# Celebration of Craftsmanship



## Mrs C (8 Aug 2019)

For anyone in the Cheltenham area over the next couple of weeks the below is really worth a visit if you have a couple of hours to spare. Starts next weekend, there are normally some amazing things on display.

https://www.celebrationofcraftsmanship.com/


----------



## Steve Maskery (8 Aug 2019)

It's a few years since I've been but I've always enjoyed it when I have.

What always amazes me is that there is so much talent here in the UK. We really are World Leaders in design and craftsmanship. And there is a wide range of actual skill on display, too, from good to fantastic.

But it's not all perfect.

I remember one year when I went, I saw a sideboard-type-thingy where one door had very obviously been hung upside down. You could still smell the lacquer, too. I bet the maker had been up until the early hours trying to get it finished and had cocked up due to tiredness. I felt for him (or her, I can't remember who it was).

So I always come away inspired, wanting to come back to my own workshop and make something special.

I think that my best work, I mean my _very_ best work, would at least hold up against the most flawed pieces there.


----------



## custard (9 Aug 2019)

This year is an especially good year to visit because they have a record number of furniture schools exhibiting. That means an enthusiastic amateur can see the kind of work that is being produced by students.

In my opinion the main reason so few hobbyist woodworkers get anywhere near their true potential is that they invest too much of their resources on tools rather than training. Here's a chance to see what that magic ingredient of training can deliver!


----------



## Doug B (9 Aug 2019)

Yep really looking forward to this years show, my good mate JonnyD formally of this parish is exhibiting for the first time so an added bonus to what is a really good exhibition.


----------



## Ttrees (9 Aug 2019)

custard":3292xqed said:


> This year is an especially good year to visit because they have a record number of furniture schools exhibiting. That means an enthusiastic amateur can see the kind of work that is being produced by students.
> 
> In my opinion the main reason so few hobbyist woodworkers get anywhere near their true potential is that they invest too much of their resources on tools rather than training. Here's a chance to see what that magic ingredient of training can deliver!



Custard,
Curious on why do you think in this day and age, that training is a magical ingredient.
Maybe 20 years ago, I might have agreed with you.
What's lacking from the internet, if one keeps reading the contributions from folks like yourself?

Tom


----------



## woodbloke66 (9 Aug 2019)

Ttrees":181p3z6e said:


> custard":181p3z6e said:
> 
> 
> > This year is an especially good year to visit because they have a record number of furniture schools exhibiting. That means an enthusiastic amateur can see the kind of work that is being produced by students.
> ...


I happen to agree with Custard but I'm also curious to see what his reply will be before I pitch in with my 2 euros worth - Rob


----------



## thetyreman (9 Aug 2019)

I would like to go one year, looks quite intimidating though, not sure I'd enjoy it, would be good to see the dovetails up close and inspect them to see if mine are anywhere near as good.


----------



## Just4Fun (9 Aug 2019)

custard":rlq6muol said:


> This year is an especially good year to visit ...


That's good because this year I am actually close by so I will pop along.


----------



## Fitzroy (9 Aug 2019)

Over the years I’ve seen more and more of our training go from face to face to CBT (computer based training). Whilst CBT has a place the problem with it is you can’t ask questions or clarify issues, or be picked up by a knowledgeable person who observes where you are going wrong. This can leave you to have to make assumptions and/or think you’ve understood something but actually be unconsciously incompetent. 

We (in my industry) use CBT to build basic awareness and get people up the learning curve followed by application and practice overseen by an experienced individual. 

I use YouTube heavily in my woodworking learning journey but know formal time in a workshop with an experienced tutor would enable me to leap forwards in my skills. 

Just my 2p worth. 

Fitz


----------



## MikeG. (10 Aug 2019)

custard":f12adsos said:


> ...In my opinion the main reason so few hobbyist woodworkers get anywhere near their true potential is that they invest too much of their resources on tools rather than *wood*...



*My variation* on your theme.

I went to one of the first of these shows, 20 or 25 years ago, when it was one room and took just a few minutes to go around. I'm seriously tempted to go this year. And bravo for the sensible ticket prices......


----------



## woodbloke66 (10 Aug 2019)

MikeG.":1po4j3rr said:


> I went to one of the first of these shows, 20 or 25 years ago, when it was one room and took just a few minutes to go around. I'm seriously tempted to go this year. And bravo for the sensible ticket prices......



I went to a similar show in Cheltenham during the 70's when I was at uni to see many of the classic English A&C pieces by the Barnsley's, one of which was the domed linen chest with the exposed dovetails on the lid. At that time, there were none of these new fangled smartfones and digital cameras, so I shot off a complete roll of proper 'old skool' film on my Nikon FM, after which I took it into Boots for developing and printing.
Going back a few days later to collect the pics, I was devastated to find out that they'd lost the roll of film :evil: ...no pics - Rob


----------



## custard (10 Aug 2019)

Ttrees":2yq0xs3w said:


> custard":2yq0xs3w said:
> 
> 
> > This year is an especially good year to visit because they have a record number of furniture schools exhibiting. That means an enthusiastic amateur can see the kind of work that is being produced by students.
> ...



When it comes to learning how to work wood the internet sounds like a great solution, but in truth it often falls down. 

Let's take this forum as an example. Sure, there are some very knowledgeable people who will share their experience. But there are also plenty of BS artists who have never made a stick of furniture but somehow feel qualified to share their clueless opinions. The problem is distinguishing one from the other!

Then there's the commercial reality behind YouTube videos. The people who post this content aren't trying to educate as much as attract and retain an audience. Consequently they have to speed everything up to prevent viewers getting bored and drifting to other sites. But woodworking just isn't like that. In reality successful woodworking requires planning and patience and loads and loads of preparation. All things that make for dull videos but successful projects! Consequently people hoping to learn from YouTube videos come away with the wrong impression of how long projects take, and think they can just pop into their shed and bang out something impressive and useful in a single afternoon. 

I accept the internet has a role, it's useful when you need a quick answer to a quick question. But as a central learning resource for woodworking it's pretty much a non starter.


----------



## woodbloke66 (10 Aug 2019)

custard":3gg1kezm said:


> When it comes to learning how to work wood the internet sounds like a great solution, but in truth it often falls down.
> 
> Let's take this forum as an example. Sure, there are some very knowledgeable people who will share their experience. But there are also plenty of BS artists who have never made a stick of furniture but somehow feel qualified to share their clueless opinions. The problem is distinguishing one from the other!
> 
> ...



