# Hock plane irons



## andyavast (3 May 2008)

I have been tuning my dads old Stanley no.4 smoothing plane recently. I managed to get nice fine shavings and a pleasing finished surface on a particularly knotty piece of cherry using the stock iron and chipbreaker, but had the obvious problems with edge failure. A week or so ago I purchased a Hock high carbon iron, and chipbreaker to complete the tuning process. After flatting the back and cambering/honing, I installed the iron and was instantly gratified by the surface the plane produced! After a short period of planing however, i started to experience those little raised tracks that signify edge failures. 
I'm starting to wonder if I should have purchased an A2 iron, because although I don't mind sharpening my tools regularly to keep them performing well, my employer seems to view it as a waste of time. 
Has anyone compared these two irons in proper use? How much more abrasion resistant is A2 in real world terms than Hocks High Carbon Steel? Will it get me a payrise? Chance would be a fine thing.
Any input would be appreciated. 

Andy.


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## Joe (3 May 2008)

Perhaps you should try one of Ray Iles's D2 irons - I'm no expert but the Tools For Working Wood website describes them as tougher than A2, and I've had good results with mine. Ray recommends using diamond stones to hone them but I find waterstones fine.

Joel


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## Philly (3 May 2008)

Andy
I've found nearly every edge tool I own needed a few sharpenings before the early edge deterioration you describe stopped happening. I believe it is due to the hardening process leaving a thin skin of weaker material on the outside.
After a few more sharpenings you should of removed enough material to get to the "good stuff" - this isn't just a problem with O1 steel, but A2 and others.
Don't give up on your nice Hock iron yet!
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Joe (3 May 2008)

Philly":3itqxja5 said:


> I've found nearly every edge tool I own needed a few sharpenings before the early edge deterioration you describe stopped happening. I believe it is due to the hardening process leaving a thin skin of weaker material on the outside.



Always learning something new on this forum!


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## andyavast (3 May 2008)

Many thanks to you Joe and Philly! I will by no means give up on the iron, the edge I got was so fine and very sharp indeed leaving a stunning finish on the cherry i tested it on. Being relatively new to woodworking I reckon it'll be a case of trying everything, it could be a slippery slope this!
Cheers for the advice on the D2 irons Joe, Ray Iles is a man i admire very much and I can only assume he would have excellent reasons for choosing D2 steel for his replacement irons. I'm sure I'll find myself trying them in the not-too-distant future.
I'll crack on with my Hock and post a wee update after a few more sharpenings.

Andy


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## shim20 (3 May 2008)

i got one for my no6. the old blade i had which ran out of steel was a fantastic blade really good. so i got a hock one but did not notice a diffrence really. but nearly just as good steel


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## Racers (3 May 2008)

Hi,

You will have to remove the decaburised layer at the edge of the blade before you get to the good steel. when you heat steel the carbon gets attracted to oxygen it the atmosphere so you have a layer of soft steel that has to be removed. If you have more problems get in tough with Ron, he's a nice chap I met him when I was in America he showed me round his workshop and we had a chat.


Pete


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## bugbear (6 May 2008)

Philly":3es6vr6y said:


> Andy
> I've found nearly every edge tool I own needed a few sharpenings before the early edge deterioration you describe stopped happening. I believe it is due to the hardening process leaving a thin skin of weaker material on the outside.
> After a few more sharpenings you should of removed enough material to get to the "good stuff" - this isn't just a problem with O1 steel, but A2 and others.
> Don't give up on your nice Hock iron yet!
> ...



Agreed, and I'd add - bevel angle also effects edge strength.

I'd hold onto your money, and persist with the Hock a while yet.

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (6 May 2008)

andyavast":108u59tr said:


> I'm starting to wonder if I should have purchased an A2 iron, because although I don't mind sharpening my tools regularly to keep them performing well, my employer seems to view it as a waste of time.
> 
> Andy.



Andy, 

I too think you'll soon get to like your new Hock. But your employer sounds like he isn't too fussy. Difficult position you're in. Keep your integrity, or keep your job. No contest obviously, but it's a shame.. 

