# Dovetail marking gauge



## Paul Chapman (28 May 2008)

I needed to make a dovetail marking gauge, so I pinched a design from Rob Stoakley (from whom I also pinched the piece of perspex and the piece of Rosewood  ).

Planed one edge of the perspex dead straight, then marked a centre line using a marking gauge. Drilled and countersunk two holes and screwed the perspex to a large-ish piece of MDF. Did all the marking out on the MDF then routed the perspex using a 6mm bit and a slow speed. I've used a slope of 1 in 7.

The Rosewood fence is fitted with a couple of M6 coach bolts and wing nuts







I'm quite pleased with how it's turned out.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Wiley Horne (29 May 2008)

Paul (and Rob),

That's a very good design IMO, because it gets you directly to pin placement. Does anyone make that style commercially anymore? I have one many years old (1:8)--and use it-- that a fellow in Berea, Kentucky used to make, but they're not advertised anymore. The perspex is a good idea, so you can see the adjacent pattern. 

Thanks for showing!

Wiley

EDIT: That silly face up there is supposed to be saying 1:8, but I can't get the mocking face to go away.


----------



## Waka (29 May 2008)

Paul

Very neat and tidy.


----------



## Paul Chapman (29 May 2008)

Wiley Horne":2qlhmvu4 said:


> Does anyone make that style commercially anymore?



Thanks Wiley. I've not seen this design anywhere commercially. I tried out Rob's and immediately liked it so was keen to make one for myself.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## bugbear (29 May 2008)

Paul Chapman":20mv8bph said:


> I needed to make a dovetail marking gauge, so I pinched a design from Rob Stoakley (from whom I also pinched the piece of perspex and the piece of Rosewood  ).



AFAIK that design was originated by Robert Wearing, and published in Making Woodwork AIDS and Devices

As an over generous response to a minor favour I did him, Ian Dalziel (of this parish) made me an interpretation of it:











BugBear


----------



## woodbloke (29 May 2008)

BB - fabulous looking bit of kit. These sorts of gauges work very well and I've never had any sort of problem with mine. Pauls is the same as mine with a slope of 1:7 which should be good for most work. One advantage of this sort of gauge is that if on the odd occasion a hoppered box needs to be made then an adjustment to the setting is quite easily done

Paul - of course you need a good (W) dovetail saw now to go with the gauge :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: - Rob


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 May 2008)

Nice work Paul! And, of course BB, that one that Ian made for you ius simply stunning. 

I love cutting dovetails and so I enjoy dovetail saws, dovetail knives, and - as here - dovetail marking gauges. There are a bunch of different designs on the market. I own a few. I have not used the Paul/Ian/BB type. I wonder how it compares with these:

The "T" types of Lie-Nielsen (ala Rob Cosman), a gift from TLN, ... 1:6 and 1:7






.. and WoodJoy ... it is really tiny ... 1:6 and 1:8






I prefer and use a saddle or "L" type as you can make both the front and top in one line. 

Here is an infilled one I made in brass and Tasmanian Blackwood (a little "joke" as it is a dovetailed dovetail marker). 1:7






... and recently I made a production run of these in brass (1:5, 1:6, 1:7, 1:8 ) for the lads on WoodNet.






Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Paul Chapman (29 May 2008)

woodbloke":2llp0fny said:


> Paul - of course you need a good (W) dovetail saw now to go with the gauge :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:



I've no idea what you mean :^o :lol:


----------



## bugbear (29 May 2008)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Nice work Paul! And, of course BB, that one that Ian made for you is simply stunning.



Yeah - complete over kill 



> I love cutting dovetails and so I enjoy dovetail saws, dovetail knives, and - as here - dovetail marking gauges. There are a bunch of different designs on the market. I own a few. I have not used the Paul/Ian/BB type. I wonder how it compares with these:
> 
> The "T" types of Lie-Nielsen (ala Rob Cosman), a gift from TLN, ... 1:6 and 1:7



I think that the 'T' design probably has the best cost/benefit ratio, embodying two angles AND a right angle square.

The advantage of the Wearing design is that you place it centrally on the DT mark, and scribe BOTH lines for a DT in one placement; that's why it needs to be adjustable for the width of the DT (by sliding the stop up/down the template).

BugBear


----------



## Anonymous (29 May 2008)

Nice thread. Thanks for all the great pix!


