# Hand-cut looking machine-made



## Alf (18 Jul 2006)

I've been thinking - no, don't run away yet! Anyway, I've been thinking about dovetails and particularly dovetail housings. Possibly prompted by a bit of joinery I saw up in Kent earlier this month (scroll down a bit here). You often hear folks taking about London pattern and other fine-pin dovetails "showing it's hand cut", but no-one as far as I know mentions dovetail housings. 

A brief and unscientific flick through some of my books shows a pretty consistant showing of dovetail housings with only _one_ angled side. Now to me that makes a lot of sense; they're hand cut, it's a lot trickier to fine tune a joint with two sloping sides and so forth. Presumably it's more than adequate for the task too? But these days, when the likes of Derek and Jake come up with astoundingly fine examples of hand cut sliding dovetails, they're apparently universally sloped on both sides.

So a few questions, musings, call them what you will.

1. Is there any structural advantage to having a "full" sliding dovetail over a "half", and if yes, is it actually _needed_? 

2. Have we fallen once more into the pit of trying to make hand tool-made stuff look machine-made? Be interested to hear from Jake and Derek if they even gave it a thought. Of course it may be that folks actually prefer the looks of the full dovetail?

3. Should dovetail housings also be done the old-fashioned, a-machine-can't-do-that-way in order to claim "bragging rights"? Discuss. 

4. Any other joints skulling about that have been re-thought to make it easy for machinery that we should be reclaiming for hand tools? The stopped groove has always struck as something that's very much a machine task that hand toolers try desperately to replicate instead of going back to the fundamentals, but that's a bit of a different case.

Anyway, I toss out these ramblings just to prove hand tool use doesn't mean you're purely tool fixated. Just about 99.9%... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Chris Knight (18 Jul 2006)

Alf,
A sort of quarter answer - to your point 1.

I think a full dovetail will resist racking better when assembling a piece and since I use sliding dovetails to hold some carcases together before they are glued (eg bookshelves) making it easier for one pair of hands to do the assembly, this is an issue for me. I must say I have never tried a single sided dovetail in place of the full job so can't say for sure.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (18 Jul 2006)

> Is there any structural advantage to having a "full" sliding dovetail over a "half", and if yes, is it actually needed?



Hi Alf

The only reason I cut double-sided sliding dovetails is because the symetry looks nicer. I see no reason why these should not be asymetrical. Certainly, they would be quicker and easier to cut this way.

Here is the housing sequence:









> Any other joints skulling about that have been re-thought to make it easy for machinery that we should be reclaiming for hand tools? The stopped groove has always struck as something that's very much a machine task that hand toolers try desperately to replicate instead of going back to the fundamentals, but that's a bit of a different case.



Stopped grooves, as in drawer grooves for through dovetails, are fairly straight forward with a chisel and a router plane. In fact, I find these easier and quicker to do this way than with a 'tailed router.






Any other joints that are supposedly difficult to do with hand tools?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (18 Jul 2006)

I was starting to worry that I represented that 0.01% of non-tool obsessive neander, which would be a concern indeed... :lol: 

Derek, I think you miss my point, primarily 'cos I didn't make it! #-o Yes, you can make a stopped groove with hand tools - but as you demonstrate, it's a multi-step job. Most (all?) common tasks seem to have dedicated tools for the job, developed to speed up the process. Where are the bullnose ploughs to solve this? Rare beasts indeed. Stopped grooves are barely mentioned at all until fairly recently, iirc, but I haven't honestly looked. Why aren't we doing what used to be done? Mitred corners, applied mouldings? Well maybe forget mouldings 'cos a lot of their absence is simply down to the preferred style of work these days, so fair enough. But I conjecture that we're busy making them stopped 'cos that what machines have taught us. It's easier to do that than do mitred corners on a dovetail joint with a router, after all. It's right up there with cutting finger/box joints by hand, I reckon.  

But another thing has caught my eye - why d'you want a stopped groove in a drawer side anyway? No, put that another way. I have no objection to you doing it (big of me, eh? :roll: ) but thinking about traditional drawer making, they simply didn't have the need 'cos they didn't do it that way. But with a router you can, so it gets into the psyche as a thing to do and we end up trying to do it with the wrong tools (so to speak). Which is kinda what I suppose I'm partially driving at. I know - very badly...

But really I'm just bored out of my skull, it's like an oven in the workshop and there's zip all going on in the various fora, so I thought I'd try and get some discussion going. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (18 Jul 2006)

Interesting stuff Alf (and nice links)

1. I would say yes to structural advantage if there is a varying load, e.g. drawers (both shoulders tight against other piece). No if the construction is a frame etc. where the DT is in the upper portion and the force is downwards thus keeping the lower part of the joint in place and the upper under tension against the slope of the cut.



> Have we fallen once more into the pit of trying to make hand tool-made stuff look machine-made?



2. I really, really, really, really hope not :shock: 
I prefer the look of full DTs (especially Houndstooth  ) and I guess most of us do.

3. I guess bragging rights are all one gets for hand-cut these days. Well, that and the satisfaction of craftmanship and the creation of something beautiful that few can emulate. Making machine made joints often leaves me cold.

4. My lovely #45 is the main tool of choice for slots in drawer sides these days but the router does the rest :wink: 

Long live the neanderthal :lol:


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## engineer one (18 Jul 2006)

i was going to post a new topic, but this actually gives me a chance to 
admit to my failings as woodworker, and bring my view on these things.

my saga is that i am building these things into an alcove. 
two display/bookcase units, plus a shelf for my computer, and then 
underneath mobile storage to allow more effective cleaning.

i am using the veneered mdf jason let me have, and all that talk about
face frames which i will build in a slightly different way, mainly due to my
not having built them before.

anyway i have easily made and stuck the bookcases/display units up, not yet framed round them. and thinking carefully, i have decided that
the working surface for the computer will be mounted on top of some 3x2's which are to line the alcove. mean and dirty, but effective.

i am taking my time, not just because of the heat, but also 
pacing my self to not strain the old ticker. spent some time over the
weekend making half lapped joints at the corners of the alcove 
supports.

that's when it hit me, as others have said, half lap joints in thick
section if you don't practice are difficult to get right. also making 
sure you cut the right bits in the right order.

i don't hand saw enough, where do you at a certain age, get the time
and the experience to hand saw. but thought not to do it on the
table saw, did not want to remove the guard again. 

did what has been suggested elsewhere, cut under the lines and trimmed back, but found it difficult to cut back straight and level. found i had
to rehone my planes and be careful with the chisels. (by the by alf,
have got a new norton red and black stone, on a special, find it
useful to finish the edge????  )

anyway i think that some of the "simple" joints that we take for 
granted are in fact more difficult to produce with hand tools
unless you have a real lot of practice, and we might well think to
produce them more effectively with machines. :? 

