# "Yorkshire light" sash window



## Doug71 (10 Sep 2019)

A customer has asked me to make a couple of Yorkshire light/horizontal sliding sash windows, I haven't made any of these for years! I always made them traditionally, the sash just sliding on a hardwood lath, they would stick in winter and rattle in summer.

I see some companies sell metal tracks and rollers for them which would help, add a few draught strips and it might make a serviceable window? Also guess Accoya would help solve the swelling sash problem.

Thing is building is listed so I might have to make them like for like anyway, will know more after I have had a measure up.

Anybody making them still or got any experience of the metal tracks etc?

Thanks, Doug


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## MikeG. (10 Sep 2019)

If the building is listed, then these works will have required permission, and it is an absolute certainty that this permission would have required 1:1 or 1:2 detailed sections of the joinery. I urge you to check with your employer, the architect, your customer, or the planner, before you make something which could later be rejected by the Listed Buildings consultant or subject to enforcement by the planners. Believe it or not, there is actual criminal liability involved with works to a listed building, so I would strongly suggest you pass the decision making on this over to the person whose role it is. If the owner hasn't sought permission to replace windows, then you might be wise to suggest that he does, because again, it is a criminal offense to do such works to a listed building without permission. 

Sorry if that all sounds a bit heavy, but I've seen a builder ruined by doing a couple of small jobs to a listed building without permission. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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## Doug71 (10 Sep 2019)

Yes, thanks Mike, I understand all that and totally agree.

I am only going initially to look at the job and give them an estimate for making windows, I generally try and avoid fitting windows these days, too much like hard work when you work alone.

People often moan about their buildings being listed but it does sometimes help as they don't always have to comply with other regs.


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## Blackswanwood (10 Sep 2019)

Our house is listed Grade 2 but we are also classed as within the curtilage of a Grade 1 listed building which makes things complicated. When we bought and renovated the house c6yrs ago we replaced the 1970’s windows that somehow had been put in by the previous owner with Yorkshire Sliders based on photographs dating back to the start of the last century.

It may be that as we were rescuing the building we were cut some slack by the planners who confirmed the design in a detailed drawing of the windows was acceptable. The windows run on rollers on a metal bead, look the part and work very effectively.


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## MikeG. (11 Sep 2019)

One curiosity for me is how these windows have become called "Yorkshire", when they were found all over the country. Signs of them are to be found in most timber frame buildings here in East Anglia, some are still extant, and I've seen them in houses in Kent, Sussex, Devon, Shropshire, Worcestershire and Herefordshire amongst others. 

The predecessor of the modern window (in the UK) was a hole in the wall covered (internally) by a panel of woven hazel or willow, then later by waxed cloth. This was slid along the cill to open or close. The earliest openable glazed windows merely took this exact same pattern but used glass in a frame. Thus, the horizontal sliding sash was the first form of openable window, and was found from Kent to Cornwall, Sussex to Scotland. So how come Yorkshire gets its name stuck to the design?


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## rafezetter (11 Sep 2019)

No idea MikeG - but a quick google produced some other interesting info, the sash window design came about from the time when streets were narrow and a window with a pane that swings open could have touched the opposite building or "impeded the path of a thatcher".

Maybe the nickname, and thier tendancy to get tight in the winter and a Yorkshiremans predilection for frugality are related? :wink:


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## Blackswanwood (11 Sep 2019)

It is odd how place names attach themselves to things ... Bombay Sapphire Gin is apparently made in Andover ...

I remember reading in some blurb from English Heritage that building regulations introduced after the Fire of London led to the development of the sash window as the timber all had to be set back from the line of the brickwork.


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## MikeG. (11 Sep 2019)

Don't confuse sash windows with horizontal sliding sash windows. They're very different beasts, and the latter pre-dates the fire of London by centuries.


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## Doug71 (11 Sep 2019)

Blackswanwood":fkys7epp said:


> I remember reading in some blurb from English Heritage that building regulations introduced after the Fire of London led to the development of the sash window as the timber all had to be set back from the line of the brickwork.



I prefer the look of windows set further back from the front of the brickwork and they catch less weather, why is it not done like this more often? They don't have to be put in from the inside/ in a reveal just set back a bit more than usual.

