# Router Table Fence Design



## Neomorph

As I'm in the process of building myself a router table I was thinking about designs of fences that I've seen. Most of them use a pair of T-Track embedded in the table and the fence is connected to these with two T-Nuts and lobe nuts. Looking at this setup it's obvious that it is virtually impossible to move the fence back in parallel.

Looking at the other end of the scale there is the Incra that attaches to the center of the fence but this looks like there could be a small amount of play at each end. Also the size of the mounting on the table means that it limits the amount of movement. that the fence can travel.

Contemplating this I tried to come up with a way to make the fence run parallel but allow full use of the depth of the table. I threw out several ideas as being to unwieldy but then I happened to glance over at a table that had some bits and pieces for another project I'm working on. There sitting in plain view was a full extension ball bearing drawer runner. :idea: 

My idea is that the runners are embedded into the router table top and there is a central T-Track used to fix the fence at the desired distance. The runners will ensure the fence is kept parallel and if I can figure out how to fit an extender it could mean that I could even use the fence right up to and past the back end of the table top. This would mean it would be easier to run dados on panels.


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## Anonymous

Neomorph":33h24l7e said:


> Looking at the other end of the scale there is the Incra that attaches to the center of the fence but this looks like there could be a small amount of play at each end.



I have owned the Incra ultra for over a year now and there is absolutely *NO* play what-so-ever at any end or at any point, so don't write it off for that reason neo.


When I was considering building my own, I bought some linear bearings form RS components to provide accurate and repeatable movement. Possibly this is a good approach to consider?


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## Neomorph

Tony":2jjslm5r said:


> I have owned the Incra ultra for over a year now and there is absolutely *NO* play what-so-ever at any end or at any point, so don't write it off for that reason neo.
> 
> 
> When I was considering building my own, I bought some linear bearings form RS components to provide accurate and repeatable movement. Possibly this is a good approach to consider?



OK... consider me corrected. :lol: Mind you I should have guessed it was superb considering the press it gets and the price it costs. For £260 it's gonna be good.

Now the main reason I was looking for a "budget" fence was that I'm building one for my brother in law's birthday present. I like him but not enough to spend £260 + the rest of the router table heh. The other reason is that I want to use my table for dado cutting but I suppose I could do that hand-held with a straight edge clamp. One thing I do want this fence to do is be able to allow for jointing distance on the outfield like some of the more expensive ones do.

I think I'm going to have a go and mock one up in Sketchup to see what will work. Trying to go for as accurate as possible while being as cheap as possible is my aim. Usually it's either one or the other but I still think I could knock one up that will do the trick.


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## RogerS

Tony":1r10dsi6 said:


> Neomorph":1r10dsi6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was considering building my own, I bought some linear bearings form RS components to provide accurate and repeatable movement. Possibly this is a good approach to consider?
Click to expand...


Damn you, Tony :lol: :lol: Just when I thought I'd worked out all my alignment methods/tools and fittings you just HAVE to go and spoil it by introducing me to summat else to think about. :wink: :lol: :lol:


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## johnelliott

I make my own router tables, especially as I need to have one for each job (so as to avoid setting up time), so have three at the moment. I would like to offer these thoughts-
I wouldn't bother with the drawer runners as they are designed to allow for some out of parallel movement.
For cutting grooves parallel to the edge I think you are better off using the router hand held with a fence running on the edge. This is easy to control and you will end up with a groove of constant depth. This is difficult to achieve with a router table as the problem is to keep the material flat onto the table.
Maybe the easiest way to provide for the "jointing distance on the outfield" would be to use a shim made from plasticard, sold in model shops and of various thicknesses eg .5mm
John


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## Neomorph

John, I can guarantee you these drawer runners are exceedingly accurate as they are meant to extend the drawer out to the full and support 100lbs while doing so. I had my doubts like you John as I hadn't heard of anyone else using drawer runners so I did a quick test to see and connected two pieces of MDF and moved the floating piece back and forward. At all times the two pieces were perfectly at 90 degrees with no play at all. This means I can actually have a ruler at one side to measure the seperation. 

The shim idea sounds ok but would mean I would have to have a shim for every amount that I want to use. Seems a bit of a bodge really but a good idea if you were only using one or two.

BTW.... THREE ROUTER TABLES???? Damn I'm jealous already... :shock: I hardly have room for one let alone three heh. What are the three different jobs? Horizontal, Vertical... and ????


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## Nick W

Now I'm going to duck as I say this, but does anyone actually use a router fence for jointing, and therefore need the outfeed fence adjustment :?: 

I only ask because:
1) I never have
2) I can't imagine any situation under which I would

A router, although extremely useful, (and don't get me wrong I use them a lot and for some jobs there is nothing better), is noisy. I have a jointer and use that in preference as it is quieter. But this is always followed by the use of a hand plane. If for some reason the jointer is not available (or I can't be bothered to move it from its parking place) then I will use a hand plane on its own, as I would if I didn't have a jointer.

I may be missing something here :shock: but I just don't see the point.

OK, I will now retreat into my handy nuclear bunker, and await incoming fire.


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## Nick W

BTW there was a very fine router fence design in FWW No. 144. See here for details.


