# If you could change your career



## ByronBlack (10 Dec 2006)

I'm still having issues with my career, really need a change, but can't for the life of me think of a way out or a new career to get into, so in the spirit of that, being nosey, if you could change your career, what would you change it to and why? (woodworking excluded, as that would be an obvious one


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## davy_owen_88 (10 Dec 2006)

I currently build guitars and I love it, I can't really imagine wanting to change careers but since I'm still quite young and I don't have that many bills to pay. All that could change though since its not really a big money earner 

I recently did some electrical work around the house and thought to myself 'I could do this - its quite interesting' but becoming registered to certify your own work actually costs you money, not to mention the numerous qualifications you need and the yearly fee just to be 'part of the group' so that idea lost its charm... but if I really needed a new career it would have to be a hands-on sort. I never could see myself sitting behind a computer for a living, I prefer doing that in my spare time :lol: 

In all honesty, I just hope I can build up enough of a good-name building guitars before I *need* the regular income so I can keep doing what I love. There will always be a market for better quality things than you can get mass-produced, I just hope Ibanez don't sort out their quality control issues


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## chiba (11 Dec 2006)

P-rnstar. 8)

OK, OK, something like a warden in a national park; UK, New Zealand, Canada... pretty much anywhere that's not too hot really.


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## garywayne (11 Dec 2006)

I had a stint as a Film extra back in the 90s. 8) rubbish hours. I had to travel from Portsmouth to a different part of London every morning to be on site for 7:00 AM to do at least a 12 hour day. That's the bad bit aside. The job itself was brilliant. I had so much fun, and met so many different people, excellent. The pay was good to. I only wish that I could have done it full time.


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## RogerS (11 Dec 2006)

Air-crash investigator. 

I like all aspects regarding flying plus I've an engineering type of brain and like puzzles. The added bonus of maybe identifying the cause and so preventing a similar catastrophe is another plus.


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## Jorden (11 Dec 2006)

Believe me Roger as an ex BGA Safety Officer visiting many airfields for many years you don't want to be an air accident investigator, it can be very messy. Having said that it was only when a good friend of mine and fellow committee member passed away from an illness that I resigned.

Dennis


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## Steve Maskery (11 Dec 2006)

BB
You have my sympathies!

I embarked on a career-changing process in 1992. The first part, getting rid of the old career (we did Cat5 cabling and PCs, mainly) was easy. I spent a lot of money and worked my doo-dahs off earning an MBA, and now I find that few people know what an MBA is and even fewer care. 3 years after graduating I'm still job-hunting. Oh, I get interviews, even second interviews, but there are a lot of well-qualified and able people out there and simply not enough quality jobs to go round. Until recently, my friend with whom I did my MBA was operating a machine which squirts jelly into pork pies, but it doesn't give me any satisfaction to know that I'm not alone.

I'm lucky in that I enjoy a nice middle-class lifestyle, despite not earning it. And I'm thoroughly enjoying what I'm doing at the moment. This DVD lark is occupying my every waking moment, but I'm loving it, and wish I'd been doing it 20 years ago!

And a quick plug - for some exciting (to me, at least) news, check out my DVD blog 

But to answer your question...

If I had my time again I'd study ophthalmology. I've had two cornea grafts and I'm mega-grateful not only to the donors but to all the eye-professionals who have kept me going these last 30 years. It's too late to do that now, but I am trying to get a job as a General Practice Manager. I can't sell the skills I wish I had, I have to sell the skills I do have. I could do this, given the chance, and it would be a way of putting something back into the NHS from which I have so greatly benefited.

In the meantime, I'll have to be content with being Steve Maskery, Internationally Renowned Woodworking and Media Superstar.

(It sounds better than it really is, I assure you).


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## Nick W (11 Dec 2006)

I've recently come to the conclusion that what I should have done in life is architecture. But its too late for that now. If only the careers advisor at school hadn't been so blinkered ...


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## Alf (11 Dec 2006)

Hmm... archivist for the Hawley Collection I think...  

Cheers, Alf


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## Vormulac (11 Dec 2006)

Chief oiler and tweaker for Playboy magazine?

Seriously though, with the little one being six months old now and SWMBO into the unpaid portion of her maternity leave, I am under considerable pressure to find a different job. Being a civil servant, the pay sucks, but there is a degree of flexibility and camaraderie here that I've not experienced in other industries so I'm not exactly over the moon about having to find something else, especially when SWMBO earns three times what I do when she's working!

I guess to answer the question I would love to do something practical like working with wood or possibly as a mechanic, but I don't have the expertise to do either for a living.

V.


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## wizer (11 Dec 2006)

The term 'Can of Worms' springs to mind Byron. I'll try to keep a lid on it for now 

As you know I am in pretty much the same boat as you mate and I just don't know the solution. In an absolute ideal world i'd actually like to do all of my hobbies as a job. It's a bit of a 'Good Life' dream but I'd like to have a small farm whereby I earn a bit of money off the produce, I do a bit of woodworking for money, a little photography and some sort of catering venture. The idea is to do a little of each thing so as nothing becomes a chore. Yes, much like Mr River Cottage. The first problem with his of course is that I am only fully skilled in catering, the other hobbies are still in the (very) fledgling stages. Whilst buying a farm isn't out of our reach, it will be much harder for the missus to take the initial wage drop and as such I can't sell her on the idea just yet. Despite the fact that she is also miserable with her job.

If your talking about re-training or going back and altering my career path. Hmm lots of things interest me now that didn't when I was at school. Unfortunately I left school with no qualifications at all. This was all my fault, however I do feel that back then we was not really encouraged to think about what we want to do with our careers. The options then seemed utterly boring. Either go to uni or get a job in an office. Going to uni, at the time, seemed pointless. I ended up in an office doing IT and i'm still here.

I think I'd find building surveying very interesting but again re-training is just not financially viable at this time of my life. We are getting married next year and then hope to start a family.

I am thinking of doing my GCSE's and A-Levels at night school actually. It seems that, even to further my career in IT, I'm going to need them.

