# Making your own Spindle Moulder cutters WIP



## Teckel (21 Jun 2012)

Here is a wip of me making a set of spindle moulder cutters for skirting and architrave. The skirting is 7" and 6" and the arch is 3".
Made from some HSS bar. The material is MDF. 
Bare with me lads as I'm still getting the hang of this computer thingy. Pics are all over the place


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## Teckel (21 Jun 2012)

Here's a pic of the MDf going through the spindle..thanks for looking..


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## heimlaga (22 Jun 2012)

Well done!

How did you find out the correct shjape for the edge? The cutting angle is not 90 degrees so the cutter will have to fit the moulding at an angle and that changes the edge shape a bit.

I consider making some cutters for the most common moulding profiles in old buildings in my area.


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## Jacob (22 Jun 2012)

heimlaga":1905khuo said:


> Well done!
> 
> How did you find out the correct shjape for the edge? The cutting angle is not 90 degrees so the cutter will have to fit the moulding at an angle and that changes the edge shape a bit.
> 
> I consider making some cutters for the most common moulding profiles in old buildings in my area.


I make the profile at 90º and offer it up to the sample to make sure it fits well. Then back it off with a bevel. Then comes the really clever bit (well I think it is) - I deepen _all the hollows_ a touch so that it makes a good fit when offered up at approximately the right cutting angle. This can be very accurate with no visible difference between the original and a new piece, although technically there will be variations of fractions of a mm. There will be variations in the original sample anyway.
Also it saves a [email protected] fortune and makes a spindle moulder much cheaper to run than a router, and a million times more versatile.


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## Cheshirechappie (22 Jun 2012)

Excellent stuff!

Out of interest, how did you cut the HSS bar - angle grinder? Of even more interest, how did you drill the hole?


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## Teckel (22 Jun 2012)

Cheshirechappie":3y9ohgwf said:


> Excellent stuff!
> 
> Out of interest, how did you cut the HSS bar - angle grinder? Of even more interest, how did you drill the hole?



Yes an angle grinder with a 1mm cutting disc and a bench grinder to shape the cutter. 
As regards the hole I knew I was going to be asked this one. I'll tell ye after a few guesses.


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## Wildman (22 Jun 2012)

I have a box of around 100 pairs of moulding blades that I am thinking of selling, must get them out and see what is there. might swap for a woodrat


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## adidat (22 Jun 2012)

is this really safe? 

suggesting to amateurs that grinding your own blades is a good idea. you have left out any information of chip limiters and balancing blocks.

not having a go at the OP who has gone to the trouble of documenting and posting his work.

adidat


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## Cheshirechappie (22 Jun 2012)

Teckel":txk95n1k said:


> Cheshirechappie":txk95n1k said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent stuff!
> ...



OK - I'll have a guess at diamond core drill (Eternal Tools or similar) used in a drill-press with plenty of water for coolant.


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## custard (22 Jun 2012)

adidat":3n3emv6w said:


> is this really safe?
> 
> suggesting to amateurs that grinding your own blades is a good idea. you have left out any information of chip limiters and balancing blocks.
> 
> ...



I did this once when I needed a profile urgently. I worked on the assumption that only one knife ever cuts so the other is really there as a balancer. I weighed them both on a 0.25g scale and tinkered around until they were the same weight.

I still nearly mired my trousers with dread when I switched the spindle moulder on, and even though everything progressed to plan I've never repeated the exercise.

It's worth pointing out that the OP's photos show he used a power feeder, otherwise your point about chip limiters would be absolutely valid and worth repeating and emphasising.


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## tomatwark (22 Jun 2012)

I would be very careful doing this.

A lot of the old style whitehill blocks that are on ebay have worn blade clamps and rounded nuts and will not hold the blade properly, a modern block will either have pins or will be serated which means the cutters are held better.

The OP is using a big old spindle moulder which is nice and solid, if you try this in a small modern machine it will walk across the floor unless the cutters are balanced.

I was trained to use the old style blocks when I did my machining qualifications, I have never lost a cutter, but have seen other people lose them, a cutter embedded 3" into a block wall is impressive.

The old type blocks are illegal in industry and have been for quite a few years, I don't use the old type blocks now as I run a business.

Unless you are very sure about what you are doing I would not do this and either buy profiles that are ready ground or pay someone to make them up for a modern type block.

Tom


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## JonnyD (22 Jun 2012)

custard":39blde70 said:


> It's worth pointing out that the OP's photos show he used a power feeder, otherwise your point about chip limiters would be absolutely valid and worth repeating and emphasising.



Its probably also worth pointing out that using an unlimited block in a spindle moulder even with a powerfeed is illegal according to the hse. The non limited blocks are really only supposed to be used in planer moulders with security locked guards. 

cheers

Jon


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## marcros (22 Jun 2012)

JonnyD":2c2b57gg said:


> custard":2c2b57gg said:
> 
> 
> > It's worth pointing out that the OP's photos show he used a power feeder, otherwise your point about chip limiters would be absolutely valid and worth repeating and emphasising.
> ...



in the UK. OP is from Ireland where it may or maynot be different.


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## Teckel (22 Jun 2012)

marcros":nx5zw7e7 said:


> JonnyD":nx5zw7e7 said:
> 
> 
> > custard":nx5zw7e7 said:
> ...


"And a great country it is....if we could only roof it"


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## Teckel (22 Jun 2012)

adidat":15clmr7c said:


> is this really safe?
> 
> suggesting to amateurs that grinding your own blades is a good idea. you have left out any information of chip limiters and balancing blocks.
> 
> ...


