# Circular saw safety



## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (8 Jun 2014)

Hi,
I have moved to a new house, and I now have space for a small workshop. Previously I have just made do with a limited selection of tools, but now I have the space I was hoping to get some new equipment to make many tasks quicker/easier. I intend to use the workshop mainly for making furniture for the house and garden, as well as general DIY type stuff.

One of the most important things that I lack at the moment is a good saw for accurately cutting sheet goods and ripping (I already have a SCMS for cross cuts). I have already ruled out a table saw because I wouldn't be able to fit in a decent sized table saw and infeed/outfeed tables, and I don't feel safe working on small table saws to break down large sheet goods or very long boards.
I was therefore looking at a good quality circular saw (or plunge saw) to use with a track so that I could make high quaility, accurate cuts. My budget is less than £350 including the tracks.
For that price, I was considering the Makita SP6000 plunge saw, the Metabo KSE 68 plus, or the Bosch GKS 65 GCE, all of which I could use on Makita guide rails. Another alternative would be the Makita 5008MG on the EZ track system.

The main thing that concerns me though is that with the exception of the Metabo, all of these saws lack a riving knife. The last time I was buying circular saws, the majority seemed to have a riving knife and I was under the impression that it was a requirement in the EU. If this was the case, then clearly it isn't anymore as many saws (possibly the majority) now seem to lack a riving knife.
I thought a riving knife was an effective way of protecting against kickbacks, and whilst I understand that some kickbacks are caused by operator error, surely there is still the danger of kickback caused by the thick natural timber closing up the kerf as it is cut? I know some people never liked the riving knife, but surely it is better to be able to fit one if you like.

I have searched all over for a reason for the lack of riving knives on many modern saws, but couldn't find an answer.
Therefore I have the following questions;
1) Do the saws without a riving knife have some sort of other protections built in to mitigate the lack of knife? If so, what are they? The Metabo says it has a mechanical clutch to protect, but it still has a riving knife too.
2) Is a saw designed to not have a riving knife inherently less safe than a saw with one? Why do manufacturers like Makita make both?
3) If there is a kickback with a plunge saw like the Makita, does it just push the blade back up into the guard before it can possibly lift off the workpiece? 
4) Does anyone know if the anti tilt catch on the Makita would prevent it lifting off the rail during a kickback?
5) Am I just being daft to worry about kickback on a hand held saw?

Also, if anyone has any thoughts, good or bad on the saws I am considering, then please let me know.

Cheers for any help


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## Distinterior (8 Jun 2014)

For the type of budget you have, and your description of your requirements, this would be a good choice...http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/4014 ... 400%20rail

It has got a riving knife, as does its predecessor the TS55 EBQ and its bigger brother the TS75 EBQ.

I know its only one rail at 1400mm long, but it is arguably the best saw for the work you describe.

Tim.


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## JJ1 (8 Jun 2014)

Another vote for the Festool TS55. If your budget will stretch just a little further, I would invest in, or make your own, MFT top and get a set of Parf dogs. I00% accurate cuts every time with the TS55.


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## petermillard (8 Jun 2014)

Welcome to the forum. The type of kickback you describe is, IME, usually only found when plunge-cutting in thicker stock, e.g. sink cut-outs in a kitchen worktop; I think you're unlikely to encounter it in regular sheet-cutting - I certainly haven't in ~12 years of track saw use (Festool). 

Re. Irving knives, I know Maffell say their saws are designed not to need one - perhaps the other manufacturers claim this as well? The Festool has a sprung Irving knife - slightly better price for that package at Powertool Supplies btw, here :- http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/fes ... -240v.html

I've only ever 'played with' the Makita saw, but I'm pretty sure there anti-tipping thing wouldn't stop kickback - it's certainly not designed to do that job.

HTH Pete


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## Steve Maskery (8 Jun 2014)

Given that MDF, plywood etc. does not have tension in it like timber does, the chances of the cut closing up behind the blade is tiny. I guess that is why they don't have one.
Ripping timber is a different matter entirely.


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## monkeybiter (8 Jun 2014)

> 5) Am I just being daft to worry about kickback on a hand held saw?



Not according to the 12" scar on my right knee! Having said that it was a borrowed saw and the first time I had ever used one. Didn't really know what I was doing. Entirely my own fault, plunge cutting floorboards. It's made me a lot more careful since, and it's now probably the tool I least like to use. Once bitten twice shy.


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## Mar_mite (8 Jun 2014)

Circular saws can kick back whilst cutting sheet goods if the workpiece isn't supported properly. My dewalt track saw does have a riving knife. I think they all do, they are sprung to allow the saw to be plunged.


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (8 Jun 2014)

Thanks for the quick replies and the recommendations/links.

I didn't think the Festool would be in my price range, but those deals are very tempting.
I have seen the Makita with 2x 1.4m rails and connectors for £301 at Lawson HIS. I was assuming that I would need 2 rails to be able to cut down a full size sheet of ply, and therefore assuming about £50 for an extra rail, plus £30 for connectors, that would put the TS55 at approximately £100 more than the Makita. Is the TS55 significantly better than the Makita? it looks a little lower powered and has a slightly smaller blade. Makita told me the SP6000 has about a 53mm depth of cut on the rails. Does the TS55 have as much depth of cut on the rails? On the other hand though, the Makita definitely doesn't have a riving knife.
Would it be easy enough to get away with using just 1 rail for the time being on the festool, and just do half the cut, then slide it along to complete the cut?

I should have said in my original post, I will be ripping natural boards too not just sheet goods. I realise that plunge cutting is a higher risk time for kickbacks, but are they still likely when just ripping natural timber? The sort of accident Monkeybiter mentioned is exactly what I was concerned about, although I don't think I will be doing many plunge cuts.
I tried asking Bosch and Makita about why they sometimes make saws without the riving knife, and they both just said that they didn't think they were really necessary and referred me to the kickback warnings in the instruction manuals which seem to be standard warnings for all manufacturers. It doesn't make much sense to me though, because they do put them on some saws, but not others.

The reason I was considering the Bosch GKS65GCE and Metabo KSE 68plus was because although they work in the track, I was thinking that because they are conventional saws, they might be more flexible for using off the tracks, as well as having a greater depth of cut. Are the plunge saws easy to use off the tracks as well as on?

Cheers again for all your advice.


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## JJ1 (8 Jun 2014)

> Does the TS55 have as much depth of cut on the rails?



The TS55's depth of cut is 50mm on the rail and 55mm without it.


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## Steve Maskery (8 Jun 2014)

I have a setting gauge for positioning my track. It references off the edge of the board. One gauge is for pieces wider than the track, the other is for ones narrower than the track.
You can set the track for half the cut and then move the track up. It's not as convenient, obviously, but it does save you a couple of hundred quid.
S


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## GLFaria (9 Jun 2014)

When I bought my most recent Bosch I went to the trouble of writing them asking why had they stopped including riving knives (which my previous one, some 30 years old, had) on their circular saws. Needless to say, being Bosch, they did'nt even bother to reply...


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## petermillard (9 Jun 2014)

Hugo_Wolfwhistle":34xo3bs4 said:


> The reason I was considering the Bosch GKS65GCE and Metabo KSE 68plus was because although they work in the track, I was thinking that because they are conventional saws, they might be more flexible for using off the tracks, as well as having a greater depth of cut. Are the plunge saws easy to use off the tracks as well as on?


In a pinch you can use a plunge saw off the rail - I've done it a few times but I wouldn't recommend it, and it's not how the saws are designed to be used. Hadn't realised the Bosch and Metabo were conventional circ. saws that can use a rail system; if you need the greater depth of cut, then you need it, though it puts you into a different neighbourhood with plunge saws e.g. Festool TS75 or the bigger Maffell. I had a quick look at a promotional video for the Bosch, and have to say that the dust collection doesn't look too clever - though obviously I've never used one, so perhaps someone else can chip in if they have??

