# FAO all Woodrat Owners



## Newbie_Neil (22 Jul 2004)

Hi all

I was just looking at the web site of our latest member and thought all you 'rat owners would be interested: -

http://www.aldel.co.uk

Cheers
Neil


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## Chris Knight (22 Jul 2004)

Neil,
Thanks for the link, some interesting stuff there for us ratters.


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## Adam (22 Jul 2004)

Hmm, I agree, never seen that site before. Lots of interesting stuff - and a link back here, so he must have good taste!

Adam


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## devonwoody (22 Jul 2004)

I followed the link from the woodrat site to workshopdemos. There were 600 pages !!!!!!See you in about 4 weeks.


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## ike (22 Jul 2004)

I was particularly interested by the home made honing wheel. I might try that out.


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## Mike.C (22 Jul 2004)

Hi All,

Neil intresting link thank you.

If you had the money to buy either a Leigh Dovetail Jig or a Woodrat, which one would you buy?

If you already owned a Leigh would you sell it and buy a Woodrat?

Could you really make use of both?

I already own a Leigh and i think that it is a excellent product but everytime i go to visit my relations in Ireland they try and convince me to buy a Woodrat, and i must admit they have made some wonderful projects with theres. But is it really as good as owners make out?

Regards

Mike.C


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## aldel (22 Jul 2004)

Hi all

This is my first post on this forum. 
Thanks for all the positive posts regarding my woodrat site.
Some time ago I had a request to contruct a number of boxes with "different" corner joints. This was just the excuse I needed to buy the Leigh with a 'bears ears' template. These joints are certainly different and unique as well as attractive. Once I had gone through the learning curve I found I much preferred the Leigh for dovetails and finger joints.
I found that I used the 'Rat less and less for dovetailing but more and more for all sorts of other joints, box lids etc. After six years with it I am still finding more uses for it. I actual enjoy trying to think up new methods and jigs for it. Sad or what? I have yet to find a person who has regretted buying one. I have a tablesaw, radial arm, chopsaw, band saws router table etc but still find the Woodrat an invaluable addition to the workshop.
Give it some serious consideration, but go for the full one as opposed the the littl'un.

Regards, Aldel http://www.aldel.co.uk


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## Newbie_Neil (22 Jul 2004)

Hi Aldel

Welcome to the forum.

I thought your site would be of interest to the ratters amongst us. :wink: 

Glad to have you on board.

Cheers
Neil


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## Adam (23 Jul 2004)

Mike.C":133fy8vy said:


> If you had the money to buy either a Leigh Dovetail Jig or a Woodrat, which one would you buy?
> 
> If you already owned a Leigh would you sell it and buy a Woodrat?
> 
> Could you really make use of both?



From what I've heard from people who have both, I'd say that yes, you can justify both (if you are rich! at least)

I don't reckon selling a Leigh to buy a Woodrat would be a good idea, as you are A) fully up-to-speed with Leigh and B) it doesn't really make sense to sell a machine at a loss, to buy another equally expensive machine to do the same task.

These days, I think of my woodrat as an alternative to a router table, as much as I think of it as a machine for different joints.

I also, have never met a dissatisfied woodrat owner, but if you were, their does seem to be demand for them - I've only ever seen one or two S/H and they were snapped up. Interestingly, I've seen many Leighs for sale second hand, and have often wondered why - it seems to be a high quality tool, only bought after serious consideration and outlay. I wondered if people bought it as a "miracle cure" to overcome their lack of ability at making dovetails, wheras in fact they don't have enough general skills to really make good use of it?

i.e. you are struggling with dovetails, but to make nice furtniture you need good stock, either bought in, or P/T yourself, a TS, perhaps veneering skills, finishing skills etc, the dovetails are only a small part of any project.

Hmm perhaps I'm going off on one...

