# Newbie itching to get scrolling



## tanyabub (22 Jul 2008)

Hi all

I don't yet have a scroll saw but I recently stumbled across some scroll saw work on the web. My first thought was 'wow that brilliant' my second was ' I gotta find out how to do that'
I'm very much a practical person and I've always been very crafty, in the nicest possible way of course ;o) 
I have been checking out the videos on Youtube, Googling scroll saw info
and of course reading your posts here.
I am still in two minds as to wether to go for a 'cheaper' model just in case it turns out that I can't do it and I'm not wasting too much money or would that be a false economy and maybe I would be more likely to get the hang of it with a more expensive 'better' one like the Axminster which seems to be a favourite round here.
What I would really like to know at the moment is can anyone recommend any books or magazines that might prove a useful read. I'm all for gathering as much info as poss before diving in. WHSmiths didn't seem to have anything relevant and the library wasn't any better.
Many thanks in advance


----------



## big soft moose (22 Jul 2008)

my inclination would be to go for a medium priced one - if you arent sure you want to get into scrolling then spending 300 plus on a hegner or dewalt could be a bad move , but on the other hand the very cheap saws from B+Q etc are a bad investment as they are poorly made and may put you off through their lack of capacity

personally i'd say go for something like this http://www.screwfix.com/prods/98459/Pow ... w-240V-90W scheppach are a decent make and it has the power/capacity to get you started , while if it turns out not to be for you you will only be 80 notes out of pocket (and you'd probably get 50 or so back via ebay)


----------



## Gill (22 Jul 2008)

Hiya

Welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy scrolling when your time comes  .

I don't believe the very cheap scroll saws are a good idea either, but my preference would be a different machine to the one Moose suggests: a SIP 01373, which you could probably find cheaper if you shop around  . I've never seen the Scheppach in use and some people (such as Losos in this thread) seem happy enough with them. Strangely, nobody has ever posted a picture of a project cut successfully on a Scheppach! I have, however, seen the SIP in use and it struck me as being a decent enough saw for the money.

If you want a book to help you build up your skills, John Nelson's 'Scroll Saw Workbook' seems to be the standard introduction on t'other side of the Pond, but I started scrolling before it was published so I'm not familiar with it myself.

Whatever you do, don't rely on any saw blades that are supplied with your new saw - they're invariably poor quality. Instead, get yourself a reputable brand such as those sold by Hobbies of Dereham, Hegner UK, Shesto, or (my preference) Flying Dutchman from the USA.

Gill


----------



## tanyabub (22 Jul 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

My concern was the performance of a cheaper model. I know a bad workman blames his tools and all that, but do you ever get to be a good workman if you don't have quality tools in the first place?
Anyway I shall check out the SIP and Scheppach.
With luck I shall be wading through sawdust in the very near future.
Thanks for the tip about the blades and I shall be off to purchase the book once I finish this post.

Thanks again


----------



## big soft moose (22 Jul 2008)

Gill":1caeau1z said:


> Strangely, nobody has ever posted a picture of a project cut successfully on a Scheppach!
> Gill



I'll have to get a photo bucket account set up then gill  - tho to be honest i bought it because it was easier to whack it onto a screwfix order than shop arround. 

Its a decent bit of kit for what i do (making clocks out of mdf - cutting out love spoon blanks in thin ash/oak) - ive no idea how it would perform for the more complex stuff like you do because ive never tried ...


----------



## Gill (22 Jul 2008)

I don't regard the stuff I cut as being complicated (although, I don't seem to be cutting _any _stuff lately  ); I only ever try projects which are well within the capabilities of any other scroller, including novices. Honestly!

So come on, Mr Moose, get that Photobucket account set up. I can't wait to see what your clocks look like and I'm curious to find out where your scroll saw adventures take you. Be daring! Try something you believe to be difficult - it's probably much easier than you think  .

Gill


----------



## Anonymous (23 Jul 2008)

Hi tanyabub....

You've already been given some good advice but before you buy, have a look as what I consider to be possibly the best value budget saw around at the moment.
This new Rexon VS4003A model has features only normally found on more expensive models which makes it very tempting for a newcomer.
Quick blade changing top clamp as standard plus top-mounted controls are fast becoming the 'norm' and this is one machine that is up to date with those features.

http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;j...ncharset=UTF-8&fh_search=rexon+scroll&x=0&y=0


----------



## Gill (23 Jul 2008)

Oooh... a new saw  ! I didn't know about that one.

