# Holding cylinder in vice for boring, what angle to make jaws.



## Ttrees

Hello folks, so I've had to ditch the case hardened lump of metal which I was planning to make a part from.
As an aside, it will be used as a bench grinding dressing tool, and looks to be even more effective as the hungriest dresser that one has ever seen.
In less than 5 mins, to turn a new 8" wheel into something which you would be swapping on a 6" machine!

So basically learning on working plastic or derlin material instead of steel which is teaching me some lessons.
Not getting a good hole, and the bits are stalling a bit much
(I need change me belts on the pillar drill, but I'm guessing not bad practice should one be very patient like myself, to make do with plenty of slip, as I'm drilling these out to 30mm)

Lets forget about that though for the minute, and focus on my setup
Sorry don't have new piccies, but its pretty much the same size part from plastic rather than steel.

Table and vice was already trammed, and hole was already accurately pre bored to 10mm BTW.







Used a similar setup block underneath, but wider for allowing parallels/soft jaws.

The issue I'm thinking is, that I need some sort of angled block to get at least 3 points of contact, rather than squeezing the part making two.

Will making blocks which hold the work at 45 degrees be optimal for this task, or is there a better way to hold the work, or possibly different angles than 45...
Is three or four points better for the job?

Thanks
Tom


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## Alpha-Dave

I have found that the 3x contact points on my Sevo vice are perfectly adequate for holding cylinders. Note that I’m using the ‘round faces’ on the mobile jaws to hold the cylinder, not the flat ones as shown in the second picture. 

Also note that they solidly lock in those positions, not freely-swivelling.


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## Ttrees

Thanks AlphaDave
Without knowing if an end mill reduces this pinching occurrence or if the drill is a worse offender
I'd take a pot shot guess the end mill would be more apparent, so am guessing that's quite a tolerance you are working to.

Have you ever tried the same on plastic?
Not that I can say for sure that the holding of the work was certainly why this has happened, but I think its likely the case as the biggest factor.

Something tells me that it would still be the same should I have 3 points of contact which is not symmetrical.
If this is the case though, then I should ask if that particular vice is intended for use as such, as it doesn't appear that the pair at the rear of the photo spread apart far enough to
enable a symmetrical arrangement....
(unless I'm missing something)

Ps thanks for giving me the correct terminology for my post.

Thanks

Tom


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## Terry - Somerset

With thick walls, three points of contact will be adequate as the component is unlikely to deform under the pressure of a tightened vice.

I suspect the ideal would be (a) to have the points evenly spaced, and (b) for deformable items (plastic) the more contact points the better. So I would go with vice jaws angled at 45 degrees to give four points of contact.

I assume the drill is sharp and the speed is adjusted appropriately.


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## Ttrees

Thanks Terry, then four it is, unless someone can talk me out of it 

Drills are likely as good as I can get them.
And my adjustable speed pillar drill is down to one speed due to the belts stretch factor,
Which happens to be a universal speed lol
Very underpowered as it is for the likes of what I'm doing, so its very slow going. 

Cheers
Tom


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## Phill05

Ttrees, you can make a simple V block use against one side it will stop any movement can be in wood plastic or even better metal.

Edit: add image


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## TRITON

Know anyone with a 3D printer ?


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## Ttrees

Thanks again folks, I was just worried that a 45 v groove might still have the same effect 
as just two points with this plastic.
Might be having another bash at this yet, so will report back with how I get on with a pair of 45 blocks.

Cheers
Tom


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## Fergie 307

+1 for Phil's blocks. If the jaws on your vice are removable then you could consider making up a set with a central vertical v groove, and also a horizontal one in each That makes it easy to hold round bar either vertically or horizontally, and you can still use the vice as a parallel jaw without having to change anything.


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## TFrench

When I have to hold a cylinder in the milling machine vice I just use a little eclipse vee block.


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## johnbest981

+1 more for Phils blocks, and Fergies explanation.

With the plastic being softer you are more likely to bend it if you overtighten - but the benefit of it being plastic is the drill will require less force to go through it so you wont have to haunch it up so tight.

If your machine is stalling drilling out that size then a good idea is to start with a centre drill (although again, less important on soft plastic), then pre drill the size of the web on the big drill (the bit at the very tip of the drill where the two cutting flutes meet) probably around 3mm on that drill. That'll take out a heap of effort that the drill has to work but will leave enough material for the drill flutes to "get under" and stop the chatter you can get from pre drilling the hole too big in a "stepping up" the drill sizes method.


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## Fergie 307

TFrench said:


> When I have to hold a cylinder in the milling machine vice I just use a little eclipse vee block.


I bought a couple of the ones that are square with a v groove on each side, about 4 inches long and maybe 2 inches square. Found them in a box of bits at the local car boot, a bit bashed about but ideal for holding stuff in a vice, only cost me a couple of quid and use them all the time.


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## Ttrees

Seems I might be worrying about nothing, although I suppose I'll have to see yet if four points is enough support to hold without deformation.

No bother now getting things done a bit quicker, now I've got comfortable with the poor mans cross slide on the lathe, ends faced and beveled fast,
and have plenty of stock to redo the part.
If the four points dont work, I might make another set of v blocks and just stick a clamp on them.

I've figured out the dimension I need with the part, so won't be making another pair
until I disassemble the machine again.
I am going to do a test and thorough checks as I am curious about a few things on the machine, so don't want to do too much at the same time.

Stuck old Koyo bearing (likely needing proper cleaning and repacking yet)
into the wheel as it has less chamfering on the races compared to the SKF ones.
So I made sure I HAVE to disassemble again, as I guess it will get noisy fast, so will be making another pair soon.

Glad to report that no looseness is apparent like it was before, phew, thought my bore got a bit worn, but it was only the bearing dropping further in and out of the wheel, (old bearing spacer wasn't parallel)
Quite apparent the change as the washer actually is pressing on the inner race now.
An easy thing to spot now, should one have worn plastic spacers on their machine.

