# You need to be sitting down ...



## Andy Kev. (18 Dec 2016)

... before you have a look at this:

https://www.dictum.com/en/tools/woodwor ... 97_1_12_12

How much??? For a marking knife?

Mind you for a couple of bob more you can get a hammer:

https://www.dictum.com/en/tools/woodwor ... 97_1_12_12

which at least puts a bit more in your hand.


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## DiscoStu (18 Dec 2016)

That's nuts 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fitzroy (18 Dec 2016)

Free sharpening though! Save you hours of debate on here


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## AndyT (18 Dec 2016)

It's more than I would pay for a marking knife, but I think it's just an example of "Premium Pricing". Some people will like it, arguing that if it costs so much, it must be the best. Maybe they already have a Rolex watch and a Ferrari.

Dictum are smart enough to have a wide range of other marking knives, for a few Euros upwards, so all their customers can find one at a price they are willing to pay. 

It's a well established idea, visible in many old tool catalogues. Popular tools for such a premium range included plough planes, levels and marking gauges.

But yes, it's a lot of money for a knife, even if it includes a helping of Japanese mystery and free resharpening.


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## BHolcombe (18 Dec 2016)

The more famous a blacksmith the more his pricing will increase. If you really want sticker shock take a look on eBay for Ichihiro chisels, Usui Kengo planes, Kiyohisa anything, Shigfusa knives,etc.


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## Cheshirechappie (18 Dec 2016)

I do see what Andy Kev is saying, and I 'sort of' agree. But for those of us just wanting a basic, functional tool to mark lines, there are plenty of sensibly priced options, and some higher priced ones. You can even do a Paul Sellers and regrind a redundant kitchen vegetable parer.

However, there is a little imp in me that says, "Why should the art world have a monopoly of overpriced, overhyped artifacts? Why not the practical world too?" If people are prepared to spend obscene sums on Picasso paintings, Damien Hurst pickled sharks or whatever, why not try to support the practical arts in the same sort of way? It's just another manifestation of the huge variety of the human condition, that's all.

By the way, do they do the knives left-handed or spear point? Somebody had to ask....but I'll bet they never do a 20oz claw hammer in that manner!


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## Andy Kev. (18 Dec 2016)

Cheshirechappie":2fivmrsx said:


> I do see what Andy Kev is saying, and I 'sort of' agree. But for those of us just wanting a basic, functional tool to mark lines, there are plenty of sensibly priced options, and some higher priced ones. You can even do a Paul Sellers and regrind a redundant kitchen vegetable parer.
> 
> However, there is a little imp in me that says, "Why should the art world have a monopoly of overpriced, overhyped artifacts? Why not the practical world too?" If people are prepared to spend obscene sums on Picasso paintings, Damien Hurst pickled sharks or whatever, why not try to support the practical arts in the same sort of way? It's just another manifestation of the huge variety of the human condition, that's all.
> 
> By the way, do they do the knives left-handed or spear point? Somebody had to ask....but I'll bet they never do a 20oz claw hammer in that manner!


I ought to make it clear that I don't object in the least to tools like these being sold at such prices (as long as they are indeed of high quality) and I accept fully your art-related sentiment and if folk find satisfaction in owning such things then I genuinely wish them well. As it happens I stumbled upon them while looking what to spend my Christmas bonus on because it allows me once a year to treat myself to something which I really couldn't normally justify. I think what got me about the marking knife is that even the best marking knife in the world (which isn't going to cut wood more finely or precisely than my humble Pfeil knife) should surely cost at an absolute max no more than about 100 quid. How wrong I was!!! The 500 Euro hammer at least looks like some sort of work of art.

(And for what it's worth I ended up with a Clifton 4 1/2 which works like a dream and has definitely got more knobs and screws on it than that marking knife.)


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## iNewbie (18 Dec 2016)

When you read this bit:


> Chiyozuru is one of the most well-known names for plane blades and other woodworking tools in Japan. *Many of these forged tools from current and previous generations are viewed as national cultural treasures in Japan.* Furthermore, the tools have also received numerous awards. After a 13-year apprenticeship under his master Chiyozuru Sadahide II (72 years old), the 37-year-old Chiyozuru Naohide (4th generation) was granted permission to manufacture and sell his own tools bearing the Chiyozuru name.



.....its about as boutique as boutique can get and as their prices go.


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## Biliphuster (18 Dec 2016)

I don't think there is anything wrong with paying more for luxury tools, my time in the workshop is meant to be enjoyable and using nice tools aids that. Specifically I don't mind paying more for luxury tools if I can see a lot of work has gone into them, I know a Clifton has required more work and used more expensive materials than an Anant plane. Similarly I know a Holtey infill has required more work again. The value comes from the pleasure of using something beautifully engineered and aesthetically attractive.

The expensive part of that knife looks to be the name, I can't see anyone getting extra value from it as it's near indistinguishable from a normal Japanese marking knife (I am a philistine when it comes to these things though, so ignore my opinion).


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## BHolcombe (18 Dec 2016)

Spend a lifetime learning how work hitachi white steel 1 in a pine charcoal forge then make the result as sexy as Chiyozuru....make yourself a name in a country with hundreds of famous blacksmiths, then see how much money you'd like for your effort.

These aren't boutique prices as much as they're the pricing of the top tier of smithing in a country known for quality blacksmithing.


