# What the hell is wrong with MDF ?



## smiffy (6 Dec 2004)

I could not help noticing the anti-MDF posts in the forum, so I thought I should take the opportunity.

Even though I take the point that it may not be true cabinet making using MDF, it can be put to good use in making some decent (but bloody heavy) furniture. I have used both raw and veneered and they always seem to put the better quality veneers on MDF than on chipboard.
Granted, it is horrible stuff to work with as far as the mess it makes, but it is stable (hence very good for speaker cabinets, fireplaces and radiator covers).
I have worked in a kitchen manufacturers woodworking shop where the owner refused point blank to ever use it due the bad press. While everyone else was making coated MDF doors with nice mouldings etc, he was using the more limited and much less versatile chipboard. He went bust last month.

Anyway, have a look at the kitchen I made for my own home here.
http://www.raysmiffy.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kitchen.xml
Note the rustic look (read as 'built in margin for roughness') :roll: 

The carcasses and the doors are 18mm MDF, and 12mm MDF for the unit back panels. The carcasses and the doors are painted with the Dulux brand of the 16x harder than ordinary emulsion. This resisted the tendency to chip and peel, bit it was very easily marked. The solution was to further coat with water based varnish which created a wipe easy clean surface.
The hardwood used is Ash (also very heavy)

The main point is, if you are prepared to put in the effort, you can get exactly the kitchen you want for a fraction of the price of even from MFI.

I agree MDF is horrible stuff in the workshop, but it is one of the cheapest, stable and versatile boards you can get.
Of course, you guys that have used it know this already.

Cheers,
Ray.


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## Midnight (6 Dec 2004)

This is a serious question...??

Coming from somebody who openly refuses to touch the stuff, much less work with it, you might view my answers with scepticism...

1/, as you've pointed out, the dust issue... 

2/, is there anything that could possibly be more labour intensive i.e. needing finishing on all 6 sides???

3/, it's reliance on a veneer as a stressed skin to give it any kinda structural integrity; 50mm thick shelves may be somebody's idea of fun but they sure ain't mine

4/, the weight issue; granted it's ideal for speaker cabinets, but having walked away from one heart attack, I don't fancy another trying to manhandle that stuff...

5/, the fumes issue; I honestly prefer not to install something that's gonna off-gas Formaldehyde constantly for years to come. 

6/ it's absolutely devoid of character; utterly reliant on a veneer to make it look like anything except recycled paper pulp

call me a boring auld fart, but I'll stick to working with the real thing...


N.B. Smiffy.... blunt though this has been, I stress that my issues are with the material....NOT you..!!! If you can turn that stuff into a thing of beauty, more power to yer elbow...


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## smiffy (6 Dec 2004)

You are absolutely right of course in most of your points. Especially point 6. But then I always look at it as a blank canvas needing painting and enhanced with real wood features, the right handles/knobs etc.

Like I said, it is not in the same league as real wood furniture. For kitchens, wardrobes and the like, it will do. If I made my kitchen with solid wood doors, I would be adding at least £2000 to the cost. And I would rather have a widescreen TV :lol: And in fact this is the reason I chose to go with MDF doors.

Point 5 is a bit scary though. Haven't they banned the use of Formaldehyde in the bonding agent these days?

Ray.


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## Midnight (6 Dec 2004)

If they haven't, I hope they get at it real soon... but the prob isn't the legislation or the lack of it; until it's globally accepted and enforced, all it takes is one rogue manufacturer churning the stuff out someplace where regulations are frowned at to tar the rest with the same brush... 

Put another way, does the EEC have the legislative power to ban imports from manufacturers who refuse to stop using it? The whole thing strikes me as a massive rubbish shoot; there's no way of telling for sure exactly what it is you're dealing with unless you get a sample of every board / batch / consignment tested; how much extra cost will that pass on to the end user???

Naa.. like I said.... call me a boring auld fart, but I'll stick with the real stuff; the most I gotta worry about is reaction wood....


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## Adam (6 Dec 2004)

This is interesting:

http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm

*Advantages:* -There are a number of reasons why MDF may be used instead of plywood or chipboard. It is dense, flat, stiff, has no knots and is easily machined. Because it is made up of fine particles it does not have an easily recognisable surface grain. MDF can be painted to produce a smooth quality surface. Because MDF has no grain it can be cut, drilled, machined and filed without damaging the surface. MDF may be dowelled together and traditional woodwork joints may even be cut. MDF may be glued together with PVA wood glue. Oil, water-based paints and varnishes may be used on MDF. Veneers and laminates may also be used to finish MDF

Disadvantages: -MDF can be dangerous to use if the correct safety precautions are not taken. MDF contains a substance called urea formaldehyde, which may be released from the material through cutting and sanding. Urea formaldehyde may cause irritation to the eyes and lungs. Proper ventilation is required when using it and facemasks are needed when sanding or cutting MDF with machinery. The dust produced when machining MDF is very dangerous. Masks and goggles should always be worn at all times. Due to the fact that MDF contains a great deal of glue the cutting edges of your tools will blunt very quickly. MDF can be fixed together with screws and nails but the material may split if care is not taken. If you are screwing, the screws should not be any further than 25mm in from the edge. When using screws always use pilot holes. _Urea formaldehyde is always being slowly released from the surface of MDF_. When painting it is good idea to coat the whole of the product in order to seal in the urea formaldehyde. Wax and oil finishes may be used as finishes but they are less effective at sealing in the urea formaldehyde.