----------



## Wiley Horne (29 May 2008)

Derek said,

I wonder how it compares with these:

The "T" types of Lie-Nielsen (ala Rob Cosman), a gift from TLN, ... 1:6 and 1:7





[/quote]

Then Bugbear said,

I think that the 'T' design probably has the best cost/benefit ratio, embodying two angles AND a right angle square.

The advantage of the Wearing design is that you place it centrally on the DT mark, and scribe BOTH lines for a DT in one placement; that's why it needs to be adjustable for the width of the DT (by sliding the stop up/down the template).

BugBear[/quote]


Bugbear hits the nail on the head IMO. Both styles have their advantages, and Derek has made some stunning gauges (not to even mention Ian's!).

On balance, I like the Wearing/Stoakley/Dalziel/Chapman style for this reason....I don't want to spend much time laying out the dovetail pattern. Would rather make it up on the fly and get to the sawing. The way I go about it is to gang the tails boards, then lay in the pins on the tails board (drawer side) near me, and that defines everything else. Because the Wearing design is adjustable for the pin entry (as BB points out), then you can just lay in the pin pattern by eye with no other marks being made. You're not done, because there are still the end grain continuation marks, to be made with another square. However, I like to gang the drawer sides in 2's or 4's, and may need the other square to get enough reach anyway--so having the full right angle built into the gauge is not quite as useful to me as having the full pin defined by the gauge. On the other hand, I can certainly see the advantage of having the full right angle defined by one gauge, depending on how one works.

The above sounds way more pedantic and serious than intended--they're both great designs. And beautiful work shown in both styles.

Thanks for the excellent thread!

Wiley


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 May 2008)

Wiley wrote:


> I don't want to spend much time laying out the dovetail pattern. Would rather make it up on the fly and get to the sawing.



Hi Wiley

Well, if you layed out your dovetails like this, then you will only need to mark a single line!  












Of course, you do need a very thin-bladed marking knife if cutting tails first :wink: 






Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Wiley Horne (29 May 2008)

Derek,

Beautiful work! You're right about the ease of marking, and for some drawers I like pin entries as fine as a 1/32" knife blade will permit, as you are showing. Then other situations it looks more right to me to have some weight in the pins. Either way, the drawers will be ganged in 2's or 4's first, and only the near drawer marked. 

Where there will be more than 3 full pins, I like to grade the pins rather than use equal spacing. In that case, I'd rather do it by eye, and that is where the Wearing type gauge is a handy design tool. One can try a spacing very quickly, then erase and make changes quickly, without losing any important marks. 

All that said, what I really like about the T style gauge that you made, is that one can have a number of them (easily) in different ratios. So for example, here is a small drawer in a Federal style lady's table:

http://traditionaltools.us/cms/index.ph ... m=35&pos=0

In this case, the pins were made 1:5, a ratio I ordinarily never use. But. The Seymours made their lady's tables that way--1:5 with thin pin entries--so I copied their dovetail pattern. That's a case where I would love to have had a series of gauges of the type you have made right at hand. Of course one can always use a bevel square, but it turned out that Richard Kell's marker had 1:5 on one side, so used that instead.

Well, it's an endless topic, and the various gauge styles each have their uses.

Your original query was 'how would the Wearing type gauge compare with the Cosman type gauge?', and I hope some insight has been brought out on that score.

Again, beautiful work, on both the dovetails and the gauges you have made.

Wiley


----------



## Harbo (29 May 2008)

There's a post on the other forum that Bob Wearing is seriously ill in hospital and his family have had to sell his workshop and furniture?
Sad news.

I love his little book.

Rod


----------



## Paul Chapman (29 May 2008)

That is, indeed, very sad news, Rod. I met him once at a woodworking show many years ago, where he had several of his workshop devices on show. A truly delightful man and so willing to pass on his wealth of knowledge.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Paul Chapman (29 May 2008)

Wiley Horne":27tvqn56 said:


> a Federal style lady's table



That's quite stunning work, Wiley.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Wiley Horne (29 May 2008)

