# Harry Potter



## DomValente (15 Jul 2007)

After reading a sub thread in General Woodworking my curiosity got the better of me.
I am an avid reader and if, twenty years ago , you had told me I would be reading the Harry Potter books I would have slapped you with my Filofax.
Well I'm Dom and I read J.K. Rowlings' books.

Do You?


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## Paul Chapman (15 Jul 2007)

Never read one. Who's Harry Potter anyway - is he a woodworker :? :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## ByronBlack (15 Jul 2007)

I'm really staggered that any adult would waste their time reading Harry Potter when there is a whole world of really good and well written literature to be had - I really really do not get it - as you may have guessed  

Dom - please tell me what you find so good about these books as in my mind they are squarely targeted for children and quite poorly written IMVHO I would like to understand (I'm not being facetious - generally would like to know your opinion).


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## Smudger (15 Jul 2007)

There's always a sort of backlash in which some people rubbish anything which is popular - not sure why that is, but they are probably making more of a statement about themselves than what they are distancing themselves from.

Rowling actually writes very well, firm characterisation, strong plots and great themes (good v evil - nothing stronger!). Her style is unexceptional but sound, rather cinematic in later books, which appeals to younger readers in particular. She has a very developed vision of the continuing story, which adds to the interest.

Two points - there is not really a distinction between children's and adults' books - and if there was, why would children's books be considered inferior?
She has brought millions of people, many of them youngsters who didn't read much before, back to reading for pleasure.

From my own point of view, seeing how more able youngsters are caught up in her stories and get tremendous pleasure from them I am very grateful to her.

And her books have sold 325 million copies. So at least a few people find her work OK.


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## DomValente (15 Jul 2007)

Byron, It's pure escapism.
I also read Simon Scarrow and Clive Cussler.
On the other hand I have studied Freud and Nietzsche.
I read Shakespeare and Tennyson, Kipling and Auden.
Many of these tomes have underlying meanings, Rowling may well be guilty of the same, but I don't look for it.
I'll read most things, including this forum with all of it's hidden intrigue  

Dom


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## Slim (15 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":33qxby6k said:


> I'm really staggered that any adult would waste their time reading Harry Potter when there is a whole world of really good and well written literature to be had - I really really do not get it - as you may have guessed



Have you ever tried reading one Byron? I was of the same opinion as you until one day I put my back out and couldn't work. The only book I had on my shelf that I hadn't read was The Philosophers Stone. I read it in about 5 hours, and then immediately ordered the rest from Amazon.com.

I really don't care who it was written for. I enjoy it and that is all that counts.


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## Gill (15 Jul 2007)

I certainly read them and I've already seen _Order of the Phoenix_ at the local flicks. Not the best film but there again, it's a story which sows the seeds of plots for the remaining stories. It's a bit like Tolkein's _The Two Towers_ in that respect.

No matter what educated readers may think of the technical standard of Rowling as an author, there can be no doubt that the Harry Potter stories have caught the public imagination. What's more, they've done it organically. Bloomsbury, the publisher is not a large concern and when the first stories were published they became popular through word of mouth as children told each other about them. Parents became interested through their children and by the time Prisoner of Azkaban was published, a huge interest had been created. There may be a huge publicity machine attached to the Harry Potter brand now but it didn't start out that way.

There's something about the stories which is captivating. It doesn't matter that they're not technical masterpieces, nor does it matter that they're written for children. The same could be said of Tolkein's works yet their success is unquestionable. The point is that the stories work, they grip the reader. Surely reading a book, any book, has to be better than sitting passively in front of a screen and not having to conjure images in your mind?

Nowadays we're accustomed to information being passed to us in a readily digestible form. Our popular newspapers are written so that they can be consumed by those with a reading age of 11. Reading seems to be perceived nowadays as a means of disseminating information rather than a creative form in its own right which can delight, educate and stimulate. If Harry Potter introduces more people to reading books, then Rowling is making a fine contribution to our society. There's a world of other books to be explored and the chances are that many will use Rowling's writings as a passport to the delightful world of literature.

And I shall be queuing up at midnight for _The Deathly Hallows_ when it's released - I'm hooked  !

