# Please help me fix my cold and damp workshop



## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

I have a cold and damp workshop that I'm after advice for please (damp being the main problem).

The structure: 
The floor is damp proof and not insulated, and that's the way I want it to stay (I've levelled it and finished it nicely and will put bits of rubber down if I need to for comfort). 
One wall is ply and adjoins a guest house, and is insulated (so we can ignore that wall). 
The small front wall is largely a pair of FLBs (I’ll add some basic insulation). 
The other two walls (the problem ones) are single skin brick parapet walls and they are wet through. It was built with brick because they are just an inch or 2 from boundary brick walls, so cannot be maintained (as wood would need). 
The roof is uninsulated, sloping with a breathable membrane and fake slates on top (I will insulate it). 

Damp Walls:
These 2 walls extend about 3 feet above the boundary brick wall. It is those 3 feet that are exposed to driving rain, which then trickles down the whole wall, and soaks into the very pourus bricks I have. I could fix the wet bricks with water based epoxy paint on the inside (the bricks would get wet, but the water wouldn’t come in). I could also add a tiny bit of insulation to these walls (I don’t have the space inside to do it properly). I am convinced that the main cause of damp is not condensation (as it would normally be) but rain soaking through this single skin brick (as it is a parapet wall it is high, and you can see the rain soak through it). I can’t easily fix the problem externally because the boundary wall is only an inch or two away. Mike Garnham’s first thought was that sealing the bricks was not a good idea, because once water is in the bricks and freezes, it will expand and break the bricks. I don’t know if this still applies if I’m only sealing the inside, allowing the outside to breath. I don’t know how else I could fix the problem, since my wall is too close to the boundary for me to add anything decent to the outside of the wall (except the top 3 feet).

Roof:
I have no eaves ventilation, as there are parapets on the 2 damp walls, a box gutter on the other main wall and for some reason I didn't make an overhang with a soffit for over the doors (I could create some ventilation by slashing the top of the felt, where it's protected under the ridge tiles (my architect has suggested that before)). I have 6 inch ceiling joists and rafters above so I’d like to use some space blanket insulation (200mm) that I already have (between the ceiling joists) and then put OSB underneath the joists to protect the insulation. But I need to sort out the main damp issues before I can install it.

Any advice much appreciated, thanks.


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## kasandrich (27 Jan 2010)

Why not just paint the damp walls with a bitumen paint on the inside line with a plastic damp membrane then insulate and board, with battens a suitable distance apart.

To assist the wet wall you could apply a silicon sealer on the outside such as Thomsons water seal.


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## liam8223 (27 Jan 2010)

I have had this problem on my units, driving rain soaking through 4" block.

My solution was to Hilti gorrugated tins onto the blockwork, with a drip rail at the bottom so that the water doesn't drip onto the last 12" of block that isn't covered.

If the boundary wall is that close, I would suggest that your problem is only the top 3 feet.

I would devise a similar system to mine, but make sure you utilise a drip profile at the bottom, so that the water you are deflecting doesn't just soak into the remainder of your wall.

Steer well clear of anything you apply to bricks to stop damp, they are not that effective and very expensive, I have trid many in the past, including 'professional' quality ones from Sovereign, to no real effect.

Hope this helps.

Liam.


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## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

Triggaar...some photos would help. Liam's answer would work a treat, and is my preferred solution to the wall issue provided you have the room. Don't try and waterproof bricks with a chemical.

Mike


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

liam8223":p3c2v1cn said:


> If the boundary wall is that close, I would suggest that your problem is only the top 3 feet.
> 
> I would devise a similar system to mine, but make sure you utilise a drip profile at the bottom, so that the water you are deflecting doesn't just soak into the remainder of your wall.


Thanks Liam. The wall really is that close, so I agree that the problem is the top 3 feet (and stopping that rain dropping to the bottom section). Could you help me better understand how this would work. I think my problem with this will be how it looks to my neighbours, who are really nice and I want to keep them happy. They like the wall as it is, and don't want it to be an eyesaw. I could probably do anything at the the same level as the boundary wall, as that would be difficult for them to see.




> Steer well clear of anything you apply to bricks to stop damp, they are not that effective and very expensive





Mike Garnham":p3c2v1cn said:


> Don't try and waterproof bricks with a chemical.


I am not ignoring you guys, you know a lot more about this than me. I don't fully understand though. The epoxy paint I've used to damp proof the floor works well for floors. Why wouldn't it work on a wall, if you left the outside of the wall bare so that it could breath?



> some photos would help


This is the inside, I'll pop out now and take an outside shot of the side wall (prepare yourselves)


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## matt (27 Jan 2010)

My garage has a similar problem, albeit the 1930's interior render seems to keep the damp from penetrating the inside of the garage. Drill a hole and, once through the render, the dust stops and I get brick coloured paste!

Waterproof render on the inside?


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## liam8223 (27 Jan 2010)

Yes, aesthetics can be an issue.

I would suggest approaching your nice neighbours and asking the question.

You could quite easily paint the cladding, and maybe agree to do so regularly as a sweetener?

The chemicals simply do not work.

I have used an epoxy paint before on a floor, and yes it worked for a short while, but the damp, if bad enough will soon lift the paint, as it did on my old floor.

I'm only speaking on my experience!

Liam.


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

Photobucket isn't working at the moment, so I can't upload the new pictures.


liam8223":2iyfbyef said:


> You could quite easily paint the cladding, and maybe agree to do so regularly as a sweetener?


There is no cladding at the moment, but are you suggesting I add cladding?



> I have used an epoxy paint before on a floor, and yes it worked for a short while, but the damp, if bad enough will soon lift the paint, as it did on my old floor.


I see. I hopefully that won't happen to my floor, where the levelling compound I've used will keep the paint from lifting. So the only alternative to somehow fixing the outside would be to put a plastic sheet dpm on the wall, held with battens (with screws that would break the dpm, but that's unavoidable).


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## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":1sra4zys said:


> The epoxy paint I've used to damp proof the floor works well for floors.



hmmmmm...........not so sure that's true looking at the photo! I'm really not sure what is going on there.

Mike


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":1p8jj8xq said:


> hmmmmm...........not so sure that's true looking at the photo! I'm really not sure what is going on there.


 That green stuff is just a primer, used before I put the levelling compound down. That's an old photo.

Anyway, hopefully photobucket is working now, so here's the side wall (back wall is the same):


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## Dibs-h (27 Jan 2010)

Could you not space off that wall - battons perhaps - clad it and have teh cladding "dripping" into some sort of gutter at the bottom? With it being clad - it will match the rest of it and would look attractive to the neighbours. Less industrial than tin sheeting.


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

Dibs-h":1lvhau7d said:


> Could you not space off that wall - battons perhaps - clad it and have teh cladding "dripping" into some sort of gutter at the bottom?


If you just mean the top 3 feet of the wall, yes, I could do that. Not particularly cheap to clad it in oak, but I guess it would work. Fitting a gutter would be a problem though. I built a parapet wall in the first place because my neighbours didn't want a gutter there. I could just try and make the water drip onto the boundary wall from the bottom piece of oak. Not sure how it would look - oak is nice, but it would be an unusual use (parapet wall).


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## Dibs-h (27 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":21cs51u0 said:


> Dibs-h":21cs51u0 said:
> 
> 
> > Could you not space off that wall - battons perhaps - clad it and have teh cladding "dripping" into some sort of gutter at the bottom?
> ...



