# Your cheapest honing setup? **buying new only**



## ED65 (31 Dec 2016)

I mentioned something about this in another thread last week and had been thinking about starting a thread to see if there were viable alternatives out there that were similar in price or possibly even cheaper.

My candidate is an inexpensive 1000-grit diamond plate and a loaded strop. All in you're looking at under a tenner.

I got the diamond plate from AliExpress specifically to see how it compared other honing surfaces I have. It turned out to work great and it very soon occurred to me that it could be a standalone honing option if need be. Being diamond it's aggressive enough to hone quickly even on harder steels but fine enough to leave a good usable edge (obviously it'll wear in and become finer with use as all diamond plates do). By itself it works well enough, but combining it with a loaded strop I think would cover the needs of almost all users as long as they're not wedded to working on stones.

The strop can be anything you like, from the surface of MDF or planed hardwood to some random bit of leather or tough cloth stuck to a scrap of plywood or chipboard. For the compound any fine metal polish, cutting compound/scratch remover, Chromium Oxide crayon or commercial honing block will do.

Strop: *free*.
Compound: *£5 or less*.
Diamond plate: I paid € 5,51 for mine, they're currently at €3.84 which is *£3.30* at current exchange rates. Link here.

Here's my plate:







I just checked back and I've had it longer than I thought, very nearly a year. It's had light but regular use, mostly used dry but occasionally with white spirit as a lubricant.

So what would your cheap-as-chips honing setup be, bought new? Can't be anything that relies on boot-fair finds; if you're lucky enough to have any good car boots near you there's a good chance you could pick up a great old oilstone for 50p to a couple of quid of course, but that sort of thing is out of reach of anyone living elsewhere.


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## lurker (31 Dec 2016)

Wet and dry. £2.60 for 10 sheets 180 grit
Glued to a scrap of MDF
Stick a whole sheet, leave to dry and then cut the board into three long sections
I use spray evostick

The sheet will wear quite quickly and can then become a finer grade until it's just a strop


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## ajmacleod (31 Dec 2016)

Thanks for the review, will give them a go - that's certainly a great price!


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## woodbrains (1 Jan 2017)

Hello,

With sharpening stones, the old adage applied here: you can have any 2 out of the three! Cheap, fast but not good; cheap, good but not fast; or fast, good but not cheap. TBH only the last 2 are worth a punt and when you get serious only the last one. 

Sharpening really is a means to an end, and what counts has nothing to do with cost. Get the edge you want quickly but don't take cost cutting shortcuts and dupe yourself into thinking you've done what you need. Go through the grits, just the same as you would if sanding, don't skip a grit. 

1000 grit followed by a strop is ultimately flawed, all you are actually doing is polishing the tips of very rough peaks; this is not the same thing as sharp!

Mike.


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## D_W (1 Jan 2017)

dollar store aluminum oxide hone (literally $1) and autosol on MDF. Not as convenient to use as pricier setups, but works fine. The only thing the stone lacks is it wasn't soaked in oil, and could stand to be stuffed with petroleum jelly. 

I hung a hair on the edge of a chrome vanadium chisel with that setup. It took a couple of minutes to get to that point, but it's doable.

( a setup like this isn't ideal for flattening new or old tools, but on amazon over here, a psa roll of porter cable paper is about $12 delivered - 4 inches wide and 10 yards long. The cheap stone can pick up where it leaves off. ).


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (1 Jan 2017)

The 10c system ..






Directions here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... ystem.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## JJ1 (1 Jan 2017)

My current set-up users wet & dry paper on a piece of glass and after seeing them mentioned on this forum, a £5 double-sided Trend diamond stone.
The glass cost nothing (I found it) but I have bought a piece in the past for £5, about 10mm thick and cut to any size I wanted.
I've just replenished my stock of wet & dry. Total cost (inclusive of shipping) was just under £24 for 4 sheets of 120, 240, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 3000, 5000, 7000. I cut the sheets into thirds so this little lot will last me many years. I also have some Veritas honing compound on a thick piece of leather and on a piece of 18mm MDF. Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't, after reading it can actually be detrimental to the edge and round it over very slightly. Would it really even do anything after coming from a piece of well-used 7000 grit wet and dry, I've no idea? I'm very satisfied with the sharpness achieved.
One mistake I made initially before the purchase of the diamond stone was spending too long replenishing an edge using too fine an abrasive. It gets there in the end, but talk about wasting time and unnecessary work :roll: . I now prefer to sharpen more regularly and quickly bring back a slightly dull edge, rather than wait till it's very dull. If it has become very dull then I find a few strokes on the diamond stone, before moving on to the wet and dry, very fast and effective. I use an Eclipse honing guide and one thing I've learnt is it's better just to take several light backward strokes on the 3000, 5000 and 7000 grit wet and dry, rather than frantically going back and forwards and ripping the paper, which seems to be much more fragile than the coarser grits. I also use a spray bottle with washing-up liquid/water as the lubricant.
I will probably buy another couple of diamond stones when they're on offer.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (1 Jan 2017)

Do you use all those grits?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## JJ1 (1 Jan 2017)

Hi Derek,

I used to use most of them. I had four grits on each side of a glass plate. Now I've got the diamond plate, I tend to use that (600 grit on one side, I believe) to achieve the wire edge, then just use the 1000, 3000, 5000 and 7000 wet and dry. I'm still very much a relative novice to all this sharpening malarkey, compared to many here  so I dare say some of the grits aren't totally necessary. But for the minimal cost involved I thought I may as well stock up. Despite what it sounds like, it doesn't take me long to sharpen even though my secondary bevels are much larger than perhaps they should be.
I'm only woodworking as a hobby so don't have any time restraints, so if it takes me a couple of minutes to sharpen as opposed to a few seconds, it's not an issue. In fact I quite enjoy a relaxed sharpening session at the end of the day and the satisfaction of knowing all the tools are ready for the next use


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## Cheshirechappie (1 Jan 2017)

I'd agree that abrasive papers stuck to wood or glass is the way when faced with the need to go maximum Scrooge.

However - one step up, here's what I'd do. 

First, a Norton combination oilstone, coarse/fine, £24 from Classic Hand Tools - https://www.classichandtools.com/acatal ... tones.html

Then, an Inigo Jones slate hone, £6-95 plus postage - http://www.inigojones.co.uk/products/Honing-Stone.php

Then, home-made wooden boxes for both, and a bottle of baby oil, cheapest you can find in the nearest supermarket.

Next, a selection of wet-and-dry papers in various grits up to about 2000 from Halfords, or cheaper if you can find them, and sticks of various shapes and sizes to fit odd-shaped edges such as in-cannel gouges, curved plane irons and so on - make up as needed.

