# New Veritas Chisels ?



## Max Power (1 Oct 2011)

Anybody know what happened to the Veritas chisels scheduled for release earlier this year :?


----------



## Rob Lee (1 Oct 2011)

Hi Alan,

They're in pre-production now... O1 chisels first.... Fully lapped blades, socket and tang construction, caramelized maple handles.

In 6-8 months, they'll be available in www.pm-v11.com ....

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## LuptonM (1 Oct 2011)

Any pics of prototypes or predicted price?


----------



## Rob Lee (1 Oct 2011)

Hi -

Prototypes are at WIA, and the pricing has not yet been set. The O1 chisels are just going into production, so we won't have a better idea of price until we've made a few hundred. They will be in line with other premium chisels...

Cheers, 

Rob


----------



## Alf (1 Oct 2011)

Rob Lee":30q82dhl said:


> ...caramelized maple handles.


While I'm not unfamiliar with drooling over tools, drooling over them because they actually sound edible is a new one. Tasty.


----------



## Rob Lee (1 Oct 2011)

Hi Alf -

Actually, the wood smells like maple syrup. Every time I pass the area where the lumber's stored, I get a hankering for pancakes ...

Cheers -

Rob
(and....what could be more appropriate for a Canadian product??)


----------



## Max Power (2 Oct 2011)

Thanks for the update Rob, dont forget to send me one of the first ones for review :wink:


----------



## pedder (2 Oct 2011)

Rob Lee":1nzfb4qh said:


> They're in pre-production now... O1 chisels first.... Fully lapped blades, socket and tang construction, caramelized maple handles.



Hi Rob,

It is the fully lapped back that gets me. When I last time flatened a new chisels mirror side, i said at least a dozend time, couldn'titbe like my plane irons??

Cheers 
Pedder


----------



## pedder (2 Oct 2011)

From woodnet. hmmmm =D>


----------



## adidat (2 Oct 2011)

=P~ =P~ =P~ 

mmmmm

very nice

may have to retire my sorbys as "site chisel's"

to make way for those badboys!

adidat


----------



## TheTiddles (2 Oct 2011)

Rob Lee":1vb9z5fo said:


> Hi Alf -
> 
> Actually, the wood smells like maple syrup. Every time I pass the area where the lumber's stored, I get a hankering for pancakes ...
> 
> ...



Moose horn?


----------



## condeesteso (2 Oct 2011)

I suspect these are going to be quite something. Pleased about the O1 choice as I am never quite convinced with my LN A2s... got them before O1 was offered but I still go to the old US Stanleys, the laminated Japanese or even old Marples for anything subtle. So I like the sound of these. But do I need more chisels? Right. O.K. then.


----------



## Rob Lee (7 Oct 2011)

Hi,

The O1 will be nice....but the PM steel will be a game changer.... 8) 

Cheers,

Rob
(avoiding working on landscaping at the cottage....)


----------



## Paul Chapman (7 Oct 2011)

Rob Lee":17cvogv6 said:


> The O1 will be nice....but the PM steel will be a game changer.... 8)



So, what's PM steel :? 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## condeesteso (7 Oct 2011)

Rob, they do sound brilliant, and I am always confident about Veritas. But a question please? Do you plan any other flavours, as I find maple syrup a bit sickly sweet. :roll: 
[Seriously, I know these are going to be very good indeed].

(edit) and +1 for PM steel??


----------



## Doug B (7 Oct 2011)

Paul Chapman":14n6b6op said:


> Rob Lee":14n6b6op said:
> 
> 
> > The O1 will be nice....but the PM steel will be a game changer.... 8)
> ...



Powder Metal? if so i`d be interested in a look see


----------



## LuptonM (7 Oct 2011)

This is the only thing I could find about powered metal http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread. ... g-5-Steels related to hand tools


----------



## Jacob (7 Oct 2011)

Doug B":1xl1kjtg said:


> Paul Chapman":1xl1kjtg said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Lee":1xl1kjtg said:
> ...


Sounds crumbly to me. :roll:


----------



## Harbo (7 Oct 2011)

Hard to sharpen and Japanese White steel came out tops!?

Rod


----------



## Doug B (7 Oct 2011)

Jacob":2gsygkts said:


> Doug B":2gsygkts said:
> 
> 
> > Paul Chapman":2gsygkts said:
> ...



:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Rob Lee (8 Oct 2011)

Hi,

"PM" is powdered metal ...a manufacturing method that makes a very homogenous steel, with significant performance benefits...

Our new PM steel (PM-V11) will outperform just about any steel we've tested...and there were more than 20 of them.