Ok, didn't quite keep the lid on it, but you did ask


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## woodbloke (11 Dec 2006)

ByronBlack":hs0fc3lm said:


> I'm still having issues with my career, really need a change, but can't for the life of me think of a way out or a new career to get into, so in the spirit of that, being nosey, if you could change your career, what would you change it to and why? (woodworking excluded, as that would be an obvious one



Whatever you do, my advice is _*don't*_ teach - Rob


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## StevieB (11 Dec 2006)

I have been through this cycle as well. Do I change, do I stick at it and look for promotion etc etc. It can be very depressing and debilitating at times. In the end I applied to be a copper in the Met, sailed through the interviews but then failed the eyesight test (despite an opticians certificate that I met the grade). I also looked at going to medical school (I am a scientist and teach med students) but figured the cost was not worth it for my circumstances at the time. I thus stayed where I was and went hell for leather for a promotion - got it with a job change (still in science) and am now priced out of changing careers forever - couldnt afford to start at the bottom of any other career.

My ideal job though - design draftsman or architect. Wanted to do it ever since school but never had the opportunity to take it any further.

Keep plugging away BB, take as much satisfaction as you can from your hobbies and count the years to retirement! Hope you get sorted soon,

Steve.


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## ByronBlack (11 Dec 2006)

Hey guy's, thanks for your experiences, i'm quite surprised so many of you are in the same boat, does this say something about our country? I just find almost everything I look into a blocked route unless your an immigrant or benefit seeker (to get all the training) or a young person to get onto the training schemes/work placements. It seems if your a british citizan over the age of 23 you are left out in the cold to battle for yourself.

Steve - Funny you mention being an Optom (optician) That is actually my main career, apart from the few years I spent freelancing as a web developer. It's where I am currently - at Optical Express (no one go there, it's a shambles!!)

For me to study to become an optom would take about 7 years due to me not being able to support myself while fulltime training, I have however started early negotiations with a well known brand to setup a joint venture, as ive been in the industry for nearly 8 years I've got a good set of contacts, BUT i hate the job, so its a no win situation 

The missus and I have also currently been looking into franchises, Subway, and iSold it are a couple that have interested us, but again the route is difficult unless you have atleast 30% of the cost upfront in cash.

My other option i'm looking into at the moment is Journalism or professional writing - anyone here done that?


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## promhandicam (11 Dec 2006)

Vormulac":1ansk45c said:


> . . . . especially when SWMBO earns three times what I do when she's working! I guess to answer the question I would love to do something practical like working with wood or possibly as a mechanic, but I don't have the expertise to do either for a living. V.



Stupid question but here goes, why don't you chuck in the day job, let SWMBO go back to her high paying job and, while keeping half an eye on the nipper, get some practical experience in on the woodwork or mechanics?

Steve


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## Vormulac (11 Dec 2006)

promhandicam":3mj3kfii said:


> Stupid question but here goes, why don't you chuck in the day job, let SWMBO go back to her high paying job and, while keeping half an eye on the nipper, get some practical experience in on the woodwork or mechanics?
> 
> Steve



Not stupid at all, Steve! In many ways the most logical and appropriate solution, but sadly there are other factors at work in our situation, most of which make me want to spit, but it's not something that I can do very much about.


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## promhandicam (11 Dec 2006)

ByronBlack":272732if said:


> . . . Funny you mention being an Optom (optician) That is actually my main career . . . . It's where I am currently - at Optical Express



Hi BB. 
Is it working as an optomotrist / optician that you hate or the company / environment that you don't like? As I said in a previous post there are plenty of opportunities in the field of low vision / optical services in developing countries that may be more rewarding than what you are doing presently. Just a thought :-k 


Steve


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## RogerS (11 Dec 2006)

Jorden":3a65v3sv said:


> Believe me Roger as an ex BGA Safety Officer visiting many airfields for many years you don't want to be an air accident investigator, it can be very messy. Having said that it was only when a good friend of mine and fellow committee member passed away from an illness that I resigned.
> 
> Dennis



Hi Dennis, I can understand where you're coming from but that still wouldn't put me off. Even been in two gliding accidents myself....one down to the CFI and the other all by myself


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## beech1948 (11 Dec 2006)

Hi all,

It is both a simple thing and a very difficult thing....to change careers. I have made the change from Teacher of math/science to Local Gov to IT with IBM based in Brussels and then via various IT companies to Product Manager, Marketing Manager, Marketing Director and finally 10 years ago I was made redundant for the second time and said "sod it" to employment and now work for myself as a consultant initially in IT but now in Change Management and Organisational Design as well as an Executive Coach/ NLP Coaching.

I mentioned that merely to give some credibility to what I want to say next.

I have learnt that staying in a job I disliked made me withdrawn and bitter.

I found that changing jobs was moderately easy provided I could show some little credibility and also a lot of bullshit and sheer cheekiness. I am very competitive and I guess it shows. In the last 5 years I have spent about £8k on leaning to become an NLP Coach...damned expensive...but good for my soul and good for other people. After 36 years of work I now seem to be able to enjoy my coaching and change management.

The hard part is to decide "What do you want to do" not in terms of a job title but in terms of what that chosen approach to earning a living will give you back.

So ask two questions, alternately and possible 5 or 6 times.
1) What do I want
2) When I've got it what will I have 
Repeat 6 times.

best regards
Alan


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## Jorden (11 Dec 2006)

> Even been in two gliding accidents myself....



That's why your name is familiar to me  

I think most of us has had a scrape at one time or another that made us interested in air accidents, I had to land a Puchacz with only half a tail once. I had to read all the accident reports as they came in and comment on them. The vast majority were silly things, a few were pretty nasty and some made us chuckle - like the chap who wrote " I couldn't decide whether the North South runway was landable so I crashed onto it " (from the West)!

Dennis


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## Anonymous (11 Dec 2006)

My wife tries to keep them from hitting each other,shes an air traffic controller at Stansted. A bit worrying, shes very forgetful and indecisive at home :shock:


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## Shultzy (11 Dec 2006)

After leaving school I joined a civil engineering company for 18 months, and then moved on to work for Birmingham City Council Engineers Dept. My biggest claim to fame is designing a one mile stretch of the Kingsbury Road in Birmingham. I became interested in computing when pc's were introduced into the council in 1981, and in 1983 moved to the finance dept, to work with computers full time. The IT Systems section was formed in 1990 where I continued to work as a network specialist until I retired in March 2006 after 36 years with the Council.

I started engineering because I wanted a job out in the fresh air, and it was the only one I could think of. Computing started as a hobby and this is why I think I enjoyed it so much. 

Maybe thats the secret turn your hobby into a job.


