# Shop counter design?



## gidon

I want to build a shop counter. Are there any design rules I should adhere to? They seem to be 900mm high and have plinths but not sure why the plinth is needed. 
I want it freestanding. I want it to be made from local wood. I need the design and joinery to be simple - possibly knock-down. It needs to look contemporary. 
I'm having trouble getting design inspiration for this so really any ideas, suggestions, comments much appreciated.
Thanks
Gidon


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## SketchUp Guru

Solid wood? All wood or perhaps some mixed materials? Metal, glass, etc.?


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## jasonB

You may want to set the till or cash draw at a lower level. Also things like orderbooks, diary, till rolles etc are better out of sight

If its free standing you will need a safe way to get power and phone lines to it without the risk of tripping.

Find out what the clients needs are regarding storage fpr bags and maybe paper wraping rolls etc. 

Do they need to display small valuable items under a glass countertop/front

Jason


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## JoinerySolutions

Gidon, you don't say what type of shop this is for, that may have a bearing on design.
Counters are nominally 900mm high though cash registers are set around 750 to 800. This is according to the metric handbook Planning and Design Data by the Architectural Press.
The type of store will often dictate the materials used and the owners taste will dictate what they can afford. :wink:


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## gidon

Thanks for the replies.

So the cash register is dropped down 15cm to the counter top? 

It's for a modern technology shop (think Apple store kind of feel) selling computers, cameras, camcorders, accessories etc. I was thinking some of the items like memory cards etc under a glass top but not so important. Don't mind mixing materials but want something quite easy to build since not much time.

Perhaps a drawer then under the counter top too?

I will try and source local wood - I can get English Beech, Ash, Cherry, Pear at reasonable prices. Not used Enlgish variants of these woods - any I should avoid?

There is an issue with getting electrics to the counter but I was thinking of one of those rubber strips over the wires?

It's for me by the way - not a client!

Browsing the web I can't see much that fits the kind of look I want.

Joinerysolutions - does your book have any design ideas for shop counters?

Thanks a lot,

Gidon


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## wizer

Good luck with your venture Gidon. I think you need to think about a theme for the shop. Do you want it to be like a rustic oak feel? Or a 'Back to School' kind of feel (science labs or something). You get the idea? Then you can work out how the place will look. I'd love to have a go at something like that (designing it I mean).



PS: If you need a website....


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## jasonB

Try a Google Image search for "shop counters" hundreads of designs there.

If there is a false ceiling you may be able to drop the wires down a tube, less risk of tripping and it looks better.

Jason


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## JoinerySolutions

Gidon, the book is a design reference it has dimensions for most design needs that an architect or designer may need. Unfortunately it does not really show actual designs.

Timber wise beech is a clean crisp looking material and cherry is much warmer, avoid heat build up in it when sanding as this can cause surface checking. Some laminates can work well with these timbers too, ideal for large areas of vertical surfaces.
As for you being your own client, brave...very brave! :lol: 

atb Rob.


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## gidon

Thanks Wizer - I have an interim website up but after the shop opens will be getting full e-commerce site up.

Jason - have a look at Google but not a huge variation - still got some ideas including the variation below so thanks.

OK thanks Rob.

Had a quick play with Sketchup - whaddya reckon? Wood selection in sketchup is not very good - would like a lighter look so may well go with Beech - espeically since I can get very local Cornish beech.

H=900mm (till at 750mm), W=1600mm, D=600mm




Cheers

Gidon


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## wizer

I think you could easily get a glass display box in that first, top section and I'd make it an FE drawer. It really depends on your EPOS system, but I think I'd want the till covered from view at the front.

I guess it all depends on how long you've got to make it and how much work you want to do. You could make it as fancy or basic as you like. Wouldn't it be easier and more economical to use veneered sheet stock with solid lippings?


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## SketchUp Guru

Hmmm...I was thinking of something a bit more contemporary than you've drawn but perhaps you need more storage space?

edit: I banged this out. It's closer to what I pictured based on your description of the place.







BTW, woodgrain materials for SketchUp are everywhere. All you need to do is an image search on Google for the wood you want.


