# I blame fax machines



## RogerS (5 Feb 2005)

Once upon a time, you picked up your pen, wrote a letter to a company, put it in an envelope and posted it. A few days later it got there and they answered it. And a few more days later, their reply landed on your doormat.

There was such a leisurely pace to things and IMHO it was better.

Then some bright spark came along and said 'Hey,look. If I put your letter in this funny whirly thing and do this then your letter is there NOW. And if we wait an hour or so....maybe sooner...hey, here it comes. Lookie, lookie...their reply. Now ain't that great. No more waiting'

And so the 24/7 instantaneous, 'delivery today', 'what do you mean I won't have it tomorrow', 'why haven't you got it in stock' email, spam ridden world arrived.javascript:emoticon(':x')

Ummm.. maybe Alf's got the right idea. Perhaps I should sell me machines.javascript:emoticon(':?')


----------



## Anonymous (5 Feb 2005)

Hi Rsinden

I worked as an engineer in those days and I can asure you that this is a case of _rose tinted spectacles_. It was a *frustrating age *where one could not easily do business and problems remained unsolved for weeks rather than hours.

For example, back in 1989 I built lots of PCs (not for employment) but when I needed a patch for some buggy software, or a hard disk driver (when you bought a hard disk , you couldn't just plug it in and hey pretso!! - same for sound, graphics, mouse.....). I often had to write to a firm in America, or Europe and then await a 5 14" floppy disk in the post - which had often been bent in transit and thus ruined. Now I log on day-or-night and get the patch in seconds.

Whilst I see where your sentiment is coming from, I do not see that the argument holds much merit in the cold light of day 

We move on for the benefit of mankind progress is sometimes good and sometimes bad but it is always progress


----------



## RogerS (5 Feb 2005)

oooh...I have a sense that this one could run :wink: 

I can claim even earlier experience than that! I designed and built my first three computers. The first was a 6800 based homebrew, the next a Z80 and the thirs 6502. But I don't remember much frustration from those days..the only frustration was from some UK manufacturers who assumed that 'they were the only people who knew about these things". But I digress.

How do you define 'progress'? Is Plug'n'play necessarily progress? What about 'featuritis' on most packages? Is that progress? How many people actually use more than 5% of Word? Yet, to support this 'progress' we end up having to make do with huge chunks of code consuming ever more memory and opening up even more security holes.

You state 'business issues could remain unsolved for weeks'...where's the rush? I worked in IT then as well and all I can remember was that things moved on at a more leisurely pace and no-one seemed to get their knickers in a twist because they couldn't get the answer yesterday.

Perhaps it is a broader sense of our time and society...the Now Now Now society. I want it NOW. I don't want to wait. I don't want to wait to earn the money to by it or for my parents to buy it for me. I will steal the money for it 'cos I want it NOW[/quote]


----------



## Alf (5 Feb 2005)

Once upon a time you could write a letter in the morning and get an answer in the afternoon post... Mind you, once upon a time you could get a Stanley #1 for 12/6 too. I _like_ rose-tinted specs; easily my favourite sort. :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## tim (5 Feb 2005)

I am massively in favour of all progress through any form be it scientific or artistic. What has been highlighted by the increase in speed of information is generally the corresponding decrease in lack of planning.. 

If you knew something was going to take a minimum of 6 weeks to arrive, you needed to think about asking for it at least 6 weeks before you needed it, now the assumption is that everyone is waiting to satisfy their every need 24/7. 

The problem is not the technology but how its used.

T


----------



## RogerS (5 Feb 2005)

Good point Tim and reinforces my own I think re the 'negative' effects of shortening time. :wink:


----------



## tim (5 Feb 2005)

It seems to me that the thing that always slowed business issues down was getting the right senior people together to agree on a decision - could take weeks to sort out diaries. ie again planning and process. God I hate that word, process... and thats why I left industry!

T


----------



## Waka (5 Feb 2005)

Scientific inovation is all well and good in its place, but I have some concerns. 
It doesn't solve the worlds hunger problem, or it hasn't so far. It doesn't stop wars, only makes weapons more sophisticated.

What real benifit to mankind is going to Mars or Jupiter.

