# japanese chisel problem- tool or user?



## markturner (17 Mar 2011)

I know, almost certainly user ! let me explain - I have just got a set of these from Rutlands, these: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/ch ... -chiselsse: 

I am new to using this type of chisels, but have read great things about them. I am a carpenter of 30 years experience, albeit it mostly in the heavier end of the trade rather than fine cabintry, which I am pursuing now as a hobby, so I do feel I know my way around a tool and am not a novice by any means. However, the first time I used 2 of the chisels, both of them broke - I mean one the corner of the blade snapped off when I was carefully paring the corner of a rebate and the other last night when I was removing the remains of some beech from a mortice. I had made several cuts on the table saw, 40mm deep, leaving 1 - 2 millimteres of beech between each cut, then I started to remove the pieces by cutting away with the chisels from the end. The first tap of the hammer and a small section of the blade edge in the middle where it struct the beech chipped away. 

i realise they are more brittle than normal chisels, but surely this is not normal or right? Or should I only use them on really fine delicate work? Most of what I do is hardwood work, so I need a very good sharp set of chisels.

Cheers, Mark


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## Modernist (17 Mar 2011)

Hi - I'm sorry to say I had exactly the same experience as you although from a different supplier. One outcome is that it is better to hone a single 30 deg bevel rather than grind at 25 deg so you get maximum support for the edge. I ended up selling them as I also found the handles small and uncomfortable to use. 

I do use Japanese paring chisels and recently bought an excellent one with a long wooden handle which is never struck. I think if it is ground/honed to 30 deg and still breaks up in hand use I would send them back.

There is no doubt that the Japanese construction gives a better edge but you have to look a the whole picture.


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## Jacob (17 Mar 2011)

They are designed to be hit with a hammer i.e. heavy work. Send them back.


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## bugbear (17 Mar 2011)

markturner":26llnoay said:


> I know, almost certainly user ! let me explain - I have just got a set of these from Rutlands, these: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/ch ... -chiselsse:
> 
> I am new to using this type of chisels, but have read great things about them. I am a carpenter of 30 years experience, albeit it mostly in the heavier end of the trade rather than fine cabintry, which I am pursuing now as a hobby, so I do feel I know my way around a tool and am not a novice by any means. However, the first time I used 2 of the chisels, both of them broke - I mean one the corner of the blade snapped off when I was carefully paring the corner of a rebate and the other last night when I was removing the remains of some beech from a mortice. I had made several cuts on the table saw, 40mm deep, leaving 1 - 2 millimteres of beech between each cut, then I started to remove the pieces by cutting away with the chisels from the end. The first tap of the hammer and a small section of the blade edge in the middle where it struct the beech chipped away.
> 
> ...



These are defective - try searching youtube for Japanese carpenters at work; the chisels are meant for real loading.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (17 Mar 2011)

markturner":3i1df6d7 said:


> I know, almost certainly user ! let me explain - I have just got a set of these from Rutlands, these: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/ch ... -chiselsse:
> 
> I am new to using this type of chisels, but have read great things about them. I am a carpenter of 30 years experience, albeit it mostly in the heavier end of the trade rather than fine cabintry, which I am pursuing now as a hobby, so I do feel I know my way around a tool and am not a novice by any means. However, the first time I used 2 of the chisels, both of them broke - I mean one the corner of the blade snapped off when I was carefully paring the corner of a rebate and the other last night when I was removing the remains of some beech from a mortice. I had made several cuts on the table saw, 40mm deep, leaving 1 - 2 millimteres of beech between each cut, then I started to remove the pieces by cutting away with the chisels from the end. The first tap of the hammer and a small section of the blade edge in the middle where it struct the beech chipped away.
> 
> ...


I use these chisels all the time and have never had a problem with them. Mine are from Workshop Heaven and can take a lot of punishement, but I always use a *single* bevel at 30deg for anything struck with a hammer and another single bevel of 25deg for those that are just used by hand only...no tapping. If the handle hoops cause discomfort for paring, just cut them off and dowel on an extra piece...see here to see my dovetail paring chisels. It's also important to never use them with a levering action as that's almost guaranteed to chip the edge. With the right honing regime though, I've found that they'll take and keep, a much better edge than a Western chisel - Rob


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## János (17 Mar 2011)

Hello,

do not take gifts from foreigners... Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses. These chisels were developed exactly to that purpose, they can be honed to a keen and very sharp edge, to produce clean cuts in soft and spongy woods. To be able to hold such an edge they are hardened to almost the "hardenability" limits of carbon steel, in the range of HRC 64 and up. But in that range of hardness steel behaves almost like glass, it becomes brittle and fragile. This brittleness does not matter till you use the tool for its intended purpose: to cut very soft woods. But these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods, except for very light hand paring cuts. You have driven yours into beech...

