# Kell No 3 honing guide - worth it??



## Harlequin (5 Sep 2010)

I know that on here there are many who swear by this and others equally who differ but FWIW here are my views.
I ordered the guide recently which was delivered about 5 days ago - came with a set of "hand written" instructions(photocopy!!)
It looks very well done and exudes precision.
Heres the problem though - I still have not used it.
Normally with most buys I have a go immediately to cure the "itch" and have a fair idea of the validity of the purchase - but not this one.
Made a wedge for it 2 days later - somehow the thrill was off.
Today however I wanted to sharpen my LN 3mm chisel - hang on you got to make another special wedge :evil: 
In fact if one wished to maintain the spirit of the invention (precision/horologist level etc) it is desirable to make a special wedge for different sized chisels.
If you wanted to sharpen a skew blade - you got it - another wedge type standoff.
It would also be a good idea to make some "standoffs" from the reference pins for small chisels - what to use here wood ?? acrylic is better ,how thick ? - check he web ,order stuff etc.
Lets have a look at the "hand written instructions" again ???

Let me check how it feels on the diamond stones says I - hang on , Forgot I had to make something to house them in so the guide wheels can run alongside.

How does one achieve the right angle ? you measure the overhang with a ruler or make another jig (for skew blades you will need another ofcourse)

Faff !

I realise now why I haven't sharpened anything so far.  

I agree the Kell No 3 is an excellent example of precision metal working but the true cost of this guide must include not only the guide but the materials and time (sometimes frustration) required to source and create them to even start using the guide.
I admit it is an opportunity to help the user personalise his guide but to me it looks more like selling only half the kit .
The true cost factoring all of these would exceed £80-100 methinks - this for a subtle increase in accuracy of the edge - not worth it IMO especially when all you wanted to do in the first place was get on with cutting wood which is where the pleasure lies -for me anyway.

Sorry all - had to get that off my chest


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## Saint Simon (5 Sep 2010)

My experience exactly Harlequin. Gave up after a couple of weeks of trying to get to grips with it. If anyone wants to try before they buy I am very willing to lend/sell mine.
Simon
ps after a little instruction by John Lloyd I gained the confidence to do it free-hand and couldn't be happier.


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## woodbloke (5 Sep 2010)

Harlequin":35upawf5 said:


> I know that on here there are many who swear by this and others equally who differ but FWIW here are my views.
> I ordered the guide recently which was delivered about 5 days ago - came with a set of "hand written" instructions(photocopy!!)
> It looks very well done and exudes precision.
> Heres the problem though - I still have not used it.
> ...



Yup, it's a precision piece of kit and you're dead right...you need to make a series of wedges for individual, or groups of sizes of blades. How difficult is it though?..once you know the slope of the wedge (given in the instructions) it's a 10 minute job to make one, so it's not hard.
However, you do need to use it with a series of projection boards:







and adaptors for different blades. The pic above shows a shoulder plane blade being set at the correct angle, using the relevant board and an acrylic insert. Moreover, the shoulder plane blade will be honed absolutely *dead* square, which is difficult to achieve with other guides ('specially ones with a single central roller) The pic below shows a similar application for:






honing a skew chisel...note in each of the pics a different sized wedge.

Using the Kell III is a big mistake with diamond or waterstones IMO...you need a surface to hone on where the wheels are level with the honing surface and for this the 3M papers:






from Workshop Heaven are ideal. They last a *long* time and aren't expensive either.
When I first used mine I was a bit stumped at how to hone 45deg as it can't be done normally, but the solution is easy:






make up a little sled that raises the wheels by 6mm and just slide it across each honing surface in turn.

The 3M papers and the KIII make a fantastic combination if you use all the grits...I can easily hone a dead square *single* bevel at either 25deg (paring) or 30deg (orie nomi) on my Jap chisels, finishing up on the .3 micron paper, which is around 24,000g. The edge produced has to be felt to be believed :shock: 

The Kell III is not, say again NOT a 'straight out the box' type of device. It requires some considered input and thought on the user's behalf to get the very best out of it, but once you have seen the light, it's the simplest and by far the best guide on the market by a very long way, and it will hone 99% of your blades...I can even hone these which you'd be very hard pressed to do in anything else.

Persevere and the penny will drop :wink: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (5 Sep 2010)

There are some interesting video clips on youtube by Richard Kell showing some of the stuff he's done. This link is to a beautiful luthier's plane he made http://www.youtube.com/user/richardkell ... CD84KBqNTk

There's also one about a chess set he was commissioned to make for Alan Peters, which was incorporated into one of Alan's pieces http://www.youtube.com/user/richardkell ... W8SZPOUZVQ

Fascinating stuff.....

