# Sharpening chisels - the old way?



## Anonymous (6 Nov 2006)

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## ike (7 Nov 2006)

I tend to do the same when I just want to get on with the job in hand. Sometimes it's just too much faff to set the sharpening stall out and use a honing guide. 

However I still think an angle grinding fixture is a very useful aid when eventually you need to come back to a tidy new primary bevel. 

Maybe I'm just not very good at it cos of my bins, but successive honing eventually makes the sharp end look like a dogs breakfast.

(Yup, I'm a time-served engineer :roll

Ike


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## bugbear (7 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2r3u2de0 said:


> I think I've found out how to sharpen chisels at last! It's taken 40 years.



I think you've invented the rounded bevel that the old manuals recommend grinding to get rid of!!

BugBear


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## Anonymous (7 Nov 2006)

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## Anonymous (7 Nov 2006)

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## Anonymous (7 Nov 2006)

Plerase do a set of photos Jacob to show what you mean


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## Anonymous (7 Nov 2006)

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## Colin C (7 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3p5qc4zq said:


> I now realise that a honing guide is not much help with sharpening, infact is a big hindrance and makes the whole process much harder and slower.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



Hi Jacob,

I have a question  .

Have you ever tried using a honing guide :roll: :wink: ?
I for years thought there where a wast of time but I always had problems getting a consistently sharp edge ( I used an indian oil stone and blue handled stanley chisels ).
I would have days ( not many :roll: ) when I could get an edge right away but after reading Kingshott's book, I got one for 50p at a car boot and gave it a try and get edges done a lot quicker than I used to.

If you can get you tolls sharpened by hand then great for you but some have a problem like me and I have found a honing jig the way to go, plus like you I work for myself so time is money.

I have a simple jig to set my angles and it takes seconds to set them up, plus on whole I use a single bevel ( that is unless I hit a nail or screw, the joy of repairing old furniture :evil: ) :wink: 

Regards Colin


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## Anonymous (7 Nov 2006)

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## gidon (7 Nov 2006)

What's wrong with this sharpening method?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM2tiu8zS0E
Cheers
Gidon


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## Colin C (7 Nov 2006)

Hi Jacob,

I will post my jig for the Eclipse jig which is simple to make and quick to use.
I also use to work with a guy that had the stanley one and found that his wheels had worn down a bit, so it was not giving him the same angles on his tools.

I do hand sharpen my carving tools but I us e a diamond stone for all and finish with leather and autosolve


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## George_N (7 Nov 2006)

gidon":v7wzekxs said:


> What's wrong with this sharpening method?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM2tiu8zS0E
> Cheers
> Gidon



That is the biggest honing jig I have ever seen :lol:


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## dchenard (7 Nov 2006)

Freehand sharpening isn't hard, but it can be intimidating until you've tried it. I was kind of "forced" to do it in a WW course, and found it very liberating in the end. A grinder, a 1000 and a 8000 waterstone, that's all that's needed, it is very fast and very sharp...

Unrelated question, what's this thing about the cars in the UK having boots? Over here we use tires :mrgreen: 

DC

Ducking and running


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## Colin C (7 Nov 2006)

Dc

I never had water stones when I used to sharpen free hand ( just a norton combi oil stone) so no 8000 grit for me :roll: :wink: .

I had times when the wire edge would not come off  doing it by hand and find that I get consistence edges with it


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## Frank D. (7 Nov 2006)

I don't really understand the time argument. I sharpen both freehand and with jigs, but it only takes me about ten or twenty seconds to get a blade in the jig. Once it's in, it doesn't come out until sharpening is finished, and it probably saves me ten or twenty seconds because I don't have to rock the chisel (or blade) on the stone to feel where the primary bevel is. A quick touch up is faster by hand but anything more there's little difference.


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## dchenard (7 Nov 2006)

Frank D.":dh2kt1xx said:


> I don't really understand the time argument. I sharpen both freehand and with jigs, but it only takes me about ten or twenty seconds to get a blade in the jig. Once it's in, it doesn't come out until sharpening is finished, and it probably saves me ten or twenty seconds because I don't have to rock the chisel (or blade) on the stone to feel where the primary bevel is. A quick touch up is faster by hand but anything more there's little difference.



OK, before I open my big mouth, what jig do you use?

DC

Looks like a Canadian invasion all of a sudden


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## Frank D. (7 Nov 2006)

Open wide Denis,
I use the LV Mk I most of the time (except for my #8 and 112 blades, and narrow chisels).


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## dchenard (7 Nov 2006)

Frank D.":ihzuq6ia said:


> Open wide Denis,
> I use the LV Mk I most of the time (except for my #8 and 112 blades, and narrow chisels).



Well, Quick-draw McGraw, I've never been that fast with setting my Mk. I jig... If I tried to rush it I would either not register the blade properly, resulting in either a crooked blade that would sharpen unevenly, or setting the angle just off a bit, or both.

The Mk. II is more foolproof, but takes more time to set.

Freehand, it's just a matter of find the contact angle with the stone, lock your arms, and hone away. Even cambered blades are easy to do.

A jig will give you more consistent results, but I think it's worth training oneself to hone without one. I still have my MK. II (gave the MK. I to my father), but haven't used it in a while. I keep it as insurance for a "bad honing day"...

By the time one fetches the jig from its storage, adjusts the revolving turret stop to the proper angle, registers the blade against the stop and sets the micro-bevel knob to the proper location, I'll probably be done honing a blade freehand. If more than one grit is used, then the jig and blade should be rinsed to avoid bringing the rougher grit to the finer stone, the micro-bevel knob adjusted if desired, then do the next grit, and so on.

Once the job is done, the jig needs to be cleaned and stored...

Earlier this year there was that article about sharpening on paper in FWW, with the title "Razor sharp in two minutes". Yeah right... The author didn't account for all the steps...

To each his own, and there's nothing wrong with using jigs, but I prefer the freedom and speed of doing it freehand.

DC


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## Anonymous (7 Nov 2006)

Colin C":4q667owh said:


> I do hand sharpen my carving tools but I us e a diamond stone for all and finish with leather and autosolve



It works great doesnt it, soovol autosol chrome polish. I tried it for a laugh and found it worked just fine even though its not "proper veritable industry kit" :roll: :lol: :lol: 
I put it onto leather on shaped wood blocks for doing eg my adze, gouge, billhook etc. Theres a canadian inuit?? bloke uses something similar with a horizontal disc of wood covered with leather powered by a washing machine motor, for elbow adzes and such. 
Are them blue handle chisel steels any good???
PS I have a norton oil stone but do not rate it highly, espcially now I have some waterstones bester, Arashiyama, Splex, Sun tiger etc.
Cheers Jonathan


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## Colin C (7 Nov 2006)

Hi Jonathan,

The blue stanley's are ok ( well the ones I had were), I dont have them any more but have the old black handled ones for site work and Most of the chisels I have in the workshop are old marples ( which I like alot ).

I do the same with the wooden block for most of my carving tools too, when sharp they will oak end grain with no problem


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## Frank D. (7 Nov 2006)

That's fine Denis,
Goes to show that everyone works differently and has to find a system adapted to their own practices and needs. I keep all my sharpening stuff together, so no extra time there to get something out of "storage". I also see we're not quite talking about the same thing...as I mentioned when I hone only I don't use a jig. But if I do a full sharpening, I do use one. I do heavily cambered blades by hand though. I use Charleworth's method of three bevels too (the first one on a grinder, the other two on stones), which I probably couldn't do very well freehand. This method also saves me time. 
But I'm not arguing with you here, as I said to each their own...the hard part is finding a system you can call your own. Like any system you have to stick with it and perfect it. Speed will come no matter what you do, I think.


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## engineer one (7 Nov 2006)

this is all very well and good, but it does ignore one thing.

if you have not been trained to sharpen, then you have to learn and get the feel, and unless you use a guide, and get used to the feel of sharpening at the right angle, then you will NEVER have properly sharp tools.

i accept that for many people there comes a time when freehand is fine and dandy, but for ordinary mortal, then guides or the tormeks are the way to get you started.

once you have learnt to sharpen, then you can develop extra skills, and spend time learning new methods, but one of the things i was taught as an engineer was learn something as your benchmark, then experiment, but if you do not know where to start, you will be forever floundering.

jacob this method may well work for you, but i feel that you are always looking for methods which do not mean giving in to the modern world, which is fine, but like so many magazine articles leads people to think that it is but a two minute job, when in fact it takes some time to be that quick.

proper sharpening is the only way to ensure that you enjoy your woodworking, but it does take a little time to learn the skill, and you should not be scared of admitting that you do not know.

paul :wink:


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## dchenard (8 Nov 2006)

engineer one":23kxoj0f said:


> i accept that for many people there comes a time when freehand is fine and dandy, but for ordinary mortal, then guides or the tormeks are the way to get you started.



But I am a mere mortal, and freehand sharpening is not hard. I do NOT possess superhuman powers, actually my hands aren't that steady...

I wish I had learned freehand sooner, I would have had more time woodworking... :wink: 

DC


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## engineer one (8 Nov 2006)

but dc you have agreed with my point, you started doing something else and then came to freehand :lol: :lol: 

i wonder sometimes whether there ought not to be a health warning on two particular posting types on the site. extraction and sharpening :twisted: :roll: :lol: 

let's be really honest, the problem is that tools come not sharpened properly so we have to learn about it before we can start woodworking. :?  

all the best
paul :wink:


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## Frank D. (8 Nov 2006)

Seems like David Charlesworth is still busy learning with all his guides and his Tormek...poor chap!
:lol:


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## dchenard (8 Nov 2006)

engineer one":3q26wqtm said:


> but dc you have agreed with my point, you started doing something else and then came to freehand :lol: :lol:
> 
> i wonder sometimes whether there ought not to be a health warning on two particular posting types on the site. extraction and sharpening :twisted: :roll: :lol:
> 
> ...



