# Dating this Record Vice



## madra (14 Nov 2015)

I understand it's probably not possible to narrow it down too much, but what decade would this likely to have come from? 50s, 60s, 70s?







Or is it even possible to say this?

Can't find a whole lot of information dating Record vices, most of the information is on planes.

Thanks


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Nov 2015)

Pre '61 iirc. Have look at posts in the last few days, there's a cross reference somewhere.


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## sploo (15 Nov 2015)

This (record-vice-history-t68453.html) would hint at pre-1970s.


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## AndyT (18 Nov 2015)

I have had a look for the registered design number, thinking that it would give some clues.
The database at the IPO is only useful for current designs, but the National Archives holds most of the older records.
The entry here: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1741169 shows that RD 664709 was in a range of numbers used between 1914 and 1919, suggesting that the *earliest* possible date would be somewhere in that range. (It does not give the design registration itself, which has not been digitised.)

Looking at vices in a 1925 Melhuish catalogue I found an entry showing a vice just about readable as having that number and the Record name on it, which confirms that the design had reached the market place by then. 

Of course, the Record designs continued to be made for many decades. At some time, we know that the design must have changed from your pattern, with the RD number across the top, to the later pattern with the model number much larger, as shown here https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4651253942/in/photostream/.

So when did that change happen? I don't have a full set of Record catalogues but I do have a general tool catalogue from Gardiner's of Bristol in 1940 which shows your pattern. I also have a 1957 Tyzack catalogue which shows the later pattern without the RD number. So, on the evidence so far, your vice could be between 1914 and 1957. Not an exact answer, but a bit closer than "quite old" which would have been my first answer!

(I do realise that catalogue pictures were a sort of general purpose library of images, and not 100% accurate representation of what was actually offered for sale, but at this distance they are probably a good enough indicator for most of us.)


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## Monkey Mark (18 Nov 2015)

"Dating this record vice" 

Pretty strange confession if you ask me. Though it does show your dedication to woodworking I guess D


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## 8squared (20 Nov 2015)

Interesting reading... I wouldn't of thought a database would be kept for such a thing....

It made me go out and drag mine out from under the bench... It's also a 664709 but without the quick release.


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## Torquil (15 Dec 2016)

Although I'm no authority on production dates, I would date this one back to the the 1930s or a bit earlier, the registered number was discontinued in the 1940s. 

I have a good collection of these vices and see subtle changes made over the decades, such as thicker slide bars and a different type of quick release trigger mechanism on early variants.


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## thetyreman (15 Dec 2016)

nice vice! I think the oldest ones look the best


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## Vann (16 Dec 2016)

So there are at least three designs out there: 
- The first with the registered design number, and ribs at 90 degrees and 45 degrees either side.
- The second without the RD No. but ribs the same;
- The third with two vertical ribs and a horizontal rib.

Things like quick release were options - not an indication of era (though I think the non-quick release models were dropped a long time ago).

From what AndyT writes, the first type with the RD No. was in production by 1925. And from what Torquil writes it was discontinued in the 1940s (introducing the second type). From my own experience (purchasing a No.52 in the mid-1970s) the third type (horizontal rib) had replaced the second type before then - but how long before I don't know.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Jake (16 Dec 2016)

My two are a later version yet


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## sploo (16 Dec 2016)

Vann":csktbhdj said:


> From what AndyT writes, the first type with the RD No. was in production by 1925. And from what Torquil writes it was discontinued in the 1940s (introducing the second type). From my own experience (purchasing a No.52 in the mid-1970s) the third type (horizontal rib) had replaced the second type before then - but how long before I don't know.
> 
> Cheers, Vann.


IRC I'd heard 1960s for the horizontal/vertical design (I scored an eBay one a while back - like Jake's). Works well - still has the cover over the screw with the oil hole. I believe the cover was removed in later versions.


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## Cordy (16 Dec 2016)

Bought this Record 52 1/2 recently on the Bay
Seller estimates manufacture at circa 1980s
Fantastic condition


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2016)

The round boss would suggest to me that it is a well restored older one - from 1961 (afaik) the boss is flat on the front.


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## sploo (16 Dec 2016)

phil.p":d4ksgwh2 said:


> The round boss would suggest to me that it is a well restored older one - from 1961 (afaik) the boss is flat on the front.


Indeed. My (assumed) 1960s model has the flat boss, so the above should be an older one (and therefore a good find)!


