# When to sharpen



## mr grimsdale (28 Feb 2010)

Handy tip No 69.
You are beavering away with your plane or chisel and you wonder if the tool is OK and ask yourself is it time to sharpen.
The answer is yes it's time to sharpen.
It's like sailing - when you ask if it's time to reef the sails, the answer is usually yes - or yes but you should have done it earlier (sometimes yes but it's too ******* late :shock: ).
Even if you sharpen too soon this is OK you have a better edge and a bit more sharpening practice behind you. In the long term with experience you will judge it better.
Do beavers sharpen their teeth? See next episode.


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## Jake (28 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":705k0bay said:


> the answer is usually yes - or yes but you should have done it earlier (sometimes yes but it's too ******* late :shock: )



Have you ever thought about trying A2?


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## wizer (28 Feb 2010)

Thanks for this. How do I wipe my pineapple?


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## studders (28 Feb 2010)

wizer":2svvgr4f said:


> How do I wipe my pineapple?



:shock: 

Dare I ask what 'arrangements' you had in place previously?

On second thoughts...


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## Jake (28 Feb 2010)

wizer":15ks60qz said:


> Thanks for this. How do I wipe my pineapple?



Always a bit too late by the sounds of it.

Edit: sorry, I have realised that might sound sarcastic and that as it's Wizer he might actually be seriously asking that question.


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## Peter T (28 Feb 2010)

Handy tip no. 70. 

Ignore any threads originated by Mr. Grimsdale!


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## lurker (28 Feb 2010)

Now ang on!

Its a very valid point for newbies

I'd been trying to use planes for years & never got on with them

Then I started on the uphill task of learning to sharpen properly, then one evening Bean came round with a properly sharpened new toy.
Talk about a revelation!
The bluddy thing went though the wood on its own, I just had to steer it!

Then I reached "shaving hairs on my arm" level.

It is truely a skill (that I guess apprentices hit after about 9 months) to know (feel) you are forcing the plane because the edge is going.

I know this sounds a bit vain but I feel good (& proud) in my (fairly new found)skill using a plane.

It come down to two things knowing how to sharpen & knowing when to sharpen.


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## Karl (28 Feb 2010)

lurker":2f1ylngo said:


> Its a very valid point for newbies
> 
> ........
> 
> It come down to two things knowing how to sharpen & knowing when to sharpen.



Very true.

I used to find myself cursing a plane, or the wood, or something else, when in reality a quick hone of the blade solved any problems I was having and the work went quicker.

It's amazing how quickly blades can need honing in order to keep them working in tip-top condition - A2 or not. (Yes, I have experience of both and no preference for either).

Cheers

Karl


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## wizer (28 Feb 2010)

Lurker and Grimsdale sitting in a tree....


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## lurker (28 Feb 2010)

wizer":194vbliz said:


> Thanks for this. How do I wipe my pineapple?



For a girly like you its front to back isn't it


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## studders (28 Feb 2010)

Of course it's all very well knowing when to sharpen, tis another discipline to actually stop working and do so.


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## lurker (28 Feb 2010)

studders":1yaic2ag said:


> Of course it's all very well knowing when to sharpen, tis another discipline to actually stop working and do so.



It comes down to THREE things............. :wink:


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## mr grimsdale (28 Feb 2010)

wizer":33lc3ze6 said:


> Thanks for this. How do I wipe my pineapple?


Handy tip No. 70
If you find yourself wondering if you should have wiped your buttocks, the answer is probably yes.
Do you find this a problem normally? A mirror on a stick? (so I'm told)


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## SBJ (1 Mar 2010)

wizer":h9y8bzg5 said:


> Thanks for this. How do I wipe my pineapple?



Do you have an inbuilt reaction to behave like an silly person whenever Mr Grim posts? It seems like it to me.

Just to add something positive, freehand sharpening is well worth pursuing as a skill and not as hard as some would have you believe. Also, don't forget a quick swipe with a candle on the sole of a plane.


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## bugbear (1 Mar 2010)

SBJ":3iyrgu9v said:


> Just to add something positive, freehand sharpening is well worth pursuing as a skill and not as hard as some would have you believe. Also, don't forget a quick swipe with a candle on the sole of a plane.