Adam


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## Alf (23 Jul 2004)

Welcome, Aldel.  I must say I'm in awe of your inventiveness with regards to the 'Rat. :shock: 

I agree with Adam's points, so there's little point in repeating them! Funny thing is I always enjoy doing dovetails on the 'Rat; there's so many ways you can customise the joint to what you want, and the 'Rat cutters are so much finer than the TCT ones. I did come close to selling mine a few years back, but trouble is I'd miss it. :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (23 Jul 2004)

Alf":1570drk0 said:


> I did come close to selling mine a few years back, but trouble is I'd miss it. :roll:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Sell it to me (I want a seondhand one as new is too expensive) and you could buy _even more planes _ with the money :wink:


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## Adam (23 Jul 2004)

Alf":3sc2b43y said:


> . I did come close to selling mine a few years back, but trouble is I'd miss it. :roll: Cheers, Alf



Shame on you. :twisted: 

Adam


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## Alf (23 Jul 2004)

Tony":1zjyz8au said:


> Sell it to me (I want a seondhand one as new is too expensive) and you could buy _even more planes _ with the money :wink:


Ah, Mr Bond, I was expecting you... <strokes L-N smoother in slightly evil and deranged way> :roll: 

No, no. I've only just unearthed the thing again so I can actually _use it_. What was it buried under? *Planes*. More planes I do not need... :shock: Anyway I realised just how much I couldn't manage without it when I watched a NYW episode kindly video taped and sent to me. I spent the whole time muttering at the screen, "Norm, you need a Woodrat to do that job. Why not use the 'Rat, Norm?" etc etc. Hah! He's got a well-equipped workshop? Without a 'Rat?! Don't make me laugh... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## ike (23 Jul 2004)

Adam wrote:



> I've seen many Leighs for sale second hand, and have often wondered why



I think you're close to hitting the nail on the head there, Adam. I have a Leigh D4. Now I sometimes think "Christ, why did I spend all that money". Don't read me wrong, it's a fantastic tool for dovetails but therein is the crux of it - it only does dovetails unlike the Woodrat. So for example, me thinking I would be saving loadsa time, money and effort having one, it has proved to be not very useful for 99% of the time. I have been comtemplating selling it to invest in a couple of good planes and some chisels, but I am just sooo loath to part with it. It _is_ a lovely bit of kit when I do (rarely) use it!. 

I really should get my act together and relearn the art of handcutting dovetails. It's unlikely however that I will ever be able to master the skill since my eyesight is not exactly 20/20 anymore. Even with the bins on, one has to cope with the optical distortion (is that square or not...hmmm) - I'm sorry, I'm starting to ramble.... 

Ike


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## Anonymous (23 Jul 2004)

Alf":31d1vkvz said:


> Ah, Mr Bond, I was expecting you... <strokes L-N smoother in slightly evil and deranged way> :roll:
> Cheers, Alf



  
Miss moneypenny, for the first time you dissapoint me.. :? 

<last desperate try> how about if I bought you a set of nice shiny LN chisels for the rat?

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=SC-Set

No? oh well.


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## aldel (23 Jul 2004)

Just a quick reply to Ike

The basic Leigh dovetail template _also_ allows you to make finger joints!!
Leigh do a dedicated finger joints template which is excellent.
With the WoodRat you can make any spaced finger joints any size and in batches but lining up is done by eye so very minor errors can creep in --- unless of course you make and use your own template as shown on my 
site!! 

Warning!! If you use a DeWalt router and a guide bush, double check that
the bush and router bit are concentric before using the Leigh

Cheers, Aldel


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## Anonymous (23 Jul 2004)

aldel

see here for tip

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1629


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## Mike.C (23 Jul 2004)

Hi All,

Adam, i did not mean that i was going to get rid of my Leigh, because when it comes to my workshop, £1 for £1 i think that it is one of the best investments i have made.

No what i was trying to find out is: Do owners on this forum come down on one side or the other?
The reason i ask is, if you read posts on other forums it seems to be the "Them and Us" sort of attitude. But they never touch on the question is there really room for them both?
For instance you can do dovetails on the Rat, so could a Rat owner justify buying a Leigh?

