# Experimenting with the Grimsdale method



## sdbranam (26 Apr 2010)

Ok, I've read the back-and-forth here on sharpening techniques, so at the risk of igniting a flame war :shock:, here's a 2-part blog post on giving Mr. Grimsdale's method a try, including a video at the end of part 2.

http://www.closegrain.com/2010/04/grimsdale-method.html

I offer this in the spirit of learning and expanding my skills. Now I'll duck and cover!


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## Jake (26 Apr 2010)

OMG you so BANNED.


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## Shrubby (26 Apr 2010)

Steve
He's not the Messiah,He's a very naughty boy !


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## MickCheese (26 Apr 2010)

I liked the video, very informative.

Mick


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## bugbear (26 Apr 2010)

sdbranam":cgh4ib0m said:


> Ok, I've read the back-and-forth here on sharpening techniques, so at the risk of igniting a flame war :shock:, here's a 2-part blog post on giving Mr. Grimsdale's method a try, including a video at the end of part 2.
> 
> http://www.closegrain.com/2010/04/grimsdale-method.html
> 
> I offer this in the spirit of learning and expanding my skills. Now I'll duck and cover!



Hmm. Haven't read Grim's write up for a while. It appears to be evolving into good ol' double bevel.


grim":cgh4ib0m said:


> 1. If you already have an edge in good order which just needs a bit of honing:
> 
> Start on the _*fine*_ side of the stone, well charged with oil at all times.
> The chisel or plane blade is worked energetically up and down on the oiled stone, being held so that as near as possible it doesn't exceed *30 degrees*.
> ...



BugBear


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## SBJ (26 Apr 2010)

SDBranam - Nice articles, though you may want to post them on wwuk as it seams that Jacob isn't able to post here any longer and I'm sure he would apprectiate seeing it.


I would be interested to hear what your thoughts are after using the system for a while.



BugBear- I think it always has been, it's not the angles that are different, it's the technique to achieve them. Unfortunately, some people have been more interested in rubbishing Jacob than listening to him.


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## Paul Chapman (26 Apr 2010)

Hi Steve,

I watched your video. I was surprised that you use the strop in your hand rather than on a flat surface. Using it the way you do would surely tend to dull the edge :? 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## sdbranam (26 Apr 2010)

SBJ, thanks for the reminder, I've cross-posted.

Paul, I based stropping on a hand-held piece of leather on the video here: http://furnituremakersapprentice.net/sharpening.html. And anecdotally, the old timers supposedly used to strop on their calloused palms, though I'm not sure how reliable that information is!

However, this article http://antiquetools.com/sharp/sharpstropping.html at Tools For Working Wood/Woodworking Museum clearly shows stropping on the flat.

I'm interested in hearing opinions on the details of either method. These are the two best demonstrations and descriptions I've seen of stropping (most books and articles just say "strop the edge"), and of course, they are completely opposite in approach!


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## ByronBlack (27 Apr 2010)

Steve, good write up, this is very similar to a method taught to me by Bruce Luckhurst, but we didn't make a consertive effort in making the convex round over, instead we held the iron at the desired angle and rocked back and fourth maintaining the angle, this produced excellent results. I'm not sure I understand the benefit of the convexing aspect, and I fear for the tips of your fingers with the speed you go at!  but I really enjoyed the video.

Out of interest, why the change from diamond stones to oil stones? Wouldn't grims method work equally well on the dmt's?


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## sdbranam (27 Apr 2010)

Byron, my interpretation is that it's not so much a matter of specifically trying to get a convex bevel, it's more a matter of not obsessing so much over a flat bevel. Don't need laser-guided GPS-enabled jigs. Just let it fly. The convex bevel is then the logical consequence. Rather than fearing the curve, embrace it.

The one definite issue with a flat bevel is that it has to be repeatable. Once you've carefully gotten a 30 degree bevel on there, if the next time you hone it you only get to 29.9, you may not actually be resharpening it. Or you end up having to take off a lot more metal. That was definitely one of my complaints with using a jig. I found all that fussing about annoying and unnecessarily time-consuming. I wanted to get back to working the wood.

And I'm sure blood is an effective honing medium  (I _am_ up to date on my tetanus shot).

This method did indeed work equally well on DMTs. I have a couple of reasons for not using them. 

