# 3mm Bevel Edged Chisel - Really?



## JonnyW (2 Oct 2015)

I thought I'd put this question to the forum members, just out of interest really.

I recently bought a set of 11 Ashley Iles bevel edged chisels (I wanted a really nice set of ferule handled chisels) - I'm not going to do a tool review because I'm not worthy, nor am I going to apologise or explain myself to the 'buy them when you need them' woodworkers, but all I can say is they are absolutely fantastic and unlike my Lie Nielsen chisels, removed several parts of my fingers whilst taking the protective wax/plastic off their ends! 

The point of this post - if there is a point - is the 3mm chisel. I assume it is in demand or why would they keep making them, but I would like to know what you guys use the 3mm chisel/spike for? or what work have you used them for in the past?. I bet you after posting this, I'll need it at the weekend!

After buying one a month a long while ago, I currently own 9 of the Lie Nielsen bevel edged socket chisels - ok I wanted them and they are, like all of LN tools, something so beautiful I'd easily place them in a cabinet in my livingroom. My 'get the whole set' obsessive nature (see my lack of apology above), has me fighting a personal battle - should I stump up the £53 for the 3.2mm chisel I will probably never use!.

At this point I'll have to admit to you guys that some chisels in both sets have yet to be used. And I say in defence of that - "yeh but I have the whole set!" :lol: 

Regards

Jonny


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## AndyT (2 Oct 2015)

This thread covered the ground quite well - https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/teensy-chisel-t90347.html.

The main uses are for tiny or very slender dovetails or for inlay work.


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## Adam9453 (2 Oct 2015)

I bought two 3mm ashley lies chisels at the recent european woodworking show which i'm going to re-grind to make a pair of handed slender skew dovetail chisels. 
They'll be for clearer out the tiniest of corners of dovetails.
Have to say I was so impressed by the two I bought at the show, I immediately ordered a 19mm one after I tested the 3mm ones.
Beautifully sharp and lovely in the hand.


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## Beau (2 Oct 2015)

Reguly use a 3mm chisel for cleaning out narrow rebates. For fitting the bottom of boxes I use a stopped rebate which I cut with wing cutter in the router but the ends have a radius so 3mm chisel to the rescue.


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## JonnyW (2 Oct 2015)

I'll read the thread Andy thanks.

Thanks for the reply guys - very interesting.

Jonny


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## JonnyW (2 Oct 2015)

Just read the thread Andy. Yep you're right, it covers the ground very well. 

I understand the need for a chisel that size now. My dovetails are yet to enter the world of 'small, tight or intricate!' - the dovetails shown in the pictures are truly works of art.

Inspired.

Jonny


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## Jacob (2 Oct 2015)

JonnyW":1nxrb8v0 said:


> .... should I stump up the £53 for the 3.2mm chisel I will probably never use....


There's nothing that chisel will do which can't be done by something else a fraction of the price. So if you are into ornamental tools then buy it - if into woodwork buy wood.


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## Eric The Viking (2 Oct 2015)

Got a 1/8" one recently (3.1-ish mm), secondhand, but looking almost new from Bristol Design. Found lots of situations already when it's been really useful:





It's by "Storm", boxwood handle (I think) and bevelled. It's very deep, more like a mortice chisel in section, lengthways. It is a fiddle to sharpen (it's very sharp, but not very square, presently). 

IIRC, it was about 12 quid, possibly slightly more.

E.


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## JonnyW (2 Oct 2015)

Nice one Eric, thanks for that. Lovely looking thing!

Jonny


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## woodbrains (2 Oct 2015)

Hello,

Yep, I even have and use a 1/16 in chisel. If there is a gap that small that needs wood to be removed, then it will get used. You could argue that you should design to make life easier, and not make small joints; I suppose this is logical, but then you should design what you want, then get the right tool. I can't see what tool other than a chisel that will do the work, though the right chisel should not have to cost 50 odd pounds. 

Mike.


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## bugbear (2 Oct 2015)

Eric The Viking":2j2alnbp said:


> It's by "Storm".



"Stormont", I suspect, going by the names of known tool makers, and the grind mark after "storm".

"Storm" would be cooler though.  

BugBear


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## JohnPW (2 Oct 2015)

Eric The Viking":2fkzqqde said:


> Got a 1/8" one recently (3.1-ish mm), secondhand, but looking almost new from Bristol Design. Found lots of situations already when it's been really useful:
> View attachment 1
> 
> It's by "Storm", boxwood handle (I think) and bevelled. It's very deep, more like a mortice chisel in section, lengthways. It is a fiddle to sharpen (it's very sharp, but not very square, presently).
> ...



My guess is it's a Stormont.


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## D_W (2 Oct 2015)

A chisel that size is handy for plane making, but even more so if it's one of the older tools that has a strong vertical cross section as the old narrow chisels did. 

I've got chisels that spec around 1/10th inch (they are old socket chisels and not made to a precise size), and a japanese chisel that's 1 1/2mm (admittedly, I haven't used the latter, but it was $15). As I'm further along now, if I needed something set up like a chisel that was that thin, I'd just grind part of a saw plate or harden a short piece of .08 tool steel and stuff it in a small handle.


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## Eric The Viking (2 Oct 2015)

Thanks BB and JohnPW - I'm not clued-up on hand tool makers, as you can tell ;-)


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## JonnyW (2 Oct 2015)

Christ I love this forum! I have absolutely no idea why I never joined years ago. 

Thanks guys for the very interesting replies - and I mean that. An education. 

I'm an absolute tool geek. I buy them because I absolutely love them. I would love to tell you that I use every last one of them regularly, and that I know exactly what they are for - but I don't. Sometimes just the having them is enough! Very twisted logic, buts that's addiction for you!

Thanks guys again. 

Jonny


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## Jacob (2 Oct 2015)

Eric The Viking":21bubg97 said:


> ..... It's very deep, more like a mortice chisel in section, lengthways. It is a fiddle to sharpen (it's very sharp, but not very square, presently).....


Narrow chisels are much easier to sharpen if you draw them towards you across the oil stone rather than pushing them away. For some reason it's easier to keep them square and of course they don't dig in. So you pull it towards you starting at about 25º and raising it to 30 as you go.


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## Kalimna (2 Oct 2015)

Johnny - Given that you're a self-confessed tool geek, I urge you to stay well away from Blue Spruce Toolworks (chisels), Webzloff Saws, Sauer and Steiner (infill planes), Philly Planes (wooden planes). There are others, but that's a reasonable start for places to avoid 

Cheers,
Adam


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## Cheshirechappie (2 Oct 2015)

Must admit I find I use small chisels quite a bit, both 1/8" and 1/16". The 1/8" is such an easy chisel to push when paring that you can control it nicely, perhaps using a wider chisel to take off the last shaving and even up any raggedness to the cut. 

Another use (which I learned on this forum, courtesy of David Charlesworth) is the clearing of the last bit in the corners of a half-lap dovetail (half-blind in some parts of the world). True that it undercuts a bit, but since it's only very narrow, the undercut is negligable. Of course the real tool geek would have on hand both an 1/8" AND a pair of skew chisels, just so that all the bases were covered....

Another sharpening tip - use the edge of the stone to sharpen narrow chisels. A groove or two on the edges hardly matters, but it would on the face. It does take a long time for such grooves to develop, though, because there's so little to come off narrow chisels to sharpen them that it doesn't take very long at all. Indeed, you have to be a bit careful not to take too much off.


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## bugbear (2 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":31tpohw2 said:


> Another sharpening tip - use the edge of the stone to sharpen narrow chisels. A groove or two on the edges hardly matters, but it would on the face.



I just used a washita and an arkansas - too hard even for a narrow chisel to make a groove. Easy!

(but yeah - they'd cut into some fine stones e.g. slate really easily)

BugBear


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## JonnyW (3 Oct 2015)

Thank you for the advice Adam, much appreciated. I have been tempted by the Blue Spruce chisels I must admit, just to buy one to see if the tool and quality, could in any way justify the price. 

Thanks guys.

Jonny


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## Kalimna (3 Oct 2015)

Well, if you are ever near Stirling, feel free to pop in and try some. They are lovely things indeed.

Cheers,
Adam


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## Austinisgreat (5 Oct 2015)

JonnyW,

I'm with you ....... Tool envy - whether you need it or not! I'm getting a bit addicted myself too!