And if mobile phones are such an advancement to business, why didn't we see hundreds of travelling salesman outside the old telephone call boxes before the introduction of MP's.

Only my opinion, so don't shoot the messenger.

I'll call for a taxi now.


----------



## tim (5 Feb 2005)

> And if mobile phones are such an advancement to business, why didn't we see hundreds of travelling salesman outside the old telephone call boxes before the introduction of MP's.



Actually we did. Most of the sales guys I used to have working for me would have to do exactly that - queue outside phone boxes - normally at motorway service stations - if the queue was too long they'd either wait or go on to the next one - not exactly productive.

Without being too over the top, if its your opinion then you should be prepared to stand by it not say 'don't shoot the messenger'! You may be the messenger but you also wrote the message :wink: 

And without really wanting to stir up a huge hornet's nets, its a pretty well known fact that a amssive proportion of scientific innovation has come from military development - not good I know but at least some good can come of it.

The food shortages etc etc are sadly I believe down to man's inhumanity to man. It has been ever thus and no amount of invention is going to solve that just reeducation and social acceptance and a lot of time.

T


----------



## Gill (5 Feb 2005)

I'm doing a lovely line in tin helmets right now, courtesy of Alf. Here's a free sample that I'm sure will come in useful as the thread develops:







Gill


----------



## frank (5 Feb 2005)

gill i need one for in your bunker (re the game) a lot of blokes are waving leeks and shouting words i dont understand at me .


----------



## Newbie_Neil (5 Feb 2005)

Hi Frank



frank":2h1no3kr said:


> gill i need one for in your bunker (re the game) a lot of blokes are waving leeks and shouting words i dont understand at me .



Wot, words like "was there a game this evening"?   

Cheers
Neil


----------



## trevtheturner (5 Feb 2005)

Good thread, this. So what exactly is 'progress?' 

Much of business and public services today seems to be 'corporate' which seems to mean that decisions are taken collectively, but then when things go wrong nobody is at fault or to blame.

I chose to opt out of the ME,ME,ME, NOW, NOW, NOW materialistic society when I retired at 48, fourteen years ago. Best decision I ever took! I don't buy anything that I don't have the 'readies' for, so no need to worry about bills dropping through the letterbox. Don't have, or want, Sky, playstation, Ipoddy thingy, etc., but do have a few modern things which are of use to me. (Mobile 'phone I take out only when I think I might need it, but not to be at everybody's beck and call - less than ten have my mobile number! - but obviously appreciate the value of one for those working 'on the road').

So what exactly is 'progress' - us feeding big business? Lots these days seem to want to lend me thousands of pounds or give me credit cards (new car, home improvements, holiday NOW, NOW, and pay back later + lots extra) - for whose benefit? Certainly not mine, and they can go take a running jump! :lol: :lol: 

Cheers,

Trev - living in happy contentment in rural Herefordshire.

(happiness is wanting what you have - not having what you want)


----------



## Anonymous (5 Feb 2005)

When I left school and applied for jobs I had to use a cranky old typewriter to type out my hopeful application. Looking back at some of those old letters from 30 years ago (I do keep one or two momentos) I shudder at the way characters don't line up going across the page, and if you made a typo, well....

One thing I feel we've lost today with our switched on society is that if you apply for a job you never get any response at all - unless you are selected for interview. Now that for me indicates bad courtesy, but the stupid thing is that all those years ago it took someone maybe 15 minutes to type a letter saying "very sorry, you are going to be really disappointed now...", then the envelope, stick a stamp on it and make their way to the out-tray.

Whereas today it takes all of 15 seconds to bring up some standard letter and it's on its way. Progress? Can I have me ball back please and go back to the 1960's?

Andrew


----------



## tim (6 Feb 2005)

I think that Andrew and Trev are saying similar things to me - its not so much the technology - its the users.

T


----------



## Guest (6 Feb 2005)

Do the anti-progress lobby on this thread really believe that times in the past were so good. I can remember when to own a car you had to be fairly wealthy or a doctor,the same for a telephone.People were crippled with polio or died ither thousands from T.B or any number of diseases. The _Good Old Times _were only good if you could afford it.I know the Rose tinted glasses game is fun but in reality there wasn't much rose tinting in my childhood but I did enjoy it all the same.


