# Door Locks



## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

I'm looking into getting some mortice locks for the new workshop door - and had sort of settled on a Chubb 3G110 - which is a high security version of their normal locks. But looking around today seem to be coming across locks that are referred to as Eurospec - Google = zero. 

Anyone shed any light on what a Eurospec lock is?

Also considering the Chubbs are around £75 each - is it really worth getting one - admittedly the locks on the house doors are all Chubbs - or just get one that is BS whatever (v2007 I think) compliant? Ones by Era for example are 1/3 of the price.

(It's not like Johnny asbo is going to know a Banham from a Chubb - Professional burglars might.)


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## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

Just done a bit of Googling and there is a well known website that hosts videos and the nbr of videos that show 5 lever deadlocks (apparently BS) picked in <30 with what look like home made implements in some cases is rather eye opening.

I think I might have to give the Era locks a miss and start looking at far more secure ones.


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## TrimTheKing (10 Mar 2010)

Look on that website for 'bump keys' for your own lock type. Frightening! :shock:

The locks on my house are all some of the most advanced out there (according to the security company we had out to survey the security system when we bought the house). That video site shows one of my locks being opened inside 5 secs with a bump key!!!


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## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

TrimTheKing":16nvhn7l said:


> Look on that website for 'bump keys' for your own lock type. Frightening! :shock:
> 
> The locks on my house are all some of the most advanced out there (according to the security company we had out to survey the security system when we bought the house). That video site shows one of my locks being opened inside 5 secs with a bump key!!!



This is a good site - general info,

http://www.larkhallservices.co.uk/locks ... dDonts.asp

Just spoke to the guy and the 3G110 whilst not insurance approved - due to the bolt throw not quite being 20mm as required by BSxxxx:2007, is as about as unpickable as it gets.

Also the rim cylinder that I was thinking of Kabba - dimpled keys - the above chap (rang him for a bit of advice) , also about as un-pickable as it gets. 

Have to have a quick check to see if that video site has a video picking them?


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## TrimTheKing (10 Mar 2010)

Cool, will have a look at that, cheers.

Suppose the option if they're not insurance approved is to have dual locks on your house, one which is approved and then the actual safe one


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## Mike.C (10 Mar 2010)

Dib's have you ever considered biometric (fingerprint and iris) or electronic locks? The cost has come right down and all of them can be wired into your house alarm, which means if you have an alarm such as ADT a signal can be sent to them and the police called before the thief even knows he has been sussed. On top of that a hidden camera can also take a picture of the scumbag which is shown in the offices of your alarm company.

If this is all to much hassle, a simple iris scan can be had for a couple of hundred pounds. The good thing about most of these locks are there is no visible lock to pick.

Primus locks are suppose to be good. Some say unpickable and unbumpable, and where I do not necessarily believe that, they have got a good name.

Cheers

Mike


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## Setch (10 Mar 2010)

How much do you want to spend?

Ignore the videos of people picking mortice locks - these are either lock sport enthusiasts who have invested shed loads of time in refining their skills to do this (no thief is going to have the dedication or intellect to do the same) or people who have deliberately staged the video to either impress their internet freinds, or try to sell their products. Realistically, no criminal is going to be picking a curtained mortice lock.

The Chubb 3G110 is a very cool lock, but not BS:3621 approved, and extremely expensive. You would be better off buying a 3G114E, which is half the price, BS: 3621 rated, and was highly placed in the Which consumer test of mortice locks a few years back, IIRC it came in second to the Union 2134E, which is also a good choice, and is also sold under the Chubb brand as the 3U114E (again, IIRC). The Era Fortress locks are widely acknowledged as being difficult to pick by anyone who actually knows their stuff, and I would happily have one on my door. I repeat my point about the videos being either staged, or the result of years of dedicated practice, hours of specific practice to each different make and model of lock, and often, hundreds of pounds of specialised tools.

Whilst bump keys are a genuine issue, and there are videos of everything under the sun being bumped, this is a moot point if you have a wooden door with a lever mortice lock fitted to it. You'll also find a lot of videos posted by people selling bump keys... do your own working to find the connection! Kaba locks are excellent, but the choice of cylinder is not the defining characteristic of the lock - it's what the cylinder opperates when it is turned. I have seen kaba cylinders fitted to 30 year old night latches which can be opened in 5 seconds with some flexible plastic.

