# Leaking shower cubicle - found the cause (possible cowboy co



## Estoril-5 (23 Dec 2016)

So one job I had pencilled in to do over Xmas was the shower cubicle as it was leaking. We've been in this house for 4.5 years and never had to do it before.

So I set out removing all the old sealant (which was a pain in the neck) and then quickly realised why the skirting boards were absolutely rotten! I'm pretty sure you shouldn't have a gap this big but it was just completely filled with silicone!

In the pics you can see the rotten skirting (who puts skirting in a bathroom anyway)?

Question is how do I fix it? Overload with silicone? Some kinds of mortar or concrete? I have no idea.... So this is where I need your advice.

Here's some pics 

















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## lurker (23 Dec 2016)

Is the shower tray plastic?

Mine had a bit of bounce in it and created a gap
The plastic feet underneath had broken


Get one of these
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... ROKL5A1OLE
For when you re mastic

Use a paint brush to apply bleach into the cracks and the black mold will dissappear in 24 hours


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## Lons (23 Dec 2016)

Not clever.

Personally, I'd take off the bottom row of tiles so I could get at the wall behind and repair it, I guarantee it will need it! then fit an upstand like this: http://www.showersealsdirect.co.uk/showersandbathseals or even just plain plastic angle, well siliconed in then refit the tiles. May need to udjust the size slightly. The old tiles just need soaking overnight in a bucket of water and the adhesive scrapes off.


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## Estoril-5 (23 Dec 2016)

Oh man, I thought it might have been a relatively easy fix.

Was thinking of filling the larger gap with a sand/cement mix to void the gap and then silicone all around it with mapei silicone. Don't really want to start removing tiles if i can help it.

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## Lons (23 Dec 2016)

Estoril-5":1igky7k0 said:


> Oh man, I thought it might have been a relatively easy fix.
> 
> Was thinking of filling the larger gap with a sand/cement mix to void the gap and then silicone all around it with mapei silicone. Don't really want to start removing tiles if i can help it.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk



You could do that but it will be a bodge you might regret sooner rather than later, if you do that then don't use sand / cement mix as not suitable, better to fill with waterproof filler or all silicone.

I've fitted and repaired hundreds of showers and seen this many many times - shocking really, in some cases the floorboards had rotted as well I remember one bungalow where I had to replace a 2 metre section of floorboards in the adjoining hallway and rebuild part of the wall behind the shower.

Doing it properly isn't as bad as it seems, the tiles should come off easily using a flat scraper - carefully - as the wall behind will be shot, while the tiles are soaking the wall can be repaired then just retile, grout and silicone, doesn't take long.

Bob


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## graduate_owner (23 Dec 2016)

Different problem with me, but - As a keen DIY person I have fitted several showers and they nearly always leak around the door. In my current house we have 2 over bath showers which leak at the hinge. Silicone is great, but I can't silicone the hinge and allow it to move. Does anyone havs expefience of this? Sorry if this highjacks the thread - it is partially relevant.

K


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## Estoril-5 (23 Dec 2016)

Lons":3mzmqxqe said:


> Estoril-5":3mzmqxqe said:
> 
> 
> > Oh man, I thought it might have been a relatively easy fix.
> ...



How would I go about repairing the wall?


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## NikNak (23 Dec 2016)

> Personally, I'd take off the bottom row of tiles so I could get at the wall behind and repair it, I guarantee it will need it! then fit an upstand like this: http://www.showersealsdirect.co.uk/showersandbathseals or even just plain plastic angle


 totally agree.... if you're going to 'fix' it then 'fix it right....' dont go and do another 'cowboy' job and bodge it with more silicone or what ever. Plus... if it were me... i'd take the tile (and a foot of skirting) the other side of the screen off as well, just to have a look at how far the water damage has gone.... you'd be surprised  :shock: 

Come on... its Christmas :ho2 :deer do it right (hammer) you know it makes sense :wink:


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## skipdiver (23 Dec 2016)

Bottom row of tiles look darker which could indicate that they are soaking up water from behind. I'd remove them and make good damaged areas before re-tiling and sealing with good quality sealant like Dow Corning 785. I used Plumbers Gold when i redid mine recently and it's good stuff.