Buy a well made set of European style chisels: they were developed for Western style cabinetwork.

Have a nice day,

János


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (17 Mar 2011)

> Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses.



Not true. Japanese woodworkers use hardwood as much as any other.

These look like Iyoroi, which I have used for about 15 years in hard Australian hardwoods. In fact I have them especially to work in hardwood! They take and hold an edge better than just about anything else. I have bench- and dovetail chisels, which get wacked very hard with a gennou. These have bevels at 30 degrees. Are yours at 30 degrees? I also have slicks (paring chisels) at 25 degrees. These blades are quite thin. In all my years of using Japanese blades I have never had one chip on me. That chisel is defective - send it back. Send the lot back as they may have come from the same poorly hardened batch.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodbloke (17 Mar 2011)

János":26q4sei1 said:


> Hello,
> 
> do not take gifts from foreigners... Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses. These chisels were developed exactly to that purpose, they can be honed to a keen and very sharp edge, to produce clean cuts in soft and spongy woods. To be able to hold such an edge they are hardened to almost the "hardenability" limits of carbon steel, in the range of HRC 64 and up. But in that range of hardness steel behaves almost like glass, it becomes brittle and fragile. This brittleness does not matter till you use the tool for its intended purpose: to cut very soft woods. But these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods, except for very light hand paring cuts. You have driven yours into beech...
> 
> ...


Sorry... complete and utter tosh. The Japanese use plenty of hardwood as well as softwood. Japanese chisels work beautifully in hard *and* soft woods. I can quite cheerfully thump my bench chisels (hardened to RC68) with a big Japanese hammer thirty or so times into English Oak without any degration or blade chipping. That Japanese chisels can only be used in softer woods is a common and often misplaced assumption which has no basis in actual use - Rob


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## bugbear (17 Mar 2011)

János":wi97dz78 said:


> Hello,
> 
> do not take gifts from foreigners... Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses. These chisels were developed exactly to that purpose, they can be honed to a keen and very sharp edge, to produce clean cuts in soft and spongy woods. To be able to hold such an edge they are hardened to almost the "hardenability" limits of carbon steel, in the range of HRC 64 and up. But in that range of hardness steel behaves almost like glass, it becomes brittle and fragile. This brittleness does not matter till you use the tool for its intended purpose: to cut very soft woods. But these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods, except for very light hand paring cuts. You have driven yours into beech...
> 
> ...



Japanese dai makers work in 10 year (and more) seasoned oak!

BugBear


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## János (17 Mar 2011)

Hello,

A stone to muddy water… So some of you actually retested the hardness of your chisels? Awesome…

But my sentences about Japanese craftsmen and softwoods are true. The main woodworking activity in Japan was timber frame construction. There was no such thing as “cabinetmaking”, simply, because they didn’t use "furniture proper”. Making small boxes from softwood for lacquering, or a few shelves from zelkowa are no real base to talk about “Japanese cabinetmaking” or such, and about “plenty” of hardwood used. That is simply not true. The main purpose of these chisels is working softwoods. But, carefully used, they are capable to work hardwoods.

Woodworking is not, and never was science: it is craft, loaded with personal opinions and experiences, and lot of myths, mostly based on beliefs, lore, and misunderstanding. For example, in fact, simple, unalloyed carbon steels have a maximum hardness of just under HRC 66. And in that fully hardened state they are almost useless, and prone to stress cracking. There is time to recheck your tool myths…

I am a great and longtime admirer of the Japanese culture of wood and woodcraft, and a cabinetmaker myself, but that is no excuse for me to lose or give up my objectivity.

Just use what equipment or tool you prefer, but do not blame the maker if your choice was wrong.

Have a nice day,

János


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## markturner (17 Mar 2011)

not sure what the bevel is, as they seemed pretty sharp as delivered and like I say, i have only used them twice. does anyone else have experience of these particular brand from rutlands?

Cheers, mark


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## Jacob (17 Mar 2011)

János":1e3voh3g said:


> .....
> Just use what equipment or tool you prefer, but do not blame the maker if your choice was wrong.
> 
> Have a nice day,
> ...


Right or wrong (János sounds convincing I must say) you can blame the retailer for not knowing and not passing on the information. Send em back!

PS I sometimes wonder if people don't realise that it is the retailer who is responsible for faulty goods. It's up to them to deal with the makers, not our problem at all. Do Rutlands say anything about only suitable for softwood etc? No? Send em back.

