# Another Cycling Question



## woodbloke (9 Oct 2007)

After our recent trip to Switzerland, I was surprised to see that the Swiss take cycling far more seriously that we _appear_ to here in the UK. In a couple of cities we visited, there was a *far* better system of cycle paths on almost all roads within the cities (Lucerne and Lausanne), most roads had either one or both carriage ways with a cycle path and there were even cycle paths with their own traffic lights! The Swiss also seemed to have a much more tolerant attitude to cyclists in general and particularly to riding on the pavement (where practical) when there were no cycle paths. 
So the question is, what does the forum think about cyclists in the UK riding on the pavement? Our roads carry far more traffic than our continental brethren so it should be safer on the pavement. I would like to cycle on the roads but feel sometimes it's a life threatening experience in the UK...far less so abroad. Also, what's the legal position in the UK or do the police tend to turn a blind eye? Interested to hear the forums views - Rob


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## jasonB (9 Oct 2007)

In the UK cycling on the footpath is illegal and you could be fined £500 but its one of those laws that are seldom enforced. Also not allowed on public footpaths but bridalways are OK.

Careless cycling carries a £1000 fine and dangerous cycling £2500.

Jason


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## RogerS (9 Oct 2007)

In a word...No thank you. 

Bikes belong on the roads. I've been nearly run over too many times to count by inconsiderate cyclists who seem to think that the pavement is their right of way. 

And don't get me started on bikes who ignore red lights or oneway streets.


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## PowerTool (9 Oct 2007)

Roger Sinden":258hkmo1 said:


> In a word...No thank you.
> 
> Bikes belong on the roads. I've been nearly run over too many times to count by inconsiderate cyclists who seem to think that the pavement is their right of way.
> 
> And don't get me started on bikes who ignore red lights or oneway streets.



I agree completely.Unfortunately,Rob,this may be another case of "all being tarred with the same brush" but the majority of cyclists I see fall into the above category.
Also,being on a bike does not exempt people from using lights when it is dark :evil: 

Andrew


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## WellsWood (9 Oct 2007)

Roger Sinden":361hze8x said:


> And don't get me started on bikes who ignore red lights or oneway streets.



Abso -bl**dy-lutely!! =D> =D> =D>


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## Smudger (9 Oct 2007)

Did you see the news the other day - a guy was killed by a cyclist on the pavement outside of his house. 'Reckless riding' and he'll get a fine of about ninepence.
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/h ... _death.php

A colleague of mine was run down on the pavement as she came out of her house and spent weeks in hospital, ended up with a permanently damaged back. The cyclist? He rode off.

Makes my blood boil.


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## bobscarle (10 Oct 2007)

I agree with your sentiments entirely, bikes belong on the road.

I am a cyclist who does stop at red lights. I do not ride on the pavement and I use lights when it is dark. By all means have a go at cyclists, we are not perfect! But then take a look at motorists :evil: .

Car drivers in particular treat cyclists as an irritation. We are only on the road to get in their way. I loose count at the number of times I have been cut up by some half asleep motorist overtaking then turning left whilst still alongside me. And the number of drivers who seem to think that a bike needs about 6" of room between it and the gutter. Only a couple of weeks ago I was squeezed by a lorry that overtook me and then moved back in before he had properly passed. I was sent sprawling onto a grass verge. The people in the line of cars that were following had a good gawp but not one stopped to see if I was OK.

There are lots of accidents involving bikes, but it is normally the rider who comes off worse. Take a look http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6716199.stm. A car driver kills 4 cyclists. His car has defective tyres. The driver was fined £180, £45 for each life he took.....

Yes, have a go at cyclists if you will. Some deserve it. Some do not! Bikes belong on the road. Oh, and before you ask, I do have a car and, yes, I do pay road tax.

Bob (just getting off his soap box)


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## MrJay (10 Oct 2007)

I'm a crazy bicyclist person also (hray, us \o/). Pavements are for pedestrians; even ones with big bicycle pictures on. That some folk feel intimidated by bicycles when walking on paths strikes me as more than enough of reason not to do it (that and I do like to go at 25mph, and it's just not safe with all the grannys and small children getting in my way). If more people cycle on the roads then the safer it'll be. I reckon most of the car/bike hiccups stem from a lack of familiarity. Dressing up in high visibility accessories so you look like a mobile road works is surprisingly effective at getting motor vehicles and their drivers to give you sufficient space and otherwise cohabit nicely with you.

