# How to benefit from smart meters?



## Just4Fun (24 Nov 2021)

We have just had new smart meters fitted. The "old" meters now removed had not been there more than a few years, and they were already capable of remote meter readings. I'm not sure how the new neters are better.

One of the meters is in a small "cottage" we have 150 m from the main house, down by the lake. We have never used the cottage and the old meter had never registered as much as 1 kWh. So fitting that was a complete waste.

Anyway, looking around on the internet I found some people are connecting these meters to their home computer network and getting their real-time electricity usage data to use it in some sort of monitoring/control systems. It sounds geeky enough that I might find it interesting to write software for that, but I am struggling to think what the benefit might be. Any suggestions? We are not on any variable rate tariff or anything like that, so that is one possibility that does not currently (pardon the pun) apply to us, and beyond that I am stuck for ideas.


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## Alpha-Dave (24 Nov 2021)

I don’t have a smart meter as the downsides seem worse than the upsides, at least for the first few generations; my utility company sent literature that proudly said that 80% of their customers were happy with their smart meter. That meant that 20% were not. That seems crazy to me, this is something you have forever, not a restaurant that you can choose a different one.

Anyway, the best use-case is that there are many things in your house that you think you know the power consumption of due to ratings, specs etc. that might not be accurate or might have changed over time. The best example of this is my in-laws replaced their 20 year old chest freezer with a new one, and knocked ~1/3 off their electricity bill! So there is a use-case for smart meters, but it’s not worth it for most people.


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## Ollie78 (24 Nov 2021)

Sounds like a fun diversion and it might be interesting to track your precise usage.

Other than that, there is no benefit to the customer that I can see.
My theory is that they want smart meters everywhere to precisely monitor usage in order to try and get better deals on wholesale gas and electricity to maximise profit.

Ollie


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## Cabinetman (24 Nov 2021)

I must’ve told them 20 times that I don’t want one. I just cannot imagine life being so boring that I would take the time to look at it.
And the insult is that they use your electricity that you’ve paid for to send back all the signals,


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## eribaMotters (24 Nov 2021)

Smart meters do not mean you use less energy, it's just that they [should] allow you to monitor how you are using it and make adjustments if you can or want to. 
The present problem is whilst the readings the meters to the supplier is correct, the same information they send to your small room display cannot be used as the software does not match up and the resultant costs you see are incorrect. A fix has been in development for over a year on this but I believe new meters are going to be needed. ll this is according to EDF my supplier.

Colin


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## RichardG (24 Nov 2021)

Apart from giving you an insight into how you are using your electricity and what your background usage is, they don't offer much really for a normal household. However, they are a stepping stone for the future. Firstly they can monitor how much electricity you are exporting and secondly they can measure your energy use and bill you at 30 minute intervals. A few innovative companies, e.g. Octopus Energy, offer an agile tariff which changes the price you pay for electricity every 30 minutes, so at say 5.30pm you may be paying 40p kWh whilst at 2am you may be paying 2p kWh. Of course at the moment you think so what, well if you have solar and or a rechargeable battery you can shift your energy usage and significantly reduce your costs. At the moment this technology is relatively expensive but in 5 years time it will start becoming more common.

I've taken the plunge and will soon have 8kW of solar panels and a 13.5kW battery, this will allow be to operate mostly off grid for 8 months of the year and run the house on 5p per kWh the rest if the year. I'll be able to sell the surplus solar energy during the summer back to the grid which will pay for winter uagage plus a small profit. Of course the figures will change and every household is different. It is difficult to say how much you'll save and how long it will take to repay as you need to do the calculations for your household. You also have to factor in the peace of mind of being complete immune to power cuts.


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## Sachakins (24 Nov 2021)

I had both gAs and electric "smart" meters installed about 30 months back. They are SMET2 meters so should have been fine. I opted for them as got great tariff deal.

Nothing but trouble. In house display replaced three times, still couldn't get them to read correctly. To this day it cannot display gas usage.

Had so many problems with Shell who installed them losing communication with the readings. Was constantly asked to supply online readings, tel readings etc, bills all over the place.

Switched suppliers twice since, still can't get gas reading on in house display. Actually given up on it ever been right, it now languishing at the back of the junk drawer.

Smart meters purely there for benefit of companies, to get multiple readings. Smart meters absolutely of no use or benefit to the user.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Nov 2021)

eribaMotters said:


> Smart meters do not mean you use less energy, it's just that they [should] allow you to monitor how you are using it and make adjustments if you can or want to.



I complained to the ASA about the smart meter adverts being misleading, I was told that they wouldn't reply to complaints individually as they had had so many. They have now at least amended the ads to say action by user required (or something like that).


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## okeydokey (24 Nov 2021)

I said no to smart meters countless times then (British Gas?) came up with an idea they pay me £50 to have smart meters installed - ok so I took the money and they installed a smart electric meter but couldn't do the gas meter as they couldn't "see" each other/connect for reading. So I have small gadget that if I bother to charge shows me how much electric I am using or have used - they still have to read the meters (or I do it for them) until they install another Mark 2? 3? meter and thats not happening soon as they have targets to install new not come back to finish the job. As previous poster said no point at all for the consumer totally contrary to the misleading adverts


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Nov 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> My theory is that they want smart meters everywhere to precisely monitor usage in order to try and get better deals on wholesale gas and electricity to maximise profit.



I suspect the ultimate aim is infinitely variable charging (like Octopus Agile now). The Country could do without a major power station if they could get rid of the breakfast time and teatime spikes in usage.


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## RichardG (24 Nov 2021)

eribaMotters said:


> Smart meters do not mean you use less energy, it's just that they [should] allow you to monitor how you are using it and make adjustments if you can or want to.
> The present problem is whilst the readings the meters to the supplier is correct, the same information they send to your small room display cannot be used as the software does not match up and the resultant costs you see are incorrect. A fix has been in development for over a year on this but I believe new meters are going to be needed. ll this is according to EDF my supplier.
> 
> Colin



That's more down to your energy supplier than the smart meter. I'm with Octopus and after contacting support the correct tariff / cost is downloaded to the meter, took less than 2 hours for me. The issue is that many suppliers don't download the updated tariff when it changes, so the meter and hence the IHD (in home display) is out of date. However, the IHD is a bit of a novelty really, the benefit comes from looking at your history of usage with a 30 minute granularity, you can do this via the IHD but it's much more useful on a PC/iPad. You may well have one of the first generation meters which are problematic, the newer smets2 meters are OK. From my experience the only Energy supplier who had got their head around the technology is Octopus.

With the data you can then do lots of what ifs and compare the various tariffs to see if they work for you. This includes economy 7 type tariffs, Electric Vehicle tariff, Agile tariffs etc.

If you're really adventurous you can link the real time usage with your home. So you can control the larger energy guzzlers. For most the Immersion heater is the the only one worth controlling (unless you have a battery and an electric car). In my case if the solar is exceeding the house usage, exporting the maximum I'm allowed to the grid, battery is charging then any surplus gets dumped into the hot water tank. Eventually that will go into the car if it's at home.


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## RichardG (24 Nov 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> We have just had new smart meters fitted. The "old" meters now removed had not been there more than a few years, and they were already capable of remote meter readings. I'm not sure how the new neters are better.
> 
> One of the meters is in a small "cottage" we have 150 m from the main house, down by the lake. We have never used the cottage and the old meter had never registered as much as 1 kWh. So fitting that was a complete waste.
> 
> Anyway, looking around on the internet I found some people are connecting these meters to their home computer network and getting their real-time electricity usage data to use it in some sort of monitoring/control systems. It sounds geeky enough that I might find it interesting to write software for that, but I am struggling to think what the benefit might be. Any suggestions? We are not on any variable rate tariff or anything like that, so that is one possibility that does not currently (pardon the pun) apply to us, and beyond that I am stuck for ideas.



