# Designing some side tables, out of comfort zone, input need please!



## Rorton

So the wife says she wants some new side tables for the lounge - posted a previous thread to get the colour to match up with an existing mantle.

Im not a furniture person, Ive build some cabinets for the bathroom from pine then painted, and a few other bits for the garage out of necessity, but nothing like this which will be made out of oak

We have some 15 year old tables that were from a b&q or similar, which are covered in some fake leather type material, so I put together a sketch roughly based on their size.

Im aiming to make out of oak, and did think about a drawer in the unit - the unit will be 'side on' as it were, so the shorter length would house the drawer.

The top is 500mmm x 335mm, legs are 410mm high, and top is 22mm thick, the stretchers 30mm deep x 20mm







Currently looks rubbish I know, I understand there is an element of having correct proportions to a piece of furniture, so need some help with that.

Do I put some stretchers at the bottom too, and perhaps then lay a shelf on that instead of a drawer (the drawer won't be that wide I guess)

Should I taper the 2 inside faces of the legs, and should the taper start after the stretchers, how much taper should I have. -to I taper 10mm on each face, so the bottom of the legs are 30mm square.

Joinary, im assuming would be best being mortice and tennon - tennons will be simple enough to do on the table saw with the crosscut sled, mortices, not so much. Maybe I could get away with a groove in the leg, starting at the top, and then coming down so far which I could cut with the router, then the tennon could sit in this grove.

I was looking at pocket holes too.

Anyway, this is my next project, so any help appreciated, pics of any ones work for ideas etc 

Im a power tool guy, absolutely hopeless with a chisel, I guess if a hole was made with a machine, I could open it out, but bear in mind im not really a hand tool person


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## TheUnicorn

I would do a trial run in pine as it doesn't sound like you are that confident, and pine will be cheaper to make mistakes on. 

I would be tempted to taper the legs

If making the table is a chore rather than a project that you will enjoy then I'd certainly consider looking what is available to buy premade, or at the very least comparing the cost of premade rather than homemade, as I see it if you are not enjoying it, you should at least be saving money


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## Jameshow

Hi my cheat on long mortices it to use the buscuit joiner presuming you have one to make two clean groves and chisel out the middle.

Short ones are simply squaring up a hole drilled with a pillar drill.

I recently made a bedside table with simalar proportions.

2" legs tapered to 1"

6in sides 4" would suffice on a table and 3/4" top 16"sq.




Just don't be put off the perfect work on here we all have to start somewhere!!


Cheers James


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## Fitzroy

The aprons in my mind need to be taller, also at only 30mm high aprons the tenons are going to be max 20mm tall, think you need 10mm more. 

The piece looks bulky as everting is square. Tapered legs and a good chamfer on the top will reduce the weight of the piece. 

Making a prototype in pine will let you play with taper, edge chamfer, apron height (glue a bit on) until you get a form you like. 

My hand tool skills aren’t the best, I made a table with similar joinery and cut tenons on the band saw and table saw. Used the drill press to make mortises and a chisel to square the off. Worked out well. 

I also find design the most challenging aspect of furniture so I steal ruthlessly. Look online, go visit John Lewis and take photos and measurements of things you like. 

Fitz


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## Rorton

Thanks, that’s a good call about the pine.
im happy to try and get as much right in sketchup as I can before going to cut the material, my main concern is it all being out of proportion with stretchers/aprons too shallow, legs too thick, top not hanging over enough 

don’t see it as a chore, quite looking forward to something different,


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## Rorton

Fitzroy said:


> The aprons in my mind need to be taller, also at only 30mm high aprons the tenons are going to be max 20mm tall, think you need 10mm more.
> 
> The piece looks bulky as everting is square. Tapered legs and a good chamfer on the top will reduce the weight of the piece.
> 
> Making a prototype in pine will let you play with taper, edge chamfer, apron height (glue a bit on) until you get a form you like.
> 
> My hand tool skills aren’t the best, I made a table with similar joinery and cut tenons on the band saw and table saw. Used the drill press to make mortises and a chisel to square the off. Worked out well.
> 
> I also find design the most challenging aspect of furniture so I steal ruthlessly. Look online, go visit John Lewis and take photos and measurements of things you like.
> 
> Fitz


Thanks, nice table. Ok, so I can increase the size of the aprons, would 50mm be too big?

if I went with a drawer they would be much deeper. 

will go for a pine model though, that seems to be a common suggestion. Don’t have a drill press either, so limited to router either hand held or table or table saw. hence the thought about the mortise not having a ’top’ as it were so a slot in the leg for a tenon to sit in, but I guess that the top of the mortise and the tennon being completely surrounded by wood is where the strength is


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## Felix

I have only been woodworking seriously for the last 2 -3 years. I try and steer away from tools like sketchup (although I do use it) because it kind of lures you into rectilinear forms. You have to think about how our predecessors used to make absolutely exquisite furniture and the tools they had to do it. I also shy away from slavishly following what other people are doing. Sure - look at what is going on and what other people are doing (or have done - and there's a lot of it), but you have to take all of what you like from that and mould it into what you want to make.

What really got me into woodworking was watching a programme callled 'The New Yankee Workshop'. From watching that programme I thought power tools were the defacto way of making furniture. I sold my 750cc sportsbike and bought a table saw because I thought I could build pretty much anything in 1/2 hr <lol>

A planer-thicknesser and a bandsaw soon followed.

I bumbled along for a while making non-descript woody things with the equipment I bought - and then I discovered ......... hand tools....... and moulding planes and router planes and all sorts of other equipment that totally transformed my view of woodworking. Now I can't get enough of hand tool working. I do use machinery, but this is primarily to get the stock to 'sawn' size and then use hand tools to get to finished size. 

