# Moving away from waterstones



## Karl (14 Apr 2008)

Hi all

For the last few years I have been using waterstones for my sharpening - 800 & 6000 grit. The primary grind is done on a cheap grinder, which gives good results.

I am getting somewhat fed up with the mess and constant flattening required on the stones, and was considering switching to another method. DMT stones seem the most obvious choice, but which ones? And what about a polishing stone? The 10k grit Spyderco ceramic one seems a popular choice.

Ideally I would like to stick to two stones, but i'm not sure that moving from a coarse DMT to the Spyderco would give a satisfactory finish.

Any other suggestions?

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Anonymous (14 Apr 2008)

Karl

i am writing up a little review of a new (to me) sharpening medium and will be posting it tonight - see what you think


----------



## gidon (14 Apr 2008)

Karl
Diamond stones for me - realised a while ago waterstones just too messy for me, especially as I have no running water in my workshop.
If you want just two stones I would recommend a Duosharp red / green (fine / extra fine) and one of the new 8000 grit DMT Diasharps. I go from the grinder to the red DMT (600 grit), then the green (1200 grit) and now finish on the 8000 grit (if you use the Veritas Mk II guide that's 12 o'clock 600 grit, 3 o'clock 1200 grit, 6 o'clock 8000 grit). Takes less than a minute. I'm not 100% sure on the 8000 grit at the moment - not had much of a chance to play with it, but will try and do a mini review soon. I was hoping it would be a last step 99% of the time, but at the moment it doesn't seem to be - for the ultimate edge it still need stropping. But these DMT stones do start off much coarser than spec'ed until they get used a bit so time will tell. 
A cheaper alternative would just be the red / green Duosharp and some leather attached to something flat with some honing soap, or look at my video using microfilm paper laid on the green stone. (Yet another alternative is some diamond paste on maple - gives an amazing edge but I find it a faff.)
A final note is if you get to buy the stones on any trips to the US they are so much cheaper!!
Cheers
Gidon


----------



## paulm (14 Apr 2008)

Talking of honing soap, I have a pale blue small bar that I got from Mick Hudson of Clifton or somewhere a couple of years ago, but it is nearly impossible to get any visible amount of it on my leather strop as the soap seems so hard.

Chatting to Mick at Yandles he said to shave a bit off the outside surface as it can harden and then the softer stuff inside is easy to use, but I tried that at the weekend without any great success.

Also got a bar of green stuff from Matthew at Workshop Heaven but again it's rock hard and refuses to transfer onto the strop.

Am I doing something wrong or are these intended for felt wheels and similar on grinders rather than leather bench strops ?

Cheers, Paul.


----------



## Karl (14 Apr 2008)

Tony - sounds interesting......

Chisel - have you tried rubbing the soap onto a scrap of MDF rather than leather? I have a white polishing soap from Axminster that I use for final honing/stropping, and it gives a good final polish when used on MDF.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## paulm (14 Apr 2008)

Thanks for the suggestion Karl and apologies for hijacking your thread !

To be honest both types of soap are so hard that I would doubt I could get any transfer onto anything other than sandpaper or similar !

Does this stuff go off, or do I need to more aggressive perhaps in getting back to the softer part (if there is any soft part !) ?

Cheers, Paul.


----------



## woodbloke (14 Apr 2008)

I switched away from waterstones severial years ago for much the same reason and now use DMT stones. If you want to use just two stones (provided that you can grind the primary bevel some other way...Tormek) then the only DMT that's needed IMO is the green extra-fine (so called). The final edge can be achieved by stropping (with whatever proprietary soap takes your fancy, mixed with a little vaseline to aid slidiness on the leather) _or_ by using a much finer stone to make a micro-bevel at 35deg. I use the 10000g Spyderco which is fantasic and which also allows me to use the 'ruler trick' on the back face.
Just as a matter of interest, the bevels I now use are 23deg off the Tormek, 33deg off the DMT and 35 deg from the Spyderco for BD A2steel blades and chisels (no ruler trick) The geometry for BU blades is worked out similarly so that the final micro-bevel finishes at 50deg, thus it's honed at 38deg which takes account of the 12deg bed angle on the plane - Rob


----------



## Anonymous (14 Apr 2008)

chisel":12sxsck0 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion Karl and apologies for hijacking your thread !
> 
> To be honest both types of soap are so hard that I would doubt I could get any transfer onto anything other than sandpaper or similar !
> 
> ...