The old Rexons used to be prone to vibration but they didn't have the cast iron table which the new model boasts. I like the layout of the controls and the way the upper arm moves (reminiscent of the DW788, eh  ) and it looks as if it can be top-fed too - blade changing should be pretty nifty.

I'd love to hear from anyone who's actually tried one of these machines - they look good.

Gill


----------



## Anonymous (23 Jul 2008)

Gill":idx9udxd said:


> I like the layout of the controls and the way the upper arm moves (reminiscent of the DW788, eh
> 
> Gill



Hi Gill,
Just so members don't get confused........The arms are the normal parallel single pivot type and NOT the double parallel link design of the DeWalt which has pivot points at the front of the saw.

I can see why you got confused as the contoured casing makes it look like the arms are pivoted further forward than they actually are.

One thing I forgot to mention which is not in the spec is the motor. 
Have a look at the pic again and you won't see one !
This machine has the in-line internal type of motor fitted.

Here's a schematic showing the arm type and motor :


----------



## Gill (23 Jul 2008)

Thanks for clearing that up, Alan.



Gill


----------



## tanyabub (23 Jul 2008)

I think I have everything else under control but there's a major part of the equation I'm still pondering over......wood.
What would you recommend I start with I have read that some people use MDF to begin with I suppose it could be useful to practice with but I would rather have an end product that actually looked like wood. 
My intension is to eventually make silhouette type pictures and possibly dabble with the odd puzzle or two. Although I may get taken in another direction entirely, who knows.
Secondly where to you source your wood supplies, I'm assuming it's not B&Q ;o)

Many thanks in advance


----------



## Gill (23 Jul 2008)

I looked for a supplier near you on this list, but Bournemouth seems to be in a woodworking desert  . Perhaps a trip up to Yandles in Somerset might be a good idea eventually, but to get going I would practice with some scrappy plywood from a DIY shed. Good quality plywood is expensive.

Looking at Yell.com I found this timber yard:

Built in DIY
936, Wimborne Rd,
Bournemouth,
Dorset
BH9 2DH

Tel: 01202 516225

Which says it sells 'Timber & Board Off-Cuts'. Might be worth checking out.

There's also Timbersource which looks much more appealing.

You might like to ask this question over on the 'General Woodworking' board. We have quite a few members who live near you and they might be able to give you the benefit of their local knowledge.

Gill


----------



## big soft moose (23 Jul 2008)

S&L hardwood also do offcut bags / pallets. I think their site is www.slhardwoods.co.uk but it might be .com 

as per your question - MDF has nasty dust so if you do use it either wear a decent face mask or use a good dust extractor or both. (to a certain extent this is true of any wood but mdf is particularly carcinogenic)

I'd recomend something like 5mm lime for the sort of thing you want to do - but practice on scrap ply or hardboard first like gill says.


----------



## Gill (23 Jul 2008)

big soft moose":3qqzeyip said:


> ... mdf is particularly carcinogenic..



You've hit a raw nerve with me here! MDF is no more carcinogenic than any other hardwood - that's just an urban myth spread about by 'traditionalists' when it was first manufactured. If you don't believe me, check out the Health & Safety Executive's website and read their detailed online assessment. I've been using MDF for years and it's great for segmentation projects although it's not so good for shadow portraits which require strong connecting bridges.

The best material for shadow portraits is undoubtedly plywood, because the cross-layered veneers offer strength no matter what the direction of cut. Any solid wood will always be weakened by fine connecting bridges which are cut across the grain. Moreover, it will offer inconsistent variations of end grain to the air, making uneven moisture absorption a problem, leading to warping. I agree that lime is probably the most forgiving wood in this respect and I've enjoyed success using thick boards of sycamore too, but there's really nothing as stable as plywood. As a matter of interest, plywood was originally designed as a material for fretwork.

I bought a bag of off-cuts from SL Hardwoods a few years ago and it was good value for my husband who has a lathe. Sadly, they were too blocky (my spell checker says there isn't such a word, but I know there is  ) to be suitable for any type of scrolling other than compound cuts. And His Lordship snaffled them first anyway :lol:.

Gill


----------



## tanyabub (23 Jul 2008)

Please no fisticuffs on my account ;o)
I did consider ply but thought it might split and tear, but then what do I know.
I know of the shop in Bournemouth you mentioned, Gill, I will check it out. As far as I know it's the only Timber shop in the area now since the only other one just closed down. I have also posted on General woodworking as you suggested, so I could find out that there is an Aladins cave full of timber right under my nose that i just don't know about yet. 