Besta luck
John


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## matthewwh (9 May 2008)

bugbear":zrseavpd said:


> Agreed, and I'd add - bevel angle also effects edge strength.
> 
> BugBear



This may be the best solution to both of your problems, a higher secondary bevel will take the steel past the angle where it switches from failing by chipping or bending to that where it eventually dulls through abrasion (a much, much longer process). You can always try again with a shallower angle once you are a sixteenth or so into the blade.

There's nothing quite like a freshly sharpened blade, but at least this will allow you to keep going until your boss takes a break and have a crafty sharpen while he's not looking. - There is something desperately wrong with that situation!

A2 is only a few percent more abrasion resistant than O1 thanks to its 5% chromium content, but has the drawback of suffering from catastrophic failure (crumbling) at low angles. This is why A2 tools are almost invariably ground at 30 degrees or more. I believe that the higher bevel angles contribute much more to the perceived improvement in edge holding than the inherent toughness of the material itself.

Ron's blades are among the finest that money can buy and I'm certain that with a little persistence you will get outstanding performance from it.


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## andyavast (9 May 2008)

Thanks for the words of encouragement fellas, I actually have started sharpening during breaks! I've found it's actually pretty difficult to be an apprentice with standards in the joinery business these days. Handtool use is generally frowned upon due to them being slower than power tools or machinery... I have big ambition though and love working with wood so I won't let it get me down too much!


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## Benchwayze (9 May 2008)

Power to your elbow Andrew.. 

Seems to me your boss doesn't know how lucky he/she is.

John


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## tnimble (9 May 2008)

Being trained with power tools only at school and just started really getting to know how hand tools are (correctly) used, I have found out that there are a lot of tasks that are faster with a hand tool than with a power tool. 15 years ago I probably would not have believed that If somebody had told me they can be faster and more acurate. I've always placed old hand tools as items put on display by tool collectors, and new hand tools as to be for people that could not affoord power tools. Now I know better.


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## bugbear (9 May 2008)

tnimble":mxqw8g8g said:


> Being trained with power tools only at school and just started really getting to know how hand tools are (correctly) used, I have found out that there are a lot of tasks that are faster with a hand tool than with a power tool.



It varies. If you're doing lots of little jobs, hand tools, with their lower setup time can win. If there's repetition involved, the power tools win, and if there's sheer brute labour involved, big engines win.

A human is around 400-500 watts, which is quite demoralising.

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (9 May 2008)

That's about right BB, 

It is quicker by far to take a rebate plane to a short run of timber, than to expend time taking out a router, sticking in the rebate bit, and then clamping the workpiece.

By the time I've done that, I could have the rebate plane dusted off and back on the shelf, with the job done! 

On the other hand, once I glue up a frame that is to recieve a ply-panel, it's much quicker to rebate it afterwards, and clean up the corners, (or round off the corners of the panel! I wouldn't do that... Honestly! )

John


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## andyavast (10 May 2008)

So glad I joined this forum, I was starting to think there was no-one I could share my love of the craft with! Did some work last night with the plane in question, re-honed it and started preparing a board of cherry for a box I plan to make. It cuts better on the second honing! A LOT BETTER!

I know fine shavings are a means to a fine surface (rather than a means to an end) but I was taking full iron width shavings the full length of the board at less than my mitutoyo calipers can measure. After a half hour of work (faces and edges trued and flat) the iron showed no sign of edge failure. BLISS! I can only imagine the edge holding ability will stay this good and my surfaces will continue to sparkle like they did last night!

Regarding my employment, I only have a year and a half to go before my time is out. Then I can pursue my really ambition which is to set up my own small scale furniture workshop. I was planning on taking David Charlesworths tool tuning course this summer which I'm sure will put me on the right track. 

Any other advice from you fine folk would be most gladly received!

Andrew


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## Philly (10 May 2008)

Andy
Glad you got it sorted!
Enjoy,
Philly


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## Benchwayze (10 May 2008)

Glad you are happy with your new blade Andy.