Paul,

Thank you. That project was a learning prototype and has a bunch of flaws, but I learned a lot from doing it. One of the things I learned had to do with the dovetail pattern on the drawers. The Seymours (a father and son transplant from the Ax area of England to Boston in the late 1700s) used a 5:1 ratio on the pins of those drawers. I don't know that they used a ratio, maybe they used direct linear measure, but it works out to 5:1. Anyway, having been indoctrinated into 7:1 and 8:1 by constant repetition, I couldn't understand the 5:1 by a master cabinetmaker. However, when you make the drawer, you realize that, since there is but a single whole pin, the use of 5:1 solved some problems that 8:1 would not have. The use of 5:1 created enough mass in the pin to give it strength, and give it the appearance of strength so it looks right, yet still have a fine pin entry. The lesson for me was that this master maker saw deeply into what he was doing, and adapted the details to suit the situation. He used shallower dovetail ratios elsewhere in his constructions, for example in the case joinery.

One other thing....I am much remiss in not remarking on Derek's little knife, that he shows in his example above. Recently, I received in the mail from Perth just such a knife, along with another gift of some hard-to-find bitstock pieces. I hope this is not breaching Derek's privacy too much....The knife has a most beautiful and solid ferrule detail--round brass stock slotted to grip the blade, wrapped by brass ferrule with a neat chamfer detail--and is handled from local western Australian timber. That little knife has a great feel to it, and an excellent design. It is a totally satisfying design, and one well worth emulating.

Wiley


----------



## Harbo (30 May 2008)

Wiley - there has been a spate of knife making on the Forum inspired by Derek and a Blue Tree company  

Rod


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 May 2008)

Hi Wiley

That inlay work is just so amazing! I have marvelled at it on several occasions. Inlay is something that I have done very little of and now I have two end tables to work on. Thanks for the inspiration.

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Paul Chapman (30 May 2008)

Thanks, Wiley, that's very interesting.

Rob Stoakley is also rather a dab hand at knife making. I have one of his and it's superb. Maybe he'll post a few pics for you :-k :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## bugbear (30 May 2008)

Wiley Horne":1924yaqi said:


> Anyway, having been indoctrinated into 7:1 and 8:1 by constant repetition, I couldn't understand the 5:1 by a master cabinetmaker. However, when you make the drawer, you realize that, since there is but a single whole pin, the use of 5:1 solved some problems that 8:1 would not have. The use of 5:1 created enough mass in the pin to give it strength, and give it the appearance of strength so it looks right, yet still have a fine pin entry. The lesson for me was that this master maker saw deeply into what he was doing, and adapted the details to suit the situation. He used shallower dovetail ratios elsewhere in his constructions, for example in the case joinery.



Kirby's dovetail book (which is a tad slow in pace, but VERY good) claims that in most uses a dovetail joint is so over-kill-strong that your choice of spacing, size and angle can be principally guided by aesthetic considerations. He says that he normally uses "angles" in the range 1:5 though 1:7, a statement eventually reflected in my two (meep, meep) Dalziel made templates.

BugBear


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 May 2008)

Wiley wrote:


> The use of 5:1 created enough mass in the pin to give it strength, and give it the appearance of strength so it looks right, yet still have a fine pin entry.



BB replied


> Kirby's dovetail book (which is a tad slow in pace, but VERY good) claims that in most uses a dovetail joint is so over-kill-strong that your choice of spacing, size and angle can be principally guided by aesthetic considerations. He says that he normally uses "angles" in the range 1:5 though 1:7



(He also noted


> a statement eventually reflected in my two (meep, meep) Dalziel made templates.


 , to which all I can add is "You rotten swine you!". :lol: 

The dovetailed pine boards in my above pictures were completed at 1:5 (or 5:1 if you insist :lol: ). My general preference for drawers is 1:7 (as 1:8 is too skinny). However I used 1:5 in this workshop cabinet carcass as I needed to strengthen the pins as much as possible. 

I think that one tends to forget (not visualise) what the cut pins look like and, instead, concentrate on the cut tails, especially if you cut tails first. The pins of a 1:7 or 1:8 board with skinny tails would be so fragile that they would not lend any strength, indeed any credibility to Kirby's contention.

This was clear to me later - too late - that such widths are better suited to hardwood pins, not softwood. (having said this, the cabinet in question is very rigid as it is reinforced by sliding dovetails).

Here are the cut pins. Note that the board is 3/4" thick:












I imagine that Kirby is not referring to such slender pins, but something more substantial, say 1/4"-1/2" wide at the apex.