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## Bm101 (18 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":wab4grb5 said:


> Spend a lifetime learning how work hitachi white steel 1 in a pine charcoal forge then make the result as sexy as Chiyozuru....make yourself a name in a country with hundreds of famous blacksmiths, then see how much money you'd like for your effort.
> 
> These aren't boutique prices as much as they're the pricing of the top tier of smithing in a country known for quality blacksmithing.



Quite right. It's fairly priced for a part of the market. Each to their own. 
I'm not part of that market though. I can't imagine spending it even I had it to spend.
I _do_ have a bit of 4mm 01 ground stock in ma shed left over from making a recent plane blade though. Guess who's going to knock out a 'representation of a similar idea' of that knife this week on the grinder. Go on guess! 
It definitely won't be me for fear of infringing any legal issues obviously. 
Early thoughts are predicting 'right handed' the reality will more plausibly be 'ambi-sinister'.

:-$


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## monkeybiter (18 Dec 2016)

Bm101":mh0asi9z said:


> Guess who's going to knock out a 'representation of a similar idea' of that knife this week on the grinder. Go on guess!



You know it won't be any good unless it has a hole in it the shape of a vegetable :roll: (hammer)


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## ED65 (18 Dec 2016)

As soon as I scrolled down and saw it was Japanese I knew it would be pricey, but still I wasn't sufficiently prepared. Yikes. Just, yikes.


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## iNewbie (18 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":3c99thks said:


> Spend a lifetime learning how work hitachi white steel 1 in a pine charcoal forge then make the result as sexy as Chiyozuru....make yourself a name in a country with hundreds of famous blacksmiths, then see how much money you'd like for your effort.
> *
> These aren't boutique prices as much as they're the pricing of the top tier of smithing in a country known for quality blacksmithing.*


_
Specialised_. That'll be boutique then.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/defin ... tique.html


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## Biliphuster (18 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":2ldjsaig said:


> Spend a lifetime learning how work hitachi white steel 1 in a pine charcoal forge then make the result as sexy as Chiyozuru....make yourself a name in a country with hundreds of famous blacksmiths, then see how much money you'd like for your effort.
> 
> These aren't boutique prices as much as they're the pricing of the top tier of smithing in a country known for quality blacksmithing.



As I said, complete philistine that I am, I can't see the significance of those features, is white paper steel that different from other high carbon steels? Is the pine charcoal that important? Why are those things so expensive? What constitutes "top tier smithing"? I have mass production tools with forge laminated blades which all work well. I am sorry if I come off as dismissive but as I said, this is something about which I know little.

I like your blog by the way, very very nice work.


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## BHolcombe (18 Dec 2016)

iNewbie":9llj6jjf said:


> BHolcombe":9llj6jjf said:
> 
> 
> > Spend a lifetime learning how work hitachi white steel 1 in a pine charcoal forge then make the result as sexy as Chiyozuru....make yourself a name in a country with hundreds of famous blacksmiths, then see how much money you'd like for your effort.
> ...



They are literally a boutique maker, true, however I don't believe they're inflating their prices. Most could probably hike their prices much higher if they wanted to reduce the length of time it takes to acquire their goods.

Kiyohisa is now something like 8 years wait, and Konobu is over a year. For small shops employing only a few people who work very long days, I think that would imply that they're in fact under-priced since they have such a long line.


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## BHolcombe (18 Dec 2016)

Biliphuster":2vetwzdi said:


> BHolcombe":2vetwzdi said:
> 
> 
> > Spend a lifetime learning how work hitachi white steel 1 in a pine charcoal forge then make the result as sexy as Chiyozuru....make yourself a name in a country with hundreds of famous blacksmiths, then see how much money you'd like for your effort.
> ...



Thank you, and I take no offense to this discussion, just wanted to offer my 2 cents.

Wether or not you value it is one thing and should frankly be set aside from an honest discussion of wether or not something is literally worth the asking price. There are scales of quality, much the same as buying a pair of shoes or something of that affect, the more aspects of quality that are included in a work the higher the price is to acquire such work.

If I want a house built with complicated joinery and top tier old growth woods, I'm going to pay for it. You may see the logic in that...better wood; higher price.....better work; higher price....better design; higher price.....when you contact the best in the field with a long waiting list for their work they charge a further premium. 

A smith who adheres to traditional method is going to be making work that is considered more difficult to achieve, along with a smith using white paper 1 steel and pine charcoal. One who uses a sen tool (scraper) to work the back hollow (ura) more expensive yet.


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## El Barto (18 Dec 2016)

I mean, it's pretty f-ing cool isn't it.


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## CStanford (18 Dec 2016)

The Japanese purveyors of woodworking equipment have been laughing all the to the bank for a while now...

Biggest rip-off in woodworking.


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## thetyreman (18 Dec 2016)

not sure the price is right, I can understand the work involved, but it's truly ridiculous, this is for investment bankers and millionaire entrepreneurs only, in other words the 1%


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## JohnPW (18 Dec 2016)

I suspect the market for this is not woodworkers or even woodworking tool collectors, but sword and knife collectors. How much are Japanese swords, hundreds of thousands of £? Don't people buy them and put them in bank vaults. 

