# Low back welsh chair build



## ro (5 Nov 2017)

Well, its been a very, very, very long time since my last post, but I've recently started to get back into woodwork, so I thought I'd share my latest project.

After reading about low roman workbenches on the Lost Art Press blog (https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/08/06/a-well-oiled-roman/) I got a little infatuated by the idea and had to make one. A trip to Yandles netted me a slab of lime and some ash for the legs. A quick flattening of the slab with a jack plane, ripping to width, boring 4 x 40mm holes (blooming hard work with an 8 inch brace) and turning up some legs later and I had this











Anyway, the plan is to make a low back version of the 2 high back chairs above, using the low workbench instead of my normal one. Now, I hate ripping, so I'm going to use my bandsaw for that, and I haven't decided whether I'll turn or shave the spindles. But apart from that, I want to explore workholding on this low bench. Currently the bench only has 2 peg holes at the end to give me a planing stop, but I'm sure I'll add more as I find out what I need.

So, while I was at Yandles, I managed to grab a lump of sycamore for the seat





The first job was to cut it to width. The bench excels at this. It's the same height as my saw benches so all I had to do was put one at the end and saw away. The extra length of the low bench made it much easier than using two smaller saw benches.





After checking for cupping and wind, i found one corner was higher than the rest, so a bit of work with the jack plane removed that. No clamping was necessary, I simply sat on the part of the slab that i wasn't planing! 





As I mentioned before, I hate ripping, so I used my tracksaw to establish a nice clean edge on one side. Again, the bench acted like a big, stable, saw horse.





From here I needed to crosscut the piece into 2 equal halves and join them together along the edge I had just sawn to give me a blank for the seat. The sawn edge needed to be jointed and this gave me my first workholding problem. I would normally put the piece into the vice on my normal bench and edge joint it with a plane, but here I had no vice and the piece wouldn't balance on the opposite edge.





So, I bored a couple of holes 4 inches apart, turned up a couple of pegs with square tops and cut a wedge with a 1 in 5 slope out of some scrap oak.





Placing the piece against one of the pegs i used the wedge to hold it fast. This worked better than I had hoped, although the wedge needed a bit of hammering to get it to stay. Next time I'll try a wedge with a 1 in 6 slope and see if that holds any easier.





To release the wedge, I knocked the end of the workpiece with a lump hammer. The lightest of taps released the wedge's hold. I'm definitely going to use this method again. If anything it's easier and quicker to set up than a face vice and planing with one knee on the bench was really comfortable.

Leaving the waney edges on made for an "interesting" glue up. I could not get clamps to pull flat and at least once considered ripping the edges square, but I want to see i I can incorporate the natural edges in the design. 
In the end I used an embarrassing number of clamps and blocks to hold it together.





Next, the legs!


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## custard (5 Nov 2017)

An interesting read, thank you.

Good luck with your project!


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## AndyT (6 Nov 2017)

Thanks for that, it's always interesting to see other approaches to woodworking being explored in a real life project.

I found myself wondering if the Romans would have needed to glue up narrow boards and how they would have done it, without all those clamps.
Guesswork only, but I would assume that they did need to edge-glue narrow boards - big trees are always going to have been rarer and harder to fell and convert.
Older "modern" books show the use of hot glue, a rubbed joint and a pair of joiner's dogs for situations like this - I wonder if that's what they would have done?


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## custard (6 Nov 2017)

AndyT":1m51g54s said:


> I found myself wondering if the Romans would have needed to glue up narrow boards



Interesting point. When I visited Pompeii and Herculaneum I was surprised at the quality of the preserved joinery and furniture, I'd been expecting Barney Rubble style woodworking but it all looked pretty sophisticated. I can't recall seeing edge jointed boards specifically but, given that hide glue dates back to antiquity and would likely be cheaper than handmade nails, I can't see any reason why not.


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## ro (6 Nov 2017)

AndyT":epesrlpl said:


> Older "modern" books show the use of hot glue, a rubbed joint and a pair of joiner's dogs for situations like this - I wonder if that's what they would have done?





custard":epesrlpl said:


> given that hide glue dates back to antiquity and would likely be cheaper than handmade nails, I can't see any reason why not.


Interesting! I've never tried rubbed glue joints. I wonder if they are as strong as clamped ones. If so, I'd save myself a load of bother with clamps.



custard":epesrlpl said:


> When I visited Pompeii and Herculaneum I was surprised at the quality of the preserved joinery and furniture


Oh god, I think you've started me on another research rabbit hole...


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## AndyT (6 Nov 2017)

If you don't mind a bit more topic drift, may I suggest this old thread - I think it's a good example of the collective forum wisdom being brought to bear on a historical example.

work-like-a-roman-t84609.html


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## ro (6 Nov 2017)

I'm definitely up for a bit of topic drift. That is a fascinating thread - rabbit hole central  

Anyway, on with the legs while the seat glues up...

I'm cutting the legs out of 2 inch ash with fairly straight grain. I've made a quick template out of MDF to make it quicker to mark out identical legs. The ash wasn't quite wide enough to cut 4 pieces out, so I staggered them slightly length wise to gain a bit more width. Marking up on this low bench is a joy, you can get your body right over the workpiece.




I then cut the pieces out freehand on the bandsaw, A small wedge inserted into the kerf allowed me to back the blade out.





I had already added 2 pegs at one end of the bench to act as planing stops, so removing the bandsaw marks was simply a case of popping one of the pegs up slightly and planing towards it.




Bizarrely I found that while I was doing this my legs started aching. It's almost as if I'm using the muscles in my legs to help move the plane. Apart from that, it was really easy to plane like this, sitting behind the workpiece meant that I could really power through the stroke.

Woot! 4 square tapered legs!





Next, octagonalising them. I made up a couple of cradles to support the legs on their corners. The first time I used them, they kept moving over the surface of the bench, so I glued a bit of leather on the bottom to add some friction. I planed down the corners with a jack plane with a cambered iron, taking a really coarse cut. It only took about 5 passes to take the corners down to where the legs looked octagonal. Then I put a finish cut on all the faces with a low angle jack with the mouth set really tightly.








Woot! 4 octagonal tapered legs!





The top of the legs will have a tapered tenon to plug into the seat. The tenons were roughed out on the lathe and then refined using a tenon cutter (built using these instructions). it works like a giant pencil sharpener, and is THE most fun tool ever!








Woot! 4 tapered tenons!


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## marcros (6 Nov 2017)

custard":1qd75pe0 said:


> AndyT":1qd75pe0 said:
> 
> 
> > I found myself wondering if the Romans would have needed to glue up narrow boards
> ...



I thought that the scorched finish was a modern fashion?!


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## Jacob (6 Nov 2017)

Nice stuff.
Have you seen John Brown "Welsh Stick Chairs" ? He was the guru, died a bit back but his magazine articles are around still.
He didn't like turning - everything draw knifed, spoke shaved etc.






His book is highly collectable. Hmm I've got a signed first edition somewhere!


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## ro (6 Nov 2017)

Jacob":33ml84iw said:


> Nice stuff.
> Have you seen John Brown "Welsh Stick Chairs" ? He was the guru, died a bit back but his magazine articles are around still.
> He didn't like turning - everything draw knifed, spoke shaved etc.



Thanks. Yeah, my design is basically stolen from that book. It's inspirational stuff. Maybe next time I will try shaving the tenons. Maybe I can figure out some kind of shaving horse arrangement for the low bench.


