# flattening chisel backs with lapping film



## madge

Hi all, I recently took a plunge down the slope and got a set of blue spruce paring chisels and today I got around to flattening the backs. After refreshing my memory with a couple of youtube videos from lie nielsen and rob cosman I set to work with lapping film on float glass but the results were much less than my expectations. Even on the coarsest grade of 40 microns I achieved patchy results with all but the smallest chisels showing a polish in the centre and a good couple of mms missed around the edges. Having achieved reasonable results on a set of ashley iles in the past I was surprised that the blue spruces didn't succumb in the same way. I'm pretty sure that the film is flat with no air bubbles and I tried to apply pressure evenly and not rock the chisel as I moved it. I spent close to an hour on the 1/2 inch size and didn't end up with an even polish. I'm thinking that 40 microns just isn't coarse enough but I've scoured the internet for a coarser grade and the next size seems to be 100 - is this too coarse? I have a diamond stone with a 1000 grit side too, would that be finer than 100 micron film and suitable for the first stage? Thanks in advance for any ideas.


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## fluffflinger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBZ8446KqkM

This should help. I've prepared several chisels and plane irons using the 100micron lapping film, very aggressive and makes quick work of the hardest steel.

Hope this helps.


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## Jacob

It takes about 10 seconds to get a new good quality chisel into use. You are seriously wasting your time!
Who made up these weird rituals and why do people go along with them?
Wake up!

Or to put it another way - if a chisel needs 'preparing' it isn't finished. Send it back to the maker and tell them to do it.


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## Cheshirechappie

Jacob":3pkmq7vh said:


> It takes about 10 seconds to get a new good quality chisel into use. You are seriously wasting your time!
> Who made up these weird rituals and why do people go along with them?
> Wake up!
> 
> Or to put it another way - if a chisel needs 'preparing' it isn't finished. Send it back to the maker and tell them to do it.



OK, I'll bite. How do you get the manufacturer's grinding marks off the flat face of a new chisel in 10 seconds, Jacob - especially as you advocate reasonably priced new chisels, the sort that usually have grinding marks?


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## Jacob

Cheshirechappie":11fktd2b said:


> Jacob":11fktd2b said:
> 
> 
> 
> It takes about 10 seconds to get a new good quality chisel into use. You are seriously wasting your time!
> Who made up these weird rituals and why do people go along with them?
> Wake up!
> 
> Or to put it another way - if a chisel needs 'preparing' it isn't finished. Send it back to the maker and tell them to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I'll bite. How do you get the manufacturer's grinding marks off the flat face of a new chisel in 10 seconds, Jacob - especially as you advocate reasonably priced new chisels, the sort that usually have grinding marks?
Click to expand...

I don't. I hone the bevel until a wire edge comes up (across the whole width - very important) and then take it off with the chisel face flat on the stone. 10 secs plenty. If it's so bad you can't sharpen it in 10 secs it's cr*ap - send it back.
It's not a major feat of technology to produce a 10 seconds usable chisel - amongst the simplest tools you can buy. If no good get your money back, don't buzz about lapping and polishing.


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## Cheshirechappie

Thank you, Jacob. That explains a lot.


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## Jacob

The Axminster cheapies I bought were all usable in no time at all. I go on about them a lot not because I'm trying to promote them but they are the only _set_ of chisels I've ever bought, as distinct from random selection of individual ones.


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## Peter Sefton

We do have 80 micron (180 grit) lapping films - 100 is pretty coarse for such high quality chisels, the finer the abrasive the flatter it will be and the more imperfections it will highlight on tools.

I have never lapped Blue Spruce but would be reluctant to do so on very coarse abrasives as I would hope the chisels are made to finer tolerances than that. Lapping on glass plate does show up all manufacturing imperfections which you may not show up with other sharpening mediums.


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## marcros

i have to admit that i have lusted after some blue spruce chisels since i first saw them online. I would be disappointed that they need so much flattening.

I see on their website that they have some supplier issues- might be worth an email to ask whether you may have a bad set?


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## carlb40

marcros":2zy7jjf5 said:


> i have to admit that i have lusted after some blue spruce chisels since i first saw them online.



Yeah me too, i love the bench chisels with curly maple handles


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## madge

many thanks for the speedy and insightful replies. I will try the 100 micron film and the smooth side of the diamond stone on an old chisel and see what results I get. Is there a precise relationship between grit and microns?

marcros I think I have you to blame for the chisels, I remember you mentioning them a while back before I knew anything about them! I had a newsletter from classic handtools last week mentioning that they'd acquired some tools from a collector, including blue spruce chisels and I caved. So I'm not sure when they would have been made but I might drop blue spruce an email - though I have confidence that it's my technique or approach that's at fault!


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## vally bar

I've got to be honest I have just watched that video and never seen such a load of old cobblers like it, totally designed to sell tools that are unnecessary. If you treat your chisels like that whatever you do do not put them anywhere near hardwood as you will blunt them.


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## bobbybirds

I have a set of 9 bench chisels, set of 4 dovetail paring chisels, pair of skew chisels and a fishtail chisel, all from Blue Spruce, and every single one of them was dead flat out of the gate and only required a slightest bit of polishing on my 4000/8000 Norton waterstone. I know a few people who also have BS chisels with the same experience as me, as well as the multitude of people I have read about on the forums with the same experience as me, and I have never once heard an experience like yours. 

Don't know quite what to say except that if it is a fault with the tool, Dave Jeske is an extremely decent fellow and would not leave you twisting in the wind, but I might try and see if there is something else that may be contributing to your issues. I have never used lapping film on glass so I can't really comment there...


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## ColeyS1

I've wasted hours of time in the past flattening backs of chisels/plane irons. My Ashley mk2 ones are slightly curved anyway so needed seconds to polish the back of the cutting edge. My marples site chisels get a much harder life. If its taking to long to polish the backs of them, I just use 'the ruler trick' which has saved hours of time.


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## Jacob

ColeyS1":2padbkce said:


> .....If its taking to long to polish the backs of them, I just use 'the ruler trick' which has saved hours of time.


 :shock: Dear oh dear that's strictly against the rules! :lol: 
I think this polishing myth has come about because any old chisel which has been well used, will over time acquire a flattish and polished back, with use and frequent sharpening. Somebody has extrapolated from this that that they should be polished and flattened from new. 
There may be some chisel jobs which need this level of preparation but I guess they are very rare. 
See what-is-the-last-useful-thing-you-did-with-a-chisel-t67886.html



> My Ashley mk2 ones are slightly curved anyway so needed seconds to polish the back of the cutting edge


Ditto my axminster cheapos. Very slightly hollowed faces like the best Jap chisels, making sharpening easy and almost instantaneous. I've no idea how consistent their production is so I wouldn't take this as guaranteed! I've only had my hands on the one set.


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## bugbear

If the back of a chisel isn't flat enough, you get (on some scale) a serrated edge. It's the same principal as is used by toothing irons.

BugBear


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## GazPal

Chisel flats naturally become polished through the sharpening process over a period of time and generally don't need a lot of work unless seriously out of whack (Badly pitted) bent like a boomerang. Even if a blade is in poor condition the area in need of work is typically a small section directly adjacent to the cutting edge. The resulting polished area expands with repeated whetting and burr removal.

I'm not strictly an advocate of back bevels on chisels, but much depends on a tool's primary roll and back bevelling can prove a good rescue exercise when re-sharpening types such as roughing-out chisels.  

In the case of paring chisels, we seldom use the full blade length when paring, but much depends on user preference and *if the flat on a new blade is out of straight beyond a reasonable degree or below parr the simplest solution is to return it for replacement or refund*. Much depends upon working tolerances and personal technique.

Grind marks should not be present on the more expensively branded chisels and ideally shouldn't be exist on any chisel flats. Sadly it's not an ideal world we live in and we sometimes find ourselves needing to put more work into tool prep than need be, but the work involved should be minimal.


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## Jacob

bugbear":1tsupszh said:


> If the back of a chisel isn't flat enough, you get (on some scale) a serrated edge. It's the same principal as is used by toothing irons.
> 
> BugBear


If you can't sharpen a new one easily and instantly it is faulty and should be sent back. 
It's like getting a saw - traditionally you are expected to sharpen them so that's OK, but you aren't expected to have to cut the teeth!


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## Sheffield Tony

I'm going to risk agreeing with Jacob. I bought a set of Crown mortice chisels, and found a small hairline crack in the blade of one, and another that was just a bit roughly finished. They were replaced quickly, without the slightest quibble. If it's not good enough, the manufacturer needs to know about it.


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## Jacob

I've looked at a few old well used and cared for chisels (from ebay etc) and the flat often isn't as flat as it looks. I think this is because when flattening the face there is a natural tendency to put more downwards force towards the edge, with your left hand fingers bearing on the last 2 inches. Over time this produces a very shallow bevel - more of a convex face, hardly noticeable. This doesn't affect usage in any way, in spite of the rituals and beliefs of the flatteners!


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## J_SAMa

I've never needed to flatten chisel backs. All my chisels came flat or concave. A little concave is OK right? :? I mean look at them Japanese chisels.


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## Jacob

J_SAMa":j2t8e0f3 said:


> I've never needed to flatten chisel backs. All my chisels came flat or concave. A little concave is OK right? :? I mean look at them Japanese chisels.


Sure it is. And a little convex doesn't matter much either (depending on what you are doing!)
And flattening plane blade faces is madness. The only bit which counts is the 2 or 3mm behind the edge where the cap iron needs to fit tight.


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## Corneel

I confess, I am a back lapper. Almost all my tools are old, and the back is usually slightly pitted and very convex. It's always difficult to reach the corners and the very edge. So allthough I agree only the last 2-3mm are important, it's not easy to actually reach them. I want to have all my irons in use the same kind of flattness, not one iron needing a backbevel, the other not etc. And only lapping a very short line doesn't really work because the iron is so unstable on the stone.

So, I lap backs. Whenever I buy a "new" old tool, I also buy a lot of work. I flatten about 3/4 to a full inch. It is indeed a lot of work, but it buys me peace of mind and easy sharpening for the rest of the lifetime of that tool. I get the fastest results now with a Sigma 120 stone, and 400, 1000, 4000 and 8000 stones after that. 

That said, with a new expensive chisel I wouldn't accept this convexity and send them back.


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## Peter Sefton

We lap new chisels on Glass and Scary sharp to remove grinding marks and improve flatness if required, when students bring in old chisels we give them the same treatment but this is usually to remove the rounding that has been self-inflicted by sharpening on old rounded oils stones or water stones that have not been flattened on a regular basis.


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## David C

At last some sanity! Chisel backs have been worked on by cabinetmakers, for hundreds of years.

Japanese chisels are the same, not ready for use.

As Bugbear said, manufacturers grinding marks need to be polished out in the vicinity of the edge.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## Jacob

So what would you say to Madge (the OP)?
Personally I think he's wasting his time. An hour on one chisel and still not right!
It's probably too late but my advice would have been to sharpen them a few times and use them, and they'd improve as any imperfections disappear (if there are any).


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## Noel

I used to lap away at the back of chisels some years ago. Why? Because, apparently it was the done thing. The comics said it was the only way to have a fully functioning tool, it was mentioned on all the WW forums too. You weren't a proper woodworker unless you flattened the backs of your chisels....Who was I to disagree....
Then I got lazy, skipped the boring part, sharpened the tool and used it. Hey, perhaps my standards are low, but I was happy and saw no noticeable difference in performance. The chisel was sharp, it did the job and held a decent edge, that was all I wanted. Ok, some car boot items were banana shaped but they were left to another day when a total regrind was needed.

Blade preparation holds much in common with the game of golf where some folk spend endless hours trying to prefect a particular aspect of the swing. They would be much happier just thinking- see ball, hit ball. Simple.

Interesting blog (apart from the odd spelling mistake):



> How the flat back craze started I’m not sure. I will admit that I subscribed to the flat back camp at one time. That is, until I started buying old tools. After spending a rediculous amount of time trying to flatten a few of the antique chisels and plane irons I had acquired, I began to think that there had to be a better way. There was no way that our ancestors would have spent so much time on such a task that had no financial value to them at all. They needed to get their tools sharp and get back to work. Let’s face it, flattening chisel backs does not put food on the table.



http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2011 ... p-lapping/


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## Jacob

I believed it too some time back. Not that I ever did it but I felt I was a bit of a slacker and might get caught out if a "fine woodworker" happened to drop in!
Doesn't matter much, but I ebayed some very nice but slightly un-flat chisels on the assumption that they were somehow no good. With hindsight, a mistake. One of them was a "J Fowler St John New Brunswick" 1" socket bevel edge, which was probably the best chisel ever to pass through my clumsy hands!

PS Excellent link!


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## Corneel

Interesting article from Bob from the Logan cabinet shop but it doesn't quite adres my trouble with sharpening old chisels and plane blades with pitted and 3 dimensional convex backs. Especialy the corners tend to drop down, and I really like sharp corners in a chisel. And sorry, but I don't spend more then an hour per chisel. Just some work once, saves me time everytime in the future when I sharpen the blade, because I don't need to search for the edge. 

I guess it's just a matter of personal preference.


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## Jacob

Yes some old ones need metalwork doing on them no doubt, but I think many don't, and our OP was misinformed about what he should do.


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## Corneel

Indeed new chisels shouldn't need so much work. A bit of work on the stones to polish them up. No extensive backlapping.


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## Noel

Corneel":nz22o6jy said:


> Indeed new chisels shouldn't need so much work. A bit of work on the stones to polish them up. No extensive backlapping.



Exactly, but everywhere you turn to learn about sharpening, it's "get the backs mirror flat" etc, etc.
Sharpen them, take off the wire and they'll be nice and shiny in no time.

Like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aDPZzMvVTA

I guess some folk have to make a living...


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## GazPal

Noel":g4jn8vwv said:


> Corneel":g4jn8vwv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed new chisels shouldn't need so much work. A bit of work on the stones to polish them up. No extensive backlapping.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, but everywhere you turn to learn about sharpening, it's "get the backs mirror flat" etc, etc.
> *Sharpen them, take off the wire and they'll be nice and shiny in no time.*
> 
> Like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aDPZzMvVTA
> 
> I guess some folk have to make a living...
Click to expand...



This plus 50,000,000  Sharpening and edge maintenance need to be high among your priorities and directly alongside learning how best to use tools. Too much focus on tool fettling detracts from the how and when to use certain tools and - in spite of what's often said - the best way to achieve the well worn and polished look with built in patina is by putting a toolkit to good use and trying not to altar worship it or it's makers. I often feel far too much emphasis is placed on treating tools as though they're not intended for use in their primary roles.


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## Jacob

Noel":123he3jl said:


> Corneel":123he3jl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed new chisels shouldn't need so much work. A bit of work on the stones to polish them up. No extensive backlapping.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, but everywhere you turn to learn about sharpening, it's "get the backs mirror flat" etc, etc.
> Sharpen them, take off the wire and they'll be nice and shiny in no time.
> 
> Like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aDPZzMvVTA
> 
> I guess some folk have to make a living...
Click to expand...

What's interesting about that video is that the first thing he says is obviously wrong, so it follows that everything else is doubtful.
The first thing he says is that the face of a chisel functions the same as the sole of a plane as "the reference surface" etc. It's not as simple as 'untrue' it's just meaningless. They are very different tools used in very different ways. 
Try cutting a mortice with a plane. 
What about "try flattening a surface with a chisel"? Possible, but you'd have to do it bevel down.
I like his funny honing dance, though I wouldn't recommend it! :lol:


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## Kalimna

Jacob - is it not the case that when paring, the flat face of the chisel is indeed used as a reference surface to allow accurate paring? I think the chappie mentions this in the video. Cutting a mortice is a slightly different task again, is it not?

Cheers,
Adam


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## Jacob

Kalimna":1oh1m1w8 said:


> Jacob - is it not the case that when paring, the flat face of the chisel is indeed used as a reference surface to allow accurate paring? I think the chappie mentions this in the video. ....
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam


I can see the attraction of the idea, it sounds rational, but in reality it's just not like that is it?

And the idea that flattening is an old and respectable tradition - the most common observation made about recently acquired old tools is that they are not flat or polished! Clearly nobody bothered that much.
I've just bought 20 old wooden planes, most of them obviously very well used. Absolutely no sign of efforts to flatten or polish faces, beyond the usual requirements of sharpening. And the nearly all have rounded bevels! How on earth did these old woodworkers manage? Clearly they knew little about tool preparation and sharpening!


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## David C

Jacob's breathtaking and obtuse refusal to understand traditional methods, is a wonder to behold.

David Charlesworth


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## Jacob

David C":9dp56sh9 said:


> Jacob's breathtaking and obtuse refusal to understand traditional methods, is a wonder to behold.
> 
> David Charlesworth


And all those old woodworkers too - obviously they didn't know how to do it either! :lol: 
If only someone had been around to explain things to them!

Actually I've been into trad woodwork for most of my life, Hands on, eyes open, mainly conservation work in old buildings, 'architectural' joinery - repairing and replicating sash windows, panelled doors, plus a few excursion into furniture and other aspects of woodwork. 
I've taken more particular interest in hand tools in the last few years, which means a lot of time separating myth from reality!
My sharpening improved enormously as soon as I dumped the jigs.


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## Cheshirechappie

I had intended not to post on this thread, since it seems to be descending into something of an unseemly brawl, but I can't help feeling there are a couple of important points not yet raised.

Firstly, how a chisel is prepared and sharpened depends on the duties expected of it. Secondly, the sharpness of an edge is dictated by the smoothness of two intersecting faces; a chisel can only be as sharp as the rougher of the two faces. 

For very rough carpentry, when the chisel will be used with a large mallet or hammer to remove a lot of waste wood quickly and without the need for a precision finish, almost anything with a sharpish edge and a bit of 'beef' in it's design will do. Hence double-hooped handles, thick registered blades and similar features. Edges straight from a grinder will sometimes do, or just tickled up on a medium oilstone. The flat face needs to be flattish, but polishing it won't add to performance.

For most joinery, something a bit better is needed, but as most work is chopping rather than paring, razor-sharp edges won't last long. Chisel flat faces need to fairly flat and preferably free of grinder scratches, but high polish won't add significantly to performance.

For fine cabinetmaking and finish woodcarving, when joints that may be a visual design feature of the work so must fit closely, and when it may be impossible to refine the surface after chisel work (as in much carving) a very sharp edge is needed, combined with a capacity to work to quite fine levels of precision. In this case, flat faces that are genuinely flat do have a role to play, and to achieve the highest sharpness the steel is capable of needs careful work to polish both intersecting edge faces. The polish only needs to be a fraction of an inch behind the edge on both flat face and bevel face, but for convenience it often extends further on the flat face - just polishing the edge is very difficult to do without compromising the flatness of the face.

