# Tormek vs Veritas MkII Power Sharpening System



## RogerS (10 Sep 2006)

Reading through the threads my conclusions are:

Tormek - pros - lots of add-on guides to suit different tools
water cooled - minimise overheating

cons - produces a hollow on the blade as the wheel is round

Veritas - pros - does not produce a hollow on the blade
uses the MkII sharpening guide - well reviewed
easier (?) to sharpen non-flat blades such as gouges?

cons - not water cooled 
not available in the UK?

I would welcome any views if this is a fair summary and any suggestions or recommendations. If it helps, I take a 'pragmatic' approach to sharpening :wink:


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## jasonB (10 Sep 2006)

I biught my Tormek for the specific task of sharpening gouges which it does extreamly well. I have the 10" wheel and the concave grind is almost unnoticable.

As the Veritas is quite small I wounder if the part of the blade towards the center of the disc will be slower to sharpen than that at the outside less feet per minute of abrasive. You also don't get the leather honing disc. 

Jason


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## engineer one (10 Sep 2006)

roger, as a regular user of the tormek for sharpening, i would say that 
the curve is a bit of a red herring.

for personal use, i take a new, or old chisel and clean the back on the 
side of the wheel , then clean up on my diamond or water stones, and finally polish on the leather wheel. seems to work well, and i can after practice, keep the blade level. then i make the edge, remove the burr, and
then set the final bevel on a water or oil stone. just like sorting a 
secondary bevel on a hand held system, you have a bunch of area to work
with till you need to re sharpen.

in my experience the tormek gets you to the starting blocks more
quickly than doing it by hand, and you can then fettle at the end.

i am sure the veritas flat wheel is good. all rob's stuff seems to be 
well thought out and well made/engineered, but having one of the
draper flat wheels i found it a pita to get a decent flat back due to the 
variable speed geometry.

having used the side of the tormek wheel, i am now thinking about
adapting an old B&D one sided grinder with a pto to fit an mdf 
disc so i can use that australian method shown elsewhere here, sorry 
can't provide the link, with abrasive put up vertically, and flat.

paul :wink:


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Sep 2006)

> in my experience the tormek gets you to the starting blocks more
> quickly than doing it by hand, and you can then fettle at the end.



Paul

If all you are really using the Tormek for is to create the primary bevel, then surely there are quicker and cheaper ways to do this. Such as a belt sander (which you know I use).

The Veritas Mk II differs from the Tormek in that it is a complete shapening system. I have been thinking about one as well (although it is expensive), but as far as I know they only come in 110 volts. Perhaps Rob will bring one out for the UK/Oz markets.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Ian Dalziel (10 Sep 2006)

Roger,
I’m probably one of the few in the UK with both these systems……I also use a Jones and shipman for thinning and redoing bevels on blades.

I have only had the Veritas MK11 power sharpener for a few weeks and wow I do like it. I got extra platters and grits but so far haven’t had the requirement for them.
The machine runs at 650 rpm, a lot faster than what i thought it would be and can whip the metal off with the course grit. The speed took me by surprise at first but you get used to it very quickly. It excels at flattening the backs of irons and chisels
It comes with a unique blade holding device so I’m not sure it will accept the MK11 jig. Rob could tell you I’m sure. I haven’t actually tried it with it though as the holding device that comes with it is suffice. I so far have only dressed up my old marples chisels and a few scrap plane blades but boy it does it quick. 
The fine grit gives an excellent polish but still early days.

Do I prefer it over the Tormek….initially yes…(early days) as it isn’t as messy and it’s a damn site quicker, If I bring out the Tormek I just know I’m going to be cleaning for ages, and I’ve got a load of water to fill the stone if I haven’t used it for a while.

Just not used the Veritas enough yet but you know what they say about initial impressions. 
I use these systems for rough prepping then move to waterstones for my final finishing.

I use waterstones through the ranges up to 30,000 grit for my Plane blades but these are prohibitively expensive for marginal results.



I


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## RogerS (10 Sep 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> If all you are really using the Tormek for is to create the primary bevel, then surely there are quicker and cheaper ways to do this. Such as a belt sander (which you know I use).



