# bad english, so called americanisms and bad spelling



## dirtydeeds (29 Nov 2007)

on the guage topic, somebody complained about something fitting real good. thats not american at all, its just bad english. it grates on my ear regardless of accent


as for differences in american and british terminology, i find it useful in some cases to differentiate between things

take the terms keep (mainly british) and strike plate (mainly american)


i use the term keep for the jamb fitting for a deadlock

and strike plate for the jamb fitting of a sash lock or a latch

both pieces of ironmongery do exactly what the word says 


now for my bad spelling. it probably grates on other people

if its not a business communication, i dont bother with a spell checker


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## NickWelford (29 Nov 2007)

My personal bugbear is the use - especially by so-called educated people like politicains - of the word 'less' when 'fewer' should be used - e.g. 'less people' ...... I just have to shout 'fewer, you moron' at the radio........


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## woodbloke (29 Nov 2007)

DD wrote:


> i dont bother with a spell checker


...or the 'shift' key for Capitals  - Rob


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## Woody Alan (29 Nov 2007)

Sadly in corporate world, from time to time I have to participate in conference calls where top management back slap each other. We have a new american higher manager and he said on this call "We've been noticed BIG.. REAL BIG by the people that matter" we all listened in stunned silence. He went on for a while in this vein saying absolutely nothing in the end.
I must just counter that with our British management, who came up with the internally used slogan "we're not just good we're bl**** good", like that would pitch to our level of understanding. That went down like a lead balloon.

Alan


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## Shadowfax (29 Nov 2007)

My pet hate is the use of "of" when the correct word is "have".
It really grates with me when I read or hear people using the expression "would of" or "could of". They don't ever say "I of done something"!!
Must calm down!

SF


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## bugbear (29 Nov 2007)

http://www.effingpot.com/

(hmm; having to use the wayback machine for this one)

http://web.archive.org/web/200708231503 ... rican.html

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswi ... =1#message

BugBear


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## Paul Kierstead (29 Nov 2007)

Woody Alan":375qw8f3 said:


> He went on for a while in this vein saying absolutely nothing in the end.



I really only care about two things in meetings; are we communicating, and are you wasting my *&^&*^$#, (*&$(*, ()*#)(#% , *#)[email protected]_)#% time. For the former, I work hard to make sure we are communicating; there is an insane mix of cultures and languages around here, so you have to stick with the core. For the latter, I just couldn't stand it anymore. I like to make things, to do things. I couldn't take spending over half my week in meetings where absolutely nothing at all was accomplished. I now work in a job that pays a lot less, but I get only about a single email a day and have meetings about once a month, when its busy. Now I get to work.


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## Russell (29 Nov 2007)

Language evolves and phases and words in common usage will eventually become the norm. You only have to watch a 70's TV program to see how much language has changed. My children constantly spout new "cool" words and phrases in a few years those phrases will be in the Oxford dictionary :roll:


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## Lord Nibbo (29 Nov 2007)

Umm... This is a woodwork forum, this is the hand tool section. There are plenty of English literature/grammar forums where I can go and read if I wanted to. 

What's this thread doing here? :?


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## Pete W (29 Nov 2007)

Lord Nibbo":3i5vswzh said:


> What's this thread doing here? :?



My thought exactly!?!

Pete


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## tnimble (29 Nov 2007)

Shadowfax":2f2zdj5m said:


> My pet hate is the use of "of" when the correct word is "have".
> It really grates with me when I read or hear people using the expression "would of" or "could of". They don't ever say "I of done something"!!
> Must calm down!
> 
> SF



Could someone please elaborate a bit on how "of" could be used instead of "have". Maybe it's me not offing :? English as my native tonge. As a small tangent I know a few Americans that use "ov" instead of "of"


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## Slim (29 Nov 2007)

Lord Nibbo":ivbr5uf0 said:


> What's this thread doing here? :?



Especially as the OP's post is very bad English. :roll: 

Who cares!


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## pam niedermayer (29 Nov 2007)

tnimble":1mvojpl8 said:


> ...
> Could someone please elaborate a bit on how "of" could be used instead of "have". Maybe it's me not offing :? English as my native tonge. As a small tangent I know a few Americans that use "ov" instead of "of"



Sure, from the contraction of [sic ] have, e.g. "should've," which is often pronounced "should ov."

Pam


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## Racers (29 Nov 2007)

Hi,

I'm with Lord Nibbo on this one. And as some one who is dyslexic and has real trouble spelling even simple words, to see people pontificating about how much better they are at english than me is a slap in the face. If you where critiquing a piece of woodwork would you have the same attitude?


