# Table saw safety



## BorisTheBlade (9 Mar 2022)

Recently I posted a thread and during the thread I had quite a lot of people giving strong advice that was well intentioned but actually misinformation and dangerous in itself. I was quoted HSE and told strongly to use 2 push sticks and never have your hand near the zero clearance slot. Admittedly the video in question I was working a scrap piece that was close to being the limit of what I would work on before making adjustments like using a sled, blade guard etc. However, I feel it's important we call this misinformation out as it will cause more harm than the help it's intended to be.

* 2 push sticks/proximity to blade. If you have watched any high end woodworkers or read HSE guidance you will see the position I adopted is exactly that described. 

In the picture taken directly from HSS guidelines you will see a hand positioned slightly behind the 0 clearance and a push stick in the right hand. What I don't like about the picture is the hand isn't fixed firmly to the table like I do, so in the event of kickback/movement, you hand isn't pulled in with the workpiece.

For your own safety but more importantly, the safety of others please don't be giving advice before first educating yourself as this could lead to serious injury. I don't preach safety to others and make mistakes often but comments that littered my thread would lead to those less informed to adopt more dangerous practices.

The takeaway?

DON'T use two push sticks. Don't use a table saw if you don't feel safe with your hand on the saw table 

DO position your hand near the zero clearance, posted to the table to help guide the workpiece. The loss of control is a large factor in injury.

Don't do what I did in the video and reach over a blade  and push the workpiece through with the push stick.

Hope that helps, if you disagree, first look at HSE guidance. Don't shoot the messenger, just wanted to help others avoid injury.


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## Ttrees (9 Mar 2022)

This isn't a bad watch


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## Doug71 (9 Mar 2022)

On the picture from the HSE you have posted can you see where the persons hand is in relation to the blade? The blade is where the fence ends (as it should be), I would estimate that the operators hand is about 450mm away from a properly guarded blade which is fine but I think you are talking about putting your hand much closer to the blade which isn't a good idea.

2 push sticks is the safest way to make a cut once you are getting close to the blade.

The HSE says use 2 push sticks when needed on their poster.




https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf


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## hlvd (9 Mar 2022)

I’m going to give up giving advice about Health and Safety on this forum, hobbyists always seem to know more than the ones in the trade.


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## Ttrees (9 Mar 2022)

hlvd said:


> I’m going to give up giving advice about Health and Safety on this forum, hobbyists always seem to know more than the ones in the trade.


Would be nice if you guys would give an opinion on the overhead guards,
as being a hobbyist myself, difficult to know what makes a good one.
If you needed this, and not one mounted to a riving knife, what's the best one you've ever seen/used or even a just a speculative hunch on what seemingly might look like an outstanding design.

Love to know what your opinions are on the 10 second clip I linked to this morning.

Any takers?

Thanks
Tom


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## Inspector (9 Mar 2022)

Boris The "high end woodworkers" you watch, I'm assuming on Youtube, are they British and European, or are they American?

Pete


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## BorisTheBlade (9 Mar 2022)

Doug71 said:


> On the picture from the HSE you have posted can you see where the persons hand is in relation to the blade? The blade is where the fence ends (as it should be), I would estimate that the operators hand is about 450mm away from a properly guarded blade which is fine but I think you are talking about putting your hand much closer to the blade which isn't a good idea.
> 
> 2 push sticks is the safest way to make a cut once you are getting close to the blade.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that, re: push sticks the quote says to use two 'in certain circumstances' not as a general rule. Maybe there's where confusion came when it was suggested to me.

Hands 450mm from the guard/blade is the edge of the table. Is this something you do for all circumstances or rips in particular? (Genuine question to get more knowledge).



hlvd said:


> I’m going to give up giving advice about Health and Safety on this forum, hobbyists always seem to know more than the ones in the trade.



If you want to educate, I'm happy to hear it but the advice I had was at no point to have your hand on the EDIT *table* near the EDIT zero clearance slot (butter fingers, pun intended) and to use two push sticks. The picture I showed illustrated this clearly from 'the trade'. No need to get upset, I'm just highlighting something that contradicted what I had read/seen and wanted to do it in an open way rather than avoiding it to not upset people. These discussions will help others so it's good to do it in a positive and open manner. I'm all ears to new info and will change my practice based on sound suggestions.


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## BorisTheBlade (9 Mar 2022)

Inspector said:


> Boris The "high end woodworkers" you watch, I'm assuming on Youtube, are they British and European, or are they American?
> 
> Pete


Pete, it was based on Japanese, UK, American, Canadian etc. I've not seen anyone NOT having their hand on the saw bench at one point or another and certainly behind the zero clearance slot.


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## LJM (9 Mar 2022)

BorisTheBlade said:


> Pete, it was based on Japanese, UK, American, Canadian etc. I've not seen anyone NOT having their hand on the saw bench at one point or another and certainly behind the zero clearance slot.



I never have my hands on the table. I was taught by my father, who was taught by a very “highend woodworker” (a significant one) and himself taught many, many people to use the full range of woodworking machinery; the only accidents that occurred in any of his workshops came about because an individual did not follow the rules and methods taught them.

I’ve never had a reason not to use 2 push sticks.


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## RobinBHM (9 Mar 2022)

There are primarily 2 dangers: 

1) getting cut by the saw blade

2) getting injured by a piece being thrown back

both can cause catastrophic injuries 

violent kick backs are operator error and are mitigated by a number of elements:

riving knife
crown guard / overhead guard
position of rip fence
type of material
size of material
lack of consideration for offcuts
poor technique

Its not really push stick versus no push stick -its all of the above together


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## LJM (9 Mar 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> There are primarily 2 dangers:
> 
> 1) getting cut by the saw blade
> 
> ...



Agreed, it’s not one thing several; ignoring just one can lead to an accident


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## Lazurus (9 Mar 2022)

Can some one enlighten me on the correct position of the fence in relation to the blade, most images show the fence going at least to the back of the blade in not further, and yet surely it does no good past the end of the cut?


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## Spectric (9 Mar 2022)

Table saw safety is really not difficult, it is a stationary machine where the only thing moving is the rotating saw blade and it cannot suddenly decide to attack.

There is only one way that the saw can digest any of your digits and that is if YOU decide to offer them up which is no different than putting your hand through the bars of a lions cage. Two push sticks is really just common sense, I would much prefer a shortened push stick than a shorter finger. I would say that my hands never get nearer than 400mm to the blade, never apply excess force to a push stick and really just be alert and as said, hands behind your back if anything goes wrong and not trying to rescue a workpiece or clear behind the blade even with a pushstick.


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## Ozi (9 Mar 2022)

Gents, I'm a very inexperienced table saw user and feel I have had a lot of good advice from people on this forum. Can I ask about where a fence should end. I have had people say in line with the motor spindle so that no part of the rising side of the blade is next to the fence (this on a small cheep saw like mine makes for a very small fence) or at the rear edge of the blade which I don't understand. All the saws in my price range seem to have a fence that goes all the way across the table. At present I have attached a secondary fence to the original that ends just past the blade center. I take it off if cutting very long items which need more support and have been known (this will probably horrify you to stand the other side of the table and pull rather than push on the last part of long cuts.

Tell me what I should be doing, I have no objection to being criticized by those who know what they are talking about.

On that point it would be a great shame if people with knowledge stopped offering it due to seeing poor advice.


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## Sgian Dubh (9 Mar 2022)

hlvd said:


> I’m going to give up giving advice about Health and Safety on this forum, hobbyists always seem to know more than the ones in the trade.


I find that amusing. You've maybe noticed that I seldom get into discussions about using wood machinery safely, and it's because I don't have the patience to get into what can develop into a long and frustrating discussion. Nowadays, I tend to leave the protagonists in such debates to it; they're not my fingers or other fleshy bits, nor are they fleshy bits of people I do have responsibility for in a workshop.

I will, however, *throw this old article* I co-wrote about ripping on the table saw twenty or more years ago and leave it at that. People can make of it whatever they will. Slainte.


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## Kayen (9 Mar 2022)

Lazurus said:


> Can some one enlighten me on the correct position of the fence in relation to the blade, most images show the fence going at least to the back of the blade in not further, and yet surely it does no good past the end of the cut?



A lot depends upon what you're cutting. 

When cutting board materials, the fence extending beyond the back of the blade (and beyond) gives something to run on as the cut is finished - this can help if a perfectly straight cut is required.

When ripping down sawn timber boards in order to plane, the fence can be brought back in line with the cutting teeth. Also, the board should be sighted so any bow is up and the 'round' (as opposed to the hollow) is against the fence. This way the cut tends to open rather than close on to the blade.

