# What Smoothing Plane



## Chems (25 May 2008)

Im in need of a good plane to finish off bits of wood that have tear out from P/T and Im looking at the Axminster No4 Smoothing plane as a cheap option, Im not really good enough to be looking at spending anymore than that for my first plane. Is it a good buy, will it do what it says on the tin or should I look at a No5?


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## tnimble (25 May 2008)

Probably better to get a Lee Vally veritas low angle jack, a Lie Nielsen no 5 1/2 jack plane, an old Stanley or Record no 5 or 5 1/2 in combination with information from the net on how to tune it up properly and a visit to a willing nerby forum member to verify is the plane has been properly tuned up, or buy a tuned up second hand plane from on of the forum members or someone like Ray Iles at the old tool shop.

The price range for buying a plane is not related to how good you are. The price is related to the time spend and frustration to getting it in working order. (at last when comparing low price and medium price planes. Looks, ecstatics and the feel of the tool come in when comparing mid price ranged to the planes in the $1000 and more range.


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## jerryc (26 May 2008)

Chems,

Don't know if it is available in UK but one smoothing plane to consider is the HNT Gordon smoother. It's a wooden plane with a massively thick blade so there is no likelihood of chatter which can occur with thinner blades. It has a steeper angle than most which means it can tackle much wilder grains and harder wood than most. Greatest attribute is that the blade can be reversed so that for finish work it becomes a very efficient scraper plane. So you get two planes for the price of one. I have no connexion with Terry Gordon except that after misgivings about buying a wooden plane, I now own three, a smoother, a jack plane and a try plane. 

In case you think I am one eyed I should say I also own a Lie Neilsen black plane and a Lee valley jack plane as well as a range of now seldom used records and stanleys. Check out his web site


Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left


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## Chems (26 May 2008)

HNT Doesnt seem to be showing up on any searches for me in the UK.

tnimble, the ones you mentioned all look very nice but also extremely expensive. The Old Tool shop looks like a good bet. £30 for a number 5 Stanley which should be good right?


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## Jeff Gorman (26 May 2008)

If you need to reduce planer induced tearout on a pine or suchlike, then you need a plane (almost any) with a very fine shaving aperture and a sharp blade. For most of the time the position of the cap iron doesn't matter.

The frog adjustment (ie the casting that supports the blade) on these cheap planes can be pretty crude, but if you can loosen the two fixing screws and turn the screw that lies under the adjustment knob, a cheap plane will get you by for a while.


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## MrJay (26 May 2008)

It's always as well to consider saving up the extra for a good quality plane even if it seems a scary proposition; cheap tools are a false economy. For a metal bench plane I'd guess the Ray Iles option is probably the best you'll find for a smallish outlay.

The smoother represents the most precise, finickity, carefully tuned and honed bench plane in your armory. It's job is to take the finest possible shavings and leave a perfect finished surface on an imperfect and often cantankerous material. Price really isn't a gauge, but I wouldn't want to spend less than £79 on one. Expect a decent metal bodied smoother to cost twice that. It is possible to do up an old plane, but the tolerances needed to get a smoother performing are tight - it's something to consider when you've a bit of experience under your belt. Fortunately Sand Paper does a fair job in the mean time.

I reckon what you're looking for is a trying/jointer plane - a #7 or #8. The long length will true up your stuff after rough surfacing on the machines and leave a surface that's ready for final sanding or a quick pass with the smoother. Trying planes are quite fussy, but less so than smoothers - I use a second hand woody that I bought for a couple of quid and spent a couple of hours tops getting it into good fettle. As long as it's sound and everything fits tight wooden trying planes are relatively easy to sort out - though there's a knack to using them. Second hand Stanleys and Records cost a fair bit more, but as long as it's in fair shape they'll do at a push; that said you're not likely to get them performing so well on your own, Ray Iles will sell you a decent one with a reground sole. Premium planes - the cliftons, veritases (veritai?) and Lie-Nielsons are no doubt superb. I blew all my premium plane allowance on a block plane and a smoother.

Or you could go half way and use a #5 or #6 as a sort of turnip trying/smoother that does it all in one swoop. If your machines are good this is a sound approach. The bevel up planes from Veritas and Lie-Nielson are supposed to be excellent for this - they're well outside the prices you're looking at, but I'd urge you to get saving if you want a plane that'll be a good partner for power tools. Expect to have to do a lot of work on a second hand jack plane - they are originally intended for rough work and tend to be put together that way too. Again, Ray Iles will sell you one with a freshly ground sole which will save you the worst bit of the job.

Oh and you'll also need to sharpen the thing and you'll want to be able to hold your work still.


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## Chems (26 May 2008)

Well there is a lot to this that I didnt know about. 

I did buy a very cheap stanley recently and to be honest its about as much use as rubbing butter on the wood. 

Do you have any links to guides for "honing" up old planes? 

Thanks for all the info so far!


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## Benchwayze (26 May 2008)

Chems":o7iyj6ol said:


> HNT Doesnt seem to be showing up on any searches for me in the UK.
> 
> tnimble, the ones you mentioned all look very nice but also extremely expensive. The Old Tool shop looks like a good bet. £30 for a number 5 Stanley which should be good right?



Oldtools... Good store/site. 

I got a Stanley N0. 4 of 1930's vintage for just £18.00. (Because it was fitted with a modern blade.) 

Add one Hock blade and chipbreaker, season with a bit of fettling and it's the best bench plane in my shop, bar none. 

Regards
John


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## bugbear (27 May 2008)

Chems":emrpid9j said:


> HNT Doesnt seem to be showing up on any searches for me in the UK.



click this google search

BugBear


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## MrJay (27 May 2008)

Chems":8nkxbwxs said:


> Well there is a lot to this that I didnt know about.
> 
> I did buy a very cheap stanley recently and to be honest its about as much use as rubbing butter on the wood.
> 
> ...



Honing is what you do to keep the cutting iron sharp, fettling is what you do to tune the plane into good performance. What plane did you get?

First thing you should do is decide what you want your plane to do; hand tools are specialists. Most of the online guides I've read assume you want to go for smoother like performance and push the boat out, but it's not always a good idea. If you've got and an 8th to lose on a bit of stuff it's going to take you a long long time to get anywhere if your plane is taking 0.001" shavings. There are subtle differences to how you shape the cutting iron, how you set the plane up and the tolerances you work to that will determine whether the plane is good for fine shavings or fast work.