Adidat..I am not advising or recommending anything to anyone. I would not advise any novice to attempt this type of practice. I am not blowing my own trumpet here but I am very experienced with spindle moulders. I've never used any off the shelf cutters as the mouldings that I used were from old buildings and had to be copied. 
I have never lost any cutters in my time and thank god no one was hurt when using the spindle. 
Yes a couple of cutters have come loose but the sound of the machine changes when this happens and this can be rectified before any harm or damage occurs. 
I am sorry if I have upset anyone here. 
If the mods wish to take it down by all means.


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## Bradshaw Joinery (22 Jun 2012)

i also used to use alot of whitehill moulding cutters. However, now building a collection of euro cutters, and if there is a job needs cutters i will get a set made and price it in. the same as anywhere else that would price for the job would have to do..... so why not? 

both cutters cut if they are aligned equally.... if there not/only using one cutter you will have to reduce feed speed. and if your using whitehill cutters, youll probably be on a low spindle rpm anyway, so further feed rate reduction needed......

I did used to enjoy some of the mouldings, 100m of 14" wide moulded coving, took a whole day to run all the different profiles through/fettle the cutters


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## JonnyD (23 Jun 2012)

marcros":1ytw3tdk said:


> JonnyD":1ytw3tdk said:
> 
> 
> > custard":1ytw3tdk said:
> ...



I did know that i can read but as the majority of contributers and readers here are from the uk the point is very valid.

cheers

Jon


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2012)

Teckel":2f0dwikk said:


> adidat":2f0dwikk said:
> 
> 
> > is this really safe?
> ...


I'd echo that, except I don't think the mods should take it down. There is an interesting issue here - how to DIY your cutters, with all the amazing advantages that that brings, but safely.
When I started I had one cutter loose - forgot to tighten it. It snapped and flew out but ended up in bits behind the protection. Would have happened just the same with a 100% safety cutter. DIY had nothing to do with it.
You can run them unbalanced with just one cutter engaging - it was normal practice and perfectly safe in a heavy block. If too unbalanced the machine would let you know by the sound and eventually a bearing would fail. It's not a safety issue but you can damage the machine.
NB the old Whitehill block with no limiters, holes, serrations was much much safer than the earlier patterns (french cutters, square blocks etc) and was called the "safety" block. Still is safe if in good condition in careful hands - with a power feed.


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## tomatwark (23 Jun 2012)

I have agree with Jacob that this post should be left as it is highlighting the dangers of doing this if you don't know what you are doing.

As Teckel said the note of the machine sounds wrong if you have a lose cutter and one of the things we were taught when I did my machining training was to always listen to the sound of the machine you are using, I still do this now as an instinct and always switch if and check if it does not sound right even with safety blocks.

The big problem is that ebay always seem to have lots of the old whitehill blocks for sale, a lot these have probably been kicking around a back of cupboard for years and will be worn in some way, which is when things start to go wrong.

I am not saying people should not grind their own cutters, as it is up to you what you in your home workshop, just be careful and if you are not confident don't.

After all there is this big movement on here for taking all the guards off saw benches and fitting dado heads because Norm does it.

Tom


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## Teckel (23 Jun 2012)

Thinking about it I agree..it should be left up. As it has highlighted the dangers involved in this practice to an inexperienced person. 
I don't think that amateurs would have a need to cut their own cutters anyway as all their needs can be met from off the shelf cutters.


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2012)

Anyway I find a circular saw to be a much more scary machine as it's easier to take for granted and get your fingers too near.
My fingers never go anywhere near a moving spindle cutter or wobble saw.


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## vally bar (23 Jun 2012)

Wobble saw! now your talking.


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## Teckel (23 Jun 2012)

vally bar":1ik3am2j said:


> Wobble saw! now your talking.



:?: :?:


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2012)

One of these




Very safe to use on a spindle except when spinning the teeth are invisible and can give a very deep cut. Push sticks only!


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## Modernist (23 Jun 2012)

Since most people have Euro blocks there is no problem starting off with some plain rectangular knives, complete with pin holes, and grinding whatever you like. No safety issues unless they are well out of balance.


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## Teckel (23 Jun 2012)

Jacob":3qczuxbj said:


> One of these
> 
> 
> 
> Very safe to use on a spindle except when spinning the teeth are invisible and can give a very deep cut. Push sticks only!



I know what they are. I have two. I don't know what he means by his comment


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2012)

People still have in mind the highly deprecated wobble saw of old, which was an ordinary circular saw set off at an angle either by packing the washers with any old wedge -- a bit of card or whatever, or with purpose made eccentric wobble washers. It didn't work as well as the purpose made unit and has a reputation for being dangerous, which it probably would be in a TS but not so bad on a spindle.


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## Against_The_Grain (9 Jun 2022)

heimlaga said:


> How did you find out the correct shjape for the edge? The cutting angle is not 90 degrees so the cutter will have to fit the moulding at an angle and that changes the edge shape a bit.
> 
> I consider making some cutters for the most common moulding profiles in old buildings in my area.



It all depends on the block, but typically the cutting angle is 30 degrees relative to the centre of rotation. If you were to cut a 30 degree piece off a sample moulding and use the end grain profile as a template to scribe onto the cutter blank you will get a near enough replication. If you don't have a sample moulding or you're making one up completely on the fly you'll have to use some form of cutter development, the most common way being to draw out the cutter block (looking from above) and profile in 1:1 scale on a sheet of paper, and develop as in this photo which shows a bevel development, but much more complex profiles can be achieved. 








Jacob said:


> I make the profile at 90º and offer it up to the sample to make sure it fits well. Then back it off with a bevel. Then comes the really clever bit (well I think it is) - I deepen _all the hollows_ a touch so that it makes a good fit when offered up at approximately the right cutting angle. This can be very accurate with no visible difference between the original and a new piece, although technically there will be variations of fractions of a mm. There will be variations in the original sample anyway.



That was known as the "Hit and Miss" method by wood machinists of a bygone era, it works perfectly well if you've got the patience for it!


