# dowel joint or biscuit joint?



## russ_1380 (3 May 2009)

Hello everyone,

I'm Russell, new to the forum and new to hobby woodworking; a complete novice in fact.

I am starting to become more and more interested in home/hobby woodworking and so have started to crave more tools....

One problem I have come across is the need for a jointing tool, either biscuit or dowel. From a beginners point of view they both seem to achieve the same; join two bits of wood. I appreciate they obviously are very different in principle.

Can someone please explain the pros and cons of each joint? Is it simply a case that they are similar joints and it is just down to users' preference as to which they use?

I would need the tool to do two things:

1.) For joining two planks parallel together, to make one wider plank. (I hope this makes sense).

2.) To make 90 degree joints (for a very basic (beginner) box or small cabinet)

From what I have read on the internet both dowel joints and biscuit joints will do the jobs equally well.

Please can you share your experience as to which type of joint is the better all rounder.

I understand that a dowel joint would be the cheapest for me to achieve; I would presumably just need to buy a dowel jig and use my own drill. To do a biscuit I would need to buy a biscuit cutter tool, much more expensive.

My main question to you pro's is; Do you think I should go for a dowel jig or save up my money and buy a decent biscuit cutter? What do you use?

My main criteria are:

-Ease of use
-Accuracy

Many thanks

Russell


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## Paul Chapman (3 May 2009)

A biscuit jointer every time. Much faster, much more accurate and a much stronger joint. You just need to mark a pencil line on both pieces of wood and off you go, so no complicated setting up that you have with a dowelling jig. The joint is much stronger because with dowels there is very little long-grain to long-grain gluing surface.

But buy the best biscuit jointer you can afford - some of the cheaper ones are not so good where accuracy of the fence is concerned.

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## LarryS. (3 May 2009)

I'll second the biscuit jointer too, dowels in comparison are much more difficult to align when the biscuit jointer does it automatically.

second thing to note is that biscuits don't strengthen a joint, they just are there to line the two pieces up together. For real strength you'd need a proper joint like a mortice and tenon (when joining to pieces at a 90 degree angle)

however when joining two planks together along their length then a biscuit is fine as you have so much glueing area between the 2 pieces


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## russ_1380 (3 May 2009)

Cheers Paul

That's great; my main concern is quality. Could you recommend any models? Bare in mind I am not a tradesperson just an enthusiastic DIYer/hobbyman that needs a tool to last.



Cheers

Russell.


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## LarryS. (3 May 2009)

russell, i was in the same situation as you, looked all over the forum for recommendations and bzased on all that info narrowed it down to one from Machine mart which comes recommended even though its cheap :

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/p...jointer-230v/path/11-routers-biscuit-jointers

if you can afford a bit more then dewalt or makita are generally seen as very good tools


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## matt (3 May 2009)

Biscuit jointer. I use a Secondhand Elu (now the DW685). The previous owner was a pro joiner and the Elu has seen hard use but remains accurate. So... I'd not hesitate recommending it.

Give dowels a very wide swerve... I've tried numerous jigs and not found one that gives repeatable accurate joints.

Also give some thought to Pocket Hole joints. I'm a recent convert and find them a useful compliment to biscuit joints for smaller pieces of timber (e.g. face frames) and for joining face frames to the carcass (saves buying lots of clamps!


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## Paul Chapman (3 May 2009)

russ_1380":360iyyxd said:


> Could you recommend any models?



There are lots of different makes from relatively inexpensive right up to the very expensive. I can only speak about the one I use which is a very old Elu that's a rather different design to most. Here it is in action 







Elu no longer exist but it's still made by DeWalt http://www.dewalt.co.uk/powertools/prod ... no/DW685K/ Compared with other biscuit jointers the only thing it doesn't have is a variable angle fence. However, I've always found it excellent.

The more normal style is like this one with a variable fence for working on angled pieces as well as right-angle joints http://www.dewalt.co.uk/powertools/prod ... no/DW682K/

Sorry, that's probably not of much help but others will no doubt be along with experiences of their jointers.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## russ_1380 (3 May 2009)

No that's great lads. I must admit I didn't expect such a rapid response on a Sun night!

I see the difference between types; to be honest with what I am doing I will probably stick with the conventional type tool. 

I've just read you can get biscuits into mitre joints to reinforce them. That would be great for me. I'm planning to make a few small MDF boxes for my tools plus I can cut mitres on my table saw.

How do you guys rate Clarke? I have mixed opinions; living near Liverpool I am quite close to a Machine Mart, they stock mainly Clarke tools. 

I have bought numerous Clarke tools in the past and have generally found mixed results, good and bad. My Clarke table saw was not very good out of the box. I have since built a sledge and new fence for it (the original fence went into the bin) and it is much better (but I still wish I spent more and bought a better make).

I have a budget of around £150


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## woodbloke (3 May 2009)

Biscuit jointer every time. Dowelling is inherently inaccurate with a limited gluing strength in certain cases. Biscuit jointing is far more simple and much stronger, I'd advise to buy the best you can afford. Lamello make the best machines (I use a Lamello C2) but other ones such as the Makita are reputed to be very good - Rob


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## Michael7 (3 May 2009)

I mentioned this before about the Clarke BJ600 having what looks to have the same fence as a DeWalt682k costing £180. 

