# Sharpening by hand



## Keefaz (4 Aug 2006)

Hi, all!

I thought I'd try and pick your brains in regards to sharpening. My current set-up is a stone like this:







and another stone like this:







My typical routine is: flatten the back on the coarse stone, then onto the combination stone to polish it up. Then apply the initial bevel on the coarse stone--using a guide--and take it onto the combi stone to refine. Then apply the micro-bevel on the combi stone and polish it up nicely.

And it works. Pretty much. But! It's taking hours! That old Record #5 I got the other week.... blimey! I cleaned it all up, removed the blade and spent basically the whole day getting it sharp. Just to flatten the back took hours. What am I doing wrong?  Or is this simply how long it takes? Even new chisels take a good hour+ to flatten!


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## George_N (4 Aug 2006)

I don't think you are doing anything wrong. You don't need to flatten and polish the whole back of a blade though, just the last few mm, and you only need to do it once for each blade. One of these lapping kits might speed things up...haven't used one though.


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## Anonymous (4 Aug 2006)

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## ike (4 Aug 2006)

Hi Jacob,



> What's with all this flattening and polishing?



Flattening is a once only job on chisels or plane blades. Some may feel it's not necessary at all, others may be obsessed with flatness (granite surface plates, coordinate measuring machines do seem rather OTT I agree!). 

Basically a little concavity on plane blades or chisels is better than convexity. As for polishing, for myself, after honing on the fine stone (1200 for me) polishing is but a few seconds on either a 4000 waterstone or a a leather strop with polishing soap to give an extra keen razor edge. I find polishing does improve the cut.

cheers,

ike


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## Paul Chapman (4 Aug 2006)

In my experience it all depends on how flat your blades are and how much metal you need to remove. I've found that Clifton and Veritas (new) blades take a matter of minutes whereas some others take forever. You might also want to check that all your stones are equally flat - if not that could cause you problems :wink: 

Paul


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## Keefaz (4 Aug 2006)

Oh! While we're on the subject! A number of books I've been reading have been talking about the blades of planes being curved or convex in shape to ensure the the plane only takes shavings from the centre of the blade. 

Assuming you want this, how on earth do you go about creating a curved blade?!


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## j (4 Aug 2006)

If you get the chance, I suggest you look at David Charlesworth's DVD on sharpening.
He likes the curved blade method, and shows you how to do it.

I can't remember how he did it now, but there was nothing particularly tricky.


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## ike (4 Aug 2006)

> how on earth do you go about creating a curved blade?!



Usually by accident if your stone isn't flat! :roll:  

Ike


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## George_N (4 Aug 2006)

If you sharpen without a guide you'll probably get a camber or curved edge without even trying. If you use a guide like the Veritas Mk II you get a very straight edge because of the wide roller. Narrow roller guides like the Eclipse will probably also give you a camber without trying. Veritas have brought out a camber rollerto address the problem of only being able to get a straight edge with their Mk II guide. There has been a lot of discussion on this site recently about cambered blades and why you need them in a plane (not on a chisel though)...do a search and you'll find more lots information.
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## Alf (4 Aug 2006)

j":1ko6q0n5 said:


> If you get the chance, I suggest you look at David Charlesworth's DVD on sharpening.


Or have a look at the Woodworking Channel; they've been showing extracts off and on. Basically you just want to put more pressure on the outside edges when you hone the bevel - the greater the desired camber, the more strokes the outer edges need.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (4 Aug 2006)

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## ike (4 Aug 2006)

> Usually on purpose by using a stone worn in the middle!



Yeah, I was joking! I'd keep my stones flat but do as suggested and vary the pressure from side to side, that way you set the amount of camber and not the stone.

cheers,

Ike


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## RogerM (4 Aug 2006)

I have a 2 sided Indian Oilstone, coarse on one side and fine (red) on the other. The coarse side is becoming worn in the middle, so do I have to get a new stone to sharpen my chisels to keep the cutting edge straight, and maybe keep the old one for smoothing plane blades? Or is there some way to flatten the grindling surface, and if so, is it worth it!

I use an eclipse sharpening guide which I reckon is fine, but then I've never used any other method of sharpening!


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## ike (4 Aug 2006)

Depends how badly worn it is Roger. I'd probably just save the hassle and buy a new oilstone as they are cheap.

Ike


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## Colin C (4 Aug 2006)

ike":ld400xoy said:


> Depends how badly worn it is Roger. I'd probably just save the hassle and buy a new oilstone as they are cheap.
> 
> Ike


Or get a diamond stone as Tilgear do the eze-lap's for a good price. 
Number 01707 873434


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## RogerM (4 Aug 2006)

Yeh - I guess I should stop being a cheapskate. £14.56 for double sided oilstone plus honing guide plus oil here

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... e=1&jump=0

Thanks guys


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## engineer one (5 Aug 2006)

as said elsewhere, i have found that flattening the back of record and stanley plane blades is a longer task than LN or LV, but the first time always takes time.

if you check out the sharpening books either leonard lee's or the tom lie neilson one, they both recommend a flatter back since it actually ensures that your sharpening angle is consistent, also the intersection makes actual cutting better. i think mr grimsdale that if you actually spent the time to flatten the back of one of your planes, even the small bit that
DC now recommends, you would find planing even easier. you do seem to 
feel that many modern techniques have no value whilst others have found that modern sharpening techniques just make their lives easier.

it is of course too easy to get really anal about it, i find that chisels which are flat and polished cut more easily, and your angles are generally more
correctly upright, but then maybe i don't have your experience with making the best of a bad job.

in my most recent experience, marples, now irwin and other mass produced chisels do not take the hard work as much as one would like,
client's return them for sharpening much more quickly.

have to say it would be nice to find a quick and easy way to flatten the
bottom of some of my older planes, on emery it seems to take for ever.

paul :wink:


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## Clinton1 (5 Aug 2006)

This came up elsewhere on the web, and I think a lot of people, on that forum, that were dead set in their ways are changing to it.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=34545

Hopefully I will get to try this on a weekend sharpening demo that forum is running.

