# Green belt land and planning permission



## doctor Bob (24 Nov 2014)

Anyone ever been successful at getting planning permission on green belt land.
If so, how?


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## wizard (24 Nov 2014)

Either work in the planning office or give them a large bribe


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## paulm (24 Nov 2014)

Would it be for a single dwelling or a larger development ?

Cheers, Paul


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## RogerS (24 Nov 2014)

paulm":3iy1qo94 said:


> Would it be for a single dwelling or a larger development ?
> 
> Cheers, Paul




I hope not http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/ ... 276470.ece


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## doctor Bob (24 Nov 2014)

paulm":3n9f7238 said:


> Would it be for a single dwelling or a larger development ?
> 
> Cheers, Paul



single probably


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## John15 (24 Nov 2014)

I think farmers can build a dwelling on green belt for themselves if one is not available. It's certainly the case in our village.

John


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## DiscoStu (24 Nov 2014)

I looked into this a few years ago and you can write to the council and get a letter of intent. Which basically will give you an idea of what the council will think. 

I wrote to the council and it took them 6 months to write back and say i had no hope of obtaining planning. Your best option is probably to go for a brownfield site. 

I find it frustrating that people want to build a house for themselves and can't yet when i fly over the UK all you can see is green field after green field. I'm not saying concrete the lot, but I can't help that people building their own houses on small plots is hardly going to devastate the countryside


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## paulm (24 Nov 2014)

Worth googling for Planning Consultants in your area and having a chat with a couple in the first instance.

Probably a slim to no chance of getting permission but context is everything, including the Local Development Plan areas designated for future development, adjacent development/precedents etc.

They will be able to tell you if it is a non-starter or may be a possibility, but in the latter case press them to give you an indication of probability of success and likely budget, keeping in mind that if you do ask them to take on the work involved then they will get paid whether ultimately successful or not !

Cheers, Paul


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Nov 2014)

John15":k2xa3mof said:


> I think farmers can build a dwelling on green belt for themselves if one is not available. It's certainly the case in our village.
> 
> John


I think you'll find that the house ownership and occupation will be tied to a working farm. (At least it used to be but as Wiz said it probably depends more on the bribe.)


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## ChrisR (24 Nov 2014)

It just depends on, if your face fits or not, or if you know somebody that knows somebody, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

My face did not fit, I did not know anybody and my pockets were not deep enough. :evil: ](*,) 

Best of luck, you most certainly need it.

Chris R.


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## Sheffield Tony (24 Nov 2014)

DiscoStu":244grz3g said:


> I find it frustrating that people want to build a house for themselves and can't yet when i fly over the UK all you can see is green field after green field. I'm not saying concrete the lot, but I can't help that people building their own houses on small plots is hardly going to devastate the countryside



I recall John Prescott saying that the UK was not overdeveloped because 92% of it was not yet built on. Neglecting that those rolling fields are where the food comes from.

The personal circumstances of an applicant are not (supposed) to be a planning consideration. Either a site is suitable for development, or it is not. How would you let people build their own houses on small plots without letting the developers get in ? Large fields can be split into small plots. Would you have to legislate on how long the builder of a house would be required to live there, so as to prevent serial building of their next "own house" ? How about a scheme where the builder does some kind of fiddle where you technically buy the land as a separate deal direct from the previous owner, then the builder builds your own house on your own land for you ?


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## DiscoStu (24 Nov 2014)

Surely a simple answer would be that only the individual that built the house could live in it for 5 years or something like that. I have a lot of farmers in my family so I am very aware of land being used for farming. But guess what people need place to live as well. I'd just like to see planning a little more relaxed. Some of my family have a farm and want to convert some run down barns I to holiday cottages - no chance of getting permission, yet the council are happy to have run down barns? How would converting them cause any damage to the environment?


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## RogerS (24 Nov 2014)

DiscoStu":36wj29ov said:


> .... but I can't help that people building their own houses on small plots is hardly going to devastate the countryside



Not sure I agree with that. Especially as there are all those brownfield sites available according to the article I referenced.


