# Noobs needs help with hand planing!!



## LuptonM (3 Sep 2010)

A short intro before we get right down to business ( a long first post BTW):

I am a 20 yr old student who goes by the name of 'Marc' whom is attempting to make something out of wood (no previous experience nor knows anyone who knows what they're doing- whats with these old ppl and they're oil stones and their can of spam under the stairs?)

Anyway I am having trouble making shavings with a hand plane I got from a carboot (a stanley bailey no 4 - originally had beech handles)

I am a little confused since I've never used a hand plane so I am not sure what to expect. Since I am having trouble I'll go through my sharpening process as well

I've lapped the sole with some wet and dry on some float glass to make sure the sole is flat. I also grinded the blade on a whetstone grinder at 25 degrees on one of these http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... rod781392/ (my dad has one since I suggested he should buy one to clean up his chisels as my mum uses them to open paint tins and they are in a shocking state).

I then used a axminster basic honing guide (BTW the projections are hard to read on it since the writing just looks like a blob due to the poor casting)
to fine tune the grinding on some sandpaper up to p500 sand paper.

I then flattened the back of the blade on p80 intiitally and then all the way up to the 0.3 micron paper that workshop heaven sells (I did use p240,p400,p600, p800,p1500,p2500, 1micron intermediate grits to make sure I did a good job)

After the back was flat I honed the cutting edge at 30 degrees from p800 to 0.3 micron sand paper. On the 0.3 micron sandpaper I tried to remove the wire edge by alternating between honing and flattening the back for 3 strokes a couple of times. 

The blade could shave my arm hair at p2500 grit, but the addition of the 0.3 micron paper made the 'shave' very clean, sorry Gillette looks like I won't need any of your 'not so resonably priced' replacement blades 

After this I lapped the chipbreaker up to p2000 to make sure it had good contact with the blade and attached it to the back of the plane iron, leaving about a 2mm gap from the blade edge, making sure the cap screw was tight and installed it into the plane body

I then sighted down the plane sole and adjusted the lateral lever such that the blade was as close to parrallel to the plane sole as possible.

I then set the depth of the blade to be make a cut as shallow as possible but at the same time to try and make some shavings 

Buts thats were it stops, I tried planing oak (I know that planing in one direction across the board results in a better finish so I tried both) but still I am unable to get full length shavings easily and it seems quite alot of force is needed to make any at all. The 0.3 micron paper made things a bit easier as before (up to p2500) I had to put my whole body weight through the plane to get full blade width shavings and these only exstended 15cm at most (ie. not the whole board length) and were quite thick. 
Since the the 0.3 micron paper a little less force is needed but the results are not much different
See-through shavings don't seem to be achievable as the blade either does very little or seems to take quite thick shavings. When it does do very little the thinner shavings only seem to be at less than half of the blade width.

*Can anyone help???*

Here a picture of the plane. I've replaced the tote with one of my own creations and will replace the knob soon(sorry for the image quality- low light). You prob can't see but the tote is now made of london plane








I was also wandering if anyone had some scrap bits of rosewood/cherry or something to make replacement handles for the no 6 I scored on ebay and for a no 4 my grandad has- I'd be happy to pay for p and p, but the blanks for the tote have to be big enough for the lee valley templates

Annoyingly the seller forgot to mention the broken tote, the bent lateral adjustment lever, the bent blade.

You should have seen my dad use a sledge to flatten the blade, just hilarious , nearly as funny as him flattening his chisel backs on a high rpm cheapo grinder


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## matthewwh (3 Sep 2010)

Hi Marc,

First off, well done - it's great to have such a detailed analysis of the situation as this allows us to eliminate many potential issues before we start. 

My initial hunch would be that the sole still isn't flat. Do you have a straight edge and feeler gauge available? 

Failing that, you can identify a big problem by retracting the cutting iron and placing the sole against a piece of glass or even a window and trying to poke the corner of a piece of paper under it around the edge. If it rocks audibly on the glass then you really are in the chutney so let's hope it's just a low spot around the mouth.

Another possible but less likely cause would be an insecure frog - if this isn't screwed down tight and rock steady there is potential for problems. 

You mentioned that you were getting shavings with the centre of the blade - is the cutting edge cambered? You may have too much camber on it (half a mm difference between the centre and the edges is quite a big camber on a smoother).

Ooooh - welcome to the forum by the way.

All the best,


Matthew


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## bugbear (3 Sep 2010)

(Ditto on Matthew's comments on your detailed post, most helpful)

When you're using the abrasive sheets, how are they fixed down?

It's (actually) easy to get a cambered edge, even on a perfectly flat abrasive, if you're not diligent about keeping your pressure when sharpening centralised. SOme people prefer cambered edges anyway, so I wouldn't worry (at this stage) about full width shavings.

