# Honing lessons from Westonbirt



## Paul Chapman (30 Aug 2010)

I think Jim was a bit upset with me when I said I couldn't give a list of the tips I picked up from Garrett Hack and John Lloyd at Westonbirt yesterday. Well, in addition to doing a bit of weeding (I hate weeding :evil: ) I've spent some time today in the workshop experimenting with strops, based on what Garrett does.

I use DMT diamond stones and go from the extra fine stone to a leather strop impregnated with Vaseline and jewellers rouge. While I always get a beautifully polished bevel and back, the level of sharpness is variable. Sometimes super-sharp, sometimes less so. I concluded some time ago that the leather strop is sufficiently compressable that it can just slightly round over the edge even if the blade is held perfectly flat.

What Garrett often does is to finish off his blades on a piece of wood (I think he uses Maple) impregnated with diamond paste. He showed me the piece of wood - nothing to write home about, in fact it looked a bit scruffy, but his blades were super-sharp.

I didn't have any diamond paste so I've been experimenting with Solvol Autosol and oil on a piece of quarter-sawn Mahogany planed dead flat. I used it on the blades in my Clifton Anniversary #4 and my old Record #4 fitted with a Clifton blade and cap iron.

The results have been quite impressive - certainly better than I've been getting with the leather strop. I tried them out on a nasty piece of oak where I was previously getting tear-out unless I used the scraper plane. Absolutely no tear-out and a silky smooth, polished finish.

Next on the agenda is to find who stocks oil-based diamond paste because, having seen Garrett's blades, I know I can get mine better.

Anyway, Jim, I hope that was helpful :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## paulm (30 Aug 2010)

Hmmm, interesting Paul :-k 

Wonder if finishing on a spyderco ultra-fine ceramic stone or 8k or 10k waterstone would achieve the same effect ?

Could be worth trying next time you're over if you don't give it a go in the meantime.

Cheers, Paul


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## Paul Chapman (30 Aug 2010)

Dunno. Pete gets very good results with his Spyderco and an 8k or 10k waterstone would give good results I'm sure. I'm looking for something that's quick, easy, cheap and compatible with my diamond stones which I use with oil.

You can get the diamond paste in various grits, so I'd probably look to making three strops so that the jumps between the grits wasn't too great.

I'll keep in touch with my progress.......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Harbo (30 Aug 2010)

Rutlands used to sell a diamond paste sharpening kit consisting of various tubes of diamond paste and mdf boards.

I found the 3M film worked just as well and less messy.

Rod


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## Doug B (30 Aug 2010)

Interesting Paul, you`re just making me wish i`d gone to Westonbirt even more







Doug.


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## Paul Chapman (30 Aug 2010)

There's always next year, Doug........

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## jimi43 (31 Aug 2010)

Hi Paul

Yer darn right...I thought "right...be like that..."!!! :wink: 

Nah...only joshing ya mate....actually I forgot about it after you said that it is a "show it" moment...as I know what you mean but your kindness at taking time to try to explain it is most welcome mate.

As you know, I do like a little "variety" in my sharpening experimentation and I have to admit...I do flit from method to method in search of the elusive "magic" moment!

You have whetted my appetite now...I shall have to try that one!

Cheers mate...

Jim


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## bugbear (31 Aug 2010)

Paul Chapman":28in2vig said:


> I didn't have any diamond paste so I've been experimenting with Solvol Autosol and oil on a piece of quarter-sawn Mahogany planed dead flat. I used it on the blades in my Clifton Anniversary #4 and my old Record #4 fitted with a Clifton blade and cap iron.
> 
> The results have been quite impressive



The question (should one desire a controlled experiment) is where is the magic - the rigid substrate, the diamonds, or the user?

Given the nature of Solvol abrasive, I would expect the edge to be very good - the abrasive is actually rather soft and breaks down in use, thus getting finer.

And finer abrasives give more highly finished edges.

Do you think your issues with using leather were caused by a dubbed edge altering the cutting geometry?