..... as a result this has (in general) put me off, is realising it releases formaldehyde gas for a significant length of time after manufacture. Luckily I get to choose whether or not to use it, and if I needed to use it in my house, I'd buy Zero-formaldehyde stuff which is now available. If I was a professional however, I'd be covering my backside against future claims of "ill-health" etc due to breathing said gas of kitchen/cabinet etc that you sold to a customer, by definately mentioning it up front as a risk factor, and making sure I always used zero-F MDF.

I think it's shown the dust is *no-worse* than any other - thats because *all *dust seems to be bad for you!

Having said all that, I knocked up some MDF shelves for work over the W/e - just made sure I won't be sitting in the same room as them! :? 

Adam


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## smiffy (6 Dec 2004)

I have emerged from the workshop after a hard, sweaty days graft working in a haze (probably) of MDF dust, my eyes nipping for a good few days afterwards. I have also had the same effect working with nothing but mahogany, oak or even the ash I used in my kitchen. I used extraction and a good quality mask (10 times better than the one that Handy Andy uses anyway:wink: ) Not the full face mask I should have used though.
I always felt that even though the level of nippy eyes was the same, the natural wood induced nippyness was acceptable. :shock: :roll: :wink: 

The point is, use the appropriate safe practices as always when working in the workshop, regardless of what material you use and you should be OK. You know that of course. I used goggles, but they were the kind with the holes around the sides of the eye piece, hence letting the dust in. 

I have to say though, I always put my work clothes after working with MDF into a bag and do not sit around the house in them. 

I do not like working with the stuff as you can probably gather.

Ray.


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## trevtheturner (6 Dec 2004)

Despite all the pros & cons your kitchen looks great smiffy. I'm sure LOYL is delighted with it.

Cheers,

Trev.


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## Adam (6 Dec 2004)

Yeah forgot that bit off my post, your kitchen looks superb. Really like the style and finishing touches.

Adam


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## Noel (6 Dec 2004)

I'm pretty sure that some US states have banned disposal of formaldehyde MDF in land fill sites for the reasons Adam has stated.
Imagine we'll have similar regulations eventually.

Noel


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## Midnight (6 Dec 2004)

The guys are right Ray..... yer nae exactly short changed in the skills dept. That said.. I still have grave reservations about going to all that effort... only to have to clag Fragile... and Toxic labels on everything... kinda defeats the purpose...

sheesh.... this is startin to sound like a sermon....

just for the record... for case goods, I've learned that Baltic Birch ply takes some beating for strength/weight and ease of use... real good stuff to work with...


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## tim (7 Dec 2004)

An interesting debate indeed. I am curious though what solution is provided by the 'MDF is the devil's work' clan as a suitable alternative where strong, flat panels are needed. True Baltic Birch can be used but it is 3 times the price, still needs prepping on all 6 sides and needs sanding as well.

If you are trying to make a living out of this and customers can easily compare cabinet prices then you have to level the playing field if there is any chance of competing with Malaysian 9 year olds or factories churning out a million units a year

I use Zero F Ultralight MDF where possible which is slightly more expensive but I still hate the dust etc. But for cost effectiveness I have yet to find a viable alternative - not saying there isn't one just I'm not aware of it.

Also didn't understand Midnight's comment:



> 3/, it's reliance on a veneer as a stressed skin to give it any kinda structural integrity; 50mm thick shelves may be somebody's idea of fun but they sure ain't mine


. 

What structural integrity does it lack? Sure it deflects over wide spans so I lip it with a hardwood edge. Is there something I'm missing?

I don't think anyone would argue about the lack of character - but that's not what its used for. 

So come on guys, whats the alternative? 

BTW very nice kitchen Ray.

Cheers

Tim


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## Midnight (7 Dec 2004)

> What structural integrity does it lack? Sure it deflects over wide spans so I lip it with a hardwood edge. Is there something I'm missing?



If you can tolerate me shooting from the hip... I can try to model what I was on about...

case in point... take a traditional flat packed 1 metre kitchen unit, and model the load on the centre shelf. Traditionally the only support this gets are the press fit plastic elbows; a pair at each side plus one behind the centre vertical brace. 

Subject the shelf to a "normal" load. Maybe I should make that nominal... whatever.. unbraced (point taken with the hardwood lipping btw.... I do the same with ply), the shelf's gonna deflect under load, usually sagging badly towards the rear of centre (unsupported). Measure the deflection at its lowest point. 

These shelves are traditionally clad in a low maintainance vinyl (or similar) cladding that lends a ton of tensile strength through the glue bond. 

Take a utility knife and score the underside of the shelf, front to back, along the centre line. Devoid of the tensile strength of the cladding, the load is now borne by the core material of the shelf; the deflection will be significantly greater... measure and compare...

In terms of overall damage, the depth of the cut in relation to the overall thickness of the shelf is neglegable; in a ply shelf of the same thickness the strength lost would be minimal. However, with the integrity of the stressed skin compromised, it wouldn't take too much additional load for the deflection to increase to the point where the shelf fails structurally. 

Long winded I know but it's the only way I could think of "modeling" stressed skin at this time of night...


The latter part of your post is a more serious matter... With our higher cost of living / higher expected earnings etc, there's no way we can complete on a level playing field with the mass manufactured mess; to try to would be economic suicide... the way I see it, we gotta play to our strengths...
The mass manufactured stuff is playing to the 55th percentile; Joe average. As cabinet makers, we can offer a bespoke service; tailored specifically to suit the exact requirements of any customer. Being bespoke craftsman, we have a range of material open to us as opposed to veneered chipboard or other pulp based media. Gotta emphasis the quality... the craftsmanship... hand made features as opposed to mass produced rubbish. With improved quality, we can design in features that enable longevity; carcasses built to last a succession of door and drawer front upgrades if that's what the customer wishes, *or* built to withstand the rigors of daily use for decades.

