# 1st proper project - HELP!!



## BHwoodworking (18 Nov 2019)

i have been tasked with making a shelving unit ( (hammer) ) and would like some help. i was thinking 18mm ply would be OK for the best part of it. B&Q do it pretty cheep if you have a trade card. or would using ply be shooting myself in the foot?

i need a table saw 1st though.

should i use pocket hole and glue for the best part of the assembly or what?

any help would be apreciateD


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## Yojevol (18 Nov 2019)

Some rough dimensions would be helpful. What are the shelves going to support, heavy books? What's the situation? Is it going to be painted?
Brian


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## thetyreman (18 Nov 2019)

when you say unit, how many shelves? what size? what design?


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## sunnybob (18 Nov 2019)

B&Q are at the lowest end of the quality spectrum for wood.
If youre thinking of just clear varnish it might be worth finding better quality at a woodyard.
If its going to filled, primed and painted, then theres no problem.


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## MikeG. (18 Nov 2019)

You don't need a table saw. A simple hand-held circular saw and straight edge is fine for breaking down sheet material into usable sizes. Any table saw that can handle sheet materials is going to occupy a huge amount of space and cost a lot of money. 







If you use ply then you'll need to do lipping. Have you done that before?

Don't ever buy wood or wood products from B&Q. Ever. Find you local builder's merchant, or timber merchant, and start there.

No, pocket holes will show in your completed project, and look terrible. You need to house out for the shelves.

_Edit..._

If you're really 15, then you might just give us an idea of what projects you've tackled to date, what sort of kit you have, and what sort of workspace you have.


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## sunnybob (18 Nov 2019)

I think at 15 he's not legal with ANY power tools :shock: :shock: =D> 

Be careful lad, powered saw blades are very unforgiving. :roll: :roll:


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## Trevanion (18 Nov 2019)

As what's already been said, the stuff you'll find at rip-off merchants such as B&Q will be of poor quality and very high price usually, you'd be better off looking for an alternative supplier such as a proper builders merchant which stocks decent plywood (not shuttering ply!). Alternatively, you could also call around with local joiners and cabinetmakers and scrounge for some off-cuts of plywood if you're not looking for anything too particular if you're going to paint it or something like that, If you're planning on persuing a job in the trades once you leave school it won't hurt to have networked with some local craftsmen anyway 

Personally, I would forget about the pocket screws. They have their place in some jobs but you can't beat traditional methods for the strongest and best lasting work and if anything it can be easier to work traditionally with proper housing joints since they self-align and are very easy to produce.

As Mike said, give us a scope of what equipment you have access to right now and that'll help us advise you on the best way to tackle the job. If it's a straightforward bookshelf kind of shelving that can be done completely with just a regular hand circular saw and some very rudimentary hand tools and be done to a very high standard.


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## BHwoodworking (18 Nov 2019)

MikeG.":9994xms0 said:


> _Edit..._
> 
> If you're really 15, then you might just give us an idea of what projects you've tackled to date, what sort of kit you have, and what sort of workspace you have.



i am really 15!

i have (list as follows)

18V makita drill and impact driver
Tackwise pinner
router
sander
210mm miter saw.
RP DMLSH36SH Mk2 lathe
makita 240v jigsaw
and varied hand tools.

all in a garage

and things like a play house for my sister, an outdoor mud kitchen for the same person, various hollow forms for mum, some shot glasses, a few bookends, varied wooden guns and some planters (oh and a chopping board) and many other projects that i cant remember. ive been butchering wood since i was 6.


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## BHwoodworking (18 Nov 2019)

sunnybob":2945c1ad said:


> I think at 15 he's not legal with ANY power tools :shock: :shock: =D>
> 
> Be careful lad, powered saw blades are very unforgiving. :roll: :roll:



ask anyone ive worked with. i dont . about with power tools. ive seen 25 year olds using tools in more dangerous ways. and i have seen the dammage saw blades can do. its very nasty.


