# New Japanese Chisel....Bargain?



## jimi43 (20 Mar 2010)

I was floating around fleaBay the other day and spied this Japanese paring chisel for sale...







It arrived today....and it is something I wanted to have (one from Japan) just to try it but I didn't realise how beautiful these things were...






The back is absolutely flat...with just the residue of signature concave grinding seen in Japanese chisels..






I have just opened the parcel and photographed it to gauge opinion so need to scary sharpen it...and then try it out...






It seems in really nice nick...not sure I like the total gloss on the handle...might remove that and satinize (?)  it....






But the wood looks interesting...anyone know what it is?

The branding is in Japanese and difficult to photograph...black on black but I tried...






Cost me £18 plus postage which is a huge amount for me for one blinkin' chisel but I fell in love with it and had to have one...

Did I buy a pig or a prince?

Cheers guys and gals!

Jim


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## frugal (20 Mar 2010)

Oh, sorry was there a chisel involved somewhere, I was too busy staring at that gorgeous lump of wood :lol:


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## head clansman (20 Mar 2010)

hi jim 

that will keep you out of trouble for a while , nice chisel buy the way . hc


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## jimi43 (20 Mar 2010)

frugal":3ouhfjqa said:


> Oh, sorry was there a chisel involved somewhere, I was too busy staring at that gorgeous lump of wood :lol:



Some burr elm I also found on fleaBay and it did WOW for me...

Another 18 squids...not sure what I am going to do with it but it has so far served me well as a "woody" photo support....


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## jimi43 (20 Mar 2010)

head clansman":1g7lgs2u said:


> hi jim
> 
> that will keep you out of trouble for a while , nice chisel buy the way . hc



It makes me want to fondle and stroke it, it is SO tactile....

I am sick...I know...but AM I ALONE!!!?

I haven't cut myself yet...will sharpen it then stop fondling it...well near the bevel anyway!

  

Jim


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## Karl (20 Mar 2010)

Nice chisel, and a good price. I've got quite a few Jap chisels and think they're superb.

The handle is red oak (at least that is what mine are, and it looks the same as mine).

Cheers

Karl


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## woodbloke (20 Mar 2010)

Looks like a nice chisel Jim and has obviously seen some use as the scallops on the back have disappeared. Handles on these things are usually Jap Red Oak - Rob


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## jimi43 (20 Mar 2010)

Cheers Karl....Rob....

It's comforting to know that I didn't impulse buy and waste my dosh!

I have yet to sharpen it to my liking...was playing too much with it...

Paring chisel...does it par?

Yup






I suppose that's "par" for the course!! :roll: 

Since I had dragged the old Nik 105 micro out of the cupboard...I thought I would see if I could still do "manual" and get a decent shot of that illusive Japanese writing....here ya go....






I swear those old optics...30 years old...are better than the new ones!

Anyone speak Japanese here?

Jim


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## Modernist (20 Mar 2010)

Looks very nice with a good shape to the hard steel. I can't help being a little concerned about the heavy flattening of the back. It could be that it was to make it flat. Mine bent like banana's after a while (couple of years amazingly). The edges look a mite thick for delicate work but not a problem for paring. Think about your honing angles. I would stick to a single bevel to give the maximum support to the edge which will be much more brittle than carbon steel. It might be an idea to start at 30 deg and save anything shallower until you have proved it. Edge sharpness should be a revelation.

Happy paring


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## studders (20 Mar 2010)

jimi43":377xr0de said:


> Anyone speak Japanese here?
> 
> Jim



I think that's Japanese for Dakota.


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## WoodAddict (20 Mar 2010)

studders":10pyiyda said:


> jimi43":10pyiyda said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone speak Japanese here?
> ...



I speak fluent Japanese. It says - "For display purposes only!"

Hope this helps


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## jimi43 (20 Mar 2010)

studders":2kicm6rg said:


> jimi43":2kicm6rg said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone speak Japanese here?
> ...



That would be in the Rutlands...high up on the sides of Mount Fungi?  

M....it has a very fine 30deg second bevel. The main bevel looks to be a tad under 25deg. 

