# Buying First Lathe...Are Old British Machines the way to go?



## hartley (7 Mar 2016)

Hi, I wonder if anyone can help another newbie to woodturning make the important decision regarding the purchase of a lathe. 
Whilst I am not new to working with wood I have never turned it. 
After looking at what is on offer out there I have a small list of potential candidates. Do I go for something second-hand and British built, Union Graduate, Wadkin BZL, (I have two Wadkin BAOS machines in my workshop so favour this maker), or equivalent Dominion machine. Or do I opt for a new Far Eastern made machine? I have been looking at the Axminster AT1628VS and Jet 3520B.
If I go the second hand route I can see the pros as…
A)	initial purchase lower although I’d consider converting to variable speed at later date
B)	solid British build quality
and the cons…
A)	parts availability (but would that be an issue so long as you check all is well on purchase?)
B)	the machines mentioned have the motors near the floor, longer belt, does this make running the machine rougher and more noisy?
C)	New chucks may be an problem fitting to old machine
If I go the new Far Eastern route, the cons…
A)	The luxury of variable speed
B)	Motor close to spindle, is this an issue?
C)	It’s brand new…
The cons…
A)	Quality maybe poorer than the old British machines
B)	More expensive
I am aware that other maker’s machines may be suggested but I don’t really want to make what to me appears to be a difficult decision worse. My max budget is ideally around the £2000 mark including variable speed option but I know the Jet machine will exceed this, (another question, is the Jet worth the extra £1100 over the Axminster machine?). 
I have seen in the metal the two new machines and a Graduate but sadly other than photos not seen the Wadkin, (is it better than the Graduate?). I am also aware there is a bigger Wadkin, the RS suspect it is too big!
I would like to by an older British machine but are these new machines a better bet?
Sorry about the drawn out questions, but I want to get it right…
Hope you can help.
Derek


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## steve w (7 Mar 2016)

if i were buying again i would try and get Variable speed, i was unaware when i got my Graduate bowl lathe how much better it would be, to be honest i get a bit fed up messing with the belt so thinking of upgrading it to variable.


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## Jamie Copeland (7 Mar 2016)

Get yourself a Union Graduate and fit a cheap inventor. That's what've I've got and I love it.

Parts and chucks, etc aren't a problem at all. I can highly recommend old solid British engineering!


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## Jacob (7 Mar 2016)

Arundel J4. Best you can get. One went here for £25!.
Variable speed is nonsense, 3 speeds will do, 5 is luxury!

PS I sold my J4 and bought a Hegner HDB200XL been kicking myself ever since, what a bag of sh|te!! Sold it and bought a Record CL3 which was miles better than the Hegner but just not as refined as the Arundel

PS the big Union, Wadkins etc are another kettle of fish I know little about - except they go cheap on ebay esp if 3 phase.


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## Jacob (8 Mar 2016)

Actually for a starter I'd recommend the Record CL3. 5 speeds is good enough for everything. It's much heavier than I though it would be and well put together. 2nd hand £100 - £200 but check that the spindle threads aren't knackered as they were on mine. Take a new faceplate with you to try for fit.
Some crude details - the tommy bars don't slide through so you have to pack them with washers to set them, if they foul against the other bits


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Mar 2016)

"Variable speed is nonsense ..." Jacob

Most of Jacob's advice is sound. That bit isn't.


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## Jacob (8 Mar 2016)

phil.p":18jlef3r said:


> "Variable speed is nonsense ..." Jacob
> 
> Most of Jacob's advice is sound. That bit isn't.


Well on the Hegner the speed was incredibly variable - inverter and 3 pulleys, but unfortunately it didn't gear down as it would with a gear box or pulleys alone. No torque - at slow speeds and a large bowl you could stop it dead with a deep cut. 
I had visions of slow speed, high torque, big chippings flying over my shoulders, but it was not to be.
I'm quite happy with 5 speeds.


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## DennisCA (8 Mar 2016)

Inverter + pulleys, best of both worlds.


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## beech1948 (8 Mar 2016)

ts a well documented issue for inverters that as the speed of rotation decreases the torque decreases markedly. So the inverter maybe gives a slow speed of 50 rpm for a big chunk of wood but with no torgue so it is easy to stop the rotation with your chisel. Can be quite dangerous if the user is careless.

Inverters are a sound way to go but below 250 rpm are pretty useless to turn anything over a couple of inches thick. A challenge of technique over method.


