# Restoring old furniture



## White House Workshop (12 Feb 2008)

My son-in-law has decided he wants to do this but is totally clueless! I can't offer him any advice other than 'be careful'. Does anyone in here have any experience or can recommend the best book for him to read for getting started?

His idea is to buy old pieces at auction, fix them up and then resell. So far he's been buying early 18th and some 19th century oak pieces (actually quite nice). All he really needs for now is some basic repairs, worm treatment, and clean/polish. Doesn't sound too difficult but my guess he could really screw things up badly by going about it the wrong way!

PS - he did rope me in to make a container to replace one that was missing from a secret compartment in a late 17th C desk. Good job I had a small piece of really old oak lying around...


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## Sgian Dubh (12 Feb 2008)

White House Workshop":1flh8suw said:


> My son-in-law has decided he wants to do this but is totally clueless!



I can't resist providing some flippant answers, so do please take them in the wry spirit they're meant to convey.



White House Workshop":1flh8suw said:


> Does anyone in here have any experience...



Yes. Me. 



White House Workshop":1flh8suw said:


> ...or can recommend the best book for him to read for getting started?



The prospectuses of colleges that run restoration courses might be a good start.



White House Workshop":1flh8suw said:


> ...my guess he could really screw things up badly by going about it the wrong way!



He sure as hell could. Nothing like complete ignorance, few or no skills and misplaced optimism for making a perfect screw-up. 

Next week I'm planning to be an electrician. Never done it before; know nothing about it; but I'm sure it's a doddle, ha, ha. 

Are you sure you're correct saying he's completely clueless? I mean no-one would try and make money at something they know absolutely nothing about, would they? Slainte.


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## wizer (13 Feb 2008)

Has he been watching 'The Restoration Man' with Alan Herd? If not, might be an idea to keep an eye out for it. He does exactly what you suggest.


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## White House Workshop (13 Feb 2008)

Well, he did read that white spirit and grey scotchbrite pads are good for getting rid of dirt - but he rubbed so hard he went right through the finish to bare wood. Hardly a promising start. Unfortunately he's someone who learns from doing and making mistakes. Fortunately usually only once! Won't be told anything - not by me anyway. Ah well, sit back and watch the fun......


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## Sgian Dubh (14 Feb 2008)

White House Workshop":1zc1kwwj said:


> ... rubbed so hard he went right through the finish to bare wood. ...learns from doing and making mistakes. ... Won't be told anything ...



How are you at building comfy chairs? This could be more entertainng for you than watching soaps on TV, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## White House Workshop (14 Feb 2008)

I guess no-one has a book they can recommend then to stop him totally screwing everything up?


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## tim (14 Feb 2008)

White House Workshop":g4z76ovu said:


> I guess no-one has a book they can recommend then to stop him totally screwing everything up?



Is there a 'Dummies Guide - Knowing your limits'? :lol: 

Seriously, I can't help with a recommendation and I would be very surprised if there was a book out there that it wasn't just a DIY reference rather than one that dexribes the nuances between cleaning and removing any valuable patina etc. His best bet would surely be a course or two.


Cheers

Tim


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## woodbutcher (14 Feb 2008)

hi w h w.

i have a book that he should read called restoring furniture by kenneth davis and thom henvey . orbis publishing. london. i don't know weather it is still in print if not pm me and we could work something out.

woodbutcher.


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## White House Workshop (15 Feb 2008)

Thanks for the tip woodbutcher - just what I was asking for. There are lots of copies available on amazon for 1p and up.


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## RogerM (15 Feb 2008)

White House Workshop":1izi9xz0 said:


> I guess no-one has a book they can recommend then to stop him totally screwing everything up?



WHW - I hope we're ging to get some good WIP piccies! :lol: :roll: :twisted: :lol:


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## White House Workshop (17 Feb 2008)

RogerM":3ur5dcmt said:


> White House Workshop":3ur5dcmt said:
> 
> 
> > I guess no-one has a book they can recommend then to stop him totally screwing everything up?
> ...