It's nice to find a younger person who knows what he wants to do. Wish I had known when I was starting out. I might have had 10 more happy years with wood!  

Regards
john


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## bugbear (12 May 2008)

andyavast":owngf0vz said:


> ...I was planning on taking David Charlesworths tool tuning course this summer which I'm sure will put me on the right track.
> 
> Any other advice from you fine folk would be most gladly received!



I would recommend reading DC's books (library can help here).

Two things could ensue:

1) Either you know enough not to need the course (which costs money), thus saving you money (Sorry, David...)

or

2) You will be very well prepared for the course, and derive more benefit.

All for around 1.50 in library reservation fees. Neato.

BugBear


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## andyavast (12 May 2008)

I'm a step ahead of you Bugbear! I bought all of Mr. Charlesworths books and enjoyed them greatly. I refer to them often and used the knowledge within to tune up my no.4 smoother, which is working so much better now! I think going down to Devon to study with him for a week might really focus me. Any other ideas to get me on my way?  

Andy


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## Racers (12 May 2008)

Hi, andy

You must check out James Krenov books http://jameskrenov.com/they will change the way you think about woodworking, get A cabinetmakers Notebook, The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking and The Impractical Cabinetmaker.


Pete


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## Benchwayze (12 May 2008)

I agree with Pete.

But I suspect Andy is already half-way there in his approach and feel for working in wood.

It also occurred to me.

Andy, you might also enjoy Alan Peters's

'Cabinetmaking;The Professional Approach'

John


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## andyavast (12 May 2008)

I also own all of James Krenovs books  

Thanks though Pete  

I actually recommend his books to everyone I know! When I say anyone I mean people who are that way inclined. I reckon if someone was to read his books and NOT get anything from them I'd question their sanity! His writing style is so story-like and easy to read in my opinion, I thought it was like Steinbeck on wood. Thats just me though.

The Alan Peters book is one that I have been meaning to get for a while John
I'll put it at the top of my 'to-buy' list.

It's one proper long list!

andy


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## Benchwayze (12 May 2008)

Hi Andy, 

I think you will find the Alan Peters book at www.abebooks.co.uk , but when you see the price you might want to go for paperback, if there is one ! 

look here

The American estimates on value for older books are usually way high! 
Good Luck in your search for that.

Regards
John


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## Oryxdesign (12 May 2008)

Keep it up Andy, your skills will be in high demand in the future. Your employer is lucky to have someone with such great enthusiasm, it's a shame they aren't nurturing it.


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## andyavast (12 May 2008)

Gee, thanks oryx. I don't often get encouragement like this... I'm a little unaccustomed to it. I definitely do not intend to give up!  

CRIKEY! That is a lot for a book, but that is the cheapest I can find it. I'll maybe keep looking and see if I can't get it cheaper anywhere else.

Andy


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## Benchwayze (12 May 2008)

Andy, 
Whehn friends and relatives ask what you would like for Christmas etc.. Just say 'Oh a few quid!' You'll soon have enough to flash the plastic for that book! 

Hope you manage it. It's a great read, and worthy of a place in any woodworker's library. 

But don't forget Edward Barnsley either! 
Regards
John


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## bugbear (13 May 2008)

andyavast":2avhu0qz said:


> Gee, thanks oryx. I don't often get encouragement like this... I'm a little unaccustomed to it. I definitely do not intend to give up!
> 
> CRIKEY! That is a lot for a book, but that is the cheapest I can find it. I'll maybe keep looking and see if I can't get it cheaper anywhere else.
> 
> Andy



Yes; I tried bookfinder (which searches vendors other than ABE) but nothing cheap.

http://www.bookfinder.com/

Library time, I think.

Norfolk and Suffolk don't have it, but Essex did, when I looked. Which indicates (at least) that libraries DO buy it.

Hmm. Anyone know the relationship between:

Cabinetmaking: The Professional Approach, 

# Publisher: Scribner (Jun 1986)
# Language English
# ISBN-10: 0025962000
# ISBN-13: 978-0025962002

and:

Cabinet Making:

# Publisher: Stobart Davies Ltd (February 1985)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 085442024X
# ISBN-13: 978-0854420247

both by Alan Peters ?

