# Building Wegner's "The Chair" .



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 Jan 2014)

This should make a change from discussing sharpening :lol: 

Hang about, I did have to sharpen a few chisels and spokeshaves. What is the best method ..... (hammer) 


Well, I have finally begun building The Chair. There is an introduction to the project which, with the exception of a little lathe work and roughing out on the bandsaw, has a hand tool focus ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... ction.html

I have been busy the part week ... well, a few hours each day (as I am on leave) ..

Building the legs: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... eLegs.html

Templates: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... lates.html

Stretchers: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... chers.html

Tenons: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... enons.html

Morticing: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... tices.html

As always, any advice and discussion is welcomed.

Best wishes from Perth for the New Year

Derek


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## gasman (7 Jan 2014)

Derek that is a real labour of love! Amazing attention to detail and patience in solving all these problems with hand tools. loving this WIP - please keep it coming
Kind regards from Eynsham, Oxfordshire.
Mark


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## Jacob (7 Jan 2014)

Interesting stuff Derek.
I've never made anything so complicated. I'm sure the only way to do a good copy is to have an original to hand.
I'd wonder about construction it as far as possible "in the square" though this wouldn't be literally possible - but to get the components all jointed up and only then start doing the final shaping, taking it apart for the turned bits, putting it back together for the spoke-shaving, rasping etc.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 Jan 2014)

Hi Jacob

Many chairs are fashioned that way - the sectioned morticed and tenoned while square, and then rasped or spokeshaved to a curvy shape. That is how Sam Maloof made his chairs (which is a style similar to this Wegner design).

The problem I had was that I could not see how I could connect the rear and front stretchers to the legs at the correct angle. Not only are these stretchers curved in two directions, but they do not enter the legs on the square (as do the side stretchers). This gave me a headache just thinking about it. However, after consuming enough beer, I decided "stuff it, I'll do them later on". Well, I was told that this was the wrong way - which it probably is, but no one showed me how to do it it correctly - and in the end I worked out a hand tools method that seems to be working (touch wood ... I begin the front and rear stretchers tomorrow).

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (7 Jan 2014)

Did you read any of Maloof's books (or articles about Maloof's technique)? His chairs are even more sculpted and less rectilinear than the (very elegant) chair you're building, so might be a rich source of tips.

BugBear


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## Harbo (7 Jan 2014)

Nice looking chair Derek - I've always fancied making a Sam Maloof Rocker but my excuse is that it's too big and I've nowhere to house one?

Are you going to adopt Sam's method of freehand curve cutting on the bandsaw - always looked a bit dangerous to me?

Philly (of the Planes fame) started making a Maloof type one but I never heard if he finished it?

Good luck.

Rod


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 Jan 2014)

Hi BB

I've watched countless videos of Maloof building chairs. His work begins in the square and is then shaped. In fact, his work is quite square when you look carefully. 












And Wegner for comparison ...






In short, The Chair is built with compound angles while Maloof creates their look.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 Jan 2014)

Harbo":333k83x6 said:


> Are you going to adopt Sam's method of freehand curve cutting on the bandsaw - always looked a bit dangerous to me?



Hi Rod

I am toying with the idea but my bandsaw scares me with its power (Hammer 4400). I am also considering a drawknife - safer but into Jarrah ??!

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Racers (7 Jan 2014)

Hand making something that has been made with machines and jigs is going to be more difficult so hats off to you Derek.
They will be a cracking set when you have finished. 

Can't wait for the coping! thin gouge to do the under cut?

Pete


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## Bigdanny (7 Jan 2014)

Hats off to you Derek. I will be watching your progress on your site I think. I think Phil Did finish the lowback. Not sure if he was doing all six for a set though. http://web.archive.org/web/200607092042 ... aloof7.htm


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## xy mosian (7 Jan 2014)

All power to your elbow Derek. I don't think I could break off mid flow to take images, so well done and many thanks.
xy


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (8 Jan 2014)

I reached some of the coping earlier than I expected. Here is how it went ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... oping.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Racers (8 Jan 2014)

Well that turned out nice, bet there was some bum clenching moments paring close to the edge :shock: 

Pete


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## Corneel (9 Jan 2014)

Looks neat. Better then the original. But when you round over the edges of the styles, won't the undercuts you made show up as gaping fits? I hope I don't make you anxious with this comment...


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Jan 2014)

Hi Kees

The rounding over takes place on the other edges. The shoulders are left untouched.

