somehow responsible for dangerous attitudes to power tools, is funny.
D_W weighing in with criticism of Sellers' stock dimensioning is weird, but not surprising.


In other news, Linda McCartney responsible for unsafe abbatoir practices.


----------



## Jacob (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm sorry, if you can't see why the idea that Paul Sellers, who, apart from the occasional use of a cordless drill/driver, uses exclusively hand tools, should be somehow responsible for dangerous attitudes to power tools, is funny.
> D_W weighing in with criticism of Sellers' stock dimensioning is weird, but not surprising.
> 
> 
> In other news, Linda McCartney responsible for unsafe abbatoir practices.


Any links to Sellers' stock dimensioning vids?
He's OK Sellers but he does burble on and sometimes get things wrong. Generally very practical, sensible and not trying to sell anything other than his own stuff.


----------



## Giles55 (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm sorry, if you can't see why the idea that Paul Sellers, who, apart from the occasional use of a cordless drill/driver, uses exclusively hand tools, should be somehow responsible for dangerous attitudes to power tools, is funny.
> D_W weighing in with criticism of Sellers' stock dimensioning is weird, but not surprising.
> 
> 
> In other news, Linda McCartney responsible for unsafe abbatoir practices.


Well, Paul Sellers constantly implies that hand tool woodwork is somehow set apart from anything done using machinery despite the fact that his large projects start with machined wood. Whenever he mentions machinery he implies that it’s use is as difficult as locating the on off switch. Suggesting to a novice woodworker that machinery is somehow less than and something which doesn’t require skill and diligence is dangerous. I was constantly surprised by his dismissive tone when I saw his posts. I am not alone in noticing this. At least one prominent woodworking journalist has written about this. The article didn’t inform my view it just served to suggest that I was not misreading the situation. I am for the most part a hand tool woodworker but I don’t consider hand tools are better or worse than machinery. So I stand by what I said, it’s a potentially dangerous view, it’s snobbery and just insulting to suggest that using machines is somehow lesser.


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## Adam W. (12 Dec 2021)

He does come across as a frightful snob.


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## MikeJhn (12 Dec 2021)

Going back to the OP would it not have been easier to clamp the piece to the table with the blade retracted and then raise the blade under the workpiece or am I missing something?


----------



## Giles55 (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm sorry, if you can't see why the idea that Paul Sellers, who, apart from the occasional use of a cordless drill/driver, uses exclusively hand tools, should be somehow responsible for dangerous attitudes to power tools, is funny.
> D_W weighing in with criticism of Sellers' stock dimensioning is weird, but not surprising.
> 
> 
> In other news, Linda McCartney responsible for unsafe abbatoir practices.


He uses machined wood for some of his projects and in the next breath proclaims that machinery is unnecessary. You only see hand tools in his posts but he is definitely putting forth his bizarre opinions about machinery on a regular basis. You couldn’t with any sincerity say otherwise. So he definitely is influencing people’s views of machinery.


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## Giles55 (12 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> He does come across as a frightful snob.


Totally, I will be sharing a workshop with a severely disabled woodworker next week. He uses machinery because he has no choice. Maybe I should let him know that everything he does is a second rate version of woodworking. Perhaps I can suggest that he gives up and just watches me doing the real thing with my beautifully set up, razor sharp hand tools. I am sure he will be thrilled to know that he is “less than “.


----------



## John Brown (12 Dec 2021)




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## Jacob (12 Dec 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Going back to the OP would it not have been easier to clamp the piece to the table with the blade retracted and then raise the blade under the workpiece or am I missing something?


Easier and safer yes but would take a little longer. Some TS (like mine) not so easy if the rise and fall is a lever and not turn screw of some sort.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2021)

Giles55 said:


> Totally, I will be sharing a workshop with a severely disabled woodworker next week. He uses machinery because he has no choice. Maybe I should let him know that everything he does is a second rate version of woodworking. Perhaps I can suggest that he gives up and just watches me doing the real thing with my beautifully set up, razor sharp hand tools. I am sure he will be thrilled to know that he is “less than “.


I think it's a good thing having a few enthusiasts for hand tool use - they do tend to get overlooked by the machinery and gadget agents and very useful skills get lost.
It's not controversial like a battle to be won or lost it's just a point of view


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## Daniel2 (12 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I think it's a good thing having a few enthusiasts for hand tool use - they do tend to get overlooked by the machinery and gadget agents and the skills gets lost.



