# Fuel crisis



## Karl (29 Mar 2012)

What the hell is going on? 

I've just been to Morrisons to fill up (because I had no fuel, not as a panic buy !), and you wouldn't believe the size of the queue - they'd re-directed traffic around the car park because it was causing jams and nobody could move. I couldn't be bothered queueing so did a u-turn and came home.

A strike hasn't even been announced, but it seems people are responding to news coverage.

Cheers

Karl


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## marcros (29 Mar 2012)

its crazy isnt it. panic buying incase they announce a strike, for which they have to give 7 days notice.

If there is a strike, will it affect the North- i thought it was the drivers that covered 20% of the petrol stations in London and the South East, or have others joined in? It isnt as though they earn a pittance, I read somewhere that the average wage for these tanker drivers is 45k! There are people crying out for jobs, and we have situations like this where the unions are calling for strikes to justify the fees that they charge members each year.


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## jpt (29 Mar 2012)

Typical sheep, they hear about a strike then the governments stupid comments and rush out to stock up. Ignoring the bit about there might not be a strike as we are still in negotiations and even if there is one we will have to give at least 7 days notice.

Its like Christmas and Easter where the supermarkets are going to be closed for one day and when snow is forcast they go out and buy up anything and everything 90% of which will probably end up in the bin, makes me angry.

Rant over

john


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## Sawyer (29 Mar 2012)

marcros":2e7e61ps said:


> It isnt as though they earn a pittance, I read somewhere that the average wage for these tanker drivers is 45k! There are people crying out for jobs, and we have situations like this where the unions are calling for strikes to justify the fees that they charge members each year.


It's not as though the profits of the oil companies, fuel retailers and transport contractors are a pittance either!
The issue is cost-cutting by the contractors at the expense of drivers' terms and conditions pensions and health & safety. After all these drivers are moving huge quantities of extremely volatile fuel on public roads. 
Remember the Buncefield Refinery fire of 2005? The report expressed concern about safety issues.


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## marcros (29 Mar 2012)

i am struggling to find online a comprehensive list of the reasons why they are looking at striking. There are fleeting mentions on the bbc about changes to the pension companies over the past few years, and the relaxation of rules on who can drive the tankers. Unfortunately, in the real world, pension providers do change- mine has on a number of occasions where I have changed job. As for relaxing of who can drive the tankers, for which there are other mentions on BBC or Sky, then provided that they meet a minimum standard, then fair enough- this sounds like the union wants to make it a closed shop rather than allow competition. I wish that the law would allow companies to replace striking workers with people who want to work- dont like your terms, fine, lets find somebody who does.

Any changes to drivers terms and conditions would have been negotiated through the union would they not?


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## devonwoody (29 Mar 2012)

Another way to look at the reason for a strike.

If bankers increase turnover they get more income, its tied to there turnover and prices

If Estate agents sell you house at twice the price they get twice as much commission 

ETC. etc.etc.

Tanker drivers are delivering higher cost fuel and greater turnover for their employer, they want their percentage.

I am not a strike sympathiser just a realist.


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## marcros (29 Mar 2012)

I dont follow that argument- if bankers add more value, they get rewarded for doing so. If estate agents add more value, they get rewarded for it. Tanker drivers are not adding any additional value- if they were able to reduce the turnaround time there is a saving, then fair enough they should be able to get a cut of that saving, but they are resisting doing that.


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## tomatwark (29 Mar 2012)

Typically the first full week off I have had in a couple of years aside from Christmas, we were due to go and stay with friends in Kent over the Easter weekend, I guess that unless there is a miracle and this is sorted we are not going as I am not going to spend my holiday sitting in a queue for diesel as people have been convinced into panic buying by an silly person in 10 Downing Street.

I wonder how much extra tax the government will make in this financial year.

The leaders of Unite are no better as they seem hell bent on causing trouble for their own ends, by not sorting this out.

I am sure that the tanker drivers feel they have some valid arguments but leaders of Unite have let them down so far by being interested in their own political goals.

