# New kitchen project



## sean_in_limerick

Greetings All - i am about to embark on a new kitchen - replacing our existing kitchen that we inherited when we moved in (the quality of which i will not comment on). As i have a full-time job as an engineer and two babies to contend with, this may take a while. I hope to keep this topic going throughout as a forum for my own questions/comments and to serve as a reference for anyone else attempting this in the future. This forum if a great place for me to visit as i don't know anybody in the cabinet-making trade and i have lots of questions! 
First of all a little of myself - i have been woodworking for a good few years and have built numerous cabinets and things for the house here - i have a penchant for hand-tools were practical but i am no luddite. I have never attempted a project as big as this one but i know if i paid someone to do it i would only be griping about it for years to come. I have a small garage which is relatively well equipped - table-saw, band-saw, planer, thicknesser, router-table etc, but lacks space (who doesn't) - plus far too many hand-tools and gadgets to mention. - to the kitchen. 

We have been looking at websites, catalogues and shops locally (limerick, ireland) to get some ideas. I have a few books on kitchen/cabinet construction but these all have an American bias, which is problematic sometimes when it comes to the hardware and materials they use. However i have no problem with the fact that they all have a preference for face-frame construction. I love the look of face-frame construction and will almost certainly go in this direction. I have made rail and style doors before with raised solid wood panels and again, like the look so we will probably go with this. Anything visible (doors, drawers, face-frame, end-panels , mouldings etc) will be made from red-oak, which is available locally and matches much of the rest of the house. 

And now to some questions for all you kitchen gurus... 

Nearly all of the kitchens that i have seen locally use melamine faced chipboard for the 'boxes' 
: Is this a risk due to the high moisture content of kitchens? 
: Is MFC structurally strong enough for the full cabinet 'box' - (if for example i mount a granite work-top on top? 
: Is plywood a better option? 
: Since none of the MFC will be seen from the outside is it ok to just pocket-hole screw everything together 
: I am concerned about chipping of the MFC when i cut it - how do people get around this without investing in a new table-saw with a score-cutting blade? (is the festool saw good enough to justify it's ludicrous price?) 
: What is the conventional way of attaching shelves when using MFC - normally i have used 'haunched' dado's cut with a router - but i imagine dado's will weaken 18mm MFC too much (i have never wished i had made a shelf adjustable) 

Sorry its a bit long and thanks for reading. 

Sean


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## Neil

Hi Sean,

If I remember correctly, John Elliot (who makes kitchens for a living) uses pocket screws for his cabinets, although I think he uses good quality ply rather than MFC. If you go down this route and find a local supplier of birch ply, please let me know!



sean_in_limerick":3bhubgr7 said:


> (is the festool saw good enough to justify it's ludicrous price?)


You are welcome to try mine if you like - I'm just over an hour from Limerick. I think its a complete bargain!

Cheers,
Neil


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## George_N

Sean, I'm in a similar boat to you about to start on a kitchen re-fit. There is quite a lot on this forum and elsewhere about building kitchen cabinets, methods of construction etc. I've got a couple of books by Danny Proulx, a Canadian, on building kitchen cabinets, doors and drawers. He recommends melamine faced chipboard (MFC) which he just butt joints and fastens with chipboard carcass screws. Many people will also say use biscuits and glue or screws and glue. Proulx says screws alone are strong enough and he has run a cabinetmaking business and taught cabinetmaking courses. Melamine also doesn't take glue well. The prototypes I've built using this method certainly seem very strong and stable. This is helped by making the cabinet back full width and of the same thickness board as the sides and base. Cabinets built this way will easily support your worktop, whatever material you choose, because the weight will be spread over a number of units, each with at least 4 legs. As for getting clean edges when cutting MFC have a look at this link, which recommends either using a router to clean up the cut edges or making a first cut with the table saw just deep enough to cut the melamine face and then a second cut at full depth. Both work pretty well with the router giving the best results. Also bear in mind that a lot of your cuts will be hidden at the back of a unit or at the top or bottom, so if you always remember to keep the show side up on the table saw you will be ok. I hope some of this helps.

cheers

George


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## jasonB

Hi Sean

I make a few kitchens as well as fitting quite a lot of ready made ones, *this one*was all from scratch and there are a few more *here*



> Is this a risk due to the high moisture content of kitchens?



Provided you lip all cut edges there should be no problem with moisture, continuous leaks are what cause the chipboard to swell.



> Is MFC structurally strong enough for the full cabinet 'box' - (if for example i mount a granite work-top on top?



Properly constructed a MFC carcase will hold granite without a problem, use a solid back, 8mm will do and make sure the adjustable legs support the carcase sides.



> Is plywood a better option?



Probably a bit stronger but Birch ply will cost twice as much as MFC and you will have to apply a finish



> Since none of the MFC will be seen from the outside is it ok to just pocket-hole screw everything together



I tend to build with biscuits and carcase screws, if using pocket screws a few biscuits or doweld will help keep all the joints aligned.



> I am concerned about chipping of the MFC when i cut it - how do people get around this without investing in a new table-saw with a score-cutting blade? (is the festool saw good enough to justify it's ludicrous price?)



If you use a decent blade in your saw and makesure all the internal edges are face up on the table a few chips won't show on the finished job ie the chips will be on the same face as the pocket screw holes.

:


> What is the conventional way of attaching shelves when using MFC - normally i have used 'haunched' dado's cut with a router - but i imagine dado's will weaken 18mm MFC too much (i have never wished i had made a shelf adjustable)



A dado will weaken the MFC and allow moisture to enter, go for 5mm holes with metal pegs


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## Mcluma

Nice structured answer JasonB


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## Lee Brubaker

George:

Just a update on Danny Proulx who as you mentioned was a widely followed author & cabinet maker here in Canada. Unfortunately last fall while attending a woodshow, Danny suddenly collapsed & died. He participated on the Canadian Woodworking Magazine Forum & we all miss him.

Lee


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## Paul Chapman

Hi Lee,

That's very sad news about Danny. I have one of his books on kitchens and it's very good.

Paul


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## SimonA

I have MFC carcase's with granite worktops and they hold it with no problems.....

I've been looking to get a hold of a couple of Danny Proulx books....my I ask where and how you guys bought yours?

Cheers.

SimonA


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## Paul Chapman

SimonA":nu024jbw said:


> I've been looking to get a hold of a couple of Danny Proulx books....my I ask where and how you guys bought yours?



I think I got mine in Bookends in Guildford. I sometimes have a look in there if I'm passing - they sell off books cheaply (usually half-price or less) and you can often pick up a few bargains - the sort of books that you would like to have but they are just too expensive at the normal price :wink: 

Paul


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## George_N

SimonA":3446kaho said:


> my I ask where and how you guys bought yours?
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> SimonA



Amazon, either new or "pre-owned".

cheers

George


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## George_N

Lee Brubaker":1qpsa9zi said:


> George:
> 
> Just a update on Danny Proulx who as you mentioned was a widely followed author & cabinet maker here in Canada. Unfortunately last fall while attending a woodshow, Danny suddenly collapsed & died. He participated on the Canadian Woodworking Magazine Forum & we all miss him.
> 
> Lee



That is sad news about Danny Proulx. As a novice cabinetmaker I have found his books to be very useful.

George


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## sean_in_limerick

i ordered his book yesterday - sad news indeed


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## engineer one

sean
it is amazing what mfc can bear, have built a number of strange devices
over the years, and they were all tough to break apart.

i have used biscuits and normal chipboard screws, but make sure you
put the iron on on the bottom surfaces too, to stop water wicking up.

i often think it is better to make separate plinths, so you can get that properly flat and level, have enough kick space, and ensure that the mfc
is properly supported. often looks pretty good painted black to make the
cupboards above look a little less ponderous.

as for cutting the mfc i have had good luck with sharp cmt blades in my dewalt, minimum break out.

the way that the trade make them is often of value. 

couple of questions, are your walls straight flat and level, otherwise you need to kind of scribe each back, or overhang the top at the back,
and are you sure about granite. it really is a pain in the ar*e for most
things in the kitchen, you really only need a small area for pastry making
otherwise it presents many problems including chipping, and breakages.

i would make a u shaped box, bottom shelf, two side in mfc, 
then at the top a front rail of mfc, behind it a 4x1 horizontally to support
the top, and a similar piece at the rear, but vertical.
if your services like water and electricity are proud of the wall, you need
a space of up to two inches between the wall and the back to allow access.

i always find it better to sort the kitchen sink unit first, get that working and leak free then move sideways from that. great to get access to the
back of that easily, and later to have clean hands. 

think about access after you have installed the kitchen, can you easily
get to the pipes, cables, waste and plugs. if not re-plan it.

the backs should be about 8m as has been suggested, but you might want to do it in three pieces, with the middle bit screwed in from the front to allow later access.

another reason for making a plinth unit then the cabinet on top is to allow
for ease of making the face frames stay straight and level across the number of units. much easier to level one unit than all of them.


indeed sad news about danny, have you tried gmc for the book,
or stobart davies, who often put inserts in the mags?

paul :wink:


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## Scrit

engineer one":33t2blo9 said:


> I often think it is better to make separate plinths, so you can get that properly flat and level, have enough kick space, and ensure that the MFC is properly supported. often looks pretty good painted black to make the cupboards above look a little less ponderous.



I would suggest not making a plinth at all. Support your carcasses on adjuster feet as they will allow you to even out any variations on the floor (an they almost all vary a bit). They will also allow you to clip on a cover which will allow (limited) access beneath the carcasses in the event of a flood, etc. Make sure that the feet support the underside of the carcasse sides as this will help support the weight of heavy worktops such as granite or concrete.

To add to the earlier comments, if you are putting in granite get the supplier to template and fit it - the stuff weighs a ton and if you drop it........ #-o The granite boys will generally scribe your wall to match their worktop - much easier - and if the templating is wrong, it's their problem!

Services at the back of carcasses need a 50mm space - the largest waste you'll normally see is a 40mm so 50mm space gives you room to manouvre. Normal carcass depth is 570mm, front to rear, with a base carcass height of 720mm (uppers are 575/720 as a rule). Stick to the "standard" widths of 300 / 400 / 450 (dish washers) / 500 / 600/ 800 / 1000mm if you are going to use standard or bought-in wirework, although custom sizes can look a lot better. Hidden exposed edges can be sealed with D3 (exterior grade) PVA glue and the face frame construction will effectively hide any slightly raggy edges with the sole exception of the cabinet backs, although I'd seal an chip out as well to prevent water ingress.

Finally remember that if you are going face frame that almost all European hardware is designed for System 32 (frameless) carcasses and that to accommodate face frames you'll need to "jack-up" hinge plates, drawer runners, etc on packers to get them to work with the face frames. This in turn makes it difficult to install backs which can be removed from the front of the carcass for access to services (one of my pet projects). Personally I'd just buy the boxes in and make the face frames if it weren't for the fact that one of the things I make is MFC carcasses.....

Scrit


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## paulm

We have had granite worktops in our kitchen for a good few years now and they are totally practical, no need to worry about putting hot pans or dishes on them, no water stains and no problem at all with chipping or damage generally. Wouldn't view them as at all fragile or delicate !

Like Scrit says though definately wouldn't try fitting them myself its a job for the pro's !

Cheers, Paul.


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## Scrit

chisel":2p2dgkaj said:


> We have had granite worktops in our kitchen for a good few years now and they are totally practical, no need to worry about putting hot pans or dishes on them, no water stains and no problem at all with chipping or damage generally. Wouldn't view them as at all fragile or delicate !



From experience thare are only two things they don't like - having cast-iron pans dropped on the edges, which DOES chip them and having hot oil/fat spilled on them in quantity (such as an overflowing chip pan) which can leave a permanent oil mark or "shadow". What has always surprised me about granites is that they all appear to be slightly permeable. A proficient installer will seal the granite to considerably reduce the likelhood of this happening.

Scrit


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## jasonB

Granite is about the most bomb proof worktop, any surface will get damaged if you drop a big object onto it.

Most oil can be got out with a paultice type cleaner.

The other thing to watch is citric acid, don't leave a cut lemon on the worktop overnight. And if the lady of the house has a big diamond ring thay can put a scratch into the surface but if she's got that sort of money she can afford to get a man in with his Flex ROS  

Jason


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## Scrit

The oil comment is because I have one customer in particiuar who had me pull-out a section of her solid beech worktop a few years back and replaced it with granite. Her teenagers then proceeded to dump an overflowing chip pan on it a couple of times and the granite guys never have managed to get the mark out, despite at least 3 visits, but I have to say it's a rare occurrence. She's also the one with the chips in the granite edges where Le Creuset pans have been dropped on the edges several times. Maybe it's just them - I've been back a couple of times to sand-out scorch marks in the beech (despite having supplied trivets) and they even broke their Belfast sink last year........ Going back at the end of the summer to take out the granite and re-instate the beech. :roll: 

Jason, have you ever tried polishing out scratched with a Fein? Just wondered if it's worth getting the kit.

Scrit


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## engineer one

have to say my experience with granite is more prosaic,
we used it for grave stones, and later fireplaces, where i guess it
might be easier to chip them, and see weather damage.

but i guess like all things, this depends upon how you use it,
and to an extent what the kids are like in the kitchen :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

but certainly scrit has got it sorted on dimensions etc.

but quite why he makes cabinets that he could buy in???????? :twisted: 

paul :wink:


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## Scrit

engineer one":2gttchk4 said:


> ....but quite why he makes cabinets that he could buy in???????? :twisted:



None-standard sizes, special cabinets (like the side on washing machine "hutch" I'm just doing in veneered chipboard, that sort of thing is difficult to buy-in and get delivered in under 6 weeks...... Standards, however, I generally do buy-in because I can earn more installing them these days than making them. Simple economics. :wink: 

Scrit


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## engineer one

works for me :lol: :lol: :lol: 
paul :wink:


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## Jake

These guys do non-standard sizes - for no extra charge they say (presumably meaning they charge for next standard size up or something).

I don't know how their prices compare generally.


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## engineer one

uh what guys jake, no link  

paul :wink:


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## Scrit

I have a goodly sized "cluster" of carcass manufacturers around Manchester so that's not an issue. Generally, though, non-standard sizes just means non-standard widths. If you need, say, 250mm deep upper cabs, a corner unit to take 400mm doors, 235mm wide upper gallery ends, or a 140mm wide spice drawer unit (all recent requirements) then they can't help. When I say non-standard, I really mean it :wink: 

Scrit


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## jasonB

Scrit":2hsemmrm said:


> Jason, have you ever tried polishing out scratched with a Fein? Just wondered if it's worth getting the kit.
> 
> Scrit



Not tried it with a Fien, would have thought the size of the pad a bit small, did't know they did the pads for them. I've used my Metabo 450 to polish small amounts of Corian when I've done the fit but mostly I get the granite/corian guys to do whats needed.

Jason


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## Jake

engineer one":ixvogpor said:


> uh what guys jake, no link
> 
> paul :wink:



Must be your browser, honest.

