# Workbench Advice



## J_SAMa (15 Mar 2013)

Hi all,
After weeks of procrastination, I'm finally starting to design and build my first workbench. It will be a European style one, with an apron, fitted with a front vise and "L" tail vise. I'm posting this here because I've basically only hand tools to work with (and a circular saw for initial preparation maybe), so please take that into consideration.

*First of all, long trestle vs. wide apron?*
In most European benches I've seen or read about, there are both short trestles that connect the legs along the width and long trestles that run along the length (all of them mortised and tenoned). But it Paul Sellers' design, he simply uses an (very wide) apron attached to the legs by wedges and dadoes to prevent lateral tension from taking place, as shown in this video 11:05:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyDjZWo3b3U

Well, I understand that a wide apron with dadoes and wedges would tolerate more inaccuracy than M&T'd long trestles do. *But would I be compromising much strength and stability by using this design?*

*And how do I connect the top to the frame?*
Again, taking Paul Sellers' design as an example. He simply glues the top on the bearers and aprons, without any joints. I can't see a problem in this but a top glued on with no joint makes me feel inadequate...

I haven't decided on the species of the wood I'm going to use either. So make suggestions if you want to .

Thanks
Sam
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26/03/2013 Update:

I just made a sketchup model based on Paul Seller's design. I made the following two modifications:
The front apron is not full length, it doesn't cover the furthest 360mm of top on the left side so it's easier for me to fit a vise (I can make the back jaw liner so that it sits flush with the apron).
The stretchers were moved outwards to sit flush with the legs so that there is enough space for me to screw a bolt through the bearer into the top.







Link to the model:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... d&result=4


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## J_SAMa (16 Mar 2013)

Anyone? please? could really use some help now :?


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## GazPal (16 Mar 2013)

Hi Sam,

Paul's design is a proven one and a very good one too. His use of wedges is simply a method of making the bench easy to strip down and is one step you can happily leave out, as long as you still bolt the leg frames to the front and back aprons and coach screw the frames to the underside of the work top. It's the method Paul uses and it's perfectly fit for purpose.

In total you'll have eight mortise and tenon joints to make (Four per leg frame) and four housing joints to make (Two per apron) to accept the leg frames, plus chop to match the fixing method suited to the face vise you use. Everything else is either glued (Laminated top) or screwed (Leg frames to front and rear aprons - 2 coach bolts per leg - and underside of top - four coach screws per leg frame) into place. Tail vise fixing method to match the style and size you finalise into your design.

There's nothing wrong in using top and bottom stretchers in replacement of both front and rear aprons and you can step the front top stretcher back from the front edge of your bench for the sake of dog hole and end vise clearance. Simply mortise the front top stretcher into your end frame top stretchers instead of into the legs. The bottom stretcher can remain further forward and remain mortised into the front legs.

What size will you be building your bench and will it be kept against a wall or free standing in the middle of your working area?

If you have Sketchup I could work out a design and email it if you're in need of a few ideas or more clarification.


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## Jelly (16 Mar 2013)

I've seen several of Paul's benches in the flesh* and they're more than strong enough to cope with the forces applied by anything you'd expect whilst doing "normal" joinery... 
If you expect to be doing a lot of work with very large timbers, or otherwise applying a large loads it certainly couldn't hurt to have trestles at the bottom as well as aprons, but you'd have to be doing something exceptionally forceful to make one of those benches deform or fail laterally.

*I've never been on a course with him, but we live in the same village and he was kind enough to invite me over to his workshop and spare some time to give me some advice on his experience of the nature of the fine furniture business whilst I was considering options for my future.


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## Jacob (16 Mar 2013)

GazPal":495ljb9c said:


> ...
> In total you'll have eight mortise and tenon joints to make (Four per leg frame) and four housing joints to make (Two per apron) to accept the leg frames, plus chop to match the fixing method suited to the face vise you use. Everything else is either glued (Laminated top) or screwed (Leg frames to front and rear aprons - 2 coach bolts per leg - and underside of top - four coach screws per leg frame) into place. T......


That's it - for my bench and a million others.
12 components; 4 legs, 4 rails, 2 aprons, 2 top beams. Plus a bit of board for the well. 
You could omit one beam to make it a one sided bench with the apron raised to the same level as the front beam. This is quite common pattern.
I'd get the basic bench built first before bothering with a tail vice. Then you will probably then find you don't need one anyway.


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## J_SAMa (16 Mar 2013)

GazPal":3h8evaqn said:


> Hi Sam,
> 
> Paul's design is a proven one and a very good one too. His use of wedges is simply a method of making the bench easy to strip down and is one step you can happily leave out, as long as you still bolt the leg frames to the front and back aprons and coach screw the frames to the underside of the work top. It's the method Paul uses and it's perfectly fit for purpose.



Hi Gary,

Am I understanding what your post incorrectly or are you saying that simply bolting the aprons to the frames will work? I remember reading on the Schwarz's blog that bolts and screws will never work quite well for workbenches...
If I were to build it with the wedges, would it help if I glued them? I know it would make the wedges rather pointless, but that's better than bolts alonge right?



GazPal":3h8evaqn said:


> There's nothing wrong in using top and bottom stretchers in replacement of both front and rear aprons and you can step the front top stretcher back from the front edge of your bench for the sake of dog hole and end vise clearance. Simply mortise the front top stretcher into your end frame top stretchers instead of into the legs. The bottom stretcher can remain further forward and remain mortised into the front legs.
> 
> What size will you be building your bench and will it be kept against a wall or free standing in the middle of your working area?
> 
> If you have Sketchup I could work out a design and email it if you're in need of a few ideas or more clarification.



I'm thinking about 2100 mm by 600 mm, placed against a wall. And speaking of fixtures, do you think it is practical for me to drill horizontal holes might help. for holdfasts and dogs in the front apron? I obviously can't fit a deadman in there because of the aprons and thought horizontal h I know this seems a bit too early to ask as I've not even close to starting to build it but I'd want to ask it before I forget.

Another thing is the "feet". By it I'm referring to these:




The bench doesn't stand on the legs but stand on the "feet" that run across the legs (what are those called anyways?). Are those beneficial? Do they give you extra grip or something?

I just downloaded Sketchup and fiddled around with it for the last few hours. I'll base my design on Paul Sellers and hopefully have it drawn in a few days 

Thanks 
Sam


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## Jelly (16 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":3agvifc8 said:


> I remember reading on the Schwarz's blog that bolts and screws will never work quite well for workbenches...



I would question that... so long as the mechanical interface at the joint is good (that is you have a tight fit), then compressing it with a bolt should be more than sufficient, If bolted and screwed construction can keep large timber framed buildings standing, why not a workbench?

One of my benches is made with nothing but butt-joints, the trick is that everything was cut precisely square, cramped up and secured using nailplates, just like a trussed rafter assembly!

Also, When you asked about materials... The recieved wisdom is to make it all out of a tough hardwood, something like beech, but personally I think that's a waste of money. If I was you I'd build the majority of the bench out of structural softwood (redwood or whitewood whichever you can obtain cheaper) and just face the benchtop itself with about an inch of the toughest, most impact resistant hardwood you can lay your hands on (Keruing is good, and relatively cheap)...


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## carlb40 (16 Mar 2013)

My base for my present bench is similar to that one. Except i also have top rails on the sides. I just used 2 bolts through each of the rails to hold the bench top in place. After 8yrs + i have had nothing work lose etc.

The feet aid stability, so it doesn't tip forward/ backward. It is unlikely so probably more a design feature now


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## Muswell (17 Mar 2013)

My bench has top and bottom rails on the end frames, The lower rail is raised off the floor so I can clean underneath. Four separate legs make it easier to sit on uneven floors. The lower rail has a through mortice with featured joints and the top rail projects front and back from saddle joints. The frames are connected by a deep bottom rail with wedged through tenons, which project 20mm, and the top which is fixed to the top rails with one bolt per frame. It can be taken apart in 5min.

The top and legs are 4" maple. The top is 400mm wide then 200mm of removable ply panels then another 100mm of maple. There is no apron, I couldn't see the point of this and thought it was better for that wood to go into making the top thicker. The panels are good to allow clamping from the back and I'm very pleased I did this. I don't like the tool tray design because it just collects stuff.

This bench is so solid it desn't move at all, and there is no bounce when chiselling it's the floor that bounces. Bomb- proof is the word.

I would be cautious about making a top of hardwood over softwood because they will move differently as they season and then as humidity changes from day to day. That might mean that the top is always going out of true. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. I guess it all depends on how you will use the bench but I use mine as a reference surface and it does stay flat.

I have a Paramo quick-release vice on the front and another on the end with maple on the jaws. My only regret is making bench dogs. If I did it again I would use the Veritas dogs. I keep meaning to make something to support the end of long boards when planing. This would be moveable rather than being holes in a leg, which limits its use. For now, 8 years later I still just clamp a vertical board to the workpiece.

I hope this is helpful.


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## Jacob (17 Mar 2013)

The main thing is to de-mystify it. 
The fact is the very simple, common, Brit style bench, redwood (or even whitewood) as per Paul Sellers version is perfectly good for anybody. 
Anything else is a luxury and given a good basic bench to start with you might find more interesting things to make rather than another 'fantasy' bench.


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## Col (17 Mar 2013)

I have only just started using hand tools properly ( having done quite a bit of rough DIY round the house for years). A bench was my first real project which was built earlier this year. I bought the updated Christopher Schwartz's book 'the workbench design book' which shows you how to build a number of different workbenches and then goes through the pros and cons of each design.

I based mine on the Roubo example but all in softwood. The legs and short rails are mortice/tenoned and then glued but the long rails are just drawbored (so I could distantle to move if needed). The top (two lengths of 6"by 3" with a removal length of 4"by3&1/2" which flips as a planing stop)) has through tenons from the legs and is bolted to the upper short rails.