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## Paul Hannaby (8 Mar 2016)

If you have pulleys and an inverter the effectiveness of any range is down to the selection of pulley ratios so I would disagree that they are no good below any particular speed. I'm not sure why anyone would run the lathe as slow as 250rpm for a 2 inch spindle anyway? Also, a good inverter can be programmed to compensate for the torque loss at slow speeds. 

As with any product, there are good and bad ones out there so it pays to do some research.


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## CHJ (8 Mar 2016)

beech1948":d54ecraa said:


> ....Inverters are a sound way to go but below 250 rpm are pretty useless to turn anything over a couple of inches thick.



That is a bit too general a statement, a great deal is dependant upon the invertor used, motor HP and invertor parameter set up, the better ones, unfortunately not always the cheapest, go a long way to mitigating the low torque at low speed.

I would not like to deliberately try to load mine to the point of stoppage at 150 RPM, it would certainly be more tool load than I'd be comfortable with on a 300mm blank. 

One would expect a combination of Invertor and pulley ratio selection to provide more than adequate torque, machines that don't I suspect are using the pulley ratio 'gearbox' to compensate for lower priced electronics and motor.


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## DTR (8 Mar 2016)

My lathe is old, British, and it is variable speed!







(sorry, that didn't help did it)


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## deema (8 Mar 2016)

I'm also a Union Grad man, and delighted with it. Solid as a rock.

Spare parts are not a problem (always seems to be stuff on auction site), you can get just about anything from:
LRE Engineering

They also sell new / reconditioned Union Grad lathes, and I understand that their variable speed machines are considered one of the best available. 

www.woodturninglathes.co.uk

So best of all worlds, and solid British built lathe, modern variable speed, spares easily available......not that you will need any!

I bought a secondhand machine and replaced the bearings and belt with new sealed for life high quality bearings rather than risk that they may have been damaged / belt having taken a set.


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## graduate_owner (8 Mar 2016)

I'm a union graduate owner too ( not that you could guess from my name). Mine is a bowl lathe and came with an original sanding table. I bought an Axminster Evolution chuck with O'Donnell jaws which I use mainly. The chuck alone cost more than the lathe. For spindle turning I have just upgraded from my old Myford ML 8 to a Viceroy with 3 phase and variable speed (£300 from ebay including revolving tail centre and 3 jaw engineering chuck as well as faceplate and rests). Both graduate and Viceroy have 1 1/2" spindles taking 3MT centres - good and strong.

I have heard that the weak point in some far east imports is the electronics involved in the variable speed but I have no experience of them. Anyhow my 2 lathes plus the Axminster chuck and jaws cost less than £700 all in and the inverter cost under £300 but I already had that for my milling machine etc.

I wouldn't change my set up for any Jet lathe.

K


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## beech1948 (8 Mar 2016)

CHJ,

Your message points out more than mine the complexity of using an inverter. Speed, motor, HP, weight of turned material etc.

I deliberately kept it simpler because the OP seemed to be at a beginner level.

I was also stung to send the message by the person above me who wrote "inverter + something" is the best. I strongly disagree with that advice.

Your most telling point however is not technical but economic. Most inverter buyers who are hobbyists will go for the cheapest far eastern device and not the best performing but more expensive device. Thus damning themselves to a low performance at low revs.

My choice would be a Euro built inverter but the costs are over £500 against a cheapy far eastern device at say £120 ish.


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## Wildman (8 Mar 2016)

there are a plethora of secondhand 3 phase motors that would run happily on an inverter, giving both torque and variable speed for a few hundred pounds a solidly built union graduate is well within your budget and often come up on fleabay. If you are not in a rush and want a decently engineered machine then wait for one. if you cannot wait to get started buy an old Coronet major and use it whilst awaiting your dream machine, the Major will not lose you any money when you come to sell it and may even make you a profit.


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## graduate_owner (8 Mar 2016)

As a matter of intetest there is a Viceroy on ebay at the moment, complete with 2 chucks and over 30 chisels for £595 or offers. I'm not suggesting you go for it but it might be worth looking at the listing to give you an idea. Item number 26230 4411366.
Just one point about the Viceroy - the spindle threads are not common. Inboard is 1 1/2 x 8, same as South Bend metal lathes. Outboard is a wierd 1 1/4 x 9 and I have never seen this anywhere else. I am going to have to cut the thread myself to make an adaptor to suit my Evolution chuck as I don't have an outboard faceplate for mine. Fortunately the one on ebay already has an outboard faceplate.

Just a few points on inverters. I agree with previous comments on cheap far east imports - get a quality one. Mine cost £300 for a 3HP gersion and is British made with telephone support (knowledgeable support too). Low revs can mean low torque but it also means a slow speed of rotation of the cooling fan. Try to keep the motor speed up and use the pulleys as necessary to achieve this. You still get variable speed but there will be some pulley changing.

