# Nurses



## Digit (18 Jun 2008)

I offer this without comment,

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 09,00.html

Roy.


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## Smudger (18 Jun 2008)

Well, I'll comment.

This government has had a real problem, at the core of its philosophy, which is that they believe that progress can only be made if it is measured. So they set tests and targets - and I think you know what that has meant to kids and to schools.

The wheels come off that idea when it comes to measuring intangibles - how empathic is a nurse, how intuitive is a doctor, how articulate is a teacher. But instead of either stopping measuring, if I may be permitted a coarseness, every crevice and corrugation of a cat's buttocks, or looking for something which might show what they want obliquely, they just devise more and more impossible measures.

Did you know that the Secretary of State for Education, Ed 'Balls' Balls, has proposed that schools keep details of what happens to pupils _after they leave school_, and that this information is included in the schools' league tables? Quite apart from the question 'how?' - who will now be expected to take the responsibilty for unemployment and antisocial behaviour? 

And will nurses find their promotion blocked if they don't have an insincere smile plastered across their faces at all times?

These are people (Balls and the like) who have never had a 'proper' job, and who are completely isolated from society. 

Blah.


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## Digit (18 Jun 2008)

Agreed! My last sojourn in hospital showed that the poor bloody nursing staff didn't have _time_ for empathy.

Roy.


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## Smudger (18 Jun 2008)

I'm dropping this, as according to Karl I am always being unpleasant...


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## Rich (18 Jun 2008)

Blimey Smudger, if I took notice of what people thought of me, I'd never post, get over it man.

regards,
Rich.


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## Smudger (18 Jun 2008)

No, I'm serious. 

I don't mind being criticised for what I do, but not like that.


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## Anonymous (18 Jun 2008)

Smudger":1u4mreh5 said:


> I'm dropping this, as according to Karl I am always being unpleasant...


I've yet to see you being so. Don't always agree with you but, never found you to be 'unpleasant'.


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## Smudger (18 Jun 2008)

That's what I thought. That's normal, isn't it?


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## Jake (18 Jun 2008)

It was an unnecessary (and uncharacteristic) comment, with no justification that I have ever seen. I wouldn't worry about it - PMT or something - or maybe he got you mixed up with someone else?


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## Smudger (18 Jun 2008)

Cheers. It may sound daft, but that upset me.

What with me being in such pain and all (not that I'm after sympathy).

But I met some lovely nurses yesterday, including one rather campy gay male nurse who, when he realised I was uncomfortable, gave me a nice back rub!


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## BradNaylor (19 Jun 2008)

Dick, 

I've never found your posts unpleasant - a bit opinionated maybe, occasionally even bordering on pompous... :wink: :lol: 

The problem with communication via forum posts is that so many of the aspects of face-to-face conversation, or even telephone calls, are missing. 

Tone of voice, facial expressions, body language etc etc all contribute to the communication process when we talk directly with people. These subtleties are completely lost when we are sat at our respective keyboards making quick off the cuff posts. Hidden meanings can be read into statements where none was intended; jokes can misfire badly because of a misinterpretation.

I know this only too well. When I first joined this forum a couple of years ago I had no prior experience of forums at all. I failed to grasp the etiquette required and posted as if I was stood at the public bar with a bunch of mates.

I consequently upset a few people - and moderators(!) - and got banned.

A lesson was learned, I managed to worm my way back in, and appear now to be accepted.

Don't dwell on Karl's slightly unfortunate throwaway comment.

He's a lovely bloke!

Cheers
Dan

PS I find the image of you being given a massage by a gay male nurse rather disturbing - I can't face my breakfast!


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## woody67 (19 Jun 2008)

Smudger":3bjpogw2 said:


> including one rather campy gay male nurse who, when he realised I was uncomfortable, gave me a nice back rub!



Now now Dick - stop digging a hole with your stereotypical spade !!! :wink: :wink: I'm a male heterosexual nurse happily married with 2 teenaged boys!!  

Mark


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## Smudger (19 Jun 2008)

woody67":2jdctwlb said:


> Smudger":2jdctwlb said:
> 
> 
> > including one rather campy gay male nurse who, when he realised I was uncomfortable, gave me a nice back rub!
> ...