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## BHwoodworking (18 Nov 2019)

BHwoodworking":8m7ee8hi said:


> sunnybob":8m7ee8hi said:
> 
> 
> > I think at 15 he's not legal with ANY power tools :shock: :shock: =D>
> ...



sorry. that sounded really arrogant. i will happily admit i have a lot to learn and will learn from anyone. appoligies if i upset anyone


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## Trevanion (18 Nov 2019)

You've basically got all the kit you need to make something decent without spending too much extra cash to get there.

In an ideal world, a circular saw would be best for breaking down a sheet of plywood into smaller pieces, but you could totally do it with a jigsaw if you're patient and use new sharp blades. Mark a line which you want to cut to, follow the outside of the line with the jigsaw trying your best to cut to the line rather than cutting on the line, which may sound confusing but you want to leave the line on rather than cut through it. You can true up any wobbliness in the cut with a hand plane presuming you've got one and then you can cut the pieces to length with your mitre saw. With all the pieces cut you can trench out the housings with a router against another straight edge of plywood that's perpendicular to the edge of the plywood to give a straight cut across your shelves, you may need to put a packer in between the router and the straight edge to give the desired width of the groove. Drill holes through the housing to the outside of the shelves, countersink the holes for the screws, glue it up and screw it together.

Something I learned when I first started out is to practice patience, it doesn't come easy but once you've become patient you can really create good work rather than trying to complete work as quick as possible.


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## MikeG. (19 Nov 2019)

Many builder's merchants have a panel saw, and will cut your sheet materials for you. It's often a free service, but sometimes attracts a small fee. These saws can have a stop set so the resulting pieces should all be the same size. If you can find a place offering such a service, then take advantage of it.

Ply isn't the easiest stuff to make furniture from, because of the edges. As I said previously, these will need lipping in solid wood. Have you thought about using MDF? Moisture resistant MDF can have just a painted edge, and this would save you a lot of work compared with lipping. However, the downside is that MDF isn't as strong as ply so you'll need to have your shelves supported at closer intervals. Again, an idea of your design will help.


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## BHwoodworking (19 Nov 2019)

MikeG.":x83t4gjy said:


> Ply isn't the easiest stuff to make furniture from, because of the edges. As I said previously, these will need lipping in solid wood. Have you thought about using MDF?



TVM for the advice everybody.

@MikeG ive tried using MDF before and i find it nasty to work with. it may just be personal preferance but i'd rather use ply.

And on that note

does anyone know a decent timber merchant in the harrogate area? i know of duffeald timber (great place) and AFIK they dont to ply? so could anyone help in that respect

oh. and here are the plans





EDIT

sizes updated


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## The Bear (19 Nov 2019)

Hi
How about something like this. I made this a few years ago immediately after moving house when all my machines and some of my power tools were in storage. Only power tools used were a router to house out the back, elec drill driver and track saw (which i used for cross cuts, your mitre saw would do that). Its 2 x25mm hardwood ply boxes with 6mm backs. All ply cut to dimension by the timber yard. The 2 boxes can be separated easily to move the unit if need be. The front face frame is softwood in whatever finished sized Champion had, it was designed to accommodate standard sized stock. Shelves are 25mm ply with a front lipping hung on adjustable pins, they're not fixed through the sides. That shelve of cookbooks is very heavy, this project is 5 years old, there is no noticeable sag in that shelve.
Build a simple plinth and head trim and your done. You have the tools you need to build something like this, you sound like you have the skill


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## BHwoodworking (19 Nov 2019)

ok cool.

i have been looking to get a track like this
https://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technol ... p-ax975938

i dont know if they are any good

i was thinking it would be helpful for ripping sheets and suchlike and things like trenching with router.

does anyone have one or simmilar?


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## Yojevol (19 Nov 2019)

> i have been looking to get a track like this


That is just a self clamping straight edge. You could do the same with a straight batten and a couple G-clamps at no cost


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## MikeG. (19 Nov 2019)

BH,

firstly, your images aren't showing, so we have no idea what you are proposing. Secondly, stop falling into the trap of thinking you need new kit. You don't. Discuss the stuff which is mission-critical, as I believe some people say these days. Trivia about new tools is for another day.