As you rightly say, t'interweb is very useful when you're doing some research on a specific topic, or you need a quick answer to solve a particular problem and even then, you may not find it, which is why I don't bother very much with all the UToobers although some are much better than others.
It's also true that we tend to 'click away' from something fairly rapidly; not so much with UToob as it's more visual but in my experience it's certainly the case with Instagram where some well meaning contributors type the equivalent of War and Peace :lol: accompanied by one pic...that's an instant 'move on' for me. When I worked for a certain tool company that shall be nameless, the object was to get the message across within 10seconds of the viewer starting to read it, otherwise they're going to 'click away'.
Custard is right in that woodworking is about planning, patience, preparation and ultimately *really* thinking your way through a project, especially if it's something you haven't tackled before. If you have a time served, gnarly old craftsman constantly bending your ear telling what to do and more importantly, what not to do it's vastly more effective than sitting in front of a 'pooter screen. My two euros - Rob


----------



## Sideways (10 Aug 2019)

I'm a little too far away to treat myself to a trip to this show but I've enjoyed reading through the website and looking at the websites and portfolios of many of the exhibitors.
One thing struck me (not for the first time) in the process :
Good craftsmanship can be seen and admired for it's own value, but aesthetics and design are - at least to me - what makes a piece successful or not. In my eyes the very best work comes when the designer also understands the materials and methods and achieves a lightness in their piece that most people cannot, without making it fragile.
I see the woodworking schools as playing an important role in inspiring students to experiment and encouraging creative design.
Thanks for spreading the word about the event


----------



## Ttrees (10 Aug 2019)

Since this thread referenced about woodworking shows, I kind of took your word hobbyist in this particular thread to mean something entirely different #-o 

I suppose I'm probably more of an obsessionist, rather than hobbyist, and have been around long enough that I can easily spot the BS artists from the experts.
Shows like this are what I might be quite interested in sometime down the road, as I never done any formal training, and this is how one could get the leg up.

From above comments mentioned here, I was really expecting to find more discussion about other things possibly missing from the internet like... 
Obscure thinking outside the box design principals being forced upon thee often,
business studies, and marketing/learning to talk and being able to convey your expertise....
and (insert your point here) kinda thing.

Thankfully I have plenty of wood, and that's the reason I have my machinery.
I don't see where you could go wrong having/spending much time and effort on what will be good machines that one will not "grow out of" in this game.

What's even more specifically concerning this topic,
I would think it a bit silly if one were to go studying for years and not have anything at the end other than a piece of paper, although I presume folks who go to formal learning establishments are probably hoarding aplenty, _waiting for the day_, or have deep enough pockets to acquire the lot.

Design is like music to me, and that's that.

Not that I'm totally disagreeing with you folks, 
I'm just fishing on what else could be studied.
Thanks
Tom


----------



## woodbloke66 (10 Aug 2019)

Ttrees":1u27gqnt said:


> From above comments mentioned here, I was really expecting to find more discussion about other things possibly missing from the internet like...
> Obscure thinking outside the box design principals being forced upon thee often,
> business studies, and marketing/learning to talk and being able to convey your expertise....
> and (insert your point here) kinda thing.
> ...


Peter Sefton has probably got one of the best schools currently and the syllabus for his long course deals with the business aspect in Term 3 but there appears to be a caveat of '_should they wish._' There's a little optional bit tacked onto the end dealing with 'Self Employment, writing a Business Plan and Marketing' so it appears that workshop activities are paramount.
Conversely, if you were to dip into Alan Peters book "Cabinet Making, the Professional Approach" there's a huge swathe dealing with the business aspect of running a workshop which I feel is equally, if not more important than the actual nuts n'bolts of woodworking; this was one of the prime movers of John Makepeace's Parnham House course lasting two years. Anyone seeking to go into self-employed woodworking as a means of earning a living should, in my view, regard themselves as a businessman/woman first and a woodworker some way second - Rob


----------



## Ttrees (10 Aug 2019)

That's the type of thing I was referring to Rob.
I haven't set out to do that type of studying ever, although I do read about various related threads here about this whenever it comes up.
In this regard I don't know the BS artists from the real ones, I suppose, 
but at least I have a pretty good idea by the work they do, and the fact that these threads never really
concern much other than the professionals. 

Maybe I'm living in fantasy land, but these kind of shows could propel one to a career they might have thought otherwise near impossible.
Tom


----------



## Trevanion (10 Aug 2019)

I hope I'm not considered a BS artist :lol:

I think I've got a fairly unique outlook on the subject having grown up with the internet, if it _wasn't_ for youtube videos and the like I seriously doubt I would be in the line of work I am in now and love. Do you know what started me down this path? "How It's Made" on the Discovery Channel, more specifically the "baseball bats" episode. It was the first proper exposure I had to woodturning at age 13-14 which made me very interested in the subject and I started watching youtube videos on it from Mike Waldt, Carl Jacobson, Robbie the Woodturner etc... which made me able to see what was possible with the machine, which resulted in me getting a lathe (An old Myford ML8 ) for Christmas and having a play with it. 

I suppose you could say the first training you receive is at the school level, I.E Design and Technology, Resistant Materials. Whilst I studied this curriculum I would say there is perhaps nothing worse for putting off someone from doing a practical career for life. The teacher was absolute rubbish, seriously unencouraging and really had no interest in anything outside of CNC machines, "Why are you bothering doing woodturning" kind of level. The curriculum was really low on practical and very high on theory work focusing on ridiculous nonsense like "Stakeholder requirements" and other babble straight off "The Apprentice". Looking back I really don't see the point in teaching this to sub 16-year-old children when they really only need the very basics of how to work with materials and tools, not making grand plans on how to become a millionaire in a month. This should only really be taught at the higher level, otherwise, you're just going to end up with too many people who have got excellent paperwork but have absolutely no practical skill. So all in all, school qualifications were really a total waste of time and didn't help me at all. I really think they try to cram too much into one pupil which really drastically lowers the quality of pupil being taught, too much on the mind along with the stress of so many exams, etc... I didn't revise for any of my exams or really worry or stress out much about it at all which I really think helped my mental state going on further in life.

One of the best things I ever did was enroll in a college run course which allowed me out of school one day a week to do a "Construction" course. The first year was Bricklaying and the second year was Carpentry and Joinery based, it was run pretty much how a level one qualification in the subjects would be like and I extremely enjoyed both years as there were encouraging tutors who knew what they were talking about and actually wanted to teach people to become future tradesmen rather than glorified entrepreneurs. It was great as it taught you the very basics of working with your hands, using tools and how materials worked which is really what should've been taught in school. This really prepared me for hitting the ground running when I went to college, which I actually enrolled for a Furniture Making and Restoration course which the college did. "Hmph, good luck making any money doing furniture making" said the D&T teacher... Well I suppose he was right as I never did make any money making furniture :lol:. I did a year of FM&R which I really enjoyed but I felt it really wasn't going to result in an apprenticeship or a job, I learned quite a lot from there but not as much as I could have because there was a lot of students that just take any course to get government benefits without having much interest in the subject. Of course, the college had to make sure these students passed to get funding from the government for the course, so the students with half a clue about what they were doing were really left to their own devices whilst the focus was on the ones that won't pass without serious help to scrape past the finishing line. I suppose if I had enrolled in one of the more prestigious training colleges like Rycotewood, Barnsley Workshops or Parnham House I would've been pushed more to become a cabinetmaker as I would've been in a more intense learning environment, but not everyone can afford the luxury of traveling far afield for that  . 

