# What type of glue for a workbench?



## bp122

Hi all

Thanks to some help from various sources, I am now rapidly approaching the time to start milling the timber for my workbench. 

I recently re-watched Matt Estlea's split top roubo build (that's what I'm going to be building) and he recommended Cascamite over normal PVA. So I had ordered a tub from Axminster as part of another order to qualify for free delivery. 

Of course after buying it I just went on the search to discover that people have had bad experiences with it recently and have moved to a few other options for "stressed" joints.

Considering I'm building a workbench, I'm fairly certain that thing is going to see some stress. So didn't want to make the wrong call before the biggest glue up of my life. 

Thoughts, recommendations, welcome.

Thanks in advance.
Bp


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## Sideways

I'm not a big user of cascamite. My dad was back in the day. He used it for all sorts and had a hanging balance in the shed for weighing it out; but he also used PVAs and when required a variety of industrial epoxy, urea formaldehyde and others. 
My limited experience of cascamite is that it can become brittle. For this reason it's not what I would choose for a workbench that will be planed on, etc and the joints subjected to shock and twisting forces.


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## bp122

Sideways said:


> I would choose for a workbench that will be planed on, etc and the joints subjected to shock and twisting forces.


See, that's exactly what my worry was.


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## Ttrees

Cascamite is worth consideration.
I have an axe handle which has a good section of a 5mm wide glue joint running the length of it.
Plenty of abuse it's got, so I'm a believer.
Not sure how well it holds up to outside or wet conditions compared to waterproof PVA.

Its an ash bench he has isn't it, ... can't see a fault with it.
One has to bear in mind that Roycotewood college, where he was a student, likely encourages as much good traditional methodology as possible.

I wonder if invisible joints can be made with it in all timbers.
Eager to see what others have to say, 
bearing in mind temperature being in a suitable range for a suitable period,
and enough clamps should one be faster setting, as one will likely use every clamp they've got, regardless of what glue used.

Eager to see some negatives, apart from the whole thing with the last issue with quality which was seemingly addressed, although I wouldn't be chancing it for a long time as I don't have the likes of Axminster to get it from.

So apart from a bit of mixin, what's wrong with it?
Seems most suitable for the frugal minded.


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## Ttrees

Can take a piccy of me aul axe handle, if that is of interest.
Doesn't seem brittle to me, although I've only half looked at the joint as it would need a good scraping to inspect.


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## bp122

Ttrees said:


> Cascamite is worth consideration.
> I have an axe handle which has a good section of a 5mm wide glue joint running the length of it.
> Plenty of abuse it's got, so I'm a believer.
> Not sure how well it holds up to outside or wet conditions compared to waterproof PVA.
> 
> Its an ash bench he has isn't it, ... can't see a fault with it.
> One has to bear in mind that Roycotewood college, where he was a student, likely encourages as much good traditional methodology as possible.
> 
> I wonder if invisible joints can be made with it in all timbers.
> Eager to see what others have to say,
> bearing in mind temperature being in a suitable range for a suitable period,
> and enough clamps should one be faster setting, as one will likely use every clamp they've got, regardless of what glue used.
> 
> Eager to see some negatives, apart from the whole thing with the last issue with quality which was seemingly addressed, although I wouldn't be chancing it for a long time as I don't have the likes of Axminster to get it from.
> 
> So apart from a bit of mixin, what's wrong with it?
> Seems most suitable for the frugal minded.


Yup, he has got an ash workbench with splashes of walnut.
Mine will be southern yellow pine.

Mine is an unheated garage workshop with concrete floor and a flat roof. So it gets cold in there (glue up or afterwards in service)


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## Orraloon

Cant comment on cascamite as I have never used it but pva is quite ok for a bench build and there is no mixing involved.
Regards
John


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## Craig22

It isn't about the glue - it is about the joint. The two long quarter sawn beech boards I joined on my Klausz bench were tongue and groove. Well actually I routed two wide and deep channels and glued in a length of plywood in one board, and cramped it in. Then glued the channel and cheek on the second board, assembled and quickly cramped (having adjusted the cramps first!). Sort of a glued floating tenon.

So I just used white glue. That was well over ten years ago, the bench is used regularly, and the top has moved not at all.

And like the OP, mine is in an unheated garage.

Craig


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## Jones

You are probably overthinking it. Cascamite ( urea formaldehyde) was widely used in exterior work and boatbuilding but now ready mixed glues are more convenient for most people, it's still used in gluelam production. Like all glues it has a shelf life , temperature range and also correct mixing.If you use it properly failure is very unlikely, it's not gap filling so brittleness is not really an issue in reality. I'd be happy to use it on a bench.


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## Phil Pascoe

__





Waterproof wood glue, UF resin powdered timber adhesive, Semforite, Cascamite, Aerolite


Cheapest powder wood glue in UK, undercuts Cascamite waterproof one-shot powder wood glue, waterproof wood glue for external woodworking, as an adhesive for all joinery work, lamination and plywoods. Casamite alternative, National Timber Federation, quick look-up library. Semforite cheapest UF...



www.maragon.co.uk





I believe Cascamite has been reformulated, but Semforite is probably more reliable and gives a good open time. PVA? I'd use Everbuild D4 if there are no complicated (time consuming) glue ups, Everbuild 502 gives you a little longer.


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## Adam W.

My bench is southern yellow pine and I used titebond with the green lable. It has been OK for over 15 years and has enjoyed both heated and un-heated workshops. I have no experience with cascamite, but I'm sure you'll get some decent advice here to help you decide.


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## Jacob

I use Evo stick white PVA for everything from my great heavy bench, now about 35 years old, to a lute, now 40 years old and still together.
Me no luthier I hasten to add - it was a kit with some preformed bits, but still a construction challenge including edge gluing 2mm sycamore bevel edged curved laths together over a curved former.
Must get around to learning to play it one day.
PVA is rumoured to creep under load, but it's just a rumour.


