# should i just bite the bullet and get a sorby pro edge?



## gavinr (3 Jun 2015)

i've been looking at options for sharpening my chisels, basically starting from scratch with the necessary equipment, and i keep being referred to, and reading on the www, that the sorby pro edge is the way to go. 

assuming that the plus is worth the extra spend over the standard model, i'm reckon one will cost me £150 more than a basic 6" bench grinder and jigs. for a novice is this money well spent?

also if i look for a used one are there any pitfalls to look out for?


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## Jacob (3 Jun 2015)

Pro-edge is good. An ordinary belt sander will do almost as well and you can also use it as a sander.
You don't need jigs anyway.
I'd avoid 6" bench grinder it's the worst option - they are for metal work only (re shaping tools etc) but are too fierce and small diameter for routine sharpening.


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## gregmcateer (3 Jun 2015)

I don't know the pro edge to use, but I've got an 8" grinder with a tilting table - A lesson with the good Mr Findley and I am (just about) able to produce repeatable angles.

If I had the money I probably would've gone ProEdge or Tormek, but I'm kinda glad I didn't as I've learned a lot by being a 'free-rider' and as only hobby, don't need v speedy sharpening to meet targets.


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## marcros (3 Jun 2015)

if you have the money for the proedge, I would say go for it. The jigs are not essential, but for a beginner I would say go for the duluxe model that includes them. For a more experienced sharpener, then the choice is yours with jigs- many people still use them. To give you some idea, I went from novice sharpening to getting a perfectly sharp set of turning tools instantly- no learning curve at all.

The belts are cheaper by not going to Sorby- if you put up a post there will likely be a couple of people wanting some and it pays to go to somebody like BnD abrasives as a small group buy. If you do so, I would be willing to order a few with you which will help on the quantity.

I personally wouldnt go for a 6" grinder, although there are plenty of people on here who do use one and get good results. With the proedge you can quickly change belts and have a cheap and wide range of grits to hand, with a changeover of a minute at most. With a grinder you are limited to 2 fixed wheels. That may do you, but I prefer to be able to use a 60 and 120 for shaping, and have the option of going through the grits to honing grits (for bench chisels at least). There is no mess and there is no need to dress the wheel.

If you dont have the money, and the proedge is not cheap, then there are alternative ways to sharpen tools.


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## dp341 (3 Jun 2015)

I really like my proedge. Practically no learning curve. The adjustable platform is what sets it apart from a belt sander. Very solid and easily repeatable angles.

The standard gouge jig and skew jig work with it but are not really necessary. I do use the long grind fingernail jig, again, very repeatable angles, saves me doing any drastic sharpening. I can always just freshen up the previous edge.


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## marcros (3 Jun 2015)

however the side of the gouge jig works as a 90 degree jig, so it is useful for bench tools. I like the gouge jig, but havent tried without it yet. must do so...


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## Dalboy (3 Jun 2015)

Jacob":2fg8nr7s said:


> Pro-edge is good. An ordinary belt sander will do almost as well and you can also use it as a sander.
> You don't need jigs anyway.
> I'd avoid 6" bench grinder it's the worst option - they are for metal work only (re shaping tools etc) but are too fierce and small diameter for routine sharpening.



I,m sorry but disagree with you comment about the 6" grinder I use one with no trouble at all I get good edges on the tools which I have used on some fine as in delicate turnings also get a good finish straight off the tool, A lot of the trouble is the user in many cases being heavy handed. and also having the wrong wheel on it.


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## Jacob (3 Jun 2015)

Yes they can be used but I think they are problematic esp. for beginners. You can end up with tools horribly hollow-ground looking and looking like nibbled by rats, and blued with over heating. They tend to waste a lot of metal.
Bin there dunnit!


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jun 2015)

Depends whether you're talking of turning tools or hand tools. A hollow grind can be desirable in turning tools - one extremely good turner I know won't use a Pro Edge because of its not leaving one : having said that there are a couple more who use one virtually exclusively. 6"/8" grinders do tend to burn if you're not careful - I've a 6" Creusen with a fine white wheel which will burn in a few seconds (it was 2nd hand and came with it) but is brilliant and very economic on the steel for touching up. Interestingly at our club (where there are many brilliant turners and which is relatively well off) there is no Pro Edge or 8" grinder, just four 6" ones. I fancy a Pro Edge for bench tools, but I can no way justify it - ultimately it doesn't do anything I can't do another way.


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## Dalboy (3 Jun 2015)

Jacob":e0oeyuzy said:


> Yes they can be used but I think they are problematic esp. for beginners. You can end up with tools horribly hollow-ground looking and looking like nibbled by rats, and blued with over heating. They tend to waste a lot of metal.
> Bin there dunnit!