It is well worth investing the time and energy into learning how to use hand tools. They will provide an almost infinite number of possibilities with regards to what you can produce.

Woodworking is not all about straight lines......

Here's an image of an oak hall table I made that has tapered legs and the stretchers between the legs are curved (although you can just see it in the table1.jpg image).....


Let your imagination run free....... machines definitely have their place, but hand tools help to make fine furniture.......

Good luck
Dean


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## Rorton

bowmaster said:


> I have only been woodworking seriously for the last 2 -3 years. I try and steer away from tools like sketchup (although I do use it) because it kind of lures you into rectilinear forms. You have to think about how our predecessors used to make absolutely exquisite furniture and the tools they had to do it. I also shy away from slavishly following what other people are doing. Sure - look at what is going on and what other people are doing (or have done - and there's a lot of it), but you have to take all of what you like from that and mould it into what you want to make.
> 
> What really got me into woodworking was watching a programme callled 'The New Yankee Workshop'. From watching that programme I thought power tools were the defacto way of making furniture. I sold my 750cc sportsbike and bought a table saw because I thought I could build pretty much anything in 1/2 hr <lol>
> 
> A planer-thicknesser and a bandsaw soon followed.
> 
> I bumbled along for a while making non-descript woody things with the equipment I bought - and then I discovered ......... hand tools....... and moulding planes and router planes and all sorts of other equipment that totally transformed my view of woodworking. Now I can't get enough of hand tool working. I do use machinery, but this is primarily to get the stock to 'sawn' size and then use hand tools to get to finished size.
> 
> It is well worth investing the time and energy into learning how to use hand tools. They will provide an almost infinite number of possibilities with regards to what you can produce.
> 
> Woodworking is not all about straight lines......
> 
> Here's an image of an oak hall table I made that has tapered legs and the stretchers between the legs are curved (although you can just see it in the table1.jpg image).....
> 
> 
> Let your imagination run free....... machines definitely have their place, but hand tools help to make fine furniture.......
> 
> Good luck
> Dean


Thanks, nice table too.

12 months ago, I was struggling along with a circular saw and a straight edge. Cutting with a handsaw doesn’t bode well for me, no idea why, just no practice I guess, so the table saw has been a revelation to me, as I can get stuff perfectly square and butt joints go together without gaps, so this spurred on my enthusiasm.

im sure in time I’ll get to hand tools when my confidence grows some more, my dad did a lot of woodwork in his spare time and does have a number of tools, so will try and beg and borrow those. Space is a consideration too for storing everything.
I loved the new Yankee Workshop - Remember this, there is no more important safety rule than to wear these: safety glasses. Norm is great


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## Felix

Rorton said:


> Remember this, there is no more important safety rule than to wear these: safety glasses. Norm is great


you said it <lol>


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## Jameshow

bowmaster said:


> I have only been woodworking seriously for the last 2 -3 years. I try and steer away from tools like sketchup (although I do use it) because it kind of lures you into rectilinear forms. You have to think about how our predecessors used to make absolutely exquisite furniture and the tools they had to do it. I also shy away from slavishly following what other people are doing. Sure - look at what is going on and what other people are doing (or have done - and there's a lot of it), but you have to take all of what you like from that and mould it into what you want to make.
> 
> What really got me into woodworking was watching a programme callled 'The New Yankee Workshop'. From watching that programme I thought power tools were the defacto way of making furniture. I sold my 750cc sportsbike and bought a table saw because I thought I could build pretty much anything in 1/2 hr <lol>
> 
> A planer-thicknesser and a bandsaw soon followed.
> 
> I bumbled along for a while making non-descript woody things with the equipment I bought - and then I discovered ......... hand tools....... and moulding planes and router planes and all sorts of other equipment that totally transformed my view of woodworking. Now I can't get enough of hand tool working. I do use machinery, but this is primarily to get the stock to 'sawn' size and then use hand tools to get to finished size.
> 
> It is well worth investing the time and energy into learning how to use hand tools. They will provide an almost infinite number of possibilities with regards to what you can produce.
> 
> Woodworking is not all about straight lines......
> 
> Here's an image of an oak hall table I made that has tapered legs and the stretchers between the legs are curved (although you can just see it in the table1.jpg image).....
> 
> 
> Let your imagination run free....... machines definitely have their place, but hand tools help to make fine furniture.......
> 
> Good luck
> Dean


Nice oak table definitely one to copy. 

Cheers James


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## Felix

Rorton said:


> Thanks, nice table too.
> 
> 12 months ago, I was struggling along with a circular saw and a straight edge. Cutting with a handsaw doesn’t bode well for me, no idea why, just no practice I guess, so the table saw has been a revelation to me, as I can get stuff perfectly square and butt joints go together without gaps, so this spurred on my enthusiasm.
> 
> im sure in time I’ll get to hand tools when my confidence grows some more, my dad did a lot of woodwork in his spare time and does have a number of tools, so will try and beg and borrow those. Space is a consideration too for storing everything.
> I loved the new Yankee Workshop - Remember this, there is no more important safety rule than to wear these: safety glasses. Norm is great


If you or your dad's got a good square, a sharp chisel and a good tenon saw you can start cutting your own mortice and tenons in order to practice. Look at either Learn Woodworking Online With Paul Sellers- Woodworking Masterclasses or www.theenglishwoodworker.com - there is a wealth of information on hand tool woodworking on each site. You don't need a huge number of tools to start hand tool woodworking - although as you get better there is a 'need' to acquire more tools......on that score - resistance is futile.........