I would concur with Matthews suggestion - concave sole or loose frog are the most likely causes.

To expand, what happens is that the blade DOESN'T touch the workpiece until you wind it out a fair way.

But.

When it *does* finally engage with the workpiece, the cutting action pull the blade down, either by slight flexing of the sole (if you have a concave sole) or by movement of the frog (f you have a slightly loose frog).

So in either case, as soon as you commence a small shaving, you get a thick one.

This could also happen if your cap iron is waaay loose, so that's worth checking too, but it's less likely.

Have you "sighted" the gap between your cap iron and blade to be sure it's good and tight? This doesn't matter at the moment, but will start to matter when you're making thin shavings.

BugBear


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## Jacob (3 Sep 2010)

I think you have been overly seduced by crazy sharpening procedures and may have made things worse rather than better. 
With an unknown car-boot plane I would first have tried it out. It may have been working perfectly well. 
It looks OK after all






If not you then start the process - de-rust the sole if necessary (wire wool and oil) and applied candle wax, then sharpen the blade - just freehand a new edge and clean the face (use that old oil stone from under the stairs!). That is often all you need to do. 10 minutes or so.
Then you start working with it and look closely to see why it does or does not do what you want. It may be you, it may be the plane. Either way it's a learning process and far too soon for the full monty clean up, particularly if you are new to it.

PS whats that about flattening the blade with a sledge hammer! They are all bent, it's the design! No wonder it doesn't work. :roll:


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## Alf (3 Sep 2010)

Welcome to the forum, Marc. Reckon Matthew and BB have covered the likely bases. And I third the thanks for the detail of your post - just how we like them. I'll let the oilstone crack go... this time. :lol:


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## LuptonM (3 Sep 2010)

Thanks for the replies guys. I am talking about getting the no4 to work. The no 6 is the one which had the blade bent significantly (it is important the blade should be flush against the the frog right?)

I'll have another go at getting the sole flat and I'll take some photos to show the process. I don't have a straight edge nor a feeler gauge, but as long as I can keep the bubbles on the sand paper at bay I should be alright (I usually use a spray adhesive to hold the sandpaper onto the glass)

Another culprit could be the axminster honing guide since it has a small wheel and will cause the blade to chamfer a bit. I would do it free hand but I haven't had enough, though I try to apply the pressure with both hands at the blade end. I don't think freehand is an option at the moment as I would require alot of practice.


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## bugbear (3 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":18vengbp said:


> I'll have another go at getting the sole flat and I'll take some photos to show the process.



If you have no means of checking flatness, I would NOT do that. How would you know wether you were doing any good ?!

What the straightest and/or flattest object you have? Your sheet of glass, a #6, the blade from a combo square?

Whatever you trust the most, check the #4 sole against that.

It's most unlikely you've made it concave. You may have made it convex.

I'm sure your blade is fine; if it's sharp enough to shave cleanly, it's easily sharp enough to cut wood. The lever cap will keep it fairly well connected to the frog.

Have you checked the frog tightness, as Mathew suggested?

BugBear


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## LuptonM (3 Sep 2010)

The flatest object is my veritas glass lapping plate. How will I check how flat my sole is against it?

The frog seems tight enough to me


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## GazPal (3 Sep 2010)

"The flattest object is my veritas glass lapping plate. How will I check how flat my sole is against it? 

The frog seems tight enough to me"

Using a marker pen, cover the plane's sole using a criss-cross (Diamond) pattern of diagonal marker pen lines @ a spacing of approx 1/2" - 3/4" between each line.

Place a sheet of 120 grit abrasive paper on top of your lapping plate.

With the blade retracted, plane the paper between 2 - 5 times and check for areas on the sole where ink remains. If the perimeter of the plane's sole is left with no marks this means it's concave and if the centre is clear, but the outline still has lines it's convex. If the sole is clear of ink it's totally flat.

------------

Setting the frog forward so it's leading edge rests flush with it's seat at the plane's mouth should ensure the blade sits flat to the frog's upper face. If you re-set the blade so the cap iron is 1mm (Totally adjustable option) back from the cutting edge this should ensure fine shavings with minimal chatter. Re-assemble, so the cutting edge is just shy of showing beyod the plane sole and adjust for a fine shaving by gradually increasing the blade's set while also making certain the blade squarely aligned with the sole.

If in doubt leave it out and check here before moving ahead with further mods, but the above info should hopefully help you gain some headway.


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## bugbear (3 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":1oj3rea3 said:


> The flatest object is my veritas glass lapping plate. How will I check how flat my sole is against it?
> 
> The frog seems tight enough to me



I note that Lee Valley state that the glass is "flat", although they don't say HOW flat.