The bevel up planes mentioned above are the exceptions to the rule; you can alter their characteristics on the fly so they're adept at a range of planing jobs.

Anyhoo, next thing to do is to get it sharp. Hopefully someone will have a linky with pictures, but I'll do my best without. Sharp is what happens when the bevel on the cutting iron meets the back of the cutting iron as keenly as possible.

To this end you are going to need a range of flat sharpening stones progressing from coarse to as fine as possible or some other abrasive/flat thing going on - you can ues wet and dry paper on a backing of thick float glass (google scary sharp) or suspend abrasive particles on a lapping plate.

The first and most ghastly step is flattening the back of the cutting iron - you can't get the bevel to meet the back keenly if it's not as true as possible. I like to use the coarse side of a cheap old fine/coarse oil stone (it's relatively quick and there's no worries about wearing it out) - but I make sure it's flat first. I bought an expensive over size diamond stone which is great for this, but some coarse wet and dry stuck on thick plate glass or some other reference surface (cast iron table of a piece of shop machinary could work at a push) will get the job done.

Mark the surface of the stone all over with pencil. Then, using even pressure, work the face of the stone against the wet & dry until all the pencil marks have abraded away. Use oil (wd-40/3in1/parafin/whatever) to lubricate. You may need to re-pencil mark the stone if the marks are washed, rather than abraded off. At the end of the process you should have a stone which is evenly abraded all over and very flat. Do the other side and soak it all in oil.

What usually happens is that we flatten the area on the back of the cutting iron between where the channel for the cap iron screw ends and the tip of the bevel - that tends to give us no more than a couple of inches of flat. If you aim to flatten too narrow and area you'll have a hard time keeping even pressure when you work it on the stone and the whole thing will go horrible wrong. Too large an area and you'll be there forever - literally.

Place the appropriate chunk of the back of the iron to the coarse side of the stone (with the stone and iron at 90 degrees to each other) then work the iron up and down the stone trying to keep even pressure all over the top of the iron with your fingers - which probably means getting them very close to the sharp bit - be careful.

Check the back periodically - you'll see high spots emerge and get abraded. You're done when you have an evenly abraded patch that meets the entire width of the cutting edge. Scratches or pitting near the cutting edge will result in a weak edge, which is bad; you want to work them away. Progress can be very slow - stick with it.

It's fairly easy to go wrong and dub the corners of the cutting iron a bit. This isn't a good thing - it means you'll never get truly sharp right to the corners. This comes from uneven work - you'll get better with practice. You'll file rounded corners on the iron before you're finished and some of the dub will be lost when the edge is shaped to a camber, also the far corners of the iron are less critical unless you're after a top performance smoothing plane - so don't lose sleep over it.

Flip the stone over and do the whole thing again with the fine side of the stone. There are two faces to an edge (the bevel and the back) - you'll only get as sharp as the least refined face. If you've got the back properly flat with the coarse side this will go much faster. Again, check periodically and watch the shiny grow until it meets the entire width of the cutting edge.

Go get a beer - you'll have earned it!

(somebody else want to do the next be please - I am pooped)


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## Digit (27 May 2008)

The minute you start working wood you have a job for life Chems, sharpening!
If all the info adds up to a daunting scenario remember, we all thought that at first, but most of us survived!
If you've already bought a Stanley plane, I'll assume it's a number 4, you might just as will stick with it, any new Stanley is likely to be just the same as the one you've already got!
To change the subject, why has your P/T torn your wood?
Three reasons come to mind,
1 Bloody awful grain, not much you can do about that with a P/T.
2 The knives need sharpening.
3 Are you feeding the wood across the cutters in the wrong direction.
Till you start on what we all like to produce, which is heirloom type jobs, a decent P/T should produce a finish that needs no further planing.
How often do you see Norm with a Number 4 in his hands?

Roy.


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## Chems (27 May 2008)

*brain fuzz*

Well the Stanley plane I bought was a block plane from Focus and its terrible. Worthless.

I haven't purchased a P/T yet but I intend to in the next few weeks, its interesting you say that the cut should be good enough, as I have had a few bits of wood P/T by the saw mill and there is a lot of tear out I had to remove with my palm sander which took a long time. Watching T-Chisel I realized he never sands and only ever used Planes which got me thinking I really should get a decent one if Im going to start doing some serious work. 

I have a sharpening stone, and have been trying to sharpen my chisels up but Im not very good at it, but reading this I guess its a similar process. 

Thanks for all the info I will read it again to try and get a better understanding.


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## Digit (27 May 2008)

Woodwork is a skilled craft mate, and like all skills the learning curve is initially steep and difficult, but the sense of achievement considerable. 
I was fortunate in that I was taught at the bench by skilled craftsmen, not many have that start, persevere, it will come, and this forum is amongst the best that education can supply. 

Roy.


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## MrJay (27 May 2008)

Electric planers are prone to dings in the blades which leave tracks in your work - it's always as good to be able to clean them up - though like Digit says, you should be able to improve the product that comes out the machine by doing stuff like sending it through with the grain in the right direction.

Block planes are a different cup of tea - they're for trimming; but you still want to get the thing sharp if you're going to use it. You're probably right that the tool is pretty poor though; not the best introduction to hand tools.

The best block planes are [well made and] adjustable all over - some times you need to trim a little off, sometimes a bit more - so you can set the depth of cut, the size of the opening (you typically want the mouth to be just just big enough to pass shavings through, but no more - nasty things like tear out happen if the wood isn't supported just before the blade.) and so on. Cheaper models just get adjustable blade depth - they tend to get referred to as apron planes as they're lighter and small enough to live in the front pocket of your pinny (you have got a pinny haven't you?) and get pulled out whenever you need to tweak a thing.

Who the hell is T-Chisel? ICE MOFO T - AT THE WOOD WORKING BENCH BIATCH!!!

I'm not sure where you're at with the wood work thing, but I started out reading stuff on the internet and looking at books and decided that the best thing to do was to buy power tools and machines. After all, how you get good square stock is to send it through a planer, thicknesser and table saw. Gotta have a router and a circular saw and a jig saw and drills, probably a mortising machine, a sliding compound whatsit, sanding machines, band saw, electric hammer and yadda yadda. And then you've got to get some dust extraction or die from some foul throat and lung afliction, gotta get some hearing protection, eye protection you need space to be able to operate this stuff safely and because my budget is tight I don't have funds for the good quality machines and the budget stuff is really limited in capacity and to be honest (like your block plane) not very good. And there was me trying to work out of half (if that) of a single garage.

