# Dear Members- A point and a reminder



## n0legs (29 Jun 2016)

Hello all.

On another current topic a joke has been made referencing the "in/out" subject.
The humour is not lost on me, nor do I expect it will be lost on many of the other members here. However I do hope that comments made along these lines in future will be :-
1, Few and far between.
2, Taken as a joke.
3, Written without any malicious overtones by their author.

I'm not over reacting, there's enough of that on the "Who's in, who's out" topic. But may I remind you that despite the obvious differences of opinion in that topic, we *ARE* like minded individuals hence our membership here. I have (and I expect you all to share this view) no desire for this place to implode.

Sermon over :wink:


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## NazNomad (29 Jun 2016)

It beggars belief that it's still being allowed to run and run (in circles, I might add).


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## sunnybob (29 Jun 2016)

discussions (arguments) on religion and politics are pointless. No one EVER changes their minds.
All such topics should be closed on any moderated forum as far as I'm concerned. I dont even read them.
On another forum I am on, a post was started about "saving the planet by going green" It was closed before the third post could be registered.


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## Adam9453 (29 Jun 2016)

I have to agree, i think its time its put to bed on the forum.
It would be nice to have a zero tolerance policy regarding it, to avoid arguments breaking out in topics which were not intended to be politics related.
The sharpening debates (arguments) should provide us with enough room to debate to our hearts content.


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## stuartpaul (29 Jun 2016)

n0legs":fmciwof7 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> On another current topic a joke has been made referencing the "in/out" subject.
> The humour is not lost on me, nor do I expect it will be lost on many of the other members here. However I do hope that comments made along these lines in future will be :-
> ...


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Is the 'joke' your bottles of beer post? If so I fail to see why you bothered!

If people want to discuss the issue then why not? Moderators have cleared it and are clearly keeping a close eye on what's being said and by whom.

If people don't like it don't read the thread, - simples.

Oh,- and don't start another one moaning about it either!!!


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## n0legs (29 Jun 2016)

stuartpaul":108kocor said:


> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Is the 'joke' your bottles of beer post? If so I fail to see why you bothered!
> 
> If people want to discuss the issue then why not? Moderators have cleared it and are clearly keeping a close eye on what's being said and by whom.
> 
> ...




I'm sorry SP if you don't see my point and it's not my "bottles of beer" posts either.
I won't be pointing out the topic I was referring to, I'm fairly sure the like minded members will "get it".
Maybe unfairly on my part to use it as a springboard, but it served as a trigger point or a realization that maybe a timely reminder was in order. 
Please feel free to exercise your own advice regarding any posts or topics I submit.
Thank you for your comments, it is important that we can all communicate as we have always done.


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## Nelsun (29 Jun 2016)

But it's not that "simples". Argumentative threads are damaging to a forum. Saying "don't read it then" is all too common a reaction... but it misses the fundamental point that members bickering (even out of sight of others) has a detrimental effect on the forum itself.


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## doctor Bob (29 Jun 2016)

is that a full argument?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlv_aZjHXc


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## sunnybob (29 Jun 2016)

See? I rest my case for closed threads. But I actually CAN just not read anymore of this one. (VBG).


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## Bm101 (29 Jun 2016)

Maybe if you use any sort of forum you should have to wear a shock collar at all times. If someone gets offended by what you write they have the opportunity to send you a shock. Of course you then have the option to shock them straight back _at a slightly higher voltage_. Then it's their turn again and so on each time incrementally increasing the pain. Make arguing on the net and bit more answerable in real life terms.
:wink:


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## woodpig (29 Jun 2016)

I've actually learnt a few things from it so I'm glad it wasn't closed straight away. What I can't abide is rudeness, there's no need for it amongst adults.


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## AJB Temple (29 Jun 2016)

I'm not sure I get this thing about closing threads. The one in question had some interesting points. A few people sometimes get a bit heated, but we can all apply a filter and just ignore those interjections.


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## Noel (29 Jun 2016)

n0legs":32rjfyha said:


> Hello all.
> 
> On another current topic a joke has been made referencing the "in/out" subject.
> The humour is not lost on me, nor do I expect it will be lost on many of the other members here. However I do hope that comments made along these lines in future will be :-
> ...



This "joke" was it the post referring to a commonly used Russian assault weapon and a particular religion?


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## NazNomad (29 Jun 2016)

Noel":1x9evyq3 said:


> This "joke" was it the post referring to a commonly used Russian assault weapon and a particular religion?