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## Jacob (9 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> .........
> 
> That was known as the "Hit and Miss" method by wood machinists of a bygone era, it works perfectly well if you've got the patience for it!


It's easy and can give you a perfect shape! Not hit and miss at all. You offer up and adjust until you get a perfect fit
You'd need much more patience to draw it up theoretical text book style and "develop" shapes which in any case you'd still have to offer up and trim to fit your sample.
n.b. your show a square block which nobody should attempt to use - they are the main cause of the fear and loathing of spindle moulding - Whitehill blocks are very much safer, even pre limiter or pre retaining peg etc


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## Against_The_Grain (9 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> It's easy and can give you a perfect shape! Not hit and miss at all. You offer up and adjust until you get a perfect fit
> You'd need much more patience to draw it up text book style and "develop" shapes which in any case you'd stil have to offer up and trim to fit your sample.



The only time you really need to develop is as I said in my original post, when you don't have a sample to hand or you're making a profile up, it's easy enough if you already have the existing profile to hand to reference off.

It was always commonly referred to as the "Hit and Miss" method, even in textbooks you'll see it referred to by this name, which I suppose might've originated from wood machinists or cutter grinders who were very particular about their craft and thought less of people who did it by offering the cutter up to the profile. It takes a great deal of care and skill whichever way you do it.


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## Jacob (9 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> The only time you really need to develop is as I said in my original post, when you don't have a sample to hand or you're making a profile up, it's easy enough if you already have the existing profile to hand to reference off.
> 
> It was always commonly referred to as the "Hit and Miss" method, even in textbooks you'll see it referred to by this name, which I suppose might've originated from wood machinists or cutter grinders who were very particular about their craft and thought less of people who did it by offering the cutter up to the profile. It takes a great deal of care and skill whichever way you do it.


If you haven't a sample available the best way to proceed is to make one up by hand and then use it as a pattern for the very precise so called "hit & miss" method.


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## Against_The_Grain (9 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> If you haven't a sample available the best way to proceed is to make one up by hand and then use it as a pattern.



Each to their own, I personally find profile development much faster, especially with a profile development machine, but I can see the appeal of having a pattern to begin with.


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## Jacob (9 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> Each to their own, I personally find profile development much faster, especially with a profile development machine,


Well presumably it would be - within the tolerances of a profile development machine, whatever that is, but for precision you'd really need a sample to offer up to and verify it. I've seen many examples of machine copies which aren't very precise at all.


Against_The_Grain said:


> but I can see the appeal of having a pattern to begin with.


What do you develop _from_ and how do you apply your drawing to the cutter being worked on?


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## Against_The_Grain (10 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> Well presumably it would be - within the tolerances of a profile development machine, whatever that is, but for precision you'd really need a sample to offer up to and verify it. I've seen many examples of machine copies which aren't very precise at all.



Again, it's all down to the skill of the grinder, even when using a machine that grinds from a template. Profile development machines are quite a simple tool, like the Robinson Pro-Set, all you do is put in a drawing of the exact profile, set up the swing arm, and then mark the profile from the drawing to a template like a piece of formica point by point, it's essentially a game of joining the dots, then you cut the template to the dots and then use that to mark the cutter blank.



https://www.scosarg.com/media/leaflets/Robinson/Robinson%20'pro-set'%20cutter%20profile%20developer%20type%20ZG.pdf





Jacob said:


> What do you develop _from_ and how do you apply your drawing to the cutter being worked on?



You develop from a 1:1 scale drawing of the profile you require, historical moulding catalogues make for good reference, then you develop the profile as shown in the picture in my first post or with the profile developer, you can cut the resultant profile straight from the paper and use that as a template to mark the cutter, but I prefer to tape down a bit of thin card or formica as it's a bit more durable than paper.


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## Jacob (10 Jun 2022)

Looks very complicated!
What I do is spray one side of the cutter with grey metal primer which dries quickly and takes pencil marks. Then draw the profile on, 2H pencil, from sample cross section, or drawing, or freehand etc. Then grind it square. Then back it off at 30º. Then adjust to account for the cutting angle by offering it up to the sample - basically deepening the hollows a touch.


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## deema (10 Jun 2022)

My two penny’s worth. There are for me two types of wood workers, those who earn a living from it and the hobbyist. For the commercial shop, the cost of getting a Set of cutters made is simply costed into the job, it’s cheaper to have a set of cutters made (about £53 in 48 hrs for 55mm cutters and limiters) than it is to make an error running a few meters of stuff to find it’s not the profile you wanted or to find only one cutter cutting / not sharp consistently sharp around the profile etc not producing a good enough surface finish requiring extra work.
For the hobbies, the very limited number of times a standard off the shelf say 40mm Euro cutter isn’t available (say £20 for cutters and limiters, £12 for a new cutter when you have the limiters) it’s worth getting a dedicated cutter and limiters set made Again for £53.

Putting aside the H&S, when standard patterns are easily available and very cheap, the need or desire to grind your cutters is probably marginalised to shall we say ‘traditionalists’. I would never ever advocate anyone trying to make their own profile cutters, however people do, and that is their prerogative.


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## Jacob (10 Jun 2022)

deema said:


> My two penny’s worth. There are for me two types of wood workers, those who earn a living from it and the hobbyist. For the commercial shop, the cost of getting a Set of cutters made is simply costed into the job, it’s cheaper to have a set of cutters made (about £53 in 48 hrs for 55mm cutters and limiters) than it is to make an error running a few meters of stuff to find it’s not the profile you wanted or to find only one cutter cutting / not sharp consistently sharp around the profile etc not producing a good enough surface finish requiring extra work.
> For the hobbies, the very limited number of times a standard off the shelf say 40mm Euro cutter isn’t available (say £20 for cutters and limiters, £12 for a new cutter when you have the limiters) it’s worth getting a dedicated cutter and limiters set made Again for £53.
> 
> Putting aside the H&S, when standard patterns are easily available and very cheap, the need or desire to grind your cutters is probably marginalised to shall we say ‘traditionalists’. I would never ever advocate anyone trying to make their own profile cutters, however people do, and that is their prerogative.