You are vanishingly unlikely to be targetted by somebody who will try to pick their way into your workshop, but quite likely to be the target of forced entry. You are on the right track with your (awesome!) door, extend this to the frame, and it's connection to the walls, and you'll be fine with whatever BS:3621 deadlocks you pick. I'd favour the Era Fortress as best value for money, but the Chubb just strikes me as better quality, and easier to fit.

For the record, I have been working as a locksmith for the last three and a half years, and have had to open and install most of the locks discussed, so I'm not just speaking out of my proverbial 

**Edit**

Eurospec is a lock manufacturer, they make their products in the far east, and are widely used on new builds and developments because they are inexpensive and experienced in suppliying large contractors, architects etc. They're for the most part a bit cheap and cheerful, though not rubbish.


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## big soft moose (10 Mar 2010)

we do need to keeep a sense of perspective tho - its a workshop not a nuclear weapons storage facility - the trouble with instally the really hi tech kit is that

a) it might stop little johnny scrote picking the lock , but it also comunicates to the proffesional that there must be valuables within worth that level of security - and you can't ever keep the pros out

and b) there is more to go wrong and keep you out by accident

personally i'd reckon that if you've got two chubbs top and bottom, and outward opening door with protected hinges, and an alarm panel withg klaxon and smoak cloak inside then thats good enough to keep the local low lifes out and to convince the insurers that you took "reasonable precautions" if you get done by someone who can defeat all of the above.


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## Setch (10 Mar 2010)

Exactly what Moose said - it's common sense, not high security that's called for.

IMO biometrics, Iris, Fprint etc are an unknown quantity, and too new for me to put any faith in. I've heard of both being spoofed with printed images of eyes or fingerprints, and am not anware of any which is insurance approved or BS rated.


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## Mike.C (10 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":3knauw6d said:


> we do need to keeep a sense of perspective tho - its a workshop not a nuclear weapons storage facility - the trouble with instally the really hi tech kit is that
> 
> a) it might stop little johnny scrote picking the lock , but it also comunicates to the proffesional that there must be valuables within worth that level of security - and you can't ever keep the pros out
> 
> ...



I beg your pardon, I missed the _*"Workshop Door"*_ (things on my mind wouldn't you know) in his first sentence, and I though he was talking about his house  

Having said that if someone completely emptied my workshop whist I was on holiday, in hospital, or kept away from home for any other reason I would be near on £20,000 down and I would have wished that I had taken notice and protected the building with the best security available.
There was a time not so long ago when burglar alarms were so new and expensive that only business's (or nuclear facilities :lol: ) used them, but now they are fitted everywhere. 
In the very near future biometric's are going to become part of everyday life, and so I do not see the problem. Even some laptops are beginning to use finger or iris print verification to start them up, so if the technology is here why not use it? You do not need to own a nuclear storage facility to want to protect it.

You yourself said to fit chubbs on the top and bottom of a door, fit a burglar alarm with a klaxon, smoke unit and protected hinges, so why is this so different from my view, isn't it also going to show the pro that you have lots of expensive stuff inside? How is a little unassuming device beside the door going to make any difference?

In reality how is a professional going to see what security the normal back garden workshop has? Most people have some sort of fence or wall etc so that joe public cannot see into the back garden from the street, so unless you have invited the pro onto your property for some other reason how is he going to see your workshop, and if you have invited him your mixing with the wrong people.:lol:

Weighing everything up I would rather go over the top and keep my property, so IMHO my sense of prospective is just fine. Of course this is just my point of view and others will obviously think that you can protect your property for far less. 

Cheers

Mike


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## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

*Mike* - Cheers, whilst Hi-Tech is good, a lot of them seem to be reliant on Euro cylinders- which seem a bit pants. I'm much more a fan of cm's of hardened steel than electronics. :lol:

*Setch* - Whilst I still want to buy a 911 at some point in life, preferably whilst petrol is affordable - I also don't want to skimp. We already have 3G110's in external doors in the house, so aren't massively bothered as I've don't pay retail for most stuff (barring groceries, etc.)

The reason I was going for the 3G110 is that it's a detainer version and from chats with a few locksmiths a far more secure lock than the 3G114's. The only reason it isn't BS:3621 is that the bolt throw isn't a min of 20mm. In all other aspects I'm told the lock exceeds BS:3621. And since there isn't going to be any striker plates in the jamb - I'm not terribly fussed.

The cylinder lock I was thinking of was Chubb 4L67 or an Ingersoll SC71.

