# Smart meters, Pros & Cons?



## devonwoody (17 Oct 2017)

My energy supplier wants me to apply for a smart electric meter.

If you have one what are the pros and cons please?


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Oct 2017)

Other than that you don't have to supply meter readings, there don't appear to be any pros. The concensus seems to be to avoid them if possible. I did read that the takeup is so poor that to meet targets they need to install something like 40,000 a day. There was a thread on them recently - I won't search because I will lose the will to live.


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## Eric The Viking (17 Oct 2017)

Just say no.

There are lots of reasons: they don't work well, they're an invasion of privacy, they're actually dangerous (because of the way they work in transmitting too-powerful WiFi signals), and so on. 

I realise Google will throw up loony results alongside sensible ones, but the more measured analyses I have seen indicate the whole thing is nonsense, for anyone who is already sensible about energy use. The spendthrifts amongst us will ignore any hints in any case.

There are also Big Brotherish, sinister overtones, in that the ultimate objective is to be able to control when and/or how much energy you are allowed to use. It won't be the current technology, but imagine being on a really cheap tariff that means you are actually cut off when demand is high enough. Those prepared to pay lots, get energy when they want it, the rest of us will need blankets and candles (or ice packs during heat waves).

I don't think these big companies should get any encouragement - they won't from me, anyway!

E.


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## John Brown (17 Oct 2017)

"they're actually dangerous (because of the way they work in transmitting too-powerful WiFi signals)"
Is there actually any proper scientific evidence for this? Just interested, don't want to start a row...


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## Eric The Viking (17 Oct 2017)

Apparently they use a burst mode of transmission with higher output than normal devices (by 10s of dB!). I think this is done because they're usually located in awkward places (under the stairs in the basement, in external meter cupboards, etc.), and the designers want to be certain the signal gets through. The actual data transmitted is minimal by modern internet standards, so that lends itself to the technique, too.

Years ago, when I worked in an industry that used RF a lot, SHF signals used to be treated with great caution. Don't forget that microwave ovens operate in a nearby part of the spectrum (OK, at much higher powers, admittedly). You are in effect _very slightly_ cooking yourself in proximity to these devices. 

We have got used to WiFi and mobile devices in daily life without much study of long term effects, and because the emissions aren't apparent people become blase about them (they don't really affect FM radio, unless faulty, for example, for all sorts of reasons). There are huge vested interests hoping they don't cause damage, but it's reversing the understanding of 30-40 years ago, when kit working at those frequencies was restricted to educated engineers, not Joe Public.

I know it's logically impossible to prove a negative (that they don't cause damage, in this case), but the evidence on the other side is actually stacking up. Apparently WiFi and cellular frequencies do cause damage to living organisms (you'll have to Google for the detail), which is quite predictable. It's one good reason why my home network is as cabled-up as possible, and I don't keep my mobile on me most of the time, and turn off WiFi when it's not in use (and use efficient aerials, so the output stages don't have to use high power for coverage). Like other radiation, such as UV, any bad effects are most likely cumulative (that's me guessing, not something I've read).


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## Seiken (17 Oct 2017)

Apart from the usual scare stories about radiation., there are two reasons
a) Not all energy supplier are able to use smart meters so if you one and switch you may get no benefits
b) There have been a number of house fires attributed to the quality of installation (not the meters themselves) carried out by rushed/inadequately trained technicians. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5THjNWMjNdKyWwCXt48HJNB/smart-meter-installations.


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## transatlantic (17 Oct 2017)

Just so I know for the future. Can you simply say no? or are they going to make it complicated?

I currently have one of the external monitors which is very useful I find (geo Minim Electricity Energy Monitor). So I have no real need for one. Submitting a meter reading every few months isn't exactly difficult


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## sunnybob (17 Oct 2017)

Just listened to a very informed debate on radio 4. They said that smart meters are not smart. If you change your energy supplier, you have to change the meter.

