# Faulty Lie Nielsen chisel!!



## Anonymous (6 Oct 2006)

Hold the headlines!

I received this month's LN chisel a few days ago, a beautiful LN 3/8". 

Well, arrived home to find a parcel and so into the garage whilst still in work clothes natch  

Took it out of box, wiped drool off before it rusts and Alf becomes interested in it :lol: :wink: and flattened the 1000 grit waterstone ready for 10 seconds of chisel flattening before 6000 grit stone to mirror the back - this is all the other 6 needed.

So, 10 secs on the stone, look at back and it is only grey in middle. Odd, all others were grey all over by now. Mr confused :? 

So another few minutes on the 1000 grit and....

Still only grey in middle.

EH????? thinks I. Checked and it is 0.25mm convex. Convex, the worst one can get. Also the finish is pants, scores and scrathes from machining 
It appears that there was no 400 grit hand finish in factory for this work of art  

So, pretty unhappy but tenacious to the end, I spent another 20 minutes on my course diamond stone - it still ain't flat. Gave up :roll: 

The problemn is that I can't return it to Axminster as i have been rubbing it on a waterstone for 20 minutes.

I emailed LN.

2 days later, the reply is:


> I must first apologize for all the trouble with your chisel. I've spoken to Tom about your email and he ok'd me to ship you a new chisel at no charge and you can keep the original. I will have our shop manager double check your new chisel before it's shipped. You can expect your new chisel to arrive within 4-5 business days. Please let me know when you get the chisel and that everything is ok with it.




That's why I buy LN and LV, they give that kind of service. Perfect resolution


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## Philly (6 Oct 2006)

Excellent result-big thumbs up to L-N for such service.
Mind you, shouldn't of slipped through the net..... :lol: 
Cheers
Philly


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## Alf (6 Oct 2006)

Sheesh, Tony, you don't 'arf pick your subject lines. :shock: I'm sure the LN fan club will be demanding an edit in no time... :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## ByronBlack (6 Oct 2006)

Tony, this is what happens when buy you cheap! It's a false economy!!


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## Colin C (6 Oct 2006)

ByronBlack":l4rag2wz said:


> Tony, this is what happens when buy you cheap! It's a false economy!!



:tongue9: 8-[ :wink:


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## Anonymous (6 Oct 2006)

Tony":3575ahiu said:


> snip
> That's why I buy LN and LV, they give that kind of service. Perfect resolution



I think you will find many suppliers will replace faulty goods with no query e.g. Screwfix, B&Q and others.
You lot don't half grovel at the feet of lee&perrins and their ilk! They sell faulty goods, they replace them - well, big deal, so what?

cheers
Jacob


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## Anonymous (6 Oct 2006)

Alf":2y2uc6hb said:


> Sheesh, Tony, you don't 'arf pick your subject lines. :shock: I'm sure the LN fan club will be demanding an edit in no time... :roll: :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I just can't help it :lol:


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## Anonymous (6 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1a6noh0j said:


> Tony":1a6noh0j said:
> 
> 
> > snip
> ...



I don't agree Jacob. 
Once used, they often refuse to refund or exchange. How many tool suppliers would agree that a chisel that is not perfectly flat is faulty???? Not many as I have only ever found LN chisels to be flat from the factory.

Don't forget, the chisel would still cut wood and if I could be bothered to spend another hour on the stones, it would be flat too.


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## Paul Chapman (6 Oct 2006)

Tony":261mb4cp said:


> if I could be bothered to spend another hour on the stones, it would be flat too.



If you're throwing it away, I'd happily spend an hour flattening it :wink: :lol: 

Paul


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## Colin C (6 Oct 2006)

Paul Chapman":190os3gd said:


> Tony":190os3gd said:
> 
> 
> > if I could be bothered to spend another hour on the stones, it would be flat too.
> ...



Dame to slow :roll: :wink:


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## bugbear (6 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":ca006v0p said:


> Tony":ca006v0p said:
> 
> 
> > snip
> ...








:lol: 
BugBear


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## Anonymous (6 Oct 2006)

Tony":15s6vo7m said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":15s6vo7m said:
> 
> 
> > Tony":15s6vo7m said:
> ...



