# Holdfasts



## DigitalM (4 Dec 2017)

I bought a couple of Simon James holdfasts in the for sale forum, they're 18mm diameter. Will they work in 20mm dog holes? I've got a 20mm forstner bit and a 19mm spade bit, which would fit in the pillar drill, otherwise I'm at the mercy of a 3/4" auger bit and brace, and trying to work out how to be perfectly vertical with that.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Dec 2017)

If they are 18mm I'd get an 18mm bit - they're not expensive (Wood Beavers are lethal things). There are many ways of getting then vertical, a mirror or an old CD to sight the reflection is a common way, but if you have a drill press just put a hole through a piece of scrap at a perfect right angle and clamp it down to start the hole (you can centre the bit before clamping it down tightly) - you don't need a guide once the hole is started properly. When you're done run a router with a small rounding over cutter around the holes - it'll stop any splitting around the surface.


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## bugbear (5 Dec 2017)

phil.p":217trfl0 said:


> ...but if you have a drill press just put a hole through a piece of scrap at a perfect right angle and clamp it down to start the hole


If you don't have a drill press, you can use your brace and auger to make a hole as square as you're able in a piece of scrap, then plane the face of the scrap until the scrap is perpendicular to the hole (and vice versa, of course).

BugBear


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## AndyT (5 Dec 2017)

The holes don't need to be perfectly vertical to work. Just use the right diameter bit, sight carefully and get them as straight as you can.

If you really want a guide, screw two square cut blocks together to make an internal corner and rest the bit inside the angle.


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## nabs (5 Dec 2017)

I have got the same hold fasts and used a 3/4'' bit with no problems. 

I agree that the holes don't have to be perfect to work - I kept the brace perpendicular by eye when making the holes and needless to say they are not perfectly straight. I also have a bench top that some would say is too thin (40mm) for holdfasts, but they still grip with a single tap from a mallet.


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## matthewwh (5 Dec 2017)

I wouldn't feel very confident about using a spade bit to drill a hole that I'm going to spend years looking at. The holdfasts will function in a 20mm hole, but the majority of bench fittings are designed to work with a 19mm hole, so if you ever want to use them for anything else...?

If you've got one, a freshly touched up 3/4 auger in a brace should do a nice job, ideally you want a small chamfer / countersink on them too to transfer the load point just below the surface and stop the edges of the holes chipping as you use them. 

These are the bits that we recommend with them https://www.workshopheaven.com/star-m-japanese-f-type-bit-singles.html, not the cheapest in the world, but they do a superb job.


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## memzey (5 Dec 2017)

I second that. When I bought my holdfasts from Matt I got one of those auger bits with them and it worked a treat.


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## bugbear (5 Dec 2017)

The Jennings bit here would work a treat.

post118866.html?hilit=cleaned,%20polished#p118866

And did!

http://cornishworkshop.blogspot.co.uk/2 ... ebate.html

BugBear


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## DigitalM (5 Dec 2017)

bugbear":39xlw8l1 said:


> The Jennings bit here would work a treat.
> 
> post118866.html?hilit=cleaned,%20polished#p118866
> 
> BugBear



Thx. I'm going to practice with some of the methods mentioned and see if I can get good results with the 3/4 auger + brace.


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## DigitalM (5 Dec 2017)

phil.p":2h3we06x said:


> If they are 18mm I'd get an 18mm bit - they're not expensive (Wood Beavers are lethal things).



What's the story with the Wood Beaver brand Phil mentioned? Can't work out what he means. Are they bad?


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## NickN (5 Dec 2017)

I think 'lethal' as in, will get aggressively through just about anything! Very decent bits they are, tried but don't own any.


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## DigitalM (5 Dec 2017)

Ah, I see. They seem to be aimed at tradesmen for quickly getting through joists etc. That makes sense.


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## ED65 (5 Dec 2017)

Just wanted to add a bit (sorry for the pun) about spade bits and hole quality. I think to be fair only the edges of dog holes need to look presentable and most people will relieve those or actually put a proper roundover or chamfer on them using a router so plenty of scope for cleaning up a slightly ragged edge if it does occur. But as I posted recently in another thread spade bits are perfectly capable of boring cleanly and leaving a clean entry hole:







Some spade/flat bits do need a tweak or two, and most need sharpening, but they can work well if sharp, the shoulders are even and the spur is central.