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## Woodernhift

I’d go for Titebond 3 for its longer open time with a few biscuits for alignment and an extra pair of hands.

I think the standard white PVA’s were/are prone to creep and would weaken when wet. However PVA’s like Titebond 3 crosslink as the cure producing a 3D matrix that is very resident to movement and has a good degree of resistance to water hence its external rating.


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## Phil Pascoe

Evostik Resin W is a perfectly good glue ......... but it's twice the price of Everbuild and no better, as are many other PVAs.


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## deema

Cascamite is a great glue with lots of applications. Waterproof, long open times and if kept away from moisture can be kept almost indefinitely. Does not need to be stored in a warm environment. 
Was the go to glue for all exterior joinery, doors, windows, boat building etc. 
Best mixed by weight, and when not used for a while / first time do a test mix / joint. 

My workbench’s are glued up with Cascamite, one is over 30 years old and the oldest is now used for bashing metal stuff!


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## Jacob

Phil Pascoe said:


> Evostik Resin W is a perfectly good glue ......... but it's twice the price of Everbuild and no better, as are many other PVAs.


Have had cheaper varieties of PVA and got a bit doubtful about some of them so stuck to Evostick. It's a tiny proportion of the cost of a job.


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## Hornbeam

I gave up on Cascamite when they had all the problems and switched to Aerolite when I want a waterproof glue, long open time or for laminating
For your workbench I would use Titebond


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## Hanman-Tools

I have used many types of glue over the years but I now use Wickes Weatherproof adhesive which has never let me down, also works well with biscuit joints.


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## Cabinetman

Resin W for me, as Jacob said the extra cost is negligible per glue up, and I’ve used it repeatedly for tight laminations and it doesn’t creep, checked back on furniture laminated 9 years ago- good as the day I glued it. Ian


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## Droogs

unless you are going to use it in the middle of the atlantic or only in the garden, then any wood glue will do the job as long as you have decent meeting faces and no gaps. I have made benches with PU PVA Cascamite Resin and even hide glue. It makes not difference as long as you have decent joinery.


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## Ttrees

Personally I think it would be nice to know which might be the best choice, 
should it have the life which this poor bench has endured.


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## Henniep

Cascamite is excellent and justified for outdoor applications. PVC glues are fine for internal use. Would cascamite be more expensive than PCV glues in your country?


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## Phil Pascoe

Cascamite is only just recovering (allegedly) from quality issues.


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## Mark Karacsonyi

As long as you have good mating joints any glue should suffice, if there are no damp concerns. I was a convert to Titebond some years ago, not looked back.


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## Ttrees

Mark Karacsonyi said:


> As long as you have good mating joints any glue should suffice, if there are no damp concerns. I was a convert to Titebond some years ago, not looked back.


From regular PVA, or from cascamite?


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## Mark Karacsonyi

Ttrees said:


> From regular PVA, or from cascamite?


From both, never had a need for cascamite, after my joints improved, eliminating the gaps.


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## Chip shop

The lads in the W/S next door swear by whatever brand of PU the rep is punting out this week. I despise the stuff and tend to use PVA for everything - don't think I've ever had a failure regardless of brand.


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## bp122

All valid points shared out of experience, but I'm still not sure which one to use. 

The Cascamite that people have used decades so may have been great, but it is the recent press I'm worried about. 

Actually, while writing this I may have made up my mind. I would like to try it at some point in the future, not during the biggest build of my life. I could do with as fewer distractions and frustrations as possible (some are inevitable i suppose) 

Titebond3 has been rated well here and elsewhere, but it is twice the price of some of the others and not seem to be in stock in the large bottle. 

I'll see if Axminster have it in their high Wycombe store when I return the Cascamite. If not, I'll get a pair of clamps or something and look for it elsewhere. 

If not, I'll go with evostick / everbuild. 

I was worried about the PVA's short time for the table top for up. For the legs etc, I'm not that worried as they are much smaller.


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## eribaMotters

Nothing wrong with Cascamite, it's just messy, you have to mix it, sometimes have waste, it's brittle, etc. 
For me though it's another vote for Titebond 3 and a few biscuits to align things. High tack, good open time, resistant to creep, waterproof, perfect. 

Colin


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## Lignumvitae

Hi All,
New member whose been enjoying the daily posts and level of expertise and camaraderie. Thank you everyone.
On glues I thought I would add an old Parker Knoll trick. Where frames built in High Wycombe were for export, particularly to hot countries, glues had to be used to withstand high humidity, heat and insects. I can't for the life of me remember whether it was Cascamite or Aerolite used. Maybe both depending on market. However it was established early on that the dynamic forces put on various chair joints could not be withstood due to brittleness in these glues. The answer, believe it or not was to add PVA. Scratching my head to remember how much. 2% comes to mind. If I am missing a nought, 20% sounds too much. From memory this had been established by trial and error not science but happy to be corrected on that bit of history. The shop floor wisdom was that the PVA molecular chains added elasticity to the joint. All I can say is that there were no cases of joint failure after that. Hope someone finds this of interest.
Thanks again for a great forum.


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## Phil Pascoe

I would imagine Aerolite probably would stand the flexing as it was specifically developed for wooden aircraft frames ..............which are hardly rigid, though central heating doesn't rear its ugly head there. I have repaired dozens of chairs glued with (probably cheap) urea formaldehyde adhesives that had shattered, although of course this was in centrally heated environments.


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## thetyreman

I just use PVA for everything now, wudcare, I deliberately never use titebond because it's about 3 x more expensive, sometimes I use everbuild D4 usually for outdoor stuff.


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## Ttrees

The regular titebond seems similarly priced to say everbuild (cheapest I've seen)
if buying by the gallon, and certainly cheaper than evo stick, (double the cost of everbuild) where I get it.
Maybe I need to shop around though?


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## bp122

Am I looking at the wrong thing?