I buy a lot by mail order. I've often had replacements from Screwfix and many others with absolutely no problem. Small items like chisels, especially if used, they don't want returning as they bin them anyway. Larger items they may want. Recently returned a faulty elec. shower to B&Q and they swapped it immediately with no queries - I didn't even have the receipt.
Believe me it's quite normal. Had a water heater replaced twice by TLC who agreed a full refund when the 3rd one failed (18 months down the line).
Lea & Perrins deserve no extra stars for being just like everybody else!

cheers
Jacob
PS and all the chisels I've ever bought new (cheapo stuff mostly) have been flat - I don't know what all the fuss is about.


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## andrewm (6 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":twvibumx said:


> Lea & Perrins deserve no extra stars for being just like everybody else!



But would Screwfix be quite so accommodating if you were phoning up to complain from NEW England?


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## Colin C (6 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale

As we all know that you think about some of the tools people get on hear :roll: , why do you voice it at every chance you get.
This just a question and I am not having a go:wink:

Not all companys do this sort of service ( yes a lot of the big ones will e.g B&Q ) but there are also some that will try to fob people off with what they can get away with. 

From what I know of LN ( I would not be buying any of his planes as like you I could not aford to buy one and I am happy with my old low knob stanleys),
he does make some very good tools and as it has been shown on hear that he will change a tool if it does not work as it should, even if it was bought 2 plus years ago( this happened to some one in Australia).

I cant see B&Q doing that :shock: 
Ps I hope to hear more of your good advice :wink:


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## Alf (6 Oct 2006)

Colin C":3q6exbkc said:


> As we all know that you think about some of the tools people get on hear :roll: , why do you voice it at every chance you get.
> This just a question and I am not having a go:wink:


Ah Colin, it's one of Jacob's endearing qualities - like his steadfast dismissal of the usefulness of the tailed router. The key thing is to take _absolutely no notice at all_ - unless you're in the mood for an argument, in which case go for it. It's like have John Cleese on tap. 
No, it isn't. 
Yes, it is. 
etc... :wink: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (6 Oct 2006)

Personally LN tools are not my cup of tea. I have nothing against them as a company or whatever but maybe jacob has a valid point.
All the retailers try to do a good pr when it comes to returns etc. LN are just trying to damage limit their top excellence reputation acting as they did- and fair enough if thats ther policy. But when you pay what you do for their stuff, you would expect ecxellence every single time shouldnt you? I thought that was their big PR image? If they let one faulty chisel through, whose to say another wasnt let through with different less obvious manufactruing fauilts? And anyway B&Q, screwfix etc dont reckon to sell top of the range tools to dicserning woodworkers around the world but LN do.


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## Roger (6 Oct 2006)

Wrong title – wrong thread!!

Is it that important? Is it that necessary? I/We could all go on about great Customer Service or bad Customer Service in particular instances …….. so what? It happens every day with different Companies and different products.

It’s not the particular tool; it’s not the particular Company; it’s the quality control on a bad day! If they replace it – that’s very nice, but expected.

I have the North American attitude to perceived bad service. I complain in escalating degrees. I have never found a Company in the U.K. that hasn’t responded in kind. North American is just 'a little' further away. They tend to respond according to their market, as does everyone.

I’ve found States side Companies just as good or as bad as their U.K. counterparts. It’s all in a days work - both for them and for us and thankfully quite rare these days. Something out of that range WOULD be the subject for a post.


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## Colin C (6 Oct 2006)

Alf":3l7pem63 said:


> It's like have John Cleese on tap.
> No, it isn't.
> Yes, it is.
> etc... :wink: :lol:
> ...



  [-X 8-[


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## Anonymous (7 Oct 2006)

Ploget":md8zackn said:


> Wrong title – wrong thread!!
> 
> Is it that important? Is it that necessary? I/We could all go on about great Customer Service or bad Customer Service in particular instances …….. so what? It happens every day with different Companies and different products.
> 
> ...


Exactly - a company replacing faulty goods is not remarkable.


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## David C (7 Oct 2006)

A couple of days ago, I had an interesting encounter with a not dissimilar poster on Fine woodworking Knots hand tools.

a No 5 Stanley issue.

I believe some others have also encountered this person........

It is just possible that I am finally learning that life is too short to pursue and challenge some of the more bizarre views expressed.

I used to complain to stanley and record, with monotonous regularity, over a 20 year period, and all that happened was that more costcutting nastiness crept in as the years went by. Finally we was rescued by firms who wanted to do the job right, albeit at significantly greater cost.

What a tragedy, when you look back at the quality of the sweetheart era!

