# Axminster AWFS 18 how does it compare to a Hegner?



## scrimper

Reference the Axminster AWFS 18, this saw looks like a carbon copy of a Hegner saw, does any one here have one? Does anyone have any experience of this saw? How does it compare to a Hegner?

I am not buying one but I was just interested about it as I already have a Hegner but this saw looks exactly the same apart from the colour!

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-tr ... scroll-saw


----------



## Stooby

I have the axminster but have never used the hegner. I love my saw and am getting on really well with it. A few minor niggles with the safety features (the screen to protect the eyes attracts dust so I removed it and rely on my safety glasses and the gold down foot is always getting in the way so ditto). I love the variable speed and use it a lot. No issues so far.


----------



## redmoorphil

Hi Scrimper,
Looks can be rather deceptive! I purchased the AWFS 18 and because I hadn't used another saw thought it was OK and that the issues I was having were down to me.
It eventually became apparent that the saw was the problem and after emailing Chippygeoff for advice I ended up returning it after a repair made it even worse and purchased a Hegner (One of the best decisions I have ever made).
The 2 saws are like chalk and cheese and despite being told that they are made in the same factory (I don't beliece this for a second) I maintain that, if true, the cleaning staff must knock up the AWFS when the professionals have gone home.
The finish of it and the attention to detail and accuracy just aren't on a par with a Hegner. 
Don't get me wrong, the AWFS is probably one of the better saws available when compared to most of the saws available in the UK but it just does not warrant the price charged for it now and I would choose a bottom of the range Hegner over it every day of the week.


----------



## finneyb

This looks awfully like a set up by the Hegner mafia


----------



## redmoorphil

Careful or you might end up sleeping with the fishes! 8) 
I actually thought when typing that people will think "hegner snob" but you can only speak from personal experience and I wish that I had listened to the hegner crowd before I bought an AWFS. Buy cheap ( or actually not so cheap!) and buy twice. Guess thats why I'm a Mac guy, but that's a whole other argument


----------



## toesy

Mac guy, I have a Mac with Windows on it.... 

Sorry thread hi-jack - my bad,


----------



## Scrollerman

redmoorphil":2j5dxr05 said:


> The 2 saws are like chalk and cheese and despite being told that they are made in the same factory (I don't beliece this for a second) I maintain that, if true, the cleaning staff must knock up the AWFS when the professionals have gone home.



Hi redmoorphil. I appreciate you say you don't beliece it (sic), but who told you they are made in the same factory ?


----------



## scrimper

finneyb":2o0r2ys3 said:


> This looks awfully like a set up by the Hegner mafia



It was a genuine question,  I have seen this Axminster saw mentioned and looking it up it does (IMHO) look to be a copy or clone of a Hegner saw apart from the speed control and colour. I was interested to know how good or bad the saw was because IMHO Hegners are overpriced and if the Axminster is as good then it would be a good buy.

It's not a Hegner bragging thread, quite the opposite and I am interested in users opinions of the saw.


----------



## toesy

I have to agree with Scrimper, it looks like it came out of the hegner factory... So much like each other.

When you compare the AWFS18 against the Multicut 1 Variable, the axminster has more, the quick release tension at the front, the hold down bar thing, the arm which you can attach things to, the No Volt switch, the plastic guard.

It has an lot going for it and its already £70.00 cheaper.. 

I'd be tempted meself

And a 3 year warranty !!!


----------



## finneyb

redmoorphil":128m5gtq said:


> Careful or you might end up sleeping with the fishes! 8)



And the extra weight of the AWFS18 over the Hegner 29kg/21kgs would come in useful to weigh me down


----------



## Chippygeoff

The AWFS 18 is an exact replica of the Hegner and what I don't understand is how the factory in Taiwan got permission to copy the Hegner as the Hegner is a patented design and they are clearly flouting copyright laws but they probably don't apply to Taiwan. The Hegner has always been made in Germany and like most machines from Germany are highly engineered using the highest quality materials available, the same as used on aircraft. The same cannot be said for the AWFS 18, the materials used in it's manufacture are cheap and cheerful. I know one guy who badly cut his hands lifting it out of the box, the edges of the table on the underside were sharp and ragged. Having said all that I endorse what Phil said, although it's not a very good saw when compared with a Hegner it is probably one of the better saws available in the UK although like the Hegner it is over priced for what you get.

