# Why use farrow and ball paint



## ColeyS1 (3 Nov 2013)

Doing a recent job and a customer specified using farrow and ball paint. Think its the first time ive used it and hopefully won't have to use it again. The easiest way to describe it is its a bit like antivandal paint - it never seems to dry thoroughly enough to rub down between coats





I tried leaving it around 3 -4 days between coats and it still clogs up sandpaper like a goodun. 




I used farrow and ball colour on my bench but got dulux to mix it, it seemed to level out alot better and was defo easier to denib between coats. 
Is it just the colours that make this paint appealing ? 




I've given the one on the left 2 top coats and it still needs another cause it looks a bit patchy 
Pee'd right off using it to be honest
Coley

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## RogerP (3 Nov 2013)

There's an interesting article and view on F&B here ...

http://traditionalpainter.com/farrow-and-ball-paint


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## Cottonwood (3 Nov 2013)

I have a few tins of f & B eggshell oil but once they are used up I wont get no more. It is very fiddly to use, needs cutting with turpentine otherwise its too clumpy and stiff. It starts to dry very fast which means it doesnt work out nicely and easily, even with a decent quality brush (I used purdey's). Personally I havent had any trouble with it staying soft for more than a day except recently on a table frame. But I suspect that was because I painted it out in the workshop. It was still soft and tacky after 2 days, no good to apply 2nd coat. But when I brought it indoors into a warmer atmosphere it recovered fine. I have had the best results using zinsserr 123 primer on new wood. I painted some kitchen doors (using a small roller) whichh worked fine. That was over a polyuthrane ikeaa finish.
I have tried craig & rose acryliic eggshell, way easier to use, covers superbly, like smooth creamy yoghurt. Some nice colours too.


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## ColeyS1 (3 Nov 2013)

That does make an interesting read. Do you think they might have made a massive quantity and somehow forgot to add the bit that makes it dry ? Took the best part of 4 hours and loads of sandpaper to get it ready to what i thought would have been the last coat.
Having stuff mixed would be the best option but what if they wanted something else made to match a few years down the line. 


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## RogerS (3 Nov 2013)

Excellent read, thanks, Roger and sums up my own experience of F&B. I do also know that if the paint is put on too thick then it forms a skin on the surface and this stops the underlying paint drying out. I am not a great fan of F&B since they went all eco-friendly and understand that other manufacturers (Morrells?) can mix up to match F&B colours.

Zinsser primer is the DB's. I won't use anything else now.


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## Peter Sefton (3 Nov 2013)

We are using some F&B at the moment on some cabinets I just finished making. The outside of the cabinets are finishing fine but the interior which is a red colour Radicchio No 96 is just not drying and the finish is very poor. I do like the colours they make but have also had problems before on some windows I made, the paint looked great but only lasted 1 or 2 years max before needing major repainting. Will be seriously thinking before using it again.
Peter


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## ColeyS1 (3 Nov 2013)

The inside of the cabinets must look identical in colour to these then 
Its a shame cause it was quite an enjoyable job before the painting began. 
A guy came in the shop and wanted to borrow a length of 4x2. He touched the edge of the bookcase so gently with the end ( didn't even notice he did it ) and when I went to look I noticed 4 inchs of the edge completely back to the primer colour. I dread to think how it might look a few years down the line. Hopefully it can be carried in without causing any damage :| 

When I was going through sandpaper after sandpaper denibbing, for some strange reason I kept on thinking to get some talcum powder to sprinkle on the sandpaper first. Have I completely dreamt that :?

Coley

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## Peter Sefton (3 Nov 2013)

I have no tried talc on the paper but I will mention it to the painter tomorrow, I am sure he is not looking forward to coming back after the weekend to tacky paint. It does already look knocked about.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Nov 2013)

I thought I'd read it somewhere but may have dreamt it  can I be cheeky and ask for a bit more info on the cupboard that's painted on the inside ? Sounds interesting 

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## bugbear (4 Nov 2013)

ColeyS1":3fcrjj07 said:


> Doing a recent job and a customer specified using farrow and ball paint.



Colour men to the middle classes...

