# Nearly put this in the joke thread



## Cabinetman (17 Dec 2021)

And again, the people that actually pay for the road are being shunted further and further down the list of the ones able to use it. I can see this causing no end of accidents and bad feelings, particularly with cyclists. 
Reproduced from the Telegraph.


----------



## doctor Bob (17 Dec 2021)

Not a cyclist, given state of roads I can't blame them riding in the middle of the road. My objection is to pelotons of large groups, my record was following one group (30 odd) at 15mph for 7 miles. Eventually they pulled into a tea room and I also stopped to ask if they realised the traffic chaos they caused, I was not expecting the volley of abuse I received from a group of middle aged cyclists to a fairly civil question. Now I think they are all tw!ts
Is there a rule to be brought in that cyclists have to stop at red traffic lights (at present it seems red to cyclists means just ride through them) I'd like that.


----------



## paulrbarnard (17 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> And again, the people that actually pay for the road are being shunted further and further down the list of the ones able to use it. I can see this causing no end of accidents and bad feelings, particularly with cyclists.
> Reproduced from the Telegraph.
> View attachment 124465


Everyone who pays tax pays for the roads…


----------



## Jameshow (17 Dec 2021)

Like many on here, I'm a keen cyclist and riding in the gutter us dangerous. I ride approx a meter out beyond the manhole covers, puddles etc.

However what does wind me up is the big chain gangs of riders who ride 2 abreast without any thought for the massive queue of drivers behind


----------



## sploo (17 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> And again, the people that actually pay for the road are being shunted further and further down the list of the ones able to use it.


*polite cough* It's Vehicle Excise Duty, not road tax; you're paying a fee based on the mass/size/pollution level of the vehicle.

TBH I always thought the rule at junctions was that a pedestrian crossing the road had priority. In any case, if a driver just swings into a junction with a pedestrian walking towards the road there's a decent chance they'll get a soft squishy bonnet (US: hood) ornament, so really need to be paying attention regardless.

As for riding away from the kerb; unfortunately the sheer number of pot holes and sunken drains present on many roads makes it pretty lethal to ride a bike close to the kerb.

All that said; cars and cyclists really don't mix well on roads - it's no good for either user, as the differing speeds and movement patterns just makes everyone angry with everyone else. Separate cycle lines would be much better for all.


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

It's safer for a group to stick together in a tight bunch, even two abreast, because it actually aids overtaking. You just have to overtake one large but slow moving "vehicle" when it's safe to do so, rather than a string of individual slow moving vehicles stretched out down the road. 
It may not feel like it but it is true.


----------



## Cabinetman (17 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Everyone who pays tax pays for the roads…


 Yes Sploo you are correct of course. 
You may be correct in that it isn’t apportioned, but vehicle excise duty pays for the roads many times over without dipping into general taxation.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (17 Dec 2021)

Popcorn time.


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Everyone who pays tax pays for the roads…


Indeed.

Those who pollute the most and take up an unfair amount of space by driving metal boxes, should be classed as the lowest form of road/pavement user.


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Yes Sploo you are correct of course.
> You may be correct in that it isn’t apportioned, but vehicle excise duty pays for the roads many times over without dipping into general taxation.


No it doesn't. It all goes into the same pot. It is not "hypothecated". It is just another bit of "general taxation".


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

sploo said:


> ....
> 
> All that said; cars and cyclists really don't mix well on roads - it's no good for either user, as the differing speeds and movement patterns just makes everyone angry with everyone else. Separate cycle lines would be much better for all.


Maybe the driving test should include a cycling test too - make all learners do a few hundred miles on a bike and get tested on it.
Your licence includes a list of what you can and can't drive, e.g. separate tests for HGVs and motor bikes. Maybe a restricted licence for those can't get to grips with bicycles.


----------



## TRITON (17 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> And again, the people that actually pay for the road are being shunted further and further down the list of the ones able to use it. I can see this causing no end of accidents and bad feelings, particularly with cyclists.


Utter nonsense, and I'd have thought you a bit more sensible to be spouting such.
We all pay for the roads everyone. It's taken from general taxation.
Saying its from 'vehicle excise duty' is a strawman argument.


So let's do a bit of "apportioning"
Cars alone kill an average of 3 cyclists per week here int he UK, and injures about 20
And as to who causes the damage to the roads, as well as life and limb,its the car that holds the record.

Cyclists produce little to no pollution, and well I think we al know the biggest culprits there.

But please continue with your little tantrum



Jameshow said:


> However what does wind me up is the big chain gangs of riders who ride 2 abreast without any thought for the massive queue of drivers behind



2 abreast is pretty much the equivalent width of a car, or if slightly wider, then a truck or a bus.
So why not blame buses or trucks for a build up of traffic. OR even ask yourself why it isnt safe to overtake. Could it possibly be that the high proportion of other cars,buses and trucks on the road are preventing it ?. 
And since when do we see huge lines of build up traffic caught up behind buses ?, well obviously we dont. Drivers behind pick a safe time and overtake, and having 2 cyclists riding abreast is exactly the same. To be the equivalent of a bus you would need a group of 10 cyclists, and how often do we see groups of ten cyclists riding along city streets ?, yet again obviously we dont, so you are referring to a rare occurrence out on country roads, and not something that happens every day.

Really  I thought intelligent people used these boards, but im now beginning to wonder


----------



## doctor Bob (17 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> So let's do a bit of "apportioning"
> Cars alone kill an average of 3 cyclists per week here int he UK, and injures about 20
> And as to who causes the damage to the roads, as well as life and limb,its the car that holds the record.



I think we have to do a bit of "apportioning", I assume some cyclists cause their own demise through poor riding. I know someone who had an accident with a cyclist who died, he was not to blame according to the courts and would still be mortified to be considered a cyclist killer as per your terminology.


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I think we have to do a bit of "apportioning", I assume some cyclists cause their own demise through poor riding.











Common Causes Of Cycling Accidents - Accident Claims Advice


Lack of road awareness, failure to judge the speed or distance of the cyclist, the inability of drivers to see cyclists properly and general rash or negligent behaviour, are some of the major reasons why cycling accidents happen.




www.accidentclaimsadvice.org.uk




Some cycle off the edge of cliffs etc but mostly we are talking about collisions with other vehicles:

_Lack of road awareness, failure to judge the speed or distance of the cyclist, the inability of drivers to see cyclists properly and general rash or negligent behaviour, are some of the major reasons why cycling accidents happen._


----------



## doctor Bob (17 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Common Causes Of Cycling Accidents - Accident Claims Advice
> 
> 
> Lack of road awareness, failure to judge the speed or distance of the cyclist, the inability of drivers to see cyclists properly and general rash or negligent behaviour, are some of the major reasons why cycling accidents happen.
> ...



of course, but some are killed on the roads with no car driver error.


----------



## TRITON (17 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I know someone who had an accident with a cyclist who died, he was not to blame according to the courts and would still be mortified to be considered a cyclist killer as per your terminology.


Oh please


----------



## doctor Bob (17 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Oh please


----------



## doctor Bob (17 Dec 2021)

I have no wish to argue with anyone. I'm out


----------



## TRITON (17 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I'm out



Possibly have thought more before posting eh


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> of course, but some are killed on the roads with no car driver error.


In that case there is no driver issue.


----------



## doctor Bob (17 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Possibly have thought more before posting eh


And a happy Christmas to you as well.


----------



## doctor Bob (17 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> In that case there is no driver issue.


Have a good Christmas Jacob.


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Have a good Christmas Jacob.


You too Bob.


----------



## Spectric (17 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Is there a rule to be brought in that cyclists have to stop at red traffic lights (at present it seems red to cyclists means just ride through them) I'd like that.


I don't think that cyclist have to obey the highway code, they don't need insurance or road tax and have no MOT's, they certainly believe they own the roads and that everyone else just gets in their way. 

Perhaps these new rules were created by someone who really hates cyclist because it is certainly going to thin them out. As the new electric bikes become more common then is it not time to class them as a motorised vehicle, now they will need insurance and have to obey the highway code and maybe a driving test.


----------



## Ozi (17 Dec 2021)

Just off to get my pop corn but before I go can I add horses.


----------



## TRITON (17 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> You too Bob.



Ditto

And a very merry Christmas to you Jacob


----------



## TRITON (17 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> I don't think that cyclist have to obey the highway code, they don't need insurance or road tax and have no MOT's, they certainly believe they own the roads and that everyone else just gets in their way.
> 
> Perhaps these new rules were created by someone who really hates cyclist because it is certainly going to thin them out. As the new electric bikes become more common then is it not time to class them as a motorised vehicle, now they will need insurance and have to obey the highway code and maybe a driving test.


Cyclists like everyone else do have to follow the highway code in its majority. Although there are some aspects that suggest, the difference being either 'You MUST' or 'You SHOULD' being the only grey area.


----------



## Doug71 (17 Dec 2021)

Seems to be a bit of a cycling hot spot around my village, over just the last few weeks I have witnessed the following.

Followed 2 bikes along the winding roads for about 2 miles, about 6 cars behind me. Finally got to a spot where it was safe to overtake just before a small single file bridge with traffic lights on. The lights were on red so all the cars stopped, the cyclists proceeded to overtake all the cars and sit at the front of the lights, had to follow them for about another 2 miles before another suitable overtaking spot 

Followed a group of about 12 blokes who seemed to know what they were doing as they were really shifting. All went wrong when the two at the front turned left down a sideroad, the rest must not have realised they were turning as the next two ran into them, domino effect leading to a big pile of people and bikes in the middle of the road 

Followed 8 larger ladies who looked like they had never ridden bikes before, they were all over the place. The front two turned right straight across the oncoming traffic, the next two followed them but then thought about it and ending up stopping in the middle of the wrong side of the road, an oncoming car had to brake really hard to avoid them. One of the ladies seemed to forget to put her feet down when she stopped and just fell sideways. Much drama ensued as they all picked her up 

I have nothing against cyclists who know what they are doing but there are a lot out there who would be better off getting a different hobby.


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> I don't think that cyclist have to obey the highway code, they don't need insurance or road tax and have no MOT's, they certainly believe they own the roads and that everyone else just gets in their way.
> 
> Perhaps these new rules were created by someone who really hates cyclist because it is certainly going to thin them out. As the new electric bikes become more common then is it not time to class them as a motorised vehicle, now they will need insurance and have to obey the highway code and maybe a driving test.


Quite frankly, you'd be daft to ride a bike which wasn't roadworthy or not have insurance. As for road tax, it doesn't exist, and that just shows your lack of knowledge.


----------



## TRITON (17 Dec 2021)

Doug71 said:


> The lights were on red so all the cars stopped, the cyclists proceeded to overtake all the cars and sit at the front of the lights, had to follow them for about another 2 miles before another suitable overtaking spot


Thats not something i would do, although it is in the highway code. I prefer to either stay in lane or in that scenario happily sit at the back knowing its going to end up in the same thing with the traffic waiting for an overtake spot.
Clearly you were faced with a couple of entitled idiots.


Doug71 said:


> Followed 8 larger ladies who looked like they had never ridden bikes before, they were all over the place. The front two turned right straight across the oncoming traffic, the next two followed them but then thought about it and ending up stopping in the middle of the wrong side of the road, an oncoming car had to brake really hard to avoid them. One of the ladies seemed to forget to put her feet down when she stopped and just fell sideways. Much drama ensued as they all picked her up


Unfortunately there are a greater amount of cyclist s on the road today who clearly haven't a clue, nor the brains to think through their situation.
Crossing over oncoming traffic is the exact same as a car or anything doing it. Its just a matter of timing and making sure there's A. enough space between cars to get around safely, and B. the road ahead is clear so you arent forced into an emergency stop , relying then on the oncoming vehicle to take action itself.
But that said, vehicles like cars and especially taxis do cross oncoming and its not clear ahead, and if it causing the oncoming traffic to slow to a stop, nobody should be getting hot under the collar because of it. Patience is as they say a virtue.


----------



## Jameshow (17 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Utter nonsense, and I'd have thought you a bit more sensible to be spouting such.
> We all pay for the roads everyone. It's taken from general taxation.
> Saying its from 'vehicle excise duty' is a strawman argument.
> 
> ...


Buses don't generally puddle along at 15-20mph. Tractors doing 30mph generally have the courtesy to pull over and let the traffic past.

We get groups of 20-30 out regularly slowing down traffic on the a65....

I am a roadie myself but some do go out of there way to wind up drivers!


----------



## Vann (17 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> ...but vehicle excise duty pays for the roads many times over without dipping into general taxation.



Are you suggesting tobacco taxes should only be spent on developing better tobacco (or maybe better facilities for smokers)?

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Vann (17 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> ...Those who pollute the most and take up an unfair amount of space by driving metal boxes, should be classed as the lowest form of road/pavement user.