I have seen everbuild 502 5 litre is for about £30 at Toolstation, £22 change on Amazon while Evostick 5 litre is only £13 at Toolstation. How is that more expensive? Unless I'm looking at the wrong product?


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## Phil Pascoe

It's a sealant, a different product. How well it would work I don't know. Resin W is £60 - £70 per 5ltr.

Incidentally, don't buy more than you can use in a few months - it degrades quite quickly, D4 quicker than standard PVA. Toolstation usually list 502 in litres but not at the moment. Don't let it get too cold.


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## thetyreman

PVA Waterproof Wood Adhesive | Rustins


A strong PVA glue that has been extensively tested to be weatherproof and water resistant. With unbreakable structural strength, these glues can be...




www.rustins.ltd


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## bp122

This brings another couple of questions to my mind:

1. For a 600mm X 1800mm workbench with laminated top and legs and all the joints, how much glue is required (even with the heaviest of glue spreading above average). Quite a few people have built a bench in the last few years, so I'm hoping for an estimate. I reckon 2 litres, but I suspect I might be underestimating it.

2. Spreading glue: old fashioned and use the fingers / slotted credit card / fancy glue applicator (small funnel and a roller) / just wave around the nozzle and not bother spreading it etc... ?


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## Droogs

My last bench build was a rouboesque one and is 2.4 x 1m made from laminated maple 40x25mm laminations and redwood frame and I use just over a bottle of 502
edit

oh and I used a lidl silicon icing spreader on a stick thingy to spread the glue and on many occasions forgot i had that and used my finger


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## Cabinetman

It probably isn’t a good idea to try and glue the whole top together in one go, so you are unlikely to run out halfway through the job, in my wildest imaginings I can’t think that you would need more than a litre of Resin W for the whole bench, personally I hardly ever use a spreader, run up and down leaving a bead with gaps between then rub the two bits of wood against each other. 
You will find it much easier if you buy a small blue Resin W as well then just top that up from the big 1ltr bottle. You need a lot of stamina to squeeze a big bottle all the time. Ian


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## Ttrees

Agreed, those squeezy nozzles are absolutely brutal on the fingers.
I decant into a suitably sized dettol bottle, as I often put the squeeze out back in.


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## Droogs

I have a little French's mustard bottle for use at the bench for PVA and a HP one for PU. Much better than lugging a big bottle about


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## Cabinetman

Droogs said:


> I have a little French's mustard bottle for use at the bench for PVA and a HP one for PU. Much better than lugging a big bottle about


 Now you mention it I am reminded that I use a Heinz sauce bottle, the sort with a silicone valve that reseals itself for shellac, works surprisingly well and doesn’t gum up. Ian


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## Jacob

Jam jar, stiff paint brush (trim the bristles on a normal one), palette knives, and a squeezy bottle with a nozzle.
Main thing is to spread glue over whole of both surfaces to be glued. Too much is better than too little.


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## ian33a

I used Titebond 3 on mine:







The important thing, I believe, is to have co-planar surfaces coated all over with glue, joined and then held in place properly until everything is dry. I did the central laminates one day and then put the end sections on a few days later.


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## JobandKnock

Jacob said:


> PVA is rumoured to creep under load, but it's just a rumour.


Surely that's a throwback to the sixties or seventies, Jacob? (urbann myth?) Try some Everbuild D4 PVA if you get the chance. Really good for exterior work where a bit of flexibility is required


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## Phil Pascoe

Creep is the reason many turners don't use PVA for built up work.


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## Phil Pascoe

Jacob said:


> Main thing is to spread glue over whole of both surfaces to be glued. Too much is better than too little.




Agree 100%. I've never heard the reason why manufacturers give the instruction "apply to one side only", though.


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## JobandKnock

Phil Pascoe said:


> Creep is the reason many turners don't use PVA for built up work.


But which PVA is that? All, D2, D3, D4?


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## Phil Pascoe

I've not heard one specify, though I doubt it's D4 - but D4 technically isn't a PVA (though I (and everyone else?) treat it and use it as one). I suspect most are D3 now.


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## JobandKnock

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've not heard one specify, though I doubt it's D4 - but D4 technically isn't a PVA (though I (and everyone else?) treat it and use it as one). I suspect most are D3 now.


I though that D4 PVA was a PVA where the cross-linking capacity had been enhanced, and that the lack of complete cross linking might be why lower grades of PVA might be subject to an amount of "slip"


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## Droogs

Phil Pascoe said:


> Agree 100%. I've never heard the reason why manufacturers give the instruction "apply to one side only", though.


Believe it or not but the chemistry shows that glue actually works best if you can get a joint tight enough for the glue to be 3 molecules thick. One on each piece and one in the middle for them to bond to. The phrase "never too much glue" is in fact complete rubbish, it weakens the bond and therefore the joint and means a crapload of unnecessary clean up.


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## Cabinetman

Droogs said:


> Believe it or not but the chemistry shows that glue actually works best if you can get a joint tight enough for the glue to be 3 molecules thick. One on each piece and one in the middle for them to bond to. The phrase "never too much glue" is in fact complete rubbish, it weakens the bond and therefore the joint and means a crapload of unnecessary clean up.


 Absolutely agree, I only ever put it on one side, never seen the point of wasting glue, or time. Ian


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## thetyreman

I put in on both sides but very thinly, works for me, I get very little squeese out, usually just a little bit, I'd love to try hot hide glue because you can re-use the squeeze out and put it back in the pot.


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## D_W

bp122 said:


> Hi all
> 
> Thanks to some help from various sources, I am now rapidly approaching the time to start milling the timber for my workbench.
> 
> I recently re-watched Matt Estlea's split top roubo build (that's what I'm going to be building) and he recommended Cascamite over normal PVA. So I had ordered a tub from Axminster as part of another order to qualify for free delivery.
> 
> Of course after buying it I just went on the search to discover that people have had bad experiences with it recently and have moved to a few other options for "stressed" joints.
> 
> Considering I'm building a workbench, I'm fairly certain that thing is going to see some stress. So didn't want to make the wrong call before the biggest glue up of my life.
> 
> Thoughts, recommendations, welcome.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> Bp



I used some kind of titebond - don't even remember which. 