One is that I'm trying to get my hand tool skills down to bare essentials. My particular obsession is to be able to work the way someone in the 1800's did; I admire that versatility and self-reliance. As a hobbyist I'm clearly romanticizing that aspect a bit, because some of these tasks done hour after hour, day after day would be crippling labor. Hand-ripping a rough 8' plank is fun; hand-ripping 1000 of them will kill you. But the India stones appeal more to my desire for traditional methods than the DMTs. Norton probably uses laser-guided GPS-enabled robotic cutters to produce them!

Second, when people ask me how to do stuff, instead of telling them to go spend $250 on high-tech sharpening stones (and watch their eyes pop out of their heads), I can honestly offer them a reasonable alternative that only costs half as much (less popping). I realize it's an investment, but it's possible to buy in at different levels.


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## Vann (27 Apr 2010)

sdbranam":16etz2in said:


> And anecdotally, the old timers supposedly used to strop on their calloused palms, though I'm not sure how reliable that information is!


 I was taught to strop an edge on my palm and I still do it every time (it's about the only handtool skill I have retained after 30 years out of the trade  ). I've never cut myself either (that I recall).

However, this is done without any honing compound, rather it's purpose was said to be to remove any feather edge still clinging to the cutting edge after sharpening.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Modernist (27 Apr 2010)

Vann":z1078gbh said:


> sdbranam":z1078gbh said:
> 
> 
> > And anecdotally, the old timers supposedly used to strop on their calloused palms, though I'm not sure how reliable that information is!
> ...



I agree with that, and the reasoning, but take the slightly safer route of using Levis


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## grahamar (27 Apr 2010)

Thanks for the information and video. 
I found it very interesting and appreciate the time/effort in sharing it.

I currently don't have the Arkansas Hard Stone ( the grey/gray stone) you used at the end. I stop at the Norton Fine stone.

I was wondering what affect honing on the Hard stone has compared to just finishing on the Norton Fine stone ?

Thanks

Graham


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## dannykaye (27 Apr 2010)

sdbranam":29s7kiyk said:


> SBJ, thanks for the reminder, I've cross-posted.
> 
> Paul, I based stropping on a hand-held piece of leather on the video here: http://furnituremakersapprentice.net/sharpening.html. And anecdotally, the old timers supposedly used to strop on their calloused palms, though I'm not sure how reliable that information is!



In school in the 70's I was taught to strop on my hand to remove the burr...


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## woodbloke (27 Apr 2010)

dannykaye":1hlxws0k said:


> sdbranam":1hlxws0k said:
> 
> 
> > SBJ, thanks for the reminder, I've cross-posted.
> ...


 
In Jeremy Broun's DVD about Alan Peters, he's shown stropping a plane iron on his hand. Something I've never done and wouldn't recommend either as a leather strop glued to a bit of mdf has got to be the cheapest method of refining an edge and probably much safer to boot - Rob


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## dannykaye (27 Apr 2010)

I've never cut myself that way in about 40 years, if that is dangerous enough to stop people doing it how does anyone ever use a table saw?


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## bugbear (27 Apr 2010)

SBJ":1dejjoe0 said:


> BugBear- I think it always has been, it's not the angles that are different, it's the technique to achieve them. Unfortunately, some people have been more interested in rubbishing Jacob than listening to him.



The rubbishing is well earned, IMHO.

There is no benefit, when aiming for a (e.g.) 30 degree bevel doing strokes (or part of strokes) at any angle other than 30.

BugBear


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## andy king (27 Apr 2010)

At the risk of causing a punch up, I would say its a long drawn out method from the video.
Also, more contentiously, the chisel especially isn't what I would term sharp judging by the effort needed to try and get it to cut on the piece of cherry.
Just IMHO of course.

cheers,
Andy


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## head clansman (27 Apr 2010)

hi all 


If i were to sharpen a plane blade or chisel using to old oil stone method i would as i was taught to during my apprenticeship strop the blades in my hand to remove any wire edge ,till i started using the scary method now i use nothing else. I use a veritas jig to get the angles i want, I get the exact angle that i want ever time with a highly polish razor edge and to use the palm of my hand to strop, no way. :roll: hc


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## Philly (27 Apr 2010)

Steve
Have you tried hollow grinding your irons? Freehand sharpening then takes seconds, regardless of the stones used. And I'm sure the old boys used to grind their blades on big water cooled wheels, so its a time tested method?
Cheers
Philly


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## bugbear (27 Apr 2010)

Philly":mrhs6wtu said:


> Steve
> Have you tried hollow grinding your irons? Freehand sharpening then takes seconds, regardless of the stones used. And I'm sure the old boys used to grind their blades on big water cooled wheels, so its a time tested method?
> Cheers
> Philly



Since their grind wheels were big, I suspect their bevels were more flat than hollow.