Finally, a piece of thin leather glued to a slip of wood, undressed, used for stropping. (That's the posh version - most chisels and plane irons can be stropped on the palm of the hand, though the leather is a better bet for very narrow ones. Don't ask how I know that.)

That just leaves grinding, and here I'm going to cheat, and buy a 6" hand-crank grinder from a well-known interweb auction site, and a new white coarse grit wheel. With a home-made toolrest, you're all set. If you want to be really comprehensive, add a couple of thin wheels and a wheel-dresser, and dress them to a round profile on the edge. You can now regrind in-cannel gouges and hollow plane-irons.

Add a small square to check edge straightness and squareness, and a bevel angle gauge made by marking different angles on a piece of cardboard and cutting them out with scissors, and there's not much in the woodworking edge-tool arsenal that you couldn't sharpen.

(Actually - that is pretty much what I use, these days. I do have an old Tormek 7" grinder - it started as an 8" but it's diminishing rapidly - which sees some use when the mess can be tolerated, but that's about it. The old Norton Waterstones I used to use are in storage, not because the oilstones are better, just because they're less messy. I've also used ceramic stones, which are very good but not quite as quick as the oilstones. I've not tried diamonds or lapping films.)


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## ED65 (1 Jan 2017)

Thanks gents. Some very inexpensive options there!

Anyone new to the idea of using abrasive papers for sharpening and/or honing, it's often referred to as the Scary Sharp system these days although the idea goes back to long before that was first coined (earliest reference I've been able to find is from the late 40s or early 50s IIRC). 

It can work really well but the standard objection is that while it's initially cheap over time you end up spending more than if you'd opted for oilstones, waterstones or diamond plates. Given a long enough timeframe abrasives will always work out to be the most expensive option, except possibly when compared to something like a Tormek :lol:


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## ED65 (1 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":1ya6f3zw said:


> With sharpening stones, the old adage applied here: you can have any 2 out of the three!


I agree in the principle generally but I'm sorry, sharpening is one case where you can tick all three boxes. 



woodbrains":1ya6f3zw said:


> Sharpening really is a means to an end, and what counts has nothing to do with cost.


Steady on there, different standard for different people Mike! The kind of guy who would hunt through the summer for a bargain old oilstone at a car boot, and begrudge paying more than two quid for it, would have a very different perspective on this.



woodbrains":1ya6f3zw said:


> Go through the grits, just the same as you would if sanding, don't skip a grit.


Sharpening isn't sanding and honing isn't sharpening. 

Saying it's necessary to work through the grits conflicts with most of the historical practice I'm aware of and the advice in older books based on it. I'm sure you must know that it wasn't uncommon until recent times to have just the one oilstone in the workshop, and it would rarely have been double-sided! After the stone, as Hayward and some other writers refer to, _some _users felt the need for a strop but not all.

There are no end of posts here saying the same thing, including many in recent months talking about setups built around single stones, which stones make the best contenders for this, whether you need a strop etc. My suggestion here is merely a version of that, continuing a long tradition.



woodbrains":1ya6f3zw said:


> 1000 grit followed by a strop is ultimately flawed, all you are actually doing is polishing the tips of very rough peaks; this is not the same thing as sharp!


I think you might want to leave some room for me having noticed if I wasn't able to turn a burr after 11 months of using the thing Mike ;-)

This is a 1000-grit diamond plate Mike, not at all the same animal as P1000 wet 'n' dry which is what I presume you're using as a base of reference.


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## ED65 (1 Jan 2017)

D_W":23n4nior said:


> dollar store aluminum oxide hone (literally $1) and autosol on MDF. Not as convenient to use as pricier setups, but works fine. The only thing the stone lacks is it wasn't soaked in oil, and could stand to be stuffed with petroleum jelly.


Any plans to try filling it? 

I have a spare oilstone that came as part of a set I got as a present, as it's one of those bone-dry porous SiC stones I was planning on doing it with that and comparing the stone's performance with a similar/identical one that's already part of my user collection. Just want to knock up a box for it before I do the impregnation as it might end up as a dust magnet.



D_W":23n4nior said:


> I hung a hair on the edge of a chrome vanadium chisel with that setup. It took a couple of minutes to get to that point, but it's doable.


FWIW on the various things I've tried this with (various carbon steels, old and new, and one or two modern chisels in CrV, a couple of small things in HSS) I can usually turn a burr in about ten strokes.


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## custard (1 Jan 2017)

ED65":djgq2rio said:


> Anyone new to the idea of using abrasive papers for sharpening and/or honing, it's often referred to as the Scary Sharp system these days although the idea goes back to long before that was first coined (earliest reference I've been able to find is from the late 40s or early 50s IIRC).



I'd be interested in seeing that reference. I'm sceptical because the quality of sandpaper available to the home woodworker in the 40's and 50's was pretty rubbish, surely that would have made any sandpaper based sharpening system equally poor? Looking through "The Woodworker, The Charles Hayward Years", I can't see any reference to abrasive paper based tool sharpening, nor in Bob Wearing's "The Essential Woodworker".

Looking back over the really significant innovations to small scale furniture making since I began in the 1980's, I can only think of three. 

Affordable routers, vacuum bag veneering/laminating, and excellent quality abrasive papers. 

Anyone with a long enough woodworking memory will recall the dreadful "glass paper" that was still being sold into the 1990's; grit that fell off the paper and embedded itself in the workpiece, inconsistent grit size, backing paper that was forever tearing, and abrasive particles that went blunt after a few seconds of use. It's difficult to imagine such shoddy materials being of much use against tool steel. Comparing that with the amazingly effective abrasives available today is why I put sandpaper amongst the most important innovations of the past forty years.


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jan 2017)

Agree totally on glasspaper front - but was emery and wet and dry so bad in comparison? I don't recall its being so.


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## G S Haydon (1 Jan 2017)

Norton India combination stone. It'll outlast just about anything and provide an edge keen enough for all general woodworking.


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## JohnPW (1 Jan 2017)

I think abrasive/sand paper shouldn't be included because they don't last long, being worn out after a few uses whereas stones will last from years to life times.

Or you could include sandpaper but work out the cost compare with using stones over a long time, sand paper will be hugely more expensive than any stone.


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## D_W (1 Jan 2017)

ED65":25zdor9e said:


> D_W":25zdor9e said:
> 
> 
> > dollar store aluminum oxide hone (literally $1) and autosol on MDF. Not as convenient to use as pricier setups, but works fine. The only thing the stone lacks is it wasn't soaked in oil, and could stand to be stuffed with petroleum jelly.
> ...



