# I might have to give up on the Hayrake Table.



## Benchwayze (12 Jan 2010)

Folks, 

I have scoured Google and Yahoo for some meaningful articles on the Barnsley style Hay-rake Table. I have found one or two photographs, but they are difficult to interpret. I would buy a book I have seen on Barnsley and his workshop, but the SWIMBO Radar has just been serviced and it's working at fever pitch! 

So, yet again it looks like the back of an envelope and an HB pencil! So, while I am at it, does anyone know if Whitmore's Timber Merchants in Hinkley are good for English Oak. If I can't get English oak, is it a crime to use European, or American for this project? 

Cheers
John


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## Max Power (12 Jan 2010)

I'm sure Lataxe over on fine woodworkings knotts forum recently made one of those, might be worth having a look


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## liam8223 (12 Jan 2010)

I'm five mins from Whitmores which is in Claybrooke, not Hinckley, and they will be fine for english oak.

I dont find them expensive at all, and they are extremely handy for me!

Liam


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## Paul Chapman (12 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":1nqid9ic said:


> I have scoured Google and Yahoo for some meaningful articles on the Barnsley style Hay-rake Table.



I seem to remember someone making a table in that style which featured in F&C some time ago :-k 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Aled Dafis (12 Jan 2010)

Let me have a rummage through my "stash" I'm sure that I have plans for a Hayrake table from a magazine somewhere. Let's just hope that it wasn't "filed" in the last "reorganisation" I had a few months ago :roll: 

Cheers

Aled


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## Benchwayze (12 Jan 2010)

Thanks folks... 

I remember one in 'The Woodworker' a good few years back now. It had ebony and boxwood inlays all around the edges of the top, (Wouldn't necessarily include that aspect.) But I've wanted such a table for the lounge ever since. I think the hay-rake underframe demands a full size lay-out on ply first though, so I can get busy on that when this freeze lets up! 

This will be occasional-table size btw. If it's a success, SWIMBO will no doubt realise my talents and demand a Dining Table to match. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Liam, I will definitely be making tracks for Whitmores, so thanks for that. (I already have a cube of 'centreboard' oak for the top, so that will be a saving.) 

Thanks again and I'll scout around the web a bit more. 

regards
John


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## jimi43 (12 Jan 2010)

I take it you found this one John:







They are beautiful aren't they?

Jim


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## Benchwayze (12 Jan 2010)

That is the one I saw, as far as I recall. Yes it is a fine piece of woodwork.
I particularly like the curved 'rake-head' which is a departure. I am keen on the inlays around the edge, but I don't want to be too slavish. Times like this when I wish I could carve oak-leaves! However, just look at the rays on that top! 

Thanks Jim. That's a step nearer. 

(I unearthed the mahogany BTW, but SWIMBO wanted to go shopping today. So I risked the ice! No problems, but tomorrow I am free all day! Whey-hey!  )

John


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## Benchwayze (12 Jan 2010)

Aled Dafis":2g18oecr said:


> Let me have a rummage through my "stash" I'm sure that I have plans for a Hayrake table from a magazine somewhere. Let's just hope that it wasn't "filed" in the last "reorganisation" I had a few months ago :roll:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Aled



Thanks Aled... Great help. 

Regards
John


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## jimi43 (12 Jan 2010)

Here is the full article...it has some detail in the finer parts but the pictures are not that big...hope this helps...

FULL HAY RAKE TABLE ARTICLE.

Thanks on the mahogany...can't wait to see the pictures!

I will do some more fettling tonight...I am on shift at 3pm tomorrow so no early start!

Cheers mate

Jim


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## Tony Spear (12 Jan 2010)

I love those butterfly dovetails in the top.

If he can sell that at over 3 grand what would an original by Gimson be worth! :shock:


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## tja (12 Jan 2010)

I take it you've seen the February 2009 issue of Popular woodworking, which features a 6-page article on a hayrake table by Don Weber. There's also a Sketchup model.
Some pictures of his work in progress.

Take


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## Modernist (13 Jan 2010)

Interesting the competence of the maker shows through clearly.

And another dropped and brazed up carriage makers plane!


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## Chris Knight (13 Jan 2010)

I have always loved the Gimson one. It obviously calls for skill and care in the making but the joinery is pretty straightforward in design terms I think.


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## woodbloke (13 Jan 2010)

I'd go for English oak in the first instance and European second...stay clear of that AO for a project like this as I think it deserves something better - Rob


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## Benchwayze (13 Jan 2010)

Right Folks, 

Such a lot to digest here. So the Hayrake design wasn't Barnsley's after all.  Small wonder I couldn't find what I was really looking for. I did find that photograph from Popular Woodworking but it was at an American site and the magazine wasn't mentioned! It looks to be more straightforward in its construction, but it's still gonna take some care. 