Will be interesting to see how things fair when drilling.
Might try to make a juicy post should I still fail making the holes spot on.

Thanks folks

Tom


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## Fergie 307

johnbest981 said:


> +1 more for Phils blocks, and Fergies explanation.
> 
> With the plastic being softer you are more likely to bend it if you overtighten - but the benefit of it being plastic is the drill will require less force to go through it so you wont have to haunch it up so tight.
> 
> If your machine is stalling drilling out that size then a good idea is to start with a centre drill (although again, less important on soft plastic), then pre drill the size of the web on the big drill (the bit at the very tip of the drill where the two cutting flutes meet) probably around 3mm on that drill. That'll take out a heap of effort that the drill has to work but will leave enough material for the drill flutes to "get under" and stop the chatter you can get from pre drilling the hole too big in a "stepping up" the drill sizes method.


Good advice there. The problem is if you only have the two flat jaws then any catch or chatter will tend to cause the piece to tilt along the line of the jaws, having at least a third point of contact prevents that happening, and allows you to hold it firmly in place with much less force on the jaws. I was always taught that a pilot hole should never be more than half the size or less compared to the finished size. So for 10mm, maybe a 4mm pilot hole. If you go too big then all the work is being done by the very edge of the flutes, which can then overheat, chatter and blunt the drill much more quickly than if you are spreading the cut across most of the edge. The only exception is probably any kind of thermo plastic, where you need to be careful as drilling a large hole in one go can heat the plastic up too much and start to melt it. In that case taking the hole out in smaller steps is probably a good idea. I work in Delrin a lot and the most important thing is to make sure your cutting tools are razor sharp, a blunt tool or drill will tear rather than cut it. Have fun.


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## Fergie 307

And if you are machining Delrin, or pretty much any plastic on a lathe my advice would be to use HSS tools in preference to carbide, and make sure they are really sharp. And bear in mind if you work it a lot it will get hot and expand, so if size is critical then machine it to within say 1mm of the finished size, then let it cool down fully before finishing to size.


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## Alpha-Dave

If you want to be certain of no movement, then the solution would be to drill/cut a round hole in a block of metal the size of the workpiece, then split it in half and drill&tap it so it can go in place of the vice’s jaws. That would give almost perfect contact around the entire cylinder with very little pressure needed, so no deformation. 

That is probably only worth doing if you have to make lots of the same thing or very litte material for the work.


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## Ttrees

@Alpha-Dave that sounds like it would be the solution if all else fails.
No hefty blocks of metal around, as I'd be making steel parts rather than plastic.
Have some suitable plastic which is a bit poisonous to work, harder than the plastic I'm working on, which would do, 
but I will have a wee mock up with wooden blocks first.

Lots of options it seems.
Thanks for the input everyone.

Tom


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## Ttrees

Hello again folks
Sorry been such an age with this, I've been pestering ye with loadsa drilling queries
and as always pure speculative once again.

Not sure if the jaws worked or not, clearly I'm not doing something right yet, although
things are maybe progressing...as in the process of elimination is lessened somewhat 
Just to give an insight into my setup...

Table locked tight and trammed beforehand





And double checked the vise which was also bang on





Jaws made





Also took the time to make a quick drill sharpening gauge which was enlightening





Now to the speculative bit
I am going to setup a jack anymore for the table, might buy a bottle jack if they are cheap enough.
Say I do and that's taken out of the equation.

What I haven't seen is a centering bit for the pillar drill, since it would be nice to center on with this pre bored cylinder, which seems spot on, and the bottom faced on a lathe.

I can only guess it is the issue, although my clamping setup could do with deeper clamp
but lets not go there, as I've had these same issues with the mounting plate in the other axis also, it's flat as a pancake and doesn't tip, even when clamped like above.


...................................
What I've been doing is as follows...

A bit of a sloppy fit in this pre bored material, for the drill to truly hit dead center,
but the issue seems to get worse progressively...

Sounds very confusing looking at my writings, better number this instead in a progressive fashion.

1 Table locked
2 Center the drill in accurate hole as good as I can get it
3 Vise jaws flush with that stick in my hand and tightened,
4 Vise clamped to the table




Unlock lever and drop table enough to swing away
Switch to the next size up, (my machine is really needing belts, no beans to take decent chips)
Don't seem to have a photo, what I was hoping would be the most sureworthy gamble in regards to aligning the table back up once one changes a bit, 

So far, my thinking was to ever so lightly engage the bit into the work while hand turning it backwards, praying that it would center up,
and progressively tightening the table lock whilst turning the bit.
Clearly this doesn't seem to be working for me,
so I'm guessing there is something I'm missing on here.






I'm starting to question if I should attempt lowering the table enough so I can change bits without moving the table, or at least having it somewhat lower,
enough to swing the table over and change to another bit,
and also using some sort of centering bit to keep an eye on things.

Keen to see what ye say.
Maybe it's all down to the bit of flex in the table, but to be honest, the machine needs a bit of babying in regards to taking heavy cuts, so I take it easy.


Thinking some more about this, maybe some sort of support for the table for use with a jack or other solution, and another bracket to make some sort of horizontal stop for it also would possibly count those two issues out.
Don't think there is that much runout on the machine TBH, likely would be noticable with a 30mm bit at unsuitable RPM's if belts were tight whatsoever, and not inspired to go delving into that, better things to be doing,
don't mind making something that is a bit more simple like welding up some brackets or whatnot, that seems progressive compared.



Thanks for reading

Tom


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## Jacko264

I hope you under stand this idea 
turn the drill bed 90% then bolt the vice to the bed with the jaws vertical 
put the metal in the vice so the drill goes though it 
as I Said it’s only a idea of mine 
or drill it in a lathe 
Graham


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## Ttrees

Jacko264 said:


> I hope you under stand this idea
> turn the drill bed 90% then bolt the vice to the bed with the jaws vertical
> put the metal in the vice so the drill goes though it
> as I Said it’s only a idea of mine
> or drill it in a lathe
> Graham


I'm failing to see what could be achieved here, apart from the possibility of a slighter 
more rigid setup, as these parts are shallow enough to be drilled as is,
unless you mean some possible method for steering the bit by unlocking and rotating the table ever so slightly.

