# WIP Under Stairs cupboards



## Stimpi (24 May 2014)

Under Stairs cupboards. No live animals, rules or tapes were used during the making of this post.

This is a project I have been considering for some time to which I have now made a start.
These are the stairs in question, quite normal, a straight flight with a quarter space landing top and 
bottom.







It has been a rainy day project for some time now with me toying with ideas with how the design should go. The job is now a goer and with Sharpy86 showing an interest last April I need to be prepared for questions and plenty of pictures .
One factor always constant in my mind is it is on the top floor level of a block of London flats with no lift. Everything has to be humped up a load of stairs. Another factor is I can only get up to London one day a week which will affect progress.
The way I wanted to go was constructing pull out cupboards on trolley wheels but the client did not want this with the and had a preference for a flush surface using MDF.
In the end it has come down to cost. Framed/paneled softwood is cheaper than MDF, easier to hump up stairs, I can transport it my self with own transport (£18.00 delivery charge on MDF), fabrication easier and I can fabricate at home in my own workshop. Still have to transport the gear to London.
So this is the plan






Staircase work is all about angles and work with angles is unforgiving, due to inaccuracies being exaggerated. Accuracy is the key which is why I prefer the use of Rods. Rules and tapes are left at home. Example, if I cut a joint 1/32”, out the discrepancy will grow just short of ¾ “ in a foot. 

The first task was to secure a 3” x 1 ½” vertical post plumb in both directions on the face at the high point of the spandrel. This is my reference in producing a rod. I call this reference point A






Reference Points for the rod. That is, physical marks are made between the reference point A and the newel Reference point B

This then has to be divided equally into four. I did this using geometry on a flat surface.
The flat surface I used was the client’s kitchen floor which was covered with a grey vinyl tile.
I will try and illustrate the theory with sketches rather than photo’s and then try and explain what I did and, why it was a simple process even without the use of rules or tapes.






I selected eight tiles as the A – C line fist placing pencils and bits of wood as demarcation. Brought to it the Rod with its two reference points matching the A reference with the first demarcation pencil. And swinging the B reference to form the angle till it met the tile line.

A useful piece of kit, easily made was used to check the spaces are equal which are, an overgrown pair of dividers. Useful for checking the divisions are equal.






I then took this Rod to the stairs, lined up the reference points and transferred the divisions on to the floor.











These marks were plumbed up and marked on the stair string plus marking the heights on a story Rod







With this information I drew more detail into the Rod using short ends of material positioned either sides of the marks.






With this information I drew more detail into the Rod using short ends of material positioned either sides of the marks.






This was the setting out complete and cutting the stock to size began, gauging all like members to these Rods.


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## Woodmonkey (25 May 2014)

Some useful tips, keep it coming!


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## Stimpi (25 May 2014)

Thanks for the comment woodmonkey but I have to tell you it does go a bit wrong.


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## Stimpi (25 May 2014)

All the cross rails ready for making tongued and grooved joints






Forming the grooves with the router using, a ¼” bit. A tip is to use a second timber longer than the machined piece as a lead in for the router fence. After routing with the fence off one face turn the stock round and rout again, This ensures the groove is central.






This is a one off setting for the fence and care was taken in setting it. First I set the thickness width of the ply with a mortice gauge.






Set the gauge to register central in the width by from one face, pricking it turn it round and prick again and adjust. When the prong holes match tighten the screw and we are set to go but, not after the face sides and face edges have been selected and marked.











Its good housekeeping and it lends itself to accuracy which for angle work is what we are looking for. I cut my stub tenons on the RAS because I have one and the micro adjustment suits me. The table saw could be used but there is an issue with elf & safety due to removal of the riving knife and guard. Cutting by hand is always an option or even setting up a jig and using a router? There are 20 stub tenons to form which can be tedious. 