Roads strike me as pretty unpleasant places regardless of whether your driving/cycling/walking/sitting on a bus. Too much traffic either going too fast or making endless queues.

I gave up car ownership and no longer pay vehicle excise duty; which doesn't strike me as a problem, seeing as the road fund was scrapped in the 30's and roads are now financed out of general taxation. I'm sure you lot weren't about to jump on a bandwagon, but I'm not entirely convinced that motorists as a group are in much of a position to point the finger at bicyclists when it comes to social nuisance and mishap; that's not to say that inconsiderate cycling doesn't warrant criticism; but a bandwagon's not a credible place from which to do it.


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## RogerS (10 Oct 2007)

Wonder if anyone can tell me the logic/reason for those brown boxes that span the entire road width at some traffic lights. The ones with a cycle in.

Logic suggests that it is a space for cyclists to wait while the lights change.

Commonsense suggests that that is lunacy and/or takes very brave cyclists to straddle the road width (maybe 6 cyclists alongside each other?) in front of the rest of the traffic. Guaranteed to encourage goodwill between all road users.

Whatever. I agree with all the comments re encouraging cyclists/giving them more room etc but this little idea strikes me as just plain stupid.

Or maybe it's a feeble attempt to make us drive slower?


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## ike (10 Oct 2007)

Some of you lot sound like reactionary old farts, spluttering over your G&T from the comfort of your wingchairs! I bet most who slag off cyclists haven't had their leg over a bike since they were in short trousers. I cycle on average 1500 miles a year, and I witness the crass stupidity, selfishness and frankly, simple denial of motorists at least twice a week. That's 100 times a year THEY put MY LIFE at risk from the comfort of their tin boxes!! :evil: 

Ike


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## White House Workshop (10 Oct 2007)

The V11 I have in my hand says 'BICYCLE' under vehicle description. You can bet your bottom dollar I would get fines if a cop saw me stop my motorbike in one of those brown boxes! Would he do anything about a cyclist going through a red light though? Never... That's the problem, the law isn't enforced. Motorists are plagued daily by speed traps and cameras, parking attendants, tow-trucks, bus lane restrictions etc etc and cyclists break every law in the book but are never prosecuted. They are not obliged to carry insurance for the damage they cause to cars, either - the big scratch down my wife's car being a case in point (it was parked, before you ask).

I guess the cyclist who actually killed that poor guy in Wiltshire is being prosecuted but he'll probably get off with a suspended sentence or community service. What price a life?


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## RogerS (10 Oct 2007)

Ike

I don't think that we're 'going off on one' and actually advocating hanging cyclists from their handlebars. The posts all seem to argue (quite reasonably) that bikes belong on roads and not on pavements and that thereare inconsiderate cyclists just as much as their are inconsiderate motorists.

Roger


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## mr (10 Oct 2007)

As a pedestrian Ive been hit twice by cyclists on pavements and my wife has been hit once as well. Bicycles being vehicles belong on the road I think. I've also seen a courier riding a motorcycle down a pavement to get around traffic, there's no difference that I can see. 
Cheers Mike


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## ike (10 Oct 2007)

Roger wrote:



> and that thereare inconsiderate cyclists *just as much *as their are inconsiderate motorists.



That highlighted is what winds me up. There are vastly more inconsiderate drivers than there are inconsiderate cyclists. If you want to generalise about cyclists, let's not blow it out of proportion. Someone complains about one incident with a cyclist and they label all of us the same. What utter b*****ks!. 

I get 2 incidents a WEEK with motorists! THAT's what makes MY blood boil.

Ike


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## RogerS (10 Oct 2007)

ike":9icpi019 said:


> Roger wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you saying that there are no incosiderate cyclists then? To say thereare none is incorrect.

I said 'just as much' not 'just as many'.


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## ike (10 Oct 2007)

> Are you saying that there are no incosiderate cyclists then? To say thereare none is incorrect.



Nowhere have I said that.



> I said 'just as much' not 'just as many'.



Fair do's - I should have read it properly  

cheers,

Ike


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## Saintsman (10 Oct 2007)

Speaking as a cyclist, motorcyclist and car driver, I'm mostly with Ike on this.

Of course there are inconsiderate cyclists just as there are inconsiderate drivers. Difference is, one inconsiderate cyclist = one irritated driver, whilst one inconsiderate driver = one dead rider.

