# Dust extraction advise, please?



## Davidf (11 Jun 2007)

Hi again,

Well, I've been getting on pretty well with my new hobby/projects invoving turning; theres is now an important snag.

I new I was fighting off something a few weeeks ago...my supervisor was obviously snuffling so I wasn't terribly surprised when I started feeling snuffly/achey myself.

With sometime off tempation got the better of me and I did some turning....oak as usual.

What DID surprise me about this summer cold was its severity on my chest (though it didn't go to my head) and the total LETHARGY induced; basically I have just lost 2 weeks holiday....got very little done....

My Dad questioned whether there was something, a preservative in the oak. When I googled for information regarding wood working and dust I got a nasty surprise......its obviously quite an issue....the stuff is carcenagenic too......which is not good.

I wonder what other people do about this.....is there a satifactory answer? I don't want health issues in ten years time......so this is currently a concern.

Any thoughts?

I would also say that I saw a doctor during my time out (actually principally about achey knees) and he related very similar recent symptoms to my fluey virus, particularly the total, zero energy, so I would n't entirely blame the lthing for that. The health issue is still quiet a concern, though.






thanks very much,




 





David


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## Paul.J (11 Jun 2007)

Hello David.
Sorry to hear about your problems but it is to be expected when working with varying woods,especially hardwoods and exotics.
I used to be fine when i was younger but one day i had symptoms like you've got now,especially with red woods.
I've been using Oak the last few weeks wearing the trend airshield and with extraction,and again this weekend had flu like symptoms.
This i'm sure was just with dust that is floating around the shop,while not wearing the airshield,short amount of time :!: :!: 
Best thing is to get the Trend Airshield,and some sort of extraction on the lathe.
All the best.
Paul.J.


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## Paul.J (11 Jun 2007)

Perhaps
thisshould be put some where on the forum as a warning.
Paul.J.


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## CHJ (11 Jun 2007)

Hi David,

Some wood hazard links hereyou may not have found.

I am susceptible to certain wood dusts, and the chemicals released into the atmosphere when turning and sanding.

As Paul says, for your basic long term health risk you need a fine filter face mask such as the Trend as a minimum and good shop extraction and maybe shop ambient air filtration if you can't dump the fine stuff outside.

This will not of course prevent allergic reactions through skin contact or aerobic chemicals, those you just have to identify and avoid I'm afraid.

I personally have to keep medication in the fridge and anti histamine drugs on hand in case I should be foolish enough to work with Iroko, guess who did so in the last few days :roll:


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## shedhead (11 Jun 2007)

I am also new at this hobby. When i started i bought a Microclene Air filter for just under £100, and i wear a dust mask only when sanding. The filter sits on a shelf almost on top of the lathe. It doesn't half sook in the dust, or so i thought. After sanding is over i will remove dust mask and switch off filter after a couple of minutes, thinking all the small particles have been removed. With this good weather and the sun shining showed to my suprise that there was still dust particles floating about in the air more than 10 minutes or more after i had finished sanding.
It was only then i realised that me moving around was sturring up dust that had settled further away from the lathe. I am quite slow at picking up on most things, as this should have been something i thought about before i started work.

Nasty stuff this wood. Its hard to get hold off then when you finally get some it wants to kill you.


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## Paul.J (11 Jun 2007)

*Shedhead wrote*
sun shining showed to my suprise that there was still dust particles floating about in the air more than 10 minutes or more after i had finished sanding. 
It's this dust that causes the problems,especially in hardwoods.You think it's safe and clear but it's not.Can take years before it can effect you. :!: 
Dangerous stuff.
Paul.J.


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## Blister (12 Jun 2007)

I use the following in my workshop all at the same time 

A 2hp chip extractor 

A microclean 1200 

and a Trend air shield 

they all run together until I have finished in the workshop 

about £450 worth  

how much is a new pair of lungs , fitted


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## TEP (12 Jun 2007)

Hi David.

My suggestion is buy this straight away, http://www.craft-supplies.co.uk/ type FM956 in the search box, before doing any more turning. Then follow any or all the above ways of extracting/collecting the dreaded dust.

IMO the best way is to get the dust outside, and some of us have the idea of a fan fitted into a hole in the wall beside the lathe blowing out all the time. Then there is the more expensive route of buying machinery.

Don't mess about, IF you are suffering from any effects caused by wood dust do something about.

Good luck, and don't let it put you off. You are only one of many who seem to be effected by this problem.


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## CHJ (12 Jun 2007)

TEP":3oc596ox said:


> http://www.craft-supplies.co.uk/



One to many commas in your link Tam.