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## porker (23 Dec 2016)

+1 on removing the bottom row of tiles. Is the wall a stud wall? If so, it may have been tiled onto plasterboard. If so I would cut it away (it will probably be wet anyway) and replace with some cement board like Aquapanel and tile back onto this. I've had to redo so many bathrooms and showers in properties I've owned over the years. Bodging with silicon won't work and you'll feel a lot better if you do it right. I always back onto cement board in shower cubicles rather than plaster board now.


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## Estoril-5 (23 Dec 2016)

It's a brick wall and that's what's concerning me when you say repair it.

On a side note what's the best way to remove tiles without breaking them.

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## skipdiver (23 Dec 2016)

If the tiles are wet, then they will come away easy enough if you can get a scraper behind them. If the wall is rendered brick, then you can re-render or attach aquapanel to the brickwork if you have the depth.


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## porker (23 Dec 2016)

To remove the tiles it really depends how well they are adhered. I have had them that are almost ready to drop off and others are stuck so well I haven't been able to get them off in one piece. (On a side note I have found sometimes that spare tiles are left under the bath). 

I would rake out the grout. You can get a little carbide tipped hand tool to do that or carefully with a multitool. Then you need something to carefully remove the tiles. Sometimes it is easier to remove with the backing (probably some plaster in your case) than try to get the tile off clean. I have also found that a wall paper steamer can soften the adhesive. Use something with a wide thin blade like a stiff scraper. A screwdriver is likely to chip the edge of the tile. Put on old towel or blanket in the bottom of the tray before you do this otherwise you risk chipping the tray if the tile pops off unexpectedly. 

Once off you will need to remedy the surface you are going to replace the tiles on. There are several ways you could do this but probably the easiest if you can't plaster is to bond some cement board to the brick and go from there. Also I would use a good quality silicone as I have found cheaper ones not to last as well and resist mould.


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## tomatwark (23 Dec 2016)

I fixed a shower with this kit https://www.byretech.com/acatalog/showe ... seals.html

When I took it out:4 years later it had not leaked


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## Estoril-5 (23 Dec 2016)

So on the advice received on here I decided to remove the first row of tiles.

After scoring the grout the first three literally fell off! The fourth one I'm going to tackle with the dremel.

It's wet behind there let me tell you! I think it's player board behind the tiles, there's a dark brown wet layer behind the tiles and I think this could be the paper backing of the plaster board.

Here's some pics, any more I go /help is much appreciated.











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## Lons (23 Dec 2016)

Exactly what I said and well worth doing properly, I've seen that so many times and much much worse. Just a reminder, I note a wood chisel in the pic, if the last tile is stuck don't use that or you'll likely crack the tile, a flat slightly flexible scraper will remove it with ease.

If the plasterboard paper is shot the probably the plaster as well and whilst it's possible to stabilise that I personally would always elect to cut it out and replace with a new section (unless it's a "egg box" type wall with no timber in which case it's a little more difficult but still possible by inserting thicknessed wood into the wall cavity. If you want to do it properly then replace the plasterboard with a cement tile backer board instead. Fix with screws btw.

Anyway, carefully scrape off the wet layer first to see what it's like before making that decision.

Bob


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## skipdiver (23 Dec 2016)

Possibly wet plaster on render that you have. Plasterboard would probably have disintegrated by now. Give it a poke and see what happens.


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## Estoril-5 (23 Dec 2016)

Too late lons, managed to get the final tile off but managed to crack the pipper.

Thinking to remove the next row up to see the extent of the water damage, I gave a little poke and went through the top paper layer, plaster and to the back paper layer which was wet!