BugBear


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## HeathRobinson (31 Aug 2010)

Hope I don't come across as a wise guy here still being a newbie and all but I took a few notes away from the talks too and Garrett's wooden strop is made of cherry and impregnated with a 1 micron diamond paste. He reckons it equates to about a 12000 grit. 

I got the impression that cherry was chosen because it is close grained. I'm sure maple would be fine as it's also fairly close grained. Unsure about mahogany though. A close grain might make a difference as less diamond paste would get wasted in the valleys of the grain. One might even want to take this a step further and bring the piece of wood that is destined to become your diamond paste strop to a mirror finish, like Garrett demonstrated, before impregnating it with the paste. 

Further to this, if the only advantage of the wooden strop is it being less compressible than a leather strop then surely we ought to skip out the wooden strop and go straight to a glass strop? Another thought is that a lot of people use diamond paste on MDF boards. MDF has a fairly smooth surface, very much like a close grained natural wood. So perhaps the only reason Garrett uses cherry as his strop board is that it was the nearest bit of scrap to hand when he first made it.

My rambling ponderings aside if you would like to see Garrett hone a chisel then FWW has a video up at this link. You'll notice he uses oil stones between the diamond and water stone but in his books he says this is just because he started on oil stones and they are what he is used to. If you can't watch the video then the process goes like this:


Medium to fine DMT diamond stone (red dot) with oil. Bring up a burr on this stone but don't do the back. Leave the burr on the edge otherwise you'll undo all the polishing you've previously supposed to have done to the back of the chisel. 

Medium india oil stone - around 1000 grit - somewhat glazed. Don't do the back on this stone either. Just do the edge.

Hard arkensaw surgical black oil stone - around 5000 grit. You could take wire edge off the back with this one if you wanted to.

Norton 8000 grit waterstone (yellow). For general work (like cutting mortices etc) you might want to stop after this stone. Definitely do the back to take off the wire edge on this stone.

1 micron diamond on a piece of cherry. Garrett thinks this equates to about 12000 grit. Use this for fine work. Use just like a stone. Do the back and the edge.

Apologies for all the edits. Had some trouble getting the list to display correctly.


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## Paul Chapman (31 Aug 2010)

bugbear":3n7oov5s said:


> Paul Chapman":3n7oov5s said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't have any diamond paste so I've been experimenting with Solvol Autosol and oil on a piece of quarter-sawn Mahogany planed dead flat. I used it on the blades in my Clifton Anniversary #4 and my old Record #4 fitted with a Clifton blade and cap iron.
> ...



Hi BugBear,

For some time now I've been concerned about the consistency of my honing. Sometimes the results have been very good, other times not quite so good and I'd concluded that the likely problem was with the leather strop sometimes rounding over the edge and other times not.

However, when I saw Garrett's blades I had one of those lightbulb moments. Even my very good results were not as good as his. Trying to categorise it, I sometimes get *sharp* and sometimes get *very sharp *but Garrett gets *super sharp *:shock: 

As they say, you need to actually see what sharp is in order the know what you are after and at Westonbirt I saw what sharp really is.

I've concluded from this that maybe I'm always getting a little rounding over of the edge, it's just that sometimes it's worse than others. Certainly the results I was getting yesterday were leading me to conclude that my assumptions are probably right. 

I have this big lump of oak where one patch tears out easily. So far I've only been able to plane out the tear-out with my scraper planes and I was going to experiment with back bevels. However, chatting to Garrett about the problem, he was rather dismissive about back bevels. He doesn't rule them out but was more inclined to the view that the problem is often with the sharpness of the blade - which is where you come back to the question of how sharp is sharp? Yesterday, I was able to get rid of the tear-out with my Autosol-honed #4s.