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## TEP (12 Jun 2007)

Thanks for that *Chas.* was in a hurry this morning, brain only connected by a very tenuous link at that time. :roll:


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## shedhead (12 Jun 2007)

When i built my shed, i wanted to install an extract system using a bathroom extract fan. I was not sure what size or type to buy. I sent an email to a well known company explaining what i wanted. The reply i received back was to forget this as the fan could catch fire if dust clogged the system.
What is the best woodworking system to use. Is the microclean not suitable to use on its own?.


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## TEP (12 Jun 2007)

Hi Dermot.

I get the feeling that the company you talked to was very wary about saying their fans would do dust. Personally I can't see any problem, but there are plenty industrial fans kicking about, and second hand.

I picked up a 10" sealed fan for £10, over 40 years old and still running great. No problems like intermittent use that you see on a lot of equipment these days.

Microclene, won't clear dust as you make it, they are ambient dust filters and as such are meant to be left on all the time helping clear the residue of airborne dust left floating around. IMO You still need to have some sort of unit clearing the immediate dust from right on top of the work area.


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## Paul.J (12 Jun 2007)

Dermot.
I think people do think that these filters can be used for the main dust extraction in thier shop,they are only for use as Tam says.
I would still get some proper extraction where you are working,and wear a mask of some sort.
And always clean up when you have finished,this all helps to keep the dust down.
Paul.J.


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## CHJ (12 Jun 2007)

shedhead":1my3dm0d said:


> using a bathroom extract fan.



There is no way that a fan intended for domestic bathroom condensation/odor control would move enough air to be effective in a workshop for removal of work generated dust whilst you are working, even left on permanently after you finished operations I doubt it would create sufficient airflow in the room to exhaust the airborne dust before it settled.

The ambient air filters I have seen (retangular box type) all create sufficient air movement to warrant careful positioning to avoid the exhaust draft blowing on the work area.


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## shedhead (12 Jun 2007)

Thank to everyone for the advice. I will need to install a extract fan larger than the normal bathroom / kitchen type. The company that told me a fan could catch fire was Xpelair ( not sure if spelling is correct). I think they did not want any hassel.
I will need a length of ducting and of course a suitable fan. Work area is 12" x 12" with a small greenhouse attached.

Thanks All.


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## Davidf (12 Jun 2007)

TEP":28zlx28w said:


> Hi Dermot.
> 
> I get the feeling that the company you talked to was very wary about saying their fans would do dust. Personally I can't see any problem, but there are plenty industrial fans kicking about, and second hand.
> 
> ...



Yes, this is kind of what I'd been thinking around...

I'm wary of masks + filters, when they may or may not be doing any thing. A powerful fan blowing ervything away form your face I find rather more convincing.

Clearly more thought needed. (a bit of a blow (excuse possible pun) actually).

Many thanks for all the replies.







David


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## CHJ (12 Jun 2007)

shedhead":1c734h32 said:


> The company that told me a fan could catch fire was Xpelair



If you never serviced it and let it clog up with dust/shavings that may be so if using a domestic rated unit, but I have seen them in some pretty awful states and still running.

Common sense would dictate that you run a soft brush and the 'Vac' over them occasionally when build-up is observed on the grills.


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## Davidf (12 Jun 2007)

CHJ":1sqzekqk said:


> I personally have to keep medication in the fridge and anti histamine drugs on hand in case I should be foolish enough to work with Iroko, guess who did so in the last few days :roll:



..is that what I should have been taking this last week....antii histamine?

I gather that oak dust is carcenegenic.......which certainly scares me!!?!



Someone warned me that wood turning was an expensive hobby....I'm beginning to see why! 

Tha lathe was the tip of the ice burg!


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## Davidf (12 Jun 2007)

CHJ":2z9q07f4 said:


> shedhead":2z9q07f4 said:
> 
> 
> > The company that told me a fan could catch fire was Xpelair
> ...




sounds sensible...


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## CHJ (13 Jun 2007)

Davidf":3itg4fxe said:


> CHJ":3itg4fxe said:
> 
> 
> > I personally have to keep medication in the fridge and anti histamine drugs on hand in case I should be foolish enough to work with Iroko,
> ...


Seek doctors advice, if the dust/contact with wood is causing histamine reaction (itching,swollen eyes,runny nose, sneezing, are but a few symptoms, somewhat like a head cold) then taking the anti histamine immediately they occur calms things down and prevents worsening conditions.
I usually shower after any dust producing workshop session, If I don't bother and a 'bad' wood has been involved then by late evening a prickly itching begins in my scalp,neck,behind my ears and sometimes arms, no sympathy ensues from SWMBO of course but an immediate shower and AH tablet eases the problem.




Davidf":3itg4fxe said:


> I gather that oak dust is carcenegenic.......which certainly scares me!!?!


Many dusts are suspect if ingested into your nasal passages and lungs, do all you can to prevent it happening. (remember most warnings are based on results of findings from persons with long term or excessive exposure) just try and minimise your personal exposure wherever you are.