What we need is a British manufacturer to produce a scroll saw with a cast iron table. Variable speed and a speed range up to 2000 strokes per minute. Quick release clamps similar to the Hegner and it would have built in suction rather than a blower and come complete with a decent light and stand. If it was priced at around £500-£600, which is feasible, then the manufacturer would sell hundreds in the UK and thousands across the globe.


----------



## finneyb

toesy":71aail7c said:


> I have to agree with Scrimper, it looks like it came out of the hegner factory... So much like each other.
> 
> When you compare the AWFS18 against the Multicut 1 Variable, the axminster has more, the quick release tension at the front, the hold down bar thing, the arm which you can attach things to, the No Volt switch, the plastic guard.
> 
> It has an lot going for it and its already £70.00 cheaper..
> 
> I'd be tempted meself
> 
> And a 3 year warranty !!!



The true comparison is between the AWFS18 and the Hegner Multi-cut 2S variable speed, both 18" throat and variable speed

AWFS18 = £399; 120w motor; 10/20mm stroke length; 29kg self weight
Hegner multi-cut 2S = £719; 100w motor; 12/19mm stroke length; 21 kg self weight 

Brian


----------



## Stooby

My axminster was fine underneath, no issues at all other than a missing plastic roller on the tension release, axminster quickly sent a couple of spares. They have fantastic customer support.


----------



## scrimper

Chippygeoff":3foxjkbh said:


> The AWFS 18 is an exact replica of the Hegner and what I don't understand is how the factory in Taiwan got permission to copy the Hegner as the Hegner is a patented design and they are clearly flouting copyright laws but they probably don't apply to Taiwan.



Is it possible that the patent has expired? Is it correct that Patents only last for 20 years? Hegner started making the now famous saw in the mid 1970's I know they patented their unique knife edge blade suspension system in 1974. I know the Chinese have zero respect for patents but if Hegner had an iron cast patent on their machines surely they could stop clones being sold here? 

I bought my Hegner in 1999 but had I seen this Axminster clone I would probably have been very tempted as it does look the same sort of design, however things are not always what they seem and it's possible the Hegner is worth the extra but it is interesting hearing different opinions especially from those who have tried both saws.


----------



## scrimper

Chippygeoff":18a7kfhc said:


> What we need is a British manufacturer to produce a scroll saw with a cast iron table. Variable speed and a speed range up to 2000 strokes per minute. Quick release clamps similar to the Hegner and it would have built in suction rather than a blower and come complete with a decent light and stand. If it was priced at around £500-£600, which is feasible, then the manufacturer would sell hundreds in the UK and thousands across the globe.



I do so wish for that! If only the once great Record company of Sheffield were still manufacturing in the UK I bet they would be making a decent fretsaw by now, they dabbled with an RBI made quality saw before they were taken over but then ditched it in favour of cheap far eastern made junk saw which they stuck a Record of Sheffield badge on!

The last Quality fretsaw made in the UK was the Diamond manufactured by the late Doug Woodward, I have one and it is a quality machine but would have been much improved had it been fitted with an induction motor rather than the noisy series wound one fitted and it lacked a quick way of tensioning the blade, had Doug lived I am sure that by now his saw would be similar to what Geoff and other would like.


----------



## scrimper

Stooby":33j6fy9u said:


> I have the axminster but have never used the hegner. I love my saw and am getting on really well with it. A few minor niggles with the safety features (the screen to protect the eyes attracts dust so I removed it and rely on my safety glasses and the gold down foot is always getting in the way so ditto). I love the variable speed and use it a lot. No issues so far.



That is good to hear and I would have done like you and removed both those annoying items.

What you really need to do though is buy yourself a Hegner then you could do a full in depth appraisal of the 2 saws alongside each other!

(lol only joking about buying a Hegner) 

I would love to see a full comparison between the two, do these Axminster saws ever appear cheap on ebay? it wouldn't mind buying one to do an in-depth comparison.


----------



## finneyb

I think the patent run out some years ago, if there ever was one.
This treadle scrollsaw looks like the early Hegner/AWFS18 parallel motion with a tensioning thread.


----------



## powertools

finneyb":2husmcpp said:


> I think the patent run out some years ago, if there ever was one.
> This treadle scrollsaw looks like the early Hegner/AWFS18 parallel motion with a tensioning thread.



Now were talking I have one of those but I think that first patent for a true parallel motion saw was granted to Hobbies for there Royal fret saw this is a picture of mine.


----------



## finneyb

Very nice, with variable speed as well.

