# Welder advice



## Andy (9 Feb 2021)

Hi
I am thinking of dabbling in a little welding to add to my repertoire of useful skills and am therefore looking to buy a welder. I have absolutely zero experience of welding and would therefore like some help in choosing a suitable welder. I am looking for something that would be suitable for a beginner but would at the same time be good enough to stand me in good stead should I get hooked and end up doing a lot of welding. Pricewise I probably don't want a top of the range machine but nor do I want something that will pack up on me in a year the day after the warranty runs out. Thanks in advance, Andy


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## Beanwood (9 Feb 2021)

Andy said:


> Hi
> I am thinking of dabbling in a little welding to add to my repertoire of useful skills and am therefore looking to buy a welder. I have absolutely zero experience of welding and would therefore like some help in choosing a suitable welder. I am looking for something that would be suitable for a beginner but would at the same time be good enough to stand me in good stead should I get hooked and end up doing a lot of welding. Pricewise I probably don't want a top of the range machine but nor do I want something that will pack up on me in a year the day after the warranty runs out. Thanks in advance, Andy



Well - you know how sharpening threads go - whch welder will elicit a similar response  
Usual questions I'm afraid - what material and thickness do you want to weld (Indoors or out?) It dictates whether you go Mig, Tig, Arc or even Gas.

I'd recommend heading over to Welding - The DIY Guide where there are introductory/instructional videos of various types of welding. 
There are also DOZENS of 'what welder should I buy' threads on their forum - that you can peruse - with answers by some very xperienced (professional) welders.

Personally, for general purpose I have a Mig. Prices range from £50 second hand to many thousands. Learn to use it - get the right wire and gas, and you can do a lot with it.


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## redhunter350 (9 Feb 2021)

Also have a look at the MIG Welding Forum -- lots of advice much of it from professionals plus some good tutorials.


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## disco_monkey79 (9 Feb 2021)

If you go down the MIG route, then budget for a good auto-darkening helmet - it makes like MUCH easier


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## Lons (9 Feb 2021)

maybe 20 years ago I inherited an ancient SIP arc welder, I'm a hopeless beginner as I don't use it, or practice enough to get any better but it does work when I need it, might nit be pretty welds but it's got me out of a hole on a number of occasions. I was using it yesterday by co-incidence. Often wondered whether I should buy a MIG but probably won't use it enough.
If you go down the arc route then I've heard the Lidl / Aldi versions are a good price and with a 3 year warranty which can't be bad.


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## Beanwood (9 Feb 2021)

Lons said:


> .
> If you go down the arc route then I've heard the Lidl / Aldi versions are a good price and with a 3 year warranty which can't be bad.



This is correct - they don't have much power TBH, but they are tiny, lightweight and cheap.


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## novocaine (9 Feb 2021)

disco_monkey79 said:


> If you go down the MIG route, then budget for a good auto-darkening helmet - it makes like MUCH easier


why just for Mig, any welding short of gas will need one. 

forget about buying anything yet, go get some lessons. even just 2 evening classes (when they finally start back up) will give the starting knowledge of settings, rates, holds etc. you need to know. 

there are 2 types of welders in this world, those who were taught and those that can't weld but think they can. (I shall now await the tirade of insults for this comment).

(sorry lons, not really an insult).


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## Sandyn (9 Feb 2021)

I have a cheap Draper 100A welder and it does the job, I melted the gas pipe so use use it gasless just now. It's difficult to get a neat weld, but it's fine for what I do. I recently I had the opportunity to use a Rohr MIG-250MI-II . It produced a perfect looking weld first time. It was almost impossible to do anything but a perfect looking weld. I was so impressed I'm thinking about buying the company......or one of their welders. It completely changed my thoughts on welding. I thought it was one of these magical skills that took years to learn, but with a good welder, it's night and day!
I know there is still a lot of skill involved to get perfect welds for professional stuff, but having a good welder makes an incredible difference for hobby use. Just the usual story really. Good equipment gives better results. 
I'm in the process of repairing my Draper so I can use gas, but I think I'll be getting something better. Hallelujah!!! I have seen the light....of a good welder  
My advice is to listen to people on here or other forums and get a good one.