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## Davidf (13 Jun 2007)

Thanks CHJ.

No, my symptoms weren't like that at all...so I wonder if it was the dust. I'm still suspicious about its severity, though.

I take your point about prolonged exposure etc. It still seems unwise to take ANY unnecessary (serious) health risks......I don't mind the odd runny nose....

I'm not throwing in the towel just yet though; I'm thinking around fans - if the stuff is blown away i don't see how it can harm you - I have spare car battery...whether a car rad fan strategically positioned............  



Many thanks for the input,





David


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## CHJ (13 Jun 2007)

Davidf":19lec7xo said:


> I'm thinking around fans - if the stuff is blown away i don't see how it can harm you David



As long as it is outside the shop/shed, just be aware of other people and don't blow it into a neighbors back yard.

I warn visitors not to stand adjacent to the exhaust and chip collector fan outlets when I am sanding.


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## Paul.J (13 Jun 2007)

*CHJ wrote*
just be aware of other people and don't blow it into a neighbors back yard. 
This is another problem been created when doing this method,if as Chas says you have neighbours.Won't cars,windows,etc start getting covered in fine dust.More complaints. :!: :!: 
Paul.J.


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## Davidf (13 Jun 2007)

I think you may have a point.




:? 




Back to the drawing board.





D.


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## duncanh (13 Jun 2007)

I've previously posted an image of my air filter and this discussion prompted me do so again whilst keeping a record of working time.

Yesterday and today I've been turning (I think) iroko into a fruit dish. The wood produced a lot of dust and, as is often the case recently, I wore a dust mask continuously during the turning as well as the sanding. 
also had my Microclene air filter going all the time. Whilst I was sanding I used my Camvac dust extractor with the poseable hose as close to the sanding as possible.

This is an image of the filter from the Microclene after 2 hours work...



The white patch is where I vacuumed off some of the dust for contrast.

This is an image of a piece of kitchen towel that I sandwiched over the air intake of my dust mask and is from just 30 minutes sanding this morning (when I had all my other extraction on)...




These 2 images should show everyone how important effective dust extraction is. 

I recently fitted a small kitchen extractor in the shed to (hopefully) remove hot air. It may also remove a small amount of dust but no-where near as much as the rest of my extraction - with the Microlene you can see airborne particles moving towards it from over a meter away.

I know that as wood turners we often like to make our own tools and jigs to save money, but I just wouldn't risk it where my health is involved dust-wise.

Duncan


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## Russell (13 Jun 2007)

You will never remove dust completely

Extract at source as much as possible with a dust extractor/hover/chip collector fitted with the appropriate filter down to .5 microns

Have an ambient air filter such as a microclene that filters down to 0.1 of a micron.

You must still were a face mask or have a mask that delivers a clean air supply such as a paint sprayers clean air mask.

The only way you are going to be dust free is to use a clean air supply that gives you air from a dust free source you can use a compressor with the correct regulators and filters but the compressor must be remote from the dust. Clean air supplies are the only way forward if you have severe dust related respiratory problems. They can be expensive systems to implement and only work if you wear them the entire time you are working even when not sanding because once you have created dust you will disturb it the next day unless you are ruthless with your clean up process.


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## Paul.J (13 Jun 2007)

Nice one Duncan.
Those piccys do show how important some sort of extraction is needed.

*Russell wrote*
You will never remove dust completely 
You are right there Russell.
One of the hazards working with wood.It's there all the time.Just can't see it :roll: 
Paul.J.


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## Davidf (13 Jun 2007)

Thanks for this input, gentlemen.


 



There a learning curve here.





regs,


D.


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## caretaker (14 Jun 2007)

the best way is to get the dust outside, and some of us have the idea of a fan fitted into a hole in the wall beside the lathe blowing out all the time. 

I am the unlucky sole that used Iroko and when I was told about the dust what it did I was a bit concerned, but I still feel fine. 

Funny thing is I was just thinking about getting an extractor fan and putting it behind the lathe, must be better than nowt.


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## Davidf (15 Jun 2007)

caretaker":29cq3cle said:


> I am the unlucky sole that used Iroko and when I was told about the dust what it did I was a bit concerned, but I still feel fine.



Yes, I'd imagine that limited exposure won't be an issue.......its doing it full time when the probs start........x number of years away!

My confined work shop now looks a bad idea....long term. A fan would certainly help.


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## Russell (15 Jun 2007)

One of my customers made a kitchen with solid maple doors. 6 months after he had surgery on his nose to remove a growth when analysed it turned out to be a solid lump of maple dust in the centre of it about the size of pea that the growth had grown around. :shock: 

Needless to say he now has full dust gear and I learn't from the experience of others.


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## Davidf (15 Jun 2007)

I don't know as I wanted to hear that! 



:shock:


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