# City Link in liquidation



## RogerS (26 Dec 2014)

In case you've not heard they've gone into liquidation. Any parcels you have in transit (either way need to be collected by you). Just hope no-one is affected. Feel sorry for the employees and self-employed there.

Also posting under Off-Topic


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## lurker (26 Dec 2014)

Typical uk story
Set up by ex miners
Became successful due to looking after their customers
Bosses got greedy
Fell into the hands of asset strippers
Little people take the hit but big people loadsamoney


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## RogerS (26 Dec 2014)

lurker":myc3cleh said:


> Typical uk story
> Set up by ex miners
> Became successful due to looking after their customers
> Bosses got greedy
> ...



I'm not sure that you are right in this instance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Link_(company)


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## alan895 (26 Dec 2014)

I know of one person in my family who works there and only found out about this Xmas day evening, no hint of anything beforehand apparently.


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## Jacob (26 Dec 2014)

There's a blog here about it

Moulton moralising here


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## mseries (26 Dec 2014)

alan895":15xb8q2w said:


> I know of one person in my family who works there and only found out about this Xmas day evening, no hint of anything beforehand apparently.


that's how it is with redundancy caused by administration. Happened to me twice. One time I received a phone call from a colleague while I was driving home during a Friday off. They'd had the announcement at work. It sucks. The employees are liable to lose out on any owed pay, accrued holiday pay, owed expenses and redundancy payments. They will be able to claim from National Insurance though but that's not much. The rubbish thing about this CIty Link thing is that they told them on a public holiday which is followed by another public holiday, then a weekend so they'll not be able to sign on until Monday and lose four days benefit payments.


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## RogerS (26 Dec 2014)

Jacob":2vowm2k5 said:


> There's a blog here about it
> 
> Moulton moralising here



We'll keep the Ref Flag flying here. Do your research better. Stop bringing politics into it. Get off your soapbox.


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## shed9 (26 Dec 2014)

:roll: Again, any need for the backbiting?


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## DiscoStu (26 Dec 2014)

Why do people assume that bosses are happy about the situation? Bosses will also be without a job and actually a lot will have a lot of money tied up in companies etc. I can't think that most people want this to happen whether they are the boss or the cleaner. 

I know there have been cases in the past where people have bought companies and stripped them of their assets, sold of divisions and patents and then gone into administration, can't think that this has happened with citylink.


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## RogerS (26 Dec 2014)

shed9":2lmg9ko2 said:


> :roll: Again, any need for the backbiting?



No but then there is no need for his post in the first place. If anyone had posted a link to an article from the Daily Mail then Mr Butler would have been the first to jump in.


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## Jacob (26 Dec 2014)

More here.

Good job its not a vital public service gone private. Only a disaster to the employees - many of them on dubious sub contracts, self-employed, agency work, minimum wage etc.
This sort of scenario is where strong unions have most value. And strong governments of course - will they now nationalise city link, temporarily like the banks, so they can then flog them off again to their supporters?


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## n0legs (26 Dec 2014)

To be honest it's a shame. 
I've always had brilliant service from City Link, sending and receiving.


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## RogerS (26 Dec 2014)

From the forum rules

(6a.) Politics.
Over the years there has been one subject that has caused heated debates on the forums and that is politics. For that reason political discussion, in particular party political comments in a thread are not regarded as acceptable, please remember this is a woodworking forum after all. We do however understand that politics effects everyday life which is why some topics may be allowed depending on the circumstances.


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## shed9 (26 Dec 2014)

RogerS":hccs5o4d said:


> shed9":hccs5o4d said:
> 
> 
> > :roll: Again, any need for the backbiting?
> ...



Granted that posting a link to the Daily Mail is a bit pointless but not sure I see the argument that you jumped in because Jacob would have himself.


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## RogerS (26 Dec 2014)

shed9":8zv6i2zi said:


> RogerS":8zv6i2zi said:
> 
> 
> > shed9":8zv6i2zi said:
> ...



I refer the Honourable Gentleman to rule 6a :wink:  

Links to leftie or right wing papers that pontificate have no place here IMO.


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## themackay (26 Dec 2014)

A lot of companies come out of administration owned/run by the same people with their debts wiped out and the only ones to suffer are the small businesses that they owe money to.Will that happen here?


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## shed9 (26 Dec 2014)

RogerS":fi3awxrr said:


> I refer the Honourable Gentleman to rule 6a :wink:
> 
> Links to leftie or right wing papers that pontificate have no place here IMO.



I appreciate the rules but surely rule 2, in particular the first line of it should be adhered to as well, else the rules are moot.