Brian


----------



## powertools

finneyb":1zbz2bbn said:


> Very nice, with variable speed as well.
> 
> Brian



You are right there it starts off fast but very quickly slows down.


----------



## Claymore

How do the old treadle scroll saws compare to modern electric ones...... are they as accurate/smooth and were the old blades any good again compared to the latest kit?
Just curious as a newbie to scrolls you have to learn somewhere and i guess some of you guys were around when they first came out? 9-)
Cheers
Brian


----------



## Walney Col

Claymore":3rt04ow3 said:


> ...you have to learn somewhere and i guess some of you guys were around when they first came out? 9-)
> Cheers
> Brian


Ouch #-o


----------



## scrimper

Claymore":24s44ao4 said:


> How do the old treadle scroll saws compare to modern electric ones...... are they as accurate/smooth and were the old blades any good again compared to the latest kit?
> Just curious as a newbie to scrolls you have to learn somewhere and i guess some of you guys were around when they first came out? 9-)
> Cheers
> Brian



Put it this way, once you have used a decent motor powered fretsaw you would not wish to go back to a treadle machine! I have a Hobbies A1 treadle machine and although in it's day it was a revelation after using a hand-frame a motor powered saw is supremely better in terms of power, speed of use, accuracy and ability to cut thicker material. Having said this it was excellent in it's day and many fret-workers did brilliant work with them when they were the thing to use.


----------



## ardenwoodcraft

I suppose us Excalibur owners should just go and sit in a corner and mutter into our beer then??? :-#


----------



## scrimper

powertools":256ps963 said:


> finneyb":256ps963 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the patent run out some years ago, if there ever was one.
> This treadle scrollsaw looks like the early Hegner/AWFS18 parallel motion with a tensioning thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now were talking I have one of those but I think that first patent for a true parallel motion saw was granted to Hobbies for there Royal fret saw this is a picture of mine.
Click to expand...


I am very envious of that saw, the Royal was first introduced in 1899 about the same time as the first A1 machine (my particular A1 dates from the 1920's) How did you come by the Royal machine? (my A1 originally belonged to my grandfather)


----------



## scrimper

ardenwoodcraft":34yumier said:


> I suppose us Excalibur owners should just go and sit in a corner and mutter into our beer then??? :-#



Well this thread is about the Axminster AWFS18 saw but like all threads is susceptible to thread drift (not complaining any input is interesting) Excalibur owners are fully entitled and welcome to join in the chat, after all we are all fretworkers whatever machine we use.


----------



## jonluv

Used a treadle saw in the late forties (1947) remember that I used to sweat with concentration but no pain in legs you really had to have a good grip on the wood as the blades were savage

It was very slow but really satisfying to use, it seemed to be easy to create inlay but perhaps that's just in my memories

My Father used to bring exotic woods home from work , he was a Joiner at John Browns Shipyard making the furniture
for the cabins

My Uncle motorised the saw I think in the Fifties using a Singer motor, he worked for Singer in Clydebank so perhaps it was a borrowed motor

Used it off and on till about 1956 when the army called when returning to civy street it had gone

Would love to try one now!!


----------



## ardenwoodcraft

scrimper":17jzo3o8 said:


> ardenwoodcraft":17jzo3o8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose us Excalibur owners should just go and sit in a corner and mutter into our beer then??? :-#
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well this thread is about the Axminster AWFS18 saw but like all threads is susceptible to thread drift (not complaining any input is interesting) Excalibur owners are fully entitled and welcome to join in the chat, after all we are all fretworkers whatever machine we use.
Click to expand...



Thank you, I did start with an Axminster AWVFS scrollsaw when I started out before moving on to my Excalibur.

Wonder when the Chinese will get round to cloning Excaliburs?

I am actually quite interested in the comparison of the Hegner and the AWFS18, its amazing how such similar looking machines can be so different. And surprising that Hegner are still making these in Germany not China.


----------



## scrimper

jonluv":2gobolqs said:


> My Uncle motorised the saw I think in the Fifties using a Singer motor, he worked for Singer in Clydebank so perhaps it was a borrowed motor



Could it have been a Hobbies motor conversion kit? Hobbies Ltd did actually market a proper motor conversion kit for the A1 machine for several years.


----------



## powertools

Claymore":9lcog78v said:


> How do the old treadle scroll saws compare to modern electric ones...... are they as accurate/smooth and were the old blades any good again compared to the latest kit?
> Just curious as a newbie to scrolls you have to learn somewhere and i guess some of you guys were around when they first came out? 9-)
> Cheers
> Brian



You can't compare using a modern saw to a treadle saw using a treadle saw is a bit like trying to do a pencil drawing while jogging down the road, but that could be something to do with the fact that by your calculation I am about 125 years old.
I use a modern saw but also collect vintage ones.