I need to do some more work on this. You might be right about the Solvol Autosol - it might be good enough. Certainly yesterday's results were very encouraging  

I don't do things as scientifically as you but I think I'm getting there  

Thanks for your interest.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (31 Aug 2010)

Paul Chapman":gm8l583y said:


> What Garrett often does is to finish off his blades on a piece of wood (I think he uses Maple) impregnated with diamond paste. He showed me the piece of wood - nothing to write home about, in fact it looked a bit scruffy, but his blades were super-sharp.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul


You'd get a similar result using the finest 3M 1micron (around 8000g) and .3micron (around 24,000g :shock: ) papers on float glass that Matthew sells.
One of the reasons that I changed from Paul's system (DMT stones and a leather strop) to the 3M papers last year. I now use the whole range from the very coarsest to the very finest (as appropriate) for honing blades. The system is very effective for the super hard (RC68) Japanese chisels I now use and ordinary 01 steel (and A2) presents no problems - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (31 Aug 2010)

HeathRobinson":pp45nki4 said:


> My rambling ponderings aside if you would like to see Garrett hone a chisel then FWW has a video up at this link.



Hi Simon,

How are you? Haven't seen you for ages.

Thanks for that link. Good, init  

I don't think I'd use MDF or glass as a substrate. MDF isn't very smooth compared with a piece of planed, close-grain wood. In fact I've read of some experiments with it that have really put me off because of the abrasiveness of the various glues and stuff that are in it. And with glass, I think the honing compound would just slide about - I think you need something like a piece of wood so it will sink in.

However, the best way is always to try things out and see what happens - that's what I'm doing.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Paul Chapman (31 Aug 2010)

woodbloke":18cfuuju said:


> You'd get a similar result using the finest 3M 1micron (around 8000g) and .3micron (around 24,000g :shock: ) papers on float glass that Matthew sells.



Hi Rob,

I've been very tempted to try out those films as I'm sure the results would be excellent (as you've found). The only thing that puts me off is the on-going cost - us old pensioners have to be careful with our money :wink: 

I think a dab of Autosol or diamond paste would get to the same end at far less cost.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## HeathRobinson (31 Aug 2010)

Ello Paul  Seems woodworking for me is a bit of a Winter activity.

With regard to trying things out, it could be interesting to put the results (both the honed edge and the resulting planed wood) under a microscope :lol: Yes this is a tad crazy perhaps, but ... According to the junk mail I received Lidl will be selling a metal bodied microscope with 'barlow' lenses that goes to 1280x magnification for £39.99. From the picture it appears to attach to a computer (though no promises in that department). It could be quite interesting to see much more clearly what the results of our efforts are and give us confidence that we're not just feeling around in the dark.

There is this website of another woodworker who's done this but I've never tried it myself.


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## Paul Chapman (31 Aug 2010)

HeathRobinson":2efq5657 said:


> There is this website of another woodworker who's done this but I've never tried it myself.



Yes, I've seen that before. All a bit too academic for me. I think the real test is what happens when you plane a piece of wood when you're making stuff - do you get the results you want or don't you.........

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## HeathRobinson (31 Aug 2010)

OK, please let us know how your experimenting goes because, for the same reasons as you, I'd like to try it out. Lapping film seems like it would be very expensive in the long run.


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## woodbloke (31 Aug 2010)

Paul Chapman":zebmzcd7 said:


> woodbloke":zebmzcd7 said:
> 
> 
> > You'd get a similar result using the finest 3M 1micron (around 8000g) and .3micron (around 24,000g :shock: ) papers on float glass that Matthew sells.
> ...



Paul, the 'ongoing' cost is a bit of a fallacy in point of fact. I put new sheets on my glass two weeks before the Bash on the the 24th July last month...and they're still fine to use. Yes they do wear gradually, but they can still be used (The bigger and more annoying issue is that they tear, but even so, they can still be used)
One sheet of 30micron is lets say £2.00. It is then cut into four strips 70mm wide and each strip with fairly heavy use will last at least a couple of months (turning the glass plate round and using the other end) so one complete sheet is going to last the best part of a year. So a set of three (30, 10 and 1 micron) is going to cost you roughly £6 for the year! (more of course if you use a greater selection of papers as I do)

Does Mike Hudson know you're a pensioner? :wink: :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (31 Aug 2010)

woodbloke":38zrz7y3 said:


> Does Mike Hudson know you're a pensioner? :wink: :lol: :lol:



He'll probably enjoy his retirement because he's got most of my money :shock: :shock:  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (31 Aug 2010)

When people are quoting grit sizes in this thread, I'm not sure what scale they're using.

