# panel glue up advice



## Nick b (12 Feb 2019)

hi guys, 

so i am building an oak table top at the moment and would like some advice on the glue up itself. i bought all the oak and had it planed on one face and jointed on one side and then ran it through my electra beckum planer to square up the adjacent faces. I then used a biscuit joiner to get everything nicely aligned for the glue up. Unfortunatly due to the capacity of my planer i had to cut down the original width to be able to pass the edges through on the planer. so i had 6 panels to glue up. 

i dont have any sash clamps or anything in my shared workshop so i set the panels on some 2x4s and glued up the panels with regular wide clamps.
everything is pretty dead flat needing only some minor leveling treatment with a belt sander before orbital sanding. The only minor problem is the last panel isnt so well aligned with the others and sort of angles up slightly. 

As a fairly novice woodworker i feel i have two choices at this stage belt sanding the last 3-4 inches on this section as this is the only really noticible part where its starts to angle up. or running a track saw through the glue line and biscuit joints and trying to glue it up to the rest of the panel flat again. 

its not a major slant but enough for me to notice when looking at the joined endgrain. what do you think would be the best route to go?


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## Nelsun (12 Feb 2019)

If it was me I'd cut, redo the edges and be thankful I noticed in time. Sanding / planing it flat will still leave you with a wonky angle underneath to haunt you forever more. I have a scarfed dado rail that wasn't joined deadly straight and I only noticed once it was on the wall. It irks me every time I walk past it even though it's hidden behind a curtain (homer)


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## MikeG. (12 Feb 2019)

Nick, beg borrow or steal some sash clamps. This job isn't really possible without.


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## sammy.se (12 Feb 2019)

What about making sash cramps using timber lengths and wedges - is that a realistic option?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## Nick b (12 Feb 2019)

thanks for the reply guys. I think i'm gonna go ahead tomorrow and cut down the joint and try and rectify it as much as possible. unfortunatly im too broke at the moment to afford a set of sash clamps nor know anyone to loan me some. i dont have a jointer to plane the edges again but a new blade on the table saw. so will try and get the edges sitting flush and do some dry fits to see if i can atleast improve it a little bit before glueing it up.

here is a photo of it in the clamps. the last panel on the right angles slightly down but not very easy to notice in the photo.


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## Nelsun (12 Feb 2019)

You mentioned a track saw which would probably be easier than humffing that over a table saw. Cut once to separate the offending piece then secure both pieces (screws in the ends or hot glue and ensuring the pieces are level) and cut again down the gap ensuring the blade takes a bit off each. The resulting kerf should give you two pieces that will mate together. Depending on the blade you have you may want to do some tidying up with a pane.

Table or track saw you're going to end up with a narrower piece on the end but hopefully not too much.


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## Nick b (12 Feb 2019)

Nelsun":3ckhjfm0 said:


> You mentioned a track saw which would probably be easier than humffing that over a table saw. Cut once to separate the offending piece then secure both pieces (screws in the ends or hot glue and ensuring the pieces are level) and cut again down the gap ensuring the blade takes a bit off each. The resulting kerf should give you two pieces that will mate together. Depending on the blade you have you may want to do some tidying up with a pane.
> 
> Table or track saw you're going to end up with a narrower piece on the end but hopefully not too much.



Thanks Nelson! that seems like a solid idea! think i saw someone doing the same on a youtube video. assuming i would need to foam underneath the panels for that. Think i will give that one a go tomorrow!


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## Hornbeam (12 Feb 2019)

Nick, beg borrow or steal some sash clamps. This job isn't really possible without.

Hi Nick. Where abouts are you.
Ian


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Feb 2019)

Berlin.


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## Nick b (12 Feb 2019)

Hornbeam":31alpz8d said:


> Nick, beg borrow or steal some sash clamps. This job isn't really possible without.
> 
> Hi Nick. Where abouts are you.
> Ian



Hi Ian,

yup out In berlin at the moment although from the uk. Thanks for your input everybody will keep you updated on how this turns out. got my eye on some sash clamps for future panel glue ups. 

best,
Nick


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## memzey (13 Feb 2019)

All good advice above but you might do one or two things differently during your next attempt to help avoid the same thing happening again. If it were me I’d consider using bearers underneath the panel to raise it up a bit and cauls, across the width on each end, to keep it all level. This is what it looked like on an oak table top I did a year or so ago that also wanted to misbehave:





Good luck and let us know how you get on!


