# More sharpening woes



## Bigbud78 (15 Jun 2016)

I thought I was getting there but as the wheel on my grinder is getting smaller my home made jigs are now all out and I really can not be bothered to make them again.

I want a final solution, I want a repeatable edge on my tools that's easy to do. I dont have enough time on the lathe as is so dont want to be messing around with sharpening anymore xD I currently have a record 8" grinder.

Keep using the grinder
http://www.axminster.co.uk/tormek-bgk-4 ... kit-504087

Proedge
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/20068748 ... pla&crdt=0

Wetstone of some description ? Tormek or clone

Has anyone used the tormek grinder kit ? My heart is saying just buy the proedge by my wallet is complaining a lot.


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## chipmunk (15 Jun 2016)

Why not just buy a couple of new grinder wheels and continue to use your own jigs? 
Wheels are consumables and if your wheels are getting small buying a new jig isn't going to get around this problem.

As an alternative to the Tormek jigs you could buy the Sorby equivalent jig...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Robert-So...12f86b&pid=100338&rk=7&rkt=14&sd=200687480823

or the Axminster version...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-woodturner-s-sharpening-system-950032

The Pro-edge is very nice but it isn't a panacea or particularly cheap to run IMHO as you need to budget for belts. They're a consumable too - same as your wheels.

Jon


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jun 2016)

CBN wheels?


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## ColeyS1 (15 Jun 2016)

phil.p":r6eitay6 said:


> CBN wheels?


+1 it's a game changer !

Coley


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## Random Orbital Bob (15 Jun 2016)

I must say I'm hearing very good things about CBN wheels too. I'm yet to try one because I'm so invested already in various other pieces of kit so I don't have a need but everyone who tries them rates them.


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## AJB Temple (15 Jun 2016)

"Repeatable edge and easy to do" was one reason why I bought the pro edge. It is quick, clean and very easy. Belts are pretty cheap and last a long time.


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## cornucopia (15 Jun 2016)

I have a tormek and a cbn wheeel on a creusen grinder. 
if i was to have my time over again I would have an 8" grinder with a cbn wheel with the tormek bench grinder jigs

the edge from the cbn is superb and nearly as good as from the tormek, but i am sick of my tormek stone cupping.

snainton have some T7 on sale if you decide to go that way.


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## woodpig (15 Jun 2016)

AJB Temple":3ou3qxl3 said:


> "Repeatable edge and easy to do" was one reason why I bought the pro edge. It is quick, clean and very easy. Belts are pretty cheap and last a long time.



He's not wrong. Just buy a Pro Edge and be done with it. Long after the pain of buying it has gone you'll be telling others how good it is.


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## Rhossydd (15 Jun 2016)

+1 on the Pro-Edge here too


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## BearTricks (15 Jun 2016)

I'm going for a pro edge as soon as I can justify spending the money (when one of these bloody job interviews pays off). 

My cheap bench grinder vibrates everything off my shelves. I've been forced to sharpen everything on the floor which is the only place that absorbs the shaking. The Keith Rowley homemade jigs are fine but mine has taken a serious beating. Time for something more professional I think. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## JimB (17 Jun 2016)

I've found CBN wheels are well worth it.


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## Sheptonphil (17 Jun 2016)

Rhossydd":27atjwfw said:


> +1 on the Pro-Edge here too



+1, will never go back to a wheel of any sort after a Proedge. 

So many uses beyond just sharpening that wheels don't do as well or as safely. 

Phil


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Jun 2016)

The main dislike I've heard from turners of Pro Edges is the flat grind.


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## ColeyS1 (18 Jun 2016)

Sheptonphil":3k3eg800 said:


> +1, will never go back to a wheel of any sort after a Proedge.
> 
> Phil


Out of curiosity what is it you don't like about cbn wheels ? In my mind they tick all the boxes- diameter doesn't change, no risk of wheel shattering, cutting edge is cool as a cucumber (I only quench now out of habit), fast cutting, cleaner.

Coley


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## Rhossydd (18 Jun 2016)

phil.p":ooby1sym said:


> The main dislike I've heard from turners of Pro Edges is the flat grind.


Except everyone that _actually owns_ one thinks they're great.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Jun 2016)

I've not heard anyone say any other than they are great - if the grind doesn't suit you you're not likely to buy one, though.


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## Rhossydd (18 Jun 2016)

phil.p":1jraz3np said:


> if the grind doesn't suit you you're not likely to buy one, though.


Are there really many people that would find the any difference between hollow sharpening and flat sharpening ?
For me I only found things much better with sharper and more consistent edges on my tools. I can find no disadvantage to tools sharpened with the SPE instead of a 6" grinder myself.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Jun 2016)

There are a few very experienced turners at our club that don't like them - I can't see there being that much of a difference, though, certainly not enough to put me off buying one. A preference, yes - the deciding factor, no. The only thing that puts me off buying one is the price - hence it's about 101st on my list of "must be paid fors".