Which is why you find me in the hand tool section. At some fairly early point it became apparent that if you showed a lump of wood to a machine a chair didn't automagically pop out, it wasn't very safe and it wasn't much fun. The power tools went.

With hand tools half a garage is a really good size workshop, I'm not limited by the capacity of my machines, I can tackle projects from outbuildings to little boxes. I'm always in control - I can work quickly when I'm doing familiar things and slow right down when I'm trying something new. There's less danger of death, less frustration, less noise, less dust you can do it on the cheap (you can also spend lots - Damn you Chris Schwarz) and it's good exercise - getting stock to size is a workout, practicing detail work will hone your hand-eye coordination. Also hand tools have zen.


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## Digit (27 May 2008)

Well said MrJay, I've just come in from the workshop, Millionaire's on shortly,
Ear defenders, vacuum cleaner, big router. All so I can get this damn stable door out of the way and get back to some PROPER woodwork with the shop door open, the garden visible and able to hear the birds sing.
Much more pleasant.

Roy.


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## Chems (27 May 2008)

An interesting read, Im not strapped for space, Ive got a really nice big space. Ive got a fairly cheap 1/4 router but to be honest it does a really good job now its hooked into my home made table but I do want to purchase a Triton 2000W jobby second hand. But heres my current shop:

Table Saw, Fairly good if you take the time to get it set up, fine for ripping and cross cutting roughly. 

Router + table, as above good for the whole cost of less than £50.

SIP 1/2 Mortising Machine, this is where the love for machines comes in, I bought this machine really cheap new and its bloody fantastic I cant believe how good it is, do your Mortise on this and the tenon on the router and perfect everytime. 

Palm Sander, good bit of kit for light sanding. 

Nice set of Chisels, but blunt and I cant seem to sharpen them very well with the stone provided. 

Hand Held JigSaw which is quite good for roughing out templates to use on the router. 

The DO WANT list:

Axminster P/T AWEPT (Non cast iron table) + Good extraction system free.

Decent Smoothing Plane

Lots of clamps I own none.

Bench Top Band Saw

Triton 1/2 Router


And to be honest that would do me Ive got a plan for a new work bench in the design section and Id be away. Ive got the top 3 on my shopping list from Axminster totaling £466 



As for T Chisel, I found him off this site, he is a very skilled worker but supremely annoying to listen to he says "You know what I mean" like every 3 seconds and his catch phrase is whos better than me, but I learnt quite a bit from just watching him and he has a fantastic work ethic. 

He made this, and watching him work the wood and the techniques he uses (I watched all the episodes) really teaches you that power tools are ok but hand tools is where you finish the job power tools started. 

http://www.bobvila.com/RoughCutShow/


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## Anonymous (27 May 2008)

#4.5 with a 15 degree back bevel of the wood tears out a lot. #4 is much lighter, and i find heavier planes are much better on difficult timbers


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## MrJay (27 May 2008)

Chems":2c6ujupg said:


> I got lots of stuff



In that case I really do reckon a Veritas/Lie Nielson bevel up bench plane would be the way to go. They're fettle free and unfussy to use, they'll cope with just about any job you throw at them superbly and you won't need to keep and feed a whole stable of planes to cover basic jobs. At least, that's what I'd be doing if I wanted a partner for power tools. Start saving.


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## Chems (28 May 2008)

I never said that!

Ive got a budget of about £500 I want to put towards wood this month and £466 of that is allocated, Id hoped to spend the extra £34 on some wood. I probably will get a good plane in the future but to spend £100 plus at the moment is a bit to much!


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## DaveL (28 May 2008)

Chems":2oksz0lc said:


> Nice set of Chisels, but blunt and I cant seem to sharpen them very well with the stone provided.


Is that stone the only sharpening kit you have? Any plane you get will need to be resharpened, so a good stone(s) will be required. 
I have a wet shone grinder that the LOML bought for me, but a course oil stone or diamond stone will do the job, followed up by a fine stone. I use ceramic stones, the ultra fine one produces a mirror finish, giving a very sharp edge.
I also use a honing guide, for years I used an Eclipse one but have now moved over to the Lee Valley No2. Using a guide gives repeatable results which helps when starting on the sharpening learning curve.


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## Chems (28 May 2008)

Yes it is, I think I probably need to look into something to sharpen with then as well


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## bugbear (29 May 2008)

Chems":sy56q0i0 said:


> I have a sharpening stone, and have been trying to sharpen my chisels up but I'm not very good at it, but reading this I guess its a similar process.



Without sharpening equipment, and the knowledge/skill to use it, any plane (up to and include a Holtey) is a paperweight, BTW.

My two suggestions would be:

1) Record #5 1/2, old style (look for square corners on the blade), with a replacement blade.

2) Veritas low angle jack.

As an initial one-stop-shop on matters planish, I have a webpage:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/plane.html

BugBear


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## Chems (30 May 2008)

Thanks for all the info again, I think a second hand plane is the way to go?

What do you think of a No5 1/2 Record Used but in good condition plane for general smoothing?


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## bugbear (30 May 2008)

Chems":3jnjzvch said:


> Thanks for all the info again, I think a second hand plane is the way to go?



As has been stated, that route involves less money, but more time and effort on your part. The essential Knowledge can (of course) be gained from books, the net, and this forum 



> What do you think of a No5 1/2 Record Used but in good condition plane for general smoothing?



Not normally considered a "pure smoother", but an excellent plane. It's rare enough to carry a slightly elevated price in the s/h market.

All planes can altered in purpose (to some extent) via tuning and setup

BugBear


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## bugbear (30 May 2008)

Chems":3boko6yr said:


> Im not really good enough to be looking at spending anymore than that for my first plane.



Heh. Given that good tools can compensate (to some extent) for limited knowledge or skill, it's the beginners who need good tools. It's the master craftsmen who could make good work with poor tools, although this is rarely put to the test ;-)

BugBear


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## lurker (30 May 2008)

BB is right!

