# Floor Tiling Question



## Peter T (19 Jul 2010)

As part of our kitchen re-fit, I'd like to tile the floor with ceramic tiles. 

The floor is green chipboard and floats on polystyrene with a blue plastic membrane visible round the edge. It feels solid to walk on and does not move, squeak, etc. The area to be tiled is roughly 8 square meters. 

Shopping around for tiles we have received all kinds of dire warnings about the problems of tiling onto such a floor, to the point where we have almost given up on the idea! 

I should say that, some years ago, in my ignorance, I tiled our downstairs cloakroom, which has the same floor construction. I used a DIY brand of flexible adhesive/grout. This is a much smaller area and has low traffic but the results have been good, with no cracking or lifting. 

So, my question is, what's the story on tiling onto a floating chipboard floor? Is it really such a problem or are they trying to sell me hyper-expensive products I don't need? 

Just as an example, one place we went to quoted £500 for wall and floor tiles, which is reasonable for the areas we need, plus nother £400 for all the super duper adhesive and grouts they claimed we would need!! Needless to say, we declined their kid offer!!


----------



## Karl (19 Jul 2010)

I think you should be careful.

High flex adhesive and grout is what you need. But £400 for adhesive and grout sounds expensive! Do you know what product they were trying to sell you? I have a couple of trade accounts so could let you know what I pay for it (don't know off the top of my head as it's not an everyday purchase).

Are you going to do it yourself, or get somebody in to do it? 

JasonB is your man on tiling though - he has all the answers :lol: 

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Peter T (19 Jul 2010)

Karl":19ps84rf said:


> I think you should be careful.
> 
> High flex adhesive and grout is what you need. But £400 for adhesive and grout sounds expensive! Do you know what product they were trying to sell you? I have a couple of trade accounts so could let you know what I pay for it (don't know off the top of my head as it's not an everyday purchase).
> 
> ...



Thanks Karl. The expensive floor adhesive was some 2 part stuff that had to be mixed. I don't know the brand name. As soon as he came up with the price, we left in a marked manner!


----------



## paulm (19 Jul 2010)

I used some two part flexible adhesive on a mosaic tiled kitchen worktop years ago, and it was a nightmare to use, really stiff and unworkable. Current stuff might be different though of course.....

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Karl (19 Jul 2010)

Sounds like you've been recommended an epoxy system (I think this is the most flexible of all adhesives). I've never used it, so there ends my "expertise" :lol: 

Hopefully Jason will see this thread later.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Dibs-h (19 Jul 2010)

Peter T":2gxlse11 said:


> As part of our kitchen re-fit, I'd like to tile the floor with ceramic tiles.
> 
> The floor is green chipboard and floats on polystyrene with a blue plastic membrane visible round the edge. It feels solid to walk on and does not move, squeak, etc. The area to be tiled is roughly 8 square meters.
> 
> ...



Schluter do a product called Ditra, a delinking membrane. I'd be tempted to lay ply down first, tying the chipboard together. As for adhesives - Ardex. Look on the website and their product widget will tell you what you need. I've used them extensively in the past - never had an issue and their tech support is good. Ardex Flex 5000 - most recently.

Give Schluter a ring they have a tech department in the UK. I think the £400 is taking the pineapple tho. Ardex products are premium and there are no doubt alternatives, but even with Ardex adhseive\grout I'd be suprised if it weighed in at 1/2 that. And that's with using adhesive to bond the membrane down as well.

HIH

Dibs


----------



## jasonB (19 Jul 2010)

I doubt it was epoxy they were quoting. Much more likely a two part adhesive such as BAL Fastflex which is powder and a laytex type liquid, this is also what BAl suggest for floating floors but most of teh good makes have something similar. It also costs a lot!! about 3 times the price of rapidset.You will also need a very flexible grout which if staying with BAL would be widejoint with GT1 additive.

To do it totally in accordance with BALs suggested method the chipboard should have its underside sealed with SBR and glue the joints when it goes down.

