# Workshop build



## dh7892 (28 Jun 2010)

So, after many small posts asking for advice and help, I've actually been building my workshop.

Here are some photos to prove it!

Progress is slow but steady.

(Hope the pics aren't too big)

Size it 5mx3m


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## RussianRouter (28 Jun 2010)

Nice.

You would have been best to lay a plastic sheating between brickand woodbase tostop damp rising,then trim to wall when build finished.


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## dh7892 (29 Jun 2010)

You can't see it from the pictures but there is a damp-proof course between the bricks and the first layer of wood. 

So don't worry :wink: 

I'm building in the style of Mike G (as per the sticky post). Hopefully that will mean a pretty decent quality of build.


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## dh7892 (12 Jul 2010)

More progress.

Walls boarded, insulation in and membrane wrapped around with battens holding in place ready for cladding to go on top.

We've had some nice weather recently which has been very lucky as I've taken a while to get the roof sorted but I've done the felt shingles this weekend and I'm very pleased with the results.


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## Gary (13 Jul 2010)

Is it just me or should the membrane have been on the otherside of the insulation?


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## Dibs-h (13 Jul 2010)

Gary":3gtc60i4 said:


> Is it just me or should the membrane have been on the otherside of the insulation?



I think so too. That looks like vapour barrier - so was expecting that inside and some sort of building wrap (breathable membrane) on the outside, counter battons and then the horizontal cladding.


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## dh7892 (13 Jul 2010)

Good point. I think I've bought the wrong stuff. 

According to Mike's sticky post, the OSB on the inside will act as the vapour barrier so I just need to replace my plasic sheet with breather membrane.

Any ideas where to get that?


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## Dibs-h (13 Jul 2010)

dh7892":1mn56bbx said:


> Good point. I think I've bought the wrong stuff.
> 
> According to Mike's sticky post, the OSB on the inside will act as the vapour barrier so I just need to replace my plasic sheet with breather membrane.
> 
> Any ideas where to get that?



http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tyvek-Housewrap-V ... _500wt_928

Tyvek is a premium brand and that's what I've stuck with over the years. No doubt there will be other products with BBA cert - hopefully someone will be able to give you a steer.

Whatever product you get - be worth getting the data sheet\installation manual from the manufacturer (hopefully they should have it on their website) - just to make sure there are no probs\issues later on. Might be worth looking at the manual\sheet before hand.

HIH

Dibs


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## RussianRouter (13 Jul 2010)

Did you soundproof it?  

Egg cartons are a great soundproofer ie the 24 egg cardboard pulp type.


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## Eric The Viking (14 Jul 2010)

RussianRouter":1jfsk58k said:


> Egg cartons are a great soundproofer ie the 24 egg cardboard pulp type.


I don't want to start an argument, but they're actually not very good at all.

If you _do_ want to soundproof it (and the insulation will do a lot anyway for the walls), consider the following:

There are two overall objectives:

1. stop sound escaping. This is the most important/effective thing. In order of significance (a) seal air gaps, and (b) stop the building, or parts of it, resonating with the machinery.

2. absorb as much as you can inside the building. This is where the egg-box idea applies, but it's not very effective (see below). Effective absorbency is very difficult to achieve in an 'industrial' context, and it's more expensive and nuisance-full than (1) above. 

I've headed the paragraphs below with which issue they address:

(2) Rockwool in the roof space (between rafters), left open and not clad. A vapour barrier will impede the absorption effect slightly (at high frequencies), but not much. Why Rockwool? It's fireproof, it lasts forever, it works very well as a sound absorber, more so if it is cut to an irregular surface shape (triangles, lumps, blocks, pyramids, etc.), it's reasonably solid (for fragile values of solid) and it's less of a skin irritant than fibreglass and doesn't attract or retain damp (much). It's not cheap, but it is safe and does work. If you want to keep it clean but retain the max. sound absorbency, cover it in thin cloth.