Maybe the maker only makes marking knives as a side line, perhaps they are actually sword makers. Even though £500 to the rich would be like £5 to the plebs, I don't think they would pay £500 for a lowly marking knife unless there was some prestige or status that goes with it; it's made by a famous samurai sword maker.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (18 Dec 2016)

You'd be gutted when you lost in the shavings bin.
.


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## BHolcombe (19 Dec 2016)

JohnPW":3l7c05xb said:


> I suspect the market for this is not woodworkers or even woodworking tool collectors, but sword and knife collectors. How much are Japanese swords, hundreds of thousands of £? Don't people buy them and put them in bank vaults.
> 
> Maybe the maker only makes marking knives as a side line, perhaps they are actually sword makers. Even though £500 to the rich would be like £5 to the plebs, I don't think they would pay £500 for a lowly marking knife unless there was some prestige or status that goes with it; it's made by a famous samurai sword maker.



You may find yourself very surprised when you dig through the tool boxes of guys who do Japanese carpentry work. Many of them use some top end tools without mercy. Not abuse, by any means, but those tools are made to work.

To offer some perspective a sort of general maker kiridashi (marking knife), handmade, would probably run about $150 (USD).

These guys use these tools like one wears a pair of nice shoes...treat them well, avoid a scuff....but they're still made to be walked in!


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## Biliphuster (19 Dec 2016)

Don't think you're getting a hard reception Brian, it's just that half the members here have never paid more than a fiver at a car boot sale for any tool. The only thing most here prefer to picking up cheap tools is arguing about sharpening.


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## D_W (19 Dec 2016)

I can't afford that kind of cake for a marking knife, but I have seen knives of that quality that are plain carbon steel shave iron without chipping. 

I know for sure that my cheap knife doesn't do as well, because I tried to trim the same type of iron hoop and the result wasn't similar.

At any rate, it's like anything else. If you think the price is too high, it's intended for someone else who doesn't. It's certainly too high for me, but so are fast cars and big houses.


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## BHolcombe (19 Dec 2016)

Biliphuster":b50vwryf said:


> Don't think you're getting a hard reception Brian, it's just that half the members here have never paid more than a fiver at a car boot sale for any tool. The only thing most here prefer to picking up cheap tools is arguing about sharpening.



It doesn't bother me at all, and in fact it's more than I would spend for a kiridashi but I can admire it and the work involved. I also admire thrift!


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Dec 2016)

Interesting site, Brian ... once I realised I had to change the .vom to .com


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## Corneel (19 Dec 2016)

However which way you look at it, there is no 500 euro value in this marking knife. Not in the materials, not in the time to make it, not in the craftsmanship, not in the result on your workbench. But then, there is also no 1890 euro value in this Gucci bag. Still they sell like hot cakes! https://www.gucci.com/nl/en_gb/pr/w...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CLHzlNHl_9ACFUGadwodS5QLXQ

It's all in the brand name. Lots and lots of people are prepared to pay way beyond anything reasonable, just because of the brand name. And that's fine of course, it's how many business models work. In my own small, cheap and low profile way I fall for this trap too, buying the brandname instead of the cheap generic product.


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## AJB Temple (19 Dec 2016)

I read this with some amusement. There are a lot of Festool fans on this site. Value judgements are largely pointless as they are subject to personal preference and wealth.


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## iNewbie (19 Dec 2016)

Its mini samurai sword ffs. Its worth every euro - cuz the pound aint worth a dime!


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## Cheshirechappie (19 Dec 2016)

I think it's cultural, as much as anything. The Japanese have a deep reverence for fine craftsmanship, and express that in the way some are prepared to labour long and hard to earn their status as respected makers, and in the way those makers are looked up to. In Europe and North America, we also respect craftsmanship, but don't quite elevate it to quite such stratospheric levels - we tend to reserve that for film stars and pop singers, for some reason.

Is the Japanese blacksmith doing something special, then? Well, he IS doing it to a very high level of skill and finish, but he's not using materials or techniques that were not available in Sheffield and elsewhere two centuries ago. There's nothing particularly magical about 'white paper' high carbon steel or wrought iron; indeed, those two metallurgical entities have fallen out of use in most economies because for 99.9% of applications, there are better options - and there have been for over a century. 

However, for those who do want the 0.1% better performance that might be gained from such a knife or hammer, and gain inner satisfaction from owning and using them, the option is available, at a price; and why not? It's for each to determine their own needs, desires and priorities when spending their own money - and long may that continue.


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## thetyreman (19 Dec 2016)

here's an example of an extremely high quality knife, for a fraction of the cost: http://www.niwaki.com/store/kanekoma-hi ... lue-steel/


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## BHolcombe (19 Dec 2016)

Cheshirechappie":2cgu8utq said:


> I think it's cultural, as much as anything. The Japanese have a deep reverence for fine craftsmanship, and express that in the way some are prepared to labour long and hard to earn their status as respected makers, and in the way those makers are looked up to. In Europe and North America, we also respect craftsmanship, but don't quite elevate it to quite such stratospheric levels - we tend to reserve that for film stars and pop singers, for some reason.
> 
> Is the Japanese blacksmith doing something special, then? Well, he IS doing it to a very high level of skill and finish, but he's not using materials or techniques that were not available in Sheffield and elsewhere two centuries ago. There's nothing particularly magical about 'white paper' high carbon steel or wrought iron; indeed, those two metallurgical entities have fallen out of use in most economies because for 99.9% of applications, there are better options - and there have been for over a century.
> 
> However, for those who do want the 0.1% better performance that might be gained from such a knife or hammer, and gain inner satisfaction from owning and using them, the option is available, at a price; and why not? It's for each to determine their own needs, desires and priorities when spending their own money - and long may that continue.



