# Building windows



## John Smith (19 Jan 2010)

Back in September 2008 I asked for advice regarding the best method/timber for building windows. Since then due to work commitments and other jobs in the workshop the window project was put on hold. 

Now the windows are back at the top of the jobs to do list so Im going to try my first WIP thread.

I have 18 windows to build, some box sash and some casement types and will be doing them in batches, starting with eight box sash's.

I will be using Iroko for the cills and sapele for the boxes and sashes. They will be double glazed with a slim DG units probably from Histoglass.

Here are a couple of pictures of the first batch of timber delivered to the machine room in the workshop












Tomorrow i will start to dimension the timber, more pictures to follow

John


----------



## joiner_sim (19 Jan 2010)

You're using Iroko for the cills? I would have thought that sapele would be better.


----------



## TEO (19 Jan 2010)

Hey John,
looking forward to your WIP, I've thought about making windows, got offered a big job a little while ago but then decided that discretion was the better part of V and passed the work on. So, very interested to see how it goes.
Thanks,
T


----------



## Jake (19 Jan 2010)

joiner_sim":38d32c1p said:


> You're using Iroko for the cills? I would have thought that sapele would be better.



Iroko is way more durable, so presumably that's why.


----------



## John Smith (19 Jan 2010)

Hello Joiner-Sim

I think Iroko is more durable than Sapele. As the Cill is more susceptible to rot (although the windows will be maintained properly as they are my own) I thought this was the best way to go. Is this a mistake? 

Hello Teo,

Watch this space, I will post pictures regularly, mistakes included.


----------



## oddsocks (19 Jan 2010)

John, perfect timing as I am thinking of making my own as well,s o will watch with interest on this. Rather than hijack your WIP I'll start a new one to ask my questions (of which there are many!)

Please share the designs and thoughts behind them.

Dave


----------



## OPJ (19 Jan 2010)

I agree with Jake; iroko is more durable than sapele and, therefore, a better option for the cills. I would be interested to know why you are also using sapele though, instead of just the one species...? Is it because of price? Availability? Grain?

I can't see anything wrong with that approach. If anything, sapele is a bit easier to work and the dust is, of course, less hazardous.


----------



## John Smith (20 Jan 2010)

Hello Olly

I am using Sapele for some of the reasons you mention, it machines better than Iroko and I want to keep Iroko dust to a mimimum, having alread a couple of years ago suffered its effects. I was ill for a week through neglecting to take proper precautions!

John


----------



## John Smith (20 Jan 2010)

Today I cut the long lenghts of timber down to required lengths and started machining. There are piles of timber all over the workshop now. I have included some pictures of my workshop as I have lurked on here for a while but never posted pictures before this thread.

The machine room (bottom floor)







The bench room (top floor)











You can see some of the Sapele on the floor.

The Planer/thicknesser is on a mobile base and I set the machines up like this to work






That way I can do the initial ripping of wide boards on the Band Saw before planing/thicknessing and then the final ripping to width on the Table Saw with the PT pushed clear






The next pictures shows one of four Cills I machined when I first decided to build my own windows. The timber is Iroko.






Lots more machining tomorrow

John


----------



## Chris Knight (20 Jan 2010)

What a crappy little shop - I'm amazed you have the cojones to show it to us! :shock:

I'm prepared to do a sweet deal on a swap however...


----------



## chippy1970 (20 Jan 2010)

Nice workshop but whoever made and hung your stable door didn't know what they were doing :wink: 

The cross braces are the wrong way round :lol: 

Sorry I just had to find fault somewhere in that immaculate workshop


----------



## John Smith (20 Jan 2010)

chippy1970":398jxq8s said:


> Nice workshop but whoever made and hung your stable door didn't know what they were doing :wink:
> 
> The cross braces are the wrong way round :lol:
> 
> Sorry I just had to find fault somewhere in that immaculate workshop



Yep, the door is another job on a long list of things to do :?


----------



## billybuntus (20 Jan 2010)

chippy1970":1a5rz772 said:


> Nice workshop but whoever made and hung your stable door didn't know what they were doing :wink:
> 
> The cross braces are the wrong way round :lol:
> 
> Sorry I just had to find fault somewhere in that immaculate workshop



How are they the wrong way round?