Paul

I have used this soap on a piece of leather on MDF for quite a few months now, and it leaves a very fine layer, but enough to strop very nicely. You do have to press hard, but it does work


----------



## Paul Chapman (14 Apr 2008)

Hi Karl,

I use three DMT stones with WD40 or 3-in-1 (I found water very messy) 







I only have a high speed grinder which I don't like using, so I use the blue stone for any "grinding" then the red and green for honing. Finish on a strop with jewellers rouge and Vaseline






Rob (Woodbloke) showed me his latest method on Saturday, using a fine Spyderco ceramic stone and that looks equally as good as a strop (but more expensive :shock: )

Chisel, don't know why you are having so much trouble with your honing compound. I have some of Mike Hudson's blue stuff as well as the jewellers rouge (they work about the same but the jewellers rouge is supposed to be finer - and the colour matches the leather  ) and have no trouble just wiping it on the leather (you can see the stripes in the picture above). Maybe scrape a bit off the surface as Mike suggested, or just give it a bit more wellie 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Karl (14 Apr 2008)

Hi Paul - so what grade are those stones? Blue - coarse, red - fine, green - extra fine???

I don't mind doing the initial grinding on the grinder - intend to get one of those cool running blue wheels which Philly reviewed. So I really need stones to do the 33 & 35 deg honing described in Rob's post above.

Rob - did I understand your post correctly in that you would only use the green stone (ie extra fine) to do all the honing (with the stropping done on Spyderco/soap)? 

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Philipp (14 Apr 2008)

I use waterstones, too, but dislike them a bit as to the same reasons: they need flattening and flattening is a mess.

So I use different grinding and polishing powders (alumina) on flat and polished tiles and/or "granite" plates.

Works well at almost no cost plus I can press the plane iron much harder on the tile/granite in order to round the edges than I could do this on a waterstone that quickly would become damaged - and thus would need flattening...

Last polish on leather attached to a piece of wood, using either very fine grained alumina or chrome oxide.

I surely will use my waterstone for some tasks also in the future, but new investments in them are rather unlikely.

Regards

Philipp


----------



## Paul Chapman (14 Apr 2008)

karl":ut7padgi said:


> Hi Paul - so what grade are those stones? Blue - coarse, red - fine, green - extra fine???



Yes, Karl, exactly right. Not using my grinder, I sometimes wish I'd bought the black, extra coarse stone rather than the blue - but I'm also probably going to buy one of those blue, cool-running wheels, so maybe I'll start using the grinder a bit more.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## tnimble (14 Apr 2008)

I prefer my waterstones (norton), flattening is not that of a hassle (they don't go out of flat that much). I keep them in their little blue containers filled with a bit of water. Most of the slurry flows over the edge of the stone in to the blue container and the rest is swiped off easily.

I dislike my diamond stones (Ezelap) for ordinary blade sharpening. With water their are messy too, and lack a little container so the mess goes all on the bench. Also you risk rust on the carrier plate. With WD40 the grit glazes over after a while when not cleaning them after use or while continuously using them for longer durations. I find using light oils which do not evaporate fast like Turpentine (not to be confused with mineral turpentine substitute) better altough for quick jobs denatured alcohol works best.


As for the 'soap', I suspect the blocks the same as polishing compound bars / jewellers ruge bar. The colour of the bar depends on the abrasive particles. The barss are composed of particles in a wax. Depending on storage temperature they either are hard but the friction caused a little of the wax to melt or they are just to cold for that to happen. The finer grits such as blue and green have a harder wax type that needs a higher temperature.. Either store them warmer, pre-heat them or move them faster over the MDF or leather.


