# Hand Operated Pillar Drills



## marcros (23 Aug 2011)

I guess that the answer to this is that they were used successfully for many years but are the likes of

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Operated ... 2566edeaa9 

any use in the modern day workshop. In an ideal world, I would love something that could drill any of the wood and metalwork ideas that I can dream up, but in reality a machine that could accurately drill holes in wood, plastic and thin non-ferrous metals would probably satisfy my requirements. What are the limitations of hand pillar drills and does anybody use them regularly? Are there any pitfalls to look out for?

Thanks
Mark


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## bugbear (23 Aug 2011)

marcros":2eys56ib said:


> I guess that the answer to this is that they were used successfully for many years but are the likes of
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Operated ... 2566edeaa9
> 
> ...



They're very slow for drilling in wood - I think they were used much more for metals, with feed rates to suit.

BugBear


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## Scouse (23 Aug 2011)

marcros":2ktpf2wg said:


> I guess that the answer to this is that they were used successfully for many years but are the likes of
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Operated ... 2566edeaa9
> 
> any use in the modern day workshop. In an ideal world, I would love something that could drill any of the wood and metalwork ideas that I can dream up, but in reality a machine that could accurately drill holes in wood, plastic and thin non-ferrous metals would probably satisfy my requirements. What are the limitations of hand pillar drills and does anybody use them regularly? Are there any pitfalls to look out for?



I use one every day as my only stationary drill.

As Bugbear has already noted the only drawback for most people used to the speed of a modern workshop is the slow rate of the automatic feed, which works off a cam and gear arrangement, driven off the main wheel. 

If you have the time and/or patience, then it will go through anything, given the appropriate bit. What it won't do, however, is act as a mini milling machine/router/plane, as I have seen electric pillar drills used in the past.

Here is a link to the restoration of mine, if you are interested; excuse the sideways photos!

pillar-drill-restoration-t45396-15.html

El.


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## marcros (23 Aug 2011)

interesting read, Scouse. I fancy having a go at a restoration of one of these, if I can locate a local one, ideally with 2 speeds. 

Are the chucks similar to a modern drill?


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## gounthar (23 Aug 2011)

Very interesting read!
I am interested in this one, and hope to get it next week:




.
I hope I will be able to start mortices, cut toy wheels and so on. :roll:


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## jimi43 (23 Aug 2011)

AHHHHH!!!! No!!!!!

My other favourite topic...I am trying desperately to avoid getting one of these...but my will is weakening....I just love the look of them! 8) 

Must avoid slope...must avoid slope....must AVOID slope!!! :mrgreen: 

You guys ain't helping none ya know! #-o 

Jim


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## Jason Pettitt (23 Aug 2011)

The few I've seen (for some reason I have two) have play in the quill that renders them less than ideal. At some point I'll join the 20th Century and get one of those newfangled plug-in versions.


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## t8hants (23 Aug 2011)

Most of those things were designed to be used with flat-drills rather than the more modern twist-drill. An awful lot have had the feed ratchet removed, and that I think is why so many are worn, as they have been pushed through the work too fast, or the reverse they were overloaded by the ratchet feed. I've got one to set up one day. 

Gareth


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## No skills (23 Aug 2011)

I'd have that just for the novelty, would be a bonus if it worked reasonably.


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## condeesteso (23 Aug 2011)

Brilliant things - Jim is after one (pretends not, but... we know better). They come up on ebay a bit. When they look that good, working is a bonus. Must say it comes as a bit of a shock to discover Scouse uses one (every day, even more of a shock)... =D>


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## marcros (23 Aug 2011)

how do you tell the difference between the one speed/2 speed/3 speed models? Am I correct in thinking the Gounther picture above is multi speed because of the extra cogs that could be engaged?


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## Scouse (23 Aug 2011)

condeesteso":3hzqjpps said:


> Must say it comes as a bit of a shock to discover Scouse uses one...



I'm sure I don't know what you mean...I'd never normally be caught anywhere near a hand drill...no sir, not me... :-" :wink: :mrgreen: 



marcros":3hzqjpps said:


> how do you tell the difference between the one speed/2 speed/3 speed models? Am I correct in thinking the Gounther picture above is multi speed because of the extra cogs that could be engaged?



I've never seen one like the picture above, but I'd guess it has a couple of speeds. The Union type drills came in single and two speed models. The twin speed like mine changes the speed by moving the drive wheel to a position lower in the frame, engaging a gear within the wheel. Here's an advert which explains better!