(1) Attend to all uncontrolled air gaps, especially under the eaves (block them). You can use squirty-foam if it helps. Piercing noises (like planers and routers) tend to escape more through small cracks (and then carry outside!). It's the thing neighbours hate most and airtightness (in a controlled way!) sorts it.

(1) (2) For ventilation, arrange vents so that air moves through a short ducts lined thickly with rockwool, pref. one that turns down through a right-angle either side of the wall. Wood (ply or OSB) is marginally better than metal. If the duct is lined and "U" shaped overall, the area won't matter enormously, so you can still get good airflow. Make your vents, then test once the machines are in. If too much escapes, have a 'plug' of rockwool handy you can stuff into the vent for prolonged noisy operations. Stick it in a plastic bag to minimize disintegration.

(2) (1) Fix rockwool panels to the inside of exterior doors, and make sure they fit well and have a seal, including at the bottom.

(1) Don't fix machines or benches directly to the outside walls or ceiling - sound travels most efficiently through solid objects. There doesn't need to be more than a tiny gap (millimetres), just no mechanical coupling between the two. Your floor slab won't transmit much, but the walls may if you connect vibrating things to them. 

(1) A wall-mounted dust system is bad news in a lightly-timber-framed building like yours, soundwize. If you have one, stand it off the wall on its own frame if you can, and fix that to the floor, and at a pinch the rafters too, but _not_ to the wall. 

(1) Windows are a problem. The ideal for soundproofing is secondary glazing with an air gap of 4" (both panes sealed), but that's impractical for this. You get good insulation down to about 2", at which point I personally think the law of diminishing returns begins to apply. 

(2) if you're doing wall-hung kitchen cupboards for storage, consider putting rockwool slabs on top of them. they may need vacuuming occasionally (dust trap), but the acute angle where they meet the roof makes a very effective sound absorber (assuming rockwool on both surfaces).

Aside: We're on a busy main road here (about 15ft away) with a police and a fire station on it, and a major hospital too, so we get the lot! We have recent double glazing, with 'Everest' secondary glazing. This was bought by the previous owners and we carefully put it all back after the windows were replaced some years ago (it gives us about a 3" gap). 

The Everest stuff has a good brush-strip seal all round, but slides in sections. When it's closed. it sounds in the front like fire engines are at the back of the house, as more sound comes through there than the front windows. As soon as you slide one of the panels, even slightly, you can hear the traffic noise again. 

So secondary glazing really does work well. My guess is about 30dB improvement overall, compared to an open window.

(1) The main thing is a good seal round opening casements, so you can close them for noisy jobs. It'll get you about 10-20dB attenuation (still worth having). It's a logarithmic scale: every 3dB is a doubling or halving of sound power. 

If you want to improve the windows further, do the secondary glazing thing: even slidy perspex panels would work - it''s the airtightness when they're closed that makes the difference. Conventional double glazing panels will only work if the casements are effectively sealed (draught proofed). They have an effect on mid- and higher-pitched sounds (significantly better than single-glazing, usually), but don't do a lot at low frequencies (they act like drum skins). If you use glass, it's best to use different thicknesses for the two panes (secondary and main), as this helps to stop them resonating 'sympathetically', i.e. together. To be honest this is more of an issue in audio studios, but it will still help.

(2) (don't laugh): fit a carpet. Warm feet in winter! Seriously, even industrial matting will help a bit. 

(2) Incidentally, if you do soundproof inside effectively, you'll be pleased by how much you reduce the apparent machine noise too. A lot of noise from machines is bounced back by hard surfaces. If you have absorbers it'll be a more comfortable working environment for you too. 

The above is counsel of perfection. A cheapskate (like me) would probably just do the air gaps door/window seals and the vents, to get max. bang-for-buck.

Oh and finally, sound absorbency used to be officially measured in 'open window units. Honestly.

HTH (if you're going down that route).

E.


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## dh7892 (14 Jul 2010)

Thanks for the informative post. 

I'm not too worried about sound-proofing. I'm sure it will be a lot better than the single-skin shed that I had at my last place. 