Lots of sensible people buy their colour chart, and get the local Dulux centre to mix it up :lol: :lol: :lol: 

BugBear


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## Peter Sefton (5 Nov 2013)

ColeyS1":ym0nzbkv said:


> I thought I'd read it somewhere but may have dreamt it  can I be cheeky and ask for a bit more info on the cupboard that's painted on the inside ? Sounds interesting
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk



Sorry it's not that interesting red on the inside and a green on the outside looks better than it sounds.
Cheers Peter


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## Peter Sefton (5 Nov 2013)

bugbear":2xni19te said:


> ColeyS1":2xni19te said:
> 
> 
> > Doing a recent job and a customer specified using farrow and ball paint.
> ...




I have had the local guys mix up Dulux to F&B ral colours, I think Dulux is a better paint but they just don't look the same :!: much is the pity


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## ColeyS1 (5 Nov 2013)

Peter Sefton":gux92g64 said:


> Sorry it's not that interesting red on the inside and a green on the outside looks better than it sounds.
> Cheers Peter


Sounds interesting  I made a wardrobe for home and wanted ash coloured mdf on the inside but stained mdf on the outside. It really made me scratch my head trying to figure out how to stop the stain colouring the bits I wanted leaving natural colour. I was thinking your painter may have had some tricks up his sleeve where the two colours meet 
I'm trying to learn spraying and find im spending as much time thinking about how im gonna spray the thing and assembling it as I am making it :roll:

Coley

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## Sgian Dubh (5 Nov 2013)

ColeyS1":q3yipfo3 said:


> wanted ash coloured mdf on the inside but stained mdf on the outside. It really made me scratch my head trying to figure out how to stop the stain colouring the bits I wanted leaving natural colour.
> I'm trying to learn spraying and find im spending as much time thinking about how im gonna spray the thing and assembling it as I am making it


A job that's ideal for a spray gun. Mask off the bits you want natural ensuring the edge or corner where the break is to occur is masked off with masking tape firmly pressed down.

Mix some spirit dye with lacquer thinner, or alcohol, and fill your spray gun. Choke down the air pressure a bit and mist the dye on. Don't get the surface too wet so that the dye flashes off quickly-- this prevents the colour bleeding under the edge of the masking tape. Keep building up the colour until you get the result you want. After that you can remove the masking and apply your clear coats. The finish on the front of this cabinet was achieved using a similar technique to what I've just described. Slainte.


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## jimmy rivers (5 Nov 2013)

bugbear":1gfqf74z said:


> Lots of sensible people buy their colour chart, and get the local Dulux centre to mix it up :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> BugBear



+1


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## ColeyS1 (5 Nov 2013)

Sgian Dubh":fb2yc6vo said:


> A job that's ideal for a spray gun. Mask off the bits you want natural ensuring the edge or corner where the break is to occur is masked off with masking tape firmly pressed down.
> 
> Mix some spirit dye with lacquer thinner, or alcohol, and fill your spray gun. Choke down the air pressure a bit and mist the dye on. Don't get the surface too wet so that the dye flashes off quickly-- this prevents the colour bleeding under the edge of the masking tape. Keep building up the colour until you get the result you want. After that you can remove the masking and apply your clear coats. The finish on the front of this cabinet was achieved using a similar technique to what I've just described. Slainte.


You make that sound so simple ! Cabinet looks fantastic by the way 
I've only ever brushed or ragged on the stain cause I've been too scared to spray it. What ratio thinners to stain would you say you mix ?

Coley

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## Sgian Dubh (5 Nov 2013)

I just tend to sloppily do the proportions, but I think they're usually something 25% to 35% dye and the rest is lacquer thinner (aka cellulose thinners). I use this solvent in preference to alcohol because it flashes off quicker.

Incidentally, the tambour in that cabinet is dyed rather than stained, and there's a description of the colouring up procedure along with, for this thread anyway, extraneous discussion of tambour manufacture at *this link*. Slainte.


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## Woodfinish Man (8 Nov 2013)

ColeyS1 once your confident enough to spray then using a tinted Precatalysed or harder wearing Acid Catalyst lacquer is the way to go. These lacquers can be matched to Farrow & Ball, Dulux, BS, RAL, Pantone shades (naming just a few) and are far more durable, cost effective and easier to spray than paint.

Hope this is of assistance.


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## RogerS (8 Nov 2013)

Woodfinish Man":1tld0byo said:


> ColeyS1 once your confident enough to spray then using a tinted Precatalysed or harder wearing Acid Catalyst lacquer is the way to go. These lacquers can be matched to Farrow & Ball, Dulux, BS, RAL, Pantone shades (naming just a few) and are far more durable, cost effective and easier to spray than paint.
> 
> Hope this is of assistance.



