# Spear & Jackson's "Spearior 52"?



## J_SAMa (22 Jun 2013)

I found this on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14-Brass-back ... 56578478f9
It looks relatively new. One of the pictures show that it's stamped "Spearior 52". What does that mean? Also around what period of time was this produced? the handle seems to suggest it's post-WWII? Is it worth buying at all?

Also this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-tenon ... 19de0496dc
I've never heard of "bowden" before. Seller says it's manufactured by "W.A.Tyzack". I've heard of "William Tyzack" and "Joseph Tyzack" but never "W.A.Tyzack". How are they all associated?

Sam


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## Jacob (22 Jun 2013)

The S&J is top notch. I've got one, they are very good. Go for it.

The other looks a bit old and tatty, Steel backed is OK but not fashionable. I wouldn't bother, there'll be better ones along in no time! Also it's been cleaned up and sharpened - something I would avoid, I'd rather do it myself and see the original condition first.
Or to put it another way - if it was a car boot I'd probably not touch it at £1. I'd buy a bacon cob instead. Or some red cabbage seedlings.


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## G S Haydon (22 Jun 2013)

Hi J-Sam

I would like to think the "Spearior" is a melding of "Spear & Jackson" & "Superior". Ah marketing  

Both look fine, the S&J has a less inviting handle than the Tyzak but it does have a nice shiny brass back that add a bit more weight. I don't think you would go wrong with either of them. Just for the shape of the handle I would be tempted by the Tyzak. 

If you don't like them, no stress, right back on the bay.


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## J_SAMa (22 Jun 2013)

Just lost the bidding on the S&J saw.
What about this one?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14-Steel-back ... 51ae855397
Never heard of Ibbotson before and google can't help me either

Sam


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## G S Haydon (22 Jun 2013)

Hi J-Sama

I feel your pain. I missed a near perfect wooden Jack plane on ebay last night. It went for 99p .

This saw is also good, as Jacob pointed out a brass backed saw is nicer although perhaps not essential. If only it would stay at 99p.


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## MIGNAL (22 Jun 2013)

G S Haydon":132vs0w0 said:


> Hi J-Sama
> 
> I feel your pain. I missed *a near perfect wooden Jack plane on ebay last night. It went for 99p * .
> 
> This saw is also good, as Jacob pointed out a brass backed saw is nicer although perhaps not essential. If only it would stay at 99p.



Fool!!! Should have told me about it. 
Steel back are perfectly fine. I have a veritas which is some sort of powdered steel in plastic. . . something like that. Anyway, most of the saw is in the sharpening. Just make sure the plate is straight, no missing teeth and not too badly pitted. Fancy nicely cut handles are a bonus, usually found on the older saws.


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## G S Haydon (22 Jun 2013)

Mignal I am still really [email protected]?d about it :evil: 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ward-payne-wo ... true&rt=nc

Most others are £20+ delivery for very average example.


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## Jacob (22 Jun 2013)

J_SAMa":1c2bf8mq said:


> Just lost the bidding on the S&J saw.
> What about this one?
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14-Steel-back ... 51ae855397
> Never heard of Ibbotson before and google can't help me either
> ...


Looks OK to me. 
NB If you post them up here you might just be attracting more bids - I put £19 on the S&J! Keep them to yourself and show us after the sale, perhaps.
There isn't that much difference between the brands (unless you are a collector) so you want to watch out for things like the amount of blade left (OK on this one , better on the S&J that went).


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## J_SAMa (23 Jun 2013)

Jacob":22h1nf68 said:


> Looks OK to me.
> NB If you post them up here you might just be attracting more bids - I put £19 on the S&J! Keep them to yourself and show us after the sale, perhaps.
> There isn't that much difference between the brands (unless you are a collector) so you want to watch out for things like the amount of blade left (OK on this one , better on the S&J that went).



The reason I'm posting here is I don't want to risk buying bad tools. Any criteria for me to quickly judge if a tenon saw is good? Actually, how do I *date* a saw? If I'm not mistaken then saws are just like planes, the later they are the worse they get (unless they are modern "premium" brands)...

Sam


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## dm65 (23 Jun 2013)

J_SAMa":3qky79vv said:


> If I'm not mistaken then saws are just like planes, the later they are the worse they get (unless they are modern "premium" brands)...


Its all relative Sam, you can easily buy old rubbish as well so you do right to ask

What we find now on ebay etc for a couple of pounds now used to cost at least a weeks wages back when they were new (the good stuff anyway)

Like for like, we'd be buying Clifton or Lie Nielson planes and these could be sold on holobay in 50 years time


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## G S Haydon (23 Jun 2013)

+1 dm65,

J_SAMa Perhaps PM forum members in the future if there is the risk of having the rug pulled from under you. Just so you know I'm not after a tenon saw ;-)


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2013)

J_SAMa":3e7u28uk said:


> .....
> The reason I'm posting here is I don't want to risk buying bad tools. Any criteria for me to quickly judge if a tenon saw is good? Actually, how do I *date* a saw? If I'm not mistaken then saws are just like planes, the later they are the worse they get (unless they are modern "premium" brands)...
> 
> Sam


Saws aren't like planes, they are much simpler. The main difference old/new is in the handles. Old ones are much nicer, curly and decorative with flush nuts/bolt heads. Some modern ones are hideous such as the Atkinson Walker purple plank handled one I bought some time back!
I'd ignore older ones - there is a risk that the blades are bent, rust etc. Maybe just set a simple target - another S&J like the one you missed. One of each, 10", 12", 14", make sure there is plenty of blade left and they aren't too rusty. They have modern handles but are perfectly functional. Sometimes very cheap - take the risk, if it's not good it'll do for sharpening practice.

PS the biggest difference between any two similar saws will be down to whoever used/sharpened it last. Very useful (essential) to do your own (eventually) and this is well covered by Sellers book which is another good reason for buying it. I'm not promoting it BTW - nothing in it for me!


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## woodbrains (23 Jun 2013)

G S Haydon":iw6cc18k said:


> +1 dm65,
> 
> J_SAMa Perhaps PM forum members in the future if there is the risk of having the rug pulled from under you. Just so you know I'm not after a tenon saw ;-)



Hello,

I bought the Spear and Jackson saw we're talking about. Had been quietly watching it for days. And now I find Jacob was biding against me! For Pete's sake keep e bay to yourself or you and anyone else will be thwarted or have to pay over the odds.