----------



## andy king (14 Apr 2008)

I use waterstones to buy books from! :wink: :lol: 
No seriously, I use a double sided Trend diamond stone (continuous diamonds on a thick steel plate) and its brilliant. I also have a piece of leather on a board for stropping, either the blue stick from DMT or the Veritas green, whatever is to hand.
I was pretty impressed by the ultra fine ceramic from Spyderco recently though, so its likely that I will be doing some polishing on that as well.

cheers,
Andy


----------



## Chris Knight (14 Apr 2008)

I like the Trend stone Andy recommends too. 

As far as the honing soaps go that have been mentioned, most of these are designed for use with polishing wheels which generate enough frictional heat to melt the wax binder and transfer it to the wheel. For a strop, a compound that is easier to apply can be made up using eg tallow or suet and jeweller's rouge.


----------



## gidon (14 Apr 2008)

Chris - probably being thick here but how do you make this compound - melt them together - the suet and soap bar?
My blue stick from Clifton is harder than I'd like it too.
Cheers
Gidon


----------



## Pekka Huhta (14 Apr 2008)

Does anyone use oilstones anymore? 

I have tried waterstones and disliked them. I use only old tools and I really hate getting rust spots everywhere, so I don't like to mess with water in my workshop. But I used waterstones about 5 years without never starting to like them, so there has to be something in it :wink:

I have one DMT diamond stone, but I very rarely use it. A very coarse stone could be nice to have, but I don't seem to have any more passion towards diamonds than I have for waterstones. 

I have 3 oilstones on active use: coarse Carborundum, unidentified natural stone as medium/fine and white hard Arkansas as the normal fine stone. If I have to go any further than my usual stones, a friend of mine made a man-made stone for me (seemed to be quite a secret what he did put in there :?) with less than 1 µm grit size. And then there's the leather strop, one side smeared with ultra fine polishing grit and the other just natural. 's simple as that. 

Pekka


----------



## ike (14 Apr 2008)

I switched from waterstones for the same reason - too much faff. I liked the idea of continuous diamond plates. Couldn't stretch to the DMC/Trend offerings so went for the Ezelaps - Fine and Superfine (8" x 3"). They come in tough hide pouches so I can chuck them in the travelling toolbag with everything else. Very pleased with the sharpening results. (Primary bevels fast'n'easy c/o a JET wet grinder).

Ike


----------



## ivan (14 Apr 2008)

Bars of compound do dry out and become difficult to transfer even to a high speed wheel.

Because they're wax based, you can use 'er indoors grater on them and dissolve the flakes in white spirit to make a soft paste, or even liquid.

Depending on the surface of your strop, a light coating of oil or white spirit (on the strop) may help get some off your hard bar; once first coated, sucessive recharging becomes easier.


----------



## Jake (14 Apr 2008)

ivan":376vboh2 said:


> Because they're wax based, you can use 'er indoors grater on them



Easily justified as 'sharpening your grater for you", I guess.


----------



## Chris Knight (14 Apr 2008)

Gidon,

Yes, just melt and stir.


----------



## Escudo (14 Apr 2008)

I also found transferring some of the blue compound to my strop got me in a strop.

It was so hard and such an effort, it really hurt. The tip with the vaseline saved the day and now it just slips in (sorry on). :wink: 

I use norton oil stones with the arkansas final stone for sharpening and I thought I was getting a very sharp blade, but not quite as sharp as the planes I saw and used at Yandles. I suspect this is more to do with my technique than the equipment.

Tony.


----------



## Digit (14 Apr 2008)

For those who don't like sloshing water or oil about Ez Cut diamond plates are used dry.
Yes indeed PH, I use a genuine, very old, piece of Arkansas stone for finishing. It's been in use for so long that it is impregnated with oil now.

Roy.


----------



## woodbloke (14 Apr 2008)

Karl wrote:


> Rob - did I understand your post correctly in that you would only use the green stone (ie extra fine) to do all the honing (with the stropping done on Spyderco/soap)?