The final point is you must avoid damp and dust getting at the inverter so either get an IP65 casing model (quite a bit more expensve but you might not need 3 HP so could cut the cost there), or make your own enclosure whch is what I did.

Edid - gersion? I meant version.
K


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## hartley (10 Mar 2016)

Hi, thank you for your replies


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## Jacob (14 Mar 2016)

Jacob":2nppqsoo said:


> Actually for a starter I'd recommend the Record C3. 5 speeds is good enough for everything. It's much heavier than I though it would be and well put together. 2nd hand £100 - £200 but check that the spindle threads aren't knacked as they were on mine. Take a new faceplate with you to try for fit.
> Some crude details - the tommy bars don't slide through so you have to pack them with washers to set them, if they foul against the other bits


Just realised - you don't need washers - you can just loosen them off and turn the nut by a facet or two to set the tommy bars where you want (within 60º), so that's OK.
It's a better lathe than I expected and I'd recommend them. And cheap second hand.


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## chipmunk (14 Mar 2016)

There are three potential draw-backs to buying old - British or not...

None of them are show-stoppers but have consequences that might not be obvious at first glance.

The first and foremost is that of trying to find accessories to fit the spindle thread. It may be that you restrict yourself to Sorby or the Versachuck for anything that will fit. It might be a BSW thread or an unusual metric thread (Tyme). It might be possible to get a new spindle made for your lathe but this will cost.

The second potential drawback is solvable but remember that for maximum comfort you may want to raise the lathe so that the centre-height is near elbow height. If you're tall like me, raising and levelling a couple of cwts of cast iron lathe may not be as easy as you think.

The third is that many old lathes were designed as spindle turning lathes rather than for bowl or chuck-based work (e.g. Long bed Graduate or Jubilee). They therefore have a pretty small over bed capacity and you need to resort to outboard turning for anything over that. It's worth remembering that this has the item turning the opposite way to a swivel headed lathe or conventional bowl lathe. Fitting a EVS system won't solve this in all cases either as the chuck can unscrew if you turn the lathe in the wrong direction (unless you have set screws holding the chuck on to the spindle).

HTH
Jon


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## Jacob (14 Mar 2016)

I'm sure you are right but the great explosion in fashionable new lathes with higher specs and ranges of add-ons has made some perfectly good older lathes very cheap and good value. An Arundel J4 plus loadsa bits and chucks went for £25 on ebay a bit back. It is still possible to do almost everything with an old lathe - you don't get that much added value with the posh new ones.


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## chipmunk (15 Mar 2016)

Hi Jacob,
Your example of the Arundel J4 makes my first point about chucks and accessories very nicely. Great if they're all included but if you need to buy anything then getting it to fit the M20x2.5 inboard and M24x2.5 LH outboard threads would be a real pain unless you have a metal lathe to rethread them.

It also chimes well with the third point quite nicely too. A 9" swing is pretty limited over the bed.

...but your point about added value of new lathes is also well taken. Fundamentally a lathe is just a motor driven spindle to attach wood to and a toolrest used for making stuff round - and that's hard to argue with.

Jon


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## Jacob (15 Mar 2016)

chipmunk":2ahry7w4 said:


> Hi Jacob,
> Your example of the Arundel J4 makes my first point about chucks and accessories very nicely. Great if they're all included but if you need to buy anything then getting it to fit the M20x2.5 inboard and M24x2.5 LH outboard threads would be a real pain unless you have a metal lathe to rethread them.
> 
> It also chimes well with the third point quite nicely too. A 9" swing is pretty limited over the bed.
> ...


Arundel is same thread as Record C3 as far as I recall. There are adaptors if necessary, for every thread in normal use.


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## chipmunk (15 Mar 2016)

Jacob":2pr87gq1 said:


> Arundel is same thread as Record C3 as far as I recall. There are adaptors if necessary, for every thread in normal use.



Are you sure? I found the information here...
http://www.lathes.co.uk/arundel/

"Probably the most popular (and affordable) Arundel was the 1960s to 1970s Model J4, made in Junior and Senior sizes and in Mk. 1 and Mk. 2 models. Although very similar in appearance, the Senior was of 6-inch centre height and the Junior 4.5". The Senior had an inboard spindle thread of M30 x 3.5 and an outboard of M20 x 2.5 while the Junior used an outboard of M20 x 2.5 and inboard M24 x 2.5."

M30x3.5 is obtainable but I'd be very surprised if the others are. The old Record lathes were all 3/4" x 16TPI.

