# sharpening technique



## mac1012 (6 Nov 2013)

hi I am fairly new to the dark arts of hand tools sharpening and thanks to you guys I have gleaned some good advice 

I have gone down the trend diamond stone route so my question isn't about which method as in water,oil,diamond , etc but more on technique 

I have tried on some chaep chisels but the techniques used by hand I still struggle with I scared of maknjg a dogs cahoneys on anything decent 

I seen paul sellers video on you tube which is quite good I know he was saying he dosent advocacte a micro bevel but has a technique that makes the bevel concave when he was doing a chisel 

frankly its all making my head hurt (hammer) 

I see he has a dvd on sharpening does anyone know if it would be suitable for a newbie ? or any resources 

I am a bit of a step my step kind of approach guy 

with the various hand tools I getting scorps knifes etc I know there is diff techniques for diff tools 

was hoping to get a dvd or book that goes through the basics for diff tools for beginners 

thanks mark


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## Richard T (6 Nov 2013)

Hi Mark

Don't know if you saw this link I posted a while ago. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6oOOmswYZU

Not a book but helpful I hope. He uses water stones but the technique is worth seeing.


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## Jacob (6 Nov 2013)

Paul Sellers sharpening is about as easy as you can get it and is ideal for beginners. He uses diamond plates in his video but oil stones will do just the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM
It's pretty much traditional sharpening as done by millions past and present.
If you are a beginner I wouldn't look any further - not least because there's a confusing mass of alternatives on offer, some of them no good at all!


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## AndyT (6 Nov 2013)

Mark

If you read back through the longest threads in the hand tools section, you will see that there are several different ways to sharpen. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, which I am not going to repeat here. (Each has its defenders and detractors too.)
I suggest that you don't try to read everything that there is on sharpening, as you will be pulled this way and that, and left feeling confused. Pick one way and stick to it. If it works for you, that's what matters.
If you are worried about spoiling tools, get some cheap ones to practise on.


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## Corneel (6 Nov 2013)

If you are prepared to use a grinder, then here is a good description of another very traditional method, used for hundreds of years. Personally I think it is easier then the "Sellers" method, but you do need a grinder.

http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/


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## MMUK (6 Nov 2013)

I have a honing guide that clamps over the chisel so you can run it along a stone. I never use it as I prefer to do things by hand. You're welcome to it if you pop me your address on a PM.


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## markturner (6 Nov 2013)

O lordy.........what have you done........


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## MickCheese (6 Nov 2013)

markturner":2nar86zo said:


> O lordy.........what have you done........



   

Mick


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## thick_mike (6 Nov 2013)




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## mac1012 (6 Nov 2013)

when I was out and looked at my phone I saw a post from someone offering me a a sharpening jig for chisel and to send them a pm 

now I looking at laptop cant seem to see it I must have been dreaming #-o 

anyway thanks for advice all of you the paul sellers short you tube video looks good and how he breaks it down does his dvd cover different tools to sharpen or strop like scorps and knives ?


mark


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## DTR (6 Nov 2013)

mac1012":1dyw7bcu said:


> when I was out and looked at my phone I saw a post from someone offering me a a sharpening jig for chisel and to send them a pm
> 
> now I looking at laptop cant seem to see it I must have been dreaming #-o



..........



MMUK":1dyw7bcu said:


> I have a honing guide that clamps over the chisel so you can run it along a stone. I never use it as I prefer to do things by hand. You're welcome to it if you pop me your address on a PM.


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Nov 2013)

Mark - You mentioned books. Two that have been mentioned quite often are 'Sharpening: The Complete Guide' by Jim Kingshott, and 'The Complete Guide to Sharpening' by Leonard Lee. It seems both books are out of print, but secondhand copies are available from http://www.abebooks.co.uk 

I can personally reccommend Jim Kingshott's book, and I've heard high praise of Lee's work, too.

There's another by Ron Hock which is also often mentioned in a very positive light, too. Unfortunately, I've forgotten the title...

---------------

Once you've got some kit (which you have) and a technique that suits you, it's a case of practicing. Like a lot of things in life, it's easy enough when you've got a bit of experience, but getting the experience can be a bit frustrating for a while. Just keep at it - results will get steadily better.


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## Racers (6 Nov 2013)

The Perfect Edge

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Perfect-Edg ... 1558708588


Pete


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## Cheshirechappie (6 Nov 2013)

Racers":3m13e6ak said:


> The Perfect Edge
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Perfect-Edg ... 1558708588
> 
> ...



Thanks, Pete!


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## tobytools (6 Nov 2013)

Racers":1byw586i said:


> The Perfect Edge
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Perfect-Edg ... 1558708588
> 
> ...



Beat me to it Pete, 
+1 perfect edge

TT


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## mac1012 (7 Nov 2013)

thanks all for the advice and taking the time to reply the perfect edge book looks really good , I think I prefer a book to a dvd so I can take it into workshop and digest it more 

going to be added to my Christmas stocking list , although I don't think I will be buying the hardback copy that amazon are quoting at 112 pounds !! I will order the soft back at 17.99 :lol: 

mark


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## tobytools (7 Nov 2013)

mac1012":1umaq6l6 said:


> thanks all for the advice and taking the time to reply the perfect edge book looks really good , I think I prefer a book to a dvd so I can take it into workshop and digest it more
> 
> going to be added to my Christmas stocking list , although I don't think I will be buying the hardback copy that amazon are quoting at 112 pounds !! I will order the soft back at 17.99 :lol:
> 
> mark



good choice 

TT


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## iNewbie (7 Nov 2013)

For anyone who has all 3 books mentioned: What do the Kingshott and Lee books offer that the Hock, doesn't?

I have the Hock and though its good -and talks alot about Metallurgy- I felt it could have been somewhat better. Maybe thats just me though.


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## Jacob (7 Nov 2013)

There you go - 3 books - probably 100 times more information and 100 times more kit than was available to a beginner say 50 years ago. 
Nobody gave it much thought - it wasn't difficult then, it is now. :roll:


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## Racers (7 Nov 2013)

Its like the drone from the fridge.

Pete


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## SammyQ (7 Nov 2013)

That's being highly unfair to fridges!They deliver a useful function...unlike..... (hammer) 

Sam


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## Harbo (7 Nov 2013)

I have the Lee book - it covers some metallurgy but mainly advice on how to sharpen a very wide range of tools.