Yes, OK, point taken, but as a family we have real reason to be grateful to a gay male nurse! My eldest son almost died on millennium eve (gangrenous appendix, misdiagnosed) and as he was beginning to recover it was the generosity of said nurse, who shared his lunch with him, and who sat and chatted through his break, who turned him round after a very bad time. Which I have found is typical of nurses in general, and male nurses in particular. But it does seem to be a profession, like teaching, that attracts gay men. Digging now stopped!


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## Smudger (19 Jun 2008)

Dan Tovey":209q5mj5 said:


> Dick,
> 
> I've never found your posts unpleasant - a bit opinionated maybe, occasionally even bordering on pompous... :wink: :lol:



Pompous? Moi?

(Sorry, that was pretentious as well...)


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## woody67 (19 Jun 2008)

Dick - a nurse and a teacher discussing the sexuality of our colleagues in teaching and healthcare at 08.30 hrs !!!! Shouldn't we be at work?? :shock: :wink: :wink: 

PS - Agree on the certain professions attracting certain people, I've no doubt many carpenters are still in the cabinet.....er, closet! :wink: 

Mark


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## Smudger (19 Jun 2008)

I'm off sick, hence meeting the nurses!
Done something 'orrible to my Achilles' tendon, so not even 'standing in workshop' fit...

Not that there's any room in there.


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## Jake (19 Jun 2008)

Ouch - my sympathies - one of mine snapped completely a couple of years ago - agony.


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## woody67 (19 Jun 2008)

Blimey, sorry fella - bit of an opportune moment to offer my sympathy _and_ empathy :shock: I ruptured my achilles a year ago playing footie, off work for 3 months and a plaster cast for 2 months. 

I take it you're in pain ? 

You might find this hard to believe, but mine was a full rupture to the extent that my mates heard the "bang" and I went down like a sack of you know what. However, I had no idea what happened and attempted to stand to try and "walk it off" until I was rugby tackled by a physio and an athletics coach! 

The point I'm making is I felt no pain *whatsover* - even when on the mend! My physio said a partial rupture is far more painful than a full one. I'm 100% fit now thanks, according to my physio, of not being scared of it happening again and getting on with life as normal as possible. The day after I got my cast off, I was squatting under a sink, boxing some pipes in!

Hope you get well soon and don't worry!!  

Mark


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## Smudger (19 Jun 2008)

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

I'm bored rigid! Hence all the postings on forums.

I'm not even seeing a podiatrist until the end of July and no sign of physio, so I've no idea when I'll be walking freely.

This is a bad inflammation of the bit (medical term) where the tendon joins to the heel. I may have to wear high heels...


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## Digit (19 Jun 2008)

I think you were lucky to find a nurse, male, female, Gay or otherwise, with the necessary time. 
My last time in a ward the poor sods were running around they were so busy simply dealing with patients essential needs. 
To me this whole idea is an insult to a very honourable profession. 

Roy.


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## Jake (19 Jun 2008)

woody67":2mwvhcub said:


> You might find this hard to believe, but mine was a full rupture to the extent that my mates heard the "bang" and I went down like a sack of you know what. However, I had no idea what happened and attempted to stand to try and "walk it off" until I was rugby tackled by a physio and an athletics coach!



Similar, but on a cricket pitch - mine was agony, though (much more painful than when I fractured the cuff of my wrist) - I heard the snap and felt a blinding pain - as I was tumbling,I looked behind me - for some reason the only explanation that came to mind was that a cricket ball from another match had smashed me on the ankle after being hit for six.

No-one knew what it was, I had to convince a couple of people to help me off the pitch. The pain died down to dull pain, and after the game I err, hobbled to the pub, drank the pain away,woke up in the morning and it hadn't gone away (for some reason!). 

The worst bit (apart from the instant it snapped) was after surgery - when the morphine wore off in the night.