Sign up with Octopus if you really want to play, they have an API....


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## Fitzroy (24 Nov 2021)

Interesting thread. I too have resisted the push for one of these devices, it seems there is lots of negative experience bubbling up which aligns with my expectation. I can see that if options like the Octopus Agile were more common then with a meter it would enable me to save money by adjusting my usage pattern (ie e7 on steroids). I doubt however I would play the game as I've too many other things to be dealing with. Ideally the system is linked to a smart home /system which would automatically utilise your periodic appliances at the best time, or charge a house battery with cheap electricity to use later. Plenty of promise but still seems far enough away that I'll resist for a while longer yet.


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## pe2dave (24 Nov 2021)

eribaMotters said:


> ...
> The present problem is whilst the readings the meters to the supplier is correct, the same information they send to your small room display cannot be used as the software does not match up and the resultant costs you see are incorrect. A fix has been in development for over a year on this but I believe new meters are going to be needed. ll this is according to EDF my supplier.
> 
> Colin



Is this the 'second generation' meters that have been in the offing for ages? Or yet another revision?


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Nov 2021)

RichardG said:


> Sign up with Octopus if you really want to play, they have an API....


I don't know that they supply Finland.


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## Just4Fun (24 Nov 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I don't know that they supply Finland.


Even my longest extension lead might struggle to reach from the UK 
It would of course be nice to have an API to work against. I don't yet know if there is such a thing here but it is no great problem if not. The info I have found on the net suggests having to parse some regularly posted data packets, which should be easy enough. I have done lots of that sort of thing for work.

I am aware that not everyone wants a smart meter. I don't have any opinion about that and I don't even know if we had a choice about getting them. Having got them though I am curious if I can do anything with them.

I have in the past created Arduino-based controllers to switch on devices such as fridge & freezer based on the current wholesale electricity price. That was when we were on a tariff that marked up the wholesale price by a %age. Now we are on a fixed-rate tariff so that is not needed. It probably didn't repay the time I put into developing it anyway, it was just an interesting project.


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## D_W (24 Nov 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I suspect the ultimate aim is infinitely variable charging (like Octopus Agile now). The Country could do without a major power station if they could get rid of the breakfast time and teatime spikes in usage.



The above is the aim, to charge exorbitant peak rates later and modify behavior. We have flat rates and smart meters now, no option to not get them. What I don't like us they have no visual indication of current use whereas the old analog meter had a large spinning disc that was easy to discern.

The second purpose is to get use patterns from individuals as well as groups and use those for planning. i get constant emails about unusual use patterns because my wife runs the oven and dryer at night at the same time.


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## Spectric (24 Nov 2021)

eribaMotters said:


> A fix has been in development for over a year on this but I believe new meters are going to be needed.


Don't hold your breath, look what a mess track and trace has been and I believe this is the result of skills shortages across most industries, back in the nineties we had a very capable software development sector but like everything else it was cheaper elsewhere so we waved it goodbye.

The one big issue we always end up with is compatability, we just cannot readily adopt a standard so that all meters use the same protocols, we are seeing it in the EV charging sector where there are multiple systems and connectors and look back in history and you can find many examples. 

Smart meters are like smart phones, they are not smart in the absolute sense but in relation to there owners.


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## flying haggis (24 Nov 2021)

how to benefit from smart meters? easy, sell them to the electric companies........


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## hog&amp;bodge (24 Nov 2021)

Nope not having one. just more junk to be disposed of, you have first generation, now second generation
& soon to come third generation.
Do not think people will be taking them to their local tip to be recycled.
Why do we need to be told to turn lights of we are not using. 
Have yet to have my mind changed over smart meters.


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## Spectric (24 Nov 2021)

As has been said the only people who will benefit are the suppliers, and there hype that they can save you energy is misleading because it requires you to do something based on what energy the silly meter is saying you are using. The only way to save or use less energy is by reducing your load, we all know that and do not need some bit of technology to tell us and I doubt many will sit in the dark just to reduce energy usage. The only way a smart meter will work is if the tarrifs are set to multiple bands based on what usage a given dwelling/occupation is deemed average and then charge less if usage lower and steadily increase it as you exceed and then a true smart meter would keep you informed, so light users gain and the ones who don't bother pay more.


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## MARK.B. (24 Nov 2021)

I have a Wife ,do I realy need a smart meter to tell me to switch off the light


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## Fitzroy (24 Nov 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> I have a Wife ,do I realy need a smart meter to tell me to switch off the light


That's not a wife thing, that's a partner thing. I'm the one in my household who does the lights off nagging. My children think they are called '_xxx go turn your light off_'


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## D_W (24 Nov 2021)

Fitzroy said:


> That's not a wife thing, that's a partner thing. I'm the one in my household who does the lights off nagging. My children think they are called '_xxx go turn your light off_'



Ditto. walk back the hall -three bedroom lights are on. Go to the kitchen, three different sets of lights are on. Nobody is in either for hours. The mrs. leaves to go run errands, they all stay on. I wander the house turning lights off and then she returns home and says "stop turning all of the lights off!!", but she never turns them all back on.


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## Just4Fun (24 Nov 2021)

Oh ... I have learned something. I had thought I was the only person in the world who knew how to turn light switches in the opposite direction so that the lights go off. Everyone I know only seems to be capable of turning lights on, not off.


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## D_W (24 Nov 2021)

Separately, here in the states where the states regular utilities, we all had the option of getting the smart meter. Then a year or two later, they were installed automatically and you could file in writing to not have yours done, but it wasn't convenient, and you figure you can fight that stuff but it's not worth it. I thought they'd switch to mandatory tiered rates by now, but they haven't due to state capitol opposition (the conservative nature there generally comes in to protect seniors who fail to navigate that kind of stuff as well).

We did get the ability to switch to tiered rates as an option and not mandatory, but when I reviewed the schedule of rates, it would've been almost impossible to save money unless you did all of your cooking and laundry late at night (and we have a heat pump/split for part of the house, so I guess you'd have to run the A/C at night, too). The utilities here are private companies, but state regulated and can't just do whatever they want, so their business offerings rarely make sense. they may be just laying the groudwork for tiered rates by getting the rates on the books. 

A device to plug into pretty much everything and that will give specific consumption over a time duration is about $25 here.


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## clogs (24 Nov 2021)

easy......the next question on the forum below this is the JOKE THREAD........they should go there....


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## toolsntat (24 Nov 2021)

Eon my substituted supplier say I can go on a cheaper rate if I have a smart meter. 

*Anti-bribery policy*
It is illegal to offer, promise, give, request, agree, receive or accept bribes 

Might have to give em a bell and agree an out of court settlement ££££ 

Cheers Andy


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## ian33a (25 Nov 2021)

Several energy companies tried to get us to install them (we tended to switch suppliers each year back in those days) but when we mentioned that we had solar panels they suddenly were less interested stating that their meters were not solar compatible. "smart" .... mmm .... more like "dumb".

We still don't have one and I don't miss it.

Many years ago I bought an instantaneous energy indicator. It was a simple current clamp attached to the incoming live. It was never very accurate and totally hopeless once we installed solar because it didn't sense the voltage potential or measure solar export so was never a true measure of power. The thing was though, it was quite big and very obvious and it was clear when, for example, I'd accidentally left the coffee machine turned on. That, to me, was far better than something which integrated over a long period and gave a number that was quite difficult to read or learn from.

