# Norm in Hand Tool Shocker



## Philly (17 Dec 2005)

Don't know if anyone caught the latest series of the New Yankee Workshop? Norm is using more and more hand tools (maybe by demand or maybe He's just "getting it" :lol: )
Just finished watching the Federal Game Table episode-big shock! :shock: 
He cut dovetails, mortises and tenons by hand!!!! What a guy! :norm: \/ 
To be fair, the hand tools he used looked like they just came out of the wrapper :lol: but it certainly is nice to see the Big Man using hand tools.
Cheers
Philly


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## martyn2 (17 Dec 2005)

did nt see that one was it on today or is it recored ?

martyn


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## sxlalan (17 Dec 2005)

Yes I was shocked by this as well. Thought it must be an imposter at first. Chisels, Japanese saws etc ... what's the world coming to. Just when I am starting to think about a table saw as well :shock:


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## Philly (17 Dec 2005)

Think it was thurs/fri Martyn. The joys of Sky+ :wink: 
Philly


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## Brent (18 Dec 2005)

I remember reading in an article Norm saying he enjoys using hand tools. Time limitations and what the majority of viewers want dictate his use of primarily machines on the show. Remember, he's got just over 20 minutes to introduce, make and finish a project. Not alot of time to hand cut dovetails every week.

Brent


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## OPJ (22 Dec 2005)

As shocked as I was (being fairly new to the NYW still) I also noticed the man's wearing a few cuts and scars on his bare hands as well...


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## afreegreek (9 Apr 2010)

Brent":kc62j6c7 said:


> I remember reading in an article Norm saying he enjoys using hand tools. Time limitations and what the majority of viewers want dictate his use of primarily machines on the show. Remember, he's got just over 20 minutes to introduce, make and finish a project. Not alot of time to hand cut dovetails every week.
> 
> Brent


 Thank God for that too.. last thing I want to see is another "hand cut dovetail" video or article, never mind an ongoing series of them.. in fact they should be banned.. they are not, whether hand or machine cut, the be all and end all of craftsmanship. in fact they aren't even close. they are not hard to make and they don't look so great either unless they are suited to the piece which most are not, and balanced extremely well, again, which most are not..

to amateurs they look like craftsmanship, to craftsman they look amateur and scream Saturday boot sale item..


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## wizer (9 Apr 2010)

now I know it's a wind up.


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## Kalimna (9 Apr 2010)

Erm, aren't we a little bit late for April fools?


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## jimi43 (9 Apr 2010)

Kalimna":r9vtfy27 said:


> Erm, aren't we a little bit late for April fools?



Five years four months too late too!

:? 

Jim


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## Ironballs (9 Apr 2010)

You mean afreegreek is abothersometroll. No intro, no details and almost every post is an argument or disagreement. At least he managed to post just the once this time


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## banned-it (10 Apr 2010)

Ironballs":2psb91de said:


> You mean afreegreek is abothersometroll. No intro, no details and almost every post is an argument or disagreement. At least he managed to post just the once this time


 a differing opinion or point of view is welcome in most places, obviously this is not one of them..

afreegreek is a professional cabinetmaker with nearly three decades in the trade and has a string of completed projects that would stretch across the Atlantic Ocean. although he loves tools and has quite a collection (yes, a collection) he believes tools are a means to an end and that it's the project that counts not the tools it was made with. he is a professional. that means he pays his rent and puts food on the table with his work. that also means he has a belt sander sitting right on top of the cabinet he keeps his (20 or so) hand planes in and uses it. (just like the "old timers" would had they had one)

BTW, he didn't do anything differently last time than he did any other time posting here, it's obviously a system glitch as one hit of the SUBMIT button should result in only one post.

afreegreek may be abothersometroll but ironballs they're not.


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## Vann (10 Apr 2010)

Ironballs":611ngq3b said:


> You mean afreegreek is abothersometroll. No intro, no details and almost every post is an argument or disagreement. At least he managed to post just the once this time


 I was begining to think he was a friend of Grim.

