# NEEDED. Patiant people to advise on w/shop planing and build



## garywayne (7 Feb 2007)

Hi all.

I need to get a work shop built as soon as pos. At the moment I am drawing the plans. As I am now staying in this house, what would be the best base, a concrete base with floor joists on top, or concrete piers with a wooden floor? I have a plot of 10' X 26'. I am also considering underfloor heating. Depending on the price.

(As I have mentioned in other threads, I lack self confidence and am always questioning myself whether I am doing things correctly or not. Basically, I am scared of making mistakes. Please, be patient with me).

All advice, criticism, and ideas will be greatly received. Thank you.


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## Adam (7 Feb 2007)

How much cash do you have? e.g. will it be built in stages as you can afford it, main unit first, insulation later etc... You may need to set out what exactly you are planning to "do" in your workshop, how many machines, how much light is required, will it be powered, watered? Does it have to look attractive, secure? Is it close to the neighbours? Is noise a problem? Do you want a roofspace? Is the garden sloped? Is the soil stable? Do you have any previous experience at building such things? Are you going to leave it if (when) you ever move? Will it be built on your own or with friends and family? Will it be used for anything else? E.g. lawnmowers etc? At that size, if it was in my area, (as its larger than 15m^2), you would have to be more than 1 meter away from any boundary, unless the walls were made form non-flammable material. If you look in my workshop thread (especially page 2), you'll see I terminate the concrete plinth exactly 1 meter from the edge. Pages 1 has some details of the concrete plinth I used. https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 348#160348

I think it would help if you let us know your requirements first. 



Adam


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## wizer (7 Feb 2007)

I think if I was doing it on a grassed area I would put down a slab of concrete. However concrete columns would probably be easier, cheaper and just as good.


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## garywayne (7 Feb 2007)

> How much cash do you have? e.g. will it be built in stages as you can afford it, main unit first, insulation later etc...



About 53 pence. :lol: But in the bank I have enough to build a big shed with a floor and insulation, etc.



> You may need to set out what exactly you are planning to "do" in your workshop,



Make furniture. It's my first w/shop, so I don't know exactly what I'm going to do.



> how many machines, how much light is required, will it be powered, watered?



I would like a T/saw, Planner/thicknesser, bandsaw, bench mortiser, compound sliding miter saw, router table (on the bench), and a lathe. once the w/shop is built, I can see what I can fit in.

As much light as practical.

I would like to run water in. But I'm not sure yet. I would run the electric and water to the site before I did anything else.



> Does it have to look attractive, secure?



It doesn't have to look attractive, but it has to be neat, and secure.



> Is it close to the neighbours?



It will be near my boarder fence. I will leave enough room to get all around for maintenance.



> Is noise a problem?



Not really. With the noise my neighbours make. As Jonsey would say, "stick it right up em".



> Do you want a roof space?



Figure it in for the future perhaps.



> Is the garden sloped? Is the soil stable? Do you have any previous experience at building such things?



Very slightly.- Probably not.- Nope. It's going to be lots of fun. Oh, and tears.



> Are you going to leave it if (when) you ever move?



It looks like were here till death




That's why I am considering underfloor heating.



> Will it be built on your own or with friends and family?



All on me lonesome. My wife will help as much as she can. (When she is not at work. Bless her).



> Will it be used for anything else? E.g. lawnmowers etc?



No bloody chance.

Does this help at all.


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## SketchUp Guru (7 Feb 2007)

If I were building a shop I would put down a heated slab. Be sure that you insulate beneath the slab and thermally separate the slab from the surrounding footing walls. A wood floor would be nicer to stand on but would reduce the efficiency of the radiant in floor heat. Wear appropriate shoes and get some rubber floor mats or carpet scraps for areas where you might tend to stand alot.

If you have the room, plan also to pour a concrete apron outside a large door so that on nice days you can work with the doors open and even roll tools or benches out when needed.