In more recent years, once we got solar, I built a load of microcontroller based modules and wrote the code to properly measure instantaneous load, be it import or export. Nice big LED's told me, at a glance, if we were importing or exporting and I calibrated the whole thing to within a couple percent of the actual load that the house was taking (or contributing to the grid). I also built an immersion heater bypass so that surplus solar power could be dumped to the immersion heater, cycle by cycle while still receiving money for the export (yes, it is legal). The system just sits there, the instantaneous import or export being displayed every ten seconds or so and I get hot water when the sun shines.

Smart meters don't save money for most people. It's a way for companies to grab more analytical information about us and to consign house to house meter readers to the dole queue. If you want to know how much an appliance is using, plug it into a something like this instead

Power Meter Dual Tariffs with Backup Battery, Maxcio 13A Electricity Usage Monitor UK Plug for Costs Voltage Amps Watt KWH, Large LCD Display Watt Volt Amp Analyzer for Home Appliances, No Backlight : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools 

Where a visual indicator does help is to change habits. It's the big resistive heaters which most consume power and if something can tell you that you left one of these on, that's a smart enough use of technology to save most consumers some money, if they can be bothered.


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## The Chiller (25 Nov 2021)

I know what is using my electricity I don't need a smart metre to tell me.


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## Sandyn (25 Nov 2021)

There's a huge amount of electricity theft. Smart meters makes it easier for the suppliers to find where it's going. I'm sure suppliers would prefer to be able to collect payments daily if they could!! Smart meters would allow them to do that.
We don't have one. I really can't see any benefit of having one. I just use the electricity I need, so not much savings to be had. Perhaps if the meter could send me CSV files, showing usage at 1 second intervals for 24 hours. I would be interested for a day. 
I think there should be a national rate for all power. It comes from a national grid. Having all these energy providers with umpteen different plans, it means that some people get lower rates, but it's always at the expense of someone else, often the elderly or the less well off.

An interesting site to see the national grid live status.


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## AlanY (25 Nov 2021)

D_W said:


> The above is the aim, to charge exorbitant peak rates later and modify behavior. We have flat rates and smart meters now, no option to not get them. What I don't like us they have no visual indication of current use whereas the old analog meter had a large spinning disc that was easy to discern.
> 
> The second purpose is to get use patterns from individuals as well as groups and use those for planning. i get constant emails about unusual use patterns because my wife runs the oven and dryer at night at the same time.



There are a number of objectives from the Smart Meter rollout in the UK:
1. Get rid of the entire Meter Reading workforce.
2. Replace the entire metering asset stock at the cost of the Customer.
3. 'Transform' computer systems and infrastructure at the cost of the Customer
4. Develop consumption records at a granularity that enables Customers to be profiled
5. Develop 'Time-of-use' tariffs
6. Encourage the Customer to think about usage patterns with a view to reducing consumption

I am not a great fan of smart metering or the way in which it has been introduced in the UK. There are no significant benefits to the people who have been forced to pay for it whilst there are for the Supply companies and myriad consultancies that do benefit from it but do not have to pay for it. Also, in the not-too-distant future I suspect the remote disconnection/reconnection facility will be utilised to balance the grid as more reliance is foolishly placed on renewables. When the wind don't blow or the sun don't shine...

I may be feeling grumpy this morning.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2021)

Sandyn said:


> There's a huge amount of electricity theft. Smart meters makes it easier for the suppliers to find where it's going.



The large scale theft is taken off the mains before the meter - the meter would show nothing.

I read the other day that in one of the large Indian States there is estimated to be more electricity stolen than is used in all but eight of the world's largest consuming Countries.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> Also, in the not-too-distant future I suspect the remote disconnection/reconnection facility will be utilised to balance the grid as more reliance is foolishly placed on renewables. When the wind don't blow or the sun don't shine...



Nah ......... don't worry about it. Sign up to one of the Companies selling 100% renewable electricity - they have means of getting renewable electricity from somewhere else when there's no wind and sun.


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Nah ......... don't worry about it. Sign up to one of the Companies selling 100% renewable electricity - they have means of getting renewable electricity from somewhere else when there's no wind and sun.


Hydro? Tidal? Geothermal? It's also pretty rare there's no wind offshore.

Whilst it's also a bit of a fudge; obviously when you buy energy from a supplier they're not actually tracking bottles of gas and electrons from the source to your home. But, if you're buying "100% renewable" electricity the supplier will be doing deals to purchase sufficient energy from green producers. Over the long term - in theory - the more people that sign up to those details, the more demand for renewables, and the more capital there will be to invest in them.

There's no quick fix, and it's far from perfect - but it's surely better than burning coal and wading through streets of smog?


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## redhunter350 (25 Nov 2021)

Don’t have one even though we are pestered constantly by our suppliers! Really cannot see any befit to us . However I wonder if at some point they will be used to control how much energy you are allowed to use ?? Before your supply is restricted!


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## Stevekane (25 Nov 2021)

I have nothing against smart meters if the elect industry want them, but I think its wrong to dress up their introduction as a green initiative and bill the consumer for them. I understand there have been several surveys into how much consumers actually save and its exactly as you would imagine, a small initial saving followed by a return to normal usage. My feeling is that gas and electric have for most people been so expensive for a very long time that there are few people (apart from children!) who would just leaving lights on or run tumble driers unnecessarily so the savings are not there to be had unless were going to get to the situation where we decide not to have a hot drink or make a bit of toast?
My other worry is that in allowing the smart meter fitter into your home you allow them to carry out gas and elrctric safety checks,,its not unknown for them to finish their tea and biscuits and then slap a condemned notice on your old boiler, some people might be happy with this but its not for me,,try something like problems with smart meter installations on google and read some horror stories,,,
Steve.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2021)

sploo said:


> Hydro? Tidal? Geothermal? It's also pretty rare there's no wind offshore.



In this Country? It's pie in the sky. Some time in the distant future, no doubt.


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## Droogs (25 Nov 2021)

@Phil Pascoe The link below shows interesting figures for Scotland. Basically ~95% of electricity consumption up here is provided by renewables. The only power problems I've had in the last 20 years was when a mouse chewed through the mains lighting ring for the rear half of the flat about a month ago. It's always either windy, sunny or rainny here, sometimes all three at once



https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/statistics/2018/10/quarterly-energy-statistics-bulletins/documents/energy-statistics-summary---june-2021/energy-statistics-summary---june-2021/govscot%3Adocument/Scotland%2BEnergy%2BStats%2BQ1%2B2021.pdf


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> In this Country? It's pie in the sky. Some time in the distant future, no doubt.











Hydroelectricity in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





That's a not insignificant pie.

Tidal is behind right now, but the potential resources are huge.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2021)

Hydroelectricity accounted for 4.2% of electricity generation from renewable sources in the United Kingdom (2018) 

That's not 4.2% of the total. It's pie in the sky.


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Hydroelectricity accounted for 4.2% of electricity generation from renewable sources in the United Kingdom (2018)
> 
> That's not 4.2% of the total. It's pie in the sky.


So... we should just give up and not bother?


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## Spectric (25 Nov 2021)

I know we have a lot of rain but no really big rivers like the Yangtze or Colorado so we are not ideally suited to large scale hydro but should be looking at tidal schemes as we know we get two high and two low tides a day so with that mass of water it could produce a lot of power.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2021)

sploo said:


> So... we should just give up and not bother?