Then there's the safety side of things.... when you're making the sales pitch, make it plain that while you can offer the cheaper materials, those materials can carry substantial health risks, both to you as manufacturer and to them; they're the ones suffering the effects of years of off-gassing should the integrity of the finish be compromised even slightly... However, for a moderate increase in cost, you can offer materials that are stronger, sturdier, far better in appearance and safer, both to you and them...

I agree with you, irrespective of the media used, it still needs similar sanding / prep / finishing time... However ply or solid wood opens a whole range of finishes that can cut the finishing time of MDF to shreds... John will correct me if I'm wrong, but 3-6 coats..????? That's a ton of work... making inroads into that should more than compensate for the more expensive materials...

Good grief.... this was supposed to be a quick reply..not another bl&%dy sermon...
If I'm being too nieve, correct me where I'm wrong... I'm big enough to take being told I'm talking rubbish.....


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## kityuser (7 Dec 2004)

> If I made my kitchen with solid wood doors, I would be adding at least £2000 to the cost.



not true. I have just installed my own home made kitchen, solid beech doors (ash and oak was considered, both cheaper).

I can tell you that the door-wood cost me around 600 squid and I have plenty left. It may not be as many doors as you would need, but I`d say 1000 quid at the very tops!!!!!


I`d always worry in a kitchen that MDF tends to act like a sponge............


steve


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## Chris Knight (7 Dec 2004)

Ray,

It is a great looking kitchen!


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## Newbie_Neil (7 Dec 2004)

Hi Ray

Great kitchen, you've really done well.

What the last few days has given us is an appreciation of the quality of work that people are producing with mdf. You only have to look at Keith's wardrobes and window seat, Tim's boutique units, John Elliott's kitchens and Jason's utility room cupboards to get an idea of the quality that can be produced.

I think, that as a board, we have matured into a very healthy debating forum. Long may it last.

Cheers
Neil

PS My apologies to anyone that I've missed.

PPS Why is Mr M hiding at the back?


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## Anonymous (7 Dec 2004)

Hi Smiffy

What's wrong with MDF (for me)?

You have to paint it. Pure and simple.

If you get veneered MDF, it does not look like solid wood.

I have this woodworking hobby because I like the feel and look of wood.

However, I am happy to use MDF in my garage as shelves (with loads of brackets to stop bending under load) and to make jigs. Also sometiems use 6mm MDF as cabinet backs

I must say that the recent posts do show really impressive results with the stuff and I would say that it is probably THE material for modern contempory kitchens to get the popular 'clean' look.


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## tim (7 Dec 2004)

Mike,

Thanks for the 'quick' reply. Can't help but think that the flat pack kitchen units you refer to are chipboard and not MDF. I don't know of any mainstream flat pack manufacturer that uses MDF instead of chip/ particle board. On that front I would totally agree with you and I would never in a million years use chipboard. Maybe I'm mistaken but can you confirm that you are comparing like with like.

Re market dynamics, I also agree with you that we are not competing for the 55th percentile but there is a substantial group above that (probably the 25th - 50th who do want nice stuff that is a bit different and are prepared to pay a bit more (generally for what they see is different). Telling them that an alternative material could be used which is three times the price which will be used for cabinet boxes that they won't really see again will result in a 'no sell'. My experience with this group is that they are nice people who pay on time and will come back for more and there are a lot of them. None of that detracts from the bespoke craftsmanship nor affects the lifespan. As a result I have chosen not to ignore this market. There aren't enough of customers (for me anyway) who 'don't care what it costs just make it the best it can be'.

From a health and safety and environmental angle: there are zero emission panels out there that are light in weight and moisture resistant. I use them. I'd rather use them than the 15 or so board feet of solid tree that is needed for average kitchen cabinet. 

On the finishing front - I agree about the laboriousness of 3-6 coats which is why I generally lip bare edges with solid timber - which takes very little time. However, if you look through the finishing forum and others like it you will see regular threads about the 5th coat of spar varnish (after hours of rubbing down between coats) - not deemed a waste of time there? No, because it looks beautiful. Get the finish right on a panel product and it looks beautiful. Its not cherry or walnut - its not meant to be!

Finally (this was also meant to be short!) I agree with Neil - its great to be able to have mature and passionate debates about a subject be it hobby or work that we love. If you try to have these sort of exchanges on other ones (esp US ones) everybody is reaching for their guns before the end of the third thread! :shock: 

Cheers

Tim

PS Mods - is there a better spellchecker that can be linked to the board - the current one is pants!


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## Newbie_Neil (7 Dec 2004)

Hi Tim



tim":9o7mm4vo said:


> PS Mods - is there a better spellchecker that can be linked to the board - the current one is pants!



Yes, it's called MS Word. :roll: 

Sorry
Neil


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## Aragorn (7 Dec 2004)

I try not to make this decision on behalf of my customer.
Usually I'll just ask what materials they had in mind. Very often, people know what they want, e.g. "I don't mind about the insides, I'll leave that to you, but the outside must be solid wood."

This is a typical response I hear all the time. Depending on the application I would then use pine boards or hardwood for the stuff that shows, and a suitable sheet material for the stuff that doesn't.
If it needs to be easily wiped down and low load-bearing, then it's melamine (horrible stuff), otherwise edged plywood, occasionally edged MDF (I mostly avoid it because working with it makes me feel ill for a day, even with a face mask).

