# Let's be Honest -can you even make money from woodworking?



## sitefive (21 Jan 2016)

I quit my last job since it was not really that great for my health and was boring as f sitting at pc whole day , the pay was good but I started to hate it and decided to try my luck turning my hobby in to business.
I'm advertising to general public, and 90% of the stuff I make is bespoke. I do get enough orders and sometimes more than I can handle, probably because I don't price the stuff more expensive than you can buy general furniture in store.

On the last few projects I have counted the hours it takes to do them and the profits, and in the end I end up making only a bit bit more than the minimum wage :| but obviously the work is backbreaking and tiring and I sometimes spend 12-14hours per day working if I have to meet the deadlines, Granted I have been doing this as real work only for the past 3-4months and still have things to learn, but I have cut down the time it takes to do stuff by a lot with different techniques/new tools.
At first starting this I thought you can make decent money from this, but now I have realized this is just quite an tiring and expensive to start minimum wage job if you want to make every piece you do just perfect #-o


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## marcros (21 Jan 2016)

i don't think that you can make money attempting to compete with mass produced items. Most items in a general furniture store will fall into this.

People do make money from a huge range of woodworking things- from functional items made simply from softwood through to the finest of furniture, with joinery tasks, fitted furniture and kitchens also proving successful for some.


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## Graham Orm (21 Jan 2016)

Sorry to hear you've reached this point. Can't you balance the work out with something that pays better as well? Maybe general repairs. Did you do much research into how it would work?


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## worn thumbs (21 Jan 2016)

Without wanting to appear too cynical,how much time would you save if you relaxed your standards a bit?It can be a lot faster to settle for excellent rather than perfect.


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## JohnPW (21 Jan 2016)

> obviously the work is backbreaking and tiring



Are you using only hand tools (to make furniture)?

A professional works fast, just about anybody can make anything perfectly given enough time.


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## RobinBHM (21 Jan 2016)

There can be good money in site carpentry.

For those that want to be workshop based, I would say there is money to be made in fitted furniture. That includes, bedroom, study, lounge, kitchen. Even better is if you can work from a home workshop with no overheads.

Very difficult to compete in any kind of free standing furniture or craft.

Joinery is possible but a lot if machinery required and tons of legislation.

If you run a manufacturing business, especially if over 5 people, the amount of regulations becomes painful.


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## sitefive (21 Jan 2016)

worn thumbs":3oawd6rc said:


> Without wanting to appear too cynical,how much time would you save if you relaxed your standards a bit?It can be a lot faster to settle for excellent rather than perfect.



Probably half of the time or even more... I have done plenty of research against my competition and even with my inexperienced eye I can see that mostly everyone has standards I wouldn't be proud of when talking about finish quality and wouldn't want to put my name on them.
I barely use any handtools, I'm slowly building up/upgrading my tools and the time savings are paying off.


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## doctor Bob (21 Jan 2016)

Yes you can make money from woodworking, if you are making minimum wage you are doing it wrong.
Are you self taught, I find lots of self taught makers are great but amazingly slow, they have no idea how a commercial shop should run. 
I believe you can't beat working in a commercial workshop to start with to see how quickly furniture can be made, and made to fantastic standards.

By the way you are moaning yet again, please stop it.


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Jan 2016)

=D> :lol:


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## Adam9453 (21 Jan 2016)

+1 for dr bobs comment
It would be worth you at least visiting a proper commercial workshop for a day even if you can't afford to give up more time than that. 
It's also probably worth you buying books or watching videos regarding production methods and manufacturing.
YouTube and woodworking books are generally good at telling you how to make something wonderful, you need the expertise to make it as wonderful but quickly.
This particularly means working efficiently, setting up your workshop properly so it's laid out and equipped to maximise your efficiency. 
You need to work smarter not harder.
And if you are already doing all of the above then put your prices up.
What's the point of working for minimum wage? Particularly as it sounds like you're finding it a chore not fun


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## n0legs (21 Jan 2016)

Adam9453":12zb0zri said:


> +1 for dr bobs comment



:lol: :lol: 
Which one?

The woodwork advice or the stop moaning?

Stop moaning is bang on if you ask me. Gotta' love the honesty =D> :lol:


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## sitefive (21 Jan 2016)

Adam9453":3khsyxlh said:


> +1 for dr bobs comment
> It would be worth you at least visiting a proper commercial workshop for a day even if you can't afford to give up more time than that.
> It's also probably worth you buying books or watching videos regarding production methods and manufacturing.
> YouTube and woodworking books are generally good at telling you how to make something wonderful, you need the expertise to make it as wonderful but quickly.
> ...



well my ''workshop'' at the moment is 15m2 large + some extra storage space, not much space for anything else but only few small machines.

I guess the question is- can you make any £ without having a whole factory and tens of thousands worth of equipment?


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## doctor Bob (21 Jan 2016)

sitefive":xbqvotcm said:


> I guess the question is- can you make any £ without having a whole factory and tens of thousands worth of equipment?



Yes. 
The factory and tens of thousands worth of equipment comes from the profits and hard graft.


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## chippy1970 (22 Jan 2016)

If you've only been doing this for a living 3 to 4 months you cannot expect to earn a fortune. I've been doing this 20 plus years and I'm still learning everyday. My apprenticeship alone was 4 years. 