By all means bother - but don't try to pretend it's going to be the answer to any shortages.


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## Titan_uk (25 Nov 2021)

Despite being pestered many times for a smart meter - shell even kindly made an appointment for an install that I never requested, which resulted in me using more fuel to go shopping  I've resisted.

I live alone and turn things on when I need them and off when I don't. I see absolutely no benefit to me and think it will only enable the supplier to charge me more when I make breakfast in the morning before work and again in the evening when I come home at 'peak times', something that won't change my habits even if I had one. 

Tin hat time.. it's all a government conspiracy to encourage us to work shifts to save electricity!!


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> I know we have a lot of rain but no really big rivers like the Yangtze or Colorado so we are not ideally suited to large scale hydro but should be looking at tidal schemes as we know we get two high and two low tides a day so with that mass of water it could produce a lot of power.


Eleven years later this one's gone nowhere -








Cornwall Wave Hub to be sold for offshore wind farm


Wave Hub owner Cornwall Council hopes the deal will lead to more offshore power schemes in the area.



www.bbc.co.uk





I seem to remember talk of the Severn Bore being used but it was kicked into touch I believe because birds and animals lived there.


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> By all means bother - but don't try to pretend it's going to be the answer to any shortages.


Today; no. But it is feasible to get a long way there. Much of the technology exists, and is in use (even if it's a percent of a percent).

The major stumbling block is storage (to buffer energy in "good" hours, to cover the "bad" hours). Again there are solutions, but all have downsides.


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

Titan_uk said:


> Despite being pestered many times for a smart meter - shell even kindly made an appointment for an install that I never requested, which resulted in me using more fuel to go shopping  I've resisted.
> 
> I live alone and turn things on when I need them and off when I don't. I see absolutely no benefit to me and think it will only enable the supplier to charge me more when I make breakfast in the morning before work and again in the evening when I come home at 'peak times', something that won't change my habits even if I had one.
> 
> Tin hat time.. it's all a government conspiracy to encourage us to work shifts to save electricity!!


Between <word for a male chicken followed by "up" that I'm not allowed to use on the forum> and conspiracy; it's usually the chicken.

There isn't really anything shady about smart meters themselves, and the idea of reporting the energy usage (so you don't need to send people out to read meters) is in itself a good idea.

The information shown on the provided displays can be useful in tracking down energy "greedy" devices in a home; but in reality I suspect few people really walk around randomly switching stuff off.

Perhaps the bigger long term benefits can be in real-time processing of energy data, looking at trends, and apps to suggest "green" periods for using power.

I work in this field, so I'm arguably biased towards the positives; but it also means I see enough of the negatives to not have completely rose tinted specs.


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## AlanY (25 Nov 2021)

I remember back in the late 60's when 'off-peak' electricity was pushed for everything from night storage radiators to swimming pool heating. The 'off-peak' period stretched from something like 7pm to 7am with an afternoon period added on. By the early-70's, the suppliers were trying desperately to get people on to a 'white meter' tariff which provided just 8 hours of 'off peak' energy and, by the mid-70's (when I started work in the Electricity industry) it was down to a 7 hour period (Economy 7).

My point being that, as the 'off-peak' periods of supply are identified and people move usage habits to take advantage of those 'cheaper' periods, they rapidly move from being 'off-peak' to being 'peak'. Soon, there will be no such thing as 'off-peak' (if we are not already at that point) and I cannot see the UK ever again having such an excess generating capacity to make for a viable 'off-peak' charging regime. Quite the opposite and I fear that smart meters are really intended as a means of reducing usage (by means of remote disconnect/reconnect) to meet capacity limitations inflicted by this 'Renewables' nonsense. I, for one, will keep my back-up diesel generator.


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## AlanY (25 Nov 2021)

Droogs said:


> @Phil Pascoe The link below shows interesting figures for Scotland. Basically ~95% of electricity consumption up here is provided by renewables. The only power problems I've had in the last 20 years was when a mouse chewed through the mains lighting ring for the rear half of the flat about a month ago. It's always either windy, sunny or rainny here, sometimes all three at once
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/statistics/2018/10/quarterly-energy-statistics-bulletins/documents/energy-statistics-summary---june-2021/energy-statistics-summary---june-2021/govscot%3Adocument/Scotland%2BEnergy%2BStats%2BQ1%2B2021.pdf



That is an interesting statistic. Did your Scottish Government happen to mention what percentage of the Scottish Renewables generation capacity was funded by the green levy paid by all UK energy customers?


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> I remember back in the late 60's when 'off-peak' electricity was pushed for everything from night storage radiators to swimming pool heating. The 'off-peak' period stretched from something like 7pm to 7am with an afternoon period added on. By the early-70's, the suppliers were trying desperately to get people on to a 'white meter' tariff which provided just 8 hours of 'off peak' energy and, by the mid-70's (when I started work in the Electricity industry) it was down to a 7 hour period (Economy 7).
> 
> My point being that, as the 'off-peak' periods of supply are identified and people move usage habits to take advantage of those 'cheaper' periods, they rapidly move from being 'off-peak' to being 'peak'. Soon, there will be no such thing as 'off-peak' (if we are not already at that point) and I cannot see the UK ever again having such an excess generating capacity to make for a viable 'off-peak' charging regime. Quite the opposite and I fear that smart meters are really intended as a means of reducing usage (by means of remote disconnect/reconnect) to meet capacity limitations inflicted by this 'Renewables' nonsense. I, for one, will keep my back-up diesel generator.


"Peak" and "off peak" may end up also being related to renewables. E.g. run your dishwasher today by draining electricity from your EV car's battery (because there's little renewables on the grid right now so the unit cost is high), then recharge your car tomorrow from your solar panels (because the weather forecast is sunny, and based on your diary you don't need the car until late tomorrow)... that sort of thing.

As EV cars get more popular there's obviously also going to be issues with everyone coming home and wanting to recharge - so that'll need managing (with cheaper overnight tariffs to encourage people to charge at off peak times).


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## D_W (25 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> There are a number of objectives from the Smart Meter rollout in the UK:
> 1. Get rid of the entire Meter Reading workforce.
> 2. Replace the entire metering asset stock at the cost of the Customer.
> 3. 'Transform' computer systems and infrastructure at the cost of the Customer
> ...



I think much of that is here, too (The long term aim). Since our utilities are called deregulated, but for practical purposes still can't just do whatever they want in most places, collecting and selling data from use patterns is probably highly profitable (And wouldn't be part of the rate agreement). 

I'd imagine that the electric company can tell what you're using not just by how much current, but how the current is consumed in small instants - e.g., a dryer and an oven don't consume power the same way, but perhaps down further to the device level for certain things that are much more like than ovens and dryers). The interesting thing about many of the power companies here is they're publicly listed (companies with stock on the stock market) and they try other avenues to make money (building infrastructure or trading energy) outside of the retail delivery of power - being able to add anything (collecting and selling data) that isn't part of the state rate agreement is pure profit.


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## Stevekane (25 Nov 2021)

I did read a while ago that it would be more efficient to have smaller power stations but more of them sited locally, I dont recall the reasoning for them being near to the consumer, but they put forward to idea that Rolls Royce who already produce very reliable and effcient small scale nuclear reactors used in submarines etc could provide these. Last week there was a brief report saying that RR had been asked to look into it. Goodness knows what the anti nuclear lobby would think of it but I suspect that nuclear is all of a sudden looking much more attractive with our energy needs and global warming looming.
Steve.