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## Anonymous (11 Dec 2006)

There seem to be an awful lot of guys here dissatisfied with their jobs but with a love of woodworking and presumably a shed full of tools.

Thought about fitting kitchens?

It's not the glamour end of the woodworking world but it pays well and doesn't need any formal qualifications. Any local good kitchen shop will tell you that decent fitters are as rare as hens' teeth and earn over a grand a week!

Do a good job and you've got a potential client for one of your bespoke masterpieces!

Just a thought...

Brad


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## PowerTool (11 Dec 2006)

Done a few jobs :-
Farm worker/tractor driver
Warehouse worker
DJ
Policeman
HGV driver
Traffic planner
Bulk chemical logistics (to name most of them)

Some for different firms at different times;have enjoyed every job I have done,and career moves have generally just happened,rather than being planned.

Spend most weekends doing "handyman" work(plumbing,joinery,electrics,gardening,car repairs,driving etc.)

So could quite happily go and do that,but also used to enjoy metalwork and if I had chance,would have done agricultural engineering.

Andrew


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## Shadowfax (11 Dec 2006)

Not sure how I would start now but having been a customs officer and then changing my mind and joining the fire service, where I stayed for thirty years, I would say if you want to change, and you can - do it! Life is too short, otherwise.
I would be a firefighter again. Even after two former colleagues got blown up last weekend at a fireworks store I would still do it again.
(Prayers for their families please).
I really hope those of you who are hankering for a change manage to make the break. I always enjoyed my work and I know it does make a big difference.
Best wishes.

SF


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## WoodStoat (12 Dec 2006)

A year ago I nearly died, in fact so nearly that even now, when doctors hear the results of my blood tests they insist I must have made a mistake, anyone with those levels would no way have survived etc. Long story but essentially it was a genetic weakness in my liver.

Whilst lying in bed, bloated to 25 stone with fluid and with eyes that would have made a buttercup look dull, and wondering whether to cut my wrists in the bath or take a taxi to somewhere beautiful and shoot myself, when the pain got too bad, the thing which was at the foremost of my mind was the number of things I'd wanted to do but had allowed something to get in the way of. 

I'm still here, and doing my old job part-time whilst I accumulate some clients for furniture, build the old portfolio up etc. In five years we're going to sell up and get a small hotel in the Highlands (which actually makes sense financially as you can borrow money for commercial ventures without life insurance, unlike a mortgage. Nobody would now sell me life insurance), with outbuildings which can be converted into holiday cottages and a large workshop. Found a backer already, another man who has the money in his career but hates it and wants an excuse to get away to Scotland to keep an eye on his investment (ie, go fishing).

If I have one bit of advice to offer, it is, don't go to your deathbed wondering, what if?


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## Anonymous (12 Dec 2006)

Further to my post yesterday about kitchen fitting, last night I bumped into an old mate of mine who for years has been a househusband while his wife went out to work. Now the kids are older he has set himself up as a handyman - advertising in newsagents, chip shops etc. He charges £100 a day and is turning work down, he's that busy!

Maybe it's because I've always been self-employed but I can't understand why anyone would stay in a job they hate that does not even pay that well, rather than taking a flyer and going solo.

As Woodstoat puts it; 


> If I have one bit of advice to offer, it is, don't go to your deathbed wondering, what if?


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## wizer (12 Dec 2006)

Brad Naylor":1qn2tjn8 said:


> I can't understand why anyone would stay in a job they hate that does not even pay that well, rather than taking a flyer and going solo.



Fear Brad, gutless fear. In all honesty.


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## Anonymous (12 Dec 2006)

Wizer,

I'm sorry if it sounded like I think it's the simplest thing in the world to throw in your job and work for yourself. I actually think that voluntarily to leave the cosy if brain numbing corperate world and strike out on one's own must be one of the most couragous things one can do.

For me it was easy; my father and grandfather were both self-employed and I knew nothing else. I've worked for myself since the age of 18 (I'm now 46) Consequently I've no pension to look forward to, live in the same semi we've had for 20 years, and will be working 60 hours a week till I drop! However, I would not change a thing!

Just ask yourself what it is you are afraid of;

Fear of failure?
Fear of not being able to pay the mortgage?
Fear of the the loss of social status?
Fear of working alone?

Make your own list and strike out the ones that look ridiculous when you see them written down.

If you then decide to stay where you are - fine. Just stop whingeing! :lol: 

If you decide to take the plunge - try reading the book 'Feel The Fear and Do It Anyway' 

Oh, and keep SWMBO in the loop! My wife would still love me to have an ordinary 9-5 job!

Cheers
Brad


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## wizer (12 Dec 2006)

Brad Naylor":3j1r6ud2 said:


> fine. Just stop whingeing! :lol:



Good Point Brad, consider it buttoned. :-$


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## syntec4 (13 Dec 2006)

Just thought I would add my 2p 
I've been thinking about this a lot recently (4 years actually). I too hate my job as a sales manager. I started out as an engineer visiting sites installing/repairing the equipment I now sell. I was bullied into the sales dept by my boss, he needed me to bring in more money for the company or else kinda thing. Unfortunately because I was so worried about loosing my job, I tried VERY hard and managed to close some big deals (luck not skill). That was the end of my technical position  The thing is though that I hate doing the sales thing so much it's making me ill. I have to stand up in front of some of the biggest cheeses in business and do presentations on our equipment/software I hate doing that, I'm not a 'show off' type of character. Forcing myself to do it every day is hell. 

The really bad thing is now I cant change. My other half doesn't want to work and doesn't want to listen to the fact that I need to do something with a lot less salary and a lot less pressure. I would love to do something like fitting kitchens etc, but It would be ages before I could make anything like the sort of money I make now. Who would pay the bills and keep SWMBO in the new cars and clothes that she needs all the time if I made the change ? 

I found out 2 weeks ago my dad has got cancer as well. He's been saying he's not bothered as he's had a great life. he's always done jobs that gave him satisfaction. Motor mechanic, Cabinet maker, JCB engineer - all sorts. My Mum is the steady earner in a job that she loves -Vet. I can already see that I will not have those opportunities :evil: 

If my pension is going to end up being worth anything, I will be able to retire in 31.1 years if I make it that far. 

My advice from being in this situation is that if you have an understanding partner, or none at all. Change jobs whilst you can. You would be amazed at how ill long term stress can make you. Don't get yourself into this situation 

:wink: 
PS Sorry Brad - I've had my Winge now...


