# Cheap, Hard Point Rip Tenon Saws?



## J_SAMa (8 Apr 2013)

Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ). Anyways, I figured it was time I bought a rip tenon saw. I'm going to use it for cutting tenons on the stretchers in my new workbench. I do already have a Veritas dovetail saw, really nice but its only got 37 mm of cutting depths.

I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts? I know there's plenty "tenon saws" on the market but nobody said a word about whether if they work along the grain. I would try to avoid antiques this time, I wouldn't dare to sharpen one or whatnot, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a saw doctor in my neighborhood.

I've been splitting and paring all my tenons, it works OK, but some grains just don't pare well, and it's always nice to have two options, just in case.

Sam


----------



## carlb40 (8 Apr 2013)

Not sure on a rip cut hard point saw. I think most are designed for cross cut. However sharpening a rip cut hand saw from what i have seen/read is the easiest of them all. As it filed at 90 degrees to the saw with or without any slight angle to it.


----------



## GazPal (8 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":2ns0fzrr said:


> Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
> I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ). Anyways, I figured it was time I bought a rip tenon saw. I'm going to use it for cutting tenons on the stretchers in my new workbench. I do already have a Veritas dovetail saw, really nice but its only got 37 mm of cutting depths.
> 
> I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts? I know there's plenty "tenon saws" on the market but nobody said a word about whether if they work along the grain. I would try to avoid antiques this time, I wouldn't dare to sharpen one or whatnot, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a saw doctor in my neighborhood.
> ...



Which S&J hand saw did you buy? Universal teeth can normally handle rip cutting such as tenon work.

Chopping and paring are the easiest option when cutting tenons, unless the grain runs in all directions. I often use my half hatchet to chop larger tenons, before finishing them with a chisel.

Can you sharpen saws yet? If not, it's a skill well worth learning and one you'll need if you need a rip filed tenon saw, but have a tight/restrictive budget, although you'll need a saw file (4", 5" or 6" extra slim for tenon saws) and 8" mill file for your sharpening. Hardpoints can be re-sharpened, but with variable results and can tend to knock hell out of standard saw files. Diamond triangular needle files work on hardpoint teeth.


----------



## Aled Dafis (8 Apr 2013)

I don't think that I've ever come across a hard point tenon (or any other for that matter) in a rip tooth configuration. 

It's a sad state of affairs, but unfortunately, your only options are

1. Buy a new "proper" saw in a rip cut configuration - Expensive but easy
This is the cheapest option I can think of, but i may be wrong http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Atkinson_Walker_168_Tenon_Saw_12_inch_13tpi_Rip_Cut.html

2. Buy an old tennon saw and learn to sharpen it in a rip configuration - Cheap but more work (also more rewarding)
Here's a pretty good PDF document on sharpening, http://www.workshopheaven.com/library/Workshop-Heaven-Saw-Sharpening-Instructions.pdf Workshop Heaven also have a few good Youtube videos on sharpening

3. Buy a japanese saw in a rip configuration
This is a good place to start, but as always there are many options out there http://www.woodworkprojects.co.uk/index.htm#!/~/category/id=556702&offset=0&sort=normal

Cheers
Aled


----------



## J_SAMa (8 Apr 2013)

GazPal":1w508f5n said:


> J_SAMa":1w508f5n said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
> ...



Hi Gary,
It's this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B002TYZMKS
I think I've read that some of the Irwin Jack saws are truly "universal". But I don't want to take the risk only to find out that it's not.
Is saw sharpening easy to learn? I mean, is it possible to destroy the saw? Also what would I need that mill file for?
Sam


----------



## carlb40 (8 Apr 2013)

Have a look through these vidoe's 

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Sha ... video.html


----------



## Aled Dafis (8 Apr 2013)

Saw sharpening is pretty easy to learn, but beware that sharpening is only really possible on traditional saws. Your "hardpoint" saw will have it's teeth impulse hardened to such a level of hardness that it will probably damage the file, rather than the file cut the saw.

I once tried to file the edge of a laser cut piece of tool steel not realising that the laser cutting process had hardened the edge to such an extent that it took the teeth right off a brand new 14" turnip file in a matter of a couple of strokes!

Aled


----------



## Jacob (8 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":14253foh said:


> Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
> I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ).


By 'apparently' do you mean you have tried it or are you just going by what you've read? Should be able to rip if it's any good and not too many tpi.
Similarly a rip filed saw will cross cut (if it has enough tpi). Some people prefer to use rip for everything. They aren't that different until you come to major ripping exercises like splitting a board through the thickness)


> ....
> I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts?


