# Removing the wire edge?



## Nads (2 Mar 2006)

After lapping the back of a chisel/plane iron and honing the bevel to the required angle, what’s the best way to remove the wire edge, which is created by sharpening process. I’ve heard people say you can dig the blade in hardwood (is this the end gain of normal grain?) Or is it best just to genteelly lap the back of the blade and then sharpen the bevel side alternately until the wire edge has gone? Some advice from you guys would be great!? :? 

How do you guys compare diamond against water stones? As I currently use waterstones, but have heard loads of good things about the trend double sided diamond stones! :? 

Cheers Everyone!


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## Alf (2 Mar 2006)

Nads":38a5eo9f said:


> ...what’s the best way to remove the wire edge, which is created by sharpening process. I’ve heard people say you can dig the blade in hardwood (is this the end gain of normal grain?) Or is it best just to genteelly lap the back of the blade and then sharpen the bevel side alternately until the wire edge has gone?


The latter. Although if it's not a super critical edge you're after you can run the edge through a bit of end grain softwood. If you think about it, any time you remove the wire edge by breaking it off rather than abrading it away you'll be leaving a jagged edge. This is only desirable when you're slicing tomatoes and such. 



Nads":38a5eo9f said:


> How do you guys compare diamond against water stones? As I currently use waterstones, but have heard loads of good things about the trend double sided diamond stones! :?


One is wet and doesn't stay flat without care, but you reveal fresh cutting surfaces all the time. The other can be wet, or paraffin-y in my case, stays flat but the cutting edge can become less effective over time. Some folks have trouble with them losing their bite too soon (not found that a problem myself, but then diamonds _are_ a girl's best friend...) and the finest diamond stone isn't very. Then there's diamond paste which is as flat as your substrate, has the fresh cutting edge thing any time you want to add some more, isn't wet at all and goes down to ridiculously small micron sizes.

Confused? Ah, ain't sharpening wunnerful? :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## Nads (2 Mar 2006)

Cheers Alf,

what you said about removing the wire edge makes sense to me, and that’s roughly what technique I currently use! It’s just sometimes it takes me a while to total remove the wire edge – and was just wondering what other techniques people use? Sometimes it’s good to reassured that your doing something the correct way by someone in the know! :wink: 

What do you use for sharpening, oil stones isn’t, or do you use a combination of things? I was just wondering what people’s verdict was on them, as they seem expensive but get great reviews from loads of people. When might people use diamond stones over traditional methods? :? 

One of these days I might be able to give some good advise to someone else……….or maybe not? :wink: 

Thanks agian


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## Steve Maskery (2 Mar 2006)

Nads,
I'm on my own sharpening journey, too.

I've tried everything, and until recently kept coming back to my Arkansas oilstones, but they are old, as they were my Dad's before me, and are no longer very flat. Not unusable, but certainly not good.

I'm currently using wetstones, and getting to like them more and more, aspecially with the Veritas MkII Honing Jig (I'm beginning to sound like and advert for them, today).

My experience with diamonds was poor. As Alf says, not very fine, and I also found that some of the diamonds came off quite quickly, so it was easy to ram your nice edge into a slightly proud diamond and ruin it. Mine was a 3M and I bought it probably 15 years ago, so they may be better now.

Scary Sharp is good, you just have to remember to pull every time, or you tear up the SiC paper.

All in all, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what you use, just stick to one way and get good at it!

Cheers
Steve


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## JFC (2 Mar 2006)

Im back on the Indian oil stone at the moment , sharpen the blade , wipe the oil off on my jeans and lap it on my palm , what ever the stone im using i always use my palm to finish off . Some diamond stones come with a leather pouch that i assume is for lapping .


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## Alf (2 Mar 2006)

Yikes, didn't know you wanted someone in the know... 8-[ ]



Nads":1h42eh7h said:


> What do you use for sharpening, oil stones isn’t, or do you use a combination of things?