Right, it's only 1/4" thick, so it isn't super rigid - we could easily bend our "ruler", which defeats the object.

Hmm.

I suggest minimising the pressure applied when using it.

Support the glass on something flat, but springy; a piece of carpet, router matting, or towelling would serve well. You're trying to support the glass without putting any localised (bending...) forces on it. In aggregate, this emulates a surface plate. This is how model engineers in the 1930's did it.

Cut a strip of the thinnest material you can get hold of (probably cigarette paper, or Kit Kat foil). The strip should be roughly 1x10 cm.

Now, place the thin strip on the glass, and lower the plane onto it. See if you can pull the strip away, or wether the strip is held. If you can remove the strip, the plane has a high(ish) area where you just tested. Repeat this test all around the perimeter of the plane.

Note - you might well be able to get away with less accuracy than this procedure supplies, I'm just telling you the most accurate way I can think of with the supplies you have.

(it would be MUCH easier to test a plane sole with EITHER a surface plate + engineer's blue, or a straight edge + feeler gauge)

BugBear


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## Jacob (3 Sep 2010)

Flattening the sole is just an ultimate refinement for an already efficient plane. If it's not working well to start with then flattening won't make any difference at all. Most planes don't need it anyway, and yours probably doesn't.

I'd concentrate on using it - looking closely at what is happening and how any adjustments make any difference. Try it on softwood - just taking the corners off a piece to see how it cuts. Try it at zero set and turn it up very gradually, and so on. Waste a lot of wood. It's a learning curve; there isn't a magic formula. It's not like a machine where you can set it up and it will work perfectly (machines aren't like that either!)


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## LuptonM (3 Sep 2010)

I've started having ago at flattening it with some p80 stuck onto my glass plate. I didn't really lap it before but only lightly lapped it just to get the worst of the rust and tarnish off .

I am clamping the glass on my workbench to stop it moving 

Here are some progress pictures. I still have alot to do as on bit in the middle seems to be very stubborn
















If I lap the bottom at least I'll know that it isn't the cause of my problem.

PS: don't worry I took the blade out before doing any sanding


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## GazPal (3 Sep 2010)

You're best off leaving the blade, cap iron and lever cap in place - keeping the plane intact and at full weight - during the flattening process. Just set it at a minus zero cut. :wink:


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## bugbear (3 Sep 2010)

Ah - you appear to have excellent access to photographs. That'll help us (help you) a lot.

Please... stop lapping your plane.


I'm starting to suspect it's your planing more than your plane that's the issue here.

Can you take a picture of one of your "thin" (half width) and "thick" shavings for us?

You might also check shape of your blades' edge against your glass (gently!). Just hold the blade vertically, and see how far you have to rock it left/right to make the edges of the blade touch the glass. 

BugBear


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## GazPal (3 Sep 2010)

Also check the blade's edge (Laterally) for square.


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## Alf (3 Sep 2010)

Marc, where are you? Could be there's a reasonably experienced plane user amongst the membership on your doorstep who could sort you out in short order.


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## LuptonM (4 Sep 2010)

Correct to previous posts : Its a no 4 1/2 which I kinda prefer as its more bulky feeling

The cutting edge is straight except for the ends which are slightly rounded (I placed the blade on my glass plate and could see sunlight through the tips). It will not rock on the glass mind you.

Heres a picture of my cutting edge (doesn't look very sharp, nor the honing very neat but its the best I can do at the mo)






I had a little experiment with my plane on some spanish cedar. The hardest bit for me is when the blade first engages the work piece as it feels as the blade gets stuck, but most of the time it gets going it makes that 'wooshing sound'. 

At very low blade depth it seems to act as a scraper






A bit deeper it takes a shaving but not at full blade width






Again deeper slightly wider but thicker





I made a bit off a mess all in all





I think half of it is probably my planing technique but who knows 

Well if anyone can help I live near Ringwood (which is near Bournmouth) and for some of the year I am at Oxford studying (but bare in mind I don't really want to travel far via public transport during study time)


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## GazPal (4 Sep 2010)

Did you check the board for flatness before shifting to planing? Your pictures - judging by the nature of the shavings - give the impression that the timber wasn't truly flat beforehand and this tends to lead to narrower than plane blade width shavings until the flattened area becomes true.

Are you lapping the back of the blade and removing the burr after honing your blades? Leaving the burr intact can lead to variable results in cutting performance.


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2010)

Your problem is the "power devil". You can't plane on a workmate and similar. They are just to bouncy. Has to be a good solid bench.
If you must use a workmate then have the far end tight up against a wall (i.e. plane towards the wall), so that it doesn't move about.
There are various interesting bench alternatives e.g. the japanese beam (thing, wossitcalled) - solidity being the theme.