Cheers,

Andrew


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 Oct 2015)

Several years ago I offered to make a 1/8" dovetail chisel for a woodworking mate. He turned up with a length of HSS (M2) 1/8" square rod, and this just happened to be perfect as you can grind it without fear of altering the hardness of the steel. He also brought along a small piece of Lilac for the handle, which was not a great choice as it was a little "mushy" and did not come out crisp, even with sanding.

The sides of the blade were ground on a 8" dry grinder wheel.












Give this a go. It's great fun. Here is a set I made from poor Stanley 750s (unhandled and rusty), adding new handles and grinding the sides to fine lands. The 1/8" began life as a 3/8", and the 5/8" was a 3/4".






Regards from Perth

Derek


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## JonnyW (6 Oct 2015)

I am such a lover of socket chisels. Really nice job there Derek - they look lovely!.

Jonny


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## Bluekingfisher (6 Oct 2015)

Jonny - If you like em' buy em'. There are detractors who will say you are wasting your time or money buying tools you will not regularly use. And...................their point is? 

If you have the disposable income then buy as you will old boy. If you receive great pleasure in both buying and handling the tools, or if having them in a display case for visual pleasure floats your boat then so what? Are you depriving others the opportunity who could use them? of course not. 

I can't believe some have the audacity to critisize those interested in buying tools for their own pleasure, whatever that is. Perhaps it is jealousy, or the fact they are not in a position financially to purchase new and consider buyig tools other than out of neccesity folly.

Buy, buy and buy away.

Good luck and enjoy

David


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## JonnyW (6 Oct 2015)

Thanks for the kind words David. I have collected old and new tools for some years now, and I apologise if I've given the impression that I'm a millionaire that collects things due to fanciful folly enjoyed by folk with money. I would hate if that was the impression fellow forum members had of me.

That is not the case; my purchases are made with what little salary I have left at the end of the month - my Lie Nielsen obsession for example, usually involves months of gathering pennies together, as my one LN chisel a month purchases can attest to. 

But that is how I like spending my left over cash - rather than spending £60 in a pub in a night, I'd rather buy a LN chisel for £42. I'll still have the LN chisel the next day! - oh and enough for a half decent bottle of red.

Thankfully we are all different. 

Jonny


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## iNewbie (6 Oct 2015)

Jonny you don't have to explain or justify what you purchase with _your_ hard earned to anyone - if someone else has an issue thats their issue. They're tools and are made to be purchased.


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## Jacob (6 Oct 2015)

Bluekingfisher":3j0gccup said:


> Jonny - If you like em' buy em'. There are detractors who will say you are wasting your time or money buying tools you will not regularly use. And...................their point is?....


The point is; if it's just doing woodwork that you are interested in these expensive ornamental tools are rarely necessary. It's up to you don't let us stop you frittering your money away! :lol:


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 Oct 2015)

Jacob, I've long wanted to ask you how many bikes you ride, and what you have 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (6 Oct 2015)

Two.
One 12 year old Dawes Galaxy tourer - a heavy bike for touring and carrying camping gear etc. Also does for trails to some extent
One light road bike for day rides, audaxes etc. It's called an "Audax" bike which means light weight tourer, not quite a road racing bike.
Both get used a lot and neither are ornaments!

PS if you wanted to catch me out as a gear freak you should have asked bout my musical instrument collection!


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## CStanford (6 Oct 2015)

JonnyW":a4x1jdnd said:


> Thanks for the kind words David. I have collected old and new tools for some years now, and I apologise if I've given the impression that I'm a millionaire that collects things due to fanciful folly enjoyed by folk with money. I would hate if that was the impression fellow forum members had of me.
> 
> That is not the case; my purchases are made with what little salary I have left at the end of the month - my Lie Nielsen obsession for example, usually involves months of gathering pennies together, as my one LN chisel a month purchases can attest to.
> 
> ...



One hopes (presumes?) that wood isn't getting lost in the shuffle somehow.

Nothing like the cook poaching a hot dog in a $400 vintage French copper pot. No money left for ingredients.


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## JonnyW (6 Oct 2015)

I do believe you are right Jacob. However, fritter away I will. 

For the record, 90% of the antique tools I've bought, have been used at some point (and I don't woodwork for a living). But I stand by what I've already said - some of my tools I've bought are so beautiful and so beautifully made, I could easily just stand and look at them - I have also been known to smell them. I'll get my jacket!

Just need to find away they can all be packed in to my coffin!

My boss is an obsessional cycler - I think he owns 5 or 6 bikes (of the Trek kind). I bet you I could kit out my workshop several times over with the money he's spent on them and other bikes over the years. However in his defence, he does use them all and they are not ornaments. 

Jonny


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 Oct 2015)

> PS if you wanted to catch me out as a gear freak you should have asked bout my musical instrument collection!



Soooo .... ?  

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## JonnyW (6 Oct 2015)

CStanford":1wsfwvir said:


> JonnyW":1wsfwvir said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the kind words David. I have collected old and new tools for some years now, and I apologise if I've given the impression that I'm a millionaire that collects things due to fanciful folly enjoyed by folk with money. I would hate if that was the impression fellow forum members had of me.
> ...



Ha ha ha. Fair comment there. My tool collecting has never been to the detriment of anything else in my life - wood purchasing included.

Jonny


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## Bluekingfisher (6 Oct 2015)

That is pure and simple the joy of having a hobby - buy what you want when you want it. No need to justify or clarify, if the actual woodworking comes second to that big deal, its what brings joy and peace is key, right?

Whether you have money or not is not the issue, just don't feel embarassed if you do, some would see that as a negative, like I say, jealousy..............its's a terrible virtue  

David


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## CStanford (6 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Jacob, I've long wanted to ask you how many bikes you ride, and what you have
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



Cycling really requires no extras. You get on the bike and ride. One can own woodworking tools but then the most expensive part has yet to be addressed - the wood - and an ongoing expense at that for the hobbyist who isn't passing this through to a client. The tools are a drop in the bucket, or should be.


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## bugbear (6 Oct 2015)

CStanford":18t5rhrm said:


> Cycling really requires no extras. You get on the bike and ride.



And people say Americans can't do irony or sarcasm.

You, sir, have nailed it!

BugBear


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 Oct 2015)

CStanford":282c9pow said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, I've long wanted to ask you how many bikes you ride, and what you have
> ...



Charles, ask Jacob what his Audax costs new. I'll eat your shorts if it does not cost new a lot more than new set of LN #4, #5 1/2, #7, full roll of LN chisels, #60 1/2 block plane, and a couple of LN saws. 

It is just different set of priorities. I wish Jacob all the pleasure in the world cycling around on his hobby horse. I'm sure that he wishes me well on mine. 

Now about that brewing equipment you have ... 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (6 Oct 2015)

aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 Oct 2015)

CStanford":3ko0pfu8 said:


> aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.



Ah Charlie, but in the morning the nice and shiny tools are still there .. :lol: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## D_W (6 Oct 2015)

CStanford":drpqa4hv said:


> aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.



Money for alcohol - wines and beer - is essentially a complete waste. You're left with nothing other than the ability to prove to someone that you have alcohol in your system with a urine test. My grandmother called it "drinking money". Certainly, some folks get a lot of joy out of it, but it is an unnecessary waste in most senses of the word unless it's free.

I did the road bike thing for a long time when I was single, but I lived next to a five mile loop with offshoot loops that had limited traffic (and it was nice). It probably cost me $2000 to ride 10,000 miles over that time. And none since. It can be cheap, but most people I saw didn't allow it to be. Perhaps it was a little more than $2,000, but whatever. It's not hard to buy $2,000 of wood at one time. (and there are more second and third world manufacturers of bikes now, so it can be *really* cheap). I worked with a guy who had $3,200 worth of wheels on his road bike. I hope he never hits a pothole. (He rides obsessively - maybe to an unhealthy level, so I can't say he's not getting his money's worth - and at 50 pounds heavier than I was when I was single, I'm too fat to ride in the drop position, anyway - and there's *no* other way to ride a bike than drop position or on triathlon-type handles). 

We can always sling barbs at each other about money wasted. I've wasted more than my share, and recognize there are things that are a complete waste to me (french pots, wine, expensive cuts of meat for regular occasions, granite counter tops, expensive clothes) that other people value highly. 

If someone wants to buy 100 pounds of malleable cast iron tools, and the pinch pennies using white pine, that's fine, I guess. I wouldn't want to do it. As much as I like to do the things that I like to specifically do, I can't imagine being that interested in someone else dictating what I should like or not like. 