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## woodbloke (19 Jun 2008)

Dick - hope you're better soon with the tendon...not sure about the heels though :lol: Comments about typing stuff on the forum that Dan the T made are very true, it's easy for information to be misconstrued and taken the wrong way...smilies only go so far in conveying how the poster feels at that moment. I know that I try (don't always happen) to be fairly explicit in comments so that ambiguities don't happen - Rob


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## lurker (19 Jun 2008)

Sorry to hear you are incapacitated Smudge.

Still, it should be better in time for the looooooooong holidays!!

( ducks & runs for cover!) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Smudger (19 Jun 2008)

This will be a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong one, as I retire in July!

Thanks for the good wishes, all. It's a bit better today. But then I've been sat at this computer...


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## lurker (19 Jun 2008)

Well in that case, I hope it heals quick, so you can enjoy your retirement.

Sorry I was nasty: I left school nearly 40 years ago and I still hate teachers!! :roll: :roll:


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## Anonymous (19 Jun 2008)

lurker":5800ocme said:


> I left school nearly 40 years ago and I still hate teachers!! :roll: :roll:



I still remember most of my teachers since primary school!!!!
Some of them, I now think, should never have been allowed near children; they were sadistic barstewards, sort of official thugs who seemed to enjoy humiliating and punishing kids. 
Some I only vaguely remember.
Some I will always remember as being the nicest peeps I'm ever likely to meet. Who had a real desire to help me get the best from myself, who didn't mind if I sometimes got it wrong.


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## Smudger (19 Jun 2008)

Amazingly enough I've just had a phone call from the hospital offering me a physio appointment next Tuesday - only a week after my first check!

I'm gobsmacked.


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## Digit (19 Jun 2008)

Teachers are human, (Smudger not with standing :lol: ) some good some otherwise. But I remember mine with great affection. 
Regrettably they are not afforded the status and respect with which they were of yore. 

Roy.


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## lurker (19 Jun 2008)

Come on Smudge do join in!!

MDF you are correct.

I had a juniour school teacher and he used to thrash me on an almost daily basis ( I deserved it) - I think he is still on my top ten most respected people I have ever met.

Middle school were mainly older chaps - many ex WW2 soldiers, again most were OK, some I remember very fondly.
The Upper school was full of younger ones and most were obnoxious tw*ts.
The sadists were always in PE weren't they!!


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## Digit (19 Jun 2008)

Many here will disagree, I accept that, but teachers lost out once corporal punishment was abandoned. 
Disciplining a wayward child still must involve punishment if it is to be effective. 
I doubt we were any better than today's youths, we stayed on course because we feared the consequences if we didn't. 
Anyone remember Smiff of 'get some in'? 
So very true. 

Roy.


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## lurker (19 Jun 2008)

I'd agree with that Digit.

The way I see it - corporal punishment was banned because a few misused it.
They misused it because the "decent" teachers did not apply peer pressure to stop them.

At about 16, I complained to the deputy head (a nice old chap) about a little PE sadist. He backed me, but the gutless headmaster ruled against it.

Years later I met the deputy and he told me he gave up on the teaching profession over that.


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## Digit (19 Jun 2008)

Yes, I also new a thrasher, but he was a one off.
The rest were dedicated men and women with a real vocation.

Roy.


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## Smudger (19 Jun 2008)

I used to have a cane, but I never used it.
The circumstances would have to be that some other teacher told me that the kid deserved it. I never trusted any of them enough for that - at least I never trusted any of the ones who wanted me to punish kids _for them_...

I was slippered and caned at school. If I deserved it, OK, but the times I didn't I still remember.

And then there was the irony of hitting a kid to stop them fighting.


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## BradNaylor (21 Jun 2008)

When I was about 14 a couple of my mates and I were serving a 'detention' after school for some misdemeanour or other. Aware that the last bus was due to leave in ten minutes and that missing it meant a 5 mile walk home, I suggested a deal to the teacher supervising us; 

3 strokes of the cane each and we all go home. 

He agreed enthusiastically. We all got a few whacks across the backside and made the bus. 

I kind of assumed that the teacher just wanted to get home, too. 

Years later however, it was all over our local paper that he had been sent to Strangeways for 3 years for fiddling around with schoolboys in his stock-room... 

I've had serious doubts about corporal punishment ever since! 