Also if you already own a Leigh, a router table, and a morticing machine, would the fact that the Rat can do a bit more then this be justification enough to buy one?

As i said my cousins are always trying to convince me to get one. In fact when i think about it, they are a bit fanatical about their Rats.

Regards

Mike.C


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## Anonymous (23 Jul 2004)

HI Mike

I second your question

I am looking for a second hand rat for jobs other than dovetails as from what I have seen there is no doubt that my Leigh D4 is better for these.


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## Newbie_Neil (23 Jul 2004)

Hi Mike

You have obviously never done a search for rat/woodrat/leigh on this forum.

Please move over Gill, I'm on my way.

Cheers
Neil


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## aldel (23 Jul 2004)

Mike

I have both and would not be without them. Like cameras all these machines have their advantages and disadvantages. A single purpose, dedicated machine will generally be better than a multi purpose one at a set job.
Check that you have enough wall space to mount a WoodRat allowing for tracking the carriage either way. 
Why not post on the Wanted/for sale section of the WoodRat forum?

Aldel


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## ike (23 Jul 2004)

IMHO, I think in addition to quality manufacturing, also the more specific the function of a tool is, generally the better it will perform that function. By "better" I also mean for example, not only a tighter, more accurate joint, but maybe speed of setting up or the rate of work etc. 

For some, the Rat will meet every expectation, for others it won't and likewise, for the Leigh - or for this tool, or for that tool, for lots of tools - it comes back to the same personal equation. The worth of a tool can really only be judged according to the preferred criteria of the potential buyer or the present owner, be that for commercial production or home crafting. I reckon anything I buy, at best maybe half that buying decision is an attempt at objective, logical analysis (i.e. will it do what it says on the tin, do I need it, and is it cost effective?, and can I get the stamp of approval from SHMBO). The other 50% is simply emotions (retail therapy?, brand loyalty?, belief? whatever....maybe lust?).

Ike


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## Alf (23 Jul 2004)

Tony":1txl30bm said:


> <last desperate try> how about if I bought you a set of nice shiny LN chisels for the rat?
> 
> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=SC-Set
> 
> No? oh well.


Why, James, you do know how to tempt a girl... <flutter eyelashes, swoon etc etc>

But NO!  :lol: 

<Fade out to the strains of "Woodrats are forever" sung by Shirleigh Basset and the Liquorice Allsorts> 

Okay, someone get me my medication... :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Adam (23 Jul 2004)

Mike.C":1bfuwocv said:


> The reason i ask is, if you read posts on other forums it seems to be the "Them and Us" sort of attitude.



Ahh, I'm one of _*them *_you see  . It's definately them and us here, me, ALF, frank, and a few others vs Aragorn, Newbie_Neil and Waterhead sits on the fence has he has both! :wink: . Come to think of it, I'm not sure Neil actually owns a Leigh do you? You're just a Leigh fan as and when you get round to purchasing one? I'm mellowing slightly, after seeing the Leigh chap demonstrating at the homewood workshops, it's a nice tool, good engineering (which I always take a shine to) but the setup. Jeepers, I'm finished and in having a cup of tea by the time a Leigh owner would be taking a first cut! (if they were doing a custom spacing anyway).



Mike.C":1bfuwocv said:


> But they never touch on the question is there really room for them both?
> For instance you can do dovetails on the Rat, so could a Rat owner justify buying a Leigh?



I think a Leigh owner could justify buying a 'rat, more than a 'rat owner could justify a Leigh. Funny, I wouldn't think it would be like that, but the Leigh is a "single" purpose tool if you like, and the 'rat is a "multipurpose" tool which overlaps with the Leigh, but does more. Nontheless, I think their is a benefit to it. I love my 'rat for making unusual stepped profiles, unusual joints, and a host of other things I never thought I'd need it to do when I bought it.....



Mike.C":1bfuwocv said:


> Also if you already own a Leigh, a router table, and a morticing machine, would the fact that the Rat can do a bit more then this be justification enough to buy one?



