# What do folk think about this table ?



## RogerS (4 Aug 2020)

https://www.heals.com/cross-fixed-dining-tables.html


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## billw (4 Aug 2020)

Simple clean design. But 1700-2400 quid......jeez.


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## Just4Fun (4 Aug 2020)

How practical is it? It looks like people sitting at the table to eat might be constantly kicking the legs.


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## doctor Bob (4 Aug 2020)

billw":2xcim482 said:


> Simple clean design. But 1700-2400 quid......jeez.



Interesting, you have obviously worked out your price, I'd be interested to see how many hours work have you allowed, what materials you allowed for and what you would charge.


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## AndyT (4 Aug 2020)

I think it's desperately trying to look different, at the expense of sound construction. The splayed legs are presumably strong enough to support four people sitting round it eating, maybe with their elbows leaning on it, but what about when someone stands on it to put the Christmas decorations up? I'd expect an expensive fracture.


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## doctor Bob (4 Aug 2020)

AndyT":3a5m4xc6 said:


> I'd expect an expensive fracture.



If it was made buy ikea yes but I suspect the design and costs cover it being made properly. Then others think it's expensive.


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## AndyT (4 Aug 2020)

Whatever the price, there's not much wood at that angled joint. 
I wouldn't trust it to take my weight, but lots of people don't think about construction principles, and some of them are heavier than me.


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## doctor Bob (4 Aug 2020)

AndyT":3jq7ln7f said:


> Whatever the price, there's not much wood at that angled joint.
> I wouldn't trust it to take my weight, but lots of people don't think about construction principles, and some of them are heavier than me.



Surely they is an element of stupidity involved if a for example a big fella decides to stand / dance on a table. Not all furniture is designed to be stood on, nor should it be
If I paid £1800 for a table I'd be mightily f**ked off if you or anyone else stood on it. So sorry Andy, can you ignore that dinner party invite when it arrives ..............


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## billw (4 Aug 2020)

doctor Bob":2huslq3h said:


> billw":2huslq3h said:
> 
> 
> > Simple clean design. But 1700-2400 quid......jeez.
> ...



Would I pay that much for a table made by a craftsman in the UK who I was dealing directly with? Most probably. 

Would I pay that much for that table given it's got VAT and Heal's retail mark-up, plus paying for the privilege of a brand I've never heard of and a designer I've never heard of? Most probably not.

Is there really an additional 700 quid of timber in a walnut version versus the oak one? Especially since the top is veneered.


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## El Barto (4 Aug 2020)

It's really interesting and it's almost a thing of beauty but it's not quite there... the angle, height and positioning of the legs really irks me. What a shame.

And practically speaking the joints don't look very convincing...

It's expensive for what it is - a machine made table, but there you go.


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## doctor Bob (4 Aug 2020)

billw":1mruam5p said:


> doctor Bob":1mruam5p said:
> 
> 
> > billw":1mruam5p said:
> ...



So a maker charging vat is wrong or bad or ripping people off, I don't get that point.
Maybe he is selling the oak one cheap :lol:


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## doctor Bob (4 Aug 2020)

El Barto":2cg5cev9 said:


> And practically speaking the joints don't look very convincing...



How are they done?


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## Blackswanwood (4 Aug 2020)

I quite like it but not to the extent of paying that price for it. Good luck to the designer and maker ... I hope they are getting their fair share of the eventual asking price. Undoubtedly there will be people who feel it is worth the price. Heals always seemed to be busy in the olden days when we could go out!


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## El Barto (4 Aug 2020)

doctor Bob":mifmaay8 said:


> El Barto":mifmaay8 said:
> 
> 
> > And practically speaking the joints don't look very convincing...
> ...



Don't know, but surely you can agree they look like weak spots, especially given the slack angle of the legs and relative lack of meat around the joint.


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## doctor Bob (4 Aug 2020)

El Barto":duqy7bcs said:


> doctor Bob":duqy7bcs said:
> 
> 
> > El Barto":duqy7bcs said:
> ...



