# Pencil and paper



## Soulfly (19 Sep 2008)

Have any of you actually thought of sketching your designs using a pencil and paper rather than using a computer design programme. Iv'e looked at many of your Sketchup designs and most look lifeless, turgid and geometric.
I can scribble something in 2 minutes that would take ages of faffing about on the computer and can present it to the client. Learn to draw and your designs will have much more spirit, life and feeling and you'll never look back.


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## wizer (19 Sep 2008)

Each to their own Soufly. I don't have a natural talent for technical drawing and wasn't taught it at school. I am a computer nerd by profession, so I can work my way around Sketchup much faster and more accurately than using a pencil. We have had this debate many times. Many people either still use pencil and paper or do not make full working drawing. I don't think you can call most of DaveR's work lifeless!


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## SketchUp Guru (19 Sep 2008)

Soulfly, you should give lessons in how to win friends. 

Lesson Number 1. Trash their work. :roll: 

How about you show us some of your work before you criticize ours.

As Wiser says, not everyone is skilled at drawing with pencil and paper. Drawing with the computer makes it easier for those folks to make accurate drawings that communicate clearly.

(Thank you Wiser)

Lifeless?






Geometric?





Turgid?







I can draw with pencil and paper and do a respectable job at it but I choose to use the computer. The computer makes it faster and easier to confirm possible joinery issues and to make variations on a project.

So in 2 minutes you can scribble out a drawing. How long would it take you to draw something like this workbench? How long would it take you to calculate how much lumber you'd need to build it? I just did it. 6 seconds for an accurate calculation. (103.46 Board Feet +waste allowance)


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## wizer (19 Sep 2008)

maybe Soufly should show us his designs?


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## SketchUp Guru (19 Sep 2008)

wizer":25iv0uz9 said:


> maybe Soufly should show us his designs?



Indeed.

Maybe something like these would suit Soulfly better?















:lol:


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## mailee (19 Sep 2008)

I studied TD at school and I also used to paint in watercolours (even had an exhibition once and sold some!) I used to sketch my plans for my woodwork but it is too much trouble sketching to scale not to mention adding colours and 3d views to show customers. For my part I would much rather use Sketchup for my plans Having used Autocad and Turbocad in the past. To me it is quicker and helps me work out what looks nice and fits in to a place or niche. I will do a quick sketch with dimensions at the customers home but then place it on the computer to plan, this way it is there for future reference too. :wink:


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## tnimble (19 Sep 2008)

Nice Bench DaveR! (the other drawing are beautiful as well as usual)

By the way, I was thought technical and artistic drawing at school by hand. To get good accurate drawings you can use to get joinery and strength calculations out of or that are just nice and clean of any eraser marks etc takes a lot of planning sketching, time and effort.

I just hate ink drawings. one wrong move or hasitation and you can start all over or have a stain or smear in your, no matter how fast or much you try to clean it.

Love CAD!


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## Wanlock Dod (19 Sep 2008)

Personally, I think I'd rather use paper and pencil, but there are just so many conveniences, like, as Mailee says, getting all of your dimensions spot on so that you can see how everything will look and from a variety of different viewpoints.

Anyway, those pictures of Dave's are great  

You probably don't need much skill to do a crude diagram, but I expect that it's quite a skill to be able to do a variety of perspective drawings, all exactly to scale within a reasonable timeframe.

Cheers,

Dod


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## xraymtb (20 Sep 2008)

I would particularly say that, if you want to present it to a client, then a computer generated image like those of Dave R will go down much better than even the best paper drawing most of us could manage.

When I'm in the workshop and I need to quickly work something out - I use pencil and paper - when I'm sitting in the study deciding what to make - I use Sketch Up (with 3DS Max and Maxwell Render).