Rod


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## RossJarvis (9 Nov 2013)

For about 15quid, you can get a double sided Stanley stone with oil and a honing guide. I found this a good place to start;

http://www.screwfix.com/p/stanley-chise ... tAodLRQAiw

You can practice sharpening free-hand and/or use the guide. This can help you see if you are any good free-hand and compare to see what a sharp tool is like. I'd suggest doing this before spending any money on books, Japanese stones etc. Once you start you can literally get obsessed and spend all your Worldly goods and savings and end up battling people with badly or well honed edges to death. As a wise person mentioned earlier; "WON"T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!"


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## Jacob (9 Nov 2013)

Agree. Keep it simple and get a viable system up and running before venturing too far. 
Personally I'd bin the guide straight away as an unnecessary level of complication for a beginner.


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## woodbrains (9 Nov 2013)

Hello,

My advice is to get the Stanley stone kit and NEVER get one of those excellent books. Then you will be in a state of blissful ignorance as to what sharp truly is, but you will not have spent any money and not know any better, thinking you got a good deal. In fact spend no money, use a concrete paving slab in the street and achieve similar results to the Stanley stone anyhow. It is a no brainier! :twisted: 

Sorry children!

Mike.


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## MIGNAL (9 Nov 2013)

I've never bought a book on sharpening in my entire life Woodbrains. Why on earth would I? Sharpening a Chisel, Plane blade, Knife etc is a very simple process. If we are simply concerned with sharpening common woodworking tools (and not a discourse on metallurgy) why do you need a whole book on the subject? The answer is that you don't.


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## Jacob (9 Nov 2013)

Nor me. I buy a lot of books but sharpening doesn't feature! Who needs them?*
I use pencils but haven't bought a book on how to sharpen them - do you think I should?

*well Woodbrains obviously! :lol:


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## MMUK (9 Nov 2013)

Funny you seem to be recommending the Stanley kit, that's what I have and the stone is rubbish!. That's also the honing guide I've never used which ended up in the bin last night.....


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## JimF. (9 Nov 2013)

If you don't get a book on sharpening pencils then you may never experience the transcendent joy of a truly sharp writing instrument. You may as well just use a charred stick. 

A lot of sharpening hokum just discourages people from getting started as it makes it all seem too difficult. I know I was almost put off by the thought of having to spend upwards of £150 just to start being able to get a plane blade and some chisels to a state where I might be able to do some simple woodwork. Then there was the flatness issue, lapping plates, don't get me started! That's why my first plane was an electric one with disposable blades.

An oilstone is perfectly adequate to get started on. It worked perfectly well for my great grandfather, whose furniture still survives today, and there is no reason it cannot work for us now. You *can* refine and move ever finer with strops, waterstones, diamonds etc. But unless you know why from your own practical experience and feeling there is no need to get hung up on it.


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## MMUK (9 Nov 2013)

I quite agree Julian. However, I don't personally consider the Stanley oilstone to be of sufficient quality for a decent edge. I've used mine once to sharpen 5 chisels and it has a bigger dipper in it than Alton Towers! (maybe a slight exaggeration but you get my drift). The stone is just too soft and crumbly.


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## Jacob (9 Nov 2013)

MMUK":33czzyj8 said:


> I quite agree Julian. However, I don't personally consider the Stanley oilstone to be of sufficient quality for a decent edge. I've used mine once to sharpen 5 chisels and it has a bigger dipper in it than Alton Towers! (maybe a slight exaggeration but you get my drift). The stone is just too soft and crumbly.


You are probably right. Perhaps go mad and spend some dosh for once, on one of these instead. Expensive, but wil last a lifetime. 
Lots of them about 2nd hand for peanuts, often with nice wooden box. £10 should do it, don't pay more - old yer orses!


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## MMUK (9 Nov 2013)

Jacob":3gd5ss4h said:


> MMUK":3gd5ss4h said:
> 
> 
> > I quite agree Julian. However, I don't personally consider the Stanley oilstone to be of sufficient quality for a decent edge. I've used mine once to sharpen 5 chisels and it has a bigger dipper in it than Alton Towers! (maybe a slight exaggeration but you get my drift). The stone is just too soft and crumbly.
> ...



Spooky! :shock: 

I've just looked at that exact same stone on MTS with a view to ordering (once I can get past the Makita pages) :lol:


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## David C (11 Nov 2013)

I am very fond of the Eclipse type guides.

They are an almost perfect aid. Cheap, reliable, long lasting and effective. Guides are excellent for repeatability and efficiency.

To suggest that they add "an unnecessary level of complication" is absurd and without rational basis. It takes but a few seconds to mount a chisel or plane blade, and the honing angle will be certain rather than approximate.

The usual howls of derision from the freehand mob, will be sure to follow?

David Charlesworth


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## Jacob (11 Nov 2013)

Hmm, sounds like a whimper of derision. :roll: 
I think your suggestion is absurd and without rational basis!


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## MMUK (11 Nov 2013)

Popcorn anyone?


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## bugbear (11 Nov 2013)

Jacob":e9vtmzph said:


> Personally I'd bin the guide straight away...



Agreed. The Stanley guide is truly terrible, I'd recommend the Eclipse #36 or a copy thereof.

BugBear


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## Corneel (11 Nov 2013)

That's how I thought back when I used an Eclipse: It costs just a few seconds. And how accurate it is.

But it is truly liberating to be able to just turn around from your work, drop the chisel on the coarse stone, race it up and down to raise a wireedge. Then flip it over to the polishing stone and a few swipes on bevel and back and you're back in business.

I don't exactly remember how much time it costs to set the chisel in the guide and adjust it. Somewhere around 30 seconds I guess. But there is more. Without the guide you can use the full length of the stone, making it faster and eliminating a lot of stone flattening time. Beside that, when freehand honing, the stone just doesn't need the same level of absolute flattness.

And I get all the precision I need from the hollow grind, there is really no need for a guide.

So, there was no looking back. Guides are indeed a waste of time, and above that they are of no use when you need to sharpen something which doesn't fit in the guide. It is just not logical to sharpen the easy stuff with a guide and the harder stuff, like gouges, freehand. This is all completely rational.


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## David C (11 Nov 2013)

Precision grinding?

That must be very suspect but I have not worked out why, yet.....................

