# Can you pump sound insulation into a stud wall?



## Triggaaar (19 Oct 2009)

Obviously you can pump thermal insulation into cavity walls etc, but I have a job where the sound insulation in some stud walls is not enough, and I have to fix it. I could remove the plasterboard and add insulation, or add more plasterboard to that which is there, but as it's a finished property these options are messy and may require re-doing a lot of skirting/architrave/door linings etc.

If anyone has any useful tips, I could be forever in your debt.

Thanks


----------



## Dibs-h (20 Oct 2009)

stud walls are like biscuit tins - no matter how dense you make the top and bottom (obviously there's a limit) sound loves air. I would suspect any batt (or similar) type insulation would noticeably reduct the sound be transmitted thru.

I wonder whether you could use the stuff that is used for external cavity insulation - it's blown in and in theory should reduce the transmission of sound thru the cavity. Next time you see on of those Dyson insulation vans - you could always ask the chaps.


----------



## Daven (20 Oct 2009)

Sound will also travel under and over the wall, so if the wall is on floor boards you may need to get under there as well as the ceiling void!

I have looked into this for our house as the bathroom wall has one stud partition - it was insulated with rockwool when built by the builders so injecting would not work for me!

So far the cost and disruption has stopped me doing anything about it - there is a rubber sheet system you can hang, but that would mean adding another skin which need to be fixed so the sound will not transfer through the studs  

Edit - have a look at this The FAQ's are useful and state it is possible but you would have to be careful!!

Dave


----------



## Triggaaar (20 Oct 2009)

Thanks guys.

I'm told the builders put a bit of inferior insulation in the walls, which wouldn't help with pumping, and speaking to a couple of sound insulation companies this morning it seems that pumping isn't much of an option anyway. But some of the accoustic mineral wool is quite dense and could do the job even if only 50mm deep. So I think I'll need to remove a couple of walls of plasterboard and re-do it, which is messy, but at least leaves the skirting, door linings etc, so it's not too bad.


----------



## MikeG. (20 Oct 2009)

Before you rip the plasterboard off, you could try Warmcell, http://www.excelfibre.com/building/products3.html which is made from recycled newsprint. This can be pumped quite densely, and would simply mean 1 or 2 50mm holes per void. I would also take the skirting off one side and spray expanding foam in any gap.

Mike


----------



## big soft moose (20 Oct 2009)

I think the problem with blowing stuff into stud walls is that the studs divide them up into a lot of small cells so you'd have a hells own job getting it into all parts of the wall (unlike a cavity wall which is basically one big void)


i think you are pretty much going to have to resign yourself to taking one side of the wall apart


----------



## head clansman (20 Oct 2009)

hi mike


Is this paper blown product any good for in a workshop , if not is there a company that can spray foam into the stud spacings in the same way .

reason i ask is my workshop is built and all stud 100*50mm walls are lined inside with 18mm mdf on the outside with 12 mm marine ply, the inner lining i dont really want to take down to install foam sheeting, the roof rafters at the moment are still open which i can place foam sheeting into if i choose to ,seeing it a workshop i don't mind seeing the foam infill in the roof space, I had been pondering this idea now for some time when i read this tread, any ideas would be a help. hc


----------



## MikeG. (20 Oct 2009)

Yes Martin, it would be fine. It is a brilliant product.

Mike


----------



## Dibs-h (20 Oct 2009)

Mike Garnham":q361mgb6 said:


> Yes Martin, it would be fine. It is a brilliant product.
> 
> Mike



That product is big in the US\Canada.


----------



## Triggaaar (20 Oct 2009)

Mike Garnham":1ebehgbl said:


> Before you rip the plasterboard off, you could try Warmcell, http://www.excelfibre.com/building/products3.html which is made from recycled newsprint.


That's a great find Mike, thanks (I've heard of warmcel, didn't know they also did soundcel). I don't know whether they can pump into walls that already have some insulation, or if that stops it working, but I shall try and find out.


----------



## MikeG. (20 Oct 2009)

Triggaaar":2kr1coqi said:


> I've heard of warmcel, didn't know they also did soundcel



They can easily adjust the density of the product. It is a good sound insulant, (the denser the better there), but is primarily used as a thermal insulation. If the existing insulant fully fills the gap then you may need to drill some extra holes, but it is pumped in at a pretty decent pressure and should push the existing out of the way. 

You might find it pricey for a small job, because of the set-up costs on site......I've no idea though.

Mike


----------



## head clansman (20 Oct 2009)

HI Mike 

thanks , thats great , I'll keep that web link , using that will solve a lot of problem with moving everything and a great deal of work to boot as well .hc :wink:


----------



## Triggaaar (20 Oct 2009)

Mike Garnham":vhb7okdn said:


> They can easily adjust the density of the product. It is a good sound insulant, (the denser the better there), but is primarily used as a thermal insulation. If the existing insulant fully fills the gap then you may need to drill some extra holes, but it is pumped in at a pretty decent pressure and should push the existing out of the way.


I've tried one of the installers who hadn't heard of the soundcel, but they're getting back to me, as it should be the same process with the same machines. I don't know if it'll be capable of pushing/working its way around the rolls of insulation that are in there, but if it is it could be a great option for my needs - particularly if I can use it between floors as well.


----------



## wizer (20 Oct 2009)

is there a reason stud walls are not insulated as standard?