So the answer to the question "japanese chisel problem- tool or user?" is "retailer".


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## woodbloke (17 Mar 2011)

János":3cm4bi11 said:


> Hello,
> 
> There was no such thing as “cabinetmaking”, simply, because they didn’t use "furniture proper”. Making small boxes from softwood for lacquering, or a few shelves from zelkowa are no real base to talk about “Japanese cabinetmaking” or such, and about “plenty” of hardwood used. That is simply not true.


Wrong again :roll: ...Japanese tansu certainly aren't 'small boxes' 

















Here are just three images at random of classic tansu, all made from hardwood. A little research before you post might be advantagous. 'Nuff said on the matter - Rob


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## Alf (17 Mar 2011)

János":1fzee76z said:


> But my sentences about Japanese craftsmen and softwoods are true. The main woodworking activity in Japan was timber frame construction. There was no such thing as “cabinetmaking”, simply, because they didn’t use "furniture proper”. Making small boxes from softwood for lacquering, or a few shelves from zelkowa are no real base to talk about “Japanese cabinetmaking” or such, and about “plenty” of hardwood used. That is simply not true. The main purpose of these chisels is working softwoods. But, carefully used, they are capable to work hardwoods.


Now it may be that Rutlands are selling the Japanese equivalent of the plastic handled chisel designed for site work (highly prized by my local plumber to bash out the plaster around the water mains) - it wouldn't surprise me - but the Japanese do make "real" furniture and they do use hard woods. Your statement is the equivalent of seeing my builder use his blunt #4 to plane up the garage doors he made, which he then held together with at least two whole tubes of expanding glue, and then stating that, for instance, Robert Ingham is a myth.

'Course, the irony is I tried Japanese chisels and couldn't be doing with them at all. But that was me and not the chisels; certainly didn't have the difficulty Mark reports. Sounds like a send 'em back situation to me.


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## Racers (17 Mar 2011)

Hi,

Something from Rutlands turns out to be faulty :shock: that must be a first  :wink:  


Send them back and get your money back.


Pete


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## markturner (17 Mar 2011)

Well, I thought Rutlands was a pretty good site....until i discovered classichandtools.co.uk...!!! I have got a fair bit of stuff from them, mostly veritas, and they are pretty good for choice, but its like driving a ford and then a BMW, That's unanimous then, I will send them back. Is there a particular brand or can I rely on the ones at classic to be the best ( he has some recommended by David Charlesworth) ?

Cheers, Mark


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## Jacob (17 Mar 2011)

markturner":2jwknumn said:


> ..Is there a particular brand ..... ?
> 
> Cheers, Mark


Stanley 5001 (I think, I'll check tomorrow) black handles. Marples and Stanley blue handles. Oldish.
New - Marples, Bahco etc. You can buy a whole set of dung hot top quality chisels for the price of just one trendy fashionable bit of dung!
I bougt a set of these http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... prod31355/
a set for less than half the price of just one trendy etc. They are OK but I'd spend a bit more, say £10 each max.


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## jimi43 (17 Mar 2011)

So I take it you don't like Japanese chisels then Jacob?

Jim


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## Harbo (17 Mar 2011)

I have a set of 5001 & 5002 bought in the 60's
The steel is like soft cheese - must have been made when the workers were always on strike?


Rod


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## Jacob (18 Mar 2011)

jimi43":22wq0gza said:


> So I take it you don't like Japanese chisels then Jacob?
> 
> Jim


Nothing against them at all - but so many of these expensive options turn out to be problematic. They look nice but you don't get much for the money even though you are paying 10 times the price of perfectly OK but boring ordinary equivalents.


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## jimi43 (18 Mar 2011)

Jacob":2bqlrt28 said:


> jimi43":2bqlrt28 said:
> 
> 
> > So I take it you don't like Japanese chisels then Jacob?
> ...



Ah ok.....

Funny enough....my grandfather had the same opinion of Japanese tools.

He spent his life working as a carpenter on the railways....mind you...it was in Burma!

:wink: 

Jim


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## János (18 Mar 2011)

Hello,

Before you talk about Japanese furniture and architecture, you should read a few books about the history of Japan, including their arts and crafts. Here are some good ones to start with:

1.	Engel, Heino: The Japanese House
2.	Nishi Kazuo: What is Japanese Architecture?
3.	Koizumi Kazuko: Traditional Japanese Furniture
4.	Man Sill Pai: Traditional Korean Furniture
5.	S. Azby Brown: The Genius of Japanese Carpentry
6.	Lucie-Smith, Edward: Furniture
7.	Stanley-Baker, Joan: Japanese Art
8.	Guth, Christine: Japanese Art of the Edo Period
9.	Tregear, Mary: Chinese Art
And a few more about materials science… Perhaps…

I have no appetite to lecture any of you about the development and history of Japanese furniture and arcitecture, so educate yourselves, please.

