# hand cut bridle joint



## russ_1380 (30 Sep 2009)

Afternoon all.

These last few days I have been trying to do some hand cut joints; corner lap joint and corner bridle joint.

I am using a tenon saw and chisel.

I can cut the wastage off with the saw on the bridle joint, but then I have to tidy it up with a chisel. When I do this, I struggle to keep the area nice and flat, leaving gaps or a loose joint. Plus there is limited room to fit a chisel into the slot.

Does anyone know of any links to good websites that detail how to cut straight and flat with a hand saw? I have been told that a skilled woodworker can cut these joints with saw alone, with no need to tidy up with a chisel. I need to brush up my handcutting skills.

Many thanks

R


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## Anonymous (30 Sep 2009)

Russ

try cleaning with a plane - e.g. shoulder plane


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## russ_1380 (30 Sep 2009)

cheers Tony

I also tried using a friend's thinner kerf blade. That seemed to be more easy to control.

I think I will invest in a dovetail saw or Japanese item plus lots and lots more practice.

Do many people on here use Japanese saws?


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## Racers (30 Sep 2009)

Hi,

Bridle joints are very difficult to do right, harder than dovetails in some ways, lots of practise is needed, just wait until you try a mitered bridle joint, they do look good when you get them right.





Thats the best corner :wink: 

I use japanese saws and western back saws, the japanese are good but a lot depends on you, can you borrow one to try out?


Pete


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## matthewwh (30 Sep 2009)

When paring a joint with a chisel it's generally a good idea to have a squared up piece of scrap clamped to the outside face to guide the beginning of the final cut. Pare down to just a fraction above the line (the closer you can get it the less force you will need for the finishing cut and therefore more control you will have on the one that counts).

In the case of a bridle joint (and many others) you can undercut to ensure a perfect fit. Once you have arrived at your layout line, take the tip of the chisel just past the edge of the timber and lift the handle by a couple of degrees and pare towards the centreline of the timber and repeat from the other side. By hollowing out the middle of the joint you can be sure that nothing will impede the mating of your perfectly prepared edges - which is the bit that everyone will see. 

It's not cheating, it is absolutely correct and normal practice for handwork, the whole idea that everything should be at precisely 90 degrees is a symptom of over reliance on power tools.

If you are not already used to western saws then I would give Japanese ones a try, much easier to achieve really accurate results and if you don't have to un-learn something before you start you have a head start on those that do.


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## russ_1380 (30 Sep 2009)

cheers lads

Lots of good tips there. I forgot to add (you probably guessed by now; I'm a beginner).

That lap joint is excellent, I would be extremely proud if I could achieve that level of neatness by hand.

I have used a Japanese saw once but only very quickly, I remember it felt a lot nicer to use than my tenon saw. After reading about them, I will invest in one for joint making.

I will try that hollowing out technique tomorrow.

As far as Japanese saws go, what tpi do you recommend? I want this saw specifically for joint work and eventually fine joints such as dovetails.

Thanks

Russ


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## russ_1380 (30 Sep 2009)

I was thinking along the lines of this maybe?

http://workshopheaven.com/cgi-bin/cp-ap ... anese+Saws


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## matthewwh (30 Sep 2009)

Hi Russ,

Why not try one? If you're not chuffed to bits with it on the first cut, just send it back and I'll give you a full refund including all shipping costs.


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## russ_1380 (30 Sep 2009)

nice one

I didn't realise that was your place  

I'll have a look tonight, I also saw you did a razor gents saw, I think 40tpi.

Would this be another option? I'm thinking of starting the cut with this (get it all nice and straight) and then move on to something courser.

R


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## Ironballs (30 Sep 2009)

Don't be too hard on yourself when you're trying to cut a corner bridle, as the others have said it is one of the hardest joints to get right and much of your work is on show.

However, if you hone your skills on joints like this you'll be well set up for the future. Tool wise I'd just go for a good tenon saw and a nice sharp chisel - do you have a good method for sharpening your tools?