I appreciate most of the videos are from "sports enthusiasts" - but some of the tools are also readily available from the old tinternet, and it is a matter of time before such knowledge and in some cases rudimentary tools make their way to scumbags. Euro cylinders have been around for yrs and it's in the last several yrs that it's become common knowledge of how to snap them. As I said I suspect it will be similar for the rest - especially given the recession - look at bumping. If you underspec security on the assumption that the knowledge isn't widely circulated - it's not if, it's when you get done over.

*BSM* - yes it's a workshop and not a nuclear bunker - but even if my locks cost me £500 for the door, that's peanuts compared to the cost of the build\equipment going in and I'm confident that Johnny Scrote (or even Johnny Pro to be honest) isn't going to get in without a sheer fight on his hands.

Whilst at the same time - no outward appearance that the place contains anything worth stealing, nor of the security built in.

As for the insurers - most domestic policies don't pay anything over 1k for valuables in an outbuilding. So might as well work on that assumption. As for shopping round for quotes - due to the specifics of the property, most online quote engines konk out and display a message along the lines of "unable to quote please ring xxxxxxx" - usually due to the nbr of bedrooms.

*Edit: p.s. Setch can you pick a 3G110 assuming you had a decoder and how long would it take? Or would you try and drill it?*


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## Mike.C (10 Mar 2010)

Dib's wrote,

Mike - Cheers, whilst Hi-Tech is good, a lot of them seem to be reliant on Euro cylinders- which seem a bit pants. I'm much more a fan of cm's of hardened steel than electronics.

You obviously know a lot more about them then I do, so stear well clear of my above advice. My only thought about finger print technology was because our bank is starting to use it for our safe deposit box:lol:

Dib's wrote.

BSM - yes it's a workshop and not a nuclear bunker - but even if my locks cost me £500 for the door, that's peanuts compared to the cost of the build\equipment going in and I'm confident that Johnny Scrote (or even Johnny Pro to be honest) isn't going to get in without a sheer fight on his hands. 

Whilst at the same time - no outward appearance that the place contains anything worth stealing, nor of the security built in.

I agree, If you are spending many thousands on the contents of your workshop, why skimp when it comes to its protection. £500 is nothing to what most of us have spent on our hobbies, and you certainly cannot rely on the insurance companies to cough up for everything:wink: 

Good luck and lets hope you never need to claim.

Cheers

Mike


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## big soft moose (10 Mar 2010)

Mike.C":gy7xjqyg said:


> Having said that if someone completely emptied my workshop whist I was on holiday, in hospital, or kept away from home for any other reason I would be near on £20,000 down and I would have wished that I had taken notice and protected the building with the best security available.



presumably you have your 20ks worth of kit (and man thats high what have you got in there ???? ) insured - so if someone did make off with your full contents you'd get a nice big chque to reequip





Mike.C":gy7xjqyg said:


> In reality how is a professional going to see what security the normal back garden workshop has? Most people have some sort of fence or wall etc so that joe public cannot see into the back garden from the street, so unless you have invited the pro onto your property for some other reason how is he going to see your workshop, and if you have invited him your mixing with the wrong people.:lol:



the proffesional house breaker finds out when johny scrote tells him down the pub - "you know geezer we couldnt get in, tried da pry bar and everything, but fek man he has this fancy iris scan thing and everythink jus like on the telly, there mus be loadsa gud dung in there"

as to the other point having locks top and bottom is fairly low profile - and all the smoke cloak, klaxon, etc is inside the shop where johnny scrote cant see it - biometrics on the other hand require scanners on the outside of the door.

The other point is what are you going to do when johny scrote smashes the scanner in frustration - then you are locked out too until the expensive call out and repair are complete


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## Mike.C (10 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":2cuz0tck said:


> Mike.C":2cuz0tck said:
> 
> 
> > Having said that if someone completely emptied my workshop whist I was on holiday, in hospital, or kept away from home for any other reason I would be near on £20,000 down and I would have wished that I had taken notice and protected the building with the best security available.
> ...



Only about £12,000 or £13,000 is woodworking equipment the rest is car related tools, Snap On, Teng, etc.

As for them being insured, you try and find a company that will insure that lot as a hobby. You can get trade insurance which costs mega bucks, but not on a normal household policy. I have even tried getting a individual policy, but its a non stater. If you can find one I would be very very grateful, but I doubt you will. So if my shop was emptied I would not get a nice big cheque. The worshop is insured for £8,000 and the garage bleeding £2000, yet they are on the same alarm and only an internal door seperates them Luckily there is someone home most of the time, and I have good security.

Where my workshop is there is a 10 foot wall so I cannot see johny scrote seeing the shop let alone telling the pro.

