# The language is mutating (and always has done)



## rogxwhit (16 Sep 2022)

Table saw, dado, sled, lumber ...

Gotten ...

We seem to be going transatlantic. Doesn't have to be bad, of course, but at the same time can seem like a form of cultural imperialism. What passes the other way? I'm in favour of dialogue, but resistant to unidirectionalism.

There's a mechanism of cultural transmission at work by which such terms become ever more widely adopted and even the norm. I don't feel the need to jump onboard, but it also seems that it's an unstoppable bandwagon.

It makes my moustache bristle. Yes, I said bristle, not brittle. 

And I blame the internet. But I don't suppose that anybody else has noticed, because I've never seen it mentioned ...


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## deema (16 Sep 2022)

How many know that the old timers UK word for uncut raw timber is ‘stuff’ which is also used in the texts. I use it in my threads and nobody has picked up on it, which is a surprise. 

I think table saw is a term in the UK, but is for a saw that is placed on a table……contractors saw type…..where as we used to use cabinet saw for a floor standing saw.

Dado set is I believe the same as the UK, just illegal for professional shops to use I believe.


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## rogxwhit (16 Sep 2022)

deema said:


> Dado set is I believe the same as the UK, just illegal for professional shops to use I believe.


It wasn't 'dado set' (a form of tooling involving stacked blades on a saw bench or a radial) that I was referring to, it was the usage of the term dado to mean a housing or possibly trench? Which was never the terminology over here. 

And generically in the uk, the simplest form of floor-standing circular saw is (or in these days was) a circular sawbench. 

I like the word 'stuff'. When might 'stuff' become 'stock'?


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## thetyreman (16 Sep 2022)

yes the internet has definitely changed language mostly for the worst, many people now use american english and we're loosing some old english words, I hear a lot of people using terms like 'bunch' and 'I guess' at the end of statements, fine in america but it's not a very english way of talking.


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## thetyreman (16 Sep 2022)

this song sums it up


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## JimJay (17 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> yes the internet has definitely changed language mostly for the worst, many people now use american english and we're loosing some old english words, I hear a lot of people using terms like 'bunch' and 'I guess' at the end of statements, fine in america but it's not a very english way of talking.


Doesn't the rest of the UK have a say in that - or is linguistic imperialism okay in some circumstances?


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## JimJay (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Table saw, dado, sled, lumber ...
> 
> Gotten ...
> 
> ...


Other people most certainly have noticed - the English classes I teach have probably lost count of the number of times the topic has been mentioned.... 

I prefer to call it linguistic imperialism: the use of "cultural" here includes a presupposition which is rather debatable.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

English is the best/worst language (depending I suppose upon your viewpoint) in the world for mutating and theft of words, and is better for it.

Two things that irritate, though - changing to U.S pronunciations, although that's inevitable (we speak English English, not world (U.S.) English, and change that actually makes things longer like "for free". Why? What was wrong with "I picked it up free".

Bad grammar is a different matter, such as using overly when the word used should have been over. But I'm being overly ..... sorry, over fussy.


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## Adam W. (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> It wasn't 'dado set' (a form of tooling involving stacked blades on a saw bench or a radial) that I was referring to, it was the usage of the term dado to mean a housing or possibly trench? Which was never the terminology over here.
> 
> And generically in the uk, the simplest form of floor-standing circular saw is (or in these days was) a circular sawbench.
> 
> I like the word 'stuff'. When might 'stuff' become 'stock'?


It took me an age to find out what a dado was, but I still don't know what a dado rail is or if I actually need one.


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## Ozi (17 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> It took me an age to find out what a dado was, but I still don't know what a dado rail is or if I actually need one.


A dado rail is the thing to hang dados on - as they are quite heavy it's best not to put then higher than waist level.


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## Adam W. (17 Sep 2022)

Ozi said:


> A dado rail is the thing to hang dados on - as they are quite heavy it's best not to put then higher than waist level.


Well, if that's the case, I still don't know what a dado is. I always thought it was a plinth under a column or panelling to the lower part of a wall.


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## Myfordman (17 Sep 2022)

Topical new verbs heard on the BBC

To coronate. In relation to royalty

To exumate. In relation to the mass grave discovered in Ukraine


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Exhumate.


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## selectortone (17 Sep 2022)

I recently emailed Cinch, the car buying company, about the ad they are running on TV.

I asked them, if it wasn’t too much trouble, to tell that bearded bloke who does their adverts that in America they say ‘Anyways’ while here in the UK we say ‘Anyway’. I got a very nice reply from Alannah from their Customer Service Team saying “_Thank you very much for your email and for reaching out to cinch. I will pass on your feedback to the marketing team._”

Well, it gave my daughter a laugh


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## J-G (17 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Well, if that's the case, I still don't know what a dado is. I always thought it was a plinth under a column or panelling to the lower part of a wall.


That is very un-like you Adam -- I've always looked upon you as one who does immaculate research  

A Dado Rail tops the Wainscot and was originally intended to ward off furniture causing damage to said Wainscot or the wall itself. Laterly of course it has become a decorative feature or demarcation. 

When I last decorated my hallway I installed a Dado Rail with a vertical stripe wall-paper below (essentially a false Wainscot) and a small print wall-paper above.


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## Adam W. (17 Sep 2022)

I think it's confusing because dado and dado rail seem to mean different things to different people.


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## stuart little (17 Sep 2022)

Brings me back to my pet hate of seeing in print 'co-worker' not hyphenated as 'COWORKER'. James Patterson books especially, but Lee Child books get it right, & those black sticky things that keep wheel rims off the ground he spells with a 'y' not 'i', I expect that's Mr. Child's English roots. I am allowed to say ' rather than ''English'' rather than British aren't I?


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## Sideways (17 Sep 2022)

We're English. Don't we adopt foreign words that we like or find interesting in the same way that we adopt foods ?

I enjoy the good ones but find it irritating when people concoct new words just because they seem to be uneducated / ignorant about the perfectly good ones that we already have.
Anyone remember newscasters using "deplaning". What's wrong with disembark ? Muppets !
Corporate speak is amusing / annoying too in the way that terms become fashionable, overused and lose any impact they might have had. I don't miss that.

If you think that language is mutating, take a look at instant messaging and emojis


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## HamsterJam (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Table saw, dado, sled, lumber ...
> 
> Gotten ...
> 
> ...


#rantmodeon
I have noticed, particularly ”Can I get…” when ordering something and the use of Z instead of S in words ending ‘ise’. I also hear lieutenant being pronounced loo-tenant rather than lef-tenant. And don’t get me started on the modern business trend of verbalising nouns!! 
Soon we’ll have ‘aloominum’, sidewalks, hoods, trunks and fenders to go with the ‘dados’ and ‘rabbits’.
Sadly when I point this out to my kids, they tell me I’m old and stuck in medieval olde english 
#rantmodeoff


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## selectortone (17 Sep 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> I have noticed, particularly ”Can I get…” when ordering something


That one is annoying. Too much American TV methinks.


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## Spectric (17 Sep 2022)

Language is just words but things go wrong when you use words in a way that conflicts with reality. A good example is some of the nonsense now being used like the NHS with " for people who bleed " rather than accept that it is only females that menstruate. You cannot change facts or reality by using different language, how can anyone be gender neutral, ever since we lived in caves there has been boys and girls, go right back to day one we had Adam & Eve so like it or not you are what you are and if you have doubts then look elsewhere for the root cause of the issue, just like cancer ignore it at your peril.


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## Argus (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Table saw, dado, sled, lumber ...
> 
> Gotten ...
> 
> ...



Going back to the starting point,

'Gotten' as an English word, as in 'to receive' or to 'obtain', in fact, as a widely used word, it's far older than the discovery of America.

I believe that the word 'gotten' had a presence in Middle English. Chaucer used something similar, descended probably from the remnants of Anglo-Saxon in colloquial 14th C English and it's been recorded in English usage since the 15th century. The early colonists took it, and other English words, to the States where it remained in currency after it went out of use in the Mother country.

On the subject of what passes the other way nowadays - East-to-West - there is an interesting occasional Blog on the subject of modern-day trans-Atlantic transition of 'normal' English that's worth exploring - it goes way back in time:









(no title)







notoneoffbritishisms.com





They call them 'Noobs', for some reason........ must be an acronym.


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## Spectric (17 Sep 2022)

This anglo american thing is strange, America was populated by many English and scots at the expense of the native indians and we complain about them now exporting the differences back to us, I love american woodworking books as they give some great ideas and things that stimulate the old grey mater into life.


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## Tom K (17 Sep 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> #rantmodeon
> I have noticed, particularly ”Can I get…” when ordering something and the use of Z instead of S in words ending ‘ise’. I also hear lieutenant being pronounced loo-tenant rather than lef-tenant. And don’t get me started on the modern business trend of verbalising nouns!!
> Soon we’ll have ‘aloominum’, sidewalks, hoods, trunks and fenders to go with the ‘dados’ and ‘rabbits’.
> Sadly when I point this out to my kids, they tell me I’m old and stuck in medieval olde english
> #rantmodeoff


Of course you realise Ye is properly pronounced The? My grandchildren like to use words like trash and garbage-can but I told them they were talking rubbish.


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## stuart little (17 Sep 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> #rantmodeon
> I have noticed, particularly ”Can I get…” when ordering something and the use of Z instead of S in words ending ‘ise’. I also hear lieutenant being pronounced loo-tenant rather than lef-tenant. And don’t get me started on the modern business trend of verbalising nouns!!
> Soon we’ll have ‘aloominum’, sidewalks, hoods, trunks and fenders to go with the ‘dados’ and ‘rabbits’.
> Sadly when I point this out to my kids, they tell me I’m old and stuck in medieval olde english
> #rantmodeoff


I sometimes uze a 'zee' instead of an 's' for ease when writing, it's only a back-to-front 's' after al! Isn't 'lieutenant' a French word? Zo, where the heck does an 'f' come from? 'Fraid I use Columbo's pronounciation!  Rabbits?  - RABBETTS


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## niall Y (17 Sep 2022)

The list is endless, but we don't have to adopt them unless we want to. One thing that might help with spelling is the spell-check on this very site. I don't want it to be endlessly pointed out, with a red underlining ,that i am spelling labour, metre, and colour, wrong. When I clearly am not.


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## rogxwhit (17 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I always thought it was a plinth under a column or panelling to the lower part of a wall.


Correct!


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## rogxwhit (17 Sep 2022)

niall Y said:


> The list is endless, but we don't have to adopt them unless we want to.


Of course we don't, but I was just remarking on the prevalence.


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## rogxwhit (17 Sep 2022)

Argus said:


> 'Gotten' as an English word, as in 'to receive' or to 'obtain'? In fact it's far older than the discovery of America.


Yes someone else said that to me, but I never heard the word whilst I was growing up, and it seemed alien when it started reappearing from across the water.