At the same time, who is really hurt by bad advice? (at least advice that is a bad fit for someone based on what they want to do or will want to do). Beginners, I suppose. But beginners don't usually come into the hobby with a specific goal in mind, and they usually want to buy themselves up a level or two because the paint by numbers thing can be had. (buy tool X, set it up like Y). As opposed to what I'd suggest, which is find an old try plane, an old jack plane (wood) and a stanley 4 and make a new wedge for the two old wooden planes and refit anything that needs it. That's not very practical advice for a newbie. 

All that said, I've seen just as many examples of the "wood stash" that costs the owner of the wood stash money. I can think of at least half a dozen widows who have sold the stashes of their husbands off, or retirees who are still sitting on theirs because they wasted money on buying it and building the space to store it, and now they are finding out it isn't worth what they paid. My MIL, who hears me talk about how hard it is to get nice wood, called yesterday about a guy near her house who is retiring from architectural work. Somewhere over the years, he acquired a bunch of exotic wood and built a building that had under floor climate controlled storage to stash his best stuff. Nobody wants it. 

Just about the only way you can be guaranteed to not waste money is not to spend it at all. 

And if anyone can afford to spend money on 100 pounds of new cast iron tools, I'll bet they could afford the wood if they really wanted it. There aren't too many who buy the french pot and then can only afford a hot dog. They eat the hot dog by choice.


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Oct 2015)

D_W":1wdjnb3k said:


> Just about the only way you can be guaranteed to not waste money is not to spend it at all.



Do you by any chance have ancestors from Northern England? Lancashire or Yorkshire, perchance?

(Sign over the door of a corner shop in a small Lancashire mill town, "Gerrit spent. They dunt pu' pockets i' shrahds" Translation - Get it spent. They don't put pockets in shrouds.)


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## Bluekingfisher (6 Oct 2015)

Jacob":2hh32fmd said:


> Bluekingfisher":2hh32fmd said:
> 
> 
> > Jonny - If you like em' buy em'. There are detractors who will say you are wasting your time or money buying tools you will not regularly use. And...................their point is?....
> ...



I don't believe you, coming on here, bumming and bragging of your, not one but two expensive road bikes, AND THEN, rubbing salt in the wound with your not so subtle mention of your mahoosive musical instrument collection.........sheesh, some folk. :roll: :wink: 

As Derek put it, a case of priorities.

David


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## D_W (6 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":1dpa4xgb said:


> D_W":1dpa4xgb said:
> 
> 
> > Just about the only way you can be guaranteed to not waste money is not to spend it at all.
> ...



No, they're a bunch of germans and swiss-germans (that's what we call them here, swiss from the german speaking area of switzerland). 

Not the urban types, but the rural types, and they're as stingy as you can imagine. Or as a coworker of mine used to say "they can deprive themselves of all pleasure without any trouble". 

I'm not as stingy as them, not close, but I guess I'm a lot more frugal than the average person in the city where I live (Pittsburgh, Sheffield of the US, whatever you'd like to call it). I drink a few beers from time to time, but they come out of a box or case, and not out of a tap, and I leave wine drinking to my wife and encourage her choice of sweet (cheap) wines. I like liquor and a dry red, but not as much as I like the money they cost.


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## bugbear (6 Oct 2015)

Of course, in a commercial sense, _all_ money spent on a hobby - be it golf, tennis, cycling, fishing, woodwork, sailing, whatever - is wasted.

It brings nothing but pleasure.  

BugBear


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## Bluekingfisher (6 Oct 2015)

D_W":29nmaalb said:


> CStanford":29nmaalb said:
> 
> 
> > aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.




All that said, I've seen just as many examples of the "wood stash" that costs the owner of the wood stash money. I can think of at least half a dozen widows who have sold the stashes of their husbands off, or retirees who are still sitting on theirs because they wasted money on buying it and building the space to store it, and now they are finding out it isn't worth what they paid. My MIL, who hears me talk about how hard it is to get nice wood, called yesterday about a guy near her house who is retiring from architectural work. Somewhere over the years, he acquired a bunch of exotic wood and built a building that had under floor climate controlled storage to stash his best stuff. Nobody wants it. 

You mean you actually sit and converse with SWMBO's mother on the subject of procuring timber?

You are indeed a true enthusiast.

David


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## D_W (6 Oct 2015)

Bluekingfisher":fp3g3s73 said:


> D_W":fp3g3s73 said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":fp3g3s73 said:
> ...



They live fairly close to Hearne and a bunch of amish and mennonite mills. Plus, there was a guy who had an internet advertisement a few minutes from their house claiming that he had a lot of air dried apple. I had them scope out the place.  I can't subject myself to hearne's specialty prices, but from time to time they have something small that nobody else has, and it's a good excuse to get out of the house if we're there on a holiday. 

It (the air dried apple thing) turned out to be a dead lead, or maybe it was a bait and switch. The same guy who advertised it is the one who built some underfloor vault for the wood he can't sell. I did, in fact, just get a call two weeks ago where the guy is begging anyone who he meets to find someone who will buy his stash. (by his prices, he's really not ready to sell it, which I relayed to her to tell him). 

The in-laws do have some woodworking utility!!

My mother brings me turning blanks sometimes, too. Even though I don't turn.


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Oct 2015)

D_W":343lcugo said:


> Cheshirechappie":343lcugo said:
> 
> 
> > D_W":343lcugo said:
> ...



Ah! Fair enough - the surname 'Weaver' suggested a Lancashire or Yorkshire heritage. There was a huge cloth trade in the 1800s and early to mid 1900s, cotton in Lancashire and wool in Yorkshire, and many of them were not paid much. Poverty was something they knew a lot about, especially during the not infrequent slumps when there was less work about - no work meant no money, with the only safety net being the Workhouse. Many emigrated at such times seeking a better life, with America and Canada being prime destinations (Australia and New Zealand, too). People brought up in those circumstances tended to remember, and if they did manage to save a few pounds, they set it aside for a 'rainy day' - they didn't fritter it away on trivial stuff. Thus, there grew up the long-held tradition that many Northerners are tightwads, a tradition some like to maintain. Allegedly.

If the agricultural wages and conditions of German-speaking Switzerland was anything like that of rural England during the 19th century, many would be in about the same condition as the Northern millworkers, a lot of whom were displaced from the land and came to the mill towns out of desperation rather than choice. I can certainly see how there might be parallels in their attitudes to money.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (6 Oct 2015)

bugbear":274kka95 said:


> Of course, in a commercial sense, _all_ money spent on a hobby - be it golf, tennis, cycling, fishing, woodwork, sailing, whatever - is wasted.
> 
> It brings nothing but pleasure.
> 
> BugBear




Reminds me of George Best when he said "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."


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## D_W (6 Oct 2015)

Cheshirechappie":2ukcejuv said:


> Ah! Fair enough - the surname 'Weaver' suggested a Lancashire or Yorkshire heritage. There was a huge cloth trade in the 1800s and early to mid 1900s, cotton in Lancashire and wool in Yorkshire, and many of them were not paid much. Poverty was something they knew a lot about, especially during the not infrequent slumps when there was less work about - no work meant no money, with the only safety net being the Workhouse. Many emigrated at such times seeking a better life, with America and Canada being prime destinations (Australia and New Zealand, too). People brought up in those circumstances tended to remember, and if they did manage to save a few pounds, they set it aside for a 'rainy day' - they didn't fritter it away on trivial stuff. Thus, there grew up the long-held tradition that many Northerners are tightwads, a tradition some like to maintain. Allegedly.
> 
> If the agricultural wages and conditions of German-speaking Switzerland was anything like that of rural England during the 19th century, many would be in about the same condition as the Northern millworkers, a lot of whom were displaced from the land and came to the mill towns out of desperation rather than choice. I can certainly see how there might be parallels in their attitudes to money.



In writings left behind from my ancestors, it's clear they were chased for not being catholic. But they weren't from the palatinate as a lot around here were (the pennsylvania dutchies, which may be a foreign concept in the UK) - those folks were more poor, with some of the older folks in the community walking into the woods and starving to death intentionally to save resources for younger community members. All of them had an extreme distrust for governments and lived as close to self sufficient (congregating among other like minded folks) as possible, which probably lasted until the second world war, but even after that, many of the type still tried to be self sufficient. Doing absolutely everything yourself on site is a good way to work all the time and be poor. My relatives would not fight in the revolutionary war, either, they didn't trust any governments and were forced to either go to jail or haul supplies in non-war areas, so they hauled supplies. 