Flattening the back is a preference, and I do it. 
It is hard work, so I only do an inch or so to cut down on the work. I use wet and dry paper, then go to a waterstone. I'm thinking that diamond stones would be quicker and might get a combo plate. To get a good polish on the second hand blades I buy might take 20 minutes, sometimes more. It depends on the condition of the blade and its hardness I guess. 

That bench grinder set up in the link above cuts the time right down, but I work out of a tool box so it isn't for me just yet.

Have fun!


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## Shady (5 Aug 2006)

Keefaz,

I empathize with you mate: this was exactly the sort of thing that caused me much head-scratching when I started.

Some observations;

Firstly, be aware that everyone has their own preference, so be prepared to sink in a welter of good advice... :wink: 

Secondly, I find that it helps to view working blades in 2 ways, with 2 different techniques applied for both:

a) The 'ways' are:

Setting up - on purchase, or after some major cock-up like running it into a bandsaw blade, or when you're changing the grinding angle for a different wood or use.

Running maintenance, which is normally about re-establishing a sharp edge while in use.

b) The 'techniques' are grinding, and honing. 

Grinding is coarse work - it has no place in running maintenance, and will not establish a good cutting edge. I use a cheapo slow running water wheel to avoid damaging the temper of the steel for the edge, and carborundum grit on a steel lapping plate if flattening a back. This is how I 'set' the angles, flatness etc. This _can_ take a while, but more on that later. Carborundum is significntly faster than a waterstone.

Honing is getting the steel that now has the geometry I want sharp enough to cut - this should be all that is necessary in the 'running maintenance' phase of a tool's life. That's where I use waterstones, and a strop if appropriate.

If you want some idea of actual speeds, check out this link, where I tuned up a battered and rusty old chisel: you will get faster... :wink: 

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Shady_on_Sharpening.htm

(Oh and as an after thought, don't go though the whole back flattening rigamarole unless the tool actually needs it: check with a straight edge, and make use of DC's ruler trick to minimise the amount of work: the only time I'll flatten a whole back is if it's in an awful rusty state, or convex. As others have said, the higher up the quality ladder you purchase, the less of an issue this should be.)


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## Anonymous (5 Aug 2006)

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## Alf (5 Aug 2006)

Roger, traditionally sharp sand on a flat surface was used to flatten oilstones - it's not that bad a task, as long as you don't let things get too out of hand first... Various abrasives will work really, another stone, sandpaper, grit, whatever; it's no different from waterstones, just that because they take longer to get out of flat they take longer to flatten again. But less often - swings and roundabouts.  But if it's really bad and you have no particular attachment to that stone, then I agree, you might find your time is worth more than the replacement. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Keefaz (5 Aug 2006)

Shady":2n8gdkng said:


> Keefaz,
> 
> I empathize with you mate: this was exactly the sort of thing that caused me much head-scratching when I started.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice! Followed your link. Very informative. 

Being a beginner, it's not just the sharpening I'm slow at; it's everything!


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## engineer one (5 Aug 2006)

it's a pipper isn't it, but the only way to get quicker is to practice,
and the only way to practice is with sharp tools.

had a blood test yesterday, and the guy taking the blood had lots of 
tattoos, so i said do they hurt, he said YES, but i want them, he also said don't let anyone tell you they don't hurt.

the analogy is to tools. for whatever reason it has become common practice and economic reality that if you buy cheapish tools they need
working on to provide proper cutting edges, but as shady says, it should be done only once for some time. 

back to the bottom of planes, it is a fact that unless the toe, area around the blade, and heel are aligned with each other, you will never have proper
control of the flatness of the wood you are planing.

still shady i noticed you do not cover the "enjoyable" job of flattening the sole to a sensible amount. 

i know everybody has their own ideas about the best way to sharpen, but we all seem to use a number of methods on the same blade, in my case,
tormek, then water stones, then now finally, an oilstone, recently purchased, only a simple norton, but it does help with the final bevel,
for which i use the veritas camber roller on my mk11 veritas jig.

so how about specifics in terms of the best sandpaper/ emery paper 
or what to use for flattening the soles of planes????

PLEASE it is a pain in the a**e and time consuming.  :twisted: 

paul :wink:


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## Shady (5 Aug 2006)

> still shady i noticed you do not cover the "enjoyable" job of flattening the sole to a sensible amount.



Oh God Paul, don't scare the poor bloke!

Keefaz: he's right: the other major learning curve with planes is how to best flatten the base, and how to assess whether it's necessary. Whole different subject, and definitely one where paying for quality is a great help - at the moment, common consensus is that Lie Nielsen will, with respect to base flatness, work 'out of the box' (and will exchange for free if it's not), Lee Valley and Clifton should be OK, but may need a little tweaking, and others are a pot luck feast.

Paul - for me it's sheets of silicon carbide on float glass: not what perfectionists would recommend, but it gives me working tools... My fear is always destroying the right angle between base and sides, so I'm constantly checking with an engineer's square. I like as wide/long an area as possible, and use spray mount glue to hold the wet and dry down without bumps etc.


