# what are CLIFTON doing.....



## tobytools

clifton have been saved my Thomas Flinn &Co, i understand that he would want to add a trade mark of his own to the design on the clifton range but changing it colour seem a waste of time and money..... after all can you get a more 'BRITISH' colour than british racing car green!! i think not, 

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 4086_o.jpg

there are a few issues that need to be addressed before the marketing/design team sit around drinking coffee and say lets change the colour!
some one pointed out about the makers mark on the iron being stamped all over the place. its these issues that need sorting before its colour... call it graphite or what you will is a worse green....

put into production the elusive clifton "BRITISH' block plane, forget the no8, we need a router amongst other planes, but the feature of clifton is its superb steel, if they did a chisel range i believe it would help them out a lot, 

anyone else have anything they would like to say on the matter, hopefully this is read by MR FLINN and something is absorbed before this already tainted BRITISH company falls deeper into the same hole its been its entire existence..

we can look over the tolerance issues due to the floods that the factories had but enough is enough.. sort it out, LN and verities are killing the market with new designs and reproductions of every tool possible while clifton change its colour,,,,, (hammer) 

what the public think???

this isn't to embarrass clifton tools but to ask the consumer what they think after all we buy the goods..

thanksTT


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## t8hants

Deck chairs on the Titanic?


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## CStanford

Well, the black coating is certainly not an improvement. Surely that doesn't represent much of a cost savings - pennies I'd think.


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## Stuart

I love the green on my Clifton smother and the finish on the Clifton small shoulder plane, both are lovely planes to use. It also supports another small enterprise when in my case I buy the tools from Matthew at Workshop Heaven, may Thomas and Matthew have a very successful future supplying good quality kit to us all for many more years. They deserve our support.

I agree with you Toby, they need a wider range of tools and a router and low angle block plane would be ideal. Few of us use planes above a 5 or 5 1/2 as we have planer thicknessers to do the heavy work, but every tool kit needs a block plane (I think). Very few jobs leave my workshop that have not been touched by the sole of a block plane. 

If their R and D department need some help developing and testing new products I will offer my services for free, let them just give me more of their lovely tools as payment and I will be very happy.


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## jimi43

If I were sitting at that table Toby I would say that they needed a "quick fix" to give them time.

Paint them Graphite and the viral world will talk simply because it's NOT BRG and therefore the brand will be chatted about from Sheffield to Sydney.

THEN...what they need to think about is production cost and what really is their strength.

For me...their strength is and always will be the quality of their steel. If you say "Sheffield" anywhere in the world and ask what people would say next they say STEEL. 

A unique design of plane bodies could be made by a good designer...made overseas and armed with Sheffield steel and then painted sky blue pink and it would sell...IF the price was right.

I'd even buy one!

Just my opinion.

Jimi


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## Phil Pascoe

Jimi, I hope you're right but I wonder if "Made in Sheffield" has the same cachet as it used to after e few decades of all manner of junk being branded with it.


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## MIGNAL

I saw nothing wrong with the Planes as they were. Aesthetically the best of the lot, including the wonky 'stamp', which gave a tilt to 'handmade'. 
If anything needed to be changed it wasn't the actual Plane or it's design, certainly not it's colour. Other marketing aspects may have needed changing though. You can see a wonky stamp as being poor quality. Market it right and it can suddenly become a positive.


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## tobytools

MIGNAL":28f91zwu said:


> I saw nothing wrong with the Planes as they were. Aesthetically the best of the lot, including the wonky 'stamp', which gave a tilt to 'handmade'.
> If anything needed to be changed it wasn't the actual Plane or it's design, certainly not it's colour. Other marketing aspects may have needed changing though. You can see a wonky stamp as being poor quality. Market it right and it can suddenly become a positive.




the alinement of the stamp was just something some mentioned on the fb page, tho it does point out the quality control, and clifton not having the best track record this can be seen as a reminder of bad times in production, at the same time its these moron imperfections that remind us of homemade/shop made tools and we learn to love them..
a valid point MIGNAL thank you..

cheers
TT


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## tobytools

It also supports another small enterprise when in my case I buy the tools from Matthew at Workshop Heaven, may Thomas and Matthew have a very successful future supplying good quality kit to us all for many more years. They deserve our support.

every tool kit needs a block plane (I think). Very few jobs leave my workshop that have not been touched by the sole of a block plane.


> +1000 for a block plane. its such a vital tools its ridiculous, especial for fine furniture.
> if one was available tomorrow i would pre-order it tonight.
> 
> QS beat us to the punch and filled the market gap for a good block plane for a reasonable sum...
> 
> TT


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## deema

There seems to be at least three distict markets for hand tools

1. DIYer, cheap as anything just needs to bash a couple of nails, plane a but of wood etc. main criteria is Price, and some sort of brand recognition that it will be safe to use. Recognises that the tool will be a compromise between cost and performance, but what the heck, the odd half an hour of DIY a year does not justify the extra outlay.

Vast market.

2. Trade users, need a quality tool. Needs to be fairly refined, however it's a tool that is used every day, may get dropped, lost, left in the back of the van etc. looking for a good tool at a reasonable price. 

large Market

3. Enthusiast, professional user. Normally primarily bench / indoors work, fully appreciates the quality of the tools they use, invests in a tool to last a lifetime. Happy to pay for quality as long as it real is quality and highly likely to trade up for a better tool if they can appreciate a real or perceived benefit that has been created by the new tool.

Small market

Clifton need to decide which market segment they are in and focus of producing the best quality tools, that have the best performance. Like Veritas, a premium range and a super premium range will sell if the features are sufficiently differentiating. 100% made in the UK is highly valued and people appreciate it will be more expensive. However, it must be ABSOLUTLEY spot on for quality.

I look on in despair how quality British products loose track of what they are doing and end up losing market share and ultimately close as a consequence. Can anyone off the cuff state why you should buy Thomas Flynn saws? No, thought not. Anyone tell me if Lee Neilson is a really quality product, everyone put their hands down. Which is the most expensive? Which sells the most product in the UK? Both made in high labour cost countries, but why is one more successful than the other? 

Lie Neilson and Veritas are very good at telling us why their products are superior, highlighting the benefits and as a consequence most people have developed a recognition of the brand and also an aspiration and desire to own them. If you see one of these products lying on a bench, you know the owner has spent some serious money, but you also know they have invested in an excellent tool.

If you see a Thomas Flynn saw lying on a bench or a Clifton plane you think what? Well enough said.

As they say, if only I had enough shekels to have bought the company, changing the colour would not be the issue I would be addressing. 

Mr Clifton, Mr Flynn, wake up.


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## MIGNAL

Why? What's wrong with the Clifton Plane that makes you think it lacks a little quality? Can you be specific.


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## tobytools

deema":3cvle6gr said:


> There seems to be at least three distict markets for hand tools
> 
> 1. DIYer, cheap as anything just needs to bash a couple of nails, plane a but of wood etc. main criteria is Price, and some sort of brand recognition that it will be safe to use. Recognises that the tool will be a compromise between cost and performance, but what the heck, the odd half an hour of DIY a year does not justify the extra outlay.
> 
> Vast market.
> 
> 2. Trade users, need a quality tool. Needs to be fairly refined, however it's a tool that is used every day, may get dropped, lost, left in the back of the van etc. looking for a good tool at a reasonable price.
> 
> large Market
> 
> 3. Enthusiast, professional user. Normally primarily bench / indoors work, fully appreciates the quality of the tools they use, invests in a tool to last a lifetime. Happy to pay for quality as long as it real is quality and highly likely to trade up for a better tool if they can appreciate a real or perceived benefit that has been created by the new tool.
> 
> Small market
> 
> Clifton need to decide which market segment they are in and focus of producing the best quality tools, that have the best performance. Like Veritas, a premium range and a super premium range will sell if the features are sufficiently differentiating. 100% made in the UK is highly valued and people appreciate it will be more expensive. However, it must be ABSOLUTLEY spot on for quality.
> 
> I look on in despair how quality British products loose track of what they are doing and end up losing market share and ultimately close as a consequence. Can anyone off the cuff state why you should buy Thomas Flynn saws? No, thought not. Anyone tell me if Lee Neilson is a really quality product, everyone put their hands down. Which is the most expensive? Which sells the most product in the UK? Both made in high labour cost countries, but why is one more successful than the other?
> 
> Lie Neilson and Veritas are very good at telling us why their products are superior, highlighting the benefits and as a consequence most people have developed a recognition of the brand and also an aspiration and desire to own them. If you see one of these products lying on a bench, you know the owner has spent some serious money, but you also know they have invested in an excellent tool.
> 
> If you see a Thomas Flynn saw lying on a bench or a Clifton plane you think what? Well enough said.
> 
> As they say, if only I had enough shekels to have bought the company, changing the colour would not be the issue I would be addressing.
> 
> Mr Clifton, Mr Flynn, wake up.



well said...

TT


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## deema

I think Clifton and Flynn products are excellent quality tools. I think however that the brands are perceived to be a lower value product that either Lie Nielson or Veritas which is simply down to how they are presented, marketed and that they don't take the extra trouble of ensuring their products are completely niggle free. You won't find a wonky stamp on the either of the two tool manufactures products. It takes just as much time to do it correctly as it does to do it wrong. 

The focus should be making the best possible tool that is not just good, but absolutely excellent performance. Set the price accordingly. They seem to be in the loop of cost down, price down not knowing whether they want to be in the Trade or Enthusiast market. The latter I would wager has higher margins than the former. 

If the tool you have bought has been hand crafted by 'Fred' who has served a 5 year apprenticeship and appreciates that a well refined tool is treasured, we will and do all buy into that. Look at how Lie Neilson emphasis the fact that their tools are all hand crafted by people who care. Tell us please about the way you have made the product and what we are buying for our money. I would like a ticket in my plane that is hand written by Fred telling me that he personally guarantees that this is the very best product he has ever produced and if I'm not completely satisfied he will come and fix it for me. Give me a lifetime guarantee and then show me how to protect my latest purchase in a special wool sock with green credentials preservative that stops the dreaded rust that has the big company logo on it. Better still a sticker saying that Nelly has just knitted it with love and fitted it to perfection to my plane. No one does socks that actually fit the planes. My socks are knitted to fit my feet so it's not that hard is it. I would pay a lot more for a properly shaped sock.

There is a market for planes that cost £5,000 + so a market where a plane costs say £500 also exists, I would love to own a £5,000 plane, and somewhere inside me I know it won't do the job that much better, but I sure as hell will love using it every time on those 'special' jobs. 

The enthusiast market in the USA is massive, and a high quality British manufactured tool will sell. It needs to be lovingly cast, machined, setup to perfection with the best quality steel blade that is guaranteed to have the right hardness, dead flat and fully polished with the bevel properly made. However, you need to sell / tell your customers about these features otherwise it's just an expensive plane that no one will recognise as being anything other than 'ordinary'

I won't buy anything just because the paint is a different colour.


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## deema

By the way, if Mr Sedgwick, Flynn are interested in selling their companies please PM me, I would in all seriousness look to buy them. You have a great future, but you are IMO squandering a wonderful history of machine and tool making.


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## MIGNAL

I think Clifton owners will tell you that they are superb performers. Every bit as good as LN and Veritas. It's come down to a wonky stamp, which I would argue isn't 'wrong' but 'right'. As I stated previously, it's a tilt at handmade, a tilt at traditional sheffield Plane blade making. We aren't referring to the sole of a Plane that requires a certain tolerance or the mating surface of the frog. It's an aesthetic issue. I prefer the wonky stamp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM


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## NickWelford

The only Clifton tool I have is the convex spokeshave, which is great. I'M not sure there is an equivalent from another manufacturer. I would love a Clifton plane, whatever faults some perceive they have. Just can't afford it over my crappy no name plane. My planing skills are crappy too. I would hate to see them disappear, and hope something is sorted out.


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## iNewbie

MIGNAL":3dyss1jx said:


> I think Clifton owners will tell you that they are superb performers. Every bit as good as LN and Veritas. It's come down to a wonky stamp, which I would argue isn't 'wrong' but 'right'. As I stated previously, it's a tilt at handmade, a tilt at traditional sheffield Plane blade making. We aren't referring to the sole of a Plane that requires a certain tolerance or the mating surface of the frog. It's an aesthetic issue. I prefer the wonky stamp.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM



No. Its wrong -imho. 

Its a romantic idea to say 'its a tilt at handmade' when they needn't be stamped that way. 

They're selling something that is at the top-end of that price range and a mistake is a mistake - its like buying a Rolls Royce with the Silver Lady misplaced... 

If they don't care enough about that small detail (their mark) what do they care about on the rest of the product. 

And they shouldn't change the colour! :mrgreen:


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## Peter Sefton

NickWelford":2msh1ijk said:


> I would hate to see them disappear, and hope something is sorted out.



Who said they are going to disappear? They have been bought out by another sheffield tool maker Thomas Flinn. They have only been in charge a few weeks the first and very visible difference is the colour. I believe they will be making other tweaks in time but these things do not happen overnight. I know they are very busy at present looking into how they can improve the planes and I am sure any positive feedback will be appreciated.
I am very interested to see how things will pan out where Clifton go from here.


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## MIGNAL

iNewbie":2xl72p8n said:


> MIGNAL":2xl72p8n said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Clifton owners will tell you that they are superb performers. Every bit as good as LN and Veritas. It's come down to a wonky stamp, which I would argue isn't 'wrong' but 'right'. As I stated previously, it's a tilt at handmade, a tilt at traditional sheffield Plane blade making. We aren't referring to the sole of a Plane that requires a certain tolerance or the mating surface of the frog. It's an aesthetic issue. I prefer the wonky stamp.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. Its wrong -imho.
> 
> Its a romantic idea to say 'its a tilt at handmade' when they needn't be stamped that way.
> 
> They're selling something that is at the top-end of that price range and a mistake is a mistake - its like buying a Rolls Royce with the Silver Lady misplaced...
> 
> If they don't care enough about that small detail (their mark) what do they care about on the rest of the product.
> 
> And they shouldn't change the colour! :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


I suspect that being misplaced was somewhat deliberate. If Clifton can get a sole within 0.075 mm I suspect that they wouldn't have much problem getting a stamp centred within 1 or 2 mm's ! If you look at a lot of old Sheffield Plane irons (as I have) you will be hard pressed to find one that was centred. They obviously didn't think it was important, it isn't. It's obviously a Sheffield tradition. Not much different to Bill Carter's Planes. They aren't 'perfect'. Crikey, they still have the stamp from some long forgotten saw maker! What's that all about? Maybe, just maybe it tells you something about craft and handwork. Accuracy when and where it's needed. Yet to see a perfectly formed Rembrandt signature perfectly parallel to the bottom edge of the painting!. In fact many great craft items throughout history have wobbly stamps or signatures. Part of the tradition. I follow suit with the labels that I place in my Guitars. 
Of course if you want nothing but accuracy and 'perfection' there is always. . . Ikea furniture.
Perhaps the fault with Clifton is that they didn't make enough of their wobbly stamp. I love their wobbly stamp. Everyone should have a wobbly stamp!


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## iNewbie

MIGNAL":2wqwrgh7 said:


> I suspect that being misplaced was somewhat deliberate. If Clifton can get a sole within 0.075 mm I suspect that they wouldn't have much problem getting a stamp centred within 1 or 2 mm's ! If you look at a lot of old Sheffield Plane irons (as I have) you will be hard pressed to find one that was centred. They obviously didn't think it was important, it isn't. It's obviously a Sheffield tradition. Not much different to Bill Carter's Planes. They aren't 'perfect'. Crikey, they still have the stamp from some long forgotten saw maker! What's that all about? Maybe, just maybe it tells you something about craft and handwork. Accuracy when and where it's needed. Yet to see a perfectly formed Rembrandt signature perfectly parallel to the bottom edge of the painting!. In fact many great craft items throughout history have wobbly stamps or signatures. Part of the tradition. I follow suit with the labels that I place in my Guitars.
> Of course if you want nothing but accuracy and 'perfection' there is always. . . Ikea furniture.
> Perhaps the fault with Clifton is that they didn't make enough of their wobbly stamp. I love their wobbly stamp. Everyone should have a wobbly stamp!



