# Open a woodturning shop



## yrag1964 (5 Jan 2014)

Wood like to open a woodturning shop in northallerton north Yorkshire, would like to know how to get started on finding stock etc!!!found ideal premises but nothing to put in it!!!!


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## wizard (5 Jan 2014)

Have you worked out the cost of running a shop, rent rates water etc


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## nev (5 Jan 2014)

what is a woodturning shop?

A shop that sells wood turned items?
A shop that sells supplies for wood turners?
A shop that sells tools for wood turners?


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## yrag1964 (5 Jan 2014)

I have looked into all the costs, rent, utilities etc, (no business rates on the property), I would like to sell tools, accessories and wood for turning and carving, and of course have items on display that I have made, any help would be gratefully received


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## Spindle (5 Jan 2014)

Hi

Are you sure there is sufficient market in your area to support you? Once a turner has bought a lathe and associated tooling all that is required to continue the hobby are materials, (wood, finish, sundries and abrasive), - not much to make a living from. Do you think you would be able to compete on price with the larger suppliers and internet?

May not be what you want to hear but questions you should really be asking yourself.

Regards Mick


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## wizard (5 Jan 2014)

(no business rates on the property) so its not a shop then ?


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## yrag1964 (5 Jan 2014)

no not the replies I was after!!! looked into everything, so looks like will be looking for answers elsewhere as yours havnt been too helpful for me!!!! cheers anyway!!!


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## heatherw (5 Jan 2014)

Never tried to buy stuff for a woodturning shop, but we do have a furniture shop and have to stock it.

I would contact the manufacturers of the products you want to stock, and they'll probably send a rep. Most large importers will also supply you with materials, You will get discounts for large purchases, for instance, I´m pretty sure Timberbits will give special treatment to someone with a shop, and they already have quantity discounts. You could probably stock Axminster and Charnwood stuff too, if you`re far enough away from one of their shops. What I´m not so sure about is how to get hold of blanks, I know a lot of woodturners suppliers convert their own blanks, which is obviously cheaper.


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## bellringer (5 Jan 2014)

With turning blank the cheapest way to get hold of them is going to be buying cut boards 

when it come to pen kits from timber bit it so cheap to buy direct there is no point stocking them


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## heatherw (5 Jan 2014)

It's true that they would work out more expensive than Timberbits would sell them for, but if you only want one or two you would have to pay postage, so for any personal caller to the shop who doesn´t want large quantities it would be more economical to buy them there. Similarly with other items.


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## marcros (5 Jan 2014)

yrag1964":1804zzjc said:


> no not the replies I was after!!! looked into everything, so looks like will be looking for answers elsewhere as yours havnt been too helpful for me!!!! cheers anyway!!!



Keep asking around. Sooner or later you will find somebody to agree fully with your idea. That, of course will confirm that it is a good one. Avoid anybody that questions it in any way. 

It suggests that if you don't know where to buy from, at what price that the research is limited- probably limited to the back of a fag packet. No doubt somebody has validated it, presumably somebody with as much insight into the industry.


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## CHJ (5 Jan 2014)

yrag1964":1u7bgqy4 said:


> no not the replies I was after!!! looked into everything, so looks like will be looking for answers elsewhere as yours havnt been too helpful for me!!!! cheers anyway!!!



I assume you have done a formal business plan showing all expected expenditures, stock turnover forecasts, expected break even timescales (most likely years rather than months), projected profits for early years.
I suspect you have not or else you would not be asking on a woodwork forum for guidance on suppliers etc.

Have you approached your bank to see if they will consider giving you a business account, thought about forming a limited company, have a source of finance available to satisfy a trade suppliers financial director that you are not likely to default on payments etc.

What makes you think there is a niche market for the products in the area, how many hundreds of turners and similar hobby groups are there with a 20 mile radius.

I personally have to travel 40-60 miles to actually find a stockist that holds a broad range of consumables, if I do visit such a stockist as opposed to stocking up at a show it is usually in passing on some other errand. If the said stockist makes a profit of £10 out of each of my 2 or 3 visits a year I would be surprised.