David


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## iNewbie (11 Nov 2013)

Corneel":u12x0sml said:


> So, there was no looking back. Guides are indeed a waste of time, and above that they are of no use when you need to sharpen something which doesn't fit in the guide. It is just not logical to sharpen the easy stuff with a guide and the harder stuff, like gouges, freehand. This is all completely rational.



They're not a waste of time to everyone, though. For some they're useful. The 'freehand' Rev-moon movement is all very nice but, some people take _their_ pleasure in _using _a guide. 

True. They may not need it, but, _want _to. I'm not sure if this is so hard to understand for some. Like, not taking the shortest route home - or to a place... Its called Free-will.

As long as you get the results _you _want thats all that matters. For some it seems that what matters is that, they, dictate what you need... 

Carry on.


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## Jacob (11 Nov 2013)

Corneel":37r6pgmf said:


> That's how I thought back when I used an Eclipse: It costs just a few seconds. And how accurate it is.
> 
> But it is truly liberating to be able to just turn around from your work, drop the chisel on the coarse stone.................
> 
> ...


Yup. My experience too. 
I fiddled about with jigs for years - flatness is the main issue - they don't work if the stone is not flat enough. 
2nd prob is that you can't put a lot of force into it - it's difficult when you are trying to keep the wheels and the edge _both _engaged. The design is wrong - the wheels should be in front - you'd get a rounded bevel but would not be able to exceed the desired angle - as you so easily can with the badly designed conventional jig - completely defeating the object! What a dud design!


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## kreed (11 Nov 2013)

MMUK":16qi6gcq said:


> Popcorn anyone?



You made me choke on my drink!!!

Fantastic two word comment =D> =D> =D> 

(not taking sides though, I might need some help in the future)


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## Corneel (11 Nov 2013)

David C":29tt8x76 said:


> Precision grinding?
> 
> That must be very suspect but I have not worked out why, yet.....................
> 
> David



Yes it is, very suspect. I use the standard toolrest of my grinder as the reference for all further sharpening.

My next goal in sharpening is getting rid of the grinder too from my regular sharpening sequence. But I have to finish a few saws first.


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## David C (11 Nov 2013)

I have never found any problem with exerting force, near to the edge of the tool.

Recently read of a craftsman who leads with the wheels, thus making it easier still to exert force near the edge.

Flatness of stone is irrelevant unless you want a dead straight edge. I forgot to mention that camber is easily obtained as is the correction of a slightly out of square edge due to imperfect grind. 

David


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## Corneel (12 Nov 2013)

In all these sharpening discussions you have still not expained how you fit a gouge in your jig, David.


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## David C (12 Nov 2013)

That's the kind of **** I was expecting.


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## John15 (12 Nov 2013)

I don't use a guide but frequently check my hand held angle with a plastic 30 degree set square. This works fine for me, a sort of half-way house you might say.
John


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

David C":3dtioiio said:


> That's the kind of **** I was expecting.


How do you do a gouge then Dave? :lol:


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

John15":2iiplcmh said:


> I don't use a guide but frequently check my hand held angle with a plastic 30 degree set square. This works fine for me, a sort of half-way house you might say.
> John


I do the same. Because I'm trying hard to avoid rounding-over I tend to do edges bit under 30º so I check every now and then with a set-square and usually raise the angle a touch.


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## iNewbie (12 Nov 2013)

Why do you need a set square. Ah, you need a guide yourself. :mrgreen:


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

iNewbie":5p0ff36x said:


> Why do you need a set square. Ah, you need a guide yourself. :mrgreen:


I wouldn't say I "need" it but it's handy to check things occasionally. 

I'm often surprised at how angry and sarcastic the "opposition" is but I suppose really they are angry with themselves for not being able to do it. But they talk themselves out of it - I'm quite certain everybody could manage without training wheels if they would just stop being so timid and negative.

Have a go chaps, stop wittering and sulking, you too can go to the ball! :lol:


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## Racers (12 Nov 2013)

It's like being back in the playground stupid insults flying about.

Why can't you accept we are all different and need to do things differently?

For pity's sake shut up about guides/freehand for once.

Pete


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

Racers":27zf9wz0 said:


> It's like being back in the playground stupid insults flying about.
> 
> Why can't you accept we are all different and need to do things differently?
> 
> ...


Somebody is always kicking it off again - it was Dave this morning. I suppose I'll shut up about sharpening when everybody else does.


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## Racers (12 Nov 2013)

Need the last word Jacob? that says a lot about you!

Pete


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## Corneel (12 Nov 2013)

Now i feel insulted Pete. Where did I insult somebody?


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## Racers (12 Nov 2013)

Corneel":2o9u27y2 said:


> So, there was no looking back. Guides are indeed a waste of time, and above that they are of no use when you need to sharpen something which doesn't fit in the guide. It is just not logical to sharpen the easy stuff with a guide and the harder stuff, like gouges, freehand. This is all completely rational.



That seems to insult guide users.

Pete


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

Racers":1yz878fg said:


> Corneel":1yz878fg said:
> 
> 
> > So, there was no looking back. Guides are indeed a waste of time, and above that they are of no use when you need to sharpen something which doesn't fit in the guide. It is just not logical to sharpen the easy stuff with a guide and the harder stuff, like gouges, freehand. This is all completely rational.
> ...


Of course it isn't an insult, it's merely an opinion. Should we put "IMHO" between every word to protect the sensitive?
If you said the opposite "Guides are indeed not a waste of time" nobody would be insulted. May or may not agree but that's another thing.


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## Sheffield Tony (12 Nov 2013)

Has anyone done any interesting woodwork recently :?: :?


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## Racers (12 Nov 2013)

Jacob my point is that it didn't need to be posted. 

Now see if you can walk away

Pete


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## Corneel (12 Nov 2013)

Wait a second. After David posts that I am part of a mob and that I am not rational and talking b****it, it is an insult when I express my opinion about honing guides being a waste of time? Even after I have rationally explained that that is indeed true (in my opinion)?

To be honest, I am not really insulted. Nobody can insult me on an Internet forum. It's all good fun, ribbing each other back and forth.


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## iNewbie (12 Nov 2013)

Jacob":3q4px6yf said:


> iNewbie":3q4px6yf said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you need a set square. Ah, you need a guide yourself. :mrgreen:
> ...



You _do_ need it, its why you keep it and continue to use it. In reality, its your training wheels - even you should see the irony of it! :_Go Freehand lads while I hang onto the side of the swimming pools edge..._. 