Disclaimer: As always there are anomalies and differing circumstances which can change the above, and it's been years since I did my H&S certificate - so that's just my opinion and one that has served me well - though I very rarely use push sticks, sorry not sorry


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## Lazurus (9 Mar 2022)

Great article answered my question above thank you


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## BorisTheBlade (9 Mar 2022)

LJM said:


> I never have my hands on the table. I was taught by my father, who was taught by a very “highend woodworker” (a significant one) and himself taught many, many people to use the full range of woodworking machinery; the only accidents that occurred in any of his workshops came about because an individual did not follow the rules and methods taught them.
> 
> I’ve never had a reason not to use 2 push sticks.



Oh dear, I've been clumsy in my approach, wording and inadvertently caused offence. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Can you elaborate why you use two sticks and never touch the table? I mean if you do as your grandfather did, you presumably wouldn't have a riving knife, dust extraction, crown guard etc... I'm trying to make a distinction between 'because I said so' and a logical explanation. Thanks in advance for your time if you get a chance to reply.


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## BorisTheBlade (9 Mar 2022)

Thanks everyone who has posted, I'm getting free health and safety training and a lively discussion. If anyone has taken offence, take a minute to consider that your advice, input etc could lead to myself or someone else avoiding an accident so it's not wasted time or on deaf ears. I won't stop asking questions and if you get upset about this, maybe ego needs to leave the equation. I'm asking legitimate questions and probing to get answers not a reaction. No trolling here, all positive.


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## BorisTheBlade (9 Mar 2022)

Kayen said:


> though I very rarely use push sticks, sorry not sorry



Haha - that's my wife's favourite quote when using my expensive pliers as a hammer and cutlery as a screwdriver when there are 20 of them in the garage and four in the next room


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## BorisTheBlade (9 Mar 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I find that amusing. You've maybe noticed that I seldom get into discussions about using wood machinery safely, and it's because I don't have the patience to get into what can develop into a long and frustrating discussion. Nowadays, I tend to leave the protagonists in such debates to it; they're not my fingers or other fleshy bits, nor are they fleshy bits of people I do have responsibility for in a workshop.
> 
> I will, however, *throw this old article* I co-wrote about ripping on the table saw twenty or more years ago and leave it at that. People can make of it whatever they will. Slainte.


Thanks for the link, making my way through it - have to say the epic moustache is both glorious and very distracting.


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## LJM (9 Mar 2022)

BorisTheBlade said:


> Oh dear, I've been clumsy in my approach, wording and inadvertently caused offence. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Can you elaborate why you use two sticks and never touch the table? I mean if you do as your grandfather did, you presumably wouldn't have a riving knife, dust extraction, crown guard etc... I'm trying to make a distinction between 'because I said so' and a logical explanation. Thanks in advance for your time if you get a chance to reply.



I wrote of my father, not my grandfather (neither was a woodworker); I, like my father, use both a riving knife and crown guard.

I don’t touch the table, because there is no need to do so, and to do so would brink my hands unnecessarily close to the blade.

Using 2 push sticks means I have no need to bring my hands close to the blade, and that should should something unplanned occur, the sticks are vulnerable, not my digits.


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## RobinBHM (9 Mar 2022)

Ozi said:


> Gents, I'm a very inexperienced table saw user and feel I have had a lot of good advice from people on this forum. Can I ask about where a fence should end. I have had people say in line with the motor spindle so that no part of the rising side of the blade is next to the fence (this on a small cheep saw like mine makes for a very small fence) or at the rear edge of the blade which I don't understand. All the saws in my price range seem to have a fence that goes all the way across the table. At present I have attached a secondary fence to the original that ends just past the blade center. I take it off if cutting very long items which need more support and have been known (this will probably horrify you to stand the other side of the table and pull rather than push on the last part of long cuts.
> 
> Tell me what I should be doing, I have no objection to being criticized by those who know what they are talking about.
> 
> On that point it would be a great shame if people with knowledge stopped offering it due to seeing poor advice.



When ripping solid timber, I recommend this:

set fence (or add on) so it finishes anywhere between the back of the saw tooth gullet and the middle of the spindle - but using such a set up - use a push stick tight against the fence to push through the end of the cut.

By the way if you are cross cutting with a mitre fence and are using the rip fence as a stop - the wood MUST leave the stop before cutting starts.


And one useful point: blade height; sometimes it’s safer to have the blade quite a bit higher than the stock - it creates downward force and avoids the rather scary moment when the work starts to ride over the blade.


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## Doug71 (9 Mar 2022)

@Ozi there is nothing wrong with going around the back of the table saw and pulling through longer lengths, it's the safest place to be! 

It can take a bit of practise getting used to keeping the wood tight against the fence when you are pulling though.


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## Kayen (9 Mar 2022)

BorisTheBlade said:


> Haha - that's my wife's favourite quote when using my expensive pliers as a hammer and cutlery as a screwdriver when there are 20 of them in the garage and four in the next room


Yeah I think I got it from my wife when she uses my 1" Marples chisel to open a paint can


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## Bingy man (9 Mar 2022)

Very interesting discussion and informative but I’m a little confused, I have a dewalt 745 lx portable table saw as my workshop is quite small and also the saw travels to some jobs with me . I’ve been using it for about 2 years now with no accidents but a couple of brown trouser moments . No1 moment was attempting to cut a 8-4 sheet of 18 mm ply on my own-no 2 was attempting to a taper cut freehand , no 3 was ripping a badly twisted piece of timber which then jammed against the fence /blade. No 1 solution was to build an extended frame/ table to support large sheets and get a 2nd person to assist. No 2 was to abandon taper cuts and use circular saw . No 3 ignore twisted/ warped timber . My query is the fence on my saw runs the entire length of the table as designed,,is this ok ? I use a single push stick toward the end of the cut and I also use 3D pushblocks for some cuts . I’ve also on a few occasions removed the riving knife ( to cut larger timber than my saw can cope with by cutting halfway then turning it over for the remainder of the cut . I’m very safety conscious and welcome criticism if anything I’ve said is concerning or outright dangerous. Also are there now circular saws on sale that don’t have the riving knife?? Many thanks


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## BorisTheBlade (9 Mar 2022)

LJM said:


> I wrote of my father, not my grandfather (neither was a woodworker); I, like my father, use both a riving knife and crown guard.
> 
> I don’t touch the table, because there is no need to do so, and to do so would brink my hands unnecessarily close to the blade.
> 
> Using 2 push sticks means I have no need to bring my hands close to the blade, and that should should something unplanned occur, the sticks are vulnerable, not my digits.



But that's my point, in my mind you're ranking your digits in higher regard than your head/life when you're trying to manoeuvre a piece through a machine like Mr Bean drives a car using the brushes and paint tins  



Bingy man said:


> Very interesting discussion and informative but I’m a little confused, I have a dewalt 745 lx portable table saw as my workshop is quite small and also the saw travels to some jobs with me . I’ve been using it for about 2 years now with no accidents but a couple of brown trouser moments . No1 moment was attempting to cut a 8-4 sheet of 18 mm ply on my own-no 2 was attempting to a taper cut freehand , no 3 was ripping a badly twisted piece of timber which then jammed against the fence /blade. No 1 solution was to build an extended frame/ table to support large sheets and get a 2nd person to assist. No 2 was to abandon taper cuts and use circular saw . No 3 ignore twisted/ warped timber . My query is the fence on my saw runs the entire length of the table as designed,,is this ok ? I use a single push stick toward the end of the cut and I also use 3D pushblocks for some cuts . I’ve also on a few occasions removed the riving knife ( to cut larger timber than my saw can cope with by cutting halfway then turning it over for the remainder of the cut . I’m very safety conscious and welcome criticism if anything I’ve said is concerning or outright dangerous. Also are there now circular saws on sale that don’t have the riving knife?? Many thanks


'Brown trouser moments LOL. I bought a track saw after cutting a sheet of ply on the table saw. Never again. I think that's what panel saws and track saws were created for, all the push sticks in the world won't get me doing that again!


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## Bingy man (9 Mar 2022)

BorisTheBlade said:


> But that's my point, in my mind you're ranking your digits in higher regard than your head/life when you're trying to manoeuvre a piece through a machine like Mr Bean drives a car using the brushes and paint tins
> 
> 
> 'Brown trouser moments LOL. I bought a track saw after cutting a sheet of ply on the table saw. Never again. I think that's what panel saws and track saws were created for, all the push sticks in the world won't get me doing that again!


So very true , ended up wrecking the plywood and nearly giving myself a heart attack-never again


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## Bingy man (9 Mar 2022)

My answer to cutting larger timber and sheet wood ( not 8-4) lol


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## LJM (9 Mar 2022)

BorisTheBlade said:


> But that's my point, in my mind you're ranking your digits in higher regard than your head/life when you're trying to manoeuvre a piece through a machine like Mr Bean drives a car using the brushes and paint tins



What a bizarre conclusion


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## TRITON (10 Mar 2022)

Anyway - on this page you can download the proper video instructions for safe use of the ripsaw.




