# The Ultimate RC Gadget



## woodbloke (10 Jun 2010)

Would you pay nearly £28 :shock: for this?...someone's having a larf - Rob


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## Chems (10 Jun 2010)

Yes, a block with angles cut in it and 4 rare earth magnets. I'd pay £50 for that easily.


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## wizer (10 Jun 2010)

amazing, isn't it.


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## matt (10 Jun 2010)

I'm not sure I fully understand it's purpose. By the description it sounds as though you stick the blade on it, note the angle, feel the angle, then take it off and try and replicate the angle freehand.


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## flounder (10 Jun 2010)

He talked about it at Get Woodworking Live saying that the idea is for a newbie to use it whilst sharpening a blade freehand, and in doing so build up muscle memory of what the correct angle feels like until they can do it without the guide.


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## ByronBlack (10 Jun 2010)

== Edited to a more reasonable manner ==

Interesting 'idea' which I feel maybe an expensive replacement for a simple sliding bevel.


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## Ikisumu (10 Jun 2010)

Well, you can use the magnets to magnetize the iron before sharpening. There'll be a nice fluffy array of steel residues right at the edge poking out and going under the bevel. Will do interesting things with finer stones.

You can also throw it through your pile of chips and shavings to find the screws you have lost for making a decision to buy that thing.


I have a strange feeling there's been an awful lot of product bashing lately. How about some good and reasonable tools for a change?

Samu


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## Philly (10 Jun 2010)

I had a go with one - its essentially training wheels for free-hand sharpening. But it works really well - its one of those things you need to have a little go with for the penny to drop. 
And its a little rich some of you moaning about the cost of a sharpening jig - there are some here with _sharpening jig collections_........ :lol: 
Cheers
Philly


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## big soft moose (10 Jun 2010)

I dare someone to buy one for grim and sent to him as a secret santa next year :lol:


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## woodbloke (10 Jun 2010)

Philly":2i8bj73p said:


> I had a go with one - its essentially training wheels for free-hand sharpening. But it works really well - its one of those things you need to have a little go with for the penny to drop.
> And its a little rich some of you moaning about the cost of a sharpening jig - there are some here with _sharpening jig collections_........ :lol:
> Cheers
> Philly


Hi Philly, I'm not saying that it won't work well...but would _you_ pay £28 for a triangular lump of material and 4 magnets?...some of us have sharpening jig collections  but I'm not one of them (not forgetting of course that I can hone freehand) - Rob


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## bugbear (10 Jun 2010)

Philly":1biutck7 said:


> I had a go with one - its essentially training wheels for free-hand sharpening. But it works really well - its one of those things you need to have a little go with for the penny to drop.
> And its a little rich some of you moaning about the cost of a sharpening jig - there are some here with _sharpening jig collections_........ :lol:
> Cheers
> Philly



Does it have any kind of wheels underneath?

Sidebar rant: I HATE web pages that are video only. 3 photographs, and a paragraph of text would have served me much better than the 8 minute video (that I refuse to sit through),

BugBear


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## LeeElms (10 Jun 2010)

bugbear":37m9glgf said:


> Sidebar rant: I HATE web pages that are video only. 3 photographs, and a paragraph of text would have served me much better than the 8 minute video (that I refuse to sit through),
> 
> BugBear



I totally agree ... video is good for some things, but often a few pictures will convey the same idea just as well or better in a few seconds.


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## Chems (10 Jun 2010)

I don't doubt the idea, Its the price. I could run a block of wood through my table saw at those angles and glue in a set of magnets for the cost of about £2.


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## seanybaby (10 Jun 2010)

What do you expect? The man has to feed his kids. :lol:


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## DaveL (10 Jun 2010)

bugbear":1gq28kl4 said:


> Does it have any kind of wheels underneath?



Having watched part of the video the answer is no.


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## TheTiddles (10 Jun 2010)

I know what I'm doing tomorrow lunch time...


