# Keep your eyes open on FleaBay!



## jimi43 (1 Nov 2010)

Bootfairs being all but gone I was suffering from withdrawal symptoms last weekend and decided to hit FleaBay with an uncharacteristic level of scrutiny.

There was a job lot of tools on an auction which failed to sell....







I contacted the seller as I was intrigued by the middle plane in this picture...







So an offer was made an accepted and she came today....






The eagle-eyed amongst you will have their knowledge confirmed with a wee close-up...






 

It is however not a Norris...it is a Tyzak...a VERY old Tyzack with a Norris iron...






So a bit of research is needed here!

The gentleman that owned this clearly used her and loved her as it has a beautiful base to protect the edge...






All in all...a nice find!






I'm getting quite a collection of infills now...not a slope of COURSE!!  :wink: 

Jim


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## GazPal (1 Nov 2010)

You've already slid and it's a very nasty habit you're developing my friend. :lol: 

My grandafther used to keep his infill planes (We used to call them iron clads) shod in the same manner for storage. Very nice find and by a very good maker. :wink:


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## jimi43 (1 Nov 2010)

HA! Gary...I have stabilisers!!! They are called "short of money" wheels!

I just did a tiny bit of research on Google and found this...from a Tyzack 1908 catalogue...

Link to Tyzack 1908 catalogue page


Looks like Tyzack sold Norris No.245s under their own badge (check out the little mark on the back bottom of the soles...

1892-1905 at 340 Old Street....

I'm happy now!

This is fun!


Jim


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## GazPal (1 Nov 2010)

I'd have been happy before finding that out and would be on cloud nine in seventh heaven afterwards. It's now an even better very nice result. :wink: 

I'm going to have to start going to boot fares and pay more close attention to Flea-Bay from now on. I wish I'd never let my cousin "inherit" our grandad's planes now. lol


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## Pvt_Ryan (1 Nov 2010)

you have some luck!!


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## stoatyboy (1 Nov 2010)

that's it I can control myself no longer - you are a spawney get!

how do you keep coming up with this amazing stuff??

I can only console myself with the wonderful way you bring them back to life - well done


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## woodbloke (1 Nov 2010)

jimi43":v6ysfrxk said:


> I just did a tiny bit of research on Google and found this...from a Tyzack 1908 catalogue...
> 
> Link to Tyzack 1908 catalogue page
> 
> ...



Interestingly, I have exactly the same model of the 'Ultimate Reform Plane' (bottom left hand corner) Mine is a little more recent though...cost me £12 from PFT :wink: - Rob


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## Richard T (1 Nov 2010)

Very well spotted. How that one missed the ebay collectors I don't know. 
It's nearly as nice as the one I got yesterday (achm) :evil: 
Can't tell quite from the photo but does that lever screw have square - cut thread? Would be the first elderly one I've seen if so.


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## LuptonM (1 Nov 2010)

OMFG!!!! Not again....Your making me feel depressed


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## AndyT (1 Nov 2010)

Now now Jim, don't you realise that you missed the highly valuable and rare chisels with the unique 'spatter pattern' handles, the mallet with the sought after bifurcated handle, the Roman brick bolster....

Oh all right, you're a jammy sod that we're all jealous of!

Seriously though, well spotted. I'm sure you'll give it a very good home. Just one favour to ask - can you let us all know when you are next going on holiday - as there is no point scouring ebay for any more bargains if you're there as well!


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## Ironballs (1 Nov 2010)

I don't think the ebay collectors did miss that one :wink: 

Beware that slope.... you'll be needing a nice cabinet for that collection


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## toolsntat (2 Nov 2010)

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :wink: :roll: 

So did you have the lot or just this little "peach"?
Cos them wing compasses look well worthy of harvesting :lol: 

Andy


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## jimi43 (2 Nov 2010)

I am so sorry to have made so many people jealous..... 8) I was as surprised as you all when I read the name on the iron!

I opened the package and the last Jiffy bag and felt inside to see if I was right about an infill...not a woody...I then felt for the lever cap and the screw...then my impatience got the better of me...the Norris London was indeed a shock!

Reading the Tyzack name and then the catalogue was indeed the icing on the cake. I was going to work for eight hours so it has been a real tease sitting here until I could get back and tart it up a bit....

Then came the realisation that for the first time I had in my hands an example that had been looked after for over a hundred years and that I should be VERY careful in the restoration....