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## Anonymous (5 Aug 2006)

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## engineer one (5 Aug 2006)

shady, having done it and found some of it enjoyable, ie learning to sharpen, i have no desire to put others off, and it can be easy to do so.

i think mr grimsdale is being somewhat naive, since he obviously had some kind of training, so can use his skills to overcome manufacturing flaws.

anyway each to his own, but what brand of silicon carbide do you use shady, everyone seems to have a favourite, and if it works for you, then 
it might for me. i have the float glass, but so far have spent many odd minutes trying to get to what i as an engineer might see as level across the whole surfaces. i could of course use one of my engineers scrapers
and lumps of blue if i could find it to make life easier, but sanding seems more logical in one way. indeed in the old days we used to draw file surfaces to get them flat, and if i could figure out a jig to ensure i kept my 
12 in turnip square to the sides, then i might try that. (sorry meant file )

i do think it is a false economy to buy cheap tools since it is not just the 
blades and surfaces which may not be flat and true, but often these days,
the adjusters and their fittings tend to be really cheaply made, almost un -adjustable, and with massive backlash, and what ALWAYS happens is that the problems occur halfway through a job, and then you have a mucked up job on which you have to learn how to use the newly acquired tool.

my personal 2 pence but it is strange that i have 40 year old engineers tools that i bought as an apprentice that did not need flattening and anything other than honing, and still work well, but a brand new stanley 
apron plane will not cut fine shavings from the box. it needs properly
sharpening and tuning. :? 

no wonder woodies don't like engineers, our tools in the main work from the box. you dont buy a hacksaw and the sharpen the blade, you buy a new one! :twisted: 

if youhave skills acquired years ago then you can work round, if you are new buy the best you can. 

interesting though the latest popular woodworking includes a franz klausz article where he reckons Irwin, ex marple record blue line chisels are
good bang for the buck, maybe the yanks get the better steel, and we get the cheese. :twisted: 

paul :wink:


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## Colin C (5 Aug 2006)

Hi All
I have found intresting as sharping is one of the things I found very hard to do right all of the time but after getting a jig ( some thing I used to turn my nose up at :roll: ), I have found it much easier to get my tools sharp quicker.

Mr_Grimsdale, I understand your thinking but when is the last time you bought a new plane or chisel because from what I have seen, I am very happy with mine, of with most are old ( planes and chisels ).
If you get the chace go have a look at same of the big names ( Stanley,Record/Irwin and Marples ), I think you will be very surprised at what they are selling compared to what you used to get.

Flattening the back of tools is some thing to do more os now as a young chip friend of mine that helps me on the odd job, had some new marples chisels that he found hard to sharpen, I had a look at them and the grinding on the back was more like the grinding on the surface of the table on my bandsaw :shock: .
As soom as I told him to flatten the backs, he found it much easier to sharpen them but I have some old Marple chisels with wooden handles and have not had to do that as the grinding was very fine on them.

Also when you go and look at the planes , take a straight egde with you and try to find a flat one, it may not be that easy.

I also dont have any LN or LV planes as I can dont what I need with what I have but I have a Japanese plane iron in my No6 as I got the blade for a £5


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## newt (5 Aug 2006)

My sharpening process is as follows:
Draper diamond wet stones fine , med and course £15, 2 pieces of 18mm mdf 1000 wet and dry on one piece and 2500 wet dry on the other, £ 5. eclipse honing guide, £ 2 many years ago.
25 deg bevel on the wet stones, then 30 deg on 1000, then final honing on 2500, back strokes only on the wet and dry, lubricate wet and dry with WD40. Finally push the blade into the end of a piece of soft pine moving it back and forth a few times. The final test is it must cleanly cut the hair on the back of my arm, you should be able to do miniature crop circles if your careful, but they are not mandatory.


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## engineer one (5 Aug 2006)

nice one newt, but not sure about these aliens on your arms. :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (5 Aug 2006)

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## Shady (5 Aug 2006)

Paul:

I use any generic silicon carbide for plane soles, with WD40 or camellia oil as a lubricant. (why camellia oil? Because I bought it for rust protection, and discovered that it was useless, so I need to get rid of it...)

The paper wears out surprisingly fast (like about 5 to 10 minutes...). 

Although I accept Jacob's point that it is often not necessary, I got into this because, as a self-taught newcomer who started about 15 years ago, when L-N, L-V and Clifton were hardly even heard of, and there was no internet to help me learn on sites like this, I found it very difficult to get _consistent_ sharpening results with my Stanley bailey pattern planes.

As a scientist, I wanted to minimise the number of variables (ie, was it my sharpening technique, the flatness of the plane soles, the inherent backlash, poor quality steel, etc, etc.) I do not strive for what an engineer would describe as flat, but I do scribble across the sole with a black felt tip, and then rub it on a relatively coarse grade silicon carbide. I always push 'along' the plane sole, to minimise any chance of introducing convexity across the sole. 

After a few strokes, I inspect the base. Funnily enough, I arrived, independently, at the belief that provided the toe, front and back of the mouth, and heel, were in line fore and aft, and across the body, and proud of any other bit of the sole, the plane should work. (this is, of course, how a Japanese Dai is configured.) My soles are not necessarily flat, but they are all at this point of flatness, which means that the sole is not an issue if I can't work out why a plane is 'squirrely'...

As a result of my learning curve, I agree with you - Jacob obviously gets results with his tools - but he obviously knows how to - it's a classic chicken and egg problem. That said - I definitely don't do it if a plane cuts well with a newly honed iron in it - " if it ain't broke, don't fix it..." Hope that helps others...


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## Sgian Dubh (5 Aug 2006)

Having read through this thread I do find it a little disconcerting that there is still so much agonising over the need for, and processes of flattening plane soles and chisel backs, along with the usefulness (or not) of sharpening aids.

I don't take Mr. Grimsdale's approach where he seems to dismiss tool flattening as irrelevant-- I may have read him wrong, and if I did so I apologise. I've never found that to be the case. A plane sole that is flat, certainly in the important bits, helps no end.

In my experience as long as it's flat all along the rim and all round the mouth, that's good enough, although flatter is nice too-- if a plane sole is flattened as described you get a sort of figure 8 configuration where the sole is a bit hollow in the centre of each circle that forms the 8, and the mouth opening is where the two circles of the 8 meet.