David C


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## Alf (7 Oct 2006)

mr spanton":35tbfw8k said:


> But when you pay what you do for their stuff, you would expect ecxellence every single time shouldnt you? I thought that was their big PR image? If they let one faulty chisel through, whose to say another wasnt let through with different less obvious manufactruing fauilts?


Stuff happens - it's how well you deal with the problem that makes the difference. Perhaps we get too blasé about these things? Frankly some of the stuff I've read about on this forum concerning the response to problems by equivalent British makers (I'm sorry to say) makes the likes of LN and LV pretty damn good. Screwfix, B&Q et al are substantially larger concerns, with lower value goods - they take considerably less of a hit taking back a dodgy £5 chisel, and providing customer service is proportionally less cost too I imagine.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (7 Oct 2006)

Alf":2pqte984 said:


> mr spanton":2pqte984 said:
> 
> 
> > But when you pay what you do for their stuff, you would expect ecxellence every single time shouldnt you? I thought that was their big PR image? If they let one faulty chisel through, whose to say another wasnt let through with different less obvious manufactruing fauilts?
> ...



What I'm saying is that the fact that LN etc will replace faulty goods shouldn't get everybody over-excited and running about like groupies at a pop concert. It's a bit hysterical the LN LV lobby.

cheers
Jacob


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## Alf (7 Oct 2006)

Ah, so what you want to hear is _only the negative experiences_? Everything else is hysterical pop groupie-ness? Or does that only apply to positive comment about companies of which you personally don't approve? In which case could you furnish a list of the "in" and "out" companies, please. I think we need to know where we stand here, Jacob - so as not to offend thine eye in future... :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Ian Dalziel (7 Oct 2006)

I found it a strange title for a post that is actually praising a manufacturer. 
LN, LV’s…Stanley..record…all names mentioned in the replies are all manufacturers….B&Q…Screwfix etc are middlemen with no particular loyalty to individual manufacturers, yet offer refunds….because it’s the law!!
Our laws don’t cover USA/Canada etc…but…the point that started the thread….the purchaser was offered a refund, without a quibble. 
That’s decent and fair in my book and yours. The argument stops there…the end goal was achieved with the minimum fuss.

I do like to purchase nice tools, I was always told ‘get the best you can afford’ ...I no longer see Stanley , Record as being the best. Finding old tools can be too much of a lottery. 
Both LN and LV as examples started as one man business’s, taking risks….slowly and steadily building a business with a decent reputation….and now employing many people, these people then become part of the family for that company to exist. 
These companies have got a worldwide reputation for selling ‘Quality’. That in itself is an outstanding achievement. This is why people buy their goods. TLN and Rob Lee and their employees….put huge efforts into planning….designing….through to final manufacturing to get things that they determine are high quality goods.
People get up and speak about their stuff because its good….. Nuff said.

What do screwfix do…not so long ago….pay everyone off….up sticks and move on.
I don’t buy from them because I find their stuff pretty poor. 

Tony made a valid point and so did Mr Grimsdale…..but if you are trying to compare something….. compare an apple with an equivelant apple. Mr G IMO didnt
B&Q & Screwfix aren’t based abroad they are just complying with UK Laws as do every other UK company ….Do you think if it wasn’t law this would happen!!
Thought not

My tuppence……I really need to get off my orangebox and light up!!

I


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## Anonymous (7 Oct 2006)

David C":3tvs2pnh said:


> What a tragedy, when you look back at the quality of the sweetheart era!



Or when you look back to the diston days, and how disapointing there last producton saws were. Once I sharpened one of the alominum handled rosewood infill ones by then their steel was inconistent rubbish and the people who owned the company couldnt care less as power saws were the furture??
Henry diston was a fantastic business man, inventor, inovator, employer, philanthropist, he cared passionately about saws being the best they could be. They are just as good now if you are lucky enough to find a ggood one. Plus he was English not American :wink:


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## Anonymous (7 Oct 2006)

Alf":8wol6vfd said:


> Ah, so what you want to hear is _only the negative experiences_? snip
> Cheers, Alf


We had both here: first they supplied faulty chisel, no surprise there, could happen to anybody, they don't have supernatural powers (though you might think they have judging from the worshipful attitudes) second they replaced it; no surprise there either - so would 99.9% of other companies. So why the excited response unless it's some sort of groupie hysteria? 

cheers
Jacob
PS am not critiscising their tools here, I'm sure they are excellent (except for the mortice chisels which are obviously a mistake!)


