# Any plumbers here?



## johnelliott (20 Sep 2004)

I'm fed up of having to wait for a plumber each time I want to change a sink in a kitchen (probably one or two a week), and I've decided to have a go myself.
I think I would probably be best to use compression joints so as to not have to do any soldering, although those Antex pipe soldering electric thingies look useful.
I know I need to learn about earth bonding as well, as most of the sinks I would fit are stainless steel
Anyone able to recommend any good books on the subject?or have any other advice?

John


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## ike (20 Sep 2004)

> I think I would probably be best to use compression joints so as to not have to do any soldering,



Yup, niceneasy.



> although those Antex pipe soldering electric thingies look useful.



Possibly the most useless thing I ever bought. Works well until the copper clamps oxidise (which isn't very long), and pain in the a**e to keep scraping them clean.




> I know I need to learn about earth bonding as well,



As far as I know connect earth clamp to each pipe as close as possible to tap (ie. point of human contact). Seeing as electrikery is very lazy, it'll then be more inclined to use the earth wire than your body.




> Anyone able to recommend any good books on the subject?or have any other advice?



I reckon you could manage without a book. Otherwise, the sheds have these 'how to' leaflets that give useful pointers.

Ike


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## Anonymous (20 Sep 2004)

If you're a total novice you could still end up with leaking compression fittings. The usual problem is over-tightening, but by how much? I love the new push fittings -- no soldering, no electricity, no spanners, no ptfe tape, etc., just push it on and forget it. The only things you have to make sure of are that a) the piipe is clean, and b) it's still circular after cutting (you did use a tubular pipe cutter, not a hacksaw, right?). Bit more expensive, but for little jobs, perfect! They even work in central heating systems, by the way.


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## ike (20 Sep 2004)

A tip. I discovered those flexible braided hoses for connecting the taps. You can get them with an integral isolator valve as well. Horrific ripoff in DIY sheds but dead cheap in Screwfix - . They are very quick and easy compared to fiddling on and soldering rigid pipework to the tap tails.

Ike


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## Anonymous (20 Sep 2004)

You don't necessarily have to bond the taps/pipework to earth, though in most installations you would do so.

If the sink/taps/pipework are isolated, for example the incoming/outgoing pipes are plastic, then there's a train of thought that says don't bond.

The reason for this is a little involved, but basically when you bond something you are creating an equi-potential zone. Which means that all bare metalwork is at the same potential - usually all at earth potential but it doesn't matter if they are all sitting at 10,000v - the important thing is that they are all at the same voltage, 'cos current don't flow if there isn't a voltage difference.

BUT, if the metalwork is completely isolated (as in being connected via plastic pipes) you COULD be substantially increasing the danger by bonding the sink/taps, etc, for the simple reason that you are then giving them an instant path to earth which wouldn't have been there otherwise. They stick one hand on the sink, the other on something live, and the electricity flows through them. And people only get electrocuted 'cos they put themselves into the conductive path where electricity can flow.

This bonding is actually quite a complicated subject which even seasoned electricians of many years standing can't always agree about. I run into it regularly (I provide general handyman services including plumbing and minor electrics).

Andrew


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## Anonymous (20 Sep 2004)

John if you use compression fittings i would still use a jointing compound on the olives (boss green) it has to be suitable for drinking water (potable water) as not all compounds are suitable. just a small smear on the olive will do it, make sure the pipe is pushed fully home before you really crank up the fitting. Most of the leaks i go to are from dodgy push fit fittings from sheds, ptfe taped compression fittings and the poor use soldering equipment. 

PS if your ever in devon pop in for a crash course in plumbing, i had a friend down 6 months ago in the same boat as you now he does his own .

PPS only for water though, if you want a go at gas you need to spend approx 3 years in the plumbing trade (new regs) then around £600 for the basic CCN1 assessment (only covers gas pipes not appliances, all additional domestic appliance assessments are around £2500 and take approx 3 weeks to complete and only last 5 years) the £410 corgi registration and so on.


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## thomaskennedy (21 Sep 2004)

I've just fitted a sink in my kitchen,

I found it quite difficult because we HAD to get one of those mixer taps (the one with one tap on :roll: )

But in the end i got there, and happy to say, no leaks!

I just copied the same overall setup that was on the previous taps! That was the main water pipes>A bendy kinda pipe>tap

The waste was really easy for me too!

All i needed was a spanner to tighten all the joints up and that was it  

Well worth having a crack yourself!

Ta

Tom


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## ike (21 Sep 2004)

> if you use compression fittings i would still use a jointing compound on the olives (boss green)



If you have to do that, then you ain't a very good plumber.


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## johnelliott (21 Sep 2004)

ike":2newiguw said:


> > if you use compression fittings i would still use a jointing compound on the olives (boss green)
> 
> 
> 
> If you have to do that, then you ain't a very good plumber.