as i have said before, i did woodwork at school, but back then it seemed
pretty easy, and i spent more time and effort on my metalworking 
skills, racing bikes etc. now years later, i want to use a combination
of hand tools and machines, but lack the practice to cut and 
chisel properly. the problem is we all want to produce things in 
a hurry.  

there is this strange dichotomy where you have to make a 
bench to allow yourself to make the cabinets which look pretty 
and are well made. but you are scared to let anyone to see the
bench in case they mentioned the joints.

i think you are right alf, we have short circuited the old ways
because the machines take the thought out of the process.
derek in oz is right it is still possible, but we are always looking
for the quicker way out.

anyway, back to my old bits of pallet, i must practice hand sawing
and trenching again .

paul :wink: 
but


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## Paul Chapman (18 Jul 2006)

Alf":21sgqgwx said:


> Why aren't we doing what used to be done?



I guess there are two reasons:

1. Woodworking is no longer taught in schools, so if someone like your Dad doesn't teach you, you don't know how to do the basic stuff, and

2. If and when you do attempt to make things yourself out of wood, the tendency these days is to start off with man-made boards for which hand tools are seldom suitable.

By the time you get into hand tools and realise how good working with proper wood and hand tools can be, a lot of the power tool methods are well-entrenched.

But on the other hand, that might not be the reason at all..... :roll: 

Good questions though, Alf, so some good has come out of the hot weather (as I watch my lawn getting browner and browner 'cos I can't use my hose  )

Paul


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2006)

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## Alf (19 Jul 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":chkcin92 said:


> ...far better to plant on a grooved piece in the trad way (does it have a name?)


Drawer slips?



Mr_Grimsdale":chkcin92 said:


> Also I always amazed when people talk of fine woodwork and MDF in the same breath - I think they should be taken out and publicly dove-tailed!


Ooo painful. Although, thinking about it, despite my utter hatred of MDF, it does make excellent substrate for veneering - and that can encompass some of the finest woodwork imaginable. Mind you, cometimes it can look awful too. :lol: 

I'll have to come back to this when i'm not hunting windows of opportunity between connection drop off.  I hate living out in the middle of nowhere. :evil: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Taffy Turner (19 Jul 2006)

This is a fascinating topic, and one which I think is going to run and run. 

Speaking for myself, I enjoyed woodwork at school, but was persuaded away from it to more "intellectual" subjects, which I have bitterly regretted ever since. 

I started turning some 4 or 5 years ago, and really enjoy it - it was almost a spiritual experience - it was as if I had found something that I had been looking for all my life on a subconscious level. Probably something to do with an innate need to be creative I guess. 

My interest was broadened into more general woodworking / furniture making mainly as a result of being inspired by watching Norm (I suspect that I am not alone in this). Sadly, this means that my methods of working tend to be Norm related, mainly as that is the only way of doing things that I have seen. Fortunately this forum has removed my blinkers so to speak, and broadened my knowledge base considerably, but I still feel depressed sometimes by how little I know, but I do find the learning process most enjoyable. 

I guess the point that I am trying to make, is that many of us use the methods of working that we do as a result of a "monkey see, monkey do" mentality. 

I also believe that another issue is that a lot of power tool manufacturers spend a lot of money on marketing their machines and methods, whereas this tends not to be the case with hand tool manufacturers, who, I suspect, feel that they are selling into a more specialised niche market. I think that being exposed to this constant stream of machine tool manufacturing methods is bound to colour our judgement, as we subconsciously absorb a lot of this information without realising it. 

Of course - I could just be talking through my hat!!!  

Regards 

Gary


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## dedee (19 Jul 2006)

Are we in danger of being dragged down the nostalgia slope?

One has to ask of course if modern machines, methods and materials had been around x years ago would the great furniture makers have used them or ignored them?

Is the box/finger/comb joint an example of one that was rarely made by hand but has become easy with power tools? The mechanics of the dovetail mean that even if poorly made it can still be quite strong but the finger joint would be useless unless tight fitting.

Andy


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## engineer one (19 Jul 2006)

i think it is very easy to think that all that is old is better, but,
as we know, the egyptians invented plywood, and chppendale,
and other makers used it. also older makers, due to time
constraints as well as costs, used the cheapest wood where it
could not be seen.

i think it is a mistake to complain about people using mdf, maybe where
they use it is open to question, but as alf says it is a suitable strata
for veneer, and more importantly no one used to complain about
the large scale usage of plywood. the fact is you can't get it at an
economical rate any more, nor with decent facings on both sides.

even dc remarks that for wide pieces, it is almost impossible to ensure
that "wood" will stay stable across the widths that have been glued
together. 

i know about topping and tailing etc, but what about expansion. again 
i know that you can take some precautions against it, but if you are painting furniture for instance, why not use mdf?? 

what many have to remember is that you have to start somewhere,
and many people get back into woodworking after starting with 
bits of mdf from the sheds. what is wrong with that????

i do agree that machine tool manufacturers do market better, 
but they have researched ways of using their machines more
effectively. maybe the methods are wrong, but it is thinking 
outside the box that enables us to combine the pleasures of
hand tool usage, with the benefits of maybe limited machinery 
usage.

i think that some of the "advances" promoted by makers
are the result of using modern materials and not necessarily giving
enough thought to the adaptation needed for "wood".

interesting thought, with a rat,"sorry" you have to have sliding 
dovetails with the dovetail on both sides, unless it is wider than 
the thinnest cutter.

i am not sure that all the older methods of manufacture are as correct
as we would like to think, i am sure that colin c would confirm that
there are certain things which re-occur with certain design influences
on antique or older furniture he restores.

what is certain is that it is difficult with safety, to get certain machines
to stop in the middle of a panel, you may have to remove guards,
work without riving knives etc. however hand tools can basically 
start and end where you want. yes i know there are limits, but the
principle is right.

the use of new sheet materials is not necessarily wrong, if you
clothe it properly, in the same way that using machine designed
joints made by hand tools is not wrong, it is just the 
appropriate use of both that is right.

just enjoy what you can make, and the fact that you can make it.

paul :wink: 
oh yes, but alf didn't you chose to live in the sticks  :?


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2006)

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## Adam (19 Jul 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1jw1gor5 said:


> Not complaining - just being rude about it! I confess to using a piece now and then but usually when I've rescued it from a skip. I agree about enjoying it etc. You should do just what you want and just ignore opinions if you don't agree with them.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



Funny, I think I've decided veneer onto MDF is not for me. Its often as not "too flat". I mean it looks artificial its so perfect. Not a flaw, a catch, a whisper of light reflected at an unusual angle from it. For me I think its so without soul, it can easily ruin the whole piece.