__





Introduction to woodcutting machinery – Circular saw bench


Health and safety executive advice for the woodworking industry and allied trades occupational health and safety advice




www.hse.gov.uk





On this page of the HSE safe use of saw bench, the left hand is on the table at the start f the cut, applying side pressure, the right uses a push stick to put the timber right through.


https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf



If of course you are uncomfortable with having your hand on the table, but remember you are only guiding it so far, and not to the point it is close to the blade, OR the timbers giving a propensity to move away from the fence, then you could use a second push stick to apply side pressure and keep it tight to the fence. I see no harm in that.
Using a single push stick, especially when the timber wants to move away from the fence, you are not only trying to apply forward pressure to push it through but also trying to apply side pressure and keep it tight to the fence. I would say trying to do two things with the one push stick is not the way you should look at it.

If you've got a lot of identical rip cuts to do, you could fit a featherboard to the table to apply the side pressure and then its only the right hand you need use to control the push stick.

ALTERNATIVELY 
Buy a sawstop saw.
Problem solved.


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## jetsetwilly (10 Mar 2022)

Here's another (recently converted!) proponent of both Sawstop and two pushsticks - Reg Kreuger, who got a pretty good chunk taken out of his left thumb when he lost concentration while making repeated rips and recovering the offcut with his left hand for the next rip. .


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## Bingy man (10 Mar 2022)

jetsetwilly said:


> Here's another (recently converted!) proponent of both Sawstop and two pushsticks - Reg Kreuger, who got a pretty good chunk taken out of his left thumb when he lost concentration while making repeated rips and recovering the offcut with his left hand for the next rip. .



Says it all really


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## TRITON (10 Mar 2022)

Another thing to notice about that vid is the blade looks to be fully up. The saw he has is 80mm depth of cut, and it looks like its up to max. The timber he's cutting looks to be about 1",maybe 30mm.
Personally I have it so just about the gullets clear. Say about 8mm through the workpiece.


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## Inspector (10 Mar 2022)

One other thing that may have added to the severity of his thumb injury is that if it was the same kind of blade as the one in the saw for the video the chip limiting teeth slow down the braking action. Those blades should not be used in a SawStop table saw. I have a set of dado blades with them on and had the saw sharpening place in town grind them off. Then of course got a real good deal on a better set without the limiting teeth. 

Pete


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## Ozi (10 Mar 2022)

Doug71 said:


> @Ozi there is nothing wrong with going around the back of the table saw and pulling through longer lengths, it's the safest place to be!
> 
> It can take a bit of practise getting used to keeping the wood tight against the fence when you are pulling though.


Thanks Doug. That's what I thought but I new I didn't know if you take my meaning, half expected to find a video here this morning with a mans head rolling out of a workshop door.


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## Fergie 307 (10 Mar 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> There are primarily 2 dangers:
> 
> 1) getting cut by the saw blade
> 
> ...


I would add a very important item. A sharp blade. You are far more likely to have problems with any saw if the blade is blunt.


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## Sgian Dubh (10 Mar 2022)

BorisTheBlade said:


> Thanks for the link, making my way through it - have to say the epic moustache is both glorious and very distracting.


The moustache hasn't gone away, but it's twenty years greyer, so maybe not quite so, hmm[?], epic and distracting. I did try going moustache-less for a while about fifteen years ago; hated the look and resurrected the hairy top lip pretty quickly, and I've never had to put any effort into Movember, which I studiously ignore anyway. Slainte.


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## BorisTheBlade (10 Mar 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> The moustache hasn't gone away, but it's twenty years greyer, so maybe not quite so, hmm[?], epic and distracting. I did try going moustache-less for a while about fifteen years ago; hated the look and resurrected the hairy top lip pretty quickly, and I've never had to put any effort into Movember, which I studiously ignore anyway. Slainte.


I have had a beard for the past 8-10 years and had it since I first met my wife. I had to shave it off due to an altercation with some asbestos tiles and I looked like a P.O.W as the sun hadn't touched my face for so long! You need to post a picture of the grey beast.


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## BorisTheBlade (10 Mar 2022)

LJM said:


> What a bizarre conclusion


I have to confess to being a teacher by trade and go from school to school teaching loads of kids who I only see for 45 mins a week. If they're laughing, they're learning. I feel that in the same vein, if we can have fun whilst having conflicting ideas we can keep a positive energy that's conducive to constructive debate. I feel it was more hilarious than bizzare but I may be slightly biassed. It does conjure up an image...


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## Doug71 (10 Mar 2022)

jetsetwilly said:


> Here's another (recently converted!) proponent of both Sawstop and two pushsticks - Reg Kreuger, who got a pretty good chunk taken out of his left thumb when he lost concentration while making repeated rips and recovering the offcut with his left hand for the next rip. .




There are so many Youtube videos of people having accidents it's almost like they do it on purpose for views. Reg Kreugers accident isn't really a great advert for Sawstop and shows you still need to take care when using one. 



TRITON said:


> Another thing to notice about that vid is the blade looks to be fully up. The saw he has is 80mm depth of cut, and it looks like its up to max. The timber he's cutting looks to be about 1",maybe 30mm.
> Personally I have it so just about the gullets clear. Say about 8mm through the workpiece.



My blade stays at full height, I see no problem with this if it's properly guarded. It means the blade is pushing the timber down to the table rather than back at you, also less teeth in the cut so not as much heat generated and blades last longer (that's the theory anyway). If I wasn't using a crown guard I would drop the blade down to the height you suggest though.


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## TRITON (10 Mar 2022)

So it would appear that he's a complete ****, and also has 292k subscribers.

Theres hope for the rest of us yet


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## TRITON (10 Mar 2022)

Doug71 said:


> My blade stays at full height


 So amateurish



Doug71 said:


> It means the blade is pushing the timber down to the table rather than back at you


Point of fact I understand what you are saying, but if youre increasing the cutting angle it might increase the blunting effect, also its not really cutting in the way each tooth angle was designed to, its more slamming into the timber.


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## BorisTheBlade (10 Mar 2022)

Ok I think I've found a solve to my issue with the two push sticks. My concern is the lack of control you get with a push stick in regards to being able to keep contact with the material whilst putting pressure laterally and vertically as it works through the blade. I don't have one but I plan on getting a featherboard. I feel without this, it's not safe but maybe some people use two push sticks WHILST using this and you only need worry about lateral pressure. 

I'm still researching about the hand on the table side of things but really, even the HSE guidance seems brief and ambiguous. I would have thought there would be more in depth info on something that is potentially such high risk. I'll report back my findings and see if my summation of info makes sense to the elders of the workshop. (Moustache/beard specialism preferable)


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## Bingy man (10 Mar 2022)

Can I ask for your views on the use of the 3D push blocks I mentioned earlier, they can be set (carefully of course) so the blade passes above the workpiece but below the pushblock- made by micro jig. it allows you to apply downward pressure and lateral and can be set to apply pressure to the off cut or waste piece to reduce kickback and remove the risk of clearing it away from blade with a push stick. Once set up I do a dry run( power off ) to confirm the blade doesn’t come into contact with the push block or more importantly my hand holding the pushblock— interested in your and other members thoughts .I’ve also made a simple frame which has two feather boards attached to assist with repeat ripping cuts. This keeps enough lateral pressure to keep the timber against the fence ..


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## Doug71 (10 Mar 2022)

A couple of sample threads for the newer members to look through as an example of how the 2 push sticks and grrripper thing gets done to death on a regular basis.









Are Grippers much safer than push sticks?


Greetings all My DeWalt 745 table saw is still sitting on the floor in my workshop while I educate myself before I attempt my first cut. I stumbled into the MicroJig "Gripper" tool and many people seem to suggest they are a much safer tool than push sticks. So I came here hoping to find a long...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk













How to use push sticks to cut wood safely on a table saw.


This is after somebody asked on another thread how to use push sticks and so I looked online to see what there was and was a bit horrified at some of the contraptions that are being promoted. First off, this might not be 100% to the letter of the rules and I’m sure it will be pointed out to me...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk





Hopefully you will find all you need in the above.

It's a no to Grrrippers by the way.


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## Jacob (10 Mar 2022)

BorisTheBlade said:


> Ok I think I've found a solve to my issue with the two push sticks. My concern is the lack of control you get with a push stick in regards to being able to keep contact with the material whilst putting pressure laterally and vertically as it works through the blade.......


With a bit of practice I found that 2 push sticks actually _improves_ contact and control. The standard model is a subtle shape not unlike a hand with thumb down and fingers curled, just as you would apply your hand to the workpiece. Very adaptable between pressure in and/or down and free of risk means tighter control near the blade.
And you get that extra long reach for a steady uninterrupted pass, and the ability to flip offcuts out of the way when close to the blade . etc, etc


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## Bingy man (10 Mar 2022)

Doug71 said:


> A couple of sample threads for the newer members to look through as an example of how the 2 push sticks and grrripper thing gets done to death on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info and I will certainly give this a read - as a fairly new table saw user it’s often overwhelming at the different ways to get the job done safely and I’d rather trust the advice from this forum over some unknown utuber just out for ratings.