All these people who keep telling you to buy a "fettle free" LN or whatever forget they already know how to tune a plane. The damn thing no matter how good out of box, only remains fettle free for at the most 2 hours work.

You have to learn how to set up a plane so do you want to make your mistakes on 300 quids worth of new steel or a £10 car booter? 

Having said that, no matter how much you read, practice etc you really need to see & use a well set up tool. Do what I did and worm your way into a visit to one of the experts here.


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## MrJay (30 May 2008)

A Veritas low angle jack will need honing and that's your lot - you don't need to learn how to flatten the iron, lap the sole, file the mouth, tweak the frog, fettle the chip breaker, replace the blade, extend the y-lever - yadda yadda. The plane is designed to be easy to adjust on the fly without the fuss or sloppiness of the Stanleys and Records of this world. Sure, you'll need to learn how to use the thing, but it's a hell of a lot easier than a standard bench plane and it'll do the jobs that I need several traditional bevel-down bench planes to do and do them very well.

It is precisely because I am aware of how much time and devotion that I invest in my planes that I am minded to recommend a low angle bevel up plane for those who don't want necessarily to become a black belt hand tool master plane nerd, but do want a serious hand plane that'll plane stuff and produce excellent results reliably. Yes it's expensive, yes expense is scary, however I believe that is the route that, all things considered, represents best value and by a margin. It is of course, not the only route.

On the 5 1/2...
All bench planes (Block planes and other specialty planes aren't included here), to some extent, smooth, flatten and make your stuff smaller than it used to be. Most bench planes, after fettling, are only really good at one of those tasks. Generally smaller planes (#1 - #4) are the easiest to make into smoothers, mid size planes (#5 & #6) are good for making your stuff smaller quickly but can be pushed into service for smoothing and or a bit of truing (especially if your power tools have already got you very close to flat and square) and longer planes (#7 & #8) - are best at getting your work flat, square and true.

It may or may not be obvious that smooth and flat are very different things. Smooth is a quality of the final surface, flat is a sound surface. I still thing you should be thinking in terms of flat as a priority and smooth as a nicety.

I think you'll like the extra width and stability of the 5 1/2, to my mind normal #5s feel quite narrow and tippy in use.


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## Chems (30 May 2008)

After your huge amount of fantastic input, I won the no holds barred bidding war for this Record No 5 1/2.

















Cost me the huge price of £26 with £9.99 shipping. 

I hope Ive chosen my first plane well and now just need to learn this art of "fettling"


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## Digit (30 May 2008)

Nothing wrong with the price, and anything else the forum members will be only too delighted to air their knowledge. 
Won't we fellahs? :lol: 

Roy.


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## Chems (30 May 2008)

I also got 4 1220mm sash clamps for £31 and considering they cost £9 from axminster I though that was a bargin as well!

Im obviously going to have to do some serious reading to get upto speed and Im going to be buying about £100 worth of Chesnut tomorrow.

The only thing left to decide is weather or not to spend the £399 on the Axminster P/T or buy a smaller one such as the 6 inch SIP bench top planer thicknesser model. Do I really need the big one?


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## jerryc (31 May 2008)

chem,
One of the most important keys to using hand tools, especially planes is the matter of sharpening. Suggest you read Brent Beach on sharpening. 
Sorry I don't have the expertise to give you the address, but just Google "Brent Beach" and his site will come up. I've bookmarked it and refer to it regularly. Derek Cohen has modified Brent's ideas and come up with the ten cent sharpening system. Both show you don't have to spend a fortune on sharpening accessories. like jigs and stones.
How important sharp tools are was illustrated to me when one day I picked up my Veritas jack plane with 50degree blade and found it very hard work to push the thing through the wood. Picked up my HNT Gordon where the angle was 60degrees and it just flew through the wood. 10degrees extra angle should have made it more difficult to push. Another thing to bear in mind is to lubricate the sole of the plane often when planing. It makes a huge difference. You can use linseed oil though I mainly use a small block of beeswax and scribble it on the sole during a planing session.

Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left.[/img]


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## Chems (31 May 2008)

Ive added that to my bookmarks as well, thanks!

It should arrive this week, first thing to do will be to see how well it works straight off the bat. Secondly Im going to strip it all down and give it a good clean get it looking like new, flatten the sole then move onto blade sharpening.


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## lurker (2 Jun 2008)

Chems,

If you modify your profile to give an indication where you are, I bet somone will offer to give you hands on fettling help


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## Chems (3 Jun 2008)

Done.

Im hoping the plane, my bargin sash clamps and my brand new Axminster P/T will arrive tomorrow.....big spending has gone on.


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## bugbear (3 Jun 2008)

Chems":1rzezcj6 said:


> After your huge amount of fantastic input, I won the no holds barred bidding war for this Record No 5 1/2.
> 
> Cost me the huge price of £26 with £9.99 shipping.
> 
> I hope Ive chosen my first plane well and now just need to learn this art of "fettling"



Slightly high, but it looks like a good tool.

If you can take it apart and photograph the parts, we'll be happy to guide you through tune up.

BugBear


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## Chems (3 Jun 2008)

Obviously different members would expect different prices, someone else said that was reasonable!

I will take it apart and get lots of photos.


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## skipdiver (3 Jun 2008)

Would be interesting to see.I have just "acquired" some old planes including a moulding plane.One of them is the same as yours.I would like to get some better irons for them and get them "singing" as my old woodwork teacher called it when they were cutting right.


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## bugbear (3 Jun 2008)

Chems":1f8ygmlq said:


> Obviously different members would expect different prices,.



Agreed. A total price of 35 quid for a good 5 1/2 is well below any online dealer price (that I know of)

But at a car boot (you may have to attend several, of course) I would expect a plane like that to be around 15-20 GPB, and no postage.

Of course, at a car boot, there may be no tools, _*and*_ you need to know what you're looking at; caveat emptor!

With all things second hand, there's a playoff between time and money.

If you can keep looking, you'll eventually get a bargain

But if your need/want is urgent, a higher price will get something immediately.

There's no right/wrong in these matters; it's all a question of degree.

BugBear


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## lurker (3 Jun 2008)

Spot on again BB.