I hope nobody with a sense-of-humour bypass took offence at me NOT mentioning a religion in that post? :roll:


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## Noel (29 Jun 2016)

NazNomad":2c9o8pe3 said:


> Noel":2c9o8pe3 said:
> 
> 
> > This "joke" was it the post referring to a commonly used Russian assault weapon and a particular religion?
> ...



You really think your post was a joke? It was distasteful, disgusting.


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## NazNomad (29 Jun 2016)

In my opinion, the post supposing that the dentist was 'probably a Muslim' was far more distasteful than my ridiculing of his/her ignorance. But it's the internet, nobody is ever supposed to agree with anything, am I right?

If you were genuinely disgusted by my post, please be reassured that it was not my intention.


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## mind_the_goat (29 Jun 2016)

I'd like to thank the mods for letting that thread run for as long as it did, and thanks to the contributors. I enjoyed the conversation very much.
There were certainly a few yellow card offences and I have to agree with the ref on red carding the comment this thread refers to. 
Don't know what to use now as a distraction from my day job,


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## Austinisgreat (29 Jun 2016)

Naz,

If Noel really thought is was disgusting and distasteful surely he (as a moderator) could have deleted it.

I too have enjoyed the varied and very well argued posts of "the thread" on both sides, and would also wish wholeheartedly that it does not disintegrate to the extent that it damages this forum. You all are a friendly and helpful bunch which makes this different to a lot of forums which are elitist and not user-friendly for a newcomer.

Best wishes to all,

Andrew


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## Noel (29 Jun 2016)

Austinisgreat":hxgi2ol6 said:


> Naz,
> 
> If Noel really thought is was disgusting and distasteful surely he (as a moderator) could have deleted it.
> 
> ...



You think I didn't really think it was distasteful? I did see it as disgusting along with many others (as evidenced above), including complaints by PM. Moderating isn't just about deleting objectionable content, there many other ways to moderate a forum. 
And best wishes to you too.


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## clk230 (29 Jun 2016)

Its a real shame the thread wasn't locked as soon as the referendum had finished as some of us had asked , this would have stopped a lot of bad feeling amongst members I fear some damage has been done .


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## Random Orbital Bob (29 Jun 2016)

It was a judgement call and the fact of the matter is the thread had a lot of energy to it. It was a matter of seismic importance and it's clear from the "withdrawal" I'm sensing above that it struck a note with the members. Last weeks events were after all quite literally history in the making. It was for that reason the mods let it exist in the first place despite it clearly contravening the no politics rule. I did appeal on more than one occasion for consideration and respect when disagreeing, which believe it or not is entirely possible amongst those of a mature disposition.

It seemed to me that the week following the result was in fact more important than the run up since it became real, very very suddenly! Hence leaving it up for the same reason. During that time Noel, Chas and I felt compelled to comment too because amazingly, we're also part of all this.

But as of last night it just started to deteriorate. The comment about Phil was simply unacceptable and I have to say Naz, I think your AK47 line wasn't far off. I'm with Noel on that 100%. 

The arguments were becoming a little circular and it just seemed to have lost it's energy and vibrancy so it was felt the time had come. But "Je ne regret rien" as they say in Europe!

I think 99% of the contributions were interesting and some really insightful (Custard springs to mind) so I thank everyone for that.


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## Chippyjoe (29 Jun 2016)

I expect I will probably get a ban for this, but feel that certain members on here can come in and throw their weight about and get away with it. Without going into naming names, they know who they are as along with a vast amount of posters on here do as well.
My two penneth, politics should be banned on here as all it does is stir up the worst in people, if posters could be constructive in their posts fine, but it seems to me that if you state your opinion and it doesn't "fit" then standby for abuse.

Life is to short and there are a lot of horrible things that go on this world that are far more important than some of the rubbish I read on here.

Mark.


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## Noel (29 Jun 2016)

Chippyjoe":1hatg39z said:


> I expect I will probably get a ban for this, but feel that certain members on here can come in and throw their weight about and get away with it. Without going into naming names, they know who they are as along with a vast amount of posters on here do as well.
> My two penneth, politics should be banned on here as all it does is stir up the worst in people, if posters could be constructive in their posts fine, but it seems to me that if you state your opinion and it doesn't "fit" then standby for abuse.
> 
> Life is to short and there are a lot of horrible things that go on this world that are far more important than some of the rubbish I read on here.
> ...



Think you're safe from a ban Mark...
Have to agree, there are a few that really showed their true colours and for me, I think that's important. They did indeed try to act large with abuse and personal insults, peddling lies to try and legitimise their behaviour. As you say, most of us know who they are and I hope their abusive and divisive rants leave a permanent scar on their membership here. After all, the internet remembers everything.