These sort of distances, that despite all the monthly or weekly clubs with 50 or so regular members within such a catchment area, who I suspect once having established themselves are in a similar purchasing pattern to myself, indicate to me that there is not a viable living in such an enterprise locally.


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## Silverbirch (5 Jan 2014)

yrag1964":vbser29k said:


> no not the replies I was after!!! looked into everything, so looks like will be looking for answers elsewhere as yours havnt been too helpful for me!!!! cheers anyway!!!



Maybe invest in some public relations training alongside the stock acquisition?

Ian


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## bellringer (5 Jan 2014)

even if you dont order over $80aus to get the free shipping it only cost £3.50 so it works out ok


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jan 2014)

yrag1964 - you're not asking advice at all, are you? You're hoping in vain that someone somewhere will agree with what you've already thought. As Marcross said, ask enough people and you'll find one.
As a small business advisor once said to me - if your business plan is so brilliant, why hasn't someone else done it? I knocked that one on the head.


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## Richard Findley (5 Jan 2014)

The thing about opening any business, not just a woodturning related one, is that you need to go into it with your eyes open. If you are investing a large amount of money in stock (and you'll need to to fill a retail shop) you need to know that you are going to get a return on it.

So things to think about...

Brands that you and your customer know and trust. Go on, name some... That's the core of your stock.

You need to be able to match the service levels of your competition... Have you dealt with Axminster? That's your target.

Knowledge. Do you have the depth of knowledge to be able to answer your potential customer's questions about this wood or that finish, which tool to use and how to sharpen it?

Competition. You are 21 miles from John Boddy's and 40 odd from Snainton. These are going to be your competition for callers. 

Web presence. You will want to offer some sort of mail order service, so a website is essential, and not just one thrown together, it needs to be smart and work well, otherwise people will just go somewhere else. 

The answers may sound negative so far, but it's only because people know it isn't a walk in the park. If you are serious then you too will know this too, so it shouldn't be news, but if you are serious then you really ought to have most of this info already... My best tip when looking for suppliers is only use those that you would use yourself. A product you don't trust or believe in will never sell, and if it does you'll end up with a pile of grief. This I where your personal experience will pay dividends. If you've only been turning for a few months you are going to struggle.

Hope this helps

Richard


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## Lons (5 Jan 2014)

I'm not going to give a positive response either!

I ran a business for 3 different companies before starting my own and you can't just walk in open a business and have customers and profits rolling in. The hard work has to be done well before any venture opens whether that is by selling all the items you produce whilst still holding down a day job, until you have enough knowledge and regular customers to believe it's viable or having a genuine idea fully backed up by extensive research of the market, suppliers, competitors, overheads, financial implications, buying and selling prices and a full business plan, anticipated stock holding, actual costs of this and turnover rate of the stock. Added to this you will need extensive knowledge of what sells and what doesn't and supplier lead times The lack of even just part of this information is the most common reason for early business failures.

Your post implies that you lack much of this knowledge or you wouldn't be asking basic questions on here and your impolite response indicates that you probably have the wrong attitude to succeed in any case.

I don't want to be rude and I genuinly wish you luck but fear that you're going to need it.

Bob


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## MMUK (5 Jan 2014)

I've just started back out on my own a couple of months ago. It's not easy. Work is not abundant in the beginning and when you do have work it's long, hard hours in order to build up your reputation (although I'm lucky enough to have built a good reputation in the construction industry over the last 18 years). It could take years of long hours and no holidays before you show a profit. If you have premises of any kind, you need a fair wedge to cover expenses.

On a side note you say there are no business rates to pay. I gather you are intending to work from home or from farm premises? These are the only exceptions from business rates (apart from places of worship and training establishments for disabled persons).


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## finneyb (5 Jan 2014)

Bear with me please it is relevant ! - I read today for the first time about the Lizard Brain and the comments on this thread fit it to a 'T'.