Better is subjective and by application, I have white steel 1 tools that hold their edges for an incredibly long time, even through work in hardwoods. The reason they do so is because the blacksmith knew what he was doing.

The annual planing competition, in which the contestants are now, regularly, taking 2 and 3 micron shavings, 2" wide and 8' long....they're doing that with blacksmith made white steel blades.

So, you are correct in asserting that there is nothing magical about it, and I agree there is nothing magical. It takes skill, and skilled labor is something you pay for last I checked.....which is the same reason why world renowned Savile Row tailors don't work on the cheap.

Kees....sorry, and you know I respect you dearly, but really consider what you are saying. The price is 500 euro, it is being sold by a retailer who paid a wholesaler who paid the blacksmith. So the blacksmith's price, if I were to take a guess; 150-200 euro. Skilled labor rates in the USA are $100-$125/hr (not what the employee gets paid, but what a client is billed for shop hours or union wage) so consider that the blacksmith had likely 2~ hours in that work plus materials. 

You've done some smithy work, are you taking raw material to a finished product in 2 hours? That is to forge weld, rough shape, grind bevel/profile, scrape the hollow, heat treat, then finish work.....all before coffee break in order to earn your living wage?


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## D_W (19 Dec 2016)

thetyreman":37ssd4eq said:


> here's an example of an extremely high quality knife, for a fraction of the cost: http://www.niwaki.com/store/kanekoma-hi ... lue-steel/



That knife would be in the category of the kinds of things that I've gotten (marking knives, I've never gotten a folding knife). Low cost items are usually made of factory laminated steel. They are usually good (especially compared to third world mass produced stuff), but not in the class of the OP's link. 

There is a cultural thing in Japan that probably doesn't exist in other cultures, that it's not acceptable to sharpen your tools while you're on the job. Maybe that's where the extreme edge holding thing originates.


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## CStanford (19 Dec 2016)

That the Japanese are able to parlay the use of a slightly harder steel into tools that sell for the prices they do is a way more impressive bit of marketing than it is anything else. Take a few photos of a nearly toothless, almost homeless and malnourished octogenarian hammering tool steel in front of a forge situated in a shack somewhere, pen some bullshite marketing blurb for the U.S. market and, voila', add $300++ to the price tag. 

Beyond regurgitation of ad copy, when pressed, most Western owners of these tools can come up with nothing more concrete than "the edges last longer." 

Whooptee do.


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## Cheshirechappie (19 Dec 2016)

Available for the bargain-basement price of 278-43 Euros from Australia - https://www.japanesetools.com.au/produc ... king-knife - which makes Dictum's 490 Euros look a bit steep.

You can still buy a perfectly functional Joseph Marples marking knife for less than a tenner - http://www.toolnut.co.uk/products/measu ... Knife.html

I bought mine from Alan Holtam's Old Stores Turnery some time in the late 1980s for less than a fiver, and it's still going strong. No idea what steel it's made from, but it works just fine. Sharpens pencils, too.


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## ED65 (19 Dec 2016)

Cheshirechappie":2fs5210b said:


> You can still buy a perfectly functional Joseph Marples marking knife for less than a tenner - http://www.toolnut.co.uk/products/measu ... Knife.html
> 
> I bought mine from Alan Holtam's Old Stores Turnery some time in the late 1980s for less than a fiver, and it's still going strong. No idea what steel it's made from, but it works just fine. Sharpens pencils, too.


Like a few others here I presume I made mine from scrap so it was free (other than the time it took to make obvs). But I'm not sure if we're comparing like for like.

Come to think of it though all three will cut a clean, precise line on wood, sharpen a pencil and chamfer the end of a hardwood dowel when needed, so functionally maybe they are uncomfortably closer together than some would like them to be


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## D_W (19 Dec 2016)

Who is our straw person who has bought a knife like the one listed?

I kind of like junk knives made of saw blade material because they can be filed. I have gone out on a limb so far as to buy one of the prelaminated japanese knives that cost $16, though. It's pretty nice. Failed when trimming the hoop for a japanese chisel, though. 

I'll bet japanese workers would wonder why westerners buy $50 dovetail knives that have a 50 cent piece of steel in them.

Actually, I doubt they wonder about our tools as much as we wonder about theirs.


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## AJB Temple (19 Dec 2016)

Interesting comments. I have been to Japan a few times and spent 10 days working in artisan kitchen knife making shops getting tuition (two different places) and a couple of days working at a one man band sword maker in the middle of rural Japan. The time spent at the sword maker was largely spent had making folded steel ingots and is extremely time consuming work. I also spent a few days working with Will Catcheside who make damascus steel kitchen knives in Herefordshire. (Very fine UK maker of a trade that has most proponents in the US and Japan). 

None of this turned me into an expert anything, but what I did learn is that finely crafted hand made tools (or knives or whatever) take a VERY long time to make, especially if you are also forging the damascus steel, even more so if you are doing things like making feather patterns in the damascus. OK, a marking knife, even if made of hand forged damascus steel, is not a complex tool, but you can't hand make it quickly either if you are starting from scratch (as opposed to a pressed blank). 