But weak in relation to what, like I said earlier, tables should *not* be deisned with the aim a family can dance on them. They should be designed for purpose, to support a meal and a few elbows and some more and that's it.
A company isn't going to sell something where they need to keep repairing or replacing, so they aren't breaking willy nilly I assume.
I once had someone complain a cabinet door had fallen off, when asked what had happened theyu told me they were standing on it changing a light bulb :shock:


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## MikeG. (4 Aug 2020)

Well I've seen lots of tables I like less than this one. I suspect you could laminate those legs such that they were quite strong. I was much more frightened for Steve Maskery's proposed table leg structure than I am for this one. I also know that if I made such a table for sale that I'd want at least what they are asking for it, albeit I don't do veneering so mine would be solid construction. In fact, thinking about it, if they're veneered then the bend in the legs is simply a case of cutting it out of a sheet of ply, isn't it, so the kink in the legs is likely to be plenty strong enough. Is the design wonderful?......well, not for me, but neither is it dreadful.


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## sunnybob (4 Aug 2020)

FUGLY
Goes well with that chair Steve posted a while back :roll: :roll:


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## Artiglio (4 Aug 2020)

Catches my eye , but soon looks “not quite right”.


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## RogerS (4 Aug 2020)

billw":2ra5viaj said:


> Simple clean design. But 1700-2400 quid......jeez.



Really ? Take off the VAT. Take off the (probably) 50% markup that Heal's make. Could you make it for £500 ?


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## RogerS (4 Aug 2020)

MikeG.":2f0pd5m8 said:


> Well I've seen lots of tables I like less than this one. I suspect you could laminate those legs such that they were quite strong. I was much more frightened for Steve Maskery's proposed table leg structure than I am for this one. I also know that if I made such a table for sale that I'd want at least what they are asking for it, albeit I don't do veneering so mine would be solid construction. In fact, thinking about it, if they're veneered then the bend in the legs is simply a case of cutting it out of a sheet of ply, isn't it, so the kink in the legs is likely to be plenty strong enough. Is the design wonderful?......well, not for me, but neither is it dreadful.



It's only the top that is veneered.


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## NickM (4 Aug 2020)

I don’t particularly like the design (although I can see it wild great in the right kitchen/dining room), but I don’t think that price is at all outrageous.

The main things I’ve learned since I started woodworking as a hobby Is how much materials cost and, in particular, how much time it takes to make things (even using machines). It’s given me a completely different perspective on quotes I have had in the past for the odd cabinet, book case etc.


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## Jake (4 Aug 2020)

I'll bet there is metal in there.

Saw a documentary on Heals and designers once, I think I recall they take 70%. (edit, that was smaller ticket stuff, ceramics and lighting etc)


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## RogerS (5 Aug 2020)

Jake":1q1fjlz3 said:


> I'll bet there is metal in there.



A screw or two, maybe ?


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## Chris152 (5 Aug 2020)

I don't dislike the design, and agree with Drbob about the Christmas decs test. But what I think makes the table look very odd is the photo - someone seems to have worked very hard to make it look as if it has just two legs on the floor rather than four. They've even got rid of the shadows of the legs that have been hidden/ removed from the view, which makes it appear very odd. Maybe seeing it in reality would be different.


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## Daniel2 (5 Aug 2020)

Should have it's SWL very clearly legible on the top (homer) 
To my eye, it's those leg joints that are all wrong. 
Because, mechanically, they are wrong, it makes the table ugly,
to me.
But, as with many things, someone else may well love it.
I think it's just desperately trying to be clever, and it doesn't work.

ATB,
Daniel


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## RogerS (5 Aug 2020)

This is a better picture, I think.


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## Doug B (5 Aug 2020)

Interestingly looking at both the grain direction & the apparent line of the joints the back leg joint is vertical & horizontal in the front leg which would suggest to me the legs are of a laminated construction with a veneer on the top face to hide the laminations, a common enough construction technique these days which would result in a strong leg.

