# Criticism required........ please



## DrPhill (27 Sep 2015)

One of next years projects may be the renovation of our 'potting shed'. We had some quotes this year, and cannot bring ourselves to pay the quoted prices (>6k gbp). Admittedly this was skilled people making working in hardwood, but really.... the potting shed already has a brick base and back - it is just the superstructure that is rotted. We also do not absolutely need hardwood - treated softwood will last a long time and be a lot cheaper. (I am not ruling out hardwood though).

So, since I have never done something like this large before I decided to learn SketchUp and do a design, but cannot assess how well I am doing.

Would folk here be willing to provide criticism to guide me along the way? I have roughed out the design as I think it might be (still need to figure out the sloping timber for the roof) .... I just do not know if it is over engineered, under engineered, or completely missing the point. Any well-meant criticism would be welcome, even if it is a recommendation to go back to programming and leave construction to the experts!

If you are interested, then here is the Sketchup project file. (probably best to right click and save).

Thanks in advance for any help.


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## blackrodd (27 Sep 2015)

To save going round in circles, it would probably be a good idea to choose a couple of finished potting shed roof's
you would like to see, for you're existing brick built shell, and then work around that with sketchup.
Here's a link to some which hopefully, will be useful, there's loads on here.
Regards Rodders

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=potti ... %20designs


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## DrPhill (28 Sep 2015)

Thanks Rod - not quite what I was after but a fascinating study in the diversity of approaches. If only I had the skill.....

For simplicity/cheapness/achievability/maximum-light I would go for a plastic roof. I have not yet figured out sloping timber in SU.

So far:


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## Brentingby (28 Sep 2015)

Tried to download the SKP file but I get a message indicating there's no file.


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## DrPhill (28 Sep 2015)

Brentingby":2umsepnw said:


> Tried to download the SKP file but I get a message indicating there's no file.



Hmm, just tried it and got a file....

I am using firefox on linux (mint) and did a right-mouse-click followed by 'save link as'. I just assumed this would work.

I did try to attach the file, but the extension was not allowed......


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## Brentingby (28 Sep 2015)

Strange. I get this:





You could upload it to the 3D Warehouse directly from SketchUp. Then share that link.


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## DrPhill (28 Sep 2015)

(homer) (homer) Just fixed the html for the link. Doh!

If in doubt go to vanleersum.co.uk and click on the pottingShed link

Edit: tried the warehouse thing but could not get sketchup to talk to it (I am running the windows version inside PlayOnLinux on Linux Mint). I probably need to sort the comms out for PlayOnLinux.


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## Brentingby (28 Sep 2015)

DrPhill":1f0intry said:


> (homer) (homer) Just fixed the html for the link. Doh!
> 
> If in doubt go to vanleersum.co.uk and click on the pottingShed link
> 
> Edit: tried the warehouse thing but could not get sketchup to talk to it (I am running the windows version inside PlayOnLinux on Linux Mint). I probably need to sort the comms out for PlayOnLinux.



I'll check the link again.

What version of SketchUp are you running? If it is 2013 or earlier, you won't be able to upload to the warehouse anyway.


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## Brentingby (28 Sep 2015)

It is SketchUp 8 you're using so indeed, you can't upload to the warehouse. Upgrade to at least SketchUp 2014 and you should be able to do so.

To add in the the sloping timbers, start with a guideline (Tape Measure tool) drawn between corners on the high and low walls. Then use the Line tool to draw in a rectangle and use Push/Pull. The Rectangle tool can make the rectangle but it can be tricky to get it aligned correctly.


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## DrPhill (28 Sep 2015)

Brentingby":1fma04jb said:


> It is SketchUp 8 you're using so indeed, you can't upload to the warehouse. Upgrade to at least SketchUp 2014 and you should be able to do so.
> 
> To add in the the sloping timbers, start with a guideline (Tape Measure tool) drawn between corners on the high and low walls. Then use the Line tool to draw in a rectangle and use Push/Pull. The Rectangle tool can make the rectangle but it can be tricky to get it aligned correctly.



thanks - I will try that. How do I stop the initial rectangle (I assume a cross-section of the timber) beign perpendicular to the standard axes, and instead make it perpendicular to the drawn line?

I am trying to learn sketchup and 'design' at the same time.


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## Brentingby (28 Sep 2015)

Start by drawing the bottom face of the timber instead of trying to draw the side. Trace along the guideline first, then draw in the direction of the red axis. The line following the cursor will show red. Then hover the cursor on the angled line for a few seconds and move it back over until it turns magenta. That will indicate it is parallel to the sloped line. Draw along with the magenta line until you get to toward the other end of the first line. finally, draw the other short line to close the loop and create the face. then use Push/Pull to pull it up to height.