Here's a cross reference that may reduce some of the ambiguity in future.

http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/grits.htm

BugBear


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## woodbloke (31 Aug 2010)

When I spoke to Matthew at the Bash about this, he confirmed to me that .3micron was around 24,000g. His wife Adrienne had done a little investigative work on the subject and published her findings on the WH blog. .3micron paper is so fine that it's impossible to feel the abrasive on the surface - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (31 Aug 2010)

Thanks, BugBear, that's very helpful  

I see they list Tormek honing compound at 3 microns. Any idea what Solvol Autosol would work out at - about the same or maybe a little finer I would think :-k 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (31 Aug 2010)

With luck Jeff Gorman may wander by with his experiences - he's been using Autosol on glass for the final edge for some years now.

iirc, Garrett Hack used to put the diamond paste on the black Arkansas stone. It's interesting that he's stopped doing that, 'cos I for one did wonder about how exactly that worked when everyone gets their knickers in a twist trying to keep different grits separate. And 1 micron? I've got a syringe of 0.25 around here someplace, if we're talking sharpening to extremes...


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## Paul Chapman (31 Aug 2010)

Alf":1mfoi5uk said:


> I've got a syringe of 0.25 around here someplace, if we're talking sharpening to extremes...



I can see this getting quite competitive........ :lol:


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## Alf (31 Aug 2010)

Cripes, no. I'm strictly a "sharp as it needs to be" kinda gal. The big guns (or rather the small microns) only get brought out if absolutely necessary. Can't be doing with the faffing about; all the faffing quota's required for doing the actually woodworking. :lol:


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## bugbear (31 Aug 2010)

Paul Chapman":3dahrb5j said:


> Thanks, BugBear, that's very helpful
> 
> I see they list Tormek honing compound at 3 microns. Any idea what Solvol Autosol would work out at - about the same or maybe a little finer I would think :-k



Since the particles are soft and designed to break down with use, I'm not sure what "size" even means for Solvol!

And (as that site indicates) particle shape affects sharpening properties as well as particle size.

Hence the separate "speed of sharpening" chart.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (31 Aug 2010)

I posted this a while back but to avoid confusion between grits (US/UK) and Mesh (3M) etc....this covers it all:







These deliberations are totally for scientific purposes...Alf...I'm with you on practical sharpening...but...I do like the physics of the topic...

Jim


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (31 Aug 2010)

A while back I compared .5 micron Veritas green rouge and .5 micron oil-based diamond paste on leather strops.

_Stropping with Green Rouge verses Diamond Paste_: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Stroppingwithgreenrougeversesdiamondpaste.html

I preferred the green rouge. Still do.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Doug B (31 Aug 2010)

Interesting reading chaps.

I`ve recently moved away from the 3M film, tired of having to "pussy cat foot" around the finer sheets as they tear so easily.

I`ve been using different types of car paint cutting pastes, with good results, it`s surprising the amount of different makes & grades there are, luckily a friend owns a re-spray shop, so am getting a good supply.

I`ll be digging some old cherry out tomorrow & giving some paste a try on that.


Doug.


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## Paul Chapman (31 Aug 2010)

Doug B":3caw13bz said:


> I`ll be digging some old cherry out tomorrow & giving some paste a try on that.



Let's know how you get on with it, Doug.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (1 Sep 2010)

Doug B":3tvdkqyt said:


> Interesting reading chaps.
> 
> I`ve recently moved away from the 3M film, tired of having to "pussy cat foot" around the finer sheets as they tear so easily.
> 
> ...



I'd have though a respray shop would also be an excellent source of fine SiC!

I've never found tearing film or sheet a problem if they're glued down and you use a jig.