Gill


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## Alf (15 Jul 2007)

Alas, in a desperate bid to avoid going "huh"? for the next couple of weeks, I'm ploughing my way through the darn things. I'm afraid Ms Rowling's not a good writer, which is a shame 'cos some of the _original_ ideas are quite good. It's a shame she has to rely on the hero being an eavesdropping little sneak to get the plot moving along so often, f'rinstance. She's got better, mind you, but I think some of that seems to have resulted from the films - not least the slightly more than 2-D characterisation. But heck, it's nice work if you can get it, eh? And if it gets folks reading instead of wearing out their thumbs on games consoles or texting, gotta be a good thing. But adults, have the courage of your convictions and stop with the "adult editions" already! Honestly. :roll:

Edited to conceal potential spoilers - highlight to read! :arrow:Currently perplexed by the Thestrals - if you can see them if you've seen death, surely Our Hero should have been able to see them much sooner? After all, even if he wasn't supposed to have witnessed his mother's actual demise (which I thought he had), what about the guy with wotsit's head sticking out of the back of his skull in the Philosopher's Stone? Don't non-human deaths count either? Smacks of convenient plot device to me - but I shall wade on to discover for myself...

Cheers, Alf


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## mailee (15 Jul 2007)

AW, darn it ALF! Now you have gone and spoiled it for me.  I have to agree with most of the posts on here that it has got to be a good thing if it has made kids start reading again! Last time I gave my son a book to read he asked me where to turn it on!! Got to admit I have never read any of the Harry Potter books but so far have seen most of the movies. Of course at first I thought it was just for kids and of no interest to me but after watching the first movie I was hooked. Mind you I am a big kid according to my wife. :lol:


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## ByronBlack (15 Jul 2007)

There's really no need for any to try and justify there liking of the books - really, I have nothing against anyone who reads them, I personally just can't understand it - but each to their own, and i'm open and listening to all your points made, so please dont feel my opinion is an attack on your personally because it really isnt', i'm genuinly interested to understand what makes these books stand out from a vast array of superior writers and equally good storylines.

Slimjim - I started reading the first book, got about half-way or so and put it down, the writing isn't very good, and I really don't think the storylines are particularly inventive (i've been forced to watch three of the films) compared to most authors I read. (Briam Lumley, Anne Rice, Stephen King, James Herbert, and like Dom: shakespear, and cussler, I also enjoy HP lovecraft, and Edgar allen Poe and dare I say it Dan Brown).

Smudger - it's too easy to that there's always a backlash because it's popular, i'm questioning it's quality from a well-read perspective, not mearly because it's popular.

Great themes? Good v Evil? Not very inventive, and as transparent as any story i've seen/read.

Continuing story: continuing bank balance! If she is a great writer, why has she not tried anything different for the last 15 years? I'll be intrigued to see what her next non harry potter effort will be like.

However, for kids, i think it's great, anything to get the little blighters to read more and become more literate is a great thing, and it should be brought into the curriculum (not nessacarily harry potter - but books in general).


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## White House Workshop (15 Jul 2007)

I've never read any of the books but am reliably informed that the writing is 'average' for children's books and well below any sort of good literary standard. I did try and watch a film once (on an aeroplane because there was nothing better to do on a flight back from Sydney!) and I turned off after about 30 minutes as it was REALLY boring... 

If it gets kids reading that's one thing, but when they pick up a really good book many of them stop again (told to me by a teacher). We live in an era of instant and simple gratification that requires minimal intellectual challenge. Why else would Nintendo try to get people using their brains again - and make money out of it to boot? And why would anyone be daft enough to pay them for it???


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## Alf (15 Jul 2007)

mailee":37pysrdk said:


> AW, darn it ALF!


Sorry! Sorry! Dammit, where are the spoiler tags when you need 'em...? #-o

Cheers, Alf


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## Smudger (15 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":11nrbveb said:


> I'm really staggered that any adult would waste their time reading Harry Potter



Then you wrote
"I have nothing against anyone who reads them"

Well your first statement doesn't read like that!


And I'm answering you from a pretty well-read perspective!


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## woodbloke (15 Jul 2007)

Agree here with wot Alf's said. I got about 100 pages into the first one and took an almost instant dislike to JKR's view that 'Muggles' (that's you and me) are universally stupid klutzes and that the sun shines out of all orifices if someone has a hint of so called 'magic' about them, so havn't bothered with any of the others nor even the cinematic versions......now Sharpie, CS Forester or Tolkein are somat else entirely :wink:....as an aside tho', it is interesting to have a coffee in the Elephant Cafe in Edinburgh and possibly sit at the same table where JK penned the first rough copy a few years ago and a whole lot of £millions ago as well - Rob


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## ByronBlack (15 Jul 2007)

Smudger":1cse6l58 said:


> ByronBlack":1cse6l58 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm really staggered that any adult would waste their time reading Harry Potter
> ...