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## engineer one

i bought one of those ryobi cheap kits which included a table. nice casting, but the fence is a complete waste of space. it has lots of adjustments, but no real way to ensure that the travel is square and stays that way, the nuts do not seem to keep it very tight. caused me all kinds of problems with some panel doors i was making. finally had to cut them again on the table saw, since they were in mdf no loss no foul.

surely the way to ensure accuracy and tightness in channel is to use flat sided bolts which do not rotate, and springs to ensure tightness.

final thought. drill a series of holes in pairs from the back of the table to about 3 inches behind centre of router. next make your fence backing plate a flat piece of mdf about 4 inches deep. make sure that you have drilled holes in this the same width as on the base. now put a couple of square blocks on the lower piece. capture a nut horizontally in this. 
and screw a nut into it. make the nut at least 1to 1 1/2 longer than the wood. now fix the upright fence in a couple of places with silver steel rods. then you can use a spanner to move the bolts in and out, and the fence will stay parallel. 

can't be much "cheaper" than that, and should always be accurate, when it stops being so, replace fences.

haven't tried this on a router table, but on other things for metalworking, and it works so why not???
paul :wink:


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## Nick W

Oh, yes, and another thing... :wink: 

I have an Incra fence, and it is great but (and you knew there was a but coming didn't you :wink: ) two things have persuaded me to replace it with a home-made one - when I get the time :roll: 

It takes up a lot of room. The front to back depth is huge, particularly when compared with a conventional fence. In most workshops this will contribute to the ever present space problem.

It will set precisely to 1/32" increments. Now this is great until ... you start using metric bits. OK, so the fence _can _be adjusted to any setting using the fine adjuster, but this takes time, and leaves the fence out of adjustment for any other size of bit. You _can _get metric doofers to replace the imperial ones, but that only gives you the problem the other way round, _and the increments are 1 whole mm_ so no good for bits with odd sized diameters (e.g. 15mm). Also the templates for all the fancy joints are only available in imperial, so they become useless.

If you plan to do a lot of imperial size joints, particularly the nested ones that the Incra jigs excel at, and have a tardis-like workshop, then there is no better jig (IMHO), go out and buy one. Better still buy mine when I have made my new fence.  

However for more general, mixed use it has problems.

Now, about these linear bearings ...


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## Neomorph

Nick W.. I haven't got a jointer and have limited space and never even thought about using a router table as a jointer until his highness the :norm: mentioned it on one of his programs. Thinking on what John and you have said Nick I think you are right and only a shim will be needed.

And the nuke bunker??? nah... I posted here to discuss options and I'll take any and all advice given. I'm very much a beginner here and the experience people here have got a lot to offer someone like me. My main two problems are 

 Money (limited amount as I'm disabled and don't work) and 
 Space or more pertinant the lack thereof. I only live in a 1 bedroom flat with a small garden that has a 10' x 6' shed for my workshop.

Those two factors mean that if I can combine more than one function into a workstation then it saves both space and money. In fact my router table will also house an upside down jigswaw to make it a freehand shape cutter that would normally be done with a bandsaw. So the router table will be three things in one if you count the jointing function. 

I've also told my friend that during the summer he can help function as a bobbing sander... I'll fit a drum sander to my drill press and he can raise and lower the drum while I move the work around it. 8)

Nick, what you said about the space the Incra takes up on the table is one reason I didn't like it... but when you add in that it's imperial... ugh! 

Hold on... Imperial... That means America still thinks it's part of the British Empire???  I think it must be a punishment for dumping all that Tea... :lol:


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## George_N

Nick W":7ce12e4a said:


> Now I'm going to duck as I say this, but does anyone actually use a router fence for jointing, and therefore need the outfeed fence adjustment :?:
> 
> I only ask because:
> 1) I never have
> 2) I can't imagine any situation under which I would
> 
> A router, although extremely useful, (and don't get me wrong I use them a lot and for some jobs there is nothing better), is noisy. I have a jointer and use that in preference as it is quieter. But this is always followed by the use of a hand plane. If for some reason the jointer is not available (or I can't be bothered to move it from its parking place) then I will use a hand plane on its own, as I would if I didn't have a jointer.
> 
> I may be missing something here :shock: but I just don't see the point.
> 
> OK, I will now retreat into my handy nuclear bunker, and await incoming fire.



Like Neo I don't have a jointer and the router table is a good way of cleaning up the edges of MFC off the table saw to remove chip out...and you don't need to stand the panel on edge.

George


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## Nick W

George,

Ah yes, MFC (and other plastic-bearing wood substitutes :wink:  ). 

OK there's one. Any more for any more?


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## Anonymous

Nick W":u83yv2cj said:


> Now I'm going to duck as I say this, but does anyone actually use a router fence for jointing, and therefore need the outfeed fence adjustment :?:



Good question Nick. 
When I made my first router table about 8-9 years ago, I made the fence so that it could be split for jointing. Never used it to joint. 

When I got my second (purchased commercial model) router table, the fence was designed to allow jointing but I never did.