I would also plan for at least on run of dust collection ducting in the floor to a central location where your tablesaw would sit. I would actually plan a trench with covering panels so the ducting could be installed later and so that there would be easy access. I would also run power for the tablesaw in that trench. Conside what other tools might be located on the centerline of the shop and plan for power in the floor to them. Also conside the possibility of plumbing in air lines in case you want to use pneumatic tools.

If I could afford it I would use insulated concrete forms for the walls. I don''t know if this is an option for you but if it is, I would suggest you at least investigate it. You get high R-value (insulating value) and the neighbors won't have to suffer listening to your power tools at 5:00 am. They are ready for sheetrock or whatever you want to put up on the inside (wiring is laid in trenches cut with a router). The outside can be finished with stucco or siding or brick veneer or....

It would also be easier to secure because you don't have to worry about someone cutting through the back wall while you're not home and making off with your tools.

I would build the roof so it is open in the center and put in some skylights for nice even illumination.

Several electrical circuits would be nice. I don't know how electric codes are there but I would split duplex outlets so each was on a different circuit. Of course the electrical service panel would be in the shop near the door.

Windows would be double-paned with blins in between the panes. Keeps the blinds clean and the dead air space makes for could insulation. doors would be insulated and would have locking rods built in so the doors would difficult to break through.

While I'm spending your 53p, I would put in gold plated plumbing and hire a maid to come in once a week .


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## DomValente (7 Feb 2007)

Yes, DaveR beat me to it, if I was to build the ideal workshop the extract trunking would go under the floor, with easy access.
It takes up space but is a necessary evil so hide it away.

I'm always impressed how our American friends are far more technologically advanced than us and can usually adapt more easily to a difficult problem . I guess we tend to think, well that's how it's always been done rather than, let's try something different.

Stands back and hides behind wall awaiting onslaught. 8-[ 

Dom


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## Shultzy (7 Feb 2007)

garywayne, Lets start with the base. Two methods spring to mind:-

1 - solid concrete base
2 - concrete slabs

Both need shuttering, set level all the way around. 
Dig out 10"" (for concrete) or 7 1/2" (for slabs), fill 4" with hardcore (old bricks or stone) and compact with "waker" plate rammer, add 2" sharp sand in 1" layers and compact. You can lay the slabs directly on to the compacted sand of if using concrete lay a DPC then 4" concrete. You can put a layer of steel mesh in the bottom of the concrete for extra strength, but I don't think this is necessary for the load that will be put on it.

I would go with the slabs method as it requires less manpower. Concreting is a two or more man job, I seem to remember 1 cubic yard is 30 barrow loads.

When we've sorted out the base for you we can move on with the next part.


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## Nick W (7 Feb 2007)

A method I have toyed with using in the past (but never quite got to using, but I still think that its a damned fine idea) is Lego style polystyrene moulds into which you pour concrete. See here for one such product.


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## SketchUp Guru (7 Feb 2007)

Nick W":3852onop said:


> A method I have toyed with using in the past (but never quite got to using, but I still think that its a damned fine idea) is Lego style polystyrene moulds into which you pour concrete. See here for one such product.



Yep, that's what I was referring to with the insulated concrete forms. They are pretty slick. Concrete is said to be up to 30% stronger because it cures more slowly.


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## Paul Chapman (7 Feb 2007)

Dave R":nj8n5a1y said:


> Nick W":nj8n5a1y said:
> 
> 
> > A method I have toyed with using in the past (but never quite got to using, but I still think that its a damned fine idea) is Lego style polystyrene moulds into which you pour concrete. See here for one such product.
> ...



They featured a house built with that stuff on 'Grand Designs'. Looked like really good stuff, and fast.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## SketchUp Guru (7 Feb 2007)

Paul Chapman":3rbwqbpe said:


> Dave R":3rbwqbpe said:
> 
> 
> > Nick W":3rbwqbpe said:
> ...