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## rogxwhit (17 Sep 2022)

stuart little said:


> RABBETTS


Rabbets.


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## akirk (17 Sep 2022)

niall Y said:


> The list is endless, but we don't have to adopt them unless we want to. One thing that might help with spelling is the spell-check on this very site. I don't want it to be endlessly pointed out, with a red underlining ,that i am spelling labour, metre, and colour, wrong. When I clearly am not.


check your browser…
spelling check is a browser function, not a forum function


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## Argus (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Yes someone else said that to me, but I never heard the word whilst I was growing up, and it seemed alien when it started reappearing from across the water.




I seem to remember 'gotten' cropping up in cowboy films and the like that migrated across the Atlantic when I was a kid.
I was pointed out at the time that it was 'incorrect' English. It turned out that the word was , how can I say it...... coming home?

It was a similar exercise in the conventions of spelling, which continues through its transition into economising thumb-strokes onto a small screen

Originally, words were spelled exactly as they were pronounced, dialectic inflections, accents and all. 
All this for a largely illiterate population.
Later spelling became 'correct' - or even incorrect - when it became established as a printer's convention and you can blame Johnson and his like, in and out of Fleet Street, for that!


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## Doug71 (17 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> It took me an age to find out what a dado was, but I still don't know what a dado rail is or if I actually need one.



The dado rail is often fixed to the "drywall" somewhere above the "baseboard".........

A couple more words there that people now seem to use thanks to Youtube


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## niall Y (17 Sep 2022)

akirk said:


> check your browser…
> spelling check is a browser function, not a forum function



Ahhh............ wondered if there was a way of changing that. Many thanks! Colour, colour, colour.......... it works!


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## Adam W. (17 Sep 2022)

Doug71 said:


> The dado rail is often fixed to the "drywall" somewhere above the "baseboard".........
> 
> A couple more words there that people now seem to use thanks to Youtube


What ??


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Yes someone else said that to me, but I never heard the word whilst I was growing up, and it seemed alien when it started reappearing from across the water.


it's only use in English English is as ill gotten gains.


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## niall Y (17 Sep 2022)

Ill- gotten ( with a hyphen)


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## Ttrees (17 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> We're English. Don't we adopt foreign words that we like or find interesting in the same way that we adopt foods ?
> 
> I enjoy the good ones but find it irritating when people concoct new words just because they seem to be uneducated / ignorant about the perfectly good ones that we already have.


Yet to read of a more apt word to replace skookum which does the job as soundly.


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## Sideways (17 Sep 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Yet to read of a more apt word to replace skookum which does the job as soundly.


pukka ?

But yes, skookum's a wonderful word  

We (probably) stole a good one from French : un "truc", which can mean a trick, a technique, truqué for tricky .... but can also mean "a thing", a whatsit .... 
It's a word that could have a lot of use around the workshop.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

One word that's not been adopted from Cornish, which is a pity - a spence. It's a cupboard under the stairs. So much better than "a/the cupboard under the stairs". From the word for larder, a spencer is a butler.


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## J-G (17 Sep 2022)

HamsterJam said:


> #rantmodeon
> ... the use of Z instead of S in words ending ‘ise’.
> #rantmodeoff


!!!! I just knew someone would bring that issue up -- INCORRECTLY !!!!

'ize' is *not* the 'American' version! That idea came about because an early version of Word came with a dictionary which Bill Gates (or one of his minions) stole from WordPerfect thinking that it was a US version but was in fact their UK version. Over the intervening 30+ years - and of course the attendent rise in popularity of PCs in general and word-processing in particular the 'populace' have assimilated the corruption.


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## Adam W. (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Correct!


Ha!


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## dizjasta (17 Sep 2022)

Why use:-
"my bad" instead of my mistake.
"absolutely" instead of yes.


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## niall Y (17 Sep 2022)

J-G said:


> !!!! I just knew someone would bring that issue up -- INCORRECTLY !!!!
> 
> 'ize' is *not* the 'American' version! That idea came about because an early version of Word came with a dictionary which Bill Gates (or one of his minions) stole from WordPerfect thinking that it was a US version but was in fact their UK version. Over the intervening 30+ years - and of course the attendent raise in popularity of PCs in general and word-processing in particular the 'populace' have asimilated the corruption.


Would agree that -ise and -ize is not a good example to illustrate the difference, Since it seems that- ize was the form favoured by Oxford English Dictionary and by Webster's. We have deviated over the years and now -ise is more common but -ize is still an acceptable alternative


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Bill Bryson's The Mother Tongue is worth reading.


edit - as are all Bill Bryson's.


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## Garden Shed Projects (17 Sep 2022)

Is English developing a global standard as we are all exposed to the same media. I can assume American and Australian English is developing the same way and robbing words from us. Likely to be less of an issue for them as they aren’t as influenced by their history as we are. It feels we are becoming more Americanised due to the prevalence of American TV, movies and YouTube. It has been happening since before I was a kid. 

English initially became standardised due printing maybe we will look back at now and think the same about global media. 

One thing that grinds a little for me is when English people on YouTube use American terms because they are expecting or hoping to receive the majority of views from our cousins in the states.


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## Spectric (17 Sep 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> Is English developing a global standard as we are all exposed to the same media.


No, language is devolving into a language without spoken words, communication is becoming social media where people will only communicate via so form of device.


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## thetyreman (17 Sep 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> One thing that grinds a little for me is when English people on YouTube use American terms because they are expecting or hoping to receive the majority of views from our cousins in the states.


same here, I've seen people do that too who should know better, if you're english speak like where you come from and be proud of it.


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## John Brown (17 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> yes the internet has definitely changed language mostly for the worst, many people now use american english and we're loosing some old english words, I hear a lot of people using terms like 'bunch' and 'I guess' at the end of statements, fine in america but it's not a very english way of talking.


Losing, not loosing.
Although a whole bunch of folks write loosing, I guess...


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## Adam W. (17 Sep 2022)

A load of pimps and faggots.


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## Noel (17 Sep 2022)

niall Y said:


> Would agree that -ise and -ize is not a good example to illustrate the difference, Since it seems that- ize was the form favoured by Oxford English Dictionary and by Webster's. We have deviated over the years and now -ise is more common but -ize is still an acceptable alternative


Can I offer you some advise…….


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## MARK.B. (17 Sep 2022)

Wassup dudes, bin hangin at my best homies crib jus chillin n stuff ,cracked open a few buds and bro i gotta tell ya dey was sweeeet innit. anyhoo so like base ic ally we woz jus sayin how sick my brah's new set of wheeelze woz an how coool my homie looked cruwesin roun da hood,so i mean like base ic ally aint no punk a ss gangsta gonna mess wid my boy coz he da man innit ,so i mean like base ica lly ya diss my bro an he gonna put ya in a whole world o pain an stuff innit . i mean like base ic ally ya gota shows some spect when yoouze iz on my turf innit.
Peace out dudes.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Did you steal that from someone working for the BBC?


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## MARK.B. (17 Sep 2022)

nah dude jus chill will ya i mean like base ic ally me an my puter bin doin the biz


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## Terry - Somerset (17 Sep 2022)

Language allows us to communicate. We can do that without getting upset about misplaced apostrophes, ise not ize, txtspk etc.

Does the recipient receive the message we thought we sent. Using archaic, local expressions, or languages only understood by 1 in 10000 (eg: Welsh) does not help communicate.

Language may create emotional or spiritual associations. It can even be intellectually stimulating to speculate on the roots and usage of words like "dado". There is little fundamentally worthy about them - that many fail to understand makes them an ineffective way to communicate.

Language changes - a little like history - it is written by the victors not the losers. Many words reflect the dominance of the UK in the industrial revolution for which a new language necessarily evolved.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

An English teacher wrote the words:

“A woman without her man is nothing”

on the chalkboard he asked the students to punctuate it correctly.

All of the males in the class wrote:

“A woman, without her man, is nothing.”

All of the females in the class wrote:

“A woman: without her, man is nothing.”

Punctuation is powerful.


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## John Brown (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> An English teacher wrote the words:
> 
> “A woman without her man is nothing”
> 
> ...


Great story, but in reality both the males and the females would have stared blankly at the teacher.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)




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## Pineapple (18 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Well, if that's the case, I still don't know what a dado is. I always thought it was a plinth under a column or panelling to the lower part of a wall.


The panelling on the lower part of a wall is called "Wainscotting" or Wainscot. (Wain is a Scottish word - with Viking roots.) 
It means children = "wee yuns", pronounced - wains.
Definition of wainscot | Dictionary.com (Usually oak in wealthier homes & any redwood - usually Pitch-Pine, in average homes.)
I think that the originating idea is to protect the wall from over-boisterous children or clumsy adults.


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## gregmcateer (18 Sep 2022)

This made me chuckle:


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## Scruples (18 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Table saw, dado, sled, lumber ...
> 
> Gotten ...
> 
> ...


You have to remember what language became dominant in the US. Webster wanted to simplify the language and so set about standardising the spelling across the pond. Hence they have color, flavor, humor and like to Z where we moved away from them in words like organize/organise. Most books use the American spellings, as do applications like Windows and Apple. We have always adopted new words from many languages. Sometimes they stick and some fade away as short-term fancies.
I'll use real English spelling but always understand the need to dumb it down for our friends across the pond. They can keep their 2x 4s, I'll carry on with 4x2s.


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## Adam W. (18 Sep 2022)

@Pineapple

Dado comes from an Italian word "to dice" and probably gets used in USAnia more than it does here. Wainscot comes from the Dutch or low Saxon word _wandschote_ for wall panelling or wall protection, and is not necessarily for just the lower half of the wall.


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## hlvd (18 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Table saw, dado, sled, lumber ...
> 
> Gotten ...
> 
> ...


Whilst I agree, I suspect the correct terms are still used and taught in the trade, with the American terms probably used on the hobby side of things.


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## Johnwa (18 Sep 2022)

Just to put my pet irritation into the pot. Why do people start a sentence with "so"? It gets on my wick


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## HamsterJam (18 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> A load of pimps and faggots.


Not sure about the pimps but faggots are great with gravy, chips and mushy peas


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## Rodpr (18 Sep 2022)

One thing that we can rely on never changing is people's irritation when things change. The French set up an institute to try to protect their language against the influx of foreign words but they were about as successful as king sprout. Changes only stick if enough people adopt them and the ebb and flow adds to the richness of the language. Many words have deep roots and fascinating back stories for those who are interested.


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## HamsterJam (18 Sep 2022)

niall Y said:


> Would agree that -ise and -ize is not a good example to illustrate the difference, Since it seems that- ize was the form favoured by Oxford English Dictionary and by Webster's. We have deviated over the years and now -ise is more common but -ize is still an acceptable alternative





J-G said:


> !!!! I just knew someone would bring that issue up -- INCORRECTLY !!!!
> 
> 'ize' is *not* the 'American' version! That idea came about because an early version of Word came with a dictionary which Bill Gates (or one of his minions) stole from WordPerfect thinking that it was a US version but was in fact their UK version. Over the intervening 30+ years - and of course the attendent rise in popularity of PCs in general and word-processing in particular the 'populace' have assimilated the corruption.