After that year I ended up enrolling in the Joinery course in the college, which was practically the same as the school link course I did with a little more paperwork, in the first two months I had blown through the whole practical course and spent the rest of the time either messing around or working on workshop fixtures. Towards the end of the first year, I was offered an apprenticeship with a very reputable local joiner who predominantly specialized in traditional boxed sash amongst other work. This is where the training really took off for me, I learned more in a month working for this individual than I had in 4 years of school and college. The kicker really was I was working with people that weren't even qualified to do the work, they just picked up the trade at some point in time and went from there and were training people to become qualified. I spent a year there before the business was shut down, as all good things must come to an end. I was transferred to another joiner who advertised themselves as "the premier local joiner" that used CNC machines and other state of the art equipment, what I saw there in the 3 months I worked there was shocking, terrible workmanship, constant bickering etc... it really was a horrible environment to work in. When I talked to one of the longer time-served employees I was told about 100 people had come and gone in 4 years or so, in such a rural community this means something is seriously wrong. Had I not worked for the other individual and this was my first experience of Joinery at a professional level I really think things would've turned out differently. This company had qualified people but had no idea of the job outside of their specific task, imagine a window painter that only ever painted windows during and after his apprenticeship having a Level 3 qualification in Joinery despite having never actually done Joinery. When I had a hammer thrown at me by the big boss for some minor mistake I thought that was enough and I left, only the have him on my doorstep the next day begging me to come back, which I did foolishly for 3 days before I started having grief off his wife for being a "coward" and a "troublemaker" despite only quietly quiting.

I was extremely fortunate to have yet another apprenticeship with another proper craftsman, who was funnily enough, a qualified farmer but not a joiner. This man had no formal training or apprenticeship with anyone, only picked up what he saw and read out of books, and to this day is possibly the best craftsman I've seen. Lovely man to work for, still do . I finished my level 3 qualification, despite not really having done much acutal work in college except help out with maintenance and fixtures :lol:.

So all in all, what do I think? TV and Youtube was definitely the gateway drug into what I'm doing now, without that I would be some mediocre computer engineer or rubbish scientist with 40K of student debts tying me down for the rest of my life over a piece of paper. Since education at school level is so rubbish (in my case anyway) and children can't get exposed to anything beyond a CNC machine anymore how are they supposed to find out that they might have a gift for working with their hands? These poor kids get shoved down the funnel of university education and pay for it for the rest of their lives, you see it now, people in their 30s and 40s giving up their jobs in computing and science to pursue something more down to earth, wishing they had done it much earlier. School education beyond age 14 was totally pointless for me and a total waste of time I'll never have back, College was good and gave me access to on the job training and that is where things really fired up for me and gleaming information on certain subjects from old books such as traditional joinery and machining has really helped me stick out. There are so few people in the joinery and even carpentry trade too, a shortage actually. I've been offered 2 very well paid positions recently from separate companies as there just isn't anyone with enough mind-power to fill these slots anymore, all those people were shoved down the aforementioned funnel of university back at the school level. You need smart people in the trades too, running building sites and workshops, not enough chiefs so to speak. Also, I must sing the praises of this forum, I’ve been a member for little under a year now and the amount of little facts and knowledge I pick up is truly remarkable. The vast amount of total experience here is astonishing and it’s really a one stop shop for any question at all. It’s possibly one of the best things I’ve joined up to, where else could you get helpful expert advice such the advice I got for my motor problems the other day off Bob Minchin for FREE?

School = Bad
College Training = Good
Learning from online videos and articles = Good
On the Job Training = Excellent
Further learning with old books = Also Excellent
Forums = Best  

Anyway, Rant over


----------



## Trainee neophyte (10 Aug 2019)

Trevanion":3i4futm2 said:


> I hope I'm not considered a BS artist :lol:
> 
> ....
> 
> Anyway, Rant over



Anyone who makes things for a living - no matter what it is - deserves respect. Anyone who fills spreadsheets for a living, and gets paid three times more that a "maker" is probably in for a rude shock soon(ish).

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the internet has both experts, and people like me, adding their opinions, and we all know opions are like ar$es -everyone has one. I have no illusions as to my abilities, and yet the internet has opened me up to a world of possibilities. Howeve, I believe that I can only conceive of this as possible, because of my early training. By early, I mean age 7-10, at boarding school, where woodwork was a required subject. I learned how to hold a saw properly, how to use a spokeshave, how o make little boats (we were 7 years old - what else would you want to make?). I shudder to think of the accidents that could have happened with 30 7year olds in a workshop surrounded by sharp Implements - probably be illegal now, but somehow we all survived. I distinctly remember learning to close my eyes when I blew sawdust away - two days of not being able to see out of one eye meant I REALLY learned that lesson.

Next was a comprehensive school (do they still have those?) with woodwork and metalwork, but being state schools, I learned nothing at all, and it was considered irrelevant, and for thickos who wouldn't be able to get a real job. The REALLY retarded went to "rural studies", because we all know farmers can make money without ever having to think, or count, or breath with their mouths closed. (Before anyone gets upset, I am a farmer).

Many years later, and with the help of YouTube and books, I have made a vast array of things, because I believed it was possible. All of that belief comes down to what I learned when I was 7, with hands-on training. In another life, I might have made a competent carpenter,although I have the agricultural "that'll do" problem of never seeking perfection. It is my humble opinion that a craft is learned by doing, with the comforting presence of Mr Miagi looking over your shoulder when things get tricky.

"Wax on. Wax off."


----------



## Trevanion (17 Aug 2019)

I know this thread is supposed to be about the award but I'd like to add to my rant  

I was talking to a mechanic friend today who's had a college apprentice for over a year now, a very talented mechanic at 17 who from what I was told excels at the practical stuff and is very keen. Unfortunately, this lad was at risk of not passing further in his apprenticeship because he didn't have the correct piece of paper that said he could do Maths since he hadn't passed with a C grade in school, so they make you do it all again in college on the side. Now, this kid wasn't good at maths, he wasn't an academic at all so he struggled the whole way through this qualification to try and achieve his C grade despite the mechanic and even the college tutors saying it wasn't _really_ necessary for the job as there really isn't much in the way of mathematics that isn't already sorted out for you on a chart or something. He managed to scrape a C grade in the end after a re-sit but I do find it really daft that the college was going to halt this boy's further education and apprenticeship just because he couldn't do something that wasn't really relevant to the course, all because the government thinks everyone in the country should have a C in Mathematics minimum. Surely if everyone's got a C in mathematics that just makes it a worthless grade anyway?