You had me going for about 0.00002 seconds 

Regards from Perth

Derek (heading back into the workshop on a sweltering day)


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## Eric The Viking (9 Jan 2014)

As usual, it's beautiful work, Derek. I'm making notes.

Out of idle curiosity, how did they do this originally, in manufacturing? I was wondering if they squared off the leg where it should touch the rail, thus avoiding the need to cope the tenon shoulders. It ought to look the same, but would have the disadvantage of trapping the rail vertically if/when the rail expanded, and leaving a gap if/when it shrunk. If a lot of expansion, it would risk splitting bits off the leg, too.

If not that then some sort of machine cope, which would be 'interesting' to set up, I'd guess.

Did you ever find out?

E.


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## Corneel (9 Jan 2014)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Hi Kees
> 
> The rounding over takes place on the other edges. The shoulders are left untouched.
> 
> ...



Ah, that's a relief!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Jan 2014)

Here is the next instalment in building The Chair:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... t1%29.html

As always, comments are welcomed.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Jan 2014)

> Out of idle curiosity, how did they do this originally, in manufacturing? I was wondering if they squared off the leg where it should touch the rail, thus avoiding the need to cope the tenon shoulders. It ought to look the same, but would have the disadvantage of trapping the rail vertically if/when the rail expanded, and leaving a gap if/when it shrunk. If a lot of expansion, it would risk splitting bits off the leg, too.
> 
> If not that then some sort of machine cope, which would be 'interesting' to set up, I'd guess.



Hi Eric

There is a link to a video of The Chair being manufactured by sanding machines and shapers. All the joints were essentially CNCed (or the equivalent). Look at the video.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (13 Jan 2014)

The chair is beginning to resemble The Chair ...

*The Chair – Fitting the Front and Rear Stretchers (Part 2)*

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... t2%29.html

All comments and discussion most welcome.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Racers (13 Jan 2014)

Hi Derek

Looks like a lot of fine adjustment is called for! How many are you making?
I made six chairs for my table but I did 4 then another 2 a year or two later. 

Pete


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## custard (13 Jan 2014)

Fantastic project Derek, a chair, a mid century modern chair, and what's more the exact same chair that's my current screensaver! I've made a few chairs with similar "organic" curves, but never in such a hard timber. More power to your elbow!


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## CStanford (13 Jan 2014)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Hi Jacob
> 
> Many chairs are fashioned that way - the sectioned morticed and tenoned while square, and then rasped or spokeshaved to a curvy shape. That is how Sam Maloof made his chairs (which is a style similar to this Wegner design).
> 
> ...



Do the rear legs cant inward on a Wegner chair? If they do, then the side stretcher tenon to back leg mortise is a compound angle problem. If they don't, then nothing is really a compound angle at least by my screwy definition.

The stretchers hitting at a different angle is essentially the same layout problem you have on curved Shaker (or stick) chair back slats. There are several ways of doing it but I lay them out by drawing two circles at the diameter of the legs on a piece of paper, marking each circle right and left. Put a 0* line on each circle at (9:00 o'clock running through 3:00 o'clock and lay out the mortise entry point in degrees from that line, keeping right and left legs as mirror images. Make a pencil tick on each leg and label it "0* line" and "22* line" (or whatever the angle is in degrees) keeping right leg and left leg distinct. Then, put the leg in a V block cradle and run pencil lines from top to bottom based on the pencil ticks you just made. Use the cradle as a story stick and put your measurements on it - where the stretchers hit, etc. Make a tick at mortise tops and bottoms with an awl, all while the legs are in the cradle. The cradle/story stick plus the sheet of paper with the circles, are usually all you need to layout the leg mortises. Of course, you'll need to xfer the basic measurements to the cradle/story stick since you are reproducing a chair you own.

The mortises are chopped at 90* to the face of the leg, but on whatever degree line relative to the 0* line. It's a single angle.

If the back legs have a little rake that only slightly complicates things. Just let me know if the back legs cant inward at the floor.

You can also make a template of card to lay out the degree lines. 

I'll scan and send as a PDF of a set of templates, a card template, and a photo of a simple cradle and how it's marked up.


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## riclepp (13 Jan 2014)

Hi Derek

Really like what you are doing with the chair, and my hat off to you sir, fantastic work. Looking forward to the rest of the chair wip.


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## Lawrence Hill (13 Jan 2014)

Hi Derek

Just a thought, but wondered if you had considered cutting the scribed/coped shoulders of the rails then setting in loose tenons which gives you a nice clean shot through the end grain without the risks attendant on undercutting?

You could rout or slot the mortises in the square and if turning use a removable spare tenon to get the thing centred for turning or jigged if rounding by hand.