It goes to show though how easy it would be to bring the whole of this country to its knees.

Tom


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## devonwoody (29 Mar 2012)

Macross, Judges get massive pay increases to match other income earners and they dont create more wealth!


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## deserter (29 Mar 2012)

Is it just me or do others find it extremely suspicious that the government causes this panic buying a week after budget day?


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## marcros (29 Mar 2012)

devonwoody":2ie3h9y9 said:


> Macross, Judges get massive pay increases to match other income earners and they dont create more wealth!



It doesnt make it right though. Could be an excellent way of cutting some costs- let the market decide what to pay judges too. It has worked with trainee solicitors- demand for jobs has far exceeded supply of jobs, so they are paid a token wage, having probably done an entry level admin job for some years at the firm, just to get a foot in the door. More so for barristers where trainees get paid nothing.

These lorry drivers will work some unsociable hours and shifts, and they carry a dangerous cargo. They should be compensated for those elements, but at the end of the day, there are not a scarce resource- there are plenty wanting to work in their place.


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## henton49er (29 Mar 2012)

deserter":4g3lxhk4 said:


> Is it just me or do others find it extremely suspicious that the government causes this panic buying a week after budget day?



Yes; we are all fussing about having enough fuel and not getting totally p*ss*d off with the Govt for not abandoning the proposed 3p per litre increase due in August(?). That and the increase in the cost of hot food takeaways from bakers plus the removal of the age related tax free band of income made it a pretty bad budget for pensioners on a moderate income. :shock: :shock: :shock: 

And don't get me started on the 60p first class stamp!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 

Mike


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## wardroom (29 Mar 2012)

Went to my local supermarket fuel provider and it was sold out, on way home called into an **** garage and the forecourt was in use but no fuel comming out of the pumps, when i asked what was wrong the guy behind the counter stated he has instructions to increase the price before any more fuel is sold.

never bothered and wont use that chain again.


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## Dodge (29 Mar 2012)

Diesel is getting pretty scarce at the pumps round here in south Norfolk with huge queues at the garages that have fuel.

I was hoping to head off to Derbyshire with my family for a break over Easter but beginning to wonder if thats going to happen!


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## wobblycogs (29 Mar 2012)

Perhaps I'm missing something here but these guys are basically just driving lorries around. Fair enough they are dragging around a dangerous cargo but from what I've read they are making out that day in day out they are performing feats of super human driving skill. I'm sure they need additional training to handle loading and unloading of the fuel but the fact the army believes they can train existing truck drivers in 8 days makes me think it's not that complex.

I can't help feeling that the unions have spotted a weak point in the countries infrastructure so are exploiting in much the same way as TFL hold London to ransom every now and then.

And to boot the car is all but out of fuel... :-(


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## StevieB (29 Mar 2012)

Just to put the otherside of the equation forward:

We all remember the problems with the last fuel strike. The governement have said people should CONSIDER keeping their tanks full and given due warning of POTENTIAL problems. This includes making contingency plans such training relief drivers from the RAF. How many of the people bleating now about over-reaction, would be the same people bleating about not enough being done if government had done nothing and the strike goes ahead, bringing the country to a standstill? (heres looking at you, Mr Milliband) Whatever they do they are damned (although telling people to keep a jerrycan in the shed is indeed daft advice). It's the general public that are too darn stupid to NOT panic buy. Government is damned if they do and damned if they don't in this instance. 

FWIW, I think the biggest reasons for giving the advice they have done is a) to ratchet up pressure on tanker drivers /unions not to strike due to public opinion, and b) to try and prevent this becasue the damage to the UK economy (and chance of going into recession) as a consequence if they do strike is very real. If an extra bank holiday for the Queens diamond jubilee is already being warned as a negative factor in UK economic output, then a week where nobody works due to fuel shortages has got to be bad news economically......