My third table uses the Incra and I can't joint with it - strangely, i don't miss the facility :lol:


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## RogerS

Tony":3ggapfaf said:


> Nick W":3ggapfaf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm going to duck as I say this, but does anyone actually use a router fence for jointing, and therefore need the outfeed fence adjustment :?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good question Nick.
> When I made my first router table about 8-9 years ago, I made the fence so that it could be split for jointing. Never used it to joint.
> 
> When I got my second (purchased commercial model) router table, the fence was designed to allow jointing but I never did.
> 
> My third table uses the Incra and I can't joint with it - strangely, i don't miss the facility :lol:
Click to expand...


Strange? Can this be the same Tony who in another post said



Tony":3ggapfaf said:


> I have used my Ultra 24 for a year now and think that a split fence would be a great advantage. I might even make a wooeen facing for it to allow it to split


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## dennyk

Just to throw throw the cat among the pigeons

I have the Ultra Jig 24, on my homemade router table size 50" x 30",
I attach the Incra Intellifence to the Ultra Jig, as it is fixed to a base that fixes to the router table by way of threaded inserts, I can align the Ultra either across the table or along the lenght of the table, this gives me the choice to place it in the position most suitable to task at hand.

I have a Router lift fitted into the table in such a way that I can place wide boards on the table to allow for cutting dado's and forming moulding on the edge of table tops.

I also occasionally use the setup for jointing when I only want a midges taken off a piece of wood.

For all other planing I use my Tendo P/T

I also use my Utra Jig on my TS with the standard Fence for repetitive cuts


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## RogerS

Denny...you echo my thoughts exactly. Any pictures? Very interested in your approach to dado's.

Roger


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## Neomorph

Denny those inserts method sound excellent. Any chance you could get a pic and post it here?


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## colinc

Roger Phebey of Woodworkersworksop has just sent me details of what I believe is the newly re-introduced Incra 'Original' Jig. He stocks the other models too, and from my experience I'd say his customer service is second to none.

to quote from his literature:

"We're glad the Incra Universal Precision Positioning Jig is back. And if you want a tool that gives you fast, reliable, and repeatable fence positioning that won't cost you and arm and a leg, we think you'll be happy too. Remember that the original Incra Jig is available at Wood Workers Workshop for £90.00 and the price includes VAT and delivery by Business Post next day courier service."

If you want details I'm sure Roger will pass the document along:

CONTACT: Mr. Roger H Phebey 
Sales: 0845 1659 244 Office: +44 (0)1491 629 699	
email: [email protected]
url: www.woodworkersworkshop.co.uk


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## Chris Knight

Dunno what he means by the original. The original Original had no fine adujst and was extremely basic!


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## Anonymous

Neomorph":oqdafca7 said:


> ... but when you add in that it's imperial... ugh!



err, no again neo. They come with imperial scales OR metric although I had to order mine for an additional £6 which included metric toothed racks too


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## tibbs

Yep - that would be this I think (from Rocklers website)







Seems rather pricey - I think I'd rather spend the extra £60 & go for an Ultra Lite.


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## Anonymous

Roger Sinden":wvfcui77 said:


> Tony":wvfcui77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nick W":wvfcui77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm going to duck as I say this, but does anyone actually use a router fence for jointing, and therefore need the outfeed fence adjustment :?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good question Nick.
> When I made my first router table about 8-9 years ago, I made the fence so that it could be split for jointing. Never used it to joint.
> 
> When I got my second (purchased commercial model) router table, the fence was designed to allow jointing but I never did.
> 
> My third table uses the Incra and I can't joint with it - strangely, i don't miss the facility :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Strange? Can this be the same Tony who in another post said
> 
> 
> 
> Tony":wvfcui77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have used my Ultra 24 for a year now and think that a split fence would be a great advantage. I might even make a wooeen facing for it to allow it to split
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


True Roger, true

However, I did not say this when discussing jointing, it was to allow me to use wider cutters such as panel raisers (as I'm sure you know :wink: :lol: )

Rest assured, I do not intend to make the Incra usable for jointing


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## RogerS

Actually, Tony. that's a good point you make. We sometimes focus on a split fence moving back and forth but not necessarily sideways...as in your suggestion.


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## Nick W

Tony":23etrpfc said:


> Neomorph":23etrpfc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... but when you add in that it's imperial... ugh!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> err, no again neo. They come with imperial scales OR metric although I had to order mine for an additional £6 which included metric toothed racks too
Click to expand...


Tony, you are right that you can get metric racks, however you cannot get metric templates. From the Incra stite:


> Q. Are any of your Jigs available with metric capabilities?
> 
> A. If you want to convert your Jig to metric measurements, you can purchase the metric positioning racks directly from Taylor Design. The cost is $6.95 for 5 metric racks (1mm increments) plus a 16" 430mm long scale for use with your metric racks.
> 
> *Please note that any Incra joinery templates you have will not be able to be used with the metric racks, as the templates are printed for 1/32" increments.*


unless this information is out of date. (The bolding is mine by the way.)

And it would still leave a problem for those who have a mixed bag of metric and imperial bits (not that I keep _mine _in a bag you understand :wink: ), and the problem of the odd-sized metric bits.


On the split fence issue I stand firmly on the side of having one, I just don't need the outfeed fence offset facility.


