# 1st fix nail gun



## quintain (15 Mar 2021)

I am looking for a 1st fix nail gun, either UK mains or battery NOT air powered everything considered, used, reconditioned, new even ugly as long as it works and the price is low.


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## ptturner (15 Mar 2021)

Personally I use a hitachi nt65 which I picked up for a steal at £70 used in very nice condition. Its gas cartridge based which is great apart from the noise and should be used in a ventilated space as it works on combusting a flammable gas so there are some fumes, nothing to worry about though. I think it is as good as the much more expensive pasolades, however I dont use it all day every day so perhaps the couple of hundred £s extra is worth it for serious pro carpenters.

The hitachi also takes the pasolade consumables which is very handy as they are easily available from most retailers.

I cant comment on the battery nail guns, but I would expect to have to charge the battery frequently due to the large amount of kinetic energy needed to drive the nails in.

I have attached a pdf manual rather than describe the main features, however if you can find a working pasolade for less than £100 than I wouldnt pass it up.


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## Lons (15 Mar 2021)

If you do a search on the forum there are a number of threads which will be of interest.

I had gas Paslode 350 for several years, got a DeWalt 18v cordless (4 amp batteries) and promptly sold the Paslode, I've had the deWalt for a number of years now and in fact used it yesterday to fire several hundred 90mm and 50mm nails while erecting a fence, the battery lasts a long time between charges. It's slightly heavier than the Paslode but I certainly wouldn't swap back.
My mate puts up a lot of fences and after looking at my nailgun last year he bought a second hand one off facebook same but later model with 2 speeds and 2 x 5amp batteries for about £90 from memory.


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## quintain (15 Mar 2021)

Thank you ptturner & Lons
I wish I could find a battery nail gun about the price you quoted.

Are my thoughts on nail length of 3" or so (75mm) suitable for a roofing job I am considering (my 12m x 8m garage/workshop).
Also, I will be building a small shed for garden tools later this year probably using T&G into 3" sq framing.

I am trying to avoid a compressor gun as I do not have a compressor and I see it as something else to buy and maintain.

Most of my work these days are either in my w/shop or around it, hence my thoughts on an elec mains tool.


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## Lons (16 Mar 2021)

I use 3 nail sizes same as when I had a building company and built quite a few roofs. 50mm, 65mm and 90mm which are common sizes. Nearly all mine were/are galvanised ringshank.


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## quintain (16 Mar 2021)

Lons...thank you.
I will continue to look for a gun but since I have limited use for one these days I cannot justify a high cost, if you or others come across a 1/2 decent one at a reasonable price I would welcome a private message.

*and yes* " where the hell did the years go? ". I have 20yr old knees when I am getting down and much-much older ones when I am getting up.

Regards
Richard


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## TheUnicorn (16 Mar 2021)

a few options on gumtree.com, including a paslode for £70, which 'needs servicing', bit of a gamble.


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## quintain (17 Mar 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> a few options on gumtree.com, including a paslode for £70, which 'needs servicing', bit of a gamble.


Thanks TheUnicorn,
Gone when I contacted the seller.
I am still looking and welcome any help.
Regards
Richard (quintain)


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## Lons (17 Mar 2021)

Yeah Richard like most things there's a compromise, I couldn't justify buying one now I'm retired but am pleased to have it when needed. If you only need one for a few days is it worth checking out hire cost?


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## quintain (17 Mar 2021)

Lons said:


> Yeah Richard like most things there's a compromise, I couldn't justify buying one now I'm retired but am pleased to have it when needed. If you only need one for a few days is it worth checking out hire cost?


Yes about hiring, 1hr ago I checked locally £20 a week I supply gas and nails for paslode.
Probably that is the way I will go BUT if I see a gun at a giveaway price I will be tempted.

Best Regards
Richard


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## TheUnicorn (17 Mar 2021)

quintain said:


> Yes about hiring, 1hr ago I checked locally £20 a week I supply gas and nails for paslode.
> Probably that is the way I will go BUT if I see a gun at a giveaway price I will be tempted.
> 
> Best Regards
> Richard


that seems a very good price, I'd do that, as it doesn't sound that you can justify the cost of a new machine and it is pot luck what will come up used


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## quintain (17 Mar 2021)

TheUnicorn said:


> that seems a very good price, I'd do that, as it doesn't sound that you can justify the cost of a new machine and it is pot luck what will come up used


Price is now hardening up:
Correctly for costing purposes ignoring cost of nails.
Also ignoring time to collect & return nailer to hire company about 30mins each journey (collect & return) = 1hr per hire = Total 2hrs time usage during 2021

1st week hire (about mid April) re-roofing garage/workshop = £34.00 
1 week hire £20 + Vat = £24
Gas cylinder £10 or so thereabouts
Total (ish) £34.00

2 x week hire (about May-July) for probable garden shed build
2 x £24 inc VAT = £48
Gas (hopefully able to use previously purchased cylinder £0.00

N.B I probably cannot carry out the above tasks in less than 3 weeks.

