# Jammed internal stopcock



## RogerS (25 Aug 2014)

Just got back from being away overnight and trying to undo the internal stopcock which is VERY VERY stiff. As in, it hurts my hand to try and undo it.

So before I resort to putting a spanner over the end for extra torque, snapping off the shaft and giving myself untold problems (as in the mains external stopcock is about a mile away and I'd also need to find the stopcock long thing that fits it), is there anything else I can try? Oil? WD40? Undo the gland and hope I can get some grease in before I flood the place?

TIA


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## carlb40 (25 Aug 2014)

I have never had much luck with seized stopcocks/ gate valves. I normally replace them or add a 2nd further up the line and leave the existing one alone.


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## RogerS (25 Aug 2014)

Mmm....I was afraid of that.


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## Zeddedhed (25 Aug 2014)

Heat?


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## themackay (25 Aug 2014)

carlb40":5yejef5r said:


> I have never had much luck with seized stopcocks/ gate valves. I normally replace them or add a 2nd further up the line and leave the existing one alone.



I had the same problem years ago did the above.


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## Ghengis (25 Aug 2014)

Slacken the gland nut 1st, a small nut at the base of the stem, they sometimes tighten up as you close off the tap, wd40 1st


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## Woodchips2 (25 Aug 2014)

I'd try spraying with WD40 or penetrating oil and leaving for half an hour, then support the valve with grips and gently try working the handle back and fore. I'd have a quick fit stop end handy just in case the valve shears off.

I try and remember to turn the stop valves on and off once a month when I put caustic soda down the drains.

Best of luck.

Regards Keith


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## Lons (25 Aug 2014)

All too common problem Rogerand as said usually end up replacing or adding additional. Recently did the same for my sons.

greese usually is a waste of time as it's due to calcium build up and anyway you wouldn't wish to get greese into your drinking water supply.

Sometimes loosening the gland nut slightly can ease the pressure and allow you to carefully work the shaft back and forth to release it then tighten up again but the issue will repeat itself in the future if you don't change the valve.

I work the valves in my own house regularly to try to stop it happening, especially the hot valve.

Bob


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## Flynnwood (25 Aug 2014)

A plumber can freeze the pipe and fit one of these further up the line in about 20 minutes.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pegler-ball-v ... 15mm/21289


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## Lons (25 Aug 2014)

Flynnwood":kjw16hp9 said:


> A plumber can freeze the pipe and fit one of these further up the line in about 20 minutes.
> 
> http://www.screwfix.com/p/pegler-ball-v ... 15mm/21289



Or... you can do it yourself almost as quickly and much cheaper if you buy a freeze spray kit as well.


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## Harbo (25 Aug 2014)

I had a problem a few yrs ago when we had an underfloor leak - the stopcock would not close off fully - what made it worse was that the external mains stopcock was jammed too! Had to call out the water board who ended up digging up the foot way very late at night to replace that.
Plumber cured leak and replaced stop cock which I now turn fairly regularly.
Water board fitted meter which saved us a tremendous amount as our house is highly rated.

Rod


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## RogerS (25 Aug 2014)

Trouble is I have no room further up the line without ripping a wall out


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## RogerS (25 Aug 2014)

Lons":1k0a8voz said:


> Flynnwood":1k0a8voz said:
> 
> 
> > A plumber can freeze the pipe and fit one of these further up the line in about 20 minutes.
> ...



But not on 22mm plastic pipe ! I'm OK here as it's metal.


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## Graham Orm (25 Aug 2014)

Use grips on the stem rather than turning the tap head. When you can, close it and fit a new one further upline. 

Tip: When opening a stop cock to leave indefinitely in the on position, turn until it stops then turn it back a quarter turn. This will stop it seizing in the open position.


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## Graham Orm (25 Aug 2014)

Looks like this is already a replacement tap, with the remains of one below the drain cock. It looks a recent tap and should be fine with a spanner on the tap head. However, get some large grips on the tap body so that it can't twist and rip off the pipe.

Once you get it moving keep working it an applying WD40. If you mess about with the gland nut you'll end up with a drip.