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## WoodStoat (13 Dec 2006)

If I bought Mrs Stoat a new car or an expensive frock, she'd think that either (a) I'd gone barmy, or that (b) I'd been cheating on her. If she was in the habit of demanding such things, I'd suggest it was time she got a higher paid job. If she expected me to be miserable, and hate my life, just to get money to squander, I'd wonder what I ever saw in her in the first place.


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## beech1948 (13 Dec 2006)

Syntec4,

First for the mods...this is not a personal attack on Syntec4 its a reasoned and thought out reponse to his post.

My reaction to this is that I want to help Syntec4 from the bottom of my heart, with respect and empathy but I need to say this:-

I don't believe you Syntec4. Thats because your written message shows tha you are OK at sales but have some issues with FALSE beliefs about sales and sales people.

1) Sales people are show offs. Utter and complete rubbish. The best sales types are those who are competant, therefore coming from competance is confidence. If you can't "show off" then you can only just be yourself. 

So what if your not a show off, who cares other than your preconcieved ideas and the rotten value you have about it. If your not a show off type then what sort of salesperson are you, principled, technically aware, human, similar to your audience, family man, flirt, humorous.etc etc...you get the picture here I hope.

You have a limiting belief about what you need to be to sell which is not true. How do I know this....I sell £6 million a year just being me, boring old fart, ex-scientist and non-show off that I am. 

2) There is also an indication that you are thinking the people in the audience are better than you, more worthy than you, more able than you. What rubbish. They are sitting there trying to understand what your company can do for them and have almost no time to worry about little old you. Another daft belief. Get rid of it.

3) You were bullied into sales. Are you a Yes man, have you no spine. Of course you were not bullied you agreed to do it, you seem to be OK/good at it. Start facing up to the fact that you chose to do it.

Give yourself permission to become the sales person type you want to be.

4) Sales is nothing special. Its just a few guys presenting to the best of their ability. Some very good, some OK some poor. Sales tricks don't work...but you know that. You should also know that people buy from people...that si the buyer needs some liking for the people they buy from or at least a modicum of respect. So why do they buy from you. Do they laugh at you, do they show disrespect, do they mock you. 

Of course not. They are buying because you bring something to the table they want, its valuable, it does something for them.

I do not believe that you hate your sales activity so much...you are still doing it. You maybe have a false memory of being a techy...you know the ones who are always being told what to do by the salesman and who are not recognised or rewarded by their company.

RETHINK your values and what you are doing as a sales person, REVALUE yourself. If you can't then just quit and find something else.

I see much of your post as a set of misconceptions about your role, yourself and what you are doing. Maybe its a class issue, maybe its to do with your self image as being a techy needs to be updated to be more

of a business man not a widget supporter.

If you don't like this reply then don't post such a message again.

If your mad at me then good. Go to the pub and have drink and consider.

In respect, with empathy and support
Alan G. Beech
Mind Strategy Ltd
Executive Mentor and Coach


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## Anonymous (13 Dec 2006)

Syntec 4, I know exactly where you are coming from, I was in sales for a while 18 years ago, I was OK at it but hated every moment.

Sometimes now I find myself saying in my head your a lucky b****rd, you can't beat running your own business especially when you are getting the financial rewards.

Just a note to anyone thinging of running their own business, I worked as a cabinetmaker for a couple of companies for 15 years, the last one paid really well,i was the senior guy and it was a risk leaving.
The first year after setting up, I repaid all the borrowed money and took a decent salary.
Last year I tripled what I earnt when I was employed. I've paid of my morgage 12 years early and have investments. The job is still stressful but only because its a success.
I am not trying to blow my own trumpet, just tell people that its not all doom and gloom, if you can produce *good quality furniture at speed* and get a few lucky breaks you can do all right.


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## Vormulac (14 Dec 2006)

beech1948":1w0a00kr said:


> If you don't like this reply then don't post such a message again.



I don't like your reply, does that mean you won't post such a load of sanctimonious bullsh*t again?

To launch an attack like this on someone who is sharing their situation on the topic at hand is reprehensible.

I don't like writing comments like that, and I'm sure you have a great deal of experience and friendly advice to offer on a number of subjects, but your post was out of order.

Syntec4, I think a lot more of us understand your position than you might think!

V.


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## wizer (14 Dec 2006)

Sorry beech but I also don't buy into that Life Coaching rubbish. I don't think the tone and attitude of your message helps syntec or those of us in similar situations.

Sytnec I can totally empathise with what you are saying. In fact, reading your message, it felt that I had written it myself.


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## Alf (14 Dec 2006)

Methinks, if a posting needs a message to the mods to explain it's not an attack, maybe it's best sent by Private Message anyway. Just a thought...

Cheers, Alf


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## WoodStoat (14 Dec 2006)

Surely a book is in the offing - Shape Your Mental Sale Strategy with the Spokeshave of Confidence and the Rasp of Esteem - Six Lessons From the Lives of Great Woodworkers.

- Dovetail your Strategies
- Mould your Expectations
- Yew can do It
- Chisel your Margins
- Planes of Achievement

and if that doesn't work

- Stick your Head in the Bandsaw


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## syntec4 (14 Dec 2006)

Well I didn't mean to cause such a Harsh respone  

However I do stand by my post. I have re-read it several times and I have not said anything that should have caused such a response. I was simply posting my view of my situation. 

Thanks to everyone who did understand what I was on about. 

Alf - I agree, possibly a PM would have been more appropriate. Although I now know that I wont post anything like that again  

Thanks everyone

Lee.


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## Anonymous (14 Dec 2006)

Lee,

I think everyone except that sanctamonious git can identify with your situation.

It makes me realise how lucky I am in having my wife onside. She has cheerfully supported me both emotionally and financially over the years through a business failure, subsequent bankruptcy, and a minor stroke. 

I too am in South Manchester. If you ever fancy a pint send me a PM

Cheers
Brad


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## Michael7 (14 Dec 2006)

[No message]


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## Noel (14 Dec 2006)

"_syndic4, 

First for the mods...this is not a personal attack on syndic4 its a reasoned and thought out repins to his post. 

My reaction to this is that I want to help syndic4 from the bottom of my heart, with respect and empathy but I need to say this_:- "

Looks like a personal attack to me. A reasoned and thought out personal attack. Respect? No. Empathy? No. Support? No. 
I'm going to leave your post intact at the moment and perhaps subsequent opinion may convince you that you made a severe error of judgement in posting such nonsense. The fact that you attach your business details to the post gives your views even less credibility.


