# Who do you follow on YouTube?



## Monkey Mark (4 Nov 2015)

I'm sure we all have people on youtube that we like to follow. I sometimes come across new people/channels and I think "How have I not seen him/her/them before?". So, how about we list the people/channels we follow and maybe we will all find something new in each others lists that grabs our interest?

I'll list mine first. Not many as I prune the ones out that I get bored with so the ones I like don't get lost. I'll also add a little info for each one but it's up to you whether you do the same or not.



*Jay Bates Custom Creations* - One of my favorites. Shows anything from making salt & pepper shakers to blanket boxes and workshop/kitchen units. Makes plenty of jigs. Also gives little tips on techniques and shop layout. The videos are always well put together with the odd bit of humor thrown in. Has plans available on his website, some free some with a small charge.

*The woodwhisperer* - Another of my favorites. Well put together with loads of information. Covers allsorts including how to get started in woodworking, how to set up table saws, correct use of tools, how to make items and jigs, tips on how to work the wood and wood finishes, projects large and small and many many more. Been going since 2006 and has tons of videos uploaded. Written articles for various magazines and produced his own book. You could loose hours looking through them all.

*Steve Ramsey* - Predominantly simple and quick projects but great for beginners or just for fun. Gives some info on technique and finishes. I like his style and find them entertaining. I think all of his plans are free.

*Matthias Wandel* - I believe he is an engineer by trade which goes some way as to explain his approach to most things and his obsession with making his own workshop tools. His jigs are quite simply amazing at times, if not a little over complicated but he insists on a high degree of accuracy. Has both free and paid for plans.

*Ron Paulk* - Has some interesting tips but I find that most of his videos are now aimed at his sponsors and promoting himself. Can still pick up the odd tip but becoming less frequent.

*Izzy Swan *- Great videos to watch. Seems like a nice bloke if not a little crazy at times and covers a wide range of things. Also a big fan of making his own tools & jigs and he did a series on setting up a shop for cheap.

*Paul Sellers *- Describes himself as a lifestyle woodworker. All hand tools and fifty years of experience. Straight to the point with a good teaching approach on most subjects.

*Stumpy Nubs* - Another of my favorites. Describes his videos as Edutainment. Easy to watch and funny but with plenty of info and inspiration. Another fan of shopmade tools. Both free and paid for plans available.

*Tableft workshop* - Videos are usually pretty short with little talking involved concentrating more on close ups of the work. Easy to follow and copy his work.

*Shop Built* - Focuses mostly on making his own tools and equipment. 

*Bellevue woodshop* - Another that focuses mainly on tools and jigs.

*Woodworkweb* - Educational in the most part. Good info on how to use power tools the correct way and how to build things like mirror frames, tools storage, chopping boards. Also a few reviews (mostly American biased).

*Nick Ferry* - A new one for me so cant say too much yet. Seems to concentrate on the building of household items/basic furniture.

*Learning woodworking* - Only a few videos as they seem to have stopped which is a shame as they were well put together and presented. Good instructional videos on beginner inlaying.


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## Zeddedhed (4 Nov 2015)

Richard Maguire for no nonsense approach.
Our very own Graham Haydon, mainly 'cos I love slo mo shots of shavings and ultra-fast morticing!! :lol: 
Also like Sellers, Wood Whisperer and Rob Cosman for giggles.


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## Racers (4 Nov 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/user/doucetteandwolfe


The legend.

http://video.pbs.org/program/woodwrights-shop/ also available on youtube.

Pete 

Pete


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## damo8604 (4 Nov 2015)

All of the above, I also like Peter from New Brit Workshop, I think he's a bit of a Festool fan?


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## pcb1962 (4 Nov 2015)

I used to have a list like the one at the top but I found I was spending 80 percent of my workshop time watching youtube so I have pruned it right back.
Just a couple to add: 
John Heisz, does a huge variety of different work, from house building to workshop tools
David Barron, not really my kind of woodworking but I like his style
Alain Vaillancourt, just built an awesome oak framed workshop, does some great work

edit: Just remembered Marius Hornberger, if you're a fan of Matt Wandel you'll definitely like this one too


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## Nelsun (4 Nov 2015)

^It's hard not to like Peter. And yes, he's a Festool fan and active on the FOG.

Monkey Mark got most of mine but missed out one biggy - Jimmy DiResta. He's a no nonsense cross-discipline guy. Not your master craftsman but an inspiration none the less. Anyone into fine hand crafted dovetails should check out his bench video. It'll kick off all sorts of OCDs :lol:


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## JonnyW (4 Nov 2015)

Nelsun":3bdt47w2 said:


> ^It's hard not to like Peter. And yes, he's a Festool fan and active on the FOG.
> 
> Monkey Mark got most of mine but missed out one biggy - Jimmy DiResta. He's a no nonsense cross-discipline guy. Not your master craftsman but an inspiration none the less. Anyone into fine hand crafted dovetails should check out his bench video. It'll kick off all sorts of OCDs :lol:



Ha ha ha, love the use of the Dremel to cut out the dovetails! Fantastic...

Love the bench - simple and beautiful. 

Jonny


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## BearTricks (4 Nov 2015)

I find Paul Sellers and Frank Howarth to be two of the only ones who pay attention to the idea that the first 30% of any YouTube video can be skipped without missing anything important. 

They both get to the point immediately and Frank gets extra marks for editing his videos extremely well and keeping them entertaining. 

Maybe I've got a short attention span. I find that little things like that turn me off a YouTuber right away. I'm sure Jimmy DiResta makes some great stuff but I can't get over the fact that literally everything in his shop is branded with his name just in case we forget who we are watching. 

(Also I emailed Matthias Wandel a question once and he was rude to me so I never went back to his stuff) 

Anyway Frank Howarth gets my vote. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## John15 (4 Nov 2015)

Paul Sellers for me - hand tools where possible, he keeps it simple and he explains in detail what he's doing.

John


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## Penny (4 Nov 2015)

The woodwhisperer
Paul Sellers
Steve Ramsey
And April Wilkerson


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## damo8604 (4 Nov 2015)

Oh yes April Wikerson......... I came across one of her videos a while back, shes rather good!


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## mseries (4 Nov 2015)

I follow a few but rarely watch them unless I am researching something. I like Stumpy Nubs for entertainment value. And that young chap from Northern Ireland, Adam Collins. There's a Spanish amigo I like too, Enredando No Garaxe


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## themackay (4 Nov 2015)

Everyone forgot about Capn Eddie


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## Mike.S (4 Nov 2015)

pcb1962":26zg2it9 said:


> edit: Just remembered Marius Hornberger, if you're a fan of Matt Wandel you'll definitely like this one too



+1 Interesting, informative plus nice dry sense of humour.

And the usual suspects:
AskWoodman/Alan Little
Matthias Wandel
Wood and Shop
Woodworking Masterclass
Paul Sellers
Wood Whisperer
New Brit Workshop (probably going to get the chop - not convinced about Mr Parfitt's impartiality)
Rob Cosman
Stumpy Nubs
John Zhu
Graham Haydon (yah!)
Gough Custom (Knives)
English Woodworker/Maguire
Christopher Tribe
Doucette & Wolfe (pure classy porn for woodworkers)
Alistair Darroch


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## transatlantic (4 Nov 2015)

I subscribe to quite a few channels, but to be honest, I find most of them annoying and often have to skip through a lot of the "fluff" just to get to the wood working. For me, a prime example of this is the Stumpy Nubs channel. I do prefer the no nonsense approach taken by Paul Sellers/Graham Haydon/Rob Cosman etc.

A recent good find for me is https://www.youtube.com/user/gwinnettwoodworkers


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## Myke (4 Nov 2015)

For me it's: 

*Jay* - I like his sense of humour
*Woodwhisperer* - I find he doesn't put out videos all that often and they are mainly focused on his Guild members projects. 
*RenaissanceWW* - 99% hand tools which I like but most of his videos of the projects are quite old and a little bit bad quality. He also doesn't upload all that often.
*Matthew Cremona* - Makes the most amazing furniture, I watch every video as soon as I can.
*Tom Fidgen* - Again hand tools only and he also makes lovely chilled videos. Doesn't upload very often.
*Paul Sellers* - This guy makes me want to stop woodworking!