Non as such, but a general purpose saw should rip OK


----------



## GazPal (8 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":1tzi9ea3 said:


> Hi Gary,
> It's this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B002TYZMKS
> I think I've read that some of the Irwin Jack saws are truly "universal". But I don't want to take the risk only to find out that it's not.
> Is saw sharpening easy to learn? I mean, is it possible to destroy the saw? Also what would I need that mill file for?
> Sam



I own and use a selection of S&J Predator handsaws for outdoor use and have no complaints in terms of cutting ability when cross cutting and ripping, but do tend to prefer their 7 ppi "First Fix" saw for larger tenon work. Irwin Jack saws are good all rounders too, with my favourites from their selection being their tenon saws. They cut and hold their edge well.

Saw sharpening is surprisingly easy to learn, but it's a case of taking your time while concentrating on what you're doing. While easy to sharpen, it's also just as easy to ruin a saw if you're not careful, but most mistakes are readily remedied.

A mill file is used when topping/jointing the toothline (Effectively bring the tips of the teeth to an even straight or breasted plain) prior to shaping and sharpening the teeth.


----------



## Dangermouse (9 Apr 2013)

A point to remember is that a non hard point saw, a vintage or a good modern one is a saw for life, the hard point are, use, get blunt, through away. I'd use one on site, but I'd never use one in the workshop. The joy of learning how to joint and sharpen and then doing it, is wonderful and a part of woodworking, just like sharping a chisel or plane blade. Would anyone here still use the Stanley no RB10 just because it comes with replaceable blades and they are afraid to try sharpening a plane blade ? That's what woodwork and cabinet making is all about, the challenge of learning and doing.


----------



## GazPal (9 Apr 2013)

Dangermouse":395mo901 said:


> A point to remember is that a non hard point saw, a vintage or a good modern one is a saw for life, the hard point are, use, get blunt, through away. I'd use one on site, but I'd never use one in the workshop. The joy of learning how to joint and sharpen and then doing it, is wonderful and a part of woodworking, just like sharping a chisel or plane blade. Would anyone here still use the Stanley no RB10 just because it comes with replaceable blades and they are afraid to try sharpening a plane blade ? That's what woodwork and cabinet making is all about, the challenge of learning and doing.



Agreed 500%, although I've never used an RB10.  

I think hardpoint saws have their place and work extremely well in comparison to when they first came into play when they were prone to jamming and shedding teeth if you sneezed in their direction. I still own and use my first saws and couldn't agree more when it boils down to investing in ones with good taper ground blades. Saw teeth are extremely easy to touch up during use and a good saw plate can take one heck of a lot of re-sharpening throughout it's lifetime. More so if you take care and use a light touch with the file.

Investing in a decent saw slip and/or tooth guard tends to heavily influence edge life. 3in1 keeps the rust at bay.


----------



## bugbear (9 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":cvtls19g said:


> Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
> I've purchased a Spear and Jackson handsaw about 7 months ago and apparently it's impossible to do rip cuts with this saw (despite that Amazon described it as suitable for cross and rip cuts, false advertising :evil: ). Anyways, I figured it was time I bought a rip tenon saw. I'm going to use it for cutting tenons on the stretchers in my new workbench. I do already have a Veritas dovetail saw, really nice but its only got 37 mm of cutting depths.
> 
> I'm on a budget here, so any suggestions for cheap hard point tenon saws that can do rip cuts? I know there's plenty "tenon saws" on the market but nobody said a word about whether if they work along the grain. I would try to avoid antiques this time, I wouldn't dare to sharpen one or whatnot, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a saw doctor in my neighborhood.
> ...



A dedicated rip cutting tenon is a refined creature of old textbooks, recommended pretty much as a dedicated tenon cheek cutter.

In the modern era, a hardpoint saw is a jack of all trades.

Your saw will make rip and cross cuts - just not quite as well as a more specialised saw.

If you want a "perfect tool" (they're very nice  )you'll not find it in cheap hardpoints.

If you want to saw tenon cheeks - your saw will do.

BugBear


----------



## J_SAMa (9 Apr 2013)

Jacob":3escugtu said:


> J_SAMa":3escugtu said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all, (I've been starting a lot of threads recently haven't I...)
> ...