I was going to say box gutter - but the gap looks rather tight. I suppose what I'm saying is that as Liam has pointed out you need to have a covering on the wall to stop the driving rain from penetrating and then have something to take the water away that has been directed to the bottom.

You could direct it over the wall - but that might result in it seeping back in thru the boundary wall.


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## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

What a nightmare! God.....you should have got an architect involved before you got in such a mess. Building overhand (ie from the inside) inevitably means that your pointing is poor externally. It is easy to see the squeezed out bed-joints and where the bed joints don't reach brick face. Both act as a shelf for all the moisture to sit on, permanently wetting the bricks.

I don't know what to suggest.

_edit: Advice removed ........I can't risk it._

Mike


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

Dibs-h":1zidfkju said:


> I was going to say box gutter - but the gap looks rather tight. I suppose what I'm saying is that as Liam has pointed out you need to have a covering on the wall to stop the driving rain from penetrating and then have something to take the water away that has been directed to the bottom.
> 
> You could direct it over the wall - but that might result in it seeping back in thru the boundary wall.


Yes it is too tight. If the water made it to the bottom, that would probably be good enough - we're not talking about water from the roof, just what hits my wall, so not masses of water. No house has anywhere for such water to go other than down the bricks and cavities.



Mike Garnham":1zidfkju said:


> you should have got an architect involved before you got in such a mess


It was designed by an architect (I asked for my wall to be built as close to the boundary wall as possible).



> Building overhand (ie from the inside) inevitably means that your pointing is poor externally. It is easy to see the squeezed out bed-joints and where the bed joints don't reach brick face. Both act as a shelf for all the moisture to sit on, permanently wetting the bricks.


Indeed. But building it away from the wall would've made my 6 foot wide workshop 5 foot wide, which wouldn't be good. I'll get that half a brick out.



> Maybe the sensible route is to batten out and clad the exposed bit of your garage wall, with a lead flashing on top of the boundary wall dressed up under the cladding. You must deal with all rainwater from your roof within your own boundary.....them's the rules.......


Interesting, I didn't know that - but the rainwater is not from my roof, it's just from the wall (the roof rainwater already makes it to my downpipe) - does that mean I don't have to deal with it? Either way, I could just try and get the water to trickle down my side of the boundary wall. It would then sit and the bottom and soak into the concrete or run out, which isn't great, but might not be a problem. Getting it to run nicely would be tough).



> Then that damned gap. Useless for ventilation, full of rubbish at the bottom (even a half-brick), and yet preventing any access. Again....first job is to get it clear and clean.


Any tips on how to do this - there will be lumps of hard pug down there, not sure I can do anything with it.



> What about filling the gap entirely? ... You would then have to weather-proof both ends of the exposed foam with some form of cladding.


I can't really get to both ends. You can see one end - the other end is a corner, and the back wall of the workshop is exactly the same - I can't get to it apart from above.

While I don't mind the idea of filling the gap, that sounds far too difficult and expensive. I appreciate the idea, as if there's no decent alternative, what choice do I have.

What do you think would be the problem with just cladding the top 3 feet and letting the water run down my side of the boundary wall?


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## Dibs-h (27 Jan 2010)

Look at it this way - you have X litres of water hitting your wall over Y hours - resulting in it soaking thru.

Now if you fit some sort of cladding - you will have some of it retained by the cladding (assuming it's wood) but some running off. If you assume 3/4 stills runs off (just picking numbers here - it probably will be more run off than 3/4) - this now runs down to the gap - this volume could still cause the inside to be wet.

Unless you "channel" the run-off in a controlled fashion to somwhere else - you are simply transferring the issue somewhere else.

Well it is to me anyway.

HIH

Dibs


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

Dibs-h":3uswlg74 said:


> Unless you "channel" the run-off in a controlled fashion to somwhere else - you are simply transferring the issue somewhere else.


Yes I know what you mean. It's just whether the voume would be a problem or not. I guess that although this happens to all houses, the water would normally hit soil or a path when it gets to te ground, and then trickle away. If I did allow the water to get to the ground, I'd need it to be able to trickle away.

Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated.


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## Dibs-h (27 Jan 2010)

I had a similar issue with my wall - but thankfully reducing the soil on the other side and clearing out the gap solved my problem.

But before I did that I did look into what else could be done and where to get the stuff etc. from or who to use. I did have a chat with these individuals who certainly did offer a few solutions and the pump rentals if you chose to DIY (which I felt was a possibility, as it was the lack of kit which would otherwise stop you doing it)

http://www.aquatecnic.info/content/view/16417/182/

The KB Pur Gel and 2 part injectable foams were discussed. Not the cheapest but useful info nonetheless


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## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

_edit: Advice removed ........I can't risk it._


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## matt (27 Jan 2010)

Not an expert but I'd be tempted to get a gutter made (zinc?) that attaches to the wall of the building and extends out slightly over the garden wall, thus preventing any rainfall going directly down between the building and the garden wall; whilst creating a channel for the rainfall hitting the wall to go in front or behind the building. Then render the wall, coming down over where the gutter is attached.

I'm also wondering whether air vents through the inside of the building would help ventilate. When the door/s are open the building acts like a funnel.


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## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

Triggaar,

what is the ground level like in your neighbours garden? Is it the same, higher or lower than in yours?

Mike


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":dw3h80wv said:


> It will collect in the bottom, and soak your bricks down there.....same moisture, but just concentrated in a smaller area. Super-wet bricks at and around ground level.


I didn't know that super wet bricks was a problem. I have bricks elsewhere below ground level (bottom of my front wall) and I thought they didn't mind being wet.



> I've just read that the end wall is the same as this, and that seals the deal for me. You will never get ventilation around that corner to dry that wall out.


Again I didn't realise wet bricks were a problem?



> fully fill a capped cavity with foam.


Wouldn't this basically make my wall attached to the boundary wall and cause structural concerns? My foundations and wall are solid, the boundary walls will not be, and they no doubt move.


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":pds02ytb said:


> what is the ground level like in your neighbours garden? Is it the same, higher or lower than in yours?


About the same.


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## Dibs-h (27 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":3krpjydu said:


> > fully fill a capped cavity with foam.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't this basically make my wall attached to the boundary wall and cause structural concerns? My foundations and wall are solid, the boundary walls will not be, and they no doubt move.



I thought Mike had mentioned inserting some DPM into the gap against the boundary wall and then filling with foam between the DPM and your wall - the DPM stopping the foam from bonding with the boundary wall?


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## Triggaaar (27 Jan 2010)

Yes he did - it would stop them being stuck, so the boundary wall could move away from my wall, but if the boundary wall were moving towards my wall it would still push it I assume.

If it's as bad as this, it means the back wall of my guest house is in the same predicament. The back wall of the workshop and guest house are the same wall, and inch or two from the rear boundary for almost 9 metres. The only difference is that the guest house also has a cavity and inside wall, but there's still the issue of water dripping to the bottom.


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## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

_edit: Advice removed ........I can't risk it._


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## Dibs-h (27 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":39icyfsn said:


> Yes he did - it would stop them being stuck, so the boundary wall could move away from my wall, but if the boundary wall were moving towards my wall it would still push it I assume.
> 
> If it's as bad as this, it means the back wall of my guest house is in the same predicament. The back wall of the workshop and guest house are the same wall, and inch or two from the rear boundary for almost 9 metres. The only difference is that the guest house also has a cavity and inside wall, but there's still the issue of water dripping to the bottom.