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (5 Sep 2010)

woodbloke":3jyyv361 said:


> ...I can even hone these which you'd be very hard pressed to do in anything else......


Except freehand of course - absolutely no problem, as any Japanese woodworker would tell you.
Or are there container loads of Kell jigs being exported to Japan, to resolve an ancient Japanese honing enigma?


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## matthewwh (5 Sep 2010)

Interesting stuff!

For a long time I've been tinkering with the idea of developing a set of wedges or wedge blanks and maybe even pre-made standoffs or bits of perspex to make them from and selling them alongside this product. 

At one end of the spectrum there are going to be a bunch of people who will say - you're having a laugh - I could make that myself in five minutes.

At the extreme opposite end of the spectrum there will be another bunch of people who will try to use the items without even considering the possibility of customising them to purpose and berate the whole lot as $hite if everything doesn't fit their kit perfectly from the get go.

And a thousand shades and flavours of opinion in between.

No personal slights intended here whatsoever, so please don't anyone take offence - I'm merely trying to explain the thought process behind my decision. 

The thing that struck me was that the No.3 is a facilitating tool and to people who tend towards the first group it will be the most magical invention they have ever encountered. 

For example; there was a thread on here ages ago about them, where the issue of cambering irons was discussed. Problem - the blade registers against pins on one side so if you shim under one wheel and then the other to create a camber it will be uneven. Solution - the whole thing is symmetrical so camber one side, flip the blade around the other way and camber the opposite side identically. Quick, simple, accurate and works perfectly with any width of blade.

So the rationale behind the decision not to supply wedges for it is that the product automatically appeals to customers who are predisposed to get the most out of it. Trying to jam it down the throat of everyone else for personal profit would sully the elegance of what is, to my mind, one of the most beautiful and complete pieces of design ever.


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## Paul Chapman (6 Sep 2010)

Hi Matthew,

Maybe another option would be to make a youtube video demonstrating how you make the wedges and perspex stand-off thingies to fit the various types of blades :-k 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2010)

matthewwh":3ahgqyoy said:


> .... a set of wedges or wedge blanks and maybe even pre-made standoffs or bits of perspex t......
> .... a facilitating tool........... the issue of cambering irons ......the blade registers against pins ..... shim under one wheel ..... create a camber ..........one of the most beautiful and complete pieces of design ever.


Or you can avoid all these issues by freehand sharpening. 
Cambering is easy - in fact unavoidable if you have a worn out hollow stone like mine! That's another freehand plus - you don't have to flatten stones.


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2010)

woodbloke":3keouccd said:


> .... it's a precision piece of kit .......you need to make a series of wedges for individual, or groups of sizes of blades. ......once you know the slope of the wedge (given in the instructions) it's a 10 minute job to make one, ....However, you do need to use it with a series of projection boards:.....and adaptors for different blades. .... the relevant board and an acrylic insert....honing a skew chisel...note in each of the pics a different sized wedge.....you need a surface to hone on where the wheels are level with the honing surface..... how to hone 45deg as it can't be done normally, .....make up a little sled that raises the wheels by 6mm and just slide it across each honing surface in turn....requires some considered input and thought on the user's behalf to get the very best out of it.....it's the simplest and by far the best guide on the market by a very long way, .....


So, if that's _the simplest and by far the best guide on the market _ 
the others must be a right pain in the a***e! :lol: :lol:


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## bugbear (6 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":lhpjupec said:


> woodbloke":lhpjupec said:
> 
> 
> > ...I can even hone these which you'd be very hard pressed to do in anything else......
> ...



Mmm. Japanese sharpening. Extended sequence of grits, carefully flattened stones, straight bevels.

Sounds quite a good system.

BugBear


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2010)

bugbear":nlpjom07 said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":nlpjom07 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbloke":nlpjom07 said:
> ...


You forgot to mention "freehand".
TBH I don't know anything about Jap sharpening except I take it for granted they do it freehand and aren't dependent on the Kell jig. I know they have to put up with soft "water stones" which seem to be problematic compared to the wide variety available here.


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## Harlequin (9 Sep 2010)

right - some difficulty

am trying to hone a LN dovetail chisel at 25 degrees
since the blade protrusion is 30mm the side of the chisel can only register against one of the registering pins.
this makes the blade quite unstable and it pivots over the horizontal brass bar with a wedge in use
what is the solution (what am I doing wrong)
how does one maintain the precise angle and orientation?

should I use a standoff - it falls away !!