The Record vices (from car boots) are a 52 1/2 on the front and a 52 on the end. There is also an adjustable planing stop at the opposite end of the bench to the tail (one of the upgrades suggested in Schwartz's book). So far it's working - though I haven't yet drilled any dog holes - waiting to see where I will find them most useful rather than drilling row on row of them.


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## Muswell (17 Mar 2013)

That looks very similar to mine. Nice and simple. I didn't put in a shelf below because it would collect dust. I have a couple of loose battens which go between the front and back rails and on which I keep my bench hook and dusting brush.

I built my bench at a height to suit planing but I also do detail work for which this is not good so I have 1000 x 600 sheet of MDF on bearers which I clamp to the bench and raise the level by 150mm. No apron makes clamping to the bench easy.


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## Col (17 Mar 2013)

Muswell":2fznc8yq said:


> I didn't put in a shelf below because it would collect dust.
> 
> ... No apron makes clamping to the bench easy.



I left the ends of the shelf open so that they are easy to clean!

Should have mentioned the advantages of not having an apron - thanks for pointing that out.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Mar 2013)

Col - Some people swear by aprons, I've never really seen the need although when I make another bench, I'm tempted to put an apron on one side only and have the best of both worlds. The lack of them makes clamping easier, although that is probably less important when using holdfasts.
I spaced the holes on mine so that I could bolt my bench drill near the vice using the same ones - I can swing the drill out over something held in the vice.


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## Col (17 Mar 2013)

phil.p":1uk9z704 said:


> Col - Some people swear by aprons, I've never really seen the need although when I make another bench, I'm tempted to put an apron on one side only and have the best of both worlds. The lack of them makes clamping easier, although that is probably less important when using holdfasts.
> I spaced the holes on mine so that I could bolt my bench drill near the vice using the same ones - I can swing the drill out over something held in the vice.



Phil - good thing that the aprons debate isn't as emotional as the sharpening debate  
I have an old Progress bench drill - would love to be able to reposition it and swing over stock in the vice but it weighs it at over a 110kg so I don't move it much


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Mar 2013)

Mine's a Meddings - it's not that much lighter! I wouldn't wish to move it regularly.


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## Muswell (17 Mar 2013)

I used a holdfast on my first bench and it was often in the wrong place...hence my choice of no apron, a narrow bench and a couple of long reach F clamps instead of a holdfast on this bench.


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## Eric The Viking (17 Mar 2013)

I've two collets for my holdfasts: BOTH are in the wrong place! 

But... I have a rebuild of the top due soon (I'm keeping the frame as it bolts nicely together and doesn't shift), so I know how to reposition them now. And I've four collets altogether (three sets of holdfasts plus an extra collet), so I intend to fit one on the left leg or the left hand end of the apron (I'm left handed).

Bolts are dead handy if you have to move house, incidentally, although the removers weren't impressed by having to shift the top!


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## Muswell (17 Mar 2013)

Yes I hired removers to help reorganise our house to make space for our incoming grandson. I offered to remove the 10.5" vices but they told scornfully told me that wasn't necessary. As they staggered down the stairs with veins popping I think they regretted that.


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## Jacob (17 Mar 2013)

phil.p":1sy17fas said:


> Col - Some people swear by aprons, I've never really seen the need although .....


The main advantage of aprons is that they are the easiest way to stiffen up the whole structure - effectively bracing the legs and also adding support under the front edge of the top beam. 
What you lose in top clamping you gain in side clamping. Stuff stays on top anyway, so rarely needs clamping, but things fall off the side - so G clamps or dog holes in the apron are really useful.
The 'english' bench is also far and away the easiest to make. It's a bit boring to look at - less glamourous than the continental types but very functional non the less.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Mar 2013)

Jacob - I knew you'd come.


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## Jelly (17 Mar 2013)

Jacob":2w2fc77c said:


> The 'english' bench is also far and away the easiest to make. It's a bit boring to look at - less glamourous than the continental types but very functional non the less.



As in the classic School Workbench, with a vice on each side and a tool-well?


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## Muswell (17 Mar 2013)

Jacob":wzt6daq0 said:


> Stuff stays on top anyway, so rarely needs clamping, but things fall off the side - so G clamps or dog holes in the apron are really useful.



Depends what you are doing. It might stay on top but it can move sideways. I have just spent a couple of hours this afternoon with jigsaw and router making an L shaped marine ply worktop with cut-out for sink. Clamped it down to the top. And then I have a ball joint multi-angle vice which I clamp down for carving.

Now what a man really needs is 2 benches.


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## Jacob (17 Mar 2013)

Jelly":1j4o1mtp said:


> Jacob":1j4o1mtp said:
> 
> 
> > The 'english' bench is also far and away the easiest to make. It's a bit boring to look at - less glamourous than the continental types but very functional non the less.
> ...


Yes. Seen in woodwork shops everywhere, large or small, not just schools. The standard pattern more or less. Simplest to make and highly functional. Even if you want a fussy continental bench you'd do well to knock up a trad english pattern first, as a working tool.
Somehow they have been dropped from the agenda, mainly because they aren't very sexy and modern woodworkers don't seem to like simple things!


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## Jelly (17 Mar 2013)

Jacob":1dxinkz1 said:


> Jelly":1dxinkz1 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1dxinkz1 said:
> ...



I rather like them, I have one with double 12" quick-release vices and another higher one mounted on casters. Very functional and tough.

I'm not sure if I see the need for anything else...


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## J_SAMa (17 Mar 2013)

Jacob":3tm0ajar said:


> phil.p":3tm0ajar said:
> 
> 
> > Col - Some people swear by aprons, I've never really seen the need although .....
> ...



Hi Jacob,
By "English" workbench are you referring to this:






Or this one originally illustrated in Nicholson's book?





I can see that the Paul Sellers workbench resembles the second one in many ways. Having only short trestles and using wide aprons in place of long trestles.
The first one though looks harder to build... Because of the angle legs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for lumber choice, I'm thinking about Douglas fir, or even just white pine. This is my first bench and I know for sure that it's going to be imperfect and I'm bound to build a second one, more likely sooner than later. So I just don't want to invest too much in this one and save the money for something like beech or maple for my second bench. Plus since this is my first bench, using softer wood will make the project easier and in case I screw up, I don't loose too much.


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## marcros (17 Mar 2013)

my bench resembles the first, without the shelf and tail vice. The angled legs didn't make it any more difficult to build- just make sure you do all the angled cross cuts on the same mitre gauge setting. The angled legs should help resist raking, although with 9" of apron front and back, glued and screwed (also sitting in a rebate) it isn't going anywhere anyway.

There are many advantages and disadvantages of aprons- don't spend too long worrying about making the perfect bench, because at this stage you probably wont know what you need! I like my bench, but I particularly like the fact that if i need to nail a baton to it for work holding, I don't give it a second thought. If I want to see what a finish colour looks like, on the apron it gets slapped. It is a tool like any other, it is not a precious finished item, for me at least.

wood choice- use whatever is available and cheap!


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## Jelly (17 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":3760aorz said:


> Hi Jacob,
> By "English" workbench are you referring to this:
> 
> 
> ...



Whilst I'm not Jacob, _if_ we're on the same page about the workbenches he's discussing, it would be something like this:




That is a _very_ basic and world-worn example, but it's really something that simple!


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## Jacob (17 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":ohskv9md said:


> ....
> Hi Jacob,
> By "English" workbench are you referring to this:.....
> Or this one originally illustrated in Nicholson's book?
> ............


More like this below. New woodworkers seem to be unaware of this basic trad (British?) design and are more familiar with the historic examples above, or continental styles. Very odd!
It's as though someone has been rewriting the story, different benches, tool mania, polishing and sharpening frenzies, all relatively new.


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## GazPal (18 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":1g5h9btx said:


> GazPal":1g5h9btx said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Sam,
> ...



Horizontal holdfast holes in the apron can only ever add to the functionality of your bench and would never detract from it's utility.

In addition to the bolts, housing joints (Dado) let into the apron's as recess into which the legs locate helps provide a belts & braces approach to the build and locks everything together. There's no need to use wedges unless you plan on dismantling the bench to move it. I'd not glue the aprons to the legs, but would consider gluing them to the bench top. The use of NYLOC nuts and spring washers when tightening down the bolts will help improve grip and enhance the manner in which the bench holds firm. Planning the bench into sections - such as top, leg frames, etc.) and assembling it in sections helps make maintenance less arduous should you ever find a need to repair/replace elements.

I'd rather have each leg resting individually on the ground than use trestle feet (With the bottom stretcher resting on the ground) as any unevenness in the floor will impact on how level the bench sits. Yes, self levelling adjusters can be used, but I don't think they're truly necessary, plus having them simply adds to complexity.

The flare legged design you provided rings true of Schwarz's take on the English (Nicholson) bench and honestly adds little or nothing to practicality in build or use. Artistic flare perhaps, but needless as the bench is already longitudinally braces via the presence of aprons. His preference for Roubo rings loud and true throughout both bench books and - in all honesty - is heavily biased in favour of his past, present and (Presumed) future endeavors surrounding his fascination with all that is Roubo. Even his suggestion that the leg vise should be angled to add to clamping width is unnecessary, as clamping width can be enhanced by simply widening the vise jaws. The square legged design is far better and simpler, as it's far easier to equip such benches with end mounted storage cupboards for quares, saws, etc..


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## No skills (18 Mar 2013)

JacobMore like this below. New woodworkers seem to be unaware of this basic trad (British?) design and are more familiar with the historic examples above said:


> Its just whats in popular press at the time, if some body else writes a fair bit of material with a different slant in future years then views will change again. Fashions a funny thing, certain things (usualy very few) will stick around regardless of what happens and the rest changes like the wind.