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## paulm (22 Jan 2016)

Don't forget to allow for tax and national insurance payments from the money you have been earning too. In an employed type job it's deducted at source by the employer, where you are working for yourself you or your accountant should be dealing with it.

Cheers, Paul


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## petermillard (22 Jan 2016)

chippy1970":2gwncflt said:


> If you've only been doing this for a living 3 to 4 months you cannot expect to earn a fortune. I've been doing this 20 plus years and I'm still learning everyday. My apprenticeship alone was 4 years.
> 
> Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


+1. Pricing jobs is also one of the hardest things when you’re starting out (doing the actual work is easy in comparison) and it’s all too easy to get busy by selling yourself cheaply. At the risk of stating the obvious, you can't do bespoke work for less than high street off-the-shelf prices and expect to make decent money - that's just bad business.

If you're working to a decent standard and you have plenty of work, but aren't making much money, then raise your prices - not rocket science, is it? Easier said than done, I know, but remember that you're not obliged to serve every sector of society, at every price-point. 

If it helps, I have a simple 'cost of doing business' spreadsheet designed to for a one-man-band startup to establish what's a viable day rate; happy to post a link if you're interested. 

Cheers, Pete


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## AJB Temple (22 Jan 2016)

Hmmm. You don't write like a businessman. Clearly you are doing something right as you have identified local competitors, assessed their work v yours and think yours is better, and you have managed to get business. The question for you is, can you find customers that will pay more for superior quality? That is a marketing question not a woodworking one. 

The woodworking on is a matter of achieving efficiency. Most people, in any job, art or profession, achieve a certain standard and then they have hit the glass ceiling: they never really get any better. This is because they repeat their mistakes and persist with their inefficiencies. They can't see these because they do not know the tips and tricks and methods and short cuts that will enable them to break through the glass ceiling. Most people need to a) recognise this weakness and then b) find someone who can show them. You tell us very little about yourself (apart from the tendency to moan quite a bit - this negativity, if it shows in real life, will put customers off), but reading between the lines I suspect you need to spend some time working for or with someone who actually knows what they are doing. Even if you have to offer your services to them for little or no money, the education may well be the best investment you ever make.


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## Jacob (22 Jan 2016)

Bespoke one-off's is not ideal for a beginner (or anybody for that matter). Pick a design and make a run of ten, then set about selling them. If you do a run you get much better at it, much faster per item, the tenth will be much better than the first. 
And always crank your prices up - have a look at the competition and charge the same or more.
Basic fact of selling; the only way to get more money for the same product is better marketing.

Not that I'm a successful business person I hasten to add - but I now know what I should have been doing - and it did work when I did it properly!

PS getting your prices up can lead to positive feedback - you find yourself able to do a better job (more time in hand), use better materials and buy better tools. If you are always too cheap you may never get properly started.


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## Adam9453 (22 Jan 2016)

Very sound advice in the above posts, I hope he heeds it


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## mind_the_goat (22 Jan 2016)

If you are pricing to match mass produced furniture and are genuinely on minimum wage after all expenses then I think you are doing extremely well. If you are doing bespoke for the same price as mass produced then I can see why you are getting work.
You should examine what you making and for how much. figure out time and 'profit' for each type of job, focus on the ones that earn more and quote higher prices for the ones that give you smaller return. If your order book is full you can afford to start raising your prices. Your product is NOT the same as the items you are basing your prices on. Also consider your clients wealth. What car do they drive? how big is their house? What other furniture do they have? Price accordingly. Don't be afraid of a quote being rejected, usually no point in doing a job for no money, you can always re-quote if you really wanted the work.
As suggested by others, If one thing you make is proving popular then it could be worth producing these upfront, probably be faster to do a batch, could be better use of your time and it's going to be helpful being able to sell something off the shelf rather than have to work for 2 weeks on a project before you get any money. If you lack space then you could store components as 'flat-packs' 

I'm in IT myself and have a lot of respect for your decision to get out and try something completely different.


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## focusonwood (22 Jan 2016)

I suspect it's a little like writing a book.

You might have a brilliant story, it's entertaining and gripping, your friends and family read it and are full of praise. But publishers and agents aren't interested as there's no market for swashbuckling pirate robots pillaging the galaxy.

A guy down the road has a similar story about swashbuckling pirate robots in bikini's pillaging the galaxy and the publishers and agents are all over it and love the bikini angle. He's now got a book signing in Aldi and has been paid a retainer up front and has splashed out on a nearly new Ford Fiesta.

You can make money writing stories if you find a market for your niche...I suspect you can also find a market for your wooden creations if the quality is good enough and you can find people who are interested in phallic based furniture (or what ever your niche is).

Disclaimer; the wood I chop up and smash together in my 'workshop' isn't of interest to anyone as I'm still learning it and not expecting to make a living from it. I'm just stating my opinion.