These guys...

http://www.frontlinecabinets.co.uk/


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## Jake

Scrit":935n8vbd said:


> I have a goodly sized "cluster" of carcass manufacturers around Manchester so that's not an issue. Generally, though, non-standard sizes just means non-standard widths. If you need, say, 250mm deep upper cabs, a corner unit to take 400mm doors, 235mm wide upper gallery ends, or a 140mm wide spice drawer unit (all recent requirements) then they can't help. When I say non-standard, I really mean it :wink:
> 
> Scrit



It might not interest you, but there could be others who might find it useful.

They'll vary any of the dimensions - the guy laughed at me for asking that question. It's all CNC, so they just type in the dimensions and it comes out the other end.


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## sean_in_limerick

Paul - i can definitely say that my wall will not be straight and true - nothing in my house is - when you say overhang the top - wouldn't this have to be scribed to the wall still? I agree that granite is probably to0 painful (for me) to install. My local granite guys insist on a template of the countertop made from plywood - i don't like this as i think the onus should be on them to do the measuring - then there is the cost - i don't think it's that big a deal, and fortunately - neither does the wife. 

Good advice regarding access for the services - what type of backs do people typically use for the carcases - i was thinking of using 3.2mm white plywood (it's what is available locally)- but people here are suggesting 8mm - is this necessary for strength? 

I see from my american books that they like to fix floor units to the wall by attatching a cleat to the back and screwing directly into the the wall - this isn't really an option for me as i have brick walls - do you guys usually attach the base units to the wall, and if so how do you do it?

What thickness MFC is typically used for carcases? I can get 3/4" in full 8*4 sheets, but for some bizarre reason i can only get the 21", 18" 8ft long MFC in 5/8" - is this thick enough?

What material is typically used for toekicks?

Thanks,

Sean


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## George_N

Scrit":1o53kvcs said:


> Services at the back of carcasses need a 50mm space - the largest waste you'll normally see is a 40mm so 50mm space gives you room to manouvre. Normal carcass depth is 570mm, front to rear, with a base carcass height of 720mm (uppers are 575/720 as a rule).
> 
> Scrit


 
Isn't that going to be too deep? If the carcasses are 570 mm deep with a 50 mm gap at the back for services, even my maths makes that 620 mm. If you add another 20 mm for the door that makes 640 mm. I am intending to make my units 520 mm deep + 50 mm service gap + 20 mm door = 590 mm, which should fit under my 600 mm worktop ok. Unless I'm missing something? 

cheers 

George


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## sean_in_limerick

I am also unsure how the service access works? Could you give a brief description of what is actually required?

Sean


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## engineer one

ok guys. 
standard suggestion. go look in B&Q, not sure if that is practical for you
sean, but all guys in uk see the main cheapskate competition.

years ago i fitted some b&q units in the kitchen of my folks,.
two years ago the council decided to re=do the kitchens
they'd got some new money, and something called
"better homes programme"

replaced the units with new ones which are 10 per cent smaller back to 
front, and the top units do not take normal sized plates #-o 

remember almost all work tops are between 600 and 620 back to front.
and your cabinet needs to be about 20 back from the front edge.

next check out things like any metal trays and so on that you want to 
use, they will give a good guide to the depth.
finally check your waste pipe from the sink, that is the maximum
so in the sink unit, you need the largest distance between the wall and
the back of the unit. after that you can modify.

for long term stability i would use 18mm mfc, and to retain the front 
edge have you checked the economics of using 600 mm boards rather than cutting up 2440 x 1220 and then putting tape on???

most fitters in the uk do not seem to fix at the back, when doing quick build, they kind of rely on the top being fitted onto the wall with silicone.

i feel that a number of battens on a brick wall just under the top do 
offer a number of advantages, and enhance strength, but it might be 
overkill.

as for the top, tell them to take a running jump
they supply and fit top to their measurements and that offers a proper
guarantee.

finally you only need access flaps at certain points, so on the normal 
carcase, again look for strength, and 6 or 8 mm mdf is cheap enough, 
and offers a more stable surface. i am inclined to fit solidly with
air pins or screws, although the store bought ones tend to be 
floating, they just slide in.

where you have access needs, put a couple of battens across the carcase
and fix solidly at top and bottom. in middle screw from inside to cover the gap, put the proper washers on, and make sure you can get to where you 
need, it is a real pain in the a*** having to hack a little bit more 
just to get your hand in.

remember that the washing machine and a dishwasher will always eventually leak, so try to add a bit of space on all three sides to allow you
to get them out, make sure there is enough cable to keep it plugged in, but almost in the middle of the kitchen when being worked on (you wish :lol: ) and i suggest some kind of water proof tray which will catch the drips, and maybe channel them into the nearest drain.

couple more thoughts which are kind of environmental. don't
know whether you can do it, but maybe arrange for your waste water to be collected in a tank outside, and then re-used to flush the loo or
water the garden.. :twisted: :shock: 


finally remember rubber plugs if you can. enough sockets, and 
comfortable height to the top of the worktop. of someone who
will use the kitchen a lot is shorter, make a dropped down section.
and really finally for now, make sure that you lay out the
cupboards and draws properly so you can reach the back of cupboards
properly, and draws do not only half open because something else is in
the way. in my folks kitchen they sent a right hand cupboard not a left
and the wait was six weeks, so a whole corner is wasted.
also think about those pull our larder type cupboards,.although expensive
if you buy the hafele unit it really does work well, so maybe make
a wooden one on full extension slides.

let me know if i can help further
paul :wink:


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## Scrit

Jake":vcf9yrip said:


> ....vary any of the dimensions - the guy laughed at me for asking that question. It's all CNC, so they just type in the dimensions and it comes out the other end.



That all depends on whether or not they have their CNC programs set-up parametrically or not, and even then they normally can't handle extremes or certain specials (I have a point-to-point CNC in my shop so there I'm talking from experience). If buying-in carcasses there is generally a minimum order value of £500 to £750, below which you attract delivery charges or minimum order charges, hence the preference of using someone I can drive to.

Scrit


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## Jake

Sure - I was really using your comments as a hook on which to hang information about those guys - I looked for ages to find anyone who could be anywhere near as flexible as them _and_ who would supply retail. I can't be bothered to build carcasses out of MFC for about the same cost as buying them, and with the additional work involved - and there must be others in the same boat. Not the most satisfying of 'wood'working tasks either.

I wasn't advocating that you personally should use them - and no doubt there are limits to what they can and will do, but those limits are much higher than most suppliers willing to supply retail.

Anyway, I can't actually recommend them as I haven't used them yet.


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## Scrit

sean_in_limerick":16d1mm4k said:


> I can definitely say that my wall will not be straight and true - nothing in my house is - when you say overhang the top - wouldn't this have to be scribed to the wall still? I agree that granite is probably too painful (for me) to install. My local granite guys insist on a template of the countertop made from plywood - I don't like this as I think the onus should be on them to do the measuring - then there is the cost - I don't think it's that big a deal, and fortunately - neither does the wife.


The templating should be down to the granite men. That way if there's a b***s up it's their problem. templating does need to be done after ALL the units are in place, though. Similarly a granite worktop can take four or five big beefy guys to manhandle into place - better their backs than yours...... As I said earlier for granite tops any scribing is normally a case of chiselling away the wall - much easier than modifying the granite.



sean_in_limerick":16d1mm4k said:


> ...what type of backs do people typically use for the carcases


Either 15/18mm solid backs (for corner solutions/carousel units/magic corner units, etc) or 8mm MFC - most sheet merchants can supply this in white one side / magnolia reverse as most of the major board manufacturers such as Kronospan, Finsa and Egger make it. Kronospan also do a beech / metallika combo in 8mm. A word of warning - get the merchant to cut it down - it comes on "jumbos" (circa 2.6/2.8 metres x 2.0 metres). 3mm is too this and will pop-out much too easily in my experience.

The American approach of fixing to walls isn't necessary. Once you've got six or seven units levelled-off and screwed together they don't move that easy. Add a worktop screwed through the front nailers/stretchers and they don't move at all. The only case I'd screw to the wall would be a single, stand-alone carcase, or possibly a run of two alone. Methods - frame fixing (masonry) or long screw into stud (stud walling) - both through top nailer with packer between nailer and wall as required.



sean_in_limerick":16d1mm4k said:


> What thickness MFC is typically used for carcases? I can get 3/4" in full 8*4 sheets, but for some bizarre reason i can only get the 21", 18" 8ft long MFC in 5/8" - is this thick enough?
> 
> What material is typically used for toekicks?



18mm MFC makes for a more durable carcass that 15mm. Some merchants, for example Hills Panel Products in Oldham do ready edged "strips" in a variety of widths, e.g. 570mm for carcasses. That's a quick way to get your materials pre-sized and edge banded. I'd ask around about this. 

Plinth covers (American = toekicks) are made from 18mm MFC, too. Normally in a colour to match the doors.

Scrit


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## Jake

George_N":6fsk3lld said:


> Scrit":6fsk3lld said:
> 
> 
> 
> Services at the back of carcasses need a 50mm space ... Normal carcass depth is 570mm, front to rear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that going to be too deep? If the carcasses are 570 mm deep with a 50 mm gap at the back for services, even my maths makes that 620 mm. If you add another 20 mm for the door that makes 640 mm. I am intending to make my units 520 mm deep + 50 mm service gap + 20 mm door = 590 mm, which should fit under my 600 mm worktop ok. Unless I'm missing something?
Click to expand...


I think Scrit is including the service gap in the depth of the carcasse - as the sidewalls are full depth, that includes the 50mm. It's just the backwall that is inset by the 50mm.


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## Scrit

George_N":1kwbjxmg said:


> Isn't that going to be too deep? If the carcasses are 570 mm deep with a 50 mm gap at the back for services, even my maths makes that 620 mm. If you add another 20 mm for the door that makes 640 mm. I am intending to make my units 520 mm deep + 50 mm service gap + 20 mm door = 590 mm, which should fit under my 600 mm worktop ok. Unless I'm missing something?


Clarification: Yes, George. The 525/720 were HEIGHTS. Standard DEPTH is 570mm for lowers, 280mm for uppers, although when I make uppers I prefer to go 350mm on uppers as that will accommodate a large dinner plate with an 8mm back and a ledge behind. The 570mm deoth INCLUDES the access gap which is put in by insetting the back 50mm. You need to run the sides back to the wall so you don't have a gap to hide at the end of a run.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The other "standards" are: door heights (base 570 or 715 high; drawront heights: 140 (for 5-drawer or 570 door + 1 drawer), 175 (for 4-drawer), 283 (2 pan drawers + 140mm rop drawer), 355 (2 pan drawers only) and 110 high is used beneath some ovens. There are others, but they are the most common to work with wirework and standard size drawer units.

One other tip, if I haven't already given it. Seal ALL exposed MFC edges. A quick coat of D3 (exterior grade) PVA will do this quite effectively (you should be using this for dowels in any case if you are dowel constructing).

Scrit


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## Scrit

To add to my last post. There is a question here: why used "standard" sizes at all? If you want to buy-in ready-made doors, then standard sizes are the way to go. The doors will then be more or less off the shelf and cheaper. Doing your own carcass can be a money-saver for the home woodworker, but it rarely makes sense for the trade woodworker unless the materials are something special (e.g. laminated solid wood, birch plywood, etc.) or the carcasses are seriuosly odd sizes (like my turned round washing machine "house") because the margins are very thin compared to the outlay on equipment: panel saw, edge bander, line borer or PTP borer, etc. Maybe I'm getting old, but it was never fun edge banding an entire kitchen with a hot iron and a trimmer, well maybe the first time, but the "magic" soon wears off. Edgebanding is a hot smelly operaton best done by a static machine which will always do it better in any case. and for those with a more quality approach - look for 18mm MFC colour-matched carcasses, dowel and glue construction (you will never get corner cabs for carousels this way - they're always KD to get them in the door!) with a 3mm PVC or ABS edging. Get that and you've found a better cab maker.

Scrit


----------



## George_N

Scrit, thanks for all the info on cabinet dimensions etc. We are lucky to have someone around who is willing to share their wealth of knowledge so freely. 
I was planning to build my base cabinets to the design in Danny Proulx's book, where he puts a full thickness, full width back on his units for rigidity. This obviously doesn't leave a service gap though. I was hoping to avoid insetting the backs as I don't want to cut housings (dados?) in the sides. If I inset the back and just butt joint it to the sides, I'd be worried about keeping the alignment right but I also don't really want to go down the doweling route for ease of production. 

cheers 

George


----------



## sean_in_limerick

ditto with that scrit - nice to talk to experts.
I think that the service area is only required for kitchen base units? After all of these discussions on the type of back to use i will probabaly end up using 1/4 inch ply or 8mm mdf for the backs - i really hadn't considered the problems of access to the plumbing under the sink too much - some great advice there.


----------



## Scrit

George_N":wmf2ofso said:


> I was hoping to avoid insetting the backs as I don't want to cut housings (dados?) in the sides. If I inset the back and just butt joint it to the sides, I'd be worried about keeping the alignment right but I also don't really want to go down the doweling route for ease of production.


George, when I make my own I tend to use an 8mm MFC back slid into a router cut groove and glued in place - but only for those carcasses where there's nothing to get at behind. In those case you can go deeper, too, but all carcasses need a front and rear stretcher in 18mm MFC - the rear one is vertical at the rear, the front one is normally horizontal (but see also note below). Where there is plumbing behind the carcass I'm currently considering a design which allows the back to be inserted and removed from the front of the unit and for sink units I nowadays have upright stretchers _front_ and rear rather than a horizontal one at the front - that means you aren't cutting into a stretcher and weakening the structure when you do the sink cut-out inthe worktop as well as giving you something tyo hang false drawer fronts on in a drawerline kitchen. I've built a couple of carcasses like that already but I still haven't perfected it - yet! The reason I use dowels is twofold - firstly a glued and dowelled carcass is extremely rigid (and all the better MFC carcasses you can buy are all done this way), and secondly I have the equipment to make them. Pocket hole screws or KD fittings work well, but ultimately aren't as strong, IMHO.



sean_in_limerick":wmf2ofso said:


> I think that the service area is only required for kitchen base units? After all of these discussions on the type of back to use i will probabaly end up using 1/4 inch ply or 8mm mdf for the backs - i really hadn't considered the problems of access to the plumbing under the sink too much - some great advice there.


The service gap is indeed only for base units. For upper cabs I'd recommend going to this type of hanger on a long rail. You will need to make up a drilling jig and the backs will need to be notched-out to accommodate the rail, but the rail has the advantage over individual plates of being able to span studs in stud walls and soft patches in old/poor masonry walls. The cab hangers are cam and screw adjusted to level the cabs. I make upper cabs so that the backs slide into a groove from the top and sit in a groove across the bottom. A spot or two of glue holds them and the top is screwed through into the rear of the top panel, which is shorter than the bottom panel. Gioves a rigid, strong and square carcass.

If you have a particularly poor wall you might like to consider adding steel angle brackets to the bottoms of the cabinets when they are hung. Swap the brackets around so that they are hanging down so to speak with the half which is screwed to the wall getting hidden by the cabonet when you hang it. (i.e. attach the "L" to the wall THEN hang the cab) Beats risking your best china! 

Finally always join your carcasses together with these, then if you do need to remove a damaged carcass in the future, it can be done.

The Americans may write the books, but I feel the Europeans are 10 or more years ahead in carcass construction hardware and techniques.