One point that you did make about avoiding coupling machines to the walls has struck a chord with me. I hadn't really given much thougth to it but I can see now that it might turn the whole building into one giant resonating chamber so I'll be careful about that. I've got some Sorbothane rubber which is very good at de-coupling vibrations so I could always use that if I need to attach something to the walls and find it's making a bit of a racket.


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## dh7892 (14 Jul 2010)

On the subject of the breather membrane, can I use roofing breather membrane like http://www.screwfix.com/prods/95917/Building/Roofing-Insulation/Roofers-Membrane-45x1m?

I can't seem to find the Tyvek building wrap in anything other than 100m rolls which is way more than I want.


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## Eric The Viking (14 Jul 2010)

dh7892":1nn7nl37 said:


> Thanks for the informative post.
> 
> I'm not too worried about sound-proofing. I'm sure it will be a lot better than the single-skin shed that I had at my last place.



I'm sure you're right! If the neighbours haven't complained, your new shop will be much better - it's evident from the pictures.



> One point that you did make about avoiding coupling machines to the walls has struck a chord with me. I hadn't really given much thougth to it but I can see now that it might turn the whole building into one giant resonating chamber



Think of the wall working as a drumskin or a loudspeaker cone. It's not the resonance as much as the transmission through the wall, then a really good coupling ('impedance match', for the technically inclined) to the air on the other side (large area, small physical movement). But you're right in that it will make it noisier inside too, for the same reason (the machine makes the walls vibrate, transmitting the sound into the air more efficiently than if it's free standing). 

It's the reason why cutting thin ply with an electric jigsaw is so ridiculously noisy - the oscillating blade vibrates the panel really well, so even though the motor is tiny (mine's only a couple of hundred watts), the coupling to air is way too efficient!



> I've got some Sorbothane rubber which is very good at de-coupling vibrations so I could always use that if I need to attach something to the walls and find it's making a bit of a racket.



It might work, but I doubt it, because the whatever-it-is has to hang on support screws. bolts. shelf, etc. It's these that will transmit (couple) the vibration to the wall. Having said that, the infilled studwork and the OSB on the inside will do a lot to damp vibration anyway. You'd probably get away with it for practical purposes (as I said, my post was a counsel of perfection really).


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## dh7892 (14 Jul 2010)

Yup, I understand all too well about impedance and the like (I work in the field of shock physics for my day-job) but, as you say, it's all probably fine for my requirements. 

If I start getting any complaints then I'll worry about it. 

For my own comfort I always use ear-plugs when using noisy machines anyway. No sense making guitars if you can't hear them when you're done because you've deafened yourself!


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## Dibs-h (14 Jul 2010)

I just Googled,

timber frame breather membrane

and almost all the products that came back seem to come in a variety of widths but all seem to have 100m on a roll.

I personally wouldn't use a product designed for a Roof on a timber frame, you might get away with it, but you might not.

HIH

Dibs.


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## chipchaser (14 Jul 2010)

Hello dh,

Looks like a very good shed.

In a shed there is little practical difference between a breather membrane for use with roofing and that for wall frames. Roofing membranes withstand a higher static head of water but are not as permeable to vapour whereas wall framing membranes have less resistance to static head of water but are more permeable to vapour. However, the standards applied in tests are related to houses or similar buildings where the uses produce more water vapour: boiling kettles, cooking, bathing, showering etc. If you want to see for yourself look at these two BBA certificates:

Table 3 in Supro for roofs
http://construction.tyvek.co.uk/Tyvek_C ... _roofs.pdf

Table 2 in Framewrap for walls
http://construction.tyvek.co.uk/Tyvek_C ... mewrap.pdf

As you will see the permaebility is 3 times greater for the wall product. I couldn’t find the static head figure in the Framewrap certificate but it would be better than 300mm head compared to 1890mm min head shown in the table for Supro.

Unless you intend to move into your shed, the roofers breather membrane will be ok.

