# Time Wasters



## Lonsdale73 (2 Jun 2017)

I'm sure there are worse examples of human life however time wasters are the bane of my life!


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## Fitzroy (2 Jun 2017)

Tell me more, I'm interested.....


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## Lonsdale73 (2 Jun 2017)

Take your pick! From people who book me for commissioned work then either cancel at the last minute leaving me unable to fill the now vacant slot (and that's the ones who have the relative decency to cancel rather than let me turn up to find they're nowhere to be seen) to those who visit my website then ring to ask prices that are all listed on the website. Then there's the ebay; the derisory offers on items hat aren't even listed as 'or best offer' to the 'can you make the 100 mile round trip to deliver the item you have as a buy it now for £10 at no extra cost?', the "can I collect?" that never turns up, the 'is this still available' who, on learning that it is indeed still available seems to adopt an 'if it's not good enough for them...' attitude (something I'm seeing more of on here too!) 

And since you're from Aberdeen, I'll add Ryan "I'm definitely not signing for newco" Jack.


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## MrDavidRoberts (2 Jun 2017)

I'm fairly sure these forums are even bigger time-wasters...hence I have installed a software to limit my forum/junk site visiting to max 15minutes/day in total.
Why did I posted this... I'm not even sure.


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## katellwood (2 Jun 2017)

Why not take a deposit upon booking at least you will get some recompense should they cancel


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## marcros (2 Jun 2017)

MrDavidRoberts":2bdf4mk2 said:


> I have installed a software to limit my forum/junk site visiting to max 15minutes/day in total.



I for one certainly appreciate that.


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## Lonsdale73 (2 Jun 2017)

katellwood":kq0g1rb7 said:


> Why not take a deposit upon booking at least you will get some recompense should they cancel



Blood from stone springs to mind. As an example, I was approached by a young lady about a commission for her and four friends. Two dropped out as soon as they realised they'd have to pay anything upfront but three were 'defiantly' (should have rejected the commission on that basis alone!) up for it, right up till the point when deposit was required when they too backed out. I'd like to say that was the exception but more and more it's the norm. Another is "What's your day rate?" and when I ask "Do you pay one?" the answer is always - and I mean ALWAYS - 'No!' so I wonder why they bother asking? Other than to waste my time.


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## sunnybob (2 Jun 2017)

I worked for myself for several years. I understand your pain.
Sadly there will never be a cure for the disease known as "people"


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## powertools (2 Jun 2017)

It would seem to me that you have just entered the world of business.


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## Lonsdale73 (2 Jun 2017)

powertools":2rwpcs5h said:


> It would seem to me that you have just entered the world of business.



If only.....

Sadly, been doing it a long, long time and it never gets any better. People are people wherever you go and whatever you do.


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## dynax (2 Jun 2017)

Reminds me of a time when i was doing a job for someone, it got to a point where i really couldn't be bothered about doing it as wasted so much time trying to get them to make up their minds with what they wanted, anyway i started talking to their parrot, and in the end the parrot made all their decisions, even got a bonus as it was just what they wanted :?


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## RobinBHM (2 Jun 2017)

I get people that deliberately using me as a design service to provide them a drawing of an orangery which they then give to their builder to copy.

Or I get people who want a design, which they put into planning so they can sel, their house with planning permission for an orangery. These sometimes have an estate agents board out when you go round......

Or, I do a site visit, a design drawing, a quote email it off and never get even a reply. Slightly annoying when its probably cost the best part of £200

The worst thing is customers thst choose a small company with the knowledge that their contracts, terms and conditions and credit control are likely to be less robust than a large national company. That way they can aim to get away without paying for part of the job. 

I now research potential customers as much as I can. For intance a local enquiry was for a huge orangery 12m x 6m. On searching the web I discovered he ran a big development company that had left a string of unpaid contractors. Subsequently I heard from a tiler that had worked on his house, yup he did loads of extras, didnt get paid. In fact the customers tore up the extras invoice in front of the tiler.


