# Has Mr Grimsdale been banned ?



## JFC (17 Aug 2007)

I assume it was the thread about Tonys mag thing but i only scanned the thread at the early stages as i have been busy . I did see that some members thought the practice was unsafe but as i did'nt see i cant say . Please dont tell me the thread has been pulled to sell mags rather than save fingers


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## motownmartin (17 Aug 2007)

Apparently so  

Martin


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## JFC (17 Aug 2007)

Thats a shame , if he was banned for getting angry about something unsafe then i do wonder why i post here , however i did not see what happened and would really like to know why someone i have a very high opinion of was banned .


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## motownmartin (17 Aug 2007)

I think it was a personal attack on an individual.

But, yes a damn shame, things written in a forum are difficult to judge, as I said before, you can't see the writers face and you can't hear the writers tone of voice, so you can't tell if it's a bit tongue in cheek, lets hope he returns soon.

Martin


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## Anonymous (17 Aug 2007)

Shhhhh, certain things should not be talked about...... not here anyway.... meet me under the clocktower grey sqirrel, make sure you are carrying a newspaper and a red rose, with the passwords "lovely day, have you seen Brad Naylor" :lol:


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## JFC (17 Aug 2007)

Yeah , i saw him on the London underground begging for a cup of tea :lol:


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## Anonymous (18 Aug 2007)

I have just read some of the previous posts and now realise that Mr Grim really has been banned. :shock: 
I really don't understand what moderaters want the members to post about.
If it wasn't for the likes of Grim this forum would just be a backslapping old boys club, with members showing of their latest aquisitions - "gloat heres my No63 curly wurly rebate whatsit" 
Mr Grim may have posted without much thought sometimes and yes he's blunt and to the point but at least his posts created discussion, usually Mr Grim made threads run to 4 or 5 pages of interesting reading rather than one page of "me to", "yes I agree"
As for banning Mr Grim, it seems the mods are a bit like kids in a football match, if they don't like the score, best take the football home.


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## Charley (18 Aug 2007)

JFC":2dt4aq6o said:


> Please dont tell me the thread has been pulled to sell mags rather than save fingers


No the thread wasn't pulled because of that. Unfortunately as the thread was so large it was quicker and easier to remove the whole thing. I don't want to break my own rules so can't discuss the ban or the moderators actions on the public forum.



senior":2dt4aq6o said:


> Shhhhh, certain things should not be talked about...... not here anyway....


Yes you're quite correct. We only have a few rules on the forum but as rule 8 clearly states "Warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum. "

I won't close or delete this thread yet but do ask that before replying you re-read the forum rules first. Please feel free to contact me off the forum by email or PM...


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## DomValente (18 Aug 2007)

JFC":6xwh4gdt said:


> Yeah , i saw him on the London underground begging for a cup of tea :lol:



Was Elvis with him ?  

Dom


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## motownmartin (18 Aug 2007)

Whoops, there are only 8 rules and I have breached 3 of them, sorry Charley.

Martin


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## Anonymous (18 Aug 2007)

Charley":1ta5dqp9 said:


> I won't close or delete this thread yet but do ask that before replying you re-read the forum rules first. Please feel free to contact me off the forum by email or PM...



Yep have read them, by the way rule 5 is still in the list. Shouldn't it have been ammended by now, something along the lines of "except when it suits"


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## andy king (18 Aug 2007)

At the risk of getting banned myself, of which I couldn't really care less, I assume Jacob was banned for making accusations without foundation in that thread and I defended my position as part of it, my position being one of those he was attacking.
Why he got banned or the thread removed is down to the moderators, Newbie Neil I think.
I have already asked why the thread was removed and the posting from Neil states it will be edited and reposted. This is a complete wste of time in my eyes, it doesn't give any other reader an opportunity to form an opinion based on half a story.
Incidentally, I agreed with that posting - I thought the pictures we published were the most dangerous we have ever done, and made that clear on that thread, I've also informed my Editor about my concerns as well. I'm not prepared to dscuss it further, I know its dangerous, I know we shouldn't have published it, but we have.
I rejoined the forum to defend a slur against myself and others, and have been attacked since, again without foundation.

I have offered advice freely and honestly over the years, both through the forum, and off line, but now I seem to defending myself or my magazine from unsubstantiated accusations more regularly.

Andy

admin edit


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## Gill (18 Aug 2007)

Passions are running high!

It's only natural that so many people should feel passionately about both this forum and woodwork but if we allow our emotions to to overwhelm us, we're going to make posts which will be of little benefit to anyone. I'm rarely able to remember who 'won' a particular online spat but I can usually recall if a member's posts are worth reading. Generally speaking, I just skim through the posts of members who persistently make derogatory contributions. Sadly, this means that even if they're saying something worthwhile, I won't notice it. On the other hand, there are members who consistently make informative posts which are an educational delight. These are the posts that I really visit the forum to read.

I would like to think that everyone who makes a post here believes they are contributing positively to our woodworking heritage. Unfortunately, some of the posts lead me to believe that it's got more to do with egos than woodwork. I'm saddened by the amount of vitriol that's been flying around the forum lately, no matter where it emanates. We could all do without it.

Gill


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## JFC (18 Aug 2007)

Hi Andy , like i said i did not see what happened and have not seen the mag so please do'nt think i was attacking you . I hold your opinions as i do Jacobs in very high regard . I have met you a few times at the D and M trade show and it was yourself that pointed me towards the Xtreme xtention and the Legacy .