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## Rhossydd (19 Jun 2016)

phil.p":24rqxzdn said:


> There are a few very experienced turners at our club that don't like them


I'm curious to understand why, it's not something I've ever seen mentioned elsewhere.
Given the wide variation in both tools types and applications, I can't see how it would make a huge difference.

I wonder how many could actually tell the difference in real world use when _properly_ blind tested ?


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## woodpig (19 Jun 2016)

Some of the wood turning tools I've bought were indeed sharp enough to use straight out of the packet ( in spite of some folks claiming the opposite) and some needed a slight touch with a slip stone. As expected, none of them though were hollow ground.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Jun 2016)

I don't suppose how anything is ground when new is really relevant - many people like plane irons and chisels hollow ground - but I don't recall seeing a new one like it. It's just what the manufacture find expedient, presumably. A hollow grind on a turning would possibly be an advantage if you use slip stones or diamond plates, but most turners I know never do.


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## Rhossydd (19 Jun 2016)

phil.p":ykprdxlb said:


> many people like plane irons and chisels hollow ground - but I don't recall seeing a new one like it.


Hock irons are hollow ground.
I don't see the point myself, as soon as you hone a second bevel the actual cutting edge becomes flat anyway. Or if you follow the convex curve brigade, it could become S shaped which seems even more perverse.


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## Sheptonphil (19 Jun 2016)

ColeyS1":3hiv0g73 said:


> Sheptonphil":3hiv0g73 said:
> 
> 
> > +1, will never go back to a wheel of any sort after a Proedge.
> ...


I purchased th Pro Edge after going through the 6 and 8 inch white wheels, then the 10" slow wet system, found the constant truing of the wheel face a chore as turning gouge tools tended to groove the wheel too much after one use to then go straight to a wide flat blade like a plane. 

Went to The Sorby and found a system that fitted my sharpening needs immediately. Whether gouge, scraper, plane or chisel I can jump between, easily changing the grit if I want a finer finish. 

CBN wheels weren't around then, or certainly I never heard of them, as if I did I may never have gone to the Sorby and would probably have been happy with them. 

But now I'm here with the Pro Edge, for sharpening, I never go back to a wheel. 

I still have a grey 6" wheel for rough grinding though (not tools)".

Phil


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## Bigbud78 (20 Jun 2016)

I think I'll most likely bite the bullet in a couple of weeks and get the sorby xD


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## ColeyS1 (20 Jun 2016)

Don't knock it till you try it Phil 

Coley


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## sploo (20 Jun 2016)

Sheptonphil":3krr63vq said:


> I purchased th Pro Edge after going through the 6 and 8 inch white wheels, then the 10" slow wet system, found the constant truing of the wheel face a chore as turning gouge tools tended to groove the wheel too much after one use to then go straight to a wide flat blade like a plane.
> 
> Went to The Sorby and found a system that fitted my sharpening needs immediately. Whether gouge, scraper, plane or chisel I can jump between, easily changing the grit if I want a finer finish.
> 
> ...


My experience (admittedly of heavy grinding restoration work with old plane irons and chisels) is that paper tends to wear out very quickly, but stone wheels remove much more material and last longer.

For day-to-day sharpening, do you find yourself having to change the paper belts on the Pro Edge quite often (vs the longer life of a wheel)?


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## woodpig (20 Jun 2016)

The Pro Edge doesn't use paper belts, they're fabric backed.


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## sploo (20 Jun 2016)

woodpig":20bhftde said:


> The Pro Edge doesn't use paper belts, they're fabric backed.


I'll rephrase then 

The grit bonded to the substrate doesn't last very long when you ask it to do heavy grinding in my experience (vs using a stone wheel). Ignoring (valid) issues of having to dress a stone wheel, a wheel tends to last a lot longer than, say, a sanding belt or disc. It just feels to me like you'd be forever changing belts on the ProEdge, but I assume that's not really the case?


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## TFrench (20 Jun 2016)

I've used mine mainly for restoring bench chisels and plane irons so far as I've not had much chance to get the lathe out. Using a coarse belt gets a chisel back into shape in a matter of seconds. With the side plate off its a matter of seconds to swap belts and work up through the grits. All my lathe tools are razor sharp, and maintaining that edge is very easy. It also doesn't have the overheating problem of a wheel grinder (I did manage to blue one very misshapen old chisel when I wasn't paying attention though) I've done a lot of work with mine and still on the first coarse belt. Once you start working up the grits the wear on the belts is minimal anyway.


