# Metal - friends or foes



## sawtooth-9 (18 Sep 2022)

This is an invitation for all to contribute their experiences with different metals.
Having watched this site for several years now, it appears that we all have difficulties with some metals.
To me, it's just a case of understanding the "beast" we are dealing with.
Woodworkers will understand how to deal with different timbers, so as metal workers, we need to do the same.

My favourite metal is stainless steel, followed closely by a good quality cast iron. They are utterly different, but once you "get the feel " they are a delight to work with. Cast iron is beautiful to machine, because you can feel and hear when it is cutting well.
Stainless requires slow constant cutting, then it "peels" beautifully. ( Tapping threads can be difficult, but you learn ).

Brass is almost too easy, but gives pleasing results. Copper requires a little more caring with the tooling.
Aluminium has its place - I very rarely use it.
Mild steel is my least favourite metal. I will use it if I have to, but why bother when you can ( not always ) use stainless.

I would love to hear from your experiences ( good and bad) so we may help others.


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## clogs (18 Sep 2022)

well, thats opened up a can of worms to only a FEW of us I fear......hahaha....most people hate metal......

Like u I just love St/Steel...esp when polished......but the costs of stock are phenominal up here....
Where no stresses are involved I make a lot of irreplacable fittings from it for old cars, esp against a black chassis it looks great.....
in fact unless the rebuild has to be "AS IS" all body panels and bolts around radiators and the like I replace for St/St, even if I have to make em.....and if I only break even, I just like the look.....
I bought a small welded link St/St chain, obv Chinese by the poor quality.....at what I would have considered 400% above the real cost.....grrrrr....
Brass. as above....but it cost more than St/St.....!!!!!!!!!
have a few huge spanners made of the stuff, from an oil refinery but they are for show now, on a shelf with a few other collectables....
have a little stock mostley for custom exhaust fittings and fixtures...for pre 1920 vehicles, tractors, m/cycles, often with a quick polish after machining....any new stock will have to come from Athens or Germany now.....
Eventually got to like Ally now but I cant afford to spend £2000 on a TIG welder for that n St/St so I use rivets....
not the POP rivet sort but they do have their place........
actually, rivets often hand made ^lathe^ if it's outta the ordiary.....I quite like riviting....found a set of punches and anvils in a junk store for peanuts years ago....nobody knew what they were.....lol......
Never get to work with copper but I often pick it up when found in scrap yards, just in case....hahaha.....
Lastly Bronze.....again nice to work with but OH so expensive now.......
This is why I got into woodworking, I needed to make bronze/casting patterns....I have had to make waterpump bodies etc and the like for old vehicles where no parts exist.....make a pattern and then get it cast......in house machine it back to look original.....
it's all part of the fun I have.....
Just to add....
I have found a product from S Africa that can only describe as an oiled plastic that's superior to bronze......this needs minimal lube/maintainence....in fact unless it's a visual thing I use this plastic instead of bronze for bushings.....
it was developed for the mining industry there.....
The last time I bought some was 50mm dia solid x 1m was around £200......not cheap but it will outlast bronze by ten fold at least....

Like anything it's the tooling that makes it easy to work....Carbide, Hss and CoHss.....
all can be bought quite cheaply from the likes ofeBay.....

So yes, I'm totatly nuts about metal, wood comes a close second tho....esp Oak.....
making things from plastic....Nahhhh....although I'd love a 3D printer and someone to drive it....hahaha...

have a good week end.....


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## Sideways (18 Sep 2022)

Like a lot of hobbyists, I bought some indexable tooling for my old lathe which doesn't run fast enough to make best use of it. That said, the mirror polished, positive rake inserts designed for cutting aluminium and non ferrous metals still manage a decent finish.

I'm not such a fan of either brass or cast iron because of the mess they make. Tiny sharp chips that spray from the cut. When I first bought my lathe, the previous owner had only ever used it dry for cutting brass fittings for model aircraft and had greased where he should have oiled the gearbox and apron. I came to hate brass and grease ....


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## GLS (18 Sep 2022)

I have spent the last thirty years making gates, railings, balustrades, fire-escapes, working on up to large constructional beam work, or what ever came through the doors for fixing. Often as not in a minimal equipped workshop, which made it more interesting, as you had to get over each challenge with what you had, not with what you would like, by way of tooling. Learnt far more that way then I ever did in the well-equipped shipyard in which I started. So, I like mild steel, its compliant once you know how it wants to behave in any given process. I enjoy it so much that even though I am now retired I still give a mate a hand a couple of days a week. I don’t have to travel very far to see something that I have made, be it a single gate or a couple of dozen meters of railings, which is nice.


