# British Woodworking - Issue No.5



## OPJ (29 Mar 2008)

April-May issue dropped through my door on Thursday and I have to say it really is getting better with each new issue. I was particularly pleased to see a different name behind each article this time after Nick previously let his feelings now about having to input too much of his own work. He asked for help and it appears to forum has answered! :wink: Nice to see the Letters-section double its usual size too.

An interesting piece from David Savage in English Cherry - just when I was beginning to play a couple of pieces in this timber, I'm thinking I may have to prepare myself to use another species. Ignoring the American stuff, what would you guys use as a substitue?

I'm intrigued by Steve's Mitre-Shooting Board, as it appears you can a just the scrap piece. His solution to the mitre saw dust extraction problem also grabbed my attention - gonna have to try and find some small quantities of "roofing membrane" and give it a try myself. :wink: 

Hopefully the articles on dealing with Wood Movement and setting up a bandsaw could hopefully answer a few of the more regular questions on here. :wink:  

Have you given the Abranet sample a go? It's a bit pricey but, it seems to work incredibley well. No clogging, no over-heating and you just blow the dust away! :shock: 

The _Living Woods_ magazine could possibly be one to lookout for, later on.

So, what does the rest of the forum think?


----------



## llangatwgnedd (29 Mar 2008)

> So, what does the rest of the forum think?



I think Nick Gibbs is on to a winner, in fact I'm about to cancel the other magazine with huge arty farty pictures and not much meat that I have been subscribing for the last ten years.

Well done Chas, nice reading. :wink:


----------



## woodshavings (29 Mar 2008)

I think he is on the right track with BWW...I have already taken out a subscription and have not been disappointed.

I have been using the Abranet for a couple of months, mainly on Oak - I use it with the vac hose and extractor (Trend AF30) works a treat, certainly lasts a lot longer than conventional with minimum dust


----------



## Steve Maskery (29 Mar 2008)

OPJ":1xu4lg1u said:


> gonna have to try and find some small quantities of "roofing membrane" and give it a try myself. :wink:



The roofing membrane trick works superbly, and the only thing I've had to change is to use an industrial spray adhesive rather than normal DS tape, which didn't last very long. But this adhesive has been on a for a few weeks now and shows no sign of failure. And it really does make a fantastic difference.

I have a piece left over, so if anyone wants a bit just send me an A5 SAE and I'll send you a square. PM me for address. It'll cost you a modest donation to the Multiple Sclerosis Society the next time you pass one of their tin-rattlers.

I'll be back at the end of the week.

Don't forget to change your clocks tonight.

Cheers
Steve


----------



## Harbo (29 Mar 2008)

Great mag - I find I read more of the content than the others I get.

The Abranet works great on plaster too - with no dust!!

Rod


----------



## CHJ (29 Mar 2008)

On the Abranet front, Mark Hancock convinced me that it was worth a punt at Ally Pally, (splashed out for mixed box off TJTools) must say it is getting a fair use and only just getting to the point of needing to ditch the first set of sheets.

Not the be all and end all as far as my turnings concerned but a very useful addition to the wood taming arsenal.

Mind the fingers though if using on the lathe the dust can be warm enough exiting through the mesh to tell you to quit abusing the wood.

On the Nick front, I find his outlook/aspirations worthy of support, it must be difficult trying to temper 'Ideals' with a commercial requirement & make a living.


----------



## Anonymous (29 Mar 2008)

Bought the first issue but was not too impressed and haven't bought another one since (browsed through each at Smiths) - until today as I have to agree with Olly, it is getting better and with a more varied range of contributors, it will hopefully continue to do so.

Well done nick and the rest.


----------



## Fecn (30 Mar 2008)

I was rather pleased that it came with a sample of Mirka Abranet on the front this time... I've been wanting to give it a try but hadn't got around to ordering it yet.

One question though... According to the safety marks on the back of the Abranet sample, ear protection should be worn - Is it really that much louder than normal sandpaper?


----------



## Chris Knight (31 Mar 2008)

Yes, I think Nick is doing a good job with this. The articles were interesting and far enough of the beaten (to death) track to have a freshness about them which made a nice change.


----------



## Nick Gibbs (31 Mar 2008)

Thanks to everyone for their support. I can't tell you how much it lifts us to have such encouragement from The Forum. And it is really heartening to hear people say that they enjoy reading the mag, as that has been the main ambition from the start. Thanks.

I hope Living Woods magazine will also be appreciated. It certainly will be different, but the core idea is that it encourages the sensible management of forests and woodlands everywhere (particularly in Britain). I'm hoping it will help champion a future for our woodlands by promoting British timber, as well as woodland recreation, fuel and even food from the woods. Trees are arguably the world's most valuable renewable resource and I hope Living Woods will do a little bit to ensure their prosperity. 

Oh and it should be a good read, too, and it's out in mid June. Do email me if you'd like a FREE sample issue. (Plug over, Charley!). 

Thanks again to everyone who's helped or given us support. 

Cheers

Nick


----------



## lurker (3 Apr 2008)

Nick,

Another good issue - long may it continue.

Now you have got Chas (CJC) housetrained, can you get him to do an article on his grinder jig?


----------



## Nick Gibbs (3 Apr 2008)

I would think that's perfectly possible, Lurker. I'll give him a call. It works really well. He has a couple of other simple jigs for bench grinders that he's made himself. 

Any other requests? I've had a couple of great ones recently that we'll be following up on in the next issue. 

Cheers

Nick


----------



## John McM (3 Apr 2008)

> Any other requests? I've had a couple of great ones recently that we'll be following up on in the next issue.


 
Nick, any chance of including an article on using Sketchup for woodworking? Even better, include a free project plan/model done on Sketchup to teach how to produce your own model/working drawings. I assume you have access to a CAD type guru! 

Don't see any of the competition doing it! 

Cheers


----------



## wizer (3 Apr 2008)

We've seen sketchup in the magazines but always a half hearted attempt. A monthly do-able project would make good reading and be valuable to those of use who want to model our projects before splashing out on timber.


----------



## motownmartin (3 Apr 2008)

WiZeR":20hl84u3 said:


> We've seen sketchup in the magazines but always a half hearted attempt. A monthly do-able project would make good reading and be valuable to those of use who want to model our projects before splashing out on timber.



Smashing idea


----------



## lurker (3 Apr 2008)

Nick,

Would it be possible to post on your website ( I know you are planning to develop this) SU plans for that Home office cabinet of Steve's. 

IIRC Steve is a bit of a wiz with SU.


----------



## wizer (3 Apr 2008)

Another good idea, downloadable plans for most, if not all, of the project featured in the mag. I guess they wouldn't all have to be SU, just a PDF of scaled measurements/drawings.

Maybe you need a dedicated web person (cough)


----------



## lurker (3 Apr 2008)

Nick,

Unless I'm mistaken, I think you have a volunteer :lol:


----------



## OPJ (15 Apr 2008)

Just wanted to add a note - and a big thanks to Steve Maskery - to say that after trying out his dust cowl idea on my 12" Bosch mitre saw, I've noticed a significant improvement in the efficiency of the dust extraction!

Nice one Steve!  

I cut mine about 150/160mm long because my saw is 2" bigger than Steve's! :wink: But the 120mm measurement looks spot on. I also found it a lot easier to remove the black-thing and then glue attatch the membrane - spray adhesive worked superbly, thanks again Steve.







I've got enough left over for one more cowl, if anybody's interested? It's best if you cut and shape it yourself mind, but PM me.

The clamps aren't entirely necessary, I guess, but they kept my hands free and clean. You want the "smooth" side on the inside, so the dust doesn't stick. And, the "softer" side should be the reverse face, which also helps it to adhere with the glue, or so I think.  

Nice to see and hear of people taking out subscriptions during the Yandles show - keep it up!


----------



## SketchUp Guru (15 Apr 2008)

I've already told Nick privately but I think he's got a great thing going. I've only seen No.4 but I enjoyed it. I like that the same single, fairly complex project was used for a number of articles. It put the entire project together without glossing over the details and yet each article stands alone and has value by itself.

And Nick, the suggestions about covering SketchUp are good. Especially since there isn't really anything useful available currently.


----------



## JanneKi (16 Apr 2008)

Steve Maskery":1cdg4083 said:


> The roofing membrane trick works superbly, and the only thing I've had to change is to use an industrial spray adhesive rather than normal DS tape, which didn't last very long. But this adhesive has been on a for a few weeks now and shows no sign of failure. And it really does make a fantastic difference.



A picture would be worth a thousand words, can we get a glimpse of this solution? My chopsaw really does mess up places like nothing else and I'm looking for solutions, too. (But you can't get that magazine in Finland).


----------



## JanneKi (16 Apr 2008)

OPJ":7gsak1dn said:


> Have you given the Abranet sample a go? It's a bit pricey but, it seems to work incredibley well. No clogging, no over-heating and you just blow the dust away! :shock:


I've used the Abranet for a while now. I'm actually dumping all of my normal sanding paper, because it so much superior compared to anything else. It costs more, but
- it lasts much longer
- will not clog (and even if it would clog, you can use thinner/white spirits to soak of for example paint)
- dust extraction is a million times better than normal sand paper

But, if you counter the durability of Abranet vs. normal sandpaper, the cost is actually not that much of an issue. One Abranet outlasts at least 2-4 normal sandpapers.


----------



## Steve Maskery (16 Apr 2008)

HI Janne
If you email [email protected] you can ask him either to send you every issue or just one for you to try. You can pay by PayPal.

If you email me I'll send you the photo of my solution in action.

If you send me a Stamped Addressed Envelope I'll send you a piece of the material I used.

OPJ
Glad the cowl works as well for you as it does for me.

If anyone else wants a bit, I have a small amount left. SAE secures.

Cheers
Steve


----------



## OPJ (16 Apr 2008)

Janne, I've been reconsidering my thoughts on Abranet recently and pretty much agree with your opinions now. For the Hobbyist/part-timer, it could save you a small fortune! How often do you buy new sanding discs and throw out the old ones? I tend to hang on to my worn ones and use it on MDF or for lightly cutting back/denibbing... One pack of Abranet could last us over a year! :shock:  

Interesting to see this magazine has support from all over the world.


----------



## Losos (16 Apr 2008)

OPJ":g02wrf3f said:


> _Interesting to see this magazine has support from all over the world. _



Yes, it has even reached the parts of Europe *that other mags can not penetrate *:lol: :lol: 

I tried the sample Abranet and *immediately renewed my subscription*. My cheapo autostart vac recently stopped auto starting so it will the perfect thing to use with the *free Mirka sanding kit*.

As everyone has said BWW seems to be *going from strength to strength *and I think Nick Gibbs has done well to get the mag up to the standard it is now.

I still feel that the reaction by a few people to the start up issue was overdone and a *tad insensitive*, but thankfully that's *water under the bridge now. *

On the matter of the new mag. well one can hardly deny that the worlds forrests are a resource which needs protecting so let us hope that *'Living Woods' *can help a little in that. *I just hope that it will not divert Nick too much from his task* of keeping BWW at the forefront of the woodworking publishing world.


----------



## Smudger (17 Apr 2008)

Aaargh!
I've been out of the country for the past couple of weeks, so as soon as I got back I shot into the local Screwfix (no-one else seems to stock Abranet) and they've SOLD OUT!

I'll have to wait until new supplies come in. Fortunately that's tomorrow morning.


----------



## woodbloke (18 Apr 2008)

I've just rung Nick and ordered my subscription...can anyone give me a 'heads up' on the Mirka Abranet sanding gear...looks to be quite good as far as I can tell, where can you also get hold of replacement sheets especially in some of the finer grades? - Rob


----------



## Harbo (18 Apr 2008)

Rob I got mine from here:
http://www.RestExpress.co.uk
But others sell it too - just google "Mirka Abranet"

Costs about £10 for a box of 50 sheets.

Have not used it much on wood yet but works great rubbing down plaster!! :lol: 

Rod


----------



## woodbloke (18 Apr 2008)

Harbo wrote:


> Have not used it much on wood yet but works great rubbing down plaster!!