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## Philly (7 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":25txzdpf said:


> PS am not critiscising their tools here, I'm sure they are excellent


So you are just critical of folk who buy decent tools?? Bit of "green-eyed monster" going on here-or do you actually have a point?
Philly-_who is hoping you actually DO have a point to make_ :?


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## MikeW (7 Oct 2006)

Hmm. Been smart to stay out of this *hadn't* I?

I have had excellent customer service from both sides of the pond. 

I have had terrible customer service from only my side of the pond. But that seems like it is as it should be. Most of my daily dollars are spent here. More "exposure," more spending at a greater variety of places "naturally" increases the odds that this will happen.

For me, in this country, LN or LV stand out _not because they do as they ought to_ [my own value-based judgement there] as regards customer satisfaction. They stand out because they return goods with a truly apologetic attitude. I don't mean they simply say they are sorry. I mean they are near embarrased such goods slipped away--in the case of faulty goods. As for LV, if you receive a green-colored widget and decided the color green wasn't right, they are still as cheerful and will return it.

It starts with the respective owners. Tom and Rob. They both are my roll models, really. They want their products to be the best in their categories. They work hard to make it so. That desire permeates the companies.

While I have returned goods to many, many companies over the years, I have encountered darn few who go out of their way to make me feel I did the right thing to send it back.

Ok. I'll go back to my corner now :lol: 

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (7 Oct 2006)

Ian Dalziel":1m9g9mct said:


> I found it a strange title for a post that is actually praising a manufacturer.


There you go, Tony - told ya... :wink: 

There seems to be a high point of activity from a few tedious nerks currently polluting the woodworking fora who can't make their point without disparaging those who disagree with them. They're rude, they're boring and they're just making people feel uncomfortable. One, we'll call him "BS", actually knows some useful stuff, but the benefit of that is being hopelessly swamped by his crass attitude.

Jacob, you know valuable stuff. Don't turn into "BS". You can make your point about customer service without resorting to the "groupie" drivel. It's unnecessary and makes you sound like a bit of a jealous twit. Please don't.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (7 Oct 2006)

and this thread is why I avoid hand tool debates, see you in another section!!


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## MikeW (7 Oct 2006)

senior":3ksdvzay said:


> and this thread is why I avoid hand tool debates, see you in another section!!


Ah, for me it isn't the thread, nor its placement as to which forum it is in. Nay-sayers pop up in every type of forum, regardless of whether it is a powered tool or a hand tool. This isn't even a debate on which widget is better--powered or non-powered really.

I look at the forums like pubs all lined up down a street. Walking into one at any given moment and visiting the various conversations at a given table. Sometimes fun conversation. Sometimes intellectual. But sometimes I am able to throw a helpful comment into a conversation.

There are many conversations I avoid. Some I feel I cannot. Some when BS is being spread, well, I sometimes down another brew and wade in.

But the vast majority of the conversations I enjoy in full is when someone doesn't proclaim others are an silly person. Most are simply someone wanting to share or ask advice. I try to center on those and skip the rest. Just not always successful. Just like going to my favorite pub.

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (7 Oct 2006)

Ah, there may be some mistake - BS isn't being used as the acronym for some form of fertiliser. It's not a phrase I use in full, never mind as an acronym. Read "Bob" rather than "BS" if it helps.

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (7 Oct 2006)

Oh Alf, I figured it was my favorite nemesis. Just couldn't help equating him to fertilizer. He is a knowledgable person, if not in his narrow-minded sorta way. :lol: 

Take care, Mike


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## Anonymous (7 Oct 2006)

OK I get the message the names LN and LV shall not be taken in vain - this is holy ground. Are there other areas of similar sensibility in woodworking? 
I suppose some people need more certainty than just death and taxes!
Yes it is wonderful and utterly marvelous that LN replaced a faulty chisel.

cheers
Jacob


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## Colin C (7 Oct 2006)

Ian Dalziel":1eogkizc said:


> My tuppence……I really need to get off my orangebox and light up!!
> 
> I



Ian 
Dont do it :shock: :wink:


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## engineer one (8 Oct 2006)

jacob, again as others have said you are actually missing the point,
imho!