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## clogs (18 Sep 2022)

GLS'
nice to know I'm not alone......
forgot to say ....here steel for struvctural use ie box and channelis cheaper than buying wood.....
So most Purgulars etc are now steel framed.....
The other bonus here as it's a hot dry climate even when chipped it doesn't rust heavily....
Plus being an old world place u can still buy decent paint that would be now called TOXIC in the UK........


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

Wood is much more of a challenge than metal, you buy some metal and apart from it's ability to rust it remains the same shape and size unlike wood that twist and warps. 316 stainless was a lovely material to weld, so easy and with TIG any position.


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## Phill05 (18 Sep 2022)

Well I started out farming and had a woodworking workshop as well and have used wood all my life and in conjunction I have also a metal machine shop and use Stainless, Aluminium, Brass and steel, re-built parts for the farm machines and made my own cnc machines made parts for other companies if fact I made some saw parts for a stone cutting company and got hired as design and accounts manager.


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## TFrench (18 Sep 2022)

Think it's quite funny that most "metalheads" like using stainless, while it's like the devil incarnate to most people!


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## Dalboy (19 Sep 2022)

At the moment I find ali the better material to work but then I am only on the start of my journey in metal bashing as I have only been doing it since January this year. This is how much I have done so far.


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## Fergie 307 (20 Sep 2022)

Sideways said:


> Like a lot of hobbyists, I bought some indexable tooling for my old lathe which doesn't run fast enough to make best use of it. That said, the mirror polished, positive rake inserts designed for cutting aluminium and non ferrous metals still manage a decent finish.
> 
> I'm not such a fan of either brass or cast iron because of the mess they make. Tiny sharp chips that spray from the cut. When I first bought my lathe, the previous owner had only ever used it dry for cutting brass fittings for model aircraft and had greased where he should have oiled the gearbox and apron. I came to hate brass and grease ....


I love stainless. For one off components that are going to live outside nothing beats it. For other things I like steel for its variety, and being able to harden it etc If that is what is required. I also do a lot of alloy, easy to work with and the light weight is often useful. Does make for a bit of a mess if you are doing serious cuts and have to use cutting fluid. I do quite a bit in brass. It's nice to machine, but like you I hate the mess. Nothing seems to be able to embed itself in the most painful places like a bit of brass swarf! I tend to save up brass turning jobs if I can and then do them all in one go, then clean the machine down. Most of my brass work is tiny stuff for clocks and pocket watches. I recently got an old Unimat lathe, so will hopefully do most brass on that in future. Should be easier to clean up than the Harrison. Cast iron is a similar story for me, love the machining of it, don't much like cleaning up. I always think metal and wood complement each other very well. I would think it would be very satisfying not just to make a piece of furniture, but to custom make all the fittings as well. Won't ever happen for me I'm afraid, my woodworking skills are nowhere near good enough. Maybe when I retire


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## Fergie 307 (20 Sep 2022)

Dalboy said:


> At the moment I find ali the better material to work but then I am only on the start of my journey in metal bashing as I have only been doing it since January this year. This is how much I have done so far.
> 
> View attachment 143775


looking good to me, have thoroughly enjoyed the traction engine build thread on here. You could start another one for your locomotive.


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## sawtooth-9 (20 Sep 2022)

In the same ways all timbers have their unique properties, so too with metals.
Some do need much more of a clean up, but are much easier to work.

I regard cast iron as a metal which you have to really "annoy" - you need to dig under the skin and then just eat into the base metal.
Just don't try machining rubbish cast from China !

Brass needs speed and the right tool. Messy to clean up- but a lovely result.
Cast steel and forgings are quite interesting to play with - all requiring a "feel" for the material. You get this from the appearance of the swarf, the "feel" as you cut and the sound as it cuts. 

So too with different timbers


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## clogs (20 Sep 2022)

Fergie307
I believe that parafin is the best lube /coolant for Ally when machining....
cant remember the last time I machined ally for anything other than washers....

and for those that think metal doesn't move/twist try welding some.....hahaha...
once u get used to the movement u adjust ur work/measurements/angles to suit....


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## Fergie 307 (20 Sep 2022)

clogs said:


> Fergie307
> I believe that parafin is the best lube /coolant for Ally when machining....
> cant remember the last time I machined ally for anything other than washers....
> 
> ...


Yes paraffin is very good and i have a bottle attached to a tube so it drips regularly on to the work. Problem is you can lower the guard, which then quickly gets covered so you cant see what you are doing, or leave it up and get paraffin flicking off everywhere. I tend to go for the latter option, and if you can get the flow right so its just enough to stop the tool galling then its not too bad. I actually have one of the wheel adjustable plastic gadgets they use on drip bags in hospitals works a treat. For big cuts you would probably get too much flying around for paraffin to be a good idea so I use regular fluid, then switch back for the final sizing.