I agree. And you haven't mentioned NHS costs to treat obesity in those who drive everywhere instead of exercising. 

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Cabinetman (17 Dec 2021)

In these difficult times it seems we should all be helping to keep the treasury topped up and I hadn’t realised till Triton pointed it out that apart from a bit of vat on new purchases cyclists don’t contribute at all. Now it wouldn’t be fair to tax children or people who need a bike to get to work or to the shops but I’m sure it wouldn’t be too difficult to focus on the racing fraternity- who can obviously afford it from the way they spend - a Lycra tax? Or something more specific, how about those shoes with the cleats on.


----------



## Cabinetman (17 Dec 2021)

Vann said:


> I agree. And you haven't mentioned NHS costs to treat obesity in those who drive everywhere instead of exercising.
> 
> Cheers, Vann.


Knees and hips?


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Knees and hips?



?


----------



## Cabinetman (17 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> ?


Referring to NHS costs for cyclists, and in my case wrists and thumbs knackered by cycling.


----------



## JSW (17 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> And since when do we see huge lines of build up traffic caught up behind buses ?, well obviously we dont. Drivers behind pick a safe time and overtake, and having 2 cyclists riding abreast is exactly the same.



No it isn't the same, buses stop/pull over to let passengers on/off. When was the last time cyclists did the same?


----------



## Fitzroy (17 Dec 2021)

Why are cyclist vs driver conversations always so argumentative. It’s a shared space where we should treat each other with respect. Both sides have their fair share of twits who wind others up with a lack consideration. But drivers wind each other up, just watch the dodgy driver videos, as do cyclists. I like to shout at my fellow cyclists who ignore red lights, as it gives drivers ammunition to aim at me even if I’m considerate. 

I thinks it’s a tribal thing and also a very British thing, we see cyclists as queue jumpers and that’s just not cricket!


----------



## Cabinetman (17 Dec 2021)

Oh heck Fitzroy don’t bring cricket into it! I mentioned cyclists and look what happened.


----------



## Vann (17 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Knees and hips?



Knees and hips are just as likely to need attention in the obese (= intolerant car drivers ) as in cyclists. Now, if you'd said broken bones and lacerations...

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## baldkev (17 Dec 2021)

Here in devon there's lots of lycra clad rolling roadblocks 
Lots of potholes too


----------



## TRITON (17 Dec 2021)

JSW said:


> No it isn't the same, buses stop/pull over to let passengers on/off. When was the last time cyclists did the same?


You're relying on buses stopping at each and every stop, And as buses can go quite a number without stopping, it kind of smacks of a bit of a silly comment.
But even then, even a bus stopping takes up so much of a single lane you would need to cross the white line to overtake, something which you seem to be suggesting is impossible with a cyclist.

And on that note the entire silliness about cyclist riding 2 abreast isnt normal on main roads, 99.9% of the time they are single file.

.


Cabinetman said:


> I mentioned cyclists and look what happened.


No, what you said was very clear and well on point. It was Dr Booby who broke it.



Fitzroy said:


> I like to shout at my fellow cyclists who ignore red lights


Yeah, me too, and usually along with a shake of the head and eyes raised to heaven. And for the same reasons. Its one of those things motorists really really hate, mainly because they wish they could get away with doing it too, but thats just part of the human condition and nothing to do with them being fine upstanding members of the community who would never ever dream of breaking the law of the road 

I did see one cyclist a year or so ago. He was at the front and rather than wait the few seconds, took a chance and went across a cross road junction. I was in the inside lane one back(also on the bike). To the right of my and 2 back in the outside lane was a police car  He clearly hadn't seen it, but they saw him and when the lights changed i held back and watched them go after him. That brightened up my day and other car drivers who caught the action.
When I did pass,he didnt look that happy


----------



## paulrbarnard (17 Dec 2021)

Oh heck I own a car and a bike. Looks like some think I should pay twice. And of course I’m licensed to drive a car so have past a test to say I am competent on the roads despite the perceived wisdom being cyclist don’t know the rules of the road. I think you will find the vast majority of cyclists, of the Lycra clad ilk, are in a similar situation to me.


----------



## sploo (17 Dec 2021)

Fitzroy said:


> Why are cyclist vs driver conversations always so argumentative. It’s a shared space where we should treat each other with respect. Both sides have their fair share of twits who wind others up with a lack consideration. But drivers wind each other up, just watch the dodgy driver videos, as do cyclists. I like to shout at my fellow cyclists who ignore red lights, as it gives drivers ammunition to aim at me even if I’m considerate.
> 
> I thinks it’s a tribal thing and also a very British thing, we see cyclists as queue jumpers and that’s just not cricket!


Absolutely agree.

The problem with car drivers, cyclists, motorcyclists, walkers... frankly everyone is... they're people; and, let's be honest - people are bl**dy awful.

OK, I'm being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but the reality is that just about any road user will have encountered the ignorant, the inept, the aggressive, the selfish, and the downright dangerous; regardless of the form of transport. The common denominator isn't the type of transport; it's people.


----------



## JSW (17 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> And since when do we see huge lines of build up traffic caught up behind buses ?, well obviously we dont. Drivers behind pick a safe time and overtake, and having 2 cyclists riding abreast is exactly the same.





TRITON said:


> You're relying on buses stopping at each and every stop, And as buses can go quite a number without stopping, it kind of smacks of a bit of a silly comment.
> But even then, even a bus stopping takes up so much of a single lane you would need to cross the white line to overtake, something which you seem to be suggesting is impossible with a cyclist.


Arguing with yourself there pal


----------



## TRITON (18 Dec 2021)

JSW said:


> Arguing with yourself there pal


No not really
As to damning your nonsense, yup nailed that..


----------



## Fergie 307 (18 Dec 2021)

Dear oh dear. Can't we just accept that all have every right to be on the road and try to get along? The fact is there are inconsiderate, selfish individuals in every group, be it horse riders, cyclists or car drivers. Most however are perfectly reasonable. It is unfortunate that road rage is a very real phenomenon, which causes people to behave in ways they wouldn't dream of in other circumstances, so relatively trivial incidents can escalate out of all proportion. As a motorcyclist I have seen riders kick dents in cars for some perceived lack of consideration, and car drivers who will take any measures to prevent a bike making progress through traffic, even at the risk of taking the rider out. I am sure no one would want to beat the queue jumper in Sainsbury's to death with a tin of beans, so why they find this sort of behaviour acceptable on the road is quite beyond me.


----------



## ian33a (18 Dec 2021)

As a keen cyclist as well as an avid car driver I really wish every* road user* could be _forced _to ride a bike and drive a car on a variety of British roads for at least 100 miles. Not necessarily in one go, just over a variety of them. Perhaps then everyone might appreciate the difficulties that each faces. 

The country is littered with idiots who think they own the road, be in using motorised transport or pedal power. Equally, it is littered with people of all transport types who don't deserve to be allowed to use the road. For the majority, it's all about getting from A to B as well as getting along and being safe.

I ride on my own as well as in a club. Highway code rule 66 advocates riding up to two abreast and British Cycling even recommends riding that way - the reason being for safety (as a mass) and also to reduce the length of a riding train making motorised vehicle overtaking easier, albeit with less opportunity. Always though, only where road conditions permit it. Overtaking close to a cyclist is about the most dangerous thing any _road user_ can do. General guidelines suggest leaving 1.5 metres between a cycle and the overtaking vehicle, irrespective of what it is. That way, singly or two abreast, overtaking becomes a decisive planned manoeuvre rather than a last minute opportunity.

There are two recommended cycling positions when riding on the road, primary and secondary. Primary is in the middle of the lane and secondary is about a metre from the kerb. It is considered dangerous to be less than 0.5 metre from the kerb and most of us ride secondary in our club. That way other road users notice us and it takes some consideration to overtake. Primary isn't generally used, aside from a two abreast formation. Having these positions gives a cyclist some latitude to move around on the road - why? because of road surface deformities:

When I driving around on super wide low profile tyres my only real concern is damaging my wheels and tyres on potholes. If I ride a bike, any surface deformity is a potential safety risk. With 28mm wide tyres (and many have much skinnier tyres than me) any crack, edge of a drain cover, small hole, badly done tarmac patch and, of course, pot hole , is an opportunity to chuck a cyclist off their bike. A wet drain cover is a skid risk. A gutter, taken at the wrong angle, can kill. Hitting a kerb at speed can do the same. This is the main reason why cyclists appear to be weaving around. Riding needs mental agility constantly - not just to make progress forward and to avoid other road users - but primarily to remain cycling forward while avoiding road deformities. Remember also, many of us serious cyclists are averaging 16 to 20 MPH - this takes lightening reflexes and a huge amount of road surface visual processing.

I do my best to be sensible and sensitive when on the road. I also do my best to be non confrontational when other road users are than less sensitive to me - irrespective of what I am driving in or riding on. I do, however, appreciate that I sometimes upset other road users and I know, for sure, that plenty of other road users upset me - be it on a bike or in my car. It's not deliberate but it happens. 

As to the graphic that the OP presented, it's probably no different to what most large European cities already have. I remember 30 years ago, when I was a car driver and resident in Munich, when I turned into a side road, I had to watch for 1) the tram, 2) the cycle lane 3) the pedestrian lane 4) other cars. If nothing else, it made me more road user aware, and that has to be a good thing. 


Be safe, everyone.


----------



## penyrolewen (18 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Utter nonsense, and I'd have thought you a bit more sensible to be spouting such.
> We all pay for the roads everyone. It's taken from general taxation.
> Saying its from 'vehicle excise duty' is a strawman argument.
> 
> ...


Well, I’m a cyclist and I can see merit in all these points of view. 
I live in rural Devon and cyclists cause a lot of problems. On narrow, single carriageway, national speed limit A roads cyclists can cause long queues of traffic at 10mph or so which can be very dangerous. People get impatient and try to overtake when it’s not safe - for them, oncoming traffic or the cyclist. Groups of cyclists make this worse. 
As for traffic building up behind buses, lorries, caravans - yes, that does happen but it’s a)not as slow and b) it’s harder to overtake so less risky manoeuvres are trued.
Particularly irritating is cyclists on the road when there is a cycle path literally next to the road. I’ve asked people about why they do this and have been told that they don’t like using cycle paths because pedestrians get in the way! 
I agree with rules to make cyclists and pedestrians safer but there should be enforceable and enforced rules for cyclists too


----------



## Rodpr (18 Dec 2021)

Like many cyclists I also have a car for which I pay road tax. When I get 'stuck' behind a cyclist the reason I can't overtake is usually cars coming the other way.


----------



## Jacob (18 Dec 2021)

Doug71 said:


> .....
> 
> Followed 2 bikes along the winding roads for about 2 miles, about 6 cars behind me. Finally got to a spot where it was safe to overtake just before a small single file bridge with traffic lights on. The lights were on red so all the cars stopped, the cyclists proceeded to overtake all the cars and sit at the front of the lights, had to follow them for about another 2 miles before another suitable overtaking spot


Normal. Motor bikes do it too. A lot of traffic lights have a marked up space at the front for bikes. There's at least one very good reason this in that cyclists are slow and if not at the front of a queue they may get caught out half between lights changing and find an irritated driver coming towards them. I've even had to stop and explain to one red faced berk that the lights were green when I set off. Some of them are really keen on being offensive to cyclists.


> ....
> 
> I have nothing against cyclists who know what they are doing but there are a lot out there who would be better off getting a different hobby.


Ditto with drivers. Many really need some form of bike training. Those who can't cope with alternative road users should perhaps lose their licences.


----------



## Oakay (18 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> And again, the people that actually pay for the road are being shunted further and further down the list of the ones able to use it. I can see this causing no end of accidents and bad feelings, particularly with cyclists.
> Reproduced from the Telegraph.
> View attachment 124465


As over the years there has been a continuous increase of cars, vans and lorries, it is becoming harder and harder to safely be a cyclist or a pedestrian. There are far too many inconsiderate drivers, even at pedestrian (zebra) crossings. It is good that drivers are being forced by law to respect slower forms of travelling, especially as some have various disabilities. So many selfish drivers out there who could in many cases be pedestrians or cyclists themselves if they weren't so lazy and thoughtless.


----------



## paulrbarnard (18 Dec 2021)

penyrolewen said:


> Particularly irritating is cyclists on the road when there is a cycle path literally next to the road. I’ve asked people about why they do this and have been told that they don’t like using cycle paths because pedestrians get in the way!


Try riding a high performance road bike along a typical cycle path and if you still have teeth left at the end of it you have found the 1% of good cycle paths in the U.K. Pedestrians can be an annoyance, for the same reasons cars get upset at bikes (they get in the way and slow you down), but they have every right to be there so I suck it up. Even the painted lanes at the edge of a main carriageway can be a problem as they don’t get swept by vehicle tires so have all kinds of puncture or crash inducing stuff all over them.