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## lurker (26 Dec 2014)

RogerS":3wc9zul9 said:


> lurker":3wc9zul9 said:
> 
> 
> > Typical uk story
> ...



 
Seems I confused them with another company. Taken over by TNT apparently


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## Higon (26 Dec 2014)

Can't say I'm sorry to see them go but completely understand why they have. Of all the delivery couriers I deal with, they were by far the worst. It got so bad that when buying items from the internet, if the courier was CL then I'd buy from a seller who didn't use them if I couldn't arrange my own courier.


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## DiscoStu (26 Dec 2014)

I have to agree. Not used them directly but our supplier did and we had to ask them to use someone else has citylink were so poor at delivering when they should. I'd end up with engineers on site but not kit. I used to call them something other than city link! 

Not good for those employees though.


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## Teepeg (26 Dec 2014)

A couple of good lads i know are shocked over this, they had no idea ..


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2014)

shed9":21kdma59 said:


> RogerS":21kdma59 said:
> 
> 
> > I refer the Honourable Gentleman to rule 6a :wink:
> ...



Well, I went back to see exactly what I wrote in the first post that you took exception with. To be honest, I think you are over-reacting a little. Possibly the first sentence might have touched on being sarcastic but hardly enough to warrant the term 'backbiting'. 

When you've been on the forum a bit longer you will soon realise that Mr Butler likes nothing more than to trollpost and derail a thread. So far in this thread, he has trollposted three times and after a while it starts to get tedious. Reporting his posts is fruitless as you will discover that there is one set of forum rules for him and then the normal set of rules for the rest of us.


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2014)

Even the Mail thinks it stinks

A very large number of workers are on dubious terms of self employment and have to buy their own vans etc with very little in the way of secure contracts. These are the people likely to suffer most.


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## shed9 (27 Dec 2014)

RogerS":awuhmgg2 said:


> Well, I went back to see exactly what I wrote in the first post that you took exception with. To be honest, I think you are over-reacting a little. Possibly the first sentence might have touched on being sarcastic but hardly enough to warrant the term 'backbiting'.
> 
> When you've been on the forum a bit longer you will soon realise that Mr Butler likes nothing more than to trollpost and derail a thread. So far in this thread, he has trollposted three times and after a while it starts to get tedious. Reporting his posts is fruitless as you will discover that there is one set of forum rules for him and then the normal set of rules for the rest of us.



Asking if there is any merit to the unnecessary comments is not over reacting, just a question of which I don’t think has been answered. You first stated (albeit on another thread) that you wanted to protect people from his unsafe comments on working practice, now you want to protect them from his politics because he contravenes the rules, rules you now point out he doesn't seem to need to follow?

I've followed UKW for some time and only joined as and when it suited me. There is some good advice on here and generally a good bunch of people from all walks of life. If however you can't get on or disagree with someone surely the better option would be to keep it civil even the if the other party doesn't. We are all adults on here, we can all work it out when someone is trolling or trying to wind up others, you don't need to tell us or point it out every time - this just feeds it.

Don't get me wrong RogerS, I don't know you other than your posts but would like to think that if we met in the real world the conversation would be a positive one on woodworking. I'm not knocking you or trying to offend in any shape or form, however I think your valued input to UKW is being slightly diluted by your policing of Jacob.


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## Gary (27 Dec 2014)

Jacob":8eposztf said:


> Even the Mail thinks it stinks
> 
> A very large number of workers are on dubious terms of self employment and have to buy their own vans etc with very little in the way of secure contracts. These are the people likely to suffer most.




I don't think they'll suffer any more or less than the average employee there. The only ones who will be ok are those who've lined their pockets while they allowed the failing business model to continue.


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## mseries (27 Dec 2014)

Gary":2qsj6rjn said:


> Jacob":2qsj6rjn said:
> 
> 
> > Even the Mail thinks it stinks
> ...


Yes. Employees are towards the end of the list to be paid what they are owed when their employer goes into administration. From my own experience, it's likely that the Administrator can't recover enough money to be able to pay the employees. Maybe those self employed people can't make the same claims from National Insurance that ex-employees can.


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## DiscoStu (27 Dec 2014)

HMRC is always first in line for any monies owed.


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## Stu_2 (27 Dec 2014)

I don't think HMRC now come above employees on PAYE. That's not the case for contractors, though. 

I recently had to deal with recovering assets from a company in administration, and KPMG were explaining things have changed a bit now.

Poor old contractors are just another creditor, so they'll struggle to recover anything in the pound.


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2014)

I don't think anyone has made any money as they were losing £4 million a month and if they hadn't pulled the plug then they would have been trading insolvent


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2014)

Shed9 you make a fair point.