We're in a modern age though where perfection -as close as it can be- is expected for expensive goods - let alone cheap. 

Mine has the wobbly stamp. I'm a member of the wobbly club! :mrgreen:


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## deema

Mignal is right, there is nothing wrong with the stamp being off centre.....if it's placed their by hand by a craftsman. If it's stamped on by a machine, then it's a case of the setup of the machine / jig is poor, and it's down to a lack of attention to detail. 

Let's assume its a person with a hand stamp and a very heavy hammer adding the stamp to the blade. It's very prominent and is a real feature of the plane. Advertise, uTube how the stamp is applied, let everyone know its Fred who has personally made it and he did it by hand. The alignment of the stamp is the statement that it's completely hand made. It's the feature of the quality of the product. 

We actually don't know how the stamp is applied, it emphasises the difference between for instance the Lie Nielson planes and Clifton plane I have. The former, when I researched what to buy I was able to see on uTube how the wooden patterns were made, how the casting is done, how the machining was done, how in fact everything was made. I believed it was a hand made quality tool. The Clifton plane, well, I'm just guessing. I wanted to try and support a UK company so bought a shoulder plane. I had no basis to know whether is was cheaply made in China, badged and sold or a quality British made plane. My reference was actually this site where people had said they were a good quality plane. 

I am rather passionate about all things made in Britain. We have truly excellent people making truly excellent products, we are in many cases just awful at knowing how to market and sell the stuff and therefore command a reasonable price for our products.


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## Stuart

I have pre 1950 Record and Stanley planes and two Clifton and one Lie Nielsen and spent my working life using planes. The planes I enjoy using the most are the Clifton planes. The others in my kit are also good tools and work well but the Cliftons make me feel good when I work with them. 
If any of you out there have not used a Cliton plane and are basing you remarks on what yo have read please try them out, if you live around West Oxfordshire come and try mine.


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## jimi43

I think that the accurate placement of the mark is way down on the list of things I would be worried about and it a total red herring...or is it racing green herring...one can never be sure! :mrgreen: 

Jimi


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## Peter Sefton

This video has been out for a few years and shows how the all import and stamp is done. I agree with Stuart I have used and own a fair range of planes but the Clifton has a different feel to the others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdH43wiB0IA
Cheers Peter


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## Cheshirechappie

Suggestions for improvements to Clifton planes:

1) DO NOT redesign either the bench planes or the shoulder planes. Both are excellent (and the green paint is a lovely, elegant finish for the bench planes, now familiar to all seasoned woodworkers).

2) DO NOT compromise any of the manufacturing stages, especially not the cutting irons. Clifton irons are the ONLY multiple-strike forged blades on the market - keep it that way, and plug it in the marketing.

3) Offer a (nice, solid) single piece cap-iron as an after-market option for those who really don't get on with the stayset capiron.

4) Carry out a final inspection of each fully-assembled bench and shoulder plane before boxing it, including a check for sole flatness against a calibrated inspection-grade surface plate, and a check that all adjustments work correctly, the handles are secure and that finish is good. Provide a small inspection certificate, initialled and dated by the inspector, in the box with each plane.

5) Don't be afraid to build a detailed website showing how the planes are made, machined, assembled and tested. Show how to set up the planes for different jobs, and what they can do. Show how to look after the planes, and how to keep them performing at their best. (I'm quite sure one or two Clifton distributors would be delighted to collaborate on a few short videos or write-ups to this end.)

6) Don't knock anybody else's planes. Just demonstrate the Clifton commitment to quality in design, materials, workmanship and finish.

Just a few thoughts!


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## matthewwh

The iron is cut with reference to the grain of the forging rather than the position of the stamp - hence some of the stamps are misaligned. To do it the other way around would defeat the object of forging it. 

The unhardened portion of the cutting iron (from the slot upwards) acts as a vibration damper, sandwiched between the soft frog and soft body of the cap iron it makes sure that the hardened business end is incredibly well held. 

If any change were needed, it is increasing the price to properly reflect their quality.


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## Tony Zaffuto

My #3 Clifton is my favorite smoother. As I am also "jigless", I also like the two piece "Stay Set" cap iron, as I can pop out the iron, take a few licks on my hard arkansas, and maybe a strop or two, and be back at it. I've said here and on the several American forums I visit, that the Cliftons are the equal of LN and LV, deserving consideration for purchase. I also have found the color (and polish of portions of the sole) to be very handsome and would hate to see the color change. There is a bright side, with that being a definitive collector point (and there will be collectors) of the green and post-green versions.

As an aside, I seek out Record planes with the "stay set" cap iron, having purchased a #4 and #7. If they only had the Clifton iron also! I have retrofit one of my Bedrocks with an aftermarket Clifton 2 piece cap iron.


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## Biliphuster

A £100 block plane would be a great addition to the range. £100 is an amount that prevents it from becoming a huge purchase and then you are in people's tool kits, building trust and good feeling. When they eventually decide to get a premium No 4, or fill out their kit with a jointer, you know where they will be looking. For comparison, a pretty little Lie Nielson 103 can be had in bronze for under £100 and is extremely tempting.

Lie Nielson and Veritas both have slick YouTube channels (Ln especially, beautiful tranquil workshop in front of garden filled bay windows) which go a long way to forming a relationship with a customer, Clifton are by comparison a rather mysterious entity. That there is a video out there already which shows the entire making process, but that has basically no mention of Clifton in it is a real shame.


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## Sheffield Tony

I don't have a Clifton plane but have one of their irons and two piece cap iron in my Record #6, which improved it greatly over the skinny Stanley replacement iron in there when I bought it. 

Personally I think the new colour is good; though Roundel blue would be better :wink: I just hope that Thomas Flinn can improve the web presentation.


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## JimB

British Racing Green was paying homage to Ireland, why not say the crooked stamp is also.


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## Graham Orm

The change of colour is clearly to mark the change of ownership, so that in 100 years (or maybe even in a year) people will be able to easily differentiate the good Cliftons from the 'vastly improved' Flinn-Cliftons. 

The green was original and an easily spotted ID of the Cliftons, I'm sure they could have done something else to mark the change. Old Stanleys are aged accurately by any number of slight differences. 
I suppose that changing the colour is the quickest and cheapest way, but surely it should mark an improved (insert your particular dislike here), rather than just the change of ownership.

If the wonky stamp is deliberate, in my opinion it's a mistake. The tools are targeted at the connoisseur who will want everything perfect I would have thought. If someone were buying a Clifton without knowing much about planes, (which is unlikely), the wonky stamp would instantly suggest poor quality. 

As already posted a set of chisels or a new model would do them more good to commemorate the take over.

Lets give them 5 minutes and see what happens.


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## iNewbie

deema":3c8gh175 said:


> Mignal is right, there is nothing wrong with the stamp being off centre.....if it's placed their by hand by a craftsman. If it's stamped on by a machine, then it's a case of the setup of the machine / jig is poor, and it's down to a lack of attention to detail.



Do you think people would accept a LN or Veritas with a wonky stamp. It makes the item look like a second when another is dead on -- regardless of Matthew mentioning its due to the grain. 

Is it really _that_ hard to do it right seeing as that stamp is also a statement of buying British - I don't want to think British Leyland all over again... :mrgreen: 



> Let's assume its a person with a hand stamp and a very heavy hammer adding the stamp to the blade. It's very prominent and is a real feature of the plane. Advertise, uTube how the stamp is applied, let everyone know its Fred who has personally made it and he did it by hand. The alignment of the stamp is the statement that it's completely hand made. It's the feature of the quality of the product.




Lets ignore Friday Fred and get the blummin' thing on straight. If you want a selling point then its: _ each blade is cut with reference to the grain. We're so finicky the only blades that leave our factory are ones where the Makers Stamp is dead on and central. If the Stamp isn't central to the blade its deemed as a second and discarded. _ 

Thats attention to detail - No Fred's were harmed in the above suggestion.


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## Sheffield Tony

Grayorm":2v0tg2jd said:


> As already posted a set of chisels or a new model would do them more good to commemorate the take over.
> 
> Lets give them 5 minutes and see what happens.



I don't see the need for Clifton chisels. Thomas Flinn already sell a range of "Made in Sheffield" tools including Robert Sorby chisels. And if Clifton made chisels as they make plane irons, they would be in direct competition with Ashley Iles.


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## MIGNAL

Sad really. It's obvious that some folk have been so conditioned by industrial production that even a makers mark has to be subjected to obsessive disorders. Even sadder when it's on a woodworkers hand tool forum. 
It's a mark, a stamp. a signature. What on earth has that got to do with the quality of the rest of the Plane? If you can't discern that it has zero bearing on the quality of the Plane then perhaps you need to take up a new hobby or profession. 
I suggest stacking shelves. But make sure you take your spirit level and that all the 'Heinz' are pointing in the exact same direction.


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## bugbear

Biliphuster":38g3z2m7 said:


> A £100 block plane would be a great addition to the range.



With a Clifton #4 at £254, and a LN #4 at £269, there's every reason to believe that the price of a Clifton #60 1/2 would be more like £150, i.e. very similar to the LN product.

And, don't forget, Clifton couldn't make a living at those prices.

But, yeah, I'd certainly like Clifton to sell me a block plane for £100. But I think that's in my interests, not theirs.

BugBear


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## Fromey

My only hands on experience of Clifton planes is their 3110 shoulder plane. It's a nice plane but I did need to do some obvious filing away of sharp edges where my hands hold it. Filing you would have expected to be already done in a high quality product. In addition, the thin metal shims that regulate the size of the mouth are individually numbered to match the toe piece and flattened (good) but the locating holes have been drilled off line so the shims sit skew and stick out the side of the plane. So my verdict is they are good but not excellent.

As for Thomas Flinn. I took my rip saw from them to the NEW workshop and asked Chris Schwarz to have a look at it. After some cutting and close inspection he evaluated it as one of the biggest pieces of rubbish he'd seen in a long time. There is also a report somewhere (can't recall the forum) that shows they drill the handle and saw plate holes in one go, leaving a mangled and scorched mess inside the handle. So I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope for Clifton planes improving in quality under this new stewardship.


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## G S Haydon

It'll be interesting to see how this progresses. As much as I like the Stay Set I think it would be a good idea to offer a normal cap iron. Enough writers and consumers dislike them and tell all and sundry how poor they are. Offering the option would seem an easy fix.
And yes to promoting the cutting Iron. Other makers are happy to promote the virtues of their "miracle" steels when in fact the Clifton Iron is bang on the money for how a cutting iron "should" :lol: be made. The unique way the cutting iron is made and why it is "better" :lol: than the rest could really work. 

On a side note perhaps someone could help me with this. How are American dealers able to sell a Clifton #4 for $335 > £208.00 and UK buyers typically pay $409 > £254? In the US LN #4 in Iron cost $300.00 > £186.00. Perhaps that's some of the reason why people in the US are able to support the quality tool makers more easily. Combine the cost of a UK Clifton with a ebay market of decent planes for £25.00 in the UK it not hard to see why British tool boxes have not been graced with British Racing Green to the same extent as LN in the US

The new colour, it's OK but black would be my choice. It contrasts nicely with the wood, brass and polished surfaces.

Fomey, do you have a link to the saw that was rubbish? What was so bad, the handle, how it was set?


----------



## thomasflinn

My response to this is as follows:

There are a lot of ideals in the tool making industry that take time, man power and a lot of investment. My job is to deal with practical side of it, ie looking at costs, realism and realities of what we can and cannot do. Rome was not built in a day.
We took on Clifton knowing that we would have to take a lot of steps forward to increase production and get this business to a stage where we can attempt to work from stock and ensure customers can get a British made product more quickly than before. As we only took over little over a month ago, this will take time (and a lot of money!). For example, there is an 8 week queue at the foundry for casting plane bodies. This cannot be changed but does mean we have already invested heavily in more stock than the previous owners. 

We decided on a colour change due to the quality of paint work. If you check out your green ones, you will note they often look lumpy. This is not a finish we liked or preferred so the simple colour change was NOT thought out round a table whilst drinking coffee (I have never drunk a cup of coffee, nor do I ever plan on). The cost of paint is actually higher but we hoped this would give a more aesthetically pleasing look. It is also a great way to mark a change. A new start. The phoenix rising from the ashes. I am aiming to work for the new Clifton generation and encourage new users, not blemished by previous opinions of others. People willing to try something because they want to, not because they have read some personal opinions (often very in factual) on a forum. 

We are also working to eradicate the wonky coined Hand Forged mark so many of you do not seem to like. I hope that when we do change this, I will not have another massive thread on here! We may look to offering you options on these blades, ie traditional coined/stamped mark or laser marked. There will be costs involved in these options and at this stage, this is something we are working on as Peter Sefton has pointed out.

Moving forward, there are plenty of reasons to buy our saws. We offer a wide range to suit different budgets and use high quality materials in our saws. Our saws have folded brass backs which can be re-tensioned or re-bladed over time. The weight of the heavy brass back offers great balance and basically allows the saw to do the work for you. Our saws often come top of performance tests and are championed by many a user across the world. 
We ship our saws to 40 countries world wide, with the majority being sold in the USA. 

Also, Mr Flinn (and I not a Y) sold the business in 1936 and there's a lot of talk about men being in charge at Flinn on here. Not the case, there's a lot of female involvement and I have been a senior partner for a good few years now, even being the one responsible for the ecommerce business and choosing all tools you view and buy. I have also been in the top 3 at a prestigious Made in Sheffield award for the past 3 years running. I have also recently been profiled as one of the top 100 businesses in the Small Business Saturday UK Campaign. We champion small business and appreciate all our customers as without them, we could not continue. 

I thank you all for your opinions. I am now off to have a cup of tea and get on with the tool orders I have. xxxxx


----------



## thomasflinn

My response to this is as follows:

There are a lot of ideals in the tool making industry that take time, man power and a lot of investment. My job is to deal with practical side of it, ie looking at costs, realism and realities of what we can and cannot do. Rome was not built in a day.
We took on Clifton knowing that we would have to take a lot of steps forward to increase production and get this business to a stage where we can attempt to work from stock and ensure customers can get a British made product more quickly than before. As we only took over little over a month ago, this will take time (and a lot of money!). For example, there is an 8 week queue at the foundry for casting plane bodies. This cannot be changed but does mean we have already invested heavily in more stock than the previous owners. 

We decided on a colour change due to the quality of paint work. If you check out your green ones, you will note they often look lumpy. This is not a finish we liked or preferred so the simple colour change was NOT thought out round a table whilst drinking coffee (I have never drunk a cup of coffee, nor do I ever plan on). The cost of paint is actually higher but we hoped this would give a more aesthetically pleasing look. It is also a great way to mark a change. A new start. The phoenix rising from the ashes. I am aiming to work for the new Clifton generation and encourage new users, not blemished by previous opinions of others. People willing to try something because they want to, not because they have read some personal opinions (often very in factual) on a forum. 

We are also working to eradicate the wonky coined Hand Forged mark so many of you do not seem to like. I hope that when we do change this, I will not have another massive thread on here! We may look to offering you options on these blades, ie traditional coined/stamped mark or laser marked. There will be costs involved in these options and at this stage, this is something we are working on as Peter Sefton has pointed out.