Pete


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## TheTiddles (29 Nov 2007)

It appears from the last few months posts Dirtydeeds has a great deal of internal anger and I think it's good that he can release it here instead of being an axe murderer. Though, axes are hand tools so perhaps this is the right place for it? Not tenuous enough?? ok, maybe he's got an axe to grind over something? Perhaps he's trying to chisel out a niche for himself? Seems pretty plane to me!


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## Shadowfax (29 Nov 2007)

Sorry, Pete, but I don't think there is any "pontificating" going on here.
OK, this thread is probably not in the right place but part of the point of it is that language is not used correctly on a lot of occasions.
I was merely saying what I find annoying - nothing more. I don't want to change the world.

SF


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## Ryan Cathey (30 Nov 2007)

Shadowfax":19cfdg2w said:


> My pet hate is the use of "of" when the correct word is "have".
> It really grates with me when I read or hear people using the expression "would of" or "could of". They don't ever say "I of done something"!!
> Must calm down!
> 
> SF



That's actually called a contraction. It's correct spelling is "should've". Brace yourself, I'm from Kentucky; here's a list of particularly common contractions.

-could've
-would've
-should've
-when's (when is)
-since'afor (since before)
-'ceppin (except)
-the ever popular "ain't"
-won't (ok, that's a normal one but seriously, "won't" from "will" and "not"...what's up with that???)
-aginit (against it. most of these happen when you talk really fast)
that's just a small list.

O' course I wou-int wanna make a mockry of the English language mates. 'Ello, pip pip and aw dat. Cherrio, mates.


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## Pete W (30 Nov 2007)

Tiddles, that's an outstanding attempt to bring an off-topic post back on-topic.

[applause]

Pete


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## bugbear (30 Nov 2007)

Lord Nibbo":279bcgmr said:


> Umm... This is a woodwork forum, this is the hand tool section. There are plenty of English literature/grammar forums where I can go and read if I wanted to.
> 
> What's this thread doing here? :?



Indeed. This site does have "General Chat (Off-Topic)" which would seem the most appropriate.

Mods?

BugBear


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## wizer (30 Nov 2007)

Yes I could talk about this for days, I'm very fussy with language. Language fascinates me.

I really don't mind colloquialisms like "Ain't" and "Can't". Regional dialect doesn't particularly bother me either.

But when people use words they really don't understand out of context, gets my goat. Of course, there are lots of popular phrases that are not grammatically correct. If my missus wants me to take something up stairs she will say "Can you bring that upstairs." It drives me crazy, to the point where I either snap "take, TAKE!" back or just ignore her until she says it right.


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## Woody Alan (30 Nov 2007)

> It drives me crazy, to the point where I either snap "take, TAKE!" back or just ignore her until she says it right.



...and you're still alive to tell this tale?

Alan


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## pam niedermayer (30 Nov 2007)

Woody Alan":2zfybbnm said:


> > It drives me crazy, to the point where I either snap "take, TAKE!" back or just ignore her until she says it right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Big grin, Alan. I have to assume he's not yet 30 and has very little to do, since most of us have adulted (heh, heh) by then and are way too busy to do anything but note others' mistakes. OTOH, perhaps he's the best advertisement for not marrying the first bimbo he comes across.

Pam


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## dedee (30 Nov 2007)

WiZeR":3cl0acj5 said:


> If my missus wants me to take something up stairs she will say "Can you bring that upstairs." It drives me crazy, to the point where I either snap "take, TAKE!" back or just ignore her until she says it right.



I think this is probably why I have so much trouble learning a foreign language....I can't speak my own properly

What is wrong with asking for something to be brought* upstairs? ie which grammar rules have been broken

Andy

*edit bought to brought


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## patl (30 Nov 2007)

nothing wrong with it, as long as she's upstairs asking you to bring it up, not downstairs which I think was the point.

a) can the mods move this into general chat please.

b) 'should of' is a pet hate, but it's interesting in that it contracted from "should have" to "should've" But then uncontracted to a different word, English, fascinating language.
Would I find "aint" just as grating if I'd been around 200 or however many years ago...


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## Slim (30 Nov 2007)

The point is that this is a woodworking forum. As long as you can understand what is trying to be said, it shouldn't matter how it is written.

I was brought up to think that correcting people was very bad manners. In my book it is much worse than using incorrect grammer.


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## tnimble (30 Nov 2007)

patl":30ko9ycy said:


> Would I find "aint" just as grating if I'd been around 200 or however many years ago...


Thū wolde habban mast likligr.


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## wizer (30 Nov 2007)

patl":10f44cmu said:


> nothing wrong with it, as long as she's upstairs asking you to bring it up, not downstairs which I think was the point.



Exactomundo


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## Ryan Cathey (30 Nov 2007)

WiZeR":1053j34k said:


> ...But when people use words they really don't understand ...



Okay, that makes me mad too. I have a friend who uses the word "akward" at least two times per sentence. Whether or not the situation is really akward or not. I almost want to ask him if he knows what the word "akward" means.