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## Dalboy (20 Jun 2016)

One of the problems with wear on a grinding wheel and having to constantly dress is that many will insist on grinding in the centre instead of spreading the wear across the whole width, I appreciate that the narrower wheels still will need redressing more frequently than a wider one.
Everyone has there favourite method of grinding their tools I personally don't think one is better than the other, I have been using a grinder all the time it does not make me a better or worse turner it is just a means at getting my tools sharp.

If you have loads of money to throw away then by all means go for a pro edge as long as it gets your tools as sharp as you want then great.

And then there are the ones that are too lazy to learn how to grind on a grinder, after all it was good enough for our forefathers. OK I,ll get my coat on that last statement. :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## woodpig (20 Jun 2016)

TFrench":w25q2t4i said:


> I've used mine mainly for restoring bench chisels and plane irons so far as I've not had much chance to get the lathe out. Using a coarse belt gets a chisel back into shape in a matter of seconds. With the side plate off its a matter of seconds to swap belts and work up through the grits. All my lathe tools are razor sharp, and maintaining that edge is very easy. It also doesn't have the overheating problem of a wheel grinder (I did manage to blue one very misshapen old chisel when I wasn't paying attention though) I've done a lot of work with mine and still on the first coarse belt. Once you start working up the grits the wear on the belts is minimal anyway.



Yes, quite right. Being able to almost instantly change grits is a huge benefit a bench grinder simply can't match.
60 or 80 grit to reprofile or a 240 grit to give a final polish or just touch up an edge, all with the same jig setting. :wink:

You really need to actually use a Pro Edge to appreciate how good it is, and this is where many arguments fall down.

There is always the Robert Sorby 447 system though for those on a tight budget. The only downside being a hollow grind that some don't like on turning tools but you can't have everything. :lol:


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## TFrench (21 Jun 2016)

Dalboy":3oufhhuo said:


> And then there are the ones that are too lazy to learn how to grind on a grinder, after all it was good enough for our forefathers. OK I,ll get my coat on that last statement. :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:



That's me! :lol: 
I want to learn to make cool stuff with wood, not waste my time learning to do something I can do instantly with the proedge....
I'll get my coat too!


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## duncanh (21 Jun 2016)

To all you pro edge users - have you had a problem getting a long swept back grind? Last time I saw Martin Pidgeon he said that there was an issue with the Proedge which meant that some grinds were difficult/impossible to do on the machine. This includes one of the grinds that he prefers and would probably include several of mine.

I found this old thread which also mentions difficulty with some grinds.

Any thoughts?


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## CHJ (21 Jun 2016)

The only problems I had in achieving any of the extreme profiles were relating to clearance of the switch housing with gouge handles.

I overcame this by fitting a packer* under the support table and moving the platen further up the belt path to ensure belt support for any extra tool projection this causes with skew chisels.

* This does of course alter the relationship of the platform front edge to the belt when other than at 90 deg. but as most of my accessory jigs are home made and accommodate this it is OK.

My version of the Knife jig also differs in as much as I fit a false front surface packer to the platen to move the knife handles away from the basic structure rather than having to remove the basic platen and fit an alternate. 
I also fit a support bar on the existing pivot bar rather than fit the alternate knife jig support as supplied by Sorby.
Reduces the reconfiguration effort if I want to sharpen a knife, the fact that it avoided the expenditure was well....


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## Sheptonphil (21 Jun 2016)

duncanh":q0unkkse said:


> To all you pro edge users - have you had a problem getting a long swept back grind? Last time I saw Martin Pidgeon he said that there was an issue with the Proedge which meant that some grinds were difficult/impossible to do on the machine. This includes one of the grinds that he prefers and would probably include several of mine.
> 
> I found this old thread which also mentions difficulty with some grinds.
> 
> Any thoughts?


I have the full size Elsworth gouge with fully swept back wings and don't have a problem maintaining the edge with the extended long grind holder and jig. 

Belts seem to go on and on, I have only used the Sorby ones, and have only worn one 120 grit out in a year. It's the ease of swapping grits, simplicity of all the built in angle settings and even if fingers get a little too close sometimes, it doesn't bite like a wheel. And it's so compact to boot, very little real estate taken up in the workshop. 

As Marcos states, whatever gets the edge out on it, in any way you care to put it there, at a cost that is acceptable, with the learning curve you are prepared to put in, is go best way for you. 

For me, it's the PE, guess I'm just too rich and lazy. (SWMBO would agree with half of that statement)

phil


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Jun 2016)

Four double ended grinders. I have no trouble changing grits.


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## Sheptonphil (21 Jun 2016)

phil.p":e0fgkxxm said:


> Four double ended grinders. I have no trouble changing grits.


Touché 

I'd need a bigger workshop :lol: 

Phil


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## JimB (22 Jun 2016)

I'm curious as I've never used anything than a hollow grind. I touch up between grinds using a stone touching the heel and toe of the grind. Michael Dunbar describes such a technique in Woodturning for Cabinet Makers. Anyway, does using a flat grind mean you grind more often?


