# Kreg Pocket hole jigs



## walt.wales (18 Nov 2018)

hi All,
as new member to UKW just thought i'd say hello and ask a question: 
has anyone had experience of the Kreg KJMICRODGB Micro-Pocket Drill Guide, as used for 1/2" x 1" stock? 
i'm aware that there is a debate in woodworking circles about the use of pocket hole joinery but for my current needs this method suits perfectly. What i would like to know is if anyone here has experience of this particular jig for joining small stock especially 1/2" ply? [i've read old reviews on the Kreg site and they raise some reservations]
Many thanks & regards,
waltinwales


----------



## Mike Jordan (18 Nov 2018)

Hi
There is no controversy in the minds of competent woodworkers regarding the use of pocket hole jigs of any brand. They are largely useless, just a catch penny aimed at the wallets of the inexperienced. They try to make it look as if quality joints can be made with no skill of any kind. Pocket screwing can be done using a gouge, chisel, and drill. All in a matter of minutes. Uses for which the method is really suited are very rare. It would be better to tell the forum members what joint you wish to achieve and allowing them to advise you. There are lots of competent woodworkers on this site at all levels of expertise. The woodworking world has quite a few makers of "wonder tools "that are worthless and only remove cash from the unwary..
Mike.


----------



## Cordy (18 Nov 2018)

Walt, welcome to the forum
Not familiar myself with micro kreg
My own Kreg is similar to THIS
Being a novice woodworker I find it very useful indeed

This chair was made using all Kreg p/h joinery except for the coach-bolts


----------



## walt.wales (18 Nov 2018)

hi Cordy,
thanks for the reply & welcome.
Thank you too for the photo of the garden chair: i have to say, its a fine looking piece and if youre getting results like this then pocket hole jointing cant be all bad!
As a sculptor i use whatever process/technology it takes to get the desired result. i've cut my fair share of mortice and tenon & dovetails over the years but for something's a quick and simple method is definitely the order of the day. For this current project i'm looking to join 1/2" x 1" ply which will be painted thereafter, so a strong joint is all that is necessary, hence my asking about the Kreg micro jig.
All the best,
waltinwales


----------



## Noel (19 Nov 2018)

Hi Walt.
If you think a pocket hole jig will serve your purposes get one. They are a wonderful versatile method of joining timber. Quick, easy to use and relatively inexpensive. One point I would mention is try and get one with the clamp on the "work" side rather than having to reach over the work piece to secure the board. It's just a lot easier. Like this:


----------



## novocaine (19 Nov 2018)

Welcome along. 

you can insert all of the words about real wood working etc. here. 

now for the bit that matters. I use a single hole mini jig occasionally when I need to use pocket holes. It's dirt cheap (think I paid a tenner for it), easy to use and after a few uses becomes incredible quick (I marked the side of the guide and the bit for the different positions and have a little block for the other position). the 3 hole unit looks good but really isn't needed, save your pennies and buy the single one. I use a quick clamp with it too, saves time.

it's a solution to a problem, the all singing all dancing one really isn't needed unless you are doing production runs with it.


----------



## AES (19 Nov 2018)

Hi Walt, and welcome.

I'm by no means an experienced wood worker, but wish I had known about the Kreg pocket hole jig before I started a current project (a kid's pedal car made largely out of birch ply).

I now have the Kreg K4 (NOT the mini jig) and while I wouldn't use for everything (not by a long chalk) IMO it definitely DOES have a place in the armoury.

It's quick and easy to use and very well made indeed - should last a life time. If the mini jig is as good, then I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it - like you, I'm not against modern ideas and clever jigs to make life easier.

Normally my experience of this Forum is that people are overwhelmingly helpful here, and apart from talking about sharpening (when things do tend to get a bit heated!), my experience is that it's VERY unusual to get an opinion about anything that is so vehemently dismissive as that expressed by Mike Jordan above.

Though he is quite correct in saying that if you need help to make any specific joint, you'll get help (in spades) if you ask for it here, IMO he is also completely incorrect to dismiss this particular tool as, QUOTE: largely useless, just a catch penny aimed at the wallets of the inexperienced. UNQUOTE.