Sorry, but he's turning the stuff over too quickly. You could search eBay for early English furniture as he has a couple of things from the early 1700's up right now - a bureau and chest of drawers. He's putting up a Victorian oak bookcase/secretaire next week. Search on Victorian Shakespeare prints of Othello - he's got the only ones up there!


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## [email protected] (2 Mar 2008)

I think it would be fair to say that someone who has no knowledge in restoring antique furniture would take about 10 years to get to the stage where *every* job they did, they could guarentee that job would go as planned (and you can't plan if you have little experience)

Leading up to that magic turning point, the success of alot of jobs is down to luck. Unskilled restoration is the scourge of the antiques world. Its a great shame really, as so many items are ruined past the point of no return due to the most basic of errors.

What usually happens is someone new to the game manages to turn over a few successful jobs and gets some confidence only to fall flat on their face with what seemed like a simple job.

Hopefully the guy in question will find out proper tuition is whats needed or will get fed up and do something else. On the other hand, whilst Joe Gullible Public is out there buying on Ebay, it keeps semi skilleds in "business"


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## johnnyb (2 Mar 2008)

lets be honest here any restoration whether by pro or am could be considered dubious practice. somebody whos been in business for ten years has been asked by antique dealers(the main customers) to do very dodgy things and most will succomb to not lose a customer. restoration is always carried out for financial reasons NEVER to improve the piece. the most ethical practice is always minimum intervention or conservation of the existing object. unfortunatly this does not sell antique furniture. the conservation of items is another field altogether and one where experience, doings things by rote is discouraged treatments should be based on scientific analysis of the object.
which is worse losing a small amount of patina through overcleaning(although patina is not really dirt) or replacing /rebuilding items so skilfully that the general purchaser is fooled into thinking something is what it isnt?


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## houtslager (3 Mar 2008)

LOL  came to this one late, but as a restorer / maker for 28 years I must agree with the last poster, johnnyB.
Most "restorations"are to improve the selling prospects and profit margin, or if for a privat client - the memories of a piece when a loved parent/ grandparent left the piece and has had an accident.
I have 2 bits in the workshop now, for a client in Oslo, that are for the latter in for restoration, and these are not really valuable but in time will become worth more then the work carried out.

I hope your sil will reconize the pitfalls whw, and no sorry there are no really good books out there, maybe oneday if a few of the good restorers here got together , we good compile a fair book on the subject eh ! colinc :wink: 

hs busy doing an Irish bar refurb in Germany


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## White House Workshop (3 Mar 2008)

We he realised he doesn't know much so has taken the minimum interventionist route and does light cleaning only, preserving the patina. His biggest problem has been squaring up a warped door, but it's now within 1/4" so I think he'll let it go at that.

He's making an absolute fortune! Typically he makes between 50 and 75% profit on every piece, but this week he picked up 3 items from a house clearance for about £2000 that he's had valued at Sotheby's for around £50,000. Coming up in their auction in about 6 months. Not every week is like that but he's certainly got an eye for something! I wonder how the auctioneer (and dealers in the room) didn't see them?


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## norman (3 Mar 2008)

Hi all
LOL came to this one late, but as a restorer / maker for 28 years I must agree with the last poster, johnnyB. 
Most "restorations"are to improve the selling prospects and profit margin, or if for a privat client - the memories of a piece when a loved parent/ grandparent left the piece and has had an accident. 
I have 2 bits in the workshop now, for a client in Oslo, that are for the latter in for restoration, and these are not really valuable but in time will become worth more then the work carried out. 

I hope your sil will reconize the pitfalls whw, and no sorry there are no really good books out there, maybe oneday if a few of the good restorers here got together , we good compile a fair book on the subject eh ! colinc

Have to agree with HG. Wish this chap the very best of luck but he will have to learn on the job. as most restores have to do.
Regards
Norman


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## Mr T (4 Mar 2008)

Just to stop him using the scotshbrite and white spirit I would suggest a recipe for reviver, which is good for cleaning and reconstititing a finish.