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## custard (6 Nov 2017)

marcros":1hi9zc29 said:


> I thought that the scorched finish was a modern fashion?!



:lol:


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## El Barto (6 Nov 2017)

This is great. Very enjoyable and inspiring reading. Is there a reason you didn't go for four legs at each end like the bench in the blog? I prefer yours, incidentally.

And Custard, those Roman examples are pretty astonishing...!


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## ro (6 Nov 2017)

El Barto":yaplh8hx said:


> This is great. Very enjoyable and inspiring reading. Is there a reason you didn't go for four legs at each end like the bench in the blog? I prefer yours, incidentally.


Thank you very much 
My bench is much shorter than Chris Schwarz's as my workshop doesn't have space for his 85" model! And I thought that 8 legs would probably cramp the space underneath.

However, after using it, I do find that my legs are hunting for something to push against when planing, so I might be tempted to add an extra pair of legs to one end.

It might look wierd, but there's only one way to find out!


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## El Barto (7 Nov 2017)

Is there a tutorial online for Chris's workbench? I was going to make something similar (as a regular bench, not to work on) but seeing that I'd like to have a go at it.


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## AndyT (7 Nov 2017)

El Barto":3ng0xgt1 said:


> Is there a tutorial online for Chris's workbench? I was going to make something similar (as a regular bench, not to work on) but seeing that I'd like to have a go at it.



There's plenty on his blog at Popular Woodworking - start here and read back https://www.popularwoodworking.com/work ... orkbenches

But if that's not enough detail you can wait until his next book appears from Lost Art Press, some time next year, which will cover the Roman style workbench exhaustively. 

[Btw, years ago when we needed a long bench for a children's party, I knocked up a couple out of softwood offcuts and some old kitchen worktop. They were fine for sitting on and for several years afterwards I used to use them for sawing and so on - they shared some of the virtues shown by ro in his build. But then I got a "proper" vice and adopted normal western woodworking habits.  ]


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## El Barto (7 Nov 2017)

AndyT":w1pbqseq said:


> El Barto":w1pbqseq said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a tutorial online for Chris's workbench? I was going to make something similar (as a regular bench, not to work on) but seeing that I'd like to have a go at it.
> ...



Tempted to get the Roman Workbenches book as a PDF, only a tenner or so.


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## ro (7 Nov 2017)

El Barto":3bl8rbjd said:


> Is there a tutorial online for Chris's workbench? I was going to make something similar (as a regular bench, not to work on) but seeing that I'd like to have a go at it.



There is a book which describes how to build and use them - the PDF version is $15, well worth it in my opinion. 
See https://lostartpress.com/collections/books/products/roman-workbenches-letterpress-edition and change the version to PDF.


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## AndyT (7 Nov 2017)

Sorry, I thought he was still working on the book. You might need to update your £/$ exchange rate though.


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## ro (7 Nov 2017)

I think he's working on the next version of the book with more detail. This one is very short, but still really useful.


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## El Barto (7 Nov 2017)

AndyT":3fe5qjgz said:


> Sorry, I thought he was still working on the book. You might need to update your £/$ exchange rate though.








Ok if we're being pedantic. Think this falls under a tenner or so.


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## AndyT (7 Nov 2017)

Ok, I'd not checked the actual rate - but there have been lots of recent news stories about likely dollar-pound parity - I reckon you should be ok if you get your order in quick!


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## El Barto (7 Nov 2017)

AndyT":vlsfnzew said:


> Ok, I'd not checked the actual rate - but there have been lots of recent news stories about likely dollar-pound parity - I reckon you should be ok if you get your order in quick!



It's still not quite a good enough rate to order the letterpressed book


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## fiveeyes (8 Nov 2017)

ro...next time on that sort of glue-up, try string, or some sort of cordage. To tension, insert a length of dowel, and twist. Should be able to get 2 or 3 'sticks' on each side..to balance the tension. YMMV


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## DTR (8 Nov 2017)

Watching with interest, both for the chair making and the work-holding! 

I too am curious about the so-called Roman workbenches. In the summer I enjoyed working whilst sat on a sawhorse in the garden, it had potential....


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## ro (8 Nov 2017)

fiveeyes":2ldffr12 said:


> ro...next time on that sort of glue-up, try string, or some sort of cordage. To tension, insert a length of dowel, and twist. Should be able to get 2 or 3 'sticks' on each side..to balance the tension. YMMV


Genius! I'll definitely try that next time!

Right, back to the seat...

After removing the multitude of clamps, I pushed it against the planing stops at the end of the bench and traversed it with the cambered jack.
In the book, Chris recommends using your knees to hold the workpiece against the stops, but I could not hold it tightly enough to take deep cuts anywhere but right in the centre, so I banged a wedge and peg in using the holes I had made earlier.






I smoothed one side roughly with the low angle jack, but left the other side rough as it will not be on display.
Again, I have made a template for the seat out of MDF so I can easily work out how to get the best grain at the front. After all the clamping faff earlier with natural edges, I decided that I couldn't use them AND get the grain in the right place (there is a lovely but of curly grain which I wanted to place at the front of the seat). Oh well :roll:





OK, so now it's marked I cut it freehand on the bandsaw - can I just say how great the Tuffsaws 3/4 tpi premium blade in 1/2 inch is as a general purpose blade. even freehand, a couple of swipes from a plane leaves a finished cut and I use it on anything from 1/2 inch to 4 inch stock.





The blank!





OK, so next I need to refine the edges with a spokeshave. The wedge solution from earlier if perfect here.





Slightly more tricky was balancing it on the curved section and planing down to the line. In the end I textured one side of the wedge with the bandsaw to increase holding power and wedged a piece of wood fore and aft of the wedge:








This still wasn't perfect, if I took anything other than the lightest of cuts, it would lift out of the wedge.
Has anyone got any bright ideas for a better way to hold this? I'm going to need to do this again when I chamfer the edges.

The template has the leg positions and sightlines marked on it, so i simply transfer them over with a pencil









Taping a bevel gauge at the right angle (14 degrees for the front legs and 25 for the rear) along the sightlines gives me an angle to follow when drilling with an extra long 16mm auger in the hand brace. The extra length of the auger makes it much easier to follow the bevel gauge.


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## ro (8 Nov 2017)

Repeating this process with a Veritas Tapered Reamer with an 8mm hex extension attached (to aid with lining up with the bevel)





Quickly bang the legs into place and we have a stool!
Stand back and check that the legs look like they're at the right angles. 




Close enough!

On to shaping the seat recess.
To clamp it in the middle of the bench, I bored a couple more holes (6 inches apart) and used the pegs and wedge to hold the seat. I then marked out a 2 inch area not to hollow for the spindles and a small area to go between the sitter's legs.





I could then attack the seat with an inshave. Starting at the back where i want the deepest hollow and moving forward. I found that it was better to put the wedge against the curved section and the straight bit against the pegs as this stopped the seat rotating. Having the seat held in the center of the bench like this meant that I could work from either side, across the grain. Again, this was a lot less tiring than standing at a high bench to do this. I'll be using this bench again for hollowing seats!





Here's the roughed out seat, it's hard to tell from the picture, but the hollow if about 1/2 inch at the back to about 1/4 at the front.





I need to sharpen my inshave and hone it to a razor edge to refine the shape.


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## AndyT (8 Nov 2017)

It's no help now, but next time I expect you will plane that edge _before_ you round off the back on the bandsaw!