I'm building up my plane " choice (its not a C**lct*ion!!), but am in no rush.
I regularly go to a boot sale about 2 miles from home.
9 times out of 10 its a waste of 30 mins & 50p (entrance)and I walk away empty handed  
Then the other week, I got 2 X 4s & a 5 for 20 quid off one stall. And a 102 for 75p off another :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Brings out the "hunter" in me - sad I know :roll: :roll:


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## bugbear (3 Jun 2008)

lurker":12ym3kla said:


> And a 102 for 75p off another :lol: :lol: :lol:



You "unmentionable" person, you!

BugBear


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## Digit (3 Jun 2008)

> "unmentionable"


 
Did you need some help with appropriate words Bug? :lol: 

Roy


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## Chems (3 Jun 2008)

Didnt arrive today, but thats ok because my shiny new Dust Extractor and P/T came from Axminster so spent 3 hours assembling them, still not finished. I worried thou as I bought the non cast iron one because a) to expensive b) to big and heavy and I just worry that I wont be able to get good performance out of it. But to be honest it seems to be VERY solid in build quality. I will find out for sure tomorrow. 


The thing with Car Boots is the time it takes to find, and traveling to them, with the price of fuel at the moment its cheaper to internet buy again.


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## bugbear (4 Jun 2008)

Chems":1sqlmzp3 said:


> The thing with Car Boots is the time it takes to find, and traveling to them, with the price of fuel at the moment its cheaper to internet buy again.



Car boots aren't a tool source - they're a hobby, a hunt and a passtime!

BugBear


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## Chems (4 Jun 2008)

lol I havent got enough space to have other peoples things too! 

The plane arrived this morning. Were to start? The blade is very dull but looks to have been kept sharp at some point. It has a chip breaker and adjustable frog. The sole of it is pretty beat up, still flat but needs regrounding. The whole thing is very dirty and begining to rust but it smells of lubricant so I think it was well looked after in a previous life. I'll get some pics up this evening as Im going to dismantle it and begin cleaning it up. If you guys guide me through what Im meant to be doing I will put it all together in the end into a beginners guide to second hand plane reincarnation as my contribution to UKW.


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## bugbear (4 Jun 2008)

Chems":2b6bx608 said:


> Wwere to start? The blade is very dull but looks to have been kept sharp at some point.



Sharpening the blade will be done around every half hour of the plane's working life; no biggy. Grinding and honing bevels is pretty light work.

Getting the back of the blade flat and polished is needed, but can be deferred. Making sure the cap iron fits closely must be checked immediately. Shavings here are death.



> It has a chip breaker and adjustable frog. The sole of it is pretty beat up, still flat but needs regrounding.



I doubt that, at least in the short term. I'd just clean the rust off the body (using 400 grit SiC on a flat, metal sanding block.



> The whole thing is very dirty and begining to rust but it smells of lubricant so I think it was well looked after in a previous life. I'll get some pics up this evening as Im going to dismantle it and begin cleaning it up. If you guys guide me through what Im meant to be doing I will put it all together in the end into a beginners guide to second hand plane reincarnation as my contribution to UKW.



To start with, dismantle (keep notes if you need to), remove obvious crud and corrosion, check the cap iron, grind/hone the blade bevel, assemble, and GIVE IT A GO!

BugBear


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## Chems (4 Jun 2008)




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## NeilO (4 Jun 2008)

Chems, 
Did mine with a couple of wipes of Danish oil , then blonde shellac, probably not as hardwearing as poly varnish... but somehow feels more tactile when using them...(having had one finished in Yaught varnish, talk about sweaty palms :lol: :lol: )

Chems wrote


> The whole thing is very dirty and begining to rust but it smells of lubricant


Doesnt mean its been looked after Chems, just means the Ebayer had sense to get all the moving parts freeish before selling on...but you could have been lucky :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (4 Jun 2008)

Chems":2z4tu616 said:


> One handle all sanded down. From the bottom under the grim I think the handle used to be red so I will paint that back up if you guys can recommend what paint I should use?



I would just oil or oil and wax the handle - it will feel much nicer than paint or varnish. If you want it a different colour, just stain it first.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Digit (4 Jun 2008)

Anybody on here know when that type of frog ceased being made?

Roy


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## Paul Chapman (4 Jun 2008)

Digit":2tux1xpc said:


> Anybody on here know when that type of frog ceased being made?



Probably the late 1960s. The one on the left in the picture below was bought new in 1970, so they'd stopped making it by then







Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Pekka Huhta (4 Jun 2008)

About the shellac/wax, basically all of the Stanley/Record handles made from beech had shellac as a finish. You can tell it easily: the old 60's handles have a cracked, "spiderweb"-appearance as thick shellac does and it dissolves to alcohol. I have restored dozens of them just scrubbing the rest of the shellac away with steel wool dipped in alcohol and applying dark shellac. 

Using steel wool and alcohol to get the old shellac away will keep the old stain, so you don't have to re-stain the handles. 

Heavily shellacked (?) handles are not that comfy, for users I use just a few coats of linseed oil for starters, a couple of thin coats of shellac to close the wood (so that sweat and grime doesn't soak in to the wood) and finish it with a home-made paste wax. 

Just waxing or oiling a beech handle isn't a very good idea for heavy users, the wood gets pretty dirty and ugly looking within a few years. 

For the original look, just dip the handle in shellac, wipe the drips off and let it dry for a couple of hours. Then smooth the surface with steel wool and apply a few extra coats with a rag. 

Pekka


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## bugbear (4 Jun 2008)

Chems":2s2f2njj said:


> One handle all sanded down. From the bottom under the grim I think the handle used to be red so I will paint that back up if you guys can recommend what paint I should use?



The handles (when not rosewood, which is rather rare on Record) are normally stained beech.

Just get some Rustin stain (I've used indian rosewood, mahogony and jacobian oak in the past), bosh it on, allow to dry, and then put on 4-8 wipes of Danish Oil (which takes ages, since it's around 12 hour drying between wipes).

But only after you've sanded it as well as you want, which is a fiddly task.

The plane looks pretty good overall; there's rust on the blade, but only at the cosmetic end; that blade has WAY too much camber for smoothing, but we'll address that later.

BTW, how did you do the small-click-for-large pictures?

BugBear


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## Chems (4 Jun 2008)

Wow lots of different options on the handle. I'd quite like to get it back to red, so if I stain it red first then do what you suggest it should look original. Other bits im going to paint, I'll re-paint the record sign on the clamp and spray the inside of the plane back to black again. Once finished I hope it will look like new!

