# Is it worth buying mortise chisels or not?



## BrianD (30 Jun 2006)

Hi all,

I am considering buying a couple of mortise chisels.

There are two issues here:

What are the recommendations for morise chisels. I am looking at Two Cherries, Ashley Iiles, and so on. Any recs?

Also, I am also considering to get a bench morticer as I am going to make several chairs and need to generate a lot of mortice joints.

So is it worth buying morice chisels (I have a set of bevelled chisels as is) considering I do plan to but bench morticer? :?

Some guidance from the experts would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Alf (30 Jun 2006)

BrianD":1ctv0ugg said:


> Hi all,


Hey up, Brian



BrianD":1ctv0ugg said:


> I am considering buying a couple of mortise chisels.


Considering chopping a few mortises eh? Excellent.



BrianD":1ctv0ugg said:


> There are two issues here:


Only two? Don't believe it... :wink:



BrianD":1ctv0ugg said:


> What are the recommendations for morise chisels. I am looking at Two Cherries, Ashley Iiles, and so on. Any recs?


For my money, secondhand Oval Bolstered, aka "Pigstickers". Like these:









BrianD":1ctv0ugg said:


> So is it worth buying morice chisels (I have a set of bevelled chisels as is) considering I do plan to but bench morticer? :?


Depends how hand toolish you're feeling. For 95% of folks I'd say in all probability "no". 

Cheers, Alf


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## MarcW (30 Jun 2006)

Hi Brian,

If you have alot to mortice :lol: , then you better have some specialty chisels. You'll go on faster. Normally I used my beveled japanese chisels. For a certain mortice I repeated twenty times, I got some boxwood Robert Sorby mortice chisels. Instead of seven layers I made only three after. So this speeded really things up and I consider adding some more to my two (that isn't a collection yet :wink: ) It may be that it is easier to use a mortice chisel than a beveled one, because of its thickness. The sides lead the cut. 

Buy one and you'll see how well it performs. Not much money spent and you find out for yourself. 

I can't speak of a bench mortiser, I never saw one and wouldn't consider buying one :lol:

Regards, Marc


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## Shady (30 Jun 2006)

Brian, welcome: It also depends on your 'skill vs patience' rating... If you just want to get the chairs made, and are not terribly hand tool familiar, then I'd say, buy the bench mortiser, get familiar with it, and churn the joints out.

If, however, you have some familiarity with hand tools, and want to gain more, then try some mortise chisels. Good ones - and that means any of the brands you mention, or oval bolstered 'Alf hammers', are a revelation when it comes to the ease and speed of hand cutting - but they do require a certain degree of confidence/familiarity with hand tools to get the best from. 

There's not much that's more satisfying in woodworking than smacking a razor sharp chisel with a mallet, and seeing it cut chunks out of the stock like the proverbial knife through butter. No machine noise, very little dust, and the pleasure of seeing your muscle power making the joint. Bevelled chisels will cut a mortise, but can't take the sort of battering and prying that makes the job a hell of a lot quicker - and, bizarrely, more accurate...


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## CONGER (1 Jul 2006)

Greetings WWW-WWers, and BrianD...

I had never used mortise chisels, but for one particular 'job' last Autumn, I bought a 'Two Cherries'(!) Mortise chisel Series 1306 from one of our two excellent suppliers here in Germany.

There is a picture of the chisel here... http://www.fine-tools.com/kirsch10.jpg

The chisel is beautifully put together. It is MASSIVE, and definitely not for the weak-of-limb. You can see a very useful size comparison here... http://www.fine-tools.com/G10018.htm

The chisel blade did require quite some post-purchase tuning (out of dimension); I did raise this with the dealer, who was mortified(!), and did offer an immediate replacement (excellent dealer - I turned him down, as I had already 'fixed' the chisel). I raised the quality issue with the (quality german) manufacturer; after a LOT of tedious explaining and waiting, they finally took my matter seriously; they apologised, and sent me a (cute, but useless) letter opener in the form of one of their chisels, to compensate. I have since groind a bevel at the end of the letter-opener, and it now serves as a cute little paring chisel, and as a monument to manufacturer arrogance.

The chisel did take a good edge (Tormek and scary-sharp), and when I used it, I was amazed at what I had been missing when cutting mortises up to then. The 'registration' is phenomenal, and it really does whiz through the wood (see Shady's posting), and makes a fine mortise.

Conclusion... yes... if you are a 'hand-tooler', then get mortise chisels. Buy the best you can afford (you only regret it once)... buy from a reputable dealer (see my experience). Yes, I would buy the same chisel again, though there is a lot of buzz about the Lie-Nielsen chisels.

Two more tips... only buy the mortise chisels you need, and that is typically three or less... forget 'sets', they end up being dust collectors; forget trying to cut mortises (or most other joints for that matter) in bad wood.

Work safe -g- -- who has now written his maiden posting here.


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## DaveL (1 Jul 2006)

Hi CONGER,

Welcome to the forum.


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## Chris Knight (1 Jul 2006)

Conger,
Welcome to the forum - we have quite a few Irish here although most seem still to be at home.