There are some new houses being built near me, fake stone cills with pvc windows set back about 25mm, the pvc windows have normal cill/sub cill (75mm?) above the fake stone, just looks all wrong


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## Trevanion (12 Sep 2019)

I don't think I've ever actually seen one of these in the flesh out here in the west, I honestly can't give any advice on it. I'm not sure what the planning boards are like in your side of the country but they've definitely become more relaxed over here, I've seen a few listed building signed off for plastic windows and doors.

Perhaps they were given the name as they were more prevalent in Yorkshire as they take a veeeery long time to accept new ideas? :lol: "VERTICAL OPENING SASHES!? Pah!"


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## MikeG. (12 Sep 2019)

Trevanion":1imipvr5 said:


> ......... I've seen a few listed building signed off for plastic windows and doors........



I'd be absolutely staggered if this were the case. That's jaw-dropping.....


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## Benchwayze (12 Sep 2019)

It's my guess that windows were probably called wind holes originally? :mrgreen: 

John (hammer)


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## Trevanion (12 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":2pmt5g4w said:


> I'd be absolutely staggered if this were the case. That's jaw-dropping.....



I said" I know of a few", I really meant to say two :lol:. One was right on the seafront and had aluminium clad softwood windows put in the front (Which I realistically don't see lasting anywhere near 10 years even with the cladding, I pulled some softwood boxed sash out of a house not far away and they'd only been in there 4 years before the cills totally rotted out) and plastic fantastic in the back. Grade 2 listed building, to be fair, the original (Or at least the last iteration) windows were very straightforward casement windows with nothing fancy going on, 4 square panes and that was about it so the plastic and ally-clad ones look pretty much identical from a short distance away. But it's still a bit of a kick in the teeth when they're letting stuff like that slide through because listed buildings are one of the few things that are keeping the joinery trade going around here, I am hoping it's not going to become too commonplace.


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## MikeG. (12 Sep 2019)

Are you sure those works were done with permission?


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## Doug71 (12 Sep 2019)

A good few years ago I made some double glazed sliding sash windows for a customer, supply only, they just brought me the measurements.

A couple of months later I had the sashes back in my workshop swapping the double glazing for single glazing as turned out the place was listed. Customer paid for all the work but I always ask now.


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## Blackswanwood (12 Sep 2019)

We had to use heritage double glazing which is thinner than a normal double glazed unit. I am not sure what difference this ended up making to their effectiveness but it definitely worked aesthetically.


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## MikeG. (13 Sep 2019)

Blackswanwood":4s7lwqkx said:


> We had to use heritage double glazing which is thinner than a normal double glazed unit. I am not sure what difference this ended up making to their effectiveness but it definitely worked aesthetically.



Unfortunately, that is renowned for really high failure rates. It did, at one time, look like being a good answer for replacement glazing in listed buildings.


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## Rorschach (13 Sep 2019)

With the many marvels in technology these surely they could make a PVC window and trim that looks suitable for listed buildings. It seems madness to use inferior products that don't last just for the sake of aesthetics. You are not saving the building as each time repairs have to be done you are damaging more of the original structure.


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## Trevanion (13 Sep 2019)

MikeG.":1lc4uh5i said:


> Are you sure those works were done with permission?



Absolutely definitely 100%. It caused such a local hoohah that they couldn't have done it without permission otherwise they would have had to tear them out by now "When I put in my windows 5 years ago I couldn't use PVC so why are they allowed blah blah blah".

Another good example of "How did they get away with that" is a local building I've dubbed "THE CUBE". Build in the Preseli hills where all the houses are stone cottages and very old they somehow managed to get planning to build a new building/kind of an extension but not attached to the old building which was a very old listed stone cottage and it was all up within 4 months. It's right smack dab on the main road in one of the most beautiful parts of the country, right bloody eyesore. Now the cube is practically what it says on the tin, a big, white rendered, cedar clad on one face, loads of big panes of glass and almost Mediterranean looking architecture cube. These people moved down from somewhere else in the country and only spend 3 or so months there of a year. Then there's the poor chap down the road who's spent his whole life there who's been trying to extend his house for the better part of a decade with plans that stay true to the original tiny cottage but keeps getting rejected despite the fact you cannot see the house from anywhere on a road.


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## Rorschach (13 Sep 2019)

Trevanion":vjuk5t2j said:


> MikeG.":vjuk5t2j said:
> 
> 
> > Are you sure those works were done with permission?
> ...



Bribes, that's how they got away with it. Rife in most planning departments, you can bribe to get something done, you can also bribe to get something stopped.


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