Some people will pay for that intangible link between the artisan, the tool and themselves. I would not pay that for a marking knife mind you. Or the hammer, even though I value and admire craft skills. 

You can equally argue I suppose that a painting priced at £5,000 is ridiculous because the canvas, frame and paint only cost about £30 and the artist produced it in a couple of days. It comes down to whether you want to pay for something that you consider to be special.


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## Corneel (19 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":2bzwisnm said:


> Kees....sorry, and you know I respect you dearly, but really consider what you are saying. The price is 500 euro, it is being sold by a retailer who paid a wholesaler who paid the blacksmith. So the blacksmith's price, if I were to take a guess; 150-200 euro. Skilled labor rates in the USA are $100-$125/hr (not what the employee gets paid, but what a client is billed for shop hours or union wage) so consider that the blacksmith had likely 2~ hours in that work plus materials.
> 
> You've done some smithy work, are you taking raw material to a finished product in 2 hours? That is to forge weld, rough shape, grind bevel/profile, scrape the hollow, heat treat, then finish work.....all before coffee break in order to earn your living wage?



It certainly looks like Dictum is taking a large part of that 500 euros, when comparing to the 278 euro from the Australian website for the same knife! And those Australians probably don't work for nothing either. I am afraid the blacksmith isn't getting rich from these knifes, he most probably doesn't make 125 dollar per hour, like many self employed craftsman he's lucky when he makes 50!

And then I think he doesn't do one knife or two knifes per day, I think he does batches and easilly does several dozen per day. Now, comes a bunch of arm chair theorising, so if you choose not to believe me, then I have no problem with that!. The fun thing about blacksmithing is that it is relatively quick work. You can move a lot of metal in very short time, when you are skilled. And I don't doubt for a second that mr. Chiyozuru is highly skilled! A very skilled craftsman is also a smart craftsman. I suspect he has gas forges and trip hammers in his shop. When you set up everything to run a batch of say 50 knifes, you have them all welded, flattened and shaped within an hour or so. Make a punch for that curious shape at the back end, or have some laser cutting company do that work for you. Punch the characters. Heat treating all of them, half an hour? Grinding all those 50 knifes takes another hour when the blacksmithing work has been done quickly and neatly. So within half a working day he has 50 knifes, 5 hours times 50 euro makes 250. Divide by 50 knifes and the cost to make them is 5 euro each.

It really is a very simple thing. A nice thing of course, a really nice simple little thing. I wouldn't feel ashamed to own it, but I probably never will.


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## BHolcombe (19 Dec 2016)

I am sure that the reality of it is somewhere between our two extremes. I'm certain they work in batches but I'm highly suspect that we're talking such large batches so quickly.

Many (probably nearly all of them) are using trip hammers but that which is a huge dividing line is the gas forge, the traditionalist is using pine charcoal and it makes for a better product giving that the talent and ability is there.

If these guys were churning batches at that rate, no one would be waiting eight years for a set of chisels. My best guess is that a set of ten good chisels takes around 3 days to produce and an inexpensive set probably takes a few hours.


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## iNewbie (19 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":1gfyopin said:


> I am sure that the reality of it is somewhere between our two extremes. I'm certain they work in batches but I'm highly suspect that we're talking such large batches so quickly.



I dunno. He can get his skates on when he wants too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OvpIGff2c


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## Bm101 (19 Dec 2016)

0.52 He sits down the lazy sod.


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## D_W (19 Dec 2016)

Corneel":2g2dm86a said:


> It certainly looks like Dictum is taking a large part of that 500 euros, when comparing to the 278 euro from the Australian website for the same knife! And those Australians probably don't work for nothing either. I am afraid the blacksmith isn't getting rich from these knifes, he most probably doesn't make 125 dollar per hour, like many self employed craftsman he's lucky when he makes 50!



We have a retailer in the states that is pretty much double what Stu Tierney costs for any given item. I'm sure Stu isn't making much money, though, he's still got his day job last I heard. Nonetheless, that means there's a lot of room between Stu at X and retailer XYZ at 2X.


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## D_W (19 Dec 2016)

iNewbie":o4g5807q said:


> BHolcombe":o4g5807q said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure that the reality of it is somewhere between our two extremes. I'm certain they work in batches but I'm highly suspect that we're talking such large batches so quickly.
> ...



Unless there's something inconsistent about that video with what the guy does day to day, it looks like a lot of the work is still done by hand. In the second video of his, he's finishing an iron by hand with a sen. There is a knife maker who does the same thing, hand finish of their knives with sen and stones. Their knives are extremely expensive, but trying to make a few the way they do and to the same level of finish would probably illuminate why. 

Certainly there is some premium pricing in his goods, but I'd be surprised if he makes more money than the average credentialed professional after the retailer takes their cut.


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## woodpig (19 Dec 2016)

Looks like a bargain.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/japanese-kir ... sel=110186


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## G S Haydon (19 Dec 2016)

I'm pleased to say the UK still has some last bastions of tradition that need supporting too. Made at very affordable prices compared to many offerings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44eGBJx45hg

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/sto ... 12.php?v=v

We even have dragon stories as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Geo ... the_Dragon


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## Biliphuster (19 Dec 2016)

Since they've been brought up, I can say I am very happy indeed with my Henry Taylor carving chisels. I ordered them all on the large handles as I find the standard ones they come with a bit small. They hold an edge despite the very acute angle I sharpen them at. It's amazing when you consider they are properly hand forged (rather than hot stamped in a die a la Pfeil) that they are so reasonably priced. I also love the black scale finish.