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## robcosman (11 Jun 2010)

Hey Bloke, do you ever say anything positive? Based on as many of your posts as I have read, you must be one treat to live with. I put myself and my wares in the public eye and fully expect both criticism and praise as part of the process. That said, the only thing you seem to contribute is sarcastic criticism meant to draw attention to yourself. Bullied as a child?
Rob Cosman


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## woodbloke (11 Jun 2010)

robcosman":1s0co00u said:


> Hey Bloke, do you ever say anything positive? Based on as many of your posts as I have read, you must be one treat to live with. I put myself and my wares in the public eye and fully expect both criticism and praise as part of the process. That said, the only thing you seem to contribute is sarcastic criticism meant to draw attention to yourself. Bullied as a child?
> Rob Cosman


Ooooooooh...that's a bit harsh Rob, but I'll accept it with the undiluted venom with which the comment was posted :wink: 

I never said that it wouldn't work well, only that it's a truly exorbitant amount of money to pay for what is essentially a triangular bit of material and four magnets. As others have said, this could be knocked up in a few minutes from an oddment of stuff in the scrap box...£28 is way over the top. However, if you can persuade people (for that read idiots) that this gadget is _worth_ paying that amount of money for, then more power to your elbow!
My initial comment was not intended to be sarcastic as it's a common form of address/humour on this side of the water, but hailing from the colonies as you do, you may not understand the phrase...'having a larf' (now that_ is_ being sarcastic in case you didn't realize)
As to drawing attention to myself, the 'pot calling kettle black' springs immediatly to mind and if you don't know what that English expression means, I suggest you look that one up as well :lol: - Rob


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## robcosman (11 Jun 2010)

I'll respond to this in detail later tonight. Would I be correct in assuming you don't know much about product development, packaging, distribution, wholesale/retail margins? 
Rob Cosman


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## woodbloke (11 Jun 2010)

robcosman":250obf81 said:


> I'll respond to this in detail later tonight. Would I be correct in assuming you don't know much about product development, packaging, distribution, wholesale/retail margins?
> Rob Cosman


At the end of the jour...it's _still_ a simple triangular piece of material with 4 magnets in it - Rob


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## TheTiddles (11 Jun 2010)

Well, seems I've arrived just in time!* Where's my waterpistol to stop you two cats fighting...

A small bit of 19mm acrylic I had spare, a 75 facing cutter and a few minutes gave the right angles, some magnets glue and a grit blaster made it function and a little tickle on a laser to give it a nice finish we have...





I can almost feel my muscles being trained as I look at it**. In fact, you wouldn't believe how with the help of this little gadget how different 31 degrees feels from 29***, if only most of my tools weren't honed to 35 :? ****

To me it seems that it would wear very quickly on a stone and loose its accuracy, but then again, I'm only a product development engineer, what would I know?*****

Want to try it out tomorrow Rob? You do the tea and negativity I'll do the biscuits.

Aidan

* - sarcastic
** - very sarcastic
*** - positively oozing in sarcasm
**** - no really they are
***** - even more sarcastic than the last time


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## matt (11 Jun 2010)

robcosman":2qh3ku2m said:


> I'll respond to this in detail later tonight. Would I be correct in assuming you don't know much about product development, packaging, distribution, wholesale/retail margins?
> Rob Cosman



I do. I'm now very curious to see how this argument is about to play out given the intro...


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## cambournepete (11 Jun 2010)

And there was I expecting a Remote Control tank or similar...


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## woodbloke (11 Jun 2010)

TheTiddles":3vb4bcv2 said:


> Well, seems I've arrived just in time!* Where's my waterpistol to stop you two cats fighting...
> 
> A small bit of 19mm acrylic I had spare, a 75 facing cutter and a few minutes gave the right angles, some magnets glue and a grit blaster made it function and a little tickle on a laser to give it a nice finish we have...
> 
> ...



That is in fact is uber-cool and worthy of at least an outing with Theo at the DD :lol: but here's the definitive version in English oak:






hand made in 15 minutes(biro engraved) and that _included_ honing a planeblade. This version is offered to the forum at the special discount rate of £25*** without magnets (haven't got any  ) and with magnets for £30 (gota make a profit somewhere***** :lol but please note, this does not include fancy packaging (which is extra) or postage rates (again extra) - Rob


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## TheTiddles (11 Jun 2010)

Oh, I was going to put mine in a charity auction to raise funds for your "bullied at school" issues! :lol: 

Aidan


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## woodbloke (11 Jun 2010)

TheTiddles":20da2xf2 said:


> Oh, I was going to put mine in a charity auction to raise funds for your "bullied at school" issues! :lol:
> 
> Aidan


Good idea Aiden...can go towards my Domino fund! :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## flounder (11 Jun 2010)

"To me it seems that it would wear very quickly on a stone and loose its accuracy"

If the bottom contact face is running on the stone wouldn't the face wear evenly and therefore the honing angles remain the same?