I have generally 'shot' the face of the joint with a float and file in these situations and then set the turned component to match the radius/arc of the file. (I have even done it with a round plane once but had to deal with a bit of break out despite cramping on a backing guide block).

Nice work by the way.
Regards

Lawrence


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 Jan 2014)

> Just a thought, but wondered if you had considered cutting the scribed/coped shoulders of the rails then setting in loose tenons which gives you a nice clean shot through the end grain without the risks attendant on undercutting?



Hi Lawrence

I decided at the start to keep to the original design all the way, and that included using the original joinery as well. 

I am not sure whether there will be any appreciable weakness as a result of the, hopefully minimal, undercutting at the shoulders. I plan to use epoxy, partly because it has some ability to withstand flex and partly as it is gap-filling. 

I had originally thought to use hide glue, however I have been informed that it tends to become brittle more quickly on Jarrah. A cabinet may not be a problem, but all chair legs will flex. Epoxy is repairable. 

Any comments and advise here is welcomed.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 Jan 2014)

> Do the rear legs cant inward on a Wegner chair? If they do, then the side stretcher tenon to back leg mortise is a compound angle problem. If they don't, then nothing is really a compound angle at least by my screwy definition.



Charles, I am not sure where you came up with a "compound angle problem". I wrote _"The front and rear stretchers differ from the side stretchers in that they are compound curves. Still, the process of coping the ends is the same for both, and the only part that is more complicated is getting the mortices lined up"._

My understanding of a compound angle is one that integrates two angles. For example, a compound mitre saw will cut a compound angle that may be 45 degrees on the diagonal and 45 degrees on the horizontal.

The only compound angles here are the front and rear stretchers/rails - they curve both outwards and downwards. 

See this post for examples of the templates I built: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... lates.html

I chose to keep the tenon in line with the stretcher, which likely reflects my lack of experience in building chairs (this is the first). In retrospect I should have angled the tenons and that would have simplified positioning the mortices for the front and rear. I just made it a harder job. Something to learn from ...

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Eric The Viking (14 Jan 2014)

Just a quick digression: Episode 3 of The Bridge II (brilliant Danish crime drama that's presently running on BBC-2) featured a Hans Wegner dining set. The chairs were the "Y" (or "wishbone") design. Just thought I should mention it 

Back on topic, 

Derek, I can't see what alternative you might have had to the order of work: You can't cut mortices first, as turning the round "over" them would wreck the sides of the mortices, surely. Did you trim the square ends to match the strike angles (in the vertical plane), so that the mortice would be made vertically downwards in each case? I suspect you did and I didn't pick that up from your description...

... being a bit thick this morning.

E.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 Jan 2014)

> Derek, I can't see what alternative you might have had to the order of work: You can't cut mortices first, as turning the round "over" them would wreck the sides of the mortices, surely. Did you trim the square ends to match the strike angles (in the vertical plane), so that the mortice would be made vertically downwards in each case? I suspect you did and I didn't pick that up from your description...



Hi Eric

A number advocated cutting the mortices on the square and then turning the legs. I could see the sense in that, but I was concerned that the Jarrah was too brittle to avoid severe break out around the mortice, even with a filler piece, and then there was the uncertainly I had about the angles for the curved front and rear stretchers. Consequently, I chose the long way around. Someone more experienced would certainly have done it differently.

To get the mortice angle I did match them to the tenons. I described this at the beginning of the most recent report. This seemed to work well. As I said to Charles, the tenons probably should have been square to the legs, however the legs being round do not care.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CStanford (14 Jan 2014)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> > Do the rear legs cant inward on a Wegner chair? If they do, then the side stretcher tenon to back leg mortise is a compound angle problem. If they don't, then nothing is really a compound angle at least by my screwy definition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see, the back legs are raked rearward. I don't think you did anything wrong by leaving the tenons straight rather than angling them. That makes for a stronger rail. 

Nice work.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (18 Jan 2014)

The Chair is nearly at a point where I can begin to think of a glue up. Well, that's really getting a little ahead of myself. What I mean to say is that the stretchers are nearly done. Basically, there is one significant (through mortice) and one minor task (rounding the sides) to complete, and then it is ready.

This is where we are ...












All the coped joints have been fine tuned ..











Before the side edges are rounded, a through mortice (I'm not sure what else to call it) needs to be created in each of the stretchers for the Danish Cord seat. The through mortice runs nearly the full length of the stretcher, beginning and ending 30mm ( 1 1/4") from the ends. It will be 3mm (1/8") wide and through the middle of each stretcher.