I can't find the reference now, but someone recently posted about plane makers and the chisels they used to pare the iron beds of wooden planes. When their paring chisels started to get short from being sharpened over a period of years, they started the long process of flattening and polishing the flat face of a new chisel. They started this some months before they needed to use it, because the process took so long with the equipment they then had (and because if you're on piece-work, you do such jobs in your lunch-hour, so have to spread it out.) Chisel flattening is not new by any means.

Most workers (except perhaps carvers) probably only need the 'ultimate' chisels occasionally, so maybe it's best to have a small set of really highly prepared flat-faced, ultra-sharp chisels kept for fine fitting and end-grain paring, and a set of 'normal work' chisels used for the bulk of chopping and wood-shifting duties. A set of firmers supported by a few fine paring chisels, if you like. You don't need to have every chisel you own polished to optical flatness, just a few 'special' ones flat on the back and polished close to the edge.


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## Jacob

I'd agree with that in general. What you are saying (IMHO!) is horses for courses. And yes for very specialised things like plane making some nice straight chisels will help! I did one myself recently (new sole on old plane) with an axi cheapy. Nice and flat, holds an edge well. And for precision sharpness is necessary.
But I'm dubious about _long process of flattening, months ahead, etc_. Sounds a bit like tales of the old woodworker! More sensible to _start_ with a flat chisel if you need one desperately, and as and when, rather than preparing months ahead. Or to use a chisel in the ordinary way but take care of it so that in months ahead it is looking good, flat and polished
But to get back to madge (OP) - she's wasting her time and not doing her chisels any good. Just sharpen them madge and get on with some woodwork!
BTW where was/is _the unseemly brawl_ I seem to have missed it?

PS interestingly - carvers, who use chisels more often and more precisely than anybody else as a rule, go for polished double bevels, slightly rounded. 

The best way to flatten and polish tools is to use them a lot.


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## marcus

> Jacob wrote:
> 
> The first thing he says is that the face of a chisel functions the same as the sole of a plane as "the reference surface" etc. It's not as simple as 'untrue' it's just meaningless. They are very different tools used in very different ways.
> Try cutting a mortice with a plane.
> What about "try flattening a surface with a chisel"? Possible, but you'd have to do it bevel down..



Maybe I've misunderstood you, but flattening surfaces (when making joints etc) is a very common and traditional way to use a chisel, and it's not done bevel down....


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## Jacob

marcus":1xs1z696 said:


> Jacob wrote:
> 
> The first thing he says is that the face of a chisel functions the same as the sole of a plane as "the reference surface" etc. It's not as simple as 'untrue' it's just meaningless. They are very different tools used in very different ways.
> Try cutting a mortice with a plane.
> What about "try flattening a surface with a chisel"? Possible, but you'd have to do it bevel down..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I've misunderstood you, but flattening surfaces (when making joints etc) is a very common and traditional way to use a chisel, and it's not done bevel down....
Click to expand...

May be done bevel down on occasions. Sometimes the most convenient way to remove the last blip etc. There are no rules - you could use a penknife if that would help!
But anyway I meant if you were to attempt to use a chisel where you would normally use a plane e.g. to flatten a sawn board etc. pointing out that they are very different tools and the 'reference surface' idea is stretched too far.


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## marcus

> I meant if you were to attempt to use a chisel where you would normally use a plane e.g. to flatten a sawn board etc. pointing out that they are very different tools and the 'reference surface' idea is stretched too far



But when you DO use them to flatten surfaces (say when trimming a tenon cheek), they work just like a plane, albeit one without a mouth. In other words the back of the chisel is flat against the workpiece, enabling the cutting edge to seek out high spots. At least that's how I use them....


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## Jacob

marcus":u5oihzea said:


> I meant if you were to attempt to use a chisel where you would normally use a plane e.g. to flatten a sawn board etc. pointing out that they are very different tools and the 'reference surface' idea is stretched too far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But when you DO use them to flatten surfaces (say when trimming a tenon cheek), they work just like a plane, albeit one without a mouth. In other words the back of the chisel is flat against the workpiece, enabling the cutting edge to seek out high spots. At least that's how I use them....
Click to expand...

Well sort of, vaguely, etc. etc. 
Some particular jobs could be done with one or the other but surely these are not common? Personally I think they work very differently. If you took the plane blade out and used it on its own then it would be working like a chisel! Or if you mounted a chisel in a plane body etc.


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## marcus

> Well sort of, vaguely, etc. etc.



Not vaguely at all, that's exactly how I do it. And it's much easier and more precise if the back is flat, otherwise the chisel is inclined to either dig in or skate over the high spots. You _can_ do it with chisel that's not flat, of course, but I can't see any reason to given that it's quick and easy to have a flat chisel....


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## Jacob

I meant sort of, vaguely, like a plane. Chisels don't have mouths. Big difference!


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## marcus

Here's my 2 cents on the vexed question of sharpening standards, ancient and modern.

Jacob correctly points out that more often than not when you buy old tools they do not show evidence of the sort of back flattening and polishing that we find today. I suspect there are several reasons for this:

1) In the past the majority of chisels and planes were used for fairly rough work, and on site, and didn't need to be that sharp or precise.
2) The timber that was available in the past was usually of much better quality than we have today, and it was air dried, not kilned. It was therefore much less likely to tear out when being planed, or to crumble when being pared than modern timber. It was more workable, and hence could be worked satisfactorily with less sharp tools. 
3) In spite of our rose tinted spectacles about the craftsmanship of the past, much of it was done to quite a low standard. In everyday work the quality of construction and finish was usually quite low, and joints were often roughly made, relying to a surprising degree on wedges and the gap filling properties of hide glue. And filler! If you spend any time repairing antiques you soon find out how rough a lot of the work was. 
4) Sharpening and lapping took much longer, and cost more, because the technology to do it was less developed. Because of this it would often have been economic to make up for lack of sharpness with sheer muscle power. Labour was cheap and expendable and carpenters getting arthritis at 35 was considered par for the course.

When you come across antique tools that would have been used in the more demanding situations where great accuracy is needed (eg pattern makers tools, or tools from the very top end of cabinet making etc.) they are very likely to show evidence of back polishing etc

Today we are in a different situation: 

1) Our timber is usually kiln dried and of a poorer quality than in the past, and is much more inclined to tear out; sharper tools really help with this. 
2) We live in an environment where we are surrounded by things made by machine which have an almost perfect finish, and next to this the everyday standards acceptable in work of the past do not stand up to scrutiny. In furniture making, joinery that would once have been acceptable now looks shoddy, so there is more interest in anything that makes working to a finer standard easier and quicker.
3) For most of us, modern life is easier and less physical than in the past; people are less willing to put up with unnecessary physical toil, and find that sharper and more refined tools make things less strenuous and more pleasant — particularly because the technology now exists to achieve these things quite easily. A bit wimpy, but probably better for us on the whole. 
4) Because of the rise of the machine, a lot more hand tools are being used today by people interested in doing the finest work they can, rather than for everyday jobbing work as in the past; it is therefore natural that there is more interest in the techniques that are helpful in this sort of work. 

Having said all that I agree that the antics of the real sharpening aficionados are often over the top for almost any normal use of the tools. It's about balance I suppose.


----------



## Lons

+1 Marcus

The only thing I would add to that is no-one knew or cared how anyone else did it apart from within their own little community and therefore the views of the old guys were "cast in stone" and passed down to apprentices as "the way it must be done".

The internet and forums like tis have a lot to answer for :lol: 

Bob


----------



## Sgian Dubh

I seem to recall hearing somewhere that it was common for many woodworking tools to be sharpened by travelling sharpeners (knife grinders or cutlers maybe[?]) that went from workshop to workshop regrinding and putting a keen edge on chisels, planes, saws, etc. If that's true, and I have no evidence of it being so, I wonder how many woodworkers actually sharpened their own tools, and how many palmed the job off to the travelling guy, or passed the job over to some put-upon apprentice? Slainte.


----------



## barkwindjammer

I have a different long and winding road for you to commit your imaginings 

The picture on Andy Ts avatar-a charming spectacle, the young carpenter, joiner, cabinet maker-if you will
sleeves rolled up-and with a look of wisened determination about his brow.
Through the mist time moves back.
he's now 14yrs old, sporting a 'no messing' haircut, crafted by his own dear Mother not 2 days ago, 
he carries a tin with a wire hooped handle and an apple in each pocket-today is his first day in the 'work-shoppe'

He's to be wrought and melded into the ways of the cabinetmaker, Chandler, sculptor.

See those lads over there ?, yes Johnny and his co horts, they're 3rd years, see how they preen and hone and polish
their blades-every lunch break, and also at home, look how those irons and steels glint like the teeth of a murderer-primed, dangerously sharp, enough to make the blood run dark and cold.
Those lads have a plane, some have 2, and several chisels each, and a pencil cleft behind their ears.
Soon Andy will be allowed to do this on his very own plane iron-
3 months of fetching, carrying, sweeping and scurrying like a runt at the bark of Johnny and the older dogs-and then he will have earned his cast Iron landau-which will skate and plough his future.
The top dogs don't seem to notice or bother with Andy, they have their own underlings, they are the Craftsmen.
Their art and skill in such high order that one never sees them hone, or polish, or preen their tools, maybe they dont ?,
maybe their mastery is such that when wielded in such esteem hands the iron yields to their will, like the great locomotives or steam liners of the day-the captain commands.

Like any cherished thing when first given-it is cared for, nurtured, embelished-loved.
When the Captain takes the helm, he knows his ship, the waters he has coarsed, the reefs and snags-and the destination.

When we look back we all have had new paths to beat, new experiences, new horizons, hurdles and pitfalls-we attain the finish line, destination, Port -by some degree or other, and along the way we had higher standards and goals to reach, Johnny and his pals ?
They might be in Port ?, still charting the same waters ?, or possibly still sneering at the new guy ?-don't matter, he is there to 
set the measure.


----------



## Lons

barkwindjammer":22b2rx0z said:


> I have a different long and winding road for you to commit your imaginings
> 
> The picture on Andy Ts avatar-a charming spectacle, the young carpenter, joiner, cabinet maker-if you will
> sleeves rolled up-and with a look of wisened determination about his brow.
> Through the mist time moves back.
> he's now 14yrs old, sporting a 'no messing' haircut, crafted by his own dear Mother not 2 days ago,
> he carries a tin with a wire hooped handle and an apple in each pocket-today is his first day in the 'work-shoppe'
> 
> He's to be wrought and melded into the ways of the cabinetmaker, Chandler, sculptor.
> 
> See those lads over there ?, yes Johnny and his co horts, they're 3rd years, see how they preen and hone and polish
> their blades-every lunch break, and also at home, look how those irons and steels glint like the teeth of a murderer-primed, dangerously sharp, enough to make the blood run dark and cold.
> Those lads have a plane, some have 2, and several chisels each, and a pencil cleft behind their ears.
> Soon Andy will be allowed to do this on his very own plane iron-
> 3 months of fetching, carrying, sweeping and scurrying like a runt at the bark of Johnny and the older dogs-and then he will have earned his cast Iron landau-which will skate and plough his future.
> The top dogs don't seem to notice or bother with Andy, they have their own underlings, they are the Craftsmen.
> Their art and skill in such high order that one never sees them hone, or polish, or preen their tools, maybe they dont ?,
> maybe their mastery is such that when wielded in such esteem hands the iron yields to their will, like the great locomotives or steam liners of the day-the captain commands.
> 
> Like any cherished thing when first given-it is cared for, nurtured, embelished-loved.
> When the Captain takes the helm, he knows his ship, the waters he has coarsed, the reefs and snags-and the destination.
> 
> When we look back we all have had new paths to beat, new experiences, new horizons, hurdles and pitfalls-we attain the finish line, destination, Port -by some degree or other, and along the way we had higher standards and goals to reach, Johnny and his pals ?
> They might be in Port ?, still charting the same waters ?, or possibly still sneering at the new guy ?-don't matter, he is there to
> set the measure.




=D> =D> =D>


----------



## Phil Pascoe

1/ Is the tool as sharp as it could be?
2/ Is the tool as sharp as I can get it?
3/ Would the tool be even sharper if I bought more gear to sharpen it with?
4/ Is the tool more than adequately sharp for the job in hand?

Life is too short to spend too long worrying about 1/, 2/ and 3/.


----------



## marcus

> Life is too short to spend too long worrying about 1/, 2/ and 3/.



+1


----------



## Jacob

Sgian Dubh":3j0z7np7 said:


> I seem to recall hearing somewhere that it was common for many woodworking tools to be sharpened by travelling sharpeners (knife grinders or cutlers maybe[?]) that went from workshop to workshop regrinding and putting a keen edge on chisels, planes, saws, etc. If that's true, and I have no evidence of it being so, I wonder how many woodworkers actually sharpened their own tools, and how many palmed the job off to the travelling guy, or passed the job over to some put-upon apprentice? Slainte.


They still do it exactly the same but differently. 
Our local saw doctor* does a round every two weeks and takes away (or returns) anything you want sharpening, from big industrial tooling down to router cutters or hand sharpening hand saws. Most people do it themselves most of the time, but occasionally use the experts to bring them up to scratch.

*a modern firm with lots of kit, not just an old bloke with a wheel and a bicycle!


----------



## Harbo

In "The Joiner and Carpenter" talking about the 1830's, Hardware shops in London did big business on a Saturday grinding Carpenters tools ready for the following week.
It also states that a number of cabinet makers would not allow grindstones on their premises but used "Rubstones" instead.
Turkey or Charney lubricated with water and kept flat by rubbing it against another stone. It was considered bad practice to leave the stone hollow and a fine could be charged.

Rod


----------



## Cheshirechappie

marcus":nis1aze7 said:


> ....
> 3) In spite of our rose tinted spectacles about the craftsmanship of the past, much of it was done to quite a low standard. In everyday work the quality of construction and finish was usually quite low, and joints were often roughly made, relying to a surprising degree on wedges and the gap filling properties of hide glue. And filler! If you spend any time repairing antiques you soon find out how rough a lot of the work was.
> 
> ....
> 
> When you come across antique tools that would have been used in the more demanding situations where great accuracy is needed (eg pattern makers tools, or tools from the very top end of cabinet making etc.) they are very likely to show evidence of back polishing etc
> 
> ....




I think that's a very valid point in this context. Until about WW2, most furniture was made in the 'traditional' manner, even if it was made in large factories (though some such used mechanised joint-cutting from about 1880 onwards). That included the cheaper furniture, which because it was cheap, a craftsman would not have had many hours to lavish on over fine details. In consequence, most joinery was hidden, often behind applied mouldings, so did not need to be anything other than strictly functional.

The fashion for exposed joinery came in with the Arts and Crafts movement, which though it has had huge influence on furniture design, never amounted to anything other than a tiny fraction of furniture actually made during the early 20th century, and most of that for the high-end market (despite the socialist available-to-all aspirations of Morris, Ruskin and others).

In consequence, the tools needed to make all but the very finest furniture did not need to be prepared to the nth degree. They just needed to be sharp enough to get waste wood shifted, and components of furniture banged together as fast as possible.

Older chisels, made pre-WW2 were usually hand ground and finished, and some variation of flat face flatness can still be detected on secondhand examples. That the original owners didn't bother to lap them flat is probably an indication that they felt no need to do so. As long as it would take an edge and cut wood, it did what they expected of it.

Modern chisels are usually machine ground, so are fairly flat on the back to start with. The main problem is grinder marks, and once those are removed from the flat face by the edge, the chisel will be good for almost any duty.


----------



## Racers

Hi,

The trouble with basing your ideas on several related items is that its possibly not typical, I have found Embassy cigarette packets used to shim lots of hinges, it doesn't mean all chippys where smokers and they all smoked Embassy.

Pete


----------



## Jacob

Cheshirechappie":x066h40g said:


> ...........
> The fashion for exposed joinery came in with the Arts and Crafts movement, which though it has had huge influence on furniture design,


A bit of a dead end as far as UK was concerned. 
But it was taken up in Europe esp the Bauhaus who unlike Morris etc were not afraid of machinery and had no romantic notions of a lost golden age. As such became a (_the_) major factor in modern design. They also espoused progressive socialist ideas from Morris etc. This is why Hitler hated them. I think Hitler would have liked dismal UK A&C brown stuff, exposed DTs and all!
Paxton and industrialists, Mackintosh and imported art nouveau, more important as design influences in UK


> never amounted to anything other than a tiny fraction of furniture actually made during the early 20th century, and most of that for the high-end market (despite the socialist available-to-all aspirations of Morris, Ruskin and others).


These aspirations eventually met by Habitat, Ikea etc with a long but continuous link via Bauhaus back to Morris.

NB Arts n Crafts is supposed to epitomise high end crafts (that's what they tell us but you don't have to believe it!) but in fact it was more of a design movement and much stuff was made to normal standards by normal artisans, but to A&C designs


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":2mw8bick said:


> But it [A&C design] was taken up in Europe esp the Bauhaus who unlike Morris etc were not afraid of machinery and had no romantic notions of a lost golden age. As such became a (_the_) major factor in modern design. They also espoused progressive socialist ideas from Morris etc.



Yes - the original A&C items were rather fancily hand crafted in expensive materials, and sadly for their socialist ideals "the people" simply couldn't afford them.

BugBear


----------



## marcus

> Jacob wrote:
> 
> Arts n Crafts is supposed to epitomise high end crafts (that's what they tell us but you don't have to believe it!)



Not sure who 'they' are! It was a broad movement and you're right that there was plenty of stuff made to indifferent standards (generally the normal story of people spotting a trend and cashing in). But the best stuff can stand next to pretty much anything — like this:

(Ashbee and Broadwood)

http://agmlib.cheltenham.gov.uk/www...dlib-images/1996.582.jpg&width=500&height=500

Or this:

(morris and co)

http://agmlib.cheltenham.gov.uk/www...dlib-images/1985-659.jpg&width=500&height=500

or this:

(Ernest Gimson)

http://agmlib.cheltenham.gov.uk/www...adlib-images/1971.44.jpg&width=500&height=500

Or this:

(morris and co)

http://www.vam.ac.uk/__data/assets/...6am2731_william_morris_st_georges_cabinet.jpg

Or this:

(Phyllis Baron)

http://agmlib.cheltenham.gov.uk/www...adlib-images/1957.71.jpg&width=500&height=500

In my opinion hardly anyone, including most of the 'big' names, is doing work this good today. Or perhaps no one at all. There's lots of skill out there, but I'm convinced something has been lost.