I use photobucket and you can make it automatically create thumbnails. In photobucket just check box the pictures you want, click generate html and tags, it opens a new window and its the one called Clickable thumbnails for message boards. 

Im going to continue on now with the plane Ive finished assembling my new P/T, think I will head up to Good Timber and get some supplies :twisted:


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## Paul Chapman (4 Jun 2008)

If you want it to look like it was when it was new, Record planes were blue, not black. JapLac (made by International Paints and available from B&Q) do one that is almost an exact match. And the handles weren't red - they were a dark brown stain.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Chems (4 Jun 2008)

Like this?


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## Paul Chapman (4 Jun 2008)

Not such a bright blue - the original Record colour was much darker (and nicer  ). JapLac Navy Blue is the right colour. The handles were similar to those in your picture.

The two Records in this picture are the sort of blue you want to aim for 






Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (4 Jun 2008)

Chems":1elqypa7 said:


> Like this?



Gack. No.

As with all old things, look for the original colour in a low-traffic spot.

In your case, the area of the casting UNDER the frog (revealed under disassembly) should be pretty much original texture and colour.

And your handle was never red, unless it was in a school or something.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (4 Jun 2008)

Plane looks good...of course you can always remake the handles from some English Walnut :wink: :lol: :lol: The blue colour is too bright, the original Record enamel was much more subdued - Rob


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## Chems (4 Jun 2008)

I thought it was a bit garish. I will try and source some paint tomorrow. I also uncovered the Electric Orange colour on the record badge, thats really nice, if it hadnt flaked off in a few parts a clean up would have done.

What I really want to know is, what do I need to be able to polish these up so they look like mirrors? Ive got 800 Grit, 1000, 1500, 2000 and 2500 grit paper but not sure it will work on the metal and I think I need some sort of abrasive solution.


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## Paul Chapman (4 Jun 2008)

woodbloke":10vqgo07 said:


> ...of course you can always remake the handles from some English Walnut :wink: :lol: :lol:



Wot, like this :wink:


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## Chems (4 Jun 2008)

How to get that shine on the metal is what I want to know!


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## bugbear (4 Jun 2008)

Chems":1z1qwe8e said:


> I thought it was a bit garish. I will try and source some paint tomorrow. I also uncovered the Electric Orange colour on the record badge, thats really nice, if it hadnt flaked off in a few parts a clean up would have done.
> 
> What I really want to know is, what do I need to be able to polish these up so they look like mirrors? Ive got 800 Grit, 1000, 1500, 2000 and 2500 grit paper but not sure it will work on the metal and I think I need some sort of abrasive solution.



I'd get it working before going nuts on the cosmetics.

You need to remove a good deal of metal to get down to a mirror finish, since you'd need to get below the deepest localised damage

Unless you can do this accurately, you'll actually degrade the tool.

BugBear


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## Chems (4 Jun 2008)

I know but once Ive got it together I wont be willing to take it apart again.


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## woodbloke (4 Jun 2008)

Chems":3ebzgkqr said:


> How to get that shine on the metal is what I want to know!



At the risk of being cyber-slagged I'll offer up a coupla pics of my No 4 with apologies to those who're about to say 'oh, heavens above, not again :roll: ...'












The 'shine on the metal' requires *a lot * of elbow grease and involves just working down thru' the grades of w/d paper, I finished this one off at 1000g. Then follows a bit of work on the leather wheel of the Tormek and finally some Autosol to finish...BTW that's* all* the shiny metal bits :lol: - Rob


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## Karl (4 Jun 2008)

Always nice to see that little beauty. Did you sell it in the end, or was that the T5?

Cheers

Karl


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## woodbloke (4 Jun 2008)

Karl - still got this one, Martin the Woodkateer had the T5 for a _'reasonably exorbitant sum' _:lol: - Rob


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## Chems (4 Jun 2008)

Looks fantastic, I will keep plugging away with mine!


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## Chems (5 Jun 2008)

woodbloke":2254jn1l said:


>



Im not sure mine will ever look like that, I worked on the blade for quite a while, but not sure how much progress Im making. I think I might be going wrong as Im not using a solid sanding block mainly just using my hands. Did you use any sort of lubricant be it T-Cut or whatever?


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## Digit (5 Jun 2008)

Sweat!

Roy.


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## Karl (5 Jun 2008)

Chems - what grit paper are you using? It needs to be very coarse to start with, or you'll never get past the crud.

Cheers

Karl


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## woodbloke (5 Jun 2008)

I think I started off on the sole with about 100g al oxide and fixed it to a bit of float glass and progressively worked down thru' the grades of paper ... eventually used w/d papers for the finer grades, water as a lube.
The very* best* tip I can give has nothing to do with fettling the plane, it's to do with your hands. They'll get absolutely filthy black with ingrained crud and the best way to prevent this is to go to somewhere like Halfords and buy a pot of barrier cream which is applied before you start work. When you wash hands afterwards you'll find that all the yuk comes off quite easily which saves a lot of time with the scrubbing brush - Rob


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## tnimble (5 Jun 2008)

For getting the pieces nice and eventually shiny not only start with a course enough abrasive but also a good quality one that does not clog up and wears out fast. I find 3M 255P gold and 3M 255P production work best.

Usually I start up with 30 to 60 gritt depending on how flat, pitted or scratched the surface is. For the plane sole and sdes, the frog's blade and seat side and the cap iron.

I start with 80 to 120 gritt on the blade, the frog positioner fork, the frog adjuster screw and the washers.

I use a float the flatten end level the frog seat on the planes body and to correct the mouth.

When sanding I stick the sandpaper down with adhesive (spray or very wide ultra thin double sided tape) onto thick float glass or granite for the planes sole and sides, frog and cap iron. For the other parts I glue it onto a piece of thick MDF.

After sanding (I don't go past 600 grit) I use various grades of polishing compound on MDF and buffing wheels.

The blade depth adjusted wheel and screws are cleaned and polished on the lathe. I use a drill chuck I salvaged from a broken cordless drill. Which is perfect for grabbing small objects without marring. The shaft of the drill chuck is mounted on the lathe using a lathe chuck with small jaws.

The handles are best oiled and shellaced. Handles made from non exotics have to be stained first to a reddish brown colour.

I replate the lever cap and screws if necessary with nickel. And re-enamel the plane body, frog and logos (after cource sanding and before making the plane nice).