Price doesn’t really come into it for me, it’s worth what someone will pay for it & as I’d never be in the market it’s irrelevant though I’d probably want around that figure to make one as a one of.


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## Sgian Dubh (5 Aug 2020)

I find it interesting that there are quite a number of negative comments concerning the legs and the seeming weakness in their cantilevered form. I suspect this form is deliberately chosen for both practical seating requirements, although I'm not quite convinced this requirements is fully satisfied, and also to present that visual strength question. 

My first thought was that it reminded me of the similar structural question marks presented by pedestal tables that link to the floor via three or four legs emerging from near the bottom of the pedestal at something like 95 to maybe 110 degrees from the central vertical plane of the pedestal. Solutions were found for the leg to pedestal joint via everything from sliding dovetails to M&Ts to dowels, plus screwed on metal spoke affairs fixed to the underside - some of those structural arrangements work better than others.

The Hilton design in question here could involve an angled metal plate and epoxy resin where the plate is morticed into both the vertical wood part and into the top of the splayed foot element. That's just a first thought on my part, and I could be well off course and there's another solution using only wood. 

Still, the complaint voiced by some about the potential weakness caused by this cantilevered design strikes me as a bit odd because, as I've illustrated, the pedestal table style falls into a similar category, and yet somehow thousands of this style have been produced over the centuries. Would anyone expect that style to survive gross abuse? I suspect not, and I've seen and repaired quite a few pedestal tables where the leg to pedestal interface had failed or was failing. It wouldn't really surprise me to find similar problems developing over time with the Hilton design. In both cases (table styles) the cause of any joint failure could be anything from flawed construction and/or technical choices, general wear and tear and all the way to gross abuse.

As to some of the pricing comments voiced here, I find it laughably remarkable and naive that any contributor, all woodworkers of one sort or another surely(?), would think paying only ~£2,000 for such a product was excessive, factory mass produced as this table surely is. I can easily see charging £5,000 and upwards for something similar if I was asked to make a one-off, but then that's the difference; one-offs generally cost a substantial amount more than mass produced stuff. I can see, for a one-off, and without doing any real pricing, something north of probably 80 - 100 hours work, plus materials so, to me, that ~£2,000 seems pretty good on the whole, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2020)

Through the early '80s I made a few dozen tables with five inch wide double tenons into three inch square (at the top) legs. These were used in a commercial environment, and got moved (dragged) around daily. They occasional broke at the joints and got glued back, but lasted for about thirty years before a revamp of the premises. 
That is a totally different kettle of fish to furniture like this - this is designed to be looked at, not used.
Horses for courses.


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## El Barto (5 Aug 2020)

Sgian Dubh":1x5xkrhb said:


> As to some of the pricing comments voiced here, I find it laughably remarkable and naive that any contributor, all woodworkers of one sort or another surely(?), would think paying only ~£2,000 for such a product was excessive, factory mass produced as this table surely is. I can easily see charging £5,000 and upwards for something similar if I was asked to make a one-off, but then that's the difference; one-offs generally cost a substantial amount more than mass produced stuff. I can see, for a one-off, and without doing any real pricing, something north of probably 80 - 100 hours work, plus materials so, to me, that ~£2,000 seems pretty good on the whole, ha, ha. Slainte.



I agree with this in general but with the buying and manufacturing power that Heals has, I highly doubt it's costing them much at all to manufacture these tables. Also, their furniture isn't of a particularly high quality, at least not much of their furniture over the past couple of decades. You are paying for the name, in this instance. I was given a Heals chest of drawers by some friends who were getting rid of it, it retails for £800 and is oak veneered onto chipboard. I have nothing against any of these prices but the quality needs to at least be commensurate with the cost. I'm not saying the quality of this table is bad, just that I think we may be giving Heals too much credit.

As others have said, tables like this aren't meant to be abused or stood on or whatever else, but that doesn't mean that they won't be; dragging to make room for something else, kids standing or playing on them, general wear and tear. I'm also not saying these joints _are_ bad, they could very well be laminated or plenty strong in other ways, but they certainly look like weak spots.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Aug 2020)

I would think for their size the joints would be weak no matter how they were made.