I understand that you do not want to waste money on poor tools, but a generalised question usually generates better info. If you ask is Spear and Jackson a good brand, you will likely get dozens of answers about dates and when they were best and how to spot them. If you just show piccies of a saw, we are no wiser than you. It might have a bent plate that is not revealed on the photo or have been sharpened so badly it will take a week at the saw doctors to put right, if you are not comfortable doing it yourself. There is always a certain amount of risk with 2nd hand tools. This cuts both ways however (no pun here) and quite often a real unexpected gem can turn up to mitigate the odd basket case you might come across. If you want risk free, superb tools every time you buy the you will have to shell out on some of the better brands of new products. You wont regret that, either, as they will often get you to work with little or no fuss straight away and last a lifetime. If you want the fun of the auction and the anticipation of what will come in the post and don't mind getting a few rejects from which to learn from time to time, then do the auctions. There are no guarantees for any of us, though. And don't get upset when you are outbid, there will always be another saw, and another.... You will end up with too many!

Mike.


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## G S Haydon (23 Jun 2013)

_" nothing in it for me!"_

Worth the £30 quid then


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## J_SAMa (23 Jun 2013)

Is this kind of "rust" easy to remove? Does it need to be removed at all?

Sam


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## dm65 (23 Jun 2013)

Rust can be removed many ways, elbow grease and wirewool, citric acid or even electrolitics

Bit of a rub may be enough if you're more for function over form, but those sides need to be smooth and slick so they don't cause binding which interferes with the cut

I feel some comment on those teeth is imminent


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2013)

J_SAMa":1dfyfn8e said:


> .....
> Is this kind of "rust" easy to remove? Does it need to be removed at all?
> 
> Sam


No need to remove it. If the saw is sharp and used it smooths itself in no time and won't bind at all. I always paint rusty old tools with linseed (half n half with turps) and just forget about them after that.
Bad pitting can be a prob as it may result in teeth snapping off when they are being set, but even this can be endured, within reason, if you are desperate!


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## AndyT (23 Jun 2013)

That rust does not look much at all from the photo and should be easy to remove with wet and dry paper - but if the set is fairly full it may not be a problem at all. It may help to run a candle along the saw, like you do with a plane.

As for the Tyzacks, they seem to be one of the best-researched toolmaking families. You'll find the answer to your question about WA Tyzack if you go to http://www.tyzack.net and download "The Book" - chapter 16.


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## JohnPW (23 Jun 2013)

Spear and Jackson saws have quite ugly blocky handles, IMO. I think only the reallly old ones (19th C) have the curvy sculpted type. That's why I think they tend to go for a lower price, which is good if you just want one to use. But if you're going to get a tool, you might as well get one that also looks nice, but you can't always have it all.

The S&J seller in the OP gets high prices because they have good photos and descriptions, and they post worldwide, and they don't sell junk. If you don't want to pay the high prices, you will need to take a chance on auction with poor photos and descriptions, which is what most auctions have. 



G S Haydon":35t9o4o7 said:


> Mignal I am still really [email protected]?d about it :evil:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ward-payne-wo ... true&rt=nc
> 
> Most others are £20+ delivery for very average example.



The final price was 99p but it doesn't mean you could've got it for £1.04 or some other low price. The winning bidder could have bid £10, £20 or any other amount. It's the second highest bidder that decides the final price, not the highest bidder. When you look at finished auctions, it's easy to think "what, that only went for £10!!??". But in actual fact, all you know is the second highest bidder made a bid of £9.50.


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2013)

JohnPW":1vnllrzf said:


> Spear and Jackson saws have quite ugly blocky handles, IMO. I think only the reallly old ones (19th C) have the curvy sculpted type. ...


And there are in betweenieslike this one which has a modern handle but hasn't quite lost all the quirks and curves. You could always shape one a bit more ,if you really wanted to.


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## woodbrains (23 Jun 2013)

Hello,

The handles on the Spearior saws are not as fancy as the best 19th century saws, but, they are not at all bad. They have a modern shape, which is still comfortable and correctly positioned. The rather streamlined shape means that there is little material underneath, which means deep sawing is possible with the full length of the blade, and lots of sharpenings are possible without losing to much depth of cut. They even had a dowel running through the grip, to prevent the short grain from breaking. Unfortunately, the one in the OP might be a late model when the dowel was omitted, just before the saws had the maroon coloured stain applied in the later guise. The blades are still good though. I fancy when I get the one in question, the handle will sand and oil up like new and the blade will sharpen a treat. I think it will be a very nice saw. I might even run a dowel through the handle, if it doesn't have one already and the mood takes me.

Mike.


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## G S Haydon (23 Jun 2013)

_"The final price was 99p but it doesn't mean you could've got it for £1.04 or some other low price. The winning bidder could have bid £10, £20 or any other amount. It's the second highest bidder that decides the final price, not the highest bidder. When you look at finished auctions, it's easy to think "what, that only went for £10!!??". But in actual fact, all you know is the second highest bidder made a bid of £9.50"
_

Thanks for easing the pain


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## bugbear (24 Jun 2013)

J_SAMa":3l45hq8o said:


> Is this kind of "rust" easy to remove? Does it need to be removed at all?
> 
> Sam



Unless you *like* friction when sawing, I'd target smooth (at least) and shiny (if possible).

Shiny also allows you to exploit the reflection trick for quick and accurate 90 degree sawing.

http://blog.lostartpress.com/2013/05/13 ... in-sawing/

BugBear


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## Jacob (24 Jun 2013)

bugbear":1kbtw6hz said:


> ......
> Unless you *like* friction when sawing, I'd target smooth (at least) and shiny (if possible).


In practice it doesn't seem to matter. It shouldn't matter anyway - if there is set and a straight cut the blade barely touches the sides and the first few passes will remove any crustiness.


> Shiny also allows you to exploit the reflection trick for quick and accurate 90 degree sawing.


Somewhat mythical. Few saws are shiny enough and anyway it doesn't work! Try it and see for yourself.


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## bugbear (24 Jun 2013)

Jacob":3v8ejpa4 said:


> bugbear":3v8ejpa4 said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



I find SiC abrasives much more effective than timber as a rust remover. I guess it's a personal
preference, but I'd rather use proper abrasives to get the restoration done in the most direct and
effective way, than hope that months or years of use will "just happen" to do the job for me.

BugBear


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## Jacob (24 Jun 2013)

bugbear":3owmxr95 said:


> Jacob":3owmxr95 said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":3owmxr95 said:
> ...