Give it a go

Cheers
Dean


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## TJC

Unless you know what you'll keep in the proposed drawer I suspect it would be too small to be much use, I wouldn't add one myself. I also think you'll find it easier to make a well weighted piece without the drawer, especially as it would open on the shorter side.


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## Rorton

bit more of a play about

Legs taper in from 40mm thick at the top, to 20mm at the bottom, just a taper on the 2 insides, and the taper starts 100mm from the top Legs also have a 3mm (1/8th inch) round over 

Aprons extended, they are now 60mm, and they have a 3mm (1/8th inch) round over on the bottom outside edge (not sure if this should be a 45 chamfer/bevel?)

Top now has a chamfer, there is a section of the top that is 10mm thick, and then from there it tapers in 20mm - need a round over to match the legs around the top of the table and on the 4 corners I guess?


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## TJC

For me the top sits a tiny bit too small, either less chamfer or more overhang, but it's basically there....


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## Rorton

thanks, was trying to get the top looking thin, but agree that its a bit of a wedge instead of elegant. Its a 20mm ish top, so my thought was leave 10mm 'flat or normal' and then start the taper - I could bring the legs in to make the overhang bigger, governed about the space available to make the overhang much bigger with the same footprint


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## Rorton

TJC said:


> Unless you know what you'll keep in the proposed drawer I suspect it would be too small to be much use, I wouldn't add one myself. I also think you'll find it easier to make a well weighted piece without the drawer, especially as it would open on the shorter side.


yep, good idea - also bit ambitious too  the idea was for remote controls to go in


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## Rorton

legs moved in to make the overhang bigger...











the start of the leg taper is now 10 mm from the bottom of the apron to match the 10mm apron reveal


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## Cabinetman

Everything that’s already been said, except the computer drawing method that you have is throwing everything askew in that the grain is going around the legs instead of up-and-down and it’s throwing your eye out by it’s unnatural form.
It seems very strange to me now, but I suppose you are starting where I did when I was a child with woodwork, I’m sorry this isn’t meant to be disparaging, back then a mortise and tenon joint was an awfully difficult thing that was as slack as a pair of whores drawers.
It really is encouraging that you are prepared to start on this road as an adult, I wish you the very best of luck and please don’t be discouraged by your first efforts with handtools. We, I am sure won’t laugh and will encourage you every step of the way. Ian
Edit, yes no drawer at this point, and the proportions look ok to me.


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## Rorton

yeah, It may be better without any colour, was just trying to make it look more like a table and less like some lines! I'll keep refining and use the pine test version to have a go at a few joints at little expense (well less that oak anyway!


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## Rorton

ok, mix of oak and walnut now, as the walnut texture I have has grain going the right way!











Should the legs go right to the very edge of where the chamfer start for the top, or should they be set back a bit - is 6th revel on the apron to big at 10mm - I chose that as it puts the apron dead in the middle of the leg. 

Would 5mm, or even less be better?

This is with a 3mm reveal






For the mortice and tennons - the apron is now 60mm deep and 20mm thick, so should I have a 5mm shoulder front and back, and then a 10 or 15mm shoulder top and bottom? Should it protrude out 10mm/15mm - bit like this...


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## undergroundhunter

That's looking good now!
Mortices can be cut with a router but I find it quite a tedious job, for me its quicker to use a chisel and mallet. I have a spare 1/4 mortice chisel kicking about if you PM me your address I will pop it in the post.

Just for inspiration here are a couple of smaller tables I have made.











Regards 
Matt


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## Jameshow

A couple of thoughts. 

Why not put a drawer in it?!
Place to put the TV remote radio times, glasses etc? 

If it's close up to other furniture the the table edge isn't if too much importance. 

As to tenon's I used 12mm thick tenons in 18mm pine and 18mm from top and bottom however that was with a drawer so with your apron being smaller 12mm would be fine. 

With the attention to detail your putting in the design stage, I'm sure you'll master the build with great acclaim! 

Cheers James


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## Fitzroy

Rorton said:


> For the mortice and tennons - the apron is now 60mm deep and 20mm thick, so should I have a 5mm shoulder front and back, and then a 10 or 15mm shoulder top and bottom? Should it protrude out 10mm/15mm - bit like this...
> 
> View attachment 96898



Looking good! The distance at the top of the tenon is to ensure there is strength remaining in the short grain at the top of the leg mortice. The bottom of the tenon has no such issue and the shoulder depth is just to cover the mortice edge and give a nice tight line between apron and leg, I’d have this 5mm to keep the tenon as tall as possible. 

F.


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## Cabinetman

That’s looking better, the reveal, three mil is a little small I think five or six. You should base the mortise width on what chisel you have, as the legs are much thicker than the rails you can have a tenon almost the thickness of the rail with just a small shoulder.


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## Rorton

undergroundhunter said:


> That's looking good now!
> Mortices can be cut with a router but I find it quite a tedious job, for me its quicker to use a chisel and mallet. I have a spare 1/4 mortice chisel kicking about if you PM me your address I will pop it in the post.
> 
> Just for inspiration here are a couple of smaller tables I have made.
> View attachment 96899
> 
> 
> View attachment 96900
> 
> 
> Regards
> Matt




Thank you so much for the kind offer, message on the way!

Nice tables too!



Jameshow said:


> A couple of thoughts.
> 
> Why not put a drawer in it?!
> Place to put the TV remote radio times, glasses etc?
> 
> If it's close up to other furniture the the table edge isn't if too much importance.
> 
> As to tenon's I used 12mm thick tenons in 18mm pine and 18mm from top and bottom however that was with a drawer so with your apron being smaller 12mm would be fine.
> 
> With the attention to detail your putting in the design stage, I'm sure you'll master the build with great acclaim!
> 
> Cheers James



Thanks for the input, I did think a drawer too, but as someone else mentioned, the short end of the table is quite small (185mm now) so by the time a drawer box is in, it would be close to 6 inch which may not be much use? 