For jigs and stuff great, for small areas like panels, and small boxes its great - but on large items like tabletops, the whole point is often to have an imposing presence, and its the nice wood that normally achieves that, when its so artifically flat, it just immediately looks false, and, other than the veneer, their is no other aspect you can often see (other than the top of the table without scribbling down underneath). On boxes and smaller stuff, and panels, you are looking at the whole shape, the hinges, the locks, the rest of the doors etc. So having veneers isn't so critical.

Adam

Adam


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## Alf (19 Jul 2006)

engineer one":199gm46q said:



> i think it is very easy to think that all that is old is better


Ah, that and Andy's nostalgia comment are a hole different can o' worms. Feel free to open it up if you like, but it's certainy not what I was trying to suggest. More like "if you're daft enough to do it the old fashioned way, why not do it the whole hog and give yourself a break" 



engineer one":199gm46q said:


> oh yes, but alf didn't you chose to live in the sticks  :?


Er, no actually. I had to go where the roof over my head was going to be. 

Adam, I know exactly what you mean about some veneered stuff.

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (19 Jul 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1l6ailgl said:


> I always amazed when people talk of fine woodwork and MDF in the same breath - I think they should be taken out and publicly dove-tailed!



Some of the finest craftsmen around today regularly use MDF as a substrate for veneering, and I bet the craftsmen of yesteryear would have used it had it been available and given the problems of veneering over solid wood :wink: 

Paul


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2006)

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## Alf (19 Jul 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":smmnq6yx said:


> Information is scarce. "The Old Wheelwright's Shop" is unique. NB That's the only book EVERY woodworker should read.


Get thee The Village Carpenter PDQ, Jacob. You'll like that one too. 



Mr_Grimsdale":smmnq6yx said:


> Also I posted a PS previously, answering Alf's query about single sided dovetails - in case you missed it!


I did. Ahh, interesting thought. It did fleetingly flick through my mind but then I wondered if sliding dovetails are like their through counterparts and have so much "spare" strength that it wouldn't be an issue? 

Cheers, Alf


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## woodbloke (19 Jul 2006)

Paul wrote:



> Some of the finest craftsmen around today regularly use MDF as a substrate for veneering



David Linley's furniture is pretty much all mdf with a thin smear of very expensive veneer over the top; if there's a flat surface that can be veneered, then mdf is the material of first choice.
To throw my hat in the ring - is old better? In my view, no, its just different. Joyce in his books mentions that the Victorians were capable of 'unbelievably shoddy workmanship' whilst at the same time it is generally recognized that the Regency period just prior to it was the golden age of cabinetmaking. 
Today we find that 'materials are uniformly sound' (eg MDF) and so there should be little excuse for poor work, but I suspect the bean counters are still at work so poorly made stuff abounds and will continue to do so, much as it was in the Victorian era.
A glance through recent back issues of F&C will reveal however, that work of superb quality is being produced in greater quantity than ever - Rob


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## Wanlock Dod (19 Jul 2006)

> it is very easy to think that all that is old is better



My view on this (perhaps wrongly) is that there has been something of a Darwinian "survival of the fittest" going on for all of the old stuff. The poorly made stuff has largely fallen by the wayside/gone the way of all flesh, and what we are left with these days is the "better" stuff.

I'm sure that Ye Olde Ikea Shoppe existed (or something a little bit like it), but we just don't know about that stuff because it never stood the test of time.

Just a thought.

Dod :roll:


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## engineer one (19 Jul 2006)

well you do go from one extreme to another.
last week ikea were selling of a solid, well alright
built up beech dining table that they had been selling
for 250 quid, for 49. none of us can buy the wood for 
that price.

but recent conversations with someone looking to get 
pub furniture made in a factory in slovakia, you discover
the reason why so much factory built stuff is tat. 

shipping and storage costs, there are as we know break 
points at which items can be shipped in the uk for the
lowest price. hence the cheap backs.

i think that if you are lucky enough to always deal with the
best of the old furniture then you are lucky, but for most people,
it is a mish mash of good and bad, and why should we continue
promoting bad practice because it is an old practice.

i agree that some old practices are worthwhile saving, but
modern techniques evolve to make it easier and more cost
effective to produce something. if you have the time to slavishly
follow the past more power to your elbow, but that means hand
made screws, and cut nails, and animal glue.

i believe like alf that there are certain things from the machine age
that can be copied and there are others which need to be
avoided if you use hand tools.

we all admire the regency furniture styles, but it was made in general 
in factory situations, made quickly and to a price, so the bits
that were hidden were generally of poorer quality in both 
wood and workmanship. check what things are veneered on to,
you will be amazed by some of the rubbish that was used.

modern living means that many of the old ways do not actually fit into
the modern house, or the need to move more frequently, so we
have to make more use of ckd fittings, and thus machine joints which
allow for this knocking down in an effective way. 

and by machine i hand tools also.

alf sorry if i was a bit out of line about the location, we all make decisions
based on things other than woodwork when it comes to where
we live.  

bet you did not think you would have started such a thread when you made your comments??? :lol: 

final thought how many of those who mention older furniture have looked
hard at some of the painted french furniture which these days seems 
to be very expensive, but of pretty poor quality wood. in addition it is 
easy to forget that the definition of antique allows for only a few
bits in a piece to be old to qualify, but as colin has said are often thrown
together without thought, only in the attempt to make money.

time and experience suggests that you need to combine machine and 
hand tool usage to produce what you want within a reasonable timescale.

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2006)

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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2006)

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## Alf (19 Jul 2006)

engineer one":3ngh8aew said:


> bet you did not think you would have started such a thread when you made your comments??? :lol:


My bread was cast upon the waters to promote discussion - anyone's guess where it was gonna go but odds were it was never going to be where I thought it might. :lol: 

Jacob, yeah there's a four wheel thing in there - that'll be the one. As far as the structural mechanics goes, well I'm out of my depth there but it does seem to be a weak point. What I wonder though, is whether it's a weak point that'll ever be reached or whether it's _technically_ weak but not an issue in practice. Perhaps you've come across actual examples of failure, in which case I withdraw my thoughts unreservedly. 

In one of the old Woodworker's there's a piece about Ye Olde Time Woodworke Shoppe that restored and "manufactured" antiques and what sort of bad habits were employed with regard to nails and such. I'll see if I can locate it 'cos it's quite entertaining.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2006)

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## Paul Chapman (19 Jul 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2zot7uyp said:


> Same tradition as Parnham House



Not sure why you seem to be critical of Parnham House. It seems to me that it turned out some very accomplished craftsmen who are producing some stunning work.