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## TheTiddles (11 Jun 2010)

flounder":2apcw5ca said:


> "To me it seems that it would wear very quickly on a stone and loose its accuracy"
> 
> If the bottom contact face is running on the stone wouldn't the face wear evenly and therefore the honing angles remain the same?



Only if the load is dead even which it won't be, I'd go for something like an eclipse guide for doing blades that way, I do hone freehand but only on wide, low-angle blades that have a huge surface area to keep pressed onto the stone

Aidan


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## jimi43 (11 Jun 2010)

I won't even ASK about the patents....

No...I won't......I just won't....

 

I think I will wait for the special 10th Anniversary engraved edition....

(I forgot how many stars that is supposed to be but it's lots...)


Jim


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## Doug B (12 Jun 2010)

woodbloke":2t59xvdq said:


> Ooooooooh...that's a bit harsh Rob,




What were you expecting Woodbloke, the guy to come on the forum & completely agree with you & the others who have derided him & his product.

I don`t condone personal attacks, but what can be expected when threads like this are posted.

If folks want this forum to go back to being a friendlier place, then we all should think about what we are posting.


Doug.


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## woodbloke (12 Jun 2010)

Doug B":25ydkrgi said:


> woodbloke":25ydkrgi said:
> 
> 
> > Ooooooooh...that's a bit harsh Rob,
> ...


 
Doug - I wasn't deriding the product, as I stated, _only it's price_. I wasn't intentionally deriding Rob C either until he had a pop at me :wink: 
I'm happy to call this one quits before it develops into something far more acrimonious (which would be daft) as we've both had a go at each other - Rob


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## Philly (12 Jun 2010)

Been away on the road a couple of days. Seems I've missed out on the fun....

As I said, I've seen this in the flesh and used it. It is a well made piece, from Corian I believe, and is a very useful jig to help "train the hand".
As for the price - yes, it may seem a little steep at first glance. But Rob makes these himself - he's not a large manufacturer, he's a craftsman who makes these tools himself while also teaching, making dvd's, travelling the country (world!) giving training courses, etc.......
You've made a few marking knives in past - how much do you think you would have to charge to sell those? And make a profit? After shipping them half-way across the world? And then adding a fair retailer discount?
I think you'll find the price becomes far more realistic when you take this into consideration. Whether you think you personally would pay that price is another question again.

So you can kind of understand Rob C's hurt response. At least, I can. He is human, after all. :lol: 

Cheers
Philly


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## miles_hot (12 Jun 2010)

robcosman":7gyyx6g3 said:


> Hey Bloke, do you ever say anything positive? Based on as many of your posts as I have read, you must be one treat to live with. I put myself and my wares in the public eye and fully expect both criticism and praise as part of the process. That said, the only thing you seem to contribute is sarcastic criticism meant to draw attention to yourself. Bullied as a child?
> Rob Cosman



Good grief I didn't realise that being bullied as a kid was the cause my tendency to sarcastic wit (being the lowest form it also fits with my love of innuendo).

Thank you so much for pointing this out to me Rob, I must remember this when considering tool / book purchases as you're obviously a multi talented shrink as well as a brilliant product engineer.

Miles


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## woodbloke (12 Jun 2010)

Philly":1td4w9te said:


> Been away on the road a couple of days. Seems I've missed out on the fun....
> 
> As I said, I've seen this in the flesh and used it. It is a well made piece, from Corian I believe, and is a very useful jig to help "train the hand".
> As for the price - yes, it may seem a little steep at first glance. But Rob makes these himself - he's not a large manufacturer, he's a craftsman who makes these tools himself while also teaching, making dvd's, travelling the country (world!) giving training courses, etc.......
> ...