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2005)

rsinden":25ch05wy said:


> oooh...I have a sense that this one could run :wink:
> 
> I can claim even earlier experience than that! I designed and built my first three computers. The first was a 6800 based homebrew, the next a Z80 and the thirs 6502.



I still have my Sinclzir Z80 in loft, and an old atari  

I like your thread by the way :wink:


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2005)

Waka":1ldkokdg said:


> I'll call for a taxi now.



Shouldn't you be texting for a taxi these days? 

Every where I look people refuse to be alone (texting) or bored (texting). Boredom at a bus stop is good for you, the mind wanders and great thoughts might occur. But NO!!! these days being alone is an excuse to reach for the mobile.
When I used public transport, I read about 4-5 books per week whilst sitting on buses, I educated. entertained and enlightened my self and enjoyed every minute of it. I did not inflict pointless, ridiculously abbreviated messages on friends just because I was on a bus :twisted: 

I see people walking down streets with their hands on those STUPID little mobile phones. Why not be alone for a while :twisted: Look around you or, perish the thought, talk to someone in the flesh!!!!!!

When I was a senior engineer with a company about 20 years ago I had the hugest mobile phone in the history of the world, it must have weighed the same as a brick as it's dimension were very similar! Then we moved to a - car phone - remember those? 
Now these devices helped with our business and I could support my customers far better with them, and this is my point.; for _business use _mobile phones are probably *essential*, but I practically never use my mobile for social stuff and only my family and secretary have the number.

I SEE my friends, I don't text them incessantly

Mobile phones Aaaaarrrggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

Sorry  

Note to self - take medication regularly

Cheers

Tony (who has sent a total of 4 texts!! and hates ,texting grrrrrr)

PS the spell checker doesn't recognise 'texting' :lol: :lol:


----------



## Alf (6 Feb 2005)

I'll second that rant.  

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2005)

Sat in a train coing home from London the other week. Young pimply thing opposite frantically tapping keys on mobile phone for approximately 40 minutes, intersperesed with various beeps and burps. We get off at same station. Young pimply thing is confronted by elderly person, who is obviously parent screaming 'Where the f*ing h*ll have you f*ing been?'. To which young pimply thing replies 'I sent you a text that I'd be late.....'


----------



## trevtheturner (6 Feb 2005)

I'll third it! :wink: 

Cheers,

Trev.


----------



## tim (6 Feb 2005)

> Now these devices helped with our business and I could support my customers far better with them, and this is my point.; for business use mobile phones are probably essential, but I practically never use my mobile for social stuff and only my family and secretary have the number.



My wife is a doctor who works in a highly specialised field which means that her clinics are spread all over the country. She runs these clinics on her own usually using local specialised nurses. The net result is she is often driving late at night on her own in unfamiliar areas. Am I happy she has a mobile? Does she sometimes call me to talk to me when walking back from the train to a badly lit car park just because it makes her feel safer? Not exactly business use but vital to her (and my) way of living and working.

The reason I got my first mobile? Stuck in a massive tail back on the A74 for 6 hours. Late to meet friends for a big get together - everyone was worried sick - oh and i'd got over being bored by hour three!

So please Luddites, get over yourselves - if you don't like texting, don't do it but if others want to then fine. 



> Every where I look people refuse to be alone (texting) or bored (texting). Boredom at a bus stop is good for you, the mind wanders and great thoughts might occur. But NO!!! these days being alone is an excuse to reach for the mobile.
> When I used public transport, I read about 4-5 books per week whilst sitting on buses, I educated. entertained and enlightened my self and enjoyed every minute of it. I did not inflict pointless, ridiculously abbreviated messages on friends just because I was on a bus.
> I see people walking down streets with their hands on those STUPID little mobile phones. Why not be alone for a while Look around you or, perish the thought, talk to someone in the flesh!!!!!!



Dangerous comment Tony. :roll: Stone throwing and glasshouses spring quickly to mind!