Paul


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## Alf (19 Jul 2006)

Stuck up some hurried scans of the aforementioned articles here. They look potentially a bit small to read but fwiw - I'll do something about it tomorrow if it's a problem. It must have been "Dan" that came to mind, I think.

Jacob, I don't dispute it's a weak point - just is it weak enough to actually be a problem, or is the thing over-strong already so it doesn't arise? Evidentally neither of us knows for sure. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2006)

I'd say structually, there really isn't much difference between half and full. strength wise.

I think half ones don't look as nice. Look unbalanced. Thats just me. And if you found a way cut the angle on one side, might as well do the other :lol: 

I believe if its done by hand, you'll mostly pick it. 

The biggest thing to overcome, is simply I think, the pins are so much easier done with a powered router. Can do it blind folded sort of easy. A rotating cutter is perfect for that sort of cut.  But thats not very romantic.....and noisy and dusty. I don't like powertools at all. 

And a powered router is ideal for stopped housings for shore. Planes just don't like to stop dead like that eh....

My first attempts at cutting them by hand was with a stanley 45 body. 
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=29198

Bit of fun. Turned out to be quite a stable way of doing it actually, due to the high fence. But in hindsight, it would have been a better process if the depth stop could be fine adjusted (like say the stanley 55's depth stop) and if I'd added a angled shoe to it to match the angle of the cut.....ie. so it rubbed flat at the completion of cut. 

but I what I liked about my 45 modification, was that it was quick. Single tool process. No clutter. Just drop the plane, flip the board and do it again, then clean out the muck in between. 

Would be quick enough for me to cut many of these housing cuts all at once on a single board, say for shelves or whatever, cause I could do all the left sides of each housing first, say, flip the board then do all the right sides......


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## Anonymous (19 Jul 2006)

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## Colin C (19 Jul 2006)

There have been some very intresting points in this.

For a start if you think French painted furniture is bad then try some of the old Italian furniture that I have seen and restored :shock:, one chair comes to mind ( a round seated chair ) that when I took the joints apart, they where all different sizes ( from 18mm - 8mm). I mean not even the tennon in one side of a leg to the other was the same.

When it come to antique of all periods you will find some at the top end and some at the bottom, plus all in between.
I mean by this that you will see eg some panels that been veneered on pine that is not very good and some of the same period the have been done on good mahogany ( that would have been used for a piece of furniture in other workshops.

I think part of the think with hand tools v machines is that some have missed the point that they are not all bad ( norm being one the would set up a machine to to do some thing that would be quicker to do by hand but I think this is changing a bit )

I also think ( you can stop laughing at the back :roll: ) that some of the old ways of doing things have been droped just because they are the old ways but if this does happen, then I think when some problems come up people will not have answer but I could wrong.

As for veneering I use MDF myself but if it is antique and will show ( like the Vitorian table top I am remaking as I was given the base), I use what is right for the job.

When it comes to antique furniture as long as it has 10% old wood in it ( yes 10% :shock: ), it can still be called antique.

I think that hand skills are still very important but from work at The British museum and being told that one of the foremans for a firm doing some of the work in the reading room roof, that he wished that he had us instead of the chippys that he had used for some of the work but it was in the roof os no one will see it ( lucky I think ).

I guess I am trying to say that you can use both without forgetting one but some do I think


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## engineer one (19 Jul 2006)

my 2 cents about the sliding dovetail with both sides angled,
in principal, it is weaker at the top of the tail, but i would suggest
that as long as you completely stop the racking of the
bookshelf or cabinet, then the weakness is not too
detrimental.

but then as has been said before the customer/user never
does what you expect, and if there is a weakness, real or preceived
they will find it and expose it.

the original thought from alf, is can we do machine cuts with
hand tools, and should we. i would suggest that we can, 
and if we want to then why not?

what we should all aim for is enjoyment, and enhancement of our
skills commensurate with our need to produce tuits sooner
rather than later.

paul :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (19 Jul 2006)

Alf":2msvolqj said:


> Stuck up some hurried scans of the aforementioned articles here.



Alf,

Thank you so much for posting those articles. How graphically and delightfully Charles Hayward always wrote. What I found so interesting was the reminder of how ordinary people in those days accepted their lot, for there was no way in which the average person had the means to change it. He was writing, of course, about people who were working around the time of the First World War (1914-1918), and he refers to change, from a woodworking perspective, with the introduction of more machinery in commercial workshops. However, I think the feeling that ordinary people had that they were powerless to change their lot, lasted far longer. I was born in 1945 and through the 1950s I can vividly remember that most average people felt much the same as those Charles Hayward describes in his articles.

Of course many things had changed by the 1950s such as the introduction of the National Health Service, so in that sense people were better looked after. However, people were still relatively powerless to change their lot from an economic viewpoint. I have often wondered what was the single most significant thing that changed and led to the more affluent society in which we now live. I reckon it was the ending of resale price maintenance which was brought about by Ted Heath in the 1960s when he was President of the Board of Trade. Today it is difficult to think back and remember that before then manufacturers set the prices of goods so, for example, a six-penny bar of chocolate cost the same wherever you bought it. Shops were not allowed to sell it for less. When we think of the swinging sixties we think of Elvis, the Beetles and long hair but I think it was the ending of resale price maintenance and the effect that had of driving consumerism, employment and cheap prices that really changed things.

Thanks again for posting them - they were a really good read :wink: 

Paul


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## Anonymous (20 Jul 2006)

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## Pete W (20 Jul 2006)

Paul Chapman":2chk9c7b said:


> Alf,
> 
> Thank you so much for posting those articles. How graphically and delightfully Charles Hayward always wrote.
> Paul



Agreed... fascinating stuff, and as good a read as I've had for ages.


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## dedee (20 Jul 2006)

Just finished reading those articles, a bit out of focus but no headache yet :lol: 

There are two quotes within that struck a chord with me.



> a good craftsman turned out good work whatever tools he used



and (too long for me to re-type verbatim) the bit about no one sharpening their own saws, either prevented in so doing by the foreman as the job took so long or it was regarded as a trade of its own. That sure makes me feel better.

Andy


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## woodbloke (20 Jul 2006)

Paul wrote:



> I have often wondered what was the single most significant thing that changed and led to the more affluent society in which we now live



To go off topic a bit:

There is little doubt in my mind that *the* most significant thing by far to have happened in the 20 century was the invention by two American scientists in 1947 of a little thing called a transistor...remember them? This led directly, a few years later, to the introduction of integrated circuits, or 'chips' as we now know them in the early 70's and the consequential mushrooming of the consumer society and all the associated electrical/electronic goods which are so much a part of our everyday life and which we take very much for granted.