Sure, I thought jigs were the way to go at the beginning. I still think they have their place, but I'm just trying to free myself from them...

Honing a blade at 50-55 degree is difficult, and in that case I'll probably go back to the jig if I can't do it satisfactorly freehand. But the lower the bevel angle the easier it is to hone freehand IMHO.

In my view, sharpening freehand is no different than mastering hand-cut dovetails. Practice, practice, and some more practice. I still have a way to go on that front  

DC


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## dchenard (8 Nov 2006)

Frank D.":oms79dm9 said:


> Seems like David Charlesworth is still busy learning with all his guides and his Tormek...poor chap!
> :lol:



Come on, Frank... 

You pick whatever method you're happy with, and I'm sure DC won't mind as long as you're getting good results... For the record, I use his ruler trick on all my plane blades (regardless of BU or BD), that is a great time saver. But you know what? The ruler trick is much easier to apply if the blade is not captured in a jig...

DC (the other one)


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

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## MikeW (8 Nov 2006)

dchenard":3ti0g3xy said:


> ...Honing a blade at 50-55 degree is difficult, and in that case I'll probably go back to the jig if I can't do it satisfactorly freehand...


Holding the blade sideways to the direction of the honing stroke enables one to hone as high of an angle as one desires.

It also enables full use of the stone fairly easily.


dchenard":3ti0g3xy said:


> In my view, sharpening freehand is no different than mastering hand-cut dovetails. Practice, practice, and some more practice. I still have a way to go on that front
> 
> DC


Pretty much true. But then again, not everyone desires to hone by hand. Not everyone desires to sharpen a saw, not everyone...

This is not directed at anyone in particular. Just another trip to the top of the soapbox...

I think woodworkers often strive for perfection in things like sharpening. Both in how sharp/refined it needs to be as well as absolute angles.

My feeling about guides or motorized equipment is...if it gets one back to work faster, great. Wanna learn to hone by hand? Do it. Don't wanna? Don't.

I also think that if one believes they can get better sharpening by whatever the chosen method is, work wood, sharpen, work more wood, etc., and through the process of doing, one will get better. Sometimes a method just doesn't seem to click and another method is chosen and it does. Great. Use it, but don't stop striving to learn thinking you've arrived.

I know of no professional woodworker who has not changed either their method of sharpening over time, or changed their idea of what sharp is--or both.

Ok. Off the soapbox.

Take care, Mike


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

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## bugbear (8 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1x5h9wn3 said:


> This is a different sort of rounded bevel!
> The old sort you need to remove by grinding is the result of hasty sharpening where you tilt the chisel ever higher to get a hone on the blunt edge, until eventually it is too steep.
> With my rounded bevel the cutting edge never changes i.e. at the cutting edge the tangent to the radius of the curved bevel stays at 30deg to the face.



I don't understand what part of this technique would keep the terminal tangent constant (other than a God like ability to eye ball *exactly* 30 degrees).

It strikes me that your terminal tangent is no more and no less likely to creep upwards that in the "classic" technique of the old books.

BugBear


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## Alf (8 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":312g7h43 said:


> after all I'm not writing this with a fountain pen!


Illusions shattered 



Mr_Grimsdale":312g7h43 said:


> 3 You have to fiddle again to change from grind angle to hone


If you don't grind by another method anyway.



Mr_Grimsdale":312g7h43 said:


> 4 You can't use the full length of the stone (unless you've added a block at each end of the box)


Erm, you can just turn the stone round and go the other way for half the time, can't you...?



Mr_Grimsdale":312g7h43 said:


> 5 You can't grind at a skew or in a pattern like figure of 8 - to help even wear on the stone.


If BB isn't along soon to query the figure-of-8 argument then I mis-judge him. (Even as I type this, he beats me to it!)



Mr_Grimsdale":312g7h43 said:


> 8 It gets you hung up on getting those bright engineered bevels - they look nice but are completely unnecessary


Mmm, guilty of that as charged. I'm trying to do better, along with not over-sharpening; just because I can get a wicked edge on a scrub blade, there's no excuse to waste time doing so.

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (8 Nov 2006)

But I now think that honing jigs actually make the job much more difficult:
>> 1 You have to fiddle about fitting it to the blade.

Takes me around ten seconds - given the overhead of removing a blade from a plane, detaching the capiron, and then reversing the process after honing, this is negligible

>> 2 Not all blades or chisels fit various models
Agreed. But MOST sharpening is done on the MOST used tool. Straight bladed chisels and bench plane irons.

>> 3 You have to fiddle again to change from grind angle to hone
No; if you use traditional European style "double bevel", grinding is very infrequent, and not of consequence in every day sharpening.

>> 4 You can't use the full length of the stone (unless you've added a block at each end of the box)

Agreed. A genuine disadvantage. Since I use multiple stones, I don't have a block. To distribute wear I sometime turn the stone end-for-end.

>> 5 You can't grind at a skew or in a pattern like figure of 8 - to help even wear on the stone. Freehand you can use the whole surface how you like.

Agreed - but see answer to point 2.

>> 6 It gets in the way when you want to turn it over to take off the wire edge

Any small guide with a decent amount of prejection doesn't. I'll agree that 
turning the blade over when it's in my big jig is a problem.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour. ... pening_jig

>> 7 It gets in the way if you want to do DavidC's micro bevel
My blades are all fully flat.

>> 8 It gets you hung up on getting those bright engineered bevels - they look nice but are completely unnecessary

They're just a consequence, not a goal.

>> 9 Because it's such a faff it means you are likely to delay touching up your chisel and so spend longer with a dull edge - which defeats the whole object.

see (1).

>> 10 They wear out

So does everything.

>> 11 You can't get maximum pressure on the blade edge - the guide is taking some of the load, unless you lift it slightly so it's not quite touching - but if you can do that you don't need it anyway.

Regular sharpening involves removing small amounts of metal; high pressure are not required or desirable.

>> 12 Doing it freehand is quite easy really and even a beginner shouldn't be put off - infact is better kept well away from a honing guide or he will never get on top of it.

Circular reasoning

>> 13 Double sided stones are cheap - most households have one somewhere even if not in use - in the shed or in a drawer somewhere.

Double sided stones are messy when you turn them over (unless you spend time wiping down every time you turn over); I normally use a sequence of 2 stones, both of which are kept oiled and ready for (quick!) use.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

why squable about it if you get a decent edge with your devics fine if your more intuitive fine why worry :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

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## Sgian Dubh (8 Nov 2006)

*A Lesson in Sharpening.*

A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job. 

Naturally, the subject is of interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. 

My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.

1. Those that can’t.

2. Those that can.

In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.

In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant along with a few slips for gouges and the like.

Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Get that piece o’ wood square." 

I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or so minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.

"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"

I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, which was followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about eighty or so per cent of its original volume!)

"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane you’ve bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.

"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. Again I did as I was told.

"Now, can yu’ see it? Can yu’ see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.

"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.

"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired. 

I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."

He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie wi’ me son. If yu’ can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron y'er holdin’ bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Get o’er here an’ I’ll show yu’ something."

You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally it was stropped backwards and forwards on the calloused palm of his hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. 

On went the cap iron and the lot was dropped back in the plane followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.

"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yu’ may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. Ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yu’. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yu’ started."

For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time he allowed me to under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit," I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work. 

"Aye, nae too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time’ll tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yu’ cannae even shairpen yer feckin’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."

I haven't.


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## dedee (8 Nov 2006)

Can I assume that the cabinetmaker didn't use a jig then? :lol: 

Nice story - I can only wonder how good I might have been had I had a guv'nor like that.

I always thought the first sign of a sharp edge was noticing the blood on the wood before you realised you'd cut youself :lol: 

Andy (DMT, Eclipse jig, & wet 'n dry)


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## houtslager (8 Nov 2006)

SD wrote


> "Now, can yu’ see it? Can yu’ see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.
> 
> "Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.
> 
> ...



SNAP only it was in GERMAN and I ain't going to EVEN try putting it in words.
All I remember is that my fingers ,wrists and forearms hurt lilke hell after my first week, 'cause I had 2 "masters" tool chests to sharpen. :? 

Now as I type I have my no4 and no 5 waiting to kiss the stone.


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## Alf (8 Nov 2006)

Sgian Dubh":1e72ym95 said:


> *A Lesson in Sharpening.*


Ah, had to happen at some point - I'm sure you resisted last time I tried getting you to post this, Richard. :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (8 Nov 2006)

Sgian Dubh":fejzdwye said:


> *A Lesson in Sharpening.*



Great =D> =D> 

Paul


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## woodbloke (8 Nov 2006)

Sgain Dubh wrote:


> You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm.



This degree off sharpness is easily and effortlessly achieved with the DMT diamond stone/jeweller's rouge strop as Waka will testify when he took allot of hair from his arm in my 'shop the other day :lol: 

I've just been doing a load of d/t's for the elm chest and I haven't even bothered to touch up the chisel on the DMT stone, all I have done is to strop the bevel half a dozen times, wipe off the goo and polish the flat side on the stone, about 5 seconds in all. This is the same technique that a woodcarver will use to constantly keep on re-honing/polishing the edge on carving gouges and the like..._great_ story tho' - Rob


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## Frank D. (8 Nov 2006)

The problem I've found with rouge and strops is that you have to strop the backs of blades for it to be effective, which means rounding them over slightly. So on a plane blade you lose clearance and on a chisel you lose the flat back. Slight rounding over isn't critical, if it isn't desirable, on carving gouges because you have bevels on both sides.
I have no problems wearing my stones evenly with a guide...I just use a side-to-side motion instead of other fancy figures on half the stone as has been stated, then turn the stone around after a while and continue.
I know I'm slow but I still don't quite understand Mr Grimsdale's method. It seems to me that you have to take off a certaain amount of metal no matter how you go about it--guide or not, rounded or not. The only real shortcut is increasing the angle as you round off the bevel, which merely leaves you with more metal to take off next time (so there's no real shortcut).