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## motownmartin (18 Aug 2007)

andy king":2i19p3jw said:


> Now it has become a nest of vipers, full of back stabbersand point scorers.
> 
> Andy



Hold your Horses, this indicates that you regard everybody as a viper and backstabber, no wonder you got attacked.

A learner and a contributer.

Martin


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## matt (18 Aug 2007)

I suggest everyone goes off and reads the book Emotional Intelligence. That, for the record, is not a derogatory remark, it's merely a very good read and one that may help keep things in perspective (both here and in life generally).


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## andy king (18 Aug 2007)

Hi Martin,

I apologise if you feel it indicates everyone on the forum, it was't meant to, but having to constantly justify my part in the woodworking world when postings are made without foundation does get tiresome, and it was aimed squarely at those people, and they know who they are.

Andy


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## motownmartin (18 Aug 2007)

Apollogies accepted Andy  

Thanks

Martin


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## davy_owen_88 (18 Aug 2007)

I think that if everyone remembered that this is a site primarily for adults, and as such the members should be able to take critisicm without getting stroppy then maybe there wouldn't be so many threads which end in being locked and someone banned. In the real world you have to accept things as they are, and personally I read Mr Grims posts and I couldn't find anything wrong with it except that it wasn't exactly full of praise... :roll: 

Perhaps if this forum wasn't expected to be a back-slapping, (nice one senior :wink group-hug kind of place and more a place for woodworkers to share experience/advice and offer genuine comments then there wouldn't appear to be so much negativity. It's the banning/threats of banning/random post removals and people getting their knickers in a twist because someone didn't like something they said that make this forum seem like a far less friendly place.


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## A_n_g_e_l_a (18 Aug 2007)

davy_owen_88":hg44fbnw said:


> It's the banning/threats of banning/random post removals and people getting their knickers in a twist because someone didn't like something they said that make this forum seem like a far less friendly place.



If you haven't had a warning yet ... it's on its way!


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## Charley (18 Aug 2007)

davy_owen_88":3kovk6s4 said:


> It's the banning/threats of banning/random post removals and people getting their knickers in a twist because someone didn't like something they said that make this forum seem like a far less friendly place.


Posts and threads are only edited, deleted or removed when they brake the rules. If you do have any concerns please contact me directly.



A_n_g_e_l_a":3kovk6s4 said:


> If you haven't had a warning yet ... it's on its way!



Sorry I didn't know you were a moderator now Angela :wink: :roll: Davy's post is fine as far as I can see...


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## Anonymous (18 Aug 2007)

Charley":2fisx1x0 said:


> Posts and threads are only edited, deleted or removed when they brake the rules. If you do have any concerns please contact me directly.


Strange I had a post removed only this morning, which broke no rules, but i suspect was considered to be mickey taking of the mods, come on guys, lighten up


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## woodbloke (18 Aug 2007)

davy owen 88 wrote -


> Perhaps if this forum wasn't expected to be a back-slapping, (nice one senior ) group-hug kind of place and more a place for woodworkers to share experience/advice and offer genuine comments



My two cents input, for what it's worth. I have crossed blades with Mr Grim on a number of ocassions and as others have said, does _tend_ to fire from the hip without fully engaging the grey matter, as we all do from time to time. His input to the forum is valid, though _in my view_, not always sound.
I've said previoulsy elsewhere that I value criticsm, both negative and positive. It's always pleasant to hear good things about what we all try and achieve in our workshops but equally would like to read constructive comments about projects and techniques, as indicated by Davy in the quote.
I would also say that this is Charley's site and he is the 'Boss of Bosses' (sorry Dom ) and does decide on the rules, which are *clearly stated* and I for one try and respect them. We should also bear in mind that although this is primarily a UK site, anyone with an internet connection from Aukland to Amsterdam is party to the conversation.
Mr Grim has made a transgression of the rules and has received a temporary ban as a consequence (please correct if wrong) I look forward to further _interesting conversations_ with Mr Grim when he's hopefully reinstated. Only my personal view on this one - Rob


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## A_n_g_e_l_a (18 Aug 2007)

Charlie, since you address me directly, here in this forum, kindly allow me to do the same to you.

I speak for myself and only myself. But I find I am in agreement with, I acknowledge - a minority, who consider your action of allowing British Woodworking to advertise in the forum a mistake. 

It now appears to have been a quid pro quo arrangement - in that it is reported that BW have in return featured UKW. Maybe this is simply fortuitous but my aged cynicsm hints at me otherwise. 

If you have rules that are rigourously policed - and it appears they are - you and your mods shouldn't be too upset when someone take a poke for breaking one your own rules.

Have the good grace to apologize for your mistake - breaking rule 5 - and call off the thought-police, please. Even Thatcher, Kinnock, Major et al didn't try to pull the plug on Spitting Image's quite vicious, at times, satirical portrayal of their bungling.

I no longer buy magazines as I am tired of the sychophantic relationship most magazines seem to have with advertisers. It appears to me that all publications are simply another means of marketing to us - the punters. 

I had previously thought UKW might be different. If this goes on, I consider you will stand to lose even more readers _and_ click-throughs, than you might otherwise have done.

You have already lost mr grimsdale and his valuable input; who else are you going to let your thought-police see off? I fully understand I'm breaking rule 8 "You shall love the lord thy God and criticise him not" ... but so what, Precious.