Provided you can obtain the ground bevel, then yes, the extra-fine green DMT is the only one you need to obtain the honed bevel, with the micro-bevel being obtained with either a strop or something like a 10000g Spyderco ceramic.
Fwiw I took two identical, freshly ground (23deg) plane blades over to Pete Newton's a while back and we honed one using the green DMT and strop with jewellers rouge. The other was honed with the same DMT but the micro-bevel was done on Pete's 10000g Spyderco with the ruler trick being used on the reverse. The result of this little experiment was that we both thought that the edge produced from the Spyderco was _significantly_ sharper than using a strop, which is why I now use a ceramic stone rather than the strop. Don't misunderstand, the strop still produced a very, very good edge, it's just that the ceramic stone produced a better one :wink: - Rob


----------



## matthewwh (14 Apr 2008)

Hi Paul,

Sorry, I've only just picked up on this thread. 

Regarding the bars, all the above advice is true; i.e. fine compounds do tend to have a harder wax, they are intended for use on a buffing wheel which generate loads of friction, you can melt them with a bit of vaseline to make a soft stropping compound etc. 

Before you do that though, you might try leaving the bar in a warm place like an airing cupboard for a couple of days. Once the wax has been warmed a little it should be easier to apply. If you ever use it on a buffing wheel it's important to leave the wheel running for a couple of minutes after applying it. This allows the wax to re-harden and it holds the particles better, so you get more use out of it. 

If it still isn't doing the job you wanted it for, just pop it back to me and I'll sort you out with a refund.


----------



## paulm (15 Apr 2008)

Thanks for the advice Matthew, have moved both the soaps closer to the heat source in the workshop to warm them up a bit.

If that doesn't help then think I will try making a paste with them as suggested.

Might be the weekend before I get to try again though, back to the office today after a couple of days hols, so no more playing in the workshop for a few days  :lol: 

Cheers, Paul.


----------



## Karl (18 Apr 2008)

Quick update

I managed to get a Trend double sided stone from e-bay for £47. It's on its way to me as we speak. At that price I couldn't justify spending almost double on a couple of DMT's or the DMT duo.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## shim20 (21 Apr 2008)

i have been using waterstones there ok for people with alot of time on there hands, but for people who havent they are to high mantinace i think. so i will be going back to oilstones i think soon.


----------



## Philly (21 Apr 2008)

Shim
How so? I use waterstones (amongst other methods) and find it strange that Folks think them time consuming or messy. All sharpening methods are messy (hey, we are grinding and polishing away metal) and involve a lubricant of some kind - the flattening procedure for waterstones takes only seconds to do and is well worth it for a: having a flat stone, and b: the speed with which a freshly dressed stone cuts.
I have my sharpening paraphernalia stored on a wooden (shop made) tray - all work is done on this, too.
Regardless of which sharpening medium you use the important thing is to have a repeatable regime which allows you to get the same (hopefully excellent!) result each time you sharpen.
Cheers
Philly  
P.s. Apologies if it seems I'm having a moan at you Shim - I'm not, just passionate about sharp tools :lol:


----------



## paulm (21 Apr 2008)

Left the two bars of honing soap above the oil filled rad in the workshop all last week and no real difference, both still as hard as a rock and therefore effectively useless for stropping. ](*,) 

Undecided whether to grate and dissolve in white spirit, or melt with vaseline as per previous suggestions........ :-k 

Cheers, Paul (the indecisive)


----------



## Paul Chapman (21 Apr 2008)

Hi Paul,

I have several different grades of honing compound (including the Clifton one) which are all kept in my (sometimes very cold) garage workshop. I've just been out there are tried wiping them all on a piece of MDF. Some (the darker ones) were softer than the others but all were perfectly useable







So I can't understand why you are having so much trouble with yours :? 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul

PS The softest one was the jewellers rouge (the maroon one at the bottom of the picture and the stripe on the right of the MDF) which is the one I use on my strop.


----------



## paulm (21 Apr 2008)

Me neither Paul, but seems it's not only me, several others on the thread mentioned the same thing.

Maybe they should be kept in a plastic bag when not in use, and somewhere warm as well, don't know.

I can press them hard enough on the leather to damage/tear that but still leaves no discernible trace !