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## doctor Bob (27 Dec 2014)

RogerS":2yf08m5a said:


> When you've been on the forum a bit longer you will soon realise that Mr Butler and I like nothing more than to trollpost and derail a thread and bicker with one another and promise to block each other and insult each other and purposefully hunt out each others posts so we can post the exact opposite, and drag a dead thread on for another couple of weeks.



I couldn't agree more.


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## Woodmonkey (27 Dec 2014)

doctor Bob":3uihz7sr said:


> RogerS":3uihz7sr said:
> 
> 
> > When you've been on the forum a bit longer you will soon realise that Mr Butler and I like nothing more than to trollpost and derail a thread and bicker with one another and promise to block each other and insult each other and purposefully hunt out each others posts so we can post the exact opposite, and drag a dead thread on for another couple of weeks.
> ...



:lol: =D>


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2014)

doctor Bob":bgiddttr said:


> RogerS":bgiddttr said:
> 
> 
> > When you've been on the forum a bit longer you will soon realise that Mr Butler and I like nothing more than to trollpost and derail a thread and bicker with one another and promise to block each other and insult each other and purposefully hunt out each others posts so we can post the exact opposite, and drag a dead thread on for another couple of weeks.
> ...



 LOL ...very creative, Bob !! =D>


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2014)

Mr Butler? Is it like Rumpelstiltskin - you get my name right and I fly out of the window on a ladle? Or stamp myself into the ground (depends which version).


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## Higon (28 Dec 2014)

Gary":2g6p780h said:


> Jacob":2g6p780h said:
> 
> 
> > Even the Mail thinks it stinks
> ...





it would appear, https://www.trustpilot.co.uk/review/www.citylink.com the organisational failings were to be found elsewhere.


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## acewoodturner (28 Dec 2014)

I have used City Link for over 10 years and have an account with them. I only used to send about 6 parcels or so a year with them but never had a problem with them. I have a business workshop and the big unit opposite me have deliveries and pickups from all the major couriers every day. I haver never had a parcel go missing yet. Their local depot is only a mile away so anything that I needed to send I used to drop off with them. Looks like I am one of the few who will miss them. Recently APC opened a depot about 100 yards away so that looks like who will be getting my business from now on. 
Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about APC?

Mike


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## Gary (28 Dec 2014)

Higon":37dpv1h5 said:


> Gary":37dpv1h5 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":37dpv1h5 said:
> ...




Well they weren't without paid management while the operated like a shower of dung.


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## Eric The Viking (29 Dec 2014)

My experience with CityLink was horrible. In the late 1990s it got so bad I even contacted the marketing manager of a large company I used to buy from, asking her to offer customers a choice. I was told that was impossible, and I largely stopped doing business with them.

I don't know why it had the corporate culture it had, but I'm not at all surprised it's gone. Obviously I feel sad for the staff (been made redundant myself, at Christmas, too), but they bear responsibility too: 

I've wasted hours hanging around their Bristol depot waiting for rude and bored staff to do their jobs badly and slowly find deliveries I should have had, but didn't. I've had flat lies told about deliveries ("There was nobody in."). I've had fragile items broken, and so on.

For much of this, you cannot blame management, except insofar as they didn't sack the people directly responsible.

In my view the corporate culture is jointly the responsibility of management AND workforce. Citylink's big mistake was that it thought the people paying it were its crucial customers - they weren't. 

The people receiving deliveries were far more important, as they ultimately controlled its fate.

Bluntly, I'm surprised it's lasted this long. There was a good interview on this morning's Today programme with the CEO of the investment company who tried, unsuccessfully, to bail Citylink out and turn the business around. 

The interviewer tried very hard to get mud to stick along the lines of 'ruthless capitalist pig', but the answers given were simple honest and open. They'd tried for a long time to obtain more finance, but none was found; he'd lost several million personally; the process had to happen as it did, as to knowingly continue trading would have been a criminal offence. It's no doubt on iPlayer - worth a listen.

It wasn't actually said, but 'too little too late' seems to have been why the rescue failed. Even though I've been on the receiving end in the past, I found myself more in sympathy with the investors than the company.

I'm sure good people have lost their jobs through this - it's sad but inevitable. 

But the writing was on the wall years ago.


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## DiscoStu (30 Dec 2014)

I agree with that. I do find it incredibly frustrating when people imply that senior management want these things to happen. I don't know any directors of businesses who would be happy for them to fail. They loose out far more from a failing business than a successful one. I also don't know of any senior staff who don't care about their employees. Directors realise that staff need to be happy to be motivated and they need to be motivated to be productive. It's not rocket science. A lot of employees only see motivation in their salary and they don't tend to see income vs expenditure so they don't see the hard decisions that often have to be taken for the business as a whole.