----------



## powertools

scrimper":22le8xxz said:


> powertools":22le8xxz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> finneyb":22le8xxz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the patent run out some years ago, if there ever was one.
> This treadle scrollsaw looks like the early Hegner/AWFS18 parallel motion with a tensioning thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now were talking I have one of those but I think that first patent for a true parallel motion saw was granted to Hobbies for there Royal fret saw this is a picture of mine.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am very envious of that saw, the Royal was first introduced in 1899 about the same time as the first A1 machine (my particular A1 dates from the 1920's) How did you come by the Royal machine? (my A1 originally belonged to my grandfather)
Click to expand...


Sorry to have helped your thread to go off track but in answer to your question I came across the the Royal on ebay just before last Christmas, it was about 200 miles away from me and was collection only but I emailed the seller to see if he would pack it up and send it and it turned out that just after Christmas he was going to be making a journey that took him within about 15 miles from me and he would bring the saw with him. I did win the auction at just over £39 so we arranged to meet at a truck stop just off the M1.
The saw is 1 of 6 all different models made by Hobbies I now have and I still have to blame Martin for getting me started with this collection after he posted a link to a Hobbies Victory for sale not far from home that I purchased.


----------



## scrimper

powertools":ro6i3d2b said:


> Sorry to have helped your thread to go off track but in answer to your question I came across the the Royal on ebay just before last Christmas, it was about 200 miles away from me and was collection only but I emailed the seller to see if he would pack it up and send it and it turned out that just after Christmas he was going to be making a journey that took him within about 15 miles from me and he would bring the saw with him. I did win the auction at just over £39 so we arranged to meet at a truck stop just off the M1.
> The saw is 1 of 6 all different models made by Hobbies I now have and I still have to blame Martin for getting me started with this collection after he posted a link to a Hobbies Victory for sale not far from home that I purchased.



Don't worry about thread drift especially if the subject drifted to is about Hobbies Fretsaws! I am now even more envious now I hear you have a collection of Treadle machines including a Victory, I have never seen a Victory in the flesh but it looks to be a really sturdy machine, any chance of you posting some pictures of your machines?

When my grandfather passed away in 1968 he left a Hobbies Imperial machine, but at the time I did not have room for itt plus being a young lad I was more interested in the ladies and I let the saw go for scrap! I have always regretted that decision.


----------



## powertools

First to come are the Victory and A1.







Next the Gem






Followed by the Briton






Next was this box of bits






That turned into this that I think is an Imperial






And finally the Royal






I do also have an earlier version of the A1 but that is in bits at the moment.

Funny thing is I have turned up most of these saws during my search for a Hobbies Companion lathe with the fret saw attachment and as yet have not found the lathe.


----------



## finneyb

If you catch your knee on the Gem or Briton flywheel I suspect the neighbourhood would know about it.

Brian


----------



## scrimper

Thanks for the pictures they are very interesting, my favourites are the Victory and the Imperial. The Victory looks to be very sturdy!
I am a bit dubious of that block of wood that is used to mount the saw on top of the legs on the imperial? I have always assumed that this part was a metal casting like all the others, is it possible that it was used to replace a missing or damaged part?

The imperial that my Grandfather owned also incorporated a drilling attachment on the right hand side powered by a second drive belt.


----------



## powertools

scrimper":3slfh96o said:


> Thanks for the pictures they are very interesting, my favourites are the Victory and the Imperial. The Victory looks to be very sturdy!
> I am a bit dubious of that block of wood that is used to mount the saw on top of the legs on the imperial? I have always assumed that this part was a metal casting like all the others, is it possible that it was used to replace a missing or damaged part?
> 
> The imperial that my Grandfather owned also incorporated a drilling attachment on the right hand side powered by a second drive belt.