Mr Grimsdale wrote: 




> almost everything made up to about 1914 was excellent,



Statements like these cause me to smile a little :wink: :wink: ....do you recollect a certain Belfast built liner launched in 1912 with a single skin hull that went to the bottom of the North Atlantic on April 15th taking more than 1500 souls with her? I would concede that the build quality of the ship was fantasic, save in certain elementary design considerations namely single skinned hull, lack of lifeboats and poor watertight compartments. It may be of interest to know that had Brunel's Great Eastern hit the same iceberg, it is reckoned that she would have survived the collision as she was built with a double skinned hull way back in the 1850's - Rob


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## Anonymous (20 Jul 2006)

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## woodbloke (20 Jul 2006)

Jacob - as I said, nothing wrong with the craftsmanship, but clearly it wasn't an 'excellent' ship - Rob


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## Alf (20 Jul 2006)

dedee":2mvdpr5u said:


> Just finished reading those articles, a bit out of focus but no headache yet :lol:


Sorry Andy; I'm trying to do what BB told me I ought to except I've lost his email explaining how, it's unfamiliar software and, well basically I don't have a clue what I'm doing. #-o  But at least their a bit bigger now, which should help. :roll: 

Someone on one of the fora (might be here - I'm easily confused) has a sig line along the lines of:
Noah's Ark was built by amateurs.
The Titanic was built by professionals.

Always makes me chuckle, that one. Course the Ark was built by hand too. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## engineer one (20 Jul 2006)

i agree alf it is a good chuckle, but i am concerned at the all encompassing
comment that ALL craftmanship pre the first world war was fantastic.

frankly that is such rubbish it is difficult to know where to start.

since more people were taught both at home and at work to 
do things with their hands more regularly, the standard of basic
handiwork was better, but not necessarily than now, just that more
people could do the basic work in those far off days.

but anyone who has studied early industrial archeology as i have will
know that much of it was pretty basic and not very pretty.

reading those article that alf published, it is obvious that there were a 
number whose skills were pretty basic, and it was difficult for them
to move up the ladder. but as an apprentice in the late 60's, i 
met a couple of guys who could do things with metal and their hands
that i still could not do after a couple of years metal bashing.

it is fascinating to see a man massage a dent from a copper kettle
with his fingers and not see the work, whilst if i did it with a hammer,
even after hours of dressing did not look as good.

the other pain is the old guys who used to be able to paint coach
lines with a brush, and refill with paint and restart, and you 
could not see the join. i have seen a couple of p/d's who can 
do similar.

craftmanship is craftmanship whenever, but the rubbish will generally 
get left in the dump, or broken up and rebuilt properly if you are lucky.

i think too many people see great crafted pieces and forget how many 
did not make it through the years for us to see. that is why many have
a distorted view of the level of craftmanship at any one time.

remember history is always written by those who win, and the 
things that survive are generally the best that was made, rarely 
the cheap tat.

paul :wink:


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## Paul Kierstead (21 Jul 2006)

Alf":3uvtxdf4 said:


> But another thing has caught my eye - why d'you want a stopped groove in a drawer side anyway?



A while back I asked how on earth you *efficiently* make a stopped groove/dado with hand-tools, where efficiently related to the past makers being able to eke out a living. The answer was (in my abbreviated version): "don't". It still remains one of the most enlightening answers I have ever received w.r.t. hand tools.

PK

Doctor, it hurts when I hit my head on the wall, what should I do?


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## Alf (21 Jul 2006)

Heck, Paul, that's dangerously back on topic... :shock: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (21 Jul 2006)

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## engineer one (21 Jul 2006)

hi alf to get back to topic, hand cutting lap joints in 4x2
is probably the most difficult job i have done recently.

next time machine work i think.

paul :wink:


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## Chris Knight (21 Jul 2006)

Jacob,
You only have to look at George Ellis's "Modern Practical Joinery" to appreciate the extraordinary (by today's standards) level of expertise expected of joiners. I love the staircase geometry stuff for example.

Also as you have mentioned, the very practical but rather complicated design of sash windows to stop water ingress. Absolutely marvellous examples of ingenuity.

Equally, as Paul has noted, you can look at the hidden bits of an antique and wonder if they had anything to do with the people whho made the show bits.


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## Anonymous (22 Jul 2006)

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## David C (23 Jul 2006)

Alf, 

If bored why not try the stopped, tapered, sliding dovetail joint, as described in Joyce. This was one of the joints I got taught when training. Surprisingly not that difficult to do with just large chisel, plane, tennon saw and router plane, plus possibly side rebate plane.

Years later decided to try this with router, and ended up using two. This is described in Book 1, page 81.

Position in job dictates whether one or two dovetail sides are appropriate.
In my view two would be wrong for a shelf as one will see down into the shoulder of the top dovetail.

I dislike the carelessly chosen router bit with too steep a slope as this does weaken the component.

Hayward splendid as ever!

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## Alf (23 Jul 2006)

David C":3qsrlty5 said:


> Position in job dictates whether one or two dovetail sides are appropriate. In my view two would be wrong for a shelf as one will see down into the shoulder of the top dovetail.


Ahhhh, now that's something I hadn't considered at all, that there's a time and a place for one or the other. Good point.



David C":3qsrlty5 said:


> Hayward splendid as ever!


Mais oui! 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (23 Jul 2006)

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## David C (23 Jul 2006)

Will have to disagree, though your logic is fine.

Check Ernest Joyce or any other reputable text book.

David


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## Alf (23 Jul 2006)

Interestingly Hasluck's _The Handyman's book_ (1903) shows it angled side up, while Jones' _The Practical Woodworker_ (c.1920) is angle side down. Hayward is unwaveringly angle down as seem to be other references until they start making them angled on both sides. I'm all out of older references than Hasluck unfortunately  

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (23 Jul 2006)

David CharlesWorth..... that pommy bloke who wrote a book or two on woodwork ? The hairy looking bloke who made a barn into a workshop....I think I've got his book somewhere lying about covered in dust :wink: 

no. Good book. I like the way he thinks. Pinched a couple of his ideas and call them my own. :lol: :wink:


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## MikeW (23 Jul 2006)

Hmm. I think I've left off this thread for a reason...don't really know what that reason is...

I've only seen single-tailed--single angle--DT joints housed as in Alf's pics where the angled tail is up in timber framed construction. When I've seen it down, it is always on furniture.