Scrit


----------



## neilc

Scrit,
I will be building my own kitchen in a few months time, and while I haven't put too much thought into it yet I assumed I would use birch ply for the carcase. Is it a cost factor using 18mm MFC or is it there some other reason for using it over birch ply.
Neil


----------



## George_N

neilc":h4trb5kg said:


> Scrit,
> I will be building my own kitchen in a few months time, and while I haven't put too much thought into it yet I assumed I would use birch ply for the carcase. Is it a cost factor using 18mm MFC or is it there some other reason for using it over birch ply.
> Neil



MFC is about half the price of cabinet grade ply and it's pre-finished. Do you really want to sand and paint all those cabinets?

cheers

George


----------



## Scrit

I agree with George - it's not only cost but also time. There is, however, another factor. Unless you buy Grade A or S birch plywood and specify "calibrated" the stuff will probably have a slight amount of twist or warp in it and it won't be perfectly flat either. Calibrated doesn't have this, but it does cost more than twice what a sheet of B/B or B/S grade does. If you do go the plywood route be very cautious of the Chinese sruff - a lot of it is still complete rubbish.

Scrit


----------



## engineer one

scrit, like you i have looked at the best way to sort out sink cabs.

in too many places, the under sink paraphanelia takes up too much 
room, and basically wastes tons of space, the u bend and the way in which 
the drain is fixed, means that you need to think about specially shaped 
shelves to enable you to use the unit at all.

the real culprits are those sinks with centre drain holes, but a full s or p trap and then maybe the waste flow from your washing machine or
dishwasher takes up bundles of space.

often in the better commercial sink units the front drawer insert 
is actually a strenghtener which does not get cut into.

and like scrit i think the so called french cleat along the top back is
the best way, not least because if you think about it, the bottom is kind
of being forced into the wall, and you can make that part of the cleat
on the wall very deep and strong.. i have used corner plates and drilled through the back at the bottom corners. 

paul :wink:


----------



## Scrit

I'd forget about trying to get a shelf in - complete waste of time with all the plumbing, etc. Instead go for a 450, 500 or 600 wide carcass beneath the sink bowl and hang a waste bin on the door to make use of the space in there or put in a lockable cage for bleaches, etc. if you have kids in the house. Putting in a "short" sink cab means that the one next door beneath the drainer can be anything you want, shelves, drawers, dish washer..... All without having to faff around with a compromised design (which is really what a sink base unit with a drawer is to my mind). A couple of tips on the plumbing - always put in isolators on hot and cold supplies (first time you need to mend a mixer tap you'll know why) and use compression fittings for pipework, copper and waste - they can be dismantled if necessary (try that with solvent weld wastes) and you won't set fire to the carcass brazing joints  

Scrit


----------



## engineer one

yea you are right scrit about the space problem, but you can get some metal trays which give you a little hope.
however, the waste bin can be compromised by the lack of space too,
and of course it always get full to quickly,
and now in many places you have to have 3 separate bins for re-cycling
gawd knows where flat dwellers are supposed to put those :lol: :lol: 

wouldn't mind but they are all so b big

second the isolaters, those red and blue taps are vital ,but don't forget
putting them on the washing machine pipes as well as those for the
dishwasher. actually a good trick is to put a pair very near where your cold water entry is to that you can isolate the whole area before the work. it also makes it easier to isolate leaks  cause they will occur.

i use plastic waste pipes, and never weld them.
i also suggest using those flexible metal pipes up to the taps, and Always fix the taps and tails to the sink before you fix it down properly.

cut the hole, check it works, fit the gasket, and silicon, then fix the taps and tails on the sink whilst it is upside down, and make sure the taps and any water holes are also properly sealed. put the drain in properly, as well as the overflow, make sure they all work before fixing the sink.

next you will want us to come to the liffey factory, and fix it for you.
:lol: :lol: :lol: 
paul :wink:


----------



## Jake

U-bends are stupid - HepVo traps are where its at.

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/442-0000


----------



## sean_in_limerick

i was cross-cutting melamine last night with a makita circular saw and a 40 tooth Freud blade - the finish was pretty good with only very minimal chipping - can anyone guess at how long the blade will last before sharpening?


----------



## engineer one

come on sean, now you want us to have a oujia board????

that's kind of like the cheapo watch i bought and the guy said the
warranty was 50/50 

either 50 seconds or 50 feet which ever came
first :lol: :lol: :lol: 

it depends as much on the blade as the user. are you getting burn out
and stalling, or is the blade cutting well and quickly because you are
not pushing it too hard.

sometimes they will only last for one board, another for years.
luck of the draw i think.

paul :wink:


----------



## sean_in_limerick

hmm, on reflection - perhaps i phrased it wrong... 
what i an trying to get a feeling for, is should i buy a second blade to have available when the first is being sharpened (which i send out) - if i am making maybe 100 21" cross-cuts? It takes about a week to get the blade sharpened where i live. 

Sean


----------



## engineer one

always safer to have a second blade, not least because the b*****r
always goes at the weekend :twisted: :twisted: 

just make sure that you store it properly

best wishes

paul :wink:


----------



## jasonB

A lot depends on the quality of your MFC, I caught a bit of metal in some Conti board a couple of weeks ago but the 18mm 8x4 sheets I normally use tend to be a bit better.

It also depends on the top rake of the blade, a higher(more pointed) tooth will give a better cut but will wear quicker. I Have two of most blades as my local sharpening service is a week turnaround or two if you blunt the blade the day after the van pick up from them.

Jason


----------



## Scrit

sean_in_limerick":3r77spmn said:


> It takes about a week to get the blade sharpened where I live.


About a week is the standard time everywhere - probably because the van only comes once a week.......

As Jason says, hit an inclusion and you'll need another blade. I currently run 4 sets (main blade + scorer) because at the worst point I had 1 set awaiting sharpening, one set being sharpened and one on the saw - then I hit a screw with the good set! *@*$(! So a second blade is a good move.

Scrit


----------



## Colin C

IF you are going to get a new one try Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... %3AIT&rd=1
I got one from them and it waa about half the price, if I have got it from the shops


----------



## JPEC

Nice link for the saw blades colin. 1/2 the price i usually pay. Do the sellers have regular stocks?

Julian


----------



## Colin C

From what I have seen I think they do but dont hold me to it, you can email them and ask  
I also do think they are the only ones but they p+p was about the best :wink:


----------



## sean_in_limerick

Hi Guys, i did some cutting over the weekend of 16mm MFC using a circular-saw to rough them out and a table saw to cross-cut to final dimensions (this is not for the kitchen, i am building a mitre-saw station for the workshop using essentially the same construction techniques i will use for the kitchen) - the circular saw has a 190mm40 tooth Freud blade and the table-saw had an 80 tooth blade. Both cut the MFC with only minimal chipping and i was delighted with the results - i use a clamp-guide to guide the circular saw and crosscut to about 1/2 longer than final dimensions - then i square one end on the table saw using a big crosscutting 'thing' i copied from Norm and cut to final width. The results are great and i have a spare blade for both saws. 

I am going back to an earlier question i asked on the thickness of the MFC typically used for kitchens. I can readily get 16mm (or is it 15mm - 5/8" in old money) - MFC in 16",18"21" and 24" widths - but i can only get 19mm (3/4") as full sheets. I don't really have the storage for 8*4 sheets and i would like to use the 16mm stuff. What are your thoughts on this. My current kitchen is 16mm and seems to be holding up fine (structurally speaking) - what is the 16mm typically used for if not for kitchens? All of my local suppliers stock mostly 16mm and have 19mm only as full sheets. I also note that Danny Proulx uses 16mm material throughout his book on kitchen construction. 

Cheers, 

Sean


----------



## Paul Chapman

Hi Sean,

I always prefer to use 18mm rather than 15mm stuff. I think it looks better and 15mm always seems to cause problems. I made my daughter a bathroom cabinet a couple of weeks ago using 15mm Contiplas (hate the stuff but that's what she wanted). I used concealed hinges for the doors and had to be very careful drilling the circular holes for the hinges to ensure that the point in the centre of the drill didn't poke through on the face side :roll: 

Paul


----------



## engineer one

basically sean it is the difference between store bought and made.

15 will always be slightly less stable and secure, and it is really
difficult to put things like door hinges and fixings in, not least because
it is almost impossible to guarantee the screws will stay in too long.
remember with a 12mm screw and 15mm carcase, you have only 3mmof
wood over the end of the screw. in 18mm you have 6,.

and frankly i find it difficult enough to be happy with the strength of the
screws when in 18. and the thing is, when you have to move the screws,
that causes problems.

so sean, spend the extra euro, and get a better thing, honest mate :lol: 

[aul :wink:


----------



## sean_in_limerick

I don't mind spending any extra, it's the storage of the sheets, but i suppose if i got them delivered and cut to width the same day it wouldn't be too bad - thanks for your input - my inital thoughts were to go with the 18mm - perhaps this is the way to go.


----------



## Paul Chapman

Also, Sean, if you are using any dowels or biscuits, or setting backs into grooves, the extra thickness is always better. With 15mm you always seem to be on the limit.

What ever you decide to use, I hope it goes well :wink: 

Paul


----------



## jasonB

You will also find that the 18mm board is a lot denser - smaller chips packed more tightly together.

A lot of the kitchen wirework & draw boxes are designed to fit into nominal 600,500,400 & 300 units with 18mm carcase thickness, if using the 15mm conti you may have to pack out the fittings.

Consealed hinges are generally also designed for 18mm carcases, if using standard crusiform mounting plates on 15mm board it puts your 35mm hole very close to the edge of the door, you can get round this by using mounting plates with a +3mm spacing

Use 3.5x16mm screws for your hardware if using 18mm board except the draw runners which are better with the short stubby 5.0mm draw screws, no risk of the heads fouling the runner.

Jason


----------



## RogerS

Scrit":qhbdnz0w said:


> Services at the back of carcasses need a 50mm space - the largest waste you'll normally see is a 40mm so 50mm space gives you room to manouvre.
> Scrit



Just installed a kitchen with a built-in washer/dryer and it was a pig to fit under the worktop. They really push the boundary. If I was doing it again I'd opt for a larger gap for services ...nearer 60mm or even 75mm....and the upside is you get more work surface area...


----------



## engineer one

yes but where do you get the wider worktop?????????

otherwise, you end up with shorter drawers which are really boring.
 
paul :wink:


----------



## RogerS

Paul

In an earlier kitchen and faced with a similar problem, we used a breakfasr bar sized laminated top which is wider than normal worktop. Or with natural material such as granite it's not a problem.


----------



## JPEC

Roger Sinden":34lb44zz said:


> Paul
> 
> In an earlier kitchen and faced with a similar problem, we used a breakfasr bar sized laminated top which is wider than normal worktop.


Pricey though and you would have to cut off the second post formed edge.
Also doesn't bb come in shorter lengths, ie straight joints :shock: 

I suppose you could offset the cost by fitting the offcut as ' chunky' upstand as an extra :lol: 

Sorry, don't have an alternative solution


----------



## JPEC

P.S. I agree with you about the service gap, have fitted many kitchens and 75mm makes life a lot easier. A 40mm waste pipe in a clip sits about 55mm total from the wall.
Never use ikea units :x no gap at all!
Not that any of us would dream of using factory cabs for the basis of a 'hand built kitchen' [-( 

Julian


----------



## tim

I think the 'service gap' can be a real prob.

Its no biggie to make the sink cabinet shallower to allow for pipes esp if the dw/ wm are sited close by so that all these pipes run behind two or three cabinets..... but then if you have a wide and deep sink, it can happily interfere with the back of the shallower cabinet :x 


I would never use a 600mm worktop if I could avoid it and use a minimum of 650mm or 750mm cut down if poss.


Cheers

Tim


----------



## engineer one

actually i am still concerned that after all this time we all still have not figured a way to make the sink cabinet a useful and workable space.

not having a go, but almost every sink cabinet i have tried to 
retro fit storage on is such a mess. often even the b****y waste bin
is often so close the edges. and for flat dwellers now the introduction
of re-cycling bins is a really difficult storage problem.  

i quite liked the idea of that straight trap, but i guess you have to check
with the local council to ensure that it is acceptable?

paul :wink:


----------



## Scrit

Roger Sinden":lims0b3l said:


> Scrit":lims0b3l said:
> 
> 
> 
> Services at the back of carcasses need a 50mm space - the largest waste you'll normally see is a 40mm so 50mm space gives you room to manouvre.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just installed a kitchen with a built-in washer/dryer and it was a pig to fit under the worktop. They really push the boundary. If I was doing it again I'd opt for a larger gap for services ...nearer 60mm or even 75mm....and the upside is you get more work surface area...
Click to expand...

Should have said that was the bare minimum. I always tell the sparks to put the sockets in behind the carcass next door to the washer/dish washer/oven and if I put in the plumbing (again, normal) the waste and water both go in next door and not behind the cabs. The modern wastes which plumb-in through a solid connection/Jubilee clip at the sink are far and away better than the old style S-trap and tube up wall approach.



engineer one":lims0b3l said:


> yes but where do you get the wider worktop?????????


You buy a 670mm or wider breakfast bar piece and rip one edge off. Remember to seal the back, though.



JPEC":lims0b3l said:


> P.S. I agree with you about the service gap, have fitted many kitchens and 75mm makes life a lot easier. A 40mm waste pipe in a clip sits about 55mm total from the wall.


Yes, but who says you need a full skim of plasterwork behind the units? :wink: Also grout and tiling give another 10 to 12mm to play with. Tight, but not impossible if you don't insist on running the services 1/2 mile to where they go through the wall! I always try to keep my wastes as low as possible - maybe there is a point in having 32mm wastes after all......



tim":lims0b3l said:


> Its no biggie to make the sink cabinet shallower to allow for pipes esp if the dw/ wm are sited close by so that all these pipes run behind two or three cabinets..... but then if you have a wide and deep sink, it can happily interfere with the back of the shallower cabinet


It's for that reason that I advocate making both the front and rear stretchers/nailers in a sink base unit vertically orientated rather than the conventional horizontal - gives you something to hang the drawer fronts on in a drawer line kitchen, too, and won't be weakened as much when you do the top cut-outs for the sink, although it does mean that bracketing the stretcher to the top is a good idea.

Scrit


----------



## sean_in_limerick

Hi All - as a trial run i am in the middle of building a few 'kitchen-like' units for my garage - which i will make into a fixed platform for my compound-mitre saw. I have used 15mm MFC for the individual units (2 single and one double size) with an oak face frame. Just a couple of points. 

The 15mm is not thick enough - thanks for everyone for pointing this out, i will be using the 18mm stuff for the kitchen. 
I used pocket-screws to connect the face frame together and to attach the ff to the cabinets - these worked flawlessly. 
I can't work out how to size the drawers for using the Blum tandem slides - i am leaving this until i have hung the doors and fitted drawers with less exotic slides. 
Had trouble getting the units square (my table-saw could be better) - how do you guys adjust for square if it's slightly out? 
I attached the adjustable feet to the bases but can't work out how i would adjust the legs that are at the back of the units - potentially just out of reach - how do you guys manage this?