Now it's getting quite close. You have in three seperate machines, the same capability as a 'rat, for me, with such limited space, I like having a 'rat for space reasons. Certainly some things can be done on the 'rat like safe climb cutting, which for me, makes it worth its weight in gold (which is nearly what it feels like it is made of, when you try picking it up!). Ask Waterhead he has both, better still, search for woodrat in the search facility and see our never-ending threads!



Mike.C":1bfuwocv said:


> As i said my cousins are always trying to convince me to get one. In fact when i think about it, they are a bit fanatical about their Rats.



I reckon Godfrey/Henry puts a strange dust in the delivery box somehow, which seems to turn all 'rat owners into fanatical preachers trying to convert the world.

Dunno really, the Leigh has a happy fan club, the 'rat has a fanatically enthusiastic fan club. Perhaps that speaks volumes, about how much they like them respectively?

Dunno.

Adam


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## frank (23 Jul 2004)

mike if your cousins want you to get one why not borrow one off them ,i lent mine to a chap who asked on the woodrat site to see a demo he was doing fitted kitchens when he seen how easy it was to do m/ts plus doing half blind dove tails for the drawers he wanted the full package now thats a lot of dosh , (henry if you read this do i get any freebees for making this sale 8) ) adam am i one of them or one of us :shock: 

just a little rat in the world wide pack . :twisted:


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## Mike.C (23 Jul 2004)

Hi All,

There is one thing about these two jigs that some other manufacturers would do well to take note and that is their manuals. I have only had a quick look at the one that comes with the Rat, but it seems every bit as good as the Leigh.
Why do these manufacturers think that we are all psychic and so except for a picture of the machine, model number, parts list, and the same in 20 other different languages we do not need any more instructions?

Tony, from what has been said looking for a second hand one would be like looking for a needle in a hay stack, except for the one on ebay, but with its reserve price it looks like that will go for near the cost of a new one. But if you do find one let me know and i will buy it. Ha ha.

Neil, you are right i should have done a search.

Aldel, is there a big difference between the big and the little rat? 
What would be the ideal size wall space to mount the Rat.

Adam, i see what you mean about fanatical.

Frank, i have thought about borrowing one off them before, but they live in Wexford (Southern Ireland) and i live in Northern Scotland (Aberdeenshire). I only go over once or twice a year and i am sure that they couldn't do without it for so long.

When you say he wanted the full package what does this consist of and how much does it cost.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Regards

Mike.C

Edit Sorry Tony i messed up, i thought that the Woodrat was £350 but it now appears that i was looking at the price of the Little Rat, and so the Ebay auction may not be all that bad.


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## Newbie_Neil (23 Jul 2004)

Hi Adam



asleitch":33zksaha said:


> I'm not sure Neil actually owns a Leigh do you?



Err, yes. :lol: 


Hi Mike

The Leigh is the best jig in the world, bar none, for producing variably spaced dovetails.

The 'rat is obviously very good at a wide range of joints. I have looked at the 'rat twice and on both occasions I was put off by the wonderful demonstration, not. The guy who invented the 'rat hasn't got a clue about how to demonstrate it.

You really need to see one in use and then make your decision.

I really like the legacy mill which, I feel, is a bit like a 'rat on steroids. It has an x/y axis and is also pretty nifty at turning as well.

Sorry, I've probably made it worse now.

Cheers
Neil


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## frank (23 Jul 2004)

mike it was the big rat +plung bar +alu rails +all the 1/2 inch router bits ie the sets and any other bits price wise loads a money ,if alf works it all out i think she might have to sit down for a while. did i say he makes fitted kitchens the one he is making at the mo is american white oak the cost £18 k :? i think i will go and lay down for a while :wink:


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## Aragorn (23 Jul 2004)

asleitch":ptu62x8v said:


> It's definately them and us here, me, ALF, frank, and a few others vs Aragorn, Newbie_Neil and Waterhead sits on the fence has he has both!Adam


Hey - leave me out of it! :wink: 
Ah, Rat vs Leigh.... "banging, brick, head, wall" spring to mind.
:roll: 




:roll: 













:roll:


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## Alf (24 Jul 2004)

Aragorn":1dfvtpk9 said:


> Ah, Rat vs Leigh.... "banging, brick, head, wall" spring to mind.