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## Rhossydd (22 Jun 2016)

JimB":3eox9yvv said:


> does using a flat grind mean you grind more often?


I don't think it makes any difference.
Although as the SPE makes sharpening so much easier, I find I'm using it more often with a fine grit to just keeping a better edge on my tools more of the time. Which in turn makes life easier and results better.


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## alexf (22 Jun 2016)

Or you could make your own Pro-Edge type sharpener with an Aldi belt sander at 29.99.


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## woodpig (22 Jun 2016)

I already had a BDS250 so I carried out some simple mods. :lol:


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## Rhossydd (22 Jun 2016)

Yes, you can build a vertical belt linisher for less.
What you miss is the quality build of the tool rests/jigs that makes different setting so accurate, easy and repeatable.
Plus they do hold their value rather better.


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## sploo (23 Jun 2016)

I'm a new turner (so new I don't even have a lathe). I sharpen plane irons and bevel edge chisels by hand, and so only have a really cheap and nasty grinder - with a very coarse (and fairly wobbly) wheel.

It occurs to me that at minimum I'll need a jig for the grinder (~£100) and probably a better wheel (e.g. an O'Donnell 'Ruby' at ~£20). If I did go for a decent grinder (Creusen?) I'm then looking at another couple of hundred notes.

So... is the obvious answer to just buy the ProEdge? It looks as though the Deluxe model contains everything I'd need for starters (Skew Jig, Fingernail Profiler and Standard Gouge Jig) with the exception of maybe a 60 grit belt for initial shaping?


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## Dalboy (23 Jun 2016)

sploo":1iyolu5k said:


> I'm a new turner (so new I don't even have a lathe). I sharpen plane irons and bevel edge chisels by hand, and so only have a really cheap and nasty grinder - with a very coarse (and fairly wobbly) wheel.
> 
> It occurs to me that at minimum I'll need a jig for the grinder (~£100) and probably a better wheel (e.g. an O'Donnell 'Ruby' at ~£20). If I did go for a decent grinder (Creusen?) I'm then looking at another couple of hundred notes.
> 
> So... is the obvious answer to just buy the ProEdge? It looks as though the Deluxe model contains everything I'd need for starters (Skew Jig, Fingernail Profiler and Standard Gouge Jig) with the exception of maybe a 60 grit belt for initial shaping?




You can have a set up at a fraction of the cost, as long as the grinder runs true get a decent wheel white or ruby then make your own jigs. That will be enough to start with no need to go expensive. Have a look at Brian Clifford's site for home made jigs to get you started Here is one
I know the Pro Edge brigade will tell you otherwise. But why spend money for the sake of it.

And then there are the "All the gear but no idea brigade" :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## sploo (23 Jun 2016)

Dalboy":1bk6blb9 said:


> You can have a set up at a fraction of the cost, as long as the grinder runs true get a decent wheel white or ruby then make your own jigs. That will be enough to start with no need to go expensive. Have a look at Brian Clifford's site for home made jigs to get you started Here is one
> I know the Pro Edge brigade will tell you otherwise. But why spend money for the sake of it.
> 
> And then there are the "All the gear but no idea brigade" :lol: :lol: :lol:


The current grinder is a bit... wobbly... so maybe not a good start. My problem is that I'm all the gear, no idea, and none of the time these days to build DIY jigs :wink: (though I will take a look at that site)

I saw there's a long grind for the ProEdge and thought "Pah, if you've got the standard one and a lathe (and a drill press) you'd easily replicate that with a bit of hardwood or plastic". But it's a tenner... so I'd probably get it quicker by ordering one than finding the time to make one :|


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## woodpig (23 Jun 2016)

Two of my mates are in different financial positions. I recommended the Pro Edge to one and having bought the deluxe version with all the bits he's over the moon with it. The other one simply couldn't afford to spend a large amount of money and already had a bench grinder. I suggested the Sorby 447 sharpening system to him and he's finding it quite easy to put an edge on his wood turning tools. Both now have sharp tools and I no longer get "can you just sharpen this for me" which I have to say I didn't actually mind anyway! :wink: 

I should add that I don't just sharpen wood working tools on my rig and can also use it with a six inch wide belt for sanding wood. Cleaning between grinding wood and metal is a must though unless you like the smell of burning wood dust!


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## Rhossydd (23 Jun 2016)

Dalboy":16kf8m45 said:


> I know the Pro Edge brigade will tell you otherwise. But why spend money for the sake of it.


Totally agree.
A decent wheel and some home made jigs will get you set up to sharpen turning tools for a fraction of the price.