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## Neomorph

lol... thanks for all the info guys... much appreciated.

It's funny that I literally just got off the phone to Roger (I was ordering some mitre and T-Track) when Colinc mentions him in this thread. 

Wierd.

Actually we were talking about home built router tables and fences and such and he was saying that the fence he suggests cost £85 and his comment was "it's a bloody good fence". I should have got the name of it off him but I forgot while yattering away. I wonder if it's that Incra Colinc mentioned.

Anyway I've got to get around to deciding what I want to do this weekend as I want to finish the build next week.


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## Neomorph

Well I finally finished designing my fence. I said I was going to finish it at the weekend but it ended up being finished at 5:30am today (monday). All I can say is thank god I don't work. :lol: 

All I have got to do now is build the silly thing and I can't do it until the remaining hardware arrives from Woodworkers Workshop. I will cut the wood (using dust mask of course) and do what I can without the T-Track and knobs but I'm guessing it will be the end of the week before it gets finished.

Here is how I hope the finished article will turn out...


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## Chris Knight

John,

A suggestion: Angle the inner edges of your two fence pieces to creat a dovetail profile into which you can slip sacrificial inserts. These are useful for zero-clearance jobs. At present, it looks as if the edges are angled in an opposite sense.


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## Neomorph

waterhead37":2zemm7bf said:


> John,
> 
> A suggestion: Angle the inner edges of your two fence pieces to creat a dovetail profile into which you can slip sacrificial inserts. These are useful for zero-clearance jobs. At present, it looks as if the edges are angled in an opposite sense.



I'm not quite sure what you are on about... What actually is a zero clearance job... I'm pretty much learning on the job here and hence why I'm doing the designing before starting to build the thing so please forgive my ignorance here.



Edit: I just watched Norm build his Deluxe Router Station and he has his fences cut at 90 degrees. I dunno what made me think they were chamfered. I think I thought that it would aid in chip collection. Still I'm intigued by what you mean about sacrificial inserts. Do you mean a way to add temporary addons to the table that get chomped on so there is no gap between the router bit and the fence? Do you know any examples on the net I could have a look at?


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## Neomorph

ROFL....

Here is me designing a all singing and dancing fence and then I decided to have a break and go look at the Woodworking channel to see what it's like... and there they are using router tables without fancy fences. All they use is a piece of low friction plastic and a couple of clamps. :shock: 

God I'm such a noob lol.

EDIT: WTF... Is someone up there taking the pee... They just setup a jointer fence out of a single piece of low friction plastic with the outfeed area 1/8" in. To set the fence they used a piece of wood against the outfeed side of the fence and then just moved the fence over until it touched the bearing on the router bit. God that so simple and works so damn easy. I'm now thinking twice about building my fence. 

Damn that "The Router Workshop" program... the only one I watched and it took the pee out of my design. :?


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## LyNx

I have a piece of ply with a couple of clamps 8)


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## tibbs

Hi Neomorph

There's a fairly dry description here without any pictures.

Theres a commercially produced system by Jointech here that should show you the principal - just imagine the fancy plastic insert is a piece of MDF with ends angled so they lock into similarly angled ends of the two halves of the fence (in a kind-of sideways french cleat fashion)


















Richard


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## Jake

The CMT fence has fences and zero-clearance of exactly the sort Chris refers to. Some info that might help here (albeit not the clearest pictures of the dovetail arrangement):

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/table-6.htm


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## Neomorph

tibbs":3vaulkq6 said:


> Hi Neomorph
> Theres a commercially produced system by Jointech that should show you the principal - just imagine the fancy plastic insert is a piece of MDF with ends angled so they lock into similarly angled ends of the two halves of the fence (in a kind-of sideways french cleat fashion)



Ahhhhh... Now I know what you mean. Yup... You are right on the money when you say my fence is the wrong way for that... I'll redesign it shortly. Just as a matter of interest where would you use something like that?


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## Alf

The trouble with The Router Workshop one is there is absolutely zero provision for guarding or dust extraction...

Cheers, Alf


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## Neomorph

Alf":22xt8rmc said:


> The trouble with The Router Workshop one is there is absolutely zero provision for guarding or dust extraction...
> 
> Cheers, Alf



True but at least with their method I can use my router table to help build the router fence... and you got to admit it's cheaper than a £300 Incra fence :wink:


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## Chris Knight

John,
Richard (Tibbs) and Jake explained nicely what I was on about.


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## Anonymous

waterhead37":dhlkgxea said:


> John,
> Richard (Tibbs) and Jake explained nicely what I was on about.



Nice idea Chris :wink:


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## Neomorph

waterhead37":2gpblmys said:


> John,
> Richard (Tibbs) and Jake explained nicely what I was on about.



Well here is the altered fence to take into account adding the sacrificial insert later. Actually doing it highlighted a few problems in my previous version so I didtched it and hopped back to the original 1.6 version and updated it so I need to thank you for that too.


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## Neomorph

pipper... Can anyone see the problem adding the featherboards caused?


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## Nick W

You won't be able to use the outfeed one when jointing?

Just stick it on spacers.

Same goes for the cutter guard.

BTW how is the fence attached to the table, and how will you adjust it backwards and forwards?