Not sure I need them now anyway with the Spyderco superfine but it's more a case of being stubborn and trying something else rather than chucking them :shock: :lol: 

Thinking more about it I guess the vaseline and melting might not dry out afterwards as quick as dissolving in white spirit........ :-k 

Thanks for going to the trouble of testing yours, makes me feel worse though rather than better that yours are okay  :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


----------



## gidon (21 Apr 2008)

Chisel my blue Clifton bar is the same. The only thing I've not tried is Chris's suggestion which I will when I get a chance.
But what does work is putting a flame to the end of the bar and then wiping it on the leather! (I use a butane grill lighter).
Think it must just be past its best - I got it a long time ago ...
Cheers
Gidon


----------



## Paul Chapman (22 Apr 2008)

chisel":3a4no0wu said:


> Maybe they should be kept in a plastic bag when not in use, and somewhere warm as well, don't know.



I keep most of mine in the plastic wrapper thingy they came in, but I keep the jewellers rouge in a plastic bag, wrapped up so there's not much air in it, next to my sharpening stuff. The jewellers rouge is definitely softer than the others and, being the finest abrasive, gives a very good finish on the strop. I'm able to wipe it on the strop very easily like this (you can see the stripes where I've wiped it on with virtually no pressure)






Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## paulm (22 Apr 2008)

Had a go at sorting out the green soap bar this evening.

More of a housebrick consitency to be honest, nothing soap or wax like about it ! Wouldn't grate successfully, wouldn't melt even with the blowlamp !

Resorted to bashing it into bits and grinding it down with the end of a bit of timber before mixing in some vaseline. 

Was still a bit of a stiff mix and had run out of vaseline so mixed in some white spirit as well and eventually after a lot of work got a decent paste that was useable and smeared thinly on the strop and greatly relieved that it works very nicely after all that effort.

Suspect the blue Clifton bar will grate or melt much more easily, and might mix in some paraffin oil I have to hand in place of vaseline, but will try that another day when I have recovered from this episode I think !

Wish I had a nice soft bar of jewellers rouge like Paul C and wouldn't have to go to this bother, but you live and learn as always ........ 

Cheers, Paul.


----------



## shim20 (22 Apr 2008)

Philly":1fk9ysc7 said:


> Shim
> How so? I use waterstones (amongst other methods) and find it strange that Folks think them time consuming or messy. All sharpening methods are messy (hey, we are grinding and polishing away metal) and involve a lubricant of some kind - the flattening procedure for waterstones takes only seconds to do and is well worth it for a: having a flat stone, and b: the speed with which a freshly dressed stone cuts.
> I have my sharpening paraphernalia stored on a wooden (shop made) tray - all work is done on this, too.
> Regardless of which sharpening medium you use the important thing is to have a repeatable regime which allows you to get the same (hopefully excellent!) result each time you sharpen.
> ...



yer see what you are saying but when i using them at work they just seem to be hassel all the while flattening them i know its quick but its just no pratical for me at work. with the oilstone if used right will take longer to "hollow" and you can get just the same results going through the diffrent grades. it probally just me :lol:


----------



## Philly (22 Apr 2008)

Fair point - I just find having all the gear set out on a tray its not a big hassle to do.
Cheers
Philly


----------



## shim20 (22 Apr 2008)

maybe im going about it wrong??? as i have a tub with the 800and 1200 stone in in water all the time and the super fine on the side. maybe if i was more organised took some time to make a tray with it all on would not be so bad will give this ago first see if it helps.


----------



## Vormulac (6 May 2008)

andy king":25evk8p3 said:


> I use waterstones to buy books from! :wink: :lol:
> No seriously, I use a double sided Trend diamond stone (continuous diamonds on a thick steel plate) and its brilliant. I also have a piece of leather on a board for stropping, either the blue stick from DMT or the Veritas green, whatever is to hand.
> I was pretty impressed by the ultra fine ceramic from Spyderco recently though, so its likely that I will be doing some polishing on that as well.
> 
> ...