FIRST PROBLEM I cut all the 20 straight tenons no problem, it’s better to do all the cutting appertaining to one set up in one go as it is nigh impossible to reset exactly again second time. I set stops to form the diagonal cheek cuts and adjusted the angle of the RAS accordingly. First cut fine again no problems angles fine, cut on line. Re-set for the reverse angle, could I get it right? No I could not! I was using up would like it was going out of fashion. I couldn’t use short pieces due to Health and safety. Its dangerous putting short ends to an angled blade. I was running out of time and as I was due to go to London next day I was keen to get a glue up and try out my first panel for fit. So I reverted to doing the two offending cuts by hand.
This is the worse one of my attempts. The micro adjustment for horizontal angles on the RAS is non existent. I am going to have to think this one out for the next three top rails.






Tip for cutting tenon shoulders is to knife the line and cut a v with a chisel but when the shouder is on an angle cut against the grain.






I cut a ply panel for the infill and achieved my target for the glue up.






This did not go as sweet as I would have liked. I ended up with screwing a block cut at the correct angle. This is something else I would have to think about.


After the glue has set, the clean up and then the fitting of the ovolo beading. The mitres to the top angles require a special mitre block the angles being set with more geometry.






Mark any distance up the sides of the angle











Form arcs from these marks


Join the arcs and the corner together




The required angle




Set the bevel to match




Make a mitre block






All set for the trip to London tomorrow







Not perfect, close inspection of the top left joint is grinning slightly I have to think about the cramping procedures with regard to that block positioning. This discrepancy resulted in the bottom rail being out of square and thereby not fitting to the angle. A bit of planing cured this and the
panel now fits OK. One down three to go.


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## petermillard (26 May 2014)

Always interesting to see someone else's workflow. Don't really understand the aversion to tape measures - I'm all for story sticks etc... but using someone's floor tiles to mark out the panel widths seems bizarre to me - I'd just measure it and divide by four, personally.

Must confess to being a bit confuddled by what it is you're actually building - are they still pull-out cupboards, just with a panelled front, rather than the flush front you say the customer preferred? Either way, that panel seems a very snug fit - unless I've got the wrong end of it and it's a fixed panel, surely it'll bind if it's that snug?

As I say, always interesting to see other people's approach, and thanks for posting yours.

Cheers, Pete


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## Stimpi (26 May 2014)

Good points Pete, you must have noted a hint of cheekiness in my thread. We have all heard the adage "measure twice cut once" The boss said "You got it wrong again Mike. Did you measure twice?. Yes I says. Well what went wrong?. I measured it wrong. Then stop measuring or stop cutting your costing me a fortune!
A bit of fiction. The point I am making is for some work particularly staircase work accuracy is King. The joint where I had a slight difference measured say a 1/16th that's a growth rate of 3/16ths in a foot, Over the length of the string that an inch an a quarter. I used the tile floor because it was there and the results were spot on. The actual length is as dammit is to swearing six feet seven and a half or is it six foot seven and nine sixteenths? does it matter? In metric its 2.02 or is that 2.019? Divided by 4 is 0.505 there could have been more decimal places or even a reoccurring number but this is the point. Quicker than searching for my tape, measuring twice, swapping glasses to make sure I have read it correctly finding a scrap of wood or paper and pencil to write it down, searching for the calculator or phone to work out the division, is the battery charged? doing a long division sum I have the EXACT distance (don't know what it is but it's correct) and enjoying a nice cup of tea. If the tiled floor was not available I would have used the garage floor and drawn the A B line first and then the A C line. By the way this is how the stone masons of the middle ages set out there projects, on a clay floor.

Regards Mike B


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## Stimpi (26 May 2014)

> Ive cut it twice and its still too short





> Engineers work in thousands of an inch woodworkers get it right



Third door setting out the top section






Third Door glue up


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## petermillard (26 May 2014)

Hey Mike.



Stimpi":1diw5sh2 said:


> The point I am making is for some work particularly staircase work accuracy is King.


Don't disagree - I'd template each panel, personally, but as I said, interesting to see how others approach it...



> The actual length is as dammit is to swearing six feet seven and a half or is it six foot seven and nine sixteenths? does it matter? In metric its 2.02 or is that 2.019? Divided by 4 is 0.505 there could have been more decimal places or even a reoccurring number but this is the point.


OK, but I think the point is that if you're designing, fabricating and fitting the piece, then they can be whatever measurement you choose. As you say, 2020mm divided by 4 makes for 505mm panels; but if it's 2019mm, then 3# 505mm panels and a 504mm panel will also do the job. I work for some very pernickety customers, and I would defy any of them to spot a 1mm difference in panel width.