' The lizard brain.

Or as Steven Pressfield describes it, the resistance. The resistance is the voice in the back of our head telling us to back off, be careful, go slow, compromise. The resistance is writer's block and putting jitters and every project that ever shipped late because people couldn't stay on the same page long enough to get something out the door.

The lizard is a physical part of your brain, the pre-historic lump near the brain stem that is responsible for fear and rage and reproductive drive. ' ref http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog ... brain.html

That's not to say I disagree with the comments - but maybe that's my lizard brain working - but if you don't try you will not succeed and a lot can be learned from an attempt.

Brian


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## Richard Findley (5 Jan 2014)

Just to clarify, he probably is right about the rates. Rates are based on the size of the building and there is rate relief on business premeses below a certain size. I haven't paid business rates for about 4 years. 

Richard


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## Lons (5 Jan 2014)

> but if you don't try you will not succeed and a lot can be learned from an attempt.



Brian

I'm entirely in agreement with that. You have to take a chance at stome stage to succeed but.... and it's a very big but.... anyone who does so without putting in the effort and research first is more than likely to fail and if resources are limited any lessons learned can be futile as it can be difficult to start again.

Full marks to this guy for wanting to try but his response suggests he's looking at it with rose tinted glasses rather than hard cold reality. Instead if saying "not what I want to hear" he should have asked what we mean and how did we arrive at those comments. Why is he asking about suppliers on a forum when anyone with an ounce of nouse can easily get that info off the web. He should by now have contacted every supplier of interest to ask if they would be interested in supplying him. As far as timber is concerned, he has a major competitor (and supplier) close by in John Boddy, if he hasn't been in to talk to them then why not? 
If you're looking to open a business you listen to everything - not just what you want to hear!

As I said, I wish him luck and as I pass near Northallerton I'll keep an eye open and pop in if it looks interesting.

Just as a matter of interest, I have a successful business but I certainly would not have survived without the early spadework and an in depth knowledge of my cost and profit requirements.

bob


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## wizard (5 Jan 2014)

I have had a few shops in the past. All been winners as i have had the money to back them, if you have to get a lone forget it. if you need advice forget it. if you do not want to work 7 days a week forget having a shop. If you cannot buy cheap and sell cheap forget it. if you are not big enough to take on shoplifters and trouble makers forget it. judging by your input so far i would forget it.
The only way to shop today is online.


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## heatherw (5 Jan 2014)

finneyb":25j68l7h said:


> Bear with me please it is relevant ! - I read today for the first time about the Lizard Brain and the comments on this thread fit it to a 'T'.
> 
> ' The lizard brain.
> 
> ...



I love this, thanks for posting it!


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## graduate_owner (5 Jan 2014)

As people have already said, the web is a serious competitor for any business. Ask yourself - do you usually shop for woodturning kit yourself on the web? I certainly do.
Would it be a start to just set up a web based business and take it from there? If it succeeds it could give you some extra financial back-up for when you go for the full monty, whilst if it fails then you may not lose so much. Just a thought.
Finally, if you do open a shop, I'm sure the likes of demonstrations and visits from the pros would bring in the crowds - they'll know you're there even if they don't buy.

K


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## Harlequin (5 Jan 2014)

Try and pm Russell - member here , he should be able to help with any questions
will be happy to visit such a setup in yorkshire :-D


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## Sheptonphil (6 Jan 2014)

MMUK":39nw7c1z said:


> .
> 
> On a side note you say there are no business rates to pay. I gather you are intending to work from home or from farm premises? These are the only exceptions from business rates (apart from places of worship and training establishments for disabled persons).



I completely agree with all the comments and advice given here, but the statement re business rates is not true. I have run a retail computer shop with a six repair bay workshop from retail premises in town for the last Fourteen years. For the last five of those the local district council has given small business rate relief on a sliding scale. On my premises where the rateable value is between four and six thousand pounds, the rate relief is 100%, so I have paid no rates for the last four and a half years and will not until at least October this year. :lol: 

Quite how any solely retail business survives on the high street now though is beyond me. Without the repair workshop the retail side simply couldn't support itself against the big sheds and online. And this is with me knowing the product and services, unlike the O.P. 