Just to offer another opinion, I get better edges, quicker, and more reliably with a cheap, simple jig.

BugBear


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## Racers (1 Mar 2010)

Hi,

I would also recomend a jig. mostly for A2 because you can then think about something else, while you spend the rest of the day pushing it back and forwards, must get an O1 blabe for my LN 601/2.


Pete


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## Smudger (1 Mar 2010)

I sharpen my plane irons on Tom's tongue

:lol:


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## PeterBassett (1 Mar 2010)

I too use a jig, Veritas No 2. It's just far easier and I actually know what sharp is now.

The only issue I have is that my no 7 blade doesn't seem to sit automatically at right angles in it. It needs a very slight tweak.

A separate tip would be, if you think your waterstones aren't flat, they definitely are not flat.

Pete


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## mr grimsdale (1 Mar 2010)

Racers":lxb84ube said:


> ... you spend the rest of the day pushing it back and forwards, ....


 :lol: 
Jigs are brilliant except they don't half slow things down and make sharpening more difficult.
You could try my freehand jig shown here - scroll down perhaps. Aka the Grimtech Laboratories MKII jig.
I made it to reface a badly pitted blade but it is so effective I've been sharpening (hone & grind) with it ever since.
Yesterday I ground, shaped and honed a new 25/30º (rounded) bevel on totally knackered blade on a Stanley 7 (recent purchase). It took about 10 minutes and it is now sharp as pineapple. If it had been square ended with no bevel at all I reckon 15 minutes would do it. It really does work very well.
Freehand (esp with a little handle jig thing) is very fast because you can put all your effort into it with no jig fiddling and finger cramps.


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## jlawrence (1 Mar 2010)

Sharpening is something that one day will just click - I'm convinced.
I can sharpen stuff so that it'll shave hairs no problem - keeping everything square is quite another matter though.
Veritas MK2 jig is on way (hopefully) so I can see if that'll help make things just a tad more square.


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## studders (1 Mar 2010)

jlawrence":221nebda said:


> I can sharpen stuff so that it'll shave hairs no problem - keeping everything square is quite another matter though.



Ditto, I can do it by hand but it aint pretty, an I like pretty - call me strange if you must.


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## jlawrence (1 Mar 2010)

My problem is that if it ain't square I don't seem to be able to get the plane working correctly - it planes more one side than the other and I seem to be unable to adjust it out.


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## studders (1 Mar 2010)

jlawrence":gxnd68os said:


> My problem is that if it ain't square I don't seem to be able to get the plane working correctly - it planes more one side than the other and I seem to be unable to adjust it out.



Didn't know I'd lent you my Super Stanley Low Angle Skewed Plane? :lol:

I know what you mean though, esp with the above Plane, getting the blade 'out of whack' when sharpening makes mine almost unusable. Hence the jigs.


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## jlawrence (1 Mar 2010)

Not only did you lend me that one, but when I turned my back in the shop it morphed into a couple of other planes as well.
I will get it sussed one day - hopefully whilst there's still some metal left on my blades


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## woodbloke (1 Mar 2010)

jlawrence":38bq772f said:


> My problem is that if it ain't square I don't seem to be able to get the plane working correctly - it planes more one side than the other and I seem to be unable to adjust it out.


One of the advantages of the Kell III guide is that it will guarantee a square blade - Rob


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## bugbear (2 Mar 2010)

woodbloke":34tscsmt said:


> jlawrence":34tscsmt said:
> 
> 
> > My problem is that if it ain't square I don't seem to be able to get the plane working correctly - it planes more one side than the other and I seem to be unable to adjust it out.
> ...



Surely _*any*_ upper-surface-referencing jig will do that, if the blade is square in the jig?

Further, any upper-surface-referencing jig will do the same if the blade is parallel in thickness.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2010)

bugbear":zue7urw9 said:


> woodbloke":zue7urw9 said:
> 
> 
> > jlawrence":zue7urw9 said:
> ...


Possibly, but not (in my view) if the roller is a narrow one, as in the Eclipse...very easy then to obtain a skewed blade unintentionally - Rob


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## Alf (2 Mar 2010)

Any jig can "guarantee" a square blade - if the user gets it right. Don't believe anyone's come up with a jig that _guarantees_ it if the user's a klutz though...