Thanks for all the great advise


----------



## pren (23 Jul 2008)

Hi all.

Having bought my very first scroll saw a few weeks ago from B&Q, I'd have to stand in their corner as regards entry level machines. 

I've never used a scroll saw before now so I can't compare mine to the higher-end ones, but I find it to be really easy to use and well made.

I did start using mine with the guard and the foot in place, but i found this to be quite a PITA, so i stripped them off. (Not saying that this is a wise or safe move, but it's what i've found helpful :wink: )

Mine is a MacAllister 120w (IIRC). Picked it up in their clearance sale for £45. So far, I've been practicing with ply and soft woods up to 25mm on the low to medium speed setting with no problems. B&Q's 4mm ply or MDF is a fairly good place to start with for practicing. Around £5 for a 1220mm x 606mm sheet. Beware of voids in the ply, tho. 

If you've got the money to spend on the higher-end machines - do so by all means. However, If you're on a short budget or you're not willing to splash out big money right away - I'd totally reccomend the MacAllister.

Hope that helps give a different perspective.  

Cheers,
Bryn


----------



## Gill (24 Jul 2008)

You won't hear me arguing against you, Bryn  . I started out with a Spiralux (which barely even counts as a scroll saw :lol: ) but I used it to make lots of pieces I was happy with. These earrings cut with a Spiralux have to be some of my first ever projects; I even sold them!



















Sorry for the rotten photos - my camera can't cope with titchy items.

Until recently, Bruce was cutting his puzzle boxes on an entry level Ferm and getting some lovely results. There's definitely a place for these machines, especially if you're on a budget or just 'testing the water'. Nevertheless, I've seen an awful lot of posts from people who say, "I've got a Chiwanese saw and it's great" and are never heard from again. All I can do is presume they no longer scroll. Certainly, whenever you go to demonstrations or pro workshop, the scrollers use top end machines such as Hegners or Diamonds. If it's possible to get a saw which other active scrollers use, I think you're much more likely to succeed and that's why I usually suggest saws which are used by scrollers who I know have lasted the course.

I'm glad you're getting satisfaction out of your MacAllister, and bravo for speaking out on its behalf =D> . The more comments we get about different types of saws, the better we are placed to decide what may suit us.

Gill


----------



## big soft moose (24 Jul 2008)

Gill":20ykh7cv said:


> You've hit a raw nerve with me here! MDF is no more carcinogenic than any other hardwood



we're going to have to agree to disagree here gill (kind of) yes its no more carcinogenic than some hardwoods but this doesnt mean its safe as many hardwoods are extremly nasty (notably yew which nearly killed me one - long story) while oak dust is implicated in nasal cancers

in the case of mdf its technically not the wood but the glue used in its manufacture which has a high formaldehyde content - this is not a problem with the wood per se no one is going to get cancer from living with mdf furniture (though it isnt reccomended for babies and may be implicated in cot death - i digress) but the dust is a different issue.

MDF also machines to a finer dust which stays in the air longer and is harder to clean up than hardwood. - that said i use it all the time , im not saying dont , i'm saying be careful and use good dust extraction - which is sound advice for any timber.

another digression - anyone who is worried about emmisions from mdf, chipboard or any other formadehyde source in their homes - get a peace lily , they scavenge formaldehyde and similar chemicals from the air and sequester them in their growth. and they are quite pretty too.


----------



## big soft moose (24 Jul 2008)

Gill":3d3dmna5 said:


> You won't hear me arguing against you, Bryn  . I
> I'm glad you're getting satisfaction out of your MacAllister, and bravo for speaking out on its behalf =D> . The more comments we get about different types of saws, the better we are placed to decide what may suit us.



My first saw was a B+Q as well - technically performance power rather than macallister but to all intents its the same thing with a different lable/paintjob.

and yep for dipping the toe in the water its not a bad bit of kit - the only problem is longlevity - mine did about 6 months hard service before it karked it - I got another one and it lasted 9. I then had a few years away from scrolling but came back to it recently with a scheppach - so far its about a year old and going fine. (IME the cheap saws engines dont like the dust - a particular problem if it shares a workshop with the lathe  )

the thing is that spend 45 notes on a chiawanese saw once fine, do it twice and you could have had a scheppach/rexxon with the money , do it three times and an axxy would have been yours , four or five times takes you towards a hegner etc

IMO if you really just want to have a go find someone in your locality who has one and try it out - or hire one - or take an evening class, but when you decide to buy its worth spending the dosher on decent kit if you can possible afford it. Of course if money is a real problem any saw (even a fiver from a car boot) is better than none.