Hard to say what quantities you will need without knowing the tiles as that will affect the notch size and therefore coverage

Jason


----------



## Max Power (19 Jul 2010)

As the chipboard is already down would there be any advantage in overlaying with ply Jason?


----------



## jasonB (19 Jul 2010)

In most cases I would rip up the chipboard and replace with ply or overboard with ply but as the OP says there is no movement and the Fastflex is OK on chipboard I don't see much point.

As the floor floats on the insulation you would not be gaining anything by overboarding as you would still need to use Fastflex due to the movement in the insulation

Fastflex is more like sticking the tiles down with rubber so it will take any slight movement in the floor.

Jason


----------



## Peter T (19 Jul 2010)

Thanks for all the information guys. 

Jason, the tiles we like are 43cm square. 

The guy in the tile shop recommended a 6mm thick cementatious backer board to go over the chipboard. 

Thanks again,


----------



## jasonB (19 Jul 2010)

This is one of the few occasions where you don't really need to overboard if using the right adhesive unless the surface of the chipboard is poor or covered with old vinyl tile adhesive etc. And if what you say about no movement is correct.

At that size tile you should really be using a large format trowel so expect to get 2m2 per bag/bottle of fastflex, BALs quoted coverage is very optimistic so thats about £240 straight away at retail, assuming its just grey and not the white.

I usually find the adhesive is the cheap part of the job, well it is when I've just ordered 10m2 of tiles at £300 sq m :shock: but they do look nice  

Jason


----------



## Peter T (19 Jul 2010)

jasonB":1czbhhka said:


> This is one of the few occasions where you don't really need to overboard if using the right adhesive unless the surface of the chipboard is poor or covered with old vinyl tile adhesive etc. And if what you say about no movement is correct.
> 
> At that size tile you should really be using a large format trowel so expect to get 2m2 per bag/bottle of fastflex, BALs quoted coverage is very optimistic so thats about £240 straight away at retail, assuming its just grey and not the white.
> 
> ...


 
There is a vinyl floor covering down at the moment which is pretty well stuck down. I guess this means that the floor is covered with old adhesive!! 

Our tiles are more modestly priced at about £35 per sq m, but they still look quite nice. 

Thanks,


----------



## Doug B (19 Jul 2010)

Peter.

Topps tiles do their own version of the bal 2 part fastflex (probably made by palace) which is also a polymer based flexible adhesive & a lot cheaper than the bal.

Bal have also bought out a single part flexible adhesive, i`ve only used it once on floorboards, but it seemed very similar to the 2 part, but considerably cheaper.

As for grout, Bal do a flexible super grout, so you don`t need to worry about adding ad mix.

On your floor, i would just remove the existing flooring & tile straight over with which ever adhesive you choose, no need for over boarding.

8 square meters, laid solid bed, you shouldn`t be looking at more than £100 for adhesive & grout.


Cheers.

Doug.


----------



## Lons (19 Jul 2010)

jasonB":3jiau5mm said:


> In most cases I would rip up the chipboard and replace with ply or overboard with ply but as the OP says there is no movement and the Fastflex is OK on chipboard I don't see much point.
> 
> As the floor floats on the insulation you would not be gaining anything by overboarding as you would still need to use Fastflex due to the movement in the insulation
> 
> ...



Hi Jason

In my experience, the chipboard used on a floating floor is usually 18mm V313 t&g and the pippers rarely glue the joints properly. 
I haven't found one yet thet doesn't flex a bit underfoot. (very recent build might be 22mm which is better.)

For this reason, I always screw an 18mm subbase to the chipboard before laying tiles.

The last thing I would ever risk is call back to a job and the associated costs and reputation damage because of poor preparation.

Just my tuppence worth.

Bob


----------



## jasonB (20 Jul 2010)

Lons.

Without seeing the floor its very had to say what its like which is why in a couple of my replies I have said something along the lines of "the OP says its firm" but one persons firm is another bouncy castle. Kitchens are probaly the worse place for this typoe of floor as they may not seem to flex when walked on but when you roll a range oven or washing machine over them its a big loading. Also as budget seems an issue I was suggesting the minimum. 