Yes if you want shine, though it's a bit destructive. I 'd just do wire wool and oil myself. Neither if you just want low friction.


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## woodbrains (24 Jun 2013)

Jacob":puclfzqv said:


> Shiny also allows you to exploit the reflection trick for quick and accurate 90 degree sawing. Somewhat mythical. Few saws are shiny enough and anyway it doesn't work! Try it and see for yourself.



Hello,

Like most things that Jacob thinks mythical, this absolutely does work. How can it not? Though if you've never bothered to clean your saw plate shinier than the bottom of an oven, you might think it a myth.

Mike.


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## Jacob (24 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":lnjckp9d said:


> Jacob":lnjckp9d said:
> 
> 
> > Shiny also allows you to exploit the reflection trick for quick and accurate 90 degree sawing. Somewhat mythical. Few saws are shiny enough and anyway it doesn't work! Try it and see for yourself.
> ...


Have you tried it? Do you do it as a matter of course? How long do you spend polishing your saws?
If you try it for yourself you will find that it sort of works but is easy to get wrong as a tilted saw which is also off square can produce the straight line from some points of view but not others, and an un-backed handsaw makes it more difficult by having a tendency to bend. Too many variables.
Try to saw a series of straight lines (perpendicular and across) with only a shiny saw as a guide.


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## Sgian Dubh (24 Jun 2013)

I'm kind of with Jacob on this one. I only have one saw, a backsaw that has a quite shiny plate; it's my Independence dovetail saw, but even though it is reasonably shiny it's not shiny enough to do the reflection trick. I have no doubts that it is a helpful technique, if you've got a saw with a very shiny plate, but I can't ever recall anyone using it in any of the workshops I've worked in during my years in the business. 

However, I suspect that may be in part influenced by my recollection which is that a really shiny plated panel saw or backsaw in a furniture maker's toolbox is a pretty rare thing -- clean and in pretty good order in many cases, but not really shiny, and mixed in with these nice clean saws there's usually some saws that have obviously developed some rust at some point which has been cleaned off -- I've got a few of those I must admit, with no shine at all. Slainte.


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## Jacob (24 Jun 2013)

TBH I haven't actually bothered to try it with a saw - it'd take all day to polish one up enough. Even new ones aren't that shiny. But I have tried it with a bit of mirror glass mimicking a saw action. Lining up the reflected line is quite difficult and you can't watch the cut itself at the same time. Much easier to follow pencil line and see what the saw is doing directly. You've got to put one across the top so it's just laziness leaving them off the front and back edges!


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## G S Haydon (24 Jun 2013)

Hello J_SAMa

Regarding the rust, it does not look too bad. A light rub with a fine abrasive and a buff with some 3 in 1 should be fine. Most of our old saws in the workshop have a dark patina which is smooth. Our old tenon saw (the only one of the old saws that gets used) is a prime example and works well on general joinery . If your work falls under this bracket then it should be fine.

If your work is of a fine cabinet nature you might need to do some more work but I'm not a fine cabinet maker so I could not advise you.

Regarding a shiny saw plate, I have have 1 x new dovetail saw and a keep the plate shiny and clean with a light buff with 3 in 1 after use. I have 2 other new to me (unused second hand) on the way and I will keep them to the same standard as the dovetail saw. This is for my private tool collection only. If it was for my day job I would pick up a new hardpoint saw as I needed it (tenon saw aside)

I'm not sure the reflection trick is for me, give it a try and see what you think.


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## Jacob (24 Jun 2013)

G S Haydon":3bup55tz said:


> ..... Most of our old saws in the workshop have a dark patina which is smooth. .......


Mine too. Greyish and blotchy. I imagine that I can see my reflection in them but then my complexion is greyish and blotchy anyway.


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## J_SAMa (24 Jun 2013)

bugbear":2irxeqn2 said:


> J_SAMa":2irxeqn2 said:
> 
> 
> > Is this kind of "rust" easy to remove? Does it need to be removed at all?
> ...



What makes a saw shiny and what make it low-friction? It seems that new saws with machine marks are although not shiny, but still low-friction...

Sam


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## G S Haydon (24 Jun 2013)

Jacob":2ioirag7 said:


> G S Haydon":2ioirag7 said:
> 
> 
> > ..... Most of our old saws in the workshop have a dark patina which is smooth. .......
> ...



No darker than that, almost black, but smooth 8) . Many years/generations of work on oak and the like I would assume. No chance of a reflection. Just so I can be shot down in flames I think old saws are hard to shine because of the steel used? Always ends up greyish rather than mirror?


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## Jacob (24 Jun 2013)

J_SAMa":chbbdvu2 said:


> ........
> 
> What makes a saw shiny and what make it low-friction? It seems that new saws with machine marks are although not shiny, but still low-friction...
> 
> Sam


Low friction is achieved by "taking the sharpness off"
flattening-polishing-and-friction-t68962.html 
not necessarily by polishing to mirror finish


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## woodbrains (24 Jun 2013)

Jacob":5n76brya said:


> woodbrains":5n76brya said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":5n76brya said:
> ...


O

Hello,

Have never polished a saw to a shine, but do remove rust on old ones with SiC paper. As far as the reflection trick, I was only doing it the other day with a cheap hard point tenon saw, reserved for cutting rubbish. It is surprising how un-Shiny the saw can be for it to work, as long as it is bright steel, not rust pitted and tarnished, though.

It doesn't surprise me that Jacob hasn't actually tried it himself but finds himself qualified to give his 'expert?' Judgement.

My good saws are Pax rip dovetail, Atkinson walker tenons with hand made handles. and Roberts and Lee crosscut dovetail. Some have still got a near mirror polish from new and all reflect more than enough to show a reflection of the wood.anyone who chucks their saws in a toolbox should have them ceremonially removed and confiscated, until they realise that good tools should be treated with more respect; shiny saw plates being the least of their worries. Do these people like lost teeth and bent plates.
Of course I always mark lines on my work, but the reflection gives a good datum for vertical as you make the cut. You don't even think about it, but you can make micro corrections as you go to stay straight and perpendicular.

Mike.


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## Jacob (24 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":1rxhyt96 said:


> ........
> It doesn't surprise me that Jacob hasn't actually tried it himself but finds himself qualified to give his 'expert?' Judgement


.I'm as entitled as you are to make wild hypothetical guesses! I have tried it experimentally with a mirror.