The shavings look OK so the plane must be working well. You'd hope so after all the fettling you have put in!
Don't worry about full width shavings - the objective is to flatten a board (or straighten an edge). If you can do this it doesn't matter what the shavings look like. I'd worry more about the cut itself e.g. are there tramlines and how do you get free of them? is the edge straight? etc


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## LuptonM (4 Sep 2010)

I guess half the problem the fact I have to clamp the wood as it doesn't allow me to plane one side of the wood, making that half higher than the other half. 

The blade is not leaving any tramlines and I do sand the back of the after honing it on what ever the finest paper I was using 

Should engaging with the wood with the blade intitally be very hard (I am applying most of the pressure to the front knob)?


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## Jacob (4 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":n3lxh9cc said:


> ...
> Should engaging with the wood with the blade intitally be very hard (I am applying most of the pressure to the front knob)?


No. Try setting the blade right back so it doesn't cut at all - then go through the motions. Does the plane catch as the mouth passes the start of the board? 
If yes then you could have the frog screws too tight, which will press the sole down behind the mouth - have a look at the frog and how it is fixed; you will see how it pivots.
But you don't necessarily start a cut at the end of the board - you are trying to flatten it so you should be planing the high points. Have a squint along the board. Is it bowed higher in the middle? If so, set the blade down again and concentrate on taking the top off the high point. Scribble pencil all over the board and you can see what effect you are having as you plane.
And so on - looking and thinking as you go.


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## LuptonM (4 Sep 2010)

I think you may have found one of my problems. When I said I think the frog is tight before, the frog was actually so tight I couldn't move the screws (I didn't tighten it - I came like it) so I'll have another go and see if loosening it helps.

When appyling candle wax to the bottom do you simply rub the candle against the sole? - I would have thought candle wax would add friction


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## AndyT (4 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":5z4s99qd said:


> When appyling candle wax to the bottom do you simply rub the candle against the sole? - I would have thought candle wax would add friction



Yes - just scribble on the sole with it like you were doing with your marker pen. You'll feel the difference!


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## LuptonM (6 Sep 2010)

I think after all the things I've done to my plane I think that lapping the sole has actually helped the most (even though I didn' quite finish it) but I am still not happy with it. I am not really sure what to do, any suggestions?

Is it reasonable to expect to be able to plane thorugh oak end grain or not as my plane can barely touch it?


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## Jacob (6 Sep 2010)

I doubt that lapping has made much difference. It's more the whole process, of fiddling about, adjusting, sharpening and most of all - having a go at using it, which all add up to improved performance.
Of all the things you can do, after sharpening, candle wax on the sole perhaps makes the biggest difference.


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## bugbear (6 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":1zimlc7h said:


> A bit deeper it takes a shaving but not at full blade width



It's extraordinarily difficult to get a thin, full width shaving, so don't worry.

If the blade edge (e.g.) had a 1/8" camber it clearly cannot take a full width shaving thinner than 1/8".

Now, if you're aiming for a half-thou shaving (a noble target for a smoother) your blade edge would have to be straight to an accuracy a good deal better than half a thou...

In practice, most people don't GET full width, thin shavings.

Welcome to the (large) club!

BugBear


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## Paul Chapman (6 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":22xqddhp said:


> Is it reasonable to expect to be able to plane thorugh oak end grain or not as my plane can barely touch it?



Oak end-grain can be very hard so it will test your plane. If it's, say, an inch or more thick, then it's best to do it freehand in the vice, like this







That was three pieces of oak laminated together which I planed with my Clifton #3. You need a *very* sharp blade, set to take very thin shavings. While it won't make any difference to the shavings, I find it best to close the mouth up as much as you can. Take slow, deliberate shavings. If nothing much is happening, try turning the wood round and plane from the opposite direction. In my experience, for this type of thing, the thicker the blade and heavier the plane, the better. I sometimes use my #7 on end grain.

If the wood is less than an inch thick, you are better off using a shooting board. If you haven't one, there's some great stuff on Alf's site. Make one and you'll find it one of the most useful tools you have http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/rocketscience.html

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## LuptonM (6 Sep 2010)

When I tried to plane the end grain my shavings look like yours (more like scrapings). 

What difference does adjusting the distance between the blade and the sole (the mouth?) make?

Well thanks for anyone that replied, I guess all that I have to do now is practice


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## Paul Chapman (6 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":8ix3zh9f said:


> What difference does adjusting the distance between the blade and the sole (the mouth?) make?



When planing end-grain, it usually involves smallish pieces of wood. Having a large mouth on the plane has a tendency for the wood to get caught in the mouth. Closing up the mouth won't make any difference to the shavings - it will just make the planing easier. A little wax on the sole also helps.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Paul Chapman (6 Sep 2010)

Just another thought - it also sometimes helps to skew the plane slightly, particularly when starting the cut, on end-grain. That will give the blade more of a slicing action.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## davebray (6 Sep 2010)

Hi LuptonM,
Forgive me if you already know this but just check to make sure your blade is installed in the plane the right way up. The blade bevel should be facing the frog in a No.4.