Seriously though, this is fascinating stuff. You can do so much with pegs and wedges.


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## ro (8 Nov 2017)

AndyT":3ruvad18 said:


> It's no help now, but next time I expect you will plane that edge _before_ you round off the back on the bandsaw!


HAHAHA! You are SO right!  

Hindsight is 20/20!


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## custard (8 Nov 2017)

ro":2alsekhy said:


> This still wasn't perfect, if I took anything other than the lightest of cuts, it would lift out of the wedge.
> Has anyone got any bright ideas for a better way to hold this? I'm going to need to do this again when I chamfer the edges.



Lay the seat flat on your bench (supported by a bit of stuff to raise it a 1/4" or 1/2" off the bench surface), then flip your plane on its side and plane the seat's edge that way. In other words tip the entire arrangement you currently have through 90 degrees.

If you read this post you'll get the general idea,

edge-jointing-thin-stock-t106666.html?hilit=edge%20jointing

This is more about using the technique for edge jointing thin boards, but it'll work equally well on thicker boards.

Incidentally, interesting article in today's paper about Roman woodwork...but they threw the benches away!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... oomberg-hq


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## nabs (8 Nov 2017)

great stuff - are you finding yourself using it as a seat for any other tasks? I occasionally declutter my saw horse (which of course is generally upended and covered in tools!) and use it as a seat and it is very comfortable for some tasks (e.g chiseling out). Is this part of the attraction for a very low bench?


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## El Barto (8 Nov 2017)

Thanks for the update. making good progress! Is this chair another of Chris Schwarz's designs?


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## xy mosian (8 Nov 2017)

It is very good to watch the work methods of others. Especially when the 'other' is learning and explaining as work progresses. 
I like the way the bench is being refined as needed rather than to an estimated future need.
I wonder if you will have some little trouble finding a surface for the bevel if drilling any arm, or back, supports at an angle?

Smashing viewing, good on you.
xy


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## ro (8 Nov 2017)

custard":3t1qvgcl said:


> Lay the seat flat on your bench (supported by a bit of stuff to raise it a 1/4" or 1/2" off the bench surface), then flip your plane on its side and plane the seat's edge that way. In other words tip the entire arrangement you currently have through 90 degrees
> ....
> Incidentally, interesting article in today's paper about Roman woodwork...but they threw the benches away!



AWESOME! Love that idea. I've also got an idea from Mike Abbott's Green Woodworking that involves turning the bench on it's side...

I hope to try both out tomorrow. This new present from the UPS fairy should help...







nabs":3t1qvgcl said:


> great stuff - are you finding yourself using it as a seat for any other tasks?


It's great for sitting on and drinking beer :wink: 



El Barto":3t1qvgcl said:


> Thanks for the update. making good progress! Is this chair another of Chris Schwarz's designs?


Well, the method for boring the leg holes is stolen from his Anarchists Design Book, the method for making the arm was stolen from Drew Langsner's Chairmaker's Workshop and the overall design was blatantly nicked from John Brown as mentioned earlier!



xy mosian":3t1qvgcl said:


> I wonder if you will have some little trouble finding a surface for the bevel if drilling any arm, or back, supports at an angle?


I have a little modern day trick up my sleeve for this. Although maybe using lasers is cheating a bit when using a roman workbench...


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## El Barto (8 Nov 2017)

ro":2h4wqmmp said:


> Well, the method for boring the leg holes is stolen from his Anarchists Design Book, the method for making the arm was stolen from Drew Langsner's Chairmaker's Workshop and the overall design was blatantly nicked from John Brown as mentioned earlier!



Interesting. Got Lost Art's Chairmaker's Notebook in the post to me at the moment but might have to check that out too...


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## xy mosian (9 Nov 2017)

ro":2dxswb1x said:


> xy mosian":2dxswb1x said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if you will have some little trouble finding a surface for the bevel if drilling any arm, or back, supports at an angle?
> ...



OO! That sounds fancy. I'm full of eager anticipation.
xy


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## AndyT (9 Nov 2017)

I just remembered that there's a Woodwright's Shop episode in which Chris Schwarz talks with Roy Underhill about his Roman workbench.

http://video.unctv.org/video/2365788037/

Sorry for continuing the thread drift but I thought it might be welcome.


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## El Barto (9 Nov 2017)

AndyT":1z9sa5vj said:


> I just remembered that there's a Woodwright's Shop episode in which Chris Schwarz talks with Roy Underhill about his Roman workbench.
> 
> http://video.unctv.org/video/2365788037/
> 
> Sorry for continuing the thread drift but I thought it might be welcome.



Cool!


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## ro (9 Nov 2017)

AndyT":sjdl8zxd said:


> ...Sorry for continuing the thread drift but I thought it might be welcome.


Drift all you like, that's an awesome link. I'll give it a watch tonight.



custard":sjdl8zxd said:


> Lay the seat flat on your bench (supported by a bit of stuff to raise it a 1/4" or 1/2" off the bench surface), then flip your plane on its side and plane the seat's edge that way. In other words tip the entire arrangement you currently have through 90 degrees.


So, I didn't need to do this as I had already planed the seat front, but it seemed like such a good idea I had to give it a go (and I wanted an excuse to try out my new holdfast)




Firstly, the holdfast works brilliantly! I can't believe I have never used one before. One quick tap on the top and it locked the seat against the planing stop. A tap on the back and it released. Just amazing!

Custard's method worked well too, I was able to take nice deep cuts (with the added bonus that I knew they were 100% square). However, I found it difficult to get much power behind the plane, the tote is at the wrong angle and I was having to grip the body of the plane. This meant that I didn't get a good grip.

I tried switching from the low angle jack to a standard Record #5 plane and I found that my fingers wrapped themselves around the frog and cap iron, almost like an ersatz handle.
This works much better, but does mean that I'll have to sharpen up a non cambered iron for the #5.

I'm definitely using this method again for edge jointing boards on the low bench.

Next, while flicking through Mike Abbott's book "Green Woodwork" he mentions clamping a seat to the face of his bench and then pushing the bench over on it's side.
Again, I had to try this method




I had to perch on the thin edge of the bench, but it works well. It allowed me to get more power behind the stroke than Custard's method but was more of a pain in the bum (literally :lol: ) to set up.

I think both these methods have their uses and I'm sure I'll be using both again in the future.

Anyway, enough procrastinating. I'm off to sharpen my inshave.


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## Racers (10 Nov 2017)

Have you tried kneeling sideways on the bench with the seat bottom clamped between your legs, it it is sticking out the barest amount it shouldn't try and turn.

Pete


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## ro (11 Nov 2017)

Racers":1ydb29eh said:


> Have you tried kneeling sideways on the bench with the seat bottom clamped between your legs, it it is sticking out the barest amount it shouldn't try and turn.


Nice idea! I'll give that a go when I chamfer the sides of the seat.

So, after getting the inshave to razor sharpness, I was still getting tearout in the sycamore




(you can see I've changed to a double wedge for extra holding power, and a bit of leather between the peg and wedge stops it moving at all)

I needed something slightly more controlled than the inshave, so I decided to make a quick excursion into plane making territory. I have always fancied trying to make a plane, and after reading Paul Sellers' series on making a curve-soled plane I thought I'd give it a go.

I started with a spare blade from my block plane and a lump of ash left over from the legs.





Cut to size on the bandsaw





I then cut and planed the bed and marked the bed line for one side of the wedge mortise on the side wall. I'm finding myself using the holdfast more and more for small clamping operations.