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## Alf (1 Jul 2006)

Welcome, Conger 



CONGER":1zdrm7i7 said:


> I have since groind a bevel at the end of the letter-opener, and it now serves as a cute little paring chisel, and as a monument to manufacturer arrogance.


Love it :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Newbie_Neil (1 Jul 2006)

Conger

Welcome to UKW.

Cheers
Neil


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## BrianD (1 Jul 2006)

To all that replied, thanks for the inputs.

Seems to me that i should take the conservative approach and buy a minimum set of mortice chisels, ie just what I need for the current job, and build on top of that if necessary (as I go). 

Cheers.


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## Anonymous (1 Jul 2006)

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## Midnight (2 Jul 2006)

> PPPS and Lie-Nielsen no good either. Not deep enough, have a neck/shoulder (makes them weak) and are parallel sided. Sides should be slightly tapered from the face otherwise they will stick if you bang them in hard.



utter horsefeathers....!!

if mine are anything to go by, the L-N's work like a charm.. dmack em as hard as ya want, they'll take it, and as for weak... they took my +80kg's with contemptious ease...


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## Mirboo (2 Jul 2006)

I'm glad to hear that Midnight. I recently bought the set of 5 Lie-Nielsen mortice chisels but I haven't had a chance to use them yet.


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## MikeW (2 Jul 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":nd5pat8b said:


> Interesting - Alf's snap shows yer genuine mortice chisels unlike the Deiter Schmit offerings which look decidedly flimsy. Nobody seems to make real ones nowadays. I think tool makers just lose the knowledge and perhaps don't realise that a mortice chisel is intended to be bashed as fast as possible as hard as poss with the biggest mallet you can handle. ...


Mr. G--the Ray Iles mortice chisels are well done.

LINK






As well, Barr will make anything you want--with better--at least as good as the best--steel that ever was.

Take care, Mike

PS--the LN will take a beatin'


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## Waka (2 Jul 2006)

Mr Grimsdale":11hop79c said:


> PPPS and Lie-Nielsen no good either. Not deep enough, have a neck/shoulder (makes them weak) and are parallel sided. Sides should be slightly tapered from the face otherwise they will stick if you bang them in hard.



Such a bold sweeping statement about the LN mortise chisels, mine are fine and haven't suffered from a good haerd swipe with the mallet.


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## Anonymous (2 Jul 2006)

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## Shady (2 Jul 2006)

Hmm - I hadn't noticed that the L-N's were parallel sided before: that does seem to be against the received wisdom on these weapons. I still think you might be being a little over-dismissive however, Jacob: most who use them seem to like 'em.


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## CONGER (2 Jul 2006)

Glad to see the comments from Midnight, Mirboo, MikeW, Waka, and Shady... I had rather classified the statements from Mr_Grimsdale as being poppycock myself.

I have had the LN offerings in my hand... and used them. Except for the price (short at that time), I thought they were excellent, and they certainly did not leave the impression of being 'no good either'. They certainly took a beating, and left an impression of being very robust and certainly not being under-dimensioned.

Now saying 'Deiter Schmit offerings which look decidedly flimsy' (actually 'Schmid') is decidedly not the true, at least in the case of the 'Two Cherries'(!) mortice chisels. I have never seen a new or old chisel (except timber framing slicks I saw in Finland) with such a large, and well constructed grip. The LN chisels are decidedly small and 'flimsy' when compared. This chisel did not react negatively to being whacked repeatedly into oak with a 1kg mallet; I had similar experiences with the LN chisels on trial.

As I suggested in my last posting, the finish of the blade on MY 2C chisel was miserable; I suspect that the LN product is better, and perhaps the steel used.

I can not speak at first hand about the rest (Barr, Isles etc.), and I can not offer any comparative details for the antique lobby. I suspect that Alfs oldies are superb, though I would have my doubts on how good the steel is when compared to the LN steel.

-gerard-


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## Anonymous (2 Jul 2006)

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## Mirboo (2 Jul 2006)

The spiel about the Lie-Nielsen mortice chisels on their website states that they are "designed with cabinetmaking in mind, not timber framing...." 

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=mc_set

Mr. Grimsdale, are you comparing them to framing mortice chisels and that is why you think they look flimsy? 

Perhaps we need to be more specific about the type of mortice chisel we are talking about when we make statements about their relative robustness?


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## Anonymous (2 Jul 2006)

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## Midnight (2 Jul 2006)

> But I always feel deeply sceptical when you get that so uncritical admiration for LN and other names



I'd suggest that the next time you feel like trying to trash a company's reputation, you should at the very least do some homework first.. or better yet, invest some hands on time with some of their products.. 

Lie Nielsen have earned a reputation that's second to none for quality of product and customer servise... they've earned that reputation the hard way and strive to maintain it whatever the cost...


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## deirdre (2 Jul 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3fsn32mg said:


> Yes OK sweeping statement. Nowt wrong with that! But I always feel deeply sceptical when you get that so uncritical admiration for LN and other names - in most aspects of life too, not only woodwork.
> [...]
> I am unlikely ever to have a L&N tool experience as they are much too expensive (unless someone gives me one - I'd give it an objective and unbiased bashing I promise!)



