# Flattening the sole of my new smoothing plane



## L2wis (2 Jan 2015)

Hello all,

I'm having some serious issues flattening the sole of my new smoothing plane, for Christmas I received a new #04 smoothing plane the same as this: Amazon link

I've already got a nice second hand smoothing plane of which i flattened the sole of, the brand of which is Talco which i believe is an old english brand? Anyway, when I flattened the sole on the talco I had no problem at all and it didn't take me long at all but this new record plane is really taking some work!!!

I've been using abrasive on some glass much the same as I did before with the old plane, I started at 400 grit but I've had to come right down to 80G now as I soon realised after about an hour I wasn't getting anywhere with the 400. I'm amazed at how much out of flat the plane is, I think there might have been as much as 1mm gap under my straight edge when I started, the gap is in the middle of the plane the high points were at the toe and heel.

My question is this... What should I do next? Keep going with the 80G or take it to my disc sander and risk taking it out of true?

Oh I should mention the plane is set up with the blade and everything in place and tightened to normal levels and I've been attempting to flatten it for around 3hrs so far.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2015)

You could send it back it sounds no good to me.

But if you want to flatten it it's best done with 60 to 80 grit, wet on a flat impermeable surface. Use cheap paper wet n dry as it sticks down nicely if kept very wet with water or white spirit. No need to glue etc. Keep changing the paper. The heavier cloth backed stuff doesn't lie down so flat.
It'll be a bit snatchy at first but a very quick pass over a finer grade (your 400? - a bit on the fine side) will fix this - it won't remove the scratches but will remove the friction in just a few seconds of rubbing. Even if you don't do this a bit of use will rapidly reduce the sharpness of the 80 grit scratches especially if you apply a bit of candle wax (quick one-second scribble with a candle every now and then).

No need to polish - thats just for tool-polish enthusiasts!

Definitely don't use a disc sander.


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## woodpig (2 Jan 2015)

Sounds like a job for a surface grinder, any engineering shops near you? As said though it should probably have gone back to the supplier. Hope you get it sorted.


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## bridger (2 Jan 2015)

Shift the bulk of the material *carefully* with files. When you can no longer see light under the straightedge, finish it off with the abrasives.


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## GLFaria (2 Jan 2015)

I dare say removing 1mm or so from the sole will weaken the plane too much. And if the out of flatness originates from improper seasoning or stress relieving, some of it will come back again.


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## MIGNAL (2 Jan 2015)

Sorry but you should not have attempted to flatten it. It should be sent back. 1 mm is a heck of a lot on a smoothing Plane. I don't know how much it actually cost but at that price there are better options.


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## L2wis (2 Jan 2015)

My thoughts after an hour of flattening and making little progress was sending it back however this is tricky as it was a gift. If I had purchased it myself it certainly would have gone back. I've only had secondhand planes before so i wasnt aware that this would be probably be a write off with the amount of flattening required.

As this was a gift I'm not sure where it was purchased from but do shops generally take back items that have been sharpened / flattened partially?

Suppose it could be worth a try before putting in more work. 

Jacob, you described exactly how I've been doing it, I use glass cleaner as my lapping fluid though.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2015)

L2wis":26jqm8sm said:


> ...
> Jacob, you described exactly how I've been doing it, I use glass cleaner as my lapping fluid though.


Ah well - 40 grit then!
If you started with 400 grit it's no wonder you got a bit brassed off! There really is no need to go fine.


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## mouppe (2 Jan 2015)

Make sure the blade is tightened in place (but retracted) as this can affect flex the sole.


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## Cheshirechappie (2 Jan 2015)

bridger":iuabuaca said:


> Shift the bulk of the material *carefully* with files. When you can no longer see light under the straightedge, finish it off with the abrasives.



^ This. 