I'm not angry - far from it, just bored to tears of being drearily lectured on what people need/should-use and should be doing. 

I'm just wondering how many other hang-ups you have on what people do/use... Your like the Mary Whitehouse of woodworking forums. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Nov 2013)

Jacob":wvbl48kn said:


> John15":wvbl48kn said:
> 
> 
> > I don't use a guide but frequently check my hand held angle with a plastic 30 degree set square. This works fine for me, a sort of half-way house you might say.
> ...



I thought you rounded your bevels anyway? :?


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## MMUK (12 Nov 2013)

Time out guys :!: 

Anyone would think you were a bunch of spotty adolescent teenagers on a Facebook crusade against each other :roll: 

FWIW, and this is my PERSONAL opinion mind, I'm not joining either camp on this debate.

When I first started out after leaving school, I found guides to be pretty handy as I could never get the same bevel angle twice by hand and always ended up with convex cutting edges. However, I persevered and after many years of on-off practise I can now get pretty standard results by hand across my range of blades. I don't aim for a perfect 30* or whatever but I now get consistency and straight edges so I'm happy.

I can see why a guide is of value to some, it reduces human error to a large extent, providing the guide is accurate that is. Me personally though, I prefer to feel the feedback you get sharpening unaided, I can feel when the burrs are gone and I have a smooth working face. You can hear the tone of the stroke change. You get neither of these using a guide and both of these points are important to me.


_*Waits in the corner for the dung to start being thrown at me*_ :mrgreen:


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

phil.p":2wapl91a said:


> Jacob":2wapl91a said:
> 
> 
> > John15":2wapl91a said:
> ...


The number of times I've explained this! 
Yes to round bevels (it makes sharpening easier) but rounded _under_ the angle, not_ over_. 
Imagine a flat 30º bevel - using a lazy freehand stroke as I do this would end up with the heel of the bevel rounded off but the toe (edge ) still at 30º.
Rounding _over_ is where the 30º gets cranked up higher and is to be avoided.


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## iNewbie (12 Nov 2013)

MMUK":25463z0j said:


> Anyone would think you were a bunch of spotty adolescent teenagers on a Facebook crusade against each other :roll:



I'm on no crusade and I don't give two farts _how_ someone else gets their edge. Its just damn ridiculous when someone _intentionally_ seeks to troll here on a daily basis because it amuses his whim. 


I'm done here.


Thanks for anyone who has given great advice/help.

Mods. Delete my account. 

Thanks.


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## MMUK (12 Nov 2013)

iNewbie":v4a7h5a6 said:


> Its just damn ridiculous when someone _intentionally_ seeks to troll here on a daily basis because it amuses his whim.
> 
> 
> I'm done here.
> ...




So you're going to let the troll win?

That's the whole point in trolling. If you let him/her win then it's not going to stop is it?


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## bugbear (12 Nov 2013)

iNewbie":2bc66abw said:


> MMUK":2bc66abw said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone would think you were a bunch of spotty adolescent teenagers on a Facebook crusade against each other :roll:
> ...



"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." - Isaac Newton

BugBear


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## Corneel (12 Nov 2013)

That's a pitty. I didn't know you took it so seriously. Sorry for that.


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## JimF. (12 Nov 2013)

Gosh. It is all getting terribly serious isn't it? Toys thrown out of prams, the distant sound of slamming doors!


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## Racers (12 Nov 2013)

Julian":1hc75lg3 said:


> Gosh. It is all getting terribly serious isn't it? Toys thrown out of prams, the distant sound of slamming doors!



What is the point of your post in this sharpening thread?

I think we should stick to being nice, if some one gets offended then we need to look at what we have said.


Pete


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## Carl P (12 Nov 2013)

I used to learn a lot from these sharpening 'debates' and naively thought they were a robust exchanges of ideas, now I realise it's just the empty repetition of dogma for the sake of cheap point scoring, I'll still watch the car crash for the good stuff, and much as I really respect everyone's ability, to misquote an opinion about Brian Wilson - professional woodworkers, amateur human beings

Cheerio,

Carl


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

As far as I'm concerned it still is all _robust exchanges of ideas_. Also a bit of a challenge in that quite a few people don't get the idea straightaway, not to mention the hostility and abuse! It does seem odd to be having to repeatedly explain an extremely simple process which has been in use for generations and is still widely used.
I think people don't realise that "the new sharpening" is a very recent phenomenon, coming mainly from the amateur woodwork media circus.

PS I realise as I write this that it will cause some people to huff, puff and get angry, but that seems to be their problem, not mine. It takes all sorts!


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## Carl P (12 Nov 2013)

Everything you say is true Jacob - and for the record I am attempting to sharpen more or less according to your traditional methods, however I really don't see the need for the hostility and abuse and cheap point scoring on both sides, I used to find it amusing, then tedious, now somewhat depressing - probably the time of year. I know a lot of this is common on forums of all types, so no doubt will become a part of life, it's disapointing as otherwise I've got a huge ammount from this forum - still, hang onto the good stuff and don't let the b*****ds grind you down I guess!

Cheeio,

Carl


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## markturner (12 Nov 2013)

markturner":sgboo3ph said:


> O lordy.........what have you done........



Told you........ (hammer)  


Although, does Jacob not realize we have heard it all before? I would agree about the trolling.........its like he takes some kind of malicious delight in it. Seriously, I cant believe the same old stuff gets re posted in some sharpening thread every week or two.........


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

markturner":3r8ot1k6 said:


> ......
> Although, does Jacob not realize we have heard it all before?...........


But the OP hasn't. Or is he a troll too?


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## MMUK (12 Nov 2013)

For the love of sanity guys will you please grow up?

Stop being so immature by having to be the one to have the last word :roll:


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## bugbear (12 Nov 2013)

Jacob":2o8emfjx said:


> markturner":2o8emfjx said:
> 
> 
> > He also likes to use provocative statements. ......
> ...



Perhaps a little more sincerity, and little less deliberate provocation might be helpful.



Jacob":2o8emfjx said:


> I realise as I write this that it will cause some people to huff, puff and get angry, but that seems to be their problem, not mine.



Nope, too much to hope for,

BugBear


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## dj. (12 Nov 2013)

markturner":1mgp43vj said:


> does Jacob not realize we have heard it all before? .