No plans at this point to fill it as I don't have too much chance of using it. It's too aggressive for my normal needs.


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## bugbear (2 Jan 2017)

ED65":34fdnwzp said:


> It can work really well but the standard objection is that while it's initially cheap over time you end up spending more than if you'd opted for oilstones, waterstones or diamond plates. Given a long enough timeframe abrasives will always work out to be the most expensive option, except possibly when compared to something like a Tormek :lol:



Agreed - but then it's common for the long-term cheapest solution to have higher capital costs, in many spheres of life.

One might argue that your question should have specified wether cheapest was in terms of capital cost or "long term" running cost.

BugBear


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## bugbear (2 Jan 2017)

Cheshirechappie":wjz8bkqy said:


> I'd agree that abrasive papers stuck to wood or glass is the way when faced with the need to go maximum Scrooge.
> 
> However - one step up, here's what I'd do.
> 
> ...



Agreed - with second hand bargains forbidden by the question we're answering, I think the slate stone is by far the best "after the india stone" choice.

Since stropping is nigh on free, that would probably be the best final stage, probably with slurry from the slate stone as dressing.

BugBear


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Jan 2017)

BB

For set up speed, a secondary micro bevel on 600 grit W&D takes a few strokes. 

I cannot see how anything can beat green compound on hardwood for the combination of longevity, finish and cost.

Can your cheap system really beat this?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodbrains (2 Jan 2017)

G S Haydon":2bf984pe said:


> Norton India combination stone. It'll outlast just about anything and provide an edge keen enough for all general woodworking.



Hello,

I doubt you'll find a furniture maker or woodcarver that would agree with this, though, so perhaps you should include some sort of disclaimer!  

However, as CC has said here and myself countless times before, the Norton fine India followed by a Welsh slate is excellent and for the ultimate edge, stropped. I used this set up for decades and still do sometines now. I only changed after experimentation with the other methods available, as an education as much as anything else. 

Mike


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## JohnPW (2 Jan 2017)

> Then, an Inigo Jones slate hone, £6-95 plus postage - http://www.inigojones.co.uk/products/Honing-Stone.php



Unless it's a mistake, UK P&P is £10!!? 

So actual price is £17 unless you go there in person to buy it.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":xexg0kx6 said:


> G S Haydon":xexg0kx6 said:
> 
> 
> > Norton India combination stone. It'll outlast just about anything and provide an edge keen enough for all general woodworking.
> ...


He _has_ qualified it; "an edge keen enough for all general woodworking".

Move on to a bit of leather and autosol (etc) and you then have an edge keen enough for a woodcarver, without a doubt. 

Would even be good enough for "fine furniture" but I expect some of them would would deny this! Nothing is ever good enough for the over-worked fussy dovetail obsessives :lol: 

Happy new year!


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> The 10c system ..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You'd find it much easier and faster if;
1 You don't attach that lump of wood to the blade (what's it for?)
2 You simply drop your wet n dry (whole A4 sheet) onto an impermeable surface (glass, planer bed etc) into a pool of fluid e.g. water, white spirit, Glenfiddich (much cheaper than Honerite :lol: ) and flood the surface. 
Thin paper wet n dry sticks very well like that, once it's flattened down. Best stored between boards to keep flat. Cloth backed no good.


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## G S Haydon (2 Jan 2017)

Not at all. For some select people finer mediums might prove useful, carvers working in soft timber like lime would be something that springs to mind or Japanese finish planing on very soft timber.

The picture in my avatar is the "wood from hell" that proved difficult to plane for LN's team west-dean-pics-t24308.html . Rob was kind enough to send me a bit, must send it back! I planed it using a Stanley #4, india stone edge and a close cap iron. No issues! Clearly it's a wood that should be scraped but it was possible to plane it without an 8000 grit edge and a steep planing angle!

An india stone is very agressive when new but once bedded in it's ideal. You can even you use the money saved on sharpening gear buying wood!


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## iNewbie (2 Jan 2017)

Speaking of papers/cloth used its interesting to read some of the history - a 5 year apprenticeship!

http://www.oakey-abrasive.co.uk/history/


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## Cheshirechappie (2 Jan 2017)

JohnPW":18939rjw said:


> > Then, an Inigo Jones slate hone, £6-95 plus postage - http://www.inigojones.co.uk/products/Honing-Stone.php
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's still by far the most cost-effective 'fine' sharpening stone I know of. Anything of comparable edge-refining capacity (somewhere in the order of about 8000grit) tends to be nearer £100 than £17 - think black Arkansas, high-grit number waterstones, ultra-fine ceramic or diamonds.

By the way, I wholly agree with Graham - the combination Norton India is more than adequate for most woodworking, the fine side giving a perfectly decent edge, especially if the last of the burr is stropped off on a piece of leather, bit of scrap wood, palm of hand or whatever. However, there are times when a more refined edge helps, such as when working softer, easily crushed woods, or those with alternate hard and soft bands, or when you want a particularly crisp finish on end grain.

For anyone just starting out, you could do a lot worse than the old 8" x 2" combination. It doesn't cost a fortune, will last a lifetime (especially in amateur use), won't need flattening often (cue rant from Jacob!), and the coarse side gives you the chance to reshape primary bevels if you don't have access to a grinder and are prepared to spend a few minutes at it. About it's only real limitation is that the exotic steels don't respond well to it - but when starting out, you can avoid those! Very versatile piece of sharpening equipment.

Edit to add - by the way, we talk a lot about honing and stropping, but we really ought to include grinding in the discussion more often. It's a vital part of the tool maintenance regime; even more so if it's intended to buy secondhand tools and refurbish them.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2017)

Cheshirechappie":1bjs0cn4 said:


> .....
> 
> By the way, I wholly agree with Graham - the combination Norton India is more than adequate for most woodworking, the fine side giving a perfectly decent edge, ........Very versatile piece of sharpening equipment.


Oil stones need to be freshened it up occasionally - it makes a huge difference. I use a 3m diapad (wet) but other scrubby things will no doubt do the trick.


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## G S Haydon (2 Jan 2017)

Great points CC!


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## woodbrains (2 Jan 2017)

Cheshirechappie":37hjrgh4 said:


> by the way, we talk a lot about honing and stropping, but we really ought to include grinding in the discussion more often. It's a vital part of the tool maintenance regime; even more so if it's intended to buy secondhand tools and refurbish them.



Hello,

Which is why I say you can never have the 3 desirable qualities from sharpening stones. 

If the OP uses 1000 diamond and a strop, he is obviously gaining 'cheap' by only using one stone despite diamond plates not being exactly cheap per se. But that system is going to be slow, if that is the grinding element of the sharpening, too.