Dan


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## woodbloke (21 Jun 2008)

As an ex teacher of 20 years at the chalk face, I was called in to be a witness at a caning on a couple of occasions in the early 80's...not pleasant, made my eyes water :shock: never mind the youngster (never kids :wink: ) as the Deputy Head who wielded it didn't 'hold back' but for all that he was a great bloke and got on well with all the students. Strangely, girls were never caned as this was in the days before they wore trousers to school.
In my view, there were three sorts of teachers, the first were those who taught by pure charisma, they were the very best and always the ones you remember. The second were the vast majority who struggled on with reasonable success and tried to do a half-decent job (I think I fell into that category) and the last group were those who taught by sheer and utter terror and those you remember as well.
My old ex Deputy Head was one of the latter...he could walk onto the stage at an assembly, just raise his head and look at 600 faces... the result was utter silence.
Teaching BTW is the easiest and most enjoyable job in the world with a group of willing and pleasant youngsters where *everyone* is as keen as mustard...that happens about 0.001% of the time. The rest of the time it's very different :x - Rob


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

There are, as usual, a number of different side to this argument. I think people, whether pro or con corporal punishment, I'm pro, must accept that caning generally represents a failure. All else has failed. 
I attended for part of my time a school in Lambourne, in Berkshire. At that time it was one of the toughest teaching jobs in Britain. My class tutor was a from The Gorbels and claimed that the local stable lads made the area tougher than his home town. 
We had a girl raped, a lad had the top of his thumb removed on the woodshop grinder, we had a teacher attacked with a broken bottle and I, as a prefect, was stabbed with a woodworking chisel. 
The teachers kept control of this unruly bunch by sheer force of character, and the threat of the cane. 
In the same way that police, I feel, should have their authority backed by the ultimate sanction, so IMO, should teachers have corporal punishment open to them. 
To ask them to face a mob of possibly hostile and resentful youths on a daily basis without it is, again IMO, utterly wrong! 

Roy. 

Roy.


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## Jake (21 Jun 2008)

Digit":35js25mp said:


> must accept that caning generally represents a failure. All else has failed.
> 
> We had a girl raped, a lad had the top of his thumb removed on the woodshop grinder, we had a teacher attacked with a broken bottle and I, as a prefect, was stabbed with a woodworking chisel.



Gosh, the cane worked very well, then.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

That is a spectacular missing of the point Jake, it prevented only the most difficult of pupils from over stepping the mark. 
The local stable lads caused havoc around the area but were generally controlled at school. 
When I faced the lad who stabbed me it never occurred to me that I would not be supported by all levels of authority, and I was. 
Faced with the same situation today I would be less certain of that and might be somewhat reluctant to step forward again. 
IMO that is wrong. 

Roy.


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## Jake (21 Jun 2008)

It was missing _ your _ point maybe.

If the cane didn't prevent the stabbings etc, perhaps they should have introduced capital punishment? Or cut off hands or something else properly effective.


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## Anonymous (21 Jun 2008)

Jake":113xbgp4 said:


> It was missing _ your _ point maybe.
> 
> If the cane didn't prevent the stabbings etc, perhaps they should have introduced capital punishment? Or cut off hands or something else properly effective.



Or perhaps just lock the little sh%ts up, all in the same place, regardless of age (if they're old enough to behave like that then they're old enough to face the consequences) and let them remove each other from the gene pool.


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## Smudger (21 Jun 2008)

Amazing how fast a sensible discussion can take a dive, innit?

You aren't making yourself very clear - what exactly do you mean?


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

I never suggested that it did Jake. I was trying to make you understand the difference between the actions of the lads under control at school and their actions outside of it. And please don't put suggestion as about capital punishment that I didn't make. Try asking Smudger, who faces this sort of thing in his profession.
I did also stress that my comments were an opininon.
My class tutor's brother was a priest in the Gorbels and claimed that the violence in the village on a Saturday night was worse than he saw in his own parish.
Does the difference between that and the school suggest anything to you?

Roy.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

I don't know if your question was directed to me Smudge?

Roy.


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## Smudger (21 Jun 2008)

MDF_HAKA":1j891ihb said:


> Jake":1j891ihb said:
> 
> 
> > It was missing _ your _ point maybe.
> ...