Smudger, no need to start dragging the argument out of context try and give a reasoned retort to my statement.

I am entitled to think that reading harry potter is a waste of time and yet respect others wishes for doing so - why is that hard to understand?

For example: I'm also staggered at why a grown adult would want to read the Sun newspaper, but does that mean I have a personal grievence with them? Of course not, it's their choice, just as reading Harry Potter is their choice, i'm simply challenging those who do read it to help me understand what the appeal is. And i've yet to be convinced by anyones argument, other than Dom's reasons for escapism.

So come on smudger me old pal - give me one really good solid reason that would convince me to put down a good Dan Brown book (just as an example) in preference to a Harry Potter?

Dom - I noticed you studied Freud; I think you may enjoy the book I mentioned somewhere else in the previous discussion: Interpretation of murder, it's a fiction tale based on factual events of when Freud, Jung, Ferneczi et al travelled to america to spread the word of psychoanalysis - and get caught up in a murder investigation. A young follower of Freud's techniques is given the task analyze one of the victims to work out the murderer - exceptionally good book and a nice insight into some of Freud's Oedipal theories. I think you may enjoy it.


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## woodbloke (15 Jul 2007)

....thinking about it a little further, my daughter Megs when she was in the 6th form a few years ago suggested they do a Christmas review.......Harry Pothead and the Chamber of Sextoys :lol: ..... got booted straight into touch :lol: - Rob


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## Slim (15 Jul 2007)

Byron, its all a matter of taste. Nothing anyone could say would make you understand as it is simply not your taste. In the same way that Dan Brown is not to my taste. Although having said that, I did quite enjoy Angels & Demons and the Da Vinci Code, but I disliked Deception Point and Digital Fortress.

We have different tastes in all walks of life, whether it be music, films, furniture or books. As you say, "each to their own"

Did you enjoy Lord of the Rings?


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## ByronBlack (15 Jul 2007)

Slimjim - fair point, but I think the difference is that I see Dan Brown books aimed at the adult fiction market, whereas Harry Potter IMO is a childs set of books, so i'm finding hard to understand what the appeal for an adult would be considering the same thing for adult market is catered for by other authors and story genres - I can't see the appeal or the fanatacism that some people are about what is essentially a very non original set of characters.

Lord of the rings - film or book? The films were ok, again they are childrens stories, I read the hobbit when I was younger, got bored by it, and dipped in and out of the other books. I'm not a major fan, but was certainly more original and ground breaking than harry potter.


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## Slim (15 Jul 2007)

I agree with you that more 'suitable' books are availiable for adults, and I will probably read those as well. However, as far as I am concerned, there is nothing wrong with enjoying Harry Potter whether it be written for childeren or not. (I know you are not saying that there is). 

Maybe I am a bit of a big kid, but I also enjoy the new wave of animated films, and often find them a lot more humourous than the so called comedies that are released for the adult audience. At the same time though, I read and watch lots of adult orientated books and films. 

I suspect the only way you could satisfy your curiosities with the Harry Potter books is to sit down and read them all. A suggestion that might not go down so well. You said that you got half way through the first book, which is probably the worst of the lot. The subsequent books become more intertwined with each other (rather like one book split into 4 or 5 installments.) I found that the story became almost addictive, and I had to read on to find out how pieces of the plot related to each other. I think the third book (The Prisoner of Azkaban) has been the best so far. The plot and the use of time travel are very clever.

I only asked about The Lord of the Rings, because I found the books rather boring. There was far to much 'setting the scene' going on. Tolkein described the scenery down to the very last leaf on the very last tree, which became very tiresome, when all I wanted to know was what was going to happen next.


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## DomValente (15 Jul 2007)

Thanks BB, sounds good to me, but you could have told me a couple of hours ago when Waterstones was still open  

Dom


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## ByronBlack (15 Jul 2007)

Dom, PM me your address and i'll put it in the post to you.


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## cutting42 (15 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":21bv8rvd said:


> Slimjim - fair point, but I think the difference is that I see Dan Brown books aimed at the adult fiction market, whereas Harry Potter IMO is a childs set of books,



Bizarrely I see Dan Brown as an exact copy of Ms Rowling. Both are poor creative writers, highly derivative and pander to their markets. They are also extremely successful and rich!

However we should not be judging them by high and mighty academic ideals and trying to introduce Freud and Oedipal theories to what are plainly populist fiction.

[edit] Having just reread the thread I realise this was not directly compared, but there seemed to be a hint of HP is not high end literary - which it isn't but does not try to be either! 