If you ever really used an LN, you'd probably find, as I did, that the other tools in the shop were lacking. Personally, I'm replacing all my older tools with LN where LN makes a replacement version.


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## Jake (2 Jul 2006)

Devotees indeed.

I think you are being unfair here in the extreme. The criticism is of the type of tool being produced, not of the quality of the tool that has been produced to the chosen design, measured against the criteria of that chosen design. TLN does not have a monopoly of opinion on what kind of mortice chisel is the best, and plenty of people seem to agree that pig-stickers are the better pattern.


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## Tony Spear (3 Jul 2006)

I,ve got a couple of Sorby traditional mortice chisels like Alf's and I love 'em.

I cut my mortices mainly on the Rat which obviously leaves rounded ends, but then put a well sharpened chisel in the right place, give it a good bash or two and lo and behold neat square ended mortices!


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## Mittlefehldt (3 Jul 2006)

BrianD":1qhe92vk said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am considering buying a couple of mortise chisels.
> 
> ...



To get back to the original question, I would ask how many mortises,do you plan to do, and once this project is done will you be doing more in the future?

If you plan on doing a lot of them maybe the bench mortising machine thingy is what you want, particularly if you have little hand tool experience. PErsonally I think they are a lot of money to gather dust in your shop if you are not doing this all the time. I personally have three Hirsch chisels which look suspicsiously like the two cherries and I would not hesitate to reccomend those.

I am almost done a project that required 42 half inch X 2.5 inch X 2 inch deep mortises, I had done some mortising prior to this with another chisel which was okay but not great. With the Hirsch chisels the first one I did took, and don`t laugh Alf, 35 minutes. The last six took less than an hour, I got faster as I went and those massive chisels really eat the wood.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (3 Jul 2006)

I have a widish selection of mortice chisels but will speak of my experience with two types, since these reflect opposite ends of the spectrum.

For some years I used Japanese mortice chisels. These cut well but, as I discovered, were not really suited to hardwood since they were small and required more energy to hammer in spite of holding a good edge.







These days I use the Japanese mortice chisels to straighten the end of mortices made on a router (yes, I do that type as well  ).

The ones I currently use are the Oval Bostered Mortice type. I have bought unhandled ones quite cheaply on eBay and enjoyed re-handling them myself. Here are some (mostly Sorby, Ward, etc)






The noticeable difference is their greater heft and length. They do a much better job on hardwoods and, in addition, are easier to keep straight. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Anonymous (3 Jul 2006)

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## Anonymous (3 Jul 2006)

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## deirdre (3 Jul 2006)

Jake -- actually, I like pigstickers for mortise chisels, I just thought the one poster was being unfair.


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## Alf (3 Jul 2006)

Coo, leave you lot unsupervised for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose...

I'd love to know if anyone out there has used OBMs and subsequently preferred the other varieties. Without stirring you up too much, for preference... :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## BrianD (3 Jul 2006)

Wow, the passion flows! :roll: 

And here I was, just asking a simple question - well so I thought :shock: 

:lol: 

It's just a chisel or two after all - OK I'll duck about now! (hammer)


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## Anonymous (4 Jul 2006)

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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (4 Jul 2006)

> I'd love to know if anyone out there has used OBMs and subsequently preferred the other varieties. Without stirring you up too much, for preference... :wink:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Well, I did get a vintage Stanley "tool" (circa 1950) after the OBMC, which "some" might use for morticing, but not I ... I think I'll stick with the chisels ..






Regards from Perth

Derek :lol: :lol:


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## Philly (4 Jul 2006)

Hah, nice one Derek :lol: 
Been watching this thread with interest (I find the toolteam burnouts on other forums quite ghastly :evil: ).
I haven't used pigstickers, only Japanese mortise and the Lie-Nielsen mortise chisels. For the record I find the Japanese type to be excellent, with none of the chipping problems you can get with the bevel edge chisels. And the L-N mortise chisels are great, beautifully made and work like a dream. I find that the "pigstickers with really wide blades guide better" story is a bit untrue-most mortise chisels are the same wide for the first inch or so. And thats the most that you would use it in a cabinetmaking scenario! Now, if I was building a timber framed house........
But to get back to the ORIGINAL question-if you are going to cut a few mortises then there are plenty of good benchtop models available that are a similar cost to a set of mortise chisels. In the real world a benchtop model is going to be a lot more use UNLESS you want to be a "I work only with hand tools" person. :lol: Spend ten minutes cutting one by hand then ten minutes cutting the other 20 on the benchtop model and see which is relevent for your working methods or how much spare time you have.
Hope this is of use,
Philly


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## Jake (4 Jul 2006)

Philly":39yntw1x said:


> there are plenty of good benchtop models available that are a similar cost to a set of mortise chisels.



My set of six pig-stickers cost me £20. As a non-neander, I wish I could find a bench morticer for that!


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## Philly (4 Jul 2006)

Ha! Nice one Jake. Had my eyes open for a long time for a set but they seem to of dried up in Dorset :lol: 
a £100 will buy you an entry level one and £150 a very good one.
Cheers
Philly


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