The key cleaning agent again was the superb CORRO DIP...which really came into its own on the rust and grime alike...especially the really thick iron and cap...











I just wanted clean - not polished to death...and CORRO DIP leaves the patina without all the grime and rust.

I then hit the rosewood with a few hours of elbow grease and pure beeswax...






That's about as far as I am going with this baby...apart from further reseach online....any assistance gratefully received.

I think the dates are right 1892 to 1905 because of the address and lack of "and sons"....it doesn't have an adjuster so it's not an "A" Norris...it looks like a Tyzack No.245 from the catalogue but earlier editions might help out here...and finally...yes Richard...it is a square thread...but not the later Norris design....rather more "Art Nouveau" than "Art Deco"....

There are no marks on the back of the lever cap but there is a "4" on the back of the Norris London iron.

No owner stamps either...

Tomorrow the iron gets a true workout on some hardwood...stay tuned!

As for the rest of the lot...someone paid another £60 for something or other...I fail to see what unless it was the Stanley...it's quite an old one...but the compasses Andy...I already have exactly the same ones...and to be honest...once my target was selected it was really fingers crossed and pray after that...took my mind off of most other things! :wink: 

Jim


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## bugbear (2 Nov 2010)

Pvt_Ryan":2mju8isn said:


> you have some luck!!



To quote a famous golfer "The more I practice, the luckier I get".

BugBear


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## jimi43 (2 Nov 2010)

Ironballs":1ttqmge2 said:


> I don't think the ebay collectors did miss that one :wink:
> 
> Beware that slope.... you'll be needing a nice cabinet for that collection



I don't know about a cabinet...I need a bleedin' bigger lump of Yew!!!






The research continued today...a few emails off to experts to get some grasp as to the age and model of the little Norris...

I also took her for a tune-up on the 3M this afternoon...honed the iron...boy is that lovely metal and took an edge effortlessly on blue then green then grey....

The shavings on beech, teak and cherry were like gossamer...I will probably have to regrind it though as it is not good at the moment...nice but not good enough. I am rubbish*ing myself even going anywhere near the grinder though! 

Any suggestions/words of confidence greatly received!

Jim


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## GazPal (3 Nov 2010)

You could always send it to me to fettle and I'll allow it to send you cards at Christmas, Easter and on birthdays. :wink: 

At this rate you'll need a substantially longer, thicker and wider piece of Yew in order to take the extra weight and additions to the group. 

Which part of the plane do you need to grind? I'd probably check for centre of blade and adjust the edge for square if necessary, but would think it should be fine otherwise.


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## jimi43 (3 Nov 2010)

GazPal":2wkhb3k9 said:


> You could always send it to me to fettle and I'll allow it to send you cards at Christmas, Easter and on birthdays. :wink:
> 
> At this rate you'll need a substantially longer, thicker and wider piece of Yew in order to take the extra weight and additions to the group.
> 
> Which part of the plane do you need to grind? I'd probably check for centre of blade and adjust the edge for square if necessary, but would think it should be fine otherwise.



HA! Yeh...right! I could put the card next to the ones from my pet dolphin and whale...they escaped from the pond years ago!!  

I need to grind the iron...the bevel is distinctly convex and honing will eventually be a problem....






From the side you can clearly see the convex nature of the existing bevel....






I'm being a chicken really as I am perfectly capable of grinding a convex bevel on my Creusen and have done many irons in the past...it's just the thought of a real Norris iron and screwing it up that is worrying me!


  

Should I go for the 25/30 standard formula do you think?

Jim


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## GazPal (3 Nov 2010)

I'd test drive 25/30 and see how she handles. The blade should be perfectly fine as long as it's kept cool when ground and Norris blades do take a good edge. :wink: 

Flipper and Cuddles are right here in my pond, so the plane wouldn't feel at all out of place. :lol: Just be sure to send a crate of Sardine for the mammals and all should be well til Christmas card time. :lol:


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## jimi43 (3 Nov 2010)

Hi Gary

I want to make sure that I don't get it rusty so will pass on Flipper and Cuddles being the guardians for now! :wink: 8) 

Anyway.......

I think I should be less nervous but its like walking a line. On the ground it's easy but up high you are likely to fall off! But I did it...phew!






I think I need more hairs on my arm now!

Off to try some proper target!

Later mate....

Jim


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## jimi43 (3 Nov 2010)

Well that worked alright....lots of tests...jarrah, cherry, american walnut and beech and they all shave beautifully...