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## --Tom-- (9 Feb 2021)

My evening welding course was cut short by covid, I’d finished the stick part and was about to move on to mig. I picked stick to do first as it’s a good way to learn the basics and get good, the switch to mig is supposed to then be pretty straight forward. I need to get round to buying a welder to get back to it. I’ll be buying a stick as will work for thicker gauge stuff so useful to make up some benches, pedestal stand for grinder etc. stick is also cheaper to get a good welder and then cheap for consumables.
Mig is better for thin stuff and more point and shoot. A decent mig will also need gas, though you can get gas less mig for just the odd bit of welding here and there.
Tig is something that needs some lessons IMO, and is something I want to learn


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## Spectric (9 Feb 2021)

Hi

Toms got it right, attend a course and get some basic broad knowledge of the subject and it will guide you in the direction of what welding method will best suit your needs. If you are looking at being more crafty then gas would be ideal as it would also help with shaping and bending and once learnt it is much easier to progress onto TIG, you get the feel of feeding a rod into the weld pool. At the other end you have MMA or stick which is often referred to as agricultural welding, because it is often used for heavy work but may be what you are looking for.


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## Sideways (9 Feb 2021)

And another recommendation to do the course first, then buy the kit.
In our 8 x 2hour course we started with 4 sesions of stick then 4 MIG then two of playtime and a chance to see / try gas and TIG.
By the end, I could make a weld that worked, had a great time and decided that for my interests which jump from joining hot rolled steel sections to fiddly small stuff on different metals, a TIG set was going to be most useful, most difficult to master and most fun !


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## --Tom-- (9 Feb 2021)

When learning, worth sawing through the practice piece weld and etching it to see if you’re getting penetration.


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## Jelly (9 Feb 2021)

novocaine said:


> why just for Mig, any welding short of gas will need one.



They're not truly essential, and I know professional welders who actually prefer hand shields or fixed shades...

But if you don't weld all the time, it's probably the single biggest thing you can do to improve your welding



novocaine said:


> there are 2 types of welders in this world, those who were taught and those that can't weld but think they can. (I shall now await the tirade of insults for this comment).



I think it's about recognising what you want to do, why, at what level and how fast you want to get good.

I have partially self-taught and partially learned from experienced welders, but never had formal training (although I was trying to get TIG classes when the pandemic kicked off) and can honestly say a couple of hours coaching from an experienced friend moved my skill level on more than months of teaching myself.

If you just need to stick two bits of metal together in a fairly agricultural fashion, it's entirely possible to learn to a good enough standard teaching yourself... 

If you need to make complicated shapes or clean strong welds, or welds which look good then all the learning about prep, settings, rods/wire, technique and feedback on your results is invaluable.


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## novocaine (9 Feb 2021)

Jelly said:


> They're not truly essential, and I know professional welders who actually prefer hand shields or fixed shades...
> 
> But if you don't weld all the time, it's probably the single biggest thing you can do to improve your welding


OK fair comment, I still have a fixed shade in the workshop that gets used occasionally (it's just better for work outside or under LED lamps), I was really meaning that a shield is needed for all types (even gas, although googles are better there). 

spotting pigeon poop along a seam isn't really a weld, trust me, I'm a pro at that.


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## Ttrees (9 Feb 2021)

What are you welding?
Thin stuff like your Startrite wobbly cabinet base would not be suitable for an arc welder/stick welder/mma, call it what you will, it would melt through it.
Anything thinner than 2mm and you need something else, which I have no experience with.
I get along with my 'cheapest welder you can buy' Lidl welder
nice and compact, undeniably great value for the money 50 euros, so about 40 or 45 pounds.
I see folks selling them for twice that in the local adds!

Say you want an ark welder.
If your on a shoestring budget it might be worth noting...
The only thing about this one, is the thermal cut out kicks in after about a half an hour, so you need go in for a cup of tea so it can cool down.
If space isn't an issue, and you want to use if very often for large projects
then look secondhand for something like an 180 amp welder, twice the size,
It's bigger because of the cooling fan.
I wouldn't be concerned if it had a bit of damage concerning the sheet metal.
These can get real rough looking, so you might get a good deal.

The parts for an arc welder like electrode holder if damaged on a secondhand machine, can be bought for a fiver when you're going in to buy your rods.
your local co-op will stock them.

I like the hand held shields rather than a helmet, as it balances out the other hand.








If you plan on making a rolling base for the machine from angle iron, then the arc welder is the cheapest to buy and also for consumables, and most suitable for the job.
Steve Belile's old videos on youtube will tutor you whichever machine you choose.
Good luck
Tom


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## KingAether (9 Feb 2021)

As others have said it really depends on what you want to weld.. I picked up a 180 oxford oil cooled stick unit for £30, its a workhorse, they last for ever and i would highly recommend them but i dont dont do any bodywork or sheet material; would melt it if i did.


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## Spectric (9 Feb 2021)

Sideways said:


> a TIG set was going to be most useful, most difficult to master and most fun !


TIG is the rolls royce of welding and once you understand the different setups for ferrous/non ferrous and master the rod feeding technique you are away, there is no issue with direction like with MMA, and it lays welds down like you have painted them on. One minute you can be welding 2mm stainless and next 6mm ali because a TIG can do it all, only downside is that it is a slower process than many others.