Sean

Sean


----------



## nickson71

I must have longer arms  


sorry about the lack of help on that one


----------



## George_N

sean_in_limerick":s4detizj said:


> Had trouble getting the units square (my table-saw could be better) - how do you guys adjust for square if it's slightly out?
> I attached the adjustable feet to the bases but can't work out how i would adjust the legs that are at the back of the units - potentially just out of reach - how do you guys manage this?
> 
> Sean
> 
> Sean



I have a sliding extension table for my Triton workcentre which is great for this sort of thing. I've also just built a cross-cut sled which runs on the inner rail of the extension table, for when it's not convenient to set up the full table (it takes up a lot of space).
Adjusting rear feet on cabinets usually entails lying on the floor and stretching under the units...not easy if you have short arms, I suppose.


----------



## engineer one

now you know why people specify those metal legs which you can
access through a hole drilled above where the adjuster is.
you close it off with a bung.

the other thing to do is to adjust them before you push the 
unit back in. but we never remember to do that do we??? :lol: 

paul :wink:


----------



## sean_in_limerick

i have to be honest and admit i don't have the longest arms- but there seems to be a threaded insert to the top of the adjustable feet but nothing to actually put in there - i was wondering if they could be adjusted from above by drilling a hole through the bottom of the cabinet - and if so what do i need to do the adjusting?


----------



## Scrit

sean_in_limerick":1lgsfo24 said:


> I attached the adjustable feet to the bases but can't work out how i would adjust the legs that are at the back of the units - potentially just out of reach - how do you guys manage this?


Lie on the floor on your side and stretch. Helps if you add add units one at a time, then you only have one leg to grovel for. Being hung like a gorilla (having long arms) does help, though.

Another solution is to fix a 3 x 2 stud to the wall (level, of course) then sit the rear of the carcasses on this "ledge" (no need for back feet then). This method does mean you need to bracket or otherwise fix the carcass to the wall.



sean_in_limerick":1lgsfo24 said:


> ......but there seems to be a threaded insert to the top of the adjustable feet but nothing to actually put in there - I was wondering if they could be adjusted from above by drilling a hole through the bottom of the cabinet - and if so what do i need to do the adjusting?


About the only feet I've seen which do this are supplied by PWS in the UK and they're aluminium, not plastic. They are adjusted by a screwdriver and you need to put a "bung" in the hole - which then means you don't have a flat bottom shelf. Never rains, does it? :roll: 

The other thing about the bottom-adjuster feet (as opposed to top adjuster) is that they have generally got a "lip" at the top - this should overlap the bottom edge of the sides and gives the carcass a bit more strength at the side/bottom joint.

Scrit


----------



## Scrit

tim":2m8wv120 said:


> I would never use a 600mm worktop if I could avoid it and use a minimum of 650mm or 750mm cut down if poss.


The problems of going to 700mm worktops are (at least) threefold - they rob a lot of space from smaller kitchens, the rear is difficult to reach at a standard height of c. 910mm if you are under 5 ft 6in high (and many women are 5ft 3in ir thereabouts) and they tend to look a bit odd as almost all sinks are designed to fit into 600mm tops.....

Scrit


----------



## sean_in_limerick

Hi everyone,
I bought some blum suspension cabinet fittings for hanging the upper units - my thinking being that this would save me a lot of time levelling everything because they can be adjusted in three directions - has anyone used these and if so, what do i need to do to the back of the cabinet to allow enough room for them. There is a technical drawing on the isaac lord website but i'm not used to reading these things and i can't decode it - can anyone help?

http://www.isaaclord.co.uk/prodList.asp?searchText=suspension+fitting&Searchmode=all


----------



## Scrit

Basically you need a small rectangular cut-ouy on both the lft and right side of the back at the top to accommodate the suspension claw. When the cab is assembled push the fitting into place, poke the claw thtough the cut-out and screw onto the side. Simple

Scrit


----------



## sean_in_limerick

thanks Scrit, how much should i inset the back of the cabinet? Does insetting the back make the placement of the wall plates critical?


----------



## jasonB

The wall plates are usually 6mm total depth so you need at least that. But if you put your groove 6mm in from the back edge thats a bit weak and there is a risk of the MFC breaking away.

I usually put the inner face of the back panel 18mm in from the back edge if using white faced hardboard or 8mm MFC. If using a thicker back then about 28mm works OK on an 18mm board.

Jason


----------



## sean_in_limerick

is the position of the wall plates critical - i guess you measure the inside dimensions of the back and fix the plates with this distance between them - but this doesn`t allow for much movement of the of the wall cabinet if you don`t get it quite right - perhaps i am worryîng about nothing! thanks for your responses


----------



## sean_in_limerick

Hi Guys,
Does anybody know where i can source some concealed 35mm cup hinges for face frames? I have tried the hinge that Isaac Lord have but i don't like the gap it leaves on the hinge side of the door (about 1/4 inch) - this hinge fits to the front face of the face frame and i know that Blum do a side-mounted version, but i can't find a supplier - 

Cheers,

Sean


----------



## johnelliott

sean_in_limerick":peb3wgpk said:


> Hi everyone,
> I bought some blum suspension cabinet fittings for hanging the upper units - my thinking being that this would save me a lot of time levelling everything because they can be adjusted in three directions - has anyone used these and if so, what do i need to do to the back of the cabinet to allow enough room for them. There is a technical drawing on the isaac lord website but i'm not used to reading these things and i can't decode it - can anyone help?
> 
> http://www.isaaclord.co.uk/prodList.asp?searchText=suspension+fitting&Searchmode=all



I use these all the time. The ideal dimensions are to use a 6.5mm (or thereabouts) back set into grooves in the cabinet sides. These groves should be about 18mm back from the rear edge (cut the cabinet top and base to suit, then you will be able to screw the back to the back edge of the top and base. The fittings require a small rectangular hole for the claw to reach through. The 18mm set back will allow a modicum of scribing should that be necessary.

Although you can use the wall plates to hang the cupboard on, I prefer the rails. With a run of cabinets I notch the back of the cabinet sides to fit over the rails, but not the end cabinets of course. The rail shares the load over a large nimber of fixings, and the holes used can be chosen to avoid buried cables.

John


----------



## Scrit

sean_in_limerick":3dg8yd3f said:


> Does anybody know where I can source some concealed 35mm cup hinges for face frames?


I presume that you mean these - my local supplier is Woodfit (although not the cheapest):







As for cabinet hangers on upper cabinets I tend to use this sort of thing: 











These are the Hafele ones although many other suppliers do similar stuff. They all seem to require a 16 to 20mm inset. The plus point is that the hanger is hidden from view, but the back is drilled to allow you to adjust the cab height from inside the cab after you've hung it. And as John says, run a continuous rail and notch-out the cab ends for it - that way you can span bad bits of the wall (especially on old houses or where going onto stud or breeze block walls) and add extra screws, to take the load. 

If you know that a cab is going to carry a large load, or that the wall is a bit suspicious then hang it, level up, remove and add angle brackets at the bottom - a bit fiddly to mark and drill, but will add to the certainty of your installation. Once you've got the pelmets on a spot of paint will make the brackets disappear if you really are that fussy. If your cab. back is inset enough it is also possible to add a dowelled or biscuited brace across the bottom back (on the outside) and screw through this into the wall for extra support instead of fiddling about with angle brackets. Finally, don't skimp on screws and fixings. I use decent quality fixings (Fischer when I can get them) and hang my upper cabs on 2-1/2 or 3in screws, a signwriters' trick to reduce the possibility of pull-out.

Scrit


----------



## sean_in_limerick

Sorry guys i was without access to my computer for a while - when i install those hinges you show Scrit, there is an ugly gap between the door and the face frame of about a quarter of an inch - is this normal?

Rgds,

sean


----------



## Scrit

Hi Sean

All kitchen doors and drawers sit slightly proud of the frame. The Blum face frame lay-on hinges should mean that the doors sit 2.5 to 3mm proud of the frames as this drawing shows:






Even conventional lay-on doors on a frameless carcass normally sit 2mm or more proud:






this table id from the Blum catalogue and refers to conventional hinges:






If they didn't then the door would bind on the frame every time it was opened or closed. The drawers normally have a rubber bumper or two applied to the face of the carcass to act as a buffer.

Scrit


----------



## sean_in_limerick

i must be slow, i'm not sure we are talking about the same gap, the gap that concerns me is when the door is closed, between the inside of the door on the hinge side to the front of the face-frame, i think this is TS in the drawings. Perhaps i have installed the hinge wrong? - i will take some photo's and post them. Just to be sure these hinge plates are installed on the front of the face frame? 

Thanks again,

Sean


----------



## Scrit

Yes, they are meant to be installed onto the front of the face frame. Blum have recently started to offer another type of face frame hinge in the UK, the Compact:






These fit onto the edge of the frame, but they have very limited overlay. No idea who stocks them, though.

I would like to see a photo of your problem. The gap is indeed TS,. Also is your overlay a complete overlay or partial?

Scrit


----------



## sean_in_limerick

i have a complete overlay - i was hoping for about 1/2 inch on all sides (and like a fool built my doors accordingly, so they ended up a little short in width because of the amount of room these hinges take out of the face frame on the hinge side.) - this was only on a unit that i built in my garage to iron out all of these problems, i will take a photo this evening

i am also trying out these - to see if they are any better

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2281

sean


----------



## Scrit

They may well be - as you can see Blum offer a different range in the USA (that particular hinge is a USA market item). The only thing to watch on the frame side mounted hinges is that the width of the face frame needs to be circa 35 mm or so (from memory - the drawing confirms this as 36 to 39mm). A more available alternative in Europe, if your face frames are fairly narrow, is to mount a conventional hinge on a tall spacer plate like this:











All of the major hinge makers (Blum, Salice, Hettich, Grass, Mepla, etc) make these mounting plates (they go on the inside of the cabinet) although as you can see they are really designed for inset or "in-frame" doors.

Scrit


----------



## jasonB

Woodfit do the blum one like in scrits pic, you can use them with overlap or inset hinges which will give a faceframe overhang of 9 or 18mm. 

Used them recently on this










Jason


----------



## sean_in_limerick

sorry for the lack of picture Scrit, my camera has shuffled on and i need to invest in a new one. I will be using the face frame hinges from Rockler as i mentioned above - i got a couple to test them out and they work and look great - and they couldn't be easier to install and adjust. My oak finally arrived from my local supplier - i am letting that sit in my workshop before i make a start on the p/t.

Just a quick question on hanging upper wall - corner units. The walls in my house are notoriously out of square- i measured last night where an upper corner unit will go and it's a long way off. I am not sure on how to keep the cabinet run on either side of the corner unit level. How do you guys deal with out of square corners?

Sean[/img]


----------



## engineer one

sean how about buying a laser??????????

the other thing is to block out the wall, and use fillers afterwards.

maybe this is the time to use french cleats.

paul :wink:


----------



## sean_in_limerick

a laser?

French cleats will just follow the wall i think - and i will still have trouble hanging the unit and keeping the cabinets either side of it flush- do i have to make the cabinet at some obscure angle to follow the angle of the wall or is there a simpler way to do it?

cheers,

Sean


----------



## engineer one

ok the laser, even a cheap one will allow you to mark lines which
are the same level on either side of the corner, much easier than 
using normal levels. :lol: 

what most people do is fit a filler strip to cover these kinds of
problems.

remember that in most corners you will have wasted space, so 
you can be creative in the way you hide it.a lot depends on the type
of doors you are using, but if they are solid it is easier.

in principle make the right hand cupboard go further into the wall
by the depth of the gap. but up the left hand cupboard as near as possible,
then think about a corner filler .

once installed, then cut the right hand door down, but hinge it on the right
hand side, that way when it shuts it will hide more of the gap. but remember to allow clearance to open it.

hope that helps more sean, good luck

paul :wink:


----------



## Scrit

Hi Sean

Depending on how far out your walls are out you may need to pack out behind the rails although the type of hanger I mentioned will accommodate 8 or more millimetres out of plumb in 720mm - more than that is tough. The best way to hide the gap between the cab and the wall is to make and panel or frame and panel for each end of the run with a wide rear stile then scribe to the wall (washer and pencil to mark out).

Best way to handle corners (if not using a corner, L-shape cabinet) is to make your "blind" cabinet a tad short - so if you are usein a 500 mm wide door on the bland cab, make-it no longer than 1050mm despite having 1100 mm (in theory). That gives you room to manouvre. Also use a solid "packer" to giveyou an inch or so clearance. Or did you mean something else? Before starting have you laid out the ground plan on squared paper and planned out in 25mm "blocks"?

Using a laser level is all very well, but a length of clear poly piping (from a compressed air place, daity farm supplies outlet or the local pub if you know the landlord well enough) with water in it will work as a water level (the Stanley vial ends add about £25 to the cost and aren't worth it for a one off job). Th only downside is that it's a two man job - so you'll need to rope the missus in!) - upside is that it is more accurate than a laser level :shock: 

Scrit


----------



## sean_in_limerick

thanks again scrit - i have put a quick picture up of what i am talking about - it can be found here http://mediamax.streamload.com/Switchbo ... b11d890a05

i will be scribing solid panels to the end of the cabinet runs so hiding the gap at the end of the wall won't be a problem - i just can't get clear in my head how everthing is going to stay square and flush from the front - particularly important as i will be lining up face frames on all cabinets. - maybe i am worrying about nothing?

Sean


----------



## engineer one

think you are worrying about too much. since almost all kitchens are
out of square, most people kind of do what scrit says, or just make 
longer end pieces on the face frames.

paul :wink:


----------



## Scrit

sean_in_limerick":1ns5jg23 said:


> ...I just can't get clear in my head how everthing is going to stay square and flush from the front - particularly important as I will be lining up face frames on all cabinets. - maybe I am worrying about nothing?



Hi Sean

There is a bit of a knack to putting in a kitchen. Firstly have you done a detailed scale floor plan? If not you can't even start. It will help you visualize where the cabs go and possibly foresee any fitting problems. Once you have the floor plan you need to lay-out the levels in the kitchen - basically you need to draw two lines round - one at the height of the tops of the cabinets (typically worktop height - 40mm) and the second at the bottoms of the upper cabinets with a third line at the tops of the upper cabinets if you have any full height cabinets. A rod assists greatly in doing this and the water level can then be used to check and correct everything for level. At this point chalk-mark the cabinets onto the wall so you have an approximate reference - again a rod is very useful for this as it reduces the potential for error.

Typically you are aiming for a worktop height of around 865 to 915mm (100-150mm plinth + 725 mm high base cabinet + 40mm top) as a "standard". If you build your base cabs on adjuster feet setting them level is a doddle providing you have a 3ft or 1 metre builders level. Start installing your cabinets from one corner and work out. Level the carcase side to side using the level, then rear to front, again using the level, then bring the rear up to march your line on the wall and relevel rear to front. Once you have the first carcass in the next one has one end adjusted so that it matches the first - butt the carcasses together and clamp-up with three QR cramps. Now level the other end. Screw the two carcasses together using either cabinet joiners or screws driven from both sides (2 to 4 screws per base cabinet side from each side). Continue going down one side of the kitchen until they are all in or you reach a gap - then work out from the corner unit in the other direction levelling and joining in the same way. I add face frames after the carcasses are in situ, especially if I have one frame running across two carcasses.