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## Anonymous (20 Sep 2008)

Soulfly":3nfwqrgn said:


> Have any of you actually thought of sketching your designs using a pencil and paper rather than using a computer design programme. Iv'e looked at many of your Sketchup designs and most look lifeless, turgid and geometric.
> I can scribble something in 2 minutes that would take ages of faffing about on the computer and can present it to the client. Learn to draw and your designs will have much more spirit, life and feeling and you'll never look back.



soul fly

I have been a design engineer for 25 years, and when I started out, the first thing we were told is that an engineer MUST be able to sketch ideas - I find it difficult to discuss any design without a pencil in my hand.

However, sketches are not representative of the finished item and CAD has a place.

personally, I think Sketchup is absolutely dreadful and it's output generally lifeless and geometric. 
However, with true CAD programmes I can render a photographic quality image using real wood as the texture in less than 3 hours for any piece of furniture. I can change any dimensions etc. in seconds - far more flexible than pen and paper.
I then build it from these drawings.

Each to their own - I always sketch it out with a pencil first


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## xraymtb (20 Sep 2008)

Tony":p83yg92f said:


> personally, I think Sketchup is absolutely dreadful and it's output generally lifeless and geometric.
> However, with true CAD programmes I can render a photographic quality image using real wood as the texture in less than 3 hours for any piece of furniture. I can change any dimensions etc. in seconds - far more flexible than pen and paper.



Sketch Up is more than capable of photoreal renderings - given the right plugins. And given the ease of use and the low cost compared to AutoCad/3DS Max/Solidworks etc. I think it allows everyone to start using their PC's to design their woodworking.


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## SketchUp Guru (20 Sep 2008)

Tony":25httg0n said:


> personally, I think Sketchup is absolutely dreadful and it's output generally lifeless and geometric.
> 
> However, with true CAD programmes I can render a photographic quality image using real wood as the texture in less than 3 hours for any piece of furniture. I



Tony, you're comparing apples to oranges; raw SketchUp output to rendered CAD output.

Would you call these "lifeless"? They aren't mine but these are SketchUp drawings.
















A complete "true CAD Programme" would cost more than many woodworkers have invested in their tools. Show us an alternative to SketchUp and Kerkythea that are as easy to learn and as inexpensive. 

Besides, most woodworkers don't need photo-realistic renders. As you point out, "I can change any dimensions etc. in seconds - far more flexible than pen and paper."




Tony":25httg0n said:


> Each to their own - I always sketch it out with a pencil first



Yes, indeed.


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## Anonymous (20 Sep 2008)

Dave

What I ws realy getting at is that Sketchup is ponderous to use and the native output shocks me it is so bad. The toolset is too limited to be called a set in my opinon.

I would rather draw in a 2D drafting package (CorelDraw has been my favourite since 1992) than SU due to its limitations.

OK it's free and that's great for people who have no draftign experience.

With plugins (free?) it is clearly giving better output, but it is still oranges when compared to a decent CAD packge, and rather old, rotten, way past the sell by date oranges at that :wink: :lol: 


I think you too are aware of SU's limitations as you use high end CAD in your day job?

PS I bought SU before it became the free google version.


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## SketchUp Guru (20 Sep 2008)

Tony, no, I don't use high end CAD in my day job. I take care of life support equipment. No need for CAD of any sort for that work.

Your comments about SketchUp indicate that you haven't given it a chance at all.

SketchUp is not "ponderous" if you learn to you it.

Give me specific limitations. Look at the images I posted and tell me where they are limited.

There are a lot of free plugins for SketchUp but your asking for free ones is rich considering you are trashing a free programme in favor of one that is far from free.

Podium is a rendering plugin for SketchUp. No, that one is not free but the exporter plugin for sketchUp to Kerkythea is free and so is Kerkythea.

I take it from your comments that you find the images I posted, both mine and those of others, "rather old" and "rotten".

Show us the native output (non-rendered) output of your CAD programme. 

No one is forcing SketchUp down anyone's throat but your comments and those of SoulFly are like telling someone they aren't doing woodworking unless they do it all with Lie-Nielsen planes and chisels.