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## Baldhead (30 Dec 2014)

DiscoStu":14u1g5y2 said:


> I also don't know of any senior staff who don't care about their employees. Directors realise that staff need to be happy to be motivated and they need to be motivated to be productive. It's not rocket science.


That made me laugh, you obviously didn't know the MD or the only director of the company I worked for in my first job.

Baldhead


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## bugbear (31 Dec 2014)

Baldhead":2dtelbqc said:


> DiscoStu":2dtelbqc said:
> 
> 
> > I also don't know of any senior staff who don't care about their employees. Directors realise that staff need to be happy to be motivated and they need to be motivated to be productive. It's not rocket science.
> ...



Let alone the practices of external venture capital!

BugBear


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2014)

DiscoStu":210ejdx7 said:


> I...I also don't know of any senior staff who don't care about their employees. Directors realise that staff need to be happy to be motivated and they need to be motivated to be productive. It's not rocket science.


Some do, many don't and good working relationships is a mystery to them. I'd guess Citylink were rubbish at it and the uncooperative attitudes described above would be the outcome of general disgruntlement originating from bad management above.


> A lot of employees only see motivation in their salary and they don't tend to see income vs expenditure so they don't see the hard decisions that often have to be taken for the business as a whole.


Nearly all employees are more concerned about the quality of their working life rather than the wages - unless the wages are so low that it becomes the main issue. Similarly they are interested in the company and it's future, especially if they are given any opportunity to be involved, other than as wage slaves.


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## Eric The Viking (31 Dec 2014)

Jacob":24ye2xxd said:


> ... the uncooperative attitudes described above would be the outcome of general disgruntlement originating from bad management above.



Sorry - can't let that one go by. 

_Any_ sort of attitude comes from the individual with the attitude, good or bad. 

And anyway, it's not an attitude towards the management I objected to, but the attitude towards the customers.

In contrast, I know my local Royal Mail parcels chap quite well now. His attitude to me has always been excellent. His attitude to (or at least his view of) Royal Mail management is a bit different!

I agree that good leadership builds a good corporate culture, but it's a cop out to say managers are responsible for the attitude of every member of staff.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2014)

Eric The Viking":11obtme2 said:


> ..
> I agree that good leadership builds a good corporate culture, but it's a cop out to say managers are responsible for the attitude of every member of staff.


Agree. There's always a few but if a lot of members of staff have a bad attitude it'll be a management problem.

I heard Moulton on the radio and yes he did sound reasonable etc etc but from the reports of his views he clearly has a bad attitude towards the workers. He may be a successful businessman but he probably would be even more successful if he wasn't such an twerp in my opinion..


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## nanscombe (31 Dec 2014)

I wonder if the treatment that the drivers get from the people they are delivering to might affect their attitude as well.


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## Gary (31 Dec 2014)

nanscombe":2r9qw907 said:


> I wonder if the treatment that the drivers get from the people they are delivering to might affect their attitude as well.




If they were professional it wouldn't.


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## nanscombe (31 Dec 2014)

Given what some people seem to think of couriers I imagine it could be a thankless task, especially if the people they are delivering to treat them all alike.


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## Higon (5 Jan 2015)

nanscombe":1sv7h2is said:


> I wonder if the treatment that the drivers get from the people they are delivering to might affect their attitude as well.



Very unlikely, the drivers who were meant to deliver to me I never saw. After the third time of having to go to the depot (a 40 mile round trip) to collect the parcel that was meant to be delivered to my door I started buying from sellers who didn't use them. But had I actually met one, there was always the thought of the next parcel going missing too, that prevented a full and frank exchange of views.

Like wise to Eric, my Royal Mail delivery chap is brilliant. knows all the dogs by name, goes out of his way to be helpful, if there's no answer at the door he'll come down to the workshop and find me. His predecessor was the same. 

There was a courier company who were based on four canonical pillars; customer courtesy, reliability, round the clock service and low rates. They started with a loan to buy 6 bicycles. They are now the preferred courier for 55% of all internet purchases, so its not that difficult! I find it amazing, the different outcomes from something as simple as customer courtesy and the effect to the viability of a company.


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## MIGNAL (5 Jan 2015)

My one experience with CityLink was poor. They didn't turn up to collect on the stated day, they then failed to deliver on the stated day. My valuable parcel then sat in a warehouse over the weekend. It was delivered on the Monday, to the 
correct street but the wrong house number! I really don't know how one can get things so wrong, especially when I stick 3 seperate printed address labels onto the box. Fortunately the intended recipient noticed a rather large parcel was being delivered to the house across the road. . . and put two and two together! Perhaps he knew something about Citylink that I didn't!


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