This is what it will look like ...






Now here is where I could do with your thoughts: how would you create this through mortice with hand tools? Power tool of choice would be a router. That would be an easy process.

My first thought was to saw it out with a coping saw and then clean up the edges with a rasp and file. I practiced on a scrap and decided that this would require too much cleaning up. The saw blade tended to wander with the grain, and the through mortice was too narrow to saw two parallel kerfs.

The other method is to use a mortice chisel. Chisel half-way from each side of the stretcher. 

Keep in mind that the front and rear stretchers are compound curves. The side stretchers are straight.

It should be straight forward: score the sides, and chop out the waste. Well, scoring the sides is not straight forward for the compound curves. To begin, a cutting gauge needs to have the appropriate fence to follow a curve. OK, so I can do that. 

I practiced on scrap ...






In this wood a single blade cutting gauge was not reliable. Even with initial light passes, the blade wandered with the grain enough that the mortice was in danger of wandering off course or widening. A mortice gauge would be better, but I did not feel like making one with the correct fence specifically for this project.

It occurred to me I could use the Veritas inlay cutter for the Veritas router plane. This has a fence that will follow a curve.






This has twin blades to score a parallel line for inlay ...






This is the line created (lower example) ..






Chopping out the waste with a 1/8" mortice chisel was OK ....






.... however, I can see that this will take time to do.

Anyone have another idea?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Harbo (18 Jan 2014)

Stitch drilling but I think I would give up and use a router? 

Nice work.

Rod


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## AndyT (18 Jan 2014)

Coach maker's routers are not uncommon on eBay. There are many variations of design. Some have a straight blade held by a wedge. Others have a cutter which curves out two ways. There are also the Preston types where a double scoring edge is followed by a cutting edge. I will see if I can find some pictures later. 

There was even a variant in the 50s / 60s called a Tec Tool, with two cutting edges on a handle. 

All of these tools are designed to cut a narrow groove parallel to a curved face.

This is an 'ordinary' router, unfenced:






and its cutter







This sort has a fence - I'm not sure if it has a specific name:






You can see that the fence would follow a curve and the cutter can work either way, according to the grain direction:






And here is the 'modern' alternative:






Again, it has a short curved fence and will cut either way:






but it's not a precision tool and I don't think you would like it.

One last thought - the humble Stanley 71 comes with a fence designed to follow a curve, so might be better than the Veritas, unless that does too.






[Edited to include pictures.]


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## Jacob (18 Jan 2014)

The chair was designed for machine production (I presume) so maybe you just have to use a machine where necessary. If a hand tool only job then make a different chair? On this chair the hand toolery is necessary for the prototype but presumably the design would be modified with an eye to machining.


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## Racers (18 Jan 2014)

How about cutting the rail in half removing some from one side and re gluing?

Pete


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## custard (18 Jan 2014)

I'm with Pete, cut, remove waste, and re-glue. Unfortunately that will lose 3 or 4mm from the kerf and from shooting the sawn edges, so ideally it would have been allowed for at cutting list stage. Another issue is that the timber selection on the original almost goes out of its way to advertise that it's a single, unmolested piece. The grain on the right hand side runs obliquely across without any "step" from a re-joined kerf. So if you don't have that amount of wood to lose, or the grain on your piece would be disrupted, then I'm with Jacob...use a power router!


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## xy mosian (18 Jan 2014)

As I type this it is beginning to sound a bit daft. How about a turning saw with an 1/8" kerf?
xy


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## Racers (19 Jan 2014)

+1 

I was thinking the same thing, or a float with the right kerf you could make one easily. 

Pete


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## Paul Chapman (19 Jan 2014)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Power tool of choice would be a router. That would be an easy process.



So why not use a powered router - I would. No point in making life difficult just for the sake of it. After all, the originals are made almost entirely using machinery............. 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (19 Jan 2014)

No power, Paul. We are hand tool users. Must find a hand tool method! 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (19 Jan 2014)

This was todays work:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... 82%29.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## xy mosian (19 Jan 2014)

Nicely done Derek.
xy


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## custard (21 Jan 2014)

Really well chronicled, a treat to read.

And your idea of slotting the head on the hand router is a gem...I'm going to follow suit right now before I forget!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (23 Jan 2014)

Sanding, gluing and a coat of finish as the legs and stretchers come together ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... seOne.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (25 Jan 2014)

Here is the work completed today ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... krest.html

I do have a question for all. Please have a look at the area where the finger joints will be. I am interested in your opinion in regard to the run out here - will it be strong enough (the finger joint will use epoxy)? Photos are near the end.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (27 Jan 2014)

Anyone reading this stuff?