 
Philly - as I said, I'm happy to call this quits before it degenerates into an all out slanging match, which quite frankly, this forum doesn't need. All I would point out is that there are two equally useful little gadgets from the USA (both of which I have) like this and this(Painters Pyramids) which must have been subject to the same sort of marketing strategies as Rob's triangular block...but when you look at price differential for _similarly simple objects_, the difference is glaring. That Rob makes these himself (which I didn't know) would go some way to explain the high cost. My feeling is that if he were to sub-contract this work out to a small firm for batch production, the cost per unit would probably drop significantly. 
The salient point is that no one thus far on the forum has been prepared to say that they'd stump up nearly £30 for a block of corian...£15 maybe but at the former price point I suspect there won't be many punters - Rob


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## jimi43 (12 Jun 2010)

Maybe one day someone will explain to me why I need to train my hands to do this anyway.

I get the feeling that if you use a jig you are considered an amateur and hand sharpening somehow makes you "professional".

Sorry Phil but if I ever felt the need to have one of these...which I don't, I am with the others...I would whip up a bit of scrap.

Whilst Rob's comment may not have been the most subtle way of putting over a point...I am with him on the point...100%...

I want a laser though!!!!   

Jim


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## woodbloke (12 Jun 2010)

jimi43":2pjktlda said:


> .
> 
> I want a laser though!!!!
> 
> Jim


Pick one up at a booty tomorrow Jim! :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## PeterBassett (12 Jun 2010)

Absolute pisser.... :lol: 

I'm with cambournepete, the Ultimate RC Gadget is a flying underwater tank jet train.


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## jimi43 (12 Jun 2010)

woodbloke":1lcfrcxx said:


> jimi43":1lcfrcxx said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



HA!!!

I bought half a plane once...so anything's possible.

Annie did her nut when I came home with the complete control system simulator for a Cessna! She was smiling on the other side of her face when I sold it to a guy in Hungary for hundreds!

Now...lasers....mmmm....I ain't seen one of those yet...but anything's possible...

:wink: 

Jim


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## wizer (12 Jun 2010)

RC. I have met you and found you a very welcoming and friendly guy. I came away thinking "Nice Bloke". But I do think your insults to WB are somewhat harsh. I hope you can find it in yourself to apologise. I realise that it's not nice to hear your work criticised, but this is the name of the game. It happens with pretty much everything that is made or sold. You said it yourself. We all receive criticism for the things we do or make, that's life. But no one insulted you personally. WB had every right to suggest the triangle that you make is expensive, because it really is. Now I don't doubt you have worked out what it costs you to make and sell, but when selling to people who make things from wood, it's clear that someone's going to point out how simple they are to make. I think the product could be very useful and when I watched the video, I 'got it' instantly. But I do think that an actual honing guide is more useful for similar expenditure (if not much less n some cases).

Only your sales reports can tell you if these comments are reflective of your customer base. I truly wish you well with your business ventures. I own most of your DVDs and fully intend to buy one of your saws one day because it's the only one I've picked up and it felt 'right'.


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## Jake (12 Jun 2010)

wizer":1fdgqa67 said:


> RC. I have met you and found you a very welcoming and friendly guy. I came away thinking "Nice Bloke". But I do think your insults to WB are somewhat harsh. I hope you can find it in yourself to apologise. I realise that it's not nice to hear your work criticised, but this is the name of the game. It happens with pretty much everything that is made or sold. You said it yourself. We all receive criticism for the things we do or make, that's life. But no one insulted you personally. WB had every right to suggest the triangle that you make is expensive, because it really is. Now I don't doubt you have worked out what it costs you to make and sell, but when selling to people who make things from wood, it's clear that someone's going to point out how simple they are to make. I think the product could be very useful and when I watched the video, I 'got it' instantly. But I do think that an actual honing guide is more useful for similar expenditure (if not much less n some cases).
> 
> Only your sales reports can tell you if these comments are reflective of your customer base. I truly wish you well with your business ventures. I own most of your DVDs and fully intend to buy one of your saws one day because it's the only one I've picked up and it felt 'right'.



What happened to the view that comments which did not assist people to sell things are automatically trollish and should be banned?