I was doing it commercially (using the cutters that is, not making them) and making my own cutters meant precise copying period detail. Would take only a little longer than time involved in getting someone else to do it, and a lot cheaper.
Also found that the copy machines didn't copy that brilliantly either - a lot of hand and eye needed to get them spot on.
Only one cutter cutting is no prob - that's how you set up a spindle anyway - either a matching pair with one set back a touch, or a non matching counterweight. Precise balance not essential as the difference on a heavy cutter block would be tiny. Too much imbalance would show up very obviously as rumbling bearings!


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## RobinBHM (10 Jun 2022)

deema said:


> My two penny’s worth. There are for me two types of wood workers, those who earn a living from it and the hobbyist. For the commercial shop, the cost of getting a Set of cutters made is simply costed into the job, it’s cheaper to have a set of cutters made (about £53 in 48 hrs for 55mm cutters and limiters) than it is to make an error running a few meters of stuff to find it’s not the profile you wanted or to find only one cutter cutting / not sharp consistently sharp around the profile etc not producing a good enough surface finish requiring extra work.
> For the hobbies, the very limited number of times a standard off the shelf say 40mm Euro cutter isn’t available (say £20 for cutters and limiters, £12 for a new cutter when you have the limiters) it’s worth getting a dedicated cutter and limiters set made Again for £53.
> 
> Putting aside the H&S, when standard patterns are easily available and very cheap, the need or desire to grind your cutters is probably marginalised to shall we say ‘traditionalists’. I would never ever advocate anyone trying to make their own profile cutters, however people do, and that is their prerogative.


the company I use -I email a drawing of the profile, he sends me the cutters in 2 to 3 days

by the way £53 to a set of 55mm cutters with limiters is a very good price! -Whitehill are more than that

its not worth even thinking about grinding cutters


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## deema (10 Jun 2022)

@RobinBHM This is who I use, prices on the WEB site, he also does carbide which are a bit over £100 for a set of cutters and limiters and take a little longer as I doesn’t carry carbide on stock. I understand they are Whitehill blanks he uses for the HSS cutters.








Industrial Wood Turning Tooling Systems


Tools For Wood Turning Lathes, High Quality British Manufactured Copy Lathe Cutters, CNC Wood Turning Lathe, Gouges and Tooling for Automated Wood Turning Machines.



www.profiledesigntooling.com





@Jacob 
The old profile machines are what was star of the art at the time, now a quick 3D scan will capture the profile to a degree of accuracy that cannot be achieved by eye. The ultra modern machines simply take the CAD model and grind the profiles precisely to the drawing. 
If it worked well for you grinding your own, that’s brilliant, it’s a skill and a knowledge that is becoming increasing rare.


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## RobinBHM (10 Jun 2022)

deema said:


> This is who I use, prices on the WEB site, he also does carbide which are a bit over £100 for a set of cutters and limiters and take a little longer as I doesn’t carry carbide on stock. I understand they are Whitehill blanks he uses for the HSS cutters


many thanks for that, I shall keep that in mind next time I need cutters

the blank sizes are certainly Whitehill


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## Jacob (10 Jun 2022)

deema said:


> ......
> If it worked well for you grinding your own, that’s brilliant, it’s a skill and a knowledge that is becoming increasing rare.


It's not that difficult once you get into it. Also sometimes useful to be able to modify an existing cutter.
It's pretty much what the old chaps would have done making moulding plane blades, except it's HSS and uses angle grinders and bench grindstones


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## Inspector (10 Jun 2022)

I recently picked up an older version of this profile grinder. Viel profile copying grinding machine | Elite Tools Put the blade blanks in your preferred cutter head. Mount it in the machine and start grinding the profile of the template you made. Tilt the grinder each side for a little side relief and the cutters are balanced, will cut equally and match the profile.  I suppose it is halfway to hand grinding and ordering in what you need.

Pete


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## Devmeister (11 Jun 2022)

Making your own cutters is an art form in itself. While there are many over the counter options, you need to do a cost performance analysis of why your doing this. My two shapers are vintage Oliver 287 shapers. These do not support metric cutters. So I have had to make spindles for these machines to accept mainly 30 mm cutters. I have also dealt with odd cutter designs that are no longer in production or use.

Matching profiles such as cope and stick cutters require very precise tolerances. Profiles that are decorative and stand alone can tolerrate a bit more slop. So I prefer using euro insert cutters for the precise work. Felder, Garniga, Lietz and others have many options in the insert market.

When you need a few feet of odd ball molding, you often resort to using cutter blocks with corregated knives. Th ese are the most popular when you have knives ground to a special profile. Slip knives are also useful but you need to know what your doing or you may be headed to the ER.

The misconception about corregated knives is that they dont cut on both profiles evenly. No matter how accurate you are, this is a fact of life. So what I always did is to offset one knife by one notch in the head to force one knife to finish cut and the other to tag along and do rough cutting. This also kept the cutter block balanced. While doing this forces you to reduce your feed speed for surface finish, the limited number of feet needed did not present an issue. Running production runs of tonque and groove in high numbers can benifit from a more precise setup and I have since gone to an insert head for this type of job.

Grinding corregated knives is best done on a profile grinder. My last shop used a wynig profile grinder. Smaller more hobby like machines such as the viel profile grinder can certainly help in this regard. Here you grind both knives at the same notch setting to get them as identical as possible.