Total hire cost for paslode 350 nail gun in 2021 £34 + £48
Total 2021 hire cost £82.00 with perhaps only a part gas cylinder left on workshop shelf.

An extra cost of £20-£50 would give me an infrequently used but available tool on my workshop shelf.

I am again considering at hopefully a modest cost (if available) to purchase a nailer. 

Best Regards
Richard


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## mikej460 (17 Mar 2021)

The other thing to bear in mind Richard is that the fuel cells on a paslode have a limited life and the gas can go stale causing misfires or no fires. So given your anticipated usage if I were you I would seek out a battery operated one. You might find it more cost effective to buy a 'body only' and then buy a 4 or 5 AHr battery. Given your short bursts of usage one battery might be ok. I have a paslode that I've had for years and it is extremely useful but I would opt for a battery powered one now just because of the gas. But check the weight of battery operated ones, I've heard the Dewalt is a bit of a brute to hold in position.


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## quintain (17 Mar 2021)

mikej460 said:


> The other thing to bear in mind Richard is that the fuel cells on a paslode have a limited life and the gas can go stale causing misfires or no fires. So given your anticipated usage if I were you I would seek out a battery operated one. You might find it more cost effective to buy a 'body only' and then buy a 4 or 5 AHr battery. Given your short bursts of usage one battery might be ok. I have a paslode that I've had for years and it is extremely useful but I would opt for a battery powered one now just because of the gas. But check the weight of battery operated ones, I've heard the Dewalt is a bit of a brute to hold in position.


Thank you...will a battery only which I would prefer give the 'clout' I occasionally need for 3" + nails.
But would the battery die a total death on me with my limited use.
I would consider a UK mains operated nailer if such was available.
I realise I am being a PIA to a lot of helpful people on this forum.


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## gog64 (17 Mar 2021)

That’s a fantastic rental price & would make it an easy decision for me. Unfortunately my local hire place (HSS) charges £72.36 including VAT per week and can’t supply gas / nails. The only place locally that seems to stock gas is screwfix at £35.29 for 2. At your local prices I’d bite their hand off for my infrequent use! If you don’t mind me asking, is it a national chain you’ve got a price from?


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## TheUnicorn (17 Mar 2021)

quantain, 

yours maths do seem to lean towards the value of a purchase if you find the right gun for the right money. If you need it now, maybe hire as a one off and keep an eye out for a good purchase in the coming months??


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## mikej460 (17 Mar 2021)

quintain said:


> Thank you...will a battery only which I would prefer give the 'clout' I occasionally need for 3" + nails.
> But would the battery die a total death on me with my limited use.
> I would consider a UK mains operated nailer if such was available.
> I realise I am being a PIA to a lot of helpful people on this forum.


Today's li-on batteries are pretty bomb proof. I've had the same 1 x 4Ahr and 1 x 5Ahr Dewalt battery for years, they have a charge meter on them that tells you if the battery is close to running out. After hundreds of charges they are still performing as well and don't lose their charge if not used for a good while. I'm not sure if you can get a mains operated first fix gun, I've never come across one.

Having said all this a lot of trades people are selling their paslodes as they're moving to cordless now, so you might be able to pick up a paslode 350 a lot cheaper and take the risk of having to replace a partly used gas canister say once a year (depends on the use by date on the canister, a lot of sites state this date on their adverts, Screwfix ones always seem to have a 2 year life but you should always check). Paslodes fire up to 90mm which is ideal for first fix framing work.


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## quintain (17 Mar 2021)

gog64 said:


> That’s a fantastic rental price & would make it an easy decision for me. Unfortunately my local hire place (HSS) charges £72.36 including VAT per week and can’t supply gas / nails. The only place locally that seems to stock gas is screwfix at £35.29 for 2. At your local prices I’d bite their hand off for my infrequent use! If you don’t mind me asking, is it a national chain you’ve got a price from?


Hi...I think !!!! GAP Plant & Tools Hire - Whitehaven, West Cumbria.
I think because I phoned 3 x local suppliers and I think it was their price. They do not supply gas or nails.
My gas £10 incl free P&P price was based on ebay search 'paslode im350 gas'
Your local hire price is horrible.