Seems a rather strong comment to me, Ike, is it not possible that there's more than one way of doing a good job?
John


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## ike (21 Sep 2004)

John,

OK, perhaps a little. I'd say using jointing compound is a belt and braces method. But compression fittings are designed to seal with ease, dry, and compound shouldn't be necessary. Where it can go wrong is as was mentioned, the pipe is not round, not clean and smooth (00 wire wool) or the pipe is not parallel to the fitting - all simple mistakes easily avoided even by amateurs. 

My comment was a general statement of opinion, blunt I'll agree, but it was not directed at any particular person. I don't know anyones competence, skill, or knowledge on the forum, except as I can interpret from posts, and I am not insensitive enough to suggest otherwise by my remark. My apologies if my opinion was misconstrued in any way.

Ike


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## Mdotflorida (21 Sep 2004)

John

I have installed a number of sinks.

I progressed from compression to yorkshire fittings to end feed fittings. Soldering copper pipe together is really not that difficult. Cleanliness is the key. Make sure all ends are cut square across and cleaned properly before applying flux then solder.

If the pipe has residual water in it then it becomes more tricky.

As a previous post suggests, I would use flex connectors to the actual taps so that you have some play in making both ends meet and of course you can tighten the tap end before installing it behind the sink.

Try soldering (don't skimp on the gas torch though) , you'll be surprised just how easy it is. Plus of course cheaper than either push fit, compression or Yorkshire fittings.

Jeff


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## Anonymous (21 Sep 2004)

My comment for using a small amount of jointing compound is for a number of reasons like you say belts and braces or as i like to say fit and forget. Oh and BTW that is what that type of sealant is designed for and the use of it does not make someone less of a plumber. Unless your opinion is all plumbers are [email protected]~ :lol: .Not a dig at anyone just pointing out a fact. If someone used half a tube of silicon or plumbers mait on a compression fitting then i would say you aint much of a plumber. But to make that comment over something that is designed for that use is like saying what you use glue you ain't much of a cabinet maker :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Anonymous (21 Sep 2004)

You should never use any form of compound on a compression fitting, boss white or any other form. If you are forced to do so then there's something fundamentally wrong with the joint you are trying to make - cleanliness of materials being the main candidate.

Providing that you use a new olive (the circular ring that gets squeezed by the compression fitting) and clean all surfaces before starting there will never be a problem.

The olive is specially tempered during manufacture to be malleable, meaning that it bends and buckles easily. It is based upon a brass compound which is heat treated. This makes it very easy to deform, so when the compression fitting tightens down on it it doesn't give much resistance to being deformed to seal the joint between pipe and fitting.

Problems can and do occur when you try to re-use an olive by undoing and then retightening the compression fitting, because it will have lost its malleability and can't deform like it once did. In these situations cut the olive off and put a new one on.

The other possible problem with a compression fitting is that the pipe you are tightening onto is deformed - either not circular or it has a less than perfect surface for the olive to mate with. Either way, replace that section of pipe.

Andrew


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## Anonymous (21 Sep 2004)

May I also suggest that if anyone needs help with any form of DIY outside of carpentry they try the following online forums:

http://novoserve.no-ip.biz

Asking a question in a relevant forum will provide an answer from a qualified professional. I don't think I'd come to this carpentry forum expecting to find answers to a simple plumbing problem 

Andrew


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## frank (21 Sep 2004)

john go to your local shed and buy some pipe and fittings and tools it wont cost you that much and practice if you fluff it cut it off and start again


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## johnelliott (21 Sep 2004)

HandyMac":10m03l28 said:


> Asking a question in a relevant forum will provide an answer from a qualified professional. I don't think I'd come to this carpentry forum expecting to find answers to a simple plumbing problem
> 
> Andrew


I consider the contributors on this forum to be my friends and acquaintances, and as such will continue to ask them for whatever advice I wish, whether or not you agree (with no smiley). 

John


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## Noel (21 Sep 2004)

Hey Andrew,

What's all this "carpentry" business???? Ain't no carpenters here, or joiners or chippys or Karens, only cabinet makers, furniture makers, even master furniture makers , woodworkers, power and meat powered tool cognoscenti (Hi Alf) and me...........

Noel


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## Anonymous (21 Sep 2004)

ehh up john it looks like the forums full of plumbers, i think too much time watching diy shows makes people Plumbers. Sorry john that a simple question has gone pear shaped but being a heating engineer for 15 years what do i know about the site ways of plumbing :lol: :lol: :lol: 

handymac


> You should never use any form of compound on a compression fitting, boss white or any other form. If you are forced to do so then there's something fundamentally wrong with the joint you are trying to make - cleanliness of materials being the main candidate.


 so mac are you saying when you disturb a compression fitting that you must replace the olive each time if thats the case you may notice the pipe will be kinked where the old olive was so (after you cut the olive off the pipe) so then you end up replacing a length of pipe god just imagine if you disturbed 2 joints you would have to replumb the whole house (hammer) . PS you cant use boss white on taps its not for potable water.