I say again, show us something better than SketchUp and Kerkythea _at the same price._ 

I suppose I'll be banned now for my comments but so be it.

p.s. I also bought SketchUp prior to Google buying the company and releasing the free version.


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## Anonymous (20 Sep 2008)

Dave

Sorry, I thught you used CAD in day job.

have given SU a very good chance, paiud good money for it and tried the free one and it is very poor.

If you have no real experiene of mid to high end CAD then you will never understand the HUGE limitations in Sketchup and why it takes so much more effort and time to perfom operations.

And example of where SU is very poor? That ridiulous protractor. In every package I have used, one simply types in an angle, et voila, line drawn at that angle.



> I take it from your comments that you find the images I posted, both mine and those of others, "rather old" and "rotten".



??????????????????????? What?????????????????????

I ahven't said anythign about your images!!!! :roll: Read what is written Dave :wink: 

THE PROGRAM INTERFACE AND THE WAY IT WORKS ARE PONDEROUS. 

Your images are superb and I take my hat off to you, particularly as you created them despite using SU. You are clearly a very skilled and talented individual.


I wrote an article on using (real) CAD for GWW sometime back, but they decided not to print it as it was 'too advanced for our readership'. I thought it was a nice view of mid-end CAD use and I'll try to put it into a format that can be posted here for anyone interested.


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## wizer (20 Sep 2008)

As has been said. Each to their own. 

CAD scared the life out of me, sketchup, I picked up very very quickly. For my purposes, it does all I need.


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## SketchUp Guru (20 Sep 2008)

Tony":22ejir1r said:


> Dave
> 
> Sorry, I thught you used CAD in day job.
> 
> ...



I'm still waiting for your recommendation for an alternative to SketchUp at the same price. How much is it to purchase your "mid-end CAD" programme? And if folks here start using it, are you willing to help them learn to use it?

Tony, we'll never agree on this subject and it's probably best if the topic was closed. 

Cheers,

Dave


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## Slim (20 Sep 2008)

I think it is rather pointless to compare Sketchup to a high end CAD package, when they are designed to serve different purposes. Anyway, how many woodworkers do you think would be willing to fork out the best part of £1000 for Autocad or the like?

For me, Sketchup has been intuitive and easy to learn. Certainly not ponderous and I have yet to find a limitation when it comes to designing furniture. 

As for th OP's original statement/insult, I do sketch my initial ideas on paper but I always finalise the design on sketchup. It is a real advantage to be able to see the finished piece in 3D before even touching a piece of wood.

I find it incredible that you can describe Dave R's work as "lifeless, turgid and geometric". This simply isn't true.


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## Steve Maskery (22 Sep 2008)

Soulfly has gone very quiet, hasn't he? Perhaps this is just his idea of a wind-up. Never mind, it was a great opportunity to see some fantastic work.

S


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## mpooley (24 Sep 2008)

Tony
I actually would like to know what you consider a good 3d Cad program is for woodworking?

I have struggled with sketchup for a long time and im absolutely rubbish with it  

Im sure a couple of weeks training with Dave would help but he lives a bit far away :shock: 

Mike


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## Chems (24 Sep 2008)




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## woodbloke (1 Oct 2008)

Pencil and paper here I'm afeard  I tend to think something out in my bonce firstly. I've just sorted out a possible design for a fairly simple  :wink: frame for my new coffee table top and then I've grabbed whatever is to hand (in this case Post-it notes on the desk) to quickly blast out some very quick sketches. Once the idea is logged 'up-top' it's there until I rejig it or work out that it can't be made  - Rob


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## matt (1 Oct 2008)

I tend to use a computer for most things and I do use SketchUp occasionally, for very quick basic illustrations. I also use Freehand for some stuff too. I do, however, think quickly and draw/sketch just as quick - pencil and paper helps me get my ideas down.