I think really good cases have been made for and against the use of this glorified cardboard. For me it is more and more coming down to what kind of work* I* want to do. I just don't get satisfaction from knocking out MDF flat-packs, and ultimately I will turn down the job, or make a quote that matches my reluctance to do the work!


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## Alf (7 Dec 2004)

It's lousy to work with hand tools. End of argument as far as I'm concerned.




It has it's uses, and if I was doing this for money then obviously other considerations would carry a lot more weight so I'd probably be using it too; but it's heavy, it has no lateral strength, the dust just seems so much finer and messier than any other and it looks pants without considerable finishing work. Oh, and it doesn't keep well in the moist Cornish climate.





Cheers, Alf


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## gidon (7 Dec 2004)

Interesting discussion ...



Alf":3vjwj75d said:


> It's lousy to work with hand tools.



Really? I took my new LA jack to it on Sunday without any problems :lol: :lol: (Before you confiscate the said tool, in my defence I was desperate!)

But Ray, I use MDF in the workshop, for jigs and cupboards etc. It's very handy: easy to machine, flat and CHEAP. But I tend to steer clear for any furniture I'm making. Also even with cut down sheets it's a pain to use when you have limited room.

Interested to hear more about this "zero F" stuff? Is this what B&Q sell - since that's where I get my MDF from? If not do any of the sheds sell it? I've found myself feeling very tired coming back in from the shed recently (even if I'm only there for a short time) - and I have been using a lot of MDF - with a face mask on whilst cutting ...

My sister has been choosing a kitchen the last few months. She is finding the standard offering (in the price range they are looking at) is solid wood for frames of doors and veneered MDF for panel door. Not sure about carcass construction - I guess in even the very pricey kitchens this is still made from sheet materials?

Really lovely kitchen by the way Ray.

Cheers

Gidon


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## tim (7 Dec 2004)

Alf



> Oh, and it doesn't keep well in the moist Cornish climate.



How much would a solid slate kitchen cost I wonder?

Although I'm not sure how much the Formaldehyde emissions would matter with all that Radon around. :lol: 

I agree 100% with Aragorn - although maybe i'm lucky that it doesn't make me feel sick. My life improved no end when I hung an air filter in the workshop and keep it running all the time the MDF is being worked.

Cheers

Tim


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## Newbie_Neil (7 Dec 2004)

Hi all

This link has been posted previously, but I think it is worthwhile posting it again. It is a guide to mdf by KeithS: -

http://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=DiyC;action=display;num=1083395215

Cheers
Neil


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## Gill (7 Dec 2004)

MDF is ideal for the scrollsaw work that I do, especially since cheap, thin boards of decent grade ply are so hard to find. Come to that, any decent quality timber's hard to come by round here.

It's just so practical, adaptable and predictable. There are no problems with stability and once it's painted up it looks as good as your artistic skills will allow.

I know this is a woodworking forum but it would be nice to find a little acceptance for those of us who use woodworking techniques but don't have recourse to wood. I wonder how many budding woodworkers are put off by forums such as this simply because they don't work in the approved medium. It must be so discouraging to browse a forum and come the conclusion that your proud creation will probably be sneered upon because it doesn't conform to the tradional techniques. I suspect that many younger people will develop a love of woodwork through their experience of handling man-made boards. If 'proper' woodworkers don't give such folk encouragement and recognise the validity of their work, the next generation of woodworkers might be killed off altogether.

I found it terrifically heartening to see so many of you praise the wonderful MDF creation that was on the earlier pages. It shows that MDF does have a place in our workshops and it's about time that products made out of it were given the respect they deserved.

Now, it's time to decorate the Christmas tree with my scrollsaw-cut MDF ornaments...

Gill


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## woodshavings (7 Dec 2004)

GillD":39e6rfr4 said:


> Now, it's time to decorate the Christmas tree with my scrollsaw-cut MDF ornaments...
> 
> Gill



Hi Gill - it would be good if you could post some pics of your tree ornaments - I'm looking for some inspiration !!

Cheers John


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## dedee (7 Dec 2004)

Horses for courses.

If it's good enough to be featured in FWW (no 170, June 2004, ) then it's good enough for me.

Andy


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## tim (7 Dec 2004)

Andy,

Love your avatar - is it something you made? If so is there any chance you could send me plans? You may just be able to get me out of a 'its how many days to christmas' baby godson shocker!! :shock: :lol: 

Cheers

Tim


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## Gill (7 Dec 2004)

Hi John

I'd love to post some but there are two problems:

1. No camera
2. No photography skills

My decorations are mostly straight lifts from Christmas cards that I've been sent, although a few come from supermarket magazines and kiddies comics  . I've even made some from proper patterns by Patrick Spielman! There's inspiration all around us. 

Yours :deer 

Gill


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## dedee (7 Dec 2004)

Tim,
The plans came from a library book. I should have some photo copies at home. Drop me a PM with an address and I'll try and find them tonight.

Andy


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## houtslager (7 Dec 2004)

8) wow , a lot of serious points put in here on the humble material known colloqiualy as dustmaker here in our workshop.
For people in the business of trying to earn a LIVING in woodworking, imho have *NO CHOICE*. Also, one must try to think of the forests we in the WEST are responaable for denuding due to our rapacious of wanting our furniture and fittings for our homes to look good - ie meranti / teak / afromosia..etc are now on some endangered lists due to the deforestation.
The use of manufactured wood products reuses waste materials and some virgin material to make these sheet materials. IT DOES HELP to reduce the world's deforestation.
As a woodworker, I find the material PDG* and for most of the furniture I am asked to make by clients on a tight budget it is the ONLY material I can use. Ok, we are lucky in our workshop to have a WALL SAW  so cutting sheet material is no problem well that is until I needed to use  38mm board - man is that HEAVY ! 
So to round up like others have said - its horses for courses :? 
It even looks pdg* when coated in a Clear varnish :twisted: 

all the best from HS in a sunny & warm Florida :twisted:

ps pdg* = pretty damn good


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## Chris Knight (7 Dec 2004)

HS, 

You had better change your profile if you are now in Florida, it still says Amsterdam. 