With the woodworking, I do quite a lot of mathematics, but almost all of it is done on a calculator once it gets over 2-digit numbers. I would wager I haven't even used 20% of what I had to learn in school to pass mathematics, most of it you don't encounter in day to day life unless you're a maths teacher :?. I also feel unless you're applying that knowledge you've learned to something fairly regularly(I.E Using geometry in woodworking) you pretty much forget all about it once you leave school, so then what's the point of learning it? Wouldn't it be more useful to be learning proper life skills that WILL help people down the line in their life rather than a bunch of babble you don't need to know unless you're going into those specific fields? As I said, the last 2 years of school for me were a total waste of time except for the construction course I did, I would've been far better off going into further education earlier on and learning mathematics and such relevant to the field I was getting into rather than trying to cram too much unnecessary, useless knowledge in my head.

With it being the exam results season, Anyone else got any thoughts?


----------



## Jacob (18 Aug 2019)

Can't say I'm that bothered about Celebration of Craftsmanship myself - such a struggle to be clever and original! I've got a bit of a prejudice against 'creativity'.  It's not always good for people! So much imitation of the so-called masters; "a Krenov inspired design" has become a contradiction in terms. 
Yes for internet and media being a jungle with at least 90% total misinformation on woodwork. 
Mags like "Woodworker" were good 60 years ago but it's been downhill ever since and the whole craft being re-written by born-again experts and gadget salesmen.
And yes for training - if it's the right stuff, but how would anybody know? Trad sources such as City &Guilds are reliabIe. 
I was amazed at the simple stuff I learned with my brief exposure - even after years of reading mags and books full of, at best, too much information or at worst, total gadget sales pitches. Doubly amazed that all the stuff I learnt in wood work classes at school suddenly made sense!


----------



## Jacob (18 Aug 2019)

Trevanion":3rk938sn said:


> .....
> With it being the exam results season, Anyone else got any thoughts?


About maths, I'm not bad at it myself but what has intrigued me over the years is how much craft work you can do, and probably do better, with hardly numerical maths skills at all. There's a whole massive tradition of graphic layout techniques, rods, projections etc. Brain power needed but not much maths. 
And a whole set of techniques for precision making with simple tools; dividers, sliding bevels, squares etc. It's possible to make precise examples of complicated objects starting with no maths or measurements at all; just a few marks on a board followed up with dividers, gauges etc.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (18 Aug 2019)

Trevanion":2g0w5i9c said:


> I know this thread is supposed to be about the award but I'd like to add to my rant
> 
> I was talking to a mechanic friend today who's had a college apprentice for over a year now, a very talented mechanic at 17 who from what I was told excels at the practical stuff and is very keen. Unfortunately, this lad was at risk of not passing further in his apprenticeship because he didn't have the correct piece of paper that said he could do Maths since he hadn't passed with a C grade in school, so they make you do it all again in college on the side. Now, this kid wasn't good at maths, he wasn't an academic at all so he struggled the whole way through this qualification to try and achieve his C grade despite the mechanic and even the college tutors saying it wasn't _really_ necessary for the job as there really isn't much in the way of mathematics that isn't already sorted out for you on a chart or something. He managed to scrape a C grade in the end after a re-sit but I do find it really daft that the college was going to halt this boy's further education and apprenticeship just because he couldn't do something that wasn't really relevant to the course, all because the government thinks everyone in the country should have a C in Mathematics minimum. Surely if everyone's got a C in mathematics that just makes it a worthless grade anyway?
> 
> ...



I can do maths - I am actually reasonably good at it - up to calculus, partial fractions and all that nonsense. What I can't do, apparently, is calculate the size of a pair of doors for a bathroom cabinet. Doors #1 were 12mm too narrow. Doors #2 are currently 8mm too wide. Sigh. How hard can it be - it's only adding up and taking away, ffs! Turns out being "clever" is in no way useful in the real world. Need to purchase a workshop calculator, which is just humiliating.


----------



## Bm101 (18 Aug 2019)

Next you'll be saying that complex mathematical calculations haven't been used for millenia by woodworkers whose experience of reading, writing and maths might be considered _basic_ by modern standards.
Divide and rule (at least its ancient Greek equivalent) seems to have been attributed to Phillip the 2 of Macedon. Never heard of him? Me neither till 5 minutes ago. I googled the term. Turns out he was Alexander the Great's old man. 300 bc. I have heard of _that_ fella. But that term is about subjugating the people. We are talking about wood.

Could be though that divide and rule is a measuring mantra. Dividers, a straight edge (your ruler) and a marker. All of a sudden you take measuring out of the equation in terms of maths and you are back to transferring marks. Other than bad technique or lack of knowledge it strikes me that every bad mistake I have made is due to trying to measure not transfer a mark.
And yeh. I know I'm just a shed boy. I don't do this for a living. I'm not comparing my experience to you 24/7 kitchen fitters out there. Just saying.

Otherwise how did I make these precision parts (gears for the Radial Motion Wing Diffuser for my MDF spaceship) just with my Moore and Wright dividers, a steel rule and a pencil. Right?!?


----------



## Jacob (18 Aug 2019)

Bm101":26sgw42p said:


> ...
> Could be though that divide and rule is a measuring mantra. Dividers, a straight edge (your ruler) and a marker. All of a sudden you take measuring out of the equation in terms of maths and you are back to transferring marks. Other than bad technique or lack of knowledge it strikes me that every bad mistake I have made is due to trying to measure not transfer a mark.


Spot on. Get free of the tape measure as soon as you can. Once you've set up your rods or other form of full size layout you don't need it, you are on auto pilot.


----------



## Jacob (18 Aug 2019)

Trainee neophyte":st1p2u65 said:


> ...
> I can do maths - I am actually reasonably good at it


That's your problem - it's a sledge hammer to crack a nut


> ... What I can't do, apparently, is calculate the size of a pair of doors for a bathroom cabinet. ..... Need to purchase a workshop calculator, which is just humiliating.


No you don't. You need to learn basic layout skills and how to work from a rod. No calculations involved.
Very traditional, very efficient.
I do it on lengths of white MFC shelving. First mark your opening, then the clearance gaps, then the width of stiles, then mark centre with dividers.. and so on.
Then take the marks off by laying on the workpieces all marked up face and edge all equal and opposite - strike up pencil marks with a little set square, then mark all round with a square. etc
I didn't know how to do it even after years of reading mags, which is in principle why I dumped the huge bundle I'd accumulated and never read another one in 35 years. They are all rubbish.