IME Freehanding causes tearing, when you use sheet abrasives.

BugBear


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## bugbear (1 Sep 2010)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> A while back I compared .5 micron Veritas green rouge and .5 micron oil-based diamond paste on leather strops.
> 
> _Stropping with Green Rouge verses Diamond Paste_: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Stroppingwithgreenrougeversesdiamondpaste.html



typo alert:

you've got "scrap away" instead of "scrape away"

BugBear


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## woodbloke (1 Sep 2010)

bugbear":n9n9zp6s said:


> I've never found tearing film or sheet a problem if they're glued down and you use a jig.
> 
> IME Freehanding causes tearing, when you use sheet abrasives.
> 
> BugBear


Unfortunately, even with a jig and very careful use, the very finest 3M papers will tear. It's irritating :x to say the least, but just something you get used to. Even when they tear, the paper can still be used effectively - Rob


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## bugbear (1 Sep 2010)

woodbloke":2evzv50o said:


> bugbear":2evzv50o said:
> 
> 
> > I've never found tearing film or sheet a problem if they're glued down and you use a jig.
> ...



Urgle. I stand better informed. The thinnest paper I've ever used was 2500 grit Oakley SiC, and *that* was fine.

BugBear


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## Jacob (1 Sep 2010)

HeathRobinson":23s4xif3 said:


> OK, please let us know how your experimenting goes because, for the same reasons as you, I'd like to try it out. Lapping film seems like it would be very expensive in the long run.


I've got several old oil-stones. Either freebies or car boot. Total cost about £10 (can't remember it was years ago). They will last a lifetime or longer.
They sharpen all my chisels and planes including A2 steel, freehand, quickly and effectively.
I don't know why everybody effs about with all the modern crazy sharpening methods. I did try jigs etc for years but my sharpening got better and easier as soon as I gave them up.


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## Paul Chapman (1 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":2c398t28 said:


> I've got several old oil-stones. Either freebies or car boot. Total cost about £10 (can't remember it was years ago). They will last a lifetime or longer.



Yes, we know, Jacob. You've mentioned it several times before........ :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (1 Sep 2010)

I wasn't go to say anything :-# - Rob


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## Alf (1 Sep 2010)

You two billy goats gruff there; step away from the bridge. No trip-trapping. [-X 

Is it only me who sees a fundamental problem with "Green Rouge" as a term? :? Anyway, I can well see that it'd be preferred on a strop - diamonds work better with a harder substrate. I imagine they'd tend to sink too far into leather from even the toughest horse's butt.


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## bugbear (1 Sep 2010)

Alf":3spz5n9z said:


> You two billy goats gruff there; step away from the bridge. No trip-trapping. [-X
> 
> Is it only me who sees a fundamental problem with "Green Rouge" as a term?



"rouge" is iron(iii) oxide, not "strop material" or "polishing compound". Hence. you cannot have green rouge, since rouge is (as one might expect) red.

The green stuff is chromium oxide, for those taking notes.

BugBear


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## Jacob (1 Sep 2010)

Paul Chapman":2e3mavh6 said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":2e3mavh6 said:
> 
> 
> > I've got several old oil-stones. Either freebies or car boot. Total cost about £10 (can't remember it was years ago). They will last a lifetime or longer.
> ...


I know, I know :roll: - but there are newbies coming along all the time, who may not realise that crazy sharpening is not the only way.

PS I thought this was good for a laugh. It's called "sharpening made easy" but should really be called "sharpening goes mad in the country" :lol: :lol: 
I'd advise any newbies not to look at this site except on a "need to know" basis - probably never.

PPS is there another term for "newbie"? I find it irritating; a bit like "simples" which is even worse. "Beginner" I suppose.


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## Alf (1 Sep 2010)

bugbear":17zx1vgr said:


> Alf":17zx1vgr said:
> 
> 
> > Is it only me who sees a fundamental problem with "Green Rouge" as a term?
> ...


Not just me then. I think.