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## Bingy man (10 Mar 2022)

Jacob said:


> With a bit of practice I found that 2 push sticks actually _improves_ contact and control. The standard model is a subtle shape not unlike a hand with thumb down and fingers curled, just as you would apply your hand to the workpiece. Very adaptable between pressure in and/or down and free of risk means tighter control near the blade.
> And you get that extra long reach for a steady uninterrupted pass, and the ability to flip offcuts out of the way when close to the blade . etc, etc


Until I started reading this thread I,d never heard of using 2 push sticks to feed the work piece through the saw. Left hand on the work piece to apply pressure towards the fence and downwards while the push stick was used towards the end of the cut . I’ll be reading the threads linked by @DOUG 71 as don’t want to adopt bad habits and pay the cost at some point .


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## BorisTheBlade (10 Mar 2022)

Doug71 said:


> A couple of sample threads for the newer members to look through as an example of how the 2 push sticks and grrripper thing gets done to death on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just had a look at the threads and phew that's a lot of push sticks  Great resources to have to hand, thanks for sharing.


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## Bingy man (11 Mar 2022)

Doug71 said:


> A couple of sample threads for the newer members to look through as an example of how the 2 push sticks and grrripper thing gets done to death on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I’ve gone over these threads and watched the videos and clicked on the various links several times to fully understand the information and advise. It leads me to believe I’ve been working in an unsafe manner and to date I’ve probably been lucky. So out goes the pushblock for table saw use , the riving knife will never be removed again -ditto for the guard . As I often cut reclaimed solid wood (mainly from old oak furniture) I will be making a shorter sub fence for use with solid wood. Please advise me if my summing up is correct.

2nd ask is in the uk table saw video (safety tip no 8 ) refers to not cutting a board wider than the width using the fence but doesn’t explain why not ?? Advise pls… he then refers to feeding a board in along the fence but standing at the side of the saw( jobsite) and says this is ok and a safe place to be . I will openly confess I’ve used this method but it does mean hands on the table ..again advise pls as it’s my intention to take the advice on this thread and remove any bad unsafe practices as new t/s user - btw I have found this thread both informative and interesting and enlightening. Thank you all for the important safety lesson. Oh and I have the dewalt 745 as in the uk safety video.


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## Sgian Dubh (11 Mar 2022)

There have been a few mentions of using hold downs on a bench/table saw, so I'm just going to add a note on their utility. 

Their usefulness for helping guide wood and aiding safety whilst ripping rough sawn boards is essentially non-existent in my experience. The reason for that is the wood varies too much in thickness, width and warp so the hold downs generally can't be set to accommodate all those variances. 

Hold down and guides can be set where the wood has been squared (or otherwise prepared to a particular profile, e.g. one edge bevelled) and there are multiple parts all of the same profile. This means removing the riving knife and crown guard (frowned upon), but HSE guidelines indicate that operations of this type can be done with a decent margin for safety if suitable alternative guarding is installed: well thought out hold downs much as just described would seem to fit the bill, and is similar to work holding devices typically used on spindle moulders. Slainte.


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## Against_The_Grain (13 Mar 2022)

TRITON said:


> Point of fact I understand what you are saying, but if youre increasing the cutting angle it might increase the blunting effect, also its not really cutting in the way each tooth angle was designed to, its more slamming into the timber.



With all due respect, this is completely incorrect and not a “point of fact” whatsoever.

The tooth cutting angle is dictated by the angle the tooth is set on the rim of the blade relative to the centre of rotation and not the height of the blade relative to the timber. What does change with the blade height is the trajectory the tooth travels through the timber, the lower the blade is the more long grain you will be cutting which will result in stringy chips which are difficult to remove from the gullets, whereas a blade that is higher will be cutting more short grain, resulting in finer chips and generally an easier time cutting as those fine chips don’t build up in the gullets as readily as the stringy ones.


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## TRITON (13 Mar 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> With all due respect, this is completely incorrect and not a “point of fact” whatsoever.
> 
> The tooth cutting angle is dictated by the angle the tooth is set on the rim of the blade relative to the centre of rotation and not the height of the blade relative to the timber. What does change with the blade height is the trajectory the tooth travels through the timber, the lower the blade is the more long grain you will be cutting which will result in stringy chips which are difficult to remove from the gullets, whereas a blade that is higher will be cutting more short grain, resulting in finer chips and generally an easier time cutting as those fine chips don’t build up in the gullets as readily as the stringy ones.


Are you disagreeing with me, or Doug71 ?
Im just trying to keep the peace. Yes i understand hook angle, and having the blade up full doesnt give you any magical benefits, and decreases safety to some extent, but i chose that words because i didnt want to antagonize the situation.
If you now wish to do so please quote Doug712 and not myself

Ta much


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## Against_The_Grain (13 Mar 2022)

TRITON said:


> Are you disagreeing with me, or Doug71 ?
> Im just trying to keep the peace. Yes i understand hook angle, and having the blade up full doesnt give you any magical benefits, and decreases safety to some extent, but i chose that words because i didnt want to antagonize the situation.
> If you now wish to do so please quote Doug712 and not myself



What I quoted is what you wrote isn't it? You said that: 


TRITON said:


> *but if youre increasing the cutting angle it might increase the blunting effect, also its not really cutting in the way each tooth angle was designed to, its more slamming into the timber.*



Which is completely incorrect, as per what I've written above.


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## Doug71 (13 Mar 2022)

I think a good analogy is how you use a bandsaw. If the table saw blade is set high the teeth that are cutting are coming straight down like the teeth on a bandsaw. If you are cutting something on the bandsaw and have a choice you have it flat on the table not stood on end. Using a bandsaw with the stock stood on end is like having the table saw blade set low as it's cutting straight in to the end grain which is harder work. I know that's taking it to the extreme but that's how I see it  

Oh and by the way hello and welcome to the forum @Against_The_Grain


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## TRITON (13 Mar 2022)

Doug71 said:


> Oh and by the way hello and welcome to the forum @Against_The_Grain


Ditto and straight in there  We have a handbags at dawn thread, i reckon you need to check it out  Have you met Jacob yet ?


Doug71 said:


> If the table saw blade is set high the teeth that are cutting are coming straight down like the teeth on a bandsaw


Erummmmm, not so. They're travelling in an arc arent they ? The only time they would be straight is what would be the middle of the spindle, and the table is well about the spindle, so i reckon on for example my own saw, which is a 10" blade, 80mm of cut. Half the blade from the center of the spindle, which is give or take 5" or 125mm, minus the 80mm dept of cut, so at the point of cut directly in line of the top of the table it would be 45mm above the center point, so will be moving in an arc. and being about the spindle, by nearly 2" the arc would still be side on, from the approximate left.

If it wasnt for the amount of junk i keep on my sawbench, id be out with the angle finder and work out exactly what it would be on a 1" section, top through bottom. 
But i think given the position of the blade, the spindle and he table we can agree its an arc, and not a bandsaw which is straight down.


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## Against_The_Grain (13 Mar 2022)

TRITON said:


> Erummmmm, not so. They're travelling in an arc arent they ? The only time they would be straight is what would be the middle of the spindle, and the table is well about the spindle, so i reckon on for example my own saw, which is a 10" blade, 80mm of cut. Half the blade from the center of the spindle, which is give or take 5" or 125mm, minus the 80mm dept of cut, so at the point of cut directly in line of the top of the table it would be 45mm above the center point, so will be moving in an arc. and being about the spindle, by nearly 2" the arc would still be side on, from the approximate left.
> 
> If it wasnt for the amount of junk i keep on my sawbench, id be out with the angle finder and work out exactly what it would be on a 1" section, top through bottom.
> But i think given the position of the blade, the spindle and he table we can agree its an arc, and not a bandsaw which is straight down.



Yes, the teeth are travelling in an arc, but naturally the higher the blade is the closer the front of the blade comes to a perpendicular cut downwards, as you say it will never be truly a perpendicular cut unless the centreline of the blade was level with the table. I believe the analogy used is still valid, it is much more labouring to cut long grain than short grain, and the difference of a cut on the bandsaw having the grain parallel to the table and the grain perpendicular with the end grain up will show this, it is much the same with a circular saw.

A 400mm blade will have an easier time cutting 75mm thick section with the blade at full height than it will with the gullets just protruding above the workpiece, the reason being that with the gullets just above the piece your arc through the cut is relatively shallow and there are a lot of teeth in contact with the piece during the cut, producing very stringy shavings (long grain) that generate a lot of friction. By contrast, with the blade at full height the teeth are mostly cutting completely downward and the bare minimum number of teeth is in the workpiece, the debris resultant from the higher arc is much finer (short grain) and easier on the blade to eject completely keeping the blade cooler during cutting.