We where all beginners to start with and yes I have turned a tool blue on the occasions I am still using the same tools I started with. Like most things practice is the key. None of us started out being able to turn the perfect bowl and like many I am still trying :roll: .


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jun 2015)

Don't forget also that modern turner's tools are HHS, so the bluing doesn't matter anyway.


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## bobh7 (3 Jun 2015)

I struggled with a bench grinder for 2 years and then bit the bullet and bought a pro edge and was getting a perfect grind within 5 minutes. Excellent bit of kit, highly recommended.


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## blackrodd (3 Jun 2015)

This is starting to sound just like a sharpening thread! Rodders :shock: :shock:


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## Grahamshed (4 Jun 2015)

I love my pro edge and would not even consider replacing it with anything else, so easy to use. However...... It has to be said that when sharpening a curve ( say a dome ended scraper or a Lancer shape skew ) the motor gets in the way of the tool handle a bit.


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## Dave Brookes (4 Jun 2015)

Gavin,
Have you looked at the Wolverine system from OneWay?
It's a lot cheaper than the Pro-edge; give Peter a call at The Toolpost and he will no doubt advise as to the pros and cons of the different systems.

Dave


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## woodpig (4 Jun 2015)

Get the Pro edge, I've not heard of anyone that regretted buying one.


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## Random Orbital Bob (4 Jun 2015)

The pro-edge certainly does what it says on the tin. What I particularly like about it is the flexibility of fast removal of high speed steel with it's low grit belts. For some reason it doesn't heat the steel up anything like as much as dry grinders do and just forget the Tormek if you want fast steel removal...its rubbish. So you get shaping AND sharpening with the same efficacy all in the one tool.

So pro's for the Sorby is flexibility and speed of setup time which due to the baked in positions of the platform and the very simple jigs, works very well indeed...exceptional in fact. Cons...that motor housing design is a bit of a pig every now and then. For example, you cant get a 30 degree bevel on a detail gouge due to fouling on the motor housing....35 yes but not as acute as 30 and that's a limitation to some folks in my turning club (master turners too not just some noob who knows squat)


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## woodpig (4 Jun 2015)

Could you not remove the handle to alleviate the problem Bob? I've not tried it but I expect this is not a problem for me as I use a belt sander in lieu of the Edge Pro. :wink: :lol:


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## Random Orbital Bob (4 Jun 2015)

Handle Woody? Do you mean the tool handle?? There is no handle on the PE??


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## Rhossydd (4 Jun 2015)

I think he means the tool handle if it's fouling the PE.
Not a sensible proposition though, having to refit a tool handle after every sharpening would soon get tedious with normal woodturning tools.


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## Random Orbital Bob (4 Jun 2015)

I thought he meant that too....then I thought what you did


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## woodpig (4 Jun 2015)

Yes tool handle. :| In fact can't you buy some fancy turning tools with removable handles? I think those strange blokes "over the pond" use them a fair bit?


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## Westfield (5 Jun 2015)

I bought one after looking at the other options, it does make sharpening woodturning chisels easy and I have not had any problems with handles etc.
You have to be careful when using the long grind jig as it can rub on the belt if not positioned correctly.
I know cheaper belts are available but other users told me the belts last for months anyway so not sure it's worth the effort to buy the non Sorby options.

No regrets with this purchase so far.

Hugh


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## Graham Orm (5 Jun 2015)

*NO NO NO NO NO! *
Have I made myself clear? I've been through lots of options with sharpenning, I am now using an Eclipse jig on a diamond stone 1000/400, then on a strop with alluminium oxide paste on it still with the jig on (pulling backwards only) This gets a superb even edge, a mirror finish and a razor sharp blade.
Save your money!!!


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## Rhossydd (5 Jun 2015)

Graham Orm":lttl3yxj said:


> I am now using an Eclipse jig on a diamond stone


Did you notice which section of the forum this was posted in ? I can't believe you're seriously suggesting using an Eclipse jig on a bowl gouge.

It looks like the SPE is a seriously good bit of kit by the entire lack of negative comments here. The only downside is the initial cost, but they are really solidly built. The rarity and high prices they go for on eBay usually tells you that purchasers are pretty satisfied with them. I've just about given up waiting for one to sell for a significant discount off new, so will be buying mine new later this month.
But you can easily get away with a 6" grinder with a decent wheel if you're unsure about the investment or simply can't afford it.


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## Lons (5 Jun 2015)

Hi Gavin

If you can justify the cost my advice would be get it.

I've tried everything over the years and can sharpen reasonably well by hand but I don't enjoy the process. I've got a Tormek T7 which is superb but slow and like others I searched for a long time for a s/h pro edge. Finally got one recently and so far find it very quick, very accurate and doesn't overheat the tool unless careless. Perfect for turning tools especially though my carving chisels with still be a hand process.