I spoke with a fellow near here who built a two story house with a full basement. He used ICFs all the way up to the roof line. He put radiant infloor heat in the basement floor and a furnace for forced air (you still need ductwork for air conditioning so you might as well put in a furnace) for the rest of the house. He got the house closed up in the fall and did the interior work on it over winter. He only heated the basement floor and used the blower in the furnace to circulate the warm air through the rest of the house. He said that was enough heat to keep the house comfortable for working in. He also remarked on how quiet it was inside and how he didn't hear the cars going by on the road.


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## MrJay (8 Feb 2007)

I was going to post something sensible last night. There's so many aspects to building a workshop that it became a candidate for unwieldy post of the year award.

The best bit of the post though was...



Me":5o0kfj6j said:


> sheds > tools >rust > eak!!!



...which got me wittering on about insulation and things. Anyhow...

Those concrete blocks reminded me of building with straw bales. In all seriousness I reckon straw bales might well be the ultimate workshop building material. Cheap, easy, secure, lightweight, warm in winter, cool in summer, noise insulating, etc etc etc.


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## Paul Chapman (8 Feb 2007)

MrJay":iudl8goz said:


> Those concrete blocks reminded me of building with straw bales. In all seriousness I reckon straw bales might well be the ultimate workshop building material. Cheap, easy, secure, lightweight, warm in winter, cool in summer, noise insulating, etc etc etc.



They have featured on 'Grand Designs' as well and seem to be superb for insulation. The downside, however, would be that you would lose a couple of feet on each wall so for a workshop in an average garden they would simply take up too much space.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## OLD (8 Feb 2007)

Wood and water not a good combination for life of the wood. So i go for concrete base with poly dpc under and chip board floating over and a studding construction set and bolted with more dpc to the edge of the base so the cladding goes past the junction and keeps out the water the rest of the construction is up to you cladding type, insulation, inner wall lining just to your budget and requirement have a look at my www page its all easy when the base is done.


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## garywayne (10 Feb 2007)

Hi everyone. Sorry I have been so long. I have been busy around the house, and sorting out a reply.

O.K. This is where your patients comes in handy.

*Dave R said:-*


> If I were building a shop I would put down a heated slab. Be sure that you insulate beneath the slab and thermally separate the slab from the surrounding footing walls.



How do I construct a heated slab?
How do I go about insulating beneath the slab, and thermally separateing the slab from the surrounding footing wall?
What are the surrounding footing walls?

The apron idea outside the doors is great.

*Dave, and Dom.*
I like the ides of putting the extraction, and some electric in ducting within the floor. It will take some planing to sort out where things are going to go, when I don't even have anything yet, and can't buy until the shop has been built. "The tears have started".

*Dave said:-*


> If I could afford it I would use insulated concrete forms for the walls. I don''t know if this is an option for you but if it is, I would suggest you at least investigate it.



*Nick said:-*


> A method I have toyed with using in the past (but never quite got to using, but I still think that its a damned fine idea) is Lego style polystyrene moulds into which you pour concrete.



I think concrete form are a brilliant idea. I am still looking into it to see if I can go that way. Although it's initially expensive, the saving on heating bills should pay for it quite quickly.

*Dave said:-*


> I would build the roof so it is open in the center and put in some skylights for nice even illumination.



I had thought about skylights. The light where I'm building the shop isn't that good.
What do you mean when you say; "Build the roof so it is open in the center".

Regarding the electrics. I am going to run the electrics underground from the house, and up through the base so they come up just inside the shop wall, beneath where the fuse box will be situated.

*Dave said:-*


> Windows would be double-paned with blins in between the panes. Keeps the blinds clean and the dead air space makes for could insulation.



*Sorry Dave,* I don't understand.
Double-paned I take it to mean Double glazed.
What is in between the panes?

*Dave said:-* "Keeps the blinds clean"
Can you explain what you mean by this?

*Dave said:-*


> While I'm spending your 53p, I would put in gold plated plumbing and hire a maid to come in once a week .



WHAT! Just once a week?

*Shultzy*. You mentioned sharp sand. I always thought you should use builders sand, because it has no sharp bits in it that could puncture the waterproof membrane.

Are you sure that 4" of concrete will be thick enough?