As for politics, like religion, you're correct. Pity really.
Lastly,as Bob has said, the referendum thread was important to many and mostly it was civil and harmonious but as happens in some other discussions, there's alway a few who ruin things for the rest.


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## NazNomad (29 Jun 2016)

Random Orbital Bob":3igw4zyz said:


> ...and I have to say Naz, I think your AK47 line wasn't far off. I'm with Noel on that 100%




Fairy Nuff. As I said, it wasn't posted to upset anyone, just to highlight the narrow-mindedness of the post I quoted.


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## Baldhead (30 Jun 2016)

sunnybob":30ncuosz said:


> discussions (arguments) on religion and politics are pointless. No one EVER changes their minds.


I find myself more and more drawn to religion, funnily enough I've never been religious, although it's not any discussions I've had causing the changes, I think this may be because of my depression.
I do agree though that political discussions (arguments) are a waste of time, been there got the t shirt!

Baldhead


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## mind_the_goat (30 Jun 2016)

Baldhead"I do agree though that political discussions (arguments) are a waste of time said:


> Well, if you are happy to leave our leaders to do what they tell you is best for you then fine. Some of us feel the need to check up on them from time to time and that requires stepping out of our bubbles. It didn't change my mind but it definitely wasn't a waste of time for me. I think it was a far more useful discussion then one that might have been found on a specialist political forum where opinions would likely have been far more dogmatic.


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## Random Orbital Bob (30 Jun 2016)

I agree. For some indefinable reason, that thread had some credibility once you subtracted the xenophobia. Even the xenophobia had a role to play because it kind of documents the kind of proportion of folks who feel that way. Who knows, that same proportion may be roughly equal to that seen in society at large

At the end of that thread I felt more comfortable with the motives of the leavers. That their reasons were largely well intentioned when directly after the result I was just angry. In that sense, the at times divisive, I admit, debate actually helped me rationalise how the country is thinking. Before, I couldn't for the life of me imagine why anyone would have wanted to vote to destroy our economy after years of rebuilding it. Originally, I put it down to xenophobia and ignorance but I now believe it is the sincere rejection of a non accountable group that is fundamentally the problem. The consequences of that group are hitting our traditional labour markets breeding fear and resentment. 

I kept asking myself, hang on, we're not a country with 17 million racists, just no way. So a more plausible explanation was needed and that thread helped clarify it for me


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## woodpig (30 Jun 2016)

I have to disagree about deleting offensive comments in posts. It's very easy to do and I've seen it done often enough on other forums. You delete the offensive part them pm the offender telling them what you've done and why. Any further infractions will result in a month ban. What's so difficult?


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## Random Orbital Bob (30 Jun 2016)

It's not technically difficult to do Woody.......just staggeringly time consuming. Have you seen the post count, daily on this forum (and growing incidentally)? The sheer hours needed to spend moderating (which means reading EVERY post carefully and making a call) is unfeasible given most of us have day jobs and families. And, incidentally, do this voluntarily.

The in/out thread was growing at 2 pages about every 3 hours. That one thread alone kept me busy on the balanced moderating front because it was riddled with dangerous possibilities (which is of course the original reason religion and politics are avoided). I still say it was worth it for the reasons stated in my earlier but please don't under estimate the time necessary to moderate while trying to be reasonable, inclusive and balanced. Not tying to claim martyr status or anything silly, just preaching a bit on the realities of whats involved.

As a "yes and"....the forum software was written just before the Norman Conquest I believe. ye olde windows! It's clunky, difficult to use and counter intuitive so once you've made a call, you then have to execute the command down in the technical weeds. After moving a post or two I've usually lost the will to live!


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## Paddy Roxburgh (30 Jun 2016)

Random Orbital Bob":1m0d14y5 said:


> I agree. For some indefinable reason, that thread had some credibility once you subtracted the xenophobia. Even the xenophobia had a role to play because it kind of documents the kind of proportion of folks who feel that way. Who knows, that same proportion may be roughly equal to that seen in society at large
> 
> At the end of that thread I felt more comfortable with the motives of the leavers. That their reasons were largely well intentioned when directly after the result I was just angry. In that sense, the at times divisive, I admit, debate actually helped me rationalise how the country is thinking. Before, I couldn't for the life of me imagine why anyone would have wanted to vote to destroy our economy after years of rebuilding it. Originally, I put it down to xenophobia and ignorance but I now believe it is the sincere rejection of a non accountable group that is fundamentally the problem. The consequences of that group are hitting our traditional labour markets breeding fear and resentment.
> 
> I kept asking myself, hang on, we're not a country with 17 million racists, just no way. So a more plausible explanation was needed and that thread helped clarify it for me