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## wizer (12 Jun 2010)

eh?


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## stevebuk (12 Jun 2010)

> What happened to the view that comments which did not assist people to sell things are automatically trollish and should be banned?



absolutely agree jake, looks like a certain clan are massing and defending each other, lets wait for a certain horned one to add his comments yet!!
I also thought Moderators were supposed to be impartial, unless of course they are modding 2 forums it seems :wink:


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## Philly (12 Jun 2010)

Rob (Woodbloke - getting confusing with all these Robs...)

Fair enough. I only felt I should defend Rob C's product as 1: I actually seen and used it, and 2: You have a little history with bashing Rob C's product/techniques..... :lol: 
This is no reason for Rob C to respond as harshly as he did - I know he's a decent fellow and hope he'll reconsider some of his comments after sleeping on them. As we have seen from recent threads, getting heated is no way to sell your products! :wink: 

SteveB
As for Mods being impartial, I have my own views and opinions. Am I not free to express those (within the agreed rules) when posting here as a member? Obviously if I was acting as a "Moderator" that would be more under the magnifying glass, but I've been a member here for many years and actually do partake in a little woodworking every now and again. I'm not just here as unpaid administrator, open to the "wonderfully witty" comments of all and sundry.

Philly


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## stevebuk (12 Jun 2010)

then perhaps Philly you should make it plain as to whether you are 'Acting as Moderator' or ' Member' when adding your comments to a thread..


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## studders (13 Jun 2010)

To be fair to Whizzer (wizer) :lol: he's never said comments, good or bad, should _not_ be allowed on sale/product threads, as far as I know. Some others have indeed claimed that negative comments are trollish, made by 'The Problem Few' blah blah rubbish rubbish. I note they have said nothing in this instance. Selective? they are indeed, which is why I take little notice of their opinion on the subject. 

The Gadget - Too expensive and too easily makeable at home.

WB's Comments - Blunt, with sarcastic undertone.

RC's Comments - Petulant, Rude, Insulting, Childish.


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## matt (13 Jun 2010)

Philly":3am4r6eo said:


> ...But Rob makes these himself - he's not a large manufacturer, he's a craftsman who makes these tools himself while also teaching, making dvd's, travelling the country (world!) giving training courses, etc.......
> You've made a few marking knives in past - how much do you think you would have to charge to sell those? And make a profit? After shipping them half-way across the world? And then adding a fair retailer discount?
> I think you'll find the price becomes far more realistic when you take this into consideration. Whether you think you personally would pay that price is another question again.



Strikes me that this particular product does not command the "romance" of "hand-made" and may be better suited to mass production and therefore an improved price. By contrast, a hand-made marking knife, or plane, etc is a different kettle of fish.


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## Philly (13 Jun 2010)

stevebuk":1z6j2sfd said:


> then perhaps Philly you should make it plain as to whether you are 'Acting as Moderator' or ' Member' when adding your comments to a thread..



When I act as a Moderator I normally make that quite clear, Steve. If its any help to you though, I have now handed in my notice to Charley and you can take as read that my comments are indeed my own.

Philly


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## Jake (13 Jun 2010)

Read the rules at Wizer's new place, Studders?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (13 Jun 2010)

I am with you Philly. I really have no time for knockers when they all they appear to do is criticise for the sake of it. Bloody children. :roll: 

I will offer a challenge to all who believe that Rob Cosman's training aid is possible to make as a one-off for under the price he sells it. 

What no one seems to have understood (too quick to knock?) is that the material that is used in the manufacture of this ding-dong is not wood and not plastic. "It's made of a composite material that does not wear very quickly" (video). Could it be corian (as used in the RC dovetail saw handles)? Corian is rated more wear resistant than granite. So what do you plan to use when you build yours?  Wood?! :lol: 

Whether you consider the "training wheels" necessary, that is another matter altogether. Frankly they are just another sharpening aid. And there are plenty here who seem to love discussing their honing guides. Don't think it is a good idea? Then just say so ... with a rational reason. That is the appropriate way to critique something.

Good luck with the challenge.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## studders (13 Jun 2010)

Jake":2epwuluz said:


> Read the rules at Wizer's new place, Studders?