However if budget isn't an issue, yes go out and buy a SPE, you're unlikely to be disappointed and it does do a great job for hand tools too.
It's often repeated here that buying really good kit first time rarely disappoints in the long term and can actually save you money.


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## sploo (23 Jun 2016)

Rhossydd":39b1z0jh said:


> It's often repeated here that buying really good kit first time rarely disappoints in the long term and can actually save you money.


Indeed. I buy budget occasionally for something I won't use much (my best score probably being a 9" angle grinder that was cheaper than one hire - it lasted 10 years). But, it's definitely worth spending just a bit extra on something decent (if you can) as it makes life so much easier.

That's kinda my thinking with the ProEdge - I don't have that much time sadly, and messing about with homemade jigs (when I don't quite know what I'm trying to achieve in terms of the correct grind) vs just getting something that'll do it right out of the box is a relatively easy decision. Well, it would be if the ProEdge was £150 cheaper, but such is life.


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2016)

sploo":1kpe0gje said:


> ...I saw there's a long grind for the ProEdge and thought "Pah, if you've got the standard one and a lathe (and a drill press) you'd easily replicate that with a bit of hardwood or plastic". But it's a tenner... so I'd probably get it quicker by ordering one than finding the time to make one :|


Don't obsess about long grinds on bowl gouges, I went years before venturing along those Ellsworth and similar lines, and guess what mine have all migrated back to respectable sweep that's more than enough for my style of turning and materials handled.

Some folks like turning with a long grind and it suits the bulk of their preferred forms, watch a lot of east European turners working and they will do the same things with hooked tools on a pull stroke, sort your turning style out and branch out on the more esoteric forms and grinds when you come up against an access problem or someone demonstrates and gives you personal hands on access to see if you can handle the tool/method.


I made a point only yesterday when turning to take a real note of which portion of the gouge edge I was actually using, more than 80% of the gouge edge, the swept back portion, was just providing clearance so had no need of a sharpening touch up during the whole session, just the front 20% that was doing the cutting.

(Does mean you have to be aware of changing profile an correct now and then to maintain clearance but the shape had no bearing on how I used the tool other than anti-catch clearance.)


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## Rhossydd (23 Jun 2016)

CHJ":2y981g4j said:


> Don't obsess about long grinds on bowl gouges, I went years before venturing along those Ellsworth and similar lines, and guess what mine have all migrated back to respectable sweep that's more than enough for my style of turning and materials handled.


+1 to that.

Sometimes too much information just confuses, rather than helps, when getting started.

The long grinds are often rather a handful (ie catch a lot) in inexperienced hands. Mastering, or at least getting competent with, 'normal' profiles is a good starting point.


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## duncanh (23 Jun 2016)

The guy who was secretary/treasurer and general tool sharpener at our club wouldn't put a long grind on the bowl gouges of beginners because when you have a catch it can be huge. If you're just starting out better to learn on more standard grinds.


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## selectortone (24 Jun 2016)

Here's my modest sharpening station. The Record Power grinder was, if memory serves, a penny under £60.00 on a Yandles sale day and the two jigs together were about £50.00 off ebay (they are on there regularly). I improved the tilting platform with a Bristol locking handle, again off ebay. I splashed out on a CBN wheel from Axminster (£105.00) after using one at my teacher's place but the two white wheels I had on there did a perfectly adequate job.

I do my bowl and spindle gouges on the CBN wheel and my scrapers on the white one. Skews I tend to sharpen by hand with a diamond hone; that way I don't disturb the scraper angle on the platform. I was a guitar builder/repairer before I retired so I'm used to sharpening flat chisels by hand. 

So, I'm into that lot for a little over two hundred quid, half of which was for the not totally essential but absolutely fabulous CBN wheel. The important thing as far as I'm concerned is that the rig is right at my elbow when I'm turning and putting a quick edge on a tool is very easy and quick. There's nothing worse than fannying about with ancillary gear when all you want to do is turn.


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## woodpig (25 Jun 2016)

duncanh":7btc2t9k said:


> To all you pro edge users - have you had a problem getting a long swept back grind? Last time I saw Martin Pidgeon he said that there was an issue with the Proedge which meant that some grinds were difficult/impossible to do on the machine. This includes one of the grinds that he prefers and would probably include several of mine.
> 
> Any thoughts?



Just seen this, no problem on even extra long grinds:

https://youtu.be/k-nTHpfcwkQ


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## Robbo3 (26 Jun 2016)

I notice on the Youtube video that woodpig posted that the pro-set jig gave the grind angle rather than the amount the gouge protrudes.
Could anyone post the relevant measurements for each angle, please.


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## CHJ (26 Jun 2016)

Robbo3":2ultmai7 said:


> Could anyone post the relevant measurements for each angle, please.



