# HSS cutting tips and turning tool making?



## mike s (4 May 2011)

im looking to get some hss (or carbide) cutting tips for a homemade tool but everywhere i have looked they are around £10 each
does anyone know of a place i can get them cheaper?



for anyone with metalworking lathes, what tips do you use? every now and then i see the cutting block thingies (i know nothing about metal lathes) at a car boot sale and im considering picking one up cheap and take the tip off that....?

thanks


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## Shay Vings (5 May 2011)

I use Chronos. Min order £10. HSS blanks are square section max length 4 inch but a phone call may discover longer pieces?


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## jasonB (5 May 2011)

You could probably use a carbide inset from an indexable tool, the problem is they would need support near teh edge so you may get clearance problems when used fopr boring. The tips can be picked up on e-bay for about £1 each. The chronos site will show some indexable tooling, look at the Glanze section.

Another option if you want a scraper profile would be to grind up an old HSS planer knife.


Or as Shay says round and square HSS tool blanks are cheap enough for making tools like this

Jason


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## CHJ (5 May 2011)

As everyone else I would go to Chronos. or maybe one of the other suppliers on my list

I always pick up a selection whenever I visit a model engineering show, postage costs saved cover show entry. Another place I've picked them up is at Penny Farthing Tools in Salisbury, maybe a copper or two dearer but still in single figures.


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## mike s (5 May 2011)

thanks 
i want to make a tool similar to the easy hollower http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/208021 ... wer-5.aspx
i will make the body of the tool with nothing-special-steel and i will tip it with these tips maybe?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SPARE-TIPS-INDEXA ... 3a51f60951

they are only small so will only take small cuts but thats fine, i dont rush when turning anyway

does that sound ok? 


thanks jason for telling me what to search on ebay
just the thing i was after and a good price also
no round ones though :/


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## CHJ (5 May 2011)

mike s":1d3baye2 said:


> .....does that sound ok?


 Not really IMO.


mike s":1d3baye2 said:


> .....i will make the body of the tool with nothing-special-steel


Made to small enough dimensions to accommodate those tips, the steel used is going to have to be better than "nothing-special-steel"


mike s":1d3baye2 said:


> ..... and i will tip it with these tips maybe?
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SPARE-TIPS-INDEXA ... 3a51f60951


Not what I would consider for hollowing, at worst you will have a thread like vee cut, at best you will have sharp edged 9mm wide flats dependant on how you locate the insert, both of which will be difficult to blend, far better to get round inserts.


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## SVB (5 May 2011)

I had throught about this and dismissed it as the geometry of tips for metal cutting and wood cutting are radically different therefore I assumed torn grain and plenty of it would be the outcome. 

Comparing a rollly or hunter carbide cutter with any metal cutting carbide tip shows great difference with the timber application having a sharp edge (20 deg ish) and the metal application near 70 deg.

Perhaps for a long life scraper but not sure worth the effort for that?

Therefore I did not follow this any further. 

Just my thoughts,
Simon


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## jasonB (5 May 2011)

Could be OK...

Depending on how you make the holder it could be out of any metal you had, if you look at the scraper in the pic I linked to earlier you will see that the end of the shank has been reduced in dia, this keeps the shank stiff but gives clearance below the tip. The other alternative is to machine a recess into the end of the shank to take the tip, this way you could easily mount them on a 12mm or larger shank but would loose the ability to mount the tip at different angles

The triangular ones will remove wood quickly but will not be ideal for smooth contors, if you look at the specs for the tips the 2nd pair numbers after the letters signify the tip radius, higher the number greater the radius though a triangle will always be a bit coarse. The only thing it will give a smooth finish on would be say the straight side of a box if one edge of the triangle were set almost along the lathe axis.

A better choice would be a round tip, these are on e-bay search for RCMT or RNMG with a the first two digits of 12, 15, 18 these would be 12, 15 or 18mm dia.