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## quintain (17 Mar 2021)

mikej460 said:


> Today's li-on batteries are pretty bomb proof. I've had the same 1 x 4Ahr and 1 x 5Ahr Dewalt battery for years, they have a charge meter on them that tells you if the battery is close to running out. After hundreds of charges they are still performing as well and don't lose their charge if not used for a good while. I'm not sure if you can get a mains operated first fix gun, I've never come across one.
> 
> Having said all this a lot of trades people are selling their paslodes as they're moving to cordless now, so you might be able to pick up a paslode 350 a lot cheaper and take the risk of having to replace a partly used gas canister say once a year (depends on the use by date on the canister, a lot of sites state this date on their adverts, Screwfix ones always seem to have a 2 year life but you should always check). Paslodes fire up to 90mm which is ideal for first fix framing work.


Let me tell you a story.
Once upon a time a (not so) elderly (perhaps not so) gentleman owned a villa in Florida.
He carried out all his own maintenance when he and his wife visited annually from Sep to Feb each year.
He bought battery drills and each year the battery was bug**red when he returned and tried to use it, he bought a cheap mains drill and never used a battery drill again in Florida.
BUT perhaps batteries have improved since he and his wife sold the Florida villa 10yrs ago.

That was my history and concerns about an unused battery not frequently used.

Again thank you and all others for your help.

Best Regards
Richard


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## mikej460 (17 Mar 2021)

quintain said:


> Let me tell you a story.
> Once upon a time a (not so) elderly (perhaps not so) gentleman owned a villa in Florida.
> He carried out all his own maintenance when he and his wife visited annually from Sep to Feb each year.
> He bought battery drills and each year the battery was bug**red when he returned and tried to use it, he bought a cheap mains drill and never used a battery drill again in Florida.
> ...


I understand your scepticism but battery technology has moved on a great deal since then! However I don't think you will find one at the price you want to pay anyway, that's why I'm suggesting a 2nd hand paslode. If you do find a cordless 1st fix for not a lot of money it may be dodgy!


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## Lons (17 Mar 2021)

Hi Richard
I have 3 batteries all 18v x 4 amp as I also have a drill that takes the same ones, my other DeWalt drills are old 14.4v ni-cads. The batteries last a long time for me and get fairly heavy use as I said earlier I used my nail gun at the weekend and fired several hundred nails to put up a rail and board fence probably 20% were 90mm galves and the rest 50mm. The battery was showing 3 bars as full though not freshly charged and when I finished was still on 2 bars and far from being discharged, that's normal for me. Only one stuck nail in all of that which is quickly and easily ejected on the dewalt, it used to happen regularly with my paslode otherwise perfect.
The gun has more than enough clout to sink the 90mm nails below the surface certainly in softwood and that is adjustable by turning a knurled collar on the nose of the gun so as far as I'm concerned power and battery life are definitely not an issue and my batteries are a number of years old now.

As far as weight is concerned I had the opportunity to compare the two guns side by side in a practical situation and the DeWalt definitely felt heavier than the paslode but imho unless the user has weak wrists it isn't an issue as the gun is fairly well balanced.

Just my personal opinion of course but I'm happy enough with mine to say I would be very reluctant to part with it.


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## gog64 (17 Mar 2021)

One thing that might be worth mentioning. I’ve been thinking about buying the Dewalt, so have done a little research and there are THREE versions of the nail gun all with the same product number. Version 1 was apparently problematic. Version 2 has a completely different flywheel / driving mechanism and much better. Version 3 is the current version with incremental improvements that I haven’t got any details on. So, if buying second hand, we’ll worth making sure it’s not a version 1 (it’s printed on the side of the tool).


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## Lons (17 Mar 2021)

gog64 said:


> One thing that might be worth mentioning. I’ve been thinking about buying the Dewalt, so have done a little research and there are THREE versions of the nail gun all with the same product number. Version 1 was apparently problematic. Version 2 has a completely different flywheel / driving mechanism and much better. Version 3 is the current version with incremental improvements that I haven’t got any details on. So, if buying second hand, we’ll worth making sure it’s not a version 1 (it’s printed on the side of the tool).


I hadn't seen that but in fairness should say that mine is very definitely a version 1. I know that because I have one of the very first prototypes which I tested for DeWalt prior to launch, I'm not the only forum member to have done that. My gun has ( so far) been faultless, maybe I'm just lucky. My mate who bought s/h last year must have version 2 as his is 2 speed where mine is single.