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2010)

Alf":1tgj7l3n said:


> Any jig can "guarantee" a square blade - if the user gets it right. Don't believe anyone's come up with a jig that _guarantees_ it if the user's a klutz though...


Agreed Alf, assuming that jigs have been set up correctly with the blade in the correct location etc. The Eclipse is 'finger pressure critical' though so any slight deviation in right or left finger pressure will over time will produce an unintentionally skewed blade...which is one of the reasons I binned mine - Rob


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## mr grimsdale (2 Mar 2010)

Freehand one corrects for an out-of-square edge by applying more pressure on the high side. Not necessarily to correct it first time but to introduce a bias in subsequent sharpenings. 
That one should have to explain these things at all is amazing* - but then sharpening nowadays is crazy! 
C'mon, pull yourselves together! I blame the jig. :roll: 

*PS Handy hint No 71
walking is made easier if you swing each leg past the other alternately. Do not attempt to swing both legs at the same time.


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## PeterBassett (2 Mar 2010)

And you've flipped from helpful and informative to annoying and arrogant again.


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## bugbear (2 Mar 2010)

woodbloke":1izwd9a0 said:


> bugbear":1izwd9a0 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbloke":1izwd9a0 said:
> ...



Yes, quite right - in my mind the requirment for the jig itself to have a solid line contact with the stone was so clear I forgot to actually say it. 

My bad.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2010)

PeterBassett":139p1kmi said:


> And you've flipped from helpful and informative to annoying and arrogant again.


 :-k...agreed - Rob


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## mr grimsdale (2 Mar 2010)

PeterBassett":2bnj09u5 said:


> And you've flipped from helpful and informative to annoying and arrogant again.


Annoying it may be but it's hardly arrogant to suggest that a routine woodworking task could be made easier, with no great skill level required.


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## PeterBassett (2 Mar 2010)

mr grimsdale":oh1yqo0i said:


> ...That one should have to explain these things at all is amazing* - but then sharpening nowadays is crazy!
> C'mon, pull yourselves together! I blame the jig. :roll:
> 
> *PS Handy hint No 71
> walking is made easier if you swing each leg past the other alternately. Do not attempt to swing both legs at the same time.



Arrogant, condescending, patronizing etc etc etc. I realise the walking comment was a failed attempt at humour, it's the



mr grimsdale":oh1yqo0i said:


> That one should have to explain these things at all is amazing.



line that grates the most.

Are you like this in real life? :shock:


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## Loz_S (2 Mar 2010)

PeterBassett":14slvuxy said:


> Arrogant, condescending, patronizing etc etc etc. ...


Isn't that the reason he was banned in the first place...?

I'm sure one of his many sycophants will be along in a moment to chide anyone who criticizes ...


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## Jake (2 Mar 2010)

Loz_S":xlcdvmgk said:


> PeterBassett":xlcdvmgk said:
> 
> 
> > Arrogant, condescending, patronizing etc etc etc. ...
> ...



No, it had nothing to do with that.



> I'm sure one of his many sycophants will be along in a moment to chide anyone who criticizes ...



As someone who stands up for him sometimes against the herd opinion, I was going to say something rude in return as I guess I fall within that class in your mind. But, as I think he was needlessly needle-ly on that ocassion, I'm going to let it rise and not escalate anything by insulting you in response.


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## PeterBassett (2 Mar 2010)

I'm sure he is a very knowledgeable and experienced person.

It's just his manners that need some work.

Pete


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## mr grimsdale (2 Mar 2010)

Sorry folks but the endless struggle with honing jigs is worthy of comment and people really are too sensitive - it's only bloody woodwork!

PS and anyway - encouraging folk to be less frightened of hand honing (and other hand & eye processes elsewhere) is a good thing IMHO.


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## Racers (2 Mar 2010)

Hi,

I think it is a pre-emptive strike against a soon to be spiralling out of control sharpening thread.

Pete


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## studders (2 Mar 2010)

mr grimsdale":2s947gcb said:


> Sorry folks but
> a) the endless struggle with honing jigs is worthy of comment
> b) people really are too sensitive
> c) it's only bloody woodwork!