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## gidon

Wizer - yes could use glass as worktop - will see how it looks.
Not sure what you mean about having the till covered - it needs to open?

I'm not against using man made veneered boards - definitely for the bottom and shelves - but would like a fair bit of solid wood too.

Dave - no don't need storage space - just I'm no designer! If you could describe what you were thinking I'll take any suggestions! Tricky thing is it is a barrier - so does seem to limit design options.

Have found some wood grain pics - but haven't used Sketchup for so long - can't remember even the most basic things. You'd have a fit if you saw how I drew that thing up!!

Cheers

Gidon


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## SketchUp Guru

Did my image show up for you?

Maybe the front could be made with a window on the front for displaying some small items. I added some drawers on the back that could have locks. I didn't draw in shelves and below the till might be some additional lockable space or at least drawers for supplies and that sort of thing.


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## JoinerySolutions

Dave R, How did you manage to use watercolours on a napkin without a splodgy mess? :lol: Nice design concept though. Rob.


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## gidon

Sorry Dave - that pic wasn't showing up when I posted.
Nice - may have a play around that idea although not sure it doesn't look a bit like a reception desk rather than a shop counter?
As an aside - when you do something like that in Sketchup - do you still make each individual component and piece it together or do you just sketch it if that makes sense?!
Cheers
Gidon


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## SketchUp Guru

Rob, it's just watercolour pencils.  Thank you.

Gidon, I drew the counter as a single hunk of geometry. No components at all. Since it is just a concept and not intended to work out construction details, I didn't bother with drawing individual parts. If this was a final design or at least getting close, I would draw all of the parts as components.

Shop counter, reception desk. I guess it could go either way. Depends upon what you need.

Dave


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## gidon

Ok thanks Dave - good to know.
Cheers
Gidon


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## gidon

I'm scrapping solid wood and going for Walnut veneered MDF. Just too expensive and time consuming to use solid wood and at least the wood will be locally sourced )) if not from locally cut down trees!

Any further comments on the shop counter design (in the Walnut) before I order the wood? May glass top the top left section as Wizer suggested.

I'm also building some simple 900mm high tables (1.2m wide, 600mm deep) for computers and printers to be displayed and used on.

Any comments? Two or three of these will be butted against each other end to end. Cable management at the back. Does the front need extra support (as in the rail - which I quite like aesthitically anyway)?? Any other ideas? I would like a chunky top but to lip with solid wood and acheive this effect the top would overhang which doesn't really seemed apprpriate or is it?

Really appreciate anyone's help on this.

Front:




Back:




Cheers

Gidon


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## wizer

ahh you're going for the KISS approach  Even if you don't have a glass display cabinet in the top, you might want to consider putting glass on top of the top (if you see what I mean. This will protect the top from hundreds and hundreds of customers each day  It will need wiping often to deal with finger prints, but it will extend the life of the top a great deal.

If this is a tech shop then I think we need something flashy in this counter. Some sort of light effect, or video screen.


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## wobblycogs

If I was building a counter for a computer shop I would seriously consider building a water cooled windowed computer into it. Whack in a few coloured fans and some nice shiny high end graphics card or something. Bling central I admin but will probably appeal to your customers. 

Something I saw once but never got round to trying myself was windowed hard drives. Take two identical hard drives, and put windows in the top then set them up as RAID1 (mirrored). The drive heads will move in sync and look very cool. Your customers will look something like this :shock:. It's apparently fairly easy to window a hard drive just imperative that the environment is very clean but there are ways to achieve that cheaply.


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## gidon

Wizer good idea on the glass ... It will have flashy things on this counter - don't worry!

Wobblycogs - the shop will be selling computers but also other other tech - our remit is anything that plugs in a computer. Focussing on cameras, camcorders, music/vid players, printers etc. We'll be selling branded PCs and laptops including Macs. 

I'm really after desgin help here - not desgined this sort of thing before unsurprisingly!

Also is iron on edging up to this sort of use? Would lipping be better - would have to be much better for the amount of extra work!?