It doesn't 'look' right to me for some reason but I don't know why.


----------



## Anonymous (20 Jan 2010)

billybuntus":1vg83h49 said:


> How are they the wrong way round?
> 
> It doesn't 'look' right to me for some reason but I don't know why.



I think they should be going from bottom left to top right.

Always good to pick fault in fantastic workshops.

Dave


----------



## chippy1970 (20 Jan 2010)

billybuntus":y94bcyzx said:


> chippy1970":y94bcyzx said:
> 
> 
> > Nice workshop but whoever made and hung your stable door didn't know what they were doing :wink:
> ...



They should always go up and away from the hinges ie hinges are on the left then they should go from bottom left to top right.


----------



## mtt.tr (20 Jan 2010)

The sill looks brilliant.

and your machine shops is just as nice


----------



## Steve Maskery (21 Jan 2010)

I didn't like to say, but....

The braces are, indeed, the wrong way round. The idea of a brace is that it stops the door from sagging. It props it up. That means it has to go up from the supported (hinge) side to the unsupported (lock) side. Yours, I'm afraid to say, does the opposite, so the braces are doing nothing at all.

Fantastic shop in every other respect, though!
S


----------



## John Smith (21 Jan 2010)

Thanks for the comments and please feel free to highlight anything.
The door is not one of mine and will be changed in time.


----------



## Loz_S (21 Jan 2010)

I can't see a moulder in your spotless workshop. Would you mind explaining how you managed to do such a good job machining your cill? It certaily doesn't look like it has been done by hand! Did you make some sort of angled jig for your router to run on or is it multiple parts?


----------



## John Smith (21 Jan 2010)

Hello Loz-S

The cills are single piece. I used a combination of router and table saw (with a jig) to rough them out and then hand planed to a finish. I have more to make for the rest of the windows and will post pictures of the process over the next couple of weeks.

John


----------



## John Smith (21 Jan 2010)

I didn't get to spend as much time in the workshop as I had hoped today but did start to machine the pieces for the first four sash boxes.







I have started to play with sketch up recently although the detail and final dimensions are not correct yet here are some sketches of the type of window Im building first.
















I have done some research on sash windows seals and am planning to use a two part parting bead






The u section fits into a routed grove in the pulley stile






and the parting bead snaps into that






This seems like a good idea to me. Does anyone have any feedback?

I also plan to use some weather pile seals which will be fitted into a routed grove in the staff bead and meeting rails






John


----------



## agbagb (21 Jan 2010)

Hi John,

I don't know if you've come across this thread. https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums...postorder=asc&highlight=sash+windows&start=15 

I've got different criteria on the design I'm working on so a lot of the details are different. eg. 24mm glazing, near invisible seals and all redwood construction, but there might be some useful info there.

I'm looking forward to seeing the glazing method you choose. And more pictures of your workshop just so I can keep my dreams alive .


----------



## John Smith (21 Jan 2010)

Hello agbagb

That thread was actually my own from when I asked for advice originally, where does the time go? :shock: 

Trying to choose the right/best glazing method has been the biggest dilemma. I have looked at standard DG units, vacuum units and slim DG units.
The standard are to wide and require to big a rebate for what I am trying to achieve.
The vaccum glazing units which are new to the market here are very slim but the asthetics are not right, the 'pillars' which hold the two panes apart by just .25mm are vissible as small dots.
I have lastly looked at two types of slim DG units and have opted for a unit from Histoglass which I *think* is the only product available here that fully comply's with BS EN 1279 (parts 1-6), it reqiures a 10mm rebate.

John


----------



## agbagb (21 Jan 2010)

John, It certainly has been a while, but rome wasn't built in a day either :wink: 

I ended up with the standard 24mm units for cost, simplicity of supply and in the field history. It has taken some lateral thinking to fit then into nearly trad size sections, they got approval of my personal conservation officer (the wife). 

Off up the garage now to make some dust.