Sorry for digging up an old(ish) thread, I've been away for a couple of months and I'm catching up!
I have been put off changing from waterstones to diamond stones as I bought the Trend double sided diamond stone at the Ally Pally show last year, and within about six weeks of extremely light use one side had shed most of its diamond! An £80 paperweight that made me a little twitchy about shelling out for the same thing from another manufacturer. Am I the only person this has happened to?


----------



## woodbloke (6 May 2008)

V - I use the DMT stones and they loose the initial 'shine' after a few goes (in other words, they cut too fiercely to begin with) so although my extra-fine appears to be a bit bald and smooth, there's plenty there to cut with so if your stone still cuts (but not as well as it was when it was brand spanking) then that's probably how it was intended to be. On the other hand, if it don't cut at all... - Rob


----------



## tnimble (6 May 2008)

The diamonds can get loose from the carrier. This happens most likely when grinding *softer* metals and at high angles. Also be careful when using small width items on the DMT I reckon.


----------



## Paul Chapman (6 May 2008)

I've used my DMT stones for many years without any problems. As Rob says, they start off feeling very rough and cut quite aggressively but quickly settle down. It's possible that they have now lost this initial roughness and that's made you think the diamonds have fallen out.

If the diamonds have fallen out, I'm sure Trend would want to know about it and would replace the stone.

Cheers :wink:

Paul


----------



## Karl (6 May 2008)

Hi Vormulac

I bought the Trend double sided stone. Like Rob says, it cuts too coarsely to start off with, but soon beds in. Mine did so after the first couple of days, but i'd consider myself a heavy user - every day, at least a couple of times a day (sometimes significantly more). So yours is still cutting, then there's nowt up with it. If not, then get onto Trend.

I've had mine for a couple of weeks now and think it's great especially for taking out on site (which was the main reason I wanted to get away from waterstones).

Just need to get a good polishing stone now (for shop use only).

Cheers

Karl


----------



## paulm (6 May 2008)

karl":1nvm8e1s said:


> Hi Vormulac
> Just need to get a good polishing stone now (for shop use only).
> Karl



Can recommend the Spyderco superfine ceramic stone Karl, as mentioned by Newt and Woodbloke etc in other threads.

Gives a great mirror polish and suprisingly quickly. Only thing is to be prepared to spend a half hour or so flattening it with a coarse diamond stone if you're a bit fussy like me :roll: , but once done it doesn't look like it will wear much at all so pretty much a one-off job.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Vormulac (7 May 2008)

I haven't touched that Trend stone in over a year, but I seem to recall it stopped cutting all together, my emails to the company I bought it from at the show went unanswered. I'll dig it out and have another look though.
It's good to see so many of you guys extolling the virtues of DMT stones, perhaps I'll start saving my pennies (this could take a while, the birth of Number 2 son last month has left me somewhat skint!).


----------



## Paul Chapman (7 May 2008)

Vormulac":nee1spn8 said:


> I seem to recall it stopped cutting all together, my emails to the company I bought it from at the show went unanswered.



If it really is that bad and has stopped cutting altogether, why not PM [email protected] who's a member of the forum. The Trend stones should perform as well as the DMTs and I'm sure Trend would do something about it.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Vormulac (8 May 2008)

That's good advice, thanks Paul. I'll certainly dig it out this weekend and have a good thorough look at it.


----------



## lwilliams (13 May 2008)

karl":3uwg1k2d said:


> ...I am getting somewhat fed up with the mess and constant flattening required on the stones, and was considering switching to another method. ...
> Ideally I would like to stick to two stones...
> Any other suggestions?



I used to spend more time flattening my water stones than sharpening and, I too, hated the mess and space required.

I've gone back to oil stones. I use a medium India and a translucent hard Arkansas. Both need to be kept flat and fast cutting by dressing and I use a DMT coarse diamond stone for that. Oil stones don't wear out of flat nearly as quickly as water stones but they do go out of flat. I strop after honing with chromium oxide or a product called 'Yellow Stone."

I also use a coarse India when flattening new tools and it also needs to be kept flat and dressed. You'll find yourself dressing your oil stones more to refresh the cutting surface than to flatten the stone but it makes sharpening a lot easier if your stones have the same flat topography. Oil stones, when kept dressed, cut nearly as quickly as water stones.