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## woodbloke (14 Dec 2006)

Lee - the post from beech was entirely uncalled for, agree with others in their condemnation. My change of career from teaching to civil servant (via numerous other routes) was not voluntary though I am very happy with what I do now, even though the money isn't as good.....however the total lack of stress in my new job _more_ than compensates for this. For me this is *the* most important spin off from a career change. In teaching I (and all other teachers without exception that I knew) were under a huge stress load, which for me had a damaging effect on my health. Health, in my view, comes before everything else and if you ain't got that.......well. Best of luck with a career change - Rob


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## Jake (14 Dec 2006)

woodbloke":3sq6v4ub said:


> Lee - the post from beech was entirely uncalled for, agree with others in their condemnation. ..... Best of luck with a career change - Rob



The problem is that Syntec says he can't change jobs, so maybe he does need to rethink his attitude to his current job as Beech suggested. Sympathy is nice in the short term, but it doesn't change anything. 

FWIW, I think that aside from some of the top and tail lines which might have been omitted or reworded, the post was actually more potentially helpful than a 'there there' post. 

Of course, the approach might not work for Syntec, and if so that suggests that he really needs to look at whether he is as stuck in the job as he thinks he is. But, I don't think it such a bad thing to suggest that he might reflect on why he thinks he hates the job so much, and see if actually he can get past those reasons if he is stuck in it.


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## Alf (14 Dec 2006)

Despite what you might think of a posting, and even though apparently one moderator at least doesn't deem it worthy of comment, could we avoid name-calling in retaliation? Please?

Cheers, Alf


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## ByronBlack (14 Dec 2006)

Jake, I agree to a small extent that Beech's post was there to try and help Syntec4 re-evaluate things and to try and work out the real reasons for his feelings, this is something i've been trying to do for a few months, and although difficult and not always clear, it does help bring some things into the clear. In my particular situation, its made me realise just how much I do dislike my job and just how much I do feel undervalued, hence my quest for a job that fulfills my requirements.

However, I think beech was unnesacarily harsh, and included far too much opinion. The sign of a good coach is one that doesn't colour his work with personal opinion, instead aks questions of the coachee that allows him/her to realise there own answers and solutions.

Beech, if you used that tone and approach when coaching me and my colleagues, I believe you would probably get a slap or at the very least a very demoralised and angry coachee.

But back onto the subject of change.

I personally think one of the hardest challanges, is to realise what it is that you enjoy doing, and what you can feel that you could do succesfully. So far in my short working life, i've been:

- A graphic designer
- A photographer
- An optical assistant
- A lab technician
- A lab manager
- A business owner
- A website developer
- IT support
- A trainer
- An office assistant

And throughout each of those (many of them were very short) I couldn't find what it was that I enjoyed about those roles, and quickly grew bored and unfuliflled.

So, how do you go about 'finding' that elusive job in the first place? Is it pot-luck, or are there methods of evaluation we can use?

My current train of thought, is leaning towards journalism/writing, but when looking into it, I only hear negative things back about it's difficult to make a living, blah blah blah, but isn't that the case with ever job?


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## woodbloke (14 Dec 2006)

Jake wrote:


> he can't change jobs


Jake - Lee, I feel is unable to change careers for various reasons which are apparent from his post. If push came to shove and he was _forced_ out (as I was and then had a breakdown) then 'can't' doesn't apply. I then had to rapidly re-evaluate just about everything I was doing at the time. Fortunately, my other half was fantastically supportive and everything has worked out well in the years since I left the profession. One awful repercussion tho' was at the time all this happened, we both neglected to pay enough attention to the kids, with the result that my daughter began to seriously self-harm, was bulimic, started to smoke etc. Again, she has come through this dark patch and is great now (apart from the ciggies, which I detest) - Rob


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## promhandicam (14 Dec 2006)

syntec4":1i0y2bxg said:


> : . . Alf - I agree, possibly a PM would have been more appropriate. Although I now know that I wont post anything like that again  Thanks everyone Lee.



Lee, I, and I'm sure others, appreciate your honesty and hope that you will feel free to post your feelings in the future. 

As to the post from Beech, I find it surprising that someone would comment, in a professional capacity, on the basis of someone giving their twopenneth worth on a _woodworking_discussion forum. I personally wouldn't like to jump to the conclusions you have done on the basis of the few lines that Lee wrote.

In closing I hope Byron (who incidentaly started this thread), Lee and anyone else stuggling with career decisions, that you end up finding a job that you enjoy doing. I realise once again how fortunate I am that I have a rewarding job that I enjoy.

Steve


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## Gill (14 Dec 2006)

Hmmmm..... although it might make unpleasant reading to some, there's wisdom in what Beech is saying. If you were making a table and it turned out with wonky legs, next time you'd do something different. It might be that you'd learn a new woodworking technique, or you might make a different piece of furniture altogether. Heck, you might even learn to appreciate what you've made despite its shortcomings, enjoying the lovely joints and wonderful finish whilst you ignore the uneven length of the legs.

I get the impression that all Beech is saying is "if what you are doing isn't working, do something else". That doesn't necessarily mean changing your activities; it can mean changing your perspective.

There's a school of thought that we only do something because it brings us pleasure. That's even true of things that we don't like doing! For example, a lot of us don't like going to work but perhaps we like the social status it gives us, or the money, or getting out the house and away from the missus  . Sometimes we can't bring ourselves to stop doing something we don't like because it would mean we'd have to stop doing something we do like. It helps you endure the unpleasantness if you can connect it to the pleasure it brings. I suppose it's a way of saying 'count your blessings'.

I remember all the good advice and sympathy you guys gave when His Lordship was made redundant from MG Rover a couple of years ago. In the eyes of others, he took a huge gamble, a huge salary cut and changed his career totally. However, he hadn't enjoyed working in factories for the past 30 years and he'd only tolerated it because of the money. He knew he wouldn't get the same wages doing that sort of work anywhere else, so the change of career was much easier for him to undertake. He's now a (very) mature student who has part-time work that he'd do on a voluntary basis if he wasn't being paid to do it anyway. Even if MG Rover was to offer him his old job back at an increased wage, he wouldn't go back.