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## doctor Bob (24 Nov 2014)

I'm buying some greenfield land, I think I like the idea of being able to shout "ger orf my laund", :lol: it's a nice size, I'll ask more once I have it. No point on speculating about it until it's a deffo.


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## gregmcateer (24 Nov 2014)

Yowser, Bob, this one could run and run.
Could make a sharpening thread look like a pacifists' tea party :lol:


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## woodpig (24 Nov 2014)

There was a programme on TV a little while back concerning a tenant Farmer who lost his farm when a developer was given permission to build a housing estate on it. Naturally the Farmer was upset but he did say it was prime farmland.
Building on "greenfield" sites may be bad in many folks eyes but building on prime farmland currently in use should be illegal IMO.


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## DiscoStu (24 Nov 2014)

Well having looked seriously for land to build a family home on, I can happily say that there isn't loads of land (especially brownfield) and what there is gets snapped up by developers. Not sure what the figures are but we are constantly being told that there isn't enough homes for people. 
I also remember reading. About a guy who had bought a plot and had gone quite a long way down the planning process when he was asked to donate to a local school development. He was advised that a £8000 donation would be welcome. He wrote to a self build magazine for advice, there advice was to pay it if he wanted planning permission! 

He didn't have children.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Nov 2014)

No, but the people he eventually sold the house to might have had twenty.


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## wizard (24 Nov 2014)

buy a building plot simples


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## powertools (24 Nov 2014)

DiscoStu":1t1xof08 said:


> Well having looked seriously for land to build a family home on, I can happily say that there isn't loads of land (especially brownfield) and what there is gets snapped up by developers. Not sure what the figures are but we are constantly being told that there isn't enough homes for people.
> I also remember reading. About a guy who had bought a plot and had gone quite a long way down the planning process when he was asked to donate to a local school development. He was advised that a £8000 donation would be welcome. He wrote to a self build magazine for advice, there advice was to pay it if he wanted planning permission!
> 
> He didn't have children.




That payment is called a section 106 payment and is not voluntary, having just got planning permission to build a house in our large garden we have got to pay the council £12000 before we can start work.


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## RobinBHM (24 Nov 2014)

Local Aurthorities have introduced the Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL), which applies to development so of 100m2 or above. Around here this has stopped some developments going ahead as the cost can work out at £30k -£40k (the price per sqm varies). 

It is very very difficult to obtain any form of planning consent on green belt. Land which has the opportunity for development usually gets into the hands of developers before it appears on the open market. 

I think it is a shame that development seem to continue in villages and towns so it seems every gap suddenly springs a new property. I can't help thinking that if there is a housing shortage then green belt will need to be developed at some stage. I cant see though how to resolve the problem that some lucky landowner would then gain a fortune through having his agricultural land becoming designated for development. Of course NIMBYs always appear at the first hint of a new development on green belt (which is understandble), solving any housing is always going to be controversial.


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## doctor Bob (24 Nov 2014)

The field is unfarmable due to location and access so it been rough grassland for many years.


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## kostello (24 Nov 2014)

What you need to do is plant a load of trees and then say that you need to live on site to care for them.....


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## wizard (24 Nov 2014)

Waste land no chance there has to be waste land set aside for wildlife.


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## kostello (24 Nov 2014)

He needs to live on site to protect the wildlife.....


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## RogerS (24 Nov 2014)

kostello":3b4o3ps7 said:


> He needs to live on site to protect the wildlife.....



No, wildlife is perfectly capable of looking after itself without man ******* it up!


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## doctor Bob (24 Nov 2014)

A unique, advanced design of essential importance is required. Drawings on a fag packet please.


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## n0legs (24 Nov 2014)

doctor Bob":3hpbgot3 said:


> The field is unfarmable due to location and access so it been rough grassland for many years.