The drastic increase in the amount of A2 steel and new blades in my workshop has meant I use all sorts these days. The DMT coarse/fine gets a good deal of work on everything, with an oilstone on O1 and 0.5 micron diamond paste for A2. For back flattening and such, 45 micron diamond paste is my current answer to the world's ills. I'm a sharpening butterfly, me.  Can't wait to buy a load of O1 blades for the BUPs; just need TLN to do O1 for his planes and chisels and I'll happily get back to my oilstone again. :wink:

Steve, those Arkansas stones? *Flatten 'em!* Or else send 'em to me; I've a lowly Washita here.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Steve Maskery (2 Mar 2006)

Alf":1cwlbu10 said:


> Steve, those Arkansas stones? *Flatten 'em!*



What do you recommend, Alf? I've tried. But it takes for ever, and even I have a bit of a life.

Steve, who has almost finished his comp entry today!


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## Alf (2 Mar 2006)

Steve Maskery":3qr83726 said:


> I have a bit of a life.


Ah, that's a drawback...

What have you tried so far?

Cheers, Alf


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## Colin C (2 Mar 2006)

Here we go :wink: 
Unlike most if not all here I use a single bevel on all my tools and I have an Eze-lap diamond stone (medium ), then on a fine ceramic stone and then finished off with metal polish cream on a block of mdf with some leather glued to it. 
I find this way I get a very good edge quickly  
Ps I also use a record honing guide for all of it 8-[ ( I think time to get some coffee )


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## engineer one (3 Mar 2006)

to heighten the controversy, i use a tormek to start out my sharpening, after flattening the back on a diamond stone, and then an 8000 wet stone.

after setting the primary bevel on the tormek, i hone the back edge on the leather wheel. then onto a wet stone for the secondary bevel. and finally back to the leather hone. 

before the tormek, i use the leather strop from DMT/Starkey, and their honing paste. others have used the rockers old product autosol chrome polish.

knocking it of on a piece of wood does not really remove the wire edge properly.

paul :wink:


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## kygaloot (3 Mar 2006)

Nads,

I use only two oilstones. The first is a medium India stone. The second is a translucent Arkansas stone. 

As far as the wire edge goes, I do what you described. As soon as I can feel a wire edge, I flip it over and lap the back and then go back to the bevel for a very light one or two strokes. 

No stropping, no wood, no bloody palms.


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## Paul Chapman (3 Mar 2006)

And when you have achieved that perfect edge :roll: use Solvol Autosol to get a mirror finish on the curved part of the cap iron so that those silky smooth shavings just glide out of the plane.

That's if there's any time left for woodworking after all this fettling, flattening, honing, polishing.......... :shock: 

Paul


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## GEPPETTO (3 Mar 2006)

Steve Maskery":2gys5vdu said:


> Alf":2gys5vdu said:
> 
> 
> > Steve, those Arkansas stones? *Flatten 'em!*
> ...



:roll: excuse me.. I'm a newbie about the matter...  but could we use siclicon carbide on a plate of glass? I do it with my inexpensive oilstones and in a while the stone is flattened. :roll: 
I'm waiting your slap :lol: 8-[

gabriele


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## Paul Chapman (3 Mar 2006)

How about this as an approach towards achieving that perfect edge.

I would compare these debates to those I found in my days of black & white photography, where there were endless discussions about how to produce the perfect print.

You would find that two photographers would use the same camera, the same film, the same exposure, the same developer, the same paper and the results were - different :shock: :? 

The reasons invariably came down to:

1. All the variables (you try to find two "officially certified" thermometers that give the same reading :? )

2. Sloppy technique

3. The person producing the inferior print didn't actually know what a good print looked like - so how could he know what he was striving for :? 

Using this analogy, the approach I am going to adopt in my quest for the perfect edge is:

1. Find out what a perfect edge looks like so you know what you are trying to achieve. I've already done this by visiting the Clifton stand at Ally Pally and looking at theirs. Blimey, their blades were better than my shaving mirror :shock: 

2. Speak to them and ask how they got those results (they were very helpful and not wedded to any one method - for example, if you don't like using water they will tell you how to achieve the same result using oil). They are also happy to demonstrate their technique.

3. Read all the views expressed on forums such as this.

4. Decide on a method and technique that you feel you will be happy with.

5. Standardise your working methods so as to remove all the variables.

6. Stick with it until you achieve the result you were after in 1 above.

Sounds simple enough - I hope it works :? :? 