I use WD-40 for honing oil because it's convenient and always around. My sharpening area is always set up and ready to go. Just a wipe with a rag is all it takes to clean up after honing. My honing system takes up less than two square feet.

You're not going to end up with a mirror finish because the hard Arkansas is about a 1000 grit stone. I don't think you'll miss polishing a mirror surface but I think you'll enjoy the quick sharp edges you'll be able to get.


----------



## bugbear (14 May 2008)

lwilliams":1tjot34f said:


> You're not going to end up with a mirror finish because the hard Arkansas is about a 1000 grit stone. I don't think you'll miss polishing a mirror surface but I think you'll enjoy the quick sharp edges you'll be able to get.



I'm not sure that's correct; I know that this (famous) table claims it:

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/grits.htm

But it's talking about particle sizes.

Now, cutting action (and effect) is determined by factors in addition to particle size.

Here's speed:

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/speed.htm

I don't know of one for edge quality  

BugBear


----------



## Philly (15 May 2008)

Welcome to the forum, Larry!
Good to have you aboard,
Philly


----------



## lwilliams (16 May 2008)

Thanks, Philly.

Bugbear,

Either that chart showing cutting speeds of different abrasives is wrong or I'm doing something wrong. They show diamonds as being the fastest cutting and I find them among the slowest cutting of abrasives. I've tried pastes on iron, aluminum, and polycarbonate. I've also tried mounted stones and diamond grinding wheels for the oscillating diamond grinder we use in our metal shop. My experience is that aluminum oxide and silicon carbide abrasives of similar grits cut significantly faster.

The technical representative of the company that makes the diamond wheels for our grinder told me electroplated diamond abrasives shouldn't be used on steel. He said the stringy swarf from grinding steel will quickly abrade away the nickel matrix the diamonds are mounted in. These abrasives are intended to be used on materials that produce a granular swarf like stone or carbide. I only use diamond honing stones to maintain my oil stones but never on common tool steels now. 

The only advantage of diamonds I know if is that they'll cut almost anything. I believe their faceted round shape naturally makes them slow cutting.


----------



## tnimble (16 May 2008)

That is exactly my experience *lwilliams*. The only difference why diamond paste do a faster job on flattening 'large' surfaces is they do not wear down as fast as SiC and AlO.

The same seems to be for the rest of the graph also. Water stones are depicted as the seconds fastest. The only difference between AlO abrasive and a waterstone is the backer material. Paper, plastic, linnen versus a ceramic matrrix. The cutting speed of AlO is the same or faster than a waterstone. Again the difference is when the AlO wears down on a waterstone its replaced with fresh AlO particles. With a sand paper tpye abrasive a worn down particle is not replaced.

The same for ceramic stones. Syntactic water stones are ceramic stones. The difference is the hardness and make up of the ceramic.

I use diamond stones (I own two) mainly for flattening my other stones. They are also handy for a real quick touch up when you have no water at hand or for very norrow tools.

DMT diamond stones are diamonds embeded on a nickel plated thin plate of steel. Ezelap stones seems to be the same but this is a bit hard to say for sure.


----------



## bugbear (16 May 2008)

lwilliams":2y8rca8k said:


> The technical representative of the company that makes the diamond wheels for our grinder told me electroplated diamond abrasives shouldn't be used on steel.



That's "interesting" (*)

BugBear

(*) monumental British understatement, obviously!!


----------



## Jake (16 May 2008)

It's a bit of a different application at 3/4000 rpm, surely?


----------



## bugbear (16 May 2008)

Jake":3fkiahhl said:


> It's a bit of a different application at 3/4000 rpm, surely?



Owner of DMT plates will be hoping so - fair comment.

BugBear


----------



## lwilliams (16 May 2008)

Jake":prdw4dwo said:


> It's a bit of a different application at 3/4000 rpm, surely?



Diamond grinders run pretty slow because heat is a real problem with diamonds. They're pure carbon, like coal. If you get them hot, they burn. I don't have the manual for our grinder handy but it runs somewhere around 600 rpm.


----------