I think Matt's idea is cool. You could have something made up - zinc might be good - which would be fitted to the wall a bit like a drip bead, but would have a channel formed into the bottom (could even sit in the gap somewhat), and then render above it.


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## pren (27 Jan 2010)

I like the zinc idea as well.

I was thinking along the lines of having a 'J' shaped fitting made up that clads the upper section of the shed wall, with the lower 'cup' fitting between the shed wall and the boundary. Seal the lip to the boundary wall and fit an out flow to connect to the existing rain gutter. It would act as a shelter for the gap, leaving the ends open to alow airflow.







Yes, Mike. Still bored. :lol:


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## matt (27 Jan 2010)

With regard to the ventilation dilemma... Can I suggest you get a couple of those kids twirling fan thingies and push them in to the ground at both ends of the gap. You could then get some idea whether there is any airflow.

I'm wondering whether a solar powered fan might be enough to get things moving.


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## matt (27 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":lfv7u1be said:


> _edit: Advice removed ........I can't risk it._



Too late - I've saved the page. Now, about my extension... Architects are so expensive these days...


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## billybuntus (27 Jan 2010)

matt":hlf2bs9d said:


> Not an expert but I'd be tempted to get a gutter made (zinc?) that attaches to the wall of the building and extends out slightly over the garden wall, thus preventing any rainfall going directly down between the building and the garden wall; whilst creating a channel for the rainfall hitting the wall to go in front or behind the building. Then render the wall, coming down over where the gutter is attached.
> 
> I'm also wondering whether air vents through the inside of the building would help ventilate. When the door/s are open the building acts like a funnel.



Sounds like a plan, then the cladding and water runoff would be aimed straight into the channel and it sealed to either wall wouldn't be a bodge


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## johnf (27 Jan 2010)

Who owns the boundary wall you need to seal the gap between the two at the top leave the ends open for ventilation


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## liam8223 (27 Jan 2010)

Surely my solution was the cheapest, quickest and most proven? (10 of my 26 units have this system)

I always use corrugated steel sheet, but anything that doesn't let water through will work.

When I said paint the cladding I was referring to the steel cladding I had suggested.

If you pick a colour (or your neighbour picks a colour) that is pleasing and promise to maintain it (once a year would be ample) surely they won't mind?

No offence to any other members, but why over complicate and over engineer a simple-to-overcome problem? 

I most certainly would not be attaching anything to the boundary wall, leave your building freestanding, I wouldn't want that boundary wall putting any stresses on my building!

Liam.


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## Benchwayze (27 Jan 2010)

You have a nightmare.. 

You should have put down a narrow wooden batten with wire attached at each end. As you built, the plugs of mortar could have been pulled up every now and then, the batten helping to clear the squeeze out too. 

Bit late now though I fear. All that mortar down there will transmit damp through the bricks. 

You need to rake it out if you can. Maybe one of those three pronged hoes, that look like chickens' feet? 

For the squeeze out, screw a flat wallpaper scraper to a length of timber and see if you can remove the mortar that way. 

Just had a thought... If maintenance of the boundary wall is your responsibility, I don't think anyone can stop you demolishing it and replacing it with a substantial wooden fence; as long as you fence away from your property. Mike G will be able to correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, as long as you maintain the fence to a reasonable standard, and stay within height limits, you can use any kind of fencing you wish.

HTH
John


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## johnf (27 Jan 2010)

liam8223":roojsqcc said:


> Surely my solution was the cheapest, quickest and most proven? (10 of my 26 units have this system)
> 
> I always use corrugated steel sheet, but anything that doesn't let water through will work.
> 
> ...



Yes the steel sheet will waterproof the top part of the wall but it will still discharge water down the gap between the two walls thats where the damp problem is the sealing of this gap could be flexible with no strain on either wall


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## liam8223 (27 Jan 2010)

In the original OP the problem was described as being driving rain saturating the brick.

Is there no blue brick course?

If yes then the water will be fine running into the gap.

If no then......... What benchwayze said!

On my buildings, the water ends up on the ground, BUT most, if not all the units have the concrete slab 6" above the outside ground level, so the water on the floor wont penetrate the blockwork.

Hope that makes sense, does in my head!

Liam.


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## johnf (27 Jan 2010)

ust look at the photo stop the water getting in the gap and you have a dry wall job done


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## trousers (27 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":241w85uh said:


> you should have got an architect involved before you got in such a mess



It was designed by an architect......


:roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Triggaaar (28 Jan 2010)

Thank you all for your help.


matt":2ei78wah said:


> I'd be tempted to get a gutter made (zinc?) that attaches to the wall of the building and extends out slightly over the garden wall, thus preventing any rainfall going directly down between the building and the garden wall; whilst creating a channel for the rainfall hitting the wall to go in front or behind the building. Then render the wall, coming down over where the gutter is attached.


This may be my best option. I don't know which would be cheaper, to render or clad (in oak) the top 3 feet, but as long as the result allowed the water to go onto the gutter it should work. Is zinc the best material for the job?



Dibs-h":2ei78wah said:


> I was thinking along the lines of having a 'J' shaped fitting made up that clads the upper section of the shed wall, with the lower 'cup' fitting between the shed wall and the boundary. Seal the lip to the boundary wall and fit an out flow to connect to the existing rain gutter.


Thanks for the drawing. For asthetics I'd probably prefer the top to be either oak or render, rather than have zinc all the way up the wall. I'd probably have to do a more DIY version of your drawing 



matt":2ei78wah said:


> Can I suggest you get a couple of those kids twirling fan thingies and push them in to the ground at both ends of the gap.


I think there probably is some airflow, I can try your suggestion to see how much. Not sure how much is enough.



johnf":2ei78wah said:


> Who owns the boundary wall you need to seal the gap between the two at the top leave the ends open for ventilation


I believe it's shared. It's a 6 foot Edwardian wall, knocking it down is not an option.



liam8223":2ei78wah said:


> Surely my solution was the cheapest, quickest and most proven? (10 of my 26 units have this system)


I've re read your idea Liam and I can't quite picture what it looks like. Is it much different to Matt's idea?



> When I said paint the cladding I was referring to the steel cladding I had suggested.
> 
> If you pick a colour (or your neighbour picks a colour) that is pleasing and promise to maintain it (once a year would be ample) surely they won't mind?


I'd also like to avoid having to maintain this once a year. The neighbours plan to grow plants up the wall, so it just needs to act as a background, but can't be re-painted.



Benchwayze":2ei78wah said:


> All that mortar down there will transmit damp through the bricks. You need to rake it out if you can. Maybe one of those three pronged hoes, that look like chickens' feet?


I don't think there's any way I'll be getting it out, it's solid and nigh on impossible to get at. 



liam8223":2ei78wah said:


> In the original OP the problem was described as being driving rain saturating the brick.
> 
> Is there no blue brick course?


I don't know what that means? It's the same bricks all the way down to a concrete slab, with a DPC a couple of bricks up.



> On my buildings, the water ends up on the ground, BUT most, if not all the units have the concrete slab 6" above the outside ground level


Yeah that's not so easy when you're 2 inches from the neighbours wall.



trousers":2ei78wah said:


> It was designed by an architect......
> 
> :roll: :roll: :roll:


How would you have done it?


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## MikeG. (28 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":9npeuy8n said:


> How would you have done it?