Strange thing, all of our ancestors, they were a lot tougher than us!! Somewhere along the way, one of ancestors became a physician in the mid 1800s, but his descendants went right back to the farm and a life of pleasure from work rather than pleasure from play. Something the amish believe in. The folks you mention sound like they have something in common, except my relatives could never hold a job where they had a boss, and so they didn't as soon as they were old enough to acquire their own land.


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## Eric The Viking (6 Oct 2015)

Jacob":1rnzi60v said:


> Two.
> One 12 year old Dawes Galaxy tourer - a heavy bike for touring and carrying camping gear etc. Also does for trails to some extent
> One light road bike for day rides, audaxes etc. It's called an "Audax" bike which means light weight tourer, not quite a road racing bike.
> Both get used a lot and neither are ornaments!
> ...



Snap on the Galaxy. Except mine's now about 36 years old. 

I haven't used it much this year, but it was fully rebuilt the Christmas before last. I'll put a pic in the General Chat section tomorrow, if the weather is good enough. Still the same frame & handlebars, seatpost & saddle...


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## mr edd (6 Oct 2015)

Hi 

I do own a couple of 3mm and a 1.5 mm chisels and use then when scribing joints over shoulders, in the joinery workshop I started in we had a tennoning machine but no scribing cutters so we cut all of our scribes by hand. A real pane when you had a 16 pane internal door to knock out in 10 hrs.

I should probably have bought a bunch of in/out cannal gouge chisels................I always get the two mixed up but with a 3mm and 1. something chisel I could cut away a scribe over any molding profile (even in hardwood piece to be clear finished) quite well. 

Probably not good enough for fine furniture work, but another suggestion for the use of a tiny chisel?????

Cheers 

Ed


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## CStanford (7 Oct 2015)

D_W":1n3fikjc said:


> CStanford":1n3fikjc said:
> 
> 
> > aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.
> ...



Setting up a stupendous woodshop and never really working wood. Buying expensive cookware and never really cooking. Setting up a home brew system and never really brewing. Buying expensive cycling equipment and riding 20 miles a week. Or doing any of these things to a level disproportionately less than the investment in whatever "kit" one deems is required.

That's all I'm talking about. If shopping is the real hobby then so be it. If that rankles somebody on an essentially anonymous forum then I would say the problem lies with person who somehow feels insulted or slighted. A chord must have been struck I guess.


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## bugbear (7 Oct 2015)

CStanford":8dqv8kto said:


> Setting up a stupendous woodshop and never really working wood. Buying expensive cookware and never really cooking. Setting up a home brew system and never really brewing. Buying expensive cycling equipment and riding 20 miles a week. Or doing any of these things to a level disproportionately less than the investment in whatever "kit" one deems is required.
> 
> That's all I'm talking about. If shopping is the real hobby then so be it. If that rankles somebody on an essentially anonymous forum then I would say the problem lies with person who somehow feels insulted or slighted. A chord must have been struck I guess.



I'm a moderate keyboard player, no more (although I don't normally have to pay for much beer in a pub with a piano  ).

But I own a Hammond C3, which many people deem one of the all time great musical instruments. It (or the identical B3) was used by many, truly great players (google, if you like).

Do I "deserve" it? No.

Does my standard of playing require all that it can do? No.

Have I ever come close to its limits? No.

Do I get more pleasure out of playing my C3 than anything else I've ever played? Oh yes.

That last one, for me, over rides all the others, and would still be true if I only played it once a year.

BugBear


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## CStanford (7 Oct 2015)

Yes, I'm familiar with the instrument. 

There's just a good bit of difference between A Musical Instrument and the whole array of equipment that goes along with the other things I mentioned.

If you felt the need to own three or four, and only played rarely, then that would obviously be ridiculous to anybody with any common sense at all.


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## Jacob (7 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> ....
> Charles, ask Jacob what his Audax costs new. I'll eat your shorts if it does not cost new a lot more than new set of LN #4, #5 1/2, #7, full roll of LN chisels, #60 1/2 block plane, and a couple of LN saws. ....


About £1200 ISTR. Wouldn't buy your tool list. Eat the shorts!
Titanium frame, carbon forks, very nice ride, gets a lot of use - non of that "little used, original box" as per a lot of the ornamental tools people buy.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 Oct 2015)

Jacob, is that what you paid a few years back, or is that the current list price? I gather that it is 50% higher than your figures currently. :wink: 

LN #4 £231.28
LN #5 £250.55
LN #7 £327.64
LN #60 1/2 £127.20
LN Tenon Saw £134.90
LN Dovetail Saw £96.36

TOTAL: £1167.93 (Axminster prices)

With the extra 50%, you could have a bunch of LV tools as well! :lol: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (7 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Jacob, is that what you paid a few years back, or is that the current list price? I gather that it is 50% higher than your figures currently. :wink:
> 
> LN #4 £231.28
> LN #5 £250.55
> ...


Slightly more now http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s21p2868 but this is not an expensive bike. A lot of aspiring (and perspiring) newbies would pay a lot more and do a fraction of the mileage. Not unlike the fancy tool market - they'd be disappointed to find that all that cash made almost no difference to their performance! In fact there are a lot of expensive bikes around which don't get much use at all.


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## D_W (7 Oct 2015)

CStanford":1l85nvi3 said:


> Setting up a stupendous woodshop and never really working wood. Buying expensive cookware and never really cooking. Setting up a home brew system and never really brewing. Buying expensive cycling equipment and riding 20 miles a week. Or doing any of these things to a level disproportionately less than the investment in whatever "kit" one deems is required.
> 
> That's all I'm talking about. If shopping is the real hobby then so be it. If that rankles somebody on an essentially anonymous forum then I would say the problem lies with person who somehow feels insulted or slighted. A chord must have been struck I guess.



Who was rankled on here? I missed that part. Or is that a straw person?

I was making more of a point that lots of things (like alcohol and expensive food) are at least as big of a waste as buying tools and not using them. Probably bigger. I've seen it even on woodworking boards, cry poor and then boast about dinner and wine. 

Not a harmonious combination.


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## Bluekingfisher (7 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3aouh5dj said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, is that what you paid a few years back, or is that the current list price? I gather that it is 50% higher than your figures currently. :wink:
> ...



You really need to change your record. Jeeeezzzzzuss! What you might find ridiciculous is neither here nor there. if the man wishes to spend his hard earned on what you call ornament tools, then so what? It may be his desire is to own bling tools to,enhance his woodworking experience, and that is the point of it, the enjoyment. He is not buying because he has to, but because he wants to.

If you are happy bumbling around, fiddling and fettling with 100 year old tools and that makes you happy then that is good enough for me. Some, may not wish to spend their time (often more valuable than the price of the tool) raking around boot fairs or taking that hit or miss shot on an Internet auction site or spend the best part of a day to tune a plane ( if they know how to) ready for work.

In comparison I happen to ride 8 miles every day to and from the train station to get to work come rain hail or shine. I have done for the past ten years, done it on an 89 quid bike from Halfords. Replaced both tyres once, replaced 3 inner tubes, three sets of brake blocks and a new saddle. I reckon I have £120 invested all in. With continued maintenance it has done its job 10 fold and more. would I buy a more expensive bike to make the same journey, no because I have no interest in bikes other than to get me to the station and back. Would I buy a 300 quid LN to pipper about and make a few shavings now and then. Yes I would, because I like taking shavings now and then and I like LN tools. Simples.


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## Bluekingfisher (7 Oct 2015)

D_W":7mu5nkc6 said:


> CStanford":7mu5nkc6 said:
> 
> 
> > Setting up a stupendous woodshop and never really working wood. Buying expensive cookware and never really cooking. Setting up a home brew system and never really brewing. Buying expensive cycling equipment and riding 20 miles a week. Or doing any of these things to a level disproportionately less than the investment in whatever "kit" one deems is required.
> ...



Why is it a waste of money.? The point being made is the spending of his own money on items he wants is surely not wasted money.

Perhaps if the guy made his living from woodworking and was only breaking even, or worse then one could consider it a waste of money. However, he is not, the money being spent is for pleasure, so why than is that a waste of his money. Unless of course you consider money is not for spending?


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## iNewbie (7 Oct 2015)

Jacob":rveib75t said:


> Slightly more now http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s21p2868 but this is not an expensive bike. A lot of aspiring (and perspiring) newbies would pay a lot more and do a fraction of the mileage. Not unlike the fancy tool market - they'd be disappointed to find that all that cash made almost no difference to their performance! In fact there are a lot of expensive bikes around which don't get much use at all.