I only got 120g belts with it and about to order some other grits to try. 

cheers
Bob


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## Graham Orm (5 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":1t457hsn said:


> Graham Orm":1t457hsn said:
> 
> 
> > I am now using an Eclipse jig on a diamond stone
> ...



OOPSY!


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## Doofusme (8 Jun 2015)

You should buy my grinder outfit on ebay....


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## Bigbud78 (8 Jun 2015)

Doofusme":2g6xcqkz said:


> You should buy my grinder outfit on ebay....


Send me a link


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## Silverbirch (9 Jun 2015)

Another vote for the Pro Edge. I used a 6" grinder for long enough, but I always had problems with vibration, which new wheels and attempts at balancing them never fully resolved to my satisfaction. Once I got the Pro Edge, these and various other niggles disappeared. It`s much better built than the average cheap bench grinder, but of course, quite a bit more expensive. Design wise, it`s not perfect, but at least it is designed in part with turning tools in mind. An earlier post mentioned the Wolverine system, but,factor in a half decent grinder, perhaps with replacement cooler running wheels, and the price differential is not that great.


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## Rhossydd (10 Jun 2015)

Any owners care to share how often they have to replace the belts ?


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## marcros (10 Jun 2015)

i can only comment that the ones that i have- ceramic in 60 and 120, and zirconium in 240 last a good while. I have had my machine a few months and used it regularly. yet to replace a belt. The aluminium oxide are said not to last as long.


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Jun 2015)

Depends entirely on use, frequency obviously being one consideration but by far the biggest is shaping versus sharpening. I've tended to become "the bloke with the PE" at my turning club open meets so get landed with "fixing" all manner of severely out of true gouges, skews and scrapers. All HSS, all unrecognisable in the single facet bevel department! After one particularly gruelling 11/4" skew that was almost ground flat and square and therefore took a huge amount of effort with the 60grit ceramic, it was getting a little tired. That was after 2 hours of all manner of other major shaping operations though. I threw that one away because as the abrasive wears down, so the cutting slows, the friction builds and over heating can be more of a challenge.

But for my use in the workshop, and when not dealing with major family health crises I tend to turn all day, it's an absolute soldier. Once you're sharpening and not shaping you can easily get 6 months out of a regularly used belt. (Ceramic). Marcros, Paulm and I shop for them at a place called B&D Abrasives in Andover mail order. They're the least expensive we've found but require a minimum order hence the sharing between us and I think they work out at around £2.70 per belt from memory.

Personally, I've used oil stones for many years, then a dry grinder, then a Tormek and I still use all for different jobs but for turning, by far and away the most used method is the PE. Put it this way, the cost of belts as a consumable in a domestic setting is negligible and would be unlikely to exceed £20/year.


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## Jacob (10 Jun 2015)

It's when you have a lot of metal to remove that the bench grinder comes into it's own. Or an angle grinder. As long as you don't overheat and stop well short, then tidying up and finishing off on a belt sander.


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Jun 2015)

I agree removing lots of metal is a bit of a pain. It's particularly gruelling on a Tormek, especially wide surface area tools like skews. I was pleasantly surprised with the PE for avoiding overheating while still removing hard steel. I wasn't used to linisher style tools apart from bodging on a regular belt sander before the PE but thought it stood up particularly well when compared to my bench grinder. In fairness though, I'm only using a white wheel on my dry grinder, I've never got particularly sophisticated with it. But the PE seemed to avoid heating up the HSS better than the grinder, quite a bit of difference in fact and I've posted to that effect many times. I do still keep a dunking pot of water next to it and again, wide surface area tools like big skews do require it if you try to hurry them by too much physical pressure. But, though clearly not objective, I would swear the linisher style seems to cut cooler than the white wheel with the low grit belts.

I must say I've never tried using the angle grinder on a "fine edged" tool like a turning chisel but I guess to just remove the bulk at the start and then finesse it after sounds like a good idea. Very abrasive wheels, cooler grind. Do you use an angle grinder as the first step a lot then Jacob? Rather like the idea of fast, cool and crude to get the back broken.


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## woodpig (10 Jun 2015)

60 grit on my belt sander takes metal off pretty fast but the real beauty is that I can change to 240 grit to get a polished edge. The only let down with the Pro edge is the time it takes to change belts. I don't know how long it takes you Pro edge owners but it only takes a few seconds on my belt sander. In fairness it used to take several minutes at least on my RP BDS250 until I modified it for tool sharpening.


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## paulm (10 Jun 2015)

woodpig":3mf6umq5 said:


> 60 grit on my belt sander takes metal off pretty fast but the real beauty is that I can change to 240 grit to get a polished edge. The only let down with the Pro edge is the time it takes to change belts. I don't know how long it takes you Pro edge owners but it only takes a few seconds on my belt sander. In fairness it used to take several minutes at least on my RP BDS250 until I modified it for tool sharpening.