Paul


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## Alf (3 Mar 2006)

GEPPETTO":wwu31sb9 said:


> :roll: excuse me.. I'm a newbie about the matter...  but could we use siclicon carbide on a plate of glass? I do it with my inexpensive oilstones and in a while the stone is flattened. :roll:
> I'm waiting your slap :lol: 8-[


Gabriele, no slap  ; it was what I was going to say. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Nads (3 Mar 2006)

Thanks guys, loads of great advise as always!  

I think I might just stick to my waterstones, for a while………..Although now I purchased new planes with A2 blades, will the sharpening process take that much longer? And will my waterstones be up to it, without taking eternity to sharpen them? I’ve currently got the Ice bear kit from Axminster, which consists of 800 and 6000, grit stones! Or would a diamond stone help to reduce sharpening time on the A2 blades? :? 

Cheers

Nads


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## GEPPETTO (3 Mar 2006)

Alf":2d8862zh said:


> GEPPETTO":2d8862zh said:
> 
> 
> > :roll: excuse me.. I'm a newbie about the matter...  but could we use siclicon carbide on a plate of glass? I do it with my inexpensive oilstones and in a while the stone is flattened. :roll:
> ...



 Only to reinforce silicon carbide property I'll say I tried that powder for flattening plane sole.. WOW it's so quick to do it compare to SC paper.

Cheers, Gabriele


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## bugbear (3 Mar 2006)

Colin C":2x3bcgds said:


> Ps I also use a record honing guide for all of it



You mean the one with the captive ball bearing? I have never found a used one where the ball wasn't jammed and/or faceted to hell.

You mean you're actually making the thing WORK?!

BugBear

(who does have a Record guide of this type in good condition, but then it's never been used, meep, meep)


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## ydb1md (8 Mar 2006)

Steve Maskery":2x4bpo79 said:


> All in all, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what you use, just stick to one way and get good at it!
> 
> Cheers
> Steve



*Bingo !*

ccasion5:


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## Philly (8 Mar 2006)

Nads
Your waterstones are perfect for sharpening A2 steel-it shouldn't take long to sharpen them to a razor edge.
Philly


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## bugbear (8 Mar 2006)

Gabriele":27rqhsau said:


> Only to reinforce silicon carbide property I'll say I tried that powder for flattening plane sole.. WOW it's so quick to do it compare to SC paper.



Tell me more, please. I've not heard of this being done very often.

Detail, details we want details (Per piacere)!

BugBear


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## Anonymous (8 Mar 2006)

Nads":npawiije said:


> Thanks guys, loads of great advise as always!
> 
> I think I might just stick to my waterstones, for a while………..Although now I purchased new planes with A2 blades, will the sharpening process take that much longer? And will my waterstones be up to it, without taking eternity to sharpen them? I’ve currently got the Ice bear kit from Axminster, which consists of 800 and 6000, grit stones! Or would a diamond stone help to reduce sharpening time on the A2 blades? :?
> 
> ...



I have A2 blade in a dozen planes and each takes about 3 minutes to sharpen on a 1000 grit followed by 6000 grit waterstone


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## Nads (8 Mar 2006)

Cool,

Thanks gugs, looks like my waterstones will still be more than up to sharpening my new A2 blades. Once again great advise all around! :lol: 

Nads


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## GEPPETTO (9 Mar 2006)

bugbear":uunvmpjz said:


> Gabriele":uunvmpjz said:
> 
> 
> > Only to reinforce silicon carbide property I'll say I tried that powder for flattening plane sole.. WOW it's so quick to do it compare to SC paper.
> ...



Hi bugbear, I simply put a bit of powder on a thick plate of glass with kerosene or water as lubricant. I saw that on the "Handplane book" of Garret. I found it is more efficient than SC paper because it doesn't clog and the entire process is more quick.

Cheers, Gabriele


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## j (9 Mar 2006)

Does this also grind down your glass plate?


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## Alf (9 Mar 2006)

Bottom article here. I think the idea of the mylar is to help hold the grit to prevent it sloshing about abrading the substrate as well - or am I way off?

Cheers, Alf


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## GEPPETTO (9 Mar 2006)

j":c1rj3vj1 said:


> Does this also grind down your glass plate?