----------



## tanyabub (25 Jul 2008)

OK folks.......
I now have an Axminster AWFS18 sitting prettily in my garage )
I can do the smiley today, yesterday would have been a different matter, tempers were a little frayed.
Now I have read a lot of instruction manuals in my time but I think this one would have to take the prize for the most garbled load of taiwanglish nonsense I have ever seen. 
Mostly it was no help what so ever so setting up was mostly trial and error especially when it came to blade removal/changing. Fortunately I have been doing a bit of research beforehand so I had some small grasp of what I should eventually end up with.
As you may recall yesterday was a tad warm and that wasn't helping.
We got a stand too which is OK, a good height and once modified with a hefty bag of cement on the bottom shelf it's fine.
I can't say I have produced a masterpiece since yesterday afternoon, mainly because all I had 'suitable' was a bit of hardboard.....well I had to cut something and did manage a little bunny shape )
I have since got a bit of ply from B&Q so I can practice on that and hope to produce some very pretty fire wood this afternoon.
If anything vaguely presentable manages to appear I shall let you know.
Bye for now


----------



## Gill (25 Jul 2008)

I hope you're enjoying yourself, Tanya  .

As you might have detected from other recent threads, most AWFS/Hegner users find that replacing the top clamp with a Hegner 'Quick Release Clamp' helps to speed up blade changing. They're available from HegnerUK and aren't too pricey.

Keep your first few projects - they'll be handy benchmarks to measure the standard of your work as you progress, no matter how you might feel about showing them other people.

Gill


----------



## tanyabub (25 Jul 2008)

Guess what? They're already on order 
Thinking I might get a foot pedal at some point too, as i am very used to operating a sewing machine it seems to be the obvious way to go. 
Still waiting for my books to arrive so a bit stuck for an easy project to do.
Been checking out the hoard of cross stitch books I have for some inspiration. I have already made a pattern for a shadow picture of my dog but I think that'll be a bit too ambitious to start with..he's very hairy, too many fine lines and sharp corners.....maybe I'll try and make a simplified version.
Gotta go can hear Scrolley calling.


----------



## The Weegie (26 Jul 2008)

Alan- AKA The Woodman":1toyt7sr said:


> Hi tanyabub....
> 
> You've already been given some good advice but before you buy, have a look as what I consider to be possibly the best value budget saw around at the moment.
> This new Rexon VS4003A model has features only normally found on more expensive models which makes it very tempting for a newcomer.
> ...




You have thrown a spanner in the works AKA The woodman :?  I was all set to purchase the Sip Scroll saw from Toolstation. Now I have noticed the rexon :? :? Im totally lost as to which one to purchase. Is there a big difference or should I just toss a coin. Cheers


----------



## Gill (26 Jul 2008)

Be daring - buy the Rexon and tell us what it's like!

:tool:

Gill


----------



## hawkinob (26 Jul 2008)

Hello,
I believe your Axminster is a Hegner clone?? If so then a Hegner Manual might help. One can be downloaded from:-

http://www.advmachinery.com/manuals/H-manual.pdf

or just Google Hegner Manual.

Hope it helps,
Bob H.

p.s. Here in Oz we have at least three Hegner lookalikes - at least three different names - probably from the same factory in Taiwan! All appeared within the last 18 months to 2 years.


----------



## The Weegie (26 Jul 2008)

Gill":1ds64fni said:


> Be daring - buy the Rexon and tell us what it's like!
> 
> :tool:
> 
> Gill




Thanks for the advice. :tool:


----------



## tanyabub (26 Jul 2008)

Thanks for the link Bob, a manual in proper English like what I talk, and it's got useful things you might like to know about your new machine in it very unlike the one I had. Thanks again
The Axminster is near as damn it identical in outward appearance to the Hegner, how its internal gubbins compare I wouldn't know. I am a girl after all ;O
We did consider the Rexon too but I think it was a fair bit lighter so that was why we went with the Axminster.
My Hegner clamp came today and it's much easier to use than the horrid hex key thingy.
I have now completed 3 pictures 
Two free patterns I got from the internet...Elvis coz it look easy to start with then I got a bit more adventurous and tried a Marilyn as you do.
Today I went really mad and did my own design of my dog Wilf. Unfortunately I had a bit of trouble with him and he lost some of the ends off his 'spikey' hair. I think with practice I'll get better at sharp points.
I'd let you see them if you would be interested but I'm not sure how to post pictures.
Anyway thanks everyone for all your help


----------



## Gill (26 Jul 2008)

I'm sure there are quite a few tutorials around here which tell you how to post pictures, but the only one I can find is this one. I hope it helps.