The same with chisels. They don't need a back to be flat all along the length, just the 25- 35 mm or so at the business end generally works fine.

Flattening plane irons similarly where only the last 12- 25 mm is really smooth and flat works well (on standard bevel down planes anyway.) What really matters is that the curved end of the cap iron (chip breaker to some) conforms nicely with the back of the blade leaving no gap for shavings to get trapped in. And this suggests that really only the 2-4 mm nearest the cutting edge requires being just so.

Each year I have to teach new woodworkers how to tune up their tools. I can't afford for the process to become too involved and difficult for inexperienced woodworkers. It puts them off-- it's not in my nature anyway to get hung up on what is really a basic and simple set of processes as I'm working furniture maker that happens to also teach.

An extremely badly out of whack plane sole can be flattened in a hurry. Simply get a roll of the 4” or so wide green 40- 60- 80 grit paper from somewhere like B&Q-- £7 a go or thereabouts. Stick a long length down on a flat surface (e.g., glass) with spray mount-- 3 or 4 feet is good, but less will do. Set up your plane as if you're going to use it and retract the blade. Now 'plane' the sandpaper. I've never seen a badly dished plane sole take more than ten or 20 minutes to get flat using this super aggressive treatment (if using 40 or 60 grit.) 

In truth, very few planes need this sort of aggression and you can flatten a sole adequately for working with using 100 grit-- 120 grit of the same type of green roll of paper.

There's no need to get a plane sole highly polished as some like. There's not much harm in it, but it's simply additional work. If you finish the plane sole at 80 grit and it's flat, you've got the essentials done. Some would argue that 80 grit striations on a sole is good in that it reduces friction. It’s good enough for me anyway so I can easily go along with that. 

The back of chisels need to be smoother and this can often be done quickly with less aggressive abrasive paper and a touch up on a sharpening stone. After the initial flattening the process of honing alone should keep the back of a chisel flat enough for use.

As to sharpening, again I refer back to beginners I teach. I don’t want them to struggle with the job. It’s not in my interests to have learners put off by difficulties. I demonstrate freehand sharpening and encourage them to try and develop the skill. Not all learners can get it quickly—it’s not like learning how to sharpen as I had to do under pressure from the crusty old cabinetmaker I was sent to work with. For me it was, get it right, get it right fast, or by the end of the week I’d be looking for another job.

If a learner can’t get freehand sharpening right fairly quickly I suggest they try a honing guide and, for some, it’s the answer to their prayers. Most give up on the guides after a wee while. They’re limiting and fiddly and I’ve never used one brought in by one of my learners that I’d want to buy. To me they’re just a bloody hindrance to good sharpening, and most of the learners I work with soon work out how limiting they are and stop using them within a year.

Anyway, to end, I do often wish that the whole ‘mystery’ of plane sole flattening and tool sharpening could be knocked on the head. It can’t really afford to be mysterious as it’s an essential skill. As my old cabinetmaker tormentor said to me once, “If ye cannae e’en shairpen yer f-ing tools son, ye’ll never make a bloody cabinetmaker,“ or something like that, but perhaps not as polite, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Anonymous (5 Aug 2006)

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## Shady (5 Aug 2006)

Jacob and Sgian Dubh:

Agree with both of you - just remember that for the self taught amateur, sat out here in the metaphorical dark, it's darned difficult to disentangle folklore from useful info. My personal hatred is the sales push that tries to get people to buy expensive machines to do a job that will impart far more understanding and satisfaction with a little handskill effort. Sharpening, and understanding the effects of grinding away metal, is a particular case in point: I don't do it gratuitously, but if a tool does require fettling, I have finally got to a point where I'm pretty confident I know what I'm doing - and am delighted if I can help someone else 'up the slope'.

However, as I've said elsewhere, and as Jacob points out entirely rightly, I can afford to learn and obsess, because I don't have to make a living out of this: if I did, I'm not sure how many handtools would survive in my shop: I'd be focusing on time, cost and quantity.

At the end of the day, I get as much pleasure from tool tweaking as I do from making stuff - each to his own, and we can all enjoy different aspects of our hobby.


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## engineer one (6 Aug 2006)

interesting, i have no complaint that if it works for you then go with it, BUT.

the fact is that woodworking these days is rarely taught so people have to pick up the basics where they can. it is without doubt vital to learn to sharpen, and if you bought all the bit available, you could never afford the tools you need to sharpen :lol: :lol: 

in addition every month or so, the magazines offer another fabulous method of sharpening your tools that does not require any effort, nor
does it take any time, as long as you were the guy who invented it.

i find it amazing that so few people who talk about sharpening can actually
write about it in such a way that anyone can easily pick it up.

i am lucky i could afford the tormek when i bought it, and frankly having checked out a couple of record planes in local stores, then checked the prices, i felt that it was worth the premium to buy clifton, ln or lv.
were i to be working full time maybe i would take a different approach, but 
everyone who talks here, apart from mr grimsdale, buys a second hand plane, spends a number of hours flattening the sole, the chip breaker, and the frog, plus possibly putting in new screws, and then also putting new
totes and handles on and finally, a new blade, when they do the math
will have spent almost as much as a comparably new ln or lv with less
work. i agree that all planes need sharpening when you use them, but 
in my recent experience for other people, lv and ln, plus clico blades and the japanese ones take and keep a better edge more quickly.

indeed thursday i spent half an hour fettling some spacer blocks for 
a deck i was modifying, with my LN 60 1/2 holding the blocks i was able to 
quickly and easily get thinner small blocks than i have in the past with
a stanley, and the blade still has an edge.