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## angus5041 (16 Dec 2022)

Hand-I-craft great channel give it a watch, Leo is an amazing guy built a great workshop and does a lot of other stuff and with one hand after an accident lost the use of his dominant right hand and it is all done with the left hand , I cant even stir my coffee with my left never mind use tools , watch him move a 6x2 slab of oak


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## Argus (16 Dec 2022)

There has been no mention of Peter Follansbee yet........... a knowledgeable researcher in English/New England 17 th C furniture and carving.



https://www.youtube.com/user/MrFollansbee/videos


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## Smithy (16 Dec 2022)

Mr Chickadee for me. Nice hand tool work and well presented.


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## carry book (17 Dec 2022)

What Meike makes


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## D_W (17 Dec 2022)

Argus said:


> There has been no mention of Peter Follansbee yet........... a knowledgeable researcher in English/New England 17 th C furniture and carving.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/MrFollansbee/videos



A good example of someone who loves the work and presents it in a straight forward way but not in any way watered down.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (17 Dec 2022)

The issue I have with 90% of the YouTube presenters is that they are there for the money. The content is generally chosen for its clickability, not usefulness or originality. What sells a video is a catchy title, one which will pull you in, rather than a simple label of the contents. You will only discover that it is a rehashed rehash once you are watching. I am pulled in as much as the next person, always hoping for something new. I generally come away resentful about the deceit and angry with myself for being a sucker.

I am not against presenters doing it for money … as long as they have earned their chops and offer something that is meaningful. I bitterly resent those who portray themselves as philanthropes and are busily selling themselves behind the mask. Paul Sellers is a good example. Still, he has value as a teacher. He would starve as a philosopher.

I have more respect for Rob Cosman. He is a salesman, but does not disguise this.

Generally the “good guys” are not flashy, do not have any music and present without fanfare. But, of course, most want entertainment.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## D_W (17 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> I generally come away resentful about the deceit and angry with myself for being a sucker.



Exactly. it's a trade of time for almost anything - formulaic, or outright salesy. I can't have as much resentment for cosman as he hides nothing. When you ask him a question and it's perhaps less than flattering, he still answers it straight up. I think he is a dead end for someone for more than a year, but that's everyone else's business. 

The question about paul not promoting much on his videos led me to look at yesterday's retread - just picked his most recent video and it was a relatively tame piece of wood with some kind of mystical nonsense making things far more difficult than they need to be. 

The comment section is filled with assurances from anyone who says they'd just plane it that if paul says you can't, then it's so. 

Even outright experimenting as an amateur to observe outcomes is more productive than paul's advice. Or Rex Kruger's channel or anything else. it's fine to resign onesself to entertainment, but being lobbied with bad information with entertainment in mind will still leave a stain. 

Peter was brought up earlier - it looks like he makes a video once in a great while. he may be touting something like plans for something he's made in the past, but at least you know whatever he provides will be done with care and you can disregard if you'd like. Other than that, if he bothers to make a video, it will be for something substantive. 

Everyone doesn't need to strive to make great things. maybe I'll never make anything great, that's OK. But over time, I've found that it takes about the same amount of time or less to do better work than it does to do bad work. Bad work is a dead end - it results in a shop with nobody in it and a cheated hobbyist. 

youtube could be a wonderful store and demonstration of knowledge, but it's not set up to be that and it doesn't promote it. it does a pretty good job of convincing people that that's part of what it's doing, though. 

I must've been dumb enough to click on at least 2 dozen videos that said "the way to heat treat 1095 *the right way*" only to find it was someone doing something that would lead to bad results. Shame on me. 

There could be videos of people forge heat treating the steels that I like to use and really showing what they've found over a long history of trying to get good results, but I couldn't find them.


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## Jacob (17 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> .The issue I have with 90% of the YouTube presenters is that they are there for the money.


More for the glory I would have thought. I've never paid for anything I've seen on youtube.


Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> ..
> 
> .. I bitterly resent those who portray themselves as philanthropes and are busily selling themselves behind the mask. Paul Sellers is a good example.


Bit heavy on Sellers IMHO. And he isn't promoting certain well known American brands of retro style tools.


Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Still, he has value as a teacher. He would starve as a philosopher.


All good philosophers starve. It's traditional.


Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> I have more respect for Rob Cosman. He is a salesman, but does not disguise this.


Yebbut who wants to watch a salesman doing his spiel? Would you buy a 2nd hand car from Cosman? Not me!
He P's me off most when he says "welcome to my shaarp" 


Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Generally the “good guys” are not flashy, do not have any music and present without fanfare. ....


Yes the music can be a bad start, without a doubt! Nothing against banjos and guitars in the right place.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (17 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Bit heavy on Sellers IMHO. And he isn't promoting certain well known American brands of retro style tools.



Jacob, Sellers does not promote tools … he promotes himself.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## D_W (17 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yebbut who wants to watch a salesman doing his spiel? Would you buy a 2nd hand car from Cosman? Not me!



He's LDS. I would without reservation and his gimmick is more honest than Paul's. It's somewhat humorous that you can't make the connection between asking customers not to spend money on tools and then asking them to pay you for classes or website access. I'd imagine selling classes that fail to meet even the standard of public domain basic education about woodworking is at least as profitable as hawking tools.


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## houtslager (18 Dec 2022)

Well my 2cts worth of interesting woodworkers
Scott Brown a Scot/ Kiwi builder renovation carpenter
Bradshaw joinery more classic joinery woodworking
Blacktail studio , one of the few well made video maker's of epoxy resin furniture
Shoyan , a traditional Japanese woodworker
JSK Koubou, more of a toolmaker in the same style as Matthias
Gary Thompson another old school woodworker
Manor Wood, great videos about setting up after a fire ruined his shop. Epoxy resin work and traditional joinery.
Wood and Shop
Alastair Johnson, UK furniture maker, setting up a commercial shop and design methodology.
Robin clevett,builder/old school joinery
Peter Millard's 10minute workshop, tooling and techniques
Andy Rawls, Texan woodworker
Rex Krueger hand tool aficionado
April Wilkerson, nuff said her
Bents woodworking, yank festool lover 
Stumpy Nubs,tools and some techniques
Tips from a shipwright, boats and techniques
Finally a teaser, though imho the filming is more a teaser on her body - Wood Girl , Korean female woodworker, be warned filmed in a commercial shop with porn quality timber in the background


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## Bojam (18 Dec 2022)

Ishitani furniture. High quality craftsmanship, no guff.



https://youtube.com/@ISHITANIFURNITURE


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Jacob, Sellers does not promote tools … he promotes himself.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek


What he promotes more than anything is a no nonsense practical approach. Demystification. Complete opposite from those pages and pages of pseudo techy speak from the usual sources!
And he gets things wrong; doesn't know how to chop a mortice... etc. etc. which means he's fairly normal!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (18 Dec 2022)

houtslager said:


> Well my 2cts worth of interesting woodworkers
> Scott Brown a Scot/ Kiwi builder renovation carpenter
> Bradshaw joinery more classic joinery woodworking
> Blacktail studio , one of the few well made video maker's of epoxy resin furniture
> ...



It all depends from where you are starting. I am a reasonably competent designer and builder. Those starting out will set lower bars.

I'd like to see something made by each of these presenters. Preferably a reasonably complex piece of furniture, since that is my medium.

There are some in this list who I enjoy watching, just because they are nice guys and do a good job without being pretentious. Blacktail studio, Scott Brown and Peter Millard. Most of the others are an insult to the intelligence (if you are expecting advice from someone experienced). The worst is Stumpy Nubs, who is fed info by a team, and has a set for a woodshop (tools, tools, tools) and I bet he has little idea what to do with them. But he makes out like he does. The last one, Wood Girl, is the genuine article. Her dovetailing is stupendous.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Bojam (18 Dec 2022)

I also enjoy Rex Krueger. I can see why he isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but I find his videos informative and amusing.


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## Bojam (18 Dec 2022)

For hand tool stuff I like (along with Rex) the Mortice & Tenon channel, Bob Rozaieski, and Frank’s Workbench.


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## D_W (18 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> What he promotes more than anything is a no nonsense practical approach. Demystification. Complete opposite from those pages and pages of pseudo techy speak from the usual sources!
> And he gets things wrong; doesn't know how to chop a mortice... etc. etc. which means he's fairly normal!



What he gets wrong is trying to imply to people that he's something he's not (a lifetime professional - he's got 40 years of teaching under his belt, and probably now media creation and distribution). At least David Charlesworth would tell us "my primary job has been teaching students since ____". 

And Paul's extremely arrogant in his actual actions - refusing to learn from people who know more than him and revise what he teaches. 

he doesn't demystify anything - he provides a mediocre level of advice that's often bad and aggressively removes any information that he can get his hands on that states otherwise.