Yes to a.
Yes to b.
No to c.

Mr G, once again you overlook the idea that for some it isn't just about the Woodwork. Most of us are hobby, unlike yerself, so time is not really an issue, doing what we enjoy is. 
Some of us enjoy the process of getting 'the perfect edge' (yes I know there's no such thing really...... or is there??? ) 
Call us weird if you like, but why not just accept it and leave us to it?


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## PeterBassett (2 Mar 2010)

And back to being reasonable again. Ah, that's better.

I'll fully agree that once you have learned to sharpen without a jig, it'll be a faster process which as a consequence you'll do more often, thus keeping your tools sharper.

However, it only takes 30 seconds to get the jig set up, and away you go. From that point in you are pretty much guaranteed a perfect result.

For me, as a rank amateur, with not too much time to devote to this hobby the 30 seconds are well spent. They do add up, yes, but at least I know I'll have a usable edge which isn't going to ruin a work piece that has taken me a few hours to prepare.

Once I am confident with the tools and know what they *should* produce, then freehand sharpening becomes something used to speed up work further.

Jigs are just like automatic gearboxes. They help you skip a few levels of difficulty in order to learn a skill. They give you one less thing to worry about. You'll be faster if you do it manually, but you don't have to.

Pete


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## Alf (2 Mar 2010)

woodbloke":2490alwb said:


> The Eclipse is 'finger pressure critical' though


It is. Where the difficulty arises is that some of us see that as an advantage rather than a drawback.


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## Loz_S (2 Mar 2010)

By pure chance I was just thinking of you a moment ago, Jake.


Jake":y09rle0v said:


> "herd opinion"


If I were of a sensitive nature I might consider that to be equally:


> Arrogant, condescending, patronizing etc etc etc. ...


...


Jake":y09rle0v said:


> I'm going to let it rise and not escalate anything by insulting you in response.


How very considerate of you. Unwarranted insults can lower one's standing. A gentleman and a scholar you must be.


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2010)

Alf":1hjbwe5s said:


> woodbloke":1hjbwe5s said:
> 
> 
> > The Eclipse is 'finger pressure critical' though
> ...


Your'e right Alf, it is an advantage in most circumstances, particularly if you're after that nicely curved camber on a blade...not too hard too achieve. But after a while, without due care and attention, I found the camber itself was becoming skewed, which meant the mouth on the plane in use gradually got wider...and wider :x - Rob


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## Jake (2 Mar 2010)

Loz_S":1ifun4uv said:


> A gentleman and a scholar you must be.



Thanks, it's appreciated.


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## SBJ (2 Mar 2010)

Loz_S":3t0tqwdm said:


> PeterBassett":3t0tqwdm said:
> 
> 
> > Arrogant, condescending, patronizing etc etc etc. ...
> ...



Was that aimed at me in reference to this post -



SBJ":3t0tqwdm said:


> wizer":3t0tqwdm said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for this. How do I wipe my pineapple?
> ...



If it was I don't think I'd be as graciuos as Jake has been.


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2010)

Folks...I can sense the Phillyfingers hovering over the 'lock' button, can we please get back on track? - Rob


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## Jake (2 Mar 2010)

Which is actually when to sharpen, not how.

I'll admit to being lazy/bad at this, I always leave it too long. At the risk of tipping back into the jig vortex, I do find that simplicity helps, I manage to actually sharpen in practice more often free hand even if the results aren't as precise. 

Slightly worse if I'm in seeking jig precision from the Veritas mk1, and worse still with the mk2 (in fact, I rarely can be bothered to use it except for the odd skewed thing). 

This is all entirely stupid and counterproductive of course, and I must do better.


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## Loz_S (2 Mar 2010)

SBJ":3mpif2nz said:


> LosS":3mpif2nz said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Bassett":3mpif2nz said:
> ...



Aimed at you? Er, no. I was pretty sure that only one of Jacob's 'friends' would have responded to my original post. (Is this question even for me?)




SBJ":3mpif2nz said:


> If it was I don't think I'd be as graciuos as Jake has been.



Jake? Gracious? Doesn't anyone understand irony anymore.