----------



## Jacob

yes very expensively made with great skill but a design dead end IMHO
These spectacular bits of early modernism were being built same century.

















They'd hardly register with the A&C crowd. (Though the contents of the great exhibition did). Too industrial for the gentry. Smoke, noise, the working clarse, oh dear no!


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Using a road roller is a pretty drastic way of trying to flatten a chisel back. Might not work, either; unless you coat the rollers with emery powder. 

Not sure where the Crystal Palace and Pontcysyllte Aqueduct come into it, though.


----------



## Jacob

Cheshirechappie":1zofpsbv said:


> Using a road roller is a pretty drastic way of trying to flatten a chisel back. Might not work, either; unless you coat the rollers with emery powder.
> 
> Not sure where the Crystal Palace and Pontcysyllte Aqueduct come into it, though.


Design history and influence on the future. Bauhaus very aware of industry and trying to integrate arts, crafts, trades, under one roof (behind one glass wall you might say), which they did astonishingly well.
NB I'm just in the middle of several books abt the Bauhaus in case anybody is wondering why I'm going on about it!


----------



## marcus

> design dead end IMHO



So what? They're lovely. More lovely than anything being made now, and that was the point of them. To be wonderful things, to be the best that could be made. Wander round the British Museum or the V & A — almost everything there is ultimately a design dead end, but they are wonderful in themselves, which is why we love them. To value something simply because it led to something else is a bit arbitrary.

As for the Arts and Crafts crowd 'not having time for the working class', that's a travesty. The entire movement was based around concern for working people and the appalling conditions in industry at the time, and most of the leading lights of the movement were socialists of one stripe or another. Morris himself struggled a great deal with the conflict between the reality-in-practice of his craft businesses and his socialism and gave up his craft work for a long period of time to dedicate himself to class struggle. Of course with hindsight you can't escape the fact that they were from the ruling classes, but by the standards of the time they were very progressive and were anything but snobs. 

Ultimately they wanted a world filled with beautiful things, where everyone had enjoyable and fulfilling work; not a bad aim, notwithstanding the fact it was utopian dream that could never happen in the way they envisaged. But the world had less experience of what happens when you try to put utopian dreams into practice back then....


----------



## Jacob

marcus":14uues12 said:


> .....
> As for the Arts and Crafts crowd 'not having time for the working class', that's a travesty. The entire movement was based around concern for working people and the appalling conditions in industry at the time, and most of the leading lights of the movement were socialists of one stripe or another...........


Yes but their products were only for the wealthy and they had a very romantic backward looking view of craft work. Other UK social reformers of the time were far more significant, Engels, Booth, Rowntree, the new town builders, Dickens, Marx himself and many others.
A&C were blind to two things particularly - one being industry (they hated it) the other being the vernacular tradition which they simply couldn't see - they thought it had finished somehow.
And there were some terrible old tories involved as well!


----------



## marcus

> Yes but their products were only for the wealthy and they had a very romantic backward looking view of craft work. Other UK social reformers of the time were far more significant, Engels, Booth, Rowntree, the new town builders, Dickens, Marx himself and many others.



Agreed, but they were not snobs.


----------



## Jacob

marcus":28ww82ga said:


> Yes but their products were only for the wealthy and they had a very romantic backward looking view of craft work. Other UK social reformers of the time were far more significant, Engels, Booth, Rowntree, the new town builders, Dickens, Marx himself and many others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, but they were not snobs.
Click to expand...

Not knowingly perhaps. Their intentions were for the best. But the English class system locked them into a certain strata which they'd find hard to break away from, and modernism unsettled them.
Unlike their raving, radical, revolutionary European counterparts who picked up where they left off.


----------



## marcus

> Their intentions were for the best. But the English class system locked them into a certain strata which they'd find hard to break away from



Of course.



> and modernism unsettled them. Unlike their raving, radical, revolutionary European counterparts who picked up where they left off



Looking at how it is turning out they may have been right to have been unsettled..... Time will tell.


----------



## David C

OP ???????


----------



## Jacob

I think we sorted the OP - told madge not to carry on flattening but to just sharpen and go woodworking! I think that was the consensus.
How are you getting on madge?


----------



## Cheshirechappie

I wonder whether the Bauhaus, revolutionary European counterparts and terrible old tories flattened the backs of their chisels, and if so, what grade of lapping film they used?


----------



## Jacob

Cheshirechappie":1o6jxtdf said:


> I wonder whether the Bauhaus, revolutionary European counterparts and terrible old tories flattened the backs of their chisels, and if so, what grade of lapping film they used?


I think they had more important things on their minds! 
There might be a clue in the Bauhaus wood work shop, have a gander around:-






I see they had continental style workbenches. Well they couldn't be right about everything!


----------



## marcus

> OP ???????



There was an OP?  

I thought that the first reply from fluffflinger pretty much covered it....


----------



## Noel

Jacob":26o1blwk said:


> Cheshirechappie":26o1blwk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder whether the Bauhaus, revolutionary European counterparts and terrible old tories flattened the backs of their chisels, and if so, what grade of lapping film they used?
> 
> 
> 
> I think they had more important things on their minds!
> There might be a clue in the Bauhaus wood work shop, have a gander around:-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see they had continental style workbenches. Well they couldn't be right about everything!
Click to expand...


Untidy bunch, that lot... Good natural light, a real greenhouse of a workshop.


----------



## CHJ

Photograph of the interior of Sidney Barnsley's Sapperton House, 1904






The house is about a mile from me, one or two local houses have bits of their work but none of it in anything other than wealthy establishments at the time.


----------



## János

Hello,

You could flatten the backs of chisels and plane blades in a few seconds on a flatstone grinder, like the Shinko system http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product ... -stone.htm, or a similar one.

Have a nice day,

János


----------



## Phil Pascoe

.....but that would spoil hours of fun!


----------



## Jacob

phil.p":26jcpe4l said:


> .....but that would spoil hours of fun!


They could find another hobby; woodwork perhaps?


----------



## bugbear

Kalimna":gkcpww8v said:


> Jacob - is it not the case that when paring, the flat face of the chisel is indeed used as a reference surface to allow accurate paring?



In the case of paring guides (the obvious one is the sash mitre template), they'd be useless if the chisel couldn't sit flat on a surface and still cut.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

Do you mean one of these? 






I've always understood these were for drawing a line around a moulding , not for cutting.
But if you did use it as a cutting guide the blade wouldn't need to be flat at all. Even two rounded bevels (carving chisel) would do it.
It's a bit mythical this flat chisel thing (within reason). No doubt there is a job or two where a dead flat face would help, but until you get one I'd forget all abt this flattening nonsense.


----------



## János

Hello,

Dear Jacob, for an example of a paring guide/saddle template take a look at this:
http://wangebote.de/251056114995/gehrun ... Flade.html

This is the type of tool BB has mentioned, I guess.

Have a nice day,

János


----------



## bugbear

János":341jy1e3 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Dear Jacob, for an example of a paring guide/saddle template take a look at this:
> http://wangebote.de/251056114995/gehrun ... Flade.html
> 
> This is the type of tool BB has mentioned, I guess.



Fancy!

Here's the traditional (and simple) form:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/workshop ... iters.aspx

Even the Japanese use them:







They crop up in old toolboxes rather commonly, being useful and easy to make.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

Yes OK. A "normal" flat chisel would do. Any one out of my box. No _special_ flattening required!


----------



## riclepp

bugbear":2dnbi1j7 said:


> János":2dnbi1j7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Dear Jacob, for an example of a paring guide/saddle template take a look at this:
> http://wangebote.de/251056114995/gehrun ... Flade.html
> 
> This is the type of tool BB has mentioned, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fancy!
> 
> Here's the traditional (and simple) form:
> 
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/workshop ... iters.aspx
> 
> Even the Japanese use them:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They crop up in old toolboxes rather commonly, being useful and easy to make.
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...



I got my late fathers one of these made out of mahogany


----------



## GazPal

bugbear":777icqo6 said:


> János":777icqo6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Dear Jacob, for an example of a paring guide/saddle template take a look at this:
> http://wangebote.de/251056114995/gehrun ... Flade.html
> 
> This is the type of tool BB has mentioned, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fancy!
> 
> Here's the traditional (and simple) form:
> 
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/workshop ... iters.aspx
> 
> Even the Japanese use them:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They crop up in old toolboxes rather commonly, being useful and easy to make.
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...




Perhaps from your standpoint, but they're not too uncommon in newer toolboxes either and I have one among my kit that sees use fairly regularly. My son also uses a mitre saddle/template.  It's a simple enough paring guide and there's no need for higher than necessary levels of flat or polish in chisel blades when dealing with average sized work pieces. 

Much the same can be said when considering the use of paring chisels in most context, as full blade length seldom becomes involved in a straight paring cut - unless patternmaking - or where accuracy is better served via the use of a handplane.

Surely it says a lot of the method or technique if flattening any surface takes longer than realistically practicable. Anything beyond five minutes spent on flattening a single chisel/plane blade is IMHO beyond reason and other methods should be sought and used before moving on to stones as a means of finishing the resulting surface.


----------



## bugbear

GazPal":3cvaj0s6 said:


> bugbear":3cvaj0s6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> János":3cvaj0s6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Dear Jacob, for an example of a paring guide/saddle template take a look at this:
> http://wangebote.de/251056114995/gehrun ... Flade.html
> 
> This is the type of tool BB has mentioned, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fancy!
> 
> Here's the traditional (and simple) form:
> 
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/workshop ... iters.aspx
> 
> Even the Japanese use them:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They crop up in old toolboxes rather commonly, being useful and easy to make.
> 
> BugBear
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps from your standpoint, but they're not too uncommon in newer toolboxes either and I have one among my kit that sees use fairly regularly. My son also uses a mitre saddle/template.  It's a simple enough paring guide and there's no need for higher than necessary levels of flat or polish in chisel blades when dealing with average sized work pieces.
Click to expand...


Good lord, yes. The only thing to avoid is a back bevel, which would make the chisel cut climb away from the desired line.

BugBear


----------



## János

Hello,

To call the back/front (the name depends on your perspective, so to speak) side of a chisel or plane blade _flat_ is a misnomer, as _it should be plane_, and not flat. The back/front sides of Japanese cutting tools are hollow, not flat, but plane. You understand what I mean, don't you?
The paring chisels are used differently, than carving tools. A single bevel and a plane face/back is a necessity, otherwise you will be forced to use the tool like a carving chisel, _and that is not the most efficient way of doing paring cuts_. The paring chisel "jigs itself", thus requires much less effort to control the cut, a carver uses his hands and muscles to control and "jig up" the tool, to accomplish the cuts, as the tool - resting on the small surface of the bevel - is unstable, and prone to catch, run over, or dig in.

Have a nice day,

János


----------



## Jacob

János":mv5h4ydv said:


> Hello,
> 
> To call the back/front (the name depends on your perspective, so to speak) side of a chisel or plane blade _flat_ is a misnomer, as _it should be plane_, and not flat. The back/front sides of Japanese cutting tools are hollow, not flat, but plane. You understand what I mean, don't you?


Yes. By "plane" you mean "co-planar". 
I (and many others) call the flat co-planar side the face. Easy to remember and logical; flat = face, bevel = back


----------



## Jacob

János":xhkz0910 said:


> ......The paring chisel "jigs itself", thus requires much less effort to control the cut,


Yes in theory in ideal circumstances. If you float a paring chisel face down over a flat surface it will neatly trim off any bumps it encounters.* But surfaces are rarely like that (mostly flat with isolated little bumps) and in reality paring becomes just another mode of carving


> a carver uses his hands and muscles to control and "jig up" the tool, to accomplish the cuts, as the tool - resting on the small surface of the bevel - is unstable, and prone to catch, run over, or dig in.
> 
> Have a nice day,
> 
> János


*A paring chisel will also dig in if it hits a big enough bump!


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Jacob - Co planar with what? Surely there is nothing on a chisel that is co planar with anything else?


----------



## János

Hello,

Dear Jacob, thank you for your help. 
In my country and my mother tongue the naming is not as simple. In a cutting blade we call that side the "face" _which will face the direction of cut in actual use_. This convention helps in the discussion of cutting geometry. Yes, it is centered on machine tools, and does not account for single bevel chisels... And we call a bevel an "edgeband". :shock: 

Have a nice day, :wink: 

János


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":34zfj8rl said:


> Yes in theory in ideal circumstances. If you float a paring chisel face down over a flat surface it will neatly trim off any bumps it encounters.* But surfaces are rarely like that (mostly flat with isolated little bumps) and in reality paring becomes just another mode of carving



When doing final paring of a dovetail, the chisel edge is simply placed in the gauge line, the chisel (blade) set perpendicular to the workpiece, and the chisel pushed forward on its axis, remaining perpendicular to the workpiece.

Any chisel that needs to be held up at some angle to compensate for a back bevel would be a right pain.

Not sure who mentioned flat surfaces with little bumps.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

bugbear":2wh4e05o said:


> Jacob":2wh4e05o said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes in theory in ideal circumstances. If you float a paring chisel face down over a flat surface it will neatly trim off any bumps it encounters.* But surfaces are rarely like that (mostly flat with isolated little bumps) and in reality paring becomes just another mode of carving
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When doing final paring of a dovetail, the chisel edge is simply placed in the gauge line, the chisel (blade) set perpendicular to the workpiece, and the chisel pushed forward on its axis, remaining perpendicular to the workpiece.
Click to expand...

Usually tilted in to undercut very slightly


> Any chisel that needs to be held up at some angle to compensate for a back bevel would be a right pain.


I wouldn't recommend it particularly but I'm certain that if all you had were chisels with double bevels would get used to them in no time. Given a flat faced chisel you'd probably want to add another bevel immediately!


----------



## Jacob

phil.p":3sp8ljkn said:


> Jacob - Co planar with what? Surely there is nothing on a chisel that is co planar with anything else?


 :shock: 
I suppose the edge itself and all the other extremities of the flat face should be roughly co-planar.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":lkq6t5uc said:


> bugbear":lkq6t5uc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob":lkq6t5uc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes in theory in ideal circumstances. If you float a paring chisel face down over a flat surface it will neatly trim off any bumps it encounters.* But surfaces are rarely like that (mostly flat with isolated little bumps) and in reality paring becomes just another mode of carving
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When doing final paring of a dovetail, the chisel edge is simply placed in the gauge line, the chisel (blade) set perpendicular to the workpiece, and the chisel pushed forward on its axis, remaining perpendicular to the workpiece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Usually tilted in to undercut very slightly
> 
> 
> 
> Any chisel that needs to be held up at some angle to compensate for a back bevel would be a right pain.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it particularly but I'm certain that if all you had were chisels with double bevels would get used to them in no time. Given a flat faced chisel you'd probably want to add another bevel immediately!
Click to expand...


Perhaps, but it sounds doubtful. A straight cut with a flat chisel is simplest and best.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

bugbear":1svxpze9 said:


> Jacob":1svxpze9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bugbear":1svxpze9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> When doing final paring of a dovetail, the chisel edge is simply placed in the gauge line, the chisel (blade) set perpendicular to the workpiece, and the chisel pushed forward on its axis, remaining perpendicular to the workpiece.
> 
> 
> 
> Usually tilted in to undercut very slightly
> 
> 
> 
> Any chisel that needs to be held up at some angle to compensate for a back bevel would be a right pain.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it particularly but I'm certain that if all you had were chisels with double bevels would get used to them in no time. Given a flat faced chisel you'd probably want to add another bevel immediately!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but it sounds doubtful. A straight cut with a flat chisel is simplest and best.
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...

If you pull apart old furniture with hand made DTs you will find that they are nearly always undercut slightly, from both sides, making a very shallow 'valley' in the shoulder of the pin hole. This is because it's easier, quicker, and ensures a tight fit at the visible join.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Jacob":1y6o4nmt said:


> phil.p":1y6o4nmt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob - Co planar with what? Surely there is nothing on a chisel that is co planar with anything else?
> 
> 
> 
> :shock:
> I suppose the edge itself and all the other extremities of the flat face should be roughly co-planar.
Click to expand...

  Flat, in other words?


----------



## GazPal

János":3uf4ba28 said:


> Hello,
> 
> To call the back/front (the name depends on your perspective, so to speak) side of a chisel or plane blade _flat_ is a misnomer, as _it should be plane_, and not flat. The back/front sides of Japanese cutting tools are hollow, not flat, but plane. You understand what I mean, don't you?
> The paring chisels are used differently, than carving tools. A single bevel and a plane face/back is a necessity, otherwise you will be forced to use the tool like a carving chisel, _and that is not the most efficient way of doing paring cuts_. The paring chisel "jigs itself", thus requires much less effort to control the cut, a carver uses his hands and muscles to control and "jig up" the tool, to accomplish the cuts, as the tool - resting on the small surface of the bevel - is unstable, and prone to catch, run over, or dig in.
> 
> Have a nice day,
> 
> János




I think the word you're searching for is "plain" and yes, the plain side is normally the unmodified flat or face, whilst the back is typically the bevelled side of the blade. Double edged chisels typically consist edge and blade, with neither side referred to as back or front.  



bugbear":3uf4ba28 said:


> When doing final paring of a dovetail, the chisel edge is simply placed in the gauge line, the chisel (blade) set perpendicular to the workpiece, and the chisel pushed forward on its axis, remaining perpendicular to the workpiece.
> 
> Any chisel that needs to be held up at some angle to compensate for a back bevel would be a right pain.
> 
> Not sure who mentioned flat surfaces with little bumps.
> 
> BugBear




Temporarily skipping across to the topic of masonry may help provide a few clues regarding chisel use, as they typically use double bevelled chisels for most of their cutting and dressing work, with the only single bevelled chisels in their arsenal consisting pitching tools and a select few carving chisels. As with carpentry, chisel work is generally thought of as a preliminary step toward final finishing (As well as a means of rapid stock removal). Yes, it is highly desirable for one to obtain surfaces as close as possible to the next level of tooling or desired finishing method, but IMHO more positive feedback can be gained via skill acquisition and tool manipulation than the pursuit of perfect flat.

Returning to carpentry and chisel use, paring differs to bulk removal (Such as dovetailing) as it generally involves surface reduction toward a finish level via the careful removal of minimal stock. Even a double bevelled chisel can be used to trim back to the line when prepping dovetails, because the norm is to slightly undercut the end grain face - at the line - in order to achieve final fit. Yes, we pare back to the line, but the amount of material removal involved is/should be minimal and paring to lines can be carried out using a single or double bevelled chisel without any need to hold the blade perpendicular to the adjacent work surface.