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## Modernist (18 Mar 2013)

The problem with th4e "English" style is that the vise handle fouls the cupboard door normally including a few fingers in the process. I've opted for doorless cupboards and vacuum them out occasionally.


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## twothumbs (18 Mar 2013)

Having spent ages years ago thinking what I wanted /needed (not the same thing) I would be temped to build a good old British bench and use clamps, etc. Then you will learn what you truely need. Legs, rail etc. Simple and after all it is about making things and not benches. I would use bolts and screwed rod instead of wedged tenons....plenty of info around on that or I will expand what is involved. If the top is heavy it can sit loose so no need to fix down. If you are on your own then you have to lift everything so worth a thought. Made my first bench when I was about 14 from old fireplace mantels and fence posts. All 4" nail 'joints' with some dry half joints. I will not tell you how may decades it was successfully used before being replaced. Jacob is on the ball here. I am sure I saw a very old advert for continental style benches advertised as a gentlemans bench.... after all a gentleman could not be expected to use a bench which looked as as if it came from the local craftsmans shed. All benches would be made for the job or inherited, and a gentleman wouldn't know where to start so hence the growth of proper benches for carving and picture framing. People were there to make a living or earn money...not to spend time on fancy benches as protrayed by the american market via. books. Or am I wrong? When needs must..... keep it simple in redwood. Best wishes.


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## Benchwayze (18 Mar 2013)

Col":3314cxrn said:


> phil.p":3314cxrn said:
> 
> 
> > Col - Some people swear by aprons, I've never really seen the need although when I make another bench, I'm tempted to put an apron on one side only and have the best of both worlds. The lack of them makes clamping easier, although that is probably less important when using holdfasts.
> ...



That's where a rugged drill-stand comes in. Something like the Record, cast iron stand. Heavy enough to be stable and accurate, but not so massive as to make it difficult to lift onto the bench. It also makes a good job of drilling dog-holes in the bench-top, with a heavy weight on the drill table.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Mar 2013)




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## Phil Pascoe (18 Mar 2013)

I started to think about when I drilled dog holes in mine - all I did was get a piece of gash 4" x 2" and put a couple of perfectly vertical holes in it on my bench drill, then I clamped it down for a guide. Saved moving the bench drill, and I haven't got a drill with a 43mm collar at the moment.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Mar 2013)

John - I've got one of the older, heavier Bosch drill stands as well - I often bolt that down, as well. It's useful because a 43mm collar router fits it as well.


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## J_SAMa (18 Mar 2013)

Jacob":2bs0ec6s said:


> J_SAMa":2bs0ec6s said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



Well, I don't live in the UK... And yeah, the more I look at it the more it looks like Paul Sellers'...


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## J_SAMa (18 Mar 2013)

GazPal":1iiakyrk said:


> J_SAMa":1iiakyrk said:
> 
> 
> > GazPal":1iiakyrk said:
> ...



Hi Gary,
Thanks for clearing up the mysteries with angled legs.
I think I'll just go with Paul Sellers' methods all the way. He can't be too wrong. :wink: I'll use wedges and bolts as I might move once after I enter college (maybe to England or Scotland).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any opinion on lumber choice? I'm thinking about Douglas fir or even just white pine (or a mix of both?). It's my first bench and I'm certain that I'll build a second one. So I don't wanna invest on this too much now.

Sam


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## J_SAMa (18 Mar 2013)

twothumbs":25ohmz3x said:


> Having spent ages years ago thinking what I wanted /needed (not the same thing) I would be temped to build a good old British bench and use clamps, etc. Then you will learn what you truely need. Legs, rail etc. Simple and after all it is about making things and not benches. I would use bolts and screwed rod instead of wedged tenons....plenty of info around on that or I will expand what is involved. If the top is heavy it can sit loose so no need to fix down. If you are on your own then you have to lift everything so worth a thought. Made my first bench when I was about 14 from old fireplace mantels and fence posts. All 4" nail 'joints' with some dry half joints. I will not tell you how may decades it was successfully used before being replaced. Jacob is on the ball here. I am sure I saw a very old advert for continental style benches advertised as a gentlemans bench.... after all a gentleman could not be expected to use a bench which looked as as if it came from the local craftsmans shed. All benches would be made for the job or inherited, and a gentleman wouldn't know where to start so hence the growth of proper benches for carving and picture framing. People were there to make a living or earn money...not to spend time on fancy benches as protrayed by the american market via. books. Or am I wrong? When needs must..... keep it simple in redwood. Best wishes.



Hi Twothumbs,
Yeah... I'll be honest... I'm only 14 now... So I guess it's a good age to start building stuff with wood. :wink: 
Sam


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## nanscombe (18 Mar 2013)

I was lucky enough to do woodwork, and metalwork at school.

Unfortunately I stopped doing it after I left school and worked with computers instead.

It was around thirty years until I started doing some woodwork again.

It's a lot more satisfying to be able to see a physical result for your hours of work, and it doesn't disappear if there is a power glitch.


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## marcros (18 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":49q36e3a said:


> twothumbs":49q36e3a said:
> 
> 
> > Having spent ages years ago thinking what I wanted /needed (not the same thing) I would be temped to build a good old British bench and use clamps, etc. Then you will learn what you truely need. Legs, rail etc. Simple and after all it is about making things and not benches. I would use bolts and screwed rod instead of wedged tenons....plenty of info around on that or I will expand what is involved. If the top is heavy it can sit loose so no need to fix down. If you are on your own then you have to lift everything so worth a thought. Made my first bench when I was about 14 from old fireplace mantels and fence posts. All 4" nail 'joints' with some dry half joints. I will not tell you how may decades it was successfully used before being replaced. Jacob is on the ball here. I am sure I saw a very old advert for continental style benches advertised as a gentlemans bench.... after all a gentleman could not be expected to use a bench which looked as as if it came from the local craftsmans shed. All benches would be made for the job or inherited, and a gentleman wouldn't know where to start so hence the growth of proper benches for carving and picture framing. People were there to make a living or earn money...not to spend time on fancy benches as protrayed by the american market via. books. Or am I wrong? When needs must..... keep it simple in redwood. Best wishes.
> ...



in which case, build the cheapest bench that you can- you will probably outgrow it physically reasonably quickly and there are only so many times you can raise the height.


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## Benchwayze (18 Mar 2013)

phil.p":3974dj71 said:


> I started to think about when I drilled dog holes in mine - all I did was get a piece of gash 4" x 2" and put a couple of perfectly vertical holes in it on my bench drill, then I clamped it down for a guide. Saved moving the bench drill, and I haven't got a drill with a 43mm collar at the moment.



That 'template' idea might be very useful Phil. Thanks. I was wondering about how to make an MDF, MFT similar to the Festool model. That might work. 

(Incidentally, I haven't heard the word 'gash', used for 'rubbish' in a long, long while. 
Now, I'll stop swinging the lamps immediately, before I get carried away! :wink:

I also have a Bosch Drill stand (The one with the 'star' wheel for pressing the drill down. I also have an old Arcoy stand, and I just can't bring myself to scrap either of them!


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## bugbear (19 Mar 2013)

Benchwayze":2b5fzgem said:


> phil.p":2b5fzgem said:
> 
> 
> > I started to think about when I drilled dog holes in mine - all I did was get a piece of gash 4" x 2" and put a couple of perfectly vertical holes in it on my bench drill, then I clamped it down for a guide. Saved moving the bench drill, and I haven't got a drill with a 43mm collar at the moment.
> ...



I used a template (jig? Guide?) like that to make a precisely angled hole. I drilled a vertical hole, checked it's actual angle and then marked/sawed/planed the base so that the resulting hole was at the angle I needed.

BugBear


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## GazPal (19 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":11l7rr6f said:


> twothumbs":11l7rr6f said:
> 
> 
> > Having spent ages years ago thinking what I wanted /needed (not the same thing) I would be temped to build a good old British bench and use clamps, etc. Then you will learn what you truely need. Legs, rail etc. Simple and after all it is about making things and not benches. I would use bolts and screwed rod instead of wedged tenons....plenty of info around on that or I will expand what is involved. If the top is heavy it can sit loose so no need to fix down. If you are on your own then you have to lift everything so worth a thought. Made my first bench when I was about 14 from old fireplace mantels and fence posts. All 4" nail 'joints' with some dry half joints. I will not tell you how may decades it was successfully used before being replaced. Jacob is on the ball here. I am sure I saw a very old advert for continental style benches advertised as a gentlemans bench.... after all a gentleman could not be expected to use a bench which looked as as if it came from the local craftsmans shed. All benches would be made for the job or inherited, and a gentleman wouldn't know where to start so hence the growth of proper benches for carving and picture framing. People were there to make a living or earn money...not to spend time on fancy benches as protrayed by the american market via. books. Or am I wrong? When needs must..... keep it simple in redwood. Best wishes.
> ...




Hi Sam,

14 is possibly the best age the begin building a toolkit and getting into woodworking when all is said and done. Especially if you've a creative disposition.

Timber choice would be Douglas Fir if that option is available, but most softwoods are fine for bench builds. In the sense of durability I'd err on the side of investing in construction grade timber and - if lacking the facility to surface the normally rough timbers - have the supplier dress the timber for you. This type of timber tends to be pre-treated with preservative and in sizes more suited to bench builds, with a typical working lifespan of 20-30 years. I built my first workbench using such timbers when I was aged 13 and a couple of years before beginning my apprenticeship. The joints I used were trenailed (Dowelled) mortise and tenon joints and the bench was surprisingly similar in design to the one Paul uses. I'm now in my late 50's and the bench - unaltered - is still going strong.


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## AndyT (19 Mar 2013)

I built my bench when we moved house - 24 years ago. It has a frame partly of softwood studding and partly chipboard/blockboard on edge. It is bolted to the floor, which has a convenient step in it across the room. (It's a basement under a bay window.)
The old top was a sheet of chipboard with a slab of worktop over it.