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## Neomorph

Nick W":1d991r8y said:


> You won't be able to use the outfeed one when jointing?
> 
> Just stick it on spacers.
> 
> Same goes for the cutter guard.
> 
> BTW how is the fence attached to the table, and how will you adjust it backwards and forwards?



Bang on the money. I redesigned a featherboard with a shim behind it (I know, I know I was going to do away with shims lol). The router guard I completely missed until you mentioned it Nick. I also found that the vacuum box area was too narrow and would end up not being able to fit a panel raising bit. That's the beauty of Sketchup... if you screw up you don't waste any wood heh.

Fitting the fence to the table is going to be an experiment. I'm going to use some bearing guided shelf runners to keep the fence parallel. Then on the one side use a T-Track and a bolt/lobe nut to fix it in place. I'm waiting for the runners to come from my supplier so I can test them on some old black ash chipboard before I fit them to the real table though as others have expressed doubt. Hell the runners were cheap enough (£2.38 + vat) so if they don't work I can actually use them for drawers anyway.

These are the ones I've ordered -> Ball bearing Full Extension Runner/Slide L=250mm/10" (Pair). Hopefully it will mean I can lock the fence with a single bolt. If not it will still be worth a try. If nobody experimented we wouldn't even have routers would we heh.


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## Ed

Hi Neomorph,

Nice looking fence! 

Where are you planning on placing the drawer runners? On the side of the table or in the top surface? Would dust be an issue getting in the runners?

Not sure if you know this site, but lots of info here on using drawer runners as cheap linear bearings: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15768

Cheers

Ed


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## Neomorph

Ed":1ie651wp said:


> Hi Neomorph,
> 
> Nice looking fence!
> 
> Where are you planning on placing the drawer runners? On the side of the table or in the top surface? Would dust be an issue getting in the runners?
> 
> Ed



I had the very same thought when I was testing a mockup out of my old chipboard furntiture. I was going to use the runners embedded into the surface of the table but no longer. I found that after only a short time that dust was escaping and hiding in the recess. Possibly when using the extractor it would be less of a problem but I'm not going to chance it. I'm probably going to fit them recessed into the sides like you say.

Thanks for the link by the way.

Edit: I've now come to the conclusion that I'm going to recess them under the table sides. That way they are well out of the way of any dust that escapes the vacuum.

I just want to say that the comments and advice I have received from members of this forum have saved me from a whole heap of grief if I had just gone ahead and built the fence from an earlier version. I would have ended up with a fence that wouldn't allow panel raising bits, would have gotten the runners jammed up with dust, would have found that the router guard and featherboards wouldn't have worked with the table in Jointing mode... and many other problems. Without you I would have had to rebuild the fence from scratch it had so many faults with it.

This is the reason we need a designing forum area... to help other people with designing stuff. I've found that when designing you get a type of tunnel vision and it's only someone outside who can spot errors that are right in front of you. 8)


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## LyNx

> I've now come to the conclusion that I'm going to recess them under the table sides. That way they are well out of the way of any dust that escapes the vacuum.




Got any pics, can't get my head around that one :? 

Andh


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## Neomorph

LyNx":134kumz1 said:


> I've now come to the conclusion that I'm going to recess them under the table sides. That way they are well out of the way of any dust that escapes the vacuum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Got any pics, can't get my head around that one :?
> 
> Andh
Click to expand...


I'll post some shortly... Just working it out...


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## Neomorph

Well here is the latest design for the fence plus table top. There are a couple of dust diverters at the sides where the drawer runners are hidden. Hopefully it any escaping dust will be prevented from fouling the ball bearings this way.


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## LyNx

hmm, i still don't see where you are fitting the runners. Are they under the light grey panels either end??

Andy


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## Neomorph

LyNx":32un8k4c said:


> hmm, i still don't see where you are fitting the runners. Are they under the light grey panels either end??
> 
> Andy



This shows where the runners connect to the fence






Here it shows where I've removed the fence (the runners unclip) and folded the table top.


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## LyNx

Ahh, right i see.

What length runners did you get for this?? As you have to extend the runner fully to allow you to remove the i 'think' you may have a problem :-k 

Andy


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## Chris Knight

John,

I think there is a danger of getting carried away here! IMHO, you are over-engineering the thing without addressing a critical issue with router table fences which is positioning. That is where something like the Incra comes into its own.

There are of course many solutions other than the Incra and I had one (cheap but effective) for years which worked fairly well but as yet I don't see such a thing in your fence. 

I would rather have a simple strip of wood that I can quickly and easily place in the correct position than any other form of fence that is hard to position.


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## Neomorph

Waterhead the positioning factor is the reason I'm using the runners in the first place. If you want to use the mitre gauge strip your fence NEEDS to be exactly paralled to it. Using the ball bearing drawer runners means the fence will always be parallel to the gauge strip.

You also have to understand that I am going to be using it for Jointing and possibly using it for an inverted jigsaw as well (cheap bandsaw function lol) so keeping it parallel has been my major requirement here.


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## Neomorph

LyNx":3qnuyg54 said:


> Ahh, right i see.
> 
> What length runners did you get for this?? As you have to extend the runner fully to allow you to remove the i 'think' you may have a problem :-k
> 
> Andy



Oh pooh!