I was brought up surrounded by hand drawn designs, illustrations, plans, and layouts - not a computer in sight. As a client I would prefer to see something hand-drawn rather than computer generated but I would accept that people use both.


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## Mr T (5 Oct 2008)

I have put some effort into trying to learn SU, even had some advice from Dave R. But I am still struggling with it. I find that my problems with SU tend to distract me from the design, which is not good for something which is meant to be a design aid.

Scrolling through the Design section of this forum it is interesting that virtually all the threads are about SU queries rather than questions about actual design ideas.

Chris


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## MikeG. (5 Oct 2008)

Mr T":a29hz10t said:


> Scrolling through the Design section of this forum it is interesting that virtually all the threads are about SU queries rather than questions about actual design ideas.
> 
> Chris



Chris,

I had noticed that!! When I joined the forum I thought/hoped this section would be full of design ideas. Never mind, hey?

Just because this thread is entitled Pencil & paper, and because of my above comment, I thought I would post my full working drawings for my next project.







This will be my commentary on factory-produced furniture with no design content, and will be made in ash. I may sand-blast the right hand end........not sure yet......and the concept is based on the idea of a standard welsh dresser made of white chocolate which has stood in the sun just a little too long. I'm looking forward to trying to find someone to do leaded lights in the "melted" upper RH door!!!!

I would never do more than this in the way of drawing before embarking on a project, although I may draw a quick sketch of a section through an awkward junction. My day job is drawing, so my hobby avoids it wherever poss.

Mike


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## wizer (5 Oct 2008)

Mr T":380r11mi said:


> Scrolling through the Design section of this forum it is interesting that virtually all the threads are about SU queries rather than questions about actual design ideas.



I was vociferous in the creation of this section and had hoped it would encourage more discussion on design as a whole. It turned out to be almost entirely SU based which is a shame. It's still valuable to those of use who like to use SU tho.


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## SketchUp Guru (6 Oct 2008)

Perhaps it's time for this forum to become exclusively for design as its title implies. I'll be happy to help in my way if that's the way it should go.

Cheers,

Dave


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## Jake (6 Oct 2008)

It's up to people to post other stuff, Dave.


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## John McM (6 Oct 2008)

Nothing wrong with pencil and paper, nothing wrong with SU. Whatever works for you. This forum is surely about sharing ideas and knowledge in a friendly helpful way. That's what counts.


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## mpooley (6 Oct 2008)

John McM":1fe4nljw said:


> Nothing wrong with pencil and paper, nothing wrong with SU. Whatever works for you. This forum is surely about sharing ideas and knowledge in a friendly helpful way. That's what counts.



Yes it would mean we would need another forum to discuss SU and this forum would probably die.

its fine as it is


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## wizer (6 Oct 2008)

yeh this forum was intended to be general design but turned out SU/CAD orientated. For some reason, that's how the users of this forum view it. Design threads usually get posted in the General Woodworking forum, mainly because there is more exposure there. Not everyone views every section of the forum.


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## SketchUp Guru (6 Oct 2008)

We could take the SU discussions elsewhere.

It doesn't matter to me either way. I'm only suggesting it as a way to possibly make this forum switch to design related topics. I'm happy to continue helping folks learn SketchUp but it doesn't have to be done on this forum. 

If the folks using the forum as a whole don't want to see SketchUp being discussed in a forum whose title indicates something else, maybe that would be the good thing.


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## wizer (6 Oct 2008)

Don't get the wrong idea Dave. The few of us that use SU appreciate having a place to discuss CAD related issues. I think it will be too hard to force members to talk in a separate area about design. In the few American forums I frequent, design seems to be a subject that people like to discuss. Here I have noticed that it's not such a hot topic. I think it's fine the way it is, no one is denied talking about design this section. Extracting SU from the mix is just detrimental.


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## SketchUp Guru (6 Oct 2008)

It makes no difference to me. It can stay here or I can set up another place to do what I do. For folks like Tony who get the dry heaves when they see a SketchUp drawing, that would sort of clean up this forum.