It has better impact and wear resistance than A2, O1, D2, CPM-3V, CPM-6V, M2, and M4 steels, just to name a few. It will also sharpen as easily as A2....

It's going to surprise a lot of people....

Cheers,

Rob
( who had to dig through 2' of friable rock with with a pick to finish the retaining wall base...)


----------



## Paul Chapman (8 Oct 2011)

Rob Lee":3dn4g4sk said:


> "PM" is powdered metal ...a manufacturing method that makes a very homogenous steel, with significant performance benefits...
> 
> Our new PM steel (PM-V11) will outperform just about any steel we've tested...and there were more than 20 of them.
> 
> It has better impact and wear resistance than A2, O1, D2, CPM-3V, CPM-6V, M2, and M4 steels, just to name a few. It will also sharpen as easily as A2....



Thanks, Rob - sounds good. By the way, I bought one of those twin-stem marking gauges that you showed me at the Axminster hand tool event - it's excellent 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Tony Zaffuto (8 Oct 2011)

Been a member here for years, but don't post often (don't speak unless I know a bit about the topic). Anyhow, in this case, I know a tad about powder metal. Without asking Rob about the metals he is using, powder metal gives the manufacturer the ability to devise a mix of materials with specific metal percentages (for example, if you wanted a mix of 99.5% iron and .5% carbon, you could do it ultra-precisely, and with the percentages being distributed precisely through the entire mix).

After composing the exact mix you desire, the mix is compacted into the shape you desire. There are many ways to accomplish this, and is dependent upon the finished shape desired. Some ways are in high tonnage presses, other ways are in rubber "boots" of the finish shape, compacted in a pressure vehicle with hydraulic pressure on all sides. This stage of manufacturing is called the "green" compact and could be compared to a snow ball, as you would have particles of snow, compacted in your hand and some what holding the shape together. 

Now, if you want the compact to do more, another stage of manufacturing is needed. Either freeze the snowball, or take the powder metal green compact and sinter (or bake) it at accelerated temperatures to make it a solid product. At this stage, the part may look somewhat like the finish product, but still typically has other finishing steps required, similar to other manufacturing methods, such as lanishing, grinding, etc.

Jacob has a degree of correctness in his statement of "crumbly", as powder metal can be, if not processed correctly, or the wrong process is used. It can resemble cast metal because particles are used and pressed together. HOWEVER, it also gives the ability to create a super material. I suppose most here are familiar with carbide? Carbide is a PM process! 

I am not familiar with the exact process Rob is using, but I am quite familiar with processes that result in metals that have superior properties beyond even what is needed for chisels. For years, many turning tools have been made from PM processes. Many auto parts are made from the process, including valve seats inside the engine and gears inside the transmission. 

In short, the process gives the manufacturer the ability to ultra customize the properties required for the finished product. I apologize for the rather short/cryptic description I have given as I pressed for the time at the moment.


----------



## Andrea (8 Oct 2011)

Rob Lee":13ggudz0 said:


> Hi,
> 
> "PM" is powdered metal ...a manufacturing method that makes a very homogenous steel, with significant performance benefits...
> 
> Our new PM steel (PM-V11) will outperform just about any steel we've tested...and there were more than 20 of them.



Hi Rob, I've read somewhere that product cost effectiveness is by far the predominant reason for choosing Powder Metallurgy and that Powder Metallurgy wins the cost competition on the basis of its lower energy consumption, higher material utilisation and reduced numbers of process steps, in comparison with other production technologies.

Is this true?
Which is the composition of PM-V11?
Do you plan to do even the planes blades with this kind of steel?


----------



## Rob Lee (8 Oct 2011)

Hi Andrea,

Yes, using a PM can be very cost effective, but not at the scale we're looking at. The tooling expense to mold chisels is prohibitive at quantities rational for our business. We'll be running mill runs of steel in bar and sheet form..several bar sizes to miminise waste. The steel is about $18 per pound, yet has the same scrap value as the cheapest steel....the cost is due to the manufacturing method, and not the constituent metals in the alloy.

We will be making plane blades as well...we have made some for test purposes right now...

At this time, we are not going to disclose the exact alloy we are working with. Our choice is the result of more than a year of testing and analysis, at a cost approaching six figures. We will be publishing much of the test data, showing performance relative to many well known steels though. We took more than 5600 photos of extended wear and impact testing of the steels we did test.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## Vann (8 Oct 2011)

So, if I understand this correctly, the new chisels will be a modern equivalent of the laminated blades of olde - with a softer steel backing and a hard steel surface applied to the face (err.. back, err.. non-bevel side).