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## G S Haydon (24 Jun 2013)

How was the mirror filed, rip or cross cut


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## woodbrains (24 Jun 2013)

Hello,

A mirror only has one reflective side, whereas a bright saw plate has two. It is important when 'experimenting' to replicate the conditions or the result will be spurious.

Reflection on two sides means it is impossible not to have the saw square and vertical, there is only one outcome which can satisfy the conditions.

Mike.


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## dm65 (24 Jun 2013)

G S Haydon":3j6awqfx said:


> How was the mirror filed, rip or cross cut


Nice one =D>


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## Jacob (25 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":7neqet62 said:


> Hello,
> 
> A mirror only has one reflective side, whereas a bright saw plate has two. It is important when 'experimenting' to replicate the conditions or the result will be spurious.
> 
> ...


How do you move your head to see both sides whilst still sawing in a straight line without wobbling? Eyes on stalks? At least I experimented, but you clearly haven't!

PS and to watch the cut itself you would need a third eye, not moving, whilst you wave the other two around on their stalks.


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## G S Haydon (25 Jun 2013)

Depends on the size of the saw Jacob and how the work is clamped. On my small dovetail saw I can see all around with small movements and you can see reflection just by tilting your head slightly, not that I'm using the reflection. http://pinterest.com/pin/519532506983888175/ I don't think the the idea is to lower yourself to observe or move in an overly crazy way.
Also, using a mirror is not an accurate way to test a theory.
I never learnt with a saw shiny enough for it to become part of what I do, however for those who have a shiny saw plate perhaps it does help.


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## AndyT (25 Jun 2013)

While we are all lurching along off topic, I'll just add that I thought the real point of occasionally using the reflection on a saw as an aid is not for 90 degree cuts - they are pretty much automatic after a bit of experience - but for 45 degree cuts. It's much easier to judge an angled cut plus its reflection and see if they make 90 degrees than it is to eyeball a 45 degree line on its own. (This is similar to the way you can mitre cut the ends of banding or stringing by looking at its reflection on the flat side of the chisel.)


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## woodbrains (25 Jun 2013)

Jacob":2gaxwb6n said:


> How do you move your head to see both sides whilst still sawing in a straight line without wobbling? Eyes on stalks? At least I experimented, but you clearly haven't!
> 
> PS and to watch the cut itself you would need a third eye, not moving, whilst you wave the other two around on their stalks.




I have binocular vision.

Mike.


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## Jacob (25 Jun 2013)

Here's a trad way of polishing an old rusty saw i.e by using it







Not totally surprising but this does bring up a shine, albeit remaining dark verging on black, and there is very little friction after a bit of use, with no intervention from a mad old charlady with sheets of abrasive and tins of Brasso






But what did surprise me is that even in this condition you can get a reflection











But I still don't think it's of any use!

Here's another old rip saw being polished - chap next door brought round this 18" mahogany board and wanted it splitting. Started it off over the TS so just had to saw out the middle 12"






I have to say I have an aversion to shining up these old tools with SiC paper - so destructive and so pointless. Vandalism!
It's the toolie equivalent of caustic soda dipping joinery - gets rid of the paint/varnish but irredeemably spoils the object.


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## G S Haydon (25 Jun 2013)

Jacob 

That's a real beauty! I took the time to read some of your older posts yesterday evening (I know, I need to get out more) and one thing struck me. Would I be right in assuming you would call yourself a "Joiner" and a good one from what I can see. That's not a put down, I am and I love it! I think _nearly_ every post you put out there is spot on from a joiners perspective. 
The spoke shave post example was a good one, your Chinese brand shave was working well on your redwood stair string (I guess that's what it is). 
Would you ever concede that if the work was much finer a better quality tool could be called for? For instance if instead of a stair string you were making one of these http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/bespo ... niture.htm leaving aside if you like the design or if you would like to make it.
I often feel concerned that your are so full on with your opinions that a really good message get's lost. I think your message is reflective of the woodworker you are and you equip yourself appropriately for your work. If you are a shuttering carpenter it's unlikely you would want a paring chisel and an infill plane and if you were a pattern maker a lump hammer and a hardpoint saw might not be quite the ticket.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but I often feel a good point is often lost by trying to push a certain type of tool, in that respect you seem no different than the "gurus" and the "novelty plane makers" you hate. That's just the vibe i got from the old posts.
Your chisel preparation is perfectly fine for a joiner but would you expect a pattern maker to do the same?
Please feel free to throw this back in my face as I can appreciate it's not really any business of mine. I just worry that a skilled joiners valued opinion can sometimes be lost in the haze of combat.


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## Jacob (26 Jun 2013)

G S Haydon":2e2zcaka said:


> .That's a real beauty!


Two actually. One panel saw and one rip saw. £13 the pair on ebay!


> ....
> Would you ever concede that if the work was much finer a better quality tool could be called for? For instance if instead of a stair string you were making one of these http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/bespo ... niture.htm ......


Not too fond of sci-fi gothic but yes a good deal of skill is required without a doubt - not least the which/what/how with the tools. 
I think there is a big divide here:
On the one hand the toolies would burble on about expensive spokeshaves, scraper planes, steel, bevels, exotic grains etc etc. On the other hand a practical person faced with the challenge of making one of these might just cut the cackle and go straight for sanding disc on a drill, surform rasp etc with the most sophisticated tool being perhaps a card scraper. All to be finished with ROS or by hand with sand paper and cork blocks.
From what I recall of David Savage's tool comments in the past (not accessible now unless you pay for them) he was on the side of the practical maker and not a toolie at all. I might be wrong - there's money in tools and no profit in telling someone not to buy something!


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## MIGNAL (26 Jun 2013)

That chair has a severe case of Rickets. Needs more Calcium not A2 or PMV-11.


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## G S Haydon (26 Jun 2013)

Thanks Jacob, 

I'm glad there has been no offense taken. Mr savages tool advice is still free to view online http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/woodworking_tools.htm and he seems to prefer highly tuned tools, flat chisels etc. He also seems to pull no punches while reviewing the stanley sweetheart plane http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/news/ ... l-article/
His review is an example. I would first look at the type of woodworker he is and what he makes before taking the advice on a purchase. And BTW I have come to really dislike the term "Woodworker" it is so generic. I am a Joiner. My advice should or views should be taken as such.


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## woodbrains (26 Jun 2013)

Hello.