I just sharpened it...boy...this steel is weird! It hones like a razor...and it actually FEELS brittle....

I just want it for paring....the curls are now almost microns thick and that is freehand...not even with the stock in a vise. I really MUST stop doing that if I don't want a serious injury.

The seller mentioned the flattening of the back....not a common practice I am understanding with these chisels where the back...other than just behind the bevel, is left concave.

As for display...I can quite easily see how people would want to do just that. This akagashi is a very beautiful wood indeed....very beautiful.

I am going to strip off the poly-like finish...the only thing I don't like...I want to rub some Tru Oil on it...

Thanks for the tips guys...I think I will go play with this in the workshop tomorrow. I feel a slope coming on. I would dearly love to find out who made it.

Jim


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## wizer (20 Mar 2010)

Very nice Jimi. Money no object, I'd go for a set of these:






 But it is an object, so I'm going to stick with Ai's which are still not cheap but sensibly priced.


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## Eric The Viking (20 Mar 2010)

jimi43":q57oaaxd said:


> I swear those old optics...30 years old...are better than the new ones!



I'd say so. I do portrait stuff on my Canon 30D using a Pentax M f1.4.

It's a bit of a fiddle to get it set up. On it's first outing I realised I need better glasses (for focus!), but the quality knocks my Sigma lenses into a cocked hat.

Likewise with my Pentax f4 macro lens, used with the Canon on bellows.


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## WoodAddict (20 Mar 2010)

8)  Good answer.

It is a nice looking tool. :wink:


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## jimi43 (20 Mar 2010)

Yeh Tom...I saw the price of those things when I was doing some research today...lovely aren't they. And a nice price too. I must admit, part of the fun is getting nice things quite cheaply...that is a buzz!

Eric...that was why I chose the D80 because all my old 30 year old lenses fitted (all be it manually of course) and since I spent a fortune on those back in 1980 (far more than the F2 and F3), then I thought I would try them out....astounding! 

Jim


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## jimi43 (21 Mar 2010)

I belong to this wonderful website (other than this one) and I posted a picture of the brand to see if I could find out more....I received this reply...





> since kanji is basically chinese, i'll take a stab...
> 
> as xxxxx mentioned, the first two words mean "five hundred", but i suspect the last word is a roughly scribbled "蔵"
> 
> ...



Further research indicates that a pretty good candidate is a 12mm Nishiki Kinari...or extra thin paring chisel:

HERE

although I am now entering the mystical world of the Samurai so I may be WAY off!  

Jim


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## yetloh (21 Mar 2010)

I have a lot of Japanese chisels and they are indeed a revelation. I sharpen them all at 30 deg.

I am surprised that you have had it suggested convex backs are the norm. Backs should be dead flat and I would suggest that your chisel was faulty and the first owner spent a lot of time putting it right; hence the disappearance of much of the flutes. This does not matter now the work has been done. The fact that it has multiple flutes suggests that it is from Iyoroi's premium range. I bought a set of Iyoroi's premium bench chisels (nomi) - multi flutes and boxwood handles - from Dick in Germany - and they needed a similar amount of work to flatten. On close inspection it was apparent that the handle end of the chisel had been lifted while the back was being ground during the manufacturing process so that the edge was rounded over; hence the need to remove a lot of steel to achieve flatness up to the edge. After flattening and sharpening one of them I sent them back to Dick as faulty, who replaced them without any problems. The replacement were fine.

The only problem with good Japanese chisels is that they are addictive. Once you have one and have experienced the edge achievable you will want more and be dissatisfied with European chisels. The next step along this path is Japanese laminated plane irons which are just as good as the chisels. I have one in my fettled Stanley 60 ½ block plane and it makes it a brilliant tool. I much prefer it to the LN equivalent which I eventually sold and bought a Veritas NX60 – another great tool, if a bit pricey. The DX60 is cheaper and just as good even if it doesn’t look quite as flash.

Jim


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## Harbo (21 Mar 2010)

All the Japanese chisels I have seen never have the grinding taken back into the neck like that and the hollow scallops should extend nearly to the tip?
There should only be a few mm's of flat at the tip and the sides?