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (13 May 2008)

I can't help there BB. 
I have the Hardback, the later book, but I never heard of the other. Maybe it's two different titles for the same book. 
I don't really know who to ask to find out..
I find mine is the Stobart Davies publication, but it is 'The Proffesional Approah' title. 

I wish I could say I will sell mine, but I know if I do, I would regret it later.

Regards
John


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## mr (13 May 2008)

Rumour has it that the Alan Peters book is being reprinted this year, so I would keep your powder dry on that front for the time being . 


http://www.davidcharlesworth.com/bl...i=32&m=5&y=2008&d=1&s=&title=Alan+Peters+Book

cheers Mike


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## bugbear (13 May 2008)

mr":17s5amoe said:


> Rumour has it that the Alan Peters book is being reprinted this year, so I would keep your powder dry on that front for the time being .
> 
> 
> http://www.davidcharlesworth.com/bl...i=32&m=5&y=2008&d=1&s=&title=Alan+Peters+Book
> ...



At the very least, it sounds like paying over 20 quid for it s/h would be "premature".

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (13 May 2008)

Well, I wasn't going to sell mine anyhow! 
Strangely, collectors who want the original version would still pay £40.00 plus, depending on condition. 

Daft I call it.


But if I ever ugently need £40.00, I know what to do!  

John


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## Joe (13 May 2008)

On the subject of book recommendations, I'm reading Richard Sennett's "The Craftsman" at the moment, which is fascinating I think. It is discusses why craft in general is a rewarding and important activity, and how we develop the necessary skills to carry it out (apparently it takes 10,000 hours of practise to become an expert at anything, regardless of the field).

Joel


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## Benchwayze (14 May 2008)

Hi Joe, 

That sounds like an interesting book, but, 10,000 hours? I wonder where that figure came from? That's about 3.42 years of eight-hour working days. 

I was always led to believe that 5 years was nearer the mark. Not constantly doing a particular job, but employment in a particular field required five years of experience and practice, to qualify one as an expert.

The practice of woodwork for instance, covers a staggering amount of 'tasks and procedures'. I would think even five years wouldn't be enough.

I've been at it since I was 11 years old and I am still learning. Wouldn't call myself an expert, when compared to some of the professionals on this forum for instance. I shall have to try the library for this book and have a delve!
Thanks for the info

Regards
John


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## bugbear (14 May 2008)

Joe":1l1kv1ug said:


> On the subject of book recommendations, I'm reading Richard Sennett's "The Craftsman" at the moment, which is fascinating I think. It is discusses why craft in general is a rewarding and important activity, and how we develop the necessary skills to carry it out (apparently it takes 10,000 hours of practise to become an expert at anything, regardless of the field).
> 
> Joel



I didn't agree with him...

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=22263

disclaimer: I've read reviews, and some of his online stuff, but not the book.

BugBear


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## Joe (14 May 2008)

Ah, a controversial subject I see. Sennett quotes Daniel Levitin's "This is Your Brain on Music" as his source for the 10,000 hours figure, saying:



> This seemingly huge time span represents how long researchers estimate it takes for complex skills to become so deeply ingrained that these have become readily available, tacit knowledge.



If you watch someone like Frank Klausz at work I think you can see exactly what this definition an"expert" looks like in practice.

Joel


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## bugbear (15 May 2008)

Joe":e97jxyz2 said:


> If you watch someone like Frank Klausz at work I think you can see exactly what this definition an"expert" looks like in practice.
> 
> Joel



Indeed. At the risk of topic drift, I am far from convinced that someone with this level of skill is desirable in a teacher.

Surely to teach someone you need to be consciously aware of the technique, in order to express it for someone else.

Being able to use a skill unconsciously would seem directly opposed to this.