Except that for many it's 'just a phase'. I have lost count of the number of little tearaways I've dealt with, excluded, expelled, ranted at and torn my hair out over, who at the age of 22 are responsible, hardworking pillars of the community. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but most kids who get in trouble at school sort themselves out when they have to/when they meet a good girl/when they realise the work:money relationship.

I had a 42-year old come back and see me a while ago. I excluded him a couple of times, and he was troublesome, but now he's a responsible dad, craftsman etc. He's moving away and he didn't want to go without coming and saying thanks - for keeping on his case and not giving up on him. That's the trick, if there is one.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

I have found that also to very true Smudge, I saw the same effect with National Service. 
The manner in which I was stabbed occurred when I went to the aid of a teacher who was being threatened by this particular ++++ . Instead handing me the chisel as I requested he lunged at me and I attempted to fend him off and received the classical defence wound to my left hand, which still bears the scar to this day. 
My response was to swear, then boot him where it would do him the most harm, as he folded I hit him in the face and he went down 
I threw the chisel then started to drag him out of the class where I was met by teachers coming to our aid. 
I never saw the lad again anywhere and I know not what happened to him 
The reason I have explained this Smudge is to ask a question. 
In the current climate would you suggest a 15 yr old son of yours to follow my course of action? 
I wouldn't. 
My son was being strangled some years ago and defended himself with a knife. 
The court was informed that the injury he inflicted was less than one centimetre long and had only broken the skin. 
Result. Guilty ABH. 

Roy.


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## Smudger (21 Jun 2008)

No, no longer possible, largely due to police officers who don't know how to use discretion, imo.

Personally I still get stuck in when needed, but I now know the risks. Never got stabbed but I once had my head banged on a desk a few times by a kid who was twice my size! I've also used a wrist splint to good advantage...

But there is a lot of rubbish written in the press about kids and their behaviour. There are a few kids who are a danger to others, but usually the system finds them. There are kids who for whatever reason disrupt the classroom with their behaviour, some are easy to deal with some aren't. That often depends on parental attitude.

2 kids in the same Year 8 class. Both big problems, disrupting the class. One got into fight (I broke it up, blows exchanged, now we're mates) and was sent to a pupil referral unit. Mother realised that this was the chance to sort her kid, backed them to the hilt. He is now back in school, not perfect, still has some anger issues, but controls himself, doesn't disrupt the class. Getting his education.

Other kid - continual lip and insolence, bad behaviour, no effort. Father seen umpteen times, believes the school is picking on her. No support for the school. Result - she is getting worse, and will soon be expelled. No education, cycle continues.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

Once again Smudge I have to agree with all you said. 
With hindsight I picked the wrong example, though I did point out that that school was exceptionally tough. The difference today seems to be what occurred at that school was in those days rare, whereas today it seems regrettably to be more common. 
The recent suggestion by a government minister that classes of 30 plus pupils is not a problem evoked the response from me that classes of that size are an excercise in crowd control, not teaching. 
Nurses now seem to be a frequent target of violence, personally, I'd leave the swines to bleed. 

Roy.


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## Smudger (21 Jun 2008)

I can understand why people hit us teachers, after all we tell them off, give them messages they don't want to hear and act as professional disapprovers - but why hurt a nurse or doctor? Or chuck stones at a fireman?

I really don't understand that.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

Sign of the times though I fear.

Roy.


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## Anonymous (21 Jun 2008)

Smudger":325xf59r said:


> MDF_HAKA":325xf59r said:
> 
> 
> > Jake":325xf59r said:
> ...



Yeah I was kind of 'lumping them all together' there. and know that each case should be treated differently as needed but, how do you sort out those with some 'potential' and those without? How many chances do you give someone, at the expense of others, before saying 'enough is enough'?


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## Smudger (21 Jun 2008)

As many as it takes...

And lets be honest - a lot of us here must have been 'made' by the persistence of others. I know I was.


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## Anonymous (21 Jun 2008)

Smudger":np8ejpz0 said:


> As many as it takes...