Hi Jacob,
I've tried it. It sort of cuts, but very slowly. It's 10 tpi and cuts about 20 mm deep in 18 mm material in 30 strokes... Whereas my 14 tpi dovetail saw does the same in 9 strokes. Now imagine using that saw for 80 mm wide, 90 mm long tenons...

Actually I just found this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SPEAR ... 20d1203b4c
Seller says it's been set and sharpened. It's a good buy right?

Sam


----------



## Jacob (9 Apr 2013)

Yes it's no good then! Not sure which (new) one to recommend but it is out there somewhere.
But if you are intending to hand saw a lot of tenons just buy an old tenon saw with fewer than say 10 tpi and sharpen it as a rip saw. Quite easy and a good investment in skill building.


----------



## Richard T (9 Apr 2013)

I may be missing something Sam but I can't see that saw on ebay being described as having been sharpened as rip. ??


----------



## bugbear (9 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":1edkbnkw said:


> Actually I just found this:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SPEAR ... 20d1203b4c
> Buyer says it's been set and sharpened. It's a good buy right?
> 
> Sam



A long as it's a good price. Leap frog was their cheap line (but all things are relative)

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=42574

Edit; you know what? I think their branding usage changed. I've just been having a bit of a google, and later saws (say 1920-1950) with the "leap frog" name show each and every indicator I look for in a top quality saw.

BugBear


----------



## pedder (9 Apr 2013)

bugbear":3d47ts2r said:


> [
> Edit; you know what? I think their branding usage changed. I've just been having a bit of a google, and later saws (say 1920-1950) with the "leap frog" name show each and every indicator I look for in a top quality saw.



S&J are the most underrated saws IMHO. And I take leap frog as a quality mark. The later saws went downhill, but most leap frog saws available are nice! (HEAVY Spines)

Cheers 
Pedder


----------



## Jacob (9 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":1zrmppy1 said:


> Actually I just found this:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SPEAR ... 20d1203b4c
> Buyer says it's been set and sharpened. It's a good buy right?
> 
> Sam


Looks like expensive junk to me with that bent back.*
But S&J generally excellent Plenty of alternatives out there. 
This looks good.
Or if you are going to sharpen yourself just get something cheap, perhaps steel back instead of brass.
Some interesting junk here- perfect for sharpening practice (and as usable tools)

PS perhaps it's just the photo in which case it could be good.


----------



## Eric The Viking (9 Apr 2013)

GazPal":2n7y4uxp said:


> Irwin Jack saws are good all rounders too, with my favourites from their selection being their tenon saws. They cut and hold their edge well.



I've got an Irwin tenon saw I've been hanging onto for ages. It's blunt-ish, but I'm wondering if I can temper the teeth and sharpen it.

More to the point, the reason I haven't thrown it out is that Toolstation stopped selling them. They must have been crazy. I've since tried Bahco (too lightweight) and Predator (simply dreadful), but the size and weight of the Irwin one was just spot on for me.

Do you get yours from a local supplier, or someone who does mail order? Even with postage it's worth it for general use. For fine work I have S+J brass-backed...

E.


----------



## xy mosian (9 Apr 2013)

Tempering could be fun. I wonder if there would be any mileage in cutting the hard bit off and forming new teeth?
xy


----------



## GazPal (9 Apr 2013)

Eric The Viking":15to7210 said:


> GazPal":15to7210 said:
> 
> 
> > Irwin Jack saws are good all rounders too, with my favourites from their selection being their tenon saws. They cut and hold their edge well.
> ...



Hi E,

I've been getting mine via mail order http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370683871931? ... 1438.l2649 , but used to nip into town for them as a local tool shop had them in stock for a good while.

If anything, rather than try adjusting the heat treatment on your Irwin (Jack?) tenon saw, I'd consider jointing the teeth and re-tooth it from fresh. Possibly too much bother, but the saw plate is already tensioned and made from good steel.

My personal preferences for saws are S&J (Typically either Professional or 88's), Tyzack (Nonpareil) and Disston (D8's). I've also a few C 19th saws by S&J and Disston and they're very decent users too, although I do prefer S&J's jubilee saw.


----------



## GazPal (9 Apr 2013)

xy mosian":2m9w1jvh said:


> Tempering could be fun. I wonder if there would be any mileage in cutting the hard bit off and forming new teeth?
> xy




The unfortunate downside to drawing temper any further would be the subsequent need to re-harden to precisely the right level and re-temper so the resulting hardness holds a resilient edge without being brittle.