----------



## MikeG. (20 Oct 2009)

Penny-pinching, laziness, stupidity, forgetfulness......all sorts of reasons Tom.

They are always filled on my jobs.

Mike


----------



## wizer (20 Oct 2009)

oh ok, so there's no technical reason not to do it? Didn't know that. Will vow always to do it in the future on recommendation from the Great Garnham.

Mike you coming down to Weymouth on Sat? I know you're itching to see the tools and the tool cabinet. Come on, it'll be fun.


----------



## Triggaaar (20 Oct 2009)

wizer":xoelg6iy said:


> is there a reason stud walls are not insulated as standard?





Mike Garnham":xoelg6iy said:


> Penny-pinching, laziness, stupidity, forgetfulness......all sorts of reasons Tom.


In the case of the job I've got to fix, it was mainly number 1 and number 3. Absolute idiots. They put insulation in, just not (nowhere near) good enough


----------



## MikeG. (20 Oct 2009)

Triggaaar":35sj5um1 said:


> I've tried one of the installers who hadn't heard of the soundcel.



That'll be because there is no such product!

It is called Warmcell (probably Warmcell 100 or 500 to be precise), but it is a great sound insulant to. Just tell them to pump it in densly. 

Obviously you'll have to take the advice of the installer as to what influence the existing insulation will have on his ability to get his stuff spread fully around the voids.

Mike


----------



## Triggaaar (20 Oct 2009)

Mike Garnham":2v6jqdqm said:


> That'll be because there is no such product!
> 
> It is called Warmcell (probably Warmcell 100 or 500 to be precise), but it is a great sound insulant to. Just tell them to pump it in densly.


Ah, thank you. Yeah I need to make sure it improves the sound insulation enough, as it will be tested.

EDIT - from their website "Soundcel’s acoustic performance is derived from this same raw material base, where the fibre length has been re-engineered for optimised sound absorption" - if they're not making it up the installers would need to make sure they had the right product


----------



## MikeG. (20 Oct 2009)

OOOOOOOhhh hang on a minute!

In that case you will probably need that wall designed by a specialist consultant. You don't want to put the work in, with your money on the line, and then have someone tell you it doesn't match up to standards. 

You can look in "The White Book" (by a well known manufacturer of plasterboards etc), to see the acoustic performance of a variety of wall types. You may well end up double-tacking the wall as well as insulating......all of which suggests you might well be better off taking the plasterboard off one side. 

I had assumed you were just doing your best to sort an internal wall out.......the danger of giving advice over the internet I guess!

Don't blame me......a big boy did it and ran away, honest!!

Mike

PS Soundcel is a new one to me! Thanks.


----------



## Triggaaar (20 Oct 2009)

Mike Garnham":gotd1hg9 said:


> In that case you will probably need that wall designed by a specialist consultant. You don't want to put the work in, with your money on the line, and then have someone tell you it doesn't match up to standards.


The only standard it has to reach is bld regs 2006 (for internal walls, not party walls) which isn't much, and makes getting it wrong in the first place even more inexcusable. 75mm of std rockwool would've done it, and that's not very dense. Should easily be able to do it with some of the denser products on the market, and this soundcel may well do it too, I'd just need to check first.



> You may well end up double-tacking the wall as well as insulating......all of which suggests you might well be better off taking the plasterboard off one side.


Yes, double tacking is an option I have to avoid.



> I had assumed you were just doing your best to sort an internal wall out.......the danger of giving advice over the internet I guess!


Don't panic, wasn't just going to through money at it without doing some checks first. I'll call excel tomorrow and see what they think.


----------



## MikeG. (20 Oct 2009)

Phew!!

Carry on then Triggaaar. I just relaxed.........

Tom,

I have to say that I did consider going to Weymouth on Saturday, and it nearly came even closer today.....long story concerning a dead plotter.........but I am in the middle of some serious work on a prototype of something I hope to manufacture commercially, and I am approaching the denoument! With my plotter causing the loss of 2 days work this week I am short of spare time for a while. 

That amounts to a long way of saying no!

Mike


----------



## wizer (20 Oct 2009)

Spoil sport. Remember me when you're a miwyonair :wink:


----------



## Dibs-h (21 Oct 2009)

Just had a local'ish firm (Sheffield) call back - they've quoted £12.50 (+vat) per sqm of wall space based on a 4" (more like 95mm in new money) stud. Can't see huge variation nationally.


----------



## Triggaaar (22 Oct 2009)

Mike Garnham":j6prm8lg said:


> PS Soundcel is a new one to me!


Ah, well it seems you were right in the first place. They tell me that they originally changed the structure slightly, but that that became the standard for warmcel, so it is now the same product after all, at a higher density (so their website is a little misleading).

But unfortunately they're not sure how it would do if your cavity is already partly filled with poor quality insulation, and they wouldn't usually take on a job like that.

I wonder if you could suck the old insulation through the new 32mm holes


----------



## Digit (22 Oct 2009)

> I think the problem with blowing stuff into stud walls is that the studs divide them up into a lot of small cells so you'd have a hells own job getting it into all parts of the wall (unlike a cavity wall which is basically one big void)



That's my problem BSM as I live in a timber bungalow. But I'm working on it. By sheer good luck, I was on an errand for a friend, I found a local company selling Warmcell, and if I live long enough to finish the damned kitchen roof that's the next job, plus seconday DG of course.
Gas man eat your heart out!

Roy.


----------