*MrJay.* Straw bales are good if one has the room, but alas my plot is far to small to accommodate a straw building.

*Old.* Thanks for your input.
I was thinking of putting wood over the concrete base, but as I am hoping to have underfloor heating, as Dave sais, it would cut down the efficiency of the heating and cost more. Again, as Dave sais, a few rubber mats strategically strewn about, and a few beanbags... Sorry, my mind wondered a bit there. Yes, a few rubber mats would be good.

Thanks again for everyone's input.


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## Shultzy (10 Feb 2007)

Sharp sand is also called builder's sand, although the two terms are not technically interchangeable (sharp sand has a wider variety of grain sizes; builder's sand is mostly medium to coarse grained.).

What most people refer to as builders sand is what they use for mortar, sharp sand isn't actually sharp like glass it's course.

4" of concrete is plenty thick enough as 1 1/2 slabs would be, its the distribution of weight that determines the thickness. On top of the slab I would recommend a timber joist floor, this will distribute the weight.

I think that a heated floor is well over the top for a workshop as 1" of insulation in a wooden floor is ample.

When you have decided on the base type (slabs or concrete) I'm sure we can suggest the best way to go about constructing it.


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## garywayne (13 Feb 2007)

*Shultzy.* Thanks for clearing up the sand confusion.

I have decided to go for the concrete base with a wooden floor, and without underfloor heating.
Would it be a good idea to insulate the base? If so, do I just lay some 2" polystyrene before laying down the hardcore, or would I put it between the waterproof membrane and the concrete?

A question on electrics.
Before laying the base I am going to lay an electric feed. 

1) Bearing in mind I will have a table saw, what size cable should I have running from the house to the fuse box in the shop, and how deep should it be?

2) Should it be armoured cable?

3) Should the cable be run inside some sort of pipe? If so, would it be a good idea to drill holes in the bottom of the pipe to drain any water that might get into the pipe?


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## Adam (13 Feb 2007)

Bearing in mind I'm not an electrician, my thoughts. At the same time, if you add a circuit like this you should either A) have it done by a Part P certified electrician, in which case their is no need to tell the council, or B) Notify Building Control, pay the fee, and then either 1) do it yourself or 2) get an electrician to fit it to BS7671.

1) Bearing in mind I will have a table saw, what size cable should I have running from the house to the fuse box in the shop, and how deep should it be?

A great link for working this out is here 

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/C ... eDrop.html

However I used 6mm. The length of cable is important to voltage drop.

2) Should it be armoured cable?

If its underground. Yes. I used 3 core, so that I could return the earth in the third connector. It is acceptable to use 2 cord, and use the armour as the return earth path. I believe 450mm is the approximate distance. Its slightly open to intpretation though I think. 450mm is considered to be more than two spade depths. Important if you are going to be digging your flower beds through. Under a lawn, perhaps 1 spade depth would be enough but you may have to argue the regulations yourself. I'd sink them 450mm if it was me.

3) Should the cable be run inside some sort of pipe? If so, would it be a good idea to drill holes in the bottom of the pipe to drain any water that might get into the pipe?[/quote]

No, but adding some sort of pipe you can get other cables through later may be a good idea. I'd certainly like CAT 5, Burglar alarm and telephone cable in there as well. Interference may be a problem, but at least you can rig up a buzzer of intercom if you need it.

Adam


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## MrJay (13 Feb 2007)

Shultzy":3o48eikc said:


> Sharp sand is also called builder's sand, although the two terms are not technically interchangeable (sharp sand has a wider variety of grain sizes; builder's sand is mostly medium to coarse grained.).



Builder's sand has small grain sizes, and a high clay content - ie even smaller grain sizes. Sharp sand has big angular grains and a low clay content. Though obviously there are lots of applications for builders using sharp sand, if you ask for builder's sand you'll get a bag of soft sand, not sharp.

God I'm pernickity.