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## quintain (17 Mar 2021)

Lons said:


> Hi Richard
> I have 3 batteries all 18v x 4 amp as I also have a drill that takes the same ones, my other DeWalt drills are old 14.4v ni-cads. The batteries last a long time for me and get fairly heavy use as I said earlier I used my nail gun at the weekend and fired several hundred nails to put up a rail and board fence probably 20% were 90mm galves and the rest 50mm. The battery was showing 3 bars as full though not freshly charged and when I finished was still on 2 bars and far from being discharged, that's normal for me. Only one stuck nail in all of that which is quickly and easily ejected on the dewalt, it used to happen regularly with my paslode otherwise perfect.
> The gun has more than enough clout to sink the 90mm nails below the surface certainly in softwood and that is adjustable by turning a knurled collar on the nose of the gun so as far as I'm concerned power and battery life are definitely not an issue and my batteries are a number of years old now.
> 
> ...


Lons...thank you again
Best Regards
Richard


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## Peterjgray (18 Mar 2021)

quintain said:


> I am looking for a 1st fix nail gun, either UK mains or battery NOT air powered everything considered, used, reconditioned, new even ugly as long as it works and the price is low.


There’s a guy in Bracknell ( or was) who repairs serviced snd sells Paslode guns. He was very helpful to me selling and subsequently servicing mine. Not sure if he is around given Covid etc but if you want I will give you his number


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## quintain (18 Mar 2021)

Thank you Petergray...yes please to his number either openly or by private message or phone me NUMBER REMOVED BY rICHARD
Thank you


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## Lons (18 Mar 2021)

Hi Richard
I'd suggest that you remove your 'phone number from a public forum or you may well get a load of nuisance and sales calls.
Bob


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## DBT85 (18 Mar 2021)

I bought the dewalt battery one for my build and it was absolutely faultless. Didn't even use one of the two batteries. Sold it on after I was done for maybe £120 less than I paid for it? Only to get rid quick tbh and that was still cheaper than hiring one for the amount of time I ended up needing it.


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## quintain (18 Mar 2021)

Lons said:


> Hi Richard
> I'd suggest that you remove your 'phone number from a public forum or you may well get a load of nuisance and sales calls.
> Bob


Thank you


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## quintain (20 Mar 2021)

OOOKay
I am now changing my mind and I can understand all persons correctly thinking "make your bl**dy mind up".
However, with excellent help from persons on this forum, I realise I do not necessarily want what is generally called a 1st fix nail gun; i.e. 50-90 mm nails.
I consider I need a 16 gauge nail gun giving me nail lengths from (about) 1 1/2"-3" (30mm to 70mm)
I am asking the kindly Mr Google to give me selections.
*Nail gun-16 guage-30-70mm-battery-not gas-not compresser-with avaiolble replacement parts-low cost.*
BUT if any one on this forum can help on this new & revised specs I would be thankful.

Embarrassed Richard watching England v Ireland at 3 each En3 Ir 10


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## quintain (2 Apr 2021)

I have purchased a second hand Dewalt DC 618 via Ebay.
I am happy that the 16 gauge nails lengths from 32-63mm will satisfy my requirements.
The gun works wonderfully and (not v important) has a good appearance.

The gun will be used but it will also sit on a hook for long periods.
Ques1: should I leave the battery plugged into the gun or will the battery more quickly discharge.
Ques2: is the DC618 a brushed or brushless tool, i.e. do I need to consider replacing armature brushes.
ques3: should I recharge the battery after every use even short usage or wait until the battery shows it is getting low i.e. inbuilt lights frequently flashing.

BTW; my decision to go along the Dewalt route was as a 'non-daily' user to avoid the purchase of a compressor and/or the need for gas cartridges (Paslode) and the possibility of the cartridge being empty when I infrequently needed the gun.


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## JobandKnock (22 Apr 2021)

IMHO any 1st fix nailer for not a lot of money is risky if you aren't familiar with the tool. I'm on my second cordless, this time a Hikoki NR1890 which replaced a 2-speed dewalt DCN692that had done 5 years. If you buy a DW avoid the earlier 1-speed model (DCN690) as they can struggle to sink.90mm nails even when fairly new and check that your intended purchase will actually sink 90mm ring nails into softwood - inability to do so can indictate a bent drive pin or weak return springs (both self fixable - at a price). The Li-Ion batteries should do 5 years in trade, but probably no more, based on my own experience (Makita and DW) and that of colleagues