Finally Dib's does not rate the biometrics so I would not go for that anyway, or not until it improves :wink: 

Cheers

Mike


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## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

Mike.C":30u5b5jb said:


> Only about £12,000 or £13,000 is woodworking equipment the rest is car related tools, Snap On, Teng, etc.
> 
> As for them being insured, you try and find a company that will insure that lot as a hobby. You can get trade insurance which costs mega bucks, but not on a normal household policy. I have even tried getting a individual policy, but its a non stater. If you can find one I would be very very grateful, but I doubt you will. So if my shop was emptied I would not get a nice big cheque. The worshop is insured for £8,000 and the garage bleeding £2000, yet they are on the same alarm and only an internal door seperates them Luckily there is someone home most of the time, and I have good security.
> 
> ...



At least you realise you are un-insured to some degree - I wonder how many hobbyists out there don't realise it.

As a house usually is far harder to get into - assuming multiple doors, almost always alarmed - an easy option would be for electronic locks, that are wired back to the house, for release. But only if you laid the trench for the cables and poured the concrete - i.e. cables can't just be pulled up.

Some of the newer alarms have transponder type fobs - for alarming and disarming the alarm. The same panels have relay outputs to drive other things - easy to have it deadbolt the door via solenoids. A failsafe springs to mind, in that what happens if the electrics\electronics fail. But the same is applicable if a high security lock fails.

Whilst I would sorely be tempted to go down the "no bloody locks on the door mate" route, I'm a little pressed for time at the mo.

Mike - if you want details of the panels, electronics I mentioned, we can discuss it via PM.


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## grafter (10 Mar 2010)

interesting thread - everybody want to keep their kit secure, personally, i would have thought that two mortice locks in the door, with hinge bolts should keep most tea leafs out.

the electronic stuff seems great however I would rather rely on hardened steel!!!

If the door is fairly well secured, there going to try other means to get in - windows, roof etc

does anybody chain there kit to ground anchors? would this be worth the effort?

finally on alarms, people don't seem to notice alarms anymore, fine if your in the house, but if your away will anyone say anything?


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## Setch (10 Mar 2010)

I have neither the tools nor experience to pick a 3G110 - but I'd be equally stuck picking any BS:3621 mortice lock. I can open them, but it's a tedious business, and not anything a burglar would consider doing - it takes too long, and makes too much noise. The tools to pick open BS:3621 mortice locks run to £300+ and in most cases are specific to individual models of lock. They're also incredibly difficult to explain to the police of you're not a trading locksmith 

The reason I recommended a BS mortice lock over the 110 is that pick resistance is a nonsense. Mr Burglar isn't going to invest the money or time required to pick a 110 *or* a 114E, and the 114E has a longer bolt throw and larger bolt. In a few years time, if your insurance company *finally* update their requirements, they may well specify that you have BS:3621 locks on all your external doors, and at this point you'll have to replace all the 110s, which will be expensive, and awkward, since the mortise for a 110 is significantly larger than anything else currently in production.

I don't really like the 4L67, it has a few too many plastic parts which tend to break or come off, which is a shame as it is an excellent cylinder, and very pick resistant. The SC71 is also very difficult to pick, but it isn't BS. That said, it is a tried and tested design and I have one on my door. 

That said, why do you want a nightlatch on the door? On a workshop I'd be tempted to fit a sashlock in the centre position, so I can easily latch (but not lock) the door as I go back and forwards, and don't need a key to open the door each time, unless I specifically lock it. With a nightlatch you're either opening it with a key each and everytime you enter, or leaving it to swing if it's on the latch.


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## grafter (10 Mar 2010)

setch:

with a BS sash lock in the middle of the door, is there much value in adding a further BS deadlock in the lower half of the door ? i suppose for another £25 whats to lose.


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## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

Setch":1my924u4 said:


> I have neither the tools nor experience to pick a 3G110 - but I'd be equally stuck picking any BS:3621 mortice lock. I can open them, but it's a tedious business, and not anything a burglar would consider doing - it takes too long, and makes too much noise. The tools to pick open BS:3621 mortice locks run to £300+ and in most cases are specific to individual models of lock. They're also incredibly difficult to explain to the police of you're not a trading locksmith
> 
> The reason I recommended a BS mortice lock over the 110 is that pick resistance is a nonsense. Mr Burglar isn't going to invest the money or time required to pick a 110 *or* a 114E, and the 114E has a longer bolt throw and larger bolt. In a few years time, if your insurance company *finally* update their requirements, they may well specify that you have BS:3621 locks on all your external doors, and at this point you'll have to replace all the 110s, which will be expensive, and awkward, since the mortise for a 110 is significantly larger than anything else currently in production.
> 
> ...