Cheers

Gidon


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## wizer

I'd lip it


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## gidon

Wizer - what just the front edges or all around?
Cheers
Gidon


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## wizer

I think for the counter, all around for sure. It's going to be high use all around. If the tables are up against a wall then I guess you'll get away with Iron-on on the back. Depends on your budget, I guess.

I'm not sure why the commercial guys haven't responded. It might be an idea to post in the General Woodworking forum with your current designs and ask for constructions advice.


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## Ironballs

Depends what you mean by tech shop, if you mean Apple type high concept stuff then I think you need to go for a completely different approach. Perhaps nice shaped wooden top on a metal and glass (or similar) unit below, something that's a little floating.

If it's a little less high concept then you could get away with curved wood, if it's a local version of Game then you could go for the more boxy approach in wood.

Beware if you're your own client, completely ignore the fact that you could build something in wood, decide what you want and what image you're after and arrive at a design. If you can then make it yourself then it's a bonus, but be prepared to farm the work out, eg it could be that you need a brushed aluminium and frosted perspex look


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## jasonB

I don't see why a thickly lipped top has to overhang the sides, it can just sit on top of them and finish flush, a bit like this. Definately solid lipping for all of it, front corners could be solid posts with the boards biscuited into them, less fussy than a butt joint and lipping.

Infact I would do the top from say 100x50 walnut with a rebate to take a sheet of glass, that way the edges of the toughened glass will be protected and you get a display counter. You could also float the frame/top off the carcase by using a few metal spacers, bit of chrome plumbing tube would do. I've got a picture of a counter I did for a Savile Row tailors somewhere, will scan it in tonight.

Jason


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## Oryxdesign

Have a look at these guys counters.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... start%3D18
Look at the tables in the back ground, how about making your counter based around that table, it would look great with mitred tops/legs and a set back infill on the front. You could make the edges of the top and the mitred legs in solid and use veneered mdf for the rest. would be nice in abw perhaps a bit like this.






Si


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## gidon

Thanks chaps - really appreicate your help.

I think if I get the shop tables right I'll fine tune the counter.

IB - Apple store look is closer to what I'm after.

See the end tables in this pic (sorry for pic - thought I might get in trouble for taking photos!) My floor is going to be maple vinyl floor tiles. So I'm after darker walnut tables. The shop has beams which will be painted black. Walls white (just to set picture).

Apple store tables




Jason - I don't get how you do that top (very nice by the way) - how did you achieve the thick top? If the edging is thicker than the MDF then either it'll have to overhang. Or I'd have to do something like below - with face frames - is that what you're alluding to? How do they look? I could then just lip the top. All biscuited together. Yes please post pic if not too much trouble.

Si thanks for that - I like those too. but I want the tables against the wall like my Plymouth Apple store pic above. And want to hide cables behind (see earlier pic). Is the mitred face frame as I've drawn below the sort of thing you had in mind? With the counter than I could perhaps have a panel sitting behind the face frame?

Will the designs I show below be rigid enough do you reckon.

Mitred twide / thin face frame




Mitred narrow / thick face frame




Cheers

Gidon


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## SketchUp Guru

Gidon, are you going to put leveling feet on these tables?

I think I would build the the sides anyway as boxes. Someone will kick the facing pieces and break them if they are unsupported. I would also work to avoid exposed mitered edges as they will get damaged and make your tables look shop-worn in a hurry.


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## Oryxdesign

Hopefully this makes the idea easier to follow. The top and the other side aren't mitred the inside of the outer side is rebated to allow the top to sit inside it and then the lip is glued on afterwards.I would make the legs boxed legs for strength and it will look better visually. The solid fronts of the leg are also rebated so that the edge of the lip that you see is only about 1/4", you can round over to the join if you need to "take your eye off it" but I think you'll be fine with ABW as it's quite forgiving.


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## wizer

I've seen this as a finished item and I must admit I still can't fully visualise how it's done in constuction. But it does look very nice. I'm going to nick the idea for my next proper piece of furniture.