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## Lons (24 Dec 2016)

Estoril-5":2d3ye3qs said:


> Too late lons, managed to get the final tile off but managed to crack the pipper.
> 
> Thinking to remove the next row up to see the extent of the water damage, I gave a little poke and went through the top paper layer, plaster and to the back paper layer which was wet!
> 
> ...



Ah well at least you know the extent of the damage now.

If yo don't have a scraper btw a good substitute is an old panel saw or an old bricklayers trowel with the end squared off. I used to buy a couple and cut off the top 3rd, very useful especially if you didn't need to save the tiles as you can use a hammer on the bent metal the fits in the handle and cut the tiles off with muinimal damage to the subsurface.

Bob


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## petermillard (24 Dec 2016)

Possibly a bit late, but a multitool with a carbide blade is very good for breaking the grout line between tiles.

HTH Pete


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## NikNak (24 Dec 2016)

The worst affected area 'seems' to be to the right of the cubicle.... can you get the tile off on the right hand side that abuts the door frame too.?

Plus (not wanting to scare you at xmas...) if the waters traveled 'up' the wall, then it WILL have traveled down too... just sayin'


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## porker (24 Dec 2016)

That looks like a plastered wall rather than plasterboard which is what I would expect on a brick wall. As NikNak states it looks like the left hand side is fairly dry but I would probably want to take the tile on the next row above off to see how far the damp has got. 
What a lot of people don't realise is that grout is often porous and with an unsuitable backing, will in time get damp and blow the tiles off.
I would also expect the water to have tracked below the tray as well but I guess access will be difficult but depends which room is below this.


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## Estoril-5 (25 Dec 2016)

The garage is underneath and has plastered unpainted ceiling, no sign of water damage but then again it is hard to see on an unpainted ceiling .

I think the tray may have dropped in the corner where the gap is the largest. Now getting a bit worried what state the joists must be in [DISAPPOINTED BUT RELIEVED FACE]

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## porker (26 Dec 2016)

I have seen joist damage before once and it had clearly been leaking for years but even then it wasn't a difficult fix. If it were me I would probably cut out a section in the ceiling to take a look if it is in the garage. Would probably be quite easy to make an 'inspection hatch' to tidy up and maybe access the waste fitting if you ever needed to.

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## woodpig (26 Dec 2016)

We had a leak like that in our shower. It needed new joists and a new floor. Shower units are a great source of work for builders once the damage has been found.


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## Lons (26 Dec 2016)

woodpig":1twvlllj said:


> We had a leak like that in our shower. It needed new joists and a new floor. Shower units are a great source of work for builders once the damage has been found.



I'd agree with that having been a builder before retirement however not a job I relished at all as invariably smelly, messy and damned awkward to get at most of the time.
Plastic baths and shower trays are a major cause as they are too flexible and often tiled and siliconed with the bath empty and therefore unloaded.

In one case in a bathroom that had been left far too long, the owners were very lucky that the bath complete with water and occupant hadn't come through the ceiling. :roll: They were pretty shocked as it was above a corner where their toddlers play pen was located.

Bob


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## Estoril-5 (27 Dec 2016)

Definitely plasterboard ontop of brick wall, finished off with a skim.

So do I cutout the bad section of plaster board and replace with cement board?







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## woodpig (27 Dec 2016)

I used Aquapanel on the last bathroom refit I did. Dead easy to use.


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## Estoril-5 (27 Dec 2016)

woodpig":2v80oia2 said:


> I used Aquapanel on the last bathroom refit I did. Dead easy to use.


How did you fix the aqua panel to the wall?

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## Estoril-5 (27 Dec 2016)

Here's where we are at the moment 






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## woodpig (27 Dec 2016)

Estoril-5":1vv6ytuo said:


> woodpig":1vv6ytuo said:
> 
> 
> > I used Aquapanel on the last bathroom refit I did. Dead easy to use.
> ...