On my setup and for the grinds I prefer I do not use the ProEdge tool extension difference to change angles.
I set my Gouges at 50mm extension with a drop in block which is easier to use and adjust the nose angle with the extended pivot block, this also aids in better tool swing clearance for the level of swept back wings I personally prefer.



The original ProEdge settings for differing nose angles with the short pivot block were as far as I know:-
Head set at 120deg.

35 degrees, 112mm
40 degrees, 84mm
45 degrees, 62mm
50 degrees, 44mm


Sorry for the disjointed edits, someone decided to pull the plug at the exchange for an hour.


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## J-G (26 Jun 2016)

Robbo3":16g7wayu said:


> I notice on the Youtube video that woodpig posted that the pro-set jig gave the grind angle rather than the amount the gouge protrudes.
> Could anyone post the relevant measurements for each angle, please.


Essentially - No - because the protrusion depends not only on the angle but also the diameter of the gouge and the distance from the belt to the jig guide (Vee block)

I can tell you the protrusion per mm from belt to guide ...

15º - 3.73
30º - 1.73
45º - 1
60º - 0.577

... but this doesn't tell you the whole story since the gouge diameter will affect the distance as well.

It will be easy to measure the distance from the belt to the bottom of the Vee block and I can give you the distance from the bottom of the Vee to the centre of the gouge based upon the gouge diameter (assuming a standard 90º Vee) ...

12mm Ø - 8.48
15mm Ø - 10.6
18mm Ø - 12.73
20mm Ø - 17.77

... you will then need to add the height of the gouge from the centre-line to the top - which I'm sure you will appreciate will change depending upon the orientation - ie. as you rotate the gouge clock-wise or anti.

Given a 12mm Gouge with a thickness of (say) 10mm, a belt to bottom of Vee distance of (say) 20mm - we can calculate that the top of the gouge at the lowest point will be 20 + 8.48 + 4 = 32.48mm above the belt at the front of the Vee Block. Assuming you want a 30º grind then the protrusion will be 32.48 x 1.73 = 56.19mm.

Whether this is any benefit to you or not I cannot say but I hope it can show you how the protrusion is affected by many factors and can be derived.

I don't use a ProEdge (so don't know specific dimensions) or any other form of linisher based grinding aid - I do all my sharpening by hand on a 6" grinder as I was taught by my father and apprentice supervisor(s) many years ago


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## Robbo3 (27 Jun 2016)

Thanks gents.

Apologies for hijacking the thread.

I can add that 60° requires a 30mm protrusion on a standard fingernail grind.

I found this by setting the table to 60° & rolling the tool for a straight across grind ie, non fingernail, then transferring the gouge to the gouge holder, covering the tip with marker pen & adjusting the protrusion until a complete line of ink was removed. Probably not the most scientific method but hopefully accurate enough to suffice.


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## woodpig (28 Jun 2016)

I thought the idea on the video of flattening the gouge first was a good idea. I must try that on my non Sorby setup! :wink:


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## Robbo3 (29 Jun 2016)

woodpig":3klmjlnn said:


> I thought the idea on the video of flattening the gouge first was a good idea.



I agree. It's not knowing what shape to aim for that causes confusion.
More on different grinds for different flute shapes,
- http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm
- http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

& some Youtube 
- Bob Hamilton (standard to side grind) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAocVE7X_3U
- LJ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zUph9zEjck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3liDhY_zxSc)
- Dan Douthart (Gwinnett 1h30m) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0iuJgg7zus


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## Bigbud78 (4 Jul 2016)

Thanks for all the discussion, been away for a few weeks and have still not made my mind up but found an idea for a tool to setup the jig I have so might give that a go before I decide.

The PE is still the front runner though with a CBN wheel and better jigs in 2nd


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## Bigbud78 (6 Jul 2016)

So if I was to get the Sorby do I need the Proset & Long Grind Jig ? Yandles have the lot for £340 or I could just go for the delux set from poolewood for £320.


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## sploo (6 Jul 2016)

Bigbud78":rdpl0mb9 said:


> So if I was to get the Sorby do I need the Proset & Long Grind Jig ? Yandles have the lot for £340 or I could just go for the delux set from poolewood for £320.


I ordered the complete set from Yandles. The Proset and long grind jig look nice, and I think are probably worth the extra cash.

Whether you need them is up to whether you're going to do some long grinds of gouges. As a totally new turner I've no idea myself, but for the tiny difference in cost I thought it was worth getting them.

They also ship a Trizact belt with that kit. Unfortunately, the extra bits Yandles add are obviously not in the Sorby Deluxe box, and were just placed inside the shipping box. No problem for the Proset and long grind jig, but the Trizact belt didn't take kindly to being slam-dunked by the ProEdge box in transit and probably isn't usable as a result.