This will give a good idea of what is planned for the arm-backrest joint. There are areas about which I would appreciate your comments. 

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... t1%29.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## lanemaux (27 Jan 2014)

Reading , certainly. Commenting , aside from Wow or far out man , little I could add. I am a man well aware of his limitations and therefore will just sit here and admire thanks.


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## xy mosian (27 Jan 2014)

A braver man than I am Derek, great stuff. As for the fingers I prefer the pointy version, it looks more 'crafted' somehow. But don't I recall an image of, at least, a similar chair with more points?
xy


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Jan 2014)

This follows quickly on from the last post. Decisions to be made. Your ideas are wanted ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... t2%29.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Racers (29 Jan 2014)

Do you have a template for the both sides? if so are you planning to drill from both sides? 

I think its the most tricky part to make, getting all those fingers the right length, right angle and in line will be hell.

I would do it like the early ones butt joint and a loose dowel and live with the guilt!

Pete


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## xy mosian (29 Jan 2014)

Drilling a hole square to the surface by hand? How about a V-block so often advised for people drilling dog holes in bench tops. Perhaps even drilling from both sides. I'll try to find a link.
xy


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## xy mosian (29 Jan 2014)

Here you go, from The English Woodworker.
http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1552
xy


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Jan 2014)

Hi xy

That is_ very_ helpful. My thought at the moment is to saw a vee, and clamp the 3/16" guide from the #59 inside it. That way I can achieve a vertical and not cause any wear that will affect the accuracy.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## xy mosian (29 Jan 2014)

At 3/16" diameter is it safe to assume that you will be using a Jobbers style twist bit? If so you'll need a long one, but you know that already. If you are using an auger, I've not seen one less than 1/4", then watch out for the body of the thing being a smaller diameter than the cutting edges. This is seldom very much but may be sufficient to throw off a long hole if any guide is used. I apologise if I am trying to teach Grandma egg sucking techniques.
xy


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## AndyT (29 Jan 2014)

Thinking about your need to imitate by hand those machined spline joints... a while back there was a discussion about making somewhat similar joints in snooker cues and I posted an old Woodworker article on how to make them. Not exactly the same but in case it stimulates an idea... https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post747322.html#p747322


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## custard (29 Jan 2014)

Derek, are you absolutely determined to replicate that particular joint? The reason I ask is that it has "spindle moulder with a factory jig" written all over it! I'm sure that somewhere in the design/manufacturing process there was a handmade prototype that would have had a more traditional joint, and I don't think you'd be giving anything up if you followed that route, I'm equally sure that if that prototype ever surfaced at an auction the market would endorse that view with a breathtaking price!

An other option would be to fabricate the jig for a local joinery company with similar tooling to run it through their spindle moulder. The skill for a joint like that is 100% in the jig making rather than the actual cut, so again no disgrace going that route.

One final point (excuse the pun) is that the "pointy fingered" version has a serious problem in that the feather edges are very vulnerable and if they crumble or split off then you've no way of avoiding a gappy glue line. It's virtually certain that there will be some short grain close to the point, which would make a breakage pretty inevitable.


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## CStanford (29 Jan 2014)

custard":1s5hvzlg said:


> Derek, are you absolutely determined to replicate that particular joint? The reason I ask is that it has "spindle moulder with a factory jig" written all over it! I'm sure that somewhere in the design/manufacturing process there was a handmade prototype that would have had a more traditional joint, and I don't think you'd be giving anything up if you followed that route, I'm equally sure that if that prototype ever surfaced at an auction the market would endorse that view with a breathtaking price!
> 
> An other option would be to fabricate the jig for a local joinery company with similar tooling to run it through their spindle moulder. The skill for a joint like that is 100% in the jig making rather than the actual cut, so again no disgrace going that route.
> 
> One final point (excuse the pun) is that the "pointy fingered" version has a serious problem in that the feather edges are very vulnerable and if they crumble or split off then you've no way of avoiding a gappy glue line. It's virtually certain that there will be some short grain close to the point, which would make a breakage pretty inevitable.



A thread from another forum that could prove helpful:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread. ... comb-joint

This book would probably prove helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/Danish-Chairs-Nor ... ish+chairs


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## custard (29 Jan 2014)

Derek, I missed a point earlier, what's your plan for cramping during the glue-up? I see you've done a fair bit of shaping already, I'd hold off on anymore shaping until the jointing is complete as it just makes cramping that bit trickier.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Jan 2014)

Hi Custard

Clamping is no problem as the section for the joint is squared.