Enthusiastic proponent yes; deriding pretentious snob, no.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Enthusiastic proponent yes; deriding pretentious snob, no.


OK but he never struck me like that.


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## Daniel2 (12 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK but he never struck me like that.



I used to watch his videos and, credit where due, I found he had a lot
of useful information to impart.
However, over the course of time, his attitude and continual beating
of the same tired old drum became too tiresome. It's for that reason
that I stopped watching him and I do find that a bit of a pity.


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## John Brown (12 Dec 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Enthusiastic proponent yes; deriding pretentious snob, no.


Let's not forget that he's a practising Satanist, as well.


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## transatlantic (12 Dec 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Going back to the OP would it not have been easier to clamp the piece to the table with the blade retracted and then raise the blade under the workpiece or am I missing something?



I think he does it the "unconventional" way on purpose. Perhaps to attract attention to the video? (which he's successfully done here  )

Personally, I would just use a jigsaw though. And if the lines had to be straight, maybe a jigsaw guided by a fence?

I think another way is with a track saw (if you have one)


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## Daniel2 (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> Let's not forget that he's a practising Satanist, as well.



Really ? Do tell....


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## Giles55 (12 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I think it's a good thing having a few enthusiasts for hand tool use - they do tend to get overlooked by the machinery and gadget agents and very useful skills get lost.
> It's not controversial like a battle to be won or lost it's just a point of view


I am all for hand tool use I find it jarring however when he denigrates the use of machinery and implies a correlation between machinery and lack of skill. It’s interesting to hear other people’s opinions.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2021)

transatlantic said:


> I think he does it the "unconventional" way on purpose. Perhaps to attract attention to the video? (which he's successfully done here  )
> 
> Personally, I would just use a jigsaw though. And if the lines had to be straight, maybe a jigsaw guided by a fence?
> 
> I think another way is with a track saw (if you have one)


The thing is - what he did obviously worked really well and very quickly, but dangerous in inexperienced hands. Apparently the yanks do get a lot of TS accidents, which is all you need to know! Haven't actually looked up the figures myself.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2021)

Giles55 said:


> I am all for hand tool use I find it jarring however when he denigrates the use of machinery and implies a correlation between machinery and lack of skill. It’s interesting to hear other people’s opinions.


Perhaps being a bit over sensitive! 
They go on and on about the latest machine gizmos - look at MFT enthusiast pages for instance, or the slightly passed craze for doing everything with routers. And hand tools too - japanese saws, crazy sharpening etc. 
It's as though every other woodworker is a crack pot enthusiast for something or other!


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## transatlantic (12 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> The thing is - what he did obviously worked really well and very quickly, but dangerous in inexperienced hands. Apparently the yanks do get a lot of TS accidents, which is all you need to know! Haven't actually looked up the figures myself.



I guess it depends on how you define it as working well. He got the results he wanted to achieve sure, but as a repeatable process, is it something you want to be doing over and over?

If you were making that kind of cut daily, how long do you think it would be before you had an accident?

Personally, I won't make any kind of cut that I am not happy to do repeatedly.

I do not subscribe to the idea of doing the odd dodgy cut because .. it's just one cut.


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## Spectric (12 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Your 90 year old grandmother or your sixteen your old kid can go buy a tablesaw, or a chainsaw or sharp knife of any number of dangerous items. I bought a 500cc scrambler motorcycle in 1974, a bit of a step up from my bicycle. All I had to do was pay for it. I bought it after watching a motocross movie. If I got injured, who should be responsible, Robert Redford, the movie producer, the cinema, Yamaha, the dealer that sold me the bike or me?
> Life comes with danger, get used to it. Take responsibility for your own safety.


The real world, it seems over here that people think the government is some kind of giant safety net. We had a bad storm and people lost their power supply and then they want to blame the government for not reacting quickly enough or they should have deployed the army, when did you last see a politician up a pole re-stringing cables! In simple terms shiete happens so get over it and be better prepared next time.


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## Sporky McGuffin (12 Dec 2021)

I think there's a sensible middle ground between the nanny state and throwing babies out into the woods to see if they're tough enough to make worthwhile human beings. We'll each have a position between those extremes.

My view is that it's probably not good to have demonstrations by someone suggesting that they're competent, showing them working in ways that clearly aren't safe, because it's easy to see it not go wrong that time and assume that that's a normal safe thing to do with a tablesaw. I _think _there's general agreement that dropping a bit of wood onto a spinning saw blade isn't terribly sensible.