I think. Tha glass become opacified. However I think if you take advantage of all the surface it doesn't become too much concave. :?: . Naturally I should change the glass after few planes, I think. I did read somewhere one could use a flat surface of mild iron on which to put the carbide powder. The powder clogs into the mild iron and all acts as abrasive paper. It could be used a plastic film on a flat surface with the same result.
However I followed the Garret Hack method because I'm newbie and I was tired to glue a lot of sandpaper because it wears very quick.

Do you only flatten sole plane onto SC paper?

Cheers. Gabriele


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## bugbear (9 Mar 2006)

GEPPETTO":2hsh20x7 said:


> Do you only flatten sole plane onto SC paper?
> 
> Cheers. Gabriele



And with no further opportunity required, the obsessive leapt!

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/flatten.html

BugBear


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## Sam Salter (9 Mar 2006)

Going back to the wire edge:- 

I'm still new at this sharpening cult (woe is me saith the apprentice!) but what I've picked up I got from Rob Cosman at a course I attended last summer. 

He was using (and so am I now!) Norton water stones. 

To get the wire edge off, after honing the secondary bevel by hand - I am not worthy! - he used an 8000 grit stone with a small 6" rule laid flat along one edge. He laid the back of the blade on top of the rule so the cutting edge was close to the other side of the stone. A few passes "rubbed off" a complete wire edge, the width of the plane blade. The blade ended up with a 3rd edge at a very slight angle on the back of the blade. (Thickness of the steel rule). 
He did this 2 or 3 times and got an intact "wire" every time. 

I'm not sure if this is good, but I was certainly impressed. Needless to say, I've not managed to get it, ...but I've got a few bits now and again. 

sam


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## Paul Chapman (9 Mar 2006)

Sam,

He pinched that idea from David Charlesworth, who calls it his "ruler trick".

Paul


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## Sam Salter (9 Mar 2006)

Yes - and to be fair, I'm sure he mentioned that at the time.
sam


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## GEPPETTO (10 Mar 2006)

Sam Salter":24s6dfft said:


> ......he used an 8000 grit stone with a small 6" rule laid flat along one edge. He laid the back of the blade on top of the rule so the cutting edge was close to the other side of the stone........



Sam, if I dont' have misunderstood the blade is faced with the stone at a very little angle, considerind the thick of the rule.



Sam Salter":24s6dfft said:


> ..The blade ended up with a 3rd edge at a very slight angle on the back of the blade. (Thickness of the steel rule).



Did he make a back bevel?

Certainly a picture could explain much better than one thousand of words :roll: .


Cheers, Gabriele


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## j (10 Mar 2006)

I think I saw this trick in both of their videos.

The ruler is used to raise up the blade to give a very slight bevel on the back of the plane blade. So the blade is raised by about 1-2mm depending on how thick your ruler is. If you get a chance to see either of these videos, I'm sure you'll learn a lot.

As David says: "Only plane blades, never chisels please"


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## Paul Chapman (10 Mar 2006)

David Charlesworth also describes the "ruler trick" in his book 'David Charlesworth's Furniture-Making Techniques, volume two'.

Paul


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## Jasper Homminga (10 Mar 2006)

GEPPETTO":11cqehvg said:


> Did he make a back bevel?


Yes. 
BUT let's say your ruler is 1mm thick, the blade projects about 10cm beyond that, so the back bevel would be 0.57 degrees. I doubt one would notice the difference in planing properties, but I know one would notice the reduction in sharpening time!

Jasper
ps. a 2mm ruler would result in a 1.1 degree back bevel.


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## Sam Salter (10 Mar 2006)

Yes it's a back bevel - just like J's explanation.
We're talking 10 seconds on the stone. Just enough to take off the wire edge.

I'm not sure if this has cropped up in this thread, but when you get to these very small sizes, flatness of stones is important.

Cosman flattened his stones against each other very often - 4 or 5 times during the sharpening process. But as the "out of flatness" was very small, it took very little off the stones and took just a few seconds.

I've got 3 stones (1000 / 4000 / 8000 grit). I alternate the stones when flattening so they all get to flatten each other & no 2 stones get to "mate".

sam


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