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## AlanY (25 Nov 2021)

sploo said:


> "Peak" and "off peak" may end up also being related to renewables. E.g. run your dishwasher today by draining electricity from your EV car's battery (because there's little renewables on the grid right now so the unit cost is high), then recharge your car tomorrow from your solar panels (because the weather forecast is sunny, and based on your diary you don't need the car until late tomorrow)... that sort of thing.
> 
> As EV cars get more popular there's obviously also going to be issues with everyone coming home and wanting to recharge - so that'll need managing (with cheaper overnight tariffs to encourage people to charge at off peak times).



Sorry, Sploo. I read your reply and burst out laughing. This is pure fantasy.


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## AlanY (25 Nov 2021)

D_W said:


> I think much of that is here, too (The long term aim). Since our utilities are called deregulated, but for practical purposes still can't just do whatever they want in most places, collecting and selling data from use patterns is probably highly profitable (And wouldn't be part of the rate agreement).
> 
> I'd imagine that the electric company can tell what you're using not just by how much current, but how the current is consumed in small instants - e.g., a dryer and an oven don't consume power the same way, but perhaps down further to the device level for certain things that are much more like than ovens and dryers). The interesting thing about many of the power companies here is they're publicly listed (companies with stock on the stock market) and they try other avenues to make money (building infrastructure or trading energy) outside of the retail delivery of power - being able to add anything (collecting and selling data) that isn't part of the state rate agreement is pure profit.



Customer profiling based on half-hourly readings will offer similar opportunities here. too. Not least, of course, for those parties interested in knowing when your house is unoccupied so they can sell that information to people keen to visit and remove all your valuables.

Which is why, when I am forced over to a smart meter (probably when the current meter certification period expires) I will refuse consent for meter readings to be taken any more frequently than monthly.


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## hairy (25 Nov 2021)

Smart meters allow flow both ways, so "they" can discharge your EV battery if you sign up for that I think?


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## D_W (25 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> Customer profiling based on half-hourly readings will offer similar opportunities here. too. Not least, of course, for those parties interested in knowing when your house is unoccupied so they can sell that information to people keen to visit and remove all your valuables.
> 
> Which is why, when I am forced over to a smart meter (probably when the current meter certification period expires) I will refuse consent for meter readings to be taken any more frequently than monthly.



I think it goes even deeper in a commercial sense. When your dryer electricity consumption changes (during the cycle in a way that matches a failing dryer), you could literally be fed ads both from places selling new dryers as well as commercial (probably overpriced) repair chains. 

When smart meters came out here, people started wrapping the antennas or where they thought they were and then there was a bunch of tinfoil hat stuff, but buried in a lot of that is sometimes some kernel of truth. In the case of the maters, the foil wrappers didn't want anyone to know what they were doing in their houses beyond how much power it used. I get their concerns (and a lot of those people are doing nothing interesting, but they get offended easily). The sale from the power companies was the capability of the meter, but eventually there was admission that the meters and consumption patterns will be able to tell what you're doing and what's actually being used (probably down to the brand and maybe even model of the device being used). 

Reminds me of a trailer park boys episode where the boys get an old windstream and grow weed in a trailer while stealing power. Except in that episode, the electric company knows which mains are seeing unusual use but not which trailer (it's a TV show, so obviously they have to make it out like the power company and police have to hover around the neighborhood like dips unable to solve the case). 

At any rate, I'd guess devices have a signature, and the smart meters can probably tell what you're using, when, how and probably even how far it may be from the meter.


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> Sorry, Sploo. I read your reply and burst out laughing. This is pure fantasy.


We're working on stuff like that already.

HCALCS (HAN connected auxiliary load control switch) exist to switch devices such as EV chargers automatically.

There's already live data on the energy mix (e.g. renewable levels) of the grid; e.g. National Grid: Live Status

Weather reporting data API services are widely available.

A huge percentage of the population already use some form of electronic diary / calendar.

All of the basic building blocks already exist. Nothing fantasy about it.


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> Customer profiling based on half-hourly readings will offer similar opportunities here. too. Not least, of course, for those parties interested in knowing when your house is unoccupied so they can sell that information to people keen to visit and remove all your valuables.


That's going full tinfoil hat paranoid.

But hey, I'll pass it along to our marketing team; they might be able to monetise a "find out when to burgle your customers" service...


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

hairy said:


> Smart meters allow flow both ways, so "they" can discharge your EV battery if you sign up for that I think?


Maybe.

Obviously it would require consent in terms of the agreement with the bill payer; likely some favourable tariff for being able to take up to a certain amount of power from your EV car.

A bigger stumbling block might be that a lot of chargers use an AC to DC rectifier (from mains to your battery), but you can't pull DC from the battery and put AC back onto the mains as they don't have an inverter.


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## AlanY (25 Nov 2021)

Ab


sploo said:


> We're working on stuff like that already.
> 
> HCALCS (HAN connected auxiliary load control switch) exist to switch devices such as EV chargers automatically.
> 
> ...



Oh, I know it is being worked on and the technology does exist, but how many people in the City have their own off-road parking space to accommodate an EV parking space? How many people who live in terraced housing have their own off-road parking space? How many people who live in flats... well, I guess you might get the point by now. And then, of those people who do have off-road parking, how many are daft enough to buy an electric car? "hey, Fellahs! I have this great idea to save the Planet". Not.


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> Oh, I know it is being worked on and the technology does exist, but how many people in the City have their own off-road parking space to accommodate an EV parking space? How many people who live in terraced housing have their own off-road parking space? How many people who live in flats... well, I guess you might get the point by now. And then, of those people who do have off-road parking, how many are daft enough to buy an electric car? "hey, Fellahs! I have this great idea to save the Planet". Not.


That's like saying it's fantasy to sell gardening equipment because many people don't have a garden, and the people that do wouldn't be daft enough to buy a spade.


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## AlanY (25 Nov 2021)

sploo said:


> That's like saying it's fantasy to sell gardening equipment because many people don't have a garden, and the people that do wouldn't be daft enough to buy a spade.


Yes, it is really like that.


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## Geoff_S (25 Nov 2021)

Smart meters are just unnecessary technical gadgets to measure the electricity consumption of a lot of unnecessary technical gadgets.


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## sploo (25 Nov 2021)

Geoff_S said:


> Smart meters are just unnecessary technical gadgets to measure the electricity consumption of a lot of unnecessary technical gadgets.


That's probably true. But you wrote that on an unnecessary technical gadget, and I replied on one


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## Terry - Somerset (25 Nov 2021)

There is a positive side to how technology can benefit all of us, improve efficiency, use green energy, reduce costs etc etc. All these things are entirely feasible. 

reduce the cost of meter reading through automation
intelligent use of EV battery storage
time varable tariff to reduce peak demand
ingest forecast weather parameters to optimise storage and consumption
If individuals choose to believe there is a malign intent - remote power control, monitor appliance use, sell data for comercial gain, charge consumers daily etc - they will be difficult to dissuade. 

However I would expect that when the number of non-smart meter properties fall to low levels, a charge will be introduced for manual meter reading in an attempt to get "laggards" to sign up.


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## Spectric (25 Nov 2021)

We are just drowning in technology where so much is "because we can " and the rest is sent to annoy us. If it was not for this huge rise in technology then we would not be having an energy crisis. There was some tv program that showed how much energy is used by the USA servers that host our online data and it was just ridiculous but then look online and see how much outdated garbage is still being stored, they need some cleaners.