Good luck with welding classes.


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## Andy (9 Feb 2021)

Thanks for all the help guys. As a first project I was thinking of making a moveable base for my table saw from angle iron.


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## clogs (9 Feb 2021)

shame u dont live close I'd show u how to stick and Mig weld....all great fun.....
I always tell beginners that Mig is great but not outside or in a windy shop....
U have to buy gas and how many out there forget to turn the gas off ....!!!!
so it's nice and empty when u next use it......
also the mig wire on the spools rust for fun......
I'd say learn on a stick welder and the progress up to MIG.....
U can buy a BUZZ box new for around a £100 with a free face sheid and a slag hammer.....
If u go that route new or used try and find one that feels heavy...the cheaper units use ally wire in the windings instead of copper......
All welders have thier place, I run a 180 MIG, 225amp Oxford oil filled stick + 480amp oil filled stick welder plus a 180 buzz box....
all irreplaceable to me......
would love a TIG but just dont do enough fancy stuff to justify £2000 plus for a good un.....


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## Lons (9 Feb 2021)

novocaine said:


> why just for Mig, any welding short of gas will need one.
> 
> forget about buying anything yet, go get some lessons. even just 2 evening classes (when they finally start back up) will give the starting knowledge of settings, rates, holds etc. you need to know.
> 
> ...



  If you read my post again you'll see I said _"I'm a hopeless beginner"_ and would never claim to be anything but so I couldn't be insulted anyway. Good advice about the lessons and something I always meant to do but never got around to.


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## TFrench (9 Feb 2021)

I put myself in novocaine's "not taught but can stick metal together" category. I've mainly used MIG as it's what we have at work. For a long time I just made it up as I went along, in the last few years I've made more effort to research and learn better technique and my welding has improved massively. Now if I'm going to try something I haven't done before I have a look on youtube for pointers before I start and make a mess. Recently I've invested in an AC/DC tig welder as well - now I can stick stainless and aluminium together badly


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## sometimewoodworker (10 Feb 2021)

Andy said:


> Hi
> I am thinking of dabbling in a little welding to add to my repertoire of useful skills and am therefore looking to buy a welder. I have absolutely zero experience of welding and would therefore like some help in choosing a suitable welder. I am looking for something that would be suitable for a beginner but would at the same time be good enough to stand me in good stead should I get hooked and end up doing a lot of welding. Pricewise I probably don't want a top of the range machine but nor do I want something that will pack up on me in a year the day after the warranty runs out. Thanks in advance, Andy


If you get a machine that does stick do get some 1.6mm and 2mm rods as it is easy to burn through steel when you start welding unless you are welding 3mm and up steel.


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## Dave Moore (10 Feb 2021)

Andy said:


> Hi
> I am thinking of dabbling in a little welding to add to my repertoire of useful skills and am therefore looking to buy a welder. I have absolutely zero experience of welding and would therefore like some help in choosing a suitable welder. I am looking for something that would be suitable for a beginner but would at the same time be good enough to stand me in good stead should I get hooked and end up doing a lot of welding. Pricewise I probably don't want a top of the range machine but nor do I want something that will pack up on me in a year the day after the warranty runs out. Thanks in advance, Andy


The beauty of using a mig comes when setting up as you can easily spot tack weld it. Using a headshield which is self darkening when the arc strikes leaves one hand free for setting up. Ensure everything is clean whichever process you use.


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## heimlaga (10 Feb 2021)

Whatever route you choose get a good quality welder of sufficient capacity. That makes learning a lot less frustrating and maker your new skill once aquired a lot more useful.

Myself I find stick welding with a DC welder to be the most useful method for my needs:
-I very rarely need anything thinner than 1,5mm welded and that is the thinnest I can stick weld with 1,6mm rods. A friend owns a professional grade MIG welder and weld the thinner stuff for me when needs arise once every second year.
-On the other hand I can stick weld thick materials. I can weld 30mm plate with 4mm rods if I want and I tend to have plenty of thick materials on various sorts of machinery. Rarely over 25mm though.
-I can also hard face a base material using the stick welder. For instance I built up my anvil with hardfacing rods because it was damaged beyond uselessness when I got it.
-I can nickel weld damaged cast iron parts using the stick welder.
-Stick welding is not affected detrimentally by windy conditions which is important as I live by the coast and have no fire proof workshop to weld inside so I must work outside. MIG or TIG welding hardly ever produces a decent result when working outside on a day when the weather is anything but calm.
-There are "gasless MIGs" with flux core wire which is not affected by wind but the cheaper ones have a very bad reputation for making weak welds and even the most expensive ones are one trick ponies with very limited versatility. Useless for thin materials and less versatile than stick welding for thick materials.
-Any AC stick welders are junk. I learned welding one an old Esab transformator and it was very difficult to master and even with the best of skills the result is mediocre at best. Therefore I sold the AC welder cheap very early on and got a proper 200 ampere DC rectrifyer stick welder. The "easy to use" ok46 and p45 sour welding rods often recommended for beginners and particularly for AC welders produce joints that are dangerously brittle and shatter like glass in freezing temperatures.