Perhaps some of you have the „Complete Japanese Joinery” of Weatherhill.

It recommends a 32 deg angle for timber morticing, a 20 deg for finishing, 15~20 deg for paring. And recommends these values for softwood: Japanese cypress.
The way to sharpen is a single, flat bevel without micro or secondary bevels. 
And the chisels should not be driven into knots. Knots must be chiseled away in small, careful cuts, to protect the blade.

Working carpenters nowadays use chisels forged from HSS, as those are not that prone to chipping, so more suited to the knottier woods of today.

Won’t be fouled again…

Have a nice day,

János


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## Jacob (18 Mar 2011)

Hello


János":v4fw1ams said:


> .....
> 
> I have no appetite to lecture any of you about the development and history of Japanese furniture and arcitecture, .....


Pleased to hear it! :lol: :lol:

Have a nice day

PS _„Complete Japanese Joinery” of Weatherhill_ - did you mean "The Art of Japanese Joinery" by Kiyosi Seike, published by Weatherhill?
I had a look for the bevel references but couldn't see them. I was interested in the missing angles between 20º and 32º, which must surely be a mistake. Maybe they bought the Veritas "bevel setter" protractor, with the empty segment :lol:


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## János (18 Mar 2011)

Hello,






Yes, I have the volume in a " bound together" form, under the title,"Complete Japanese Joinery".
I am working now, had no time to read the text, but the drawings are self explanatory. Perhaps I have read about the hand sharpening and the merits of slightly convex bevels in an Odate musing. After a few thousand pages and a few decades... but perhaps you too know that. :wink: 

Have a nice day,

János


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## markturner (18 Mar 2011)

Well Rutlands are taking them back and issuing a credit. I think I will get the ones on Classic tools's website as recommended by DC

By the way, the first one I returned, they said they inspected and did pronounce faulty, so who knows, a bad batch, poor quality control? Or maybe just like the advert...
"these are not just japanese chisels, these are classic hand tools japanese chisels.." Perhaps I should have spent more in the first place.


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## woodbloke (18 Mar 2011)

markturner":3ctvsmla said:


> I think I will get the ones on Classic tools's website as recommended by DC


Give consideration also to the professional ones from Workshop Heaven. Probably as good and much cheaper...I've been very happy with mine and have just received an additional four to make my set up to ten. Remember though that a single bevel of 30deg, regardless of what others :roll: might say, is IMO the best way to hone them, particularly if they're to be struck with a hammer. No connection with WH of course - Rob


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## Doug B (18 Mar 2011)

woodbloke":2f7x0p6k said:


> No connection with WH of course - Rob



Rob, this seems a strange thing to say at the end of a post recommending chisels from Workshop Heaven.

You have previously posted saying you have been to a BBQ at Matthew`s, you are friends with Matthew & a couple of days ago started a thread praising his service & saying you had received items free of charge from him.

Surely this shows a connection with Matthew?

I have no problem with Matthew or workshop heaven, indeed i am happy customer of his, but feel you are stretching it a little by saying this.
Or perhaps my BBQ invite is in the post :lol: 


Cheers.


Doug.


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## katellwood (18 Mar 2011)

As you can see I jumped on this slippery slope some years ago and never looked back. I now use my marples/stanley et al for site work and keep these in the workshop. They have always been used with a genno (hammer) and have never had issues with snapping or crumbling cutting edges

I am reliably informed that the rear ones are temple makers chisels and I use these for the more robust work 

Obvious I know but one thing you have to watch out for is that continual grinding will affect the hollows on the rear of the blade so some form of continual flattening of the back is sometimes necessary especially if you have to grind a chip out 

I sharpen mine at approx 30 degrees and finish polishing after a 8000 grit waterstone on a block of endgrain hardwood appprox 10" x 3" (flattened with a block plane but not sanded) then the endgrain filled with a fine polishing compound and lubricated with either WD40 or white spirit. When the compound turns black I know its working. In fact if you look at the last photo the polishing compound I use to polish is by the mortice gauge, believe its actually called buffung soap 

I would highly recommend them to anyone performing bench work 

Mine were purchased from a large tool store based at Ashford Cattle Market , Kent however they do not supply Jap Chisels any more 

I keep threatening to purchase a Japanese plane however not got around to it yet. If anyone has any comments on Jap planes I would be extremely interested in what you have to say


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## woodbloke (18 Mar 2011)

Doug B":63gyzjj4 said:


> woodbloke":63gyzjj4 said:
> 
> 
> > No connection with WH of course - Rob
> ...


