# Metal working files - some advice please



## The Wood Butcher (21 Mar 2011)

I'm finding myself doing more and more metalwork on the jobs I'm doing, and I wanted to sort out the blunt and random collection of old files that kick around my tool box.

Since most of them are rubbish I decided I'd replace them with some of the Nicholson ones that are cheap and easy to find on Ebay, but I'm completely confused by the range available.

If any kind member could recommend a basic set of sizes and cuts for furniture component scale work in steel, stainless and aluminium I'd be much obliged.


----------



## Racers (21 Mar 2011)

Hi,

Well it all depends on what you want to do but I would get flat, half round, round, triangular, square in 6 and posibly 10 inch lengths. 
Flat you should to get turnip, second and smooth the others second and smooth.

Have a look here its where I got mine from and can recommend them http://www.proopsbrothers.com/acatalog/ ... es_39.html


Pete


----------



## The Wood Butcher (21 Mar 2011)

Excellent, that's the sort of info I'm after. Now, what about single and double cut, and why do the Swiss have their own kind of file...


----------



## jasonB (21 Mar 2011)

Myself I would go with a hand file not a flat file, the flat is tapered and cuts on both edges whereas the Hand is parallel and has a safety edge wich is bery useful when working to an adjacent edge. 

The Hand file will be the most used so 6, 8 and 10 would all be useful, 6&10half round, 6" round, triangle and square. A pillar file or two can also be useful.

As for cut I'd get them all double with the 10" hand in turnip and second cut, the rest in second cut and a couple of the smaller hand files also in smooth.

If you are going to use any of these files on aluminium then rub some chalk into the teeth to stop them clogging. Also worth getting a file card for cleaning them, its like a short haired wire brush

Jason


----------



## brihol (21 Mar 2011)

The Wood Butcher":1slfrjai said:


> Excellent, that's the sort of info I'm after. Now, what about single and double cut, and why do the Swiss have their own kind of file...


They have their own excellent brands of file such as Grobet, but the usual swiss files are the small ones used in fine model making and fettling work


----------



## dickm (21 Mar 2011)

If you are filing aluminium, then the "normal" types of file can clog very easily. You may want to get one or two Dreadnought files for this, which have much coarser single cut teeth specifically for aluminium and soft alloys.


----------



## AES (21 Mar 2011)

Dear Wood Butcher,

Files (for metal) is something I know a fair bit about. I agree with most of the above advice but need to add a couple of points which you should definitely also consider IMHO:

1. As somoene above has already said "Swiss files" are (usually) those little files used for high precision/small work pieces. I can't seeing you needing any of those - a couple or 3 small warding files are the smallest you need for any "normal" woodworking/DIY jobs - get a flat, a half round, and a triangular. BUT (because you said "why do the Swiss files have a special cut?" and the above "normal Swiss files do not have a different cut) then you MAY be talking about a special file which will remove huge amounts of aluminium very quickly and with (almost) no clogging up. The name of the manufacturer is Baiter and they are in Switzerland. I'm not sure if they are sold in UK but if not send me a PM and I can get you 1 or 2 to post it to you. Here they cost about 15 quid for a 12 inch/30 cm size but you'll NEVER wear it out (unless you damage it, see below).
2. Patience and Nicholson make VERY good files, but even better for at least some of the types mwentioned above are Bahco of Sweden. In particular their version of the Dreadnought (single cut) is a SUPERB cutting device and the same 1 (metal working) file can also be used for rough-shaping wood. Works better than a Surform. Also from Bahco go for the double cut file which has the "2nd cut" as a "wavy line" running more or less along the length of the file, rather the the "normal" X pattern 2nd cut. They clog much less than the X pattern double cuts. When I last lived in UK (25 years ago) Bahco was pretty easy to find in "good" tool shops. 
3. Any time you want a real NICE finish on any metal, especially on aluminium, use ordinary chalk plus a few drops of oil - lovely result.
4. Do buy a "scratch card" for cleaning the files off (after EVERY use please!), but for the finer files an ordinary brass brush as used on suede shoes works even better.
5. Get files with attached plastic handles if you like, but some of the above will probably only come with plain tangs, so DO use wooden handles, WITH metal ferrules they are much cheaper than jabbing a file tang into a wrist artery!
6. And finally PLEASE, PLEASE, do NOT just chuck files into your toolbox where they can bang together. Being dead hard, nothing will knacker a file quicker than that, and especially in a van or something, that can be in a matter of minutes - really. Use something like a chisels tool roll and put just 1 (never 2) files into each pocket, or make up something out of plastic foam or even just newspaper for temporary use. As a matter of interest my files never travel - they sit in a big tool drawer which is not only foam lined on the bottom but which has foam "partitions" separating each and every file. Definitely not being "pedantic" or nit-picking here - this is time well spent in protecting what should be a life time investment.