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## TRITON (14 Mar 2022)

~Right ok, TLR but i will. Second you mentioned a 400mm blade i typed this reply. We aren't talking about a 400mmm blade, for the most part here, in relation to the accident vid shown, we're talking about a 250mm blade as that is the blade that saw takes, so best keep to that and not a hypothetical that suit the point of view.

The reason we set the blade at the height it is set at, say 6-8mm through the workpiece is because most of those here who do that, do so because they were taught to do that. You dont get a degree in cabinetmaking and furniture design if you go about ignoring the HSE safety instructions being taught to you and go off and do something else.

Now im sure most of us can think or imagine this is what happens when a blade at X height impacts the timber at Z but without an actual computer model showing exactly what happens then it is supposition.
I've already shown that due to the position of the spindle in relation to the table height above that spindle that the blade IS NOT slicing into the timber at a downward trajectory.

This accident occurred through carelessness. He was careless through complacency, and should have used his push stick to knock the offcut side further away from the blade before reaching for it. In all honesty it doesnt matter if the blade was fully up or in its proper position, though fully up there was more exposed blade to likely increase the risk and chances of the accident beign a serious one.

But the bottom line is he should have used a pushstick. Two makes it easy as one is already in your left hand, but it is no trouble at all to use the right side to knock the offcut clear, or even to swop it to his left hand and do that. He was wrong because he had gotten into the habit of using his hand too close to the blade, and eventually it bit him. Thankfully he is using sawstop, because if he wasnt, that wouldnt be a simple elastoplast wrapped around the end of his thumb and would be a big gigantic hospital wound dressing.


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## Against_The_Grain (14 Mar 2022)

TRITON said:


> ~Right ok, TLR but i will. Second you mentioned a 400mm blade i typed this reply. We aren't talking about a 400mmm blade, for the most part here, in relation to the accident vid shown, we're talking about a 250mm blade as that is the blade that saw takes, so best keep to that and not a hypothetical that suit the point of view.



It works the same with any height of blade relative to the thickness of timber, say a 250mm blade with a 40mm piece of timber. I used a 400mm blade as an example because that's my day-to-day machine.



TRITON said:


> The reason we set the blade at the height it is set at, say 6-8mm through the workpiece is because most of those here who do that, do so because they were taught to do that. You dont get a degree in cabinetmaking and furniture design if you go about ignoring the HSE safety instructions being taught to you and go off and do something else.



I'm not sure how the qualification is relevant to the discussion but OK. My C&G cabinetmaking qualification isn't one I'm particularly fond of as it was so easy to achieve and most of the people on the course were only there for the government grant money, making anything was almost optional and you got a shiny certificate at the end of the year for it, practically worthless really. It is much more difficult to get a wood machining diploma as there is a lot more theoretical work involved.



TRITON said:


> Now im sure most of us can think or imagine this is what happens when a blade at X height impacts the timber at Z but without an actual computer model showing exactly what happens then it is supposition.
> I've already shown that due to the position of the spindle in relation to the table height above that spindle that the blade IS NOT slicing into the timber at a downward trajectory.



It's not downward, it's just more downward than a cut where the gullets are just above the workpiece, resulting in easier cutting because you're cutting short grain, not long grain.




TRITON said:


> This accident occurred through carelessness. He was careless through complacency, and should have used his push stick to knock the offcut side further away from the blade before reaching for it. In all honesty it doesnt matter if the blade was fully up or in its proper position, though fully up there was more exposed blade to likely increase the risk and chances of the accident beign a serious one.
> 
> But the bottom line is he should have used a pushstick. Two makes it easy as one is already in your left hand, but it is no trouble at all to use the right side to knock the offcut clear, or even to swop it to his left hand and do that. He was wrong because he had gotten into the habit of using his hand too close to the blade, and eventually it bit him. Thankfully he is using sawstop, because if he wasnt, that wouldnt be a simple elastoplast wrapped around the end of his thumb and would be a big gigantic hospital wound dressing.



My argument was not about two pushsticks or whatever the fella did, it was your completely incorrect supposition about the angle changing as the blade height increases and decreases and causing more of a blunting effect, which is not true whatsoever.


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## Jacob (14 Mar 2022)

TRITON said:


> ...... Thankfully he is using sawstop, because if he wasnt, that wouldnt be a simple elastoplast wrapped around the end of his thumb and would be a big gigantic hospital wound dressing.


Just a passing thought here; if anybody thinks they are stupid (edited!) _doubts their ability_ enough to need a saw stop then he/she shouldn't be anywhere near the machine and maybe should start looking for a new career?


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## TRITON (14 Mar 2022)

Jacob said:


> Just a passing thought here; if anybody thinks they are stupid enough to need a saw stop then he/she shouldn't be anywhere near the machine and maybe should start looking for a new career?


That is _exactly_ the type of antagonistic post we have all come to expect from you Jacob  

Safety measures = Bad eh ?

Please explain why


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## TRITON (14 Mar 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> I'm not sure how the qualification is relevant to the discussion but OK. My C&G cabinetmaking qualification isn't one I'm particularly fond of as it was so easy to achieve and most of the people on the course were only there for the government grant money, making anything was almost optional and you got a shiny certificate at the end of the year for it, practically worthless really. It is much more difficult to get a wood machining diploma as there is a lot more theoretical work involved.



Its obviously relevant because they train you to a certain standard. This i think you know fine and well. 
Cause and effect plays a great part of our lives to prevent injury or even death. Are you against seatbelts in cars ?. Or using the green cross code when out and about. Clearly not. Because those have been found through study to go a long way in preventing accidents from occurring in the first place.

As with woodworking machinery. We do things a certain way, because it has been found these are the ways to prevent accidents
And that has been discovered by asking the people who have had accidents, what they were doing at the time the accident occurred.

So im sure you accept that we do things a certain way because the powers that be have worked out those are the safest way to do it.
No doubt in your C&G training, or machine shop training you covered the spindle moulder, and as you say C&G thats from a fair bit back so maybe trained in the bigger older types. Did your trainer introduce the moulder to you, a few instructions then walk off and leave you to it to make a cup of char and has a sitdown. I would say not because there would have likely been a serious accident. Do you use guards on the moulder ?. I would say yes. Then why ?, because you understand the dangers, and those danger you havent discovered by trial and error, you were taught them.
Hence being taught professionally goes a way to preventing dangers. 
I think we've all see the result of people doing diy with things like chop saws, sleeves down and reaching in to the blade area. People who are using dangerous machinery with no training whatsoever.



Against_The_Grain said:


> it was your completely incorrect supposition about the angle changing as the blade height increases and decreases and causing more of a blunting effect, which is not true whatsoever.


Well i disagree with you there. I ask they you show me other evidence to say that is the case.


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## Against_The_Grain (14 Mar 2022)

TRITON said:


> Its obviously relevant because they train you to a certain standard. This i think you know fine and well.
> Cause and effect plays a great part of our lives to prevent injury or even death. Are you against seatbelts in cars ?. Or using the green cross code when out and about. Clearly not. Because those have been found through study to go a long way in preventing accidents from occurring in the first place.
> 
> As with woodworking machinery. We do things a certain way, because it has been found these are the ways to prevent accidents
> ...



Again, I didn’t bring up safety at all, my argument is about efficiency of cut and how the blade actually cuts and your incorrect supposition, not how safe it is or not.

My spindle moulder training consisted of _“Right, here’s the on button, off button, sharp bit is here don’t put your hands near it, now pull all these parts through it” _and after watching a couple being fed through they wandered off. You either sank or you swam.



TRITON said:


> Well i disagree with you there. I ask they you show me other evidence to say that is the case.



There doesn’t need to be evidence, it’s quite simple to understand if you understand how wood works, cutting the short grain is much easier than the long grain with a circular saw.


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## TRITON (14 Mar 2022)

Clearly you are talking, with respect, pish. 

Safety, it is about safety and ive just been checking out the City and guilds course work and none of what you suppose happens to coincide with reality. You were at no point ever taught to have the blade up at maximum, its something you've thought about in your head and have no proof to back it up.
Everything in the C&G is backed up by HSE regulation, and nowhere in regulation does it state blades should be set to maximum for all timber thicknesses.

As to efficiency, because thats what you're playing this as. Blade fully up dramatically increases the risk of kickback., and causes more saw marks to the cut surfaces. Its an aggressive way of doing it and because of that it is not recommended. You do it because you can rip the boards through faster. and in doing that there's more risk of complacency.
Im more about safety and doing things carefully and with thought. Safety factors are there for a very good reason.


Spindle moulders - just left to get on with it ?, what college was that. micky mouse central ?