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## Bigbud78 (6 Jul 2016)

sploo":3jncfd96 said:


> Bigbud78":3jncfd96 said:
> 
> 
> > So if I was to get the Sorby do I need the Proset & Long Grind Jig ? Yandles have the lot for £340 or I could just go for the delux set from poolewood for £320.
> ...



Have you contacted them about the belt, surely they will sort it for you ?


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## sploo (6 Jul 2016)

Bigbud78":1bigxdmm said:


> Have you contacted them about the belt, surely they will sort it for you ?


Yep; sent an email on Saturday, but no answer.

EDIT: Rather timely, I got an email this evening saying they'd ship out a replacement belt


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## Bigbud78 (11 Jul 2016)

Ordered the Sorby and it has arrived, looking forward to sharp tools


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## sploo (11 Jul 2016)

Bigbud78":2luq3uv9 said:


> Ordered the Sorby and it has arrived, looking forward to sharp tools


I've only used it once (on a roughing gouge and a parting tool) but the results were fine. Given I've no prior experience with wood turning chisels or the ProEdge I guess that's good.


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## BearTricks (12 Jul 2016)

selectortone":38du1bx3 said:


> Here's my modest sharpening station. The Record Power grinder was, if memory serves, a penny under £60.00 on a Yandles sale day and the two jigs together were about £50.00 off ebay (they are on there regularly). I improved the tilting platform with a Bristol locking handle, again off ebay. I splashed out on a CBN wheel from Axminster (£105.00) after using one at my teacher's place but the two white wheels I had on there did a perfectly adequate job.
> 
> I do my bowl and spindle gouges on the CBN wheel and my scrapers on the white one. Skews I tend to sharpen by hand with a diamond hone; that way I don't disturb the scraper angle on the platform. I was a guitar builder/repairer before I retired so I'm used to sharpening flat chisels by hand.
> 
> So, I'm into that lot for a little over two hundred quid, half of which was for the not totally essential but absolutely fabulous CBN wheel. The important thing as far as I'm concerned is that the rig is right at my elbow when I'm turning and putting a quick edge on a tool is very easy and quick. There's nothing worse than fannying about with ancillary gear when all you want to do is turn.



I'm umming and ahhing about getting a pro edge, but I might end up doing something like this instead considering it's a fraction of the cost. How's the vibration on the record power grinder? I have a cheap screwfix and it's unbearable.


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## CHJ (12 Jul 2016)

BearTricks":34yqr917 said:


> ..
> 
> How's the vibration on the record power grinder? I have a cheap screwfix and it's unbearable.



Have you trued up the wheels?

1. are they clamped concentric on the shaft with decent machined flanges or just cheap pressed steel with runout.
2. have wheels been trued up on sides as well as front.
3. is one a wide wheel with central recess, is recess running concentric with spindle.

Case 1. can be improved with taper card washers (old beer mats) or fitting replacement machined clamping flanges.
Case 2.&3. can be achieved by diamond dressing the wheels.

The motor may be out of balance but this is rarity in my experience.


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## selectortone (12 Jul 2016)

BearTricks":3qjo7eg2 said:


> How's the vibration on the record power grinder? I have a cheap screwfix and it's unbearable.



It's very smooth. It's screwed to a bench I built with a top of 3/4" ply. There is no vibration at all. I'm 100% happy with it. As stated above, the wheels need to be true.


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## Bigbud78 (27 Jul 2016)

Sorby user's can I question RE: spindle and bowl gouge angles ? Whats everyone using ?

Ive put a standard onto my spindle gouges all at 35deg's but was going to buy a 3/8th to put a finger nail grind on for finial work but found that using the proset the over hang is massive for 35 degs! Anyone noticed this ?

Also going for a fingernail grind on my bowl gouges whats recommended angle ? 50 ?


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## CHJ (27 Jul 2016)

I personally don't use the proset method of setting the gouge protrusion in the jig.

I set the bulk of my regular users at 50mm protrusion in a setting block, (much easier and consistent to set) and use the differing hole positions in the 3 hole pivot block to adjust the nose angle.

The closest to the pivot for my normal bowl gouges and the outer hole for my steep nose angle for addressing the bottom 1/3rd. of bowls. 

I've got to go back up to the shed to buff a bowl, I'll take some pictures and angle measurements.

Edit:- But this would not give you a 35 deg. of course, I have an additional jig set on the grindstone for that I'll have to sort it out and check.


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## woodpig (27 Jul 2016)

Bigbud78":25lbjfr4 said:


> Sorby user's can I question RE: spindle and bowl gouge angles ? Whats everyone using ?
> 
> Ive put a standard onto my spindle gouges all at 35deg's but was going to buy a 3/8th to put a finger nail grind on for finial work but found that using the proset the over hang is massive for 35 degs! Anyone noticed this ?
> 
> Also going for a fingernail grind on my bowl gouges whats recommended angle ? 50 ?