I can think of 4 or 5 ways that would have been better than what you ended up with. I have a sneaky feeling that you just got someone to draw up your plans, and that he wasn't an architect.

-

Your difficulty with overcladding the exposed wall is that you don't appear to have much of a roof overhang..........you are going to have to adjust your roof to make it overhang the new cladding.

I'm not getting involved. However, you really should seek professional advise about that part of your building works that is habitable. You say you have a guest wing contructed like this........you must, must get some proper advice, and get it sorted because what you have there is just a huge problem waiting for just the moment when you can least afford it.

Mike


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## OLD (28 Jan 2010)

I think the problem is the part of the wall that is not properly pointed has voids and lets water through also water gets on top of the slab and comes through the wall at slab level. You have solutions to stop the water from getting to these areas but the top part of the wall which has been pointed i would leave as is and monitor.
When flashing bring it up the good part of the wall to capture any splashing as it hits the lower part of flash tray etc.


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## Benchwayze (28 Jan 2010)

Trigaaarr, 

I can only speak for my own area, but here, householders are responsible only for boundary fences/walls to one side of their property. That way all boundaries get seen to one way or the other! As far as I am aware, that is the National situation. 

You must establish, once and for all, who is responsible for that wall. (It looks in parlous condition anyhow, and at least needs some attention on the top course.) 

Before a bigger bill comes through the letter-box, I would advise you to speak to a Solicitor. Once you know who should maintain the wall, then you can start working out how to solve it. 

HTH

Regards
John


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## woodsworth (28 Jan 2010)

> The other two walls (the problem ones) are single skin brick parapet walls and they are wet through. It was built with brick because they are just an inch or 2 from boundary brick walls, so cannot be maintained (as wood would need).



Are you telling me that an architect in the UK drew up a plan that had only one layer of brick? No air space, insulation and inner wall? I find that extremely hard to believe. What does he have to say about the resulting problem? i'd like to see these drawings, because it is unbelievable. 

That being said any solutions mentioned here are only gap fill measures that will not fix the problem, I can't believe that during the building process no one mentioned that this might be a problem, even if the Architect did draw it. Doesn't anyone come around to inspect buildings to make sure they adhere to a minimum standard?

This is indeed a nightmare on many levels.


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## trousers (28 Jan 2010)

> trousers wrote:
> It was designed by an architect......
> 
> 
> How would you have done it?



I think you had two options when it was designed.

1. Build it with enough room between the boundary wall and the workshop so that a damp proof finish could be installed externally at the build stage, and maintained for ever after.
2. Sort out the boundary wall issue to ascertain ownership/maintainence. If aggreable to all parties build close to it _but_ detail the weatherproofing so that the damp issues don't arise in the first place.

I suspect the "architect" was briefed by you to get maximum floorspace out of the available footprint, and at low costbecause the budget was tight. Since it's a non habitable space he gave you a single brick construction. What he then specified to prevent damp ingress you haven't yet told us.

Now that your stuck with the situation, the question is what to do now.

1. Sort out the boundary wall issue, and if that allows then weatherproof above and on it, as suggested by various others.
2. Since I think you may always have damp issues even after the above, you are probably going to have to take measures internally. At the risk of upsetting the "don't put expensive chemicals on bricks" brigade, I don't think you've got much choice, unless you want to lose space internally.
Internal tanking systems are well specified and often used in this type of situation.





[/b]


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## Triggaaar (28 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":f7a0pb8t said:


> I can think of 4 or 5 ways that would have been better than what you ended up with. I have a sneaky feeling that you just got someone to draw up your plans, and that he wasn't an architect.


No, a propert architect practice, a proper company on the high street with many years expoerience. I'd be interested to hear how it should be done without losing any floor space.



> Your difficulty with overcladding the exposed wall is that you don't appear to have much of a roof overhang..........you are going to have to adjust your roof to make it overhang the new cladding.


I don't have any roof overhang, it's a parapet wall.


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## Dibs-h (28 Jan 2010)

Trig

You're stuck between a rock and hard place so to speak. 

I would be looking to obtain (or have made up) the drip bead\gutter channel and install that - you then have a choice of whether to render above it or fit some cladding. Whether that is wood or metal is up to you. I suspect that your neighbours may not like metal.

This should remove the bulk of the problem - I would still use some type of water proof render (Trousers suggested some to me - when I was sorting mine out) on the inside as a belts and braces measure.

If you go down the route of the drip bead\gutter - drain it somewhere, don't just have it running over the wall.

HIH

Dibs


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## Triggaaar (28 Jan 2010)

woodsworth":1s2jl5ke said:


> Are you telling me that an architect in the UK drew up a plan that had only one layer of brick? No air space, insulation and inner wall? I find that extremely hard to believe.


Yes. While it is attached to a new guest house and subject to building reglations, this single skin brick without insulation is part of a shed.

I haven't spoken to the architect recently, but they suggested putting battons on the inside (insulating between if desired) with something like ply over the battens. So the bricks would get wet when it rains a lot, dry out a bit when it's warmer. This part of the building also did not have a dpm, but then how many sheds do?



> Doesn't anyone come around to inspect buildings to make sure they adhere to a minimum standard?


Building regs have been round, they never raised any concerns, but then they often don't when they trust that the architect has designed it.


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## Dibs-h (28 Jan 2010)

woodsworth":3rzwtkez said:


> Are you telling me that an architect in the UK drew up a plan that had only one layer of brick? No air space, insulation and inner wall? I find that extremely hard to believe.


[/quote]

Just because we are used to our awesome MikeG - doesn't mean that everyone out there is the same. I'm not suggesting there are shoddy ones out there, but as with all things there will be folk who probably should find some other career as they probably aren't doing the current one (& the clients) justice.

Just my 2c worth.


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## woodsworth (28 Jan 2010)

Well so it seems then that he didn't know you wanted to use the space as a workshop? I have a shop, it's terrible, they used 8 inch blocks on a damp membrane. Who knows what the original use of the building was. But now it is useless as a workshop in my opinion. My plan is to pull down one wall at a time and frame a wood one. A wood framed wall isn't designed to like a masonry one that needs a gap for moisture to run down the back of the exterior. Six inches of a wood cavity wall that has the appropriate water proof cladding on it, and bobs your uncle. If you brace your ceiling joists you can knock that wall out, fix the drainage issues, put a good damp proofing system, and build a wall complete with external cladding and slid it in.

From what i have seen Mike might have some good advice on wood framed walls, and what cladding to put on it that is maintenance free. maybe vynl siding on the lower portion and then some nice cedar on the parts you see. I don't know.

The point to all this is people are so willing to build something as cheaply as they can without any regard to future use of the space. How much more would it cost to do it right vrs. pulling down what you got and doing it right? 

Or just don't put your workshop in that area. Use the guest house and have guests sleep in your house.


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## Triggaaar (28 Jan 2010)

woodsworth":1tldaybv said:


> Well so it seems then that he didn't know you wanted to use the space as a workshop?


No, I didn't even know I wanted to use it as a workshop.



> From what i have seen Mike might have some good advice on wood framed walls, and what cladding to put on it that is maintenance free.


I'd like to learn about these options. Making a wood frame wall within 2 inches of a boundary, and making it maintenance free is probably not that easy.



> The point to all this is people are so willing to build something as cheaply as they can without any regard to future use of the space.


I haven't even tried to do it cheaply. I've built proper foundations, a proper roof, and brick walls are not normally a cheap option.