Point taken, and after researching a little, I agree that either is technically acceptable (although be aware there are some words where it isn’t).
However I think in general use ‘ise’ is (was?) more commonly seen in Britain and ‘ize’ in the US. I also opine the exposure to American English is driving the reversion to ize rather than any desire to switch away from French to the Greek roots of British English.


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## Kittyhawk (18 Sep 2022)

Language, probably one of the best tools in the toolbox.
English is a precise and technical language which I imagine accounts for it's almost universal usage but there are a couple of others that I would describe as more pictorial and in which I can speak a few words.
The first is Dutch (courtesy of my wife) which I would describe as a very earthy language - some of the words and phrases have me rolling around the floor laughing.
Dudelsack - bagpipes - literally a monotone bag.
Stofzuiger - vacuum cleaner - literally a dust sucker.
Drollenvanger - jodhpurs - literally dung catchers.
Binoculars - verrekijker - literally far looker.
I can imagine the captain on one of HM warships coming onto the bridge, seeing something on the horizon and saying to the chief officer, 'pass me the far-lookers, No.1....'
And if Dutch is difficult, Irish is even worse. Apart from the grammar with which I have great difficulty, in many instances the translation of the words have meanings which don't appear applicable to the sentiments being expressed. Some simple phrases.
Dia dhuit - hello - literally god to you
Le do thoil - please - literally if it is your will
Go raibh maith agat - thank you - literally may there be goodness at you.
English isn't so bad even though there is a tendency to mess it up a bit.


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## Alex H (18 Sep 2022)

Johnwa said:


> Just to put my pet irritation into the pot. Why do people start a sentence with "so"? It gets on my wick



So, what is it about starting with "so", that annoys you so much?


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## Adam W. (18 Sep 2022)

Kittyhawk said:


> Language, probably one of the best tools in the toolbox.
> English is a precise and technical language which I imagine accounts for it's almost universal usage but there are a couple of others that I would describe as more pictorial and in which I can speak a few words.
> The first is Dutch (courtesy of my wife) which I would describe as a very earthy language - some of the words and phrases have me rolling around the floor laughing.
> Dudelsack - bagpipes - literally a monotone bag.
> ...


You have to have your whole dinner in your mouth to speak Danish.


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## GweithdyDU (18 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Language allows us to communicate. We can do that without getting upset about misplaced apostrophes, ise not ize, txtspk etc.
> 
> Does the recipient receive the message we thought we sent. Using archaic, local expressions, or languages only understood by 1 in 10000 (eg: Welsh) does not help communicate.
> 
> ...


So are you suggesting that there should just be one language for the world, and that that language should be English? I'm not sure that's what you mean, but merely wondering. Diolch.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

J-G said:


> That is very un-like you Adam -- I've always looked upon you as one who does immaculate research
> 
> A Dado Rail tops the Wainscot and was originally intended to ward off furniture causing damage to said Wainscot or the wall itself. Laterly of course it has become a decorative feature or demarcation.
> 
> When I last decorated my hallway I installed a Dado Rail with a vertical stripe wall-paper below (essentially a false Wainscot) and a small print wall-paper above.


Common form of wainscot in Victorian houses was gloss painted anaglypta wall paper from skirting to dado rail at about waist height.
Etymology. From Ancient Greek ἀναγλύφω (anaglúphō, “to carve in relief”). It was originally a brand name, was invented in 1877.


----------



## DJT48 (18 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> English is the best/worst language (depending I suppose upon your viewpoint) in the world for mutating and theft of words, and is better for it.
> 
> Two things that irritate, though - changing to U.S pronunciations, although that's inevitable (we speak English English, not world (U.S.) English, and change that actually makes things longer like "for free". Why? What was wrong with "I picked it up free".
> 
> Bad grammar is a different matter, such as using overly when the word used should have been over. But I'm being overly ..... sorry, over fussy.


I don't think you are fussy, the correct word is discerning.


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## J-G (18 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Common form of wainscot in Victorian houses was gloss painted anaglypta wall paper from skirting to dado rail at about waist height.
> Etymology. From Ancient Greek ἀναγλύφω (anaglúphō, “to carve in relief”). It was originally a brand name, was invented in 1877.


The Victorians may well have used Anaglypta as a faux Wainstcot, but the original Wainscot was (is?) specifically high quality riven Oak boards. The name Anaglypta may well derive from the Greek but Wainscot is derived from German for 'wall-board'


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Language is just words but things go wrong when you use words in a way that conflicts with reality. A good example is some of the nonsense now being used like the NHS with " for people who bleed "


Unwoke nonsense! Popular with Daily Mail and Express readers - they like getting their knickers in a twist (and underpants of course  )


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

J-G said:


> The Victorians may well have used Anaglypta as a faux Wainstcot, but the original Wainscot was (is?) specifically high quality riven Oak boards. The name Anaglypta may well derive from the Greek but Wainscot is derived from German for 'wall-board'


and "In architecture, the dado is the lower part of a wall, below the dado rail and above the skirting board. The word is borrowed from Italian meaning "dice" or "cube", and refers to "die", an architectural term for the middle section of a pedestal or plinth!"


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

You could say that all people do bleed but may end up in A&E and not every month.


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## Garden Shed Projects (18 Sep 2022)

I think we, the English, no longer own the English language. We took it out into the world and encouraged others to speak it, sometimes voluntarily and sometimes not so much. English is used in many lesser spoken languages and patwa’s to describe modern things and concepts. Caribbean countries, African countries, Malaysia on top of countries that use it as a first language it is the standard language for air traffic control, even internal flights in foreign countries have announcements in English ( I used to think it was because I was on the plane). We are very lucky to have been brought up with English as our first language. 

It is of course a double edged sword as we are terrible at foreign languages. This carries for the uk and USA, maybe Australia too. Do we have some kind of in built superiority complex or does the language structure not encourage it. It has been proven that different languages build brains differently. 

I was listening to recent Infinate Monkey Cage podcast about the best way to teach maths. They were discussing people who don’t do maths (people who say “ I don’t do maths”) versus people who love maths. They mentioned places like Malaysia who as the norm looked at a maths problem and there immediate response being “ I don’t understand this yet”. Like some king of national psychi which gave them selves space to learn and understand complex concepts. 

I think this must be the same with us and foreign languages. We don’t allow ourselves room to think and comprehend other languages. Maybe because of the way English makes us think. I am not making excuses for my failure to learn a second language as I live in a multi lingual house hold but still struggle to join in.


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## niall Y (18 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> Can I offer you some advise…….


................ only if you come from 'Devices'


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> ....
> 
> It is of course a double edged sword as we are terrible at foreign languages. .....


We are terrible at our own languages. Many people don't even know they exist, let alone speak them. Languages of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
They should be taught in British schools, along with the inconvenient history of those who speak them.


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

The fact we speak english is just luck, we were just a bunch of grunting savages until the romans turned up speaking latin for the next four hundred years and we never managed to learn latin. Then when they left we went back to our primative ways for the next six hundred years until the normans turn up speaking french, but we end up speaking english.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> The fact we speak english is just luck, we were just a bunch of grunting savages until the romans turned up speaking latin for the next four hundred years and we never managed to learn latin. Then when they left we went back to our primative ways for the next six hundred years until the normans turn up speaking french, but we end up speaking english.


The ruling clarses still speak with a french accent - the long "A" whereby "ass" sounds like "buttocks"


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

We do use french a lot when it comes to marketing, look at the stench quench (perfume) adverts , they all use a french twist.


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## selectortone (18 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> The fact we speak english is just luck, we were just a bunch of grunting savages until the romans turned up speaking latin for the next four hundred years and we never managed to learn latin. Then when they left we went back to our primative ways for the next six hundred years until the normans turn up speaking french, but we end up speaking english.


You missed out the Angles, after which England and the language are named.


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## Garden Shed Projects (18 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> We are terrible at our own languages. Many people don't even know they exist, let alone speak them. Languages of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
> They should be taught in British schools, along with the inconvenient history of those who speak them.


I am not convinced a lot of energy should be spent on dead and dying languages at school other than as a footnote in history. Time would be better spent on teaching kids the more global languages like Spanish, Russian, Arabic and Chinese. Stop wasting their time with French. We need to look at how best to achieve this, countries in Scandinavia and The Netherlands are almost 100% bilingual. Why are we so different, what are we doing wrong?


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## DRC (18 Sep 2022)

Ozi said:


> A dado rail is the thing to hang dados on - as they are quite heavy it's best not to put then higher than waist level.


Is there not a Dado line on ships???


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> I am not convinced a lot of energy should be spent on dead and dying languages at school other than as a footnote in history


IE welsh, not much use unless you live in a small area of north wales.


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## MARK.B. (18 Sep 2022)

DRC said:


> Is there not a Dado line on ships???


There is a plimsoll line on merchant ships indicating the safe level that the ship can be loaded with cargo .


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> I am not convinced a lot of energy should be spent on dead and dying languages at school other than as a footnote in history. Time would be better spent on teaching kids the more global languages like Spanish, Russian, Arabic and Chinese. Stop wasting their time with French. We need to look at how best to achieve this, countries in Scandinavia and The Netherlands are almost 100% bilingual.


Welsh Gaelic neither dead nor dying. They are part of our culture and history. Also being bilingual increases language learning ability in general. What's wrong with learning our nearest neighbours' language French?


Garden Shed Projects said:


> Why are we so different, what are we doing wrong?


Basically being xenophobic and suspicious of "abroad", e.g. as demonstrated by the brexit vote. How many brexiters have taken up the brexit "opportunity" as a reason for learning another language? I guess none at all - they probably feel that they are now free of horrible foreign stuff!


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## rogxwhit (18 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> or languages only understood by 1 in 10000 (eg: Welsh)


It might be 1 in 10000 globally, or even for all I know in Somerset, but round here I'd guess that its at least 1 in 2. Give peace a chance ...


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Sep 2022)

Here we go again. It's not racist to wish not to have your laws made by unelected foreign politicians.
Incidentally, I did A level French 50 years ago ................ and have never needed to use a word of it since.


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## rogxwhit (18 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> not much use unless you live in a small area of north wales.


Done a study, have you? I doubt it.


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## Garden Shed Projects (18 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Welsh Gaelic neither dead nor dying. They are part of our culture and history. Also being bilingual increases language learning ability in general. What's wrong with learning our nearest neighbours' language French?
> 
> Basically being xenophobic and suspicious of "abroad", e.g. as demonstrated by the brexit vote. How many brexiters have taken up the brexit "opportunity" as a reason for learning another language? I guess none at all - they probably feel that they are now free of horrible foreign stuff!


Don’t mention the B word. You’ll get in bother. 