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## blackrodd (22 Jan 2016)

Stage 3 of you're market research should include keeping the day job and building a customer base part time,
This allows you to make Final details of best sellers, materials and marketing, and customer feed back ought to be guiding you.
Starting self employed means working long hours to get established, remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it!
Regards Rodders


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## sawdust1 (23 Jan 2016)

As i've been making a living from furniture making/woodwork for the last 26 years i so had to get involved.
If i had a mortgage to pay then, now way, i know 2 local furniture makers and a joinery who have wives with good jobs and they all say that without that income they cold not keep going.
It was easier when i started back in the early 90's as their was no Oak furniture land and the like and pine was all the rage, at the height i had a full time employee and a 6 month waiting list, thats all gone now.
Their is only so much furniture you can get in a house so my regulars have gone, so i then added joinery and carpentry and property maintenance/home improvement to my can do list, i also have a website sunnyfields poultry housing so yes things are ticking along. A lot of work away from the workshop which
i don't really like.
The constant money worries is the only negative as all bills for running our house and a family of 4 comes from working with my hands, and their is never enough of that !
So back to your question, if you can diversify when its needed then maybe, but its going to be hard work.


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## custard (23 Jan 2016)

Here's the hard numbers for bespoke furniture making. 

Assuming you're in a reasonably populous, reasonably affluent area then you'll likely earn £15,000-25,000 a year _after_ raw materials and variable costs, but _before_ any fixed overheads like renting a workshop, running a van, or paying back equipment loans. That's the reality for me and almost every other independent furniture maker that's willing to have an honest conversation. Furthermore, similar numbers seem to hold true in Canada, the USA, Germany, Italy, Denmark, and pretty much every western country where I've encountered furniture makers.

To earn more you have to move into fitted furniture, joinery packages, site work, woodwork teaching, yacht fit outs, etc. But all of these things have a tendency to crowd out the pure furniture making over time. 

So if you have a supportive partner in a "proper" job, or mix furniture making with more lucrative part time work as say an IT contractor, or a decent early retirement pension from the military or police, or a wedge of money in the bank; plus you have a fair sized workshop on a mortgage free property in an area where there are plenty of well-off potential customers; then bespoke furniture making is a viable possibility. And under those circumstances a very lovely occupation it is too.

If you're the sole breadwinner, have a young family, have a recent mortgage (especially in the South East), have a rented workshop and need to borrow money to buy machinery, then the reality is that it's unlikely to work out.


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## Jacob (23 Jan 2016)

I don't get the emphasis on "bespoke". If what you make is any good surely you should do a run of them. One-offs are grossly inefficient and expensive and you are at the mercy of a single client (probably with a head full of carp ideas!).
My first business was as a toymaker (many years ago - Carnaby St etc) and we did multiples of 100s and as a result got highly efficient with a consistently high quality. 
Then period joinery, not quite the same but a run of 5 or more windows/doors starts becoming worthwhile and more interesting.
If you are going to make a table for sale, make 5!

PS and for most people virtually nothing they buy is ever bespoke. Even in a posh restaurant you wouldn't expect the chef to cook up something special just for you - not least because he/she is supposed to be the expert and have a better idea of what makes a good meal. 

PPS being able to handle bespoke orders is perhaps something to contemplate after many years of acquiring skill and experience, but not before?

PPPs and other crafts don't do bespoke - a potter will turn out runs of identical objects year after year. Craft is about repetition.

There's a huge potential area of activity between bespoke and site work or teaching. You just need a bit of confidence in your ability and be prepared to take a few risks. Much better than waiting for a wealthy twerp to come through your door and tell you what to do!


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## custard (23 Jan 2016)

Jacob":9uklea3m said:


> I don't get the emphasis on "bespoke". If what you make is any good surely you should do a run of them.



Sure. I do some batch work, other makers I know do more, and virtually everyone batches their chairs when they do them.

But there's no single, silver bullet solution to making a decent wage from furniture. Batching requires more storage space and risks damage whilst in storage. If you store in component form then joints can move and not close up tightly or well. Plus, in my particular case, I often use highly figured and unique timbers. I can't rely on the availability of these going forward. I know I'll find _something_ pretty special in 2016, but I've no idea what it will be. I understand that's a negative in one respect, but looked at from a different angle it means I have zero competition. If a customer gets a taste for my heavily rippled English Walnut boards, or pippy Elm taken from the grounds of Hollyrood Palace, or beautifully figured Tiger Oak, or CITES banned and unobtainable Rio Rosewood, then they pay my prices or they do without.

Hey, it's not making me rich but it's a formula that, most days at least, puts a smile on my face!


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## Jacob (23 Jan 2016)

custard":w721vsm7 said:


> ....I do some batch work, other makers I know do more, ....


Almost all makers of almost everything do "batch" work - it's normal. 
If you haven't the space that means smaller or higher value items etc. 
I question the whole idea of "bespoke" - it makes sense for posh tailors and dress makers but not for woodworkers.
The only things I've ever had made "bespoke" are my teeth (NHS)!


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jan 2016)

There was an article in one of the wood working mags in the early 90s where someone had said they had to charge £20 an hour as a self employed furniture maker. This was immediately condemned as being absolute nonsense by several people. He came back with a breakdown of all his costs - insurances, machine maintenance, council tax, electricity, time spent sourcing materials and other things that couldn't be directly charged, you name it - and proved that he'd have been £100 per week better of working for someone else.


