# Burning pallets in a wood burner?



## Mark A

We're thinking about getting a wood burning stove this winter, so can we burn pallet wood as we have access to quite a lot of it? I've heard that it can damage the flue by coating it in creosote as some are treated.

Thanks,
Mark


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## Jacob

We burn anything and everything. 
You need a good lined flue though as a lot of dust goes up and would settle if there are spaces, and resinous/oily/plastic stuff may condense which with soot can make chimney fire a hazard.
But a good flue stays warmer and has a better draft than a typical old masonry chimney. It takes it all away and what sticks to the sides generally detaches itself and falls back.
Pallets, chipboard and mdf are very good burners. Best of all is very dry ash/oak etc


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## doorframe

I was told that you have to dry store the pallet wood for a year before burning, and be able to prove it. Don't know if that's true.

Roy


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## Jacob

doorframe":1n156nk0 said:


> I was told that you have to dry store the pallet wood for a year before burning, and be able to prove it. Don't know if that's true.
> 
> Roy


Sounds very unlikely to me. Pallet wood is going to be thoroughly seasoned well before it gets scrapped. 
Anyway who would you have to prove it to?
However freshly cut living wood needs cutting into usable sized pieces and left for a year or more. Ideally under shelter but not essential. It'll still season in the open air but may need drying before burning. Drying wet but seasoned wood is much quicker than seasoning itself.


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## Mark A

Thanks everyone

I guess I've been paying too much attention to the scaremongers again! 

I still don't know if we are going down the wood burner route, but with the cost of oil it would almost pay for itself this winter so it makes sense (and I can dispose of my mistakes and no one will know!)

Cheers,
Mark


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## studders

I've recycled quite a few pallets, never found any tar in them, though some smell as though they have been treated with similar smelling treatment as that used on tanalised softwood and I'd be wary of burning them.


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## Jacob

studders":14w1ae2y said:


> I've recycled quite a few pallets, never found any tar in them, though some smell as though they have been treated with similar smelling treatment as that used on tanalised softwood and I'd be wary of burning them.


It all goes up the chimney, if it isn't destroyed by the heat. Most smoke is pretty toxic anyway so a bit of treated timber isn't going to make much difference IMHO.
But burning wood is very carbon neutral and benefits the environment by reducing the demand for oil and coal. The same applies to any waste which would otherwise end up as landfill and not be recycled. Better to burn it and save on fossil fuel.


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## henton49er

Mark,

I've just gone down the woodburner route. I took out an oil stove in the lounge and replaced it with a similar output woodburner (and double lined the chimney which is key to not getting tarry deposits in the flue). I have about 10 tonnes of wood already seasoned to be sawn and split for firewood over the next few years and two fallen trees (each about 1.2m in diameter) waiting to be processed for woodturning and firewood. It seemed a no-brainer to me with the fuel supply readily available. However, if you have to buy ready-swan and split logs from a local supplier, these are becoming more and more expensive, keeping pace with the increases in oil and gas.

Mike


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## Richard T

My neighbour across the road uses pallets for at least half his annual firewood and has no problems at all. (He works at Tesco ...)

In my experience, the very worst wood for sooting up is Scotts Pine, White Pine or similar. I have seen the smoke from its resin condense into soot in the air and fall as a solid - no chimney needed :shock:


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## Jacob

Richard T":39yzzjz3 said:


> My neighbour across the road uses pallets for at least half his annual firewood and has no problems at all. (He works at Tesco ...)
> 
> In my experience, the very worst wood for sooting up is Scotts Pine, White Pine or similar. I have seen the smoke from its resin condense into soot in the air and fall as a solid - no chimney needed :shock:


Well I have to say I burn more Scots pine than anything (redwood offcuts and old joinery scrap) and there is no problem whatsoever. What you saw was probably a bit of ash or soot blow out when somebody poked the fire or opened the door etc.

Seems to generate a lot of anxiety this wood burning idea. I wonder why? After all we have been doing it for at least 750,000 years. A defining characteristic of our species, along with tool making/using.
Mind you tool making/using gets a lot of knickers in a twist too!


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## studders

Jacob":2ifp2zm3 said:


> After all we have been doing it for at least 750,000 years....!


I thought you were old but....

Don't think they've been using some of the preserving chemicals for quite that long and their homes weren't quite as airtight as they are these days.


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## Richard T

'fraid not Jacob - This was by way of deliberate demonstration: Scots Pine resin, small blob on end of stick, set light to in open space, big orange flame producing thin black smoke from the tip. At about 2 foot above the flame the smoke solidified and fell as thin powdery pieces. Must have been a cold day.
This was part of my "essential" tree surgeon's training ... there was another chap who used to delight in showing us how high a mostly empty petrol can could get blown above the bonfire ...