Must confess that that was my thinking...



> The Veritas Mk II differs from the Tormek in that it is a complete sharpening system. I have been thinking about one as well (although it is expensive), but as far as I know they only come in 110 volts. Perhaps Rob will bring one out for the UK/Oz markets.



240>110v transformers aren't _that_ expensive especially as the power rating is quite low although I speak from already having a 3.3kVa transformer in the workshop which has given me considerable freedom in buying stuff :wink:


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## engineer one (10 Sep 2006)

ah but derek i already have one, and so the question is moot.

if i was starting again, i think until i have tried and seen the veritas
machine, i would still plump for the tormek. although like you i love
the idea of the mdf disc trick.

rather like extraction, we all tend to look at this in a different way.
if you are re-starting woodwork then you may well have a number of
tools that need fettling when you start. in my mind given that we
are all keen to actually cut wood very quickly, the tormek offers
many benefits over other methods like oil or waterstones. not least
the actual learning curve is less sharp, and from my experience you 
can get working chisel and plane blades very quickly.

for the beginner, i think the biggest problem is the time you have
to spend re-flattening your water stones is a bit of a problem, not
least in that unless or until you go on a course, you tend to assume
they will stay flatter longer.

although distances her in the uk are less than in oz, not everybody
can either afford, or get to a decent sharpening course. which 
means they have to rely on us, or reading dc, but as i just learnt 
yesterday at philly's something you assume because that is what 
you think that you read, may not be what you actually need to do.

the plethora of sharpening methods are symptomatic i think,
of two things. one we are all looking for something better, and
also cheaper and two something simpler, but what actually happens
is that we all add things to what we are doing, because we 
hope to find the best solution, and there ain't one. :twisted: 

having got the tormek then i will stick with it, until a it breaks, and 
be something better/cheaper comes along :lol: 


paul :wink:


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## RogerS (10 Sep 2006)

Ian Dalziel":3gsn33wg said:


> It comes with a unique blade holding device so I’m not sure it will accept the MK11 jig. Rob could tell you I’m sure.



Ah, I see what you mean, Ian. I'd taken a quick look at both honing guide and the power sharpener, saw two brass knurled knobs and thought they were the same


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## MikeW (10 Sep 2006)

For the MK.II power sharpener to work with the MK.II honing guide easily, the support bar would need to be able to be positioned level with the platter in use--something I'm uncertain will work.

Also, one wold need to grind/hone on the MK.II PS with the platter turning into the blade, which is fine, but I fear it would pull the MK.II HG off the support bar if one crossed over to the side turning away from the edge. Maybe not.

If it does work, however, it would speed up grinding. One could remove the MK.II HG form the MK.II PS, turn the micro-adjust setting to a degree or two higher and hone on a fine stone. Faster than changing platters...

However, the MK.II HG can work with a Tormek with a bit of fabrication and a spacer block or two for positioning the guide bar a known distance from the wheel. The fabrication part comes in by welding a small piece of angle iron to a second support bar so one side of it comes up on the near side towards the stone.

Then one or more spacer blocks needs to be made. These are used to set the support bar a known distance quickly and repeatedly. A bit of playing around is needed. If I could find my mad experiment I could measure them. But the right thickness needs to be adjusted until it holds the bar away from the stone the proper distance.

To do this, take the MK.II HG with an iron installed at say 30 degrees, the modified support bar positioned so the notch on the MK.II HG's carrier rests on the top part of the angle iron and so the bevel of the iron rests on the stone so the curve of the stone "hits" the middle of the bevel. Tighten down the support bar. Make a spacer to fit that space. The support bar can now be positioned for a 30 degree bevel using the MK.II HG.

One can then remove the whole MK.II HG, turn the micro adjust--or not--and immediately hone on a stone a few licks and you are done. Make as many spacer blocks for the angles you use.

Take care, Mike


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Sep 2006)

> ah but derek i already have one, and so the question is moot.



Paul

Just considering options ...

I view the Tormek and the Veritas Mk II as different concepts. The Tormek is really geared to grinding, and has been geared upward to produced a finished edge. However, this edge is not finished adequately for plane blades, so one resorts to using waterstones, etc. Grinding on the Tormek is safe but very slow. 