We live in global world and French isn’t spoken as much as Spanish, Russian, Arabic and Chinese. 

I don’t think it’s xenophobia it’s more of a self belief in English. It’s a failing at school level. It needs to become embedded from an early age and we just don’t do it.


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## Garden Shed Projects (18 Sep 2022)

I travelled a lot in my 20’s and 30’s with work and had the opportunity to spend months at a time in a number of different countries. The thing I always remember is that local people were excited at the opportunity to speak English with native speakers and took advantage. The words they used was often creative and they often shoe horned large and complicated words or phrases in where ever they could. It often sounded odd to my ear but they were stretching their language muscles and developing their skills. 

And I let them, as a result I have few language skills. No one’s fault but my own.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Here we go again. It's not racist to wish not to have your laws made by unelected foreign politicians.


They weren't unelected and they didn't make laws without our consent.


Phil Pascoe said:


> Incidentally, I did A level French 50 years ago ................ and have never needed to use a word of it since.


You need to get out and about a bit! What a missed opportunity!


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

What you do find is the english speak english but I have found both the Japanese and Germans speak english fluently, that must show that there is a need and because they both spoke english then us english did not bother to speak anything else but english.


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## Garden Shed Projects (18 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Here we go again. It's not racist to wish not to have your laws made by unelected foreign politicians.
> Incidentally, I did A level French 50 years ago ................ and have never needed to use a word of it since.


If you had learnt a different language to French would it have been more use?


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> They weren't unelected and they didn't make laws without our consent.
> 
> You need to get out and about a bit! What a missed opportunity!


Why? I've never since school needed or wanted to go to France.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Sep 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> If you had learnt a different language to French would it have been more use?


German and Latin. Latin, yes. German, no.


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> They weren't unelected and they didn't make laws without our consent.


MEPs, the elected ones are there for show - they have little influence.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> MEPs, the elected ones are there for show - they have little influence.


Oh yes they did.








What do MEPs do?


Your MEPs are your elected representatives in the EU and they represent your interests and those of your city or region in Europe. They listen to people with local and national concerns, interest groups and businesses. They can question and lobby the Commission and the Council of Ministers.




www.europarl.europa.eu




Haven't you realised yet that brexit was all total bollorks based on lies and hysteria?


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Sep 2022)

What do you think the EU would tell you? That MEPs do five eights of FA? The whole EU is based on lies, and the EEC was based on lies in the beginning. Had the liar Heath been truthful we'd probably never have gone in. Wait til Germany alone has to bail out half the Mediterranean. It's coming. No need to thank me.

Anyway, that's enough of that.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> What do you think the EU would tell you? That MEPs do five eights of FA? The whole EU is based on lies, and the EEC was based on lies in the beginning. Had the liar Heath been truthful we'd probably never have gone in. Wait til Germany alone has to bail out half the Mediterranean. It's coming. No need to thank me.
> 
> Anyway, that's enough of that.


What would you say was the most tangible benefit of Brexit achieved in the 6 years of intensive preparation and negotiation since the referendum?


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## selectortone (18 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> What do you think the EU would tell you?


For God's sake... Don't get him started


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## Terry - Somerset (18 Sep 2022)

This is a fairly objective summary of EU democratic processes - although of somewhat academic interest now that we have left.

EU democracy

There are weaknesses - different to our own (UK) but the takeaway is that:

the UK places responsibility for the actions of government on elected MPs - the professional unelected Civil Service actually do the work and remain largely unaccountable.
The EU Commision are unelected full time bureaucrats but accountable to MEPs.
The EU council of Ministers has a representative appointed by each member nation and are thus the outcome of a democratic process
IMHO the EU approach is superior to the UK in placing responsibility on professional permanent civil servants, not MPs who are frequently in post for a limited period, have limited relevant experience, and whose actions are conditioned by opinion polls.

BTW - whilst I voted to remain, we sacrificed independence through treaty changes - creating a potential federation whose role expanded massively from an economic and market alliance. 

Far from being a bastion of mature democracy the UK has real weaknesses in the role and appointment of a second chamber (HoL), uses FPTP rather than PR, and sacrifices coherent long term direction as MPs actions are dominated by immediate opinion polls.

The problems of being 1 of 28 in the EU is no different to the tensions created within the UK England, Scotland, Wales, NI) and at a lower level still - between central government, local government, unitary authorities, town and local councils. 

To get the benefits of being part of a larger central organisation inevitably means sacrificing some degree of independence.


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## Rich_D (18 Sep 2022)

Going back to English language changing for the worse is past tense words no longer used by people who should know better. E.G I bought a loaf of bread yesterday. Is now I did buy a loaf of bread…., said has become did say……walked has become did walk. The BBC presenters are the worse culprits. Rant over.


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## rogxwhit (18 Sep 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> We live in global world


I thought that it was flat ...


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## Kittyhawk (18 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Why? I've never since school needed or wanted to go to France.


That is so sad.


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## Garden Shed Projects (18 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> I thought that it was flat ...


Doesn’t make a lot of sense. I suppose I meant global society.


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## John Brown (18 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> What would you say was the most tangible benefit of Brexit achieved in the 6 years of intensive preparation and negotiation since the referendum?


Apart from the banana thing, obviously...


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2022)

Kittyhawk said:


> That is so sad.


Why? That seems to me a rather curious comment. (Incidentally, I've been to NZ twice - lovely Country.)


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## thetyreman (19 Sep 2022)

I've heard from several sources that french people don't like to wash and going on public transport stinks, they can certainly cook though and have some of the best food so I will forgive them.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2022)

Their cooking standards outside the very top level are falling dramatically, apparently - I read not long ago of large numbers of middle ranking restaurants (the small and medium sized family run ones) closing.
They have more McDonalds per capita than the UK.


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2022)

Tut!


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## Valhalla (19 Sep 2022)

deema said:


> How many know that the old timers UK word for uncut raw timber is ‘stuff’ which is also used in the texts. I use it in my threads and nobody has picked up on it, which is a surprise.
> 
> I think table saw is a term in the UK, but is for a saw that is placed on a table……contractors saw type…..where as we used to use cabinet saw for a floor standing saw.
> 
> Dado set is I believe the same as the UK, just illegal for professional shops to use I believe.


And 'Deal' was a much used timber back in the day.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2022)

A deal was actually a size of timber rather than a type afaik.


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## John Brown (19 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> A deal was actually a size of timber rather than a type afaik.


Maybe in the original usage. When my father(born 1912) used the term it meant cheap softwood, as far as I remember.


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## John Brown (19 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Their cooking standards outside the very top level are falling dramatically, apparently - I read not long ago of large numbers of middle ranking restaurants (the small and medium sized family run ones) closing.
> They have more McDonalds per capita than the UK.


Hard to believe. One of my old school chums is a McDonald, and so is my next door neighbour (who has a small farm, as it happens). I've never met a French person with the name.


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## selectortone (19 Sep 2022)

Deal was the crappy softwood we had to use in woodwork classes at school back in the 60s. The worst sort of pine.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> ........
> 
> To get the benefits of being part of a larger central organisation inevitably means sacrificing some degree of independence.


It also means pro-actively participating in ways to improve the organisation, which no longer possible except as subordinate negotiators with no rights at all.


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## Marcusthehat (19 Sep 2022)

Deal, but pronounced more like "dale" was what my first boss, (who was a traditional old school time served joiner, who started with The Londonderry Corporation, and claimed to remember pushing a handcart with his tools and timber through the streets to go work on the housing stock, and he would now be well into his 90's) called otherwise unspecified softwood/whitewood/cheap joinery wood.


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## rogxwhit (19 Sep 2022)

My understanding is that deal was originally a commercial term for a size of board, and later a certain quantity of wood, but the term came to describe the wood itself - I remember 'white deal' and 'red deal' being used for spruce and pine.


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2022)

Deal was generally imported sawn timber from the Baltic states and it's a very old term. I'll try to dig out some of the history on it later on in the week once everything has calmed down.

Here's an article from Sven-Erik Åström about it.......


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## Fergie 307 (19 Sep 2022)

Johnwa said:


> Just to put my pet irritation into the pot. Why do people start a sentence with "so"? It gets on my wick


Or "like" as some sort of punctuation.


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## Noel (20 Sep 2022)

Please, back to English language etc.


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## rogxwhit (20 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> But you are either too obtuse or just plain rude


Bloody Northerners with their septic tanks ...


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## Kittyhawk (20 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Why? That seems to me a rather curious comment. (Incidentally, I've been to NZ twice - lovely Country.)


Travel, as they say, broadens the mind and its true. I didn't know how much I didn't know until I saw NZ disappearing astern of the ship I had just signed onto. In my seafaring career I've been to Arkangel in the north and Tristan de Cunha in the south and most places inbetween and the totally foreign places were the best.
I'm glad that you enjoyed your visits to NZ but both English and Kiwis are cut from the same cloth and I note that when NZers go on their winter vacation it's to Oz, Fiji or Tonga - places full of other kiwis and where English is the predominant language. Nice, cozy and safe. They won't go to New Caledonia which is far more beautiful because its full of foreigners who talk funny. And aren't the English the same? Ibiza, Majorka..?
Well everybody knows the French are grumpy, short tempered and unhelpful, right?
Up until covid came along and upset the applecart I owned a canal boat based in Nancy and each year wife and I would spend 5 months on board cruising the French canals.
In our experience and also that of all other foreign canallers, if you make even the most token efforts with the language and customs the French will open up to you and you will find them the most delightful and obliging people you can ever wish to meet.
And the same for the Germans (the southern ones at least ), the Austrians, Swiss, Dutch, Japanese, Taiwanese, Brazilians.... the only people I've ever found to be a bit dour are the Belgians, a shame really because I'm half a one.
So I think it is a bit sad that you have rejected France as a place worth visiting because it is, if only for the reason that 10 euros will get you a damn fine burgundy.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Sep 2022)

For the same money I'd rather drink Argentinian, Australian, Chilean, South African ...
NZ pinot noirs are wonderful, but a bit light for me. We had a guided tour by the M.D. of what was Selak's (Nobilo), we had a trade introduction. Some of their whites were stunning - a well qualified French sommelier I worked with took a label home as he said no one at home would believe how good it was - he thought it was a Grand Cru Sauternes. (About NZ$25 a half bottle, 25 years ago.)


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## Fergie 307 (20 Sep 2022)

Kittyhawk said:


> Travel, as they say, broadens the mind and its true. I didn't know how much I didn't know until I saw NZ disappearing astern of the ship I had just signed onto. In my seafaring career I've been to Arkangel in the north and Tristan de Cunha in the south and most places inbetween and the totally foreign places were the best.
> I'm glad that you enjoyed your visits to NZ but both English and Kiwis are cut from the same cloth and I note that when NZers go on their winter vacation it's to Oz, Fiji or Tonga - places full of other kiwis and where English is the predominant language. Nice, cozy and safe. They won't go to New Caledonia which is far more beautiful because its full of foreigners who talk funny. And aren't the English the same? Ibiza, Majorka..?
> Well everybody knows the French are grumpy, short tempered and unhelpful, right?
> Up until covid came along and upset the applecart I owned a canal boat based in Nancy and each year wife and I would spend 5 months on board cruising the French canals.
> ...