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## sawdust1 (23 Jan 2016)

Sorry jacob i will disagree with your bespoke comments as i would consider most of my furniture work to be bespoke.
Say for example a customer rings up " can you make an Oak dresser to fit between our TV and a window " so i call around and measure up they choose 3 draws, 3 doors with open shelves above colour and finish of their choice, as its made to order is that not bespoke.
All my kitchens are made to fit a customers space which would be different to a house in the next street, it would not fit anywhere else , is that not bespoke.
Say the Oak dresser costs £2,000, i would expect 50 % deposit and balance on delivery then onto the next order to keep the cash flowing. I would not have the spare money, space or the time to make say 5 more and then try and find customers to take them unless i had an outlet for them, that would tie up thousands of pounds with the risk of them being unsold.
phil.p surely the wage you pay yourself is separate from the running costs of your business. You should know these fixed cost day to day and a proportion of this is factored into the cost of an item.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jan 2016)

Certainly. He was working for himself because he wanted to, and if he charged more he would not have had a business. The penalty he paid for happiness and self satisfaction was knowing he'd have earned more working for someone else.


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## lurker (23 Jan 2016)

This is not woodwork, but I priced up doing what I do as a consultant, in a profession with very few overheads and no equipment beyond a PC and printer. Basically just selling my knowledge but no physical product.
To bank the same money and have the same paid holiday plus a few days a year sick pay, I would need to charge a minimum of £80 per hour. I think people do not realistically calculate the hours that are not chargeable.


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## AJB Temple (23 Jan 2016)

I could not agree more with lurker and others. I have worked most of my life as a partner in one of the recognised professions for a well known global firm or as a director of companies. Generally we were selling a time pyramid (lots of hours of junior staff, fewer but far more expensive for senior staff). If I told you my charge out rate many would be shocked, but the fact is that you cannot charge every hour and the accumulation of serous expertise and experience is costly. Most people in my experience materially under estimate both business fixed and variable costs and business risks. They also see their time rather than selling their expertise - which can lead to dramatically different value assessments. I love working with my hands. It makes no sense at all for me to do it for a living though and this may be true of many. For some the trade off is worth it, but then the work is verging on vocational. I think it is pretty difficult to make serious money from woodworking. To make money (and especially capital value in a business that can be sold) businesses need to be scalable and create a brand. It is a different ball game. 

It is interesting that the OP has not responded much to his thread.


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## sitefive (24 Jan 2016)

wow thank you guys for all the ideas,
by ''bespoke'' I mean- same item but each in different dimensions/colours- to fit somewhere, So I guess I have that already covered by sticking to only few things.

At first when I started I made loooads of different items (small stuff) like shelves etc, sold some 30+ started to calculate the time it takes to make those small items and expenses and general effort and dropped that idea as it gave just terrible terrible return for the headaches involved dealing with lots of people for small value items.
Now I'm sticking only to larger items where I can charge more and need to get only few customers and that is working out much better.

I guess I'm really unlucky as I live up in North and I barely get any online orders from my area, pretty much everything needs to be shipped to around the London. I do OK locally tho for things always in demand such as tables, but again, the houses where they go to are just super posh and there aren't as many of them here as near London.

Now the plan is just to earn more funds from this and try to expand more online with a hope that one day I can grow this to larger scale and can outsource the work to another country and just ship the products over here, I can see few people already doing this.


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## Adam9453 (24 Jan 2016)

I do find it irritating when someone's goal in business is to achieve outsourcing.
Support your local area and country as they would have no doubt supported you.
If you want to flog imported furniture just open a bloody shop!


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## Terry - Somerset (24 Jan 2016)

I took up amateur woodwork/turning after taking early retirement. Having previously been an accountant I did idly wonder whether there might be a living to be made out of a hobby. After idly wondering I came to the conclusion that there were two ways:

- very high end, high quality, high prices. This route requires real design ability, craftsmanship and access to the right markets which may anyway take 5 - 15 years to develop as a business (if you have the skills)

- products with a wider market appeal - lower prices, higher volumes. To stand a chance of being competitive you need the right machinery, a production line approach to manufacture, sourcing materials by the cu. metre, etc. As a one man band trying to do everything - production, sales, administration, purchasing, cash collection, accounting etc - it is very hard work. If you employ people you have added issues with recruitment, training, insurance, sickness cover etc etc. Pricing will nearly always be compared to the mass market (think Ikea etc) where costs are low due to high volumes, multi £m investment in plant and/or cheap far east labour rates.

I came to the conclusion that I was lacking the skill and dedication for the former. The latter involves running a business in which the products, materials and processes are subordinate to money and efficiency - I spent 40 years doing this and it would not be a fun hobby.

You may, I hope, strike lucky and find a product niche in which you develop real expertise, too small or specialist for other companies to think worth competing. Starting with some knowledge of running a small business and woodworking obviously helps compared to a "blank sheet". But most products are easily copied and often improved by others - the is where a lot of our inspiration comes from.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Jan 2016)

"To bank the same money and have the same paid holiday plus a few days a year sick pay, I would need to charge a minimum of £80 per hour. I think people do not realistically calculate the hours that are not chargeable."
Iirc the guy I posted about thought in his case it could be up to three hours in eight - and this was an established business not speculation.


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2016)

sitefive":v13fr5xj said:


> .......
> I guess I'm really unlucky as I live up in North and I barely get any online orders from my area, pretty much everything needs to be shipped to around the London. I do OK locally tho for things always in demand such as tables, but again, the houses where they go to are just super posh and there aren't as many of them here as near London.