What I like most about the first design is the detail in the carving and the chamfering. I'm not too sure about the inlays around the edge. They give the table that 'zing', but they might come off as 'gaudy' in comparison to the colour of the oak. I also like the curved cross bar in the 'rake'. That takes away the need for four angled mortice and tenons where each end meets the diagonals. So I will incorporate that. 

The wide 45 deg chamfers worked on the inside of the legs of the larger table, also eliminate four more angled M&T joints, so I might incorporate that too. Not scared of the angled joints, but there's enough work here anyhow to keep me busy!  

Instead of butterfly inlays, on the top I thought of putting raised walnut inlays in the ends of the top. (A' la Matty!) A lot will depend on how dry I can get the timber. So ATM I am enjoying the planning. 

It's unfortunate that I don't carve well. Although maybe an acorn or two might be within my meagre stock of gouges! 

My thanks to everyone who has helped here, especially with drawings and pics. It snowed heavily here last night.  But as soon as I can, I am off to Whitmore's! 

Regards 
John


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## Benchwayze (13 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":3a5b5jht said:


> I'd go for English oak in the first instance and European second...stay clear of that AO for a project like this as I think it deserves something better - Rob



I agree Rob.. It was a daft question anyway! :lol: :lol: 
There really is no alternative unless it's Bog or Brown oak! 


John


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## paisawood (13 Jan 2010)

John,
I recall that I saw a Gimson Hayrake table a couple of years ago. I think it was in the Arts and Crafts section of the museum at Cheltenham although it may have been the V&A. It doesn't appear in Cheltenham's on-line catalogue but if you want to see, touch and feel one it would be worth ringing them up and asking if they have one. (Telephone 01242 237431 )

Good luck

Regards

David


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## Benchwayze (13 Jan 2010)

Hi David, 

Thanks for that info. 

I don't think I could travel to the 'Smoke' just yet, but Cheltenham isn't too far out of the way, if they have one of these tables. 

I am obliged for the info. 

Cheers. 
John


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## Tony Spear (14 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":1k8l5zqv said:


> Right Folks,
> 
> Such a lot to digest here. So the Hayrake design wasn't Barnsley's after all.  Small wonder I couldn't find what I was really looking for.
> Regards
> John



You may not have been as far out as you think!

After Edward Barnsley left the Cotswolds and and set up the Edward barnsley workshops in the early 1900's, Ernest Gimson and Sidney Barnsley carried on in the Daneway/Sapperton area for a further 20 years. Gimson was actually more interested in the design aspects and often used assistants for the actual manufacturing, whereas Sid. Barnsley was himself much more involved in making things. It's quite feasible therefore that pieces exist that were designed by Gimson (or Gimson and Barnsley) but were actually made by Barnsley.

There is a photograph of the "business end" of a hay-rake table made by Sid. Barnsley in:

"Arts and Crafts Furniture: from classic to contemporary"
by Kevin Rodel and Jonathon Binzen
Taunton Press c.2005

There's also a reproduction of the plans for such a table in the book (I know 'cos I sin it! :wink: ), but I don't remember who's design it was.

So there you go, Barnsley was right all along, just the wrong Barnsley!  

It's also possible that there is one of those tables at Kelmscott, but it's so long since I've been there that I really don't remember.

Edit to add: A lot of Gimson's later stuff at Daneway was actually made by Peter Waals.
Also, Gimsons last major project was the Library at Bedale's School and the table in the photo i referred to above is in that Library!

How the hell do I remember all this stuff? :shock:


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## Tony Spear (14 Jan 2010)

Found it!
Google Books is your friend!

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4PZ8 ... ys&f=false

Scroll to page 36.


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## MikeG. (14 Jan 2010)

What stikes me as just a little odd about this otherwise beautiful table is that the rails which meet the legs, the 135 degree ones, meet the leg just below the chamfer. In other words, they crash into a corner. Why wouldn't you extend the chamfer or raise the rail, such that the rails meet the leg at 90 degrees to a chamfer........ie full on the face of a chamfer? You would have to size the chamfer and the rail properly, and the leg might be octagonal as a result, but that would surely be visually more tidy than that awkward junction as per the photo?

Mike


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## woodbloke (14 Jan 2010)

'Gimson and the Barnsley's' by Mary Comino...a standard text IMO for anyone interested in the A&C movement. I bought the hardback version yonks ago when it was first published. Excellent read :wink: - Rob


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## Benchwayze (14 Jan 2010)

Hi Tony, 

First off, thanks for all the information. It's good of you to take this trouble. I had found one or two items, but my mix-up with the names led me astray. Clearly Tony, you remember this stuff a lot better than I! 