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## AndyT (25 Aug 2014)

It's no use to you now, but good advice to prevent this happening in future use is to open the stop tap fully then turn it back a quarter of a turn. They are much less likely to stick if not left at the end of their travel.


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## Graham Orm (25 Aug 2014)

AndyT":1a0yst5x said:


> It's no use to you now, but good advice to prevent this happening in future use is to open the stop tap fully then turn it back a quarter of a turn. They are much less likely to stick if not left at the end of their travel.



Keep up Andy.


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## AndyT (25 Aug 2014)

Grayorm":2mxp06oz said:


> AndyT":2mxp06oz said:
> 
> 
> > It's no use to you now, but good advice to prevent this happening in future use is to open the stop tap fully then turn it back a quarter of a turn. They are much less likely to stick if not left at the end of their travel.
> ...



Oops 

Great minds think alike!

(Greater ones read carefully...)


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## Graham Orm (25 Aug 2014)

AndyT":10humjvh said:


> Oops
> 
> Great minds think alike!
> 
> (Greater ones read carefully...)



:wink:


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## RogerS (25 Aug 2014)

Thanks Grayorm..you are right. It is a replacement. 

Subsequent research suggests that although it did turn off, it didn't actually turn off the water. So I'm not sure where to go next


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## Graham Orm (26 Aug 2014)

RogerS":1gstannn said:


> Thanks Grayorm..you are right. It is a replacement.
> 
> Subsequent research suggests that although it did turn off, it didn't actually turn off the water. So I'm not sure where to go next


See if the one below still works using a pair of grips but be sure to support the body of the tap with another pair. *EDIT* It's very important that you support the tap body properly with bigger grips than you use on the nut or you'll risk ripping the tap off the pipe......and that would be messy. The body of the tap will take a lot of undoing, an adjustable spanner would be better than grips on the nut. DON'T use heat, you risk damaging the seal. 

If using grips make sure you use them the right way round, they only work in one direction. It's called 'self wrapping action'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_wrench

The new tap looks too new for the washer to have disintegrated so my guess is that it's seized that you didn't actually close it. You need to shut off the water before the newer tap and take the body out first just to check the washer. Then get it in a vice and lubricate and work the tap until it works freely. Then put it all back. It's important that the tap is in the open position when you screw the body of the tap back in place.

If the bottom tap wont shut off the supply or you don't fancy it, then the only alternative is to get the supply turned off. If you do that get yourself a new tap. Rather than repairing the old one, just do as described above and replace the old tap body. *EDIT* In fact now I think about it you might be as well replacing the tap body either way. *Very important that the tap is in the open position when you screw the body back in.*

A freezer kit wouldn't be a good idea on this. The ones you buy in the shops are not brilliant and you have limited time before the ice plug melts. Once water starts passing the plug it won't re-freeze. I served my time with North West Water. We had monster freezer kits that came with a large cylinder and worked well. I've tried over the counter ones and conditions have to be perfect.


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## RogerS (26 Aug 2014)

Many thanks, Grayorm. Good advice. The one problem I foresee is that I have no vertical movement or slack in the pipe which, of course, fits inside both ends of the valve. It's all a bit tight. Might be able to remove the drain cock which might give me enough wiggle room.


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## Graham Orm (26 Aug 2014)

RogerS":srzqvq2i said:


> Many thanks, Grayorm. Good advice. The one problem I foresee is that I have no vertical movement or slack in the pipe which, of course, fits inside both ends of the valve. It's all a bit tight. Might be able to remove the drain cock which might give me enough wiggle room.



You don't need to replace the whole thing, just the tap top. Grip the body of the tap (the bit that runs in line with the pipe) and undo the largest nut on the tap top. The body stays in place on the pipe.

Self wrapping action :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_wrench


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## Graham Orm (26 Aug 2014)

It's very a very simple mechanism and no springs will fly out!


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## Eric The Viking (26 Aug 2014)

Roger,

It's a bit late now I fear but anyway:

Put something like a bucket or ice cream tub beneath the stop cock. Pour a kettle full of boiling water over the outside of the body of it (concentrate on the bit between the gland nut and the main part of the tap), then immediately try the tap (with a gloved hand!).