Cut out a wedge and planed it smooth. The plane kept hitting the bench whenI was planing the angle, so I just put it on an offcut and raised the plane stop to meet it.





Then placed the wedge and blade against the bed and marked out the other side of the wedge mortise on the side wall.





I tried to deepen the scribed lines with a chisel by pushing it against the planing stop, but it kept moving and I couldn't keep it under control





After stopping for a cuppa, I came up with the idea of putting a notched stick on the planing stops




This worked! in fact, I was going to saw the lines down and then use a chisel to remove the waste, but it was so easy to lean into the chisel that I just knifed the lines deeper and chiselled to them a couple of times and all the waste popped out.
I just had to flatten the bottom with a chisel





Glued and clamped up (I cheated and used clamps instead of trying to figure out how to use pegs and wedges!)


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## ro (11 Nov 2017)

Next I cut a large 6" radius curve on the bottom with the bandsaw and then spokeshaved the sides down to a 3" radius.






I then tried lots of ways to transfer the shape of the bed to the blade, but in the end I just wedged the blade into the plane and put it on the belt sander until the blade was level with the bed.





I then sharpened the blade freehand on diamond stones and honed it.

Shaped the wedge, again using the notched stick so I could use a diagonal cut with the chisel





I grabbed a piece of scrap softwood and tried it




IT WORKS!!!

A bit of knifework to ease the edges and corners





And a bit of wax on the outside. It's not pretty but it works nicely. The mouth occasionally clogs up, but a little work with the knife should fix that.


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## AndyT (11 Nov 2017)

Wow, that's resourceful!

I've only ever shaped the seat of a chair once, on a short green woodworking course at Clisset Wood. I learnt two things that might help you with your inshave.

One thing was that the inshave cuts best when used across the grain. Not what I expected, but it seemed to be true.

The second thing is that there is a subtle relationship between the curve along the blade, the sharpening bevel across the blade and the positioning of the handles. On the course, there was a selection of inshaves, all slightly different. If one of us was having trouble getting a clean cut, sometimes swapping to one of the other shaves made a huge difference. Maybe more experienced workers can always make their shave work across all species and grain patterns - chairmakers are famous for using a very minimal toolkit - but swapping tools helped us beginners. 

I expect you will be using your new plane for the rest of the job!


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## ro (11 Nov 2017)

AndyT":27um5io1 said:


> One thing was that the inshave cuts best when used across the grain. Not what I expected, but it seemed to be true.
> 
> The second thing is that there is a subtle relationship between the curve along the blade, the sharpening bevel across the blade and the positioning of the handles. On the course, there was a selection of inshaves, all slightly different. If one of us was having trouble getting a clean cut, sometimes swapping to one of the other shaves made a huge difference. Maybe more experienced workers can always make their shave work across all species and grain patterns - chairmakers are famous for using a very minimal toolkit - but swapping tools helped us beginners.



Yeah, so I am working across the grain. I found out the hard way that it digs in like heck when you work along the grain  

As for your second point, I'm limited to one inshave. Maybe I should take a course and try other tools and techniques, would you recommend the course you went on?

Just a quick update, I found the plane worked best when I pulled it towards me. I balanced it on the bed just in front of the mouth and lowered the back as I pulled it towards me until the blade just started cutting





I have to say, I'm impressed with the surface the plane leaves behind, it's not perfect, but it's more than good enough to be refined with a scraper. This is the surface straight off the plane


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## Jacob (11 Nov 2017)

Not my thing but I have done as tiny bit. I think your plane might be good for finishing but too small a bite for hollowing and removing a lot of stuff. Your surface looks nibbled more than gouged if you see what I mean


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## xy mosian (11 Nov 2017)

Interesting that I do not have an inshave and came to the same solution. Mine shown here, note the handles for use on the pull stroke. 



As a follow up I made a scraper, the extra knob allows for some extra weight to the cut, blade from a hardpoint saw.




Strange that it looks very similar to a Veritas scraper.

Thanks for the update. I hope you are enjoying the whole affair.
xy


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## ro (11 Nov 2017)

xy mosian":30d623c4 said:


> Interesting that I do not have an inshave and came to the same solution. Mine shown here, note the handles for use on the pull stroke
> As a follow up I made a scraper, the extra knob allows for some extra weight to the cut, blade from a hardpoint saw
> Strange that it looks very similar to a Veritas scraper.
> 
> ...


Wow! What a coincidence, thanks for sharing. Can I pester you with a couple of questions?

How large is the mouth on your plane? I'm wondering if I should increase the size of mine.

Do you sharpen your scraper flat across and then burnish? 

I love the look of the scraper, I'll have to make up one. But after I finish the chair.


----------



## xy mosian (11 Nov 2017)

ro":1c9sn9t2 said:


> xy mosian":1c9sn9t2 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting that I do not have an inshave and came to the same solution. Mine shown here, note the handles for use on the pull stroke
> ...



No problem at all.
I'll find the plane tomorrow take an image, or two, and measure the mouth. Of course the geometry of the curved sole means that the mouth is wider towards the side of the iron.

As for the scraper I found that it is easier to use with the handle at some angle to to surface being scraped. Therefore the scraper edge is at about 45 degrees before burnishing, Again hopefully images tomorrow, meanwhile as I said earlier this is suprisingly similar.  http://veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ ... 3380AI.PDF

xy


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## Sheffield Tony (11 Nov 2017)

A travisher is the tool you are looking for.


----------



## AndyT (12 Nov 2017)

ro":2pn9picm said:


> As for your second point, I'm limited to one inshave. Maybe I should take a course and try other tools and techniques, would you recommend the course you went on?



Definitely. If you want to have a go at green woodworking, it makes sense to go somewhere with lots of trees, a shelter, a kitchen, all the tools and equipment and experienced, friendly tutors.
I had the extra advantage of perfect midsummer weather so we could work to the sound of birdsong and talk all evening as the sun went down.

I just checked the website at http://www.greenwoodwork.co.uk and the courses for next season are almost all booked up, but there are plenty of similar venues around the country.


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## xy mosian (12 Nov 2017)

As Tony said earlier, a Travisher would be the way to go. After all it's only a Pull Shave with sole man!
Images as promised:-



The sole of the plane is 55mm x 75mm, the blade is 39mm wide, and the mouth has 2mm clearance on the blade at its narrowest.




I included the rear end button shot to give some idea of the angle of the handles on this non too pretty plane.

Sorry I couldn't put my hands on the scaper but the Veritas link has all the details.

Keep up the good work with the chair and bench.
xy


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## Jacob (13 Nov 2017)

A travisher or similar for finishing but the bulk of the waste removal needs adze, and/or big gouge plus big mallet IMHO.


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## ro (14 Nov 2017)

AndyT":3823p4xt said:


> Definitely. If you want to have a go at green woodworking, it makes sense to go somewhere with lots of trees, a shelter, a kitchen, all the tools and equipment and experienced, friendly tutors.
> I had the extra advantage of perfect midsummer weather so we could work to the sound of birdsong and talk all evening as the sun went down.
> I just checked the website at http://www.greenwoodwork.co.uk and the courses for next season are almost all booked up, but there are plenty of similar venues around the country.