A plane in the condition like yours would take me about 2 to 3 full days to get like the one in the pic posted by wookblode.


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## bugbear (5 Jun 2008)

Chems":48uc4700 said:


> I know but once Ive got it together I wont be willing to take it apart again.



You should; it easy and quick. It's only held together with a few machine screws.

The only even vaguely critical adjustment is the frog, and you'll probably alter that several times as you gain experience to guide your choice. That's what the adjuster is for.

BTW, when cleaning rust (certainly the amount you've got) I wouldn't use anything coarser than 320-400 grit SiC.

The extra speed of rust removal gained by coarser grits is more than compensated by the tedium of removing the scratches they leave.

And (if your photos are accurate) 320-400 grit will have that corrosion off in a couple of minutes.

Here's my most frequently used plane:






Despite the cosmetics of the body, the handles have been fully stripped, sanded to 800 grit, stained and oiled, the blade and cap-iron fully flattened, polished and fitted, and the sole flattened by reference to a surface plate. It works quite well, actually 

Addition: I've also cleaned the thread on the adjuster bolt (removed by holding the thread in a soft jawed vice and rotating the frog), and reworked the surface of the cam on the lever cap to give smooth operation.

You did say your purpose was to remove tearout, not make a showpiece...

BugBear


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## Chems (5 Jun 2008)

That looks very similar to mine.

I will continue sanding polishing etc till I get gleaming surfaces, then I will have a look at the knobs and repainting the handles. Then it will be actually sharpening the blade up.


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## bugbear (6 Jun 2008)

Chems":u59dsyuf said:


> That looks very similar to mine.
> 
> I will continue sanding polishing etc till I get gleaming surfaces, then I will have a look at the knobs and repainting the handles.



OK. Check back in when you've done the cosmetics the way you want, and want to make it work well.

BugBear


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## Chems (6 Jun 2008)

I will indeed, I dont think I will get it super clean, if I can get it looking like yours I will be pleased.


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## Jake (6 Jun 2008)

That'd be more than enough work - it's a tool: an object of work, not jewellery.


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## Lord Nibbo (6 Jun 2008)

Jake":co2lvnl7 said:


> it's a tool: an object of work, not jewellery.



Oh I don't know





Here's one I did last year


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## Jake (6 Jun 2008)

Nice jewellery, I guess. The shiny bling stuff doesn't do much for me, I'm afraid. What's wrong with a bit of hard-earned time worn patina?


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## Chems (6 Jun 2008)

I bought a cheap grinder today, it has tool rests, can I sharpen my blade using a grinder?


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## MrJay (6 Jun 2008)

You'll need to flatten the back first. Gotta be done. Sorry 'bout that.

The trick to the bevel is to grind it at roughly 25 degrees and then add a tiny micro-bevel at 30 degrees which forms the actual cutting edge with the back. To keep the blade honed you just touch up the micro-bevel, then clean the burr from the back; because the micro-bevel is a tiny wafer of a thing it is quick and easy to do. The 25 degree big bevel you could attempt with the wheel. Be wary of overheating the blade though; screw up the temper and the blade is fit for the bin. If you're looking for smoothing performance I'd be minded to make some kind of jig so you get a nice even, consistent bevel. Stock tool rests are notoriously not very tool resty.

(you don't want to do the micro bevel with the wheel oh no, that will go terribly wrong; - I didn't make that overly clear - Digit will in a minute though; oh wait!)


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## Digit (6 Jun 2008)

No! There are some videos on the net that should help you on this. A grinder is used to cut the primary bevel, this is simply to give clearance between the iron and the timber being planed.
A secondary bevel is used as the cutting edge, this should be as finely honed as possible.

Roy.


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## Chems (7 Jun 2008)

Ok, I mainly bought it to sharpen my chisels.

How do I go about flattening the back. Bit of sandpaper on a hard flat surface?


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## MrJay (7 Jun 2008)

Head back to page one of this thread. You could use abrasive paper on a flat surface, but I suspect you'll end up using a hell of a lot of paper. You can suspend loose abrasive particles on a lapping plate also; I've not tried this method, but it's supposed to be good. Be weary of using very coarse grits on the iron - any scratches you make you're going to have to remove later.


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## bugbear (9 Jun 2008)

Chems":sqn5g5qy said:


> I bought a cheap grinder today, it has tool rests, can I sharpen my blade using a grinder?



No; a grinder is for "bulk" changes in shape. Very helpful.

Sharpening is done on much finer (and slower) abrasives.

BugBear


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## Chems (13 Jun 2008)

Ok I havent polished it all up but want to get it working now. 

Does the blade gone in bevel down or up? The blade also has a chip in it  Really want to sharpen it up and get doing some planing with it. Should the blade be curved in this plane?


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## bugbear (13 Jun 2008)

Chems":e6tb7y50 said:


> Ok I havent polished it all up but want to get it working now.



Ah. Excellent change in priorities.



> Does the blade gone in bevel down or up?


down


> The blade also has a chip in it



Not a problem. Compared to the work of flattening and polishing the back of the blade, and tuning/fitting the cap-iron, removing a nick from the bevel is child's play.

Here's a link to "big boy's" tuning up.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.wood ... 18bf?hl=en

Here's a much more "moderate" approach to getting the damn thing working:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&s ... diaone.net

BugBear


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## Chems (13 Jun 2008)

Thank you BugBear, I put it together today and it looked fine with the bit of cleaning I have given it no need to turn it into a mirror I dont think!

The chip is in the ChipBreaker no pun intended. 

Right so I will get sharpening up and report back!


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## Chems (22 Jun 2008)

Be proud I took my first ever shavings with a plane today. First off with the Record shoulder plane a member off here let me buy of them and kindly sharpened up, then some with this plane. 

BB are you sure its bevel down? I tried it both ways and it didnt take any shavings bevel down but it did bevel up, I think it may be because its not very sharp yet?


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## Chems (22 Jun 2008)

I think I will have to buy a new blade as this one it too far gone its been sharpened so much it now appears to be too short to have any useful depth adjustment with the thumb screw. 

How do I go about buying a new one, will one of the Stanley ones from Axminster do the job?


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## Digit (22 Jun 2008)

You could try the Old Plane Iron Shop or M & P Tools. Both on the net and E-Bay.

Roy.