I just realised you are right as I hadn't included the rear panel in my test piece. lol.

Edit: Nope... Still works...you just slide the fence back before lifting it off and then folding the top down.


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## Anonymous

Neomorph":21rld1bo said:


> Waterhead the positioning factor is the reason I'm using the runners in the first place. If you want to use the mitre gauge strip your fence NEEDS to be exactly paralled to it. .



No it doesn't!!!!

It is not safe practice to run wood against the fence and the mitre.

It is bad practice to run the mitre gauge with wood against the fence. You should be using a small block of wood clamped to the fence to position the wood and then run the piece apst this block before engagin the cutter. 

The wood runs through the cutter touching ONLY the mitre gauge (not the fence)

I do agree that it is nice to have them parallel, but not essential nor really useful


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## Neomorph

Oh god... Tony you have just destroyed the only reason I thought to use the runners for...





Just goes to show what a total noob I really am...  

*goes off to self flagellate*

Time to simplify...


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## Nick W

Tony,

This might be a silly question but why is it bad practice? :?


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## Noel

Tony":11ft3li7 said:


> Neomorph":11ft3li7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Waterhead the positioning factor is the reason I'm using the runners in the first place. If you want to use the mitre gauge strip your fence NEEDS to be exactly paralled to it. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No it doesn't!!!!
> 
> It is not safe practice to run wood against the fence and the mitre.
> 
> It is bad practice to run the mitre gauge with wood against the fence. You should be using a small block of wood clamped to the fence to position the wood and then run the piece apst this block before engagin the cutter.
> 
> The wood runs through the cutter touching ONLY the mitre gauge (not the fence)
> 
> I do agree that it is nice to have them parallel, but not essential nor really useful
Click to expand...


It's established practice to use a mitre guage to run stock against the fence and through the cutter. The fence does need to parallel to the mitre gauge slot. Cheaper method is just using a block of scrap to push the stock through.

Noel


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## Neomorph

Well I've removed the sliding mechanism and went K.I.S.S.

Replaced the fixing mechanism with 2 F-Clamps that will allow better control. I might put back the two side pieces to keep it reasonably parallel to make setting up easier.






Edit: Updated it with the side flaps re-added. All they do is keep the fence central on the table top.

Well tomorrow I will continue fabrication and hopefully the t-slot and miter slot will arrive from Woodworkers Workshop. I've got everything else I need to complete the project so hopefully I will be finshed by this weekend.


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## Anonymous

Nick W":2ezprp8z said:


> Tony,
> 
> This might be a silly question but why is it bad practice? :?



If the fence is slightly out, you will have a bit of a fight between wood, fence and mitre guage - with a cutter rotating at 22000rpm in the middle.

If the fence is slightly nearer to you at the left end, you will be pushing the wood across the face of the mitre gauge as you feed into the cutter. Might jam or lead to climb routing like the recent accident i had (no mitre guage used) which has left me without the use of two finger on my left hand for 2 months or so

If the fence is slightly further away from you on the left, you might end up with a non-perpendicular cut as you push the wood against the fence and mitre.

Bottom line is that it is safer and good practice to use just the fence or just the mitre.

One uses a table saw with mitre guage in the same way.


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## Nick W

Tony,

OK, but so long as fence and mitre slot are parallel, then there is no problem. There is a safety gain too, in that more of the router bit is buried in the fence.

John,

Use your side wings to guide the fence parallel to the mitre slot. Just a thought. :wink:


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## Chris Knight

I am with Tony here. I think it is asking for trouble to use both a mitre slot and a fence for guiding the workpiece. Short of precision engineering, you will not be able to guarantee parallelism. Besides it is unnecessary. Easiest by far is a sled running the fence or table edge.

If you want to make a sled for the mitre slot, good and well - but that's all you need if you clamp the work to the sled (which is unnecessary if you run the sled against the fence which is why I prefer that).


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## Anonymous

Nick W":2c3ab3ls said:


> Tony,
> 
> OK, but so long as fence and mitre slot are parallel, then there is no problem. There is a safety gain too, in that more of the router bit is buried in the fence.
> 
> John,
> 
> Use your side wings to guide the fence parallel to the mitre slot. Just a thought. :wink:



Not easy to always get them exactly parallel every time though and no real advantage using both fence and mitre guide.


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## Neomorph

I realised what made me think using mitre gauge and fence... Norm on the table saw. He often uses both but as he has a high precision (and expensive) table saw it's safe. Getting same precision with a home built system is possible but unlikely.

Yesterday I had a weird "sleep through the day" event as I had been spending too many days with lack of sleep and it caught up. :roll: Nearly 19 hours sleep. I only woke up for a short period when Roger from Woodworkers Workshop rang up to apologise for not sending my stuff. He thought he had sent them but actually hadn't due to a computer error. Ahh well, he's only human.

I can't understand that after sleeping for 19 hours I' still tired :roll:


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## Neomorph

Well the bits arrived from Wood Workers Workshop




so it's a hint to me to get on and finish this pipper off but I'm still waiting for my painkillers to kick in. 