All the best with them 
Andy


----------



## agbagb (21 Jan 2010)

pressed the wrong button ...doh


----------



## joiner_sim (21 Jan 2010)

I use the two part plastic parting bead and it is very good, as the U bit stays in the groove, if you need to remove the parting bead you don't end up damaging your wooden groove, which is the main reason I use the two-part stuff. A tip with this stuff though, is to put the U bit in the groove ASAP, before paint or staining, or if you will not be assembling for a while after you've grooved your stiles. As the groove tends to curl the stiles slightly and makes it incredibly hard to tap in later. The actual bead it self can be tapped in whenever, as it will fit into the plastic.

The brush seal you have, is one piece, You can buy it also in two parts. plastic bit to fit in the groove, and then brush that just slides in, makes it easier to paint or stain.


----------



## John Smith (21 Jan 2010)

Thanks Joiner-Sim, just the kind of tips I'm looking for

John


----------



## John Smith (23 Jan 2010)

I finished machining the components for the first four sash boxes today, they are stacked on the table








The next stage is to use the router and router table to shape them and to make the rebate for the parting bead.
I will also cut the pocket to provide for access to the weights once the windows have been installed












Can anyone recommend a supplier of sash weights and pulleys?

John


----------



## joiner_sim (23 Jan 2010)

Looks like you've progressed well so far, as requested, here's two suppliers that the company I work for use and I'm happy to recommend...

http://www.westwardbuildingservices.com

http://www.mightonproducts.com

Hope that helps you out.


----------



## JonnyD (23 Jan 2010)

I usually use mighton for the sash hardware and weights usually the cast steel as its cheaper although sometimes with double glazed sash windows lead is the only option due to the weight of the sash and the space available in the box.

http://www.mightonproducts.com/

The windows are looking good. You are doing the cill section slightly different to how i do them I usually groove the cill first to take the pully stiles and then machine the slopes. The groove on the inside of the box I make tapered so that the pully stile can be wedged in for a tight fit. 

cheers

Jon


----------



## joiner_sim (23 Jan 2010)

JonnyD":3l2w535r said:


> The windows are looking good. You are doing the cill section slightly different to how i do them I usually groove the cill first to take the pully stiles and then machine the slopes.



The 5 degree bevel I usually put on the cill gets done first, then I trench the stiles into the cill. I usually aim for a tight fit, if its too tight I just run the back of the stile quickly backwards off the bandsaw to fit it in. If its too loose I just wedge it in. Glue and screw.

With regards to cutting the pockets.... I had this debate on here a while ago. I just cut out the stile at 45 degree angles, and fit the pocket in between the mitres. It cannot move anywhere, except shrink. The debate was that it _should_ be cut in square and haunched. It can still shrink. But what happens years later when you need to get the pocket out with years of paint, it could very well be stuck. My method you can tap the one end and it should pop out the other end. Once again, it still horses for courses though!


----------



## John Smith (24 Jan 2010)

Thanks again for the infomation and tips. I will have to use lead for the weights due to the weight of the glazing units.


----------



## agbagb (24 Jan 2010)

Try Heaps, Arnold and Heaps Ltd. for the lead.


----------



## John Smith (30 Jan 2010)

Slow progress this week as I have been away working for a few days.
I continued to build the first four sash boxes so most of the machines and the router table have been used.

For the tenons I make the cheek cuts on the band saw






Then hand saw close to the scribed shoulder line and use a paring chisel to clean up the shoulder
















The mortises are cut on the mortise machine






This is one of the boxes being dry assembled











And this is it complete with the cill






Tomorrow I will be cutting the holes for the pockets and routing the rebates for the parting beads.

John


----------



## joiner_sim (31 Jan 2010)

Hi,
I can understand why you have used tenons in the fascia boards, but I think it isn't really needed. The fascia's only need to be 16mm thick, and can be nailed straight onto the stiles. Although I do appreciate it will be a very strong job once done.

Don't forget to rebate your fascia boards so that your stile covers can sit in nice and flush. Also, might be an idea to cut a slot in the head either side for your wag tails. Before you assemble the box.


----------



## John Smith (31 Jan 2010)

Hello Joiner Sim, I will be routing the outer and inner linings (facia's) to fit 6mm ply as the stile covers and had thought about running a rebate down the centre of the back of the pulley stile for the parting slip (wag tail).

I am interested that you use 16mm thick facia's, what thickness would you recommend for the pulley stiles? I have used 22mm for the facia's and 30mm for the stiles.