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## Shultzy (21 Feb 2007)

Sorry in not replying sooner Gary, I've been on holiday for a week.



garywayne":3a42yi5d said:


> Would it be a good idea to insulate the base? If so, do I just lay some 2" polystyrene before laying down the hardcore, or would I put it between the waterproof membrane and the concrete?



No need to insulate or put down a waterproof membrane, is not the base of a house  

On top of the concrete base put engineering bricks down, @18" ctrs, under where the joists will be. Lay a DPC on top and then put your wooden floor down. If you pin hardboard under the joists, you can put the insulation in and lay the floor boards on top.

Adam has covered the electrics admirably, my only comment is put a plastic tube through the concrete base with a cord (to pull the cable through). If you decide to lay the cable higher than 18" cover it with narrow concrete slabs.

I'm going to lay the cable and all the electric sockets and lighting and then get an electrician the check it and make the final connections (why pay an electrician to pull cables and fix boxes as its his YTS who usually does it).


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## Benchwayze (10 Mar 2007)

Hi there,
If you go to abebooks (not the American one) you will find a number of listings for the following small book.

Setting Up Your Home Workshop (ISBN: 0852429096) 
Bray, Stan 
Price: £ 19.00 

I assure you that, although this book is aimed at 'engineering-types', there are loads of ideas, and constructional notes that you will find invaluable. There's a good section on the legal side of building a workshop, but maybe some of it will be out of date.
I've had my copy for a few years now, and I never realised it was worth almost £20.00!!!

Whatever you build, make sure it's as big as you can afford, and don't forget, you might want some heavy machinery one day, so plan a floor that will take the weight.

Good luck
JW


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## garywayne (20 Mar 2007)

Hi everyone.

Sorry I have not replied for so long, the wife went to the states to see her son, been on my own.

I have finished sorting out the wardrobe, and will soon start on the shed/workshop soonish. I think I will go along with Shultzy's idea with the base and floor. My only question is, wont the hardboard shrivel up and die after a rather short time, or is there a way on treating it?

When it comes to laying the base plate, how do I lay the long sides. Do I just but the ends together, or is there another way to join them?

I'll see if I can edit this with a drawing to explain it better.

ATB Gary.

Here's the pic:-







I hope this makes more sense.

ATB Gary.


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## Shultzy (28 Mar 2007)

garywayne, not sure that the hardboard will decay as it isn't going to get wet as its on a DPC and under the floor. If you are worried just paint a preservative on it.

As your workshop is going to be 10x26, I would make the floor frames 10' x 8'8" (easier to move on your own) and then bolt or screw together. This eliminates the need for scarf joints. 

This will be my floor (16' x 8'), viewed from the underside, without the hardboard on, but with the floorboards. You can see the two frame joins in the middle


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## garywayne (29 Mar 2007)

Hi Shultzy.

Thanks for putting my mind at rest.

Good idea of building the floor in sections.

Just to be an even bigger pain in the arris, I just might be having an "L" shaped workshop. Tonight My wife and I are going to finalise the position and size. I estimate it to be about 22' to 28' long by 12' wide, and the top section about 16' to 18' long by 12' wide. It all depends on how much of the garden I can talk my wife out of. Once that has been sorted, then I can finalise the plan and start building. I must admit I'm not looking forward to doing this with my gammy leg, but I am certainly looking forward to the experience.

Thanks again for your time and patients.
ATB Gary.


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## Adam (29 Mar 2007)

garywayne":tx57ojrd said:


> I must admit I'm not looking forward to doing this with my gammy leg, but I am certainly looking forward to the experience



In that case, start by building a good selection of trestles, and get some scaffold planks across to give you a working platform. No point picking everything up over and over again. You can build the whole lot at a good working height. I ended up chaining my Mitre Saw and my compressor to a tree, rather than carry them up and down each time, merely throwing some tarpaulin over each evening. 

Consider getting some assistance, family & friends can easily be persuaded, especially if its only an hour or two, like moving timber from a driveway to a working area. I've asked my neighbour to help on a couple of occasions, when you just "need" a two man lift, and it only takes 10 minutes. If you only ask friends/neighbours occasionally, then it doesn't become a burden. You can then spend lots of time in between doing preperation, cutting, screwing together etc.