Sure its expensive. Near £1500 is a-lot to a lot of people. You could buy an old bike out of the local paper and fettle it, because you'll not need the performance the little extra's that near £1500 bike has cost you. How much is Hovis these days, Jacob? :wink:


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## D_W (7 Oct 2015)

Bluekingfisher":vi0vzuy3 said:


> Why is it a waste of money.? The point being made is the spending of his own money on items he wants is surely not wasted money.
> 
> Perhaps if the guy made his living from woodworking and was only breaking even, or worse then one could consider it a waste of money. However, he is not, the money being spent is for pleasure, so why than is that a waste of his money. Unless of course you consider money is not for spending?



I suppose if one has nobody who depends on them, that's the case. What used to be the norm (living within means) is now considered to be cheating someone else of your money. 30 years ago when I was a kid, seeing someone outspending their income or spending all of it made them a poser. Now it makes them normal. It strikes me that we all have no control over the things that could make us impoverished at any given time, so holding some back would be a big problem. If we're a bit tight about a dollar or two on something, and then willing to drink and pee ten times as much, it makes little sense. 

Acting unreasonably with finances is by no means a new thing, though, it's just more common now, and it's more socially expected, I guess, to expend or outspend your income to keep up with someone else.

it's the work of the marketer to convince us that thinking about whether or not we really get the utility out of something is foolish. It's the work of the mark to overspend themselves on food and wine and then tell their kids to go to college on their own dime (this is something probably not quite as big of a deal in the UK if the college situation there is still such that most is paid for by the state. A scottish friend mentioned to us a few years ago that at least in scotland, it was free when he went and I think he said they were considering changing that but getting much resistance).

Much of the sentiment with all of this, I believe, has to do with the structures that are around us (e.g, in the UK, your marginal taxes may be higher but more basic needs are funded automatically - so what's left that's discretionary probably seems more discretionary. Same with post-secondary education). 

I suppose that with all of us, there's a bit too much interest in what someone else does with their money, something also not new. The difference between now and several hundred years ago, the indigent includes not just the unfortunate, but also the stupid who put themselves there.


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## bugbear (7 Oct 2015)

Jacob":1esv9k5q said:


> Slightly more now http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s21p2868 but this is not an expensive bike.



£1450 not expensive?!

You must have been charging a pretty penny for those sash windows!

Looks like a Dawes Galaxy would buy a decent table saw too;

http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Dawes-Classic-G ... wodMjAEFw#

Probably best keep quiet in future when someone spends 50 quid (or 1/29th of a bike :roll: ) on a chisel.

BugBear


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## Jacob (7 Oct 2015)

Dawes have upped the spec and the price. Mine was about £500 in 2004. First long trip on it was Lands End to John o Groats same year. Last year we pedalled from home to the S of France. This year we set off from home for Venice but had mishap in Cologne - hope to complete it next year. Couldn't do these things on a Halfords £89 job. Well you could but it wouldn't be much fun and you'd be doing a lot of mending. But you could have a good time on a Halfords cheapo and improve your cycling, nevertheless.
Doesn't really compare/contrast with woodwork tools but we're very mid range - good value tools for the job. There's a whole other lot who spend a lot more than us, some without getting much benefit - so that's similar at least! And most of the best kit is made in the far east, similarly.

PS Well it does compare perhaps - if a beginner cyclist asked should he buy a £2000 road bike you'd have to answer no of course not. In fact I recently bought an ideal beginners bike for my daughter - a Dawes Discovery 501, £58 on ebay. 
But then TBH Derek's tools as listed aren't actually _that_ good compared to various old Stanley/Record offerings so the comparison doesn't quite work


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## JonnyW (8 Oct 2015)

Wow. And all this due to a "a 3mm chisel" question. 

If I've been the architect of the tone of this thread, then I apologise to the moderators and forum members unreservedly. 

I'm at a loss as to how this descended into a discussion on how we should spend our disposable income. I made it clear that I'm no millionaire - tool collecting is my main hobby and interest and has been since I was given two Disston saws and a number 2 Stanley from my granddad when I was 13 years old (I'm 42). 

Are we not allowed to discuss our obsessional tool collecting here? Are we not allowed to disclose the quantity of tools we own, for fear of being made to feel like a brag or a complete dick head?. Is this not a forum of like minded tool collectors and tool users, where we can discuss tools, wood and woodworking methods that would have our mates and wives throwing themselves under busses to alleviate their pain and boredom (I know the latter sounds good!). 

Please post about your tool obsession. Show photos of your latest, silly, not really needed purchases or photos of your lavishly kitted out workshops. Because I'm really interested in seeing them and I really enjoy reading about it. 

Let's speak about woodworking and tools. 

Jonny


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (8 Oct 2015)

Jonny, fear not ... this is typical fare from a couple of members here. As soon as someone wants to purchase a tool, they become alarmed that the prospective owner may choose what they consider to be the wrong tool. It is as though they cannot help but take it personally believing that someone is masquerading as a woodworker. 

Of course it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. 

Do not be discouraged. We have learned to take this all in fun. (It is especially fun to see Jacob spluttering and attempting to rationalise his expensive bike ... and we did not even hear about his even more expensive musical equipment).

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (8 Oct 2015)

I have a 3mm Marples chisel that came with a set and I unhesitatingly use it as an ice pick, to unstop the vacuum cleaner hose, and occasionally in the shop as well to remove some little ticklish blip of wood, usually related to cutting dovetails. Truth be told an awl works almost as well for this.

There are lots of uses for a thin piece of steel with a handle. The point is to use it for something if you paid for it. If you have no use for it, get rid of it.

Use your imagination.

I used to play ping-pong with a 7" fry pan and wager a little money on the side. When I was finished it was just the right size for an omelet for one.


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## bugbear (8 Oct 2015)

CStanford":sswxcpi9 said:


> The point is to use it for something if you paid for it. If you have no use for it, get rid of it.



Not at all, old fellow.

If you have no use for it, put it on a shelf in the shed, 'cos it's bound to come in handy.

BugBear


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## CStanford (8 Oct 2015)

Or seek professional help for hoarding disorder... just kidding.


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## Jacob (8 Oct 2015)

JonnyW":rl6hk9gy said:


> .....
> Are we not allowed to discuss our obsessional tool collecting here? ......


Yes of course you are. 
My only objection is that the unwary might get the impression that some of these expensive tools are essential and will radically improve their woodwork. They rarely are and they usually won't, which can be disappointing if you've laid out £100s on stuff you can get 2nd hand for peanuts.


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## Zeddedhed (8 Oct 2015)

I've just added to my collection of stuff I'll never use again - a discounted Axminster Dovetail Jig. Only £50 but an unmitigated piece of sh*t. It's engineered with the precision of a cowpat and is almost impossible to set it up square. There is so much flex in the template that you could use it to rout dovetails onto a football.

Sorry if this is hijacking the hijacked thread.


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## JonnyW (8 Oct 2015)

Ha ha ha ha. Excellent Zeddedhed. Hijack away mate. 

Jonny


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## Jacob (8 Oct 2015)

Zeddedhed":uhrwv31n said:


> I've just added to my collection of stuff I'll never use again - a discounted Axminster Dovetail Jig. Only £50 but an unmitigated piece of sh*t. It's engineered with the precision of a cowpat and is almost impossible to set it up square. There is so much flex in the template that you could use it to rout dovetails onto a football.
> 
> Sorry if this is hijacking the hijacked thread.


Polish it, make new handles with cocobolox, hang it on the wall; job done, join the club.


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## Kalimna (8 Oct 2015)

Rightyo then, in order to bring this thread back to the OP, here is a piccy of my smallest chisel, a shade over 3mm at the business end. Its resting on the nearest thing to hand, to give you an idea of size and profile. (Very handy for clearing nut-slots in guitar necks).







Next is the same chisel next to my largest lump (very useful for paring dowels), and for good measure a mallet made by the same chap.






And the mallet is used to adjust another lump of super-duper-iron in this fella :






Obviously, I only ever use them for collecting dust. They're far too important to risk damage by doing actual woodwork with them....
But they give me pleasure, and that is the most important thing a possession can do, isnt it, however that pleasure is gained.

Cheers,
Adam

P.S. The offer is open to anyone interested in trying them out, and is in the area, to pop in and natter about tools.