John


----------



## JonnyD (31 Jan 2010)

A lot of the sizes are dictated by the size of the reveal the window fits into. I usually make the pulley stiles between 22-25mm thick the outer lining 15mm thick and the inner one 20mm thick to fit the staff bead. 

windows are looking good.

cheers

jon


----------



## John Smith (31 Jan 2010)

Thanks Jon, I have maybe over cooked it a bit with the dimensions but thought that worth while because they (the first batch at least) are sizeable windows.

John


----------



## superunknown (31 Jan 2010)

I have nothing constructive to add, sorry. I just wanted to say your workshop looks great and must a superb place to spend your working day.


----------



## John Smith (31 Jan 2010)

Thanks Superunknown, the workshop was deralict when my wife and I moved here three years ago so it does give me a lot of satisfaction spending time in there. My wife is still not totally convinced of why we had to refurb the workshop before the house :lol: so Im hoping the windows go some way to convinsing her.

John


----------



## agbagb (1 Feb 2010)

"Rebate down the back of the pulley stile for the wag tail" ? It has to hang free for you to instal the weights.


----------



## joiner_sim (1 Feb 2010)

About 22mm for the stiles would be about right. I'd go for 32mm thick stiles on a spiral balance sash. You want to cut a slit in the head for the wag tails. Then slip the wag tail in loose, with a nail half way thru the wag tail, then it just hangs off the head. As its just been said, you need a loose wag tail to install the weights. On a double box sash, the stile cover can be trenched in between the head and cill, but the two wag tails still need to be loose.


----------



## John Smith (1 Feb 2010)

Thanks Agbagb and Joiner_Sim what you say makes perfect sense and that is what I will do.
Because the lead weights are going to be big due to the weight of the glazing units I had thought about having just one large pocket on each stile to access both weights each side, would that be normal practice?

John


----------



## joiner_sim (1 Feb 2010)

Yes you only need one pocket per stile.


----------



## agbagb (1 Feb 2010)

One pocket per side is the norm, in the bottom sash side of the pulley stile, only way I've ever seen. 

Top sash goes in first, pull the wagtail over and fit the weight, then let the wagtail hang for fitting the bottom sash weight.

Check out the geometory of the pocket length to ensure the weights can be fitted in. If your lead weights have a through hole you can cut them in half so they are articulated when threaded on the cord. By doing this you can have a smaller pocket.

You can see the pocket size I ended up with here http://slidingsash.blogspot.com/2009/01/fitting-sashes.html


----------



## Mr Ed (1 Feb 2010)

Very tidy work. Personally I'd just buy the windows, but I'm sure you'll end up with a better end product this way.

Ed


----------



## John Smith (7 Feb 2010)

I decided to cut large pockets in each pulley stile so access to the weights will not be a problem.












The pocket covers were cut to be a snug fit and planed flush











The rebate for the parting bead channel was routed out. Because the pocket hole is cut wider than normal the parting bead will help to hold it in place and I am able to insert two screws which will be concealed behind the channel











I have also cut the mortises for the pulleys











The hardware and weights have also been delivered this week from Mighton Products (thanks for the tip)






John


----------



## John Smith (7 Feb 2010)

I got to spend a bit of time in the workshop today and started to assemble the first of four sash boxes. I also primed the first cill with aluminium oxide primer.






Painting is my least favourite job, Im thinking of one coat of primer (maybe two on the cills), two under coats and one top coat. Any comments/advice would be welcome.


----------



## joiner_sim (7 Feb 2010)

I like the way you have cut the pocket and concealed the screws. I just hope that such a large pocket does not weaken the stile.

Am I right in thinking that you are painting all the lovely hardwood!?!?! It will last for ages, but if I was doing it as a painted finished, I really wouldn't have bothered with some of the things you have done. i.e. mortice and tennoning fascia boards...


----------



## John Smith (7 Feb 2010)

Hello Joiner_Sim, The pockets look a bit bigger on that picture than they are because of the angle I took the picture at but the stiles are, as commented on before, thicker than would be considered normal. That coupled with the haunched joint to the outer and inner linings make for a very strong frame.