Take the blade out, and hold the sole casting bottom-up in a vice (engineer's for preference, but use what you've got). Use something like a 10" or 12" turnip cut flat file to start with to shift the bulk of the waste, checking frequently with a straightedge to see where the high spots are, and addressing them. Then as you get it flat when checked with a straightedge, clean up with a 8" second cut flat, then a 6" smooth flat file. Go very carefully and check very frequently the nearer you get to flat. Once it's flat as you can get it by filing, put the blade in, snap the lever cap down, back the blade off, and finish the work by lapping with 80-grit. You can then either work through the grades to the finish that suits you, or do as Jacob suggests and just take off the peaks with a fine grade. The sole will look a bit of a mess, but will work well enough using Jacob's dodge.

Either that, or get it machined flat.


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## RogerP (2 Jan 2015)

A while ago I was given a plane with similar problems. 

With nothing much to lose I took the hooligan approach. Whacked it on my bench sander fitted with a blue Zirconia belt for a couple on minutes to get it somewhere near then (after it had cooled right down) used more approved methods to finish off. 

I think I scared the life out of it as ever since it's been a very good plane to use.


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## deema (2 Jan 2015)

Do you need a scrub plane? If you do I would simply change the blade profile (large curve) and perhaps open up the mouth a little and have a lovely scrub plane. No need to flaten the sole and the gift has a very useful new purpose.


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## David C (2 Jan 2015)

A 1mm hollow on a no 4 is ridiculous.

It should be sent back. A reputable dealer would not argue.

The donor is not likely to be offended by faults which he/ she/ they could not be expected to understand.

If you are determined to flatten it, I just wonder what sort of glass you have and what is it sitting on?

40 grit would be a good place to start. Black felt tip marker lines help to show where metal is being removed.

David Charlesworth


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## iNewbie (2 Jan 2015)

L2wis":126xtz4m said:


> As this was a gift I'm not sure where it was purchased from but *do shops generally take back items that have been sharpened / flattened partially?*
> 
> Suppose it could be worth a try before putting in more work.



None I'm aware of - not when you've tampered with it.


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## L2wis (2 Jan 2015)

Thanks for the feedback and ideas all, using it as a scrub plane was an idea that crossed my mind but i'd much prefer a lovely smoother!!!

I've been using a sharpie to keep a track of my progress, because ive got fed up of going at it with 80g I've turned to my coarse diamond plate which is certainly not ideal as its only 2" wide and I've been checking over the sole and think I've made some progress.

My left shoulder blade is aching today so tomorrow morning this plane will either be flat or a scrub plane. I will post some pics too.

Thanks again guys.

I might drop Irwin Record an email to let them know what I think to their planes.


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## matthewwh (2 Jan 2015)

If it was out by a mm (40 thou) and British Standard is 3 thou, it's more than 13 times out of tolerance. That isn't an 'oops', it's just a waste of scarce materials and resources that could have been used by a competent manufacturer instead. 

Out of fairness for the poor soul who answers the telephone, I would suggest that you contact Irwin before you reach the point of total exasperation rather than after.


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## David C (2 Jan 2015)

Pressing too hard on a diamond plate will likely destroy it.


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## marcros (3 Jan 2015)

Is it really that far out? How are you measuring it, because 13x out of the bs tolerance seems extreme


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## Jacob (3 Jan 2015)

Jacob":2hv0pidw said:


> L2wis":2hv0pidw said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


PS I should add - you should really flood the paper in a pool of fluid (whatever it is) not just moisten it. This keeps it flat down by suction and also floats off the swarf (which you can lift off with magnet if your base plate is not steel). Even your 1mm shouldn't take too long with 40 to 60 grit paper.
You don't need to mark anything you can see by the scratches how you are getting on. If in doubt alter the direction of your efforts for a different scratch pattern but finish fore and aft so the scratches are in line with the plane, to reduce friction in use. 
To repeat - no need to go finer than very coarse as the sharpness is soon lost in use, but you can speed this up by a quick pass over a finer grit, if you want to.

I've never tried filing as described by CC, so have no idea of the relative merits. Sounds worth having a go though.


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## L2wis (3 Jan 2015)

I'll grab my feeler gauges from the shed this morning and measure the remaining gap for reference. These pics are not in chronical order. The sole at the moment is much further on now than in the below pic, the was taken after I was just getting going.