I've put the blade in the wrong way up before now and wondered what was wrong 

Cheers
Dave


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## LuptonM (6 Sep 2010)

davebray":abbhj5mn said:


> Hi LuptonM,
> Forgive me if you already know this but just check to make sure your blade is installed in the plane the right way up. The blade bevel should be facing the frog in a No.4.
> 
> I've put the blade in the wrong way up before now and wondered what was wrong
> ...



I've done that before when I first bought the plane but my dad nicely (or not) pointed that out and initially had to grind the primary bevel on an medium oilstone- really not much fun. I've also had the chibreaker somehow slip (maybe the screw wasn't tight enough) onto the blade edge while in the plane and was like "this plane's a load of sh*t". It did somehow make some scrapings but mainly gouged the wood to death.

Yep blading facing down- its not a bevel up plane after all

*
UPDATE*

WRT to planing oak end grain I've tried again with better results as last time my blade had become dull and lost its 'scary sharp'. The blade is now resharpened and I've managed to make a decent shaving (roughly 20cm long from a 20cm long piece of wood- so full length end grain shaving) on the end grain which I am quite proud of, enough to take a photo tomorrow and upload it.

By resharpening again I've only really realised how much a difference sanding the back of the blade makes. If you hone it even up to 0.3 micron paper it feels blunt to touch. However if you sand the back edge of the blade, it reveals an edge that you can feel it catch you finger as you pull away from it.

I've also determined the cause of the 'non-full width' shavings. You've probably sat there, cursing 'that noob just won't listen' and your right the cutting edge is not quite straight enough.
How do I know this? Well I was planing some end grain of an oak board 25mm thick (I'd already flattened the end grain side) just for fun and was playing with the lateral adjustment. Anyway I I found that if I planed using the centre of the blade I could get 25mm wide shavings. However if offset the centre to either side of the plane, very thin shavings would only be made on the part of the blade nearest to the centre.
Basically to sum it up, only the middle part of the blade was deep enought to cut whereas a considerable part of the blade at the sides was not deep enough to cut the wood. Thus concluding the blade edge is not sufficiently straight to cut full width shavings.

That brings me on to another question, how do I get my blade edge straight enough? I am contemplating getting a better honing guide (my current one can't hold chisels square anyway and christmas will soon be upon us), and using it in conjunction with coarse sandpaper to grind/hone the blade straight and square.


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## matthewwh (7 Sep 2010)

Hi,

Could you clarify the difference in technique between honing and sanding the back of the blade please? 

I think we may have found part of the issue here because at most there should only be a degree or two of difference between the two and a honed edge should be infinitely sharper.


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":3op1lima said:


> .....I've also determined the cause of the 'non-full width' shavings. You've probably sat there, cursing 'that noob just won't listen' and your right the cutting edge is not quite straight enough.
> How do I know this? Well I was planing some end grain of an oak board 25mm thick (I'd already flattened the end grain side) just for fun and was playing with the lateral adjustment. Anyway I I found that if I planed using the centre of the blade I could get 25mm wide shavings. However if offset the centre to either side of the plane, very thin shavings would only be made on the part of the blade nearest to the centre.
> Basically to sum it up, only the middle part of the blade was deep enought to cut whereas a considerable part of the blade at the sides was not deep enough to cut the wood. Thus concluding the blade edge is not sufficiently straight to cut full width shavings....


What you describe is exactly how it is supposed to work. Nobody wants or needs full width shavings.


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## bugbear (7 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":1hdwlvmy said:


> That brings me on to another question, how do I get my blade edge straight enough? I am contemplating getting a better honing guide (my current one can't hold chisels square anyway and christmas will soon be upon us), and using it in conjunction with coarse sandpaper to grind/hone the blade straight and square.



Apart from the Kell (which has its own issues) I know of no practical guide that will "lock" a blade such that the edge comes out perfectly straight. Even if the guide is _that rigid_, you now have the problem of getting the blade into the jig at the perfect angle.

Fortunately, it's pretty easy to keep the blade centred by adjusting your hand pressure. IMHO, jigs should only control the bevel angle.

Further, by _not_ doing this "perfectly" you can work a chosen curve (called "camber") into your edge, so that your edge can vary from perfectly straight (used in joint cutting planes e.g. rebate or shoulder planes) to strongly cambered (for scrub planes) and everything in between.

There are several uses for controlled camber.

There are two classic approaches to smoothing plane blades, both aimed at solving the issue of the _edges_ of the strokes in the workpieces - how to you get your smoothing strokes to merge together into a large smoothed surface.