I flipped the first component around after drilling half way, and I've gotten away with 
better results many times rather than attempting drilling at any depth.
Just to test this I tried without flipping and indeed the result was indeed worse.

Thinking the solution might be a centering cone, and some horizontal stop for the table.
and proper support under the table.

Love to acquire some more knowledge, but annoyingly most machinists don't hang around fighting with a machine which is not seemingly the tool for the job,
well... for a machinist and not a chancer like myself,
This machine seems adequate for me, and definitely worth doing a bit of engineering on.

Curious why I haven't seen much to do with drilling accurate holes using a bog standard pillar drill, although I've not watched all the youtubes.

Cheers
Tom


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## Limey Lurker

I don't know how many of these holes you need to drill, but if it's a lot, and IIWY, I'd somehow make the drills to the same length (by cutting them down, or extending the shanks of the shorter ones), and leave the workpiece in the clamp until boring is completed. This would guarantee accuracy.


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## Ttrees

@Limey Lurker
How do you propose getting the work centered in the first place?
Theoretically, it should be easy enough as it's accurately bored already.

Seems either I'm doing something wrong, and/or folks are just not using their pillar drill to its potential.

Seems I'd be best *making* a cone, which is a lot of faff to rig that up ATM 
The ones for the routers I've seen, they seem too wide.

ps yet to see what one of the pieces I made will turn out like, made extra wide to
clear up some funkiness of the start of the cuts
Partly used my old methods of flipping the work and it turned out a lot better than the other, should have kept at that and might have got acceptable results,
rather than getting that optimistic laziness.



Thanks
Tom


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## Ttrees

Seems it might be good practice to use a centering tool

Why isn't there something like this sold everywhere without the Morse taper shank?


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## Phill05

Hi Tom,

I can see a couple of points that need to be sorted before you will get a straight through cut, 1: is the type of vise you are using is all wrong you need a flat vice made to use on a drill like this one.



If you look at your image it looks like the handle end is tipping down try taking a height measurement from the fixed height jaw above your bolts and again a measurement to the top of the jaw on the handle end, when you have put some pressure on it.

2: when drilling with a large drill say 20mm or 3/4" you need a centre drill to go in and produce a small chamfer then using a say 6mm drill go all the way through then follow up with the larger drill, it will hold the drill bit more in the centre, if you are going to use your vise think if cutting metal you need to push the drill into the work so you are tilting the cut by pressure, if you are cutting plastic or brass it will drag the bit into the work and you will feel it bite so only small downward pressure needed.

Make sure the jaws are both at the same height by putting a block under the handle end then try again.


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## Inspector

The basic drill press is the wrong machine to use because as you have found out you loose registration every time you change settings. I would suggest you look at annular cutters to make the hole in one shot. They are similar to a hole saw except the hole is more precise and there is no centre drill so the plug that comes out will be solid. The only issue will be finding ones with a shank small enough to fit your chuck. They are meant for milling machines with a greater range of holding options.

Pete


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## Ttrees

Thanks for your thoughts guys, the vice isn't the issue here, it's pretty solid.
My money is on the table deflecting if anything.
My drill isn't likely plum which may well be the case from my photos, and the stock is already prebored, I'm just facing the work here to sit in the vise.







Seems one could design another bracket for the column which could go underneath 
the the existing one, which would provide support and indexing.
Presuming someone could make this work, it would be the handiest solution.

I'm thinking some sorta frame which can be bolted to the the base, 
that could provide support and a hard stop somewhere on the bracket.
Most likely a bottle jack would be good for the job, but I'm open to any ideas.

Thanks fellas
Tom


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## TFrench

Tom, if a bench vice was rigid or accurate you'd see them on milling machines. Listen to the advice you're getting, there's some very smart people on here and pooh-poohing their advice means you won't get any in the future. People don't like talking to brick walls. You're trying to do a milling machine's job with a cheap pillar drill. I've got a radial arm drill at work - not a monster by any means but it's a Swiss made precision piece of kit. If I have to swing the head to change bits, lining back up on a hole is a pig. Generally I run it slow in reverse to centre it if I have to. To be honest though generally I'll do jobs like that on a mill because it's so much easier to line up on a hole, or I can use a centering device or co-ax indicator.


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## Ttrees

@TFrench, Not poo poohing the advice, but this bench vice is not what the issue is,

I took the comment as a suggestion to check it, and can likely prove this easily with some biscuit tin feelers, and tramming again, and finding out whether the drill/table/bracket for the column is flexing more than I think it is.
Also maybe I should have mentioned that I've frequently used the above "drill vise" and also beautiful oversized ones on a bridgeport, 
Still had plenty of issues with that drill vise on the folks one in the past.

It's the use of a pillar drill which is at issue as inspector says.
There is no index, so I'm questioning why a centering cone isn't sold for this purpose,
as at the very least one could stick their clock on the column, should those with a fancier drill have a more rigid table?

Tom


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## Alpha-Dave

Ttrees said:


> Seems it might be good practice to use a centering tool
> 
> Why isn't there something like this sold everywhere without the Morse taper shank?



Does your pillar drill not have a morse taper onto which the jacobs chuck is fitted? If the quill is extended, is there a vertical slot exposed for a drift to go in?

This also gives the option to use morse-taper drill bits, which will be more accurate than the reduce-shank ones in a chuck.


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## Ttrees

@alpha Dave I believe it does, although not sure which taper it is.
Not attempting to remove it as things seems pretty good when you consider these are getting drilled out to 30mm.

Good point though, if one were to make the table non movable, then that might be the way to go.
Seems that still wouldn't be guaranteed otherwise, unless one measured or made a hard stop for the table, in which one would presume would be in some article or another?