i think the most important thing to teach new users is NOT to grind with a
powered grinder, but start out learning to sharpen using diamond stones,
water stones, sand paper, or water stones, and if you want, (as a recent convert back to for certain things) an oil stone. that way they have a hard job affecting the temper and or hardness of the metal.

i will try the green paper for my older record and bailey,
and time them this time round. but will still use my LV and LN 
planes for the bits i am presently undertaking.

finally having sharpened about three dozen different marples and other modern chisels, as well as my favourite dutch nooitgedagt ones over the last twelve months on a regular basis, the ones which hold the edge longer,
are the dutch ones, and they are the ones with the most effectively polished backs. in my mind it is to do with the way in which the front and rear cutting surfaces intersect at the correct angle that allows the chisels to work most effectively for longer. then when they blunt it is only the work of a few minutes to recover the edge, either by secondary honing,
or even getting a new primary edge.

paul :wink:


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## MikeW (6 Aug 2006)

engineer one":3m5tv2c3 said:


> ...i find it amazing that so few people who talk about sharpening can actually write about it in such a way that anyone can easily pick it up...


I think this is because sharpening is a mechanical skill that even when one understands the technique of the chosen method, it takes repetition. Sometimes a lot of repetition in order to align what one knows to producing what one ought.

I think what further compounds the issue is when one bounces from one method or technique to another before mastering the method or technique at hand.

Often this is because the results do not align with what one knows one should obtain. So the method or technique is ditched in favor of another. And often, this technique or method is ditched for yet another. Doing this is counterproductive.

So I am all for picking a method or technique one believes in--can get behind and "know" it will work for them--and stick to it. Some methods are easier to get immediate results: machines and honing guides come to mind. My feeling about these devices are "great, go for it." But stick to it and at some point the results will align with what one expects.

Take care, Mike


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## Paul Chapman (6 Aug 2006)

MikeW":28tq75ja said:


> I think what further compounds the issue is when one bounces from one method or technique to another before mastering the method or technique at hand.
> 
> Often this is because the results do not align with what one knows one should obtain. So the method or technique is ditched in favor of another. And often, this technique or method is ditched for yet another. Doing this is counterproductive.



How true. This can not only be counterproductive, but can waste a lot of time and money. I would recommend visiting one of the large woodworking shows where you can see all the various methods and techniques demonstrated, and you can also pick the brains of plane manufacturers and ask "what do you use". That way you can hopefully decide what method would suit your temperament and pocket. I did this and now have a very simple, fast and repeatable method that suits me and it's no longer a problem :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (6 Aug 2006)

Sgian Dubh":3cfrn2de said:


> As to sharpening, again I refer back to beginners I teach. I don’t want them to struggle with the job. It’s not in my interests to have learners put off by difficulties. I demonstrate freehand sharpening and encourage them to try and develop the skill.


Wotcha, Richard; would that be using a hollow ground bevel?

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (6 Aug 2006)

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## Paul Chapman (6 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2bjvht4l said:


> ctually the LAST place to go for good advice. They (Axminster etc) are the ones who have created this 'sharpening anxiety' in the first place and they want to sell you as much stuff as you can afford - and beyond! You won't hear anybody saying "this is a Tormek but you don't really need it" or "here are 25 varieties of diamond encrusted whotsits but I wouldn't bother if I was you".
> They want you to BUY IT ALL and then give up and buy a 'useable from the box' bit of kit - and then buy another one I presume, when that is blunt.
> Sup with the devil - take a long spoon!



Which is why I said pick the brains of plane manufacturers. They are into selling planes, not sharpening systems, but want you to get the best from their tools. All I ended up doing was adding a leather strop and some polishing compound to my sharpening system (three diamond stones and some WD40). That addition has transformed my blades from not bad to razor sharp. So simple yet so effective - I still can't believe how simple the solution was :shock: :wink: 

Paul


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## Anonymous (6 Aug 2006)

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## David C (6 Aug 2006)

I think there has been excellent advice in this discussion, but the variety of methods is significant.

Sgian is now in a somewhat similar situation to me. About 50 beginners or keen amateurs of hugely varying experience come on my courses every year. Some of the amateurs have been working wood for 40 years.

I have very rarely seen chisels which were working as well as they can, only about three instances come to mind. Very few of the planes are working well / if at all, either.

It is not that difficult to teach people how to do the job really well, but only if they are in the same room/workshop! However hard one tries to describe the processes, in words or DVDs, I constantly hear something like this, "it is so much easier now that we can see, that point was not so easy to understand from the book or DVD.

This makes a good case for more clubs, such as the woodturners seem to have, or perhaps more visits to other peoples workshops. Are furniture makers less gregarious than turners?

Some particularly analytical minds may work these things out for themselves, but there is no totally satisfactorty substitute for being shown, and getting through the initial difficulties, with someone who can do it.

David Charlesworth


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## Paul Chapman (6 Aug 2006)

David C":3qy34ww5 said:


> Some particularly analytical minds may work these things out for themselves, but there is no totally satisfactorty substitute for being shown, and getting through the initial difficulties, with someone who can do it.



Good advice (as always, Mr C). I use Clifton planes so when I was at the Woodworker Show at Alexandra Palace I had a word with Mike Hudson (always very helpful) on the Clifton stand. His blades are like mirrors so I simply said "Show me how you do that". And he did. And it was so simple. Nothing like seeing it done :wink: 

Jacob - I use WD40 for everything so use it on my diamond stones as well, but 3in1 oil is as good. Alf uses lamp oil if I remember correctly. Like everything else, it doesn't seem to matter much - whatever works for you :wink: 

Paul


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## engineer one (6 Aug 2006)

thanks for entering the fray DC, as usual a sensible set of comments.

i think it is important to consider the following.

