# Wadkin Time Warp Workshop - Kent



## jimi43 (8 Feb 2012)

I recently received an invitation from a gentleman called Ben in East Kent to visit the old house that he is currently restoring that has at times various been a malting house, and oast house and latterly, a woodworking shop.

His description was that it appeared to be entirely fitted out with old Wadkin equipment, driven by a steam engine!!!

Now this was far too enticing to turn down, so today Douglas (condeesteso) and I ventured out in the snow to pay a visit.

We were not disappointed! Hidden amongst the "stuff" also in the workshop before it is cleared out were a whole range of Wadkin BELT DRIVEN machines....saws, thicknessers, morticers, planers and spindle-moulders.







So....for the purposes of historical recording and to spark some debate and initiate research...I have decided to document the contents for Ben and post it here....

I shall try to move around the workshop in some order....showing shots of the various machines along with identification plates where present.

Clockwise from the foreground then...firstly we have a planer/thicknesser....






Difficult to photograph the ID plate on this one but you can see all you need Machine number MJ244 Test Number 3719:






Amazing 16" bed we think...huge cast iron frame....and the iconic name...






Moving around we have the table saw....






I didn't have a tape measure with me...but the blades are about 2 feet I think....






After all these years...these machines have only a slight surface rust...






...wonderful blade guard...






...and some huge controls...






Here is the ID plate...Machine Number PD351 Test Number 4737:






Next we have a rather large morticer, here being modelled by our very own Douglas....






...another large lump of cast iron with many wheels to turn...and they did!






Again we have the ID plate....Machine Number MD343 Test Number 4734






Now we come to the all-important machine...the sharpening station...






This machine provides a grind wheel for narrow edge tools and a wonderful planer blade (?) jig on the other side...






The ID plate for this machine shows...Machine Number NB216 Test Number 2315






And now friends...my favourite machine of all...the massive bandsaw.....






This thing has huge bands...stored upstairs on this contraption...






We ain't mucking about here with tiny controls...but it could probably do with a TUFFSAW blade! :mrgreen: 






The ID is...Machine Number DH122 Test Number 1450.






Last of the belt driven machines....a spindle moulder....






There appears to be two sides to this model (see how much I know!  )....






The cutters look rather "dangerous" to the uninitiated....






The Machine Number EV815 Test Number 4782






In the workshop and in an adjacent room were two other machines not powered by the belt system....both three phase and obvious later additions to the catalogue of Wadkins populating the shop....

This is EDIT now believed to be a tenoner....






Sadly there was no plate visible on this machine...but I have put it in for completeness but outside was a HUGE radial arm saw...






...again modelled by a now frozen Douglas....and still being used for restoration work and "chopping up firewood"!






Mmmm....rather you than me Ben!! :shock: 

Douglas reported no play whatever in the controls which still move very smoothly and precisely.






I think this one weighs a few hundredweight!






And the last ID plate Machine Number CC847 and Test Number 6556






The motor is also and old one....






So...there you go. A time warp of Wadkins indeed!

Upstairs is a beautifully light workshop....






Douglas took photos of the benches (of course!)....I think he may be building one soon! :mrgreen: 






Ben is not sure what to do with all of these pieces of British machine history...and it probably is a bit much to expect the missus to allow them to remain in the living room so would appreciate some suggestions on this score along with any information that could shed some light on the date of these machines and any other information that might help his research.

I hope you guys and gals enjoyed this virtual tour as much as we did...and thanks again to Ben for the visit and warming cups of tea!

If anyone would like further information or to contact Ben then please PM me. I also have more photos and all in HI RES.

Cheers

Jim and Douglas.


----------



## 9fingers (8 Feb 2012)

Excellent find Jim.
Absolutely criminal to have all that rust though!!

Bob


----------



## jimi43 (8 Feb 2012)

9fingers":2f5yto73 said:


> Excellent find Jim.
> Absolutely criminal to have all that rust though!!
> 
> Bob



Well, you've got to do something before the bootfairs open! :mrgreen: 

Actually the rust is only a powder....all machines move fine. If you got a rag you could wipe most of the rust off in one go.

I am glad you came on here first mate...do you think these could be powered by electrickery?

Jim


----------



## MickCheese (8 Feb 2012)

Very interesting.

Museum pieces I think, cannot imagine anyone having the room or the drive system for all of those.

Mick


----------



## 9fingers (8 Feb 2012)

jimi43":r6tu5oce said:


> I am glad you came on here first mate...do you think these could be powered by electrickery?
> 
> Jim



Don't see why not. Depends a bit if only one machine would be run at a time.

I'd consider putting in 5-10hp motor with a fast and loose pulley running on the lineshaft.

My guess would be that the original steam engine would have been run at or near fixed speed so just choose the motor/pulley drive to get a similar lineshaft speed.

For a multi user workshop drive system, the motor would need to be of similar capability as the steam engine.

hth

Bob


----------



## jimi43 (8 Feb 2012)

9fingers":1tg62vzv said:


> jimi43":1tg62vzv said:
> 
> 
> > I am glad you came on here first mate...do you think these could be powered by electrickery?
> ...



I was thinking about whether each machine would be able to be electrified?

Jim


----------



## Blister (8 Feb 2012)

Wow Jim 

Looks like the HOLY Grail of workshops 

Should have a preservation order on it , Its HISTORY 

I would love to have a go on them 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Wadkin have a historical department http://www.wadkin.com/wadkin-library

They may be able to date the machines


----------



## 9fingers (8 Feb 2012)

jimi43":1t0puou4 said:


> 9fingers":1t0puou4 said:
> 
> 
> > jimi43":1t0puou4 said:
> ...



Can't see why not in principle. Assuming that the flat belt pulleys can be removed that is. Flat belts don't work properly on short belt runs.
Adding motor mounts would be easy for anyone mechanically minded. Beware of some machines like a table saw that might have a tilting arbour that relies on the flexibility of a long belt. It might be difficult to mount a motor on the trunnion of such machines.

hth
Bob


----------



## Oryxdesign (8 Feb 2012)

Is there a stream nearby? 

Amazing place btw thanks for showing us


----------



## liam8223 (8 Feb 2012)

I think the 'new spindle moulder'
is actully a tenoner......


Liam.


----------



## jimi43 (8 Feb 2012)

Isn't it just Blister. I'm sure if you wanted to go and see it before it is gone for good, Ben would be accommodating.

Thanks Bob...we thought the same...but you are THE man! :wink: 

There probably is Simon...wouldn't that be grand!



liam8223":32rxwun1 said:


> I think the 'new spindle moulder'
> is actully a tenoner......
> 
> 
> Liam.



You're probably correct Liam...I don't know much about big joinery power tools.

We have come to the conclusion because of artefacts found upstairs and because of the size and shape of some of the mouldings and cutters....the shop was mostly used for making doors and windows for the village so a tenoner would make sense.

Jim


----------



## No skills (8 Feb 2012)

Wadkin version of the playboy mansion.



Jacob will like the work benches.

Hope the machines can be re-homed and put to use.


----------



## wallace (8 Feb 2012)

WOW, I want them. That is an amazing find. Was the line shafting ran by a steam engine or stationary engine. I bet Jack will like this find.


----------



## goldeneyedmonkey (8 Feb 2012)

Whoa that's a nice bit of Wadkin there... What I'd give for that P/T and T/S! Nice find Jim. 

Cheers _Dan.


----------



## jimi43 (8 Feb 2012)

wallace":1o0470r7 said:


> WOW, I want them. That is an amazing find. Was the line shafting ran by a steam engine or stationary engine. I bet Jack will like this find.



Yup...I actually commented to Douglas that these workbenches were just up Jacob's street! The place was littered with old moulding and plough planes too!

I think Jack is probably on a boat to Ramsgate now! :mrgreen: 

The engine is a NATIONAL and stationary...steam generated by gas/oil as far as I can tell but I am by no means a steam engine expert and somehow I was so awestruck by the thing I completely forgot to take a photograph of it. I think Douglas might have taken one. Ben wants to keep the engine anyway but the feed is run underground/overground with a series of pulleys in pits with guards and covers...all of which were off.

Jim


----------



## woodbloke (8 Feb 2012)

Nice find Jim but it looks like an elfn'safety nightmare on steroids to me - Rob


----------



## Steve Blackdog (8 Feb 2012)

How fantastic!

I'd get in touch with the Amish in the States, I seem to recall a post elsewhere here showing an Amish workshop powered by a horse with a treadmill! Just think what they could do with this lot


----------



## Steve Maskery (8 Feb 2012)

Remind me again what the max distance from riving knife to blade is....!
Hey, at least it has a riving knife.