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## Hornbeam (14 Mar 2022)

There have been a number of comments on this forum regarding blade height. Personally I set the height so the teeth are clearing the cut by about 6mm. I feel this is a less agressive cut and increases the number of teeth in the workpiece effectively increasing the blade tooth count giving a smoother cut. This is less of a consideration when rough ripping where a higher blade will require slightly less power
There have also been arguments that a higher set blade decreases the risk of kickback as the teeth are cutting more downwards. I would not agree with this as kickback originates from material being lifted by the back of the blade which when set higher is more likely to lift the wood. The 3 main protections are the correctly set height of the crown guard, correct with of riving knife for the kerf of the blade and the rip fence being set correctly so it doesnt extend too far past the front of teh sawblade or toe in and risk pinching the material between the fence and the blade. Note a lot of saws with fences which clamp on rails at the front and back of the table tend to crab really badly when being adjusted. They should also have a shorter subfence attached to the front portion


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## Inspector (14 Mar 2022)

Another video to watch about the blade braking ability of a SawStop. There is an inaccuracy or two like the dado blade being illegal in Europe and the guy plugging his stuff but the interesting part to see is what happens to a dado blade as it is stopped. 
 He starts talking about it at 5:20min.

Pete 
One who is smart enough to have it but not rely on it over safe practices.


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## RobinBHM (14 Mar 2022)

Hornbeam said:


> There have been a number of comments on this forum regarding blade height. Personally I set the height so the teeth are clearing the cut by about 6mm. I feel this is a less agressive cut and increases the number of teeth in the workpiece effectively increasing the blade tooth count giving a smoother cut. This is less of a consideration when rough ripping where a higher blade will require slightly less power
> There have also been arguments that a higher set blade decreases the risk of kickback as the teeth are cutting more downwards. I would not agree with this as kickback originates from material being lifted by the back of the blade which when set higher is more likely to lift the wood. The 3 main protections are the correctly set height of the crown guard, correct with of riving knife for the kerf of the blade and the rip fence being set correctly so it doesnt extend too far past the front of teh sawblade or toe in and risk pinching the material between the fence and the blade. Note a lot of saws with fences which clamp on rails at the front and back of the table tend to crab really badly when being adjusted. They should also have a shorter subfence attached to the front portion



you might find experiment with blade height helps with break out -if cutting plywood or veneered boards, sometimes raising or lowering the height improves the cut by reducing chipping out -on both top and underside. 

I personally think 6mm above work is a little on small side, but that may work best for you on your saw. Thin materials I go higher generally.


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## RobinBHM (14 Mar 2022)

TRITON said:


> You were at no point ever taught to have the blade up at maximum



blade up at maximum is not the safest method - on my panel saw, if using 400mm blade that’s over 100mm of blade above the table, no way would I do that.

I can’t see blade height having any real impact on rate of saw bluntening - inconsistent feed rates, stopping and allowing burning will blunten the blade, as will abrasive material like melamine faced boards, mdf, OSB etc


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## TRITON (14 Mar 2022)

Inspector said:


> Another video to watch about the blade braking ability of a SawStop.


Ye gods  that is brave, testing your willy against the saw stop mechanism.


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## Against_The_Grain (14 Mar 2022)

TRITON said:


> Clearly you are talking, with respect, pish.
> 
> Safety, it is about safety and ive just been checking out the City and guilds course work and none of what you suppose happens to coincide with reality. You were at no point ever taught to have the blade up at maximum, its something you've thought about in your head and have no proof to back it up.
> Everything in the C&G is backed up by HSE regulation, and nowhere in regulation does it state blades should be set to maximum for all timber thicknesses.
> ...



To be fair, I was a practicing machinist and spindle hand long before I was a properly qualified one, where I began my work they did not have the time nor inclination to train thoroughly so you were simply shown the very basics and you learned as you went along, hence sink or swim, many sank but the ones that could swim became the best.

Again, I didn't bring up health and safety or qualifications, I simply said that cutting short grain with a blade at a higher height is easier than long grain with a blade at a lower height and what you were saying in regards to cutting angles was completely incorrect. I never said that I was taught to have the blade at maximum height, these are words you are putting in my mouth and I do not appreciate it. With a properly set riving knife, crown guard, short fence, and push/spiked sticks there is very little risk of kickback even with a blade at full height, you would set the guard to be 1/4" from the top of the work but the blade could be several inches higher above the work again, especially on rip saws where there was no height adjustment and by default were fully raised.

It doesn't particularly cause more saw marks to the cut surfaces to have the blade at full height as compared to slightly above the workpiece, even so, you practically always work the sawn edges over the jack to get them to a desirable surface that can be used further. I'm not talking about speed when I'm talking about efficiency, it's efficient cutting short grain because the saw blade does not get as hot as cutting long grain which causes friction, which drastically reduces the life of the saw blade as you will know, it's less of an issue with the modern carbide toothed blades as compared to the older type with plain set teeth or tipped with stellite but it can still cause blades to warp and carbide to wear out prematurely, as well as there is less labour on the motor to rip the same section.


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## TRITON (14 Mar 2022)

Then i accept your answer and look to my own shortcomings in being a know it all barsteward. And perhaps a bit pedantic with it.

Just a bit


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## whitty (15 Mar 2022)

Doug71 said:


> There are so many Youtube videos of people having accidents it's almost like they do it on purpose for views. Reg Kreugers accident isn't really a great advert for Sawstop and shows you still need to take care when using one.
> 
> 
> 
> My blade stays at full height, I see no problem with this if it's properly guarded. It means the blade is pushing the timber down to the table rather than back at you, also less teeth in the cut so not as much heat generated and blades last longer (that's the theory anyway). If I wasn't using a crown guard I would drop the blade down to the height you suggest though.


After working in many joinery shops for 55 years, the bigger bench saws always had the blades at full height. always guarded, the dimension saws were the only ones that had blades adjusted to suit the job in hand.


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## Doug71 (15 Mar 2022)

whitty said:


> After working in many joinery shops for 55 years, the bigger bench saws always had the blades at full height. always guarded, the dimension saws were the only ones that had blades adjusted to suit the job in hand.



I guess that's where my leaving the blade at full height comes from. We had a Wadkin BSW for years, blade was always at full height. Crown guard was always set to allow 4" timber under as that was the largest commonly used although there was a nosepiece that was dropped down to within half inch of whatever timber you were cutting. The crown guard did get wound up on occasion when there was deeper timber to cut, it would happily deep cut 6" timber with an inch of teeth sticking out above.


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## Keith 66 (16 Mar 2022)

I recently visited our local mens shed to drop off some tools & woodwork related books i have no use for, I know the guy who runs it quite well. Nice bloke, very well meaning & the shed is going well. Before the lockdown he was trying to get me to help out there.
On my latest visit a guy was using the bench saw & in two cuts you could see the wood trying to climb the blade & how he avoided a kickback i do not know. No guard, no riving knife.
I pointed out straight away what i thought. the reply was "Two of the blokes are ex industry & said its ok to remove them as they get in the way". This in a place & situation where people who are often very inexperienced are using said machines.
I have told the organiser my view that when there is an accident, whoever took the guards etc off is liable, followed by the organisers or shed committee. Can you honestly see an insurance company paying out if guards are deliberately removed?
I hope they take it on board, otherwise somebody is going to get badly hurt.
Having spent 15 years in the education sector where safety around machines was paramount I find some attitudes hard to get my head round.


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## hlvd (16 Mar 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> I recently visited our local mens shed to drop off some tools & woodwork related books i have no use for, I know the guy who runs it quite well. Nice bloke, very well meaning & the shed is going well. Before the lockdown he was trying to get me to help out there.
> On my latest visit a guy was using the bench saw & in two cuts you could see the wood trying to climb the blade & how he avoided a kickback i do not know. No guard, no riving knife.
> I pointed out straight away what i thought. the reply was "Two of the blokes are ex industry & said its ok to remove them as they get in the way". This in a place & situation where people who are often very inexperienced are using said machines.
> I have told the organiser my view that when there is an accident, whoever took the guards etc off is liable, followed by the organisers or shed committee. Can you honestly see an insurance company paying out if guards are deliberately removed?
> ...


I suspect the only person going to get charged for that breach of H&S is the organiser/named person, any user will be absolved of punishment as they’re unpaid and under your friend’s supervision.


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## Keith 66 (16 Mar 2022)

Unless they were the person that actually removed said safety equipment, in that case they should most definately be liable.


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## TominDales (17 Mar 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> I recently visited our local mens shed
> On my latest visit a guy was using the bench saw & in two cuts you could see the wood trying to climb the blade & how he avoided a kickback i do not know. No guard, no riving knife.
> I pointed out straight away what i thought. the reply was "Two of the blokes are ex industry & said its ok to remove them as they get in the way". This in a place & situation where people who are often very inexperienced are using said machines.