He may be a craftsman, but his manner is as rough as my workmanship.

Cheers, Vann


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## woodsworth (10 Apr 2010)

I don't see a problem with saying dovetails are over rated. It's like maths, some things are just learning a formula and somethings you actually need to understand fully to execute. Dovetails are like learning a formula. I don't see any point in berating someone for expressing an opinion. I'm quite sick of the focus on dovetails as well.


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## Saint Simon (10 Apr 2010)

I hope that people feel free to continue to post stuff in this forum about the basic joints used in hand-worked cabinetmaking. I am one of the sad amateurs that spend whatever spare time he gets trying to master these and who welcomes all the useful stuff you professionals pass on. 

I also hope no one comes onto the hand tools forum and says we shouldn't be talking endlessly about hand tools and how to use them and keep them sharp. I need all the help I can get and have learnt loads from everyone else's posts.

And I just don't read the threads that don't sound interesting.
thanks
Simon


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## Chris Knight (10 Apr 2010)

Guys,

Feel free to discuss dovetails to your hearts' content - just be careful of feeding the trolls!


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## JoinerySolutions (10 Apr 2010)

I used to watch NYW in the 90's when it came as a free channel in the Milton Keynes area cable package and miss Norms take on things. He is first and foremost a craftsman with the knowledge to go with it, if he enjoys the process of working with hand tools all the better. I can understand the pressures of working faster and with sponsers tooling for the networks benefit(and to keep the job) but feel he imparted quite a bit of his own soul in any project you saw.
It has been said that the British work with hand tools aided by power tools while the Americans work with power tools aided by hand tools! :norm: 
Both hand and power tools have their place..... but... the satisfaction one gets from making hand cut dovetails that fit just so (or a m&t joint) is worth more than the pay check at the end. (Just don't tell my clients I said that :lol: )
Rob.


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## newt (10 Apr 2010)

Yes stop feeding the trolls, pathetic really.


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## Ironballs (10 Apr 2010)

Why not bin them then Chris?


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## big soft moose (10 Apr 2010)

Chris Knight":1hpau3dv said:


> Guys,
> 
> Feel free to discuss dovetails to your hearts' content - just be careful of feeding the trolls!



I would guess that's troll singular - and isnt running two accounts against the rules - like Ib said if you know its a troll why not just ban it.


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## big soft moose (10 Apr 2010)

JoinerySolutions":rbapwevn said:


> but... the satisfaction one gets from making hand cut dovetails that fit just so ...



thats because you can  in my case the only way i can get dovetails that dont have gaps big enough to drive a coach and four through is to use a router and jig (and even then its not a guarantee of success)


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## wizer (10 Apr 2010)

I'm not sure if the mods here have been given access to see a users IP address (probably, but not necessarily). Plus I know a certain user knows his way around proxy servers for spoofing his IP. So until they're absolutely sure, I think it's probably wise for the mods not to go in heavy handed. Otherwise the controversialists will only start harping on. Which is just more food for the trolls. Jacob's right. Just bloody ignore him!


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## mtt.tr (10 Apr 2010)

Why do these people never show work that they have done just criticise


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## big soft moose (10 Apr 2010)

mtt.tr":3r9kq7hu said:


> Why do these people never show work that they have done just criticise



probably because they dont really have any work to show - we have another one in the turning forum who alledgedly is a proffesional turner - but in his early posts he was advising people to remove all the bark from wood for better drying - which tells us how experienced he really is.

trouble with the internet is that any fool can start posting and claim to be a pro turner or full time cabinet maker with an international reputation - but just because they claim it does that make it true ???

BSM (international man of mystery, millionaire playboy, and full time love god..... honest guv :lol: )


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## wizer (10 Apr 2010)

yes, my back problems and seeming lack of basic skills is just a façade, I'm really the turnip love child of Alan Peters


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## BradNaylor (11 Apr 2010)

At the risk of being accused of 'troll-feeding' I have to say I kind of agree with him!