Fantastic in every other respect. great find.
S


----------



## toolsntat (8 Feb 2012)

jimi43":imtlibfd said:


> This thing has huge bands...stored upstairs on this contraption...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey up Jim , this looks more like a sharpening jig :wink: 

Andy


----------



## jimi43 (9 Feb 2012)

I think a number of us here would love the opportunity to restore just one of these beauties...I definitely would go for the bandsaw...but alas...even if I could move it...there is no way it would fit in my workshop and I doubt very much if I could afford the blades :mrgreen: 

No elves in sight Rob....none. There may have been some at the end of the huge garden but I couldn't see that far!

I was more worried about getting excited with the photos and forget for an instance that there were huge pits in the floor housing the pulleys!






Some may notice even more old Wadkin accessories...these were liberally scattered around on the floor!

There were also boxes of cutters and other bits and bobs!

Some may notice I have changed one of the last two photos for one of the bench which was the intention anyway....the original being another shot of the last and an error.

One other correction having read the article on the subject HERE it would appear that the engine is a National GAS engine made in 1933 not a steam engine. Excellent bit of kit even so!

Jim


----------



## tool613 (9 Feb 2012)

O!M!G!

I live in the wrong country. That has got to be the best find i have ever seen. The Wadkin and CO was changed to LTD in 1936 so there that old. Its fun to see that they had not changed much in some of the designs. Wadkin was one of the first in the UK to motor up theses old machines and I belieave they did that in 1928. so I think there some were between 1938 and 1928. You see the propelled logo tells me that. 








I'm working on an Wadkin RM PT and some of the casting have MJ in the casting marks. The R family are these machines with electric motors. you could still order line drive as an option in the 50s tho. so it would not be that hard to put motors to them. Is the rip saw a double arbor. You really did not get tilting arbor until the electric motors designs came in. that where the tilting fence came in. fun to see what was carried forward. 

jack


----------



## jimi43 (9 Feb 2012)

Thought you would enjoy this thread Jack! :mrgreen: 

Douglas and I spoke of you today...wouldn't it be wonderful if the whole lot was set up as a workshop of how it used to be.

WIth things this size...it's difficult to find the right home and criminal not to. A very difficult decision for the present owner...hopefully making the find more public might result an answer.

Jim


----------



## tool613 (9 Feb 2012)

jim
That all must have been set up at the same time back in the day. those machines look in really great shape and the same age.

Really Wadkin should be contacted and see if there is funding to save them. I would be in heaven saving that shop.


I have posted this on the other side of the pond in your credit.

what are your hopes. 

jack


----------



## jimi43 (9 Feb 2012)

tool613":2eczoqfo said:


> jim
> That all must have been set up at the same time back in the day. those machines look in really great shape and the same age.
> 
> Really Wadkin should be contacted and see if there is funding to save them. I would be in heaven saving that shop.
> ...



Hi Jack

You have a PM saying exactly that!

Do you have the link where you posted it over there please?

In the article recently posted as PDF (800k) HERE you can read that in 1988 the workshop was still running...up to 1994 and it would appear the equipment was there in 1933 when the engine was fitted to replace one which was considered a fire hazard.

I'm wondering if this was a time when the radial arm saw was installed as this is later but two plates on it say LTD and CO at the same time...a transitional one?






Perhaps a more exact date may come from the Brooks motor...






_(both pics reposted to save looking back a page)_


Thanks

Jim


----------



## Tony Spear (9 Feb 2012)

Jim, 

going by Jack's estimation of the age of these machines ther's a fair chance that the engine was actually an oil engine (basically a diesel). To run a gas engine there'd have to be a source of gas!
National was actually the National Gas and Oil Engine Company, founded by the Bickerton brothers around 1890 in (I think!) Ashton - under - Lyne.
They were the main supplier of (Oil) engines to Narrow Boat builders in the years running up to the War and slightly beyond.
In fact, I'm reasonably sure that somebody is still making the National Narrow Boat engines. 
Best source of further information is probably the Anson Museum at Poynton in Cheshire.


----------



## tool613 (9 Feb 2012)

jimi43":y2hgsle4 said:


> tool613":y2hgsle4 said:
> 
> 
> > jim
> ...




PM sent

link
http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=110362


jack


----------



## kirkpoore1 (9 Feb 2012)

9fingers":25az78qn said:


> jimi43":25az78qn said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking about whether each machine would be able to be electrified?
> ...



Excellent find. Even over here, a find this big only shows up every few years, and it's never all one manufacturer.

Yes, they can all be individually motor driven. I have three former lineshaft machines that have motors now. Two are driven by v-belts and one by a flat belt. I don't think any one machine would take more than a 5 hp motor. 

Can you take some pictures of the lineshaft(s) and the countershafts? Sometimes those are really interesting. In particular the spindle molder could be a real find. Those were often reversible, driven by a cone friction drive, and are extremely rare. 

I concur that the double-wheel frame on the wall is likely a sharpening jig. There is probably a tooth setting jig among the debris, and the individual teeth might have been hand filed or ground.

The thread on OWWM is here:http://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=110362
(Edit: Oops, Jack beat me to it.)

Kirk


----------



## jimi43 (9 Feb 2012)

Tony Spear":3oo9q6kf said:


> Jim,
> 
> going by Jack's estimation of the age of these machines ther's a fair chance that the engine was actually an oil engine (basically a diesel). To run a gas engine there'd have to be a source of gas!
> National was actually the National Gas and Oil Engine Company, founded by the Bickerton brothers around 1890 in (I think!) Ashton - under - Lyne.
> ...



There is more information on the engine in the PDF and you are correct...it is National Gas and Oil....

I am not an expert on these either but it is a beautiful machine...I am kicking myself for not getting a picture. Perhaps we can get one from Douglas or Ben.

Cheers

Jimi


----------



## Tony Spear (9 Feb 2012)

Thinking about it even more, a great many engines of that time could run on gas or "light enine oil" (ask a vintage tractor fan about that, I think it's basically the same as what they call TVO). At the Cricket Club that I played for for years we had an old "Grey Fergie" tractor which was started on neat petrol, then once it was up to temperature, you switched it over to the TVO tank. As TVO was not easy to obtain and cost an arm and a leg, we made our own (4 Litres from somebody's central heating oil tank and 1 Litre of petrol!) :mrgreen: 

Some of the blower drives on the Grain Dryers in our village are still Gas/Oil dual fuel.


----------



## jimi43 (9 Feb 2012)

Hi Kirk

Thanks for your comments my friend.

I missed Andy's comment there about the sharpening jig...with all the threads on sharpening here I thought he was kidding but I see now! Nice one Andy! Adds to the picture as this was upstairs in the very light workshop and would be quieter and more relaxing to do this job. Fascinating!

Regarding the pulleys...unfortunately I didn't get shots down in the pits...I think Ben has the facility to take more pictures...I will ask him or he might see this and take some in which case we will post them later.

I will also advise him to contact Wadkin history department to see if they are interested in funding the rescue. I was fascinated as I have seen these workshop setups only in books and to see one "live" was a truly great experience indeed!

There is also a place nearby which has all sorts of machinery....about 5 miles away...maybe they would set it up in a building as a working exhibit? It's part of our national history and should be preserved as such.

Jim


----------



## Tony Spear (9 Feb 2012)

Finding info on the electric motors might be a little more problematic, due to the massive changes in the British Electrical industry, particularly in the 60's and 70's. BTH were established in the late 19c and were a major electrical manufacturer, based in Rugby. At some time in the late 20's AEI was created and absorbed BTH and Metropolitan-Vickers and others. After much to-ing and fro-ing (including the aquisition of Siemens Brothers in 1953) By 1960 AEI had dropped the BTH name and others, which led to a major collapse as nobody in BTH and Siemens customary markets had ever heard of AEI. In '67, GEC bought AEI outright, becoming the largest Electrical company in Britain. This was all still going on in Rugby.

By the 80's all this had started to contract.

In 1989 GEC split into Alsthom and Cegelec Projects, but in 1998 they re-merged into Alsthom (still on part of the old Rugby site when I last had any dealings with them).)


----------



## condeesteso (9 Feb 2012)

(Thawed out now!). Brilliant to see the interest this lot is getting. I have never seen quite so much Wadkin gear all in one place (Morgan Timber in Strood comes vaguely close).
I need to check through pics but have a bad feeling I didn't snap the engine either - will check asap.
Ah yes, the bsaw sharpening jig - twas very cold and the brain was malfunctioning, but absolutely. I noted the blade width max would have only been 1", I'm certain no more judging by the protruding guides on the wheels. Also the blade fitted looked 3/4" which struck me as quite narrow.
I imagine the real hope for these machines now rests on the question, can they be sparked up? If they come from a period when an equivalent was available with motor (electric) then maybe yes, but a Wadkin expert might know, or Wadkin themselves. Otherwise I rather fear for their prospects.
I imagine Ben would let the engine go too, but the cost of recreating this whole set-up, the space required etc... would surely be considerable and I'm no expert on Health & Safety, but can't imagine this set-up becoming commercially viable again?
Ben did mention he passed on an offer of £5k for the engine some time in the mid nineties and now regrets not taking it.
But seeing that lot confirmed my great affection for older Wadkin gear - totally impractical for me, but great to get up close to.
Will post pics of the 3 benches when I can find lead to wife's Ixus! But be prepared for the fact the front legs were flush :wink:


----------



## houtslager (9 Feb 2012)

Abso bloody marvelous find there my man 
pipper getting those machines out, I'd want to MOVE IN
and get them going again, though I wonder if there would any work in the area for a joiner / cabinetmaker ?