While carbide inserts have come a long way in the euro insert heads, carbide never had as keen an edge as that found on tool steel stock. Older cutter heads often used brazed carbide knives attached to a steel body. The issue here is that the carbide that can tolerate the brazing temperature could never hold a perfect edge. Inserts use a different grade of carbide which cannot tolerate the brazing temperatures; however, outperform the the edge quality of brazed knives. Certainly carbide can tolerate much longer runs than steel but steel provides a superior edge.

If you only use a shaper or molder for limited use and low volume runs, you may find using steel knives an advantage. Sharpening between runs is easy. I dont really care if the cutter block is a safety design or not. If you set up shapers routinly, you know where those knives are. So using standard, old school corregated blocks is a no brainer. Grinding knives on a grinder such as the viel is easy once you read the manual.


The problem with grinding your own knives is you get spoiled. A few years down the road, you wind up with a entire tool cabinet full of knife sets. Used once twenty years ago and never used since. I often kept one off knives thinking that another profile may pop up in which I can regrind an old obsolete knife set into a new profile. But I still have lots of knives.


One advantage of using hollow and round molding planes is that you can create any profile you want and your not limited to commericial offerings. When you grind shaper cutters, you can do the same thing. Use a commercial profile when its easy and functional, grind a custom profile when you have to. Some of my profiles are for french spindles. French spindles are rare and some consider them dangerous.

The shaper is often the queen of the shop even if you have CNC capabilities. A molder or shaper can run circles around a CNC mill for cutting stick. I will always have a Martin, Robinson, Hoffmann, or oliver shaper parked next to the fancy german CNC router for this reason. Unlike modern managers, I need to the job done and out the door. I have actually ground knives on a profile grinder for use with cutter blocks on the CNC router.

While this diatribe does not answer specific questions, it does offer an insight to this area of woodworking.


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## Spectric (11 Jun 2022)

Grinding cutters is not something you want to do unless you have the tools and skills to do it, for many just drill bits is enough and why larger industries have a dedicated toolroom for the purpose of this task.


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## Devmeister (11 Jun 2022)

Spectric said:


> Grinding cutters is not something you want to do unless you have the tools and skills to do it, for many just drill bits is enough and why larger industries have a dedicated toolroom for the purpose of this task.


My last shop had a dedicated toolroom and we did grind some knives. But the labor costs add up and we often found it cheaper to use a dedicated tool vendor to grind knives. We emailed the .dwg files to CG Schmidt in New Jersey and within 48 hours, Fedex dropped off the knives. When we did grind knives, it was often the result of water poor planing by our management and we had to grind knives on Thursday or Friday, work are tails off on the weekend and hopefully, we were loading the truck on Monday. Truck chasing is no fun and you can imagine the poor language coming out of the machine department when this happened.


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## Jacob (11 Jun 2022)

Devmeister said:


> Making your own cutters is an art form in itself. While there are many over the counter options, you need to do a cost performance analysis of why your doing this. My two shapers are vintage Oliver 287 shapers. These do not support metric cutters. So I have had to make spindles for these machines to accept mainly 30 mm cutters. I have also dealt with odd cutter designs that are no longer in production or use.


Not sure what a _metric_ cutter is - it would make no difference to the old cutter shaping methods. Old 1 1/4" blocks can sit on 30mm spindles with "hi hat" bushes


Devmeister said:


> Matching profiles such as cope and stick cutters require very precise tolerances. Profiles that are decorative and stand alone can tolerrate a bit more slop. So I prefer using euro insert cutters for the precise work. Felder, Garniga, Lietz and others have many options in the insert market.


Cope and stick is modern machine joinery needing two very precise cutters as you say. This is avoided by just using one "stick" cutter, much as you would with hand moulding planes, then joining stile to rail the hand joinery way.


Devmeister said:


> When you need a few feet of odd ball molding, you often resort to using cutter blocks with corregated knives. Th ese are the most popular when you have knives ground to a special profile. Slip knives are also useful but you need to know what your doing or you may be headed to the ER.


Corrugated blocks hold non-corrugated cutters very well and hence can be very versatile - you don't have to have corrugated cutters.


Devmeister said:


> The misconception about corregated knives is that they dont cut on both profiles evenly. No matter how accurate you are, this is a fact of life. So what I always did is to offset one knife by one notch in the head to force one knife to finish cut and the other to tag along and do rough cutting. This also kept the cutter block balanced.


Yep. Usually just an unmatched but balancing (non) cutter. You only need one to cut. Never a problem.


Devmeister said:


> ..........
> 
> .....
> 
> The problem with grinding your own knives is you get spoiled. A few years down the road, you wind up with a entire tool cabinet full of knife sets. Used once twenty years ago and never used since. I often kept one off knives thinking that another profile may pop up in which I can regrind an old obsolete knife set into a new profile. But I still have lots of knives.


Some cutters get reshaped and ever smaller until you end up with what looks like a box full of shrapnel! One advantage of this ever expanding collection is that you can often buy them on Ebay for very little, then throw a lot of them away and just re-use or modify the good ones. Makes a spindle cutter cheaper than a cheap router cutter.



Devmeister said:


> One advantage of using hollow and round molding planes is that you can create any profile you want and your not limited to commericial offerings. When you grind shaper cutters, you can do the same thing. Use a commercial profile when its easy and functional, grind a custom profile when you have to. Some of my profiles are for french spindles. French spindles are rare and some consider them dangerous.


I've got one French cutter but never used it though my first machine (AEG Maxi26 combi) had the slot for a french cutter.
They probably OK if small and no great depth of cut, and notched so the stay in the slot and can't fly out if coming loose.


Devmeister said:


> The shaper is often the queen of the shop even if you have CNC capabilities. A molder or shaper can run circles around a CNC mill for cutting stick. I


Definitely!


