# Oak door



## Hpps (23 May 2022)

We are just about to buy a grade 2 listed farm house, but as expected it comes with some things that we've been told need to be changed, one of which is the front door.
The conservation officer as stated that it should be an oak 6 panel Georgian style with glazed to panels. Admittedly it will be an improvement on whats currently there, and I plan to make it myself.

My question is, due to it being an external door, once I've purchased the timber, can I just get started and make it straight away, or would the timber need to sit in my workshop for a while first? What moisture content should I be aiming for on an external door?


----------



## Doug71 (23 May 2022)

I would say if you buy kiln dried Oak from Arnold Laver or somewhere you could just crack on and get it made.

External doors are always a tough one as obviously one side is inside and one side is outside so depending on the conditions the moisture content of the two faces of the door can be different which leads to it bowing.

I think kiln dried Oak would be supplied around 12% MC which is too wet for inside and too dry for outside so about right for an external door.

As idyllic as Oak sounds it's not the ideal timber for a front door, even the firms that make high end bespoke ones generally recommend some kind of canopy to keep the weather off them. 

If it's going to be painted I would be looking at Accoya.


----------



## Hpps (23 May 2022)

Unfortunately, being a listed building we are at the mercy of the planners and conservationist


----------



## thetyreman (23 May 2022)

I'd be looking at buying air dried oak if you can find any, it'll be worth using.


----------



## Jameshow (23 May 2022)

Is oak the best wood it does seem to move alot? 

Nothing UK grown that's more stable??


----------



## pe2dave (23 May 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Is oak the best wood it does seem to move alot?
> 
> Nothing UK grown that's more stable??


It's wood.
Oak? Some has lasted n hundred years?
Yep, it moves. 
Love (sorry live) with it.
(and enjoy it each time you enter the house)


----------



## Ollie78 (23 May 2022)

I am about to make an Oak front door and frame as well. Currently trying to decide on getting kiln dried of good quality like I use for furniture or air dried which does not appear to be the same quality.
As an added complication I also need to make 2 gates (more like doors really ) so was going to get air dried for that but had a look at some and it was a bit ropey and not much cheaper than the good stuff. 

To add to the problem is the finishing, mine will be oiled so I will probably use Owatrol textrol. 
If yours is to be painted maybe you could get away with Accoya which I like for panelled doors. I am sure they won't make you drill a hole in it to prove its oak.

Good luck. 

Ollie


----------



## Suffolkboy (23 May 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Is oak the best wood it does seem to move alot?
> 
> Nothing UK grown that's more stable??


Beech would be more stable.


----------



## Adam W. (23 May 2022)

Suffolkboy said:


> Beech would be more stable.




Beech is not durable.


----------



## DBC (24 May 2022)

I probably make between 5 and 10 front doors for customers each year. I use kiln dried timber which I buy from the timber merchant to begin milling and joining that same day and haven’t had any problems. I used to make them predominantly of oak but over the past few years I have been experimenting with other species as long as the customer approves. For example, in the street I live in is a Red Grandis door, a Utile door and 3 oak doors - all identical as it’s a conservation area - that I made and installed over the past 5-10 years and they all seem to be weathering identically well. There is also a pine door at number 16 I made for a landlord on a budget about 15 years ago and this still looks good too but I had to go back to ease this one a few months after I installed it. Unlike a lot of landlords he does keep on top of the painting to his credit.

Please note ours is an ‘L’ shaped street and only the utile door is facing full on into the prevailing weather at the intersection of the ‘L’; the others are side on. We are not permitted to have canopies in this area either.


----------



## spanner48 (24 May 2022)

Hpps said:


> We are just about to buy a grade 2 listed farm house, but as expected it comes with some things that we've been told need to be changed, one of which is the front door.
> The conservation officer as stated that it should be an oak 6 panel Georgian style with glazed to panels. Admittedly it will be an improvement on whats currently there, and I plan to make it myself.
> 
> My question is, due to it being an external door, once I've purchased the timber, can I just get started and make it straight away, or would the timber need to sit in my workshop for a while first? What moisture content should I be aiming for on an external door?