I do not see the sense in stropping after too coarse a grit, though. The particle size of a Norton fine India is about 42 micron. What is the point in going directly to 0.5 micron green soap? The edge will act just the same as that the coarse stone gives, just the very tips of the peaks of the sharpening scratches will be shiny! For the cost of the Welsh slate, another stage on that would be better, even omitting the strop altogether. 

Mike.


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## Jelly (2 Jan 2017)

Jacob":3al279vl said:


> woodbrains":3al279vl said:
> 
> 
> > G S Haydon":3al279vl said:
> ...



Being entirely lazy I've found that black rouge on a tightly stitched cloth wheel will take me from the fine side of an India stone to an edge good enough to carve soft, crumbly wood... Red or White on a leather wheel will take an edge to the point of being able to cut whitewood end grain smoothly without crushing the early wood.


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## ED65 (3 Jan 2017)

custard":pwn58imx said:


> ED65":pwn58imx said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone new to the idea of using abrasive papers for sharpening and/or honing, it's often referred to as the Scary Sharp system these days although the idea goes back to long before that was first coined (earliest reference I've been able to find is from the late 40s or early 50s IIRC).
> ...


If I can find it again I'll post it here. Fairly sure it was a reader-submitted tip in one of the American mags whose full archives are up on Google Books. As for the quality of sandpaper, they might have specified abrasive paper or cloth for metalworking, so if it's from the date I think it was it's most likely to have been emery? 

Not sure when Alox or SiC sheet material became more widely available, it was used in industry earlier than we might think since the abrasives themselves came along just around the turn of the century.

The concept of sharpening on an abrasive sheet material (paper or cloth) definitely predates Scary Sharp since I have a British publication from the mid-80s that has the tip (went and found it, it's in "The Tool Book", Orbis, 1985). And as the idea is semi-obvious I'd be shocked if that was the earliest someone had thought of it. Certainly there are tips on sharpening things like tweezers using sandpaper from the inter-war period.


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## ED65 (3 Jan 2017)

woodbrains":38mgo2pl said:


> But that system is going to be slow, if that is the grinding element of the sharpening, too.


With respect Mike, if you haven't used 1000-grit diamond plates you shouldn't be making statements based on your assumption of how they work, as well as how slowly they cut.

Because it's finer than you're thinking and it's not slow  

As I related to D_W, I can raise a burr in ten strokes or so. Plane irons are usually back in the plane in under 30 seconds, chisels I will usually take more time over but it's still under three minutes.


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## Sgian Dubh (3 Jan 2017)

ED65":3ho4m1ck said:


> The concept of sharpening on an abrasive sheet material (paper or cloth) definitely predates Scary Sharp since I have a British publication from the mid-80s that has the tip (went and found it, it's in "The Tool Book", Orbis, 1985).


Back in the 1970s when from time to time I had to go out and install some furniture or joinery we'd made, and if I'd been dumb enough to leave my oilstone in the workshop, it wasn't unusual to resort to using a bit of abrasive paper to touch up edges. I learnt that trick from old farts that had probably been doing the same for forty or so years - 'Scary Sharp' has been around for decades. I've even been known to use a smooth concrete step or similar on-site in an emergency - not great as a sharpening medium, but desperate measures can sometimes get you out of a hole.

I tend to agree with Jacob on the sharpening thing; the KISS principle works pretty well, and I've relied for years on a grindstone, a combination oilstone and a bit of stropping on the palm of the hand for the common straight blades, plus a few slips for gouges and the like, and all generally economically priced. Even now I do pretty much the same, except I most often use a ceramic stone instead of an oilstone, but that's only because I'm not keen on getting oily hands, and the chance of transferring the oil to the wood. Slainte.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Jan 2017)

Very much the same except I prefer water stones - I'd rather get a drop of water on the wood than a drop of oil, for one thing.


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## ED65 (4 Jan 2017)

Custard, so far the earliest reference I've found to sharpening using abrasive stuck down on something is from 1913 (!) and there are multiple references to it in woodworking publications (all American) from earlier in the 90s and in the 80s. One from 1989 is significant, it shows the idea was thought so commonplace that it was just mentioned in passing, "If you're sharpening on sandpaper..." kind of thing.




Sgian Dubh":10zkg8ha said:


> Back in the 1970s when from time to time I had to go out and install some furniture or joinery we'd made, and if I'd been dumb enough to leave my oilstone in the workshop, it wasn't unusual to resort to using a bit of abrasive paper to touch up edges. I learnt that trick from old farts that had probably been doing the same for forty or so years - 'Scary Sharp' has been around for decades.


Yes, as it's such a commonsense solution it shouldn't be a surprise that the idea had been around for a long long time before the now-famous post on rec.woodworking in 1995. What does surprise me though is how its prior existence has been so widely forgotten, but we can file that away in the same curiosity box as the wholesale amnesia online about the close setting of the cap iron as a solution to tearout :? 



Sgian Dubh":10zkg8ha said:


> I tend to agree with Jacob on the sharpening thing; the KISS principle works pretty well...


Completely agree. For me this also extends to the amount of work that needs doing: flattening backs just enough to get a narrow strip near the edge flat and polished/semi-polished, doing nothing to the primary bevel if you don't need to and one or two other things.


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## timothyedoran (3 Jun 2019)

ED65":2270vost said:


> I mentioned something about this in another thread last week and had been thinking about starting a thread to see if there were viable alternatives out there that were similar in price or possibly even cheaper.
> 
> My candidate is an inexpensive 1000-grit diamond plate and a loaded strop. All in you're looking at under a tenner.
> 
> ...



Sorry to bring a tread back from the grave but I would love to know how your cheap AliExpress stone has lasted. Would you still recommend it?

Had to remove the link to post this


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## D_W (3 Jun 2019)

I'm not Ed, but I have one that's lasted fine. I've used it intermittently for several years now (three?), and find it to hold up about as well as a DMT stone, though it's not quite as flat (it's close - good enough for maintenance sharpening).

Like any other stone, the large stones in the electroplate leave the matrix pretty soon and you're left with the stuff that isn't so proud of the surface (so the hone settles in to being a lot slower and then just sort of stays there).


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## timothyedoran (4 Jun 2019)

Thanks, I think they are worth a go then.


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## bridger (4 Jun 2019)

bugbear":2ytzdu4f said:


> ED65":2ytzdu4f said:
> 
> 
> > It can work really well but the standard objection is that while it's initially cheap over time you end up spending more than if you'd opted for oilstones, waterstones or diamond plates. Given a long enough timeframe abrasives will always work out to be the most expensive option, except possibly when compared to something like a Tormek :lol:
> ...