----------



## Eric The Viking (9 Apr 2013)

I was thinking about leaving it fairly soft, so it worked as an ordinary, not hardened, set of teeth. Silly idea probably. My only experience is re-tempering chisels, which worked all right but they're much easer to heat than a line of teeth on the edge of a saw with a plastic handle!

It's a shame really as they do cut nicely (when they're new). I'll investigate eBay.

E.

(later... Ouch, that's costly for a 'disposable' saw... 

later still... Ah, they have the one I've got at £15 incl. - better!)


----------



## J_SAMa (9 Apr 2013)

What about this one? Looks pretty clean at least.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Superb-14-Bra ... 0760629346
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And for those people who say their hardpoint saws are good all-rounders, what specific models are you talking about? By being "all-rounder" do you mean that they could rip tenon cheeks and cut shoulders?

I found this Jack saw that is sold as "universal". It's a non-backed handsaw, but in Paul Sellers' workbench videos he cut some tenons with this kind of saw too...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/jack-irwin-e ... rod901345/
Sam


----------



## Aled Dafis (9 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":3rrmy9r1 said:


> And for those people who say their hardpoint saws are good all-rounders, what specific models are you talking about? By being "all-rounder" do you mean that they could rip tenon cheeks and cut shoulders?
> 
> I found this Jack saw that is sold as "universal". It's a non-backed handsaw, but in Paul Sellers' workbench videos he cut some tenons with this kind of saw too...
> http://www.axminster.co.uk/jack-irwin-e ... rod901345/
> Sam



I can't see how it would be "flush cutting" unless it has no set, in which case, it's probably useless at everything else it's meant to do...

My rule of thumb with older "proper" tenon saws (given that the saw plate is in good nick) is to look for a comfy looking handle and a nicely made brass back, If the maker has taken the time to get these right, the chances are that it's a good saw.


----------



## GazPal (9 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":2h3avpxu said:


> What about this one? Looks pretty clean at least.
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Superb-14-Bra ... 0760629346
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> And for those people who say their hardpoint saws are good all-rounders, what specific models are you talking about? By being "all-rounder" do you mean that they could rip tenon cheeks and cut shoulders?
> ...




That would be a good choice and could well be an example from Tyzack's "Nonpareil" line up. The S&J you considered earlier appeared to have problems with it's brass back and it normally follows that it would also have a kink or two in it's saw plate.

------------

The all rounders I use are S&J "Predator" and Irwin "Jack" tenon saws, but you can't really go too far wrong if you stick with well known makers.


----------



## GazPal (9 Apr 2013)

Aled Dafis":2a1s05lv said:


> J_SAMa":2a1s05lv said:
> 
> 
> > And for those people who say their hardpoint saws are good all-rounders, what specific models are you talking about? By being "all-rounder" do you mean that they could rip tenon cheeks and cut shoulders?
> ...



Quite a few well made saws came with zero set and lack of set normally lends itself to improved performance in harder timbers.


----------



## Eric The Viking (9 Apr 2013)

I think I mentioned that I really, really don't get on with the S+J Predator tenon saws - too short, too lightweight and badly balanced. 

Axminster don't seem to stock the Irwin Jack ones that I like. Irwins are 12" and 14" at 12 TPI, which is good enough for most things. I can't understand why the naff ones are easy to find whereas the better ones aren't.

Oddly, I've also got a couple of really old own-brand Screwfix ones (from before they were bought out), which I was given. They're surprisingly good, although shorter and lighter than the Irwin ones.

E.


----------



## GazPal (9 Apr 2013)

Eric The Viking":2i73o1ii said:


> I was thinking about leaving it fairly soft, so it worked as an ordinary, not hardened, set of teeth. Silly idea probably. My only experience is re-tempering chisels, which worked all right but they're much easer to heat than a line of teeth on the edge of a saw with a plastic handle!
> 
> It's a shame really as they do cut nicely (when they're new). I'll investigate eBay.
> 
> ...



You can always de-tooth the saw plate and re-tooth to the same ppi and set or alter ppi and go for rip instead of cross-cut.  

The beauty with those Irwin Jack tenon saws is they cut nicely and have a good thin saw plate/minimal kerf. If memory serves me right, I think they're also available also in 10" and 12" lengths.  

I used to find myself roped into re-hardening and tempering a lot of chisels when I was a kid, as my dad was a stonemason and used to pay me ten bob to work on a selection of his chisels each weekend. 