Rod - so does my Metabo ROS with 60g paper  - Rob


----------



## Benchwayze (18 Apr 2008)

Sawdust Producer":3ff4mcwl said:


> > So, what does the rest of the forum think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got my knuckles wrapped, because I wrote to complain about the amount of space wasted on 'arty-farty' workers, double-page pictures, and in some case, double-size egos. Excellent crafts-people, yes, but I bet they didn't get where they are, by smoking a pipe in the workshop and ignoring what clients want, so they can indulge their whimsy!

Cheers SP! 
John


----------



## Lataxe (19 Apr 2008)

I bought my first copy of this new magazine (Issue 5) yesterday and spent a couple of hours going through it. Whilst not wanting to be negative I have to say I give it about 3 out of 10.

Why so harsh? Basically because it sets a standard that's more or less identical to that of all other British WW magazines. 

* The tool tests are merely someone rambling out his opinions, despite the odd attempt to find "objective" criteria. Moreover, there are far too many such "tests," which reduces the amount of other stuff about.... British woodworking. Frankly, a lot of them also sound like puff pieces for the manufacturer. Where are the comparisons across a range of similar tools? Why is a bandsaw with loads of quality issues suddenly OK at the end of the article?

* The writing style is woefully amateurish, with poor syntax and sudden lurches from one thing to another. Everything is both hard to read and very sparse in hard information. There is too much "look at my chatty personality", which is OK for forums but not for good quality magazine articles. The worst aspect is the inability to explain things, which are blithely skimmed over. The author knows what he means therefore so should we, seems to be the attitude - all too common in British WW publications. 

* The furniture-making articles are mostly (and sadly) of the "simple pine stuff" standard. As to the thing to hold a ball of string! This so encourages low standards and feeble ambitions. And what of that half-finished article about a book cover!? Just as well, I suppose, as I'd rather darn a sock.

Well, how about some positive comments?

* It's refreshing to see articles covering innovative tool makers, timber qualities and maker-profiles (although I don't know what Garret Hack is doing amongst the British woodworkers, despite his excellent stuff - a contrast to that pine dross). What a pity then that these articles are so badly written, flitting from this thing to that via queer jerky sentences and puzzling asides.

* The bloke who examined the Tormek for use with lathe tools did a good job of giving and explaining his opinions, including the problems or drawbacks. 

* I enjoyed David Savage's cherry article, although it was too brief.

***

I wonder if the magazine will improve? I suspect it is always going to be a tool-oriented and somewhat uncritical vehicle for advertisers. I also suspect that it will continue to adopt that chatty, amateurish style. But I would love to be proved wrong.

Perhaps it needs some professional writers who are also woodworkers? 

Meanwhile, Fine Woodworking and an occassional Popular Woodworking (both American) still set the standard for me. This new magazine is as far from those high standards as all the rest of the British oeuvre, in my opinion (admittedly not a humble one).

Lataxe


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2008)

Hi Lataxe, 

I haven't seen the BW magazine yet. I have taken out a sub though to give it a fair trial. So I hold fire on that one.

When I said I'd had my knuckles rapped, I was referring to another magazine, to which I have subscribed since it was first published. Sad to say, it has moved too far away from my ideals. 

As for tool reviews, I have always thought that most woodwork magazines devote just too much space to the subject. One tool per issue is plenty I would have thought, but then I have just about every tool I need. All I shall be doing now is moving up-market on a few handtools that I *want!*.
Regards
John ccasion5:


----------



## Smudger (19 Apr 2008)

Well I liked it, it suits me as an inexperienced apprentice. I would recommend it to anybody in my position, whereas I find other magazines either talk down to me, assume I can afford Festool toilet roll holders, or describe projects that I can't imagine taking on. I enjoyed the whole thing.

Any chance of some more Abranet, Nick?


----------



## Mike.C (19 Apr 2008)

Lataxe wrote,


> * The writing style is woefully amateurish



Steve Maskery and Nick Gibbs amateurish?

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I am to stunned for words :roll: 

Is it still April 1st by any chance?

IMHO British Woodworking has got better with each issue and I certainly do not think there is anything amateurish about it. Well done Nick and excellent feature Steve =D> =D> =D>

From what I hear and soon to find out Steves tip about mitre saw dust extraction was worth the price of the mag =D> =D> =D> 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2008)

To be fair Mike, I think Lataxe was criticising the actual writng, the syntax. (That's an idea for raising revenue!) etc..

As long as I understand what the writer is trying to convey, doesn't insist on using terms like 'should of' and knows the difference between a split-infinitive and a dangling participle I don't mind.  

John


----------



## Smudger (19 Apr 2008)

I can't see much wrong with the writing. Only one thing I would have an issue with, and that not in a main article.


----------



## Lataxe (19 Apr 2008)

Dick Smith says: 

"I would recommend it [British WW magazine] to anybody in my position, whereas I find other magazines either talk down to me, assume I can afford Festool toilet roll holders, or describe projects that I can't imagine taking on".

Of course anyone may have a different opinion and need of a magazine. If you like it, that's fine with me. My opinion of it is just that too - an opinion.

But even so one or two of your phrases are telling. 

Personally I prefer an authoritative and reasoned article to a chatty set of anecdotes. If this is being talked down to well I don't mind - as long as the lesson is a good and useful one.

I notice that Mr Maskery has a large collection of Festools for building that rather plain-jane pine thang - rather ironic I thought, in light of your comment concerning to Festool toilet holder (eh?).  No cheap tacky bandsaws needing bits sawing off and packing out before they'll cut owt in that workshop!

Lastly I must ask you a question about this attitude of "...describe projects I can't imagine taking on". Are you content to fetter your efforts with this lack of confidence and unwillingness to take a risk or two? If so perhaps a run-of-the-mill magazine and them pine thangs are for you.

Lataxe the critical.


----------



## Smudger (19 Apr 2008)

No need to insult me as well! There's a big difference between critical and gratuitously offensive.

Can you show me where the English in the mag is below standard? This was one of your major complaints, and I don't see it. And whereas as a woodworker I may be 'run of the mill', when it comes to marking English I'm s**t-hot.

The intended audience seems to be the serious hobbyist. Take Steve's filing cabinet/book case. That would, at the moment, be stretching my abilities and technical skill levels, but in a while I hope to be able to do something like that. His skill has been expressed in the design, not in incorporating levels of difficulty (which I know he could if he wished) which would leave me too far behind to even fantasise. Whereas some projects I have seen elsewhere would require upping my skills to a level of professionalism that isn't likely to happen. So for me the magazine is pitched well. 

So I enjoy it. If you don't, then don't buy it, but criticise it for what it does, not what you would like it to be.


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2008)

I get your drift Lataxe.

With regard to magazines featuring projects that frighten the tyro, I can understand how they feel. I used to feel that way. I still do in some cases. That wouldn't stop me from trying my hand, if I needed something similar to whatever was featured. 

What is prohibitive though is the cost of materials for most of these projects and the lack of space in which to make them. For instance, a commission for a conference table would stretch my resources on all fronts! To use such a table in my home, would make my house seem smaller than it is now ! 

So, if pine thingies are too simple, and the Robert Ingham, David Savage styles are out of our pockets, what would magazine editors publish as projects? 
Any ideas for a middle-of-the-road projects?
Regards
John


----------



## Smudger (19 Apr 2008)

What I need to get on with - so would like to see some help on:

A decent garden table, rustic style. To be made in green oak.
A well-designed TV unit. One that looks like furniture.
Ideas for small items I can make in a weekend - home or garden.

Skills and techniques - accurate laying out, straight cutting, use of edge tools.

I agree with Benchwayze on another point - I don't have huge amounts of cash to spend on either materials or tools. So small projects keep me interested. I work in a 10x10 shed, so big isn't beautiful!

I really don't see why I shouldn't have a magazine which caters for my interests.


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2008)

Smudger, 

GMC's 'New Woodworking Plans and Projects' seems okay-ish. The guy who is writing about basic techniques though, seems to assume a bit too much; mainly that we all want and can afford the top end tools from the get-go. But in the copy I read there is a good range of projects, for most abilities

Hope this helps.
John


----------



## Try to Turn (19 Apr 2008)

Well I enjoyed reading this months BWW. I find it informative and it caters very well for my current level of experience.

Sounds to me that as Lataxe is such a good woodworker, that the projects featured are below him and his english is so brilliant he should be contributing to the magazine, with an article so advanced it makes all us mear mortals heads spin. Of course the syntax, language and grammar would be faultless in every way too. (by the way i'm sure mine is not but i don't particularly care!)

I think this phrase will cover my feelings

If you don't like it don't b****y buy it.


----------



## Chris Knight (19 Apr 2008)

It's interesting to see that Lataxe has high praise for FWW. I reckon that once great mag has become very ordinary and it no longer represents a benchmark to aspire to. I think that honour now rests with Pop Wood.


----------



## Lataxe (19 Apr 2008)

Dick,

Apologies if my vigorous discussion style is a touch offensive - it isn't meant to be; but a discussion wherein everyone agrees with each other and only says nice things isn't really a discussion, is it?

If you can want and expect a magazine to cater to your particular WW ambitions why can't I express the same wish, even if my ideal content is rather different from yours? You want to make simple things in a weekend. I prefer something a lot more challenging. 

I don't say that's a better ambition; but I do say that your kind of WW is already catered to by any number of magazines whereas I have to buy Fine Woodworking to get my fix. I would prefer to have a British equivalent, with a lot more of the British cabinet making tradition and writers like Robert Ingham, David Charlesworth and David Savage allowed full rein.

There is, alas, no such magazine. F&CM comes the closest but is also full of pretend tool tests (often of the £8,000 monster machine tools variety that would crush the floor of my shed as well as my bank balance) and far too much sculpti-furniture made of burr elm for people with £10,000 to spend on a "statement". Every now and then there is a bit of light from Mr Charlesworth or someone else of his calibre, with useful information to impart in a clear and concise manner.

Perhaps by now you are feeling my frustration at the lack of a British WW magazine for little moi.  Perhaps I am just an awkward little sod?

My shed, incidentally, is 10 foot X 17 foot, recently expanded from one that was identical in size to yours. It isn't the shed that dictates the furniture made in it so much as the woodworker's ambition and intent.

As to that writing style; well, I was admittedly harsh - the stuff can be read. Perhaps I'm allowing my frustration at the bland content to make me hyper-critical. Nevertheless, for a model of what I see as the ideal WW article style, read Fine Woodworking. The pictures tell a story and aren't just dressing. The words are frugal, to-the-point and unambiguous, without imposing the personality of the writer. The subject matter ranges from first principles to fantastique! Compare this to the "I did this then I did that" plodding of most British magazine articles.


----------



## NeilO (19 Apr 2008)

Havent read BWW, but if the projects in there are " cut it squarish, splosh on the glue and whack a few nails in.." then its about my level of skill.
the writing, if it contains words of more than one syllable, then it had better have lots of pictures :lol: :lol: 


best get on Nick, and secure a copy or two, methinks...


----------



## OPJ (19 Apr 2008)

Lataxe, if you're looking for something more challenging, you should try and get hold of issue 4, featuring Bill Newton's Tilt-Top Table.

I agree with what you said regarding the aspirations of the woodworker and, when you see the size of Bill's shed and all he's got crammed inside, you'll have a perfect example of this.

It's worth mentioning that this magazine hasn't been going for more than a few months and is rapidly with each new arrival. I, for one, thinks it's above both The Woodworker and Good Woodworking but, as it is directed towards the Hobbyist, perhaps it cannot be compared to F&C and their high-horses... :? 

You could always get in touch with Nick and give him some of your feedback, I'm sure he'd appreciate your thoughts all the same, as any magazine editor should do.


----------



## Slim (19 Apr 2008)

Lataxe,

It might be nice for you to at least introduce yourself, before you start belittling and insulting our members. (Yes, Steve Maskery and Nick Gibbs are members here as well.)