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## Cordy (13 Feb 2019)

Nick, your clamps look Ok
I use pipe clamps for that kind of work; which are good and cheap  

You need to learn about Cauls
More on Cauls


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## AndyT (13 Feb 2019)

If you don't have cash for proper sash cramps, in my experience alternatives do work. I've used scrap wood with screwed-on stops + folding wedges to edge join 8" x 1" softwood. Well worth trying. Remember to put some above and some below the job.

I've also used threaded rod / studding to pull up suitable cauls. You can get 8mm or 12mm quite easily from electrical wholesalers. Cauls can ve offcuts from building work. Obviously it's not as quick as cramps but as so often there's a trade off between cost and convenience/time.


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## Jacob (13 Feb 2019)

Doing them all together in one bash can be difficult especially if you don't have skills, good clamps, workspace etc. Sounds tedious but it's a lot easier of you just do one joint at a time: glue two pieces together, next day add another. Just have to fill in the time between with something useful, such as making the undercarriage etc.


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## Nick b (24 Feb 2019)

So I ended up cutting down the glue joint and taking it to a friends bigger jointer and jointing the edge square, re glued and beltsanded top. Pretty dead flat now 8)

Wanted to ask you guys what would be the best route for a novice to go on doing mortise and tennon joinery for the aprons and legs.

I thought either using a spiral bit for the mortise on the router table using some marked masking tape on the table as a indicator for the start and stop point.

Or cutting out the waste with a spade bit on the drill press and using a chilsel to clean the rest up.

I'm more hesitant with the router table method. I've been using it for basic profiling and template cutting but this cut feels a bit more advanced but could achieve smoother results.

On the other hand I'm not amazing with a chilsel either but feel this could be quite easy and the mortise would be hidden anyway.

The tenons I would cut on the table saw.


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## custard (24 Feb 2019)

For future reference, you don't necessarily need sash clamps to glue up a top. If you use hide glue you can do the job "old school", with a rub joint.

There are two main alternatives. Either you can stick to the traditional method and use Scotch pearls in a bain marie type arrangement (like the item in the background of this photo). Or you can use hide glue that's liquid at room temperature, like Old Brown Glue (available from Dieter Schmid in Germany) or there's a version available from Titebond. 

For rub joints I much prefer Old Brown Glue over the Titebond Hide Glue because Old Brown Glue gels more at room temperature, which is what you need for a good rub joint.






If money's tight learning how to use hide glue can save you a fortune in cramps.


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## Bm101 (24 Feb 2019)

I saw this a fair while ago but have never tried it. Buried deep in the favourites list. I nearly gave up looking for it but it always stuck in the back of my mind as a neat worthwhile tip.
Might be a solution. Might not. Worth posting anyway.
Poorboy parallel Clamps.

http://theapprenticeandthejourneyman.co ... el-clamps/
Worth (for me) looking at the website as well as the video. Can't give advice but maybe it might help.

[youtube]vSwlM7cf6mo[/youtube]


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## MusicMan (25 Feb 2019)

Whichever way you decide, do a trial joint or fix first. Your first ones will be wonky. But it doesn't take long to learn.

Learn how to mark it out properly from face edge.


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## Felix (25 Feb 2019)

Nick b":2dfh2coe said:


> So I ended up cutting down the glue joint and taking it to a friends bigger jointer and jointing the edge square, re glued and beltsanded top. Pretty dead flat now 8)
> 
> Wanted to ask you guys what would be the best route for a novice to go on doing mortise and tennon joinery for the aprons and legs.
> 
> ...



Check out either www.theenglishwoodworker.com or https://paulsellers.com. You will find a plethora of info related to morticing. You could make your own morticing guides to help keep your chisel vertical whilst morticing. The only way to increase your confidence with a chisel is to use a chisel....be brave.... if your mortice is slightly off it won't be seen.


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## Felix (25 Feb 2019)

bowmaster":2qc2oczf said:


> Nick b":2qc2oczf said:
> 
> 
> > So I ended up cutting down the glue joint and taking it to a friends bigger jointer and jointing the edge square, re glued and beltsanded top. Pretty dead flat now 8)
> ...



With regards to your panel glue up - it might be easier if you glue up 2 or 3 boards at a time and when they're dry glue the larger boards together.


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## Jacob (25 Feb 2019)

Nick b":3d58oqfd said:


> .....
> Wanted to ask you guys what would be the best route for a novice to go on doing mortise and tennon joinery for the aprons and legs......