I am aware of the Barnsley/Gimson 'liaison' of course, and know about Sydney. All this was first learned at school. My woodwork teacher was a big fan of the A&C school. However, that was in the nineteen-fifties and other woodworking role-models have been discovered along the way! So it all spins around in there now! 

For my final exams, I made a small side table, 'in the style'. The only details I can recall, are the quarter-sawn oak, heavy 'wagon-chamfers' on the legs and some 'scoop' decoration done with the scribing-gouges, around the table edge. But definitely no hay-rake underneath! 8) 

The table was easy enough to make, but it did teach me the need for concentration and care. Sadly, the piece is no longer in the family. My sister 'gave it to charity' some time ago! As long as someone needed it, that's okay. 

My own love of the style is based on the fact that a piece made well, from good material is going to be around for a long time, given normal care. Also, the designs never seem out of place in contemporary settings. Simply, it's always a 'proper-job' . Of course working properly is necessary to carry it off. So despite the other 'role models' I've come across over the years, I am always drawn to the 'simplicity' of Arts and Crafts. 

So thanks again Tony. You've helped me enormously and I am grateful. 

I shall be putting that book on my pressie list, as I have a birthday coming up! 
 
Regards
John


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## Benchwayze (14 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":37rbq14v said:


> What stikes me as just a little odd about this otherwise beautiful table is that the rails which meet the legs, the 135 degree ones, meet the leg just below the chamfer. In other words, they crash into a corner. Why wouldn't you extend the chamfer or raise the rail, such that the rails meet the leg at 90 degrees to a chamfer........ie full on the face of a chamfer? You would have to size the chamfer and the rail properly, and the leg might be octagonal as a result, but that would surely be visually more tidy than that awkward junction as per the photo?
> 
> Mike


Hi Mike, 

If you look at the table made by Don Weber, (Taunton Press Site) you'll see he did exactly that. He worked a wide chamfer down the inside edge of the legs, so the tenon went in at 90 degrees. Weakens the leg I suppose, but strengthens the junction of the stretchers and the legs, as well as simplifying construction. And yes it is a beautiful table. 

If you go to the post by tja in this thread, you can link directly to a series of pictures showing Weber's WIP. 

Regards
John


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## Racers (14 Jan 2010)

Hi,

At the end of the Viking tool chest episode with Don Webber they show his Hay Rake table. 

I made a similar stretcher for my teak table 






I used honemade beech plywood in the stretcher joints for strenght.


Pete


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## Benchwayze (14 Jan 2010)

Now there's a functional table Pete, and it's well made. 

I like the solution you came up with for the stretchers. Also, where did you get the teak? Reclaimed? 

The last time I tried to source teak, for a garden seat, I was told it was illegal to import it unless it was in the form of ready-made furniture.

Regards
John


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## Racers (14 Jan 2010)

Hi, Johm

Thanks, it was built three of christmases ago and I did the chairs a year later.






All reclaimed teak (old bench tops) 






Pete


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## Benchwayze (14 Jan 2010)

Yes... Lovely stuff Pete. 

I have to make diners too. I saw a Green and Green design on Amazon which I quite like. I'd need to do more research, as the notes said the design was good, but the execution had suffered. It's just a case of whether or not the Green and Green design would sit with a Hayrake type table!

It seems your spouse is as tolerant as mine, when it comes to acclimatising timber! 8) 

Thanks Pete.
Regards
John


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## Tony Spear (14 Jan 2010)

Istuck up a post hereb earlier, but it doesn' seem to have appeared! Maybe one of the Mod's thought it was boring.

(Never let anybody else use your Computer unless you're looking over their shoulder - bit like your BU smoothers I suppose!).

Anyway BW: 

one of Ernest Barnsley's great jobs was what was known at the time as "the Last Great Manor House in England" built for the Biddulph family and called Rodmarton Manor. All the furniture was built at the same time by the "Cotswold School" It certainly involved Gimson, Sydnety Barnsley and Peter Waals, but I don't know if Ernest had any more to with it other than tha architecture.

The place is open to the public and has possibly the greatest collection of Arts and Crafts furniture ever made for one specific location that still exists:

http://www.rodmarton-manor.co.uBack in the 80's there was definitely a Hay-Rake table there.