What you need to do is settle on a design, and to work out how to best deliver that design. As I said in my previous post, slicing ply up can be done at the point of purchase, or, as I said in an earlier post, you can clamp a straight edge to the work and push a circular saw along against it. That is not the issue. The issues are these:

- how are you lipping the ply? 
-how are you planning to join the corners of the outer box together (ie form the structure)?
-how are you planning to support the shelves at the uprights?
-how are you planning to rebate the back edge to take the back panel?

Secondary issues include:
-will you want a face-frame?
-do you want to raise the bottom shelf off the floor on some sort of plinth/ skirting arrangement?
-will there be a pediment/ cove?

Show us your design and most of those questions answer themselves. You have a design and construction issue here, NOT a tool issue, so it is difficult to understand why you keep talking about tools, and don't talk about your design proposals at all.


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## nev (19 Nov 2019)

Hi BH
Your images don't show because the (img) tags are use to link to a pic hosted elsewhere. You need to use the upload attachment function from below the save draft / preview/ submit buttons (don't forget to click the 'add the file' button.)

more info in the picture guide at the top of the forum page picture-posting-guide-t63716.html#p1138049


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## That would work (19 Nov 2019)

I would second what Mike has said about having the sheet cut for you at a builders merchant, just give them a cutting list/diagram showing how you want it all cut from the sheet. I would say that simple but well made is always best. Stick to what you know you can do by hand as far as possible.


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## BHwoodworking (19 Nov 2019)

MikeG.":3bxdgvel said:


> BH,
> 
> firstly, your images aren't showing, so we have no idea what you are proposing.
> 
> ...



sorry about the immages. i cant get them to work.

i was going to paint it so i'm not sure what lipping to do

i am going to support the shelves at the uprights

i was thinking about trenching out the backs a bit to make the shelves sit in a bit.

sizes are

Front - LH - 1660mm 
base is 1000mm 
RH is 740mm
the main base is 350mm deep then 400mm up it recesses to 200mm with shelves every 300mm high.

sorry if not clear. it is correct that it is lop sided.

i will put a face frame on. (what would be the best wood for this?)

and for clarification there is a bit of storage underneath that is 350mm deep and the area that is slightly reasesed has a lid to get to it.

it will just sit right onto carpet.


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## Stanleymonkey (19 Nov 2019)

Definitely agree with getting a yard / merchant to cut them for you.

It's nice to have the first step already done and done accurately. The day you plan on cutting that sheet of ply down it will be -10 degrees and a month's worth of rain will have fallen the night before and you will be cursing as you slide down to the garage.

Make a small toolbox / parts box first and practise the skills. Rebate that and learn from any mistakes before you go to a large project. You'll end up with a useful box and a bit more knowledge.

Good luck - hope the pictures load up soon. Get some advice, help and supervision with the router please. They go round a couple of hundred times every second. No one's brain or reflexes work fast enough when you mess up with one of those. You just get a massive scare and normally do something stupid as well.


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## MikeG. (19 Nov 2019)

BHwoodworking":2zsx1mqn said:


> ........sorry about the immages. i cant get them to work.



Nev has told you how, 4 posts up.



> i was going to paint it so i'm not sure what lipping to do



You can't just paint the edge of ply, it looks terrible. So, you have to glue a piece of timber on to the edges. The issue is that it is quite a skilled thing to plane and sand that back to being perfectly flush with the top and bottom such that the junction doesn't show through the paint.



> i am going to support the shelves at the uprights



Is there another way?  So how? This is the number one design decision of the whole piece of furniture. Traditionally, shelves are either housed into the verticals, or they are supported on proprietary supports, including, for instance, brass banjo supports.



> i was thinking about trenching out the backs a bit to make the shelves sit in a bit.



That's highly unorthodox, because it would force you to have a really thick, heavy back. Shelves are normally supported at the ends only.



> i will put a face frame on. (what would be the best wood for this?)