Maybe folks would then talk design here.

As I said, I don't really care which way it goes.


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## 13eightyfour (6 Oct 2008)

Perhaps this forum could just be renamed "Sketchup/CAD" and a new forum added for strictly "Design" ? I know im a newbie to the forum but it seems a shame to lose 1 over the other.


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## xraymtb (6 Oct 2008)

I would say splitting the forums would result in less traffic for both. As others have said, there's nothing to stop people posting about design issues rather than CAD/SU issues but users obviously want/need to discuss SU and CAD.


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## Slim (6 Oct 2008)

Surely the content of this forum shows what people want from it? If members wanted more discussion on design ideas then there would be more threads on it wouldn't there? I have in the past posted my design ideas (albeit using sketchup drawings) and have had some great feedback. On the otherhand, I sometimes like my designs to be all my own work, so will not ask opinions.

The tag line of this forum is quite clear. It is for discussing designs and sharing tips on the process. IMO it is great the way it is. I would not like the Sketchup related topics and Dave to be moved elsewhere.


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## Jake (6 Oct 2008)

13eightyfour":1fgt2mqi said:


> Perhaps this forum could just be renamed "Sketchup/CAD" and a new forum added for strictly "Design" ? I know im a newbie to the forum but it seems a shame to lose 1 over the other.



There's more than enough forum proliferation already - we'll end up like the Oz site - virtually unusable (except for the very patient, and upside down people).


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## wizer (6 Oct 2008)

Slim":2lpjvuzb said:


> Surely the content of this forum shows what people want from it? If members wanted more discussion on design ideas then there would be more threads on it wouldn't there?



Agreed


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## MikeG. (6 Oct 2008)

To underline Slim's point, 24 hours ago I posted a sketch of a design......and there hasn't been a single comment on that, whereas there has been plenty on Sketch-up. 

This is probably because that is what members now expect from this particular forum......indeed, I have noticed the odd posting of "Upcoming Projects" in the General Woodworking forum which are really just design discussions. Presumably they were posted in General Woodworking because people know that Design really means CAD in the context of this forum.

As long as people are aware of the prevailing wind when they post, the titles of the forums (fora, fori??) are pretty much irrelevant.

My penny's worth is that if you are designing for yourself then there isn't a great advantage in using a CAD program above a pencil sketch, but if you have to present your ideas to someone else and your drawing skills aren't great then SU or similar can help. Personally, I just can't be so prescriptive in my woodworking.........but can see why other's don't see it the same way. (My dad used to draw every thread on the screws in section on his own working drawings......and that by hand when that sort of thing takes a few minutes!!!!!)

Mike


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## wizer (6 Oct 2008)

Mike, apologies for not commenting on your drawing. I guess we have got caught up with this business of what constitutes design within this section of the forum. FWIW I do appreciate hand drawings. Your sketch looks great. I admire the skill involved in quickly sketching something up with measurements and then taking that sketch and breathing life into it in wood. 

Personally for me I was not taught technical drawing and I struggle with it. I like to draw everything to scale, including joinery, in SU. I can play around with a design making ten of hundred of minor changes here and there, altering dimensions, etc and never having to use an eraser or start again. 

My good friend MarkW draws out his projects with Pencil and paper that include all the detail you'd ever need, in different sectional views. His drawings look the business. But I wouldn't know where to start. It would take me much longer to use Pencil and Paper. I know that is hard to believe, but it's true. I can work a PC much easier than I can a pencil, it's just the way I have grown up. I am a NERD 

oh and I believe it's Fora


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## Shultzy (6 Oct 2008)

I agree that pencil and paper are probably quicker to design a project. Having completed the design on paper, a CAD program comes into its own by being able to produce an accurate drawing that can be adjusted quickly to reflect timber sizes available. I've found SU invaluable when designing my workbench especially when calculating the position of the drawer slides.