Set up:




Blade adjuster:




Sole after half an hour:


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## bugbear (3 Jan 2015)

I've neer lked so-called-lapping:

1) Your reference surface needs to be much more accurate than the accuracy you want on your plane. It also needs to allow a working stroke of around twice the tool length. Most people's surface fail to meet this requirment.

2) (woodworkers' ) Lapping has a distinct tendancy to dub the ends. Whilst rubbing a tool on a flat, uniformly abrasive surface cannot make the tool hollow, it can easily make it convex, just as a flat plane can make a wooden workpiece convex.

3) Abrasive sheets tend to wear more in the middle, leading to (more!) dubbing at the sides and ends.

Here, from my long defunct webpage, is my description of how best to flatten your plane, should you want to:

Here's my orginal;

http://web.archive.org/web/200905291005 ... atten.html

Here's my "shiny and new"

http://web.archive.org/web/200901141057 ... heory.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200901141455 ... ctice.html

(mind you, according to a Paul Sellers video, flattening is easy - around 60 seconds on 80 grit. Seems
a little dubious to me)

BugBear


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## terrymck (3 Jan 2015)

Send it back


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## L2wis (3 Jan 2015)

Just had the feeler gauges under two of my straight edges and I believe there is only a gap of just under 0.15mm now. I will check out the link above.


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## worn thumbs (3 Jan 2015)

The coarse diamond plate is a good way to get the material off.I used mine to flatten the sole of my block plane after I had worn it hollow trimming Formica.I also find it beneficial to use paraffin as a lubricant-not just for this job but on oilstones generally and nobody that I have persuaded to try such a thing has ever gone back to using oil.In fact you could use nothing finer than a coarse diamond plate for the entire process as polishing the sole to a high level will mean you have more metal in contact with your wood and consequently more friction.

You are right to feel aggrieved at the amount of preparation you are having to do,a new plane should need no more than final sharpening and maybe a little adjustment of the frog.You need to complain to Record and at a high enough level to avoid a PR person giving you a load of excuses to mollify you.The problem tends to be that tool companies these days have moved away from being run by technical people and are run by beancounters.You need to convince the beancounter at Record that unless he allocates a few more beans to eradicating this sort of problem he will be seeing a much smaller quantity of beans flowing into his coffers.Including links to this and similar threads might reinforce the point.


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## woodbrains (3 Jan 2015)

Hello,

This is where the suble difference between quality control and quality assurance becomes apparent. I don't doubt that the plane passed all quality control test when it left the factory, so complaint to whoever the company's spokesperson is, will not have any effect on rectifying the problem. To my mind, the only way to give quality assurance, in this instance, would be a change in manufacturing process. (Stress releiving / seasoning the iron casting) which isn't going to happen. The freshly machined castings will pass the QC testing, so the company attains all the standards it needs to, within the parameters it works. The rep at the company will not be able to offer any solutions. At best, they might replace the plane, for another, fresh, flattening project! (hammer) if you could get some money back to spend elsewhere.....

The only solution is to never buy a new Record/Irwin plane again and hope the plane you do have, does not move any more, after you have flattened it.

Mike.


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## Jacob (3 Jan 2015)

Your work space is totally inadequate, no wonder you were struggling - and with too fine paper.
You need a large wide area so that you can flood it with fluid and perhaps have two sheets in a row. If they are wet enough they lie down dead flat. You work in a puddle.
With two sheets you can do each end of a long plane (if it's concave) leaving a gap in between them.
It needs to be strong enough so that you can put a lot of force into it so a thin piece of glass is no good. I use the bed of my planer. A length of thick melamine of formica faced worktop might do it, or a large granite slab.
You need to be in a place where spillage of swarfy fluid won't matter - it's a messy process and you need a lot of old cloths for wiping up.
You keep your wet n dry between boards when not in use so that they stay flat


L2wis":znl5iei9 said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## L2wis (3 Jan 2015)

Thanks again for the advise and support on this chaps, I'll be sure to email record letting them know of my disappointment. 