I'd call that lucky; all the advantages of living up north but selling down south. I'm surprised that more southerners don't up sticks and move - you could buy a large house plus workshop in the north east for the price of a tiny flat in London


> Now the plan is just to earn more funds from this and try to expand more online with a hope that one day I can grow this to larger scale and can outsource the work to another country and just ship the products over here, I can see few people already doing this.


Maybe your are more "designer" than "maker"? Develop the design side perhaps?


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2016)

Terry - Somerset":1joweuvi said:


> ....
> - very high end, high quality, high prices. This route requires real design ability, craftsmanship and access to the right markets .............
> products with a wider market appeal - lower prices, higher volumes. To stand a chance of being competitive you need the right machinery, a production line approach to manufacture, sourcing materi.....


They both require real design ability and craftsmanship, it's not either/or there's a continuous spectrum of stuff made which is in between.


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## mind_the_goat (24 Jan 2016)

sitefive":2af5fstm said:


> I guess I'm really unlucky as I live up in North and I barely get any online orders from my area, pretty much everything needs to be shipped to around the London. I do OK locally tho for things always in demand such as tables, but again, the houses where they go to are just super posh and there aren't as many of them here as near London.



As someone else said, if you lived further south it's very likely you couldn't cover your costs at all. If you are already building up an order book out of your area then again you seem to be doing very, very well, on-line marketing of higher value items can't be easy and you have even more competition selling on-line. 
Outsourcing some of the component build process is not a silly idea, it would be nice if you do this locally, which would allow you to keep the .made in UK' and possibly 'hand made' aspect of your products. However if one of your main selling points is very high quality then by outsourcing too much you may struggle to maintain this aspect, esp if you offshore if as getting issues fixed becomes very hard and time consuming.

If you are building standard items to different dimensions then you still have the ability to batch produce the components that don't change in size.
You don't seem have shared your website, I'm quite curious now but understand if you don't want to open that up to 'review' from this group.


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## custard (24 Jan 2016)

Terry - Somerset":mtmodcr7 said:


> I took up amateur woodwork/turning after taking early retirement. Having previously been an accountant I did idly wonder whether there might be a living to be made out of a hobby. After idly wondering I came to the conclusion that there were two ways:
> 
> - very high end, high quality, high prices. This route requires real design ability, craftsmanship and access to the right markets which may anyway take 5 - 15 years to develop as a business (if you have the skills)
> 
> ...



You make some good points Terry. I'd like to expand on a couple of them.

In reality I doubt there is much correlation between pure furniture making _skill_ and _income_. I know some makers that don't have my skill levels but probably earn a bit more than I do, and likewise I know makers that have higher skills than me but probably earn a bit less. Indeed there's one maker who is quite well known in the business as being exceptionally skilled (most makers would put him high amongst the top ten in the UK) but has faced a lifetime struggling to just stay afloat, enduring huge hardships along the way. For the most part however furniture makers seem squeezed into a relatively consistent earnings band no matter what their skills are.

You can divide furniture making into three broad skill levels, and achieving the first level isn't actually all that difficult. I'd guess at 1000 to 2000 hours of training would get you to the stage where you could make most rectilinear pieces to a decent standard. At this level you could for example make pretty much an entire household of Shaker style furniture. Toss in some decent machinery to speed things up, some passable design skills, and a slick sales & marketing approach, and you're off to the races. Many would ask, is more skill than that cost effective or necessary? The second skill level adds in the ability to make veneered, laminated, curved work, or jointed chairs, this would correspond to the roughly 10-12000 hours of a traditional apprenticeship and sets you up to make pretty much any piece of furniture you care to mention. The third level is genuine master work, having the skills to devise the fiendishly complex jigs and multi-stage processes required to make genuinely innovative pieces of furniture to museum or Guild Mark standards. There was a brief period from maybe 1985 to 2007 when skill level three seemed the way to go, because a small number of furniture pieces were smashing through previous price ceilings to achieve hitherto unimagined prices. Indeed contemporary furniture was starting to be judged as artworks or future important antiques. In the UK John Makepeace's "Millennium Chair" was pivotal in that movement when it sold to (I think) a Chicago museum and a second version was immediately made for a private collector for (I think again!) £60,000. A lot of makers suddenly decided, that's the way forward. Make extraordinary pieces, get an agent, and sell for breathtaking prices to a tiny elite of museums and ultra wealthy collectors. But with the 2007/8 crash that market pretty much collapsed. Furthermore, even in the US, which seems a bit further forward in terms of economic recovery, it's never really come back. I've no idea why this is the case, but when I talk to people who were genuine players at this level that's the message I consistently hear.

The second important issue you raise is design. And I think this is so critical it deserves a thread to itself. The fact is, if there's little correlation between furniture making skill and income, then there is even less correlation between furniture making skill and design skill! Yet design skill is the only _scaleable_ element in the mix, and ultimately is what consumers are really willing to pay for. The problem though for furniture makers (as you hinted at) is that there is very little protection in law for furniture design, and enforcing that limited protection is both expensive and protracted. In reality the most talented furniture designers quickly figure this out for themselves and decide to either sub contract making entirely and concentrate on design, or sell their design talents directly to the big manufacturers. I've always thought it telling that the highest accolade in UK furniture making is a bespoke Guild Mark, but that's awarded to the _designer_ and the actual _maker_ doesn't get a single mention anywhere on the documentation!