One of the most skilled cabinetmakers in the country is Bill O'Neill, who has his workshop a couple of miles from mine. You won't have heard of him, because he is uninterested in limelight, preferring instead to just get on with his exquisite work for very wealthy private clients. He doesn't have a website and doesn't even photograph a lot of his projects, as this could impinge on his clients' privacy.

Bill doesn't dovetail his drawers. He considers dovetails ugly, showing off, and a waste of time. Instead he mitres his drawers with secret splines. There is no visible sign of a joint at all.

Far classier!


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## Eric The Viking (11 Apr 2010)

Saint Simon":12omkuqx said:


> I also hope no one comes onto the hand tools forum and says we shouldn't be talking endlessly about hand tools and how to use them and keep them sharp. I



On which note, I've just spent ages (squared) getting plane iron and chisel backs flat. Something that started as an act of desperation has turned out to be really useful: 

I now stick blocks of wood on the bevel side of the irons, temporarily, with double-sided tape. It means I can exert better pressure, keeping them flatter and scuffing the paper less often. It also means I have something immediately handy to lay them down on when I'm cleaning the wet'n'dry. 

I've just done a Dakota spokeshave blade that way, and I can't see how I might have managed it otherwise, as it's too small. It's very hard steel (A2, possibly, but it's not marked), and was quite grooved on the back from the factory grind. It actually made a buzzing noise over 320grit paper, which was evidently catching in the grooves. In the normal way could either have pressed it down, or rubbed it around, but not both together! Having a block on top meant I could get a reasonable polish behind the cutting edge, and I successfully removed the serrations. 

Also, I use a big magnet (from an old hard disk) in double plastic bags, to pull the filings off the surface, then vacuum. When it's too furry, I carefully peel the outer bag off, by turning it inside out, leaving the filings inside and the magnet clean for the next go. The second bag is insurance, as you *cannot* remove the filings if they get onto the magnet itself.

I bought a good book on sharpening recently, but it didn't mention either of these ideas.

HTH (but probably more of me telling Granny, etc.)


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## NickUrquhart (15 Apr 2010)

Re the sharpening book, David Fink's book on planes is an excellent guide to the main techniques for good edge results. 
The magnet trick is one that works well with the rotary waterstone, but i tape a rare earth magnet to the bottom of the water trough and it does a great job of keeping all the filings away from the wheel. 
Have you had any issues with rounding your edge when flattening the backs on paper using pressure? One of my real pains was just getting a blade to cutting sharpness, only to give it one last back rub on the 6000 waterstone, then losing the edge. I found that too much downward pressure was causing the edge to sink into the slurry and rounding the back edge so that i could see light roll over toward the bevel. 
Out of interest what paper would you recommend? I recently tried some Mirka, but the finer grits tend to rub off the abrasive and glue.
cheers, Nick.


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## Benchwayze (15 Apr 2010)

NickUrquhart":3f0khg4s said:


> Have you had any issues with rounding your edge when flattening the backs on paper using pressure? One of my real pains was just getting a blade to cutting sharpness, only to give it one last back rub on the 6000 waterstone, then losing the edge. I found that too much downward pressure was causing the edge to sink into the slurry and rounding the back edge so that i could see light roll over toward the bevel.
> Out of interest what paper would you recommend? I recently tried some Mirka, but the finer grits tend to rub off the abrasive and glue.
> cheers, Nick.



Hi Nick, 

Welcome to the Forum. 

I once spent a lot of time polishing the backs of my chisels and plane irons. Like you, I had the problem of 'turning' the edges, with those last few strokes over the fine stone. 