----------



## GazPal

phil.p":1wvsc2aj said:


> Jacob":1wvsc2aj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> phil.p":1wvsc2aj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob - Co planar with what? Surely there is nothing on a chisel that is co planar with anything else?
> 
> 
> 
> :shock:
> I suppose the edge itself and all the other extremities of the flat face should be roughly co-planar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Flat, in other words?
Click to expand...


Yes, flat/co-planar when all four corners and the intermediate surface rest at the same plain. :wink: 

------------

Past and present practices have proven chisels do not need perfectly flat face behind the cutting edge in order for one to pare straight and true in most instances. Typically because paring tends not to be a final step in the finishing process.


----------



## Jacob

So we've laid to rest the flattening myth pretty convincingly. This should save woodworkers millions of hours! Should there be an official announcement of some sort? 
Polishing is another thing. IMHO the benefit of stropping (or buffing on a wheel etc) the bevel and a bit of the face reduces friction and improves the cut. Not something I'd do every time but a quick strop is good. NB Just 20 seconds or so, not hours of obsessive fiddling with graded diamond dust, plate glass, sundry gadgets or other madness!


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":22nx6ld4 said:


> So we've laid to rest the flattening myth pretty convincingly.



We've shown that flat chisels are needed for accurate straight cuts.

BugBear


----------



## Phil Pascoe

BB- you got the wrong word - it's now "co-planar" not "flat".


----------



## Dangermouse

Jacob said:


> So we've laid to rest the flattening myth pretty convincingly. This should save woodworkers millions of hours! Should there be an official announcement of some sort?
> quote]
> 
> It would save woodworkers millions of hours too, if they all stopped typing hundreds of posts about flattening chisel backs and just got on with it. :shock: (hammer)


----------



## marcus

> So we've laid to rest the flattening myth pretty convincingly.



At first I thought that arguing with Jacob was like taking candy from a baby. Then I realised it's not as interesting as that. It's like taking candy from a baby who's incapable of realising that the candy's gone.


----------



## marcus

And while I'm on the subject of childishness....

What is the point in discussing with someone who is repeatedly shown to be making factual errors, but every time this happens diverts attention by raising an unrelated point? Who seems unable to accept that different approaches and motivations exist to his own? Or who can have a long conversation that shows quite clearly that there are other points of view as valid as his own, but then waits a bit and comes banging back with exactly the same statements made at the beginning as if the entire conversation hasn't happened? Or who seems unaware that one point of dialogue is to expand and deepen ones viewpoint rather than endlessly repeating it? Or who either can't or won't come to the point where people say 'live and let live', and let things drop.

Obviously it's a waste of time and energy. I can't work out if he is trolling for fun or actually means what he says, but every time I engage I regret it. You just can't have a meaningful conversation with a person who seems to be inherently incapable of compromise and who needs to be right this badly.


----------



## bugbear

marcus":4znri9eo said:


> ..I can't work out if he is trolling for fun or actually means what he says...



I've never been able to answer that one either. I think it's quite a lot of both.

BugBear


----------



## Paul Chapman

marcus":pxo3mudy said:


> Obviously it's a waste of time and energy.



Which is why so many people don't bother posting on here any more.......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## GazPal

bugbear":3slfuvre said:


> We've shown that flat chisels are needed for accurate straight cuts.
> 
> BugBear



How on earth they managed to build the Egyptian pyramids, Mayan temples, Parthenon and Harrison's wooden timepieces without perfectly flat chisels I'll never know. :roll: 

Chisels have limitations when put to use and this gave rise to the development of the hand plane, abrasive papers, etc., etc.. Whilst the reach of a paring chisel is handy, the tool itself is not necessarily an accurate tool, as it's blade - by nature - is flexible and can distort during use. Especially so when it encounters grain travelling in contrary directions. This makes it necessary for one to constantly relax/increase downward pressure on the blade with one hand whilst the other steers via the handle. We don't introduce it's edge to the material and trust it will travel straight and true when driven forward primarily because it won't. Again, more emphasis needs to be placed upon tooling technique, because finite degrees of accuracy within a tool's manufacture are not the sole factors dictating accuracy in the cut. Shift focus on to chisels driven via maul or mallet and the pursuit of a perfectly straight blade becomes pointless as the steel shifts beneath each strike and wanders freely in the cut unless guided by hand and eye. Our senses play a much greater part in the ability to cut straight and true than seems accepted.

Books don't tend to teach this and a scientific approach toward chisel use tends to prove inappropriate unless every eventuality can be calculated with provision for formulae and converted to describe the physical reactions of materials, tools and tool user. But then we'd need to shift a proportion of focus away from crafting and on to calculus and translating scientific results into actions belonging in the realms of the machine driven world.

How long is a piece of string/How accurately ground should a blade be along it's length? It depends...... I mention this is because much depends upon cut dimension (Reach & breadth), blade flex and potential user error. Accurate tools are a real and genuine necessity, but - even with laser-like precision - more emphasis needs to be placed upon tooling practices than the tools themselves. Otherwise we become tool owners and not tool users and run the risk of losing sight of the skill sets developed over the ages for manipulating timber into various forms. 

I tend to err on the side of accurate layout, sound technique and matching a tool to it's given task as being necessary for one to achieve accurate work. Straight or curved. Pinpoint accuracy in woodworking is perfectly possible without any need for engineering tolerances in the tools we use and this fact has been proven/borne out time and time again for millennia.


----------



## DMF

For what its worth i for one have loved these threads! As i'm right at the start of all this i've had nothing to add to the discussion so far but i would like to say that it's nice to find a place where there is a group of people who all clearly care about these subjects and i have to say overall i think the manner in which they have been discussed is a credit to this site.

I've been learning loads of you lot, of course we all have our own ways of doing things in life but it's down to me to choose my own way, this forum has provided people like me with the opportunity to hear from lots of different people with lots of different views, pretty handy really considering the many different scenarios i'm going to be coming across when i get going!

Basically it sounds like i need a few bashers (firmers as i now know) and a few tarty ones of some description :lol: 

Anyway i'll go and hide again, thanks!

Dean


----------



## marcus

> more emphasis needs to be placed upon tooling practices than the tools themselves.



The best craftspeople I have met, ie the ones producing the finest work have, without exception, cared a great deal about both. I think it has probably always been that way. I'm one hundred percent sure that the best and most skilled stone age wood carvers were the ones with the shiniest flints — and the best hand skills.

Also, how do you know that someone who posts about ways to make a chisel sharper isn't also making things? I'm sure there are a few people who do just sharpen tools and not making anything (which is their right if they enjoy it), but it's an unjustified assumption that because people are interested in tool sharpness they are not also producing work with those tools.


----------



## bugbear

GazPal":3oneq8dt said:


> bugbear":3oneq8dt said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've shown that flat chisels are needed for accurate straight cuts.
> 
> BugBear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How on earth they managed to build the Egyptian pyramids, Mayan temples, Parthenon and Harrison's wooden timepieces without perfectly flat chisels I'll never know. :roll:
> 
> Chisels have limitations when put to use and this gave rise to the development of the hand plane, abrasive papers, etc., etc.. Whilst the reach of a paring chisel is handy, the tool itself is not necessarily an accurate tool, as it's blade - by nature - is flexible and can distort during use. Especially so when it encounters grain travelling in contrary directions. This makes it necessary for one to constantly relax/increase downward pressure on the blade with one hand whilst the other steers via the handle. We don't introduce it's edge to the material and trust it will travel straight and true when driven forward primarily because it won't. Again, more emphasis needs to be placed upon tooling technique, because finite degrees of accuracy within a tool's manufacture are not the sole factors dictating accuracy in the cut. Shift focus on to chisels driven via maul or mallet and the pursuit of a perfectly straight blade becomes pointless as the steel shifts beneath each strike and wanders freely in the cut unless guided by hand and eye. Our senses play a much greater part in the ability to cut straight and true than seems accepted.
> 
> Books don't tend to teach this and a scientific approach toward chisel use tends to prove inappropriate unless every eventuality can be calculated with provision for formulae and converted to describe the physical reactions of materials, tools and tool user. But then we'd need to shift a proportion of focus away from crafting and on to calculus and translating scientific results into actions belonging in the realms of the machine driven world.
> 
> How long is a piece of string/How accurately ground should a blade be along it's length? It depends...... I mention this is because much depends upon cut dimension (Reach & breadth), blade flex and potential user error. Accurate tools are a real and genuine necessity, but - even with laser-like precision - more emphasis needs to be placed upon tooling practices than the tools themselves. Otherwise we become tool owners and not tool users and run the risk of losing sight of the skill sets developed over the ages for manipulating timber into various forms.
> 
> I tend to err on the side of accurate layout, sound technique and matching a tool to it's given task as being necessary for one to achieve accurate work. Straight or curved. Pinpoint accuracy in woodworking is perfectly possible without any need for engineering tolerances in the tools we use and this fact has been proven/borne out time and time again for millennia.
Click to expand...


Everything you say is true, but (I believe) addresses a broader question (and context) than the one I was positing, which was the specific act of paring (which does not require a long, patterning maker's paring chisel).

It is (I thought) fairly obvious that a flat backed chisel, taking a fine paring cut, will pretty much continue in a straight line for a short distance, which is what most joints involve. Conversely, a curved or back bevelled chisel will require a great deal more input and control from the operator for the same operation.

Flat does not have to mean polished, of course.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

bugbear":17r147rz said:


> marcus":17r147rz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..I can't work out if he is trolling for fun or actually means what he says...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never been able to answer that one either. I think it's quite a lot of both.
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...

Of course I mean what I say. Do you think I am furtively flattening my chisels in secret? 
There is a vast amount of silly misinformation doing the rounds which wastes a lot of time and resources. It's often very plausible on paper or on video and many of the perpetrators seem to acquire guru status, esp with novices. But in practice it's often worthless, and they should be ignored. 
I came to this conclusion after getting more interested in hand tools over the last few years and doing a lot of fiddling about trial and error. Before that I even used to use a honing jig! Silly me! And I have been making wooden stuff all my life and earning a living from it, starting in 1969 selling wooden toys to Carnaby Street shops. Anybody remember "Gear" and next door "Kids in Gear"?


----------



## marcus

> Conversely, a curved or back bevelled chisel will require a great deal more input and control from the operator for the same operation.



This has been my experience with tasks like trimming tenon cheeks. It's easier, quicker and pleasanter if the chisel is flat. I'm not talking engineering flat. But the point is if you like to keep your chisel backs flat for this reason, and you like the additional sharpness that a polished back brings, then the back needs to be flat enough so that when you rub it flat on the stone the mm or so behind the cutting edge is polished. Which sometimes takes a bit of work when the chisel is new, but in my experience repays you with increased efficiency and enjoyment thereafter. Which is why most of us who do it, do it.

And no I am not advocating engineering tolerances for chisels — just the work necessary to get the result indicated above.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Right, that's that out of the way, then. I assume we should all flatten the soles of our planes? No!..........no!............don't go there!


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Yes, I meant flat not "co-planar".


----------



## Jacob

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't be flat. But what we are saying is that madge (our OP) is wasting her time - routine flattening of all new chisels is nonsense - most chisels are flat enough for all normal purposes and just need sharpening. That's all!
Not many people have taken much notice of the OP, except some suggestion that Blue spruce chisels shouldn't need flattening. :shock: 
What would you say to madge?


----------



## bugbear

phil.p":2w76c7le said:


> Right, that's that out of the way, then. I assume we should all flatten the soles of our planes? No!..........no!............don't go there!



Jacob argued long and loud against that, with his usual vitriol.

Later he sold a plane because the sole wasn't flat enough (although the fault was omittted from the eBay description) , and now advises "sagely" on flattening technique.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

Talking nonsense and trolling again BB!
What would you say to madge (OP)?


----------



## Peter Sefton

Peter Sefton":3687kiru said:


> We do have 80 micron (180 grit) lapping films - 100 is pretty coarse for such high quality chisels, the finer the abrasive the flatter it will be and the more imperfections it will highlight on tools.
> 
> I have never lapped Blue Spruce but would be reluctant to do so on very coarse abrasives as I would hope the chisels are made to finer tolerances than that. Lapping on glass plate does show up all manufacturing imperfections which you may not show up with other sharpening mediums.



The Op was how to flatten chisels with lapping films but it would be great if Dodge could sort out a tool sharpening day, we could get together and demonstrate some techniques that we use ourselves. I would love to see Jacobs rounded bevel I have heard so much about it! I did and do still demonstrate oil stones but have progressed to other sharpening methods personally, Jacob show what I am missing (don't tell me). 
If I am on site or hacking out then the oil stones is fine and an old rounded chisel will do the job but for finer work I work to finer tolerances.


----------



## GazPal

phil.p":2hcprq6n said:


> Yes, I meant flat not "co-planar".



But of course :lol: 

------------

Back to paring, the area necessary for trimming tenon cheeks and shoulders, etc., flattens during the honing process, as we remove sharpening burrs. The amount of blade flattened varies per user and would often depend on the width of his/her sharpening stones and the scale of work undertaken, but seldom a full blade length and shouldn't involve much initial prep work.




marcus":2hcprq6n said:


> Conversely, a curved or back bevelled chisel will require a great deal more input and control from the operator for the same operation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has been my experience with tasks like trimming tenon cheeks. It's easier, quicker and pleasanter if the chisel is flat. I'm not talking engineering flat. But the point is if you like to keep your chisel backs flat for this reason, and you like the additional sharpness that a polished back brings, then the back needs to be flat enough so that when you rub it flat on the stone the mm or so behind the cutting edge is polished. Which sometimes takes a bit of work when the chisel is new, but in my experience repays you with increased efficiency and enjoyment thereafter. Which is why most of us who do it, do it.
> 
> And no I am not advocating engineering tolerances for chisels — just the work necessary to get the result indicated above.
Click to expand...


I agree and have never disagreed, but there comes a point of diminishing returns where the work invested in polishing ceases to influence end results.

It's often much easier to grind an edge or flat face back mechanically than risk wearing out oil/diamond/water stones unnecessarily. The first few swipes on an oil stone typically lends feedback to the manner of work needed. The edge of a grinding wheel easily restores an off-kilter edge and the side of the grinding wheel is typically sufficiently sound to flatten chisel and plane iron faces to an easily refined level. 

N.B. Just be sure to check grinding wheels are sound before use. If a grinding wheel is unsound you need to discard it without further use, as damaged wheels can disintegrate swiftly and violently when under load. Blood is torture to remove from timber and also rusts steel and iron like crazy if left laying around while you're at hospital getting stitches.


----------



## marcus

I think we're basically agreeing with each other!

To come back to the OP, Madge asked about whether a 40 micron lapping film was too fine for what she needed, but that is only equivalent to a p360 oilstone, which is not really engineering levels of fineness anyway....

My preferred method for flattening is to use standard aluminium oxide paper on a flat machine table and use that with a bit of oil. Starting at p60 and working up from there is pretty quick and saves the stones. I'm nervous about using the side of the wheel as I got told horror stories when I was training....


----------



## MickCheese

Please. Please. Please stop!  

Nine pages and still going. 

Help!

Mick


----------



## Jacob

Paul Chapman":34go1mxb said:


> marcus":34go1mxb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously it's a waste of time and energy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why so many people don't bother posting on here any more.......
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul
Click to expand...

Yers terrible innit. So quiet. Only 9 pages; that's nothing nowadays.
If more people bothered to post this thread could be much much longer!


----------



## GazPal

marcus":3cz5rfj3 said:


> more emphasis needs to be placed upon tooling practices than the tools themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The best craftspeople I have met, ie the ones producing the finest work have, without exception, cared a great deal about both. I think it has probably always been that way. I'm one hundred percent sure that the best and most skilled stone age wood carvers were the ones with the shiniest flints — and the best hand skills.
> 
> Also, how do you know that someone who posts about ways to make a chisel sharper isn't also making things? I'm sure there are a few people who do just sharpen tools and not making anything (which is their right if they enjoy it), but it's an unjustified assumption that because people are interested in tool sharpness they are not also producing work with those tools.
Click to expand...


I learned long ago never to assume anything. I'm speaking from a crafting perspective and not tool study. Sharpening typically indicates a desire to use the tool being sharpened. Tool study rightly belongs within the realms of toolmaking and historical society such as TATHS.

Good craftsmen and women genuinely care for their tools and treat them with due respect. I've worked alongside many good craftsmen, but very few spend time polishing tools. Primarily because you're far too tired at the end of a heavy shift at work to be bothered with polishing the living daylights out of everything in sight. IMHO good tool maintenance is vital and tools are seldom roughly handled, but a craftsman's interest in his/her tools is seldom taken to the extent of altar worship. 

Why on earth should my views rile you so? I'm simply stating perspective based upon almost half a century of experience as a professional within the field of woodworking and at no point have I stated anyone lacks the right to follow their own route. The point regarding over emphasis upon sharpening tends to revolve around time spent away from crafting and the risk of over analysing the various process involved at the cost of furthering crafting involvement. 

Sharpening isn't and needn't be thought of as science unless you're a metallurgist or blade manufacturer.


----------



## marcus

> Why on earth should my views rile you so?



They don't! By and large I agree with you!


----------



## Lons

Jacob":2oyvjtek said:


> Yers terrible innit. So quiet. Only 9 pages; that's nothing nowadays.
> If more people bothered to post this thread could be much much longer!



Not a case of being bothered. More like already read this stuff in previous posts. I'm sure you just cut and paste it. It's like a broken record on autoplay sometimes.
There you go, I've made it a bit longer :wink: 

Bob


----------



## Lons

DMF":2q4ivxpm said:


> I've been learning loads of you lot, of course we all have our own ways of doing things in life but it's down to me to choose my own way, this forum has provided people like me with the opportunity to hear from lots of different people with lots of different views, pretty handy really considering the many different scenarios i'm going to be coming across when i get going! Dean



Sensible approach imo Dean. Take the advice, give anything you fancy a go and make up your own mind what suits your way of working.




> At first I thought that arguing with Jacob was like taking candy from a baby. Then I realised it's not as interesting as that. It's like taking candy from a baby who's incapable of realising that the candy's gone.



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Bob


----------



## powertools

I have just spent 2 days rebuilding an engine.
To me the joy of wood work is that I don't need to work to 1 thou of an inch.


----------



## carlb40

powertools":vb3epqcu said:


> I have just spent 2 days rebuilding an engine.
> To me the joy of wood work is that I don't need to work to 1 thou of an inch.