Rod


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## woodbloke (21 Mar 2010)

yetloh":z2qqo72b said:


> The only problem with good Japanese chisels is that they are addictive. Once you have one and have experienced the edge achievable you will want more and be dissatisfied with European chisels.
> 
> Jim


They will take a decent edge, true. By far the biggest beef I have with them though is that they're just so bloody uncomfortable to use for hand work as they've got a damn great lump of iron at the end of the handle. Great for belting with a Jap hammer, but useless for anything else (not counting of course the ones with elongated handles)
If you like having a big red weal in the palm of your hand after a bit of horizontal paring or having the hoop dig into your thumb after some vertical paring...then more power to your elbow :lol: 
Keep all your Jap chisels...I'll stick to my nice comfy LN's any day :wink: (and I have owned two sets of the things and flogged them) - Rob


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## Modernist (21 Mar 2010)

woodbloke":2wcezt1t said:


> yetloh":2wcezt1t said:
> 
> 
> > The only problem with good Japanese chisels is that they are addictive. Once you have one and have experienced the edge achievable you will want more and be dissatisfied with European chisels.
> ...



Seconded, not to mention brittle edges, but I have settled on AI.


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## jimi43 (22 Mar 2010)

Thanks for the feedback guys...I will let you know my opinion after a few jobs.

As you can see, this one is sans the hoop so that is not an issue and is long handled for pressure cutting with the body (so I am told).

I guess that we all have to take journeys and decide if we like where we get to when we get there. I keep an open mind all the way because the woody things that I do usually differ from most traditional joinery work...furniture and the like.

So far..I am still cuddling it!  

Jim (yetloh) - I think I mentioned concave backs...the scalloping...and I was previously thinking that most had scallops all the way to the tip with just a flat hardened section. 

I'm not sure if the previous owner took so much metal off...to totally wipe out most of this...I guess he could have done but the remaining back is quite thick and very very flat. So flat distant reflections are perfect.

I am going to try a few dovetail trims with it....see how it performs.

Cheers all

Jim


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## matthewwh (22 Mar 2010)

Hi Jim,

Nice chisel, especially for that price! 

Iyoroi were the first manufacturer to introduce mass production techniques (die forging) much to the chagrin of the Japanese toolmaking establishment. Yours looks like it is a 'real deal' hand forged example which are still made the old fashioned way by either the master or one of his senior smiths. 

As it turns out the combination of die forging and hand forging was the way to go and many of the successful manufacturers including Mr Fujikawa who supplies us, now offer both. 

The back has been over flattened but it won't make a lick of difference to the performance of the tool, it's all too easy to end up in this situation if you don't know how to treat a bump in the back of a tool. 

I have a lovely broad early 1970's Iyoroi paring chisel with an osage orange handle, which I treasure, and a couple of narrower hand forged ones by Mr Fujikawa. They tend to come out for extra special 'this one's got to be absolutely bang on the money' type cuts. I don't know why but I find it easier to tune out all distracting thoughts and get right into the zone whilst using them.

Not to everyone's taste (could someone pass Jacob a bucket please - he looks a bit pale) and for the life of me I can't get into the same emotional place when chopping, planing...no problem, sawing...yep, paring...every time, but it seems chopping will always just be chopping. 

Enjoy!


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## yetloh (22 Mar 2010)

woodbloke":1dwjdojr said:


> yetloh":1dwjdojr said:
> 
> 
> > The only problem with good Japanese chisels is that they are addictive. Once you have one and have experienced the edge achievable you will want more and be dissatisfied with European chisels.
> ...



Japanese bench chisels are designed to be used with a hammer; of course they are uncomfortable if used for lengthy periods of paring - that's what paring chisels are for, and they are just as good for that as the bench chisels are for what they were deigned for. 

The only occasional problems I have had with brittleness have been with brand new chisels where the very thin area of metal at the extreme tip has been overhardened - a problem cured by regrinding. Perhaps they won't stand up tp quite the level of abuse that can be inflicted on LNs but in my view that extra fine edge is well worth a little extra care.