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## Jacob

Richard T":ak67mb6p said:


> 'fraid not Jacob - This was by way of deliberate demonstration: Scots Pine resin, small blob on end of stick, set light to in open space, big orange flame producing thin black smoke from the tip. At about 2 foot above the flame the smoke solidified and fell as thin powdery pieces. .... ...


Interesting but irrelevant - it's not a problem burning it in a wood stove, which is what we are talking about. Temperature is higher in a wood-stove than a burning blob of resin in the open air! A coal fire is similar - until it gets hot it can be smokey and tarry.
Similarly if you tried to ignite bit of mdf in the open air you'd have a different problem, it wouldn't burn at all, but in a stove it burns clean and hot just like phurnacite.


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## acewoodturner

hi

I have had a woodburner in my workshop for about 6 years and I am on an industrial estate. Most of the bigger factories around here use pallets and I could get as many of them as I want. I dont take any as I cant be bothered to take them apart and denail them. The wood which is also of the lowest quality burns too fast and would be forever filling up the stove. I mill my own trees with a chainsaw mill and I get all the branches for firewood and just cut them to about 12" lengths and split them back at the workshop. As I am doing this regularly I season them out at the back of the workshop under cover, thereby having a good continuous suppl of firewood. I use all my offcuts from the workshop along with the sawdust and shavings as well. As we have had 2 bad winters I have also being cutting up smaller windblown trees with a couple of mates as the 3 of us all have woodburners.
I am now considering a stove for the house and have picked the model I want. It would cost me about £1500 to buy and install and should I be kept busy with good orders between now and christmas I might just treat myself before the winter is out. I reckon I could save about £800 a year on fuel bills not to mention the house being warmer!

Mike


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## sue denim

No mention of pallet wood

http://gladstonefamily.net/logs-to-burn.html




I have been told that some authorities have banned the burning of pallets due to possible chemical contamination etc.

personally I burn nothing but oak and heat the entire house with it.

sooting and tarring may be down to economical but less efficient log burners

Sue


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## EddieJ

sue denim":226mjr08 said:


> personally I burn nothing but oak and heat the entire house with it.




Same as that.  





























I reckon that I now have somewhere in the region of 100 cubic metres stacked up ready to go. I accumulate it faster than I can burn it. You can never have too much of a good thing.


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## Mark A

EddieJ":1s7fmhj6 said:


> You can never have too much of a good thing.


 I said that about cakes..... :roll: 

Thanks everyone - you've certainly given me some more options. Time to find prices for wood burners and flues methinks. 

Cheers,
Mark


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## EddieJ

By memory, 'stoves are us' used to be the cheapest for wood burners and 'hot line chimneys' for the liner etc. 

Good luck, you won't regret it.


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## Harbo

One of our neighbours, who lives south and generally upwind of our house, creates a lot of smoke and terrible stink as they seem to burn un-seasoned wood?

He works in the building trade and seems to have a ready supply of freshly felled timber.
Sadly he seems to burn it straight away!

My wife will not let me complain but I look forward to northerly winds.

Rod


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## Jacob

The Daily Mail says wood burning causes cancer :shock: 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... sease.html
So that's good news then - everything in the DM is total pineapples :lol: but good for a laugh.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=269512464297
http://tabloid-watch.blogspot.com/2010/ ... shock.html


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## Mark A

Worcestershire sauce, candle-lit dinners, bath water and turning on the light at night to go to the toilet all cause cancer? :lol:


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## Richard T

Ironically, The Daily Mail is quite good for lighting the woodburner. Not quite as good as your super soaraway Sun however.
I think this is probably due to the cheap, coarse woodpulp paper rather than any volatile gasses produced by the content but one never knows.


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## heimlaga

I find it strange that wood firing is causing that much debate in your country.

Up here we use a lot of firewood. Many houses in the countryside are heated entirely with wood. At home we are stuck with an old system and use wood for a little more than half outr heat and oil for the rest. In winter we may have down to -40 degrees celsius in extreme cases and -20 for weeks on end is just normal so we need quite a bit of heat.

All wood species we have are more or less good for fire wood. Birch, rowan, scots pine, alder, spruce, aspen anything that burns. Firewood is normaly dried for at least one full summer or preferably two. It starts to degrade after about 10 years. 
A very common system is to cut the logs one metre long. The bigger logs are split and the smaller ones get one or two strips of bark removed. Then the wood is stacked in stacks as wide as the logs are long. The stacks are usually about as high as the owner is tall and often very long. The top is covered with plastic or pieces cut from old discarded lorry tarpaulins. With this system the airflow through the stack will not be interrupted.
In autumn the wood needed for the winter is crosscut in halves or thirds or quarters and the biggest logs split again to fit the kind of boiler or stove you have. This means that the short wood is always dry from the beginning.