FWIW I've used my TS55 with a standard blade for longish RIP cuts in 'real tree wood' on the rail at max. depth of cut without any issues; probably would have gone a bit quicker if I'd swapped out the standard blade for a ripping blade, but you know, 'it's only' one cut, 'I'll just' use what I have to hand. As an aside, those two phrases - "it's only" and "I'll just" - should set alarm bells ringing whenever they're heard/thought, especially in combination. All too frequently it means you're about to do something that you know you shouldn't, or could be done better and more safely by another means...

You _can_ use a single rail to make a cut, then slide it along to make the second half of a long cut - again, it isn't ideal, but you can do it if you need to, though I'd guess that you won't make many such cuts before buying a second rail. In case you're not aware, the Makita and Festool rails are largely compatible with each other (the anti-tipping lip on the Makita rails can get in the way of some accessories) and the Makita rails can often be found a bit cheaper, though they don't have the range of sizes that Festool provide, and again, IME, the Makita rails aren't quite as good e.g. less 'grippy' stuff on the base.

HTH Pete


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (10 Jun 2014)

> As an aside, those two phrases - "it's only" and "I'll just" - should set alarm bells ringing whenever they're heard/thought, especially in combination. All too frequently it means you're about to do something that you know you shouldn't, or could be done better and more safely by another means...



Ahh, how many times have I found that to be true! Usually resulting in a lot of time correcting the initial "short cut".

Sounds like you guys all really rate the Festool though, but the best I can find it with the 2 rails is £385 assuming I would need 2 rail connectors, which is really pushing my budget, but maybe it is a price worth paying for the riving knife. I suppose I was sort of hoping that the Makita would be good enough and that you guys would tell me the lack of riving knife as a non issue which would have made the decision easy!



> Re. Irving knives, I know Maffell say their saws are designed not to need one - perhaps the other manufacturers claim this as well?



That is interesting about the Maffel, I think I found the press release you were talking about. I have sent an email to a couple of manufacturers and also to the HSE to see if any of them can tell me why they don't bother with riving knives anymore, so hopefully I will get some sort of response.
I did have a quick glance through the British Standard for circular saws, and the only difference I could see is that saws without the riving knife have to have a slightly faster blade/guard retraction time. Also read somewhere that it might be related to TCT blades being more common now, and less likely to kickback since the teeth are much wider than the blade body, but I don't know how true that is.



> If your budget will stretch just a little further, I would invest in, or make your own, MFT top and get a set of Parf dogs. I00% accurate cuts every time with the TS55.



I can get access to a CNC machine so I had thought about making something very similar with some sort of t-tracks around the sides too.




petermillard":3c9bfsy2 said:


> if you need the greater depth of cut, then you need it, though it puts you into a different neighbourhood with plunge saws e.g. Festool TS75 or the bigger Maffell.


My requirement for depth of cut is really 50mm at the moment to go through rough sawn 2 by as a maximum. Given standard timber sizes, there aren't many standard thicknesses that the 190mm saws could cut that the Festool/Makita couldn't, although if the Festool can only just cut 50mm on the rail, then can it actually cut a rough sawn 2 by? Therefore I suppose the only real advantage to the greater depth of cut on the Metabo would be for cutting bevels which I probably wouldn't be doing too often in really thick stuff. Still, nice to have. The TS75 and Maffel are definitely out of my price range unfortunately.

On the down side, that Metabo doesn't maintain the cut same cut line when beveling on the track, so I would either have to replace the splinter strips, or not bevel on the rails with it.


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## Sawyer (10 Jun 2014)

Hugo_Wolfwhistle":1e7m0qs4 said:


> 5) Am I just being daft to worry about kickback on a hand held saw?



No, Hugo, you are not. The more powerful ones can kick like a mule and correct functioning of the guard is _very_ important.

Being in the market, a while ago, for a good quality and hefty saw, I was on the point of buying a Bosch before - fortunately - noticing that it had no riving knife. To discover Bosch indulging in this dangerous folly came as quite a surprise and I promptly bought a Makita instead.

True, I use mine almost entirely on solid stock - ripping wane off prior to the table saw, so pinching is a frequent issue, but I cannot see any good reason why dispensing with the riving knife is advantageous even on sheet materials. I'm interested to learn the answer though, if anybody knows it?

Also worth remembering is that _in extremis_ a riving knife would guard the back of the blade somewhat.


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## MickCheese (10 Jun 2014)

Kickback!

I have had kickback from my Makita track saw twice that I can remember.

As already said when not securing down the boards and this past weekend cutting 18mm 8x4 sheets. I plunged the saw into the start of the cut before it had spun up to full speed. Left a nasty scar across the track, at least it was only the track.

So from now on will make sure the motor is up to speed before plunging.

It maybe that the Festool run up to speed faster, would be interested to know.

Mick


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## Eric The Viking (10 Jun 2014)

MickCheese":3hozuzrd said:


> Kickback!
> 
> I have had kickback from my Makita track saw twice that I can remember.
> 
> ...



Me too, also an SP6000K. 

In my case it was t+g chipboard flooring. I didn't do any damage to the rail though, only gouged the stock I was cutting. 

I have used the anti-tip system a fair bit, and I'm not sure I'd want to use it as a kickback preventer. 

When it happened to me, the saw came mainly straight up. That was OK, as it pushed back into the guard (mainly). If the back of the rail had been engaged it would have tipped backwards, potentially 'baring its teeth' if you see what I mean.

Mick is spot on - sharp blade, care, and wating for full speed before plunging are all the key things. These aren't toys.

I really like my Makita (made in the UK, incidentally), BUT a dull blade is a lot more awkward than a proper sharp one. I've now got two fine-tooth ones, so I can swap over as soon as one goes off - finishing the job without being tempted to force a blunted blade. 

My local branch of Leitz tooling will sharpen them for a lot less than replacement cost, so it's worth it. I think you can get 5 or 8 resharpens out of a blade, as long as you don't let it get too bad in between.

Cheers,

E.


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (10 Jun 2014)

Cheers for sharing the experiences of the SP6000. So both of those kickbacks were whilst plunging, so I suppose the riving knife wouldn't have helped there anyway. I have always hated doing plunge cuts with a normal circular saw, and sounds like they can still be a little risky even with the plunge saws. Luckilly I don't need to do them often.



Sawyer":2xrwk13y said:


> The more powerful ones can kick like a mule and correct functioning of the guard is _very_ important.



I am also lucky enough that I haven't personally experienced kickbacks on a circular saw in the past, but when looking for the new saw I have seen/read/heard of a lot of horror stories. I am curious though, are kickbacks on the smaller saws, like the 165mm and 190mm controllable when they happen? or are they far too quick/powerful to reliably control?



Eric The Viking":2xrwk13y said:


> Me too, also an SP6000K.
> 
> In my case it was t+g chipboard flooring. I didn't do any damage to the rail though, only gouged the stock I was cutting.
> 
> ...



Interesting that on the plunge saw the kickback pushed the blade straight up into the retracted position. Makita's response to my question on regarding the lack of knife on the SP6000 was just that they say because it is a plunge saw, it doesn't count as a circular saw and therefore doesn't need a knife! Seems like a technicality to me though and not a proper answer. Maybe they feel that plunge saws retract before they can jump back, although clearly MickCheese's rails would disagree!
Good to know your thoughts on the anti-tilt lock though, I only asked because I wondered if it could work like those anti-kickback stops for the festool that hook on the back of the saw.

Another thing, if plunge saw kickbacks do push the blade and saw up, then surely the anti-kickback gizmo on the Dewalt track saw wouldn't achieve much as it only appears to stop it sliding back whilst on the rail, so as soon as it lifts off, it would surely be useless wouldn't it?



GLFaria":2xrwk13y said:


> When I bought my most recent Bosch I went to the trouble of writing them asking why had they stopped including riving knives (which my previous one, some 30 years old, had) on their circular saws. Needless to say, being Bosch, they did'nt even bother to reply...



When I asked Bosch the same thing last week, at first they sounded quite confused by the question, and then they came to the conclusion that if they didn't have knives on their saws anymore and because they reckon their saws are the best, then riving knives were useless and unnecessary. I asked if they had any other safety device instead, but they said no. Put me completely off their saws to be honest, which is a shame as the GKS65 GCE otherwise looks like pretty good fit for my needs.