----------



## Jacob (18 Dec 2021)

penyrolewen said:


> Well, I’m a cyclist and I can see merit in all these points of view.
> I live in rural Devon and cyclists cause a lot of problems. On narrow, single carriageway, national speed limit A roads cyclists can cause long queues of traffic at 10mph or so which can be very dangerous. People get impatient and try to overtake when it’s not safe - for them, oncoming traffic or the cyclist. Groups of cyclists make this worse.


Groups of cyclists make things better - you only have to overtake one group rather than each one of them separately strung out down the road


> As for traffic building up behind buses, lorries, caravans - yes, that does happen but it’s a)not as slow and b) it’s harder to overtake so less risky manoeuvres are trued.
> Particularly irritating is cyclists on the road when there is a cycle path literally next to the road. I’ve asked people about why they do this and have been told that they don’t like using cycle paths because pedestrians get in the way!


Many cycle facilities are an absolute farce and are best avoided Cycle Facility of the Month It's perfectly legal to avoid them too, unless there is a specific prohibition on cycling on the road


> I agree with rules to make cyclists and pedestrians safer but there should be enforceable and enforced rules for cyclists too


There are.


----------



## Oakay (18 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Normal. Motor bikes do it too. A lot of traffic lights have a marked up space at the front for bikes. There's at least one very good reason this in that cyclists are slow and if not at the front of a queue they may get caught out half between lights changing and find an irritated driver coming towards them. I've even had to stop and explain to one red faced berk that the lights were green when I set offDitto with drivers. Many really need some form of bike training. Those who can't cope with alternative road users should perhaps lose their licences.
> View attachment 124491


Love that cartoon.


----------



## Ozi (18 Dec 2021)

When I was very young there was an old man who used to cycle around the village delivering shoes he had mended. his bike had a very interesting attachment - to me at about 5 - the back wheel lifted on a stand then two grind stones could be engaged and he would sharpen knifes. 

Now gents I trying very hard here, I've introduced Horses and now sharpening to this tread - this should have been enough to get this thread banned by now


----------



## Jacob (18 Dec 2021)

Cycle Facility of the Month


Some of them are hilarious, others just moronic. This dull sort of thing is most typical we've all seen them:


----------



## sploo (18 Dec 2021)

Ozi said:


> Now gents I trying very hard here, I've introduced Horses and now sharpening to this tread - this should have been enough to get this thread banned by now


If you can say something about his political beliefs I think you'll have nailed it. Or you could at least shout "Bingo!"


----------



## Keith Cocker (18 Dec 2021)

I just think seriously cyclists are hilarious. Who in their right minds would dress the way they do - particularly the men! Ugh!!!

Being serious though when I was a kid I went to “National Cycling Proficiency “ classes. They were very popular. I still have my triangular badge from passing the tests. An adult version seems a good idea.


----------



## Jonm (18 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> And as to who causes the damage to the roads, as well as life and limb,its the car that holds the record.


 I basically agree with you. Just one point and sorry to nitpick. The road pavement is designed for goods vehicles. Cars do not come in to the design calculation. Note “pavement” in this context refers to the actual road construction, the bit you drive on not the bit you walk on.





CD 224 - Traffic assessment - DMRB


Design Manual for Roads and Bridges




www.standardsforhighways.co.uk




page 6

_Design traffic
The commercial vehicle loading over the design period of a pavement. It is expressed as the number of equivalent 80kN standard axles._


----------



## stuart little (18 Dec 2021)

Ozi said:


> Just off to get my pop corn but before I go can I add horses.


At his time of year, reindeer too!   [couldn't find one, so this will have to do]. I did once see a camel grazing at the roadside in France.


----------



## stuart little (18 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Buses don't generally puddle along at 15-20mph. Tractors doing 30mph generally have the courtesy to pull over and let the traffic past.
> 
> We get groups of 20-30 out regularly slowing down traffic on the a65....
> 
> I am a roadie myself but some do go out of there way to wind up drivers!


Tractor/agriculture vehicle drivers seem to be getting more & more bolshie in NOT pulling over, I've followed many for miles, passing plenty of pull-ins.


----------



## paul-c (18 Dec 2021)

borrowed from elsewhere


*The bicycle is the slow death of the planet.*

General Director of Euro Exim Bank Ltd. got economists thinking when he said:

“A cyclist is a disaster for the country’s economy: he does not buy cars and does not borrow money to buy. He does not pay for insurance policies. He does not buy fuel, does not pay for the necessary maintenance and repairs. He does not use paid parking. He does not cause serious accidents. He does not require multi-lane highways. He does not get fat.
Healthy people are neither needed nor useful for the economy. They don’t buy medicine. They do not go to hospitals or doctors. Nothing is added to the country’s GDP (gross domestic product).
On the contrary, every new McDonald’s restaurant creates at least 30 jobs: 10 cardiologists, 10 dentists, 10 dietary experts and nutritionists, and obviously, people who work at the restaurant itself.”

Choose carefully: cyclist or McDonald’s? It is worth considering.

P.S. Walking is even worse. Pedestrians don’t even buy bicycles.

i'll get my coat


----------



## stuart little (18 Dec 2021)

sploo said:


> Absolutely agree.
> 
> The problem with car drivers, cyclists, motorcyclists, walkers... frankly everyone is... they're people; and, let's be honest - people are bl**dy awful.
> 
> OK, I'm being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but the reality is that just about any road user will have encountered the ignorant, the inept, the aggressive, the selfish, and the downright dangerous; regardless of the form of transport. The common denominator isn't the type of transport; it's people.


"There's none so queer as folk!"


----------



## Spectric (18 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> As for road tax, it doesn't exist,


I think you either don't have a car or are just lucky to get away with it, especially in London with that very efficient metropolitan police force.

Try this link if you don't believe road tax is still around Tax your vehicle


----------



## sirocosm (18 Dec 2021)

The "new rules" are not new at all. Cyclists always had the right to "take the lane" and pedestrians have priority at junctions the minute they step off the curb. It should rather read "old habits" and "new rules". I hope they enforce them. The UK is the only country I have lived in where pedestrians have to jump out of the way of cars speeding around corners at junctions. In most places the pedestrian has priority at junctions, if the street they are walking on does. Raised in Canada, we were taught never to cross in the middle of the street, as it was dangerous. Here it is almost impossible to cross safely at junctions.

It is about time that pedestrians and cyclists get what they pay for. Our "road tax" is not a road tax at all, it is an environmental tax, and it does not pay for the roads. The roads are mostly paid for by general taxation. So pedestrian and cyclists pay just as much for the roads as anyone and do far less damage, so they are subsidizing cars.


----------



## Jonm (18 Dec 2021)

The original newspaper article is about making road users aware of the new rules. It contains a simplification of the rules relating to pedestrians and vehicles turning.

This is the 2013 impression of the Highway Code.

https://www.broughtonschoolofmotoring.com/wp-content/uploads/Highway-Code-pdf.compressed.pdf
_Rules for Pedestrians. Page 8, rule 8
At a junction. When crossing the road, look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you. If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way (see Rule 170).

page 58 rule 170
watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way_

Plenty of scope for confusion here, pedestrian waits on footway, car starts to turn, pedestrian steps out. When is driver expected to decide that the pedestrian has “started to cross”.

My recollection is that even earlier versions of the code says that “motorists should give way to pedestrians “ not “must”.

The newspaper article is fairly sensible and is about road safety. Really cabinetman should have checked what the changes actually are before making a point about hard done by motorists.

Anyway at least I now know about the changes.


----------



## Cabinetman (18 Dec 2021)

Jonm said:


> The original newspaper article is about making road users aware of the new rules. It contains a simplification of the rules relating to pedestrians and vehicles turning.
> 
> This is the 2013 impression of the Highway Code.
> 
> ...


 I fully understood what the changes are, and I still think with regard to cyclists that it’s a retrograde step and likely to not improve things.


----------



## TKB (18 Dec 2021)

….and I thought this was a woodworking forum? Happy Christmas shavings all


----------



## Sandyn (18 Dec 2021)

I'm a very keen cyclist. I have seen some dreadful cyclists, some great cyclists, some dreadful motorists, some great motorists some dreadful pedestrians and some great pedestrians. It's not the mode of transport, it's the people and the modern disease of not having respect for others no matter how they travel.
Also seen some dreadful dog owners and some lovely dog owners, but all the horse riders I have encountered have been respectful and very polite, but the horses tend to leave the biggest piles of [email protected] behind.


----------



## Jonm (18 Dec 2021)

paul-c said:


> borrowed from elsewhere
> 
> 
> *The bicycle is the slow death of the planet.*
> ...


Cyclists also draw their pension for much longer.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (18 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> Try this link if you don't believe road tax is still around Tax your vehicle



That's for taxing your vehicle, not for taxing your road.


----------



## cmoops2 (18 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Like many on here, I'm a keen cyclist and riding in the gutter us dangerous. I ride approx a meter out beyond the manhole covers, puddles etc.
> 
> However what does wind me up is the big chain gangs of riders who ride 2 abreast without any thought for the massive queue of drivers behind


Is that an electricity meter or a gas meter ?


----------



## baldkev (18 Dec 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> am sure no one would want to beat the queue jumper in Sainsbury's to death with a tin of beans



I hate que jumpers ( and christmas jumpers ) but i wouldnt beat one to death with a can of beans. You need something a bit heavier so you can get it done quickly and escape! Jack daniels bottles are pretty thick


----------



## Fergie 307 (18 Dec 2021)

Be a shame to waste it if the bottle broke, Famous Grouse maybe, then little harm done.


----------



## Cozzer (18 Dec 2021)

sploo said:


> ....Separate cycle lines would be much better for all.



Our local council had the bright idea a few months ago to allow cyclists to ride on the pavement by widening it by about a yard.
It cost a small fortune, and the works took bloody weeks. They also lost a bus stop pull-in courtesy of the widening, so the bus now holds up more traffic because it has to stop on the carriageway.
Then then felt obliged to put up 14 metal signs - some duplicated, but at different heights! - with "really useful information" that a 5 year old could understand.
There were two main problems with the idea.
The bloody cyclists have used the pavement for years, and pedestrians have to get out of their way.
The second problem is my labrador. He hates bikes. Don't know why - he's never said.
The biker I confronted this morning was helmeted with forward and rear-facing cameras, lycra suit endorsed with some team or other, and was hammering it as though his life depended on it.
On the pavement!

He looked bloody ridiculous.


----------



## TRITON (18 Dec 2021)

paul-c said:


> borrowed from elsewhere
> 
> 
> *The bicycle is the slow death of the planet.*
> ...


I think thats mostly flawed and certainly doesn't take actual world matters into account.

Many cyclists are also car owners, and the sport of mountainbiking requires car/van transport to get from the city to the countryside. Many mtbers are riding because they are concerned with their health and wellbeing, and do so in order to keep themselves fit and healthy.
Bicycles are expensive items and in this crime ridden world require insurance to guard against financial loss.
Not all cyclists are practical people, just as not every homeowner is plumber, carpenter or stonemason, and require trained professionals to undertake such works for them, something I have experience in volunteering for a bicycle charity as bike mechanic, where many of the customers had neither the notion, nor experience to fix their bicycle themselves, even down to being capable of fixing a puncture. Some of the jobs of the modern bicycle require great knowledge and skill, in relation to building or truing spoked wheels, and in this modern era hydraulic brakes and expensive and elaborate suspension systems.

As to the rest, thats a mostly mercenary insight into what people should be in order to run a type of economy that favours a small number, and in fact we could label that small number as being parasitical in nature.


----------



## doctor Bob (18 Dec 2021)

Ok, one quick question, I get the lycra for top cyclists, I get it for fit fast amateurs and I get it for skinny people pretending to be good cyclists, but for people carrying 3 stone plus, toddling along at walking pace, why's that then?
Now I know it's none of my business, I know it makes no difference to me etc etc, but what is the mental process of thinking this tight fitting clothing is just the thing for me. Is it the equivalent of buying lee neilsen planes when you have just started woodworking?


----------



## paulrbarnard (18 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> I think you either don't have a car or are just lucky to get away with it, especially in London with that very efficient metropolitan police force.
> 
> Try this link if you don't believe road tax is still around Tax your vehicle


Oh I see now; you are talking about the vehicle excise tax. That's a tax based on the pollution created by the vehicle. It is tiered based on the amount of pollution different vehicle creates. I can see how some people could confuse this with Road Tax which was abolished in 1937. Some people are a little slow to catch up. Now there are proposals to have vehicle excise duty ring fenced to pay for the expansion of the "strategic road network", not pay for all roads just expansion of stategic ones... That was supposed to happen this year but I haven't seen anything about it for quite some time.