Sorry if any of the above is teaching "Grany to suck eggs" but as a complete ignoramus about Sliding Compound Mitre Saw (amongst many other things)! when I asked some Q's here a few weeks back I got such a lot of helpful and obviously competent replies that I'm now pleased to return the compliment now that a Q has come up that I DO know something about.

Best of luck

Krgds
AES


----------



## AES (21 Mar 2011)

Wood Butcher,

Re my last post (above, just a few minutes ago) - sorry a rush of blood (or something) to what passes for my brain - in all the above for Bahco please read Oberg. Don't know what I was thinking of, sorry - I don't think Bahco even makes files!
Krgds
AES


----------



## The Wood Butcher (21 Mar 2011)

Hi AES

It looks like Bahco bought Oberg, and still offer the Oberg cut dreadnought, so I'll take a look at getting one of those. I'm also going to research whether they still offer the double cut you mention.

As for the rest of your info it's all very welcome and much appreciated.


----------



## Harbo (22 Mar 2011)

Bahco still make files - well at least they have their name stamped on them?  

I bought a nice set from Workshop Heaven a couple of years ago.


Rod


----------



## Modernist (22 Mar 2011)

+1 for a dreadnought


----------



## hemdale (15 Jan 2017)

Hello AES,

Woud you be able to let me know which file you have from Bahco (see links below).

http://www.bahco.com/en-gb/p/hand-file/ ... -51-72-7f/

http://www.bahco.com/en-gb/p/oberg-cut/ ... -f5-f7-3f/

Many thanks


----------



## Bm101 (15 Jan 2017)

files-bahco-or-vallorbe-t99940.html
An earlier thread I posted re files. Some useful answers especially Mr C's.
I went for the Vallorbe files (from axminster because I was there on holiday) in the end. I have to say, six months down the line they are a joy to use. I bought a few. Sharp and well cut. The difference between my old second hand files is marked. From the lot I bought only one had nicks in the blank side which i ground out, excellent tools off the shelf. I look after them like plane blades, never store them together in a drawer/bag etc. I love em. They go through bronze and brass like a pig through bone.


----------



## AES (15 Jan 2017)

Hullo hemdale. Personally I have some of the Oberg cut (the 2nd link you provided). They're 1st class, and if treated carefully they don't wear out whatever metals you use them on - UNLESS you let them bang about unprotected in the toolbox/bag/drawer. Mine BTW came without handles moulded on (which personally I prefer, I use mainly old fashioned round wooden ones).

BTW, those Oberg Cut files are pretty good on ali too, though a Dreadnought is a good idea if you're working lots of it. Also BTW, the tip above about using chalk when cutting ali is a good one, but I also use a thin-bladed craft knife to clear the shiny, clogged up teeth after EVERY use with ali! Quite therapeutic and doesn't take anywhere as long as you'd think.

To echo the post immediately above this one, I also several Vallorbe files in various sizes and cuts. Also excellent.