The boxes and sashes will have a paint finish. The choice of timber and construction method is an effort to make them long lasting, I also enjoy the process of hand jointing. I understand in a commercial shop this would not be appropriate but if I was trying to make a living from my workshop Ive no doubt I would be very hungry by now :lol:

John


----------



## agbagb (8 Feb 2010)

Have a think through the final assembly. Will you have to fit the parting bead after both sashes have been fitted? It could get a bit tricky.
The build is looking good

Andy


----------



## John Smith (8 Feb 2010)

Its a good point Agbagb and one which I did consider. I will have to fit the parting bead once both sashes are hung but I think with the staff bead yet to be installed I will be able to swing the lower sash inwards slightly to give me access to the parting bead channel.

I notice from your blog that you fixed the frame in with just four screws, one in each corner, did that work out ok?

Joiner_Sim can I ask how you normally fix your frames in?

Thanks John


----------



## agbagb (8 Feb 2010)

I'm interested to know how others fix the frames in as well.

The four screw have worked on mine but it wasn't exactly slick (more of bodge). It's something I didn't put much thought to. By the time I'd ripped the old window out there wasn't much time left for thinking.

Glad you got the final assembly thought through.


----------



## scholar (8 Feb 2010)

I have been following this with interest. I like the substantial design of the box.

It is not clear to me how you are fitting the parting slip/wagtail. Given the wide pocket you have cut, could you have a fixed parting slip which would seem superior to the usual flappy one that in my experience can cause some problems (thinking that square weights might be more prone to fouling)?

cheers


----------



## John Smith (9 Feb 2010)

Hello Scholar, My intension originally was to have a fixed parting slip/wagtail. Following advice on here I have decided to have a loose wagtail as even with a wide pocket it will be usefull to be able to push to wagtail to one side. As has been pointed out it is normal to slot the frame head and hang the wagtail with a nail or pin but I will have to use a different method as I cut short the frame head, as can be seen here...






I will make up something to hang the wagtail from.


----------



## John Smith (9 Feb 2010)

I spent some time today correcting a mistake I made yesterday. I decided as Im building so many windows that I should invest in some more tools... so I bought one of these






Normally I build furniture and generally sand by hand so I have never owned a power sander. Keen to try it out I decided to sand the first assembled frame prior to priming. In a matter of seconds I managed to ruin one of the frame edges by being careless and much to aggressive, so this morning has been spent routing a rebate along the edge and scribing in a new piece

















The new piece glued and clamped. Normally I would use clamping blocks but the clamps were just big enough to span the frame






John


----------



## Steve Maskery (9 Feb 2010)

I do wish I knew what you guys were all on about. This is a side of woodworking about which I know absolutely nothing. I've made casement windows before now, but never a box sash. Can you point to a good primer on the subject, please?
Thanks
Steve


----------



## Jake (9 Feb 2010)

Welcome to the ferociously effective world of the Rotex. 

For finish sanding, you want to hit the button and use it in RO kitten mode.

Not that you haven't worked that out already the hard way!


----------



## John Smith (9 Feb 2010)

Hello Steve, Im not sure I can, Im learning as I go. The only reference I have used apart from advice on here is a book called Carpentry and Joinery by Brian Porter, which bit has confused you?

Hello Jake, yes it is a very effective tool and one which Im going to have to practice a bit with I think

John


----------



## Steve Maskery (9 Feb 2010)

Well I don't know what a wagtail is, for a start.
But also I don't understand how you make box sash windows draught-proof. We had them in our Victorian semi when we were kids and all I remember is them being blooming draughty and being sealed up with sellotape.
I suppose I just need to do some trad reading.

Cheers
Steve


----------



## John Smith (9 Feb 2010)

The wagtail, also known as a parting slip is a thin section of timber or ply which hangs suspended vertically between the counter balance weights from the box frame head. Its purpose is to stop the weights from clashing with eachother as they move when the sashes are opened and closed.

Draught proofing is acheived (I hope) with the use of the extruded parting bead (located between the sashes) that a have mentioned earlier in the thread and weather pile strips routed into both the inner face of the outer lining and the outside edge (closest to the inner sash) of the staff bead. The staff bead is the bead which holds the inner sash in place. Traditional box sash windows didnt have any of the draught proofing mentioned above.