One final thought:

A huge number of my mates think I'm pretty sad talking to a bunch of like minded people I've never met on the web in a wood working forum. I don't think its sad, i think its entertaining, stimulating, social and educational and can't understand why others wouldn't want to do it as well.

Still at least its not like texting (its got spellchecker! BTW the spellchecker doesn't recognise the word 'spellchecker', 'spellcheck' or 'recognise' either).

According to your profile Tony - you've sent the equivalent of 1770 texts. However, most texts are c 150 words long max therefore by extrapolation the figure is closer to 3,000. I imagine that you still talk to people as well and see people? How do you know these texters aren't reading books, seeing their friends, educating themselves? Ever used the phrase IMHO? See what I'm saying?

In my day..... :twisted: 

I love the smell of the 21st century in the morning  

Tim

Whose not sure that the rant is over.


----------



## Alf (6 Feb 2005)

tim":17wwdhxl said:


> Not exactly business use but vital to her (and my) way of living and working.


I disagree. She wouldn't be in those situations if it wasn't for her job.



tim":17wwdhxl said:


> The reason I got my first mobile? Stuck in a massive tail back on the A74 for 6 hours. Late to meet friends for a big get together - everyone was worried sick - oh and i'd got over being bored by hour three!


Tim, I can only assume this is deliberate obtuseness to prove your point.



tim":17wwdhxl said:


> A huge number of my mates think I'm pretty sad talking to a bunch of like minded people I've never met on the web in a wood working forum.


They're probably right...



tim":17wwdhxl said:


> According to your profile Tony - you've sent the equivalent of 1770 texts. However, most texts are c 150 words long max therefore by extrapolation the figure is closer to 3,000. I imagine that you still talk to people as well and see people? How do you know these texters aren't reading books, seeing their friends, educating themselves? Ever used the phrase IMHO? See what I'm saying?


I see what you're saying. However I think it's somewhat different to spending your time texting schoolmates you've just seen, workmates you're just about to see etc etc, which seems to comprise the bulk of this behaviour. If, however, Tony has a couple of hundred woodworking friends he regularly sees (pausing only to get out his laptop when he's with them in order to post on this forum, of course) then I would agree your point is valid. There are reasonable grounds for having and using a mobile, I don't think anyone's denying that, but it seems to be taken to extremes. All IMO, natch. :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2005)

Now that, Tim, is a whole new slant on texting that I've never considered! fully agree. 

(oh, and I work for the world's largest telecoms equipment manufacturer, and HATE HATE HATE phones. All phones, not just mobiles. Can't stand the things)


----------



## tim (6 Feb 2005)

> tim wrote:
> Not exactly business use but vital to her (and my) way of living and working.
> 
> I disagree. She wouldn't be in those situations if it wasn't for her job.



Thats partly true - but work is part of life - difficult to draw the distinction - what about if she was off to see some friends instead?



> tim wrote:
> The reason I got my first mobile? Stuck in a massive tail back on the A74 for 6 hours. Late to meet friends for a big get together - everyone was worried sick - oh and i'd got over being bored by hour three!
> 
> Tim, I can only assume this is deliberate obtuseness to prove your point.



What do you mean - that I'm making it up to prove my point? Actually not the case - it was before mobiles were given out routinely as part of work contracts. I was living in Edinburgh and driving to London. The sheer frustration at not being able to contact anyone meant that the following day in London i went out a got a mobile.

In general I don't disagree with the fact that it can be pretty annoying to be surrounded by a whole bunch of people texting but my gripe would be with the group not the texting.
Its also pretty annoying to be surrounded by a bunch of people who are doing something collectively that you aren't involved in - simple psychology of 'in' groups and 'out' groups. Be honest -if they weren't texting each other what would you rather they were doing? Singing songs, writing in the condensation on the windows, hitting each other with schoolbags - because sure as hell they wouldn't be sitting quietly reading or discussing points of philosophy.

Most of the comments in the threads above are thinly disguised comments of disappointment at the 'youth of today' and not about the technology. I felt it only fair to defend some of those points.

I mean really what does it matter if everyone has mobiles? To answer the question honestly (me included) is actually to admit its about how intolerant we are. :wink: 


T

Who can't understand the lyrics anymore in songs - not proper music is it!