I have beaten my workbench to the point of senselessness sometimes (which is why I built it). The legs are laminated, the top is laminated. I didn't joint the boards because I was too lazy to (don't have a power jointer and it seemed they'd be fine if just run through a thickness planer and forced together. 

I don't know how old it is now 7 or 8 years? I wouldn't overthink this. 

Nothing hs come apart on mine or even shown a tendency to. I'm beginning to think that once in a great while, internet tips are helpful in building things, but 95% of the time, they prevent people from getting on with things (I don't know what cascamite is as it's not something I've seen here, but even the tip that the cascamite is bad is kind of a hold-up that just causes you to hold up and question things. One test board overnight before starting the bench will remove questions about the quality of the glue. 

I mention not jointing mine because there would obviously be parts of the top that don't have Franklin's suggested joint thickness - it doesn't matter. There is no creep, etc, at any of the joints, either.


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## D_W

Droogs said:


> Believe it or not but the chemistry shows that glue actually works best if you can get a joint tight enough for the glue to be 3 molecules thick. One on each piece and one in the middle for them to bond to. The phrase "never too much glue" is in fact complete rubbish, it weakens the bond and therefore the joint and means a crapload of unnecessary clean up.



I'm not sure about the molecules, but there's a chemist on one of the american forums, and a brilliant practical chemist. He's not a glue guy, but went down the rabbit hole years ago and dragged all kinds of information out of Franklin about glues. 

Not totally related to that, but his term is wetting or whetting - if a glue surface is whetted, the glue will have good adhesion. 

the only glue joints I've ever seen fail in person are not too much or too little glue, though - they are when someone plays with something like a panel joint too long, lets it set up for a short period of time and then tries to adjust it laterally minutes later when they suddenly see a step on one side. 

I don't want to say whether or not I have also been that someone!

Turners won't use glue due to creep, but one of the interesting things about creep and glue is that for decades, PVA glue was used in guitars (and polyurethane was used on the outside of guitars all the way back in the 1960s by Fender, and maybe earlier by others). Once the internet became big, there was an instant "common knowledge" that PVA makes terrible guitars "because the joint is too soft and tone is lost" and that "no good guitars are made with polyurethane finishes"

I have only made a few guitars, and some have been hide glue joints and some have been PVA. I've glued on fingerboards with tite bond and glued them on with fish protein glue, and the loudest unplugged electric guitar that I have is a rosewood necked telecaster style guitar with a PVA glued fingerboard (no glue needed on the body, it's one piece)

We are makers and most of us are keeping most of what we make. If the fingerboard on the rosewood guitar ever moves, I guess i"ll have to make a video. If I ever have to fix it (doubtful), I guess it'll take longer to steam off and I'll have to scrape it. 

Some days, I follow the glue advice "well, if this is a nice guitar, i want to be able to say it's got only animal glue in it" and other days, I wonder why we torture ourselves.


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## the great waldo

D_W said:


> I'm not sure about the molecules, but there's a chemist on one of the american forums, and a brilliant practical chemist. He's not a glue guy, but went down the rabbit hole years ago and dragged all kinds of information out of Franklin about glues.
> 
> Not totally related to that, but his term is wetting or whetting - if a glue surface is whetted, the glue will have good adhesion.
> 
> the only glue joints I've ever seen fail in person are not too much or too little glue, though - they are when someone plays with something like a panel joint too long, lets it set up for a short period of time and then tries to adjust it laterally minutes later when they suddenly see a step on one side.
> 
> I don't want to say whether or not I have also been that someone!
> 
> Turners won't use glue due to creep, but one of the interesting things about creep and glue is that for decades, PVA glue was used in guitars (and polyurethane was used on the outside of guitars all the way back in the 1960s by Fender, and maybe earlier by others). Once the internet became big, there was an instant "common knowledge" that PVA makes terrible guitars "because the joint is too soft and tone is lost" and that "no good guitars are made with polyurethane finishes"
> 
> I have only made a few guitars, and some have been hide glue joints and some have been PVA. I've glued on fingerboards with tite bond and glued them on with fish protein glue, and the loudest unplugged electric guitar that I have is a rosewood necked telecaster style guitar with a PVA glued fingerboard (no glue needed on the body, it's one piece)
> 
> We are makers and most of us are keeping most of what we make. If the fingerboard on the rosewood guitar ever moves, I guess i"ll have to make a video. If I ever have to fix it (doubtful), I guess it'll take longer to steam off and I'll have to scrape it.
> 
> Some days, I follow the glue advice "well, if this is a nice guitar, i want to be able to say it's got only animal glue in it" and other days, I wonder why we torture ourselves.


Try gluing a bridge on an acoustic guitar with white pva and see how long it holds out in a car on a sunny day! I've used titebond original for over 40 years for making guitars and never had a problem. I've also still got my first ever classical guitar that I made and the joints were glued with bone/hide Glue and the joints are all fine. My workbenches were glued up with Titebond original (these are made from beech 50-75 mm thick) and they have held up with no problems. There is quite a bit of movement sideways between winter 25% rh summer 80% rh on the bench top which I factored in when making the benches by putting an endpiece with a tongue and groove fixed with a coach bolt in the middle that allows for movement. I've used recently titebond extend (I think this is the same stuff as lmii sell a luthier glue) this gives a bit more glue up time and does also come apart with heat water alcohol and dries a bit harder than titebond original (more like hide glue hardness) only problem with extend is the shelf life, which is not as long as titebond original. As for the tone of different glues with instruments, I think a lot of nonsense is talked about by the cork sniffers about the tone of hide glue against aliphatic glues or whatever. I'd be interested if anyone could come up with any proper scientific way of measuring tonal effects of different glues, which I think would be minimal as on a good glue joint there should be virtually no glue left in the joint. A good musician and fresh strings make a helluva a lot more difference. Any way back to the original question. I would use in the following order for gluing a bench together 1: titebond extend (gives extra clamp up time) 2:Titebond original (it works and is more easily available than extend) 3: pva wood glue (should work ok if joints are good and wood is properly seasoned and is easily avaialble) 4: Cascamite (should work fine and is waterproof if you decide to work outside in the rain. 5: bone/hide glue (if you can afford the heating bills to get the workshop hot enough to glue up the panels and have enough people to get the glue and clamps on before it gels) altough this must have been the way they made the benches in the old days.
Cheers
Andrew