The zinc/lead/whatever gutter solution is a bit of a bodge, but I can't think of anything better. So if I then render the top 3 feet of the wall, it should all be good. It doesn't sound like as much of a nightmare to me as everyone else here seems to think it is.


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## Dibs-h (28 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":1q7eyizw said:


> The zinc/lead/whatever gutter solution is a bit of a bodge, but I can't think of anything better. So if I then render the top 3 feet of the wall, it should all be good. It doesn't sound like as much of a nightmare to me as everyone else here seems to think it is.



I don't think it is a bodge - even if the mortar joints were perfect - the fact that the run off is going down the gap - how else would you resolve it, even if you were at the design phase, but the construction details (i.e. choice of materials, location, etc.) weren't going to change?

I think the gutter thingy is actually a very elegant solution (cost affective as well) that would work just as well with a clad wall as it would with a rendered wall. How different is it really from the box gutter at the parapet wall?


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## Triggaaar (28 Jan 2010)

I expect Mike could come up with a solution (ie, if we were starting from scratch) that could give me what I wanted, but the normal methods would've required either a thicker wall or a large gap around the building, and I wanted to avoid that.


Dibs-h":3cs0kiy7 said:


> How different is it really from the box gutter at the parapet wall?


Unless someone makes it for me, it'll be less neat


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## woodsworth (28 Jan 2010)

I think the gutter idea is very good to. It won't solve rising damp though. I've seen some very nice Zinc work, Some trucks have fabricating facilities right on them that will make it look like it was meant to be there. 

But it is only a gap measure. You will still have other damp problems and after reading through this thread a bit more i'd be worried about the walls in the guest house too. Unless those were drawn and built with that purpose in mind.

I guess at the end of the day you didn't know you wanted to use the space for something other then a damp vestibule. Just seems odd that anyone would think that building such a space for anything like that is a good idea. Its how others end up in the same situation your in. Buildings that aren't worth anything and in fact cause more grief then the value suggested on the assessment. 

This is probably why this thread has generated so much interest, it touches a nerve with anyone who has such a building that someone put up and sold it on collecting it's value when it really cost more then it's value to put it right.


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## Triggaaar (28 Jan 2010)

woodsworth":bm9h9yb4 said:


> I think the gutter idea is very good to. It won't solve rising damp though.


Why will I have rising damp? It's got a proper damp proof course.



> But it is only a gap measure. You will still have other damp problems and after reading through this thread a bit more i'd be worried about the walls in the guest house too. Unless those were drawn and built with that purpose in mind.


What other damp problems? They were designed and built with the intention of the building being fit to live in and last. I'm not sure what problems you're reading into. Why would rendering the top 3 feet only be a gap measure, what it the problem?



> Buildings that aren't worth anything and in fact cause more grief then the value suggested on the assessment.
> 
> This is probably why this thread has generated so much interest, it touches a nerve with anyone who has such a building that someone put up and sold it on collecting it's value when it really cost more then it's value to put it right.


Well I hope you're missing something, as that's not how I see the building.


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## Dibs-h (28 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":1w8j6dua said:


> Unless someone makes it for me, it'll be less neat



Even I would get someone to make it - I would only give it a go, if it was lead and the gap was wider.

Have a look on Google and ring round some fabrication places - might be worth having a chat with some of the local seamless gutter folk.


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## OLD (28 Jan 2010)

'Unless someone makes it for me, it'll be less neat'
Wickes do a very tough peel off and stick felt ( flat roofs )this could be applied to treated wood with the inclusion of there primer its a two felt system but the first is so good that could be sufficient or use two layers of it, worth checking out and easy to work with.


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## Triggaaar (29 Jan 2010)

Looks like it's only going to be £60 to get it made in aluminium, so I think I'll do that. Probably render above it, but will check my options. Not sure how to deal with the water at the end of the alu gutter yet, a new downpipe seems excessive, but is an option. Maybe I could make it work with just 1.5" waste pipe.


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## Dibs-h (29 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":18y7bfhc said:


> Looks like it's only going to be £60 to get it made in aluminium, so I think I'll do that. Probably render above it, but will check my options. Not sure how to deal with the water at the end of the alu gutter yet, a new downpipe seems excessive, but is an option. Maybe I could make it work with just 1.5" waste pipe.



No reason why it wouldn't - after all, it's not like it's a full size gutter.


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## Triggaaar (29 Jan 2010)

Alternatively I could put some sort of joint into the existing downpipes, like a strap on boss fitting.

I have a tiny issue though:
I've just been to check the size of the gap (and remove that half brick). The gap is bigger than I though, which is fine (I could even screw plastic guttering instead of aluminium). At the top it's about 4 inches. The bottom (between workshop and boundary wall) is now covered with leaves. I'll remove these with a pole, but my concern is if any leaves were to drop after my work is complete, getting them out again would be a nightmare. Maybe I just have to make my guttering affair prevent leaves dropping down the gap.


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## TrimTheKing (29 Jan 2010)

Please don't forget what Mike G said about the rendering. If, as you yourself have already said, there is no overhang (to speak of) to the end of the roof where do you propose to protect the top of any render?

You need to take the render up to the very top of the brickwork but this will leave the top exposed to rainwater sitting on the top of it and working its way down between render and bricks make your situation potentially worse than it is now.

Also, if the guttering fills the void then surely any leaves will settle in the guttering as there's no way for them to get past...


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## Triggaaar (29 Jan 2010)

TrimTheKing":3g02z589 said:


> If, as you yourself have already said, there is no overhang (to speak of) to the end of the roof where do you propose to protect the top of any render?


I don't know, good point, thanks. I'll have a look at what I can do.



> Also, if the guttering fills the void then surely any leaves will settle in the guttering as there's no way for them to get past...


Yes I'd be happy with that (I can empty the leaves from the gutter), but I'm not sure it'll nicely fill the void, it'll probably partialy fill it.


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## matt (29 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":2x62rrs5 said:


> Alternatively I could put some sort of joint into the existing downpipes, like a strap on boss fitting.
> 
> I have a tiny issue though:
> I've just been to check the size of the gap (and remove that half brick). The gap is bigger than I though, which is fine (I could even screw plastic guttering instead of aluminium). At the top it's about 4 inches. The bottom (between workshop and boundary wall) is now covered with leaves. I'll remove these with a pole, but my concern is if any leaves were to drop after my work is complete, getting them out again would be a nightmare. Maybe I just have to make my guttering affair prevent leaves dropping down the gap.



Agree re getting the guttering to block leaves falling down but I would also roll up some chicken wire to block all openings. It doesn't even need to be visible - can be pushed back from the face of the building leaving just a smaller area where leaves might accumulate but can easily be removed.


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## TrimTheKing (29 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":6o1ovxy6 said:


> > Also, if the guttering fills the void then surely any leaves will settle in the guttering as there's no way for them to get past...
> 
> 
> Yes I'd be happy with that (I can empty the leaves from the gutter), but I'm not sure it'll nicely fill the void, it'll probably partialy fill it.


Then matt's solution of chicken wire will work here too. Fold some chicken wire around the guttering but fill in the gap between guttering edge and boundary wall. It is stiff so should bridge the gap fine and you can pick the leaves off the tope without it interfering with the rain run off or blockingthe downpipe if you don;t get out there to clear them for a couple of weeks.