> By the way this is how the stone masons of the middle ages set out there projects, on a clay floor.


There's a lot to be said for the old methods, and I frequently draw out projects at full size myself. But there's also a lot to be said for modern, accurate tape measures, too e.g. Talmeter. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just different approaches, and I appreciate you posting yours.

Cheers, Pete.

Edited for clarity.


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## Bradshaw Joinery (27 May 2014)

An easy way to glue up the bevelled tops is to either glue two doors together, out of long stiles, upside down to each other, as the bevels oppose (there is less squaring up required also!) or a more wasteful method is to extend the stiles longer and have a rail the correct width to clamp on, then wedge/clamp from this to hold the diagonal. 

Keep up e good thread though!


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## Stimpi (28 May 2014)

> An easy way to glue up the bevelled tops is to either glue two doors together,



Brilliant! I never thought of that, Thanks for the tip I am on the last after a session in the Big City last night just got back and first job see if any posts, there was and you made my day.



> There's a lot to be said for the old methods,



Your correct Pete, I am not averse to measurement I earn my living as a surveyor, the tools of my trade are tapes, measuring rods, levels, theodolites etc. Joinery is a hobby which I enjoy, one point I want to stress. I required to construct four doors of the same width, this required machining nine cross rails to exactly the same length, four tricky diagonal top rail, again exactly identical including setting the stops on the RAS.
Measurement can have issues. Using geometry is exact, simple and effective. I did have problems in altering the second cut on the shouders which was resolved but, wasn't a measurement problem it was a use of machine problem.
Time to process the pictures from the latest visit.

Regards
Mike B


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## Stimpi (28 May 2014)

Three down one to go. Just think If I had thought of Olly’s tip it would be Four down. Now, let’s have a hanging!






Joints still OK






In position


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## Woodmonkey (28 May 2014)

Looking good, keep it coming!


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## Stimpi (29 May 2014)

Thanks for the interest Woodmonkey. Work will be delayed this week due to looking after Grandchildren while my siblings do real work.


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## steve b (29 May 2014)

awesome, keep the posts coming, i really want to do this in my new home, but have draws to pull out.

id really like to know what runners you will / would use for the draws etc

do you plan to hide any handles? if so how?

i thought about removing some handle shapes from the top of the faces but i think it would ruin the look, i suppose some kind of push in pop out solution would work but i dont know how well with big heavy draws.


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## Sharpy86 (29 May 2014)

Stimpi this is looking really good - thanks for posting.

This is looking a lot more technical than my project so far - which isn't suprising!

I'm making mine out of MDF sheets, and have so far made the carcases (3 of them). I will then fit a shaker style front on each drawer (a bit like how a kitchen drawer is made). The shaker style is going to be created by gluing 6mm MDF borders onto a 12mm front - I know its cheating, but rails and floating panels are well out of my skillset!


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## steve b (29 May 2014)

do you have a work in progress thread sharpy?


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## Sharpy86 (29 May 2014)

I don't have one at the moment, no.

However, if people are interested, I have taken a few photos that I could share.

I'm 'working' from home tomorrow, so will have the perfect opportunity to put something together.


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## Stimpi (29 May 2014)

> However, if people are interested, I have taken a few photos that I could share.


 
Of course I or we are interested. Does the Pope have a balcony? 

If you are using MDF you will not be required to have each door exactly the same width. My client is still insistent on not having pull out drawers. I think is a mistake, a much better use of the area. My intention was to use swivel wheels on the front and non swivel on the back. Position them and then fix 2 x 1 rails to the floor butting on the out side of the wheels. For handles brass flush handles let into a rail. 

As previous post no work this week due to half term though did manage to do some more work on the allotment shed using reclaimed panels from this years storms. Still have a door to make kids had a great time at the allotment exploring the nearby woods.






Cheers
Mike B


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## Stimpi (29 May 2014)

Have been thinking how to form the base and wheels.






The front wheels wold swivel while the back ones are ridged. The floor batten at the Newel could be 1 1/2" x 3/4" and at point A

Regards
Mike B


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## steve b (30 May 2014)

would it not be as good to use some heavy duty draw runners?

or were you intending to have them run along the floor?