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums...days=0&postorder=asc&highlight=bj600&start=15

I got a Clarke a while back and I have no problems with it. Easy to adjust.


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## cambournepete (4 May 2009)

Whilst I agree with the idea of a biscuit jointer, I feel I should point out there is one accurate dowel machine - the Mafell, although at around £500 it's a simlar price to the Domino.
Don't buy a really cheap BJ - I bought the Ferm from Screwfix and it's hopeless and inaccurate - no, wait, it's not that good...


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## barbyndave (4 May 2009)

Hi All,

I am also new - don't be too hard!

As a relative newbie to woodworking, I bought a SIP jointer that went on ebay after first use. My next attempt was a dewalt DW682 as recommended to me - I bought it and upon using it for the first time, found it already needed the depth adjusting aaahhh! I took it back to the dealer and simply asked "what is the best biscuit jointer I can buy". The dealer then proceeded to take many hundreds of my hard earned pounds from me for my Festool Domino!

Russell - even as a beginner to woodwork, I haven't looked back since owning this machine, it covers nearly all the joints I have needed to do, was easy to use & precise.

The only downside is I had to sleep on the couch for a week!!

Goodluck
Dave


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## Digit (4 May 2009)

Biscuit jointer. But they might need a bit more experience than a doweling jig to get the best out of them. Unless you can afford a _really_ good make the first step is to dump the fence.

Roy.


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## Aled Dafis (4 May 2009)

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned a router, with a biscuit jointing cutter. As a novice woodworker, you'd get far more versatility from a router than a biscuit jointer - think moulding edges, morticing, grooving etc, etc. Biscuit cutters for the router can be bought fairly reasonably, and from what I've heard, do a good job.

On the other hand, I have a trend biscuit jointer in mint condition that I hardly ever use, especially now that I've splashed out and bought a Festool Domino. It's yours for £75 plus postage if you're interested.

Cheers

Aled


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## HawkEye (4 May 2009)

The festool biscuit jointer is half a grand - hope it lasts you a long long time. 8)


+ 

If I'm going to join two pieces of 18mm MDF, what rules apply to the width of the biscuit?


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## trousers (4 May 2009)

I bet it will last longer than your plasma telly (if you've got one) :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (4 May 2009)

HawkEye":3o6mkzdr said:


> If I'm going to join two pieces of 18mm MDF, what rules apply to the width of the biscuit?



Biscuits generally come in three sizes - #0 (small), #10 (medium), #20 (large). What size to use depends entirely on the thickness of the pieces you are joining together. In general, use the largest possible.

Where you are jointing very thick boards, say 2" thick as in this oak table top, you can use a double row like this






What I sometimes do if I am joining together two pieces, one of which is thick and the other thin, is to have, say, 2/3 of the biscuit in the thicker piece and 1/3 in the thinner piece. This is easy to do with the biscuit jointer I use (Elu DS140) because it has a continuously variable depth of cut. I'm not sure whether you can do this with all biscuit jointers, some of which I think have set depths of cut to suit the three sizes of biscuit.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Steve Maskery (4 May 2009)

I suspect I'm going to get it in the neck here and there will be cries of "Foul!", but there are alternatives.

OK, yes, if your options were just dowels or biscuits, then it is biscuits every time. And if money is no object then it is a Domino every time. At least, every time that falls within its remit.

But loose tenon jonery can be done VERY well with an ordinary router and a few jigs. Inexpensive, versatile, and with results just as good as using a Domino, let alone a dowel jig.

And for one offs, there is not much difference in speed either.

I use "proper" M&T joints now, much more often than I used to, because I own the world's best tenon jig, but I have survived for nigh on 30 years using a router and loose tenons. They work superbly in a huge variety of situations, and you usually have much simpler cleaning up to do afterwards as well.

If you own a back-catalogue of Good Woodworking you can probably find an article on my router mortice jig. I'm afraid I can no longer tell you which issue.

Others will have to tell you where you can find this fount of knowledge today, otherwise I really will get into trouble, but you have many good options without having to spend a fortune.

S


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## Paul Chapman (4 May 2009)

Steve Maskery":3n6lpykk said:


> I suspect I'm going to get it in the neck here and there will be cries of "Foul!"



Not at all, Steve - loose tenons or tongues would be just as good. That's the thing with woodwork - there are usually several different ways of doing the job, all equally effective.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## AndyT (4 May 2009)

On the other hand, don't just give up on dowels!

Quite some time ago, I needed to make some light weight doors in softwood, finished size about 19 x 45mm, with 4 or 6 mm ply panels, for some built-in cupboards.

I didn't want to spend ages doing m+ts so I cut all the ends square, put two dowels in each corner and then ploughed grooves for the panels.

They are all still in use, no joint failures, all nice and tight! I admit some of the strength will be from the panels, but you don't always need to over-engineer things. 