I think it would be very fair for all vehicles, regardless of type, to pay their full share towards their use. One study I saw showed that a typical family car would pay several thousand pounds more a year to fully cover the costs related to their use, all of which today is coming from general taxation paid by everyone even those who don't own a car. The same study showed that cyclist would receive a tax refund of several hunderd pounds. Bring it on I say. Too many motorists look at the vehicle excise tax and think that by paying it they are paying to use their cars. It is very far from the truth. Every motorist is heavily subsidised. 

Don't get me started on people storing their private property in public places, I'm talking about parking, cars parked on public roads and even on the pedestrian pavement at the side of a road in far too many cases. Try putting a shed in the road outside your house and see what motorists will say about that blocking the roads but they completely ignore the chaos caused by parked vehicles.


----------



## Jacob (18 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> .....
> 
> Don't get me started on people storing their private property in public places, I'm talking about parking car parked on public roads and even on the pedestrian pavement at the side of a road in far too many cases. Try putting a shed in the road outside your house and see what motorists will say about that blocking the roads but they completely ignore the chaos caused by parked vehicles.


Good point! 
Perhaps the single biggest mistake of motor traffic management was to allow parking anywhere - other than as necessary to stop and start as going about business.
It would not have been allowed at any other time in the past - all vehicles were kept off road when not in active use.
I'd quite like to leave a couple of redundant wardrobes out in the street but they'd go ape s**t!


----------



## paulrbarnard (18 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Good point!
> Perhaps the single biggest mistake of motor traffic management was to allow parking anywhere - other than as necessary to stop and start as going about business.
> It would not have been allowed at any other time in the past - all vehicles were kept off road when not in active use.
> I'd quite like to leave a couple of redundant wardrobes out in the street but they'd go ape s**t!



Get yourself a nice big box van, make sure it is taxed (fit it with an electric motor and a battery and it will be free to tax it, it doesn't have to be able to actually drive, a pre 1981 model is free too). That will give you plenty of room to store those wardrobes.

The sad fact is that parking a car and blocking a carriageway is prohibited it is just not enforced. Every car that is parked at the side of a road such that it causes a vehicle to change lanes to get around it is technically parked illegally.


----------



## Grantx (18 Dec 2021)

Funny af Road rage.


----------



## Cabinetman (18 Dec 2021)

Beyond belief, what a pair of argumentative silly people


----------



## sneggysteve (18 Dec 2021)

"The second problem is my labrador. He hates bikes. Don't know why - he's never said."

Was hoping dogs were not going to be mentioned - you know those on shared walk /cycle paths where they are not on leads and a problem for everyone?


----------



## JSW (18 Dec 2021)

Grantx said:


> Funny af Road rage.




Ohh he went down HARD!! Face plant of the year right there


----------



## TRITON (18 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Ok, one quick question, I get the lycra for top cyclists, I get it for fit fast amateurs and I get it for skinny people pretending to be good cyclists, but for people carrying 3 stone plus, toddling along at walking pace, why's that then?
> Now I know it's none of my business, I know it makes no difference to me etc etc, but what is the mental process of thinking this tight fitting clothing is just the thing for me. Is it the equivalent of buying lee neilsen planes when you have just started woodworking?


Beats me.


----------



## sploo (18 Dec 2021)

Cozzer said:


> Our local council had the bright idea a few months ago to allow cyclists to ride on the pavement by widening it by about a yard.
> It cost a small fortune, and the works took bloody weeks. They also lost a bus stop pull-in courtesy of the widening, so the bus now holds up more traffic because it has to stop on the carriageway.
> Then then felt obliged to put up 14 metal signs - some duplicated, but at different heights! - with "really useful information" that a 5 year old could understand.
> There were two main problems with the idea.
> ...


Yea, a separate cycle lane doesn't make much sense if it's separate from cars but shared with pedestrians. Merely moves the problem between a different set of people.


----------



## doctor Bob (18 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Beats me.
> View attachment 124572


I never realised you were such a fine figure of manhood Triton


----------



## sploo (18 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Ok, one quick question, I get the lycra for top cyclists, I get it for fit fast amateurs and I get it for skinny people pretending to be good cyclists, but for people carrying 3 stone plus, toddling along at walking pace, why's that then?
> Now I know it's none of my business, I know it makes no difference to me etc etc, but what is the mental process of thinking this tight fitting clothing is just the thing for me. Is it the equivalent of buying lee neilsen planes when you have just started woodworking?


Most obvious reason is probably that it's the "done thing"; though many decent road bike saddles are like razor blades so the padded shorts do help your gentleman's veg and barse*

I think there is some evidence that tight but stretchy material is helpful to muscles for exercise (don't know the details).

Final reason is that tight fitting clothes don't flap around and result in drag (wind resistance) or get caught in chains.

But mostly it is likely because it's the "done thing".

* The bit between your b*ll*ks and your @RSE


----------



## Blackswanwood (18 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Beats me.
> View attachment 124572


Does he not realise how ridiculous he looks wearing socks with sandals


----------



## ian33a (18 Dec 2021)

sploo said:


> Most obvious reason is probably that it's the "done thing"; though many decent road bike saddles are like razor blades so the padded shorts do help your gentleman's veg and barse*
> 
> I think there is some evidence that tight but stretchy material is helpful to muscles for exercise (don't know the details).
> 
> ...



The materials also wick sweat and allow heat to dissipate. Certainly, for me, this makes a massive difference.

Lycra also attracts a discount in some cake shops too!


----------



## Jacob (18 Dec 2021)

ian33a said:


> The materials also wick sweat and allow heat to dissipate. Certainly, for me, this makes a massive difference.
> 
> Lycra also attracts a discount in some cake shops too!


Good for hitching lifts too. Especially if you are carrying a wheel. In fact it's one of the fastest ways to get around the country. You can get two cars stopping at a time!
I found this out by chance when a spoke broke in Loch Carron and I had to hitch to Dingwall for a repair. There and back in a flash! A couple of pints and a scotch pie while I waited for the repair


----------



## Jacob (18 Dec 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Does he not realise how ridiculous he looks wearing socks with sandals


Yebbut probably a beginner - after a year of cycling he'd be lean as a whippet and fast as f ook!
He's probably got sandals with spd cleats.


----------



## TRITON (18 Dec 2021)

True story
Was at a favourite wheelbuilder a number of years ago and as the owner likes to chinwag and takes all day to do the wheels so I sat outside for a bit to have a ciggie.
Roadie, in his ultra clean roadie lycra comes up to me , a complete stranger and says directly. 'Smoking is a disgusting habit'. I've been a bit of a regular at this place and im sure some will be shocked to learn I can be a bit outspoken, but I've never met him, and him me, so the comment was too direct and out of place to the extent I saw it as him being a cheeky sob.
So anyway. He says such and i turn to him and say. No, smoking isn't a disgusting habit, W*****g is a disgusting habit, are you a W****r ?
No he says.
So I said to him, well F*** of and stop acting like one.
I'm 15stone and 6'3" and he was like 5'6" or something so quickly wandered off  No doubt went off to tell tales to the owner and staff about the aggressive nutter outside


----------



## baldkev (18 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Now there are proposals to have vehicle excise duty ring fenced to pay for the expansion of the "strategic road network", not pay for all roads just expansion of stategic ones... That was supposed to happen this year but I haven't seen anything about it for quite some time.



They can pineapple right off!! Theyve got to fix all the potholes first!!!



doctor Bob said:


> Ok, one quick question, I get the lycra for top cyclists, I get it for fit fast amateurs and I get it for skinny people pretending to be good cyclists



Nope and nope. Men should be banned from lycra full stop. If you are intent on bombing around on a race bike, the real life ' benefits ' ( reduced air resistance ) of subjecting innocent road users and pedestrians to such psychological injury just isnt justified 

Girls get a free pass tho


----------



## baldkev (19 Dec 2021)

Grantx said:


> Funny af Road rage.




Did a good roll at the end tho 



Jacob said:


> Good for hitching lifts too. Especially if you are carrying a wheel. In fact it's one of the fastest ways to get around the country. You can get two cars stopping at a time!



Well.... i worked for a property developer and he was a cyclist, carbon wheels, lycra, the works. One day he was cycling along in the rain and saw a girl drop her art folder and her drawings went into the water on the pavement. He stopped to help ( in his lycra ) and a middleaged woman nearby shoed him away looking most stern..... i think he then realised just how he looked in his wet lycra getup


----------



## Blackswanwood (19 Dec 2021)

It’s a problem for superheroes as they get older …


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2021)

Funny to think that when I go out in my cycling kit there's a whole lot of old woodworkers getting all excited about me!
Maybe should work on it - creative places to put a pouch of tools and a spare tube etc.


----------



## stuart little (19 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Try riding a high performance road bike along a typical cycle path and if you still have teeth left at the end of it you have found the 1% of good cycle paths in the U.K. Pedestrians can be an annoyance, for the same reasons cars get upset at bikes (they get in the way and slow you down), but they have every right to be there so I suck it up. Even the painted lanes at the edge of a main carriageway can be a problem as they don’t get swept by vehicle tires so have all kinds of puncture or crash inducing stuff all over them.


Quite right, try watching Le TdF & see how many punctures etc are picked up in the 'gutter' & wet white lines bringing riders down. Before someone says it:- yes they are going at much faster rates than yer every day cyclist.


----------



## stuart little (19 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Groups of cyclists make things better - you only have to overtake one group rather than each one of them separately strung out down the roadMany cycle facilities are an absolute farce and are best avoided Cycle Facility of the Month It's perfectly legal to avoid them too, unless there is a specific prohibition on cycling on the roadThere are.


Were B & H coun  cil unable to think that a partial dropped kerb would allow cyclists to stay in their lane?


----------



## stuart little (19 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Cycle Facility of the Month
> 
> 
> Some of them are hilarious, others just moronic. This dull sort of thing is most typical we've all seen them:
> ...


Is it a 'Lay-By' for cyclists?


----------



## stuart little (19 Dec 2021)

I still say ; "Put the tax on fuel, let them that use the roads most, pay the most." Before Sorning my car, when covid took over, I averaged 1,000 mpyr , with tax @ £356, a pal bought a new car in which he probably does 10k /yr.& zero tax. We need a fairer system.


----------



## stuart little (19 Dec 2021)

Grantx said:


> Funny af Road rage.



What a MORON! Wonder what he does for an encore?


----------



## stuart little (19 Dec 2021)

Hey guys isn't it time to end this thread, as it's now gone off at a very big tangent?


----------



## Daniel2 (19 Dec 2021)

I don't see why.
Threads, like conversations, naturally evolve.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (19 Dec 2021)

Revolve.


----------



## MikeJhn (19 Dec 2021)

Implode.


----------



## Vann (19 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> I hate que jumpers ( and christmas jumpers ) but i wouldnt beat one to death with a can of beans...



It's people in supermarkets not wearing masks that I would gladly beat to death with a can of beans (or a can of fruit, or beetroot...)

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## doctor Bob (19 Dec 2021)

Pheasants should be banned, hit one the other day £1400 of damage. Through the grill, through the electric louvers, and damage to radiator.
Hit a deer the week before in the van and did the bonnet in.
Not a good run, I'm vegan and seriously wondering if fate is playing a game with me.


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Implode.


expand creatively


----------



## Phil Pascoe (19 Dec 2021)

Vann said:


> It's people in supermarkets not wearing masks that I would gladly beat to death with a can of beans (or a can of fruit, or beetroot...)
> 
> Cheers, Vann.


If you believe a mask can contain a disease you must also believe your undies can contain a farrrt.


----------



## Spectric (19 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> Beats me.


We are only seeing the actual image, but for that guy he may actually think he is a superfit cyclist or perhaps he even was once upon a time and is now having a mid life crisis and re living the glory days.


----------



## paulrbarnard (19 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> If you believe a mask can contain a disease you must also believe your undies can contain a farrrt.


They contain the wet bits… not understanding the concept of aerosols As apposed to aresoles.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (19 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


> I did once see a camel grazing at the roadside in France.


I have have a photo somewhere that I took in France that has a camel, a baby (or possibly pygmy) hippopotamus, and perhaps a goat all grazing together under a sign labelled "Complex Sportif". Unfortunately it's an old school hard copy photo and not digital, so I can't verify it for you immediately.

Re lycra - luckily we don't have too many Captain Condom wannabes because cycling in Greece is just a complicated way to comit suicide whilst improbably dressed. We get a few Italians with their fashion-victim lifestyle ensuring they have the most expensive of everything from bike to sunnies to team colours. Greek roads are wide, with an extensive hard shoulder normally full of decomposing roadkill, plus a culture of allowing zero personal space when - what could possibly go wrong?. More entertaining are the northern Europeans on a cycling tour: normally a retired couple from Holland or Germany who didn't think through the consequences of cycling in 40°C whilst carrying everything they own in panniers, up mountains. You see the wife first - husband is invariably fitter and stronger and 2 miles ahead of wife - who is normally puce of face and telephoning her divorce lawyer (I may have made up that last bit). They never seem to be enjoying their holiday. Perhaps cycling isn't as much fun when you do it all day?