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## MikeG. (5 Dec 2017)

I'm with you ED65. I think spade bits are fantastic, and they can cut clean as a whistle. The ability to start them precisely where you want is their huge advantage over Forstner bits, and a few seconds with a file is enough to restore their edge, or adjust their diameter to precisely what you want.


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## DigitalM (5 Dec 2017)

MikeG.":3ngpteii said:


> I'm with you ED65. I think spade bits are fantastic, and they can cut clean as a whistle. The ability to start them precisely where you want is their huge advantage over Forstner bits, and a few seconds with a file is enough to restore their edge, or adjust their diameter to precisely what you want.



Hmm, I've got a 19mm spade and some offcuts of what I was cutting into. I think last time I used a spade but my RPM was way too high and I started cooking... I bet they perform better at sensible speeds.


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## Ttrees (5 Dec 2017)

Spade bits work really cleanly cutting backwards, if you ever decide you need a particular sized square bottomed hole.
Its very easy to file square the bottom end, and duplicate the two cutting bevels.
Some bits may require filing off the hex edges till round...better to look for round shanked spade bits.


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## MikeG. (5 Dec 2017)

DigitalM":2dijq4k4 said:


> MikeG.":2dijq4k4 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with you ED65. I think spade bits are fantastic, and they can cut clean as a whistle. The ability to start them precisely where you want is their huge advantage over Forstner bits, and a few seconds with a file is enough to restore their edge, or adjust their diameter to precisely what you want.
> ...



Take a file to it, and you'll surprise yourself at how good they can be. You just file a flat but tilted cutting edge, tiffle up the sides of the point occasionally, and as the sides can act as a cutting edge too, a couple of passes with a flat file will cheer them up a bit.


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## custard (5 Dec 2017)

MikeG.":1fb5gk7b said:


> DigitalM":1fb5gk7b said:
> 
> 
> > last time I used a spade but my RPM was way too high and I started cooking... I bet they perform better at sensible speeds.
> ...



You can tickle away all you like but spade bits are still crepe for deep holes. They're the worst bit for clearing waste, which is why they overheat in all but the shallowest hole.


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## MikeG. (5 Dec 2017)

So I'm outside with a 240V drill and a lump of 6x6 green oak, wanting to drill 50 or 60 twenty mm by 80mm deep holes in preparation for chiseling out half a dozen mortises. You've taken my spade bit off me.........what am I supposed to use?


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## DigitalM (5 Dec 2017)

MikeG.":3aivxrak said:


> So I'm outside with a 240V drill and a lump of 6x6 green oak, wanting to drill 50 or 60 twenty mm by 80mm deep holes in preparation for chiseling out half a dozen mortises. You've taken my spade bit off me.........what am I supposed to use?



Come on in and have a nice cup of tea.


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## ColeyS1 (5 Dec 2017)

MikeG.":gm6ke9j0 said:


> So I'm outside with a 240V drill and a lump of 6x6 green oak, wanting to drill 50 or 60 twenty mm by 80mm deep holes in preparation for chiseling out half a dozen mortises. You've taken my spade bit off me.........what am I supposed to use?


An auger bit ?

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## MikeG. (5 Dec 2017)

You can't stop them easily at the right depth, and you can't adjust their direction as you can with a spade bit. Besides, they cost a fortune, and so they're not the sort of thing you want to leave on the ground all day.


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## custard (5 Dec 2017)

MikeG.":qt0ne0kk said:


> what am I supposed to use?



In _green_ timber? A soup spoon would do the job.

Seriously, for roughing out mortices there's another shortcoming with spade bits, deep holes are bad enough but _overlapping_ deep holes really aren't their strong point. But hey, your project so you choose the tools.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Dec 2017)

I don't doubt that some spades are better than others, but I must admit that any that happen to come my way get thrown away. Horrible things.


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## D_W (5 Dec 2017)

ED65":qk7pvpxo said:


> Just wanted to add a bit (sorry for the pun) about spade bits and hole quality. I think to be fair only the edges of dog holes need to look presentable and most people will relieve those or actually put a proper roundover or chamfer on them using a router so plenty of scope for cleaning up a slightly ragged edge if it does occur. But as I posted recently in another thread spade bits are perfectly capable of boring cleanly and leaving a clean entry hole:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



https://s8.postimg.org/3kwf2jwyd/holes.jpg

I cut all of the holes on my bench with spade bits. I had two square references so that I could look at the bit while drilling and then look from an angle approximately 90 degrees different. 

