# Thieves and burglars



## Graham Orm (3 Jun 2014)

Just repaired some burglary damage for a young couple.

When it happened the wife was in bed as were the 2 kids. The husband was watching TV in the lounge and heard a crash in the kitchen. Assuming something had fallen over he went in, only to be confronted by a thug who had just smashed through the patio door. He punched him and knocked him down (he says) and was then confronted by his 2 mates one of whom had a knife.
He retreated to the hall holding the kitchen door shut and screaming at his wife to get the kids out. He was able to hold the door shut and negotiated through the door to let them have the car keys if they left, which is what they were after. He passed the keys through and they left taking the laptop from the kitchen.
Apparently The practice now is to park the car somewhere quiet and leave it for 48 hours in case it has a tracker on it, then go back to collect it if it hasn't been found. These numpty's parked it obstructing a driveway so it was found almost immediately.

The police told my client that they cruise affluent areas looking for nice cars where there are children living because they know that to protect your children, you will give them anything to get them out of the house. Long gone are the days when you left a light on when going out to keep them at bay, they want you there these days!!


----------



## woodaxed (3 Jun 2014)

Bring back hanging


----------



## Phil Pascoe (3 Jun 2014)

+1


----------



## JustBen (3 Jun 2014)

That's terrible. 
I have a young family and it makes my blood boil thinking about it.
They have no fear, bring back the fear.


----------



## themackay (3 Jun 2014)

There human rights are to important to do anything meaningfull to thugs nowadays


----------



## undergroundhunter (3 Jun 2014)

Thats exactly why there is a baseball bat next to my side of the bed!

Matt


----------



## Phil Pascoe (3 Jun 2014)

I have one, turned from the heaviest piece of oak I've come across. (hammer)


----------



## gregmcateer (3 Jun 2014)

JustBen":2r6wx9tg said:


> That's terrible.
> I have a young family and it makes my blood boil thinking about it.
> They have no fear, bring back the fear.



My blood, too.

Though interestingly, all research shows it's genuinely not the fear of punishment that deters, it's the fear of getting caught. Makes sense if you think about it - no baddy thinks they'll get caught, so the consequences aren't actually relevant. If they think they'll be caught, they tend to change their ways. (Not all of them, of course).


----------



## Graham Orm (3 Jun 2014)

With wife and daughters in the house, I'd give whatever they asked for although I do have a truncheon next to the bed. You like to think that you would 'deal' with them.....lets hope we never have to.


----------



## ColeyS1 (3 Jun 2014)

Couple months ago couple places VERY nearby got burgled. 1000's of pounds worth of stuff got taken. After that I made the 'bam bam' 





Bit of practice with the arbotech was my excuse. When I told my workmate my concern about hitting someone around the head with it and possibly killing them, he came up with a good idea of ' just go for there knees ! ' :lol: thieving scum the lot of em.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


----------



## KevM (3 Jun 2014)

I believe that the law has changed in the favour of the householder in the last few years, but I still favour a large Maglite torch - plausible deniability plus the ability to see who you're tuning up.


----------



## rafezetter (3 Jun 2014)

small hand spray full of something flammable and a lighter - you see them, spray and tell them what it is then light the lighter - chances of them rushing you... small.

At best you'll douse them enough to give them flash burns at most - but scare the **** out of them just the same.

no-one likes to be set on fire.

Failing that - baseball bat with nails (and something nasty and infecting on the nails) - don't care, with children in the house I'd do my best to kill at least one.

You need to be scary enough for them to go someplace else, but with more scary mofo's they meet, they might stop B&E's


----------



## Graham Orm (3 Jun 2014)

rafezetter":3pkk6xad said:


> small hand spray full of something flammable and a lighter - you see them, spray and tell them what it is then light the lighter - chances of them rushing you... small.
> 
> At best you'll douse them enough to give them flash burns at most - but scare the **** out of them just the same.
> 
> ...



That sounds the business. I worked for a cop a while ago, the topic came up and he said if you grab a kitchen knife make sure it isn't from the knife block but a random one so that you can say they brought it with them.


----------



## Mark A (4 Jun 2014)

This is an interesting discussion. 

There's lots of stories circulating of people who use force to defend themselves, their family or their possessions and end up being the one prosecuted, not the burglar. 

Here's a link to the CPS website regarding the use of force. Although it clears up some points, to me it's still rather vague as it doesn't say whether keeping a weapon close to hand for the purpose of self defence and using it to injure or kill an intruder would be considered premeditated, as opposed to grabbing, say, a pair of scissors from a desk drawer in the heat of the moment.

Does anyone know if that's the case?