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## davy_owen_88 (18 Aug 2007)

Charley":2se28dap said:


> Posts and threads are only edited, deleted or removed when they brake the rules. If you do have any concerns please contact me directly.





Forum Rules":2se28dap said:


> (2.) No offensive material
> UKW expects members to behave respectfully and not to personally attack or be abusive to other members. ‘Offensive’ is a pretty broad term, but we think you know what we mean.



I think the problem is that perhaps your moderators don't actually know what you mean. What some people take offence at, some people will not. Some people consider a negative comment an insult, while others will take it at face value and learn from it. I understand the mods have a hard job trying to find a balance between these, but recently I think the balance has gone out the window and anything that isn't deemed positive is considered an insult. 

The thread regarding Tony's plane is a perfect example. The thread started without any direct point. Just 'check out Tony's plane in whatever magazine.' Someone made the valid point about the dangerous picture and then a discussion came about regarding safety. Was this a bad thing? Was anyone actually insulting Tony directly? No, yet it was still locked, and now appears to have been deleted.

It seems there's this 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all' attitude which is truly pathetic for a group of adults who require criticism in order to learn. If more than one person makes the same criticism it is considered an argument and then other members come in trying to defend their forum 'buddies' which then leads to the thread being locked and everything interesting and useful that could have come out of it being lost. Perhaps the mods should focus on those that take offence/retaliation and lay off those that appear to be causing the stir - because in my opinion, the most useful part of this forum is the negative points brought up which helps everyone to learn.


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## Mike.C (18 Aug 2007)

Sorry, but I cannot belive why anyone should attack Andy. He came back on the forum to defend himself against Mr Grimsdale who basically said that he among others were amateurs writing for amateurs. Now considering that writing is the way he earns money to look after his family and pay the bills, I think that he has every right to defend himself.

All I can say is come on guys and girls, lets try and calm down and get back to the way it used to be, because I for one have been helped more then you could ever know by members of this forum. I cannot think of any place where people give their time and advice freely, willingly and without benefit to themselves then they do on this forum. It seems like nothing is to much for members, and I am continually astounded by their kindness, and the effort they put into helping their fellow members, and I for one would hate to stop coming here.

Don't get me wrong I am as bad as anyone else for retaliating and shouting my mouth off before putting my brain in gear.

Stepping down off my orange box and getting my coat. :wink: 

Cheers

Mike


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## Charley (18 Aug 2007)

Hi Angela,

As I already explained in the BWW post, I allowed Nick's thread because a) he asked me first, b) I thought it would be useful to the members, c) as he has just written an article mentioning UKW something that should bring us new members and d) I wanted to return the favour. Without wanting to cause any offence I don't think it's anyone's business if I, the site owner want to allow a post. I do however think it's fantastic that people care so much about UKW. In hindsight seeing how the thread turned out I probably shouldn't of allowed it and I apologise again to anyone it upset.



davy_owen_88":zhadqy6f said:


> Charley":zhadqy6f said:
> 
> 
> > Posts and threads are only edited, deleted or removed when they brake the rules. If you do have any concerns please contact me directly.
> ...



You make some good points Davy and I agree with most of them. We are trying to get the balance back on track and keep everyone happy. I'm considering modifying the rules and guidelines to improve things.

Tony's Plane thread wasn't deleted because of that reason. The safety discussion was valid. The whole thread was deleted simply because it was large and would take us too long to remove the offending posts.

I hope this clears a few things up and we can go back to talking about wood and tools. Again if anyone wants to contact me about this or anything else please do...


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## Scrit (18 Aug 2007)

Mike.C":1oekwnqp said:


> Sorry, but I cannot belive why anyone should attack Andy. He came back on the forum to defend himself against Mr Grimsdale who basically said that he among others were amateurs writing for amateurs.


Firstly what I'm going to "say" is not directed at any one personally. Secondly I did not read the last day's worth of posting on "that thread" so I'm not in a position to comment on it's contents, at least not sensibly. But having got that out of the way I will say this much; there appears to be a growing tendency for magazines to publish photographs without any attempt to control content. My feeling is that "risky" techniques should not be illustrated as some readers tend to trust what they see and read in journals and books (which are often written by untrained individuals) - and attempt to mimic what they've seen. I find American authors and publishers and their British licencees particularly lax in that respect (even in light of the lower safety threshold required by OSHA). Amateurs writing for amateurs is all very well, but unlike sewing or rug making woodworking does carry with it a degree of risk of injury which magazines should take on board. Or am I wrong to expect a degree of responsible behaviour from the press in these post-Murdoch days?

Scrit


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## andy king (18 Aug 2007)

Couple of points.
Firstly, thanks Mike, I did rejoin to defend myself, and my point was that while Mr Grimsdale made the 'amateur' accusation, I am in fact an City and Guilds indentured joiner and I have 30 years of woodworking experience in a huge variety of roles within it, so hardly the amateur he glibly accused everyone of being.
Scrit, I agree wholeheartedly with you.
I was dumbfounded when I saw the pictures of Tony's plane, but it was too late to do anything as the mag was at the printers. I for one, always bang on about safety issues, i've been on the recieving end of machinery injuries, and I don't like them! It's no excuse for the mag publishing them, they should have been picked up at the editorial stage, but that isn't my role in GW. Hopefully, having told the editor how dangerous I thought it was, he will take a closer look at future projects before we publish.
I know we have discussed safety issues on this forum in the past, you and I, so I think we agree that we are on the same side here!
One thing that did surprise me was Tony's defence that it was safe to do the cuts.
Having read his thread where he filleted his fingers on a router a year or so back, I would have thought he would be very aware of the dangers of sticking his fingers so close, but that's another story.