I reckon that the more time challenged you are, the less patience you have for delays caused by other road users. I think a retired Sunday only driver (with obligatory flat cap) would be much more accepting of cyclists or farm vehicles than an Amazon delivery driver, for example. 

It is also a legal requirement to wear a mask while cycling in Greece - logic is everything when you _follow the science._


----------



## John Brown (19 Dec 2021)

Only in Cornwall would they put ferrets in their undies...


----------



## Phil Pascoe (19 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> They contain the wet bits… not understanding the concept of aerosols As apposed to aresoles.


I put one on dry, wear it for an hour and take it off dry. Where did the the 90gms of water exhaled go?


----------



## flying haggis (19 Dec 2021)

Jonm said:


> Cyclists also draw their pension for much longer.


not all of them though


----------



## flying haggis (19 Dec 2021)

why though do cyclists expect a five foot wide gap when motorists pass them yet are quite happy to cycle at speed between cars waiting at lights etc. why dont they give the cars a five foot wide space as well.
double standards.... ALL cyclists should have to be registered and wear a hi viz vest with that reg number on it just like cars have to have a reg. no vest equals plod stopping them and fines just as a car driver would get and it would also mean that when they run red lights the cameras could get them just like a car.. And a final question if a cyclist does run a red light and does get stopped if they have a car licence do they get points on it just as a car driver would?


----------



## TRITON (19 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> We are only seeing the actual image, but for that guy he may actually think he is a superfit cyclist or perhaps he even was once upon a time and is now having a mid life crisis and re living the glory days.


Is that a confession  And one I think many of us can relate to


----------



## Spectric (19 Dec 2021)

Yes getting old is not fun


----------



## Jameshow (19 Dec 2021)

flying haggis said:


> why though do cyclists expect a five foot wide gap when motorists pass them yet are quite happy to cycle at speed between cars waiting at lights etc. why dont they give the cars a five foot wide space as well.
> double standards.... ALL cyclists should have to be registered and wear a hi viz vest with that reg number on it just like cars have to have a reg. no vest equals plod stopping them and fines just as a car driver would get and it would also mean that when they run red lights the cameras could get them just like a car.. And a final question if a cyclist does run a red light and does get stopped if they have a car licence do they get points on it just as a car driver would?


Good question I think they should do, as a cyclist that annoys me as much as anything...


----------



## paulrbarnard (19 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Good question I think they should do, as a cyclist that annoys me as much as anything...


To you give a five foot gap when you go past a stopped vehicle?


----------



## Geoff_S (19 Dec 2021)

I've heard that weekend cyclists actually shave their legs like the professionals. I know this to be true as a cyclist I know
told me that he does exactly that and so do his mates. It's to do with the drag through said hairy legs, slows them down a bit.


----------



## flying haggis (19 Dec 2021)

maybe not five foot but enough in case the door is opened (have had it happen)


----------



## ian33a (19 Dec 2021)

flying haggis said:


> maybe not five foot but enough in case the door is opened (have had it happen)



Yes, I was nearly creamed by a car driver opening a door last Wednesday. Had I gone over I'd have taken the cyclist behind me too. I doubt the door would have fared too well either. The car owner was blissfully unaware.


----------



## flying haggis (19 Dec 2021)

I did witness a car door being removed by the passing truck........ (nearly took the drivers arm as well)


----------



## Sandyn (19 Dec 2021)

penyrolewen said:


> Particularly irritating is cyclists on the road when there is a cycle path literally next to the road. I’ve asked people about why they do this and have been told that they don’t like using cycle paths because pedestrians get in the way!


I tend not to use cycle paths because they are dangerous. They are usually very poorly constructed, extremely rough, never maintained, overgrown and slippery. At this time of year they can be full of hawthorn cuttings where the hedges have been cut.
I often travel at a speed which would be a danger to pedestrians. It's not compulsory to use them or cycle lanes. I sometimes use cycle lanes, but they are normally at the edge of the road, full of pot holes and really dangerous. When you see a puddle, there could be a 5" deep hole in the middle of it. Some motorist think because you are in a cycle lane they don't need to leave any space when they overtake.
Every time I go out cycling, I have at least one incident where a motorist does something stupid.


----------



## paulrbarnard (19 Dec 2021)

Geoff_S said:


> I've heard that weekend cyclists actually shave their legs like the professionals. I know this to be true as a cyclist I know
> told me that he does exactly that and so do his mates. It's to do with the drag through said hairy legs, slows them down a bit.


Actually hairy legs are faster. The hairs break the laminate flow of the air and reduce drag creating vortexes. Professional cyclists still shave their legs so that the rash plasters don’t get stuck to them.


----------



## Nelly111s (19 Dec 2021)

I own 3 cars (including a sports car) and 3 bikes, so I'm a menace to someone every time I'm out on the road! 
I think it's interesting about Highway Code and / or law changes, since many people (me included) aren't always aware of the change. However, my experience is that car drivers and bike riders are both as bad as each other. Both break the law in various ways (speeding, red lights etc.) and are quite vocal when they see others of the other fraternity doing something they don't like or agree with, ignoring their own indiscretions. I've had similar experiences - cars too close to me - when cycling or driving (particularly on the motorway, where some people appear to think they can fit their car in the boot of my sports car, which is only big enough for a large envelope). The difference, to me, is twofold. In a car you feel somehow protected from the elements and environment around you and this insulates you and on a bike, a small error can lead to painful consequences which isn't usually the case in a car. 
Last year, during lockdown, I was fortunate enough to carry on work and continued to commute on my bike (12 miles each way) which was a delight due to the lack of cars. I did about 2000 miles commuting before I got knocked off in July 2020 and I'm still recovering from this. This was on a cycle lane ...
I don't think that "all drivers should be blamed for this", just that one driver didn't look and they were an accident waiting to happen, just that it happened to be me. I do think drivers or cyclists who cause accidents like this should be shot to improve the gene pool though


----------



## Sandyn (19 Dec 2021)

Nelly111s said:


> when cycling or driving (particularly on the motorway, where some people appear to think they can fit their car in the boot of my sports car


You are braver than me. I wouldn't dare cycle on the motorway!!


----------



## Nelly111s (19 Dec 2021)

Sandyn said:


> You are braver than me. I wouldn't dare cycle on the motorway!!


You should see my Strava stats!!


----------



## Grantx (19 Dec 2021)

This actually happened to me. Riding my bike in London and a dude opened his car door. Left handle bar hooked the door and i went over the handlebars landing in the middle of the street. The bus behind screeched to a stop and the dude gets out his car not even apologising. He was the one that ended up lying on the road though 



ian33a said:


> Yes, I was nearly creamed by a car driver opening a door last Wednesday. Had I gone over I'd have taken the cyclist behind me too. I doubt the door would have fared too well either. The car owner was blissfully unaware.


----------



## Mickjay (19 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> I think you either don't have a car or are just lucky to get away with it, especially in London with that very efficient metropolitan police force.
> 
> Try this link if you don't believe road tax is still around Tax your vehicle


I think you are confusing vehicle excise duty with road tax, which has not existed since sometime in the 1930s. A quick search will provide the relevant details. One example :-








Is there any such thing as 'road tax'?


Cyclists often report that aggressive motorists justify their behaviour on the basis that they pay “road tax”. But there is no such thing.



www.bbc.co.uk




As far as I can tell it was to prevent the entitlement argument of motorists, failed obviously, as it's still apparent 90 years later


----------



## paulrbarnard (19 Dec 2021)

Nelly111s said:


> I own 3 cars (including a sports car) and 3 bikes, so I'm a menace to someone every time I'm out on the road!
> I think it's interesting about Highway Code and / or law changes, since many people (me included) aren't always aware of the change. However, my experience is that car drivers and bike riders are both as bad as each other. Both break the law in various ways (speeding, red lights etc.) and are quite vocal when they see others of the other fraternity doing something they don't like or agree with, ignoring their own indiscretions. I've had similar experiences - cars too close to me - when cycling or driving (particularly on the motorway, where some people appear to think they can fit their car in the boot of my sports car, which is only big enough for a large envelope). The difference, to me, is twofold. In a car you feel somehow protected from the elements and environment around you and this insulates you and on a bike, a small error can lead to painful consequences which isn't usually the case in a car.
> Last year, during lockdown, I was fortunate enough to carry on work and continued to commute on my bike (12 miles each way) which was a delight due to the lack of cars. I did about 2000 miles commuting before I got knocked off in July 2020 and I'm still recovering from this. This was on a cycle lane ...
> I don't think that "all drivers should be blamed for this", just that one driver didn't look and they were an accident waiting to happen, just that it happened to be me. I do think drivers or cyclists who cause accidents like this should be shot to improve the gene pool though


I’ve always thought the greatest aid to road safety would be a 12 inch hardened steel spike sticking out of the center of the steering wheel.


----------



## Nelly111s (19 Dec 2021)

Actually, my real thought is “training”. Anyone who has worked in any industry with regulations knows about training, both initial and refresher. Sometimes it’s necessary to keep your job. Operating a 2 ton machine at speed, or a 7kg bike with a tyre contact patch as big as 8 sq. cm should really be the subject of better, more frequent training and/or recertification. We could start by making everyone who has caused an accident where someone was injured having to pass a test before being allowed to drive/ride again.


----------



## TRITON (20 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Try riding a high performance road bike along a typical cycle path and if you still have teeth left at the end of it you have found the 1% of good cycle paths in the U.K.


This is why I ride a 160mm travel full suss Ebike. It's ultra comfortable and i can ride over anything.


----------



## MikeJhn (20 Dec 2021)




----------



## Sandyn (20 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> It's ultra comfortable and i can ride over anything.


Nice bike!! No problem getting over a bunch of pedestrians on that one!!


----------



## Stevekane (20 Dec 2021)

Its a wide ranging topic so here goes,,,
In Rome we found lots of “Zebra Crossings” except the traffic will not stop for you,,in the end you realise that you just have to start walking and the cars stop, but as you pass the lane behind you starts off again and the lane in front is still going,,feels bloody dangerous but seems to work okay.
Steve.


----------



## Keith Cocker (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> If you believe a mask can contain a disease you must also believe your undies can contain a farrrt.



Funny that! Most scientists and medics think it helps and I imagine they know more about it than you or i do so I’ll follow their advice.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (20 Dec 2021)

flying haggis said:


> why though do cyclists expect a five foot wide gap when motorists pass them yet are quite happy to cycle at speed between cars waiting at lights etc. why dont they give the cars a five foot wide space as well.



When a car passes a bicycle there's typically a much higher closing speed. There's also a lot more kinetic energy in the system than when a bicycle passes a stopped car. Thus more chance of more damage when the car passes the bicycle, which indicates that more clearance is required for adequate safety.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (20 Dec 2021)

Keith Cocker said:


> Funny that! Most scientists and medics think it helps and I imagine they know more about it than you or i do so I’ll follow their advice.


Most scientists and medics don't wear or test ill fitting dirty little patches of tissue.


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> If you believe a mask can contain a disease you must also believe your undies can contain a farrrt.







__





One moment, please...






dearpandemic.org


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Most scientists and medics don't wear or test ill fitting dirty little patches of tissue.


Are you suggesting that they should wear their unwashed underpants over their faces? Is that what they do in Cornwall?


----------



## stuart little (20 Dec 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Pheasants should be banned, hit one the other day £1400 of damage. Through the grill, through the electric louvers, and damage to radiator.
> Hit a deer the week before in the van and did the bonnet in.
> Not a good run, I'm vegan and seriously wondering if fate is playing a game with me.


Within 2 weeks of buying a new car, I hit one. I got out to inspect the damage, only to find the 'peasant' trapped by it's foot between bumper & grill & taking it's last breath. The only damage was to the grille locating lugs which a couple of self tappers fixed. I got my revenge by removing the now dead pheasant & putting it in the boot. Later I plucked, cooked, & ate it!!
It may be unlawful to pick up a pheasant that has been killed by one's own car, but in this case the bird never landed on the road.


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> When a car passes a bicycle there's typically a much higher closing speed. There's also a lot more kinetic energy in the system than when a bicycle passes a stopped car. Thus more chance of more damage when the car passes the bicycle, which indicates that more clearance is required for adequate safety.


Cyclists working their way through narrow gaps between stationary cars do it slowly and carefully. If cars overtook at the same sorts of speed there would be no problem.
Another less obvious 2 wheel prob is that they _have_ to wobble - balance is achieved by leaning one way and then the other. Look at wet tyre tracks and you can see it. The slower they go the more they have to wobble and the more room they need, especially if near a kerb.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Most scientists and medics don't wear or test ill fitting dirty little patches of tissue.