I find this comment odd as well Doug. Sure, Matthew is a friend, but he's also knows a lot of other folk on the forum and has been equally generous with the sort of service he has provided, so what he's done for me is nothing out of the ordinary. Perhaps I should have said that I have no *commercial* connection with Workshop Heaven, receive no financial backhanders (or discount) from Workshop Heaven and have not been to any BBQ's at Workshop Heaven. That Matthew provided me FOC with stock that I didn't ask for, that he no longer stocks and was clearly surplus is down to the fact that he was doing me a favour, knowing that I would continue to order hand tools from him in the future...call it a 'backhander' if you like, but it was a generous gesture on Matt's behalf that was worthy of my thanks in an open forum. 
I do, in addition frequent other tool emporiums in common with many others hereabouts and recommend their products if appropriate...and no, your invite to my summer Bash is *not* in the post - Rob


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## Doug B (18 Mar 2011)

woodbloke":15haowbf said:


> Sure, Matthew is a friend,


So you *do* have a connection.

That is all i was pointing out & something you have pointed out on many occasions, so it still seems strange to me that you denied having a connection in your post above.




woodbloke":15haowbf said:


> and no, your invite to my summer Bash is *not* in the post


 I`m sure i`ll survive :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Jacob (18 Mar 2011)

Harbo":3b0dmmsf said:


> I have a set of 5001 & 5002 bought in the 60's
> The steel is like soft cheese - must have been made when the workers were always on strike?
> 
> 
> Rod


They are very good chisels. Probably been over-heated on a grindstone. The blueing disappears quite quickly after a honing but the soft metal may take years to remove by normal sharpening.
I reckon most soft metal in plane blades and chisels is the result of over heating at some point in the past. We've all done it!


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## Harbo (18 Mar 2011)

Pretty sure that's not the case - the black ones I inherited from my father who only used oil stones ( he never possessed a grinder).
The blue ones I bought new, I used oilstones until I bought a Tormek about 5 years ago.

Rod


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## woodbloke (19 Mar 2011)

Doug B":gnnksjjz said:


> woodbloke":gnnksjjz said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, Matthew is a friend,
> ...


Doug, please read carefully (I know you can do it)..I said *COMMERCIAL* connection. I also know very well Steve Maskery, Ian Styles and Philly and also count them as friends, in the same way that you probably have friends and are connected to them, but say again, just so you completely understand...there is no COMMERCIAL connection to either of them - Rob


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## Jacob (19 Mar 2011)

Harbo":1w5tvgfz said:


> Pretty sure that's not the case - the black ones I inherited from my father who only used oil stones ( he never possessed a grinder).
> The blue ones I bought new, I used oilstones until I bought a Tormek about 5 years ago.
> 
> Rod


All I can say is that my few 5001s are noticeably harder than the 5002s and Marples blue handles, which are hard enough themselves. 
When I'm sharpening a 5001 I get the impression that they are laminated with a hard edge and softer back, but I don't know if this is the case.
They are all excellent.


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## Doug B (19 Mar 2011)

woodbloke":2qy56bpa said:


> Doug, please read carefully (I know you can do it)..I said *COMMERCIAL* connection.




I can & did read carefully (i`m glad you have such faith in my reading ability :roll: ), you made no mention of the word * COMMERCIAL* in the first instance, & this first instance is what my posts have referred to.


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## woodbloke (19 Mar 2011)

Doug B":1pbj0o4o said:


> woodbloke":1pbj0o4o said:
> 
> 
> > Doug, please read carefully (I know you can do it)..I said *COMMERCIAL* connection.
> ...


...but I did explain it very clearly to you in the second post, where 'commercial' was written *bold* type, but perhaps it wasn't clear enough...clearly the third post made it crystal - Rob


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## János (19 Mar 2011)

Dear Jacob,

Excuse me for my fault. Actually, the book is “The Complete Japanese Joinery” ISBN 0-88179-121-0. I have bought it in the middle of the 1990s through Weatherhill. It is a bound toghether volume of two books:
Sato Hideo: Japanese Woodworking 
and
Nakahara Yasua: Japanese Joinery

The sharpening reference is in the first book.