If the access to the site is difficult how would you access it to build then live there ? I ask because when I built my house the planners insisted that I showed where my intended access was in relation to the road also that I had at least one parking space for each bedroom and another space for visitors. 
Good luck though Dr B, to be honest I'd walk away from a greenbelt site, there seems to be too many complications involved in an already complicated matter.


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## Harbo (24 Nov 2014)

There was a Grand Design programme recently where somebody built a very "green" house in the Green Belt.
It had to comply with Section ?? With very strict construction and usage criteria. Had to score over 95?? to be allowed to live in it - if not achieved it had to be left empty!
They actually just managed it.


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## n0legs (24 Nov 2014)

Harbo":pg9vkexg said:


> There was a Grand Design programme recently where somebody built a very "green" house in the Green Belt.
> It had to comply with Section ?? With very strict construction and usage criteria. Had to score over 95?? to be allowed to live in it - if not achieved it had to be left empty!
> They actually just managed it.



Yea I saw that, very strict criteria to adhere to.
Quite liked it to be honest.


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## Mannyroad (24 Nov 2014)

wizard":3ceqbaks said:


> buy a building plot simples



=D> =D>


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## doctor Bob (24 Nov 2014)

wizard":3eazpuqi said:


> buy a building plot simples



No I like a challenge and I also like the idea of a 5 acre garden eventually.


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## wizard (25 Nov 2014)

The only way you will find out is to ask the planning office. Also if you know the post code you can check online if any planning has been turned down.


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## paulm (25 Nov 2014)

wizard":1y5ez9pg said:


> The only way you will find out is to ask the planning office. Also if you know the post code you can check online if any planning has been turned down.



That won't achieve anything. Discussing with a couple of planning consultants will be of more use.

Cheers, Paul


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## RogerS (25 Nov 2014)

Sorry Paul but I don't agree with you. I'd go to a local planning clinic first and then see what they say before going down the planning consultant route.


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## wizard (25 Nov 2014)

And as i said check online it’s free. Is the land for sale? Or is this just a dream


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## paulm (25 Nov 2014)

RogerS":ihj7ayyy said:


> Sorry Paul but I don't agree with you. I'd go to a local planning clinic first and then see what they say before going down the planning consultant route.



Hi Roger, my own experience is that planning departments are generally pre-programmed to be negative, or at best non-committal, on anything except the most straightforward and simple matters, they will quote you all the applicable policies and guidelines and then interpret them as to why they think they are unlikely to support an application, or give you a neutral/non-committal answer that leaves you none the wiser. 

They will take 3 to 6 months to do this and charge several hundred pounds while stating at the end of it that they reserve the right to change their minds and decide something completely different if you choose to try and rely on their advice/opinion and spend £000's and another six to nine months on a subsequent actual application !

A planning consultant would know all the applicable policies and guidelines and how to interpret them and give guidance on whether you are likely to be able to achieve anything, what it is that you are likely to be able to achieve (if anything), and how to go about giving yourself the best chance of success.

Planning departments are in my experience generally reactive and negative while the consultants work for you and are proactive in their approach to finding solutions and ways forward. Chalk and cheese.

Having recently secured permission for back garden development after a couple of years of multiple planning applications I speak from some experience, but it may be others have had better experiences with other planning departments !  

Cheers, Paul


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## DTR (25 Nov 2014)

Interesting thread. The borough where I live is full of brownfield sites sitting empty. Yet at the end of my road there's a greenfield site that's having 380 homes built on it. The access is opposite a school on what is almost a country lane. The local council rejected the planning application, but it was appealed and eventually escallated up to Eric Pickles, and the fat **** approved it. So I guess if you want to a build a single house for your family you can't, but if you're Barretts you can do whatever you like :roll:


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## RogerS (25 Nov 2014)

Paul, I agree with you re there starting position. However as far as costs go then I guess it depends on local councils as Herefordshire run free planning and building control clinics. So the first pass is zero cost.