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## D_W (18 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> The worst is Stumpy Nubs, who is fed info by a team, and has a set for a woodshop (tools, tools, tools) and I bet he has little idea what to do with them. But he makes out like he does.



The most offensive of the bunch, maybe only safe from a tie in holding the heavyweight belt with Wranglerstar based on the fact that Wranglerstar likes to dabble in pretending he's a forester (who before I found the "don't recommend this channel" option once spent a whole video complaining that the forest service didn't take special orders for their provided lunches for people who have religious diets, and that the food was too processed or some nonsense).


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## thetyreman (18 Dec 2022)

Bojam said:


> For hand tool stuff I like (along with Rex) the Mortice & Tenon channel, Bob Rozaieski, and Frank’s Workbench.


Bob in particular is highly under rated imo, one of the very few where every single video is useful, he's a great teacher.


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## Bojam (18 Dec 2022)

Bojam said:


> For hand tool stuff I like (along with Rex) the Mortice & Tenon channel, Bob Rozaieski, and Frank’s Workbench.



I forgot Shannon Rodgers (the Renaissance Woodworker). Not a prolific YouTube creator anymore - probably because he mostly makes premium videos for his “hand tool school” - but interesting and knowledgeable content nonetheless. I also enjoy the podcast - Woodtalk - that he makes with Marc Spagnolo and Matt Cremona. Always good for a laugh.


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## houtslager (18 Dec 2022)

Bojam said:


> Ishitani furniture. High quality craftsmanship, no guff.
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtube.com/@ISHITANIFURNITURE


Oeps forgot that one.


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## recipio (18 Dec 2022)

A mention for Andrew Pitts furniture. He does everything from kiln drying to the finished article in a workshop to die for. He is big into CNC machining now and has a very nice presenting style. If you like Federal furniture he is a go to - a more refined version of Norm Abraham.


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## D_W (18 Dec 2022)

recipio said:


> A mention for Andrew Pitts furniture. He does everything from kiln drying to the finished article in a workshop to die for. He is big into CNC machining now and has a very nice presenting style. If you like Federal furniture he is a go to - a more refined version of Norm Abraham.











Andrew Pitts | The Furniture Society


Andrew Pitts is a largely self-taught studio furnituremaker with 39 years experience. His prior career in the navy as a nuclear engineer unexpectedly prepared him for success as a designer. The discipline necessary to command three warships and operate aircraft carrier nuclear reactors translated…




furnsoc.org





Is this the same guy? Not that a guy capable of making studio stuff crisply can't do all kinds of things.


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## D_W (18 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> What he promotes more than anything is a no nonsense practical approach. Demystification. Complete opposite from those pages and pages of pseudo techy speak from the usual sources!
> And he gets things wrong; doesn't know how to chop a mortice... etc. etc. which means he's fairly normal!



I'm reminded of the sellers idiocy on another forum - someone figured they need a thicker iron (I doubt sellers advocates that) and then pointed to a recent sellers video or blog on heat treating in open space with one torch and who knows what - some kind of vegetable oil? the comment was that he "demystifies things and what he says makes a lot of sense". 

Except it doesn't. What he described looks good as a marketing piece to get people to go to his website, but at this point, that's not unintentional. that is, the stupidity of showing people something that will generally not work leaving them to waste money and fail. the picture showing the finished process had a big rounded over bevel just like every text published when it matters advised against. 

I couldn't manage to tolerate the whole thing so I didn't catch the woo nonsense that he usually peddles or the whole "something for nothing" gimmick ("save your money, but here's a link to my site!"). 

there aren't many people I'd like to embarrass in person, but I'd do it to him.


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## mikej460 (18 Dec 2022)

So, not a fan then?


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## Jacob (18 Dec 2022)

mikej460 said:


> So, not a fan then?


Is that D_W going on about Sellers again? 
I've got him on ignore - not least because he tries to belittle or disparages somebody in almost every post. Tedious.


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## John Brown (18 Dec 2022)

I knew, when I started reading this thread, that at some point D_W would chime in to criticize Paul Sellers, I am still gobsmacked that he'd call him arrogant, though.
As for "mystical", who's the one who talks about unicorns?


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## D_W (18 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> I knew, when I started reading this thread, that at some point D_W would chime in to criticize Paul Sellers, I am still gobsmacked that he'd call him arrogant, though.
> As for "mystical", who's the one who talks about unicorns?



Sellers is a fool who intentionally ignores giving his students better advice because it might conflict with something he said. I am direct about the things I do well. If you can show a way that works better, I will abandon what I'm doing immediately. 

That is what all of us owe to each other if we're giving advice, even when pay isn't involved. At least I think we should hold ourselves to that standard. 

but to say he's a fool assumes that he wants experienced workers to have some regard for him, and it's my opinion that maintaining credibility among actual makers either isn't on his list or is VERY low. And if the intention is to get a net and keep finish in it, maybe he's not that big of a fool. 

He manages to get people to carry water for him, too, but so do a lot of politicians.


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## D_W (18 Dec 2022)

mikej460 said:


> So, not a fan then?



Not sure... I haven't decided yet


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## John Brown (18 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> Sellers is a fool who intentionally ignores giving his students better advice because it might conflict with something he said. I am direct about the things I do well. If you can show a way that works better, I will abandon what I'm doing immediately.
> 
> That is what all of us owe to each other if we're giving advice, even when pay isn't involved. At least I think we should hold ourselves to that standard.
> 
> ...


I guess he must have disagreed with you on some point.


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## D_W (19 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> I guess he must have disagreed with you on some point.



I've never talked to him and I don't think he would have any idea who I am. By his work, I wouldn't know who he is either, but like a hoarder who has people tip them off to junk all the time, I do get a fair number of messages "I know you think the guy is an silly person and I'm not trying to wind you up, but you should see his latest blog post". 

I have also seen people refer to him or rob cosman as "the pinnacle" or something of that sort. I don't mind rob so much because I have sort of hassled him over things that have to do with controlling tearout or the cost of china diamond hones, etc, and he always responds matter of fact. I have to respect that.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (19 Dec 2022)

You will have to add my name to the list of those who have a love-hate view of Sellers. He is good at demonstrating simple basic technique, but his whole philosophical approach, aimed at portraying himself as a guru, is hypocritical. He is a very business-minded individual, demagog to be sure, but unable to accept the mildest advice or challenge (he will delete your comments from his blog). And even more long-winded than David! ( just kidding, David …  ).

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Keith 66 (19 Dec 2022)

carry book said:


> What Meike makes


I find her fixed grin a bit too much & gets irritating, but good for a short while. Like many other you tubers seems to have low regard for self preservation round table saws.


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## Jacob (19 Dec 2022)

Surprised that Sellers arouses such strong feelings.
He seems to be an utterly harmless old chap giving out useful advice and burbling about life and the universe.
Haven't even noticed him being critical of other people, whereas D_W does little else!
Sellers seems to get up the noses of would-be-gurus. Keep up the good work and happy Christmas Paul!


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## Matthew S (19 Dec 2022)

I like Tamar at 3x3 Custom. Her approach to problem solving is very good


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## John Brown (19 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> You will have to add my name to the list of those who have a love-hate view of Sellers. He is good at demonstrating simple basic technique, but his whole philosophical approach, aimed at portraying himself as a guru, is hypocritical. He is a very business-minded individual, demagog to be sure, but unable to accept the mildest advice or challenge (he will delete your comments from his blog). And even more long-winded than David! ( just kidding, David …  ).
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek


I wasn't planning on keeping a list, but thanks for the thought.


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## John Brown (19 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> I'm reminded of the sellers idiocy on another forum - someone figured they need a thicker iron (I doubt sellers advocates that) and then pointed to a recent sellers video or blog on heat treating in open space with one torch and who knows what - some kind of vegetable oil? the comment was that he "demystifies things and what he says makes a lot of sense".
> 
> Except it doesn't. What he described looks good as a marketing piece to get people to go to his website, but at this point, that's not unintentional. that is, the stupidity of showing people something that will generally not work leaving them to waste money and fail. the picture showing the finished process had a big rounded over bevel just like every text published when it matters advised against.
> 
> ...


All I can say, then, is that your last remark in this post seems a trifle over the top.


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## Jorny (19 Dec 2022)

The problem with Sellers is that it seems like he likes being a "guru" so much that he gives out really bad advice about things that he really doesn't know that much about, instead of giving an honest answer or recommending that you look to someone else. Seeing him working with an axe and knife is painful (and his bad technique will make people think that they can't use these tools with precision) compared with someone like Peter Follansbee, Julia Kalthoff or Jögge Sundqvist. He also makes really ugly spoons with a complicated method. 