Doug

If you are refering to BALs Superflex grout then it is nowere near as flexible as one with 50/50 water GT1 mix and again all the powder only flexible adhesives will not be as flexible as Fastflex which is almost like rubber.


----------



## Peter T (20 Jul 2010)

Thanks for all the info guys, much appreciated. 

This sounds like a difficult one and I fully understand that, what I may think of as a solid floor, a professional flooring guy may see as a bouncy castle. 

Ripping up the floor is not an option. If tiling is a no-no, we'll just go for something else. 

I do still think that the floor is reasonably solid. There is certainly no deterioration of the chipboard surface from water etc. I could board over it with 12mm thick ply or whatever. Anything thicker would start to be a problem. Would that need to be screwed AND glued to existing floor? 

As it happens, the wall tiles we found yesterday have turned out to be "not quite" the right colour (wife speak for "I've changed my mind"), so we have to look for some more which takes the pressure of the floor problem a bit. 

Thanks again,


----------



## Mcluma (20 Jul 2010)

Peter T

Id did a floor in a kithcen a few months ago on chipboard and floorboards

and i took in lots and lots of advise from professional tilers

I ended up puting 6mm marmox board on it, 

you can get the marmox in different thickness

Marmox are cement based boards with insulation in it, and are 60cm by 120 you screw them every 30cm down with special screws and washers

this will help to stabilaze the floor and will tremendously help in the grip of tiling

I put the marmox boards down with a good tileadhesive and then screwed them down

I see if i can find some pictures of it

But it is a no no to put the boards down on the chipboard, yes you can put marine ply down 6mm then marmox and then tile

As said before you floor needs to be rock solid


----------



## Doug B (20 Jul 2010)

jasonB":3bebf5qw said:


> Doug
> 
> If you are refering to BALs Superflex grout then it is nowere near as flexible as one with 50/50 water GT1 mix and again all the powder only flexible adhesives will not be as flexible as Fastflex which is almost like rubber.



Jason.

I agree GT1 is a very good admix, i used it for many years myself, but since Bal developed their superflex grouts for use with their flexible adhesives, i`ve never had the need to use GT1, since the superflex has always worked very satisfactorily.

I would have also agreed with you on the the two part fastflex being more flexible than the powder only flexibles, that was until i recently used Bal`s new single part fastflex.
When mixed it would be very difficult to tell the 2 apart, they even smell the same, i was assured when i first bought it that it was as good as the original 2 part, it certainly appeared to be. 

Cheers.

Doug.


----------



## Lons (20 Jul 2010)

jasonB":28d8vbbp said:


> Lons.
> 
> Without seeing the floor its very had to say what its like which is why in a couple of my replies I have said something along the lines of "the OP says its firm" but one persons firm is another bouncy castle. Kitchens are probaly the worse place for this typoe of floor as they may not seem to flex when walked on but when you roll a range oven or washing machine over them its a big loading. Also as budget seems an issue I was suggesting the minimum.
> 
> ...



Yes Jason

It wasn't a critiscism in any way as you clearly know what you're talking about.
Biggest problem is comunication with custmers and I find you have to spell it out as if they're 5 years old sometimes.

I'm moving a stud wall for a customer as part of a job. Got there this morning and the lady of the house says "questions from my husband (an accountant). will you be leaving the plasterboard walls as they are or fitting skirting to the bottom and coving to the ceiling?"

I've got to match in both to existing ! - f****** stupid question

My response was - he's winding me up - no such thing though - he meant it :? :? Dozey git!

Bob


----------



## Peter T (24 Jul 2010)

Had our flooring/carpet guy round this morning and we've decided to ditch the ceramic tiles and go for Karndean floor tiles, and he's going to lay them so I don't have to do anything






Thanks for all the help anyway, I'll let you know how it turns out.


----------