Mark


----------



## bugbear (4 Jun 2014)

mark aspin":1kqdg0b1 said:


> This is an interesting discussion.
> 
> There's *lots* of stories circulating of people who use force to defend themselves, their family or their possessions and end up being the one prosecuted, not the burglar.



I think there's a *small* number of stories that get a lot of publicity and repetition.

BugBear


----------



## Graham Orm (4 Jun 2014)

There was a case about a mile from us last year where the guy killed the intruder. He wasn't prosecuted but was then persecuted by family and friends of the thug who broke in. (He stabbed the intruder, I don't know who's knife he used). He's had to move away from the area now.


----------



## Jonzjob (4 Jun 2014)

I have a pepper spray in my bedside draw along with a heavy walking stick in the bedroom corner. The reason it's a bit heavier than normal is that there's a sword blade down the centre :mrgreen: 

I also keep a pepper spray in the drivers door pocket of our car. Legal or not, I would rather use it against some thug and be done by the nick-nicks than be caught without it. In fact, I think the law is different here?


----------



## sdjp (4 Jun 2014)

mark aspin":3j3vlp8e said:


> Here's a link to the CPS website regarding the use of force. Although it clears up some points, to me it's still rather vague as it doesn't say whether keeping a weapon close to hand for the purpose of self defence and using it to injure or kill an intruder would be considered premeditated, as opposed to grabbing, say, a pair of scissors from a desk drawer in the heat of the moment.
> 
> Does anyone know if that's the case?



So, I do a bit of mediaeval/renaissance martial arts. As a consequence, there's a (blunt) sword, and a few wasters (wooden practice swords) in my house [0]. Carrying swords around makes one look up the law on these things. I'm in Scotland, where it's subtly different, so do bear that in mind but:

If you keep something with the _intent_ of using it for 'personal defence', it is that intent that is sufficient to establish premeditation if it is used to injure or kill; as best as I understand it. On the other hand, if it can be demonstrated that you have good reason to have the item(s), and they are stored in a manner commensurate with that, then even if you were to use them, then there is no evidence of premeditation. Sadly, there's a large gulf in the middle of that, where it gets unclear.

I'm afraid that it looks like if you do have a piece of sports equipment, but post online that you 'keep it handy in case of an intruder', a sharp lawyer can possibly use that to demonstrate thought related to the use of the items, thus demonstrating intent. So don't do that.


I keep my re-enactment gear in my bedroom - the clothes are hung up in the wardrobe, the shield next to it with the weapons. That's purely on the basis of keeping it all together, rather than any other purpose [1].

Given that the rules allow for 'minimal force', I'm pretty sure that if I had to use any of the various weapon-like implements, it would be very clear from the end result if I used 'minimal force' or not. With a blunted sword, given the training that I've done, I would be expected to be able deploy a fairly precise level of force, ranging from trivial bruising through to probably fatal. It would be an interesting case to see what the net result would be if a reenactment weapon was used in a home-defence scenario. To date, I don't believe that there are any test cases - the only one I am aware of, the intruder realised that he'd brought a knife to a sword fight, and the situation was resolved without actual violence.

A quick word of advice - should you find yourself in an armed situation (with, e.g. a length of wood), and it comes to blows, then strike for the intruders right (or which ever is holding a weapon) side upper arm. No matter what you expect, armed fights are _quick_, and attempting to strike for knees or legs is too slow. Aiming for the arm holding the implement is most likely to result a quick strike, with the implement being easily returned to a defensive role, and it unlikely to result in any serious injury; but in the short term has the best chance of rendering the opponent less effective. 

If the opponent has a knife, you are better served with a longer stick, rather than another knife. Keeping them at a distance is far more effective at keeping yourself (and others) safe, rather than engaging in a knife fight. Knives don't allow a lot of defensive options, so you find that they tend to encourage either light slashes in the general direction, or committed stabs - and it's very difficult to block a committed stab without suffering some injury, unless one has an implement to hand [2]. Therefore, avoid getting into a knife fight, unless you have literally no other option.

The one time I've had to deal with an armed intruder, I projected him into a (wired glass) door, before I noticed he had a bloody knife. I disengaged, and he fled; which gave me time to assist with the person that had been stabbed. Fortunately, the knife had hit a rib, so it ended up being as minor as it could be, but that was a centimetre or so away from being lethal.


[0] And some shields, shield bosses, linen clothes etc… Oh, and some incomplete maille.

[1] Given the layout of my house, it's actually one of the _least_ accessible places to keep them. But then, I don't intent to use them against an intruder.