Certainly making that distinction a part of the discussion at the outset would have set the course of conversation on a narrower track, but it wasn't so it didn't. So now we're here, discussing both at once without much distinction. We'll survive.

I teach sharpening at the local woodcraft store. Next week I have a student coming in who is starting from pretty much nothing. I want to bring her a range of stuff to try out. I have no idea her financial situation, but i doubt she'll want to drop hundreds of dollars on stones just starting out, nor would i advise her to. What I'll likely bring in:

*norton india medium, fine, chr.ox strop


*dmt extra coarse(250 ish), 600, 1200, chr.ox strop


*norton and king waterstones, i think 4 grits, chr.ox strop


*Soft ark, lilywhite ark, trans white, surgical black, extra fine spyderco ceramic



As a range of systems, roughly ascending cost. I suppose i should bring sandpaper on glass also, but i probably won't.


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## Honest John (4 Jun 2019)

It’s been a while but I do enjoy a good sharpening thread, even though this one sneaked under the radar by setting boundaries. After many years of using just about everything that has so far been mentioned with (to me) acceptable results, I settled about 5 years ago to the method St. Paul uses..... a series of diamond plates followed by leather strop. The plates I bought when ITS had offers on, and I use the double sided ones and have grades from 300 to my finest at 1200. I have been intrigued with many of the comments made and now wonder if I should be going to something after the 1200 but before the strop? I would have thought that the Inigo Jones slate might fit into this slot? This also raises a further question. How sharp is sharp? To my hobby based non professional workshop activities my level of sharpness seems to be fine, but would I know when a sharp edge could be improved on? I can shave hairs on my arms but I’m not completely sure if that is either safe or any measure of the sharpness. Kind of implication is that if you can shave the hairs on your arm the edge cannot be made any sharper ? I thought I was up to speed with this sharpening malarkey then this damn thread came along (hammer)


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## bridger (4 Jun 2019)

If it's cutting what you need it to than it's sharp enough. I do like to play about with different stuff but it's not that I need to, more that I like to push the envelope. There have been a few points along where my sharpening took a bit of a leap in edge quality. The first was probably finishing on an ark, about 1980. Another was getting up to speed with straight razors about 8 or 10 years ago.

The definition of sharp enough seems to be somewhat situational.


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## johnnyb (4 Jun 2019)

my mate is a lifetime pro woodworker and he uses a norton india and his hand as a strop. his main no 5 is a rapier thats been broken and welded. 
he does great. he laughs at all my fancy rubbish. but being a pro hes mostly electric. but does pay hand tools due respect.


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## Jacob (5 Jun 2019)

johnnyb":11mljn6m said:


> ....... he uses a norton india and his hand as a strop. .....


All you need really. Perhaps a bit of leather for a strop if you are after a very fine finish from chisel or plane.
One stone, one piece of leather, last you for life.
I've been around some of the alternatives - waste of time and money, though luckily I was never tempted into the craze for "flatness" - itself a by product of the craze for jigs.
Did flatten an oil stone once in case I was missing something but couldn't see any point in it.


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## Osvaldd (5 Jun 2019)

Before I acquired washita and india oilstone, I used to use a budget silicon carbide stone and a leather strop with some compound. Total cost - under a tenner, and it will last many many years.


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## D_W (5 Jun 2019)

johnnyb":16jpu3wh said:


> my mate is a lifetime pro woodworker and he uses a norton india and his hand as a strop. his main no 5 is a rapier thats been broken and welded.
> he does great. he laughs at all my fancy rubbish. but being a pro hes mostly electric. but does pay hand tools due respect.



What does "pro" mean? There are some historic -type woodworkers here in the states (museum employees or retirees from museums doing commission work) and they don't necessarily tend to be tool hounds, but most are using more classic sharpening routines and fairly fine tools (not expensive, but fine....well, to the extent that they do a lot of carving, they've got a lot of money wrapped up in carving tools, new and vintage). 

I like an india, it's a great stone, but it's not capable of good finish off of a plane for cabinetmaking or toolmaking. A washita will usually yield a good finish if it's been stropped (bare leather, or you can use compound, but just something to make sure the wire edge is gone) and a fine oilstone better. (not to mention the myriad of micron and submicron modern abrasive options). 

For someone doing joiner work or almost all of their planning to trim, then an india stone setup is probably fine (presume scraping and sanding follows). I know it's not that popular to finish off of a plane these days, despite the resurgence in hand tool woodworking. i know of exactly two professional woodworkers who do it, and the others use planes but finish with sandpaper.


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## D_W (5 Jun 2019)

I've lost track of the people who have gotten washitas. This topic came up on another forum and I pounded the ground about how great they are (i'm not responsible for most people having them, not claiming that, but did generate a lot of forum traffic for folks to go find their own) about four or five years ago and there was a brisk period of selling, but I dared to go onto the UK ebay site and saw 8 of them sell last week, none that I saw more than $40. 

If there was ever a useful step-up in cost with tools, I think it's going from sandpaper or an india (or generic coarse synthetic stone) to a washita. Most of what vexes new users with washitas is just learning how they like to be used and then getting rid of the wire edge without overworking an edge on compound. Once you get the hang with the stones, they are about the best thing since sliced bread for everything except A2 and japanese steel (japanese steel loves them if it's not full hardness, but most new japanese tools that say they're 65 and are in the higher cost ranges are actually 65 hardness, and beyond the washitas ability to do anything other than smudge their surfaces). 

I managed not to buy any of the washitas that went by ebay last week - they're a losing proposition for me coming from England due to the postage, but gosh, each time I see one that looks a little different than the ones I have, I want another one. 

The selection in the US is not as good, not nearly as many older unbranded stones and more recent manufacture behr manning stones that are ungraded (they just say "washita oilstone" on them). The later behr manning stones can be less good on average than the vintage stones. 

The washita has so much range that I've finished razors on one, which is something an 8k synthetic has trouble doing. It requires wire edge management with a barber's linen, and the right touch, but the quality of the edge that they leave is comfortable for shaving. Synthetic stones have to go really fine before they are. Like 1 micron size. 

Gotta stop talking about these or I'll be getting more.


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## johnnyb (5 Jun 2019)

by pro i mean hes 50 and been working in many branches of woodworking since leaving school at 16. mostly stuff is belt sanded in pro shops then orbital. 
really his skill is in numbers. hes remakably good at deciding how much stuff he needs from a quick measure. also hes great at doing stuff without instructions. he can just say look at a mechanism and with a bit of muttering see how it works and if it will fit. a remarkably useful skill.
hes got a great overall gauge eye as well. 
what i mean by all that stuff is experience, knowledge and a good natural feel goes much much further than "i can sharpen an edge tool" even being good with figures is more important.
sharpening threads are a pita


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## D_W (5 Jun 2019)

My mother is in the same group, I guess my father, too. They do smaller lower-cost stuff, but what they do doesn't resemble anything that I do with hand tools (probably for the better - their work is profitable). 