I think its mostly just laziness, certainly in my case im sorry to say. When most places have people who speak English why take the trouble to learn their languages. But you are quite correct about making an effort. The boss and I really enjoy getting a bit off the beaten track. In rural France or Spain you will find charming places but need to at least try and speak the language if you are to be accepted. We both have a sort of pidgin French and Spanish. Not enough to have a proper conversation, but enough to get by. I find my understanding of written or spoken French far exceeds my ability to speak it. Spanish less so, mainly owing to the machine gun speed of most Spanish speakers, I cant keep up. My mother was one of those people who found it very easy and spoke French and Italian fluently. She could also hold a passable conversation in German or Polish. Always amazed me as a child that after only a few days in a country she would already have picked up quite a lot. Sadly I have not inherited that particular talent. Once I retire we will hopefully have more time to travel, and will have to buck our ideas up and learn more.


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## Terry - Somerset (20 Sep 2022)

One of the benefits of empire is that English is the most widely spoken language internationally, although Mandarin (I understand) is the language spoken by most people.

This is probably why the English put so little effort into learning a foreign language - in business, trade, tourism they have little need so to do. The default - if Johnny Foreigner doesn't understand, shout louder and more slowly on the arrogant basis it is they who are clearly deficient. 

Recent advice was that learning Mandarin was the key to career success. However, I suspect the Chinese in pursuit of world domination are far more willing to learn English than encourage the rest of the world to learn their mother tongue.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Sep 2022)

I believe Mandarin is the language most spoken as a first language, English the most spoken over all. I suspect reasons why some Countries' populations tend to speak second languages are two fold, 1/ because often the native language is very much a minority one, and 2/ they have borders with Countries with different languages so have a natural interchange, both of which are not applicable to us.


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## Dionysios (20 Sep 2022)

I’ve read all the posts in the thread (I think) and I would like to add my two cents (or maybe pennies?) in the conversation.

To begin with, the mutation of a language is one thing, the misuse of a language is another.

In regards of mutation:

1. A language is a live thing and it changes through the ages. As time passes it will evolve to cover the contemporary communication needs and as a result new words will appear and older words might be forgotten.

2. English is still quite a primitive language and it will go through many changes, more than other older languages at least.

3. The Americans, being a population of people with many different linguistic backgrounds, are trying to rationalise the relationship between pronunciation and spelling. For example meter/metre, theater/theatre. These words are pronounced the same both in US and Britain but the British still keep the Greek spelling.

4. Since the American English are more widespread through the movies, TV series etc. some of the changes they carry will inevitably prevail which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

In regards of misuse:

The main issue when people are not able to use correctly their native language is lack of reading.

And when I say reading I mean books or well written essays in news papers or magazines and not posts in the social media. Unfortunately according to a recent article of The Guardian one in five children in the UK doesn’t own a book.

This results to people who are just trying to reproduce a sound as they've heard it, which is not always correct, without having seen it written on paper. Hence I hear many people saying drawring (drawing), sawring (sawing), free (three), brought (bought), let alone what happens when they are trying to write something.

Reading good books will not only make you appreciate the beauty of a language, but it will also improve your own way to use the language and you will be less vulnerable to the linguistic absurdities that are widespread through the internet. Books will expand your knowledge as well, broaden your mind and enhance your critical thinking, but this a topic for a different thread.


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## thetyreman (20 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> Doesn't the rest of the UK have a say in that - or is linguistic imperialism okay in some circumstances?


I don't have a clue what you're on about, is this a political statement? because I'm not for imperialism.


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## thetyreman (20 Sep 2022)

John Brown said:


> Losing, not loosing.
> Although a whole bunch of folks write loosing, I guess...


very patronising post, thanks.


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## Spectric (20 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I've heard from several sources that french people don't like to wash and going on public transport stinks,


perhaps thats why they produce so much perfume, stench quench for the french.


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## John Brown (20 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> very patronising post, thanks.


You're welcome!
If you start complaining about other people's use of language you open yourself up to criticism.


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## Droogs (20 Sep 2022)

When i was doing my linguistics degree I was amazed at the number of versions of english there are, many of which other english speakers would have difficulty in understanding when spoken. Yet they are all english. A sad fact I learned was that english has the largest lexicon of any langauge and yet compared to 60 years ago the amount used in everyday communications today has shrunk by around 7% compared to then, blamed mostly on TV and electronic text media funnily enough. English is the most versatile language ever known to civilization mainly due to it's ability to ignore it's own grammar, syntax and original gender rules and still make sense.

just take the old Brtish gas advert with the tortoise saying "I like things to be off and onable". Total rule breaker in almost every way


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## JimJay (21 Sep 2022)

Dionysios said:


> I’ve read all the posts in the thread (I think) and I would like to add my two cents (or maybe pennies?) in the conversation.
> 
> To begin with, the mutation of a language is one thing, the misuse of a language is another.
> 
> ...


3. If the British "kept the Greek spelling" those words (in the Latin alphabet) would be "metron" and "theatron".....as a gent with your nickname should know


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## stuart little (21 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Or "like" as some sort of punctuation.


So, it get's on your wick?


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Sep 2022)

So, it gets on his wick, like.


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## stuart little (21 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> So, it gets on his wick, like.


Damn I forgot to add 'like', like.


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## Geoff_S (21 Sep 2022)

So, damn I forgot to add “like” like, innit.


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## stuart little (21 Sep 2022)

Geoff_S said:


> So, damn I forgot to add “like” like, innit awesome!


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## JimJay (21 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> One of the benefits of empire is that English is the most widely spoken language internationally, although Mandarin (I understand) is the language spoken by most people.
> 
> This is probably why the English put so little effort into learning a foreign language - in business, trade, tourism they have little need so to do. The default - if Johnny Foreigner doesn't understand, shout louder and more slowly on the arrogant basis it is they who are clearly deficient.
> 
> Recent advice was that learning Mandarin was the key to career success. However, I suspect the Chinese in pursuit of world domination are far more willing to learn English than encourage the rest of the world to learn their mother tongue.


A lot of Chinese people are interested in learning English as an intellectual exercise as well as a means of communication; I teach a large class of them over the internet, including lecturers of English in a number of Chinese universities. To be honest, the level of these university teachers' English is surprisingly low, as many of them are themselves prepared to admit. However, I do bolster their spirits with stories, and examples, of the pretty poor level of English spoken, and written, by many native speakers these days. That's not a dig at anyone here but merely a reflection of how standards have fallen over the past several decades.


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## Dionysios (21 Sep 2022)

@JimJay, Actually in Contemporary Greek is 'metro' and 'theatro' (even the oldest live language changes, that's why it's live) and the spelling is essentially the same with the english words. Though with that example I was pointing out the rationalization that the Americans try to imply between spelling and pronounciation and not the similarity with the Greek spelling.

As for your second post, I will totally agree with you about the fallen standards. Unfortunately the dismissal of reading as a way to learn, improve your language skills and broaden your mind, along with the intrusion of internet and social media has led to the creation of people who can barely speak and write correctly their native language. Even worse I'm afraid that after a while all these linguistic atrocities that we hear or read will be regarded as the correct use of the language.

P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name


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## gregmcateer (21 Sep 2022)

Dionysios said:


> P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name


Wow! You grape crusher, you!


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## Spectric (21 Sep 2022)

Has anyone actually noticed that the human race is also mutating and it is not just our language ?


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## JimJay (21 Sep 2022)

Dionysios said:


> @JimJay, Actually in Contemporary Greek is 'metro' and 'theatro' (even the oldest live language changes, that's why it's live) and the spelling is essentially the same with the english words. Though with that example I was pointing out the rationalization that the Americans try to imply between spelling and pronounciation and not the similarity with the Greek spelling.
> 
> As for your second post, I will totally agree with you about the fallen standards. Unfortunately the dismissal of reading as a way to learn, improve your language skills and broaden your mind, along with the intrusion of internet and social media has led to the creation of people who can barely speak and write correctly their native language. Even worse I'm afraid that after a while all these linguistic atrocities that we hear or read will be regarded as the correct use of the language.
> 
> P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name


That's true enough, but the etymology of "theatre" and "metre" long predates Demotiki, not to mention that "meter" (the US spelling of the measure and the instrument used to measure) all come from the same Ancient Greek root, "μέτρον", so the mention of "Contemporary Greek" is a red herring. 

PS Jim is one of my names but I only ever used it when I went to boarding school in England - having a "poncy foreign" name like Kostas made you a target for ragging, even if you were big for your age. And if we want to talk about "falling standards", I'd suggest that one of the best examples of that is the phasing out of Katharevousa....


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## JimJay (21 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Has anyone actually noticed that the human race is also mutating and it is not just our language ?


"Mutating" is definitely the right word - it's so much more diplomatic than "dumbing-down"


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## MARK.B. (21 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Has anyone actually noticed that the human race is also mutating and it is not just our language ?



A spare hand or two could actually come in handy with a tricky glue up


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> However, I do bolster their spirits with stories, and examples, of the pretty poor level of English spoken, and written, by many native speakers these days. That's not a dig at anyone here but merely a reflection of how standards have fallen over the past several decades.


 There was a letter in The Times some years ago from a chap whose business was translations, he didn't say in which sphere only that for legal reasons his work had to be very precise. For this reason he employed predominantly Polish and Hungarian English language graduates rather than English ones.

In my first term of Latin in 1965 the master made us learn English grammar for the whole first term, as he maintained that as English was no longer taught properly we wouldn't be able to understand the grammar of a foreign language when we didn't know our own.


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## JimJay (21 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> There was a letter in The Times some years ago from a chap whose business was translations, he didn't say in which sphere only that for legal reasons his work had to be very precise. For this reason he employed predominantly Polish and Hungarian English language graduates rather than English ones.
> 
> In my first term of Latin in 1965 the master made us learn English grammar for the whole first term, as he maintained that as English was no longer taught properly we wouldn't be able to understand the grammar of a foreign language when we didn't know our own.


He was right - and he'd be even more so if he's still clinging onto his perch now; the only difference today is that so many people are proud of knowing nothing but still demand that their unwarranted self-esteem is respected. As I hinted at previously, the first thing I have to get through to my students is that just because the rubbish they encounter on the internet comes from a native speaker is no guarantee that it's grammatical, correctly spelled or even coherent - and I have to disabuse them of the notion that every English word is preceded by "f*cking"..  