Martin lewis, the money man says stay away, its yet another governemnt botched job.
he even said (on live radio) the minister for energy was not a fit person for the post as he had never bothered to swap suppliers and had no idea of the trouble the "smart meters" were causing..


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## AndyT (17 Oct 2017)

Seiken":1w92ne4c said:


> rushed/inadequately trained technicians



- which can also result in a bill for £7,000 worth of gas in three weeks, in a vacated student house, previously occupied by my son and his friends, billed after they had left the property. The energy supplier says to ignore the bill, but it's extra hassle none of them want, with the attendant risk of a bad credit rating if the unpaid bill automatically gets sent off to the bailiffs while the right hand is failing to sort out the errors of the left hand...


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## Seiken (17 Oct 2017)

Just ignore the letter, I've had two now from my supplier asking me to contact them to arrange for a smart meter installation which have gone into the hampster bed generator (shredder), its not compulsory to allow them to fit one.


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## Racers (17 Oct 2017)

Smart meters give them the power to cut you off remotely and can make it difficult to swap suppliers.

Pete


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## Tasky (17 Oct 2017)

transatlantic":26z22vvg said:


> Just so I know for the future. Can you simply say no?


Dunno about other utilities, but I believe the water one will eventually be compulsory... at least as currently planned. 
The added benefit here is the enhanced leak detection, while also not blowing your house up. 

Negatives depend on how thick your tinfoil hat and lead underpants are, I suppose. I've heard rumours that thieves will be able to hack into the network, access your meter and tell when you're away on holiday so they can burgle you... because watching your house isn't good enough in this age of the Internet, I assume. 
Another I hear is that companies will use these meters to collect and sell your private information... which you already gave them when you set up your account anyway, but never mind.


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## Rorschach (17 Oct 2017)

As others have said, just say no.


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## John15 (17 Oct 2017)

I've got one. Sounds like I may have made a mistake.

John


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## John Brown (17 Oct 2017)

Eric The Viking":3pyrwq5b said:


> Apparently they use a burst mode of transmission with higher output than normal devices (by 10s of dB!). I think this is done because they're usually located in awkward places (under the stairs in the basement, in external meter cupboards, etc.), and the designers want to be certain the signal gets through. The actual data transmitted is minimal by modern internet standards, so that lends itself to the technique, too.
> 
> Years ago, when I worked in an industry that used RF a lot, SHF signals used to be treated with great caution. Don't forget that microwave ovens operate in a nearby part of the spectrum (OK, at much higher powers, admittedly). You are in effect _very slightly_ cooking yourself in proximity to these devices.
> 
> ...



So that's a "no" then. Unless you use the word "apparently" in a different way.
I did actually spend a lot of time googling the subject, when our local tennis club was offered a sum of money to have a mobile mast atop one of our floodlight stanchions. As soon as the planning permission went in we were deluged with objections, petitions and quite frankly insulting letters. We had pointed out that both the NHS and Cancer research UK were of the opinion that, while the excessive use of mobile phones might possibly cause some measurable warming of tissue, the inverse square law of RF propagation made it extremely unlikely that proximity to a mast could cause any damage. The thing I couldn't get past was the fact that nobody had suggested a plausible biological mechanism for damge to take place.
Not that any of this cut any ice with the local. We withdrew the application.
One thing I found interesting was that, while googling the subject of WiFi and possible damage, I came across a firm selling magic boxes that claimed to neutralize the effects of WiFi.

Having typed all this, however, I won't be getting a smart meter any time soon.


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## Rorschach (17 Oct 2017)

There is no proven link to wifi and detrimental health effect unless you are a tin foil hat wearer. That has nothing to do with my reasons for not wanting a smart meter though.


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## finneyb (18 Oct 2017)

Previous thread on Smart meters any-opinions-on-smart-meters-t107749.html

Brian


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## Phil Pascoe (18 Oct 2017)

I knew someone would find it.