Let's start at the beginning: there s no "need to be changed". The Conservation Officer CANNOT order you do do anything to an existing building, whether listed or not, except in the case of a Dereliction Order. I'm assuming the house is not so derelict as to be the subject of that.

Once you've got that clear, and explained to the Conservation Officer the limits to her powers, you can discuss the door. 

Yes, replacing it will need Listed Building Consent - as will anything else external [if it's Grade 2, anything internal should be outwith LBC control]. But it should not need to be oak. Most Georgian doors were painted, and made of Baltic Pine. So it's important to make a distinction between what the CO _wants_, and what she has the _right_ to rule on. Conservation Officers are frequently maximalists, who try to impose their peculiar views on everything. If in doubt, find out who your Ward Councillor is, and get him/her involved. Ultimately, if you cannot get a reasonable response from the CO, you can ask your Councillor to have the LBC Application "called-in" to the Council's Planning Committee, for the elected Councillors to decide. And you get your chance to stand up in committe and convince them.


----------



## Suffolkboy (24 May 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Beech is not durable.


Not as durable as oak I am sure but far more durable than softwood surely?


----------



## thetyreman (24 May 2022)

Suffolkboy said:


> Not as durable as oak I am sure but far more durable than softwood surely?



it won't last long outdoors, it's not very durable at all.


----------



## Adam W. (24 May 2022)

Suffolkboy said:


> Not as durable as oak I am sure but far more durable than softwood surely?


Not really. Douglas fir, larch or Scots pine heartwood is much more durable than beech.


----------



## Suffolkboy (25 May 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Not really. Douglas fir, larch or Scots pine heartwood is much more durable than beech.


Fair enough.


----------



## Jacob (25 May 2022)

Hpps said:


> We are just about to buy a grade 2 listed farm house, but as expected it comes with some things that we've been told need to be changed, one of which is the front door.
> The conservation officer as stated that it should be an oak 6 panel Georgian style with glazed to panels. Admittedly it will be an improvement on whats currently there, and I plan to make it myself.
> 
> My question is, due to it being an external door, once I've purchased the timber, can I just get started and make it straight away, or would the timber need to sit in my workshop for a while first? What moisture content should I be aiming for on an external door?


6 panel Georgian door not likely to be oak. Almost always redwood or other good quality softwood. Painted or wood effect varnish.


----------



## TobyT (25 May 2022)

spanner48 said:


> Let's start at the beginning: there s no "need to be changed". The Conservation Officer CANNOT order you do do anything to an existing building, whether listed or not, except in the case of a Dereliction Order. I'm assuming the house is not so derelict as to be the subject of that.
> 
> Once you've got that clear, and explained to the Conservation Officer the limits to her powers, you can discuss the door.
> 
> Yes, replacing it will need Listed Building Consent - as will anything else external [if it's Grade 2, anything internal should be outwith LBC control]. But it should not need to be oak. Most Georgian doors were painted, and made of Baltic Pine. So it's important to make a distinction between what the CO _wants_, and what she has the _right_ to rule on. Conservation Officers are frequently maximalists, who try to impose their peculiar views on everything. If in doubt, find out who your Ward Councillor is, and get him/her involved. Ultimately, if you cannot get a reasonable response from the CO, you can ask your Councillor to have the LBC Application "called-in" to the Council's Planning Committee, for the elected Councillors to decide. And you get your chance to stand up in committe and convince them.


In addition you need to be sure what the listing covers. It may only cover certain aspects of the building.








Living in a Grade I, Grade II* or Grade II Listed Building | Historic England


Information and guidance for owners of Grade I, Grade II* and Grade II listed buildings




historicengland.org.uk


----------



## Housey210 (25 May 2022)

Always used japanese oak on such jobs.


----------



## Fidget (25 May 2022)

This is how the stiles to my new front door were made (not by me) No movement in 4 years


----------



## Hpps (31 May 2022)

TobyT said:


> In addition you need to be sure what the listing covers. It may only cover certain aspects of the building.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've already asked, it covers the whole building, as stated on the Historic England website


----------



## spanner48 (31 May 2022)

Fair enough; but that applies only to the exterior, since it's Grade 2.