I appreciate that there are exceptions, and I have seen plenty of moronic riding by cyclists and bikers, but this is hugely exceeded by the occasions where I have witnessed homicidal driving towards me or my friends whilst on two wheels.
Most heard comment: (even when I'm lit up like Blackpool illuminations )'Sorry mate, I didn't see you' No ? Try LOOKING !

OK, rant over, but it's a sore and heartfelt point !

Paul


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## AndyT (10 Oct 2007)

I'm not surprised this one has provoked a lot of response. There are a lot of selfish people around, in cars, on bikes and on foot. When we are in shared public space, selfishness shows.

I do think we should all make an effort to stop abuse of pavements. If a cyclist decides not to use the road (eg because it's blocked, or they judge it too dangerous) and they want to use the pavement, then *they ought to get off and walk.* That way they move at the same speed as the other pedestrians - including the elderly, the very young and the not very agile, who have nowhere else to go.


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## woodbloke (10 Oct 2007)

Lots of great responses, many thanks. Reading my original OP I think that I phased the question rather badly when I said that:



> "what does the forum think about cyclists in the UK riding on the pavement? Our roads carry far more traffic than our continental brethren so it should be safer on the pavement. I would like to cycle on the roads but feel sometimes it's a life threatening experience in the UK...far less so abroad".



I too cycle on the roads, wear full hi-viz clothing (never saw anyone with daeglo gear at all) helmet and always stop for red lights and again have almost been hit by high speed cyclists on the pavement when walking to work.
I think what I'm attempting to say (rather badly) is that I would like to see a much more tolerant attitude and encouragement for people to get on their bikes (you've only got to look at the amount of fat people around these days :wink especially in city centres or for commuting to work.
We gate-crashed a wine tasting in Laveaux and the lady with the long brown hair (extreme right of pic, white shoes) and I had a long conversation over several glasses of nice white Swiss vino:







...and one of the things that she said was that it's an entirely political decision taken by each city as to the amount of provision allocated for cyclists, so Lucerne would agree to have 150KM of cycle ways and somewhere else might have only 100Km. She also said that this had only happened in the last 10 years or so, so maybe the UK is way behind in this sort of thing...so apologies for a poorly phrased opening post.
To high-jack my own thread for a bit, any guesses as to what this is?






and how many bikers would fancy owning this:






....'cos it's *brand new* and never been ridden (Transport Museum, Lucerne) :lol: - Rob


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## AndyT (10 Oct 2007)

Rob,

Is it an alpenhorn?

Andy


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## mr (10 Oct 2007)

It's the bell of a very long horn  and I'd like the motorbike please.  

Cheers Mike


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## Saintsman (10 Oct 2007)

Yup, looks like an alpenhorn to me.

The Manx Norton has me drooling over my lunchtime sandwich.

By the way, we recently holidayed near Interlaken, and I agree that the Swiss set up for cyclists (and, indeed, the attitude towards them) is way in advance of ours.

Paul


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## ike (10 Oct 2007)

> (you've only got to look at the amount of fat people around these days )



Oh my God! - you can't say THAT!! [-X It's so...so..well, 'non PC'. Who can come up with an alternative to 'fat'. :-k How about 'laterally challenged' (oh that means thin doesn't it?)

Ike


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## Saintsman (10 Oct 2007)

'Nutritionally indulgent' ?

Paul


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## woodbloke (10 Oct 2007)

ike":1oyim7ck said:


> > (you've only got to look at the amount of fat people around these days )
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is an alpenhorn...the longest *playable* horn in the world at 40' long :shock: 

Oops...hope I haven't got myself into trouble here  ...how about obese or rotundical? - Rob


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## Woodmagnet (10 Oct 2007)

Inconsiderate shopping trolley pushers are worse than anybody,
THEY are dangerous. :wink:


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## Harbo (10 Oct 2007)

Going back to Rob's original questions I think cycling is taken very seriously in this Country and if you inquire you will probably find that your Local Authority will have a "Cycling Policy" and be looking at ways of creating safe cycle routes within its boundaries. 
The problem in this country (apart from funding) is that we live in a very congested environment and you will find, in most cases, that most desired and proposed cycle routes are incomplete generally due to lack of space. 
How many frontagers are willing to give up their front gardens for a road widening or new cycle path? 
It has always been policy to segregate highway users from each other (as far as possible) and where separate cycle lanes cannot be created, combined footway/cycle lanes are created. The demand for cycle lanes is so great that sometimes stupid solutions are created with narrow lanes being provided by white lines at the side of the carriageway. 
You are not allowed to cycle on a pavement unless there is a sign to say that cycling is permitted. 
Lots of cycling initiatives have been set up including "Safe Routes to Schools" and "Sustrans" and lots of others encouriging safe cycling. 