The 110 has been described as a far more secure lock - now that may mean pick resistance, but it also may mean harder to open, defeat using destructive means. I'll have to have a chat with a tame locksmith or support at Abloy whatstheirname.

The current thinking is this - the more points in a stile engaging with the jamb (i.e. strikers) the harder it is to physically smash the door down, assuming that the other side is well hinge pinned.

If I fit a single sash lock - single point of failure? Now I don't want 2 mortice\sash locks - bit industrial looking. Whereas the deadlock, night latch looks a bit more domestic - have you seen my workshop, it could easily pass for a granny studio flat! 

If I fit a deadlock 1/3 up from the bottom, cylinder 1/3 down and a std mortice handle thingy - that's now 3 points of engagement with the jamb - i.e. multipoint locking without the inherent weaknesses that come with those systems (i.e. euro cylinders). Got to be harder to break in?

Especially if the locks all engage in cutouts a continious 5mmx60mm steel jamb reinforcement that goes all round the frame and is welded in the corners.

Will try and have a look at the 4L67 and SL63's in the flesh. I'm struggling to find a Kaba cylinder\night latch assembly.


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## Mattty (10 Mar 2010)

Setch":3ti2wgsi said:


> How much do you want to spend?
> 
> Ignore the videos of people picking mortice locks - these are either lock sport enthusiasts who have invested shed loads of time in refining their skills to do this (no thief is going to have the dedication or intellect to do the same) or people who have deliberately staged the video to either impress their internet freinds, or try to sell their products. Realistically, no criminal is going to be picking a curtained mortice lock.
> 
> ...


This is one of the best posts i've read in a while. Very well thought out and it's good to hear the thoughts of a professional in their field.


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## head clansman (10 Mar 2010)

hi dibs-h

Security for my workshop is always a constant worry to me. I started to day to improve my security , order one of those new hasp and staple type locks you see on vans nowadays the ones that cant be bolt cropped off .

My workshop door also opens out I'm going to cover door and frame protect hinges at same time with metal sheeting which i'm trying to sourcing today , once metal sheeting has arrived but before fitting the metal sheeting I have an old five point locking door lock from a double glazed front door that i will fit into edge of door and frame as well, might even get a second van lock , all windows will have vertical and horizontal interior flat metal bars fitted as well interwoven with each others. 

My rear fence panels need replacing soon so they will be replaced with vertical shiplap fence probable about a foot higher 7ft and then lightly fitted trellis panel on top so if someone ties to climb over the trellis will collapse thus making noise . 

I already have external garden lighting that i can switch on or off my self but i think this will need upgrading to come on low level light at dusk till dawn throwing light in the right places as a deterrent , and lastly an internal alarm which cannot be seen till it's to late . 

hopefully enough to put off the local scrotes and maybe a real pro , luckily the workshop door can be seen from the house so i hope a well worded sign on the door will be enough to put him/her off as well .
hc


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## head clansman (10 Mar 2010)

hi 

ah yea forgot to mention also outside at the highest point on the cable ends at each end of the workshop two dummy alarm boxes so even if they try to nobble those which they will have to supply there own ladder if they do get inside the real alarm will still go off .

I remember a police officer telling me once when we had an attemped break in at one of my other homes in the past that the scrotes then had done over an entire street down one side in another area of the town the night before they went down a row of houses doing every other house as they went till they reach the next house who had an alarm fitted which could be clearly seen and they bypassed that house , not knowing it was a dummy so don't dismiss it's well worth considereing :wink: . hc


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## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

head clansman":nad1scrl said:


> hi dibs-h
> 
> Security for my workshop is always a constant worry to me. I started to day to improve my security , order one of those new hasp and staple type locks you see on vans nowadays the ones that cant be bolt cropped off .
> 
> ...



I remember early on when wondering about the door, etc. Someone - Benchwayze IIRC - pointed out that the majority of shed break-ins he'd seen\gone to afterwards\or something - the vast majority involved outward opening doors. The design of door that I've made, being a cariage door usually opens outward - but I went with inward.

The dawn to dusk lighting is better than 500w or 30 secs and then off again and teh neighbours thinking it's the cat again.

I have seen it at someone house's which I thought was interesting (never seen it before) - there were a few external PIR's that if triggered, set of a very muted doorbell tone inside. I've seen similar systems driving CCTV domes, i.e. the turn, zoom, etc. are all pre-programmed depending on with PIR triggered and obviously there must be some sort of pecking order. But I digress.