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## Lonsdale73 (2 Jun 2017)

RobinBHM":3p3k3sxw said:


> I get people that deliberately using me as a design service to provide them a drawing of an orangery which they then give to their builder to copy.
> 
> Or I get people who want a design, which they put into planning so they can sel, their house with planning permission for an orangery. These sometimes have an estate agents board out when you go round......
> 
> ...



I spent many years working in print and we had one customer who would regularly request 'a proof for approval'. It was a horrendous job to set up with loads of waste to produce just the one copy. Oddly enough, it would never ever get approval and a month or two later it would come back in 'with amendment' for another proof. It was never an amendment, it was always a completely redesigned job. This went on for three years or so till someone finally listened to me and investigation revealed our 'client' was offering these as limited edition print runs so the proof was actually the order which he was getting for free and then selling on for a ridiculous amount! Not sure if that qualifies as entrepreneurial acumen or plain sneaky barsteward - I know which way I'd vote on that.


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## tomatwark (2 Jun 2017)

My policy is no deposit no job.

Also with kitchens no interim payment after manufacture no install.

However thing I hate like Robin is drawing and pricing for a job and then finding that the customer has gone elsewhere but used your plans.

I now give a rendered image with the estimate and don't give any dimensioned drawings for builders and electricians etc until I have the deposit.

This means if someone else nicks my ideas they then have to do the drawings to make it.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jun 2017)

An acquaintance I met a few days ago was driving a Tesco delivery van. I asked how long he'd done it, and said five years - he'd had two heart attacks from the stress of chasing bad debts, so had given it up. He was a bl00dy good builder. 
A friend of swmbo who fitted our last bathroom (a flawless job) told me he had had only two bad debts in twenty years - one a solicitor, and one an accountant.


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## murdoch (3 Jun 2017)

My experience has been that payment problems are usually the business owners fault and not the customers. You can be highly skilled and do a flawless job whilst also being a rubbish business man who's always whinging about bad customers. As soon as you realise that your the problem, you can do something about it.


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## Lonsdale73 (3 Jun 2017)

murdoch":gz6xnpvm said:


> My experience has been that payment problems are usually the business owners fault and not the customers. You can be highly skilled and do a flawless job whilst also being a rubbish business man who's always whinging about bad customers. As soon as you realise that your the problem, you can do something about it.



I freely acknowledge that I'm a very poor salesman and don't do anywhere near enough self promotion, blowing one's own trumpet was most definitely not encouraged as part of my upbringing! I see some of my peers doing much better than me - or at least appearing to be - and it's not because they're any better at what we do than I am (in many cases they're most definitely nowhere near as good!) but they are much better at selling themselves and networking. As one of them told me "It's not what you know, it's who."

An ex-girlfriend and a good friend have a record of being offered every job they've ever been interviewed for. Neither of them would claim to be more intelligent nor better qualified - not that either of them are stupid - but both ooze self confidence and have a "Of course I can do that" attitude, whether or not they can actually do it.

However, time wasters and problem customers are the problem of the poor mug subjected to them, not the fault of said poor mug.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jun 2017)

murdoch":1es9zit9 said:


> My experience has been that payment problems are usually the business owners fault and not the customers. You can be highly skilled and do a flawless job whilst also being a rubbish business man who's always whinging about bad customers. As soon as you realise that your the problem, you can do something about it.



I'd like to tell my friend that, but I value my teeth too much. I find that statement seriously ludicrous. :roll:


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## murdoch (3 Jun 2017)

All I can say is that I used to have the same problems until I sorted myself out and learnt to qualify customers and be firm with our t&c's. we know no longer have bad debts or problem customers as we can spot them and gently guide them somewhere else. It has nothing to do with blowing my own trumpet or promoting myself, just learning to not let people waste my time. I highly recommend entrleadership by Dave Ramsey for anyone in business, talks about these issues and how to deal with them.