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## Devmeister (11 Jun 2022)

How does one mount a 30 mm cutter on a 1.25 inch spindle? T bushes are useful for going the other way. Many of my 30 mm insert heads were used on my old german shaper. Now I have 1.25 inch old world olivers.... TWO OF THEM and they are both cone heads. So I machined new spindles for the Oliver 287. I have 1 in, 1.25 in, 30 mm, 40 mm and 50 mm. All done in 4140 steel.

Another aspect of the Oliver 287 is that it was used in aerospace to machine airplane parts. Here, the shaper was equipped with a ZZ collet spindle to accept metal cutting spiral milling cutters. The one I got out of Boeing was missing this collet. Heck, it was missing everything. So I machined up a ZZ spindle to hold router bits. Later, I machined another one using ER collets as these are easier to find.

Sometimes, its just easier to use a router bit in a shaper. I have a number of pattern maker bits for use in making casting patterns. Some are just straight cutters with either a top bearing or a bottom bearing. Others have draft angle. One way I impart draft onto a pattern. These are not cheap. I use these on either my bridgeport milling machine or the oliver shaper with a collet spindle.

Some of my cutters are simple Freeborn cutters. Here, I used T bushes to take the bore from 1.25 in down to 30 mm when using the 30 mm spindle on my old Hoffmann shaper. Now I just use the 1.25 in spindle on the oliver. I have a 1.25 in spindle to allow me to use some vintage ebay finds.

The only issue I have run into is using shaper cutters with 1/2 or 3/4 bores. The conehead design is hollow to allow for the retention nut and removal nut. So your limited to using a 1 in spindle for safety reasons. While I can rig up a 1/2 in straight spindle and then mount it in a ZZ collet to allow me to use these small cutters, I have not stumbled upon any of these cutters yet.

Jack from jack english machines, of Wadkin Temple Fame, turned me onto french spindles. They are an interesting type of cutter but not for everyone.

My most complex or vexing cutter work is not on a shaper but rather on my tennoner. The oliver used a strange coping cutter based on a square block. Because of the geometry, getting a profile grind correct on these is not easy. Its easier to use more standard blocks but the speed is half that of the shaper so I use custom brazed heads with six knives. Luckily I dont need that many profiles for the oliver 125. For my own use, I prefer the more shaker like profile on my personal doors. This allows you to simply bypass the two coping heads for the most part.

As you may guess, I do like shapers and dont need any more. But should a Robinson wander my way, I am sure I can find a home for such a wayward machine. I do like the Robinson.


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## Devmeister (11 Jun 2022)

Do you need corregated knife stock? No. The wedge system will hold the knife just fine. But I am lazy. The corregated feature allows you to quickly back set one knife from the other knife. Done by eye without the use of a setup jig and indicators. Often I had to setup the molder for S4S, then set up the molder to run ten feet of wacko molding, then switch back to S4S. Corregated knives made this easy. Now, I only use the shaper when its the best solution. Sometimes, its just easier to grab a hand plane or other tool of that ilk and knock off what you need to finish. Its a judgement call as to how much time you spend in setup versus how much time you spend in doing the actual cut.


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## Against_The_Grain (11 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> Corrugated blocks hold non-corrugated cutters very well and hence can be very versatile - you don't have to have corrugated cutters.



Are you out of your mind?! This is such a horrendously dangerous practice and nobody should replicate it! You’re at least halving the surface area that’s clamping the cutter as compared to a regular Whitehill style block.


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## Jacob (11 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> Are you out of your mind?! This is such a horrendously dangerous practice and nobody should replicate it! You’re at least halving the surface area that’s clamping the cutter as compared to a regular Whitehill style block.


Halving the surface area = doubling the pressure. 
With the same torque on the nut the corrugated jaws would give a firmer grip on a flat cutter than flat jaws, due to the corrugations, gripping like teeth. Effectively more friction.


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## Against_The_Grain (11 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> Halving the surface area = doubling the pressure.
> With the same torque on the nut the corrugated jaws would give a firmer grip on a flat cutter than flat jaws, due to the corrugations, gripping like teeth. Effectively more friction.



Completely incorrect superstition, High Speed Steel is much harder than the body of the block and it will not “grip like teeth”, if nothing else you will cause irreversible damage to your corrugated cutter block, causing the corrugations to not interlock with the correct cutters properly anymore.

Absolutely insane.


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## Jacob (11 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> Completely incorrect superstition, High Speed Steel is much harder than the body of the block and it will not “grip like teeth”, if nothing else you will cause irreversible damage to your corrugated cutter block, causing the corrugations to not interlock with the correct cutters properly anymore.
> 
> Absolutely insane.


Sounds like guesswork to me!
HSS is much harder than the flat faced block too.


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## Inspector (11 Jun 2022)

Jacob if your belief on corrugations and smooth surfaces was correct then industry would have adopted it long ago. After all it is cheaper to make smooth heads rather than corrugated ones so they would only have bothered to make the knives with the grooves instead of both. There is a reason all shanks of milling machine cutters are very smooth. Even drill bits would be sold with ridges in them rather than smooth. In fact bits that have become scored from spinning in the chuck get to a point that no mater what you do they spin even in a better chuck. 

Pete


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## Devmeister (11 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> Sounds like guesswork to me!





Against_The_Grain said:


> Completely incorrect superstition, High Speed Steel is much harder than the body of the block and it will not “grip like teeth”, if nothing else you will cause irreversible damage to your corrugated cutter block, causing the corrugations to not interlock with the correct cutters properly anymore.
> 
> Absolutely insane.


Not really. While you may see some flatening of your corregations, they have the clearances of a class 3 thread or worse and have rounded tops like threads. Most modern blocks use a wedge to hold the cutter in place. The corregatons are more for alignment than anything else.

I have actually made corregated blocks using thread mills to cut the grooves. The modern ones are basicly jointer heads with grooves. I do know of some older gib designs that allowed knives to fly out but those have not been used since the 1940s. My 12 in northfield jointer had one such head and it was replaced with a modern head prior to me getting this 1943 jointer.