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## RobinBHM (28 Sep 2015)

Hi Phil,

If you could outline the tools you will be using and whether you are going to buy standard section timber or get the timber machined for the joinery, that would really help with any advise.

Also a plan drawing with the dimensions of the footprint of the brickwork and heights (from underside of door cill up to top of dwarf wall, underside of door cill to top of full height wall and height of top of roof.

Interesting project! we will be demanding WIP images of course!


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## DrPhill (28 Sep 2015)

Brentingby":170rmihq said:


> Start by drawing the bottom face of the timber instead of trying to draw the side. Trace along the guideline first, then draw in the direction of the red axis. The line following the cursor will show red. Then hover the cursor on the angled line for a few seconds and move it back over until it turns magenta. That will indicate it is parallel to the sloped line. Draw along with the magenta line until you get to toward the other end of the first line. finally, draw the other short line to close the loop and create the face. then use Push/Pull to pull it up to height.



Must try that. I cheated and created a 4x2 beam then lifted into position and tilted it. Probably a lot more work and less accurate than your method, but it will do for now.



RobinBHM":170rmihq said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> If you could outline the tools you will be using and whether you are going to buy standard section timber or get the timber machined for the joinery, that would really help with any advise.
> 
> ...



Will do..... (all outside measurements and in mm). It is a bit difficult to measure the north side as this is on a slope and the ground level is a metre up the north wall.
base is 3130x2510
North wall is 2400
Other walls are 900
door is 590 from North, 1045 from south.

I will do a plan from the sketchup as that is pretty much to scale.

Existing height of front window frame is about 1100, but I will increase this so the roof slopes backwards (less guttering, easier to collect rainwater).

I am (sort of) planning on standard treated pine, so multiples of about 23.5mm (ish). I have assumed multiples of 25 for the drawing.

My main tolls will be hammer, chisel, compound mitre saw, hand router (if there is any role for it), rechargeable drill. Pillar drill (again if there is any use for it). Thats about it.

I will post some real pictures later.


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## DrPhill (28 Sep 2015)

General Location:





East Elevation:





South Elevation:





View from inside:





The reason it needs replacing:


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## blackrodd (28 Sep 2015)

An excellent location, Lovely view, and a brick shell with loads of possibilities.
Bear in mind, that's a lot of glazing if the whole roof and front are both glazed It'll get mighty hot in there!
I would also keep away from a design that the front slope took water from the mono pitch above
I'll be very interested in what design you come up with, and don't forget the WIP, as robin mentioned.
Regards Rodders


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## DrPhill (28 Sep 2015)

blackrodd":2ny2uhob said:


> An excellent location, Lovely view, and a brick shell with loads of possibilities.


We like the location in every way - literally five minutes to center of town, three minutes to open countryside leading to Exmoor National Park. The brick base is too good to waste, although it would actually be cheaper to demolish it and replace with a pre-fabricated potting shed.


blackrodd":2ny2uhob said:


> Bear in mind, that's a lot of glazing if the whole roof and front are both glazed It'll get mighty hot in there!


Yes, the current design has a bit less glazing (and a bit more 'ventilation') but does not get unreasonably hot. I am planning on making the triangular side panels into ventilation flaps of some kind. Saves me having to do opening windows.


blackrodd":2ny2uhob said:


> I would also keep away from a design that the front slope took water from the mono pitch above


Not quite sure I understand that. I am sloping the roof backwards to take water to the rear for storage. The current design is poor in that it requires guttering on the front, which has blocked, overflowed, and caused the rot.


blackrodd":2ny2uhob said:


> I'll be very interested in what design you come up with, and don't forget the WIP, as robin mentioned.
> Regards Rodders


Certainly if I undertake the work myself there will be WIP. But that will be next year as I do not have a workshop so will have to wait for reasonably consistent dry weather to work outside.
I am hoping that using reasonably chunky timber - mostly 2x4 I can get the mortice and tenon joins to give the frame some rigidity. But that means plenty of hammer and chisel work on largish timbers. I may sneak some into the back passage to work under cover but it will be awkward.


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## blackrodd (28 Sep 2015)

You're potting shed would make a good workshop, just hand tools, by the location, not sure I wouldn't be
looking out that window too much, perhaps with a spotter scope!