I think there are two reasons I can see for the difference. First is there is a loading difference. A timber frame has the greatest load applied vertically. One would not really desire for the angled portion to be on the bottom as it would be extremely weak. On case goods such as a bookshelf, the load is not only vertical, but the racking forces the light construction a bookshelf system has inherently.

To me, that argues for a double, full sliding DT, but I'm not certain this is necessary except on very wide free-standing work.

Second, is the aesthetic David mentions as regards a rebated shelf. Unless it fits both in height and depth precisely, one would see the shoulder of the DT. Cut for a proper fit, I'm not sure this is a real concern.

My only reason for using a sliding DT in free-standing cases such as tall/wide bookshelves is to help prevent the sides from possibly bowing outward and or to control the racking forces. To me the added strength of the shelf proper that a sliding DT over say a rebated shelf fixed with screws or dowels through the sides is just inherent in the mechanical difference.

So what am I adding to this discourse? Not certain...

Take care, Mike
in need of more coffee...


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## deirdre (24 Jul 2006)

MikeW":1tc17xq8 said:


> To me, that argues for a double, full sliding DT, but I'm not certain this is necessary except on very wide free-standing work.



Honestly, until David mentioned it, it simply had never occurred to me that one might want only one side dovetailed, quite possibly because I learned machine tools first and consequently made all my sliding dovetails doubled.

I see his point, though, and for the applications I was considering a sliding dovetail for, a bottom-only angled joint does make sense (in part because I'm not that good yet and the allure of a better-looking joint calls).


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## Chris Knight (24 Jul 2006)

This mention of weakness supposes that the tail is rather larger than I ever make them. I find that a tail about 4-5mm long is plenty for a light carcase and the reduction in thickness at the root is not very much in terms of compromising the strength of the board.


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## Alf (24 Jul 2006)

deirdre":1uhea9fw said:


> Honestly, until David mentioned it


Erm... it was sort of the starting point of the thread... :wink:

Mike, you have indeed added to the discourse 'cos it's made me go back, check, and yes, both the examples I mention above are in furniture, fwiw. Anyone know if Roubo covers it? Moxon? Might as well tidy up the historical precedence if we can, huh? 

Cheers, Alf


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## deirdre (24 Jul 2006)

Alf":3fd94k8t said:


> deirdre":3fd94k8t said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, until David mentioned it
> ...



Yes, but somehow I got logged out and kept looking for days, seeing no new messages, then suddenly I discovered I'd missed entire threads, so I started reading the messages out of order (not knowing where I'd last read from).

I'm tired, it's been dreadfully hot here (it was 41C Saturday, and only a bit cooler Sunday), so I'm a bit befuddled.


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## David C (25 Jul 2006)

Deirdre,

I do not do well with heat. When mercury goes over 70 degrees F, I find it unpleasant, sticky paw prints on steel tools and timber........

We are having a heatwave in UK. though in coastal Devon, the effects are ameliorated by the sea. We get 30 deg C and London gets 38 C.

Have no idea how you cope with 41 deg ......

David


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## deirdre (25 Jul 2006)

David C":3hblwdtp said:


> I do not do well with heat. When mercury goes over 70 degrees F, I find it unpleasant, sticky paw prints on steel tools and timber........
> 
> We are having a heatwave in UK. though in coastal Devon, the effects are ameliorated by the sea. We get 30 deg C and London gets 38 C.
> 
> Have no idea how you cope with 41 deg ......



David,

I've always wanted to visit Devon (and Cornwall), but the closest I've been is Bristol.

For heat, I can manage up to about 80F(26C), but after that I'm at serious risk for heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

How do I cope with 41F? I didn't. I spent a good chunk of the day elsewhere. Today it was 91F, except that I had a job interview in a nearby town that was 108 (41C) and due to rolling blackouts, their elevator had gone out (so I had to walk up to the third floor using an outside staircase), and of course their air conditioning had gone off, meaning I had an hour-and-a-half job interview in the wilting heat. They should hire me just for the dedication of being there. 

The other night when it was so hot, we said to some friends that we were going to a movie "to cool off." After we returned, one of the friends asked, "So how was 'An Inconvenient Truth'?" It took until the next day before I realized he was being funny. Of course I didn't see a film about global warming on the hottest day of the year....

Still, 30 degrees is very, very hot for Devon.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (25 Jul 2006)

> Have no idea how you cope with 41 deg ......



David

That is about average for summer in Perth! Many days around 43 degrees C. I guess it is all in the level of humidity. Here it is very low, around 10% or less, so the heat is dry. I do not have any problem with tools rusting inspite of living near the Swan River. By comparison Sydney summers (where I lived 18 years ago) are in the high 20s (Centigrade) but with very high humidity. Not pleasant at all. What I find hard to handle is the cold. We have had little rain this winter with clear skies and sunshine - but it gets to about 15-18 degrees (Centigrade) and around 3 degrees in the morning and at night. Try holding a chisel wearing mittens! 

I have spent much of my life surfing and windsurfing but I just could not imagine doing so in the UK. Do you still surf?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Mirboo (25 Jul 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> By comparison Sydney summers (where I lived 18 years ago) are in the high 20s (Centigrade) but with very high humidity. Not pleasant at all.



It must be global warming (or a typo ) because now typical Sydney summers are high 30's (Centigrade/Celsius) with high humidity. We typically get a couple of days over 40 degrees each summer but not too many. I think 42 degrees was about the hottest we got last summer.

It's the middle of winter here at the moment and we're getting temps into the high teens, occasionally breaking through the 20 barrier. We had a day of 23 a week or two back which was nice for winter.

My house is only about 150 metres from the ocean so the salt air combined with the high humidity of the Sydney summer can be a real problem in terms of tools rusting. #-o


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## Keefaz (25 Jul 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> > Have no idea how you cope with 41 deg ......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I live in a surfing town in the North of England! I can comfirm that although it's been very hot recently, the surfers go out no matter _what_ the condition.


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## Mirboo (25 Jul 2006)

Keefaz":3m8hinb1 said:


> I live in a surfing town in the North of England! I can comfirm that although it's been very hot recently, the surfers go out no matter _what_ the condition.



I was down at my local beach last week and there were people in the water swimming. It was 17 deg. C that day which a Sydneysider would usually say is a bit cold for swimming. Interestingly though, the temperature of the ocean here at the moment is about 19 deg. C so it was actually warmer in the water.

During summer here the water temp in the ocean gets to about 22 or 23 deg. C.


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## Keefaz (25 Jul 2006)

Mirboo":24tgdcxx said:


> Keefaz":24tgdcxx said:
> 
> 
> > I live in a surfing town in the North of England! I can comfirm that although it's been very hot recently, the surfers go out no matter _what_ the condition.
> ...