I haven't had an issue with any of the holes. 

I like to work by hand as much as the next guy (probably more), but drilling these holes in hardwood with a brace and bit is not something you'll do in half an hour, and you'll be lucky if you can move your arm the next day. A hand auger would be better, but I haven't seen any of those in 3/4th inch (they're probably easy to find, I haven't looked. Augers are common where I grew up for decoration, and most are probably leftovers from guys who built post and beam barns). 

Spade bit and a holeshooter made this part of the bench building process very fast. I *hate* a perfect looking bench that is supposed to stay that way. I also would hate to spend that much time building one. I think I totaled 30 hours on mine including installing everything, getting it upright and planing it flat. It felt good to have something that you can just slap together, and it feels just as good to not think of it as a jewel.


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## ColeyS1 (5 Dec 2017)

MikeG.":2bn448xd said:


> You can't stop them easily at the right depth, and you can't adjust their direction as you can with a spade bit. Besides, they cost a fortune, and so they're not the sort of thing you want to leave on the ground all day.


Stopping them the right depth is easy. Drill a hole in the end of a piece of 2x2. Slide it over the auger, then mark how much of the auger you need to stick out. Cut off the 2x2 and that's your depth stop.
The adjusting the direction with the spade bit you mention is another reason I'd probably choose a drill bit that's parallel all the way down its length - Like a lip and spur or an auger bit. If the augers gone through, then a straight holdfast should have no problem following the same path. If the spade or forstener bit wondered a little here and there, you might find the holdfast doesn't fit in the hole smoothly.
Obviously in the grand scheme of things none of this really matters. What ever you've got that'll make a hole would probably be fine. I used a 3/4 router cutter for mine. I routed a 3/4 groove on the face of a 9x2, then stuck another 9x2 to it. This leads to the next discussion, why wouldn't you want a square hole instead !!! Lol
Cheers 
Coley

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## D_W (5 Dec 2017)

I probably have 30 holes in my bench. I'm not sure. I put a lot in it because I don't like to come back and put more in later, and it's convenient. I think of all of them, I may have had a snug fit for a full length 3/4 hole dog in one. 

I wouldn't try a forstner freehand, too much heat. With two visual references, it was really easy to drill very close to perfect holes.

If you want to see a real mess, the underside of my holes are counterbored with a slightly wider bit, after the holes were drilled all the way through. THAT was a mess (but it doesn't have to be neat). 

I tried scuffing a hold fast through 4 1/8 inches of ash, but it was fruitless. Counterboring makes them hold rock solid (the narrow part of the holes is only about 2 inches deep now. If I plane 3/4ths of an inch off of my bench top over the rest of my lifetime, it will be a surprise. 

Not saying everyone else should do it the way I did it, but I have two dandy sets of augers, and in drilling the waste out of the mortises for the legs, I'd had enough just doing that. It was torturous, and I generally like the physical part.


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## swagman (6 Dec 2017)

I recently ordered a 3 piece set of Wood Owl Smooth Tri-Cut Auger Bits from the USA. The 3/4" bit and was used yesterday with a Cordless Drill to bore out some Holdfast holes on a new work bench. The exit side of the holes were as neat as the entry side. Nil blow-out. https://www.taytools.com/drilling-borin ... auger-bit/


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## D_W (6 Dec 2017)

Kind of an expensive way to avoid blowout that nobody will see.


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## swagman (6 Dec 2017)

D_W":xfvnz5we said:


> Kind of an expensive way to avoid blowout that nobody will see.



David; you have already covered the difference in approach;


> Not saying everyone else should do it the way I did it,



I just chose not to accept the standard you work too.


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## D_W (6 Dec 2017)

swagman":3ieaxaml said:


> I just chose not to accept the standard you work too.



the insinuation there is funny. I choose to apply a higher standard when i'm not drilling holes in a bench. Applying the same standard there, on something out of view is ...well, it's for a pensioner who has no need for discretion or judgement.


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## ColeyS1 (6 Dec 2017)

I guess it'll also depend on the thickness you're drilling. My bench skirt was ex 9 inch so having a wobbly hole in that would have meant a tight holdfast. If your bench is only a couple Inchs thick, a bit of wibble wobble won't be noticed as much. 