To be fair we`ve heard the other side of the argument all before as well, does it therefore make the others who keep repeating their lines on their way of sharpening trolls?

Perhaps it would be better when sharpening is bought up again, as it seems to be weekly, for the moderators to delete the new thread & point the new poster in the direction of the already large collection of sharpening threads, or at least make understanding & using the search facility part of signing up procedure......no I can`t see it happening either  

Regards.

dj.


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

If the mods could be bothered I'd suggest they delete all posts which aren't about the issue itself, and/or are abusive, sarcastic, moaning, accuse people of trolling etc etc. That'd reduce this thread by 2/3rds! This post would go too of course.


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## David C (12 Nov 2013)

Giacamo as usual, writes sense for half of the time and ordure for the other half. 

Many of his assertions are mischievous and thoroughly misleading.

"Planecraft" by Hampton, first published in 1934, advocates two bevels and the use of a honing guide for "the amateur and the younger professional".

So quite when Jakob's thinks "new" sharpening started, would be of great interest.

David Charlesworth


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

Dave you should stop accusing people of writing "ordure" etc. It lowers the tone. That's twice you've done it in this thread, not to mention various other heavy handed comments.
If you want to talk about sharpening (or anything) you should try to be a bit more civil.


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## Racers (12 Nov 2013)

Pot kettle

Pete


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## JimF. (12 Nov 2013)

Racers":1rjejwhr said:


> Julian":1rjejwhr said:
> 
> 
> > Gosh. It is all getting terribly serious isn't it? Toys thrown out of prams, the distant sound of slamming doors!
> ...



Just as much point as yours...



Racers":1rjejwhr said:


> I think we should stick to being nice, if some one gets offended then we need to look at what we have said.
> Pete


Getting "offended" over a bit of banter strikes me as peculiarly obnoxious and controlling behaviour. Probably best not to encourage or pander to it. IMHO


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## Racers (12 Nov 2013)

Its not banter its some one forcing his opinion on every thread and using language such as "training wheels" 

Pete


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## Karl (12 Nov 2013)

Haven't visited this forum in quite a while. Sad to see this rubbish is still going on. Suppose it'll never change.


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## Sgian Dubh (12 Nov 2013)

Carl P":2dn24zlp said:


> ... I'll still watch the car crash for the good stuff ... Carl


Most threads on this subject seems to end in a car crash. That result is almost always the case, and not limited to this forum: they are usually a car crash in every forum, and I've been watching essentially the same thing happen in sharpening threads for about fifteen years or so. I'm not sure why, but I rarely tire of the, er, entertainment. 

Guide or no guide? They're unnecessary for many people, and it's rare, but not unheard of, for me to see one used in a professional workshop. Others swear by their guides, and can't live without them, and the majority of guide users seem to be in the amateur fold in my experience, although others may have a different experience. 

The only thing that really matters I suppose is that your tools are sharp when you need them to be so, and if they're blunt, then an effective and efficient means of resharpening is needed, especially if your work is in a business environment, with speed probably being less important if woodworking is essentially a hobby.

In the end sharp is sharp, however you get there, and sometimes getting there needs to be swift too, but not always, which depends on the needs of the woodworker. Slainte.


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## Racers (12 Nov 2013)

That's what I have said all along, do what ever way you feel works.

Pete


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## David C (12 Nov 2013)

Still waiting to hear information about "new" sharpening......................

I await accurate information instead of prejudiced opinion.

Apologies for the repetition of ordure. The posting of a more appropriate word would undoubtedly be censured. Ordure seems quite aposite......

David


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## G S Haydon (12 Nov 2013)

Clearly everyone has a system that works for them and I'm delighted about that. One thing that does get mentioned is that one convex bevel on a hollow oil stone was the norm. I think this did happen but I always find primary, secondary and flat stones in the old books. The oldest text that I have found so far which is Moxon suggests I think a hollow grind like Frank Klaus (although I stand to be corrected).

Here's one for you Jacob, a convex bevel? http://youtu.be/Jo0IXn0pSic?t=38s


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

G S Haydon":2vpdhbfq said:


> Clearly everyone has a system that works for them and I'm delighted about that. One thing that does get mentioned is that one convex bevel on a hollow oil stone was the norm. I think this did happen but I always find primary, secondary and flat stones in the old books. The oldest text that I have found so far which is Moxon suggests I think a hollow grind like Frank Klaus (although I stand to be corrected).


Convex bevel is the norm as it is the almost inevitable outcome of freehand honing - a flat bevel is more difficult to do and is pointless in any case. The only thing to avoid is raising the angle by rounding over too far. The books don't mention this particularly because it's what everybody used to do naturally - literally "unremarkable". 
There's a lot of stuff which never gets mentioned - take that very common axe trick which came up in another thread. BB seemed to think that because he'd never read about it it must be new to the planet! made-use-of-a-technique-from-jacob-t74600.html
Another item which seemed to surprise was this very long draw bore pin 
post789810.html?hilit=drawbore#p789810 
They may not appear in written records but I know for a fact that they were utterly commonplace in joinery shops, as essential for staircase construction. 


> Here's one for you Jacob, a convex bevel? http://youtu.be/Jo0IXn0pSic?t=38s


I do the same for small chisels - pulling is easier than pushing, but bigger ones I push forwards. It works for Deneb here, it works for mortice chisels (my initial "inspiration") it works for all blades (as far as I can see). I really don't know what all the fuss is about.


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

David C":3hs6f7tm said:


> Still waiting to hear information about "new" sharpening......................
> 
> I await accurate information instead of prejudiced opinion.
> 
> ...


2 Ps in "apposite" Dave.


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## David C (12 Nov 2013)

Discussion requires to and fro dialogue such as a response to a question. 

Your pejorative use of the term "New sharpening" is certainly rubbish.

David


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## Jacob (12 Nov 2013)

I don't have to discuss anything with people who are abusive, dismissive and sarcastic.


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## thick_mike (12 Nov 2013)

This thread's been a slow burner hasn't it?

I thought peace had broken out when nothing happened for a few days...then whoosh!...back to normal.


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## jamesicus (12 Nov 2013)

Where I worked in the late 1940s apprentices were taught how to sharpen their edged tools (chisels and plane irons) under the tutelage of the older craftsmen and thereafter were supposed to properly maintain them. A communal foot pedal operated water trough grindstone was used for major bevel profiling. The simple high carbon steel used in woodworking cutting tools in those days precluded using power driven carborundum wheels which could destroy the steel hardness due to the friction heat generated. Major bevel profiling was slow, but preserving the integrity of the steel was paramount.