The above is merely his opinion - and it seems a somewhat biased opinion to boot - I wonder if he's even ever tried one? - and as you've seen from the responses so far (and no doubt more to come) his opinion of the pocket hole jig is very much in the minority.

As I say, I haven't tried the mini jig, but if it's as good as my K4 I'd say go for it mate. Just don't expect it to do EVERY job.

Welcome, and best of luck.


----------



## AES (19 Nov 2018)

Hi Walt, and welcome.

I'm by no means an experienced wood worker, but wish I had known about the Kreg pocket hole jig before I started a current project (a kid's pedal car made largely out of birch ply).

I now have the Kreg K4 (NOT the mini jig) and while I wouldn't use for everything (not by a long chalk) IMO it definitely DOES have a place in the armoury.

It's quick and easy to use and very well made indeed - should last a life time. If the mini jig is as good, then I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it - like you, I'm not against modern ideas and clever jigs to make life easier.

Normally my experience of this Forum is that people are overwhelmingly helpful here, and apart from talking about sharpening (when things do tend to get a bit heated!), my experience is that it's VERY unusual to get an opinion about anything that is so vehemently dismissive as that expressed by Mike Jordan above.

Though he is quite correct in saying that if you need help to make any specific joint, you'll get help (in spades) if you ask for it here, IMO he is also completely incorrect to dismiss this particular tool as:


> largely useless, just a catch penny aimed at the wallets of the inexperienced



The above is merely his opinion - and it seems a somewhat biased opinion to boot - I wonder if he's even ever tried one? - and as you've seen from the responses so far (and no doubt more to come) his opinion of the pocket hole jig is very much in the minority.

As I say, I haven't tried the mini jig, but if it's as good as my K4 I'd say go for it mate. Just don't expect it to do EVERY job.

Welcome, and best of luck.


----------



## porker (19 Nov 2018)

I agree with novocaine above and use the Kreg mini jig a lot and it's all I need. I have a fancier jig but never use it. I know there are woodworkers who dismiss pocket holes but there are plenty who use them and they work for me. I only really use mine on 18mm board and slightly bigger for carcasses and face frames. I have used dowels and biscuit joints too but as long as you clamp the pieces firmly before driving the screws you have a joint that holds itself together without further clamping. I usually glue mine as well although it is questionable whether this makes the joint stronger.


----------



## Mike Jordan (19 Nov 2018)

Hi Walt 
My apologies for failing to welcome you before holding forth on my prejudice against the pocket hole jig, also for not at least suggesting an alternative method. The cost of the jig takes you quite a way towards the cost of a power router which can make pocket holes in a much better way in my opinion. I have a couple of methods in mind but it will be much easier to make a couple of joints tomorrow and take a photo or two to show the advantages.
Mike.


----------



## worn thumbs (19 Nov 2018)

I had an e-mail offering such a jig as a "Black Friday" promotion.Clearly somebody needed to move some stock off the shelves.


----------



## Pord (19 Nov 2018)

I love pocket holes. So damn easy and efficient. I use the Kreg single hole jig, which is portable and quick. Stick it in your pocket and use it with a speed clamp anywhere in or out the workshop. No need for the fancy Kreg screws, I use standard screws and an appropriate clutch setting on my screwdrill. 

I've built everything from a Paulk workbench to sheds to a big sliding workshop door with mine. The workbench was 12mm ply and the pocket holes worked brilliantly.

Can't recommend it highly enough.


----------



## novocaine (20 Nov 2018)

I needed to do a temporary fix to the bottom of the back door on our new house when we moved it as the previous owner had cut 20mm of it and it was nearly above the threshold (seriously, I don't get some people). I didn't have the time nor the money to replace the door or remove it from service. the pocket hole jig was perfect to attach a strip of ash across the bottom of the door with a dash of glue for good measure. a quick spin of a stick in a dowel plate and the holes were filled in and painted over with no one the wiser. the back door is going soon, it's been a temporary fix for nearly 5 years, nothing is more permanent that a temporary fix that works. 