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## Mike.C (30 Nov 2007)

> Slim,
> 
> The point is that this is a woodworking forum. As long as you can understand what is trying to be said, it shouldn't matter how it is written.
> 
> I was brought up to think that correcting people was very bad manners. In my book it is much worse than using incorrect grammer.



Exactly. =D> =D> =D>

How do you think someone like Pete feels



> Pete
> 
> Hi,
> 
> ...





> SF
> 
> Sorry, Pete, but I don't think there is any "pontificating" going on here.
> OK, this thread is probably not in the right place but part of the point of it is that language is not used correctly on a lot of occasions.
> ...



There are members from all over the world, do you expect them all to speak perfect English?

Cheers

Mike


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## Streepips (30 Nov 2007)

it means american cowboys with their yups and yeps in plain language one is saying in short **are you up** and the others is replying **yes I am


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## Streepips (30 Nov 2007)

I have read the original post and all the subsequent responses and especially the posts that subscribe to the upbraiding and condemnation of those who would seek to point out or even cast observation on, the perceived shortcomings of others in regard to the spoken or written language......
If a person is brought up to respect and cherish the proper use and intrinsic value of language, and finds it irksome or even a barrier to good communication when simple good use of language is not apparent or even thought worthy of effort to aspire to, then upon pointing this out is in turn chastised by someone whose values lay in the allowance of another the prerogative to remain illiterate ?

What possible use or good purpose is there in not aspiring to the better use of language and correspondingly, what good is served by defending ignorance to the point of the dereliction of a language that is the only truly world class tool we have?



Have you noticed? since libraries ceased insisting upon silence, the reading and writing skills of the populace, especially the young, have waned dramatically. The issues are inexorably linked..

I have worked for years with two friends, one a joiner and one a builder that both have dyslexia and they have no hesitation is asking for help with reading and writing of bills and letters, instructions and so on and I have no hesitation in helping them. These friends help me in other ways with what skills they have that better mine. So a balance of sorts is achieved, but if we each failed to either acknowledge our own shortcomings or gently point out those of our friends we would all be the worse for it I am sure.

However if a customer asks me to provide them with a chest of draws, and expects me to "understand" am I to provide them with a trunk of knickers? 
How long before the guesswork brought about by this acceptance of "dumbing down" starts to cost too dearly?

And I agree, this thread would be better hosted in the general chat forum.


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## Slim (30 Nov 2007)

Sorry Sreetpips, you used too many long words there. I didn't understand a word of it. :roll:


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## Streepips (30 Nov 2007)

Rather proves the point then does it not? *S*


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## Slim (1 Dec 2007)

No it doesn't. The fact is, that this is not the place to pick people up on their shortcomings in regard to the spoken or written language, as you put it. Nor is it the place to over embellish your words in order to appear superior.

People visit this forum in order to seek and divulge information with regards to woodworking, They do not come here for an English lesson, nor to have their shortcomings pointed out by a bunch of pedants. It is down right rude to do so.


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## Streepips (1 Dec 2007)

seems you did understand the long words............


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## WellsWood (1 Dec 2007)

> Sorry Sreetpips, you used too many long words there. I didn't understand a word of it.



Well I did understand it perfectly, as it was well written and properly punctuated with, as far as I noticed, no spelling mistakes. I also applaud the sentiments contained in it.

I for one am heartily fed up of trying to work out what some posters are trying to say because they are too lazy to add a capital letter, full stop or appropriately placed comma occasionally. Written communication requires careful construction, good spelling and correct punctuation in order to be effective, as we have nothing else from which to construe the intended meaning of the writer. We cannot see each other's faces or gestures nor hear the tone of another's voice when we converse in writing, so it becomes _more_ important, not less, to express ourselves clearly. Emoticons are helpful to a degree, but they are are poor substitute indeed for the nuances of meaning it is possible to express with a decent vocabulary, a basic understanding of sentence construction, and a modicum of common sense.

To suggest that because people come to this forum for help with woodworking the standard of literacy is of no consequence is patently ridiculous. If I want an answer to a question I am far more likely to meet with success if my question can be understood. Likewise if I answer a question for another member there is little point in doing so if it cannot be understood by that member. In both cases understanding is invariably enhanced with correct use of language.

If it is suggested to other members that as the standard of their English rises so will the calibre of the information they obtain, it doesn't make anyone "superior" or otherwise, any more than informing someone they'll get a better result with a handplane if the iron is sharp.

Mind you, when it comes to understanding I have to confess to being defeated by one thing: why this thread is on its 3rd page and is _still_ in the handtool section. :?

Edit:
Whoops, egg on face time. I took so long to post this it got moved while I wasn't looking.