As to flattening progress I've got it so my 0.10 feeler pinches, the 0.05mm slides straight through still but maybe that'll be good enough. 

I daresay my hand is going to reach for the old flat talco more than the record, if this happens I'll convert the record to a scrub and by then it'll be carboot time so a nice old Stanley will be added to the collection. 

I'll see how things pan out, maybe in a week I'll have some more motivation to go at it again.

And if it goes back massively out of flat I'll be throwing the bloody thing down the tip.


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## MIGNAL (3 Jan 2015)

The method you are using is long winded and pretty hopeless. You would have been better served with small sanding blocks and very coarse grit. These allow one to focus on the verry high points, at least until things start to get much more 'flat'. It's not that far removed from the old fashioned way of using a metal scraper. It's only when I get things very close that I might resort to using a flattening board. In fact many times I use the sanding blocks to create deliberate hollows, similar to the way that wooden Japanese Plane soles are shaped. There's no reason why metal planes can't be shaped in the same manner. The one to really avoid is the hollow _immediately_ ahead of the blade. A hollow, say 1 cm ahead, is perfectly fine.


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## Corneel (3 Jan 2015)

Or grab a file.


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## CStanford (3 Jan 2015)

Mignal is absolutely correct. 

Scrape or sand the high spots with very coarse grit sandpaper in a holder or wrapped around a block. You need to treat the high spots before going to the lapping table. Get it pretty close to truth then lap for the coup-de-grace.

If you use sandpaper then sand in a circular motion at the two high ends switching ends and paper frequently. Check progress every ten to fifteen minutes with a decent straight edge - the rule from a quality combo square is good enough at this stage of the process.

It would also be smart to use a set of small winding sticks to see if the sole is also twisted or you can lay a rule on the diagonals to check. If there is a fairly significant amount of twist I would abandon the project altogether and get a different plane, harvesting the one you have for the parts that are in good working order.

You can also test for twist at your lapping set up by holding the plane lightly in the middle with full lever cap tension but with the blade withdrawn. Move the plane across the paper for a bit being very careful to keep a light amount of pressure, mid-ship (move the plane with one hand holding it in the middle at the highest point of the cheeks). If two opposite corners come up polished the sole is twisted. The smaller the area of polish at opposite corners, the more twist present. If the polish comes up evenly at the ends (or at two spots at the ends but in the center of the sole) and not on opposite corners the sole is not twisted, only concave. Make sure your efforts afterward do not put twist into the sole where none was present at the outset.

If concave, the immediate high spots are likely right underneath the front knob and where the back screw of the rear tote screws into the sole but use your rule to make sure you know exactly where the two highest spots are before you start sanding.


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## bugbear (3 Jan 2015)

MIGNAL":1oefunha said:


> The method you are using is long winded and pretty hopeless. You would have been better served with small sanding blocks and very coarse grit. These allow one to focus on the verry high points, at least until things start to get much more 'flat'. It's not that far removed from the old fashioned way of using a metal scraper. It's only when I get things very close that I might resort to using a flattening board. In fact many times I use the sanding blocks to create deliberate hollows, similar to the way that wooden Japanese Plane soles are shaped. There's no reason why metal planes can't be shaped in the same manner. The one to really avoid is the hollow _immediately_ ahead of the blade. A hollow, say 1 cm ahead, is perfectly fine.



'Ere! You been reading my web page!? (linked above  )

BugBear


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## Mr T (3 Jan 2015)

I test for flatness using a piece of 10mm float glass and feeler gauges. You can usually tell when it's getting flat as you can feel some suction when you lift the plane off the glass.

For flattening I use 60 grit Aluminium oxide paper on a 1 mtre long piece of 10 mm float glass. I stick it with craft mount adhesive, a lot less messy than water. Check the abrasive is flat using a good straight edge and feeler guages and shim it with strips of paper if it's not flat. We use this system on my beginners and basic skills courses and have flattened some very out of wack planes on it.