Andy


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## Mike.C (18 Aug 2007)

Hi Scrit,

You never read the thread so you had no way of knowing but Andy did say



> Andy,
> 
> I thought the pictures we published were the most dangerous we have ever done, and made that clear on that thread, I've also informed my Editor about my concerns as well. I'm not prepared to dscuss it further, I know its dangerous, I know we shouldn't have published it, but we have.



EDIT oops we seemed to have crossed over here Andy

Cheers

Mike


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## Johnboy (18 Aug 2007)

I missed the last day as well so was wondering what all the fuss was about. Interested to hear what Andy had to say but surprised to hear that the Editor seems to have no knowledge of safety, does he have any knowledge of woodworking? I would have thought that it was pretty basic journalism to get articles checked for major safety issue before printing.

John

ps. Bring back Jacob.


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## Scrit (18 Aug 2007)

Thank you Andy and Mike for clarifying that for me. I was curious as to what had happened, especially as Jacob and I had crossed swords in the past over Whitehill blocks, but then I once liked French cutters and they can be real digit removers so I'd never, ever recommend them, especially to an inexperienced spindle user! 

Like Andy the comments I made about personal injuries were real enough - the oddest thing about slicing yourself is the fact that you don't realise where the claret is coming from (at first), you're more concerned with not marking the workpiece! (I've discussed this with a number of tradesmen and they all agree) It's the consequences which aren't so nice. If you are lucky it all heals up, but even scar tissue can get in the way and reduce sense of touch as well as mobility. Hence the admonitions to work safely from some people like me

Scrit


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## wizer (18 Aug 2007)

Good God people, lets wipe our mouth and move on eh? Lets not turn this into just another internet forum where more time is spent bickering than exchanging useful information and friendly advice.


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## Mike.C (18 Aug 2007)

> Scrit,
> 
> Like Andy the comments I made about personal injuries were real enough - the oddest thing about slicing yourself is the fact that you don't realise where the claret is coming from (at first), you're more concerned with not marking the workpiece!



:lol: Ha ha ha, your right there Scrit. I have had blood pouring out of a cut, and SWMBO trying to wrap it up and all I am worried about is not getting anything on the piece of rosewood, your so right :wink: 

Cheers


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## DomValente (18 Aug 2007)

I thought this discussion was fairly amusing, until I saw this,

*Woodbloke wrote:*



> this is Charley's site and he is the 'Boss of Bosses' (sorry Dom )



Now things are going to get *nasty*

Oh, and by the way A_n_g_e_l_a , in reply to your question,"were shall we go ?" In those shoes, anywhere you like.

Smile, life's too short .

Dom


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## NeilO (18 Aug 2007)

My thoughts....

the topic was raised, and the thread obviously broke at least one rule, for the Mods to ban/delete it...

I hope Jacob (Mr Grimsdale) does come back, as I feel his opinion , is just that....and as such he is entitled to it ( right or wrong ) because if we are denied this whats the point???

Not wanting to push my luck, but should not the Mods have picked up this thread earlier, seeing which way it was heading and warning to the user/s of a possible breach of the rules ( sorry Charley , if this had already been done(not being privvy to such matters))

anyway , its done, and dusted

and like Dom sez "Life`s too short"


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## Scrit (18 Aug 2007)

DomValente":2wlfmdel said:


> Oh, and by the way A_n_g_e_l_a , in reply to your question,"were shall we go ?" In those shoes, anywhere you like.


Angela, I think you have the beginning of a fan club here...... :wink:


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## JFC (18 Aug 2007)

> the topic was raised, and the thread obviously broke at least one rule, for the Mods to ban/delete it...


So you think i should be banned for asking why a very knowledgable member of the forum has been banned ? Fair enough , if i have to read that kind of rubbish then i'm happy to go . :roll:


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## Jake (18 Aug 2007)

I know Mr G expresses himself michievously at times, but I find the self-righteous crowd/cabal on the other side of those debates much more unpleasant and vituperative. Including in that thread, that day.


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## A_n_g_e_l_a (18 Aug 2007)

Scrit":4nnpvwuk said:


> Angela, I think you have the beginning of a fan club here...... :wink:



How nice! But don't get excited! I have had a final warning from Neil the Mod. I guess I probably won't be here long!


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## Losos (19 Aug 2007)

Gill":z8z7onvr said:


> I just skim through the posts of members who persistently make derogatory contributions.....................
> 
> 
> .................................. On the other hand, there are members who consistently make informative posts which are an educational delight. These are the posts that I really visit the forum to read.



*Hi Gill,*
On the first point........there is another way.................have an '*Ignore' *list..........some forums do have this facility and it works for me :wink: 

On the second point ...................have a '*Buddy'* list

I'll leave you to speculate on which list you would put me, but you can PM me your choice if you wish :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Losos (19 Aug 2007)

andy king":1spiv2hw said:


> , _and it was aimed squarely at those people, and they know who they are_.
> 
> Andy



IMO it's really *only a handful of people*, maybe only three or four at most. Shame really 'cos up until recently I was promoting this forum on many others (Non woodworking) as an example of how people should behave on a public forum. 