I've also used it to pull a badly fitted door frame together (Garage door), quickly knock up a window frame when some buttocks tried to break in by pulling the rather rotten frame away (only to find a set of steel bars set in to the concrete behind the obscured window), knock up a number of quick cabinet carcasses for a multitude of places, attached shelves to walls with hidden fixings the list goes on. yes I can make a pocket hole with a drill and it will be acceptable and do the job, but it takes as long as with the jig and it's perfect and identical every time, which is what a jig is for. 

buy the single, if you like it and decide to upgrade, you are only out a tenner, if you hate it and it gets buried in the pile of "waste of money, for the inexperienced" tools. it's a tenner, a router with a suitable bit and the various attachments is going to set you back quite a bit more, isn't going to fit in your pocket and isn't going to be able to be used in situ when you "just need to pull up a joint". 

Sorry mike, but you're wrong on this one, this is the most efficient way of make a perfect pocket hole, yes there are other ways, but this beats them all in at least one way depending on the method, it's neater than just drilling it, it's cheaper than a router and it's more mobile than mortiser, I understand why you see it as a waste and not "proper" woodwork, but it does serve and purpose. 

also, don't bother with the real screws, put a washer round your normal countersunk screw to turn it in to a flat head that doesn't bind as it contacts the bore (think I pay 2 quid for 500 3x7mm washers.


----------



## Mike Jordan (20 Nov 2018)

As promised these are photos of alternative methods of pocket screwing, I've made no secret of the fact that I regard these as second rate fixing methods whether made by jig or by hand, but they are useful on rare occasions.


----------



## Mike Jordan (20 Nov 2018)

Ive managed to remove some text from the last post. The top shot is just to prove that I do make use of jigs and templates ( that's only about a third of them) Most are labelled with the cutter size and guide bush details to avoid having to work it out each time. The bottom shot has the standard pocket screw joint on the left together with the chisel and incannel gouge used to make it. The centre one has a tongue and groove to locate it and stop the slide that tends to occur as the screws are tightened. On the right the recesses have been cut with a 12mm router bit.
The jigs may have a following but I still say that a long drill and a shop made jig will do the job just as well if you rate this as a fixing method.
Mike.


----------



## whiskywill (20 Nov 2018)

Mike Jordan":20untr9o said:


> a power router which can make pocket holes in a much better way i



I am curious. :? How do you cut pocket holes with a router?


----------



## Mike Jordan (21 Nov 2018)

If you go back a couple of posts there is a photo showing the method, it beats £85 for a jig.
Mike.


----------



## AES (21 Nov 2018)

I'm also interested in the router method Mike. Is it hand held or have you made a jig to hold the machine at an angle?

Also, NOT nit picking, 'onhest, but going back to your earlier pix, it seems some of those pocket holes have been cut/opened up with a gouge - in fact I think there's a gouge in one of the pix. If so, one small disadvantage of that method, as opposed to using the Kreg jig (I can't talk about any others) is the fact that with the Kreg you end up with a completely circular hole which is therefore very easy to full with a scrap of dowel (cut off and sanded flush afterwards of course).

With the gouge method the hole seems not only bigger but also somewhat elliptical, meaning, I guess, filling with a paste filler of some sort, no?

I do agree that my Kreg K4 was not cheap (I forget how much, but you're in about the right ballpark I think), BUT the price did include a large selection of high quality screws as well as the drill, driver bit, depth stop, etc. And the quality of all the stuff in the kit really is first class, so as I said to Walt in my original post, IMO will last an honest lifetime.


----------



## Mike Jordan (21 Nov 2018)

Hi AES
The router grooves are of equal depth throughout and were made using the normal router fence.
The hand made pockets are not normally filled in any way and don't need to look pretty since these were always considered to be out of sight fixings.
The use of special screws and special plugs to fill the holes is all part of the same money spinner as I see it.
If you wish to fill the holes, you could use a Forster bit in place of the router grooves and use the ready made pellets to fill them. Spending the money on a router might encourage the use of proper joints, the tongue and groove shown being a good example. ( I cheated and used the cross cut saw)
Mike.


----------



## AES (21 Nov 2018)

OK, thanks, understood. BTW, at the time I started the pedal car project I referred to in my first post here I didn't have a router either!


----------



## OscarG (21 Nov 2018)

Another vote here for the Kreg jig. I bought a K4 one earlier this year, only used it for "shop" furniture but find it's excellent.

It's bit fiddly for right-angle joins, you need that right-angle clamp they make, keep meaning to get it.

For simple joins that don't need to be the prettiest I think it's a great bit of kit.