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## doctor Bob (25 Nov 2014)

wizard":375do2p5 said:


> Is the land for sale? Or is this just a dream



Hopefully not a dream, negotiations are ongoing.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2014)

RogerS":1mbfw7oj said:


> Sorry Paul but I don't agree with you. I'd go to a local planning clinic first and then see what they say before going down the planning consultant route.


Down here at least you have to pay for an outline planning application - they'll tell you nothing. I went through this less than a couple of years ago with a plot that belongs to my bil. It used to be that they'd give you the lowdown first, but that doesn't make them money.


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## whiskywill (25 Nov 2014)

I know of a large house built in a large field in what I am fairly sure is a Green Belt area. They have a few polytunnels on site and open to the public for up to six weeks a year in the summer to sell bedding plants. I say up to six weeks because they have been known to sell out in three weeks and I know they buy in the plants because I have seen the labels on the plants. 

I guess they have some kind of agricultural/horticultural condition attached to their permission.


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## kdampney (25 Nov 2014)

I've been thinking of self-build at some point in the future, and the guides I've read about plots and planning basically say: don't buy a plot/field unless you have at least Outline Planning Permission. Anything else is a gamble. As is often quoted, only 6-10% of land in England is developed, so the chances of a particular field getting zoned for development within your lifetime are slim at best. Our local council offers pre-application advice, which I think is free, and would indicate whether they will dismiss applications out of hand.

Check your local council's Core Strategy (our local county's one says that anything outside of existing village boundaries are a no-go - though that doesn't explain the estates of 30+ houses that occasionally pop up, as DTR mentioned above).

This may be helpful: http://www.self-build.co.uk/buying-right-plot


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## RogerS (25 Nov 2014)

kdampney":muhtcj80 said:


> ..... so the chances of a particular field getting zoned for development within your lifetime are slim at best......[/url]



Don't you believe it. Worcestershire County Council and also Herefordshire CC are both letting fields be built on as if there is no tomorrow. And they have loads of brownfield sites. In a nearby village there are plans for 80 houses to be built. This on a field adjacent to a single track road. Go figure. Water pressure is already poor. Sewage full to bursting. No local amenities. Hardly any bus service to speak of and the primary school is full. Oh, and the local telephone exchange aka small box by the side of the road has no spare lines. But hey...when did commonsense come into the equation?

Did I mention brownfield sites? Well, take a look at the size of this one. 





Hereford Racecourse went bust. Prime building land. Compulsory purchase, i say.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2014)

Roger, we've got that in our area - inadequate sewerage, storm drains, water mains, roads, schools, hospitals and so on. They've given permission for a new road which effectively goes from nowhere to nowhere with 7,800 houses on it. From what's completed in the area so far, they are little more than human battery houses.


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## kdampney (25 Nov 2014)

We've got 4,600 homes going on fields near where I work - the roads are already horrendous. :|



RogerS":na6a10k8 said:


> kdampney":na6a10k8 said:
> 
> 
> > ..... so the chances of a particular field getting zoned for development within your lifetime are slim at best......[/url]
> ...



I was meaning that building a single house on a random field in the middle of the countryside is very unlikely to get planning, unless consultants are involved. But when councils are compelled to build X thousand homes per year, you can understand them pointing to an empty spot on the map and saying "There!". Shame the infrastructure rarely gets improved at the same time...


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## RobinBHM (25 Nov 2014)

paulm":1edy77eo said:


> RogerS":1edy77eo said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Paul but I don't agree with you. I'd go to a local planning clinic first and then see what they say before going down the planning consultant route.
> ...



I would agree with that. Planning officers and conservation officers are quite non-committal in pre-app advise, so anything that could be even slightly controversial, they will say 'I wouldnt be able to support the application, due to xyz planning policy'. Since a pre-app can take a few weeks and requires drawings, it is often best to just to go ahead and submit an application. 