Phil


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## MMUK (6 Jan 2014)

Sheptonphil":2n6aooqz said:


> MMUK":2n6aooqz said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



I realise there are tax reliefs but they aren't applied across the board, they are at each Council's discretion and can be withdrawn at any time


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## doctor Bob (7 Jan 2014)

yrag1964":3bcgyz71 said:


> no not the replies I was after!!! looked into everything, so looks like will be looking for answers elsewhere as yours havnt been too helpful for me!!!! cheers anyway!!!



Perfectly civil answer. 
Everyone is an expert when starting a business, banks haven't a clue.
The best business start ups I know of in this industry are usually done on a fag packet.
Go for it and good luck.


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## Mark Hancock (7 Jan 2014)

MMUK":2n8hmpiy said:


> Sheptonphil":2n8hmpiy said:
> 
> 
> > MMUK":2n8hmpiy said:
> ...



Small Business Rate Relief at 50% applies to a property with a rateable value below £6000 (2012/13) and as far as I am aware is not at the Council's discretion. This relief has been temporarily doubled i.e. to 100% relief, by the Government since 1st Oct 2010.


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## boysie39 (8 Jan 2014)

yrag1964":3kzm2rad said:


> no not the replies I was after!!! looked into everything, so looks like will be looking for answers elsewhere as yours havnt been too helpful for me!!!! cheers anyway!!!




Methinks the bird has flown. :roll:


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## wizard (8 Jan 2014)

yrag1964":2qjqt82p said:


> no not the replies I was after!!! looked into everything, so looks like will be looking for answers elsewhere as yours havnt been too helpful for me!!!! cheers anyway!!!


With an attitude like that your shop will never get off the ground


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## Jacob (8 Jan 2014)

wizard":2vdw8aty said:


> .....
> The only way to shop today is online.


Yes definitely. Then if you found that people actually wanted to come and see stuff you could consider some sort of display space, which might end up looking like a shop, but with 99% of the business still on line.


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## Lightweeder (10 Jan 2014)

I buy everything but timber on line. It must be impractical for any number of reasons, surely?


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## yrag1964 (10 Jan 2014)

Thankyou so much for the replies, my step son is a business advisor and is putting together my business plan but cant do it unless we know where to source the goods and prices, I have a good job at the moment and have a considerable amount to invest into the shop with the plan of retiring in around 5yrs and to be more hands on in the shop it would be run by my wife to start with who has managed shops for the past 25yrs, she is quite knowledgeable about woodturning and wood with me rattling on about it all the time it is her who goes to craft fairs and sells my items with a very good success rate, the rent for the shop is 5k per annum which I think is quite reasonable, the business rates I have been told by the estate agents and by the person who runs a blind shop next door that there are no business rates to pay, but I know this could change at anytime.
Part of the shop would be a gallery for local artists who want to show their wares, this would be either on a commission basis or, that they pay a monthly fee to have an area in the shop, I have had interest from two artists and a photographer. the idea is still in the early planning stages and could go boobs up tomorrow if the premise goes!!!! The property is ideal it is on the next street back for the high street with easy access and plenty of parking!! A property the same size on the high street are between 15k and 25k 

once again I would like to thank you all for your replies with the negatives taken on board as much as the positive ones


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## Lons (10 Jan 2014)

Hi
That puts an entirely different slant on the subject and it seems you have put much more thought into the process than your original posts suggested and which is what I think solicited negative response.

By diversifying and allowing others to sell you are widening the shop appeal and increasing your opportunities to generate income but I'd still be very careful of investing too much at one go until you see what the local market requires. You need to talk to any local turners you might know and maybe contact any local clubs then listen and take note of everything they say negative and posiyive as that's what will make or break you.
I assume that you will be targeting summer tourists so will need to look at how you'll manage off season as well.