BugBear


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## Joe (15 May 2008)

bugbear":1iwjig42 said:


> Indeed. At the risk of topic drift, I am far from convinced that someone with this level of skill is desirable in a teacher.
> 
> Surely to teach someone you need to be consciously aware of the technique, in order to express it for someone else.
> 
> ...



Yes, and this is in fact one of the issues that Sennett discusses - he mentions the failure of 17th century master violin makers (such as Antonio Stradivari) to pass on the full extent of their skills to the next generation. He then goes on to talk about different methods of teaching, contrasting "dead denotation" with "expressive instructions" such as "instructions through metaphor". An example of the latter would, I think, be Rob Cosman using his baby son (that man has _so_ many children) in his dovetail-saw video, where he recommends gripping the saw like you would a baby's hand.

This is all highly relevant to Hock plane irons of course.

Joel


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## andyavast (15 May 2008)

I find it fascinating to see a thread evolve like this! It sort of becomes conversational.


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## bugbear (16 May 2008)

Joe":3l1dgx9f said:


> An example of the latter would, I think, be Rob Cosman using his baby son (that man has _so_ many children) in his dovetail-saw video, where he recommends gripping the saw like you would a baby's hand.



Of course such a metaphor, to be of use, requires common experience.

BugBear (happily childless)


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## bugbear (16 May 2008)

Joe":310u0t8y said:


> An example of the latter would, I think, be Rob Cosman using his baby son (that man has _so_ many children) in his dovetail-saw video, where he recommends gripping the saw like you would a baby's hand.



Of course such a metaphor, to be of use, requires shared experience.

I do remember someone saying to adjust the blade in a wooden plane, tapping it about as hard as you'd tap a panel pin in, which seemed helpful.

BugBear (happily childless)


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## ivan (17 May 2008)

Having spent part of the day job in industrial training, for what it's worth, good craftsmen can make excellent instructors, and properly presented his 'automatic' skill should inspire, not frighten off. However passing on practical skills is a skill in itself which needs teaching to the potential instructor, and lots of practice. Simply 'sitting by Fred' is not generally a very effective learning method, even for the eager student!


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## robcosman (24 May 2008)

Bug, never saw anyone post such a comment "happily childless". Children are happiness.


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## DaveL (24 May 2008)

Hi Rob,

Welcome to the forum. 

You link has been caught by our spam trap, it will stop once you have a few more posts, here it is:

www.robcosman.com

I like the idea of spiral bound workshop books, stay open and usable while struggling to emulate the master. :roll: 

I must agree about children, and grandchildren are even better. 8)


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## Philly (24 May 2008)

Welcome aboard, Rob!
Philly


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## woodbloke (24 May 2008)

Philly":9yu4vk8y said:


> Welcome aboard, Rob!
> Philly


...need any help cutting dovetails :lol: :lol: :lol: :arrow: 'back to the shop - Rob


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## Anonymous (24 May 2008)

_____


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## jonbikebod (24 May 2008)

I am with Rob on this and welcome to the forum. 
I fully respect my friends who have decided kids are not for them.
For my self I have recently and unexpectedly gone deaf with the result my wife (29 years) is divorcing me, I am loosing my job and probably my home. In my darker moments it would be easy to think my life’s work has amounted to nothing; but then I think of both my kids at university and my heart swells with pride.
They are my legacy, not my hand skills – however good I get or the size and quality of my tool chest.
Jon.

Apologies to anyone who feels these comments inappropriate.


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## Joe (24 May 2008)

I'm genuinely sorry to hear of your misfortune Jon.

Back to my original point - you don't actually need to have any children of your own to understand the balance of firmness and gentleness described by Rob's metaphor (or is it a simile?). We all have the necessary imagination.

Joel


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## jonbikebod (24 May 2008)

Agreed Joel, we all have our preferred ways of absorbing and understanding information. The child metaphor will have broad appeal not least as were all were once children - however far now removed. Imagination can help bridge that gap. 
I entirely agree we all have that imagination; we couldn’t do what we do without it.
It is nice to be inspired by a child’s enthusiasm and imagination but this certainly isn’t the exclusive province of those who have kids.
Jon.


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