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## ColeyS1 (6 Dec 2017)

DW I don't think swagman was being rude.
Years ago I made a batch of fitted office furniture. Even though one of the cupboards was gonna be permanently fixed to a wall, the client was a little upset that the back of the cupboard didn't look as finished as the front. It's never seen (unless he unscrews it from the wall) but it still niggled him. 
Personally I think I'd try and avoid the blowout, perhaps clamping a sacrificial piece of wood underneath first. Each to their own.

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## swagman (6 Dec 2017)

> perhaps clamping a sacrificial piece of wood underneath first;



That's considered best practice to eliminate blow-out on the exit side of the hole.


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## bugbear (6 Dec 2017)

D_W":1xu8s6fv said:


> Kind of an expensive way to avoid blowout that nobody will see.


The bits can probably be re-used for other tasks.  

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Dec 2017)

There's another way to avoid blow-out when drilling with a hand brace and auger. 

Drill until well through the piece, then stop and feel underneath for the nose of the auger poking through. If not felt, drill another turn or two, and feel again. As soon as the nose is felt, withdraw the auger, turn the piece over, insert the nose into the small witness hole, and finish the hole from the other side; the spur will score the grain as it did on the face side and thus prevent break-out.

You only want a tiny witness hole, not a huge gulf, so start feeling for nose early. Large witness holes don't guide the bit very accurately, so misalignment of that part of the hole drilled from the back of the piece can happen. Sometimes that matters; sometimes not so much.

This will work with cordless or electric drills too - just be careful with your trigger finger when feeling for the nose!


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Dec 2017)

It's quite a good idea to do your holes before you fix the top down for that reason.


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## D_W (6 Dec 2017)

bugbear":6jo9m9cp said:


> D_W":6jo9m9cp said:
> 
> 
> > Kind of an expensive way to avoid blowout that nobody will see.
> ...



Infrequently, though, unless you're doing architectural work (they do look like they'd be mighty useful for that). Most of the other places I'd drill deep holes are covered already by brace and bit or spoon bits. 

There's quite a lot of this perfection on unseen parts going on in hobby woodworking. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but hobby woodworking isn't really great sense in itself, so I yield on that. I'd say making planes has been a waste of time, but it's yielded more progression for me in hand eye than anything else. 

when I cut the dog holes in my bench, I saw one thread after the other about starting with a router, sinking holes, etc, but at some point, you just want to have the bench and not spend 100+ hours building one. I spent 30 on mine working from rough lumber. I wanted the bench, not holes below that I could show someone at a party and boast about. In several years, this is the first I've even thought about it again. 

Friend of mine (who is also a woodworker, but who asks me to make hand-eye-ish stuff for him sometimes, like turned elements, etc) is horrified by the idea that I drilled the holes with nothing more than spoon bits and some visual guides. When I make the bench filthy wiht metal work and then scrape it off to do woodworking and it's still a little dirty, I appreciate the lack of wasted time making it, and the freedom of not treating it like it's a jewelry box or something.


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## bugbear (6 Dec 2017)

D_W":o435dv68 said:


> ... but hobby woodworking isn't really great sense in itself.


That's a statement which I'll politely call "baffling". What on earth definition of "hobby" do have have in mind to say that?

BugBear


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## D_W (6 Dec 2017)

bugbear":2d09yw2q said:


> D_W":2d09yw2q said:
> 
> 
> > ... but hobby woodworking isn't really great sense in itself.
> ...



Sense in terms of fiscal sense and use of time. 

I've never had anyone come to my house and look at anything that I've made and see more value in it than purchased furniture. My wife and I don't have crafty friends (they're doctors, product developers, etc, that part of their brain isn't turned on), so buying antique furniture and refinishing it would make far more sense than making case work, etc. 

It does bring up the interesting dynamic, though, which is the forum opinion in general on items that are a waste of time and money. When we're doing this as a hobby, I suppose that's really what we're doing - Wasting time and money - because we like to. I like to waste my time making things on the bench, and not the bench itself. I'm always awe struck when I see a bench several years old that has the top completely sealed with some kind of film finish and looks like it hasn't had work done on it. I have a friend who is like this. You can't really do anything at his bench, you have to get something to put under your work so that you don't mark his bench, etc. and you ultimately give up.


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## DigitalM (6 Dec 2017)

D_W":2s71jbfm said:


> bugbear":2s71jbfm said:
> 
> 
> > D_W":2s71jbfm said:
> ...



Somewhat baffled by this one myself.