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## Ozi (25 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> I remember back in the late 60's when 'off-peak' electricity was pushed for everything from night storage radiators to swimming pool heating. The 'off-peak' period stretched from something like 7pm to 7am with an afternoon period added on. By the early-70's, the suppliers were trying desperately to get people on to a 'white meter' tariff which provided just 8 hours of 'off peak' energy and, by the mid-70's (when I started work in the Electricity industry) it was down to a 7 hour period (Economy 7).
> 
> My point being that, as the 'off-peak' periods of supply are identified and people move usage habits to take advantage of those 'cheaper' periods, they rapidly move from being 'off-peak' to being 'peak'. Soon, there will be no such thing as 'off-peak' (if we are not already at that point) and I cannot see the UK ever again having such an excess generating capacity to make for a viable 'off-peak' charging regime. Quite the opposite and I fear that smart meters are really intended as a means of reducing usage (by means of remote disconnect/reconnect) to meet capacity limitations inflicted by this 'Renewables' nonsense. I, for one, will keep my back-up diesel generator.







UK power generation over the last 28 days. Clearly no fluctuation in demand to smooth out!






Storage, a few years ago it didn't exist now it's approaching 1% of demand. Hydro at 2% people on here are writing off. Solar in the winter nearly as big as coal and coal is high at present even for this time of year. There is massive progress being made. Six years ago coal would have been possibly the biggest contributor, but people think it's all a wast of time if there isn't one single answer that solves all problems, they dis electric cars but would happily run diesel. How long did it take to get reliable electrical supply to almost every home in the country, but non of this is instant so it's all rubbish. Few European countries are doing as well as the UK, but if car manufacturers point out that we need green energy to charge EV cars the reaction is "see it's all lies and worthless". Take a look at London air quality in the 1950s, 1980s and now. Everybody stop being so dam negative and do your bit.


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## Sandyn (25 Nov 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The large scale theft is taken off the mains before the meter - the meter would show nothing.


yes, it would have to be taken before the meter to steal it. It allows the supplier to partition the supply and do a real time check of usage shown on smart meters and compare to measured power. If there is a difference, the theft is happening in that area. Then they can gradually home in on the thief.


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## Billy_wizz (25 Nov 2021)

okeydokey said:


> I said no to smart meters countless times then (British Gas?) came up with an idea they pay me £50 to have smart meters installed - ok so I took the money and they installed a smart electric meter but couldn't do the gas meter as they couldn't "see" each other/connect for reading. So I have small gadget that if I bother to charge shows me how much electric I am using or have used - they still have to read the meters (or I do it for them) until they install another Mark 2? 3? meter and thats not happening soon as they have targets to install new not come back to finish the job. As previous poster said no point at all for the consumer totally contrary to the misleading adverts


Are you not a bit suspicious that they want to pay you to install something that is supposedly for your benefit?


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## John Brown (25 Nov 2021)

Billy_wizz said:


> Are you not a bit suspicious that they want to pay you to install something that is supposedly for your benefit?


I guess you need to weigh the costs against that of meter readers.


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## hunter27 (25 Nov 2021)

I won't be having one until it is mandatory, as far as I can see it is just a token gesture to the greens, that *we* will all end up paying for with little to no benefit to us, fair enough if smart meters were only fitted when your old meter came to the end of it's life or for new installations but what will happen to all the millions of perfectly good meters, removed that were not due for changing yet.


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## AlanY (26 Nov 2021)

hunter27 said:


> but what will happen to all the millions of perfectly good meters, removed that were not due for changing yet


They could sell them to one of the EU countries that very sensibly avoided Smart Meters. You know, those technologically backward states like Germany, who found no economical argument to support smart metering. But then, they also did not have somebody like Ed Miliband, who kept commissioning smart meter reports until he got one that supported it. One positive report (it just happened to be the last report he commissioned) out of three was enough to impose billions in costs upon the energy customers of the UK for nothing in return (Centrica estimated that the smart meter rollout would add £40 to the bill for each of their customers). That is a lot of money to spend just to avoid getting an estimated bill (assuming your smart meter works). I have to admit, I have sleepless nights worrying about receiving an estimated bill and having to enter a meter reading via the internet.


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## Spectric (26 Nov 2021)

Rather than pushing smart meters they should be phasing out all Fluorescent, incandescent, halogen and gas discharge forms of lighting in favour of LED and this would reduce the UK's total energy consumption rather than something like so called smart meters which do not reduce energy consumption.


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## misterfish (26 Nov 2021)

We've not wanted smart meters and refused several offers to have them fitted. 
However we needed the meters moved for house renovation purposes which our electricity supplier said they would arrange, but despite being chased nothing seemed to happen. I worked out that the meters only needed to be moved about a foot or so and the existing wiring was long enough to accomodate this. As nothing seemed to be happening I thought it might help if the meters were changed to smart versions that I might be able to persuade the electician to fit the new meters where I wanted (in exchange for a few beer tokens).

Well, the fitting company intially said they needed to carry out a site survey and would arrange this, but all went quiet. I phoned again after a couple of weeks and it was completely different - no problem, they could fit the meters in a week and if I wanted they would move them up to a meter! All free of charge!

So now we have two smart meters where we wanted them allowing us to cut an access through the wall where the old meters used to be.

As for 'smart' - the electrician said having PV was no problem but it meant the remote display wouldn't give us any useful info as it can't take the pv production into account and give any meaningful cost type displays. So we haven't bothered with remote displays. 

As for meter readers, they were almost extict here - I had to send readings every month, but now I don't have to bother. 

Jeff


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## AlanY (26 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> Rather than pushing smart meters they should be phasing out all Fluorescence, incandescent, halogen and gas discharge forms of lighting in favour of LED and this would reduce the UK's total energy consumption rather than something like so called smart meters which do not reduce energy consumption.


Very good suggestion. I often wonder about all those streetlights that blaze away and pollute our night skies. Are they all LED? 

Also, just to work, Smart installations must use electricity. According to Smart Energy UK, the IHD/PPMID will cost the customer about £1 per year to run. Given that interest in what the device can tell you rapidly wanes after the brief 'honeymoon period', I hope people stop bothering to charge them when they lose interest. On the Supplier's side, the smart meter installation itself uses about 1kWh per year. Not much until you consider there will eventually be 50 million such installations in the UK. There is also the fact that gas smart meters are battery powered...

Yeah, I am not a fan. When I started work (back in 2013) on the systems that support smart metering the team I was working in were asked whether we all had smart meters? I replied no. The manager concerned asked me why not? "Because I have a brain" did not go down very well as the answer.


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## Lonsdale73 (26 Nov 2021)

Recent adverts I've seen recently claim having a smart meter can a) show what's consuming the power, b) reduce bills by 30+% and c) reduce carbon footprint by x million tonnes. All complete nonsense.

I moved to a house that had smart meters installed. Soon after moving in, the previous owner phoned in a state of panic after being hit with a huge final (gas) bill. She was in such a state I couldn't be sure if she said 17 or 70 but the last part was definitely thousand pounds! The house stood empty for at least three months over summer, with only gas powering only hot water and central heating and even at 'only' £17k, that's an awful lot of how water/heating especially over what passes for summer. 

BRitih Gas decided the meters were 'faulty' so settled with her then opened an account with me. Despite it being them who advised the meters were faulty, I had to wait 28 days before I could report them as such. Then took another few weeks for an engineer to actually come out. He took one look at the gas meter and announced he wasn't touching it but he did replace the electric one which came with a remote, USB powered, monitor; they're 'faulty' too. The monitor displays what is currently being used but neither it, the app I was asked to install on my phone nor the web-based account I had to set up show any totals.