----------



## AES (21 Nov 2018)

I also got a couple of those Kreg right angle clamps. Again not cheap, but well made, and comlete with a "Mole grips-type" adjuster, and can (is actually) used for many other jobs in the shop. I don't regret buying them - and my wallet does NOT "runneth over"! 

Edit for P.S. My clamps are not those "Kreg specials" with the "spike" at one end to fit into a pocket hole while doing right angles - mine just have a flat & a right angle pad on each side, hence their use for many other clamping jobs. But they also work OK on "normal" right angles. It is BTW, a pity for me that Kreg have no dealers in Switzerland. I use either Germany or UK, and stuff like clamps are of course heavy for postage costs. But once bought, the high postage cost soon fades into memory, and you don't need millions of them (or I don't anyway). Like the jig, they should last a lifetime.


----------



## Mike Jordan (21 Nov 2018)

The power router must be the most important advance for the small joinery business since I started as an apprentice. The first one I got to use was a one horsepower machine from a company called Centec. The boss of the firm payed £100 for it. Joiners were payed £12.10 a week then so eight weeks pay! Stair string trenching payed for it in no time, prior to the hand held router, strings were trenched by hand and took hours of tedious work. Today's prices must make routers the the Best Buy ever. Expensive jigs are available all manner of jobs these days, hinge sinking, lock fitting, etc. In most instances ten minutes and a bit of scrap timber will work just as well .



Stair trenching jig currently selling at well over £100. And hinge sinking jig.
Mike.


----------



## Pord (21 Nov 2018)

AES, I absolutely understand your cynicism to the apparent money-spinning nature of the Kreg PH jig - special and expensive screws, plugs, clamps etc. But I have made countless pocket holes with nothing other than a Kreg mini jig, which came with the bit and cost £17. As I said before, I only use standard wood screws (with a long screwdrill bit) and a bog standard speed clamp (or sash clamp for bigger pieces). 

In the time to set up a router, or hand carve pocket holes, I can have numerous consistent pocket holes cut and screwed.

Not trying to convert you, just want to let people know that all the Kreg add-ons are simply not necessary.


----------



## OscarG (21 Nov 2018)

When you say "standard wood screws" do you mean pan-head types or what I would could "normal" i.e. tapered counter-sunk type screws?


----------



## AES (21 Nov 2018)

I obviously did not make myself clear Pord, sorry.

NIL cynicism on the Kreg jig here from me, on the contrary! I'm very pleased with my K4, but if I'd have known of the existence of the mini Kreg when I bought my K4 I would probably have bought the mini instead.

Overall though I consider the K4 complete kit as good value for money (particularly in view of its likely longevity) so IMO, though not cheap it certainly was value for money. And BTW, I definitely said "use scraps of dowel" when referring to filling holes (when necessary) above. IMO the Kreg special plugs really are "taking the mickey" (price wise).

But sorry if I wasn't clear before.

Edit for P.S. Re screws. I do NOT agree with the use of "normal" screws if "normal" means countersunk head screws - not even with washers. Though the Kreg screws are nice (apart from their cost!) personally I only use round head (or pan head) screws, paying attention to coarse or fine pitch, according to the wood type (as per the leaflet that came with the Kreg kit). To those screws, which of course are flat under the head, not angled as countersunk head screws are, I ALWAYS add suitable washers (tight push fit into the hole). Such screws, plus washers, still work out cheaper than Kreg's special screws, AND are much easier to get hold of here.


----------



## novocaine (21 Nov 2018)

I stick a washer on the back of a countersink screw Oscar. think I paid a quid for 500.


----------



## Pord (21 Nov 2018)

Understood, AES! No need to apologise.

Yes, I use standard screws (the countersink type) with no washer. Works perfectly fine, even in the 12mm ply I used to build my Paulk workbench.


----------



## Benchwayze (23 Nov 2018)

Mike Jordan":ngu7idqk said:


> Hi
> There is no controversy in the minds of competent woodworkers regarding the use of pocket hole jigs of any brand. They are largely useless, just a catch penny aimed at the wallets of the inexperienced. They try to make it look as if quality joints can be made with no skill of any kind. Pocket screwing can be done using a gouge, chisel, and drill. All in a matter of minutes. Uses for which the method is really suited are very rare. It would be better to tell the forum members what joint you wish to achieve and allowing them to advise you. There are lots of competent woodworkers on this site at all levels of expertise. The woodworking world has quite a few makers of "wonder tools "that are worthless and only remove cash from the unwary..
> Mike.