Might have to stop doing that now


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## Losos (19 Aug 2007)

Charley":terv9j8q said:


> _Again if anyone wants to contact me about this or anything else please do_...



Hi Charley, 

I have *sent you a PM about one way I feel the site could be improved *and all this bad feeling avoided.

You have said that you feel the BWW thread wasn't perhaps the right thing to allow, *but in all honesty I can't see why*. I could be wrong but I assume you didn't get paid anything by BWW, am I correct?

OK, So they *featured UKW in the first issue*, so what!!! the site will only get better with more members, we don't pay a subscription, you don't even have those annoying ads. which I've had to pay a small amount to remove on another forum I visit (Not a woodworking one)

I could say more but as Mike C said, *I would really regret not comming on here,* it has helped me a lot, and IIRC the help & advice has all come from people who *don't* feature in any of these 'negative' postings  

As you have said it's your site, you're doing a *reasonable* job *and this certainly isn't meant to be patronising or 'buddy ish' or in any way 'me too' (I rather object to the implications that people have made about 'positive' thinking)

* I thought about using a word other than this but didn't want to be attacked from the people who don't like compliments and would prefer I said something rude or negative :wink:


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## Losos (19 Aug 2007)

DomValente":3ecmejjv said:


> I thought this discussion was fairly amusing, until I saw this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OMG Dom, I nearly said something about your jokes in my post above. So glad I keept my moth shut now :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Yeh, lifes too short, you're right about that!!


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## beech1948 (19 Aug 2007)

Jake":yhfyd8sl said:


> I know Mr G expresses himself michievously at times, but I find the self-righteous crowd/cabal on the other side of those debates much more unpleasant and vituperative. Including in that thread, that day.



Mr Grim went to far by a smidgen and now bears the penalty. However, the quote above is exactly the issue. 

Mr Grim was not the only member to cause offence the "self-righteous crowd/cabal" should also be banned for a month.
regards
Alan


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## RogerS (19 Aug 2007)

JFC":vtnsu3lf said:


> > the topic was raised, and the thread obviously broke at least one rule, for the Mods to ban/delete it...
> 
> 
> So you think i should be banned for asking why a very knowledgable member of the forum has been banned ? Fair enough , if i have to read that kind of rubbish then i'm happy to go . :roll:



JFC - I think he's referring to the original thread (the one that got deleted). Please don't go...I've still got me windows to finish :wink:


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## JFC (19 Aug 2007)

:lol: The way it's going soon there will be no one left to talk to :lol:


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## Johnboy (19 Aug 2007)

I think the lunatics have taken over the asylum :shock: The original thread about Tony's plane was removed we are told because it would have taken too long to delete the offending posts. Just how many posts were involved then? I see that one of Angela's and one of Senior's have been removed and Andy King's post has been edited in this thread, someone had time for that then.

The posts that were removed were some mild mickey taking of Neil the Mod and I presume it is for this that they have been warned, unbelievable.

Andy King makes these offensive and provocative statements:-

1. Now it has become a nest of vipers, full of back stabbers and point scorers.

2. No doubt this will unleash a backlash, but bring it on!

3. I've kept my gloves on for far too long on this forum. 

and just gets his post edited, while senior and Angela get warned!!

Could the mods please get together and give Neil a large dose of reality pills.

John


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## andy king (19 Aug 2007)

John,

provocative or not, i stand by that statement. The thread that was taken down should have remained, along with a nother posting on another thread. I was defending an unfounded accusation, and I am perfectly within my rights to do so.
If you want me banned, fine. I'll just not bother, but if you hav=d certain members of this forum making repeated unfounded accusations about your own job, would just sit there and let them do it?
I've been accused in the past on here of taking bungs, recently i've been told i'm an amateur, what else does the forum want to accuse me of? I've got broad shoulders!

Andy
Feel free to edit this, ban me, do what you want, I couldn't care less.


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## JFC (19 Aug 2007)

Well you do shave your arms Andy :wink: Ok to prove how sharp you can get a blade but it's still shaving . :lol:


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## MIGNAL (19 Aug 2007)

Mr Grims been banned? Oh no, I thought he was by far the most entertaining poster on here AND I've been on the receiving end of his invective. So the forum will become less like this  and this :shock: and more like  .


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## Johnboy (19 Aug 2007)

Andy, I will take your statements in order.

1. Now it has become a nest of vipers, full of back stabbers and point scorers.

You say the forum is full of back stabbers and point scorers, by any definition of full that I am aware this means that you have that opinion of the vast majority of the forum members. Please explain how exactly that is not the case.

2. No doubt this will unleash a backlash, but bring it on!

3. I've kept my gloves on for far too long on this forum. 

The above two statements are both provocative and seeking argument, how exactly is that helpful to the forum?

I guess the remark "written by amateurs for amateurs" was what caused most offense. If so was it aimed directly at you or the magazine in general? If the latter then I think it is largely true. The content seems mostly aimed at the amateur (or hobby if amateur causes offense) woodworker and many articles, particularly the projects, are written by amateurs. 