That's because you haven't flattened and polished the backs of your chisels enough :mrgreen:


----------



## marcus

> That's because you haven't flattened and polished the backs of your chisels enough



(hammer)


----------



## bobbybirds

I will always "flatten" the backs of my chisels and plane irons when I first get them about an inch or so behind the cutting edge. I don't go for a mirror polish though. It takes a very short period of time and confirms for me whether or not I am starting with a flat tool. After that initial couple minutes of work, I never look back and just carry on sharpening normally. I don't see why this is considered a waste of time (OMG 2 minutes of my life used up once in the lifetime of a tool!) as in my mind, it really is more just about confirming the starting condition of a tool. If it was already flat enough, very little effort was required, and if it was totally out of whack, I would now know what I need to do to either fix or replace it...


----------



## Jacob

It's a waste of time when people are spending an hour or more at it and still not getting it right(see OP). 2 minutes is a bit excessive but fine!


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Jacob":84eep2d0 said:


> It's a waste of time when people are spending an hour or more at it and still not getting it right(see OP). 2 minutes is fine!




Now what are we talking about?


----------



## GazPal

I'm wondering if this - sometimes - excessive amount of time spent flattening is due to newcomers not realising there's protective lacquer on most new chisel/plane blades which needs stripping before they begin. The presence of lacquer could also account for false readings when initial checks are made.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Off tack, but I wonder how many people strip the lacquer from hard point saws? - it makes hell of a difference to the use of the finer toothed ones.


----------



## bobbybirds

GazPal":3fdydsfc said:


> I'm wondering if this - sometimes - excessive amount of time spent flattening is due to newcomers not realising there's protective lacquer on most new chisel/plane blades which needs stripping before they begin. The presence of lacquer could also account for false readings when initial checks are made.


I made this exact mistake the first time I tried to flatten my first set of chisels. Only took one to figure it out though...


----------



## GazPal

bobbybirds":3g6zmqkp said:


> GazPal":3g6zmqkp said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if this - sometimes - excessive amount of time spent flattening is due to newcomers not realising there's protective lacquer on most new chisel/plane blades which needs stripping before they begin. The presence of lacquer could also account for false readings when initial checks are made.
> 
> 
> 
> I made this exact mistake the first time I tried to flatten my first set of chisels. Only took one to figure it out though...
Click to expand...


I think most have made the same or similar mistakes at some point in their learning.  Deviation from absolute flat in a blade is virtually imperceivable in the majority of cases. 



phil.p":3g6zmqkp said:


> Off tack, but I wonder how many people strip the lacquer from hard point saws? - it makes hell of a difference to the use of the finer toothed ones.



I think it'll be a fair old mixture of results with statements between "Never done it and don't need to" to "I do it with every saw and love the end result"


----------



## Harbo

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/106 ... ng-eletter


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Life's too short - It might look nice, but it serves no earthly purpose.


----------



## GazPal

Ref Harbo's FWW link:

Method and timescale can vary greatly depending upon the quality of steel involved and abrasive used. General tolerances for run of the mill (Construction grade including cladding, building blocks, flag stones, block pavers and kerbs) granite and concrete surfacing slabs are 3.2mm +/- per 910mm run and - although both materials can be carefully ground (Using rubbing blocks) to much finer tolerances - the amount of work involved can vary greatly with different batches of stone and concrete. A granite slab may appear perfectly flat, but it's surprising just how good a finish you can achieve on a far from true surface, as the "If it looks good, it is good" rule of thumb often applies.

Much of the discussion has revolved around the continuing fervor for flattening an entire chisel blade length or flattening plane irons to the point where main body terminates ahead of the slot, but nothing truly contrary to the need to refine both bevel and face to a matching degree of polish. Level of finish/polish depends upon end use and resulting improvements in edge retention and sharpness, but returns can diminish by quite a degree when taken beyond 3,000 grit. Especially so if one considers the fact some timbers are far more abrasive than others and a razor-like chisel/plane iron edge can be lost during the first contact between tool and working medium.


----------



## bugbear

GazPal":10yhozrg said:


> Level of finish/polish depends upon end use and resulting improvements in edge retention and sharpness, but returns can diminish by quite a degree when taken beyond 3,000 grit. Especially so if one considers the fact some timbers are far more abrasive than others and a razor-like chisel/plane iron edge can be lost during the first contact between tool and working medium.



Especially for our Australian brethren.

It is interesting (for some...) that there is research showing that a polished
edge degrade more slowly (last longer) than a crude edge.

http://www.amgron.clara.net/page72.html

BugBear


----------



## GazPal

bugbear":2ajpi1tp said:


> GazPal":2ajpi1tp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Level of finish/polish depends upon end use and resulting improvements in edge retention and sharpness, but returns can diminish by quite a degree when taken beyond 3,000 grit. Especially so if one considers the fact some timbers are far more abrasive than others and a razor-like chisel/plane iron edge can be lost during the first contact between tool and working medium.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Especially for our Australian brethren.
> 
> It is interesting (for some...) that there is research showing that a polished
> edge degrade more slowly (last longer) than a crude edge.
> 
> http://www.amgron.clara.net/page72.html
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


I'd agree wholeheartedly, but for the fact some timbers can crucify an edge regardless of it's level of finesse. Especially if there's a mismatch between honing angle and duties the blade is being put to. Many sharpeners also don't realise the need to vary direction of blade travel with each consecutive grit (e.g. straight, diagonal left, diagonal right, straight, etc.), otherwise progressively smaller grits are simply tracking in previously made scratch marks.

Ideally we'd run through each progressive grit involving much closer sequences/shorter leaps between grits, but this seldom happens or proves practical if the priority is to work using a blade/iron instead of spending a great deal of time honing/whetting edges. 

Quite often it's simply a case of matching edge finesse to the work at hand.


----------



## wem

I have never been able to get a mirror polish on the back of my blades?


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Just as well you don't need to, then.


----------



## Fromey

GazPal":24gx6yvk said:


> I'm wondering if this - sometimes - excessive amount of time spent flattening is due to newcomers not realising there's protective lacquer on most new chisel/plane blades which needs stripping before they begin. The presence of lacquer could also account for false readings when initial checks are made.



Interesting. What's the best way to remove it and does anyone know if Narex chisels come with lacquer. I suspect they do as it would account for what I see around the business end of them when I first use them. Is it just the tips that are lacquered or the whole ironworks?


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Paint stripper usually works.


----------



## GazPal

Fromey":29wdgzeg said:


> GazPal":29wdgzeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if this - sometimes - excessive amount of time spent flattening is due to newcomers not realising there's protective lacquer on most new chisel/plane blades which needs stripping before they begin. The presence of lacquer could also account for false readings when initial checks are made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. What's the best way to remove it and does anyone know if Narex chisels come with lacquer. I suspect they do as it would account for what I see around the business end of them when I first use them. Is it just the tips that are lacquered or the whole ironworks?
Click to expand...



Some makers only coat the blade tips, but most I've seen have a fully coated blade/iron for the sake of pre-sales storage and shipping. I normally give them a wipe over with lacquer thinner or paint stripper, but acetone will work too and - if you think you can get away with it - you could always raid SWMBO's supply.


----------



## Jacob

I've actual flattened one today. It's a very nice old 1/2" stanley 5001 from ebay which unfortunately had been "flattened" by the previous owner leaving the face dubbed over at the edge corners and down both sides, so the round-over would never go away without flattening, or applying a permanent back bevel. NB if this was a new one I'd have sent it back as faulty goods.
I don't normally do this but I thought of this thread! 
Didn't take long on Tilgear Ezelap diamond plates (coarse, medium fine). 
Film and/or paper is not a good idea IMHO as it's fragile and tends to dub the edges over unless you are very careful. Not to mention slow and expensive.
With a solid plate or stone you can use maximum force and pressure and get the job done in a few minutes. Not water stones obviously (too soft) so has to be diamond plate or oil stone in good condition.


----------



## carlb40

Fromey":2oohl5oj said:


> GazPal":2oohl5oj said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if this - sometimes - excessive amount of time spent flattening is due to newcomers not realising there's protective lacquer on most new chisel/plane blades which needs stripping before they begin. The presence of lacquer could also account for false readings when initial checks are made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. What's the best way to remove it and does anyone know if Narex chisels come with lacquer. I suspect they do as it would account for what I see around the business end of them when I first use them. Is it just the tips that are lacquered or the whole ironworks?
Click to expand...



My Narex chisel that i purchased last week has a lacquer coating on the whole blade. To be reviewed soon


----------



## GazPal

carlb40":s9goj4cq said:


> Fromey":s9goj4cq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GazPal":s9goj4cq said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if this - sometimes - excessive amount of time spent flattening is due to newcomers not realising there's protective lacquer on most new chisel/plane blades which needs stripping before they begin. The presence of lacquer could also account for false readings when initial checks are made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. What's the best way to remove it and does anyone know if Narex chisels come with lacquer. I suspect they do as it would account for what I see around the business end of them when I first use them. Is it just the tips that are lacquered or the whole ironworks?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> My Narex chisel that i purchased last week has a lacquer coating on the whole blade. To be reviewed soon
Click to expand...



I've every confidence your Narex chisel purchase will prove a positive experience. Regarding lacquer removal, I often haunt Lidl when they have tool offers on and find their lacquer thinner is pretty good for stripping back protective coatings on new blades. :wink: It will strip screen printed lettering from chisel backs, but you can always work around that area, as the only parts in need of stripping are areas likely to come in contact with sharpening stones/plates.


----------



## GazPal

Jacob":1rt8azfi said:


> I've actual flattened one today. It's a very nice old 1/2" stanley 5001 from ebay which unfortunately had been "flattened" by the previous owner leaving the face dubbed over at the edge corners and down both sides, so the round-over would never go away without flattening, or applying a permanent back bevel. NB if this was a new one I'd have sent it back as faulty goods.
> I don't normally do this but I thought of this thread!
> Didn't take long on Tilgear Ezelap diamond plates (coarse, medium fine).
> Film and/or paper is not a good idea IMHO as it's fragile and tends to dub the edges over unless you are very careful. Not to mention slow and expensive.
> With a solid plate or stone you can use maximum force and pressure and get the job done in a few minutes. Not water stones obviously (too soft) so has to be diamond plate or oil stone in good condition.




It has to be one of the worst things, when you find someone has misunderstood what's involved in the tool prep process and you find yourself needing to remedy mistakes before you're able to put a tool to good use. Quite often a little prep goes a very long way in helping you gain the most from a piece of equipment, whereas an overzealous approach can virtually kill anyone's chances of obtaining the same end results. Little is very often more and certainly far better than overkill.

I've just picked up one of Tilgear's black Arkansas 8" x 2" stones for my son and it's not bad at all in comparison to the one I've been using since Moses was a lad.


----------



## bugbear

GazPal":23n7grmk said:


> It has to be one of the worst things, when you find someone has misunderstood what's involved in the tool prep process and you find yourself needing to remedy mistakes before you're able to put a tool to good use.



Agreed - although ignorant long term use can have similar consequences.

One particular nightmare is back beveled garden shears - this can be done in around 30-60 second to a degree which is (AFAIK) irrecoverable :-(

BugBear


----------



## GazPal

bugbear":1ldvq4hf said:


> GazPal":1ldvq4hf said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has to be one of the worst things, when you find someone has misunderstood what's involved in the tool prep process and you find yourself needing to remedy mistakes before you're able to put a tool to good use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed - although ignorant long term use can have similar consequences.
> 
> One particular nightmare is back beveled garden shears - this can be done in around 30-60 second to a degree which is (AFAIK) irrecoverable :-(
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


Possibly even less time.  I once had a 2nd year college trainee on short term placement in my workshop and - after asking to check the toolkit he had when he arrived - was astounded to discover he'd double bevelled several new chisels the college had provided. I honestly don't know where he'd learnt that trick, but he didn't last beyond a few days with me and definitely confirmed the reasons why I don't loan or share tools.


----------



## Jacob

I've got a really nice oval bolster 1/8" mortice chisel which has been polished . The trapezoid section has been rounded slightly so that it's now slightly fatter in the middle which means it sticks tight instead of slipping out when you lever it back and forwards to loosen it. 
Still usable but with unnecessary difficulty. I'm wondering about flattening the sides to get the shape and the nice sharp edges back. A lot of work and it'd end up thinner but they go down to 1/16" I believe. I've got a project involving slots.

So polishers and flatteners out there - do yourselves (and us) a favour and stop it immediately!


----------



## Corneel

Jacob":2yqrfude said:


> I've actual flattened one today. It's a very nice old 1/2" stanley 5001 from ebay which unfortunately had been "flattened" by the previous owner leaving the face dubbed over at the edge corners and down both sides, so the round-over would never go away without flattening, or applying a permanent back bevel. NB if this was a new one I'd have sent it back as faulty goods.
> I don't normally do this but I thought of this thread!
> Didn't take long on Tilgear Ezelap diamond plates (coarse, medium fine).
> Film and/or paper is not a good idea IMHO as it's fragile and tends to dub the edges over unless you are very careful. Not to mention slow and expensive.
> With a solid plate or stone you can use maximum force and pressure and get the job done in a few minutes. Not water stones obviously (too soft) so has to be diamond plate or oil stone in good condition.




That's how most of mine arrive in my shop. It's what turned me into an obsessive back flattener.
Indeed sandpaper doesn't work as good as it should. Dubbing the edges is very easy.
I wonder about the diamond stone. Can you press down hard without damaging the plate? I always thought you shouldn't press down hard on these, otherwise the bond between plate and diamonds could break loose.
At the moment I do the heavy lifting with a Sigma 120 stone. That's a waterstone, but it's very hard. I also think about getting some coarse diamondpaste and a flat plate, to see if that is quicker.


----------



## Jacob

Corneel":3lr1rqmi said:


> [....
> I wonder about the diamond stone. Can you press down hard without damaging the plate? I always thought you shouldn't press down hard on these, otherwise the bond between plate and diamonds could break loose.....


Seems OK so far. I've had them about a year and have done a lot of sharpening.
The diamonds shouldn't detach - not the same but I've had the same 3M diapads for many years and they seem to last forever even with a lot of rough work (nb not sharpening), so firmly attached diamonds apparently are possible.


----------



## bugbear

Corneel":2spxv14m said:


> I wonder about the diamond stone. Can you press down hard without damaging the plate? I always thought you shouldn't press down hard on these, otherwise the bond between plate and diamonds could break loose.



I recall (but can't place) a thread about diamond plate longevity, with some people saying they lasted for ever, and others saying they wore out in 6 months.

After some useful information exchange, it emerged that pressing too hard was the obvious cause of wear.

BugBear


----------



## Corneel

Thanks for your opinions, Jacob and Bugbear


----------



## bobbybirds

I have been using DMT diamond plates (along with water stones at higher grits) since 2010, and on them I have flattened (or better said, confirmed flatness and/or flattened) and sharpened from new a set of 8 and a set of 9 bench chisels, set of 4 paring chisels, a few skews and fishtails, as well as many multiple plane irons, kitchen knives, pockets knives and other tools etc, as well as day to day sharpening duties, and using the plates to flatten my water stones. The DMT diamond plates are still very fast cutting and reliably flat to this day. I would not hesitate to buy them again if/when they wear out...


----------



## GazPal

While initial "bite" can drift off as a new diamond stone settles into use, the norm is to use light pressure - as you would with oil and water stones - and allow the diamond's texture to do it's work. If the cut isn't sufficiently aggressive, simply switch to a coarser grit.


----------



## Jelly

Jacob":2i94iq03 said:


> Film and/or paper is not a good idea IMHO as it's fragile and tends to dub the edges over unless you are very careful. Not to mention slow and expensive.
> With a solid plate or stone you can use maximum force and pressure and get the job done in a few minutes. Not water stones obviously (too soft) so has to be diamond plate or oil stone in good condition.



My experience is that paper is more than adequate for the final stages when you want a very sharp edge, i keep a few sheets of P2000 through P6000 abrasive papers kicking around for just that... However 95% of the time there's no need to go beyond the fine oil-stone.

That said, if I was say, carving and needed to frequently sharpen tools to that level of sharpness, I'd probably get a dedicated super-fine stone, in regular use it would work out more economical to do it that way.


----------



## barkwindjammer

Are we nearly there yet ?


----------



## frankederveen

Hi, 

I've just sort of finished flattening the back of a new wide narex chisel (40mm) and it was hard work! Getting the lacquer removed was fairly easy with some nail polish remover (not mine . The whole surface of the chisel seems to be ribbed for our flattening pleasure. The bit near the edge is now mostly flat and smooth so the wire edge can be removed easily but it took a good while on a 500 grit shapton waterstone which needed flattening itself every few minutes. 

Once polished up a little it seems like quite a good chisel. Initially sharpened at 25 degrees the edge didn't last very long but now at 30 degrees it seems a lot better. 

I expect to do a bit more flattening later. The back is mostly flat but not very smooth yet.. 

Regards, 
Frank


----------



## Jacob

barkwindjammer":2xywe173 said:


> Are we nearly there yet ?


Dunno. Too soon to say. :roll:


frankederveen":2xywe173 said:


> ....
> I've just sort of finished flattening the back of a new wide narex chisel (40mm) and it was hard work!....


You should have sent it back. There's a video somewhere of Matthew - he flattens them all before they are sent off, and so he should. Yours was obviously missed - get your money back!
PS I bought a set of Axminster cheapos and non of them needed flattening. The manufacturers have the kit to do this, it isn't rocket science there is no excuse.


> ....500 grit shapton waterstone which needed flattening itself every few minutes.....


That's ridiculous. An oil stone doesn't need flattening ever (if used carefully) and lasts for life.
I find it really weird that so many people have been persuaded into this daft rituals. Helps sell the gear I suppose.
A huge army of people struggling away with difficult solutions to simple problems, with smart-alec salesmen smirking behind their backs. :roll:

IF A NEW CHISEL NEEDS FLATTENING IT IS DEFECTIVE - SEND IT BACK
Sounds like you have defective chisel AND defective stone!


----------



## GazPal

frankederveen":3rgbk031 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just sort of finished flattening the back of a new wide narex chisel (40mm) and it was hard work! Getting the lacquer removed was fairly easy with some nail polish remover (not mine . The whole surface of the chisel seems to be ribbed for our flattening pleasure. The bit near the edge is now mostly flat and smooth so the wire edge can be removed easily but it took a good while on a 500 grit shapton waterstone which needed flattening itself every few minutes.
> 
> Once polished up a little it seems like quite a good chisel. Initially sharpened at 25 degrees the edge didn't last very long but now at 30 degrees it seems a lot better.
> 
> I expect to do a bit more flattening later. The back is mostly flat but not very smooth yet..
> 
> Regards,
> Frank



I hope your experience hasn't put you off, as Narex produce some nice chisels, but it's good to know you resolved potential edge retention issues by increasing your honing angle to something more practical. 17 - 25 deg is fine for paring, but definitely not well suited to work involving a chisel:mallet combination and somewhere closer to 35 - 40 deg for mortising. I have to agree with Jacob re the point he made concerning you having to spend so much time flattening a brand new blade.