I'm a "hobby" woodworker. My Dad was too, and I've inherited his gene for just wanting to make stuff to the best of my ability. Most people on this forum probably wouldn't rate anything I make, despite my being the best DIY dad of everyone I know.

I just love it, and wish I could do more of it. I get immense satisfaction out of the half-pineappled things I produce, and friends look upon them in total wonder, because they don't know any better!


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## D_W (6 Dec 2017)

DigitalM":wwjxlw69 said:


> Somewhat baffled by this one myself.
> 
> I'm a "hobby" woodworker. My Dad was too, and I've inherited his gene for just wanting to make stuff to the best of my ability. Most people on this forum probably wouldn't rate anything I make, despite my being the best DIY dad of everyone I know.
> 
> I just love it, and wish I could do more of it. I get immense satisfaction out of the half-pineappled things I produce, and friends look upon them in total wonder, because they don't know any better!



I think you guys are taking what I said and turning it in a different direction. What I meant was that you can't necessarily say you do something as a hobby woodworker and say it's reasonable and something else isn't, because we're not hobby woodworking for "reasonable" or economic reasons. 

I don't make anything notable, either - it's not the bar that we're trying to get over, it's that it costs us economically to participate in this hobby in the first place, but we do it nonetheless. My bar when the bench isn't the end, but a means to it, is to not spend $50 making the holes on the underside (which should never contact anything in the first place) neat, and then having another set of bits that I don't need anywhere else floating around in my drill or bit drawers. I have seen benches that are practically furniture themselves. 

I called Stewie out because he has a habit of casting aspersions at other peoples' work on grounds that make no sense. Who in the world would make a comment about not "working down to someone else's standard" regarding the bottom side of bench holes. Stewie has a history of casting stones at =:
* some of my comments, though not as often as:
* Derek's comments, even when Derek refuses to engage him, and despite Derek's more than fair treatment in return
* anything from lee valley, and perhaps that has something to do with derek reviewing a lot of their tools
* many of the boutique makers who make a living making their tools (I make tools to a reasonable standard, but never sell them for a profit, so I'm not in that group, but casting stones at guys making $300 saws while you're collecting a pension is in bad taste. )

I was just noting that while I'd call it reasonable practice to not waste too much time or money on the bottom holes of a bench, certainly one could conclude that the whole hobby is a waste of money. It's all on a sliding scale, and we're not exactly arguing about funding our retirements.


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## DigitalM (6 Dec 2017)

D_W":3bcht4eo said:


> I think you guys are taking what I said and turning it in a different direction.



Sorry, didn't mean to, just started blabbering on about my own experience. No offence intended.


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## memzey (6 Dec 2017)

DigitalM":w91418rm said:


> D_W":w91418rm said:
> 
> 
> > Sense in terms of fiscal sense and use of time.
> ...


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## bugbear (6 Dec 2017)

I think the confusion arises because it's _possible_ to do wood working for a living, so there's a temptation to take the practises and priorities of that and apply them to the hobby, especially when "professional" is wrongly taken as a synonym for "good".

Nobody talks about "reasonable" or "sensible" practices in model engineering - it's not hard to work out that spending 4000 hours to make a 1/12 scale model bicycle, with every roller chain link present and correct is just done _because you want to_, the same reason that someone might give for wanting the underside of their bench to be neat.

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Dec 2017)

A professional is someone who does something for a living - it doesn't necessarily mean they do it well for a living. I must have spent thousands of hours of my working life trying to put right things that were done by "professionals".


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## D_W (6 Dec 2017)

bugbear":3m7nl9qe said:


> I think the confusion arises because it's _possible_ to do wood working for a living, so there's a temptation to take the practises and priorities of that and apply them to the hobby, especially when "professional" is wrongly taken as a synonym for "good".
> 
> Nobody talks about "reasonable" or "sensible" practices in model engineering - it's not hard to work out that spending 4000 hours to make a 1/12 scale model bicycle, with every roller chain link present and correct is just done _because you want to_, the same reason that someone might give for wanting the underside of their bench to be neat.
> 
> BugBear



In that case, I would say "what does their bench look like?" If they apply the studley chest standard to the bench, I'd say they're a bit nutty, but if they feel the same way about the bench as they do about the bike, then by all means.