Nope. Got a Linky to a relevant one?
I tend not to read rules as a rule, that way I can 'not knowingly' break them. :wink:


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## jimi43 (13 Jun 2010)

Derek...I am a guitar maker (of sorts) so I have used Corian before so at least I am aware of it.

I suppose RC will know how useful it is by how many he sells.

If this thread represents market research from his potential market, rightly or wrongly....I think he should revisit the business plan!  

Mind you...if he comes up with an engraving laser for £28 then I will be first in the queue! :mrgreen: :lol: [-o< 

Jim


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## studders (13 Jun 2010)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> So what do you plan to use when you build yours?  *Wood?!* :lol:
> 
> Derek



Not that I intend to make one but, why not Wood?

It's intended as a training aid is it not? So you would not necessarily need to practice with it on an abrasive surface.


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## PeterBassett (13 Jun 2010)

studders":283hiuy8 said:


> So you would not necessarily need to practice with it on an abrasive surface.



Correctamundo...


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## Jake (13 Jun 2010)

studders":1qip93ro said:


> Jake":1qip93ro said:
> 
> 
> > Read the rules at Wizer's new place, Studders?
> ...



Seems I owe Wizer a semi-apology - the rule is not to post anything on the for sale thread which is "not conducive to selling the item" but you are allowed to start a seperate thread elsewhere to discuss the item generally. I didn't recall the last bit being there when I read them on my first visit there, but that may well just be my defective memory.


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## Jake (13 Jun 2010)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I am with you Philly. I really have no time for knockers when they all they appear to do is criticise for the sake of it. Bloody children. :roll:



Dunno, value for money is a legitimate thing to discuss isn't it? Cost of production is not the measure of value for money for the user, of course. You could theoretically make one of those from diamond rather than off-cuts of corian. The cost would be even more prohibitive.

Woodbloke may have been a bit abrasive but he's making a perfectly fair point. Reminded me of Grim.


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## TheTiddles (13 Jun 2010)

Jake":1d365bgh said:


> Woodbloke may have been a bit abrasive but he's making a perfectly fair point. Reminded me of Grim.



Now it's REALLY getting personal! :lol: 

Can we get back to the real point of the thread and all revel in the glorious nature of my fantastic reproduction please?!*

Aidan

* - functionally, it's rubbish.


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## Jake (13 Jun 2010)

It's a gleaming jewel Aidan, should sell well as long as you learn the art of salesmanship a bit better*.


*i.e. never admit the truth even in a footnote


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## TheTiddles (13 Jun 2010)

Thanks Jake, glad you like it, I can't handle criticism of any sort or expressions of personal opinion that indicate that anything I do is less than perfect and then I have to resort to being offensive.

Buy my new dovetail saw, it's only 2.5 times the price of a Lie Nielsen!

Aidan


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## jimi43 (13 Jun 2010)

TheTiddles":5yms8v25 said:


> Thanks Jake, glad you like it, I can't handle criticism of any sort or expressions of personal opinion that indicate that anything I do is less than perfect and then I have to resort to being offensive.
> 
> Buy my new dovetail saw, it's only 2.5 times the price of a Lie Nielsen!
> 
> Aidan



Is it engraved with a laser?

Jim


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## TheTiddles (13 Jun 2010)

It could be! :lol:


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## jimi43 (13 Jun 2010)

TheTiddles":2b20zh20 said:


> It could be! :lol:



I want one then...cheque is in the post!

Jim


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## big soft moose (13 Jun 2010)

stevebuk":qm0d4fz0 said:


> , lets wait for a certain horned one to add his comments yet!!
> :



I presume you are reffering to me - I've been away and am only just catching up on the delightfully freindly and pleasant interchange that this forum is known for :roll:

Fwiw I agree with rob, its an interesting concept and potentially helpful for newbies but 28 quid is too steep IMO for a triangular bit of composite and four magnets. 

with regard to toms rule - surely thats to do with forum members selling stuff to each other, not proffesionals selling their goods retail on the open market - IMO making comments about RC's goods is no different to discussing the merits (or otherwise) of shopping at rutlands.