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## russ_1380 (30 Sep 2009)

Hi Ironballs

Yeah I'm at college so have been shown how to use a tormek and a manner of other gear.

I'm going in tomorrow to keep practicing, I'll get the hang of it one day


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## Anonymous (30 Sep 2009)

russ_1380":kw3yqzan said:


> cheers Tony
> 
> I also tried using a friend's thinner kerf blade. That seemed to be more easy to control.
> 
> ...



I used to use Japanese saws until I used a good quality european saw. With hard wwods, you are most definitely better off with a good european saw (not the B&Q dross etc.)

i still have 3 Japanese saws and do use them, but rarely and not in very hard woods


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## dunbarhamlin (30 Sep 2009)

The silly person (i.e. me) proof way to true a malcut lap joint (provided it has been left thick) is with a router (tea and bicuits or electric powered)
In their absence, my fave tool is a float, which will also work for the female part of bridle joints (a chisel reground as a scraper works the same) 

Treat the joint the same as a tennon for cutting - first establishing the kerf across the end grain and then extending this down one side of the long grain at a time. This approach means you can concentrate on only one component of 'straight' at a time (straight across first, and then straight down) - thanks to Woodbloke for sorting me out with this.

Unless your workpieces are tiny, a razor saw would not be efficient - ideal is usually to have as few as eight teeth in the cut at any time.
I cut some bridle joints for a bench a fortnight ago (4" square stock) and used a 4 1/2 tpi rip saw - no clean up required thanks to the above technique.

Cheers
Steve


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## woodbloke (30 Sep 2009)

Hand cut bridles are difficult to cut 'cos all the parts of the joint are 'exposed'...there's nothing hidden, so any mistakes stand out a mile. In some ways they're more difficult to cut accurately than dovetails. These joints were recently cut in teak, using a LN cross cut tenon saw (a rip pattern tooth would have been better) and there was an element of fettling with a chisel to make them fit:











The really big advantage of bridle joints though is that cramping pressure can be applied:






*directly* over the top and at the sides to pull up the joint - Rob


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## Ironballs (30 Sep 2009)

Have we coined the phrase "Joint Tart" yet Rob :wink: 

Nice tight bridle that


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## woodbloke (30 Sep 2009)

Ironballs":lqm0q0qz said:


> Have we coined the phrase "Joint Tart" yet Rob :wink:
> 
> Nice tight bridle that


Well at least they didn't go through the bloody bandsaw Damian :lol: :lol: - Rob (with a nice tot of Laphroaig quarter cask in hand :lol: )


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## matthewwh (30 Sep 2009)

russ_1380":rtvsvsug said:


> I also saw you did a razor gents saw, I think 40tpi.
> R



Way too fine, these are OK for cutting very small pieces of beading, inlay, sleepers for hornby railways etc. 

The Gyokucho saws give an extremely high level of performance per £ and are very easy to get on with. If you're after something you can fall head over heels in love with though, I've recently commissioned these from Thomas Flynn.

Nice joints by the way Rob!


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## woodbloke (30 Sep 2009)

matthewwh":2nsthn7c said:


> russ_1380":2nsthn7c said:
> 
> 
> > I also saw you did a razor gents saw, I think 40tpi.
> ...


Matthew - try telling than to Robert Ingham...he uses a Zona razor saw to cut dovetails - Rob...still having 'sippers' of the Laphroaig :lol:


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## Ironballs (30 Sep 2009)

I'll see your Laphroaig with a Bishop's Finger and raise you an Old Peculier


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## woodbloke (30 Sep 2009)

Ironballs":37pfleqr said:


> I'll see your Laphroaig with a Bishop's Finger and raise you an Old Peculier


Damian - sippers almost gone...probably time for another wee one before the wooden hill  - Rob


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## Ironballs (30 Sep 2009)

I'm on my hols so the night is young ccasion5:


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## woodbloke (30 Sep 2009)

woodbloke":2esi8js6 said:


> Ironballs":2esi8js6 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll see your Laphroaig with a Bishop's Finger and raise you an Old Peculier
> ...