David Savage's wobbly furniture leaves me cold; I suppose that is a taste thing. But that said, although surforms will shape timber and bobbin sanders ROS etc, they do not allow you to see or feel what is going on. There is a certain sensitivity that is important when doing this sort of work. The grain graphic for instance is worked with, not ignored. Wood is not a nondescript material like plastic. So a well tuned spoke shave is as efficient at wood removal as a rasp and allows you to see what you are doing, not rough things up and obscure the view. Also, sanders are dusty and noisy and inefficient at wood removal. Tuned planes and shaves do things quicker, quieter and allow you to be a more sensitive craftsman.

I actually like the expression 'woodworker' as other things can just be pompous. There is greatness in good joinery as pattern making and fine furniture. And to some extent, we all cross over from one to another from time to time. A prime tool, well set up for furniture making will work for any task to which it is set, but not necessarily the other way round. So if asked how to do something to get a plane working, the default mode is to set it up for the best possible circumstance. Especially since it is easy. Often it is easier to do things properly than to try to employ various dodges and cheats. A minute might be saved by not sharpening to that next finest grit, but you might spend an extra 10 with sandpaper correcting the poorer finish. Expedients will be learned by the user later as fits. Sam Maloof always referred to himself , simply as 'woodworker'.

Mike.


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## G S Haydon (26 Jun 2013)

Mike,

I'm with you on the furniture. I marvel at it's technical nature and have the greatest respect for the skills and flair involved but it's not for me. Perhaps the term "Woodworker" is more of an issue on this forum and more accurately the hand tool forum. The wide range of perspectives from different branches of woodworking could, I feel at times make it a confusing place. 

I would also agree with you to a point on tool set up and this is where those branches cause conflict. Put simply it has not been necessary for me to flatten a chisel or tune up a plane as a bench joiner. This has not been to the detriment of my joinery work. It might smack of ignorance but flattening chisels or a hand plane tune up have never been on my radar. With tools in and out of the workshop in and out of a tool box preserving them in any kind of highly tuned fashion would be hard going.
That said I can appreciate a highly tuned tool is required for fine accurate work, that's why I took the time to tune up my Record #4 which will be safely stored in my tool chest for my private, personal projects.
It's all about context that's why here at least the label of "woodworker" can be confusing.


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## Jacob (26 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":1z5ffiig said:


> ...... I suppose that is a taste thing. But that said, although surforms will shape timber and bobbin sanders ROS etc, they do not allow you to see or feel what is going on. There is a certain sensitivity that is important when doing this sort of work. The grain graphic for instance is worked with, not ignored. Wood is not a nondescript material like plastic. So a well tuned spoke shave is as efficient at wood removal as a rasp and allows you to see what you are doing, not rough things up and obscure the view. Also, sanders are dusty and noisy and inefficient at wood removal. Tuned planes and shaves do things quicker, quieter and allow you to be a more sensitive craftsman.


Interesting that whole paragraph. 100% baloney really, but there's a lot of it about - this semi mystical "sensitive craftsman" thing. Good example of what I meant by the big divide, see above.
I like "The grain graphic for instance is worked with, not ignored" :lol: :lol: I think I might take to saying that at parties, when people ask me what I do.

PS Also, "sanders are dusty and noisy and inefficient at wood removal" is true in part, but they are actually very efficient at removing wood. You should try one Mikey!

PPS "Sam Maloof always referred to himself , simply as 'woodworker'." etc.
PPPS I take it back what I said about Maloof.I just read a bio he's obviously been around a bit! I'm not too fond of his spiky chairs though.


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## G S Haydon (26 Jun 2013)

He's back!

#-o Why does it have to be like this ](*,)


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## dm65 (27 Jun 2013)

G S Haydon":2yn5qo5a said:


> He's back!
> 
> #-o Why does it have to be like this ](*,)


Cos he like's pulling your timber 

Ask him when a blade\chisel is sharp enough - I double dare you


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## G S Haydon (27 Jun 2013)

Den, good point, well made. No need to take the bait


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2013)

The whole point of "sculptural" shapes like Savages is that they _aren't_ constrained by tools and techniques. Things like that would be very difficult to produce if there was an arbitrary commitment to a romantic view of woodwork. They are what you can get when you step away from the straight and narrow. Though I can't speak for Savage and have no idea of his "philosophy" if he has one at all. I guess he's mainly just earning a living and has found a way to get money from very rich people! Good thing too! He doesn't seem to be banging any particular drum.
Generally, actual sculptors will lay their hands on anything which will produce the end result, though there are those with a semi mystical approach (e.g. Eric Gill) who commit themselves to materials and techniques in a romantic way, usually harping back to an idealised and illusory golden age and sometimes dressing in funny clothes!
It takes all sorts (which is the answer to "why does it have to be like this?") and the slightly self-righteous moralistic tone of the romantics doesn't appeal to all of us.
Krenov springs to mind - he used to talk the talk but at the same time bodged things together with router etc in a very non-purist way. He's responsible for a lot of it!


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## bugbear (27 Jun 2013)

Jacob":1nj2n1v3 said:


>



Couple of classic high quality saws - nice!

BugBear


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2013)

bugbear":jkw5cd77 said:


> ....
> Couple of classic high quality saws - nice!
> 
> BugBear


Ebay lucky dip!
24" Robt Sorby 8 pt
28" Ibbertson 4 pt rip. I guess it's Ibbertson but can only see ..bertson.
Different owners marks on each but seem like a pair and neither much used.
PS just had a look - only one name "W Wilkie" and initials WSW so I think they were both his. From Scotland as I recall. Presumably bought not long before he had no further use for them - popped his clogs?


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## woodbrains (27 Jun 2013)

Jacob":1kc2huhw said:


> Krenov springs to mind - he used to talk the talk but at the same time bodged things together with router etc in a very non-purist way. He's responsible for a lot of it!



Hello,

I'll take the bait one more time, and I do realise it is bait, as Jacob knows I have visited krenov's home, workshop and college. But for the sake of those who might be reading this and the outside chance they give any credence to Jacob's mis informed gibberish, I'll set the record straight. Krenov had very little to do with routers, it being well documented that his early trials with them left him dissatisfied. In fact he mostly used a small cast iron spindle, converted to take router cutters, long before router tables became common place. He mostly shaped wood with planes, spoke shaves and knives almost all of which he made himself as the job dictated. His 'thing' was to leave the very refined marks from the tool behind. He referred to this as the craftsman leaving fingerprints, and did his utmost to make the tool cut cleanly, to the final finish, as sand papering would remove the marks they the craftsman had left. Edge tools, not routers.