LV and LN are not sacred turf, they do however seem to be companies that actually care about producing items for a reason, not to milk the 
poor old customer. as such their approach to customer care is something
worthy of note.

as has been pointed out before in this post, the reason B&Q, screwfix et
al exchange products is because it is part of the uk consumer protection legislation. it was changed some years ago so that the poor old retailer had to take the blame for flaws in the manufacturing process. technically now, if you buy something as a customer, not a trader, the shop is obliged
to replace if faulty, and then it is the business of the shop to negotiate with the manufacturer/wholesaler/importer over whose final responsibility it all is. however, if you are a trader, or buy from for instance makro,and i would guess cosco, you are not entitled to the same protection.

the whole relevance of this thread is that one specific manufacturer cares enough about their reputation in the wider world to offer a free replacement, without asking for the faulty goods to be returned.
this implies an understanding that the customers who take the trouble to complain sanely, politely and properly are likely to tell their friends, 
and want to come back to buy.

in my recent experience of some of the older "so called established"
brand names, the management consultants and accountants have
taken the view that the customer is a mug, and can be fobbed off 
with substandard products because there are enough new ones
to come along and buy the c**p.

when i was trained in the 60's and 70's jacob people like you were
called "journeymen" this was not an insult but an appreciation of
the skills they had and the ability to undertake specific kinds of 
work. we had an apprentice scheme which allowed us to buy tools
at so much per week. at that time the best brands were not
made by vast multi nationals that moved production to increase
production profits without worrying about quality control. 

what many people like you have failed to notice, or understand is 
that for many manufacturers it is cheaper to discard waste products 
than check it before it leaves the factory. so the so called quality marks
are not actually worth the cost of the stamp to imprint them on 
the tools, because there is little or no quality control in the old fashioned
way any more, that would be too expensive.

i believe jacob that you are lucky, and my impression is that you 
have most of your tools from your earlier days, so cannot see the 
need to buy modern if they still work. maybe by now your chisels 
have worn out, maybe not, but i guess you will think twice about
spending the extra pennies to be sure that the steel is proper 
quality and the chisel does what it was designed to do. 

you wonder about the flattening backs done by so many people these
days. i can tell you that after my father died, along with some of his 
stone mason, letter cutting tools, were some woodworking tools
a back saw, and about 4 chisels. i was surprised to notice that
all the backs had been flattened, and polished, and he must have done
that over 40 years ago, without the benefit of DC's input.

i can state categorically as someone who has sharpened a number
of recently purchased, stanley and marples and record products 
for other people the standard of steel finishing is appalling, and
the edge retention is rubbish. these are for people who abuse their
tools, but they do not expect chisels to be re-sharpened every 
month, which is what has been happening. older and different brands
do in these conditions last longer.

except as a customer, and having been lucky enough to talk with 
rob lee, and tln, as well as DC, i find it refreshing to talk with 
the bosses of companies and discover that at the top level they
are interested in delivering proper products to the customer
at a "reasonable" price. 

we each have our understanding of reasonable, and to me the 
value of not having to fettle a plane is worth the extra, because 
i value fettling time more highly than production time, since
it eats into my fun time.

like others here, i believe you have a lot to offer in terms of
certain kinds of information, but your continual bashing of
certain brands because you don't want to buy them is not productive.

in a world dominated by big brands that seem to care little for the 
customer, or indeed the world in which we live, so called niche 
manufacturers are valuable and their customer service is based on
the belief that they need happy customers to progress and grow.

rant over. i came on this forum to learn, and improve certain 
latent skills, and i hope i have and am doing that, but i do worry that 
the site becomes too american so that you cannot moan about something
without creating a "fire storm" of people who can't or won't take criticism
of either a brand or type of information. vide the recent posting in america about bill pentz and his work. :twisted: 

finally mike w, now i am really confused, first you are out stealing
beer and pizzas from the bears in the woods, and then you stop
the chickens working, and now you are in pubs listening to all these
conversations. :? 

what i want to know is where in the hell, do you find the time to
make the b****y saws you keep showing us :lol: :lol: :lol: 

i look forward to some weeks in purdah :roll: 

paul :wink:


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## MikeW (8 Oct 2006)

engineer one":7jeyx2hs said:


> ...finally mike w, now i am really confused, first you are out stealing beer and pizzas from the bears in the woods, and then you stop the chickens working, and now you are in pubs listening to all these conversations. :?
> 
> what i want to know is where in the hell, do you find the time to
> make the b****y saws you keep showing us


Now that's funny!

In answer to your question...that's why I had children :lol: 
That, or that's why I work from about 6 to 9 am in the shop. Spend most of the day answering phone calls, emails and the like. Handle issues and give direction to the boys. Then pick back up and work in the shop from about 8 pm until midnight or so.