Calling for personal responsibility for safety is fine, but only when it works both ways - the same call should be made of people presenting dangerous ways of working. They are responsible to some degree for the outcome of their actions, just as I am responsible for the outcome of mine.

This does of course circle back to the question of protecting people from stupidity, which is another spirited discussion to be had again and again.


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## Sporky McGuffin (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> Let's not forget that he's a practising Satanist, as well.



Now I like him a bit more than I did.


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## Spectric (12 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> This does of course circle back to the question of protecting people from stupidity,


Stupid people will be stupid and happily follow other stupid people because they don't realise they are stupid because they are too stupid to comprehend stupidity, the problem is that some clever people realise they need protection and so have created jobs for stupid people and now we have a lot of stupid rules and regulations because the stupid people think they are clever and we are the stupid people who need protection.


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## D_W (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> D_W weighing in with criticism of Sellers' stock dimensioning is weird, but not surprising.



It stands out in my mind aside from the fact I've never seen evidence of fine work from him. He's done almost 40 years of farming beginners, but it's evident that he spent his early time feeding wood into a thicknesser.

If he makes a comment about hand tool work being superior but cannot show a beginner how to do rough work with hand tools competently, it's a gimmick as fake as a football bat.

Most of the gurus supposedly teaching people to work by hand set their students up for failure and then argue with people who actually work primarily by hand. They can do so because they ride on a cushion of fanboys.

When I started pushing the cap iron stuff, which is essential to hand dimensioning, Mark hennebury was the only person save one other guy in the US who was on target about it. If Paul had actually worked by hand, it would've been essential for productivity.

The video where Paul takes a later saw handle and mangles it into something horrid looking is just as puzzling in a country where beautiful saw handles were made in bulk.


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## John Brown (12 Dec 2021)

But it has nothing to do with the thread! You're simply indulging your penchant for criticizing Paul Sellers.


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## hennebury (12 Dec 2021)

Frist of all, I never gave any opinion of Paul Sellers, I just recognized the description of him. 

Secondly as already has been stated he has been pushing the idea that machinery requires no skill or knowledge to use, and you simply push the wood into it and it does the job for you. This is something that in my opinion is something very dangerous for a Guru with half a million devoted followers to be spreading.

I have heard this opinion before over the past 50 years that I have been woodworking, but at no time before has a single person had such power to directly influence so many! With that power should come responsibility to do it right, and Paul Sellers does it wrong!








John Brown said:


> I'm sorry, if you can't see why the idea that Paul Sellers, who, apart from the occasional use of a cordless drill/driver, uses exclusively hand tools, should be somehow responsible for dangerous attitudes to power tools, is funny.
> D_W weighing in with criticism of Sellers' stock dimensioning is weird, but not surprising.
> 
> 
> In other news, Linda McCartney responsible for unsafe abbatoir practices.


----------



## D_W (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> But it has nothing to do with the thread! You're simply indulging your penchant for criticizing Paul Sellers.



it has quite a lot to do with it. Mark made a relevant comment about the idea that this is dangerous in a world where people ride motorcycles and visit other parts of the world, etc, and then brought up paul sellers (who sort of caters to the group thinking there's some lifestyle working by hand and avoiding this danger, but who himself shows no evidence of having ever worked entirely by hand). 

Both have to do with narrow exposure and wanting someone to create a very small slice of reality when what most people are missing is experience. 

But this kind of hand wringing and use of other people as examples (good or bad) is what internet forums are about and they've existed for as long as I can remember. If you talk with a more experienced group of woodworkers and someone starts on some dogmatic diatribe about safety, it usually results in eyes rolling as it has nothing to do with making things. 

There should be a filter for both this kind of topic and one for Paul Sellers and Rob Cosman types. "Here is the beginner safety slice, and over here is your alternative. If you want to spend a lot of time in either of these topics, we'll see you here in this same place in 10 years". 

I enjoyed Mark's description of a country by country filter of what is approved and acceptable. If we could use this coarse sieve to keep the folks attracted to this away from the folks talking about making things, it would be great.


----------



## D_W (12 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Frist of all, I never gave any opinion of Paul Sellers, I just recognized the description of him.
> 
> Secondly as already has been stated he has been pushing the idea that machinery requires no skill or knowledge to use, and you simply push the wood into it and it does the job for you. This is something that in my opinion is something very dangerous for a Guru with half a million devoted followers to be spreading.
> 
> I have heard this opinion before over the past 50 years that I have been woodworking, but at no time before has a single person had such power to directly influence so many! With that power should come responsibility to do it right, and Paul Sellers does it wrong!