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## Jacob (10 Sep 2010)

Harlequin":1dxy3v6p said:


> right - some difficulty
> 
> am trying to hone a LN dovetail chisel at 25 degrees
> since the blade protrusion is 30mm the side of the chisel can only register against one of the registering pins.
> ...


You make 25 little wedges and inserts from various woods and bits of perspex and fiddle about for a day or two. 
Or you give up and do it freehand in 30 seconds. Or 2 minutes if the bevel is not already close to 25º


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## matthewwh (10 Sep 2010)

Harlequin":20hd5z8f said:


> right - some difficulty
> 
> am trying to hone a LN dovetail chisel at 25 degrees
> since the blade protrusion is 30mm the side of the chisel can only register against one of the registering pins.



Hi Harlequin,
I've had a look at the LN's on their site and I'm trying to picture what you are doing, is it the fishtail or a skew?


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## Harlequin (10 Sep 2010)

Neither Matthew

it is the basic straight dovetail chisel
the blade from tip to shoulder is about 4 inches or so.
it is just that one of the pins ends up being at about the shoulder of the chisel so the chisel cannot register against both pins for a perfect straight attitude

if you look at woodblokes pics above - the last but one gives an indication of the problem.If that chisel has to protrude out a bit more or say is an inch shorter then what would the upper most registration pin reference (it would be past the shoulder)


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## matthewwh (10 Sep 2010)

My first reaction would be that the No1 or No2 guides are designed for doing short bladed chisels and given the option that would be the best choice for the job. 

If you wanted to do it with the No 3 it is possible though.

A standoff of thin material that will register against both pins to give square with a shallow parallel shoulder. I have angled the top of the standoff to allow better clearance for the bolster if required. 





The chisel sits on top of the standoff, reducing the projection required. I just knocked this up out of a bit of MDF to illustrate the principle but it will hold the 2-1/4" bladed chisel shown at 25 degrees.


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## Harlequin (10 Sep 2010)

ah - got it
thanks


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## custard (12 Sep 2010)

In the sailing world they say engines (in sail boats) aren't much use without marinas, and marinas aren't much use without engines. 

It's similar with the Kell guide and the scary sharp system!


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## matthewwh (13 Sep 2010)

You are quite right that the two work well together but you can use the same guide with stones. Just plane a scrap to the same thickness as your stone and then rip it in half and screw the two pieces to a board as rails running either side of the stone. Wheels running off the stone, so no wear of either where it isn't wanted, and if you use stones that are prone to wear down you can either adjust the blade protrusion or pack under the stone occasionally to bring it back to level. 

Just don't tell Jacob about your analogy or he'll be ridiculing new fangled marine diesels and extolling the many virtues of oars before we know what's hit us!


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## lurker (16 Sep 2010)

matthewwh":3vb6zf5r said:


> Just don't tell Jacob about your analogy or he'll be ridiculing new fangled marine diesels and extolling the many virtues of oars before we know what's hit us!



And I bet he has a special way of using the oar that involves dipping

Having said that I'll stick to my 3 quid eclipse honeing guide thanks very much - works fine with Scary


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2010)

custard":3tfdq347 said:


> In the sailing world they say engines (in sail boats) aren't much use without marinas, and marinas aren't much use without engines.
> 
> It's similar with the Kell guide and the scary sharp system!


Don't quite follow that. 
Having sailed around the Scottish and the Channel islands a few times in marina free territory and I can tell you that engines are very handy - bigger the better what with tidal races, Corryvreckan, races down each side of Alderney, getting out of the Solent etc. etc.
Have also helped sail and/or row an engineless 27ft sailing boat in and out of marinas at various times.


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## dunbarhamlin (16 Sep 2010)

I hear tell longships could make 30 knots powered by mead, bread and venison


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## mark w (19 Sep 2010)

Why not buy the Veritas mark 2, cheaper and easier to use.

Mark W


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## matthewwh (21 Sep 2010)

Take your pick:

Wheelbase broader than the workpiece makes the Kell guide master of the blade, so it dictates square rather than accepting the blade's version of square. - Admittedly the Veritas is better than most in this regard.

A wedge will hold a blade more securely than a bar with a screw at either end - if you don't get the screw tension absolutely identical the blade will clamped more firmly on one side than the other.

With the Kell, if you make your rails a bit longer than the stone you can use the whole surface rather than having to subtract the distance between the roller and the edge.