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## Lonsdale73 (3 Jun 2017)

murdoch":31vz2otf said:


> All I can say is that I used to have the same problems until I sorted myself out and learnt to qualify customers and be firm with our t&c's. we know no longer have bad debts or problem customers as we can spot them and gently guide them somewhere else. It has nothing to do with blowing my own trumpet or promoting myself, just learning to not let people waste my time. I highly recommend entrleadership by Dave Ramsey for anyone in business, talks about these issues and how to deal with them.



I guess you're talking about getting paid for work already done? One of the problems I have is with people cancelling the commission before I've had chance to do the work and this is happening more now since I've 'sorted' myself out and stipulated payment up front. Previously I'd complete the booking then they wouldn't buy anything. In joinery, do you often find yourself losing out to amateurs, side-liners and wannabes offering their service for free, to get experience? Do you have hobbyists picking your brains to 'get more out of' their hobby, when getting more actually means eroding your sales by flooding the market with poor quality but free product? How would Mr Ramsey advise dealing with such scenarios?


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## DoctorWibble (3 Jun 2017)

Tomatwark has the right idea. Adapt the way you deal with customers to make wasting your time less profitable for them. Hand out renders or 3d sketches but never dimensioned drawings. Genuine customers will probably prefer it anyway. If someone insists on the drawings ask yourself why they actually need them? At the very least levy a steep charge to cover your design time and keep in mind that once you let go the drawings you're likely to be letting go the job.

Customers tend to assume that all contractors and trades are taking advantage and imagine these little tricks just redress the balance. In other words they see nothing wrong in it. Which is why its widespread and you need to protect yourself. Just explain why, keep it light, laugh don't moan and make sure to re-assure the customer that you don't suspect them of such underhand motivations. It won't lose you any profitable work.


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## Lonsdale73 (3 Jun 2017)

This thread was intentionally generic but is becoming joiner specific. Not all of us a joiners, I'm certainly not, and for me and other non-joiners, our issues and problems might be the same insofar as time means money however the specifics aren't always the same and nor are the methods of dealing with them. Some of my bookings are last minute, some years in advance. If the latter are then cancelled at short or no notice; short is bad enough and worse case scenario I might have an unscheduled day making dust in the workshop however turning up for a booking that no one thought to tell me was cancelled is a real pain in the proverbials. It's not drawings I produce as such however I do create something that is bespoke to each potential client, it's largely speculative in nature and I have to hope that they like it enough to actually pay for it and not simply steal it. I have changed my modus operandi - where applicable as it isn't always - and I've found since asking for a deposit to secure the booking and balance settled before work takes place I'm getting fewer bookings than this time last year or previous. Am I losing out? Probably not because if they can't commit before the event, I'm damned sure they won't suddenly cough up afterwards. And I know it's just not me. I spoke to someone a year ago who wanted my help with an idea she had. She said she'd been floating the idea for some time and sufficient interest had been shown to make sense of approaching me about it. I agreed in principle, told her what I required with suggestions as to how that could be achieved which - from feedback she had received - seemed a simple matter. A date was set, numbers confirmed and with a week to go, not one of the people who signed up for it came forth with their payment. We're not talking vast sums here yet the day before it was due to go ahead, the organiser had to pull the plug. That wasn't my fault, it wasn't her fault, can't even say it was the customer's fault since they didn't actually pay anything that would qualify them as customers. It did highlight that some people are full of the brown smelly stuff and you can't rely on even people you know really well to do the things they say they will.


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## treeturner123 (3 Jun 2017)

Many years ago I ran my own professional surveying business. In the ten plus years I only had 2 people who wouldn't pay. I took both to the then 'Small Claims' court and won both cases hands down.

One of the two then tried not to pay so I sent the bailiffs in. After giving the bailiffs a fictitious name first off, they did pay me and all the court costs.