I remembered the problem of 'turned edge' from my telescope making days, and realised this was a similar problem, with the cause being much as you describe. I decided that for planes and chisels I could do without a mirror finish. It's mainly cosmetic and the difference in the edge between mirror-back and fine ground is minimal. In effect the advantages outweighed the work I was putting in. (As you get older, this mindset settles in!) 

So now, I merely ensure the backs are flat. I am satisfied with a 'matt' finish, as long as there is enough shine to give me a reflection I can use. (When paring 45 degree joints on inlay banding for instance.) Not polishing saves a lot of time too and my planes and chisels still cut without effort. 

HTH and Happy working

John


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## NickUrquhart (15 Apr 2010)

Thanks for the welcome John, much appreciated. Been meaning to join for years. While we're talking tools, i'm after a bench type disc sander with a good right angle fence, any thoughts on what i should go for or avoid? I recently bought a Proxxon ozi delta sander, thinking it would be good for squaring up endgrain. After quite a few stubborn attempts, denying to myself that i had slipped up by buying it, i realised it isn't what i need. Anyone have first hand experience of the Axminster type combo belt/disc machines?
all the best, Nick.


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## woodbloke (15 Apr 2010)

Benchwayze":m8lse4uf said:


> NickUrquhart":m8lse4uf said:
> 
> 
> > Have you had any issues with rounding your edge when flattening the backs on paper using pressure? One of my real pains was just getting a blade to cutting sharpness, only to give it one last back rub on the 6000 waterstone, then losing the edge. I found that too much downward pressure was causing the edge to sink into the slurry and rounding the back edge so that i could see light roll over toward the bevel.
> ...


John - I agree, it is a lot of work to get the backs of chisels polished (try Jap ones  ) but once they _are_ done, it's easy enough to keep them polished with the benefits of a sharper edge.

Nick - welcome to the forum. Fwiw, I kicked waterstones into touch years ago. I now use the 3M papers from Workshop Heaven on a large lump of 10mm glass which works for me. It's a far better way of gaining a super sharp and shiny edge IMHO...I'm now using the finest paper which is .3micron (that's about 18000g...I think)

...and who is this Norm geezer anyway? - Rob


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## NickUrquhart (16 Apr 2010)

Cheers Rob, much appreciated.

3 micron, that is fine, you could start selling your blades to NASA for their telescope mirrors. To be honest, it was a magical moment for me when things moved on from the hills and valleys of old oilstones. Must admit that it still impresses the hell out of me to pick up the 4 1/2 with Hock, knowing it won't let me down. Would you say that you've seen major practical differences in the quality of cut since you binned the waterstones?

Re the scry/sharp method, I'll have to try and find some 10mm float glass from somewhere and give it a try next week, it sounds like something worth learning. I've still got a decade old pile of fiddleback Maple boards that needs confronting. What angle jig do you think the most of?

all the best, Nick.


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## chingerspy (16 Apr 2010)

I've currently got some wet and dry strips double sticked to 18mm MDF. I'll most likely up this homebrew system to the WSH scarey sharp kit soon.

The adhesive/abrasive wears pretty quickly on Halfords wet n dry, especially in the finer grades. It would be nice to know if the 3M sheets last longer. Mainly so I know if I should order more sheets when ordering the kit.


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## NickUrquhart (16 Apr 2010)

Hi chingerspy, the Mirka does exactly the same, which leaves messy black smudges, and also a pain when you use the 1000/2000 grits on a light wood like Beech. From what i know, Mirka are pretty top end in wetndry paper, so probably just a characteristic of the fine particle/adhesive combo. Will pick-up some 3m and see if it performs differently.
cheers, Nick.


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## jimi43 (16 Apr 2010)

> It would be nice to know if the 3M sheets last longer. Mainly so I know if I should order more sheets when ordering the kit.



It lasts absolutely ages...can be washed out in soapy water and is superb stuff!

I works fantastic on wood too!

I buy big(ish) sheets from FleaBay....would recommend it to anyone.