Cheaper? Kell = £44.95, Veritas = £50.95

Easier to use? I'm not so sure, the Kell requres a little lateral thought but in use you just set the projection, squeeze the wedge home and hone. The Veritas is more prescriptive but it has more knobs and switches than a Norden bomb sight.

Will the Veritas do short bladed chisels, mortice chisels, skew chisels, fishtail chisels, tapered irons, plough plane irons, shoulder plane irons, scraper blades...?

Maybe I'm being too harsh, it is definitely the other best guide available and I do recommend the Veritas to anyone who doesn't get on with the Kell (and we don't even carry the Veritas). Like the rest of their product range it is certainly a well thought out and engineered bit of kit. 

Personally though, I just love the simplicity of Richard's design - only two moving parts (the wheels) and yet with the application of a bit of nowse it will facilitate the accurate honing of just about anything in the 'shop. Somehow it's a more 'British' solution - 'You can keep your Norden bomb sight thank you, with a V shaped stick, two lights and a spinning bomb we can flood the whole valley!'


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## Harlequin (21 Sep 2010)

matthewwh":98npj9i9 said:


> Somehow it's a more 'British' solution - 'You can keep your Norden bomb sight thank you, with a V shaped stick, two lights and a spinning bomb we can flood the whole valley!'



nice one Matt  

Right I have adapted the DMT kit to the kell

The 8000 stone is a bit thicker so using the cork shim allows me to hone a primary bevel on all stones upto the green extrafine.
Removing the shim allows the 8000 grit stone to lie about 1.8 mm below the level - which allows a secondary bevel .
the pics are self explanatary I think


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## mark w (21 Sep 2010)

The veritas will do mortice chisels, skew chisels, fishtail chisels, tapered irons, plough plane irons, shoulder plane irons, scraper blades and japanese chisels which are quite short. 
As for the price don`t forget to add the time and cost of making all those jigs.
If anybody finds setting up a Veritas MK2 honing guide complicated I seriously question wether they should be handling sharp blades.
To say the Kell is a British solution is probably true, upper class idiosyncratic British is probably closer to the mark, I`ve just thought of a new name for it, "The Boris"

Mark W


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## Alf (21 Sep 2010)

matthewwh":b8mf5l83 said:


> Personally though, I just love the simplicity of Richard's design - only two moving parts (the wheels)...


Personally I'm assuming the only way the honing guide can get any more "User Adaptable" is if Richard starts selling just a pair of wheels... :wink: 



Matthew":b8mf5l83 said:


> Will the Veritas do short bladed chisels, mortice chisels, skew chisels, fishtail chisels, tapered irons, plough plane irons, shoulder plane irons, scraper blades...?


I think you might be having the side-clamping type jigs more in mind with this list, Matthew; the Veritas will do all - or most - of those. Mortise chisels are a pain in narrower sizes with pretty much any guide, and I doubt the Miracle Jig is any different. (Prove me wrong, you know you want to! :wink: ) Haven't used a scraper plane in so long, can't honestly remember what fits and what doesn't. But in all honesty I find the Mk2 over-complicated too. But then I think the Kell is _under_-complicated (Almost to the point of taking the mickey), and solving a problem I don't have. If a woodworker hasn't got the hand skills to get a jig to give him or her a square edge when required, then how in Hades will he or she have the hand skills to use that edge? And come to think of it, you need the skills to wedge the blade in the jig in order to achieve a square edge anyway. S'no good, the more I think about this jig, the dafter it seems to be. :?


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## Jacob (21 Sep 2010)

Alf":2npiw2pc said:


> matthewwh":2npiw2pc said:
> 
> 
> > Personally though, I just love the simplicity of Richard's design - only two moving parts (the wheels)...
> ...


 :lol: :lol: 
It's a development in the right direction IMHO. 

The first honing jigs were not much good. 

Later ones got more complicated, with lots of attachments, but were still not much good. 

The Kell jig is evolution going in reverse; it's still not much good, one of the worst in fact. 
But it is a pointer in the right direction; the next obvious step is no jig at all! (Ignoring Alf's "pair of wheels" suggestion.)

Then sharpening will be a lot easier for everybody.


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## woodbloke (21 Sep 2010)

Alf":23bkn5jf said:


> S'no good, the more I think about this jig, the dafter it seems to be. :?


Al, true enough, it will always have it's naysayers and unbelievers and that's fine. However, it's only when you actually _use_ one and see just how simple it is can the user appreciate it's worth...just my view :wink: - Rob


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