There have been lots of tests of various types of masks, including loose-fit fabric masks. Here is one example; Google turns up dozens of properly controlled scientific tests.









Face masks against COVID-19: Standards, efficacy, testing and decontamination methods


Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the virus responsible for the novel coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), has caused a global pandemic on a scale not seen for over a century. Increasing evidence suggests that respiratory droplets ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## stuart little (20 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> To you give a five foot gap when you go past a stopped vehicle?


Why is it when meeting oncoming traffic that's passing parked vehicles, do the oncomers try to get as near as possible to you, yet leave s much space as they can from the obviousley empty parked vehicles?


----------



## Daniel2 (20 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


> Why is it when meeting oncoming traffic that's passing parked vehicles, do the oncomers try to get as near as possible to you, yet leave s much space as they can from the obviousley empty parked vehicles?



A phenomenon that I have also observed.


----------



## ian33a (20 Dec 2021)

There's also the unpredictability when passing a cyclist due to road surface:

When a car drives along the road it is likely to follow a straight route unless there is an obvious obstruction such as a pot hole which is avoidable.

An experienced road cyclist is closely analysing the road surface constantly to avoid pot holes, cracks, drain covers, gutters, speed bumps and a host of other _surface furniture_. Most cyclists are generally unaware of traffic behind them (unless that have something like a Varia radar) and will weave around to avoid imperfections in the road surface without being aware of what is behind them (they wont necessarily hear a vehicle behind them). The nearer a car gets to a cyclist as it over takes the greater is the risk of them coming together in the event of a weave.

If a cyclist is passing a slow or stationary object they will naturally leave enough room to avoid the obstacle and also take into account imperfections in the road surface as well. Only a really inexperienced or idiotic cyclist will deliberately pass very close to an object at speed.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (20 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


> Why is it when meeting oncoming traffic that's passing parked vehicles, do the oncomers try to get as near as possible to you, yet leave s much space as they can from the obviousley empty parked vehicles?



Most people aren't very confident about the width of their vehicle, particularly as it extends towards the side of the road. Add in the fear of kerbing a wheel, scraping a parked car, someone stepping out between parked cars, or someone opening their door without looking, and I think a lot of people feel safer quite a long way from any obstructions on the left.


----------



## stuart little (20 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Most people aren't very confident about the width of their vehicle, particularly as it extends towards the side of the road. Add in the fear of kerbing a wheel, scraping a parked car, someone stepping out between parked cars, or someone opening their door without looking, and I think a lot of people feel safer quite a long way from any obstructions on the left.


But NOT entirely worried at hitting an on coming vehicle at twice the speed!


----------



## Vann (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> If you believe a mask can contain a disease you must also believe your undies can contain a farrrt.


Okay, I'll rephase that. It's prats in supermarkets, not wearing masks because they think they know more than scientists, that I would gladly beat to death...

For prats on forums, with similar views, I'm still considering my options.

But just to bring some humour back - the thing about farts and undies is, at least the undies catch any large particles.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (20 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


> But NOT entirely worried at hitting an on coming vehicle at twice the speed!



I didn't mean to suggest that the behaviour described was rational or desirable


----------



## stuart little (20 Dec 2021)

Then there's those that cannot wait between parked vehicles to let passing ones go by before walking out & opening their door in the face of an on coming vehicle.
What about 'pram/buggy pushers' who swing the front end out over the kerb before looking, and those that come out between parked cars buggy first, & parents who park with the baby seat on the road side rather than the kerb etc etc.
I guess that's gone off at a tangent, but ---. It'll probably start something off!


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (20 Dec 2021)

Basically everyone is an silly person except me, and I'm worse than any of them but don't realise it.


----------



## Daniel2 (20 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Basically everyone is an silly person except me, and I'm worse than any of them but don't realise it.



I have also concluded that it's probably me.


----------



## stuart little (20 Dec 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I have also concluded that it's probably me.


My mother said to me , when I was 'much younger than I am today', "The older you get the dafter you are". NOW I see the wisdom off her words!


----------



## Spectric (20 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> There's also a lot more kinetic energy in the system than when a bicycle passes a stopped car. Thus more chance of more damage when the car passes the bicycle, which indicates that more clearance is required for adequate safety.


Is it not also feasable that as a vehicle approaches the bicyclist it is moving a wall of air and so as it passes it provides an airbag for protection and keeps the two apart, if too far away then it could pull the bicyclist in as it creates a partial depression. 



stuart little said:


> "The older you get the dafter you are".


Is that not because as you get older you get wiser and realise that maintaining an image to others has been a pointless exercise and now you can just be you and not worry what others may think.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (20 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> Is it not also feasable that as a vehicle approaches the bicyclist it is moving a wall of air and so as it passes it provides an airbag for protection and keeps the two apart, if too far away then it could pull the bicyclist in as it creates a partial depression.



Good call, and I'm sure this links into the thing about cyclists shaving their legs somehow.


----------



## Spectric (20 Dec 2021)

I heard that they shave everything off to be super smooth in an attempt not to be confused with Hedgehogs!


----------



## Noel (20 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Good call, and I'm sure this links into the thing about cyclists shaving their legs somehow.




Main reason for shaving legs is road rash.


----------



## Tris (20 Dec 2021)

Can't wait for tourist season next summer. Some of the locals were fished out of a very shallow gene pool so there are a few who like to while away their time standing on the kerb watching the cars and lorries passing along the Fosse. I can just see a couple of burly truckers escorting them, protesting, across the road to get the traffic moving again.


----------



## Adam W. (20 Dec 2021)

Noel said:


> Main reason for shaving legs is road rash.




Unless you are a regular at Duckie, The Vauxhall Tavern.


----------



## sirocosm (20 Dec 2021)

flying haggis said:


> ALL cyclists should have to be registered and wear a hi viz vest with that reg number on it just like cars have to have a reg. no vest equals plod stopping them and fines just as a car driver would get and it would also mean that when they run red lights the cameras could get them just like a car.. And a final question if a cyclist does run a red light and does get stopped if they have a car licence do they get points on it just as a car driver would?



Next thing you know you are going to want to register (and tax) our feet. The reason cars are registered is because they are dangerous and kill around 1500 people a year. Bicycles not so much.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (20 Dec 2021)

The reason cars are registered is because they're easily taxed.


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The reason cars are registered is because they're easily taxed.


er - makes no sense at all. Perfectly easy to tax bikes if necessary.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (20 Dec 2021)

When no one knows who owns them?


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> When no one knows who owns them?


They'd know who owned them if they were registered. Thats the whole idea of registering vehicles.


----------



## sirocosm (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The reason cars are registered is because they're easily taxed.



Except they don't tax electric cars, although they still need to be registered.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (20 Dec 2021)

Because they're trying to persuade peole to buy them. When they're common they will.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (20 Dec 2021)

Anything with wheels used on a public road should registered and insured. So should horses if taken on roads.


----------



## sirocosm (20 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Anything with wheels used on a public road should registered and insured. So should horses if taken on roads.



So if I am in a wheelchair or ride mobility scooter I should be registered and insured? What about a skateboard? Rollerblades? If I push a wheelbarrow full of bricks down the street to the neighbors, do I need a license for that? 

I would swap "wheels" for "motor over .5Kw", which is pretty close to the rules now.


----------



## Vann (21 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Anything with wheels used on a public road should registered and insured. So should horses if taken on roads.



As Sirocosm points out, that's just silly Phil.

Car drivers should know their place - and hang their heads in shame. 

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## TRITON (21 Dec 2021)

I think my easy nature about cars passing cyclists close comes from cycling on Skye.
There you are on a wide A class road, pottering along, keeping close to the kerb and a car passes you at 90+mph
You never hear it coming really until its passed you with a rush of wind and a noise akin to a sonic boom. Having that happen 50 times on a 2 hour journey scares the bejesus out of you each time, so a car on an urban main road passing at 30 and below is nothing in comparison.

I simply can't understand why some cyclists in town or city are passed close, then go off chasing the driver to shout, scream and swear at them and even try to damage a wing mirror.
I do derive a little pleasure from it when the driver gets out and thumps the raving lunatic, I mean what do you expect ?,you wouldn't talk to someone like that down the pub would you.


----------



## NormanB (21 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> So if I am in a wheelchair or ride mobility scooter I should be registered and insured? What about a skateboard? Rollerblades? If I push a wheelbarrow full of bricks down the street to the neighbors, do I need a license for that?
> 
> I would swap "wheels" for "motor over .5Kw", which is pretty close to the rules now.


Absolutely all road users should be.


----------



## sirocosm (21 Dec 2021)

I think it is mostly down to attitude and culture. When I lived in Canada, the subdivision we lived in did not even have a footpath to get in. Your only option was a car, and we had both a car and a truck. Then we moved to Switzerland, and a car was neither practical nor affordable. After that we moved to Germany where most people have cars, but we still didn't get one. We did all of our shopping by bike. It saved us a lot of money and hassle, and the few times we did need a car, we just rented one.

Here in the UK we do have a car, but we don't use it much, mostly for shopping, which is more difficult to do by bike in the UK because of the lack of bike paths and/or wide multi-use pavements. I ride my bike to work (about 35 min each way), which is an old heavy dutch bike, so I can ride on bike paths and close to the curb. Most drivers are reasonable, in Norwich I experience more pushy drivers when in the car (or when on foot) than when cycling.

Imagine how nice the roads would be if everyone that was physically able to cycle to work did so.


----------



## sploo (21 Dec 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Most scientists and medics don't wear or test ill fitting dirty little patches of tissue.


During the first "round" of Covid many of the medics (I'm married to one) were wearing bin bags with holes cut in them due to a lack of suitable PPE being supplied. They'd have bitten your hand off for a patch of tissue.


----------



## stuart little (21 Dec 2021)

Stevekane said:


> Its a wide ranging topic so here goes,,,
> In Rome we found lots of “Zebra Crossings” except the traffic will not stop for you,,in the end you realise that you just have to start walking and the cars stop, but as you pass the lane behind you starts off again and the lane in front is still going,,feels bloody dangerous but seems to work okay.
> Steve.


I found that too, and also the locals follow!


----------



## stuart little (21 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> I think it is mostly down to attitude and culture. When I lived in Canada, the subdivision we lived in did not even have a footpath to get in. Your only option was a car, and we had both a car and a truck. Then we moved to Switzerland, and a car was neither practical nor affordable. After that we moved to Germany where most people have cars, but we still didn't get one. We did all of our shopping by bike. It saved us a lot of money and hassle, and the few times we did need a car, we just rented one.
> 
> Here in the UK we do have a car, but we don't use it much, mostly for shopping, which is more difficult to do by bike in the UK because of the lack of bike paths and/or wide multi-use pavements. I ride my bike to work (about 35 min each way), which is an old heavy dutch bike, so I can ride on bike paths and close to the curb. Most drivers are reasonable, in Norwich I experience more pushy drivers when in the car (or when on foot) than when cycling.
> 
> Imagine how nice the roads would be if everyone that was physically able to cycle to work did so.


It would probably be like in China - bikes coming at you from all directions!


----------



## stuart little (21 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Unless you are a regular at Duckie, The Vauxhall Tavern.


----------



## Jacob (21 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


>


Matthew 7:7. "Seek, and ye shall find": Duckie, The Royal Vauxhall Tavern


----------



## stuart little (21 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Matthew 7:7. "Seek, and ye shall find": Duckie, The Royal Vauxhall Tavern


OMG!


----------



## Jacob (21 Dec 2021)

stuart little said:


> OMG!


Sounds like just what we need in these troubled times. 
Artie and Monster should get down there and let their hair down, if they could get past Father and Jaycloth!


----------



## MikeJhn (21 Dec 2021)

@Adam W. how comes that was in your knowledge bank?


----------



## Sandyn (21 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Sounds like just what we need in these troubled times.


It sounds a fabulous place, a bit of history:-
In the 1980s, The RVT became known as ‘The Palladium of Drag’ with stars such as Paul O’Grady as Lily Savage who had an 8 year, 4 times a week residency, Hinge & Brackett, Diana Dors, Regina Fong, Adrella, The Trollettes and Lola Lasagne. In the late 1990s Jonathan Hellyer’s residency as The Dame Edna Experience graced the RVT stage for 18 years playing to a packed out, at capacity audiences every Sunday and Bank Holiday weekends. It is also the venue that Freddie Mercury and Kenny Everett reportedly took Princess Diana for a night out in disguise and Dame Helen Mirren brought her godson for a relaxed family night out.