 What about the cost to those affected by the actions of one individual? I know one youth who has been given chances time and time and time again, chances that those maybe more deserving didn't get. He is in his twenties now, he is still a complete **** and couldn't care less.


Smudger":np8ejpz0 said:


> And lets be honest - a lot of us here must have been 'made' by the persistence of others. I know I was.



Some of us were 'broken' they same way.


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## Smudger (21 Jun 2008)

Yes, there has to be a point where you give up. 
But you reach it less often than you think. It can take a lot of effort. The number of really bad kids is small. The number that are unhappy/disturbed/dragged up in a slum is much larger. You have to go with hunches, very often.

But then why do you think I'm knackered and taking early retirement  

I would never tolerate behaviour that prevented others from learning or being safe, but it still happened. What worries me is that a lot of young teachers don't seem to see that bigger picture.


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## Steve Maskery (21 Jun 2008)

MDF_HAKA":iw3w0fcq said:


> Some of us were 'broken' they same way.



I taught for 4 long dark miserable years and left without a job to go to, I had a mortgage and I was on my own. I had nightmares for many years afterwards. My own teaching days and my own schooldays were all mixed up. I still hate talking about it and typing this is difficult. Whilst I respect anyone who spends their days with these sprouts I really can't understand why anyone would want to.

I was strangled once by a 13 year old and my HOD wanted to know what I had done to upset him. That was the kind of support I got. That same individual went on to serve time for GBH. I have a friend who got Hepatitis (don't know which brand) from being bitten by a girl. He survived, but no-one should have to face that kind of abuse at work.

It won't come as a surprise to learn that I don't have any children.

I don't have a job, apart from what I get from writing and such, and that doesn't cover the depreciation on the workshop, let alone provide a salary. I've had yet another "We regret" letter this morning, but, depressing as it is, I'd rather die destitute in the gutter than go back to teaching.

Here's to oblivion.
S


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

Employers achieved the same for me! :lol: 

Roy.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

> but no-one should have to face that kind of abuse at work.



Absolutely!

Roy.


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## Smudger (21 Jun 2008)

No they shouldn't, but overall I've loved it for 35 years. But I don't imagine for a moment that I'm normal.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

> But I don't imagine for a moment that I'm normal.



Does membership of this forum count? :lol: 

Roy.


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## Smudger (21 Jun 2008)

As in normal or not quite so normal?

Now, let's think - a group of men having a long conversation about what kind of oil might stop rust forming on their extremely expensive tools...

46 posts about shooting boards... and another 54, making the round 100.

And 8 pages of jokes.

Difficult.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

> Difficult.



Must try harder!
2/10

Roy.


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## Rich (21 Jun 2008)

Schooldays, aah, I could'nt wait to leave, I left at 15 and went straight into heavy engineering, but that's another story, regarding my SM school, I can't fault, it the lessons that I liked were good and indepth, the teachers were tolerant and patient and always had time for those who were'nt quite so quick, the point I would like to make is. that school and it's teachers gave me the greatest gift in life for NOTHING, it was free! they gave me the ability to learn how to teach myself, for that, I am eternally grateful, the gift of knowledge and the thirst for it is fast being overtaken by I.T. I wonder how many young people would go to a library nowadays and look up archives to gain insight to the answer they seek, computers are good and useful, a wise old teacher leaves a computer standing, he/she makes learning fun, btw, the school dinners were cooked on site in those days, no fast food then, and you could go back for seconds, and the puddings were fab, and if there was snow on the ground, we still had to go out for footie and cricket and cross country running AND we were made to shower afterwards. good old days.

Regards,

Rich.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

How true Rich. I was asked some years ago to join our local college as a tutor in what they called 'Arts and Crafts' as I already taught apprentices.
I found that the best lesson I could give was to teach the students how to teach themselves.
I always attempted to introduce a little tale or two to get their interest. Like the subject of heat engines, I finished the lecture with the story of when I built my first rocket motor, and the resulting fire.
I never had a student fall asleep at least.
Unless they could manage it with their eyes open of course! :lol: 

Roy.