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## Sgian Dubh (8 Nov 2006)

Alf":2rxqyu8n said:


> - I'm sure you resisted last time I tried getting you to post this, Richard. Cheers, Alf



I didn't see your coaxing effort last time Alf. I miss a lot being primarily a one minute skimmer when I visit the forum. I haven't got the time to loiter really.

Anyway, sharp is sharp. Who cares how you get there-- so long as it's quick. I haven't got much patience for sharpening. Just a quick, "How's yer father?" and back to work has always been my style-- no jigs and very basic. Slainte.


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

dchenard":1ia42hvo said:


> Frank D.":1ia42hvo said:
> 
> 
> > Open wide Denis,
> ...



Nothing odd in what Frank says - I get my blades or chisles in the mk2 LV guide in under 20 seconds every time. The registration is built in.

Free hand is fine if you like it but I do not think is quicker and I do not think the edge is as good every time when sharpening freehand. Jig gives consistency, particularly mk2 LV


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

sgian, I cant work out if your anecdot was done with an oierish or a scorts arksent :wink: :lol: It certainly wurssent yarksher :lol:


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## dchenard (8 Nov 2006)

Tony":vtfr195d said:


> Jig gives consistency, particularly mk2 LV



True, so does practising freehand honing 

DC


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## David C (8 Nov 2006)

"The opening sequence of David Charlesworth's latest DVD shows him securing a chisel in a honing guide and putting the tool to the stone for four strokes. He adjusts the tool in the jig, cleans the jig's wheel and takes four more strokes on a polishing stone. Two more strokes polish the unbeveled side of the chisel and then he shaves his left wrist for the camera.

Total elapsed time: 1:21."

"The most shocking thing about the DVD for many woodworkers will be to see how few strokes Charlesworth uses when honing. Four or five on each grit, maybe. I watch some woodworkers do 50 to 100 strokes on a single grit. I've always thought this is an enormous waste of effort, so it's good to see this lesson reinforced."

Two quotes from a review of DVD 4 posted by Chris Schwarz on the Popular Woodworking blog or is it news. You have to scroll down quite far to find it now.

htttp://www.popularwoodworking.com/blog/default.aspx

I use an Eclipse type side clamping guide, three King Japanese waterstones and can teach a beginner to get chisels exactly as sharp as mine in one day.

All other methods work, it is just a case of finding what suits you and gets the job done quickly & efficiently, exactly as Richard and others say.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

PS Chris has slightly exaggerated the speed, for journalistic purposes. On the seventh resharpening between re grinds, I might need about twelve to fifteen strokes on an 800 grit waterstone, and four on a polishing stone.

On the first sharpening after re grind, I would expect to take no more than two strokes on 800g waterstone.

I think I use twelve short to & fro strokes to polish off wire edge.

Just being a wee bit pedantic, as usual, but extremely grateful to Chris who understands what I am getting at.


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## Anonymous (8 Nov 2006)

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## Colin C (8 Nov 2006)

Frank D.":290sqp5l said:


> The problem I've found with rouge and strops is that you have to strop the backs of blades for it to be effective, which means rounding them over slightly.



Hi Frank,

I used to get this when I had my oil stone ( one of the reasons that I now use a daimond stone ) but with a strop it is much smaller if much at all


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## Frank D. (9 Nov 2006)

Thanks Colin,
I'll have to keep at it. I'm also going to try turning the leather around and use the smooth side up.


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## David C (9 Nov 2006)

Without the guide, the angles would not be maintained, especially by beginners.

David C


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## woodbloke (9 Nov 2006)

> Frank D. wrote:
> The problem I've found with rouge and strops is that you have to strop the backs of blades for it to be effective, which means rounding them over slightly.



_Only_ the bevel side is stropped, the flat side is polished on the DMT stone so there is _no_ effective rounding. Rouge is such a fine polish that the degree of rounding on the bevel edge side is insignificant - Rob


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## bugbear (9 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3gd5oj4a said:


> David C":3gd5oj4a said:
> 
> 
> > "The opening sequence of David Charlesworth's latest DVD shows him securing a chisel in a honing guide and putting the tool to the stone for four strokes. He adjusts the tool in the jig, cleans the jig's wheel and takes four more strokes on a polishing stone. Two more strokes polish the unbeveled side of the chisel and then he shaves his left wrist for the camera.
> ...



Apples and Oranges, old boy. The whole point (IMHO) of jigged sharpening is that you can exactly and consistently hit the same tiny (secondary) bevel every time. That's why the stroke count can be so low, and the sharpening pleasingly quick. It also maximises the life of the tool, by minimising the amount of metal removed.

With freehand you need more strokes because you can't guarantee the honing angle accurately; some of the (fast) strokes are just wasted.

In particular (and obviously?), any stroke at an angle other than the final bevel has no effect on the edge.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (9 Nov 2006)

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## dchenard (9 Nov 2006)

David C":pdszwexq said:


> Without the guide, the angles would not be maintained, especially by beginners.
> 
> David C



Quite possibly, but all those who have developed proficiency in freehand sharpening were beginners at some point... :wink: 

DC (the next generation :lol: )


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Nov 2006)

Boys and girls! Play nicely in the sandpit, now.

Yes, a honing guide does enable one to repeat a setting.

And a repeated setting means that a fresh face is not honed each time.

Which means that one is not wasting time rediscovering one's bevel.

I have written a fair amount number of articles on the LV Honing Guide Mk II. I am no stranger to the Eclipse. I believe that honing guides have an important place to play.

But....

... there is something emotionally satisfying about honing an edge freehand. 

If you are not woodworking for a living (I would starve at the rate I work!), then you are doing it for the pleasure.

Still, it is possible to make freehand honing both accurate and quick. For a start, I reserve the below method for blades used in bevel down planes and most chisels (the exceptions are Japanese and mortice). To maximise the ease of freehand honing, blades require to be hollow ground. It is easier to hold a (bevel) side flat on two points than on one wide point. 

For blades used in bevel up planes, it is more important to grind and hone at specific bevel angles than it is for BD planes. I grind a flat bevel on a belt sander, then add microbevels with the LV Honing Guide Mk II. 

I hollow grind blades on a 6" high speed grinder (I have toyed with the idea of getting a 8" one but do not know if there is anything to gain - the deeper hollow of the 6" wheel should last longer). It is possible to grind a bevel at a desired angle, should this be important. Well, I do like to use 20 degrees for paring chisels and 30 degrees for plane blades (particularly the HNT Gordon planes). This is easy enough if one uses the Tormek Pro Anglemaster:







Blades set up this way only require a few strokes on 800, then 1200, then 8000 King waterstones. Truly.











Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (9 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":f6ezicdw said:


> bugbear":f6ezicdw said:
> 
> 
> > snip
> ...



I don't think any of the grits appropriate for honing are going to remove enough material to achieve any significant "backing off".

These (IMHO wasted) strokes are simply polishing something which isn't the edge.

BugBear


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## bugbear (9 Nov 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Still, it is possible to make freehand honing both accurate and quick. For a start, I reserve the below method for blades used in bevel down planes and most chisels (the exceptions are Japanese and mortice). To maximise the ease of freehand honing, blades require to be hollow ground. It is easier to hold a (bevel) side flat on two points than on one wide point.



Yes - indeed BU blade are thick (which makes for a large bevel to "seat" on) and short (which decreases the moment trying to dislodge the blade from sitting squarely on its bevel).

I am perfectly happy that (e.g.) Japanse plane blades can be freehand honed using single bevel (the traditional Japanese way for these blades).

Bailey blades strike me as more problematic.

BugBear


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Nov 2006)

> Bailey blades strike me as more problematic.



BB

Yes they are more difficult. By comparison, freehanding a 1/4" Gordon bevel, a 3/16" parallel infill blade, or a deep 30 degree Japanese chisel is a walk in the park. I do not use many original Stanley plane blades, but I can and do hone these freehand. If any bevel is going to end up rounded, then it will be these as there is less area to register and stabilise the edge. It is inevitable that these get rocked more. If I were only working with these blades then I would have to get better than I am, or I would find myself using a guide more often.

Here are a bunch of marking knives I made up a few days ago. The bevels were all honed freehand. Sometimes it is all that one can do. There is no other choice of method.






Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Anonymous (9 Nov 2006)

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## Anonymous (9 Nov 2006)

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## Alf (9 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3s85vcc8 said:


> I got the idea from a piece of gorgonzola.


Sheesh, fancy foreign cheeses - wot's wrong with a bit of good old fashioned cheddar, huh? Been good enough for me for years and years and it's cheap too... Mmm, Cheddar and Lea & Perrins on Toast - cracking, Gromit. :wink: 

Cheers, Alf

Don't mind me; get on with serious sharpening discussion and I'll just sit here quietly. You know I did try to resist for all of, ooo, 3 seconds...


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## Frank D. (9 Nov 2006)

Alf":33qivntn said:


> You know I did try to resist for all of, ooo, 3 seconds...


With a honing guide I can resist for about a second and a half. Much faster...


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## Jake (9 Nov 2006)

Alf":cgp0s1yi said:


> Mmm, Cheddar and Lea & Perrins on Toast



Don't you break your teeth on that?


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## Paul Kierstead (9 Nov 2006)

Alf":mbn1vz2j said:


> .. Mmm, Cheddar and Lea & Perrins on Toast - cracking, Gromit. :wink:



Good lord. Now that is 3 delicious things that really ought to have remained 3 things.