Moving forward, there are plenty of reasons to buy our saws. We offer a wide range to suit different budgets and use high quality materials in our saws. Our saws have folded brass backs which can be re-tensioned or re-bladed over time. The weight of the heavy brass back offers great balance and basically allows the saw to do the work for you. Our saws often come top of performance tests and are championed by many a user across the world. 
We ship our saws to 40 countries world wide, with the majority being sold in the USA. 

Also, Mr Flinn (and I not a Y) sold the business in 1936 and there's a lot of talk about men being in charge at Flinn on here. Not the case, there's a lot of female involvement and I have been a senior partner for a good few years now, even being the one responsible for the ecommerce business and choosing all tools you view and buy. I have also been in the top 3 at a prestigious Made in Sheffield award for the past 3 years running. I have also recently been profiled as one of the top 100 businesses in the Small Business Saturday UK Campaign. We champion small business and appreciate all our customers as without them, we could not continue. 

I thank you all for your opinions. I am now off to have a cup of tea and get on with the tool orders I have. xxxxx


----------



## ColeyS1

Any talks about changing the shape of the handle ? I bought a clifton no6 and usually vear towards the lumpier more comfortable record no7. I like the green colour but if you can get a better finish with a different colour than so be it !! 
On a side note, I can't imagine not drinking coffee :lol:


----------



## Fromey

G S Haydon":phn7bx7f said:


> Fomey, do you have a link to the saw that was rubbish? What was so bad, the handle, how it was set?



I bought one of these rip saws (22") http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/aca ... ml#SID=529

I hadn't noticed the handle but Chris pointed out it was an uncomfortable design. I suppose that's a matter of taste. The main defect is that the teeth are stamped out and that's it. It's pretty clear from the curved gullet that no/little sharpening has occurred (I'm sure at the time I purchased it back in 2010 it claimed to be "hand sharpened"). The set was irregular when I got it and I've attempted to regularise it. However, it saws about as well as a ripe banana and so sits gathering dust in my shed. It's on my list to experiment with as my first saw sharpening experience.

I should have added the caveat that my summary above is based on single experience and so may not be representative (I've also had one duff QS plane, but I still trust their quality).

The response above from the company is welcome and promising. I look forward to hearing the positive reviews in the future.


----------



## MIGNAL

Isn't perception strange. The finish on a Veritas is _very_ lumpy and I can only recall it being mentioned once - some 8 or 9 years ago. The only time I've ever heard anyone say Veritas Planes have a poor finish. But of course everyone thinks that Veritas are of superb quality. . . so no one really mentions it, yet they are free to have a go at Cliftons hand forged mark. Now you are going to get your very precise, laser engraved 'Clifton', just like the way Lie Nielsen blades are marked. How utterly safe and utterly boring!


----------



## Plumberpete

I have a Clifton #4 plane which I find gives much better results than any of the Stanley or Record #4's I have tried.
I haven't used a LN or Veritas plane so can't comment on those.

As far as the wonky stamp is concerned, if I wanted to put my Clifton plane in a showcase or to spend my time poring over it with a magnifying glass instead of using it, then this might cause me sleepless nights. But as it is, how it performs and feels in the hand is 99% - if not 100% - of what I look for in a plane.

While we're at it - if anyone has a set of 18th Century John Green oval bolstered mortice chisels with the name stamped wonkily on the side that they're thinking of chucking out, can I have them? :wink:


----------



## Phil Pascoe

No one would buy a Japanese motorcycle that was as unreliable as a Harley, no on would buy a Japanese motorcycle that had a clutch that sounded like Ducati's bucket of nails - but Harleys and Ducati's still sell. If all there is to argue about is a name stamp that in no way affects anything, life must be grand. I think personally that non standard is rather attractive - but, as above, perception is a strange thing.


----------



## MIGNAL

Well if you go over the responses, this is the conclusion:

They don't want the wonky hand forged stamp.
They don't want the two piece chipbreaker.
They dont want the lumpy finish. 
They don't want the rear tote as is. 
They've already removed the Green finish.

Right. They've taken all that is Clifton out of the Clifton. Logic states that you may as well go buy a Lie Nielsen!


----------



## undergroundhunter

MIGNAL":2nk6qt97 said:


> Well if you go over the responses, this is the conclusion:
> 
> They don't want the wonky hand forged stamp.
> They don't want the two piece chipbreaker.
> They dont want the lumpy finish.
> They don't want the rear tote as is.
> They've already removed the Green finish.
> 
> Right. They've taken all that is Clifton out of the Clifton. Logic states that you may as well go buy a Lie Nielsen!


Well said!


----------



## Fromey

They do have a Bedrock mechanism but with Bailey curved side walls (aesthetics). Plus the iron is forged in a unique way.


----------



## bugbear

MIGNAL":31cjbqx6 said:


> Well if you go over the responses, this is the conclusion:
> 
> They don't want the wonky hand forged stamp.
> They don't want the two piece chipbreaker.
> They dont want the lumpy finish.
> They don't want the rear tote as is.
> They've already removed the Green finish.
> 
> Right. They've taken all that is Clifton out of the Clifton. Logic states that you may as well go buy a Lie Nielsen!



You forget they want the prices lower.

BugBear


----------



## paulm

I have several of the Cliftons, 3, 41/2, 51/2, 7 and love the green paint on them, no lumpiness on mine ! I honestly think it's a significant mistake to change that. They will still be very good planes, but the aesthetics are part of which differentiates them from other top end planes, and the new colour in the picture does nothing for me, Unnecessary tinkering imho.

Should say that I sold a bunch of LN planes once I had my Cliftons, they all performed well but I preferred the handling and aesthetics of the Cliftons, just a personal thing I guess.

Cheers, Paul


----------



## thomasflinn

Please note, I never mentioned the two piece cap iron!


----------



## MIGNAL

I honestly think it's a mistake to change anything on them. Of course it goes without saying that the _important_ quality control aspects should be rigorously enforced. Lumpy green paint and wonky stamps are part of the visual appeal IMO and have zero bearing on the function of the plane. 
I can't say I've ever heard a complaint about the paint but then again I'm not party to Clifton/Flinn's complaint department. I think this is much more about perception and marketing. The problem (and it is a very real problem) is that once opinions and perceptions are formed (however false) they become very ingrained. It can be mighty difficult to change them. 
One thing I would change is the quality (perhaps?) and size of the photo's on the Flinn web page. They are simply too small for advertising purposes. Compare them to the larger photo's on the Axminster site of Lie nielsens (their paint looks a little lumpy too!).


----------



## iNewbie

What were you saying about obsessive compulsives... Use the computers zoom function.


----------



## MIGNAL

:roll: Bit of a difference between the alignment of a stamp and the size of a picture! One is an integral part of the product the other is a form of advertising. Dear me!


----------



## Andrea

It is a common opinion that you British you do not have very good taste in the choice of colors (except for the amazing pastel colors of the clothes of His Heighness your Queen). So I did a poll on an Italian forum and the 100% (6 of 6) says that the dark gray is better than dark green.

http://www.legnofilia.it/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13140

;-p


----------



## bugbear

Andrea":cveo35nk said:


> It is a common opinion that you British you do not have very good taste in the choice of colors (except for the amazing pastel colors of the clothes of His Heighness your Queen). So I did a poll on an Italian forum and the 100% (6 of 6) says that the dark gray is better than dark green.
> 
> http://www.legnofilia.it/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13140
> 
> ;-p



Heh. Excellent! :lol: :lol: 

BugBear


----------



## iNewbie

MIGNAL":2yekscaa said:


> :roll: Bit of a difference between the alignment of a stamp and the size of a picture! One is an integral part of the product the other is a form of advertising. Dear me!



Theres no difference if its an _issue _for _you_!


----------



## jimi43

Andrea":re7ef33x said:


> It is a common opinion that you British you do not have very good taste in the choice of colors (except for the amazing pastel colors of the clothes of His Heighness your Queen). So I did a poll on an Italian forum and the 100% (6 of 6) says that the dark gray is better than dark green.
> 
> http://www.legnofilia.it/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13140
> 
> ;-p



Compared with the Italians the entire WORLD has awful taste...this is a well known fact and therefore a complete non-starter...however...........

If Clifton employed an Italian designer to create a new plane instead of hashing out a 100+ year old design then maybe we could be onto a winner. :wink: 

Or not... :mrgreen: 

Not that there's anything wrong with making things to an old design....   

Jimi


----------



## Racers

+1 Jimi

I love my Alfa

Pete


----------



## Phil Pascoe

There again, Italians designed Vespas and Lambrettas - ridiculous looking things.


----------



## Andrea

jimi43":2uhiludd said:


> If Clifton employed an Italian designer to create a new plane instead of hashing out a 100+ year old design then maybe we could be onto a winner. :wink:
> 
> Or not... :mrgreen:



Nah, the Clifton are fine as they are. 

Well, maybe the Lee Valley should employ a designer. I do not say an italian one, just a designer.


----------



## Paul Chapman

thomasflinn":d9cw29sj said:


> Please note, I never mentioned the two piece cap iron!



I hope that means you intend to retain it. In my view, the two-piece (or Stay-set) cap iron is the best designed cap iron ever. I have them fitted to all my bevel-down bench planes.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Andrea

phil.p":1v7wr2tv said:


> There again, Italians designed Vespas and Lambrettas - ridiculous looking things.



Phil, do you see, down there, the gates of hell, which have opened when you pressed the submit button? ;-)


----------



## jimi43

Andrea":1dof10bv said:


> phil.p":1dof10bv said:
> 
> 
> 
> There again, Italians designed Vespas and Lambrettas - ridiculous looking things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phil, do you see, down there, the gates of hell, which have opened when you pressed the submit button? ;-)
Click to expand...


Fear not Andrea...he's probably and aging rocker with a Norton and leathers...his fingers would have stuck to the keyboard owing to the quantity of oil seeping from his pores! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

(only joshing ya Phil...unless...ever been to Brighton?! :mrgreen: )


----------



## Andrea

Racers":3a34vx14 said:


> I love my Alfa



And after this confession we can deduce that masochists live all over the world. 

P.S.
Sorry for these OT jokes. I shut up now.


----------



## jimi43

EXHIBIT A....ITALIAN SPEEDBOAT...







EXHIBIT B....BRITISH SPEEDBOAT...






EXHIBIT A.... ITALIAN CAR






EXHIBIT B....BRITISH CAR...






...note the sleek square steering wheel...






However we do make this....






So....um...we win cos that trumps the entire production of Italy in one go!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Yes...sorry...Andrea you were saying!? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Paul Chapman":1t4ee57s said:


> thomasflinn":1t4ee57s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please note, I never mentioned the two piece cap iron!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope that means you intend to retain it. In my view, the two-piece (or Stay-set) cap iron is the best designed cap iron ever. I have them fitted to all my bevel-down bench planes.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul
Click to expand...


Actually, I think it was me who first mentioned the stayset capiron back on page 2; perhaps I'd better expand on my remarks a little.

I agree with Paul that it's a cracking little bit of kit. Mine is fitted to a 'Victor' (Clifton before they were stamped Clifton) iron in my Record 07, and between them they've transformed the plane. For work in which a very close capiron setting isn't necessary (jack and try work, and smoothing of milder timbers) the two-piece works very well indeed, and saves a bit of faffing about when sharpening, too.

However, some people have mentioned in the past that when a very close capiron setting is desired (mainly for smoothingduties on wild-grained and other difficult timbers) the two-piece has just enough slop to make it hard to get a setting close enough to the cutting iron edge. (There are also a few who seem to be unable to remove the iron and capiron from the plane without losing the nose-piece under the bench - not a problem I've encountered, but maybe I'm just a bit more careful!). To keep these people happy, it may be worth developing a good quality single capiron as an after-market extra. It's not a high priority thing, just an added extra to try to keep everybody happy.

I would like to add that this is intended as a constructive criticism, and is in no way a gripe! Clifton is a fine brand (I wouldn't part with my Clifton shoulder planes for a big gold clock!), and like the vast majority of the posters on this thread, I'd love to see the brand build on the very solid foundation Clico gave it. I'm quite sure that Thomas Flinn intend to do just that, and I wish them every good fortune in doing so.


----------



## woodbrains

Hello,

Innocenti built Austin Allegro based cars in Italy too! Dunno how that happened but Italians must be susceptible to bad design too.

The only problem I can see Clifton suffering from is lack of range. They needed to have introduced more tools more often to keep the brand fresh and alive. I do not own any Clifton bench planes, (though have a few replacement irons) because I have a full set already. No doubt Cliftons are better than my fettled Records, but not be enough to sell them and buy new replacements. I have, however, bought a few specialist planes recently and would have considered Clifton, if they had made them. How long do I have to wait for something new? Too long, and Veritas fulfilled the need, so I got their offerings instead. Now I probably never will own a Clifton, because even my more obscure planing needs have now been fulfilled. I do hope Clifton continue manufacturing tools for future generations, but their lack of haste has caused them to bypass me and many craftsmen my age, by only producing planes we already own!

Mike.


----------



## deema

Well firstly, I would like to thank thomasflinn with and 'I' not a 'y' for responding to the comments and concerns raised. What is being expressed are the views of the passionate wood workers, who really should be your ambassadors and promoters of your products. Social media and forums in particular are extremely powerful marketing tools that help you get your message out about your products but can also bite you severity if you don't listen and respond positively. Defensive comments only give the impression that you don't actually care about your customers opinions, and with the internet it's very easy to research products and make decisions based in others opinions. Most people value a forums opinion over any company's marketing blurb. 

May I suggest that up you use the social media and the well known forums to start a dialogue with the wood working community. Ask open questions like, would you like us to have a one piece cap iron as an optional extra. How do you rate our blades compared to other manufacturers etc. you will get free marketing feedback, and by making the changes that are popular and on balance either improve the product or at least don't detract from its performance you will build a very solid and strong loyalty and following of your products. People are predacious about supporting things they believe in. At the moment, I don't think that either LN or LV have any form if social product development. 

As an idea, which by the way I have done in my on company, launch a pre design of a product in sketchup and ask for input. You will be amazed how much people will actually do to develop your products into something that is vastly better than your initial ideas. Critique the suggestion's and also feedback about the cost implications of the design tweaks being suggested. You will end up with a tool where if you put it into production you will have back orders for. 

Organise for pass arounds of tools and welcome feedback. But most of all act on the feedback otherwise you will turn off those who are passionate about buying a truly British product. 

Do not spend money advertising in woodworking magazines, spend it on developing your social media, uTube and web site content. Show people how to make products, how to rectify problems, Sponsor someone in the UK who is an 'unplugged' woodworker, or similar. People starting out watch this stuff and then want to buy the products they use. It's about thinking differently, it's hiring a young (minded) person who spends their days on the internet socialising and getting them to look after your content. 

It's a passionate plea to stop spending money on developing / changing and refining a product before you both know who your customers are what they want. Match the price of LN / LV tools, sell direct but at the same price or slightly higher than your distributors. All good stuff to raise the GM. 

Please, please do not kill yet another Great British product.


----------



## Fromey

I'd echo the comment about don't waste money on advertising in print magazines. I'm now 50 so becoming part of the ageing demographic and I buy no print magazines. All my woodworking information is serviced by the internet and occasional books. But I suppose there is the risk that I'm a biased form of feedback since I'm here on a forum!


----------



## MickCheese

I really like my green Clifton no4. But I also like the look of the grey Clifton. 

Maybe I need another. 

Mick


----------



## jimi43

What Deema said!! 

Absolutely.

The old ways of product development are long gone.

And what the hell is wrong with coffee anyway!! :mrgreen: 

I bet that goes down well with the worlds biggest marketplace outside the UK!

Jimi


----------



## Peter Sefton

And what the hell is wrong with coffee anyway!! :mrgreen: 

I bet that goes down well with the worlds biggest marketplace outside the UK!