Still waiting for an answer from Makita about the lack of knife on the 5008MG and HS7100 when they have it on their other saws, they normally are very quick at answering questions, but in this case they have been silent for over a week.

Cheers


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Jun 2014)

So Bosch don't respond to you, GL? It' Makita that don't respond to me.


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## dm65 (10 Jun 2014)

Must be a new 'feature' on the Bosch saws then (and yes, that is a Bosch approved pencil)


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## GLFaria (11 Jun 2014)

phil.p":2iy49z9a said:


> So Bosch don't respond to you, GL? It' Makita that don't respond to me.


Well, to be honest, I have only been waiting for a couple years or so. Maybe in another couple years...


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## Stu_2 (12 Jun 2014)

Where possible, I never stand directly behind any circular saw. Tend to use the TS55 for most stuff now. 

The anti-kickback blocks that attaches to the track are really useful in stopping the saw moving backwards a bit when plunging, which is especially useful when plunging into worktops etc.

Looks like there are some great deals on the TS55 knocking about now.


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## markturner (12 Jun 2014)

I have been using the Festool plunge saws since they first came out, many times plunge cutting worktops ( kitchen fitting my main occupation before I got stuck behind this desk...  )

You have to be careful and sensible, I see so many of my guys using these saws unsafely, their rails with scars across them and chunks cut out of them, usually caused by not supporting the workpiece properly and going at it like a bull in a china shop. I have never had a problem, you have to listen to what the saw is telling you. Festool also sell a little plastic attachment to the rail, that clamps over the end of the saw to prevent kickback.

Spend the extra money and get the Festool....you wont regret it.


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (13 Jun 2014)

dm65":e3hhhhio said:


> Must be a new 'feature' on the Bosch saws then (and yes, that is a Bosch approved pencil)]



I think it must just be the big Bosch that seems to still have the riving knife. Just out of interest, how well do you find the dust collection works on that saw? Is it pretty easy to handle given the size/weight/power? I had assumed it would be a bit bigger than what I would need, but would be interested to hear what you reckon.



Stu_2":e3hhhhio said:


> Looks like there are some great deals on the TS55 knocking about now.





markturner":e3hhhhio said:


> Spend the extra money and get the Festool....you wont regret it.



You guys have pretty much convinced me to spend the cash and get the TS55, it does look a fantastic bit of kit. Only thing is I am worried about depth of cut with it. I am confused as to whether it would be able to cut through 2 inch rough sawn timber given that it states it has 50mm depth of cut on the rail, and 2 inches is a touch more than that (50.8mm I think). Does anyone know if in reality it can cut 2 inch timber on the track?

What confuses me is that as I understand it, the makita and festool rails are pretty much identical, however Makita tech support told me the SP6000 has 56mm depth of cut off the rail, and they reckon it only looses 2mm when used on the rail, so how come the festool goes from 55mm off the rail to 50mm on the same rails? Or have Makita given me mis-information?
Haven't ruled out the Metabo on festool/makita rails. It is still tempting me too because then I would only need 1 tool for both rail use and more general work (plus the extra depth if I need it later) only problem is it doesn't maintain the cut line when beveling on the track unfortunately, so would either have to bevel off the track, or remove the splinter strip when bevelling, or maybe just tilt the whole track and clamp.

If the TS55 doesn't have enough depth of cut to do 2 inches, then I guess my only other options would be to either look at the Dewalt track saw (claims 59mm off the rail, 55mm on, but had heard reviews saying there were quality issues with it, not sure if they are true though).
Possibly I could see if it would be possible to add a kind of retrofitted wedge/fin type thing to the back of the SP6000 to act as a sort of riving knife and make sure the kerf cant close up.

I reckon if I did get the TS55 (or dewalt or sp6000) then I would also need to pick up a 2nd hand standard saw (with riving knife!) like the Makita 5703/4 or Hitachi for rougher off the rails work too.

One thing is for certain though, I am now convinced I definitely want a riving knife, no matter which saw I choose.


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## Mar_mite (13 Jun 2014)

I've had my dewalt track saw for about 2 1/2 years. In that time it's been used virtually every day, been dropped off the bench a dozen times, had paint spilled on it. And been left out in the rain. It hasn't missed a beat. I'd buy another in tomorrow if it packed in. I've used it side by side with the festool and while the festool feels a bit slicker, I've never felt the dewalt to be a poor mans equivalent.


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## petermillard (13 Jun 2014)

Hugo_Wolfwhistle":3qdpnvh2 said:


> You guys have pretty much convinced me to spend the cash and get the TS55, it does look a fantastic bit of kit.


Don't know of anyone who's bought one and regretted it.



> Only thing is I am worried about depth of cut with it. I am confused as to whether it would be able to cut through 2 inch rough sawn timber given that it states it has 50mm depth of cut on the rail, and 2 inches is a touch more than that (50.8mm I think). Does anyone know if in reality it can cut 2 inch timber on the track?


Can't remember the last time I saw 'rough sawn timber' in my local yard - it's all 'regularised' now, and tbh was only ever nominally 2" timber, but yes, I have used my TS55 to cut 8x2" without any issues - but that's 8x2 from my timber yard... 



> Haven't ruled out the Metabo on festool/makita rails. It is still tempting me too because then I would only need 1 tool for both rail use and more general work (plus the extra depth if I need it later) only problem is it doesn't maintain the cut line when beveling on the track unfortunately, so would either have to bevel off the track, or remove the splinter strip when bevelling, or maybe just tilt the whole track and clamp.


Second rail dedicated to bevel cuts would be the safe option.



> I reckon if I did get the TS55 (or dewalt or sp6000) then I would also need to pick up a 2nd hand standard saw (with riving knife!) like the Makita 5703/4 or Hitachi for rougher off the rails work too.


Sounds like a plan, if you expect to do a significant amount of 'rougher off the rails work'. Let us know what you decide.

Cheers, Pete


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## busy builder (13 Jun 2014)

I've had a Festool TS55 for about 5 years now, use it almost daily. Mainly for cutting doors but also sheet materials. It is a cracking saw, I also have a Mafell KSP40, this is also a very good tool to have about but only cuts 40mm.

If I were to replace my TS55 it would be with the Mafell equivalent, the MT55, as Mafell are superior in many ways to Festool for site work. And they all have a riving knife that moves with the plunge. I've never once had any kickback either.


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## dm65 (13 Jun 2014)

hugo_wolfwhistle":1s3roaqz said:


> I think it must just be the big Bosch that seems to still have the riving knife. Just out of interest, how well do you find the dust collection works on that saw? Is it pretty easy to handle given the size/weight/power? I had assumed it would be a bit bigger than what I would need, but would be interested to hear what you reckon.


The way I've used it up to now, it's not as bad as you may think given it's size, but I have only used it with guides (now have two 4ft rails but haven't used them yet) and never freehand nor plunging

It's only been used outside so haven't bothered with extraction and can't answer your question - sorry

Smooth as you like on startup though 

And something this big is always too big until you need either it's power or cutting capacity imho

I only have this cos I got it for an absolute steal - I won't even torment you with the price :wink:


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## chippy1970 (13 Jun 2014)

Another vote for ts55 here I've owned one since 2007 and now have the newer version. Try a company called nuts & bolts if not ffx and toolfest are good too.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


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## shed9 (15 Jun 2014)

Another vote for the Festool, and N&B ( http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/ ) as they generally have very good pricing and their service is spot on every time. I tend to use N&B for core Festool items but sometimes get bits and pieces from FFX.

For me, the only downside to the Festool is that I didn't get it earlier. I used to scoff at Festool prices however since becoming a user I can say it is definitely worth the extra. Be warned, its a slippery slope when you start buying Festool - it can be addictive for some.

They have a 15 day try out option so if you don't think its for you then you can send it back for a full refund. If you keep it, you get a 3 year warranty against defect and theft (who else does this?), plus they will guarantee to stock spares for ten years for your model.

Also, not sure if it was mentioned up there but you may need to consider dust extraction depending on where you intend to do your cutting.


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## Distinterior (15 Jun 2014)

Ditto to what Shed9 said.