Would Ben rent the place out ?

drooling over the workshop first, then the machinery here in a frozen Friesland

Karl


----------



## condeesteso (9 Feb 2012)

here are the benches ( pics a lot bigger if you click on them):









I'd guess they were about 12 feet long, rock solid and well used indeed. I only had a quick look at vices but couldn't see a brand name. Jim probably mentioned this but seems they made architectural - doors, windows, mouldings etc... so everything was on a larger scale, including a huge external door on 1st floor (where the benches are) to get the work out. There is a centrally placed trapdoor in floor / ceiling to get prepped stock up from machine shop into finishing area above. Just thought - no sign at all anywhere I noticed of chip / dust collection. But the odd stove lying around so maybe it all got burned.


----------



## jimi43 (9 Feb 2012)

Oh dear....perhaps we were so awed by the engine we were struck photo-less! I'll see if Ben can take some!

Re dust extraction....I think this period had an Apprentice Junior in the corner with master craftsman activated circulating brush system complete with shovel filter into cast iron combustion chambers. A chip collector was only activated on Fridays. 

I have a similar setup at home but it's the Advanced Married version. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


----------



## tool613 (9 Feb 2012)

Boys

My buddy Matty down under is getting together to post every one of those machines from his catalog collection.
Keep am eye on the post this week end.

thank you so much for posting this it is over the top for me.

jack


----------



## kirkpoore1 (9 Feb 2012)

jimi43":grz365fe said:


> Oh dear....perhaps we were so awed by the engine we were struck photo-less! I'll see if Ben can take some!
> 
> Re dust extraction....I think this period had an Apprentice Junior in the corner with master craftsman activated circulating brush system complete with shovel filter into cast iron combustion chambers. A chip collector was only activated on Fridays.
> 
> ...


I used to have that system, in the two stage variant:




Worked great, except it got a little cold during the winter.

Kirk


----------



## bugbear (9 Feb 2012)

jimi43":2c5wwsw9 said:


> And now friends...my favourite machine of all...the massive bandsaw.....



The guards look as if they were added later - it was originally a REAL man's tool, with no elf and safety nonsense to get in the way!

BugBear


----------



## Chrispy (9 Feb 2012)

Does any one know when this workshop was last used? although there's a lot of history, there also seems to be clues as to quite reacent activety which when stopped I would guess all the "newer" stuff was removed. Maybe 20>30 years ago?


----------



## jimi43 (9 Feb 2012)

Hi Chris

1994 by all accounts Chris.

I love the sawdust on the name plates!!

Jim


----------



## houtslager (9 Feb 2012)

I aam definately interested in returning to the UK if that is to rent as is 
:tongue9: :tongue9: :tongue9: 8) 

karl


----------



## Cheshirechappie (9 Feb 2012)

Seriously interesting.

Somebody invested quite a lot of money in that business originally. Wadkins have never been 'budget' manufacturers.

If this has to be cleared out (and can't be preserved in-situ as some sort of historical, educational piece of heritage) there are one or two museums around the country that might be interested. The Ironbridge Gorge Museum may be interested for it's Blist's Hill site, or the Chatham Historic Dockyard. Another that springs to mind is Beamish.

Be a crying shame to see that lot go for scrap.


----------



## jimi43 (9 Feb 2012)

Cheshirechappie":g17nrrjn said:


> Seriously interesting.
> 
> Somebody invested quite a lot of money in that business originally. Wadkins have never been 'budget' manufacturers.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the post CC.

I can honestly say that I can't see the owner scrapping the machinery having met him. There are plans afoot as we speak which if they come off will see the ideal solution for this gem.

Jim


----------



## Tony Spear (9 Feb 2012)

Preserving Industrial Heritage is a very difficult area to get involved in. They give millions to Ballet Companies without the blink of an eye, but engineering stuff is (and has) been the poorer relation!

Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that the preservation people have been stuck in a pre and post Brunel situation. Where Victorian engineering is more important than what came earlier or later. To save a collection such as this would certainly needs loads of Lottery dosh plus the efforts of very, very many Donors.

Back around 1980, I was asked by Thames Water to discuss a project whereby they were going to replace their last steam pumps by electrically driven units.. When we visited the site, I was absolutely gob-smacked to see what they were proposing to replace! I happened to mention that I thought that this was one of of the most important steam pumping installations still around. I have to admit that my commitment to my employer took second place to the future of these magnificent engines and I told Thames that to destroy these engines would be sacriledge. Fortunately, Thames eventually seemed to take notice and subsequentally a trust was fomed to restore these engines and to keep them in "Steamable" condition and that's the current situation, with one steamable engine!

http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab ... 76&bih=518

I apologise for digressing, but I thought that I should point out just how difficult it is to preserve our Industrial Heritage (although that's what made us what we are)

As I mentioned before, the Anson Engine Museum might be your best starting place>

PS. Health permitting, I might try to arrange to come and look at your set-up.

PPS. the reason for the line-shafts and pulleys being below ground is down to the fact that you can't drive them from above because of the machine tables etc. that would get in the way of belt drive!


----------



## ben w (9 Feb 2012)

Hello gents, I'm Ben. 

Its nice to see such interest in this workshop. If anyone wishes to visit they're more than welcome. We're 5 miles East of Ramsgate, 15 miles North of Dover (if anyone wants to stop off on their way across the channel).

In the next few days I'll try to post some of the missing pictures, though I'm not as efficient as Jim so 'a few days' might mean 9 or 10 rather than 2 or 3.

To answer a couple of queries:

The yard ran as a medium sized building firm from 1927-94, employing 50 people much of that time. Originally run by Harry Cro, and then by his 2 sons John and Philip. Philip still lives locally, and if a few of you wanted to come down I'd ask him to come and share his recollections. 

Re the sawdust and chippings, there is a wood burner on each floor. Philip told me they used to employ somebody full time just to collect the rubbish and feed the fires. I had a look in the burners today, and they're still full of ash. Thats probably another reflection of my inefficiency.

I have got planning permission to turn the building into a house, and it will return to its historic roots. But oddly, the workshop is of course its 20th century use, and our permission is to go back a further century to its oast house origins. The builders dismantled the oast rooves in 1949 as they were inconvenient to work with, we are putting them back. The stowage side of the oast, underneath which is the workshop, still has its original beautiful slate roof. I think you can see the Queen Ann trusses in Jim's pics.

Other queries;

Karl - I'm afraid its not for rent, but if you wish to buy 300 square metres of soon to be oast house you'd be welcome. It is actually something I discuss with my wife, that the building is so big that you could actually keep the 80 metre workshop as is – save a fair bit on conversion costs too.

Chris – they started winding down in the early 90's, calling it a day in 93-94. I then used the upper floor as a print workshop for a few years, now its a table tennis room.

Bugbear – you're right about the guards added later. I asked Philip how they complied with health and safety, apparently they did visit regularly, and they added guards as required. I have removed lots of the boxing and protective screens, otherwise the photo would show a lot of wooden and metal screens.

Re the engine, I think it was originally gas oil, and then converted to diesel. I have lots of paperwork information on the engine, which I will endeavour to scan and post, but I think I've already mentioned my efficiency.

Anymore queries please feel free and I'll do my best.

Regards, Ben


----------



## powertools (9 Feb 2012)

Many thanks for this thread what an interesting find. Maybe we should have a forum day out to visit and each make a donation to charity of Ben's choice.


----------



## Blister (9 Feb 2012)

Hello Ben

Good to see you have joined us :mrgreen: 

If you do get a group visit organized can you put my name down please as I would love to come and see all this British history 

Make a nice trip out and with the addition of a hands on worker ( Philip ) to explain everything in detail is the icing on the cake 

Hope to here from you soon :mrgreen:


----------



## katellwood (9 Feb 2012)

Ben 

My outlaws live in Broadstairs and I anticipate visiting sometime next week, If at all possible would I be able to visit.