The other thing to watch with these swan neck tools is they wand top rotate downwards with the cutting load, thats why the one you show has a square or rectangular shank.
J


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## CHJ (5 May 2011)

These tips will cut far better than metal working inserts.

Ci0 Accessories For the Ci0: Ci0 Round Carbide Cutter 






There is a penalty though, $17.99 ea


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## mike s (5 May 2011)

i cant find any round tips for the money i want to pay (im a tight git)
i guess i will just have to pay out and take a risk making a tool that might not work out

for the shank of the tool i have two ideas

1) use 6mm thick 1" wide mild steel
- easy to work but not very strong

2) an old high carbon steel 1" sorby skew that wont hold an edge long enough to turn with
- hard to work but stronger

i think the mild steel would vibrate quite a bit.... but then the high carbon steel might too


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## mike s (5 May 2011)

is it possible to grind carbide?
you say the angle of the metalworking tips is not right, maybe i could regrind it to the desired angle?

it could be worth the effort if i save £10


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## CHJ (5 May 2011)

mike s":3aid8q7x said:


> is it possible to grind carbide?
> ....



Yes if you have a Grinder fitted with a Green Grit grinding wheel, I personally have not managed to get a sharp enough edge for wood cutting on a metal cutting carbide tool.

The Ci1 tips I have, I clean up with a diamond card.


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## mike s (5 May 2011)

ok i will scrap this idea
i will wait until i get enough pocket money to buy a proper hollowing tool

thanks for the help and warnings


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## CHJ (5 May 2011)

Mike, why don't you have a go at making an Oland Tool.
You can use 3/16" square or round HSS stock for cutter.


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## mike s (5 May 2011)

thats the second tool i was going to make 
heres the plan, i hope it sounds right to you more experienced craftmen
get an old blunt hss drill bit (im choosing 9mm because thats the only one thats blunt)
i will cut the shank off it (the round bit at the top with no flutes that the chuck holds, not sure if its called the shank or not)
thats about 1 1/4" long for me. thats my hss cutter
drill a hole in a mild steel straight or at an angle
tap a set screw to hold the cutter in
make a handle for it
sharpen the cutter like a scraper
about 24" total length
tool done

i could even find a way to bend the bar into a swan neck shape and make that into a hollowing tool...?

sound right?


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## NetBlindPaul (5 May 2011)

mike s,
You will find the shank of a twist drill is not as hard as the flute area it is more tough than hard as it is not designed to cut.


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## mike s (5 May 2011)

:/ poo


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## CHJ (5 May 2011)

Mike, somewhere on the net is an oland tool bit made out of the front end of a small HSS twist drill. The secret is in the way the cutting flute and web backing is ground to form a very effective cutting tool without undue grab.


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## NetBlindPaul (5 May 2011)

Better shout CHJ I think.
The flute area will be nice and hard and will even have some read made clearance angles in it for you.

By the way IIRC there was a question earlier in the thread about grinding tungsten carbide tips.
A silicon carbide wheel as suggested, this is a very rough solution, not rough as in a bodge but rough as in coarse.
A better wheel would be one of cubic boron nitride cbn it is the material used to grind tct saw tips.
VERY expensive, but VERY long lasting.


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## mike s (5 May 2011)

chas, do you mean something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyN-RZOPB4M

and thanks for the info paul


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## CHJ (5 May 2011)

Yes that's the animal.


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## mike s (5 May 2011)

another one to try


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## Silverbirch (5 May 2011)

I`ve just finished making a set of hollowing tools, scraper style, with rectangular section HSS tips epoxied into 1/2" round tool steel shafts. I largely followed the instructions in David Ellsworth`s book. I`ve yet to try them out, but they`re sort of MK2 versions of some I made previously, so I expect them to work OK, perhaps with a bit of tweaking. I`ll post a pic tomorrow.
I think making and using your own tools can teach you quite a lot and should make you more aware of what to look for if and when you decide to buy commercial ones. 