I feel very similarly about the thread. It was interesting to be outside my normal echo chamber, I only know 1 leaver in the real world and I share a workshop with him and try never to discuss politics with him as he genuinely is a xenophobe and racist (although weirdly not with people when they're actually in front of him, just all the ones he's never met). For me it was reassuring to hear people like Cheshirechappie and Benchwayze be anti EU but open minded about immigration and immigrants. I'm glad the thread is over though because my boss was getting irritated about how much work time I was spending looking at the computer, my boss is very harsh with me (I'm self employed). 
Paddy


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## woodpig (30 Jun 2016)

Point taken Bob. I go on lots of forums that obviously use wildly different software so I suppose it must be much easier on some forums than others. You also have a very low "staff" count on this forum compared to many others I frequent.


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## NazNomad (30 Jun 2016)

woodpig":302kahi2 said:


> What's so difficult?



The difficulty lies in personal interpretation of the post and also the risk of appearing over zealous if you take away people's right to free speech.


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## woodpig (30 Jun 2016)

NazNomad":2zn80e4f said:


> woodpig":2zn80e4f said:
> 
> 
> > What's so difficult?
> ...



They're big boys, I'm sure they can work it out. It's a forum, not a democracy.


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## AJB Temple (30 Jun 2016)

I am with ROB, Bob on moderation. I used to be very heavily involved with a forum that involved a lot of professional and amateur pianists. Like an silly person I agree to be a moderator and found myself dealing with some quite incredibly abusive rants against dealers, other members, and goodness knows what. It was a real waste of time. Mods bent over backwards not to be trigger happy. The forum was much bigger and more global than this one, but I vowed "never again" as a moderator. This forum is actually quite mild and even on the offending thread there were only a few posts that were really out of order. Politeness should be the order of the day whether on the net or in person. Would be a shame to suppress the "personalities" though.


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## Random Orbital Bob (30 Jun 2016)

None of us like to be the heavy handed censor, it's not in our nature. And for the record, I'll tell you our pet hates:

- people who get angry and lash out with personal insults/insulting language....I mean whats the point...really. You just look a complete burk that cant control yourself. So you don't agree with the posters viewpoint, so what, go fly a kite when you're angry, stop posting.

- commercial operations that clearly value the highly segmented and targeted readership here but won't put their hands in their pockets to fund advertising so wriggle and squirm, duck and dive to "sneak" posts past the team. Pathetic, learn the value of investing in appropriate channels to market to grow your business. Prime the pump as we used to say.

- The "for sale thread 20 post warriors". These are another bunch of time wasters that think they're clever enough to put one over and avoid E bay fees by joining here just to flog some kit. They make 20 garbage posts in quick succession to qualify and then....BOOM...the tools go up.

- Any misuse of colour, creed, race, religion etc which is just common sense in this day and age. 

And....relax....that's better


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## MattRoberts (30 Jun 2016)

Good vent Bob!


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## Baldhead (30 Jun 2016)

mind_the_goat":20zw9871 said:


> Baldhead"I do agree though that political discussions (arguments) are a waste of time said:
> 
> 
> > Well, if you are happy to leave our leaders to do what they tell you is best for you then fine. Some of us feel the need to check up on them from time to time and that requires stepping out of our bubbles. It didn't change my mind but it definitely wasn't a waste of time for me. I think it was a far more useful discussion then one that might have been found on a specialist political forum where opinions would likely have been far more dogmatic.
> ...


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## NazNomad (1 Jul 2016)

Now, whilst I am perfectly happy to be the scapegoat from another thread chock-full of personal insults, it really doesn't bother me at all... but did we ever discover what made the OP post this thread in the first place?

Just wondering.


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## DiscoStu (1 Jul 2016)

I come from a forum where we used to have a particular member who would post a lot of controversial stuff and disagree with people and generally cause all sorts of issues and hassles including legal threats to the committee on a regular basis. He was eventually told that his membership was going to be reviewed and he then walked away from the club. What then happened was that the number of people taking part in the online forum declined because despite a lot of people moaning about him the controversy he brought made things interesting. 

As I was the brunt of a lot of the legal threats (I'm chairman of this club) I don't miss the threats but I do actually miss the guy and his alternative take on some things. If we all thought the same thing life would be pretty dull. 