...or two (days leave tomorrow  ) - Rob


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## Ironballs (30 Sep 2009)

Nice work, blimey, you know when you're drinking OP. Can't cut tight bridles after this stuff :shock:


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## woodbloke (1 Oct 2009)

ZZZZZZZZZ - Rob... Laphroaig all gone


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## russ_1380 (1 Oct 2009)

Thanks guys

Today I used Japenese saws and the results are getting better.

I'm still researching saw technique as this is what is letting me down on all hand joints, mainly cutting straight and perpendicular (I know these are fundamental).

I think I'm 'thinking' abut my sawing too much, maybe this is what is putting me off a straight line. I do tend to go really slow and stop now and then blow dust out the way and see how I'm doing, maybe this is what is making my kerf line wobble off course.

I will try using a scrap block next to my piece when paring (good tip thanks) and also when sawing vertically.

Any more tips on how to saw straight, it's driving me mad! 

Dunbarhlim

What do you mean by a float?


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## Ironballs (1 Oct 2009)

Make sure your stance is right too, you want to be facing the bench, legs apart to give you good balance, perhaps one foot forward, then arrange your upper body so that your arm moves like a piston across the saw cut. You only want your arm to move, don't grip the saw too tightly, no white knuckles here and let the saw do the work. This is where a brass backed tenon saw can be better than a light Jap saw, the weight of the saw gives you the downward pressure you need and you just concentrate on going backwards and forwards.

Like any job it's about building muscle memory and that only comes from doing something over and over again


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## matthewwh (1 Oct 2009)

Rather than using a block to guide your saw, try observing the reflection of the timber in the side of the blade. If the reflection is square and level (so it looks as though the wood carries on) then your cut is plumb. 

The reflection magnifies any error by a factor of 2 so it is very accurate. You can also use it to estimate angles to within a degree or so, again everything is doubled so when you see a right angle the cut is at 45 degrees.


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## David C (1 Oct 2009)

Rob,

That is a splendid looking table & joints. If that is a granite top with ammonites showing, what is the straight gold line please?

I think the key phrase is "some fettling with a chisel". I doubt there are many of us who could cut a precise bridle joint straight from the saw.

Robert ingham does use a Zona razor saw, but for dovetails in about 5mm stock.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## matthewwh (1 Oct 2009)

Reading Ironballs' post reminded of a PM I sent to someone about sawing technique, this was specifically aimed at English backsaw use but the principles are exactly the same for Japanese saws. It may be of use to others too so I'll post it here, apologies if any points are repeated from other people's posts:

Backsaws are unidirectional, they cut straight down with the weight of the back providing all of the downward pressure required for the cut. If you want to cut at an angle, always reposition the timber rather than canting the saw.

Your posture is important. Stand at 45 degrees to the bench with your feet a little over a shoulders width apart. now turn the foot that is closest to the bench outwards so that it aligns with the direction of the cut. Imagine a continuous planar surface, like a big imaginary sheet of card, continuing out from the edges of the saw blade. Your wrist, elbow, shoulder and dominant eye should all be in this plane, lined up with the blade of the saw. Rest your other hand on the top of the workpiece.

Think of the amount of the saw's weight that you are holding as the accelerator pedal. If you are holding all of the weight it is at tickover, if the wood is bearing all of the weight, it is at full throttle. When you start the cut you need to be taking almost all of the weight and just allowing the teeth to gently graze the surface. As the cut becomes established, you can relax your arm slowly, feeding on the power as you allow more and more weight to be borne by the timber. If you are accelerating too fast the saw will judder - equivalent to wheelspin. Never apply any additional downward pressure yourself.