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## MikeW (9 Nov 2006)

As long as this thread has drifted so and especially as we are discussing bringing, uh, 3 things together, you should see this assemblage of Walnut, brass and steel I have sitting beside me... :lol: 

Take care, Mike


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## Paul Kierstead (9 Nov 2006)

Now that is three things that belong togather. I greatly look forward to using it!


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## dchenard (9 Nov 2006)

Jake":274zm0en said:


> Alf":274zm0en said:
> 
> 
> > Mmm, Cheddar and Lea & Perrins on Toast
> ...



No, your stomach!  :mrgreen:

DC


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## Anonymous (10 Nov 2006)

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## bugbear (10 Nov 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Here are a bunch of marking knives I made up a few days ago. The bevels were all honed freehand. Sometimes it is all that one can do. There is no other choice of method.



Absolutely agreed. (ultimate case - moulding plane irons, which are always blunt compared to bench plane irons).

At the risk of using inflammatory language (hey - everyone else is ) you sometimes have to settle for a second best method  

Jigs give great results where useable, and in the (very common) case of rectilinear blades, they're also easy to use.

BugBear


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## Alf (10 Nov 2006)

Frankly the standard of culinary appreciation on this board is appalling - Chesse on Toast with L&P is a classic. Honestly, I may have to go elsewhere to find suitably cultured minds.. [-( :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## woodbloke (10 Nov 2006)

Alf wrote:


> Chesse on Toast with L&P is a classic.


I'm inclined to agree with you here, Alf tho' a sliced tomato or even some sliced mushrooms on top make it _even_ better - Rob


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## dedee (10 Nov 2006)

It's not bad with Marmite either.

Andy


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## Alf (10 Nov 2006)

Now _there's_ a provocative comment likely to cause a schism in the forum of epic proportions - sharpening ain't got nothing on pro- and anti-Marmite. 8-[

Taking for the hills, Alf 

:wink:


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## woodbloke (10 Nov 2006)

Dedee wrote:


> It's not bad with Marmite either.


No, no, not for me..... a thin scrape of Marmite on _hot_ wholemeal toast....luverly - Rob


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## Colin C (10 Nov 2006)

woodbloke":zvqlco4p said:


> Dedee wrote:
> 
> 
> > It's not bad with *Marmite *either.
> ...



If I did not know any better :roll: 
I would say this has gone a little off topic 
Ps I hate Marmite =; =;  8-[ :wink:


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## Jake (10 Nov 2006)

I find A2 a little hard to digest, so I don't approve of L&P on toast. The true path is to burn the cheese on toast a little until it has a little high carbon on the top.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Nov 2006)

Marmite? Marmite! Yuck! 

Say after me, "pass the *Vegemite*, please". 

Unfortunately, another True Blue Ozzie icon is bought out by an American multinational company.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Paul Chapman (10 Nov 2006)

Colin C":3tmxy702 said:


> Ps I hate Marmite =; =;  8-[ :wink:



And peanut butter is even worse - especially the one with lumps in it     

Paul

Edit: Sorry, didn't notice a separate thread had started on Marmite


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## dchenard (10 Nov 2006)

Alf":3uogk1py said:


> Frankly the standard of culinary appreciation on this board is appalling - Chesse on Toast with L&P is a classic. Honestly, I may have to go elsewhere to find suitably cultured minds.. [-( :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



Not wanting to start a war here, but I "toured" the UK in '98, starting in Cambridge (where I was presenting at a conference), then stopping in Snettisham, South Shields, West Woodburn, Edimburgh, Inverness, Fort William, Glasgow, Carlisle, Bath, and back to London (camping most of the time, that explains some of the smaller locales). Well, the only meal that was memorable in a good way was the haggis I had in Glasgow... :-k 

DC

Who uses L&P in some recipies


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## Alf (10 Nov 2006)

Alf":3aex6pos said:


> Frankly the standard of culinary appreciation on this board is appalling





dchenard":3aex6pos said:


> ...the only meal that was memorable in a good way was the haggis I had in Glasgow...


My case, m'lud, rests... :wink: :lol: (Was it deep-fried...?)


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## garywayne (10 Nov 2006)

Alf wrote:-



> (Was it deep-fried...?)



I thought that was Mars bars, Battered of coarse.


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## Alf (10 Nov 2006)

I think practically anything can be deep-fried...


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## dchenard (10 Nov 2006)

Alf":30hcs56r said:


> Alf":30hcs56r said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly the standard of culinary appreciation on this board is appalling
> ...



Nope, traditional way with neeps and tatties (the turnips were the best I've ever eaten, BTW).

Now, deep-frying a Mars bar, that's utterly gross    

DC

How about some poutine now?


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## Anonymous (10 Nov 2006)

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## dchenard (11 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":rlibe6wj said:


> Is it the poteen you have in mind? http://www.irish-poteen.com/



God no! [-X 

The poutine I'm talking about is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poutine

It's quite good tasting when well made, but the fat...

Your pizza was indeed gross...  :mrgreen: 

DC


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## engineer one (11 Nov 2006)

keerist, all those fat canadians, still at least they are french ones who ought to know better :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (11 Nov 2006)

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## Anonymous (11 Nov 2006)

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## David C (11 Nov 2006)

I think this is a classic case of old school, trade protectionism.
The Japanese apprentice is made to sharpen (no grinding) by hand for one year. This is the time they assign for learning these skills.

Those who can freehand are welcome to it.

Beginners need sharp edges from day one and are well advised to use a simple guide.

The problems of sharpening are much more to do with the flat back preparation and correct polishing away of wire edges.

Bevel side is a doddle in comparison.

David C


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## engineer one (11 Nov 2006)

whilst i appreciate that you are happy with your method jacob, it does as david says smack a little of the joiner arguing with a cabinet maker.

i believe as do most engineers, or those who have spent some time investigating sharp edges that the intersection has to be flat, however the whole advantage of the secondary bevel method was to reduce the amount of time taken when honing on a regular basis. 
if this system works for you then good, but it will not close off the argument, since it ignores the basic fact which is until you have been shown what a decent sharpening edge is you will not understand how to achieve it.

freehand sharpening has become a badge of honour to many and will i am sure send a lot of people off down a wrong slope again as they despair of getting the same edges as you. you have admitted to taking 40 years to get to this stage. using equipment that you cast clouts at i have managed in less than a couple of years to produce a number of sharp edges which are abused by others and returned broken and shattered after two or three months. now all those "customers" of mine were taught to sharpen freehand, but prefer the stability and accuracy of my jigged approach.

so i guess whilst an interesting discussion, and good luck to those who 
follow, it is wrong to suggest to beginners that they start out without a 
guide and no reference to how sharp something should be. :twisted: 

if you can freehand sharpen, well good luck to you, but obviouslyit is not the only method, and like all things it takes a skill that maybe it takes 40 years to develop. a jig at least gives you a starting point from which once confidence in your ability to produce sharp edges grows you can branch off into practising freehand with the knowledge of what you need to produce, then good luck to you too.

paul :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (11 Nov 2006)

I really don't think it matters which method you use, as long as it works for you. Once you do find the method that works for you, it's fabulous because you suddenly find that you stop worrying about it   

Cheers

Paul


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## Anonymous (11 Nov 2006)

Reading some of the posts here re first days in apprenticships made me recall my own.
When I started it was assumed I could sharpen bench plane blades and chisels. 
I was expected to be able to make most of the common joints, tenons and dovetails etc.
This was because of the exams I took before leaving Technical school (age 15),a pass in woodwork meant I was able to carry out the above mentioned to a specific standard.
Employers looked at that Certificate when one applied for an apprenticship.

Btw the first chore I got was when one cabinetmaker asked me to help him plane some "Rough Stuff".
I followed him to his workplace and he promptly handed me the sweeping brush to cleanup his work area!

Re sharpening jigs etc, I think there are a lot of amateur woodworkers who need to know the edges they sharpen are correct. 
Otherwise they may never know what is at fault if their work is not turning out as they wish.
In the absence of a someone to teach them the next best thing is a guide.
In this instance the price of a jig would be money well spent.
Later on when they are more experienced they can ditch them if they wish or sell them on ebay
We have a saying around here "you cant put an old head on young shoulders" let young in this instance stand for inexperienced.

Jacob, if it has taken you that long to figure out your method WITH your experience, what hope has a lesser mortal with hardly any experience? 

Another adage springs to mind(tongue in cheek) " you cant teach an old dog new tricks"

Keep up the _good_ work!


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## Colin C (11 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3ffxavud said:


> Why the addiction in the first place? I blame the honing jig, with which bevels are unavoidable. Honing jig isn't the answer to the problem - it's the cause.
> Its a bit like smoking; an innocent beginner gets offered a honing jig at a vulnerable age and becomes addicted. It doesn't do him any good and when he finally gives it up he wonders why he ever bothered in the first place. Should have a health warning on the packet. And it's a slippery slope leading to diamond blocks and even more unnecessary expense.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



Hi Jacob,

Your last bit is not right by me as I use to do all my sharpening by hand but could never get consistent results, so on reading Jim Kingshott 's book on sharpening ( he used a modified elipse jig with a simple jig for setting the angle ).
I thought I would give it a try and for me, I get very good consistent edges all the time. So for me it has made things a lot quicker as I now work for myself.
By the way have you had a look a how much you can get good diamond stone for as my 6"x2" was only £22 and I have had it for about 10 years ( well I have two, one for site and dont need oil )  

Colin


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## Anonymous (11 Nov 2006)

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## Frank D. (11 Nov 2006)

Jacob,
I'm happy for you that sharpening has become easier all of a sudden, but I don't think the rounded bevel will be an advantage for more than a few sharpenings. As you have said it doesn't matter whether the intersection that forms the edge is rounded or flat as long as the angle you want is at the edge (as long as the angle at the edge is a 30° tangent). But eventually your polishing will creep up over 30° if you want to continue polishing it, and you wil start to have clearance problems. Then your rounded bevel will be harder or at least more work to take off by hand. It's the same with carving gouges...once the bevel becomes too rounded it's back to the grinder or the coarse stones (so back to a flat bevel).