Mike... 

In the nineteen-sixties, I made a 6 foot sideboard from veneered block-board. My skills weren't so good then. My tools consisted of hand tools only (I even had to lay the sheets down in my back yard on 2x2s, and cut them out, on my knees with a tenon saw. I literally had just the basics. I assembled the carcass on an idigbo frame, all put together using pocket holes (NOT with a jig, because for home use, such things were unknown then.) 

So I drilled angled holes with my Stanley hand drill and put the frame together that way. The job held together until about two years ago, when I finally decided the draw-runners had worn so much it wasn't worth repairing them. The construction was otherwise solid, and I cut my hand-dovetailing teeth on the four drawers too. (It was evident which drawers I made first and last!) I don't need to use a pocket hole jig, but I do now and again. Good for man-made boards on table tops, using screws that can move a little. The OP could make one at home, from a small piece of oak, or other true hard wood. Yes the small jig works quite well, and I certainly wouldn't discourage any one using one. If that's all one can do at present then more power to the elbow. As you learn you'll probably outgrow the jig, but they are still a useful tool for quick utility jobs. (I always back them up with glue when I do use them mind.) I am not doing much at all now, but I still have convenience tools and use them. Like the Domino. :ho2 So I wouldn't say PHJs are 'largely useless.' Expensive for what they are, but they have a place; depends on what you make and how much experience you have. 

If the jig starts you woodworking, that's the main thing. If you are at all interested, as most of us are, you will seek to learn. And enjoy the journey. I have enjoyed my journey for sure. 

Regards 

John


----------



## Mike Jordan (23 Nov 2018)

Hi John
I think that we must agree to disagree about the jig but certainly not about the process of constantly learning about woodworking. As mentioned I would encourage anyone just starting out to invest in a power router rather than a gadget that guides you to drilling a hole. As shown above the router will allow another method of fitting pocket screws and also make scores of other tasks possible as well.
Some time ago my son, who is also an apprentice trained woodworker, purchased a good quality biscuit jointer on the grounds that it would prove useful. We tried it out and made a few practise joints and I knocked out a carrying case to store it together with the consumables required.
It's been stored in various places in the workshop and is currently up in the loft above,
neither of us has used it at all. The truth is that there is always a quicker, more appropriate method of doing the job using my standard machines. I think it's been about ten years now and it looks unlikely that we will ever wear it out!
On the other hand I visited the workshop of a fellow worker over thirty years back and found him fitting hinges on window lights using a battery screwdriver and cross head screws. There was a certain amount of ribbing, and enquiries about what was stopping him using a pump screwdriver like the rest of us. In a few weeks I was using the same gear, battery power now rules drilling and screw driving and my pump screwdriver is now a curiosity.
Regards
Mike.


----------



## Lonsdale73 (28 Apr 2019)

Something pocket holes build really well - especially for beginners - is confidence. I'd love to be able to cut perfect dovetails or mortice and tenon jobs but for the most part the object is not mastering an art but making something I have an immediate need for. 

One of the first things I bought for my workshop was a 'heavy duty' workbench. HD it most certainly wasn't but by using pocket holes I was able to beef it up considerably. That gave me the confidence to try building my own bench from scratch which was far more robust than the bought one. Next one was better still and I'm hoping the one I'm working on now will be better again.

A lot of the American woodworkers on youtube make extensive use of pocket holes - April Wilkerson appears to have made a career out of it! - and while purists might argue it's not woodworking there's no denying it can be effective.


----------



## thomashenry (29 Apr 2019)

I bought the Kreg R3 a few years ago for £30. Used it to build my entire kitchen. I was a beginner at the time and it was ideal. These days I've moved onto real joinery, but there's no doubt it has a place.


----------



## Benchwayze (30 Apr 2019)

I've never used the small pocket-hole jig, but I believe it works in much the same way as the normal jig. There is also a larger model for heavy joinery, so someone must have confidence in the method. 