Poplar/ tulipwood is the usual paint-grade timber, but you can also use standard pine (AKA redwood), which will probably be cheaper, and in PAR form will be available in the size you require thus saving you a whole lot of work.



> it will just sit right onto carpet.



It's trivial at the moment, but is critical that the top of the shelf unit is fixed to the wall, usually with a small bracket, otherwise they can easily topple forward. This is especially so when they sit on carpet, which is obviously soft and flexible, providing an unstable base.


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## Lons (19 Nov 2019)

BH
Take note of the advice given it's all good, continue asking questions and keep an open mind, you'll never stop learning and will develop and adapt methods that suit you.

Good luck with your woodworking adventure, I bought my first power tool when I was 12 using paper round earnings.  

Above all, stay safe!

cheers
Bob


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## TheTiddles (19 Nov 2019)

BHwoodworking":1pn5bnmo said:


> BHwoodworking":1pn5bnmo said:
> 
> 
> > sunnybob":1pn5bnmo said:
> ...



What you've just bumped into is age discrimination, personally I'd rather see a teenager with a circular saw than some fuddy-duddy with poor eye sight getting in a car, at least the teenager will only hurt themselves. You might well already have more experience than many people on this forum.

You have one huge advantage these days that's developed over the last 25 years, you can see the world's combined woodwork design experience on the Internet for free and learn from it, you used to have to borrow/buy out of date books or buy ridiculously expensive magazines to see a handful of mediocre projects (and the odd very rare exceptional one). You're also getting great advice here so to add mine (if you want it)...

1) spend a bit of time designing it well and in general it goes much better
2) buy good materials (if you can)
3) buy good tools (if you can)

You might find a local member who's willing to help you out, there's a lot of kind people out there

Aidan


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## Bm101 (19 Nov 2019)

While I agree with Mikes comments. If you are in need of a means of cutting sheet then i have one of these bought used on here. Its brilliant. 
https://www.screwfix.com/p/bosch-gks12v ... gJswfD_BwE

By chance. Lidls have their version in store today for £25. Qiarter of the price. Look online on here under advanced search options for reviews.

Cut an edge off a sheet of mdf. Use that as a cutting guide. Its free.
Good luck. Love to see your efforts good and bad.


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## Bm101 (19 Nov 2019)

Just a thought. I dug out an old stanley blockplane from a joblot from the shed last weekend. 110 or 120 maybe? It's in a state but not car crash measures. Needs cleaning up but I'll chuck in some citric acid. It's yours for nowt. Upgrade the iron mind. Just saying.
Pm me your address. 
Regards. 
Chris


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## BHwoodworking (20 Nov 2019)

nev":3d7d6hvv said:


> Hi BH
> Your images don't show because the (img) tags are use to link to a pic hosted elsewhere. You need to use the upload attachment function from below the save draft / preview/ submit buttons (don't forget to click the 'add the file' button.)
> 
> more info in the picture guide at the top of the forum page picture-posting-guide-t63716.html#p1138049



its just some very rough plans.

ive made some better ones on setchup

TVM


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## BHwoodworking (20 Nov 2019)

Bm101":rg1us71m said:


> While I agree with Mikes comments. If you are in need of a means of cutting sheet then i have one of these bought used on here. Its brilliant.
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/bosch-gks12v ... gJswfD_BwE



thanks for the idea.

just one hitch

i only run makita 18v so i might get one of theres or a corded one


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## MikeG. (20 Nov 2019)

If I'm reading your diagram correctly you are planning on metre long shelves. Is that right? If so, I would be very nervous of doing metre long unsupported shelves in ex-inch thick oak, and ply just won't do it *(here's the Sagulator, where you can put the numbers in yourself). You need to reduce the span somehow.

* You need 25mm ply for the shelves, fixed into housings at the verticals, before you can make ply shelves work for that span. Inch ply costs an absolute fortune.


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## Rich C (20 Nov 2019)

On the whole subject of lipping ply, can you just bash a bit of filler on the edge, sand smooth and then paint? Or does that not give a good finish?