I certainly don't want anyone banned but think you need to word your posts a little more carefully if you don't want to cause offense.

regards

John


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## Anonymous (19 Aug 2007)

Johnboy":2pkt2cs4 said:


> and just gets his post edited, while senior and Angela get warned!!
> 
> 
> John



AdminEdit


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## davy_owen_88 (19 Aug 2007)

Andy, I really don't think Mr Grimsdale was directly calling you an amateur. He just said that some magazines were written by amateurs for amateurs and that isn't entirely untrue. You may be a fully qualified professional woodworker but judging by the number of members on this forum who do not do woodwork as their main trade but are still getting articles published seems to show that the 'written by amateurs' comment was not untrue. I also doubt that there are many professional woodworkers out there who pop down to their corner shop to buy a magazine in order for them to do their job.

This isn't a dig at you, or any of the members who write articles who do not do woodwork for a living, but I do not think it was fair that Mr G was banned for making his opinions known just because some people took it the wrong way and took the word 'amateur' as a derogatory term. I also don't think it's fair that Senior has been banned for making a few comments in jest.

I also firmly believe that if this forum bans many more of the professional woodworkers, you'll soon find that the number of semi-skilled members will drop drastically, and then who will give advice to the beginners? And then what will be the point of an empty forum?


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## Johnboy (19 Aug 2007)

Obeone wrote


> admin edit


. Would a mod please care to comment how that statement about 2 respected members is not offensive and a personal attack, especially from someone with only 27 posts.

John


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## MikeW (19 Aug 2007)

Andy,

Regardless of how you were provoked, responding as you did--and it is pretty inclusive of everyone--was also uncalled for.

Facts speak for themselves, we all get snippy (I did at Johnboy this morning--sorry) and we post things in such a way as to attack, no matter whether it is a subtle thing or not.

You could have responded to the charges as you saw them without being inclusive, without using language which was itself provoking a reaction. In that sense, how was your response any different than Jacob's?

None of the above has to do with whether you or he was right or wrong as to content. But the tone and some of thw wording of the message was beyond what it should have taken to defend your honor.

I fall on the side that there should be a bit more freedom of expression on the forum. At the same time, it can only happen if people withhold getting as personal as has happened.

Take care, Mike


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## Johnboy (19 Aug 2007)

Hi Mike, well written response, said many things I meant but expressed better.

No worries about what you said in the other thread, no offense taken.

John


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## andy king (19 Aug 2007)

Hi John,

I did post this after a similar comment was made


> I apologise if you feel it indicates everyone on the forum, it was't meant to, but having to constantly justify my part in the woodworking world when postings are made without foundation does get tiresome, and it was aimed squarely at those people, and they know who they are.


and it really does get tiresome. 
Mike, I agree, it was antagonistic, but as I said in other posts, being the brunt of some very personal digs does make me want to fight my corner.
I do my job to the best of my ability, and if forum members choose not to like it, or not bother with because it doesn't push the right buttons, that's fine, as are reasoned, rational postings regarding it, but Jacob often chooses to make his postings simply to gain reaction, not to offer any real input into a posting, and as I said before, for me to be subjected to accusations of taking bungs and the like, as I have been, then it really does start to grate.
I joined this forum to help and offer advice, and its all I ever wanted to do, but when I read members postings that have an effect on me or my livelihood that have no evidence to back up those claims, what am I expected to do? 
Would other members accept their own occupation or work being dragged through the mud without foundation.

Andy

If I have offended members of the forum, I apologise, but stand by the fact that what was said was aimed at a few members who seem to enjoy doing what they do.


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## DomValente (19 Aug 2007)

Obeone":1d8931rk said:


> Johnboy":1d8931rk said:
> 
> 
> > and just gets his post edited, while senior and Angela get warned!!
> ...



Why would you be happy about that ?

Have Senior and Angela been banned or just warned ?


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## orangetlh (19 Aug 2007)

Banned by the looks of it


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## JFC (19 Aug 2007)

Can't say Dom we are not allowed to talk about it :lol: Rule 5.7 sub section A1.5876 .
Andy i agree with you , if someone questioned my craftmanship without foundation i would wipe the floor with them . However if they have seen it then they may have a valid point :shock: :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2007)

This is all getting a bit like that bird that flies around in ever-decreasing circles and eventually disappears.

Can't we draw a line under all this and start again....... :roll: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## MikeW (19 Aug 2007)

I understand completely, Andy. 

I think that's because when I started making saws there were two people who seemed to go out of their way to cause problems. One I mostly ignored, though his logic was poor (historical and business issues) and I engaged him a couple times.

The other was caustic. Still is. He's now a member here and still is putting out dribble in the form of expertise from time to time. I chalk that up to ignorance and arogance. Because it often contained slights to slams on my character I fought back a lot. It was counter-productive in the sense it used up a lot of mental energy on my part. So I usually avoid his posts except where I can make something more clear to the OP or other readers.

I did take the caustic comments personal, though. Still do. I choose not to respond in kind now. I don't think that is a mark of maturity on my part as a couple people wrote to me saying--in a congratulatory way. Instead I think I am just tired of the fight.

I think that there are always going to be people who disagree with published articles and magazines in particular. Whether it is the ads themselves, means of advertising, or what have you. How they react and respond on a public forum is up to the mods to deal with. I am only responsible for myself, not others' perceptions of me or what I do in my life. It isn't easy, I fail and respond sometimes out of character. For that I need to deal with--but if in poor enough taste in a public forum, so too the mods may have to. For that, when it happens (and it has even here), I am sorry to them and the membership for causing the problems that they in turn have to deal with.