Net all this out and I come back to what I said earlier, the great majority of makers are earning an annual gross contribution (i.e. before fixed overheads) of £15,000 to £25,000. And it would be a very brave or foolish person who set themselves up, purely as a maker of bespoke domestic furniture, with the expectation of breaking out above this range. In other words, these modest financials either work for you or they don't, and if they don't then you need to find another plan because even though it's not impossible that you'll be the exception, it's highly unlikely.


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## AJB Temple (24 Jan 2016)

Sage post, Custard.


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## lurker (24 Jan 2016)

Off at a tangent but...... Some bloke has just sold a photograph of a potato for a million dollars. Like makepiece name is all!

Pete (Maddex) have you got any spud photos in your photo a day portfolio?


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## doctor Bob (24 Jan 2016)

what relevance is posting up what you earn per hour if you are in a different profession?

As someone within the profession, I know it's fairly easy to earn more then being a woodwork employee. If I didn't I wouldn't do it, the hassle is not worth it.


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## Bm101 (24 Jan 2016)

I cleaned the windows at the following newly opened hotel in Soho for a while. They are beautifully maintained and presented if that style is your thing and you have the money to pay for it. Among the guests I recognised were Elijah Wood, Dynamo, Bruce Forsyth. A downstairs bowling alley and cocktails at £20 a pop. https://www.firmdalehotels.com/hotels/l ... ard-hotel/

Off at a mad divergent? Possibly. But what struck me at the time was the costs they invested in the building and the fitting out. Serious serious money. Most places pretend to spend the money to get 'the look, these people spent it in spades to get the real deal. What also struck me was that it was so design orientated. The wallpaper, the artworks in the lobby. Not my thing tbh. I'm a cheap date. 

But it did strike me at the time that an astute person with the right business and practical skills who got in touch, managed to establish a good relationship and made a place for themself might well be on to a lucrative and ongoing market. This firm has various hotels around the world and I use it only as an example because I have personal experience of it. There's many more business models serving this market. Just _saying_. 

As a quick but _fairly_ related aside I used to do the windows at the Candy Brothers. The real estate devs. We'd abseil the outside, no worries. One day we got a call... they want you to do a couple of extra bits from inside. Ok. Walk into this beautifully crafted wooden room with no doors. Errrr.... Hellooo? Voice comes over an intercom. Can I help you? Ahhh. ok. Yep here to do the windows. Hold on please.
The whole wall revolves to let me into the office.... 
WTF. So i'm looking for a villain with a cat at this point.
The immaculate lady inside: you might want to take your boots off. (it's a white silk carpet) thats's a £1000 a metre carpet. 
Err. Yup ok.
Theres only 2 windows to clean but theres a vase in front of one.
Ermmm, excuse me. The vase there. Is it a little pricey?
And the woman looks at me straight faced and says _I'm not moving that its worth more than my house_. 

I'm standing there in my socks with half a bucket of dirty water and a bit of rag to mop up.
Ahhh You're alright. I'll pop back later when I've liased with my manager.
Never did go back.


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## doctor Bob (24 Jan 2016)

I'd be more interested in what the OP is making. Seems whatever he is making is out of poor quality softwood (his words). The market dropped out of pine in the 90's. There is no market for it as far as i'm aware.
No one pays top dollar for pine furniture. I can't think of a single thing I have ever made in pine or softwood.
I can charge maybe £6000+ for a top end table, I just couldn't make a table which looked great (enough to command a good price) in pine, it just isn't possible.


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## tomatwark (24 Jan 2016)

Being in business in the North and having 5 people working for me, there is a living to be made making furniture up here.

When I read the OP's first post I thought here we go again another person who has not professional training or experience setting up in business with their eyes shut.

There are a lot of things that folks make as a hobby for family and friends, some of which are pretty amazing, but this does not mean they transfer into a business model with all the overheads a business has, even one run from a small workshop behind your house.

To the OP I would listen to others advice and maybe see if you can get some part time work in commercial workshop near you and see how it needs to be done to make money.


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## Rhossydd (24 Jan 2016)

custard":2su96ce9 said:


> sell for breathtaking prices to a tiny elite of museums and ultra wealthy collectors. But with the 2007/8 crash that market pretty much collapsed. Furthermore, even in the US, which seems a bit further forward in terms of economic recovery, it's never really come back. I've no idea why this is the case


Makers just need to lever their way into the market. London's awash with cash rich investors wanting to spend their money.


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## lurker (24 Jan 2016)

doctor Bob":1g5frxeh said:


> I'd be more interested in what the OP is making. Seems whatever he is making is out of poor quality softwood (his words). The market dropped out of pine in the 90's. There is no market for it as far as i'm aware.
> No one pays top dollar for pine furniture. I can't think of a single thing I have ever made in pine or softwood.
> I can charge maybe £6000+ for a top end table, I just couldn't make a table which looked great (enough to command a good price) in pine, it just isn't possible.




You noticed too


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## Jacob (24 Jan 2016)

You can get good money for good furniture part or all softwoods. It's down to good design ( and marketing of course), good materials (which are available in spite of the general scepticism) and a very strong tradition. There's a lot of "shabby chic" tat around which doesn't give it a good name, but there are ways and means. There's a lot of oak tat around too!


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## AJB Temple (24 Jan 2016)

The pine market of days gone by is indeed gone, but has unfortunately been replaced with stuff from "oak furnitureland" where they round off and distress every corner and straight line like its been attacked by a five year old with a spokeshave. 