Thanks, I'll look at booking one!



xy mosian":3823p4xt said:


> As Tony said earlier, a Travisher would be the way to go. After all it's only a Pull Shave with sole man!
> Images as promised:...
> The sole of the plane is 55mm x 75mm, the blade is 39mm wide, and the mouth has 2mm clearance on the blade at its narrowest.
> ...
> I included the rear end button shot to give some idea of the angle of the handles on this non too pretty plane.


Thanks for the pictures, that's really useful. I think I'll give myself a bit more clearance on the mouth of my plane.



Jacob":3823p4xt said:


> A travisher or similar for finishing but the bulk of the waste removal needs adze, and/or big gouge plus big mallet IMHO.


Any recommendations on a good travisher (or is the Veritas pull shave any good)? And a good adze for shaping seats? I'm dying to try hollowing with an adze!

Anyway, after I had done some smoothing with the new plane I moved the seat up to the end of the bench where the hole spacing allowed me to turn it round to work along the grain instead of along it. Then I used a couple of spokeshaves to ease the front edge. I'm still loving the sitting down to work thing I have going on with this bench. Even for detail work with spokeshaves and scrapers it's nicer than standing up.





Scraping the seat with a goose-neck scraper (I've got to make one like xy's)





A bit of hand sanding and I have a seat that I'm quite happy with!




I seem to have a bit of dark staining at the front which won't plane out (without removing too much material). Does anyone know of any way of removing the dark stain?

Flipped the seat over, held it in place with the holdfast and chamfered the edges with a drawknife and finished them with a spokeshave. Diagonally opposed pegs here stop the seat pivoting on the holdfast.





Put the legs in place and drew round the tops to cut the tenons to length - it's starting to look like a chair!!!





And then DISASTER!!! I glued up the first leg and pounded it into the mortice. I hit it one too many times and the seat split!




I'm pretty sure the air in the shed turned blue at this point!!!

Anyway, after a calming cuppa, I opened up the split a bit by flexing the seat over a wedge and packed the split with glue. Clamps were then applied and fingers tightly crossed...





Wish me luck!!!


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## xy mosian (14 Nov 2017)

Very sorry to read about the seat, those wedges can be visious can't they? Happen to me once then I started just twisting the tenon in, and remembering to wedge the tenon square to the grain of the seat.
xy


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## AndyT (14 Nov 2017)

Good luck!
What a shame. At least you now know how much to hit it and how much is too much.


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## El Barto (14 Nov 2017)

Nooooooooo. Fingers crossed it glues up ok.

As for travishers, I've read good things about these by James Murcell at The Windsor Workshop. Incidentally I'm going on his Crown Windsor course next week so hopefully I can find out first hand :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## custard (14 Nov 2017)

Oh no! What a sickener.

Still you did the right thing and glued up _immediately_, if you'd have left it a few days the exposed surfaces start to oxidise which then weakens the bond. I'm sure it'll be fine when the cramp comes off.


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## Sheffield Tony (14 Nov 2017)

Most folk seem to use the James Mursell travisher. I made my own copy of that design, which is nice to use but has a design flaw; overtightening the iron retaining screws, or leaving them done up tight when stored in a damp place can split through the handles. Remember to loosen them after use.

Ray Iles makes a version which to me looks cruder, but I have never tried using one.

The stain looks like a sticker mark, from when the boards were stacked to season. My last chair had one on the walnut seat. I don't know if it has faded, or whether I've just got better at turning a blind eye to it.

Good luck with the glue-up !


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## Racers (15 Nov 2017)

I cracked the front rail of one of my chairs knocking in the wedges luckily I could get the wedge out, and after squirting glue into the split put a clamp across the it and tapped the wedge in carefully.

Don't underestimate the power of a wedge!

Pete


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## ro (17 Nov 2017)

Thanks All! It turns out that the glue up went fine, after a bit of sanding you can't even see the split  



El Barto":1c7tx11i said:


> Incidentally I'm going on his Crown Windsor course next week so hopefully I can find out first hand :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Cool. Let me know how that goes. I was very tempted by that course too.

So, I took XY's advice and twisted the legs into place instead of tw*tting them with a hammer. the wedges all went in fine. No splits this time!




Levelled the tops on the tenons with a gouge




And I have a stool! It's really comfy. maybe I should make one of these without arms at some point.





Onto the arms:
I smoothed an offcut of sycamore on both sides with the low angle jack and marked out half the arm using a template. I'm trying to put most of the short grain at the back where it will be strengthened by the crown later.




I really need to sweep my floor :roll:

Cut out freehand on the bandsaw leaving the ends over length, just needs finessing





To hold the arms while smoothing them with the spokeshave, I ran a piece of rope through the holes in the bench, put it over the top of the work and pulled the bottom down with my feet.




I've been wanting to try this workholding method out ever since I read about in in Woodworking in Estonia. It turns out to be really handy, quick to use and holds the workpiece really tightly, especially if I use my body as a large "meat peg" on one end of the work. I also found out that I can get better purchase with my feet on the rope if I join the two ends of the rope with a piece of wood:





Smoothed the inside curve with the plane I made earlier. A cork sanding block wedged under the arm allowed me to use the rope for this side too.





I then ripped the arm down the middle on the bandsaw against the high fence





And I have 2 identical arms


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## ro (17 Nov 2017)

As I had left the ends of the pieces over length earlier, I can use these bits to clamp them together while I hold the arms against the back of the chair and decide upon the shape I want.




I then raised the bed of the bandsaw with an offcut of ash and cut a straight line down the middle of the arms




Glued the arms together along the cut line. This is an end grain joint and so will be really weak, but it's really there to make marking out and gluing the crown much easier





Hopefully I'll be able to grab some time over the weekend to finish this off 8)


----------



## Sheffield Tony (17 Nov 2017)

ro":29dijaru said:


> I really need to sweep my floor :roll:


Nah, it looks great. Just don't try any hot work ...

As an APTGW (Association of Pole Lathe Turners and Green Woodworkers) I get that esteemed publication "The Bodger's Gazette", which has a list of green woodworking courses, including chairmaking. So if anyone is desperate to get back to nature with a quieter and more gentle approach to woidworking, I could perhaps scan the relevant bits.


----------



## AndyT (17 Nov 2017)

ro":l2k4j9k6 said:


> To hold the arms while smoothing them with the spokeshave, I ran a piece of rope through the holes in the bench, put it over the top of the work and pulled the bottom down with my feet.
> 
> I've been wanting to try this workholding method out ever since I read about in in Woodworking in Estonia. It turns out to be really handy, quick to use and holds the workpiece really tightly, especially if I use my body as a large "meat peg" on one end of the work. I also found out that I can get better purchase with my feet on the rope if I join the two ends of the rope with a piece of wood:



I do like that! Quick, effective and costs nothing. Clever people those Estonians. 
.


----------



## Jacob (18 Nov 2017)

ro":47rrkkix said:


> ............
> 
> To hold the arms while smoothing them with the spokeshave, I ran a piece of rope through the holes in the bench, put it over the top of the work and pulled the bottom down with my feet.
> 
> I've been wanting to try this workholding method out ever since I read about in in Woodworking in Estonia. It turns out to be really handy, quick to use and holds the workpiece really tightly, especially if I use my body as a large "meat peg" on one end of the work. I also found out that I can get better purchase with my feet on the rope if I join the two ends of the rope with a piece of wood:......


Brilliant! I bought Woodworking in Estonia on-line but haven't really looked at it yet.
Craft trades used to have loads of spiffing wheezes like that - they couldn't get the gadgets everybody buys nowadays!
"Saddlers clam" is similar idea - it stands vertically and the jaws are closed with pressure on the stirrup.