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## jasonB

Gidon, the tops are just a sheet of 19mm veneered MDF with two 50mm wide strips of the same glued around the edges, a bit like this shelf. The sandwich was then cut to size and as its only for use in a hime I covered the edges with flexiveneer but if you keep the total thickness under 50mm then its easier to use 50mm iron on edgeing. You can then just biscuit your sides & front panel into the underside of the sandwich, on the sideboard I cut a 2mm shadow groove to match the door/draw gap. There are some more pieces that go with that sideboard in this album

Although this piece is more traditional and one of my early jobs it shows the 100x50 frame around the top with inset glass (whole top is hinges for access). Its also possible to build the frame with a groove to take an MDF panel and lay glass ontop of this to give a durable surface like this sideboard

Wizer the beaded rebate joint is very easy. For example if you were using 25mm material instead of cutting a rebate 25x18 you cut it 19x18, this will leave a 6x6 "gap" at the corners which you just glue a strip of wood into, did this boxthat way.

Jason


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## gidon

Dave
Yes will be putting levelling feet on - do you reckon they will be ok in the 18mm MDF? The units are going to weigh quite a bit! I know what you saying about the mitred corners but can't see any way around this - even with Si's suggestion (if I've understood it) they be some mitre exposed?

Si
I'm still not sure I've fully understood you. It's hard to see the detail in the pics. Are you saying the top sides are rebated into the sides and the front frame piece? To then lip the un-rebated side of the sides - you'd have a very thin piece of lipping and it'd be cross grain which would be no good? I'm being slow I know!

Jason so the strips of veneered MDF go between the veneered MDF sheets and then you wrap the sides with veneer? Edens don't sell edging strip wider than 30mm? Would the iron on stuff be a little vulnerable? Guess you could lip the edges. Or have I misunderstood what you've done?!

Ok with boxes - agree does look better just more expensive and more work!!

Also a pic of how I'll have the computer section of the shop arranged against one wall.

I've ordered 9 sheets of walnut veneered MDF - yikes (I needed to get an order in for Monday delivery!). This is the current plan but very likely to change! 









The reason it's modular like that with each table around 1.2m wide is because it's easier to build and I can change the shop layout as I need to.

The ends of the table top I'll add lipping.

And the counter:









Tables and counter :





Am I getting there?!

Cheers

Gidon


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## Oryxdesign

Yes, if you were using 19mm veneered mdf and machined out a 12 X 12 rebate from the side and joined the two that would leave you a 7 x 7 square to fill (running from front to back).
If say you are using 19mm solid for the fronts you can cut the same rebate in them. So glue those on and from the top and sides you see 7mm of solid. Glue in a 7 x 7 along the top edge and from the corner you visually see 7 x 7 of solid running 3 ways.
I actually would cut all the rebates in the solid oversize and then plane back.
This gives you a much more durable finish that edge tape. It does take longer but I think it's worth it.













I wouldn't make this infil this much oversize but this bit was laying around, you get the idea.


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## gidon

Si - thanks so much for the step by step - really helps! I get it now - I think! So the main advantage to just lipping the table tops and using a butt joint is strength of joint? Or do you think visually it's better too? 
For the front solid wood I would rebate the full thickness of the wood wouldn't I? Oh - having just written this I'm guessing that's right - but what you're saying is that _visually_ you'll see the same 7mm strip around the front and sides (and back if I bother with the back)?
Cheers
Gidon


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## Oryxdesign

I think you've got it, you do rebate the fronts full thickness of the veneered mdf (or a little over so that you can plane down to it).
I think the main advantage is durability. 
You will gain extra strength from your construction of the insides which includes the back.
If you want to talk over the intricacies PM me your number, or you can get mine from my website.
Si


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## wizer

I get it now, and I _really _like it!

*Idea stolen*

Thanks for the pics Si

Gidon, the latest design looks great, I really like the mock up you've done.


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## Oryxdesign

I don't think its an original idea Tom...


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## gidon

Thanks Si - that's a really generous offer. Wood arrives Monday so will no doubt be stuck very soon. Lovely website and work by the way.
Glad you like Wizer - little idea at the moment how I'm going to get this all cut up and joined together!
Cheers
Gidon


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