As you start the cut you have about 10 or 12 strokes to determine its direction. After that the saw will be guided by the kerf (the groove you have already cut) any attempt to steer the saw after that will make it bind in the cut. To steer the saw during the first dozen strokes, look at the reflection of the timber in the side of the sawplate. If your wood is horizontal and your saw vertical, then it will appear to continue straight on through the blade. Because it's a mirror image any inaccuracies are doubled, so it's a very accurate way of assessing whether all is square or not. If the wood is canted over at 45 degrees you will see a right angle as long as the saw is plumb, canted at 22.5 you will see a 45 etc.

Having established the cut, try holding the handle of the saw between thumb and forefinger and just pushing it back and forth, it should cut a perfectly straight line. All you are providing is the forward and back motion, the back of the blade is providing the downward pressure and the kerf is doing the steering. Once you are up and going the saw takes care of itself in the vertical and horizontal planes, so the only movement you need to supply is back and forth.

If you still find that the cut is wandering, try cutting three or four kerfs next to each other. If all the cuts show an identical error the problem is with the saw, not your technique. If you are getting inconsistent errors it is a technique issue - this test is the sawing equivalent to getting a grouping of shots when zeroing a rifle.


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## head clansman (1 Oct 2009)

hi russ

if i may be allowed to offer some advice , razor sharp tools , and practice ,practice ,practice , it's mastering your tools , it will come together in the end . hc


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## Ironballs (1 Oct 2009)

You should have seen Mk 1 David. Rob invented a new method of finishing


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## russ_1380 (1 Oct 2009)

thanks guys

It's good to see so many fellow woodworkers helping a complete novice.  

i can't wait to get back in the shop tomorrow and try a few more of these techniques and get in some more practice. 

I'll dig my tenon saw out again and retry that before I write it off for a replacement Japanese saw, it is brand new after all. It is a Garlick one, I believe the same that Axminster stock for around £40.

The best plan for me tomorrow is to just keep cutting lines on scrap pieces and see if my technique is improving.


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## Ironballs (1 Oct 2009)

I have that saw and there's nothing wrong with it, an excellent tenon saw. Get practising with that one and you'll be fine


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## Rain426 (1 Oct 2009)

I have recently started to get back into woodworking (doing a C&G furniture course at the local college). At the moment we are just using ropey old pieces of pine, resin and knots all over the place. 

When I started the course about a month ago, my saw cuts were going at all kinds of weird angles, but after the 3rd week, the cuts have started getting a lot better. I have bought a japanese saw and that really helped, so much so that I can sometimes get away without tidying with a chisel, it leaves such a nice smooth finish.

The joint that I have found hardest by far though is the bridle joint, just trying to work out where the high spots were and making it fit nice and tight was really making my head ache. The tip about chiseling down towards the middle of the joint was a really good one though, I will try that next time I think!

I still have a long way to go, but some of the advice in this thread has been really helpful, thanks for the original post Russ, and thanks everyone else for the advice!


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## russ_1380 (1 Oct 2009)

hi Rain

Welcome to the forum. 

It sounds like you and I are in the same boat, albeit you are a few weeks ahead of me. It's reassuring to hear that you have improved.

I'll use this as a motivator mate  

Give me a few days and i'll post an update on my improvement


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## jhwbigley (1 Oct 2009)

It will all come together in the end Russ, don't forget the three pas.

i've been useing tools for years, now i'm learning how to use them proply!

John-Henry


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## woodbloke (1 Oct 2009)

David C":k53bavx9 said:


> Rob,
> 
> That is a splendid looking table & joints. If that is a granite top with ammonites showing, what is the straight gold line please?
> 
> ...


David - the top is a fossilized octagonal top and the individual sections are separated with brass strips, the table will soon be in F&C. I also agree about cutting a bridle joint straight from the saw...I think a degree of careful fettling with a chisel is always going to be needed to make the joint fit. 
I've had a look at the Zona saws on the Chronos site and they seem *very* good value for money. I'm contemplating purchasing a couple (at the price they sell them for, it's not worth re-sharpening) to cut finer dovetails for things like trays in jewelry boxes and the like - Rob


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Oct 2009)

Hi Russ

Here are a couple of tips to saw straight and create a clean joint ..