Thanks in anticipation


----------



## katellwood (9 Feb 2012)

Wait a minute, five miles *east* of Ramsgate, isnt that rather wet :lol:


----------



## ben w (9 Feb 2012)

West of ramsgate West


----------



## ben w (9 Feb 2012)

Minster to be precise.


----------



## katellwood (9 Feb 2012)

This is obviously a coincidence however at the rear of the Holiday Inn near to the airport used to be a one armed man that sold second hand machinery mainly engineering but also of the type featured in this thread. I know he's long gone now but I spent many a happy hour browsing through his stock 

Ben would you be kind enough to PM me the address, I will speak with the wife and if you are agreeable I could pay you a visit. Its not very often opportunities like this fall on my doorstep so to say 

Thanks


----------



## ben w (9 Feb 2012)

Kattlewood. Hopefully you've received my email and tel no?

If you ring or email I'll give you the address

Ben


----------



## katellwood (9 Feb 2012)

Very much obliged 

Will phone at a more suitable time


----------



## wallace (10 Feb 2012)

If anyone is planning on visiting this brilliant place could they possibly take some video of the place and maybe upload it to utube. I would love to have a walk around, but its a tad far to travel.
Thanks Mark


----------



## urbanarcher (10 Feb 2012)

OMG :O that is A-Mazing as they say! I think that with a little care it would make the most amazing workshop/school/museum, seems a shame to tear it all out. It Looks like it was a buzzing place when first up and running. There was some serious investment there to set that up. Steam engine might be the most efficient way to run that place nowadays if you ran a sawmill there too and burnt the off cuts as fuel diesel is getting expensive. Its a shame I'm not closer there's some amazing photos there waiting to be taken. 
Ryan


----------



## AndyT (10 Feb 2012)

Jim and Douglas - many thanks for finding and sharing this - and Ben, thanks for being so open and welcoming!

After the first rush of fantasy dies down, and we each come to terms with _not_ being able to personally re-house these wonderful old machines, I think the discussion will veer onto preservation. I certainly agree that it's a rare and precious collection which ought to have a permanent display of some sort. But as Tony said, funding of small, specialist museums is almost non-existent. (Did anyone see a BBC4 series covering the Boat Museum at Ellesmere Port, to name one such case?)

The very best future would be to keep it all in-place, running as a business, using what it has as its own USP, if this was possible. (There are some examples in the US; Roy Underhill featured a steam and belt-powered window sash making plant in one of his programmes, and I also recall a box-making plant somewhere, still trading on its old machines.) But it would need a healthy source of funding and a dedicated bunch of volunteers. 

Ironbridge or Blists Hill would seem to be a good fit, but are both linked to their specific locations so would probably have to say no. There is an interesting belt-powered pattern-making and repair shop at the Welsh Slate Museum in Llanberis - but again, linked to the location. 

Ben, if this is all in part of your house, do you want to house a museum, or would you rather like the space?


----------



## Tony Spear (10 Feb 2012)

urbanarcher":i1xriskq said:


> OMG Steam engine might be the most efficient way to run that place nowadays if you ran a sawmill there too and burnt the off cuts as fuel diesel is getting expensive. Its a shame I'm not closer there's some amazing photos there waiting to be taken.
> Ryan



I'm somewhat doubtful about that! The existing engine is as far as I can tell, Gas/Oil
so you're looking at a "new"???? Stationary steam engine, and just as bad, a Boiler!

If the National engine that's already there is beyond recovery, then driving the whole thing with an elecric motor would seem to be the obvious way to go. (and a damn sight more efficient than steam I can tell you!) If the lineshaft/pulley/countershaft drive system is knackered then the only realistic solution is to motorise each machine individually, which shouldn't be too difficult as they're all driven from below.


----------



## Bluekingfisher (10 Feb 2012)

Some wonderful old machines there for sure but being the clumsy git that I am it wouldn't be five minutes before I was tripping over drive belt taking belly floppers onto spinning metal if it were a working shop.

I wonder how many of a crew worked in that shop, it must have been quite hectic and scary at times?

Anyway thanks for sharing, I enjoyed the tour.

David


----------



## L.S.Barker1970 (11 Feb 2012)

I have been reading this post for days now in awe, and unable to write up a decent response because of work commitments, but the weekend is here and my learned colleague Jack has given me an introduction, and so here we go.
Jim and Douglas, thanks for posting this up, it is truly unbelievable.
Ben, thank you for giving everyone the opportunity to see these beautiful machines, as far as woodworking machinery enthusiasts are concerned what you have in your lounge room is an Aladdin's Cave full of shinny Gold and treasure, I personally would be happy with just the Wadkin machines you have, but thats just me.
Gentlemen I have some catalogue cuts that I would like to share with the group on Ben’s Wadkin machines and some discussion, please keep in mind also that from the Wadkin catalogues I have the earliest only spans from 1939 to 1944, the catalogues cut’s shown are when Wadkin was trading as a LTD company, say from 1936 as Jack has mentioned.
It is also interesting to note that even from the later edition catalogue cuts flat belt machinery was still an option for some machines, and more than likely being fazed out in the late 30’s early 40’s.
I am of the belief that the CC model docking saw may have been purchased the same time or close to as all the other machines, the plate on the electric motor mentions British Thompson Houston & Co who were, (in association also with General Electric) the first to make Electric motors for Wadkin under contract in 1928, the Motorized CC,CF,CD, and CK models eventually replaced the AY Model Pendulum cross cut saw.
The only machine that has really eluded me is the DH Bandsaw, I am only able to find a DR model in my catalogs (which I have placed up any way for good measure), and lets face it any bandsaw with Wadkin & Co - Leicester, with Cast raised letters into the C frame must be very old, I personally have never seen this particular model.
Other machines that have been hard to find catalogue pic’s of have been the NB grinder, I only had the NL very similar but having a turn wheel rather than two handles to move the surface grinder side, I do own one my self and its a nice bit of kit indeed.
Also the small tenoning machine with the missing badge turns out to be a EHA model, basically the Model before the ECA, I only had a very small Pic of that one in the back of another Brochure, Wadkin did make a larger machine that was the EKA, the belt driven version of this was the EL.
The EV Shaper does make me curious though, for a very old work shop this machine is missing its original fence set up, and has been replaced by a relatively modern equivalent, this seems very strange to me.
None the less even just looking at the photos of this shop I feel very much at home, I hope the machines have a future either restored, in use, on display at a historical venue, any thing but taken to scrap, I feel this is very much a part of our history and important enough for even our children at least to see how we once worked.

Melbourne Matty.







The DR not the DH.




The NB not the NL, similar but you get the idea.




A small Pic of the EHA tenoning machine





















The CC Docking Saw.

















The MD Mortiser.













The SR Rip Saw, very similar to the Earlier, PD Model.


























The RM Under over Planer once again similar to the earlier MJ























Melbourne Matty.


----------



## jimi43 (11 Feb 2012)

Hi Matty

Thanks for the wonderful input to this thread....it is great to have original catalogues and Jack did say you were the man! He was not wrong.

I have been chatting with Ben over the last few days and it is his wish to preserve the "whole" in some way so I think we can rest assured that scrapping is not an option.

I think ideally we would all like to see this equipment brought back to life...it really is like a Marie Celeste workshop...the sawdust on the name plates was particularly poignant.

The publicity that this thread has generated has allowed options to emerge which would otherwise have been buried so let us hope that at the end of the thread...we are all able to see this time warp workshop restored to its former glory and working again as it was meant to.

Thanks again...your input has been invaluable.

Jim


----------



## No skills (11 Feb 2012)

Nice to see so much information on these old machines, made me chuckle to see the wadkin table saw with a mitre slot, so much for good/industrial saw benches not having one - if thats not a good saw I will eat my hat.

I hope we will all be kept informed with what happens, good luck to Ben with his project.


----------



## condeesteso (11 Feb 2012)

Wow Matty - unbelievable amount of info there. I had a really close look at the cross-cut saw and the controls were a delight, no play anywhere, motor was almost whisper-quiet. I would be sure all these machines were well maintained during their working life and given the build quality just need a clean and de-rust off surfaces only.
I like how Wadkin speak of 'an unequalled engineering job'... very Leicester engineer speak, that is.


----------



## Oryxdesign (11 Feb 2012)

jimi43":1yewqr3d said:


> Hi Matty
> 
> Thanks for the wonderful input to this thread....it is great to have original catalogues and Jack did say you were the man! He was not wrong.
> 
> ...



Has anyone considered approaching the museum of kent life?


----------



## Tony Spear (11 Feb 2012)

Take heart good people, but remember that it took something like 20 years to get the volunteers and the money raisers to get their act together on the Kempton engines.

If you're up for it, it's going to take a mighty commitment!