That is why I have a problem with him. If he would just show a little humility and say something like; "I don't know much about this, look to X Y Z for advice on that topic." or "This is the way I cut dovetails, there is a another tradition that does it pins first, but this is how I have learned to do it". Then I would have a lot more respect for him. 

In general, I do not understand why you would like to learn from someone whos work isn't inspiring. Peter Follansbee's work is inspiring, both method wise and the quality of the finished pieces. Jögge Sundqvist as well. Peter Follansbee makes very instructive videos, Jögge Sundqvist I know is a generous and inspiring teacher in person as well as a very skilled craftsman. Rob Cosman and Peter Sellers does not make any pieces that inspire me. Same thing with Rex Krueger (even though he seems like a decent enough fellow) and most other youtubers.


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## Jacob (19 Dec 2022)

Jorny said:


> ....
> 
> In general, I do not understand why you would like to learn from someone whos work isn't inspiring.,,,,


As a beginner you might actually learn something from Sellers in spite of the dullness of his work.
He's practical and methodical - inspiration comes later, in fact probably better to avoid being inspired too soon!
I don't think you'd learn a lot from either of our prima donnas in this thread; Derek; immaculate stuff but out on a limb of his own, D_W because he doesn't seem to make anything or ever say anything useful or interesting. 
Funny old world!


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## John Brown (19 Dec 2022)

Jorny said:


> The problem with Sellers is that it seems like he likes being a "guru" so much that he gives out really bad advice about things that he really doesn't know that much about, instead of giving an honest answer or recommending that you look to someone else. Seeing him working with an axe and knife is painful (and his bad technique will make people think that they can't use these tools with precision) compared with someone like Peter Follansbee, Julia Kalthoff or Jögge Sundqvist. He also makes really ugly spoons with a complicated method.
> 
> That is why I have a problem with him. If he would just show a little humility and say something like; "I don't know much about this, look to X Y Z for advice on that topic." or "This is the way I cut dovetails, there is a another tradition that does it pins first, but this is how I have learned to do it". Then I would have a lot more respect for him.
> 
> In general, I do not understand why you would like to learn from someone whos work isn't inspiring. Peter Follansbee's work is inspiring, both method wise and the quality of the finished pieces. Jögge Sundqvist as well. Peter Follansbee makes very instructive videos, Jögge Sundqvist I know is a generous and inspiring teacher in person as well as a very skilled craftsman. Rob Cosman and Peter Sellers does not make any pieces that inspire me. Same thing with Rex Krueger (even though he seems like a decent enough fellow) and most other youtubers.


Maybe one man's "inspiring" is another man's "daunting".
I'm not a fanatic about any of these YouTube chaps, but I find it weird how vitriolic some people get(talking about you here, D_W).
I also recognise that most of them need to make a few quid out of posting stuff on YouTube. Whether that's via selling expensive carp, courses, donations or sponsorship.


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## recipio (19 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> Andrew Pitts | The Furniture Society
> 
> 
> Andrew Pitts is a largely self-taught studio furnituremaker with 39 years experience. His prior career in the navy as a nuclear engineer unexpectedly prepared him for success as a designer. The discipline necessary to command three warships and operate aircraft carrier nuclear reactors translated…
> ...


That's him. His furniture is tasty and well up to professional standards. A tour of his workshop is jaw dropping.


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## Jorny (19 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> Maybe one man's "inspiring" is another man's "daunting".
> I'm not a fanatic about any of these YouTube chaps, but I find it weird how vitriolic some people get(talking about you here, D_W).
> I also recognise that most of them need to make a few quid out of posting stuff on YouTube. Whether that's via selling expensive carp, courses, donations or sponsorship.


There is no correlation between inspiring and good design and complexity in construction or how much skill it takes to carry out the work. Things can be simple and beautiful. Rococo furniture might take a lot to skill to make by hand, but I am not inspired by it. Neither am I by the work of people such as Cosman or Sellers, because I do not want to make things that look like the things they are making. When there are people to learn from that makes things you appreciate, why not learn from them?


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## Jorny (19 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> As a beginner you might actually learn something from Sellers in spite of the dullness of his work.
> He's practical and methodical - inspiration comes later, in fact probably better to avoid being inspired too soon!
> I don't think you'd learn a lot from either of our prima donnas in this thread; Derek; immaculate stuff but out on a limb of his own, D_W because he doesn't seem to make anything or ever say anything useful or interesting.
> Funny old world!


Yes, you can probably learn something from him. And If I were looking up how to make a specific joint or somesuch and chance up on one of his videos I might look at it before doing the real learning in the workshop. But his hatchet job with hatches makes me wonder about some of the other things as well.


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## D_W (19 Dec 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> And even more long-winded than David! ( just kidding, David …  )



That truth doesn't bother me too much. Not that I carry it as a badge of honor, it just happens. Just like getting offended at seeing what I believe to be someone misleading others out of either being inconsiderate or for their own gain. Not sure why that bothers me as much as it does...maybe I'm a maker's karen.


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## Jacob (19 Dec 2022)

Jorny said:


> Yes, you can probably learn something from him. And If I were looking up how to make a specific joint or somesuch and chance up on one of his videos I might look at it before doing the real learning in the workshop. But his hatchet job with hatches makes me wonder about some of the other things as well.


He doesn't know how to chop mortices either!
But aren't they all like that - you pick and choose what to take notice of?


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## Jorny (19 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> He doesn't know how to chop mortices either!
> But aren't they all like that - you pick and choose what to take notice of?


Just so.


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## sammy.se (19 Dec 2022)

I don't know why everyone is criticising Sellers so much. I like his stuff, especially the fight scenes with Cato.


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## D_W (19 Dec 2022)

recipio said:


> That's him. His furniture is tasty and well up to professional standards. A tour of his workshop is jaw dropping.


There is crispness and life to it. It looks wonderful.


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## D_W (19 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> D_W because he doesn't seem to make anything...



You say this about once a quarter, post nothing you make, and usually in that quarter, I've posted about 5 or 10 things that's I've made. It must be intentional.


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## John Brown (19 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> There is crispness and life to it. It looks wonderful.


I find that totally subjective, but it's an interesting rabbit hole. There is probably something we perceive to be beautiful about functionality, also forms which emulate the natural world in some way may be attractive. Obviously well executed craftsmanship is admired by those who recognise it. Apart from that, it's surely in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion.

A much more interesting discussion than the sharpening debates, or insulting other woodworkers. In my opinion.


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## D_W (19 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> I find that totally subjective, but it's an interesting rabbit hole. There is probably something we perceive to be beautiful about functionality, also forms which emulate the natural world in some way may be attractive. Obviously well executed craftsmanship is admired by those who recognise it. Apart from that, it's surely in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion.
> 
> A much more interesting discussion than the sharpening debates, or insulting other woodworkers. In my opinion.



I don't generally like contemporary furniture. When someone can execute a design I don't care for and it still looks nice and I find it interesting, it's extra points. 

For years on here, I've talked about people trying to do fine work, talking about results and outcomes rather than methods. I see little of it on the hand tool side - and I think its two parts:
1) people aren't actually interested in it, it's too much of an obligation or they really like the methods like some people like coloring books and paint by number. which is an adult thing here now, not just for kids - like for relaxation. 
2) there are a whole lot of people who have egos that won't allow them to post subpar work because they have an outsized opinion of their own standards

Two is an unfortunate consequence of manners and pretension. the solution to worrying about such things is either accept them and then move on (that doesn't mean quit or give up), or actively improve them and disregard what people who don't post anything say. 

I know what's caused a few truly fine makers to leave forums, and it isn't because they just got bored.


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## rafezetter (19 Dec 2022)

For making of jigs an such JSK-koubou. This guy has made some exceptional jigs, some that are forehead slapping "why didn't I think of that"?

He's made his own version of Bridge City tools sliding saw cutter thing, which looks just as good if not better.


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## scubadoo (19 Dec 2022)

I like the usual uspects like the woodwhisperer, J Katz Moses, and the guys from Netflix's Making Fun but also these ones who are more active on instagram - TwoMooseDesign, echopeakdesign, ashleyharwoodturning, and thehouseoftimber (some of her signs are just great graphic design).