*Foot treadle operated water trough grindstone
(Photos used by permission of eBay member kernowlincoln: © owner)*

Oil stones -- with one side "medium" and the other side "fine" -- were used for sharpening. The medium side of the stone was used to maintain the (approx.) 25° primary bevel and the fine side to produce the (approx.) 35° secondary bevel cutting edge. All sharpening was free-hand. Light machine oil was used to lubricate the stone -- with frequent wiping off and re-applications during sharpening. The burr or "wire edge" formed during sharpening was removed by resting the back of the chisel/plane iron flat on the oil stone and rubbing a few times to turn the burr back -- this procedure was repeated until the burr was satisfactorily removed and the edge felt suitably sharp to the touch. The final step was to strop the edge on leather. The oil stone was wiped clean and stored dry after each use.

The test of sharpness adequacy was if the edge would cut tough oak easily and cleanly. The whole procedure was quick and simple. This is the way I still sharpen and maintain my edged tools.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Nov 2013)

Bevels the wrong way around?


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## jamesicus (13 Nov 2013)

phil.p":d8tdqf7s said:


> Bevels the wrong way around?


Thanks.


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## Corneel (13 Nov 2013)

Thanks James. That's much according to all the textbooks. These grindstones were in use for eons. 

My little theory, the grindstone would have been used only once a week or so, not on a daily basis. And most workmen would try to keep the bevel straight but ended up with a bit of convexity anyway. 

I wonder, would you remove the 35 degree sec. bevel on each sharpening again? Start over fresh so to say?

Just as a sidenote from a modern woodworker (me). You don't need to be afraid for a high speed grinder. With reasonable precautions, very coarse grit stone, keep the surface fresh, light pressure, quench often, there is no need to worry about overheating high carbon steel. I do it all the time.


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## Corneel (13 Nov 2013)

David C":20ngoaed said:


> Discussion requires to and fro dialogue such as a response to a question.
> 
> David



You're still circumnavigating my question about how you sharpen a gouge, too.


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## David C (13 Nov 2013)

The answer is too obvious, and not relevant to the majority of cabinetmaking sharpening, (chisels and plane blades).

I am not a carver, and have very occasionally used in cannel gouges.

These were sharpened with a flat stone and some slipstones. How else?

David


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## Jacob (13 Nov 2013)

Jamesicus much the same as I was taught except the grindstones were powered. Excessive use of the grindstone was regarded as cheating and was reserved for major remedial work only. Jigs were for amateurs but not for "beginners" as anybody training would want to do it properly. They weren't even discussed - they were seen as just gadgets available for DIYers.
Hollow stones, convex bevels weren't an issue. Rounded over bevels were.

Simple stuff really, and highly effective. Took me some years to get back to basics!


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2013)

Corneel":38uldy8h said:


> Thanks James. That's much according to all the textbooks. These grindstones were in use for eons.
> 
> My little theory, the grindstone would have been used only once a week or so, not on a daily basis. And most workmen would try to keep the bevel straight but ended up with a bit of convexity anyway.



Yes - that's the consistent story across nearly every period reference I've seen, across multiple decades and authors.

*Try* to keep the the bevel flat and low, fail, (hollow) grind out the failure, repeat indefinitely.

BugBear


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2013)

Jacob":1zu2etcj said:


> Jamesicus much the same as I was taught except the grindstones were powered. Excessive use of the grindstone was regarded as cheating and was reserved for major remedial work only. Jigs were for amateurs but not for "beginners" as anybody training would want to do it properly. They weren't even discussed - they were seen as just gadgets available for DIYers.
> Simple stuff really, and highly effective. Took me some years to get back to basics!



Now this is interesting and new.

You were taught a technique at college, but spent most of your professional career doing something different. What, in your post college, practical experience made you decide that the college technique was inferior to the technique you adopted professionally?

BugBear


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2013)

Jacob":ndbrp44y said:


> If you want to talk about sharpening (or anything) you should try to be a bit more civil.



This is quite simply the most breathtaking piece of hypocrisy I've seen in a couple of years.

But probably deliberate.

BugBear


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## Jacob (13 Nov 2013)

I should add - the grindwheels were large and wet. The small bench grinder was seen as for metal work only, not for sharpening except for major re-shaping operations.
A solo operator might not have either, but would manage quite well without.


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## Corneel (13 Nov 2013)

David C":3ulcb4uv said:


> The answer is too obvious, and not relevant to the majority of cabinetmaking sharpening, (chisels and plane blades).
> 
> I am not a carver, and have very occasionally used in cannel gouges.
> 
> ...



So you have no trouble with it?

And router planes, molding planes, marking knifes, drawknifes, skewed irons, German scrub planes and everything else. And each one of them is just a little or quite a bit more difficult then chisels and planeblades. Combine that with the freedom aquired with freehand sharpening, the speed and the better use of the stone surface, and you'll have to confess that freehand sharpening is the more rational method.


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## David C (13 Nov 2013)

No, I find the freehand sharpening of awkward blades, less efficient, more time consuming and a general PITA.

David


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## Jacob (13 Nov 2013)

David C":32g346xv said:


> No, I find the freehand sharpening of awkward blades, less efficient, more time consuming and a general PITA.
> 
> David


Practice, practice! With a bit of persistence these things become quite easy and natural. You just have to put the time in Dave. If you have to use a jig for the very simplest of them all (chisels and planes) no wonder you find it harder to do the others.


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## Racers (13 Nov 2013)

Still trying to force your method on other people Jacob?

And insulting while you are at it!


Pete


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## Graham Orm (13 Nov 2013)

Do you think the guns will go quiet and they'll have a game of football in the no-man's land that is the 'General Metalworking' forum at Christmas?


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## paul saunders (13 Nov 2013)

hmmm, eight pages and we still don't know the best technique................... sigh!


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## Jacob (13 Nov 2013)

You could look at Deneb's demo again http://youtu.be/Jo0IXn0pSic?t=38s
The chisel won't fit a jig so he does it by hand. Look how quick and easy it is! Rounded bevel too! :roll: Easier than sharpening a pencil.
Works the same for bigger blades except you need more force - pushing rather than pulling.