The second tried to make out that I had done TOO GOOD a survey. The judges comment was that if I had done anything less, I would have been professionally incompetent. Pay up Mr client!!

He did.

Phil (now working for others)


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## HappyHacker (3 Jun 2017)

Working for the last few years as an electrician and have had not had payment problems, fortunately. 

One prospect who got my name from a plumber I know got me to quote for a rewire on a house he was doing up. I never give itemised quotes, but I had gone through what he wanted and the best place for sockets/ cable runs etc so in total a few hours work. Never heard anything more. I assumed the plumber had got the central heating work. About year later I had a call to quote for installing external power to a garage. I thought the address was familiar, it was the same house. The prospect had obviously done the work himself, the new prospect had bought the house, no electric certificates and the work was not Part P compliant and would have failed an proper inspection. I saw the plumber soon after and he had not got the job either and was annoyed about the time he had wasted there, he had been asked for an itemised quote but had not produced one as he had been caught like the before as well, producing bills of materials for DIYers to use themselves.

Previously while working as a contractor through an agency the agency declared itself bankrupt the day after issuing invoices to the clients. This left me and the other contractors as unsecured creditors and we got no money back from the receiver, however the client had to pay the receiver as they were legally bound to. I lost over 10K. The client did however take steps to help and gave me a decent bonus at the end of the contract.

I have now retired so I do not have to be nice to people anymore  Just got to decide who is going to take the least amount of money off me in the future so I can put my X in the right spot :-( Although through bitter experience I know whoever I vote for it is is going to cost me.


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## slate1234 (3 Jun 2017)

I know what your feeling I did a 1.2m job there was £240,000 of extras the client ripped the invoice up and laughed at me telling me they would see me in court if I could afford to take them to court, to cut a long story short a good friend is a barrister we ended in arbitration got 70% of what was owed but knowing they had to spend a bloody fortune on legal fees made that bit better, I must admit I had a few trips to the doctor, now its always a deposit or a upfront payment, never mind all the programs regarding cowboy builder's what about ar..hole customers.
Paul


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## Distinterior (3 Jun 2017)

I ALWAYS take a non refundable deposit from my clients at the point of order, no matter how far ahead the project is booked for.
I have never had a client refuse to pay a deposit under any circumstances. When something is being made to order as opposed to just coming off the shelf, so to speak, they realise that once the order has been placed, it can't be cancelled without financial loss to themselves. For whatever reason, if they choose to cancel the order, that is their prerogative but I will not be out of pocket if the order/manufacturing process has started.

I imagine if you order a new car, you would be expected to pay a deposit. Try cancelling the car order and then asking for your deposit back from the dealer.......!


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## tomatwark (3 Jun 2017)

In 20 + years of being self employed, I have only had one person refuse a deposit.
The man in question came into the workshop to place the order and he said he did not pay deposits.
I said no deposit no kitchen, so off he went thinking I would back down, 1 hour later he was dragged into the workshop by his wife with the cheque. :lol:


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## RogerS (4 Jun 2017)

Lonsdale73":1gxyceuj said:


> katellwood":1gxyceuj said:
> 
> 
> > Why not take a deposit upon booking at least you will get some recompense should they cancel
> ...



Simple tactic that works for me is to ask them to send you a photo of the room that the item is going in. 99 out of 100 never do. It goes no further and I saved all that wasted time and energy.

My pet hate are those sellers on eBay who offer a Make an Offer but then don't bother to respond.


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## RogerS (4 Jun 2017)

HappyHacker":37gly6nt said:


> ...... The prospect had obviously done the work himself, the new prospect had bought the house, no electric certificates and the work was not Part P compliant and would have failed an proper inspection. .......



Why not report the non-compliance ?


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## AJB Temple (4 Jun 2017)

I have been on both sides of this. Customers are wary of tradesmen because the building industry (and all of its various components) have a tarnished reputation for using deposits paid by one customer to complete the work of another / going bust / doing poor work / not turning up on time and so on. 