We are extremely lucky in this country to have great makers of knives, planes, saws, measuring tools, hammers, chisels etc.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2016)

Shigefusa, by the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNPc6xBBiLk


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## BHolcombe (20 Dec 2016)

That is an excellent video David! I bet if one were able to peer into the shops of top smiths like Konobu they would look very similar to that of shigfusa.

Not so much giant batches and punched everything out in a hurry, and more detail oriented work.


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## D_W (20 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":2duvsxon said:


> That is an excellent video David! I bet if one were able to peer into the shops of top smiths like Konobu they would look very similar to that of shigfusa.
> 
> Not so much giant batches and punched everything out in a hurry, and more detail oriented work.



All of the great shops have the clean crisp subtle finish on every single tool. No duds.

Those operations looked pretty straightforward to me, small shops (literally a family in the shigefusa shop) and a lot of hand work.


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## Corneel (20 Dec 2016)

Thanks for that link David. I'm going to watch it tonight when I'm more relaxed.

My example was of course pretty charged. I suspect that would be more like how it works in a Pakistani sweatshop. And a lot of the work goes in the finish.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Dec 2016)

I didn't notice Mr. Shigefusa use a Damascus steel hammer ... :? :lol: 
By the bye - this one is interesting for contrast - 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nCnh2L1_M4


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## BHolcombe (20 Dec 2016)

Hah, when I see the few people actually adding to the work I wonder why they haven't been replaced by machines.


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## Cheshirechappie (20 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":3l4jq96c said:


> Hah, when I see the few people actually adding to the work I wonder why they haven't been replaced by machines.



Give it time, Brian - give it time. It'll happen.

Certainly a contrast between the old techniques and the new. I did wonder what capital investment went into the automated knife factory; they'd need to sell a fair few knives to break even. However - both methods are perfectly capable of making knives that will do what they're supposed to do.

I rather doubt anybody will set up such a factory making marking knives, the market not being big enough, but Narex have done something similar for chisels, at least in part - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gittWRq2Sjk


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## BHolcombe (21 Dec 2016)

Kiridashi are everyday utensils in Japan; marking knife but also carving knife, gardeners use them as grafting knives, etc etc.

I would imagine Henkles makes their money back quickly, those knives are sold in practically every store that sells cutlery in the Western world,


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## Alexam (24 Dec 2016)

Advertisers without stock, who wish to retain their position on search engines, simply increase the item's price to silly person level. Then adjust the price down when they do have stock. If they were to remove their advert, it would result in more costs to re-list the item. Perhaps it's me, but I thought everyone realised that.

Happy Christmas to all.

Malcolm


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## Jelly (25 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":8m3jecxk said:


> Many (probably nearly all of them) are using trip hammers but that which is a huge dividing line is the gas forge, the traditionalist is using pine charcoal and it makes for a better product giving that the talent and ability is there.



How so? What evidence do you have to suggest that working with pine charcoal produces a better result? What is the mechanism of action for the improvement?

I suspect if I took three knives, the one from the OP, and two of the same design one forged with a gas hearth and power hammer and one made by water-jet cutting Hot-rolled plate.

functionally they would be indistinguishable,
The pine-charcoal one might be carburised on the surface giving increased hardness, but the effect wouldn't be uniform enough to be truly meaningful.
Etching the surface to show microstructure would reveal that both forging methods produced the same effect of flowing the grain in specific directions to increase the stiffness of the workpiece,
the one cut from plate would exhibit substantively similar characteristics when etched, as long as the cut was aligned with respect to the grain structure produced by rolling.

[Apologies, I'm aware that this devolves into a kind of rant beyond this point]

Blacksmithing, at heart is just a name for small scale forging, which boils down to bashing hot metal to achieve specific properties... As these properties are desirable, they're well studied, and modern methods have been fine tuned over the last 175 years to produce things to exacting standards. It's almost insulting to the industry and the individuals who have been involved with that development and the current practice of forging to suggest that they can't possibly meet the standards of someone using traditional methods.



I have a lot of respect for the skill of this famous Japanese smith, but I doubt that it exceeds that of the skilled smiths of the early Victorian era. His experience and apprenticeship will have taught him approximations of how to achieve results we can now deliver with great accuracy and reliability; and he rightly deserves recognition for his dedication to his craft.

However, with regard to your earlier comment


BHolcombe":8m3jecxk said:


> ... top tier of smithing in a country known for quality blacksmithing.


, give where credit is due, Germany and the UK have led the world in forging for well over a century, and on such a phenomenally grand scale that Japan's cottage industry is not of any great note by comparison; the Chinese and Taiwanese (or is it Chinese and Chinese?) have followed hot on their heels, and the US made a pretty important contribution to during the 1910-1970 period too...