So maybe the sleep deprivation has encouraged hallucinations of chickens and bears and the conversations are only in my mind...

Take care, Mike


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## engineer one (8 Oct 2006)

so mike do the kids know they were created so that dad could go off on this merrygo round of madness yet still get all the credit for the work :twisted: :lol: 

or do they think that someday their plight will get recognised, and they
can return to the coop? :lol: :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (9 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1h1yga28 said:


> Alf":1h1yga28 said:
> 
> 
> > mr spanton":1h1yga28 said:
> ...



I am not an over-excited groupy, just happy with the excellent service I have received which is better than I have received from many (tool and other) companies over the years.

If I can be bothered to flatten the offending chisel, then I get 2 for 1. Can't see that happening though :lol:

Jacob, you don't see the point of LN or LV tools. Well, I used my fettled Record #4 at the weekend and then my LN LA smoother (same size more-or-less) - I clearly see the point.


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## Anonymous (9 Oct 2006)

Tony":30g80s4p said:


> > What I'm saying is that the fact that LN etc will replace faulty goods shouldn't get everybody over-excited and running about like groupies at a pop concert. It's a bit hysterical the LN LV lobby.
> >
> > cheers
> > Jacob
> ...


Glad you are getting good service - might have been quicker however if you'd gone direct to Axminster!
Part of the reason I am a bit critical of LN and LV is that they have such a strong lobby on this group - it's a question of balance. 
I don't get paid by either company or anybody else for that matter, not even a free chisel. I get tired of the often repeated message that only LN, LV are any good and everything else is rubbish. It's not true and a lot of people esp newbies are being misled. 
They make excellent tools undoubtedly (except for the mortice chisels!) but they also are experts at marketing. 

cheers
Jacob
PS I just noticed that LN do a dowel plate - an excellent bit of kit IMO, pity theirs is so expensive - I got mine made up by a local engineer for £15. The LN advice on how to use it is also very wide of the mark but a good try nevertheless. There - you see, I'm not all negative!


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## Taffy Turner (9 Oct 2006)

At the risk of poking my nose in here, I think that Jacob does have a point, but I would question his way of getting it across!

Gary


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## mr (9 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":5she90u6 said:


> I get tired of the often repeated message that only LN, LV are any good and everything else is rubbish. It's not true and a lot of people esp newbies are being misled.


You have a point, though I think it's worth pointing out that, in my own case, I was unable to fettle cheaper brands and even sharpen properly until I had used an LV plane mainly because I had no idea of what an acceptable standard was. Without a reference point I found it difficult to know whether I had set tools up to their maximum capability or sharpness. Trial and error or a course might well have been a shortcut but using a higher end tool that was "preprepared" to some extent was a great help. 
Cheers Mike


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## Anonymous (9 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":v8s6poyq said:


> I get tired of the often repeated message that only LN, LV are any good and everything else is rubbish. It's not true and a lot of people esp newbies are being misled.



That is a point I strongly agree with and have made myself on here many times.

LN/LV make better quality ttools, but that does not make the rest rubbish or inadequate in some way


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## Ian Dalziel (9 Oct 2006)

Jacob,
Newbies ask for opinions here on certain tools....whats best to buy for the money…they get answers more often than not ‘buy LN or LV’ because they work very well out the box. Others don’t…they need a fair bit of work to get them to function the way a plane should work….. Some newbies don’t have the yet aquired skills to make them functional…this comes with eventual experience.
hence all the recommendations.

I’ve just spent £229 on the LN mortice chisel set……you’ve repeatedly said in this post they are bad….you now have me concerned. I take it with your set you are really disappointed with them….in a case like yours LN would probably replace them if you are not entirely satisfied.
Just wondering what your concerns are…..are they not flat….or suitable for the job…have you broken a handle, please enlighten me as I am looking forward to using mine and I want to know if mine have the same problems as yours.