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## Jacob (11 Jun 2022)

Inspector said:


> Jacob if your belief on corrugations and smooth surfaces was correct then industry would have adopted it long ago. After all it is cheaper to make smooth heads rather than corrugated ones so they would only have bothered to make the knives with the grooves instead of both. There is a reason all shanks of milling machine cutters are very smooth. Even drill bits would be sold with ridges in them rather than smooth. In fact bits that have become scored from spinning in the chuck get to a point that no mater what you do they spin even in a better chuck.
> 
> Pete


It's not a "belief" it's just that I came by a corrugated block and have no corrugated cutters and can't see why I shouldn't use it with plain cutters. Will certainly take notice of any evidence to the contrary!


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## Devmeister (11 Jun 2022)

Inspector said:


> Jacob if your belief on corrugations and smooth surfaces was correct then industry would have adopted it long ago. After all it is cheaper to make smooth heads rather than corrugated ones so they would only have bothered to make the knives with the grooves instead of both. There is a reason all shanks of milling machine cutters are very smooth. Even drill bits would be sold with ridges in them rather than smooth. In fact bits that have become scored from spinning in the chuck get to a point that no mater what you do they spin even in a better chuck.
> 
> Pete


The corregations save a massive amount of time in set up. Setting knives in my tennoer head is a time consuming task requiring the use of set up jig and indicators. Setting up a molder for S4S using corregated heads takes me less than 15 minutes to set and check all FOUR heads. I have used plainer steel to make shaper knives in a pinch with no ill effects.

There are shaper knives that have corregations along the edge and not on the back. These are a totally different animal. Here, the groves or notches are used to lock the knife. Like I said, totally differnt animail.


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## Against_The_Grain (11 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> Sounds like guesswork to me!
> HSS is much harder than the flat faced block too.



Yes, but when a flat cutter is in a flat-faced block with a good amount of surface area there is no way anything can deform unless you lean on the spanner with a scaffold pipe and overtighten it.

Clamping a flat cutter in a corrugated block may work once, twice, or maybe even ten times, but eventually with every tighten of those cutters in various positions will cause small amounts of deformation to the peaks of the corrugations because between each corrugation there is nothing to support it so it will invariably marr. Possibly, it may marr by an amount not even perceptible to the eye, but enough that eventually your clamping surface of corrugation peaks becomes quite inaccurate with sections more deformed than others, which will be a recipe for disaster as the surface area of one of the clamping faces is reduced drastically and the chances of a cutter shooting out are increased drastically.

Just use the right cutters in the right blocks they are intended for, it's not exactly rocket science for ducks sake.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> .......Possibly, it may marr by an amount not even perceptible to the eye, but enough that eventually your clamping surface of corrugation peaks becomes quite inaccurate with sections more deformed than others, .....


You could just as well argue that with more use the corrugations would bed in and be _more_ secure, not less.
I wouldn't argue either way but these various safety block designs are much safer than the square block in your post above (Thursday), as long as they are tightened up and the clamping is in good condition - not splayed open with over tightening as per Trevanion's photo some time ago.
And power feed or two push sticks + Shaw guards etc. every time!


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## MikeJhn (12 Jun 2022)

Devmeister said:


> When we did grind knives, it was often the result of water poor planing by our management and we had to grind knives on Thursday or Friday, work are tails off on the weekend and hopefully, we were loading the truck on Monday. Truck chasing is no fun and you can imagine the poor language coming out of the machine department when this happened.


Isn't it strange that getting a rush last minute order from a customer is always managements fault.


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## Against_The_Grain (12 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> You could just as well argue that with more use the corrugations would bed in and be _more_ secure, not less.



Absolute lunacy, it’s easy to see how the machine has gained such a vicious reputation over the years from being used by Cowboy Joiners that think like this.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> Absolute lunacy, it’s easy to see how the machine has gained such a vicious reputation over the years from being used by Cowboy Joiners that think like this.


It's the square block which gave it a bad reputation, quite rightly, but they are obsolete.
Then it was the intro of spindle moulders to the amateur scene - hence "accidents that frequently involved the loss of several fingers" - completely avoidable with push sticks and guarding, or better still power feed.


https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis18.pdf


Surprisingly the HSE regs talk of "hand feeding" and the need for limiters. Hand feeding should be totally deprecated - the regs are behind the game here and their recommended push stick design is very poor, yet this is a prime safety measure! Things have moved on.
Basic rule: hands should never be nearer than about 10" from the cutter.
PS just had a flip through the regs - there's quite a few odd details in there. Looks like a committee job!


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## Spectric (12 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> Cope and stick is modern machine joinery needing two very precise cutters as you say. This is avoided by just using one "stick" cutter, much as you would with hand moulding planes, then joining stile to rail the hand joinery way.


There is always something new to learn around here and for me it also shows how some skills can be lost because I thought that cope & stick joints on doors was a modern way using matched cutters and that before this they did not use this type of joint but it looks like they did, but had the skills which maybe are not as common these days because we want everything done quicker.


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## deema (12 Jun 2022)

@MikeJhn I love your irony.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2022)

Spectric said:


> There is always something new to learn around here and for me it also shows how some skills can be lost because I thought that cope & stick joints on doors was a modern way using matched cutters and that before this they did not use this type of joint but it looks like they did, but had the skills which maybe are not as common these days because we want everything done quicker.