How about 5 mm shoulder on each side and the bottom, and then 15mm at the top, should given though material in the top of the leg then, and make the tenon 40mm x 10mm and protrude 15mm into the leg (is 15mm into the leg enough?

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I have to see something first hence the sketch frenzy, before I go to work!



Fitzroy said:


> Looking good! The distance at the top of the tenon is to ensure there is strength remaining in the short grain at the top of the leg mortice. The bottom of the tenon has no such issue and the shoulder depth is just to cover the mortice edge and give a nice tight line between apron and leg, I’d have this 5mm to keep the tenon as tall as possible.
> 
> F.



Thanks , as above, 5mm all round for a shoulder, with 15mm at the top to leave some meat in the top of the leg - would that be OK - and then a 15mm protrusion

Ive moved the legs in from the edge of where the bevel starts 5mm also


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## AndyT

I think you're there. 

I know what you are going through. Several years ago I made a little side table out of oak, salvaged from my parents' old bedroom suite. I spent ages trying to work out how much the top should overhang the frame, how much the stretchers should be set back, all those variables. In the end the design was mostly decided by needing to tuck in between the sofa and the door.

Top is 440 x 310mm, 20mm thick, with a 5mm wide chamfer on the top (because it's a low table, viewed from above).

Legs are 45mm square, overall height is 395mm.


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## Rorton

Cabinetman said:


> That’s looking better, the reveal, three mil is a little small I think five or six. You should base the mortise width on what chisel you have, as the legs are much thicker than the rails you can have a tenon almost the thickness of the rail with just a small shoulder.


thanks that makes sense! so a 2-3mm shoulder on the 3 sides is sufficient, the 'face' of the shoulder mating to the leg doesn't add much to the strength of the joint? Just leave enough at the top to the top of the leg has some strength?

reveal moved to 5mm now, and also moved the legs 5mm in from the start of the bevel as they looked to close


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## Rorton

AndyT said:


> I think you're there.
> 
> I know what you are going through. Several years ago I made a little side table out of oak, salvaged from my parents' old bedroom suite. I spent ages trying to work out how much the top should overhang the frame, how much the stretchers should be set back, all those variables. In the end the design was mostly decided by needing to tuck in between the sofa and the door.
> 
> Top is 440 x 310mm, 20mm thick, with a 5mm wide chamfer on the top (because it's a low table, viewed from above).
> 
> Legs are 45mm square, overall height is 395mm.
> 
> View attachment 96904
> 
> 
> View attachment 96905


thanks, exactly that!

My overall dimension (the top) is dictating the space, so the rest is following that. I notice you put your chamfer on the top, any particular reason or just a design decision (looks great btw!)


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## Jameshow

I'd keep your mortice and tenons width a standard size 12 / 15 / 18mm.
Then cutting out the mortices is much simpler.

Cheers James


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## Mike Jordan

I have a couple of suggestions to make the process enjoyable and a learning experience. First thing would be to get hold of a piece of 6mm birch ply and set out the table in pencil on that, you will be able to see in full size the look of the item and alter it until satisfied. Sizes can also be lifted directly from the drawing, it's old fashioned thinking but foolproof. The second will distress some of the "woodworkers" on this site but will save you money and time and assist you to gain skills, just forget the dowel jigs, biscuit jointers, and pocket hole tools. They are rubbishy methods of making anything. The only gain from purchasing these devices will be for the tool merchant, there are always better methods using hand tools or conventional machines. Borrow or buy the hand tools required and learn how to use them, the YouTube sites will show how it's done. Mortise and tenon joints are easy to do and the,tools used cost very little in comparison to the "wonder tools" and last for years.
Enjoy the experience.





W


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## Cabinetman

Absolutely agree Mike, I sometimes feel a bit of a dinosaur on here when I have to look up what the piece of (usually expensive) equipment people are talking about is and what it does, I'm usually quite underwhelmed. 
I buy quite thick white card about 24“ x 18“ which I then put on a board with a thin glass cover for my drawings, joints I draw full-size, as you say it’s relatively fool proof and often shows up what will go wrong with the joint. Ian


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## jcassidy

Mortice & tenon joints were probably the first thing I was taught in vocational school as a 12 yo. Right after how-to-saw, probably. I remember the day I was allowed to use the morticer press...after about only 2 years of doing them by hand. I never understand why people think the joint is so complicated, they justify spending hundreds on gadgetery to do them. Make 'em the width of the chisel, make sure they're measured out properly, and try to meet in the middle.

On topic of design, I think its important to keep proportions in mind, rather than strict measurement to the millimetre. There are articles online about proportions which may be useful. This was the method I was taught, to step back and consider if the design looks right, and only then to measure up.
I only wish I'd paid more attention!


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## Felix

This is really an addendum to what* Mike Jordan* said about the setting out of your work - the setting out of your project on some material is called 'making a rod'. You can layout all the components of your project (or 1 of several components if they are the same dimensions) on it and use it as an 'aide-memoire' and as Mike said it is a good idea. It allows you to check that you are making your project as you designed it. When you have made a component you can lay it on the rod and it should fit exactly (if you made it correctly) It can also help you generate a cutting list of all the components you need and the amount of timber you will need in order to complete the project. 
Also, on larger projects a rod can also help to iron out design issues where things may or may not fit long before any timber is cut. You can make several rods for a given project so you're not restricted to trying to cram everything into one.