My Grand father was born in Somerset, Woolcotts, near wimbleball, and ended up in Lynton, where my mother came from, Exmoor Must be one of the best places in the country!
Regards Rodders


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## RobinBHM (28 Sep 2015)

My initial thoughts;

For simplicity, I would make separate frames for each element. So a door frame with a window frame either side (allow a tolerance gap either side of door frame, so allowing some adjustment in the brick opening, also I would leave the door frame loose until the door is hanging, then screw the frame once you have an even margin around the door.

Framework: perhaps 75 x 50. The frame could be butt jointed and screwed together. Then pin and glue a bead on to form a glazing rebate. 

To set out framework allow for a corner post at the 2 corners. A post against the brickwork will look good, allow a tolerance gap and trim after.

The frame could be set back from the outside edge of brickwork by say 25mm, to allow for an external cill.

I would suggest a hardwood cill in iroko.

For ease of assembly, screw all of the frames together with no fixings in the brickwork. Make the framework level and plumb, get door swinging nicely, then fix to brickwork.

It looks like an off the shelf 2'3" door would fit, maybe you could make the door frame to suit a 6'6" high door and make the triangles taller.


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## DrPhill (29 Sep 2015)

Thank you Robin for taking the time to consider and comment. I really do appreciate it.



RobinBHM":3pru5wbj said:


> My initial thoughts;
> 
> For simplicity, I would make separate frames for each element. So a door frame with a window frame either side (allow a tolerance gap either side of door frame, so allowing some adjustment in the brick opening, also I would leave the door frame loose until the door is hanging, then screw the frame once you have an even margin around the door.


Separate frames? Yes, I can see that that simplifies construction (more modular). It does mean more wood and less light though. I need to contemplate that - I have time the project will not start until next year.


RobinBHM":3pru5wbj said:


> Framework: perhaps 75 x 50. The frame could be butt jointed and screwed together. Then pin and glue a bead on to form a glazing rebate.


3x2? I am in the ball-park with 4x2 in my plans. Do you think butt jointing would be rigid enough? I was thinking of morticing to increase the rigidity (increases the work too though). I was certainly planning on the glazing beading to save the (impossible for me) task of profiling the timber.


RobinBHM":3pru5wbj said:


> To set out framework allow for a corner post at the 2 corners. A post against the brickwork will look good, allow a tolerance gap and trim after.


I did not think of the corner post being visible down to the brick. A feature, sort of. I will sketch that up to see how it looks.


RobinBHM":3pru5wbj said:


> The frame could be set back from the outside edge of brickwork by say 25mm, to allow for an external cill.
> 
> I would suggest a hardwood cill in iroko.


A cill separate from the frame... that is something I did not think of. I was sketching a 6x2 as a cill-come-frame bottom. Would the join between cill and frame be a weak spot? If not, having two separate pieces would make shaping and assembly easier.


RobinBHM":3pru5wbj said:


> For ease of assembly, screw all of the frames together with no fixings in the brickwork. Make the framework level and plumb, get door swinging nicely, then fix to brickwork.
> It looks like an off the shelf 2'3" door would fit, maybe you could make the door frame to suit a 6'6" high door and make the triangles taller.


The door size. Thank you.... I was overlooking the obvious. I am not sure what to do about a door - but sticking to standard sizes cannot hurt. Lowering the beam to act as a standard height lintel is a dam good idea.


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## RobinBHM (29 Sep 2015)

Yes, 4 x 2 would be stronger. If you are planning on using treated softwood, ie regularised studwork, I would suggest decide where to buy it and use that section size to work out the framework set out, as every supplier seems have a different set dimension -sometimes even different packs from the same supplier. I would avoid CLS, around here it always is undersized. 

Conservatories are made using a plant on cill projection, it is a strong method if done correctly.

I may not have explained myself very well regarding the posts - rather than making the frames so they butt up to the brick walls, you could fit a post to the wall, then start the window frame. That way when you look at the potting shed you will have a post at every corner and therefore some symmetry.

You could look at Q beading, for the glazing bead
http://www.quantumprofilesystems.com/en ... -bead-22mm

You would need a rebate of 18mm for this bead, so your batten section would need to be about that.

A mortice and tenon would be stronger, but the timber batten you would be using to form the glazing rebate will make the frame strong. I suggested butt n screwed based on your tools available.


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## DrPhill (12 Oct 2015)

Thanks for all the input. I have been digesting the ideas and contemplating the project.

I reckon I can do it, but I need to source some quality, pressure treated softwood. A local builder used some for our decking so there must be some around here. When I have sourced that I can do some more design work in sketchup. 

I wont be able to start the physical side of the project until after the frosts next year - I am going to need the existing structure over winter and into spring. Once the plants have been moved out disassembly can commence.

BTW what is "a plant on cill projection"? A link to pictures would be helpful......


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