The chances of consent on green belt are small, so discussing it with a planning consultant is well worth while, they will certainly know if the chance is zero. Some research locally to find if there has been any consent on countryside and hence setting a precedent will provide some insight into whether the idea is worth persuing.


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## RogerS (25 Nov 2014)




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## Mannyroad (25 Nov 2014)

DTR":2zn8hahu said:


> Interesting thread. The borough where I live is full of brownfield sites sitting empty. Yet at the end of my road there's a greenfield site that's having 380 homes built on it. The access is opposite a school on what is almost a country lane. The local council rejected the planning application, but it was appealed and eventually escallated up to Eric Pickles, and the fat **** approved it. So I guess if you want to a build a single house for your family you can't, but if you're Barretts you can do whatever you like :roll:




DTR, you hit the nail right on the head. Cameron really did his bit to destroy decades of considered and damned good planning regulation, by the introduction of the NPPF, which set Local Authorities an impossible job of ensuring they provide a five year supply of housing land, land which is available on brownfield sites but this isn't where developers want to build because there's less profit in it. Why sell a four bedroom house for £350k when you can get another £100k profit if it comes with a nice rural setting. This has seen an explosion of poorly thought out, lazily assembled, predatory applications for greenfield development throughout the countryside, by profit-greedy consultants and landowners, contemptuous of the planning system and its well considered objectives, all of them with just one thing in mind...and that doesn't need spelling out (oops, or have I already done that). 

Fact is though, countryside does not get replaced, once it's gone it's gone. And presently it's disappearing exponentially. And isn't it funny how we all say 'oh, it can't hurt' but funny how it seems to hurt when it's on our own doorstep.

Sorry for my outburst here, but I live in a small rural village that hasn't really changed for almost 100 years, but since Cameron and his cronnies stuck their oar in to the planning system our village is under heavy attack by those very consultants and landowners who would happily see good quality agricultural land, something that can't be replaced once gone, turned into modern, incongruous, poorly conceived housing estates (carbuncles) on the outskirts of the village. There, I got it out of my system, haha!


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## doctor Bob (25 Nov 2014)

Mark Twain......... "buy land they don't make it anymore"


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## Cheshirechappie (25 Nov 2014)

Mannyroad":23522gtn said:


> DTR":23522gtn said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting thread. The borough where I live is full of brownfield sites sitting empty. Yet at the end of my road there's a greenfield site that's having 380 homes built on it. The access is opposite a school on what is almost a country lane. The local council rejected the planning application, but it was appealed and eventually escallated up to Eric Pickles, and the fat **** approved it. So I guess if you want to a build a single house for your family you can't, but if you're Barretts you can do whatever you like :roll:
> ...



I see what you're saying, and to some extent I agree with you. However, there is another factor in play; the housing shortage. During the tenure of the last government, there was a rapid increase in the population, and a rapid increase in house prices, two factors which have combined to make finding a home very difficult for some people. One way to address that problem is to increase the housing stock, which is something the last government didn't do much of. Consequently, the current government find themselves between a rock and a hard place; damned if they don't address the housing shortage, and damned if they do since that will inevitably mean more land disappearing under concrete. The houses have to go somewhere, and it's probably better if they go where demand for housing is highest; that's inevitably going to mean pressure in some parts of the country not seen in others. 

Balanced against that is the argument that a larger population needs more food, and as the UK arleady imports about 40% of what we eat and rising, we have another problem. We can't afford to lose productive agricultural land.

I'd be reluctant to lay all the blame on any particular government (or local authority). I think they've all made mistakes, some of them quite large ones. But we are where we are. We can't shrink the population, or expand the geographical size of the country, or significantly change the economic factors affecting population distribution (despite rhetoric to the contrary). 

(FWIW, parts of the green belt is under threat around my home town, causing some fairly heated public debate, so I do have some sympathy with what you're saying.)

I'm damned if I know what the 'right' answer is to it all. I don't think anybody else knows either. I'm glad it's not my problem!