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## Zeddedhed (8 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3brirb1j said:


> Zeddedhed":3brirb1j said:
> 
> 
> > I've just added to my collection of stuff I'll never use again - a discounted Axminster Dovetail Jig. Only £50 but an unmitigated piece of sh*t. It's engineered with the precision of a cowpat and is almost impossible to set it up square. There is so much flex in the template that you could use it to rout dovetails onto a football.
> ...



Don't be daft. Once I've glued on my cracked and hollowed Norton India stone alongside a strip of my old granddads leather belt it'll make a top-class hand sharpening station.

Then I'll hang it on the wall.


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## bugbear (9 Oct 2015)

Kalimna":1guuyun4 said:


> Next is the same chisel next to my largest lump (very useful for paring dowels), and for good measure a mallet made by the same chap.



I was going to ask what maker puts hollow ground bevel edges on chisels, but your photo is good enough (when clicked) that I can simply read the name!

_Very_ nice.

BugBear


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

Very odd that large chisel. Looks too heavy for a parer - they are made as thin as possible for one handed operation, with wide bevels etc. But it's got a flimsy handle much too light to hit, bearing in mind the weight of the blade.


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## Bluekingfisher (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":25jai5rl said:


> JonnyW":25jai5rl said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



I wasn't aware Jonny W was a beginner woodworker, certainly not from his opening gambit.

This point was confirmed when he later added he has been collecting since he was 13 years old, now 42. So around 29 years or so as a collector. I would suggest, rather than being a beginner, he would seem to me to be experienced and established. Although you never quite learn everything, do you?

Just another point to highlight your inaccuracy and irrelavence on this particular thread.

However, I tip my hat to you, you have, albeit belatedly acknowledged the point, whatever you do as a hobby should be fun, as you suggest when riding your bike to France (or wherever) so therefore does Jonny with his tool collecting.

I personally couldn't think of anything much worse (well I could) than riding to wherever for days on end, however If I had to, my old 89 quider could handle it no problem :lol: Other than the replacement of service parts I mentioned and a wipe over with a rag and a lick of oil from time to time on the chain, I estimate I have covered 20K miles on it over 10 years. What you reckon J, 8 - 10 return trips to the South of France? absolute bargain.

David


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## JonnyW (9 Oct 2015)

Love that large chisel. Very elegant looking thing. Is it not a paring chisel? the handle with the lip looks made for refined pushing or wiggling off thin slices.

However saying that, my 2" Ashley Iles bevel edged chisel is an absolute monster; obviously it's a parer, but I would have no issues using it for chopping or blattering the thing with a mallet.

I take your point Jacob about using tools within means and as per the frequency of their use. And I agree with you. 

I served my time as a joiner with a set of split proof Marples chisels - which I still have. I also had in my box/van, a roll of 6 Robert Sorby bevel edged chisels - of which I only have 4 now unfortunately. They all got used and abused. The Marples on site, the Sorbies when I was in the workshop at a bench. I didn't need the Sorbies, I could've got by with the Marples - but I wanted them. I really enjoyed using them and in my head I thought they improved my joinery (you'll have to talk to my foreman to confirm if it did or not).

The point is now - years on - I still get the same buzz and feeling of excitement buying a new hand tool that I did when I was a youngster, whether it is a 19th century compass plane, or a £3.50 Stanley 102, . 

My favourite plane is a 1920's Stanley 605. It was restored to death by a previous owner, so I stuck a Lie Niesen blade and chipbreaker in it (with an extended yoke pin and a bit of filing), and that things works like a dream. There is nothing like using a tool that has been pushed through wood for nearly a 100 years!. I just don't see many 100 year old bikes passing me in town - but what ever floats your boat.

My joinery now, consists of home projects and keeping family members happy. But I love and will always love the buying of a new tool.

Jonny


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## bugbear (9 Oct 2015)

JonnyW":3260tjjv said:


> Love that large chisel. Very elegant looking thing. Is it not a paring chisel? the handle with the lip looks made for refined pushing or wiggling off thin slices.
> 
> However saying that, my 2" Ashley Iles bevel edged chisel is an absolute monster; obviously it's a parer, but I would have no issues using it for chopping or blattering the thing with a mallet.
> 
> Jonny



In the old catalogues, long paring chisels are listed in both firmer and bevel edged styles.

BugBear


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

bugbear":3lxdh44b said:


> JonnyW":3lxdh44b said:
> 
> 
> > Love that large chisel. Very elegant looking thing. Is it not a paring chisel? the handle with the lip looks made for refined pushing or wiggling off thin slices.
> ...


Really? I always think of a "paring" chisel as being as close to a long razor blade as you can practically get, so a firmer shape wouldn't suit. But then there is no agreed definition, so anything goes!


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## Racers (9 Oct 2015)

Middle box, firmer, flirmer, firmer, bevel, bevel.

Pete


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## JonnyW (9 Oct 2015)

Nice Pete - nice. I love the London pattern handles. I bought four of them to put on my old Sorby chisels, but haven't gotten around to doing it yet. I maybe should've been true to their original standard rosewood handle style, but I love how the London pattern handles sit in your hand. Also very good if you have a diabolically levelled bench!!

I love your boxes - it's hard to tell, are they wall mounted? I'm in the early stages of designing a large wall mounted tool cabinet (one of many jobs that constantly gets relegated due to a demanding client I married!).

Jonny


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## G S Haydon (9 Oct 2015)

I know Jacob can be a touch heavy on the comments and perhaps he need not get involved. However his approaches and experience are proven and his opinion worth listening too. As D_W mentioned its not really our business to worry about what people are buying any how they are doing it, I like seeing the various solutions that modern makers have come up with.

"the unwary might get the impression that some of these expensive tools are essential and will radically improve their woodwork. They rarely are and they usually won't, which can be disappointing if you've laid out £100s on stuff you can get 2nd hand for peanuts" was a comment Jacob made. While there is little detail about which old tools should be selected for us in the UK it's pretty much true. It's a gift that there is so much high quality tools out there for very little. 

I don't think he would want anybody to stop buying whatever they like I know I don't! I think if Jacob were to come up with his own "Anarchist" style tool list it would be a very helpful guide for practical woodworking.


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## JonnyW (9 Oct 2015)

G S Haydon":k3qr3s0e said:


> I know Jacob can be a touch heavy on the comments and perhaps he need not get involved. However his approaches and experience are proven and his opinion worth listening too. As D_W mentioned its not really our business to worry about what people are buying any how they are doing it, I like seeing the various solutions that modern makers have come up with.
> 
> "the unwary might get the impression that some of these expensive tools are essential and will radically improve their woodwork. They rarely are and they usually won't, which can be disappointing if you've laid out £100s on stuff you can get 2nd hand for peanuts" was a comment Jacob made. While there is little detail about which old tools should be selected for us in the UK it's pretty much true. It's a gift that there is so much high quality tools out there for very little.
> 
> I don't think he would want anybody to stop buying whatever they like I know I don't! I think if Jacob were to come up with his own "Anarchist" style tool list it would be a very helpful guide for practical woodworking.



I can tell you that's a book I'd buy. I would never challenge the man's knowledge and experience, and for the record, Jacob's comments usually have me nodding in agreement. It's all banter and fun, and should stay that way.

I do believe in the 'buy when you need' approach - that principle makes complete sense, however this is not an approach I took, as I've already stated, I'm a stupid addict when it comes to tool buying.

Jonny


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## G S Haydon (9 Oct 2015)

Like I said Jonny, it does not matter a jot what we buy and how we do it. I have some stuff that is far from essential for my work, I was lucky enough to buy it for reasons beyond it being just practical and efficient at its job.

If I'm honest the only stuff I've bought that has been just for what I've required would be my regular tools I use at work. Kinda stuff you'd pick up from form a builders merchant really. My hobby kit has become mostly vintage and I discovered I tend to prefer them. There is something I really enjoy about using them, they feel right and appropriate. The bar was set very high by the people who made them.

I like to see the new stuff too but something just always brings me back to the older stuff.


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## CStanford (9 Oct 2015)

There are plenty of good tool lists in the old woodworking manuals. Try Modern Cabinet Work by Wells & Hooper (modern in this case being the early 1900's). None of the lists you'll find will delight those who thrive on redundancy -- several smoothers, many sets of chisels, lots and lots of saws whose conformation and function are either identical or so close as to be essentially meaningless.

One can reconcile these lists with their own purchasing habits, philosophy, etc. or ignore them altogether. 