You have my respect for what it is you do professionally, as does each person here--even Jake. As well, each person who participates on the forum has respect from me on several levels. Though I don't post much in the forums here concerning actual woodwork projects anymore, I am amazed at what the members are up to. There is work here which rivals any professional maker.

Take care, Mike


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## orangetlh (19 Aug 2007)

I can completely understand Andys reaction to what was said about him. I have been on the receiving end of other members making you question your own experience and making you have to justify your comments and its not nice. i dont make many posts but i read most of them and give my advice when i feel its needed and suitable, not for the sake of it. When i do give advice, as a pro with experience, having to explain yourself and have people being plain rude about your ideas or suggestions makes you wonder why you bother at all. 

There seems to be a small click of people on this forum who dont seem happy just to take advice and make suggestions, but feel the need to question everything and so alienate other posters. There doesn't seem to be many posts that dont end up diverting away from the original subject or ending up with some kind of bickering recently, normally by the same people over and over. The fact that all these members are being banned recently in my view shows a demise of what used to be a very good forum for advice and seeing peoples projects. I look at the projects forum everyday and see the same people posting work, very good as it is and always nice to see, there isn't much of it. Perhaps if a few of these regular stirrers spent a bit more time in the workshop making items for us all to see there woulndt be so much hassle in this forum.


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## RogerS (19 Aug 2007)

MikeW":4czdhjps said:


> ......-even Jake......



Mike.. why spoil your well reasoned post with an aside like this? Doesn't it detract from your argument?


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## MikeW (19 Aug 2007)

It may detract from my post to you or others. I don't know.

Point is I do appreciate much of what Jacob (which is who I meant, but wrote 'Jake') has to say, as well as Appricotripper's (Jake) posts.

It is that I sometimes do not appreciate the way in which it is said.

Take care, Mike


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## JFC (19 Aug 2007)

Oh , i stopped posting projects/work because i thought people where bored of the trade stuff .


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## Chris Knight (19 Aug 2007)

Jason,
I for one have never tired of your stuff - it seems very varied to me and with some interesting wrinkles or rather challenges that you seem to take in your stride.


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## Newbie_Neil (19 Aug 2007)

Hi Jason



JFC":2q50k28u said:


> Oh , i stopped posting projects/work because i thought people where bored of the trade stuff .



I really enjoy looking at all of your work and I particularly liked the "window making" thread, which received a _*mere*_ 3,266 views.

Cheers,
Neil


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## Paul Chapman (19 Aug 2007)

JFC":r65glkro said:


> Oh , i stopped posting projects/work because i thought people where bored of the trade stuff .



I really enjoy seeing your stuff, Jason  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## PowerTool (19 Aug 2007)

JFC":1l1up0gg said:


> Oh , i stopped posting projects/work because i thought people where bored of the trade stuff .



Not at all - I can quite happily read posts about things I can only dream of being able to make  
Pictures are always good,and a lot can be learnt from them.

I also enjoy intelligent debate,and different points of view and friendly banter - so sincerely hope that Jacob and Senior return to the forum when they have served their pennance.

Andrew


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## JFC (19 Aug 2007)

Hi Neil , welcome to the forum .
I'm sorry i can't help you right now but i'm sure someone will be along soon to finish the thread for me :lol: 
Sorry i couldn't resist :lol: 
On a serious note i do intend on finishing that thread very soon !


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## Mike.C (19 Aug 2007)

Jason you have got to be joking, I think your work is spot on.

Cheers

Mike


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## motownmartin (19 Aug 2007)

JFC":jvh87di7 said:


> Oh , i stopped posting projects/work because i thought people where bored of the trade stuff .



What I have sen so far is far from boring, keep it coming Jason.

Martin


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## newt (19 Aug 2007)

Other forums have folded because of similar issues, if you all want that carry on, if not stop it. My advice for what it is worth is we should all *reset* to zero.


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## Newbie_Neil (19 Aug 2007)

Hi Jason



JFC":1k8hot8m said:


> Hi Neil , welcome to the forum .
> I'm sorry i can't help you right now but i'm sure someone will be along soon to finish the thread for me



As a mod one of the first things that I do is to welcome new members to the forum. But, yes you're right, I will also quite often say that "I'm sorry that I can't help but I'm sure that someone will be along soon". I do this to give the new member a warm feeling, despite emphasising my lack of woodworking skills and knowledge.

I know that I have very limited woodworking skills but I keep trying to learn. It is why I have retained the _*Newbie*_ tag and also why I enjoy threads such as yours on "window making".

Cheers,
Neil


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## JFC (19 Aug 2007)

C'mon i was pulling your leg . Lets have a bit of banter eh mate .


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## Javier (19 Aug 2007)

I thought the thread started by Mr.Grimm reviewing Krenov's book was civil enough, at least where I
had left of reading it. He was even coming around a bit to respecting James. That aside, this is a
great forum for a newbie like myself to see the work of professionals as well as amateurs. Hopefully
this forum will prosper in the spirit of politeness and civility that British folk are famous for. Soccer
hooligans being the exception. :lol:


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## Dave S (19 Aug 2007)

JFC":2fy3g2wr said:


> Oh , i stopped posting projects/work because i thought people where bored of the trade stuff .


Jason, as I have mentioned to you before, I also derive inspiration and enjoyment from seeing 'the trade stuff'  

Dave


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## Newbie_Neil (19 Aug 2007)

JFC":zwtrnw1k said:


> C'mon i was pulling your leg . Lets have a bit of banter eh mate .