I will be interested to see how the sound insulation works out. I bought a 105dB audible alarm for my workshop and, if the doors are closed, it is not very noticeable outside and is almost inaudible at the house which is about 40m away. I have another sounder to fit externally.

Graham


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## dh7892 (14 Jul 2010)

Thanks for the info. I think I might just go for that roofer's stuff because I can get it locally and with a minimum of effort. As you say, this is a shed not a house.

As for the soundproofing, I wasn't actually planning to do anything extra to sound-proof it. I was just building the shed for warmth, structural integrity and with the hope of keeping the humidity within sensible levels.


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## dh7892 (2 Aug 2010)

Progress update:

Replaced plastic with breather membrane (thanks for pointing that out folks).

Cladding on and windows in.

I'm having a door and a half which I'm making myself to fit. I've done the main bit of the door and just have to do the small "flap" before it's sealed.


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## studders (2 Aug 2010)

Looks too good for a shed. Can I rent it from you as a Mini Bungalow?


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## dh7892 (3 Aug 2010)

I think I'll have to call it a workshop rather than a shed as you're right; it is a bit good to be called a shed.

I might rent it out when the olympics are on!

I thought that SWMBO was going to make me live in it after making her help me build it but she seems to be more interested in having a corner to work in herself now!


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## studders (3 Aug 2010)

dh7892":psdaojyf said:


> she seems to be more interested in having a corner to work in herself now!



:shock: 

Surely that's against the 'Rules' ? Where's a chap supposed to chill.. err I mean Work, if 'er indoors is allowed access to 'The Sanctuary' ?


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## Mike.C (3 Aug 2010)

studders":1qhczuss said:


> dh7892":1qhczuss said:
> 
> 
> > she seems to be more interested in having a corner to work in herself now!
> ...



I agree with Mr S, if you let her get a toe in the door, before you know it your tools and glue bottle will be sitting on little doilies, there will be flowery curtains on your windows, and within a year instead of the sound of woodworking machines, your neighbours and passer's by will hear you mutter "knit one purl one" followed by the unmistakable sound of knitting needles clicking together, while you join in with the Orpington branch of the women's knitting circle as they race to finish their world record attempt on the biggest patchwork quilt. 

So change the locks, hide the keys, and buy her a present for helping you, but don't ever give her her own corner. On the other hand be subtle or you may find that your first project is a single bed, after she changed the locks and hid the keys to your house :shock: :lol: 

Cheers

Mike


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## dh7892 (3 Aug 2010)

Normally I'd agree but (luckily for me) she's not like that!

I'm not one of these blokes that wants a shed to escape to. In fact, I'd like nothing better than to have her around when I'm down there. She did some stained glass at night school a few years ago so I thought she'd want a space to do that but, after helping with the shed she's mentioned that she'd like to try to make some simple furniture. 

I was hoping to get her interested in inlay work. I don't have the patience for it and, as my main interest is in guitar building, it would be nice to get some fancy fingerboards made.


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## Mike.C (3 Aug 2010)

dh7892":3pn2zfhk said:


> Normally I'd agree but (luckily for me) she's not like that!
> 
> I'm not one of these blokes that wants a shed to escape to. In fact, I'd like nothing better than to have her around when I'm down there. She did some stained glass at night school a few years ago so I thought she'd want a space to do that but, after helping with the shed she's mentioned that she'd like to try to make some simple furniture.
> 
> I was hoping to get her interested in inlay work. I don't have the patience for it and, as my main interest is in guitar building, it would be nice to get some fancy fingerboards made.



Good luck to you mate :wink: you have a good one there.

Cheers

Mike


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## studders (3 Aug 2010)

Yup, in all seriousness, 'tis nice when interests are mutual.


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## dh7892 (4 Aug 2010)

Indeed. At the very least, if she doesn't want to get involved, she won't nag me for disappearing down the shed for hours. 

I do still sometimes stuggle to get large purchases past her though so it's not all perfect!


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