I have find (remembered faintly, so looked it up, in fact) an interesting article in FWW No.51. (1985. III/IV), pages 44~48. Worth a look. I copyed the table comparing different makes of chisels:




And there is an interesting sentence from the article:

“Apart from the metal quality and hardness, we noticed some other things about the chisels that shed some light on how carefully they are manufactured. The Japanese chisels were carefully prepared at the factory. They came accurately ground to the 30 deg. bevel recommended by the manufacturers. Setting the steel ring on the handle was the only "tune-up" that these chisels required. The Western chisels, however, were less carefully prepared. Some were ground to a bevel that was way off the 25 deg. most woodworkers aim for, and this required quite a few minutes at the benchstone to correct. The Stanley had a doublebevel knife-edge grind, so the back had to be ground down to remove the extra bevel. I found the Hirsch to be buffed so heavily that the edges were rounded, making it difficult to see if the cutting edge was square to the body or shank.”

The best book about Japanese joinery I have ever seen is:

Sumiyoshi Torashichi and Matsui Gengo: Wood Joints in Classical Japanese Architecture.

Have a nice day,

János


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## Schtoo (20 Mar 2011)

Hi Mark,

I'm new here, but I was alerted to your plight by a friend.

Here's the problem, as I know it to be...

Those Iyoroi chisels are being sold, retail, for about $25-41 (sorry, no pound sign!). That puts them at a Japanese market retail price of about 3200 yen. I regret to say that at this price, there are scant few 'good' Japanese chisels, and none of them have the name "Iyoroi". You can spend more money and get good, proper, no nonsense Iyoroi, you can spend the same money and get a reasonable, non-named (but branded, the guy who made is is un-named) chisel, but you can't buy a 'name' and a 'decent chisel' for that price. 

Caveat, you can luck out and get some fantastic chisels for real cheap, but it's pot luck. Spend more money and buy a known quality chisel, and it's guaranteed to be good. 

I only know this because I've seen both sides of things here in Japan, retail and wholesale because I do run a Japanese tool store. :wink: 

I try my hardest to make sure I keep my prices as low as is reasonable, and I wouldn't sell a chisel at that price without openly stating some reservations about it. I'd still be quite happy selling them, so long as whoever bought it was under no illusion that there is a good chance there might be some reservations... 

I also sell some chisels that carry no reservations whatsoever. Almost to the point that if you have problems, I'll be shocked, impressed and astounded, all at the same time. I've sent off chisels that have been asked to do what the uninitiated would consider to be horrific, nay, verboten things, and they just keep on going. Just ask Derek what he does to the mere slips of metal he smacks through that crazy stuff Aussies (me included) call 'wood'. 

But I didn't come here to rattle on about chisels, no, I came here because things are slow at the moment (massive natural disasters are terrible for business...) and because it was mentioned to me that the old fallacy of "Japanese tools are only for softwood" has been marched out of it's stable again.

You know something, the folks who make the tools here haven't heard about that one yet. Well, that's not entirely true. They have heard about it, but they don't know who started it and can only shake their head at how incorrect it is. 

The biggest plane maker in Japan, Tsunesaburo, dedicates half their impressive catalog to planes that have blade intended for use with hardwood. Half their output is planes intended for hardwood. Of the 20+ standard kanna they list (was mentioned here a week or so ago, yeah, that's me) there are 3 or 4 that are really only intended for softwoods, but to counter that, 5 or so intended ONLY for hardwood, and those ones sell at a rapid clip. 

What those planes are being used on, who can say, but it's not only softwood, especially considering most trim work in houses (and housing is where the fallacy began I believe) is nowadays, Japanese ash and oak. Last time I used them, they were pretty hard woods...

(That kanna are difficult to set up is yet another fallacy, sometimes. But nobody's thrown that bull into the ring yet. Yet...)

Same thing for chisels, no real adjustments needed. Make sure your bevel is at an angle suitable to the work, and have at it. If the edge is failing, it's a case of the chisel is inexpensive with a relative drop in outright quality, the chisel has too fine an edge that is too weak for the task or the person hanging off the end of the chisel is doing something wrong, and on that point ladies and gentlemen, it doesn't matter what chisel you have in your hand, if you're driving it wrong, it's going to give you problems. In my own experience, there's a bit of give and take between Western chisels and Japanese chisels in terms of toughness, durability, edge taking and edge holding. I'm not going to come out and say which is 'better' because that also depends very much on the person hanging off the end of the chisel. 

(I will say that a good quality Japanese chisel is surprisingly tough. I've done crazy stuff that "isn't allowed" and got away with it, to my eternal astonishment...)

I'll be the first to admit, Japanese tools are not for everyone. But on the point of them being intended *only* for softwoods, regrettably, that is a lie that's taken hold and is difficult to shake.