----------



## Alf (6 Feb 2005)

tim":2unm39tx said:


> What do you mean - that I'm making it up to prove my point?


Don't be daft. My point was that no-one's saying mobiles don't have their uses, such as letting people know where you are if there's a delay, but the use of them is taken to ridculous extreme. _That's_ what the gripe is about. It does seem to be reaching a point where people are unable to function without their thumb darting from key to key all the time. Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if I thought even a fraction of it was worth the effort of sending. 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Gill (6 Feb 2005)

It's quite cosy in this bunker, isn't it Frank? I wonder what's going on outside...

To be honest, I haven't read the thread on the rugby game. Instead, I've been busy watching workers' bums as foundations are laid for my new workshop. I can hardly wait - it should all be constructed in about a month, then it's just a case of getting wiggly amps supplied, a bit of insulation and cladding, and some varnish and preservative. Not necessarily in that order - the preservative will go on at the first opportunity.

Oh dear, I hope nobody expects me to actually go into the workshop when it's all set up and actually _make_ something (hammer) .

Gill


----------



## frank (6 Feb 2005)

gill, looking at builders bums  thats kinky that is :wink: :wink: 

i am just going to pop my head out of the bunker to look at the rugby :twisted: :twisted: :wink:


----------



## Waka (6 Feb 2005)

> Shouldn't you be texting for a taxi these days



Sorry Tony, that's one thing I've never tried, mind you it does amaze me how the young can adapt the thumb to wiz across those little key pad.

My use of a mobile is very limited and only to let my other half know where I am when travelling.

My pet hate about mobiles is the morons that travel the roads at speed with a mobile glued to their ears, putting other lives at risk. I'm not talking here about "hands free" although a recent report did suggest that this was as bad.

I do a lot of flying and the one thing that I don't understand is the guys that phone up the office repeatedly and say "thought I'd just check to see if there are any messages" or the guys that give a running comentary about getting on and off a plane. 

Maybe the constant use of mobile phones makes people feel important.

Another technological advance that is supposed to help business is the e-mail.
How many people on the forum spend hours just sifting through e-mails on a daily basis (forum not included) to find that out of the 100 in the inbox only 10 are relevant.

welcome to the world of advanced technology.

Gill can I join you in the Bunker



If there is a real business need then it's a useful toy to have, but I suggest that a majority of mobile calls ont he airwaves are drival IMHO.


----------



## tim (6 Feb 2005)

> Maybe the constant use of mobile phones makes people feel important.



I definitely think that is true.

BTW can you get a signal in the bunker? :lol: 

Going to the pub (where there isn't one!) - I've got some 24 hour drinking to be getting on with  :lol: 

T


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2005)

jaymar":1pe3vc9d said:


> Do the anti-progress lobby on this thread really believe that times in the past were so good. I can remember when to own a car you had to be fairly wealthy or a doctor,the same for a telephone.People were crippled with polio or died ither thousands from T.B or any number of diseases. The _Good Old Times _were only good if you could afford it.I know the Rose tinted glasses game is fun but in reality there wasn't much rose tinting in my childhood but I did enjoy it all the same.



I see your point. But.

We are on a collilsion course for there not being enough money in the kitty for pensioners not to be cared for by the state. Last I heard this hits the buffers around 2015-ish. And when am I about to retire?

Government have spotted this and are actively working on the solution. Not to get more money in, but to stop people retiring at 65. Less than 10 years ago as I recall governments were talking about reducing the retirement age, now they are looking at increasing it to 70 and perhaps beyond. All well and good, but my lifeplan was to retire at 60-ish and spend a few healthy years relaxing. Seems they've taken the carpet out from under my feet with that one.

And what's wrong particularly with not being able to own a car? It used to be the case that you could park anywhere without much fuss. Today you have to search for a parking space. And back then you could rely upon a decent bus and train service. And with a lack of cars on the roads I believe the air we breathe was a bit safer than it is today.

I still manage to get by without holding a telephone to my ear as I'm walking down the street or pushing the trolley around tescos, but it seems many people can't. I'd happily scrap mobile phones in their entirety if it were possible, don't like 'em, never have.