Because it was all fixed to the floor and screwed together, it was completely stable and rigid but I've finally got fed up with the scruffy worktop so I have rebuilt the top. I looked at the Paul Sellers videos, bought some softwood from the local builder's merchant and glued up a thick solid slab for the top. This has some thick ply behind it to make a tool well, with another length of softwood behind, so larger work can bridge the well and still be level.

I've just drilled the holes for holdfasts and for the Veritas surface vice / bench dogs.

I didn't use a template or a jig. I used a 3/4" auger bit in a brace, checked for vertical against a try square. To get a good vertical, you can stop turning when the leadscrew has bitten, check, adjust and carry on. The long drill bit shows up any inaccuracies. It's really not difficult!


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## J_SAMa (19 Mar 2013)

GazPal":2i67ylxb said:


> Hi Sam,
> 
> 14 is possibly the best age the begin building a toolkit and getting into woodworking when all is said and done. Especially if you've a creative disposition.
> 
> Timber choice would be Douglas Fir if that option is available, but most softwoods are fine for bench builds. In the sense of durability I'd err on the side of investing in construction grade timber and - if lacking the facility to surface the normally rough timbers - have the supplier dress the timber for you. This type of timber tends to be pre-treated with preservative and in sizes more suited to bench builds, with a typical working lifespan of 20-30 years. I built my first workbench using such timbers when I was aged 13 and a couple of years before beginning my apprenticeship. The joints I used were trenailed (Dowelled) mortise and tenon joints and the bench was surprisingly similar in design to the one Paul uses. I'm now in my late 50's and the bench - unaltered - is still going strong.



Hi Gary, 
Hand planing alone is enough to surface/prepare rough material right :?. 
I don't think I really need it to be that durable. 5 years is plenty for me to train my skills to a certain level and use the bench, spot its flaws, redesign, and build a new one out of beech.
That said, using a 18 mm plank of beech to cover the top is probably a good idea.

Sam


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## Jelly (19 Mar 2013)

Hand-planed should be fine, there's no need to take it to perfect smoothness either; i find it helps to have a little texture to the surface for grip on the workpieces. 


If you take a little inspiration from the "english style" benches that jacob was on about and mix it with your idea about the 18mm beech facing on the top...
You could have a beech work surface at the front, an unfaced section to form the tool well, then another narrow beech surface at the back to keep bigger workpieces level on the bench.


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## GazPal (20 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":r2o0akvs said:


> Hi Gary,
> Hand planing alone is enough to surface/prepare rough material right :?.
> I don't think I really need it to be that durable. 5 years is plenty for me to train my skills to a certain level and use the bench, spot its flaws, redesign, and build a new one out of beech.
> That said, using a 18 mm plank of beech to cover the top is probably a good idea.
> ...



Hi Sam,

Hand planing is certainly more than enough when surface prepping your materials. You'll learn a lot while working on your bench and it all stands you in very good stead for future work and projects. Practise mortising on a couple of scrap pieces before you commit to creating your joints and you'll be able to resolve any potential technique issues before working on the real deal. Always try to work using square and measurements accurately laid out and marked, plus don't be afraid to double check before making your first cut. It soon becomes second nature and your confidence will grow while the tools you're using become extensions of yourself as you work.

I agree regarding timber choice and experimentation whilst you finalise future plans for a solid Beech bench. Everything evolves. I used pressure treated timber for my first bench because I had it on hand at the time. Plain softwoods are certainly more than adequate for such a project and - apart from expected maintenance - just as durable and capable of lasting several lifetimes of work before failing. Optional additional elements would be to face the upper surface using 12mm - 18mm ply, but not necessarily as a fixture. Simply keep this option as an element you can lay in place if e.g. working metal, painting, etc. and even 3.2mm hardboard serves well for this purpose. Unfinished ply, depending on the quality used, is often open grained and grabs dirt, dust and small debris - as do toothed surfaces - which can be inadvertently transferred onto workpieces. For this reason it often pays to use the integral solid timber top as your primary work surface. It can be more easily cleaned - as well as protected - via various means.


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## Jacob (21 Mar 2013)

This my bench. Cleaned up a bit since, with another vice on the other side.







This is Joseph's bench. It probably isn't early Palestinian, more likely English late 19C as spotted by Millais. I bet it had a well - covered by a ledged and battened door in the picture. A bit thin, maybe a bit of panelling.






Both of them have a bottom shelf which isn't part of the structure - just an add on.


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## morfa (21 Mar 2013)

I'm doing the same thing at the moment and trying to make pretty much the same type of workbench. You might find the WIP thread useful:

wip-my-first-workbench-t68280.html

Jacob - Why is there a big notch out of the middle of the apron?

Jacob & the other pros on the thread, I'd be quite interested to see a few photos of your workshops, or if you've posted them in the past a link to the thread?


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## ColeyS1 (21 Mar 2013)

morfa":virzecj5 said:


> Jacob - Why is there a big notch out of the middle of the apron?


Hes got a hidden drawer with all his honing guides in :lol:


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## carlb40 (21 Mar 2013)

ColeyS1":cywo30oc said:


> morfa":cywo30oc said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob - Why is there a big notch out of the middle of the apron?
> ...


And waterstones :mrgreen:


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## GazPal (21 Mar 2013)

I'd assume the cut-out is knee space for when Jacob's sitting at his bench, whilst his secret stash compartment is somewhere near the ejector seat control switch. 

I would post pic's of my great grandfather's workbench, but having one by Jacob, Joseph and Joshua in one thread might be a bit too much.


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## Andrewf (21 Mar 2013)

Mine has a well. Which is a nuisance at times but great when building big stuff, can just push all the tools into it's, without having to put them away. As can be seen its nothing special. No motice and tenons just halving joints glue and large nails. Built from old fence posts for legs and a secondhand vice from my grandfather's shed. But has put in stering service over last 10 years. My bench is very organic as it gets changed as required. Hence the numerous holes in top, apron and legs.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Mar 2013)

I made this point somewhere once before - I think the usefulness of a well much depends whether the bench is against a wall or not, as if it is you're within arms reach of racks, shelves etc., a well's not so important then. If it's like mine - in the middle of the room - it's difficult to work without a well, as you either drop tools on the floor or walk across the room every time you put something down.


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## GazPal (23 Mar 2013)

phil.p":3q3sfpju said:


> I made this point somewhere once before - I think the usefulness of a well much depends whether the bench is against a wall or not, as if it is you're within arms reach of racks, shelves etc., a well's not so important then. If it's like mine - in the middle of the room - it's difficult to work without a well, as you either drop tools on the floor or walk across the room every time you put something down.




Yes, to a certain extent, but much depends on whether a bench is used primarily as a tooling or assembly bench. If used as a tooling bench, I don't feel it necessary to have all round access, as vise are mounted at the front, but four sided access tends to be more practical if using it as an assembly bench. 

------------

Regardless of location, I find welled benches especially handy in the work I do. Tools in use can be stored within a well and kept clear of your work without any need to reach for things beyond or above your work space. Well inserts such as trays/shallow totes can be made to fit and hold various items such as hardware, finishing wares, etc., while additional bridging pieces can be used as elements of temporary work top section capable of supporting project elements laid across the bench width. This allows the welled bench to have a broader assembly area, whilst retaining the desired heft in the top that's necessary for heavier work on the front section of the bench. A work top needn't be full thickness across it's entire depth. 

I think the main point is the fact a work bench should fit your requirements and be capable of being adjusted should your needs vary. Many seem to forget further work top surfaces can be added to the main framework via a few simple adjustments and a bench can be adapted to suit any desired configuration.

One point to note is the fact it's far simpler to build a welled bench, than build one with a full depth work top. You can always make and add another work top section if or whenever necessary.


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## Jacob (23 Mar 2013)

It helps to realise that the Brit style bench is fundamentally different from the continental style (which is more of a work table). The Brit bench has more in common with the Japanese planing beam (well worth googling) which in turn is unlikely to be an exclusively Japanese as it's such an obvious idea. 
One planing beam on trestles makes a bench. Two beams makes a double sided bench. Why would anyone want to fill in the gap between the two beams, as it is so obviously useful?


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## David C (23 Mar 2013)

My removable, sliding well gives the best of both worlds.

David


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Mar 2013)

+1 so does mine.


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## Peter Gee (23 Mar 2013)

non vale la pena...


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## GazPal (23 Mar 2013)

David C":otgtb7jv said:


> My removable, sliding well gives the best of both worlds.
> 
> David



Ditto.


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## t8hants (23 Mar 2013)

_If you are a 'newbie', make what you can out of what you have and concentrate on making things on it, rather than trying to turn your workbench into a piece of pristine furniture: you will never make anything on it if it really is your "masterpiece", will you._ 

Aah a truth at last! I am making mine from salvage yard timber because its a bench not an heirloom. Picture will be posted when its done. 
Gareth


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## Jacob (23 Mar 2013)

Peter Gee":2a2pve0x said:


> ........
> I hope you don't take this as a personal 'thing', Jacob


No of course not. 
What I'm trying to say is that the confusion is with those who imagine that the familiar school style of bench_ is only a school bench_, but in fact it was/is found everywhere throughout the industry. 
A bit of a donkey to look at, particularly compared to your undoubtedly excellent "Banco Da Lavoro da falegname" but very simple and practical bench ideal for beginners and professionals alike. It seems to have been written out of the story somehow.*

*PS literally written out - it doesn't feature in the popular workbench books everybody seems to be reading. Landis misses it altogether even though he includes the 'Workmate' and details of many other types.
NB the double ended bench isn't only a school thing - it can be very practical depending on the space, light, nature of the work.


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## GazPal (23 Mar 2013)

Jacob":1dh3nrbc said:


> Peter Gee":1dh3nrbc said:
> 
> 
> > ........
> ...