I certainly will keep my Japanese chisels and you are welcome to your LNs; it wouldn't do if we all liked the same things.

Jim

Jim


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## jimi43 (22 Mar 2010)

Thanks Matt...actually you describe perfectly what I was feeling tuning and playing with this little baby today. I hadn't had much time with it since work took over but today I finished early and just sat reading some emails and running it over some bandsaw marks on my drying home-grown cherry.

It virtually polished them out...slid across effortlessly and it felt very um...thereputic...if that were possible.

I have a couple...very few...tools like this which just seem to FEEL right...

I think this would be a keeper.

Jim...it seems we have a certain amount of polarisation of views WRT Japanese chisels in general.

I wonder why this is? Perhaps it is, as I previously said, the application and the common use each of us puts to our hand tools.

Woodworking encompasses a very wide spectrum of specialities from the jobbing carpenter to the fine art of carving and I believe that some believe that accolades placed on certain tools by some will translate into their specific field of whittling. I think that maybe this is where disappointment occurs.

Sometimes though...the same job is accomplished using two or more very different types of tools....with satisfaction being gained from what performs best for the individual...

It would be a sad world if we all liked the same things though wouldn't it?

Thanks for the further feedback guys...I think I fall into the "I love these things" camp! Maybe I just got a good 'un!

Jim


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## yetloh (23 Mar 2010)

Jim, 

Yes, I completely agree with you. It's like wooden planes and metal planes or even infills and non-infills. They are all capable of doing a great job if they are of the right quality but they suit different types of work and styles of working. And thank goodness for that, not least because it keeps a wide range of specialist makers and suppliers in business.

Jim


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## David C (23 Mar 2010)

It is unmistakably Iyoroi.

Both Craftsman's Choice and Axminster sold these chisels. They were relatively reasonably priced in the scheme of Japanese chisels, and I would be very surprised if it were hand forged.

Excellent chisels, I still use mine.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## promhandicam (23 Mar 2010)

For those who don't intend hitting a japanese chisel with a japanese (steel) mallet and whose hands aren't up to using a chisel with a hoop just cut the hoop off and round the end over! OK, it might not be the 'done thing' but who cares - it is just a tool! Personally the hoops don't bother me but seemingly some people are averse to them.

Steve


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## wizer (23 Mar 2010)

I really like the hoops. Maybe I'm loopy ? :roll:


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## katellwood (23 Mar 2010)

Honestly, I haven't got a fetish

















Joking aside they're excellent to use especially the longer temple makers chisels


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## wizer (23 Mar 2010)

_very _nice Chris. Must get around to sorting out my chisels with this type of handle. A kind of East meets West project


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## jimi43 (24 Mar 2010)

Oh MY LORD Chris!!

I have seen the slope....I have the skis on and I forgot my sticks...

Oh MY!

Thankfully I am on the nursery slopes....not the Black Run like you....

Dear oh dear oh dear...they even LOOK mystical...

:shock: :shock: 

Jim


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (24 Mar 2010)

A few more Jim, but nothing as impressive as Chris' ..

These are mainly Iyoroi ... bench chisels at the top, slicks (or parers) in the middle row, and Koyomaichi dovetail chisels at the bottom. 





If you really want to see some amazing Japanese chisels, then go to So Yamashita's site ... http://www.japan-tool.com/

I've been waiting for two years now for a set of Kiyohisa slicks ..











These have thin blades for a delicate touch. Beautiful work by a master craftsman.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodbloke (24 Mar 2010)

yetloh":2vj6t2tr said:


> Japanese bench chisels are designed to be used with a hammer; of course they are uncomfortable if used for lengthy periods of paring - that's what paring chisels are for, and they are just as good for that as the bench chisels are for what they were deigned for.
> 
> The only occasional problems I have had with brittleness have been with brand new chisels where the very thin area of metal at the extreme tip has been overhardened - a problem cured by regrinding. Perhaps they won't stand up tp quite the level of abuse that can be inflicted on LNs but in my view that extra fine edge is well worth a little extra care.
> 
> ...