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## AndyT (20 Nov 2019)

Rich C":281m5aoh said:


> On the whole subject of lipping ply, can you just bash a bit of filler on the edge, sand smooth and then paint? Or does that not give a good finish?



Of course you can. Or with half decent ply you can make a feature of the edges. Or you can use iron on edging and spend some time trimming it back flush - cheap in materials but takes a while with ordinary tools.

One of the many unknowns about this project is what level of loveliness is required - is it to be a feature in the living room or utilitarian storage in the attic?


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## BHwoodworking (20 Nov 2019)

its for my room. its going to be hidden in the corner.

ive spocken to ma and pa about it and they suggested using pine board and buisceting of doweling it together to make it into a bigger sheet. would that be suitable.

Does anyone want me to put a skechup file on?


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## MikeG. (20 Nov 2019)

Much better. Solid timber will be so much easier, and so much stronger. You can do proper joints.

And yes to a proper drawing.


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## BHwoodworking (20 Nov 2019)

how can i get it on a skechup file on here?


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## BHwoodworking (20 Nov 2019)

here are some picture. tallest edge is 1660mm and the shortest edge is 740mm the width is 1000mm

the top of the storage area is 400mm from the base.

the shelves have also been moved closer together

they are now 250mm apart. i haven't done any of the fixings other than the bottom ones for the storage area


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## BigMonka (21 Nov 2019)

That looks like a cool project, although the angled housings on the slanted slide might be quite tricky to get accurate.
The other thing I'd mention is that with shelves spaced at 250mm you won't be able to stand up anything A4 (which is 297mm tall) or A4 folders which are even taller. Just something to think about as being a student you may have a few things like that to store.


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## Rich C (21 Nov 2019)

Good point on the shelf spacing - I put up a set for larger books and files recently, they are 320 mm apart (top edge to bottom edge) which seems about right for A4 sized stuff.


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## AndyT (21 Nov 2019)

That design _might_ be achievable but it's unusual and challenging, because that slanting support on the right hand side will be tending to collapse, rather than taking the weight of the shelves.

If you make a cardboard mock-up (which could be half size) from cartons and gaffer tape, you'll get a practical feel for how it will behave.

The little triangular spaces on the right hand side won't be much use for storage, so ask yourself if you'd be better off designing them out.

One option would be for a stack of separate boxes, in graduated sizes, as big as would fit the space.

They'd be much easier to make while you are gaining experience and they'd be potentially more useful in future, as they would not be so tied to the one room.

You'll be able to find designs for boxes designed to stack - search for barrister's bookcases - or just make them plain. They are often glazed, but don't have to be. Roy Underhill did a nice version here which is worth a watch

https://video.unctv.org/video/the-woodw ... for-books/


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## BHwoodworking (21 Nov 2019)

BigMonka":11os5qe7 said:


> That looks like a cool project, although the angled housings on the slanted slide might be quite tricky to get accurate.
> The other thing I'd mention is that with shelves spaced at 250mm you won't be able to stand up anything A4 (which is 297mm tall) or A4 folders which are even taller. Just something to think about as being a student you may have a few things like that to store.



these were going to be holding paper backs like biggles as non-fiction war stories e.g. red platoon, sniper one so on and so forth


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## BHwoodworking (9 Dec 2019)

erm.. on again.

does anyone know of a decent timber merchant that you don't have to pay through the nose for?
Preferably near the HG postcode.

just as the Xmas holidays are coming up and i'll need to get my hands on it before then for something to do in the hols.

(is titebond 1 suitable for this sort of project?)


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## Raymond UK (9 Dec 2019)

Have a look for laminated pine boards. I use it all the time and pay £25.00 a sheet (3000x600)


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## BHwoodworking (10 Dec 2019)

Raymond UK":3s3j68ga said:


> Have a look for laminated pine boards. I use it all the time and pay £25.00 a sheet (3000x600)



where do you get it from?


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## Raymond UK (10 Dec 2019)

I get it from my local wood shop. 