I'm trying my best to correct it, and have the back up of some of the biggest and best tool makers in Japan to try and erase the error but it's still an uphill battle.  

(And I got none of this out of a book either. From the mouths of the folks who make the tools seems to be a little more reliable.)


katellwood; Koyama, Iyoroi, Koyamaichi (dragon chisels, with ebony handles! Mr. Koyama will be interrogated on that score...) are the brands I can see, although it's difficult with some being out of focus a little. The ones up back look to be 'tataki-nomi' which means they're made to be hit, all day, with a big hammer. 

On Japanese planes, what do you want to know? 

Stu.


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## woodbloke (20 Mar 2011)

Stu, welcome to the forum...*please* stick around as your knowledge in this area is invaluable. Thanks also for your insight into a commonly held fallacy ref hard woods and Japanese blades. A voice of reason...praise be =D> =D> - Rob


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## Alf (20 Mar 2011)

Schtoo":31hxs0zm said:


> I'll be the first to admit, Japanese tools are not for everyone. But on the point of them being intended *only* for softwoods, regrettably, that is a lie that's taken hold and is difficult to shake.
> 
> I'm trying my best to correct it, and have the back up of some of the biggest and best tool makers in Japan to try and erase the error but it's still an uphill battle.


You are making progress, Stu, really you are. Keep plugging away. And welcome aboard.


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## Jacob (20 Mar 2011)

Does it make any difference to the woodwork, which chisels you use? Can you tell by looking (other than with a microscope)?
I suspect not, in which case just buy the cheapest!


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## János (20 Mar 2011)

Hello,

Dear Stu, so are you selling these tools? So you have had financial interest in their market success. Perhaps that simple fact might drop some shadows on your objectivity. But nobody said here that historically Japanese tools were developed only for softwoods. What have been told: they were developed to use in softwoods. And that is a historical fact.

Any woodworking tool can be tuned or adjusted to suit a purpose or use better. And Japanese toolmakers of our age do exactly the same: they temper the blades to a little lower hardness, recommed a larger than usual bevel angle, and so on. In that way, their tools are better suited for Occidental users and hardwoods. And their marketing guys do a very good job in disseminating myths about their products. They do more harm than good, as the lore they disseminate bars the dispersion of proper and true knowledge, and rises expectations no tool can fulfill. And that is dishonest. 

Best wishes,

János


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## Schtoo (20 Mar 2011)

Jacob":22ri0eb3 said:


> Does it make any difference to the woodwork, which chisels you use? Can you tell by looking (other than with a microscope)?
> I suspect not, in which case just buy the cheapest!



That's true, the wood doesn't care.

But use a good Japanese chisel (and I mean, spending over 40 quid on the thing), and you will never look at another chisel the same way again. 



Having actually made a living 'on the tools', I know when a chunk of metal is letting you earn a paycheck, the cheapest VERY rapidly becomes expensive in time, money and frustration. Granted, many who are reading this are not in that position, but having something better than common cheapo garbage is rather nice at times. 

But if you can't appreciate that, I'm afraid there's not much hope and anything I say will fall on deaf ears. 

Sorry.


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## Schtoo (20 Mar 2011)

János":b4m6rpd7 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Dear Stu, so are you selling these tools? So you have had financial interest in their market success. Perhaps that simple fact might drop some shadows on your objectivity. But nobody said here that historically Japanese tools were developed only for softwoods. What have been told: they were developed to use in softwoods. And that is a historical fact.
> 
> ...



Yes, I sell the tools. 

But lets go back a little, shall we?




> János
> Post subject: Re: japanese chisel problem- tool or user?
> PostPosted: Mar 17, 2011 8:07pm
> Offline
> ...




Nobody, not even yourself, suggested these chisels were for working in softwoods, not hardwoods? 

Really?

To claim that as true, you'd have to call yourself, I don't know, dishonest? That'd be nice if you'd do that, and would save me the trouble of doing it myself.


On the 'myth and lore' espoused by many existing sellers of Japanese tools, I don't play that game. Sorry to disappoint. If you're willing to call my objectivity into question, I'd strongly suggest you'd look in the mirror first. 

Have a nice day won't you. 

Stu.


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## Harbo (20 Mar 2011)

Hi Stu - welcome to the Forum - it seems that you are bashing your head against a brickwall with certain people?

I have always been open minded when buying tools - I read about them on reviews and other peoples experiences and if possible try them out. I cannot say that I have read much advertising re. Japanese tools, so wonder who all these mythical Marketing characters are?