I've read a few of the newer workbench books and it's no wonder so many newcomers become bewildered by what they assume is expected of them. More than a few ideas espoused via the writers were real head shakers when I read the U.S. take on "traditional" English benches, as I'd always been under the illusion benches were made to suit the work. Form follows function.


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## Peter Gee (23 Mar 2013)

Jacob":17nn1af0 said:


> ...compared to your undoubtedly excellent "Banco Da Lavoro da falegname"...



Not necessarily so...

http://www.azannunci.eu/annuncio-78660/vendo-banco-da-lavoro.html

(You didn't look, did you!  )


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## Jacob (23 Mar 2013)

Peter Gee":16kpbyz4 said:


> Jacob":16kpbyz4 said:
> 
> 
> > ...compared to your undoubtedly excellent "Banco Da Lavoro da falegname"...
> ...


 :lol: 
I had a quick browse here


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## twothumbs (23 Mar 2013)

There are plenty photos of double sided benches with one man on each side, of Victorian, Edwardian era, carving, gilding, etc, so using the space and provisions to a maximum in large workshops. Still a good bench design and possibly made on the spot to suit a use (ie outside on the job) just as sawing horses were and still are made for the occassion. Working on a site job at one time did not have transport to move heavy items about. Best wishes.


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## Jacob (24 Mar 2013)

Here's a single sided bench from Thomas Corkhill, F.B.I.C.C., M.I. Struct.E., M. Coll.H.
from "Joinery & Carpentry" vol 1, ed: Richard Greenhalgh, 1929, which is a brilliant little series of books which everyone should have.







nb the thing marked 'n' at the back is a saw handle. He recommends a saw rack behind the bench to keep saws safe but accessible.


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## Corneel (24 Mar 2013)

The "English" type was used a lot overhere in the Netherlands also. As was the German type with the nice but complex endvise. On our internet-bootsale you will find both. The Roubo type was also rather common, you see them too quite often. 

A picture of an old, well used English bench in The Netherlands.


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## morfa (25 Mar 2013)

Jacob":3stbmkes said:


> Here's a single sided bench from Thomas Corkhill, F.B.I.C.C., M.I. Struct.E., M. Coll.H.
> from "Joinery & Carpentry" vol 1, ed: Richard Greenhalgh, 1929, which is a brilliant little series of books which everyone should have.
> 
> 
> ...



So what is 'f' on the front?

Also interestingly enough, that's pretty much the same as what I'm making now. i.e. worktop at the front, well at the back and then another apron at the back.


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## Jacob (25 Mar 2013)

It sez ere:

"Every joiner should have a drawer f to keep his tools in condition, when they are not required on the bench. The drawer is hung to the bench top by hardwood runner r ."


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## jhwbigley (26 Mar 2013)

I have one these (second hand) 
http://www.emir.co.uk/workbenches/craft ... aker-bench 
For what it cost me, I wouldn't bother making my own. Only thing wrong with it is that I always want something out of a drawer or cupboard that is blocked by something in the vice.

These are often about on the ebay etc for £100 with two vices.
http://www.emir.co.uk/workbenches/dual/ ... -cupboards

JH


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## Jelly (26 Mar 2013)

jhwbigley":3hka8t1z said:


> I have one these (second hand)
> http://www.emir.co.uk/workbenches/craft ... aker-bench
> For what it cost me, I wouldn't bother making my own. Only thing wrong with it is that I always want something out of a drawer or cupboard that is blocked by something in the vice.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I paid £95 for one of my three benches, its a double sided school-type one with two huge record QR vices which are worth around £150 apiece, the other two were courtesy of my ex employer who was getting shot of a load of benches on casters, and one a gift from one of my dad's clients who needed a project for their apprentice to work on but didn't need the bench itself (that one became my first bench, 15 years on and going strong).

If you look far enough, I doubt there's any need to build your own bench until you have a specific purpose or set of requirements in mind.


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

Nice on here on ebay only a tenner so far!

When I made mine ebay hadn't been invented. Nor the internet come to think.


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## J_SAMa (26 Mar 2013)

Just made a sketchup model. Please check the original post. I think I've "invented" a few unusual things, like the non full-length apron...
Really not sure how my innovations would turn out


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## No skills (26 Mar 2013)

I do wonder how much deflection you will get in the over hanging section when you are chopping on wood held in the vise. Probably not enough to break anything but I think it would at least be annoying. Whats the top thickness?


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Mar 2013)

I wouldn't chop in a vice by choice - I'd clamp something in the vice, then clamp my workpiece to it so as to get the working area as close as possible to being over a leg.


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":28wjdv0t said:


> Just made a sketchup model. Please check the original post. I think I've "invented" a few unusual things, like the non full-length apron...
> Really not sure how my innovations would turn out


I don't see the point of your innovations. Why not just keep it simple and make a basic bench?


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## GazPal (27 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":1ixjqi88 said:


> Just made a sketchup model. Please check the original post. I think I've "invented" a few unusual things, like the non full-length apron...
> Really not sure how my innovations would turn out



Whilst a shortened apron is an interesting innovation, I'd honestly retain a full length apron, because shortening it would tend to serve little purpose other than allow the use of f-cramps at that location. This won't tend to reduce the amount of work or materials used during the build by much, but will tend to leave minimal amount of material and support to the left of a vise typically set into the apron.


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## J_SAMa (27 Mar 2013)

GazPal":28mv1h2p said:


> J_SAMa":28mv1h2p said:
> 
> 
> > Just made a sketchup model. Please check the original post. I think I've "invented" a few unusual things, like the non full-length apron...
> ...



Hi Gary,
I shortened the apron so I could mount a vise under the non-aproned area. With a full-length apron, I would have to cut an opening in it to fit the vise (which is what Paul Sellers did). I think that's just too much trouble. I could try and mount a more traditional vise (one of those that don't come with metal jaws), but it requires a lot of accurate drilling (and I don't have a drill press).


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## J_SAMa (27 Mar 2013)

No skills":19jsljvf said:


> I do wonder how much deflection you will get in the over hanging section when you are chopping on wood held in the vise. Probably not enough to break anything but I think it would at least be annoying. Whats the top thickness?


65 mm top and maybe also 18 mm of beech on top of that (it can never be too thick right?).


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## GazPal (27 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":1twocucz said:


> GazPal":1twocucz said:
> 
> 
> > J_SAMa":1twocucz said:
> ...




Hi Sam,

The vise is specifically located within the apron as an added means of support, but kept more toward the bench centre (Especially on shorter benches) for the sake of balance when the vise is loaded and in use. As drawn, the overhang on many shorter apron benches is only 225mm - 250mm and mounting the vise within this area can tend to place your bench at risk of tipping during use, unless the frame is weighted from beneath or secured to the floor. 

The apron chop involved is a standard procedure and an element which can be built-in during the construction process. I prefer to make the chop when fitting the vise as it provides a more accurate means of locating and securing it in place.

You don't need a drill press in order to drill the two leg vise holes accurately. Many methods exist for checking accuracy as you drill.

I'd aim to build the top at between 90mm - 100mm thick, with an apron measuring between 38mm - 50mm thick (50mm if you intend to use front mounted holdfast) and legs at 75mm - 100mm square, with 100mm x 50mm stretchers. This would provide a solid bench that's capable of withstanding a lot of work without a liability to shift under load or while you work.


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## bugbear (27 Mar 2013)

phil.p":tjklaqc9 said:


> I wouldn't chop in a vice by choice - I'd clamp something in the vice, then clamp my workpiece to it so as to get the working area as close as possible to being over a leg.



What, this kind of thing?

http://web.archive.org/web/200901140249 ... rtice_hold

 

BugBear


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## bugbear (27 Mar 2013)

GazPal":2esn0m8u said:


> Hi Sam,
> 
> The vise is specifically located within the apron as an added means of support



I don't understand.The fixing bolts for a (usual) vise go up though the vise into the benchtop. How is an apron involved?

BugBear


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## GazPal (27 Mar 2013)

bugbear":2lzwid26 said:


> GazPal":2lzwid26 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Sam,
> ...



The apron - in part - forms the rear jaw liner and extends the vise effective jaw width. By extension, the apron is part of the vise support, as well as preventing racking in the workbench during use.


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## J_SAMa (27 Mar 2013)

GazPal":2sq8qj1r said:


> bugbear":2sq8qj1r said:
> 
> 
> > GazPal":2sq8qj1r said:
> ...



Um... I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you show me a picture?


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## GazPal (27 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":v39m085w said:


> Um... I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you show me a picture?



I'll see what I can do in terms of pictures Sam and hope to post something later, but can produce a sketchup diagram showing details and email it to you if you'd possibly find that easier.


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## bugbear (27 Mar 2013)

GazPal":m9xi25ln said:


> The apron - in part - forms the rear jaw liner and extends the vise effective jaw width. By extension, the apron is part of the vise support, as well as preventing racking in the workbench during use.



Ah - so the apron doesn't (in fact) support the vise, but it does take some of the workload OFF the vise, which mean the vise is less likely to move.

(I already understood the racking bit)

Thank you.

BugBear


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## J_SAMa (27 Mar 2013)

GazPal":qwycha1f said:


> J_SAMa":qwycha1f said:
> 
> 
> > Um... I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you show me a picture?
> ...



Hi Gary,
Well I just made a model based on the original design.
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... d&result=4
If it's possible, could you please fit this vise http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... revstart=0 onto the workbench model (with the opening and everything)?

Sam


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## GazPal (27 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":2ljkgvar said:


> GazPal":2ljkgvar said:
> 
> 
> > J_SAMa":2ljkgvar said:
> ...




I already had a welled bench diagram with a vise of the same type drawn as fitted, so have emailed it to you. Record's #53 vise is quite a beast in terms of weight and is a large example, but an excellent choice if you manage to source an original.