It would be interesting to see the OPs web site.


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## No skills (25 Jan 2016)

It would be interesting to see op's work and website. Let's not jump down his neck if we all don't like it tho.

As has been mentioned, speed of production comes from tooling/process/repetition. The latter being the most important, without it you can't find ways to improve the other 2.

Once you have built enough of one product you can pretty much do it on autopilot and be thinking through other jobs in the meanwhile. Allowing enough concentration not to hurt yourself of course


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## Racers (25 Jan 2016)

lurker":31733pn5 said:


> Off at a tangent but...... Some bloke has just sold a photograph of a potato for a million dollars. Like makepiece name is all!
> 
> Pete (Maddex) have you got any spud photos in your photo a day portfolio?



I have plums



26th August by Racers, on Flickr

Yours for £500.000, I'm not greedy.

:wink: 

Pete


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## Graham Orm (25 Jan 2016)

Racers":2jmvvjzh said:


> lurker":2jmvvjzh said:
> 
> 
> > Off at a tangent but...... Some bloke has just sold a photograph of a potato for a million dollars. Like makepiece name is all!
> ...



Is that per lb.or per Kg.?


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Jan 2016)

Per plum.


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## Steve Maskery (25 Jan 2016)

Good picture, Pete. I hope they were destined for that rather excellent plum, lime and ginger concoction of yours.


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## Racers (25 Jan 2016)

Yes Steve they where.

Pete


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## sawdust1 (25 Jan 2016)

I have enjoyed this thread, its why i joined this forum, looks like its run its course now we are onto plums !


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## lurker (26 Jan 2016)

sawdust1":eft2egnh said:


> I have enjoyed this thread, its why i joined this forum, looks like its run its course now we are onto plums !



I think is it wasn't that the OP has previous form, we might have remained serious for longer.

Anyway, do keep up: we are onto plum jam now!


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## Mark-numbers (26 Jan 2016)

sitefive":3fobliwf said:


> Adam9453":3fobliwf said:
> 
> 
> > +1 for dr bobs comment
> ...



I started in a garage and with old 500 quid wadkin panel saw 4 years ago! I now have a factory and tens of thousands worth of equipment - The first 2 years I spent 17 hours a day every single day in the garage, making whatever I needed to survive, and grow. I never once moaned, I struggled to pay the bills, on occasion needing to borrow money to cover them I barely saw my son or wife for the those 2 years, but now it is a completely different story, I get to take my son to school, pick him up and take him swimming.....I even meet my wife on occasion to go for breakfast or walk in the park mid morning. But I still put the hours in as soon as and when required.........


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## Doug B (27 Jan 2016)

Mark-numbers":d5kvwl77 said:


> I started in a garage and with old 500 quid wadkin panel saw 4 years ago! I now have a factory and tens of thousands worth of equipment - The first 2 years I spent 17 hours a day every single day in the garage, making whatever I needed to survive, and grow. I never once moaned, I struggled to pay the bills, on occasion needing to borrow money to cover them I barely saw my son or wife for the those 2 years, but now it is a completely different story, I get to take my son to school, pick him up and take him swimming.....I even meet my wife on occasion to go for breakfast or walk in the park mid morning. But I still put the hours in as soon as and when required.........



Is it really only four years Mark :shock: I remember that old Wadkin & the big 3phase converter, you've certainly achieved a lot in a short time  


Re the opening post I think as long as you are willing to put in the hours & your expectations for success aren't unrealistic you can succeed with most things, it's more about finding a market for your product & having an edge over the competition.


Finally to get back on topic, just for Jim a home made plum clafoutis, I can't take much credit for the plums as they grew themselves on the tree down the allotment, though I did pick them :lol:


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## Logger (27 Jan 2016)

I am self taught, working out of a garage having been doing joinery for a year. I am a picture framer as well so have worked with timber for years. I was doing some joinery for friends but decided to advertise my services doing joinery about this time last year. As with the post above, i am working 7 days a week and long hours but i am getting plenty of work and using up offcuts from jobs to make things to sell all the time whilst still doing some picture framing. 

Money can be tight at times as often i am having to still buy new router cutters, jigs etc, but you need to have the atttitude that this hard graft and time from your family will be worth it. I am enjoying what i do and it is already working well for me aftrr only a year. 

Getting back to topic, i am not a fan of plums, but used to go around to a friends house called Bernard who had loads of plum trees. 

Nick


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## lurker (27 Jan 2016)

Why did your friends call their house Bernard


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## Logger (27 Jan 2016)

I am not sure, but that is as good as name as any  

Then again, our house is genuinely called "Toad Hall" and i don't have any friends called badger.


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## lurker (27 Jan 2016)

I wanted to call our house porcherie but erindoors said no.


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## AJB Temple (27 Jan 2016)

You would not believe how many house names we discussed when we moved, as wifey rejected outright what our house had previously been called. It is worse than naming babies and that is bad enough. We almost called the house John.


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## blackrodd (27 Jan 2016)

I just love standing under our plum trees and getting stuck in on a sunny day.
But I absolutely dislike plums cooked as a desert, plum jam or plum pickle, chutney etc.
My mother made loads of plum jam, I hate the stuff!
When ;Er indoors wants to cook, she can make the most delicious food, cakes, pickles jam, etc.
but leave the plum out for me.
Rodders


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Jan 2016)

The name of our house is thirty seven.