The approach recommended in most pre 1950 texts is to have your blade essentially straight, and to merely round off the corners to avoid an actual, but tiny, vertical slope at the edge of the cut. This approach also requires that your lateral adjustment is pretty near perfect.

The approach which is more used today is to make a _very_ shallow camber on the blade (say 1/64") so that the shaving is NOT full width, and tapers to zero at the edge. These cuts are very easy to match up "edge to edge", since you can overlap them, and even the amount of overlap isn't critical.

BugBear


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## LuptonM (7 Sep 2010)

matthewwh":196ohieq said:


> Hi,
> 
> Could you clarify the difference in technique between honing and sanding the back of the blade please?
> 
> I think we may have found part of the issue here because at most there should only be a degree or two of difference between the two and a honed edge should be infinitely sharper.



What I mean by honing is sanding the secondary bevel at a constant angle whereas sanding the back on the finest sandpaper is to the remove the wire edge



Mr G Rimsdale":196ohieq said:


> LuptonM":196ohieq said:
> 
> 
> > .....I've also determined the cause of the 'non-full width' shavings. You've probably sat there, cursing 'that noob just won't listen' and your right the cutting edge is not quite straight enough.
> ...



I just want to be able to have wider shavings at a low cutting depth



bugbear":196ohieq said:


> The approach which is more used today is to make a _very_ shallow camber on the blade (say 1/64") so that the shaving is NOT full width, and tapers to zero at the edge. These cuts are very easy to match up "edge to edge", since you can overlap them, and even the amount of overlap isn't critical.
> 
> BugBear



Basically thats what I want to do. I just don't want my blade as cambered as it is now

Anyway end grain shaving (maybe not as long as I thought it was)-very fragile mind you


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2010)

You could be missing the point. Shavings aren't interesting - it's the surface of the work which is the important thing. Unless you are in to shavings for their own sake.


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## LuptonM (7 Sep 2010)

Well I can get good shavings like this guy on you tube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKotbPE22lo ) then I know my hand plane is properly tuned and sharpened ready for me to finally start making something (just a hand plane would save alot of time)

Shavings just tell you the condition in which your plane is in and no I don't have a shaving fetish


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## Jacob (7 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":37lp48fl said:


> Well I can get good shavings like this guy on you tube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKotbPE22lo ) then I know my hand plane is properly tuned and sharpened ready for me to finally start making something (just a hand plane would save alot of time)
> 
> Shavings just tell you the condition in which your plane is in and no I don't have a shaving fetish


He earns a living by playing up to shaving fetishists! Best to ignore him and just cast your eye over the surfaces you are planing instead.


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## bugbear (7 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":owzbcxys said:


> Anyway end grain shaving (maybe not as long as I thought it was)-very fragile mind you



I'd say your plane is cutting pretty well. Nice work!

BugBear


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## pedder (7 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":2ofqc34x said:


> Well I can get good shavings like ... then I know my hand plane is properly tuned and sharpened ready for me to finally start making something.




I don't believe that you need a perfect plane to start making something. That are two parallel operations. Perfect tools don't build furniture on their own. 

BTW, your endgrain shavings look really good.

Cheers 
Pedder


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## Paul Chapman (7 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":bf7f8md5 said:


> Well I can get good shavings like this guy on you tube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKotbPE22lo ) then I know my hand plane is properly tuned and sharpened ready for me to finally start making something (just a hand plane would save alot of time)



If you look at that Rob Cosman video clip carefully you will notice two things. First, he is using a very sharp blade. Second, he has flattened the sole of the plane. If you look when he rubs some candle wax on the sole, you will see that the sole still has some hollows but is flat in all the important places - the toe, the heel and in front and behind the mouth.

Keep at it and there's no reason why you can't get shavings as good as Rob's.

As BugBear said, that end-grain shaving looks good.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## matthewwh (7 Sep 2010)

Good stuff - 'honing' normally refers to the process of polishing both of the surfaces that make up the cutting edge, 'grinding' is what you do to move the primary bevel back after you've honed it several times and the secondary bevel is getting too big, and 'sharpening' is the collective for both. Sanding is normally reserved for the use of abrasives on wood. Don't worry, what you are doing is perfectly correct, just a nomenclature thing.

Sounds as though your plane is now doing the biz but we haven't really considered technique yet. 

Starting from a sawn board without any warp, twist cupping etc it usually takes me about three or four sets of passes with a fairly heavy set, maybe three or four thou (0.075 - 0.1mm) before I even start looking at shaving width. I am then only looking for the shavings to give me an analysis of what is going on on the surface. At all stages you need to begin the cut with your weight pressing on the front of the plane and finish the pass with your weight over the back bearing down on the handle.