I am not surprised however that soon after this was made they brought out the Norris adjuster...it's a blinkin' nightmare to adjust...but I got there...






That's enough for the day!

Jim


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## GazPal (4 Nov 2010)

Flipper and Cuddles will be disappointed, but we're taking them to the lagoon today, so they should cheer up no end. :lol: 

Now there are two things I'm envious of. Your newly found Tyzack AND the quality of your photography. Give me a good quality camera and I'm lost and still producing pictures that resemble the works of L.S. Lowry. 

Great sharpening results Jim. :wink: Adjustment-wise, without adjusters they can be a bit of a bear at times until you've gotten into the swing of things, but have you tried the paper trick by placing a suitably thin sheet of paper on the bench beneath the mouth of the plane as you allow the blade to make contact with the bench during adjustment?


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## bugbear (4 Nov 2010)

jimi43":19cmrliy said:


> I need to grind the iron...the bevel is distinctly convex and honing will eventually be a problem....









NNNNNOOOOOoooooo !

BugBear


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## jimi43 (4 Nov 2010)

bugbear":13b5ryqw said:


> jimi43":13b5ryqw said:
> 
> 
> > I need to grind the iron...the bevel is distinctly convex and honing will eventually be a problem....
> ...



:?:


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## toolsntat (9 Nov 2010)

jimi43":3dt5bmzo said:


> I am not surprised however that soon after this was made they brought out the Norris adjuster...it's a blinkin' nightmare to adjust...but I got there...Jim



Looking good Jim but as for the adjuster as far as the ones I have its far easier to tap adjust :shock: 
Reason being you need to slack off the lever to adjust efficiently and then when tightened up enough to stop blade movement it tends to give a bit more bite :roll: It does work but takes time to get it right  

Andy


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## jimi43 (9 Nov 2010)

toolsntat":3ghwt6hf said:


> jimi43":3ghwt6hf said:
> 
> 
> > I am not surprised however that soon after this was made they brought out the Norris adjuster...it's a blinkin' nightmare to adjust...but I got there...Jim
> ...



I think I have the hang of it now Andy...this lever cap tightens far more efficiently than the other lever cap infills that I have. I found by backing it off a tad the knock technique worked fine...

Just a matter of getting used to it really.

I was given my first wood lathe over the weekend (don't ask!) so I might be able to do some proper turning now and restore my old Taylor to metal again...Then the next project is an adjustment mallet for this little darling...

I have decided to keep her (him) and call him "Wee Norris" to go with "Jock", "Little Isaac", "Ian" and "Crusoe" (the shoulder plane).

I suppose this puts me firmly in the sad "collector" category!  8) 

Jim


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## GazPal (10 Nov 2010)

I've been pondering the idea of getting into a little lathe work during the winter, as one of my aunts has my uncle's old woodworking lathe and tools stashed away in her garage gathering dust. He was a toolmaker by trade and avid wood turner during his free time. I've been offered free pickings of what's there (I'd pay anyway), but Mrs P keeps scotching the idea on the grounds of me using the lathe in one corner of our lounge while she's watching her soaps.  

Some wives have no patience or understanding, although mine's done well to put up with me for over 27yrs. :lol:

--------

I've always wondered at which point does someone switch from being an enthusiast and onto becoming a collector? I think I must have gathered somewhere near 25 Record planes over the years and a few more by inheritance, but never - until just now - thought I might be a collector.

Your planes look great Jim. :wink: I definitely fancy having a dabble at perhaps making an infill smoothing plane at some point.


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## Benchwayze (11 Nov 2010)

No, not a slope Jim. More a vertical drop. :lol: 

John :wink:


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## jimi43 (12 Nov 2010)

Benchwayze":111b3sfh said:


> No, not a slope Jim. More a vertical drop. :lol:
> 
> John :wink:



True John....very true indeed!  

But...I did get my parachute from Lidl! 8) :wink: 

Jim


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## jimi43 (20 Nov 2010)

Another update....

Just received an email back from Lee at Best Things in the USA and his reply clears all the mystery up...



> Hi Jim,
> 
> I generally don't give free advice, but today is one of those rare days when I am feeling nice. ;-) Your plane was made by Slater. Nothing to do with the #14 Norris pictured in the catalogue. It should have a Marples iron. The Norris blade that is in it is worth nearly what the plane is worth.
> 
> ...



...armed with this information....I found this (click picture)...