Nonsense. As soon as the pro-Leigh camp finally see the error of their ways, dump the "jig" and apologise profusely for ever daring to assume their paltry piece of tat is even in the same league as the Glorious 'Rat routing machine, everything will be hunky dory... :wink: 

Nope, you were right the first time...







Cheers, Alf :lol:


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## Aragorn (24 Jul 2004)

LOL!
What a find that smilie is! You must have a secret stash somewhere.

Well - if it helps put an end to the comparison of _completely different _woodworking aids, then <sigh> y e s, the Leigh is pants; what were we thinking even reading the ad for it in the first place.
Mine's in the bin even as we speak, though I had to wrap it in plastic as the dustbins haven't done anything wrong to be tainted by such filth. </sigh>

There. Hope you're happier now! :wink: 

___________________
Cheers!
Aragorn

*Leigh rules*


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## DaveL (24 Jul 2004)

Aragorn":1dgwi1si said:


> Mine's in the bin even as we speak, though I had to wrap it in plastic



OK then just _where_ is this bin that I feel a *desperate* need to empty? :wink:


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## Adam (24 Jul 2004)

Alf":110pfmsc said:


> Aragorn":110pfmsc said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, Rat vs Leigh.... "banging, brick, head, wall" spring to mind.
> ...



And after building such a strong reputation for honesty, integrity and accurate reviews in her LV series, it's nice to see ALF writing another comprehensive, accurate and concise review of the 'rat vs Leigh arguments.

Spot on Alf!

Adam


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## aldel (25 Jul 2004)

Hello folks, Aldel here.

I have been reading with interest some of the comments regarding Leigh Jigs/WoodRat etc .
From a hobby woodworkers point of view, lets face it, none of them are required. It can all be done by hand. Beautiful antique furniture was all made by hand. To plane a piece of wood a lowly wooden plane will do. You do not _need_ a L.N. In any hobby, a very large part of the pleasure comes from just owning and using a quality piece of kit. That secret and unadmitted feeling of one upmanship that no one will ever admit to. When purchasing such high end equipment, its done because you want to,(lust after?) and you can just about afford it!! Its your hobby after all and it gives you tremendous pleasure. Justification has no real part in the equation at all. Justification is just psychological appeasement to the guilt and torture of the purchase decision and probably to keep the partner sweet.
If you want it ,can afford it, buy it. Use it, enjoy it, tell people about it.
If it doesn't come up to expectations, sell it and gain experience from it!!

Thanks, rant over OOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhh that feels better now.

If you have time, cross over to the dark side and have a browse through this thread [url]www.walcotmedia.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=108

Regards Aldel


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## Newbie_Neil (25 Jul 2004)

Hi Aldel



aldel":28l56wak said:


> If you have time, cross over to the dark side



Now that has to be the scariest forum I have ever seen in my life. :lol: 

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (25 Jul 2004)

Aragorn":1wq0r3jm said:


> LOL!
> What a find that smilie is! You must have a secret stash somewhere.


'Cos you've now seen the light about _that jig_, I'll share :wink: : http://mysmilies.com/



aldel":1wq0r3jm said:


> You do not _need_ a L.N.


 :shock: Well of course you've not been here long... :roll: :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## ike (25 Jul 2004)

> If you want it ,can afford it, buy it. Use it, enjoy it, tell people about it.
> If it doesn't come up to expectations, sell it and gain experience from it!!



Aldel,

Very succinct analysis- totally agree. I think my Leigh jig has to go.

Ike


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2004)

ike":8ny8phvd said:


> > If you want it ,can afford it, buy it. Use it, enjoy it, tell people about it.
> > If it doesn't come up to expectations, sell it and gain experience from it!!
> 
> 
> ...