For home use, in certain circumstances, it's a good solution, so if you think it will serve for what you want, then buy one. For functional, serviceable items it's as valid ad Dominos or dowels. 
If you want to use trad methods, then the existence of pocket hole screws shouldn't bother you. 

The technique has been around for decades; I recall a kitchen table at home (1940s) that had the top fixed by pocket-hole screws. It was utility furniture, so I would say they were machine made holes! (As opposed to a gouge mallet and drill.) 

Good Luck 

John (hammer)


----------



## Eric The Viking (1 May 2019)

Kreg's added value was putting a system together, I think, meaning a well-thought-out jig, machined drill for the purpose, and sensible selection of woodscrews. If I use it and follow the instructions regarding settings for stock thickness, etc, I can be pretty sure the joint will be as strong as it can be.

But that's the point, too: I think they might stretch the idea beyond sensible use. "You can" doesn't mean "you should" do some of the things advocated. There are a lot of tests out there that consistently show pocket holes are weaker than other sorts of joinery, and I'd stay away from using them as load-bearing components, as screws will loosen over time. 

That said, I find my K4 kit jolly useful. In things like face frames and fitted cabinets, although the screws are part of the structure, they're not massively load bearing, which is fine.


----------



## Benchwayze (1 May 2019)

Quite agree Eric. You can just means you can! 

My 'go-to' method for face frames and utility doors used to be the Woden dowelling Jig. I tried to convert mine to metric, in the 70s, but it was a failure and the casting broke, reducing its use to a single dowel; which meant moving the jig to get a two-dowel joint. 

I have since managed to find a used replacement, and still use it for quick doors in pine or poplar. 
It works as it always has done, perfectly. A strong, accurate jig that is all you'd ever need for the purpose. Once you mark the position of the joints you want, you can make a four or even six-dowel joint in a wide rail, just by moving the jig along the rail. You can also use the jig for aligning continuous 'rubbed' joints for table tops etc. I found I used mainly the 3/8" size dowels, but the jig has sets of bushes for joints from 1/4"up to 3/8"; (or was it 1/2"?) Anyhow it's the best dowelling jig I ever used and it didn't 'creep', as the Record jig was wont to do.


The problem today is finding 3/8" dowels, so I bought a dowel plate, and just reduce metric dowels to fit. All I need now is a supplier that will sell dowels by the 1000! Then I might just have enough to last me out! :lol: 

If anyone is interested :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... g&_sacat=0

Beware: The unboxed jig looks like it is missing the hardened steel bushes. Not much good without them

John (hammer)


----------



## AES (1 May 2019)

I must say that used "sensibly", I find my Kreg K4 both invaluable and very well made. I wish I had known about these things sooner, when building up the MG Midget kids pedal car project (see "Longest Ever ...... ?" write up now in progress in the Project section here).

But I do dislike the Kreg screws (both in terms of price and - here anyway - relatively poor availability) but unlike some other members here I have never tried the idea of using a "normal" CS or RH screw plus washer.

I'm not so sure (despite tests I've seen) that Kreg joints are weaker than, say, dowel joints, but to me the idea of substituting normal screws with the proper screw is just a poor and potentially weaker "engineering" solution, sorry. Perhaps these tests showing weaker joints didn't use the proper screws? Dunno. 

The other thing I don't like about Kreg's own screws is those "stupid" Robertson square drive heads. They cam out FAR too easily (even with the official Kreg driver bit). I know Eric (the Viking) likes these, and Eric, I've seen you post before that these (silly IMO) heads are found in aviation. I do NOT want to start a "fight" here, but must say that in my whole aviation career (started 1961, ended Dec 2014), throughout that time I've never seen a square drive screw/bolt head on any aeroplane. But all my work has been with military or "big" aircraft, never with small, GA (sports/private) machines, so perhaps they appear there? Dunno.

Anyway, thread drift, sorry. IMO, used for its proper purpose, I rate my K4 highly, and as opposed to using a CS screw and having to fill the depression afterwards (for an invisible joint) the pocket hole idea of a piece of dowel glued into the hole then cut off flush is IMO a definite plus. (But I would NOT pay Kreg's prices for their own plugs)!