I used to use 60 grit W&D then used some AO when I ran out of W&D and found it worked better. Use a magnet in a yogurt pot to remove the iron filings. This set up may require an initial outlay on the glass and adhesive, but I think it's worth it in the long run if you plan to refurbish more planes.

Chris


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## woodfarmer (3 Jan 2015)

you could skim it in a lathe.

if you have access to a lathe


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## MIGNAL (3 Jan 2015)

bugbear":2f6regxh said:


> MIGNAL":2f6regxh said:
> 
> 
> > The method you are using is long winded and pretty hopeless. You would have been better served with small sanding blocks and very coarse grit. These allow one to focus on the verry high points, at least until things start to get much more 'flat'. It's not that far removed from the old fashioned way of using a metal scraper. It's only when I get things very close that I might resort to using a flattening board. In fact many times I use the sanding blocks to create deliberate hollows, similar to the way that wooden Japanese Plane soles are shaped. There's no reason why metal planes can't be shaped in the same manner. The one to really avoid is the hollow _immediately_ ahead of the blade. A hollow, say 1 cm ahead, is perfectly fine.
> ...



Nope. You've been reading a very old post of mine on this very forum! :wink: But actually the concept is pretty obvious if one gives it a bit of thought.


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## David C (3 Jan 2015)

I'm not sure there is any benefit in creating absolute engineering flatness?

The method Chris describes is almost identical to my own.

The crucial elements are the long abrasive surface, a flat enough surface to put the glass on and a precision straightedge to check the set up with.

With care I find the results on a 5 1/2 to be flat with very slight rounding near the edges. Less than 1 thou" when last tested. 

This is one of the things we do on my tool tuning course.

Planes treated like this work extremely well ! 

David Charlesworth


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## paulm (3 Jan 2015)

woodfarmer":ozb30adq said:


> you could skim it in a lathe.
> 
> if you have access to a lathe



That would be interesting to see !

Cheers, Paul


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## woodfarmer (3 Jan 2015)

paulm":3smpuy0v said:


> woodfarmer":3smpuy0v said:
> 
> 
> > you could skim it in a lathe.
> ...



I have skimmed quite a few car/truck cylinder heads in my lathe. trick is to mount it at the ends so the bulk swings free, NOT clamp it down because that will just "bend it straight" and you wil;l; just skim it bent (springs back when unclamped).


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## RogerP (3 Jan 2015)

Although I've skimmed stuff with the lathe I think in this case I'd prefer to mill it....

.... but do you think perhaps we're going a little OTT?


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## bugbear (3 Jan 2015)

MIGNAL":k8370v1u said:


> bugbear":k8370v1u said:
> 
> 
> > MIGNAL":k8370v1u said:
> ...



Probably parallel evolution - that page on my website is 2002, and you didn't join this forum until 2005!

But it is just a varation on classic engineering scraping practice, using coarser metal cutting tools.A real fitter
would "just" file flat, but that's a tricky skill.

BugBear


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## paulm (3 Jan 2015)

woodfarmer":3ly2v20g said:


> paulm":3ly2v20g said:
> 
> 
> > woodfarmer":3ly2v20g said:
> ...



You live and learn !

Cheers, Paul


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## woodfarmer (3 Jan 2015)

RogerP":2fbdde6t said:


> Although I've skimmed stuff with the lathe I think in this case I'd prefer to mill it....
> 
> .... but do you think perhaps we're going a little OTT?



probably, but I have a suitable metal working lathe here so always think in terms of lathes.. recently been sounding out trying to find a decent horizontal mill primarily for gear cutting. Although that may not be ideal for skimming


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## CStanford (4 Jan 2015)

Nope. You've been reading a very old post of mine on this very forum! :wink: But actually the concept is pretty obvious if one gives it a bit of thought.[/quote]

Probably parallel evolution - that page on my website is 2002, and you didn't join this forum until 2005!