When making a rod my preference is to use some white conti-board or some other smooth faced material as it's easy to make modifications to your design. You don't need full sized sheets as you can layout your project on thin strips (mine tend to be 2.4m x 300mm x whatever thickness you have), but if you want to layout a full scale design then a full 2.4m x 1.2m sheet (or more) may be needed. It's well worth learning how to use them - and don't forget - if you have a power-cut (and I do periodically where I live) you can still make or use a rod whereas sketchup users would be screwed.......


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## Rorton

Thanks all for the input, some really valuable comments here. 

im in the age of the computer, hence sketchup, for me its part of the process and I enjoy that bit too. I can hopefully see all the joints etc and can generate a cutting list from it.

I think I’ll get some cheep cls timber and rip it to the sizes I need and put together a sample unit to see what it looks like. I could use the parts from that as templates for when imake it out of decent materials? I hope to make 2 tables so worth while getting the sample right before ruining a load of good oak!

I can have a go at the joints too and see what works. It may be router and then tidy up with chisel, will see how that one goes!! I can also make a tapering jig for the table saw so I can get the legs right (no bandsaw)

I’ll aim to make the tenons 18mm deep which lets me know how long the aprons need to be, the thickness may be slightly different depending on the timber I can get so will work out the layout for the joints on the pieces


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## recipio

At the end of the day I apply one criterion to everything I make -- is it _elegant_ ! All the classic pieces of furniture are 'classic' for that reason. They are timeless and elegant.
I think you are almost there -- the legs are still a bit chunky and 40 - 45 mm square is probably optimum for a table this size IMO.
Chopping mortises is a real chore if you ask me and I long ago switched over to floating tenons. The Beadlock system sold by www.rockler.com in the US is both cheap and very efficient. Best of luck !.


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## Rorton

recipio said:


> At the end of the day I apply one criterion to everything I make -- is it _elegant_ ! All the classic pieces of furniture are 'classic' for that reason. They are timeless and elegant.
> I think you are almost there -- the legs are still a bit chunky and 40 - 45 mm square is probably optimum for a table this size IMO.
> Chopping mortises is a real chore if you ask me and I long ago switched over to floating tenons. The Beadlock system sold by www.rockler.com in the US is both cheap and very efficient. Best of luck !.


Thanks. Ref the legs, at the moment they are 40mm square, tapering to 20mm at the bottom, with the taper just on the 2 insides, should I think about reducing this to be 30mm at the top and 20 at the bottom?

im determined to give the mortises a go, I’m sure if I was doing a lot then it would be a chore, but for the sake of this piece I’m willing to try


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## Felix

Rorton said:


> im determined to give the mortises a go,


It will be quicker to drill out a lot of the waste as close to the lines of your mortise as you dare and clean up the edges afterwards


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## recipio

40 mm square tapering to 20 mm sounds about right. Legs can be too 'skinny ' too. ! Ditto all the suggestions about drilling out the waste but some kind of drill press will greatly aid accuracy. I hate to waste material personally and if you put 50 mm tenons on the ends of ( say ) a 400mm rail you will have milled away 20% of the wood.! If you are intending doing more furniture making then a cheap doweling jig would make life much easier.


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## Rorton

I don’t have a drill press, but I do have a metal drill guide thing (alligator) which may work, otherwise, I can drop the workpiece onto the router in the table and cut it like I was cutting a slot and then square it out.
will try the 40mm legs and see how it looks.
I do have one of those wolfcraft doweling jigs but I didn’t really get on with it, may revisit it, cut some extra legs from the pine when doing the test piece and see how it goes, but everyone is spurring me on for the mortise and tenon so I’d hate to disappoint


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## Racers

Why square the ends? They will be long enough to be strong enough. Just cut the tenons shorter, or round the ends. 

Pete


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## Rorton

Wasn’t sure to be honest Pete. Does the material from the tenon not need to completely fill the mortise. didn’t think gaps top and bottom would be acceptable?


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## Trainee neophyte

I mentioned the other day that I am failing on mortices at the moment. I keep making projects with 40 mortice and tenon joints, which is a lot to attempt with a chisel. Perhaps I should have done though, as it might have been more accurate. The router did a less than perfect job.

Things I have failed at, in no particular order: 
Marking out. Stupid, I know, but if you don't put the marks in the right place, how can you cut accurately? Get a mortice gauge, or a marking knife, or both. Pencil lines just don't cut it (pun fully intended).​Controlling a router: the beast has has a life of its own and leaps around like a thing possessed. Jigs, clamps, fences etc to corral the monster are a must. Using a router table ought to help, but cutting to the (innacurate pencil) line and not past it is apparently beyond my ability. Stop blocks would help, but my workpiece was 2 metres long with 10 mortices spread along it, and the table considerably shorter than that. Need to find a solution for that. Also I must make some feather boards urgently. It's all about repeatability. Some of my mortices weren't just too long, but "J" shaped.  ​​Chiselling to the middle, but no further: YouTube is full of mortices with crisp, clean edges and no tear-out from going too far. My mortices don't look like that if cut by hand. Work to the middle from either side is eminently sensible, but cleaning up the last finishing touches it is just too easy to go too far and fall out of the other side, taking a big, ugly lump out at the same time.I rush things - bull in a china shop. Slow down. Really slow. Really, really slow.​​The above is an incomplete list of my failings compiled mostly for my benefit, but perhaps it may help someone else. They say "Measure twice, cut once", but it really ought to be "Think twice, cut once".
​


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## Cabinetman

I feel your pain and frustration, and I hope you can feel how cold damp and locked down we all are here back in Blighty! Sorry that doesn’t help really with the mortise and tenons, 
Do you have a pillar drill? You could fit a fence to run your wood against and drill most of it out, I certainly wouldn’t attempt to cut mortises with a router – they do tend to have a mind of their own haha. Random thought, how about putting the router cutter in the pillar drill, never tried it so please don’t blame me. Ian


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## billw

Trainee neophyte said:


> They say "Measure twice, cut once", but it really ought to be "Think twice, cut once"



Think
Measure
Think again
Measure again
Mark it up
Think about whether it looks right
Go for coffee
Come back with fresh eyes and realise you did it wrong
Think again
Measure again
Mark again
Cut
Wait five minutes
Realise you cut it wrong


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## spb

billw said:


> Think
> Measure
> Think again
> Measure again
> Mark it up
> Think about whether it looks right
> Go for coffee
> Come back with fresh eyes and realise you did it wrong
> Think again
> Measure again
> Mark again
> Cut
> Wait five minutes
> Realise you cut it wrong


Replace that last line with "realise you marked it right the first time and shouldn't have changed it". Far more infuriating that way.