A good dust extractor makes a big difference, not having to clear up all the sawdust at the end of a working day is a real bonus. I have 2, one for work whilst out on a jobsite and the bigger CT26 for my workshop. Super efficient and quiet.

But, as Shed9 said, be warned!!!!.........it is a very slippery slope when you get used to using tools of this quality. I find now, that every time I need to replace one of my existing tools, the first thing I look for is the latest Festool catalogue.


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (16 Jun 2014)

Mar_mite":3d9rdey8 said:


> I've had my dewalt track saw for about 2 1/2 years. In that time it's been used virtually every day, been dropped off the bench a dozen times, had paint spilled on it. And been left out in the rain. It hasn't missed a beat. I'd buy another in tomorrow if it packed in. I've used it side by side with the festool and while the festool feels a bit slicker, I've never felt the dewalt to be a poor mans equivalent.



Thats re-assuring to know. I had just seen a review from someone calling themselves lumberjackass that wasn't very complimentary about the quality, but the problem with a lot of online reviews is that they are often based on very short term impressions, so good to hear that your longer term experience has been good. I will now seriously consider the dewalt too since it appears to be about the only other plunge saw to have the riving knife (well except for some of those Mafell KSS ones that I can't afford anyway).
If I did go for the dewalt I think I would put it on festool rails though so that I can get compatibility with all the festool/makita accessories. Do you know if the Dewalt's adjusters for rail tolerance work on both the central (Dewalt) rail groove and it's other (festool) rail groove? Do you find the bevel setting accurate?



petermillard":3d9rdey8 said:


> Can't remember the last time I saw 'rough sawn timber' in my local yard - it's all 'regularised' now, and tbh was only ever nominally 2" timber, but yes, I have used my TS55 to cut 8x2" without any issues - but that's 8x2 from my timber yard...



Thanks for confirming, if it can do that, then I think that is all I need in terms of cut depth, at least for now.



chippy1970":3d9rdey8 said:


> Try a company called nuts & bolts if not ffx and toolfest are good too



Yeah, someone already posted a link to them earlier and the prices do look great. The festool was out of my price range until I saw their prices. I have a couple of other things I need though, so might see if the FFX multi-buy discount makes them cheaper.

Wish I had a local dealer in the tyneside area who carried track saws though so I could have a good look at a couple before making my decision (would be happy to pay a little more just for that to be honest), but all the tool companies round here don't seem to carry them.



Distinterior":3d9rdey8 said:


> A good dust extractor makes a big difference


I did have a quick look round for a new shop vacuum, but can't justify spending too much on this. Would an old home vacuum do OK (it is a vax cylone type), as I have one spare? If not do you have any suggestions for a cheap one ( <£100 ). I find that they hardly ever mention what particle sizes they filter.
Will any shop vacuum fitted with a dust bag give adequate filtration?

In terms of my question about the lack of riving knives on newer saws, I have now heard back from a few manufacturers, and Makita have given me the contact of their technical director to ask him the question, so when I hear back from him, and also the HSE, I will post the summary of all the reasons they have given.

Cheers


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## shed9 (16 Jun 2014)

Hugo_Wolfwhistle":qmr81q81 said:


> Will any shop vacuum fitted with a dust bag give adequate filtration?



Depends on what your cutting and the type of dust. Also, its likely that most sheet goods will contain formaldehyde based glues. If your in an environment which could expose you to the dust, do as much research on the extraction of it as you have on the saw itself. 

Just my opinion, but don't skimp on this aspect; being exposed to wood dust is serious business these days, it catches up on you.


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (3 Jul 2014)

Right,
I have had a few responses back from various manufacturers on the riving knife issue, so thought I would post them here and see what you all think.
Although all of the emails/phone conversations were slightly different, I asked all of the manufacturers the following questions;

 Why do many new circular saws in their ranges lack a riving knife?
 Do the saws without the riving knife have an alternative safety feature instead of the riving knife?
 Are saws without the knife only for particular uses (e.g. crosscuts or sheet goods)?
 If doing rip cuts in natural timber, is it safer to use a saw with or without a riving knife?


*Bosch:*
They no longer have riving knives on any of their current corded circular saws, with the exception of the GKS 85 G Professional. I initially emailed them for an answer, but they didn't reply, so I called them and spoke to a service/tech support guy who then also involved a few other people, their answers were as follows;

 Don't know why not fitted any more, apart from to say that if they don't have it on their saws then it must not be a useful feature.
 No alternative safety feature instead of knife
 No, can be used for all cuts
 They just said they think all of their saws are as safe as possible.
To be honest, I was pretty disappointed with their responses, they didn't seem to have any real reasons or explanations, just sales propaganda.


*Evolution Tools;*
This company makes 3 circular saws, 1 with riving knives, 2 without. I spoke to their tech support department on the phone. The main expert was on holiday, but his colleague was still very helpful. His answers were as follows;

 Believes that the regulations for circular saws changed a few years ago (possibly 2008/9) , meaning that new saws don’t have to have a riving knife. He said that he thinks that their saw with a knife (the original Rage) was designed before the regulation changes, whereas their other 2 saws without the knife (Rage B and Rage 230) were designed after the change.
When I asked why not still design them with a riving knife anyway, he pointed out that their saws are aimed at metal cutting where kerf closing is less of a problem, and therefore a riving knife wasn’t a priority. He said that their saws are based on existing/generic designs which are then modified to feature their proprietary high torque motor/gearbox and multi-material blade technology, so probably the generic designs they based their later saws on just didn’t have a riving knife.
Interestingly the rep also thinks (but stresses he couldn't be sure) that the change in regulations was at least partly due to TCT blades becoming the norm. He points out that TCT blades have a thicker kerf with respect to the blade body thickness meaning that pinching is less likely than old HSS blades. Also he thinks that on a TCT blade, the teeth at the back of the blade remain quite efficient at cutting, and therefore with modern powerful saws can often cut themselves free if they do start to get pinched. The rep has promised to double check this with their main expert/engineer when he returns from holiday to see if he was correct.
 The rep said that the new saws comply with the latest safety regulations for saws without riving knives, but that he was not sure of any particular additional safety devices on the saws without the riving knife.
 The support rep said that whilst the saws could be used for any cuts, although they don’t recommend plunge cuts, and he points out that their saws are meant for doing multi material cutting.
 The rep said that he is not sure of the answer to this, but personally he would choose to use a saw with a riving knife for long cuts in natural timber.
I have to say I was very impressed by the approach of the support rep when answering the questions. He was helpful, friendly and sounded genuinely interested. I have an Evolution SCMS and I am very happy with it, and combined with the experience of talking to their rep, I have to say I really like this company and hope they go far.


*Hitachi:*
Hitachi also put me straight through to a very knowledgeable chap who was helpful.

 He pointed out that Hitachi offer both types of saw, and therefore leave it up to the buyer to decide. When I asked why not have the ability to fit a riving knife to all saws and then just leave it up to the operator to choose if they want to fit it or not, instead of having separate models, he didn't know why.
He also mentioned the change in regulations a few years back which relaxed the requirement for the riving knife, and that he thinks the use of TCT blades (with the thicker kerf compared to blade body thickness) had something to do with the change in regulations.
 He said that he didn't know of any additional safety features on the saws without riving knives though. Although he did say that all of their saws meet the relevant safety standards.
 He said that their saws without the knife are designed more for plunge cutting, whilst the saws with a knife are designed more for ripping
 When I then asked if that meant that the saws without the knife are less safe if doing ripping, he agreed that he thought this was the case.


*Makita:*
I contacted Makita 3 times, first was an email from before I started this thread asking some questions about the SP6000 as follows;


> Good afternoon, I am very interested in the Maikta SP6000 plunge/track saw system, however before buying, I have a few questions about it that I was hoping you may be able to answer for me.
> 1) What is the max depth of cut for the saw when it is on the rails, I could not tell if the depth stated on your website was with or without the rails?
> 2) I noticed that the saw does not feature a riving knife (unlike some competitor’s saws), I was under the impression that for circular saws sold in the EU, a riving knife should be fitted unless there is some sort of active and/or passive mitigation designed into the saw to prevent kickbacks. I realize that your saw features a latch to prevent the saw tipping off the rail when doing bevel cuts, does this also prevent the saw jumping up and off the rail as well during a kickback? If this is not the case, then does the saw feature any other safety systems to protect against kick-back and mitigate the lack of a riving knife? As an example of what I mean, Mafell have stated that their mt55 saw has additional safety features to account for the lack of riving knife as discussed here; http://festoolownersgroup.com/other-too ... e/40/?wap2 )
> 3) Will an anti chip accessory be available for the offcut side like there is for the festool saws?
> ...