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2008)

Hi Lataxe,

You should read my fiction! You would really have something to get your teeth into. You know what they say about criticism.. If it doesn't cut, it isn't sharp enough! Like a blunt chisel! 

Don't worry, bad grammar annoys me too, but if the writing conveys the message, I'm happy enough! 

Cheers and happy woodworking
John


----------



## Smudger (19 Apr 2008)

Benchwayze":3k4byak7 said:


> Smudger,
> 
> GMC's 'New Woodworking Plans and Projects' seems okay-ish. The guy who is writing about basic techniques though, seems to assume a bit too much; mainly that we all want and can afford the top end tools from the get-go. But in the copy I read there is a good range of projects, for most abilities
> 
> ...



Sorry, John, I don't get the GMC bit.

(There's a 'doh' coming, I can feel it...)


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2008)

Guild of Master Craftsmen Smudger. 
They do the 'High-horse' magazine too. Would you believe I was a member? That was when you had to pay for the Certificate. I don't recall anyone ever asking me st submit work either.

That aside, the 'New Woodworking' mag does have a good sprinkling of projects. 

I also like Plansnow.com. 
Google it. They are not free plans, but not expensive either. They are interesting and imaginative if you want garden furniture specially.

Regards
John


----------



## Lataxe (19 Apr 2008)

Slim (Simon)

"Belittling and insulting our members...."

I'm sorry if you see it this way - I'm criticising a magazine's content and style, not the people involved. Perhaps you identify the product with the people? Perhaps the moderator does too? If so, I will desist .... and go elsewhere. (I reread the forum rules and get a sense that "be nice children" is the order of the day).

Just to be clear, I don't disrespect the editor or staff of British Woodworking, I merely express my disappointment that their magazine does not meet my needs and give my reasons why. I disrespect their product (in part) if you like because it reads to me like same-old same-old. I'm sure they themselves are all fine chaps and (let's face it) both better article writers and probably better woodworkers than me, one way or another. Still, perhaps they are interested in why I don't take out a subscription, despite the abranet. (Perhaps not).

In any case, I made my rather blunt point so I should desist anyway. It's back to Knots for me, I think, where one may be forthright without so many harrumphs going off. One does not wish to be a nettle in the nice flower garden. 

Lataxe, an insensitive brute.


----------



## Smudger (19 Apr 2008)

Why do some people see abrasiveness as a virtue?


----------



## woodbloke (19 Apr 2008)

My 2 Euros worth on this one. Previous comments have referred to the nature of the supposedly 'high-endy' machinery tests in F&C. This month's that just dropped onto the mat this morning looks at the Jet 260 planer (£850) biscuit jointers and the Domino, the Record TS315 table saw (£1750) and a couple of Veritas hand tools. Only the TS could be said to be pushing the boat out for the hobbyist, the rest are within the price range of the of the amateur. What needs to be understood I think is that the mags cater for two different sections of the market. F&C has *always *been pitched at the *professional *end of the spectrum and the machinery reviews reflect that position as well as the other general content of the mag. BW tho' is clearly pointed at the hobbyist woodworker and in my view the style and content reflect the market sector that Nick is aiming at, with all credit going to him for getting some stuff from heavyweights like Robert Ingham and David Savage.
That said, F&C is still streets ahead of anything else (and I'm the first to admit that it's not perfect) but BW comes in a *very* creditable second and is far, far better than the normal run of the mill, utter dross that can be found on the shelves in WHS.
I've had a number of very informative conversations with Nick with a view to making a contribution to the mag. The sort of style that he's looking for is one where an interesting tale or story can be told...something that will make the reader smile and want to read on and buy the next edition and I think that Steve M certainly falls into that bracket.
Regarding the folding table in the previous issue. I showed a the front cover to my daughter and I asked her what she thought of it. She said immediately that the legs were too small and the centre column was too thick. Have a look at the pics objectively and you'll see that she's bang on, there is certainly no grace or elegance to it and I think it just looks clumpy and very amateurish. IMO to have that table as the main project piece in the mag was an error of judgement on Nick's part and I mentioned it to him in an email...it was beautifully made but the design was appalling.
So is BW worth it...I think so and will be contacting Nick later to discuss projects - Rob


----------



## Lataxe (19 Apr 2008)

Dick,

Why cannot some people deal with the hargy bargy of real life?

But seriously, does everyone have to agree with you to be acceptable? It is possible to have even a heated discussion without your ego bursting or your feelings being hurt, you know Don't take everything so personally man. It's just a discussion, not a fist fight.

But I suspect you have the prevalent attitude here and I don't want to make a nuisance of myself. So it must be tarra. My loss, I know.

Lataxe


----------



## Steve Maskery (19 Apr 2008)

I've sat here all day wondering how I can best respond to this. Clearly any piece is not going to be to everyone's taste, and also everyone has a right to air an opinion. I think the problems I have with this are as follows:

1. Where, exactly, is the poor English? The question has been asked earlier in the thread, and yet no substantiation has been offered. I may be an average home woody, but I do consider myself to be an above-average writer. I do know the difference between "sheer" and "shear", "complimentary and "complementary", and "practise" and "practice". And yes, I do know that you don't start a sentence with "and", and I know what an Oxford comma is., and when to not split an infinitive _(sic)_. So the only slips in English I'm like to be caught out on are ones made on here at midnight when I'm not wearing my contact lenses and can't see what I'm typing.

2. I think few people, here or anywhere else, would enjoy hearing their work described as "dross". Just what is wrong with it? OK, I got the dovetails on the bottom drawer the wrong way round, but I know that, haven't tried to hide it and pointed it out so that others don't make the same mistake. In other respects the design fulfills its functional requirements (to store books and paperwork), the joinery is sound, the mitres are tight and the finish is even. It's not an exhibition piece, but it is a quiet vernacular piece of domestic furniture which does its job, doesn't offend and was affordable. How come that makes it "dross"? I'm always willing to learn and improve, both at making and writing, but it seems that constructive criticism of either is absent here, despite the invitation to clarify.

3 There is one very easy way for you to get the magazine you want. Write it. As far as I know, all magazines rely on external, freelance, contributors for the majority of their material. Those of us who write do so largely because we love what we do. Woody journalism is not a way to get rich quick, or even get rich slowly for that matter. Rates have not gone up in a decade. That's not to knock Nick, he treats me very fairly, but I was earning pretty much the same rate for my first article in GW Jan 1997. So we don't do it for the money. So if you want high-quality journalism, spend your time writing, drawing and photographing, then offer it to the mags, and if you can persuade them that you are good enough, it might get published. I'm serious, editors are always on the lookout for good material, perhaps because it is so rare, and I do know that Nick wants to produce the best. What other reason could he have for funding this venture himself and working 7 days a week until the early hours (I have many emails from him sent when I was pushing out the zeds)?

If you are going to be critical, please, at least, make that criticism constructive. Otherwise, those of us who sweat blood to write feel as if we are wasting our time. Fortunately I have enough positive feedback to realize that not everyone feels as disappointed as Mr Lataxe.

OK, I'm off now to slash my wrists.
Steve


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2008)

Lataxe, (You haven't given us your first name by the way.)

I believe a 'heated discussion' is, in fact, a debate or an argument. 

A discussion is just that, a means of talking things through without rancour, to arrive at a solution to some problem. At the moment I don't see any solution to this one. I see plenty of rancour though, when all we are discussing is the old adage that, 'One man's meat is another's poison.'

Regards
John


----------



## woodbloke (20 Apr 2008)

Steve - I make the assumption that your ref to 'dross' in my post (if it _is_ my post you're referring to) is in some way a criticism of you and your work....it is not. It's my personal viewpoint on many of the mags that I see on the shelves in WHS which in no way cater for the sort of stuff that interests me. Your piece in BW on the storage unit for your wife I found to be entertaining and informative, particularly the 'warts and all' approach as everyone makes the odd cock-up from time to time and I'm no exception as a quick trawl thru' the Blog will confirm. I look forward to the next issue to see how the project is finished - Rob


----------



## Slim (20 Apr 2008)

Rob,

I'm sure Steve was refering to Lataxe's unjustified comments in an earlier post.


----------



## BradNaylor (20 Apr 2008)

I've not seen a copy of BW yet but until recently suscribed to F&C.



woodbloke":3mbd1mmf said:


> F&C has *always *been pitched at the *professional *end of the spectrum and the machinery reviews reflect that position as well as the other general content of the mag.



My gripe with F&C was that it is not geared *enough* towards the professional. It is published by the Guild of Master Craftsmen so presumably it's primary target market is members of that organisation - ie professionals.

However, far too much of the content IMHO is pitched at the hobby woodworker. For instance, detailed plans of a project are of little interest to a professional cabinetmaker. Our daily work entails taking a sketch of a design or a photo from a magazine and working out how to make it. What we need from the 'projects' section of a magazine is good design ideas and tips towards innovative construction processes - not complete plans!

I also get a bit fed up with the choice of machines and tools which are reviewed. I understand the financial imperative and that commercial pressures influence this choice, but it is annoying to see yet another road test of an identical-looking combination machine every month, or a Chiwanese cloned planer-thicknesser. 

The truth is that most professional woodworkers have a workshop full of 40 year old+ lumps of cast iron! A Jet planer thicknesser is just not of any interest to a pro guy; he would prefer a nice old Whitehead or Wadkin for half the price and which is going to do a better job for ten times as long! So why no articles on old iron? I think I know the answer. :lol:

There are also many aspects of the cabinetmaker's business that could be covered by a magazine truly catering for members of the trade, such as marketing, costing, dealing with difficult clients,etc etc. Unfortunately, F&C isn't that magazine.

Incidentally, welcome to the forum, Lataxe. 

I don't find you rude or abrasive, just a blunt northerner. These southern nancy-boys can be a bit precious! :lol:


----------



## Anonymous (20 Apr 2008)

Dan Tovey":ws76rbsj said:


> I don't find you rude or abrasive, just a blunt northerner. These southern nancy-boys can be a bit precious! :lol:



<he>Northener I am, say what I bloody like and like what I bloody say. </he>


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Hi Dan, 

Working without detailed plans; just using photographs, a few sketches and basic dimensions? Doesn't sound very professional to me. 

I am sure you'll tell me it takes a professional to be able to work that way, someone with knowledge and imagination. 

I agree, but even though your original ideas might begin like that, I'd imagine you sit down and draw out the job and/or make mock-ups. In other words you 'work out how to make it' without all the mistakes that go along with the 'gypsy' rule of thumb approach. 

And yes, a Wadkin 'anything' (The best) will outlast an Axminster Special. 

On the box the other night I heard Stoke referred to as 'Up North'. 
Well Stoke is 'up North' to Brum I suppose, but it isn't what I would call 'the North!' How about thee lad; how North is North?

And don't worry... Midlanders can be frank and forthright. Another reason I never got very far up the tree and decided to work for myself. 

Regards and take care Dan

John   ccasion5:


----------



## woodbloke (20 Apr 2008)

Dan Tovey":c6vz7lwh said:


> I've not seen a copy of BW yet but until recently suscribed to F&C.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have every issue of F&C and many of the points you raise were indeed covered by F&C in much earlier editions so it may well be time to redo some of them. For instance 'Cast in the Past' was a look each month at a particular bit of greenery  and the first editor Paul Richardson did a really *excellent* series very early on the business approach to cabinetmaking which I found very revealing. Like you say there are too many reviews _sometimes_ (not always) of expensive kit which does get very monotonous each month. The new editor though is gradually gearing the magazine more towards the hobby end...hence there may well be less of these sorts of professional equipment tests - Rob


----------



## BradNaylor (20 Apr 2008)

Mornin' John,



Benchwayze":2w237xrv said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> Working without detailed plans; just using photographs, a few sketches and basic dimensions? Doesn't sound very professional to me.



I wasn't suggesting that one shouldn't work with plans, just that one wouldn't want to follow someone else's!