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## Trainee neophyte

Cabinetman said:


> I feel your pain and frustration, and I hope you can feel how cold damp and locked down we all are here back in Blighty! Sorry that doesn’t help really with the mortise and tenons,
> Do you have a pillar drill? You could fit a fence to run your wood against and drill most of it out, I certainly wouldn’t attempt to cut mortises with a router – they do tend to have a mind of their own haha. Random thought, how about putting the router cutter in the pillar drill, never tried it so please don’t blame me. Ian


I have a "pillar drill" made of finest chinesium - one of Lidl ' s more interesting offerings. It is my intention to get better at this, so I think the next 40 mortise project will be hand tools only - the last mortise I cut _ought_ to be better than the first, you would think. Also, I should stop using cheapest wide grain soft pine. The search for the perfect mortise continues...


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## Racers

Rorton said:


> Wasn’t sure to be honest Pete. Does the material from the tenon not need to completely fill the mortise. didn’t think gaps top and bottom would be acceptable?


End grain gluing dosn't have any strength, its just the long grain of the sides that give the strength, so the ends don't have to be square or even fit, you have to watch the allignment when assembling but thats about the only drawback.
Its easer to wiggle out when test fitting as well.

Pete


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## Rorton

thanks Pete, it was more the top and bottom that I was concerned about. If I did this with the router, and made a slot with an arched top and bottom, the square tenon would only touch at the sides (green highlight) and the back if I get the length correct - but the 2 bits highlighted in red would have no material in them - I was assuming that it would be then prone to racking as the apron would have nothing solid to bear against - maybe not as important in a small side table - my train of thought was that a good mechanical joint, which is then secured with glue.


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## Sheffield Tony

Rorton said:


> Thanks , as above, 5mm all round for a shoulder, with 15mm at the top to leave some meat in the top of the leg - would that be OK - and then a 15mm protrusion
> 
> Ive moved the legs in from the edge of where the bevel starts 5mm also
> 
> View attachment 96903



I am surprised nobody has yet mentioned that this ought to be a haunched M&T.

My only other suggestion is that I'd not be drawn by the advice to drill out some of the waste. Unless it is a pretty big mortice and a brace and bit might be appropriate. Just get a proper mortice chisel, a big mallet and set to it. The correct mortice size is the width of the chisel you have, set the gauge to it and saw the tenon to suit. Remember to start near the middle of the mortice, only approaching the ends with light paring cuts to get a nice clean, accurately placed end without rounding over from levering. I find drilling it out strangely harder to produce a clean result, and knocking a square chisel into a series of round holes gives increased chance of spiltting the top of the leg.


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## Sheffield Tony

Sorry, didn't spot your last post - if you are going to use the router, why not saw the tenon a bit wider and round the ends to fit the hole ?


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## Rorton

thanks for both replies, had to lookup haunched M&T! so if I had a 1/4 Mortice chisel, that is enough based on the 20mm thickness of the apron, I shouldn't be aiming for double that width?

I could round the ends of the tenon I guess, hence my question about squaring out the hole left by a router if I went that route - I guess it doesnt matter if you square the router hole, or round the tenon to suit the routed hole?


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## spb

Rorton said:


> thanks for both replies, had to lookup haunched M&T! so if I had a 1/4 Mortice chisel, that is enough based on the 20mm thickness of the apron, I shouldn't be aiming for double that width?


Generally you want to be choosing your mortice chisel based on the thickness of the piece being morticed, so in this case the leg. Look at the joint in cross section, and you've got three pieces glued together - the tenon, and the two sides of the mortice surrounding it. You want the thinnest of those three to be as thick as possible.

If your two pieces are the same thickness, that means making the mortice roughly 1/3 of it. When they're different, then look at where they need to join, how much you can offset the tenon towards the centre of the morticed piece, and how thick you can make it without compromising the walls.

Of course, this is all theoretical - if what you've got is a 1/4" chisel, and the joint isn't bearing huge loads, then just use that. It'll work fine.


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## Cabinetman

Sheffield Tony said:


> I am surprised nobody has yet mentioned that this ought to be a haunched M&T.
> 
> My only other suggestion is that I'd not be drawn by the advice to drill out some of the waste. Unless it is a pretty big mortice and a brace and bit might be appropriate. Just get a proper mortice chisel, a big mallet and set to it. The correct mortice size is the width of the chisel you have, set the gauge to it and saw the tenon to suit. Remember to start near the middle of the mortice, only approaching the ends with light paring cuts to get a nice clean, accurately placed end without rounding over from levering. I find drilling it out strangely harder to produce a clean result, and knocking a square chisel into a series of round holes gives increased chance of spiltting the top of the leg.