My only complaint about this order is that Roger sent me a load of info on bits I'd love to buy but can't afford at the moment (don't you just hate bills month!). I've recently been on a spending spree as I didn't have to buy Sketchup and am now broke again (except for the bill money thank god!).

Time to save up again...


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## Neomorph

Oh god... I'm a moron.

I just realised that the adjustable outfield really was a waste of time. I was just cutting the fence pieces when I realised that if I cut a spare infield fence and then took 2mm off the face using the router that it would work just as well.

Here is how the back of the fence now looks like... a lot cleaner than what it was eh?


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## LyNx

You can just pack out the outfeed fence which will be easier.

Andy


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## Neomorph

LyNx":83h8bd4o said:


> You can just pack out the outfeed fence which will be easier.
> 
> Andy



I don't see why... I dunno where the heck I'd get the shims from plus I have the extra MDF around to make up the spare infield fence. It's only an extra piece of 490mm x 150mm x 18mm piece of MDF and I have spare piece lying around.

As you can see here it ends up being easier as packing the outfeed would mean packing both the router guard and the feather board as well.


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## Nick W

John,

If you cut through the face of the MDF won't that get you to the softer, inner material? Won't wear well, and probably won't slide that well either.

If it were my project, I think I'd take a break right now. Go do something else, and come back to it later. The weather is picking up - why not get into the garden?


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## Neomorph

Nick W":3r1rubpw said:


> John,
> 
> If you cut through the face of the MDF won't that get you to the softer, inner material? Won't wear well, and probably won't slide that well either.
> 
> If it were my project, I think I'd take a break right now. Go do something else, and come back to it later. The weather is picking up - why not get into the garden?



Oooer... Noob mode kicking in again... Softer inner material? I'm only going to remove 2mm from the face.

I'm also going to be sealing all the MDF I'm using and then coating it with several layers of Acrylic Melamine (when Axminster get it back into stock that is) and then finishing it off with a coating of clear beeswax buffed off until its shiny. Surely this will then make it slide like an ice rink. This method for turning MDF into ice rink mode was suggested by another user here as a good alternative to using laminate which is a pain to get hold of.

Oh and get into the garden... that's my workshop so I was in there cutting my bits when it began to pi... errr... rain extremely heavily so I came back inside after covering table saw and retrieving various other bits and bobs. Started off really nice too... Clear blue skies... birds singing overhead... birds crapping on my damn MDF!!! DOH!




When it comes down to it I think this damn project is sodding JINXED


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## LyNx

the inner core of mdf is not as dense as the outer :wink: 

Personally, i would only go 1mm deep as this will reduce the strain on your router and cutters, also 2mm is alot to take off on large sections of hardwood in a single pass. Plus only 1mm deep will be just inside the denser facing of the MDF 

Andy


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## SketchUp Guru

I haven't been following this thread (but probably should have). Neo, nice SU drawings. Looks like you're getting the hang of it. As to the adjustment for the outfeed fence, packing it out is the simplest method. A common material used here in the US is a scrap of laminate material like you would use on a countertop. If there's a shop nearby that makes kitchen counters you could probably get what you need for free. You might look around in your local stationer's (is that what you'd call an office supply store?) for some plastic sheeting that could be cut up for the use. An old CD might work although it's probably a wee bit thick.

Another thing you might consider is a thicker shim that fits in a groove in either the back of the face or in the base part of the fence. My BenchDog router table fence came with a couple of aluminum bars that are rectangular--maybe something like 1/8" x 3/16". They slip into a couple of grooves in the AL extrusion. If turned one way, they give maybe a 1/32" inch offset. If turned the other way, 1/16".

This would be quite simple to do with your fence design. If you want me to draw it in, send me the SKP.


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## Nick W

> I think this damn project is sodding JINXED



What I was trying to hint is that you should take a break from the project entirely for a little while, working on it in the garden doesn't count [-X . It's kind of like the 'two-mistakes-in-the-workshop-equals-leave-now' rule. When I used to design sofware for a living, if I got to the state of feeling that a bit of work was just going round in circles, geting on top of me, or going down the drain, I'd either leave it and do something else for a couple of days, or give it to someone else to do (not being mean, just if it was urgent and couldn't wait). It's amazing how things become easier with a bit of distance, and incredible how allowing the brain to do its stuff in the background often results in a stroke of genius (though I say it myself   ).

It's probably (no, Ok it IS) rather late to suggest this now, but why don't you build a fence to someone else's design, live with it for a while, and then design your own in the light of your likes and dislikes of the first? There's quite a good simple one on the Wealden site.


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## Neomorph

Nick W":37r7r0t0 said:


> It's probably (no, Ok it IS) rather late to suggest this now, but why don't you build a fence to someone else's design, live with it for a while, and then design your own in the light of your likes and dislikes of the first? There's quite a good simple one on the Wealden site.



Nick... Look at the bottom pic on the Wealden page and tell me it doesn't match pretty much what I have got already. The only difference is that I'm adding the jointing function.