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## Woodmagnet (1 Dec 2007)

I divvent knarr wot arl the fuss is aboot, i can unnerstan ivverything yer aarl tarking aboot. Just live and let live ware the lingo's conserned. :wink:


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## Slim (1 Dec 2007)

Hi Mark,

I never suggested that the use of good English wasn't important. All I am saying is that this forum is not the place to point out people's incorrect use of language, and that it is inappropriate and rude to do so. That is all.


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## Ryan Cathey (1 Dec 2007)

kevin":52fd3z3m said:


> I divvent knarr wot arl the fuss is aboot, i can unnerstan ivverything yer aarl tarking aboot. Just live and let live ware the lingo's conserned. :wink:



"Drop the vernacular please."
"That's not a vernacular it's a doiby!"
"Drop the vernacular!"

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk :lol: Ah the nuances of The Three Stooges


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## Gill (1 Dec 2007)

From time to time we all make spelling mistakes and incorporate grammatical errors into our writing. I can spot faults in even the most high-minded contributions to this thread, although that's not surprising because I've been trained to do so. No doubt my posts on other threads contain errors and there may even be some in this post; it's Sod's Law :roll:  .

Like it or not, we have all been educated to different standards. We come from different walks of life and have different inclinations and different aptitudes Some people write well, some don't; that's inevitable on any forum with a large membership. Occasionally we simply have to be tolerant and recognise this means that we all have different strengths and weaknesses.So long as people are trying to communicate in a helpful and pleasant manner to the best of their ability, I don't worry about the formalities of writing. Every now and then we seem to get new members who appear to be quite accomplished woodworkers but who write in a slovenly fashion. Strangely, their style of writing changes with each post and often their errors are inconsistent :lol: . I usually ignore these posts because I suspect them of being written by disaffected members who have opened a duplicate membership and are 'trolling' the forum to cause disruption. It's gratifying to note that most other genuine contributors to this forum seem to latch on to these sad people quite quickly. They usually vanish after a little while.

Gill


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## RogerS (1 Dec 2007)

In this thread there are several posts saying that one shouldn't pick up or criticise others' use of English. And yet, reading through the thread I can't actually find any instance of anyone doing this. If I'm right then where did this sentiment come from and why?

It seems to me that it started off as a valid viewpoint that dirtydeeds has regarding the proper use of English which is perfectly reasonable.

My own pet hate is the use of 'For sure' when I think that Certainly is better. 

When we come to the spoken word then I do get cross. I simply hate hearing English being spoken by some people. And before anyone gets sniffy about me being snobby, I don't speak posh or upper class or whatever ....


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## mr (1 Dec 2007)

Gill":1vl4exyw said:


> Every now and then we seem to get new members who appear to be quite accomplished woodworkers but who write in a slovenly fashion. Strangely, their style of writing changes with each post and often their errors are inconsistent :lol: . I usually ignore these posts because I suspect them of being written by disaffected members who have opened a duplicate membership and are 'trolling' the forum to cause disruption.
> Gill



Indeedy Gill I suspect that theres one or two of these around, a sudden influx of them over the past couple of months in fact. Trolling sockpuppets to man.


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## White House Workshop (1 Dec 2007)

I aksed mysen, wha' if'n this got too deep n I reckont wha'ever cos I aint bovvered. Init.


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## Newbie_Neil (1 Dec 2007)

White House Workshop":3cy0fh1x said:


> Init.



Sheesh, I though _*everyone*_ knew there were it was spelt with two n's. Innit. :lol: 

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

Neil


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## Lord Nibbo (1 Dec 2007)

Newbie_Neil":3ck61sez said:


> White House Workshop":3ck61sez said:
> 
> 
> > Init.
> ...


 
Round here it would be written "Ennit" followed by "Then" usually used in a sentence "Back along ten bobs worth of chips would last a family a whole week twas good Ennit then?" :lol:

You cant learn um nothin. :lol:


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## woodbloke (1 Dec 2007)

When I first started to teach at my new school in deepest, darkest Dorset, miles from any civilization, I was behind a little 11 yr old rusticated lad in the dinner que who had a plate full of chips. He then pointed to the tray of bangers and exclaimed...'Oi'l 'av one of eee'  - Rob


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## Gill (1 Dec 2007)

Dinner _*que*_?

Perhaps you picked up a little bit of Dorset yourself :lol: . Or did you fall under the influence of the French mistress  ?

Gill


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## woodbloke (1 Dec 2007)

Gill":230ntr5e said:


> Dinner _*que*_?
> 
> Perhaps you picked up a little bit of Dorset yourself :lol: . Or did you fall under the influence of the French mistress  ?
> 
> Gill


Gill - if the spell checker on this site worked properly then the word would have been correct!! - Rob, who *always* uses the Spellcheck


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