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## wobblycogs (29 Mar 2012)

Long term though it could be really good news for the economy. If fuel supplies become even slightly unreliable people and businesses will start looking at alternatives like working from home and electric vehicles. Not having billions of pounds a year heading off to middle east would really help our trade deficit. According to this http://www.mansgreatestmistake.com/the-true-cost-of-cars/how-much-do-we-spend-on-fuel-for-cars about 15 billion a year leaves the country because of fuel.


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Mar 2012)

devonwoody":2ugeuyij said:


> Another way to look at the reason for a strike.
> 
> If bankers increase turnover they get more income, its tied to there turnover and prices
> 
> ...


So, presumably when the tankers are om the road empty they shouldn't be paid at all?


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## RogerP (29 Mar 2012)

> If Estate agents sell you house at twice the price they get twice as much commission


Never could understand why estate agents fees are based of the house price.


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## Sawyer (29 Mar 2012)

marcros":2thwll3x said:


> i am struggling to find online a comprehensive list of the reasons why they are looking at striking. There are fleeting mentions on the bbc about changes to the pension companies over the past few years, and the relaxation of rules on who can drive the tankers. Unfortunately, in the real world, pension providers do change- mine has on a number of occasions where I have changed job. As for relaxing of who can drive the tankers, for which there are other mentions on BBC or Sky, then provided that they meet a minimum standard, then fair enough- this sounds like the union wants to make it a closed shop rather than allow competition. I wish that the law would allow companies to replace striking workers with people who want to work- dont like your terms, fine, lets find somebody who does.
> 
> Any changes to drivers terms and conditions would have been negotiated through the union would they not?


Not necessarily; unless the employer has a Recognition Agreement (many don't). Attempts to try it on with a unilateral change of contract are all too frequent and unless workers know their rights and are organised, employers will often get away with it.
Where a union has negotiated an agreement with an employer - they don't call their members out on strike!
In this case, Unite have been trying for the past 12 months to reach agreement with the various companies who employ these drivers: some of the companies won't even _attend_ meetings to discuss the problem.

'If you don't like it, let's find somebody who does' is what all bad employers would love and leads to one thing - a race to the bottom. That's why workers in the third world for example, are treated so appallingly.


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## SteveB43 (29 Mar 2012)

Hang on, let's just backtrack on this for a sec..
Now who benefits most from 'surge' or 'panic' buying.....

the Exchequer, the Govt, call 'em what you will and in two ways, increased duty from increased fuel sales AND
increased tax receipts from the Fuel companies...

..and who was it that sparked the panic buying..... The govt that's who... 

is that not a clear cut example of insider trading or illegal 'market moving' !! :twisted: :twisted:


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## Jacob (29 Mar 2012)

SteveB43":trugz2q2 said:


> ........
> Now who benefits most from 'surge' or 'panic' buying.....
> 
> the Exchequer, the Govt, call 'em what you will and in two ways, increased duty from increased fuel sales AND
> increased tax receipts from the Fuel companies...


Not unless everybody drives a lot more than usual. There will be a sales slump after everybody has filled their tanks.


> ..and who was it that sparked the panic buying..... The govt that's who...
> 
> is that not a clear cut example of insider trading or illegal 'market moving' !! :twisted: :twisted:


Nothing so clever - they are just a bunch of jumped-up public school silly billy thickos who couldn't organise a booze up etc etc.


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## StevieB (29 Mar 2012)

Nobody benefits - people are not using more over the next 2-3 weeks, they are just filling up now instead of later. Same amount gets used in the long term so no advantage in terms of duty.


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## Dodge (29 Mar 2012)

Jacob":1kay0ltv said:


> they are just a bunch of jumped-up public school silly billy thickos who couldn't organise a booze up etc etc.



Be careful who you insult Jacob - I and many other genuine individuals went to Public School :shock: :shock: I am not destroying this country but ignorance is.


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## Digit (29 Mar 2012)

> I wonder how much extra tax the government will make in this financial year.