Jim


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## chingerspy (17 Apr 2010)

Good to know Jim thanks. I checked fleabay earlier and found that WSH were the only ones selling the 3M PSA sheets  Looks like Matthew will be getting some of my money next month.


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## jimi43 (17 Apr 2010)

chingerspy":1i93xhcs said:


> Good to know Jim thanks. I checked fleabay earlier and found that WSH were the only ones selling the 3M PSA sheets  Looks like Matthew will be getting some of my money next month.



Matthew is your man! I use Micromesh with the Veritas II honing jig....they are a great combination.

I just finished the handle for the woodie restoration I am doing over on that thread....and I hit it with 80g...then 120g then 240g then 400g at which point I switch to Micromesh 1500 and take it up to 12000...no finish is necessary...so I can still smell the rosewood each time I use it...







It's lovely stuff. The whole lot was rosewood impregnated when I finished...just washed it in soapy water and laid it out to dry.

Job done!

Jim


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## chingerspy (17 Apr 2010)

Beautiful Jim! I was wondering how the tote was coming along 

I was going to get the Veritas II jig also, looks like one of the better ones to me. I'm doing it bye hand/eye right now but I reckon I can definately do a better job with a guide. I have a sharp edge but not one I'm scared of


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## jimi43 (17 Apr 2010)

I think that "scary" is a bit of a marketing thing but it certainly is the cheapest effective way of honing. The honing jig is fine if you can't hand hone very well (like me) but it has its limitations as reviews indicate.

It is certainly better than the old Stanley one I had...that's for sure and easy to put a microbevel on.

I do use Micromesh to hone my new Jap chisel and THAT is scary as hell!

You know when you touch a razor...THAT scary!!

But I do that by hand.

Jim


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## chingerspy (17 Apr 2010)

Yeah I understand that but it will be interesting to find out how different the sharpness may be.

I've gone from oilstone to wet n dry both hand honed since new year. Now that I have more blades (ever increasing!) I think its about time I got a nice jig at the very least and start playing with back bevels and such.

Actually the more I think about it, the more I am realising that money may be pretty tight next month so I may just stick with the jig then splurge on the SS kit in the summer (blimey that came around quick!).


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## Benchwayze (17 Apr 2010)

There is a bit of literature on the differences between polishing and grinding, in an old book, concerned with telescope making. (Amateur Telescope Making.. Vol 2) 

It seems that with the finest of abrasives - (at the time the book was put together, jewellers' rouge was about the finest you could get) the effect on the surface being polished changed from grinding to a 'smoothing' action, almost as if the molecules were being pushed around and melded together, rather then being ground away. 

I don't know how much truth there is in this, but it was thought to be the reason for getting a 'turned-edge' on a mirror, while polishing. 

This turned edge could show on the back of a plane iron or chisel, if you don't keep the tool absolutely flat on the polishing surface, which also has to be dead flat. 

If this all sound a little eccentric, I apologise. That's just me! 

Cheers folks. Best of luck in shaving the hairs off your arms... 
One day I might dare try shaving with a plane iron! 

Yeahhh Okay! 
- :lol: 

John


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## jimi43 (17 Apr 2010)

I don't go up to the finest on plane blades when I use MicroMesh....I stop at about 4000 to 8000 depending on the feel of the edge. I tried going up higher to polish the blade and it is just too much effort and the edge seemed to slightly diminish.

I can however shave the soft hairs on my arm easily.

Jim


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## chingerspy (17 Apr 2010)

Well I'm only on 1200 grit WnD and the blades cut softwoods easily. I'm about to step upto hardwoods and my thinking is that I will need a better edge for that.

I quite like sharpening/honing to be honest, weird but I tend to "zone out" while doing it. That's another reason I'm getting a foolproof jig at the very least


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## jimi43 (17 Apr 2010)

It might help you if you are going over to MicroMesh to be aware of when to use it.

THIS TABLE will show you the relationship between standard paper grit and MicroMesh grades.