The Veritas has been designed to do it all - grind and hone. I have read good reports. It has one draw back - it is expensive. 

My solution is to grind primary bevels on a belt sander and then finish on watestones. My belt sander jig was initially designed for this basic purpose but, if you wish (and I did do this for a while) you can use belts with grits between 80 - 2000 grit. That is equivalent to a 8000 waterstone. There is also a powered "honing plate", which functions in the same way as the recent thread on MDF disks (mine is chamois leather contact glued to a velco-backed sanding disk). The use of Veritas green rouge will produce a hair-popping edge. It is great to rejuvinate an edge between honings. 







Works in the same way as a Tormek.






Regards from Perth

Derek


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## RogerS (10 Sep 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> The Veritas has been designed to do it all - grind and hone. I have read good reports. It has one draw back - it is expensive.



Maybe different down in Oz but my quick back of the envelope calculations show the two to be similarly priced.


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## Nick W (10 Sep 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Grinding on the Tormek is safe but very slow.



Press harder - you won't think it is slow then. :shock:


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## engineer one (10 Sep 2006)

derek, i agree about options.

since at this time i do not plane by hand in the same way as
you do, at this time my planes are sharp enough for me :lol: 
but as i progress down the slope, i am sure that i will
need to consider other options.

my feeling is that the tormek is great for the get go in a safe way,
and especially if you turn then it offers a wonderful edge for the
turning tools, but as an engineer one always worries about that
moment of stupidity, when one overheats the edge, and
then has to remember the long past and re-heat treat.

your belt sander idea is really good too, but like you i am drawn 
to this mdf/leather strop idea

thanks

good luck with the hunt roger

paul :wink: 

ps mike w i touched one of your saws at philly's my wallet is
already groaning at the thought  :? :twisted: :lol:


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## Ian Dalziel (10 Sep 2006)

> ps mike w i touched one of your saws at philly's my wallet is
> already groaning at the thought



oh dear... the slope didnt take long after the meet......watch out or it'll be the Holteys next :lol: 

Nick...I still find my Tormek slow and messy no matter how much pressure i put on it...I also find it very easy to mess up my edge by thinking i have it square in the jig then once i've sharpened and check it its off. I have also had replacement bushes off martins dad just in case they were worn. 
I get agitated at something i cant get right and for some reason the tormek i just dont get on with. it also glazed trying to sharpen my D2 blades hence i got something else. I had martins dad try them at a show and he had the same problem.

I've only used the Veritas a couple of times and already i noticed it is an improvement. and its not quite so messy :lol: 


ohhh i hate mess.... :roll: 

I


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## Alf (10 Sep 2006)

engineer one":18uxupe5 said:


> ps mike w i touched one of your saws at philly's my wallet is already groaning at the thought  :? :twisted: :lol:


Alas yes; one touch and my hand was in heaven and my soul was damned to a hell of forever saving for "just one more"... ](*,) :lol: Beautiful.

But where were we? Ah yeah, sharpening. Just to side-track a litle, I notice Rutlands (all right, don't groan; if someone else has 'em, speak up) is stocking these Norton 3X grinding wheels. S'posed to be cool and good with the evil A2. Anyone tried one? 100 grit's a bit fine for me, but I'm willing to be persuaded... (this is a subtle way of casting a vote for an ordinary old bench grinder, btw. In case it was too subtle...)

Cheers, Alf


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## DaveL (10 Sep 2006)

Well those wheels look OK, in the blurb:- 


Rutlands Web site":2u1zurct said:


> these ceramic wheels are available in two grits 80g and 100g


But then they only list the 100g for buying, so the 80g could be on its way?


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## Alf (10 Sep 2006)

I reckon more likely Rutlands lifted it lock, stock and barrrel from Norton's blurb. :?


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## Scrit (10 Sep 2006)

Derek

There's a couple of plus points to the Tormek not yet touched on - a wetstone doesn't generate sparks - not a bad idea in a woodworking shop, and secondly the Tormek grinds a better fingernail profile turning gouge than I've ever managed by hand. In any case part of the justification for mine was the ability to sharpen sewing scissors, etc. "in house" without burning them.....