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## gounthar (23 Aug 2011)

I didn't buy this one, but was tempted for sure:


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## condeesteso (23 Aug 2011)

must say if I lived near Wigan I would quite fancy that one (Marcos's). Looks really great, nice n simple, and it has a lever with a blue knob on it too. These big sods are always collection only... one day though.
And as for that one Gounthar... how could you not have bought that ?????????????


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## gounthar (23 Aug 2011)

Well, hum... SWMBO can understand why I buy old tools, you know, not killing poor electrons, and so on...
But when these old tools can't be used for their initial goal because they're shot, I'm then considered as a hoarder, and she can't stand this anymore...  
This drill is still for sale, if anyone is interested... :roll:


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## marcros (23 Aug 2011)

There are a few that come up on ebay, and internet research throws up some pictures of some beautiful pieces of cast iron- have a look for camelback drillpress for example. Unfortunately, they are few and far between this side of the pond. The trick with ebay is to be patient- I posted that link as an example, it isnt quite what I am looking for, although I didnt know that when I posted the link. I think that I will keep an eye out for a nice 2 speed union a1, tyzack or similar.

What is the going rate for that one with the balls on top, out of interest, and where is it?

Mark


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## condeesteso (23 Aug 2011)

Gounthar - interested definitely. (Me, Jim and Scouse I suspect, plus some). pm me if it's practical to acquire (will it fit my pocket?)


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## jimi43 (23 Aug 2011)

You guys are NOT playing fair! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Since when did pawn brokers have to drill things? :mrgreen: 

Coat? Yup...definitely coat time.....  

Jim


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## condeesteso (23 Aug 2011)

Jim - it's a drill, where does porn... sorry pawn come into it?


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## alan2001 (24 Aug 2011)

do those balls fly outwards with centrifugal force, acting like flywheels?

if not, what's the point of them?


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## jimi43 (24 Aug 2011)

alan2001":85fg3yw5 said:


> do those balls fly outwards with centrifugal force, acting like flywheels?
> 
> if not, what's the point of them?



Hi Alan

If you look at the leverage connections the weight of the balls pushes evenly down on the column sleeve thus autofeeding as you turn the crank

If they spun around....you would nut yourself! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## Scouse (24 Aug 2011)

condeesteso":1qp522wb said:


> Gounthar - interested definitely. (Me, Jim and Scouse I suspect, plus some). pm me if it's practical to acquire (will it fit my pocket?)



Not for me this one; if I came home with that, my long suffering and generally supportive wife would replace the counterweight balls with some of a different variety! :lol: Hope one of you guys gets it though... (no pressure Douglas and Jim!)



jimi43":1qp522wb said:


> If they spun around....you would nut yourself! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



Oh yeah... I didn't think of that either; at first glance (and second and third!) I thought they would spin too, to add momentum. I need a lie down. (homer) #-o


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## alan2001 (24 Aug 2011)

hmmm... the balls still look like they're hinged...


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## jimi43 (24 Aug 2011)

alan2001":19ki63sv said:


> hmmm... the balls still look like they're hinged...



If you look at the conjunction of the "Y"...where it runs down the shaft screw...it is at its lowest point. If it were up further the balls would be further out and higher and their weight would be levering through the hinge/lever arrangement to push down on that sleeve as you turn the screw. This presents force to the shaft...autofeeding the drill.

Jim


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## flounder (24 Aug 2011)

jimi43":msphhyfz said:


> alan2001":msphhyfz said:
> 
> 
> > hmmm... the balls still look like they're hinged...
> ...



Nope, still don't see it! To my eyes the balls spin, centrifugal force pulls the balls outwards which then pulls the shaft down onto the workpiece! :?:


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## jimi43 (24 Aug 2011)

Ok...let's imagine it all in reverse.

See the Y junction....the little silver dot...that is a casting around the screw.

Screw the shaft around using the handle backwards...the dot moves up...yes?

Imagine the dot moving up thus taking the bottom half of that V shape up.

If that happens the sides of the V move up and out and push the top arms up lifting the balls until you reach the point where the dot cannot go any higher...

This is a full up position.

Place the workpiece underneath adjusting the table up to meet it and then wind down.

The balls move down under gravity pushing the dot downwards hence the drill into the wood under power...

That's how I see it anyway..but to be sure...I think someone should buy it! :mrgreen: 

Douglas? DOUGLASSSSSS! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## condeesteso (24 Aug 2011)

OK, so I have to buy a drill just so you lot can find out how it works? I don't want this drill, never did, don't like drills.... everyone knows that already.
(I shall make enquiries, to be helpful.)