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## MikeG. (29 Jan 2010)

I'm loath to get involved, but you don't want any moisture down in that cavity, whether from the workshop, or from the garden wall. If you are going to go for a gutter solution, it should also act as a flashing such that water landing on top of the garden wall doesn't end up running down the gap.

Mike


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## Triggaaar (29 Jan 2010)

matt":20pxf2zm said:


> Agree re getting the guttering to block leaves falling down but I would also roll up some chicken wire to block all openings.


Sound good, thanks.



Mike Garnham":20pxf2zm said:


> I'm loath to get involved


Too late for that, you're in it up to your neck 



> you don't want any moisture down in that cavity, whether from the workshop, or from the garden wall. If you are going to go for a gutter solution, it should also act as a flashing such that water landing on top of the garden wall doesn't end up running down the gap.


I hadn't thought about water landing on the top of the wall. I am prepared to be wrong here, I realise you know more about these things than me, but it doesn't seem that bad. There is airflow around the building (although a gutter may effect that) and at the moment, with nothing at all stopping water going down the gap, there is no standing water in the building. There never has been. The walls can be damp to touch after heavy rain, so it needs fixing, but my feeling is that it could easily cope with a bit of water/moisture on the floor outside. I think small amounts of water should be able to soak into the grond.


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## TrimTheKing (29 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":3hzut7n0 said:


> I think small amounts of water should be able to soak into the grond.


Of course it _should_ but you need to be mindful of the amount of mortar that fell out during the bricklaying and whether that has created a 'bridge' between the brickwork and the wall. If this has happened then the water will run down the wall and track in across the bridge.

If you can jab a broom handle in all the way down the gap and hit soil then happy days, but I am definitely in agreement with Mike, if it was me I would most certainly be looking to stop any excess water getting down there. You will only be sorry if you don't and once you have it filled with toys you get flooded out...

You seem a little reluctant, but I think the guttering solution is a very elegant solution and I would have already kicked off in this direction.

Don't take the chance, that's my advice.


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## Triggaaar (29 Jan 2010)

TrimTheKing":21hd8u7q said:


> you need to be mindful of the amount of mortar that fell out during the bricklaying and whether that has created a 'bridge' between the brickwork and the wall


There's no bridge above dpc, but plenty below. The bricks below dpc will get drenched.



> If you can jab a broom handle in all the way down the gap and hit soil then happy days


Certainly not soil, it will be the concrete foundation which go right up to the boundary wall, but where the two meet water will slowly drain away.



> You seem a little reluctant, but I think the guttering solution is a very elegant solution and I would have already kicked off in this direction.


I'd prefer it didn't need it, but I have already kicked off. I only stated this thread 2 days ago, I've had 4 or 5 quotes on making the aluminium, I've got someone booked to do the rendering, and I'm now looking at just standard gutter (or 76mm) if they fit better.

I agree that if I don't do a good enough job I will be sorry. If I get the gutter sorted though, we will be talking about a small amount of water running onto the bricks below dpc, which I'd have thought is not a problem.

Thanks again for all the help.


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## MikeG. (29 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":1nnpl9q7 said:


> Mike Garnham":1nnpl9q7 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm loath to get involved
> ...



PM Sent


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## Triggaaar (29 Jan 2010)

Triggaaar":1m6lj1ej said:


> Too late for that, you're in it up to your neck


Just to be clear, that was not a serious comment. My build does not have any problems following any advice from anyone on this forum.


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## trousers (29 Jan 2010)

> Triggaaar wrote:
> Too late for that, you're in it up to your neck
> 
> Just to be clear, that was not a serious comment. My build does not have any problems following any advice from anyone on this forum.



I'm finding it hard to take you seriously Trig.
Maybe it's the intonation that messages get when written on a forum such as this, which don't truly reflect what the poster meant.
Mike is a truly helpful bloke and I'm very suprised that he's stayed with this thread as long as he has. 

I just feel there's some background here which you're not telling us.
For example, what did your "architect" specify for damp proofing measures on this build, especially wrt the problem that has so far lasted 5 pages here?
If it's a problem to you, your first port of call should be to the "professional" you paid to specify this lot in the first place. And although you apparently did ask "some time back" nothing seems to have come of it.
So have your "professionals" given you the elbow, or is it the reverse?
The more I read it, the more I think there was no architect in the first place, and now you've got a problem you've come to a woodworking forum to help you out for free. 
So if I'm wrong you can tell us all why you really went ahead with a scheme which anybody on this forum could have told you was going to be trouble, let alone an architect.


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## Triggaaar (29 Jan 2010)

trousers":1x90sk18 said:


> I'm finding it hard to take you seriously Trig.
> 
> Mike is a truly helpful bloke and I'm very suprised that he's stayed with this thread as long as he has.


I'm aware that Mike is very knowledgable and helpful, he was trying to help me with this a couple of weeks ago, and I understand that you are also very helpful to people on this site. I am quite shocked by your reply and don't understand where this mistrust has come from (on the 5th page of this I made one light-hearted comment to Mike, that's all). 



> I just feel there's some background here which you're not telling us.


No there isn't. I am a bit offended that you are assuming I am lying, which I am not, but I do appreciate that a lot of nonsense gets splashed around the internet, and that you don't know that this isn't an example of that, so I'll try not to be too offended. 



> For example, what did your "architect" specify for damp proofing measures on this build, especially wrt the problem that has so far lasted 5 pages here?


The problem has lasted 5 pages because as Mike said, it's not necessarily an easy one to fix. I built what my architect specified, and building regs signed the plans off. 



> If it's a problem to you, your first port of call should be to the "professional" you paid to specify this lot in the first place. And although you apparently did ask "some time back" nothing seems to have come of it. So have your "professionals" given you the elbow, or is it the reverse?


Until posting on this thread I wasn't aware that their was a problem with the guest house part of the build (ie, it is totally dry etc). I also didn't believe that the problem with the workshop was that bad. I thought it was damp and needed fixing, and I thought I might get better ideas on here on how to fix it than my architect would have. So I've only spoken to the architect about the problem with the shed (I didn't ask them to design it as a workshop) and they suggested I could put Vandex or similar on the inside of the wall. I've since discussed rendering the top 3 feet and catching the water that drips off which they think is a good idea. 

When designing the build I think my architect: 
a) wanted to get me building regs approval 
b) didn't care about my shed (I didn't ask them to) - although they specified a dpc for the shed, they didn't specify dpm (and when I say specify, I mean to get building regs approval, not that they recommended I didn't put in a dpm). 
c) assumed I was more bothered about getting the maximum width from my shed than it being completely dry (I am bothered about the width, but had no idea the single skin wall would be so damp) 
d) may have thought that the gap between the walls would not have been filled with concrete, and may have drained better. 



> The more I read it, the more I think there was no architect in the first place, and now you've got a problem you've come to a woodworking forum to help you out for free.


If I didn't have an architect I would have no problems asking the helpful people of this forum for free advice. I do have an architect, and I still think it's a good idea asking for some advice with my problem. My problem isn't that dis-similar to Dibs's workshop, where he built very close to a dry stone wall, and you recommended a product for him coat on his walls. 



> So if I'm wrong you can tell us all why you really went ahead with a scheme which anybody on this forum could have told you was going to be trouble, let alone an architect.


I'll send you a pm.


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## matt (29 Jan 2010)

That's that then... Can we get back to the more enjoyable challenge of helping solve the problem now rather than have what promised to be quite an interesting thread descend into futile finger pointing. The latter is quite boring.