Jim...my earlier post was done with 'tongue in cheek' in case you hadn't guessed. As I said, they are good and will take and hold decent edge, but the fact that you'd need to double up on the quantities (and thus cost) is also off putting. True, we all like and use different tools, but I reckon a decent Western style chisel (say an AIMKII) will do all that a Jap pair will do...and for half the cost :wink: - Rob


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (24 Mar 2010)

> ...I reckon a decent Western style chisel (say an AIMKII) will do all that a Jap pair will do...and for half the cost



Hi Rob

I reckon it is the other way around - a cheap Japanese chisel will do as well as a decent (expensive) Western chisel, that is, one that costs at least twice as much as the Japanese chisel. 

Japanese chisels really have incredible performance-for-money.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## jimi43 (24 Mar 2010)

We appear to be pretty polarised still on this Western/Eastern issue...and good thing too!

Derek.....second row middle fourth in from both sides...looks like mine.

I think I might do a bit of a road test this afternoon...and I am at the moment trying to select an old but good make Sheffield one to be the other test chisel.

I guess this may not be entirely fair as both would be "used" to a certain extent but it will give me some feedback I can post here.

Jim


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## yetloh (25 Mar 2010)

woodbloke":2lm82wrq said:


> Jim...my earlier post was done with 'tongue in cheek' in case you hadn't guessed. As I said, they are good and will take and hold decent edge, but the fact that you'd need to double up on the quantities (and thus cost) is also off putting. True, we all like and use different tools, but I reckon a decent Western style chisel (say an AIMKII) will do all that a Jap pair will do...and for half the cost :wink: - Rob



Rob,

You may be right but Iyoroi's are not that expensive, as Derek suggests. But I do agree that a lot of this comes down to personal taste and for me there is something very special about a perfectly sharpened japanese chisel - and I do admit to being a mite obsessive about sharpening, but we had better not go down that road!

Jim


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## jimi43 (1 Apr 2010)

Ok so I finally used the little Japanese paring chisel in anger today...rather than whittling strange Aztec objects! :wink: 

I had to finish off the dados for a shelf in a tool cabinet I am making for my planes today:






The dados were cut on the table saw but always leave grooves in the channel that need tidying up so I decided to see how this little baby would perform....






I have to say that I am suitably impressed. The edge I was able to get was astoundingly sharp...in fact the first time I would be scared to touch an edge too hard...it pricked just like a razor!

And as you can see it parred like a hot knife through the proverbial...it just skimmed along creating little angel whisper fine shavings. 

The result was a very smooth flat face to the bottom of the dado and I can see that I will enjoy using this for dovetails on my next project.

Highly recommended.

Jim


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## dannykaye (1 Apr 2010)

have a look at

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12758&s=JapanWoodworker

just the top of the slope 

btw they are meant to have the hollows in the back!


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## jimi43 (1 Apr 2010)

> btw they are meant to have the hollows in the back!



As I was saying at the start of the thread and others have confirmed...the previous owner flattened the back...probably to get out a bend...left a bit of the two hollows but I have it on good authority that this does not matter.

It certainly works better than any of my Sheffield ones...for what I do anyway. I am not sure I want to try the "bash on the top" ones....maybe later.

Jim


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Apr 2010)

Hi Jim

I suspect that the previous owner of this chisel did not understand the construction rationale of a Japanese chisel. I do not think that the back was ground so to flatten it. I suspect that the owner did not want a hollow (perhaps thinking that it might affect registration when paring).

As you know Japanese chisels are laminated from layers of very hard steel and either a softer steel or iron. The back of the blade - where the hollow lies - is the hard steel used for the cutting edge. 

The hollow is deceptively shallow. The reason it is there is, as again I am sure you know, to reduce the amount of very hard steel so as to facilitate easier flattening of the back and honing of the back of the edge. 

As long as there is sufficient hard steel backing to create an edge, the softer backing steel will support this, and all is well. The fact that you can get a sharp edge ... and that this is held! ... is a good sign. All should be well with your chisel. (I have a chisel at home which was flattened like yours, but only more so - a very thin paring chisel - and all the hard steel was removed, leaving nothing to hold an edge).