Thanks
Tom


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## Fergie 307

Perhaps I have missed something here but why don't you bore them in the lathe?


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## Fergie 307

If you are trying to drill a 30mm hole with a two flute drill in Acetal you will definitely need to dull the cutting edges of the drill or it will snatch like mad. For centering you could try using a length of silver steel rod the same size as your pilot hole, and the same length as your next drill. Put it in the chuck then position the vice so that it will slide cleanly in. But overall I agree with the view that what you are attempting is beyond the rigidity of your set up. You would be better off to get a chuck on the lathe and bore them.


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## Limey Lurker

Ttrees said:


> @Limey Lurker
> How do you propose getting the work centered in the first place?
> Theoretically, it should be easy enough as it's accurately bored already.
> 
> Seems either I'm doing something wrong, and/or folks are just not using their pillar drill to its potential.
> 
> Seems I'd be best *making* a cone, which is a lot of faff to rig that up ATM
> The ones for the routers I've seen, they seem too wide.
> 
> ps yet to see what one of the pieces I made will turn out like, made extra wide to
> clear up some funkiness of the start of the cuts
> Partly used my old methods of flipping the work and it turned out a lot better than the other, should have kept at that and might have got acceptable results,
> rather than getting that optimistic laziness.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Tom


I've just re-read the entire post again, and found your comment on initial centreing. I've always considered that a bent wire in the chuck, rotated by hand, will establish the centre of a bore pretty accurately. For more accuracy, I'd use a dial gauge.


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## Ttrees

Thanks folks
Messing around with an index, just to see how it might work.
Unfortunately the bore of the table is too bad to make something proper with,
but I've stuck some tubing up through anyway for dry runs to see if I can work without it fouling.

Not sure, but I reckon a bottle jack could be affixed and an easy bracket under the table can stop against it, might need to be made rigid though, as I've never handled one.
Liddles didn't have any in stock, so guess I might try make it work with a scissor jack instead.
Very surprising indexing isn't a real popular thing with a machine like mine, since folks do use car jacks for under drill tables, but I did manage to find someone who
uses a centering cone, but favours an edge finder.
Seems like that person along with others, uses a X-Y vise on the table for indexing.

Need to make the part again, done a numpty on the lathe and went past the line.
Stock cut from the other end of the tube this time, the hole is smaller on this end of the remaining cylinder, (tapered bore) so can't face it easily as is too small for mounting on a mandrel, so last chance to do it easily.

Would love to be able to flip the work this time, but having no good face will mean I have to file it flat on the cut side.
Being trying to advance from that, but guess I'll have to stick with the ways which have always worked for me in the past.


The table bracket flexes when trammed and weight applied, so that needs taking care of also, the vise is very much a skookum wee thing, so that's a non issue.

Not sure if I mentioned it, but I'm running with loose belts, which makes any suitable RPM and feeding issues not applicable in my case.

Will report back later, hopefully I have a little scissors jack somewhere.

All the best
Tom


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## Ttrees

Found the jack, had a good ponder and seems it might do the trick
Made a start on making it mountable, dang nib for the other end was missing
got there in the end though.














Looks like I'm gonna have to start getting used to mounting the vise the other way from now on.
Gotta to get the thing solid from the bottom up first.







All the best

Tom


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## Ttrees

Found this shape a bit puzzling to bash somewhat flat, lots of trial and error but got results in the end





Had another rethink of the hard stop/index idea after pondering about the maximum extremities in which the table would need dropping.
After having a good look at the knee, its seems made for the job! 







Fixed me wee 5 quid hacksaw with a cut masonry nail, wasn't sure if it was going to be a make or break moment gulp! 




Yet to bash flat and clean up but things are looking promising.





Tom


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## Jacko264

How many. Bits do you need to drill ?
how much material do you need drilling out ?
have you thought about a reamer 
Graham


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## Ttrees

Jacko264 said:


> How many. Bits do you need to drill ?
> how much material do you need drilling out ?
> have you thought about a reamer
> Graham


I haven't delved into anything but consumer tooling so far in my workshop, and don't know much about reaming, but seems a bit more specialized than my basic equipment.
It is only two bearing spacers for bandsaw wheels, and the first one I made is sufficient, while the other seems to be holding up so far.

I frequently need the drill for all sorts of stuff, so a case of making the machine possible to do this sorta work for again.
I'll possibly be making two more spacers just for fun.

ps If you've read through my whole post I must apologize that it's taken a differing turn.
I should possibly make a new thread, as I cannot edit the header, 
hopefully the overlords can change that sometime.

Cheers
Tom


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## Ttrees

Got the bracket welded up



Somehow ground the chamfer on the opposite side like a big eegit, 
(was rushing to get the noisy work done with the grinding)




Few tacks on the ends and a bit of back and fourth





Getting closer to mocking things up to see what the drop is like, so I can muck around with figuring the flip down hard stop/index plate.
The scissor jack is a lot more stout than I was expecting it to be,
but at the same time I still expect some slop, even when persuaded to the extreme right, so am eager to see how things fair out in that regards also.

Tom


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## Alpha-Dave

I don’t understand why you are doing what you are doing (massively increasing the rigidity of a quite rigid thing to then drill plastic), but I wish you luck!


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## Ttrees

@Alpha-Dave
Metal seems more forgiving than this stuff, but the issue is the same on any pillar drill I've ever seen, fault is likely to happen when changing bits.
This hopefully will sort that, although it will make the table more rigid also, so if it works will kill two birds with the one stone.

Can't see a way around this, unless you have an X-Y vise or table which is fixed, 
which if not motorized looks a right pain to do, and doesn't lend itself to being as compact.
This seems an easier method than what I've seen, but awaiting embarrassment on that one with some easy solution.

Cheers
Tom


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## Alpha-Dave

Is the problem that when going up a drill-size you have to remove the work piece from under the drill so that you can change bits, and therefore the next size hole won’t be centered? If you are using 2-flute drills that should not be a major issue as the force on the 2-sides will try to equalise and so should just follow the previous hole, even if off by a small amount. 