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2013)

You could look at Deneb's demo 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aDPZzMvVTA

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Nov 2013)

:shock: A jig??... Water stones??... We're all going to hell in a handcart!


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## Corneel (13 Nov 2013)

Now we're finally getting somewhere! When you consider sharpening a certain tool a pita, it's limiting you in its use and ultimately limiting you in your designs. That's part of the freedom we were talking about. 

The only way to tackle this problem is a bit of perseverance. Store your jigs in a closed cupboard for half a year or so and sharpen all your tools freehand. It'll be PITA at first but it'll be easy after a while. The result is a menal freedom that will blast you away. In every aspect of your woodworking. 

I had a similar problem adjusting my wooden planes. I love woodiesbut they do have a learning curve. After a few months it wasn't a PITA anymore, and it also freed my mind to become more of an intuitive woodworker and less of an enginerd. Certainly an enrichment of my hobby.


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## MIGNAL (13 Nov 2013)

bugbear":39swwm6d said:


> You could look at Deneb's demo
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aDPZzMvVTA
> 
> BugBear




   Yep. So he does the hard stuff freehand but uses a jig for the easy stuff (where have I heard that before?). Maybe he should switch to being a wood carver, he's obviously got this freehand sharpening technique sorted!


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## AndyT (13 Nov 2013)

Some people think like this:
"I like freehand honing. I can sharpen any sort of tool. I don't need to spend any time or money on guides."

Some other people think like this:
"For almost all of my honing - straight chisels and plane blades - I can optimise my results by using a guide. For a few other tools, I have to make do with freehand honing, but that's ok."

*Both arguments are logically consistent* and both have been aired on here quite a lot of times.

I don't mind which way anyone prefers. I don't mind if you think one way in the morning and the other way in the afternoon. 

Now, as Tony asked on page 4, has anyone done any interesting woodwork recently?


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## Kalimna (13 Nov 2013)

Well, to answer your question Andy, I finished making a jig yesterday  

Admittedly it is a guitar neck-setting jig, and therefore a little more complex than what has been described so far in this thread, and yes, it has been made mostly out of plywood. But, it was woodwork, and it will overcome the last main procrastination obstacle to me building a few acoustic guitars in the few spare moments I have these days 

Cheers,
Adam


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## Corneel (13 Nov 2013)

I'm in a sawbuilding craze of late. But that was an item for another thread.


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## AndyT (13 Nov 2013)

Excellent, I hope to hear more of your next build Adam.


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## Jacob (13 Nov 2013)

I'm doing a staircase on and off amongst other things. It's working out fine but taking too long - the annoying thing is if I did another one (unlikely) I'd know how to do it, and quickly! 
Several little projects on the side as am hoping to do a bit more trading when this project is finished - working on the idea of short runs, 10 off at a time. Thinking of doing spindly little cabinets with flared legs - came to me in a dream. :shock:


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## CStanford (13 Nov 2013)

Corneel":2f05zo41 said:


> David C":2f05zo41 said:
> 
> 
> > The answer is too obvious, and not relevant to the majority of cabinetmaking sharpening, (chisels and plane blades).
> ...



All the difficulties with freehand honing chisels and plane irons is obviated by simply honing on the grinding angle. The cutter clicks, toe and heel, registration is positive - as positive as using a jig. When the hollow gets a little small, just refresh it. Unless nicked, the grinding wheel should never shorten a cutter. If a burr is being produced at the grinding wheel it's being used incorrectly (except in the case where a nick is being worked out).

Jacob's method works exceptionally well too.


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## Sgian Dubh (13 Nov 2013)

Jacob":3g0p1rnm said:


> Thinking of doing spindly little cabinets with flared legs - came to me in a dream.


Market them as made by Krakob Jenov. They could go down a storm, or maybe just go down, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## jamesicus (13 Nov 2013)

Corneel":1cdeafmn said:


> .......... Thanks James .......... My little theory, the grindstone would have been used only once a week or so, not on a daily basis. And most workmen would try to keep the bevel straight but ended up with a bit of convexity anyway ...........


Thanks Corneel. Your observations are pretty much correct - as I remember. 



> .......... I wonder, would you remove the 35 degree sec. bevel on each sharpening again? Start over fresh so to say? ..........


As I remember, we only "freshed up" the bevel on subsequent grindstone treatments - but I am not dead certain about that -I haven't used a grindstone in this manner for many years.


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## jamesicus (13 Nov 2013)

Jacob":2efcalvu said:


> .......... Excessive use of the grindstone was regarded as cheating and was reserved for major remedial work only ...........


That is pretty much the way I considered it, Jacob.


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2013)

jamesicus":1jua3q6j said:


> Corneel":1jua3q6j said:
> 
> 
> > ...... I wonder, would you remove the 35 degree sec. bevel on each sharpening again? Start over fresh so to say? ..........
> ...



That would make perfect sense - leaving a "sliver of the old secondary bevel" as Paul Chapman put it recently.

BugBear


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## Jacob (14 Nov 2013)

CStanford":3hfdjg6m said:


> .......
> 
> All the difficulties with freehand honing chisels and plane irons is obviated by simply honing on the grinding angle. The cutter clicks, toe and heel, registration is positive - as positive as using a jig. When the hollow gets a little small, just refresh it. ......


Well yes that makes sense, except that to hollow grind in such a way that the heel and toe are exactly on a specific line would need a very controlled operation to get the geometry right. How is this done? Then when it is done how do you control the freehand honing to maintain the angle, without taking more of either the toe or the heel?
Sounds very much like the logic of the new sharpeners - i.e. logical but not necessarily practical. 
IMHO in the end in comes down to hand and eye judgement of the angle - that thing which the new sharpeners say is difficult/impossible. Luckily they are utterly wrong!


> ....Unless nicked, the grinding wheel should never shorten a cutter. If a burr is being produced at the grinding wheel it's being used incorrectly (except in the case where a nick is being worked out).....


I use belt sander if necessary and always remove the whole bevel including generating a burr. This might mean having to straighten up the edge by applying it at 90º, but the whole point it to get past the wear on _both _sides of the bevel. If you are using a machine you might as well use it, rather than leaving a bit to be done laboriously by hand.

PS obviously one hits _an_ angle with heel and toe, but one doesn't know what it is unless measured or created with some clever jig. I think it is probably corrected unconciously, by hand and eye skill.