I also happen to enjoy them both immensely for what they are, escapist stories like a thousand other books. I enjoy Dairy milk as well as Lindt 85% cocoa chocolate!


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## Smudger (15 Jul 2007)

It's taste. I can't stand Dan Brown, but two years ago you only had to get on a commuter train to see how popular he is/was.


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## Mike.C (15 Jul 2007)

> cutting42,
> 
> I also happen to enjoy them both immensely for what they are, escapist stories like a thousand other books.



Spot on.

Cheers

Mike


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## bodgermatic (15 Jul 2007)

I believe it says in some book somewhere:

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. When I became a man, I put away childish things"

I have a limited life, and in that life a limited time for reading (although I read a lot). I am selective about what I read, if I start reading a book and don't enjoy it, or don't think that it's challenging me, or making me think, I stop reading it and move on. The Harry Potter series is written for children, and I don't think it would either challenge me, make me think, nor contain the levels of sex, violence and what have you (I believe they call them 'adult themes' in films) I have become accustomed to. From my point of view, a generally impoverished reading experience. I completely accept that others may enjoy them, but if one more Harry Potter fan tells me I MUST read them :roll:


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## DomValente (15 Jul 2007)

bodgermatic":jincwlwu said:


> I believe it says in some book somewhere:
> 
> "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. When I became a man, I put away childish things"



Think that was Corinthians, which in turn was in a well known book, but nothing like Harry Potter. :roll: 

I think it is our duty to retain a part of the child within us, sort of keeps everything in focus.

Dom


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## Paul Chapman (15 Jul 2007)

DomValente":2j4fxk26 said:


> I think it is our duty to retain a part of the child within us, sort of keeps everything in focus.



Well, we're doing our bit, Dom, by still playing with toys - I mean tools :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## motownmartin (15 Jul 2007)

Smudger":3hflbjgi said:


> ByronBlack":3hflbjgi said:
> 
> 
> > I'm really staggered that any adult would waste their time reading Harry Potter
> ...


I don't think you read that very well Smudger :?


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## ByronBlack (15 Jul 2007)

guy's, this is a good debate, lets not it get personal.

Dom, this is worrying, you again make a point that I agree with  about retaining some child-like qualities to remain a focus. I think i'm sometimes like that with regards to wood-working, i'm very new to it, and learning all the time, and it's with a child-like fascination I have when I get a square joint, or a good dovetail that drives me on.

But bodger - I agree in some respects to you, 'some' harry pooter fans are very evangelical about them and insist that we should all read them and benefit from them, I seem to remember a hippy like character on Richard and Judy or This morning banging on about the social 'need' for us to all take an interest in HP. But then on the other hand, there are similar nut-jobs who assume Da-Vinci code is factual and real.


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## mudman (15 Jul 2007)

I saw the first film and realised I would never want to read the books. The next films confirmed this for me. The plotlines are so weak and often non-sensical that I could never enjoy the books that I'm told the films accurately reflect.

Currently on holiday in Florida (small gloat?) and realising that I haven't been reading anything but non-fiction for a loooong time I brought Tolkien's The Children of Hurin with me. Have enjoyed it immensely sitting on the balcony with a glass of wine and a big cigar.

Talking of getting children to read, I believe that JK's books actually turned my eldest off of reading. An avid reader before, he started reading them and gave up shortly before the end of the fifth citing bordem and hasn't read anything since.


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## Slim (15 Jul 2007)

Barry, the films are not a patch on the books. As with any film adaptation, huge chunks of the plot are left out in an effort to fit it into 2 hours. Exactly the same happened with Lord of the Rings. Although the films were about 9 hours long, there was probably only about 50% of the content of the book included.

I really don't think you could possibly judge the book on the quality of the film adaptation.


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## DomValente (16 Jul 2007)

mudman":1066piya said:


> Talking of getting children to read, I believe that JK's books actually turned my eldest off of reading. An avid reader before, he started reading them and gave up shortly before the end of the fifth citing bordem and hasn't read anything since.



Hmmm, would your eldest son be in his early teens by any chance.
Seem to recall discovering there was another gender on the planet when I was that age  

Dom


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## Anonymous (16 Jul 2007)

lord of the rings- I was just so grateful that at the end of the third film that it was all over, 9 hours of hobbits, elves, trolls, talking goobliedy gook with a story that just goes on and on, why waste all that time when you get the same thing on the forum ... :lol:


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## ByronBlack (16 Jul 2007)

Senior - i've always imagined you as a wizened gnarled dwarf  I agree that the films are far too long.