PS tongue firmly in cheek


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## tx2man (22 Sep 2004)

Hi John,
I'm no plumber! (there i've said it)
The only plumbing job i can do, are taps.
In 100% agreement with Frank. Whether you want compression,
push-fit etc ,it's fairly cheap to practice and won't take you long
to master. (Apologies to fully q'd up plumbers)

TX


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## DaveL (22 Sep 2004)

johnelliott":21d1qrt9 said:


> I consider the contributors on this forum to be my friends and acquaintances, and as such will continue to ask them for whatever advice I wish, whether or not you agree (with no smiley).
> 
> John



I must agree with John, the members of this forum are very much friends.  (Does that make me sad? :roll: ) I know that I have lots of experience outside of woodwork and will share it if appropriate and I am glad to consider advice from other forum members. 8)


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## Anonymous (22 Sep 2004)

Apologies to anyone who got miffed by me using the term "carpenter". To me that is (or at least was!) a term of respect meant to encompass all of the different job descriptions which involve working with wood. I stand better educated that perhaps the use of that term might not have been appropriate.

With respect to plumbing I am a very recent (as in last week!) convert of pushfit plumbing. For the last 30 years I've used solder or compression fittings 'cos I didn't think that pushfit could possibly be relied upon, and last week when fitting a new sink for a customer decided to give pushfit a try for the first time. Man, have I been wasting a huge amount of time in recent years sticking with copper fittings! No fiddling around with spanners or blowtorches in difficult to access areas, just prepare the joint, push together, tighten up with fingers, job done.

And you don't use boss white with pushfit (in fact I would assume that boss white might act as a lubricant which allowed the pushfit joint to come apart).

Andrew


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## Anonymous (22 Sep 2004)

Have to agree with HM pushfit are easy to use they do sell a silicon type grease as a lubricant for ease of fitting and to lessen the chance of 'o' ring damage. This does not affect the stability of the joint as there are small teeth inside the fitting that actually grip the pipe. Steer clear of the el cheapo shed variety as i have been to several jobs where they have failed after just a few years. If you do get the chance go to a plumbers merchants and have a good look around most of the time the staff in these places can be very helpful and they always know what fittings are good a which are poor cuz the plumbers will bend their ears if they had any problems :lol:


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## woodshavings (22 Sep 2004)

I am a reasonable competent DIYer, I fitted all the plumbing in my house a number of years ago ( my house was a "self build/managed" project with me & SWIMBO doing labouring, electrics and plumbing, the remainder directly contracted )

I recently tried the push fit plumbing and was amazed! Easy to connect between the original copper and the new work and routing the plastic pipe is a doddle. One tip, before pushing the fitting home, mark the outside of the pipe with the fitted depth of the fitting, then you can be sure that the pipe has seated correctly.

One thing to be aware of is that the pipe is not electrically conductive - in some older properties the plumbing was used as an earthing point. 

John


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## Alf (22 Sep 2004)

HandyMac":3ib88705 said:


> Apologies to anyone who got miffed by me using the term "carpenter". To me that is (or at least was!) a term of respect meant to encompass all of the different job descriptions which involve working with wood.


Hell no, carpenters are the lowest form of wood butchering life. Yep. You don't need to look far to see the evidence either. His Normness is a Master Carpenter isn't he...?

And yep, my tongue is so darn firmly in my cheek I'm wishing my joints would be as snug a fit :wink: 



DaveL":3ib88705 said:


> I must agree with John, the members of this forum are very much friends.  (Does that make me sad? :roll: )


You need to ask? :lol:

Cheers, Alf

Can't plumb. Can't tile. Can woodwork a bit. (Yes, it's spot the quote time again, folks)


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## cambournepete (22 Sep 2004)

Alf":26m4qyvy said:


> Can't plumb. Can't tile.



Oh yes you can - you just might not know it yet...


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## frank (22 Sep 2004)

now that we have sorted out the plumbers the chippies and sparks  what about the state of the nation :twisted:


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## Anonymous (22 Sep 2004)

frank":gk3kszmp said:


> now that we have sorted out the plumbers the chippies and sparks  what about the state of the nation :twisted:



42

Andrew


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## DaveL (22 Sep 2004)

HandyMac":1mt2y3kj said:


> 42



_Don't Panic_


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## Anonymous (22 Sep 2004)

Dave your too late i started to panic when you said we were all your friends :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: no i must admit although i get on my high horse sometimes i have to agree the advice and the banter that goes on in this forum is great.

PS ure me bestest mates in da world hic hic  
god i knew i should not have had that shandy :lol: :lol:


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## Anonymous (23 Sep 2004)

anobium punctatum":35z5c3io said:


> the banter that goes on in this forum is great



What banter? All I see is serious advice being offered. If you want banter I suggest you go visit www.lunaticsarerunningtheasylum.co.uk.

Andrew


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## DaveL (23 Sep 2004)

HandyMac":1fspxzfr said:


> anobium punctatum":1fspxzfr said:
> 
> 
> > the banter that goes on in this forum is great
> ...



Hang on there I can hear Floyd in the distance, tell me again which one is Pink :roll:


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## Anonymous (23 Sep 2004)

What you on about visit, should have told me i could visit the lunatic asylum before they locked the door to my padded cell :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Anonymous (23 Sep 2004)

Well if you be in the UK me hearty the asylum is all about you.

Andrew


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