None from panic buying, next week, if there is no strike, the filling stations will sell less won't they.

Roy.


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## deserter (29 Mar 2012)

Not necessarily instead of people thinking before driving they will more than likely make longer and or unnecessary journeys "as the cars full anyway"


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## tomatwark (29 Mar 2012)

Digit":1717mbl5 said:


> > I wonder how much extra tax the government will make in this financial year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Roy

Next week is the new financial year.

Tom


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## promhandicam (29 Mar 2012)

StevieB":1478e4sk said:


> Nobody benefits



Not so. The petrol stations owners (at least round here) are benefiting significantly as they are marking up the price of the fuel at the pump by up to 10p per litre.


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## Digit (29 Mar 2012)

So they won't be making any extra money!

Roy.


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## promhandicam (29 Mar 2012)

Digit":iwavgbkl said:


> So they won't be making any extra money!
> 
> Roy.



Are you replying to my post? If so, how do you work out that they aren't making extra profit?


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## Digit (29 Mar 2012)

No, Tom's, we crossed.

Roy.


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## Digit (29 Mar 2012)

'Cos overal the amount of petrol sold is unlikely to change is it?

Roy.


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## Dibs-h (29 Mar 2012)

Was down to the reserve yesterday, so nipped into the local Morrisons, which had a queue, but no more than you would see on a Sat morning. Got to the pump in < 5 mins. Filled the tank as that should last me almost 3 weeks, assuming no long trips.

Was thinking about going to London on Sat for techie conference, but seriously reconsidering that, as a return trip would suck nearly 2/3's of a tank.  and don't fancy running out if the panic buying continues.

Dibs


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## cambournepete (29 Mar 2012)

Dibs-h":11kmyaek said:


> Was thinking about going to London on Sat for techie conference, but seriously reconsidering that, as a return trip would suck nearly 2/3's of a tank.


Take a train instead then


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## llangatwgnedd (29 Mar 2012)

So who's to blame for all this panic buying?

A Government Minister, or a tanker driver that's not on strike??


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## devonwoody (30 Mar 2012)

Why doesn't everyone go out and buy a couple of years 1st class postage stamps!

That would cause a shortage and you should get the equivalent of 30% on your investment. 

:wink: :x


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## Karl (30 Mar 2012)

Well the sheep clearly aren't early risers - went to fuel up at 6.30 when the petrol station opened and there were only a handful of cars. Bet it won't be like that later on today....


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## SammyQ (30 Mar 2012)

_Jacob wrote:
they are just a bunch of jumped-up public school silly billy thickos who couldn't organise a booze up etc etc.

Dodge wrote:
Be careful who you insult Jacob - I and many other genuine individuals went to Public School I am not destroying this country but ignorance is.
_

Roger, 
As a denizen of the Common Room (Staffroom) in one, I can understand a little of where Jacob is coming from. But, I can also see how it has been initiated, sustained and embellished.The trouble is threefold: sweeping generalisation, jealousy and association. Sweeping generalisation: all Public school boys are self-absorbed, dim, plonkers; Thank You, Kelvin Mackensie et al. Jealousy: why should THEY have all the money, cars, holidays, randy women? Association: there HAVE been some actual great steaming half-wits; committing irrresponsible, selfish, acts and they HAVE attended public school. It's just noise really. See it every day to fill column space or fill TV time. Boring. 


For what it it worth, the Real Problem, as I see it, is the profound dishonesty and self-centred rapacious behaviour of political animals. Labour, Tory, DUP, they are all the same, with the possible exceptions of Jack Ashley, Frank Field, Martin Bell and Austin Wotisname - who tried (unsuccessfully) to get houses issued with Tax Books, same as cars, to make selling houses cheaper. HE got voted down resoundingly by Parliment as it would deprive lawyers of income....remind me what profession most M.P.'s were before election? ....lawyers! Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Sam


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## Digit (30 Mar 2012)

Yep! Despite Jacon's continuation of the Class War idiocy makes no distinction between Class, age, gender, education, race, status nor money!
To your list of MPs I would add Tony Benn and the 'Beast of Bolsover, and I'm a right winger!