Benchwayze":2w237xrv said:


> I am sure you'll tell me it takes a professional to be able to work that way, someone with knowledge and imagination.
> 
> I agree, but even though your original ideas might begin like that, I'd imagine you sit down and draw out the job and/or make mock-ups. In ther words you 'work out how to make it' without all the mistakes that go along with the 'gypsy' rule of thumb approach.



Horses for courses. If it's a bog standard cabinet of a construction I've done a hundred times before I won't bother going beyond the sketch on a back of an envelope stage; if it's something more complex or made in a way I haven't tackled before, I'll draw it out to help my thinking process. 95% of jobs fall into the fomer camp, though.




Benchwayze":2w237xrv said:


> On the box the other night I heard Stoke referred to as 'Up North'.
> Well Stoke is 'up North' to Brum I suppose, but it isn't what I would call 'the North!' How about thee lad; how North is North?



The north starts at Macclesfield.



Benchwayze":2w237xrv said:


> And don't worry... Midlanders can be frank and forthright. Another reason I never got very far up the tree and decided to work for myself.



You're not a mate of Alan Wakefield's, are you? :lol: 

Cheers
Dan

ccasion5:


----------



## wizer (20 Apr 2008)

Dan Tovey":3dckpvmv said:


> The north starts at Macclesfield.



AFAIC The north starts at Holloway Road....


----------



## BradNaylor (20 Apr 2008)

WiZeR":7z6gvbzy said:


> Dan Tovey":7z6gvbzy said:
> 
> 
> > The north starts at Macclesfield.
> ...




You must mean here.

link

That'd be about right!


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Hi Dan, 
Alan Wakefield? Hmmm... Can't attach the name, but I hope I'm a mate of yours!

And Wakefield really is 'Oop North'.. I know.. I've been there. 

I needed all my skills to find the place mind.

   

ccasion5: 

Best.
John


----------



## wizer (20 Apr 2008)

Tho I'm certainly not an Arsenal fan :roll:


----------



## BradNaylor (20 Apr 2008)

Hi John, 

'Course you're my mate! ccasion5: 


Alan Wakefield is a brummy cabinetmaker who caused a bit of a stir on here a few months ago under the name of 'Bespoke'.

Rumour has it that he's now causing a similar stir on WWUK under the name 'Village silly person'. I can't verify this however, as I'm banned! 8) 

Despite my northern heritage, am an honorary brummy, having been born in Loveday Street hospital many years ago!

Cheers
Dan


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Nice to know that Dan. Thanks.

As for AW and the 'rumble' I heard summat about it, after the posts had been deleted, so I'll not enquire further! 

Sad to say your birthplace is no longer there Dan. I do remember the place. Also, as Birmingham is where you were born, the law says you are in fact a Brummie and an honorary Northerner mate! In fact you are more of a Brummie than me. I was born in Border Country in Kingstanding. (When it was a new suburb, I hasten to add!) About six miles from the City Centre! A 'Midland Red' Brum'. So there! Lol! 

I'm off to hang some of my pictures in an exhibition. I might make enough money to buy that Lie Nielsen 'Carriage Maker's 'Rabbet' plane! 
Catch you in a while.

Regards
John 
ccasion5:


----------



## woodshavings (20 Apr 2008)

Steve Maskery":aaoxnse2 said:


> OK, I'm off now to slash my wrists.
> Steve



Hi Steve - I hope you will use a Festool knife!

On a more serious point, for me Nick has got the balance about right, a good mix between the inspirational and the practical. I just hope he does not get distracted by the his new Living Woods magazine venture.

John


----------



## Lataxe (20 Apr 2008)

Mr Maskery,

Agin’ my better judgement I make another post in this thread. I suppose I owe you an explanation so feel I must. (You won’t like it). 

You mention:
3 There is one very easy way for you to get the magazine you want. Write it. 

You cannot wriggle out from criticism by huffing that the customer should do it himself. The point is that you charge me for a product (the magazine). If I find the product inadequate or want to describe how it fails to meet my need then this is just the usual seller-customer convention. You are confusing me with a friend who is merely considering your letter or blog describing what you have been up to. In fact, the relationship is a commercial one.

Then you ask:
1. Where, exactly, is the poor English? The question has been asked earlier in the thread, and yet no substantiation has been offered. 

I posted these two comments:

* The writing style is woefully amateurish, with poor syntax and sudden lurches from one thing to another. Everything is both hard to read and very sparse in hard information. There is too much "look at my chatty personality", which is OK for forums but not for good quality magazine articles. The worst aspect is the inability to explain things, which are blithely skimmed over. The author knows what he means therefore so should we, seems to be the attitude - all too common in British WW publications. 

“ .. for a model of what I see as the ideal WW article style, read Fine Woodworking. The pictures tell a story and aren't just dressing. The words are frugal, to-the-point and unambiguous, without imposing the personality of the writer. The subject matter ranges from first principles to fantastique! Compare this to the "I did this then I did that" plodding of most British magazine articles.

I am trying to say that the style of writing you use is an inappropriate variety of “stream of consciousness” style. 

* It’s narrative story, with loads of spurious detail (“I buy Swedish redwood unsorted and rough sawn…”; “I started by machining up the boards…” and similar take-as-read steps). You seem to have made little attempt to separate what is important in understanding the process of constructing the piece from what is just basic woodworking procedure. There is too much of your general woodworking habits and not enough information specific to the nature of the piece.

* Then there is unexplained jargon (“I modelled it in Sketch up and then copied the drawings onto a piece of MFC to make a full sized rod”). I can guess you mean something like MDF or hard board but what is MFC? I presume (don’t know) that by “rod” you mean a story stick or some form of pattern? In either case, where is the description or photo showing how you copy from sketch up via a drawing to whatever the rod is? We must either know about these strange terms and processes already or make wild guesses. What if we are not sketchup users? You describe no alternative approach.

* Then there is the constant mention of jigs, with no explanation of their use nor any discernible photos. Either stick to a basic jig-free method (much better for those who prefer making furniture to jigs) or describe/reference information sufficient to make and use the jig.

* The photos accompanying the text are largely spurious as they are pictures of you stood next to a tool rather than an illustrative explanation of the important configurations for various aspects of the process. The diagrams are basic and fail to show the construction details.

On a more positive note I do offer you a model to consider for writing how-to WW articles (almost any Fine Woodworking article or Taunton Press book for that matter; also, early F&CM articles from the first 5 years). 

My fundamental criticism is that you seem to be writing a story but the subject matter requires a different style, one appropriate to technical information. It needs to describe each significant process stage in bald terms, with decoding of any technical jargon. The illustrations must inform, not be mere portraits of the author or pictures of his shed. There should either be no need to ask a large list of questions (which cannot be answered as magazine pages are dumb) or a list of additional info panels or references to other technical bits that are quoted (such as the definition/picture of a rod or a jig).

Of course, your style of writing is the norm for every domestic WW magazine. But this is why I don’t buy any of them on a regular basis. Naturally, if your market research shows a preference for this style you will stick with it. But I somehow doubt that you actually do such research, as this narrative-ramble tradition of writing is everywhere and if anything is getting worse. You are all taking cues from each other and listening only to the odd sycophantic letter writer.

Hopefully you will take this carping as it’s meant – not something personal (after all, I know nothing of you the person) but as simply the reasons I don’t buy the magazine and hence your articles. You can either shrug it off as not relevant; or consider it and perhaps refine your style if you are convinced by any of the arguments. It ain’t a matter of right and wrong, that knows!

Finally, you complain:
2. I think few people, here or anywhere else, would enjoy hearing their work described as "dross"…… If you are going to be critical, please, at least, make that criticism constructive. Otherwise, those of us who sweat blood to write feel as if we are wasting our time. Fortunately I have enough positive feedback to realize that not everyone feels as disappointed as Mr Lataxe. 

I said: “The furniture-making articles are mostly (and sadly) of the "simple pine stuff" standard. As to the thing to hold a ball of string! This so encourages low standards and feeble ambitions. And what of that half-finished article about a book cover!? Just as well, I suppose, as I'd rather darn a sock”.

I didn’t describe your work as dross although there is plenty in domestic WW magazines that I would so-describe. You yourself are in danger of “going dross” if you think rather bland pine stuff (that can be bought for less than you paid for the wood from any number of bog-standard pine shops) is somehow inspirational enough to encourage woodworkers reading the article. Sure, you will get weekend woodworkers (not a pejorative term) and folk with lesser ambition praising your article. They want easy and bland perhaps; and good luck to them. But I suspect, looking at all them Festools in your shed, that your personal standards may be rather higher. Perhaps you are making that endemic assumption that amateur or hobby woodworkers are by definition not very good and incapable of better than bland-pine style. If so, I think you’re dead wrong.

That comment you made along the lines of: I bodged it here and there but it was OK for the wife if not a real customer, speaks volumes though.

Lataxe, a demanding little pest.


----------



## BradNaylor (20 Apr 2008)

Oh, and another thing about F&C...

...what's with that Kevin Ley, the bloke with the eye patch?

Month after month he's there pontificating and showing us in minute detail how he built his godawful-looking furniture!

He claims to be a pro maker, but on the internet he is almost invisible; no website, no directory links etc. It is actually very difficult to be in business and have that low a profile!

Am I being cynical in suspecting that he actually just plays at it while living on a fat RAF pension and earning pin money from writing books and articles?

Dan 
- in a very grumpy mood today!




Edit - not as grumpy as Lataxe though, who's post above just beat mine to the thread!

Hope you feel better with that load off your chest, mate!

:lol:


----------



## Smudger (20 Apr 2008)

Lataxe - you aren't a 'demanding little pest' you are a gobby stirrer.
Might be nice if you observed how this forum tends to work and followed suit rather than try to make it fit your self-opinionated mould.

I must say that I am not the least bit interested in reading your self-justification, and I think it says volumes about your ego that you think that anyone might.

You don't like it - OK, who cares? I don't...


----------



## Slim (20 Apr 2008)

Now you come to mention it Lataxe, I read 'Hello' magazine in the dentists waiting room the other day. I found it wasn't to my taste. Perhaps I should write a rude and arrogant letter to the editor?

Oh yeah, thats right. I don't like Hello magazine, so *I don't buy it!*.


----------



## Anonymous (20 Apr 2008)

WiZeR":32kodx4m said:


> Dan Tovey":32kodx4m said:
> 
> 
> > The north starts at Macclesfield.
> ...



Surely it starts at the other side of the Thames? I mean, that's why it's there isn't it? :lol:


----------



## Anonymous (20 Apr 2008)

Slim":15j2pnbl said:


> Now you come to mention it Lataxe, I read 'Hello' magazine in the dentists waiting room the other day. I found it wasn't to my taste. Perhaps I should write a rude and arrogant letter to the editor?
> 
> Oh yeah, thats right. I don't like Hello magazine, so *I don't buy it!*.



I bought a packet of Hobnobs yesterday. I had to throw them away today though. Can't stand the bloody things. :lol:


----------



## Gill (20 Apr 2008)

Having read Lataxe's comments about Steve Maskery's article, I'm tempted to buy the magazine and see if it really is that good. I like articles which allow the author's character to come through, leavening potentially flat narrative. I used to like the John Brown column in GWW many years ago for that very reason. What I don't want from a magazine is a read that is as inspirational as a set of flat pack instructions.

Oh, and I like Kevin Ley's stuff too. Criticising him for having a military pension smacks of jealousy to me. If he can make himself financially secure at a relatively youthful age and pursue his interests without needing to chase the dollar, I wish him well and congratulate him on his achievement. He's not the only contributor to magazines who has another income source, although most try to keep those details private.

Gill


----------



## Slim (20 Apr 2008)

Lataxe":2r13wouf said:


> Then there is unexplained jargon (“I modelled it in Sketch up and then copied the drawings onto a piece of MFC to make a full sized rod”). I can guess you mean something like MDF or hard board but what is MFC? I presume (don’t know) that by “rod” you mean a story stick or some form of pattern? In either case, where is the description or photo showing how you copy from sketch up via a drawing to whatever the rod is? We must either know about these strange terms and processes already or make wild guesses. What if we are not sketchup users? You describe no alternative approach.