In this case, my view of a bench is something that's 
* flat, that:
* can be flattened again
* that I can put a mark in and not really mind
* that is stiff enough that it won't move front to back or side to side (in my case, resawing boards with a frame saw puts the most stress on it, but it handles that fine). 
* cheap, relatively. I guess you could build a bench for less than the $850 or so that i totaled with two vises - especially if you had access to salvage hardwood lumber
* that has no glue in the joints, and that can be taken apart pretty easily

I could build something really neat on top of it and not be offended that the caps are attached with lags (they are), or that the legs are laminated from 8x stock of three thicknesses (they are). The friend of mine with the neat bench can't really tolerate much of any of that. He prefers to keep his bench neat and clean by covering it and using it only as an assembly table. After he got his shop the way he wanted it, he ran out of steam. 

I built my bench in 2 weeks, and my router table (at the time) in a day, so it felt like a warmup. 

We're all wired differently. 

My mother is a professional, she paints stuff and it sells. Her setup is extremely spartan, and she tends to be very stingy on materials other than decent brushes. I'd guess that she's made about 3/4ths of a million dollars over 30 years. If I tried to sell her on making a neater work space, she'd smile and give me the finger. Literally. Her painting table is something that she pulled out of salvage.


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## D_W (6 Dec 2017)

DigitalM":35rkrct7 said:


> D_W":35rkrct7 said:
> 
> 
> > I think you guys are taking what I said and turning it in a different direction.
> ...



None taken, it's just standard procedure for forums. We say something through our own lens, and it's inevitable that someone will read it through another


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## swagman (7 Dec 2017)

> but casting stones at guys making $300 saws while you're *collecting a pension is in bad taste.*



David; I am not and have never received a government pension. At the time I chose to leave the workforce I was in the privileged position to become a self funded retiree, with the fiscal means to continue that lifestyle.


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## swagman (7 Dec 2017)

> Who in the world would make a comment about not "working down to someone else's standard"



David; another example of you distorting the facts. The following is actually what I wrote;



> I just chose not to accept the standard you work too.


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## ED65 (7 Dec 2017)

With all due respect Stewie, you shouldn't be pointing any fingers at someone else for distorting facts.

Now can we stop slinging mud at each other and talk about holdfast holes again?


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## swagman (8 Dec 2017)

No backing board was required on the underside of the bench. 

















I would recommend you take the time to make up a simple pilot hole jig, and clamp it down securely to the workbench surface before you start boring your holdfast holes. These bits have a tendency to bite hard. As such I wouldn't recommend a high speed drill for this job task.


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

I tried using the pillar drill but it didn't have the torque to get through 6cm of oak, or the bit I was using wasn't the right type.

And so, undaunted (he lied) I proceeded ye olde fashioned way, using a few of the tips from here to bolster my nerves, finally settling on a couple of visual aids + popeye level arm power:







I drilled them all through until I could see the snail then flipped it over and did the other side:






I don't know how well they perform yet, I finished at 5am! Which also explains why I didn't use a router to countersink the rims ... maybe later. Now, sleepy!






Thanks everyone. Hopefully I've got enough clearance for the holdfasts, or some gruelling hacksawing awaits!


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## swagman (8 Dec 2017)

phil.p":2c1g79x0 said:


> A professional is someone who does something for a living - it doesn't necessarily mean they do it well for a living. I must have spent thousands of hours of my working life trying to put right things that were done by "professionals".



A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified professional activity. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform their specific role.


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## Chris152 (8 Dec 2017)

That looks fantastic, DigitalM. Does it attach to another bench for specific purposes? (I'm looking at the clamps holding it in place.)


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## bugbear (8 Dec 2017)

DigitalM":125bqy9y said:


> I tried using the pillar drill but it didn't have the torque to get through 6cm of oak, or the bit I was using wasn't the right type.
> 
> And so, undaunted (he lied) I proceeded ye olde fashioned way, using a few of the tips from here to bolster my nerves, finally settling on a couple of visual aids + popeye level arm power:



Ah - that's too small a swing for 3/4" in hardwood. The answer (as always) is more tools - buy a bigger brace!

BugBear


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## ED65 (8 Dec 2017)

DigitalM":1edis10d said:


> Hopefully I've got enough clearance for the holdfasts, or some gruelling hacksawing awaits!


Hopefully not! 

Well done on the holes, that's the classic hand-tool approach as given by Hayward and many earlier writers before him.

BTW given it's oak you were drilling through you might want to give the bit a tickle with a needle file to touch it up. Little and often in the key with augers to help maintain their geometry.




bugbear":1edis10d said:


> Ah - that's too small a swing for 3/4" in hardwood. The answer (as always) is more tools - buy a bigger brace!