Give some thought to the complimentary finger that has to receive a rounded end. The difficulty is not just the drilling of the hole (to create the one round), but the rounding of the finger (to fit).

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## custard (1 Feb 2014)

Hello Derek,

I've looked again at the design and talked it over with some far better craftsmen than I, and here's the feedback.

1. Cramping up isn't completely straightforward because it'll need pressure in two directions, vertically via a G clamp (or similar) which is easy enough, but also pressure along the axis of the arm, probably via a sash cramp. There will probably need to be bearing blocks temporarily glued or cramped on to allow the sash cramps to do their job.

2. The general consensus was to do the job with a spindle moulder as per the original, however it was possible, but very tricky, to do it by hand. The preferred hand methods fell into two camps.

3. The first was that with accurate marking out it's not then dissimilar in difficulty to a tricky dovetail, and with careful paring and meticulous checking it should be possible to deliver fair to good glue lines. The problem, as you've no doubt recognised, is that it's a bit like cutting the sockets on a half lap dovetail in that there's no room for adjustment, if it isn't right first time then there's going to be a gap and all you can do is decide if the gap will be on the left of the joint or on the right.

4. The second camp was to laminate the joint, which in turn fell into two separate options. The first was to construct the joint with loose tenons or dominos but make it about 6mm narrower than the final dimension. Then to wrap a 3mm vertical laminate around both the inside and outside of the arm, with the desired joint pre-cut and pre-assembled, but only in the laminated section. The logic being that it's much easier to construct this joint in a 3mm thick piece than in a 50mm thick piece. You could then continue shaping the arm. The down side is you risk a wide and ragged glue line along the angled back, but this could be mitigating by using a tintable adhesive like a cold press veneer glue. The second laminating option was to stack one on top of each other a series of laminates that correspond in thickness to one half of each "finger". This makes it much easier to cut and fit the joint as it becomes "open". So think of it as series of scarf joints stacked one on top of the other. The downside is that you'd lose a kerf's width of timber sawing each laminate, in straight grained material it wouldn't much matter, but with wilder grain there would be a series of "steps" as diagonal grain jumped across the kerf.

Hope that's useful. Good luck!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Feb 2014)

Hi Custard

Your suggestions for clamping up are very helpful. Before any glue is applied, I shall find a way to ensure clamping along the length of the joint as well as across the joint.

Your analogy of sawing a difficult dovetail is spot on. I would go so far to say that this is the most difficult dovetail I have faced to date. Bar none! The problem child is that bloody round end. I have created a jig that hand drills exactly where I want and does so accurately through a 50 mm thickness - this thickness is what makes accuracy (or not!) so evident. 

Now the issue is whether I drill first and saw to the circumference of the hole, or saw first and then drill to the centre of the sawn lines? 

I have begun practicing both ways. The first requires great accuracy, otherwise you are left with a step at the end - hence consideration given to adding the hole later. But the latter also has a problem in that there is guesswork now where to locate the hole. The added complication is that all this is difficult enough on the face side of the joint, but must also be as accurate on the back side as well!

I doubt that there is an early version with a pointed finger joint. As far as I can ascertain, the finger joint was added by the factory to strengthen the connection of arm and backrest after the design moved to #503 (the solid seat) to compliment the original #501 (the woven seat and back). I guess my one fallback is that I can add a woven back if I totally screw up this joint!

I shall do some more practice today. Yesterday I built a jig for drilling and a guide for sawing. My initial failures had me cursing in a few languages, some of which I invented. I was convinced this joint was impossible. I have not yet managed a perfect one, but I am getting a little closer, enough to see that it is possible with perfectly parallel pieces. Are mine parallel enough? There is a long way to go before I do this for real.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## xy mosian (2 Feb 2014)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> .... if I totally screw up this joint! .... Derek



No don't screw the joint Derek it will look terrible after your brilliant earlier work  
Seriously I am confident you will crack this and look forwards to the results and your write up.
If you were to use animal glue would you need the same level of clamping?
xy


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## CStanford (2 Feb 2014)

Template routing perhaps with the workpiece held in a cradle (in your case probably an overarm router) really is the way to go. Build the templates by hand to satisfy the Jonesing for hand tool use:

http://www.patwarner.com/precision_routing.html

There honestly is more overall skill and woodworking smarts on display in coming up with a solution to cut this joint accurately, repetitively, and with minimal waste of wood using machinery and shop-made templates. You can pare and fit your way to this by hand, chalk/pare/chalk/pare, etc. but it would be a lesser accomplishment I think.