If you go that way about the base carcasses will all be square and level. Remember, check and recheck all the time. You are never going to make the cabinets fit the walls exactly, so don't worry about it, concentrate on getting the cabinets in plumb and square and level to each other - the worktop, tiling and scribed end panels will cover a multitude of sins!

Regards

Scrit


----------



## Scrit

Sean

There's one other thing I didn't mention - I check for out of square corners using a 4ft fold-away square. This is an expensive item to buy for a one off kitchen, but a 3-4-5 square can be made by simply nailing 3ft, 4ft and 5ft lengths of 2 x 1 PAR together (after halving the ends with a renon saw, that is). If you find that the corner is "hollow", i.e. there is a gap betweenthe square and the wall in the corner by more than an inch it may be nececssary to build-up the plasterwork between the base cabs and the tiop edger upper units ONLY (saves materials and in any case nobody ntyices the corner above the cornices). This does mean building-up the wall before hanging the upper cabs, though. That build-up may be just a skim of one-coat plaster. In extreme cases it may require an extra layer of plasterboard to be nailed to the wall (if it's stud wall) or fixed with dabs of plasterboard adhesive, and then the levels built-up with plaster and a float. If it's the other way round, i.e. a gap on the end away from the corner I reckon it's better to "bend" the unts round to fit the wall and end-up with a slightly greater than 90 degree angle in the corner. I uswe two different methods because I find an angle less than right angles in a "square" jitchen to be potentially visually disturbing whereas obtise corners don't seem to be that obvious.

Scrit


----------



## jasonB

As Scrit says if the corners are slightly out of square then pack the units and keep the faces at 90 deg. If there is a lot of run out then you have two options, pack the wall or set the units to follow the wall. 

This kitchen had a 2" gap over my 4ft fold out square which was almost 6" over the 12ft wall! I set the cabs to follow the wall as packing the wall by 6" would have meant the units on the left didn't have enough space to fit in. It does not notice so you are probably worrying over nothing, it just makes the draws on th eless than 90 deg corner come a bit close to the cabinet handles :!: 

If you opt for 100mm plinths I would increase the doors to 775mm as if you stick to the smaller size as scrit suggested you will only have 825mm under the worktop which will likely affect what appliances will fit under the W/T  

Jason


----------



## Barry Burgess

Just make sure that the counter top covers all the errors with the walls. This is what I did, but my daughter decided 1 year later to change the counter top using a narrower one - pain in the ass - had to fit a ali cover strip to hide the gap. Follow Scrits advice he has fitted loads of cupboards from his comments. 
Fitting cupboards you must expect no walls to be square or floors to be level. 
Barry 
Part time cupboard fitter


----------



## johnelliott

Another good tip, and a technique I use all the time, is to space the base units out from the wall by 15mm. My standard measurements are base cab depth 565mm (alows for 500mm drawer plus a 6mm back plus a 50mm recess for pipes), then the 15mm space plus say 20mm for the doors means a 620mm (or thereabouts) worktop will be needed. If a cabinet side shows then make that side 580 (or better still 590 then you can scribe it for the inevitable sloping wall).

Anyway, the idea behind spacing the cabinets out 15mm is in case the wall curves inward along its length. If it does, then you just leave out the spacers behind the middle cabinets, and the fronts will still be in a straight line. (unless the wall curves in by more than 15mm!

John


----------



## engineer one

that's a good idea john, the other thing to do is make a your own worktop 
out of pine for instance thenyou can make it the width you want haha.

but seriously a mate of mine put a thicker wooden upstand in place first,
then scribed the worktop to fit. of course this does not work for the
top cabinets.

paul :wink:


----------



## johnelliott

engineer one":1kxpu2o9 said:


> that's a good idea john, the other thing to do is make a your own worktop
> out of pine for instance thenyou can make it the width you want haha.
> 
> but seriously a mate of mine put a thicker wooden upstand in place first,
> then scribed the worktop to fit. of course this does not work for the
> top cabinets.
> 
> paul :wink:



You appear to be making a joke but I don't get it, perhaps you would explain. Does the winking emoticon indicate that your joke isn't meant to be taken seriously? What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

BTW, 616mm worktops are available from Howdens and MFI, althugh my kitchens are usually fitted with granite worktops.

John


----------



## engineer one

john, i'm old enough to remember when we did not use square boxes
to fit kitchens. not quite as old as percy blandford, but :lol: 

the reason people moved to using the so called euro box was simplicity,
cost saving, and ease of fitting. but one area where it is not easy to fit
it that most european homes seem to be squarer than ours, so when they first came out people used old fashoined means to get a square look.

the simplest is a wall plate at the back, this can either be higher than the 
worktop, to make an upstand, or in line with the worktop, then you carve into the wall plate rather than the worktop or the wall.

obviously this makes more sense when you tile at the back because you 
can cover it, but i have seen a number of handmade pine kitchens which 
have used well plates to align the cabinets and then either made their
own or modified worktops.

anyway this is kind of off post since sean asked about aligning top 
cabinets, and making a thicker wall plate at the top to hang off would
also be a solution.

in all cases, with out of square walls etc, the need is to convince the 
eyes that the cabinets are not as out of square as they could be.

in these cases the use of square lines i.e. tiles on a counter top is not 
a good thing because it draws you eye into a contrary view.

sorry john if i have not clarified to your desire what i said, but it was not
a joke. 

having in the past fitted both kitchens and granite worktops and 
b****y great fireplaces when they were pretty rare, i do understand
about scribing big heavy lumps of wood and stone into unsquare 
walls, and find that a wall plate makes life easier, and gives you less
to do on the wall, whilst reducing the risk of screwing up the worktop.

paul :wink: 

ps if you check other posts of mine, you will see the emoticon on them all.
at a certain age, it is amazing that you find every day that you know so 
much but so little, and you can learn something new every day even from 
someone who does not do what you do , but looks at things in a different
way.


----------



## johnelliott

Seems to me that my solution is a lot more simple and straight forward than yours, so I will continue to use it and recomend it to others.

As for checking your other posts, I'm afraid I'm a bit too busy for that at the moment

John


----------



## engineer one

john, no problem, but part of the value of this forum is that you 
can pick up something useful if you are open to it.

but i do agree about leaving a larger space behind the cabinets
to access the plumbing etc.
paul :wink:


----------



## Scrit

johnelliott":3mnzoiro said:


> A technique I use all the time, is to space the base units out from the wall by 15mm. My standard measurements are base cab depth 565mm (alows for 500mm drawer plus a 6mm back plus a 50mm recess for pipes), then the 15mm space plus say 20mm for the doors means a 620mm (or thereabouts) worktop will be needed. If a cabinet side shows then make that side 580 (or better still 590 then you can scribe it for the inevitable sloping wall).
> 
> Anyway, the idea behind spacing the cabinets out 15mm is in case the wall curves inward along its length. If it does, then you just leave out the spacers behind the middle cabinets, and the fronts will still be in a straight line. (unless the wall curves in by more than 15mm!
> 
> John


The main problem with that, John, is that laminate tops are either 600 or 605mm. Ideally you want 5 to 10mm overhang at the front, so that would leave you with a carcass depth of 600mm less: 15mm gap, 5mm front overhang, 20mm door+reveal thickness (or face frame w/inset door) 560mm. The "standard" is 570mm and then scribe the back..... I feel it's easier to correct the wall in many cases. Solid timber or granite tops are less of a problem, but even there a standard solid wood top is 600 to 610mm in my experience.



johnelliott":3mnzoiro said:


> BTW, 616mm worktops are available from Howdens and MFI, although my kitchens are usually fitted with granite worktops.


Yes, but that's one supplier - and one with a reputation for supplying banana-shaped worktops.......

The point about upstands/tiles is also very valid - they give yo an extra 6 to 20mm to play with and so can be extremely useful so long as you can hide any gaps at the exposed ends.

Scrit


----------



## Scrit

I just had a look at my swatches and 600 to 605mm is the standard for the market leaders - Duropal, Prima, Axiom and Resopal Duropal are about the best IMHO). To go wider I just get a narrow breakfast bar top and slice one edge off. Reseal afterwards. The only problem is tjhat appliances, etc are designed to fit into nominally 600mm deep units and worktops wider than about 650mm start to look decidedly odd, as well as robbing precious space

Scrit


----------



## johnelliott

engineer one":39wkblu2 said:


> john, no problem, but part of the value of this forum is that you
> can pick up something useful if you are open to it.



And that value is spoiled if one member tries to instruct another, or takes the mickey.


----------



## engineer one

doh :-k 

paul :wink:


----------



## johnelliott

Scrit":1hpco9ny said:


> johnelliott":1hpco9ny said:
> 
> 
> 
> A technique I use all the time, is to space the base units out from the wall by 15mm. My standard measurements are base cab depth 565mm (alows for 500mm drawer plus a 6mm back plus a 50mm recess for pipes), then the 15mm space plus say 20mm for the doors means a 620mm (or thereabouts) worktop will be needed. If a cabinet side shows then make that side 580 (or better still 590 then you can scribe it for the inevitable sloping wall).
> 
> Anyway, the idea behind spacing the cabinets out 15mm is in case the wall curves inward along its length. If it does, then you just leave out the spacers behind the middle cabinets, and the fronts will still be in a straight line. (unless the wall curves in by more than 15mm!
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> The main problem with that, John, is that laminate tops are either 600 or 605mm. Ideally you want 5 to 10mm overhang at the front, so that would leave you with a carcass depth of 600mm less: 15mm gap, 5mm front overhang, 20mm door+reveal thickness (or face frame w/inset door) 560mm. The "standard" is 570mm and then scribe the back..... I feel it's easier to correct the wall in many cases. Solid timber or granite tops are less of a problem, but even there a standard solid wood top is 600 to 610mm in my experience.
> 
> 
> 
> johnelliott":1hpco9ny said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, 616mm worktops are available from Howdens and MFI, although my kitchens are usually fitted with granite worktops.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, but that's one supplier - and one with a reputation for supplying banana-shaped worktops.......
> 
> The point about upstands/tiles is also very valid - they give yo an extra 6 to 20mm to play with and so can be extremely useful so long as you can hide any gaps at the exposed ends.
> 
> Scrit
Click to expand...


Well, I gave all the measurements, so if someone is unable or unwilling to obtain a suitable worktop depth then all they need to do is to adjust one the measurements. The easiest one would be the cabinet depth, and do that by reducing the drawer depth to 450mm, which in any case is what you will find in most if not all ready made units. I would still recommend the spacing out technique as being the easiest way to cope with a wall that is curving inwards.

In my experience (perhaps I've been spoiled) then granite at 620mm or more is no problem at all because it is being cut from a slab specifically to fit the kitchen. The wooden worktops I've used (as little as possible) are approx 650mm deep. But as I said above, if these aren't available then obviously something else has to be adjusted to suit.

I was amused by your comment about it being easier to correct the wall than (presumably) to use my spacing out technique. The walls I deal with are not so amenable that straightening them is easier than using or leaving out a few spacers.

John


----------



## orangetlh

just a quick note on your wall unit hanging. If you are using the end panels then what we do is cut two battens, one at say 50x25 and one at 50x15. The 50x25 is screwed to the wall just above the cabinet height line with the 50mm protuding from the wall. then screw the 15mm batten below the cabinet, again with 50 mm protuding. Then place the cabinet between the two battens and screw up and down into the carcase. That way you have plenty of room to square the carcase. To cover the 15mm batten we machine a 25mm thick bullnose with a 20x9mm deep rebate in the back bottom edge, mitre it round to form a pelmet, then scribe a piece of 9mm veneered MDF under the unit and fix it inside the rebate and to the 15mm batten. Heres a pic 

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/orangetlh-scan.jpg


----------



## Scrit

My personal feeling is that gets in the way ogf the tiler..... My current kitchen was done that way and I hate it. One day...

Scrit


----------



## Scrit

John

The fact is that the tw o largest QUALITY players, Duropal (Pfleiderer) and Axiom (Formica) sipplu 600mm as a norm, as do Resopal, Bushboard, etc. Yes - I think you've been spoiled, but then I can plaster as well...... :lol: .

Scrit


----------



## johnelliott

Scrit":3rlgglwz said:


> I can plaster as well...... :lol: .
> 
> Scrit



OOooh!, aren't you talented!!

If this was a plasterer's forum then I can well imagne that the technique of straightening a wall by applying plaster would go down very well. Especially if you were charging for it. As I understand it the original poster was discussing his own kitchen, and using a few pieces of 15mm plywood as required to get a firm fixing to a curving wall whilst leaving a dead straight front is obviously a better solution even if it is one that you hadn't thought of.

Anyway, I've already disposed of your (standard worktop dimensions)objection to my spacing out idea by explaining how the cabinet dimensons can be varied to suit whatever worktop solution the person concerned wishes to use.

John


----------



## orangetlh

> My personal feeling is that gets in the way ogf the tiler



I disagree, if the bullnose and soffit is finished tight to the wall it gives the tiler a nice straight edge to tile upto. At the end of the day you have to think what looks better, a wall carcase with gaps all around it and a MFC base showing or a bullnose and soffit that closes all the gaps up and is finshed the same colour/timber as your kitchen doors etc. If the tiler wants to tile beyind the soffit then they can tile it first and you can cut the soffit to butt upto it.


----------



## Scrit

johnelliott":e8hqtjnf said:


> Scrit":e8hqtjnf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can plaster as well...... :lol: .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OOooh!, aren't you talented!!
Click to expand...

I hardly think that sarcasm is called for when we are discussing installation rather than making of a kitchen. As you are no doubt well aware _any_ experienced 2nd fix carpenter, joiner or even kitchen fitter will by the nature of the job be multi-skilled. i.e. be able to tackle small plastering, tiling, plumbing and flooring jobs and so forth. It is all part of the job of installing a kitchen, isn't it? Or do you bring in other trades to do an hours work when you install a kitchen rather than do it yourself?

The principle point about using standard depth (570mm) carcasses, which you have unfortunately missed, is that if your carcass isn't 570mm deep then any built-under or built-in items like ovens, fridges, dishwashers, etc. probably won't fit. You omitted to point out that your method only works if you are not installing any appliances - a minor but important derail.

Even knocking just 5mm off the depth of the carcasses can make for problems with some of the dishwashers and ovens out there (fridges seem to be easier for some reason) and then you might additionally find problems getting items like hobs to fit correctly above ovens because of where gas pipes, etc need to go. I suppose that's why many makers/installers prefer to stay with "standard" sizes. It also means going wider is a more viable approach, but if a wall is bowed in or bellied out badly at worktop level I for one would find that visually very intrusive, so I'd fix the wall - even though that's not a woodworking task

Scrit


----------



## RogerS

orangeth....I quite like the bullnose idea but how do you finish it to match the doors...if the doors are high gloss finish ...in whatever colour from tbe very wide range available?


----------



## jasonB

Also how do you deal with the front edge of the MDF panel under the units if there is no pelmet and how do you fit the type of halogen lights that go between wall and underside of carcase.

Also on the base unit depth debate a lot of wirework and pull out need at least 500mm so this should be taken into account if making your own shallow carcases.