I used to run a property development company. This gave me some useful lessons in how customers ask for extras then argue they were inclusive (I have no qualms about proceeding to litigation) and also how untrustworthy some tradesmen can be. My own view is that to be successful in business, apart from the usual necessity of charm etc, it is essential to have protocols for the work. Very clearly set out expectations regarding timeline, deposit etc are part of that, as are fully comprehensive and clear T&Cs. BullSh*t radar is a useful attribute and it takes experience to develop that.


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## Lonsdale73 (4 Jun 2017)

RogerS":29anmzpr said:


> Lonsdale73":29anmzpr said:
> 
> 
> > katellwood":29anmzpr said:
> ...



With you all the way on the nuisance ebayers although such practices aren't confined to ebay, happen on here too. It's ignorance and that's a pet hate of mine 

I think if I was to ask for a photo of intended site I'd receive loads of photos of facebook since that's where the vast majority of my (sold or stolen) work ends up!


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## HappyHacker (4 Jun 2017)

slate1234":1vok5706 said:


> I know what your feeling I did a 1.2m job there was £240,000 of extras the client ripped the invoice up and laughed at me telling me they would see me in court if I could afford to take them to court, to cut a long story short a good friend is a barrister we ended in arbitration got 70% of what was owed but knowing they had to spend a bloody fortune on legal fees made that bit better, I must admit I had a few trips to the doctor, now its always a deposit or a upfront payment, never mind all the programs regarding cowboy builder's what about ar..hole customers.
> Paul



I worked with a builder who built a large garden wall for a customer with a very large house and garden. When he finished he took the bill to the customer who said "I know about people like you! Here is 2/3s of the amount, I am a barrister you can take me to court if you want, it will cost you a fortune and take years" He took the cheque and told his mate what had happened while he was putting the tools in the van. His mate said "I will be with you in a minute just some stuff to tidy up". The following week he was driving past the house and saw a Dynarod van in the drive he commented on the ******* having a faulty drain. His mate said "he has lots of faulty drains, I put cement down them all, as I know you would not do anything"


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## Lonsdale73 (4 Jun 2017)

HappyHacker":3rpce91u said:


> slate1234":3rpce91u said:
> 
> 
> > I know what your feeling I did a 1.2m job there was £240,000 of extras the client ripped the invoice up and laughed at me telling me they would see me in court if I could afford to take them to court, to cut a long story short a good friend is a barrister we ended in arbitration got 70% of what was owed but knowing they had to spend a bloody fortune on legal fees made that bit better, I must admit I had a few trips to the doctor, now its always a deposit or a upfront payment, never mind all the programs regarding cowboy builder's what about ar..hole customers.
> ...



I've found it's the ones with deepest pockets that are most likely to fleece you; guess there's a reason why they're the haves and not the have nots.

Since this is heading into tradesmen territory, my old house needed a lot of work doing to it and I called three numbers I'd been given to obtain quotes. First one didn't turn up when he was supposed to, said he'd forgot and arranged to come the following day. He did, but had forgot his tape measure, pen and paper so would have to come back the following day. I provided him with the required tools and got him to do the measuring while he was there. He, like the second one (who at least turned up at the appointed hour and suitably equipped for the task at hand), said he couldn't give me a quote on the spot but would take the measurements and get back to me with a price. By the time he did, the work had already been done by the third tradesman to visit, the second one I never heard from again. Third one came in, looked at what needed doing, reeled off a list of materials he'd need for the job, how much these materials would cost and how much it would be for his labour. The labour seemed a lot at the time although in fairness it was no more than garage mechanic charges as an hourly rate and I have to say he was spot on with the materials side and did a fantastic job with no mess to clear up after him. I brought him back and he installed a brand new kitchen, replaced the dining room ceiling, plastered the walls and built in a door to the garden and transformed the basement into a usable room. At each stage he told me what it would require, the associated costs and I heard him on his phone to someone, saying "Got a great customer here, tells me what he needs doing, I give him the costs he gives me a cheque." I'd have had him back to do the rest of the house too and I did offer him the work however he couldn't fit me in within the timeframe I had.