I remember the 60's as being a relaxed atmosphere. People earning less than 10 pounds a week as I recall.

Andrew


----------



## Midnight (6 Feb 2005)

Luddite huh...??

yea.. well... that might be true enough... but there's days when that's definately a good thing to be. I've lost count at the munber of morphadites I've seen driving while using their mobile, this a full year after the said activity was banned; does wearing yer brain in yer backside automatically grant immunity?? 
Granted, back in the day, I've been guilty of doing the same myself. Difference was I wasn't immitating some poor pipper with an awfull sore ear... I used a hands free set. Ohh... I was stationary too... stuck in traffic..
The ultimate clown has gotta be those who think they can text while driving; ya canna miss em... focus on their groin, weaving around all over the place, absolutely no cognassance of their surroundings... maybe these super-hero's _*should*_ be made to wear their underwear over their tights... give the rest of us a fighting chance of taking evasive action...
Kids abusing technology I can understand... kinda sorta... I mean they're kids... sposed to be daft.. right...??
What excuse do these supposed adults have..???


I debated the point with a workmate over lunch a while back... trying to figure what I was missing out on...

Text..??
never did use it... what's the point when I've access to free e-mail and / or forums...

Built in camera..
ummm... you need this because...???? 

But you can take pics and send em to your friends... I can take real pictures... scan em, edit em to suit... then e-mail or file transfer... again, all free..

OK... watching movies...
on yer _*phone*_...?????? the point of this is what exactly...??

To take advantage of blue tooth technology...
ummm...... my dentist takes care of that for me... well... that and toothpaste...

So I'm askin... what am I missing out on?? Near as I can figure.. it's less than zero... unless there's something to be said for repetative strain on my thumbs...


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2005)

Good man Mike! You hit the nail on the thumb! 

Somehow my wife and I grew up without a mobile phone and texting. Dunno how we managed, but somehow we did.

I've done some texting - about 10 seconds worth. That persuaded me that this was an utterly pointless exercise.

A bit like a PDA which has no keyboard. I loved my old HP200LX which had a diddy keyboard, can't get on with the stylus arrangement at all. Not least because I appear to be showing the early signs of parkinsons disease (runs in the family, I have to be careful picking cups of tea up, that sort of thing).

Reminds me of a joke but I think this forum might be a bit too upmarket for that sort of thing 

Andrew


----------



## Midnight (6 Feb 2005)

PDA's..??

ummm... I make do with scraps o paper.. altzheimers takes care of anything else.. :wink: 

the other day during lunch break (first break I hadn't had to work through in a while) I'm sat in the smoke shack... head miles away... and in walks this youngun... exchanged pleasentries as ya do.. and promptly settled back into planning the current project in my 'ead (read dozing)...

next thing I know the walls are reverberating to the sound of the Queen Mary's steam whistle... I near chit myself... cig went flyin et al... I'm lookin around expecting an 18 wheeler bearing down on me.. an the pup takes this silvered match box outa his pocket.. starts talking to it...

I'm like.. WTF.....???!!!!

It's my ring tone... says the pup...

I threw him out... bodily... it was raining..!!!!!! :evil: :twisted: :evil: 

technology is a good thing....??????????????????? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## Anonymous (6 Feb 2005)

Tim

I think you missed my point.

My main gripe is pointless texts in the vein pf those Alf pointed out and the INABILITY of said people to walk down a street, stand at a bus stop, sit on a train, drive a car etc. without reaching for that damed mobile!!

I have a mobile phone. It lives in a drawer mmost of the time and I take it to work and back each day. If I am going to be late picking my daughter up, then I phone the child mider on it. If my wife is in a dark car park at night, she may phone me on hers to feel a little safer
These are useful and legitimate uses and my rant was not aimed at thse uses. IUt was not at mobiel phones in general (read it again and you'll see)

And for the record, I have not sent 1700 texts, I have conversed on-line with friends who like the same thing I do - rants :lol:


----------



## trevtheturner (7 Feb 2005)

I managed perfectly well before the advent of mobile 'phones and, never having actually needed one, still do.