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## n0legs (27 Jan 2016)

I have a pencil named Geoff.


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## RobinBHM (27 Jan 2016)

I used to have a forklift named sapphire


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## Mark A (28 Jan 2016)

I used to have a cat named Baby Craig / Craigy Babe.


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## Logger (28 Jan 2016)

Can we please get this thread back on topic! 

So, what is the best restaurant you have been to?


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## AJB Temple (28 Jan 2016)

Now that is a very good question. As breakfast is obviosuly the best meal of the day, my fave restaurant is Joe's cafe. Oddly, it has not yet achieved international recognition. He might need a business plan.


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## Zeddedhed (28 Jan 2016)

AJB, you need to know that one of West Kent's best Cafs is on the Transfesa estate at Paddock Wood. I haven't been for about three or four months (too much 'Lard around the middle' according to the Head Dietician) but the last visit was truly memorable (as visits to transport Cafe's go).


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Jan 2016)

I had a Gloucester Old Spot sow called Rover.


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## AJB Temple (28 Jan 2016)

Thanks Zedd. I shall seek it out and see if it should be Michelin starred. It is weird really that I get to eat to for work in fancy restaurants, but you still can't really beat a classic fry up, with ketchup, runny eggs and toast. I am tempted to have one for lunch! Despite my wifely half making similar comments about me.....


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## mind_the_goat (28 Jan 2016)

I once had a fish called Eric, even had a license for it.


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## AJB Temple (28 Jan 2016)

Did Eric taste nice? Probably dipped in a bit of batter and popped in the deep fryer?


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## timber (28 Jan 2016)

AJB Temple":kyuac4el said:


> Did Eric taste nice? Probably dipped in a bit of batter and popped in the deep fryer?


I had a wild boar once and he was called " Percy", and I made a living from wood working, I just happened to stop the trees from living
Timber


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## dickm (28 Jan 2016)

mind_the_goat":1kfmllwk said:


> I once had a fish called Eric, even had a license for it.


Strange - we had an experiment involving tankfuls of carp many years ago, and all the carp were called Eric. Must be standard practice.


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## NazNomad (28 Jan 2016)

One of my Shetland ewes is called Fatsy Kensit.


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## AES (28 Jan 2016)

This sketch is DEFINITELY getting silly! (getting????)
 
AES


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## lurker (29 Jan 2016)

NazNomad":a0p7eoje said:


> One of my Shetland ewes is called Fatsy Kensit.



Did it star in a pea advert when it was a young lamb ?


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## blackrodd (29 Jan 2016)

Not wanting to be the odd one out,-- My daughter named her chicken Dave, laid lovely eggs too!
Rodders


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## Phill joiner (29 Jan 2016)

Our cat's called Otter....... Tarquin Farquhar otter the 3rd is her full title.


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## AJB Temple (29 Jan 2016)

The real question is, what does your cat call you? We need to know.


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## Phill joiner (29 Jan 2016)

All she says is FEEED MEEEE NOOWWWWW.


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Jan 2016)

Reminds me of my favourite curry - tarka masala. Just like tikka masala only a little otter.


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## lurker (29 Jan 2016)

AJB Temple":35y08iry said:


> The real question is, what does your cat call you? We need to know.



The staff


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Jan 2016)

Cats look down on us, dogs look up on us. Only pigs regard us as equal.


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## Phill joiner (29 Jan 2016)

phil.p":1vmf60qi said:


> Cats look down on us, dogs look up on us. Only pigs regard us as equal.


The pigs in wales look down on us bikers big time.


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Jan 2016)

:lol: They certainly looked down on my 1900cc V twin Yamaha with straight through long shotgun Cobras.


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## Jacob (29 Jan 2016)

phil.p":29pi0igl said:


> :lol: They certainly looked down on my 1900cc V twin Yamaha with straight through long shotgun Cobras.


Woss that then? some sort of guitar/surf-board/woodwork-tool or something?


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## blackrodd (29 Jan 2016)

yamaha 1900 vee twin,--

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=yamah ... AlTKH9U%3D

Bloody gurt thing!
Rodders


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## Logger (29 Jan 2016)

phil.p":1nv7l0eo said:


> :lol: They certainly looked down on my 1900cc V twin Yamaha with straight through long shotgun Cobras.




I assume that woodworking can't be your source of income if you have one of those. There is no money in it  

Look at that, actually got it back on topic after 7 pages. 

Nick


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## Jacob (29 Jan 2016)

blackrodd":2cijwevw said:


> yamaha 1900 vee twin,--
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=yamah ... AlTKH9U%3D
> 
> ...


Right. I had a V90 - same sort of thing https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=yamah ... 4Q_AUIBigB


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## oddsocks (30 Jan 2016)

It's late at night and I've read my way through the many posts and probably 'thank-ud' more than ever before because this thread really says it as it is.


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## Graham Orm (30 Jan 2016)

phil.p":12vkxtzw said:


> Reminds me of my favourite curry - tarka masala. Just like tikka masala only a little otter.



I'm having that!    

My mates sister had a rabbit called Margaret.


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## Phill joiner (30 Jan 2016)

FEED ME NOW Aka..... Tarquin Farquhar otter the 3rd.


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