(and finally as a point of pedantry - moose have antlers, not horns  )


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## Jake (13 Jun 2010)

big soft moose":4syzsk7v said:


> with regard to toms rule - surely thats to do with forum members selling stuff to each other, not proffesionals selling their goods retail on the open market



Where does the point of distinction lie there then? If someone for profit wants to charge (subjectively) too much for something, surely it is worse if it is forum member trying to loot other forum member by using the forum, rather than random commercial entity trying to loot forum members by using the wider commercial world?



> (and finally as a point of pedantry - moose have antlers, not horns  )



But trolls, of course, can or do have horns.


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## big soft moose (13 Jun 2010)

Jake":33udq9p7 said:


> big soft moose":33udq9p7 said:
> 
> 
> > with regard to toms rule - surely thats to do with forum members selling stuff to each other, not proffesionals selling their goods retail on the open market
> ...



I'm not getting drawn into the same tired old discussion about the for sale rules - my point is that RC's device is not for sale here, but for sale retail comercially, and therefore trying to establish a linkage with the rules governing forum members sales is falacious,


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## Jake (13 Jun 2010)

big soft moose":3f33qlww said:


> I'm not getting drawn into the same tired old discussion about the for sale rules - my point is that RC's device is not for sale here, but for sale retail comercially, and therefore trying to establish a linkage with the rules governing forum members sales is falacious,



Good old argument by assertion.


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## big soft moose (13 Jun 2010)

Jake":30uqwhmd said:


> big soft moose":30uqwhmd said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not getting drawn into the same tired old discussion about the for sale rules - my point is that RC's device is not for sale here, but for sale retail comercially, and therefore trying to establish a linkage with the rules governing forum members sales is falacious,
> ...



surely all argument is by assertion - isnt the definition of an argument two or more people asserting different points of view ?

that said if the implication is that its only an opinion no factually evidenced then i would say that this is not so.

Its certainly a fact that the rules you refer to are aimed at forum members for sale posts

its also a fact that RC is selling comercially not via this forum

and thus its demonstrable that the rule you refer do does not cover the circumstances under discussion. QED


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## Jake (13 Jun 2010)

It's about logic not about assertions of fact, but don't trouble yourzelf any further.


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## robcosman (13 Jun 2010)

I made it for those "wanting" to learn free hand sharpening. 
It works like training wheels on a kids bike, build confidence to a point of not needing it.
I do it to make a profit, to keep an employee working, to allow the retailer to make his margins.
I use stronger than normal magnets, set in cups to increase their strength, a composite material unaffected by water and easy on the stones, read......more expensive than you have guessed.
The Cdn dollar is strong against the pound right now so imports are going to be more expensive than in the recent past. Retail here is $29.95
Those that buy it, use it and learn the intended skill haven't complained, no returns to date.
I jumped a bit hard on the other Rob, do apologize, please forgive me.
If anyone thinks they can make it cheaper please contact me and I will give you the specs and I will place an order.
How many good ideas never come to market because of the fear of negative feedback? It never hurts to be a bit more constructive in our criticism, the idea is to help not hinder.
Enjoy your what is left of your weekend. Smile!
Rob


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## studders (14 Jun 2010)

robcosman":1jko3ejg said:


> I jumped a bit hard on the other Rob, do apologize, please forgive me.
> 
> Rob



Ahhhhh.... Group Hug everyone, 

and perhaps snogs all round, or is that going a smidgen too far?


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## woodbloke (14 Jun 2010)

robcosman":1a3afs0z said:


> I made it for those "wanting" to learn free hand sharpening.
> It works like training wheels on a kids bike, build confidence to a point of not needing it.
> I do it to make a profit, to keep an employee working, to allow the retailer to make his margins.
> I use stronger than normal magnets, set in cups to increase their strength, a composite material unaffected by water and easy on the stones, read......more expensive than you have guessed.
> ...


Rob, no worries, accepted...done and dusted - Rob


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## jimi43 (14 Jun 2010)

Damn and blast and drat...

Just as it was getting good! Where DO you have to go today for a good intellectual punch up! :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## wizer (14 Jun 2010)

Stick around Jim. It's a regular occurrence here...


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## ByronBlack (14 Jun 2010)

I'm pleased to see that Rob C didn't 'do a dino'


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