JAson


----------



## johnelliott

Scrit":2humfjoe said:


> johnelliott":2humfjoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scrit":2humfjoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can plaster as well...... :lol: .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OOooh!, aren't you talented!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hardly think that sarcasm is called for when we are discussing installation rather than making of a kitchen. As you are no doubt well aware _any_ experienced 2nd fix carpenter, joiner or even kitchen fitter will by the nature of the job be multi-skilled. i.e. be able to tackle small plastering, tiling, plumbing and flooring jobs and so forth. It is all part of the job of installing a kitchen, isn't it? Or do you bring in other trades to do an hours work when you install a kitchen rather than do it yourself?
Click to expand...

OK, maybe the sarcasm wasn't justified, although there was somethng about the way you made the original point that suggested that there was something that you could do that I couldn't.
I wouldn't bring in a plasterer to do an hour's work, but I wouldn't bring in a plasterer to straighten a wall anyway, because as I keep pointing out, it isn't necessary, and not possible to do in an hour anyway. 



Scrit":2humfjoe said:


> The principle point about using standard depth (570mm) carcasses, which you have unfortunately missed, is that if your carcass isn't 570mm deep then any built-under or built-in items like ovens, fridges, dishwashers, etc. probably won't fit. You omitted to point out that your method only works if you are not installing any appliances - a minor but important derail.
> 
> 
> 
> Even knocking just 5mm off the depth of the carcasses can make for problems with some of the dishwashers and ovens out there (fridges seem to be easier for some reason) and then you might additionally find problems getting items like hobs to fit correctly above ovens because of where gas pipes, etc need to go. I suppose that's why many makers/installers prefer to stay with "standard" sizes. It also means going wider is a more viable approach, but if a wall is bowed in or bellied out badly at worktop level I for one would find that visually very intrusive, so I'd fix the wall - even though that's not a woodworking task
> 
> Scrit



Amongst the points that you don't seem to be able to grasp is that my advice is based on experience, and has worked well in many kitchens, all of which include appliances. How can this be? Well, if you think about it, you will remember that I said that the cabinets were spaced out 15mm. 15mm plus (in the case I described but one that is easily modified) 565mm is 580mm. Do you start to understand what I am driving at here?

To make what I am saying absolutely clear, and to use my suggested dimensions (open to variation if desired or necessary)-
Start at one end with a 565 deep cabinet with a spacer behind it of 15mm. I use small spacers behind each cabinet side because sometimes I can get a straighter line by having say 15mm one side and 14 or 16 the other. 
Then position the next cabinet or two and fix those to the wall temporarily with spacers as required. Perhaps now there will be a gap for an integrated dishwasher. Continue the other side until all the cabinets have been positioned. If the end cabinet shows then you will have made that side deeper and be able to scribe it as required. Use a stringline to check that all the cabinets are in line, then fix to the wall using whatever spacers are required. 
I often find that the spacers will vary between 15mm and nothing, I might even have to cut a bit off a cabinet if the wall is very bad, but this way I have 15mm margin before I need to get a saw out

I don't think this argument is going to go anywhere very much, we've each made our points but I will repeat for the benefit of other readers that this technique has been tried and tested over many sucessful installlations, all of which included appliances (mostly Bosch, Siemens and Neff) and the fact that you don't like it doesn't stop it being valid

As long as your riposte doesn't reiterate that the technique doesn't work then I won't reply again

John


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## Scrit

johnelliott":zm095k1g said:


> Well, if you think about it, you will remember that I said that the cabinets were spaced out 15mm. 15mm plus (in the case I described but one that is easily modified) 565mm is 580mm. Do you start to understand what I am driving at here?


Yes, that you don't see the need to take into account standard worktop depths because you use custom width ones.. But that isn't the case for most kitchens. Let's face it John there's more than one way to skin a cat and each installation is different. The original question was, however, about upper cabinets, so maybe we should get back on topic?.......

Scrit


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## johnelliott

Scrit":3glx7u8p said:


> Yes, that you don't see the need to take into account standard worktop depths because you use custom width ones



This will be the third time that I have told you that _the dimensions can be varied to suit the circumstances_. I did a kitchen with a standard worktop about a year ago. I decided to set the back of the cabinet further back (normally I set the 6mm ply back 50mm in from the back edge. IIRC I set them at approx 30mm instead so as to preserve the 500mm minimum depth inside the cabinet, and made the units shallower to suit. The worktop was Axiom at approx 598mm deep

I really can't understand why you are so dertermined to prove me wrong on this issue. I'm not wrong, the technique works.

I'm happy to get back on topic now that I've explained that point to you

Jon


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## orangetlh

hi Roger, im thinking more along the line of bespoke kitchens where you can match it all up. I supose if you took a piece to a polisher they might be able to match the colour and finish.

Jason, the MDF sits inside a rebate on the back edge of the bullnose so no edges are seen. Because of the 15mm gap that the soffit has you can put recessed LV spot lights into the MDF and a transformer if you get a slim one, although we tend to try and keep them on top of the units for easy access.


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## sean_in_limerick

Ok Guys - thanks everyone for their input - an update on my kitchen. 

The design is now complete - i do all my designs on autocad at a 1:1 scale, inluding all cutting lists so i am confident that my units will fit ( i could post some images if anyone is interested). 

At this stage i have tested the hinges that i am going to use, i have pre-bought the sink unit and oven, along with 2 lazy-susan systems for 2 corner base units - and dimensioned my cabinets based on these. I will be using 19mm melamine chipboard - which unfortunately i can only source locally as 8*4 sheets - so storage is definitely a problem. The kitchen will be a traditional raised-panel door/drawer construction with face-frames, all done in Red Oak. - i am yet to decide on what materials to use for the drawer boxes - perhaps i will try oak, but maybe not - depends on time really. 

I will be ripping out an existing kitchen and doing the install probably in stages because i just don't have the room to store full cabinets. The oak has arrived and is sitting for the last couple of weeks at the house. I have broke the the build into 5 different areas and i will do each to completion and install them when they are finished. Starting with the face frames, then the doors/drawer fronts and finally the cabinets themselves (again the order is so that i will only have the fully build cabinets at the end. I will hang the doors and fit the drawers (but not the drawer fronts in case of movement in the cases prior to the install - the doors will have adjustable hinges) prior to the install. Any show faces of the cabinets will be covered with panels that i will scribe as necessary to fit. 

I could not source 6mm material for the backs anywhere - it's just not done here in the midwest area of Ireland - but i think i will be ok with 3mm material as the face frames will keep the cabinets square and i will add some bracing at the backs as well from 19mm material. 

I will be using the blum cabinet hangers as discussed earlier in the thread - these worked really well on a test unit that i did for my workshop and i also tested the bluemotion drawer slides in a garage project. 

We are still undecided on the countertop - i have a drawing that i will be circulating to local worktop suppliers for granite - but this will probably work out too expensive - i have also toyed with the idea of a wooden worktop - but i'm not sure i trust the stability of wood around moisture - possibly we will go with the laminated chipboard. 

I have deliberately left an inch or so of room at the back of every cabinet to ensure i can install them straight regardless of the condition of the walls - i have some concerns on installing the upper units but i have had lots of feedback on this from people on this forum - i will worry about this more when the time comes. 

Thanks everyone for helping get me this far - and please continue to be free with advice and tips. 

Regards, 

Sean


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## RogerS

Sean - re choice of worktop...Have you seen this thread?


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## sean_in_limerick

thanks - just read it. It has pretty much made my mind up about the wooden worktop, i'm sure some people can make it work but we have 2 children under 2 and don't have time to be fastidious on cleaning immediately after use. I will post a picture of my worktops and perhaps we can debate what the best material might be.

Sean


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## Scrit

Hi Sean



sean_in_limerick":3txf1i9y said:


> I could not source 6mm material for the backs anywhere - it's just not done here in the midwest area of Ireland - but i think I will be ok with 3mm material as the face frames will keep the cabinets square and i will add some bracing at the backs as well from 19mm material.


It's a pity that you can't get thicker stuff. 3mm is awfully thin and will tend to belly-out over time as well as being prone to popping out of its' grooves if given a good clout with a frying pan or the like. Have you thought about going the other way and using 19mm carcass material for the backs? After all you'll have those 8 x 4 sheets.....



sean_in_limerick":3txf1i9y said:


> ....I have also toyed with the idea of a wooden worktop - but I'm not sure I trust the stability of wood around moisture - possibly we will go with the laminated chipboard.


Well I still like solid wood tops, despite my comments elsewhere. But they do require a bit of work

Scrit


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## engineer one

sean, 
glad you are moving forward,
just one point as i understand it one normally fits the face frame to the
cabinet rather than the other way round, since the reason for the face
frame is to hide imperfections amongst other things.

maybe you should think that through again.
paul :wink:


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## sean_in_limerick

just one point as i understand it one normally fits the face frame to the 
cabinet rather than the other way round, since the reason for the face 
frame is to hide imperfections amongst other things. 

Paul -> Probably a misunderstanding here - the face frame will certainly be fixed to the face frame - i will be using pocket screws on all four sides of the cabinet - obviously from the outside so they won't show - which will make the cabinets extremely rigid (won't it?)? What are imperfections...  

Scrit-> i can get hold of 15mm stuff no problem - that actually might be the way to go now i think about it - it will save me having to groove the cabinet pieces for the 3mm back. I assume you would inset the back into the cabinet - could be a problem if the cabinet isn't perfectly square (gaps)? 

Sean


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## engineer one

sean, i appreciate that with your skill there will be few errors,
but the idea is to fit the face frames to the cabinet, not the other way
round, that is why i question your production method.

paul :wink:


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## Scrit

sean_in_limerick":2x3wqaep said:


> Scrit-> I can get hold of 15mm stuff no problem - that actually might be the way to go now I think about it - it will save me having to groove the cabinet pieces for the 3mm back. I assume you would inset the back into the cabinet - could be a problem if the cabinet isn't perfectly square (gaps)?


If you rebate the back that will hide any imperfecions - in addition the back can then be used to pull the carcass dead square and its' rigidity will be increased no end.

A couple of extra points to consider - whenever I've taken old cabinets out almost every time there is water damage to the carcasses in the vicinity of the sink, so make sure that you seal any exposed edges- it needn't be pretty as it will never be seen, so a smear of silicone will do the job. Secondly sink cabinets generally have loads of pipework behind them, so in that case think about running a small cross section batter (say 1 x 1in) across the bottom and up the sides and making the back so that it can be inserted and removed from the front of the cab - in two pieces if necessary - you may ony see the logic of that approach in 5 years time when you have to deal with a leak behind the carcass......

Scrit


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## sean_in_limerick

Paul-> i am missing your point i think - i now think you are wondering on why i am doing the face frames first? If so, then the reason i do it this way is that i won't have bulky cabinets all over the place - the complete dimensions of the face frames and cabinets is already in the computer and i just print out what i need for each unit - it doesn't matter what order i make them as long as i cut accurately to the drawing, and face frames are easier to store than cabinets. I won't be measuring the face frames and then building cabinets to match! 

Scrit-> Good points regarding the sink unit, and you are dead right regarding the water damage to the existing units - they are a mess - i will build in some access panel and seal the edges as you suggest. 

Sean


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## engineer one

trust me sean, s**t happens, and it is easier and actually more
accurate to do it the other way round, but i guess like us all,
you will only find out after you have done it. :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## sean_in_limerick

that hurts - i've always done it this way - i built a unit for my workshop recently that had a face frame that spanned a stack of drawers, a double door cabinet and another drawer unit. I built the face frame first, then drawer fronts, doors and end panels and finally the cabinets. Generally with 50mm wide face frames there is a little wiggle room and i wouldn't want to make a single face frame any wider but it fitted together great - although i have to admit to being a little concerned before i put it together... but of course you are right sh*t does happen but none of my face frames are so large that it would bankrupt me to have to rebuild them - and nobody would know but me...


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## engineer one

hey mate you have to do it the way that works for you, and 
past success is not a guide to the future as the institutions who
supposedly look after your money say.

i did not realise that you had done it that way in the past, :twisted: 

i was just pointing out that the method was i understood to
build the frames to fit the cabinets rather than the other way round.

certainly that seems to be the way all the american mags suggest
you do it, but then what do they know??? :
paul :wink:


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## johnelliott

Sean, making the face frames first is fine. As you say, they will be made accurately and have already been modelled in Autocad to ensure that they are correct.
In any case if you make the styles and rail wide enouigh you can always tale a little bit off to trim them. When I used to do face frame kitchens I deliberately made the face frames a little bit too wide, fixed them to the carcases and then trimmed them flush. Mind you, I used to make a seperate face frame for each carcase. That made it easier to incorporate an integrated dischwasher

Have you considered birch plywood for the cabinets? It looks good when it's varnished and isn't prone to water damage the way MFC is.

I think you are right to go with conventional laminated worktops, you can always replace them with granite at some point in the future

John


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## sean_in_limerick

Thanks John - i did indeed consider birch plywood - but i can't source is easily - and where i can it's more than twice the price of the MFC. How did you trim the face frames once they are attached to the cabinet? - i'm guessing a hand saw?
Sean


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## johnelliott

I actually used a bearing guided cutter in a router. The technique was to lie the cabinet on its back, to mount the router on a board that was long enough to reach across the cabinet, then rest the board across the face frame so that the router is at one end, with the bearing resting on the side of the cabinet and then trim the face frame flush to the cabinet.

Obviously it would be good if the cabinet sides are nice and straight, something which is taken care of when the faced frame is fitted

No need to trim the bottom of the face frame,of course, because that is flush with the_ inside_ of the base of the cabinet

John


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## sean_in_limerick

good advice - thanks John


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## johnelliott

I'll add to the above that having trimmed the faceframe edges flush with their cabinets I then, inspired by an MFI kitchen I'd seen, beaded the edges with a trend bearing guided beading cutter. When the cabinets were butted up together all you could see was two adjacent beads, and no one could see that the two frames were in fact separate. Carefull choice of wood for the frames enhanced the illusion.
I'll post some pics if I can remember how to

So where abouts in Limerick are you? I used to spend time in Lahinch in Co Clare, so often passed through Limerick. Long time ago, though.

John


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## johnelliott

Here's a pic of what I referred to above

Where you see the two vertical beads is where the two face frames join. I went to a lot of trouble with this kitchen, the grain matches because they were cut from the same piece. I don't think I'll be going to that much trouble again.

John


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## sean_in_limerick

very nice - did the beads make the fitting of the mating face frames easier?


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## johnelliott

sean_in_limerick":3uz8ppb4 said:


> very nice - did the beads make the fitting of the mating face frames easier?



Not so much easier,as to hide the join which otherwise would have been a bit obvious. It also meant that when fitting the cabinets I didn't _have_ to get the front edges of the cabinets absolutely perfectly flush with each other, though of course I did

John


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## sean_in_limerick

Hi everyone - another couple of questions for the experts.

What do you make the drawer boxes out of? I have considered oak and through dovetailing the front with grooves for the back - but this is a lot of work and very wasteful of the oak, as i would want the drawer sides to be probably only 1/2" thick - i have raised-panel type false fronts. What are the other options?

What kind of finish is good for a kitchen - i was going to use Danish Oil, but i would like to hear of peoples experiences of finishes in kitchens - i have no access to spray equipment.