Why? for a woodrat?
Woodrat v Leigh is a nonsense and I cannot understand why people continually compare them 

Leigh does great dovetails and cannot be matched for them. It is the best dovetail jig - fast and incedibly accurate. For the same price as the Rat (+ cutter set etc.) you could buy the Leigh D4 and a couple of other templates for finger joints and some fancy joints.

Woodrat does loads of things (swiss army knife?) - even dovetails and is nothing like the Leigh to use. Dovetails on the rat are clearly more difficult and prone to error as part of the process requires marking with a pencil (I have read woodrat manual and loads of posts + seen a demo on this).
However, rat does mortice and tenon as well as finger joints and I would say that it has many uses that the Leigh could not possibly be used for. Flexibility.

They are different machines to accomplish different things

I would quite like a woodrat (not paying £475 though) but would still cut my DTs on the Leigh


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## ike (26 Jul 2004)

Tony wrote:



> Why? for a woodrat?



No, I don't want a Woodrat either. For one, they're too expensive for my liking. I'll stick to using router table and mortiser plus the old fashioned ways.

The Leigh was an impulse buy. I've had it several years and hardly use it. Half-blind dovetails could be satisfactory accomplished for drawers with a cheaper jig, and for feature, thru dovetails with the hand made look - well probably by hand given how often I'll want to make them!. 

Still, even though it hasn't earn't it's keep, I'm loath to part with it, cos on the rare occasions I use it, it's a fantastic tool, especially for inlaid dovetails. On the other hand I could put the money toward some better hand tools. SWMBO thinks I'd be daft to get rid of it.


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## Mike.C (26 Jul 2004)

Hi Tony,

After reading past posts both here and elsewhere i have to agree with you 100%.
The Rat is an ideal jig for someone who has a small workshop and/or has yet to buy their mortiser, dovetail jig etc etc. But for those of us that already have these £475 is a lot of money just to double up on tools/machines you already have to do these joints.

Don't get me wrong if money was no object i would go out and snap one up now, because from what i have read it is a highly accurate jig that with a bit of practise can knock out superb joints time and time again.

As you say to compare it with the Leigh is nonsense. The Leigh will beat it hands down at making all sorts of dovetail joints, but it walks all over the Leigh when it comes to any other joint. Why? because you cannot use the Leigh for any other joint. It is like comparing a table saw and a combination machine, the table saw rips and cross cuts really nice, but is total rubbish as a spindle moulder.

Anyway i am sticking with my Leigh unless i win the lottery.

Regards

Mike.C


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## frank (26 Jul 2004)

now then guys and gals rat v leigh,  what about man u v man city its just a game isnt it :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: start digging that bunker frank


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## Adam (27 Jul 2004)

Mike.C":l3mnsrhz said:


> As you say to compare it with the Leigh is nonsense. The Leigh will beat it hands down at making all sorts of dovetail joints,




Nope. I think this is a little rash surely? The 'rat is sold as a dovetail "solution" and I've yet to see any Leigh make a "better" dovetail.



Mike.C":l3mnsrhz said:


> The Rat is an ideal jig for someone who has a small workshop and/or has yet to buy their mortiser, dovetail jig etc etc. But for those of us that already have these £475 is a lot of money just to double up on tools/machines you already have to do these joints.



I'd agree about the small workshop bit  But its it's flexibility at speeding you through as yet unforeseen difficulties on projects that seem to make it justify it's cost in my workshop. You know the "if I could just notch that there" or "just take a cut here" and all of a sudden you can, safely.



Tony":l3mnsrhz said:


> Leigh does great dovetails and cannot be matched for them. It is the best dovetail jig - fast and incedibly accurate.