In my particular case it was screwed to battens but check out the Knauf site for fixing solutions.

http://www.aquapanel.com/solutions/knau ... AgwC8P8HAQ


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2016)

Mmmm..wonder if Aquapanel is the same stuff that I got suckered into buying having believed the hype of "score'n'snap". More like ''score'n'strain" "rescore'n'strain" "rescore'n'ohs*** it's snapped again in the wrong place". Never has my angle grinder been put to better use.


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## davem62 (27 Dec 2016)

Aqua panel is just cement based board and cut with an old saw


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2016)

davem62":39cj97q7 said:


> Aqua panel is just cement based board and cut with an old saw



But their marketing hype boasts about 'simply scoring it with a Stanley knife and snapping it' !


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## Lons (27 Dec 2016)

RogerS":2baykl8g said:


> davem62":2baykl8g said:
> 
> 
> > Aqua panel is just cement based board and cut with an old saw
> ...



Yebbut, as said Roger, it's easier with an old panel saw.

Best way of fixing to the brickwork as you need to bring to similar level as the remaining plasterboard is to use wall board adhesive, it stiks like the proberbial to a blanket just put plenty of dabs on the wall and press / knock into place.
I don't know if it's recommended by the manufacturers but take it from me, it works.

Bob


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## davem62 (27 Dec 2016)

Hi Bob 
I read somewhere not to use board adhesive after i had already used it ,but as you say it sticks like xxxx ,and I've never had any problems with fixing that way
David


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## Jake (27 Dec 2016)

Wedi and the like (foam cored, waterproofed cement/mesh faced) are much better than Aquapanel as they are actually waterproof. Aquapanel is water resistant so it won't fall apart as it lets the water through, but it is not of itself a water barrier - you would have to tank it afterwards.


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## Lons (28 Dec 2016)

davem62":1d7fdye2 said:


> Hi Bob
> I read somewhere not to use board adhesive after i had already used it ,but as you say it sticks like xxxx ,and I've never had any problems with fixing that way
> David



I've fitted loads over the years David and likewise never had a callback so I'm happy with the method. As a sole trader before I retired, my reputation was everything so I was very careful and whenever possible used tile backing boards. Where only plasterboard was in place I always put a couple of coats of pva on the walls just for extra protection and when installing new plasterboard on to brick or block walls always dot and dabbed with wallboard adhesive though I probably was more liberal with the adhesive than most.



> Wedi and the like (foam cored, waterproofed cement/mesh faced) are much better than Aquapanel as they are actually waterproof. Aquapanel is water resistant so it won't fall apart as it lets the water through, but it is not of itself a water barrier - you would have to tank it afterwards.



As he's tiling over it doesn't matter though i would still pva it personally

Bob


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## Estoril-5 (28 Dec 2016)

I had an opening in the garage ceiling because I needed to replace the shower tray trap.

I took a quick video but can't upload due to the size but I've taken some screenshots (ignore the play button in the middle of the pictures)

You can see water marks in the two joists you can, can't access the others without making more holes in the ceiling.

I think the joists are ok as they don't look rotten, might just need airing out.











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## porker (28 Dec 2016)

Looks from the pictures that there is no rot so it should just dry out and looks fine as far as I can see. As Lons says, using board adhesive should be OK to fix the paneling. I have used it in the past with no problems. Not sure about PVA myself, there are definitely different views on this. Personally I wouldn't use it unless I was sure it was thin enough to get into the substrate. If it forms a skin it can cause whatever is on top of it to peel away. (I use PVA mostly for re skimming artex ceilings and the bond is really strong). The manufacturers of Aquapanel state that there should be an air gap behind their board as they can permeate water but you should be OK. I have never used one but there are tanking kits available that would be a belt and braces approach. Any shower I have installed over the last 10 years has not had water being blasted onto a tiled surface so I have not bothered but I think for an en-suite I am doing which gets used heavily I will probably fit a tanking kit. 

Jake makes a good point about a waterproof panel. I will look into that. It would seen a waterproof solution would be better. I cut Aquapanel with an old handsaw. The teeth get blunted so don't use your decent sharp one.