----------



## Bm101 (18 Aug 2019)

Are you not even going to mention the MDF spaceship Jacob? 
Go onnnnn.... someone want's to say what those bits are for... (hammer)


----------



## Jacob (18 Aug 2019)

Bm101":rknctzj3 said:


> Are you not even going to mention the MDF spaceship Jacob?
> Go onnnnn.... someone want's to say what those bits are for... (hammer)


Er - not quite with you there? Tell me more!
PS Oh I see the mysterious objects in your post! Where is it now - on the way to Mars? :lol: 
I re-use the rods - rub out the old marks etc. Sometimes last for years.
PS shop and kitchen fitters used to use rods - I was told all about it by an old chap working in department stores - they'd clear the floor/wall space and roll out a full size drawing and take all marks from that and roll it up again.
Boat builders do it, sail makes do it in sail lofts, steel yards used to do full size layouts with on the floor with chalk lines etc.
Builders do - ancient greeks do it in temples - there are scratch mark layouts found on floors. Everybody was doin it, nobody measured anything or worked anything out on the back of an envelope!


----------



## doctor Bob (18 Aug 2019)

Bm101":3tqop9ej said:


> Otherwise how did I make these precision parts (gears for the Radial Motion Wing Diffuser for my MDF spaceship) just with my Moore and Wright dividers, a steel rule and a pencil. Right?!?



A spaceship you say, tell me more. I started with a birch ply teleporter, never thought of space travel?
Any idea how to make the warp thrusters, may need external MDF.


----------



## Peter Sefton (19 Aug 2019)

Rods will always be used in hand woodworking but many more machine based workshops will use measurement far more. Machines with flips fences on measuring tapes and digital readouts rely on accurate cutting lists, often taken from scale drawings. 

We use rods far more for curved or angled work if hand drawn, or some students will work off their lap top drawing packages whilst production shops may send the drawings to the CNC.

I think they call it progress.... 

Cheers

Peter


----------



## Peter Sefton (19 Aug 2019)

woodbloke66":1jgmjrrl said:


> Ttrees":1jgmjrrl said:
> 
> 
> > From above comments mentioned here, I was really expecting to find more discussion about other things possibly missing from the internet like...
> ...



Most of our students do undertake the business module in the third term but some students have no intention of going into business or have just taken early retirement from running their own businesses, and now just want to enjoy woodworking.

I feel anyone who is considering self employment or working in a small craft workshop should have a good and clear understanding running a business. It is such a different skill to making but critical to survival.

I spent Friday night and a fair proportion of yesterday at CCD, again a very good show. Meeting up with past students now in business and taking our incoming students to see what can be achieved. 

We had six past students work on display, so nice to see others enjoying the creative side of woodworking and drumming up business for the economy.

Cheers Peter 

Cheers

Peter


----------



## Jacob (19 Aug 2019)

Peter Sefton":1bd93820 said:


> Rods will always be used in hand woodworking but many more machine based workshops will use measurement far more. Machines with flips fences on measuring tapes and digital readouts rely on accurate cutting lists, often taken from scale drawings. .......


Yes I do the same but only for very simple stuff. But the slightest level of complexity and you have to revert to 100% marking up from a rod, unless you have CNC machinery or something approaching. Even a glazing bar with say 4 mortices equally spaced (different sizes for stiles and glazing bars) would be difficult with flip fences. You could cut the lengths OK but there'd be some frantic setting up for the mortice machine. Much easier to do it by eye from marks.
I learned this with sash windows. A multi paned sash will have 30 or more components with very few repeats. The four rails of the lights are each different and the bottom one has a bevel. They also have to fit the box frame which has a bevel on the cill. Also the objective is to get all 12 (or more) panes of glass exactly the same size. And there are clearance gaps all over the place. Then you have to repeat this if you are doing a set.
Trying to work that out on paper would be fiendishly difficult. Sketchup could do it but you still have to transfer 100s of marks to the workpiece, unless you could CNC it somehow. 
Doing it on a rod is the answer and virtually eliminates mistakes. You could confidently cut the glass as a first operation (if you really wanted to!) knowing that it will fit perfectly even weeks later when the rest of the stuff has been put together, and so on.
It's a much neglected skill - it doesn't feature much even in the old books, as it was amongst the first things you'd learn, like sharpening, and was taken for granted.
A simple rod is the answer to Trainee Neophyte's simple problem. A calculator would just make it harder and more error prone. Sketchup would work it out but you'd still have to transfer marks by hand somehow.


----------



## Jacob (19 Aug 2019)

Peter Sefton":7wgneniv said:


> ...
> We use rods far more for curved or angled work if hand drawn, or some students will work off their lap top drawing packages whilst production shops may send the drawings to the CNC.
> 
> I think they call it progress....
> ...


I call it de-skilling; dependency on expensive and elaborate technology with sacrifice of basic skills. OK for mass production but a huge handicap for the small operator, one-off maker, fitter etc.
I assume the 'Celebration of Craftsmanship' products rely not on automated machine production but on hands-on craftsmanship - or is that really just a thing of the past?


----------



## woodbloke66 (19 Aug 2019)

Peter Sefton":2mmwff6t said:


> Most of our students do undertake the business module in the third term but some students have no intention of going into business or have just taken early retirement from running their own businesses, and now just want to enjoy woodworking.
> 
> I feel anyone who is considering self employment or working in a small craft workshop _should have a good and clear understanding running a business. It is such a different skill to making but critical to survival._
> 
> Peter


That's fair enough Peter for those who have no wish to pursue the business aspect, but as I said, it's absolutely critical that anyone going into woodmangling with a view to making a living out of it *must*, of necessity, know how to go about running a business. So often I've heard of keen woodworkers who seem to approach the craft through rose tinted specs and then bump up against a very hard dose of reality when they can't make ends meet or at least show any sort of a profit to enable them to continue. This I feel is where Alan Peters book is so good because reading it makes you really think hard about the business aspect. That said, it was published many years ago and things have moved on, principally with the use of this new fangled t'interweb thingie, but the basic precepts contained in the book are still very much current - Rob


----------



## Woody2Shoes (19 Aug 2019)

Went to see the exhibition yesterday - great location and organisation, besides amazing works - and then (after a good lunch) stopped off at the Wilson museum to see some earlier examples of fine furniture.