----------



## baldkev (22 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> This is why I ride a 160mm travel full suss Ebike. It's ultra comfortable and i can ride over anything.View attachment 124644



If thats your actual bike triton, send me your address and I'll buy you one of those flipout bike stands, they are more reliable than twigs


----------



## baldkev (22 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Are you suggesting that they should wear their unwashed underpants over their faces? Is that what they do in Cornwall?


Only on sundays!
Here in devon we do it on saturday night, just so you can work out whos cornish and who's devonian


----------



## TRITON (22 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> If thats your actual bike triton, send me your address and I'll buy you one of those flipout bike stands, they are more reliable than twigs


It's not my actual actual bike, just a pic from the web. But it is the same year(2022), model and colour as mine.
Mine is all covered in dirt and panniers and stuff. That one at least looks clean.

I wouldn't have a flip out stand even if it was being bought for me. Hideous things. Too reminiscent of nasty 70's commuters.


----------



## Pineapple (22 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> So if I am in a wheelchair or ride mobility scooter I should be registered and insured? What about a skateboard? Rollerblades? If I push a wheelbarrow full of bricks down the street to the neighbors, do I need a license for that?
> 
> I would swap "wheels" for "motor over .5Kw", which is pretty close to the rules now.


I have an 800 Watt mobility scooter...DVLA have registered the VIN. & Issued a V5C Log-Book with a Registration Number which doesn't have to be displayed. It is Electrically-Propelled so Road-Tax is Free & Automatically Renewed each year. I have a driving licence, but I don't really need one to ride it...Insurance is Optional. Crash Helmet is not required. It has a top speed of 8mph.
Regarding skateboards, rollerblades & electric scooters & electric cycles ...etc. - - - I think that it is high time that DVLA were Dragged - Kicking & Screaming if necessary, into the 21st century ! - I live in a very hilly area so I bought a 500 Watt Electric bicycle, so that I could go up hills on it. It has a top-speed of 20mph.
It cost me £2000.oo but DVLA have turned it into a white elephant by declaring it a "MOPED" It needs an MOT test done by a special DVSA test examiner.
It will need Registration, Number-Plates, Lights & Indicators, Insurance & a Crash-Helmet........They have made it Effectively Unuseable. ( and unsellable too ! )
REFER TO = Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance


----------



## paulrbarnard (22 Dec 2021)

Pineapple said:


> I have an 800 Watt mobility scooter...DVLA have registered the VIN. & Issued a V5C Log-Book with a Registration Number which doesn't have to be displayed. It is Electrically-Propelled so Road-Tax is Free & Automatically Renewed each year. I have a driving licence, but I don't really need one to ride it...Insurance is Optional. Crash Helmet is not required. It has a top speed of 8mph.
> Regarding skateboards, rollerblades & electric scooters & electric cycles ...etc. - - - I think that it is high time that DVLA were Dragged - Kicking & Screaming if necessary, into the 21st century ! - I live in a very hilly area so I bought a 500 Watt Electric bicycle, so that I could go up hills on it. It has a top-speed of 20mph.
> It cost me £2000.oo but DVLA have turned it into a white elephant by declaring it a "MOPED" It needs an MOT test done by a special DVSA test examiner.
> It will need Registration, Number-Plates, Lights & Indicators, Insurance & a Crash-Helmet........They have made it Effectively Unuseable. ( and unsellable too ! )
> REFER TO = Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance


It’s unfortunate that you have a bike you can’t use but frankly I think the ebike limitations are absolutely fine as they are. I certainly don’t want to see ebike that are powered by the users thumb rather than providing pedalling assistance. Those higher powered and non pedalling ebike are to all intents and purposes mopeds so need to remain in that same category. Can you imagine the carnage caused by unlicensed ebike/mopeds on shared use cycleways?


----------



## sirocosm (22 Dec 2021)

Pineapple said:


> I have an 800 Watt mobility scooter...DVLA have registered the VIN. & Issued a V5C Log-Book with a Registration Number which doesn't have to be displayed. It is Electrically-Propelled so Road-Tax is Free & Automatically Renewed each year. I have a driving licence, but I don't really need one to ride it...Insurance is Optional. Crash Helmet is not required. It has a top speed of 8mph.
> Regarding skateboards, rollerblades & electric scooters & electric cycles ...etc. - - - I think that it is high time that DVLA were Dragged - Kicking & Screaming if necessary, into the 21st century ! - I live in a very hilly area so I bought a 500 Watt Electric bicycle, so that I could go up hills on it. It has a top-speed of 20mph.
> It cost me £2000.oo but DVLA have turned it into a white elephant by declaring it a "MOPED" It needs an MOT test done by a special DVSA test examiner.
> It will need Registration, Number-Plates, Lights & Indicators, Insurance & a Crash-Helmet........They have made it Effectively Unuseable. ( and unsellable too ! )
> REFER TO = Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance



For the eBike you might be able to modify it reduce its power to 250w, but it just shows how silly the rules are. And what is the reason for requiring pedals? It automatically disqualifies electric scooters, skateboards, etc. for no good reason. Why isn't the speed limit of 15mph good enough?

They pretend they are interested in green transportation and saving the climate, but what they are really interested in is controlling what people are allowed to do.


----------



## baldkev (22 Dec 2021)

As paul said though, there has to be a line.... there will always be people who want the line moved! But no, if a 20mph ebike isnt covered by the rules, neither is a pit bike or monkey bike ( i got chased a few times when i was in my 20s  )


----------



## sirocosm (22 Dec 2021)

I am fine with limits if they are directly related to safety. Currently, an electric bike is limited to 25kmh. That seems reasonable, but I don't really see any safety benefit to require pedals, or to limit the wattage to something so small. What if you live in a hilly area like Pineapple? What if you have a cargo bike and use it to haul the kids to school? or for shopping? What if you have a bad knee and can't pedal? When the DVLA is getting involved in licensing mobility scooters, it kind of tells you there is a problem, no?


----------



## paulrbarnard (22 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> I am fine with limits if they are directly related to safety. Currently, an electric bike is limited to 25kmh. That seems reasonable, but I don't really see any safety benefit to require pedals, or to limit the wattage to something so small. What if you live in a hilly area like Pineapple? What if you have a cargo bike and use it to haul the kids to school? or for shopping? What if you have a bad knee and can't pedal? When the DVLA is getting involved in licensing mobility scooters, it kind of tells you there is a problem, no?



An ebike is only supposed to provide assistance. It is not supposed to provide all the power. On a legal ebike you have to be turning the pedels for the electric motor to provide assistance. Any ebike with a throttle (thumb switch or twist grip) is not actually an ebike. This is why the eScooters were such a big issue when they started showing up. They had to introduce temporary law changes to permit them in the trials. Because they have a throttle they are classed as motorised vehicles and can not be used on cycle paths etc.
I'm all for the power assist ebikes but absolutely against the ebikes with a throttle. They are motor bikes, albeit the motor is electric. The problem is that people have a completely different attitude when on something with a throttle vs them providing some of the motive force. With a throttle the tendency is to crank it wide open all the time, where as with an assisted bike it's only topping up what you provide.


----------



## sirocosm (22 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> An ebike is only supposed to provide assistance. It is not supposed to provide all the power. On a legal ebike you have to be turning the pedels for the electric motor to provide assistance.



I am struggling to understand the logic that if you are not pedaling and have a throttle then somehow it is more dangerous. Because you are not going to be able to control yourself and are going to go full speed (15 mph) all the time? But somehow if you have pedals then you are magically going to be transformed into a responsible rider? That is just silly. 

The law is arbitrary, and the arrival of e-scooters has shown why. FWIW in Saskatchewan the limit for an electric bicycle is 500w, you don't have to pedal, and it cannot go faster than 32km/h on level ground. You need to be 14 or over to ride one and you need a helmet, but other than that, they are treated no different than a regular bicycle. No driving license or registration required (and no tax). 

Statistically, they are probably less dangerous then push bikes because you have to wear a helmet. Thinking about it, it would be huge step forward if they made e-scooters under 15mph legal with the proviso that you have to wear a helmet to ride one.


----------



## sploo (22 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> I am struggling to understand the logic that if you are not pedaling and have a throttle then somehow it is more dangerous. Because you are not going to be able to control yourself and are going to go full speed (15 mph) all the time? But somehow if you have pedals then you are magically going to be transformed into a responsible rider? That is just silly.


I can understand the logic that an eBike is supposed to supplement your effort rather than supply the propulsion (hence only applying power when you spin the pedals). Well, unless you're trying to cheat at the Tour de France, obviously


----------



## Blackswanwood (22 Dec 2021)

I guess however the criteria is set for what constitutes which category of bike there will be different opinions. The current criteria looks pretty easy to follow and logical to me.


----------



## baldkev (22 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> I am struggling to understand the logic that if you are not pedaling and have a throttle then somehow it is more dangerous.



I get both sides of the argument...
When i was a lot younger, those minimotos where just coming out, so i bought 2 ( 1 for me, 1 for my girlfriend ) we could fit both in the boot of my car. She lived in chichester and we used to take them to slindon pits for a whizz around. And sometimes multistory carparks at night time  and i got chased along the road from chichester to bognor regis by a copper . When he stopped us ( it wasnt the first time we'd been pulled ) he went off on one about no insurance, no tax, no mot etc etc.... i apologised, said we would push them home and he let us off. As soon as he was out if sight, we got back on and whizzed around again.

And thats the point. They were harmless. If i hit a car, it might dent the car but i wouldnt hurt the passengers. It'd do a lot if damage to me in my sunglasses having fun with my knees up around my ears  but where do you draw the line? Its a powered vehicle. The law has to apply.

We actually speed tested them, highly scientific ( i throttled it open while a mate followed behind in a chavved out escort ) i hit 43mph ish 

Any powered vehicle on a public road has to be regulated.


----------



## kinverkid (22 Dec 2021)

Is there a 'Best Post of the Year' award. This one has gone all-over-the-place and as a runner, walker, cyclist and driver I've enjoyed, learned and laughed with this one the most.
Gary


----------



## Cabinetman (22 Dec 2021)

kinverkid said:


> Is there a 'Best Post of the Year' award. This one has gone all-over-the-place and as a runner, walker, cyclist and driver I've enjoyed, learned and laughed with this one the most.
> Gary


Ooh, yes please!


----------



## croft36 (23 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> I am fine with limits if they are directly related to safety. Currently, an electric bike is limited to 25kmh. That seems reasonable, but I don't really see any safety benefit to require pedals, or to limit the wattage to something so small. What if you live in a hilly area like Pineapple? What if you have a cargo bike and use it to haul the kids to school? or for shopping? What if you have a bad knee and can't pedal? When the DVLA is getting involved in licensing mobility scooters, it kind of tells you there is a problem, no?


I know nothing about electric bikes but I don’t understand why there needs to be a restriction on speed AND power! If the restriction were just on speed, extra power would be a great for those in hilly areas or dodgy knees etc? Or am I missing the point?


----------



## Blackswanwood (23 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> And thats the point. They were harmless. If i hit a car, it might dent the car but i wouldnt hurt the passengers.


Not sure I agree that they are harmless. A dented car is harm but worse is if a pedestrian is struck.


----------



## baldkev (23 Dec 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Not sure I agree that they are harmless. A dented car is harm but worse is if a pedestrian is struck.


True

Edit to add: maybe thats the same thing , in that, i didnt see any harm in it at the time because i liked it and it was fun, so it suited me to ignore the issues of tax, insurance etc...... the same as a powered cycle, which is not being cycled, therefore a motorbike


----------



## Blackswanwood (23 Dec 2021)

Just so you don't think I'm a boring stiff @baldkev there are plenty of things I did with a similar mindset in my youth


----------



## paulrbarnard (23 Dec 2021)

croft36 said:


> I know nothing about electric bikes but I don’t understand why there needs to be a restriction on speed AND power! If the restriction were just on speed, extra power would be a great for those in hilly areas or dodgy knees etc? Or am I missing the point?


Power in electric vehicle terms usualy has a directly relationship to acceleration. You only have to look at the 0-60 times for electric cars to see this. For a recent ebike example look at the press coverage when Simon Cowell 'crashed' his ebike (actually not a UK ebike it was one of the high powered ones with a throttle). Basicly he hit the throttle and lost control. Those who have used vehicles with a thumb throttle will know only too well that the4y are easy to hit in error. I have an eScooter in my China office for getting about when I am there and have had a number of situations where acceleration and traction have had disagreements.

In the interests of disclosure like @Blackswanwood I was a right pain in the buttocks when I was younger. I rode trials bikes on the roads many years before I had a license, had cars and drove regularly for 5 years before taking a test, had motorbikes with exhausts that could be heard several miles away and generally made a nuisance of myself from the age of about twelve to twenty. With that acknowledged I have no issue with people stretching the boundaries as long as they are aware of it and face the consequences if it comes back to bite them. 