Having taken a closer look, the Y shape appears to be a rigid casting at it's base (where the 3 lines forming the Y intersect). The arms holding the balls have slots at their tops, and appear to be able to slide as the balls move outward. So as you turn, the balls move outward and apply pressure to drive the entire shaft with chuck at end, downward. The degree of movement of said balls depends on speed of rotation. hence greater turning speed = greater downward pressure on the bit. The pinion would need to be tracked on the shaft in some way, and I think I see something above the chuck, just below body casting.
Let's get it and find out, shall we!


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## condeesteso (24 Aug 2011)

here's another pic, kept it in a secret place...


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## Vann (24 Aug 2011)

jimi43":8908es3y said:


> If they spun around....you would nut yourself!


Where I did my apprenceship, the coppersmith shop had a couple of flypresses. These had two large balls at the top, but fixed. And 'yes' if you didn't watch out you *would* nut youself. Worse was the long handle you used to spin the balls. I think I got a glancing blow from that once...

I don't think H&S would allow them in this era (the workshop closed in the mid-1990s, but I think the flypresses would have been banned before then).

Cheers, Vann.


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## No skills (24 Aug 2011)

Go on then, how much was it???


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## alan2001 (25 Aug 2011)

jimi43":1zdde8m2 said:


> That's how I see it anyway..but to be sure...I think someone should buy it! :mrgreen:


Jim - thanks very much for this explanation. However, with the greatest respect, I hereby reject it. My reason for doing so is because I think an insane old drill with massive spinning balls that might take your head off at any second just sounds so... _COOL!_ :mrgreen: 

it's a "Darwinator" Drill - it would be great in a horror film, eh? - but unfortunately it wouldn't be allowed nowadays. (Imagine the carnage if it had an electric motor!)

*condeesteso *- BUY IT! and please ensure you ask the vendor how he works his balls, and does he polish them every night? A load of random strangers on the internet are discussing them and need answers. :lol: 

we need to see it working on YouTube, by the way!



[but seriously... i think i get it Jim... _almost_! ta.]


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## condeesteso (25 Aug 2011)

Yes I believe it's a Darwinator. I think that is right because natural selection was put there to rid a species of the thick ones, and if these balls spin (I think they do) and you lean forward and nut yourself severely, then mankind was better off without you. Darwin said that, I simply reiterate.
And do you guys realise this drill is actually in France...? No, thought not.


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## alan2001 (25 Aug 2011)

^ That is my theory.

Try this when you speak to the guy:

*Avez-vous des boules qui tournent rapidement?

je peux les voir, s'il vous plaît?*

http://translate.google.co.uk/?hl=en&ta ... 0please%3F


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## condeesteso (25 Aug 2011)

very funny... I don't need google to translate that. Would I explain I am enquiring about the drill first, or just go straight in with this? What if he has actually got....


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## alan2001 (25 Aug 2011)

Start with the drill, then tell him it's being discussed on the internet, then tell him a bunch of men are *really* interested in his balls. Maybe he'll do you a nice deal to get you off the phone quickly.

It's totally not creepy or awkward, so don't worry about it man.


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## condeesteso (25 Aug 2011)

OK Alan, enquiries being made... will report back. Minor question over working condition or not, but Jim'll fix it for me :lol:


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## bugbear (25 Aug 2011)

It's a good job we're not discussing a flywheel controlled auto-feed drill; those things are hard to understand when they're right in front of you.

BugBear (owner)


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## marcros (25 Aug 2011)

bugbear":28diqxyk said:


> It's a good job we're not discussing a flywheel controlled auto-feed drill; those things are hard to understand when they're right in front of you.
> 
> BugBear (owner)



no picture... it doesnt exist!


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## bugbear (25 Aug 2011)

marcros":1es4uypn said:


> bugbear":1es4uypn said:
> 
> 
> > It's a good job we're not discussing a flywheel controlled auto-feed drill; those things are hard to understand when they're right in front of you.
> ...



I'll see what I can do - but be warned, the picture won't help. You *will* misinterpret what you see. :-" 

BugBear


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## jimi43 (25 Aug 2011)

Geeesus! And I thought Elgin had problems! :mrgreen: 

I think it is now a matter of personal crusade Douglas...we need to know how this works....

Ask him if it is an amphibian drill..... #-o 

Jim


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## condeesteso (25 Aug 2011)

On the case Jim. Soon as I know, you will too. I would like to get it over here, mainly because it has been a few years since we last swung a pair of French balls around the British Isles... n'est ce pas?