The hasp thingy - I'd be using coach bolts thru to the inside and coming out thru a plate of steel and then some nuts. No matter how long the screws are, etc. they will rip out with enough leverage - usually not much. Coach bolts on the other hand - the timber would have to go 1st.

I know of steel door sets for around £180+vat, including the frame. That might be a better bet than faffing about trying to plate a door? Let me know - I'll dig out some details. No good to me - as I'm in a conservation area.


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## big soft moose (10 Mar 2010)

Mike.C":25beieqk said:


> As for them being insured, you try and find a company that will insure that lot as a hobby. You can get trade insurance which costs mega bucks, but not on a normal household policy. I have even tried getting a individual policy, but its a non stater. If you can find one I would be very very grateful, but I doubt you will.



my shop at home is integeral to the house and is thus covered by the house insurance policy ( i have had them confirm this in writing) - but then i only have a few ks worth of kit anyway

the 'shops at work are covered to a total of £26k spread over two different locations ( thats not just woodwork kit, it also includes contractor level mowers, brushcutters, chainsaws etc)- thats via zurich municipal and costs just under a k per year - whether that is considered exorbitant i couldnt say but its a cost of doing business as if we lost the kit and werent insured we'd be screwed


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## big soft moose (10 Mar 2010)

Dibs-h":2d1t1q4z said:


> I remember early on when wondering about the door, etc. Someone - Benchwayze IIRC - pointed out that the majority of shed break-ins he'd seen\gone to afterwards\or something - the vast majority involved outward opening doors. The design of door that I've made, being a cariage door usually opens outward - but I went with inward.
> 
> .



its a debateable point - if it opens outwards it is easier to get a crowbar in and try to leaver it open - and you are then banking on the stength of your locks to stop this

however if it opens inwards its considerably easier to boot in, or to open with an enforcer/universal key - which is why most crack dens, dealers pads, and such have doors that open out. When raiding these the police normally have to resort to shooting the hinges off with hatton rounds


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## Mike.C (10 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":ulgi5b4b said:


> Mike.C":ulgi5b4b said:
> 
> 
> > As for them being insured, you try and find a company that will insure that lot as a hobby. You can get trade insurance which costs mega bucks, but not on a normal household policy. I have even tried getting a individual policy, but its a non stater. If you can find one I would be very very grateful, but I doubt you will.
> ...



Yes your right there, if your workshop is connected to your house 99% of insures will cover it as part of your household policy.

The thing that pi$$es me off is my workshop used to be a house. :shock: Yes seriously it still has the fire places both upstairs and down  (it got bombed in the war and at sometime in the past someone who owned our house rebuilt the front of it and turned it into a workshop, and we have a garage attached. I wonder if the insurers would still class it as a house if I was robbed?

Cheers

Mike


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## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":1930k4t5 said:


> my shop at home is integeral to the house and is thus covered by the house insurance policy ( i have had them confirm this in writing) - but then i only have a few ks worth of kit anyway



You are rather fortunate - as even my garage isn't integral, let alone the workshop, all the ins co's that I've been with over teh yrs, all cover to a max of £1.5K (and that;s lucky as most will only do £1k).

My Festool gear is more than the max payout. - that's why it's got a matresss on it and looks like a bed! :wink: only kidding.



big soft moose":1930k4t5 said:


> the 'shops at work are covered to a total of £26k spread over two different locations ( thats not just woodwork kit, it also includes contractor level mowers, brushcutters, chainsaws etc)- thats via zurich municipal and costs just under a k per year - whether that is considered exorbitant i couldnt say but its a cost of doing business as if we lost the kit and werent insured we'd be screwed



Business cover is a bit different as it's an allowable expense and is part and parcel of being a business - bit different IMO for a householder.



big soft moose":1930k4t5 said:


> its a debateable point - if it opens outwards it is easier to get a crowbar in and try to leaver it open - and you are then banking on the stength of your locks to stop this
> 
> however if it opens inwards its considerably easier to boot in, or to open with an enforcer/universal key - which is why most crack dens, dealers pads, and such have doors that open out. When raiding these the police normally have to resort to shooting the hinges off with hatton rounds



Never thought about it - crack dens that is. Do find my self looking at roofs evey now and then, having done the one on the house and need to be doing the one on the workshop\garage, but never crack den doors! :lol:


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## big soft moose (10 Mar 2010)

Dibs-h":7bukwlhn said:


> Business cover is a bit different as it's an allowable expense and is part and parcel of being a business - bit different IMO for a householder.



true , although we are a grant funded not for profit organisation so the allowable expense bit doesnt really give us anything




Dibs-h":7bukwlhn said:


> Never thought about it - crack dens that is. Do find my self looking at roofs evey now and then, having done the one on the house and need to be doing the one on the workshop\garage, but never crack den doors! :lol:



I ought to point out that i dont make a habit of hanging arround crack dens either - but a bloke i went to college with works on the specialist entry team for the Met and he tells me that every time they hit an organised criminal, or a crack house, or anyone else who is heavy and fears both police and competitors trying to break in the doors are steel plated with concealed hinges and outward opening so they cant be booted/sledgehammered/rammed in


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## Dibs-h (10 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":287iiaiy said:


> true , although we are a grant funded not for profit organisation so the allowable expense bit doesnt really give us anything



I know - but if you aren't a registered charity & I suspect even if you were, wouldn't be much different - you still get the allowances, so at least one would get teh tax relief.




big soft moose":287iiaiy said:


> I ought to point out that i dont make a habit of hanging arround crack dens either - but a bloke i went to college with works on the specialist entry team for the Met and he tells me that every time they hit an organised criminal, or a crack house, or anyone else who is heavy and fears both police and competitors trying to break in the doors are steel plated with concealed hinges and outward opening so they cant be booted/sledgehammered/rammed in



:lol: :lol: :lol: I wasn't suggesting you were - sorry. Good to know tho - won't look at a metal clad outward opening door without wondering if it's a crack house or not. :lol:


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## big soft moose (10 Mar 2010)

Dibs-h":25ileaxk said:


> big soft moose":25ileaxk said:
> 
> 
> > true , although we are a grant funded not for profit organisation so the allowable expense bit doesnt really give us anything
> ...



yeah but the point i was making is that we are grant funded so we dont have a taxable income anyway so the allowances dont really give us anything


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## Mattty (10 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":1vmb89bo said:


> Dibs-h":1vmb89bo said:
> 
> 
> > big soft moose":1vmb89bo said:
> ...


Who are you grant funded by BSM? I confess to being very naive about NFP Orgs.


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## Dibs-h (11 Mar 2010)

Mattty":ndcl2joc said:


> big soft moose":ndcl2joc said:
> 
> 
> > Dibs-h":ndcl2joc said:
> ...



I'm almost in the same category as Mattty as this one - I'll have to have a bit of a chat with my tame Chartered Accountant, next time I see him (neighbour - so can't be long).


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## TrimTheKing (11 Mar 2010)

Dibs

Have a look at Hiscox for your insurance. I have them and while my current workshop is attached to the house my previous one was detached and they covered that without a question. All I did to smooth the passage was to inventory everything in it with makes/model/values and pictures and sent it to them, they didn't ask for anything further and wrote to confirm I was fully covered.

Worth a look at least, and they are one of the best insurers in the country.


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## Dibs-h (11 Mar 2010)

Cheers Mark - will do.


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## DeanN (12 Mar 2010)

Just quickly skimmed this thread as I'm short of time at the moment. There's lot's of good information, and some good locks mentioned (all of which I fit - again as a trading locksmith). What you need to consider is what your insurer states as a minimum requirement on the doors and windows. No point in shelling out for a 110, a biometric solution, loud alarm, or a huge dog - if the insurer specifies a BS rated lock on the door. If you have a break-in, they will use your selection of locks to wriggle out of paying. Speak to the insurer, and ensure you get in writing whatever is agreed.


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## Dibs-h (12 Mar 2010)

DeanN":2strs2tj said:


> Just quickly skimmed this thread as I'm short of time at the moment. There's lot's of good information, and some good locks mentioned (all of which I fit - again as a trading locksmith). What you need to consider is what your insurer states as a minimum requirement on the doors and windows. No point in shelling out for a 110, a biometric solution, loud alarm, or a huge dog - if the insurer specifies a BS rated lock on the door. If you have a break-in, they will use your selection of locks to wriggle out of paying. Speak to the insurer, and ensure you get in writing whatever is agreed.



Cheers for the advice. I appreciate that some may frown upon this - but I'm not terribly bothered whether it's insurance approved. As Setch pointed out (& I agree) an Ingersoll SC71 isn't BS rated - but I too would rather have one of those than most BS night latches. With all insurance it's a nbrs game - whilst a lock may have some insecurities but as long as it's above a minimum level and BS approved the Ins Co's have reduced their payouts. I don't actually care too much about the Insurance Companies position - it's my own that bothers me. It would appear that most Ins Co's specify 5 lever dead\sash locks - most haven't got a clue about BS3621 and it's revisions. I suppose that may change over time.