Yes! Neander like more tool!

Serious point though, I wouldn't want to do this with less than a 10" sweep given the choice.


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## AndyT (8 Dec 2017)

I agree about the size of the brace - yours is perhaps 8" swing? 

From experience, the small increase in size by going up one step makes a big difference. 

I'm trying to quantify the effect of swapping sizes. I can visualise the brace as a lever, pivoting about the centre of the bit. So going from 8" to 10" would only add 25% of [something] though going from 8 to 16 would add 100%, ie double it. Is that mathematically right? Is there a term for that number - advantage? I realise one cutting edge is behind the fulcrum and one beyond it, so assume they cancel each other out and that complication can be ignored.


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

Chris152":1of3xeij said:


> That looks fantastic, DigitalM. Does it attach to another bench for specific purposes? (I'm looking at the clamps holding it in place.)


It's the one I use in the kitchen. I've got a small workshop on a family members property about 10 to 15min drive away, but with this wee workbench on my (sturdy!) kitchen table, I'm hoping to be able to finish projects off at home, or even do some hand tool only stuff, which is where my interest is slowly drifting toward.

I had a thread open on "small portable worktop workbench" or similar title, and loads of people chipped in with ideas along with designs from around the web (including a very interesting one by Derek on this forum, that I didn't see until after I'd started this one or I may have made one similar to that!). There was also a great one called the "Milkman's Workbench" which I may make in the future too. It was a bewildering response to be honest, I was amazed at how many options there were.

This one is after a design by Steve Latta that was published in "Fine Woodworking". A guy on facebook told me that he did a class with Steve making one of these, and the original design featured a moxon, but they didn't include that in order to make it a simpler project. I think I'll add that, and also a variation of the bench plane stop used on Derek's worktop workbench. I'm sure you could continue adding stuff, but I'd best leave it there or it will end up looking like Homer's car (they decided that Homer was the "average Joe" and therefore an ideal candidate to design a car for people like him - he just added everything he could think of to it):


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

bugbear":8eli96os said:


> Ah - that's too small a swing for 3/4" in hardwood. The answer (as always) is more tools - buy a bigger brace!
> 
> BugBear



You may as well say "Buy a bigger house!" but yeah, I get your point. This isn't the titchy, "narrow throw" one, this is the regular sized brace I see around every car boot sale. Is there a version with a really wide arc throw?! To be honest, I could have done with a two-person version, I was suffering arm pump after about 30 mintues.


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## bugbear (8 Dec 2017)

Can you measure the marked distance ?






I suspect it's 4", but 5" and 6" are also candidates.

In a brace this distance is called the "swing", and is the radius
of the circle the handle makes in use. The diameter of this circle
is called the "sweep" of the brace, and is the number
normally quoted. Thus, a "10 inch brace" would more properly 
be a "10 inch sweep brace", with a swing of 5 inches. I've asked
you to measure the swing of your brace. 

BugBear


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

ED65":10wsu4j7 said:


> BTW given it's oak you were drilling through you might want to give the bit a tickle with a needle file to touch it up. Little and often in the key with augers to help maintain their geometry.



After recent discussion, where the balance seemed to be that the specific auger bit files were handy, worked, and above all safer in the hands of an silly person noob (cough), I invested in one, watched a dozen YouToob videos and fettled me bits (!!). They're nice and sharp. The problem I had was the oak getting fouled in the snail threads, which would then stop it being pulled into fresh wood. For every hole I had to back out a couple of times and clear it off. I tried waxing it (the snail that is!!) but that didn't really help much. I believe there are fine and course threads, fine for hardwood - maybe mine are course and that's the issue? It was like 4am when I was doing this so I just pushed on, but it would be good to know if there are ways to minimise this.



ED65":10wsu4j7 said:


> Serious point though, I wouldn't want to do this with less than a 10" sweep given the choice.



Oh dear God, OK, will add that to the car boot snoofling lookout/wish list. But yeah, I'm no "97lb weakling", but it got my biceps pumping!


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Dec 2017)

I gave one away not long ago .............. :lol:


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

bugbear":37cbnvor said:


> Can you measure the marked distance ?
> 
> 
> I suspect it's 4", but 5" and 6" are also candidates.
> ...



OK, it turns out that:

 You're all correct
 I have a titchy brace
 It was so late I was hallucinating
 I've only got myself to blame for how my arm feels this morning!