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## Corneel (25 Dec 2016)

Just like you Jelly I am a bit sceptical about some of these theories. Pine charcoal is the best kind of charcoal, it burns hot and leaves very little ash. It also doesn't contain sulphur like black coal, but in reallity that doesn't make a lot of difference to the finished product because the sulphur is being burned out and the little that does get infused into the steel is very superficial. So, a pine char coal furnace makes for a pleasant kind of solid fuel furnace. A gas furnace is a lot more convenient though. When you starve the oxygen a bit you get a similar carbon rich environment as a coal fire. In the end it is all about tradition, what the smith learned to work with, how his workschedule looks like etc. 

The quench has a similar mystique surrounding it. The soft mountain water of Miki should impair some special properties to the steel. The quench has always been a mystery until more recent metallurgy started to explain what happens exactly. Middle age descriptions of steel making would tell the smith to collect the water from a special beach, under a full moon and mix it with the urine from a virgin red headed girl etc etc. In reality the quench only needs to cool the steel quickly enough to avoid the formation of pearlite but not too quick to avoid cracking and warping the steel. The only thing relevant to the quenching fluid is its cooling rate, you shouldn't be too surprised when the water of the London sewer system works just as well as the mountain spring water from Miki city.

A big thing in tool making is the grain size. The Japanese white paper steel is great stuff with a very fine grain size. But overheat it a couple of times and you get a biscuit like substance with a grain you can see with your naked eye! It is the skill of the smith that makes the tool, the right forging temperature, not too hot not too cold, working swiftly to avoid unnessary scaling etc. Then comes the heat treatment that could easilly wipe out all skilled forging work if done incorrectly, but when done with care it could decrease the grain size even further.

I think we can admire the skill of the Japanese blacksmiths just as well without mytical hokey pokey. Making a laminated blade from a very simple high carbon steel at very high hardness levels is a quite a feat!

The drop forging method is a lot easier then traditional black smithing! And makes a similar quality of the steel in the end product when done correctly. I watched the Zwilling factory video. They now seem to have quit the drop forging technique and start now from a strip and only heat up the bolster area to forging temperatures. That leaves the sharp end of the knife untouched. So they rely on the quality of the steel as supplied by the steel makers. Of course, heat treatment is quite a science these days, so I suppose they don't make any mistakes in that part either. The Western knife making factories use different kinds of steel compared to the traditional Japanese black smiths. They use various alloys to control the properties of the steel and don't temper the knifes quite so hard. Edge retention comes from the alloys and less from the hardness. In adition, stainless is almost standard these days. A Japanese knife can be honed sharper and has good edge retention through it's hardness but asks for more care in daily use. Just like chisels in fact.


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## CStanford (25 Dec 2016)

So-called "white paper," "blue paper," and other premium steels are produced in the tens of thousands of tons each year and sold by, and used by, huge multinational manufacturing concerns. Modern manufacturers are able to use these top-quality steels and not ruin them. If they weren't able to do this then they wouldn't waste their money buying premium raw materials. The notion that it takes a nonagenarian master Japanese blacksmith to fully exploit the physical properties of these steels is wishful thinking, to put it charitably. There is skill involved but it is wildly embellished and romanticized, and to good marketing effect it appears to me.

As for laminated blades Stanley and Record proved these weren't all that hard to do and in quantity, to boot.


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## D_W (25 Dec 2016)

Corneel":29nmlfvc said:


> A big thing in tool making is the grain size. The Japanese white paper steel is great stuff with a very fine grain size. But overheat it a couple of times and you get a biscuit like substance with a grain you can see with your naked eye! It is the skill of the smith that makes the tool, the right forging temperature, not too hot not too cold, working swiftly to avoid unnessary scaling etc. Then comes the heat treatment that could easilly wipe out all skilled forging work if done incorrectly, but when done with care it could decrease the grain size even further.
> 
> I think we can admire the skill of the Japanese blacksmiths just as well without mytical hokey pokey. Making a laminated blade from a very simple high carbon steel at very high hardness levels is a quite a feat!



I think the skill itself is what serious users are after, not any of the other stuff. Pine charcoal probably doesn't do much of anything compared to gas (and especially not good temperature regulation), but it suggests some attention to detail. (There may be something about it preventing decarb, I don't know). 

The real trick is that white 1 has a really narrow temperature range, and it takes some skill to consistently make great tools. 

Making "good" ones doesn't require anything other than prelaminated material and good process. I'd imagine that the process could be tightened well enough to do white 1 well, too, but don't know as there probably isn't much of a market for the risk. Of course, mass produced goods tend to look mass produced, and that's a bit offputting in the world of japanese tools. The kind of crisp subtle finish isn't on mass produced tools.

I've never heard the one about the water, just the narrow temperature range that white 1 has.


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## BHolcombe (26 Dec 2016)

Jelly":h1gjk5la said:


> BHolcombe":h1gjk5la said:
> 
> 
> > Many (probably nearly all of them) are using trip hammers but that which is a huge dividing line is the gas forge, the traditionalist is using pine charcoal and it makes for a better product giving that the talent and ability is there.
> ...



It reduces carbon loss in extremely high carbon steels, that combined with a capable smith makes for a glass hard carbon steel blade the does not chip. They do need to keep the heat range very tight.

I actually enjoy using both old Western laminated blades and new Japanese laminated blades using traditional method. I don't feel the need to poo-poo one or the other, or suggest that one is all fan-fiction. Also I'm not attempting to be an annoying know-it-all but instead point out that some of the opinions are Japanese tools presented are quite unfair. 

You are implying that I mean to say that Japan is the only place with capable smiths, I did not say that. I do not need to qualify my statement by saying that other places also can make a nice thing..