Equal parts turps, meths and linseed oil plus a generous dash of vinegar. Shake regularly and apply with a cloth.

Screwfix also market a good furniture cleaner.


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## Sgian Dubh (6 Mar 2008)

Mr T":97hjtt2v said:


> I would suggest a recipe for reviver, which is good for cleaning and reconstititing a finish.
> 
> Equal parts turps, meths and linseed oil plus a generous dash of vinegar. Shake regularly and apply with a cloth.



Chris, that's a variation of quite a common recipe that includes (boiled) linseed oil in the mix. The boiled linseed oil is the one to be wary of.

Boiled linseed oil included in the mix doesn't serve any useful purpose on film forming finishes such as lacquer, varnish and shellac.

Antique furniture pre-dating the early 1800's was mostly finished with things like wax, brick dust, early natural spirit varnishes and various oils, including linseed oil. It was later that french polishing became the number one finish in high quality work.

These home brew cleaners that include linseed oil, where the oil is supposed to erroneously 'feed' the wood, have been around for a long time. One thing these mixes are associated with is darkening of the wood, with the boiled linseed oil being the culprit. 

I think I'm correct in saying that it's led some of the antiques cogniscenti to opine that furniture cleaned using these mixtures is devalued due to the 'unnatural' darkening. 

Oh, and welcome to the forum. I spotted you'd arrived three or four weeks ago. Slainte.


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## Mr T (7 Mar 2008)

I'm not sure if you are criticising the use of the reviver, as I specified, or just the use of boiled linseed oil.


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## Sgian Dubh (8 Mar 2008)

Mr T":329lpqhr said:


> I'm not sure if you are criticising the use of the reviver, as I specified, or just the use of boiled linseed oil.



The boiled linseed oil is the questionable element Chris.

If you want to clean a dirty piece of furniture the boiled linseed oil serves no purpose. To clean a dirty surface all you need is something to loosen the dirt and wash it away. White spirits and a mild abrasive, eg, wire wool or nylon pad is one method.

If you want to strip old dirty and crazed shellac then alcohol and an abrasive do that effectively and take you down to bare wood. Adding boiled linseed oil to the mix puts linseed oil on the wood. The question you have to ask is, "Do I want to apply linseed oil to this wood after I've stripped the shellac?"

Similarly if the reviver contains linseed oil and is used to clean up an antique that has a couple of hundred years of wax on it, you need to ask the same question, ie, do you want or need to add linseed oil.

Linseed oil doesn't add anything useful to the cleaning properties of the solvents and astringents in the mix you mentioned containing white spirits (turps), alcohol (aka meths) and vinegar. 

Linseed oil remains after all the astringents and solvents have evaporated from the surface. It remains on the surface of a film forming polish that's not dissolved by any of the solvents in the mix. What useful purpose can a thin gummy film of linseed oil serve over an oil based varnish or lacquer is a fair question.

If the old polish was an oil, a wax or a shellac in some form, then the solvents strip the old finishes or polish away and the linseed oil remains on and in the fibres of the wood. Then the question has to be, "Do I want to replace the original finish that was on the wood with linseed oil?"

In this last scenario the original finish, now replaced with linseed, may not have had the colour changing characterists that linseed oil has. Boiled linseed oil darkens the wood. Another characteristic of linseed oil is continual darkening over time. 

So, let's say the original finish on an old piece of furniture was a shellac of some sort over wood(s) coloured with natural vegetable and other dyes available 200 years ago. Naturally the original colours have changed over the years as the dyes have faded and the wood has oxidised and reacted to UV rays. Linseed oil in the reviver will immediately darken any wood it comes into contact with as the shellac is stripped away by the alcohol in the mix, and it will continue to darken over the years. 