I think if the water ever got to 19 deg. here, the surfers would have to start abandoning their double-thickness wetsuits to keep cool.


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## David C (25 Jul 2006)

Not really surfing any more, did it for about 35 years, and never got very good, but it was fun.

Used to surf all through the winter but the ice cream headaches were not fun. Don't know how those tough people, who surf the reef at Thursoe do it. Best waves in Uk in winter?


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## Keefaz (25 Jul 2006)

David C":10xvwym1 said:


> Not really surfing any more, did it for about 35 years, and never got very good, but it was fun.
> 
> Used to surf all through the winter but the ice cream headaches were not fun. Don't know how those tough people, who surf the reef at Thursoe do it. Best waves in Uk in winter?



Generally, although we have the British Surf Championships coming here in early October, but that may be down to weather for spectators rather than optimum surfing conditions.


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## Sgian Dubh (25 Jul 2006)

Ah Deirdre, you remind me of my 10 year sojourn living in Houston, Texas.

The most miserable hot, humid, enervating climate I've ever lived in. Never again. And to top it all the land's as flat as a pancake and as boring as sin. Plenty going on in Houston, although it's too hot for most of the year to do anything.

I was mighty glad to move back to the UK to get away from the heat and to experience four seasons a year again instead of Houstons' two-- summer (Nov-Feb) and Somewhere South of Hades (March- October, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. 

Oh, I suppose I should comment on the topic in hand, but here in the UK right now it's too darned hot! Slainte.


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## David C (25 Jul 2006)

Keefaz, you post no location, would that be near Newquay ?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (26 Jul 2006)

I am not sure how this relates to handcut joints - although I have built or repaired many surfboards and windsurfers with handtools. I do find it unnecessary to use a sliding dovetail or a mortice-and-tenon joint ... all one requires is a dollop of epoxy resin. It seems in this world butt joints rule. As do rasps - I find my block plane tends to clog cutting the 'styrene endgrain. :lol: 

Richard, if you experienced Houston as flat, I'm afraid that you would feel the same way about Perth. There is a wonderful coastline, however, and forests and vineyards down south. Margarets River is a duplicate of Hawaii when it comes to big waves. I do miss the mountains of my childhood in Cape Town.

David, I long since passed from surfing to windsurfing (inwhich I competed more enthusiastically than successfully on the local circuit). The advantage is that I don't fall into the water as much, so stay reasonably dry and warm. I do think that you'd like the Perth waters - Indian Ocean and like a warm bath some days.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (26 Jul 2006)

David C":7su4il0m said:


> Keefaz, you post no location, would that be near Newquay ?


Poor fellow seems to be Ooop North - Tynemouth Longsands is the British Surfing Championship venue this year.

Cheers, Alf

Who likes watching surfers fall in, but that's about it.  :lol:


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> David, I long since passed from surfing to windsurfing (inwhich I competed more enthusiastically than successfully on the local circuit). The advantage is that I don't fall into the water as much, so stay reasonably dry and warm. I do think that you'd like the Perth waters - Indian Ocean and like a warm bath some days.



Y :lol: our a windsurfer ! How about that. ....I was too once....in my teens I just loved it. Couldn't get enough of it. Used to sail back and forth in Mortain Bay of wellington point every weekend. Stay out all day.....come home badly sunburn't. I had a 4.7m2 and a 5.7m2 Neil Pride 'wave' sails and a 'windaction' slalom board, that I proudly bought from working on a milk run... miss those days


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## engineer one (26 Jul 2006)

so if i get this right,

you have to have played in the water with strange boards and sails
to be able to spend the rest of your life using hand tools and
making joints by hand which replicate machine made joints??  :? 

is it the water that gets on your brain when you tip into the water,
or is it those rubber suits that you all wear??? :lol: :lol: 

no seriously, it is interesting how many of you who love using hand tools
seem to love jumping on silly bits of fibreboard in the water.
kind of like those of us who are nutty enough to want and like motorbikes.

now the only question is did we ever find out whether anyone had an 
answer to alf's question :twisted: :twisted: 

paul :wink:


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## David C (27 Jul 2006)

The brain cells or inclinations were probably dubious before the salt water got to them.

The black rubber is more a survival strategy than a fetish.

Heard this once; Cabinetmaking, "the last resting place of all reprobates"

David, who also toyed with windsurfing, biking, and blowing trunnions half way through his leg during the black powder and mediaeval cannon design research stage. aged 13yrs.


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## deirdre (27 Jul 2006)

David C":1t2okhq8 said:


> The brain cells or inclinations were probably dubious before the salt water got to them.
> 
> The black rubber is more a survival strategy than a fetish.
> 
> ...



David,

The more posts I read of yours, the more fun you seem. I have to admit that last bit sounds painful, though.


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## Sgian Dubh (28 Jul 2006)

David C":h55wri12 said:


> Heard this once; Cabinetmaking, "the last resting place of all reprobates"



Nah. That can't be right, David. I thought that was for incorrigible rugby players, such as myself, a proud member of Boroughmuir RFC Reprobates.

The first tenet of being a BRFC Reprobate is, "We do not play Sevens."

Second, "No kicking of the ball is permissible, except for try conversion attempts. Conversion attempts are coducted in a strict order. First conversion attempt is kicked by the player wearing number 1 on his back. Second conversion attempt is by number 2, etc.."

Third, "All kicks from hand during open play (even during desperate defensive moments) are subject to a swingeing fine-- amount to be determined by the Chief Reprobate."

Fourth, "Pre-game hospitality is port, biscuits and cheese-- in no particular order."

Fifth. "Half time refreshment consists of 1 can of beer/lager per player per team. 30 or 60 cans of beer/lager per team are acceptable half time refreshments-- chilled optional."

That'll do for now. The rest of the Reprobates code of conduct involves things like diplomatic conduct and cultural niceties in the presence of women and pretty sheep which I probably ought not to go into in detail. Slainte.


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## Alf (28 Jul 2006)

David C":3kvyflfd said:


> blowing trunnions half way through his leg during the black powder and mediaeval cannon design research stage. aged 13yrs.


Cor, never would have pegged you for a dabbler in explosions, Mr C. Quite the eye-opener this thread is turning out to be... :shock: 



Sgian Dubh":3kvyflfd said:


> RFC Reprobates


Surely this is tautologous...? :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (28 Jul 2006)

engineer one":2mrs6qhi said:


> no seriously, it is interesting how many of you who love using hand tools
> seem to love jumping on silly bits of fibreboard in the water.
> kind of like those of us who are nutty enough to want and like motorbikes.