Gill


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## Noel (14 Dec 2006)

I daresay Beech's post may have been simply a suggestion to "try something else or change your attitude etc" but my objection and my view that it was nonsense and insulting was based simply on the manner it was written in - patronising and totally without knowledge of Lee's personal circumstances etc. Other comments such as suggesting to go to the pub if you don't like my post, don't post again if you can't take my opinion and needing to mention the sum of £6m as if trying to validate his opinion. Similar to somebody ringing the Samaritans with their head in a gas oven and the person answering the call simply said "catch a grip of yourself..?"
Beech, if he had to comment, really could've written and used a more friendly, polite and more sensible approach.


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## Anonymous (14 Dec 2006)

I agree with everything you've just said, Noel. 

I'm sorry I called him a 'sanctamonious git' in an earlier post - you should have picked me up on it.

I can only assume that Beech is touting for business when he lists his professional titles at the end of his post. If this is representative of his standard of sales pitch then it would appear that he is not quite as good a salesman as he thinks he is!

Cheers
Brad


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## beech1948 (14 Dec 2006)

Hi,
Interesting. Sanctimonious git ...eh! :roll: 

Sales pitch..touting for business...eh! :twisted: 

Harsh...eh! :shock: 

There is no evidence of any of that. 8-[ 

Just as well I can take it as well as dish it out. :lol:


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## WoodStoat (14 Dec 2006)

Perhaps 'dishing it out' isn't the best way to offer advice. My doctor girlfriend used to know a shrink who would tell people to pull themselves together and stop wasting his time, worse things happen at sea etc. But then he was struck off and ended up selling quack remedies for impotence out of adverts in smutty magazines, from a bedsit in Harrogate.


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## Anonymous (14 Dec 2006)

What's wrong with Harrogate?


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## WoodStoat (14 Dec 2006)

Nothng wrong with Harrogate, it was more the bedsit I thought carried the moral of the tale. At least he could go for a cup of tea and a sticky bun at Betty's after he'd counted up his haul of postal orders and stained fivers at the end of another day hard at it.


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## Noel (14 Dec 2006)

Ok everybody, including me goodself, Lee, Brad, Alan et al, let's get back to business. 

I was in Harrogate once.

Rgds

Noel


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## JFC (14 Dec 2006)

Bryon , do you think its working for someone else thats getting you down or do you really hate gorgeous women sat in front of you every 10 mins asking you to look into their eyes :lol: 
The reason i'm asking is even as self employed you have to do things you don't like doing .


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## ByronBlack (15 Dec 2006)

JFC

I think you misunderstand - i'm not an optician, i'm the guy who actually makes the glasses! And trust me, there aren't that many beautifull women who come into shop, our usualy clientele is usually your slightly too old to be wearing a mini-skirt grandmother, or your nuckle-head thug.

It's the actual job I dislike, and partly working for someone else. I was a freelance webdeverloper for three years and quite enjoyed the freedom that I had with that, so I would like to go back to something that was partly freelance.


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## RogerS (15 Dec 2006)

ByronBlack":36opymfp said:


> a mini-skirt grandmother



The French have a very succinct phrase 16-64. 16 from the back, 64 from the front :wink:


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## JFC (15 Dec 2006)

Byron 
A friend of mine has just take on a 33year old that is putting himself through collage to become a carpenter and joiner . He wants to learn and having worked with him he is picking it up very fast . I think you are past the picking it up stage so you may find you will get paid a larger sum than you think with the right person.
I can put you in touch with the CITB if you like as i am on their list of employers but i'm afraid i wont be able to employ you , but they don't need to know that eh :wink:


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## ByronBlack (15 Dec 2006)

HI JFC

That sounds interesting. I've always though i've missed the boat when it comes to carpentry/joinery, so I would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction


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## Anonymous (16 Dec 2006)

ByronBlack":2bhsws4e said:


> I've always though i've missed the boat when it comes to carpentry/joinery



What are you Byron, early thirties? No way have you missed the boat in woodworking if that's what you want to do!

I bet there are plenty of small cabinetmaking firms and one-man bands in your neck of the woods who would love some extra help if the right guy walked in off the street. 

I, for one, would much rather take on a more mature bloke with enthusiasm and a little life experience than a spotty kid who wants Radio ****in' 1 on all day long!

As for formal training and qualifications - in the big corporate world these may be important, but at a small business level nobody gives a jot! You can either do the job or you can't. So you're either in or you're out.

Money? You'll not get rich, but I would have thought that 20-25k was achievable with application and hard work.

And then, when the boss wants to retire, buy him out.

Hey, come & work for me! :lol:


Crucial thing is though, Byron, is this what you want to do? If it is, then be that guy who walks in off the street. And that's the hardest part.

Good Luck
Duncan


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## ByronBlack (16 Dec 2006)

Duncan

Thanks for the encouragement, much appreciated! 20-25k would be extremely comfortable for me so it's definitly worth me looking into to. I've tried for the last couple of months to get in touch and spread my CV/cover letter etc around the small firms without much success at the moment.

But i'll keep looking and talking to business owners and wth a bit of luck something might come up. (I'm 27 by the way).


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## Anonymous (16 Dec 2006)

Byron, if you wanted a job at my place I would want you to be knocking on the door on a regular basis, showing me what you have made and asking for a trial.

So in my opinion I think you need to be a bit more forceful in your approach, if I recieve a CV I generally toss them in the bin.

At 27 there is no problem with age, far from it, mature enough to have a good work ethic but not to set in your ways.

A tip I would give you is not to say to much about your future aims (if this is the case), i.e. setting up on your own as a cabinetmaker, mainly because it means you intend to leave once you have learnt enough and also eventually you might be competition to me.

if you can put across your enthusiasm and skill, someone will give you a go.


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## Anonymous (16 Dec 2006)

Byron,

Senior's dead right.

CV's, letters, phone calls are all a total waste of time. You need to get out there knocking on doors, showing enthusiasm, pleading for a month's trial at minimum wage to show what you're made of.

If you're ever going to sell any furniture you've got to sell yourself.

Duncan


PS 

If anyone did ask for a CV I'd edit it down a little! 27 yrs old and 11 careers behind you already might suggest to some a slight 'grasshopper' personality!


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## ByronBlack (16 Dec 2006)

Thanks for all the suggestions guy's, i'll definitly take them on board - just need to get some nice example items built now 

Duncan - with my CV I probably only have about 5 positions listed on it (the longest ones, rather than the short 3-6month ones that ive 'tried' out).