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## John Brown (18 Oct 2017)

Rorschach":20ewmmde said:


> There is no proven link to wifi and detrimental health effect unless you are a tin foil hat wearer. That has nothing to do with my reasons for not wanting a smart meter though.


The last time I was offered a smart meter, it was GSM(or whatever the generic term is these days), not WiFi. Surely if they wanted the ability to turn your electrickery off, WiFi would be too easily defeatable.


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## Duncan A (18 Oct 2017)

According to the government the most compelling reason for having a smart meter is that it will make US smart. We will be able to see that switching on an appliance uses energy - which of course we are all far too thick to realise for ourselves. :roll: 
In fairness to the energy companies I don't think they are particularly keen on smart meters, it's just that they are obliged by the government to fit them by 2020 (?).
The cost of the exercise is unbelievable and the failure to specify technical standards means that, as others have stated, many meters are not compatible with other suppliers - so they'll have to be swapped out in the near future. More expense, so the claimed savings, even if real (which I doubt) will be eaten up in additional installation costs.
The meters are pretty well all made in China so of course we know that they couldn't possibly be hacked by the Chinese in the event of some sort of falling out in the future.
And we pay people large sums of money to come up with these brilliant ideas!
Duncan


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## Cinimod (18 Oct 2017)

I've been ignoring the letters telling me about fitting one for ages. I personally don't trust the big brother intrusion and the nail in the coffin was when the data lady came round to our school to check on our wireless metre readings manually every six weeks (oh the irony =D> =D> ), she said she would be the last person to have one fitted.

Enough for me not to have one and I think I did hear that other countries that have used them have found a trail of issues and problems that they have been shelved. Bring on the revolution    ........dom


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## skipdiver (18 Oct 2017)

I'm not getting one until they force me, probably at gunpoint before i yield. Big brother and all that. I have just switched to one of the small energy companies and hope they are not so keen on this. They are certainly cheaper than npower, who were terrible all round.


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## geoffshep (18 Oct 2017)

We have them, and they are convenient for meter readings but that's about it and far as we are concerned. They are the original design/spec, as supplied free by British Gas. They make meter reading really easy (ie no meter reading required) and you can therefore get a very accurate up to date usage on your online account. That doesn't help greatly if the company still only raises bills quarterly though.

We don't use the (now obsolete) first generation 'smart' display - for a number of reasons. It needs to be plugged in so takes up another socket, it has an extremely bright green light which tells you your usage is 'in the green' (apart from the unnecessary power required to light the green searchlight) and it is so bright it illuminates an entire room. And anyway, it doesn't matter if the thing tells you your usage has just shot up when you switch the kettle on - you are still going to make that cup of tea. So it lives in the cupboard.

The problem as yet, is that they probably won't work with a different supplier. They were fine with British Gas (obviously) but no use when we went to EON. In fact because we were noted as having smart meters, the system couldn't send us quarterly meter reading email reminders (work that one out!) so unless we remembered to send them in we had to have the meter reader come round in person. When we switched back to BG, they were picked up straight away and worked fine - which is more than can be said for BG! We are in the process of switching to EDF so will see whether they are of any use with them.


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## finneyb (18 Oct 2017)

skipdiver":3afz7sy2 said:


> I'm not getting one until they force me, probably at gunpoint before i yield. Big brother and all that. I have just switched to one of the small energy companies and hope they are not so keen on this. They are certainly cheaper than npower, who were terrible all round.



I'm with Flow ( I assume a small energy co) they have not offered a smart meter AND they email every month for me to put in the readings, if I want to - sometimes I enter the readings others times I don't, depends what I'm doing.

Brian


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## skipdiver (18 Oct 2017)

finneyb":1hhhderd said:


> skipdiver":1hhhderd said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not getting one until they force me, probably at gunpoint before i yield. Big brother and all that. I have just switched to one of the small energy companies and hope they are not so keen on this. They are certainly cheaper than npower, who were terrible all round.
> ...