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## Anonymous (11 Nov 2006)

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## MikeW (11 Nov 2006)

Well, I was feeling rather smart for only posting one real response in this thread--my, how it's grown!

Me thinks Jacob has nearly been chastised for his communicating his method. I don't take his enthuisism for the method as trying to convert the world, rather a "hey, look, this works and is faster for me" sort of thing.

As a matter of perspective from my point of view, Jacob is pretty much describing how I sharpen my mortise chisels, at least in effect. I drag the mortise chisel towrds me on the stone starting off by holding it at the tip angle I desire. Then when pulling it back I slowly lower the handle.

There is a distinct small bevel at the tip [larger than the lamination. They are OBM chisels], a rounded transition and a gentle curve from there up to the face. Other than at the tip, the remainder while curved is at a lower angle.

This shape is pretty much maintained and I rarely need to grind the bevel. This is not much different than grinding my bench chisels at a lower angle and using a steeper secondary. I was just out in the shop doing some actual woodwork and needed to sharpen on of my OBMs and this thread came to mind.

Just as an experiment, I grabbed an old Butcher firmer and sharpened it in this manner. The important intersection still had a distinct bevel [very small] while the remainder of the "bevel" was rounded. I think this is because while I pulled the chisel towards myself, the tip's bevel angle was maintained for about half the distance on the stone before lowering the handle. 

As long as the curved, upper part has enough metal removed while sharpening, I can see how this method would forego the need to regrind a lower angle if one uses what is in effect a secondary bevel angle anyway. And, of course, hand sharpens.

I won't stick with this method for other than my OBMs because I prefer to slide the chisel/plane blade back and forth sideways for all but the smallest of chisels--it's what I am comfortable with. But it was worth a try for all of the couple minutes it took.

Take care, Mike
back to being smart and hiding...


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## David C (12 Nov 2006)

I think Mike has put his finger on an important point.

The language used is provocative to say the least.

Innocent, addicted, vulnerable, no use, unnecessary expense.

David C


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## Anonymous (12 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1z2soxoe said:


> The "classic cases" we have here with honing guides is firstly "solution to a problem which doesn't exist" and secondly with respect to manufacturers "selling tools by creating a need where one didn't previously exist"; which of course applies to about 90% of what you find in a typical catalogue.
> 
> Jacob



Couldn't agree with you more Jacob, just had a look through the rutlands catalogue, all great stuff but you don't need 90% of it, but a lot of people can't resist it because it looks good and is built well!!!


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## Paul Chapman (12 Nov 2006)

senior":1ax50jte said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":1ax50jte said:
> 
> 
> > The "classic cases" we have here with honing guides is firstly "solution to a problem which doesn't exist" and secondly with respect to manufacturers "selling tools by creating a need where one didn't previously exist"; which of course applies to about 90% of what you find in a typical catalogue.
> ...



And I bet Chippendale had never even heard of the Rutlands catalogue :wink: 

Cheers

Paul


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## Anonymous (12 Nov 2006)

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## engineer one (12 Nov 2006)

well, personally jacob i do think you try to be provocative, by trying to justify still using old methods which may well have been properly superceded by modern ones.

i say may have been because as you rightly have said in the past many modern things are not improvements. however what is interesting about the way this post has expanded is that you have only served to confirm what is sadly obvious, in that if you have proper training and experience, then many older methods work very well. however if you were not properly trained, or trained for too little time, then you will often become disenchanted by methods which do not seem to give instant gratification.

i am sure that you are right in that for you this method works well, but you have spent as you said 40 years before going back to the beginning.

my personal experience is that the edge i have managed to get from an
oil stone using it first, is not good enough. however, using other methods i do subsequently find that a quick hone after grinding is quite effective.

as for the rutlands catalogue et al, manufacturers have decided these days that the only way to grow as companies is to devise products that may or not answer an existing question. often though a look "outside the box" and experience will make it possible to use a combination of tools. however it is important to remember that many people want the item they are making to be finished very quickly so they cannot adapt technologies they do not know or understand.

it is interesting that as more and more machine tools become available, more and more amatuers return to hand tool usage since it distances them from their day to day life. maybe you will have restarted the oilstone movement. however don't complain if some of us think you have gone too far backward in your attempts to use tools and equipment which fit the items you are restoring. :twisted: 

as for global warming, well that is the perfect answer to how to intimidate people with hearsay and guesswork, and absolutely no facts that we are the only reason for it happening. but that is for another place i guess.

thanks for opening the debate again jacob, and forgive those of us who think you are ignoring the fact that your experience gives you a better feeling about handling your tools whilst thinking that the novice needs help, for instance a guide.

paul :wink:


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## Colin C (12 Nov 2006)

I think a point is being miss here :roll: 

I for one have tried hand sharpening and was not happy with the out come most of the time ( I do this for a living ).

If you can get it done by hand then great but some will have problems with it and not know what is going wrong, like a friend of mine ( just finished his carpentry and joinery course), but could not get a good edge on his chisels.

He had asked his teacher but after looking at them and seeing that the grinding on the back of them was like the grinding on the table on my bandsaw :shock: .

I told him to get the backs flat so that he could get a good edge and after this he could, also you have said your self Mr G that you have found it much easier to do with your new way.

How long have you been sharpening you tools?
I understand your point but there is a place for both and a jig can also be quick :roll: :wink: .

If you know what you are trying to get to then all we are doing is splitting hairs on this when it comes to how quick it can be done IMO.

There is one thing I would like to add, if you you using timbers like palm ( very hard and brittle ),Tulipwood ( not the builders type ) and satinwood you need very sharp tools to work without the breakout, so the sharper they are the better, plus the edge does last longer.

This is where all of the polishing come in to it  

Regards Colin


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## Anonymous (12 Nov 2006)

imagine if someone invented a "chord jig" to make guitar chord patterns easy :roll: order now to avoid disapointment :lol: :lol: They'd sell a fair amount I reckon, but with guitar playing it comes down to teaching your fingers to do the work and muscle memory to get them to do it consistently, theres no short cut (apart from open tunings) . As with the sharpening jigs, they become popular as a short cut as has been said to assist folks who havent had an aprentice training and endured a tradesman "mentor" calling them a "stupit daft wee bastit" or whatever it was, and if your happy with that fine I'm not sneering down my nose. If I thought a honing guide would of helped me I'd use oneThis whole "debate" seems a bit pointless, hair splitting as colin said. going back to the guitar analogy its like someone saying _my_ barre chord in open E is better than _your_ E chord in standard tuning; differnet ways to get the same final result, is it worth chowing over any more????
Mind you it has to be said I was sent an axminster catalogue (I never asked for one it just arrived with the steel bench screw for my vice) Its packed with lots of gimmicks and shiny toys, I could easily get an out of control spending habit which is I supose what the woodwork industry gadget people want me to have, but I wont because I prefer to make stuff myself _when I can_. And buy it if I cant (thats why I bought the bench screw as I couldnt do the thread cutting) EG the tapered reamer on John Alexandres site; the clico one is POOR it is flimsy and wont take hard pumishment. The simple wooden one totally outperforms the clico one, easier to use, faster, cleaner hole and finish, and a fraction of the price, and only took me about an hour to make.


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## Sgian Dubh (12 Nov 2006)

MikeW":2i05qili said:


> They are OBM chisels.



I know it's dumb Mike because I've been seeing this acronym in all sorts of forums for perhaps several years, but I've never been able to work out what OBM stands for. Anyone care to enlighten me?

As to all this debate about how to sharpen I'll refer everyone back to a comment I made back in page three (I think) in this thread--- sharp is sharp. It doesn't matter how you get there, just so long as it's quick.

Well that's just my opinion. I learnt how to do this sharpening thing freehand a long time a go. I don't get too excited about the exact angles. If you looked at my tools it's obvious that some have somewhat convex bevels. Others have a concave one, and a selection are flat, and another few have two or three bevel angles on them.

As far as I'm concerned all those different forms of primary bevels are acceptable. They would be. I use the tools like that. What matters is the pointy bit at the end, and how flat the back side of the blade is.

Personally I have a great dislike for all the guides out there that I've ever come across and used, and I've tried a lot of them. They are restrictive forcing me to do what the guide wants to do. Not only that many of them I find aren't very good anyway, or at least that's how they seem to me.

The reason I've come across so many of these guides is because each year I teach fresh hordes of students how to tune their tools and sharpen the blades or irons. I show them the freehand style I use and get them to have a go. Many struggle to get it right, and I'm not going to spend a whole afternoon standing over a single student as they 'learn from the master' so to speak. That's how I was taught which led to the slightly embroidered tale *A lesson in Sharpening *I posted earlier. 

I suggest to students they consider buying or acquiring a honing guide to help them if they can't get the hang of sharpening freehand. There's no point in being completely put off their chosen career because they can't get the knack of sharpening freehand. 

Of course, once they get the jig many can't get good results because they can't work out how to use them properly. That's where I come in and have to work out what they're doing wrong and correct their errors. And that's where I've developed a dislike of honing guides too. Too restrictive and you're stuck on the jig's narrowly defined path which isn't for me. I like to change things when I think there's a benefit and jigs and guides won't let me do that easily.

In the end I still go back to that old mantra. Sharp is sharp. Just be quick about it if working wood is a means of making a living. Slainte.


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## Roger (12 Nov 2006)

*O*val *B*olstered *M*ortice Chisels

You've got my vote as well .....