Anyway, enough of the hints. What are you doing, for whom, where and why etc etc? 

Are you now an American, a green card holder or what. Enquiring minds want to know.


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## Frank D. (7 Dec 2004)

Hi everyone,
A very interesting discussion here! I sworw off MDF for two reasons: the toxic dust (it is much more toxic than wood dust--I try not to use toxic finishes so why would I use toxic materials?) and the waste management problem it poses: formaldehyde is very bad for the environment, no comparison with wood. It might save some trees but trees are a renewable resource when managed properly, and MDF leads to the consumption of much more chemicals (the synthetic resins and glues). 
This said, those who like or need to use it, more power to them!
FWIW,
Frank


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## Midnight (8 Dec 2004)

Woah... tons of issues to address... still, it's good to see something like this _can_ be addressed without pyrotechnics... 

<guessin I'll need to roll the sleeves up for this post.....

Now then...

*Tim Wrote*


> Can't help but think that the flat pack kitchen units you refer to are chipboard and not MDF.



Exactly right Tim. I recognize it might not have been the best example to use, but at that time of night it was the best example of a stressed skin I could think of. From the descriptions I've read of both chipboard and MDF, they behave very similarly when used as structural material, in that they both need as much help as they can get...

re market dynamics....

doing this as a pass-time, I fully recognize that the absence of pressure to make a living from my craft enables me to take a seemingly "high brow" attitude; I hope that's _*not*_ the impression that my posts put over... I fully recognize that "in the real world" things are a whole lot more complex, and compromises need to be made; it's not the first time I've had to patch an ROV together with offcuts from the wire-room floor... 
But that said, it's not the first time that I've been forced to use 3rd rate material in spite of raising valid objections to it. Those materials force compromises that end up making the job take longer, pushing the costs beyond the savings they made by using the rubbish materials in the first place... 

When it comes to finishing, I'll fess up to being bone idol... having tried the varnish route, and had it come back to haunt me later, these days I stick to easy to use, easy to clean, easy to repair finishes; sand in some oil, wipe on some wax, give it some elbow grease and call it done.... So far I've been fortunate in that every time I've done that, it's worked out fine... For me, the important part is that the finish lets the character in the wood speak for itself; there's plenty I can do to spoil it... very little that will improve it... I know when to leave well alone.....

*Gill wrote...*



> I wonder how many budding woodworkers are put off by forums such as this simply because they don't work in the approved medium. It must be so discouraging to browse a forum and come the conclusion that your proud creation will probably be sneered upon because it doesn't conform to the tradional techniques. I suspect that many younger people will develop a love of woodwork through their experience of handling man-made boards. If 'proper' woodworkers don't give such folk encouragement and recognise the validity of their work, the next generation of woodworkers might be killed off altogether.



I get the feeling that I (among others here) am getting a lecture.  Gill... I can see your point, strange though it may seem, however I prefer to think (correct me if I'm wrong) that your point doesn't carry much weight.. The fact that I'm here, building the projects I choose, using materials I prefer to use is proof of that...
My very first project needed 10 sheets of the cheapest, nastiest 18mm ply that my meagre budget could afford; the spec was to build 2 massive and one tiny corner units, a book case, and almost 100 linear feet of shelving; dust collectors, for the placement of. To assist/encourage me to get off my backside and build it I was given a router for my b/day. I'd no previous experience of building anything like it, no books, no assistance, no other tools, no workshop to build the stuff in, no clue that online forums existed, and my only guide re how to get it done was years of watching Norm.... Somehow, I managed to get the lot done using just simple joints, rebates, dado's and mitred butt joints. The edges were dressed up using off the shelf lengths of hardwood, everything was sanded with a tiny detail sander (took forever and killed my first shop vac) and left me thoroughly disappointed with the outcome (although SWMBO still sings its praises). I knew I could do better, so I bought a pair of elm boards; both of them rough cut, waney edged and roughly milled to thickness at the saw mill. Just using the table saw, I managed to make 5 small raised panel doors; I didn't know it at the time, but I'd used bridle joints to make the door frames, and making them was my introduction to violent kickback. The last piece was just about big enough to make a drawer front, and it was the grain in that piece that sold me on the idea that *this* was what I wanted to do... and *this* was what I wanted to work with; locally grown, locally managed, locally milled hardwoods...
4 years on I've yet to regret that decision. 
Part-way through that first project I stumbled onto the FWW web site; my education in how things should be done began there... helped no end through the Knots forum... since then, I found the UKW forum, furthering my education in the process... 
I'd say that contrary to being put off, seeing examples of how things *can* be done has served to fuel my determination to improve, my tools, techniques and knowledge...


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## tim (8 Dec 2004)

Mike,

I think we started pretty much the same way. I decided that it couldn't be that hard to make a kitchen when we moved into our house - met a guy who worked for a timber yard at a party.... Next thing I know I've got 24 sheets of maple veneered MDF and about 1000 feet of maple in the drive, one crappy circular saw, two B&D workmates and a dreadful 1/4 in router (I didn't know about shop vacs then). Built it - looks good five years later - in fact I stll show it to potential customers as an example of my work but at the same time realised I'd also love to work more with 'real' wood where poss. 