And bodging is another field of woodworking that is extremely skilled. Wrongly Used as an insult for poor craftsmen, again shows lack of understanding and ignorance; as is ridiculing late and highly regarded craftsmen, like Gill, Maloof and Krenov, not around to defend themselves. You truly are a Philistine, and owning a few old saws does not change that. Using them to cut up rotten old pallets only illustrates the fact.

Mike.


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":1ig26hl6 said:


> ......You truly are a Philistine, and owning a few old saws does not change that. Using them to cut up rotten old pallets only illustrates the fact.
> 
> Mike.


I was only reducing it so I could get it to the bandsaw, honest sir! 
What on earth is wrong with sawing up a bit of wood with a wood saw? That's what it's for isn't it? Or should I hang it on the wall and worship it?
Incidentally whilst we are on the subject - a scrub plane is ideal for ripping the surface off pallet wood, really fast and effective. I'm quite interested in using scrap low-grade wood for making nice things and have some projects in mind, but not until I have my new workshop.

NB I wasn't ridiculing Gill, I'm an admirer. Much of his work was done with stone quarried only a few yards from where I live.
I was ridiculing his semi religious craft theories. I don't think they did him any good, he couldn't shake off his middle class up-tight englishness. He should have gone to Paris as he was invited (by Maillol, apprentice to Rodin) , but too timid to make the break. Semi religious craft theories seem to be very much an english thing - tool worshippers and fetishists crying blasphemy, everywhere!

Here is a bit of our local stone, currently to be seen hanging around in the V&A:


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## woodbrains (27 Jun 2013)

Hello,

There are many more serious issues to Eric Gill that should evoke criticism, other than his philosophies on craftsmanship or the way he dressed. As ever, missing the point.

Mike.


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":1556g4kg said:


> Hello,
> 
> There are many more serious issues to Eric Gill that should evoke criticism, other than his philosophies on craftsmanship or the way he dressed. As ever, missing the point.
> 
> Mike.


Moralising again! Are you on some sort of crusade? The knights of St Jim? Mary Whitehouse lives?
Gill wasn't the only artist/craftsman who was a sex crazed perv, by a long chalk. Not that that's an excuse but he was relatively harmless compared to others. Even poor old Lowry is getting the finger of suspicion lately.

PS I think Gill would be entertained by "The grain graphic for instance is worked with, not ignored" - he was not too happy with arts n crafts nonsense (except his own) and was working towards something else. He should have gone abroad. Bauhaus would have sorted him out!


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## G S Haydon (27 Jun 2013)

_"go straight for sanding disc on a drill, surform rasp etc with the most sophisticated tool being perhaps a card scraper. All to be finished with ROS or by hand with sand paper and cork blocks"_

sometimes it's best to stick with the traditional approach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFydYZjs5T4 :wink:


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## Jelly (27 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":uqf89a28 said:


> And bodging is another field of woodworking that is extremely skilled. Wrongly Used as an insult for poor craftsmen, again shows lack of understanding and ignorance; as is ridiculing late and highly regarded craftsmen, like Gill, Maloof and Krenov, not around to defend themselves. You truly are a Philistine, and owning a few old saws does not change that. Using them to cut up rotten old pallets only illustrates the fact.



I have to say, I find your comment on using old saws to cut up pallets being somehow wrong most strange... My tools are first and formost *Tools*, yes some of them are also wonderful artifacts, but that's secondary; It saddens me to see tools which are reduced to mere collectors items by rarity or value, when they remain perfectly serviceable.

I suspect that Jacob knows full well what he's doing and what he's talking about; I find his directness refreshing (though the repetition can be wearing...). I think (and I could be wrong here, but i'd be willing to wager say... a round of beers, that I'm not) he objects to people being put on a pedestal and their thinking venerated, much as he objects to the veneration of tools. 

When I first went to work in a research lab, my supervisor piped up to us with "Drink deep, or taste not the pierian spring." and I countered him with "a little bit of knowlege may be a dangerous thing; but you've given me something far more dangerous, a lot of knowlege and no experience to temper it with. I believe I'm here so that we can rectify that." he laughed and conceded that perhaps I had the better point... I include this anecdote, because I do get the impression that many of us on this forum suffer from just that, more information than they can intelligently apply; it's a problem of the modern age, rather than being starved for information, we're treading water trying not do drown in it.

In a related vein I think G S Haydon makes a valid point talking about how the work you do and the training you received acts as a prism for your view of the subject... I enjoy working with hand tools, but I still see things and instinctively think about how you could optimise the process to suit making masses of identical ones; I'm never going to fully escape that background.


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## G S Haydon (27 Jun 2013)

_"I suspect that Jacob knows full well what he's doing and what he's talking about; I find his directness refreshing (though the repetition can be wearing...). I think (and I could be wrong here, but i'd be willing to wager say... a round of beers, that I'm not) he objects to people being put on a pedestal and their thinking venerated, much as he objects to the veneration of tools. "_

=D> 

Sadly though I think he might be on the way to sitting on a pedestal too. Although like I have said if you distill the posts he makes there is a valid point on woodwork and general joinery.

I think much of the concern about pedestals and veneration is misplaced. If someone finds a particular writer or teacher inspiring what's the harm? If someone enjoys buying a particular tool is that a problem? Sure I would agree that thinking your and inferior woodworker because you plane did not cost £250.00 is foolish but that's not the fault of a tool maker, it's down to us.

It's good to have a counter view, a different perspective, but often it becomes rude, unhelpful and confusing. This does more damage than any tool maker or assumed pedestal sitter ever did.


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2013)

Jelly":1h2odanl said:


> ........ I enjoy working with hand tools, but I still see things and instinctively think about how you could optimise the process to suit making masses of identical ones......


When hand tool were the main means of production of wooden things generally they _were _"making masses of identical ones". Thats what makes "ordinary" stuff so interesting - the pressure to produce meant optimisation of every detail - often seen in DTs where there can be all sorts of little flourishes resulting from a high speed approach. 
The carefully crafted one-off is a bit of a romantic ideal. Making ten of them is more interesting in my opinion, and you can expect the last one to be an improvement on the first, as problems get solved and details rationalised.
So yes you should be looking at optimising the process.