An excellent day out and highly recommended.

https://www.celebrationofcraftsmanship.com/about
https://www.cheltenhammuseum.org.uk/col ... ollection/


----------



## Steve Maskery (23 Aug 2019)

I went down today with my mate Stuart. There is some astonishing work there (as well as a couple of pieces that make me look competent and a couple of pieces that make your eyes go funny). I was delighted to see a David Savage chair there. Absolutely beautiful. Apparently the business is being continued by some of his tutors. Excellent.

The other thing that struck me was how reasonable some of the prices were. Yes, some seemed "optimistic", shall we say, but far more were surprisingly sensible. I spoke to one maker who said, "To be honest I hadn't really given the price much thought". Oops.

Nearly six hours driving (several holdups, especially on the way home), but worth it.

So now, after having been awake (involuntarily) since 4am, I'm going to have a bath and an early night.


----------



## rafezetter (23 Aug 2019)

Jacob":23edlz41 said:


> Trevanion":23edlz41 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



Story sticks.

Egyptians used them for hundreds of years, as did shipwrights - worked then for the "uneducated" masses - what's so different now?

I read an article a few years back from a woodworker who has all but stopped using a tapemeasure altogether for all but the initial measurements on a stick.

Edit - ahh it' all been said, but I'll leave it here anyway.

(Steve.. Why didn't you stay at Eriks?)


----------



## Trainee neophyte (23 Aug 2019)

Gentlemen, (and ladies, and the other 63 genders if appropriate), thank you for you advice re rods, storyboards etc. I have learned more in 3 months on this site than 40 years of bodging on my own. I didn't even know what a shooting board was until the day I signed up here.

I know I am an embarrassment to people who know (I have been looking in on Jacob's blind dovetail post - wow!), but I hope to stand on the shoulders of greatness, as it were, to lever myself up to a level that won't bring utter shame to all involved. Just be gentle with my cackhandedness in the meantime, and don't look at the bathroom cabinet - doors now made, <<almost>> millimeter perfect. I will even post a picture once it is assembled, as a salutary lesson in how not to make furniture.


----------



## Jacob (24 Aug 2019)

Trainee neophyte":vrkuffnm said:


> Gentlemen, (and ladies, and the other 63 genders if appropriate), thank you for you advice re rods, storyboards etc. I have learned more in 3 months on this site than 40 years of bodging on my own. I didn't even know what a shooting board was until the day I signed up here.
> 
> I know I am an embarrassment to people who know (I have been looking in on Jacob's blind dovetail post - wow!), but I hope to stand on the shoulders of greatness, as it were, to lever myself up to a level that won't bring utter shame to all involved. Just be gentle with my cackhandedness in the meantime, and don't look at the bathroom cabinet - doors now made, <<almost>> millimeter perfect. I will even post a picture once it is assembled, as a salutary lesson in how not to make furniture.


 :lol: 
Don't worry about it - anybody on here who is any good at anything started out being utterly [email protected] at it. Just a fact of life.
Incidentally the reason why I set up a DT project for myself was because I thought I was [email protected] at it. Still am, but improving!
Being taught about the rod was for me the biggest single revelation about how to do woodwork. I knew nothing about it before. Except of course we did geometry at school but it was always a bit abstract and not much about problem solving, a useful basic skill.
The nearest equivalent feeling was when I first got my hands on a computer (Mac LC 475)


----------



## Trainee neophyte (24 Aug 2019)

Jacob":2tr3027c said:


> Trainee neophyte":2tr3027c said:
> 
> 
> > Gentlemen, (and ladies, and the other 63 genders if appropriate), thank you for you advice re rods, storyboards etc. I have learned more in 3 months on this site than 40 years of bodging on my own. I didn't even know what a shooting board was until the day I signed up here.
> ...



It is obvious, now you have pointed it out: measure twice, cut once, but make a rod, and never measure again seems even more sensible. I've had a quick Google, and I am now an expert in making fishing rods - need to reword my search terms, methinks.


----------



## Jacob (24 Aug 2019)

Trainee neophyte":39gxr0qi said:


> .......
> It is obvious, now you have pointed it out: measure twice, cut once, but make a rod, and never measure again seems even more sensible.


That's it, though don't need to be too purist about it - still use the tape as necessary!


> I've had a quick Google, and I am now an expert in making fishing rods - need to reword my search terms, methinks.


Comes up as "story board, story stick" etc though there's not a lot of info and it can be confusing. 
"Story stick" as far as I'm concerned means the vertical rod for a staircase (i.e. story height) taken from floor level _at foot of stairs, _to floor level at head. Foot not necessarily at same floor level as floor directly below the head, as there may be a bit of a slope. Having got that you divide it with, guess what, _dividers_, into equal 'risings' - though you will need to do a bit of a calc first to make sure it fits building regs.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (24 Aug 2019)

Rods/story sticks become less mysterious when you think of them simply as one-dimensional templates (or templets as some - mostly older geezers than I - prefer) .....

I think that the boatbuilders/builders template-making technique using sticks is a little different - the stick being called a "joggle stick" and used (mutiple times) to make two measurements at once (range and bearing if you like) for each given point on the curve being templated.

http://www.builderbill-diy-help.com/joggle-stick.html

At the show, I did discover that some of the works on display had been made using CNC techniques and/or complex routing jigs - this did not spoil my enjoyment of them. Use of these methods probably sped up the construction process considerably - probably, in some cases, going from thousands of person-hours to hundreds I imagine - making some things practicable which otherwise might not be.

Cheers, W2S


----------



## Trainee neophyte (24 Aug 2019)

Joggle stick - another new concept for me, but by God that's clever. So obvious, now I've seen it. I shall make one today, and then try and fit a shelf somewhere odd, just because. (Actually, it's 40° today, so I may go to the beach instead. But spiritually, I will be fitting a randomly shaped shelf).


----------



## Jacob (24 Aug 2019)

Woody2Shoes":5y8lk4rb said:


> .....
> At the show, I did discover that some of the works on display had been made using CNC techniques and/or complex routing jigs - this did not spoil my enjoyment of them. Use of these methods probably sped up the construction process considerably - probably, in some cases, going from thousands of person-hours to hundreds I imagine - making some things practicable which otherwise might not be.
> 
> Cheers, W2S


I have my doubts. 
I think a lot of people are reduced to using calculators, computers, Sketchup, CAD etc simply because they don't know how to do things the easy/traditional way. Gadgetry gone extreme!
Automated processes obviously benefit but not necessarily the one-off maker or small operator.


----------



## AndyT (24 Aug 2019)

Jacob":3psaiuza said:


> Woody2Shoes":3psaiuza said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



Jacob's point could easily apply for furniture made to established patterns, but here's my favourite counter example. It's a piece of furniture made using CNC machined plywood to come up with a design which would be quite impossible by ordinary methods.

I think it's a really clever, witty design, made with a real appreciation of the material and the construction.