Retract the blade slightly for a finer setting, perhaps 1-1/2 thou, remembering to advance it into the cutting position to eliminate any backlash in the threads and the yoke which could otherwise cause your blade to move after you have set it. Now you can start looking at the width of your shavings or at least symmetrical changes in width as evidence that all is well.

Once the board looks reasonably flat I'll start taking shavings within the length the board (starting after the beginning and lifting off before the end) until the blade won't cut anymore. The board is now hollow by the depth of cut over the length of the plane. A smoother will still get a shaving after a fore plane has stopped cutting but you will get a deeper hollow; hence the reason for different sized planes - long for flattening, short for smoothing the flattened surface. 

Finally I'll take a couple of passes over the full length of the board to bring us back towards flat but remaining just on the hollow side of it. 

This face of the board now becomes the referance surface (marked with a P), so the sides are shot with it facing down on the shooting board or planed and checked against it for square. the line between the referance surface and the first side to be planed becomes the referance edge, (marked with a V), all other measurements, gauge lines etc are taken relative to these surfaces.

If you can manage that you've cracked it and can foursquare a board by hand to an accuracy of less than 2 thou - and if we ever have the pleasure of meeting in person I'll shout you a pint to celebrate.


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":38utc4h5 said:


> Well I can get good shavings like this guy on you tube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKotbPE22lo ) then I know my hand plane is properly tuned and sharpened ready for me to finally start making something (just a hand plane would save alot of time)
> 
> Shavings just tell you the condition in which your plane is in and no I don't have a shaving fetish


Thinking about R Cosman's video, it occurred to me that I had never planed a bit of birch before (he is using birch), but I've got some birch logs in the firewood pile so I had a go. It's very wet, spalted a bit and short lengths between knots.
It's really easy to plane. Full width shavings a doddle. Not quite as perfect as his, but a worse piece of wood to start with. With an ordinary Record no 4. Even better with a 5 1/2. Full width of the wood that is - just as he is doing (his plane is wider than the wood - another little trick!) but not quite as perfect as the A2 blade (I have to admit).

You certainly don't need an expensive blade to plane birch, or a plane makeover, flat bottom etc.

So if you want to _get good shavings like this guy_ start with a solid bench and vice, a nice clean dry straight piece of birch, and any old plane, well sharpened and with a quick candle scribble on the bottom.

These geezers are selling stuff remember! These flash demo's are all part of the act.

PS I agree with Matthew's stuff above, except I mark an "f" on the face side, with the tail reaching the face edge, where it encounters the point of an upside-down V on the best edge. This way they are linked, the round part of the f is _away_ from the best edge, the v points _towards_ the best face. Then when rebates, mouldings etc are taken off you can still see enough of either or both marks to identify which way round things are.

PPS
Is it the plane or the blade? I tried the reverse operation - an ordinary stanley blade in a QS no 4. It wasn't as good as the QS blade.


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## Alf (9 Sep 2010)

Yes, Rob Cosman has always been careful about what stock he chooses to show his various techniques on, but you do seem to need to apply increasing amounts of salt to his demos these days. :?


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## matthewwh (9 Sep 2010)

Sorry that was oversimplified. Here's 
an article from Jeff Gorman's site showing face and edge marks:

The only thing I could think to add is that the referance face is usually on the inside of the piece as this is most likely to be the surface involved in joinery - also it means that the pretty side never needs to be placed face down on the bench.

Jacob, the QS blades are T10 which is closer to W2 or Japanese white paper steel than than the gauge plate or tungsten vanadium steels that the old blades were often made from. It's more difficult to work with but gets a couple of points harder before it becomes brittle. QS quench them in distilled water (their factory in a hard water area and you need soft water to achieve the best quench). They may be inexpensive but they are not made on the cheap. Glad you were able to appreciate the difference in performance.


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## LuptonM (9 Sep 2010)

oops again


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## LuptonM (9 Sep 2010)

oops.


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## LuptonM (9 Sep 2010)

submit button gone wild


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## LuptonM (9 Sep 2010)

wtf uber post


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## LuptonM (9 Sep 2010)

realise now the main reason I can't get full width shavings is that the bar of the jig on my wetstone grinder is a touch too small (and probably not rigid enough) such that it adds a big enough chamfer in the grinding process to effect the width of the shaving. Not only that it is pretty slow (about an hour to grind a chisel in bad shape)
I guess any chamfer produced in the honing process will be minimal due to the amount of material removed.