Jacob, a selection of possibilities: neophyte, novice, tyro, fledgling, tenderfoot, rookie, greenhorn


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## jimi43 (2 Sep 2010)

There is a fundamental problem here...in that the physics/chemistry(?)/engineering of sharpening cannot in and by itself be seen as a topic of interest.

It is true that wood workers might (justifiably(?)) say "if it is sharp enough for the job...the job is done".

BUT....some of us find the whole aspect of "sharpening" interesting and like to dabble with the various techniques purely out of in(s)ane :wink: curiosity.

Therefore...various techniques from oil to waterstones, papers and films, Tormeks and Worksharps....are all valid in our minds and should be tested to see how they perform.

The end product is the sharpest edge "because it is" not because of what it can do. I believe this is a valid topic for discussion in its own right.

Well that's my view for what it's worth and I'm sticking to it!  

Jim


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## Paul Chapman (2 Sep 2010)

jimi43":183xn1kz said:


> The end product is the sharpest edge "because it is" not because of what it can do.



Well, for me it's about *what it can do *- which is why I started this thread.

I was about to experiment with back bevels for those occasions when I was getting tear-out and I wanted to use an ordinary plane rather than a scraper plane.

However, having spoken to Garrett Hack, seen how he sharpens his blades, listened to his presentation and seen the results he is able to get, I realised that the first thing I needed to do was to get sharper edges on my blades. A further issue was that I had been concerned for some time that my use of a leather strop might have been causing some rounding of the edges.

I have no problem with those who want to try out different techniques for their own sake but, as I say, I started this thread to deal with a specific issue from a user point of view.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Sep 2010)

bugbear":xdiy063q said:


> Alf":xdiy063q said:
> 
> 
> > You two billy goats gruff there; step away from the bridge. No trip-trapping. [-X
> ...



BB

I think you missed the point. "Rouge" means "red" in French, hence "green rouge" is impossible. 

Nevertheless, "rouge" has come to refer to polishing compounds in more modern times, which these are regardless of chemical formulation. Thus one can speak (write) of the green (and many other colours) compound as a rouge. LV do not call refer to theirs as such, however, prefering "honing compound".

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (2 Sep 2010)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> bugbear":hgbb4p51 said:
> 
> 
> > Alf":hgbb4p51 said:
> ...



Au contraire - I got the point, and mentioned it (perhaps too subtly) in passing:

I said: *since rouge is (as one might expect) red*

I'm also not sure I agree with your assertion that rouge has become a umbrella term for polishing compound.

BugBear


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## GazPal (2 Sep 2010)

bugbear":1cxewom0 said:


> Au contraire - I got the point, and mentioned it (perhaps too subtly) in passing:
> 
> I said: *since rouge is (as one might expect) red*
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more and also go the point the first time round.  

Jeweller's rouge is where the term originated and while other polishing/cutting/honing compounds tend to be called rouge, they're not as they lack iron oxide in their makeup and colouration. Rouge has become yet another bastardised term among many over the years. I suppose a little like misnaming Cabinet pattern as London pattern in the world of screwdrivers, or Philadelphia pattern against London pattern in the world of bricklaying trowels. :?


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## jimi43 (2 Sep 2010)

> I have no problem with those who want to try out different techniques for their own sake but, as I say, I started this thread to deal with a specific issue from a user point of view.



Well thank you Paul! 8) :wink: 

Now...to try out yet another method of getting an edge and thanks for annotating it so clearly from the lecture. 

So...back on topic...this Solvol Autosol...is it the paste or liquid in a tin that you are using with oil or doesn't it matter.

I ask because I happen to have both...

Jim


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## Paul Chapman (2 Sep 2010)

jimi43":17lm0zki said:


> this Solvol Autosol...is it the paste or liquid in a tin that you are using with oil or doesn't it matter.



Hi Jim,

I've only ever bought it in a tube, which is the paste. Didn't know that they did it in a liquid form. I think using it in a paste form would be best.