Then there are four main types of DC stick welders:
-Generators. The best of them all. A three phase motor powering a DC generator on a straight shaft. Produces an absolutely smooth DC current. Loud and heavy though. No new ones are manufactures to my knowledge and the moving parts tend to wear out unfortunately.
-Single phase or two phase rectifyers. A single AC current goes through a transformator and then through diodes making it a pulsing DC current. Decent weldes but not excellent.
-True three phase rectifyers. Two or three AC currents out of phase with one another each goes through it's own transformator and set of diodes after which the pulsing currents are joined into one almost smooth Dc current as the pulses were out of phase with one another. This is the type of welder that I have. I don't think they are made anymore. Even the small models weigh at least 150 kilos but they work very well.
-Inverters. The frequency of a single AC current is increased after which it goes through a transformator and a set of diodes. Produces a pulsing DC current with so short pulses that it is smooth in practice. Very good welders with great welding characteristics but very difficult to repair. Most new professional grade stick welders are of this type.


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## OldWood (10 Feb 2021)

I learnt to weld as an apprentice in year dot, so have forgotten it all. So what I say has no real weight, but my brother a year or so ago did a starter course somewhere in or near Motherwell. No doubtt the instructor was well intentioned and got the class started, but my brother reckoned he learnt more off YouTube videos than anything he got in the class, which I seem to remember he abandoned before the end.
Rob


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## Beanwood (10 Feb 2021)

OldWood said:


> I learnt to weld as an apprentice in year dot, so have forgotten it all. So what I say has no real weight, but my brother a year or so ago did a starter course somewhere in or near Motherwell. No doubtt the instructor was well intentioned and got the class started, but my brother reckoned he learnt more off YouTube videos than anything he got in the class, which I seem to remember he abandoned before the end.



I can only speak from the point of view of an amateur - I have welded for years with various degrees of success, and took a course just to satisfy my curiosity as much as anything else.
I think the point of an instructor is to help you when things LOOK OK, but aren't actually any good (Do you remember 'cold toes', where the weld looks realy neat, tidy, and hasn't actually penetrated properly !)
They can also help spotting set-up problems (Too much/too little gas, incorrect voltage or wire speed?)
And they can demonstrate with Mig that lovely 'sizzling bacon' sound, which tells you the weld is really going nicely.
Also the 'main' point of tutoring is to allow you to practice - which is really what welding is all about.


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## Ttrees (10 Feb 2021)

Never heard of the term 'cold toes' but I ain't a welder.
For fear it all might sound daunting for a newbie, making stuff from angle iron, I hope ye will grant me a licence to waffle a bit.

Thankfully cold toes are not really an issue with arc welding for what most need regarding workshop stuff like machine bases,
(most aren't using machines that weigh over a tonne)
And you can grind nice deep bevels in most cases and build up a good pool.
Were not building the Titanic, welding inch thick steel in stressful situations.
5mm thick angle iron is pretty stout.

Strange picture underneath of red hot metal to illustrate adequate penetration from this wee Lidl job.
Treat the puddle as custard and orient the work so gravity works in your favour.
Best practice if possible, no need to do vertical welds unless you're working on
something that cannot be disassembled, like tractors for instance.

And if in doubt grind it all back and start again, not an issue as most here are woodworkers, not price work welders who get a wasted rod or extra time taken out of their pay packet

And make a few picks from long masonry nails for removing any slag grit, as
if you can hear the grit, you can't weld on it.
This is important when joining up those good tacks that one might make,
before blasting it with a long bead to make it really skookum as frig, and not a wee measly tack like on many factory made things.
Tacks often required in different locations to counter the pull of the last good tack.

And wear goggles for the entire duration (yes under the shield/mask) and afterwards, until you can touch the metal with your hand, as it can act like water on oil and spit at you when you're cooking sausages.
Goggles kept on anyway for cleaning up with grinder, or finding slag with the pick that can ricochet at your eyes/teeth.
A bench grinder is handy to have for various picks, keeping one handled awl sharp, and for another nail or two that you hit with an tack hammer.

I fear that even I've made it sound complicated
I'm not the best at being straight to the point.
Good luck

Tom


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