I agree but for many of us the luxury of a dedicated spraying area/spray booth is just that... a luxury.


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## ColeyS1 (8 Nov 2013)

Woodfinish Man":3qgh9v0d said:


> ColeyS1 once your confident enough to spray then using a tinted Precatalysed or harder wearing Acid Catalyst lacquer is the way to go. These lacquers can be matched to Farrow & Ball, Dulux, BS, RAL, Pantone shades (naming just a few) and are far more durable, cost effective and easier to spray than paint.
> 
> Hope this is of assistance.



That's good to know, my concern still remains with the customer asking for a matching piece of furniture 3 years down the line. Is the scanning and mixing technology there to be able to order 'the same' but years apart?
An example was I took a glossy lego head into b and q to be colour matched. Just before the guy was about to start mixing he got me to take a quick look at the screen. Compared to what I was after it looked orange :shock: Another chap who had heard what had happened, came over when I was looking at a colour chart instead. He reckoned he struggled getting them to match stuff and went to Brewers instead. This is all a bit he said she said but went on to explain that b and q's machine uses some kind of red laser beam to scan the surface, meaning on anything shiny the colour often had a red tinge :? I can't see why the guy would have had any reason to lie, and it certainly explained the scanning yellow but ending up with orange situation. 

Fifth and final coat of paint last night - moved it earlier out the way, now got nice finger marks to touch up. I'll never use the paint ever again as much as I like the colours. I bought some 'little greene paint' in error a while ago so will be experimenting with that to see how easy it is to apply, denib and most importantly ruddy dry and be durable. I'll have a load of freestanding furniture to make myself very soon for myself so would like to find some heritagey colours that actually perform as they should. 

Cheers
Coley

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## ColeyS1 (8 Nov 2013)

.


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## Woodfinish Man (8 Nov 2013)

That's good to know, my concern still remains with the customer asking for a matching piece of furniture 3 years down the line. Is the scanning and mixing technology there to be able to order 'the same' but years apart?


Well there may be a very slight difference but it will be negligible. In my opinion there's no doubt you should be trying tinted lacquers instead of paints....the difference in durability is significant. Light Green Paint company is another range that can be made in these lacquers!


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## ColeyS1 (8 Nov 2013)

At the risk of sounding thick ..... whats a tinted lacquer ? What would be the full process to finish mdf or tulip wood for example ?

I've just gone into homebase and picked up these





Every single dulux colour chart they had on the shelf  I was pointed to the relevant aisle and the shop assistant came back with his other workmate to help me pick them all from the shelf - A++ to them for being super helpful whilst I continued to slag off farrow and ball which they also sell :roll: The plan is to just compare it to the likes of f&b, crown, laura Ashley etc.
Workshops out of bounds for the weekend as any dust will settle and stick to the surface. Will be glad when they get delivered Monday !

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## Woodfinish Man (8 Nov 2013)

A tinted lacquer is basically a hard paint, especially so if a two pack Acid Catalyst Lacquer is used. These products are very popular amongst the shopfitting and furniture manufacturing sector as they are very durable, easy to apply (by spray) and come in a range of different sheen levels.

The basic application onto MDF would be: 

One sprayed application of PC1 White MDF Primer followed by one or two coats of Precatalysed Promatch (can be tinted to over 20,000 shades!). Each coat is touch dry after 20 mins and recoating can take place after 60 minutes.

The AC system is applied in a similar way except that it comes with a catalyst where there is a 9:1 mix ratio with the lacquer. AC2 in particular meets BS 6250 severe use specification.


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## ColeyS1 (8 Nov 2013)

The thing with this job, was the customer quite liked seeing subtle brush strokes as all the window shutters were hand painted. 
I just nipped into Brewers and was very unimpressed to say the least. I was gonna bite the bullet and get the same F&B raddichio mixed in a paint they'd recommend -
"We can't do that, its their colour" what he did say was he could mix it to the nearest dulux colour. 
So this seems like the only readily available option ? 

Am I really limited to just the dulux colours found on the charts. Does the scanner just point to the closet dulux one available, is there no way that another manufacturers paint can be replicated exactly ? He also showed a farrow and ball paint sample of the same colour I've been using. It looks nothing like the finish I could get so wonder if they have dramatically altered the formula since the sample board was made. 