Isn't the situation really down to the companies that have developed these things, along with a lot of other 'modern' gizmos, who, by virtue of clever marketing, have convinced a majority of people that they need them in order to fleece more money from their wallets? Now that the majority have one, the next stage is for the companies to persuade people that they cannot do without updating to the latest, with photo/email/internet etc. facilities, to replace their perfectly serviceable existing 'phone. The gullibility and determination of so many, including members of my family, to be sucked in in this way to 'keep up' with the next person amazes me. All IMO :wink: . (I do have a mobile 'phone, with camera, passed on to me by my daughter when she 'upgraded' (???) last July. I've taken it out of the house twice, when I might have needed it. It came with a tenner's worth of credit on it, which it still has!).

Damned things annoy me when LOML, indoors, exchanges text messages, several in one sitting, with one of our sons or daughter or a friend, over something much better dealt with by using the house 'phones. :evil: :evil: Constant peep-peeping is the signal to bail out to the workshop!

In Kenya on safari some years ago we could have left a 'phone or camera/camcorder at a stopping-off point out in the bush and gone back later to retrieve it. It would have been most unlikely to have been moved because it was useless to the native population - no charging facilities/batteries/films etc. But.........in the absence of all these modern things, including TV, cars, washing machines, et al, the majority of the population there, living in mud huts! but always keeping themselves clean and immaculate, and with an average income equivalent to about two quid a week, seemed every bit as happy and contented as any Brit. I know.

So, I wonder again, just what is this 'progress' that we talk of?

Cheers,

Trev.


----------



## tim (7 Feb 2005)

I do agree with a lot of what has been said - I don't know why I would need the ability to send video on my phone! Hats off to their marketing guys though.

I heard recently that the main reason that mobile phone calls are so intrusive (aside from the ring tone) is the fact that your brain tries to fill in the missing half of the conversation making it impossible to ignore. That coupled with the general banality of it (or pompous self importance of some calls) is absolutely maddening. However, removing any rose tinted specs for a second, if you look at old comedy sketches, Andy Capp, Giles etc etc there were far too many references of old of (generally) women talking for hours on a telephone in the hall to a neighbour up the road (that they had seen earlier that day) or teenage daughters hogging the phone to gossip with their mates. Its human nature to talk utter c**p, its our way of bonding - grooming and picking fleas if you like. You only have to listen to a bunch of blokes talking about football to realise that - its a leveller and makes most people feel part of the group and comfortable.

Trev I agree with you about the 'keeping up with the Jones' mentality - that has gone mad.

Tony - I did read your comment again and while you say in your later point that it was not a rant against mobile phones in general I think I was probably swayed by the sign off comment:



> Mobile phones Aaaaarrrggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!



What do you think? :wink: 

Anyway I'm glad you responded, I thought you might be just sitting there on your Playstation (or is that another thread for the future) :lol: 

T


----------



## Anonymous (7 Feb 2005)

tim":2ga6on3b said:


> ITony - I did read your comment again and while you say in your later point that it was not a rant against mobile phones in general I think I was probably swayed by the sign off comment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ohh that comment  

By the way what's a playstation? - it's OK, I'm not a technophobe or anything like that, just hate the texting phenomenon!

I was shocked to see a guy who had a playstation fitted in his car the other day?????? Drive safely :wink:


----------



## dedee (7 Feb 2005)

Can I bring in Python at this point

"What did the Romans ever do for us"

Like it or not, agree with it or not we cannot uninvent things nor has any developed society ever stood in the way of progress.

Andy


----------



## Taffy Turner (7 Feb 2005)

Surely the point here isn't the technology that is bad, it is the way that some people choose to use (or misuse) it.

Most of the ire directed at mobile phones is down to a simple lack of courtesy by the user. It isn't the mobile that is annoying, it is the sad gimp who insists on phoning his mates to tell them that he is on the train, when you are trying to quietly read the latest Terry Pratchet or whatever.

A quick call to SWMBO to tell her not to put the dinner on yet, as the train is running an hour late (yet again!!!) is a legitimate use for the technology (IMHO), prattling on for 20 minutes in a LOUD voice, with the F-word inserted in every sentence, about how drunk you were the other night, and what a slapper your mate's new bird is, IS NOT!!