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## mr (16 Dec 2006)

Are you not interested in doing more freelance web work?
Mike


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## JFC (16 Dec 2006)

Byron ,
I will give CITB a call and ask if you like ? They used to pay the collage fees for students but you would need to have one day a week to go .


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## Matt1245 (17 Dec 2006)

> I, for one, would much rather take on a more mature bloke with enthusiasm and a little life experience than a spotty kid who wants Radio ****in' 1 on all day long!



Well i was gonna pop over with my coffee table and dazzle you into giving me a job  but if you don'e like my radio choices, then your loss :lol: :lol: 

I do listen to radio 4 as well tho.

My wife thinks i'm odd.

Matt.


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## Anonymous (17 Dec 2006)

Matt1245":18vt1rc5 said:


> My wife thinks i'm odd.
> 
> Matt.



Matt,

It's five o'clock on a Sunday morning and you are in a chatroom talking about woodwork.

I think your wife may have a point! :lol: 

Duncan

PS I would have used Galaxy as my example of a bobbins radio station, but the non-Mancs out there might not have understood what I was talking about. We switch between Radios 2, 4, & 5. 

Unfortunately just as The Archers is about to start, my collegue always seems to need to use the table saw, the planer, and the thicknesser simultaneously!

Radio 1 died when Mark & Lard left!


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## OPJ (21 Dec 2006)

I've stepped in to the world of Bench Joinery and right now, I can't honestly say I can think of anything else I'd _rather_ be doing. My specific job and the company I work for isn't ideal (very basic, limited work, very repetitive) but that'll hopefully change in 2007.

I've always been very passionate about football, so I'd have to say an alternative career would lie down that route somewhere. I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do when at school. I was very good at most subjects but nothing seemed to interest me enough.
I like to say I could play football for a living, but even for that kind of money, it appears it can be awfully cruel at times.

I've always enjoyed talking about and discussing football and at one time I thought of going down the old journalism route... But then, I remembered - I HATE the media!


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## mel (21 Dec 2006)

big dunc 
radio one died when , dave lee travis and steve wright moved on 
i listen to galaxy now :shock:


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## Shultzy (21 Dec 2006)

Ah - DLT, his phoneless cord, and his pub quiz gotcha - memories


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## mel (22 Dec 2006)

dont forget the 
WHACK WHACK HOOOOPS


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## Anonymous (23 Dec 2006)

Made a major change 7 years ago and though I really liked my old career, my new one is perfect for me and I couldn't imagine changing or leaving where I work. 
As an aside, I found that promotions and increases in salary came from simply enjoying what I do and being prepared to work hard at it

Once you know what it is you REALLY want to do (realisitc goals please), the rest is easy(ish)


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## Scrit (23 Dec 2006)

If I could change my career?....... Easy, really, I've always wanted to be the chief test pilot...

...at Guinness! :wink: Do you think I have a chance?

Seasons Greetings

Wenslascrit


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## ByronBlack (29 Dec 2006)

Thought i'd update this mini-adventure.

Its been a crazy xmas for me so far. Basically, I've managed to find a new job. It's a lot more money than my current role, with a company vehicle and fuel-card and i'll be my own-boss managing an optical lab for a group of independant opticians!

So, it's in the same industry that I was trying to get out of, BUT the role is so different and varied that it feels like an entirely different beast altogether.

So, I wanted to wish you all a merry new year celebrations, and thanks for all the advice and information that you all kindly contributed to this thread 

The best thing about the job, other than providing me with funds to equip and finish the workshop, is the excellent hours that comes with it, which means more time in the workshop working on actual projects, and it also gives me time to study for an open university degree which is what i've been wanting to do for a while


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## promhandicam (29 Dec 2006)

Congratulations BB and all the best for 2007. I hope that the new job works out for you and that you get to do the things you want to be doing.

Steve


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## Anonymous (30 Dec 2006)

So who the hell was that bloke who came into the workshop last week and bullied me into giving him a month's trial? :lol: 

Seriously though Byron, best of luck in your new job. Oh, and go easy on the fuel-card for the first couple of months at least!

Have a great new year

Duncan


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## Paul Chapman (30 Dec 2006)

That's good news, BB. Good luck with it.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## gwaithcoed (30 Dec 2006)

Brilliant BB.All the best in your new job.

Alan.


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## RogerM (30 Dec 2006)

Well done BB. It's usually the case that your best earning potential is doing what you are trained to do. It is always a risk going for a complete change - not just for you but for your new employer as well! It would appear that you will be making use of your experience and training whilst having the benefits of a complete change. Result!


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## Newbie_Neil (30 Dec 2006)

Good luck BB.

All the best,
Neil


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## Colin C (30 Dec 2006)

All the best BB with the new job


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## Shivers (30 Dec 2006)

After 23 yrs in various aspects of woodworking/cabinetmaking,i wish i had been able to continue at industrial design school,i initially had the chance--but it would have been a 6 yr course & i just couldn't go a further 6 yrs with next to no money,i love woodworking as a trade,but find its now a severely undervalued craft(not all members of public understand quality),everybody wants quick shoddy work,& small cabinet shops cannot afford to pay good wages. 

I'm now having a complete rethink as towards the future(being46yrs),i'm considering working with animals/wildlife ect, in my region average cabinet shop wages are £9 per hr,whereas working as a lidl's cashier pays £7.50 per hr.---I've spent thousands of pounds on machinery & tools in the past yrs,had project management experience,bidding estimating exper,own shop for 9 yrs,foreman,supervisor.Non of this helps when the commercial end product is shabby, my woodworking career has just become my hobby,LOL. 



regards.


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## RATWOOD (30 Dec 2006)

Good luck with the new job BB


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## Good Surname or what ? (30 Dec 2006)

BB,

Glad to hear of the new opportunity. Best of luck for 2007.

Phil


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## Shadowfax (30 Dec 2006)

I am really pleased to hear that, Byron. Best wishes for the future and I hope the new job works out the way you expect. It sounds like a good move to me.
Cheers.

SF


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## Shultzy (30 Dec 2006)

Best of luck BB, and I'm glad that your new job will allow you more time in the workshop.