Im gonna stick to veneered mdf or solid wood things from now on 

Coley


-secretly going to b and q to see what the dulux raddichio turns out like :evil:

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## Drudgeon (9 Nov 2013)

The Farrow & Ball colours are in a different league, and (in my experience) cannot be matched from Dulux, I know that Leyland, and also Morrells have the F&B colours programmed into their mixers to re-produce the colours, but they are never 100% the same, I have one more than one occasion witnessed an interior designer walk into a job and instantly recognise items that have been "matched" to F&B rather than using the actual paint.

I preersonally cannot get on with the new water based eggshell, I have done two projects in the last month finished by hand with F&B Estate Eggshell, one was undercoated with Morrells 2k and one with Morrells WB primer, neither would dry properly, no matter the environment/temps. :?


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## scholar (11 Nov 2013)

To be fair to F&B, they are quite explicit in their instructions that F&B Estate Eggshell must be applied to a base of the requisite F&B primer - I have no idea why this makes such a difference as I am not a chemist, but evidently it does.

Having read a lot of the complaints, as far as I can tell, they all report the experience of applying F&B Estate eggshell to a third party primer/undercoat - it is an understandable concern for professionals who need to be able to get their topcoat(s) on without delay, and having to apply another primer is extra work and time. I have not had problems when following the instructions - usually a base coat of Zinsser BIN or 1-2-3 followed by the F&B primer/undercoat, followed by the topcoat(s). Seems to work fine, whether hand painted or sprayed. The Zinsser primer would not be necessary for some things, but it does cover and fill very well.

I too find that colour matched paint (I use Morells who are good) does not come out quite the same - they will look the same side by side, but the overall effect is different - F&B would I think say that it is due to the quantity of pigment in their paints which gives them a depth of colour that is not so easily matched - again, I am no expert, but the consensus is that the real thing is easily distinguishable from a colour matched alternative. Some shades seem to match better than others.

Of course F&B are not the only mfr of nice paint Little Greene is a good alternative, just different colours; it does not seem to have the primer incompatibility of the F&B, again, don't know why..

Cheers


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## RogerS (11 Nov 2013)

You still get problems applying it over their primer. I had some Douglas Fir (why does anyone use this wood. It is ghastly stuff to use. Only got it as it was cheap at auction and I'd not used it before. Never again). I digress. My fault originally. Applied F&B external primer and got bleed through from the DF. Reading their leaflet that primer is not suitable for oily woods like DF. Recommended solution was to wire wool it all off which i did. Then apply their stain block. Then re-apply their primer undercoat...two coats IIRC followed by the top coat of eggshell. Still got bleed through.

Zinser BIN'd it. Job done. Will never use F&B again.


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## mind_the_goat (11 Nov 2013)

There's a lot more to the appearance of a finish than just the mix of pigment. Think of car paint that can have any number of other products added to give a different result, It's the additional fillers that can give paint it's 'trade mark' appearance by scattering the light in different ways and no colour match machine will work that out. It will be the effect of the fillers on the colour perceived by the eye that results in the 'wrong' colour mix when people try to match a certain finish. Eyes don't perceive absolute colour and machines have difficulty matching what we see. Even 2 samples that look the same under one light source may look completely different under another.


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## blackrodd (11 Nov 2013)

I don't know if this is any use but a company near me who use pine and come from Exmoor advertise their finish as i coat of F&B eggshell oil and two coats of clear to finish, sprayed i should imagine.
Regards Rodders


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## bugbear (11 Nov 2013)

mind_the_goat":b7s9kg74 said:


> Even two samples that look the same under one light source may look completely different under another.



It's called metamerism

BugBear (who does colour printing technology)


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## ColeyS1 (11 Nov 2013)

Bookcases delivered today and customer very happy 

I took the farrow and ball sample colour in and had some paint scanned and mixed with dulux. 1 coat of waterbased quick dry, and one of oil based dulux eggshell and it covered pretty good ! Rubbed down the next day with 400 grit, no sticky cloggyuppy mess and a second topcoat and all was done. The colour dulux matched it to was 'lacca' now in my opinion the paint they mixed looked a darn good match to the little colour sample from the farrow and ball brochure..........the thing is, there paint doesn't seem to match there own colour brochure ! I wasn't sure if I was imagining it so took a sample of proper wood raddichio paint to be scanned- if everything was consistent it should have came up with the same 'lacca' dulux offering - it didn't ! It then offered 3 dulux alternatives. I finally got her to rescan the little paper farrow and ball sample and it still came back with ' lacca' thats evidence enough for me to say the colour you end up with might not be the same as the one on the card. 