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## Anonymous (12 Nov 2006)

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## woodbloke (12 Nov 2006)

Paul Chapman wrote:


> And I bet Chippendale had never even heard of the Rutlands catalogue



Just to add to the general fray of this discussion, I too am inclined to agree that the _vast_ majority of stuff in catalogues, though droolworhty, is simply _not needed_ and is there to generate an income for the tool manufacture's and retailers. I generally decide on what new kit may be needed at the start of each job (usually a router cutter or two) and proceed from there. I have mentioned it before, but you only need to see what Alan Peter's uses (in his book) for hand tools (provided a respectable range of power kit is available) to realize that, as has been said by others, 90% of what's in a catalogue can be kicked into touch. 
As an additional thought, tho' it is generally recognized that the 'Golden Age' of furniture making was the period from around 1795-1820, where much stuff produced then has never been bettered, equalled maybe, but I suspect not bettered. Craftsmen then were 'time served' it is true, with almost everything being produced by a 'hand process' including the sharpening of all edge tools, certainly the multitude of jigs were not available then. I am not a 'Luddite' and embrace all modern methods, within reason, and not withstanding 'the slope', but I do feel that once a valid method has been found by the individual that _works_ for him or her (and we all do things differently) then that's entirely justified. Just my thoughts on this one...heading back to the 'shop - Rob


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## Sgian Dubh (12 Nov 2006)

Ploget":g44dg2fe said:


> *O*val *B*olstered *M*ortice Chisels



Ta. A wee mystery solved. Slainte.


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## Anonymous (12 Nov 2006)

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## MikeW (12 Nov 2006)

Hah...glad the mystery was solved before I got back here, Richard!

Mercy. I fear I may have been misunderstood--or my own lack of understanding misapplied...Or perhaps the person using my post is misunderstood. So many potentials for misunderstanding.

Which is perhaps one reason why sharpening threads can grow into so many posts.

Richard said it, I said it, others said it. Sharp is sharp and how one gets there is pretty much immaterial unless they recognize a problem and seek advice.

What I liken this thread to is a researcher advancing a paper on Theory X. Often times in so called professional review, Theory X will be ripped apart by the researcher's contemporaries. Now, many of those contemporaries will have had a copy of the paper prior to formal presentation. These contemporaries have the opportunity to test, or prove, Theory X. Many/most do not, instead stopping at "testing" it against previously proven theory to evaluate the claims presented. I'll leave the flawed analogy here.

Jacob's experience is just that. It's his experience. He is placed into a position of defending it. That is often a loosing proposition. Why? Because most often it is not tested by people who are critical [not necessarily a bad thing meant there]. I tried Jacob's method. It works. I guess I have always used it on oval bolstered mortise chisels. At least for as long as my spotty memory goes back. I tried it on a firmer. It worked fine for it. But so do other methods. Seems to me that unless the method is tried, one doesn't really know if it works or not. The hard part is setting aside preconceived notions.

Or not. Because it really doesn't matter what method one uses to arrive at sharp. The whole excercise of sharpening is to be able to do one's work.

OK. Back to hiding and answering long overdue emails.

Take care, Mike


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## dchenard (12 Nov 2006)

Can anyone here calculate square roots by hand? I can, but I don't know of anyone else in my entourage who are able to. Does it matter? I don't think so, since a calculator can do it faster than me. Slide rules are cute (I own a couple), but a calculator or a PC will give you more precise results. In this case you get more, faster, and I would call that progress.

Dovetail jigs: are they better than going at it by hand? In this crowd few would agree with that. Becoming proficient at doing DTs by hand is kind of a "rite of passage" that shows the ability of the maker. Besides, by the time a jig is set up a good craftsman/woman can whip out a dovetailed drawer as fast or faster than a jig. DT jigs do gain the edge in speed and consistency when the number of joints to be cut becomes large, but the downside is the limitations that a jig imposes on the maker (spacing, pin size, stock size). Unfortunately, a majority of customers don't care for the difference between hand-cut and jigged DTs... In the end, we don't get more (quality), but we can get it faster. Is this progress? I don't think so, because the potential gain in speed occurs at the expense of quality and beauty. 

Now to the sharpening jigs. Same question applies. Can we get more, faster? We sure can get more consistent results, but certainly not faster. David C's example earlier in this thread took 1:21 for a chisel (and I'll bet he didn't take the slowest example that he had available...). If the position is that we can get a sharper edge when using a jig, then I would say "demonstrate it". To my knowledge that hasn't been done. 

It's true that for someone who has never sharpened a tool in his life a jig will give better results. But it is not hard to learn to sharpen freehand, a lot less than sawing IMHO. If I did all the stock sizing by hand like they did a couple centuries ago, I'd probably get better results when cutting tenons and DTs. For the most part though, machines do a faster and more precise job than doing it by hand.

So, are honing jigs progress? Methinks not, as the alternative is quick to learn and provides excellent results very quickly. I learned to hone freehand in March of this year, and with very little shop time since (young children will do that to you :roll: ) I get quite good results, not too many hair left on my left hand...

I remember my "jig days", where I'd wait until most of my chisels and plane blades became dull, then take one evening to hone everything. Now, when a tool gets dull, I move to the stones nearby, a few swipes and I'm back in business...

DC


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## Paul Kierstead (12 Nov 2006)

dchenard":aa2ndkfx said:


> So, are honing jigs progress?



If a person is happier and more content to use a jig, then it is better for them, period. Whether or not it is slower for them is irrelevant if that is what they like to use. Now for you, clearly jigs were a deterrent; for others, they are an attraction. 

This is not aimed at you, specifically, Denis: To suggest that someone's methods are inferior when they get good results with them and are happy with it is actually kind of insulting. Now I don't think any of you intend to be insulting and also don't realize it is insulting, but it is. When you tell someone their practices are slow and you "moved beyond that", you are insulting them and their methods. I think this is why these discussions tend to get heated. Even if it could be 100% proved that using a jig is slower then not, and that the time invested in free-hand honing is paid back after 5 honings (I am making stuff up here), it still wouldn't prove that it is better, because not everyones goal is the fastest possible. Maybe they are happier with using a jig; maybe they are happier with rock-consistent bevels. Who are we to say what their goals are? I think there is a need to understand that not everyones goals are identical, and not everyone's desires are identical.

I often cross cut wood with a handsaw just because I want to and enjoy it. Does someone wish to tell me my methods are inferior because they are slow and require more effort?


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## Roger (12 Nov 2006)

Hasn't his run its course?


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## Anonymous (12 Nov 2006)

Paul, your methods are inferior because they are slow and require more effort. :lol: :lol:


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## Alf (12 Nov 2006)

Looking back through this thread I see I've cunningly largely side-stepped taking it seriously, and despite my best efforts to haul it off topic before it became the next locked thread many learned minds have bent themselves to the thread.

Or rather not the thread but instead the debate 'twixt honing guide and non-honing guide.

Alas, the subject often descends into one being "better" than the other. Learned minds from both sides of The Pond have opinioned "Sharp is Sharp" and ultimately that's the bottom line. If you get a better result standing on one leg with a handkerchief in your mouth and singing the first verse of The Hedgehog Song then go to it, my friend. Just a word of advice - don't set up a workshop web cam... Equally, if you find a brief to and fro on the stone threshold of your workshop is all that's required, more power to your elbow. If you like a honing guide, there is no stigma. If you freehand, you are not first among equals.

But equally, if you use a honing guide you don't necessarily have sharper edges, and freehand can sometimes make a godawful mess of a tool. Rejoice in your differences, but don't fall into the trap of believing one is in any way superior to the other. Woodworkers are all different, their methods often differ, thus results differ. Let's not put off the honing guide-user from having the courage to at least try freehand honing, any more than we should make folks feel anything less than honing freehand is somehow "cheating".

Here endeth the lesson. And for pity's sakes can we avoid having two locked threads in a row on here, chaps...? [-o< Let's give the dado fiends a chance on General Woodworking first, eh? :wink:

Cheers, Alf

Owner of three honing guides, too many stones to mention and habitual freehander. Can you say "foot in both camps"?


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## Paul Kierstead (12 Nov 2006)

senior":2v3ps4zs said:


> Paul, your methods are inferior because they are slow and require more effort. :lol: :lol:



Aha! I knew it!  

Just to clarify, I am a wildly opinionated and believe in strongly expressing ones opinion, but at least try to be careful to put it in my own context and try to understand that my context may be different then others. And no, I am not a moral relativist


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## Anonymous (12 Nov 2006)

Alf":3gvazvqh said:


> If you get a better result standing on one leg with a handkerchief in your mouth and singing the first verse of The Hedgehog Song then go to it, my friend.



eeerm, has someone been peeping into my workshop. :lol:


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## MikeW (12 Nov 2006)

Alf":2jrhvlxv said:


> ...If you get a better result standing on one leg with a handkerchief in your mouth and singing the first verse of The Hedgehog Song then go to it, my friend...


Can someone elucidate this wrong-side-of-the-pond person what exactly is the Hedgehog song? :lol: 

Might be a technique I could harken to...

Take care, Mike
A Sharpening Relativist


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## MikeW (12 Nov 2006)

Ah, perhaps a Discworld reference...

That's quite a song. But I don't think I would want to have anything sharp around whilst... :shock: :lol: 

Take care, Mike
A Sharpening Relativist


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## Roger (12 Nov 2006)

Hedgehogs Rule

..... and don't ask what a Hedgehog is !


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## MikeW (12 Nov 2006)

Hah, well that's about the umpteenth, but all varients, version I have seen.

Take care, Mike
Still a Sharpening Relativist


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## dchenard (12 Nov 2006)

Paul Kierstead":17hrrirv said:


> dchenard":17hrrirv said:
> 
> 
> > So, are honing jigs progress?
> ...