Going back to the original problem-statement, I have found that centreing a round hole in an already-round thing to be pretty much impossible; the trick being to make the hole first, then mount onto a mandrel with the same diameter as the hole, then cut the outside. I suspect the inverse of this is possible using some sort of collet to hold a round workpiece, but that would be huge.


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## Ttrees

Not having read my thread from start to finish, I have to presume that 
my thread maybe a bit unclear to say the least, lol
And possibly likely other factors where some of the confusion is,
Not sure whether to apologize or not about my derailment, as hopefully the original 
objective will be sorted.

Back on the matter again, 
I might mention again that this stock is allready pre bored accurately
(not by me) so the issue of precision in that regards is met already.
All I wish to do is bore the work out to 30mm.

Seems plastics are more unforgiving than steel in regards to changing and lining everything up again, but I've had many's an issue before drilling anything beyond even 20mm thick.

I guess there is an easier solution than what I'm trying to make work, but have yet to see it, and surprised that some company doesn't do so.

Tom


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## Ttrees

Went mucking about with this today









Far from a tidy job as it is, but enough to get on with some testing





Had a go at resetting the bit, looks possibly promising.
Needing to press with too much force to eliminate slop as is,
so I figure welding a wee tab onto the bottom of the bracket, as to make contact with the jacks lifting plate at a lower position will reduce the effort needed to push to the right,
as it will hopefully be more rigid.





Had a wee mess around with the maximum distance for fun,
This isn't that important, at least not right now,
since the last photo above is the size needed to align centrally in the bore
i.e sunk in the work.

Thinking some sort of 3/2/1 hardwood block might be the best, or at least a simple solution for the meanwhile...
should support be of concern, say drilling stainless for example.





Around 80mil of a gap to bridge.
Thinking some sort of swinging stop might be simplified by the wee tab I mentioned.

Might see if I can borrow a bottle jack before doing this, just to see if it would be that much nicer of a contraption to utilize for this purpose.
Even with slop, likely would be easier to make more rigid, rather than attempting to make a bracket for this scissor jack of some sort.





Eager to see how I fair out with the wee tab, should it do the trick,
I'll be testing this out.

All the best
Tom


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## Ttrees

Hello again
Done some more head scratching and figured a plate long enough to get to the bottom of the scissor jack would be a good start.
Thankfully things are much smoother and gives a reassuring thud and seems to be 
consistent 




Some more pondering and I figured that I might as well try figuring out how to index to
the maximum distance,
as the jack needed to be shifted off center with the plate sitting so far away from the knee.
This was less than preferable, as it means more of the jack needed to be under the
table and more chance for the knee to foul against the jack laterally when swung away,
and also wanting to get a reference on two points of the jack gives better registration.

(shouldn't have ground a bevel on the bottom of the plate)
So why not make the thing as versatile as it should be, since I need to sort that wee gap.
Figured out a way, more work than planned, but what the heck, it'll be interesting!






Tom


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## Ttrees

Got most of this done, just some adjustments needed yet.
This seemed about the best way to align things, after briefly fumbling about with a plumbline unsuccessfully.

It was about here when I realised that I have a bit more runout than was apparent before.
Spent a few days looking at various videos on the matter, and done some investigating,
might have to revisit this matter later. 

Without having an indicator, I done my best with a rubber mallet and a long drill,
which was simply rolled on a flat bench to check for straightness.































Broke a tap not supporting the work properly, and my chuck fell out drilling the first hole for the slot, made a doofus move and picked up the wrong bit 12mm instead of 10mm




so is oversize but thankfully not important.
Need to fettle things a bit more yet, eager to see if this will work well, atall or the opposite 

Hopefully see soon

Tom


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## Ttrees

Thinking the rest would be easy, I plodded onwards....





Just a wee bit of adjustment needed to make that parallel with the column, _might as well make it work, if it's going to atall



_
Gaah went way too far, and it wouldn't bend back without turning to a pigs ear.
Here's a good way to break a clamp or two




At least I get to tell ya'll that the newer liddle clamps have very soft castings, compared to the old which snapped...
(thankfully not the good part with the thread, been thinking about making these longer, so will have these to work on.)




Got this about half right at this point,




But things needed more persuasion with some hammers...
I miss having an angle grinder, hopefully a good deal crops up soon locally




That will do for now, I expect I'd need to get the drill running with very little runout to achieve greater tolerances.








Only a few wee bits and bobs to do now it's half decent to test out.
Hopefully it works, whether it cancels out the runout, keeps the chuck from going out of center,
or just making entry less troublesome on this plastic, yet to find out.
Need to do a good clean up and that first.

Cheers for looking
Fingers crossed

Tom


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## Ttrees

Not done any drilling yet, as seeing how this was working.
Pleased to say it seems consistent, so will be having another go soon enough.
Got the other printer roller component from me folks, so have some more stock should things not work out.

Didn't make any proper bracket for the scissor jack, as I might have a play around with
a bottle jack instead sometime, it might inspire more jiggery should the need arise.
A world of possibility when there is a fixed point!

Still using a pair of clamps to keep things put for now, as I really need to make a proper top and bolt the drill to it.

Bit of an odd looking approach to mount the vise backwards, but cannot get both clamps on otherwise without remounting the vise on the base plate.




Two turns of the jack before untightening the knee





and making sure the sliding bracket is bottomed out on the jack.





Hopefully this might even counter any runout to a good extent, as I don't have a metalworking lathe to remachine MT's and go messing about down that massive rabbit hole.

I guess it might debatable as to exactly which is more troublesome in this operation! 

Lining up the drill in the hole perfectly, but with an eccentric possibility,
meaning the ole isn't lined up atall!
Or...
A perfectly lined up hole, but with an eccentric chuck or other workings of the machine.
Could be a case of half a dozen of one, lol!
Eager to see how things fair out.