I couldn't tell you what angle I use but I sometimes put a secondary angle on a spindle gouge to give it some clearance.
I learnt this idea from a Cindy Drozda video but it can be seen here on a bowl gouge, about 19 mins in if you want to skip the rest.

https://youtu.be/AAocVE7X_3U

If I find the CD video I'll post a link.

Found it:

https://youtu.be/0ZOVj2Pb0y0


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## CHJ (27 Jul 2016)

Setting Block. 50mm.





Basic Bowl gouge on ProEdge with Jig set to 120 deg.

Three hole pivot



Original pivot, needed if your gouges are getting short in the steel due to handle fouling.




Results in a gouge with 45 deg to flute nose angle.




My bottom of bowl go-to gouge




in outer of the three hole pivot positions results in a 61 deg to flute nose angle.






But as many others have said before there is no right and wrong angles, it's a case of trying and seeing what angle best suits the way you hold the tools and the way you approach the work with your particular setup, the more you practice the more you are likely to get a feel for what suits you best and find easiest to get a good finish with.


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## sploo (27 Jul 2016)

Chas - thanks for the photos. As a brand new turner (with a Sorby) I'm keen to learn more, so this is useful.



woodpig":1yhf3i4j said:


> Found it:
> 
> https://youtu.be/0ZOVj2Pb0y0


That's a really useful video. One of the things I'm struggling (with books, and even many videos) is to see the subtlies of exactly how a tool is controlled, and what part of the cutting edge is being used. I haven't seen any of Drozda's videos before, but whilst that was intended to demonstrate her particular grind, it was very helpful in understanding the required movement for different cuts.


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## CHJ (28 Jul 2016)

One of the most significant things you can do to get good gouge control is to keep the tool handle tucked into your body and control its path by pivoting you body not just your arms. Of course there are many situations when this is not possible but if you once experience the smooth flow of a cut by swinging your body you will translate a similar feel and support endeavour to other cuts.


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## Bigbud78 (28 Jul 2016)

What grind would you suggest on a 3/8th spindle gouge ? I'm going to buy another to grind a detail gouge.
The sorby book recommends a 45 degree round grind, from what Ive read 35 degrees with a small fingernail grind seem the way to go ?


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## Random Orbital Bob (28 Jul 2016)

45 is good....35 is really for a detail gouge as the bevel is longer allowing access to narrow crevices at the base of beads/details. Many ppl use 30 for a detail gouge ie even finer but I've not been able to get to that fine on the PE due to handle fouling. 45 is good for a regular spindle gouge though.


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## CHJ (28 Jul 2016)

Until you have had a bit more experience I would stick to 45 deg or there about, there are other criteria that come into play when accessing detail that needs a shallower bevel that play a significant role in your ability to control a sliced cut etc. and the tendency to end up with a pointy profile if you are not carful with the abrasive dwell times can cause problems.

On my setup I add a 5mm spacer to my setting block making the tool extension 55mm.




And using the jig at 120 deg and the inner or short pivot block it results in a reasonably swept 45 deg. bevel.





When I've got a few minutes, (several requests to fill asap) I'll see what my detail gouge is set at but it's a home made unconventional animal and has not seen the PE yet.


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## sploo (28 Jul 2016)

CHJ":lo7lhibc said:


> One of the most significant things you can do to get good gouge control is to keep the tool handle tucked into your body and control its path by pivoting you body not just your arms. Of course there are many situations when this is not possible but if you once experience the smooth flow of a cut by swinging your body you will translate a similar feel and support endeavour to other cuts.


At the moment I'm more at the stage of what tool (and what movements) you'd use in order to create a particular shape. Getting good at making those movements smoothly will come later  

The discussion on bevel angles is very useful though. I have a Crown 3/8" spindle gouge that I've used straight out of the packet (no reshaping or even sharpening yet), and I've ended up with two of their 3/8" bowl gouges. I've used neither yet, but I'm wondering if I could do a swept back/fingernail grind on at least one? I suppose at the moment I don't really know what I don't know, and haven't done any cross grain / faceplate turning yet as I'm trying to take the time to learn some spindle skills first. Or I would be if I'd sorted out my got-a-lathe haven't-got-a-lathe saga...


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## CHJ (28 Jul 2016)

Checked my tool rack whilst in shed and noted the 'pointiest' conventional spindle gouge I have.
Don't do much spindle or spindle detail work so they are not at the forefront of my tool armoury.

I checked its nose bevel angle and its still only 40 deg. in relation to the flute and it obviously needed some bevel heal relief for clearance on whatever tasks I last used it for..







It has always been sharpened on the grindstone with my own set of jig parameters but I offered it up to the PE and to achieve the same 40 deg. nose and sweep it had to be set at a 95mm protrusion in my jig.


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