Rod


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## MrJay (10 Oct 2007)

Roger Sinden":rfcjdteg said:


> Wonder if anyone can tell me the logic/reason for those brown boxes that span the entire road width at some traffic lights. The ones with a cycle in.



They're so cyclists can turn right at a junction, not so they all line up abreast. Normally cyclists inhabit the left curb which isn't a good place to turn right from.


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## woodbloke (10 Oct 2007)

Harbo":1o71c5r5 said:


> Going back to Rob's original questions I think cycling is taken very seriously in this Country and if you inquire you will probably find that your Local Authority will have a "Cycling Policy" and be looking at ways of creating safe cycle routes within its boundaries.
> The problem in this country (apart from funding) is that we live in a very congested environment and you will find, in most cases, that most desired and proposed cycle routes are incomplete generally due to lack of space.
> How many frontagers are willing to give up their front gardens for a road widening or new cycle path?
> It has always been policy to segregate highway users from each other (as far as possible) and where separate cycle lanes cannot be created, combined footway/cycle lanes are created. The demand for cycle lanes is so great that sometimes stupid solutions are created with narrow lanes being provided by white lines at the side of the carriageway.
> ...



Rod - I find this interesting as the opposite policy_ 'appears'_ to work in Switzerland, ie one of integration. In the pic below of a main intersection in Lucerne, there is a cycle path running through the middle of the junction and carriageway, roughly where the cars are in the pic foreground as well as cycle lanes on each side of the road (where feasable):







...and in the middle distance you can see a cyclist in a cycle lane in the middle of the road - Rob


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## RogerS (10 Oct 2007)

MrJay":3hhziyau said:


> Roger Sinden":3hhziyau said:
> 
> 
> > Wonder if anyone can tell me the logic/reason for those brown boxes that span the entire road width at some traffic lights. The ones with a cycle in.
> ...



Ah...makes sense. Thanks for that. Another one of lifes' little conundrums solved :wink:


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## Harbo (10 Oct 2007)

Yes Rob - I should have followed "it has always been policy" with the latest thinking is that you should abandon all road markings, kerbs, signs etc etc. and let everybody sort themselves out. The theory is that motorists are so confused that they will drive slowly? 
It as been trialed in a few locations and seems to work? (Urban areas only so far!)

The bit about the box is correct, but not always used and generally the colour used is red (but no specific colour is laid down in the signs manual - some areas use green - brown might be faded red?  

I used to cross a signalled junction with a left and a straight-on only movement. Cyclists, that you had previously overtaken, used to creep in front of the straight-on queue and then set off very slowly uphill with all the cars behind. Slightly frustrating but within their rights!  

Rod


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## Smudger (10 Oct 2007)

I was making a right turn across a level crossing this evening when a motorcyclist tried to overtake me on my left as I was doing it...

When he realised that he couldn't make it he swapped sides and overtook me on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic.

Moral dilemma - how hard do I work to keep cretins like that safe?


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## RogerS (11 Oct 2007)

woodbloke":2h6zvlo0 said:


> Rod - I find this interesting as the opposite policy_ 'appears'_ to work in Switzerland, ie one of integration.
> Rob



Ah..but Rob..in your picture there is something missing compared to the UK. Nose-to-tail cars :wink:


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## ike (11 Oct 2007)

> I was making a right turn across a level crossing this evening when a motorcyclist tried to overtake me on my left as I was doing it...
> 
> When he realised that he couldn't make it he swapped sides and overtook me on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic.
> 
> Moral dilemma - how hard do I work to keep cretins like that safe?



That's roughly 75 of my 100 'close shaves' a year - except they're cars doing it, hence my earlier rant. I have to be very defensive, very careful and assume that ALL drivers are moronic b******ds, otherwise I wouldn't be sat here writing this. I'd be very dead :shock: 

Ike


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## promhandicam (11 Oct 2007)

Interesting topic. Having cycled a lot in the UK and Europe in the past, although not so much in recent years, my observation would be that in Europe in general there are more 'ordinary cyclists' than in the UK. What do I mean ordinary? Well a lot of families / middle aged people / older people on 'sit up and beg' type bikes who use their bikes to go down to the town or to take the kids to school. Yes there are cycle couriers and others for whom speed is of an essence and rules are there to be broken but they seem to be definitely in the minority. In Robs last pic, how many bikes are there? A lot more than you'd see parked up in most british town centres I guess. As for cycling on pavements or even so called 'cycle lanes' which are nothing more than a few painted lines - in the UK, personally I will always take my chances on the roads. On the continent however some of the cycle paths are as wide and better surfaced than the roads so there it is a no brainer. 