I


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## engineer one (9 Oct 2006)

to be pedantic, if something is judged to be of better quality,
by definition, it implies the rest is of a lesser standard.

from the beginning one is told to buy the best one can afford.
as others have said here, if you do not know how a good tool should
be set up, then there is a benefit to buying at least one of the best
of each type, to see how they are made, and how they are set up.

the facts are that many of the international name brands no longer
produce the tools that they were famous for, and their production
values have slipped to allow them to make more money, not
provide the best tool for the money.

what is important is not just the quality of the blades, or the fact that
almost none of the modern cast iron mass produced planes have their
plane bodies "seasoned" for anything like the same time as in the
past. the time between casting and machining is no longer long 
enough to let the castings settle properly before they are machined.
what is different is that the adjusters and ancilliaries are made of
cheap pressings which cannot properly be adjusted, and do not
hold their positions properly.

anyone buying a none lv/ln, or indeed clifton will find that out of the 
box it is a pita to use, whereas in general, the three above can work
out of the box, or at the most with a fine honing to remove any
wire edge. this quality costs more, but if you are prepared, and
able to fettle other products then they eventually become 
reasonable. the question is how many newer woodworkers have
actually been shown the skills required to fettle?

it is very easy to read about sharpening, but actually doing it is
easier if you are shown it personally. i am sure that dc's videos help
too, if they are anything like his personal approach on a one to one 
basis.

so the real reason so many people like ln/lv and clifton is that
the preparitary work is basically done, and they can start out
of the box.

we are talking about management philosphies. major manufacturers
are only concerned with profit margins based on squeezing the most
out of cash cows, whilst the others want to produce better products
and hope they will find exacting customers who believe as they do.
once they do that they are then able to make sensible profits.

anyway that's my take, but then i am awkward :twisted: :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (9 Oct 2006)

Ian Dalziel":27om9j52 said:


> Jacob,
> Newbies ask for opinions here on certain tools....whats best to buy for the money…they get answers more often than not ‘buy LN or LV’ because they work very well out the box. Others don’t…they need a fair bit of work to get them to function the way a plane should work….. Some newbies don’t have the yet aquired skills to make them functional…this comes with eventual experience.
> hence all the recommendations.
> 
> ...


I'm sure they'll be OK but the trad 'pig sticker' pattern is far superior. See earlier thread somewhere.

cheers
Jacob


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## Anonymous (9 Oct 2006)

Tony":3fzo2q3u said:


> snip
> Jacob, you don't see the point of LN or LV tools. Well, I used my fettled Record #4 at the weekend and then my LN LA smoother (same size more-or-less) - I clearly see the point.


Well I've never knowingly fettled any of my hand tools ancient or modern - I sharpen them, use them, occasionally apply candle wax, er, thats it. The flat back thing comes about inevitably as the blade is turned over flat to take off the honing wire edge burr wossit called.

cheers
Jacob


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## Ian Dalziel (9 Oct 2006)

> I'm sure they'll be OK but the trad 'pig sticker' pattern is far superior. See earlier thread somewhere.



possibly so......but at the very least try them before you publicly condemn them to being useless. 

I


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## Jake (9 Oct 2006)

It's a design issue, not a manufacturing issue, so I don't see why use or ownership is necessary before one is allowed to have an opinion on the subject.


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## CONGER (9 Oct 2006)

Hard to hold back here... the only civil thing I can say is 'there's one in every bunch'.

I am surprised that this community has produced such a thread; it is beginning to match the disgusting, almost racist, witch hunts offered on WC... remember Derek?

I am closing this thread for myself under the motto 'there are none so blind as those who will not see'.

Work safe... -gerard-


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## ike (9 Oct 2006)

> I am surprised that this community has produced such a thread; it is beginning to match the disgusting, almost racist, witch hunts offered on WC



Wow! as opinions have gone so far in this thread, that's the strongest so far. (and IMO unwarranted)! I've followed this thread with interest. Argument and counter argument, each to their own view whether expressed eloquently or bluntly. Jacob has said (simply) what he believes as has Tony. I haven't read any bad language, or indeed anything that could be taken as offensive. 

cheers,

Ike


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## Anonymous (9 Oct 2006)

Ian Dalziel":2xu9p6b9 said:


> > I'm sure they'll be OK but the trad 'pig sticker' pattern is far superior. See earlier thread somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have used pig stickers (old ones, no brand) extensively. Have also used modern pattern not unlike LN type (actually Marples). I'm just expressing a preference for a design. IME the first are much superior - the reasons why are expanded in an earlier thread if you search.
I just looked back through this thread and for having a different opinion I have been called; a troll, holder of bizarre views, green-eyed monster, tedious nerk, jealous twit, Nay-sayer, narrow-minded, racist, witch hunter!!!
Well, as for holy ground and hysterical groupies - Q.E.D.
I've been called worse (no surprise I hear you cry). My response is 2 fingers. I'm waving them now!
I recall that Ashley Isles makes proper pig sticker mortice chisels and I bet they are a lot cheaper than LN.
I claim my free chisel Ashley.
Don't Clifton have a representative on this group? Nobody speaks up for them much. Could be a job there.

cheers
Jacob


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## Alf (9 Oct 2006)

On a point of order, I'd like to mention I was asking you to _not_ become a tedious nerk. 