In this case has the reviver done the job intended, or has it unintentionally altered the nature of the piece entirely? And is this what was intended by the person doing the 'reviving'? Or would a different reviving technique be an altogether better method, eg, simply strip the old shellac with alcohol and re-polish the job with new shellac. Slainte.


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## Mr T (8 Mar 2008)

Lets ignore the boiled linseed oil, I never mentioned using boiled linseed oil to start with.

The recipe I gave was for a reviver, lets call it an all pupose reviver. Not a stripper. You seem to be saying that the mixture will strip the finish. This is not the intention. I have used this recipe for reviver for many years, the effect it has is to clean dirt from the finish and, for shellac finishes, soften them so that some lustre can be restored by buffing with bees wax.

I have not experienced a "thin gummy film of oil" on the piece when using this reviver. Bear in mind that linseed oil is often used in french polishing to lubricate the pad and is then spirited off.

I would be reluctant to strip a finish and repolish unless the original finish was beyond recovery, isn't the responsibility of a restorer to retain the patina of a piece when possible.


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## [email protected] (9 Mar 2008)

johnnyb said:


> lets be honest here any restoration whether by pro or am could be considered dubious practice. somebody whos been in business for ten years has been asked by antique dealers(the main customers) to do very dodgy things and most will succomb to not lose a customer. restoration is always carried out for financial reasons NEVER to improve the piece. quote]
> 
> hmmm, bit harsh this possibly IMHO. Firstly not all restorers have main customers that are dealers and not all dealers will ask for dodgy things to be done.
> 
> ...


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## Sgian Dubh (10 Mar 2008)

Mr T":2xa33o2v said:


> Lets ignore the boiled linseed oil, I never mentioned using boiled linseed oil to start with.
> 
> The recipe I gave was for a reviver ... You seem to be saying that the mixture will strip the finish. This is not the intention.



Chris, it's a little difficult not to mention the linseed oil in my replies as you brought it into the conversation to start with. It's unusual to use raw linseed oil in these reviver mixes as raw linseed oil takes an extremely long time to dry whereas boiled linseed oil dries relatively quickly-- but linseed oil is linseed oil.

The reviver does work as you described reasonably well, and I've used similar mixes for a long time too. It depends what I'm trying to achieve. If I'm looking to soften an old damaged shellac finish I prefer to use neat alcohol. Most likely in that scenario I'll spray a mist coat of alcohol over the shellac until it's softened enough and resets into a continuous film. The spray technique is similar to curing orange peel in sprayed lacquer finishes by mist spraying lacquer thinner and/or lacquer retarder onto the cured film.

After that more shellac can be applied, or it can be waxed, or the piece left as is. I suppose when it comes to shellac I'm not a purist; I get the suff on with a spray gun. 

The primary purpose of my original response, which seems to have got lost, is to be wary of the darkening effect linseed oil has on wood. Let's say you're reviving a tired or damaged shellac finish which has worn away at edges and corners using a white spirits, alcohol, linseed oil and vinegar mix. The mix will soften the shellac as you say, but the oil also gets on the exposed wood. Where it gets on to the wood it darkens it, and that gives a different colour to the rest of the piece.

The mix can be used as a stripper on shellac, even though it's not the most efficient stripper, but on old oil and wax finishes it definitely strips the finish even when used quite lightly. It's ocassions such as this, and where you're trying to revive an old shellac finish that's worn away in places that the question has to be asked, "Do I want to apply this linseed oil, that I know darkens the wood, to this piece of furniture?" 

That was meant to be the main thrust of my contribution. Slainte.


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## Mr T (10 Mar 2008)

Richard

I've only just realised it's you that's giving me the hard time. I should have recognised your authoritative manner. It was Martin Speak at the very institution at which you teach that gave me the recipe, when I did my C&G Restoration about ten years ago, and it was considered the bees knees then. So it shows that "what goes around comes around" . I'll stick to Screwfix furniture cleaner from now on, unless you have any objections to that of course!