All the best, Steve


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## woodbloke (11 Oct 2007)

Promhandicam wrote -


> how many bikes are there? A lot more than you'd see parked up in most british town centres I guess


Steve - further up into the town there were spaces allocated for parking bikes that might be say, the size of half a tennis court...and they were *all* full :shock: - Rob


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## andrewm (11 Oct 2007)

jasonB":c1vjkt3m said:


> In the UK cycling on the footpath is illegal and you could be fined £500 but its one of those laws that are seldom enforced. Also not allowed on public footpaths but bridalways are OK.
> Jason



I think you will find that cycling on a footpath that does not run parallel to a road (a pavement) is actually legal unless signs indicate otherwise.



Roger Sinden":c1vjkt3m said:


> Bikes belong on the roads.



Here, here. The problem is that a lot of councils think that putting up a blue and white sign suddenly makes pavement cycling safe. It doesn’t. But in doing so they are reinforcing the view among less experienced cyclists that the road is dangerous and reinforcing the view amongst drivers that the road is for cars and the bikes should be somewhere else.



Roger Sinden":c1vjkt3m said:


> And don't get me started on bikes who ignore red lights or oneway streets.



I’m not one to condone jumping red light but don’t get me started on drivers who park in cycle lanes 



Smudger":c1vjkt3m said:


> Did you see the news the other day - a guy was killed by a cyclist on the pavement outside of his house. 'Reckless riding' and he'll get a fine of about ninepence.
> http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/h ... _death.php



Actually, as the article makes out he is facing jail. But what is significant about this and why it got the press attention is that it is so rare. As far as I am aware this is the first death caused by a cyclist on a pavement for at least three years. There are far more pedestrians on pavements killed by car drivers every year. So many that they might get a mention in the local rag but don’t usually make it to onto national news. 



Harbo":c1vjkt3m said:


> Going back to Rob's original questions I think cycling is taken very seriously in this Country and if you inquire you will probably find that your Local Authority will have a "Cycling Policy" and be looking at ways of creating safe cycle routes within its boundaries



They will indeed have a cycling policy but will be looking for ways of ticking all the boxes and being able to proudly proclaim that they have created x miles of cycle facilities. This will be done for the smallest amount of taxpayers money and usually consists of painting white lines on the road or putting signs on the pavement. Often these are worse than useless and often they are told that by local cyclists but the schemes go ahead. Some the worst examples can be found here (although ironically this month’s is in France, not far from the Swiss border) but there are plenty of others. I can think of at least two places where I cycle regularly where a cycle lane puts the cyclist in direct danger of being knocked of their bike by someone opening a car door. The highway code gives specific advice to cyclists about riding next to parked carts and advises that the cyclist should leave enough room for a door to be opened. But that means riding outside of the lane and leaves them open to abuse from drivers because they should ‘use the f***ing cycle lane’

The Department of Transport has issued guidelines about the implementation of cycle facilities but I can’t of the top of my head think of any that even meet the minimum requirements. Cycle facilities in this country are a joke and we would be better off without them.

Andrew


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## RogerS (11 Oct 2007)

Does it say something about the pace of life in Switzerland compared to over here? That the pace is more leisurely and people aren't always in a desperate hurry to get from A to B ? 

But then again perhaps that's overly simplistic as I remember that the pace of life in Indian cities seemed just as hectic as in the UK, the roads are crowded to overflowing with bikes, rickshaws and tuk tuks but very few cars. It looks like mayhem but then everyone makes way and accomodates everyone else.

Perhaps it is just a reflection of the 'me ..me..me' society that seems to purvey most of what I see around me in the UK.