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## bugbear (23 Jun 2008)

Chems":3rkrafcy said:


> I think I will have to buy a new blade as this one it too far gone its been sharpened so much it now appears to be too short to have any useful depth adjustment with the thumb screw.



Some misunderstanding here, surely:

Your blade looks fine - plenty of length, and doesn't appear too pitted at the business end.







BugBear


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## Chems (23 Jun 2008)

Its gotten maybe another 7-8mm shorter since Ive been sharpening it. The problem is that if I set it so it has just a touch coming out from the mouth, I cant do any adjustment with the thumb wheel as the saddle falls off with anymore turning. The other thing is, cant see it in that picture so well, but the blade is to curved, Its gotten more so as Ive been sharpening. 

This blade is available to anyone who wants an original record iron and thinks they can make use, I know a lot of people are avid collectors of such things?

BB can I use a waterstone for sharpening do your recommend that? Ive got one but its only about 1.5inches wide so it makes it a little more difficult, Im off ill today so light duty, Im going to make a little honing jig out of some bits of scrap.


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## bugbear (23 Jun 2008)

Chems":23c82ht2 said:


> Its gotten maybe another 7-8mm shorter since Ive been sharpening it.



Yes Gods! Is that your angle grinder again?



> The problem is that if I set it so it has just a touch coming out from the mouth, I cant do any adjustment with the thumb wheel as the saddle falls off with anymore turning.



That's just wrong. What do you mean by "saddle"?

I suspect your "yoke" isn't sitting correctly in your adjuster wheel; either that or your cap-iron is fixed to your blade very oddly.

If the fault is misassembly, a new blade ain't gonna fix it.

If you can't sharpen "straight" you'll just muss up an expensive new blade. You may as well get you mistakes fixed on the cheap stuff.

BugBear


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## Chems (23 Jun 2008)

bugbear":1p7okys7 said:


> Chems":1p7okys7 said:
> 
> 
> > Its gotten maybe another 7-8mm shorter since Ive been sharpening it.
> ...



*shameful nod*

Its very difficult to get it all right when you have so many variables, I cant tell if its that I havent got the blade sharp enough, or Ive set it up wrong, or if the bit of wood Im using to test isnt very good. I feel if I can at least start with a sharp iron I can figure it out. 

Hopefully as I get better I can go back to the other blade and get it working. Nothing wrong with having 2 irons, the new one only cost £11.


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## bugbear (23 Jun 2008)

OK; checklist:

The depth adjuster should be run onto the yoke, so that the little "paddles" or blobs on the yoke sit in the deep groove of the adjuster, so they're nicely captured. A little Lubrication on the adjuster thread, and the yoke/adjuster contact is a good thing.

Frog should be seated so the bottom end forms a more-or-less continuous ramp with the matching (little) ramp in the casting.

The capiron screws onto the blade; the blade needs to sit on the bench bevel DOWN and the cap goes on with it's "bump" UP.

The assembled "double iron" (blade + capiron) goes in the body bevel DOWN, taking care to put the slot in the capiron over the "sticky up" bit of the yoke.

If your depth adjustment is miles out, you can roughly adjust it at this stage.

Now put the lever cap on, and adjust the lever cap screw until you can "snap" the lever without using undue force.

The plane is pretty much ready to use at this point.

BugBear


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## Chems (23 Jun 2008)

Ok I will have a go at that.

Ive just spent like an hour trying to sharpen my chisels on the waterstone they are provided with, Im getting no were, they wouldnt cut butter. What am I doing wrong?


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## bugbear (23 Jun 2008)

separate questions in separate thread please

BugBear


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## Chems (23 Jun 2008)

Nono, its related, I couldnt get my plane iron very sharp yesterday with the waterstone either.


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## dunbarhamlin (23 Jun 2008)

This weekend I watched someone furiously flap around on a stone, degrading rather than enhancing the edge of a blade.
While folks better than I may get good results whilst appearing to 'flap around' over the stone, mere mortals are better with slow deliberate strokes, gently cradling the blade with arms locked, and moving the whole body from the ankles. This I think is true even when using a guide.
After half a dozen strokes, the resultant flat on the bevel should be quite clear, and can be used as a guide to how much work is required. Once this flat reaches the edge, a bur will be apparent on the 'back' of the blade. If drawing the 'back' *flat* across your finest stone doesn't remove this bur (or bend it so it is now apparent on the bevel side) then the 'back' is not flat enough - for a plane blade, consider using the Ruler Trick (*not* for chisels)
Once you are raising and removing a bur in this manner, repeat on your finer stone until it has gone (called 'chasing' the bur)
But gently does it - if a heavy bur is broken off prematurely, it will have the same effect on the edge as a chip - a blunted section on the edge (perhaps what's happening to you.)
Cheers
Steve


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## bugbear (23 Jun 2008)

Chems":26e9j6ay said:


> Nono, its related, I couldnt get my plane iron very sharp yesterday with the waterstone either.



Yes; many things are "related" but they still deserve separate threads:

Someone else may benefit from sharpening tips, but won't know they're being given in a thread whose subject is "What smoothing plane"

BugBear


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## Chems (29 Jun 2008)

To round off this 7 page epic, I bough a new blade and its working great. It still needed sharpening and the corners rounding off which I havent done yet.

The plane isnt super shiny but Ive decide thats just not important for me. Im learning how to tune it up pretty well, its a complex bit of kit really. It doesnt always slide as well as I'd like but Ive been using it on Chestnut an I think thats quite a hard wood and its doing a good job overall of smoothing it down.

I will get some pics up in the morning of it working. My next plane will be a more all purpose jack plane as Im finding that between my smoothing plane and my shoulder plane they are both getting a lot of work.


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## NeilO (30 Jun 2008)

Chems,
my offer to put a crisp edge on your tools is still open, just fetch `em on over and you can sharpen away to your hearts content..


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## Chems (1 Jul 2008)

Thanks Neil, I think I will have to take you up on that offer at some point. Its finding the time. Im halfway through doing some tongue and groove boards and so far this week have only managed the groove bit.


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## Chems (4 Jul 2008)




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## Chems (18 Feb 2010)

Mick the Tree came over last week and pointed out that the chip breaker isn't the one that should be with the plane as its not as wide as the blade, which is why it gets blocked up so often. Now how come you experts didn't spot that to help out a noobie like me!


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