Scrit


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## Nick W (10 Sep 2006)

Ian,

I agree about the problems of getting *and maintaining *blades square in the Tormek, and it is true that there is a bit of water splashing around (against which I stand mine in a shallow plastic tray), but the mess compared with water stones is minimal I would say. However the Veritas MkII (and it took me a while to realise that you weren't talking about the honing jig) looks a lot better - would love the opportunity to try one some time.


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## engineer one (11 Sep 2006)

ian, and nick you are right about getting a straight edge,
but in fact with any holder that has two nuts being tightened
can be easy to set slightly off centre, same flaw in veritas Mk11
guide if you are not careful.

i find that the most useful tool for ensuring square is a very small
engineers square, or one with an adjustable mitre on it. 
(senior moment sorry forgotten what the b****y thing is called).

i tend to bulk clean up and fettle different edges on the tormek,
then finish them off on a stone of some description, be nice though
if we could more easily produce a radius on the tormek!!!!!! :twisted: 

all the best
paul :wink:


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## Ian Dalziel (11 Sep 2006)

Nick W":1m4wdglv said:


> Ian,
> However the Veritas MkII(and it took me a while to realise that you weren't talking about the honing jig)



Too many veritas MK11’s. 

Scrit….I’m not condemning the Tormek and apologies if it comes over this way, I have used one for last 5 years but i still have trouble with square ended tools and blades. I’m reluctant to get rid of it because I have spent a lot of money on all the jigs. I couldn’t overcome its shortcomings so I got the veritas power sharpener.
As I said earlier, I get really agitated if I cant get something right and I couldn’t with the Tormek. I tried using squares etc but I couldn’t get consistency. I got new bushes, new rail etc but I could still grind a blade off square without knowing until it was too late…this for me is unacceptable and time consuming. Other people are more forgiving and will manage the situation to an acceptable level. 

I pay Karl good money for his blades…I don’t want their life shortened because my sharpener cant do them square every time. 

I do like the Tormek for certain things and now I have the new cnc mill I will probably make something that will give me more consistency.

Yes I agree with you on fingernail gouges etc but these don’t have square ends to mess up, I also prefer to leave a slight hook on my turning tools hence I now use the oneway wolverine system for these, I was also shown at my turning course that regular visits to the grinder was more advantageous. I found the Tormek too slow for this. Even going around turning exhibitions I rarely see Tormeks being used by the professionals

But different teachers have different ways of showing pupils, there are many ways of sharpening with none being wrong.

At the end of the day it is how the wood fails.

The title of the subject was Tormek vs Veritas Power sharpener…I just happen to own both systems albeit I have only had the latter for a few weeks but my first impressions are its more suitable to my needs, I have mentioned a few Tormek shortcomings and I will probably mention a few on the veritas once I have had more time on it. time will tell.

Please …I don’t want this to turn into a war of words….i’m still off the cigarettes and will still argue with myself…even Mrs D keeps clear…hope this fiery temper eventually subsides.

I


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## engineer one (11 Sep 2006)

ian, we have put away our flak jackets, now we know the truth, 
it's the ciggies that done it governor :twisted: 

i think it is important that we all appreciate that sharpening is
like the curate's egg, good in parts.

from the diversity of things available, everyone has a better way 
of doing it. in the outback i think it is as much to do with not being 
able to get things quickly, and they have a history of adapting tools
for their own benefit.

here in the uk, along with our american cousins, we tend to have 
too much choice, and want everything at a hurry.

it is a real b*****r when you start or re-start woodworking to 
discover that you have to spend bundles of extra money if you 
use hand tools, to get them sharp enough to use. then you find 
every body has a different route to sharpness, and the confusion 
reigns.

i started with water stones, but found it a long term process, 
was lucky enough to be able to afford a tormek, and found it 
works for me, but then i found that i could improve the edge, 
by using either water stones or Horror :twisted: an oil stone, 
so now i use a combination of things. none are completely perfect, 
and i am sure that even those happy at the beginning with the veritas
may well find it does not answer all the questions all the time.

i think we have to agree again that we all have different needs
from sharpening, and there is no one answer, but getting
entrenched in our views will stop us actually enjoying cutting 
wood and making things.

paul :wink:


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## Ian Dalziel (11 Sep 2006)

Paul, 
6	months off the fags…..4 fights…nearly divorced….arrested twice…..road rage like I’ve never had before….and I’ve fallen out with everyone that’s close to me, Engerland has it all coming when the ban comes in. I am just learning how not to be so confrontational.