1. Matthew's suggestion of watching the reflection of the saw is a good one. I use this myself.

2. You will be more likely to cut straight if you are following two dimensions rather than one. That is, cutting on the upper and a side marked lines similtaneously, rather than just the upper line .. 

I would start cutting at the joining corner, so I can follow both lines.

3. When marking the lines scribe as deeply as possible, then undercut this with a chisel (from the waste side!) to form a slight fence. Run the saw blade against this fence.


4. I would split most of the waste out with a chisel. To clean up you can use a chisel, a rabbet or a shoulder plane, or my preference .. a router plane (this will ensure that the base is parallel to the top of the stretcher). David Charlesworth does a nice tutorial on this in one of his books. 







Marking out ..






Chiseling out (you can make out the saw kerfs) ..






Result ...











Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Pekka Huhta (2 Oct 2009)

It is easier to clean up the waste if you don't even try to cut it parallel to the bottom of the joint. I usually cut them so that I cut the area near to the saw cuts first, leaving the center up. This way you get a neat, slicing cut across the grain instead of trying to push straight through. It's also pretty easy to slice off the center if you continue with a bit skewed cut and pare away a bit angled to the grain.






Sawing may be handy sometimes (it also helps to level the bottom of the joint), but in many cases I think it can be easily avoided with this trick. 

Pekka


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Oct 2009)

> It is easier to clean up the waste if you don't even try to cut it parallel to the bottom of the joint.



.... unless you saw a series of kerfs first. 

Hi Pekka, if you look closely at the paring I am doing above, you will see the kerfs. Of course, pare to the middle from both sides - not across the total - unless you enjoy breakout 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Pekka Huhta (2 Oct 2009)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> > It is easier to clean up the waste if you don't even try to cut it parallel to the bottom of the joint.
> 
> 
> 
> .... unless you saw a series of kerfs first.



Sure  That's why I said:



> Sawing may be handy sometimes (it also helps to level the bottom of the joint), but in many cases I think it can be easily avoided with this trick.



The best world of both is to saw the kerfs _and_ use a slicing cut, but I'm a lazy man and have learned to avoid the kerfs this way. It's just extra work sawing them if you can cut the joint without. 


Most of the work I do is less demanding than hi-end furniture from exotic woods, so I do skip extra work phases as much as possible. In fact I got the inspiration of showing that trick from a pair of small rafter frames (?) I just made a few days ago for a small canopy over a front door. 







That's pretty far from fine furniture :wink: As I use a lot of softwoods and my techniques are closer to timber framing than furniture carpentry, I have a bit of a different approach.

I don't even know if that trick could be used with hard and gnarly exotic woods, probably the kerfs are much better approach for them. But for softer woods that works fine.

Pekka


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## Ironballs (2 Oct 2009)

Pekka it may be outdoor carpentry in a softwood but those pieces are still very well made with some lovely design touches. You'll have to post a pic in situ


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Oct 2009)

Pekka, they are very pretty and I shall be stealing your design without a doubt! 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Pekka Huhta (2 Oct 2009)

Thanks! The canopy is a "pair" for a new balcony I built this summer. The canopy is still on my porch being painted, but I'll start a new thread for both of them when I get everthing finished - next week maybe. 

Pekka


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## bugbear (2 Oct 2009)

Pekka Huhta":f9vp4wiz said:


>



I make no comment on the joinery, but the shaping and proportions are superb!

BugBear


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## head clansman (2 Oct 2009)

hi pekka

really really nice work, i do it that way as well, i've just come back from holland from visiting my daughter in almere buiten in here straat (street) there all the houses have a very similar styled gallows brkt support to the canopy over there rear doors .hc


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