But if by fitting a technically superior and therefore harder to get past lock (or whatever) it reduces the chance of someone making off with my kit - I'd go with that every time over a BS.

I do appreciate all the input. I'm just waiting to hear back from Chubb as to what makes the 110 their flagship lock - which to me it appears to be.

The reason a 110 isn't BS rated is that the bolt is 14mm as opposed to 20mm, but a 110 appears to be commonly fitted to commercial premises.

Also I'd have the huge dog over the alarm, etc. every time! :wink:


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## DeanN (12 Mar 2010)

Main feature of the 110 is it's use of detainers rather than levers. This makes it much more difficult to pick open - it can be done, but takes a lot of skill and patience. You can also specify the lock with a microswitch to connect into an alarm system (also available on the 3G114 range).

Like all locks, there are numerous ways to open it - none of which we'll enter into on an open forum, apart from the use of the correct key  . 

It's a good, solid lock and will probably outlive your workshop. Just bear in mind, if someone wants to get into the workshop - they will. You just have to make it a difficult and noisey experience for them.


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## Dibs-h (12 Mar 2010)

DeanN":315oz9ks said:


> Main feature of the 110 is it's use of detainers rather than levers. This makes it much more difficult to pick open - it can be done, but takes a lot of skill and patience. You can also specify the lock with a microswitch to connect into an alarm system (also available on the 3G114 range).
> 
> Like all locks, there are numerous ways to open it - none of which we'll enter into on an open forum, apart from the use of the correct key  .
> 
> It's a good, solid lock and will probably outlive your workshop. Just bear in mind, if someone wants to get into the workshop - they will. You just have to make it a difficult and noisey experience for them.



I agree - almost all locks can be picked - assuming one has the skill (which isn't all that common especially for detainer locks) and the patience and if you can do it in < 10 mins - cool, 'cos if you start and can't - you'd be in for a painful shock, :wink:

Yes - if someone wants in - then they'd get in - but a bloke stood in a back garden firing up a Stihl saw and cutting his way in - is more than likely to get noticed, especially with nosey neighbours.


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## big soft moose (12 Mar 2010)

Mattty":1ij03jmh said:


> big soft moose":1ij03jmh said:
> 
> 
> > Dibs-h":1ij03jmh said:
> ...



we are predominantly funded by natural england with some maintenance funding coming from local authorities who's patch the trails pass through - plus we have the potential to apply for grants from landfil tax, lottery etc for specific projects - none of which is taxable income. ( i supopse technically we arent a true NFP but its the closest easy description , as we dont have charitable status )


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## big soft moose (12 Mar 2010)

DeanN":1xo3dq2f said:


> Main feature of the 110 is it's use of detainers rather than levers. This makes it much more difficult to pick open - it can be done, but takes a lot of skill and patience. You can also specify the lock with a microswitch to connect into an alarm system (also available on the 3G114 range).
> 
> Like all locks, there are numerous ways to open it - none of which we'll enter into on an open forum, apart from the use of the correct key  .
> 
> It's a good, solid lock and will probably outlive your workshop. Just bear in mind, if someone wants to get into the workshop - they will. You just have to make it a difficult and noisey experience for them.



oxyacetylene torch will open pretty much any lock - but johnny scrote isnt likely to have one handy - though when i worked in MK one of the maintenance depots was done by someone who used a torch to melt the case hardened and protected padlock - we suspected at the time that it was persons from ther travelling community.


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## Dibs-h (14 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":vngf1xz3 said:


> oxyacetylene torch will open pretty much any lock - but johnny scrote isnt likely to have one handy - though when i worked in MK one of the maintenance depots was done by someone who used a torch to melt the case hardened and protected padlock - we suspected at the time that it was persons from ther travelling community.



Yep - Mind you carrying a porta pack is going to be a tad bit hard to explain to plod.

Update: Went to get something else from an Ironmongers I usually use - having had trouble finding someone with either a 3g110 or a SC71 in stock without having my pants pulled down. List price for a 3g110 is £86+vat and for a sc71 is somewhere around £130+vat.

I paid £48 (inv Vat) for the 3G110 - no discount and £86 (in vat) for the SC71. How's that for a bloomin discovery? And that's only because there was a chap before me buying a Chubb lock - which prompted me to ask - "You do locks then?"


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