....and this (click picture):





So...I just happen to know where there is a nice Marples iron of this vintage....

Anyone want to buy a good quality iron from someone called "Norris"?!

(only kidding! I'm keeping that in there too!)

So...another mystery cleared up this evening...amazing what you learn over the years with the help of other kind persons!

Nite guys and gals....

Jim


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## jimi43 (26 Nov 2010)

albertrong":3l70ryvs said:


> Are you a carpenter?, my fater has the tools before. i have been seen it when i was young. i am glad to see them again.



Hi albertrong....

I am not sure what you would define me as...I would call myself a wood lover and with that....a keen researcher of old woodworking tools.

I love bringing these pieces of history back from the dead...and I hope that I achieve this. 

I am glad that by doing so I bring back fond memories of your father using these tools...that has made me very happy.

Thank you my friend

Jim


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## Vann (1 Nov 2012)

jimi43":mcjjb17n said:


> Just received an email back from Lee at Best Things in the USA and his reply clears all the mystery up...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Jimi,

I think I've found its brother (not indentical twin)



http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =529342200

The main casting, lever-cap and cap-iron look the same. This one was listed as a _W. Marples of Sheffield_ with a _Robert Sorby Warranted cast steel Blade_ The rear infill is certainly different. Is there a gap in the rear of the casting on yours, where a handle might be fitted for a different model?

So I guess this one was made for Marples by Slater in the same way yours was made for Tyzack. I can't imagine Marples selling "house brand" planes with some else's irons, so the R Sorby is probably a replacement. I can't decide from the photo whether it's parallel or not.

The link to the Tyzack cattledog in this thread seems to have been lost.

Cheers, Vann.

edit: found the Tyzack link.


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## richarnold (1 Nov 2012)

Hi Jim That looks like a great plane. I have to say though I think the original maker may well have been Henry Slater of Clerckenwell. If so there may be a very small letter M stamped into the rear lower edge of the casting. know one seems sure what this stands for, but some say it might be for malleable, or perhaps Marples. Slater seems to have made planes for lots of other manufacturers including Tyzack, Moseley, and Marples. The lever cap, and screw are the big giveaway on Slaters. The are so distinctive.

What a silly person I am. I have just noticed that this is an old post, and the issue has already been well discussed. sorry about that Jim


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## jimi43 (1 Nov 2012)

richarnold":ljgh66lv said:


> Hi Jim That looks like a great plane. I have to say though I think the original maker may well have been Henry Slater of Cerckenwell. If so there may be a very small letter M stamped into the rear lower edge of the casting. Knowone seem sure what this stands for, but some say it might be for malleable, or perhaps Marples. Slater seems to have made planes for lots of other manufacturers including Tysack, Moseley, and Marples. The lever cap, and screw are the big givaway on Slaters. The are so distincktive



Brilliant Vann! See...this makes up for that No 2 Yes 3 Stanley you accidentally bought the other day! :mrgreen: 

Indeed Richard.....a page or so back that came out. This being a very old thread resurrected by Vann for very good reason, I will have to go have another look at the body to see if it is indeed hiding an M somewhere. I know my other rebate plane has one...so that solves that problem!....







Cheers!

Jim


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## Vann (1 Nov 2012)

jimi43":3pdxhat9 said:


> Brilliant Vann! See...this makes up for that No 2 Yes 3 Stanley you accidentally bought the other day! :mrgreen:


Yes, after that episode, I'm wondering what will go wrong with this one. Maybe when I open the parcel it'll be a beaten up old woodie...but I don't think even I could get the photo that wrong :shock: #-o :roll: :wink: 

Cheers, Vann.


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## Vann (13 Nov 2012)

It arrived last Wednesday. It’s in very good condition with virtually no surface rust. The rear handle is secure and rock steady. It looks to be painted/stained rather than rosewood like the rear infill. The front “infil” is missing – although it’s not really an infil at all as the interior, up to the height of the sides, has a metal infil of sorts. It looks like the bun was screwed in place on top.



The lever cap is stamped W. MARPLES/& SONS/SHEFFIELD with the Marples ‘clover’ to the right of the stamp.



The cap iron is stamped WM MARPLES/AND SONS (again with the Marples ‘clover’, this time above the text) and is 2⅛” wide.