I will do a sketchup drawing to try to explain it better.

John


----------



## Steve Maskery (9 Feb 2010)

Thank you!


----------



## joiner_sim (9 Feb 2010)

Hi, windows look like there coming on now! As for fixing the frames, I do not have any practical knowledge on the subject, as I have only supplied these before, not fixed.


----------



## agbagb (9 Feb 2010)

Thoughts on traditional fixing. The trad linings dont have the structural strength. So the fixing should be on the cill ends and the top rail. ie. the only strong bits near the bricks.

That's my starter for 10. Any advance?


----------



## chippy mark (9 Feb 2010)

I have fitted these with screws through the cill and screw the top inner lining to either the wooden lintel or blocks of wood fixed to the concrete lintel. 
I hope this helps


----------



## John Smith (11 Feb 2010)

Steve Maskery":oj4qs0e6 said:


> Well I don't know what a wagtail is, for a start.
> But also I don't understand how you make box sash windows draught-proof. We had them in our Victorian semi when we were kids and all I remember is them being blooming draughty and being sealed up with sellotape.
> I suppose I just need to do some trad reading.
> 
> ...



To save me doing the sketchup drawing I thought I could try to explain with pictures

The outer sash (top) is located between the parting bead and the outer liner. The parting bead I am using has a "flipper" on either side which compresses against the sash and I have routed a grove on the inside face of the outer liner to take a weather pile strip, so the arrangement looks like this












They are short sections of course but I hope you can see the idea.

The inner sash (bottom) is held in place by staff bead which also has a routed grove and weather pile strip.

The lead weights (counter balance weights) are located in the sides of the box frame











They will of course be attached via the pulleys to the sashes

The wag tail (parting slip) is suspended between the weights to stop them clashing with each other as the sashes move






The actual wag tail will be thinner than the piece in the picture.

John


----------



## John Smith (11 Feb 2010)

I finished the preparation and priming of the first sash box today






Rather than have a detailed profile on the outer lining inner edge I thought it would look better just rounded over






Then I primed the frame






I have three more to finish assembling and priming before I start the sashes

John


----------



## Mr Ed (11 Feb 2010)

John

I've never used an aluminium primer before - is there a particular benefit over a regular 'paint' primer?

(windows looks good btw)

Ed


----------



## John Smith (12 Feb 2010)

Hello Ed

I am following the advice of a painter friend of mine. He tells me, as do the instructions that come with the paint, that aluminium oxide primer is recommended for resinous or oily woods and is a good choice for any wood if you intend to use a gloss (oil based) paint system, which I do.

Cheers

John


----------



## John Smith (15 Feb 2010)

For anyone following this thread the work will stop now for about five weeks as I have to return to my work which is on a ship at sea, so to be resumed later. Thanks for the interest and comments so far

John


----------



## woodsworth (16 Feb 2010)

I'm curious what that thing on the wall is behind the window. it has some clamps in it and has buttons and lights over head. I guess i'll have to wait a while for that one. You make a very nice sill. thanks for sharing your project.


----------



## John Smith (17 Feb 2010)

Hello Woodsworth, I can still access the the site. Trouble is Im a long way away from the workshop :? 

What you see on the wall is rails for an hydraulic lift down to the machine room. The clamps are hung off the back just for convinience.

John


----------



## SNight (17 Feb 2010)

There are three ways to fix the boxes in.

- If you put closers on the back of the boxes to cover the weights the box can be wedged in placed and expanding foam used all around it to secure. 1/4 or 1/8 ply can be used for this.

- If you don't want to close the box, then you can fix aluminium or steel straps into the reveal, leave them an inch or so sticking out into the room, put the box into place, then bend over the straps on to the face of the inner cheek and use screws to fix, these can be recessed in and then covered over with an architrave.

- On the old windows that I work on (100 years + old), the boxes are fixed into the reveal with a double wedge, at either side of the cill and at either side of the head of the box. Though due to the size of your boxes this may not be strong enough to hold.

Hope ths helps.


----------



## John Smith (17 Feb 2010)

Thanks SNight and yes it does help. I will be closing the boxes so will opt for option 1 and I might add some steel or aluminium straps as well.

John


----------