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## Racers (14 Nov 2013)

Some sort of rest on the grind stone would probably do it easily.

Pete


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## Jacob (14 Nov 2013)

Racers":2s4bne78 said:


> Some sort of rest on the grind stone would probably do it easily.
> 
> Pete


Yes, but not easily. The geometry of each thickness of blade would be different for starters.
My feeling is that people imagine they are relying on a machine or jig set up but are in fact also using hand and eye skills, however much they say they can't do it!


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## Corneel (14 Nov 2013)

I use the toolrest from the grinder to establish the concavity. I peek from the side if the grinding wheel touches the bevel somewhere in the middle, tap the toolrest a little higher or lower if neccessary with a hammer (no fiddling around with the bolts). Then I grind until just before raising a wire edge. Then onto a 400 stone where I raise a sizeable wire with very few strokes. Continue onto the finer stones. I have a very good reason not to raise a wireedge on the grinder. Somehow the grinding process becomes very slow when you're almost there. Further grinding by hand on a coarse flat stone is quicker, probably because you only remove a little bit of steel.

Working on the flat stone is very easy. Rest the bevel on the stone, keep your elbows locked and move the iron back and forth vigourously, until you can feel the wireedge. That's really all there is to it. :lol: 

On the polishing stone I polish the bevel first a bit. Then raise the iron a few degrees and do two more stokes, just to be sure I am really polishing right at the edge. Not more, because when you do too much it hounds you on the next sharpening when it becomes tedious to remove enough metal again to raise a wire edge on the coarser stone.

All this works very well, but it has one disadvantage: you need to use the grinder quite often, which I think slows me down too much.


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## MIGNAL (14 Nov 2013)

I used to hollow grind on a hand crank grinder. To re-establish the bevel I would creep up until just a glint of polished steel was showing at the very tip. Easy to do on a hand crank and less danger of overheating the steel. I think the wheel was 100G. I would go straight from the hand crank to an 8,000G waterstone, nothing between the two grits. Simply isn't necessary. 
Freehand on a hollow grind is _really _easy. It registers very positively on the stone. Material is removed from both the tip and the back of the hollow grind.
Now I only use the hand crank for damaged blades. I use a medium stone and the 8,000G. No hollow grind but two bevels. Freehand in short forward/backward strokes, slowly creeping to the middle of the stone and back. I only use half the length of the stone but I do try to keep things random. I don't think my primary bevel is perfectly flat but it's near enough.


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## CHJ (14 Nov 2013)

Corneel":3squpq3j said:


> I use the toolrest from the grinder to establish the concavity. I peek from the side if the grinding wheel touches the bevel somewhere in the middle, tap the toolrest a little higher or lower if neccessary with a hammer (no fiddling around with the bolts). Then I grind until just before raising a wire edge. Then onto a 400 stone where I raise a sizeable wire with very few strokes. Continue onto the finer stones. I have a very good reason not to raise a wireedge on the grinder. Somehow the grinding process becomes very slow when you're almost there. Further grinding by hand on a coarse flat stone is quicker, probably because you only remove a little bit of steel.
> ......


If your basic angle is always the same it might be easier to set the rest with a template, easier to eyeball.


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## Zeddedhed (14 Nov 2013)

I use a Tormek.....


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## Graham Orm (14 Nov 2013)

Zeddedhed":17np2dw7 said:


> I use a Tormek.....



I'd use one as well........if I could get someone to give me one............a Tormek that is (leave it!)


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## Corneel (14 Nov 2013)

CHJ":1w4y3v3y said:


> If your basic angle is always the same it might be easier to set the rest with a template, easier to eyeball.



When you want to establish a specific angle that is a good idea. But when you are merely maintaning the existing angle, the existing bevel is allready a template.


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## Zeddedhed (14 Nov 2013)

Grayorm":1bjkfbfo said:


> Zeddedhed":1bjkfbfo said:
> 
> 
> > I use a Tormek.....
> ...



They're absolutely fantastic tools. I hate sharpening, but love sharp things. The Tormek lets me get the job done in a relatively short time and the edge it gives is good enough for the work I do. When working away from the workshop I use a diamond stone in emergencies but don't really have the confidence to do regular freehand sharpening, and to be honest there are other things I'd rather invest my time in practising (like how to set up my cheap and nasty Irwin spokeshave!!)

That said it is fun watching everyone getting so irate about their own preferred method of sharpening. It would appear that for some sharpening is more akin to a religion. Ho hum.


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## Corneel (14 Nov 2013)

Jacob":1qhyjyyu said:


> Racers":1qhyjyyu said:
> 
> 
> > Some sort of rest on the grind stone would probably do it easily.
> ...




Yes, that's how it works more or less. Look at it, does it look 25-ish? Then continue, else set the tool rest a bit steeper or lower. If I want to know what I end up with, I'll meassure the angle.


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## CStanford (14 Nov 2013)

Jacob":j6xt11fz said:


> CStanford":j6xt11fz said:
> 
> 
> > .......
> ...



It can become a bit like contemplating the hydraulics associated with urinating -- think about it too much and you'll never whiz again.

I eyeball the cutter from the side, burp the grinder (flip it on and off), advance the cutter and let the dying wheel make its mark to see if it'll hit dead center of small, but existing hollow grind. Make small adjustment to rest if necessary, turn grinder on, produce hollow grind not quite to the edge, hone cutter *at the grinding angle* (using the hollow as a jig) on a Washita then Black Ark. 

Folks who grind at 25* then lift and hone at 30* without 'rounding under' the bevel as your method does are usually blunting the cutter or raising the angle inadvertently too high over several honings, resulting in trying to pare, for instance, with a 35*+ chisel -- pure silliness.

Charles


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## Carl P (14 Nov 2013)

[/quote]

It can become a bit like contemplating the hydraulics associated with urinating -- think about it too much and you'll never whiz again.

[/quote]


Thank you very much for this, every bit as good as your definition of flatness - something worthwhile from a sharpening thread!

Cheerio,

Carl


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## Jacob (14 Nov 2013)

CStanford":3s39afti said:


> .....
> It can become a bit like contemplating the hydraulics associated with urinating -- think about it too much and you'll never whiz again.
> .....


Absolutely. 
Ideally, sharpening is just something you do a little and often, without giving it a thought. Head down, brain off, every time!


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