[2] Even then …


----------



## rafezetter (4 Jun 2014)

Grayorm":2nz3e6t2 said:


> There was a case about a mile from us last year where the guy killed the intruder. He wasn't prosecuted but was then persecuted by family and friends of the thug who broke in. (He stabbed the intruder, I don't know who's knife he used). He's had to move away from the area now.



how did they even know where he lived? unless the burgler knew beforehand and told others where he was going. Surely the police give away names etc?

If the friends etc knew beforehand surely that's grounds for prosecution as an accomplice after the fact?

maybe in cases like this the home owner should be allowed to give evidence anonymously to the court - the same way children are allowed to do.


----------



## rafezetter (4 Jun 2014)

sdjp":1yel5cwp said:


> To date, I don't believe that there are any test cases - the only one I am aware of, the intruder realised that he'd brought a knife to a sword fight, and the situation was resolved without actual violence.
> 
> A quick word of advice - should you find yourself in an armed situation (with, e.g. a length of wood), and it comes to blows, then strike for the intruders right (or which ever is holding a weapon) side upper arm. No matter what you expect, armed fights are _quick_, and attempting to strike for knees or legs is too slow. Aiming for the arm holding the implement is most likely to result a quick strike, with the implement being easily returned to a defensive role, and it unlikely to result in any serious injury; but in the short term has the best chance of rendering the opponent less effective.



first one made me laugh

2nd paragraph - if you can try to hit them on the wrist on the knobbly bone with a sharp crack - being hit there hurts like hell and will numb their hand, making any strike after less effective, or even dropping the knife - but chances are after being hit they might just flee, because it REALLY hurts even with something as easy to manipulate as a broom handle.

Another possibility is a long bit of bamboo cane - hold it loosely in your offhand (not your main hand) so it slides in and out and keep jabbing at their face with it (but do it randomly and unpredicatbly) - the risk of being hit in the eyes will greatly prevent them for making a move toward you, and if they grab it - pull back so they pull back harder then let go,but be ready so when they go on the floor and you rush (if you can) and give them a bloody good kicking. Alternatively if you're not so spry grab a chair and hit them with it while they are down / getting up.

You might not hurt them much but it'll be another case of them knowing you're not an easy target.

can of aerosol something and a lighter = flame thrower

of course doing any of the above might just anger them further, but with those kind of people chances are negotiating with them for easy items prolly would not be on the cards anyway.


----------



## Graham Orm (4 Jun 2014)

rafezetter":1ekibbon said:


> Grayorm":1ekibbon said:
> 
> 
> > There was a case about a mile from us last year where the guy killed the intruder. He wasn't prosecuted but was then persecuted by family and friends of the thug who broke in. (He stabbed the intruder, I don't know who's knife he used). He's had to move away from the area now.
> ...



It was in all the papers as the guy had died, I doubt it would be hard to find out. If you read down to the bottom you'll find they mention another case similar in Salford.

This is it, it wasn't hard to find. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... bed-872616


----------



## Jonzjob (4 Jun 2014)

I was unfortunate enough to have to spend 2 1/2 years in Singapore whilst serving her Magisty in the R.A.F.. Hell, but someone had to do it :mrgreen: 

One of the things that the local thugs used when they decided to thieve your home was to use a bamboo stick through the windows at night, which had wrought iron bars on them. The bamboo had razor blades set into the last couple of feet and a hook to grab your valuables, so that if you did wake up and try to grab it you soon let go. Perhaps something like that would work in a jabbing match?

You could always tell the knick-knicks that it is a very good tool for picking the apples off the tree you hope to have one day? :roll: :roll: It would certainly stop any thug grabbing hold of it when it was poked at him?


----------



## Phil Pascoe (4 Jun 2014)

My mother was told by senior copper years ago that the best thing to was keep a claw hammer by the bed. The reason being that you could always find an excuse for having it there - you been hanging pictures or a drawer was falling apart, for instance. If you had baseball bat, a kitchen knife or anything that wouldn't normally be found in a bedroom, you'd be likely to be prosecuted.


----------



## wcndave (4 Jun 2014)

Makes me glad to live where I do. Just today I saw four bikes from the local school all leaned up against my allotment wall and unlocked with helmets hanging from handlebars.

The school's 100m away but a sharp drop so all the kids leave bikes there.even the teachers. I remember thinking that wouldn't last long in uk..I left workshop door and window open accidentally for a week whilst in uk and didn't worry about it.

It's one major reason I'm glad my wife made me move here.