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## Mr T (6 Oct 2008)

hi

When I mentioned the number of SU threads on this forum I was not making a criticism of the forum. It was intended to point out that trying to get the tool to do what you want can become more of a consideration than the job you are trying to do. eg struggling to align the legs on a table SU rather than thinking about the proportions of the piece, hence people asking more questions about SU than proportion.

By the way I liked your drawing Mike, I thought "what a brilliant idea, why didn't I think of that". As you say the glass may be difficult.

Chris


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## Shultzy (6 Oct 2008)

I hate to be picky Mike but the measurement at the bottom and the top of the cupboards is the same but the drawing shows the top sits inside the bottom section.


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## matt (6 Oct 2008)

Shultzy":l0xt3a5v said:


> I hate to be picky Mike but the measurement at the bottom and the top of the cupboards is the same but the drawing shows the top sits inside the bottom section.



I thnk Mike takes a very relaxed approach to his design sketches* (sketch being the operative word). Note the "+" sign against the last "500"...

(*Hope I'm not doing Mike a disservice).


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## Shrubby (7 Oct 2008)

Sketchup is a design tool - this is the ideal place to discuss it.
Mike, I like your design (Lewis Carroll meets Dali ?)
It looks a challenge with lots of curves in 3 dimensions ! Entirely do-able in a small workshop though - look at some Art nouveau pieces (Guimard ,van de Velde etc)
Matt


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## xraymtb (7 Oct 2008)

Shultzy":12u9zzt6 said:


> I agree that pencil and paper are probably quicker to design a project. Having completed the design on paper, a CAD program comes into its own by being able to produce an accurate drawing that can be adjusted quickly to reflect timber sizes available. I've found SU invaluable when designing my workbench especially when calculating the position of the drawer slides.



For me, pencil and paper is the quickest way to quickly get an idea out of my head and into a format that I won't forget. I also find it easier to deal with organic shapes and curves (although a lot of my design involves square, chunkier furniture).

Where SU/CAD comes in, for me, is in identifying dimensions, working out joinery and seeing how a finished piece will look in an environment. 

An unfinished example would be...







When it is finally finished, I can see just how a piece will look in that environment much better than I could with pencil and paper.


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## MikeG. (7 Oct 2008)

Shultzy,

I like picky, don't worry!!!

The upper over-all dimension is of the complete (pre-melting) square dresser. The lower is, as Matt suggests, 500+ to allow for a spillage of melted wood (!!!.........doesn't that sound fun?). Dimensions with a piece like this are only important on the square half (left hand side) and the right hand half will go where it goes once I see where the ash comes out of the formers after steaming.

I wouldn't do anything much more than this sketch with a traditional piece of furniture. Matt is dead right........I take a very loose approach.

Incidentally, if anyone breathes a word of this to my wife the project will be binned!!! She is expecting a traditional Welsh dresser, albeit in ash. I wont be starting this one for a while yet.........

Shrubby, I'll have a look at your references.

Mike


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## SketchUp Guru (7 Oct 2008)

wizer":ajrxmaf8 said:


> In the few American forums I frequent, design seems to be a subject that people like to discuss. Here I have noticed that it's not such a hot topic.



I guess you're right.


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## Chris Knight (8 Oct 2008)

When the Design forum was set up, it was always envisaged that people would use it for discussing both Sketchup/CAD and designs per se. Forum proliferation is not a good thing in the eyes of the admin/mods here because the resulting fragmentation is seen as detrimental to both the reading of posts and the moderation/upkeep of the place.

It would help if people were a bit more thoughtful in their choice of thread titles and better disciplined at keeping on topic - just consider the topics already covered in this one thread!

If folk were simply to preface Sketchup thread titles with say "SU" and general design questions with say "GD" it could help others select what they want to read. If comments are sought on a design then say so, thus Mike Garnham could have written "GD - Dali cabinet - comments requested" in a _separate thread!_


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## MikeG. (8 Oct 2008)

I consider my knuckles gently rapped! I wont do it again, sir, honest. It wasn't me anyway.........a big boy did it and ran away.........  