Pretty much confirms that smart meters are just hype.


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## AlanY (26 Nov 2021)

Ozi said:


> Everybody stop being so dam negative and do your bit.


And what, exactly, is that? Just accept what the 'experts' tell us to do, without question, I suppose?


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## John Brown (26 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> Rather than pushing smart meters they should be phasing out all Fluorescence, incandescent, halogen and gas discharge forms of lighting in favour of LED and this would reduce the UK's total energy consumption rather than something like so called smart meters which do not reduce energy consumption.


This has been going on for some time. It's already difficult to buy conventional incandescent lamps.


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## Titan_uk (26 Nov 2021)

sploo said:


> the idea of reporting the energy usage (so you don't need to send people out to read meters) is in itself a good idea.





sploo said:


> Perhaps the bigger long term benefits can be in real-time processing of energy data, looking at trends, and apps to suggest "green" periods for using power.



I get where you're coming from but I respectfully disagree. Despite the companies insistence it's for the good of all it's all about maximising profits. Saving money and selling exported data.

The grid already knows what a 'green period is', even the most uninformed person can take a reasonable guess at what a 'peak time' is, companies already know what peak usage is in my locality, it doesn't need such fine granularity, if it's really to help me..why is it 2 way?

'don't need to send people out to read meters..'

This in my humble opinion is a very very bad idea where is the consideration of the human cost and balance? How much would 1 paid meter reader contribute in taxes? I'd rather pay a bit more on my bills and keep people in a job than generate higher and higher profits for companies (might moderate that a bit if most of them were actually UK companies). And yes, I'm aware of all the arguements for profits so shareholders invest, so companies can invest, etc etc - that's partly cobblers too.


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## Sporky McGuffin (26 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> One positive report (it just happened to be the last report he commissioned) out of three was enough to impose billions in costs upon the energy customers of the UK for nothing in return (Centrica estimated that the smart meter rollout would add £40 to the bill for each of their customers).



How did you go from £40 per customer to "billions"? How many households do you think there are in the UK?

Even if each of us lived alone it'd add up to £268M, an order of magnitude lower than the lowest reasonable definition of "billions".

I hate to interrupt someone when they're ranting, but if your anger is based on bad maths then it might be worth thinking again.


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## Cabinetman (26 Nov 2021)

I don’t know what he was thinking but possibly


Sporky McGuffin said:


> How did you go from £40 per customer to "billions"? How many households do you think there are in the UK?
> 
> Even if each of us lived alone it'd add up to £268M, an order of magnitude lower than the lowest reasonable definition of "billions".
> 
> I hate to interrupt someone when they're ranting, but if your anger is based on bad maths then it might be worth thinking again.


 I don’t know what he was thinking but possibly the difference in the maths is based on what this whole ridiculous exercise must be costing, I’m sure they’ve spent a great deal more than £40 trying to persuade me just up to now before it actually gets to fitting one and then replacing it a couple of times. Ian


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## John Brown (26 Nov 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I don’t know what he was thinking but possibly
> 
> I don’t know what he was thinking but possibly the difference in the maths is based on what this whole ridiculous exercise must be costing, I’m sure they’ve spent a great deal more than £40 trying to persuade me just up to now before it actually gets to fitting one and then replacing it a couple of times. Ian


It's your fault then! If you'd simply rolled over in the beginning, it would have saved a lot of money!


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## sploo (26 Nov 2021)

Titan_uk said:


> I get where you're coming from but I respectfully disagree. Despite the companies insistence it's for the good of all it's all about maximising profits. Saving money and selling exported data.


Literally anything almost all private enterprise does is about maximising profits; so the problem is that if the industry wasn't installing smart meters it would likely be accused of doing so only in order to reduce costs and maximising profits.




Titan_uk said:


> The grid already knows what a 'green period is', even the most uninformed person can take a reasonable guess at what a 'peak time' is, companies already know what peak usage is in my locality, it doesn't need such fine granularity, if it's really to help me..why is it 2 way?


I think you overestimate the knowledge/awareness/thought of the average human being!




Titan_uk said:


> 'don't need to send people out to read meters..'
> 
> This in my humble opinion is a very very bad idea where is the consideration of the human cost and balance? How much would 1 paid meter reader contribute in taxes? I'd rather pay a bit more on my bills and keep people in a job than generate higher and higher profits for companies (might moderate that a bit if most of them were actually UK companies). And yes, I'm aware of all the arguements for profits so shareholders invest, so companies can invest, etc etc - that's partly cobblers too.


That's a broadly fair argument, but somewhat unrelated to the specifics of smart meters. Besides; if such meter readers were still employed I'm sure that companies would have them on zero hour zero benefits below minimum wage contracts anyway - so it's not like the existence of that job positively contributes to society.


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## AlanY (26 Nov 2021)

If you want a laugh, have a read of this (an article penned by a journalist who is also a passionate proponent of renewable energy):









Smart Meter Disadvantages: myths, problems, surge pricing?


UK smart meters are plagued with disadvantages due to their flawed rollout. Let's look at the shortcomings, the causes and what can be done.




theswitch.co.uk





Other than that, I am finished with this thread. Do have a good weekend.


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## Billy_wizz (26 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> I guess you need to weigh the costs against that of meter readers.


True although not had a meter reader round for 2-3 years lol


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## ivan (26 Nov 2021)

No doubt we'll all have electric cars one day, but for me, not now, not yet. Early Vauxhall Leafs (leaves?) now have dying batteries, car virtually worthless. The batteries are getting better, but a 250 mile claimed range necesitates 30mph, just try 70 on a motorway in winter, heater on, wipers going and see how for you get. The UK would need 6 large nuclears to replace all the fossil fuel sold for transport. Not enough raw material to make lithium batteries for the world's cars, either. Hydrogen fuel cell might work, with hydrogen from photovoltaic electrolysis in the Gulf states.


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## Sporky McGuffin (26 Nov 2021)

ivan said:


> No doubt we'll all have electric cars one day, but for me, not now, not yet. Early Vauxhall Leafs (leaves?) now have dying batteries, car virtually worthless. The batteries are getting better, but a 250 mile claimed range necesitates 30mph, just try 70 on a motorway in winter, heater on, wipers going and see how for you get. The UK would need 6 large nuclears to replace all the fossil fuel sold for transport. Not enough raw material to make lithium batteries for the world's cars, either. Hydrogen fuel cell might work, with hydrogen from photovoltaic electrolysis in the Gulf states.



Perhaps you should do some basic fact checking before posting. 

The Leaf is a Nissan, not a Vauxhall. No Leaf model has a claimed or official range of 250 miles. The first ones are ten years old now; the 2010 and 2011 models are all around £6.5k - £7.5k on Autotrader. That's significantly more than a same-age Ford Focus.


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## Ozi (26 Nov 2021)

AlanY said:


> And what, exactly, is that? Just accept what the 'experts' tell us to do, without question, I suppose?


Well I tend to listen to experts - don't you


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## Ollie78 (26 Nov 2021)

Ozi said:


> Well I tend to listen to experts - don't you



Depends who`s paying them.
A bit like "follow the science" or "statistics indicate".

Ollie


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## Spectric (26 Nov 2021)

Initially electric vehicles will be like the first cordless tools, not much use when the battery is knackered due to cost of new battery but also with the EV you have the labour involved as well.


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## HamsterJam (26 Nov 2021)

The real reason energy companies are so keen to install smart meters is the government have set ambitious targets to roll them out and OFGEM are imposing substantial fines for not achieving them.