Ian


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## NetBlindPaul (5 May 2011)

Silverbirch,
By the way you can braze (braze weld) or silver solder tool steel quite successfully if careful.
The epoxy will be flexible and "may" allow the tip to vibrate giving you chatter, it also may not, it may improve things by acting as a damper!


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## mike s (6 May 2011)

silverbirch, where did you get the hss cutters from?


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## jasonB (6 May 2011)

Round, square & hex HSS

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue ... l-Toolbits

Old centre drills make good tooling

J


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## mike s (6 May 2011)

thanks for the link jason
the round cutters i can hold in a drilled hole, how would you hold a square section?


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## jasonB (6 May 2011)

Square hole  

If you are not set up with a square broach then just drill a hole to the corner to corner size of the square toolbit and the grub screw will keep it from rotating.

J


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## Silverbirch (6 May 2011)

Hi Mike,
These are the homemade hollowers which I`ve just finished making, which I mentioned in an earlier post. 
13" X1/2" silver steel shafts(Ebay), copper plumbing fittings for ferrules, 3 HSS tips ground from a single rectangular piece similar to those in Jason`s link above (I got mine from the Ashley Iles stand at a show.) 
Holes bored in the shafts with a cobalt drill, fixed in place with epoxy.
The bent tool was heated with a butane torch and bent in a vice (hard work!) 
I`ve just tried them out briefly today on some scrap. The hooked version chatters a bit, possibly due to the toolrest overhang necessary to clear the bent section and the length of the tip which is perhaps a bit too long. Perhaps also, as Paul suggests, the epoxy allows a little flex. The other two tools seem to perform well and leave a good finish. An advantage of an epoxy fixing over brazing is that the join can be softened by heating to allow removal of the tips should this be necessary. Another advantage for me, is that I don`t have the equipment or the know how for brazing.  
If you were going to make tools like this, I`d suggest grinding the tips to final shape before fixing in the shaft. It`s much easier to control the operation that way. Sharpening thereafter will be by hand with a diamond file.
Total cost all in for the three tools including timber for the handles was about £30, so well worth a shot, I think.

Hope this is of some help,


Ian


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## mike s (6 May 2011)

im going to buy 4" long 1/4" square bar and 4" long 1/4" round bar from the link jason gave
have you had any problems from this company? roughly how long is the postage?
tomorrow im going to the scrap metal place and getting 2 meters of 1/2" mild steel round bar 
i will pretty much copy silverbirch's shapes (sorry) and keep the leftover materials for other tools in the future
if necessary i will heat the mild steel until cherry and quench it in water to harden it (that will work, right?)

im looking forward to making useful tools that will save me £

thanks everyone for all the tips and suggestions


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## CHJ (6 May 2011)

mike s":s1l2lw57 said:


> .....i will heat the mild steel until cherry and quench it in water to harden it (that will work, right?)...



No it won't. you cannot harden the average Mild Steel by heating and quenching, it's carbon content is too low.
It has to be case hardened by exposing it to a high carbon content substance while heated to cherry red so that it absorbs more carbon in the surface, this then when quenched will provide a harder skin.

EN8M and above steel can be hardened,but I doubt that a local scrap yard will have any idea as to specification of their holdings.

Re sizes, HSS, 3/16" would be a better size and give you more thread room for fixing grub screw.
Mild Steel Bar 5/8" dia or square will give you more rigidity and should not need hardening.


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## jasonB (7 May 2011)

ARC are good should be next day del.

As said you can't harden MS and even if you could it would then be brittle and need tempering which would be difficult over a long length to do evenly.

You could always drill slightly off centre to give more thread depth for the grub screw. The advantage of using grub screws over epoxy is you can easily change bits from one that is ground with a rounded end, to a straight, to a pointed etc.

Best way to cut the HSS into say 1" lengths is a dremel cut off wheel.


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## mike s (7 May 2011)

i posted a WIP of the hollowing tool i have made
thanks again for all the help

post582049.html#p582049


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