----------------------------------------------- <- look, I've even drawn a line under it for everyone


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## Triggaaar (26 Oct 2010)

Well...

I fitted 4" gutter around the outside (joining existing downpipes), with an aluminium drip attached to the wall, which was then rendered. This appears to have done the trick as planned.

I've just emptied the workshop so I can insulate it, and I'd like some advice on that please.

Ceiling:
I plan to put some cuts in the roof breathable membrane, at the ridge, to help with ventilation. I then want to put about 170/200mm of rockwool type insulation between my ceiling joists, put a vapour barrier underneath, and then OSB.

Walls:
I don't want to lose any width, but I need to remove the cold wall to moisture condensing, so I was thinking of putting 1" battens on the walls (vertically) with some rigid insulation (maybe whatever's cheapest) either between the battens, or over them? and then OSB as the internal finish.

Hopefully I can use the same rigid insulation for the doors. I then need to put a fan at the back/top for some ventilation, paint the lot white, and hopefully that's it.

Any suggestions on whether that seems like a good plan will be appreciated

Thanks


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## Lons (27 Oct 2010)

Hi Trigg

I've read the thread with interest but like others I've been reluctant to comment as I too thought it "didn't seem quite right" and I didn't want to get involved.

I think you're a genuine guy looking for help and perhaps there was a breakdown in communication between you and your architect?

I'm puzzled by a few things:- :? 

If the building was subject to building regs ( I assume you required planning approval as it was within 1 metre of your boundary), then the BI would have suggested your floor should not be laid without a DPM in place (and in some areas subject to a radon barrier). Lack of floor insulation I understand but was shortsighted for little extra expense.

Your architect should be shot IMO for failing to point out the dangers of building so close to a boundary wall and of the 100% certainty of water penetration through a single brick wall. Worse if subject to driven rain!

You've been offered good advice so I won't add to that but IMO unless you do stop the ingress on the outside, you will never solve the problem entirely. If you do batten the inside, you would need a membrane and there is a danger of your fixings rusting in the wet bricks.

ALL BRICKS ARE POROUS to a greater or lesser degree, which is why dense bricks or blocks are used below DPC and why cavity walls were designed so that water would dissipate harmlessly down the inner surface of the external leaf. That's why there must be cavity trays over windows and doors and why the cavity must not be bridged.
Rising damp is a very real problem and why dpm must be linked to and under the DPC which should be minimum 150mm above ground level!

I'm not trying to criticize - just explain so please take my comments constructively. I'm a builder btw

cheers

Bob


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## Triggaaar (27 Oct 2010)

Hi Bob, thanks for the reply


Lons":2gij3rok said:


> perhaps there was a breakdown in communication between you and your architect?


There hasn't been - honestly, I'd just say if there had.



> I'm puzzled by a few things:- :?
> 
> If the building was subject to building regs ( I assume you required planning approval as it was within 1 metre of your boundary), then the BI would have suggested your floor should not be laid without a DPM in place (and in some areas subject to a radon barrier).


I have planning permission, and building regs. Most of the building was obviously spec'd with a DMP, got a DPM, and was all fine. This bit wasn't spec'd with a DPM because it's just a shed. It was spec'd with a DPC, and I put a DPM in anyway, but I didn't have too (building regs wouldn't care if a shed didn't have a DPM). I don't know what a radon barrier is.




> Lack of floor insulation I understand but was shortsighted for little extra expense.


If I were starting from scratch and wanted an insulated floor in the shed I guess I'd need to have the foundations lower, and screed on top of jablite or something, but that seemed like a lot of effort at the time for what was intended to be a shed.



> Your architect should be shot IMO for failing to point out the dangers of building so close to a boundary wall and of the 100% certainty of water penetration through a single brick wall. Worse if subject to driven rain!


Well I guess you're right, he should have forseen the problems and advised me.



> You've been offered good advice so I won't add to that but IMO unless you do stop the ingress on the outside, you will never solve the problem entirely.


As far as I know, the problem has been stopped. Rendered the outside bit that was subject to driving rain, and added a gutter. Before I did that work, I never got any damp of any sort in the main building, and I only got it on the walls of the shed. Now I don't get any. I'm just wanting to get the inside insulation done.



> If you do batten the inside, you would need a membrane and there is a danger of your fixings rusting in the wet bricks.


Well they're not wet any more - do I still need to use a membrane?



> Rising damp is a very real problem and why dpm must be linked to and under the DPC which should be minimum 150mm above ground level!


My DPM and DPC seem to be doing their job ok.

Thanks


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## Triggaaar (27 Oct 2010)

Maybe I should start another thread, as my question is a bit lost in all this old info.

I think I'm about to order some sheets of 25mm celotex (or equivellant) for the walls. So, for my shed/workshop walls (which are dry) should I:
a) Just put the celotex straight on the wall, with OSB on top
b) Put 25mm battens on the wall, with the celotext in between the battens, then OSB on top
c) Put 19mm battens on the wall, and then celotex and OSB over the battens, giving me a 19mm gap between the celotex and walls?

Thanks


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## Triggaaar (28 Oct 2010)

Nobody know the best way to insulate a single (half) skin brick wall?


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## Deejay (28 Oct 2010)

Hello Trig

Try over on The Wood Haven and see if Mike Garnham replies

Cheers

Dave


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## Triggaaar (28 Oct 2010)

Thanks for the reply Dave.

I expect quite a few people here know the best way to do it, I'm sure I've read it before, but I can't seem to find the same situation with the search facility. I've got the gear arriving tomorrow, so unless I'm stopped in my tracks I'll be using 2" battens with 50mm insulation in between.


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## tisdai (28 Oct 2010)

Hi Triggaaar

I am having a similar problem, the difference with me is hat i have a Concrete Panelled Garage, that is single skinned as well, i sort of hijacked a current thread about it. The following was the end result, I am going to build an inner frame and just leave a small gap between the wall and the inner stud wall, the concrete on the inside of the garage i will be using a Liquid DPM on, might work for youafter you have sorted the outside of the wall out.

But remember to place a DPM or Plastic sheet between the inside board of the workshop and the studwork and insulaion. It was explained to me that the DPM will avoid any moisture from the workshop getting through and causing the insulation to get damp.




> Ok think i got it right this time, here's hoping lol
> 
> ie;
> 
> ...



This is the actual thread it is in

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/t-g- ... 62-15.html

Hope it helps in some way m8.

Cheers

Dave


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## davin (28 Oct 2010)

Dont know if it`s any help, 
Just looked a the Uckfield/Brighton friday-ad.
And someone was selling celotex sheets quite cheap, (in the tools and diy section on the website)

Davin


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## Jacob (28 Oct 2010)

Yes to vapour barrier on the warm side (under the finishing board but over the insulation).
Emergency solution to my cold workshop prob; oil filled radiator. No it doesn't heat the workshop but it does heat my knees and thighs if I lean against it, having sited it in front of the bench. 
Or better - can stand astride it if I'm doing a stationary job such as marking up.
I wondered about tying it on to a leg and having it on castors so it'd stay between my knees all the time.
Not joking - it works!
Then if you had a big apron like a skirt all around it etc etc :roll:


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## bg (28 Oct 2010)

Mr Grim,
I think you may be better off with a hair drier attached to a hose that is put up one trouser leg. Of course you will need some elastic on the bottom of said trouser leg to stop the hot air escaping and to direct it up the trouser leg. Do not elasticate the other trouser leg however to allow the hot air to circulate as trapped air could inflate the trousers to a dangerous degree. :shock:


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## Triggaaar (28 Oct 2010)

Thanks all for the replies


tisdai":6dmagy81 said:


> I am having a similar problem, the difference with me is hat i have a Concrete Panelled Garage, that is single skinned as well, i sort of hijacked a current thread about it.