1/ when starting out with no help, how do you know what is sharp??
2/ find a system that is reasonably inexpensive to start with and learn the basics, stick with it and you will eventually get the basics right,
but
3/ since you do not know what is really sharp, how do you learn to improve your technique?
4/ try or buy a better quality tool so that you have a benchmark of sharpness.
5/ always buy the best tools you can afford, since from the get go you have more time to learn about the tool properly rather than learn by guess work a skill which can be as off putting as enjoyable.
6/ most of us on the forum do not earn our living with the tools we have, we want to have as much time woodworking not sharpening, so tend only to re-sharpen when it is blunt rather than following the dc method of honing every time we open the box to use it.

as i have said before, i bought the tormek because coming back into the "game" i had a lot of tools to sharpen, and only a limited time in which to do it. now the machine has paid for itself.

for everyday use, i have a couple of systems, and strangely, find they
each have a value for different tools.

Mr Grimsdale was and is lucky to have learnt to sharpen, but since he did other methods have been developed which i think have improved ones ability to provide a sharper tool, now only by trying can you see what works for you. 

and to the initial poster, stick with your method, it does get quicker as you learn more, and don't be afraid that you are doing it wrong if every time you re-sharpen, you find a little improvement in the tool you use and the job it does. i can certainly get decent shavings and a good surface from my planes, and chisels. now all i have to do is properly learn to set the wooden ones, and i shall be a happy bunny. must try to make one of the meetings to meet those who have offered to show me the method.

actually i now find sharpening the way i do it quite quick, easy and therapeutic. so i must be doing something right, as well as some woodwork too :lol: :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Lord Nibbo (6 Aug 2006)

Some forty five years ago I went for my very first woodwork lesson at school. For four weeks we never touched a piece of wood, week one began by being shown and practicing how to sharpen chisels to correct angles with nothing more than an oil stone and a can of what I would now assume to be engine oil. Week two we moved on to plane blades with more emphisis on cutting angles. Week three we moved to sharpening and setting saw blades [something I strill detest doing ] Week four was drill bits & Augers by hand with no jigs, of which some in the class found BORING (Pun intended) but I found very interesting in the need for varying angles needed for drilling metal v wood and over the years have probably saved hundreds of pounds by salvageing old bits from the bin. 

I've never lost the art of sharpening anything [I still wont sharpen saws ] I still own an old oil stone and over the years have added various diamond stones, jigs etc etc.... I've even moved on or should I say backwards and used what now is better known as the scary sharp method [was shown this method at least forty years ago by my father].

How do I do it now? with the exception of drill bits I use a Tormek and sometimes a Veritas Mk2 jig. Times move on the Tormek is the best thing I've ever bought.


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## Alf (6 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":3imc3w23 said:


> All I ended up doing was adding a leather strop and some polishing compound


Try the same on a hard felt or MDF wheel mounted in a grinder and be prepared to go "coo" :shock: Make sure the wheel's turning away from the edge, natch.

Perhaps it'd be helpful for beginners to get away from the waterstones/diamonds/oilstones stuff and just think of it all as coarse/medium/fine/extra fine? After all you can pretty much mix and match - except waterstones after oil would be a recipe for disaster I imagine. I dunno, it just seems we do tend to get wrapped up in the _form_ of the abrasive which must just add to the confusion.

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (6 Aug 2006)

Alf":3rsljf6x said:


> Perhaps it'd be helpful for beginners to get away from the waterstones/diamonds/oilstones stuff and just think of it all as coarse/medium/fine/extra fine? After all you can pretty much mix and match - except waterstones after oil would be a recipe for disaster I imagine. I dunno, it just seems we do tend to get wrapped up in the _form_ of the abrasive which must just add to the confusion.



Well said, Alf. All roads lead to Rome :wink: 

Paul


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## engineer one (6 Aug 2006)

but paul that's like the old Irish, "if i were you i would not be starting from here". it has happened to me in Dublin honest.

as usual alf pithy and to the point. but i do think it is possible to start with a diamond and finish with an oil stone, not least because you tend to use a cutting fluid on diamonds, and the oil would help prevent any corrosion.

it is true that in the old times, you got taught about edges before touching the wood, or indeed in my case the metal. now you cut the wood, then wonder why it is so hard.

i think the other problem is the amount of space you need to allow for the sharpening paraphenalia you collect once you start over the top onto the slope. 

i think we ALL search for even sharper as we gain experience, hence the sales of ever more complex additional jigs, surfaces and tools.

seems to me the thing is,
chose a medium, diamond/oil/water by a coarse and a fine medium,
then get the jigs even the cheap Hilka/Eclipse type and understand angles and actually using the sharpening equipment. stick with it for at least one year, then try to improve by testing other means, but at least then you have a baseline that you know about.

paul :wink:


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## Sgian Dubh (6 Aug 2006)

Alf":1sy5yktv said:


> Wotcha, Richard; would that be using a hollow ground bevel? Cheers, Alf



The odd thing is Alf the older I've got, the less fussy I am about what I use to grind tools and to sharpen them.

Twenty or so years ago I used to swear by grinding with a horizontal running stone with a drip feed of oil from a tank. Nowadays I'm perfectly happy with a high speed grinder as long as it's got a coarse open grit stone on it-- 30 or 60 grit is good. I'm not particularly bothered about seeking and using the soft pink or white stones, but they're fine too.

However, I'm really not keen on the Tormek type systems-- perfectly usable, but far too slow for my impatient nature at the grindstone. Other people I'm aware swear by them. 

For final sharpening, again I don't really mind what's thrown in front of me by a learner to demonstrate on. I do have a couple of systems I really don't like, but I'll still use them if that's what the learner's got. 

One I don't like is the sandpaper on glass trick. It gets up my nose being far too fiddly-- farting about with bits of glass, acres of paper and spray mount. Someone about ten or fifteen years ago started talking about this new and innovative 'scary sharp' system. I was very disappointed when I found out what it really was, ha, ha. I'd always thought that dodge was the last resort when you'd left your stone in the workshop during an installation.