Pallets wood and demolition wood and construction site offcuts are often burned in late spring and early autumn because it produces less heat per volume than proper fire wood. There is not enough heat in it for mid winter usage.

Pressuse treated wood is proven to produce a very toxic smoke which also will destroy the chimney and the stove in the long run. It should not be burned under any cirkumstances. Plastic should not be burned either because it creates a lot of soot.


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## HarryPalmer

Wood burners can be less efficient than multifuel burners, some burn the fuel twice, KSW multifuel boilers are an example. These will burn any wood, coal, pallets, pellets, coke, cardboard etc. without leaving tar and soot stuck to the inside of the flue because they burn very hot which eliminates the problem and is more environmentalyy friendly.


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## Jacob

If in doubt it's better to burn a small fire hot rather than having a large heap smouldering away with the dampers closed. 
Fan assisted batch burners are the most efficient in terms of heat output per unit of wood, and cleanest emissions, but they involve other costs.


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## stuartpaul

heimlaga":tz3doobt said:


> Pressuse treated wood is proven to produce a very toxic smoke which also will destroy the chimney and the stove in the long run. It should not be burned under any cirkumstances.



Find that hard to believe although you guys burn more wood than we do. Can you point towards the 'proven' bit?

I 'wood' ( =P~ ) have thought that as long as you don't burn it exclusively there wouldn't be an issue? I do burn treated wood (not masses) and will continue to do so.


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## mouppe

I burn about 2 cords of wood each winter, and I avoid softwoods. I burn mainly ash, some oak, birch and maple. I get my chimney cleaned once a year and I have minimal creosote build-up. 

Whatever you burn, it's good advice to get your chimney cleaned each year and I think you'll find that burning softwoods will require a deeper cleaning than hardwood burning.


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## Phil Pascoe

Jacob said:


> If in doubt it's better to burn a small fire hot rather than having a large heap smouldering away with the dampers closed.
> I was advised when installing my last one to get one a size smaller that the estimate for that reason - it's better they burn hot.
> I've just got a Dowling Little Devil 8b - just now getting a price to fit it. =P~


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## Phil Pascoe

I sense another thread starting - the HETAS reg. installer has refused to fit it. It has no CE certification. #-o


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## Jacob

phil.p":378gdaty said:


> I sense another thread starting - the HETAS reg. installer has refused to fit it. It has no CE certification. #-o


Perhaps get another installer and/or phone Steve Dowling.
I put mine in myself.
Have just fitted a second Dowling stove - a "Sumo". Weather been to hot to use it yet except for trial burns but it seems very good. We have as much exposed steel pipe as possible as this gets very hot and you get more heat back especially if you do a fast burn.


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## DennisCA

Richard T":1gv5m117 said:


> 'fraid not Jacob - This was by way of deliberate demonstration: Scots Pine resin, small blob on end of stick, set light to in open space, big orange flame producing thin black smoke from the tip. At about 2 foot above the flame the smoke solidified and fell as thin powdery pieces. Must have been a cold day.
> This was part of my "essential" tree surgeon's training ... there was another chap who used to delight in showing us how high a mostly empty petrol can could get blown above the bonfire ...



Scots pine I assume is basically european pine or similar enough. 90% of firewood is made from that in Finland I 'd wager. Basically all I burn too. By law chimneys should be swept regularly.


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## Phil Pascoe

My man said I won't get any registered installer to do it - I can't get my wheelchair around the roof very easily so I can't do it and in any case having just moved house twice I'm fed up with people saying this, that and the other needs paperwork. It would undoubtedly invalidate our insurance as well. Since last year self certification is no longer adequate, the stove has to have its own CE certification. I've just emailed Steve Dowling. If it's not resolved I'll start another thread.


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## Jacob

Sorry about that hope it works out.
I showed our BCO what we were installing and he didn't seem too bothered. Some of the rules have got so complicated and contradictory that they have become self defeating.


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## beech1948

philp,

CE certification is an interesting pile of bulls**t. The CE regulations permit two types of certifications a) Tested by a laboratory b) Self tested.

Yes in option b) the company/individual involved are able to declare that the item is CE compliant and attach a CE stamp. I think that is quite strange but hey..ho.

What that means to you is that if you carry out the following steps you may be able to self certify.