That plus my garden shed workshop is now a sixty square metre shop ;-)

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk


----------



## Phil Pascoe (4 Jun 2014)

I didn't lock doors until two years ago when I had someone walk in and nick some stuff including a bunch of keys, (which caused mayhem). It was as well it wasn't the other bunch as they were for the bank where she works. Then I had a trailer nicked, and another brand new one 10 months later. A load of men turned up at 3.00am and chucked it on the back of a low loader, locks and all. A copper told me six hours later that it would already be in the midlands - this is west Cornwall. My grandmother lived in her house without even owning keys to either door. I'd have the bastarrds whipped.


----------



## david123 (5 Jun 2014)

Well being woodworkers I guess we all have a bit of odd wood under the bed. I also have a large panel saw under there. It would be a brave man, even with a knife that would try attacking me whith that in hand, whirling it around my head. I have also been a martial artist for over 30 years, but, it think it would give the guy an instant idea that he would come out worst.he couldn't even try to grab it.

The cowards make my blood boil


----------



## Mr_P (5 Jun 2014)

Think most of us on here dabble on ebay so next time you sell something photograph it in your bedroom, repeat this process over a year or so and you will have an impressive archive of evidence in your defence. 

As an amateur tool dealer I would be spoilt for choice as I keep a lot of stock in my bedroom.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (5 Jun 2014)

Be honest - you go to bed with a Lie Nielsen No. 7, don't you?


----------



## bugbear (5 Jun 2014)

phil.p":32vbo3zp said:


> Be honest - you go to bed with a Lie Nielsen No. 7, don't you?



A running joke on OLDTOOLS is that a #8 is most useful for fending off angry pitbulls.

_On that nameless auction site, I really thought I had found a great
buy -- a 608C (Bedrock pitbull pacifier) -- mislabeled as a #8. Good
wood, although lots of surface rust.

On the positive side, the 900 series planes were drop forged, and are difficult to 
break. In the jointer sizes, they make particularly effective pit 
bull deterents.

and the Stanley #8 (pitbull defensive weapon, Jeff) worked like a charm

I too love my #6C and recently divested myself of a #7 as the pitbull
I share shopspace with didn't even blink when he got clunked in the
head with it. 

It's not unknown to hurt yourself (or a pitbull) with a plane....

On the first diagonal pass, the pitbull taming plane knocked the board ..._

(etc)

BugBear


----------



## Mr_P (5 Jun 2014)

Blimey I can get a few car fulls for £380 :shock: Besides think I can throw an unbranded 4 a lot further.


----------



## Benchwayze (5 Jun 2014)

rafezetter":2ywpcwap said:


> small hand spray full of something flammable and a lighter - you see them, spray and tell them what it is then light the lighter - chances of them rushing you... small.
> 
> At best you'll douse them enough to give them flash burns at most - but scare the **** out of them just the same.
> 
> ...



One problem Rafe, 

You MUST be prepared to do the business. Not just think about it; actually DO it, because if you don't follow through, you stand a good chance of being hurt even more. The average 'Joe', doesn't really want to hurt anyone, and the fear of killing or seriously injuring someone is always there, regardless of circumstances. That's the difference between them and us buddy! :wink:


----------



## rafezetter (6 Jun 2014)

Benchwayze":tkrkgwy8 said:


> rafezetter":tkrkgwy8 said:
> 
> 
> > small hand spray full of something flammable and a lighter - you see them, spray and tell them what it is then light the lighter - chances of them rushing you... small.
> ...



Quite true, so I'll just pretend it's my private school nemesis Michael Blunt *may he rot in hell sometime soon*, and I'll turn that burglar into a PG tips t-bag (with 2,000 perforations.... ) I get my revenge and an asshat gets removed from the genepool.


----------



## n0legs (6 Jun 2014)

rafezetter":1eqcnbu0 said:


> Quite true, so I'll just pretend it's my private school nemesis Michael Blunt *may he rot in hell sometime soon*, and I'll turn that burglar into a PG tips t-bag (with 2,000 perforations.... ) I get my revenge and an asshat gets removed from the genepool.




Wow :shock: Rein in those anger issues bro' you'll be getting an ulcer.
Or maybe lay off the caffeine a little :lol:


----------



## Phil Pascoe (7 Jun 2014)

Caffeine? caffeine?
Calm down dear!


----------



## DennisCA (7 Jun 2014)

Makes me glad to live where I live, property and burglary crimes are pretty rate on a national level. I didn't have locks installed on my house for 9 months and never had an issue. Kids leave their bikes in the ditch next to the bus stop. The contractor who did my floor left his equipment out behind house after he went home, even over the weekend.