Not necessarily Tony, The haunch is usually there to cover up a groove that runs through the joint as in when fitting a panel, actually though in this case as the top of the joint is covered by the tabletop it’s possible to use an open-ended Mortice and Tenon in which case the mortice could be cut in all sorts of different ways. Ian


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## Rorton

another thought, if I was to make a smaller table that would nestle under this one, its going to be nearly half the width of the one im planning to make, so would I reduce everything to suit? Would the legs then need to be 20mm tapering to 10mm, aprons 10mm etc...


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## Cabinetman

Nice thought Rorton, but it doesn’t always just follow that way, its proportions and aesthetic’s, most of the time it’s just what looks right.


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## Sheffield Tony

Cabinetman said:


> Not necessarily Tony, The haunch is usually there to cover up a groove that runs through the joint as in when fitting a panel, actually though in this case as the top of the joint is covered by the tabletop it’s possible to use an open-ended Mortice and Tenon in which case the mortice could be cut in all sorts of different ways. Ian



I'm going to mildly disagree here. The purpose of the haunch is to allow you to put the mortice a bit further from the top of the leg, whilst maintaining glue area and keeping the joint in good alignment. If it were just to fill up the end of a groove (which it can often be usefully used to do) there would be no purpose for the diminished haunch M&T.

Going back to sizing of the mortice, I think the OP is in danger of over-thinking this. If you are cutting a traditional joint by hand, the width is the size of your chisel, the chisel size you pick is somewhere in the range which is strong enough, without making it really hard work. I would suggest anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2" will be fine for something this size in oak. If I had only space for one mortice chisel in my toolbox, I'd pick 5/16" (8mm ish) as the best compromise.


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## Rorton

Cabinetman said:


> Nice thought Rorton, but it doesn’t always just follow that way, its proportions and aesthetic’s, most of the time it’s just what looks right.


Cheers. I think I’ll get the 2 tables that are similar done (one slightly smaller top than the other due to space) and then think about if we need another one later


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## Rorton

OK wife would like the tabletop another 150mm higher, so have raised that, added an extra 10mm to the aprons which are now 70mm, and the top is also 50mm longer

Whole top is now 550mm x 355mm
Whole height of unit to the top of the table is 585mm

For reference, gap between the legs on the short side is 185mm, and 380 on the long side

Legs are still the same 40mm taper to 20 inside edges only

Still look in proportion, not to spindly? Aprons deep enough? The second will have the same height, but his top will be 460mm x 300mm


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## Jameshow

Sheffield Tony said:


> I'm going to mildly disagree here. The purpose of the haunch is to allow you to put the mortice a bit further from the top of the leg, whilst maintaining glue area and keeping the joint in good alignment. If it were just to fill up the end of a groove (which it can often be usefully used to do) there would be no purpose for the diminished haunch M&T.
> 
> Going back to sizing of the mortice, I think the OP is in danger of over-thinking this. If you are cutting a traditional joint by hand, the width is the size of your chisel, the chisel size you pick is somewhere in the range which is strong enough, without making it really hard work. I would suggest anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2" will be fine for something this size in oak. If I had only space for one mortice chisel in my toolbox, I'd pick 5/16" (8mm ish) as the best compromise.



Out of interest which manufacturers make odd sized chisels?? 

Cheers James


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## jcassidy

+1 for "it's all about the chisel you have". The thicker the mortice, the more work you've given yourself.

-1 for rounding the mortice, you will not have a tight joint and will be relying on glue for strength. Cut the mortice however you want, but either square the mortice or round the tenons. You can't have both!


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## Sheffield Tony

Jameshow said:


> Out of interest which manufacturers make odd sized chisels??
> 
> Cheers James



If 5/16 is odd ...
Lie Nielsen
Veritas (at an even more eyewatering price)
Robert Sorby
Narex
- and maybe others.

But stock is hard to find at the moment.


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## Jameshow

Sorry unusual perhaps. 

Cheers James


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## Rorton

By a stroke of luck I managed to acquire some oak boards for the cost of some pine - so I bought them and have got cracking - I'll get a project thread up at some point - im just doing bits and bobs here and there so as not to rush it. 

At the moment, ive cut the material for 8 legs, and enough for 4 more, those will be to practice on, setup for the mortices tapers etc, The boards were 1" but around 6" wide, so I managed to glue some together using two pieces that were next to each other on the board (if that makes sense!?) to try and help reduce the visibility of the glue line. 

I then fired up my thicknesser for the first time in anger, blimey, what a brilliant job that did, I got all the legs dimensioned to size after sitting overnight glueing up, the material for the aprons and the material for the tops. 



Material













Leg material cut to size






Leg material ready to go ('c' tabled legs are the test pieces - bit of a gap in one where I messed up, but its fine for a test piece.


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## Cabinetman

It’s looking good Rorton, I’m sure you know but just in case, on your first photo that lighter strip at the top of the wood looks from here like sapwood, shouldn’t really use that bit on your furniture, it’s where the woodworm live! 
Keep it coming, do love a WIP. Ian


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## Rorton

thanks, never even thought about sapwood, its obvious on Walnut (my first love ) but not so obvious here (not to me anyways!)

That board had some cupping, so I have ripped it down into smaller pieces - replanned/thicknessed and will then glue together for the tabletops, not ideal, and if it looks rubbish I can get some more as this was cheep enough - I was reading about tabletops last night and getting and keeping them flat seems to be a fine art in itself, would have liked to not have as many joins in, but was reading some people got say 2 board each 8" wide glued up, planed flattened and then sanded, and then it still cupped, so is it better to have joins in anyway? Maybe at 3/4" its too thin?


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## Rorton

ah I see what you mean on the picture I think, I think its how it looks as there are other boards behind it maybe?