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2014)

There needs to be very good incentives for building low cost housing on brownfield sites (more often than not closer to where the jobs are). It's not luxury housing in the countryside that there's a great shortage off.


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## powertools (25 Nov 2014)

I think that for anybody to give advice they would need much more information, at the moment all we know you have found a plot of land that even a farmer cannot access for farming and it is green belt land of 5 acres that you would like to build a house on and turn the land into a garden for the new house.
Your best course of action is to do a lot of research yourself starting with latest government policy with regards to greenbelt development here:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coun ... -belt-land

Then read the information on the planning portal site.

Then ask the same question on the self build and ebuild forums


Then as Mark Twain says land will always be a steady investment but to be able to buy cheap land and get permission to build on it is a pipe dream these days, all developers know about any land for sale or possible development sites and if they aren't interested there will be a good reason and any land owner knows that if a plot of land could get permission for a house it would be worth the going rate for a building plot.


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## doctor Bob (25 Nov 2014)

I think there is a little misunderstanding.
I want the land for another reason other than building, I have about 30 years left in me, if I could get planning permission for something during that time it would be a nice bonus.


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## Cheshirechappie (25 Nov 2014)

doctor Bob":2z13uz2r said:


> I think there is a little misunderstanding.
> I want the land for another reason other than building, I have about 30 years left in me, if I could get planning permission for something during that time it would be a nice bonus.



Original question, "Anyone ever been successful at getting planning permission on green belt land.
If so, how?"

I can see how the misunderstanding might have arisen....


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## heatherw (25 Nov 2014)

I do know someone who bought a field in Cornwall, planted hundreds of trees on it and later got permission to build a log cabin on it which was not to be lived in. It still has a little kitchen and toilet, though.....


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## Mannyroad (25 Nov 2014)

doctor Bob":2suiggzi said:


> paulm":2suiggzi said:
> 
> 
> > Would it be for a single dwelling or a larger development ?
> ...




This tells me there's more afoot than "other reasons". Speaks development to me. :wink:


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## RogerS (26 Nov 2014)

Cannabis farm?


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## doctor Bob (26 Nov 2014)

Mannyroad":qg76bbld said:


> doctor Bob":qg76bbld said:
> 
> 
> > paulm":qg76bbld said:
> ...



If it all goes through (no gaurantees), I can then tell you the reasons for wanting it........... should know within a month, a house is very much secondary but would be a nice retirement present


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## doctor Bob (20 Dec 2014)

Hi all,
Just to finish this thread.

The land was within the boundries of my town, 5 acres of green belt land, owned for 40 years who never managed to get planning permission.
I was going to buy it for my wifes business (dog training plus more). However after agreeing a price there was a bit of a dilemma about a clawback clause which due to an excessively high figure I backed out of the deal as it would make it virtually impossible to sell on.

Now looking at houses with paddocks attached


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## RogerS (20 Dec 2014)

Thanks for the update, Bob. Not sure how 'rural' your location is but have you come across this site www.uklandandfarms.co.uk ?


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## flanajb (21 Dec 2014)

John15":3gmhi6p7 said:


> I think farmers can build a dwelling on green belt for themselves if one is not available. It's certainly the case in our village.
> 
> John


They sure can. Under a 'section 106'. Don't get me started on the rights and wrongs of that though!


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## flanajb (21 Dec 2014)

doctor Bob":2b7m8l1e said:


> I like the idea of being able to shout "ger orf my laund", :lol:


 That might change if 'right to roam' ever becomes law in England


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## RogerS (21 Dec 2014)

flanajb":26di56ch said:


> doctor Bob":26di56ch said:
> 
> 
> > I like the idea of being able to shout "ger orf my laund", :lol:
> ...



Highly unlikely..at least I hope so. Bloody red sock brigade strutting about all over the place, yabbering away at high volume. Treating the countryside like a bloody theme park. Dogs off leads chasing sheep. Crapping everywhere. Ok...OK...I know ..there are some considerate walkers but they seem to be getting fewer and fewer.


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