----------



## Lonsdale73 (1 May 2019)

AES":2gknzedx said:



> But I do dislike the Kreg screws (both in terms of price and - here anyway - relatively poor availability)



I have loads of genuine Kreg screws going spare (and cheap!). I'd need to doublecheck but I'm sure they can be used with a pozi drive bit.


----------



## AES (1 May 2019)

Thanks Lonsdale, I did buy a couple of hundred from you (but haven't looked to see what drive the heads have - I don't use my K4 all that much). But if they're pozi, then IMO, coupled with your sensible prices they'd been an even better buy than I thought!

Cheers


----------



## sammy.se (1 May 2019)

Does anybody use glue, dowels or biscuits for alignment, then pocket holes to hold it together? or is that just pointless?


----------



## Benchwayze (1 May 2019)

I would never need screws of any sort with the dowel joints I used to make with the aforementioned Woden dowelling jig. In fact when I finally get around to new kitchen cabinets , I am going to use my trusty Woden jig again for the doors.

John (hammer)


----------



## Cordy (1 May 2019)

> Does anybody use glue, dowels or biscuits for alignment, then pocket holes to hold it together? or is that just pointless?



For my latest Adirondack chair, I am using Cascamite glue with the Kreg P/H system

To plug the pockets I buy 9.5 mm wooden dowels similar to THESE and cut them to length on the bandsaw; then clean up with a pull saw
Works out quite economical 
There is a youtube somewhere showing the dowel pullsaw system plugging the pockets

Edit
..and here is The Video


----------



## Benchwayze (1 May 2019)

I would love an adirondack chair. The big problem is once I sat in one I would have a hell of a job getting back to my feet.

John (hammer) :mrgreen:


----------



## Lonsdale73 (1 May 2019)

AES":3l627qyw said:


> Thanks Lonsdale, I did buy a couple of hundred from you (but haven't looked to see what drive the heads have - I don't use my K4 all that much). But if they're pozi, then IMO, coupled with your sensible prices they'd been an even better buy than I thought!
> 
> Cheers


Ah yeah, thought the name was familiar. Sadly, the 32mm ones you bought are R2/S2/Square hole. the 25mm ones will definitely work wth PZ2, I checked.


----------



## AES (1 May 2019)

Ok mate, thanks. I haven't even unpacked them yet! Too busy on the "Longest Project ..... " series of posts (AND with finishing the project itself)! Good news that at least one size have Pozi drive heads though - I can certainly "manage" with the Robertson square drives, but as said, I'm not a fan of them.


----------



## Benchwayze (1 May 2019)

If you have a Leigh dovetail jig, you have a hand driven Square Drive screwdriver that will fit the kreg screws. In the past I have used one to cinch down kreg screws by hand; when a power drill was too big.

John


----------



## AES (1 May 2019)

Thanks benchwayze, I have something similar (I think - a T-handled hand driver that will take many different bits, including the Kreg square drive).

But it's not that they "can't" be driven nicely, it's just that even if you're dead square above the screw and use plenty of down-force, I find that the square drive cam out a bit too easily, especially if compared to Pozi, or even better, to Torx - after all, the torque (sorry) is, in the end, only being delivered through the 4 corners of a square. As you suggest, a particular problem with power driving.

Robertson's are NOT (IMO) a brilliant piece of design, on the contrary, and with (probably) even less actual drive area than you get with an old-fashioned slotted head screw (IF you use the right screwdriver)!

But like I said, it's probably a personal thing with just me.


----------



## Benchwayze (1 May 2019)

Hi AES, 

The job I needed the hand driver for was a case for Blu-ray discs. I could have oriented the case differently, yes but I wanted the holes on the inside, and preferred the ends inside the top and bottom. which meant no room for a power drill. So I fixed the screws with the hand driver; after all it was just 8 screws. 

(Also, if I use ordinary screws, I happen to have a few hundred small washers that just fit and I use those to give the screw head something to bed against. 

HTH 

John (hammer)


----------



## memzey (2 May 2019)

I don’t have the Kreg jig but on the UJK one that Axminster sell (very good quality bit of kit IMHO) all the screws are torx drive with a pan head. They hold and drive extremely well although as I’ve never used the Robertson ones to compare them to I can’t assess which works best.