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## J_SAMa (27 Mar 2013)

GazPal":162khzkr said:


> I already had a welled bench diagram with a vise of the same type drawn as fitted, so have emailed it to you. Record's #53 vise is quite a beast in terms of weight and is a large example, but an excellent choice if you manage to source an original.



Hi Gary,
Many thanks  !! Now I see that the vises have to be closer to the center than the legs.
My problem with that is though, I'm going have wedges alongside the leg, next to the side closer to the the center (the "inside" of the frame). They might interfere with the vise. should I change the design so that the wedges are on the side of the legs farther from the center (the "outside" of the fram)?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've not been able to find original Record vises, only Irwin Record ones:http://www.tooled-up.com/manproduct/irwin-record-t53ed-professional-quick-release-plain-screw-woodworking-vice-with-front-dog-10.5-265mm/8124/

and also these by an unknown maker on fine-tools:
http://www.fine-tools.com/schraub.htm
well, unknown maker, but since Dieter Schmidt is selling it, it's ought to be good.

Sam


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## GazPal (28 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":2ms1slfb said:


> GazPal":2ms1slfb said:
> 
> 
> > I already had a welled bench diagram with a vise of the same type drawn as fitted, so have emailed it to you. Record's #53 vise is quite a beast in terms of weight and is a large example, but an excellent choice if you manage to source an original.
> ...



Never a problem Sam. If you need any further detail just let me know and I can draft additional drawings into the same Sketchup file and re-send it. It will be perfectly fine for you to shift wedge location to the outside of the leg frame, but - if the bench is going to be used long term in one location - I'd consider omitting the wedge detail and simply set the leg frame uprights within vertical housing/dado joints cut into the apron and lock the legs into place using a pair of lag or coach bolts per leg.

Irwin Record vise are fine, but not as good as their older Record counterparts. One I'd consider would be the ones currently made by Eclipse, but in the same configuration as Record's 52.1/2.

http://www.tilgear.info/wwv900qrl--ecli ... pse&page=4

The 9"/225mm vise jaw width can be expanded to almost 18"/450mm by adding longer jaw liners and clamping depth should be large enough to handle the work you intend to be involved with.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2013)

GazPal":kkdsf8vh said:


> bugbear":kkdsf8vh said:
> 
> 
> > GazPal":kkdsf8vh said:
> ...


Of course if you've a decent thickness top and the inner liner is flush with the edge of the bench, you've effectively got a 3" - 4" inner jaw the length of the bench, whether you've an apron or not.


----------



## GazPal (28 Mar 2013)

phil.p":38451ge7 said:


> Of course if you've a decent thickness top and the inner liner is flush with the edge of the bench, you've effectively got a 3" - 4" inner jaw the length of the bench, whether you've an apron or not.



A bench length inner jaw liner is redundant unless the vise is the same length. Some prefer to face mount vise while others choose to inlet them and both are valid options.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2013)

Gary, you didn't make that point in your original post - so the long inner jaw is fine if it's the apron, but not if it's the bench itself?


----------



## GazPal (28 Mar 2013)

phil.p":2eye22wt said:


> Gary, you didn't make that point in your original post - so the long inner jaw is fine if it's the apron, but not if it's the bench itself?



That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The apron is part of the bench, but below the bench top edge. You can incorporate an element of the apron/bench top for use as the rear jaw liner if a vise rear jaw is inset into the bench, but use an insert. The bench top can't be part of the vise if the vise's rear jaw is face mounted.


----------



## Jacob (28 Mar 2013)

Sam you seem to making things unnecessarily complicated. Making a good bench isn't a design problem - it's just a question of which one to copy, they've all been designed already.
Why not just stick to Sellers design? Or this one below, either way you can't go wrong! I can post up the rest of the text if you want.







PS once you have the stuff planed up square you could make either bench in a day and then get on with some more interesting woodwork.


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## J_SAMa (28 Mar 2013)

Jacob":idqbp06h said:


> Sam you seem to making things unnecessarily complicated. Making a good bench isn't a design problem - it's just a question of which one to copy, they've all been designed already.
> Why not just stick to Sellers design? Or this one below, either way you can't go wrong! I can post up the rest of the text if you want.
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Jacob
Well, that's what I'm doing now. I've finally decided to stick with the original Paul Sellers' design.
Design nothing... That's the key to a good bench I guess.
Sam

PS: building it in a day? Simply making all the laminated pieces can take me 3 days... I don't have many clamps.


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## GazPal (28 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":3h9a3ci1 said:


> Jacob":3h9a3ci1 said:
> 
> 
> > Sam you seem to making things unnecessarily complicated. Making a good bench isn't a design problem - it's just a question of which one to copy, they've all been designed already.
> ...




How many clamps do you have?


----------



## J_SAMa (28 Mar 2013)

GazPal":3t8kmg4d said:


> J_SAMa":3t8kmg4d said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3t8kmg4d said:
> ...



Only 6 long ones... And some shorter f-clamps


----------



## GazPal (28 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":28qugas3 said:


> Only 6 long ones... And some shorter f-clamps




If you check out cramp heads, you could consider adding a couple of sets to what you have. They're an option which can help add a little flexibility to your set up.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... prod32169/


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## J_SAMa (28 Mar 2013)

GazPal":2ac84tpj said:


> J_SAMa":2ac84tpj said:
> 
> 
> > Only 6 long ones... And some shorter f-clamps
> ...



Those are cool, but aluminum sash clamps are actually cheaper and more stress-resistant than wood.


----------



## GazPal (28 Mar 2013)

J_SAMa":l4rq1gez said:


> GazPal":l4rq1gez said:
> 
> 
> > J_SAMa":l4rq1gez said:
> ...




I agree regarding the cost of cheaper aluminium sash cramps, but with each set of cramp heads you have the added scope for expanding your clamping options via the use of longer or shorter bar stock (It needn't be timber), rather than be restricted to pre-fitted bar lengths. One week you may find yourself needing more sash cramps of a certain size and having such flexibility - using cramp heads - helps you avoid investing in more of one size than potentially necessary.

Laminated timber beams can be made and used instead of single piece sections and provide more strength and rigidity.

My own clamping set up includes approx 30 f-clamps (Various sizes) and 10 sash cramps each in sizes 600mm, 900mm and 1500mm, but I also have 8 sets of sash cramp heads and a selection of spare cramp bars among my other clamps (G-cramps, Klemsia clamps, violin clamps, etc.).


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## J_SAMa (31 Mar 2013)

Hi all,
Well, I had planned on using Douglas fir for this bench, but today I checked and discovered that my local home center sells a type of spruce (white, probably the type sometimes referred to as "European spruce") that is only a bit more than half of the price of the Douglas fir I can find. It's apparently planed all round. Does this homecenter grade spruce qualify for my workbench build or should I spend some extra money and stick to Douglas fir? It's probably more than just "some" money we are talking about here.

Haven't even started my build and I'm already having second thoughts... Not good, not good...

Sam


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## Jacob (1 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":267tnc26 said:


> Hi all,
> Well, I had planned on using Douglas fir for this bench, but today I checked and discovered that my local home center sells a type of spruce (white, probably the type sometimes referred to as "European spruce") that is only a bit more than half of the price of the Douglas fir I can find. It's apparently planed all round. Does this homecenter grade spruce qualify for my workbench build or should I spend some extra money and stick to Douglas fir? It's probably more than just "some" money we are talking about here.
> 
> Haven't even started my build and I'm already having second thoughts... Not good, not good...
> ...


The whole idea of the Sellers bench is that you use the stuff that is easily available from your nearest shed i.e. most likely whitewood of indeterminate species planed all round. So you've hit the jackpot - just go for it and stop worrying - head down brain off!


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## GazPal (1 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":1b3pxah1 said:


> Hi all,
> It's probably more than just "some" money we are talking about here.
> 
> Haven't even started my build and I'm already having second thoughts... Not good, not good...
> ...



Sit back, breath and inwardly digest and analyse all information until you're ready to create your build. All we can do is make recommendations based on experience and first hand knowledge, but only you can decide on the style to build, method used and what to build it from. Materials availability and cost is no doubt a massive consideration, but this is where personal decisions need to be made and - if lacking experience - suggestions considered.

Everyone weighs up the pro's and con's before injecting hard earned cash into projects, tools and equipment, but there comes a time when you need to prioritise and decide how much and when to invest. It's not necessarily easy, or cheap, but the time isn't right if you're uncertain of which direction to travel. I suggest you take more time and do more research before committing to your bench build

The costs involved can be quite surprising once you crank a few figures around on a calculator/pen and paper. Bear in mind the fact you're the one who decides upon timescale involved, but you're not competing with anyone and if ever you need help or advice we're all too happy to offer help. If you'd lived much closer to us I'm certain my son would have been on hand to offer help and guidance when needed.

Deciding upon the type of projects you can foresee yourself undertaking will influence the style of bench you'll need and use. As you rightly said earlier, a bench design can be used and allowed to evolve to a point where you're ready to invest in different materials for a re-build or total design shift once you've accumulated more experience and practise. You will, however, accumulate quite a degree of practise during your initial bench build as it involves design, setting out, materials prep, joint's prep, glue-up, assembly, clamping, finishing and the fitting of hardware.


----------



## Carl P (1 Apr 2013)

I built a workbench after many years of fiddling about - I wish I'd built it earlier, it's far from perfect, I learned a lot from the build and subsequent use, obviously I'd do it differently now, but even with its imperfections its the most useful thing I've ever made and without it I wouldn't be able to do many of the things I now take for granted. It feels like a big step, but once you actually start it makes more sense. I'd go for cheapness - you'll be able to spend the difference on decent tools and in 2 or 3 years time you'll be in a position to know what you need from a bench and act accordingly.

No workbench is perfect, but working around the imperfections is a lot easier than no bench - I used to use a rickety cheap workmate and devised various ways of wedging stuff to the floor so I could plane it, life is so much easier with a bench!