Use face and edge marks, mark up with pencil, square, marking gauge - either two of them or one mortice gauge. Then practice on lots of offcuts making little T thingies.


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## Nick b (2 Apr 2019)

Thanks guys,

So I had some time to get back on this project. I cut all the mortises on the router table by marking the width of the bit on some maskin tape on the table and using my lay out lines on the legs to plunge cut and then and match up with the lines on the table. Worked pretty well and I'm left with some consistent accurate mortises for a first attempt although they are round ( not sure yet wether to round the tenons or square the mortises).

In my excitement/haste I went to cut the tenons on the table saw. No special tenon jig just flipping the aprons on the side to do shoulder cuts. They are not the smoothest but should be fine. I was left with some small inconsistencies on the shoulders where they are either raised or lower which I should be able to clean up with a chisel. Problem is I cut one apron to short before the tenon starts can't figure out how I made that mistake. It's shorter by a few millimeters then the rest. I have now started to glue up slices of end grain around the tenon with the hope of building material back up and then hopefully trimming it back square and to the right length to match the other aprons. I no longer have the fence set to where it was so will probably have to edge it close and cut till it matches the others.

Or should I just now cut all the other aprons shorter?

My tendons are also all a little to thick for my mortises. So I thought to take skim passes on the table saw to reduce the thickness consistently till they fit or is it more common to use a chisel on the cheeks till they fit?


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## woodbloke66 (2 Apr 2019)

Nick b":1gq7gi0e said:


> My tendons are also all a little to thick for my mortises. So I thought to take skim passes on the table saw to reduce the thickness consistently till they fit or is it more common to use a chisel on the cheeks till they fit?



Normal practice is to use a shoulder plane or preferably a rebating block plane to relieve sore tendons  or alternatively you can use a decent sized cutter in the router table and just skim them a smidge at a time until they're a snug fit. Much easier to trim the tenons rather than pare away the sides of the mortise - Rob


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## Nick b (2 Apr 2019)

Thanks rob,

Unfortunately I don't have a shoulder plane and my budget is a little tight this month. Router table would be a good solution but maybe a bit cumbersome on the very long aprons that overhang the table by quite a stretch. 

Thought to skim them on the table saw and then block and sandpaper. Will report back with how T goes


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## MikeG. (2 Apr 2019)

Pare with a sharp chisel. This is actually one of the easier skills to learn. You don't need more kit!


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## woodbloke66 (2 Apr 2019)

MikeG.":3jj2qaq7 said:


> Pare with a sharp chisel. This is actually one of the easier skills to learn. You don't need more kit!


Yep, you can of course use a chisel to pare the tenons but it's much easier to use a shoulder or rebating block plane. There is a small danger that you can pare the faces of the tenons unevenly, especially if you've got more than a smidge to take off, so in this instance, IMO the two tools mentioned are a better choice...but, whether you actually need them is a personal choice. FWIW, I had a rebating block plane for several years and never, ever used it (maybe once) as I used to trim all my tenons on the router table.
Not necessary any more....  - Rob


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## MikeG. (2 Apr 2019)

woodbloke66":24155bm4 said:


> MikeG.":24155bm4 said:
> 
> 
> > Pare with a sharp chisel. This is actually one of the easier skills to learn. You don't need more kit!
> ...



It's only easier if you've got one. 

The ideal tool, in my view, is a router plane, which ensures evenness of waste removal and thus the centralising of the tenon.


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## woodbloke66 (2 Apr 2019)

Nick b":b2o7qn0r said:


> Thanks rob,
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have a shoulder plane and my budget is a little tight this month. Router table would be a good solution but maybe a bit cumbersome on the very long aprons that overhang the table by quite a stretch.
> 
> Thought to skim them on the table saw and then block and sandpaper. Will report back with how T goes



OK, the other way is to cramp the offending rail on the bench and skim the tenons with a cutter held in a router. What you need to do is to build a roughly levelled surface (using scraps of wood screwed to a baseboard) all round the tenon for the router base to rest on or else you'll get the dreaded router 'tip' which you definitely don't want. Works a treat.

I wouldn't use sandpaper or you're liable to round over the tenons - Rob


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## woodbloke66 (2 Apr 2019)

MikeG.":352czvng said:


> The ideal tool, in my view, is a router plane, which ensures evenness of waste removal and thus the centralising of the tenon.



That would work as well Mike, but you'd need to support both sides of the sole to prevent the handraulic version of the dreaded router 'tip'...(^ above) as the cutter is quite narrow. Lots of ways of doing this job  and all work - Rob


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