How far out of flat would you say it was? 

For future reference I'd recommend using a much coarser grit (Est 220 grit or less) for roughing-in and then refine the resulting surface using increasingly finer grits.


----------



## frankederveen

Hi,



GazPal":2wgkrgt2 said:


> I hope your experience hasn't put you off, as Narex produce some nice chisels, but it's good to know you resolved potential edge retention issues by increasing your honing angle to something more practical. 17 - 25 deg is fine for paring, but definitely not well suited to work involving a chisel:mallet combination and somewhere closer to 35 - 40 deg for mortising.



When I had it at 25 degrees it was only used for a few minutes to do some light paring on some scrap oak. I know 25 degrees is a very low angle but I wanted to give it a try. At 30 the edge looks much better after the same test and it is still very, very sharp. No complaints there. Since this is such a wide chisel I don't plan to ever use it with a mallet.



GazPal":2wgkrgt2 said:


> How far out of flat would you say it was?



Sorry, I am afraid I may not not have been very clear. English is not my first or second language. The back was quite flat but not very smooth. There were ridges running from side to side all the way to the tip which could be easily seen and felt with a fingernail. It has the same on the upper side but there it doesn't bother me of course. Before I worked on the back it was very hard to get sharp as the burr could not be fully removed.

My other chisels are mostly LN which are obviously a bit more expensive but in this case I think you do get what you pay for. After an evening's work it is now quite a good chisel so I am happy with it now; I just don't think I would want to go through the process again.



GazPal":2wgkrgt2 said:


> For future reference I'd recommend using a much coarser grit (Est 220 grit or less) for roughing-in and then refine the resulting surface using increasingly finer grits.



Thanks, I will keep that in mind; those are probably quite soft and need to be flattened quite often as well? Maybe a coarse diamond stone would help but those are quite $$.

Frank


----------



## GazPal

frankederveen":3icsbpet said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> GazPal":3icsbpet said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope your experience hasn't put you off, as Narex produce some nice chisels, but it's good to know you resolved potential edge retention issues by increasing your honing angle to something more practical. 17 - 25 deg is fine for paring, but definitely not well suited to work involving a chisel:mallet combination and somewhere closer to 35 - 40 deg for mortising.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I had it at 25 degrees it was only used for a few minutes to do some light paring on some scrap oak. I know 25 degrees is a very low angle but I wanted to give it a try. At 30 the edge looks much better after the same test and it is still very, very sharp. No complaints there. Since this is such a wide chisel I don't plan to ever use it with a mallet.
> 
> 
> 
> GazPal":3icsbpet said:
> 
> 
> 
> How far out of flat would you say it was?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I am afraid I may not not have been very clear. English is not my first or second language. The back was quite flat but not very smooth. There were ridges running from side to side all the way to the tip which could be easily seen and felt with a fingernail. It has the same on the upper side but there it doesn't bother me of course. Before I worked on the back it was very hard to get sharp as the burr could not be fully removed.
> 
> My other chisels are mostly LN which are obviously a bit more expensive but in this case I think you do get what you pay for. After an evening's work it is now quite a good chisel so I am happy with it now; I just don't think I would want to go through the process again.
> 
> 
> 
> GazPal":3icsbpet said:
> 
> 
> 
> For future reference I'd recommend using a much coarser grit (Est 220 grit or less) for roughing-in and then refine the resulting surface using increasingly finer grits.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks, I will keep that in mind; those are probably quite soft and need to be flattened quite often as well? Maybe a coarse diamond stone would help but those are quite $$.
> 
> Frank
Click to expand...


You're very welcome Frank. I can barely handle English, but hadn't realised English was your third language.

What is the width of the chisel in question?

Machining marks don't tend to affect flatness too adversely and unless a blade/iron is seriously out of whack, I only tend to flatten the first 0.5" - 1" (12mm - 25mm) of blades/irons. The remainder of the blade flattens naturally with repeated visits to the stone during the lifespan of the tool.

For roughing-in I'd tend to use a coarse Ezi-Lap/DMT diamond plate if I didn't own a bench grinder, but chose an 8" x 2" (200mm x 50mm) instead of their wider options. This keeps cost down and won't harm utility in any way.

Here's a link for you to check out DMT extra extra coarse diamond plates.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/dmt-dia-shar ... rod460529/


----------



## jhwbigley

Jacob":f36r1zg4 said:


> IF A NEW CHISEL NEEDS FLATTENING IT IS DEFECTIVE - SEND IT BACK
> Sounds like you have defective chisel AND defective stone!



If you'll cover the quid and a bit postage, I'll send you one of the horrible green handled things. And them you can show/time how little work you need to get a new chisel it ready to work.

JH


----------



## Jacob

jhwbigley":1vfdtjff said:


> Jacob":1vfdtjff said:
> 
> 
> 
> IF A NEW CHISEL NEEDS FLATTENING IT IS DEFECTIVE - SEND IT BACK
> Sounds like you have defective chisel AND defective stone!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you'll cover the quid and a bit postage, I'll send you one of the horrible green handled things. And them you can show/time how little work you need to get a new chisel it ready to work.
> 
> JH
Click to expand...

Right ho. PM sent. (hm is the wise? :shock: )


----------



## jhwbigley

Jacob":11cdumoc said:


> JH


Right ho. PM sent. (hm is the wise? :shock: )[/quote]

No PM here?


----------



## Jacob

jhwbigley":3sbj747o said:


> Jacob":3sbj747o said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right ho. PM sent. (hm is the wise? :shock: )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No PM here?
Click to expand...

Oops sorry I sent it to myself somehow. Now on it's way to you


----------



## mickthetree

Cheaper from workshopheaven:
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/DMT ... Stone.html
I had a course waterstone once. ruddy horrible thing. Dished in seconds. Got rid as soon as possible.


----------



## Jacob

mickthetree":1h6y7bgy said:


> Cheaper from workshopheaven:
> http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/DMT ... Stone.html
> I had a course waterstone once. ruddy horrible thing. Dished in seconds. Got rid as soon as possible.


Strewth I hadn't realised they were so expensive. Eze Lap are a lot cheaper.
I might have missed something but what is the point of using an expensive waterstone if you need a £100+ diamond plate to flatten it (every few minutes by some accounts)? Why not use the diamond plate for sharpening instead?
Come to think, what is the point of using using an expensive waterstone at all, if you have to flatten it every few minutes ? Obviously the wrong stone for the job IMHO.

PS Eze Lap here at Rutlands. They've gone up a lot since I bought the same set. I don't think I'd buy them again at that price.
All my trials and errors with various options seems to point back to freehand with oilstones as the only sensible way. I thought this years ago, I wish I'd stuck to it!


----------



## Racers

Hi, Jacob

Is you use the right technique water stones stay flat for some time, and they can be quickly flattened with wet and dry.
They do cut fast so you don't spend as much time sharpening.
You aught to try some.

Pete


----------



## mickthetree

Do ezelap do an extra extra course? Saw one of these in axminster the other day, looks like its got teeth!! 

You don't need a £100+ diamond stone to flatten a water stone, but I wouldn't use a budget one as they are not generally flat.

Clearly sharpening has become part of the "hobby" of woodwork. An enjoyable quiet pass time where (mainly) men in sheds can polish bits of steel to their hearts content. Each to their own and I'm sure they enjoy themselves. I surely did. As I have progressed as a hobby woodworker, I have learnt that I enjoy making stuff more than sharpening stuff, but as a hobby I enjoyed learning how to do it using what ever methods were available, including abrasives, oil stones, water stones and diamond stones. Its all learning, education, skill development isn't it! Which can never be a bad thing IMHO.

If it is your trade then the most efficient system possible is where you want to be, but that doesn't fit for everyone.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

The best sharpening system for you is the one that suits you and your needs best. End of story. Simple. That's it.


----------



## Fromey

mickthetree":1fi2a39i said:


> Do ezelap do an extra extra course? Saw one of these in axminster the other day, looks like its got teeth!!



I've not seen greater than "coarse" in any UK online store. However, Dieter Schmid sells "extra coarse" Exe-Lap plates;

http://www.fine-tools.com/ezelap-diasharpener.html

I've read elsewhere that some consider the DMT extra-extra coarse is in fact too coarse and leaves deep scratches. "coarse" plates are sold for flattening stones in sharpening kits, so I've just bought a DMT one from Dick (sniggers) as they are cheaper than UK sources even with the postage factored in;

http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product ... coarse.htm


----------



## wem

Wow! those eze lap have gone up £15 each in the last few months! Get them at fine tools they are £36


----------



## mickthetree

I have a course DMT and find it still takes too long to do what I am after. Maybe someone will have one at the sharpenign demo day. Would like to see one in action.


----------



## Jacob

phil.p":2tifujgn said:


> The best sharpening system for you is the one that suits you and your needs best. End of story. Simple. That's it.


Well, er, yes and no. :shock: 

I'm amazed at the soft stone scenario I hadn't realised that's what people were doing - i.e. flattening chisels (which most likely don't need flattening) using expensive soft water stones which don't stay flat :roll: AND then flattening these obviously unsuitable stones on really expensive diamond plates - every few minutes!!
I don't get it at all.

Whose idea was it? I think he should be taken out and flattened.


----------



## Racers

Jacob

Only you could misinterpret what has been written in this thread in such a stupid way, we don't do what you think.

Phil P comment was correct its what ever works for you is the best system, stop forcing your opinion on people if its not sharpening its benches, we are all different and like to work in different ways.
You like to bang on about your pet subjects and that might put people off, and it spoils the threads needles arguing back and forth just because people won't do things your way, can you not stop commenting?

Pete


----------



## Jacob

Pete

If you don't like reading or discussing alternative views of how to do things then why don't you just keep out of the thread?


----------



## bugbear

Racers":1p7318fd said:


> Jacob
> 
> Only you could misinterpret what has been written in this thread in such a stupid way, we don't do what you think.



It's a standard tactic of the dishonest debater.

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skep ... html#straw

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

If you bother to read various threads posted recently you will see that several people have been doing just what I said i.e. using soft water stones for flattening which themselves require flattening ("every few minutes" in one thread), and diamond plates are bought for this purpose. No tactic involved, not stupid and not dishonest. 

The previous 2 posters stupid and dishonest tactic is to attack the messenger when they don't like the message. Always an indication that they have lost the argument, such as it is, and an attempt to turn it into a slanging match instead.


----------



## Fromey

bugbear":2i6go28a said:


> It's a standard tactic of the dishonest debater.
> 
> http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skep ... html#straw
> 
> BugBear



Cracking website Bugbear. Thanks.


----------



## Jelly

Well, it only took 13 pages before we got round to arguing about the validity (or lack thereof) of arguing about sharpening...


----------



## GazPal

Fromey":3613t685 said:


> mickthetree":3613t685 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do ezelap do an extra extra course? Saw one of these in axminster the other day, looks like its got teeth!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've not seen greater than "coarse" in any UK online store. However, Dieter Schmid sells "extra coarse" Exe-Lap plates;
> 
> http://www.fine-tools.com/ezelap-diasharpener.html
> 
> I've read elsewhere that some consider the DMT extra-extra coarse is in fact too coarse and leaves deep scratches. "coarse" plates are sold for flattening stones in sharpening kits, so I've just bought a DMT one from Dick (sniggers) as they are cheaper than UK sources even with the postage factored in;
> 
> http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product ... coarse.htm
Click to expand...


This may help and is something I learned when I was heavily involved in collecting Japanese swords and learning about sword polishing (The Japanese version of sharpening whilst enhancing surface patterns within forge welded steel and iron). 

As with water stones, the correct method of using them is to adhere to using the grits in sequence, BUT alternating direction of travel (i.e. Straight, diagonal left, diagonal right, straight) with each grit change and this helps remove scratch patterns formed via previous grits. Otherwise - if travelling in the same direction with each progressive grit - you'll often find scratch patterns "tram-line" and difficult to remove/eradicate. The difference between using diamond and water stones isn't solely wear, as diamond plates lack the ability to create slurry, which - in the later stages of sharpening - helps one refine surfaces even further by virtue of the presence of increasingly finer slurry-bound particles. Nagura stones aren't solely used for flattening, as their primary purpose is two fold in both flattening and the creation of slurry. In terms of softer stones wearing faster, it's the nature of the beast, because using harder stones on hard steel tends to be slow progress as the stone surface doesn't fracture - renewing the necessary cutting texture continually. Soft stones constantly surface fracture with their surface texture constantly renewed to reveal fresh cutting particles.

Basic rule of thumb when using water stones;

Soft stone = hard steel
Hard stone = soft steel

it's much the reason behind Japanese water stones being so highly prices and prized in Japan and - whilst not necessarily as important to carpenters - Japanese sword polishers tend to have an extremely wide selection of stones to work from due to the need to match stone to steel being worked upon.

Use of wider than necessary stones can prove problematical when sharpening items narrower than the stone's width. It proves more difficult for one to use the bulk of the stone's surface evenly, than if using narrower stone and you tend to find the need to re-flatten surfaces far more frequently than should be necessary.

I hope the above helps in some way, but need to say Jacob isn't wrong in what he says about users finding themselves needing to flatten stones far more frequently than should be necessary, but much is to do with them not fully understanding the medium with which they're working.


----------



## Corneel

I don't think flattening waterstones with each other is a very common practice. I tried that for a while and it was painfully slow, and it didn't produce really flat stones. Then I used the sandpaper on glass method for a while, but beacuse sandpaper is such a bother I reached deep into my pocket and bought an DMT extra course diamond plate. No looking back since then. Easy and quick flattening.

Waterstones certainly have disdvantages, muddy, need flattening more often then oilstones, not cheap. But they pay back in a major way. They are fast! And they just feel good, not like diamond plates which feel like scraping with fingernails on a blackboard. And the fine waterstones give you wonderfully sharp edges. And they are certainly better on the more modern steels like A2, D2, CPM3V, PM-V11.

Disadvantage of oilstones: I didn't like the oily mess and the dirty fingers. They certainly cut slower. You can't get fine stones as fine as the waterstones, so a strop is needed. And really good fine oilstones are hard to get and not cheap either. Of course, these are disadvantages you can live with, just as the disadvantages from waterstones. At the end it's what you prefer. They all get your irons sharp.


----------



## Jacob

Jelly":2kfqepr6 said:


> Well, it only took 13 pages before we got round to arguing about the validity (or lack thereof) of arguing about sharpening...


 :lol: 
I think for some people it's a struggle to come up with a good idea, so once they think they have one they get a bit possessive about it and don't want to lose it!


----------



## Corneel

Garry, the new "ceramic" waterstones, like the Sigma, the Bester and the Shaptons are a lot harder then the old clay based stones, but work a lot faster too on the new hard steels. So I guess your info is a bit old.


----------



## GazPal

Corneel":34nfb8yb said:


> Garry, the new "ceramic" waterstones, like the Sigma, the Bester and the Shaptons are a lot harder then the old clay based stones, but work a lot faster too on the new hard steels. So I guess your info is a bit old.




My information is as current as your's, but focused upon natural stones and not artificial ones. I think the point is more regarding relevance than anything to do with being up to date. Whilst Sigma, Bester and Shapton produce standardised stones, they're not necessarily harder than their natural counterparts. They simply eliminate the gamble and provide the user with qualities of a known quantity, but - IMHO the downside - they also limit user choice to a certain extent. Everything's a trade-off.


----------



## Jacob

Corneel":3pzd84wy said:


> ....... And they are certainly better on the more modern steels like A2, D2, CPM3V, PM-V11.


No prob with A2 on oilstones. I was surprised


> Disadvantage of oilstones: I didn't like the oily mess and the dirty fingers. They certainly cut slower. You can't get fine stones as fine as the waterstones, so a strop is needed. And really good fine oilstones are hard to get and not cheap either......


To keep clean I use a rare earth magnet to take off swarf and have plenty of cleaning cloth available. Old cotton sheets best.
To improve the cut I freshen the surface every now and then with a 3m diapad (like this one) but I expect wet n dry would do.
You can get all grades of oilstone down to very fine , too fine for woodwork, not too expensive.
And they last for life and never need flattening.


----------



## GazPal

Jacob":mlomjonl said:


> To keep clean I use a rare earth magnet to take off swarf and have plenty of cleaning cloth available. Old cotton sheets best.
> To improve the cut I freshen the surface every now and then with a 3m diapad (like this one) but I expect wet n dry would do.
> You can get very fine oil tones, too fine for woodwork, not too expensive.
> And they last for life and never need flattening.



Translucent Arkansas leave a beautiful edge and I think it's a flip of the coin between them and Hard Black Arkansas. Tied in with Washita and they leave a very real sense of the reasoning why many of our forebears discarded their Charnley Forest, etc. stones.


----------



## Corneel

GazPal":3iiud27d said:


> My information is as current as your's, but focused upon natural stones and not artificial ones. I think the point is more regarding relevance than anything to do with being up to date. Whilst Sigma, Bester and Shapton produce standardised stones, they're not necessarily harder than their natural counterparts. They simply eliminate the gamble and provide the user with qualities of a known quantity, but - IMHO the downside - they also limit user choice to a certain extent. Everything's a trade-off.



Ok, sorry, I didn't realise that. Natural water stones are a quite different thing I guess.


----------



## Corneel

I'm glad you are happy with your oilstones Jacob. I am happy with my waterstones.


----------



## GazPal

Corneel":1pnlqidx said:


> GazPal":1pnlqidx said:
> 
> 
> 
> My information is as current as your's, but focused upon natural stones and not artificial ones. I think the point is more regarding relevance than anything to do with being up to date. Whilst Sigma, Bester and Shapton produce standardised stones, they're not necessarily harder than their natural counterparts. They simply eliminate the gamble and provide the user with qualities of a known quantity, but - IMHO the downside - they also limit user choice to a certain extent. Everything's a trade-off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, sorry, I didn't realise that. Natural water stones are a quite different thing I guess.
Click to expand...


There's never any need for sorry my friend. 

-----------

I think much more store is placed upon use of the many varied sharpening media out there than need be. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, as I'm all for people using whichever system works for them, but I do wish it could be done without the hyperbole sometimes used via overly passionate enthusiast attempting to portray the methods/materials they use as the sole way of doing things. I feel the same way regarding views concerning tool types and uses.