I still am confused about your lack of knowlege especially when you are an experienced turner and given that there is a load of information on the web for anyone who takes the trouble to search. If you aren't especially computer literate then you need a member of your family to help.

I repeat my good luck wishes and would certainly call in if passing when you get it going

cheers

Bob


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## wizard (10 Jan 2014)

if you could fill it with good second hand tools you could be on a winner


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## MMUK (10 Jan 2014)

wizard":2triqfi1 said:


> if you could fill it with good second hand tools you could be on a winner




+1

It would give me a good day out :mrgreen:


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## Rhossydd (11 Jan 2014)

Lons":31t2rek2 said:


> I still am confused about your lack of knowlege especially when you are an experienced turner


Sure ?
Yarg1964's first post from his profile post750177.html#p750177
So turning since May 2012. "experienced" ?


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## Sawyer (11 Jan 2014)

Quite a talented one though, by the looks of it.


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## CHJ (11 Jan 2014)

Sawyer":1g71gblz said:


> Quite a talented one though, by the looks of it.



Certainly showing an ability but still very much typical of most of us in the flush of excitement at achieving something new.

I'm not decrying the effort, we all have to start somewhere but I saw those two pieces as typical newbie pieces, the first one is full of tool marks so spoils the presentation and the second comes across to me as a case of 'I did it because I can' and would be presented by more experienced turners in a much simpler balance finial form.

To me seeing the so called enthusiasm *as presented at the start of the thread *I worry about the outcome of the enterprise, no so much for the enthusiastic entrepreneur but the folks down the line who could loose out to a failed/bankrupt start-up, and possibly forced into the same downward financial spiral themselves because they have been caught out by none payment of accounts.

Maybe it is just the old fogey in me, having once sat for 4 months on a jury seeing the misery caused by a 'Long Firm Fraud' and the lack of self control by all caught up in the exercise. I've come to hate with a passion concerns that don't pay their bills or put others at financial risk even if it is done with good intentions but without due responsibility to moral obligations.


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## Jacob (11 Jan 2014)

yrag1964":3br8trka said:


> ....... the rent for the shop is 5k per annum .....


Add to that the cost of being there (wages for somebody, or your own time, heat, light, travel), the cost of the stock etc etc and you will need a very large turnover to even start to make a profit.
But if you start as an online shop the rent is zero, you don't need to be in permanent attendance and you can manage with little stock - or even no stock at all if you can turn it around from the suppliers quickly enough. You can make a profit with very little turnover. 
Having a "shop" makes no sense at all except perhaps as a sideline if you are getting enough trade on-line. 
It's a bad idea - don't do it!


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## pebbles (11 Jan 2014)

Depends on what you're hoping to achieve... I think the diversity of what you're proposing is a terrific idea and there's no reason why it wouldn't work if you're looking to cover costs plus additional income to supplement pension, rather than making a huge profit. There's definitely something to be said for working in a pleasing environment, surrounded by ever changing beautiful objects, coming into daily contact with like-minded, interested people and not necessarily making huge amounts of money. Payment comes in different guises.

I have to admit though it's a case of "I would say that, wouldn't I?" ;-) because it's a similar idea to what I'm working towards doing here - workshop/studio and gallery space which will include work from other people in the same way you're suggesting. Though I'm living 'over the shop' in a one-bed flat. I've a small income from something else, am old enough to draw private pension if I need, but prefer not for now. (state pension date keeps moving further forward each year it seems!!!!) so am looking more for quality of day to day life rather than making a fortune. This area is quite touristy and therefore winter's can feel long and quiet, but this is just factored in by the local 'commercants' and hours/holidays etc are seasonally adjusted/taken to suit.

Summer hours might for instance be 9h until 19h, staying open through lunch, seven days a week for the highest two months. Then in the winter it could be 10h-12h then 14h-18h Tuesday to Saturday - closing at lunchtime. Dependable regularity is what counts more than total hours, people are creatures of habit.

I do hope you manage to make it come about!


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