There is enough skill in using machinery to do good work (not just square work with joints on the corners and a chamfer) that I don't even comment on it, and one of the reasons that I don't use a lot of machinery (including for making tools) is because it is a skill that you have to learn. It can be flippantly applied like paul describes for someone screwing together garden boxes, but the burden of doing clean work with machines and not making it look like it was designed just to be done by machines is something I'm not interested in - and willingly not (but would have to do if I were going to try to make a go at making money making things - unless I was a *very* good marketer or managed to marry a lady physician. The latter seems unlikely given the undesirability of already married me to married physicians).


----------



## John Brown (12 Dec 2021)

Well I guess I need to watch more of Paul Sellers, as I've never noticed him denigrating machine users, or encouraging reckless use if the same. As far as I knew, he was a time-served woodworker. I've no doubt he's quite capable of dimensioning stock by hand. The fact that he apparently doesn't agree with D_W's views on cap irons is of no consequence to me, and probably not to most of the people who watch his stuff. That particular bee doesn't live in my bonnet.
I still think it's ridiculous to drag him into this thread in the first place.


----------



## TheTiddles (12 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> What is amusing is how some people attempt to add content to the topic of discussion and others with the smug attitude set themselves up as above that and instead try to insult and belittle those in the discussion. So To all of you super smart buttocks, why don't you take a long look at yourselves, and get of your high horses and join the discussion. It is really easy to sit back and belittle people. poke fun and be sarcastic, it was fun when I was at school in the 60's And I am sure that I can be as rude and belittling as most, if I chose. this thread is in my opinion an interesting and important discussion which you could maybe add something to. If you cant add anything of value to the conversation, maybe you could just not say anything.


Does someone need a hug?


----------



## hennebury (12 Dec 2021)

This about sums it up!


----------



## TRITON (12 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Apparently the yanks do get a lot of TS accidents, which is all you need to know! Haven't actually looked up the figures myself.


30,000 Plus accidents per annum, involving 4000 amputations. These will likely be fingers and thumbs, the occasional hand. None of which grow back.


----------



## Jacob (12 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> 30,000 Plus accidents per annum, involving 4000 amputations. These will likely be fingers and thumbs, the occasional hand. None of which grow back.


Perhaps it's for the best and they lose a few trigger fingers!
Some woodwork lessons with big circular saws and spindle moulders would be good for this lot: family holding guns - Google Search


----------



## LeeAkeroyd (12 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> Who's a funny moose? Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your reply?
> 
> If everything has been done, what is all of the fuss about?
> Let people post their videos, let whatever happens happen.
> ...



I had sweaty palms watching Alex Honnold.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (12 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> Stupid people will be stupid and happily follow other stupid people because they don't realise they are stupid because they are too stupid to comprehend stupidity, the problem is that some clever people realise they need protection and so have created jobs for stupid people and now we have a lot of stupid rules and regulations because the stupid people think they are clever and we are the stupid people who need protection.



It depends whether you want to laugh at "stupid" people losing fingers/arms/their lives, or whether you'd prefer a bit less misery and lost blood in the world.

I don't like steering assist on cars; I do like crown guards and riving blades. I don't like A&E clogged up with people who wouldn't have been injured if machinery was appropriately guarded.

I see the appeal of being smug when someone gets hurt, but it doesn't push my buttons.


----------



## TheTiddles (12 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> It depends whether you want to laugh at "stupid" people losing fingers/arms/their lives, or whether you'd prefer a bit less misery and lost blood in the world.
> 
> I don't like steering assist on cars; I do like crown guards and riving blades. I don't like A&E clogged up with people who wouldn't have been injured if machinery was appropriately guarded.
> 
> I see the appeal of being smug when someone gets hurt, but it doesn't push my buttons.


And the irony is most “clever” people are smart enough to realise they don’t know everything and think themselves “stupid”, and the “stupid” people are the ones going round labelling people as “stupid” whilst being so themselves, failing to realise how sad it looks to everyone else.

Seems the less someone knows about a subject the quicker they get to the argumentum ad hominem, though that’d be a step up the pyramid for some.

Now, does anyone want that hug or not?


----------



## Spectric (12 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I don't like A&E clogged up with people who wouldn't have been injured if machinery was appropriately guarded.