I find it amazing, if you are as talented and experienced as you make out, that you don't know what a rod or MFC (Melamine Faced Chipboard) is. Why should Steve describe an alternative approach to Sketchup? That is what he uses. That is what British Woodworking uses. It can only be a good thing to encourage people to try out their design ideas in such an easy to use program. 



Lataxe":2r13wouf said:


> Then there is the constant mention of jigs, with no explanation of their use nor any discernible photos. Either stick to a basic jig-free method (much better for those who prefer making furniture to jigs) or describe/reference information sufficient to make and use the jig.



This is your opinion. I think you will find that the vast majority of woodworkers use jigs, whether home made or bought. As far as I can see, there a four photographs of the jigs Steve uses. Would you prefer fewer words and more pictures? Perhaps this would suit you...



Lataxe":2r13wouf said:


> My fundamental criticism is that you seem to be writing a story but the subject matter requires a different style, one appropriate to technical information. It needs to describe each significant process stage in bald terms, with decoding of any technical jargon. The illustrations must inform, not be mere portraits of the author or pictures of his shed. There should either be no need to ask a large list of questions (which cannot be answered as magazine pages are dumb) or a list of additional info panels or references to other technical bits that are quoted (such as the definition/picture of a rod or a jig).



Again, this is your opinion, not fact. Why should a magazine be a simple 'how to'? Why not get to know the author, or read about his thought processes? Each picture has a caption, which explains what is going on. 



Lataxe":2r13wouf said:


> Hopefully you will take this carping as it’s meant – not something personal (after all, I know nothing of you the person) but as simply the reasons I don’t buy the magazine and hence your articles. You can either shrug it off as not relevant; or consider it and perhaps refine your style if you are convinced by any of the arguments. It ain’t a matter of right and wrong, that knows!



Not personal? Do you think by saying it isn't personal, then that makes it so? Perhaps if you expressed your views in a respectful and less arrogant manner, we may have considered them. You have a lot to learn about being tactful.



Lataxe":2r13wouf said:


> I didn’t describe your work as dross although there is plenty in domestic WW magazines that I would so-describe.



Oh yes you did - "although I don't know what Garret Hack is doing amongst the British woodworkers, despite his excellent stuff - a contrast to that pine dross"



Lataxe":2r13wouf said:


> You yourself are in danger of “going dross” if you think rather bland pine stuff (that can be bought for less than you paid for the wood from any number of bog-standard pine shops) is somehow inspirational enough to encourage woodworkers reading the article. Sure, you will get weekend woodworkers (not a pejorative term) and folk with lesser ambition praising your article. They want easy and bland perhaps; and good luck to them. But I suspect, looking at all them Festools in your shed, that your personal standards may be rather higher. Perhaps you are making that endemic assumption that amateur or hobby woodworkers are by definition not very good and incapable of better than bland-pine style. If so, I think you’re dead wrong."



I think you will find that they are trying to cater for various skill levels. 

Maybe you should email Nick and ask him to publish a magazine just for you. :roll: 



Lataxe":2r13wouf said:


> , a demanding little pest.



I wouldn't put it that politely.


----------



## Lataxe (20 Apr 2008)

Dick & Simon,

Don't worry, my dears. I am off back to a real forum where there are no thought police, monitors of uncomfortable emotions and over-sensitive harrumphers. You can go back to discussing the price of tea with the vicar and how nice the flower garden looks this week.  I prefer to talk to grown ups about often contentious matters. Strangely, this often leads to a better understanding, changed minds and increased abilities. Still, no need for those if you are just making a birdhouse, I suppose.

However, I do hope that British Woodworking will get better. I would like to buy a quality Britsh WW magazine. You seem to have missed my point that I DON'T buy BWW because it has (in my opinion) low standards that could easily be better. It's for lads like you, I suppose.

Who knows, perhaps the editor and writers might at least take another look at their production values rather than merely sopping up the sycophancy from such as you lads? It's no bad thing to question yourself from time to time, rather than look for only praise and congratulate yourself on what a good job you done - especially if you are a publication wishing to both sell more copies and serve wider needs than those of birdhouse makers. I wouldn't expect them to agree with all of my "ideals" for a magazine, since I'm not the only potential reader - maybe not even typical. I merely offer them a different perspective from that of the breathless fanboy.

Tarra. 

Lataxe, a pariah.


----------



## Smudger (20 Apr 2008)

The ego has landed, and then taken off again...


----------



## Anonymous (20 Apr 2008)

Lataxe":1qa55l2a said:


> Dick & Simon,
> 
> Don't worry, my dears. I am off back to a real forum where there are no thought police, monitors of uncomfortable emotions and over-sensitive harrumphers.



So it's OK to give it but, when you can't take it sling a few childish insults and 'run fer them thar hills'. :roll:


----------



## paulm (20 Apr 2008)

Smudger":xgai3hv1 said:


> The ego has landed, and then taken off again...



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Seems remarkably like Bespoke and Village silly person (from the other place), surely there can't be more than one person like this in reality :shock: :roll: 

Cheers, Paul


----------



## NeilO (20 Apr 2008)

funnily enough , Paul ...
I was thinking exactly the same thing , the writing style, diising things he had no notion of, and such ....definatley a Bespoke clone.

edit: or should that be clown? :lol:


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Dan Tovey":1ftd2a8s said:


> Oh, and another thing about F&C...
> 
> ...what's with that Kevin Ley, the bloke with the eye patch?
> 
> ...



Dan... 

Ref 'The Pirate'.. I wondered something similar. He must have done a course with one of the Magical Wizards who offer six-week intensive wonder courses to novices. I wouldn't mind a refresher myself, but to learn from scratch in next to no time? Hmmmm!

ccasion5:    

Regards John


----------



## Slim (20 Apr 2008)

Nah, it couldn't be dear old Alan, Lataxe doesn't have a Brummy accent.


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Lataxe":26pubskx said:


> Mr Maskery,
> 
> I presume (don’t know) that by “rod” you mean a story stick or some form of pattern?
> Lataxe, a demanding little pest.



Letaxe, 

If you don't know what a rod is:

1) You would be out of your depth on the Fine Woodworking Forum. (They call it a story-board in the States.)

2) To judge from your manners, as a child you were spared another kind of rod too often. Petulance is best left in the nursery my friend. It's time to grow up if you wish to get along rather than just 'rub along', thus abrading everyone else. 

If as I suspect, you are a school teacher, then thank Heavens my kids have grown up, but God help my Grand-daughter. 

If you are doing this just to be awkward, :roll: then get a life. For sure, until you do, you won't last five minutes on any forum. 

John


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Slim":m34t68en said:


> Nah, it couldn't be dear old Alan, Lataxe doesn't have a Brummy accent.



Hey Slim!

Wots a brummie aksunt? 'Sidownanmekyerself-a-tum? :wink: 

BTW, how do you do that multi-quote thing in one post. When I try to quote, the whole post comes up and I have to delete the bits I don't want to comment on. And in the case of rubber-cho**er (sorry Axe) , that was a lot of quote! :lol: 

Regards 

Brummie John


----------



## DaveL (20 Apr 2008)

Benchwayze":4apabniv said:


> BTW, how do you do that multi-quote thing in one post.


It requires lots of cut and paste, using the preview to check that the tags are correct before posting.


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Cheers Dave... 

I'll practice! 
ccasion5: 

Regards
John


----------



## Slim (20 Apr 2008)

Benchwayze":3a3jyy60 said:


> BTW, how do you do that multi-quote thing in one post. When I try to quote, the whole post comes up and I have to delete the bits I don't want to comment on. And in the case of rubber-cho**er (sorry Axe) , that was a lot of quote! :lol:



Ha you're not joking! It is quite a lot of work and rather tedius to prepare a post like that. I couldn't be bothered normally, but Lataxe got right up my nose, so I thought it was worth it.  

I remember Dan Tovey (I think) say that the way to enjoy Bespoke's posts was to read them aloud with a brummy accent. I tried it with Lataxe's posts, but it didn't work. :roll: :wink:


----------



## Woodmagnet (20 Apr 2008)

So has Laxative gone now? 8)


----------



## motownmartin (20 Apr 2008)

kevin":r0thwls4 said:


> So has Laxative gone now? 8)


I think Slim & Benchwayze have stuck a cork in his hole :lol:


----------



## Woodmagnet (20 Apr 2008)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Slim":3ndk8hr2 said:


> Benchwayze":3ndk8hr2 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, how do you do that multi-quote thing in one post. When I try to quote, the whole post comes up and I have to delete the bits I don't want to comment on. And in the case of rubber-cho**er (sorry Axe) , that was a lot of quote! :lol:
> ...



He was beginning to irritate my sinuses too. Also, an overdose of 'Senna' has a sudden effect! 

Thanks for the heads up on the quote procedure. Altough I hope I shan't ever need to disseminate a post like that myself!

Cheers 
John


----------



## Nick Gibbs (20 Apr 2008)

Hi All

I'm not quite sure how to respond to all that. Perhaps with an 'and' placed neatly at the start of my next sentence! So that you know, I have been following the thread, with interest and just the occasional flutter of the heart. It provides excellent feedback.

Thanks.

Nick


----------



## Benchwayze (20 Apr 2008)

Nick Gibbs":21h7koec said:


> Hi All
> 
> I'm not quite sure how to respond to all that. Perhaps with an 'and' placed neatly at the start of my next sentence! So that you know, I have been following the thread, with interest and just the occasional flutter of the heart. It provides excellent feedback.
> 
> ...



=D> 
 

Now I am off to knock out some Zzzz's!
Regards, 
John


----------



## BradNaylor (21 Apr 2008)

Slim":307ht75y said:


> I remember Dan Tovey (I think) say that the way to enjoy Bespoke's posts was to read them aloud with a brummy accent. I tried it with Lataxe's posts, but it didn't work. :roll: :wink:




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 


No, with Laxative, you have to read them aloud in a Fred Dibnah accent!

He's not Bespoke/Village silly person, but I suspect they were seperated at birth!


----------



## mister henderson (21 Apr 2008)

I've read through the entire thread carefully, I know nothing of the personalities involved, nor have I read the magazine or any other WW magazines for many years.

My conclusions are that, based entirely on what has been written, that Lataxe has been unfairly treated by many of the posters to this thread. He has a point of view and he put it clearly and without insulting anyone. I think some of the responses, especially those parodying his screen-name, have been childish


----------



## Nick Gibbs (21 Apr 2008)

It may surprise some people, but I agree a little with Mr Henderson. I don't mean to be ungrateful to those who have supported British Woodworking, but I'm sure Lataxe has some valid points. I'm not convinced they are all valid and I don't think he has substantiated them very clearly. He doesn't seem to understand the complexities and economics of producing a woodworking magazine in Britain. 

And I take huge issue with anyone who says that their comments should not be taken personally. I cringe when I hear that. I don't think you can separate the creative act of woodworking or editing or art or writing from the person, and neither should you. 

However, I am happy to read all the comments in this thread. They fuel the desire to constantly improve one's product. Already I've taken steps to introduce a couple of things raised here. It's a pity when there's bickering, because the Forum is incredibly valuable and shouldn't be undermined. 

Long may it last. 

Nick


----------



## Max Power (21 Apr 2008)

I would second that Mr Henderson. I have only read one issue of the magazine and found it was not for me . Lataxe's comments may have been interpreted as blunt, but are there any British magazines (other than F&C) that cater to anyone with higher aspirations than the average DIYer ?
Lataxe is as entitled to his opinion as anyone else and having enjoyed his posts on Knotts for a good while I can vouch that he does express an opinion as opposed to blindly following the rest of the sheep as is the case with so many forums. I for one am sorry to see him depart as its a range of viewpoints that makes for more interesting reading.