Andy


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## russ_1380 (4 May 2009)

Good replies guys, very informative!

Ok, so now I am well and truly spoilt for choice:

Biscuit
Dowel
Loose tenon 
Domino

I think dowel will be ruled out from what people are saying.
Domino system seems too expensive for my budget at mo (£500?)

I will be buying a router at some point, so I could kill two birds with one stone if i go the loose tenon option. Can you buy pre made tenons for these joints, like buying biscuits? or do you have to cut them yourself?

Also, if I was using 1/2 inch MDF are loose tenons suitable or is 1/2 ich too thin a material.

Thank you everyone for your help


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## Steve Maskery (4 May 2009)

russ_1380":26dp272y said:


> Can you buy pre made tenons for these joints, like buying biscuits? or do you have to cut them yourself?



Yes you can. Festool sell them. I don't know the price, but they are not as cheap as biscuits. On the other hand you can make your own by the yard, which you can't do with biscuits.

For 12mm MDF you really need a dom of no more than 5mm. Festool are about to bring out a 4mm dom, I gather. That would work. The liniting factor with all loose-tenon joinery is the depth of cut, and hence tenon length.

S


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## HawkEye (5 May 2009)

Nice work there Paul.



russ_1380":80w7n8uo said:


> Can you buy pre made tenons for these joints, like buying biscuits? or do you have to cut them yourself?
> 
> Also, if I was using 1/2 inch MDF are loose tenons suitable or is 1/2 ich too thin a material.



I'd like to know this aswell, I have no experience of loose M&T either. I would be using a 6mm slot cutter router bit on 18mm mdf. Is this ok?

Also, how loose does the tenon have to be, is a tight fit not preferable?


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## HawkEye (5 May 2009)

Steve Maskery":1h5hz95y said:


> russ_1380":1h5hz95y said:
> 
> 
> > Can you buy pre made tenons for these joints, like buying biscuits? or do you have to cut them yourself?
> ...



So ideally about 1/3 and definately not more than half?


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## Paul Chapman (5 May 2009)

HawkEye":1mlx9ptf said:


> Also, how loose does the tenon have to be, is a tight fit not preferable?



What you need is a nice sliding fit but you must leave a way for excess glue to escape. Here's a test-piece where I made a loose oak tenon.







On the actual job, I grooved the tenon so that excess glue could escape. Like this - I used a scratch stock but a couple of saw cuts would do the job






Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## wrightclan (5 May 2009)

Paul Chapman":1nizk5i7 said:


> What I sometimes do if I am joining together two pieces, one of which is thick and the other thin, is to have, say, 2/3 of the biscuit in the thicker piece and 1/3 in the thinner piece. This is easy to do with the biscuit jointer I use (Elu DS140) because it has a continuously variable depth of cut. I'm not sure whether you can do this with all biscuit jointers, some of which I think have set depths of cut to suit the three sizes of biscuit.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



Hi, I haven't posted on here for awhile, but thought I'd add my two pence here. Yes, you can do what you described with a biscuit jointer that has preset depths. If you use the #20 setting into the thicker piece (e.g. a plywood shelf) and the #0 setting into the thinner stock (e.g. 1/2" hardwood edging) you will get a combined depth perfect for a #10 biscuit.

Brad


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## Steve Maskery (5 May 2009)

Hawkeye, yes, that's right.
Remember, this is loose tenon joinery - that is, Loose as in Separate, not Loose as in Sloppy.

Paul, nice job.
Another way is to make the tenon rectangular in section, just a tad narrower than the moretice, thenrout 45deg chamfers along the edges. It doesn't significantly compromise the strength and leaves pleanty of room for the air and glue to squeeze out.


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S


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## Neil (5 May 2009)

If you go down the biscuit jointer route, it might be worth looking at the AEG rather than something like the Clarke:
http://www.dm-tools.co.uk/product.php/section/7705/sn/AEGLF650
It has the nice Mafell-style depth turret (and a 3 year warranty I think?), and looks a bargain for £135 from DM or £100 from Ebay.

Cheers,
Neil


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## HawkEye (5 May 2009)

How do you actually make the tenon then? 

A relatively simple way, in my mind, is to run a nosing line down both sides of a length of timber and then cut out the tenons individually from that piece. However, getting some 6mm thick hardwood at the desired width and length is a problem. Are they buyable?


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## AndyT (5 May 2009)

> 6mm thick hardwood at the desired width and length is a problem. Are they buyable?



I'd have thought offcuts of decent ply would be the best thing.

Andy


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## Paul Chapman (5 May 2009)

HawkEye":35ptfoo0 said:


> How do you actually make the tenon then?



In the example I showed above, I had eight to make. I planed up the eight pieces and then rounded over the edges using a block plane and rasp. Another option would be to leave the edges square and square off the ends of the mortice with a chisel - although rounding over the tenon is easier and takes only a couple of minutes.

You dont have to use solid wood for the tenons (or loose tongues). Other options would include plywood and MDF and if you could get these in thicknesses to match the router cutter used to cut the mortice (or groove in the case of loose tongues) it would save time and result in less work.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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