The other sharpening system I'm not too fond of are the diamond stones with a sort of mesh or grill thing over a plastic base. It's too easy to drop a corner of a blade in a hole but, still, I can work around it.

For my own sharpening I use a couple of ceramic stones in the workshop. I also use combination oil stones on my site tools-- I've got two separate kits-- one good for the workshop and one rough for site work. 

I have an 800 grit ceramic stone and the other is probably 4000 grit. The 4000 grit doesn't get used much except if I need a fine polish for some reason. For the most part tools don't need to be super-dooper sharp, just good enough to do the job at hand. I do a bit of final stropping by flipping the blade backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand. There's abunch of slips too that I use, some are oil and some are ceramic. I used to use a couple of Japanese stones too, but when the last one broke I didn't replace it and switched to ceramic stones. 

I think whatever works for the user is fine by me. In the end a blade's either sharp enough for the job, or it isn't. Slainte.


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## MikeW (6 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1plet7jz said:


> MikeW":1plet7jz said:
> 
> 
> > I think what further compounds the issue is when one bounces from one method or technique to another before mastering the method or technique at hand.
> ...


I think Jacob's statement is an absolutely true thing.

I learned on oil stones as did those who taught me. That was all there was, other than the pedal-powered grindstone we mostly used on axes, adzes, drawknives and such tools.

Oil stones are an incredibly inexpensive "system" with which to begin, or at least can be. I also think Alf's use of the terms of "coarse/medium/fine/extra fine" is a better way to consider and is actually in line with most vendor's sale of oil stones. I would look for a coarse, medium and fine stone and just get on with it.

I also believe we as modern day woodworkers rely too much on self-learning--or learning by the proxy known as the internet--things which were taught by our elders. Something like sharpening, a fundamental skill one would do well to establish at the beginning, is best initially taught in-person. Else for many, muddling through "systems" ensues all too often, producing more frustration as one begins to understand the need for sharp tools and cannot produce them.

In the past, if one did not know how to do something, one who did was sought out. In person. At least in the rural areas, which is my experience. This willingness to seek another in person or the ability to do so is avoided in favor of the internet. 

In the US even if our "neighbor" is in the same boat as we are, we can most likely find someone via a local guild, another local woodworker, a competent retailer or a school very easily. If one takes advantage of these resources. I imagine this is true no matter where.

In person learning can make for understanding the mechanics a couple hour endeavor and have a mentor of sorts to aid in further refining technique and correct shortcomings. All the while increasing success in this thing called "sharp" and the whole point of sharpening: woodworking.

OK. Not enough coffee...Take care, Mike


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## Mirboo (6 Aug 2006)

I do all my sharpening by hand because I don't have a bench grinder or other powered means of shaping the edge of my tools.  My sharpening technique is self taught based on reading books and things I have picked up on forums like this.

My sharpening media is a set of Norton waterstones that I purchased about 12 months ago (when I started using hand planes more in my woodworking). The grits are 220, 1000, 4000, and 8000. I have only used the 220 grit stone once so far, when I made a couple of 10mm chisels into skew chisels and so had a fair bit of metal to remove (even on the 220 grit stone this took a while). If I chipped a blade or put a serious ding in one then I would anticipate using the 220 to correct it but so far I haven't had to. I use the 1000, 4000 and 8000 stones in that order to flatten the backs of blades. I use the 1000 to maintain the primary bevel on my blades and then use the 8000 to produce a micro bevel. I could probably do without the 4000 grit stone if I had to.

Prior to getting hold of the waterstones I used a combination oil stone as my sharpening media. I used this mainly on chisels because I wasn't using planes much until recently. I find that using waterstones achieves a result much quicker than an oil stone.

I use a honing guide, the Veritas MkII for my plane blades and wider chisels, an Eclipse 36 for narrow chisels (the Veritas doesn't hold narrow chisels as well as the Eclipse I don't reckon).

Here are some photographs of shavings I produced today. I was shooting mitres on the end grain of some Tassie (Tasmanian) Oak moulding using my No. 8 bench plane with a blade sharpened using my waterstones. The shavings produced were nice and curly but could be unrolled to show perfect little slices of the moulding. I measured one with a vernier and it was about 0.08mm thick.

















I reckon this shows that my plane blade was fairly sharp.

Tassie Oak is a eucalypt hardwood, so named because early European settlers in Australia believed the 3 eucalypt species commonly referred to as Tassie Oak displayed the same strength as English Oak. 

I was using my No. 8 as a shooting plane because I like the momentum generated by the weight of the plane. Once you get it going it sails through most things you care to shoot.


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## Alf (6 Aug 2006)

So is that a yes...? :?  Just wondered simply 'cos I find freehand honing a hollow ground edge is like night and day to trying to do hone a flat bevel and wondered if you taught it thusly.

Ian, looks sharp enough to me. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Sgian Dubh (6 Aug 2006)

Alf":1ugp30fg said:


> So is that a yes...Cheers, Alf



Now I see what you're asking Alf. The answer is the tools are hollow ground, but that's because the grinders we have are either the high speed grinders or the Tormek.

But whether it's a flat grind or hollow grind really makes no difference as far as I'm concerned. I just sharpen whatever's put in my hand to sharpen. 

Sometimes I'll find a blade with a bit of a nick in it and I'll even take that out quickly by 'grinding' a bit of a grinding angle on a piece of 100 grit paper held between forefinger and thumb on top of bit of MDF if it's more bother to go to the grindstone. It's crude, but it works, and you can get back to cutting wood quickly. Slainte.


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## Alf (6 Aug 2006)

Sgian Dubh":2hnvslky said:


> But whether it's a flat grind or hollow grind really makes no difference as far as I'm concerned.