Maybe it makes sense to reconsider the project, not as a one-off, but a way to make at least a set of four without ruining a forest's worth of wood in the process or spending so much time on one that the whole exercise essentially becomes absurd.

If the intent is to reproduce something beyond just a likeness of the original, something that pays homage to the great industrial design this chair represents, then some machining is more than just desirable it is essential to capture the ethic, and as a practical matter the crispness, fit, and repeatability that machining offers in this particular situation.


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## xy mosian (2 Feb 2014)

Derek,
Thinking about the previous post I understand that you wish to work by hand. How about a purpose made Plane? It could be used to clean up a sawn joint.
xy


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Feb 2014)

You are most likely right Charles, but I prefer not to go that way.

A bit more practice today to create a rounded finger joint.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... conut.html

Opinion and recommendations gratefully received.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## SteveF (2 Feb 2014)

not sure this will help

if u insert a dowel thru hole...longer than the 50mm depth
could u then clamp a straight edge against it
or connect 2 straight edges with bolts u can tighten either end as a clamp
not sure i would use your "posh" saw against against a metal edge though

Steve


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## CStanford (2 Feb 2014)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> You are most likely right Charles, but I prefer not to go that way.
> 
> A bit more practice today to create a rounded finger joint.
> 
> ...



Make a scratch or just carve the ends of the male side of the joint to match the female side you've bored out with a drill. I would have attempted matching the drill bit to a beading cutter out of a set for a Record 405, for instance, and then maybe just use the 405's beading cutter as a scratch. Something along those lines. You need a dead match for the drill bit you used for the holes.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (3 Feb 2014)

I need to explain why I have been so bloody minded about persevereing with the drilling and sawing strategy.

The arms and backrest are being shaped in a different way to the legs and stretchers/rails. The front and rear rails were shaped to fit the legs because I could not be sure of the angle of the mortice and tenon joints. The M&T joints are also internal joints and any gaps could be filled with the epoxy used to glue them together.

By contrast, the arms and backrest are known angles, however their joinery is on the outside where it is visible. The joinery here must be spot on. The connecting sections were purposefully made square and oversize. They will be joined and then shaped (in contrast to the legs, which were shaped and then joined). 












In spite of being as careful as I could in squaring the square end sections, I realise that there will be some deviation, or that I _should_ assume that there is some deviation for a worst case scenario. Consequently, I must find a way to saw the joinery from _one reference side_. In my mind, working inwards from two sides will create errors, even if they are small. This will lead to gaps. If the joinery is perfectly square from the reference side then it should not matter what the opposite side looks like: the parts will fit, and the outsides are going to be removed anyway.

The ability to drill perfectly square from the reference side is one example. This was demonstrated to work reliably. The irony is that the jig I made will drill a hole with greater accuracy (for the purposes here) than the best drill press could!

The ability to saw to the circumference of the hole is important because the wood is too hard and too thick to file to shape, and anyway I have always sawn dovetails to the line, never deliberately played "safe" and left room to pare away waste. I believe in this instance that, with a guide, I should be able to saw to the optimum spot (melding into the edge of the hole). Not only that but, done from the reference side, it should allow for a square joint all the way through the work piece.

Some terminology at this point: I am not sure what to call the finger joint parts. The joint is sort of like a dovetail, but tail and pin does not apply here. Why do I care? Because the joint I have been practicing will have a counterpart, that is, a "male" finger that fills this "female" section. Both end in a round. And the fingers are also separated by a round. 






I returned to the workshop this afternoon for a little more practice. First I tried carving the finger, that is, marking it out and paring from both sides. It was quickly apparent that this was not going to work and was a LOT of effort. 

I had an idea about the errors that occurred previously. What was in common was a saw cut to the one side of the guide and the guide was positioned at the side of a board. My thought was that the clamp I used was pulling it over slightly at that spot because it could not be centred on the guide. I simply used a different clamp.

With everything else exactly as before, this is what I achieved ...






Other side ...






I was very happy with this. All that was needed was a little cleanup with a 3/16" round chainsaw file. 

There was time to try a male finger. All I had to hand was a small piece of Jarrah waste. This was just enough.

I covered the Jarrah with blue tape and marked it from the female finger (this is how I plan to match the arm and backrest, as if it was a dovetail joint - another reason why the reference side must be able to create the non-reference side). The guide was clamped to the Jarrah and the sides sawn out. This left a pointed end, which was shaped with a file ...