Mr_Grimsdale":lmzo87kc said:


> My response is 2 fingers. I'm waving them now!


Perhaps less finger waving and more stopping to think why, on a forum where name-calling is very much the exception, you've apparently drawn quite so much. For me, the last straw was Philly asking you to make your point _in italics_. Philly is, as a rule, so laid back as to be horizontal and this is the equivalent of me having a prolonged rant. When you start making him visibly irritated it's time to stop. The mild ones are always worst when they're riled... 8-[

Cheers, Alf


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## ike (9 Oct 2006)

Ike wrote:


> I haven't read any bad language, or indeed anything that could be taken as offensive.



Jacob wrote,



> I just looked back through this thread and for having a different opinion I have been called; a troll, holder of bizarre views, green-eyed monster, tedious nerk, jealous twit, Nay-sayer, narrow-minded, racist, witch hunter!!!



Well, you do have a point! I'll retract my statement. I'm surprised a moderator didn't see fit to wave the yellow card.

cheers,

Ike


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## David C (9 Oct 2006)

Steady on chaps!

Not quite as hot as WC yet but getting close.

I find the deliberate attempts to wind up other members by the use of infantile/childish sarcasm, highly questionable. 

Respect for others regardless of the oddity of their views, (if stated reasonably)?

David C


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## Anonymous (9 Oct 2006)

OK

*Mod hat on.*

I think all that has to be said has been said. 

Please don't force me to lock my own thread.


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## Mike.C (9 Oct 2006)

Maybe it's just me but I do not see the problem.

(1) LN, IMHO should get a pat on the back for dealing with the problem in such a positive manner.
Why? 
Well first of all they are quite within their rights to tell Tony to get on his bike and contact Axminster, because in UK law if he purchased the chisel from Axminster (he did didn't he?) his contract is with them and not with LN. All right we know that most companies will deal with the customer as a matter of good will, but they do not have too, especially as they are not bound by UK laws.

(2) Jacob is right a great deal of outer companies would replace the chisel, but the real fact is most of them including Axminster would very well have asked Tony to send the chisel back before they replaced it.

So it is my view that yes it is no surprise that LN replaced the chisel, but where they come out top is, not only did they replace it they also let him keep a chisel that with a bit of work will be every bit as good as the new
one.

Cheers

Mike

EDIT Sorry Tony I did not see your post.


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## Anonymous (9 Oct 2006)

Mike.C":sddj8erl said:


> from Axminster (he did didn't he?)
> .



He did indeed.



> EDIT Sorry Tony I did not see your post



no problem mike.


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## Mike.C (9 Oct 2006)

Cheers Tony.

Have you received the new chisel yet and if so is it any better?

Mike


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## Noel (9 Oct 2006)

David C":2re1blyf said:


> Steady on chaps!
> 
> Not quite as hot as WC yet but getting close.
> 
> ...



I agree. I've only just read this thread and it's sad to see that some members, new and longstanding, who ought to have more sense and a modicum of civility should resort to name calling and other childish behaviour. 
If you do have to address an opinion that is contrary to your own views please do so in a civil and, dare I say it, adult manner. Otherwise move on.
We've all built and maintained a friendly and helpful community here so please have some respect for fellow members.

Regards

Noel. 
Edit, I didn't see Tony's post either but I'm sure he'll agree with the above.
Let's get back to woodworking please.

Edit: Tony
Absolutely!


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## ajbell (10 Oct 2006)

Tony et al.

I am new to hand tools and am trying my best to learn
how to use Stanley planes and the like.

I have no idea if LN are worth the money and have only used
one once (but it did seem to cut really well).

However, personally I find it comforting to know that if I do
spend my hard earned money on a LN tool that if there is the slightest
problem with it that they will sort it out pronto with a smile on their
face.

I am sure other firms will do exactly the same - I am sure other
firms will not do exactly the same.

Therefore the first posting was of great use to me, 
and may influence any future purchase. 


So thanks one and all.


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## Anonymous (10 Oct 2006)

Hi all

I just deleted a post and am now locking this thread.

It was always meant to be in praise of the excellent service LN offered, but some poeple have turned it into something else.


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