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## TheTiddles (17 Aug 2020)

Much discussion about weak joints... of course they are, if you don’t want weak points put four verticals (one in each corner) nail sheet between each leg and a top that sits over that frame, see, perfect, no weak joints! It’s now a rubbish table though.

Design is all about compromise, that joint is plenty strong enough if it was combed together, even a butt joint with a large loose tenon would do (ever tried to take a trip trapp chair apart? They survive decades of being climbed on by kids).

I like it, but for me It goes skinny too early. The top needs to be slightly heavier, maybe running a rail under the top and thining the current rail a bit to form a structural box would help do that.

Aidan


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## billw (17 Aug 2020)

I noticed whilst leafing through my F&C issues that this table had been awarded a Guild Mark - so someone somewhere thinks it's nice.


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## jnw010 (10 Sep 2020)

The design isn't my cup of tea so it isn't something I can get excited about. It seems pricey in the same way that all store furniture seems expensive to me , but then I don't price out my time for making furniture as I do it for fun, not to make a living. I look at something like that and think I could make something nicer (to me) for a third of the price and enjoy doing it. 

I did note that the blurb calls the design contemporary, but to me it seems more reminiscent of a '70's design. I guess the reality is that there are only so many permutations on a table, and they've pretty much been done.


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## Ollie78 (15 Oct 2020)

It is like one of the concept drawings before the final design, like about halfway through.

Ollie


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## Bale (16 Oct 2020)

RogerS said:


> Take off the (probably) 50% markup that Heal's make.



I can't speak for Heal's margins, but I used to know someone who sold handmade bags through Harrods. They marked her price up by 300%. I also knew a maker who tried to get Heal's interested in selling his work. They were, but in spite of the seemingly astronomical prices they charge at retail, the sums didn't stack up. I don't think it's an outlet for the individual craftsman/woman.

Pete


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## Tobi1186 (22 Feb 2021)

Honestly, I could not picture myself sitting there for dinner. But my table stands right next to the wall and I think this one really needs space to be seen. So if your table is in the middle of the room, go for it! And as some others already said...you could probably make it with less money


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## Jacob (22 Feb 2021)

Pretty ugly.


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## John Brown (22 Feb 2021)

jnw010 said:


> The design isn't my cup of tea so it isn't something I can get excited about. It seems pricey in the same way that all store furniture seems expensive to me , but then I don't price out my time for making furniture as I do it for fun, not to make a living. I look at something like that and think I could make something nicer (to me) for a third of the price and enjoy doing it.
> 
> I did note that the blurb calls the design contemporary, but to me it seems more reminiscent of a '70's design. I guess the reality is that there are only so many permutations on a table, and they've pretty much been done.


70s was my first reaction, too.
Maybe in another 50 years it'll look like a classic...


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## Sandyn (22 Feb 2021)

I only like the design because it's amusing. The legs looks like two people leaning back on a beam of wood holding the table top on their shoulders (heads chopped off!).
Doesn't look as if it would be strong enough for typical use.
If the designer hand made it himself, I still wouldn't pay £1700 for it. It's just a small table, looks a bit like a 70's Habitat table.






If you think that's expensive, what about the EOS table?


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## Dee J (22 Feb 2021)

RogerS said:


> Cross Fixed Dining Table


Oh wow. Not seen that design for so long. My parents original dining furniture back in the early 1960s. Darker finish, but that design. I remember dad covering it with woodgrain formica. The matching chairs had some issue with short grain in the backs leading to ongoing repairs. Last seen back in the late 1990s.


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## recipio (23 Feb 2021)

Its not the worst I've seen but a bit lightweight for a dining table. It would be tricky to make with all those compound mitre joints in the legs. The joints at the ends of the horizontal spar hold it all together. It seems to be inserted into the leg structure so relies on rotational forces only - not good. Ideally it should have a mortise and tenon for strength ?


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