Roy.


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## Jacob (30 Mar 2012)

Old Etonian George Orwell, in 1941: "It is important not to misunderstand their motives, or one cannot predict their actions. What is to be expected of them is not treachery, or physical cowardice, but stupidity, unconscious sabotage, an infallible instinct for doing the wrong thing. They are not wicked, or not altogether wicked; they are merely unteachable. Only when their money and power are gone will the younger among them begin to grasp what century they are living in."

Full article here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... NTCMP=SRCH


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## Digit (30 Mar 2012)

What are you trying to prove?

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (30 Mar 2012)

deserter":96ekvkg5 said:


> Is it just me or do others find it extremely suspicious that the government causes this panic buying a week after budget day?



Is it just me, or did the 'Milliband Kid' hatch a plot with the Union who funded his election as Labour leader, in the hope that Cameron would do just what he did. Cause panic buying by making a rash proclamation about jerry-cans and filling up petrol tanks, in case. Presumably no one told the Divi that the Unions have to give notice of a strike; if that is they decide to have one. (I wonder what Milliband would have done that would be any better?) What a load of plonkers! 
The country is being run by a bunch of vociferous, incompetent schoolboys, who think of little else but status, power and filling their already silk-lined pockets. 

I am sometimes glad I am at this end of life. Then I remember my grand-children who will have to suffer these nincompoops and their like, for decades to come!


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## Benchwayze (30 Mar 2012)

SammyQ":2w52n2tt said:


> _Jacob wrote:
> they are just a bunch of jumped-up public school silly billy thickos who couldn't organise a booze up etc etc.
> 
> Dodge wrote:
> ...



I was always taught that what you referred to as jealousy, was in fact envy; you know... The principle (or the emotion) upon which Socialism is founded. :wink: :lol:


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## Digit (30 Mar 2012)

> The principle (or the emotion) upon which Socialism is founded.



Yep! If I haven't got it I'm gonna make sure you don't have it!

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (30 Mar 2012)

Homer Simpson for World Leader.................... (homer) :mrgreen:


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## Dodge (30 Mar 2012)

Jacob":cb5d1ryl said:


> they are just a bunch of jumped-up public school silly billy thickos who couldn't organise a booze up etc etc.



I just didn't like the personally insulting comment re individuals who have been to public school which was made in the broadest of terms to include all those who attended public school. :evil: :evil:


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## Digit (30 Mar 2012)

That's our Jacob! Wait till he finds out about Kent's new Grammar schools!

Roy.


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## Digit (30 Mar 2012)

You couldn't, as they say, make it up!

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16199277

Roy.


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## Dodge (30 Mar 2012)

Digit":gvyg33wl said:


> You couldn't, as they say, make it up!
> 
> http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16199277
> 
> Roy.



Was she filling her Zippo lighter up??

Anyway I could not believe it earlier, there is one Shell garage in our adjoining village but the pumps ran dry earlier today so motorists have been camped out on the forecourt with their cars by the pumps waiting for the anticipated delivery some time this afternoon - It was even mentioned on Radio 2. beggars Belief doesnt it.


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## Digit (30 Mar 2012)

Gawd knows what they'll do if there is a strike!

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (30 Mar 2012)

I have enough in my tank from my last fill-up for about 200 miles. I shan't be bothering to use the car much anyhow, but certainly I'm not driving around looking for stations with no queue... And I ain't waitin' in any queue either! 
I've dug out the key for my petrol cap! :-" 

All I can do now is hope for the best.


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## devonwoody (31 Mar 2012)

I suspect there will be more ladies wanting a ride shortly. :wink:


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## SammyQ (31 Mar 2012)

_I was always taught that what you referred to as jealousy, was in fact envy; you know... The principle (or the emotion) upon which Socialism is founded. 