----------



## CStanford

madge":2g00md6i said:


> Hi all, I recently took a plunge down the slope and got a set of blue spruce paring chisels and today I got around to flattening the backs. After refreshing my memory with a couple of youtube videos from lie nielsen and rob cosman I set to work with lapping film on float glass but the results were much less than my expectations. Even on the coarsest grade of 40 microns I achieved patchy results with all but the smallest chisels showing a polish in the centre and a good couple of mms missed around the edges. Having achieved reasonable results on a set of ashley iles in the past I was surprised that the blue spruces didn't succumb in the same way. I'm pretty sure that the film is flat with no air bubbles and I tried to apply pressure evenly and not rock the chisel as I moved it. I spent close to an hour on the 1/2 inch size and didn't end up with an even polish. I'm thinking that 40 microns just isn't coarse enough but I've scoured the internet for a coarser grade and the next size seems to be 100 - is this too coarse? I have a diamond stone with a 1000 grit side too, would that be finer than 100 micron film and suitable for the first stage? Thanks in advance for any ideas.



The measure of flatness of a chisel's back is this: it must be flat enough to flex the burr back and forth between the beveled side. If it's not you can't easily remove the burr or you have to tip the chisel up when working the back - a de facto 'Ruler Trick' which I don't particularly care for.


----------



## David C

Yes, the ruler trick is strictly verboten for chisels.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth


----------



## Jacob

Not by me it isn't! If it will get the job done it's fine. Subsequent honings will gradually remove the bevel anyway, but if it's critical you can just choose another chisel.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Jacob":2q32nrea said:


> Not by me it isn't! If it will get the job done it's fine. Subsequent honings will gradually remove the bevel anyway, but if it's critical you can just choose another chisel.



Well.....not if you've dubbed the edge of all your chisels in the rush to get the job done..... :roll:


----------



## bugbear

CStanford":30rcibqp said:


> The measure of flatness of a chisel's back is this: it must be flat enough to flex the burr back and forth between the beveled side. If it's not you can't easily remove the burr or you have to tip the chisel up when working the back - a de facto 'Ruler Trick' which I don't particularly care for.


That's a remarkably pragmatic definition of the elusive "flat *enough*"; I like it.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

jhwbigley":1f61293y said:


> Jacob":1f61293y said:
> 
> 
> 
> IF A NEW CHISEL NEEDS FLATTENING IT IS DEFECTIVE - SEND IT BACK
> Sounds like you have defective chisel AND defective stone!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you'll cover the quid and a bit postage, I'll send you one of the horrible green handled things. And then you can show/time how little work you need to get a new chisel it ready to work.
> 
> JH
Click to expand...

Chisel arrived! Nice green handle. I haven't got a green one. Looks a good quid + postage worth. Before I fiddle with it - what would you say was wrong with it jhwb?
I notice faint scratchings which seem to translate as Huddersfield Technical College?


----------



## CStanford

bugbear":1b3azg9v said:


> CStanford":1b3azg9v said:
> 
> 
> 
> The measure of flatness of a chisel's back is this: it must be flat enough to flex the burr back and forth between the beveled side. If it's not you can't easily remove the burr or you have to tip the chisel up when working the back - a de facto 'Ruler Trick' which I don't particularly care for.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a remarkably pragmatic definition of the elusive "flat *enough*"; I like it.
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


I appreciate it! I've made the same statement on other forums after which a lynch mob was quickly formed by the membership.

Flat enough to move the burr back to the beveled side is pretty darned flat and certainly flat "enough."

Cheers,

CS


----------



## GazPal

CStanford":20v2484i said:


> bugbear":20v2484i said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CStanford":20v2484i said:
> 
> 
> 
> The measure of flatness of a chisel's back is this: it must be flat enough to flex the burr back and forth between the beveled side. If it's not you can't easily remove the burr or you have to tip the chisel up when working the back - a de facto 'Ruler Trick' which I don't particularly care for.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a remarkably pragmatic definition of the elusive "flat *enough*"; I like it.
> 
> BugBear
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I appreciate it! I've made the same statement on other forums after which a lynch mob was quickly formed by the membership.
> 
> Flat enough to move the burr back to the beveled side is pretty darned flat and *certainly flat "enough*."
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> CS
Click to expand...


I'd say it's more than flat enough if a burr can be turned.

------------

I had a bit of an experience with someone taking the ruler trick to extremes on his newly bought set of chisels last summer. If ever it's possible to name it a ruler trick, as he'd double bevelled his chisels - for some unknown reason - at home before coming to "lend a hand" on some work I was doing on my new house. In spite of my managing to keep a straight face and calmly explaining the woes of what he'd done, he was adamant he was right and there was nothing wrong with the chisels. He was relegated to digging some fence post holes so he'd have a chance to think, but I'm still unsure whether or not it worked. Yep, my daughter's husband needs some work before he's straightened out and becomes a single primary bevel kinda guy. :lol:


----------



## jhwbigley

Jacob":1eb7svvp said:


> jhwbigley":1eb7svvp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob":1eb7svvp said:
> 
> 
> 
> IF A NEW CHISEL NEEDS FLATTENING IT IS DEFECTIVE - SEND IT BACK
> Sounds like you have defective chisel AND defective stone!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you'll cover the quid and a bit postage, I'll send you one of the horrible green handled things. And then you can show/time how little work you need to get a new chisel it ready to work.
> 
> JH
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chisel arrived! Nice green handle. I haven't got a green one. Looks a good quid + postage worth. Before I fiddle with it - what would you say was wrong with it jhwb?
> I notice faint scratchings which seem to translate as Huddersfield Technical College?
Click to expand...


Yes, that's where they came from originally. They went to the trouble of engraving it, but never put into use. Then who ever got them from before me decided to try to take the name off? It does make me wonder what sort of person would think its a good idea to engrave the back of a chisel! :roll: Let us know how you get on.

JH


----------



## GazPal

jhwbigley":1ab5oo46 said:


> Yes, that's where they came from originally. They went to the trouble of engraving it, but never put into use. Then who ever got them from before me decided to try to take the name off? *It does make me wonder what sort of person would think its a good idea to engrave the back of a chisel!* :roll: Let us know how you get on.
> 
> JH



The question is, if presented a kit from college would you like to have the college name emblazoned on most of your tools? Perhaps a reason for attempting to remove lettering, but methinks it more likely the tool was "borrowed on a long term" basis, or came as part of a batch of redundant stock rather than supplied to a college leaver, as most training facilities leave marking-up to the tool/toolkit's owner.

Engraving the blade (Face or back) tends to make it less likely for a potential thief to take an item, because such markings aren't easily removed. There's nothing wrong with marking tools in such a way, as long as the engraving is cleanly executed (No raised edges if stamped) and doesn't interfere with the hardened steel working surface or creation of a future cutting edge. I normally keep such engravings close to the bolster for this reason. Most old timers didn't engrave the blades on their tools because they lacked the tooling to do so and it was much easier to stamp timber, as well as avoid the risk of damaging cast iron.

Several of my handplanes were engraved with my name by a "then" girlfriend's mother who worked at G.E.C. as a parts & circuit board engraver. We unfortunately parted ways before I could have my chisels and saws engraved.


----------



## bugbear

GazPal":1nrnokzg said:


> Several of my handplanes were engraved with my name by a "then" girlfriend's mother who worked at G.E.C. as a parts & circuit board engraver. We unfortunately parted ways before I could have my chisels and saws engraved.



Engraved plane, you say?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater

BugBear


----------



## Modernist

5000 views on back flattening. I'm speechless.


----------



## GazPal

bugbear":7x5lbhxq said:


> GazPal":7x5lbhxq said:
> 
> 
> 
> Several of my handplanes were engraved with my name by a "then" girlfriend's mother who worked at G.E.C. as a parts & circuit board engraver. We unfortunately parted ways before I could have my chisels and saws engraved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Engraved plane, you say?
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


Yes, but my were engraved in standard Arial font and only involved my first initial and surname. :lol: More decorative engraving would have nice to have and I often fancied copying gundog and scrollwork elements from the sidelock on a d/b shotgun I own, but had never gotten around to it due to work commitments. I think there's even less likelihood of it happening now, as my hands have suffered far too much damage since the onset of rheumatoid arthritis back in '03.


----------



## GazPal

Modernist":rb8h8ldm said:


> 5000 views on back flattening. I'm speechless.



I think your last post confirms you're not speechless. :lol:


----------



## Jacob

GazPal":j1tzn3qw said:


> Modernist":j1tzn3qw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 5000 views on back flattening. I'm speechless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think your last post confirms you're not speechless. :lol:
Click to expand...

It ain't all over til the fat lady sings. And I've got the Bigley chisel challenge to face!
It's one of these here on ebay. Old stock but in new condition, never been sharpened - just the maker's 25º grind
I can see why a compulsive flattener wouldn't like it - the face is distinctly concave, with machine marks. So concave that if you attempt the semi-mythical paring cut with the face pressed tight down on a flat surface, it'll dive in slightly.
But I think it's perfect - the concave face means sharpening will take just a few seconds, simultaneously starting the flattening and removing the diving tendency. I'll take some snaps first.
A concave face is easy to sharpen and is self-flattening - every time it is turned over to remove the burr the flat area behind the edge gets extended slightly


----------



## bugbear

It's *convex* that is the work of the devil - concave (within reason) is a good starting point for flattening.

BugBear


----------



## Modernist

Slight concavity, standard practice by Ashley Isles


----------



## Jacob

Slight concavity, apparently standard practice with Axminster cheapos, and with various Stanley, Marples, Footprint bits n bobs over the years.
So what's all the flattening about then? They don't need it (after the first honing that is).


----------



## DTR

Jacob":319u18pq said:


> So concave that if you attempt the semi-mythical paring cut with the face pressed tight down on a flat surface, it'll dive in slightly.



I thought any bench chisel will do this, by virtue of the fact that a unhindered wedge-shaped blade will follow its own centre line; the centre line of a 30° bevel being 15° away from the axis of the chisel?

I hope that makes sense. A quick sketch probably would have been easier :?


----------



## Jacob

Surely if the chisel face is flat and pressed down onto a flat surface then the cutting edge won't engage anything? until the handle is lifted a touch. But a concave face _will_ engage at the edge.


----------



## DTR

Jacob":3e4ad1o1 said:


> Surely if the chisel face is flat and pressed down onto a flat surface then the cutting edge won't engage anything? until the handle is lifted a touch. But a concave face _will_ engage at the edge.



Ok, I see what you're saying now. I guess what I said was more of a generic statement rather than applicable to your specific scenario.


----------



## GazPal

Jacob":3ajal6t0 said:


> Surely if the chisel face is flat and pressed down onto a flat surface then the cutting edge won't engage anything? until the handle is lifted a touch. But a concave face _will_ engage at the edge.



Yes, but it would still slice slight undulations and obstructions clear of it's path. The handle would need to be raised for the edge to take a heavier bite and there'd be a need for more control.

Many seem to have different views concerning the definition of paring, but the first sentence - above - pretty much describes the act. The second sentence begins to define the act of carving, but can be applied to most actions carried out with chisels when used at low angles and as the angle of attack increases.


----------



## bugbear

Jacob":11frqasu said:


> Slight concavity, apparently standard practice with Axminster cheapos, and with various Stanley, Marples, Footprint bits n bobs over the years.



I take it "apparently standard practice" is extrapolated from a small sample?

BugBear


----------



## Jacob

bugbear":12daost7 said:


> Jacob":12daost7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Slight concavity, apparently standard practice with Axminster cheapos, and with various Stanley, Marples, Footprint bits n bobs over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take it "apparently standard practice" is extrapolated from a small sample?
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...

Well I've certainly noticed it often before and it makes good sense - easy to sharpen and self flattening. It was the first thing I noticed about the cheap Axminster set I bought some years back. 
So perhaps chisel makers know more about it than we gave them credit for. Except for Lie Nelson who recommend a long-winded tedious flattening procedure! Somebody should tell them. :lol: 
And I bet Narex are better than Matthew thinks and they also don't need flattening.

PS My sample size; perhaps a dozen chisels new from 4 or 5 different makers. And jhwbigley's green handled Marples example which I have yet to sharpen.


----------



## carlb40

Jacob":3v1uwqwn said:


> bugbear":3v1uwqwn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob":3v1uwqwn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Slight concavity, apparently standard practice with Axminster cheapos, and with various Stanley, Marples, Footprint bits n bobs over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take it "apparently standard practice" is extrapolated from a small sample?
> 
> BugBear
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well I've certainly noticed it often before and it makes good sense - easy to sharpen and self flattening. It was the first thing I noticed about the cheap Axminster set I bought some years back.
> So perhaps chisel makers know more about it than we gave them credit for. Except for Lie Nelson who recommend a long-winded tedious flattening procedure! Somebody should tell them. :lol:
> And I bet Narex are better than Matthew thinks and they also don't need flattening.
> 
> PS My sample size; perhaps a dozen chisels new from 4 or 5 different makers. And jhwbigley's green handled Marples example which I have yet to sharpen.
Click to expand...

If you watch Mathew's narex chisel sharpening video, he states that the narex come with a slight concavity on the back. He then just removes the machining marks on the tip and edge


----------



## GazPal

I tend to think the majority of good chisel manufacturers deliberately "create" a degree of lateral concavity within their blades behind the leading edge. The majority of new chisels I've bought over the years (45 + chisels by Marples, Stanley, Bahco, Footprint, etc.) have been slightly concave laterally behind their leading edges by a fraction of a mm, but seldom - if ever - been concave longitudinally.

The degree of concavity being similar in form to that found with Japanese chisels, but much more subtle.


----------



## Jacob

carlb40":flwke6zh said:


> Jacob":flwke6zh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bugbear":flwke6zh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ........
> 
> I take it "apparently standard practice" is extrapolated from a small sample?
> 
> BugBear
> 
> 
> 
> Well I've certainly noticed it often before and it makes good sense - easy to sharpen and self flattening. It was the first thing I noticed about the cheap Axminster set I bought some years back.
> So perhaps chisel makers know more about it than we gave them credit for. Except for Lie Nelson who recommend a long-winded tedious flattening procedure! Somebody should tell them. :lol:
> And I bet Narex are better than Matthew thinks and they also don't need flattening.
> 
> PS My sample size; perhaps a dozen chisels new from 4 or 5 different makers. And jhwbigley's green handled Marples example which I have yet to sharpen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you watch Mathew's narex chisel sharpening video, he states that the narex come with a slight concavity on the back. He then just removes the machining marks on the tip and edge
Click to expand...

That's allright then! I tend not to watch these videos through - too many old blokes fiddling about in sheds. :roll:


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## GazPal

carlb40":2w3w9szq said:


> If you watch Mathew's narex chisel sharpening video, he states that the narex come with a slight concavity on the back. *He then just removes the machining marks on the tip and edge*



Precisely what's been suggested all along


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## Corneel

Jacob":1dllgrop said:


> That's allright then! I tend not to watch these videos through - too many old blokes fiddling about in sheds. :roll:



 
Wouldn't the internet be much more interesting if we could watch nice young ladies fiddling around in old tin sheds?


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## GazPal

Corneel":m7wk6snu said:


> Jacob":m7wk6snu said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's allright then! I tend not to watch these videos through - too many old blokes fiddling about in sheds. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the internet be much more interesting if we could watch nice young ladies fiddling around in old tin sheds?
Click to expand...


That's a totally different forum :lol:


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## Jacob

Here's jh's chisel before and after. Old stock but unsharpened and with a cap to keep it in good nick. Ground at 25º























Distinctly concave along the length and slightly across the face so a paring cut will dive in a bit. It's not sharp so the result is more of a scrape






The kit; 2 oil stones and one strop;






The pink stone and 15 seconds later it's sharpish and machine marks almost gone (from the edge). Rounded bevel started so it's caught at the heel as well as the edge. Eventually after many sharpenings the whole bevel will be rounded with an edge at 30º;







The face near the edge is flattening out and shows up;






Another 30 seconds on beige stone and strop and it is sharp with machine marks gone (from the edge);











A planing/paring cut will pass over the surface without diving, unless you press it down near the edge and it will take off fine parings;






That's it. Say one minute in all, not counting getting the kit out and cleaning up. If you wanted it _extremely_ sharp another 30 secs on a finer stone would do it. As the rounded bevel extends it will take a bit longer to hone which means spending longer on the coarser stones to back off the bevel.

It's self flattening - every time it is honed the flat area gets extended a touch and there's certainly no need to deliberately flatten or polish

Perfectly good chisel, well worth £1 + postage! Thanks jh.


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## Jelly

Thats an awfully no-nonsense approach, definately maximises productive time... though I guess that's the point!


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## Corneel

I have two vintage Sorby paring chisels like that. They also took less then a minute to get sharp. Brilliant. All the other stuff which finds its way into my shop is nowhere near like that. Always bellied, backbeveled, drooped corners and/or haevy pitting.

Oh well, I guess that's the kind of punishment I deserve.


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## GazPal

Jacob":4oiimusk said:


> Here's jh's chisel before and after. Old stock but unsharpened and with a cap to keep it in good nick. Ground at 25º
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Distinctly concave along the length and slightly across the face so a paring cut will dive in a bit. It's not sharp so the result is more of a scrape
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The kit; 2 oil stones and one strop;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pink stone and 15 seconds later it's sharpish and machine marks almost gone (from the edge). Rounded bevel started so it's caught at the heel as well as the edge. Eventually after many sharpenings the whole bevel will be rounded with an edge at 30º;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The face near the edge is flattening out and shows up;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another 30 seconds on beige stone and strop and it is sharp with machine marks gone (from the edge);
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A planing/paring cut will pass over the surface without diving, unless you press it down near the edge and it will take off fine parings;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's it. Say one minute in all, not counting getting the kit out and cleaning up. If you wanted it _extremely_ sharp another 30 secs on a finer stone would do it. As the rounded bevel extends it will take a bit longer to hone which means spending longer on the coarser stones to back off the bevel.
> 
> It's self flattening - every time it is honed the flat area gets extended a touch and there's certainly no need to deliberately flatten or polish
> 
> Perfectly good chisel, well worth £1 + postage! Thanks jh.




Wondering what on earth all of the fuss was about in the first place, as it looks like a pretty decent chisel. :-s The polished flat will naturally expand further along the blade with repeated whetting.

Jacob, judging by feedback from sharpening, how do you think it's edge will hold up during normal use?