The guards will not prevent injury to some folk, you would have to remove the blade.
I have seen accidents in the workplace where all the machinery was fully compliant with PUWER yet the operator has tywraped a safety limit switch because they believe it makes the job easier, operators removing or adjusting guards for the same reason and even in highly regulated industries the workers deliberately tampering with safety interlocks because they do not like the process of needing to go here, do this to be able to obtain a key to continue yet the safety system is there for no other reason than keep them alive. So we all need to realise that people will always suffer injury, no mater what industry, what level of training has been delivered or years of experience the person has because it only takes a split second and your life has changed, could be as simple as a silly argument with the missus and at work your mind drifts and for that split second you are not on the ball.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (12 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> The guards will not prevent injury to some folk, you would have to remove the blade.



They have prevented an enormous number of injuries. That they haven't prevented every injury ever is utterly irrelevant.


----------



## John Brown (12 Dec 2021)

hennebury said:


> This about sums it up!
> 
> 
> View attachment 124013
> View attachment 124014


You are 100% right. Your post sums it up so well!


----------



## Bojam (12 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> I'm sorry, if you can't see why the idea that Paul Sellers, who, apart from the occasional use of a cordless drill/driver, uses exclusively hand tools…



And a bandsaw. He has videos and blog posts about bandsaw selection, set up and use.


----------



## Droogs (12 Dec 2021)

Paul Sellars uses machinery for stock prep on the commercial side of his business and says so in many of his videos, his claim is that all the jointing and finishing is by hand. For someone who wants to learn about using hand tools he is a great starting point to see fairly traditional basic techniques. All the other soliquies and lifestyle babble is his own perception of his audience coming through. I enjoy most of his vids but eschew the lifestyle blog and the guff that his daily blurtings spew forth


----------



## D_W (13 Dec 2021)

Droogs said:


> ...
> but eschew the lifestyle blog and the guff that his daily blurtings spew forth



That's part of the reason I give him extra grief. He likes to peddle the nonsense that students in his classes are on the verge of some profitable enterprise while they're making something that would ultimately not draw the cost of materials. 

It's the purest of misleading marketing that he pretends he's against 
His gimmick about not being beholden to tool companies is farce. He'd like you to maximize the dollars going to him instead.


----------



## D_W (13 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> The fact that he apparently doesn't agree with D_W's views on cap irons is of no consequence to me...



That says plenty about where you are and where you're content to stay. Especially if you're referring to someone charging people to learn about hand tools. It's in his interest for you to fail to progress. 

His real expertise is in drawing in people who could get better instruction from free to read public domain texts on the internet.


----------



## D_W (13 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Perhaps it's for the best and they lose a few trigger fingers!
> Some woodwork lessons with big circular saws and spindle moulders would be good for this lot: family holding guns - Google Search



So, you guys are identifying one Canadian (Hintz) and arguing with another (Hennebury - who I believe started life in England) and referring to statistics about saws in the US?

most of those injuries are jobsite injuries, not hobbyist injuries.


----------



## TRITON (13 Dec 2021)

So what you're saying D_M, is chisels made by machine are as good as those made entirely by hand


----------



## Jester129 (13 Dec 2021)

@TheTiddles - Yes please, I'll have that hug, I've read all of this!


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> They have prevented an enormous number of injuries. That they haven't prevented every injury ever is utterly irrelevant.


Perfection is the enemy of the good.


----------



## John Brown (13 Dec 2021)

Bojam said:


> And a bandsaw. He has videos and blog posts about bandsaw selection, set up and use.


I didn't know that. As I said, I've not watched all his output. Consequently I also wasn't aware that he implied that his students were on the verge of riches.
I like a lot of his stuff, but agree that the lifestyle aspect gets tiresome.
My point, and the only reason I was stupid enough to join this playground squabble, is that it's ridiculous to blame him for unsafe power tool usage, and I stick by that.


----------



## TheTiddles (13 Dec 2021)

John Brown said:


> You are 100% right. Your post sums it up so well!


To me it worked on several levels and was almost a reflection of the existential commentary on the human condition, how about you?


----------



## John Brown (13 Dec 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> To me it worked on several levels and was almost a reflection of the existential commentary on the human condition, how about you?


It was good, but I think my snowman maze summed it up more succinctly...


----------



## Lard (13 Dec 2021)

Is there a prize?


----------



## John Brown (13 Dec 2021)

Lard said:


> Is there a prize?
> 
> View attachment 124052


Well done!
I think the sense of smug satisfaction you're feeling right now is reward enough.