Makita replied with the following;


> Good Morning, to answer your questions, the SP6000 is designed to be used with or without a guide rail, if used with it will take approx 2mm of the max depth of cut. The unit does not feature a riving knife, it is a plunge saw with fully encased guard, with high speed retraction, in reference to the kickback questions I will quote from the manual - 'Kickback is the result of saw misuse and/or incorrect operating procedures or conditions and can be avoided by taking proper precaution as given... '. There is no anti chip accessory available and we do not recommend or supply blades for circular saws to cut steel.


I then sent them some more emails asking for more information about why some of their saws lack the riving knife. Basically asking the same 4 questions I asked the other manufacturers. I initially received no response, but after chasing it up over the phone, I was given the contact information for their technical coordinator (Makita UK), a helpful and knowledgeable guy called Terry Wooding. I had a good phone conversation with him on 19th June, and this is the summary of his answers;

 Newer Makita saws don't have riving knife due to changes to BS EN 60745-2-5 meaning that they are no longer mandatory. The saws which Makita produce with the riving knife are of older existing designs, whereas all of their new saw designs lack a riving knife.
He believes that going forward all new Makita circular saw designs will not have the riving knife, although he is not ruling out the possibility of designing new model featuring a riving knife completely. He also believes that this is the way that the industry as a whole will go.
He did however mention that Makita likes to keep existing models (albeit with some slight updates) on the market for a long time, maybe decades, and therefore Makita will continue to produce their existing models with riving knives for the foreseeable future.
 In terms of the reasons for the change to the regulations and leaving the riving knife off new models, Terry said that the riving knife only protects against kickbacks due to kerf closing, and that he doesn't think that the riving knife actually did much even in this case on modern saws.
He said that the new saws without the riving knives have more powerful motors which cut more quickly and don’t get slowed down as easily as on old saws (I got the impression he meant that they maintain the speed under load), and with the TCT teeth on modern saws the teeth are less likely to bind when pinched and more likely to cut themselves free.
The 2nd factor he mentioned was that when the regulations changed, they placed a much greater emphasis on blade guard safety. In particular the regulations now require the guard to snap closed more quickly and reliably. Terry points out that a saw with a riving knife needs to have a slit in the blade guard or a 2 part guard to go around the knife (because the knife needs to be so close to the blade), therefore when designing their new saws Makita decided to leave off the riving knife so that they could use a much more solid blade guard in conjunction with a stronger, more reliable guard closing system. Makita’s reasoning for this is that a faster closing and more reliable guard can protect the user from danger in the event of any form of kickback or accident, whereas a riving knife can only reduce the chance of certain kickbacks happening. Further to this he said that if a saw has a riving knife and the riving knife and/or the blade guard becomes bent or misaligned then it can easily interfere with the blade guard which slows or in extreme cases prevents the guard closing. With the more robust guards featured on saws without the riving knife, the guard is less likely to be bent or damaged due to knocks and drops, and therefore is less likely to be slowed down or jammed.
 No, can be used for all cuts
 Terry said that both saws with and without the knife are safe for rip cuts
I also asked specifically about kickback on the SP6000. Terry said that the regulations for fast blade retraction also apply to plunge saws and that during a kickback, and that the kickback forces on plunge saws should push the blade up into the blade housing before it can leave the rail.


*HSE:*
I also contacted the HSE to see what they thought, and this was their reply;


> There is a standard for this type of tool that hand held circular saw manufacturers should comply with.
> 
> This is BS EN 60745-2-5:2010 Hand-held motor-operated electric tools — Safety Part 2-5: Particular requirements for circular saws.
> 
> ...




So, what do you guys make of those answers?


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## Eric The Viking (3 Jul 2014)

The thin saw-plate thing strikes me as hubris. It's the teeth of the saw that catch, not the plate pinching (at least, not for many years on handheld saws), and, of all the saw types, handhelds are probably the most likely to be forced through stock when blunt.

With a hand-held saw, the most likely reason for kickback is the operator twisting it off-line in use, and there are two axes in which this can occur: direction left-right, and tipping-over.

As the owner of a Makita (which I like a lot, incidentally), I'm reluctant to say this, but I think Festool have it right (with, IIRC, a spring-loaded, retractable riving knife). On a rail, it's relatively safe. Freehand or against a guide, not so good.

E.

PS: Of course, a properly set up rail saw also has the blade on a very slight skew to the forward movement (thickness of 80g paper front-to-back). This is to give a clean finish to the stock under the rail, BUT it must also increase the chance of kickback. Another point in favour of Festool...


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## GLFaria (3 Jul 2014)

Hugo_Wolfwhistle":3daj3dly said:


> So, what do you guys make of those answers?



Thank you very much for this report

The answers, or lack theroff, from Bosch are apalling, and only confirm a feeling I already had for some years - Bosch couldn't care less for their smaller products customers (I guess they may act differentelly when they are dealing with a big company, trying to sell heavy equipment).
It will hit back someday. As for me, unless I have no other choice, Bosch is written off.

One thing strikes me - all makers seem to shield themselves behind legislation for not supplying a riving knife provision. Never mind if this may be a safety issue for the operator, as the regulations say there is no need for it, they choose not to supply it. A bit it shocking.


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## petermillard (3 Jul 2014)

Perhaps the retracting/sprung riving knife is still a Festool patent, like the click-stop depth adjustment?? Would certainly explain why no other manufacturer uses it.


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (8 Jul 2014)

Eric The Viking":1o1darzp said:


> The thin saw-plate thing strikes me as hubris. It's the teeth of the saw that catch, not the plate pinching (at least, not for many years on handheld saws), and, of all the saw types, handhelds are probably the most likely to be forced through stock when blunt.



They seemed to be suggesting that if the teeth do begin to get a bit pinched, then if the saw is powerful enough and the teeth are sharp, then they should just cut rather than bind, and it would only be if the teeth were blunt or the disk of the blade got pinched that it would actually grab the blade. As I said, not sure if this is true or not, but I could sort of see how it could be true, especially on the more powerful saws with the constant speed electronics.

I guess that it would only apply with sharp teeth though, but then again the manufacturers probably say you should always use sharp blades anyway. You are obviously right though, I imagine a lot of people use fairly blunt blades in real life.


Incidentally, I just noticed that screwfix's deal of the day was this circular saw blade from Dewalt;
http://www.screwfix.com/p/dewalt-dt...-of-3/24169?cm_sp=Landing_page-_-DOTD-_-24169
In the description I noticed that it said "Suitable for Corded Saws with No Riving Knife", and also if you look at the picture of the blade it's self, then there is clearly a diagram indicating that it should *not* be used in conjunction with a riving knife. I have never seen that on a blade before though, and I can't think of a good reason for it either, however maybe it does suggest that the blade does have an impact on if a riving knife is needed or not.




Eric The Viking":1o1darzp said:


> With a hand-held saw, the most likely reason for kickback is the operator twisting it off-line in use, and there are two axes in which this can occur: direction left-right, and tipping-over.
> 
> As the owner of a Makita (which I like a lot, incidentally), I'm reluctant to say this, but I think Festool have it right (with, IIRC, a spring-loaded, retractable riving knife). On a rail, it's relatively safe. Freehand or against a guide, not so good.



Makita's point on this was that a riving knife wouldn't actually be very effective at preventing a kickback due to operator twisting off-line/tipping as the knife isn't rigid enough. The Makita guy was saying that the riving knife on the hand held saws was only really designed to prevent kickback due to the timber pinching the blade (e.g. due to natural wood tension stress movement or due to incorrectly supporting the wood). Therefore he was saying that they think it is better to give up the riving knife (which only protects against some types of kickback) so that they can make a better guard which reduces the damage if the saw kicks regardless of what caused it.
I don't think this applies to the riving knives on table saws though which I assume must be more substantial or something.