I don't think they used "cope and stick" except relatively recently. That cross grained "cope" on the ends of rails would be extremely difficult other than by modern machine. I've demolished hundreds of old bits of joinery and never see it except on modern work.
PS unless I've misunderstood completely - "cope and stick" seems to be an American term maybe I've got it wrong


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## Housey210 (12 Jun 2022)

The practice of grinding one's own cutters will continue. Big tool room at the college I learnt my trade, 1980, and although they had a profile grinder many were ground by hand. The use of the old whitehill style blocks will also continue as the demand for the odd metre of matching skirting remains. In the day I had two 8" twin wheel grinders with three wheels shaped / dressed, with diamond point, to suit my needs. I know of one sole trader who stripped his collection of blocks down, trued up in lathe, ground all the faces and jaws and rebalanced. They are still in use today. Single profile cutters need to be balanced and as mentioned a good spindle hand will know by the sound.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2022)

Housey210 said:


> The practice of grinding one's own cutters will continue. Big tool room at the college I learnt my trade, 1980, and although they had a profile grinder many were ground by hand. The use of the old whitehill style blocks will also continue as the demand for the odd metre of matching skirting remains. In the day I had two 8" twin wheel grinders with three wheels shaped / dressed, with diamond point, to suit my needs. I know of one sole trader who stripped his collection of blocks down, trued up in lathe, ground all the faces and jaws and rebalanced. They are still in use today. Single profile cutters need to be balanced and as mentioned a good spindle hand will know by the sound.


I did all mine with a 6" bench grinder. Two 1/2" wheels one square one half round, two 1/4" wheels ditto. Small shop doing period joinery, not much like the big industrial stuff referred to earlier.


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## Spectric (12 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> "cope and stick" seems to be an American term


Yes I believe that to be true, it is strange that here in the UK we were woodworking long before people decided to evict the indians and create America yet they now seem to rule the roost, looking at my woodworking books they do seem to be American in origin but if nothing else they are some of the few things around without some connection to China! I will have to look into how they made doors and such before we had routers, I find the past can teach a lot.


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## Against_The_Grain (12 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> It's the square block which gave it a bad reputation, quite rightly, but they are obsolete.



While the square block by its nature wasn't the safest instrument as compared to the modern pinned limiter block, the absolute key to whether it was a useful tool or a lethal weapon was the machinist at hand. Common practices by Cowboy Joiners include using pipes on spanners to tighten the cutter bolts to holy hell with a potential to either splay open-ended cutters or shear bolts during running, using cutters that have been ground to the point where only a small section of steel by the slot end remained with the potential for the cutter to split in half during running, using cutters that are clearly damaged with bends, cracked steel, or splayed slots, using blocks that are clearly damaged from chip packing and are no longer perfectly flat...

The machine is never the culprit, it is always the one that operates it that causes issues, the HSWA 1974 and PUWER 1998 regulations were introduced solely to prevent Cowboy Joiners from injuring themselves and others.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> While the square block by its nature wasn't the safest instrument as compared to the modern pinned limiter block, the absolute key to whether it was a useful tool or a lethal weapon was the machinist at hand. Common practices by Cowboy Joiners include using pipes on spanners to tighten the cutter bolts to holy hell with a potential to either splay open-ended cutters or shear bolts during running, using cutters that have been ground to the point where only a small section of steel by the slot end remained with the potential for the cutter to split in half during running, using cutters that are clearly damaged with bends, cracked steel, or splayed slots, using blocks that are clearly damaged from chip packing and are no longer perfectly flat...
> 
> The machine is never the culprit, it is always the one that operates it that causes issues, the HSWA 1974 and PUWER 1998 regulations were introduced solely to prevent Cowboy Joiners from injuring themselves and others.


Agree. 
I don't know what the figures say but I'd guess that over and above the mechanically caused accidents cuts to the fingers would be number one and keeping hands always 6 or more inches away would be top safety measure.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2022)

Spectric said:


> Yes I believe that to be true, it is strange that here in the UK we were woodworking long before people decided to evict the indians and create America yet they now seem to rule the roost, looking at my woodworking books they do seem to be American in origin but if nothing else they are some of the few things around without some connection to China! I will have to look into how they made doors and such before we had routers, I find the past can teach a lot.


According to this Door Construction "cope and stick" is that very tacky joint you see on modern cupboard doors, without M&T.
I thought it meant ends of rails machine "coped" to match the mould on the stiles, but still with M&T. Neither being traditional.


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## Against_The_Grain (12 Jun 2022)

Jacob said:


> I thought it meant ends of rails machine "coped" to match the mould on the stiles, but still with M&T.



Cope is simply the American term for what we call a Scribe, "Cope and Stick" in cabinetwork is called "Rail and Stile" here.

On the subject of full scribes, they are a result of machine work but they've been around since the mid to late 1800s, though they don't start getting very popular in Britain until machinery is more widely used as in the 1920s and '30s. Beforehand, the moulded sections of joinery would either be "Part-Scribed" by cutting a mitre on the rail on the moulded section to achieve the shape required much like scribing skirting in a house, and then using chisels and gouges to create a short scribe as deep as the moulding mitre, and the shoulders of the morticed stile would be flat rather than moulded through, the second method of "Mitring" would be to simply mitre the rail and stile but this is an inferior method of construction as with timber movement the mitres will develop a gap, whereas the part scribe conceals timber movement.


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## Jacob (12 Jun 2022)

Against_The_Grain said:


> ...... Beforehand, the moulded sections of joinery would either be "Part-Scribed" by cutting a mitre on the rail on the moulded section to achieve the shape required much like scribing skirting in a house, and then using chisels and gouges to create a short scribe as deep as the moulding mitre, and the shoulders of the morticed stile would be flat rather than moulded through, the second method of "Mitring" would be to simply mitre the rail and stile but this is an inferior method of construction as with timber movement the mitres will develop a gap, whereas the part scribe conceals timber movement.


Exactly. What I was taught and have been doing since I started. Also what I've seen in the hundreds of trad bits of joinery I've pulled apart over the years. A mitre or preferably a mini scribe picked out with an incannel scribing gouge if you happen to have one, or any old small gouge if you haven't


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