They have worn out two small bandsaws and two stationary belt sanders and are on their third of each. I can't profess to having ever worn out anything. 

A friend's dad (this friend is English, he's in the states but his dad stayed in england) was a Joiner, by trade. He had a very worn out block plane, smoother and record 5 1/2. My friend is an engineer and was always irritated with his dad's kit because he remembered him redoing the floors and other things in their own house and always doing it by hand (finish scraping, etc). 

When his dad died, he brought his tools back and threw most of them away. I still have two of the man's planes because the friend won't take them back, and in his tool box, he had a single carborundum stone and a washita. 15 years ago when he showed me this stuff (he's a waterstone adherent because that's what the catalogs and videos say you must have), and we thought maybe his dad didn't use any of those goods because the carborundum stone was badly dished and the washita stone "look at the charts, it's not fine enough to finish anything". 

Boy were we wrong. That washita stone went in the garbage. 

In a fit of experimentation, I made a cocobolo coffin smoother that I still use with nothing more than a stanley 4, a washita and chisels. I did fair the sides of it with coarse sandpaper after planing them to shape. There is very little that I do on a given day that requires more than the use of a washita. I pared the bevels on that plane (when you make planes, two of the bevels are always agreeable - the ones that are vertical when the plane's sitting, and two are always back against the grain). The against the grain cuts were the only cuts...on cocobolo...where I really wished for more than a washita sharpened edge. 

I think I made the plane faster than I would've if I'd have faffed with "all of the right tools" making it. 

Cocobolo turns out to make a crappy coffin smoother in some ways (the plane will belly behind the mouth from wedge pressure), but it was a good learning experience. I've not gone back to any synthetic stones or long regimens at this point. I have probably 100 sharpening stones of various types, from $1 to $750. Nothing on the top of my cabinet where I do my sharpening cost more than $40.


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## ED65 (9 Jun 2019)

timothyedoran":sbsa2ops said:


> Sorry to bring a tread back from the grave but I would love to know how your cheap AliExpress stone has lasted. Would you still recommend it?


Excellently. 

Couldn't recommend it more highly both for how well it works as a solo honing option (with or without stropping) and in terms of how durable it has proven itself to be. If I posted a fresh photo of it you'd be hard pressed to tell it hadn't been taken back when the thread was started.

Try not to pay more than £3 for it! There are various sellers flogging the same thing and the prices are all over the map including some with OTT shipping, but plenty selling it for under a fiver with free shipping.


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## woodbloke66 (9 Jun 2019)

D_W":291w96ub said:


> What does "pro" mean?


'Pro ' means professional which means he/or she gets paid for what they do and has nothing to do with the quality of the work produced. It may be excellent, indifferent or poor; the essential thing is that they are paid for their efforts - Rob


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## Trevanion (9 Jun 2019)

All I have to do is walk over yonder to ye olde slate quarry, pick up a flattish, smooth piece of genuine Welsh slate, douse it in a little water from the stream and you've got yerself a honing stone.

Cost all in: 200-yard exercise, nature's finest stream water.

You can't do much better!


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## Sideways (9 Jun 2019)

custard":2jfbbmk6 said:


> Anyone with a long enough woodworking memory will recall the dreadful "glass paper" that was still being sold into the 1990's; grit that fell off the paper and embedded itself in the workpiece, inconsistent grit size, backing paper that was forever tearing, and abrasive particles that went blunt after a few seconds of use. It's difficult to imagine such shoddy materials being of much use against tool steel. Comparing that with the amazingly effective abrasives available today is why I put sandpaper amongst the most important innovations of the past forty years.



I for one absolutely remember the awful glass paper you describe. Very poor as well as susceptible to damp and cracked and flaked every time you folded it.I remember the first time I ever bought and used garnet paper back in the late 80's. That was such a dramatic step up, as was Mirka's abranet the first time I used that - with a hand sanding block and extraction hose. Yes, abrasives have come a long way.


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## YoelD (10 Jun 2019)

Having now found my bench stone, what I have is:
Double sided oil stone of unknown provenance in a wooden box (bought with two previously rusted tenon saws at a boot sale, all for £1). Let's say roughly 34p.
Strip of leather from the leather shop run by someone my parents knew, stuck to a strip of wood: free. But needs replacing now.
Thick bit of glass ripped off of some cheap trophy: essentially free. This I use to wrap some paper round, clamp to a surface and use to flatten the stone.

A bargain until I added in a honing guide.


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## Jacob (10 Jun 2019)

If you dump the honing guide you won't need to flatten your stone and sharpening will be much quicker and easier.
Hardly anybody used them until the great boom in amateurs shopping for kit, in the 80s and after.


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## Ttrees (10 Jun 2019)

Those thin cheap plates are handy to have, I have the 400 and the 1000 grit, 
not that I use them very often, but they are worth having.
Most of the time I use them for other shop made tools like a screwdriver for carburetor jets.

The one time I do use them for woodworking, is when I hit some cement in the reclaimed iroko
I do get, 
No way of telling what's underneath the paint, and since the iroko is tearout prone, I need to use the cap iron closely set, to avoid the irritant dust you get from tearout.
The cap iron frequently gets damaged on my beater plane, and have to re-hone it.

I use the corner of the stone to create a small hollow on the underside, so I can finish it off on the rest of the stone
It would be a pain in the ar~e, using sandpaper and can be possibly problematic on an oil stone
if its not flat.
Normally in the swing of things removing paint, so don't want any problems half way through,
as cement contact is already one problem to deal with.

Gotta say for regular use the washita is great, I use a 40 quid mirror polish worn in 1800 diamond stone for finishing it off, if that stone could be got cheaper that would be my vote.
In the absence of that stone, maybe a superfine Ultex exists, obviously purchased on their half price once or twice a year sale, followed be a strop if needed?

Sharpening got a whole lot faster after ditching the guide, and the washita was actually..
_definitely as course as I needed, afterall_

What stone do you use Jacob?  