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## clogs (20 Sep 2022)

my wheely thing was from the catheter my wife had her after an op.....
when we left i took it from the bin....knew it would be handy.....hahaha.....
she was suprised when i showed her it's new use....
at that time my myford had no coolant system.....
made a bracket that would take a 1 gall oil can, then washer fluid tube down to another bracket via the dripper.....
worked for years.....
I made a hook for under the drain tray and cought the old coolant in a small bucket which was filtered and went back whence it came.....saving the planet.....lol....


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## spanner48 (20 Sep 2022)

clogs said:


> well, thats opened up a can of worms to only a FEW of us I fear......hahaha....most people hate metal......
> 
> Like u I just love St/Steel...esp when polished......but the costs of stock are phenominal up here....
> Where no stresses are involved I make a lot of irreplacable fittings from it for old cars, esp against a black chassis it looks great.....
> ...


"a few huge spanners made of the stuff, from an oil refinery"?
If that's they case, they're not ordinary [i.e. Copper-Zinc] brass, but Beryllium Bronze. The only tool metal that is guaranteed *not* to cause a spark if it is hit, or hits something. So, only used in the oil-&-gas industry, to avoid explosions. Extremely expensive, and very valuable.


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## Fergie 307 (21 Sep 2022)

clogs said:


> my wheely thing was from the catheter my wife had her after an op.....
> when we left i took it from the bin....knew it would be handy.....hahaha.....
> she was suprised when i showed her it's new use....
> at that time my myford had no coolant system.....
> ...


My source is much less interesting Im afraid. We have a friend who is a nurse and she just saves me one occasionally that has been used for saline or whatever.


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## Dabop (21 Sep 2022)

spanner48 said:


> "a few huge spanners made of the stuff, from an oil refinery"?
> If that's they case, they're not ordinary [i.e. Copper-Zinc] brass, but Beryllium Bronze. The only tool metal that is guaranteed *not* to cause a spark if it is hit, or hits something. So, only used in the oil-&-gas industry, to avoid explosions. Extremely expensive, and very valuable.


I used to have (sold it to mate still in the mining industry) a full set of spanners made of that- I worked on the metering systems in several anfo factories (they make the stuff onsite in most mines), and they were religious about anything that could possibly cause sparks- you had to put anything that could cause even the potential to cause a spark into lockboxes at the compound gate- mobiles, lighters, no using radio transmitters inside (you had to leave the radio turned off) and all our gear was 'airtight' and gasketed- which made cooling the electronics interesting in 40C plus temperatures- no fan cooling external to the case, all done with 'heatpipes'

It IS pretty stable, but with up to 2000 tonnes onsite at times for a big shotblast- you don't want to be there if it does go bang accidentally... (Hiroshima was 13kt equivalent, so if it went up- it was about 1/6th the power of 'Little Boy')




To give you an idea of the power- the MAC camp was almost exactly 13km from the mine- and when a big shot was fired, you could feel the air shock wave still at that distance (not a gale, but still noticeable), and plates etc would rattle on the shelves...


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## clogs (21 Sep 2022)

nice photo Dapop.....is that a drag line machine....? long time since working on one of those....
Favourite crawler base was either an American, had a V6 two stroke Diesel or the Ruston-Busyrus with their air cooled engine....
Just thinking back not much plant ever got Gardener D engines....perfect I would have thought....???
A case of accountant paranoia.......

Same with us on a long job at a gas turbine house......
used to take trainee fitters with us......those silly person's could get u killed....
No phones etc.....all pockets had to be Zipped....
any infringement u were thrown of site with no return.....the good old days.....hahaha....


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## Dabop (21 Sep 2022)

Most of the big draglines here in Australia are purely electric surprisingly- they use massive 'mains' cables running to the machine and fed from the mains grid...
Trucks and some smaller (lol- small being a relative term) kit use diesel Cats for the most part although that was changing when I got out of the game- a lot of the new trucks etc are now Chinese built by XMEC or Japanese Komatsu trucks (many of which are driverless automated ones- over 80% of the automated trucks worldwide are here in Australia- something I am not really happy to see- the mining companies give little enough to Australia as it is without cutting the few jobs left even more)


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## sawtooth-9 (22 Sep 2022)

clogs said:


> nice photo Dapop.....is that a drag line machine....? long time since working on one of those....
> Favourite crawler base was either an American, had a V6 two stroke Diesel or the Ruston-Busyrus with their air cooled engine....
> Just thinking back not much plant ever got Gardener D engines....perfect I would have thought....???
> A case of accountant paranoia.......
> ...


I once had the responsibility for the safety of an aerosol filling plant.
We had 400 tonnes of hydrocarbon gas on site, in the middle of a residential area in Sydney.
You would not believe the number of gas tanker delivery drivers I banned ( for life ) for basic safety breaches. I don't think they knew what a copper hammer was.
With hydrocarbon gas, there is an old adage -"one flash, and you're ash "


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