Jimi[/quote]

What's wrong with drinking tea in Yorkshire?
Do we have to give up all our heritage!


----------



## Vann

I own two Cliftons - a No.3 and a No.4 1/2. I'm very passionate about them.

I like the BR Green and am dissappointed that's changing.

The wonky stamp doesn't worry me (a sign of the manufacturing process), and I've fitted two-piece cap irons to a number of my non-Cliftons.

However, two things I don't like (that no one else has mentioned in this thread):
- The domed nuts on the handles. The knob nut at least, should be flat or only domed as much as the wood surrounding it (use the remaining domed-nut stock on the totes);
- The ribs on the bodies of the larger planes. Just aesthetics I know, but LN planes don't need them, and the better quality Stanley and Record planes of old don't have them. Somehow they've become a sign of later, poorer quality planes (to me anyway).

I too am waiting for the block plane (I'm sticking with my Stanley 110 for the present). 

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## dunbarhamlin

The loss of BRG, which followed the livery of Record's aborted premium range (Calvert Stevens) is a shame, especially when grunge grey is the alternative (to me, it's as if they're trying to hide in the shadows instead of celebrating their old world roots)
Could always buck the thick iron trend and investigate a laminated iron as came standard with the CS - lovely piece of kit, but expensive to produce I imagine.
A nice addition would be a technical jack, giving the Clifton line a 5 1/4 and a shooting plane in one.
Properly shaped handles with traditional hang are the one improvement I'd like across the range - perhaps as an option, so high bench users can still enjoy using the tool just under their chin.


----------



## Tony Zaffuto

thomasflinn":o5pihroi said:


> Please note, I never mentioned the two piece cap iron!




May I suggest following the new Lee Valley "cafeteria plan", whereas you give the user the choice of colors, two piece-cap, handles & totes, "hand forged" imprint mark, etc. For me, I would leave my 12 year old Clifton #3 as is, very handsome plane. As I previously posted, I have also outfitted several other planes with your two piece cap iron (works great for those of us that don't use jigs for sharpening.

I have also posted here and on several American forums my high regard for the 14" Pax sash saw I purchased earlier this year from "The Best Things": bargain price saw that compares favorably with any of the in vogue "boutique" makers.

Maybe Clifton/Thomas Flinn should send a few tools out to some of the internet bloggers that go around promoting tools more than using tools?

Regardless of what direction Flinn takes, I wish the company well, as there are fewer and fewer handtool makers for the masses, producing tools to be used.


----------



## deema

This thread is moving in a slightly different direction which is really interesting. To build in the new direction may I Suggest that you make contributions on how Clifton could enhance one of their planes, say the no 4 to an extent that you would be happy (should you have the cash) to pay say £20 more for it than a LN / LV bevel down plane.


----------



## dunbarhamlin

I think the iron, cap iron and overall aesthetic already warranted it. A properly angled handle is the only refinement for me - otherwise it needs replacing/reshaping to minimise stress on my wrist (which may be a more sensitive gauge of the optimum angle than a healthy wrist.)


----------



## Peter Sefton

dunbarhamlin":1k8le5gr said:


> I think the iron, cap iron and overall aesthetic already warranted it. A properly angled handle is the only refinement for me - otherwise it needs replacing/reshaping to minimise stress on my wrist (which may be a more sensitive gauge of the optimum angle than a healthy wrist.)



I agree, I feel they are already the best hand plane available at this price point. They have soul and you can see the amount of work that has into making them.
My experience with students in the workshop trying out a whole variety of planes is that the Clifton's seem to be the most comfortable for the majority of users. But one plane maker is never going to be able to produce a plane handle that fits every ones hand size and grip.
We know Veritas has just launched the range of different handles and knobs, it will be interesting to see how we suppliers deal with it as it's rolled out.


----------



## yetihunting

Long time listener, first time caller.

I liked the old look, I like the new look! 
"Graphite", so depending on lighting, it looks 
either somewhat bare iron or somewhat black, right?
Those times I tried fiddling with old Stanleys, the tar
was the first thing to go. And my pair of czech record clone vises?
They're about to get stripped just as well.

Here's a one guy in the states that drools over Clifton planes.
Our dollar is weak against the pound, and shipping is a week 
in pounds across a pond.  
In 2014, the Clifton lineup is a little to a lot more expensive than
Lie-Nielsen, which, in turn, is a little to a lot more than Veritas.
So, like many North Americans, I look and don't touch. 
Since everyone decided to chime in with opinions, I'll throw
my bid in for finding a way to compete out here, price-wise, while staying profitable.
It can't be easy, the competition only sells direct (no distributor and virtually no retailers) on my continent.


----------



## bugbear

Wild cooincidence territory ... over the weekend on Quest "How It's made" had two consecutive episodes, one showing Flinn Garlick making one and two man cross cut logging saws, the other showing (green)Clifton planes.

BugBear


----------



## yetihunting

bugbear":vo7futcz said:


> Wild cooincidence territory ... over the weekend on Quest "How It's made" had two consecutive episodes, one showing Flinn Garlick making one and two man cross cut logging saws, the other showing (green)Clifton planes.
> 
> BugBear



I can't post links, the US versions of those shorts have been pirated onto youtube for a while (if I'm correct in it
being the same production). 

Search for 

"How it's made crosscut saws" 
and
"How it's made bench planes"

if you missed it and are interested.


----------



## Peter Sefton

This is the Clifton video if you haven't found it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdH43wiB0IA


----------



## paulm

Good to see that video again Peter 

No excuse needed to put up these pictures of my own Cliffies again !

















Still can't get my head around the idea that changing the colour is anything but a huge mistake and losing some of the heritage, there's no magic in grey ! :shock: :roll: 

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Peter Sefton

paulm":66qhtg2c said:


> Good to see that video again Peter
> 
> No excuse needed to put up these pictures of my own Cliffies again !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still can't get my head around the idea that changing the colour is anything but a huge mistake and losing some of the heritage, there's no magic in grey ! :shock: :roll:
> 
> Cheers, Paul



It's going to make these more collectable though, end of an era Paul


----------



## paulm

Wish I had bought the rest of the set now ! 

Cheers, Paul


----------



## iNewbie

paulm":210qwla6 said:


> Still can't get my head around the idea that changing the colour is anything but a huge mistake and losing some of the heritage, there's no magic in grey ! :shock: :roll:



It also means some people won't be buying new - who wants one in Green (a previous buy) and another in whatever...

That green is a stand-out colour Imho.


----------



## iNewbie

yetihunting":239pi7o6 said:


> Long time listener, first time caller.
> 
> I liked the old look, I like the new look!
> "Graphite", so depending on lighting, it looks
> either somewhat bare iron or somewhat black, right?
> Those times I tried fiddling with old Stanleys, the tar
> was the first thing to go. And my pair of czech record clone vises?
> They're about to get stripped just as well.
> 
> Here's a one guy in the states that drools over Clifton planes.
> Our dollar is weak against the pound, and shipping is a week
> in pounds across a pond.
> In 2014, the Clifton lineup is a little to a lot more expensive than
> Lie-Nielsen, which, in turn, is a little to a lot more than Veritas.
> So, like many North Americans, I look and don't touch.
> Since everyone decided to chime in with opinions, I'll throw
> my bid in for finding a way to compete out here, price-wise, while staying profitable.
> It can't be easy, the competition only sells direct (no distributor and virtually no retailers) on my continent.



A #3 is cheaper (here) in the usa than in the uk - i've not compared the others:

The Best Things


----------



## Fromey

paulm, tell me your address. I may take up a life of crime!


----------



## paulm

Fromey":213aex6c said:


> paulm, tell me your address. I may take up a life of crime!



Haha, no chance, but if you can "acquire" the number 4 in that series from that Paul Chapman guy I'll see you alright :wink: :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


----------



## Paul Chapman

What, that one with my name on it?





Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## paulm

Paul Chapman":m1pb1zx6 said:


> What, that one with my name on it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



Vandal !!! :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Sgian Dubh

iNewbie":3ql2fp83 said:


> paulm":3ql2fp83 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still can't get my head around the idea that changing the colour is anything but a huge mistake and losing some of the heritage, there's no magic in grey!
> 
> 
> 
> It also means some people won't be buying new - who wants one in Green (a previous buy) and another in whatever....
Click to expand...

What difference does a colour change make to performance if all else remains the same in terms of manufacturing standards, and the tool user's experience? I suppose it depends to some extent if you're perhaps a bit more interested in collecting than using. My Clifton no. 4 includes in the casting the identification mark 2000-1C, which I think indicates it was one of the original 100 no. 4s ever produced. I suppose that fairly rare characteristic might make the tool slightly more collectable than later models. But to be honest I'm really only interested in the fact the tool works well: that no. 4 and an old Spiers are my two 'go to' planes for smoothing tasks prior to any scraping, sanding and polishing. 

If I were now looking to replace some of my other non-Clifton planes with a Clifton I can't see me scouring the second-hand market for the green coloured ones just because I've decided I'm not so keen on a different colour. If the Thomas Flinn versions retain all the engineering qualities of the original Clifton made models (or perhaps even improves them) and the price suits my budget, then green, grey, maroon, shocking pink (well, maybe not the last one) wouldn't be a deciding factor for me. Slainte.


----------



## jimi43

i know we tend to poo poo the "C" word around these parts but having had Mr Russell's tome (no...huge lump! :shock: ) for a few days now and suffering severe kneecap damage and groin injuries by trying to read it in bed...I can honestly say...thank Heavens there are c*llect*rs out there!

His book demonstrates how obsessive acquisition of old (and selected new) tools can benefit others immensely.

I used to think that buying planes such as the green Cliftons...and special editions too boot...was wasteful but now not so...I have completely changed my mind! 8) 

The question is...if they were to make another "special edition" series in graphite...would they be popular additions to the green ones resting on shelves in this parish?

I will add however, that I do still use all my tools...whatever the reason I purchased them for...because for me, that's part of the experience. Will this devalue them...sure...but I didn't buy them to sell them on someday "mint in box"...I want to add patina to them...and try not to break them in the process.

Now...having mentioned the "C" word a few times I feel justified in spending tomorrow trawling known hunting grounds for more of Christopher's finest...

(phew! I think I got away with that! :wink: )

Jimi

p.s. the wonky logo is cute! The green colour...iconic! (did they run out of old stock from Jaguar or did it just go off?)


----------



## Harbo

Reading that book in bed - it weighs a ton!

Sadly the collection is being sold off and a great pity it wasn't saved for the nation? Now we just have the glorious photos as reference.

I use all my tools and some get damaged in the process, especially when they miss the rubber floor mats and dive instead for concrete!!

Rod


----------



## paulm

No collectors round here, all mine have been and are used, although I don't do a lot of flat work currently. Not that it matters to Clifton, as long as their planes are bought !

I'll say it again, there is no "magic" in grey ! It's a non-choice, least likely to offend by virtue of having no character at all, shame, still it's only paint and only my preference 

Richard, I guess it's fortunate that your customers don't take the same pragmatic I don't care what it looks like it's only a tool and does the job approach when buying their furniture, otherwise they would settle for flat pack from ikea or argos rather than commission one of your own pieces, after all they'll all hold a cup of coffee or whatever so why worry about what they look like ! 

Cheers, Paul


----------



## jimi43

Yes Rod...it is sad indeed...and it should be in a museum but I think that the individual buyers will look after them too...we are just mere guardians of these things...although some appear to be rather obsessive thankfully!

Paul...somehow I didn't think you let them gather dust but I'm afraid that you want the last of the set....kinda does put you in that "c" category...all be it with a small "c"!!! :mrgreen: 

I think collectors are fine upstanding people who need to find as many of the things they desire in the shortest possible time, particularly if they have the word "Gabriel" on them....or...."Iohn Green"...we shouldn't be too particular after all!

Iohn (Racing) Green...there ya go! 8) 

Jimi


----------



## iNewbie

Sgian Dubh":3hzj2s1u said:


> iNewbie":3hzj2s1u said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paulm":3hzj2s1u said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still can't get my head around the idea that changing the colour is anything but a huge mistake and losing some of the heritage, there's no magic in grey!
> 
> 
> 
> It also means some people won't be buying new - who wants one in Green (a previous buy) and another in whatever....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What difference does a colour change make to performance if all else remains the same in terms of manufacturing standards, and the tool user's experience? I suppose it depends to some extent if you're perhaps a bit more interested in collecting than using. My Clifton no. 4 includes in the casting the identification mark 2000-1C, which I think indicates it was one of the original 100 no. 4s ever produced. I suppose that fairly rare characteristic might make the tool slightly more collectable than later models. But to be honest I'm really only interested in the fact the tool works well: that no. 4 and an old Spiers are my two 'go to' planes for smoothing tasks prior to any scraping, sanding and polishing.
> 
> If I were now looking to replace some of my other non-Clifton planes with a Clifton I can't see me scouring the second-hand market for the green coloured ones just because I've decided I'm not so keen on a different colour. If the Thomas Flinn versions retain all the engineering qualities of the original Clifton made models (or perhaps even improves them) and the price suits my budget, then green, grey, maroon, shocking pink (well, maybe not the last one) wouldn't be a deciding factor for me. Slainte.
Click to expand...


Nobody said the colour change altered performance, you just added that for a "collectors" jab . Something I'm not - but don't let your ignorance get in the way of your bigoted view... 

You like what you like and I'll like what I like. Your opinion is worth no less than mine. I'm not up for a Jellybean set. I like'em green. :mrgreen:


----------



## CStanford

The color change seems a bit left footed. The line needs a color change much less than it needs promotion, generally, and probably more tools, specifically. Perhaps Flinn felt like changing colors was a punctuation mark to the end of old ownership and the beginning of the new. The move, standing by itself as it apprently does, just seems silly. If part of a rollout of new tools or something of that nature maybe it makes sense. As it stands, it just looks like somebody rang up the production floor and said 'quit paintin' 'em green' as if whoever has such authority simply doesn't like the color green.


----------



## dunbarhamlin

CStanford":531umhd6 said:


> ... The line needs a color change much less than it needs promotion, generally, and probably more tools, specifically. Perhaps Flinn felt like *changing colors was a punctuation mark to the end of old ownership* and the beginning of the new...


Suspect that's exactly what it was, and damn all to do with "finish quality"


----------



## Peter Sefton

I have always liked the green Clifton's but as I have not yet seen them in graphite I can't really make much comment. The only people who have seen them in granite is Flinn's. 
I know it would be easier for them not to change anything but they are and good for them. I believe they were not happy with the quality of finish of the green and the new colour is a more expensive proccess and better finish. There is more development going on apart from colour change and I have been impressed how quickly they have been looking into other areas. These things will not hit the shelfs over night but will be seen in time.


----------



## Fromey

Not sure why there is still speculation on the colour change since we got this from the horse's mouth in this very thread.



thomasflinn":1nq9d2s1 said:


> We decided on a colour change due to the quality of paint work. If you check out your green ones, you will note they often look lumpy. This is not a finish we liked or preferred so the simple colour change was NOT thought out round a table whilst drinking coffee (I have never drunk a cup of coffee, nor do I ever plan on). The cost of paint is actually higher but we hoped this would give a more aesthetically pleasing look. It is also a great way to mark a change. A new start. The phoenix rising from the ashes. I am aiming to work for the new Clifton generation and encourage new users, not blemished by previous opinions of others. People willing to try something because they want to, not because they have read some personal opinions (often very in factual) on a forum.


----------



## deema

It's very interesting that the marketing and styling of a product has been dictated by 'lumpy pain't. Surely un-lumpy free paint exists? can be mixed by either an alternative supplier or indeed by discussions with the existing supplier. I have never seen this type of decision being made on this type of logic before.