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## Scouse (25 Aug 2011)

Well, Kent's only just over the way from France; you two could nip over to get it and pick up some good wine on the way back... make a day of it! :-" :wink: :mrgreen:


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## marcros (30 Aug 2011)

I have just won this little beast...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... fresh=true


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## mickthetree (30 Aug 2011)

Been looking for a video showing one in action.

Not hand powered, but steam!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q04gAaH6u74


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## No skills (30 Aug 2011)

Thats a neat little thing. Bet Fred Dibnah had a full sized one


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## bugbear (31 Aug 2011)

No skills":omvdgtsu said:


> Thats a neat little thing. Bet Fred Dibnah had a full sized one



Yeah - one of his programs shows it drilling big holes in boiler plate.

Only takes 3 hours to get pressure up to drill a hole...

BugBear


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## alan2001 (31 Aug 2011)

And I bet he had one with massive rotating balls for knocking down chimneys!

(any update, condee?)


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## condeesteso (31 Aug 2011)

Hi Alan - afraid so. Gounthar went to considerable lengths to try and acquire it on my behalf, but it seems it may have been sold. He did say in a pm to me that the balls did rotate... but we won't get to see it in action over here. Thanks to Gounthar for his efforts... keep the collective eye open, can't be the only one ever made.


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## gounthar (31 Aug 2011)

I'll keep my eyes wide open. :shock:


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## bugbear (1 Sep 2011)

bugbear":3ib4m5mi said:


> marcros":3ib4m5mi said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":3ib4m5mi said:
> ...



Here we go:







Looks like a drill with a flywheel on the quill, right?

But where's the feed?

Here we go...

The quill is threaded, and passes through the (also threaded) flywheel. Consider two extreme cases.

#1 If the flywheel stays still, and the quill rotates, the quill descends.
#2 If the flywheel rotates at the same speed as the quill rotates, the quill does not descend.

Here come the interesting bit; the quill also "supports" the flywheel a bit. If there's back pressure from the quill, the quill/flywheel contact (and friction) is increased, so the flywheel rotates more, leading to more of case #2

If the back pressure decreases, the flywheel rotates less, leading to more of case #1

In other words, the rate of descent varies inversely with back pressure. Neat.

The adjustment screw, visible below the flywheel, adjusts the friction between the quill and wheel.

In short, this thing is VASTLY more complex than it looks.

Edit; google gives:

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/M._C._Gooding_and_Co

as the maker.

BugBear


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## marcros (1 Sep 2011)

Thanks BugBear. Is it regularly used?


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## bugbear (1 Sep 2011)

marcros":2wolt6ze said:


> Thanks BugBear. Is it regularly used?



Only when drilling holes in metals with big bits, which I don't do very often. There's simply not enough back pressure from wood to run the mechanism, and it applies too much pressure on small bits.

Fortunately, it's not my only drill \/ \/ \/ 






old-small-pilar-drill-wotsit-t24133.html?hilit=drill

BugBear


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## marcros (1 Sep 2011)

Very nice. I got a single speed union on fleabay last night. It is going to be a while before I get the Manguna back home, so I thought that I would get the Union to have a play with. I need to find a nice Record machine vice now for not too many pennies.


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## condeesteso (1 Sep 2011)

BB - if I am ever to understand that, I will first need to know where the 'quill' is, please... then I may stand a chance. i suppose a video is pushing my luck?


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## bugbear (2 Sep 2011)

condeesteso":2ypawtlg said:


> BB - if I am ever to understand that, I will first need to know where the 'quill' is, please... then I may stand a chance. i suppose a video is pushing my luck?



It's the uppy downy, roundy roundy shaft, in the middle, with the chuck on it?!

BugBear


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## Scouse (2 Sep 2011)

bugbear":1x21m4tb said:


> It's the uppy downy, roundy roundy...



I hate it when people use all those big technical words I don't understand! :lol:


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## Alf (2 Sep 2011)

My large h/c pillar drill functions the same way as BB's, which is why it's sitting in a corner of the workshop, upside down, and not getting used. The smaller one is probably a bit more useful, but my brother's got that on loan at the moment. Honestly? I love the gizmocity, _but for actual use I prefer my tailed drill press_... :-$


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## condeesteso (2 Sep 2011)

"It's the uppy downy, roundy roundy shaft, in the middle"
Got it BB, thanks. Just needed explaining properly, by one with a true command of our language. I will now decide how it all works, no problem.


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## gounthar (3 Sep 2011)

gounthar":1y5lyc6p said:


> Very interesting read!
> I am interested in this one, and hope to get it next week:
> 
> 
> ...