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## thetyreman

the great waldo said:


> Try gluing a bridge on an acoustic guitar with white pva and see how long it holds out in a car on a sunny day! I've used titebond original for over 40 years for making guitars and never had a problem. I've also still got my first ever classical guitar that I made and the joints were glued with bone/hide Glue and the joints are all fine. My workbenches were glued up with Titebond original (these are made from beech 50-75 mm thick) and they have held up with no problems. There is quite a bit of movement sideways between winter 25% rh summer 80% rh on the bench top which I factored in when making the benches by putting an endpiece with a tongue and groove fixed with a coach bolt in the middle that allows for movement. I've used recently titebond extend (I think this is the same stuff as lmii sell a luthier glue) this gives a bit more glue up time and does also come apart with heat water alcohol and dries a bit harder than titebond original (more like hide glue hardness) only problem with extend is the shelf life, which is not as long as titebond original. As for the tone of different glues with instruments, I think a lot of nonsense is talked about by the cork sniffers about the tone of hide glue against aliphatic glues or whatever. I'd be interested if anyone could come up with any proper scientific way of measuring tonal effects of different glues, which I think would be minimal as on a good glue joint there should be virtually no glue left in the joint. A good musician and fresh strings make a helluva a lot more difference. Any way back to the original question. I would use in the following order for gluing a bench together 1: titebond extend (gives extra clamp up time) 2:Titebond original (it works and is more easily available than extend) 3: pva wood glue (should work ok if joints are good and wood is properly seasoned and is easily avaialble) 4: Cascamite (should work fine and is waterproof if you decide to work outside in the rain. 5: bone/hide glue (if you can afford the heating bills to get the workshop hot enough to glue up the panels and have enough people to get the glue and clamps on before it gels) altough this must have been the way they made the benches in the old days.
> Cheers
> Andrew



that doesn't make sense, there's no reason why white glue PVA is inferior to a huge greedy corporation like titebond, they haven't found some magic formula, it's all marketing BS and they need to be called out over it, I don't think titebond is better in any way at all from my own tests, there is no real evidence that it is. Also, you would never leave an acoustic guitar in a hot car on a sunny day, I've been playing over 20 years, mine stays in its hardcase all the time.


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## Jacob

Cabinetman said:


> Absolutely agree, I only ever put it on one side, never seen the point of wasting glue, or time. Ian





Droogs said:


> Believe it or not but the chemistry shows that glue actually works best if you can get a joint tight enough for the glue to be 3 molecules thick. One on each piece and one in the middle for them to bond to. The phrase "never too much glue" is in fact complete rubbish, it weakens the bond and therefore the joint and means a crapload of unnecessary clean up.


I've had a one or two glue failures and it's always been due to not enough glue and/or glue on one side only. When you look at the separated pieces you see the glue spread evenly all over one side has somehow not entirely made it to the other and there are glue free patches, in spite of cramping things tight.
I tried it as an experiment - glue one side, cramp up, quickly pull apart and see if the other side has got glue all over it. Quite surprising how it often does not spread and fill the gap.
So for me it's glue both sides, too much better than too little, if the glue is not being squeezed out into a little bead along the whole of the joint then there is not enough in there.


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## JobandKnock

thetyreman said:


> that doesn't make sense, there's no reason why white glue PVA is inferior to a huge greedy corporation like titebond, they haven't found some magic formula, it's all marketing BS and they need to be called out over it, I don't think titebond is better in any way at all from my own tests, there is no real evidence that it is.


Years back I had a chat with a chemist from a local glue manufacturer and asked him about Titebond. He said that "aliphatic resin" is more or less the same, chemically, as a D2 or D3 PVA and that it was to a great extent a marketing ploy because all these glues are fundamentally derived from starch which lends itself to being altered to improve cross-linking, change the viscosity and colour (by adding dyestuffs). To solve a problem we were having with dowel glueing he formulated a less viscous D3 PVA for us which sort of proved his point


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## the great waldo

thetyreman said:


> that doesn't make sense, there's no reason why white glue PVA is inferior to a huge greedy corporation like titebond, they haven't found some magic formula, it's all marketing BS and they need to be called out over it, I don't think titebond is better in any way at all from my own tests, there is no real evidence that it is. Also, you would never leave an acoustic guitar in a hot car on a sunny day, I've been playing over 20 years, mine stays in its hardcase all the time.


Well i've been making and repairing guitars since 1976 and i've had enough repairs to do with bridges lifting with white glue and people do leave their guitars in cars or in dry rooms (I doubt that's a problem in the UK where I was born and lived for 30 years) titebond will also give up in high temperatures although it's tendency for creep is less. I'm posting here from my own experiences and have found that titebond original and extend works fine and prefer it over most white pva's that tend to dry a little soft. All the stuff about big corporations is another topic. By the way which tests have you conducted on the different glue capabilities ? i'm not too old or stuck in my ways (excuse the pun) and ready willing to learn something new.
Cheers
Andrew


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## John Brown

thetyreman said:


> I've been playing over 20 years, mine stays in its hardcase all the time.


???


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## thetyreman

John Brown said:


> ???



should have said when not using it.


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## D_W

the great waldo said:


> Try gluing a bridge on an acoustic guitar with white pva and see how long it holds out in a car on a sunny day!