Very interesting =D> 

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## yetloh (8 Oct 2011)

I have tried a few blades of various types of exotic PM and yes, their wear properties are exceptional, but in my experience, the edge is inferior to the best Japanese laminated blades and this is even mor important to me they greatly extended resistance. Have you also managed to crack this one, Rob?

Jim


----------



## Rob Lee (9 Oct 2011)

yetloh":ww98bsxx said:


> I have tried a few blades of various types of exotic PM and yes, their wear properties are exceptional, but in my experience, the edge is inferior to the best Japanese laminated blades and this is even mor important to me they greatly extended resistance. Have you also managed to crack this one, Rob?
> 
> Jim



Hi Jim,

That's one I can't answer....we're not claiming the ultimate steel here...what we're going to do is offer a steel that gives significant performance advantages in production edge tools. The edges on chisels and plane blades (in the new steel) will last significantly longer, and will not require some exotic sharpening regimen. In fact - you should be able to sharper PM-V11 with any system that works with A2, and most likely O1, if you use ceramic or water stones.
All I can say with respect to the edge - is that we are VERY pleased with what we will be offering...

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## Andrea (9 Oct 2011)

Hi Rob and many thanks for your kind answer.

The result of Powder Metallurgy manufacturing method seems to me very similar to the ancient damascus steel, not the few layered decorative one, but the thousand layered one.



Rob Lee":3qd0wskq said:


> We will be making plane blades as well...we have made some for test purposes right now...



If you need a beta tester for a Stanley/Record compatible blade, I have some black locust boards that need to be planned. ;-)



Rob Lee":3qd0wskq said:


> At this time, we are not going to disclose the exact alloy we are working with. Our choice is the result of more than a year of testing and analysis, at a cost approaching six figures.



I did not want to know the exact composition of the alloy, but only the dominant components.
For example, there is more than 10% of vanadium in your recipe?


----------



## Rob Lee (10 Oct 2011)

Alan Jones":2bsko8rq said:


> What is the cameralised maple Rob ?
> Is it just a colouring process or does it enhance the qualities of the maple in some way ?



Hi Alan,

Basically -it's baking the wood at 170C ( I think that was the temp ) causing the sugars in the maple to caramelise ... Coloring the wood to a very nice brown throughout. Makes the wood very dry too...and hard to turn. I'm not aware of any specific mechanical changes ( as one could have with ash ) ....

Cheers 

Rob


----------



## Rob Lee (10 Oct 2011)

Andrea":wh14esqo said:


> Hi Rob and many thanks for your kind answer.
> 
> The result of Powder Metallurgy manufacturing method seems to me very similar to the ancient damascus steel, not the few layered decorative one, but the thousand layered one.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Lee (10 Oct 2011)

Hi Andrea,

The above relpy isn't nested correctly...but it's in there! Can't seem to edit it properly on an iPad....

Cheers 

Rob


----------



## jimi43 (10 Oct 2011)

Apart from the steel...which is always interesting...I am intrigued by the caramelisation of the maple.


I am finding it hard to research this process....and wonder if this is also a trade secret at the moment Rob...or can you spill the beans a bit more on this technique.

_UPDATE...put a Z in it (of course...colony speak!)....then there is loads of info..._



> The wood is heat treated and the darker color process is made by putting the wood into a dry kiln and bringing the moisture content down to 4%.
> 
> After that the kiln is vacuum sealed and the curly maple is heated at 360 degrees Fahrenheit for 4 hours. The end result is a permanent darkening completely through the wood.



I assume the high sugar content of the maple's resin allows it to be treated this way and I wonder if there are any other woods with a high sugar content which might benefit from this.

I want to have a go at home....I think I need to know more so I can spout technical terms to my poor suffering wife who often finds lumps of steel tempering in her oven...I think the sight of lumps of wood might just tip her over the edge!

Cheers

Jim


----------



## Max Power (10 Oct 2011)

Thanks Rob, theres always something new to learn, and tell your lads to hurry up  , I've put off buying chisels all year waiting to see these :lol:


----------



## Tim Nott (25 Dec 2011)

Rob Lee":2wl5krxe said:


> Hi,
> 
> "PM" is powdered metal ...a manufacturing method that makes a very homogenous steel, with significant performance benefits...
> 
> ...



Surely you could excavate friable rock with a skillet?


----------



## Rob Lee (26 Dec 2011)

Tim Nott":kpisns2n said:


> Rob Lee":kpisns2n said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



En France, ca se peut qu'on peut faire ca avec "tuffault", mais pas avec le pierre ici....