I used to manufacture parts as a first tier supplier to the automotive industry. I rememberer fondly the conversations I had with them and can only imagine the response if I suggested that they needed to change the styling or colour of a vehicle because the paint I was using was a bit lumpy and instead of the specified green.

Before anyone highlights that car manufactures make millions of units and it's not a fair comparison, I also dealt with very very small vehicle manufactures who made less than a hundred a year.....same applied. Again, before the price issue comes is raised they all wanted their products for about 20% more tha the raw material price irrespective of the engineering effort required to manufacture them and a cost down of 10% year on year.. It was nickel and dime ,,.....but I learnt a lot of new and colourful language that has served me well over the years!!


----------



## CStanford

I have a tendency to believe that in the year 2014 green paint is available in a non-lumpy version, or why is the graphite coloured paint not lumpy but the green is?


----------



## Sgian Dubh

iNewbie":2cx3ri9d said:


> Nobody said the colour change altered performance, you just added that for a "collectors" jab.


A small poke you must admit, because I said "*a bit more interested in collecting than using*" which is not the same as saying *only interested in collecting*.


iNewbie":2cx3ri9d said:


> Something I'm not - but don't let your ignorance get in the way of your bigoted view...


Ha, ha. I might be ignorant, and perhaps bigoted - I can't tell, but your seeming outrage at my mild comment does come across quite strongly as a collector's defence. I don't see being a collector as a poor reason to buy things, whether it be planes, stamps, paintings, or whatever. With regard to Clifton planes I'm not motivated to buy one because of the colour, simply because I'm far more interested in the tool's functionality. The question I ask is, does it do the job I want it to do effectively at a price I can afford, yes or no? If yes, I'll buy it. If no, I'll look elsewhere.



iNewbie":2cx3ri9d said:


> I'm not up for a Jellybean set. I like'em green.


I like the green too but, to me, the colour is a superficial decoration. Slainte.


----------



## Sgian Dubh

paulm":2liazzl9 said:


> Richard, I guess it's fortunate that your customers don't take the same pragmatic I don't care what it looks like it's only a tool and does the job approach when buying their furniture, otherwise they would settle for flat pack from ikea or argos rather than commission one of your own pieces, after all they'll all hold a cup of coffee or whatever so why worry about what they look like !


I don't think you're really comparing like with like. I think the Clifton bench planes are attractive work tools in their green livery, but as I've just said to iNewbie the colour is, to me, a superficial decorative element, and whilst it could be argued that this is integral to the Clifton 'persona', I can't see how a different colour, as proposed or suggested by Thomas Flinn, alters the ability of the planes to perform, assuming there are no other changes in the manufacture and quality control. And maybe Thomas Flinn, in part, are saying the new colour marks the transition from one manufacturer to another - green came from Clifton: grey from Thomas Flinn. Slainte.


----------



## iNewbie

Sgian Dubh":2163mk8d said:


> your seeming outrage at my mild comment does come across quite strongly as a collector's defence.



I'm not outraged at all. Just havin' a joshing poke back.  




> I don't see being a collector as a poor reason to buy things, whether it be planes, stamps, paintings, or whatever. With regard to Clifton planes I'm not motivated to buy one because of the colour, simply because I'm far more interested in the tool's functionality. The question I ask is, does it do the job I want it to do effectively at a price I can afford, yes or no? If yes, I'll buy it. If no, I'll look elsewhere.



I don't have to bring the word _collector _into this scenario at all. You don't have to be a collector to want an item to match earlier items you may have purchased that are finished in a particular livery when you know the tools functionality is fine. 

I could only imagine if they made a Festo tool in a different colour to their brand marketing system how they'd be up in arms! :lol:


----------



## iNewbie

Sgian Dubh":ottchvm1 said:


> paulm":ottchvm1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Richard, I guess it's fortunate that your customers don't take the same pragmatic I don't care what it looks like it's only a tool and does the job approach when buying their furniture, otherwise they would settle for flat pack from ikea or argos rather than commission one of your own pieces, after all they'll all hold a cup of coffee or whatever so why worry about what they look like !
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you're really comparing like with like. I think the Clifton bench planes are attractive work tools in their green livery, but as I've just said to iNewbie the colour is, to me, a superficial decorative element, and whilst it could be argued that this is integral to the Clifton 'persona', I can't see how a different colour, as proposed or suggested by Thomas Flinn, alters the ability of the planes to perform, assuming there are no other changes in the manufacture and quality control. And maybe Thomas Flinn, in part, are saying the new colour marks the transition from one manufacturer to another - green came from Clifton: grey from Thomas Flinn. Slainte.
Click to expand...


Look at it another way. If you built 4 custom Oak chairs and one of the chairs was way darker than the others would the customer be happy. Would you say: _you should be more interested in planting your backside on it than its aesthetic look. Its as comfy as the others._

Peoples minds don't all work the same way.


----------



## Sgian Dubh

iNewbie":2fjnr23i said:


> If you built 4 custom Oak chairs and one of the chairs was way darker than the others would the customer be happy.


I think that argument is specious. If I build a set of four chairs I ensure the colour matches. There's no discussion needed. Now, if the client goes to another maker and asks for a couple of extra chairs to match, and the new maker can't do it, there might be a problem, but that's between the new maker and my old client - not my problem.

But even that argument doesn't hold water because I'm a custom designer maker. I do one-offs or limited sets the same. Another custom maker should be able to match an existing pattern. I've done it myself. But neither Clifton or Thomas Flinn are custom tool makers, they're both relatively small scale mass producers. Perhaps they're best described as batch production specialists and I suspect their production is based upon a series of standard processes.

Okay, so it's a colour change proposal, and this is alienating some of the old Clifton customers. Perhaps they'll change their mind, maybe they won't. I imagine the final decision (if not already set in stone) will be based upon research the company has undertaken, or has yet to undertake. Slainte.


----------



## Eric The Viking

Nobody's mentioned Bridge City yet (*ducks and runs)...

I have a degree in marketing (for what that's worth). When an established brand is bought and immediately changed, one knows to worry. The implication is, to put it politely, a lack of gumption.

"Branding 101": if money has been invested in getting brand recognition, and the brand values are good, change things at your peril. 

This thread is a good example of why that's true. The issues with Clifton seem largely to have been price, supply chain and, to a much lesser extent, quality. Brand image was NOT the problem, yet it seems to be what's being changed. More fools them.

Mr."Flinn", please fix the production, price* and sales channel issues, but if you're sensible, quickly go back to green and leave the brand values alone. Otherwise you'll be destroying the thing you just paid a lot of money for.

E.

*It's already been covered: volume vs. value. You probably can't go "Bridge City" in the UK, as the market over here isn't big enough to sustain that niche. And you need volume to knock down variable costs to an acceptable level. That means pricing the tools to be affordable for MORE people, the trick being to do this without hitting quality. It can be done, but it rarely is done.

[thinks]I wonder if he's still reading this thread, or he opted out after the rather pompous comment about coffee, etc.[/]


----------



## deema

The focus on online marketing is being completely missed at the moment. It is a tragedy when popular uTube contributors such as Paul Sellers are promoting a Canadian brand of saws and other tools. If nothing else, please spend the marketing budget on getting influential people like this to use, promote and blog about your products. 

The unplugged woodworker is also promoting the same brand!


----------



## jimi43

Lordy guys...you REALLY don't understand modern marketing...they are doing it now...YOU are doing it now..and the money they could have spent has been saved by just mentioning a paint change...welcome to viral marketing!

Jim


----------



## iNewbie

You mean: Clifton has Ebola, Jimi?


----------



## jimi43

iNewbie":39406r0j said:


> You mean: Clifton has Ebola, Jimi?



HA! Good analogy!! :mrgreen: 

But the patient isn't looking quite so green anymore! :wink: 

Jimi


----------



## Peter Sefton

Eric The Viking":19l56mcn said:


> Nobody's mentioned Bridge City yet (*ducks and runs)...
> 
> 
> 
> Mr."Flinn", please fix the production, price* and sales channel issues, but if you're sensible, quickly go back to green and leave the brand values alone. Otherwise you'll be destroying the thing you just paid a lot of money for.
> 
> 
> 
> [thinks]I wonder if he's still reading this thread, or he opted out after the rather pompous comment about coffee, etc.[/]




Eric the Mr Flinn your talking about is a lady who drinks tea! I am not sure if she is still reading.
Cheers Peter


----------



## CStanford

Judging by this forum Clifton seems to be less popular in Britain than Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, and a Chinese brand of all things.

The new owners need to understand why this is the case and react accordingly. I'm quite sure that it wasn't an issue of paint color, though now they've made it one.


----------



## iNewbie

CStanford":93sdcx86 said:


> Judging by this forum Clifton seems to be less popular in Britain than Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, and a Chinese brand of all things.



Once the Clifton Planes match the aboves (being black) the universe might right-itself - I'm sure Henry Ford is behind the decision: _You can have any colour_... :mrgreen:


----------



## Mr_P

jimi43":1z3hh4q5 said:


> Lordy guys...you REALLY don't understand modern marketing...they are doing it now...YOU are doing it now..and the money they could have spent has been saved by just mentioning a paint change...welcome to viral marketing!
> 
> Jim




Modern ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

and bet they weren't the first.


----------



## Eric The Viking

Peter Sefton":27kqawgj said:


> Eric The Viking":27kqawgj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody's mentioned Bridge City yet (*ducks and runs)...
> 
> Mr."Flinn", please fix the production, price* and sales channel issues, but if you're sensible, quickly go back to green and leave the brand values alone. Otherwise you'll be destroying the thing you just paid a lot of money for.
> 
> [thinks]I wonder if he's still reading this thread, or he opted out after the rather pompous comment about coffee, etc.[/]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric the Mr Flinn your talking about is a lady who drinks tea! I am not sure if she is still reading.
> Cheers Peter
Click to expand...


 Happy to be corrected.

Ms. "Flinn", please...

Seriously, in my day job, we're obsessive about tracking how the business might be publicly discussed. It's the week-end, so I'll cut some slack, and whoever-it-is-doesn't might reasonably not want to comment, but the fact Clifton _is_ being discussed here ought to matter.

Remind me, how many members are there now presently active? It's quite a few, including some in possible export markets 

Tracking on-line activity isn't the same as making policy from it (the latter being ill-advised in the absence of other inputs), but it is really important.

As is sticking to good brand values.

E.

PS: "New Coke" is one of those case studies that pop up on every course - you can argue whether it was brand extension (another no-no) or just trashing brand values. It doesn't matter - the outcome is the same. "Miller Light," incidentally, is the classic brand extension disaster.


----------



## jimi43

Mr_P":2zaj8382 said:


> jimi43":2zaj8382 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lordy guys...you REALLY don't understand modern marketing...they are doing it now...YOU are doing it now..and the money they could have spent has been saved by just mentioning a paint change...welcome to viral marketing!
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern ?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke
> 
> and bet they weren't the first.
Click to expand...


A relative term...as opposed to "Victorian" :mrgreen: 

Jim


----------



## CStanford

Eric The Viking":3fzltzdq said:


> Peter Sefton":3fzltzdq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric The Viking":3fzltzdq said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody's mentioned Bridge City yet (*ducks and runs)...
> 
> Mr."Flinn", please fix the production, price* and sales channel issues, but if you're sensible, quickly go back to green and leave the brand values alone. Otherwise you'll be destroying the thing you just paid a lot of money for.
> 
> [thinks]I wonder if he's still reading this thread, or he opted out after the rather pompous comment about coffee, etc.[/]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric the Mr Flinn your talking about is a lady who drinks tea! I am not sure if she is still reading.
> Cheers Peter
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Happy to be corrected.
> 
> Ms. "Flinn", please...
> 
> Seriously, in my day job, we're obsessive about tracking how the business might be publicly discussed. It's the week-end, so I'll cut some slack, and whoever-it-is-doesn't might reasonably not want to comment, but the fact Clifton _is_ being discussed here ought to matter.
> 
> Remind me, how many members are there now presently active? It's quite a few, including some in possible export markets
> 
> Tracking on-line activity isn't the same as making policy from it (the latter being ill-advised in the absence of other inputs), but it is really important.
> 
> As is sticking to good brand values.
> 
> E.
> 
> PS: "New Coke" is one of those case studies that pop up on every course - you can argue whether it was brand extension (another no-no) or just trashing brand values. It doesn't matter - the outcome is the same. "Miller Light," incidentally, is the classic brand extension disaster.
Click to expand...


Huh? Miller 'Lite' is one of the most successful brand launches in brewing history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Lite

"Miller Lite was introduced nationally in 1975. Miller's approach worked where the two previous light beers had failed, and Miller's early production totals of 12.8 million barrels quickly increased to 24.2 million barrels by 1977 as Miller rose to 2nd place in the American brewing marketplace. "

Doesn't sound like a disaster to me.

I certainly hope that you aren't claiming knowledge of brand management or marketing.


----------



## Eric The Viking

CStanford":3w1e4dqn said:


> Huh? Miller 'Lite' is one of the most successful brand launches in brewing history.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Lite
> 
> "Miller Lite was introduced nationally in 1975. Miller's approach worked where the two previous light beers had failed, and Miller's early production totals of 12.8 million barrels quickly increased to 24.2 million barrels by 1977 as Miller rose to 2nd place in the American brewing marketplace. "
> 
> Doesn't sound like a disaster to me.
> 
> I certainly hope that you aren't claiming knowledge of brand management or marketing.



Who might have written that, I wonder?

When Miller launched Miller light, the combined sales of both the standard and light beers turned out to be less than the standard beer on its own prior to the launch. And they had the extra cost of the launch campaign and the splitting of the production plant, etc.

Miller researched it and discovered that because they'd broken the 1:1 relationship between brand name and product, people had shifted brands.

If it's succeeded now (39 years later, I might point out), it's because tastes have changed long-term. It was held to be a disaster to learn from when I was doing my degree 25 years ago.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

Thomas Flinm management must be delighted to be offered so much free business advice, unasked for. Particularly where it comes from people untroubled by access to their accounts, sales figures, costings and the market research that they presumably have done before acquiring Clifton :? 

I'm sure they have some issues to face - the Clifton woodworking tools always looked a bit like someone at Clico's hobby product. Such a traditional range that the availability of cheap secondhand Record and Stanley products must limit sales. And losing market share with the loss of outlets like Axminster. I am sure they have thought long and hard about the way forward.


----------



## CStanford

Eric The Viking":1qxp1k6w said:


> CStanford":1qxp1k6w said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? Miller 'Lite' is one of the most successful brand launches in brewing history.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Lite
> 
> "Miller Lite was introduced nationally in 1975. Miller's approach worked where the two previous light beers had failed, and Miller's early production totals of 12.8 million barrels quickly increased to 24.2 million barrels by 1977 as Miller rose to 2nd place in the American brewing marketplace. "
> 
> Doesn't sound like a disaster to me.
> 
> I certainly hope that you aren't claiming knowledge of brand management or marketing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who might have written that, I wonder?
> 
> When Miller launched Miller light, the combined sales of both the standard and light beers turned out to be less than the standard beer on its own prior to the launch. And they had the extra cost of the launch campaign and the splitting of the production plant, etc.
> 
> Miller researched it and discovered that because they'd broken the 1:1 relationship between brand name and product, people had shifted brands.
> 
> If it's succeeded now (39 years later, I might point out), it's because tastes have changed long-term. It was held to be a disaster to learn from when I was doing my degree 25 years ago.
Click to expand...


39 years later? It started an entire marketing movement the likes of which have not really been seen since.