In gas nailers you may well find that bargain needs new seals and a complete strip down and thorough clean out (using brake fluid cleaner) to "decoke" it. Cordless nailers don't need this at all. For some reason gas nailer batteries don't last anywhere near as long as ordinary cordless tool batteries and are ridiculously expensive for what they are. The chargers aren't long lived either. Gas nailers can be finicky with a number of issues causing problems, such as blackened battery connections (caused by arcing), dodgy/leaky/out of date gas, fan and igniter issues, etc. I've had Paslodes that have gone through igniter boards (plus one Senco which did the same) whilst Senco and Rawl guns (they come from the same factory?) are prone to the microswitch in the top of the gas canister housing getting broken (at which point they want you to spend £140 for a new handle unit as they won't sell you a £3 microswitch). I still live with 3 no. Rawl/Senco guns of varying ages for price work (where we have guys on who don't have their own guns) and can strip and service them pretty quickly, but a lot of guys can't or won't do it meaning that second hand guns are often "goosed". Larger firms also get their guns as part of deals where they buy, say, 100k nails and the vendor throws in a gun for free. These get passed around a workforce who don't look after them simply because they don't own them, so they can be ropey after as little as 6 months. All I am saying is to be very sceptical of cheap second hand gas nailers, especially at a time like now when jobs are chasing tradesmen, unlike last summer when we were in lockdown and work was scarcer.

On a practical note, nails with gas cost more than nails alone (a key reason to go away from using gas if you are an independent tradesman). Another thing is that some cheaper nails, especially Champion in my experience, come with gas which seems guaranteed to clog up your gun and require a premature strip down - the gas canisters contain not only gas but also a lubricant oil, a bit like a 2-stroke engine needs

Edit: and as you've now gone 2and fix instead what I have just written...


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## JobandKnock (22 Apr 2021)

quintain said:


> The gun will be used but it will also sit on a hook for long periods.
> Ques1: should I leave the battery plugged into the gun or will the battery more quickly discharge.


Unlike gas guns there is no flashing light to discharge the battery so it can be left on the gun (with gas guns you are advised to take the battery out even if going for lunch)



quintain said:


> Ques2: is the DC618 a brushed or brushless tool, i.e. do I need to consider replacing armature brushes.


They are brushed (this is old technology having appeared around 2003 or 2004) but the motors are hardly stressed so brushes and bearings should last a long time. What does kill them is getting lubricant on the drive pin which can then contaminate the drive flywheel (causing slipping) - same goes for all the new generation DW guns, though 



quintain said:


> Ques3: should I recharge the battery after every use even short usage or wait until the battery shows it is getting low i.e. inbuilt lights frequently flashing.


The batteries are NiMH technology and I found when I used them that they could de elope "memory" when recharged too frequently

In fact the weak point of the 1st generation DW 2nd fix guns was the battery technology used. Never had a battery last more than about 3 years in trade use (I had 16ga and 18ga guns before going to the 2nd generation DW which are on Li-Ion). The only other thing which fails on them are the pair of rubber "bungees" (return "springs") which are cheap, but a bit of a pallaver to replace, although doable oneself


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## Lons (22 Apr 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> If you buy a DW avoid the earlier 1-speed model (DCN690) as they can struggle to sink.90mm nails even when fairly new and check that your intended purchase will actually sink 90mm ring nails into softwood - inability to do so can indictate a bent drive pin or weak return springs (both self fixable - at a price). The Li-Ion batteries should do 5 years in trade, but probably no more, based on my own experience (Makita and DW) and that of colleagues



As I said in an earlier post my experience is different, I'm not saying there isn't an issue generally as I can only base my opinion on my own gun. I'd need to look to find the date but it was a good few years ago when just before DeWalt first brought the 1st fix cordless to the UK market I was given one of the prototypes to review and keep, it served a couple of years fairly heavy use and occasional since I retired, it still works perfectly as do the 4 amp batteries that came with it though the batteries also get used on my drills so aren't sitting deteriorating.

So the gun is a very early version, single speed, old technology batteries and most importantly it sinks 90mm nails of any type without difficulty and I can sink the heads into softwood (fence posts for example) effortlessly. My mate who puts up a lot of fences borrowed mine before buying his own second hand a later 2 speed model with 5 amp batteries and he told me he's noticed no difference in performance.
Mine could be an exception and I'm lucky so maybe the only answer is to test a gun before buying to make sure you get a good one.


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## AJB Temple (22 Apr 2021)

There is a known issue with early DW 1st fix guns. My supplier also has a repair shop and when I bought my 2nd fix battery DW he steered me away from 1st fix for this reason. DW then dealt with it. The battery DW are excellent in my experience. Used to have a Paslode. The service guy at my supplier reckons most problems are caused by absence of cleaning, but they will be history before long as battery tech has come such a long way. 

To OP, if you are using it for roof construction ? then the 2nd fix gun will be insufficient.


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