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## Cabinetman

Ah yes I can see the other board behind now, when you are joining boards together for a top personally I think 8 inches is a little wide for individual planks, I usually go five or six at the most. I hope I’m not telling my granny how to suck eggs, but the planks need to be turned over so that when looking at the end grain it looks like cups and bridges – I’m sure there’s a correct name for it, alternating every other board helps to mitigate the movement of the one before it. 
It can make life easier if you switch the boards end to end alternately as well, doesn’t always work, but generally speaking the direction in which you plane a board to stop it ripping the grain up should be the same on them all.


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## Rorton

Thanks for that, unfortunately I can't get 5-6" planks from this material - im at 2.5" so will need 6 of them. I'll do it, as its a good exercise for me anyway, and if it looks rubbish, I can get wider boards, I can use the practice to get the bevel/chamfer correct at the bottom!

Thanks for the tip on the orientation, certainly no egg sucking here, any info greatly appreciated.

Ive bought a biscuit cutter for the 1/4 palm router, so plan to use these for alignment and help reduce any movement and further planing after glued together. My thicknesser is 13" wide, and the top is another couple of inches wider than this, so was unsure if I glue up in 2 lots of 3, which I can then plane, and finally glue together, or just go for it, and glue all 6 together - they have all been thicknessed anyway, so I was hoping it would be ok


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## Benchwayze

English Oak. My favourite timber. I have just one board at the moment a 12' x 12" x 1.5". It is a centre board and it's beautifully figured. I got it from Venables in Stafford itself so it's knocking on a bit. Time I made a side table for myself.


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## Cabinetman

I tried one of those biscuit cutters in a router and I’m sorry to say I wasn’t terribly impressed, the biscuits seemed quite loose which sort of negates the whole idea of it really, 
I think as it’s your first time I’m going to say I think you should glue as many as you can get through your thicknesser – five maybe? and then glue on the last one (After putting it through the thicknesser on the same setting) 
You will find it a great deal easier to take a thin skim off close to the edge of the board than you will in the centre had you glued it up in two halves


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## Benchwayze

Hi Cabinetman

Could you not get a slimmer slot cutter for your router? I had no probs before I bought a BJ.

John


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## Rorton

Ive bought a trend bit - 






Trend TRETR3514TC TR3514TC TR35 X 1/4 TCT Biscuit Jointer Set 4.0 x 37.2 mm: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools


Shop Trend TRETR3514TC TR3514TC TR35 X 1/4 TCT Biscuit Jointer Set 4.0 x 37.2 mm. Free delivery on eligible orders of £20 or more.



www.amazon.co.uk





Didn't pay that for it, got it for £25 from the great auction site - and some trend biscuits to go with it. You would hope that stuff from the same manufacturer fits. I'll try it out and report back anyway


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## skeetstar

I understood biscuits to be made of compressed wood, which then expanded back to size once in contact with water based pva? There are anecdotes of them expanding and distorting the timber if they are sited too near the surface of the wood. I've used an axi cutter and lamello biscuits and they've been excellent.


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## Rorton

Made a bit more progress, I won't swamp the thread with pictures, I'll save that for a project thread 

I tried with hand tools, and after cutting 2 mortices which took forever, I really wasn't happy with them, must be an OCD thing. Because I have 16 to cut (2 tables now, each leg has 2 mortices), I went with the router and a 1/2 bit. 

A few errors through carelessness, but I had enough blanks cut anyway. 







I then got excited and thought id try a test tenon on a scrap of the apron material. 

Went ok - I used the table saw, and crosscut sled to cut the 2 small sides with the same blade height. Once they were done, I cut the bottom, and then finally the taller section at the top. 

Corners cut with a chisel, and then files/sandpaper to round. The leg I was working on is a perfect fit, tried in another, slightly loose, so im assuming that I will have to fine tune each tenon to each mortice , perhaps put a mark on the end of the tenon and inside the mortice to show which mates with which?

Shoulders look a bit rough as I went at this with a file, won't do that again, or will at least take a bit more care! (that's what test pieces are for right!?!?)

All in, its a decent fit, so has spurred to me on to do some more when I get some more time, will take my time, and cut each one to suit each end. I think im expecting perfection, and all the tenons to fit all the mortices!


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## Cabinetman

That’s all looking very good, I think you might have found it quicker to chisel the ends of the mortises square instead of rounding the tenons, the only other comment I would make is that, and you may already know this, I don’t think your blade is particularly sharp on your tablesaw, Little wispy bits, I bet you’re enjoying this job. Ian
Edit, oh sorry that’s what meant when you said about using a file.


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## Rorton

thanks, I'll have a go with one of the test legs and see how I go with squaring the mortice. Yep, its nice to do a bit and then leave it, I have the tops glued also - now sitting under something heavy to hopefully stop them cupping while in the garage. They were dead flat after glue , so thought leaving them under something would help prevent any movement?


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## Jameshow

Your no novice ......

Loving it! 

Cheers James


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## Benchwayze

Don't tell anyone I told you... 

You probably know, but a sloppy tenon can be fixed by using veneer slips to each side of the tenon. Glue them on first, let dry and then refit the tenon to its mortice.

Cheating? Maybe, but if you haven't much timber to spare, it can save buying new.

Remember... 
Don't tell anyone it was me who made the suggestion!! 

John


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## Rorton

Thanks for that. Great tip!! I’ve cut them all today. Used the table saw and crosscut sled so they are identical, some tighter than others so will fine tune each one - is that normal to do?


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## Fitzroy

Looking great! Fine tuning each joint is often the case.
F.


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## Rorton

what should I do about breaking all the edges of the aprons legs and top of the table, shall I put a really small chamfer/45 bevel on them or round them over with an 1/8 round over bit? 

Im putting a large bevel on the underside of the tabletop, so tempted with that all round to match? even the top of the table?


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