Ah, I was sort of wondering if it made a difference to your students I suppose. Having read your famous apprentice sharpening piece I imagine you'd just take it as a minor challenge to put an edge on a Dairylea triangle :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## Keefaz (6 Aug 2006)

Crikey! I opened a can of worms here!

I applied some of the tips here to that Groz 60 1/2 I was moaning about a while back. I flattened the sole as best as I could on some abrasive paper glued to a bit of that coated chipboard stuff (the flattest thing I had). Then I took the blade to the waterstones and only work on the bits required (first 1" or so). Took about an hour overall.

I used it yesterday to clean up some ugly spots and end grain on an easel I made for the missus and it did a terrific job. I'm sure it's not in the same league as your LN 60 1/2, but, by my standards, it was like a knife through butter (or is it dairylea?)


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## Sgian Dubh (6 Aug 2006)

I think I'd have trouble with a wedge of cheese Alf, ha, ha. 
I do discuss the difference between a hollow grind and a flat grind when I'm teaching sharpening. I leave it up to the students to find what works best for them.

Some learners get it pretty much right away. Others I have to go back and demonstrate three or four times. That's about the limit of the number of times I'll demonstrate sharpening to one struggling learner. In the end they've got to bite the bullet and learn how to do the job themselves. If they can't, or won't learn to sharpen they're probably not really cut out for working wood. Slainte.


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## engineer one (7 Aug 2006)

having made a mess of posting a link earlier, i thought about a useful
analogy.

the computer. basically i have learnt my skills by self training, and really have difficulties with some of the things i am supposed to have learnt.

what is important to remember is that for most of what we actually do with computers, a 386 chipped item would do, but because of a few special users needing super fast working, and the overall costs of development, 
the chip companies develop ever faster chips, and dear old microsoft
more complex and power consuming programmes, which take forever to
learn even part of. so we get hussled into buying a new machine because 
they get cheaper every year. 

most of still can't type and spell properly, and inparticular, not as fast as
the machine can accept the data, but we have bought into the cycle.

i think in many ways the sharpening systems is the same thing.
we only just learn the first bit, then are tempted onto level 3 without understanding level 2.

glad you got your old plane tuned up and improved it so you have learnt a good lesson, and discovered that you can do it, which is why you asked the question.

paul :wink:


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## Alf (7 Aug 2006)

Keefaz":3gw3ff4r said:


> I used it yesterday to clean up some ugly spots and end grain on an easel I made for the missus and it did a terrific job. I'm sure it's not in the same league as your LN 60 1/2, but, by my standards, it was like a knife through butter (or is it dairylea?)


And that's the main thing =D> The Groz planes really don't work half bad with a sharp edge. It's setting the darn things that can get frustrating.

Richard, right, got it now. Thanks. I dunno, I suppose I was expecting that you taught "thou must do x, y and z" forgetting that teaching can equally well be "you can do x or y, here's the differences, choose what's best for you". Must admit I prefer the second approach. 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (7 Aug 2006)

engineer one":1aaxa2d2 said:


> as said elsewhere, i have found that flattening the back of record and stanley plane blades is a longer task than LN or LV, but the first time always takes time.



Try a convex (or pitted) 2 1/2" super hard woodie blade (e.g. I Sorby or Ward & Payne, Ibbotson...).

"they" certainly didn't worry about flatness, and the steel is tempered very high.

Lovely blades once prepped though.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (7 Aug 2006)

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## Keefaz (7 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2y5y82th said:


> Are Groz planes retailed in Britain? I googled but only got USA sites where they look good and very cheap.
> Nobody has answered the question of what you do when a 'Lee&Perrin useable outa da box' becomes blunt. Do they self sharpen or what? If you have to sharpen them yourself there would seem to be no point in having one. Or are they easier to sharpen, softer steel or summink?
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



Hi, Jacob.

I bought a Groz from Axminster where it was listed as an Axminster 60 1/2, and I believe their 220 is also a Groz.

Alf had a thread about setting-up a Groz 220 here-- https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5490 --which I found useful. The depth adjustment screw is definitely not as bad on mine as it seemed to be on the plane that Alf tuned up. No doubt quality is variable.

Like I say, once it was cleaned up and tuned it performed very well, although my standards aren't as high as those of some folks on here!


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## engineer one (7 Aug 2006)

jacob your logic at times seems a little off.
the whole point of this thread is that ALL tools need sharpening at
some time. the whole point of LN/LV /Clifton planes is that the blades
are easier to set up at the get go, and needs less work when it blunts.

no one can convince you that the other methods of sharpening are worth
the effort, but to continually knock other products or the way in which others approach the job is not a productive activity.

let's agree to disagree, and see that some people want to work with fewer compromises, whilst others do not see them as a problem.

the answer is if you make money using what you have, and it does what you want then be happy, but don't stop others wanting to improve their abilities and techniques in anyway that they choose.

there are many reasons for people to return to hand tools including,
making less dust, and also feeling more in touch with the wood, and if you have returned to the hobby/work later in life it is no different from buying a brand new honda fireblade rather than a vincent shadow. with that amount of money you buy what you want, and the best available is always an aspiration for at least the majority of people.

we don't all buy the same food, so why should we choose the same tools for our work?
paul :wink:


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## Mirboo (7 Aug 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2cvdkxin said:


> Nobody has answered the question of what you do when a 'Lee&Perrin useable outa da box' becomes blunt. Do they self sharpen or what? If you have to sharpen them yourself there would seem to be no point in having one. Or are they easier to sharpen, softer steel or summink?



:roll: 

I have no problems sharpening/honing the blades of my Lie-Nielsen planes and chisels using the methods I outlined in my earlier post. I haven't had to sharpen any of my Lie-Nielsen saws yet though. :wink:


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