Cheers - 

Rob
(who has 16 staying at the house, and 22 for dinner tonight....and it's not a large house! )


----------



## Pekka Huhta (27 Dec 2011)

jimi43":1i2h3p03 said:


> Apart from the steel...which is always interesting...I am intrigued by the caramelisation of the maple.
> 
> I am finding it hard to research this process....and wonder if this is also a trade secret at the moment Rob...or can you spill the beans a bit more on this technique.



Jimi, you should google just "heat treated wood". Caramelisation seems to be another word for heat treating the wood. Generally the temperature of the wood is raised over to a certain limit (depends on the wood and the required effects of the heat treatment) and the process is controlled by hot air, steam, or in case of Rob's process, vacuum. 

You can make heat treated wood yourself, but a kitchen oven is not necessarily hot enough. On small bits of wood it could be OK though, on big planks the process time can be several days to avoid splitting and warping of the wood. 

I have made small pieces of heat trearted wood in a fireplace, see the thread below: 

post570055.html

With that method you should wrap the pieces in tissue (to avoid contaminating the pieces with sand which would dull your tools later on), put them in wet sand in a container and wait a few hours or overnight. 

One risk of this is that the mechanical properties of the wood will degrade and the wood becomes more brittle. It's not necessarily a problem, but in any case something you should be aware of. I am sure that Rob's engineers have had long days getting the process just right  

I happen to know little something of the process because one of the heat treatment processes was developed in Finland and they were just across the yard when I was studying wood technology in Helsinki University of Technology and we shared the same smoking area with them :lol: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_prese ... treatments

Pekka

P.S: heat treated wood will have wonderfully dark colors if you oil it. the two pictures below show the difference: the first one is just heat treated birch and the second has about 20 coats of linseed oil in it. When you varnish on that with oil varnish it looks really stunning, you could not believe that it is birch.


----------



## Jacob (27 Dec 2011)

Pekka Huhta":5s738tq3 said:


> Jimi, you should google just "heat treated wood". Caramelisation seems to be another word for heat treatment the wood. .......


Caramelisation is the process of heating (and oxidising ?) sugar until it produces caramel, used in cookery and confectionery, with that well known brown colour and flavour; "toffee" etc.
Maple has a high sugar content (hence maple syrup) so if you heat it high enough you can get caramel flavours and smells. 
Flavoured chisel handles sounds good, the possibilities are endless! Dandelion & Burdock?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramel


----------



## Pekka Huhta (27 Dec 2011)

Jacob":vj0opzxi said:


> Caramelisation is the process of heating (and oxidising ?) sugar until it produces caramel, used in cookery and confectionery, with that well known brown colour and flavour; "toffee" etc.
> Maple has a high sugar content (hence maple syrup) so if you heat it high enough you can get caramel flavours and smells.



Sure, but in fact heat treatment creates pretty much similar effects on any type of wood regardless of the sugar content - which was what I tried to say. 

I haven't heat treated maple, but the same process works on all the wood species. I do not know what's the effect of sugar in heat treating maple, but on the heat treatment process it is generally the lignin of the wood which starts breaking down and which in fact also causes the change in colour. 

Heat treated pine has widely been substituted over here to chemically treated wood, as the heat treatment increases rot resistance. Pine is far from having a high sugar content, but the heat treated boards have a lovely dark brown colour anyway  

Pekka


----------



## Jacob (27 Dec 2011)

Pekka Huhta":36s652on said:


> ..... I do not know what's the effect of sugar in heat treating maple,


Caramelisation. You get caramel.


> but on the heat treatment process it is generally the lignin of the wood which starts breaking down and which in fact also causes the change in colour.


I would have thought the cellulose would have been a major player, being chemically not far from sugar, but then I guess it's really complicated with all sorts of interrelated things going on.


----------



## Jacob (27 Dec 2011)

Rob Lee":vqa97obw said:


> ...........
> Basically -it's baking the wood at 170C ( I think that was the temp ) causing the sugars in the maple to caramelise ... Coloring the wood to a very nice brown throughout. Makes the wood very dry too...and hard to turn. I'm not aware of any specific mechanical changes ( as one could have with ash ) ....
> 
> Cheers
> ...


I know nothing about it but having googled it seems that there will very likely be mechanical changes, mainly harder surface and more brittle. Er - not good for a chisel handle surely? Maple is already brittle before you do anything at all.
Machining has to be done first - it sounds a bit like toughening glass and similar processes.

http://www.musterkiste.com/en/holz/stw/ ... _wood.html


----------