Its taken me 4 years to find locally grown and managed hardwoods but I've now got a great source but at the same time recognise that on some jobs I have to tailor the materials to suit budgets - hence the defence of MDF... but...

I don't know if you saw the little maple and walnut table I put up a couple of weeks ago - well it was for a wedding present. My wife wondered what I would want to charge for it if i was going to sell it - I told her and she went pale. Anyway, it got delivered tonight and the couple have asked for another one to make a pair and without any prompting offered a price about 20% up on what I would have wanted if it was a paying job  . So its swings and roundabouts but still a great big playground.

I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.

Cheers

T


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## johnelliott (8 Dec 2004)

tim":3uatx071 said:


> I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.



Can't say fairer than that
John


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## Anonymous (8 Dec 2004)

johnelliott":pq6osb4z said:


> tim":pq6osb4z said:
> 
> 
> > I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.
> ...



Seconded!!!


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## Newbie_Neil (8 Dec 2004)

Tony":e7cdbc93 said:


> johnelliott":e7cdbc93 said:
> 
> 
> > tim":e7cdbc93 said:
> ...



Thirded. :wink: 

Cheers
Neil


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## houtslager (8 Dec 2004)

[/quote] think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job

well said that man!


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## Midnight (8 Dec 2004)

*Tim Wrote...*


> I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.



Sorted.!!!

:wink:


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## Shady (10 Dec 2004)

Just for info, folks, ignoring the subjective aspects:

a) The Carcinogenic risk from the mdf dust: this equates to that from softwood - you are at more risk of cancer from any hardwood dust you produce than from MDF.

b) The Urea Formaldehyde gas given off. With current MDF on sale, "MDF contains a very low level of formaldehyde (a naturally occurring chemical present in most timber and timber products). The amount emitted from the board is tiny and not harmful. It is well within the World Health Organisation guideline for the amount of formaldehyde from all sources that may be present in ambient air (inside homes or outside) of 0.1mg/cu m (equivalent to 0.08 parts per million) and begins to reduce as soon as the board has been produced. It is well controlled by companies' compliance with the new European fibreboard standard (EN 622-1)."

"The amount of any formaldehyde emitted from MDF is tiny. It is certainly well below the World Health Organisation’s guideline figure for the amount of formaldehyde that may be emitted from all product sources and that may be present in ambient air—inside homes or outside—of 0.1 mg/cubic metre (equivalent to 0.08 parts per million). The UK’s Building Research Establishment has tested the air in typical British homes and found it to contain about one-quarter of the above level from all sources. The estimated amount contributed by MDF sources is reckoned to be less than one-fifth of the WHO guideline maximum."

"In respect of DIY exposure, the Medical Research Council’s Institute for Environment and Health is on record as saying “Looking at the domestic situation, available evidence suggests that DIY exposure to wood dust (through cutting, sawing, sanding, etc) is unlikely to pose any measurable health risk”, and added that “While MDF (because of its composition) is likely to produce more fine dust than solid wood for the same operations, it is – as with wood – considered unlikely to pose any significant hazard”.

What all this suggests is that, just like any other wood based product, you don't want to go snifing up the dust like some sort of mad cocaine junky - and of course, MDF produces a lot of very fine dust, so all the usual precautions are required. That said, the formaldehyde issue (setting aside the issues involved in manufacture) is probably a red herring. There are many other sources, and even taking them all into account, unless you turn your home into a hermetically sealed 'MDF based nuclear fall out shelter', we are, by and large, still below the WHO recommended limits. Put it this way: Alf is at far greater risk from all that radon that the granite is chucking out down her way than from any MDF dust.

I'm not an apologist or spokesman, and recognise that the exposure should be minimised wherever possible - but hard wood dust is a greater health hazard - so if you're not gonna work with MDF for health, as opposed to aesthetic, reasons, please let me know when I can come and take all your waste hardwood stocks off you... :wink:


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## Alf (10 Dec 2004)

Shady":mwyhmxl4 said:


> a) The Carcinogenic risk from the mdf dust: this equates to that from softwood - you are at more risk of cancer from any hardwood dust you produce than from MDF.


I have a theory- don't groan. My theory is that MDF produces _more_ fine dust than ply or "real" wood, so while the dust _per se_ is no worse than any other, the _quantities_ you're exposed to are considerably more. Does that seem reasonable? 



Shady":mwyhmxl4 said:


> Put it this way: Alf is at far greater risk from all that radon that the granite is chucking out down her way than from any MDF dust.


You're telling me. We live *in* a granite house, *on* granite, *surrounded by* granite quarries; currently we await the results of a Radon test we did over the summer. The first one we did quite a few years back, while the house was unoccupied (so we hope the lack of air flow was a huge contributing factor), wasn't good at all...






Cheers, Alf


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## houtslager (10 Dec 2004)

sorry for my lack of knowledge  - what is RADON and why is it dangerous ?


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## Midnight (10 Dec 2004)

Radon's a radioactive gas... naturally present in rock like granite...

<in the same pickle as Alf...


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## Shady (10 Dec 2004)

Alf: I suspect you are entirely correct - per 'unit volume', MDF will produce more dust, because of it's construction. However, with proper filters/dust masks and collecters, this should be no more of an issue than any other dust.

My point is simply that the formaldehyde scare is probably a red herring, in that its contribution as a health hazard is so small as to equate to worrying about our increased risk of death by lightning strike because we hold metal tools when woodworking... This sort of reasoning leads to living to be 100, but in a padded cell on a drip of sterile sugar solution - and who wants 100 years of that??