Dave R: The problem with packing out the outfield fence is that the featherboard and router guard will be screwed up. Now an alternative would be to use the same packing material to make the featherboard support stick out by the same amount which is another possibility. The laminate idea is out of the question because it's just too damn expensive and too difficult to get hold of in the size I want. Office supply stores in Redditch are Staples and WH Smith lol. Staple may have something but it's bound to be expensive. One thing I did come across in my shed today is a piece of 3mm glazing that I could route down to make the correct size but it means I gotta find out that design for that sled jig. If I recall it's basically 4 pieces of wood so it should be simple enough.


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## SketchUp Guru

Why not move the T-track out by the thickness of the packing and leave it there? It won''t make any difference if there's a couple or 3 mm space between the featherboards and gaurd and the infeed fence. That way you don't need to remember to put spacers behind everything for the times when you want it.

Again, consider putting a couple of horizontal grooves in the back of the outfeed face and then use a thicker spacer ripped from a scrap of hardwood or something.


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## Neil

John,

Why not just put a washer or two on each bolt, under the featherboards & router guard? This is all I do on my fence - in fact I always leave the washers in place as the featherboard doesn't need to be tight up against the fence. Shimming is definitely the easiest & most accurate way to move the outfeed fence - I use strips of worktop edging laminate as Dave suggested.






Cheers,
Neil


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## Alf

Nick W":2cbqmdh7 said:


> It's amazing how things become easier with a bit of distance, and incredible how allowing the brain to do its stuff in the background often results in a stroke of genius (though I say it myself   ).


'Tis true enough. My best ideas come when I'm asleep - which probably explains why my best ideas are so bad... :lol:

The thing that seems to be causing the grief is the jointing, yes? Simple then. Buy a jointer plane and forget the silly idea of using the router in the first place. :wink: 

Okay, the coat's already in my hand... :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Neomorph

Neil":30nib24j said:


> John,
> 
> Why not just put a washer or two on each bolt, under the featherboards & router guard? This is all I do on my fence - in fact I always leave the washers in place as the featherboard doesn't need to be tight up against the fence. Shimming is definitely the easiest & most accurate way to move the outfeed fence - I use strips of worktop edging laminate as Dave suggested.
> 
> Cheers,
> Neil



Spinky... Simplest of the lot and a lot easier. Nice one. 

Daves idea is also a good one. One of the reasons I started this thread was to get peoples ideas and comments to integrate into my version and it's definately improved over the last week or so. Over-engineering of my version went a bit critical at one stage and then went the other way which actually has made it better. Keep It Simple Stupid strikes again


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## Neomorph

Alf":3n8isnyt said:


> The thing that seems to be causing the grief is the jointing, yes? Simple then. Buy a jointer plane and forget the silly idea of using the router in the first place. :wink:
> 
> Okay, the coat's already in my hand... :roll:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



LOL... earlier in the post I mentioned that I don't have a lot of space and even the router table is going to be a fold down jobby...


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## Neomorph

Dave R":2bv3umuu said:


> Why not move the T-track out by the thickness of the packing and leave it there?



Yeah that's what I meant in my earlier post. The routed down glazing would be equal to the shim so I could fix it behind the featherboard support and leave it there.


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## Sgian Dubh

Neomorph, I have a suspicion that your router fence is getting much more complicated than it really needs to be.

More often than not, as has been alluded too by one or two others, a simple straight stick and couple of cramps will do the job of guiding the wood past the cutter quite adequately.

In my experience something as basic and as simple as this does the job perhaps 95% of the time. 

It really is true that you can over-engineer and think too much about a simple tool, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Scrit

I'm with Sgian. Another vote for the 10 minute stick and cramps fence.

Scrit


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## Paul Chapman

I agree with Scrit and Sgian. If you have not done so already, have a look at the father and son team (can't remember their names) on the Router Workshop on http://www.thewoodworkingchannel.com/

They do so much with just a simple fence and some made up, simple jigs.

Paul


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## Neomorph

Yeah but as Alf has said in his post... zero dust extraction. Zero safety features (no feather boards and no router guard).

Just ask Tony if safety while routing is advisable. No bets on what he's say.

Look at my eyes... you are falling into a deeeeeeeep sleep.. you shall use all safety features and dust extraction. You shall wake up feeling refreshed and throw away that stick... 321 WAKE UP


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## dennyk

*Hi Roger & Neomorph*

A while back you asked for pictures of my router table setup,

I now have a new Digital Camera and have managed to take a few pictures, if you send me a PM, with your email addresses, I will send them
to you, I am not sure how to put them on the site, if you know how, you can post them.


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## DaveL

Denny, 

There are instructions on picture posting here. I you don't have any web space then I would recommend Google and if you don't have a Google account then send your email address to me by PM and I will send you an invite.


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## Shady

> eah but as Alf has said in his post... zero dust extraction. Zero safety features (no feather boards and no router guard).
> 
> Just ask Tony if safety while routing is advisable. No bets on what he's say.



Neo: I've come into this thread late: just 2 observations. With regard to safety, whilst I agree in principle, Tony's comments with respect to using a mitre gauge and fence illustrate that awareness is just as important as 'aids' when it comes to safety. 

Second point: KISS rules... :wink: Scrap fence, clamped on featherboard if you're safety conscious, and test cuts 'till you're happy, is my formula for routing. That said, if you want your fence, build it, and let us all know how it goes.


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