----------



## Eric The Viking (2 May 2019)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

@AES: I'm not sure who told me about Roberstson screw heads being used in aircraft - if I am perpetuating an urban (workshop) myth, I apologise. I've looked at the Wikipedia pages and there are references to time saved on production lines by using Robertson screws (Henry Ford liked them, apparently), but nothing about aircraft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... #Robertson

I have to say though, that I have never, ever had one cam out - quite the opposite: they seem to work better than any of the alternatives, except possibly Allen heads. I have, however seen some cheap "square drive" driver bits that are _not_ the Robertson form. So those won't mate properly with Robertson screws and may be the reason for the issue. It's the same with cheap Pozidriv and Phillips drivers (and screws): loose tolerances always cause problems.






As you can see above, the shape of the Robertson screw head and driver is a double-tapered 4-sided pyramid with a blunt tip. You can use them with the driver slightly off-axis, but on-axis I find the shape acts like a Morse taper and the screw fits snugly on the end of the driver. Phillips screws do this too, but nowhere nearly as well. This taper is really handy for driving pocket hole screws upwards, or into awkward spots - sometimes you can put the screws in first, but sometimes you can't (because the heads stick out). there are now a couple of variants used in engineering, the double-square and triple-square, with eight and twelve corners respectively. Tellingly, both keep the Robertson taper (if I correctly understand the Wikipedia entry), and can be used with Robertson drivers (although this may not be wise as they are intended for high-torque applications).

Other candidates for best system would be Allen heads - they get my #2 slot - and Torx. 

The trouble with Torx is the geometry for countersunk screws: the "blades" of the screwdriver form stick out. In cross-section you are making a rectangular hole in a triangle. You can't make that hole too deep, or the deep corners will break out of the sides of the countersink. Even if they don't actually break through they could weaken the head of the screw considerably. So either you have a shallow hole, or your driver needs to be narrower to fit in the available metal of the screwhead. Torx screws for retail sale usually have a driver size that's too big (T25), and too shallow (to stop the screw head snapping). So they don't stay on the driver... 

... I find this a right PITA, as they also cause the driver bits to wear too fast right at the end, so the fit becomes looser and the bit eventually snaps. I used to be able to get Torx screws with a T20 head - these were far better, both in fit on the driver and wear. I can only assume the manufacturers think decking fitters will be annoyed by having to use several sizes of bit, and thus "standardized" on T25. It does mean they can sell lots of bits though. Of course, if it's domed or cheesehead these issues don't apply (as much).

Back markers in this field have to be the cross-head variants, Phillips and Pozidriv. I still have a genuine, original Pozidriv #2 screwdriver somewhere from the British consumer launch way back inthe 1970s (Pozidriv is a British invention, BTW). Like everybody, I use them all the time, but I don't _like_ them. Far too many variants, far too many badly stamped screws and drivers, far too many metal splinters...

... I know: far too much detail, too.  

E.


----------



## AES (2 May 2019)

@ Eric the Viking, you wrote, QUOTE: ... I know: far too much detail, too.  UNQUOTE:

Not at all, I find such things very interesting (I know, filling my now limited head capacity with all sorts of vaguely useless information)  

Interesting that our experience of Robertson is different. Oh well. That's life!

Cheers

Edit for a P.S. I know what you mean about Torx heads in CS screws though, but here anyway "small" CS screws may well have T15 or T20 heads, even T10 on really small screws, and it's only when you get to "bigger" CS screws that the drives go to a more or less T25 "standard" (sometimes even T30)


----------



## Lonsdale73 (2 May 2019)

AES":2mhiw4x4 said:


> Interesting that our experience of Robertson is different. Oh well. That's life!



Is your experience based on genuine Kreg drivers? I had similar issues with their long bits and one became unusable very quickly. Naturally, I blamed myself for maybe applying too much force. I found the stubby one so much better.


----------



## AES (2 May 2019)

Yeah, I tried both the long and short ("bitz"-type) drivers, but all were genuine Kreg bits, bought "direct" from Kreg (via Axi, back when they were Kreg dealers). You're right, the long ones are worse (maybe a bit easier to stray off the vertical, but handy non the less in tight spots), but so far (I haven't used Kreg all that much) for me anyway, both do suffer cam out. But as said, maybe it's just me and I only need to "refine" my technique (AND the clutch setting when power driving).

No big deal though, as also said before, I can "manage" with them.


----------