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## White House Workshop (16 Jul 2007)

I tried reading 'The Satanic Verses' many years ago to try and see for myself what all the fuss was about - and gave up after slogging through about a third of the book. Talk about heavy going. Worse than Dickens at his most flowery! I still don't know what's got a few Muslims upset... :roll:


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## Vormulac (16 Jul 2007)

I think there are just too many people in this world who aren't happy unless they've got something to be outraged about. And too many stupid people willing to listen to them. :roll:


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## Gill (16 Jul 2007)

Given the choice of _The Lord of the Rings_ and any Harry Potter novel as opposed to _The Satanic Verses_ and Virginia Woolf's _To The Lighthouse_, I know which selection I'd make  ! 

Is it against the Geneva Convention to inflict torture by literature? It should be!

Gill


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## Bodrighy (16 Jul 2007)

I read on average about 4 books a week and usually have at least 2 on the go at one time. They can be as caried as Harry Potter and Gullivers Travels (not a children's book by the way but a political satirte that got the author in a lot of trouble) I love Clive Cussler etc for escapism but also read Tolstoy, Dickens, Can't stand the Austens. What the heck life is short so I read whatever I can get my hands on (Except newspapers....never get one) The fact that we threw our TV out ten years ago because it was so much rubbish gives me time. What is a bad book anyway? 
Pete


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## Paul.J (16 Jul 2007)

Like a lot of other adults/parents.
I started reading Harry Potter books to my kids.They lost interest,been girls i suppose but i got hooked.They have got even better as the series progresses.
The films aren't a patch on the books.
This series of books are the only ones i've read in years.
Just goes to show i'm a big kid at heart  
Paul.J.


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## Paul Chapman (16 Jul 2007)

Bodrighy":3nj2ihlf said:


> (Except newspapers....never get one)



Try "Private Eye" - it's a good laugh and you get to find out what's really going on :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## StevieB (16 Jul 2007)

I have read them, mainly because SWMBO gets them - as a primary school teacher she needs to know what the children are on about! 

They are certainly not the best thing I have ever read, and not the sort of book I would read more than once, just out of curiosity. Certainly wouldnt queue up at midnight th get a copy. If they get children reading however then that can only be a good thing.

Steve.


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## DomValente (16 Jul 2007)

Bodrighy":2f9ttfdu said:


> What is a bad book anyway?
> Pete



The answer is I suspect what was told to me by a producer of wines.
"_ There are no bad wines, it is the case that some are just better than others_"


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## Anonymous (16 Jul 2007)

ByronBlack":28go85wa said:


> Senior - i've always imagined you as a wizened gnarled dwarf  I agree that the films are far too long.



:lol: :lol: I really can't imagine where you got that image from, if I had to pick a literary character I resembled ...... possibly scrooge :shock:

Honestly, 9 hours of Lord of the rings was a real endurance, by the end I really was done in, mind you I read the book and felt exactly the same, I think that took me about 6 months, bit slow on the books (that goes for accounts as well)


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## Russell (16 Jul 2007)

I read them to my kids as bed time stories and by the time we got to book 4 I was hooked and reading a head, got the final book ordered to pick up at midnight on Friday. I don't care what anyone thinks I enjoyed reading them and that's all that matters.


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## Smudger (16 Jul 2007)

Gill":7fvboa0s said:


> Given the choice of _The Lord of the Rings_ and any Harry Potter novel as opposed to _The Satanic Verses_ and Virginia Woolf's _To The Lighthouse_, I know which selection I'd make  !
> 
> Is it against the Geneva Convention to inflict torture by literature? It should be!
> 
> Gill



I think I would be prepared to bite my own face off rather than read 'To The Lighthouse' again...


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## Anonymous (16 Jul 2007)

War and peace is another, I've started it so many times but there are so many characters that by chapter 3 I usually am so confused that I have to start again.


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## woodbloke (16 Jul 2007)

Paul Chapman":4ku9ow54 said:


> Bodrighy":4ku9ow54 said:
> 
> 
> > (Except newspapers....never get one)
> ...



Agree - off topic a bit.... wonder what it'll say about a certain blonde haired politician going for a high profile post in London :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (17 Jul 2007)

woodbloke":3i17ejet said:


> Agree - off topic a bit.... wonder what it'll say about a certain blonde haired politician going for a high profile post in London :lol:



At least with Boris we'll get a few good laughs - the others just make you want to cry (or emigrate)  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## ByronBlack (17 Jul 2007)

Boris would be great for mayor! He would have free access to bouncy castles, and allow bicycles right of way anywhere in the city 

Atleast he's a real human unlike that snivvelling toad that is livingstone, never a more snidey self serving guttersnipe has been in such a position of power in our capital than him. Edit: In my purely uneducated and humble opinion.