----------



## tool613 (11 Feb 2012)

L.S.Barker1970":1jxff9nu said:


> please keep in mind also that from the Wadkin catalogues I have the earliest only spans from 1939 to 1944, the catalogues cut’s shown are when Wadkin was trading as a LTD company, say from 1936 as Jack has mentioned.
> It is also interesting to note that even from the later edition catalogue cuts flat belt machinery was still an option for some machines, and more than likely being fazed out in the late 30’s early 40’s.
> I am of the belief that the CC model docking saw may have been purchased the same time or close to as all the other machines, the plate on the electric motor mentions British Thompson Houston & Co who were, (in association also with General Electric) the first to make Electric motors for Wadkin under contract in 1928
> Melbourne Matty.




Some more on the dates as far as the test number and tag details Matty i would like to add to you once again top notch post.

The test numbers do not necessarily contain the year of manufacture because test numbers were often allocated out of sequence to the date. The test number is a serial number denoting the mechanical/electrical testing of the machine to meet whatever market requirements the machine needed. Not all Wadkin machines were built in the same factory as Wadkin owned.The test department therefore issued their own test certificates with unique serial numbers for everything Wadkin sold which bear no relation to the date of manufacture, although it is possible to calculate the date of manufacture if you have a copy of the test certificates block list which no-one outside Wadkin is supposed to have.Now there's some dirty papers I would love to see.

*Green lane works testing department 1940*





The test numbers sequencing was adopted in the late 1930s probably a 1928 to 1942 period machine had the brass/bronzes name plates(Wadkin & Co) and were replaced by steel ones during WWII like the one on the ram saw Wadkin CC docker, although by the late 1940s Wadkin did revert to cast brass plates on some machines that where Wadkin LTD. The other clue to dates is the nomenclature. Prior to WWII Wadkin used to give their machines two letter names in the main, hence RA, RB, LS, EP, etc. The third letter would indicate the power source, e.g. "A" means AC motor, "D" means DC motor drive and no suffix meant that either there was no choice (i.e. the machine only came in AC motor or lineshaft drive method) or that the machine had been supplied with motor and/or switchgear. Sometime around WWII or possibly shortly after the suffix letter for motorised machines was dropped as lineshaft/belt drive was by then disappearing fast (Wadkin's last full-line catalogue to list them was actually in the 1930s although individual brochures did list them much later) and DC motors were available to special order only. The first letter referred to the "family" of machines - "R" machines were always planers, thicknessers or planer/thicknessers (e.g. RA, RB, RD, RE, RM, RZ, etc), "S" machines were all rip saw benches (e.g. SO. SP, SR, SS, SW, etc), "P" machines were all precision saw benches (e.g. PK, PP, PU, etc), "D" were all bandsaws (e.g. DE, DR, DS, etc), "L" were all pin routers, borers or recessors (e.g. LE, LS, LL, LM, LQ, etc) and so on. 

Things started to get a lot more confused after the Sagar/Bursgreen buy-out occurred with some machines originally built a Wadkin in Leicester being transferred to Bursgreen, Durham or Trawden and given a "B" prefix (e.g. LM borers became BLMs), some Sagar designs being retained to replace the older Wadkin designs and also getting a "B" prefix in front of the original Sagar name, e.g. the 6in BFS started life as a Sagar FS (and incidentally was the machine which replaced the Leicester-built RA small planer). Some machines even got odder names, like the AGS table saw (although there was also a BGS) and the MZC/MZF/MZM "family" of band saws, and this does not even make any sense. I would love to hear from any ex Wadkin employee that can confirm or add to this dating tool.


jack


----------



## jimi43 (11 Feb 2012)

Good LORD Jack and Matty...this place is a mine of very exciting information indeed!

=D> =D> =D> 

Thank Heaven for the colonies, that's all I can say! :mrgreen: 

Ben is considering various options as we speak Simon but thanks for the excellent suggestion...the more the merrier! :wink: 

Jim


----------



## Oryxdesign (12 Feb 2012)

I'd sure be interested in helping should the opportunity arise Jim


----------



## jimi43 (12 Feb 2012)

Oryxdesign":18pdapk6 said:


> I'd sure be interested in helping should the opportunity arise Jim



Night owl too eh Simon!? I just finished work....we won't go into that!

I think if a joint trip is organised you should take the opportunity...it is a real eye-opener to see a workshop like that...I've only seen a belt system in books...and old ones at that! One of the books I have has the entire planning information for such a setup...but I guess Wadkin would have been involved in setting up or planning this one...

A company spending that much money back in the 20s would probably have had an engineer visit too to install the entire workshop.

It is a testament to the Wadkin machines that not only have they survived for 70 years but that they have ALL survived equally and probably will keep on going for another generation or three! :wink: 

Jim


----------



## L.S.Barker1970 (12 Feb 2012)

L.S.Barker1970":2z0ei0ol said:


> None the less even just looking at the photos of this shop I feel very much at home, I hope the machines have a future either restored, in use, on display at a historical venue, any thing but taken to scrap, I feel this is very much a part of our history and important enough for even our children at least to see how we once worked.
> 
> Melbourne Matty.





jimi43":2z0ei0ol said:


> I have been chatting with Ben over the last few days and it is his wish to preserve the "whole" in some way so I think we can rest assured that scrapping is not an option.
> I think ideally we would all like to see this equipment brought back to life...it really is like a Marie Celeste workshop...the sawdust on the name plates was particularly poignant.
> Jim



Jim, Douglas and everyone thank you, and may I apologize if I come on strong with the "Heritage Lecture" It is just something I'm Passionate about, but judging by the amount of interest generated and all the excitement, I would have to say Gentlemen you have it under control. 
I have seen similar setups in my time broken up, some sold, some scraped and It always makes me sad, times are changing and we are losing our industrial heritage.
For me there will always be time to reflect on the way things were, I wish you all the very best on your new endeavor, as I will be watching from a far enviously.... 

Melbourne Matty.


----------



## Oryxdesign (12 Feb 2012)

jimi43":17a2jd5j said:


> Oryxdesign":17a2jd5j said:
> 
> 
> > I'd sure be interested in helping should the opportunity arise Jim
> ...



Keep me posted Jim, I'm keen to visit.


----------



## tool613 (12 Feb 2012)

L.S.Barker1970":sawxfwae said:


> The only machine that has really eluded me is the DH Bandsaw, I am only able to find a DR model in my catalogs (which I have placed up any way for good measure), and lets face it any bandsaw with Wadkin & Co - Leicester, with Cast raised letters into the C frame must be very old, I personally have never seen this particular model.



A little more on this bandsaw Matty. I beleive that the DH is a 24" saw With spocked wheel(just a hunch). They may even be cast aluminium pulleys. More information is need on this saw for documenting. What is interesting to note is how round the C fame is to the earlier DR. The upper pulley tension arrangement is centered under the steel not spooked wheel/pulley as well. The early DR boxed out the frame and made the saw larger in 30 and 36 there was also a hand brake add. 

here is a DNA 128" with a "Test Number" of 6812 (28" saw)in Canada with a squared off C frame but only the Wadkin & Co cast in the upper hub guard . This looks to be its next design change. Note that the tension design of the upper pulley is retained. 















Next up is one of the first Wadkin DR/DN band saw in 30" and 36". Note that this Wadkin DR is one of the first direct drive saw made in England with steel pulleys. The Motors looks small and there is a built in dust chutecast into the lower frame. Again the band tension design remains. the upper guards are round top too.






Some time in the 40s I believe all these old designs were reworked and the DR was changed again . This time they change the tension design and added the hand brake.This is my Wadkin DR with all the new features like Motor guard. back guard closing in the upper pulley that is no long rounded on top. Larger motors are added too and the blade guilds are up graded. the DR was the last of the cast C frame saws wadkin made. The Bursgreen BZB was to take off from here and it would not to long before Wadkin went to a steel frame saw. Wadkin was late to do this tho as others had 10 years early than they.







jack


----------



## Bill Mooney (13 Feb 2012)

I served my time in a shop that had these machines which wrier change for the electric versions. The shaft & pulley system was left in situ.
We had a morticer with 2 handles like the 1 in the photo, it is a dual head morticed, 1 head for a chisel, the other for a chain. The planer, circular saw, spindle moulder, crosscut saw & bandsaw are virtually identical to what we used.
Here is a photo we took of a lathe i used. It is a Wadkin with a 10'-0" bed which moved on a rack & pinion system to leave a 2'-0" gap between the bed end & pedestal. This allowed a turning of approx 8'-0" diameter or a 12'-0" long spindle. There is a tool post which also works on a rack & pinion, there is also a standard tool rest.
Hope this is of interest.


----------



## condeesteso (13 Feb 2012)

Bill, that is a phenominal lathe - any examples of the kinds of things being turned?? (not pics, just recollections).
And we seem to have found the 'Wadkin axis' - it follows a straight line from Canada to Australia (hence missing the U.K. all together).