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## Sporky McGuffin (27 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> Initially electric vehicles will be like the first cordless tools, not much use when the battery is knackered due to cost of new battery but also with the EV you have the labour involved as well.



The technology will inevitably get better and better, but there are first generation Tesla Model S that are still trundling around happily with 6-figure mileages. The batteries do deteriorate, but nothing like old NiCads did, and even when they're effectively fine for car use they can go into storage or be recycled.


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## D_W (27 Nov 2021)

ivan said:


> No doubt we'll all have electric cars one day, but for me, not now, not yet. Early Vauxhall Leafs (leaves?) now have dying batteries, car virtually worthless. The batteries are getting better, but a 250 mile claimed range necesitates 30mph, just try 70 on a motorway in winter, heater on, wipers going and see how for you get. The UK would need 6 large nuclears to replace all the fossil fuel sold for transport. Not enough raw material to make lithium batteries for the world's cars, either. Hydrogen fuel cell might work, with hydrogen from photovoltaic electrolysis in the Gulf states.



There'd plenty of raw materials to make batteries. They probably won't have cobalt that much longer, and maybe not even lithium.

The issue with the leaf here in the states where it gets truly cold is they had a short range to start with and then didn't thermally condition the batteries. That was an error of thrift that Tesla didn't make. 

I don't have a plug in car either and no immediate plans for one, but my bil drives a Tesla 3 90 miles round trip to commute 3 years so far and no issues. His work is across from a township building that charges for free, so on the odd one or two times he forgets to plug his car in overnight he just charges for free and crosses the street. The garage under my building charges up to 10 kWh free each day, which would move a model 3 30 miles or more. If I had one, it would leave me at a 15 mile surplus on a daily basis.

But the thing that is coming is autonomous taxis.


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## D_W (27 Nov 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> The technology will inevitably get better and better, but there are first generation Tesla Model S that are still trundling around happily with 6-figure mileages. The batteries do deteriorate, but nothing like old NiCads did, and even when they're effectively fine for car use they can go into storage or be recycled.



I think the current extended range 3 is to get to about 300k miles before it loses 10 percent of battery capacity. I don't think the batteries will be the thing that takes the cars off of the road. What I gather about the older hybrids, it's not the battery that gives up, it's the charging system and the cost to replace it.


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## Spectric (27 Nov 2021)

The other important thing not mentioned in the mileage claims is the terrain, you will get more miles per charge in Norfolk than in places like Cumbria and the Pennines where the roads have more gradients, and the power taken out on the climb is not put back through regenerative braking going down.


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## John Brown (27 Nov 2021)

Spectric said:


> The other important thing not mentioned in the mileage claims is the terrain, you will get more miles per charge in Norfolk than in places like Cumbria and the Pennines where the roads have more gradients, and the power taken out on the climb is not put back through regenerative braking going down.


It's certainly true that you get worse mileage in hilly terrain(we have a PHEV, and live in a hilly region, so I speak from experience) but to be fair, at least some of the energy is recovered through regenerative braking. With an ICE car, none of the energy is recovered, and with conventional braking you produce more harmful brake disc dust.

But if course the mileage claims are overblown. Just like they are for ICE vehicles. Surely we all knew that....


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## D_W (29 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> It's certainly true that you get worse mileage in hilly terrain(we have a PHEV, and live in a hilly region, so I speak from experience) but to be fair, at least some of the energy is recovered through regenerative braking. With an ICE car, none of the energy is recovered, and with conventional braking you produce more harmful brake disc dust.
> 
> But if course the mileage claims are overblown. Just like they are for ICE vehicles. Surely we all knew that....



I don't know what the mileage claims are over there, but do recall some guests telling us of 60mpg cars over there. The testing methodology here in the states is prescribed, so the results are more realistic. For example, a 2 ton SUV might have ratings like 19/27 mpg (city/highway) with a combined rating of 22 or23. 

People living in rural areas will better the rating, and people in urban will have trouble matching the low side if they live somewhere that there are hills. Spouse's car (similar to above) is 18/25 rated. On highway trips (vacation, visit relatives), it gets about 27mpg at a little above 70mph. In the hills here where all stoplights are at the bottoms of hills (terrible place for efficiency, but stoplights at the tops of hills are death traps due to no view of traffic coming over the hill), the mrs. gets about 16 mpg. We live in a retail corridor (the development is just off of it), so any trip is generally met with stop lights and only a small number get to the highway. 

It' be easy to complain about mileage, but it's a product of the area and use and driving more on the highway to improve the mileage doesn't make much sense (we don't drive many miles). 

hybrids get close to their rated mileage here, even in the hills. Former boss of mine had a slightly smaller SUV in the same traffic conditions - hybrid. based on its rating, the gas version would've gotten about 18 mpg - he was averaging 29. The cost for hybrid at the time was $8k as an option, so it would've never paid off, but the difference in city conditions for a hybrid is stark.


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## John Brown (29 Nov 2021)

Well, my old diesel Mercedes easily managed over 60mpg on a run. Unlike most transatlantic comparisons, our gallons are bigger than yours, but we also tend towards smaller engines.
I believe that in America, no-one would admit to having a car that averaged more than 30mpg, in case their masculinity came under suspicion.


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Nov 2021)

John Brown said:


> But if course the mileage claims are overblown. Just like they are for ICE vehicles. Surely we all knew that....



I think it's worth remembering that they aren't manufacturer claims - they're all measured according to a standardised test, so "Official" is probably a better term than "claimed". I'm not disputing that the test isn't perfect, but it firms a basis for comparison. My AWD diesel estate doesn't hit the official numbers, but my little lightweight sports car beats its - they end up at pretty much the same fuel cost per mile.


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## D_W (30 Nov 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> How did you go from £40 per customer to "billions"? How many households do you think there are in the UK?
> 
> Even if each of us lived alone it'd add up to £268M, an order of magnitude lower than the lowest reasonable definition of "billions".
> 
> I hate to interrupt someone when they're ranting, but if your anger is based on bad maths then it might be worth thinking again.



268÷40 = 6.7mm implied population. You probably meant 2.68 billion and 67 million implied population. Makes the last sentence above humorous.

Google says a 2.4 individuals per household in the UK, then add small commercial properties and individuals with more than one on property meter and I'd be surprised if the total meter count is much less than 50 million. 2 billion total pounds, but further adjustment to remove people who took smart meters voluntarily.


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Nov 2021)

Ha! 

I am an silly person. Sorry.


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## D_W (30 Nov 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Ha!
> 
> I am an silly person. Sorry.



I have a math degree. I do the same thing all the time, to the point that I am afraid often to correct something and say "looks like bad math!". Sometimes the correction is wrong, the original numbers wrong and correcting something and giving a bad number looks like two dummies in a jar. 

So, no malice in bringing up the number - I see things off in factors of ten pretty easily, but when doing my own work, miss the same thing often.


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Nov 2021)

No malice seen - I was wrong, absolutely right to point it out.  

I'm an engineer; thankfully not bridges or my being a factor of ten out might get very embarrassing.


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## TRITON (30 Nov 2021)

> *How to benefit from smart meters?*



Do everything you can to avoid it being fitted


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## flying haggis (30 Nov 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> No malice seen - I was wrong, absolutely right to point it out.
> 
> I'm an engineer; thankfully not bridges or my being a factor of ten out might get very embarrassing.


You didnt quote for HS2 by any chance..................................?


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Nov 2021)

Sadly no. That was an opportunity to make good (or probably evil) money...


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