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## ro (19 Nov 2017)

Sheffield Tony":317cda3f said:


> ro":317cda3f said:
> 
> 
> > I really need to sweep my floor :roll:
> ...


I showed your reply to the better half and she rolled her eyes and threatened to ban me from the forum. 



Sheffield Tony":317cda3f said:


> As an APTGW (Association of Pole Lathe Turners and Green Woodworkers) I get that esteemed publication "The Bodger's Gazette", which has a list of green woodworking courses, including chairmaking. So if anyone is desperate to get back to nature with a quieter and more gentle approach to woidworking, I could perhaps scan the relevant bits.


Yes please! I had a course booked earlier in the year with Mike Abbott, but unfortunately work commitments stopped me from being able to attend - I was absolutely gutted. 



Jacob":317cda3f said:


> Brilliant! I bought Woodworking in Estonia on-line but haven't really looked at it yet.
> Craft trades used to have loads of spiffing wheezes like that - they couldn't get the gadgets everybody buys nowadays!
> "Saddlers clam" is similar idea - it stands vertically and the jaws are closed with pressure on the stirrup.


It's definitely worth a read. Loads of great ideas.
Love the look of that "Saddlers clam". I'll have to find an excuse to make one at some point...

Onwards with making the crown...
I laid the arms over the remaining piece of sycamore and marked out the rough outline of the crown, making sure the grain runs along the back.





Cut it out on the bandsaw and then decided on the length I wanted. I then marked off tangents at the ends by lightly holding a square against the edge. I find this takes a couple of goes to get it right. Has anyone got a better way of marking tangents off a curve?





Marked off a radius on each end and kerfed down to the line a couple of times on the bandsaw





And then removed the waste with chisels and gouges - using the "rope vise" again





The crown is simply glued to the top of the arms. I felt guilty for using clamps instead of figuring out some solution using the bench, but life is short and this build is taking ages!





When the glue was set, I used Custard's method of turning the plane on it's side to smooth the back of the arms and crown





Hopefully I'll get the spindles done this afternoon...


----------



## xy mosian (19 Nov 2017)

Cracking looking work, and a good pace too.
I see you are using a combination square. If that includes the bit with two 45 degree arms, one each side of the blade, then the blade is square to the line across the points, if they are the same length, works well on curves well circles anyway. Now that set up might be too much for your present job, but should provide ideas for a smaller version.
I am looking forward to seeing spindles.

xy


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## ro (19 Nov 2017)

xy mosian":3m4c84ru said:


> Cracking looking work, and a good pace too.
> I see you are using a combination square. If that includes the bit with two 45 degree arms, one each side of the blade, then the blade is square to the line across the points, if they are the same length, works well on curves well circles anyway. Now that set up might be too much for your present job, but should provide ideas for a smaller version.


Thanks 
Great idea about the combination square. By utter coincidence I have just ordered a new 6" combination square from Axminster which has that bit on, so I'll give it a go. I'ev also ordered a curved base spokeshave for the inside of the arms.

Right, to make the spindles I started with a lump of inch thick ash with fairly straight grain in places





Ripped into 22mm squares 12 1/2 inches long (plus a couple of longer ones in case I cock anything up)





I was going to shave them, but I had left the shaving horse outside in the rain and I didn't want to get a wet bum. So I decided to use the lathe instead 8) 
I turned them into rough cylinders about 21mm diameter. I really need to practice more on the lathe. The only tool I can use us the roughing gouge and I'm not too hot with that!





Marked up the tenons and extent of the hump in the middle





Turned the tenons to size, again with the gouge, using a 16mm spanner as a quick caliper. Then I put in a quick transition between the middle hump and the tenons.





A quick sand with 180 grit and I have 10 spindles!





3 quick holders for the arms made out of scraps. One slightly shorter than the other two to lower the back





I then tried the spindles in a variety of positions until I came up with an arrangement that i liked and held them in place with blu-tack.





I marked the rough position of the spindles and then used far too many sets of dividers to step out the actual positions, equally spaced.





All marked out, ready to be drilled





It's too cold to drill now, so that can wait for another time. Warning: the next instalment will include lasers.


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## Jacob (19 Nov 2017)

Just realised there is a "Woodworking in Estonia" in print - large excerpt here https://lostartpress.com/products/woodw ... in-estonia
I bought a PDF from a library which is a crude mimeograph with poor quality pictures but it does have 344 pages! I'll have to buy the new one now.

Re marking up - I'd be inclined to do the trad thing and draw up full size drawings on a board, then take off all marks direct from the drawing. Especially those seat outlines and arms details. Has it's limits of course but it's what I'd have a go at first. I suppose not possible in green woodworking if you are out there in the woods


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## El Barto (19 Nov 2017)

Love the 16mm spanner caliper cheat. And the blu tack!

Are you going to drill with a hand drill? Or a drill press? Looking great so far.


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## custard (20 Nov 2017)

ro":22wxiuct said:


> the remaining piece of sycamore



If you run out of Sycamore there's a fair few boards in the woodstore, you're just down the road from me so you're welcome to some. Great project by the way, excellent to see ingenuity and determination trumping tools and gadgets!


----------



## Sheffield Tony (23 Nov 2017)

ro":jow638dj said:


> Sheffield Tony":jow638dj said:
> 
> 
> > As an APTGW (Association of Pole Lathe Turners and Green Woodworkers) I get that esteemed publication "The Bodger's Gazette", which has a list of green woodworking courses, including chairmaking. So if anyone is desperate to get back to nature with a quieter and more gentle approach to woidworking, I could perhaps scan the relevant bits.
> ...



I haven't forgotten this, until I get around to scanning the paper list, there is an APTGW list of course tutors on-line here:

https://www.bodgers.org.uk/index.php/55-courses

Are you within striking distance of Weald and Downland Museum ? The bodgers will be gathering down there in May:

https://bodgersball2018.wordpress.com/


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## ro (23 Nov 2017)

Jacob":elkv7pzw said:


> Just realised there is a "Woodworking in Estonia" in print - large excerpt here https://lostartpress.com/products/woodw ... in-estonia
> I bought a PDF from a library which is a crude mimeograph with poor quality pictures but it does have 344 pages! I'll have to buy the new one now.
> 
> Re marking up - I'd be inclined to do the trad thing and draw up full size drawings on a board, then take off all marks direct from the drawing. Especially those seat outlines and arms details. Has it's limits of course but it's what I'd have a go at first. I suppose not possible in green woodworking if you are out there in the woods


Yup, that's the copy I have. The pictures are excellent quality!
And, yes you're right, it would be much simpler if I made a drawing, or even a template for this part. I'll try to do that next time...



Sheffield Tony":elkv7pzw said:


> Are you within striking distance of Weald and Downland Museum ? The bodgers will be gathering down there in May:


Awesome. I'll try to head down there for that.



custard":elkv7pzw said:


> If you run out of Sycamore there's a fair few boards in the woodstore, you're just down the road from me so you're welcome to some. Great project by the way, excellent to see ingenuity and determination trumping tools and gadgets!


Thanks for the offer, if I cock the arm up I'll take you up on that offer!
I think this post might contradict your statement about the lack of gadgets though...



El Barto":elkv7pzw said:


> Are you going to drill with a hand drill? Or a drill press? Looking great so far.


Read on...