All the best

Tom


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## Alpha-Dave

Ah ha!

I think I now understand what you are trying to do; instead of using the drill press’s quill to drive the drill bit into the cylinder, you are leaving the drill bit in the ‘home’ position, and using the jack to raise the workpiece (and the whole table) into the drill bit, like a Milling Machine.

I have not heard of that being done before, but I can see how that potentially could be more accurate than having the quill run-out. Accuracy here would rely on the vertical travel of the table up the column being perfectly parallel to the drill bit, which would rely on the column-to-head interface being machined to a high tolerance as any discrepancy there will be amplified further down the column


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## Inspector

I know you have mentioned a hydraulic jack a number of times. I wouldn't recommend one simply because you won't have much feel and could easily bend or break things. I would look for/or make a screw jack (have one from my 1990 Nissan pickup that went to the scrap yard). They have a better feedback so you would be less likely to graunch things.

Pete


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## Ttrees

@Alpha-Dave the drill is still going to be used as normal, 
just the table, or knee if you will
(I haven't looked for a diagram to have a better word for this part) 
is supported with the jack, but also provides a stop.
Not having attempted to change from say a 5mm bit to say 30mm,
involving dropping the table, is likely where the confusion is coming from.

I haven't messed about with that yet..._as it is now, yet anyway _
as it would involve making a block to fit between "the knee" and the "lifting pad" of the scissor jack, since the position of it is likely to change if moved,
which brings me onto @Inspector 's comments on the bottle jack idea.
_Should it be able to travel whilst remaining parallel with the column ?_
that would eliminate the need for a wee block.

Now onto the problematic part which you mention Pete.
I guess worth questioning folks what they think, i.e

With some practice, could one figure out how much of a shim one could put in-between,
should things be consistent with a certain amount of force,
and at that, if this remains the same throughout the travel of it,
as it sounds like it's not so easy to just sight it on the money without going backwards and forwards getting it set the right height.

Noted about the old style scissor jacks from the 80's & 90's, I've been lookin for a while for these!
This one doesn't seem too bad though, a lot more stout than it looks, and has remained good with testing for about 10 stops/bumps anyway, (about as good as I could hope those clamps to hold up for)

Might get the chance to have a good look at these soon enough, as I see large types of these going for 20 or 30 quid, should I ever need it a used one might crop up.
Can likely make do with some sorta block for now.

Cheers
Tom


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## Ttrees

That's not to say this is guaranteed to work yet, as I have yet to do any type of load test on this, hence my reason not to make a plate for the base of the jack.

I've yet to see if I can get the lifting pad to remain in the same location with the downward force of drilling, and also the lateral force of the bump.
I suppose it's still possible for the index to change after the first drilling operation.
I might try something like clamping something long onto the pad and seeing if it changes position yet, if I had a cone of sorts I could provide that force without graunching things up (new word for me)

This is possibly where the bottle jack shines, so that should explain things better.

Thanks
Tom


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## Ttrees

Uploaded a wee video so ye can see what I'm on about
Not got round to any more testing yet, I'll likely redo the video when I get round to it,
since you can't really see anything, and not used to its full potential either,
which seems possibly the source of the confusion

Still seems like a bottle jack might be a good call for this?


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## Ttrees

Hello again.

Duly noted by Inspector on a metalwork forum, that glazing on the grinder wheel was from my first attempt at making these spacers from a case hardened lump of steel,
which absolutely ate my rougher wheel for breakfast , but on the finer wheel it seems to be workable, (pity I didn't know that before, as I will need be extra careful now whilst grinding my plane irons and chisels).






After experimenting for a wee bit the results seemed good enough to make this a bit more user friendly.
Not got around to cleaning and painting, just cured my questionable OCD.





Started on making a mounting plate so I can have some more surety 






Love this big old file, the brick a brack man wasn't going to charge me anything for it, but took a fiver for it,
left outside, I thought it was too far gone and took a gamble that it may come in useful, seems to be getting _better_ after a bit of old motor oil!
was pretty smelly for a while though






Sorry no photo of draw filing with block along the length like sharpening a card/cabinet scraper.
I've been experimenting with filing along the length, both orientations of the block and file and in both directions makes 4 steps
of approaching the work,and not causing any twist.

Just noting that I've being becoming fond of using the block on edge rather than the face, much easier for some reason.












Nothing perfect here but the plate made nicely and (runner?) made for mounting onto the base and is quite solid.
Thought I'd just make sure that my measurements were OK after one runner done and the other tacked on one end.
Got stuck and things went slightly ar5eways.






Next job was both attempting to cure my OCD as I was having to skew the jack too much, and figured I could also scoot the
jack to the right and get a preferable location for drilling holes for fixing the jack onto the plate.






And a wee bit more scraping, not going overboard though as I will wait until I give the machine a refurbishment first, which I will get around to sometime, hopefully later rather than sooner _*???*_






Don't have a piccy, but was unhappy with the table location, as the bit was too far to the left of the hole.
Thought I'd just tack some washers onto the pad component to sort, but me wee 50 quid parkie welder had other ideas RAAAH!
Decided to make the plate thicker after a tack started to give in, and a mess was made of the old one.






Now I've got it where I want it, favouring the other side of the hole, and should be future-proofed should the jack have a bit more give in it than appears, and if not can file a wee bit off again.

It'll be easier to keep an eye on it, now that I won't mind if it moves.





Must clean it up a bit by adding a bevel as it looks a bit disproportionate, hopefully that will do the trick nicely, and a lick of paint to hide my welds











Just have to tidy up and paint now, before I can test.

Tom


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## Ttrees

Most of this is done now, could do a bit more scraping but was happy enough to test out.





Done some inspecting of the Morse tapers, sledgehammer head "hardy hole" was great to use for getting out the chuck, as it was very stuck.
Blued everything with permanent marker expecting to possibly see something apparent, not so,
just trial and error using the long drill getting it the best I could,
and two wee file marks to align it again.
(shoulda wiped off the marker ink,I was to find out)

That done and everything properly affixed, I was getting some inconsistency, tracked down to the
(knee?) so drill and tapped for a pair of bolts for a hopefully permanent 90 degrees.