It just seemed that a thread with a title like Pencil and Paper ought to have something in pencil on paper within it!!

Mike


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## wizer (8 Oct 2008)

I don't think it's a case of wrist slapping Mike. Chris was just pointing out that sometimes users don't think about the finer organisational details of a forum when they post. I am guilty of it, sometimes you just want to post and don't consider how that thread will show up in a search. Sometimes threads wonder off topic, just like a conversation in the pub. There's no solution. It's just the norm.



Dave R":2pcri1mo said:


> wizer":2pcri1mo said:
> 
> 
> > In the few American forums I frequent, design seems to be a subject that people like to discuss. Here I have noticed that it's not such a hot topic.
> ...



Yeh, strange isn't it. I was listening to WoodTalkOnline today and the way Americans look at the hobby is completely different. I think that's why PopWood and FWW are considered better publications. I like it, but most of us Brits are stuck in our ways.


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## MikeG. (8 Oct 2008)

Tom,

Without wishing to take this thread even further off topic...........you say that Americans look at the hobby quite differently from us. In what way?

Mike


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## wizer (9 Oct 2008)

It's hard to explain (for me). For starters, there are a lot more Americans doing woodwork than there are Brits. It seems like most blokes outside the big cities have a workshop of some sort. Whereas here, I don't know any woodworkers outside these forums. With a much bigger, open community, the whole feel of their hobby seems to take a different angle. They seem to be a little more philosophical about it. There also seems to be a renaissance in the US woodworking market. Whereas here, I'd say it was a little slower. I am a big fan of The Wood Whisperer, which I'm sure you'll find bizarre Mike. It's an online woodworking show/blog. If you have some time, go and watch a few episodes. It's not to everyone's taste. Maybe it's because I grew up watching American films and TV shows.


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## MikeG. (9 Oct 2008)

I've watched the Wood Whisperer a bit.......helpful with a couple of things, particularly when I first got my bandsaw.

The problem with all American woodworking film/ video is that they all seem to have workshops the size of Texas, and every piece of machinery ever invented......and I can't ever get to see them use a hand-tool. I'm sure they must, but they don't seem to show it very often!

Mike


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## wizer (9 Oct 2008)

Yes I think that's it. The whole scene, including their vast workshops, is bigger.

There is a hand tool scene over there (Bridge City, Lie Nielson, Veritas, Blum, Hock etc). But we tend to see the power tools more.

Maybe it's just the they are a bunch of johnny foreigners, what what. :wink:


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## tnimble (9 Oct 2008)

Not wanting to get further off topic. But I also like the wood whisperer and WTO a lot (I find MBWSa bit uninteresting lately) the only greaf I have with it is that the episode frequency is very low (he posted a lot more in te beginning). His life webcam in the shop is a great idea if not only the're wan't that time difference.

I do see relatively a lot of hand tool usage which seems to grow since resently. Also the network shows feature a lot of handtool usage. That is not only limited to Roy Underhill but also David Marks and Scott Philips use handootls (the older AWS seasons seem to have more hand tooluage though) I've never seen Norm as I'm informed he uses power tools exclusively. I only have seen a few episodes of the AWS variant the Britisch Woodshop with that balt guy, he seems to be power tools only.


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## Lord Nibbo (9 Oct 2008)

tnimble":1kh7v3eh said:


> I've never seen Norm as I'm informed he uses power tools exclusively.



Well 99% of the time but not exclusively. I've seen him pick up a block plane once or twice and I've seen him with a hammer in his hand :lol: 

and he's got one of these hanging up in his workshop




:lol:


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## tnimble (9 Oct 2008)

:lol: Nice one


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## SketchUp Guru (9 Oct 2008)

I'm saving for the Chevy 283 V-8 powered version.


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