_________________
Regards John._


D'you know John, upon reflection, I'm not sure, could be either! The problem is, it engenders a mental state that is certainly not empathic but is emphatically self-centred! 

Sam


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## Steve Jones (31 Mar 2012)

I drove from Halesowen to Tywyn and back yesterday mostly across the A458, most garages had fuel of some description and there were no queues anywhere. I had to get a can of petrol for a job with my woodchipper today, I was in the local garage at 6am yesterday morning and managed to fill up ok but I've now just been told my local garage is dry and although they've ordered a tanker they don't know when it will be coming !
I have enough in my mowers to work on Monday but after that who knows.

Steve


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## steadyeddie (31 Mar 2012)

I'm afraid my mower is empty. Looks like the lawns will have to wait :wink: 

Dave


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## knappers (31 Mar 2012)

Genius.

Si


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## Digit (31 Mar 2012)

> I'm afraid my mower is empty. Looks like the lawns will have to wait



:twisted: 

Roy.


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## Benchwayze (31 Mar 2012)

SammyQ":1td9xlz7 said:


> _I was always taught that what you referred to as jealousy, was in fact envy; you know... The principle (or the emotion) upon which Socialism is founded.
> 
> _________________
> Regards John._
> ...


Nods! I concur Sam... 8)


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## Jacob (31 Mar 2012)

SammyQ":zzm7dzko said:


> _I was always taught that what you referred to as jealousy, was in fact envy; you know... The principle (or the emotion) upon which Socialism is founded.
> 
> _________________
> Regards John._
> ...


What on earth is this incoherent nonsense? :roll: 
It's easy enough to find out what socialism is about if you really want to. Lots of alternative definitions to choose from too!
Briefly it is the notion that we ourselves ("society") should take control (if necessary) of the things which matter to us, rather than leaving them to chance (free market etc). It exists because free markets fail to provide all the necessities for civilised life, for a large proportion of the population. 
Think of USA healthcare as compared to our own NHS, but there are countless other examples, evident to anybody with half a brain, all around the world.


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## devonwoody (31 Mar 2012)

It would be a wonderful planet if we all could be just like Rockefeller and everyone as successful, wouldnt it?


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## Benchwayze (31 Mar 2012)

Jacob":3e3x3xrw said:


> SammyQ":3e3x3xrw said:
> 
> 
> > _I was always taught that what you referred to as jealousy, was in fact envy; you know... The principle (or the emotion) upon which Socialism is founded.
> ...



Jacob, 

If you weren't aiming your response at me, then you should have deleted my response from your quote. If you were including me, then I'll just say although I am 73 years old, I am not yet showing any signs of Dementia, or Alzheimer's Disease. (Unless you count bothering to respond to this.) 

So, I'm quite capable of making up my own mind about Socialism. Please don't tell me I am talking rubbish. I know what Socialism seeks to achieve, and yes, there are some values that make sense. The problem is, it's the application of Socialism that has gone awry. That my friend, is the reason I don't have any truck with it, nor with the likes of Blair, Brown, Miliband and pretenders like Wedgwood-Benn. (He gave up his title but not his money?) They live in Utopia; or their version of it. 

So Jacob, if what we have now, is your idea of Utopia, then I think it's you who should go away and do some reading. Then you might be qualified to tell me what Socialism is and what it's all about.

NMTBS from me.


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## Steve Jones (31 Mar 2012)

steadyeddie":2z0fq8cy said:


> I'm afraid my mower is empty. Looks like the lawns will have to wait :wink:
> 
> Dave



Trouble is Dave it's what I do for a living  

Steve


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## Jacob (31 Mar 2012)

Benchwayze":2qkewmsl said:


> .....
> So Jacob, if what we have now, is your idea of Utopia,


Certainly isn't. We've got an awful Tory govt for starters!


> then I think it's you who should go away and do some reading. Then you might be qualified to tell me what Socialism is and what it's all about.
> 
> NMTBS from me.