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## Cordy (16 Dec 2016)

Cheers Phil & Sploo 

I'm even more chuffed now  

Cost £60 plus £15 postage, worth it for me

My new years resolution; look after it like the previous owners obviously did

1. No swinging on the handle with a metre long tube to test my Gran's Gallstone 

2. Keep the jaws in good nick -- no hacksawing etc


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Dec 2016)

When you fit it, set if down  12mm - `8mm - you can cap the wooden lining with another piece of wood so avoiding doing it.


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## swb58 (16 Dec 2016)

Cordy":ngsl2p28 said:


> Cheers Phil & Sploo
> 
> I'm even more chuffed now
> 
> ...



If I ever see a vice with a bent handle I always think 'What brainless silly person did that!'

I'm looking at this thread with interest as I acquired (cough) a 52 back in the summer. It and another one were fitted to an old school type bench that was so rotten it only need a wiggle to fall off. Took a lot of time to unseize it but it's going well now. Thinking of giving it to the DIL as I'm not going to wear it out!


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## A3051422 (30 May 2017)

Hello folks, just picked this up for a ton (£).
Old fella mentioned it was a wartime one but I thought WW2....reading this thread puts it at ww1. Is this the case?
What do u good people think .......it just looks a bit tidy for 100 years old
Dave


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## DoctorWibble (30 May 2017)

These Record 34s are very good vices. Your one has been painted and maybe given new jaws too.

I'm not sure when Record introduced this range but it had a very long production run and so they're fairly common on Ebay. I would guess your one dates from 1930's to 1950s. The RD number is at least a little later than the one shown on the previous page while the round boss was almost certainly dropped with other rounded bosses in the early sixties. Modernity was all the rage then and older design cues were ruthlessly eliminated from nearly all products. 

The whole retro thing would only came much later after everyone had long since covered all their panelled doors with hardboard. Until then it was called old fashioned and was the kiss of death to any product so labelled.


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## A3051422 (30 May 2017)

Great thank you that makes sense., on the other side it is written "record steel"
Only got it as threaded the half screw on my 23 which too has a round boss but no RD number


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## DoctorWibble (30 May 2017)

An even better buy. Most 34's are iron. You could probably actually use that anvil without breaking the vice!

I guess if the RD number was dropped before the round boss then your vice would be unlikely to be at the later end of my guessed date range. But its also possible that the steel version used an old mould (with RD number and license to hit with a hammer) up to the end. Often design changes were prompted by moulds wearing out but if fewer Steel ones were made the old moulds may have had plenty of life left in them and perhaps could've remained in use after RD numbers were dropped from other models. That is assuming they did use separate moulds and those markings weren't created by inserts which is maybe yet another possibility.

The only way to really narrow it down is to find catalogues which feature your vice or versions of it.


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## A3051422 (30 May 2017)

That's some wise thinking! Many thanks
Dave


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## A3051422 (30 May 2017)

Found this on a welding thread:


Member
Single digit numbers 0-8 General Mechanics vices, unbreakable nut, no quick release, patent 196858, reg des 666598, an S after the digit were swivel versions (swivel patent 125707)
14-16 Fabricated steel unbreakable quick release vices (appear in 1960 catalogue) add a P for non QR (16 disappears 1971)
21-28 Fitters vices, cast iron, quick release. Also available with swivel apart from the 28.
30-33 Non QR pearlitic iron vices with greater jaw depth and further opening than normal. (appears in 1971/72) These look nothing like the 34-36 vices
34-36 Filers and fitters vice, quick release (non QR add a P), swivel also available. Jaw and slide sloped for better access. Unbreakable steel according to catalogue 
46-49 Dockyard/foundry vice, cast iron and massive but look similar to the 34-36 vices. No 49 weighs 250lb
74-75 All steel garage combination vice with anvil.
80 clamp on table vice very similar to the garage vice but much smaller, cast iron with steel slide.
83-84 quick release heavy duty steel vice (post 1935)
110-114 Heavy duty vice with quick release, cast steel, non quick release same model no but with a P at the end
242-246 Machine vice for milling/drilling, heavy duty.
412-414 Machine vice with swivelling jaw.
506-508 1/2 American style heavy chipping vice, cast iron.
516-518 1/2 American style heavy chipping vice cast steel
631-634 American style combination vices, available with swivel
643-645 Machine vice for milling/drilling, heavy duty, grooved jaws to hold round stock vertical or horizontal.(post 1935)
703-704 Record blacksmith leg vices

Nippy Drill vice

After a certain date the steel vices were changed to pearlitic/malleable/sg/nodular iron

I'm bound to have missed some from the above (I've not included any of the woodworking ones or anything modern).

EDIT: Just remembered there are also the SQ series of vices that are similar to the standard mechanics vices but have a quick release that works by undoing them 1 turn.


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## A3051422 (30 May 2017)

Here with some catalog shots


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