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## woodbrains (27 Jun 2013)

Jacob":3zid2acp said:


> Moralising again! Are you on some sort of crusade? The knights of St Jim? Mary Whitehouse lives?
> Gill wasn't the only artist/craftsman who was a sex crazed perv, by a long chalk. Not that that's an excuse but he was relatively harmless compared to others. Even poor old Lowry is getting the finger of suspicion lately.
> 
> PS I think Gill would be entertained by "The grain graphic for instance is worked with, not ignored" - he was not too happy with arts n crafts nonsense (except his own) and was working towards something else. He should have gone abroad. Bauhaus would have sorted him out!



Hello,

Eric Gill was a pedophile and a rapist, even 'experimenting' with his dog. How this makes him relatively harmless compared to others, I do not know. I would not moralise about his work, I'm not a prude.

Since he is dead, we'll never know, but since he was a graphic artist and wood print maker, I think he would know exactly what I mean about the grain graphic being integral to the work.

Yes tools should be used for cutting wood, but not nails, staples, embeddeg grit and dirt in an old pallet. You cannot pretend to to have some sort of warm fuzzy feeling about old tools and patently not care about their misuse.

I think there are many forthright posters here, but many are much better informed about what they say. Directness is no substitute for lack of knowledge.

Mike.


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## barkwindjammer (27 Jun 2013)

I thought the winter months (cabin fever) in here were a bit mental :?


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## iNewbie (27 Jun 2013)

Jelly":1u0olp5q said:


> *I suspect that Jacob knows full well what he's doing* and what he's talking about; I find his directness refreshing (though the repetition can be wearing...). I think (and I could be wrong here, but i'd be willing to wager say... a round of beers, that I'm not) he objects to people being put on a pedestal and their thinking venerated, much as he objects to the veneration of tools.
> .



Just a bit...

Never thought I'd see a Woodworkers Drive-by on a daily basis.


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## G S Haydon (27 Jun 2013)

Just did a read up on Mr Gill, disturbing and sad.

And to think, all this started with a post about a tenon saw.


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## woodbrains (27 Jun 2013)

Hello,

Yes, a thread from a tenon saw which I bought, but still have not received. BOO.

But still not as sad as the antics of Eric Gill. Apart from the sculpture, which I like very much, but could understand why others mightn't he did design some of the most beautiful type faces ever, and probably encountered by everyone on a daily basis. This gives me the chills, I have to say.

Mike.


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## Jacob (27 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":3trxa7jr said:


> Jacob":3trxa7jr said:
> 
> 
> > Moralising again! Are you on some sort of crusade? The knights of St Jim? Mary Whitehouse lives?
> ...


It seems non of them complained, not even a bark from the dog, and you wonder how true it was.


> I would not moralise about his work, I'm not a prude.


You are moralising left right and centre about everything - even how I use a rusty old saw!


> ..
> Yes tools should be used for cutting wood, but not nails, staples, embeddeg grit and dirt in an old pallet. You cannot pretend to to have some sort of warm fuzzy feeling about old tools and patently not care about their misuse.


I wasn't misusing it. I avoided nails etc. I use it a lot - in preference to more modern saws - it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling! And it cuts nicely since I sharpened it.


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## woodbrains (28 Jun 2013)

Hello.

None of his victims complained; Jacob, do you realise what you just said? You are a reprehensible oaf. Words of suitable strength are not allowed on this forum to describe you.

Mike.


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## Jacob (28 Jun 2013)

Moralising again! 
Sex and woodwork don't mix. Why don't you just stick to lecturing us on the "correct" way to use a scrub plane etc. :lol: 
Should there be a punishment tariff for woodworking misdemeanours perhaps? That should keep you going. Could be a sticky: "Woodbrain's Corrections Corner"


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## RogerP (28 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":ez1fg5dg said:


> G S Haydon":ez1fg5dg said:
> 
> 
> > ......... Had been quietly watching it for days..........
> > Mike.


You may imagine that you've been quietly watching something but if you sell stuff the true extent of views and watchers is revealed. Most items I list get many watchers, often into three figures, of course only a few actually bid. Nothing you spot on eBay hasn't been seen by a great many others.


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## bugbear (28 Jun 2013)

Jacob":20co88gg said:


> ...but not until I have my new workshop.



That's more like it!

BugBear


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## bugbear (28 Jun 2013)

Jacob":2ffpd4b9 said:


> What on earth is wrong with sawing up a bit of wood with a wood saw? That's what it's for isn't it? Or should I hang it on the wall and worship it?



Straw man, as ever. If I need to chop through a root when digging up a tree, I'm not going to be so stupid as to use my finest, carefully sharpened, felling axe. I'd use a lesser axe, or a mattock.

If you want to use a good saw on gritty timber, at least you'll get plenty of sharpening practise.

BugBear


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## Jacob (28 Jun 2013)

bugbear":opof2ygu said:


> .....
> If you want to use a good saw on gritty timber, at least you'll get plenty of sharpening practise.
> 
> BugBear


True. The more you use (and sharpen) a saw the better you get at it - and the saw gets polished up nicely. They shouldn't be mothballed. I could use various other saws but then I'd have to sharpen them too so it makes no difference. BTW I didn't hit any nails or grit. I looked at where the nails and grit were and avoided them - a crafty trick I was taught by an ancient woodworking guru I found hiding in the woodshed. He said his name was Eric, and he had a very sexy dog with him.
I expect woodbrain will be along shortly to administer a spanking. :lol:

PS I'm a bit of an amateur at sharpening. It's good enough for me but wouldn't pass muster commercially. But it gets better - faster and easier, and using the saw not only tests what you have been doing but also gives you a chance to improve on the last attempt - and in the process you do some useful sawing. Win win!


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## woodbrains (28 Jun 2013)

RogerP":28ptshw7 said:


> woodbrains":28ptshw7 said:
> 
> 
> > G S Haydon":28ptshw7 said:
> ...



Yes, I know. I won the saw paid a fair price and am not unhappy. But there is a sort of unwritten agreement on these forums, that ebay finds are not publicised in case of clashes of interest. Whether it does any good or not, I don't know. Jacob probably wouldn't have bid on it , unless he was watching the saw prior to its mention. It seems some other ebay era were complaining about losses, not me.

Mike.


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## RogerP (28 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":b77ijre7 said:


> Yes, I know. I won the saw paid a fair price and am not unhappy. But there is a sort of unwritten agreement on these forums, that ebay finds are not publicised in case of clashes of interest. Whether it does any good or not, I don't know. Jacob probably wouldn't have bid on it , unless he was watching the saw prior to its mention. It seems some other ebay era were complaining about losses, not me.
> 
> Mike.