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## Noel (10 Dec 2004)

Alf, Mike, did you have those little yellow sensor things? Advised to leave them on top of a wardrobe for a month or so and then send them back?
We had them a few years ago, and of course forgot where they came from......Nearest rock is "our" mountain, on the avatar, but it might be basalt as opposed to granite.

Noel


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## Midnight (10 Dec 2004)

never seen that Noely... around here, it'd cost to much... Aberdeen's called the Granite City for a reason..

Was kicked back a while ago by City Archetects dept when I enquired if I could insulate the external walls... damn houses leak heat faster than a politician leaks secrets... was told we need to maintain the wall cavity to provide proper ventilation... the only way to disperse the gas....


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## Anonymous (11 Dec 2004)

Hi chaps
Been off line for 9 months and trying to catch up on all the postings first topic thats caught my eye is this one on MDF, very interesting. I picked up 15 18mm sheets from the new B&Q here in Dublin at 16 euros a sheet to make 2 wardrobes and 2 bookcases starting tomorrow for a client that wants to paint them herself. The clients i get that are 35 upwards like wood to look like wood but the younger ones prefer a paint finish. Is this a reversal in trends? Or is it because they hear my london accent and say he sounds like a cheap B we will get it done in MDF till we have the money for a real chippy  
Anyway its good to be back on line 
Cheers Steve


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## Newbie_Neil (11 Dec 2004)

Hi Steve

Welcome back to the forum.

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (11 Dec 2004)

Noely":23s0bdoo said:


> Alf, Mike, did you have those little yellow sensor things?


Yep



Noely":23s0bdoo said:


> Advised to leave them on top of a wardrobe for a month or so and then send them back?


Yep



Noely":23s0bdoo said:


> We had them a few years ago, and of course forgot where they came from......


National Radon Protection Board in all likelihood. Bit late now though...





Cheers, Alf


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## cambournepete (13 Dec 2004)

I cut up and routed some oak-veneered MDF for some bookshelves for the kitchen last friday, and as the garage doors were open back and front I din't use dust extraction or a mask - although the air filter was on. I didn't feel right on saturday or sunday - very bunged up. Next time I'll wear a proper mask and use extraction. Anyone got a recommendation for good quality masks - I' can't afford a full mask/shield like the trend airshield, but the airace is a possibility...

Pete


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## tim (13 Dec 2004)

Pete,

I use MDF a lot and I find the Airace to be really good. The filters last a long time and its light plus because of the exhaust valve it doesn't get too hot. 

I've been reading the posts about people feeling groggy, bunged up etc and thinking that I must be lucky but maybe its the mask. I always use extraction and an air filter which I usually let run on for at least 2 hours after I leave the workshop. 

Hope this helps

T


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## johnelliott (13 Dec 2004)

The Trend Airace is the one to go for. It does interfere with your downward vision, though, so don't leave anything trip-overable on the floor.
The main thing about the airace is the huge filter area, it means it is much easier to suck air through, and therefore more pleasant to wear than cartridge masks
John


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## frank (13 Dec 2004)

yes the airace is the one ,frank with visions of john tripping over the t/saw bench ect :lol: :lol:


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## Gill (14 Dec 2004)

Midnight":2hb87jak said:


> I get the feeling that I... am getting a lecture.



Lectures are free, but you should be warned that I charge for psychoanalysis  .

Gill


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## cambournepete (14 Dec 2004)

johnelliott":3a4oajtr said:


> The Trend Airace is the one to go for.



Thanks John



johnelliott":3a4oajtr said:


> It does interfere with your downward vision, though, so don't leave anything trip-overable on the floor.



I knew there'd be a catch - sometimes I think my floor is just one trip hazard! :shock: :wink:

Pete


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## Vormulac (14 Dec 2004)

The AirAce is superb, no airborne nastiness gets through it *and* you get to look a bit like Darth Vader into the bargain. What more could you want?
 

V.


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## Newbie_Neil (14 Dec 2004)

Hi V



Vormulac":1fiitld3 said:


> .... *and* you get to look a bit like Darth Vader into the bargain. _*What more could you want*_?



What about one of these? :wink: 

http://www.empireswords.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=334

Cheers
Neil


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## ike (14 Dec 2004)

> you get to look a bit like Darth Vader



That'll be a "Galactic Wood Emperor" then?
:lol: :lol: :lol: ...that's still tickling me! :roll:


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## Chris Knight (14 Dec 2004)

Neil,

Do you have any idea how hard it is to sharpen those darn things?


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## Newbie_Neil (14 Dec 2004)

Hi Chris



waterhead37":32fy30fk said:


> Neil, Do you have any idea how hard it is to sharpen those darn things?



What else do you think I use the Jet 60A for? :roll: 

Cheers
Neil


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## Vormulac (14 Dec 2004)

Newbie_Neil":22vdbmxj said:


> Hi V
> 
> What about one of these? :wink:
> 
> ...



Sweeeeeet..... 8) 

V.


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## Alf (14 Dec 2004)

waterhead37":3ak3b6pg said:


> Do you have any idea how hard it is to sharpen those darn things?


Bloomin' thing can't be sharp - you can see light along the edge...


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## Dewy (14 Dec 2004)

What the hell is wrong with MDF ?

Nothing at all.
It's good for !! and !! also !! plus of course !!
And it's very good for !!
I'm sure something will come to be in 20 years or so when I am in my MDF box with no need of formaldehyde in my veins because the box has enough for both of us.

I will admit to using it for making router jigs because it can be cut and filed clean.