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## woodbloke (17 Jul 2007)

BB wrote -


> Atleast he's a real human unlike that snivvelling toad that is livingstone, never a more snidey self serving guttersnipe has been in such a position of power in out capital than him


Steady on BB....liable to feel the tingle of the lash from the Mods :lol: - Rob


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## ByronBlack (17 Jul 2007)

Sorry.. it's like a red rag to a bull when the esteemed right honorable Mr Livingstone is near a conversation.

Back to harry potter - he's such a smug little so and so aint he! :lol:


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## woodbloke (17 Jul 2007)

Talking of HP, we went thru' a very dodgy patch 8-[ with my daughter a few years ago (she's _fantastic_ now, so no worries on that score) and she cut herself on her forearm quite deeply :shock: and I had to get her into hospital sharpish. The only way that the medicos (and they were great) could fix it was to turn the original 40mm cut, under a general anaesthetic, into the shape of a letter Z, so she now has the mark of Zorro on her forearm and not HP's Z on her forehead : :lol: - Rob...who'd let CZJ from the film mark him at _any_ time


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## ByronBlack (17 Jul 2007)

Rob, pleased to hear your daughters good, what did she think of the 'Z' scar?

And excuse my ignorance, but who or what is CZJ?


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## woodbloke (17 Jul 2007)

BB - Megs is quite proud of her scar, over the years its all but disappeared and she's not really bothered about it now nor is she self conscious in any way. Catherine Zeta........ :wink: - Rob


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## ByronBlack (17 Jul 2007)

now your talking! Didn't realise she was in the film. She was staggerinly gorgeous in entrapment.







Very athletic girl.


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## woodbloke (17 Jul 2007)

BB - now I'm just wondering to myself how flat and straight those laser lines are and if there's any way of testing them for straightness as it's an interesting and quite absorbing technical thing to do but...... she'd have to stay in that position while measurements were taken :roll: - Rob


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## DomValente (17 Jul 2007)

Yeh, like you could keep a steady hand  

Dom


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## ByronBlack (17 Jul 2007)

That image wasn't actually taken from the film Entrapment, but instead it was a mock for Black & Deckers handy wall mounted laser line shelf putter-upperer. The things companies will go to sell their shoddy goods


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## Gill (17 Jul 2007)

Why don't you guys just get yourselves a scrollsaw and cut these sorts of pictures out of wood? Then when the missus starts asking you what you're drooling over, you can tell her truthfully that it's just a bit of woodwork.

Tch... I dunno :roll: .

Gill


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## DomValente (17 Jul 2007)

Sorry Gill,  

Wishful thinking :? 

Dom


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## Anonymous (17 Jul 2007)

I've read copiously most of my 43 years, in fact when I was the age HP books are aimed at, I read about 4-5 paperbackls a week due to a 1.5-hour bus journey to school. I was transfered to another place or time every day and the bus journeys simply flew by.

However, I read the first HP book to my daughter chapter-by-chapter each evening at bed time and was left unimpressed. Read about 60 pages of the second one and simply left it there.
Since then, my daughter has read them all (many times)

HP has done a lot for reading as a past time, (the best past time ever) and has hopefully dragged people away from the TV (the worst past time ever), but they are not (in my opinion) very well written books although the storylines are imaginitive, if a little thin.

I have been dragged to the cinema (not quite screaming) to see every film though :roll: 

I still read all the time (read 'Almost French' by Sarah Turnbull yesterday), just not children's books :wink: 


smudger this is not 'backlash in which some people rubbish anything which is popular ' , a simple statement of fact that i do not find Rowling's writing very good.
In fact, I would turn your statement around and say that it is a sad aspect of modern life and of our society that everyone feels the need to 'jump on a bandwagon'. I'm sure many kids feel isolated if they do not say that they have read all HP books - a bit like not having the latest mobile phone.


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## Vormulac (17 Jul 2007)

Hi Tony,

I am curious, what is it that you find lacking concerning Rowling's writing? I'm genuinely interested as I read a lot, I have read all the HP books and never really been struck by the poor quality of the writing (and I've read some *real* dross! :lol: ), although this is something that is alluded to by most of the HP critics.

Cheers,

V.


