# pocket hole screws



## andythorntonjoinery (9 Jan 2019)

Just bought a krek K4 jig and was wondering if you have to use their specific screws? I will probably use theirs anyhow but was wondering if anyone knows of alternatives. I looked online for buying in bulk and only place I have found is amazon who do boxes of 3000 for about £80 shipped in from USA taking about a fortnight to deliver.
Any advice welcome!


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## Fergal (9 Jan 2019)

I have the UJK pocket hole jig from Axminster. I have tried using pan head wood screws instead of the proper ones, but it didn't work very well. The pocket screws from Axminster are not too expensive and do work well. They should also work on your Kreg jig, although it would be worth checking first.

https://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technol ... d-ax885008


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## nev (9 Jan 2019)

I'm sure we used to use Trend pocket hole screws (square drive) with the kreg Jigs in a previous life.
https://www.swanseatimber.co.uk/fixings ... 13828.html


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## Jamied (9 Jan 2019)

I have the older version kreg jig and have been using the axminster pocket screws for ages and they work fine.


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## Steve Maskery (9 Jan 2019)

Yes, both work well, it's just that you need a Robertson 2 bit for the Kreg, whilst the UJK ones use a PH2 (might be a PZ2, can't remember, something "normal", though).


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## Eric The Viking (9 Jan 2019)

The ones with the square socket are officially Robertson (headed) screws. It's a Canadian design and very good indeed. You can get them (as Kreg pocket hole screws) cheaply from Amazon, also the drivers with a standard hex shank to fit in a power drill or driver. Get the LONG version of the bits as shorter ones won't fit well inside cabinets (you can't get the electric tool's chuck into the corner at the right angle!).

There are (at least) two different thread forms that Kreg sell. The coarser one is intended for softwood and presumably anything with a more open grain, and the finer one for hardwoods. I have tried the finer thread in softwood and it doesn't grip as well, so now I carry both sorts. I don't think they are expensive considering how good they are. 

To answer your first question, in my opinion the flanged head makes a big difference, as it spreads the clamping force of the screw across a wider area (and don't forget this is basically pulling in end-grain).

I don't use my Kreg kit much but I'm really grateful to have it when I need it.

E.

PS: I think the coarser pitch is also intended for chipboard, but I think the pocket hole system joints (anybody's, not just Kreg's) are too weak for that.


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## Cordy (9 Jan 2019)

1.25 inch Kreg screws, cheap enough HERE


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## Steve Maskery (9 Jan 2019)

Eric The Viking":2x4tcid3 said:


> Get the LONG version of the bits as shorter ones won't fit well inside cabinets



+1
Or at least a medium-length one, as a normal bit-holder won't fit in the holes very well.


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## Distinterior (9 Jan 2019)

Steve Maskery":2b5spurf said:


> Yes, both work well, it's just that you need a Robertson 2 bit for the Kreg, whilst the UJK ones use a PH2 (might be a PZ2, can't remember, something "normal", though).



T20 Torx heads from UJK I think Steve.....
At least the last box I had from them were..... This thread has reminded me to order some more as I'm down to my last few!


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## Steve Maskery (9 Jan 2019)

Distinterior":upy8iluk said:


> Steve Maskery":upy8iluk said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, both work well, it's just that you need a Robertson 2 bit for the Kreg, whilst the UJK ones use a PH2 (might be a PZ2, can't remember, something "normal", though).
> ...



Really? Oh, OK. I wonder what I've got then. I'll have a look tomorrow.


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## Peterm1000 (9 Jan 2019)

I use regular screws. Never had an issue, but don't drive them tight or you will split the wood


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## sunnybob (10 Jan 2019)

I'm somewhat amazed. I've thought about getting a pocket hole jig but had no idea I had to have special screws.
Why?
:?: :?:


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## ColeyS1 (10 Jan 2019)

Peterm1000":370hb27h said:


> I use regular screws. Never had an issue, but don't drive them tight or you will split the wood


Me to! 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Eric The Viking (10 Jan 2019)

It has been discussed at length on here, and there are several points of view.

I think you would be sensible to use the suggested screws, for maximum joint strength and much less risk of joint damage. There are others on here who even swear by ornery countersunk jobbies.

It's almost a _[shsssh!]sharpening[/]_ debate.

If I dare sum up:

The joint is pulled together _almost, but not quite_, at the correct angle by the screw(s). Even in a correctly-made PHJ there are forces trying to move the joint out of alignment when the piece is finished. _almost, but not quite_ means that there are, admittedly small, forces at right angles to the "hold it tight" one. If not well controlled these can cause misalignment, gapping, or even joint failure. This is why you should clamp the joint tight before driving the screws. Aside: I have tried _not_ doing this when in a rush to make something that doesn't matter (e.g. a clamping frame): it didn't end well.
Glue may be used, but at the end of the day, it's an end-grain-to-face-grain joint with very little glue area. It is a fundamentally weak joint, relying on the material strength much more than most other jointing systems.
 The head of the screw is basically going through end grain and pulls on it _along its shearing/splitting axis_, to hold the joint together. The thread end of the screw might be better, as it's into face grain, but that depends on the thickness of that component. The thickness limits the screw depth*.
Any countersunk screw head in this context acts as a wedge, trying to split the thin and weak end grain between the pocket hole itself and the mating part of the joint.

If you are not stressing the joint, for example just using PHJ to hold a face frame together or onto a strong carcase, the above probably doesn't matter. On the other hand, if you are using pocket hole joinery close to its realistic maximums for joint strength, and/or there are reasons why the joint might be stressed in use (note that PHJ often uses no glue at all, relying on the screws alone), I'd say using the right screws can be critical. 

As I said in an earlier post, the reason for the flange is to get as big a bearing area onto the end grain as possible, and to not cause a wedge with the associated splitting forces.

OK, tin hat on head, heading for the bunker now... (hammer) 

E. (who likes pocket hole joinery and uses it, despite its limitations)

*Kreg chose screws with an axial cut down the point, so they can get closer to the visible surface of the face-grain material without blowing out the other side -- useful when using the system in chipboard, etc. It's another good reason for using their screws - you can get the maximum screw depth possible when doing carcases.


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## novocaine (10 Jan 2019)

when I use pocket holes (not all that often but sometimes they are useful) I use normal screws with a washer on the back. I've got a massive box of dirt cheap washers that lives in my screw boxes. fairly sure it is cheaper than the kreg screws but really it's so I don't have to order in something special and hold them in stock for the rare occasion I do use them.


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## sunnybob (10 Jan 2019)

I think youve just talked me out of it. Ta :lol:


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## andythorntonjoinery (11 Jan 2019)

Thanks for all the responses. extremely helpful! I have ordered official kreg screws in bulk pack from the states, should arrive today as I couldn't find a uk supplier who sells the large quantity boxes of 3000. managed to find a local store that sells boxes of 250 to get me going and I must say that I am very impressed with the strength of joint using only two screws. 
I am using them to make ladder frames for shelving out a stock room. However I am sure I will use it for plenty more in the near future!
Thanks again,
Andy.


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## sunnybob (11 Jan 2019)

Are you taking into account the weight loading those shelves will take? A couple screws either end seem a bit flimsy for shelving.


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## andythorntonjoinery (18 Jan 2019)

yes I have taken that into account thanks. I screwed from two sides as I was using 45mm square timber, using 2.5 inch screws. and glued each joint as well.


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