I should perhaps add that my Latin master also taught Ancient Greek: it's bad enough how Brits massacre Ancient Greek pronunciation (as taught in Greece) but when a broad Scots accent is thrown in for good measure it's rather difficult to keep a straight face.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Sep 2022)

Both my Latin masters also taught Greek. I had the option of Greek, but took German instead - I have long regretted it. Accents? I was taught French by a Corsican and German by an Englishman who'd lived for many years in Bavaria.


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## JimJay (21 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Both my Latin masters also taught Greek. I had the option of Greek, but took German instead - I have long regretted it. Accents? I was taught French by a Corsican and German by an Englishman who'd lived for many years in Bavaria.


I'd say that you're more likely to bump into someone who speaks German than Ancient Greek, that said my Scottish Ancient Greek teacher used to lecture on the Swan Hellenic cruises and one year found that a fellow-lecturer was a Greek Orthodox priest. He decided to strike up a conversation and, since he didn't speak Modern Greek, launched into Ancient Greek; unfortunately the British pronunciation of the language, coupled with the accent, totally defeated the priest and they ended up conversing in Latin.  
As for other languages, we spoke Greek, English and French at home and I lived in Germany for a number of years; these days I live in Bulgaria, so perforce I speak Bulgarian as my in-laws don't speak any other language.


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## Kittyhawk (21 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> As for other languages, we spoke Greek, English and French at home and I lived in Germany for a number of years; these days I live in Bulgaria, so perforce I speak Bulgarian as my in-laws don't speak any other language.


A true polyglot.
I admire and am envious of your linguistic abilities.


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## JimJay (22 Sep 2022)

Kittyhawk said:


> A true polyglot.
> I admire and am envious of your linguistic abilities.


Don't be - I'm just lucky that I was started on that path when I was very young. Now I'm (a lot) older it's both tougher going when faced with a new language and very clear to me that my memory isn't what it used to be.

In addition, finding that you're reasonably good at something means that there's a temptation not to try other things which you may find heavier going.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

So, like, it really, like, gets on his wick, innit.


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## Suffolk Brian (22 Sep 2022)

Dionysios said:


> @JimJay, Actually in Contemporary Greek is 'metro' and 'theatro' (even the oldest live language changes, that's why it's live) and the spelling is essentially the same with the english words. Though with that example I was pointing out the rationalization that the Americans try to imply between spelling and pronounciation and not the similarity with the Greek spelling.
> 
> As for your second post, I will totally agree with you about the fallen standards. Unfortunately the dismissal of reading as a way to learn, improve your language skills and broaden your mind, along with the intrusion of internet and social media has led to the creation of people who can barely speak and write correctly their native language. Even worse I'm afraid that after a while all these linguistic atrocities that we hear or read will be regarded as the correct use of the language.
> 
> P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name


I completely agree. (I had the fortune/misfortune to go to a traditional grammar school, for my sins.) 
One thing I really get wound up by is the fashion to add a “k” to the end of words, I.e. somethingk. Maybe delete the “g“ according to taste? I have even heard it said quite frequently on the BBC.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> A lot of Chinese people are interested in learning English as an intellectual exercise as well as a means of communication; I teach a large class of them over the internet, including lecturers of English in a number of Chinese universities. To be honest, the level of these university teachers' English is surprisingly low, as many of them are themselves prepared to admit. However, I do bolster their spirits with stories, and examples, of the pretty poor level of English spoken, and written, by many native speakers these days. That's not a dig at anyone here but merely a reflection of how standards have fallen over the past several decades.


I have known the owners of our local Chinese takeaway for over thirty years, a charming couple who have never lost their accent. She is always telling me " you learn Chinese, very easy". I have always taken the view that it was probably not very easy atall. We now have agreed that when I retire she is going to see if she can teach me. A process I suspect she will probably find more frustrating than I will. Their daughter is currently at Oxford, but works the counter in the shop when she is at home. She speaks the most frightfully posh 1940' s BBC newscaster English, certainly puts me to shame. Very funny when she has to give some instruction to the folk in the kitchen and let's go with a torrent of machine gun speed Chinese through the hatch, before switching seamlessly back again.


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## stuart little (22 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> A lot of Chinese people are interested in learning English as an intellectual exercise as well as a means of communication; I teach a large class of them over the internet, including lecturers of English in a number of Chinese universities. To be honest, the level of these university teachers' English is surprisingly low, as many of them are themselves prepared to admit. However, I do bolster their spirits with stories, and examples, of the pretty poor level of English spoken, and written, by many native speakers these days. That's not a dig at anyone here but merely a reflection of how standards have fallen over the past several decades.


Try reading a book (novel) written, say in pre WW1, & compare with present ones, to see how our language has changed - even disregarding the 'modern' verbs & pronouns now so common (in more ways than one!)


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Sep 2022)

My aunt, an Italian, although she left when she was a girl, was in an upmarket London restaurant several decades ago when she heard the waiting staff making extremely insulting comments about customers. She didn't say anything until the bill arrived and the staff were hovering waiting for a tip when she told the to Foxtrot Oscar in no uncertain terms in gutter Venetian Italian.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

And you should always be aware that people may have unsuspected skills laguage wise. A friend of ours is a traffic cop. He tells a good story about doing weight checks on lorries on the motorway. On ghis occasion he was accompanied by a very attractive lady colleague. She often got involved on these occasions as she spoke a number of languages. They had pulled in an Italian lorry, whose driver spoke good English, so he had spoken to him, and she had had no need to reveal her particular talent. Whilst they were doing their traffic cop stuff on the lorry the driver and his mate started up quite an animated conversation in Italian, well within her earshot. Turned out they were discussing her various physical attributes, and the ways in which they might "entertain" her, given the opportunity. He said he almost felt sorry for these two burly blokes standing, head down and very red in the face as she tore them off a strip in fluent Italian. The gist of the conversation being dream on you perverts.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Very funny when she has to give some instruction to the folk in the kitchen and let's go with a torrent of machine gun speed Chinese through the hatch, before switching seamlessly back again.


There are some clips (probably on YT) of an American? going into Chinese restaurants and not letting on he speaks fluent Mandarin. Quite entertaining.


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## thetyreman (22 Sep 2022)

I didn't enjoy being forced to study french in school when I was good at german, my high school had a weird policy of forcing half the entire year to do german and the other half french, instead of just giving us a choice.


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## stuart little (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> And you should always be aware that people may have unsuspected skills laguage wise. A friend of ours is a traffic cop. He tells a good story about doing weight checks on lorries on the motorway. On ghis occasion he was accompanied by a very attractive lady colleague. She often got involved on these occasions as she spoke a number of languages. They had pulled in an Italian lorry, whose driver spoke good English, so he had spoken to him, and she had had no need to reveal her particular talent. Whilst they were doing their traffic cop stuff on the lorry the driver and his mate started up quite an animated conversation in Italian, well within her earshot. Turned out they were discussing her various physical attributes, and the ways in which they might "entertain" her, given the opportunity. He said he almost felt sorry for these two burly blokes standing, head down and very red in the face as she tore them off a strip in fluent Italian. The gist of the conversation being dream on you perverts.


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## JimJay (22 Sep 2022)

stuart little said:


> Try reading a book (novel) written, say in pre WW1, & compare with present ones, to see how our language has changed - even disregarding the 'modern' verbs & pronouns now so common (in more ways than one!)


Some of us still speak, and write, in such a way. I've been told that I speak English "like Bulldog Drummond"; as he was one of my childhood heroes I took that as a compliment. 

I don't read much, if any, modern fiction in any language - I much prefer biography, travel and history, or the old English classics (including the now-farcically-named "N-word of the Narcissus"....FFS!) However, I don't so much resist change as simply ignore it; I'm pretty well up to date with "modern speak" and can use it when I choose to but I prefer to teach my students the kind of English they can use and be understood in any milieu (always bearing in mind that everyone also wants to learn "the naughty words").

I did read "Trainspotting" but just found it irritating and depressing: a bit of spud- and square-bashing would sort those idiots out, or finish them - either result would be acceptable in my view


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## JimJay (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> And you should always be aware that people may have unsuspected skills laguage wise. A friend of ours is a traffic cop. He tells a good story about doing weight checks on lorries on the motorway. On ghis occasion he was accompanied by a very attractive lady colleague. She often got involved on these occasions as she spoke a number of languages. They had pulled in an Italian lorry, whose driver spoke good English, so he had spoken to him, and she had had no need to reveal her particular talent. Whilst they were doing their traffic cop stuff on lorry the driver and his mate started up quite an animated conversation in Italian, well within her earshot. Turned out they were discussing her various physical attributes, and the ways in which they might "entertain" her, given the opportunity. He said he almost felt sorry for these two burly blokes standing, head down and very red in the face as she tore them off a strip in fluent Italian. The gist of the conversation being dream on you perverts.


I hope the drivers retorted with a "Is that a 'Yes' or a 'No'?"


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

On the subject of restaurants i recall going to a lovely italian restaurant in the New Forest, Lymington I think. My mum ordered a dish very heavily flavoured with Basil. I think its a bit of an Italian clssic, although I cant remember the name of it. Suffice to say the flavour is very strong, and not to everyones taste. The waiter was kind enough to ask whether she was aware of this. He was quite taken aback when she thanked him for his concern but assured him she was quite familiar with the dish, and as far as she was concerned the more Basil the better, all in fluent Italian. We went back ther a number of times over the years, and always got a very warm welcome.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> Some of us still speak, and write, in such a way. I've been told that I speak English "like Bulldog Drummond"; as he was one of my childhood heroes I took that as a compliment.
> 
> I don't read much, if any, modern fiction in any language - I much prefer biography, travel and history, or the old English classics (including the now-farcically-named "N-word of the Narcissus"....FFS!) However, I don't so much resist change as simply ignore it; I'm pretty well up to date with "modern speak" and can use it when I choose to but I prefer to teach my students the kind of English they can use and be understood in any milieu (always bearing in mind that everyone also wants to learn "the naughty words").
> 
> I did read "Trainspotting" but just found it irritating and depressing: a bit of spud- and square-bashing would sort those idiots out, or finish them - either result would be acceptable in my view


Thats a good point. Also reveals a lot about how other attitudes have changed. Novels from the early 20th century and earlier are frequently littered with casual racism, homophobia and anti semitism, all perfectly acceptable at one time.


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## Tris (22 Sep 2022)

The point about reading is well made, however we are facing a situation where children will be able to read well but have no understanding of the words they speak. The phonics system is very effective but unless efforts are made to complement it with comprehension exercises then children will be little more than trained parrots.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

I do find it quite depressing when you see statistics revealing how few young people now read books. I always have one with me and get through at least a couple every week. Have done this for as long as I can remember, and just can't really imagine not doing so.


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## JimJay (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Thats a good point. Also reveals a lot about how other attitudes have changed. Novels from the early 20th century and earlier are frequently littered with casual racism, homophobia and anti semitism, all perfectly acceptable at one time.