Tom


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## Jacob (10 Jun 2019)

Ttrees":11a3ir47 said:


> .....
> What stone do you use Jacob?
> 
> 
> Tom


Ive got a collection. Tried many options but generally settled with what I started out with - a double sided Norton for everything. The others are redundant though I'm always having a go on an experimental basis.
Recently flattened the face of an old Stanley 5 1/2 blade. Not something I normally would do but this one had been roughly "un-flattened" by previous owner using disc sander or something and was difficult to remove the burr without lifting it and creating a mini bevel on the face edge.
Tried flattening two ways, first on a coarse Ezelap diamond plate, then paper wet n dry 80 grit - just wetted down onto my planer table. The paper was very much faster. Just sayin!
If I had one choice (or recommendation for a beginner) it'd be the double sided norton. Even grinding is viable on the coarse side if you put the blade into a bit of a handle for more leverage and speed - a 10" piece of 3x1" with a saw kerf.
Dumping honing jigs was the big step forwards - everything is easier and faster - mainly because you can put more welly into it - full length of stone as fast and forceful as you can manage.
PS still have a use for a jig, fiddling with old tools - a quick 5 second pass at 30º with a very rusty old blade is diagnostic - it shows up where the bevel is on/off the angle


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## YoelD (11 Jun 2019)

Jacob":29z6ua43 said:


> If you dump the honing guide you won't need to flatten your stone and sharpening will be much quicker and easier.
> Hardly anybody used them until the great boom in amateurs shopping for kit, in the 80s and after.


In all honesty, I don't know why I bought it. I've only used it once. Got attracted by the shiny parts and marketing of the "precise angle". 8)


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## Osvaldd (11 Jun 2019)

I would really like to learn how to sharpen without the guide, but whenever I do that I always tend to raise the angle with every sharpening before it becomes too steep


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## Jacob (11 Jun 2019)

Osvaldd":2wyusba2 said:


> I would really like to learn how to sharpen without the guide, but whenever I do that I always tend to raise the angle with every sharpening before it becomes too steep


Sorry to state the obvious but try lowering the angle.
Put your chisel or plane iron on the stone at as near 30º as you can guess, then push it forwards but slightly lower it as you go. This results in a slightly rounded bevel (just like everybody used to do it) but with the edge not exceeding 30º.
It is extremely simple and very easy to do.


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## SammyQ (11 Jun 2019)

Popcorn! Popcorn!


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## YoelD (11 Jun 2019)

Osvaldd":3jgu4s9g said:


> I would really like to learn how to sharpen without the guide, but whenever I do that I always tend to raise the angle with every sharpening before it becomes too steep


Exactly how are you going about sharpening? Hand sharpening and keeping a pretty consistent secondary bevel isn't quite as difficult as it seems.
It might be down to the technique you use.


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## D_W (11 Jun 2019)

Osvaldd":37a5h9cz said:


> I would really like to learn how to sharpen without the guide, but whenever I do that I always tend to raise the angle with every sharpening before it becomes too steep



Just regrind often until you get a grasp on not stepping up the angle.


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## Ttrees (11 Jun 2019)

Having a bench grinder for starters, it will make any chance for errors drastically reduce.
No excuses for not having one!.. they're dirt cheap, have an induction motor that will last forever.

Depending on how much camber you use, it may play a part in this, but for me what worked starting with my lightly cambered irons, 
was honing with the blade sideways, facing the small bevel, honing to and away from me.
I could register at each end (corner) of the iron, instead of focusing on registering on the tippy hollow ground bevel.

The same principle as chopping mortises plum with a small square and a chisel,
In that you can see the bevel laying flat on the stone.


You cant really change the angle if your honing sideways, with not much camber.
By that, I mean creating a larger camber without wanting to....(nothing to do with your honing angle)

This gave me a new way of approaching sharpening, because I'm using a different method for reference now and it's a lot easier.
Imagine, like you were expecting someone to shake out your credit card with a vice grips either side of your hand,
Referencing on each end gives a different grasp to focus on and will aid muscle memory.


Two things about this method though.... if you have an oilstone, you will hollow it out, so it might be a good candidate for the diamond plates. 
And it takes a larger amount of strokes to hone an edge.

I don't skew or hone sideways now, just normally like everyone else, but have retained the important part, the knowledge of where to focus and hold the iron and can do any pattern of honing with any camber without changing the bevel angle.
even honing on a high spot is no problem.
Looking at a lot of folks now, I can see that same stance.

Tom


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## Osvaldd (11 Jun 2019)

Just need more practice and patience I guess. and resist the temptation to lift the chisel a degree or two to get quicker results...

@Ttrees I personally try to avoid powered tools after a nasty accident with a belt sander..


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## Ttrees (11 Jun 2019)

Osvaldd":12kghls4 said:


> Just need more practice and patience I guess. and resist the temptation to lift the chisel a degree or two to get quicker results...



Less patience in my view, and more of practicing the techniques of someone who gets it done efficiently.
As said, I can now see what I was missing by watching skilled folks from a different perspective.
Not saying these folks have identical techniques atall, but I see the way their honing style has a similar grasp by the way they're directing the force, not on to the bevel, but on the length of the iron, and using their shoulders.
(in my view, they might tell you otherwise)

David W, Bill Carter, and Rob Cosman, Yes, on waterstones, and honing in different circular patterns! What I see he has a similar grasping reference method, regardless of convincing you to buy thicker blades for more hollow grind reference area, I still see that side to side reference now.
More important than any hollow ground bevel reference, in my view.

Tom


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## ED65 (12 Jun 2019)

Osvaldd, you just need more practice. Virtually everyone freehand sharpening has been guilty of doing exactly what you're doing at one point. 

A faster honing surface helps, which is one reason I'm such a fan of diamond plates, but diamonds aren't at all necessary to prevent the problem. 

Try to actively notice how you're standing, how you're holding your wrists and arms and do careful repeat motions. Go slow if you need to. While some experienced guys hone really quickly if you can't while maintaining the proper angle then don't worry about it, it's not a race.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2019)

ED65":20dndwq6 said:


> Osvaldd, you just need more practice. Virtually everyone freehand sharpening has been guilty of doing exactly what you're doing at one point.


Yes "rounding over" is rightly deprecated. 
The cure is to aim instead at "rounding under", whereby you dip the handle or blade slightly as you go.
A bit like the advice to plane a straight edge on a board by aiming at a hollow scoop, rather than just planing flat and ending up with it rounded.
The modern sharpening "experts" are best ignored - the endless paraphernalia of gadgets, exotic stones, having to flatten everything, make it more difficult and much more expensive; they are just trying to make you buy stuff!


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## sploo (12 Jun 2019)

ED65":1ragn7to said:


> Osvaldd, you just need more practice. Virtually everyone freehand sharpening has been guilty of doing exactly what you're doing at one point.
> 
> A faster honing surface helps, which is one reason I'm such a fan of diamond plates, but diamonds aren't at all necessary to prevent the problem.
> 
> Try to actively notice how you're standing, how you're holding your wrists and arms and do careful repeat motions. Go slow if you need to. While some experienced guys hone really quickly if you can't while maintaining the proper angle then don't worry about it, it's not a race.