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## Anonymous (31 Dec 2006)

Shivers":njkxdtlv said:


> After 23 yrs in various aspects of woodworking/cabinetmaking,i wish i had been able to continue at industrial design school,i initially had the chance--but it would have been a 6 yr course & i just couldn't go a further 6 yrs with next to no money,i love woodworking as a trade,but find its now a severely undervalued craft(not all members of public understand quality),everybody wants quick shoddy work,& small cabinet shops cannot afford to pay good wages.
> 
> I'm now having a complete rethink as towards the future(being46yrs),i'm considering working with animals/wildlife ect, in my region average cabinet shop wages are £9 per hr,whereas working as a lidl's cashier pays £7.50 per hr.---I've spent thousands of pounds on machinery & tools in the past yrs,had project management experience,bidding estimating exper,own shop for 9 yrs,foreman,supervisor.Non of this helps when the commercial end product is shabby, my woodworking career has just become my hobby.






Welcome to the forum, Shivers.


You will find here a whole bunch of enthusiastic hobbyists interspersed with a few pros. Many of the hobbyists seem to aspire to becoming pros while many of the pros, I am sure, secretly share your jaundiced view of the trade.


I set up as a cabinetmaker 2 years ago after the pine furniture trade, in which I had been involved for many years, finally collapsed. My initial plan was to be commissioned to design and make beautiful heirloom pieces from fine solid hardwoods, and indeed from time to time this is what happens. This is the most satisfying part of my work and when I'm in the middle of one of these jobs I can't wait to get into the workshop in the morning.


I am delighted to say that my order book is currently full until Easter. On looking through my orders, however, I find 2 kitchens, 9 bedrooms, 2 studies, 2 alcove units, a bookcase and half a dozen pine cabinets. With the exception of the pine, every one of these jobs involves a degree of fitting and is to be made from either veneered MDF or painted MDF. I am sure that this is an experience shared by cabinetmakers across the land (and probably the whole western world).


With the influx of cheap but perfectly well made furniture from China and the Far East getting greater every year the professional woodworker's scope for making a good living does not necessarily diminish, but changes. The perceived value in the public's mind of say, a coffee table, is in perpetual decline. A couple of forum members have recently posted lovely examples of coffee tables that they have made as first projects.


Unfortunately, neither of them would sell commercially for much more than about £200. This is no reflection on the skill involved, time spent, quality of materials etc, but simply that the general perception of the value of such a piece among the general public is very low.


The perception of the value of fitted furniture, however, is much higher. The big top-end kitchen and bedroom manufacturers charge sky-high prices... because they can! They are China-proof.


I am trying to make two points.


Firstly, that there is plenty of scope out there for a woodworker to make a good living at his craft. One may just have to stray a little from the course that one would ideally like to follow. At the present time, for most of us, this involves getting involved in building fitted furniture in less glamorous materials.


Secondly, the question of quality. 

I try to take just as much care over an MDF wardrobe as I would over a solid walnut chest of drawers. The quality of workmanship and finish should be identical, in my mind. In my experience, the customer does appreciate this degree of quality - indeed they expect it - and if delivered further business and referrals will follow.


I am sorry that you are disenchanted with your woodworking career, Shivers. Mine is still in its early days, and despite having a full order book and no real debt, I am not yet earning a proper living out of it. Without my wife's salary we'd be sunk! I do retain a (niave?) optimism about the future, however!


I too, am 46!

Regards
Duncan

Incidentally, I recently completed a set of solid cherry pieces commissioned by a youngish couple for the living room of their new home. It was exactly the kind of job I had set up in business to do and I quoted what I thought was a very profitable price. 


In truth, I lost money on it. I spent 3 weeks on a job worth £3000 and involving £700 worth of materials. A £3000 veneered MDF bedroom would have taken a week and made good money!


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## wizer (31 Dec 2006)

very well done BB, not jealous at all... not one bit :wink:


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## ByronBlack (31 Dec 2006)

Thanks to everyone for all their nice messages, much appreciated!

WiZer - didn't mean to rub it in mate, i'm sure if you start looking around you'll find something interesting, this particular job came out of nowhere for me so it shows that there are interesting positions out there, by the way, how's the workshop coming along?


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## Shivers (31 Dec 2006)

*Big dunk wrote 
truth, I lost money on it. I spent 3 weeks on a job worth £3000 and involving £700 worth of materials. A £3000 veneered MDF bedroom would have taken a week and made good money!* 

thanks for the welcome dunk,i've tried 4 jobs since moving back 2 1/2 yrs ago.including 2 kitchen fitting jobs(one on the books /one self employed),both involved doing to me below standard work for companies whom wanted nothing more than to crash in on very expensive kitchens. 

Bottom line --told i was too slow(not sure about this as i was invariably given 40-50 hrs to fit a 12-15 grand kitchen),the allowance is invariably £1500-£1600 fitting,@ 40-50 hrs- me and the lad's expenses would be £1475,but the owner wanted £250 towards his wages(which made absolutely no sense to me as he was permanently in the showroom selling the fitted furniture & to me his wages should have come off sales), 
This gave me a percentage budget of 8-9%,which in my experience works for rough slap it in work but not for high end custom(more like 15%). 

Other jobs inc --remedial man at other fitted furniture co,doing this from car,this ends up doing full installations out of car,again not fast enough(no wonder full installations out of car is impossible). 

Conservatory work(wooden),£8 hr paid everymonth,any overtime month after ie:- takes 2 months to collect overtime pay,jacked this in for obvious reasons. 

Other jobs--cabinet shop,same bullshit,paid per month(overtime month after that)+ overtime is classed as piecework(more pineapples). No bench space,--8 guys shoved in 15 x 30 ft room with table saw in there as well,16 guys total working in 1 space industrial unit(nightmare),got injured(shoulder),told let go because still in trial period,but can still offer me piece work(unbelievably low class boss),jacked in for obvious reasons. 

So yes i'm pretty upset at the state of the trade here,greedy owners,unorganized,no estimating skills,unrealistic targets.I'm fedup with these ramshackle companies. 

As apposed to the states where i was on top money,Overtime is all time/half ,had responsibility,was allowed a good budget for manu/installations.Everywhere i worked i made the company money,even with the projects in the link below. 

http://s64.photobucket.com/albums/h194/eds1000/ 


bit of a rant i know,but after 23 yrs in this trade you'd think i was worth something--or is it i'm picking the wrong companies --i don't know,what i do know is that i've spent thousands on tools over the yrs --to only be offered £9 per hr,whats going on.? 


thanks again for the responce,

happy new year---- shivers.


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