GLFaria":1o1darzp said:


> One thing strikes me - all makers seem to shield themselves behind legislation for not supplying a riving knife provision. Never mind if this may be a safety issue for the operator, as the regulations say there is no need for it, they choose not to supply it. A bit it shocking.


I suspect I maybe just couldn't get to speak to the right person at Bosch, I reckon if they would have bothered to forward my questions on to their design team, then they would have been able to answer similar to the others. Just a shame that they didn't seem to want to do that.

In terms of the hiding behind regulations, I can see why they do that. I work in Engineering, and it is quite common that companies, even rivals, will group together into industry bodies, and then they decide how they are going to interpret national standards and regulations in a common way between all companies. That way if they all stick to the common interpretation and way of doing things, then it becomes much harder for one of them to be taken to sued.

Personally I think it is probably a good thing that they all follow the standards and regulations, but I wish it was clearer why the regulations changed in this case. For example, if they could show some reasoning and evidence for why the change is good.
The general opinion from most wood workers I have spoken to seems to be that the riving knife does help, but if the manufacturers or regulatory bodies could show conclusive evidence to the contrary, then that would be something at least.

What was very disappointing was the response from the Health and Safety Executive on the subject. They say to refer to the British Standard BS EN 60745-2-5:2010 (actually a European standard) and then say they are not responsible for the standard themselves, however when I asked British Standards about who writes that particular document, they told me the people on the committee and it is basically the HSE and the trade body for the power tool manufacturers! The other members were more to do with the environmental and electrical aspects.


Anyway I found a copy of the European standard in question and have been reading through it to see what it actually says. Unfortunately it doesn't give reasons for the changes explicitly, however to summarise what I have learned from it so far;

 The main concern of the regulations does indeed seem to be focused on the blade guard and it's speed and reliability. In particular the regulations say;


> 19.102.2 For saws having a blade with a diameter less than 210 mm, the closing time of the lower guard shall not exceed 0,2 s. For saws having a blade diameter 210 mm and above, the closing time of the lower guard in seconds, shall be less than the numerical equivalent of the largest specified blade diameter, expressed in metres, but not more than 0,3 s.
> Compliance is checked by measurements. The measurement is carried out at maximum depth of cut and 90°. The saw is held with the base plate in horizontal position, the lower guard being at bottom. The lower guard is retracted fully and then allowed to close.



 The regulations also say that the guard must be designed to work at this speed even after a life of at least 50,000 open/close cycles.
 It specifies that the reliability and speed of the guard closing must not be affected by build up of dust from cutting. In particular it says;


> 17.102 The lower guard, or the guarding system as shown in Figure 104, shall be resistant against environmental and foreseeable dust accumulation.



 The regulations require that the guard closing time of the is tested after the saw has performed 1000 cuts in soft wood, then 1000 in 5 layer ply, then 1000 in MDF. Without any cleaning of the dust, and without dust extraction, the closing time must still meet the time requirements.
 The regulations also require that the guard closing time is met after the saw has been dropped 3 times from a height of 1m onto concrete. The saw must be dropped in what the regulations describe as the most unfavorable positions.
 The regulations also say that on plunge saws, if the blade retracts into the housing, it has to lock in the retracted position automatically
 The regulations has warnings about even light interference between the riving knife and blade guard causing the blade guard not to retract properly or fast enough.
 It also seems concerned about the riving knife getting bent during drops, which it says can actually cause kickbacks.


Having read the regulations, I can see what Makita were saying about doing away with the riving knife in order to improve the blade guard (making it solid with no slit in it). I am not saying that they are right, just that I can see their point.

At work when I have to carry out hazard analysis (e.g. for FMEA or PUWER assessment of equipment I am designing), we assign hazards a category for probability of occurring (Very Low, Low, Medium, High and Very High) and then a category for consequence. We then put them in a matrix which shows the level of hazard. If the level of hazard is medium or high, then we have to do something about it. The hazard level can then be reduced by either reducing the chance of it happening, or by reducing the consequence if it does happen.

It seems to me that having a riving knife reduces the hazard by reducing the probability, whereas the saws without the knife presumably are reducing the hazard by trying to reduce the consequence when an accident does happen.

I did ask a safety consultant if it was better to reduce the probability or consequence (in general, not just for circular saws), and he thought it was better to reduce consequence. 

Not that I am saying I know which is best in terms of saws though.


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## Eric The Viking (8 Jul 2014)

Thanks for all the dogged hard work. It's been really interesting, this thread.


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## GLFaria (8 Jul 2014)

Hugo_W, thank you very much for all this information.
You have been very thorough in your research and very detailed in your report. Very interesting.


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## nanscombe (8 Jul 2014)

I use neither circular not table saws but ...

On a table saw, the heavy saw is not likely to move so if the blade is pinched by the wood it's more likely to throw a piece of wood back at you instead so a riving knife would help in avoiding the problem.

With a circular saw the wood is likely to be clamped down so if the blade binds the entire saw, with still spinning blade would likely be pushed towards you. Perhaps the thinking is that it is safer to get the guard around the spinning blade as quickly as possible.


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## morfa (10 Jul 2014)

I have a Scheppach CL55 Plunge/Track saw and this has a riving knife. When you engage the motor and push down, it just pops out along with the blade. It's a really nice saw actually. Quite a bit cheaper than the versions you're looking at, but for my DIY use it's been great. Not sure how well it'd stand up to daily use.


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (10 Jul 2014)

Thanks, I don't mind doing the research, unfortunately though I don't think I am an experienced enough wood worker to know if I should believe it or not, hence why I wanted to ask everyone on here.

Now all I need to do is decide on which saw to get! Although I have had plenty of good suggestions.

I think I am going to aim to get a tracksaw, and a cheap(ish) large circular saw (possibly 2nd hand).

I think I have just about convinced myself by reading the regulations and hearing from the manufacturers that I could maybe do without the riving knife on the track saw now and therefore I am probably going to have to make a hard decision between the Makita SP6000 (£300 with 2 rails, joiners and systainer) or the TS55 (£315 with 1 rail and systainer), but that comes down to if I can either justify the cost of the extra rail + joiners for the festool, or if I could make do with 1 rail or not for now. The Dewalt is also a possibility, but at the moment it seems to work out as expensive as the Festool.


morfa":2wvdd41u said:


> I have a Scheppach CL55 Plunge/Track saw and this has a riving knife.


The Scheppach was tempting at that price to be honest and I am sure it is a great saw, but I had to disregard it in my buying decision because it doesn't seem to be compatible with festool/makita style rails, and I will probably want to use other tools with the rails in the future. Glad the Scheppach is working well for you though.

As for the other circular "standard" circular saw, that will depend on what I see come up for sale, but I was thinking something with a 235mm blade. Still don't think I would be comfortable about not having a riving knife on something this size though.



nanscombe":2wvdd41u said:


> Perhaps the thinking is that it is safer to get the guard around the spinning blade as quickly as possible.



I think you are probably right, it does have some logic to it.

I do want to make clear though that I think all the reasons and regulations discussed above apply only to hand held circular saws (and plunge saws). 
Furthermore, it is important to note that even if it does turn out to be true that saws *designed* without riving knives (to the new regulations) are as safe as saws with the riving knife, then this would only apply to saws actually *designed* from the start not to have a riving knife, and does not apply to saws which were designed with the knife but which has had the knife removed by the operator. So in summary;

If a saw was *designed* with a riving knife, then it is important not to remove the knife as it is designed to rely on the knife
If a saw was *designed* not have the capability to have a riving knife fitted, then make sure it was designed to comply with EN 60745-2-5:2010. If it does comply with this standard, then depending on if you believe the reasons given by the manufacturers/regulations it *may* be as safe to use as a saw with a riving knife.

Sorry for the really long posts, but I thought that the information might be useful to someone else in the future too.


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## morfa (10 Jul 2014)

Hugo_Wolfwhistle":sgb3dz6t said:


> morfa":sgb3dz6t said:
> 
> 
> > I have a Scheppach CL55 Plunge/Track saw and this has a riving knife.
> ...