And for something outside of the box, a bit of wood craft and outdoors skills, ted.baird


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## ColinDeVelen (20 Dec 2022)

I read a book on leadership a fair few years ago, and it mentioned that there were three phases to self expression.
The first phase is where you act like a sponge, taking in all the different ways to do a thing, the tools you need, the attitude to have.
The second is where you get confused because it doesn't come as easily as you thought it would.
The third is when you develop your own style and no longer need to follow other people.
A lot of the discussions around the different channels seem to flow primarily in this first phase. Then, actually getting splinters, getting your tools out, trying, failing, fixing, trying again, etc is the second phase. Once you get to the point where you can be inspired to make something, but without having to follow the directions in the article or the video, and without having to say 'I can't do that because I don't have a.....' then you have found your own style and are in that third phase.
A few times now people have approached me and shown me a picture of something and asked me if I can make it for them. I probably don't make it the same way that the original was made, or the same way that a lot of the people here would make it, but they are very happy with the result (which for me, is the main thing). However, I would not be able to be where I am now without that first phase, and all the different books and magazine articles I have read, demonstrations at woodworking shows, youtube videos etc.


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## Matress (20 Dec 2022)

Jordan Peterson. Perhaps the world's leading intellectual.


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## stuart little (20 Dec 2022)

Just for fun:- what about Woodgirl & Biker Stuff!!!
 ?


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2022)

I don't follow anyone but Paul Sellers routine email pointed me to this: Signs of the Two planes - Paul Sellers' Blog
Seems fairly harmless, simple stuff and good advice.
I can see why he annoys our prima donnas - he's very popular and seems to have a massive following!


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2022)

Matress said:


> Jordan Peterson. Perhaps the world's leading intellectual.


World's leading t wat IMHO!

I tend to get distracted by youtube and drift off in other directions:


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## SadGeek (20 Dec 2022)

Graham Blackburn Woodworking
Crimson Custom Guitars
Stumpy Nubs
This Old Tony
Gosforth Handyman
The Post Apocalyptic Inventor
Pask Makes
Andy Phillip Woodturning
Peter Millard
Manor Wood
John McGrath
Lisa Ramlow
TheNaturalWorkshop
Foureyes Furniture
3x3Custom - Tamar
The Carpenter's Daughter - Vikkie Lee
Sweet T Guitars
New Yorkshire Workshop
Rag 'n' Bone Brown


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## John Brown (20 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> World's leading t wat IMHO!
> 
> I tend to get distracted by youtube and drift off in other directions:



A little sharp, I thought. Could use a bit of flattening.


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## Bojam (20 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> World's leading t wat IMHO!



Agreed, he’s got to be right up there!


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## thetyreman (20 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> World's leading t wat IMHO!


couldn't agree more lol


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> I don't follow anyone but Paul Sellers routine email pointed me to this: Signs of the Two planes - Paul Sellers' Blog
> Seems fairly harmless, simple stuff and good advice.
> I can see why he annoys our prima donnas - he's very popular and seems to have a massive following!



Looks like he makes things up just like some other people we know! I would like to hear him name the people who broke stanley plastic handles in cold weather without dropping planes. The number would be zero.

I wonder if he got the idea to make this post because I just went on at length about quality problems in stanley's new planes. he knows a tenth of what I know about planes and less than half of what I know using them, but he can certainly make more money off of convincing people. Both old and new beginners.

I don't care how big his following is - he intentionally ignores better information than he provides and then sticks his paying customers with garbage.

The post about honing oil drying was humorous, by the way. I was assuming that you said that trolling - I hope nobody believes it, though, as some here may be new and think that's actually true.


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## John Brown (20 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> Looks like he makes things up just like some other people we know! I would like to hear him name the people who broke stanley plastic handles in cold weather without dropping planes. The number would be zero.
> 
> I wonder if he got the idea to make this post because I just went on at length about quality problems in stanley's new planes. he knows a tenth of what I know about planes and less than half of what I know using them, but he can certainly make more money off of convincing people. Both old and new beginners.
> 
> ...


Do give it a rest. Please!


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> Do give it a rest. Please!



too close to talking about woodworking for your tastes?


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## Ttrees (20 Dec 2022)

Too honest isn't a bad thing if you actually want to become capable instead of pretending.
Frequently pointing this out might not be bad either,
unless you faced getting locked up for criticizing someones "lifestyle"......

in which case you'd might take some lessons from Jordon Peterson about that.
I hear they've been after him for quite a while.


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2022)

Ttrees said:


> ....
> unless you faced getting locked up for criticizing someones "lifestyle"......
> 
> in which case you'd might take some lessons from Jordon Peterson about that.
> I hear they've been after him for quite a while.


Who has been after him?
They haven't had much success he pops up all over the place, even on woodwork forums!
Are we talking cancel culture and no-platforming here?


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## John Brown (20 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> too close to talking about woodworking for your tastes?


Yes. I've never claimed to be anything other than a rank beginner/wood butcher. I visit here in the hope of learning something useful, but end up reading your boastful put downs of other woodworkers.


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## Ttrees (20 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> Yes. I've never claimed to be anything other than a rank beginner/wood butcher. I visit here in the hope of learning something useful, but end up reading your boastful put downs of other woodworkers.


Is that reason enough for anyone to *discredit actual techniques?*, I think not,
unless one has_ already put their eggs in one basket_.

You folks do know there's a mute button on youtube, you don't need to listen,
just see with your eyes.
Can't argue with sensible woodworking.


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## John Brown (20 Dec 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Is that reason enough for anyone to *discredit actual techniques?*, I think not,
> unless one has_ already put their eggs in one basket_.
> 
> You folks do know there's a mute button on youtube, you don't need to listen,
> ...


I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your point is.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> Yes. I've never claimed to be anything other than a rank beginner/wood butcher. I visit here in the hope of learning something useful, but end up reading your boastful put downs of other woodworkers.



I guess my point is, I'm telling you why Paul's information is bad. Obviously, it fits a pattern (paul's pattern), but I've had three of those plastic handle stanley planes, and I've used two of them appreciably more than the other (the one that I just got, I put in the trash yesterday - it was more of a curiosity shot and rather than figure out what to do with it, I'm sending it to waste management and I'll let them figure it out). 

Embedded in paul's blogs is always nonsense, and some of it is misleading. Plastic handles, not the biggest deal in the world, but I would bet very poor odds at lloyds that he's never seen anyone break plastic handles in use because it was cold. So why put it in there? It all adds to the "I'm the arbiter of what you need to know". 

But, for woodworking - it doesn't matter if you're a beginner or spent 10 years taking test shavings and you're ready to move up. Talking about other subjects and scuffling over telling other people what they should or shouldn't talk about is an instant reward. Charging yourself with making things, talking about them, and ignoring anyone critical about it is a delayed reward, but it's one much greater. It's worth figuring out. I'm somewhat interested in how we can actually get people to talk about woodworking, and some of that is getting away from the idea that "this one guy has the way". 

some of paul's advice is the kind that will convince you that certain things in hand work are too hard, like basic routine planing that was matured 225 years ago, and now is somehow off the table. 

I don't tend to snark peoples' attempts at good work, even when they're beginners. I don't think too many here do, and I'm not by any means a fine maker - just an intermediate amateur whose tool knowledge is past my knowledge especially of furniture making. But that thing still nags at me - why does almost nobody want to talk about actual woodwork - especially on the hand tool side, and when someone does post it (not me, nobody has to celebrate anything I've made) why does it usually bring crickets. 

On the tool front, if you learn two things from me that paul doesn't seem to be able to teach and you can apply them and you tell everyone I'm a terrible person, that's still a good trade to me. If you learn two things that i don't know and bring them back to the forums and the gurus never come up at all in any of it, and I learn something good, that would be fantastic.


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## Ttrees (20 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your point is.


Just compare all folks approaches, generally the folks who's really got something to say, can back it up if you seek it out.
There's a lot of absolute bull about which is plain to see, if you compare.

One's opinion or feelings, is best not compromised by way of their wallet.
This happens a lot, as is evident in lots of ways.
Some may dislike Cosman even more, but I'd rather be fooled into buying a tool that I didn't need rather than useless information, as I could sell one, but not the other.

All the best
Tom


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## thetyreman (20 Dec 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Just compare all folks approaches, generally the folks who's really got something to say, can back it up if you seek it out.
> There's a lot of absolute bull about which is plain to see, if you compare.
> 
> One's opinion or feelings, is best not compromised by way of their wallet.
> ...


I've yet to see cosman make even one useful video where I've thought 'ah yes that's really good I'll try that' literally nothing he's ever done, but instead of moaning about it I just don't watch it and move on.