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## Rich (21 Jun 2008)

I expect I'll upset someone here but I have to speak as I see things, I honestly think that the next generation of teachers won't be as good as the generation that taught me, not in the public sector anyway, the way I see it is the same as engineering or carpentry or bricklaying for instance, since governments stopped giving grants to firms for taking on apprentices, nobody came through to pass on the skills and I feel that this has happened in education too, coupled with government interference in chopping and changing teaching methods and setting targets which in turn puts pressure on the teachers and the vast upturn in temporary teachers taking charge of classes at critical times of the term just leads to erosion of standards for my money, believe me, with my 2 boys, the stories I hear about school lessons, make me want to march up to the school and say to the head, "what is going on?"

Regards,
Rich.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

In support of that comment I use Sky as my ISP and that gives me access to people's posted opinions on news item. 
When you can decipher what the poster is saying that is. 
It is not uncommon for a post to start without a capital letter, to have no punctuation marks, no sentences, no paragraphs and numerous spelling mistakes to boot. 
People have also complained about Sky's own reporters mangling the English language. 
My all time favourite was the account of a shooting is South Africa where the woman was 'shot dead and killed!' 
No dung Sherlock! 

Roy.


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## Jake (21 Jun 2008)

Digit":10hr9n13 said:


> And please don't put suggestion as about capital punishment that I didn't make.



My point, which you are signally missing, is that corporal punishment clearly did not suceed in deterring the offences you cited. Given that your view is that a de-escalation in the violence of public/state responses to trangressive youth since your day has resulted in a bigger problem, the same logic suggests that the level of violence employed in your day was insufficient - or the transgressions you mentioned would not have happened. Hence, stoning, chopping off hands, etc. 

I didn't think it was that difficult a point to grasp really.


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## Karl (21 Jun 2008)

Steve Maskery":3hn08lp2 said:


> I taught for 4 long dark miserable years .... I had nightmares for many years afterwards. I still hate talking about it and typing this is difficult. Whilst I respect anyone who spends their days with these sprouts.....
> 
> I was strangled once by a 13 year old .... no-one should have to face that kind of abuse at work.
> 
> ...



f**k me Steve - that is the most depressing post (which I have paraphrased for emphasis) I have ever read......

I find the reference to not having children most disturbing.

Karl

(who usually signs off "cheers", but doesn't feel like it)


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

> My point, which you are signally missing, is that corporal punishment clearly did not suceed in deterring the offences you cited.


 
And my point which you have missed is that the level of violence where corporal punishment was available was considerasbly lower than where it was not! 
Even capital punishment did not and does not prevent all murders. 
No known punishment has yet managed to prevent all forms of anti social behavior, for which in your profession you should be very grateful. 
If punishment reduces these incidents then we must be grateful. 

Roy.


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## Jake (21 Jun 2008)

Digit":ibsxxkf4 said:


> > My point, which you are signally missing, is that corporal punishment clearly did not suceed in deterring the offences you cited.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I got your point thanks - in the sense that I know what you are trying to say - what I don't know is (a) whether it is statistically correct or (b) whether the correlation is with the absence of corporal punishment or something else entirely. If your point is right though, I was suggesting an improvement to make it more effective.


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## Digit (21 Jun 2008)

In answer to that Jake I can assure that those who were Birched, for example, seemed rarely to risk a second dose, and the single most effective crime prevention method remains to this day incarceration.

Roy.


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## Jake (22 Jun 2008)

Surely decapitation or something would be more effective than incarceration - at least if all prisoners are not given 'life means life' sentences?

I was caned more than once at school. It just made me hate the sprouts.


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## Jake (22 Jun 2008)

Digit":1zhuqjwc said:


> No known punishment has yet managed to prevent all forms of anti social behavior, for which in your profession you should be very grateful.



I don't do that kind of law.


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## RogerS (22 Jun 2008)

Jake - as you tend to take a more moderate view from the 'hang 'em high' team, perhaps you'd like to suggest what should be done in our society against anti-social behaviour, assault on the medical fraternity, knifing etc?