I did something common in the US but that's probably not correct (it's definitely not for at least some of the titebond line). I referred to titebond as PVA (They're used interchangeably here among hobbyists because there really isn't PVA use to any extent). 

So, if I mentioned PVA for guitars, I meant TB I, 2 or 3. 

I don't know if TB is marked up overseas, but it's so unbelievably cheap at the hobby level here that you can buy a short dollar amount and not be able to get through it before it spoils. For example, TB1 is on the shelf two places on the road I live on for $17 a gallon. I'd bet the retailer makes more profit on it than the manufacturer. 

I don't know for sure what was used on guitars when these glues became common and cheap, but some of the manufacturers now flatly state which TB is used for joints because the internet forums are full of people who have never built a guitar, but they "know" about the tonal problems with different glues. So, manufacturers do all kinds of rubbish they never did before the internet (showing pictures of neck tenons, specifying which TB, etc.). 

And then you look at a glued joint in some of the guitars, and they have a ton of play in them so that they can be clamped in place and try to make the glue do the work. So, I don't get into too many conversations with instrument buyers who don't build them as they'll be obsessed on the glue type and then show me a neck tenon picture that looks like it has two ounces of hide glue in it and talk about how hard the glue is and how great the tone will be because of it. 

And they'll get confused when I say "wouldn't it be nice to have a tenon that had too little space between it and the guitar to even see the glue? - then you wouldn't have to care what glue it is, but you'd also have to drill the bridge posts after the neck is instead instead of putting a loose joint on a guitar so that you can turn the neck to match where the bridge is located". 

So, my apologies for PVA/TB comments as if they're the same - they're just said the same here as TB 1 is more or less the cheapest thing you'll find to glue wood.


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## John Brown

So what are you saying? Is Titebond PVA or is it something else?


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## D_W

John Brown said:


> So what are you saying? Is Titebond PVA or is it something else?



At least some of the TB types are "aliphatic resin" glue (I think all three TBI,2, 3). I found this explanation on a model aircraft forum (I used to fly RC planes - glue suddenly becomes more important when it's gluing little tiny parts together and the plane is doing maneuvers at extremely high Gs). 

"
_Aliphatic resin glue is chemically similar to PVA (white glue), but it is chemically modified to make it stronger and more waterproof. It is typically a buttery yellow color and is sold as "carpenter’s wood glue."........ Like PVA, it's very inexpensive._

A center part of the post more or less said "Titebond is this type and it's ubiquitous in the US. Which is true - if you go to a box store or hardware store, you'll find "School glue" (white- which some people will call "milk glue", though I don't think there's casein in any of it), and "yellow glue", which before the internet was called "carpenter's glue" and now some of the non TB brands say "carpenter's wood glue" on them. 

The internet is a minefield as there are "guru expert" woodworkers with articles like "TB I, 2 or 3 - which PVA glue to choose?"

The draw of the guru personality is far more important than the need for even reasonable precision, I guess. I called Yellow "PVA" above even knowing that it's not a plain PVA glue because of bad habit here in the states. PVA, yellow glue, and wood glue are all said in the same sentence only occasionally saying "OK, yellow glue, not PVA". 

Franklin makes a gaggle of other glues, though, and even when they're polyurethane or liquid animal glues, they still have the "titebond" brand on them. 

(I made the comment about guitars as often very highly regarded guitars now that have "vintage tone" that supposedly can't be matched were made with aliphatic resin glues - which were probably seen as a blessing in guitar factories before the work went sloppy if for no other reason just because there's a little extra open time, and the areas where gluing is done in a factory don't need to be kept at high temps for hide glue and I guess - not a glue expert - other precursors to AR glues were more aromatic or toxic). 


Long story short, for this topic - I seriously doubt anyone is going to properly glue a bench with TB and have it fail.


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## Jonm

bp122 said:


> Am I looking at the wrong thing?
> 
> I have seen everbuild 502 5 litre is for about £30 at Toolstation, £22 change on Amazon while Evostick 5 litre is only £13 at Toolstation. How is that more expensive? Unless I'm looking at the wrong product?


I think the references to “evostick PVA” are to resin W, and I can understand why you have been confused.

I used to use evostick resin W. One day I was making a box with folding legs to go in the caravan to put the small tv on with DVD player in the box, lightweight construction. Had run out of glue so used some pva from a 5 litre container, it said it would glue wood. It worked and held the wood together, the box was thin ply for lightness, glued and pinned. A few days later I dropped it accidentally, it was only a small bump. The whole thing fell apart with a sound similar to breaking glass.

I redid all the joints with resin W and it was fine.

I now only use pva for glueing wood if it is called “wood adhesive” or similar. I tend to use everbuild D4 now.


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## JobandKnock

D_W said:


> I don't know if TB is marked up overseas, but it's so unbelievably cheap at the hobby level here that you can buy a short dollar amount and not be able to get through it before it spoils. For example, TB1 is on the shelf two places on the road I live on for $17 a gallon. I'd bet the retailer makes more profit on it than the manufacturer.


No, I find it ridiculously expensive relative to what I normally use _in the UK_



D_W said:


> "_Aliphatic resin glue is chemically similar to PVA (white glue), but it is chemically modified to make it stronger and more waterproof. It is typically a buttery yellow color and is sold as "carpenter’s wood glue."........ Like PVA, it's very inexpensive_.


And this is where we seem to hit the differences in terminology between the USA and the UK/EU. In this market PVA glues are described with a "D" number, from D1 to D4.