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## John Brown (20 Dec 2022)

All my planes have wooden handles, but doing a quick search, I see this has come up before, and on this forum. It seems PS wrote about it 6 years ago. I suppose what puzzles me is why you think he'd make something like that up - just because you've never come across the problem doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened. I've never suffered from gout. 
Maybe he's planning to market a range of beech upgrade plane handles?
To be honest, the whole "lifestyle" bit irritates me too - much more so in his written stuff than the videos, but I wouldn't think to denigrate his value as a teacher based on that. His grammar's not too hot either, but he has been making stuff for a living for many years, whereas, with all due respect, I get the impression that D_W is more of a hobbyist.


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## Ttrees (20 Dec 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I've yet to see cosman make even one useful video where I've thought 'ah yes that's really good I'll try that' literally nothing he's ever done, but instead of moaning about it I just don't watch it and move on.


Just because you might be familiar with much sensible methods of his,
i.e not planing a panel in a vice, or not sawing into your bench,
doesn't mean that it may be new to other newcomers.

Fair to say the work is much more honest than the other chap.


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## thetyreman (20 Dec 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Just because you might be familiar with much sensible methods of his,
> i.e not planing a panel in a vice, or not sawing into your bench,
> doesn't mean that it may be new to other newcomers.
> 
> Fair to say the work is much more honest than the other chap.


It's fair to say that cosman is 100% a conman and snake oil salesman, I have actually watched some videos all the way through and still get nothing from it, I'm not one of these people with ultra short attention spans, in fact the more I watch it the more baffled I am by him and the more I dislike him.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> All my planes have wooden handles, but doing a quick search, I see this has come up before, and on this forum. It seems PS wrote about it 6 years ago. I suppose what puzzles me is why you think he'd make something like that up - just because you've never come across the problem doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened. I've never suffered from gout.
> Maybe he's planning to market a range of beech upgrade plane handles?
> To be honest, the whole "lifestyle" bit irritates me too - much more so in his written stuff than the videos, but I wouldn't think to denigrate his value as a teacher based on that. His grammar's not too hot either, but he has been making stuff for a living for many years, whereas, with all due respect, I get the impression that D_W is more of a hobbyist.



I guess here's a poll - who here used an undamaged plastic handled stanley plane and broke the handles on it. 

I hate to say it (OK, I don't actually) , but I have broken handles on several planes. I just broke a plastic handle on a belt sander, and breaking them gave a clue as to how and why the breaks in various plane handles are where they are. Almost without exception, handle breaks in wooden and metal planes are due to someone dropping the plane. it doesn't have to be far. 

I've dropped a bunch of saws by accident, too 

Stanley planes with plastic handles won't suffer a drop too well. the ones with hard rubber probably would.

wooden planes can fall and land on their *sides* without the handle hitting the floor and the handle will break off even when it's flexed all over the place for hundreds of board feet of wood. 

You are right, I am an amateur. I could make tools professionally, but I choose not to. I have occasionally made things out of wood for people / community organizations locally and fixed things on offer of being paid, but then choose not to accept payment for them. That's a personal thing for me, which direction do I want to go and who do I want to make things for. I do often charge for materials and consumables when making tools or knives, but nothing more. it seems not unfair to me if I'm sure that the item being made is comparable to something that would cost 5 times as much made at profit, for example. 

The person reason that I don't just shut down all of the experimenting and just make things for pay is I watched my mother do it. She was sort of a wide eyed artist, but at some point, she got frustrated with what she could get for her artwork and started making painted stuff for the craft circuit. And she began to really like the feedback and the satisfaction of getting paid. She did it for 40 years and completely dropped everything that she really otherwise enjoyed. 

as soon as you start offering things for sale, I've already had the problem with chisels a little bit - you begin to get emails from people you don't know asking if you'll make them something because they got a hold of a couple of your tools, and it would take little time to fall into the trap of having that be all consuming, even though you could charge and make money. People will try to throw money at you and offer ridiculous amounts - would they follow through and pay? i don't know. I'll do something professionally when I retire and there is time to do the curious part and the paying part.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

thetyreman said:


> It's fair to say that cosman is 100% a conman and snake oil salesman, I have actually watched some videos all the way through and still get nothing from it, I'm not one of these people with ultra short attention spans, in fact the more I watch it the more baffled I am by him and the more I dislike him.



he is focused on two things, and some of this is my opinion:
1) bringing in beginners and continuing to bring them in
2) offering two different revenue streams

I've said before on here several times - if you're just starting out and you have to get to cosman or sellers and that's how you get here, that's fine. with either one of them, if you have had no chance at all to get in the shop and you're still hooked after a year, I guess hit the reset button and count another year. 

if you're in the shop making things, you've got to find something you want to make well and really go further on your own because those guys are a dead end. 

I don't think it's reasonable to believe you can really create a business like either paul or rob has and offer a ladder of true improvement and perhaps resulting in things like lonnie bird's students make, or NBSS students. the number of people who actually get involved and who will want to do that is too small, and the second a group of new beginners is looking for the "three chord song book" equivalent and you're talking about something a level up, they'll look for the next guy. 

it's necessity. 

both of the guys now have a business with employees - they have other obligations, and making you good at getting better woodworking and developing as a maker and seeking more information isn't going to be their goal. I'd struggle with that as a business owner if I were in their shoes, because then it's not just "I'll give as good of advice as a I can, and if it puts me out of business eventually, that's OK".


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## thetyreman (20 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> I don't think it's reasonable to believe you can really create a business like either paul or rob has and offer a ladder of true improvement and perhaps resulting in things like lonnie bird's students make, or NBSS students. the number of people who actually get involved and who will want to do that is too small, and the second a group of new beginners is looking for the "three chord song book" equivalent and you're talking about something a level up, they'll look for the next guy.
> 
> it's necessity.


eh?


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## raffo (20 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> All my planes have wooden handles, but doing a quick search, I see this has come up before, and on this forum. It seems PS wrote about it 6 years ago. I suppose what puzzles me is why you think he'd make something like that up - just because you've never come across the problem doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened. I've never suffered from gout.
> Maybe he's planning to market a range of beech upgrade plane handles?
> To be honest, the whole "lifestyle" bit irritates me too - much more so in his written stuff than the videos, but I wouldn't think to denigrate his value as a teacher based on that. His grammar's not too hot either, but he has been making stuff for a living for many years, whereas, with all due respect, I get the impression that D_W is more of a hobbyist.


If you can manage to get past D_W's off putting kind of know-it-all attitude you'll find that he has good information to offer. I sympathize with his attitude regarding the output of the internet gurus. I opinion is that their objective is to create content to be consumed, whether it is useful or gets you past the novice stage is not their main goal.

Yes, the whole lifestyle pseudo-philosophy side is BS. Reminds me of all the personality worship of the western pseudo-spiritual crowd.

This reminds me of JP Sears, he's very funny.


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## Stigmorgan (20 Dec 2022)

Odair Lucas just released this


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

raffo said:


> If you can manage to get past D_W's off putting kind of know-it-all attitude you'll find that he has good information to offer.



It's only in a narrow range. I guess it's a sign of giving up on the idea of what usually happens. "why should i believe you over _____". 

Advice is then chosen based on personality or perceived personality things. People seem to like either cosman or sellers because they imagine things they like about both people and don't know them deeply personally so they assume that nothing unlikeable would be there. 

sort of the same thing that happens when people like celebrities or someone locally who seems to be someone they admire, and have resentment for friends and relatives strictly because they know more about those folks. 

what's less easy to figure out (I have no reservations about saying I know more about planes or hand tools in general than paul, and rob may be sitting on secrets, but I doubt he knows as much about planes as I do - both of them know more than I do on a huge menu of other topics, not the least of which is not turning off beginners) - is weeding out the people who really aren't looking to progress unless it only makes them feel good. 

or put differently, for anyone where the conduit is more important than the result, there's not much chance of success. 

And that is exactly what moved a lot of the fine workers off of the forums - seeing that the outcome of providing good advice didn't result in it being used. I remember George (who knows 100x more about 100x more things than I do) eventually got to the point where he would not apologize for being direct about things where his background is definitive and deeper. 

Selling the message to everyone is a much more nuanced shell game or exclusion of things in some cases. As in, a good salesman doesn't talk about a competitor at all, and they also stay away from whether or not what they're selling or advising is better for them than it is you - it's practical avoidance for the goal.


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## John Brown (20 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> I guess here's a poll - who here used an undamaged plastic handled stanley plane and broke the handles on it.
> 
> I hate to say it (OK, I don't actually) , but I have broken handles on several planes. I just broke a plastic handle on a belt sander, and breaking them gave a clue as to how and why the breaks in various plane handles are where they are. Almost without exception, handle breaks in wooden and metal planes are due to someone dropping the plane. it doesn't have to be far.
> 
> ...