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## sawdust1 (9 Jun 2017)

Small claims this Tuesday, bouncing cheque, 2nd one, middle-aged lady too , 2 1/2 years ago for £2,500.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Jun 2017)

It should be as it is afaik under French law - a criminal offence to bounce a cheque. Takes the risk out of accepting them.


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## Penny (12 Jun 2017)

I needed some work done in my garden (remove and dispose of a dangerous decking area, level the ground, build a low retaining wall, set up and lay patio slabs), so called four tradesmen. One didn't bother to show up. One measured up by pacing the area (even when I offered him a tape measure) and then sent me a quote that was very, very low. One measured everything well enough, never asked any questions about what type of slab etc, then quoted very, very high. One came and measured, asked me all the right questions, answered all mine and gave me a quote at the rate I expected.

Guess who got the job (and only wanted paying when I was satisfied with the work)? The work was done to a high standard, and he was paid by bank transfer within an hour of me saying that I was happy.


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## lee celtic (20 Apr 2018)

Things like this are mainly why I got out of the upholstery game..

Having an old dear sat in the shop for 3 hours thumbing through 30 pattern books looking for just the right fabric for her £20 dining chair recover.. then just goes for cream vinyl like we had on the work bench.. 

And while your sat with her you could have been earning ten times more working .. 

We did get stiffed by a big building firm who we did some seating in a new sports complex.. they withheld 40% saying it was incase our work failed in the next 12 months so they could pay someone else to come and fix it.. we went to their head office where I dodged through security and marched straight into the boardroom during a meeting and dropped the claims court paperwork on the table in front of the directors and a new big client.. they paid there and then just to get rid of me.. 

Their Director paid up saying we would never work for them again... I replied "you took the words right out of my mouth"

And to get it away from building trades.. My son is a Tattooist and as he's just an apprentice he's not been allowed to ask for a deposit.. he can book in 10 people a week and only 3 or 4 will turn up.. His boss has just agreed to let him take a deposit because my son is spending 3 or 4 hours a day designing tats for people that never turn up.. even though his work is amazing...

One of his felt tip and pencil drawings.. just because this thread needs pictures..lol


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## julianf (21 Apr 2018)

About 90% of my work is custom 1-offs.

95% of that is export.

Everyone, rightly, assumes that they need to pay before i start converting stock into unsalable(to anyone else) product. I don't think I've ever had anyone suggest it should happen any other way.

It's strange that it's thought of as acceptable in some fields that people should work without security, whilst in others it's entirely the other way.

Possibly portfolio (which is obviously easier in some trades than others) is key to getting cash up front?


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## tomatwark (21 Apr 2018)

Since I posted last year about no deposit no work, I got caught out with a customer not wanting to pay for more expensive handles on the kitchen we made for them.

Because of this we now finally went down the signed contract route for kitchens, I had always managed to avoid this.

It has not made any difference to getting the work in, but at least the customer now has signed that they understand extras will be billed for.

The customer who got out of paying extra did say they would recommend us though, and have been true to their word and we have had a couple of really nice jobs from it, so you could say the money I lost out with the handles has been advertising.


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## Adam9453 (21 Apr 2018)

If a client insists they want dimensioned drawings before signing then i’d Suggest you offer to provide the drawings for a fee which would be refunded (or credited against the full order value) when they place the full order. This method I’ve found certainly separates those with real intention to buy from those just after free drawings


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## tomatwark (21 Apr 2018)

I never give a client dimensioned drawing until I have a cleared deposit.

I just give them a rendered view.

Also I won't do a major redraw either.


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