If I'm using this page correctly:

http://www.atmpage.org/contrib/Prewitt/sagitta/

A 300mm wheel (Radius of curvature) and a 8mm long bevel (diameter of mirror) gives a 0.02mm sagitta.

So the bevel is only hollow by 2 hundreths of a mm.

BugBear


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## Philly (27 Apr 2010)

Ahh...so you really need flat stones for that. Oops, did I just open another can of worms.....? :lol: 
Philly


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## Paul Chapman (27 Apr 2010)

sdbranam":3qodjvkp said:


> I'm interested in hearing opinions on the details of either method. These are the two best demonstrations and descriptions I've seen of stropping (most books and articles just say "strop the edge"), and of course, they are completely opposite in approach!



In my experience, if you don't keep the blade dead flat on the strop you will dull the edge - the blade might have a nice shine but it won't be as sharp as it could be.

I use a piece of leather glued to MDF







I use a little Vaseline and jewellers rouge on it. I always use a honing guide and keep the blade in the guide as I draw the bevel across the leather a few times. Then remove the blade and holding it dead flat on the strop, draw it backwards a few times. If you try it that way, I'm sure you will find that your blades are much sharper  

In effect, the strop is just another honing medium just like your stones, so it makes sense to treat it as such IMHO.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Modernist (27 Apr 2010)

I'm sure you are getting excellent results Paul but I think any strop with a soft(ish) surface tends to curve around the edge under pressure. I'm not suggesting it dulls the edge, it probably only removes a slight burr.

I still think that a Tormek, which produces microscopic hollowing of the edge, followed by fine waterstones and some minor stropping produces a fine edge quickly. I'm sure round bevelling works but it is too dependent on the skill of the operator to maintain the angle and I don't think it is as sharp as the above.


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## Paul Chapman (27 Apr 2010)

Modernist":ivxiwm3g said:


> I'm sure round bevelling works



I'm sure it doesn't  When we were discussing Jacob's round bevel method a long time ago I thought I'd try an experiment. I had bought several second-hand pig sticker chisels and these all had rounded bevels, just as Jacob advocates. I tried chopping a mortice with one and also with a normally honed pig sticker chisel with a flat bevel. I found that the curved bevel pushed the chisel off line and made it harder to drive the chisel into the wood.

Not worth the bother IMHO.......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## sdbranam (28 Apr 2010)

Well, all this has generated some excellent discussion on how to strop. I'll have to give some of these tips a try.

Of course, that also means everyone's backed into their separate corners where they say across the room to each other, "Yer crazy, mate!"  

And if Andy thinks the chisel could be sharper, then I'll have to give it another go. Part of the problem is that I don't have a good reference to know how good an edge can be achieved. I was able to pare down to a line just like shooting it on the shooting board, so that seemed pretty good. When is it good enough? When is it not? I've seen plenty of books and videos, but never actually laid hands on one sharpened by someone who was really good at it so I could feel it in action. What I think may feel pretty smooth someone else may think is laughably dull.

Everybody has their preferences based on their experience; I don't yet have that experience to judge by.

I can definitely say this has made another step up in the sharpness I get. Making the commitment to invest in the DMTs and jig was the first step, getting my planes to at least be usable. And with effort, I could return them to that state after they got dull. Sandpaper on glass freehand was the next step. That was faster (mostly because of less fidgeting around with the jig) and I got a better edge. This is faster yet, and an even better edge. I can feel the difference planing quatersawn white oak. Maybe better stropping will be the next step. It's all a learning experience.

Cheers!


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## sdbranam (28 Apr 2010)

And the results are in: Paul's Vaseline and rouge strop does indeed work as he predicted. I had to dig around the basement for a while, but I knew I had a stick of red rouge somewhere.

I tried it on four chisels that I had considered sharp already. In each case, before stropping they could take a few hairs off my arm and leg. After, they took a clean sweep of all the hairs. I'd post photos, but I wouldn't want to make the ladies on the forum swoon. :wink: 

I'll make a better strop, but for the moment I just clamped a piece of leather to the bench. I spread around a couple pea-size gobs of Vaseline, then liberally scribbled on it with the rouge stick.