Note; if you want to know why I have these bit of info it is down to the really mis-spent part of my Youth which involved finding out of the way Cotswold pubs in the pre-breatherlizer days and talking to the old fellers who'd lived and worked in all these places all of their lives. Funnily enough, for all the talk of "Artisan, Craftsman, Utilitarian" and all that stuff, I don't remember seeing a single piece of "Cotswold School" furniture in the Daneway or Tunnel House pubs, or any of the local cottages that I was able to visit!


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## Benchwayze (14 Jan 2010)

Hi Tony, 

Then you'll know about the 'Green Dragon', pub, that is chock full of 'The Mouseman's' furniture? I can't recall the village offhand, but a relative of my wife took us there, with deep hints about a surprise that I would enjoy! 

Boy was he right! The place was bulging with solid oak, adzed tables, complete with carved 'mouses' of course! 

I also had an email from Chetenham Museum today. There is a Hayrake table there, and if I make an appointment, I can also see the drawings for it, and a lot of other stuff made by these worthies! As soon as the Spring gets under way, I am off south! 

Thanks again. 
John


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## Tony Spear (15 Jan 2010)

That'll be the Green Dragon at Cowley. Kept in it's great days by a bloke called "Apple Williams". Never sure whether that wa s down to his face and complextion or the lethal Scrumpy he used to serve!

I understand it's now one of those Cotswold "foodie" type places' and I'll bet that you won't find anything of Robert Thompson's stuff in there nowadays. Probably went in the skip when they "refurbished" the place.

Actually, it's always seemed a bit odd to me that I don't remember ever seeing anything in the Daneway or the Tunnel House that was obviously from the "Cotswold School". "Artisan" furniture it may have been, but it wasn't made for Artisan users!

Bit of a rant here, but I don't believe that any of that lot were making working furniture for working people. They were amongstbthe first to understand "Marketing" and what it applied.

I once went to a dinner party in the Cotswold country and I sat on one of the legendary Gimson ladder back chairs and it was amongst the most uncumfortable couple of hours I,ve ever spent in my life (and that includes being concussed at Glos. All Blues! :shock: )


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## bugbear (15 Jan 2010)

jimi43":19j3eggk said:


> I take it you found this one John:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I prefer a simpler interpretation - the inlay in particular jars with (my notion of) Arts and Crafts simplicity.

The round stay in the hay-rake is lovely though, and unusual.

Here's my google search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe ... f&oq=&aqi=

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

Hi BB, 

I see what yu are getting at. I saw one of Gimson's display cabinets with this same inlay work all around the edge. It did look somewhat gaudy. 

On page 37 of F&C (Issue No. 162) there's a photograph of another Hayrake-table interpretation. Made by someone called Lataxe, it seems. That fits in with the idea of an A&C ‘country-piece', but I think it would cost a bit more than a country-piece! 

As Tony Spear suggested, maybe Gimson and Barnsley were more concerned with marketing to the well-heeled, than they were with providing local rustics with furniture! That doesn't stop me admiring the style, nor trying to make my version either, and after all, why should it? I couldn't afford a genuine piece, but at least I can have my own version!

Cheers

John


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## woodbloke (15 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":1if7a2fy said:


> Gimson and Barnsley were more concerned with marketing to the well-heeled, than they were with providing local rustics with furniture!
> John


This was the essence of their operation in the Cotswolds. The stuff they made was never intended for local consumption by ordinary folk...it was all intended for the London market, the 'gentry' and those who could afford it - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (15 Jan 2010)

If IKEA had been around in those days they could have made a killing selling to the ordinary folk :lol:


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

So I am inclined to think Rob. 

But I still want a Hayrake Table for myself. Therefore it's fortunate that, if the 'giftie' grants me the time, I can make one! I hope...  

Regards
John


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## bugbear (15 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":218i0j7c said:


> Benchwayze":218i0j7c said:
> 
> 
> > Gimson and Barnsley were more concerned with marketing to the well-heeled, than they were with providing local rustics with furniture!
> ...



A bit "faux-pauvre" Marie Antoinette, then?

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

It's possible BB. But I question the attribution of that saying to a French person.

It always struck me as being a somewhat British idea to make that comparison between bread and cake. 

Unless the French also ate bread and cake for tea! 
I dunno!

John :lol:


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## frugal (15 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":1367q5xl said:


> It always struck me as being a somewhat British idea to make that comparison between bread and cake.
> 
> Unless the French also ate bread and cake for tea!
> I dunno!



I had always assumed that the quote was meant to highlight the point that the nobility were so far removed from the general populous that they did not realise that if the poor could not afford bread that they were also not able to afford cake.


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## jimi43 (15 Jan 2010)

> prefer a simpler interpretation - the inlay in particular jars with (my notion of) Arts and Crafts simplicity.