----------



## riclepp (8 Jun 2014)

Just don'tgive the theives time to react, get in close jab to the throat or solar Plexus and they will go down fast, also make as much noise as you can as this will distract them. If they do have a weapon (say a knife) they wont be able to draw it back enough to stab and by the time they have raised their arm up, you would have already got in and done the deed that needs to be done. The other will almost be off by what they have witnessed.


----------



## Noel (8 Jun 2014)

riclepp":2svl39p8 said:


> Just don'tgive the theives time to react, get in close jab to the throat or solar Plexus and they will go down fast, also make as much noise as you can as this will distract them. If they do have a weapon (say a knife) they wont be able to draw it back enough to stab and by the time they have raised their arm up, you would have already got in and done the deed that needs to be done. The other will almost be off by what they have witnessed.



Might be best to ignore Rambo's  "advice". Just do a runner and call the cops. It ain't Hollywood.


----------



## riclepp (8 Jun 2014)

Who's says anything about Hollywood Noel' just reality


----------



## Noel (8 Jun 2014)

riclepp":2z44of8f said:


> Who's says anything about Hollywood Noel' just reality



You're ex SAS, Seal, Delta Force, one them secret outfits, eh?


----------



## riclepp (8 Jun 2014)

Nope none of the above. See avitar numpty. Also being doing martial arts for 15 years and is a technique taught by most as self defence, so no rambo at all.

Noel you are really proving to be a complete silly person!


----------



## Owl (8 Jun 2014)

riclepp":6jlm4xy8 said:


> Just don'tgive the theives time to react, get in close jab to the throat or solar Plexus and they will go down fast, also make as much noise as you can as this will distract them. If they do have a weapon (say a knife) they wont be able to draw it back enough to stab and by the time they have raised their arm up, you would have already got in and done the deed that needs to be done. The other will almost be off by what they have witnessed.




What 'ordinary' man ever feels the need to get close to someone with a knife :| 

Why lower the topic by calling someone an silly person ?


----------



## riclepp (8 Jun 2014)

Owl":8xtdcj6o said:


> riclepp":8xtdcj6o said:
> 
> 
> > Just don'tgive the theives time to react, get in close jab to the throat or solar Plexus and they will go down fast, also make as much noise as you can as this will distract them. If they do have a weapon (say a knife) they wont be able to draw it back enough to stab and by the time they have raised their arm up, you would have already got in and done the deed that needs to be done. The other will almost be off by what they have witnessed.
> ...


 

When adrenalin is released ordinary unassuming people do some extreme things. 

When a moderator causes personal insult by labelling a personal as "rambo" and then insults them further by saying I am with the secret squirrels when my regiment I was in is clearly shown. 

Words of eloquence are not appropriate, that's why! Or is it okay for a moderator to sling insults at people, when they should be impartial.


----------



## dunbarhamlin (9 Jun 2014)

Richard, you have to remember folks without a military background won't necessarily recognise regimental badges.
When I was fit, I might have had a go (who really knows how they'll react before the event, though.) But I think I'd be a damn fool to now unless I was cornered. "Things" can always be replaced.


----------



## Owl (9 Jun 2014)

dunbarhamlin":28mva2g8 said:


> Richard, you have to remember folks without a military background won't necessarily recognise regimental badges.
> *When I was fit*, I might have had a go (who really knows how they'll react before the event, though.) But I think I'd be a damn fool to now unless I was cornered. "Things" can always be replaced.



I think you've hit the nail on the head there! all the 'advice' given so far in my opinion solely relates to the age and fitness of people. As I am in my early 80's and far from being in the best of health any intruder facing me with a weapon can take what he likes.


----------



## JustBen (9 Jun 2014)

I think a lot of these scenarios come down to your 'Fight or Flight' reaction.

Once the adrenaline starts pumping, it's pot luck what happens.
Some people run, some people will stand and negotiate and for some, the red mist will descend.
Adrenaline is an incredible hormone and can make the weakest of people do things they haven't done in many years(even if only for a very short period)

You won't know your reaction until it happens..... But lets hope it never happens.


----------



## rafezetter (9 Jun 2014)

Noel":3l6530uf said:


> riclepp":3l6530uf said:
> 
> 
> > Who's says anything about Hollywood Noel' just reality
> ...



He's a red beret - Parachute regiment. And I didn't need to look it up, some regiments are well known


----------



## wcndave (10 Jun 2014)

Some chill pills in order, I think someone calling an ex-para, with 15 years martial arts, a military avatar, who suggests when someone comes at you with a knife to get in close and have them, "Rambo", tongue in cheep with smiley face is completely acceptable. Calling someone a complete silly person is not.

I wouldn't recognise the badge either and guess what. I don't feel stupid. 

Time to stop watching this thread I feel.


----------