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## Stimpi (30 May 2014)

I was intending to run them on the floor. The client read my post still not sure regarding pull out drawers.


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## Stimpi (2 Jun 2014)

With the grandchildren back at school work on the under stair doors recommenced with assemble, glue up and cramping of the last door.







By now with muscle memory kicking in went together with no problems. Only hitch was I ran out of ply, only one panel so had a trip out to buy a cut piece.

Left to set and dry and then trimmed and sanded ready for my next trip to London.






Still in discussion with the client who basically only wants something to screen the clutter under the stairs but still wants it to look classy from the hall.

These are my latest thoughts on better space utilization.


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## Stimpi (4 Jun 2014)

I fitted and hung the fourth door after a trip to Screwfix for some hinges buying silver stainless steel which came with matching screws. I bought decent substantial hinges as I have concerns regarding the weight of these doors hung.






There was little amount of fitting required, the left hand stile required a slight scribe to the wall post and of course the top rail has to be bevelled back as the back edge grows as the door opens.

I only had time to hang one door due to other commitments and will fit others later in the week.


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## Stimpi (7 Jun 2014)

Only managed to fit one door mainly due to the client (a family member) insisting he wanted all the doors to open. BUT! the second door to open inwards! I could not get it through to him the geometry of the back edge growing as the door is opened. To give support to the third door I required a mullion inserting and to give this a position I had to plane off just less than a ¼” off each edge of every door. I did this using a small bench surface planer. It was a good job I had porridge for breakfast, lugging this up those stairs put a drain on my energy levels.

This planeing needed the removal of the door I had already hung which I would have had to do anyway. The end frame which had been plugged and screwed to the wall turned s out to be “Siporex” a light weight block used in the sixty’s So, this had to be taken off and a more positive fixing used.

Had difficulty in explaining how the top edge of the door grows when opened and is why we can’t have the 2nd door opening inwards.



Progress to date






Top of door showing bevel to accommodate top edge growth as door opens.






Will attempt to complete next week when hopefully the client will be at work.


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## chippy1970 (8 Jun 2014)

Wouldnt it be better if you had hinged the second door the other way ,with the knuckles on the inside. That way you wouldn't see them when it's closed and it will fold better.

That's how mine works, the second door is attached to the first with a piano hinge and the first is attached to the wall with concealed (blum) hinges. So from the outside mine looks like a plain wall.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


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## Stimpi (9 Jun 2014)

> Wouldn't it be better if you had hinged the second door the other way


It would work if it's better depends on its use, A Dyson is stored here under the stair the odds are it would be in the way. Opening outwards it doesn't matter. Its down to personal preference.


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## johnny (9 Jun 2014)

really enjoyed reading this project ,thanks for posting.
I've loved timber paneling ever since I bought an antique book as a student 'Building Construction Advanced Course Charles Mitchell (1919 9th Ed) ' 

Its an excellent solution to an awkward space . I hope you'll not be offended if I say that I think the large prominent hinges do detract slightly from the overall impression .


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## Stimpi (10 Jun 2014)

> I hope you'll not be offended if I say that I think the large prominent hinges do detract slightly from the overall impression .


Not offended but agree. What I was looking for in the hinge was first stainless steel strong enough to take the weight, which they do. At screwfix they looked OK but when on they do as you say detract from the desired image. I did have some piano hinges at home (big savings when you buy in bulk) (change to quantity) but there on now. Thanks for the interest though its appreciated makes it all worth while.
Foot note, Maybe if I had not been so pedantic regarding not using a rule or tape on this project I would have realised these hinges are too big?
This section is called mistakes and this is one to add to those already made
Mike B


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## johnny (12 Jun 2014)

Mike please don't apologise they look fantastic and are very practical. I'm sure the clients are very pleased with the end result.

I've tried to find hinge solutions to various projects myself in the past and not found anything completly invisible . Modern piano hinges all seem so poor quality and rust as soon as you breathe on them .
I did think once about using hidden sprung 'swing bar hinges' like the old saloon doors but haven't actually tried them yet.