1000+

Me too...and I am not all that keen on the artsy fartsy scrolls on the table top supports. I was however, struck by the beauty of the hayrake stretchers....

Without doubt, this design originates and therefore looks most at home in, the rustic country designs. I think that inlay should stay more with the dainty polished mahogany furniture of the estate homes and city mansions.

Some great history being uncovered in this thread though...I have admired the designs but never understood the history. I am enjoying that part immensely.

Jim


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## yetloh (15 Jan 2010)

The Edward Barnsley Workshop is a registered charity and I have heard that they are prepared to make available copies of Barnsley's plans for historic pieces. Don't know if this is true but it would be worth giving them a call - you could hardly do better than work from those. 

Jim


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

yetloh":i4h9xpbg said:


> The Edward Barnsley Workshop is a registered charity and I have heard that they are prepared to make available copies of Barnsley's plans for historic pieces. Don't know if this is true but it would be worth giving them a call - you could hardly do better than work from those.
> 
> Jim



That's very true... The secret is though Jim, the only drawings I ever work from are done on a scrap of A4, at the largest. Not that I can't read a drawing. Still, it will be a departure for me, and it might make me realise how much I don't know. I think I said earlier, those stretchers are going to demand a full size layout on MDF anyhow! I can get around some of the angled M&Ts, with design alterations, but I can't lose all of them! 

There is a CD available from Cheltenham Museum, for £19.99 btw, with drawing and other info included. 
 

John


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

frugal":r6asrzzm said:


> Benchwayze":r6asrzzm said:
> 
> 
> > It always struck me as being a somewhat British idea to make that comparison between bread and cake.
> ...



That's probably true Frugal. 

It's difficult to get across what I mean. To me there is just something very British, about the so-called wit. To me it is a saracstic remark, and that's what makes it sound more British in origin than French. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake

That might help! But it still sounds like a sarcastic translation by a British Biographer or Historian. 

John


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## frugal (15 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":1xtr5em2 said:


> frugal":1xtr5em2 said:
> 
> 
> > I had always assumed that the quote was meant to highlight the point that the nobility were so far removed from the general populous that they did not realise that if the poor could not afford bread that they were also not able to afford cake.
> ...



It has certainly always been used as a very British put down of the French, along with the constant referrals to a lack of French military vistories (convieniently ignoring the fact that northern France and southern England changed hands more often than one of Wizers tools  )


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

> It has certainly always been used as a very British put down of the French, along with the constant referrals to a lack of French military vistories (convieniently ignoring the fact that northern France and southern England changed hands more often than one of Wizers tools  )



:lol:


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## bugbear (15 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":23snbzh5 said:


> It's possible BB. But I question the attribution of that saying to a French person.
> 
> It always struck me as being a somewhat British idea to make that comparison between bread and cake.
> 
> ...



I meant the whole over-the-top farm she had built so she could be a milkmaid, not the (dubious) bread/cake quote!

(googly) It was called "Petit Hameau"

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

I'm lost BB. 

I was amused by your reference to one of Wizer's tools! 

Anyway, from what I can make of her, she lost her head long before she went up those steps to the block! 

John


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## Charlie Stanford (15 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":3ka8ne2z said:


> Folks,
> 
> I have scoured Google and Yahoo for some meaningful articles on the Barnsley style Hay-rake Table. I have found one or two photographs, but they are difficult to interpret. I would buy a book I have seen on Barnsley and his workshop, but the SWIMBO Radar has just been serviced and it's working at fever pitch!
> 
> ...



There is a how-to-build it article in the Fine Woodworking archive.

I may be able to scan the article to a PDF and email it to you. I'll check it out over the weekend.


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## JR (15 Jan 2010)

Hi
The Barnsley workshop does not have any full size hayrake drawings.
Your best bet is Cheltenham or Bedales School library where there are lots.
Gimson and particularly Waals his foreman designed the best examples.
Even better is to see one in the flesh.
Best of luck


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## Benchwayze (15 Jan 2010)

Thanks Charlie, JR. 

I have been in touch with Cheltenham, and have to arrange a visit to see some drawings. The weather is dictating at the moment. 

I am obliged for the help. 

I also have to work out how to do WIP shots in my poky workshop too!  

John


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## Max Power (14 Jan 2015)

Does anyone know if this was ever made ?


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## Benchwayze (14 Jan 2015)

Max. 

It's under construction (I have seasoned the timber!) Things have stuttered to a halt, as I am caring for the Missus for a while. I just can't get long enough at the bench to make anything big. 

There is a good video available on the Fine Woodworking site, but you have to subscribe to the site to watch it. A preview is on the YouTube I believe. 
HTH 
John


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