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## Skeety (29 Dec 2016)

Had this in my bathroom, fixed as follows:

Remove tiles
Cut out all damaged plasterboard and let the timber dry out.
Replaced plasterboard with Hardibacker cement board using stainless countersunk screws.
Tanked with a Mapei tanking kit for the joints and then sealed the Hardibacker board with the Mapei sealer.
Fitted the sealing kit ( http://www.showersealsdirect.co.uk/seal ... 5-kit.html ) 
Retiled and grouted.

No sign of any leak after 3 years, thats with a 2 head monsoon power shower.

As has been pointed out the "score and snap" on the cement board doesn't really work. I used a diamond blade to cut mine but was using 8 boards as I had to bring the wall back true due to the moisture damage , had a 25mm run out horizontally between the ends.

HTH,

Jon.


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## graduate_owner (4 Jan 2017)

Regarding cutting Aquapanel, I have cut it very easily by scoring with Stanley knife on one side, and snapping it over a batten ( scored side upwards). The cut edge followed the scored line, but was raggedy in the 'depth' and needed tidying with the Stanley blade.

K


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## Estoril-5 (5 Jan 2017)

I ended up using my circular saw to cut it to size.

Done in minutes

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## Chippyjoe (5 Jan 2017)

Hi,

Wonder if the people having trouble cutting Aqua Panel, are actually using Hardibacker board which does the same thing but is a lot harder to cut.
Aqua Panel is easy, cuts easier than timber with a saw.

Also was told by Topps Tiles that if you use PVA as a sealer, then BAL would not guarantee any of their products.

Mark.


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## Lons (5 Jan 2017)

Chippyjoe":2vnk06cl said:


> Also was told by Topps Tiles that if you use PVA as a sealer, then BAL would not guarantee any of their products. Mark.



That's interesting Mark.

Seems a bit strange as pva properly applied sticks very well and gives a decent impermeable surface which is excellent for tiles, one of the best surfaces is sound old tiles and can't get less permeable than that. I wonder if they're covering their backs in case of poor application.

As an aside, I have a friend who installed showers in 2 bedrooms and just fixed the shower cabinets into a corner leaving two existing walls complete with wallpaper intact. She then applied several coats of pva on the wallpaper and used the showers for a number of years without an issues whatsoever.

I laughed at that but she went to great pains to prove her point, I still wouldn't risk in in my house. #-o 

Bob


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## Chippyjoe (5 Jan 2017)

Well, I think part of the reason they will not stand by PVA (Bal), is the way that it skins over especially on MDF, therefore anything that is stuck to it, isn't if you know what I mean.

Of course it could have been a fib, so that you buy their sealer which I must admit is a lot better IMO.

You tend to take the advice of the people who are in the know, and I must say that the guy I spoke to in one of the Norwich branches, had been on lots of courses and tech meetings and seemed to know his stuff. Also after speaking to several local Ceramic tilers who do it for a living, they all said the same, so that was good enough for me.

Mark.


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## Jake (15 Jan 2017)

The reason they will not stand by PVA as a sealant is that if they said they did, any distinction between cross-linking and water soluble PVA would get lost in the mist. Tiles (if ceramic rather than porcelain) are not completely waterproof and nor is normal grout. So their carefully formulated adhesives could be glued to a layer of water soluble PVA which will just turn to goo if it gets damp. Unsurprising they don't want to underwrite that.


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## Lons (16 Jan 2017)

Jake":387ugb91 said:


> The reason they will not stand by PVA as a sealant is that if they said they did, any distinction between cross-linking and water soluble PVA would get lost in the mist. Tiles (if ceramic rather than porcelain) are not completely waterproof and nor is normal grout. So their carefully formulated adhesives could be glued to a layer of water soluble PVA which will just turn to goo if it gets damp. Unsurprising they don't want to underwrite that.



+1

They have no control over the pva, not all of which is equal or how it's been applied, watered down whatever.


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