That sounds pretty similar, thanks.



> build an inner frame and just leave a small gap between the wall and the inner stud wall, the concrete on the inside of the garage i will be using a Liquid DPM on, might work for youafter you have sorted the outside of the wall out.


I've seen inner walls used in other threads here - looks like a nice solution, but I don't have the space. Outside wall appears to be fixed.



> But remember to place a DPM or Plastic sheet between the inside board of the workshop and the studwork and insulaion. It was explained to me that the DPM will avoid any moisture from the workshop getting through and causing the insulation to get damp.


Are you using soft fibre style insulation? If so, you need to keep it dry. With closed cell insulation I don't think it's as important, but I guess I probably should have some vapour barrier (otherwise I'll get condensation around the insulation and outside wall). I've just finished insulating the ceiling, and I put spare dpm under the insulation, then OSB under that. I thought OSB was supposed to prevent vapour going through it, but I haven't ceiled the gaps (dpm behind) and with rockwool above I thought it was fairly important.



> Hope it helps in some way m8.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Yes, still not sure if I need the void, but I will add a vapour barrier, thanks.



davin":6dmagy81 said:


> Dont know if it`s any help,
> Just looked a the Uckfield/Brighton friday-ad.
> And someone was selling celotex sheets quite cheap, (in the tools and diy section on the website)
> 
> Davin


Oo, think I'm too late, but I'll have a peek, thanks.



Mr G Rimsdale":6dmagy81 said:


> Emergency solution to my cold workshop prob; oil filled radiator. No it doesn't heat the workshop but it does heat my knees and thighs if I lean against it, having sited it in front of the bench.
> Or better - can stand astride it if I'm doing a stationary job such as marking up.


I know what you mean - my PC is in a conservatory, and it's really cold in winter, so I straddle an electric rad. Hopefully I'll be able to heat the workshop enough, but if not, I shall do as you do.


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## Jacob (28 Oct 2010)

bg":1c53p1j0 said:


> Mr Grim,
> I think you may be better off with a hair drier attached to a hose that is put up one trouser leg. Of course you will need some elastic on the bottom of said trouser leg to stop the hot air escaping and to direct it up the trouser leg. Do not elasticate the other trouser leg however to allow the hot air to circulate as trapped air could inflate the trousers to a dangerous degree. :shock:


Hmm. I see the logic. Have you tried this yourself? (risk of exploding trousers :shock: )
Strange coincidence - I was listening to some tapes of The Goon Show earlier today. :lol:


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## tisdai (28 Oct 2010)

> I've seen inner walls used in other threads here - looks like a nice solution, but I don't have the space. Outside wall appears to be fixed.



You might only need to leave an inch space between the 2, personally i would rather do this than have it touching the outer concrete wall, just incase and i will be using solid insulation between the studs.


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## Triggaaar (28 Oct 2010)

tisdai":oqfjqvu4 said:


> You might only need to leave an inch space between the 2, personally i would rather do this than have it touching the outer concrete wall, just incase and i will be using solid insulation between the studs.


Any idea what the gap does? I'm getting very protective over my inches. My workshop tapers from 6'6" down to 6', and that's before I lose at least 2.5" with insulation and OSB. Much thinner than I'm happy with, but the guest house took priority.


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## tisdai (28 Oct 2010)

For me personally it is to keep the 2 apart from each other. If i do get damp on the outer concrete wall i don't want ti carrying through or touching the inner wall and it will help with ventilation arround the outer edge of the insulation.


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## cmwatt (28 Oct 2010)

I'd phone someone like Kingspan (or Knauff) and ask about their Dry Lining solutions. Check out their website: http://www.insulation.kingspan.com/uk/k18.htm

Craig.


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## Triggaaar (29 Oct 2010)

cmwatt":3hula1nm said:


> I'd phone someone like Kingspan


Good idea, and thanks for the link.

As per the link (and downloadable pdf), they said the gap was basically in case any moisture were to come through the single skin wall. If it was cladded on the outside etc, you wouldn't need the gap. I've gone without the gap, since I didn't have the requred battens and I think I'll be ok. Add if it were to get damp, I'd just unscrew it and fine the problem, possibly refit with battens.

Thanks all for the help.


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## devonwoody (30 Oct 2010)

Emigrate to Australia would be cheaper in the long run. :wink:


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## Triggaaar (30 Oct 2010)

devonwoody":150qsy92 said:


> Emigrate to Australia would be cheaper in the long run. :wink:


Well I don't seem to be having any problems. I haven't had any damp for 6 months (ie, since I fixed the outside of the wall).

I've now insulated the inside and fixed OSB everywhere, and my next job is to add some ventilation. I'd like to try an idea that Mike Garnham suggested:
a high level extract fan on a timer and/or humidistat, and a low-level inlet on the opposite wall (which I think will be my front doors), and also possibly wiring up a couple of 100W light bulbs that switch on when the internal temperature drops.

Any idea how to get the lights working off a temperature gauge?
And any recommendations on an extractor fan with a humidstat that would work in this situation (it's not like it'll be as humid as a bathroom, so I don't know if it needs to be particularly sensitive).

Thanks


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## Alex (30 Oct 2010)

Why lights bulbs? They're not efficient heaters at all and placeing is problem, hot air rises. Why not get tube heaters, IP55 rated very safe, low consumption, can be placed low on wall and easily rigged to a wall thermostat or simply plugged into timer plug.
http://www.greenhousepeople.co.uk/acces ... se_heater/ 
If the buildings been dry for several months and not likely to get damp I wouldn't bother with ventilation.


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## Triggaaar (31 Oct 2010)

Alex":fl23fxu7 said:


> Why lights bulbs? They're not efficient heaters at all and placeing is problem, hot air rises.


Thanks for that link, looks good. Mike Garnham suggested light bulbs, possibly because it's easy to wire up with a fan, I don't know (I'll let him answer for himself).



> If the buildings been dry for several months and not likely to get damp I wouldn't bother with ventilation.


I'm not expecting damp from the outside, but condensation is always a problem.
Correct me if I'm understanding this wrong: If the air is fresh, and it's just a tiny bit warmer inside than outside, then the air shouldn't reach its dew point. But if warm air comes in during the day, and that same air then cools overnight, the air can't then support the moisture it has in it, and you get condensation on your tools etc.

Air circulation might be the most important thing, is a fan with a humidstat the most suitable way to stop condensation in workshops?


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## Alex (31 Oct 2010)

Without going in to the realms of an air heat exchange unit, bringing cold air into the building will require heating otherwise when warm meets cold you'll get condensation. Convention of uncovered heaters will give you relative circulation. If you can make building relatively air tight I'd use a dehumidifier with humidistat or timed plug.

Edit- on second thought maybe heat recovery units are the way of the future as you have dehumidifier in build, ventilation and circulation to boot. Add a few tube heaters and thermostat and you've got ultimate solution. Here small wall unit on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HR100W-Bathroom-K ... 3a5e068048
I think small wall unit is diyable. Maybe something like pc fan with separated air paths with thin alu or such bang tray and drain Bob's your uncle. Might have to have ago.


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