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## D_W (13 Dec 2021)

What strikes me here is I never know of Hennebury until 2012. He is a doer, he does. He spends his time figuring out how to do, and then how to do better/faster without dropping quality. 

We live in a world now of smugness where the folks on internet forums who want to know all of the trivial things that will allow them to torpedo someone else - well, spend their time not doing a whole lot or experimenting with much. 

And personalities who cater to beginners are the "doers" of their group. 

It's like an alternate reality. Since there is no real test for results, the smugness can continue. 

What I've noticed in 15 years on the forums is that the folks who actually do, once they're present company, most of the forum population just cannot tolerate the insistence of some personal investment in being a doer, and the fact that doers don't usually get caught up in the nonsense that's pervasive on forums (which guru, which new alloy, etc).


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## Daniel2 (13 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> What strikes me here is I never know of Hennebury until 2012. He is a doer, he does. He spends his time figuring out how to do, and then how to do better/faster without dropping quality.
> 
> We live in a world now of smugness where the folks on internet forums who want to know all of the trivial things that will allow them to torpedo someone else - well, spend their time not doing a whole lot or experimenting with much.
> 
> ...



Perhaps it's that many of us don't spend our time promoting our greatness
on internet forums. We just quietly carry on our lives, doing what we do.


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## D_W (13 Dec 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Perhaps it's that many of us don't spend our time promoting our greatness
> on internet forums. We just quietly carry on our lives, doing what we do.



I think there's a difference between promoting greatness and having thorough discussions about building things. you can't really do the latter in any great detail as you get derailed by folks talking about whether or not something is safe. 

Not contending that the youtuber in the video shown does anything great - he has the "something for nothing" gimmick type channel - It's a huge draw. I doubt he's made anything notable unless picnic tables are notable. 

My point was that I called mark a doer, not "a great" or a "man of greatness". 

The doers quickly tire of forums because inevitably a talk of doing will get bogged down in a combination of "I'd go to paul sellers for that" or "you did something there in that last sequence that should never be shown publicly"

There's a smaller forum in the US that used to be relatively immune from this kind of stuff (the format doesn't draw in beginners). This same type of topic just came up and the original poster went to great lengths to try to generate interest in the table saw topic (strangely, in the hand tool side). AT some point, someone finally spoke up and said "your safety with your saw is your choice, maybe we could move on". 

They weren't advocating unsafe practices - but rather "please - we've heard this one 4000 times already - who wants to post something they're making". 

Ultimately on that forum, things have gone to the folks who want to talk about table saw safety or a new type of crosscut sled. The same thing happened when there was a true great on a blue background forum - he got chased off by people who wanted to make sure that the discussion didn't advance past table saw safety or which online guru was a nicer person.


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## TRITON (13 Dec 2021)

Jester129 said:


> @TheTiddles - Yes please, I'll have that hug, I've read all of this!


I think The Tiddles provides _other_ services


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## Jester129 (14 Dec 2021)

Triton, behave yourself, please!


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## TRITON (14 Dec 2021)




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## Against_The_Grain (16 May 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> As Peter said, it just hasn't happened ... yet.
> 
> That tool me back to my time living in the US (Houston actually) and working professionally in their woodworking shops. Watching that little clip reminded me of some of the crazy and risky things some Americans seem to be addicted to do on their table saws. Slainte.



Because the table saw is a multi-purpose tool that can do anything, clearly!


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## johnnyb (17 May 2022)

I was just going to say the reason that cut didn't go awol was because its plywood. if it was long grain cuts like that look out. end grain moves a lot to.


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## morqthana (16 Jun 2022)

Daniel2 said:


> I'd love some of whatever you're smoking.


Smoking is dangerous.


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## morqthana (16 Jun 2022)




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## morqthana (16 Jun 2022)

But as for the general thrust of safe/unsafe practices (and with the disclaimer that I only read the 1st 4 pages here) - hands up all those who remember watching Fred Dibnah climbing up chimneys, lashing his ladders together as he went?


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## morqthana (16 Jun 2022)

doctor Bob said:


> You tube has been around for years and full of dodgy stuff, everyone knows it's full of dodgy stuff, whether it's mechanics, woodworking, welding, pyrography, wing suit flying etc. I do think people have to have some ownership of their actions.


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## morqthana (17 Jun 2022)

morqthana said:


>



Just noticed I didn't post a link with a starting point. 3:50 - looks a bit iffy to me?

And 5:20


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