Anyway, hope that's helpful,

Cheerio,

Carl


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## Jelly (2 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":1mdlt955 said:


> Hi all,
> Well, I had planned on using Douglas fir for this bench, but today I checked and discovered that my local home center sells a type of spruce (white, probably the type sometimes referred to as "European spruce") that is only a bit more than half of the price of the Douglas fir I can find. It's apparently planed all round. Does this homecenter grade spruce qualify for my workbench build or should I spend some extra money and stick to Douglas fir? It's probably more than just "some" money we are talking about here.
> 
> Haven't even started my build and I'm already having second thoughts... Not good, not good...
> ...



The stuff from the home center is almost certainly going to be material fitting the specifications of European Whitewood, most likely Norway Spruce if it has spruce in the name. It's not commonly used in fine work due to frequent small knots, but it sees plenty of use in interior joinery and strength graded material is often used in carpentry for timber framing in buildings, and in a production environment for roof trusses and modular timber buildings.

I can see no good reason to spend extra on Douglas Fir... with softwoods, unless you need a specific properties, it's usually most economical to buy what's locally abundant*.

*I'm lucky in living in a county which is bounded by 3 significant Douglas Fir plantations, though the lack of kiln facilities locally brings it's own issues with accounting for wastage.


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## J_SAMa (2 Apr 2013)

Hi Jelly,
Yep, it makes sense now. Since it works for building there's no reason it won't be strong enough for a workbench. 
Sam


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## GazPal (2 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":17d476ee said:


> Hi Jelly,
> Yep, it makes sense now. Since it works for building there's no reason it won't be strong enough for a workbench.
> Sam



The end result will be a good solid workbench. :wink:


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2013)

Paul Sellers says so too! http://paulsellers.com/2013/04/softwood ... work-great


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## Eric The Viking (7 Apr 2013)

I started a long posting on the good and bad bits about my bench. Waste of time. Good bits: It's made mainly of reclaimed timber and it's heavy and it's flat and it's got a decent front clamping edge/apron and face vice (Record 52 1/2). Bad bits: everything else.

I just bought Chris Schwartz's book on workbenches from another forum member. It's brilliant: full of common sense and humour, and some nice photography and illustrations, and it has plans too. 

Schwartz doesn't force his opinions on you. Instead he discusses various aspects of the different types, _from the perspective of what you make and how you make it_. Of course there's too much information, but his point is that your bench is the biggest and most used workholding tool in the workshop, so it needs to do its job as well as possible. And, although he's known as a hand tool fanatic, he makes frequent reference to how power tools have different clamping needs, and how you might accommodate both. 

I'm inspired to a MkII version of mine. I recommend the book and wish I'd bought it years ago.

Hope that's helpful -- but it can't be as helpful as Schwartz's book!

E.


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## carlb40 (7 Apr 2013)

Yes i agree that is an excellent book. I bought my copy as a xmas present to myself. Also requested and received the scott landis bench book as a present, but IMO is no where near as good.


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## GazPal (8 Apr 2013)

Both of Schwarzie's bench books are good reads - I like his writing style -, but the second is a compilation using other's input. I do get the sensation his bias remains heavily in favour of leg vise and Roubo Benches. He does "English" styled benches no favours by potentially misinforming readers into thinking they're torsion boxed tops and potentially frail while lacking clamping facility and heft. 

I also enjoyed reading his Anarchist Toolchest book and think it's excellent food for thought for anyone interested in crafting a chest of the type in question. I'd recommend erring on the side of caution if adopting his layout for sliding trays/tills and saw storage, as the likelihood for blunting stored edge tools is pretty high.


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## No skills (8 Apr 2013)

GazPal":3aide0fv said:


> Both of Schwarzie's bench books are good reads - I like his writing style -, but the second is a compilation using other's input. I do get the sensation his bias remains heavily in favour of leg vise and Roubo Benches. He does "English" styled benches no favours by potentially misinforming readers into thinking they're torsion boxed tops and potentially frail while lacking clamping facility and heft.
> 
> I also enjoyed reading his Anarchist Toolchest book and think it's excellent food for thought for anyone interested in crafting a chest of the type in question. I'd recommend erring on the side of caution if adopting his layout for sliding trays/tills and saw storage, as the likelihood for blunting stored edge tools is pretty high.



I got that impression as well, hes stuck on the roubo. Thats not a bad thing mind but other bench designs wont really be considered by the schwarz, I'm collecting material for the 'english' bench in that book - or my take on it anyhow.

The anarchists tool chest is mostly a good read, the tool chest design itself isnt for me (all that bending over to get the tools? not with my back) - I like the Dutch chest shown on his blog, I'm building that this week.


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## Eric The Viking (8 Apr 2013)

I can see he likes his Roubo, but...

... I'm not sure it's bias, as much as concluding it suits general cabinetmaking better than the English bench, which may be faster (tuned) for joinery. He has got a point about the front apron getting in the way of clamping to the top. The question is whether that is worse than not having it.

Of one thing I am certain: his Roubo is far too heavy for me! Mine must be less than half the mass and doesn't shift about, even though it hasn't got a front rail at all. I may not be using it hard enough, I guess, but I don't want to make it any heavier!


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## carlb40 (8 Apr 2013)

I want to get hold of his anarchists book. I have see the video of it with Roy underhill. Nice chest, but no way i could ever move something like that. 

I decided on the Roubo for my next bench, just cannot decide between draw bored tenon's or the through tenon/ dovetail version of the leg joints.


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## Eric The Viking (8 Apr 2013)

Roy Underhill has a nice take on it, with seemingly impossible dovetails for the front, because he cants the rear legs and adds a tool tray. I think I'd prefer the shelf although mine gets pretty cluttered without either.


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## GazPal (8 Apr 2013)

Eric The Viking":6e53xwp9 said:


> I can see he likes his Roubo, but...
> 
> ... I'm not sure it's bias, as much as concluding it suits general cabinetmaking better than the English bench, which may be faster (tuned) for joinery. He has got a point about the front apron getting in the way of clamping to the top. The question is whether that is worse than not having it.
> 
> Of one thing I am certain: his Roubo is far too heavy for me! Mine must be less than half the mass and doesn't shift about, even though it hasn't got a front rail at all. I may not be using it hard enough, I guess, but I don't want to make it any heavier!



Judging by the amount of publicity he's garnered from - and still enjoys - his take on Roubo's design, I'd dare say he's biased from that perspective. The resulting racking - face of bench thrown out of square with the legs - from seasonal changes in the bench he publicises would soon sicken me from working with such a bench and the exposed tenons would seldom be flush with the top surface. The main weakness is are around the top "dovetailed" leg tenon nearest the face edge, as this would - for me - prove a liability due to it forming a small section of the front edge of the bench. The resulting weakness was exposed as a contributing factor when his small Roubo failed dramatically - albeit the major flaw being in the punky quality of the timber he chose to use and mistakenly patched running shakes with coloured epoxy.



No skills":6e53xwp9 said:


> I got that impression as well, hes stuck on the roubo. Thats not a bad thing mind but other bench designs wont really be considered by the schwarz, I'm collecting material for the 'english' bench in that book - or my take on it anyhow.
> 
> The anarchists tool chest is mostly a good read, the tool chest design itself isnt for me (all that bending over to get the tools? not with my back) - I like the Dutch chest shown on his blog, I'm building that this week.



One aspect I'd alter regarding his Dutch chest would be to plan plane storage around the lower levels, store saws on the lid, while keeping small tool storage within the lidded top section. I'd consider lidded trays/boxes for chisels, drill bits and sharpening kit, so they're kept safe from damage and consolidate a better racking method for tenon saws rather than risk their edges dinged or dinging other tools or have tooth qualiity suffer through being knocked.

Saw blade guards are a necessity, plus you tend to find yourself not needing to resharpen saws as frequently if they're fitted during storage.  

Good sources for information/design ideas in that respect can be found if you consider patternmaker's multi-trayed boxes and joiner's boxes (Both upright and small chest designs), as all three types normally possess at least two trays, plus hold the majority of tools needed and can be mounted upon a purpose made stand within the workshop.


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## No skills (8 Apr 2013)

The through tennon and dovetail looks neat, the smaller cherry topped roubo he built for his daughter - its a very nice looking tool (after repair  ).

The Dutch chest I want to build will differ from what hes done (made from scrap as well so by default its slightly different), but I desperately need some sort of storage for my hand tools (theres none atm) so I'll be throwing the shell together this week and making modifications when I get time.


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## Eric The Viking (8 Apr 2013)

GazPal":jsjd4fes said:


> The resulting racking - face of bench thrown out of square with the legs - from seasonal changes in the bench he publicises would soon sicken me from working with such a bench and the exposed tenons would seldom be flush with the top surface. The main weakness is are around the top "dovetailed" leg tenon nearest the face edge, as this would - for me - prove a liability due to it forming a small section of the front edge of the bench.



Unless I've misunderstood, he doesn't do it that way. He suggests the leg tops are simply blind tenons, albeit drawbored. He makes a passing comment that you _could_ do through tenons "if you're feeling brave" (or simlar), and that the racking hasn't been as bad as he thought it might be.

My biggest issue with it though is the unnecessary mass. If I want to really thump something on mine, I just make sure I'm doing it over a leg, although the bracing I have makes it really rigid anyway. Since holdfasts don't work well in really deep holes, I struggle to see the point.

I haven't finished the book yet though - enjoying it too much to rush. I'm seriously considering a sliding deadman, as it would really help the workholding on mine and isn't that hard to add.