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## Anonymous (17 Jul 2007)

Hi V

In all honesty, i read the 1st HP book when it came out which must have been the best part of 10 years ago and so I am a bit sketchy on details and could not point to specifics after all this time. Also, although i am pretty well read, I am far from an expert on literature and definitely not qualified to criticise JKR's work - I just didn't enjoy the book, but do appreciate that they are great kids stories (my daughters love them).

Basically, (from what I remember) I found the language and structure to be very simplistic with quite a linear and unsophisticated plot which was clearly aimed at young children (I like a sophisticated and complex plot that keeps me guessing and thinking - sort of engaged with the book). I did not feel 'engaged' with the book nor 'whisked away' to another place as I often am with other books. I was very surprised when adults raved about this and subsequent books as they are clearly not the target audience. 
Having said that, I can understand how one who does not read much might well be drawn into a decent story of good vs evil - with good prevailing of course  :wink: 

I don't know if it helps in any way, but one of my all time favourite books must be James Clavell's Shogun. Possibly if you read that, you'd understand where I am coming from?


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## StevieB (17 Jul 2007)

Shogun is a fantastic book! I was sadly disappointed that the others in the series were not set in the same time period to be honest - I never found them as engaging. Highly recommend Shogun if you want a good book though, even though the size of it can be slightly off-putting!

Steve.


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## Anonymous (17 Jul 2007)

StevieB":3hvbgtt8 said:


> Shogun is a fantastic book! I was sadly disappointed that the others in the series were not set in the same time period to be honest - I never found them as engaging. Highly recommend Shogun if you want a good book though, even though the size of it can be slightly off-putting!
> 
> Steve.



Absolutely agree Steve - I liked all the others, but not as much as Shogun an his last one, Whirlwind (set in Iran) was another masterpiece IMO


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## DomValente (17 Jul 2007)

Well I started this debate, without realising it and I have to agree that JKR's writing is bad, the grammar is not great either, something that is usually the problem with American(sorry guys) novelists of late.
The only good thing about her books is that with a little effort you can disappear into another world for a brief period and to me that is utterly relaxing .

Dom


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## Slim (17 Jul 2007)

How come this thread has received more votes in 2 days than the competition has in 17 :?:


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## Vormulac (17 Jul 2007)

Thanks Tony, I do kind of agree you to be honest, the first book was extremely simplistic. It did occur to me though, having read all of them within a reasonably short period of time (I only started reading them after the fourth one came out) that the style of writing changes with each one, as the main characters gradually grow up, the plots become darker and the style of the books reflects that too - if anything that's one of the things that keeps me coming back to them.
They'll never be my all time favourites (I think Brian Lumley's 'Necroscope' saga still holds that accolade and Iain Banks' 'Whit' is still the one that gets re-read the most often) but I certainly do enjoy reading them at the time.
For what it's worth, Peter F. Hamilton gives them all a darn good run for their money in my opinion and I haven't read any James Clavell in years! I may have to dig out Shogun again now dammit! 

V.


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## johnjin (17 Jul 2007)

I have just seen this thread and have read through all five pages of it. I am a huge Harry Potter fan and have been captivated by this series for about six years. The first one I read was the second book just to see what all the fuss was about. I was enthralled and rushed out to buy the other three. Book one was definitely the worst of the series and I am glad it was not the first one I read. Childrens books they might be but if that is the case so are many of the so called classics that are around. At the age of 58 and a life long reader I have read many of them including all of Dickens, Sir Walter Scott, Tolkien and many many others. I read all fiction for the escapism they give and not for the education. I am not looking for hidden meanings just reading for the pure pleasure of it. From Toad of Toad Hall to a Tale of two cities. Until I picked up a Rowling book I would have said that Enid Blyton was probably the world's greatest writer of childrens novels and I still read them at odd times today. However Rowling has taken over that title in my opinion and not least for single handedly turning around the lack of interest in children for reading.
This is more than enough reason for her to take this title and get very rich as a result. Some have mentioned Cussler, who while being one of my favorite authors with his Dirk Pitt series is also a very shallow writer as far as the plot is concerned. Tom Clancy seems to do a lot better. And I would suggest never ever judge any book that you haven't read by watching the film of the same name. 
One thing is for sure I will be reading The Deathly Hallows this Saturday

All the Best

John


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## Paul.J (17 Jul 2007)

*Slimjim81 wrote*
How come this thread has received more votes in 2 days than the competition has in 17 
I was thinking the same Simon,but thought i wouldn't point it out,as been one of the competitors,didn't want to be seen as moaning :roll: 
Just shows how popular Mr Potter is  
Paul.J.