To fix this I was thinking of maybe getting the veritas tool rest and jig some when in the future to use with the dry wheel- told my dad about it as he will be way too lazy to use the wetstone but when I told him the price he told me to go away nicely (it is nearly the price of the grinder). Any thoughts on this?



matthewwh":2lsizzx0 said:


> If you can manage that you've cracked it and can foursquare a board by hand to an accuracy of less than 2 thou - and if we ever have the pleasure of meeting in person I'll shout you a pint to celebrate.



sounds like a challenge. Better make a shooting board first then



Alf":2lsizzx0 said:


> Yes, Rob Cosman has always been careful about what stock he chooses to show his various techniques on, but you do seem to need to apply increasing amounts of salt to his demos these days. :?


I like the way he sneaks a sales pitch in each of his videos; anyone can easily afford his £192 dovetail saw - bargain



Mr G Rimsdale":2lsizzx0 said:


> So if you want to _get good shavings like this guy_ start with a solid bench and vice, a nice clean dry straight piece of birch, and any old plane, well sharpened and with a quick candle scribble on the bottom.


I realise I got the whole candle thing wrong. I covered the whole sole in candle wax and it just made things harder. I'll try a scribble next time (just realised since I watched Robs video again). I guess it wouldn't please you that I planed the end grain while clamping it in a drill press vice that sat freely on a red devil bench!! I realise the importance of a good bench but there would be no room to put it if I could afford one (also don't have the skills to make one yet). My dad's shed is pretty small so its more like a tool storage area- I just move whatever I want on to a portable bench if I want to use it. I swear he's endorsed by nu tool and red devil- he hasn't worked out buying cheap isn't always cost effective, though the red devil router is pretty light and nimble
Is it really worth getting a better blade for the stanley in future- what one would u choose (hock ect)?
Kinda like me oldish stanley, seems better made then some others; brass adjuster wheel, 1 piece thingy that sits in the chipbreaker that adjusts the depth of the blade- making the front handle soon (anyone like london plane wood?)


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2010)

matthewwh":2cndxhaa said:


> Sorry that was oversimplified. Here's
> an article from Jeff Gorman's site showing face and edge marks:
> 
> The only thing I could think to add is that the referance face is usually on the inside of the piece as this is most likely to be the surface involved in joinery - also it means that the pretty side never needs to be placed face down on the bench.


That's exactly what I was trying to describe; f and inverted v. Best face/edge pointed in the appropriate direction - out for a box, in for a frame, posh or external side for a door etc.
Interesting about the blades. What I haven't yet tried is a "posh" blade in a normal plane. It's on my list. Those thin jap ones can't remember the name. Can't spend too much time effin abt with planes though!


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## Jacob (9 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":2n4w8u0x said:


> ...
> To fix this I was thinking of maybe getting the veritas tool rest and jig some when in the future to use with the dry wheel- told my dad about it as he will be way too lazy to use the wetstone but when I told him the price he told me to go away nicely (it is nearly the price of the grinder). Any thoughts on this?


Don't waste your money. Spend ten minutes on practicing freehand sharpening - a much better investment.


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## LuptonM (12 Sep 2010)

*Quick Update

*Since I thought that my blade was not straight enough I decided to grind the blade flatter using my honing guide and sand paper. I have also devised a good way to test how flat the end of your blade is:

-Hold the blade edge on some float glass above, looking towards a bright source of light from about 2 feet away (ie. a light bulb). The extent of light you can see through your blade tells you how flat your blade is. 

My blade is not flat but is much improved. I've noticed also that my secondary bevel looks alot neater than before. After honing I went outside to test the ease of planing. You'll note I found some bench 'dogs' to hold the wood on the amazingly sturdy red devil bench 







*Mini Conclusion*
-Remember I said earlier that the blade used to get jammed at the start of planing a board.Well it happens no matter what condition your blade/plane is in; I figured it out.
When my blade was not as straight, in order to get a ok width shaving I had to increase the depth to such a depth planing becomes hard and hence the jam at the start (tis a wee bit harder to plane all the way along as well).
SO why is my blade not straight after grinding. Its simple the jig on my wetstone grinder sucks as it went in straight (I used a bench circular sander and a square(to check for blade squareness) to pre straigthen it since I strongly suspected the grinding jig) and it came out camfered

-Wax helps a little (only if u use it sparingly), noticably but still a little

PS: I've tried to grind free hand (on another blade) and the results are not too great to behonest. Could be ok for chisels but for plane irons, the blade is much wider than the tiny tool rest making it difficult. I can undertand free hand sharpening but free hand grinding yikes

I'll think I stick to honing guides and anything that makes my life easier
I guess Mr Rimsdale would be biased towards anything freehand due to the site in his link easier but for wierd chisels like skews I might try and learn free hand sharpening.
LOL oilstones.......I thought free hand sharpening was supposed to quicken things up - joke 

Anyone notice when u try and type stuff and submit it, the site muddles up all your words? I've had to edit this 100x, sorry for any grammar mistakes


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