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## woodbloke (11 Oct 2007)

Roger Sinden":19rzjohn said:


> Does it say something about the pace of life in Switzerland compared to over here? That the pace is more leisurely and people aren't always in a desperate hurry to get from A to B ?
> 
> But then again perhaps that's overly simplistic as I remember that the pace of life in Indian cities seemed just as hectic as in the UK, the roads are crowded to overflowing with bikes, rickshaws and tuk tuks but very few cars. It looks like mayhem but then everyone makes way and accomodates everyone else.
> 
> Perhaps it is just a reflection of the 'me ..me..me' society that seems to purvey most of what I see around me in the UK.



Rog - The pace of life in Switzerland, from my _very_ limited experience, is little different to the UK, but there is far less traffic, driving on their excellent motorways is on a par with the UK (not the M25 tho' :wink... I feel you may have a point tho' with your last comment - Rob


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## andrewm (11 Oct 2007)

woodbloke":qph888mt said:


> Rog - The pace of life in Switzerland, from my _very_ limited experience, is little different to the UK, but there is far less traffic



Is this perhaps due to their exemplary railway system?

Andrew


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## woodbloke (11 Oct 2007)

Andrewm wrote -


> Is this perhaps due to their exemplary railway system?



Very probably, yes. As the trains come into the station, the polish on the carriages is so high that you can see your face in them and all the trains and cog railways we went on were the same.
We were buying tickets for the Zermatt shuttle (Zermatt is car free and can only be accessed by train) and were advised by the ticket office to make sure we were not late as the train would leave on time. It did...to the second. I fancy the rail system in the UK has a lot to learn - Rob


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## RogerS (11 Oct 2007)

woodbloke":1u8b1l96 said:


> I fancy the rail system in the UK has a lot to learn - Rob



Quite possibly but I think that we too could have an exemplary rail system if we (a) had the same population as Switzerland and (b) ran as few trains per day as they do.


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## MrJay (20 Nov 2007)

A little, but somewhat inspiring, video about bicycle/pedestrian/people friendly town planning in Portland, USA. There are mini-documentaries on youtube and elsewhere about Copenhagen and Amsterdam if your get excited and want more more more. People can do pretty smart things when they engage their brains (and legs) \o/


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## Terry Smart (20 Nov 2007)

MrJay":mutcehwf said:


> Roger Sinden":mutcehwf said:
> 
> 
> > Wonder if anyone can tell me the logic/reason for those brown boxes that span the entire road width at some traffic lights. The ones with a cycle in.
> ...



I'd always wondered about these too, based on the fact that many cyclists ingore the red lights anyway and this answer made a lot of sense and made me feel a lot better about it... until this weekend that is when (in Brighton, although I don't know if that has any bearing) I saw a lot of these boxes at traffic lights where there isn't a right turn!


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## MrJay (20 Nov 2007)

I can't comment on themthar specific junctions, but it wouldn't be a big surprise if bike lanes are badly conceived/implemented in a UK town.


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## big (20 Nov 2007)

MrJay":1hxufw89 said:


> I can't comment on themthar specific junctions, but it wouldn't be a big surprise if bike lanes are badly conceived/implemented in a UK town.


Aye.. In London, frinstance, you can bypass the Bayswater Road by using Hyde Park cycle lanes. Until, of course, you get to Kensington Gardens where you can't cycle. And if you do Police will chase you across the park in a van to ensure you get fined for it!
{this may no longer be true as I haven't lived in London for 5 years - a m8 of mine was fined £60 then!}

Nowadays I do most of my riding on pavements, well, to be more accurate bridleways, BOATs and RUPPs in our local forests. Who needs smelly old London!


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## andrewm (20 Nov 2007)

big":fnzfmft8 said:


> Nowadays I do most of my riding on pavements, well, to be more accurate bridleways, BOATs and RUPPs in our local forests. Who needs smelly old London!



Which is fine for a leisure cyclist but some people actually use their bikes as a means of transport. Therefore where they need to go dictates where they cycle. There are a lot more of those in London since the congestion charge was introduced. 

Andrew


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## exigetastic (20 Nov 2007)

I've been truly lazy recently wrt to my bikes, but even so clocked up 1500 miles over the last year, mostly commuting.

The thing that gets me is the "integrated transport" nonsense we are seeing now. 

I live on the outskirts of Nottignham, and they have put in a new bypass. However they can't call it a bypass as they aren't supposed to build them any more, so it's been dressed up as integrated transport scheme. 

This means they have put in "bus plugs" (sets of red lights which only turn green for busses), and 10 metres of cycle path so us lycra clad ones don't jump the reds.