I would think anyone carving with handtools might raise an eyebrow if I suggested their process is better done by CNC machine. Do you think smithing is any different?

Better still when you think of the virtues or hand planing and someone comes along to tell you that your missing out in not simply putting the wood through a sanding machine....


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## Corneel (26 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe":fo78awrv said:


> It reduces carbon loss in extremely high carbon steels, that combined with a capable smith makes for a glass hard carbon steel blade the does not chip. They do need to keep the heat range very tight.



You get exactly the same effect in a coal forge. And a gas forge can have an oxygen starved atmosphere too when you turn down the air supply. That of course reduces the temperature so you need some big manly burners to start with.

It's mostly a traditional thing I guess. And they sure can get good results with pine charcoal. In my little bit of experience it doesn't make things easier. I use charcoal when forging at home but have worked with coal and gas too. Charcoal needs a constant resupply and readjusting of the fire. Coal is much easier in that respect. But coal stinks so I don't use it at home and I haven't made a gas forge yet.


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## Andy Kev. (26 Dec 2016)

BHolcombe"
Better still when you think of the virtues or hand planing and someone comes along to tell you that your missing out in not simply putting the wood through a sanding machine....[/quote said:


> I think that much of the discussion turns on that: I imagine that most of us value genuine handwork as opposed to the mere operating of machines. Do we not tend to value hand cut over machine cut dovetails?
> 
> The Japanese smiths are clearly highly skilled people and it seems to me to be a good thing that smithing has a valued place in Japanese culture and of course that these blokes can make a living from what they do.
> 
> I personally don't feel the need for a Japanese chisel (Ashley Isles, Veritas and long gone Sheffield producers have the ground covered for me) but can well understand why people want to own such objects especially as each piece is by definition unique. I can't imagine that they cut wood much better though.


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## Wildman (26 Dec 2016)

I think that is quite a reasonable price for a marking knife, I can supply razor sharp marking knives made from broken hacksawblades, err quality HSS for only £100 pound each though.


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## CStanford (26 Dec 2016)

"I think that is quite a reasonable price for a marking knife, I can supply razor sharp marking knives made from broken hacksawblades, err quality HSS for only £100 pound each though."


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## CStanford (26 Dec 2016)

I recall reading in Bernard Jones, or it could have been Wells & Hooper, a recommendation to use a chisel "found too hard for its intended use" as a scraper burnisher. Maybe hardness isn't all it's cracked up to be (pardon the pun), of course the Japanese ability to defy the laws of material physics notwithstanding... :roll:


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## Jelly (26 Dec 2016)

Corneel":3qk8i1oj said:


> ... a gas forge can have an oxygen starved atmosphere too when you turn down the air supply. That of course reduces the temperature so you need some big manly burners to start with.



It starts to get terrifying when you look at Carburising processes in a gas hearth... A large refractory cylinder inside the hearth, with a supply providing a slight positive pressure of pure acetylene inside it, such that there's a sooty acetylene flame in the mouth of the cylinder for inserting the workpiece; extremely controllable though.



Corneel":3qk8i1oj said:


> Coal is much easier in that respect. But coal stinks so I don't use it at home and I haven't made a gas forge yet.



Have you considered induction heating instead of a hearth? I've
used coal, gas and induction and the latter is my favourite by far.



BHolcombe":3qk8i1oj said:


> I don't feel the need to poo-poo one or the other, or suggest that one is all fan-fiction.


You'll have to forgive me if you feel I'm dismissing the positives of the Japanese tradition out of hand, but I felt quite strongly that your argument failed to acknowledge the level of advancement that modern forging techniques have achieved, in the best traditions of Brearley, Huntsman, Firth-Brown, Bessemer, et all.


The real issue (in my view) is that Japanese society has respect for good products well made, much moreso than others parts of the world; the vast majority of modern western chisels for instance, even of high quality seem to be drop-stamped blanks which are shaped by grinding or milling; with modern steels that's "good enough", meaning only a handful of firms actually forge the whole shape.

With a greater drive for "best" rather than "adequate" quality in the western world, I'm sure Stanley could churn out very fine machine made chisels to compete with Japan's finest, but as I've illustrated at length elsewhere, the financial drivers behind the market simply don't justify the capital investments to do something like that.



BHolcombe":3qk8i1oj said:


> I would think anyone carving with handtools might raise an eyebrow if I suggested their process is better done by CNC machine. Do you think smithing is any different?
> 
> Better still when you think of the virtues or hand planing and someone comes along to tell you that your missing out in not simply putting the wood through a sanding machine....



As it happens, I do carve, and rather enjoy it... I also programme CNC machines, and that has its own charm too; I've recently been playing with the idea of using a V-bit in a CNC router to rough out incised Latin letters, then working the serifs and fine details by hand (where the work is both easier, and of higher quality by hand than by programming the router).

I learned by experience that there's no virtue in hand-planing, beyond when it's a more sensible choice for reasons of practicality; I will quite happily bang timber through a Planer-Thicknesser all day long if needs be, or plane a similar board by hand if factors like reversing grain or simply huge size make it impractical.

It took me some time, to arrive at the conclusion that unless the work is an end in itself (and as a hobbyist, it can be for me), then the value of the results is independent of the process, it's all down to what's been achieved.


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