D1 PVA is basically "builders PVA", an admixture which goes into coatings or is used to seal dusty concrete. Contact with moisture reverses the bond

D2 PVA is suitable for interior use, such as furniture. Contact with moisture reverses the bond, but more slowly than D1. A widely used example of D2 PVA is Evostik Resin W (green bottle)

D3 PVA is suitable for sheltered exterior use, such as some types of joinery. It is modified so that it cross-links as it dries and because of this is is relatively durable unless you use it in extremely exposed positions. the joints are a lot harder to break. A widely used example of D3 PVA is Evostik Resin W (blue bottle)

D4 PVA is suitable for exposed exterior use. It is modified so that it completely cross links as it dries (the manufacturers refer to this as " hybrid resin technology", so the joints cannot easily be reversed (maybe with acetone, not sure). A widely used example of D4 PVA is Everbuild D4 Wood Adhesive which we've been buying in at around £11.00 per litre bottle as opposed to the £6.50 or so we pay for Everbuild 502 (D3) [Those are the one litre bottle prices - we do get bulk when we can, either 5 ltr or 25 ltr, but availability is decidely flakey at present, and prices vary a lot]

Note that D4 doesn't necessarilly mean PU (polyurethane) glue, as is often mis-stated in the UK for some reason

By your definitions(?) that probably makes D3 and D4 PVA glues (as we call them) aliphatic resins. Either way I was chatting about this with a neighbour this evening who used to be a shop foreman for a furniture manufacturing business (mainly hardwood and veneered boards, medium volume). He said that they used to be able to specify their glues for different jobs, so if they wanted a glue which produced a dark glue line (for walnut) they'd order PVA with an added colouring agent, same if they wanted a straw coloured glue line, etc. the also used to get low viscosity glues (runnier) for their dowel inserter line. The manufacturer just required a minimum batch size of 20 litres (or just over four gallon size plastic bottles). He also mentioned something about being able to retard faster setting glue by adding up to 5% distilled water - a lot of the D3 and D4 PVA I've used in recent years has an open time of 5 to 20 minutes, so speedy working with it is often a must

So my own feeling is that Titebond, at least as far as the UK is concerned is overhyped to a tremendous degree and there are equivalents which would do a goodly percentage of what Titeboond can do - at a lower price


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## D_W

It sounds like distribution is the problem. If there's a material savings below $17 per gallon (or 10% below that for professionals), it would get lost in rounding here.

If TB costs a lot more than that in the uk, that's unfortunate.


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## Cabinetman

JobandKnock said:


> No, I find it ridiculously expensive relative to what I normally use _in the UK_
> 
> 
> And this is where we seem to hit the differences in terminology between the USA and the UK/EU. In this market PVA glues are described with a "D" number, from D1 to D4.
> 
> D1 PVA is basically "builders PVA", an admixture which goes into coatings or is used to seal dusty concrete. Contact with moisture reverses the bond
> 
> D2 PVA is suitable for interior use, such as furniture. Contact with moisture reverses the bond, but more slowly than D1. A widely used example of D2 PVA is Evostik Resin W (green bottle)
> 
> D3 PVA is suitable for sheltered exterior use, such as some types of joinery. It is modified so that it cross-links as it dries and because of this is is relatively durable unless you use it in extremely exposed positions. the joints are a lot harder to break. A widely used example of D3 PVA is Evostik Resin W (blue bottle)
> 
> D4 PVA is suitable for exposed exterior use. It is modified so that it completely cross links as it dries (the manufacturers refer to this as " hybrid resin technology", so the joints cannot easily be reversed (maybe with acetone, not sure). A widely used example of D4 PVA is Everbuild D4 Wood Adhesive which we've been buying in at around £11.00 per litre bottle as opposed to the £6.50 or so we pay for Everbuild 502 (D3) [Those are the one litre bottle prices - we do get bulk when we can, either 5 ltr or 25 ltr, but availability is decidely flakey at present, and prices vary a lot]
> 
> Note that D4 doesn't necessarilly mean PU (polyurethane) glue, as is often mis-stated in the UK for some reason
> 
> By your definitions(?) that probably makes D3 and D4 PVA glues (as we call them) aliphatic resins. Either way I was chatting about this with a neighbour this evening who used to be a shop foreman for a furniture manufacturing business (mainly hardwood and veneered boards, medium volume). He said that they used to be able to specify their glues for different jobs, so if they wanted a glue which produced a dark glue line (for walnut) they'd order PVA with an added colouring agent, same if they wanted a straw coloured glue line, etc. the also used to get low viscosity glues (runnier) for their dowel inserter line. The manufacturer just required a minimum batch size of 20 litres (or just over four gallon size plastic bottles). He also mentioned something about being able to retard faster setting glue by adding up to 5% distilled water - a lot of the D3 and D4 PVA I've used in recent years has an open time of 5 to 20 minutes, so speedy working with it is often a must
> 
> So my own feeling is that Titebond, at least as far as the UK is concerned is overhyped to a tremendous degree and there are equivalents which would do a goodly percentage of what Titeboond can do - at a lower price


Thanks for that, explaining the mine field, mind you it won’t make any difference, I shall stick (lol) with blue resin W, never had any problems, and in relative terms it’s not an expense consideration. Ian


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## John Brown

Yes, thanks. It is confusing. My dad had Cascamite(in powder form), Evostik Resin W, and Unibond(in a tin). 
I tend to use Everbuild 502 mostly, as it's pretty cheap, I think I've paid around £5 for a litre. 
But I do have some TB 3, as I read it was food safe. In fact I just used some TB3 that I've had for almost 15 years, and it seems to have held. Time will tell.
Also have some Gorilla PU glue, as apparently it works better with wet wood than PVA.


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## Phil Pascoe

JobandKnock said:


> He also mentioned something about being able to retard faster setting glue by adding up to 5% distilled water - a lot of the D3 and D4 PVA I've used in recent years has an open time of 5 to 20 minutes, so speedy working with it is often a must
> 
> So my own feeling is that Titebond, at least as far as the UK is concerned is overhyped to a tremendous degree and there are equivalents which would do a goodly percentage of what Titebond can do - at a lower price



In summer especially I wet the wood before applying the glue, which gives a little more time (and I suspect aids its spreading).
I don't knock Titebond, Resin W etc. per se, I just wonder why people pay the premium.


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## Jake

John Brown said:


> So what are you saying? Is Titebond PVA or is it something else?