1) Find and read the voluminous CE regs from the EU.
2) identify the portion which applies to stoves used to heat buildings.....there will be many types here and choice of the correct type will be critical. Find the details, print it and start a file of info.
3) From the discovered docs list the details/standards to which the stove must comply. Again there will be several eg welding standards, paint types, flue draw rates. Don't worry about them just list them. You only need to know what standards apply. A chat with local Trading Standards will help as they should know or be able to point you at the exact legislation.
4) Go back to your "supplier" and ask them to WRITE to you confirming the various standards used to manufacture the stove. If unsuccessful then ask them to let you know who made it and call their tech dept and ask them to write to you. You may end up writing to them the letter you want as a reply so they can agree in response.
5) This response is critical as CE self certification is all about best endeavours and being able to show that you tracked it down through the file of records you have.
6) Assuming you get a complete set of answers, documented in your file, then you can attach a CE label yourself as these are to be done by a competent person. Who could be more competent than tracking down this rigmarole.


Thats it. CE seems to be very difficult with people expecting the costs to be very expensive. In reality if a supplier will write to you and say it was done to this EU standard then you need not test yourself you can rely on their testing.

Finally, if your supplier will not help then demand your money back as the device is unfit for purpose as it is illegal to sell stuff without a CE mark or its equivalent. 

What I do know is that wooden toys made abroad are dealt with in this way. China seldom tests anything and just applies the CE mark.

Good luck.


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## Phil Pascoe

The guy fitting it for me has contacted Dowling as well, so we'll see what happens. I've just paid £1200 for it so I don't feel inclined to go out of my way to prove anything. (Sorry, that's not a criticism of anything in your post  ).


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## beech1948

philp,

Thats OK I understand. Remember that things sold in the Uk need to have a CE mark or have its equivalent from a Uk or other standards agency.

good luck


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## beech1948

Just looked at Dowlings web site and the page about Certification and CE. 

Certification




As a small craft based manufacturer we qualify as a ‘micro enterprise’ and as such, under EU Regulation (the Construction Products Regulation 2011, A 37/38), can certify our own products.

We conduct basic thermal testing of all our products in house, and have two of our stoves externally tested and CE marked (the Hybrid space heater, and the Sumo boiler). These tests were done in March 2009 at GASTEC in Cheltenham, and gave us a thorough insight into the various parameters of safety and efficiency that a stove must comply with in the UK and throughout Europe (results available on request).

To submit for external testing the wide range of models that we’ve developed over the years would be prohibitively expensive for us, especially with the high proportion of custom-building that we do. It would also really limit the radical design ethos that we’ve always tried to bring to our stoves.

We have various procedures in place for constancy of performance (CNC plasma cutting of parts, jigs and templates for particular models, and regular fabrication procedures), but being able to self-certify allows us the freedom to not only continually develop new design, but also to custom-build.

To comply with Building Regulations, each stove comes with a detailed CE Declaration of Performance, signed by either of the two business owners, Steve Dowling or Bill Menear, and we stand 100 per cent behind everything that goes out of our doors.


Given the above you should have found a CE Declaration of Performance document in the packaging so you are covered by Steve Dowling's testing and self certified CE certs. If not get him to issue a new one and proceed.


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## Phil Pascoe

I have that (although I've not yet forwarded it), but the installer says it is not adequate - every stove must actually be marked.


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## beech1948

philp,

I don't think each item has to be physically marked with a CE. I don't recall ever reading that in the legislation. It is at best optional as most manufacturers simply add a sticky label. Seems the installer needs a bit of education. I doubt he has ever read the legislation and I expect he is simply repeating what someone has told him. Maybe try another installer or 2.


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## Jacob

We had a query with Dowlings about the design of the shield behind the stove which didn't comply to the letter with the rules, but were assured that Dowling's own tests were good enough and if necessary they'd speak to our BCO. They seem to have everything covered. 
And they are good stoves - 10 years and zero maintenance so far (except when we broke the glass but that was our fault) as compared with replacement baffles , firebricks, fireproof string etc with a Morso Squirrel at £50 plus per year.
I doubt the need for an actual mark on the stove.


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## Phil Pascoe

I'll forward the declaration to the installer and see what happens tomorrow. I don't see what the problem is, but the installer says it should have a plate, usually riveted, and he is a HETAS registered experienced guy. I'm reluctant to start mud slinging at this stage, but it's hassle I don't need.


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## Phil Pascoe

Jacob - I think my "Clearview" cost us about £400 every three years in parts. That was the attraction of the Dowling.


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## Phil Pascoe

All appears to be resolved. My man, HETAS and Dowling have all communicated and all is well. I must admit I find it a little surprising that HETAS didn't seem to have it on record that Dowling were eligible to self certify, but credit all round.


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## Jacob

Pleased you got it sorted, especially if it was my recommendation which persuaded you in the first place!


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## Phil Pascoe

It did influence.  It's good to hear the views of people with no ties to the manufacturers, suppliers or anybody.


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## whiskywill

beech1948":19b328sr said:


> Remember that things sold in the Uk need to have a CE mark or have its equivalent from a Uk or other standards agency.



Not all things.


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