It would be a fairly meaningless poll, as this forum is majority UK based, and the stuff I read was talking about the plastic becoming brittle at very low temperatures. The sample size would be miniscule, in my opinion.


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2022)

I've got an old Stanley 3 which is top quality in every way. Took me some time to realise it had plastic handles. Knob and handle both perfectly shaped and look like some sort of rosewood. Then I noticed a trace of a seam across the top of the handle, not the knob. 
OTOH some wooden handles are c rap.
Hope that helps!


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## sammy.se (20 Dec 2022)

Of the planes I own, 100% of plastic handled ones (which is two) are intact.
100% of the wooden handled ones I have (which is one) is broken.
100% of the metal handled planes (a block plane and router plane) are intact. 

Hope that helps.

Let me know if you'd like me to start a blog. Don't forget to like and subscribe!


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## Ttrees (20 Dec 2022)

You'd think Rob would take things to the next level, but he has a business based on constant newcomers.

Still, at least one can see some good habits, *enough to progress sensibly*, compared to staying where one is and not learning anything at all.

Some of the Cosman haters seem to forget the part about learners not being able to decipher much more sensible work habits.
That may take some time for some to be convinced of, obviously many still in the woods yet.

Ya know, it's the things you wouldn't even think about, take the absence of the *angle poise lamp* in many woodworker guru videos, 
That's something which will likely make one aware of who's talking out their back passage.


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2022)

Ttrees said:


> You'd think Rob would take things to the next level, but he has a business based on constant newcomers.
> 
> Still, at least one can see some good habits, *enough to progress sensibly*, compared to staying where one is and not learning anything at all.
> 
> ...


Are you saying an angle poise lamp is a good or bad indicator? Is an angle poise lamp the answer to all my problems? Mounted in the back passage? 
It makes sense come to think.  I'll try anything once, er, perhaps.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

John Brown said:


> It would be a fairly meaningless poll, as this forum is majority UK based, and the stuff I read was talking about the plastic becoming brittle at very low temperatures. The sample size would be miniscule, in my opinion.



I agree - to some extent. I've used a few planes with the plastic handles in the shop dead of winter (shop gets to about freezing point on days when it's below outside), no issues. 

I've had not so great luck dropping a plane, even off of a saw bench where it was against smarter ideas "stored" while something big is on the bench, and having the handles not break when the plane hits the floor. 

I sniff out in this case a desire to say something that didn't need to be made up, but it's part of the pattern. Just like the comment on the post about making tools that the tradesmen making irons were just downtrodden working on a shoestring and not interested quality so you can just get a torch, stick it on an iron and put the iron in the bottom of a soda can and one up them. 

There is one thing that you can do to improve the plastic handles should you ever come across them - scrape the seam off. it's the one thing about them that you will notice even after you're working on something long enough to forget that they're plastic.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

this whole thread poses an interesting opportunity. if you're not making things but you feel like you want to and are a little lost, how can we get you making things?

I'd love to be able to say that I can make people mad enough to make things to prove me wrong, but that's not the trigger for the prickliness, anyway. 

this isn't unique to this forum - speaking from a hand tool background. The things made thread is a kind of wonderful display of work still being done, just not too much is hand tool stuff, which seems to have run its course other than being a curiosity that people will watch to imagine or criticize.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

sammy.se said:


> Of the planes I own, 100% of plastic handled ones (which is two) are intact.
> 100% of the wooden handled ones I have (which is one) is broken.
> 100% of the metal handled planes (a block plane and router plane) are intact.
> 
> ...



that's five! i've got two belt sanders with handles that feel like something similar to bakelite. i've had both less than a year and now one is broken  

The handle houses the trigger and the wiring, so it's kind of hard to work around. Not a tool that I need, but a bummer none the less. 

it didn't break from holding it too hard, it broke because I knocked the sander off of something about 18 inches high and it landed on the handle. 

I've broken the handles of five planes dropping them. 

four of them, I made, which somehow results in not much care being given to keeping them in the center of the bench or somewhere safe. three beech, one rosewood. the last was a malleable iron plane - those planes hold up well when they fall, but the handles don't. 

I used to worry about beech open handled jack planes, because when you're not used to them, you can feel the handle flex a little in use. but the only one that's broken was one that fell. that i made. It's the example of a plane that hit the floor on its side and landed flat like a book, and the handle still broke off.


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## thetyreman (20 Dec 2022)

the original poster of this thread hasn't posted a thing since 2017 by the way, so in a way all this is pointless, just saying.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

thetyreman said:


> the original poster of this thread hasn't posted a thing since 2017 by the way, so in a way all this is pointless, just saying.



if we can solve the mystery of why people drag their feet going to the shop and making things (me personally for the first five years in indecision about both failing and what to make and how) all will not be lost.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

plus, raffo got to call me off putting 

And he's actually seen offputting in person when i'm in the middle of a buzz trying to figure things out.


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## Jameshow (20 Dec 2022)

Those who can do ...do.

Those who can't ...teach...

Those who can't teach ....YouTube!


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## Sgian Dubh (20 Dec 2022)

I find this whole old revived thread fascinating. It's interesting to me primarily because this subject of YouTube woodworkers/'gurus' (whatever you want to call them), plus blogs on the topic is almost completely unseen by me, yet it discusses in a one-step removed way the subject that has been my way of making a living for many years one way or another, as a designer, maker and educator. I think it is probably an exaggeration to say I've watched as many as ten to twenty woodworking videos on YouTube in the site's lifetime of about sixteen years. Before that you had to get videos on disk or tape, and I seldom watched any of those offerings either.

Yet such videos seem to be of great interest and perhaps learning to many people, as evidenced by the discussion in this thread, and also it seems certain presenters (gurus?) evoke a great deal of passion. In truth, I've never really felt an interest or need to seek skills or inspiration from such videos. It's always seemed to be the case that I'd got other things I'd rather do than spend my spare time watching other people either working with tools or making stuff. Maybe that's because so much of my working time has involved doing pretty much the same thing that I imagined the presenters were likely to be doing.

Still, it's interesting to me to see how many people that contribute to this forum, and likely other forums, seem to find such sources of information (good or bad, maybe) interesting to them. Maybe I've spent too much of my time under a rock and ignoring such offerings, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I find this whole old revived thread fascinating. It's interesting to me primarily because this subject of YouTube woodworkers/'gurus' (whatever you want to call them), plus blogs on the topic is almost completely unseen by me, yet it discusses in a one-step removed way the subject that has been my way of making a living for many years one way or another, as a designer, maker and educator. I think it is probably an exaggeration to say I've watched as many as ten to twenty woodworking videos on YouTube in the site's lifetime of about sixteen years. Before that you had to get videos on disk or tape, and I seldom watched any of those offerings either.
> 
> Yet such videos seem to be of great interest and perhaps learning to many people, as evidenced by the discussion in this thread, and also it seems certain presenters (gurus?) evoke a great deal of passion. In truth, I've never really felt an interest or need to seek skills or inspiration from such videos. It's always seemed to be the case that I'd got other things I'd rather do than spend my spare time watching other people either working with tools or making stuff. Maybe that's because so much of my working time has involved doing pretty much the same thing that I imagined the presenters were likely to be doing.
> 
> Still, it's interesting to me to see how many people that contribute to this forum, and likely other forums, seem to find such sources of information (good or bad, maybe) interesting to them. Maybe I've spent too much of my time under a rock and ignoring such offerings, ha, ha. Slainte.



if you're already doing things, you might find some carnival interest in them, but as derek says, you'd probably be more aggravated. 

Youtube is a big draw, but it's more or less a way to advertise to direct people somewhere else (sellers) or to create sort of an artificial reality where you can collect sponsors and make at least three different types of sponsorship or link revenue money. 

There's not much on it that really looks like going up the ladder to learn about something well, and it's very very difficult to just search and find something good vs. everything else. 

an example would be calton knives, the guy started small and shared a lot of information, but he wouldn't quite give up what he was doing to heat treat. there are hundreds of other videos of people heat treating in a forge, but they're often very wrong, and many that tell you it can't be done and you need to use a furnace (which isn't necessarily true). 

or you can read a book by a guy named verhoeven that talks about how to do heat treatment well in a forge and (I haven't read it) it sounds like what he advises is pretty close to what you end up doing if you're experimenting. but discussion of it on youtube even if his named is mentioned is generally people not doing what they think they're doing. 

does it make a difference? I don't know. Snapping samples and getting steel tested is the only way to know for sure that you're going in the right direction, or testing it yourself. I think people don't like that part, even though it probably saves time in the long run and definitely makes an enormous difference in quality.