I went and picked up this little boy this morning. Oh boy does my back hurt now...
Anyway, the seller lost the handle, and something seems broken in the automatic "go-down" mechanism.
I'll post some more pics, but I may need some help sourcing some parts.


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## jimi43 (3 Sep 2011)

I love the way it can be turned around and positioned over the machine vise! Superb idea!

How could he lose the handle...it's in the photo!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## gounthar (4 Sep 2011)

The drill went from a location to another for the sale, and he forgot the handle on the first location. :evil:


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## Lee J (6 Sep 2011)

marcros":kfnuvsxd said:


> interesting read, Scouse. I fancy having a go at a restoration of one of these, if I can locate a local one, ideally with 2 speeds.
> 
> Are the chucks similar to a modern drill?



it just so happens my grandad handed me one down that he used to use in the motor trade in the 1950's. it's sat in my loft gathering dust and I work in leeds, hmmmm rubs chin


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## marcros (6 Sep 2011)

Lee J":2hou06oq said:


> marcros":2hou06oq said:
> 
> 
> > interesting read, Scouse. I fancy having a go at a restoration of one of these, if I can locate a local one, ideally with 2 speeds.
> ...



Lee,

I would be interested to see it. The only problem is if there isnt any pics, then it doesnt exist!

Where in Leeds are you?


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## gounthar (31 May 2012)

Hi,



condeesteso":3o9y8ocf said:


> here's another pic, kept it in a secret place...


Here is another one, less attractive, but with balls too:
http://www.leboncoin.fr/collection/322439536.htm?ca=17_s


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## S_L_Nielsen (28 Nov 2012)

Let me drag this old thread out. 

I first saw a pillar drill with the ball feed system here in Denmark, some 20 years ago.
I have been investigating it a bit on Practical Machinist.
Nice to see that there is more than two in the world with this system.


Best regards
Søren


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## S_L_Nielsen (28 Nov 2012)

Let me see if I can attach the pictures.

No such luck until fourth post..


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## S_L_Nielsen (28 Nov 2012)

Third post. Sorry..


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## S_L_Nielsen (28 Nov 2012)

Pictures here :











Thread from Practical Machinist here :

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/an ... ss-255119/

Best regards
Søren


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## marcros (28 Nov 2012)

i like that one. not so sure on the table for clamping parts to though.


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## gounthar (28 Nov 2012)

Nice one!


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## jaywhoopee (5 May 2013)

bugbear":2ltkbt2g said:


> Here we go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just picked one of these up at a car boot sale and I think it's the same as the one in your photo, so I'm incredibly glad to have found your explanation of how it works!






I couldn't find any markings other than a "British Made" sticker on the crank, but am I to take it that it's made by M C Gooding?

The main problem with mine is that the springs inside the chuck are all missing, so I'll need to figure out what to replace them with ...

It was only £4 and such a nicely made bit of kit I had to have it. Now I understand a bit more about how it works I'm even happier I bought it 

John


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## marcros (5 May 2013)

excellent buy!

not sure on the chuck, but it may be possible to replace it with a jacobs one?


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## AndyT (6 May 2013)

Chucks are fairly simple things. You should be able to find something to unscrew to dismantle it. If it's a 3-jaw, a common pattern has three wedge shaped jaws, each with a blind hole on either side. Three compression springs loosely fitted into the holes push each jaw away from its neighbours onto the inside of the cone. The springs are about the size of those in a ball-point pen, which is one obvious place to look for replacements.


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## jaywhoopee (6 May 2013)

AndyT":mcmsx6he said:


> Chucks are fairly simple things. You should be able to find something to unscrew to dismantle it. If it's a 3-jaw, a common pattern has three wedge shaped jaws, each with a blind hole on either side. Three compression springs loosely fitted into the holes push each jaw away from its neighbours onto the inside of the cone. The springs are about the size of those in a ball-point pen, which is one obvious place to look for replacements.



Thanks for the tip Andy,

I already managed to get into it, which is how I know the springs are missing.

I'll have a rummage around the house and try and find some suitable donor pens 

John


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## lica_mobilu (13 Aug 2013)

Hello bugbear,

Can you please upload a photo of the yellow label on the crank wheel? I have just bought a pillar drill just like yours but the label is 95% gone.

Thank you,
Bogdan


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## bugbear (13 Aug 2013)

lica_mobilu":3rl53ftr said:


> Hello bugbear,
> 
> Can you please upload a photo of the yellow label on the crank wheel? I have just bought a pillar drill just like yours but the label is 95% gone.
> 
> ...



This is probably more informative (from a catalogue)











BugBear


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