It's many years since I've bought any files so I've no idea what current prices are like, but I have a feeling that both Oberg/Bahco and Vallorbe will NOT be cheap. OTOH, if taken care of they'll last a lifetime.

HTH

AES.


----------



## Aden30mm (17 Jan 2017)

Beware of some Bahco files are not Swiss, I had to buy one a month ago, It was stamped Bahco - Portugal. 

Prompted me to upgrade my old crowfoot's file set for 250mm Vallorbe. Quite impressed with quality and their cut.

I agree with AES wood handles are best, I suspect he also spend extended time hacking & filing.


----------



## AES (17 Jan 2017)

Yes, he (AES) did spend some time filing and hack sawing Aden 30mm!!!! (HATED it at the time, but it's a "hand skill" once learnt never forgotten - a bit like riding a bike - and has turned out to be VERY useful for many years later).

Just for accuracy, Bahco are not Swiss but Swedish (slight difference!).

When I was professionally involved with tool buying for a short while back in the '70s, Sandvik was responsible for hack saw blades, amongst other things (just as good as the "Eclipse" brand, James A. Neill, UK); Oberg for files (just as good as Vallorbe, Swiss), and Bahco for "general stuff" like adjustable spanners. They were all "separate" Swedish companies but also some sort of part of the overall "Sandvik Grouping", (not sure exactly what that commercial arrangement was). It seems that the management/marketing flower arrangers have been "at them" since then, as from various posts here those differentials don't seem to exist any more - or at least the "labelling" has all been changed now.

Re making the files in Portugal, when I visited their Swedish factory (in the '70,s as I say) Oberg claimed that EVERY single file was inspected by hand during & after manufacture. If now wholly or partly made in Portugal then it shouldn't make a lot of difference, PROVIDED the material spec/s, heat treatments, and QC arrangements remain as before. So IF the same, there's no reason why their products should not be as good as ever.

Re the earlier question, most files with 2 cuts have these in straight, angled lines across the file width to make 60 degrees cutting edges. Oberg made many such files with this basic cut but the "Oberg Cut" range of files are/were different - they have 1 set of angled straight line cuts, but the 2nd cut line is not straight but gently curved like a widely opened out S, running almost fore and aft along the length of the file. They claimed that this promoted much better chip breaker/clearance than with conventionally cut files, especially when working with soft metals like ali, or even (at a pinch), wood. Highly recommended IMHO.

It's all a bit hard to picture, and sorry, I'm in the middle of re-wiring my cellar shop right now, so can't get to them easily, but hopefully by the weekend I'll try to post a pic or 2 of those files with the special cut - I have several, they are YEARS old, have had a LOT of use, and are still far from worn out.

HTH

AES


----------



## AES (22 Jan 2017)

Hullo again hemdale, below are the file pix I promised the other day:


----------



## AES (22 Jan 2017)

Sorry, I pressed the "Submit" button before I'd finished!

The 2 files LH & C are the Bahco Cut files I mentioned the other day. The 1 on the R is a Swiss make called Baiter. I'd not heard of them before (certainly not as well known as Vallorbe) but my local excellent tool dealer (NOT the local DIY Emporium, but a place for "profis") had a set of 4 or 5 on special offer, so as files are to me like cramps to many ("you can't have too many") I bought them. Found them excellent, so bought the one on the right shown in the picture above. It's specially for working on ali and other soft stuff.

Below, some close ups:






Notice that the Oberg on the L is MUCH coarser than the one on the R of the pic. The one on the L is VERY coarse and VERY sharp, but is actually the very same "elongated S" chip breaker 2nd cut that I mention. Some wear showing on the LH file! The RH shows the weird cut better I think.

And here's that Baiter", also a special cut for ali, etc, which I also found very good:






Finally, I know I'm a bit of a "freak" when it comes to files, but IMHO they're expensive cutting tools, just the same as saws, lathe tools, router bits, or lathe tools - sometimes VERY expensive! So again IMHO, they deserve as much care and protection in storage as, say, chisels do.