It’s called laminated pine which is solid pine strips glued together to make a board.


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## BHwoodworking (10 Dec 2019)

ok.

would somewhere like travis perkins do higher quality stuff or am i better off going elsewhere


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## Raymond UK (10 Dec 2019)

Not sure if TP sells it. I would talk to your local supplier and see if they can get it in.

The main importer round our way is Optimum Timber in Mexborough.

Where are you located in Yorkshire? If you're close you're welcome to pick one of my off cuts up so you can get a feel working with the stuff. I've got a few off cuts from this years Xmas toy boxes.... :roll:


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## BHwoodworking (11 Dec 2019)

harrogate


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## Raymond UK (11 Dec 2019)

A bit far. Sheffield


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## woodbloke66 (11 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":n7ura5t9 said:


> You don't need a table saw. A simple hand-held circular saw and straight edge is fine for breaking down sheet material into usable sizes. Any table saw that can handle sheet materials is going to occupy a huge amount of space and cost a lot of money.


Agree with Mike; a tablesaw is unnecessary and this is exactly how I slice up rough boards into manageable sizes. You can even do this on the floor with a couple (three is ideal) bearers underneath the plank if it's too large to manhandle which happened to me once or twice some years ago - Rob


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## Raymond UK (11 Dec 2019)

I agree. You can get quite far with just a circular saw and a straight edge. 

I use my cordless circular saw everyday to cut boards of pine into manageable pieces but I couldn't be without my table saw.

I mainly make toy chests and use a circular saw for the cross cuts and a table saw for the rip cuts. If it weren't for the limited width of cut size on my table saw and the size of my workshop I'd cut everything on the table saw.

Still waiting for Lidl to bring back their track saws


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## Lons (11 Dec 2019)

Sound advice about the saws.

I have a reasonable workshop and a cast iron table saw which I use a lot but it's useless for cutting large sheets unless I buy a sliding table which takes up far too much space so I use a track saw which does the job perfectly. 
Very accurate and by using the initial scoring setting and 2 passes I get absolutely no breakout on either surface.
Mine is a Makita but a number of forum members recommend the Lidl version so well worth consideration before parting with any cash.

Bob


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## BHwoodworking (12 Dec 2019)

i have been considering saving up to get a tracksaw first.

ive used dewalt and festool and festool is by far my favorite.

what is makita comparable to?


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## Lons (12 Dec 2019)

BHwoodworking":3s8ajvoa said:


> what is makita comparable to?


 Bosch, DeWalt and Festool I guess. The Makita track is I think compatible with the Festool track.
This is the saw https://www.axminster.co.uk/makita-sp60 ... r-ax656310
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

I just couldn't convince myself that the Festool kit was worth £200 / 50% more than the Makita version and I've found nothing with my saw that's changed my opinion.

Immediately after paying for it so I wasn't influenced the sales guy said I'd made the right decision in his opinion as during the previous 6 months they'd had no Makitas returned for repairs but did have 5 Festool, of course I don't know what the sales figures were and you know what they say about statistics. :wink:


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## BHwoodworking (12 Dec 2019)

thanks.

just quite a few friends have festool (which they speak very highly of) and i didn't like the dewalt.


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## Raymond UK (13 Dec 2019)

I don’t have any Festool tools. (Probably due to the price of them)

I do own quite a lot of Makita tools and the only thing ever gone wrong over the last 15 years is the electric brake on both mitre saws. Not bad going. 

Also, Makita still has the widest range of battery tools.


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## Bm101 (13 Dec 2019)

No pressure but I've got an unused lidl saw gathering dust. All there but no box. Never used. Bought in error by my Mrs. If you fancy it for a good price to save me faffing about trying to sell it elsewhere let me know. It's in the way in my shed and while the lure of the big brands can be strong if it's just for occasional use at first might well be good enough. It gets good reviews for new at it's price point. Theres a few threads on here I think. Be less than that for a quick sale from me. 
I picked up a one handed smaller saw which is better for my purposes with sheet timber hence it never being used. 
Regards
Chris


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