Cutting tight corners takes practise, but it's not too difficult. I suggest you try a few simple patterns to start with, making sweeping cuts. Take care not to over-correct if you stray from the pattern line; that's a common mistake amongst beginners. Once you've got the hang of following lines properly, it'll be time for you to find out how to 'back off' into _really _tight turns   .

How are you managing with designing your own patterns? That's quite a skill in its own right.

Gill


----------



## tanyabub (26 Jul 2008)

Thanks for the link Gill. If I've done it right there should be a pic at the bottom.
I'm finding it all runs away from me sometimes and I can't turn the piece quick enough so don't get a sharp point. The main problem with this one though was more with knocking the points off while cutting rather than not being able to cut them. Maybe it's a combination of the B&Q ply and my inexperience, I'll invest in some better wood when I've practiced a bit more.
Designing the patterns is the easier bit for me, I'm more confident of producing something presentable with a graphics programme than I am with a scroll saw...for now at any rate.


----------



## DaveL (26 Jul 2008)

Well I like that, he looks like a shaggy dog to me.


----------



## tanyabub (26 Jul 2008)

OK so I've sussed it now ) Sorry it's a bit big, I'll try and work out how to make it smaller if I ever post another one


----------



## Gill (26 Jul 2008)

The DIY quality plywood can't conceal your innate talent  .

Well done!

Gill


----------



## Anonymous (26 Jul 2008)

Yes, well done tanyabub. That's a brilliant result for a newcomer to scrolling !





Please don't worry about your pictures being too big as a lot of pics that get posted are too small to see any detail.
Your Olympus camera has taken a good pic and it's a good all round photo.


----------



## hawkinob (27 Jul 2008)

Hello,
I would rather cut than try pattern making, especially I guess because I'm inpatient with the mouse control; don't, or won't, understand the programme and no doubt other things and also because I can get the patterns done by very obliging people for FREE (and from my pictures) via the internet.
Try :-

http://groups.msn.com/AbsolutelyFreeScr ... nhelp.msnw

Even if you are keen to develope your own skills at pattern making it might be an idea to get other people's efforts to compare!

By the way this same site has a Help part. Lots of assistance!

Have you tried spiral blades with 'portrait' cutting'? 2/0 size seems to be popular.

Regards,
Bob H.

p.s. I started off making my own picture frames but for A$10 can buy 11" x 14", and I'd still rather cut!


----------



## tanyabub (27 Jul 2008)

Thank you all for your kind comments. 
I am rather pleased with it for a 3rd ever piece, but obviously I still have plenty to learn.
I use a graphics tablet and pen for designing which is much easier to draw with than a mouse. 

I already design cross stitch 'patterns' and draw so that bit of the process is more familiar to me.

I do have some pattern books on order but I couldn't wait and so far I have mainly found Americanalia or bible verses on the net neither of which is my thing. I will check out the link though, thanks. 

I did get some spiral blades I haven't tried them yet, after I ordered them I read that they tend not to cut very cleanly and then I thought I'm just gonna confuse myself with the direction I'm feeding the wood. So I might wait till I get the hang of ordinary ones first

Also I think I'll stick to buying frames for now....one thing at a time eh :wink:


----------



## hawkinob (27 Jul 2008)

I am not an advocat for spiral blades other than in two instances but I do know of two scrollers who use only spirals. These two people cut mainly clocks both insert type and the geared type and the results are very good. They use mainly 2/0s which are very fine (for spirals). Besides the clocks, which for the insert type are fretwork, they are fans of John Nelson's patterns which again have a lot of fretwork. I notice that many scrollers say that the use of spirals is "not quite the done thing" but if they get the job done, and much that is done with them is hard to spot that the work was done using spirals, where's the harm?
As I say I use spirals for portraits and to trim off 'tab and slot' work.
My tuppence worth!
Regards, Bob H.


----------