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## Jake (2 Mar 2010)

Loz_S":2035bxll said:


> Jake? Gracious?



Come now, stop belabouring me with your handbag and let's move on. Rob's comment was very sensible.


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## EdK (2 Mar 2010)

I left it too long recently to sharpen a chisel (LN one) and the edge broke down faster than I thought it would ... which means now I have to grind it then sharpen it... Ho hum - was in a rush to get something done and knew that it needed sharpening but sometimes am inpatient 

Agree with the knowing when to sharpen (but ignoring the signs anyway). Lesson learnt.. perhaps.

As for how, I use a Veritas guide and get on with it well - whatever you choose I don't think it matters just stick to it and it becomes your style. You will get good at whatever you choose and if you feel that it lacks something then choose a different one. I freehand some blades (RI mortice chisels / Veritas scrub etc) with ok results but they are acceptable to me - mostly I stick to the Veritas guide (mk2 I think).

Thanks
Ed


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## lurker (2 Mar 2010)

PeterBassett said:


> Are you like this in real life? :shock:



I'd be deeply dissappointed if he isn't :lol:


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## promhandicam (2 Mar 2010)

woodbloke":qk52g9l6 said:


> . . .But after a while, without due care and attention, I found the camber itself was becoming skewed, which meant the mouth on the plane in use gradually got wider...and wider :x - Rob



So have you given up with the tormek as well as your eclipse? :?

Going back to Jacobs 'tip', at the end of the day however you choose to sharpen you ought to have a method that you feel comfortable with and which takes the minimum of time to get a good sharp edge. If sharpening is too time consuming the tendency will be to put off doing it at which point it will entail a lot more work and effort to get the edge sharp again. I have to say that I still see sharpening as a chore and don't do it as often as I should to maintain a sharp edge. 

Steve


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## mr grimsdale (2 Mar 2010)

lurker":30l01u3y said:


> PeterBassett":30l01u3y said:
> 
> 
> > Are you like this in real life? :shock:
> ...


I'm an absolute foul language alert! :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (2 Mar 2010)

mr grimsdale":29adq2l4 said:


> I'm an absolute ******! :lol:



Six letters :-k Does that begin with 't' and end with 'r' :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## studders (2 Mar 2010)

Tranny ?


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## mr grimsdale (3 Mar 2010)

It had 4 letters when I posted it!

Re arrogance - it's more over-enthusiasm. I get exasperated at the endless jig struggling over simple things like straight edges, when there is a simple and easy freehand way of doing it.
Re sharpening as a chore or a pleasure - it was a chore for me, it is now a pleasure - I keep running out of things to sharpen. Even bigger pleasure is using the tools of course.
It's part of a wider theme i.e. the avoidance of hand & eye skill tasks. This shows in the emphasis on jigs, special cutters, 'better' tools and other forms of dependancy.
This thread was about _when_ not _how_ - but others turn it into _how_ because they have problems. I'm just offering a particular solution - which is a well established method as used for generations but now mysteriously forgotten.


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## mr grimsdale (3 Mar 2010)

PS praps the thing to do would be to have an out-and-out hand sharpening thread for all those that do it, or want to do it. No need to mention jigs at all and could be completely ignored by the massed ranks of jig-fiddlers.


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## bugbear (3 Mar 2010)

mr grimsdale":3g90znul said:


> PS praps the thing to do would be to have an out-and-out hand sharpening thread for all those that do it, or want to do it. No need to mention jigs at all and could be completely ignored by the massed ranks of jig-fiddlers.



As long as (in return) you promise not to obsessively evangelise bodged sharpening by hand when people discuss jig sharpening.

BugBear


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## matt (3 Mar 2010)

LOL - This is like trying to have a useful and serious conversation with bickering going on in the background. "Did", "Didn't", "Did", "Didn't"... Please make it stop :lol: 

I'm feeling inspired to try sharpening without a jig again. I stuck with the Eclipse thinking it was me but feel reassured that it is flawed for some - I too end up with a skew! 

Thanks to whoever got me to this place - I kinda lost who said what and when somewhere along the line.