Indeed.

I could never get a chisel sharp on my old Norton India oil stone, but having started to get into handplanes I got some advice on freehand sharpening (and watched a few videos - e.g. Paul Sellers). Having started with the "scary sharp" system (i.e. abrasive paper on glass) I moved to a cheap set of diamond plates.

Some time ago I thought I'd just try the old oil stone again, and (surprise surprise) that also works too. Basically; watch some videos and practice (and be prepared to regrind the odd cheap chisel or plane blade when you fail the first few times). Once you've got the hang of it, freehand sharpening takes minutes (sometimes just seconds) and pretty much any abrasive surface will work - just choose the one you like to use.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2019)

Jacob":25ibk5uw said:


> ............
> The modern sharpening "experts" are best ignored - the endless paraphernalia of gadgets, exotic stones, having to flatten everything, make it more difficult and much more expensive; they are just trying to make you buy stuff!


I forgot to say - cutting and sharpening is a hobby with a lot of people, especially knives. Fine, as long as they don't go around stabbing people, or letting it hold up their vegetable slicing etc. But woodworkers don't need to be too obsessive if all they want to do is woodwork. Keep it simple - and cheap!
PS oil stones do need cleaning and refreshening or they clog up and stop working. I use a 3M Diapad because I've got one, but other things will do - e.g. stainless steel pan scrubber plus white spirit. A magnet is good for lifting off the swarf.


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## SammyQ (12 Jun 2019)

Nom! Nom! Nom! Lovely popcorn...Let me know when to join in with the chorus!  
Cue Animal Farm sheep bleating "Rounded bevels good, straight bevels baaaaad!" =D> 

Sam


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## sammy.se (27 Nov 2019)

I've taken the advice on this thread re diamond plates, cheap from Alibaba. 

Really happy with the result!! They cost me between £1.50 - £3 each, I bought a handful, different grits and a couple of different designs. Can't ask for much more really. They were delivered within 3 weeks.

I haven't stuck them to anything yet. I have some glass plate which I previously used for the wet n dry paper method. I may epoxy them to that, but for now, I just use them on a table top.

I'll post pics at some point. I did sharpen some kitchen knives was well - hair shaving sharpness achieved !

Really happy - a super sharpening solution for £10 all in!

Thanks ED65!

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (28 Nov 2019)

Osvaldd":3iativu6 said:


> Just need more practice and patience I guess. and resist the temptation to lift the chisel a degree or two to get quicker results...
> 
> @Ttrees I personally try to avoid powered tools after a nasty accident with a belt sander..


Yes that's it in a sentence. You have to wait for the burr to show (or to be felt) and if this seems slow maybe do more of a grind than a hone, on a coarser medium, but still without lifting the angle.


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## Osvaldd (28 Nov 2019)

@Jacob 

This was in June, I have now mastered sharpening and do most of it with one oil stone, feels good.


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## ED65 (28 Nov 2019)

Glad to hear they're working well for you Sammy. 

Now seems an ideal time for an update to the thread showing the current state of the plate:







Three years on and as mentioned in a few recent threads there's barely any change (except to the PVC sleeve, which is about to give up the ghost  ) and from what I can tell it cuts just as fast as it always did.


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## timothyedoran (6 Jan 2020)

Thanks for such a useful long term review. I hope this doesn't count as resurection of a zombie thread... Could anyone suggest an Amazon or eBay link to a UK seller for a set of stones please. I feel very guilty about postage for individual items from China. Yes I know that's where they are made.


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## D_W (6 Jan 2020)

Jacob":2c3qyway said:


> Jacob":2c3qyway said:
> 
> 
> > ............
> ...


 
Synthetics clog or load, but don't necessarily need anything if used in an oilbath - they'll slow down and probably not clog. 

The wear of this type on the natural stones is a virtue, though. The fine oilstones aren't particularly fine unless they're allowed to settle in like this. They don't clog if used with a non-drying oil, but the air space on something like a black arkansas stone of fine quality is generally a percent or less. If it approaches 2-3%, there will be visible pores on the stone.


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## D_W (6 Jan 2020)

timothyedoran":1qd0wq6s said:


> Thanks for such a useful long term review. I hope this doesn't count as resurection of a zombie thread... Could anyone suggest an Amazon or eBay link to a UK seller for a set of stones please. I feel very guilty about postage for individual items from China. Yes I know that's where they are made.



The DMD stones are likely the same or similar spec to ultex, etc. If you find someone selling a double sided milled steel diamond plate in the UK for 25 pounds or less, it'll be the same thing. I've not had any that lack durability. Some may lack flatness, but not to an extent that they're unusable for honing - just very minor undulations. Very good quality for the price.


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2020)

D_W":2dnr0fb3 said:


> Jacob":2dnr0fb3 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":2dnr0fb3 said:
> ...


It seems to be bits of wire edge itself which cause a slight prob - they get embedded.
I never got around to an oil bath as I did a lot of site work - hence reliance on double sided stone and a squeezy can of oil, which is really all I use, in or out of the shop*. Got lots of other stones and stuff in a drawer though (including first I ever bought in about 1960 - a bit coarse but going strong!) I drag things out for an occasional go but they are mostly redundant. Might do a clear out and sell them. Black and White Arkansas stones anyone?
* PS and must be the answer to the OP's question: cheapest honing setup **buying new only**? Last for life, 2 or 3 quids worth of oil per annum.


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## ED65 (7 Jan 2020)

timothyedoran":26fotnbd said:


> Could anyone suggest an Amazon or eBay link to a UK seller for a set of stones please. I feel very guilty about postage for individual items from China. Yes I know that's where they are made.


You'll just be paying more for the much the same thing; if the products look identical it might even be exactly the same thing. You're not adding carbon miles or anything like that ordering directly from a Chinese seller, the stuff has to come from China anyway so does it matter if it's in the post or in a shipping container? The planes and ships are heading this way anyway after all.

Now as to a set, you probably don't need one. Everything in between very coarse and very fine is of almost no usefulness for routine sharpening duties; it's different in other media, where the finer surfaces tend to cut more slowly, but diamonds aren't those. I have no difficulty in going from 150 straight to 1,000 and you won't either, which makes everything in the approximate range 250 to 800 basically irrelevant. 

They are so cheap from China you could get one or two of the middling ones anyway, but I promise you you don't need it/them for day-to-day honing and will have little or no use for 'em in a broader sharpening context.


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