However as it means a 2 mile detour for local vehicle traffic that are supposed to use the new road, a large number of people now just ignore the red lights. The rest of the inspired scheme is painting white lines on the footpaths, with pictures of bikes on :roll: 

I've so nearly come a croper of people reversing off driveways, I take my chances on the road.

This leads to minor road rage, as inevitably I'm passing stationary cars , that feel I should be on the pavement.

Si


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## woodbloke (21 Nov 2007)

Interestingly, there was a bit in the news last week about the cyclist who was jailed (I think) for cycling on the pavement and causing death to a pedestrian when he hit him.
I've accepted the inevitable now and cycle on the roads but I wear the full hi-viz daeglo cagoule so at least motorists can see me coming.
Didn't envy Hammond on his cycle ride across the Smoke on TG the other night :shock: ....least he beat Clarkeson this time  - Rob


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## mr (21 Nov 2007)

woodbloke":18i7u0dp said:


> Interestingly, there was a bit in the news last week about the cyclist who was jailed (I think) for cycling on the pavement and causing death to a pedestrian when he hit him.



12 months suspended and 300 hours community service I think, if we're talking about the same case.
If it has wheels and is a mode of transport it belongs on the road and should very probably be licensed as well - without licensing there is no form of sanction when required. 

Cheers Mike


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## big (21 Nov 2007)

woodbloke":3ukmxo9y said:


> Didn't envy Hammond on his cycle ride across the Smoke on TG the other night :shock: ....least he beat Clarkeson this time  - Rob


With practice it's very safe...
I was a cycle courier for a year in London, then I got a "proper" job with 26 mile each way commute (East Ham-Ealing). And in 17 years of cycling on London's roads I only fell off once, and that was due to ice not agreeing with my 20mm tyres!
The secret is to keep your speed up (I used to average around 20mph, more if there was no traffic), hold your position in the lane, and keep your eyes open. It's all very well being dead but in the right when a bus runs into you, tis much better to have anticipated the problem and avoided it..
Perhaps all other drivers should have a month on a pushbike before being allowed to take their tests? :twisted:


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## RogerS (21 Nov 2007)

big":159q5jue said:


> The secret is to keep your speed up (I used to average around 20mph, more if there was no traffic),.......:



Given the number of traffic lights along that route, I have to confess that I'm struggling to work out _how _you could maintain that average speed and _not _jump red lights....but, as ever, open to be convinced that I'm wrong.

Maybe you've got calf muscles the size of Arnies' biceps :wink:


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## big (21 Nov 2007)

Roger Sinden":12pu3zdc said:


> big":12pu3zdc said:
> 
> 
> > The secret is to keep your speed up (I used to average around 20mph, more if there was no traffic),.......:
> ...


My only means of transport for years was the bike - and the scret of keeping up good speeds is anticipation.. I also rarely rode in the gutter - I'd overtake cars on the right like a motorbike.
My record for Ealing to East Ham was 58 minutes, set on a Sunday morning at 7am.. And I never arrived anywhere not bathed completely in sweat!


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## andrewm (21 Nov 2007)

Roger Sinden":1pht8ur2 said:


> big":1pht8ur2 said:
> 
> 
> > The secret is to keep your speed up (I used to average around 20mph, more if there was no traffic),.......:
> ...



I think Hammond is a keen cyclist anyway so probably quite capable at maintaining a good speed. You don't need 'calf muscles the size of Arnies' biceps' if you are small and fit and riding a very lightweight carbon-fibre bike. Was it ia Bianchi?

Andrew


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## andrewm (21 Nov 2007)

mr":3kfu224j said:


> woodbloke":3kfu224j said:
> 
> 
> > Interestingly, there was a bit in the news last week about the cyclist who was jailed (I think) for cycling on the pavement and causing death to a pedestrian when he hit him.
> ...



I assume you would apply that to roller skates and pushchairs as well.


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## mr (21 Nov 2007)

Roller skates used by anything other than a small child- absolutely. Anything with wheels that allows an adult to move at a potentially dangerous velocity in the vicinity of pedestrians. 

Cheers Mike


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## andrewm (21 Nov 2007)

mr":25luyv5f said:


> Roller skates used by anything other than a small child- absolutely. Anything with wheels that allows an adult to move at a potentially dangerous velocity in the vicinity of pedestrians.
> 
> Cheers Mike



Ahhh, now you are changing the 'rules'. Define adult, define 'potentially dangerous velocity', define vicinity.

Andrew


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