I finally managed to grab an hour in the workshop to drill the spindle holes. The first thing was to make a new laser lever, as one of my existing ones was far too ghetto to post pictures of.

I started off with a laser line module (4 quid from ebay) and a battery holder. I then made up a 3/4 inch dowel and drilled a 12mm hole down the middle of it. I bored a 3/4 inch hole in a scrap of ash and made a tiny peg.





Put them together and I get a cheap, ghetto (but better than the last one) laser level





Before I removed the arm I had made some alignment marks on it and on the seat, and I now used a combination square to put it back in exactly the same position





I then clamped the lasers to the end of the arms and aligned them to the marks for the upper holes and lower holes and drilled the through the top of the arm.









The trick is to keep both laser lines parallel with each other down the length of the auger bit.





Once I'm through the arm, I can then put the auger point on the bottom mark and bore down an inch into the seat





All the holes drilled, as you can see I had to move the rear clamps to drill the middle holes





And obviously I couldn't resist a trial fit of the spindles 8)


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## MusicMan (23 Nov 2017)

Neat!


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## AndyT (24 Nov 2017)

Now that's clever! Precise but without the need to buy an expensive one-purpose tool. I had no idea you could get a laser module on its own for so little money.


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## DTR (24 Nov 2017)

A laser-guided hand brace?! That's amazing :lol:

Good work =D>


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## Racers (24 Nov 2017)

DTR":3e62ktvc said:


> A laser-guided hand brace?! That's amazing :lol:
> 
> Good work =D>




Not really...



DSCF0030 by Racers, on Flickr

:wink:


----------



## Woody2Shoes (24 Nov 2017)

Racers":i27hy0oo said:


> DTR":i27hy0oo said:
> 
> 
> > A laser-guided hand brace?! That's amazing :lol:
> ...



Haha - that arrangement looks like its intended to make the pointy end look smaller... ??


----------



## xy mosian (24 Nov 2017)

Lasers wow! Spanning a significant chunk of woodworking history in one project fantastic.
xy


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## Brian18741 (25 Nov 2017)

Lasers! 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk


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## MusicMan (25 Nov 2017)

Just waiting for Jacob's reaction ... !


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## Jacob (25 Nov 2017)

MusicMan":37akaezf said:


> Just waiting for Jacob's reaction ... !


Impressed. Amazingly cheap, so that's good!
In terms of this job though, shouldn't hand and eye skills be sufficient?
All tools are "gadgets" but some gadgets are less necessary than others and may even diminish craft skills; just think of the struggle that gadgetised sharpening has become!


----------



## ro (25 Nov 2017)

Jacob":36pbuas8 said:


> In terms of this job though, shouldn't hand and eye skills be sufficient


Well, yes, but apparently my hand skills aren't good enough. I did the first couple of chairs just sighting by eye. I actually find the laser method quicker to set up and more accurate (than my eyes anyway)

Also, lasers are cool :twisted:


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## Jacob (25 Nov 2017)

ro":gjs60q6o said:


> Jacob":gjs60q6o said:
> 
> 
> > In terms of this job though, shouldn't hand and eye skills be sufficient
> ...


Practice practice!


> I actually find the laser method quicker to set up and more accurate (than my eyes anyway)


I'm sure it is - but eyeballing does get better with practice


> Also, lasers are cool :twisted:


Yebbut not as cool as being able to do it just by squinting and rolling your eyeballs!


----------



## AndyT (25 Nov 2017)

While I agree with Jacob's view that the most useful thing for a woodworker is more practice, there's a problem for the hobby woodworker. How many wonky chairs can you fit in an ordinary house?
Often, we need to use clever tricks to avoid wasting effort and materials making substandard pieces, unlike the 19th century workers making thousands of items, day after day, whose first efforts would have been burnt, or corrected by a more experienced worker. I think two cheap lasers are a good trick.

The line between getting it right with a trick/beginner's aid is a variable one, set by our own circumstances and inclinations.


----------



## ro (25 Nov 2017)

AndyT":37njth75 said:


> While I agree with Jacob's view that the most useful thing for a woodworker is more practice, there's a problem for the hobby woodworker. How many wonky chairs can you fit in an ordinary house?
> Often, we need to use clever tricks to avoid wasting effort and materials making substandard pieces, unlike the 19th century workers making thousands of items, day after day, whose first efforts would have been burnt, or corrected by a more experienced worker. I think two cheap lasers are a good trick.
> 
> The line between getting it right with a trick/beginner's aid is a variable one, set by our own circumstances and inclinations.



Absolutely! And each time I use the lasers I'm practicing sighting too. One day I may be able to stop using them.

Next time I want to do this with a steam bent arm which will be much thinner and less able to hide mistakes, so I will use the lasers for that. But it would be nice, one day to be able to do this by eye.


----------



## custard (25 Nov 2017)

I too salute the ingenuity that went into the laser device, it's clever, cheap and effective. 

=D> 

The only comment I'd make is that it implies a very high level of drilling accuracy is necessary for windsor chairs, but in my experience (and I've made scores of them) that's just not the case. 

If the spindles are sized properly they have enough flex to accommodate even quite large departures from true, consequently aiming by eye is fully up to the task almost from the first attempt. Maybe it's the familiar story that woodworking newbies often beef up the scantlings to the point where that flex disappears? Or maybe it's the other familiar story, that newbies often don't put the time in at the timber selection stage. But if you select really straight grained stuff for spindles you can shave them down to wand like proportions, they'll be plenty strong enough for the job and they'll bend enough so that a degree or two out is neither here nor there, in fact that small deviation is a large part of what separates the hand crafted chair from the machine made windsors that Ercol churn out by the thousand.


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## ro (25 Nov 2017)

custard":2jau1fyb said:


> But if you select really straight grained stuff for spindles you can shave them down to wand like proportions, they'll be plenty strong enough for the job and they'll bend enough so that a degree or two out is neither here nor there, in fact that small deviation is a large part of what separates the hand crafted chair from the machine made windsors that Ercol churn out by the thousand.


Oh, cool. The first ones I did by eye required some bending (and subsequent tw*tting with a lump hummer to seat them) of the spindles, which I took to be a bad thing!
When you say "wand like proportions", what kind of diameter are you talking about? 5/8 straight through? Or even less?


----------



## custard (25 Nov 2017)

ro":4zg5xrvm said:


> what kind of diameter are you talking about? 5/8 straight through? Or even less?



Way less. 

You might have a thicker section below the arm that could be 5/8", but by the time the spindle passes through the arm bow and the crest bow it's down to 3/8". If you want to turn them it's bloody difficult to control the whipping, I'm a rubbish turner so I generally shaved the spindles. I'd sometimes use cleft stock as well, which might introduce a shallow kink or wave into the spindle but as well as adding buckets of charm makes it phenomenally strong and resilient, use something springy like Ash or Yew and it'll bend an awfully long way before it breaks.


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## El Barto (25 Nov 2017)

Ro, on the Windsor week I just did we were shown how to sight the drill holes by eye. The method shown is ridiculously simple but also very effective! I was shocked at how simple it was. I was amazed that I nailed what I thought was going to be very difficult in about five minutes. It's outlined in James Murcell's book I think, OR I could come and show you, don't think you're too far from me.


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## ro (28 Nov 2017)

custard":2wpi91bm said:


> ro":2wpi91bm said:
> 
> 
> > what kind of diameter are you talking about? 5/8 straight through? Or even less?
> ...