You can see it at the V and A museum.







http://m.vam.ac.uk/item/O121769/cindere ... en-jeroen/


----------



## Jacob (24 Aug 2019)

AndyT":8zoorvwc said:


> Jacob":8zoorvwc said:
> 
> 
> > Woody2Shoes":8zoorvwc said:
> ...


Except it's ugly, useless, presumably very expensive, dependent on having some spectacularly expensive machinery, involves no craft skills at all. Good as a demo of what you can do with high tech, but the point is most stuff being made is low tech, hand made even.
So you can do weird things with CNC etc but sometimes you have to ask why bother? :lol:


----------



## Trevanion (24 Aug 2019)

Jacob":2ul9l2fq said:


> So you can do weird things with CNC etc but sometimes you have to ask why bother? :lol:



If everyone had followed your philosophy of "why bother" and of doing things absolutely traditionally and stubbornly not accepting change we'd still be banging stones on trees and calling each other Ug.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (24 Aug 2019)

Jacob - I understand that children are still (for the time being) taught handwriting - even though most of us communicate nowadays by physical/virtual keyboard or even (heaven forfend) speech (electronically mediated or otherwise).

We're all as free as we ever were to express ourselves (whether some think we're making/talking/writing garbage or not) but we are increasingly spoiled for choice of tools with which to do it! 8) 

Cheers, W2S


----------



## Jacob (24 Aug 2019)

Trevanion":1h4x7q0n said:


> Jacob":1h4x7q0n said:
> 
> 
> > So you can do weird things with CNC etc but sometimes you have to ask why bother? :lol:
> ...


Not quite saying that am I? 
I'm into making things traditionally, I also buy stuff from IKEA. The boundaries get confused perhaps.
Does "Celebration of Craftsmanship" celebrate the designers and makers of CNC machines and computers? They are the ones doing the craft work, enabling the users do less.


----------



## woodbloke66 (24 Aug 2019)

Jacob":1y8m21ps said:


> Does "Celebration of Craftsmanship" celebrate the designers and makers of CNC machines and computers? They are the ones doing the craft work, enabling the users do less.


I think there's something here. There's nowt wrong with anyone using a CNC machine but to me it seems to be moving away from actual 'hands on' woodworking towards wood engineering, for example a certain well known box maker in Belfast has started to churn his stuff out (for Linley I think?) using a CNC machine. I used to follow what he was up to on InstaG, but since so much of his output is CNC'd it no longer interests me.

That said, there are incredible things that can be done using CNC techniques which would be well nigh impossible by traditional methods. Another chap on InstaG, this time in West London had a line of identical elliptical, fairly deep, bowls. When I queried how he'd done it (as it would be almost impossible to do on a standard lathe) the answer became apparent...he has a CNC machine - Rob


----------



## topchippytom (24 Aug 2019)

Looks a good show


----------



## Jacob (24 Aug 2019)

woodbloke66":3dzv569h said:


> Jacob":3dzv569h said:
> 
> 
> > Does "Celebration of Craftsmanship" celebrate the designers and makers of CNC machines and computers? They are the ones doing the craft work, enabling the users do less.
> ...


I agree. "Celebration of Craftsmanship" perhaps should mean what it says; not "Celebration of CNC" or "Celebration of Computer aided design and manufacture". I'd ban it - but have a separate show by all means, I've nothing against it.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (25 Aug 2019)

Jacob":3vv6s11n said:


> woodbloke66":3vv6s11n said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3vv6s11n said:
> ...



Jacob - just to be clear - the exhibition wasn't called "Celebration of Hand-Craftsmanship-Using-Only-Tools-Invented-Prior-To-The-Industrial-Revolution"!
:wink:


----------



## Jacob (25 Aug 2019)

Woody2Shoes":lekm2hq2 said:


> Jacob":lekm2hq2 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbloke66":lekm2hq2 said:
> ...


"Craftsmanship" loosely implies "hand made, using hand and eye skills, etc", though the boundaries aren't clear. Otherwise IKEA should have a stall and they'd win all the prizes!


----------



## woodbloke66 (25 Aug 2019)

Jacob":34eo0ld0 said:


> "Craftsmanship" loosely implies "hand made, using hand and eye skills, etc", though the boundaries aren't clear. Otherwise IKEA should have a stall and they'd win all the prizes!


Yup, it's the old chestnut of the 'workmanship of risk' vs 'the workmanship of certainty' as Prof. David Pye was at pains to explain in his book. CNC work is in itself highly skilled, but it's a programmers skill rather than a woodworkers, so in CNC work the element of risk of a successful outcome is zero (there is no risk) whilst the workmanship of certainty of achieving a successful outcome is 100%. Once the programme is installed, tested and proven, a chimp simply presses 'go' to achieve a successful outcome.
IKEA and many other manufacturers like them use a huge range of technologies to lower the workmanship of risk, often at the expense of producing a decent product (which they do sometimes, surprisingly)- Rob


----------



## Steve Maskery (25 Aug 2019)

I think that is a bit harsh, Rob.

Back in the 80s I used to write post-processors for a CADCAM package that drove CNC machinery. All the people I ever met who operated these machines were skilled people and certainly would not like being called chimps.

A CNC machine in woodwork can do things that it would be difficult or even practically impossible to do by hand. There were door-panel examples of that at Cheltenham.

The argument, it seems to me, should be whether or not the end result is beautiful. It's no use producing something complex and flawless (from a shaping point of view) if it looks hideous, and that of course, is in the eye of the beholder.

I bet, 50 years ago, there were people making the same arguments about that new-fangled thing that everybody is going on about, what is it called, ah yes, I remember, the router.


----------



## woodbloke66 (25 Aug 2019)

Steve Maskery":2c2myehk said:


> I think that is a bit harsh, Rob.
> 
> Back in the 80s I used to write post-processors for a CADCAM package that drove CNC machinery. All the people I ever met who operated these machines were skilled people and certainly would not like being called chimps.
> 
> ...