I can do great Dovetails on my woodrat, the question is can the Leigh match them? I know lets have a competition - how about a nice set of authentic looking close-as-possible-to-handcut looking dovetail, Leigh vs Woodrat - shall we say 1:6? Oh, do I hear the Leigh crowd wisper, "we can only do 1:7"? Without buying another template? Can you get a 1:6 template for the Leigh? How about 1:8? 1:9? :wink: How about time to changover the spacing? Oh, the woodrat doens't have to do anything to changeover spacing - I'd certainly say the 'rat seems faster :lol: Only teasing :roll:. Anyway, I sent to see the lovely Leigh jigs being demonstrated, and here's my take, which I posted in the previous thread, a few weeks ago....



asleitch_going_on_about_rats_again......":l3mnsrhz said:


> I own a 'rat, and am happy, but was at the Homewood workshops the other day, when they were reviewing jigs, and sharpeners, and they had the Leigh chap from Brimarc demonstrating.
> 
> Boy, I thought perhaps everyone who kept saying how hard the woodrat is to understand and learn might be correct, until I saw the Leigh in action. OK, there is a one off time to learn the woodrat but after that, it's plain sailing. I can finish a batch of drawers in the time it takes to setup a Leigh. He only had an hour to demonstrate the Leigh dovetails, finger joints, the "fancy joints" the M&T, sliding deovetails, so he was motoring through the demo, but even so, "slide this bit in", check, "draw a pencil line here", take the wood out, "put the other piece in", flip this the other way up, "take a cut", careful yiou dont' dip in between the pins, watch out for tear out here, "flip this back, loosen here, align here........ it went on a bit I have to say! Also, quite a few time when demonstrating he seemed to set things up on the Leigh "by eye". He kept saying align this to the 20mm graduation etc. I guess I'd presumed that there wasn't any "set-up" on the Leigh which was "user" adjustable.
> 
> ...



Any Leigh owners starting to panic they may have made the wrong purchase click below to soothe the pain.


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## Alf (27 Jul 2004)

Adam":o2gjyum4 said:


> Any Leigh owners starting to panic they may have made the wrong purchase click below to soothe the pain.


Chortle! :lol:


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## Anonymous (27 Jul 2004)

asleitch":34unjyll said:


> I know lets have a competition - how about a nice set of authentic looking close-as-possible-to-handcut looking dovetail, Leigh vs Woodrat -



Sorry, Leigh does *accurate* dovetails rather than hand cut replicas. Nice to see someone own up to the inaccuracies of the rat though. :twisted: 

Move over Gill...

Adam, shame you live so far away, if you were closer I could show you how I set up my Leigh in under 2 minutes.


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## Adam (27 Jul 2004)

Tony":3oy6cq3l said:


> asleitch":3oy6cq3l said:
> 
> 
> > I know lets have a competition - how about a nice set of authentic looking close-as-possible-to-handcut looking dovetail, Leigh vs Woodrat -
> ...



What I meant was, the mecca of any jig is to approach the thinness, and low slope angle of the hand-cutdovetail. Nothing to do with accuracy, it's mainly a limit of what manufacturers produce in terms of angle on their cutters. I thought (although I could be wrong as I haven't investigated it much) that Leigh owners were limited to just a single slope angle due to the need for a template? I don't think I was clear there, for me, hand-cut dovetails by someone competent (not me then) are the ultimate, in fineness of slope angle and thinness of neck, and no jig can come close, - they may look "perfect" i.e. no gaps - but the whole joint shape is determined by the availablility of TCT/HSS cutters, you cannot achieve anything as aesthetic as the neck on the cutter would have to be too fine and liable to snap. The woodrat cutters are better in that respect, but even then by no means ideal, both the Leigh and the 'Rat produce accurate 'tails, at least I do on mine - as do most other people. Adam

[who as a type A person in John Elliotts recent posting actually handcut his last batch of dovetails, as, having handmade the entire rest of the box, was told by his teacher to stop moaning and get on with cutting them by hand.  ]


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## Anonymous (27 Jul 2004)

Sorry Adam, couldn't resist it - I knew what you meant.