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## ByronBlack (17 Jul 2007)

Vormulac - nice to see a fellow Necroscope fan on the boards! They are without doubt my most favourite and loved books that i've ever read - even more so than Anne Rice who is also a big favourite of mine.

Have you ever considered the simularities between the main character of Brian Lumley's Necroscope: Harry Keogh and our beloved/loathed Harry Potter.. both young kids when they discover their talents, both have major issues with their parentage, both continually deal with evil, both have a very strong connection with their nemisis (and if i'm right, then the final harry potter will be even more similar..).

I've often wondered with JKR read necroscope and thought about making a 'nice' version of the hero - also named Harry!


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## Alf (18 Jul 2007)

For those folks who don't rush to look at Matt of a morning, thought this might amuse:


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## Paul Chapman (18 Jul 2007)

So Putin won :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Green (18 Jul 2007)

I was installing a sign last year when a woman a woman fell flat on her face at the bottom of my ladders, it was JK Rowling. She was busy looking up at me fitting the sign and tripped over.  

Thats all I have to say.


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## Vormulac (19 Jul 2007)

Getting ogled by a multi multi multi millionairess eh, Green? You could be sorted there, mate :wink:


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## Benchwayze (20 Jul 2007)

My daughter (in her thirties) has read a few of these books. She says they all contain the same theme. The eternal struggle between good and evil. Just like Tolkien and Star Wars. My daughter became bored with Potter. She claimed the only variations were characters who are slightly different, or who grow a little older. 

I tried to read one, but I found basic errors that should never have escaped a good editor's blue-pencil. I gave up after a few paragraphs. 

I like to think Rowling's books encourage young persons to read more, but they might also teach bad habits in English. Not that I am an expert, but I do try. 

I am afraid that while there is money to be made from HP, Rowling will continue to write about him. This little rumour we heard about HP dying, might have been a 'lead-line' to test the waters for demand. So Harry Potter books, with their static themes, 'fantasmagorical' plots and some shoddy writing, will continue to be published and sell. Just like James Bond! (And Dirk Pitt! Lol!) 

Yours in fun 
John :lol:


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## Alf (20 Jul 2007)

Having read this concerning the inability of publishers to spot the nose on their face, I think hoping for a good editor with the blue pencil is probably in vain. 

Cheers, Alf


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## wonky (16 Aug 2007)

i've just finished it and thought it was a bit long especailly as he gets killed in the first chapter. Only joking!
i thought it was great, i don't know about bad writing or not, but i liked it.
I looked at the bit that alf put about Jane Austin as well. Do you think its because the first one was written about 200 years ago so might not be in fashion now and the ones who looked at it thought it old fashioned?

confused (maybe not .com anymore)


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## Losos (16 Aug 2007)

Smudger":27vgn2w5 said:


> There's always a sort of backlash in which some people rubbish anything which is popular - not sure why that is, but they are probably making more of a statement about themselves than what they are distancing themselves from.
> 
> Rowling actually writes very well, firm characterisation, strong plots and great themes (good v evil - nothing stronger!). Her style is unexceptional but sound, rather cinematic in later books, which appeals to younger readers in particular. She has a very developed vision of the continuing story, which adds to the interest.
> 
> ...



Well said - I agree with you all the way. Dom asked us we read Harry Potter, *well my answer is NO but why should I denigrate people who do?*

I think JK Rowling *has to be admired, and her publishers too*. They have found a 'market need' and filled it. A few years back I worked with a young female graduate who was in the process of getting her Chartered Accountants qualification, she was one of the most intelligent people I've met in recent years, *she read every Harry Potter book*, what's wrong with that? As I say I don't read them but like Smudger says, they are about good & evil, they encourage youngsters to read, and they don't (So I'm told) have blatant sex, violence, or crudities in them. How can that be bad. If you don't like them.........fine, but why knock people who do?


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## StevieB (17 Aug 2007)

No sex granted, but the violence is there. Curses that cause excruciating pain, curses that kill, the climax to the last book was a death and the climax to this, indeed the premise of the entire series is a battle to the death between Harry and Voldemort. Neither can survive while the other lives is I believe the phrase that is commonly used in the books.

While the violence may be masked to a degree by the fantasy nature of the plot, it is manifest throughout the novels. From the very start when Harry's parents are murdered until the final battle. Is it any worse than the violence in LOTR for example? No, but then that was not aimed at children especially AFAIK.

I am neither condoning or supporting its use in the series, merely highlighting its presence.

Steve.


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