I have some of the doors and panels done and will be putting together the carcases in the next week or so - i will post some work in progress pictures as soon as i get a new camera.

thanks as always,

Sean


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## George_N

What about birch ply for your drawer boxes? Very stable and you can either leave the edges to show the ply or add an oak edging to match your false fronts. You could either use a drawer lock router bit (if you have a router table...see Scrit's description in another thread) or just rebates in the sides and use glue and some brads :norm: to hold them together.


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## johnelliott

Danish oil is excellent. This process was used on the kitchen pictured above-
Two coats is plenty. First coat brush it on liberally, then wipe off and let it dry. Then denib with for instance grey scotchbrite or (what we use) a stanley knife blade held vertically and drawn gently over the surface. 
Then apply second coat , won't need anything like so much, then blade it off, then stop. STOP. No further coats are necessary, and will only lie on top of the already adequate finish.
NO WAX, unless your sanding has been absolutely perfect, the shine will make any tiny scratches very obvious.
That's all you need for a hardwood kitchen
The above only applies to Danish Oil (we use the Coloron brand)

John


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## engineer one

very personal thoughts on drawers in kitchens.

most store bought ones tend to have flimsy bottoms.

so i would prefer to have drawers with 18mm thickness 
because in many cases they will carry heavy loads like 
pans and crockery etc.

there is something to be said for the NK system Steve Maskery 
recently built on his chest featured in GWW. You could even make
your own full extension runners out of wood.

as mentioned before there is much to be said for having the drawers 
white internally, so maybe 15mm mdc for the sides and back, with a false front out of oak.

hope this helps
paul :wink:


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## Scrit

sean_in_limerick":1kw8hadn said:


> What do you make the drawer boxes out of? I have considered oak and through dovetailing the front with grooves for the back - but this is a lot of work and very wasteful of the oak, as i would want the drawer sides to be probably only 1/2" thick - i have raised-panel type false fronts. What are the other options?


What type of drawers/doors are you going for, overlaid or inset? Do you want an _absolutely_ traditional drawer?

If you are looking for a very traditional kitchen then you're talking dovetailed pine drawer boxes with an applied front, either overlaid (easier) or inset - much more work as the drawer/door reveals need to be identical throughout the kitchen to avoid it looking wrong. Through dovetails in drawers will impose a striking visual element on the design. They will tend to draw the eye and to make them work in an entire kitchen I feel you'll need to have a very consistent look - simple design with few finicky features and say a single drawerline all round to avoid it looking too busy. In a single cabinet the through dovetail works - in a large structure such as a kitchen I feel it might become oppressive.

A more "modern" approach might be to use 12mm birch plywood or 12mm beech with a 6 to 8mm birch ply bottom (remember to use muntins on wide drawers). This produces a very serviceable drawer box, especially if an NK runner (updated tradotional hardwood slide) or Blum runners are used. 

For the ultimate in convenience, however, I doubt that you can beat the soft-close metal drawers made by Blum, Grass, etc although the mechanisms are available for use with wooden drawers.



sean_in_limerick":1kw8hadn said:


> What kind of finish is good for a kitchen - I was going to use Danish Oil, but I would like to hear of peoples experiences of finishes in kitchens - I have no access to spray equipment.


Danish oil is easy to apply and easily repairable. Not brilliantly durable, however. So it will do the job if you are prepared to look after it. An alternative might be something like Dulux Diamond Glaze - technically a floor finish (water-based acrylic) but very durable and can be brushed on. It isn't cheap, but you do get what you pay for.

Scrit


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## Scrit

engineer one":37tdapdu said:


> very personal thoughts on drawers in kitchens...... most store bought ones tend to have flimsy bottoms...... so I would prefer to have drawers with 18mm thickness because in many cases they will carry heavy loads like pans and crockery etc.


Traditionally crockery and pots and pans were stored in cupboards and the drawers were used for cutlery, tea towels, etc and so needed to carry much less weight. In a modern shallow drawer 8mm MFC is more than adequate (and twice as thick as the cheap stuff used by some kitchen makers), but a traditional drawer would always have had at least one or more fore-to-aft muntins added to give extra strength even wiyh a thin bottom



engineer one":37tdapdu said:


> as mentioned before there is much to be said for having the drawers white internally, so maybe 15mm MFC for the sides and back, with a false front out of oak.


I've made drawers this way for furniture and unless you can apply thick PVC edging (2 to 3mm thick) and round-off the arrisses my feeling is that they don't have a "quality" feel to them, although they are perfectly serviceable. They do have the advantage of being "wipe clean", especially if rounded corner fillets are incorporated (Blum do those), but I'd still go for the factory-made metal drawers over this style. Personal choice

Scrit


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## engineer one

ah the differences in kitchen design, no wonder so many companies
can make them.

i agree that traditionally pots and pans are put in cupboards
but as you get to have more senior moments, there are certain 
values to having these items accessible in drawers.

my recent experiences of caring for my parents before they died 
made me much more aware of the practicalities of kitchen design.
and in particular men use the kitchen in a different way from women.
and we design them??? :twisted: :? 

i agree that mfc does not look as nice as it might, and some of
the drawer sides from manufacturers could be used, and maybe 
there is a compromise, but again do not ignore the look of the 
interior being light and airy, it really does make a difference in 
use. 

also if you have a young family it is easier to find things,
but then remember the safety features like door locks, and finger 
traps, the ikea rubber ones are really neat, and they work well.

it is certainly important to look for both looks and also 
practicality, remember you can always hide drawers behind 
doors, and give them low fronts like they used to in 
mens clothes shops so you can see what is there. :twisted: 

paul :wink:


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## sean_in_limerick

Drawer style is full-overlay (for my sanity) - i have noticed in the past that cutting through dovetails on pine can lead to chipping (regardless of how sharp my chisel is!) - it probably is too much work for DT's anyway - there are 11 drawers in all. I will be using the Blum - undermounting full extension slides with the soft-close. You guys have much better access to plywood thicknesses than i do. I can get birch ply, but only 15mm thick, maybe 18mm. I had considered MFC drawer boxes but i'm sure there has to be a better material...


----------



## Scrit

Sean

I feel that 15mm is a bit "chunky", 10mm seems a tad thin, so 12mm is just right to my mind and is what the pre-manufactured beech drawer kits seem to use. Have you thought about buying-in pre-made beech/plywood drawer boxes or drawer side section? It might not be "hand made" but they'd still be wooden. If you are starting with 1in nominal oak then you'll not get 2 x 12mm sides it if it by ripping which seems a waste. The other possibilty might be to use a knot-free pine, alder if you can get that as it is generally clear of knots, but then your sides and back would probably need to go up to about 19 or even 22mm. Quickest joint I can think of is the corner lock joint which will do the front corners. Backs are then set into a housing and are slightly lower than the sides ending at the groove for the bottom (or the groove in the drawer slip) so the bottoms can be slid in and nailed through into the back with one or two tacks or gimp pins. This won't work with MFC, though. For MFC drawers you'll need to biscuit or preferably dowel and glue the front panels on - with the fronts _inside_ the sides to take the extra strain of opening.











The back is glued in place and "dovetail pinned" through the sides (MFC: glue only). Punch the pins under with a nail set and fill with Brummer stopping






_*Above: Typical muntin section with cut-away at front, used for extra support in bottoms of wide drawers. Generally hardwood*_

Scrit


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## johnelliott

sean_in_limerick":1ca3bf8u said:


> I will be using the Blum - undermounting full extension slides with the soft-close. You guys have much better access to plywood thicknesses than i do. I can get birch ply, but only 15mm thick, maybe 18mm. I had considered MFC drawer boxes but i'm sure there has to be a better material...



But 15mm is exactly what you need with these runners! It's what they are designed for. This is because the drawer side sits in the space between the carcase side and the flat part of the runner that the drawer sits on, and that distance is set by the design of the runner.

If you are using a false front (which is a good idea because you can fit the drawer front after you've got the door below it fitted and adjusted, and get it spot on) then consider pocket screws as a joining system. The front will hide the pocket holes at the front, and someone would have to take the whole drawer out to see the holes at the back.
6.5mm ply set in groves along the sides, and screwed tot he underside of the front and back will be plenty strong enough unless severe abuse is anticipated

John


----------



## Scrit

johnelliott":1x9mdy5n said:


> But 15mm is exactly what you need with these runners! It's what they are designed for. This is because the drawer side sits in the space between the carcase side and the flat part of the runner that the drawer sits on, and that distance is set by the design of the runner.


I assume that we're talking Blumotion on Tandem Plus drawer runners in which case the backs of the drawers need to be drilled for the location "hooks" but other than that the main specification quoted in Blum's own technical data sheets just calls for a drawert side 16mm thick or less:






Your suppliers may have told you 15mm, but they weren't right. Summer before last we cranked out a few hundred drawers with Tandem Plus on 12mm steamed beech (before we managed to offload the job onto another mug), so I know it works.

The key point is that there is a gap of 5mm between the drawer side and the carcass side in a frameless cabinet. In a face frame cabinet like Sean's I'd simply adjust the thickness of the battons that will be fixed on the carcass sides to take the runners.

Scrit


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## johnelliott

Scrit":1rksiskl said:


> Your suppliers may have told you 15mm, but they weren't right.



Anything much less than 15mm isn't really ideal for pocket screws but 15mm is fine, both for the screws and for the drawer runners. I use these drawer runners every day, and all my drawers are made from 15mm birch ply, and they work perfectly and look good

John

Modedit Newbie_Neil


----------



## Scrit

johnelliott":1lvaoamg said:


> Anything much less than 15mm isn't really ideal for pocket screws but 15mm is fine, both for the screws and for the drawer runners.


Ah, that's the answer! I don't make drawer boxes with pocket hole screws so slightly different for me then.

Scrit


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## sean_in_limerick

Thanks for all the comments and recommendations. I have put a lot of time and effort into the design of the kitchen, but for some reason neglected the drawer cases - i am now veering towards pine, dovetailed at the front, and rebated at the back. It's really not that many drawers to do and i will be doing them in stages anyway. I think the mitre-lock approach is too finicky to get right and i am not sure as to how strong it is. My preference is to avoid butt-joints at the front of the case, which counts out pocket-holes and biscuits. 

Any further thoughts on a finish? 

Sean


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## engineer one

Pocket screws are designed to be used in situations where basically what
they hold together does not undergo daily movement and stress. i know
they were used in the old days for holding rail on tables, and even supporting the m/t joints made on these old factory made items,
but the stresses in opening and closing a drawer and the overall hanging
stresses make them long term not the correct engineering solution to a 
woodworking joint.

modern materials allow us to consider different kinds of fixings, but the specifics of joining a drawer are simple.

at the front, you need the sides to wrap the front in one way or another to overcome the desire to spread, hence dovetails or the mitre lock 
router system, or even the rebated front, so that the pulling on the front handle transfers the load down the sides, rather than tending to spring the front. in the seventies many kitchens were factory made with corner
fixings of a kind of plastic, but the stresses were placed in such a way 
that the fronts popped off after quite a short time, because there was no
way of holding the sides in with the front. i believe that pocket screws 
have the same problem, no matter how successful they seem in the short
term. this may seem a criticism, but it is more importantly an engineering
fact.

at the rear the back can be fixed in many way, as the stresses are
aimed in different ways, and can be compensated by fixing the 
bottom to the rear cross member. in addition, using undermount 
drawer slides allows for some interesting variations.

it is certainly easier to make the drawers with a false front, since it ensures that the drawers can be set up properly inside the carcase, and
the front overhang can be made the same by packing and blocking, where as when you make full fronts, you have more problems with adjusting the
depth stops.

as for the finish, you should think about who is going to use the kitchen,
and then think very hard about using one or other of the kitchen floor finishes, after perhaps staining the units if you want or need to.

Johnson Kleer is water soluble and quite hard wearing, but i would prefer that on the front and sides of the units an acrylic product like diamond
glaze, was used because it provides heat and water protection.

on the tops it depends upon the surface, but if wood, then there is something to be said for vegetable oils being used. what you do need
to consider is that you need at least one or two areas where you can
put hot and or freezing plates or items, maybe those asda granite plates that were shown elsewhere on the media cabinet.

anyway you seem to be making good progess and hope it gives you what
you and swmbo want. it will have saved you some serious dosh though.

good luck

paul :wink:

Modedit Newbie_Neil


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## johnelliott

engineer one":1xlw9hkr said:


> Pocket screws are designed to be used in situations where basically what
> they hold together does not undergo daily movement and stress. i know
> they were used in the old days for holding rail on tables, and even supporting the m/t joints made on these old factory made items,
> but the stresses in opening and closing a drawer and the overall hanging
> stresses make them long term not the correct engineering solution to a
> woodworking joint.



Sean specifically mentioned Blum undermount runners. I use them as well. I don't have equipment sensitive enough to measure the opening force on one of the drawers but I would guess it to be well under 1kg, probably under 100g.

Pocket screws used in a drawer making application are inserted from the front (or back) piece into the drawer sides. This means the opening stress is at right angles to the screw, and for the screw to fail it would need to be sheared. I don't have equipment top measure how much force would be needed to break (3) pocket screws in shear, but I should imagine that it would be a lot.

John

Modedit Newbie_Neil


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## Scrit

sean_in_limerick":1d76uk46 said:


> Thanks for all the comments and recommendations. I have put a lot of time and effort into the design of the kitchen, but for some reason neglected the drawer cases - i am now veering towards pine, dovetailed at the front, and rebated at the back. It's really not that many drawers to do and i will be doing them in stages anyway. I think the mitre-lock approach is too finicky to get right and i am not sure as to how strong it is. My preference is to avoid butt-joints at the front of the case, which counts out pocket-holes and biscuits.
> 
> Any further thoughts on a finish?
> 
> Sean


Hi Sean

I think the front dovetails should work well and give you that extra "quality" look when you open the drawers. I agree that it's probably less important at the back but how were you intending to fix the back into the rebate? Pins or screws? The housed back used in traditional drawers has a definite strength advantage but may be a little fussy to use with the Blum runners.

I believe that traditionally pine kitchen drawers were left unfinished. I've seen this in very old kitchen dressers but I don't really think it's practical in a modern kitchen. I'm unhappy with oils because some can leave an overpowering smell. Varnishes will crack with age, so I'd prefer to use something like a thin coat of water-based acrylic (Dulux Diamond Glaze), but I'd like to hear if anyone has had success with waxes at all.

Scrit


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## Newbie_Neil

Gentlemen

This thread will not be allowed to degenerate into a series of personal attacks.

I have amended and/or deleted posts.

PLEASE STOP NOW.

Thanks
Neil in Moderator Mode


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## sean_in_limerick

Scrit - i would probably glue and pin the back - into a routed 'dado' (as our American friends call them.) I don't think i have to worry about this joint coming apart,as all the stress is in the front to back direction. 

I have never really had much success with brush-on finishes and this is why i have considered using Danish Oil as it is foolproof to get on without smears or runs - but i would welcome feedback on this. 

Another question popped into my head over the weekend while i was sanding up the drawer fonts. These are (like the doors) a raised panel design with the raised panel floating. My concern is if i attach the drawer box to the panel (probably unavoidable in my design), how might i stop the the drawer front moving over time (as i have left a bit of expansion room all around the panel)? Is this a bad design for drawer fronts? Is it ok to use a bit of glue, just to hold the panel in place? 