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## bugbear (30 May 2008)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I think that one tends to forget (not visualise) what the cut pins look like and, instead, concentrate on the cut tails, especially if you cut tails first. The pins of a 1:7 or 1:8 board with skinny tails would be so fragile that they would not lend any strength, indeed any credibility to Kirby's contention.



Well, yes; if you push things to extreme extremes (!), even a dovetail isn't strong enough.

But Kirby's point remains; a dovetail joint is so strong as to allow a substantial (but not unlimited, as you say) envelope of aesthetic choice.

BugBear


----------



## Wiley Horne (30 May 2008)

Well, 1:5 is a typical recommendation for softwood, so Derek is in the mainstream, particularly with the tiny entries. And more particularly for use in a carcase.

Where Ian Kirby says to "let aesthetics govern", surely he is talking about dovetails one can see--like drawer dovetails, as opposed to carcase dovetails that are generally concealed behind moldings*. For drawers, I think his contention stands as stated, because the dovetail joint is 'overkill strong' for a drawer**. In the case I was mentioning (Seymour's lady's tables), it happens that 5:1 is more aesthetically pleasing than a skinnier pin or skinnier two pins, and I suspect that's why it was used by Seymour, even though joining hardwood components. 

So most likely everybody is right (<.

Wiley
_____________

*Or secretly mitered, like those ones Rob hid from us in his last F&CM foray.

**So long as the drawer is working as designed--if it gets stuck in wet weather and the owner decides to yank it the heck out of there anyway, cause he needs those car keys, who knows what happens then.


----------



## bugbear (30 May 2008)

An entirely reasonable, thoughtful and well expressed post.

You're very new to internet forums, aren't you 

BugBear


----------



## Anonymous (30 May 2008)

I have to remark on Derek's pencil holder. 





You've dating yourself, amigo. :lol:


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 May 2008)

Roger, I sometimes look up old posts on the BP CD and see the familiar names there. Then there are some that just seem to have disappeared, never to be heard of again, and I wonder where they are?

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## woodbloke (30 May 2008)

Paul Chapman":2u8bmwd8 said:


> Thanks, Wiley, that's very interesting.
> 
> Rob Stoakley is also rather a dab hand at knife making. I have one of his and it's superb. Maybe he'll post a few pics for you :-k :wink:
> 
> ...



...as requested:






Chisel will be collecting his at West Dean tomorrow - Rob


----------



## paulm (30 May 2008)

Chisel will be collecting his at West Dean tomorrow - Rob[/quote]

Yep, sure will, can't wait, thanks Rob !

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Wiley Horne (30 May 2008)

Those knives that Rob made are just killer. Lucky folks to be receiving them. Everything he does shows high professionalism and taste.

Wiley


----------



## Paul Chapman (30 May 2008)

And I was lucky enough to get one that Rob made earlier. A little smaller but perfectly formed  






Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Wiley Horne (30 May 2008)

Beautiful, Paul!

Wiley


----------



## Harbo (30 May 2008)

And here's one I made from African Blackwood - blade from a Stanley knife.






Rod


----------



## paulm (31 May 2008)

Nice one Rod

Cheers, Paul


----------



## frugal (31 May 2008)

Harbo":2seomi3o said:


> And here's one I made from African Blackwood - blade from a Stanley knife.



There was an article in British Woodworking issue 5 by Alan Wood about making some very scary looking dovetail marking blades from stanley knives.


----------



## PaulO (2 Jun 2008)

woodbloke":r58j2dib said:


> ...as requested:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fantastic.
Are you making the ferrules yourself, if so, how? Do you have any photos of their construction?

I have a range of marking knives I use, from a swann-morton through, Chester Toolworks, Blue Spruce and a Hock marking blade (as yet without a handle fitted).

Most of them have their time and use, but I have yet to find one that I could call a favourite.


----------



## woodbloke (2 Jun 2008)

PaulO wrote:


> Are you making the ferrules yourself, if so, how? Do you have any photos of their construction?


The ferules are commercially available...I bought a pocket full of 12mm from the Ashley Isles stall at Yandles a while back. The final polish on the knife is achieved on the leather wheel of the Tormek after finishing on the lathe with some worn 320g. I'm just about to start another couple in ebony and got the blanks roughed out last night...one will have a grip rather similar to a traditional barrel shaped fountain pen - Rob


----------