----------



## Bill Mooney (13 Feb 2012)

Hi Douglas, thanks for your interest. We turned many a pattern on this lathe from wheels which you see in the picture to liners for steel vessels. These large pieces were made from segments cut on the bandsaw & glued & screwed together on a big circular backboard up to 8'-0" diameter fixed to a faceplate 16"-18" diameter. The segments were built up to 2'-0" deep. If reqd. these turned pieces were fixed together to make a deeper turning.
For large diameter turning the lathe has a free standing cast iron tripod toolrest which weighs approx. 3 cwt. It takes 3 men to move it into position, once set the toolrest is on a lockable articulating arm which adjusts the rest where you need it. This arm is modelled off the human arm from shoulder to wrist including elbow, this really works great. The rest is just too heavy to nudge up a bit so the arm is the answer as it can be used on the inside as well as the outside of a turning.
The lathe has no brake,so when turning large diameters & you switch off you have time for a cuppa while the lathe stops, so great was the inertia. 
Just a bit more useless information but it brings back fond memories, because anyone who used Wadkin gear tends to have an affinity with it.

Regards,

Bill


----------



## No skills (13 Feb 2012)

8' diameter pieces, wow :shock: 

Tools that built a country.


----------



## Nev Hallam (13 Feb 2012)

Dave 'The Wadkin Bloke' At timber team would like those pics.


----------



## Sawyer (13 Feb 2012)

Thanks for sharing this, Jim & Douglas - a great thread indeed!

A place I worked at circa 1990 had some similar kit, though poorly maintained. Still in daily use after 60 or so years though - a testament to British engineering.

I think someone has already mentioned this excellent website, on which I've spent many a happy hour: 
http://vintagemachinery.org/

All US stuff and I've often regretted that there isn't an equivalent for this side of the pond. Surely the excitement this thread has demonstrated indicates the need and sufficient interest for something similar 'our side'??


----------



## jimi43 (14 Feb 2012)

Indeed...Sawyer...this thread has exceeded even my expectations of popularity and contributions of the highest order!

I was looking back at some of the pictures and this very first one..the general shot caught my eye...






I noticed the templates up there on the beam....now any ideas what they were for?

The shape seems vaguely familiar....mmmm =P~ 

Jim


----------



## kirkpoore1 (14 Feb 2012)

Sawyer":106g31o0 said:


> Thanks for sharing this, Jim & Douglas - a great thread indeed!
> 
> A place I worked at circa 1990 had some similar kit, though poorly maintained. Still in daily use after 60 or so years though - a testament to British engineering.
> 
> ...



Wadkin and Bursgreen have entries on vintagemachinery.org:
http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=2238&tab=4
http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=3054&tab=4
http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=2776&tab=4

VM is volunteer run by a small staff, which is why it hasn't expanded much beyond US and Canadian manufacturers. Jack and Matty have contributed most of the info on these British companies. If you have information on these or other British manufacturers, you can send an email through the site at http://vintagemachinery.org/about/contact.aspx. 

As far as all the machines on this thread, I encourage Ben to get some good pictures and contribute them to VM. Which reminds me, I'm way behind on my machines...

Kirk


----------



## tool613 (14 Feb 2012)

Currently there are about 50 UK makers listed on the VM site. We(Matty and I) are looking to add more too. The English history of Wood working machinery is some thing we wanted to add. I hope to see some of you there soon.

Thanks for your help.


jack


----------



## ben w (14 Feb 2012)

Some photos of the belts, drive shafts, and engine follow. Excuse poor quality, junk, and exhibitionist cat.

I will draw a plan of the workshop later and post it., maybe in relation to these pics. 

Matty, thanks for that amazing catalogue, even a non woodworking heathen like me can appreciate.

Cheers, Ben


----------



## ben w (14 Feb 2012)

Incidentally, I spent ten minutes cleaning the top of the flywheel and was quite pleased with the result

http://s1079.photobucket.com/albums/w51 ... etc012.jpg


----------



## ben w (14 Feb 2012)

This is a rough plan of the set up

The mill is about 11.5m long from west to east. Thats left to right in the photo


----------



## AndyT (15 Feb 2012)

jimi43":ochwnxjd said:


> Indeed...Sawyer...this thread has exceeded even my expectations of popularity and contributions of the highest order!
> 
> I was looking back at some of the pictures and this very first one..the general shot caught my eye...
> 
> ...



I reckon the big curvy one is for making a staircase string - the bit at the bottom, where the first few steps curve round.

Like this, but more elegant:


----------



## Eric The Viking (15 Feb 2012)

Coupla thoughts:

1. Wow.

2. I used to play _under_ saw benches like that as a child. Grandpa's mill in Haslemere had them, converted to electricity (the mill was originally steam), with sawdust pits below the saw benches. We used to remove the baulks of timber covering the access, climb down in and have sawdust fights! A thrashing if you got caught though.

3. Bristol docks (owned by the council!) still operates a line-driven, metal-working workshop, with a steam engine. IIRC, although over 100 years old, it's not the original, and these days it's driven by an air compressor as its boiler was condemned. See: http://www.underfallboatyard.co.uk/history.htm and http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/230451299/in/photostream/ (not my pics, sadly). It may be a viable way of running your 'shop - if the belts aren't an issue for elf'n'safety, but steam is.

That's a rare treasure you have there. I'd label everything, especially the small tools associated with the machines!

Hope it works out really well - it should!

E.

PS: [edit] The text in the first link above says the shop _doesn't_ use belts any more. This isn't true, as some of the more unusual machines are still belt-driven (or capable of being so). You can see them running during Doors Open Day events.


----------



## studders (15 Feb 2012)

If anyone wants the Phone number of a good scrappie, PM me. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## jimi43 (17 Feb 2012)

Thankfully Studders...that is almost certainly not going to be necessary (more on that later! :wink: )

Ben...thanks on behalf of everyone for the work you have put into photographing the belt and pulley system and sketching the layout. All these images and plans add to the historical preservation of the site as we move forward to establishing a future home for this treasure.

Just to let you all know, I have been in contact with a very helpful gentleman at Daltons Machines who are the current owners of the Wadkin Brand and IPA and would like to quote part of one of their emails to me:




> ....The belt driven items would almost certainly date back to the 1920s but two of them, ie the Crosscut Saw and possibly the Tenoner (it is hard to see much detail of these) would be slightly later, probably 1930s, as they both appear to incorporate built-in electric motors.
> 
> I am attaching for your interest copies of extracts reference the belt driven items taken from a Wadkin catalogue of that period including technical information, specifications, etc, and also some images of the Wadkin manufacturing facilities dating from a similar period.



The PDF file he sent contains a fantastic record of these machines but since the file is 9MB in size I have placed it on my website and hosted it for download...WADKIN BROCHURES 1920s PDF CLICK FOR DOWNLOAD - *WARNING LARGE FILE*

_*File republished in the public domain by kind permission of Daltons Machines (Wadkin)*_

I would like to thank Francis from Daltons Machines for the time he has taken to research and scan this information as this will be of huge benefit for anyone wishing to preserve these grand machines. Clearly the Wadkin brand is in good hands!

Just to whet your appetites if you are not sure whether to download this scan....here are a few snippets...

Firstly the 1920s factory showing the bandsaws and other machines waiting for final dispatch:






Then the amazing Wadkin London showroom at Queen Victoria Street EC4 around the same time...how amazing that this looks just like the layout in the Kent workshop! I can just imagine the original owner going to London...standing in the middle of this picture and saying..."I'll have one of those...and one of those...and...oh, ok...one of those....". I know this because I have been to Axminster to buy some sandpaper and come away with the shop!!! :mrgreen: 

(if you look really closely you can see Douglas' grandad pulling on the lever of the morticer...just as grandson did many years later! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 






And last little teaser for you all...the DH bandsaw....






Some amazing historical pictures contained within this scan....bravo Francis! =D> =D> =D> =D> 

More later as the story unfolds! :mrgreen: 

Jimi


----------



## kirkpoore1 (17 Feb 2012)

jimi43":24eelbzh said:


> And last little teaser for you all...the DH bandsaw....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Holy Cr*p! Look at the size of the tensioning mechanism on that upper wheel! I guess Wadkin's motto was "If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing"!

Interesting belt shifter, too.

Kirk


----------



## jimi43 (17 Feb 2012)

Makes a change for an American to think that something is overkill eh Kirk!!!

Very refreshing! :mrgreen: 

Reminds me of the old Rolls Royce quote..."*Adequte* 6 litre engine"!!!!! :mrgreen: 

Jim


----------



## Tony Spear (17 Feb 2012)

kirkpoore1":jfqu1tii said:


> jimi43":jfqu1tii said:
> 
> 
> > Jimi
> ...