Thanks as always, 

Sean


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## DaveL

sean_in_limerick":132wyd9x said:


> Another question popped into my head over the weekend while i was sanding up the drawer fonts. These are (like the doors) a raised panel design with the raised panel floating. My concern is if i attach the drawer box to the panel (probably unavoidable in my design), how might i stop the the drawer front moving over time (as i have left a bit of expansion room all around the panel)? Is this a bad design for drawer fronts? Is it ok to use a bit of glue, just to hold the panel in place?


One solution from across the pond are Space Balls (nothing like the Mel Brooks movie) I have not used them but am thinking of trying to get some. I have heard of making an equivalent by using a bead of silicon sealer and cutting it into 1/4" lengths.


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## Scrit

The other stuff readily available is the "beads" of sticky polyurethane sold by motor factors, etc for use in attaching car trim panels. Even though I'cve used this stuff (Mine came from Wurth) I'm still not sure how long it will last.

Scrit


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## sean_in_limerick

Is seems to take forever, but the kitchen is moving along - here are some http://www.mediamax.com/Switchboard...r&SGUID=3c79f57e-a30c-4abc-b5af-0cb11d890a05#
photos of the first of the kitchen units - been busy at home and at work so progess if painfully slow.

how do you insert photos into a message?

Cheers,

Sean


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## engineer one

looking good sean, patience my man it will work well
=D> 
paul :wink:


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## MikeW

Hi Sean--looks good!

You would insert the path to the picture and enclose it with the img tags by highlighting the path to the picture itself and not the photo album, and once it is highlighted, click the Img button above the edit box when compsing your message.

The resultant code would look like this:



Code:


[img]http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/october_2006_049.jpg[/img]


And the result is your image:







Note that your pictures are 2k pixels wide, so you need to have a smaller version in your album to link to so people do not need to scroll to read the message.

This is one of your images which I downloaded the 640 pixel wide version and placed on my web site to demonstrate. I'll leave it there as long as you would like or take it down if you ask me to.

Take care, Mike


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## sean_in_limerick

thanks Mike - could you leave it there until i get a chance to master this?


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## George_N

Hi Sean,
it's good to see how you are getting on. Your doors look great. As a fellow DIY kitchen builder I can certainly sympathise with how frustratingly slowly things seem to progress at times. Keep up the good work and keep posting progress shots.


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## RogerS

Hi Sean...looking good so far.

re photo's....make sure that you've shrunk their size before you insert them using the image tag. i noticed that three of yours in your photobucket are huge. 30-60kb are fine. You can usually drop the resolution down on your camera if you aren't able to resize using your computer.


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## MikeW

Absolutely, Sean.

Take care, Mike


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## sean_in_limerick

Hi Guys, 
Been a while, it's a busy time for me - the kitchen progresses, slowly...

Here is a link to some of the latest photos.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/forest_vie ... 455262172/

I will be taking a few weeks off in February/March, i would hope to finish all of the units then.

Cheers,

Sean[/img]


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## Scrit

Hi Sean

Nice to see it all coming along. What does SWMBO think (apart from the usual about how long it all takes, that is)?

Scrit


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## Paul Chapman

Looking good, Sean.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## paulm

You're getting there Sean !

Looks great. Will be so satisfying when you've got it all finished.

Keep it up, and keep posting the pics !

Cheers, Paul.


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## dedee

Sean,
I take my hat off to you for sticking with this and producing such a wonderful looking kitchen. 

We are thinking of replacing ours but I cannot imagine I'd have the level of patience that you have shown to see it through.

Andy


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## sean_in_limerick

It does indeed take patience, but we both knew it would take a while - so we were a little prepared.

SWMBO is taking it very well - of course i have now stopped buyying 'toys' and i am producing something other than sawdust!

Thanks for the kind replies.


Sean


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## wrightclan

Looking good. Keep it up, you may finish before I do.  



sean_in_limerick":b2bhht9f said:


> ...i have now stopped buyying 'toys' ...
> 
> 
> Sean



You think so. :lol: 

Brad


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## sean_in_limerick

for now of course....


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## sean_in_limerick

Hi All,
A little more progress on the kitchen, i now have all the carcases in place and just  need to go around and build the doors, drawer fronts and face frames - starting to see the end of it now.

Pictures are still at 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/forest_vie ... 455262172/

Sean


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## Lord Nibbo

sean_in_limerick":1zv0r6xf said:


> Hi All,
> A little more progress on the kitchen, i now have all the carcases in place and just  need to go around and build the doors, drawer fronts and face frames - starting to see the end of it now.
> 
> Pictures are still at
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/forest_vie ... 455262172/
> 
> Sean


It's looking very good sean, infact very very good. we must see pics when tiled and the work tops are on.  \/


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## sean_in_limerick

Thanks - the countertop is causing me headaches - the area jutting out is going to be a 'breakfast bar' area - and i am thinking of doing this out of wood - the area where the drawers are missing is the problem - we couldn't justify the cost of granite worktops (quotes are around 4 thousand euro - which is more than what we have spent on the kitchen!) - can anyone suggest how to fill the area nearly around this unit? It is about 32 inches deep and it has spaces either side that need to be covered with (probably) formica worktops - how can this be done neatly?

My own thoughts are that maybe i will use a breakfast bar sized counter top to give me the extra depth and perhaps an oak trim around the countertop to hide the chipboard edges after i cut it to fit the openings either side of this area.

Any suggestions would be very welcome.

Sean


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## engineer one

how about looking for granite tiles, either new or second hand to go round the outside??

actually you could also use concrete around the area, can be made to look smooth and attractive. some pictures have appeared in Fine Homebuilding in the past, may well be on the web site for Taunton.

paul :wink:


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## sean_in_limerick

Hi All
Everything is still running, i had a pretty bad car accident lately so things have been a bit slow - but a few bits have been done as i have been stuck at home for the last 6 weeks with nothing to do except look at my unfinished kitchen! The photos are still at http://www.flickr.com/photos/forest_vie ... 455262172/

I now only have a couple more left to finish, before i start thinking about getting the countertop and preparing the kitchen for the install (electricals and plumbing, painting etc). There is a breakfast-bar area in the kitchen which i am going to panel at the back, and put an angled wrap-around panel on the end ( 2 45degree pieces on either side of a flat panel in the center. The idea is that it will break up the square edge of the breakfast bar as it panels around it. The question i have is what is the best way to attach panels to the carcasses? I obviously don't want to be running screws through oak panels from the front side into the chipboard carcasses and i have a concern that if i simply run screws into the oak from the inside won't there be a danger of the wood splitting over time as it expands and contracts? As you can see from the photos's lots of these panels must be fitted - all suggestions welcome.

Sean


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## George_N

Hi Sean, sorry to hear about the accident...6 weeks off makes it sound like a bad one. Glad to hear that you are on the mend now though.

I think that the usual method of fixing decorative end panels etc. is to screw them on from the inside of the cabinet.


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## sean_in_limerick

thanks George, my concern with screwing from the inside is cracking of the panels over time as the screws will prevent them from moving with the seasons...

The accident was a nasty one, a fractured skull and damaged hands, but i am nicely on the mend now, just a bit of residual whiplash in the back and a few headaches - i will be back at work in the next week or two i think.


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## engineer one

maybe i am wrong sean, but is it worth thinking about false backs??

maybe you could clip the panels on the back attached to double brackets.

good to hear you are improving. getting hurts a b isn't it??

paul :wink:


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## sean_in_limerick

what do you mean by double brackets Paul?


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## engineer one

ok sean, what i mean is that you have a bracket that fixes to the back panel, and one on the unit. they slide into each other.

think about your fingers interlocking, and that is basically how it works.

will see what i can find.
paul :wink:


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## Scrit

Hafele do a pop-on dowel connector system reference 267.85.030 or 267.20.700 which will do the job. Or what about double-sided foam tape (the 3M industrial stuff used in car body shops, etc) . That stuff sticks like, well I'm sure you know what, but allows some movement, too. Also what about rare earth magnets?

If you are screwing surely the simple solution would be to drill a hole larger than the screw thread and use round head screws sitting on a washer



sean_in_limerick":4zpir2w2 said:


> what do you mean by double brackets Paul?


French cleats, Paul?

Scrit


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## engineer one

i wondered about wooden french cleats scrit but thought they might be too thick. :roll: 


what i was thinking about was those bed cleats. never happy with them on a bed, where they are often used to connect the side rails to a headboard, but where there is no movement they seem to have value cause you could just clip them on and off. :? 

paul :wink:


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## sean_in_limerick

thanks guys, - i will probably screw the panels in place, but i will get hold of the hafele wotzits to have a look at them.

Sean


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## sean_in_limerick

Hi All, 
Still going, everything is now built and i will be doing the fixing this week. This involves a bit of plumbing for the sink/dishwasher, a gas pipe in the floor and chasing electric cables all around the kitchen. I now have to think more about countertops. We got a quote for granite and it was more than what i have shelled-out already on all the oak and tools! So we will be putting in a formica (or whatever the chipboard based on is called). Having said that i want to do the best job possibe, and i have been looking at the router jigs for tightening joints together using the bolts recessed into them. Does anybody know of an silly person's guide to doing this? Also they seem to come in 2 flavours, 600 and 900 mm, what is the reasoning behind this? I have a breakfast bar that will be connected at right angles to a normal 650mm countertop (well i will if i can source it) - I also have some angled areas that will require shaping with a jigsaw and then covering with that iron-on covering stuff. Any experience or advice that people would like to share would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Sean


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## DaveL

Sean,
The 600 and 900mm is the size of the biggest work top the jig can be used on.

I have only cut one joint and the best instructions I know of are on page that Ray (Argee) one of our members has posted here.


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## sean_in_limerick

brilliant! Just what i was looking for


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## MooreToolsPlease

Whenever I fit worktops, I always cut the female part of the joint first.
Once that is cut I lay it in place, then lay the worktop to receive the male part over the top. 
I then mark to the underside/top side (depending on whether it is a left or right hand joint) where the female joint is, then cut to this line allowing for guide pin clearances, usually 9mm.
By doing this it will still wit well if the walls are slightly out of square.
Hope this is of some help to you.


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## sean_in_limerick

HI again,
I have the trend router worktop jig and have been trying to sort our what i will have to do (worktops arrive in a couple of days time). I have been looking at the instruction book available online at: http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/library ... 0%20v2.pdf

careful this is a 2MByte file, but i'm sure you have all seen it before. I have a right-hand peninsula joint (90degee right hand joint from Ray (Argee) page), i assume that i must turn the jig/template upside down, the trend booklet says that the label must be upwards, but the example appears to be a left hand joint , for the right hand joint is it simply a case of inverting the jig? Hope you can follow my ravings.

more_tools_please, i am still trying to get clear in my head what you are trying to tell me!

Thanks everyone.

Sean


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## MooreToolsPlease

Hi Sean, 
I thought that post waould be very confusing, asking myself now why i wrote it instead of doing a couple of sketches!
Anyways, here they are.
In this joint the right hand board that will receive the male joint needs to be cut from underneath. This is laid ontop of the female joint.
The female joint is cut first so that where the walls may be out of square this can be compensated for with the male joint.





Mark the top board directly from the board underneath.
when you come to route the joint, mark back 8.5mm from the lines and thats where the inside of your guide pin will be.




This is how the joint will look after cutting, and finally here it is in place.




I hope the images make it clearer the method I was trying to tell.[/img]


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## sean_in_limerick

WOW! Amazing the difference a picture makes! I will do it this way, does it matter how far out of square the walls are? Will the correction effect the fit of the joint? 

Just out of curiosity, what did you use for the drawing ? Sketchup? 

Thanks for both you time and expertise, 

Sean


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## Newbie_Neil

Hi Sean

Have a look here at Ray's site.

It's a great explanation.

Cheers
Neil


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## MooreToolsPlease

It was a quick drawing done on sketchup. Fantastic programme to use.
Looking at the instructions, its a maximum of 3degrees.
I have never gone to any length to measure the angle walls are out, just use this method as it is fool proof!


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## sean_in_limerick

thanks everyone - am i correct in saying that you always plunge into the laminate surface? I would have thought this, but the trend instructions say that a female cut is done laminate down, and a male cut laminate up?

Sean


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## MooreToolsPlease

It depends on the orientation of the boards.
I always start at the mitred part, and make sure the router is spinning into the laminate. so the piecethat you want to keep is on the right hand side of the cutter.


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## sean_in_limerick

Hi Matt, 
At the risk of sounding dense...
There's a mitre?

 

Sean


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## MooreToolsPlease

well the joint is commonly known as a masons mitre, 
the short angled part is at 45 degrees.


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## sean_in_limerick

thanks Matt, Googled mason's mitre - makes sense, the mitre is the postformed edge where the two pieces meet. 

Sorry to drag this on just a couple more questions.

If i cut the female piece first, which seems to be the conventional way of doing it, does it matter which way i have the laminate (on top or underneath), as long as for the male piece i reverse it?

If using the method described in these posts where i put the jointed female piece on top of the male piece and mark the curve - as a pencil mark is required it would be better to be writing on the underside, so that the pencil mark can be seen easily - this means having the laminate on top for the female cut.

I hope i have this right now! Thanks everyone for your patience.

Sean


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## sean_in_limerick

Hi everyone,
Happy new year! The project continues, it's largely complete should be done in the next couple of weeks and i will post photos. Sounds like a bizarre question but the final thing i need to do is put a shelf up and i after building an entire kitchen i am struggling to find the best way to do it. The shelf will be about 1.7m long and made from 50mm oak. It will be fixed into a concrete-block wall. i am going to make some brackets out of oak, laminating a couple of pieces together to make nice wide brackets with curves using the bandsaw. How are these typically used to fix to the wall and shelf? The shelf will be heavy so i need to take care of this. I have considered using normal steel L-brackets and hiding these with the brackets that i make, but i think the brackets themselves should be used - is this recommended? All ideas welcome, thanks for reading.

Sean


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## Chris Knight

Sean,
If the shelf really is to be 50mm thick(??), you might consider gluing some 12mm threaded rod into the wall and drilling holes in the shelf to mate. four or five of these should support a pretty good load.


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## Paul Chapman

Another way would be to use threaded rod with Rawlbolts. You should be able to drill into the concrete OK with an SDS drill. Slide the brackets over the rod and fix with a washer and nut, then fit a decorative plug to hide the fitting. I've fitted heavy beams to walls this way in the past and it's been successful.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Oryxdesign

Paul Chapman":1l1mvi7v said:


> Another way would be to use threaded rod with Rawlbolts. You should be able to drill into the concrete OK with an SDS drill. Slide the brackets over the rod and fix with a washer and nut, then fit a decorative plug to hide the fitting. I've fitted heavy beams to walls this way in the past and it's been successful.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



There is a bracket available from Hafele part number 283.33.910 which is designed for hidden shelves but this would be ideal for you.


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## sean_in_limerick

that's great, thanks for the info - can anyone order from this company or do you have to be trade?


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## tim

sean_in_limerick":327re91u said:


> that's great, thanks for the info - can anyone order from this company or do you have to be trade?



Technically you have to be trade but a letterhead ie your name and address on a piece of paper will get you an online account. You may need to exaggerate slightly your role ie property developer.

Cheers

Tim


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