Here's what I do - 1 of the drawers in my tool cabinet, lined with old plastic foam packing material and gaffer tape! (The above set of Baiter files are in the green plastic folder which you can see partly in the top RH of the drawer)






That's all probably more than you ever wanted (or needed) to know about files, but HTH anyway.  

AES


----------



## woodpig (22 Jan 2017)

I used to use files a lot before I got a milling machine but I haven't bought a file now for many years. Most of my ones are well known brands made in the UK or Europe and I've not had any issues with any of them. I've heard quite a few complaints made of modern files though, even well known brands not however made in their original country of manufacture. In theory it shouldn't matter where they are made provided they are made from good quality steel and correctly heat treated. I suspect therefore that one of these two elements may be missing from some modern files. I understand that many files are now made in South America, particularly Brazil and Mexico.


----------



## AES (22 Jan 2017)

Yup, I don't own a mill, which is probably why I value files so much - you can do virtually anything with them, given time and practice, (but NOT opening paint tins or stirring paint)!

I'd never heard of this Swiss brand Baiter before, have you? They're the only files I've bought in many a long year and must say they're excellent.

Just as you say, provided the materials spec and heat treatment cycles are OK, good quality files should come from just about anywhere, but files are such an "old fashioned" tool that I havn't heard any bad comments - just seen on-site blokes chucking the odd file into his tool bag (hammer) 

(There I go again).

AES


----------



## woodpig (22 Jan 2017)

I bought some Italian rasps a few years ago that seem pretty good. They are tiny ones which I think they called "needle rasps"!

No, not heard of Baiter before.


----------



## kevanf1 (30 Jan 2017)

I'm considering (actually I lie, I am going to) upgrading my metalworking files. I have settled on getting Bahco branded tools as I am impressed by the quality. To me it's like cutters and pliers and I don't even look at anything other than Knipex for them. I'm just not sure whether to get 14" length files or 12". When I worked in the metal fabricating business all of our files were 14" and they felt right. The ones I have currently are something like JCB brand??? and much shorter than those I remember. The JCB ones are pretty rubbish even though I've looked after them. So, any ideas please? 

Cheers.

Kevan


----------



## AES (30 Jan 2017)

Sorry, I've never even heard of the JCB brand so I can't help you there.

Re lengths, as a very general rule, I find "the longer the better" works for me, but in reality, as you'll see from the photo of my files storage above, I have a good mix, including the odd one or two at 4 inches, quite a few 6 inches, a few 8 inches, some 10 inches, and quite a few 12 and 14 inches. An awful lot depends on what work you're going to be doing, but basically, I think you can't have too many files if you do a lot of metal fabrication and don't have a milling machine.

And don't forget the "little" Swiss and warding files too.

HTH

AES


----------



## AES (30 Jan 2017)

@ woodpig:

Yeah, I got some small rasps a while ago, they were pretty cheap and seem pretty good. But I've no idea where they came from (no name on them).

The only rasps I own actually, though I do have (and sometimes use) two of those 1980's DIY Surform "files", one more or less file shaped and about 10 or 12 inches long, and a little one with a curved base.

AES


----------



## kevanf1 (30 Jan 2017)

AES":3pwwrgfv said:


> Sorry, I've never even heard of the JCB brand so I can't help you there.
> AES



Branded as JCB (JC Bamford) the digger excavator company based up the road from me in Leek, Staffordshire. Presumably because JCB are a proven company offering quality machinery somebody in the marketing department thought it would be good to have their name put on a set of files. To be fair they are not 'that' bad. It's just that they are not as good as ones I used in industry or even when I was at school and those were well worn out :shock: 

Kevan


----------



## hemdale (6 Feb 2017)

Thanks a lot AES, very helpful indeed !


----------