As my Grandfather, who was one of the top production engineers in Britain during the war and just afterwards used to say "if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing WELL!


----------



## studders (17 Feb 2012)

jimi43":15edp08k said:


> Thankfully Studders...that is almost certainly not going to be necessary (more on that later! :wink: )
> 
> Jimi


Seriously glad to here that Jim. Such finds are so rare and need to be preserved intact.


----------



## L.S.Barker1970 (19 Feb 2012)

ben w":3577yoyt said:


>



Guy's is it just me or can I see the remnants of the original moulder fence in that hole in Ben's Pic ?

Melbourne Matty.


----------



## L.S.Barker1970 (19 Feb 2012)

jimi43":25vcmtb4 said:


> Some amazing historical pictures contained within this scan....bravo Francis! =D> =D> =D> =D>
> 
> More later as the story unfolds! :mrgreen:
> 
> Jimi



Jim thanks for putting that information up, those factory and show room pic's are some of the best I have seen, just beautiful, a lot of history there indeed.

Looking forward to hearing the out come of this one too...

Melbourne Matty.


----------



## condeesteso (19 Feb 2012)

Sharp eyes there Matty - as said already, this site needs to be inspected very carefully, take loads of pics in vicinity of every machine (as parts are likely to be close to the respective) and label everything etc. I did notice quite a few parts just lying around... the odd fence etc!

This 'shop needs and deserves a working home... what's the hold-up? It's just a truck, a few bits of belt and an engine... I mean, it's not like it's complicated or anything.


----------



## jimi43 (3 Mar 2012)

Over the past few weeks I have been itching to update the thread and now...I am happy to report...I can.

As the old saying goes...."don'tcha just love it when a plan comes together?"....well this has to be the most amazing plan formulated from a mixture of connections, coincidence, perfect wants and needs and immaculate timing.

The unique time capsule which I started this thread describing....






....has officially been saved from the scrap man...has found a new home but better still probably the best possible home ever!

I am happy to announce that Maguire Benches....creators of possibly the best work benches in the world...have agreed to purchase the entire workshop!! :shock: 

Not only will they be purchasing it...lock stock and cutter block...but they will be shipping it to their workshop in Lincolnshire, restoring each machine in turn...and then reassembling the whole as the focal point in the manufacturing of their future benches!

The new owners visited the site today...with yours truly and Douglas of this Shire...to see what they had taken on for the first time....the smiles say it all...






Richard and Helen (Richard's the one with the two headed spanner!)....spent today documenting...rummaging....crawling down holes and planning the next stages of this huge transplant project. Ben (the current owner) gave us all a guided tour while his delightful wife, Sue made a superb lunch...after having cleared the entire workshop and generally tidying up to make the evaluation job a breeze..........






It really does look the part now...a fully operational workshop just waiting to have life breathed into it again.

Pulling manually on all the belts resulted in movement from the monsters...the blades turned...






...rising bits rose again....






...and the true beauty of the machinery was revealed....






The rust really is just surface....most of the machines would do what they do so well right now if the belts were made to turn again.

I had to check myself and stop in mid reach when I realised almost too late that I was just about to push the ON button on the tennoner...realising at the last minute that it was probably still powered up!






With just a little effort...Richard and I managed to move the tennoner bed a bit to reveal the virtually clean slipway below...






The major job of documenting the pulley system...measuring and documenting the locations, sizes and orientation to the superb diagram provided by Ben was down to Helen....






...and I have a good feeling that this workshop will be perfectly installed in its new location as a result!

And there are a vast number of calculations to make with all the belts, pulleys and levers laying dormant for the moment in the ever growing minefield of holes...






We think we have it all worked out and it was great fun doing so....






The great treat for me today was how Ben and Sue's three fantastic kids were also fascinated by the project...






...which was a breath of fresh air and proves that these wonderful machines can enthral even the youngest generations....






...and it would seem that even the older generations can't resist pulling that handle!!!






I have to thank Sue for sorting the chains out for the morticer though....they were so neatly arranged!






And of course the "big boys toys" didn't get missed for one minute...did they Richard!? :mrgreen: 






I have literally hundreds of photos of the day...pulleys (ALL OF THEM)...belts and machines at every angle...so I will update this thread regularly as required as the project moves along...but I can't leave this latest update without showing you the old National Gas and Oil engine as promised....first the huge flywheel...






...it's a real beauty...






Again with the perfect synchronisation that this project seems to be blessed, Ben intends to keep it and restore it alone and Richard does not feel it is viable to use in a working shop now...he has other plans (we won't mention the tractor just yet Richard!!! :mrgreen: )

I think it fitting to end this series of pictures with two that made me chuckle....






Never underestimate the invention of the youth when asked to find a power source and....






....remember to always read the safety instructions which come with your machine.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 8) 

A huge thank you from me to everyone today....and I am sure I am not alone in wishing the best to Richard and Helen in this little venture!

Cheers

Jim


----------



## MickCheese (3 Mar 2012)

That's just fantastic.

Well done all involved.

Mick


----------



## paultnl (3 Mar 2012)

Well done! I am so glad that these wonderful machines will find a new life.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (3 Mar 2012)

Excellent! Good luck with the relocation and resusitation.

May I offer a small suggestion based on about 25 years of active involvement with heavy engineering preservation (railway - standard gauge)? Talk to the local HSE inspectors about what the intention is, and listen to their advice BEFORE taking any expensive decisions. They are generally very helpful if approached in this way. Many are engineers themselves, and have a feeling for engineering heritage in consequence. I just get a small warning bell in the back of my brain-cell when commercial enterprise meets heritage installation. Done the right way, it will work; if it's done with all good intent, but the wrong way, and then presented as a fait-accompli to the HSE, they will be in a very difficult position, and will just have no option but to say "no". Avoid the trauma by working with them.


----------



## No skills (3 Mar 2012)

Good result, hope all goes to plan.


----------



## Blister (3 Mar 2012)

Great news Jim

Very pleased its all been rescued =D>


----------



## tool613 (4 Mar 2012)

Well done boys

the greatest things are never about progress they are always about history. I am so happy this came together.


jack


----------



## Bigdanny (4 Mar 2012)

Thats excellent news the whole collection is saved and kept together in one place. Well done to all involved.


----------



## Eric The Viking (4 Mar 2012)

Outstanding result for all concerned. Lincolnshire beckons, in due course . . . 

Well done to everyone, although I suspect the real work is just starting!


----------



## Sawyer (4 Mar 2012)

Great news. I hope we can look forward to pics. of the machines installed in their new home, in due course.


----------



## condeesteso (4 Apr 2012)

The big machine move is scheduled this coming weekend. Richard and Helen have launched a 'blog' and all progress will be reported there with pics. I'm certain Jim will keep this thread updated too, but the blog is well worth bookmarking anyway as it has a few other gems within:

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=40

I'm sure pics of the move weekend will follow. And I for one will be keen to discover the chosen power source in due course... a vintage tractor was one possible option. Neat.


----------



## houtslager (4 Apr 2012)

you'd better keep us up to date, or we'll send the machinery gremlins to you :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 

seriously all the best and please DO NOT FORGET PICCIES !!!!!!!!!

Karl


----------



## AndyT (4 Apr 2012)

So the whole collection is staying together, to be used for woodworking, in a business run by people who care about how they do things - that's fantastic news! Better than a static museum - that stuff needs to be used!

What a brilliant outcome for everyone. I look forward to following the story.


----------



## jimi43 (4 Apr 2012)

Great start to the blog Helen and Richard! =D> 

I don't think I have ever seen a set of circumstances gel so perfectly in such a short space of time.

The regeneration of this workshop into a fully functioning operation is indeed like a dream come true!

I am so happy to have been part of it.

Jim


----------



## bugbear (5 Apr 2012)

condeesteso":37py4gpc said:


> The big machine move is scheduled this coming weekend. Richard and Helen have launched a 'blog' and all progress will be reported there with pics. I'm certain Jim will keep this thread updated too, but the blog is well worth bookmarking anyway as it has a few other gems within:
> 
> http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=40
> 
> I'm sure pics of the move weekend will follow. And I for one will be keen to discover the chosen power source in due course... a vintage tractor was one possible option. Neat.



A vintage tractor is an excellent idea - quirky yet practical. Steam would have been a daily PIA, and big ol' gas engines are too rare and collectible to be affordable.

IIRC John Brown (of magazine fame) used a tractor PTO to run some of his shop.

BugBear


----------



## kirkpoore1 (5 Apr 2012)

Yes, a tractor driving the lineshaft would be a good solution, unless the lineshaft is going to run every day. In that case, a big old motor would be more practical (and cheaper). I once repoured the babbitt bearings on a circular sawmill that the owner powered with his tractor. The tractor stood about 20 feet away from the mill when in use, and the belt was about forty feet long and six inches wide. Very cool. (Oh, the saw blade was 54" across, and I got paid with a trailer load of red oak 1x12's. A fun day.)