But one can still read them and let the "negative aspects" emulate the proverbial water off a duck's back. We can't judge past generations for what was perfectly acceptable at the time, not to mention that everything you cite still is regarded as acceptable in many parts of the world. Looking at it dispassionately, aren't we in the West in danger of forcing our view of how we should think, speak and behave onto other people and their culture, while simultaneously criticising Christian missionaries for essentially doing the same thing a couple of centuries ago?


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## Spectric (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I do find it quite depressing when you see statistics revealing how few young people now read books.


They are really missing out on so much, in their younger days fiction can stimulate creativity and later on non-fiction can greatly develope knowledge and even now with so much online I still value books because they deliver something I just don't get from the web.


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## Echo-Star (22 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> Can I offer you some advise…….


I read John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" when I was in my early 20's many many years past. Long before computers and the www. 

To me, it was more the lack off vowels in their Grammer in printed text, that I noticed. Rather than the American spoken dialogue, that the Ear cannot pick up on from Movies, CNN, TV Shows etc


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## treeturner123 (22 Sep 2022)

Re Latin, 

My brother when training to be a doctor found much of the technical language easy as he had learnt Latin. His future wife who was there at the same time hadn't and found things much harder.

Phil


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Sep 2022)

At one time you couldn't read medicine without O level Latin. It's certainly a help with understanding binomial plant and tree names.


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## Tris (22 Sep 2022)

But I'd still like to know which eejit got from _Mellitis mellisophyllum _to the common name 'b*stard balm'


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## Stan (22 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> ... I have to disabuse them of the notion that every English word is preceded by "f*cking"..




Lol.

I read that during the peninsular war in Spain (1808 - 14 ), one of the nicknames used by the French soldiers for the English was "les f*ckings".

Language certainly evolves. You only have to read the King James bible to see it. When I was a kid in primary school, this was the version used in assemblies. I really struggled with the phrase "suffer the little children to come unto me". I could not understand why Jesus wanted children to suffer. Now I know that the meaning was more like "permit" or "allow" rather than what we use it for today.


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## Valhalla (22 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> So, it gets on his wick, like.


if he likes it like he must like it


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## Valhalla (22 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> aren't we in the West in danger of forcing our view of how we should think, speak and behave


It's been going on in this country for years.....now you can't call a woman a woman - but a person who bleeds................FFS


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## Terry - Somerset (22 Sep 2022)

I had the pleasure of a very contemporary education. A technical school (for bright kids with practical tendencies) closely associated (same site) with the local polytechnic back in the pre-uni days where they actually taught technology.

Latin and Greek were precisely that - incomprehensible but was one of the first schools to offer computer science A level, along with metal work, woodwork, physics, chemistry, 3Rs.

When it came to the arts, they were sadly deficient. 

Teaching of both German and French naively assumed the student already had a knowledge of English grammar - but concepts like adverbs, past participles, pronouns etc were something of a mystery having never encountered the same in English classes. 

In similar vein I volunteered to learn piano. This was well before the days of electronic keyboards and headphones. Enthusiastic piano students were sat in front of a keyboard with none of the other components normally associated with a piano - hammers, strings, pedals, harp etc. 

I learned that middle C was to the right of the screw in the middle of the keyboard - in truth it made no difference as the only sound it made was "clack, clack clack, clack, clack, clack.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> ... concepts like adverbs, past participles, pronouns etc were something of a mystery having never encountered the same in English classes.


When my daughter was 4 or 5 years old we used to play a game if we were out in the car. I'd say something like look at that huge pothole, then say look or huge ....... and she'd come back with verb or adjective. It was one big game, she learned basic grammar quickly and easily. It's so much easier with very young children.


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## Fergie 307 (23 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> But one can still read them and let the "negative aspects" emulate the proverbial water off a duck's back. We can't judge past generations for what was perfectly acceptable at the time, not to mention that everything you cite still is regarded as acceptable in many parts of the world. Looking at it dispassionately, aren't we in the West in danger of forcing our view of how we should think, speak and behave onto other people and their culture, while simultaneously criticising Christian missionaries for essentially doing the same thing a couple of centuries ago?


Absolutely. Some of these old authors are very good. Doesnt detract from good writing or a decent plot.


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## Trainee neophyte (23 Sep 2022)

Might I recommend anything by Patrick Leigh Fermour for those with a hankering for vocabulary. If pressed, I would probably nominate Kipling's "Kim" as my favourite book, despite (or perhaps because of) claims of its rampant racism by those who have never read it. 

My mother complains about the need to pronounce every syllable in "ordinarily" and "temporarily"; when she was a gel three syllables were sufficient, but there was a war on at the time so economies had to be made.

Has anyone noticed the de-poshing of the Received Pronunciation? Compare her deceased majesty's cut glass accent to her grandsons' more estuarine oafishness, which they seem to have picked up in the army. Only the most diligently obtuse members of the elite keep their Etonian vowels on show these days - Jacob Rheese-Mog and Boris spring to mind as good examples . It might be a result of the Blair years forcing equalitè, egalitè etc, but I wasn't there so could be wrong.

I probably speak some bizarre, lost in time version of '90s English, given that I left the UK 25 years ago. Britain really is a foreign country for me these days.


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Britain really is a foreign country for me these days.


I live in the UK and it is a foreign country to me these days, it really has gone to pot over the last two decades.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Dionysios said:


> ......
> 
> As for your second post, I will totally agree with you about the fallen standards.


There have been complaints of falling standards from ancient times!


Dionysios said:


> Unfortunately the dismissal of reading as a way to learn, improve your language skills and broaden your mind, along with the intrusion of internet and social media has led to the creation of people who can barely speak and write correctly their native language.


Nonsense. The ""intrusion" of the internet has hugely increased the amount of time people spend writing and communicating, quite obviously. Ditto reading and the popular novel. And a good thing too!


Dionysios said:


> Even worse I'm afraid that after a while all these linguistic atrocities that we hear or read will be regarded as the correct use of the language.


That's how it's aways been. Oddly enough regional accents and dialects change less over time than so-called "received" pronunciation, which is obvious if you ever listen to BBC or regional voices from 50 or more years ago.


Dionysios said:


> P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name


Hi Di!


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Sep 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> if pressed, I would probably nominate Kipling's "Kim" as my favourite book ...


Ahhhh ........... O level English, along with Lord of the Flies.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Sep 2022)

An elderly chap made a point the other day about regional accents - he said it seems to be only the Liverpool accent that's got stronger over the years, others have weakened. His parents and grandparents were very working class, living in a poor area but didn't have accents anything like as strong as many younger people have now. 
Forty of fifty years ago it wasn't uncommon for me to meet people from 15 or 20 miles south west of here (nearly off the end) that I struggled to understand, but accents that strong are nearly gone now. It's not just the accents that disappear - a friend commented that the Cornish language is being protected, but the Cornish vernacular is disappearing.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Hi Di!


Hi Di Hi!


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## thetyreman (23 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> An elderly chap made a point the other day about regional accents - he said it seems to be only the Liverpool accent that's got stronger over the years, others have weakened. His parents and grandparents were very working class, living in a poor area but didn't have accents anything like as strong as many younger people have now.
> Forty of fifty years ago it wasn't uncommon for me to meet people from 15 or 20 miles south west of here (nearly off the end) that I struggled to understand, but accents that strong are nearly gone now. It's not just the accents that disappear - a friend commented that the Cornish language is being protected, but the Cornish vernacular is disappearing.


it's the same up north, a mancunian accent from 1910 was radically different to todays manc, which sounds absolutely horrible and nasally in comparison, my great aunt was born in 1900 and she would have learnt to speak from people who grew up in the 19th century, it was much softer sounding and she said some things I've still never heard anyone else say, mostly sayings that are long gone or out of fashion today, one of them was 'get out of it' and she also beat a scally once with her metal walking stick who tried to steal her purse lol


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## Fergie 307 (23 Sep 2022)

I find many regional accents delightful, even if they can be hard work. I used to work for a Scotsman with a very broad glaswegian accent, he also used various expressions and names for things that were incomprehensible to us poor southerners. He would often get my mate and I together to give us some job to do, only for us to stand in complete bewilderment because we could genuinely only understand about every third word. This used to make him very frustrated, which made the accent even worse. His wife also had a very broad accent but you could understand her, so she often had to effectively translate for him. On the other hand I worked with a young lady from South Shields who had the most delightful accent. I could have listened in rapture to her reading a shopping list!


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## Fergie 307 (23 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> it's the same up north, a mancunian accent from 1910 was radically different to todays manc, which sounds absolutely horrible and nasally in comparison, my great aunt was born in 1900 and she would have learnt to speak from people who grew up in the 19th century, it was much softer sounding and she said some things I've still never heard anyone else say, mostly sayings that are long gone or out of fashion today, one of them was 'get out of it' and she also beat a scally once with her metal walking stick who tried to steal her purse lol


it's very good when occasionally you get to hear a recording made many years ago of an interview with someone with a strong regional accent. I think it may have been radio four that did a series of these from the BBC archives a while ago. So sad that they appear to be dying out, or at least being diluted.


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## JimJay (24 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> There have been complaints of falling standards from ancient times!
> 
> Nonsense. The ""intrusion" of the internet has hugely increased the amount of time people spend writing and communicating, quite obviously. Ditto reading and the popular novel. And a good thing too!
> 
> ...


The arrival of the internet, and especially soshul meejah, may well have resulted in more time spent on "communication", but I fear that you're confusing quantity with quality...


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## Jacob (24 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> The arrival of the internet, and especially soshul meejah, may well have resulted in more time spent on "communication", but I fear that you're confusing quantity with quality...


Yes perhaps you are right and it would be better if people didn't try too hard to think, read, and write.
It could give them ideas above their station. No good will come of it.


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## Jacob (24 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> it's very good when occasionally you get to hear a recording made many years ago of an interview with someone with a strong regional accent. I think it may have been radio four that did a series of these from the BBC archives a while ago. So sad that they appear to be dying out, or at least being diluted.


Even more so with strong "received pronunciation". Regional accents tend to be slightly more stable.


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## selectortone (24 Sep 2022)

When I first moved down here to Dorset in the early 70s I worked on building sites in places like Sturminster Newton and Bridport for several years. The older guys had very strong Dorset accents, very Thomas Hardy, which I don't hear so much nowadays. There were lots of sayings I picked up on. Two of my favourites were:

In disbelief - "If that's true my pr*ick's a bloater"

And my favourite

Mistrust of strangers- "All the world's queer except me an thee, an I got my doubts about thee"


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## John Brown (24 Sep 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Might I recommend anything by Patrick Leigh Fermour for those with a hankering for vocabulary. If pressed, I would probably nominate Kipling's "Kim" as my favourite book, despite (or perhaps because of) claims of its rampant racism by those who have never read it.
> 
> My mother complains about the need to pronounce every syllable in "ordinarily" and "temporarily"; when she was a gel three syllables were sufficient, but there was a war on at the time so economies had to be made.
> 
> ...