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## GazPal (8 Apr 2013)

Eric The Viking":1nh8emfd said:


> Unless I've misunderstood, he doesn't do it that way. He suggests the leg tops are simply blind tenons, albeit drawbored. He makes a passing comment that you _could_ do through tenons "if you're feeling brave" (or simlar), and that the racking hasn't been as bad as he thought it might be.
> 
> My biggest issue with it though is the unnecessary mass. If I want to really thump something on mine, I just make sure I'm doing it over a leg, although the bracing I have makes it really rigid anyway. Since holdfasts don't work well in really deep holes, I struggle to see the point.
> 
> I haven't finished the book yet though - enjoying it too much to rush. I'm seriously considering a sliding deadman, as it would really help the workholding on mine and isn't that hard to add.



I'll have another squint at my copy and could very well be mistaken in my take on what he'd written. I may have been too focused on his dovetailed, through mortised example.

I agree unnecessary mass is needless. I think it's the reason I prefer using my bench so much as - although it's pretty heavy as an 8 footer - it's nowhere near the heft he suggests people should use. Mine's still in need of re-assembling since we moved house last summer and I'm still in the process of building a new home workshop.


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## No skills (8 Apr 2013)

I dont think its been written anywhere but I do belive the top thickness/mass issue is down to the fact that these were 'commercial' benches, on larger sized (big!) benches several people could be working away and not all of them would have the luxury of working over a leg for chopping, having several people planing one one bench would need something with a fair bit of weight to stop movement as well. And lets not forget that obtaining large lumps of tree for the bench tops was probably easier back in roubos day  

FWIW


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## Eric The Viking (9 Apr 2013)

No skills":83m1olr8 said:


> I dont think its been written anywhere but I do believe the top thickness/mass issue is down to the fact that these were 'commercial' benches, on larger sized (big!) benches several people could be working away and not all of them would have the luxury of working over a leg for chopping, having several people planing on one bench would need something with a fair bit of weight to stop movement as well. And lets not forget that obtaining large lumps of tree for the bench tops was probably easier back in roubos day



Good points, all.

I'm 5' 7" approx, and ought to be 101/2 stone, tops (need to lose about a stone presently :-( ). I can't lift and don't need anything heavier than half the mass of C. S'. bench. Ideally, the more mass the better, but my compromise will be quite a lot lighter!

E.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Apr 2013)

I suspect that in bygone years the stresses and strains on a bench were much higher than they are now - we've tools and machines to do the heavy work. If you're putting that big a strain on your bench, there's probably an easier way of doing the job!


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## GazPal (9 Apr 2013)

The obvious choice if a bench lacks mass is to bolt it down and the top - if thin - could have a ladder rack framework (Lateral braces fixed to longitudinal stretchers) fixed to it's underside.


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## Eric The Viking (9 Apr 2013)

That's exactly how mine is: 3/8" ply on top, 1 1/4" chipboard (IIRC), 3x2 bracing lengthwise, sitting on the rails at either end. The front edge is 4x4 hardwood, approx., for top and front clamping, with thick hardwood lippings on the other three sides, allowing top clamping on them. Works a treat.

E.


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## GazPal (9 Apr 2013)

Eric The Viking":11p4y9ut said:


> That's exactly how mine is: 3/8" ply on top, 1 1/4" chipboard (IIRC), 3x2 bracing lengthwise, sitting on the rails at either end. The front edge is 4x4 hardwood, approx., for top and front clamping, with thick hardwood lippings on the other three sides, allowing top clamping on them. Works a treat.
> 
> E.



Nice one E.  

------------

I think many seem to lose sight of the fact a bench needs to function as a workhorse first and foremost and shouldn't be coddled or thought of as a piece of furniture. We each have our own preferences, but at the end of the day it can be in whichever form it's user wants it to be and will be sawn and chopped, battered and bruised throughout it's lifetime, but it's best the bench suffers than it's user. The bench is far far easier to repair. If something about a bench doesn't work, there's no need to put up with the problem, because it can be altered and made to work in the way you want it to. 

A three legged, one eyed, toothless mongrel can be every bit as good as a prize winning pedigree champion.


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## Eric The Viking (9 Apr 2013)

Aye.

A good friend of ours has a greyhound-collie cross as a pet. Sadly you can guess - brains of greyhound. But "Socks" is coming up for thirteen now and she's still got the energy of a much younger dog. Apparently at her last checkup the vet thought the card was wrong. She's a very loyal and friendly dog too - a great pet.


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## GazPal (10 Apr 2013)

Eric The Viking":3iavxfli said:


> Aye.
> 
> A good friend of ours has a greyhound-collie cross as a pet. Sadly you can guess - brains of greyhound. But "Socks" is coming up for thirteen now and she's still got the energy of a much younger dog. Apparently at her last checkup the vet thought the card was wrong. She's a very loyal and friendly dog too - a great pet.




Quality dogs are a blessing to have around.  One of mine is getting on in years, but thinks she's a pup and still runs riot with our younger dogs when we're out for a wander. She sleeps well afterwards. :lol:


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2013)

phil.p":14x4kimz said:


> I suspect that in bygone years the stresses and strains on a bench were much higher than they are now - we've tools and machines to do the heavy work. If you're putting that big a strain on your bench, there's probably an easier way of doing the job!


The inertia of a heavy bench helps when you are planing. 
And if you are hammering; morticing, carving, nailing etc. even more if you do it over a leg, where you get least bounce.
In fact mass is the best argument for using hardwood - strength and surface hardness actually don't matter that much.


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## GazPal (10 Apr 2013)

Jacob":2aj9hrww said:


> phil.p":2aj9hrww said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect that in bygone years the stresses and strains on a bench were much higher than they are now - we've tools and machines to do the heavy work. If you're putting that big a strain on your bench, there's probably an easier way of doing the job!
> ...



Most definitely. It's much the reason I feel like running for the hills if my son-in-law breaks out his workmate when we're doing work on his and my daughter's house, as you find yourself chasing the bloomin thing for miles when it attempts to take off at each plane stroke. Workmates are fine for doing bits and pieces on, but definitely not for sustained hand planing unless you can brace it against something, or are prepared to do a Fred Astaire routine while trying to plane and hold it down simultaneously.


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## bugbear (10 Apr 2013)

Jacob":2i5mgl29 said:


> The inertia of a heavy bench helps when you are planing.
> And if you are hammering; morticing, carving, nailing etc. even more if you do it over a leg, where you get least bounce.
> In fact mass is the best argument for using hardwood - strength and surface hardness actually don't matter that much.



Just to separate stuff out properly, and use real physics:

1) The *weight* of a bench helps stop it sliding across the floor when you plane.
2) The *rigidity* of a bench (frame) helps stop it racking which you plane
3) The *inertia* of a bench (top) helps stop it moving under impacts.

A conventional high mass bench, has all of (1) (2) (3).

It is possible to contrive designs that have some, but not all of (1) (2) (3).

For example, a bench, suitable for planing, might be bolted to the floor (or walls) and have a extensively braced frame. This would only have(2).

A bench with a thin top, but with cupboards full of tools might have (1) and (2) but not (3).

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2013)

bugbear":1lusidp3 said:


> ....
> 
> Just to separate stuff out properly, and use real physics:...


If you were using real physics you would refer to mass not weight. Mass has inertia even when it has no weight e.g. in space. 
Not much woodwork in space but much modern woodwork info often seems to have come from another planet!


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## Eric The Viking (10 Apr 2013)

Er no, weight, not mass in this context. It's about friction with the floor.

But heck, how many angels can we get to dance on the end of a (drawbore) pin?

;-)

E.


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## bugbear (10 Apr 2013)

Jacob":7kaa42th said:


> bugbear":7kaa42th said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



Mass does not stop a bench sliding. Weight does. Earth based workshops are subject to gravity. A high mass workbench under low gravity would slide easily.

BugBear


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2013)

bugbear":zi5hnnz7 said:


> Jacob":zi5hnnz7 said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":zi5hnnz7 said:
> ...


You don't get sliding in zero gravity but you still get inertia.
Would increased mass increase the resistance to 'sliding' (on earth!), in your opinion?


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## Eric The Viking (10 Apr 2013)

(sound effect of man holding a ladder)... "but before I do, Jacob, perhaps it's best if you pass me up that shovel..."

C'm on Jacob, life's too short, surely?


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## GazPal (10 Apr 2013)

Inertia: the resistance an object has to a change in its state of motion


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## No skills (10 Apr 2013)

Meanwhile back in the land where a young chap wanted to build a workbench...


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## Jelly (10 Apr 2013)

No skills":2qfuowbk said:


> Meanwhile back in the land where a young chap wanted to build a workbench...



...A windmill silently turns, tulips delicately bob in the breeze, and a lone figure cycles slowly along with the grassy earthworks of a dyke in the background?*

I'll get my coat!


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## jetsetwilly (5 Jun 2013)

So Sam - how's that bench coming?!

A minor tidy in my garage has turned into a major refit and a new bench is part of it, so this is all v interesting (well, maybe not the mass vs weight part...). I see a Paul Sellers pastiche in my future, but knocked up as quickly as humanly possible, so no wedges until the coach bolts start to give, scrap worktop instead of laminated wood, replaceable aprons out of whatever I've got, no tail or leg or underarm-whatever vices until i need them, dog holes to go in with a drill when and where required, etc.


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## Eric The Viking (5 Jun 2013)

jetsetwilly":1wfgk8qk said:


> So Sam - how's that bench coming?!
> 
> A minor tidy in my garage has turned into a major refit and a new bench is part of it, so this is all v interesting (well, maybe not the mass vs weight part...). I see a Paul Sellers pastiche in my future, but knocked up as quickly as humanly possible, so no wedges until the coach bolts start to give, scrap worktop instead of laminated wood, replaceable aprons out of whatever I've got, no tail or leg or underarm-whatever vices until i need them, dog holes to go in with a drill when and where required, etc.



Don't forget: if you carve a mouse on one leg, you'll get sued!*

You'll be telling us you want to actually use the jolly thing next... 

;-)

E.

*I'm sure they're nicer than that, but I still wouldn't. In my "workshop" they're real, anyway (see avatar).


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