Kirk


----------



## condeesteso (8 Apr 2012)

A quick taster of the move weekend. Day one (Friday) Richard and Kevin arrive in the truck plus trailer, with some useful gear onboard.

1] If Maguire made saw horses they would probably...






2] Same goes for the scrap for packing...





3] The very first machine sees the first direct sunlight in close on 100 years...





4] "Pass me that rat, would you Kev?"






(A proper thread of the move with pics will follow, but there's a bit more to shift yet and the entire shaft system to come up out of the ground.)


----------



## Andy RV (8 Apr 2012)

Fantastic! Can't wait to see more pictures.


----------



## jimi43 (8 Apr 2012)

Hi Douglas

Green with envy...that I had to work and missed this pivotal stage in the move!

Great pictures documenting it though....and considering that you were getting your hands very mucky too....I'm surprised you had any time to photograph anything. But it is hugely important that this historical record be made as you obviously realise. This is something to show our grandchildren...and makes a great link in the journal that will be Richard and Helen's blog.

It's not until you get the machines out that you realise how huge they really are! That P/T just about fits through those double doors! Amazing!

I sincerely hope that you get the main shaft out...I know that is a vital element of the move...as we predicted...the rest is child's play compared with getting that out whole and I think it would be hugely expensive to replace or re-join if you can't move the concrete out of the way. I agree....a large Kango is about the only way.

Are you planning to return?

Jim


----------



## ben w (9 Apr 2012)

http://s1079.photobucket.com/albums/w511/benw68/


----------



## houtslager (9 Apr 2012)

handy having a boom arm that can reach that far 

lucky pippers, nah not jealous at all :---) 

k


----------



## condeesteso (10 Apr 2012)

As promised more pics of the first day, getting the machines out.
The planer came first, and the first is often the hardest. They were all bolted down of course (8" high tensile at a guess) but had been bedded onto wet mortar on installation, and the mortar was a very strong mix of lime and fine sand which had then keyed to the rough cast surfaces on the machines. So freeing each machine was a tedious process needing considerable care to protect the actual castings. Once free, it became easier.
Next hazard was the studs sticking up which needed breaking away or cutting off. There were also quite a few steel conduits emerging from the floor... it seems this site was once prepared for 3 phase throughout, as the conduit matched that supplying the tenoner.
The final notable hazards were a very uneven floor which the wheels on the hoist and trolley couldn't handle, and the door threshold - a wood beam sitting a good 9" proud of the floor.
By about 8pm all machines except the bandsaw (well on the way) and the tenoner were out of the main workshop, leaving the sliding saw for Sunday... and the entire lineshaft system!

























more pics to follow!


----------



## Paul Chapman (10 Apr 2012)

Great to be able to watch this happening, Douglas. Keep the pictures coming.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## condeesteso (10 Apr 2012)

Sorry Jim, didn't answer!! - no couldn't do the Sunday or Monday so left them to it  But judging by the stuff on the truck they did fine... though I didn't notice the main shaft in there?? I was hoping I might get a chance to help recover that anyway.
I may be regarded as a complete nutter, but Saturday was the best 'day out' I have had in a very long time. I don't go out much.

p.s. we got a chance to run the sliding saw, to chop some packing... oh boy does that blade need a sharpen. I could have chewed my way through quicker, with much less smoke. The saw runs impeccably though - it's an absolute beauty. (Found 3 dado heads for it hidden in a cupboard too - pair of straight cutters, and a pair of big nickers per assembly, all mounted on Wadkin cast and balanced blocks - usual Wadkin standard.)


----------



## ben w (10 Apr 2012)

Hi Jim and Douglas,

I think I sent you a link to a facebook page, Simon?, don't think his site is private but I told him he might receive a few nutter friend requests. He's got great pictures on there. You might know how to paste them into this site.

On the Sunday I invited Tim Keenan round, who wrote the National article earlier in this thread. He still writes for various machinery publications and may well do something on this.

More to the point I had forgotten he is an electrician, so was able to help in quite a significant way by making everything safe. Pure chance really. What was it you said about a plan coming together.


----------



## Beau (23 Mar 2015)

Hi all. 

Newbie here. I was scouring the net for pictures of my old Wadkin bandsaw and think I have tracked it down courtesy of this thread. I have what I think is a Wadkin 24" D.H posted on page 6 of this thread. Some time in it's life it has been converted to electric but happy report the old girl is in regular use and my only bandsaw. Happy to post some pictures if you're interested. Thank you jimi43 for your pictures.


----------



## tool613 (23 Mar 2015)

Beau":2kue5rwv said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Newbie here. I was scouring the net for pictures of my old Wadkin bandsaw and think I have tracked it down courtesy of this thread. I have what I think is a Wadkin 24" D.H posted on page 6 of this thread. Some time in it's life it has been converted to electric but happy report the old girl is in regular use and my only bandsaw. Happy to post some pictures if you're interested. Thank you jimi43 for your pictures.


 very nice bit of old wadkin kit






jack 
English machines


----------



## condeesteso (29 Mar 2015)

Yes please Beau - definitely like to see pics. I doubt there are many of these actually in regular use. I handled that one and examined closely - a delight to the eye (my eye anyway). A bit light in the H&S department, but that's a part of the charm.


----------



## Beau (29 Mar 2015)

As you say Douglas they are a bit light on H&S but I have amended that where I can. It came with the most awful metal blade enclosure that needed 16 large nuts removing to change the blade. I striped it all off and made a wooden enclosure with a few curves to pay lip service to lovely curved castings. I have used some blade guides from Carter and a fence from the top the line Basato bandsaw to make it more user friendly.


----------



## heimlaga (29 Mar 2015)

What a nice bandsaw! That saw is surely a lot more solid than most band saws sold theese days.


----------



## Beau (29 Mar 2015)

heimlaga":1j3r4ixb said:


> What a nice bandsaw! That saw is surely a lot more solid than most band saws sold theese days.



You are so right there. I had a pretty expensive Italian machine before this. When tensioning the blade the housing would flex making precision set ups almost impossible. It's tables where not flat and guides where poor. I sold it on leaving enough to buy and get this old beauty up and running. Don't know what it weighs but my mates transit was grounding on the wheel arches bring it back to base. Just the cast table was a two man lift and flat as a pancake to boot.


----------



## tool613 (29 Mar 2015)

Beau":183ef9q1 said:


> As you say Douglas they are a bit light on H&S but I have amended that where I can. It came with the most awful metal blade enclosure that needed 16 large nuts removing to change the blade. I striped it all off and made a wooden enclosure with a few curves to pay lip service to lovely curved castings. I have used some blade guides from Carter and a fence from the top the line Basato bandsaw to make it more user friendly.


 Very few of these were made yours is only number 91 as Wadkin started at 100 when counting. your test number is low too and because this machine is Ball bearing it is possible that the guards are Wadkin. They do look the part in many ways to the DR. the 30" DH had a different tension arrangement and tracking system but was fully guarded. I do agree the C frame look lovely with out the full guarding but i would have a hard time sitting/working in front of one with out my full attention.

















jack
English machines


----------



## Beau (4 Apr 2015)

Wow that is a work of art and a deathtrap at the same time. Thanks for the info on mine and the fact it's a rarity. The guarding is all Beau circa 2000. Its not metal but laminated mahogany that I had leftover from a boat build.


----------



## wallace (4 Apr 2015)

Nice bandsaw Beau, I've got the DR which I picked up for £180. It was very rough but I knew it would be all good in the end.


----------



## Beau (4 Apr 2015)

That looks a beast and you beat me by £20. Love all your pictures of the process of getting her back to tip top condition. Think it safe to say when comes to bandsaws they don't make them like they used to.


----------



## condeesteso (6 May 2015)

Thanks for all the great pics - the Wadkins are all stunners. Love that one Jack - if I had one I would feel sorely tempted to strip off all the guarding just to show it off!
The Scothbrite video is great too, I'll try that on my T'saw table some time.
Excellent work all =D> =D>


----------



## wallace (6 May 2015)

Does anyone know if the machines saved were ever reinstalled at Maguire workbenches. I had a look at their website and noticed a wadkin planer handwheel on a finished workbench


----------



## DTR (6 May 2015)

As I recall some of the machines were in use at their old workshop. But since then they've moved to the barns, where electricity is in short supply!


----------



## condeesteso (26 May 2015)

That restored one above that Jack shows crops up on Pinterest, credited Shane Whitlock...? Is it alive and kicking?
It's a real beauty but I think the guards are a bit too pretty.


----------