Will try editing this to explain, kinda messed up my experiment as I didn't have the table
low enough and clanged into the vice jaws.
Shoulda had it a few mm lower, doh!




And to add insult to injury
I proceeded to do what should win ultimate numpty move of the week,
and test out the jig _after moving the scissor jack_! 

(Ideally one would want a tight fitting hole for indexing the bit from, and not a tapered bore from a printer roller, so some luck required/not a guarantee)

Seeing as the adjustment of the jack alters, I should have set the table height to suit the large bit first, which I forgot lol
This is where the plate can come into play, although need to do a bit more work on that yet, more eager to get on with the job.
i.e if I had the jack lower down I could have been using the plate to reach for the bottom of the jack.

If you're managing to understand my rambelings, you might question the indexing plates
use in this way, and the knee?/undertable support is omited!
I did use a wee shim of timber, but not sure if it was a good idea or not.
Certainly for my scissor jack, is too skewed to use for support, since pressing down would shift the index, so this is interesting to find out more about that.
Might keep an eye out for a bottle jack as I'm guessing this wouldn't be an issue?
I don't mind using a shim.

Some pictures
Loose old belts made this take a bit.





As said either a numpty move on my part, or the bit not a great fit, and edges well chowdered up from testing also.





Seems to have copied the above which one can't fault the jig for.




Needed a bit of filing to be a tight press fit needing knocking off with a mallet,
Very pleased I could get the error out, just about!








This is definitely a good enough fit to get the measurments I'm after.
Can face one side on the lathe now, bore is enough centered to turn faces on the mandrel.
(original face on one side bang on, so it is less guesswork)
and test the depth of the part more accurately than before, for documentation purposes.
remove again and bevel the part.
This might explain, too much variance in first attempt underneath.










Tom


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## Ttrees

Here's my entry, should anyone start a doofus of the week award type thread.
Don't know what came over me to ruin the edge of the ole? 

So I am still in the dark if it works or not, and whether I only just got lucky this time! lol.


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## Ttrees

Hello again
Since had a few more attempts of making this jig work.
Two nice faces to mark from on either side to start with..










NO DICE, TRY AGAIN!

Well what could be the issue here...
Getting super consistent results indexing, but dynamic testing proving otherwise.
I'm guessing the most likely issue is when the table is deflecting, the jig being tight against the jack
is following the scissor jack contact/lifting plate.
I've mucked around with a shim, I've butted the indexing plate down to the arm of the jack
(potential support) both being unsuccessful, 
and reckon the plate is better not bottoming out on the arm of the jack.
No point in ruining another bit whilst knowing this, and maybe something else I don't know yet,

Two pics of before slight altercation...









Just mucking around yet, seems the way this might work, is...
That the jack stays at the exact same height,
and if it must be altered, then the shim (door handle spindle bar seemed adequate)
needs to be adjusted.
Fair enough, I can get the mating surfaces perfect to deal with most of what might be held in the vice, or work of that height sitting on the table.

With that said,the big question is,
Does the contact plate from the car jack, need to be parallel with the column, or was it just causing an error as it was skewed to favour the table walking away from the column, due to the weight of drilling.
That's the only thing I can come up with, since indexing was working well,
i.e the cutting lips were not catching anywhere on the hole.

See underneath to see contact plate now slightly skewed the other way, if atall.
A small change in adjustment of the jack, and it makes a big difference.









Bit of faffing now to prep these, hole too small on one side to get a mandrel through.
Most of the cylinder is bored larger though, so don't have to come up with a solution for that ,
if need be.





At least I'm getting better results turning the stuff
Well pleased with that









Hoping I get to use this piece, fingers crossed.
Keen to see if the little change makes a difference.

Tom


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## Ttrees

Seems @Phill05 might have been onto something, 
Having mucked about with some more tests, it seems my clamps are proving to
be a pain in the bum.
Not sure if it's because of my shenanigans or not, but seems I could improve matters 
by making some more holes in the vice plate, and maybe some inserts for the table.

Whilst pondering about this a bit, another thing struck me about more possible 
methods I could attempt without the clamps being in the way!


Seems properly mounting the plate might sort all out, and if something else is the solution to this bodgery, then a possible solution to making a hole oversize... possibly even accurately,
if you're thinking what I'm thinking, eh?


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## Ttrees

Gonna make some solution to mount this now, should that be the solution,
but wouldn't it be ironic _if_ my original title was actually suggesting the answer!


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## Ttrees

Made a start on making hold downs for the drill table




Did I mention that i REALLY like this file?




First time properly gang filing to some sort of tolerance(ish)
Not going mad as these are only clamps, so no scraping nor switcharoos of the plates.
Approached from four sides of the work, and really trying to hollow the centre,
but anyone who's done this kinda thing before will know that's not really possible to have a hollow doing this in both axis, as abrasion always favours the edges.






So takes a bit of time to gradually take down a high spot, and back to focusing in the centre,
and canceling out the error in the other axis, say after each dozen or so.




I found it helpful not to lift the file on the backstroke when I got to about this stage 




And finishing on the longest surface, any high corners should be long gone by the time this is done,
and one would be going back and fourth in the centre a few times.






Basically If you've just filed a facet on the far edge, then you need to approach the work from the other axis/90 degrees and scoop out the centre.
If you immediately try and remove a high corner you will tip the file because you cannot file out the centre in both directions
You have to make sure there is a noticeable scoop from the centre of the worst area before touching it before feathering onto that high corner, but you can only do a bit, as you need correct that.
Eventually getting to a stage where you can file from both centres only.

More lessons to be learned doing a square compared to a rectangle, but trickier, glad I made a start at this first.