Having been down this rabbit hole myself in the past, it's PVA. The aliphatic resins are an additional modifier (i.e. not the base glue itself, which is PVA). The aliphatic resins act as tackifiers (increasing the initial feeling of 'stickiness') and a platform for marketing BS. My suspicion is that the yellow colour is just a colourant to make it look like not-PVA but I have no proof of that.


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## Jake

Like this:

Eastman Tackifier Center - Criteria for selecting a Tackifier

Eastman Tackifier Center | C5, Aliphatic Resins

Aliphatic Hydrocarbon Tackifier Resins | Adhesives (tri-iso.com)

Aliphatics - Adhesives Ingredients Selection - SpecialChem

Tackifiers (polymerdatabase.com)


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## JobandKnock

D_W said:


> It sounds like distribution is the problem. If there's a material savings below $17 per gallon (or 10% below that for professionals), it would get lost in rounding here.


Remember that prices here are quoted inclusive of our equivalent of in-state sales tax, known as VAT, at 20% - so if you take 20% off the prices quoted it starts to look a bit more reasonable, especially if you take into account shipping and (in the case of Titebond) import duty

Even locally produced materials will seem more expensive - this is down in part to the relative costs of operating in a smaller economy



John Brown said:


> I do have some TB 3, as I read it was food safe. In fact I just used some TB3 that I've had for almost 15 years, and it seems to have held. Time will tell.


By the same standard PVA glues should also be food safe unless the manufacturer adds stuff to them (at the end of the day PVA is just modified starch - and always chec k the CoSHH sheets) - how long it lasts is down to storage, I'd say. At this time of year the thing that kills it is frost when it is stored outdoors in sheds and vans



John Brown said:


> Also have some Gorilla PU glue, as apparently it works better with wet wood than PVA.


PU glue is activated by moisture in the air, so adding water to the joint acts as a bit of extra activator. Similarly PU doesn't seem to like being stored at sub-zero temperatures, but that's maybe because the seal on the bottle neck is less effective at low tempoeratures.



Phil Pascoe said:


> I don't knock Titebond, Resin W etc. per se, I just wonder why people pay the premium.


TBH I think it is overhyped and that people haven't got much understanding of "PVA", which is a bit more than just one glue. I find it interesting that I haven't come across anyone running a joinery shop or a shop fitting firm who use Titebonmd exclusively


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## John Brown

I believe Titebond is made in the US, so it would generally be more expensive over here.


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## D_W

I guess I"m not completely following the cost for glue there - PVA - 5 pounds a litre? is that about right (for white glue?)

If we just call the price in dollars converted to pounds without adjustment good enough, that would give a cushion of about 40%. 

So titebond 1 would be 17 pounds at retail. So enough to add VAT plus 20%. 

Realizing that if you have a greedy distributor, they could add 50% themselves plus the cost of transport. AT one point here in the states, one person had control of all of the shapton stones and they cost double what I could buy them for from Japan including proxy shipping for a group. 

I guess my point is that I don't think the issue is titebond in terms of the cost, but it could be someone else. 

if I were a contractor, I would automatically be able to buy five US gallons of the stuff for 78 bucks less 10% and no tax -at retail. 

At your cost there in conversion, that would be about 10 pounds per gallon. And that includes profit for the retailer and transport to it.


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## Spectric

JobandKnock said:


> So my own feeling is that Titebond, at least as far as the UK is concerned is overhyped to a tremendous degree and there are equivalents which would do a goodly percentage of what Titeboond can do - at a lower price


So spill the beans, I use Titebond three because it works and I know no better, ie stick with the devil you know but if there are cheaper alternatives or at least ones as good but with a better open time then name them as I am interested.


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## D_W

This works both ways, by the way. Years ago, I wanted to get a sebo automatic. They were gobs cheaper in England than they were in the US, despite the VAT - smelled funny to me. 

This was a while ago now, but it was $880 plus sales tax for a sebo automatic and 500 pounds with VAT in the UK free shipping at the time. When we have to pay more for something here than you do and it's not pork pies shipped air, something is off. Whoever is distributing and owning the naming rights must really feel entitled. 

(I ended up finding the same vacuum under a commercial brand for $425 including shipping. Identical vacuum, different colors, and the operating manual and parts list that came with it was labeled "sebo automatic". 

Marshall amplifiers are another - why we get robbed blind for those, I don't know, and just buying them from europe isn't quite as easy because the electric supply isn't the same. By that, I mean the ones made in Bletchley and not the ones made in vietnam with "marshall" written on them. We get shelled. 

Gibson guitars are cheaper new than they are in the US, too. Figure that one out (all of them are US made).


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## JobandKnock

D_W said:


> if I were a contractor, I would automatically be able to buy five US gallons of the stuff for 78 bucks less 10% and no tax -at retail.


Well I am a contractor (or at least I'm a foreman for one) and the best we can get Everbuild D4 PVA for according to the 1 December price list is about £105.00 for 25 litres - D3 such as Everbuild 502 is under £70 for 5 litres (those prices are exclusive VAT, but inclusive delivery charges). I was quoting single litre prices including VAT because I suspect that most guys on here would be buying.

It's maybe also worth knowing that PVAs are all made from the samer basic raw material, namely corn starch, of which the USA is the largest single producer in the world with about 28% (?) of world production. The UK doesn't have the climate to produce corn for starch so we need to import or use alternative source, such as wheat. It's all part of the joy of living on a small, wet island


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## D_W

You make a fine point about amounts 
If you go to certain small hardware stores, you'll sometimes find a pint of tb1 for $7 or something of the like, maybe more if the tun some kind of coupon sham.

Home depot here has strong markups, and rockler woodworking was down the hill from them. If you had a 25% off coupon and bought a quart of finish and home depot had the same thing, the regular price was less than the coupon price at rockler. 10% further off for contractors or veterans at home depot and no waving coupons around like a mark.


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