The cutting iron is a laminated parallel ROBT SORBY/WARRENTED/CAST STEEL iron 


but only 2” wide. I’ve got a respectable 2⅛” wide Marples iron, but it’s tapered so that’s probably not suitable. The parallel iron’s a touch under 4mm thick. I suppose I could fit a nice thick, parallel, Lie-Nielsen iron, or a thinner Quangsheng W1 iron, but somehow – the plane being a British – I'm considering a 3.3m thick Clifton iron (with the width machined down to 2⅛”).

There's a little screw at the front


...and when unscrewed the front iron infill lifts out to reveal some ancient shavings and two steel 8g ¾" CSK woodscrews - which must have once held the front bun in place.

Jimi, could you help me with some dimensions? Going by that Tyzack catalogue, these planes come in (at least) three widths: 2”, 2⅛” and 2¼”. Mine takes a 2⅛” blade. The width is 63mm and the length of the sole is 190mm (excuse the mix of metric and imperial). Is yours the same size? If so, how high is the front bun (same height as the rear infill?), and roughly what radius along the leading edge and across the back edge of the bun?

Thanks in anticipation.

Cheers, Vann


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## Richard T (13 Nov 2012)

Hi Vann,

Darryl Huchinson makes a 2 -1/8", 3/16" thick parallel iron (or at least he does according to this)

http://www.toolbazaar.co.uk/Spares.asp (scroll down to first item)


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## jimi43 (13 Nov 2012)

Your thread and indeed your plane is fascinating in that it opened up a bit of history for me that would otherwise have been hidden forever. I wouldn't have attempted it at the time but I am more confident now with these things and so I bit the bullet and removed the screw (quite easily as it happens) with a suitable screwdriver (very important!)

Your "naked chassis", exposed as it is, gives us insight into the making of these planes as kits for the workman to buy and finish themselves.

They were obviously sold by the big players...almost certainly made by Slater and prove to be remarkably clever in design.

The problem with the front bun is the complexity of fixing an infill which is the correct shape...fits the recess tightly and slopes towards the mouth accurately whilst leaving enough over at the correct point to overstuff. This looks simple on paper but is really not easy to get right at all.

The use of a sub-frame...screwed at the front and from below to the infill makes this task a walk in the park.

So....some of your questions and further evidence of our plane's similarity....

The height of the bun on mine is 1/4" above the line drawn from the flat of the rear infill:






The back of the bun follows exactly the line of the metal section....






...the radius of the front follows the line of the radius of the metal sole...which is on mine a 4" circle....






(note yet another use for Goodman's 3rd Edition! 8) )

I had the same fine dust from a century of planing below the infill...






...which would indicate quite a tight but not perfect fit..

My internal width is 2 1/16" which with 1/32" lateral adjustment room would mean mine would have been sold as a 2" model.

The iron is indeed 2"....you need one of these....






....if you want a British manufacture in keeping with the city of the sole...London :mrgreen: 

Thanks for posting this thread...without which I would never have delved into the inner workings of these planes...

Hope this helps and keep us posted on the restoration. I would personally keep it as original as possible. Thry and get an old piece of infill stock and "age" it so it matches the rear. If you need any tips let me know.

Cheers mate

Jim


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## AndyT (13 Nov 2012)

Brilliant! 

What a superb example of the benefit of talking about these things on-line - contributions from UK, US and NZ, converging onto a useful detail of how these planes were built and can be restored, which I have never seen documented anywhere else.


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## Vann (13 Nov 2012)

jimi43":241112e6 said:


> The iron is indeed 2"....you need one of these....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well seeing as they came in three widths, mine, being 2⅛" wide, is the 'Midi' size. That iron of yours, being only 2" wide must be a Norris Minor...

I'll get me coat... :mrgreen: 

Actually it's well past bedtime - so goodnight. But yes I'll keep you/this thread posted on any progress. Thank you for your help and comments.

Cheers, Vann.


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## jimi43 (14 Nov 2012)

Vann":k5ovr8d0 said:


> .................Well seeing as they came in three widths, mine, being 2⅛" wide, is the 'Midi' size. That iron of yours, being only 2" wide must be a Norris Minor...
> 
> I'll get me coat... :mrgreen:
> 
> ...



Oh deary deary me....and I thought I was bad with my puns!

Actually! That's rather clever! =D> 

Jim


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## Vann (14 Nov 2012)

jimi43":2kopw5qa said:


> Oh deary deary me....and I thought I was bad with my puns!


I used to be normal once. Then I listened to "I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again" and the quality of my puns went downhill fast.

Cheers, Vann


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