Well done on winning the saw  I agree, it's best not to publicise auctions before they finish.


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## woodbrains (28 Jun 2013)

Jacob":oteeu2lr said:


> Moralising again!
> Sex and woodwork don't mix. Why don't you just stick to lecturing us on the "correct" way to use a scrub plane etc. :lol:
> Should there be a punishment tariff for woodworking misdemeanours perhaps? That should keep you going. Could be a sticky: "Woodbrain's Corrections Corner"



Jacob, are you still trying to score points from the depths of the contemptible pit you have dug for yourself. For a start, YOU initially ridiculed Gill for wearing funny clothes, yet you seem to have some sort of beef with me, for pointing out that his incestuous relationship with his sisters and his raping and molestation of his own daughters, would be the bigger of his failings. I would pity anyone who did not make a moral judgement on this; but the other fact you are overlooking is, this behaviour is illegal and demands long prison sentences. These are not just the eccentric quirks of a talented man, but something much more sinister. I can still (just) separate the mans failings from his art, art which I think is historically important, but I still have opinions on his criminality. If I was moralising about Gill, I might have spoke of his extra marital affairs, or his profane religious prints, but I did not, these are his own business, and the business of consenting adults. His sick sexual behaviour towards his offspring and siblings is another matter, and I think you should reconsider your comment about them not complaining and had it really happened. Incidentally, Gill was a diarist, which is one source the biographers gleaned the information. The evidence is by his own hand.

Mike.


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## Jacob (28 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":2q651nz8 said:


> .....The evidence is by his own hand.
> 
> Mike.


Well exactly. Who knows what the truth was?

How do you feel about Wagner, who was deeply anti-semitic and hence contributed to the death of 6million jews and others?


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## Cheshirechappie (28 Jun 2013)

Jacob":311eqlm7 said:


> woodbrains":311eqlm7 said:
> 
> 
> > .....The evidence is by his own hand.
> ...




Wagner died in the 1880s, so his personal contribution to the Holocaust was, to put it mildly, minimal; he can hardly be blamed if a psychopathic dictator liked his music 50 years after his death. It is also known that throughout his life, Wagner had many Jewish friends and aquaintances; whether the antisemitic sentiments of his later life were any worse than general German public opinion of the 1870s and 1880s seems to depend on who is interpreting his words and writings, and what political leanings the interpreter is trying to support or justify. Who knows what the truth was?

Perhaps more to the point, did either Gill or Wagner ever own or use a Spear and Jackson 14" tenon saw, and if so, what was their assessment of it?


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## G S Haydon (28 Jun 2013)

_"Perhaps more to the point, did either Gill or Wagner ever own or use a Spear and Jackson 14" tenon saw, and if so, what was their assessment of it?"_ :lol:


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## woodbrains (28 Jun 2013)

Cheshirechappie":36xdu3b6 said:


> Jacob":36xdu3b6 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains":36xdu3b6 said:
> ...



Hello,

Nicely done Cheshirechappie!

Tenon saw came today, looks rather good. Flat plate, heavy brass back. Looks like the seller sharpened it or else was sharpened recently by the original user. Well done, in fact, though I was looking forward to sharpening it myself. Still, I'll give the handle a strip down and oil, should be a good saw.

Mike.


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## Jacob (29 Jun 2013)

woodbrains":2r0tha4s said:


> ....
> Jacob, are you still trying to score points from the depths of the contemptible pit you have dug for yourself. For a start, YOU initially ridiculed Gill for wearing funny clothes, yet you seem to have some sort of beef with me, for pointing out that his incestuous relationship with his sisters and his raping and molestation of his own daughters, would be the bigger of his failings. I would pity anyone who did not make a moral judgement on this; but the other fact you are overlooking is, this behaviour is illegal and demands long prison sentences. These are not just the eccentric quirks of a talented man, but something much more sinister. I can still (just) separate the mans failings from his art, art which I think is historically important, but I still have opinions on his criminality. If I was moralising about Gill, I might have spoke of his extra marital affairs, or his profane religious prints, but I did not, these are his own business, and the business of consenting adults. His sick sexual behaviour towards his offspring and siblings is another matter, and I think you should reconsider your comment about them not complaining and had it really happened. Incidentally, Gill was a diarist, which is one source the biographers gleaned the information. The evidence is by his own hand.
> 
> Mike.


I would add - I started by criticising Gill for his quasi religious craft nonsense - you leapt in to defend him - then changed your mind and started going on about his perversions. 
In point of fact I see his perversions as _part_ of his moralising quasi-religion - self righteousness often being an excuse for all sorts of unpleasant things particularly where religion is concerned, as we all know.
You have completely missed the point of what I was saying and gone off on an irrelevant rant of your own.

Moralising about the supposed misuse of a rusty old saw could be the thin end of a wedge!


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## bugbear (6 Jul 2013)

G S Haydon":1pwjb08b said:


> Many years/generations of work on oak and the like I would assume. No chance of a reflection. Just so I can be shot down in flames I think old saws are hard to shine because of the steel used? Always ends up greyish rather than mirror?



I think that's just corrosion. Whilst attempting to identify the mystery Tyzack saw, I (obviously) looked through the saw sections of a few old catalogues. Makers included Tyzack, Disston, Ward, Spear and Jackson.

Many (say 75%) of the handsaws included "polished" (or even "mirror polished", for the premium models) in their descriptions. 

So it seems to have been a normal and desirable property of a saw.

BugBear


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## G S Haydon (6 Jul 2013)

You say "corrosion" I say "patina". Just to add some context the saws were/are used by a joiner, wheelwright, carpenter etc. I found while planning oak the polished front edge of my chip breaker has the same black developing, tannin stain is what I would loosely call it. It takes quite a polish to remove it and it's far from a, rusty, pitted type of corrosion. Just a wipe with an oily rag does not shift it. Ditto the saws, smooth, dark with no rust but plenty of "patina", still working perfectly on joinery


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## Jacob (6 Jul 2013)

bugbear":1c9ays1n said:


> ..
> Many (say 75%) of the handsaws included "polished" (or even "mirror polished", for the premium models) in their descriptions.
> 
> So it seems to have been a normal and desirable property of a saw.
> ...


No doubt, but not the same as "necessary" or "useful". In the same way, matt black paint, brass knobs and bubinga help sell american novelty planes.


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