But it is just a varation on classic engineering scraping practice, using coarser metal cutting tools.A real fitter
would "just" file flat, but that's a tricky skill.

BugBear[/quote]

It's no different than flattening the first face of a board -- one identifies and then methodically knocks down high spots with a shorter plane (a jack) then brings all to truth with a few final passes with a jointer. This accomplishes geometric flatness. The No. 4 (4.5 or 3) provides the surface attribute of smoothness if the jointer didn't take care of this step.


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## bugbear (4 Jan 2015)

CStanford":1egqtcsk said:


> > > Nope. You've been reading a very old post of mine on this very forum! :wink: But actually the concept is pretty obvious if one gives it a bit of thought.
> >
> >
> >
> ...



No it's not; flattening wood with hand techniques doesn't involve a flat reference surface, the action of a plane is quite different, since it will/can ONLY take off high spots, and carries its own reference surface (ironically, the flat sole the OP is trying to create).

The techniques Mignal and I recommend uses tools that are quite capable (if not guided coorrectly) of making low spots lower.

BugBear


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## CStanford (4 Jan 2015)

The point, quite simply, is to find the high spots and reduce them to the lowest low spot on the surface all the while not throwing the surface into twist or some other defect that wasn't present before. It's not easy per se, but it's not rocket science either.

It takes more common sense than anything.

The easiest way to screw it up is assuming if one has a flat reference surface like a granite plate that it is impossible to make the sole of the plane worse.

Find high spot, sand high spot, rinse, repeat, and watch for twist.

If you think a plane can only take off high spots you must have never planed a board longer than your longest plane.


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## Jacob (4 Jan 2015)

CStanford":3tv7eaif said:


> ....
> 
> If you think a plane can only take off high spots you must have never planed a board longer than your longest plane.


Yep. Wood is bendy. Planes probably are too. 
Even if the plane is perfectly flat and the wood perfectly rigid, the protruding blade can cut a hollow (cf. "sagitta" and geometry of a circle). You can also do the opposite if you want to (round the surface from end to end). In fact that is what often happens if you don't pay attention.
Planing is a series of controlled scoops - flatness is achieved as near as possible by eyeballing the results and altering the technique accordingly - you can't rely on the plane to do it for you.
It follows that a slightly convex sole is probably quite OK but concave probably not.


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## JohnCee (4 Jan 2015)

You can get the back and sides surface ground to British Standard flatness for £25.
Can't understand why anyone would want to undertake this messy, time wasting job by hand.


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## bugbear (4 Jan 2015)

CStanford":22k5q5k8 said:


> If you think a plane can only take off high spots you must have never planed a board longer than your longest plane.



It's all relative Charles - if there's a local 1" deep dent in a board, how much surrounding wood would you HAVE to remove
to plane it out? Now compare that answer with removing a 1" high bump.

Planes remove high spots, at least to a good working approximation in the real world. It's why we use them,

BugBear


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## CStanford (4 Jan 2015)

A plane, alone, is not sufficient to impart geometric flatness to a workpiece. Witness the use of winding sticks and straightedges in just about any reputable British woodworking manual you can name and in practical use too of course.

As for local bumps, it depends. Even a relatively long plane can ride up and over a bump/hump depending on how it's wielded and the size of the imperfection.

I tend to work really big bumps down with a short plane first; a long plane can teeter-totter on a big bump. This is essentially scrubbing though it may not take place with a scrubbing plane, per se. I happily whip out a Surform on really nasty boards. Nothing takes down high spots faster and more reliably. You can get right on top of a bump and take it down in a few strokes.

It is also not true that a board can only be made as flat as one's flattest hand plane. A board can be made as flat as one's most accurate straightedge. To do so you actually end up finishing the process with progressively SHORTER planes (down to local scraping if necessary) rather than long ones, all in a process of very fine tweaking in order to mirror the straightedge's accuracy to the surface. Anybody under the impression that they can only get a board as flat as the sole of their No. 7 is mistaken. This is obviously rarely if ever necessary but I think it's important to understand where the theoretical bounds lie.


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