Lovely write up and I've enjoyed following your progress thanks for posting.
Johnny


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## Woodmonkey (12 Jun 2014)

Nice work stimpi. Looking forward to seeing it all finished. Will you be painting it?


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## Stimpi (12 Jun 2014)

> Will you be painting it?


 
Now there's a question. You may have worked out the client is my beloved son. There is a trend these days particularly in the South to not decorate but move into a property that's decorated. 

Remarks of, I think this room needs a lick of paint, falls on deaf ears. My other offspring are no different. So will this project get him moving? I don't know. 

Another alternative view is I have recently bought an air compressor with paint sprayer which I have no experience in using. Will this be a good project to learn on but. There's always a but. Would mean bringing them back to Sussex. This may not be bad thing as his Mum is always complaining he doesn't visit enough. Then his partner has given him an alternative paint or I leave. Now there are times and situations you don't get involved in.

Mike B


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## Stimpi (15 Jun 2014)

The two large doors folding back work OK but if the left hand door is not supported by a gentle push with the left hand as one opens with the right hand there is a tendency for the doors to jam. Not much but its there and therefore with much discussion it was decided to insert vertical hanging posts for the remaining doors.

Vertical hanging post





This required taking off a ¼” off the remaining doors except the last door where 3/16” was removed.
This led to consideration in the inletting of the hinges. The stainless steel screws being 1½” long into ¾” material.


In my part of the West Riding of Yorkshire it was the custom to set hinges fully into the door and the other leaf on the face of the frame. Joiners from other areas would comment on this telling us if we wanted to work for Wimpey Homes you would have to learn to set into the frame. The bonus target at that time was to hang 8 doors a day. Letting just into the frame is half the work and we made good money hanging doors, especially if we had fixed the frames. Leaving the latch leg loose also allowed taking out twist. I thought some of you would be interested in the process.

Marking the position using a marking gauge and knife.
















You can observe the chips pushing up. I had to sharpen frequently not to keep the edge sharp (which helped) but the chisel was picking up a load of resin from the timber which was setting to a hard shell.











The door hung in position






Could be me but they do look better, not as sticky outer as the others.


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## johnny (15 Jun 2014)

nicely done !
Its a shame sometimes when we have to compromise the simple purity of our designs to accommodate practicalities but needs must I suppose.
Thanks for the hinge guide ,much appreciated. I cannot believe the number of doors I have butchered over the years simply for want of finding out how the job should be done properly. #-o #-o

Your bonus target of 8x doors a day reminded me of my days as a Plumber when for a complete installation of roof tank,Hot water cylinder , bathroom suite, kitchen sink and stop/drain tap and all associated service pipes and wastes we earned the princely sum of £33.00 ! :shock: Not surprisingly I invariably managed to complete the lot in one long days work.


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## Stimpi (15 Jun 2014)

Thanks for the comments johnny, since working on the lump has been made legal I don't think any one is on Bonus rates anymore though I can still remember some of the going rates from long ago. Window cording for example 20 minutes a sash. If you had not mastered continuous cording you were in debt.

To continue all the doors are now hung but here's a Danger Warning!

In beveling off the top edge be careful in not slipping off as when nearly complete the point is sharp with little area for the sole of the plane resulting in the project being stained British Red Pine. Ouch!






I bought one of these from Screwfix they were on the collection counter as a special offer. An angled screwdriver for tight corners I can’t recommend one.






This is all the doors hung, ready for painting before ironmongery fixed, I fancy touch latches, £7.64 for a pack of five at Screwfix. No handles or protrusions. Handles could mean magnetic catches.


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## Stimpi (23 Jun 2014)

Not much to show this week but I have been busy on the project preparing for decorating, sanding woodwork and washing down with sugar soap.

I am unscrewing a door to take back to practice spray painting, somthing I have never done before.


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## Triggaaar (23 Jun 2014)

Great thread - another project I'll have to tackle one day.


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## Stimpi (25 Jun 2014)

Thanks Triggaaar the encouragement makes it worth while. Will look forward to your W.I.P. when you have a go.