I did it free-hand, careful not to exceed the final cutting edge angle on the bevel side as I drew it back 5-10 times, and dead flat on the face side. I tried a few variations of pressure. Moderate pressure seemed to do the trick. Light pressure seemed ineffective, and I didn't want to try too much pressure.

So perhaps a haphazard attempt, but positive results. Another step to add to the recipe, and just as easy as the other steps.

One question, the rouge was part of a Craftsman buffing compound pack that included a white rouge stick. The package says the white is for hard ferrous metals, and the red for silver, gold, and other precious metals. Any opinions on one vs. the other in this application?


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## bugbear (28 Apr 2010)

sdbranam":2vo94138 said:


> Sandpaper on glass freehand was the next step. That was faster (mostly because of less fidgeting around with the jig) and I got a better edge.



Do you mean getting the blade into the jig is time consuming, or using the jig?

If the former, I would suggest that (especially for plane blades) the time taken is a small (and practically negligable) proportion of the overall time of removing the blade, removing the cap-iron, (jig) working through the grits, blade cleaning, replacing and adjusting cap-iron, replacing iron, adjusting iron.

If the latter, I find that the ability the jig gives me to reliably target a tiny secondary bevel of 1-2mm conducive to rapid honing.

(if both, see previous answers  )

When the secondary bevel gets big enough that honing on fine stones takes any time at all, waste metal on the primary bevel can be simply hacked off in bulk using a grinder or super-coarse stone (I use 60 grit AlZi sander belts - they cut tool steel like butter).

I find Eclipse jig + depth gauge = speed + sharpness.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (28 Apr 2010)

Paul Chapman":10mwt1q0 said:


> In my experience, if you don't keep the blade dead flat on the strop you will dull the edge - the blade might have a nice shine but it won't be as sharp as it could be.
> 
> I use a piece of leather glued to MDF
> 
> ...


Paul is spot on here and this is the way I used to strop as well. However since I've transferred my allegiance  to chisels from t'Orient which ideally (although a secondary micro bevel can be honed if needed) require a true, dead flat _single_ bevel I don't need to use the strop at all. The dead flat single bevel is easy to achieve on a good honing guide and I use a selection of 3M papers to hone both the bevel and back - Rob


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## Boz62 (28 Apr 2010)

Another thing to remember is that some of us don't spend as much time in the workshop as we'd like, sometimes with long gaps between sessions. A jig makes the process easily repeatable, whereas relying on "muscle memory" and experience would fail due to lack of repetition .

Boz


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## Paul Chapman (28 Apr 2010)

sdbranam":3b6q2k9u said:


> One question, the rouge was part of a Craftsman buffing compound pack that included a white rouge stick. The package says the white is for hard ferrous metals, and the red for silver, gold, and other precious metals. Any opinions on one vs. the other in this application?



Pleased to see that it worked  

Jewellers rouge is the finest of the various honing compounds, so should give the sharpest results.

You will find that the base compound in the various honing sticks varies. Some of them are affected by temperature and in cold winters in unheated workshops they are hard to apply. I find that the base compound used in jewellers rouge stays soft in all temperatures, so is easier to use all year round.

You will find that you don't need to re-apply the Vaseline very often - just occasionally to keep the leather soft.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (28 Apr 2010)

Boz62":1rfws50k said:


> Another thing to remember is that some of us don't spend as much time in the workshop as we'd like, sometimes with long gaps between sessions. A jig makes the process easily repeatable, whereas relying on "muscle memory" and experience would fail due to lack of repetition .
> 
> Boz


This is one of the advantages of using a jig, the fact that you can pick up exactly the same angle each time. It may not be exactly 30deg (say) but may be a tad over or under, so if you can guarantee that your honing angle is the same each time through using a guide, you'll end up with a sharp edge.
Although I can hone freehand, making an accurate, dead flat, repeatable single bevel each time would be almost impossible (for me at least) without recourse to an accurate guide - Rob


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## bugbear (28 Apr 2010)

Boz62":35hcwtua said:


> Another thing to remember is that some of us don't spend as much time in the workshop as we'd like, sometimes with long gaps between sessions. A jig makes the process easily repeatable, whereas relying on "muscle memory" and experience would fail due to lack of repetition .
> 
> Boz



I've pretty much forced my (free) saw sharpening services onto work colleagues, just to keep my hand in.

BugBear


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## sdbranam (2 May 2010)

I've posted a follow up blog page based on the discussion of stropping:

http://www.closegrain.com/2010/05/grimsdale-method-part-3.html


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