----------



## Benchwayze (21 Apr 2008)

mister henderson":2ydsav2n said:


> I've read through the entire thread carefully, I know nothing of the personalities involved, nor have I read the magazine or any other WW magazines for many years.
> 
> My conclusions are that, based entirely on what has been written, that Lataxe has been unfairly treated by many of the posters to this thread. He has a point of view and he put it clearly and without insulting anyone. I think some of the responses, especially those parodying his screen-name, have been childish



If you haven't read the magazines or the articles, then how can you make a qualified observation on the 'rights' of Lataxe or quantify his opinion?

Yes there is a right to express an opinion, but there's also a 'right' way of doing it. Lataxe insulted a lot of people, and he deserved all he got.

Benchwayze.


----------



## Benchwayze (21 Apr 2008)

Alan Jones":9c336qv1 said:


> I would second that Mr Henderson. I have only read one issue of the magazine and found it was not for me . Lataxe's comments may have been interpreted as blunt, but are there any British magazines (other than F&C) that cater to anyone with higher aspirations than the average DIYer ?
> Lataxe is as entitled to his opinion as anyone else and having enjoyed his posts on Knotts for a good while I can vouch that he does express an opinion as opposed to blindly following the rest of the sheep as is the case with so many forums. I for one am sorry to see him depart as its a range of viewpoints that makes for more interesting reading.



And I'll be darned if I will stand for being called an ''average DIY'er'.
Cheeky so and so.
Benchwayze.


----------



## mister henderson (21 Apr 2008)

Benchwayze":8sdfifsv said:


> If you haven't read the magazines or the articles, then how can you make a qualified observation on the 'rights' of Lataxe or quantify his opinion?



I don't need to read the magazines to comment on the discussion, not the magazines. I didn't offer any opinions about the magazines themselves nor would I, seeing as how I haven't read them


Benchwayze":8sdfifsv said:


> Yes there is a right to express an opinion, but there's also a 'right' way of doing it. Lataxe insulted a lot of people, and he deserved all he got.
> 
> Benchwayze.



I missed the actual insults, do I need to read it again, or did you read more into what he said than what he actually said?


----------



## LarryS. (21 Apr 2008)

Nick, I bought a subscription from you last week at Yandles. Have read the magazine and really enjoyed it. My feedback :

something other special interest magazines have is at the back a section giving review scores of equipment (when I bought a tv I went and bought one of those magazines purely for that section), maybe something you could have in the future (when the reviews / comparisons has built up a bit)

understand there is only so much space in the magazine itself, would be good to be able to get a bit more info on projects on-line (just extra pics or something), some things can be a bit hard to see in the mag on pictures covering everything

agree with a comment on another thread that it would be good to have a sketchup section (i'm just getting into using it and find it almost as interesting as the actual woodwork - but not quite !)

keep it up

as for all the other comments on the thread, I come to this forum to get away from stress and arguing (hope SWIMBO ain't gonna read this) !!


----------



## Benchwayze (21 Apr 2008)

mister henderson":1rbairg1 said:


> Benchwayze":1rbairg1 said:
> 
> 
> > If you haven't read the magazines or the articles, then how can you make a qualified observation on the 'rights' of Lataxe or quantify his opinion?
> ...



If you missed the actual insults, you didn't read the entire thread as carefully as you maintained. I didn't read more into his comments than was there. Perhaps you *should *read it again. Or are you going to be busy making nesting -boxes?

Benchwayze.


----------



## Gary M (21 Apr 2008)

Some of the posters in this thread should be ashamed of themselves

Absolutely Pathetic and Very Childish

Practise what you preach.


----------



## SP (21 Apr 2008)

Totally agree. Very much a case of the mob attacking the few.
Grow up and accept that discussion groups are meant to invite differing opinions.


----------



## Anonymous (21 Apr 2008)

SP":3pcdx9wn said:


> Totally agree. Very much a case of the mob attacking the few.
> Grow up and accept that discussion groups are meant to invite differing opinions.



Sorry but I totally disagree. Mob? Attacking?
Discussion is one thing, insults are quite another. It is not hard to get a point across without being rude , with the lame excuse that the poster is being 'blunt'.


----------



## Benchwayze (21 Apr 2008)

Gary M":abywuzjz said:


> Some of the posters in this thread should be ashamed of themselves
> 
> Absolutely Pathetic and Very Childish
> 
> Practise what (AS YE) you preach.



In what regard Gary? 

Lataxe wasn't attacking me personally, but someone did make a point that readers of BW and similar woodwork magazines are little more than 'DIY'ers' . I have nothing against DIY'ers, but my expertise in woodworking is a little beyond that level. Thus, anyone who suggests I am no more than a DIY'er, because of the magazines I happen to read, insults me, and a specialist woodwork magazine. 

Then, someone claims he has read the thread carefully, but didn't see the insult. So he obviously *didn't *read carefully enough. He should read it again; properly. Also, maybe you should read the thread again and feel insulted along with a few more of us. 

If you didn't read the thread, then my advice is make no comment until you have. Especially please don't label us as childish, because we try to defend ourselves against someone who attacks our integrity because we don't happen to read F&C or FW. 


Regards
BW


----------



## Nick Gibbs (21 Apr 2008)

LarryS":1y1qinul said:


> Nick, I bought a subscription from you last week at Yandles. Have read the magazine and really enjoyed it. My feedback :
> 
> something other special interest magazines have is at the back a section giving review scores of equipment (when I bought a tv I went and bought one of those magazines purely for that section), maybe something you could have in the future (when the reviews / comparisons has built up a bit)
> 
> ...



As the bloke who introduced scores to woodworking magazines 16 years ago it's ironic that I've now moved away from them. We've only used them sparingly in British Woodworking, for the table router test and destruction testing screws, when they were used in conjunction with measured ratings, largely (but not entirely) related to objective testing. I've found that we can offer a more considered and relevant approach without scores. Take for instance the Record tablesaw we tested a few issues ago. I think this is, in principle, an excellent piece of kit for a small workshop. It has many great features, but some drawbacks as well, many of which can be easily overcome by the owner. How, though, does one score such an item? In some ways having to asign a rating actually diminishes one's ability to give an honest appraisal of the kit, because you are left having to justify your score.

But I understand that such ratings are useful for comparisons when you are setting up a workshop. As our range of items tested increases so we'll be able to give wider comparisons. I'm hoping, though, that British Woodworking will be able to help readers come to their own conclusions by explaining the benefits of the various features you get, rather than simply saying which is best. In some simple cases that is certainly possible, but for a tablesaw you need a much wider analysis that outlines the pros and cons for all sorts of circumstances. 

In the case of projects etc.. online, please watch this space. The first few issues of British Woodworking are very much the first steps on a long journey, and we have every intention of using whatever media we can to help woodworkers. We want to encourage as many new woodworkers as possible, and once our website is running more efficiently (I've had to do all the design, formating etc... work on it so far myself from my spare room) we'll do some great stuff, I hope.

Watch this space, also, for SketchUp lessons and information. It is a fantastic piece of software that can help so many woodworkers. 

Thanks for the feedback. It was good to meet you at Yandles. I'm always open to woodworkers offering their perspective. Sometimes you get so close to the magazine, and have so little time in the workshop, that you forget what's essential. 

Cheers

Nick


----------



## mister henderson (22 Apr 2008)

Benchwayze":2rmiq7pv said:


> mister henderson":2rmiq7pv said:
> 
> 
> > Benchwayze":2rmiq7pv said:
> ...



Nope, I didn't miss anything. Perhaps you had better quote the part that you found to be insulting, although I gather from your other comments that your definition of insult is very wide.


----------



## woodbloke (22 Apr 2008)

Alan Jones wrote:


> to anyone with higher aspirations than the average DIYer ?



In common with others, I've been giving this little post a bit of considered thought and have decided that that this is an affront to my capabilities and those of very many others on this forum. Whilst there are areas of DIY where I consider myself to be _avarage_, woodwork is *not * one of them and that is evident for many others on the forum...I hope you wouldn't describe Mr C as an avarage DIYer when it came to woodwork. Grumpily :x - Rob


----------



## Anonymous (22 Apr 2008)

Mod note:

OK

Please stop discussing insults etc. and move back to a discussion of the magazine - it would be a shame to have to lock this thread if it gets too personal


----------



## Nick Gibbs (22 Apr 2008)

I couldn't agree more, Alan. I don't think the readers of British Woodworking are 'average DIYers' (whatever that means), and from my experience they have aspiration and ambition to improve their woodworking and enjoy it even more. I really hope we can overcome the tendency to belittle people whose woodworking ability isn't as great as others, and to share a passion for wood and woodwork in all its forms. That is certainly what we aim to do in the magazine, by covering a range of techniques, projects and ideas as diverse as setting up your first bandsaw in Wood School to discussing Richard Sennett's philosophical book The Craftsman in an interview with Robert Ingham. Coming up soon is a piece about making a computer-powered routing device, an interview with the planemaker Bill Carter, some SketchUp tips and a piece on making a model sailing boat from a kit, plus an item on making your first bench for £40. The topics are wide-ranging, I hope the writing is good, and the enthusiasm is as genuine as the Forum.

Cheers

Nick


----------



## kityuser (22 Apr 2008)

I`ve read this thread from start to finish.

and quite frankly am gobsmacked, My heart sinks, you know what........I thought better of this forum.

just my 2 Ps worth.

Steve


----------



## Benchwayze (22 Apr 2008)

mister henderson":324zujws said:


> Nope, I didn't miss anything. Perhaps you had better quote the part that you found to be insulting, although I gather from your other comments that your definition of insult is very wide.



If I called you a pompous ass, without knowing you, which of course I don't, then I would be insulting you. Would that definition be narrow enough for you?

Just go read it again and put yourself in the place of the person Letaxe was criticising and than tell me you wouldn't feel insulted. If you answer in the negative then you must have skin like the proverbial Rhino. 

BW


----------



## Benchwayze (22 Apr 2008)

Mr Henderson, 
This is taken from the post by Letaxe that started the controversy. He was talking about BW magazine. I have emboldened some sections so you can see what you apparently missed. The italics are mine. 

(_I think Letaxe could profit from studying a good English textbook himself. Woefully amateurish? 'Woefully' is a redundant adjective, an 'ly' word; not liked by the academics. We'll put that aside, as this isn't a place to discuss grammar, syntax and so on. However Letaxe did 'throw the first punch'! )_

He said:

* *The writing style is woefully amateurish, with poor syntax and sudden lurches from one thing to another.* _(That is criticism yes, but it's also INSULTING) _Everything is both hard to read and very sparse in hard information. There is too much "look at my chatty personality", which is OK for forums but not for good quality magazine articles. The worst aspect is the inability to explain things, which are blithely skimmed over. *The author knows what he means therefore so should we, seems to be the attitude - all too common in British WW publications. *

* *The furniture-making articles are mostly (and sadly) of the "simple pine stuff" standard.* _(Another insult to the magazine staff, because it is just not true.) _ *As to the thing to hold a ball of string! This so encourages low standards and feeble ambitions.* _(Does this encourage low standards? Not necessarily. It is a project for a beginner maybe. So there's another ill-considered remark that could be taken as an insult.)_And what of that half-finished article about a book cover!? Just as well, I suppose, as I'd rather darn a sock. 

_(I hope he is good with a needle, because his own syntax is somewhat poor.)_ 
------------------------------------------------------------

Mike C answered:

Steve Maskery and Nick Gibbs amateurish? 

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I am to stunned for words 

Is it still April 1st by any chance? 

IMHO British Woodworking has got better with each issue and I certainly do not think there is anything amateurish about it. Well done Nick and excellent feature Steve 

From what I hear and soon to find out Steves tip about mitre saw dust extraction was worth the price of the mag 

----------------------------------------------------------------

Try to Turn said:

Well I enjoyed reading this months BWW. I find it informative and it caters very well for my current level of experience. 

Sounds to me that as Lataxe is such a good woodworker, that the projects featured are below him and his english is so brilliant he should be contributing to the magazine, with an article so advanced it makes all us mear mortals heads spin. Of course the syntax, language and grammar would be faultless in every way too. (by the way i'm sure mine is not but i don't particularly care!) 