I,m pleased that you find the saws interesting. If I had to choose a favorite it would be the Royal the Victory is the most impressive but it is very hard work to use and I can't understand what it would have been made for it has a 26" throat depth so in theory you could cut out in the centre of a panel 4 foot wide but there is no way you could support that on the table and reach the treadle with your feet. The Royal however has a true parallel motion and is a joy to use and is a nice design.
I think that all the saws are important in their own way as they show the development of the modern scroll saw and the Gem is the worst of the bunch but would have been Hobbies best selling saw due to it's lower price and with the complexity of most of the patterns also sold by Hobbies at the same time most users would have been happy with the results much the same situation arises today in that there are a range of saws available at different prices. It would be unfair the compare the Royal to the Gem but I expect that buyers in those days didn't expect them to perform the same.
You may be right about the wooden top on the Imperial I don't know that is how it came and the wood looks very old but may not be original from what I have been able to find out I think that the drill may have been an extra that could have been purchased for both the Imperial and the A1 but once again I am not sure.
As time allows I am trying to find out more about the development of the Hobbies saws and fill in the gaps of the ones I don't have.


----------



## scrimper

powertools":1nivasll said:


> scrimper":1nivasll said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the pictures they are very interesting, my favourites are the Victory and the Imperial. The Victory looks to be very sturdy!
> I am a bit dubious of that block of wood that is used to mount the saw on top of the legs on the imperial? I have always assumed that this part was a metal casting like all the others, is it possible that it was used to replace a missing or damaged part?
> 
> The imperial that my Grandfather owned also incorporated a drilling attachment on the right hand side powered by a second drive belt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I,m pleased that you find the saws interesting. If I had to choose a favorite it would be the Royal the Victory is the most impressive but it is very hard work to use and I can't understand what it would have been made for it has a 26" throat depth so in theory you could cut out in the centre of a panel 4 foot wide but there is no way you could support that on the table and reach the treadle with your feet. The Royal however has a true parallel motion and is a joy to use and is a nice design.
> I think that all the saws are important in their own way as they show the development of the modern scroll saw and the Gem is the worst of the bunch but would have been Hobbies best selling saw due to it's lower price and with the complexity of most of the patterns also sold by Hobbies at the same time most users would have been happy with the results much the same situation arises today in that there are a range of saws available at different prices. It would be unfair the compare the Royal to the Gem but I expect that buyers in those days didn't expect them to perform the same.
> You may be right about the wooden top on the Imperial I don't know that is how it came and the wood looks very old but may not be original from what I have been able to find out I think that the drill may have been an extra that could have been purchased for both the Imperial and the A1 but once again I am not sure.
> As time allows I am trying to find out more about the development of the Hobbies saws and fill in the gaps of the ones I don't have.
Click to expand...


I think the Imperial came as standard with the drill attachment, perhaps the one you have was modified when that wooden part was fitted and the drill part was removed! The A1 could be bought with or without the drill unit but I don't think it could be retro fitted. Just before the WW2 the A1 was selling at 47/6 (£2.37) or 65/- (£3.25) with a fitted drill so about a third of the cost extra! £1 was quite a lot of money in 1938 when a decent wage would have been between £1 - £2 per week!
FWIW the Imperial machine (inc drill) was selling for 90/- (£4.50) in 1938.

The Gem was introduced back in 1928 and original had the same cast metal tripod/legs base as the A1 but gradually over the years this was change to pressed steel parts to save production costs.

Hobbies also made a Triumph machine, a bit like the A1 but with a better rectangular table and it ran more smoothly on ball bearings.

Regarding your comment on the long throat on the victory, this would have been useful when cutting long narrow parts such as the sides of ornate frames that Hobbies were so fond of in their earlier fretwork designs.


----------



## powertools

As I said when I posted the pictures I think that it is an Imperial but there is no name on it so it may well not be but I have been unable to find any other model that is similar to it. 
It may well be a saw that has had a hard life and the drill is missing and the top has been replaced with the wooden top it now has or I think it may be possible that things changed during the war years and this may be a saw built to a lower spec in the same way that the quality of the Gem lowered over the years.
I know that the present Hobbies company used to have a museum of items from the original Hobbies company but I don't know if they still do I will phone them and find out and also see if they have records of changes made to the saws over the years.
The Triumph along with the Companion lathe are the last 2 items I am looking for to complete my collection.


----------



## scrimper

I don't know for sure but I have a feeling they lost the museum, when they moved from Dereham to Raveningham in 2008. I understand that the company has changed hands, as you are probably aware it was started again back in 1968 by Ivan Stroulger and later run by his sons (Ivan Stroulger passed away in 2009 at the ripe age of 92)

I am fairly certain that the saw in question is an Imperial, to my knowledge they never made any other model with that type of stand. 

They also made a Norfolk 1904 and later a Suffolk model both very sturdy and very similar to your victory machine.


----------