Miller Lite, launched in those white-label bottles as well as white cans in early 1975, was an immediate smash, propelling Miller into the No. 2 market-share spot behind archrival Anheuser-Busch, which felt compelled to introduce its own light-beer brand, Natural Light, in 1977. (In January, MillerCoors rolled out Miller Lite in the original white cans to a strong commercial reception. The white-label bottles were replaced in the late 1990s and haven’t been seen since. Not only will they return starting in late August, but MillerCoors spokesman Jonathan Stern emailed that “in October, you will see a new look on all Miller Lite packaging that includes a new bottle.”)

Far beyond the impact on the fortunes of its brewery, Miller Lite birthed the light-beer segment as well as spawned a mini-revolution in American food and drink. Suddenly, everything was light—or lite. “The word skittered across hundreds of new product labels (more than 350 in the first half of the eighties),” the New York Times noted in a 2002 obituary for John Murphy [president of Miller]. “Light became lite and took on a life of its own.”


----------



## iNewbie

Miller - WSJ


now back to the Green green grass of home - Love, Tom.


----------



## Vann

Sheffield Tony":23hdr8e0 said:


> I'm sure they have some issues to face - the Clifton woodworking tools always looked a bit like someone at Clico's hobby product. Such a traditional range that the availability of cheap secondhand Record and Stanley products must limit sales. And losing market share with the loss of outlets like Axminster.


I'd have thought that Quangsheng would have the biggest impact on Clifton sales. 

Secondhand Record and Stanleys have always been around, it's those of us looking for something new/better who would be potential Clifton purchasers. But Quangsheng and the new Stanley _Sweethart_ range would be undermining that market (at least for those who can't or won't afford the Clifton/Veritas/Lie-Nielsen prices). A stab in the dark - I'd guess they've reduced Clifton's sales by two-thirds.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## matthewwh

If anything we have sold more Cliftons since Quangsheng came along. There are very few customers who weigh up the two against each other, more often they know exactly what they want and just buy it.

From a retailer's perspective, the problem of getting replacement stock quickly was always more of an issue, which I understand is the first thing that Katie has sunk investment and time into. It was more a mild frustration than anything but the improvement is very welcome indeed. 

As for marketing, a ten pager on here isn't a bad start. I'm not sure if the latest post on the new Clifton Planes Facebook page means that they are exhibiting at MITEX or if they have just received an export order, but in either case it's good news.


----------



## jimi43

Have you sold more Cliftons since the announcement of the "colour change"......I would be interested to see if the viral marketing (accidental or deliberate...I care not)...has worked?

The problem is...that without the production issues being solved...promotion of any sort will just exacerbate that problem will it not?

Jim


----------



## lanemaux

*The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about*. Some fella named Oscar said that I believe.


----------



## Peter Sefton

We used to sell more Clifton's than QS but now we deffinatly sell more WoodRiver than green Clifton. 
Most of us are still carrying green stock as the new graphite is still in production. Only time will tell as to how the sales will change after the new planes have been seen in person. One of the first outings will be Harrogate and customers will be able to see both brands along side each other and make up their own minds.
Not only is a big shipment going out to Russia but also just gone out to Australia!


----------



## Fromey

If they made them in bronze with green paint, they'd sell even better down in Oz I expect.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

:lol: Yeah - a No.8 in bronze and green could be quite impressive.


----------



## jimi43

All of this is rather sad to watch....

Can you imagine going into Jaguar and saying...can I have a red one....I find the paint on the green ones rather lumpy and being told they MAY ONLY just have graphite ones soon once they've finished painting the backlog!

Or am I being too simplistic? #-o 

Jimi


----------



## iNewbie

Un-lumpy green paint isn't available in this day and age. \/ 

Imho Mclaren lost themselves when they changed from the old Orange & White livery. The word Dull comes to mind.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

I suspect that it is not the green paint that is lumpy, but that its gloss finish reveals the lumpiness of the casting more so than the less glossy graphite finish.

I'm not convinced that British Racing Green is particularly regarded as a sign of quality throughout the world these days. To me, that glossy green, taken with the steel and bits of brass bling has the look of something from the age of steam. The graphite looks much more contemporary. I like it. But I have enough old Record planes, which still work fine. Just so long as they don't mess with their irons, which are rather special and fit the old Records quite nicely.


----------



## jimi43

Sheffield Tony":1hnjvsrm said:


> I suspect that it is not the green paint that is lumpy, but that its gloss finish reveals the lumpiness of the casting more so than the less glossy graphite finish.
> 
> I'm not convinced that British Racing Green is particularly regarded as a sign of quality throughout the world these days. To me, that glossy green, taken with the steel and bits of brass bling has the look of something from the age of steam. The graphite looks much more contemporary. I like it. But I have enough old Record planes, which still work fine. Just so long as they don't mess with their irons, which are rather special and fit the old Records quite nicely.



Oh boy Tony...this has so much mileage you can't believe....lumpy castings indeed...it only gets better!

Perhaps they should get a few kilos of Java in and have a chat about that aspect of the finish! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

I guarantee that there will be a raft of posts from "Mr Angry of Tunbridge Wells".... Clifton owners aghast at your suggestion of lumpiness upon the casting! :wink: 

LOL!!! 

I am loving this thread on so many levels! :mrgreen: 

Jimi


----------



## iNewbie

May I suggest calling the Homepride boys in to cure the lumpiness!?


Youtube


----------



## Stuart

What a load of tosh and spitefulness or shall we be kind can it playground banter, about Clifton? To run down the name of a British manufacturer like some have on this thread is shameful and probably by persons who have never used a Clifton plane. 
I have Clifton planes and the casting is great and I can find no lumpiness in the paint. I BELIEVE they are a great British made tool and am pleased they are still being made here in the UK when so many great British name/brand tools are now made in the far east and are real rubbish.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

jimi43":30xxgp5k said:


> I guarantee that there will be a raft of posts from "Mr Angry of Tunbridge Wells".... Clifton owners aghast at your suggestion of lumpiness upon the casting! :wink:



How right you are :lol:


----------



## Stuart

Not about the lumpiness of the castings just the willingness of some to who have probably never used a Clifton to run down a British company by silly comments


----------



## jimi43

Sheffield Tony":6o1romka said:


> jimi43":6o1romka said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guarantee that there will be a raft of posts from "Mr Angry of Tunbridge Wells".... Clifton owners aghast at your suggestion of lumpiness upon the casting! :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How right you are :lol:
Click to expand...


There ya go!! :mrgreen: 

I seem to remember that is was the company themselves who brought the issue of lumpiness up...



> "We decided on a colour change due to the quality of paint work. If you check out your green ones, you will note they often look lumpy. This is not a finish we liked or preferred so the simple colour change was NOT thought out round a table whilst drinking coffee (I have never drunk a cup of coffee, nor do I ever plan on)."



But there ya go...

Jimi


----------



## bridger

hard to not read that as they plan to cut costs a bit by reducing finishing on the rough castings, eh?


----------



## bugbear

bridger":3e8t1ofv said:


> hard to not read that as they plan to cut costs a bit by reducing finishing on the rough castings, eh?



If a paint give a good cosmetic finish on a non-working surface, and reduces cost, I say bring on the paint. That's no more than intelligent industrial design.

BugBear


----------



## Phil Pascoe

But they wouldn't sell as many to people who buy them to look at then would they?  That would offset any gain made by reducing the price?


----------



## Sheffield Tony

I'm not sure why the pessimism about the change of ownership of Clifton. Flinn must be quite used to having to market their saws despite the abundance of cheap DIY grade saws. I know they have their more basic variants like the Lynx brand, but I don't think you can accuse them of going downmarket with the PAX range.

When I suggested that the green perhaps showed up the finish of the casting, rather than being lumpy paint, I didn't mean to suggest that the new colour might be to hide a rougher casting, but that it might make the existing one look better. I think it does.


----------



## iNewbie

Its not a glossy finish so you see less of what they deem as being fugly. Only its like taking Red out of a Ferrari, though...


----------



## Noel

iNewbie":31zkky9s said:


> Its not a glossy finish so you see less of what they deem as being fugly. Only its like taking Red out of a Ferrari, though...



Red has been in decreasing numbers for many years in Ferrari. White and yellow is becoming popular.

As for the planes, look great to me in the new colour but function, personally, is more more important than beauty.

Clicking on close-up it does seem a better finish too:

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 4086_o.jpg


----------



## matthewwh

Well said Tony,

It would be very easy for people without a British sense of sarcasm and 'taking the mickey' to read this and get completely the wrong end of the stick.

In the same way as painting a room in a paler colour makes it look more spacious, Katie has selected a colour that accentuates the refinement of the castings. Perhaps this is the first of many benefits we will see from having a lady on the management team?

Philip, Katie and Christian continue to have my full and unstinting support, on both saws and planes there are many reasons to consider their products among the finest commercially manufactured examples of their type in the world.

Many people are not aware that Clifton was built from what remained when Record moved production to the far east. In a similar way, Clico auger bits are made by the men and equipment from Ridgway. 

Their first batch of castings were poured by the firm that used to cast for Record. Having been denuded of the massive contract for casting Record planes, the foundry was heading irreversibly towards administration. Clifton caught the tail of the whip and ended up with a batch of poor castings and lost all of their expensive casting patterns. 

They started again with new patterns and another foundry and from batch 2 onwards have continually produced exceptionally accurate planes. We used to have a policy of inspecting every Clifton that we sold because there was so much muttering about them on the internet (originating from a review of a plane from the first batch and perpetuated by fans of competing products). After five years without seeing my feeler gauge pass under my straightedge, I came to the conclusion that I was wasting my time re-checking what Geoff and Neil had already checked repeatedly during production and again as they are individually hand assembled.

A Clifton plane is not a mass produced product, they are made with love and care in small batches. Yes, the stamp on the blade might not be millimetre perfect, hefting a 2 kilo forging, on the end of a stick, glowing red hot at 800 degrees C, into a press at chest height and getting it within quarter of an inch of a line you can't see is bloody good going.

If you want a handmade plane to look at and measure the perfection of with your micrometer - buy a Lie-Nielsen, if you want a handmade plane to use, with a forged iron and a slow ground fully annealed casting - buy a Clifton. If you don't want a handmade plane, buy a mass produced one.


----------



## Newbie_Neil

Hi Matthew,

I don't want to start a plane "war", but I'm interested in your comment.



matthewwh":54x9fdl2 said:


> If you want a handmade plane to look at and measure the perfection of with your micrometer - buy a Lie-Nielsen, if you want a handmade plane to use, with a forged iron and a slow ground fully annealed casting - buy a Clifton.



Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?

Thanks,
Neil


----------



## Fromey

I own a LN low angle block plane and a no. 9 mitre plane. They are certainly not micrometer tolerance perfection. I've still had to re-flatten the backs of the blades and do a touch of filing for hand-catching casting lines.


----------



## jimi43

> it would be very easy for people without a British sense of sarcasm and 'taking the mickey' to read this and get completely the wrong end of the stick.



It certainly would Matthew...and not only overseas it would seem.

You know me well Matthew...and my passion for all things British...especially old traditional ones.

I don't see anything wrong with Clifton planes as they stand if you want an ancient ( and may I say...American) design in a new plane...it's not for me.

If Flinn (with an F or an M :wink: ) improve the company to ensure its continued success then a huge thanks from me for sure.

BUT...don't you think we Brits care about whether they succeed or not. All of us? Sure we do..which is why we are contributing to this thread...in the open and with the honesty and humour for which Brits are renowned. It seems to me that the colonials amongst us are the biggest supporters too...which has generally been the case in my experience.

I wouldn't buy a Clifton plane although I have owned a few in the past and love them...and they make great currency...perhaps people trust the great "greenback!" :mrgreen: You certainly don't have a problem selling them so you can raise money to buy British infill planes that's for sure! :wink: 

I maintain my view that accidentally or deliberately, the colour change has raised the brand awareness within the virtual world we now live...THE marketplace and that is either very lucky or very clever...I prefer to think that even tea drinkers have the smarts for it to be the latter! 8) 

And if the traditionalists want the green then I suggest Katie et al keep BOTH colourways...a kind of "one lump or two" approach! :mrgreen: 

Good luck Mr & Mrs Flinn (with an "i")....may you win this battle of the best!

Jimi


----------



## Peter Sefton

Newbie_Neil":1fbs45tb said:


> Hi Matthew,
> 
> I don't want to start a plane "war", but I'm interested in your comment.
> 
> 
> 
> matthewwh":1fbs45tb said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a handmade plane to look at and measure the perfection of with your micrometer - buy a Lie-Nielsen, if you want a handmade plane to use, with a forged iron and a slow ground fully annealed casting - buy a Clifton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?
> 
> Thanks,
> Neil
Click to expand...


I would choose a Clifton every time, the plane has soul and is hand crafted and finished. Any one who believes the hype that the other plane makers make perfect planes without any issues is living in the land of make believe (or a marketing man's ideal customer).
The fact that Thomas Flinn have taken over and are reinvesting in this great British product should be applauded. One early poor review came out years ago and people hang onto every word - the perpetuation of this is ridiculous. I believe the review may have been removed now or rewritten but I have not seen it. 
The Smoothing plane review in Fine Woodworking May/June 2011 gives a much more balanced tool test of Smoothing planes with 14 planes tested in detail. The conclusion was the Clifton No 4 and the $50 more expensive Lie-Nielsen came out joint winners, with the Veritas and WoodRiver best value for money.
The comment passed on by the same author earlier in this thread about a Sheffield machine filed hand saw which cost £50 being rubbish, was he comparing it to a £200 Lie-Nielsen? If so what credibility can you give to such a comment - compare apples with apples!


----------



## Newbie_Neil

Hi Peter,



Peter Sefton":2kmmsoh1 said:


> Newbie_Neil":2kmmsoh1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Matthew, I don't want to start a plane "war", but I'm interested in your comment.
> 
> 
> 
> matthewwh":2kmmsoh1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a handmade plane to look at and measure the perfection of with your micrometer - buy a Lie-Nielsen, if you want a handmade plane to use, with a forged iron and a slow ground fully annealed casting - buy a Clifton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?
> 
> Thanks,
> Neil
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would choose a Clifton every time, the plane has soul and is hand crafted and finished. Any one who believes the hype that the other plane makers make perfect planes without any issues is living in the land of make believe (or a marketing man's ideal customer).
Click to expand...


Thank you for your comments.

Neil


----------



## Andrea

And what about un-lumpy lillac?







http://www.legnofilia.it/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7904

Is it not a sufficiently British color?


----------



## matthewwh

Newbie_Neil":3tzpjt1a said:


> Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?
> 
> Thanks,
> Neil



Absolutely, without a moments hesitation.

When honed at the same angle, hand forged carbon steel is only 6% less wear resistant than A2 but will take a sharper edge and therefore produce a smoother surface on the wood - one of the main aims of the exercise. 

Carbon can also be differentially hardened, so the blade is self damping, air hardening steels can only be through hardened.

With Clifton's extra shaping on the castings, ring testing, careful annealing process and 20% machine feed rate, grey is capable of withstanding quite severe impacts, but unlike ductile it is also rigid - it can't bend - grey cast iron surface plates are manufactured in exactly the same way and for the same reasons. 

Ductile was developed for underground pipes, preventing leaks with its ability to deform significantly without rupturing, but if it's bendy it can't also be rigid. Looking at the finish they achieve I doubt if LN run their machines at full chat, but they wouldn't alter the properties of the material if they did.

Clifton also incorporate the milled slot for the frog to ride in from the original bedrock design, so the azimuth of the frog face is always correct. LN mill the bed to full width and the frog just sits on top of it. Minor issue, but if the bloke making it takes his time getting it just right, it's one more thing you'll never need to think about.

The quality and accuracy of ground surfaces is the same, although Clifton don't make a marketing point of working to half the required tolerance, (they probably should). 