Sometimes S&J Predator saws feel too aggressively set (Hard starters in the cut), but I pass them across to my son to use for a day or two and they soon calm down after a few crosscuts, etc..  I couldn't agree more regarding their being too short if ripping. In comparison to my everyday saws (S&J 88's) there's no comparison in terms of balance and general feel during use.


----------



## J_SAMa (10 Apr 2013)

Hi Gary,
Is this the predator saw you were talking about? It's good for ripping tenon cheeks right? 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B001E19U8W
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone had any experience with Bahco's "superior" tenon saws or Stanley's FatMax? How do they rip?
I looked for Irwin Jack tenon saws, no luck...
Sam


----------



## carlb40 (10 Apr 2013)

Irwin tenon saws here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Hand-Tools-/4 ... +tenon+saw

If i get chance this week, i will pop into the shop by me called - toolman 
http://www.toolmanyardley.co.uk/

They are the cheapest by far for saws, it is where i get mine from. I can look and see if they do the predator 1st fix saws? I know they sell the predator saws and normally they have some stock of the irwin tenon saws. However it is normally pot luck as to whether the 250mm or 300mm is stocked.


----------



## GazPal (10 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":3ab4q4no said:


> Hi Gary,
> Is this the predator saw you were talking about? It's good for ripping tenon cheeks right?
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B001E19U8W
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



Hi Sam,

Yes, that's the one and I definitely find their first fix saws tend to perform very well on large tenon and general ripping work. For smaller tenon work I'd definitely use tenon saw. A larger tooth count tends to improve how they perform when ripping soft and hard woods. A good professional quality rip saw will tend to have something like 6-7 ppi and less set for hardwoods and between 4-6ppi and heavier set for softwoods.

Bahco definitely make good saws and bought out Sandvik (If memory serves), but I can't speak for their two part saws - of which their Superior range is a sample. 

I've no experience of Stanley's FatMax range.

Irwin Jack tenon saw http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370683871931? ... 1438.l2649


----------



## Eric The Viking (10 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":mqx47teh said:


> Anyone had any experience with Bahco's "superior" tenon saws or Stanley's FatMax? How do they rip? I looked for Irwin Jack tenon saws, no luck...
> Sam



Bahco - OK but lightweight (you might fold something like lead sheet over the back to help this). Mine is tolerable
Predator (TENON) saw: too short, too lightweight, as Gary says, too aggressive.
Irwin Jack tenon saw - just right (for me!).

Hope that makes sense now.

E.


----------



## J_SAMa (10 Apr 2013)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000 ... ROKL5A1OLE
Well, look what I just found... Surprisingly enough, Bahco still makes a traditional, sharpenable saw. Doesn't come with a wooden handle or anything, but is a good saw to learn my sharpening on...


----------



## Jelly (12 Apr 2013)

I've found Bahco's Prof-cut saws to be very good quality, I have one of their gent's saws and a couple of 24" saws which are ostensibly to save the nice ones from nasty work... but in practice they're almost as good, perhaps a little more aggressive than I like to file my saws.


----------



## Jacob (12 Apr 2013)

Draper super cut are good for cross cutting (stay sharp for a very long time) but don't seem to rip at all well. I think the Jap pattern teeth clog up too easily, something more open is better - hence the 4 to 6 tpi on a trad rip saw.


----------



## Jelly (12 Apr 2013)

Jacob":1gcnj751 said:


> something more open is better - hence the 4 to 6 tpi on a trad rip saw.



One of my saws is filed at 2.25 tpi with a slight positive rake, the big gullet makes it effective even on deep resawing (like 10" deep purpleheart) but it's such a 'blunt instument'* that for accurate work it can be neccessary to create a straight kerf for it to run in with a finer saw first.

*Figuratively...


----------



## GazPal (13 Apr 2013)

J_SAMa":1k5kz23h said:


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0001IX8MI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE
> Well, look what I just found... Surprisingly enough, Bahco still makes a traditional, sharpenable saw. Doesn't come with a wooden handle or anything, but is a good saw to learn my sharpening on...



It may be a traditionally re-sharpenable saw, but it isn't taper ground or handled in the same manner.

The asking price is almost halfway toward that of a reasonable new professional quality saw. I'd rather recommend you buy a second hand *S&J 88/Professional* as it will have the added advantage in it's taper ground blade. They're also very often less than £15 on evilbay and in virtually pristine condition. The reason they're so inexpensive is the fact they're often overlooked in favour of saws by Disston, in spite of being IMHO equal in blade quality.


----------