BUT - it is the user who is at fault - not the technology.

If everyone was taught basic manners as a child, and bothered to behave in a polite and civilised way for the duration of their life, then all these irritations with technology wouldn't exist. It isn't the technology that is causing the problem, it is simply the means by which modern society's ills are brought to light.

That's my rant over for today!


----------



## Anonymous (7 Feb 2005)

Nice rant Taffy


----------



## Taffy Turner (7 Feb 2005)

Cheers Tony - I am turning into a Grumpy Old Man before my time!!!!!

(I am only 40 - going on 83!)


----------



## trevtheturner (7 Feb 2005)

Well said, Taffy.

You're hpme early :shock: . 

Cheers, Trev.


----------



## Taffy Turner (7 Feb 2005)

trevtheturner":mdj5dm5g said:


> Well said, Taffy.
> 
> You're hpme early :shock: .
> 
> Cheers, Trev.



Yes - I got home in the early hours of Sunday in a sorry state.

I am sitting here in work surfing the forum as I don't have the energy to do anything else to be honest!


----------



## frank (7 Feb 2005)

it all might change if they start teaching kids the forth R


----------



## Chris Knight (7 Feb 2005)

Taffy, 

I agree with every word. The trouble is that the same argument can be applied to guns. They are very useful for the right purposes. Unfortunately, too many people use them for the wrong purposes! 

(I am not meaning to be a smart-ass here but the human race has never been able to rely on good behaviour or common sense in anything. There comes a point where the only answer seems to be a great big blunt instrument (ban it, whatever it is). Don't suppose this will happen to phones but then who knows, it's going to happen to cigarettes - indeed has done so in many places).


----------



## dedee (8 Feb 2005)

There is nothing common about sense especially in a society that seems to revel in the dumbing down of education and a media that panders to the lowest common denominator.

Andy


----------



## RogerS (8 Feb 2005)

> I do a lot of flying and the one thing that I don't understand is the guys that phone up the office repeatedly and say "thought I'd just check to see if there are any messages" or the guys that give a running comentary about getting on and off a plane.
> 
> Maybe the constant use of mobile phones makes people feel important.




Now Waka I think you've hit the nail on the head with this one. It's all about self-esteem or rather lack of. The very same that drives pillocks to drive their offspring to school in Hampstead in an SUV.

Taffy wrote


> If everyone was taught basic manners as a child, and bothered to behave in a polite and civilised way for the duration of their life, then all these irritations with technology wouldn't exist. It isn't the technology that is causing the problem, it is simply the means by which modern society's ills are brought to light.



I couldn't agree more and people put this down to 'where has society gone wrong'..lack of basic respect for others or even an awareness that others exist. The conversation then goes on to blame 'teachers, lack of police, courts, parents/lack of parents, Govt'. In truth it's probably down to many of the aforementioned starting with 'you musn't smack Johnny when he's naughty'. 

But actually IMHO the blame lies with *us*. Regrettably I think that *we* as a society have actually abrogated our responsibility. Perhaps if ten years or maybe fifteen years ago *we* remonstrated against what we perceived as unruly behaviour/disprespect and then actually DID something about it by telling said person to stop then perhaps, just perhaps, we might be living in a better society than we have now. 
But then again..who knows?

I remember back in the early seventies coming back on an overnight ferry with the missus. We must have been in our twenties. We were sleeping in those openstyle couchette thingies and in the couchettes next door were two teenagers..part of a school trip. They'd been drinking and one of them was F'ing and Blinding like a trooper...much to my wifes discomfort plus we wanted to get to sleep. So I trundled around to said teenager and politely asked him to desist.

His reply was 'What the f**ks it to do with you?'. My right hand must have slipped as somehow he got a real painful cuff on the ear as I, again, more firmly replied ' That's what it's got to do with me'. he shut up. Would I do it now? Who knows

:wink: 


Overheard recently on the train...woman speaking very loudly into mobile phone...'CAN YOU HEAR ME'. A very dry cultured male voice from the other end of the carriage replied..'We all can'. She stopped talking.


----------