I also got some hired help on two occasions now. £10/hour, for perhaps 10 hours on the whole build. £100 well spent having someone that you can order about, for decent periods of time, without feeling bad about the tasks they are getting. My labourer is a friend from work and its worked out well. You may wish to consider liabilities etc, if you are letting people loose on your power tools etc.

Adam


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## Shultzy (29 Mar 2007)

garywayne, With an "L" shaped workshop you need to work out what type of roof structure you want as this will influence the roof truss design. If you make everything in manageable panels this will help in the construction.

I would suggest that you start drawing up a construction plan. This will help determine what to do when, ie. cut all timbers to length for one panel, or for all panels. Can you store all your materials on site or do you have to have multiple deliveries. How much tarpaulin do you need etc.


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## garywayne (30 Mar 2007)

Adam.

Thanks for your thoughts.
I like the trestle idea.

Shultzy.

I didn't even give the roof a thought. I will have to cross that when I come to it. I just wanted to get as much garden out of my wife as possible. All the same, I will be having a pointy roof.

Does anybody know how easy it is to build in skylights?

Thank again guys.
ATB Gary.


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## SketchUp Guru (30 Mar 2007)

Gary, skylights shouldn't be a big problem to build. If you don't need them to open you should be able to frame in after the trusses are up. Just make sure you seal them well and make it possible to remove them without tearing out the roof if you ever need to repair them.


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## Shultzy (31 Mar 2007)

garywayne, most roofs are "pointy" (except the flat ones  ) and there is a lot of complicated joinery in making them.


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## garywayne (3 Apr 2007)

Dave thanks for the reply. I would prefer skylights that open, but if it is to difficult I will have to have static ones. I'll see when I get there.

This is the size and shape of the shed:-





The double door will be to the left. The roof will be a standard pointy one. Is it called a gable end roof?

I did mention patients didn't I? Before I commence with the shed I need to repair the fence which includes 13 concrete posts and 12 panels. First I have to remove and dig out the original fence. Oh what fun.

I will build this shed.
ATB Gary.


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## Adam (3 Apr 2007)

Are those measurements in inches? And is that you house peeping in at the corner?

If so, and its that close, will you fall foul of its proximity to your house in terms of it being classed as an extension?



> Note: in all cases, if your new building would have a
> volume over 10 cubic metres and come within 5
> metres of the house, you need to be aware that it
> could be treated as an extension (and its volume
> ...



From here http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/445/P ... 500445.pdf


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## Adam (3 Apr 2007)

garywayne":bwgfdlau said:


> Before I commence with the shed I need to repair the fence which includes 13 concrete posts and 12 panels. First I have to remove and dig out the original fence. Oh what fun. I will build this shed. ATB Gary.



Keep at it. I too had to do the fence first. In fact I had to do it first for the previous workshop too. I'd highly recommend doing featheredge. Its a lot more forgiving, and simpler than panels. https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 679#172679 You also don't have to "finish" any set amount in a day. So you can adjust your progress to how you are feeling. 

Adam


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## garywayne (3 Apr 2007)

Hi Adam.

The bit jutting into the picture is the yet to be built conservatory.

Inches? Yes.

Thanks for the quote, I will have to read it slowly a few times before I fully understand it.

Regards the fencing. I was wondering what type to use. I do want something substantial. Featheredge is a good idea, thanks.

I shall now go away have some lunch, and contemplate the building regs.

ATB Gary.


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## Shultzy (3 Apr 2007)

garywayne, There are a number of different roofs that you could use. The gable end, hip and valley or the pent roof(only slopes on way). You will need to choose one before you can calculate how much material you will need.

Check this page out for the hip and valley roof.


http://ca.geocities.com/web_sketches/hi ... tches.html


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## SketchUp Guru (4 Apr 2007)

Here's a quickie for Gary. Low quality render due to the low powered machine I have here at work.


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