I switched to Avro last month. Early days yet, so don't know what to expect.


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## [email protected] (19 Oct 2017)

we've had one installed, its saved us money as I quickly realised how much the GCH cost to run so down went the wall stat


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## stuartpaul (20 Oct 2017)

[email protected]":2oe8iwhp said:


> we've had one installed, its saved us money as I quickly realised how much the GCH cost to run so down went the wall stat


Which is really the object of the exercise! (same here by the way).

I do struggle to understand some of the paranoia that appears on this forum whenever smart meters are mentioned.


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## Rorschach (20 Oct 2017)

You could have worked that out for yourself using the old dumb meter. Also I never understand this thing of people saying it saves them money. If you are running gas or electricity unnecessarily then yes it might help but it if you are being sensible about what items you are using then a smart meter is not going to save you any money. No-one in their right mind is going to sit in the living room with lights and tv running, look at the meter and say "lok how much this is costing us, better turn it off and sit in the dark!"


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Oct 2017)

Look at your usage over several hours without central heating on then look at it after the same time with it on. You don't need a smart meter to tell you the difference.


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## transatlantic (20 Oct 2017)

Of course you don't _need_ a smart meter for monitoring things, but it makes it easier and people are more likely to take notice.


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## RogerS (20 Oct 2017)

stuartpaul":3tjilr75 said:


> ,,,,
> I do struggle to understand some of the paranoia that appears on this forum whenever smart meters are mentioned.



It's not paranoia but sheer pragmatism and experience born of reality.

Since they can cut you off remotely and computers/companies/humans never, ever make mistakes (as if) then it's commonsense not to give them the opportunity.


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## stuartpaul (20 Oct 2017)

RogerS":3h7wop2z said:


> stuartpaul":3h7wop2z said:
> 
> 
> > ,,,,
> ...


Then on that basis Roger we'd better halt all technology immediately as something could go wrong! I know that's not what you mean but it is a somewhat logical extension of that particular argument is it not?

I might well get 'caught out' at some point in time but in the grand scheme of life, the universe and everything I'll take that punt for now.

We'll be changing supplier next year (from BG) so we'll see how that goes!


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## RogerS (20 Oct 2017)

I take your point and perhaps I'm more cynical than you. I just don't want the potential hassle and for what I see as little benefit. Bit like why I keep a dedicated bank account for PayPal. I just don't want the hassle of them riding roughshod over my main bank account and the hassle in trying to resolve mistakes. Ditto direct debits...try and avoid them as much as possible.

OK...I'm a control freak !


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## Rorschach (20 Oct 2017)

I'm also rather worried about the fact that the installers are poorly trained and meters are catching fire.


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## MJP (20 Oct 2017)

The intended use of smart meters is to flatten out demand by differential pricing - if you look at the UK demand plot http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ you will see the regular drop in demand at nighttime and the morning and evening peaks.
Smart metering will enable the supply companies to charge different rates depending upon when you use the electricity - very expensive at peak demand times, not so expensive during the night.
This has been made necessary by the closure of many of our power stations, to the extent that we now have very little spare capacity to see us through a cold spell in mid winter, for example.
All the nonsense about saving the consumer money is just so much hot air.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Oct 2017)

So they could have put everyone on Economy 7.


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## RogerS (20 Oct 2017)

phil.p":3nc4sdwv said:


> So they could have put everyone on Economy 7.



ROTFLMAO

=D>


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## No skills (20 Oct 2017)

I'm starting to think that with IQ's apparently dropping like a stone smart meters are essential...


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## Rorschach (20 Oct 2017)

No skills":1gce3tor said:


> I'm starting to think that with IQ's apparently dropping like a stone smart meters are essential...



Like a stone? I wouldn't call a single point drop that serious, at least not yet.


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## No skills (20 Oct 2017)

Don't believe the hype - 1 point seems to have made a hell of a difference


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