It's probably why they are 'ex industry'. I can foresee where this will end-up...
Someone (with tenacious relatives) will eventually get killed, there will be an enquiry and mens sheds will be required to be regulated, inspected, audited etc and most will close... A bit of common sense and best practice is all that is needed, but I suspect the few cowboys will spoil this hobby.
Its probably worth tactfully giving the organiser the HSE guidance on table saws.

On a completely off topic point. We have a number of pet shops in and around town, they all used to sell fish until the regulations tightened. Now the large shedshop still does. However the one run by 3 elderly ladies stopped, because they couldn't be bothered to go on the course to get the qualification - they are all well into their 60s. The irony for me, is their knowledge and experience is second to none, their advice over the years on our various pet (including fish) issues was often better than the vets - especially dealing with a cat with diabetes that the vet was slow to diagnose. Whilst I'm for the regulations as the big sheds need it (our 'shed' employs minimum wage with minimum qualification), I find it sad that we end-up driving out of business those with a lifetime of common sense and good safe practice. I want to buy some Nitromoors with DCM in it to remove a stubborn wall of old paint (without damaging the old surface). But I need to go on course that cost £300 in order to do so, despite having a ph.D in chemistry.


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## hlvd (17 Mar 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> Unless they were the person that actually removed said safety equipment, in that case they should most definately be liable.


I work in a sort of similar situation and the only persons responsible for those machines are myself and my colleagues.
Any accidents that happens when non employees use machines are our fault, we are solely responsible.
Your friend needs to be made aware of this as well as the people under his supervision.


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## TominDales (17 Mar 2022)

hlvd said:


> I work in a sort of similar situation and the only persons responsible for those machines are myself and my colleagues.
> Any accidents that happens when non employees use machines are our fault, we are solely responsible.
> Your friend needs to be made aware of this as well as the people under his supervision.


I agree, the more I think about it, the guy is really exposed, especially given what table saws can do.... If something bad happened the HSE call in the police and he will face a criminal charge. Tact is probably required here if he is in the dark on these matters but HSE is pretty clear, whilst not wanting to spook the guy, it would be terrible if something bad happened and a well meaning person realised he had been negligent. Also if someone removes safety equipment without the responsible persons permission they are committing an offence.

I've had a bit of a google and the risk management advice for UK mens sheds is a bit thin. There is a risk assessment of the association web site that mentions the hazards and importance of guards etc but its a bit thin. Safety & Risk Management -

Individual shed groups do have some better stuff such as this one from Whitby has a link to the HSE








Woodworking Videos and Guidance from Health & Safety Executive


Please spend time browsing these and raise any issues (including anything that is not understood) with your Shed duty manager or other experienced seniors. We are each responsible for our per…



whitbysheds.co.uk





The best ones are from Australia - that must be a safety first!
page 39, 40, 41, interesting that it mentions kick-back risk for the mitre saw but not the table saw.


https://mensshed.org/wpcontent/uploads/resources/Manuals/AMSA%20Resource%20The%20Complete%20Men's%20Shed%20Health%20%26%20Safety%20Manual%202015.pdf


.


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## Keith 66 (17 Mar 2022)

I took advice from my old Data trainer & he confirmed what i had thought & what you guys have also said. I emailed him shortly afterwards & gave him the advice & hse guidance on tablesaws.
He took the message with good grace, He now has the problem of getting the guys to go along with it. Ultimately this may involve showing people the door. I know another local shed had to do exactly that a few years back.
Thanks for the advice, i will find out what happened in due course!


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## TominDales (17 Mar 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> I took advice from my old Data trainer & he confirmed what i had thought & what you guys have also said. I emailed him shortly afterwards & gave him the advice & hse guidance on tablesaws.
> He took the message with good grace, He now has the problem of getting the guys to go along with it. Ultimately this may involve showing people the door. I know another local shed had to do exactly that a few years back.
> Thanks for the advice, i will find out what happened in due course!


You done good as they say. Its hard giving friends advice like this. You have done him a good turn. Maybe he should get you or others of experience from the community to lay the law down for his shed. The HS&E guidance is very clear. Best wishes Tom


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## okeydokey (17 Mar 2022)

Some years ago I visited a fairly newly setup men shed and was asked if I wished to join and perhaps take on a trustee or supervisory role or first aider role. I thanked them for showing me around but said at the moment I didn't have the time as I was busy enough pottering around with my own odd jobbies/hobbies. 
In reality all of the above H+S issues/concerns/liabilities was in the forefront of my mind and perhaps selfishly I have kept well away. If I had trainer qualifications and etc then perhaps my decision could have been different. But even if I had taken it up... probably the trainer person (could have been ME) who set up a system that without training nobody could use stuff still picks up a none escapable liability. Well thats my thoughts anyway


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## Devmeister (18 Mar 2022)

Using a table saw assumes you have been trained. I received training years ago in high school when they had shops. I also have copies of Oliver’s training Manuel’s written for teaching table saw safety in boys votech programs.

Today I see young folks using table saws with no training both within the hobby and the industry. Not Good!

The assumption you can’t get hurt if your using a saw stop is simply false. The vast majority of accidents are kick back related. Sure there are fools who simply get their fingers to close to the blade, but most accidents are kick back related.

What most folks don’t know is a kick back is not a linear action. The flight path is curvilinear with a large radius. What this means is significant. As a board begins its kick back, it actually rotates bringing your fingers online with the blade. So know you have a finger accident. If your in line with the flight path of the kick back, your likely going to get hit as well.

The riving knife will go a long way to preventing this rotation action. But you also need to be aware of ride up. Ride up will turn a cut kerf into a rack and pinion gear set very quickly and efficiently.

So guys who run old iron with decades of experience and training make it look easy. It’s a case of Do as I say Not as I do.


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## Morag Jones (4 Apr 2022)

Please, hope this is not too contentious...

I 'inherited' a Bestcombi 2000, seems adequate for my needs, but I dont need it every day. So I made a cover for it with scrap worktop so I can extend my work area. Routed a shallow slot to allow for the blade. Even when fully retracted it is a little proud of the surface. Is it meant to go all the way down (below flush) btw?

The riving knife got lost along the way and a mate gave me one out of his scrap box  which looks remarkably similar to the OE. But this protrudes up even further. You'll see a little notch at the back, this allows me to use the orange guard/dust hood. It has a much bigger port than the original Kity one.

So my question; is there any safety reason why I shouldn't cut a bit off the top and re-drill the hole to keep the protrusion only marginally more than the blade? Approx at the thicker marked Sharpie line. This would let me put the cover on without faffing about taking the knife off every time?

Sorry if this is an obvious basic question, would appreciate advice. Thanks.


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## Bingy man (4 Apr 2022)

Morag Jones said:


> Please, hope this is not too contentious...
> 
> I 'inherited' a Bestcombi 2000, seems adequate for my needs, but I dont need it every day. So I made a cover for it with scrap worktop so I can extend my work area. Routed a shallow slot to allow for the blade. Even when fully retracted it is a little proud of the surface. Is it meant to go all the way down (below flush) btw?
> 
> ...


I have no experience with your machine but if you’ve read all the posts in this thread you will find as I did removing the riving knife is not recommended at anytime ( I’m guilty of this but not anymore) my background as a gas engineer would tell me not to alter a safety device (riving knife ) or fit non original parts to what can effectively cause you serious injuries. I’m sure that others on this forum will have much more experience in this area and with your machine - obvious ? Have you tried ordering an original part ( if available) . As far as your blade height I would expect it to be lowered below the table surface which would suggest a possible adjustment reqd or again obvious?? Is it the correct blade diameter for your machine.


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## Lazurus (4 Apr 2022)

I can see no reason why you couldn't remove a small amount from the riving knife. I have seen several that have been shortened so rebates can be cut without removing the knife completely, but as with all things safety first. Oh and on my Sheppach 4020 I have the same issue with the blade standing a little proud, it is annoying yes.


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## Morag Jones (4 Apr 2022)

Bingy man said:


> I have no experience with your machine but if you’ve read all the posts in this thread you will find as I did removing the riving knife is not recommended at anytime ( I’m guilty of this but not anymore) my background as a gas engineer would tell me not to alter a safety device (riving knife ) or fit non original parts to what can effectively cause you serious injuries. I’m sure that others on this forum will have much more experience in this area and with your machine - obvious ? Have you tried ordering an original part ( if available) . As far as your blade height I would expect it to be lowered below the table surface which would suggest a possible adjustment reqd or again obvious?? Is it the correct blade diameter for your machine.


Thanks. Needs more investigation I think. I don't know why there wasn't a riving knife on it when I got it, as the prev. user had passed away. The manual is not hugely helpful, other than showing a knife that looks identical.


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## Bingy man (4 Apr 2022)

Morag Jones said:


> Thanks. Needs more investigation I think. I don't know why there wasn't a riving knife on it when I got it, as the prev. user had passed away. The manual is not hugely helpful, other than showing a knife that looks identical.