Initially, I use it on it's own. But then when it dries out on the wood, you can sort of reactivate it with oil. The oil also helps to stop it building up too much on the wood. If your piece of wood is nice and flat, you only need a very small amount of Autosol for it to do the job.

If you look at that video clip of Garrett Hack sharpening a chisel, you'll see that in the final stage where he uses the diamond paste on a piece of wood, he just puts a few drops of oil on the strop. I'm doing it the same way.

This is yet another plus point about the method. It's fast; the wood costs nothing; and the amount of Solvol Autosol or diamond paste that you need to use is negligible  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## MIGNAL (2 Sep 2010)

Tried the Autosol, the 'green rouge', the leather strop, the hardwood block. Much prefer the hardwood block with the 'green rouge'.


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## Paul Chapman (2 Sep 2010)

MIGNAL":2rgicsf3 said:


> Tried the Autosol, the 'green rouge', the leather strop, the hardwood block. Much prefer the hardwood block with the 'green rouge'.



Thanks for that, MIGNAL. I used to use jewellers rouge with my leather strop. One of the things I was planning to do was to try that out on the wooden block and see how it compares.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (2 Sep 2010)

I'm quite in to Solvol Autosol (export grade) with rouge, a pickled onion and a shot of Jameson's (shaken not stirred).


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## MIGNAL (3 Sep 2010)

Paul Chapman":gf5o2iq0 said:


> MIGNAL":gf5o2iq0 said:
> 
> 
> > Tried the Autosol, the 'green rouge', the leather strop, the hardwood block. Much prefer the hardwood block with the 'green rouge'.
> ...



I think you will find an improvement or at least more consistent results. It's all too easy to round over an edge when using leather, even if you use light pressure. I started with using a hardwood block, tried a leather strop and have now moved back to using the hardwood block.


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## Paul Chapman (4 Sep 2010)

Just a quick update.

I've been sharpening up a few of my blades using the wooden strop with Solvol Autosol and 3-in-1 oil. Here it is







I've been honing on the green extra-fine DMT stone then straight to the strop.

As a test piece I've been using this piece of oak. 






Up until now, this section of the wood has suffered bad tear-out which I've only been able to plane out with a scraper plane






However, with my new honing method using the wooden rather than leather strop, I've been able to plane the piece without any tear-out and leaving a very smooth, polished finish  

I've used a variety of planes, Clifton #4, #6 and #7 and Record #4 and #5 with Clifton blades and cap irons (which are all bevel-down planes) and a Lie Nielsen #9 and a Veritas low-angle block plane (which are bevel-up). With all those planes, I was able to achieve equally good results.

My conclusion is that when using a leather strop, I was getting beautifully polished blades but the compressibility of the leather was causing a rounding over of the edges. With the wooden strop I'm getting much sharper edges because there is no rounding over.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Modernist (4 Sep 2010)

Interesting thread. I think there clearly is a danger of rounding with leather and especially when used directly on the Tormek, which I avoid. 

On your subject of focussing on the outcome, I have been achieving much better results since changing to high angle bevel up as opposed to a scraper plane. IMO this favours the more wear resistant A2 blades so the issue for me is how to get the best 45 deg edge on A2. Adding an 8000 grit Cerax stone recently has certainly moved things forwards when used after the 6000 King I already had and it seems logical to move to paste on wood or glass for the final stage. Clearly wood will hold more paste and glass will be flatter and harder.

Whilst Solvol may be the best final polishing compound as it breaks down as stated it is slow and a diamond paste is more consistent in it's action. Although I do not use it now at one stage in my varied career I spent time boring and honing engine cylinders with hard steel cutters and had a range of diamond honing pastes used against a rotating ground steel plate like a lap and a guide like a tormek gouge jig to follow the profile of the tool. 

Clearly then in engineering circles the harder lapping plate is the norm. (No pun intended  ) and I expect oil based diamond pastes should be available from the Cromwells of the world.