To be clear, these lists are found in woodworking manuals and not collector's guides. If you assembled the kit of tools recommended in these books you presumably would have everything you need to build, but not necessarily embellish, furniture -- carving kit and moulding planes are not covered in the basic kit of tools but in the chapters on carving and making mouldings if the book includes this information. A kit for a joiner might vary slightly - especially somebody heavily involved in making windows, doors, and stairs.

There really is no mystery here and any quibbles, minor (or should be). Assembling a kit of tools for making furniture is not a process imbued with a lot of whimsy, no matter how much somebody wishes it were so.

If buying tools scratches some other itch beyond what you need to build the projects you have in mind, then it's a matter of something else, essentially inexplicable taste, "I like chocolate and you like vanilla." You'll find no shortage of people on woodworking forums ready to enable and encourage this sort of thing. There's nothing necessarily wrong with it, people 'collect' lots of things.

Speaking for myself and my own situation, if I decided to collect plumber's tools I fear somebody in my family would expect me to fix a leaking pipe someday. They would be sorely disappointed! Mere ownership of the tools does not a plumber make.


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## Bluekingfisher (9 Oct 2015)

G S Haydon":1ng3kbd2 said:


> Like I said Jonny, it does not matter a jot what we buy and how we do it. I have some stuff that is far from essential for my work, I was lucky enough to buy it for reasons beyond it being just practical and efficient at its job.
> 
> If I'm honest the only stuff I've bought that has been just for what I've required would be my regular tools I use at work. Kinda stuff you'd pick up from form a builders merchant really. My hobby kit has become mostly vintage and I discovered I tend to prefer them. There is something I really enjoy about using them, they feel right and appropriate. The bar was set very high by the people who made them.
> 
> I like to see the new stuff too but something just always brings me back to the older stuff.



No one has questioned Jacobs knowledge on certain matters, why bring that into the equation? The frustration, is his insistence the OP was wasting his money in buying new tools. No one asked him for his view on old tools, ( we know his views only too well) valued/compared against the new tools Jonny is collecting/buying? so why introduce the point? 

I totally understand some may wish to buy old tools and spend time and effort fettling them to a useable condition, although that was not part of the thread. A bit like seeking advice on flea collars for dogs and responding with a comment about cat flaps (hammer) 

How about Bill Gates sitting on an estimated personal fortune of $70 billion. That to me is wasting money. Do something with it! 

David


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## CStanford (9 Oct 2015)

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/

It's the largest private foundation in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_ ... Foundation

The public school system in Memphis received a huge (and ongoing I believe) grant from The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.


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## D_W (9 Oct 2015)

Bluekingfisher":1ovd8k3n said:


> How about Bill Gates sitting on an estimated personal fortune of $70 billion. That to me is wasting money. Do something with it!
> 
> David



The bulk of his money (that's still his) is financing private investment. It's not sitting in a shoe box. 

That and his pledge to give a lot away that Charley cited.


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## Kalimna (9 Oct 2015)

I agree with most of what you say, David, but I think you might have picked the wrong target in Bill Gates. Had you said Steve Jobs, however..... (Before he died, obviously)....
The large chisel I have is from Blue Spruce DT chisel line, but I find it very useful for paring dowels, say. I agree the handle looks a little out of place, but to say it is flimsy is both inaccurate and rather foolish, given that you haven't held it, Jacob.

Adam


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## Bluekingfisher (9 Oct 2015)

CStanford":2i953t4a said:


> http://www.gatesfoundation.org/
> 
> It's the largest private foundation in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_ ... Foundation
> 
> The public school system in Memphis received a huge (and ongoing I believe) grant from The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.



Jeeeesus, Ok, bad example :roll: (and why would I compare Bill gates to a collection of woodworking planes anyway) 

I note however you never queried my analogy with the cat flap?? or can i assume you are in agreement? 

Good to know though you have intimate knowledge of Bill's Finances.

David


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Oct 2015)

Cat Flap. A bisexual person. One who ''swings both ways''. Urban Dictionary

What's that to do with flea collars for dogs?


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## CStanford (9 Oct 2015)

Bluekingfisher":1yr469uq said:


> CStanford":1yr469uq said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.gatesfoundation.org/
> ...



I guess. If his foundation's own website and Wikipedia constitute an 'intimate knowledge.'


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## Racers (9 Oct 2015)

JonnyW":1z0ptf0t said:


> Nice Pete - nice. I love the London pattern handles. I bought four of them to put on my old Sorby chisels, but haven't gotten around to doing it yet. I maybe should've been true to their original standard rosewood handle style, but I love how the London pattern handles sit in your hand. Also very good if you have a diabolically levelled bench!!
> 
> I love your boxes - it's hard to tell, are they wall mounted? I'm in the early stages of designing a large wall mounted tool cabinet (one of many jobs that constantly gets relegated due to a demanding client I married!).
> 
> Jonny




Just boxes, I now leave the dividers unglued so I can change them when I need to fit in just one more...

I do like London pattern handles, but box arvers are nice too.

Pete


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## bugbear (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":3828bz33 said:


> bugbear":3828bz33 said:
> 
> 
> > In the old catalogues, long paring chisels are listed in both firmer and bevel edged styles.
> ...



Yes. (e.g. Marples, 1938, found online)







BugBear


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## Jacob (9 Oct 2015)

Well there yer go then! Long and thin seem to be key words though - so that's agreed.


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## bugbear (9 Oct 2015)

Jacob":2d9jnkkx said:


> Well there yer go then!


HTH.  

BugBear


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## G S Haydon (9 Oct 2015)

Sorry David, I did not mean my response to come over poorly . The OP asked for a recommendation and Jacob gave his, a good value and appropriate option. 

However Jonny has been enjoying going for something different. I just tend to ignore Jacobs points about wasting money. Although he did add the context if you just want to make something a cheap option will do the same job. 

Again sorry if you thought I was being a twonk .


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## Bluekingfisher (9 Oct 2015)

GSH - perhaps I should be offering you the apology, it is however at times difficult to convey the emotion in written form. We are of course all entitled to offer a view or opinion, I can assure you my frustration was not vented toward you.  

However, as Jonny W asked for some pictures of owners tools here are some of my improvident collection.

Warning - jacob look away now, you have been warned. 8) 

I must say, in order to amass my collection I have had to remortgage the house, sell the family car, send SWMBO out to work full time, make the boy take up part time work while at school, not pay the bills, not take my family on holiday, not put food on the table, don't put money away for a rainy day and not work hard at all. So, I suppose my purchases, some of them I actually use  are all wasteful.

hope you like the pics Jonny  I even have a few old fettled Stanley planes and a 1/16th chisel.

























David


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## Bluekingfisher (9 Oct 2015)

CStanford":2kgn81d4 said:


> Bluekingfisher":2kgn81d4 said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":2kgn81d4 said:
> ...



I had visions of you rattling the Google keys to prove a me wrong. Congrats =D>


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## G S Haydon (9 Oct 2015)

Wow David! Quite the collection, well cared for too! No need to worry about apologies at all. It is, as you point out, very difficult to have conversations through text when opinions are contrasting.


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## JonnyW (9 Oct 2015)

Guys I completely agree. My original post came across as quite arrogant and bragish, hence my lame attempt in my second post, to try and convince you all I'm not a complet 'twonk'. 

Wow David. Dear God I wish I hadn't asked for photos! I absolutely love your cabinet layout and I may - sorry I will borrow your ideas. 

I need to see some more old timers in there though - I can recommend some Bedrocks if you want to sully that nirvana/pornographic collection you have there. 

I need to get my act together and start making cases. Such a good way to showcase and have tools to hand. I do believe drawers can be a place tools go to die (see Adam Savage from Myth Busters' workshop). 

Thanks for that. Really good to see. 

Jonny


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## Paddy Roxburgh (9 Oct 2015)

I've never really thought I needed/wanted premium tools, my most extravagant hand tool purchase was some Ashley Iles gouges, all my planes and saws are second hand apart from a QS block plane, and they are all able to do what I need them too. That said i have some severe envy when I see your cabinets there David, WOW.
Paddy


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## JonnyW (9 Oct 2015)

David - just looked on-line at your photobucket photos of your workshop. Words fail me. Quite simply amazing. Your attention to detail is first class. Amazed. That's all I can say. 

I love what you've done with your drill press (Strike that remark - I love what you've done with everything!!). I was going to do the same as I have a Clarke press with a mortise attachment. Works a treat but needs refinement - seeing as i'm an occasional mortiser. 