I am afraid with Jacob (Mr Grimsdale or whatever other name he adopts) you are "against" somebody who always disparages anything other than cheap and cheerful?

I have a wide variety of chisels:- Western (old and new) and some Japanese (supposedly New Old Stock bought on Ebay and a set of Blue Steel Matsumura ones that came out tops in a FWW Review).
I do most of my work in English Hardwoods and apart from some crappy Stanleys, I have never had any problems with any of them!

I also have a Japanese smoothing plane which works amazingly well on hardwoods too!

To imply that Stu is being dishonest in his views because he has a commercial interest is an unfounded accusation. Any salesperson who sells rubbish will have a very short time span especially in todays market. And any Tool seller worth his/hers salt is going to research the products they sell especially if they want to make a living out it? 
I do not understand where you are coming from Janos - have you any commercial interests in Western Tools?

Rod


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## János (20 Mar 2011)

Hello,

There is no merit in taking up dialogue with somebody, who intentionally and purposefully misinterprets what has been said.

The members are intelligent enough to decide for themselves the meaning of what I have said. And I have said that with two decades of cabinetmaking behind my back, and based my opinion on personal experience, and referenced it to written and documented scientific facts about the development of Japanese woodcraft. Thousands of pages were written about the history of Japan and its crafts, especially joinery and woodcraft, so the way is open even to you to hone your knowledge and attitude.

Have a nice day,

János

And to Rod,

No I have no commercial interest in Occidental handtools (how have you got that impression?), and never said, that the Japanese tools are inferior to the Occidental ones… But I am fed up with that stupid and dishonest marketing we are subjected to. And perhaps Stu himself is one of those mythical marketing characters…

Have a nice day,

János


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## Schtoo (20 Mar 2011)

A dirty little secret is my curse of having a soft spot for NOS Marples Blue Chips...

Love the silly things, I don't know why. 

(But I am thankful I'm not wallowing in their glory. I like them, but they aren't the best I have by a long, long way.)

Stu.

Janos, 

I don't think I've mis-interpreted anything at all. I am quite sure that you've peddled out a long standing myth about Japanese tools, have been called out on it by at least a half dozen people here before I came along as being blatantly false, and yet still cling to your convictions, whereas most sensible people I've met, even the stubborn ones (and some of them stubborn ones make Japanese tools) would admit that maybe they need to look again at what they believe to be true.

You've avoided doing that, for whatever reason. You've stuck to your guns, and as admirable as that might be, it still doesn't change the simple, undeniable fact that you said, straight up "these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods". Do I need to quote you again to point this out? Too late, I already did.

And I'll quote you again...



> There is no merit in taking up dialogue with somebody, who intentionally and purposefully misinterprets what has been said.
> 
> The members are intelligent enough to decide for themselves the meaning of what I have said.



You put it perfectly, thank you very much. 

Stu.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (20 Mar 2011)

In the interests of self-disclosure ..

Stu is a mate of mine (and will continue to remain so).

I have received advice from him in the past (and will continue to seek it).

I have purchased tools from him (and intend to do so again in the future).

However I stated _before_ Stu visited this forum (Welcome Stu! ccasion5: ) and, in particular, this thread ...

I bought my Japanese chisels_ expressly _with hardwoods in mind. They take and hold an edge that is only rivaled only by the supersteel chisels I am testing out. 

My Koyamaichi dovetails chisels are thrashed - because that is sometimes what it takes to chop joints in hard Jarrah and Karri. They have never chipped an edge. 

Review here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... isels.html

They are excellent value-for-money, costing about the same as a LN. I could have instead purchased LNs. I preferred to get the Koyamaichi. Surely that says something.

They are not the only Japanese chisels I own. I have been using mainly Iyoroi for about 15 years. My latest set are parers (slicks) that arrived recently ... after a wait of 3 years. I sold off a prized collection of Bergs (among other tools) to afford them. They are worth it. Are they ever!

Behold the Kiyohisa slicks ...












Oh, and they work well on hardwood as well ... just thought you'd want to know ... 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodbloke (20 Mar 2011)

Schtoo":2pisbvbc said:


> Janos,
> 
> I don't think I've mis-interpreted anything at all. I am quite sure that you've peddled out a long standing myth about Japanese tools, have been called out on it by at least a half dozen people here before I came along as being blatantly false, and yet still cling to your convictions, whereas most sensible people I've met, even the stubborn ones (and some of them stubborn ones make Japanese tools) would admit that maybe they need to look again at what they believe to be true.
> 
> ...



Mr J, might be time for you to fall on your sword :lol: :lol: (assuming of course, it's made from the right steel :-" ) - Rob


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