There are a few points in the marketing literature that draw your attention away from these features, like the number of turns between forward and reverse on the blade advance. Clifton got theirs down to half a turn because enough people grumbled about it, but they could never work out why, if the underside of the lever cap is prepared properly and the thread is lubricated with pencil then the wheel should spin freely between one and the other with a flick of the finger.

The Americans do beautifully finished high precision castings like few others in the world (they even cast their car crankshafts rather than forging them) so as an objet d'art any LN looks absolutely stunning. The meticulous machining and hand craftsmanship that goes into making them is also of an exceptionally high standard and in the U.S. at least they represent extremely good value for money. 

But yes, I'd still walk past one to get a Clifton.


----------



## JohnPW

Just from looking at photos, I think I prefer the grey version. That green looks a bit garish to me, whereas the grey looks more subtle, even refined, and more in keeping with old woodworking tools, which are mostly shades of brown (wood) and grey (metal).

Also the green one looks more glossy which will show up the (relatively) rough casting underneath the paint.

To say they are hand made or hand crafted is misuse of the term, IMO. 

Re the blade stamp, why don't they stamp it after forging but before hardening and tempering? Or do they forge then quench straight away without letting it cooling down to room temperature?


----------



## Andrea

matthewwh":2p0jsiy3 said:


> and the thread is lubricated with pencil



Do you see now that even the graphite begins to have his own logical explanation?


----------



## Sheffield Tony

That stamp is quite a heavy one. If you watch the How It's Made episode, you'll see the stamping spreads the top of the iron quite a lot, hence cutting to shape after stamping. I love the mix of technologies, that the iron is traditionally forged and stamped, then - I think - laser cut to shape.


----------



## iNewbie

Noel":187kw69y said:


> iNewbie":187kw69y said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its not a glossy finish so you see less of what they deem as being fugly. Only its like taking Red out of a Ferrari, though...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red has been in decreasing numbers for many years in Ferrari. White and yellow is becoming popular.
> 
> As for the planes, look great to me in the new colour but function, personally, is more more important than beauty.
> 
> Clicking on close-up it does seem a better finish too:
> 
> https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 4086_o.jpg
Click to expand...


But Noel, when the word Ferrari is mentioned the colour red comes to mind - think of the Tifosi. 

BRG for Jaguar, Metallic Silver for Mercedes. 

Flinn go for a no colour Pencil Lead finish. Its like Kelly Brook with no breasts. I'll go draw the curtains... :lol:


----------



## Peter Sefton

iNewbie":3u6vb47r said:


> Noel":3u6vb47r said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iNewbie":3u6vb47r said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its not a glossy finish so you see less of what they deem as being fugly. Only its like taking Red out of a Ferrari, though...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red has been in decreasing numbers for many years in Ferrari. White and yellow is becoming popular.
> 
> As for the planes, look great to me in the new colour but function, personally, is more more important than beauty.
> 
> Clicking on close-up it does seem a better finish too:
> 
> https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 4086_o.jpg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But Noel, when the word Ferrari is mentioned the colour red comes to mind - think of the Tifosi.
> 
> BRG for Jaguar, Metallic Silver for Mercedes.
> 
> Flinn go for a no colour Pencil Lead finish. Its like Kelly Brook with no breasts. I'll go draw the curtains... :lol:
Click to expand...



You closing the curtains and thinking about a breast less Kelly Brook is to much information :!:


----------



## Newbie_Neil

Hi Matthew,



matthewwh":ptgwk0at said:


> Newbie_Neil":ptgwk0at said:
> 
> 
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that if you had a choice between USING an LN or a Clifton, that you would choose the Clifton?
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely, without a moments hesitation.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the excellent explanation.

Neil


----------



## jimi43

WOW! With the mention of the fine Kentish lass this thread has stooped to an all time high!! :mrgreen: 

Nice post there Matthew!

Now...Clifton infills..... :wink: 

Green wood I think.... :mrgreen: 

Jimi


----------



## iNewbie

Peter Sefton":jg5o0a9m said:


> Flinn go for a no colour Pencil Lead finish. Its like Kelly Brook with no breasts. I'll go draw the curtains... :lol:




You closing the curtains and thinking about a breast less Kelly Brook is to much information :!:[/quote]

Its ok, I have Flippers and a Snorkel on. I'm going in!


----------



## jimi43

Andrea...that plane is hurting my eyes!!!

Take that paint off immediately or grind off the "British Made" in the casting if you would... :wink: 

You could have LEAST chosen a decent model! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jimi


----------



## Vann

Peter Sefton":3iq8gex0 said:


> One early poor review came out years ago and people hang onto every word


Speaking of hanging on to every word... several years ago Andy King wrote an article about Clico in which he says...


> In 1987, then, when the opportunity arose to acquire Morrisons, a Sheffield forging company, Clico bought into a very different set of skills to those used in the aircraft industry, ones that rely on traditional techniques that date back for generations...
> 
> ...Morrisons’ Burton Weir works is split into two parts, one part specifically for the manufacture of the range of Clifton planes, the other for manufacturing augers, hollow mortise chisels and other wood cutting tools sold under the Clico and Morrisons brands.





matthewwh":3iq8gex0 said:


> Many people are not aware that Clifton was built from what remained when Record moved production to the far east. In a similar way, *Clico auger bits are made by the men and equipment from Ridgway*.


Hmm... Morrisons or Ridgeway?



Andrea":3iq8gex0 said:


> And what about un-lumpy lillac?
> Is it not a sufficiently British color?
> 
> Image


I don't know who that woman is Andrea, but I think she must be Italian. Doesn't the Pope wear that colour too sometimes.... :mrgreen: 

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Owl

A plane is simply a tool to do a particular job, if it does the job it was made for then what does it matter what colour the manufacturer paints it.


----------



## iNewbie

Owl":293uvop8 said:


> A plane is simply a tool to do a particular job, if it does the job it was made for then what does it matter what colour the manufacturer paints it.



Is that a question for the new owner(s)?


----------



## John15

I think the grey colour looks far better than the green and I wish Thomas Flinn every success with the Clifton brand.

John


----------



## Vann

I think the green colour looks far better than the grey, but I too wish Thomas Flinn every success with the Clifton brand.

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

The best of luck to them, but I'll be sticking to my black and roundel blue ones.


----------



## Kalimna

What I liked about the green (and I have a couple of Cliffies) is that marker of tradition, and also individuality. Not really an indicator of quality, but given that Clifton/LN/Veritas are a gnatsfart away from each other (in reality) in terms of performance, I like the fact that they have a different look. If there was a problem with the green finish, why not move to blue? Or purple? Or any other colour? Or bare metal with a protective clear coat (though I have no idea what that coat may be)? But grey? LN - grey. Veritas - grey. QS - grey. Different shades of almost the same colour from (now) the 4 main 'quality' brands.
However, if, in the process, it brings greater sales whilst maintaining quality, then really what does the colour matter?

Cheers,
Adam


----------



## thomasflinn

Whoop whoop up to 12 pages ... I must be doing something right to keep you all interested  

Top marks to:
SheffieldTony 
Peter Sefton
Matthewwh
Stuart 

#teamflinn 

I think the opening sentence should have been a clue to how this forum thread could have been reading:
"Clifton planes have been saved..."
True support to the British tooling industry means buying products and supporting traditional skills and trades, which without us would have been lost. 

Thank you all for all your input on here!

P.S. Definitely not a Ms!


----------



## Jacob

What about tartan or polka dots?


----------



## iNewbie

You've logged into the woodworking forum, not your knitting one. :mrgreen:


----------



## PAC1

thomasflinn":bgtl92k2 said:


> Whoop whoop up to 12 pages ... I must be doing something right to keep you all interested
> 
> Top marks to:
> SheffieldTony
> Peter Sefton
> Matthewwh
> Stuart
> 
> #teamflinn
> 
> I think the opening sentence should have been a clue to how this forum thread could have been reading:
> "Clifton planes have been saved..."
> True support to the British tooling industry means buying products and supporting traditional skills and trades, which without us would have been lost.
> 
> Thank you all for all your input on here!
> 
> P.S. Definitely not a Ms!



Mrs Flinn. I think you will find that most of us are keen to see the Clifton brand soar and will support you by buying products. My clifton no 4 is my go to smoothing plane and my 3 in 1 shoulder plane is absolutely top notch. the problem is that if you want us to buy more product you need to increase the range. you have the bench plane market covered but there is a need for a british block plane and more. I know that requires investment and time to develop but it needs to happen. Good luck


----------



## Jacob

iNewbie":2ymv8s87 said:


> You've logged into the woodworking forum, not your knitting one. :mrgreen:


I want my tools colour coordinated with my cardigans.


----------



## jimi43

I love the Wilde reference..."The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about" and it's so true.

This thread..and others circulating since Flinn took the reigns is highly welcomed in my eyes in that it raises brand awareness outside of the normal devotee crowd and with proper management of the company...particularly in the area of meeting demand...can only result in a positive outcome.

It's all too easy to get sidetracked into minor issues when it's the major issues that need addressing.

The major issues I see are:

1) Balanced production/demand formula
2) Cost/value analysis with particular attention to competition
3) Expanded network of distribution...I applaud the existing retailers but clearly wider access to products is essential to maintain healthy sales (in careful concert with 1) above)
4) Immediate evaluation of the product range to offer what is needed by buyer consensus rather than relying on existing designs

The minor issues I see are:

1) Paint colorways
2) Brand stamp alignment

I still don't want a Clifton plane (except maybe a block plane if it were available!)....simply because I have what I need in other designs BUT this doesn't mean that I don't wholeheartedly support Flinn in their enterprise nor British industry in general...quite the opposite.

I see feedback here and in other media as nothing other than healthy...be it supportive OR critical and it is both naive and wrong to think that if someone has something to say about any product or company...then they should be criticised for speaking out. Clearly there are enough people contributing to this thread with concerns to make them very real...regardless of what "loyal patriots" may think.

I have a good feeling about the new Flinn/Clifton marriage...only good can come from a listening company.

Jim


----------



## PAC1

Jacob":3lh26fxp said:


> iNewbie":3lh26fxp said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've logged into the woodworking forum, not your knitting one. :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> I want my tools colour coordinated with my cardigans.
Click to expand...


That is what Clifton have done as in my workshop after two or three days my Clothes are grey


----------



## iNewbie

Jacob":plem4nir said:


> iNewbie":plem4nir said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've logged into the woodworking forum, not your knitting one. :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> I want my tools colour coordinated with my cardigans.
Click to expand...


Clifton Cardigans? You could be onto something. Apparel is a big seller - and promotes at the same time. Un-mulesed wool so as not to upset some...

Seriously: Roy Cropper.


----------



## Owl

iNewbie":2hhjs6nc said:


> Owl":2hhjs6nc said:
> 
> 
> 
> A plane is simply a tool to do a particular job, if it does the job it was made for then what does it matter what colour the manufacturer paints it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a question for the new owner(s)?
Click to expand...


Newbie, it isn't the new owners that raised the colour issue so why would you think I was addressing them ?
All good equipment made in Britain ( as opposed to the mass of foreign rubbish ) should be supported irrespective of whatever colour it is.

Brian


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## tobytools

thomasflinn":15lsd7xv said:


> Whoop whoop up to 12 pages ... I must be doing something right to keep you all interested
> 
> Top marks to:
> SheffieldTony
> Peter Sefton
> Matthewwh
> Stuart
> 
> #teamflinn
> 
> I think the opening sentence should have been a clue to how this forum thread could have been reading:
> "Clifton planes have been saved..."
> True support to the British tooling industry means buying products and supporting traditional skills and trades, which without us would have been lost.
> 
> Thank you all for all your input on here!
> 
> P.S. Definitely not a Ms!




:shock: 
what about the guy who started this discussion? 
Team flinn, the ball is now in your court. Most of the issues concerned with the future welfare of this british company have been mentioned, we can do no more than give you our opinions and views on whats good or bad, 
end of they day its down to you how and what you cane i just hope it work out for the better..

alos a flat and curved spokeshave would be nice.. clifton only offer 2 spokes shaves overall where as verities as 20x that and even LN pulled a few copied designs out the bag. "this sums up clifton with respect" (hammer) 

all the best
TT


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## bridger

Pardon my cynicism. I really do want to see clifton prosper and improve. My observation is that when a small quality focused company is taken over by a larger company the culture of the small company is lost. In the worst case it is called vulture capitalism, where the small company is disected and every possible asset is extracted. I don't think Flynn is up to such antics at all, but I do fear that in the end the accountants and "value engineers" will steer clifton off track. I hope I'm wrong. Case in point: the color change. The new owners as their first move change the signature brand identifier, with it's strong connection to it's Britishness from green to grey. The rationale given- to reduce the gloss of the finish, thus reduce the prominence of practically nonexistant lumpiness in the castings. Since the glossiness of the paint could easily enough have been addressed without changing the color, or for that matter simply address the casting smoothness directly, such a move clearly exceeds the stated objective, and IMO damages the brand identity. It may be that Flynn has a plan and a direction for clifton that strengthens clifton both as a market identity and as a working group of talented, dedicated living people. There seems to be room in the market for something like clifton, competitive as the premium tool business is. Anyhow, I wish clifton well, and hope the new management doesn't muck it up too badly.


----------



## iNewbie

Owl":5j9rfpd4 said:


> iNewbie":5j9rfpd4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Owl":5j9rfpd4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A plane is simply a tool to do a particular job, if it does the job it was made for then *what does it matter what colour the manufacturer paints it.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a question for the new owner(s)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Newbie, it isn't the new owners that raised the colour issue so why would you think I was addressing them ?
> All good equipment made in Britain ( as opposed to the mass of foreign rubbish ) should be supported irrespective of whatever colour it is.
> 
> Brian
Click to expand...


Its* i*Newbie, Brain -- see what I did there.  

If the colour doesn't matter they can leave well alone, no? 

Its a great colour and it stands out from anyone elses product. Its _immediately_ identifiable. It is, Clifton. if it ain't broke -- just lumpy...-- don't fix it!


----------



## PAC1

bridger":2tzxf3hb said:


> Pardon my cynicism. I really do want to see clifton prosper and improve. My observation is that when a small quality focused company is taken over by a larger company the culture of the small company is lost. In the worst case it is called vulture capitalism, where the small company is disected and every possible asset is extracted. I don't think Flynn is up to such antics at all, but I do fear that in the end the accountants and "value engineers" will steer clifton off track. I hope I'm wrong. Case in point: the color change. The new owners as their first move change the signature brand identifier, with it's strong connection to it's Britishness from green to grey. The rationale given- to reduce the gloss of the finish, thus reduce the prominence of practically nonexistant lumpiness in the castings. Since the glossiness of the paint could easily enough have been addressed without changing the color, or for that matter simply address the casting smoothness directly, such a move clearly exceeds the stated objective, and IMO damages the brand identity. It may be that Flynn has a plan and a direction for clifton that strengthens clifton both as a market identity and as a working group of talented, dedicated living people. There seems to be room in the market for something like clifton, competitive as the premium tool business is. Anyhow, I wish clifton well, and hope the new management doesn't muck it up too badly.



Interesting. if you read their website you will quickly realise that you have nothing to fear.


----------



## paulm

Seems to me that the paint thing has people falling almost exclusively into two camps, those that don't care as long as the tools do the job in hand, and those that do care and with some passion (sensible or logical or not !). 

There seems a marked lack of those that dislike the green paint to the extent that it puts them off buying products they would otherwise purchase.

If that is the case then what is achieved by a colour change except to alienate the not insignificant proportion of the market that think the green coloration is integral to the character of the brand ?

A change is not going to attract those who only care about functionality, they will already buy or not buy based on quality and price point rather than aesthetics and brand characteristics, so what does a change actually accomplish in a positive sense ?