------------

In essence, the end result tends to be much the same regardless of whether we use abrasive papers, oil stones, water stones, diamond plates, grind wheel systems, or voo doo to prepare for and produce a finished edge. Although timescales may vary, a sound cutting edge - at a practical degree of finesse - capable of performing the tasks demanded of it can be produced with minimal financial investment. Flatness shouldn't be an issue with new tools and - quite obviously - flies out of the window when dealing with gouges and carving chisels. Flawed tools can be returned for refund or replacement, but there is a very real danger that newcomers can be misled into thinking perfectly sound tools are somehow flawed because they've read somewhere that a fully polished and flattened blade somehow makes a tool outperform the rest, or can enhance skill sets that only tend to improve with lots of practise.

Try to resist the temptation to spend a small fortune on sharpening kit until you've uncovered - for yourself via practical application - whether or not further refinement is justified. Sharpening needn't be and isn't rocket science, but it does take practise for one to obtain a sound working edge each and every time you re-hone an edge. Sharpening is as fundamental a skill set as sound tool handling technique when it boils down to successful woodworking.


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## Jacob

GazPal":35nxtc1o said:


> ............
> Jacob, judging by feedback from sharpening, how do you think it's edge will hold up during normal use?
> ..........


I did a few end grain paring cuts and noticed one or two _very_ fine lines appearing which means flaws in the edge, or insufficient honing. Either way I'd expect these to disappear after a few more sharpenings, except for normal wear and tear.


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## GazPal

Not too much of a problem then. It should be ready for anything once you've had a chance to raise a true wire edge.

My son brought home a set of four el cheapo chisels (Less than £5) for rough use and I was pleasantly surprised to find they take and hold a flawless edge, plus feel good in the hand. I sent him back to the shop for another set, as I intend to convert the second lot into fish-tails for him. Otherwise he'll try to nab my old ones for work. :lol:


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## Fromey

I dug out an old Marlpes blue handled firmer chisel on the weekend. It was seriously out of square, so I set it to rights and sharpened it to within a micron of its life. I then set to cutting a mortice and immediately cut into a large staple that was hidden in the wood. Doh! Serves me right for using reclaimed wood. But it was good sharpening practice.


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## GazPal

Fromey":1sytq8fm said:


> I dug out an old Marlpes blue handled firmer chisel on the weekend. It was seriously out of square, so I set it to rights and sharpened it to within a micron of its life. I then set to cutting a mortice and immediately cut into a large staple that was hidden in the wood. Doh! Serves me right for using reclaimed wood. But it was good sharpening practice.




I hate those heart sinking moments when you feel or hear a sharpened edge unwittingly strike a UHO (Unidentified Hidden Object). Especially if miles from a bench grinder, or after forgetting to return the saw file to your tool box before leaving for work and with another seven hours of a shift remaining.


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## jhwbigley

Jacob":1h6g9emx said:


> Perfectly good chisel, well worth £1 + postage! Thanks jh.



Glad to see you getting on with it, looks a craker. . . Probably should get roubd to sharpening the one I kept for myself now! 

JH


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## Jacob

jhwbigley":2gcf67ka said:


> Jacob":2gcf67ka said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perfectly good chisel, well worth £1 + postage! Thanks jh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to see you getting on with it, looks a craker. . . Probably should get roubd to sharpening the one I kept for myself now!
> 
> JH
Click to expand...

It's a nice chisel - good quality, properly shaped and average or better degree of finish. 
I thought you might be sending me some sort of horrible corkscrew as a challenge!


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## bugbear

Jacob":215dhqw7 said:


> It's a nice chisel - good quality, properly shaped and average or better degree of finish.
> I thought you might be sending me some sort of horrible corkscrew as a challenge!



If those marks really came out in 60 seconds, I think that chisel's a little soft.

Still, at least the back is flat (to "Stanford" tolerance  )

Better a soft flat chisel that a soft bananna.

BugBear


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## Jacob

bugbear":ajmxk4cz said:


> Jacob":ajmxk4cz said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a nice chisel - good quality, properly shaped and average or better degree of finish.
> I thought you might be sending me some sort of horrible corkscrew as a challenge!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If those marks really came out in 60 seconds, I think that chisel's a little soft.
Click to expand...

Not so. Hard enough steel. NB the marks were only taken out in the vicinity of the edge - the face is slightly hollow and the bevel is rounded and just touches at the edge and the heel. And yes the marks came out easily in 60 seconds. Actually quite a lot less but I didn't want to appear to exaggerate.
The thing is - freehand rounded bevel is very fast and energetic. You can do 20 energetic strokes on the bevel in 10 seconds, then spend 20 seconds working the flat face (alternating face and bevel to take off the wire edge), and you are nearly there, with 30 seconds to spare!


> Still, at least the back is flat....


Wasn't that flat - visibly concave along the length. But the _functional_ flatness is in the end 10mm or so which becomes co-planar with the other end near the handle.


> Better a soft flat chisel that a soft bananna.
> 
> BugBear


This was a hardish banana.

PS I realise that a lot of people _want_ to believe that sharpening is difficult and they'll never be convinced otherwise. :roll:


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## bugbear

Jacob":3rcimjpv said:


> The thing is - freehand rounded bevel is very fast and energetic. You can do 20 energetic strokes on the bevel in 10 seconds, then spend 10 seconds working the flat face (alternating face and bevel to take off the wire edge), and you are nearly there, with 30 seconds to spare!



Nobody uses a jig for flat side (obviously?), so bevels (convex or otherwise) and the whole jig vs freehand spat are irrelevant to this point.

The claim remains that a Norton fine stone (with whose properties I am familiar, it's an abrasive I use for various purposes) removed the grinding marks from the "flat face" in sub 30 seconds.

I'd call that soft steel, at least softer than I'd prefer. Makes for easy flattening though, which I suppose is a benefit. The egyptians cuts dovetail joints with copper chisels, so anything's possible.

I once had a slightly convex I Sorby blade that was so hard I gave up trying to flatten it with the abrasives I had.

I gave it (posted it) to a professional plane maker friend who flattened it in 10 minuites using suitable waterstones. He said it was an excellent piece of steel.

BugBear


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## Jacob

bugbear":29lzna4z said:


> Jacob":29lzna4z said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is - freehand rounded bevel is very fast and energetic. You can do 20 energetic strokes on the bevel in 10 seconds, then spend 10 seconds working the flat face (alternating face and bevel to take off the wire edge), and you are nearly there, with 30 seconds to spare!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody uses a jig for flat side (obviously?), so bevels (convex or otherwise) and the whole jig vs freehand spat are irrelevant to this point.
Click to expand...

You've missed the point again! Not using a jig means you can alternate instantly between bevel and face as often as you like, and as necessary, rather than having to take off the jig and make it into two separate processes.


> The claim remains that a Norton fine stone (with whose properties I am familiar, it's an abrasive I use for various purposes) removed the grinding marks from the "flat face" in sub 30 seconds.....


So you are calling me a liar? Fine, that's what I expected from you! I 'd be disappointed otherwise. :lol: :lol: 
NB if you read more carefully you will see that marks were removed only from the vicinity of the edge. The face is concave.

PS I'd also point out that it's never so easy to sharpen a chisel as when it's brand new and untouched. It gets a bit (not a lot) harder subsequently.


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## GazPal

I don't have any doubts regarding a fine India stone's ability to refresh/create a new chisel edge and do primary flattening in very short time. Especially if considering the minimal amount of work found necessary in Jacob's example chisel.

Matching stone to steel is best done in reverse order and rather than begin with the coarsest stone - I normally begin by using a medium stone - the best course is normally to start the process with a comparatively fine stone and switch to a coarser grit if necessary and work forward from that point. It's a wasted effort working with coarser than necessary grits. India oil stones - unlike water stones and natural stones - don't tend to vary in hardness, so more attention needs to be paid regarding grit size used.


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## bugbear

Jacob":2eisy6h9 said:


> So you are calling me a liar? Fine, that's what I expected from you! I 'd be disappointed otherwise. :lol: :lol:
> ot) harder subsequently.



You've edited away the bit where I explain WHY your claim is true!!

If you want to call yourself a liar, be my guest, but I didn't do it.

Once a chisel has a flat back, you only need to use your finest abrasive to remove the burr, which is done at the end of the honing process - No other work is need on that side. You don't sharpen by working the flat face, you sharpen by working the bevel.

Since burr removal is done at the end, it doesn't matter if you're a jigger or hand sharpener, since you could take the blade out of the jig, since you won't need it again.

Everybody's happy.

BugBear


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## Jacob

bugbear":ea3wz7ek said:


> ................ You don't sharpen by working the flat face, you sharpen by working the bevel.


I work the bevel until a wire edge appears right across*, then remove it by doing face - bevel - face etc. alternately, usually shorter passes each time, until it's all gone. If you go straight to face the wire edge gets pushed back onto the bevel side so it's handy to work it from both sides.

*_right across_ is particularly important for plane blades as they usually wear most in the middle and the burr comes up there last. If you stop too soon you can have a plane blade only partially sharpened.


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## Corneel

This is a very interesting thing about sharpening, we don't read much about. What happens to the wireedge? I have the feeling this bending back and forth is mostly an oilstone thing, because oilstones aren't super fine. Using waterstones you tend to go to finer stones, and I have the feeling that I really remove all the wireedge when I LIGHTLY polish the faceside on an 8000 stone. Then I rub some more with the faceside on the 8000 stone to remove all wear bevels and wearscratches that migh be lingering back in this area. Finally I indeed give the bevelside another lick and at last the faceside.

But I must say, I really don't know if this is correct thinking. It's just how I remove the wireedge. I can't feel that back and forth bending at all with my fingers.


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## Jacob

Corneel":1lqiprso said:


> ......., because oilstones aren't super fine.


The super fine ones are super fine; black Arkansas etc. That beige one of mine (above) is synthetic but pretty fine for all normal purposes.


> Using waterstones you tend to go to finer stones, and I have the feeling that I really remove all the wireedge when I LIGHTLY polish the faceside on an 8000 stone. Then I rub some more with the faceside on the 8000 stone to remove all wear bevels and wearscratches that migh be lingering back in this area. Finally I indeed give the bevelside another lick and at last the faceside.
> 
> But I must say, I really don't know if this is correct thinking. It's just how I remove the wireedge. I can't feel that back and forth bending at all with my fingers.


Sounds much the same with oil stones. I've never at all felt that "back and forth bending ... with my fingers" either. :lol:


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## Corneel

Ok, maybe you're right. It's really hard to see or feel what happens at that level. It's just when an edge disappoints after sharpening, you start to scratch your head.


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## Jacob

Corneel":3w1hskj1 said:


> Ok, maybe you're right. It's really hard to see or feel what happens at that level. It's just when an edge disappoints after sharpening, you start to scratch your head.


Well actually they often seem to hang around like tiny bits of wire stuck to the stone. Some more than others - it depends on the steel. Some (laminated?) edges seem to develop a big wire edge like thin tinfoil. Stanley 5001s do this.


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## Racers

I would have thought the softer steel the more a wire edge would hang on, harder steel it will fracture more easily. 
I have had a problem getting rid of the wire edge on a cap iron.

Pete


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## Modernist

Hey Ho, another day and the flat backers hone on.


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## GazPal

I know newcomers are sometimes misled into believing they have a flawed edge on their chisel/plane blades as they comment on fine edges crumbling or rolling over, but this in fact is often the presence of the wire edge which hasn't yet separated from the main blade/iron. Indeed, this wire edge sometimes disintegrates during the honing process - depending on how one progressed through the grits - while other times it will curl away and separate as a singular micron thin sliver of steel and be left on the stone surface. I've had apprentices complain of their inability to raise such a burr, until shown that a few extra swipes on the finest of their stones will raise and separate this sometimes elusive piece of steel to leave a surgically fine edge behind. A quick strop helps refine/refresh and align the edge ready for use.


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## Jacob

Modernist":pvzsgk8o said:


> Hey Ho, another day and the flat backers hone on.


 :lol: Some way to go yet!


> I would have thought the softer steel the more a wire edge would hang on, harder steel it will fracture more easily.
> I have had a problem getting rid of the wire edge on a cap iron.


I don't know quite how it works but the wire edge on hard steel 5001s seems quite persistent - springy and tough. I'll try and take a photo.


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## GazPal

Racers":2ikltuow said:


> I would have thought the softer steel the more a wire edge would hang on, harder steel it will fracture more easily.
> *I have had a problem getting rid of the wire edge on a cap iron.*
> 
> Pete



Stropping normally removes the wire edge, but I tend to find burr more tenacious if jumping grits instead of steadily progressing through them to remove all scratch marks to create an edge.


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## bugbear

Modernist":3e2mkuq2 said:


> Hey Ho, another day and the flat backers hone on.



The person demonstrating flat back preparation is Jacob!

BugBear


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## bugbear

GazPal":hqgvv1d0 said:


> Racers":hqgvv1d0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have thought the softer steel the more a wire edge would hang on, harder steel it will fracture more easily.
> *I have had a problem getting rid of the wire edge on a cap iron.*
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stropping normally removes the wire edge, but I tend to find burr more tenacious if jumping grits instead of steadily progressing through them to remove all scratch marks to create an edge.
Click to expand...


Burr persistence seems to happen at the hardness extremes. As Pete said, if you work a cap iron, the wire edge prefers to flop from top to bottom rather than stay put and be abraded away. I also had difficulties when I put a knife edge on an old saw (to cut loft insulation rolls - worked a treat!).

Conversely, in the world of knives made from VERY exotic, hard and abrasion resistant steel, burrs can be monumentally persistent. In the case of a symmetric bevel on a knife, it's quite easy to end up such that the wire edge is actually nice and centrally aligned, so that the cutting is actually being done by the wire edge, not the true edge. With some of the exotic steels, such an edge can last a couple of weeks (in domestic kitchen use) before chipping of flopping over (which is amazing, but irksome).


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## Kalimna

Out of interest, what kind of exotic steel are you talking about wit regard to knives? CowryX, or more rareified?

Cheers,
Adam


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## Modernist

bugbear":3l5g1no5 said:


> Modernist":3l5g1no5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Ho, another day and the flat backers hone on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The person demonstrating flat back preparation is Jacob!
> 
> BugBear
Click to expand...


We tend to be joined at the bar, rather than the hip you know


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## GazPal

bugbear":2vn4aj6p said:


> GazPal":2vn4aj6p said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Racers":2vn4aj6p said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have thought the softer steel the more a wire edge would hang on, harder steel it will fracture more easily.
> *I have had a problem getting rid of the wire edge on a cap iron.*
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stropping normally removes the wire edge, but I tend to find burr more tenacious if jumping grits instead of steadily progressing through them to remove all scratch marks to create an edge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Burr persistence seems to happen at the hardness extremes. As Pete said, if you work a cap iron, the wire edge prefers to flop from top to bottom rather than stay put and be abraded away. I also had difficulties when I put a knife edge on an old saw (to cut loft insulation rolls - worked a treat!).
> 
> Conversely, in the world of knives made from VERY exotic, hard and abrasion resistant steel, burrs can be monumentally persistent. In the case of a symmetric bevel on a knife, it's quite easy to end up such that the wire edge is actually nice and centrally aligned, so that the cutting is actually being done by the wire edge, not the true edge. With some of the exotic steels, such an edge can last a couple of weeks (in domestic kitchen use) before chipping of flopping over (which is amazing, but irksome).
Click to expand...


I'd intentionally added the pointer that stropping typically removes any residual wire edge, because it's often impractical for one to continue with honing. Refining your progress through grits does tend to reduce such problems and regardless of steel grade or the alloy involved.

Old brick trowels also make great loft insulation cutters, but don't need to be razor sharp in order to work well. :wink: 

In terms of knife edges, the burr you mention is often the best cutting edge for butchery/carving meat and capable of being re-aligned and maintained using a polished steel/burnisher until performance drops off and the edge is re-honed. The world of knives tends more toward use of far finer whetting angles than the ones used by woodworkers - barring marking knives.


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## Mister S

GazPal":2pmzrmct said:


> ...... A quick strop helps refine/refresh and align the edge ready for use.



Reading the last few posts it seems to me that the outcome of so many threads that veer into sharpening territory seems to be a "_quick strop_", especially when the usual protagonists get involved 

I try, I really do. I promise myself that I won't keep reading sharpening threads, but I can't help it. I see a new post bump the thread up to the top of the list and I'm drawn in.

Maybe I need some sort of help :shock: 

Steve


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## GazPal

Mister S":1xnzh0u2 said:


> GazPal":1xnzh0u2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...... A quick strop helps refine/refresh and align the edge ready for use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reading the last few posts it seems to me that the outcome of so many threads that veer into sharpening territory seems to be a "_quick strop_", especially when the usual protagonists get involved
> 
> I try, I really do. I promise myself that I won't keep reading sharpening threads, but I can't help it. I see a new post bump the thread up to the top of the list and I'm drawn in.
> 
> Maybe I need some sort of help :shock:
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...


Enough said.


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## Mister S

Gary

Sorry if I caused offence, I only quoted you because of the reference to stropping. It was others I was actually thinking of who seem to ride their favourite hobby horse at the drop of a hat and get upset with others. 

It's just that there is a lot of good advice and information given out about sharpening, by pretty much all the posters, including your good self (and I have to say the hobby horse riders too), but it seems to get a bit lost in the arguments between some posters.

Steve


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## Fromey

I find the wire edge invariably ends up embedded in my finger somewhere. #-o I also find that if it is left on the stone it will often put a nasty scratch in my polished surfaces if I'm not careful.


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## GazPal

Mister S":2fabrsfz said:


> Gary
> 
> Sorry if I caused offence, I only quoted you because of the reference to stropping. It was others I was actually thinking of who seem to ride their favourite hobby horse at the drop of a hat and get upset with others.
> 
> It's just that there is a lot of good advice and information given out about sharpening, by pretty much all the posters, including your good self (and I have to say the hobby horse riders too), but it seems to get a bit lost in the arguments between some posters.
> 
> Steve



No offence taken Steve. I'd actually agreed with what you'd said and realised it was time to move onto another topic.  

------------

I sincerely wish the petty bickering between a select few posters could stop. Agreeing to disagree is far simpler than rising to the occasion and perpetually goading one another. Nobody can ever win and the only losers tend to be the participants in such situations.


----------



## GazPal

Fromey":379cyzlp said:


> I find the wire edge invariably ends up embedded in my finger somewhere. #-o I also find that if it is left on the stone it will often put a nasty scratch in my polished surfaces if I'm not careful.



I typically swipe traces of wire edge from the surface of stones by dabbing it away with some paper tissue.


----------