History shows us what is happening with MDF.
Birch ply was the normal ply in the 50s-60s then along came cheaper eastern sourced ply that became the norm and caused birch ply to increase in price.
Next came melamine coated chipboard which soon replaced ply in 'whitewood' furniture.
This could be easily coated so it looked as if there were mouldings where needed.
Now there is MDF replacing it because it finishes smooth so can be either coated or painted.
Health risks from MDF?
I suppose doctors will need something to do when medicine advances put a stop to the diseases that have been the scourge of mankind for centuries.
I wonder what they will foist on us next because it can be made a lot cheaper?


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## cambournepete (20 Dec 2004)

I bought the airace from Mackays in Cambridge for £24.95 on Saturday (I just can't justify buying the airshield or powercap yet) and wore it for most of the day yesterday in the garage. It's reasonably comfortable, although the bridge of my nose got a bit sore (and still is), and there's a slight leak under my right eye (but that's the odd shape of my face ).

One thing I found was that there was a lot of condensation that almost poured out of it when I took it off to swill a mug of cool coffee - is this normal, and what do people do to clean the filter? Currently it's sat in a large plastic box in the garage, hiding from the dust...

Cheers,

Pete


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## Vormulac (20 Dec 2004)

Good point about the condensation, I found that too after prolonged use, can't say I ended up with a sore schnozz though. Must be my cute little button nose...

Yeah right! :lol: 

Normally I just put it straight back in the box when I'm done and give it a cursory blow when I take it back out to keep it relatively free from dust in my low-tech workshop environment. I have no idea how long before changing filters; I guess when you notice impeded airflow and take it apart to junk the pad, run the whole thing under the tap?

V.


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## smiffy (20 Dec 2004)

I use a pretty good quality mask from 3M. I think they are around £40(I got mine from a car boot sale for £5) and has a breath out valve. If I am wearing it all day, I will probably tip out the collected water in the mask about 4 times.
Also, everybody knows I have been wearing it for about 6 hours afterwards as it leaves an ugly mark around the bridge of my nose and the mask shaped dark mark around the rest of my face.
Although it seems to be a very good mask, I still blow out very fine MDF dust for a day afterwards, which is a bit worrying.

I think that these battery powered full face masks from Triton, e.t.c are probably an essential when working with MDF. Even at around £150.

Merry Christmas,
Raymond.


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## Vormulac (20 Dec 2004)

Smiffy, I don't know if it's a common feature to masks of around that price range, but the Airace pads are electrostatically charged, supposedly to grab the ultrafine stuff that you seem to be having trouble with. I have to admit, I've not used any MDF since procuring my Airace, but I certainly have not noticed anything at all getting through it - not even ultrafine plaster dust.

V.


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## tim (20 Dec 2004)

I sadly use MDF a lot and I don't notice any dust coming through on the Airace - nor does any seem to collect in the bit around the face. I change the filter normally at the end of each job or every 10 full size sheets or so.

T


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## Philly (20 Dec 2004)

Hi Folks
I've been building a bed out of mdf (no, not including the matress :roll: )
The darn stuff leaves its fine dust everywhere-even worse than some of the exotics I use. Spent 20 minutes vaccuuming all accessible surfaces, and efore you know it youre back to square one. And yes, dust extractors were used at all times, as well as my Microclene air cleaner running constantly. 'Orrible stuff, the dust.
Biscuit jointer and a sheet of mdf-you can make pretty much anything quickly with those two.
looking foward to getting back to the solid though,
Philly :ho2


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## cambournepete (20 Dec 2004)

smiffy":1u9jjm6p said:


> I think that these battery powered full face masks from Triton, e.t.c are probably an essential when working with MDF. Even at around £150.



I spoke to the Triton bods last week and they said they don't sell the Triton mask as it fails UK standards - apparently the test changed from 20 minutes to an hour in extreme conditions and the Triton stopped after 40 minutes... Still probably perfrectly OK for DIY use though, just can't buy it in the UK.

I'll probably buy a full powered respiator sometime, but at the moment £150 is just too much...


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## Keith Smith (20 Dec 2004)

It is a very good idea for everyone to make something from MDF occasionally anyway. 

Alf ...gets up off the floor, still shaken by the thought :wink: 

If you use MDF with your extraction on and after there is a lot of dust about , then it is time to tune up the dust extraction system. Unless it is catching the very fine dust it is worthless and this will show up the problems.


Apologies to all

Keith


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## Anonymous (21 Dec 2004)

I am approaching the completion of our new family bathroom (which is taking far too long as I'm away all week consulting and only have the weekends to work on it  ). New white suite, chrome fittings including the towel warmer etc., cherry cabinetry (I've got quite a stock of those boards!) and so on. Last weekend's job was to put in the counter-top with cut-out for the semi-recessed sink. Problem is we're using grey granite. Not one piece (far too heavy) but blocks. Of course they're too big and all had to be cut -- out with the diamond blade ($75 in the US 8) ) onto the tablesaw. The saw made short work of the cuts, but the amount of dust was incredible! When I took off the glasses and mask I had a lovely pinkish area within the grey-white boundary on the rest of my face.

Problem -- the rubber seal around my facemask is getting a little old now and I could see a trail of dust leading from each side of the nose along the crease towards the mouth. The lines stopped at the 'tache -- my own built-in filter perhaps? :!: 

Incidentally, wall tiles produce not quite as much dust -- I don't have a cutter, so the saw was put to use again, plus the tiles are really thick porcelain anyway... Lazy!

I didn't use any MDF - just veneered blockboard for the cabinet linings. Everything else is solid cherry face frames and cherry ply with solid surrounds (bathtap and shower diverter mount, toilet and bath panels, cabinet doors). Can't find the right hinges for the doors, so they're not mounted yet...


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