Regarding greasing the gland nut: In days past they were stuffed with tallow-greased hemp. You can achieve much the same by using hemp and vaseline instead, and that's entirely food-safe.

Regarding replacing the thing altogether: I have a Monument tool, designed for belling-out 22mm pipe for straight joints (no coupler required):




This is (mainly) a really stupid idea of a tool (it takes ages; it saves pennies), but it does have one brilliantly useful purpose: bash it through a 22mm straight capilliary coupler (NO SOLDER RINGS!), and it will knock out the pinched part in the middle. This makes a 22mm coupler you can SLIDE ALONG A PIPE.

I came up with this because the solenoid valves on our CH fail in competition with each other every autumn it seems. They're impossible to properly replace without cutting the pipe either side.

I'll leave the rest to your imagination, suffice it to say, it works a treat. 

Email me - I'll even let you borrow it, but frankly they're so cheap it's hardly worth the postage. Toolstation used to sell them but the silly so-and-sos now only do the 15mm version, which really is a pointless object.

E.


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## CHJ (26 Aug 2014)

Poor installation trapping a prime control device in a rigidly fixed pipe run.

If it comes down to a replacement stop cock, plumb it in with an offset with at least one compression corner joint so that it can be released and removed for replacement.


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## RogerS (26 Aug 2014)

Thanks Eric. Duly ordered.


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## Graham Orm (26 Aug 2014)

There really is no need to replace the tap. Just screw the top off and put a new top on it. 2 Minutes maximum once the water is off. You're making it into a huge job with lots more to go wrong.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2014)

We used to buy the couplers without the ring so they would slide down a pipe - I can't imagine you can't still buy them. As Grayorm said you should be able to replace just the tap insert.


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## Eric The Viking (26 Aug 2014)

Good point on replacing the insert, but I've tried to match them in the past and found it pretty hard if the stop tap is old.

I have looked for couplers without a pip in the middle (or a ring on the older ones), and the only things I could find were called "repair" fittings - long brass thing with a compression olive at each end. We do have a few decent plumbers merchants in the city too (try getting 1"BSP to 22mm compression that _isn't_ gas taper on the BSP thread - I managed to find some!).

By the way, if you do bash the pips out, it's worth cooking up the coupler first (I usually hang it off a coathanger and cook it with MAPP gas). This anneals the copper (removes the work hardening and makes it more malleable again). It's not the same crystalline structure as steel, so no quenching is necessary (the pre-bronze age of copper plane irons was mercifully short it seems), but you can quench if you want to get on with the job - doesn't affect the annealing, or so I've been told. 

E.


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## Graham Orm (26 Aug 2014)

It's a fairly recent tap, should be no problem.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2014)

Quenching copper (like silver) keeps it soft - opposite to steel.


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## Graham Orm (26 Aug 2014)

Theres always these if you can find one in 22mm http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-15mm-x-95 ... 19be5286e6


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## Eric The Viking (26 Aug 2014)

phil.p":3t1mraco said:


> Quenching copper (like silver) keeps it soft - opposite to steel.


It doesn't matter how you cool copper or silver (within reason):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2014)

I would differ with Wiki on that one - I've beaten quite a bit of copper and silver, and I've always been taught that if you choose to harden it you air cooled it, if you wished to work it you quenched it quickly. It's always worked that way for me - if for instance you made a pin for a brooch that needed to be sprung, you never quenched it.


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## Eric The Viking (26 Aug 2014)

phil.p":1317ykrh said:


> I would differ with Wiki on that one - I've beaten quite a bit of copper and silver, and I've always been taught that if you choose to harden it you air cooled it, if you wished to work it you quenched it quickly. It's always worked that way for me - if for instance you made a pin for a brooch that needed to be sprung, you never quenched it.



Well it certainly does anneal if you quench it, so we can agree on that 

It was actually my dad, who's in his eighties now but knows a thing or two about metallurgy, who originally told me it didn't matter many years ago (he also taught me the rudiments of plumbing and soldering as a child). 

The wikipedia entry was the first reference I could quickly find.

E.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2014)

Yes, it's the degree of softness rather than one being soft and the other hard.


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