I had deliberately sawn the male finger a fraction oversize. This was rasped to fit (just needed a few strokes) ...











Tools ...






And the Record clamp that helped ..






A few more practice runs are needed before the real thing.

May I have your opinion about working from a single reference side?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## xy mosian (3 Feb 2014)

Derek,
You are getting close, well done on the perseverance.
Go from one reference side. Working from two doubles the setting up, and areas of possible errors. 
Have you considered making the second half of the joint in the same way? After all the same spindle cutter was used originally, and if you can cut one side to a line, then why not the other?
xy


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## riclepp (3 Feb 2014)

Hi Derek

I have been reading you wip form the sidelines. All I can say is that this is a cracking piece of craftmanship. I doff my hat to you sir, a fantastic piece of work.


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## custard (4 Feb 2014)

I take my hat off to you Derek, your perseverance and patience are the hallmarks of a real craftsman!


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## Eric The Viking (5 Feb 2014)

Derek, 

Can you get Colt drills on your continent? 

Disadvantage: they're metric sizes. Advantage: extremely clean cut and, if in a power tool, very clean exit. I have this set, bought when it was on offer from Axminster (who've ceased to stock them, which is sad)


.
Peter Sefton sells Colt here, but I'm not sure if he stocks the same range - there is another one that's quite a bit cheaper, but not quite as cleanly cutting as the ones pictured (I have both).

I am so pleased I bought them. There was a big intake of breath at the time because of the price (even discounted!), but they work incredibly well. It's true I haven't used them in a hand brace, but I don't see why they shouldn't work - they're essentially lip and spur. They would almost certainly work in a wheelbrace of some sort, and the V-block alignment tool would work well. The centre point projects significantly beyond the spur, making starting easy, and they don't wander at all (not that I've detected, anyway). I bought them for dowelling, but they've become my preferred drills - I have to remind myself to use cheaper alternatives, which I should, as replacing them will now be very hard.

I wonder, too, if you might go a step further than the V-block:




The purpose of the cutaway being to enable you to easily see into the hole for alignment, and to clear chips in use.
You might get a cleaner cut with a Japanese saw, too (for which there are excellent saw guides) but I suspect that may be anathema.

However you resolve the issues, it remains a tour de force!

E.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (5 Feb 2014)

Hi Eric

I don't own Colt drills but I did, in fact, look into getting a set because of this project. However they are all metric and the dowel guide is Imperial. They do look good and have a fine reputation.

To all, many thanks for your encouragement. It is needed - the hardest part is yet to come.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## gasman (13 Feb 2014)

Any updates Derek - I was following this avidly but no posts for over a week now. How's it coming on
Cheers
mark


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (13 Feb 2014)

Hi Mark

I've been out of the workshop since my last post - back at work and flat out. Then this past weekend was my son's 21st birthday, so no time again. 

I am, however, ready to saw the fingers, and that is planned for this weekend. .... Ooops ... no. My wife reminded me we are away this weekend, driving south for a weekend away, jazz concert under the stars (Diana Krall), set in a vineyard. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## lanemaux (13 Feb 2014)

Wow amigo, you are gonna have a great time. If the joints have been a bit stressing Ms. Krall will leave your taut nerves in a state of cat-like langour. She puts on a lovely show. Have a blast mi amigo.


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## Racers (13 Feb 2014)

Wow Diana Krall, Enjoy!

Pete


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (17 Feb 2014)

I was tempted to wait another week before posting this part of the build. However it is two weeks since my last post and I had begun receiving email asking whether I had given up! Oh to have the time to be in the shop during the week! But I am back in my day job and it will be another week before I again get a chance to do anything, so here is the update - about 3 hours worth over this weekend past.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... t1%29.html

Since there is time, any feedback is welcomed, particularly with regard methods of transferring finger outlines.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## AndyT (17 Feb 2014)

Your thoughtfulness and attention to detail continue to impress me!

An example to us all.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (24 Feb 2014)

A little more work done ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... t2%29.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## AndyT (24 Feb 2014)

Phew! 

I love the understatement when you quietly say

"It was at this point that my developing understanding of the joint recognised that there needed to be an extra finger here..."

Just in time!


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## gasman (24 Feb 2014)

Well done Derek - what an epic afternoon's work


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## Racers (24 Feb 2014)

I think you have done very well, its an immense undertaking to get that amount of surfaces to get to fit together.

Pete


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## custard (24 Feb 2014)

Good work Derek, really really good work. I take my hat off to your care and diligence.


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