Now having said that the referendum thread is well past its sell by date in my opinion and if it were down to me, I'd lock it and ask people to move on. Has nobody asked how to sharpen anything for a while?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ColeyS1 (1 Jul 2016)

Are we saying to use the for sale section, members have to make 20 posts before using ? I've seen numerous new members lately using it

Coley


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## CHJ (1 Jul 2016)

ColeyS1":7pph2ose said:


> Are we saying to use the for sale section, members have to make 20 posts before using ? I've seen numerous new members lately using it
> 
> Coley


Members have to have 20 posts to other areas of the forum showing participation in contributing sensible information or asking for genuine help and guidance before they can use the free for sale advertising facility to SELL items.

This restriction had to be put in place because UKW was getting 10's of FS post a day from first time or low post count folks aiming to avoid internet market place charges, with no intention of contributing to the forum.


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## Random Orbital Bob (1 Jul 2016)

DiscoStu":3v3hwwsj said:


> I come from a forum where we used to have a particular member who would post a lot of controversial stuff and disagree with people and generally cause all sorts of issues and hassles including legal threats to the committee on a regular basis. He was eventually told that his membership was going to be reviewed and he then walked away from the club. What then happened was that the number of people taking part in the online forum declined because despite a lot of people moaning about him the controversy he brought made things interesting.
> 
> As I was the brunt of a lot of the legal threats (I'm chairman of this club) I don't miss the threats but I do actually miss the guy and his alternative take on some things. If we all thought the same thing life would be pretty dull.
> 
> ...



Er.......the referendum thread is locked (was 2 days ago).

I understand about the controversial poster syndrome (Jacob springs to mind). It might interest you to know that as a measure of how tolerant (of controversy and eccentricity) this forum is, some "controversial" individuals are banned from pretty much all alternate woodworking forums that retain membership here. Quite frankly the mods here don't give a monkeys about controversial, they care about rudeness and insults ie when someone takes umbridge at the controversy and stoops to a personal level, slinging mud. It's the self control and lack of maturity we moderate, not the content per se. 

One last point about Jacob. He has a particular, traditional style and does raise a few eyebrows now and then! It particularly butts up against modern technology where the rub is "why did you buy it, you've wasted your money". The respondents in those cases are usually the ones that start insulting ironically. Jacob seems to be something of a lightning conductor for rage! He also has a strong sense of social justice and is clearly very interested in current affairs. I rather suspect that political interest sometimes spills over into the forum when really it's about woodworking....another rub point.

But my point in raising Jacob (sorry to use you as a case study by the way Jacob) is that, here he is, warts and all (sorry again....just paraphrasing). Not banned, posting away like a proverbial pig in a poke. So I hope people can discern the difference in the moderating ethos here which is that the censorship is not aimed at controversy, it's aimed at unacceptable behaviour. Particularly, repugnant, personal, insulting behaviour. I know online communities are full of it (the word troll springs to mind) but we don't want this place to get like that do we?


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## heimlaga (1 Jul 2016)

I don't always agree with Jacob but I am aware that he is an adult with a right to vote. I have also noted that he uses his brain capacity more actively than most people though I don't always agree with his conlusions and I tend to tell him rather frankly than I disagree.
Jacob and every other forum member is in his full right to express his oppinions and nobody is entitled to insult him for that. 
SHAME ON THOSE WHO DID IT.

I think we have an inherent problem in the modern rather urbanized and globalized society. I call it "comfort bubbles". When a human brain is flooded with too much and too complicated facts and even more lies and threats all at once without time to process the facts something is bound to go wrong. 
What usually seems to happen is that people isolate themselves in comfort bubbles together with likeminded people of the same social standing and with similar experiences of life. Inside the comfort bubble they try to avoid uncomfortable input from the outside. That makes them feel safe. Every person who isn't up to the standards is considered a troublemaker and expelled. The phenomena is further exaggerated by the fact that lots of human interaction theese days go by facebook where everyone try to pretend that they keep up with the joneses and try to pretend that they fit in.

Then suddenly two bubbles collide.
A typical example may be someone who has worked 10 years in the decent part of the Finnish job market who come to discuss work related politics with someone like me who was unfortunate enough to end up on the parallell substandard job market where bribes and unpaid wages and nonexistant safety gear are facts of every day life and where a troublemaker cannot ever get another job. 
Because of the "bubblification" of society both persons tends to believe that the other is a liar and a fool. While the fact is that both realities exist. It is just a matter of luck on which side of the divide you find yourself. 
I am sure there are similar reality divides in Britain too. Let's say between a person from London and a person from Foula. Between a well paid banker in London City and an unemployed welder in the poorest parts of Glasgow. 

I think all people should try to open up our personal bubbles and accept that the daily realities are the way they are. That all of theese realities exist. Only then constructive exchanges of thoughts and oppinions will be possible and only then it will be possible to sort out the problems that abound in societies all over Europe.


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