Last face to file was the mill scaled rough edge of the old plate which was notably harder than the hacksaw cut edges.
This took ages to file and arguably was a lot worse for the file than not lifting it off the work on the back stroke.
I will definitely take the bench grinder to that if/when doing this again.






Finished the filing work for now, be interesting to get the tolerances better if it were something else.
I suppose I'd scrape the centre out with a narrow file, maybe a bit of second cut filing, scrape centre again and lap, with possibly some switcharoo of the plates going on would most likely get them perfect.
Not needed for this kinda thing though.

That's all for now
Will have to wait until it rains until I can get back at this.

Hopefully I can get away without needing something to tip them,
thinking I can just grind a bit of a taper into the small plates,
since I figure a bit more surface area would be more suitable for the large slots in the drill table.

Thinking tapping these wouldn't make sense, but am open to suggestions, might mock up one 
with a smaller bolt before drilling to correct size and see.

Thanks to Tom for the inspiration, even though they won't be as nice, they should hopefully do the trick.

Cheers
Tom


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## Ttrees

Finished making these holddowns,well enough for testing anyway.
I didn't make any relief on the underside, might do yet but it seems solid as frig so far.

Forgot I had this wee clamp, as I was using it for the table crank for a good while.






Bought some new 2.5mm rods for the job, seems I could have used the low setting as I melted the edges of these blocks.



Probably be just right for something with a bit more mass, but not for these wee blocks.
Excuse my terrible welding, as that was likely more than half the problem.






Still enough reference to get some holes made, and definitely upped my skills slightly today!

One can get a vastly superior centre punched, whilst using an anvil (sledgehammer) sitting on the bench leg for support, I just use a masonry nail for the job, was thinking of buying a fancy thing, seems no need now.
Stopped using wee tiny drills for getting spot on, in favour for a somewhat larger bit
whats short and stout from grinding.
These holes were difficult to tap, using a ratcheting tap wrench with 4" tommy bar.
Swapping the handle for one probably 12" was a hundred times easier, but not to be used until one gets the thread started, since the short one is less obstructive when needing to lean down on the tool.

I didn't have any fancy bolts with shoulders for a tight fit, so tapping and thread bar it was.




Seems like the vice will stay put now, and no fouling of any clamps might be a two for one, or possibly even _three for one_!
Now that wouldn't be bad for a 40 pound drill!
Thinking I need to get some belts for me machine at this stage, not wanting to make life difficult for myself, but as is begs the question of how accurate this possibly could be.
if you can't make it accurate then make it adjustable kinda thing.
Eager to see how I get along with this, might try on some scrap, though some more things need doing first.

If that works great, if not, nearly prepared to start getting on another step of accuracy,
have a once over of the drill again, might be a deep rabbit hole, but hopefully can come out with wallet unscathed.

All the best
Tom


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## Ttrees

Thought I'd give an update on this after some experimentation
I really thought the gib or whatever you call it I made recently would have made things perfect.




Pity I'm all out of this stock to do some more experiments with.
Spent some time doing various things of interest,
spinning the table I hoped would align everything or even be utilized for enlargement to some degree, well not without more looking into, which I didn't venture down as of yet.
An interesting proposition,which may be made to work, but not without some in depth looking into as all will move when cinched down, and that's even when the table fairly tight and difficult to spin in the first place.




Some initial tests attempting to get used to the method, or jig....
debatable, as one could just use a wall or vertical thing/big square clamped up
for this method, should you agree the scissor jack can be eliminated out of the variable part and can be seen as sound...
(not that I suggest the car jack is suitable )
I reckon I could have progressed a bit with a bottle jack instead, and looked into table support

Just ironing out some niggles and describing the setup and jig in this second video


The third is somewhat less informative and another shot of getting used to the method,
slightly differing in the lateral pressure on the table whilst locking down


Some things I left out in the last like support for the vise, which likely needs some inspection,
but that would only be after figuring out what the issue is now.
Only getting back to this recently and having another go at producing the results I attained in the most recent.










Trouble was the rest of the stock was bored to a size bit I didn't have, and too skinny a hole for a mandrel to dress the bottom.
Just some more wee variables needed sorting and it might be possible to index off the the previously drilled stock, and swap out the work out in the vise, which didn't work as I hadn't been aligning the jaws to one side due to the vise design, which I guess is being blamed for the variables but I think something else is at fault to a larger extent.




So the swapping in the vise didn't work, I did take out the bit which I can't say helped anything with the matter, and done some quick runout experiments regarding chucking the bit,
and am pretty sure spinning the bit in jaws in the direction of the cut will likely align the bit better than not doing so.


What was noticeable with the vise aligned and cinched down, bar the vise jaws, is the v block bobing a bit moving left to right and choosing either left or right depending on rotation of the chuck being turned, so perhaps this relates as to which side the stop should be,
if wanting to swap the work in the jaws.









After another two failed attempts, I was down to the last piece, so thought I better try everything.
What I did learn that the work was deforming, and actually fused to the block!
So back to both v blocks at least, and some shimming of the vise.

And I reckon better results can be had *not *applying _any_ lateral pressure of the table when locking it down.
So not trusting another swap in the vise jaws, I attempted this chancy move on this taller final piece, too short for making two of them, I thought I'd be able cut a mistake off and try again.
Drilling to the next size went well, and provided a suitable fit to index off.
Partially eliminating the lathe factor out here, well as of yet, it maybe the key to finding out why this hole didn't go extremely well, as I simply need more stock to figure out what the issue is.

Would be nice to revisit this, the table support maybe to blame, as it seems the most discrepancies was 12 and 6 o'clock, maybe down to the vise, but I reckon more so, the table flexing at this point.
Slightly disappointing but I reckon good enough to do some hand work to still achieve a press fit on the shaft.
Definitely most pleased with the third video, even though it would seem to be lacking.
Some more head scratching to do it would seem.








At least one of the pieces spins well on the mandrel, have a bunch of others one or two which might be as good as the last one.

Now to figure out how I made those chamfers to contact only the inner race of the bearings lol


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