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## Paul Chapman (4 Sep 2010)

Modernist":1nxn1jie said:


> the issue for me is how to get the best 45 deg edge on A2. Adding an 8000 grit Cerax stone recently has certainly moved things forwards when used after the 6000 King I already had and it seems logical to move to paste on wood or glass for the final stage.



I'd be interested to hear, in due course, how you get on, Brian.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Karl (4 Sep 2010)

Interesting thread Paul.

I've used Autosol succesfully on a scrap of MDF. Excellent results but I found the Autosol was too easily moved around the MDF. Perhaps a bit of solid wood would "hold" it better?

Cheers

Karl


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## Paul Chapman (4 Sep 2010)

Karl":2kcx0pzf said:


> I've used Autosol succesfully on a scrap of MDF. Excellent results but I found the Autosol was too easily moved around the MDF. Perhaps a bit of solid wood would "hold" it better?



Hi Karl. Various bits and pieces that I've read suggest that MDF is not the best substrate for honing. Apparently it can cause scratching which somewhat defeats the object. Those that have used it and then tried solid wood tend not to go back to MDF.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (5 Sep 2010)

As I said much earlier, I get similar results with the very fine 3M lapping papers on 10mm thick plate glass. 
As always, _horses for courses_...as long as each individual gets there in the end. 

Paul - it would be interesting now to try that edge on the WfH which is a test of any blade...I can plane it (just) at 50deg effective pitch on my LV BU smoother - Rob


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## jimi43 (5 Sep 2010)

Yes indeed...very interesting results and huge thanks for the test pictures.

Rob...I agree...having bought the 3M films from Matt I have amazing results and would recommend this method over the waterstones.

I am interested to see how the Autosol works though...will try soon and compare.

Cheers guys...very interesting indeed!

Jim


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## Paul Chapman (5 Sep 2010)

woodbloke":11vx01x4 said:


> As I said much earlier, I get similar results with the very fine 3M lapping papers on 10mm thick plate glass.
> As always, _horses for courses_...as long as each individual gets there in the end.



You're absolutely correct, Rob. There are several ways of getting to super-sharp. Paste and a block of wood is just one of the several methods.

What I'm particularly interested in at the moment are the various ways of dealing with tear-out. It seems to me there are three:

1. A super-sharp blade at "normal" honing angles

2. A steeper effective pitch by honing a steeper angle on a bevel-up plane or a back bevel on a bevel-down plane

3. A scraper plane

For the most difficult grain, a scraper plane will almost always work in my experience. But there are times when one would rather use a normal plane. For that reason, I think it is worth exploring what is possible.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (6 Sep 2010)

Karl":2uujm638 said:


> ...I found the Autosol was too easily moved around the MDF.



If that's an issue, I would suggest that you're using too much paste.

BugBear


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## Harbo (8 Sep 2010)

Paul - I have only tried the diamond paste on MDF, not real wood - how do you ensure the wood is flat and doesn't the grain have an effect?
Hard areas, softer areas?

The one thing about 3M films on glass is that they are flat and uniform?

Rod (who will give the paste on wood a try).


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## MIGNAL (8 Sep 2010)

I think the trick is to constantly move across the width of the wood that contains the honing compound. Kind of averaging it out.
I did a little experiment today. Normally I hollow grind on a hand crank (100 G) and go straight to a micro bevel on an 8,000 G waterstone, then on to the honing board. I swapped the waterstone for some 1200G s.c. paper - the finest sheet I had to hand, followed by the honing board. The result was a super sharp blade. Planed figured Maple wonderfully.


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## Paul Chapman (9 Sep 2010)

Harbo":36kbkzvv said:


> Paul - I have only tried the diamond paste on MDF, not real wood - how do you ensure the wood is flat and doesn't the grain have an effect?



Just choose a piece of quarter-sawn wood and plane it flat. It shouldn't move much but if it does, it's simple enough to plane a fresh surface. I doubt that the grain would be an issue. Give it a go and see what you think.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2011)

Oil stones for me. My only innovation is to clean them up occasionally with a quick pass of a Diapad. They are a bit pricey but last forever.


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