No need to be huffy! If you support strong opinions about socialists suggesting that their motives are envy or jealousy, then you should expect a vigorous response!
I agree with you about Blair, Brown, Miliband - too depressing to think about. Tony Benn OK though - he says a lot of sensible things. Not sure what he does with his money but he supports higher taxation and redistribution so presumably accepts that this could cost him something.


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## Digit (31 Mar 2012)

Good on you Jacob, now you can answer the question you dodged once before. Give an example of a 'Socialist' state that worked.
Last time I stated the only case I knew of was the Kibbutzim.

Roy.


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## Jacob (31 Mar 2012)

Digit":1xho84rk said:


> Good on you Jacob, now you can answer the question you dodged once before. Give an example of a 'Socialist' state that worked.
> Last time I stated the only case I knew of was the Kibbutzim.
> 
> Roy.


Most of the democratic "first" world is basically socialist including UK and USA. They are democratic and all have large areas of life under government control or regulation - but the government is elected, so that means us.
Not sure what you have in mind - I guess you mean a state where absolutely everything is under central control. Tends not to work, as we all know, except in emergencies e.g under external threat of war, but at great cost.


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## Benchwayze (31 Mar 2012)

I wasn't going to say any more Jacob. 

However, we don't have a Tory Government. The last time I checked we had a Coalition; led by a Tory Prime Minister, trying to sort out 'another fine Socialist mess'. Of course Cameron wants to stay in power, so he has to pander to the likes of Clegg. Otherwise the Lib-Dems decamp, and we have another election, probably letting in a schoolboy, with a simplified view of the world and classroom levels of debate. I'll give you, that on this recent occasion Cameron didn't give much away to Clegg, but there are deeper issues to look at, other than 'Redistribution of Wealth'. 

Neither am I being huffy. I am giving you my opinion. Socialism is heavily based on envy, and the wish to have everyone at one level. If you genuinely believe that redistribution of wealth via taxation means more money in your personal pocket, then you surprise me with your naivety. :| 

Next thing you will be saying is everyone has a right to work. 8)


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## Jacob (31 Mar 2012)

Benchwayze":5o527c6n said:


> ....
> Neither am I being huffy. I am giving you my opinion. Socialism is heavily based on envy, and the wish to have everyone at one level.


 Nope. Envy has nothing to do with it. Having some level playing fields does though. Education principally. It's simply inefficient and unproductive to have education based on ability to pay. The emerging economies all know this and are taking over the world!


> If you genuinely believe that redistribution of wealth via taxation means more money in your personal pocket, then you surprise me with your naivety. ....


Taxation is what drives all modern economies and is basically the price of civilisation itself. It's not about more money in my personal pocket - it's about quality of life. It does benefit businesses though, if money is forced to circulate. It's wasted on the wealthy, they don't need it. What goes around comes around.


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## RogerS (31 Mar 2012)

John...I can recommend the Foe list facility on the forum. It can save you a whole load of time and effort and getting sucked into the 'same-old-same-old' cant from a certain quarter :wink:


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## Benchwayze (31 Mar 2012)

](*,) 

If you want a level playing field Jacob you have to make one, 
Not rely on some Government Department to provide it 'free of charge'. 

Now I am going to add some more tax to the fund, and buy some timber.


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## Benchwayze (31 Mar 2012)

RogerS":1ebp3wpw said:


> John...I can recommend the Foe list facility on the forum. It can save you a whole load of time and effort and getting sucked into the 'same-old-same-old' cant from a certain quarter :wink:



 No Probs Roger. Thanks for the reminder though. I doubt I'd go that far with anyone. :-({|= :wink:


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## Jacob (31 Mar 2012)

Benchwayze":3af0pvha said:


> ](*,)
> 
> If you want a level playing field Jacob you have to make one,


We do. We vote for socialist policies (as far as we can nowadays :roll: )


> Not rely on some Government Department to provide it 'free of charge'.