OK, my last intervention here...

I understand Paul that your comments weren't directed at me personally, and I agree that there can be ways of conveying a message that are more insulting than others. This said, and this is the message that I've been trying to convey with great difficulty here, is that woodworking is in good part a matter of training one's hands, whether it be machine or hand tool operations. Using a jig runs contrary to that goal, in the sense that the user is shielded by the jig from taking the initiative of trying other methods that ultimately may very well help develop better skills. Freehand honing helps to develop hand-eye coordination, which is very likely to help the craftsman in his/her other hand tools proficiency.

One example that parallels the honing jig issue... A well known manufacturer/retailer (which I admire quite a bit) has come up with a jig system for cutting hand-cut dovetails. For a person starting out, this is a very tempting system, because it removes many of the potential errors of cutting DTs by hand. The angles are set into the jig, a magnet holds the saw in place while cutting, and the jig clamps to the work piece to eliminate shifting. No chances of crooked cuts. I'll bet that this system produces nice, clean, gap-free DTs more easily than doing them by hand. The price for this is potentially more layout (can't say for sure here), and having to carefully line up and clamp the jig for every cut, which slows things down quite a bit. But since the person gets satisfactory results with the jig, he/she might decide that it's not worth it to invest in learning to control a dovetail saw. So in effect the jig removes the desire to better one's hand skills, and that's what's been bugging me...

Hoping no one felt insulted by the above,

DC


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## Lord Nibbo (12 Nov 2006)

Someone mentioned Hedgehogs, Hmmm loverly with Marmite. :lol: :wink:


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## Colin C (12 Nov 2006)

Lord Nibbo":2ezs1weu said:


> Someone mentioned Hedgehogs, Hmmm loverly with Marmite. :lol: :wink:



Some one get his coat :roll: :wink:


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## dchenard (12 Nov 2006)

Colin C":2jfgkem2 said:


> Lord Nibbo":2jfgkem2 said:
> 
> 
> > Someone mentioned Hedgehogs, Hmmm loverly with Marmite. :lol: :wink:
> ...



Cultural ignorance question, what the heck is Marmite? In French marmite is a large cooking pot...

DC


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## PowerTool (12 Nov 2006)

dchenard":89ycnw4t said:


> Cultural ignorance question, what the heck is Marmite? In French marmite is a large cooking pot...
> 
> DC



This

Andrew


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## Anonymous (12 Nov 2006)

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## engineer one (13 Nov 2006)

well, mike w how can we answer about hedgehog songs. :? 

i guess you have to think back to some older english tv programmes
to start thinking about our morris dancers( wonder who morris was?)
and then add in monty python,and you kind of get the idea i think :lol: 

hedghogs are smaller porcupines who don't shoot their spines at you :twisted: but not sure if they are of the same family :lol: 


as for hedgehog recipes, well they are supposed to be really nice when
roasted covered in mud, or is that another urban myth.

and marmite, well since so much french food is fast food these days, maybe you will discover a liking for our beef extract type spread and drink :twisted: :roll: plus of course we have bovril too :lol: :lol: 

and rather like sharpening each to his own taste, as long as it is not groundhog day :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## garywayne (13 Nov 2006)

Paul.

Re hedgehog cooking:-

Wrap in clay, place on fire, when clay is cooked so is said hedgehog, peel off clay, (spines come off with it), eat. It tastes good.


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## dedee (13 Nov 2006)

The comment about the DT guide has prompted me to respond.

I have one of those guides I used it and the results were very good. It gave me confidence in what was to me a black art. Now I know more of what the joint looks like, how it fits together, where the tolerances can be hidden etc I feel more inclined (and have done) to cut DTs without the aid of a jig.

I guess I could have learnt and discovered these things with some woodworking tuition but time and costs have not permitted.

I do woodwork for pleasure and it matters not a jot to the people who have appreciated my work thus far if the joints were made with or without a jig. The fact that they were made by hand at all impresses them. 

For my own satisfaction and pleasure I will continue to cut them without the jig but I will never regret buying & I am happy to recommend it to others as a starting point.

Sharpening though is another matter  . I must confess that I have never even tried to hone freehand - one day perhaps.

Andy


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## David C (13 Nov 2006)

It seems to me that some of the highly skilled freehand sharpeners are much ruder about the methods of us poor old crutch using cripples than vice versa?

Oi veh!

I wonder who gets the sharper tools most consistently.

David Charlesworth

If sharpening was easy for everyone there would not be so much discussion about it.


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3b8hqfet said:


> All I can say is have a go, but with an open mind. Sorry, repeating myself, but the key things are 1. not lift the chisel above 30deg



If you have enough accuracy to do this, you could easily do perfect (small) secondary bevel.

If (OTOH) the occasional stroke is at 31, or even (gasp) 32, your terminal bevel (as suggested elsewhere) will slowly creep upwards.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (13 Nov 2006)

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## mudman (13 Nov 2006)

Well I for one am going to give The Grimsdale Method a try, it sounds like a valid and very efficient method of sharpening.
I do think that it will be difficult to return to the correct angle on each forward stroke but that should come with practice.


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":128kdsp5 said:


> It'll only creep upwards if you let it. You aim at 30 but build in a tendency to undershoot - by dipping the handle a bit. 30/31/32 doesn't matter exactly - infact more or less may be appropriate for particular chisel and nature of work.



But the problem is that the occasional too steep strokes are self perpetuating, and hence cumulative.

This is why all the old and wise books refer to the bevel gradually becoming rounded and too "blunt" (as they term it); we'd say "steep".

BugBear


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## Anonymous (13 Nov 2006)

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## MikeW (13 Nov 2006)

I think there are two philosophies at work here. Precision of angle as a goal and, well, imprecision is fine.

In seeming direct contradiction to the thread on precision, and as a person who generally hand hones, I don't strive for repeated precision in edge shaping. So I fall into the imprecision camp. I do strive for sharp--whatever that means to me.

If one subscribes to non-single bevel at some point the primary bevel needs reshaped. I would contend that what that shape/angle is isn't important. Just lower. Rounded or flat? What does it matter?

What Jacob has done is define a way that has a secondary, if you will, which is *mostly* at the desired angle he is shooting for--which to someone who hand hones knows, is close but not exact and doesn't over concern themselves with--and the remainder is simply lower albeit the shape is rounded.

Again, this is what I do to OBM chisels and rarely do I need to regrind, which is what one *has* to do if they subcribe to multiple bevel theory even using a guided system. There are ways around regrinding the primary bevels, but those are fussy and time consuming even with a guide. So most people I know who subscribe to multiple bevels at some point when the secondary bevel grows to encompass a larger portion of the bevel face, regrind.

Where I choose to get fussy with primary and secondary bevels is with paring chisels. But that's my choice.

I would contend that the only purists are those who subscribe to flat single bevel sharpening. All else is compromise one direction or the other.

Well, anyway. I thought I was smart enough to stay out of this. Guess I am dumber than I thought.

Take care, Mike


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1ujebz1y said:


> If you have made a few too steep strokes then you will find it's slow to get a wire edge when you hone on a fine stone at 30 max so you go on to the coarse stone at 25max for a bit and back to fine and the same again.



Ah - that's what I said about removing more metal.

BugBear


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## Frank D. (13 Nov 2006)

MikeW":1yjcnvav said:


> Again, this is what I do to OBM chisels and rarely do I need to regrind, which is what one *has* to do if they subcribe to multiple bevel theory even using a guided system. There are ways around regrinding the primary bevels, but those are fussy and time consuming even with a guide. So most people I know who subscribe to multiple bevels at some point when the secondary bevel grows to encompass a larger portion of the bevel face, regrind.



I agree with everything you say Mike, and I can see how Jacob's system works (I also sharpen my OBM chisels like this, although I do take them to the grinder once in a while). 
The point I was trying to make earlier (and I'm sorry jacob if I came off as chastising you...I do know you can take it though :wink and this is addressed to Jacob too, about not gaining anything by doing a rounded bevel is that even if you're not paying attention to geometry, you still have to grind off the steel which enables you to finish off at your final polishing angle (30°). The rounded bevel has to be less than 30°, so what you are in effect doing each time you sharpen is regrinding your main (albeit rounded) bevel on a coarse stone. Regrinding main bevels on a stone by hand is hard work no matter how you do it. That's all I really wanted to say (that and the fact that I think regrinding on a coarse stone with a guide allows one to exert more pressure and also NOT concentrate on geometry, and thus move more quickly on to the next stone). 
Sorry if all this was clear already...in which case I'm just beating a dead horse...


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## bugbear (14 Nov 2006)

Frank D.":24gjm7bn said:


> Regrinding main bevels on a stone by hand is hard work no matter how you do it. That's all I really wanted to say (that and the fact that I think regrinding on a coarse stone with a guide allows one to exert more pressure and also NOT concentrate on geometry, and thus move more quickly on to the next stone).



At the risk of surprising people, I grind my primary (normally 25 degree) bevels by hand on very coarse abrasive (60 grit 'J' backed AlZi).

To achieve speed, I use lots of pressure and work by hand - a jig gets in the way of getting a convenient grip to apply the high pressure I want.

For some blades I use a hand vice as a handle, for convenience, accuracy and comfort:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour.html#hand_vise

There is no contradiction here - I have 5 degrees of "upward" tolerance before damaging the precious secondary bevel, so the inevitable errors from a hand process cause no trouble.

The downward tolerance (i.e. too low a bevel) is pretty much unlimited.

Thus the entire (grinding) process is sufficently tolerant of error that hand process are useful.