OK, so I don't have a crest box above the arm on this design, do you think I could go down to 1/2 inch spindles on this if I ensured that the grain was straight (or rived it from green stock)?

Thank you very much for all the advice, it's very much appreciated  



El Barto":2wpi91bm said:


> Ro, on the Windsor week I just did we were shown how to sight the drill holes by eye. The method shown is ridiculously simple but also very effective! I was shocked at how simple it was. I was amazed that I nailed what I thought was going to be very difficult in about five minutes. It's outlined in James Murcell's book I think, OR I could come and show you, don't think you're too far from me.



Wow, that's a very generous offer! Thank you! I'd love to take you up on that when I make the next chair. By the way, how did you get on with the travishers on the course?


----------



## ro (2 Dec 2017)

Work has managed to keep me out of the workshop all week, but I managed to grab a bit of time this afternoon to move the chair on a bit.

Hopefully this update is less controversial than the last one. There are no lasers or power tools involved at all :lol: 

I refined the inside of the arms with a spokeshave and scraper. Pegs and a wedge were perfect to hold the arm vertical on the low bench, with the cork block stopping it rocking.






Rounded over the top of the arms with spokeshaves. I could have used the pegs and wedge again for this, but I wanted to see what the Veritas Wonder Pup was like for this kind of operation.




It turns out to be amazing (as it is at every other job). Low profile and grips like anything.

Holding the arms to round over the other edges was a bit more taxing. In the end I held it to the bench with the holdfast and put a saw bench under the arm.





With the arms shaped, I cut kerfs in the top of the spindles to take the wedges later and set them into the arm.





I painted the mortices and the tops of the spindles with glue, aligned the kerfs in the spindles to they were perpendicular to the grain in the arm and knocked the spindles home with a lump hammer.





Then, using the arm holders as gauges I knocked the arm down to the right height from the seat.





By now, the glue was starting to go off so I rushed through wedging the spindles with oak wedges (quickly split and pared out with a chisel) and didn't take any photos.





All that's left is to level the spindles to the arm, cut the legs to the right length and oil it up. But that will have to wait for a week as I'm off on holiday tomorrow morning!


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## El Barto (2 Dec 2017)

Looking really nice. It's come together quickly now!


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## ro (11 Dec 2017)

Right, almost finished 

I put a piece of MDF on the bench and a saw bench to give me a flat surface and used little wedges to level the chair





I adjusted the wedges until the front corners were of an equal height (21.5") and the middle of the back was about an inch lower than the front





I wanted the front to be 20" high so I cut down a piece of scrap so that a pencil was held 1.5" high and made the most ghetto marking gauge ever :lol:





Tracing round the legs with the gauge





I have always struggled to hold the legs to trim the ends, but where the low bench is so narrow I could just use the holdfast to hold each pair of legs in turn and cut them off.





Next, trimming the tops of the spindles and wedges.
I don't have a flush cut saw and I'm scared of cutting into the arms, so I cut a hole in a piece of thin card and pop it over the spindle top





Then I can just lay the saw flat on the card and cut away





A couple of swipes with the block plane levels them off





Now it's going to sit inside for a day and warm up before I give it a final sand and put the finish on it 8)


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## El Barto (11 Dec 2017)

BEAUTIFUL! Neat trick with the card to avoid cutting in to the arm. 

How are you going to finish it?


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## ro (11 Dec 2017)

El Barto":32ry1liw said:


> BEAUTIFUL! Neat trick with the card to avoid cutting in to the arm.
> 
> How are you going to finish it?



Thank you. I was planning on a couple of coats of Danish Oil to bring out the colour of the wood followed by a beeswax and oil mixture.
I've been trying out various oils mixed with beeswax as finishes, next up is either olive oil or hemp oil. I've not decided which one to try...


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## Sheffield Tony (11 Dec 2017)

They say olive oil can go rancid. I'm not sure it is all that bad, but it might be a bit of a risk to try it first on a chair with quite a lot of work in it. 

A very enjoyable thread BTW, both for the chair itself and how you got there !


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## DTR (12 Dec 2017)

Looks amazing! =D>


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## ro (13 Dec 2017)

It's finally done!!!!

Following Tony's advice on olive oil going rancid, I chose to try out a hemp oil and beeswax finish on the chair.
I started with a lump of beeswax, some hemp oil and an old jam jar





Chopped up the beeswax and added it to the jar with 3 times the weight of hemp oil then set the jar in some simmering water for 1/4 of an hour





When all the wax has melted it looks like honey and when it cools it looks like rancid honey!





And when rubbed into the chair it gives everything a worrying green tint!





However, when I buffed off the wax it was left with a lovely soft sheen and no green-ness 8) 
I ended up giving the spindles, legs and seat a coat of danish oil to bring out the colours and left the arms with just wax to keep them nice and light.

3 coats of wax later:

















It's not perfect, but it's definitely good enough to sit on!

All in all, it's been a fun build. Restricting myself to using the low bench rather than a normal bench with a vice added some challenges, but I have learned to love it for some operations:
1) Rough crosscutting operations are so easy on this bench
2) face planing boards and planing the legs to shape seem easier when sitting down
3) Boring holes at this height meant I could get my body over the brace
4) HOLLOWING THE SEAT!!!! 
5) Marking out

One thing I really noticed is just how stable this light little bench is for planing. With my considerable mass sitting on it there is no rack or movement like I get in my normal bench. Time to build a new normal hight bench methinks :wink: 

However, I'm looking forward to using a vice again, especially for planing the edges of boards and rounding the back of the seat!

Thanks for watching (and all the great advice!)


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## AndyT (13 Dec 2017)

Thanks for sharing the build with us.
That looks like a family heirloom chair you've made there. Really smart. Well done!

=D> =D>


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## El Barto (13 Dec 2017)

Man, that is brilliant. The wax concoction turned out great. Did you test it on any offcuts before you applied it or did you just go for it? Pre-application it looks like mushy peas!

Another question: how was it turning the spindles on the lathe? Did you get much vibration or was it ok? You may have mentioned that already when you posted that section...

What an enjoyable build, thanks for sharing.


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## ro (13 Dec 2017)

Thanks both! I'm really pleased with how it turned out.


El Barto":2tl15ufh said:


> The wax concoction turned out great. Did you test it on any offcuts before you applied it or did you just go for it? Pre-application it looks like mushy peas!


Yeah, I tried it out on an offcut of sycamore before I slathered it over the chair as I was slightly worried I'd turn the chair green :mrgreen: 



El Barto":2tl15ufh said:


> Another question: how was it turning the spindles on the lathe? Did you get much vibration or was it ok? You may have mentioned that already when you posted that section...


The spindles turned really between centers on the lathe, no vibration or chatter at all.
However, they are only about 13 inches long. When I've done longer spindles I have had terrible chatter. On longer spindles I normally rough the whole thing to a cylinder and turn about 8 inches of each end and then finish the rest off on the shaving horse.


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## El Barto (13 Dec 2017)

ro":1ny3bw88 said:


> Thanks both! I'm really pleased with how it turned out.
> 
> 
> El Barto":1ny3bw88 said:
> ...



Thanks for the notes. I'd be interested to compare turning with and without Peter Galbert's "Steady Rest".


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## MattRoberts (13 Dec 2017)

I've been watching this with interest. The end result looks brilliant, and even more so given the techniques you've been using. Hope you're really proud - you should be!

Thanks for giving such a detailed run through - I look forward to your next project!

Cheers


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