Yes, it's a 4" swing [cough].

Well, on the plus side, I can buy something and make auger bit work less "bracing".

Thanks for all the tips everyone, chatting away on UKW produces so much more interesting and useful information quicker and more to the point than 10x as much googling (which I also do, and youtubing, and reading old books, and magazine, and blogs...)


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

phil.p":2o6gwotb said:


> I gave one away not long ago .............. :lol:



Have you got any tools left Phil!


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Dec 2017)

About three times as many as I'll ever need - about 10 times in the case of chisels, although I did get rid of about 150.


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

phil.p":123wb8st said:


> About three times as many as I'll ever need - about 10 times in the case of chisels, although I did get rid of about 150.



PM me if you have any skews or dovetailing specific extras to sell. That's going to be my focus for a while early next year. I've pretty much got my basic marples set together now.


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## MusicMan (8 Dec 2017)

AndyT":3t1uhwtc said:


> I agree about the size of the brace - yours is perhaps 8" swing?
> 
> From experience, the small increase in size by going up one step makes a big difference.
> 
> I'm trying to quantify the effect of swapping sizes. I can visualise the brace as a lever, pivoting about the centre of the bit. So going from 8" to 10" would only add 25% of [something] though going from 8 to 16 would add 100%, ie double it. Is that mathematically right? Is there a term for that number - advantage? I realise one cutting edge is behind the fulcrum and one beyond it, so assume they cancel each other out and that complication can be ignored.



Your'e right, Andy. It's called mechanical advantage (the advantage over holding the drill bit itself!). A clear way of thinking about it is that the torque=force times distance from the fulcrum, so indeed you get 25% more torque going from 4" to 5" radius.

The cutting edges don't affect the torque itself. The force on the cutting edges = torque divided by distance of cutting edge from the fulcrum. So the forces don't cancel out, rather they increase as the size of the bit increases, and they are the same on both edges. 

Keith


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## ED65 (8 Dec 2017)

DigitalM":30iqd09r said:


> The problem I had was the oak getting fouled in the snail threads, which would then stop it being pulled into fresh wood.


Ah yes, this is the commonest cause of augers stopping drilling well (or at all) according to something I was reading literally only yesterday!



DigitalM":30iqd09r said:


> I believe there are fine and course threads, fine for hardwood - maybe mine are course and that's the issue?


Yes, and possibly yes. TBH this may be par for the course though. Imagine if you were using a finer-threaded lead screw and it was clogging _more_ :shock: 

I know you fettled the auger, but I presumed that was confined to the four cutting edges. What's the condition of the lead screw's thread like? If it/they aren't 100% it can directly lead to problems because there isn't an uninterrupted channel for the dust/swarf to travel along.


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

ED65":5xw7m0si said:


> I know you fettled the auger, but I presumed that was confined to the four cutting edges. What's the condition of the lead screw's thread like? If it/they aren't 100% it can directly lead to problems because there isn't an uninterrupted channel for the dust/swarf to travel along.



I didn't do the trick that I've seen of driving the screw into some wood with some cutting compound. I could try that. The screw is uninterrupted and deep - visually I think it's fine. I bought three at once, all Ridgway 240 series. 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4. The 1/2 has an obvious problem where a former owner filed into the screw breaking the channel significantly, which is largely why I decided to invest in the dedicated file for this purpose. I'm not bothered though as the total for the three was around £7 and I know now exactly what to look for having looked into these a bit more.

Maybe it's the block nature of the wood I'm drilling into. It may have been glued under pressure to form a tight block or something, and be full of glue.


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## bugbear (8 Dec 2017)

The Good News is that 8" is my favourite brace size for driving/extracting screws.  

BugBear


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## DigitalM (8 Dec 2017)

Hahahaha, no need to take a hacksaw to the holdfasts, look upon my ingenuity and weep, mere mortals!






Scorched the holes a bit, but you know, it's not supposed to be fine furniture. Still, it's all practice. I guess it's just heat built up in the bit. My Elu only does 1/2 and 3/8, maybe a 1/2" cutter would have acted more like a heat sink, or I should have just taken more time and progressive cuts.


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## MusicMan (9 Dec 2017)

DigitalM said:


> Hahahaha, no need to take a hacksaw to the holdfasts, look upon my ingenuity and weep, mere mortals!
> 
> View attachment 27137171829
> 
> ...


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