If I could see sense in the change then I would get over my dissapointment at the dilution/tinkering with a fundamental brand characteristic, but I have not heard anything sensible in support of the change and it does sadly seem to me like misguided and unnecessary tinkering that adds nothing.

Cheers, Paul


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## bridger

here's an example from the power tools market: when the brand now called dewalt was being created, it was a project of a bunch of financial types. they took the name of a company that had been through the vulture capital wringer, dewalt. dewalt had been a single line (mostly) manufacturer of radial arm saws, with a strong reputation for quality. the name brand was simply another asset to be liquidated, and as it had a good reputation, it had cash value. so under this brand, they began a program of rebadging the products of other small companies that they were able to consume. at first they started with quality products, the industrial line of black and decker, elu, others. dewalt made nothing new of their own. as the market penetration of the new dewalt brand increased, both through the reputations for these quality products and through the elimination of the competition from the brands that had actually developed those tools, they began the process of cutting costs and production has largely been sent to china. the same corporate overlords have used their dominant market position to do the same with almost all of the leading tool manufacturers- Bosch, Milwaukee, Sioux, Porter cable, all have just become line items on some multinational's balance sheets, with the actual products and the brand identities disassociated and production jobbed out to the lowest bidder.


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## Bod

Forgive me, but does T Flinn LTD. have a company colour? (JCB = yellow, Fire engines = red, Eddie Stobart = green/white etc)
This could be an opportunity, to create a visual link across all their products, paint colour, printing inks, packaging, perhaps as all ready suggested work clothing range.

Food for thought?

Bod


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## Jacob

I can't wait for the cardigan. What about slippers too? And a cocoa mug? I'm so excited!


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## iNewbie

Slippers with a walnut knob on the toe-caps is my thinking. Graphite in colour, mind...


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## Cheshirechappie

bridger":127vkgfa said:


> here's an example from the power tools market: when the brand now called dewalt was being created, it was a project of a bunch of financial types. they took the name of a company that had been through the vulture capital wringer, dewalt. dewalt had been a single line (mostly) manufacturer of radial arm saws, with a strong reputation for quality. the name brand was simply another asset to be liquidated, and as it had a good reputation, it had cash value. so under this brand, they began a program of rebadging the products of other small companies that they were able to consume. at first they started with quality products, the industrial line of black and decker, elu, others. dewalt made nothing new of their own. as the market penetration of the new dewalt brand increased, both through the reputations for these quality products and through the elimination of the competition from the brands that had actually developed those tools, they began the process of cutting costs and production has largely been sent to china. the same corporate overlords have used their dominant market position to do the same with almost all of the leading tool manufacturers- Bosch, Milwaukee, Sioux, Porter cable, all have just become line items on some multinational's balance sheets, with the actual products and the brand identities disassociated and production jobbed out to the lowest bidder.



All you say may well be true, but it's rather like discussing the fortunes of Morgan Cars by comparing them to Ford and General Motors. I rather doubt that the combined staff of Thomas Flinn and Clifton number more than about ten; I doubt their combined turnover would be of the slightest interest to anybody in the venture capital market. Flinn are a small family-owned and run firm, taking on a small subsidiary of a small company. As for offshoring to China, Flinn haven't, and have shown considerable commitment to making things in Sheffield. I think your fears are misplaced.


----------



## NickWelford

iNewbie":11n2nzaf said:


> Slippers with a walnut knob on the toe-caps is my thinking. Graphite in colour, mind...



I'd rather have green ones.......


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## iNewbie

No green I'm afraid. The Hulk has it Trade Marked. Gets a bit shirty about it...


----------



## Peter Sefton

Cheshirechappie":7z1iihou said:


> bridger":7z1iihou said:
> 
> 
> 
> here's an example from the power tools market: when the brand now called dewalt was being created, it was a project of a bunch of financial types. they took the name of a company that had been through the vulture capital wringer, dewalt. dewalt had been a single line (mostly) manufacturer of radial arm saws, with a strong reputation for quality. the name brand was simply another asset to be liquidated, and as it had a good reputation, it had cash value. so under this brand, they began a program of rebadging the products of other small companies that they were able to consume. at first they started with quality products, the industrial line of black and decker, elu, others. dewalt made nothing new of their own. as the market penetration of the new dewalt brand increased, both through the reputations for these quality products and through the elimination of the competition from the brands that had actually developed those tools, they began the process of cutting costs and production has largely been sent to china. the same corporate overlords have used their dominant market position to do the same with almost all of the leading tool manufacturers- Bosch, Milwaukee, Sioux, Porter cable, all have just become line items on some multinational's balance sheets, with the actual products and the brand identities disassociated and production jobbed out to the lowest bidder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All you say may well be true, but it's rather like discussing the fortunes of Morgan Cars by comparing them to Ford and General Motors. I rather doubt that the combined staff of Thomas Flinn and Clifton number more than about ten; I doubt their combined turnover would be of the slightest interest to anybody in the venture capital market. Flinn are a small family-owned and run firm, taking on a small subsidiary of a small company. As for offshoring to China, Flinn haven't, and have shown considerable commitment to making things in Sheffield. I think your fears are misplaced.
Click to expand...


Cheshirechappie - you have summed up Thomas Flinn very well; their commitment to Sheffield and British engineering is now in its third generation of hand making saws. This is a small family owned and run business who are passionate about what they do and the traditions of the tool makers of Sheffield. The family members are on the shop floor making saws.
I was amazed when I visited their workshops - it is about the same size as mine; a small craft workshop. Only after my visit did I fully understand and appreciate how similar our crafts are - we are just using different materials.

Your analogy with my local Morgan cars is interesting and reminds me of the infamous TV programme with the trouble shooter, Sir Harvey Jones, telling them how they were getting it all wrong. Morgan have stayed true to their beliefs and principles and are committed to hand producing cars and whist the rest of the market has out sourced, grown, laid off staff and become bland. Morgan are doing very well indeed and have more than survived with a very loyal and committed workforce and an order book where the waiting list for a new Morgan is quite a few years. There are only a few miles away in Malvern and the current MD is an old school mate of mine who joined them straight from school at 16 sweeping the floors and worked his way up through the business.

I feel Flinn are very similar they have a very committed team of staff and suppliers who understand and support their efforts to keep and improve the quality of their range of products. It has been suggested that they roll out and get more retailers. This may prove counter productive if these retailers do not and can not convey the the quality and benefits of the Clifton range. Keeping it tight with just a hand full of suppliers is how LN have kept their air of exclusivity which has kept demand at a constant level and proved a very sound marketing strategy.

We don't need to be shown how to make great tools we already do that, it's getting this across to the general public after LN and LV took the market by the horns when the English makers were caught napping 30 years ago. They are now awake and ready for business supplying the very best tools available!


----------



## Phil Pascoe

You could argue of course that Morgan have survived because of collectors. No one in their right mind would buy one for everyday use when they could get something as good or better for a fraction of the price.


----------



## bugbear

phil.p":kqhrd3wd said:


> You could argue of course that Morgan have survived because of collectors. No one in their right mind would buy one for everyday use when they could get something as good or better for a fraction of the price.



I would argue that Morgan have survived because they have customers who want to buy their products at the prices asked.  

BugBear


----------



## Eric The Viking

And there was me, thinking Morgans looked their absolute best in British Racing [ducks and runs...]


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## Tony Zaffuto

All in all, I wish Thomas Flinn & Company all the best and hope Clifton works out well for them. As mentioned much earlier in this threaed, my Clifton #3 is one of my favorite planes and I'll forgive Flinn for the color change! As far as Flinn the sawmaker, I believe their saws are some of the best bargains on the market today. The Pax 14" sash saw (rip) I purchased close to a year ago has become a favorite of mine, performing rips and cross-cuts equally well. The price I paid for the saw (around $110 US, with walnut handle) makes it a true bargain, particularly in comparison to the US boutique makers, with the Pax equal or superior to any task the others perform.

Our craft needs multiple, stable suppliers and competition is healthy, giving us consumers choices as well as competitive pricing.


----------



## iNewbie

Everyone wishes the Flinn company well -- and a hefty Cast Iron clip round-the-ear for whoever suggested changing their Heritage colour! 

[Alan Sugar] _You're Fired _ [/Alan Sugar] :mrgreen:


----------



## JimB

I think that it would be a good publicity idea given all the argument to have a sale at half price especially for those who live in Victoria, Australia. 8)


----------



## Vann

PAC1":268rn05p said:


> ...you have the bench plane market covered but there is a need for a british block plane and more. I know that requires investment and time to develop but it needs to happen.


The development appears to have been done...





...in green :mrgreen: 

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Fromey

Don't forget, the no. 62 and the no. 9 are also block planes.


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## MIGNAL

My most used block plane is the small apron/102, doubt that applies to the general woodworking population. Such a nice size for one handed use though.


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## jimi43

Vann":38ecrx4c said:


> PAC1":38ecrx4c said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...you have the bench plane market covered but there is a need for a british block plane and more. I know that requires investment and time to develop but it needs to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> The development appears to have been done...
> 
> ...in green :mrgreen:
> 
> Cheers, Vann.
Click to expand...


I reckon that's been Photoshopped! 

The iron stamps are all straight! :mrgreen: :wink: 

Jimi


----------



## iNewbie

Look at how those shavings accent that Green paint. Soon we'll be saying: "they don't make 'em like they used to".

Oh wait...


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## Scouse

Just as a post script, the impressions of colour to influential people in target markets...

https://twitter.com/RudeMechanic/status ... 4780928000


----------



## jimi43

Scouse":1e170rrf said:


> Just as a post script, the impressions of colour to influential people in target markets...
> 
> https://twitter.com/RudeMechanic/status ... 4780928000



Hey Scouse mate! How are you...you reprobate!?

Given that endorsement of changing colour to graphite I now KNOW it's a crazy idea! :mrgreen: 

Jimi


----------



## iNewbie

Scouse":uy266h4d said:


> Just as a post script, the impressions of colour to influential people in target markets...
> 
> https://twitter.com/RudeMechanic/status ... 4780928000



With a name like _Schwarz_ he's bound to be biased. 


He's blackballed, now... :mrgreen:


----------



## Peter Sefton

Peter Sefton":38duf16b said:


> One early poor review came out years ago and people hang onto every word - the perpetuation of this is ridiculous. I believe the review may have been removed now or rewritten but I have not seen it.




The new input from across the pond maybe part of the change of mind I was referring to above, lets hope this is part of a more level playing field...


----------



## richarddownunder

Just came across this thread. I'm keen to buy a Clifton 51/2 and already own a couple of their planes. I disagree somewhat with the comment here though. When I make something, I think I do my best to make it as precisely as I can. I rarely succeed in doing a job as well as I'd like so maybe that is what you mean by an obsessive disorder, but it ensures I try to do better next time. I realise in this case the subject of debate its only a stamp, but to my eye it reflects the care that has gone into manufacture, whether or not it is really a true reflection. I love my Clifton planes, even the stay set cap irons, and mine have nicely centred stamps and look a treat. Each time I use them, I try to do work that justifies their use. Just because its hand-made doesn't mean it has to be wonky or badly finished - that would be a bit insulting to all the craftsman who strive for perfection and would justify the rubbish that some other folk put out (IMHO, of course).



MIGNAL":99scxmxy said:


> Sad really. It's obvious that some folk have been so conditioned by industrial production that even a makers mark has to be subjected to obsessive disorders. Even sadder when it's on a woodworkers hand tool forum.
> It's a mark, a stamp. a signature. What on earth has that got to do with the quality of the rest of the Plane? If you can't discern that it has zero bearing on the quality of the Plane then perhaps you need to take up a new hobby or profession.
> I suggest stacking shelves. But make sure you take your spirit level and that all the 'Heinz' are pointing in the exact same direction.


----------



## Tony Zaffuto

Peter Sefton":1ofwq5ir said:


> Peter Sefton":1ofwq5ir said:
> 
> 
> 
> One early poor review came out years ago and people hang onto every word - the perpetuation of this is ridiculous. I believe the review may have been removed now or rewritten but I have not seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new input from across the pond maybe part of the change of mind I was referring to above, lets hope this is part of a more level playing field...
Click to expand...



What is comical about U.S. forums is how so many have to follow/imitate the crowd, and also the number of bloggers/posters that are self pro-claimed experts, probably developing their skills as they tell others how to work. Through "X" number of years, if you use your tools instead of talking about them, then you gain some skills.

I remember when Clifton was bashed over here and being somewhat of a contrarian, since some catalog houses were dropping the brand, I was able to pick up my Clifton #3 dirt cheap. There was not a damn thing wrong with the plane and it remains to this day one of my favorite planes bought new.


----------



## yetihunting

iNewbie":3hfq6c8j said:


> yetihunting":3hfq6c8j said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long time listener, first time caller.
> 
> I liked the old look, I like the new look!
> "Graphite", so depending on lighting, it looks
> either somewhat bare iron or somewhat black, right?
> Those times I tried fiddling with old Stanleys, the tar
> was the first thing to go. And my pair of czech record clone vises?
> They're about to get stripped just as well.
> 
> Here's a one guy in the states that drools over Clifton planes.
> Our dollar is weak against the pound, and shipping is a week
> in pounds across a pond.
> In 2014, the Clifton lineup is a little to a lot more expensive than
> Lie-Nielsen, which, in turn, is a little to a lot more than Veritas.
> So, like many North Americans, I look and don't touch.
> Since everyone decided to chime in with opinions, I'll throw
> my bid in for finding a way to compete out here, price-wise, while staying profitable.
> It can't be easy, the competition only sells direct (no distributor and virtually no retailers) on my continent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A #3 is cheaper (here) in the usa than in the uk - i've not compared the others:
> 
> The Best Things
Click to expand...



That's cheating, the The Best Things sells Clifton planes _way_ cheaper than everybody else does/did. 
One of my favourite virtual robot shops, btw.

So, I just caught up with the ten-pages that came about since I last visited and I notice that no one has suggested that the Fiery Phoenix Clifton ought to re-introduce the old rectangular Preston router plane.

The Fiery Phoenix Clifton ought to re-introduce the old rectangular Preston router plane.


----------



## yetihunting

Tony Zaffuto":1t0qks00 said:


> Peter Sefton":1t0qks00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Sefton":1t0qks00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One early poor review came out years ago and people hang onto every word - the perpetuation of this is ridiculous. I believe the review may have been removed now or rewritten but I have not seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new input from across the pond maybe part of the change of mind I was referring to above, lets hope this is part of a more level playing field...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What is comical about U.S. forums is how so many have to follow/imitate the crowd, and also the number of bloggers/posters that are self pro-claimed experts, probably developing their skills as they tell others how to work. Through "X" number of years, if you use your tools instead of talking about them, then you gain some skills.
> 
> I remember when Clifton was bashed over here and being somewhat of a contrarian, since some catalog houses were dropping the brand, I was able to pick up my Clifton #3 dirt cheap. There was not a damn thing wrong with the plane and it remains to this day one of my favorite planes bought new.
Click to expand...



100%


May I add?:

"According to such and such issue of Fine Woodworking / Popular Woodworking of such and such month and such and such year......."

And may I exaggerate?:

"Kirschen are no good, you should buy the Narex."


----------



## Vann

Interesting. I just did a price check on a Clifton No.5½ (for another thread). I don't see retailers shouting from the rooftops about the about the new colour scheme, nor the new look iron. Maybe they too have reservations...?

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## Peter Sefton

Vann":154ik12f said:


> Interesting. I just did a price check on a Clifton No.5½ (for another thread). I don't see retailers shouting from the rooftops about the about the new colour scheme, nor the new look iron. Maybe they too have reservations...?
> 
> Cheers, Vann.


 
Or old stock Vann

Cheers Peter


----------