On your last point, the crucial word is very much "normal" - IME there are lots of "abnormal" threads out there ;-)

Jon


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## Jacob (15 Mar 2016)

I'm fairly sure my J4 was 3/4 x 16 same as Record. Smaller on the outboard end. Could be wrong.


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## graduate_owner (15 Mar 2016)

This has turned out to be an interesting thread with lots of informed opinions being expressed.
There are indeed drawbacks to old lathes, and I mentioned the unusual outboard thread on my viceroy being 1 1/4 x 9 which I haven't seen used anywhere else. I don't have a faceplate so I am going to have to make up an adapter ( and I'm not looking forward to that job). However the issue of build quality really should not be underestimated. If the OP can afford a good quality new lathe then all well and good but if it's a case of a hobby rated far east import then it is a different scenario as the build quality may be questionable. A brand new, shiny lathe with whistles and bells and easily obtained accessories is of little use if the basic construction isn't up to the job and the tool doesn't stay the course.
I know there are more suppliers than Axmnster around, but once again I would like to quote Axmnster's recommended usage for hobby rated machinery - expected maximum annual usage of 100 hours. I would not expect lathes from other suppliers at a similar price to be much different in build quality. So as long as people appreciate what they are getting for their money, I suppose a hobby rated lathe will be fine and the choice is a matter of individual preference, but I have gone for solid, British and reliable (yes, and perhaps old, heavy, basic and not especially well - specified) since I could not justify spending the £1000 plus cost of a good quality new lathe.

Once again - you pays your money and you takes your choice, but don't forget the other saying - buy cheap, buy twice.


K


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## Random Orbital Bob (15 Mar 2016)

My turning club has about 60 ish members. There isn't a single pro turner amongst them and yet the quality of the work they turn out is absolutely outstanding. It's fair to say that the more experienced tend to have the more expensive bigger Jets or the Nova's, woodfasts et al but the majority buy readily available, mostly modern lathes with easily available accessories. Few have the necessary time or expertise to mess around having specialist parts engineered etc. When the time comes for them to turn, they want to get on with it. So....it is horses for courses but if you want to focus on turning and not mechanical engineering, there's little to compete with the ease of access, transport, flexibility and versatility with accessories of modern lathes.

I guess my point here is not to poo poo the older British classics but rather to balance out this thread with the message to newer turners that even a cheapy Far eastern mini lathe will have you popping out spindle work and small face plate projects that you can be proud of and will give quick, inexpensive access to the craft. There is no shame in taking an entry level view if your goal is to get on and learn turning and avoid the whole cast iron "behemoth" conundrum. If you find after 2 years or so that it's taken hold of you (it will), then you can dispose of your kit on the 2nd hand market and upgrade with much more knowledge.


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## graduate_owner (15 Mar 2016)

I agree with you Bob, there's nothing wrong with getting started on an inexpensive lathe, just as long as people know what they are getting. I can remember looking for a lathe over 40 years ago and there was practically nothing around on the second hand or diy market. I ended up getting an electric drill attachment (ghastly thing) before getting hold of my trusty old ML8 with a Peter Child 3 in 1 chuck. The availability of lathes today makes it so much easier for those wanting to try turning, and the accessories available is now mind boggling - and very welcome, even if it does mean we can now spend and spend ( after buying the lathe, that is).

K


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## markslathe (15 Mar 2016)

Coronet all the way.


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## chipmunk (16 Mar 2016)

markslathe":21vbe6eh said:


> Coronet all the way.



I'm not sure that Coronet represents the pinnacle of old British lathes IMHO.
Graduates, the big Wadkins or the VB36 and I'd be with you, but Coronet lathes? Really? 

Jon


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## markslathe (16 Mar 2016)

chipmunk":38wbjypr said:


> markslathe":38wbjypr said:
> 
> 
> > Coronet all the way.
> ...



Your probably right,but for a first lathe imo,its a very good grounding.i have no experience with other lathes as this is my first one,so tbh i know very little about them.


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## graduate_owner (18 Mar 2016)

Back to the issue of new or second hand, since the OP has a budget of £2000 I think the most sensible course of action would be to visit various turners and try things out. With that sort of money there are so many options that first hand experience would be the way to go. 

Anyone wanting to try a graduate bowl lathe ( outboard only at the moment) or a Viceroy ( inboard only), or indeed a Myford ML 8 are welcome to visit my tip of a workshop. I am at the end of the M4 and then about 24 miles up country. Bring your own turning tools, and prererably your own wood.

Edit - it is a long way from Lancashire though.

K


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