In the usual life of a Japanese chisel, the back is constantly being honed back, firstly to make the hollow recede and secondly to smooth the rear of the sharp end. The hollow usually lasts the lifetime of the chisel if treated sensibly.

Just be judicious in how you treat the back of this chisel. Only ever use your finishing stone on it to clean up and hone. Avoid anything harsher that may remove more of this steel than necessary. If so done, I am confident yours will be fine for its life.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodsworth (2 Apr 2010)

You wouldn't want to nick the blade to often on one of those bevel backed chisels. End up with it being ground down faster then the back is flattened.


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## yetloh (2 Apr 2010)

Derek, 

There is another possibility which I mentioned in my post on 21st March which is the elimination of rounding close to the edge as a resulting from the chisel being tilted towards the edge when being ground during the production process. I have had this on all of a set of six Iyoroi premium bench planes. The suppliers - Dick - replaced them.

Jim


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Apr 2010)

Hi Jim

What you suggest is a possibility, but less likely wiuth Japanese chisels. I discounted it as I have never come across a Japanese chisel that was treated that way in production. Of course I am not in a position to be an authority here since I do not sell tools, but I take into account several years without such a report on various forums. On the other hand the situation as you describe is very common among new Western chisels, particularly those that have been polished (indeed, it is a result of polishing), such as Two Cherries (which is why one only purchases their unpolished variety if wise). 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## yetloh (2 Apr 2010)

Hi Derek,

Yes, I must admit I was surpised, particularly as it affected the whole set of six.

Jim


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## matthewwh (2 Apr 2010)

I've come across the bump just behind the edge quite frequently on less expensive Japanese chisels. The bump seems to correlate with the beginning of the hollow and I believe it occurs during heat treatment due to the uneven section. The more expensive Japanese chisels must be lapped again after hardening (a much more time consuming process) as it’s rare to find the problem at the top end of the market, although it could happen to a lesser extent if the steel continues to move after the second lapping.

There seems to be a common misconception that convexity in chisel backs is impossible to correct. Admittedly it requires different techniques from rectifying or exploiting concavity. But it doesn’t make a chisel any more difficult to prepare.

A concave blade by definition has two high points which will register against a flat surface and with abrasion the low spots will gradually creep together and form a plane surface. The important thing here is that the two highest spots on the chisel are referencing each other and dictating the plane. By applying pressure from above directly behind the primary bevel you are simply keeping them registered and ensuring that the tip of the chisel is one of them.

With a bump you only have one high point, which will wobble around looking for another one in order to become stable, it will usually find one at either the tip or the heel of the blade. If you are applying thumb pressure at the tip of the blade you will eventually create a plane surface between the tip and the apex of the bump. You will be abrading one side of the bump but also removing material at the tip, so all your hard work just moves the bump back a bit and may even have made it bigger relative to the new line from tip to heel. In short, a bench stone is not the right tool for the job. 

One technique I have used successfully for correcting bumps is to secure the blade upside down and create a flat on the apex of the bump with a diamond file or the back of an old (blunted) chisel or similar with abrasive sheet stuck to it. It’s much the same process as planing a bump out of a piece of timber, the new flat surface gradually expands outwards from the apex and you can vary the pressure to steer it one way or the other.

Another method is to wrap coarse abrasive sheet around a wooden cylinder, secure it horizontally in a vice and then work the back of the blade on it. Take care to protect your fingers from the cutting edge though). Either way, with a single point or patch of contact you are only removing material where necessary, rather than taking one step forward and two back by abrading two points simultaneously.

You may think that you can’t hold a file level enough to create a consistant surface but if the back of the blade is accurately horizontal you will be using exactly the same senses and muscle groups that you use for holding a tray of drinks level, so it takes very little practice to master. Files are almost as neglected as planes used to be in terms of their capabilities as a precision instrument. Indeed engineering apprentices used to be given a file and a lump of metal and told to come back with a perfect cube, just to give them an appreciation for how good their own coordination can be with a simple hand tool.

Once the bump is eradicated you can go back to flat sharpening surfaces, managing a slight concavity that tends towards flat by keeping one end off the sharpening media 50% of the time.


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