Yes I agree with you that neither the Tormek, or the Veritas is the complete system they just make the path easier to get too. 
Most forums have their arguments for sharpening so I’ll keep out before I get into trouble 


wuuusssaaaaa


I


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Sep 2006)

Paul

I am willing to bet money that the moment you believe that you have found sharpening Nirvana you will discover Something Better.  

I find it amazing just how many methods there are, just how passionate everyone gets about this topic, and especially how much debate will rage each time it is raised.

Just to toss another machine into the ring, more for interest than anything, who has experience of the Scangrind? This is about the same price as a Tormek (to my utter surprise since it is not its equal). I bought one at a garage sale about two years ago for about 15 quid. This is what it looked like:







I added a Tormek-like rest (drawer pull, as per my belt sander):






It runs at the same speed as a Tormek, is also a wet grinder, has much the same grit wheel as the Tormek which is also regradable, but has the advantage of forward and reverse movement. 

My experience with it is the same as Ian finds with his Tormek. 

For a change of pace ... I also have a hand grinder. Another failure. It will spin so fast that I can burn blades almost as easily as on my powered bench grinder. Holding the blade with the left hand while I crank with my right does not permit a lot of control... 

Any other alternatives to the Tormek and Veritas?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## RogerS (11 Sep 2006)

Well, there's LapSharp which I discounted as being way, way too expensive.


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## Ian Dalziel (11 Sep 2006)

Roger,
A few opionions here but more related to the lapsharp vs tormek than the mk11.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=26451



I


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## JesseM (11 Sep 2006)

One of the things I have noticed with my MKII is with wide blades there seems to be more material removed on one side than the other. I test this by taking it over to something that is known to be flat and make a few swipes. In A2 it can be quite bear to get it straightened back out. I have been using it only for flattening because of this. For thinner (2" or less I would guess) its fine, or at least not noticeable. 

Another complaint I have is that the bevel depends on the platter height. One of my platters I have has 2 grades of the zirconia abrasive. Well these are thicker than the other abrasives. I have 2 of the 4mm platters which I was gonna use for the rough work, but if you have one with just the zirconias and the other with the thinner stuff then you will different angles.

I have been thinking about buying a variable motor controller so that I can slow it down and then run my MKII honing guide directly on top of the platters.


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## Paul Kierstead (11 Sep 2006)

Ian Dalziel":25be9qmy said:


> Please …I don’t want this to turn into a war of words….i’m still off the cigarettes and will still argue with myself…even Mrs D keeps clear…hope this fiery temper eventually subsides.



Heh, I did it about 3 years ago. Sure glad the g/f was understanding. It does subside and you will notice the cleaner breathing (though it takes quite a while for the lungs to repair and in the interval coughing can actually increase).


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## RogerS (11 Sep 2006)

Excellent link, Ian...even goes into the MkII vs the LapSharp in some detail in later posts


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## John Clifford (12 Sep 2006)

I have both, well sort of. I have the new Jet machine not the Tormek. I like both but they both have their faults. I find it curious that some people think the Tormek is too messy. My Jet is the least messy sharpening system I use (Jet, LV MKII, and water stones). One of the things I like least about the MKII is the mess. It puts fine metal shavings all over the place, including in the air which ends up in my lungs. I know that because after I'm done using it, for the rest of the day when I blow my nose I can see the black stuff on the hankie, not good. I also have a problem getting a square edge. The outside of the platter is moving faster that the inside and thus cuts faster causing an uneven grind. I know you can run the blade partially off the platter to even out the wear and some people suggest alternating your sharpening on both sides of the platter to even out the wear but I've yet to be able to get it just right. Anyway just my thoughts.


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## Martin Brown (12 Sep 2006)

That clears that up then.....


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