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## big soft moose (3 Mar 2010)

If you lot have quite finished with the handbags :roll: back on topic is there a way in which you can actually tell when sharpening time is approaching, (beyond the grim squeakers original tip)

like with a chainsaw when you know its getting blunt because the dust to chip ratio changes , is there a similar indicator to watch out for with planes ?

( and yeah yeah i realise that if its not cutting worth a toss its time to sharpen, but i meant before it gets to that stage - do shavings start getting smaller, bigger, shorterm, longer or owt


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## Racers (3 Mar 2010)

Hi,

The plane gets harder to push or you have to set the cut deeper, is what I find usually.

Pete


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## bugbear (3 Mar 2010)

Racers":mk1yah45 said:


> Hi,
> 
> The plane gets harder to push or you have to set the cut deeper, is what I find usually.
> 
> Pete



Yeah - or to put it another way - if there's something wrong, it's most likely a blunt blade.

BugBear


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## matt (3 Mar 2010)

It's needs sharpening when the effort of using the plane outweighs the effort (and inconvenience) of stopping what you're doing, dismantling the plane, setting up all the sharpening gear, sharpening, reassembling, setting, etc...

I also find that temperature plays a part too. My tools stay a lot sharper for longer in the winter :lol:


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## big soft moose (3 Mar 2010)

matt":zalwozn8 said:


> I also find that temperature plays a part too. My tools stay a lot sharper for longer in the winter :lol:



yeah - lol , its amazing how long you can carry on cutting with a chainsaw that is making only dust when the weather is nasty and its miles back to the van


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## mr grimsdale (3 Mar 2010)

matt":2nmrlbr0 said:


> It's needs sharpening when the effort of using the plane outweighs the effort (and inconvenience) of stopping what you're doing, dismantling the plane, setting up all the sharpening gear, sharpening, reassembling, setting, ....


The point of my first post is that esp for a beginner it is often difficult to judge if you have reached that point - so you might as well stop and do it.
_setting up all the sharpening gear_ wot, taking the lid off an oil stone? :lol: 
Actually I've got three on a little tray with a batten like a bench hook, which I put wherever is convenient.
Unfortunately three stones takes three times as long to take off the lids i.e. 1 1/2 seconds instead of 1/2, which is really tedious.


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## Jake (3 Mar 2010)

mr grimsdale":6o6udg0y said:


> Unfortunately three stones takes three times as long to take off the lids i.e. 1 1/2 seconds instead of 1/2, which is really tedious.



Diamond stones don't need lids. Having said that, the price difference makes for a long payback at 1.5 seconds a time.


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## mr grimsdale (3 Mar 2010)

mr grimsdale":2pszh4b9 said:


> PS praps the thing to do would be to have an out-and-out hand sharpening thread for all those that do it, or want to do it. No need to mention jigs at all and could be completely ignored by the massed ranks of jig-fiddlers.


Could call it "Extreme Sharpening" like free climbing - doing it in the nude with no aids in rubbish weather. Make seem daring and scary, not just an old pineapple sharpening f******g chisels in a shed.

PS why is pineapple alright but not *******?


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## oddsocks (3 Mar 2010)

I think I've only recently recognised the best 'when' to sharpen having had to plane plenty of oak. As early posters have said, the shavings become dustier and it's harder to push. I have a spare plane blade so at that point it's a quick task to swap and continue.

As for the how, once both blades need sharpening it takes less than 2 mins to sharpen both of them... At the moment I only have the tormek and the little trend credit card double sided diamond sharpener (having dropped and broken my waterstone). I use the tormek new 'TNT' guide (designed for woodturning) but have a depth line marked on it (from memory 38mm as it's too late to go and check) that when using the 'B' setting of the jig gives me the angle I need for the plane blade. 5 seconds on the tormek, wipe the back on the fine side of the trend card, back to the tormek for 2-3 secs with no pressure and a final wipe on the card and it's ready for use again. I have a leather strop but for the plane have found that I only need to use it if really in a hurry to get an improved edge (and it never feels as good as the above process).

I know that with a completely hand sharpening process it would be even quicker but the tormek and trend card are fast enough for me.....unless I realise I need to fill the water tray then its back to an old cheap diamond plate and hand angles!

Dave


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