As it say...you get a much better finish if you convert to MM as early in the stage progression finishing as you can. This is why they sell it from 1500 as this is roughly the transition point depending on what standard papers you use.

The important key with this stuff when finishing wood or plastics is not to miss a step. It is tempting because you don't really see much progression but it is happening. All of a sudden it all becomes very shiny with no residual stratches.

Hope this helps

Jim


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## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2010)

Hi Nick, 

I have never used a disc sander for end grain trimming. I could make one easily enough to fit my Coronet face-plate, and one or two old acquaintances used the genuine Coronet attachment with success. I doubt you could find one today, and in any case you would need the lathe/combo machine to use it!

In the 1960's I got myself a guillotine wood trimmer. (A Britton) (£8.50 and £5.00 for a spare pair of blades.) I still use it for squaring material 5" x 3/4" thick (Or even 3 x 2") The Tormek plane-blade jig holds the blades for sharpening no problem. 

Add an accurate tablesaw attachment with a good cross-cut TCT blade and it's all served me well so far! I can joint straight from the saw, for bicuits, and when dovetailing, the resultant surface is fine for any necessary marking. 

It's all down to setting up the machines well, and knowing you can rely on the blade to leave a good enough surface, depending on the job you are doing of course. 

When I need the best surface on end-grain I go for a shooting-board. 

HTH

John  

regards
John


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## NickUrquhart (19 Apr 2010)

Thanks for the info John, it all helps add to the battle. I'm not really one for large power tools such as saws or routers, mostly due to neighbour considerations(thin Victorian walls) and also the possibility of heat burn, but saying that i'm not in a position to say that they do burn, because i've never used one. Most of the applications i have are for hand planes, so tearout and burn look terrible. 

Re the Coronet, that sounds interesting. I would say that it seems reasonably easy to buy one of the velcro disc arbours from Ebay and fit it on a lathe. I think you're right, that a right angle jig table should be straightforward enough to make from scratch. I've got an Emco compact 5 metal lathe, which is excellent for various little jobs that we all need now and again, especially brass bits for plough planes and handle turning/drilling.

I think maybe i'm leaning towards making a shooting board as you prefer. I was concerned that a shooting board might tearout the trailing edge, especially on a moulding plane body. In the past, i finished plane end grain the old fashioned way(remove high spots) with a 1 1/2" Ward chisel, a square and some glass paper. I think it's time i moved into the 19th century, ha.

Thanks for the advice, very well appreciated. I'll try and knock up a chuting board this week and try it with either a mitre or maybe the Stanley 60 1/2 see how it goes.

all the best, Nick.


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## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2010)

NickUrquhart":1qpg7a2s said:


> Thanks for the info John, it all helps add to the battle.
> Re the Coronet, that sounds interesting. I would say that it seems reasonably easy to buy one of the velcro disc arbours from Ebay and fit it on a lathe. I think you're right, that a right angle jig table should be straightforward enough to make from scratch. I've got an Emco compact 5 metal lathe, which is excellent for various little jobs that we all need now and again, especially brass bits for plough planes and handle turning/drilling.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, very well appreciated. I'll try and knock up a chuting board this week and try it with either a mitre or maybe the Stanley 60 1/2 see how it goes.
> ...



Hi Nick, 

You're welcome. 
If you can use a metalworking lathe then you are quids-in.

I am not a metalworker, but I would fabricate a sanding plate from 10mm aluminium sheet and a mild-steel chucking piece about 1.5 inches in diameter. I won't presume to tell you how to secure the aluminium to the chucking-piece of course!

This should make a nice sanding plate, and the chucking piece would mean you can leave the abrasive disc in place when you remove the whole thing from the lathe. Maybe you could use the tool-saddle to hold the table and adjustable fence? 

The Coronet Major swings 9" over the bed, but it has a swivelling headstock that allows bigger diameters. So if I recall correctly, their sanding attachment was a 10" model.

Regards
John


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