Thanks again. 

Jonny


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Oct 2015)

David, that is incredible - not just the array of tools, but the layout and their organisation. 

Jacob, you know I tease you in friendship. There Is no malice intended. (Actually, I am truly interested in your music equipment, whatever it is - I'd love to see photos). 

I am just an amateur. I am in the fortunate position of not having to justify too hard a tool purchase (or when I build another one). Woodworking is my therapy. On the other hand, I am as stingy as Scrooge in my day job (unless I can get the taxman to fund the purchase). One must not confuse the two. I am both David and Jacob.

I would not use these paring chisels on a jobsite  







These are Kiyohisa slicks. They were a three year wait several years ago. Double that now. But what an absolute joy to use!

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## JonnyW (10 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> David, that is incredible - not just the array of tools, but the layout and their organisation.
> 
> Jacob, you know I tease you in friendship. There Is no malice intended. (Actually, I am truly interested in your music equipment, whatever it is - I'd love to see photos).
> 
> ...



Derek - you do know that some things are just not meant to be used (sorry Jacob!). Now get that lid shut before you scratch them!!!

Jonny


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Oct 2015)

Sorry Jonny .. three years ago I took the slicks out of the nice hand calligraphed ink box by Mr Kiyohisa (who is renouned for this), put the box away, and have been using them as often as possible since then  

I like nice tools, but they are still just tools.

Can't have too many chisels ...






Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (11 Oct 2015)

These shop shots put Alan Peters' place to shame.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Oct 2015)

CStanford":12tippc7 said:


> These shop shots put Alan Peters' place to shame.



Yeah ... not enough tools on show! :lol: 

Page 46 of Alan Peters' book ...

"My eagerness to install machinery .... I had no desire to live in poverty...". 

He goes on to list 20 major machines.

Then with regard the chisels - he had all shown here, and more. The only ones he did not have were mortice chisels: "I have no use for mortice chisels or heavy firmer chisels where I cannot use the mortiser".

Now I am also aware that Alan Peters was a serious cyclist in his youth. I do not believe, however, that he had a brewery on the side. So it seems that he had more in common with Jacob than yourself. :lol: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> ....
> Jacob, you know I tease you in friendship. There Is no malice intended.


I know I know! I'm used to it anyway


> (Actually, I am truly interested in your music equipment, whatever it is - I'd love to see photos). .......


Just odds and ends. Guitars: couple of classical, a Squier strat, a thin semi acoustic/electric, 4 string tenor (aka "baritone ukelele"), 2 steel acoustic. 3 Banjos: backless, fretless and flashy bluegrass type. Bouzouki. Balalaika. Keyboard. Piano. Several mouth organs. Drawers full of recorders all sizes. Bag pipe chanter. Clarinet. Fiddle. 
All projects - not a collection, the intention is/was/still is, to play them.
Wondering about an ocarina next.

PS oh and a 7 course lute (gathering dust - must get it out again) 

Picked this useful advice up on the net this morning, it could apply similarly to woodwork: 
"3 IMPORTANT THINGS: (A) A minimum of 30 minutes of focused practice everyday is essential. (B) You can find good guitars from $100-$400. (C) Your practice and musicality are more important than your guitar."

PPS and percussion sundries - a pair of claves (a demanding woodwork project!), a washboard, castanets, clappers


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Oct 2015)

Hi Jacob

I am hugely impressed. No idea what an ocarina is, but in Oz an "Ocker" is a guy who in winter wears shorts and long socks with a comb tucked into the top. In summer he is usually found in a blue singlet and rubber thongs with a tinnie in his hand propping up a bar. :lol: 

I really am hugely impressed with your range of instruments. Truly. I always wanted to play the guitar - well or bad. I guess I succeeded in bad. Studied classical guitar for a few years. I can still recall the tortured expression on the face of my teacher when I arrived for my lesson ... oh well ..

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2015)

You could tuck an ocarina into your socks, or down the front of your shorts.

It's never too late to start again Derek. I did classical guitar too many years ago but hardly touched in the intervening 40 years. Am now having another go. In fact it's the zeitgeist - seems to be a lot of older people around, realising that if they don't pull their fingers out it'll be too late to become a famous rock star, so you wouldn't be on your own!


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Oct 2015)

I suppose the ocarina will go well with your Jew's harp and your nose flute.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Oct 2015)

Jacob":1lnr1v38 said:


> You could tuck an ocarina into your socks, or down the front of your shorts.
> ...



The mind boggles ... what do you say when someone asks what you are doing with your hand gyrating down your shorts? 

"Just trying for a high C"? :lol: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Oct 2015)

B flat.


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## Zeddedhed (12 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Jacob":3ov219mm said:
> 
> 
> > You could tuck an ocarina into your socks, or down the front of your shorts.
> ...



Playing the flute?


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## Bluekingfisher (12 Oct 2015)

Jonny, Derek - Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated.

I expect like most hobbiest, the hobby can become an obsession, probably true in my case, I have even found myself sitting in meetings at work dreaming of one particular tool or another, completely distracted and miles away from the topic or the discussion in hand. I'll even admit to struggling to retain composure when asked for a response or input.

Anyhoo, my hobby and time spent in the workshop is my sanctuary and haven from all the day to day rubbish we all have to deal with in our everyday lives. I am quite tidy by nature so having a clean and tidy space makes the free time I spensd woodworking ( and polishing tools lol) that much more enjoyable. And not wasteful in the least.

Jonny - I do, or at least did have a few older tools, Bedrocks included (Only two left) until I dropped one and it broke, taking a chunk out of the wing casting. I had a vision of dropping and breaking these old fragile tools beyond repair so I sold them one by one and bought the ones you see in the pics.

The storge cabs are relatively recent interlopers to my wshop. Until recently the tools found home in the stacked tool chest to the far right in the photos. However, everytime i opened the drawer in a hurry I could hear iron and steel clatter against one another, not a good sound.

I am pleased you like the pics.

David


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## Bluekingfisher (12 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Sorry Jonny .. three years ago I took the slicks out of the nice hand calligraphed ink box by Mr Kiyohisa (who is renouned for this), put the box away, and have been using them as often as possible since then
> 
> I like nice tools, but they are still just tools.
> 
> ...



I note you too are wasteful of your time and money Derek, although, not having too many saws, planes or marking gauges comes a very close second. 

David


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## CStanford (12 Oct 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> CStanford":2gdkfeft said:
> 
> 
> > These shop shots put Alan Peters' place to shame.
> ...



My 'brewery' is a ten gallon capacity brew sculpture that easily cost less than a 1980's era used Unisaw. My recipes, though, are priceless in my humble opinion.


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## griggs (12 Oct 2015)

WOW David, that is certainly an impressive collection that you have there.


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## Bluekingfisher (12 Oct 2015)

Thanks Griggs


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## Peter Sefton (12 Oct 2015)

griggs":1ke1j0t4 said:


> WOW David, that is certainly an impressive collection that you have there.



It really is quite an impressive kit of tools and I love the hanging planes.

Thanks for sharing, Peter


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## Bluekingfisher (12 Oct 2015)

Praise indeed Peter, many thanks.

David


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## n0legs (12 Oct 2015)

I'll add my admiration David =D> 
Very very nice.


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## Woody2Shoes (13 Oct 2015)

Looking at the very fine and enviable tools collections previously posted - and the very nicely made storage cabinets made for them - I'm reminded of a dilemma I've recently struggled with, unsuccessfully: should a storage cabinet include "room for expansion"?

I wonder if the cabinets shown used to contain such room - they don't seem to have a spare cm3 wasted now!

Is leaving room for expansion in one's tool cabinet an incitement/reminder to acquire yet more "indispensable" and "reasonably priced" hardware?

Cheers, W2S

PS I'd add a smiley but can't seem to make them work!


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## Bluekingfisher (13 Oct 2015)

If I were you I would leave a little room for expansion, my cab was designed for the tools I had although i have purchased one or two since. You will undoutedly end up with a few more, so I guess the term , you can never have enough space, when it comes to woodworking is true for most of us.

Good luck with your build    8) :wink: 

David


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## griggs (13 Oct 2015)

Bluekingfisher":3ja2vqbw said:


> ....... You will undoutedly end up with a few more, so I guess the term , you can never have enough space, when it comes to woodworking is true for most of us.
> 
> Good luck with your build    8) :wink:
> 
> David



Certainly does seem that it can be a slippery slope


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