Some of the true "manually operated" fans amongst prefer rather lighter, more elegant (but slower) bikes.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Britis ... ritish.htm

BugBear (own of a late 1960's lugless fixed Claud Butler, inter alia)


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## Sgian Dubh (28 Jul 2006)

Alf":q87tlsfg said:


> Sgian Dubh":q87tlsfg said:
> 
> 
> > RFC Reprobates
> ...



Hmm, there is a difference Alf. Reasonably sober rugby players that are dedicated to their sport and to fair play have a chance of redemption.

The Reprobates sub-section of the club are probably beyond saviour-- eternally damned. 

As to your original post, I don't see much point in trying to make hand work look like machine work. 

They're generally two different ways to get to a similar end result, i.e., furniture (woodwork) that works. Slainte.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (28 Jul 2006)

> Second, "No kicking of the ball is permissible, except for try conversion attempts. Conversion attempts are coducted in a strict order. First conversion attempt is kicked by the player wearing number 1 on his back. Second conversion attempt is by number 2, etc.."



Richard

How clever! Of course the subtle meaning here will be lost on our American cousins who have missed out on the fine game of rugby ("gentlemen playing a ruffian's game"), since they only know of football, or soccer ("ruffians plating a gentleman's game"). The (reversed) order of taking kicks by the BRFC Reprobates is indeed a thumbing of the nose at the establishment.

Regards from Perth

Derek (ex-#15, fullback and kicker Extrordinaire)


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## Paul Chapman (28 Jul 2006)

bugbear":2usisvtn said:


> BugBear (own of a late 1960's lugless fixed Claud Butler, inter alia)



Ah, not as good as my Allin, Stan Butler Special, which I had made in 1970. Track ends, round front forks, Campag Pista chainset and pedals, Cinelli steel stem and madison bars, fixed wheel (of course!). Nice bike - pity about the legs :lol: 

Paul


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## Mirboo (28 Jul 2006)

Sgian Dubh":byl18avo said:


> Second, "No kicking of the ball is permissible, except for try conversion attempts. Conversion attempts are coducted in a strict order. First conversion attempt is kicked by the player wearing number 1 on his back. Second conversion attempt is by number 2, etc.."



Good job Jonny Wilkinson and his mates weren't playing by these rules back in 2003.


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## Sgian Dubh (28 Jul 2006)

Mirboo":uiiv6n2r said:


> Good job Jonny Wilkinson and his mates weren't playing by these rules back in 2003.



Yeah, well, there was sometimes a wrinkle to the order of attempting conversions, Mirboo. Ocassionally, if there was a true sense of sportsmanship and fair play between opposing teams, they would agree that all the forwards would play as backs-- and all the backs had to play as forwards.

Then the conversion attempt order was reversed, 15 first, then 14, etc.. At 15 there might be a pug-ugly, lumbering tighthead (1): at 14, perhaps the pretend back-- the fleet footed, nancy boy No. 8 or 7 (that's me): at 14, a gazelle like, lightning fast side-stepping 2nd. row, etc.. 

Wilkinson wouldn't have had chance to get his kicking boots on from his appointed job as 2nd. row donkey, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Clinton1 (28 Jul 2006)

Oh, Well Done  Alf!
A fantastic choice of thread topic(s) - unfortunately I've been away and come onto the thread quite late. If I post something that has already been stated, my apologies - I have read the whole 6 pages, but may not have taken it all in.

Mr_Grimsdale made the comment (way back on page 2, no less) in regards to 'old is better' in relation to it being the "culmination of a collective intelligence. 
Woodbloke made a point that Joyce commented that a lot of the Victorian furniture was "unbelievably shoddy workmanship".

I'd like to comment that design and manufacture has to be seen through the understanding that:
"the quality stays with us and the rubbish is consigned to the bin" (always?);
that Victorian furniture was made in a time of high pressure to impose sweatshop practices on craftsmen IOT meet the demand by the middle class for "cheap & high-class" household items. (that old "cheap & high-class" chestnut is still with us!), and
do we sometimes view old cabinetmaking techniques as being from "the collective intelligence" when perhaps they are not?

I believe that a lot of Victorian furniture is actually an example of 'dumbing down' the craftsman's art into a process workers task. Think of Henry Fords assembly line, which should be credited with his success more so than his automobile's design.

My point? Lets see if I can tie all this together, its late so be kind :roll: :
My trouble is that I'm self taught - I've a terrible teacher :wink: and have no structure to my education sources. I can copy what I consider to be the best designs of the "collective intelligence", but gaining a full understanding of "why?" is difficult and full of conjecture. What is an example of Victorian factory line assembly, what shortcuts and compromises am I copying? Am I looking at, and learning from a piece of furniture that has survived from 'what sense of worth'? Did it survive because it is worthy from a craftmanship perspective, or because a much loved aunty decreed it be passed on? My trouble is that I am self taught!


MDF - fantastic stuff, just wish the source material was all plantation grown, and a friendlier glue was used. It really is the perfect material for utilitarian furniture, as the recovery level from the log is so much higher than for sawn timber, i.e. a higher rate of the log is turned into the value added product, as opposed to sawing boards which can see a 70% loss. Its ideal for furniture that will end up in landfill. :wink:, and as a stable sub-strate for veneers. 

Cheers,
clinton


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## Alf (28 Jul 2006)

Welcome to the forum, Clinton.

Not sure being self-taught is any worse than having a mentor - being taught by someone else can just give you all their prejudices instead of finding some of your own. :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (28 Jul 2006)

Alf":3kl3d88z said:


> Not sure being self-taught is any worse than having a mentor - being taught by someone else can just give you all their prejudices instead of finding some of your own. :wink:



It saves time, at least :wink: 

BugBear


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## MarcW (28 Jul 2006)

Clinton1":cp5f9ccc said:


> ... Did it survive because it is worthy from a craftmanship perspective, or because a much loved aunty decreed it be passed on? My trouble is that I am self taught!



Hey it is that easy! Good stuff survives because it is good, good enough to make us a richer being. Good enough to withstand daily abuse and for sure war or better wars. I've an almost 300 year old wardrobe. It is a precious but worn piece. Man it has survived all those years. It is easy to detect good old pieces because they have survived. There aren't as many of them these days. Disassemble and you will see. Look at the joints and the wood.

That said, there is good stuff these days too. I think they are those pieces one wouldn't abandon even if their style didn't fit our present furnishings. Those that you can't imagine throwing into the bulk. Although it is much more difficult to make the difference because there is this huge quantity of stuff around and very well formed sellers who can talk that much everything beyond perfection. 

All this IMHO for sure.

Regards, Marc


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