You're probably right Steve and I apologise. My point that I was attempting to make (poorly) is that the skill is in the programming and once that has been achieved, tried and tested then a relatively unskilled operator could, let's say, on the (IKEA) factory floor, operate the CNC machinery to produce identical products 'ad infinitum'

I did say earlier in the thread (if you'd care to peruse back) that CNC machining can produce objects that are virtually impossible to produce by conventional means (ie identical elliptical bowls), but I do agree with your last statement.."._..should be whether or not the end result is beautiful. It's no use producing something complex and flawless (from a shaping point of view) if it looks hideous, and that of course, is in the eye of the beholder._"

I'd forget all about the router as well, definitely 'old skool' now, but what about this new fangled Festool Domino jobbie? It'll never catch on! :lol: - Rob


----------



## Trevanion (25 Aug 2019)

I worked alongside a massive 5-axis Maka CNC machine for a few months, £250,000 worth of kit by the time you've bought the machine, programs and tooling. The machine itself was excellent and you could knock out staircases all day every day if you really wanted to, but it didn't do that. The problem wasn't with the machine but the operator who was the boss of the company, he didn't really know a lot about computers or programming so he was really limiting himself and his company by being the sole operator of this machine. He never really worked in more than the 3 X-Y-Z axis whilst this machine could do very complex work in 5-axis no problem, it could do stuff that would be very difficult to replicate with standard machines or even by hand. The programs he wrote usually had some kind of error in them, I remember the machine was moulding handrails once and it would always without fail take a big gouge out of the handrail at the last 2 inches of the cut. He would've been better off getting young apprentice who had grown up with computers and was proficient in that kind of work through school and then send him off on a Maka CNC course to learn everything he could, come back and run the machine properly and far more efficiently.

So there is a lot of skill required for CNC woodworking, it's just a different skill-set than pushing a hand plane or chopping a mortice.

The first woodworking machines were actually developed for prisoners in the late 1700s to be able to hopefully bring them up to the standard of hand craftsmen of the time without the years and years of intense training and hand tool practice. Within a couple of years when the teething issues had been sorted these "unskilled" prisoners were producing work that far outclassed most craftsmen at the time.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (25 Aug 2019)

The exhibition was showcasing both skills in construction and in design. IKEA should quite rightly hold its head high in terms of the quality of design (in terms of design for manufacture as well as the intrinsic qualities of the product itself and yes, construction too) of some of its products. It's easy (if not Jacobesque) to be dismissive. Cheers, W2S 8)


----------



## Yojevol (25 Aug 2019)

I had the pleasure of going along to the exhibition again this year. I am fortunate in that I live nearby and can get there most years.
Betty Norbury started it 25 years ago and my first visit was in 1998. I've been most years and have saved the catalogues.
Betty's original concept was and remains, essentially a showcase for professional designers/makers in as much variety as possible. She needed a good title and CofC was an inspiration. She a also needed to attract two classes of the public, (a) people with an appreciation of excellence and funds available should they be tempted, and (b) Joe Public to pay an entrance fee to cover running costs. The former is achieved by an invitation only evening on the opening Friday. They get first choice.
It is interesting that the "and D" didn't appear in the title until about 2003 or 4 (l don't have the 2003 catalogue).
In thinking about the nature of this show I had a browse through some of the early catalogues. Compared with today's, exhibits are fairly simple with much Arts & Crafts influence evident. Craftsmanship was excellent of course.
About 5 or 6 years ago I remember being quite bored with little to attract me from a design point of view. I missed a couple of years but since then things have improved dramatically. I believe this due to CAD and CNC usage. I can recall several cabinet doors with repetitive patterns that would be difficult to achieve with conventional machine tools, let alone by hand. But behind the doors there is a wealth of superb craftsmanship in the making the cabinet.
Craftsmen have always used the technology available to them. I watched a documentary the other day on how the Egyptians built the pyramids using copper chisels........
So we shouldn't decry the use of the tools available. They are mostly being used by professionals who are just trying to make a living and getting a great deal of satisfaction out of it.
It's a great exhibition. It has a great variety of items, most of which do not rely on CNC. Most visitors, invitees or fare paying passengers, go and admire the design aspects; not worrying about how it was made. A fair number, like me, admire the craftsmanship. I'm the one down on my knees looking at the table structure or surreptitiously pulling a drawer out to admire the dovetails and sweet motion.

Here's looking forward to next year's Celebration
Brian


----------



## Jacob (25 Aug 2019)

Yojevol":k9t7v5if said:


> I had the pleasure of going along to the exhibition again this year. I am fortunate in that I live nearby and can get there most years.
> Betty Norbury started it 25 years ago and my first visit was in 1998. I've been most years and have saved the catalogues.
> Betty's original concept was and remains, essentially a showcase for professional designers/makers in as much variety as possible. .....


If that was so then why the concentration on this very minor and specialised range of goods; luxury high price arts/crafts woodwork, stylistically "post modern"? There is a lot more stuff being designed/made out there!


----------



## Yojevol (25 Aug 2019)

Jacob":1etss4e4 said:


> Yojevol":1etss4e4 said:
> 
> 
> > I had the pleasure of going along to the exhibition again this year. I am fortunate in that I live nearby and can get there most years.
> ...


She identified her market and the present organiser has stuck with a successful concept. There is limited floor space at the location so there is a limit on the number of exhibits.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (26 Aug 2019)

Yojevol":klmotp3e said:


> ........
> So we shouldn't decry the use of the tools available. They are mostly being used by professionals who are just trying to make a living and getting a great deal of satisfaction out of it.
> It's a great exhibition. It has a great variety of items, most of which do not rely on CNC. Most visitors, invitees or fare paying passengers, go and admire the design aspects; not worrying about how it was made. A fair number, like me, admire the craftsmanship. I'm the one down on my knees looking at the table structure or surreptitiously pulling a drawer out to admire the dovetails and sweet motion.
> 
> ...



All of the above, with jingly bells on! =D> 

Mrs W2S - like most 'lay-people' - has little idea of the practicalities, and therefore the huge number of person-hours that go into some of these things, and thus the necessarily high prices. She enjoyed the visual and tangible pleasure to be got from some of the exhibits - and the simple 'fun' of the rocket for example, as well as talking to some of the makers. She would have been interested to learn a bit more about the construction methods and the thinking behind some of the design/construction details. If there were space and time available to do a little more of this kind of 'education' I think all would benefit.


----------



## Yojevol (26 Aug 2019)

> She would have been interested to learn a bit more about the construction methods and the thinking behind some of the design/construction details. If there were space and time available to do a little more of this kind of 'education' I think all would benefit.


Perhaps the most significant development this year is the formal presence of no less than 5 Furniture making schools. The implication being "if you want to know more about all this, come and talk to us"
Brian


----------



## Doug B (1 Sep 2019)

Popped along to the exhibition on Bank holiday Monday, it’s the seventh time I’ve been in the last ten years & it was certainly one of the better ones I’ve attended.

There was some wonderful work on display, not all to my taste but it was good to see the general standard of workmanship was as good as I’d seen there.

This was a drawer unit my good mate Jon had entered, he also had a table & a stool but for some reason my iPad won’t let me upload more than one photo at the minute :evil: 







My phones camera definitely doesn’t do the piece justice.

There was some CNC’d work there but it not as much as I’d expected overall I was impressed enough by what I saw to do the 260 mile round trip next year as it’s always inspiring to see quality work up close, plus a curry at Spice Lodge is the cherry on top.


----------