Back to the origional topic I am a very firm believer in protection of the most vunerable on our roads and fully support the new priority proposals. I'm happy to suffer a minor inconvenience to my time to ensure that someone else is, and more importantly feels, safe to use the roads. Anyone who doesn't see that basic principle is simply a selfish bully.


----------



## John Brown (23 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Power in electric vehicle terms usualy has a directly relationship to acceleration. You only have to look at the 0-60 times for electric cars to see this. For a recent ebike example look at the press coverage when Simon Cowell 'crashed' his ebike (actually not a UK ebike it was one of the high powered ones with a throttle). Basicly he hit the throttle and lost control. Those who have used vehicles with a thumb throttle will know only too well that the4y are easy to hit in error. I have an eScooter in my China office for getting about when I am there and have had a number of situations where acceleration and traction have had disagreements.
> 
> In the interests of disclosure like @Blackswanwood I was a right pain in the buttocks when I was younger. I rode trials bikes on the roads many years before I had a license, had cars and drove regularly for 5 years before taking a test, had motorbikes with exhausts that could be heard several miles away and generally made a nuisance of myself from the age of about twelve to twenty. With that acknowledged I have no issue with people stretching the boundaries as long as they are aware of it and face the consequences if it comes back to bite them.
> 
> Back to the origional topic I am a very firm believer in protection of the most vunerable on our roads and fully support the new priority proposals. I'm happy to suffer a minor inconvenience to my time to ensure that someone else is, and more importantly feels, safe to use the roads. Anyone who doesn't see that basic principle is simply a selfish bully.


I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. I also did a lot of stupid things when I was young. That doesn't make it right, or defensible.
I don't cycle much these days, but if your patience is too thin to deal with a few cyclists, almost all of whom also own cars, and thus pay the non-existent road tax, then you probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.


----------



## Stevekane (23 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> I am struggling to understand the logic that if you are not pedaling and have a throttle then somehow it is more dangerous. Because you are not going to be able to control yourself and are going to go full speed (15 mph) all the time? But somehow if you have pedals then you are magically going to be transformed into a responsible rider? That is just silly.
> 
> The law is arbitrary, and the arrival of e-scooters has shown why. FWIW in Saskatchewan the limit for an electric bicycle is 500w, you don't have to pedal, and it cannot go faster than 32km/h on level ground. You need to be 14 or over to ride one and you need a helmet, but other than that, they are treated no different than a regular bicycle. No driving license or registration required (and no tax).
> 
> Statistically, they are probably less dangerous then push bikes because you have to wear a helmet. Thinking about it, it would be huge step forward if they made e-scooters under 15mph legal with the proviso that you have to wear a helmet to ride one.


And I would guess that as a consequence of these “light touch” regulations they will be popular, and thats perhaps what we should be trying to achieve, a transformation of our transport habits which because they are new and different will need adjusting to,,just as it was when cars replaced horses. IMO regulations are not the way to go if you want to encourage something.
Steve.


----------



## baldkev (23 Dec 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Just so you don't think I'm a boring stiff @baldkev there are plenty of things I did with a similar mindset in my youth



Not at all, it was a valid point. I think at times i found reasons to excuse myself for the things i did ( like the minimotos being 'harmless fun' )


----------



## Recky33 (24 Dec 2021)

Remember when your mum told you not to play on the road because there were big heavy things on them that would really really hurt you, why is it that as soon as you get a push bike/e-scooter etc you forget this basic knowledge


----------



## Terry - Somerset (24 Dec 2021)

Electric bikes and scooters generally go no faster than their leg powered equivalents - the risk of personal injury or damage is little different. There is no good rationale for treating them differently from a registration or regulation perspective. Both should be legal at speeds up to (say) 20mph.

Cycling is greener, healthier and cheaper than motoring - rightly encouraged. Regulation and taxation will deter many, and the young may never bother even to take their first bike ride.

There is little benefit in regulation where the resolve to enforce the law is lacking. The police almost completely failed to uphold most Covid regulations where there was a direct risk to life, rarely attend or do anything about trivial theft etc. Not criticising the police who may be under-resourced.

Road or vehicle taxes all go direct to Treasury and are not directly allocated to spend on roads. Taxation policy is designed to (a) in aggregate raise sufficient to fund public expenditure, (b) at least partially recognise the capacity to pay, and (c) moderate behaviours.

In summary - registration and taxation schemes will (a) reduce "greener" behaviours, (b) unlikely to be consistently enforced, (c) raise revenue that may not even cover administration costs. A waste of time and effort, no matter how emotive.

The solution - motorists to fit dash cams etc. Courts to recognise them as evidence in settling any claims rather than simply assuming blame is based on an arbitrary hierarchy.


----------



## Spectric (24 Dec 2021)

Pineapple said:


> but DVLA have turned it into a white elephant by declaring it a "MOPED"


Brings back memories, once upon a time your moped had to have pedals to be classed as a moped and be ok to use by a sixteen year old, think Raleigh.








and could be pedaled like a bike so can see where they are coming from.


----------



## John Brown (24 Dec 2021)

I think the thing is, if you can ride a bike, then you almost instinctively stop pedalling in a danger situation. If you just have a handlebar mounted throttle, you could get into more trouble.


----------



## baldkev (24 Dec 2021)

If you had an 'ebike' that was just motor driven, any motorcyclist would be wondering why the ebike is untaxed, un mot'd and uninsured.... it would start with low powered moped owners saying " well hang on, why should i have to abide by the law when they don't " and then there's the inevitable ebike owners who find a workaround to de_restrict the speed ( why wouldnt you?? ) and so again, its about where do you draw the line? There cant be any leeway for mopeds because then other bikers will kick off.

Ultimately if its powered and on a highway, it needs at least, a yearly safety check ( other road vehicles have mot ) and insurance..... maybe even a licence


----------



## John Brown (24 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> Brings back memories, once upon a time your moped had to have pedals to be classed as a moped and be ok to use by a sixteen year old, think Raleigh.
> 
> 
> View attachment 124998
> ...


That does bring back memories. I had a Norman Nippy.


----------



## Geoff_S (26 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> Except they don't tax electric cars, although they still need to be registered.


Technically, electric cars are taxed, but they are taxed nothing.

And if you don't pay it, you get fined.

I only know this because I get a reminder each year to pay nothing, or else.


----------



## ian33a (26 Dec 2021)

Geoff_S said:


> Technically, electric cars are taxed, but they are taxed nothing.
> 
> And if you don't pay it, you get fined.
> 
> I only know this because I get a reminder each year to pay nothing, or else.



I guess it’s just a matter of time before electric cars come with built in telematics (or something similar) and taxation will be based upon distance travelled. The same may start to happen with ICE, albeit at different rates so as to discourage fossil fuel travel and levy higher amounts into the treasury.


----------



## sirocosm (26 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> If you had an 'ebike' that was just motor driven, any motorcyclist would be wondering why the ebike is untaxed, un mot'd and uninsured.... it would start with low powered moped owners saying " well hang on, why should i have to abide by the law when they don't " and then there's the inevitable ebike owners who find a workaround to de_restrict the speed ( why wouldnt you?? ) and so again, its about where do you draw the line? There cant be any leeway for mopeds because then other bikers will kick off.
> 
> Ultimately if its powered and on a highway, it needs at least, a yearly safety check ( other road vehicles have mot ) and insurance..... maybe even a licence



By the same logic, there would already be lots of overpowered pedelecs running around, that are > 250w or can go faster than 15mph.

"Powered" bicycles are already allowed up to 250W and below 15 mph. The problem is the silly requirement to have pedals, which effectively bans e-scooters for no good reason.


----------



## TRITON (26 Dec 2021)

paulrbarnard said:


> Power in electric vehicle terms usualy has a directly relationship to acceleration. You only have to look at the 0-60 times for electric cars to see this. For a recent ebike example look at the press coverage when Simon Cowell 'crashed' his ebike (actually not a UK ebike it was one of the high powered ones with a throttle). Basicly he hit the throttle and lost control. Those who have used vehicles with a thumb throttle will know only too well that the4y are easy to hit in error. I have an eScooter in my China office for getting about when I am there and have had a number of situations where acceleration and traction have had disagreements.
> 
> In the interests of disclosure like @Blackswanwood I was a right pain in the buttocks when I was younger. I rode trials bikes on the roads many years before I had a license, had cars and drove regularly for 5 years before taking a test, had motorbikes with exhausts that could be heard several miles away and generally made a nuisance of myself from the age of about twelve to twenty. With that acknowledged I have no issue with people stretching the boundaries as long as they are aware of it and face the consequences if it comes back to bite them.
> 
> Back to the origional topic I am a very firm believer in protection of the most vunerable on our roads and fully support the new priority proposals. I'm happy to suffer a minor inconvenience to my time to ensure that someone else is, and more importantly feels, safe to use the roads. Anyone who doesn't see that basic principle is simply a selfish bully.


You sound a bit disreputable there Paul


----------



## baldkev (26 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> By the same logic, there would already be lots of overpowered pedelecs running around, that are > 250w or can go faster than 15mph.
> 
> "Powered" bicycles are already allowed up to 250W and below 15 mph. The problem is the silly requirement to have pedals, which effectively bans e-scooters for no good reason.




Its not for no good reason, just that you dont want to see the reason....... its not a bicycle if you dont cycle it. Obviously it a powered vehicle. Its clearly about where you draw a line, as i said above, those who are in favour of these 'ebikes' that arent bicycles dont want to see them regulated in any way, just like i didnt want my minimoto being persecuted for being fun.....


----------



## sirocosm (26 Dec 2021)

baldkev said:


> Its not for no good reason, just that you dont want to see the reason....... its not a bicycle if you dont cycle it. Obviously it a powered vehicle. Its clearly about where you draw a line, as i said above, those who are in favour of these 'ebikes' that arent bicycles dont want to see them regulated in any way, just like i didnt want my minimoto being persecuted for being fun.....



Why is it so important to "cycle"? I have not seen any compelling reason why pedaling makes any difference from a safety perspective, and the rule essentially bans all other forms of similarly low powered transportation, such as e-Scooters. Restrictions on power/speed/acceleration make sense, but the bit about pedals is silly, and arbitrary. 

In any case times are changing, and more and more people are looking for alternatives to cars, and you'll have a hard time convincing me that the government has a legitimate reason to regulate "vehicles" that go under 15mph. A fit person can sprint that fast for short periods.


----------



## baldkev (27 Dec 2021)

sirocosm said:


> Why is it so important to "cycle"?



Its not important to me, but its about a distinction.... a moped was called a moped because it was a motor powered pedal bike. This is no longer true of modern 'mopeds' or scooters.

If you cycled on a standard bike, theres no tax or requirement for insurance etc and as far as im aware, never has been. Pedal bikes have been around since 18something ( i think ). This should stay that way, its the best transport for those who can in terms of environmentally. 

You just cant have roadgoing vehicles that arent at the very least, checked periodically for roadworthiness. I am not advocating taxing everything that moves ( i personally think we are wayyyyy over taxed as it is, but our country and the way we have everything set up, costs so much to run )
Whatever way you look at it, theres no clear boundary, but there will have to be. And its likely that they will be regulated in some way, as a blanket measure at some point


----------



## paulrbarnard (27 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> You sound a bit disreputable there Paul


It was pretty much par for the course for kids who grew up in the countryside. The local policeman knew us all by name and would generally turn up at our house when someone reported a problem with motorbikes. Heck my youngest brother was stopped by a policeman when he was riding his minimoto on a road in Weston-Super-Mare. He was three at the time. 
I did switch completely the other way and certainly don’t jump red lights on my bike. 
I am feeling somewhat contrite right now as I have just received a speeding ticket. My first motoring offence since 1990, 26 in a 20 limit. I’ve not even had a parking ticket in that time.


----------



## Terry - Somerset (27 Dec 2021)

Electric Nice to note that UK law remains responsive to changes in technology, social needs, environment etc:

_*According to 1835, UK Highway Act riding a Personal Light Electric Vehicle on public roads is illegal. Electric scooters and other electric-driven vehicles fall into the category of PLEVs, so you can not ride them on public roads. *_

Electric scooters are capable of independent motion. Assisted electric bikes need pedals. Electric bike with more a powerful motor without pedals are mopeds requiring helmets, insurance, registration etc.

Perhaps in 1835 it was felt electric vehicles may frighten the horses, just as the railways clearly caused cattle to miscarry and dry up. Ever mindful of public safety, Westminster clearly taken note of the aphorism "act in haste, repent at leisure".


----------



## pidgeonpost (28 Dec 2021)

TKB said:


> ….and I thought this was a woodworking forum? Happy Christmas shavings all


Whatever gave you that idea? 
But yes, Merry Christmas all. Now logout and get yourselves back in the shed using those new tools you convinced yourself*, partner*, wife*, live-in-lover* that you couldn't manage without. 

*Delete as necessary.


----------