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## Sgian Dubh (11 Mar 2008)

Mr T":2i1a2riq said:


> Richard
> 
> I've only just realised it's you that's giving me the hard time.
> It was Martin Speak ... that gave me the recipe, ... it was considered the bees knees
> ...



I have no personal experience of the Screwfix reviver, but I did have a look at the COSHH sheet at the Screwfix site. The only contents listed are ethanol, methanol and turpentine oil, ie, genuine gum turpentine. The first two are versions of alcohol and the last is a distilled resin high in terpenes extracted from a coniferous tree, mostly pine trees. All those ingredients are evaporative solvents so they leave no residue after the dirt's been removed. I can't tell if there are any oils in the mix. If there are any such oils they'd only be listed if they pose a health risk.

The person that probably did the most to popularise the alcohol, vinegar, white spirit and linseed oil mix as a reviver in my mind was that guru from the mid 20th century, Charles Hayward. Everybody believed every word Hayward wrote as gospel, and he was certainly prolific, and sometimes wrong, ha, ha.

I'd assumed you knew who was behind my moniker: it's just a click away and I check out all new posters I respond to right away before I open my fat mouth, ha, ha. I'm sorry if you feel a bit bruised. I wasn't trying to do that. I just thought we were discussing an interesting topic. It's certainly got some information out in the open, and hopefully one or two visitors to this thread have found something useful in the to-ing and fro-ing that's been going on. Slainte.


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## Paul Chapman (11 Mar 2008)

Sgian Dubh":3qamla86 said:


> It's certainly got some information out in the open, and hopefully one or two visitors to this thread have found something useful in the to-ing and fro-ing that's been going on.



I've found it very interesting and informative, Richard. I think most hobby woodworkers find the whole subject of finishing and repairing old finishes quite confusing, partly because they don't do enough of it to gain experience and partly because there is so much confilicting information about and much of it does not give the whole story.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## johnnyb (11 Mar 2008)

just a mention of a superb and non tricksy reviver... harrells reviver made by jenkins.(definitely no linseed oil!) it is very gentle and controllable and contains no solvents and small amounts of abrasives.


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## johnnyb (11 Mar 2008)

ps whw sounds like he should become an antique dealer then and not waste his time tickling things up as them profit margins are not to be sniffed at!!!


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## White House Workshop (13 Mar 2008)

johnnyb":35sdlrz2 said:


> ps whw sounds like he should become an antique dealer then and not waste his time tickling things up as them profit margins are not to be sniffed at!!!


That's what he's decided - for now. The biggest problem in that circle is that once you are well known the auctioneers push the prices as high as they can. Still, he's paid his mortgage for the next 3 months, and bought a huge trailer for the back of his truck!


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## johnnyb (15 Mar 2008)

good luck to him!


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## restorer (3 Apr 2008)

johnnyb":1lhjwuey said:


> harrells reviver made by jenkins.



I can second that, been using it for 30 years.

Reviving old finishes really is a subjective and very black art. It's rare to encounter an old piece that has not been wiped over (that's French polished on top of an earlier wax finish) at some time or other. 

If it's an original wax finish I would never use reviver. Just using a good soft bees wax in a circular motion has the effect of cleaning off dust and dirt while building up a new layer.

If it's been wiped you can get a patchy finish where the French polish has come off in patches. If you revive this you end up with flat areas where the reviver has striped all the wax off back to the wood, and blotchy islands of French polish. 

If it's French polished all over, reviver is the way to go. Makes not much difference if it's proprietary or you make your own.

I use a mix of raw linseed oil, turpentine and pumice. Works a treat. :wink:


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## BradNaylor (5 Apr 2008)

Many years ago, when I was dealing in pine furniture and had a spraybooth at the back of my shop, a customer came in with an lovely antique mahogany side table and asked if I could 'restore' it.

I said 'Yes'!

Being young and innocent, I gave the table a good clean with Liberon Libnet, a quick sand, and then sprayed it with gloss pre-cat lacquer!

It came up a treat. The customer was absolutely delighted.

I often think about it...



... and cringe!


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