No problem.

Cheers,
Neil


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## Jake (19 Aug 2007)

MikeW":1hxpz4lv said:


> You have my respect for what it is you do professionally, as does each person here--even Jake.



Yeah, you just about have my respect for your slightly poxy saws too - your sons are fine makers. : P


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## JFC (19 Aug 2007)

:lol: Now that's funny !!!!!!


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## MikeW (20 Aug 2007)

Jake":2sn58qis said:


> MikeW":2sn58qis said:
> 
> 
> > You have my respect for what it is you do professionally, as does each person here--even Jake.
> ...


Hah...I didn't mean you! At least in the sense of comparing the passions and manner of discourse Mr. G engages in...I meant the other Jake (Appricotripper) who was given the boot and didn't come back (I think). At least I haven't seen his posts here of late.

The boys do a great job, don't they? You should try working with them 6-7 days a week. It makes the forum look like nursery school.

Take care, Mike


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## Paul Chapman (20 Aug 2007)

MikeW":3g85sy77 said:


> I meant the other Jake (Appricotripper) who was given the boot and didn't come back



A great loss to the forum. But I'm pleased to say he's still churning out great stuff elsewhere. A very inspirational bloke :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Newbie_Neil (20 Aug 2007)

Hi Mike



MikeW":2xtdgqos said:


> ..I meant the other Jake (Appricotripper) who was given the boot and didn't come back



It was his own decision to leave and he asked for all of his posts to be deleted.

Cheers,
Neil


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## NeilO (21 Aug 2007)

Apologies JFC, 
as Roger said "the topic was raised..." refered to the original post, that got Jacob banned, not your thread here...

should have probably made it more clearer  

but would like to reiterate " if we are not allowed our own opinion rightly or wrongly , it ceases to be a discussion"


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## Newbie_Neil (22 Aug 2007)

Hi Neil



NeilO":jdwo7k2w said:


> ...but would like to reiterate " if we are not allowed our own opinion rightly or wrongly , it ceases to be a discussion"



There is no problem with having opinions. The problem is when personal attacks take place in posts.

Some members have even gone as far as registering as another member, then attacking their original persona to further their cause.

Cheers,
Neil


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## beech1948 (22 Aug 2007)

I have been subjected to personal attacks by a few of this forum.

They made up a series of cheap acusations from their imagination which could not be sustained by the facts.

My response was to simply wait to see if the mods would react. They did not.

I then chose to ignore these people and stayed quiet for two months to let my anger subside. So more shop time but no posts of my work here as trust of others to be impartial and fair(ish) has been eroded.

I now simply ignore these people and their insidious visiousness they are not worth my time or effort. 

I hope this forum can get back on track and concentrate on woodwork, skill, transfer of knowledge from pro to amateur.

best regards
Alan


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## Newbie_Neil (22 Aug 2007)

Dear Alan

I am very sorry that this has been your experience.

If you, or anyone else, experiences this type of thing please send a pm to one of the mods.

Best regards,
Neil


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## Mike.C (22 Aug 2007)

> Alan,
> 
> I now simply ignore these people and their insidious visiousness they are not worth my time or effort.



Well done Alan. If we can all do the same, then may be they will get fed up and go elsewhere. Then we can get back to the great forum it used to be.

Cheers

Mike


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## ByronBlack (22 Aug 2007)

Alan,

I hope I wasn't one of the people that has upset you, I can't remember if I did or not. I've been involved in a few heated debates on this forum - usually with Mr G. (And my bad choice of words with regards to a tradesman thread). But i've been going out of my way recently not to get involved in anymore of those types of threads, so I thought I would take this oppurtunity to apologise to anyone that I might have offended in some of the heated debates.


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## beech1948 (22 Aug 2007)

BB,
Thanks for message. I don't think you were involved...see I've already forgotten it.

regards
alan


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## Anonymous (22 Aug 2007)

Mike.C":j9qvhnao said:


> > Alan,
> >
> > I now simply ignore these people and their insidious visiousness they are not worth my time or effort.
> 
> ...



Very wise advice.


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## Anonymous (22 Aug 2007)

beech1948":13q1u6js said:


> I have been subjected to personal attacks by a few of this forum.
> 
> They made up a series of cheap acusations from their imagination which could not be sustained by the facts.
> 
> My response was to simply wait to see if the mods would react. They did not.Alan



Alan

Sorry to hear that you felt let down by the moderators. We have to tread a very fine line between upholding the rules and spirit of the forum whilst at the same time trying no to be too heavy handed. 
Also, it is been the case that several disruptive members have trodden a fine line which lies close to breaking the rules whilst not actually stepping over said line.

If members do suffer personal attacks, then please heed Neil's advice that a pm to one of the mods is very good course of action to take.


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## Jake (22 Aug 2007)

I think, if I recall correctly, one of the problems in the thread Beech is referring to is that one of the mods was, if not joining in with the personal attacks, definitely present and contributing to the general mood of the pack. 

Which goes to show that no-one should get self-righteous or convince themselves that they are immune or different and that its all *his* or *their* fault (whoever he or they may be) for "ruining" a forum's atmosphere. People who react and bay for blood are often much worse than the perceived provocateur in the level of personal abuse (you just have just read some Grim threads to see that).


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