It's a great thread. Really useful. Yes, you're totally right, the scheppach rails don't work with other systems. Pity.

Lots of folk say good things about American 'worm drive' circular saws if you're looking for a second saw. Not sure if they'll have riving guards on them however.


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## Mark A (10 Jul 2014)

morfa":3h8knx5z said:


> Lots of folk say good things about American 'worm drive' circular saws if you're looking for a second saw. Not sure if they'll have riving guards on them however.



I'm a proud owner of a nice old Skil HD77 wormdrive and can safely say it's the best non plunge-style saw I've ever used. Unfortunately they aren't readily available in this country so unless Mr. Hugo is willing to import one from the States I'd advise he obtains a conventional saw from the UK.

Although I appreciate the argument in favour of riving knives, every saw I've owned which has come with one as standard has been bent or so badly fitted it fouls in the kerf. No matter how I shimmed the knife it still wouldn't work correctly, so I'd end up removing it and using the saw without. Wormdrives don't have riving knives, which enables the guard to be much more robust. Personally I prefer an effective guard to a useless piece of stamped metal which inevitable finds itself in the bin.


I would never suggest anyone attempts this because it's stupid, but out of curiosity I purposely tried to coax my wormdrive to kickback today. I should add here that I was braced for the kickback if it occurred so it wouldn't have amounted to anything, unlike the typical situation which takes the user completely unawares, resulting in potentially serious injury as he's not ready for the sudden backwards force.

I canted the blade approx. 20 degrees off vertical and proceeded to rip along a a length of 3x2 redwood with the saw set to max. depth of cut, zigzagging slightly as I went. Nothing happened; the blade kept spinning despite the lateral forces applied to it. With the saw still in the timber I adjusted the bevel to maybe 18 or 19 degrees, and then I screwed the kerf closed behind the blade which simulated a warped piece of wood. I proceeded to start the saw and it re-cut the kerf with no problems. Then with the blade still spinning I slowly pulled the saw backwards (in effect I was climb-cutting, which is not advised) and it happily sliced through the timber.

Perhaps I was unlucky and couldn't achieve kickback despite my best efforts, or maybe the wormdrive's considerable torque prevented the blade from becoming seized in the timber; either way as long as the saw user is aware of how kickback occurs and is prepared for it I don't see it being much of an issue. This is assuming he has sure footing, the work piece is secured and he's not attempting a riskier operation like plunge cutting. 


Mark

P.S. Just a quick tip... If you notice the kerf has started to close behind the blade then insert a 3mm plastic packer. The grippy texture of the shim prevents it from falling out accidentally.


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## Eric The Viking (11 Jul 2014)

I like my Makita, but in the choice with a TS55, don't put too much store by the Makita kit having a second rail.

Good:
- the Makita kit comes with a good carry bag for rails and clamps (Festool clamps are actually cheaper: they fit).
- you can tackle 8ft boards (just about),
- 1.4m rails are easier to carry around and store than a 3m one (and cheaper!).
Bad:
- the joining system, which Festool also uses*, is really rubbish. It is quite unnecessarily hard to get the two aligned, and the grub screws make rings in the soft aluminium, making subsequent alignments even harder.
- even when they are aligned, any bend in the rails (woefully easy to do, incidentally), means the saw bumps over the joint, or simply jams, and the joint also scrapes the sole plate of the saw, increasing wear.

I am seriously considering a 3m rail as a consequence, even though it is difficult to store (but oddly, it will fit in my car!). D+M Tools sell it, and it's a lot cheaper than the Festool one.

So given the joiner system is pretty poor, the price difference to the TS55 is negligible. You can run Festool saws on Makita rails and vice versa, but many of the handy Festool accessories, in particular the distance stops, which look really good, don't fit Makita rails. The Makita anti-tip feature (which needs both their saw and their rails), isn't on the TS55 though.

When I bought mine the Makita price difference was substantial. That's no longer true. 

I like my Makita (and it's made in the UK!), but, if I was buying again now, I'd get a TS55 kit and a 3m Makita rail.

E.

*It might be OK if the manufacturing tolerances of the joiner bars were tighter. The Festool bars might be better made, which would overcome many of the issues. Next time I'm in Axminster on a quiet morning, I'll ask them to show me both, as they stock both sets. Using Festool joiners with my existing Makita rails _might_ be a way forward, for me, but presently untested.


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (11 Jul 2014)

morfa":1myrw9hg said:


> Lots of folk say good things about American 'worm drive' circular saws if you're looking for a second saw. Not sure if they'll have riving guards on them however.


Yeah, I had seen those being talked about on some of the American forums, but never seen one here. People seem to love them over there. Is the benefit of them just their lower speed/higher torque? I know Hilti did a Hypoid saw available here a few years ago (I think it even had a plunge action to it, albeit the pivot was at the front like a normal circular saw and the plunge was not against a spring). I am not sure what the exact difference between hypoid and worm drives is, but they seem similar. That saw gets rave reviews from the Eureka Zone guys too, but Hilti don't make it anymore.



Mark A":1myrw9hg said:


> Although I appreciate the argument in favour of riving knives, every saw I've owned which has come with one as standard has been bent or so badly fitted it fouls in the kerf. No matter how I shimmed the knife it still wouldn't work correctly, so I'd end up removing it and using the saw without. Wormdrives don't have riving knives, which enables the guard to be much more robust. Personally I prefer an effective guard to a useless piece of stamped metal which inevitable finds itself in the bin.



Thanks for the interesting perspective, so it would seem that you agree with the reasons the manufacturers and regulations give?



Mark A":1myrw9hg said:


> With the saw still in the timber I adjusted the bevel to maybe 18 or 19 degrees, and then I screwed the kerf closed behind the blade which simulated a warped piece of wood. I proceeded to start the saw and it re-cut the kerf with no problems.


Really interesting practical comparison too, especially the finding that the blade did just cut its self free on the restart. Also thanks for the tip on the plastic wedges.



Mark A":1myrw9hg said:


> Unfortunately they aren't readily available in this country so unless Mr. Hugo is willing to import one from the States I'd advise he obtains a conventional saw from the UK.


I would consider importing a worm drive from the states if they are as good as everyone says, but I thought that they wouldn't work with UK voltage and frequency? I have heard people suggest just using a UK 110V site transformer to power US tools, but my understanding of the UK 110V site system was that it isn't really 110V AC like the US grid system, it is actually 2 separate 55V AC lines and an earth which means that the UK 110V site system only ever has 110V when measured between the 2 "live" wires, but only ever 55V between one of the lives and ground. I think the US 110V system is just a single 110V AC live.
I could well be completely wrong on this though, but even so the frequency difference would surely mean that the US tool would run too slow here?



Eric The Viking":1myrw9hg said:


> I like my Makita, but in the choice with a TS55, don't put too much store by the Makita kit having a second rail.


Thanks for the pros and cons list Eric, really helpful to get feedback from an owner. Just to check I understand your post correctly, are you saying that you don't think the 2nd 1.4m rail with the Makita would be much use to me (because of alignment issues), therefore the TS55 with 1x 1.4m rail at £315 is going to be just as useful as the Makita with 2x 1.4m rails + connectors for £300, and therefore the saws are really comparable price?

If so, are you suggesting that I would be better to buy either of them with 1x 1.4m rail, and then also buy a 3m rail as well?



Eric The Viking":1myrw9hg said:


> I like my Makita (and it's made in the UK!), but, if I was buying again now, I'd get a TS55 kit and a 3m Makita rail.


I am interested to know why you suggest getting the festool saw but then get a 3m Makita rail? Are the Makita 3m rails substantially cheaper? You mentioned earlier that not all Festool accessories work with the Makita rail, so if I can find a 3m Festool rail for similar money to the 3m Makita, then should I get that instead?
What accessories don't work with the Makita rails?

Thanks for all your advice, really appreciate it.