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## raffo (20 Dec 2022)

Probably this one: Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel By John D. Verhoeven (2005)









Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel By John D. Verhoeven (2005) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel By John D. Verhoeven (2005)



archive.org


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## D_W (20 Dec 2022)

I think that's the one, yes. mentioned because I've seen it referenced in terms of describing process that can be done by hand to refine grain. 

I didn't read them from there, but whoever relayed them did, so good enough for me. 

the thermal cycling process we went through with your irons is a slight variation (verhoeven's description of what I've seen referred to as descending heats brings forged grain back into a smaller size).

Descriptions of annealing effectively and manipulating the shapes of carbides also probably originate from there. some of them make a bigger difference in preparing for a furnace cycle, but still - they are things to try for the average person attempting to better a commercial tool in hand. 

the items that originate from there are far detached from what you'd see on forged in fire, but a dummy in a garage with two torches, a paint can and some thermal wrap (and parks 50) can do a whole lot using that information. I guess it's sort of the nicholson of garage forge heat treatment. 

if someone went through the whole book, managed to master the stuff and actually put it on youtube, it would be very relevant for the small group who wants to do more than Sellers an iron into soft corners. but understanding the bits of it also allows me to say "if you want to do something like that, get starrett O1, heat it until it's not magnetic - do it evenly so that you can't see a difference in color - and then heat one shade lighter as fast as you can and quench in cooking oil and then dip in water". The very first iron I ever did for a bullnose plane was done like that, and it's excellent. I found ways to get not excellent results after that 

That doesn't work for everything, but it will work for starrett O1 and probably most quality O1 steels. 

YT is lacking this kind of thing, and I wouldn't be the person to get someone to watch it - and in all honesty, most people wouldn't try it, anyway.


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## Ttrees (21 Dec 2022)

Had a quick look for the angle poise lamp in action, 
as it's just one of those must haves,
I tried to search for videos by selecting oldest first, seemingly this option is unavailable, it must be some youtube thing, as Matt Cremona's no horse in that race videos are the same, perhaps I need to get a bit more capable with my youtube skills.

It doesn't help learning one bit, but perhaps I'm just not with it anymore.
Had to search instead for the info.
Just for laughs I took a few screenshots.







Here's an example of bad practice, forgetting about the scrub plane which isn't needed either.
This particular video, actually has some good tips in it, worth noting,
and it's there for folks who want to learn, i.e enough to progress should they not make a mountain range of saw cuts into their bench, and use the saw sensibly.






I think you folks have completely forgotten all of the little things, and are just expecting something new from someone who's primary interest is with newcomers,
and with intermediate newcomers also.
TBH, I would love to see Rob do something different like the older videos.
Yet to see him claim Estlea's belt, which he mentioned didn't go un-noticed.
(that's a fun video to watch)

Just to remind you folks of what I'm talking about,
How ridiculous is this?

Work unsupported causing material deflection, (plane would be coming out of the cut)
Blowing out the edge (important reference whether using winding sticks or the bench)





Not mentioning the rest of the bull either, as it isn't important. 
Oi youse watch it, no sniggering at the back!

Just breaking those two rules is a sure road to failure,
and flattening/dimensioning stock is pretty much the first thing you do after rough crosscutting, so yeah it's important, 
and it's darn well where the snake oil or delusive folks get a good chunk of their income. 

Don't get me wrong, lots of daft things on the internet.
For anyone new to this and wanting to do honest precice work, 
I suggest making it easy for yourself.
Rob's video with the few little tips, then Charlesworth's videos for more precision
and then someone who will actually show you how to use a panel plane or smoother
i.e the cap iron
Say from David W, or perhaps a fella Dusty splinters has a few vids on the subject 
Hernan Costa, or Mr Chickadee, perhaps Face edge might have a wee video also.

Honestly there's only maybe two or three other folks who you will get this info from,
and everyone else has their head in the sand regarding using a hand plane.
Reasoning one might ask...
pride? doubtful,
financial?, likely.

I see it as a win win when someone can benefit from good advice,
there's no need for only half showing things, 
This is where one can stay, or they can progress.
Once one decides their own path, (obviously to better their craft)
they might see what's useless stocking filler, 
what's interesting stuff to compare, 
and the downright bull which instantly becomes apparent.

Enjoy, who ever ya are, I'm sure there's someone taking notes.
All the best


These lamps used to be cheaper, not many to be found, ebay has teeny ones
if looking new, the dimensions are a scam.
Difficult to find used, but the old ones may be bit larger than below?
which is nice on a longer bench.

See what your doing, or be ignorant forever.
Is it worth the extra fiver?


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## sammy.se (21 Dec 2022)

You lot should Club together and make "reaction videos" to other woodworkers. I bet you'll get a following (albeit a grumpy bunch ;-))

Like this:


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## Jorny (21 Dec 2022)

sammy.se said:


> You lot should Club together and make "reaction videos" to other woodworkers. I bet you'll get a following (albeit a grumpy bunch ;-))
> 
> Like this:








Funny thing, Sellers divide while Peterson unites!


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## BearTricks (21 Dec 2022)

I really struggle to find YouTubers I like, but the ones I do like I watch all their stuff. I find I get irritated really easily if I don’t love the presenter but there’s a fine line between dry enough to send me to sleep and too enthusiastic. That said my partner thinks the ones I do like are unbearable. 

I find I have a finely tuned bullshit detector. If I feel like the presenter is hiding something or is being cagey about ads and sponsors it puts me off. I don’t necessarily care if they have poor technique. I find the best videos aren’t instructional but instead show the problem solving process complete with the failures. 

I also find I’m drawn to the flashier production because there’s only so much I can watch of someone taking shavings off a dovetail. Woodwork doesn’t always lend itself to exciting video production so I tend to prefer videos on my other interests such as engineering, or pottery. 

Frank Howarth is one whose videos I’ll always watch. Matt Estlea too although his skits don’t always do it for me.


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## Matress (21 Dec 2022)

thetyreman said:


> couldn't agree more lol


You sound like twitter users.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Had a quick look for the angle poise lamp in action,
> as it's just one of those must haves,
> I tried to search for videos by selecting oldest first, seemingly this option is unavailable, it must be some youtube thing, as Matt Cremona's no horse in that race videos are the same, perhaps I need to get a bit more capable with my youtube skills.
> 
> ...


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## monster (21 Dec 2022)

Jacob said:


> He seems to be an utterly harmless old chap giving out useful advice and burbling about life and the universe.


Sellers? - or have we reverted to Corbyn...


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## D_W (21 Dec 2022)

BearTricks said:


> I find I have a finely tuned bullshit detector. If I feel like the presenter is hiding something or is being cagey about ads and sponsors it puts me off.



There are two instant no-gos for me. first, the guy with stuff in his shop that's not being used, especially if it's coordinated like a sponsor trying to get all of their wares displayed. 

Second, look below the video either for sponsored content, extreme e-begging or amazon links to all kinds of nonsense. Or any links to websites selling stuff - if you click on a link and it says "redir" or "token", as my english friend here says "that person is an ___hole". 

that will eliminate almost everything, but it's sort of like watching news that doesn't have anything to do with your life - it's a false sense that there's something useful you'd get from it in the first place.


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## mikej460 (21 Dec 2022)

D_W said:


> There are two instant no-gos for me. first, the guy with stuff in his shop that's not being used, especially if it's coordinated like a sponsor trying to get all of their wares displayed.
> 
> Second, look below the video either for sponsored content, extreme e-begging or amazon links to all kinds of nonsense. Or any links to websites selling stuff - if you click on a link and it says "redir" or "token", as my english friend here says "that person is an ___hole".
> 
> that will eliminate almost everything, but it's sort of like watching news that doesn't have anything to do with your life - it's a false sense that there's something useful you'd get from it in the first place.


Yes I agree that a shop full of carefully positioned Dewalt/Makita/Festool etc. all of which look brand new is off putting and I often click away from these. Like most, I have stuck with one or two brands of cordless (in my case Dewalt and Ryobi with Dewalt adapter) just to save on batteries, but some of these Youtubers are just blatantly plugging sponsors. That's why I prefer the honesty of those such as @petermillard; but you can still gain some snippets of useful tips from some of the others as long as you can put up with a little of the sponsorship nonsense.


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## JoeS (27 Dec 2022)

I love Ishitani on youtube. I love his design as much as his work.


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