Another thought: is it necessary entirely to renew the door? If not – if even heavy restoration/rebuilding the existing door will suffice, that becomes "Maintenance" rather than "New Work". And therefore not needing Listed Building Consent.


----------



## Hpps (31 May 2022)

spanner48 said:


> Fair enough; but that applies only to the exterior, since it's Grade 2.
> 
> Another thought: is it necessary entirely to renew the door? If not – if even heavy restoration/rebuilding the existing door will suffice, that becomes "Maintenance" rather than "New Work". And therefore not needing Listed Building Consent.


Unfortunately the door needs replacing as it's currently got a nice 1980's interpretation of a country cottage door


----------



## sawtooth-9 (1 Jun 2022)

spanner48 said:


> Let's start at the beginning: there s no "need to be changed". The Conservation Officer CANNOT order you do do anything to an existing building, whether listed or not, except in the case of a Dereliction Order. I'm assuming the house is not so derelict as to be the subject of that.
> 
> Once you've got that clear, and explained to the Conservation Officer the limits to her powers, you can discuss the door.
> 
> Yes, replacing it will need Listed Building Consent - as will anything else external [if it's Grade 2, anything internal should be outwith LBC control]. But it should not need to be oak. Most Georgian doors were painted, and made of Baltic Pine. So it's important to make a distinction between what the CO _wants_, and what she has the _right_ to rule on. Conservation Officers are frequently maximalists, who try to impose their peculiar views on everything. If in doubt, find out who your Ward Councillor is, and get him/her involved. Ultimately, if you cannot get a reasonable response from the CO, you can ask your Councillor to have the LBC Application "called-in" to the Council's Planning Committee, for the elected Councillors to decide. And you get your chance to stand up in committe and convince them.


Whilst there are some good reasons for conservation restrictions, there are too many interfering " do gooders " who actually do not know what they are doing.
God save us from council planners here and in UK


----------



## Doug71 (1 Jun 2022)

It's always best if you can keep the Conservation Officer onside, most of the ones I have come across have been fine. I have found as long as you do things traditionally and sympathetic to the building it should run smoothly.


----------



## Hpps (13 Jun 2022)

What are peoples thoughts on Accoya for external doors? As already mentioned, it'll be painted, so it's not that the conservation officer is wanting the look of exposed oak. I'm going to talk to them and see if I can get them to be a bit more open minded.


----------



## Ollie78 (13 Jun 2022)

Accoya is great for painted stuff, it doesn't hardly move at all, so the paint lasts well.
It comes off the planer and moulder nicely but it doesn't like a hand plane much, needs to be very sharp.

The dust is static and will stick everywhere and your workshop will smell like salt and viniger crisps.

Ollie


----------



## davethebb (30 Jun 2022)

Hpps, Firstly as a long-term owner of a Grade II property and with extensive experience dealing with the authorities, I would strongly recommend that you join the Listed Property Owners Club (LPOC). This will give you a great resource for advice etc.

This Grd II listing covers both *inside and out and also the garden *to the extent of the property curtilage (we have recently had to deal with this in our recent planning application for our workshop). In simple terms it regards the change of character e.g. you must maintain the character and the material used. at the time it was listed. It is important to understand when the property was listed and if you can find out with exvidence what the front door design was - you can use this as part of your LBC application which you will need to do -particularly as you have already discussed this with the CO as they may well check at a later date. If you can not find out details of the original door then you may have to go with the CO recommendation.

It is best to keep the CO on your side if you have extensive works to undertake and try and make him your best friend.......


----------



## Knottyone (9 Jul 2022)

That's a great piece of advice and, as an owner of a Grade2 listed building for thirty odd years now I heartily agree with it.

Steve.


----------



## davethebb (9 Jul 2022)

Thanks Steve. After spending almost year obtaining planning permission (LBC withdrawn as it technically fell out of the Grd II curtilage), you will see I am building a workshop in my garden - there is a thread in the workshop build forum.


----------