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## BradNaylor (22 Jun 2008)

Smudger":3i8ri0hn said:


> Except that for many it's 'just a phase'. I have lost count of the number of little tearaways I've dealt with, excluded, expelled, ranted at and torn my hair out over, who at the age of 22 are responsible, hardworking pillars of the community. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but most kids who get in trouble at school sort themselves out when they have to/when they meet a good girl/when they realise the work:money relationship.
> 
> I had a 42-year old come back and see me a while ago. I excluded him a couple of times, and he was troublesome, but now he's a responsible dad, craftsman etc. He's moving away and he didn't want to go without coming and saying thanks - for keeping on his case and not giving up on him. That's the trick, if there is one.



This to me is the the most important snippet from this thread, and the reason why I manage to stay optimistic about the 'youth of today'.

My ex wife and I had terrible problems with my stepson - from the age of 14 he never went near school, was repeatedly picked up by the police for being drunk and getting into fights, and I'm certain he got involved in joyriding cars. He once came at me with a kitchen knife for trying to make him go to school.

It was with a lot of trepidation that I took him on at work aged 16. 

He took to woodworking immediately, although the C&G course I enrolled him on was useless - he was working to a far higher level already - and he left after a couple of months.

After training and working with me for 3 years he landed a job with one of the area's premier bespoke cabinetmaking companies. Now 27, he's almost running the place and is overseeing major projects all over the country and abroad. And pulling in around £30k a year.

Needless to say he found a nice girl and has settled down.

I'm very proud of him.

I'm quite proud of myself!

So never give up on a 'bad lad'.

Cheers
Dan


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## Digit (22 Jun 2008)

I've seen it myself Dan and is the reason why we often continue beyond what common sense dictates, and it's very rewarding when it occurs. It is of course the reason why training was seen as an important part of the prison regime at one time. 

Roy.


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## Jake (22 Jun 2008)

RogerS":3b2m69dd said:


> Jake - as you tend to take a more moderate view from the 'hang 'em high' team, perhaps you'd like to suggest what should be done in our society against anti-social behaviour, assault on the medical fraternity, knifing etc?



One would be more intervention against the parents of young children (below the age of full criminal responsibility) - not slapping them in jail, but imposing some punishment to make them face up to parental responsibilities, incorporating training in how not to be a feckless parent. 

I think restorative justice should be given a good shot in the criminal system for youth in particular. The 'cautioning culture' might be cheap, but if a caution is going to be enough to bring home the gravity of doing wrong to a kid, it's going to do it the first time. Better ways need to be found to get the message through as to why things are 'wrong', rather than just increasing fear levels. 

This should be coupled with a relaxing of the requirement to have to prove awareness of right and wrong under the age of 14 - within the context of that youth system (maintaining the full-on youth justice system to deal with child murderers etc). I think there's a real sense that gets instilled in kids who are heading off on the wrong tracks that they are untouchable - which they are certainly right about up to 10, and to some extent up to 14.

For the most part, it's education and trying to get the little gits to see things from other perspectives - like the victim's. 

I do think that the culture of authority figures not being to handle children physically without cries of assault from child and parent needs to be dealt with - not that I want a return to the old tolerance of the sadistic tendencies of a minority (we probably all knew one or two). There's a middle way.

As for caning,I'm actually pretty ambivalent. As Dan pointed out, it isn't that painful, almost more humiliating. I'm just not sure it really helps. There was plenty of violence amongst the young while it was in use - so if violence is the answer, it needs to be escalated to something more brutal.


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## Digit (22 Jun 2008)

Agreed Jake. One point here where I think Smudger would agree with me is where feckless parents insist that it is the job of the schools to instill discipline. That cannot be correct, it must start with the parents.

Roy.


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## Smudger (22 Jun 2008)

Yes - except that self-discipline comes from a strong self-image and self-respect, which schools can do a great deal to help with. But parents have to set the stage and reinforce, couldn't agree more.


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## Rich (22 Jun 2008)

Earlier on in this subject I gave my views on the quality of teachers to come, this was purely off my own back and my very own opinion which I made quite clear.
having read the Sunday Express today, it has been announced by a government minister that my views are indeed correct, are the government reading this forum? if so, i want consultancy fees. :lol: after all, I noticed before they did, or did I? perhaps they knew this all along :shock: .

Regards,
Rich.


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