The block of wood near the bottom is the f & b paint- the small square im holding is the f&b sample, and the top board is the dulux paint that was matched to the sample square. 
This day in age when monitors and printers can be callibrated together, I find it fairly poor that something so important as buying paint should be such hard work. 

So if I get a customer in future who asks for farrow and ball, I'll buy the smallest tin of there paint, paint it on some wood, then get it scanned. I'll admit the finish won't be quite the same but altleast it will dry properly with minimum of fuss and will no doubt be much more durable. 
If we get pushed for a more authentic heritage paint I'll try anything else but not farrow and ball again- it was hassle from start to finish. 
Coley
Edit: Not sure if it's mentioned in any of my previous posts but I did use the recommended f&b primer so shouldn't have been any compatibility issues


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## bugbear (12 Nov 2013)

But that means, if a customer chooses a color from the F&B brochure AND you use "genuine" F&B paint, the customer won't get the colour they've chosen!

So...

Should you match the Dulux to the brochure (from which the customer made his/her selection) or to the paint (which is the "real thing", but the customer has never seen)?

BugBear


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## ColeyS1 (12 Nov 2013)

Guess it'll have to be explained. I'll do a neater sample of the colours so they can see the difference themselves. It'd be sooooooooooo much easier if the farrow and ball sample matched there paint, and the bloody stuff dried !!!! :roll: :lol:




Just spotted my red bristled dusting brush. Anyone would think I used it to paint them, not for dusting off after 2-3 days between coats 

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## mind_the_goat (12 Nov 2013)

"metamerism"

I bet it's rare that you get to slip that word into a conversation


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## Drudgeon (14 Nov 2013)

But i also bet that if you got the Dulux colour swab for the colour you eventually used, that it probably wouldn't be an exact match to the end product either, it really is very frustrating trying to get colours right.

At the end of the day, if you explain everything to the customer from day1, then they cannot claim to not have what they asked for, the other issue is whether or not the customer would have to pay a slightly higher cost for using actual F&B rather than a colour match in Dulux/Leyland etc to take into account the problem encountered in using F&B, but that will be down to personal choice.

F&B colours really are stunning, and they really do have an edge that your Dulux/Leyland etc trade paints just do not have, I'm lead to believe that this is down to them using better quality ingredients in the paint.

Whatever it may be, let's just hope that F&B develop the product into a more useable paint that we can all use again without the drying issues, unfortunately I don't think you will ever get a WB (hand applied) finish that matches an oil based finish, but we need to get used to it because it is the way of the future.


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## Drudgeon (14 Nov 2013)

But i also bet that if you got the Dulux colour swab for the colour you eventually used, that it probably wouldn't be an exact match to the end product either, it really is very frustrating trying to get colours right.

At the end of the day, if you explain everything to the customer from day1, then they cannot claim to not have what they asked for, the other issue is whether or not the customer would have to pay a slightly higher cost for using actual F&B rather than a colour match in Dulux/Leyland etc to take into account the problem encountered in using F&B, but that will be down to personal choice.

F&B colours really are stunning, and they really do have an edge that your Dulux/Leyland etc trade paints just do not have, I'm lead to believe that this is down to them using better quality ingredients in the paint.

Whatever it may be, let's just hope that F&B develop the product into a more useable paint that we can all use again without the drying issues, unfortunately I don't think you will ever get a WB (hand applied) finish that matches an oil based finish, but we need to get used to it because it is the way of the future.


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## Peter Sefton (14 Nov 2013)

The painter completed the two cabinets I was making mid last week, i fitted them up on friday ready for Sarah to show them off to her friends on Saturday. When the grand unveiling happened the bloody doors stuck! F&B struck again - the painted doors had glued themselves to the never drying door stops. i now understand what the abbreviation F&B stand for :!:


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## tekno.mage (4 Dec 2013)

mind_the_goat":37bfh4z2 said:


> "metamerism"
> 
> I bet it's rare that you get to slip that word into a conversation



Unless you are talking about matching colours  Having said that, the last time I used metamerism in a conversation with a customer, she had to ask me what it meant.


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