I made a start on making a spraying booth from ripping’s and polythene sheet in a space between the back of the workshop and the fence. This is one of those places that is hidden from view and becomes a dumping ground for items that should really go off to the tip. Even when cleared I couldn’t get a start as there are five Holly trees with branches overhanging into my garden that had to be trimmed back and then taken to recycling.
Finally got started, all suited and booted.






As stated, never done spraying before, it took one hour to set up, five minutes to spray and one hour to clean and pack up. Not satisfied with the results either.







First suspending the door from a hook was a bad idea, kept spinning round, could not get an even coat despite watching all the videos on u tube. Needed somewhere to put the spray gun because you cant put it down if you have to make adjustments for what ever reason where do you put the gun?

So for my second attempt I got a little bit more organized. First task was to make some form of holder for the gun and this is the first thing that came to mind.







And this is it in use. Worked O.K. will look closer to make improvements but for now will suffice. Also got plenty of cleaning gear to hand. A quick scan of U Tube (must remember to put the hose over my shoulder).






Results much better (not perfect) but better.






Closer inspection shows what looks like a run but its not. It was silly me seeing a spot of dust tried to flick away with my finger which resulted in bursting the forming skin. Lesson learnt “don’t touch!” First lesson was when starting to spray there’s a temptation to target the object. No! fire above it and then come on to the target.
Close inspection.






Inspection next day it was still there but not as noticeable a bit of sanding is in order. This is the undercoat.

Have brought the other doors back to Sussex cant wait for attempt three.


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## johnny (25 Jun 2014)

thats not a bad first attempt actually. You are making all the usual mistakes but learning from them . :wink: 

Might I suggest that you thin the paint a little more and you should be aiming to put several coats on maybe 4-5 thin coats or even more and allow for the coats to dry between spraying.
Ideally the main flat areas would benefit from some wet and dry between coats so that you end up with a super smooth top coat 
it looks like you are trying to cover and get depth all in the first coat by going back over wet paint in an effort to build thickness.

if I were tackling that I would suspend the panel such that I could walk all around it and spray without stopping.
Start with the edges first, then a light spray of all the mouldings then the 2x middle panels then finally the sides just as you would with a paint brush.


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## Stimpi (25 Jun 2014)

Wow! brilliant tips!  I will put them into practice tomorrow.
Thanks
Mike B


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## Stimpi (28 Jun 2014)

Back in Sussex first task is remove hinges,






Some more spraying.











And in London more decorating.











Have a target date of next Tuesday weather permitting, might do it :roll: .


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## Stimpi (2 Jul 2014)

All sprayed and ready to go. Worked till 9.00 pm a 12 hour day to hit the target of ready for Tuesday, hope the London end hit their targets.







No they had not, plus when arrived there were carpet layers working on the staircase. Another late finish of 9.00 pm with packing up and the journey back to Sussex. Had no time for a final photo’. Looks the same as unpainted except cleaner, whiter and brighter.


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## Stimpi (3 Jul 2014)

Client to choose ironmongery.


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## Harbo (3 Jul 2014)

Nice work - spoiled by the hinges - couldn't they have used more discreet ones?

Rod


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## Woodmonkey (3 Jul 2014)

Agreed, nice job but concealed hinges would've looked better


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## chippy1970 (12 Jul 2014)

Harbo":2mop3pvf said:


> Nice work - spoiled by the hinges - couldn't they have used more discreet ones?
> 
> Rod


Ditto


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## Stimpi (13 Jul 2014)

I did post earlier that I agree with your comments but I had bought them and fixed them so it was a Fait et complete

The saga goes on. This week end I visited my son and heir (to assist with decorations) and found he was turning the second door to open inwards and making a real ball of cotton of it. I had to rescue the situation which entailed an amount of patching and splicing. I will post pictures when I have sorted them out.


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## Stimpi (17 Jul 2014)

I have sorted out the photo’s taken last week in re fixing the hinges on the inside face of the second door. This was done by cutting the thin strip at the rear of the hinge with a fine Japanese saw and using a Stanley knife carefully parting it from the door attacking it from both sides. Prior to this a gauge mark was made on the back face. The Stanley knife did not intentionally go right through leaving the use of a chisel to carefully part this strip from the door. The resultant strip was turned round, glued and left over night to cure before re-fixing the hinge, a bit of light sanding with a touch up of paint.


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