I think this phrase will cover my feelings 

If you don't like it don't b****y buy it.
_________________

Slim said:
Lataxe, 

*It might be nice for you to at least introduce yourself, before you start belittling and insulting our members.* (Yes, Steve Maskery and Nick Gibbs are members here as well.)
_________________
Cheers 
Simon
---------------------------------------------------------------

I won't go on. I'd be here all day cutting and pasting. But as I said, had you been the target of this conceited and destructive critique I believe you might have found it insulting. If not then, as I said, you must be somewhat thick-skinned.

Now I am off to my shop to make some 'pine thingies'; in English walnut this time though.

No more response on this from me. 
BW


----------



## Nick Gibbs (22 Apr 2008)

I am fortunately hard-skinned these days. But I did cringe at being described as 'amateurish'. 

Having edited magazines for 20 years it's obviously not factually correct, and if it's meant as an insult it's demeaning of amateurs. 

I tend to agree with James Krenov, who wrote about the 'impractical but dedicated amateur... who is an idealist who wants to survive to have the chance to work with wood, but not at the price of having woodworking become something less than he hoped it would be'. Krenov spoke about amateurs 'enjoying' their woodwork, and I for one would prefer to be amateur if the price is no longer enjoying my time in the workshop. And in a funny way the same is true of editing magazines. In my experience, woodworkers who don't earn their living by their work are often (though far from always) the most open to new ideas, and sometimes have the luxury of being able to push the limits of our craft further and further. 

The pine bit is clearly wrong, because we've only featured a couple of projects that are made from softwood, one of which was Steve Maskery's excellent office unit in the latest issue, and Bill Newton's intriguing coffee table in BW02. 

So be it. 

Cheers

Nick


----------



## OPJ (22 Apr 2008)

I'm disappointed to see that regular members are now arguing amongst themselves over this! Lataxe is gone (or, reading over this right now, laughing to himself...). We all have our own opinions and know where each one of us stands. Let's leave it at that, please!!

Where were we... Only one month until the next issue - we're halfway there!


----------



## wizer (22 Apr 2008)

OPJ":25gztf3s said:


> I'm disappointed to see that regular members are now arguing amongst themselves over this! Lataxe is gone (or, reading over this right now, laughing to himself...). We all have our own opinions and know where each one of us stands. Let's leave it at that, please!!



Seconded (said with tongue firmly bitten)


----------



## Benchwayze (22 Apr 2008)

OPJ":3n5yn67y said:


> I'm disappointed to see that regular members are now arguing amongst themselves over this! Lataxe is gone (or, reading over this right now, laughing to himself...). We all have our own opinions and know where each one of us stands. Let's leave it at that, please!!
> 
> Where were we... Only one month until the next issue - we're halfway there!



Point taken Ollie. You are right. Once more, I am done with it.

(I just glued up the 'walnut thingies' by the way. Finished for today; one of the joys of retirement!)


Thanks my friend and my Regards. 

John


----------



## Jake (22 Apr 2008)

OPJ":2zhyryad said:


> I'm disappointed to see that regular members are now arguing amongst themselves over this!



What an outrageous statement. That's highly insulting to the argumentative among us. Pistols at dawn are the only way to restore my oh err I mean their honour.


----------



## woodbloke (22 Apr 2008)

I feel also that this thread has had a good run, all sorts of issues having been raised, some valid and others clearly ludicrous (IMO) Suffice to say that I've been won over to BW and will continue to subscribe (but I'll still take F&C as well  )...all power then to Nick's inky fingers  - Rob


----------



## Lataxe (22 Apr 2008)

I have been reading the thread but not laughing at anyone, not even the huffers and puffers. It was a relief to see Mr Gibbs is "thick skinned" and therefore, I hope, content that my original posts have at least caused a vigorous discussion of his magazine. No such thing as bad publicity, eh. 

My intent was to be controversial, although I had hoped it would lead to criticisms and defence of the magazine style, content and clarification of its raison d'etre rather than some of the laddish exchanges that have ocurred (and I was guilty of a couple too - birdbox remarks, for example - so apologies for those at least).

I don't feel a need to apologise to you, Mr Gibbs. I have been harsh but I don't mind in the least if you are harsh back. In my experience little is actually achieved in discussions by being nicey-nice and offering nothing worse than faint praise. Perhaps you might consider again your belief that criticism of the magazine is some how personal to you? If that were the case, how is anyone ever going to question the content without you taking offense? 

I don't question your dedication, hard work or abilities. I question the style and content of the magazine and assume that (were you persuaded) your abilities would easily allow you to change that conduct and style to something else. Neither do I expect you to change it just because I say so. I merely make suggestions as to why I think you should (my opinion) with reasons why I think the current content is inadequate and suggestions about what you could do instead. You are perfectly free to ignore everything I suggest without that somehow making you a bad person, in my eyes or anyone else's. 

In short, why not be be professional about criticism? I worked for many years in an environment where long-researched and sweated-over technical or other written productions were vigorously and heavily criticised in every way you can imagine. It would have been very petty of me to take such criticism personally. After the heavy duty arguments they were rewritten and they were always better for it. In that workplace, which was not unlike yours in intent (education in a palatable even entertaining form) the idea was to test and refine a document until it was fit for purpose, not for people to pat me on the back and admire how hard I'd worked. 

This is how I look at a magazine you are trying to sell me. It has to be of use to me or get criticised by me. if the criticism falls on deaf ears, so be it. I don't mind you selling to a different market and you shouldn't mind me telling you why I'm not in that market, especially if you would like me to change my mind and buy it. (I presume you do want to sell to as wide a readership as you can).

This post is already boring and long enough so I'll try again to state my fundamental criticisms now:

1) You seem to have made an assumption that your market is hobbyists, including beginners but that such people only require very basic information, very easy challenges-to-make and inexpensive tools. I think that is a false assumption (bordering on insulting when you opine that a beginner should expect to make do with some cheap tool or other to construct sticks for balls of string or book jackets of the not-illustrated variety). This assumption will limit your market, more to the point.

2) The magazine style seems more concerned to sell personalities than it is to provide good quality how-to or other technical information. Articles discussing personalities certainly have their place (eg your innovators article) but shouldn't overwhelm technical articles to the point where the how-to is obscure, incomplete and inter-twined with spurious personal opinions, histories and "feelings about stuff". 

I'd like you to attempt a refutation or at least state in clear terms what your editorial policy is, what the magazines goals are and the fundamental types of content you think are appropriate to them - the what and the why.

Of course, what I would like is neither here not there, so you can simply ignore me if you wish and plough your own furrow. There seem to be plenty of folk on this forum who are content with the magazine as-is. I don't mind in the least; but then my money stays in my pocket and I suspect that there will be a lot more like me - many others who might otherwise be your customer.

Lataxe, no couch potato (magazine-reading variety).


----------



## Martin Brown (22 Apr 2008)

All this seems a bit harsh for such a well meaning fellow like Nick. Such comment is more suitable for PM.

Judge Nick for yourself at shows like the Classic Hand tools event where he will be in attendance.

Mods?

Martin


----------



## beech1948 (22 Apr 2008)

I for one would like to welcome Lataxe to the forum. 

His first post has created a storm, has been deliberately provocative and has exposed the "huffers and puffers" of this forum.

I too work in an environment of rigorous and brutal comment and critique made professionally and with feedback including the evidence needed to substantiate and prove the feedback. 

I am glad to see that a few have risen to this challenge to us and am sorry to see that so many have responded by assuming personal insult. 

Have I enjoyed this thread. Yes. 
Do I want to see a more off balance, off comfortable path opinion. Yes.

Thanks and regards Lataxe

Alan


----------



## Slim (22 Apr 2008)

Lataxe,

If only you had made your earlier posts in the same respectful style you made that one.

Thanks for responding.


----------



## Anonymous (22 Apr 2008)

beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:


> I for one would like to welcome Lataxe to the forum.


He is not a new member, he joined in 2006. 


beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:


> His first post has created a storm, has been deliberately provocative and has exposed the "huffers and puffers" of this forum.


Why the need to provoke? Why not simply state an opinion, without insults? If by' huffers and puffers' you mean those that felt insulted then they had every right to say so. 


beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:


> I too work in an environment of rigorous and brutal comment and critique made professionally and with feedback including the evidence needed to substantiate and prove the feedback.


We are not in 'a professional environment' though are we? We are on a, for the most part, friendly and good natured forum. So the above has no relevance. 


beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:


> I am glad to see that a few have risen to this challenge to us and am sorry to see that so many have responded by assuming personal insult.


Again, why should there be a need to 'challenge' anyone? Sounds rather confrontational to me. 
I don't think any insult needed to be 'assumed', it was quite evident from my reading of the posts. 


beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:


> Have I enjoyed this thread. Yes.
> Do I want to see a more off balance, off comfortable path opinion. Yes.


As would I, without the 'abrasive' tone some people seem to think is OK on a forum such as this; It isn't, this isn't usenet. 


beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:


> Thanks and regards Lataxe
> 
> Alan


----------



## beech1948 (22 Apr 2008)

Steve,

Lataxe is new to me. I don't really care at all about the chronological exactitude of when s/he joined. Just a "Welcome" pull up a chair, have a chat.

You mentioned professionalism. I am always in a professional mind set, even in the pub, my workshop and my job and laughing and talking to mates. Its who I am. My training has made the human part of me concerned to always be seen as a pro. Are you saying that you are a pro sometimes and much less than that at other times. Much of the comment here is upto professional standards. Certainly much of the work presented is that good. I treat each of you as professionals and I expect the same back. I expect honesty, integrity, trust and clarity from you all.

You comment above provocation and abrasiveness. Its all in the mind of the beholder as to what degree to accept. Your and my tolerance for this is obviously different. Thats neither good nor bad it just is.

As to my comment about assumption of insult. I think what I was trying to convey is that a number of people who I believe were not insulted drew out an insult to them by personalising something which was not aimed at them at all. If we personalise in that way we would be insulted by everything challenging said in the world. 

So you ended by mentioning "usenet" in what I interpreted as a disparaging way and I agree that to decsend to that level would be a blow to us all. But should I now feel insulted that you equate my post to "usenet". I do not but I could take imagined umbrage about that if I was to be disposed in that direction. Its easy to do when you take text messages as a literal personal criticism.

A little grit in the oiled commentary of the forum may add some fun, some new knowledge, spark some more interest, add to the number of REGULAR posters, make life more sparkling...or not as you see fit.

My grandad once said to me that a craftsman may work alone producing a masterpiece, be technically challenged, trialled and tested by the technique but only he knew the weight of effort and challenge he used to create his masterpiece and all he needed was a client able to see and understand that effort and skill to feel vindicated or not.

So all in all I am going back to the woodwork. Have fun, love life, live long.

regards
Alan


----------



## Nick Gibbs (22 Apr 2008)

Lataxe":3hl7htif said:


> In short, why not be be professional about criticism?



Wow. I find that startling. I have gone out of my way throughout this thread to say that I have been listening to comments from all sides. I have tried time and again to explain the editorial policy of British Woodworking. I don't think I could have been much clearer than what I said a few pages ago. I even supported Mr Henderson when he commented that you should not have been attacked. 

I've edited enough magazines to know that we must continually make British Woodworking better. I also know that British woodworking magazines need as many imaginative and talented voices as possible, or they will be subsumed by imports from abroad. I am happy with the direction the magazine is taking, overwhelmed by the feedback and support, and hope one day we can meet, Lataxe, so that I can explain the rationale and economics in more detail. 

Cheers

Nick


----------



## Anonymous (23 Apr 2008)

beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:


> Steve,
> 
> Lataxe is new to me. I don't really care at all about the chronological exactitude of when s/he joined. Just a "Welcome" pull up a chair, have a chat.