Fully understand and better to be safe than injured so take your time other members will probably be able to help you further especially if they have the same machine -good luck


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## Essex Barn Workshop (5 Apr 2022)

Warning, injury photo coming up.
Ive been using table saws safely for years, and here was so lucky that I didn’t touch bone. This is after a hospital visit and 10 days healing time.

This is current, I did it about 12 days ago.


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## Bingy man (5 Apr 2022)

Essex Barn Workshop said:


> Warning, injury photo coming up.
> Ive been using table saws safely for years, and here was so lucky that I didn’t touch bone. This is after a hospital visit and 10 days healing time.
> 
> This is current, I did it about 12 days ago.
> View attachment 133090


The angels were with you that day - looks like just a brief encounter with the blade .


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## Spectric (5 Apr 2022)

Essex Barn Workshop said:


> Ive been using table saws safely for years,


A major contributing factor in safety, you get over confident and become less aware of the hazzard, but in a split second you are brought back to reality, this time you got away with keeping your thumb but that tablesaw has always been dangerous and waiting for you to give it a digit!


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## Phill05 (5 Apr 2022)

Rather than cut the riving knife down I have lengthened the slot below where you can then adjust the knife to suit the blade then lock it up.


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## 6x4 (6 Apr 2022)

Phill05 said:


> Rather than cut the riving knife down I have lengthened the slot below where you can then adjust the knife to suit the blade then lock it up.


+1 for this, I did it and think it’s the right thing to do, just consider if the slot needs to angle/curve to preserve the separation from the back of the blade.


This way the knife can stay in (lower) for grooving (dadoes) or partial cuts provided you’re ok with this and be pulled up for full capacity with the guard


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## SamG340 (6 Apr 2022)

I was thinking about this the other day, I'm a novice woodworker. I was wondering what side of the table saw you should stand ? 

I figured to the right so the fence is in-between me and the blade but being right handed that doesn't give me much control over the wood


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## Morag Jones (6 Apr 2022)

I had considered lengthening the slot, but as you say Phill, it will need slight keyhole at the top to allow it to rotate around the blade. At present it is 3mm clearance around the blade. The length below the fixings might not allow the knife to go any lower. 
Thinking a cardboard mock-up pattern would be prudent before getting the grinder out!


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## 6x4 (6 Apr 2022)

Morag Jones said:


> I had considered lengthening the slot, but as you say Phill, it will need slight keyhole at the top to allow it to rotate around the blade. At present it is 3mm clearance around the blade. The length below the fixings might not allow the knife to go any lower.
> Thinking a cardboard mock-up pattern would be prudent before getting the grinder out!


I think i got dividers out to mark a constant radius from the arbour the the knife will naturally arc around. It is probably just mild steel so careful progress with a file, maybe a drill might be a prudent approach. (Other) Phil


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## 6x4 (6 Apr 2022)

SamG340 said:


> I was thinking about this the other day, I'm a novice woodworker. I was wondering what side of the table saw you should stand ?
> 
> I figured to the right so the fence is in-between me and the blade but being right handed that doesn't give me much control over the wood


A few points, I’m no professional machinist so there will be better authorities here and elsewhere on the web, this represents what I do/don’t do;

but, you want to be in reach of the off switch without reaching over/through the work - that’s typically on the front left, fence on the right. 

you want to be applying consistent/just enough pressure to the fence when ripping. Reaching over the blade & fence to pull the workpiece towards you is going to be a hazard.

by all means stand out of the firing line of the blade in case of chips or the dreaded kickback, but hopefully on here you’re a) British and b) use a riving knife and guard to help avoid all that.


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## SamG340 (6 Apr 2022)

6x4 said:


> A few points, I’m no professional machinist so there will be better authorities here and elsewhere on the web, this represents what I do/don’t do;
> 
> but, you want to be in reach of the off switch without reaching over/through the work - that’s typically on the front left, fence on the right.
> 
> ...



Thankfully I am British  

I see what you mean about being near the off switch that's a good point


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## shed9 (6 Apr 2022)

With all that table saw nonsense aside, can I ask on what the best way to sharpen a plane blade would be?


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## Sgian Dubh (6 Apr 2022)

shed9 said:


> With all that table saw nonsense aside, can I ask on what the best way to sharpen a plane blade would be?


You're just looking for entertainment, aren't you? I'm not telling. Sorry to be unentertaining ... not. Slainte.


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## BucksDad (6 Apr 2022)

Essex Barn Workshop said:


> Warning, injury photo coming up.
> Ive been using table saws safely for years, and here was so lucky that I didn’t touch bone. This is after a hospital visit and 10 days healing time.
> 
> This is current, I did it about 12 days ago.



How did it happen?


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## Stanleymonkey (6 Apr 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> I recently visited our local mens shed to drop off some tools & woodwork related books i have no use for, I know the guy who runs it quite well. Nice bloke, very well meaning & the shed is going well. Before the lockdown he was trying to get me to help out there.
> On my latest visit a guy was using the bench saw & in two cuts you could see the wood trying to climb the blade & how he avoided a kickback i do not know. No guard, no riving knife.
> I pointed out straight away what i thought. the reply was "Two of the blokes are ex industry & said its ok to remove them as they get in the way". This in a place & situation where people who are often very inexperienced are using said machines.
> I have told the organiser my view that when there is an accident, whoever took the guards etc off is liable, followed by the organisers or shed committee. Can you honestly see an insurance company paying out if guards are deliberately removed?
> ...




That's quite a frustrating situation to deal with. 
"There is an accident about to happen"

"It's fine because - some knowledgeable people told me it was okay that way"

I know I'm over simplifying the conversation but why does someone value one person's opinion over another's. Is it first opinion is the best? Is it not understanding the complexity of it the machine? Is it out of respect for those who told him it was fine?

I'm not trying to stir anything up. Just to find a good way of dealing with similar situations when I come across them.


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## Adam W. (6 Apr 2022)

The answer is - these things are fitted to saws for a reason.


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## shed9 (6 Apr 2022)

Adam W. said:


> The answer is - these things are fitted to saws for a reason.


Pretty much this ^.

Keep the safety equipment on, no mater how inconvenient it is. The biggest safety issue I find myself with table saw users is complacency, that and a woeful lack of understanding of basic physics. (Edit: and no, I'm not suggesting I'm immune to that sometimes either).


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## TRITON (6 Apr 2022)

Essex Barn Workshop said:


> Warning, injury photo coming up.
> Ive been using table saws safely for years, and here was so lucky that I didn’t touch bone. This is after a hospital visit and 10 days healing time.
> 
> This is current, I did it about 12 days ago.
> View attachment 133090


Can we have an breakdown analysis of how you actually managed to do it ?. For academic purposes.


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## Spectric (6 Apr 2022)

shed9 said:


> that and a woeful lack of understanding of basic physics


maybe also biology because otherwise they would realise flesh versus blade is not good for your health and it is a biological function that hands the flesh over to the blade and not the tablesaw chasing the flesh!


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## Jacob (6 Apr 2022)

shed9 said:


> With all that table saw nonsense aside, can I ask on what the best way to sharpen a plane blade would be?


Rub it up and down on a piece of stone.


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## Keith 66 (7 Apr 2022)

> I'm not trying to stir anything up. Just to find a good way of dealing with similar situations when I come across them.



If you come across such situations it is best to be tactful, especially if as i was, not a member of the shed! If i was visiting a private individuals workshop I doubt i would get involved especially as their level of competence would be more readily apparent & its their business if they choose to work unsafely.
In the case of a Mens shed the very nature of the place means you will tend to have a high proportion of guys (members) who are inexperienced amateurs, many of whom will have zero experience with machines of any kind never mind circular saws.
This lack of knowledge & experience coupled with enthusiasm means the risk level is increased anyway. Add in safety equipment being removed & the risk & likelyhood of an accident rises drastically.
If you are involved running such a place you really need to think about what happens as you have a duty of care towards the other members. Duty of care nearly always follows best practice. So its no good saying "we are not a workplace so dont have to comply".

A yacht club i belong to owns a Crane, it is very old & really should be in a museum. It is owned & operated by the members & rightly is severely restricted as to what it is allowed to do. It gets inspected every year but im sure the inspector treads lightly. Only the other day one of the guys was saying "It only lifts masts" So i said "what about so & so's 4.5 ton yacht it lifted a month ago?". He didnt know or had conveniently forgotten about that. In the case of a crane if the thing breaks or falls over serious injury or death is highly likely, you can bet your life that Hse & lawyers will look at it as have they adhered to best practice & not "Its a club so we can get away with it".


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## Essex Barn Workshop (7 Apr 2022)

BucksDad said:


> How did it happen?


Truth is, I don’t know. I was cutting the mitres for a picture frame and using a jig, it happened in a micro second and I believe the blade was slowing to a stop. That’s all I remember.


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