I read "A time of gifts" a while back. Loved most of it, but found the last chapter a bit boring. Probably says more about me than him.


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## JimJay (24 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yes perhaps you are right and it would be better if people didn't try too hard to think, read, and write.
> It could give them ideas above their station. No good will come of it.


Where on earth did that bizarre interpretation come from? Have been down to t'Chip On Shoulder shop again?


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Sep 2022)

He owns it.


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## Jacob (24 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> Where on earth did that bizarre interpretation come from? Have been down to t'Chip On Shoulder shop again?


All very well being snobby about "soshul meejah" but you are indulging in it yourself! Pot calling the kettle!
All in all I think "soshul meejah" is a good thing and gives a voice to the otherwise unheard. More importantly it exposes them to alternative opinions which you won't find in the conservative MSM.


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## JimJay (24 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> All very well being snobby about "soshul meejah" but you are indulging in it yourself! Pot calling the kettle!
> All in all I think "soshul meejah" is a good thing and gives a voice to the otherwise unheard. More importantly it exposes them to alternative opinions which you won't find in the conservative MSM.


I also use public transport - does that preclude me from complaining about the idiots who p*ss in the carriages?

If you listen to most of what the "otherwise unheard" have to say and the dross they appear to believe, I'd say that being unheard stops them from making fools of themselves to a wider audience and does the rest of us a great favour. I'm all for the "right to free speech" but that includes my right to say what I think about what they say, and indeed yours to voice your thoughts on what I say - preferably without the chip, if that's possible, but with if it's really an integral part of your thought process.


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## Jacob (24 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> ...... I'm all for the "right to free speech" but that includes my right to say what I think about what they say, and indeed yours to voice your thoughts on what I say .....


Exactly.


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## Droogs (24 Sep 2022)

The amount of communications via digital means has indeed increased exponentially but the vocabulary has definitely shrunk


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## Yojevol (24 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> my mate and I


Here's an example of how our language is changing; irreversibly it would seem. I even heard P. William, sorry, P. of Wales (does that make him a POW?) get it wrong recently. In Fergie's case above his 'I' is the, or one of the, _objects_ of the sentence and should therefore be 'me'. I suspect Fergie used 'my mate and I' because he is aware that 'my mate and me' is usually used wrongly as the _subject_ of a sentence.
My English teacher at school (so the problem has been with us for a long time) advised 'if in doubt remove the other person and the correct use of I or ME will be obvious.
At least Fergie got the order right; most people would use 'me and my mate'. It's more polite to put yourself after the other party.
Brian


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## John Brown (24 Sep 2022)

Yojevol said:


> Here's an example of how our language is changing; irreversibly it would seem. I even heard P. William, sorry, P. of Wales (does that make him a POW?) get it wrong recently. In Fergie's case above his 'I' is the, or one of the, _objects_ of the sentence and should therefore be 'me'. I suspect Fergie used 'my mate and I' because he is aware that 'my mate and me' is usually used wrongly as the _subject_ of a sentence.
> My English teacher at school (so the problem has been with us for a long time) advised 'if in doubt remove the other person an the correct use of I or ME will be obvious.
> At least Fergie got the order right; most people would use 'me and my mate'. It's more polite to put yourself after the other party.
> Brian


Funnily enough, we were just explaining the "I" "me" thing to our eight year old granddaughter. It's a very common mistake.
One of my pet peeves is "exponentially", which seems to have lost pretty much all of its original meaning. If you have money in the bank, and they're paying you 0.0001% interest, that's an exponential increase in strict terms. More interesting is the talk of exponential decreases.


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## John Brown (24 Sep 2022)

Genuine question: I reckon I speak home counties English, not RP to be sure(I don't say "tepra cotta",for example), but not "estry" either, but I think I pronounce "social" and "soshul" the same way(although I don't think I say "meeja"). Am I missing some subtle nuance of accent?


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## Jacob (24 Sep 2022)

John Brown said:


> Genuine question: I reckon I speak home counties English, not RP to be sure(I don't say "tepra cotta",for example), but not "estry" either, but I think I pronounce "social" and "soshul" the same way(although I don't think I say "meeja"). Am I missing some subtle nuance of accent?


Wos "tepra cotta"? Some sorta cheese or summink?


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## Fergie 307 (24 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> I also use public transport - does that preclude me from complaining about the idiots who p*ss in the carriages?
> 
> If you listen to most of what the "otherwise unheard" have to say and the dross they appear to believe, I'd say that being unheard stops them from making fools of themselves to a wider audience and does the rest of us a great favour. I'm all for the "right to free speech" but that includes my right to say what I think about what they say, and indeed yours to voice your thoughts on what I say - preferably without the chip, if that's possible, but with if it's really an integral part of your thought process.


one of my all time favourites, " better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt", brilliant.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Sep 2022)

Yojevol said:


> Here's an example of how our language is changing; irreversibly it would seem. I even heard P. William, sorry, P. of Wales (does that make him a POW?) get it wrong recently. In Fergie's case above his 'I' is the, or one of the, _objects_ of the sentence and should therefore be 'me'. I suspect Fergie used 'my mate and I' because he is aware that 'my mate and me' is usually used wrongly as the _subject_ of a sentence.
> My English teacher at school (so the problem has been with us for a long time) advised 'if in doubt remove the other person an the correct use of I or ME will be obvious.
> At least Fergie got the order right; most people would use 'me and my mate'. It's more polite to put yourself after the other party.
> Brian


Suitably chastened. I will take my place in the corner


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## John Brown (24 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Wos "tepra cotta"? Some sorta cheese or summink?


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## Fergie 307 (24 Sep 2022)

Ah, I see. You had me too with that one


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## Jacob (24 Sep 2022)

Tape recorder! Right. I'd never have guessed!


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## John Brown (24 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Tape recorder! Right. I'd never have guessed!


That's because you're not posh, Jacob.


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## Fergie 307 (24 Sep 2022)

Me neitherr guv (tugging forelock)


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## Tris (25 Sep 2022)

And sex is what posh people get their coal in


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Sep 2022)

It's what Kiwis put their potatoes in.


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## Noel (25 Sep 2022)

It's when you have your evening meal.................


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## JimJay (25 Sep 2022)

John Brown said:


> Genuine question: I reckon I speak home counties English, not RP to be sure(I don't say "tepra cotta",for example), but not "estry" either, but I think I pronounce "social" and "soshul" the same way(although I don't think I say "meeja"). Am I missing some subtle nuance of accent?


No. The reference was more to the slurring and misspelling which are so prevalent these days. It'd perhaps be amusing if it were done deliberately, and sparingly, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case.....


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## Jacob (25 Sep 2022)

JimJay said:


> No. The reference was more to the slurring and misspelling which are so prevalent these days. It'd perhaps be amusing if it were done deliberately, and sparingly, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case.....


Better slurred and/or spelled badly, than not said at all. No reason to believe it's more prevalent today. 
We want to hear what people want to say and there's plenty of smart alecs around to assist by pointing out their spelling mistakes!


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## Jacob (25 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> It's when you have your evening meal.................


After or before?


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## Janner (25 Sep 2022)

Gents
Yes, our language is, indeed changing, whether it is changing or mutating does, I suppose, depending to a great degree, on your outlook.
I don't like the way it is becoming Americanised.

However . . . I feel I should point out that the 'English' we use today, is hardly a pure 'language' anyway, it's more of a Heinz 57.
Based in Latin, with French, German, Fleming, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian all thrown in for good measure, means English is a mish mash at best.

e.g. At a meal, in The Netherlands that I was hosting, there were 16 people and 10 nationalities, one being a young, very French, French lad.
I said, " As we say in England; bon appetit."
The French lad said; 'It's French."
"No" I said " It's English we stole it."

The great thing is that our language continues to grow and change with time.
It means our language is alive and well.

The French have rules and laws protecting their language . . .it is stagnant and will surely become a minority language, much like Esperanto.


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Better slurred and/or spelled badly, than not said at all. No reason to believe it's more prevalent today.
> We want to hear what people want to say and there's plenty of smart alecs around to assist by pointing out their spelling mistakes!


In fact social media could be revolutionary. Normal media since the invention of printing has been top down and still is. People read particular newspapers or watch particular TV progs, but there is little dialogue going back up, being returned, other than a few letters to the ed.
Results in an odd fact - it's quite likely that the person next to you picks up a completely different view of the world and is unlikely to be exchanging views with you or his neighbours unless they agree with him.
But social media is "horizontal" and we are all chattering along side by side. Somehow completing a triangle - up, down, and now also across. Talking directly to some of the great unwoke!
Politically it forms a massive countervailing force to news controlled regimes and e.g. is probably playing a big part in current Russian developments. The days of the hidden radio receiver in a forest are long gone - almost everybody has a mobile phone and internet access.
A bit of bad grammar and poor spelling is an indication that more people are discovering how to communicate, and should be welcomed!


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## thetyreman (27 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> In fact social media could be revolutionary. Normal media since the invention of printing has been top down and still is. People read particular newspapers or watch particular TV progs, but there is little dialogue going back up, being returned, other than a few letters to the ed.
> Results in an odd fact - it's quite likely that the person next to you picks up a completely different view of the world and is unlikely to be exchanging views with you or his neighbours unless they agree with him.
> But social media is "horizontal" and we are all chattering along side by side. Somehow completing a triangle - up, down, and now also across. Talking directly to some of the great unwoke!
> Politically it forms a massive countervailing force to news controlled regimes and e.g. is probably playing a big part in current Russian developments. The days of the hidden radio receiver in a forest are long gone - almost everybody has a mobile phone and internet access.
> A bit of bad grammar and poor spelling is an indication that more people are discovering how to communicate, and should be welcomed!



it's not that different to the big media companies actually, facebook and zuckerberg regularly shadowban users and block messages or limit what can be seen, it all goes on in the background though, organic growth via social media is currently completely dead, you have to pay money to get any exposure, they control everything and are responsible for the rise in right wing governments, they can't be held accountable by any government and are currently above the law, the entire social media experiment is a big mess.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> A bit of bad grammar and poor spelling is an indication that more people are discovering how to communicate, and should be welcomed!


Ah ............ so if you wish to communicate, illiteracy is good? Who'd have thought?


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Ah ............ so if you wish to communicate, illiteracy is good? Who'd have thought?


It's better than not communicating at all.


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## Jacob (28 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> it's not that different to the big media companies actually, facebook and zuckerberg regularly shadowban users and block messages or limit what can be seen, it all goes on in the background though, organic growth via social media is currently completely dead, you have to pay money to get any exposure, they control everything and are responsible for the rise in right wing governments, they can't be held accountable by any government and are currently above the law, the entire social media experiment is a big mess.


Big mess yes but so is main stream media - you only have to think of the Daily Mail; 100+ years of lies, malevolence, misanthropy, xenophobia!
But the big plus with social media is that you can't set up a system which makes money out of people communicating unless you allow them to communicate.


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