It's not free of charge. We pay for it from taxation. It's like an organised whip round! e.g. we get state education or NHS by acting together, we don't make it up on our own. How would you make a level playing field otherwise?


> Now I am going to add some more tax to the fund, and buy some timber.


Good good! Don't begrudge the tax - you'll get it back many times over one way or another, especially if you are ill, but that's not the only way by any means.

PS poor old Roger - he thinks things go away if he closes his eyes! :lol: :lol:


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## Digit (31 Mar 2012)

> he thinks things go away if he closes his eyes!



And you think that if we tax the 'Wealthy' and give it to 'Disadvantaged' they will use it to improve their standard so that the 'Diasadvantaged' would then disappear!
That was the belief at the start of the welfare state, doesn't seem to be working does it?
Mind you of course, I have to confess that I'm not certain as to what the socialist definition of disadvantaged is?
And while you're at it could you show where universal education is 'Free?'
To agree with you on one point though, yes, there are many definitions of 'Socialism' usually tailored to suit those in power, after all, Nazi Germany was 'Socialist!'

Roy.


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## Jacob (31 Mar 2012)

Digit":a83obdkt said:


> > he thinks things go away if he closes his eyes!
> 
> 
> 
> And you think that if we tax the 'Wealthy' and give it to 'Disadvantaged' they will use it to improve their standard so that the 'Diasadvantaged' would then disappear!


Yes in principle. It's not that simple though. If you insist on over simplistic descriptions of how things work you won't understand them, but then you don't want to do you, like Roger peeking out between his fingers. :lol:


> That was the belief at the start of the welfare state, doesn't seem to be working does it?


It certainly does work. many of us wouldn't be here, let alone half educated, if it wasn't for the welfare state


> Mind you of course, I have to confess that I'm not certain as to what the socialist definition of disadvantaged is?


You tell me, it's your own little straw man.


> And while you're at it could you show where universal education is 'Free?'


Most of the civilised world has education free at point of delivery, paid for by taxation


> To agree with you on one point though, yes, there are many definitions of 'Socialism' usually tailored to suit those in power, after all, Nazi Germany was 'Socialist!'
> 
> Roy.


Take your pick.
If you are confused about the difference between Nazi "National Socialism" and Labour party "Socialism" you aren't going to get far in grown-up conversations!


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## theartfulbodger (31 Mar 2012)

RogerP":34ocl5vl said:


> > If Estate agents sell you house at twice the price they get twice as much commission
> 
> 
> Never could understand why estate agents fees are based of the house price.




It's a way of "taxing the rich"

Very Robing Hood :?


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## Digit (31 Mar 2012)

As I have an IQ of more than 150 Jacob I am not seeking ann 'over simplistic' explanation, just a logical one.
Goal posts again J, my comments about the welfare state were in direct reference to the 'Diadavantaged', not in other aspects of the WS, so please try again?
You are the one that keeps on about the 'Disadvantaged' I am simply seeking clarification as to who these are in case I might misunderstand you, so another explanation please? Or is the term as elastic 'Socialism?'
Goal posts again, 'Free at point of delivery' is not 'Free' is it?
And goal posts yet again, I simply observed that you claimed that there were many definitions of 'Socialism', which I ageed was the case, so you twisted what I said to suit yourself. I have little confusion vis-a-vis NAZI Germany etc.
Rather it seems that you 'Socialists' use the term to fit what ever form of government suits, why else are there , as you state, so many different interpretations?

Roy.


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## Jacob (31 Mar 2012)

Digit":zm56tan3 said:


> ....
> Goal posts again, 'Free at point of delivery' is not 'Free' is it?......
> Roy.


Correct. So what?


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## Digit (31 Mar 2012)

You implied that third world countries etc had 'Free Education', that's not so is it? As for them taking over I would observe that those who are so doing use capitalist methods. :lol: 
Any answers to my questions though?

Roy.


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## Mike.C (31 Mar 2012)

I think that this topic is exhausted, so lets move along hey.

Cheers

Mike


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