I am interested in trying a rat but can't find a second hand one - no response to my request


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## Adam (27 Jul 2004)

Tony":u20a24qe said:


> Sorry Adam, couldn't resist it - I knew what you meant.
> 
> I am interested in trying a rat but can't find a second hand one - no response to my request



In all seriousness, I reckon anyone making a range of projects would find many uses for it. Like you say once you are up and running with a Leigh, and are happy and fast with it, their is no reason to change. What you are buying then is a controllable 3-dimensionable router table - effictively a milling machine - which I'm sure you can see the benefit of :roll: , with workpiece holding. All I can suggest is to find someone close enough to borrow one from (difficult, 'cos I don't like lending my tools out) or find someone to give you a "home" demonstration, or take a course, if you need extra confidence before purchase. Certainly I made this:

















On both these, it was the M&T where it excelled itself, over and above other techniuqes as I was able to produce a stepped, pronged tenon, with repeatably - which was very handy. It got used for all sorts in these projects, it's the repeatability aspect I like. There are however, no dovetails on these projects, I just found it handy to use it in one of it's "other" modes.

Adam


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## Anonymous (27 Jul 2004)

Adam, I love that table (for your sister? I think). 

Only thing about the rat that gives me cause for concern is the scrubbing brush under the table for slot cutting. I can believe that it works OK but have serious doubts about safety and accuracy - appears to be the least thought-out piece of the machine. Have you used the brush at all, or is there a better way?

I might bite the bullet and go for one as I am due to have an important operation this afternoon and will be at home 'recuperating' for a while but won't be able to use hand tools.


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## andrewm (27 Jul 2004)

Tony":dnkuocdz said:


> Only thing about the rat that gives me cause for concern is the scrubbing brush under the table for slot cutting. I can believe that it works OK but have serious doubts about safety and accuracy - appears to be the least thought-out piece of the machine. Have you used the brush at all, or is there a better way?



Tony,

I went on Mike Humpries' Woodrat course at the end of last year and it was well worth it. He is none to complimentary about the scrubbing brush either and has a table that clamps onto the woodrat and is a much better proposition. 

If you are thinking of getting a 'rat it might be worth doing the course first. If you come away liking it then it will stand you in good stead from the outset in the best way of doing things and if you come away not liking the 'rat then you will have spent less than buying one to find out.

Andrew


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## Adam (27 Jul 2004)

Tony":130hmsuj said:


> Adam, I love that table (for your sister? I think).



Thankyou



Tony":130hmsuj said:


> Only thing about the rat that gives me cause for concern is the scrubbing brush under the table for slot cutting. I can believe that it works OK but have serious doubts about safety and accuracy - appears to be the least thought-out piece of the machine. Have you used the brush at all, or is there a better way?



Only for scrubbing me nails! Err, I have no idea what the scrubbing brush is for, but yes, one did come in the box, and several years later, its still in use next to the kitchen sink!



Tony":130hmsuj said:


> I might bite the bullet and go for one as I am due to have an important operation this afternoon and will be at home 'recuperating' for a while but won't be able to use hand tools.



Best of luck for that then, I hope you recouperate as quickly as possible. Nothing like a new toy to cheer you up. You would need assistance to set/lift it into position - and the box it arrives in is really quite heavy. The unit itself doesn't weigh an insignificant amount, so need good mounting points. Once up and running, if you were only doing little things like jewellry boxes etc, I'd imagine you'd be OK.

Adam

Adam


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## Alf (27 Jul 2004)

Tony":pk0jhkah said:


> Only thing about the rat that gives me cause for concern is the scrubbing brush under the table for slot cutting. I can believe that it works OK but have serious doubts about safety and accuracy - appears to be the least thought-out piece of the machine. Have you used the brush at all, or is there a better way?


It actually works surprisingly well, and accurately. But for maximum safety I've taken to using the table and tunnel technique. <rummage, rummage...> Here ya go, Hawkmoth shows it here and here. The table is a horribly under-promoted shop-made add-on that's worth its weight in gold. <further rummage> Various shots of mine here.



Tony":pk0jhkah said:


> I might bite the bullet and go for one as I am due to have an important operation this afternoon and will be at home 'recuperating' for a while but won't be able to use hand tools.


Ooo, good luck then. Not using hand tools? The cure _must_ be worse than the disease! :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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