Hi Alan 
The point I was making was that he/she is not new to this forum, in fact joined quite some time ago and thus, ought to have an idea of the general good nature of this forum how it 'runs' as it were. I should have said that in my last post so, my error. 


beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:


> You mentioned professionalism. I am always in a professional mind set, even in the pub, my workshop and my job and laughing and talking to mates. Its who I am. My training has made the human part of me concerned to always be seen as a pro. Are you saying that you are a pro sometimes and much less than that at other times.


Most definitely yes. When working I give 100%, I earn every penny, i've been known often to work for many hours unpaid so that a job was done properly. 
Away from work I am quite different in many respects. I think it's called 'chillin out' but don't quote me on that.


beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:


> Much of the comment here is upto professional standards. Certainly much of the work presented is that good. I treat each of you as professionals and I expect the same back. I expect honesty, integrity, trust and clarity from you all.


To fulfill all the above can be a tall order, clarity especially, since we are in a virtual place( here) and meaning is open to interpretation. I too prefer honesty but, it isn't so cut and dried. If I see a piece of work I like then I might well say so. I might not if many have already, it gets a bit tedious to read if there is pages of it. If I see a piece I don't like then I generally keep quiet about it. Why should I hurt someones feelings just because I don't like what they have made? 


beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:


> <snipped>
> 
> So you ended by mentioning "usenet" in what I interpreted as a disparaging way .....


I did not mean it that way and I apologise if that was the impression I gave. I merely meant that this is a somewhat more light hearted place than many discussion boards. 


beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:


> <snipped>
> 
> So all in all I am going back to the woodwork.


Me too, after I've had a bit of a kip that is. It's been a long day and a bit.


----------



## Lataxe (23 Apr 2008)

Mr G,

You say, "I have gone out of my way throughout this thread to say that I have been listening to comments from all sides. I have tried time and again to explain the editorial policy of British Woodworking. I don't think I could have been much clearer than what I said a few pages ago".

Sadly I have to disagree with you again. 

You have not "gone out your way"; it is your job to make the magazine and persuade us to buy it. Perhaps you disagree with that too, although you seem to have been gathering some customers here alright, eh? 

You have offered a rather high-level description of a couple of things you are aiming for in the magazine. That hardly counts as "explaining....time and time again". It was once and there wasn't a lot of explanation. The explanation seems to be largely, "watch this space".

***

But I am probably flogging a dead horse here. I really will stop it now and hope that you have been shoved out your comfort zone for a bit and might think a bit more about possibilities for the magazine outside of it's currently rather mediocre aims. I look forward to a future issue that
will encourage me to praise you to the skies rather than nibble at your ankle.

Lataxe


----------



## OPJ (23 Apr 2008)

Lataxe":326iftuh said:


> 1) You seem to have made an assumption that your market is hobbyists, including beginners but that such people only require very basic information, very easy challenges-to-make and inexpensive tools. I think that is a false assumption (bordering on insulting when you opine that a beginner should expect to make do with some cheap tool or other to construct sticks for balls of string or book jackets of the not-illustrated variety). This assumption will limit your market, more to the point.



I've never spoken to Nick personally about his precise goals and targets for any of his previous or current magazines but, the way I see it, Nick is not only trying to sell and magazine, he's also trying to encourage and introduce people to the Wonderful World of Woodwork.

When I started back at college in September (Cabinet Making), I was astonished by the lack of confidence in the other nine members of my class (I'd previously done Carpenty & Joinery :wink: ). In order for people with no previous experience to build on their skills and find confidence, they have to start off working slowly without too much complication. I think that's what Nick's trying to do with these "easy" projects - to show people that it's really not that difficult and give them the confidence to simply "have a go".

I still consider myself relatively new to all this, after two college courses. I also remember the first time I read F&C and my jaw hit the floor! 



Lataxe":326iftuh said:


> 2) The magazine style seems more concerned to sell personalities than it is to provide good quality how-to or other technical information. Articles discussing personalities certainly have their place (eg your innovators article) but shouldn't overwhelm technical articles to the point where the how-to is obscure, incomplete and inter-twined with spurious personal opinions, histories and "feelings about stuff".



For a magazine at this level, with its "Target Audience" taken in to consideration, I've personally found that having a "friendly" written style to any article makes you feel more at home and at ease. It's not like reading from a dry textbook; "I made this; it's made from Ash; I went through the same old machining processes you've already read about hundreds of times, before I slapped on some varnish, etc."... I'll be honest and say that some of the pieces Steve has made in the past don't suit my personal tastes, but I do enjoy reading what he has to say.

Another point I feel worth mentioning is that it's more than likely the majority of people feel quite "lonely" in their hobby - how many other woodworkers do you know in your area? I've worked with carpenters and bench joiners but, when 5 o'clock comes, they down their tools and that's it. It's nice to know and feel that you're not the only person in the world who spends a large portion of their spare time fiddling with bits of wood - and I guess that's also why we turn to the internet, with sites like this. :? :wink:


----------



## woodbloke (23 Apr 2008)

OPJ wrote:


> For a magazine at this level, with its "Target Audience" taken in to consideration, I've personally found that having a "friendly" written style to any article makes you feel more at home and at ease. It's not like reading from a dry textbook; "I made this; it's made from Ash; I went through the same old machining processes you've already read about hundreds of times, before I slapped on some varnish, etc."... I'll be honest and say that some of the pieces Steve has made in the past don't suit my personal tastes, but I do enjoy reading what he has to say.


In conversation with Nick personally _at length_ at Yandles the other week, I have to agree with OPJ that this 'friendly' approach is the one that Nick is encouraging. The dry-as-dust, 'this is how I did it' _how-to_ angle that a certain poster seems bent on encouraging is not...and I'll repeat that... *not * what Nick is aiming for. The 'how-to' is important for sure but it should be wrapped up in such a way that there is a story to be told that's entertaining at a personal level - Rob


----------



## Nick Gibbs (23 Apr 2008)

Lataxe":28iduujk said:


> But I am probably flogging a dead horse here. I really will stop it now and hope that you have been shoved out your comfort zone for a bit and might think a bit more about possibilities for the magazine outside of it's currently rather mediocre aims. Lataxe



What 'comfort zone'? I don't think my family see it that way. That I have only 'mediocre aims' is beyond belief. You obviously have no idea about publishing. Olly is exactly right: we are trying to produce a magazine that is technical on all levels, but also approachable and written in a journalistic style that makes it more readable than most woodworking magazines. My hunch is that many woodworking magazines are skimmed rather than read in depth, and we are trying to produce a magazine that is more readable. The vast majority of responses we've had confirm that readers are picking up on that, and find much more to read in British Woodworking than in most woodworking magazines. 

But we can't satisfy everyone. If you email me your postal address I will send you a sample copy of the next issue. That offer is open to anyone who hasn't seen the magazine before.

Nick


----------



## Anonymous (23 Apr 2008)

Can I smell Trolls? Perhaps it's best not to feed them. 

But seriously, it seems to matter not a jot, to Latexe, what anyone, mainly Nick Gibbs, says. His mind is set, in stone it would seem, and nowt is gonna change it. I, for one, shall rise no more to the bait.


----------



## Smudger (23 Apr 2008)

I don't think so, Steve. I think that Latex just has a huge ego, and doesn't see why he shouldn't give everyone the benefit of his superior opinion - ad nauseam. Because if it's HIS opinion we must be interested in it.

As someone (might have been you or me some time back) said - if you don't like it, don't buy it...

Nick - for me, keep up the good work.


----------



## Anonymous (23 Apr 2008)

Smudger":1fqyzmat said:


> I don't think so, Steve. I think that Latex just has a huge ego, and doesn't see why he shouldn't give everyone the benefit of his superior opinion - ad nauseam. Because if it's HIS opinion we must be interested in it.
> 
> As someone (might have been you or me some time back) said - if you don't like it, don't buy it...
> 
> Nick - for me, keep up the good work.


OK Smudger I may be wrong with the troll bit but, still think nothing will change his view, as you say ego and all that.
Well I've had enough of this nonsense, it aint what I come here for.


----------



## mister henderson (23 Apr 2008)

I presume that in the last two posts in which Lataxe's name was spelled incorrectly, that that mis-spelling was deliberate (and therefore childish)? Or perhaps a touch of dyslexia?


----------



## Slim (23 Apr 2008)

mister henderson":2fpdn4vq said:


> I presume that in the last two posts in which Lataxe's name was spelled incorrectly, that that mis-spelling was deliberate (and therefore childish)? Or perhaps a touch of dyslexia?



A few people have been accidentely misspelling it 'Latexe' throughout the entire thread. Also I can't quite figure why you would think 'Latexe' and 'Latex' would be an insult and there fore childish. I am sure Steve and Dick did not mean to offend, and they were accidental misspellings. Besides, I sure they can come up with better ones than that.  

Strange how you couldn't see how insulting Lataxe was to Steve, but you can see offence here, where there isn't any. :?:


----------



## mr (23 Apr 2008)




----------



## Smudger (23 Apr 2008)

mister henderson":zki7erb8 said:


> I presume that in the last two posts in which Lataxe's name was spelled incorrectly, that that mis-spelling was deliberate (and therefore childish)? Or perhaps a touch of dyslexia?



Presume away.


----------



## BradNaylor (23 Apr 2008)

Slim":3g7ck4dw said:


> mister henderson":3g7ck4dw said:
> 
> 
> > I presume that in the last two posts in which Lataxe's name was spelled incorrectly, that that mis-spelling was deliberate (and therefore childish)? Or perhaps a touch of dyslexia?
> ...



Mr Henderson sounds like he's Latexe's rent boy!

God, but this thread is boring!


----------



## Smudger (23 Apr 2008)

Couldn't agree more.

So here's a picture of pretty little kittens to cheer everybody up.


----------



## Slim (23 Apr 2008)

God I hate cats! Grrrr...


----------



## Smudger (23 Apr 2008)

But they are all cute and fluffy!


----------



## Slim (23 Apr 2008)

Yeah, but they make my eyes swell to twice their normal size.

ACHOOO!

Oh yeah ACHOOO! they make me ACHOOO! sneeze as well ACHOOO!


----------



## Smudger (23 Apr 2008)

Oh that's easily cured.

Varnish them.

How are you on rabbits?


----------



## Karl (23 Apr 2008)

Our neighbours cat is presently trying to get hold of our new rabbit - it must be thick as the rabbit is bigger than it!

Should be a good scrap when it gets going......

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Slim (23 Apr 2008)

Dick, I'm not alergic to rabbits, but they do make a hell of a mess down at the allotment. Nasty little blighters! :roll: :wink:


----------



## Smudger (23 Apr 2008)

Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKcUpv1mfU0&feature=related


----------



## Smudger (23 Apr 2008)

Slim":37cxmzxj said:


> Dick, I'm not alergic to rabbits, but they do make a hell of a mess down at the allotment. Nasty little blighters! :roll: :wink:



You're not really at one with the animal kingdom, are you? :roll: 

How about this? Rabbits get their beats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D35uQCtr4EY&feature=related


----------



## Slim (23 Apr 2008)

Smudger":1e3b5wkw said:


> How about this? Rabbits get their beats.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D35uQCtr4EY&feature=related



:lol: Are they UN chickens?


----------



## Anonymous (23 Apr 2008)

mister henderson":rwy72ze3 said:


> I presume that in the last two posts in which Lataxe's name was spelled incorrectly, that that mis-spelling was deliberate (and therefore childish)? Or perhaps a touch of dyslexia?



Presume all you want. However it was mistake due to not being all that chipper today/yesterday, whenever the hell it was.


And yes this is getting very boring. (apart from the fluffy bunny fight, which was quite funny) :lol:


----------



## Smudger (23 Apr 2008)

Slim":95vzr47g said:


> Smudger":95vzr47g said:
> 
> 
> > How about this? Rabbits get their beats.
> ...



Yeah - they've got blue beaks.


----------



## Anonymous (24 Apr 2008)

OK

I think all has been said on this subject, and this thread is now locked has it has become too personal.


----------