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## dickm (11 Jul 2014)

The wheelwright in the village where I grew up had an original Black and Decker Ripsnorter some time in the late 50s/60s, which was worm drive. Amazingly, they still come up on the secondhand market occasionally but up here in NE Scotland, the term Ripsnorter is often used for any sort of hand held circular saw.
What I don't understand is why worm drive should be superior? Can the motor run at a higher speed, which may be beneficial for a brush motor, or is it the alignment of the motor relative to the blade? If it's the latter, then a hypoid, which also has the motor in line, but uses a crown wheel and pinion like the back axle of a rear wheel drive car, should also be "better".
Any engineers out there can enlighten?


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## Eric The Viking (12 Jul 2014)

Hugo_Wolfwhistle":2ulur520 said:


> Eric The Viking":2ulur520 said:
> 
> 
> > I like my Makita, but in the choice with a TS55, don't put too much store by the Makita kit having a second rail.
> ...


I think that's what I'd do if I was buying again. The basic kits had a big price difference when I bought mine AND Makita had two rails and a bag as standard. So because I was buying on a tight budget there was no contest.

Now Festool have changed their channel marketing strategy (he said, politely), and their dealers discount more than they used to. Given that, I would seriously consider having just a TS55 and a single rail, and buying a long rail when I had need.

Why the Makita long rail? Basically, price. Last time I looked, the Makita 3m rail was less than half the Festool price.

You can do more with the Festool rails in terms of fitting accessories etc. The Makita saws have an anti-tipover feature for use when you're sawing a bevel cut (and It does work well). The TS55 can't use that*, BUT all the twiddly stuff you can do with a Festool rail, you wouldn't want to do with a 3m rail anyway (such as plunge distance stops, mainly used for sink cutouts in kitchen worktops). 

I guess if you ever want to run a router on it then that's different, but otherwise, given both saws do the basic job well on both sets of rails, to me that's a no-brainer.

I get by when cutting 8ft boards lengthwise at the moment, but when you have to make a lot of repeat cuts (I was slicing up ply recently to fit through our small attic hatch to board it out), fiddling with a pair of guides is a right pain. If you're clumsy (and I am!) you risk bending either the guides or the joiner pieces, at which point it's expensively game over.

It wouldn't matter if you had Festool or Makita - once joined as a pair, they're a nuisance to move around together.



> if I can find a 3m Festool rail for similar money to the 3m Makita, then should I get that instead?
> What accessories don't work with the Makita rails?



I think I would, but I doubt Festool have halved the price. Go have a look in a Festool dealer: Axminster sell both incidentally, and (courtesy of a salesperson on a quiet Tuesday morning), I spent a happy half-hour playing with the Festool attachments to find out what fitted on which rails (the wife wasn't too happy, but she'd brought a novel in case, so I got away with it). 

I don't think Axminster sell the 3m Makita rail (they have always had a limited subset of Makita accessories for their power tools), but my local Makita agent offered it to me recently for about 120 quid and no shipping charge - can't be bad.

*Things that work the same on both:*
- the saws' basic functions - straight cuts and bevelled straight cuts, and plunging (without distance stops along the rail).
- the mitre gauges (they're identical I think. I have the Makita one and it's pretty rubbish)
- The clamping system to clamp work under the rail (the track underneath for the F-clamps is identical.
- Both saws can do 'backwards' scoring cuts at 2mm depth for cleanly cutting faced boards. 
*Things that don't work the same:*
- Anything that uses the Festool accessory T-track at the back of the rail. The Makita's isn't the same - it has a C shaped slot instead (for the anti-tipover thing), and the Festool distance stops, the accessory tracks at right angles, and anything like the router carrier probably won't fit on it. That said, the mitre gauge I think is the exception (see above - it's rubbish).

I'm making some bedroom wardrobes soon, probably in veneered MDF (if I do the carcases myself). I'll get the Makita 3m rail then, as otherwise doing a lot of 8ft cuts will simply be too awkward. It'll pay for itself quickly.

E.

*(guess you might mod it though, fairly easily)


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## Hugo_Wolfwhistle (15 Jul 2014)

dickm":2b2qi7xy said:


> What I don't understand is why worm drive should be superior? Can the motor run at a higher speed, which may be beneficial for a brush motor, or is it the alignment of the motor relative to the blade? If it's the latter, then a hypoid, which also has the motor in line, but uses a crown wheel and pinion like the back axle of a rear wheel drive car, should also be "better".
> Any engineers out there can enlighten?



I too would like to know why they are so highly regarded. The only advantages I could see are that the torque is higher on a worm drive, and because they all seem to have the blade on the other side I could imagine that cut line visibility might be better. The flip side of the higher torque though is that the speed must be lower (assuming a fixed motor power) and I had thought higher blade speed was better for cuts (at least in wood). Therefore I don't know if it is better to have higher speed or higher torque?
If it is just the torque thing that is an advantage then surely saws like those ones from Evolution which have a high reduction gearbox should perform similarly unless there is something else going on?

Your suggestion of the alignment of the motor relative to the blade is interesting though, are you suggesting that there may be some sort of gyroscopic type effects/benefits by having the motor axis at 90 degrees to the blade axis? I could sort of imagine how this might make them a bit easier to handle for their size?



Eric The Viking":2b2qi7xy said:


> Given that, I would seriously consider having just a TS55 and a single rail, and buying a long rail when I had need.


Thanks for the advice Eric. I think that is the way I might go. The number of full 8ft rips that I will be doing (at least initially) will be fairly limited, so I suppose I could probably make do with just the 1 rail for now if needed. I could always buy another when/if I find I need it often. 
Unfortunately I suspect that I won't be able to consider getting the 3m rail (of any make) for the foreseeable future as I just don't think I have the space in the garage/workshop to store it easily. The garage is only 2.3m wide by about 4m long with a ceiling height of about 2.4m, so the only way to store the 3m rail would be horizontally, and then it would tend to be in the way of everything.
Therefore I think I am probably always going to have to make do with joining rails for the longer cuts. Is it really that bad if I take care and use a straight edge to line them up?

Knowing the space constraints would it change your recommendation of TS55 with 1 rail vs Makita with 2 for the same price?

In terms of accessories I would be looking at for it in the future, I was thinking of using a router on the rails (need to get a new router soon anyway) and also possibly the other "standard" circular saw (using an adapter). Also I was planning to build an MFT type bench that would work with the rails, and I had been looking at the mitre guages (although from your description, I shouldn't bother).
I doubt I will be considering Festool's routers (too expensive for the amount of routing I do), do you think Makita's router, jigsaw and 5703r guide rail adapters, or Hitachi's adapters would fit on the festool and Makita rails?

Also when considering the "standard" circular saw to compliment the track saw, do you think that electronic speed control (like on the Track saws, and some Bosch and Metabo standard saws) really matters much?
Bosch and Metabo both make a big deal of it, and so do the track saws, but other standard saws from other manufacturers don't seem to have it.

Cheers


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## Eric The Viking (15 Jul 2014)

Hugo_Wolfwhistle":mhcmn11k said:


> Knowing the space constraints would it change your recommendation of TS55 with 1 rail vs Makita with 2 for the same price?



Quite possibly. 

The issue is the nuisance value of using a pair for a succession of long cuts. The joined-together combination is fragile. Doing the occasional long cut is fine, but if you have twenty to make in a hurry, well you can't. You have to think about how you're going to move the rails carefully or disconnect-reconnect them each time (which means the grub screws wear the alignment slots more).

That said, the rail bag will quite readily hide in the back of a wardrobe, and yes. it does make them easier to carry around (but not bomb proof - if you drop the bag on a corner, it will, most likely, crumple one or both of the rails inside).

Only you can really decide what works for you.

On the other stuff I can't comment really.

E.

PS: The long rail could 'hide' anywhere there's enough space though: e.g. on top of the kitchen units (in a plastic bag), or in the attic, high up along the wall of your garage or even under a floor. As long as you can get to it when you need to. You might even drill ecxtra holes and screw it to something!


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## Sgian Dubh (15 Jul 2014)

dickm":3hmdki09 said:


> What I don't understand is why worm drive should be superior?


Not necessarily superior as I recall from my time living in the US, but right handed users also seemed to like the way they're balanced when used right handed ... the weight of the motor and the widest part of the base plate is, in most cases, over the piece being dimensioned. Slainte.


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