BugBear


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## Anonymous (14 Nov 2006)

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## bugbear (15 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1r5djva9 said:


> Now all you need to do is exactly the same but with a finer stone and at a higher angle. There is upwards tolerance here too but you must try hard not to exceed 30deg, and forget about flat bevels. A visual aid like my cheese device might help (see earlier post). The downwards tolerance is similarly unlimited.



No - there is zero upward tolerance, and therefore the process is not a good one to do by hand.

I was talking about removing waste, not sharpening. 

I also use a more extensive sequence with finer grits than you; one "foul" stroke on an earlier grit (e.g. 31 degrees) and all the 30 degree strokes in the world on the finer grits will have no effect on the edge. This is unacceptable.

BugBear

BugBear


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## Anonymous (15 Nov 2006)

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## bugbear (15 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":2ov63ygx said:


> PS another afterthought, Instead of repeatedly telling yourself that freehand sharpening is impossible



To echo Jim Kingshott(*), it's not that I can't sharpen freehand. I am aware of a wide range of techniques for both freehand and jigged sharpening.

But I get better, more consistent edges, and longer tool life using jigs.

That would appear (echoing Sgian Dubh) to be the most important thing. 

Sharp edges.

BugBear

(*) I'm not claiming to be the craftsman he was


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## Sgian Dubh (15 Nov 2006)

Bugbear, you described it about right. I guess I was just saying to, get tools sharp fast-- which matters if your living comes from working wood rather than sharpening tools.

I'd opine, if your job is tool making or tool maintenance, e.g., saw/plane maker or saw doctor, that getting tools sharp fast probably matters too.

I'd also guess that if a person's interest is cutting edge geometry and theory, then perhaps it's more about the process of sharpening than it is about using the sharpened tool. So it could be that the process of sharpening and the time involved in doing the sharpening job right is the end goal, if you see what I mean. 

In other words, the tool doesn't actually have to do anything useful, but it does need to be as sharp as it can possibly be-- just because. Slainte.


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## bugbear (16 Nov 2006)

Sgian Dubh":3u24t09m said:


> I'd also guess that if a person's interest is cutting edge geometry and theory, then perhaps it's more about the process of sharpening than it is about using the sharpened tool. So it could be that the process of sharpening and the time involved in doing the sharpening job right is the end goal, if you see what I mean.
> 
> In other words, the tool doesn't actually have to do anything useful, but it does need to be as sharp as it can possibly be-- just because. Slainte.



(chuckle). I guess you've been reading my posts for a while.

My true interest is indeed in tuning seven shades of you-know-what out of tools.

But I do work wood.

Solely for the joy of using perfectly tuned tools.

Others may have different goals. :twisted: 

BugBear


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## Anonymous (16 Nov 2006)

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## woodbloke (16 Nov 2006)

Jacob wrote:



> Honing jigs look like a good idea but they are the cause of most peoples sharpening problems, not the solution.



Jacob - I understand your adamant dislike of the honing jigs, of whatever type - in a different life...in a galaxy far, far away  I was a woodwork teacher, for my sins, probably one of the last of the breed and I used to sharpen about 80 or so bench firmer chisels (4 to a bench space, 20 spaces in the workshop), and possibly grind those that the kids had dinged, (which happened, as you can imagine fairly frequently) in about an _hour_. This is not counting of course, the bevel edged chisels, smoothing and jack planes, which got done on a different day. There simply wasn't time to mess about with jigs, it all had to be done freehand. Whilst the edges achieved weren't supersonic sharp, they were adequate and would quite cheerfully slice open the odd little hand that got in front of a blade. When I started doing woodie stuff as a hobby I too used to sharpen freehand with varying results, though as soon as I used the Eclipse jig I got very consistent and _much _sharper edges. I now though had much more time to be a little bit more leisurely about it ...'scuse me, just going to fill up the coffee cup. In my view, it _has_ to be each to his own, what works for one don't for another and I think we all need to find the method that works for the individual - Rob


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## Colin C (16 Nov 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3h6r2nen said:


> But there is another issue which worries me; I think that many people, esp beginners, are being seriously mislead about sharpening and being tempted down ever more complicated routes involving ever increasing expenditure. Take a look at the Veritas Mk 2 thread. What a daft Heath-Robinson device that is - and what problems it causes its users (as do all honing jigs). It seems that most sharpening threads are about the same thing - how to make honing jigs work. The endless series of answers offered involve flatter stones, how to flatten stones, plate glass with emery paper, water stones, diamond stones, numbers of bevels and so on. But few point to the obvious answer, which is to throw the stupid thing away.
> Honing jigs _look_ like a good idea but they are the _cause_ of most peoples sharpening problems, not the solution.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



I think the point that is being missed here is that there is a place for both ways as it has been said before :roll:  

I and I am sure people on here see your point but you seem to not see this Jacob, dont get me wrong you do have some very good point.

I used to do my sharpening by hand but now use a diamond stone and a jig.
I did polish my edges but I have found that when I do my edges last longer ( unless I hit a nail or screw :evil: ) and for some of the timbers I use I get a better cut and finish.

For me I will not stop using one and I am get you have found a way that works for you, also a lot of the people on here have no one to teach them so find a way that works for them.

This has gone so far because there has been this idea that there is just one way to do this right :roll: ( not one size or technic (sp) fit all)


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## Colin C (16 Nov 2006)

Rob 
Beat me to it :wink:


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## Alf (16 Nov 2006)

I don't think anyone's missing the point - unless it's willfully. :roll: Someone should call the RSPCA and give this horse a decent burial...


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## Colin C (16 Nov 2006)

Alf":1hf68yud said:


> I don't think anyone's missing the point - unless it's willfully. :roll: Someone should call the RSPCA and give this horse a decent burial...



I could not have out it any better


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## woodbloke (16 Nov 2006)

If I for one read any more about sharpening on this thread, I think I'm rapidly going to loose the will to live....sooo I intend to keep all sharp objects (freehand sharpened or no) away from me so that I can't accidently impale myself thru' the eyeballs - Rob


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## bugbear (16 Nov 2006)

Alf":377jvsg1 said:


> Someone should call the RSPCA and give this horse a decent burial...









Gratuitously stolen emoticon!!

BugBear


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## wachenga (16 Nov 2006)

I for one have found this thread very interesting (ok maybe it is getting a little long in the tooth). It prompted me to go through all the various books I have on woodworking and hand tools, Joyce, Hooper (1908), Hayward, Dunbar, Krenov and others I can't remember off the top of my head. Of course they all advocate methods of grinding by machine and honing by hand, although none describe the grind/hone method that Mr Grimsdale has submitted to the forum. Hooper was quite insistent about keeping the angle and hand steady to avoid rounding the bevel, and thus needing to regrind.

I guess it's all about accuracy and precision, a fundamental aspect of cabinetmaking, well at least that's what I was taught. It made me think about paring a mitre, sure you could do it by hand/eye but you will get a more accurate and repeatable result when you take that extra moment to clamp on a brass/wood mitre guide and use it to help guide your work.

Cheers

Liam

(*Edit to fix spelling)


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## Shadowfax (16 Nov 2006)

> Take a look at the Veritas Mk 2 thread. What a daft Heath-Robinson device that is


I know you are trying to put forward your opinion but that remark really is daft in itself. OK, it's a honing guide but it is certainly neither daft nor Heath Robinson. I don't think Veritas do Heath Robinson!
A great thread, by the way, but loooong!
Cheers.

SF


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## Anonymous (16 Nov 2006)

You must enter a message when posting


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## engineer one (16 Nov 2006)

it is certainly a shame that there is no grave digger emoticon, this has been to australia and back, and it still comes back to the most important thing. 

IF IT WORKS FOR YOU STICK WITH IT AND ENJOY, IF IT DOESN'T
THEN LOOK AT OTHER WAYS AND FIND ONE WHICH SUITS WHAT YOU 
DO AND YOUR ABILITIES. :twisted:  

paul :wink:


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## woodbloke (16 Nov 2006)

Thread RIP, hopefully - Rob :roll: :wink:


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## Frank D. (16 Nov 2006)

Hmmm,
I don't think we've discussed the relative advantages of having a flat bevel on a chisel...
Oh well :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Lord Nibbo (16 Nov 2006)

woodbloke":1ig2eatb said:


> Thread RIP, hopefully - Rob :roll: :wink:



Got to agree with you, I read the thread when it started now it's just plain


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## Anonymous (25 Feb 2007)

I've done a fair bit of woodwork since I kicked off this thread so I have given my sharpening system a good trial, and I thought I'd do a progress report.
Well I have to say it has been a resounding success. It works really well - so much so that I feel that I have never had really sharp tools before. A revelation!
The only new detail is that I have brought into play a fine stone which I have had for years but never found useful - honing on it with a jig was just too slow to be worth it. 
With the rounded bevel system more pressure is possible and the fine stone is very useable. It produces a shiny bevel quite easily - and for smaller chisels is all that is needed for the whole process. I think I have discovered "scary sharp" but in one single, simple process. 
I am writing it up for my website here http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery/sharpening.htm and will be adding further notes. I thought I'd do an abstract of this thread as a question and answer - so any further comments would be welcome (he said cautiously!) - PM perhaps, to avoid lengthening this thread.

cheers
Jacob


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## Anonymous (25 Feb 2007)

Thankyou Mr Grim, I've been having sleepless nights for the last 3 months thinking this thread had been killed prematurely, but you've performed a miracle and brought it back from the dead.


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## Anonymous (25 Feb 2007)

senior":1v6z9ayv said:


> Thankyou Mr Grim, I've been having sleepless nights for the last 3 months thinking this thread had been killed prematurely, but you've performed a miracle and brought it back from the dead.


So you will rest easy tonight then, thats good!
Hmm praps I should have started a progress report and plug for web page as a new thread. I'd advise nobody to read all the way back through it - I know I won't.

cheers
Jacob


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