Only takes about five seconds on the pro-edge, tracking always remains spot on for me too, haven't had to adjust it since initial set up a few years back.

Cheers, Paul


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## woodpig (10 Jun 2015)

paulm":2msxb27f said:


> Only takes about five seconds on the pro-edge, tracking always remains spot on for me too, haven't had to adjust it since initial set up a few years back.
> 
> Cheers, Paul



I think they must have changed the design then Paul because it used to take a few minutes to remove and replace the covers on the ones they had at work.


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## paulm (10 Jun 2015)

woodpig":32n8zr6q said:


> paulm":32n8zr6q said:
> 
> 
> > Only takes about five seconds on the pro-edge, tracking always remains spot on for me too, haven't had to adjust it since initial set up a few years back.
> ...



I leave the covers off mine, don't recommend it to anyone else but I'm perfectly happy to do so.

I guess your belt sander must be without covers too if it's similarly quick to change ?

If the covers were left on I guess it must take about 30 seconds or so rather than five, so no biggie either way 

Cheers, Paul


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## Lons (10 Jun 2015)

I put the covers on and takes about 30 to 40 seconds to change, just tried it!

I didn't want to buy large numbers of belts from B&D so searched around and the best prices I could find were from Poolewood. E.G alu oxide at £1.95 each, trizact @ £8.20 but not this is plus VAT and a del. charge. Mine should be here tomorrow

cheers
Bob


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Jun 2015)

I also leave the covers off mine...far quicker.


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## woodpig (10 Jun 2015)

My B&D sander doesn't have guards on the sides, what took the time was removing the work platform and associated bits. It was a real PITA till I made a new adjustable table. The lever is a bit worn on mine - needs replacing at some point, but I could change the belt without actually stopping the machine!

This is it with the belt off.







As shown I use 2" belts for tool sharpening but I can quickly remove the auxiliary platen and fit 6" belts for other work. It does need to be carefully cleaned after sanding wood though as any dust can start to smoulder once you go back to cutting steel!


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## paulm (10 Jun 2015)

Looks a good bit of kit 

Cheers, Paul


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Jun 2015)

+1....nice mods there Woody


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## dp341 (11 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":22xiuw7k said:


> I also leave the covers off mine...far quicker.


Oh, is that bit a cover? I thought it was packaging :lol:

Took mine off to fit the belt, first time I used it and it's not been back on since. It just clutters the place up while I keep it, just in case I ever decide to sell the pro edge.


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## Rhossydd (21 Jun 2015)

I thought I might answer some of your questions from practical experience having just bought a SPE


gavinr":228fqjmo said:


> i've been looking at options for sharpening my chisels, basically starting from scratch with the necessary equipment, and i keep being referred to, and reading on the www, that the sorby pro edge is the way to go.


It certainly is a brilliant solution for sharpening turning tools (and other edge tools too). Within ten minutes of getting it out of the box I was getting fantastic results and have spent the afternoon re-shaping/sharpening and refining all my turning tools.
I think that most beginners would also find it easy to use too. Yes you still need use some care in use, but if someone finds that the SPE is difficult to use woodturning is probably not for them.


> assuming that the plus is worth the extra spend over the standard model, i'm reckon one will cost me £150 more than a basic 6" bench grinder and jigs.


Yes, you'll need the full version. Despite what our resident nay sayer might say, the jigs are excellent and make getting good results simple and repeatable. It would be pretty pointless to buy an SPE and then not use the jigs, it's the product's major advantage. Yandles are offering a good 'special edition' package at the moment that has all the important bits at a good price.


> also if i look for a used one are there any pitfalls to look out for?


They're as rare as hen's teeth SH. One's I've seen have either been a bit rough and rusty, or lacking so many of the essential extras that there's too little saving compared to buying new.


> for a novice is this money well spent?


Now this is the most difficult thing to answer. Primarily it depends on your budgetary limitations and what you already own.
A bench grinder set up with some home made jigs will be a third of the price and deliver good results without a huge amount of practice.
Before investing in the SPE, I'd say you ought to have at least a decent chuck and bandsaw. (assuming lathe and a decent selection of basic tools)


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## Jacob (21 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":3t15owq0 said:


> ...Yes, you'll need the full version. Despite what our resident nay sayer might say, the jigs are excellent and make getting good results simple and repeatable. It would be pretty pointless to buy an SPE and then not use the jigs, it's the product's major advantage.....


Don't waste your money on the jigs. 
Freehand is a bit chancy at first but you soon get the hang of it - quicker, cheaper and very easy. 
To make it "repeatable" you just do it "the same way" every time (once you have cracked it). 
Don't let them "de-skill" you!


> for a novice is this money well spent?


Any ordinary belt sander is just about as good AND also does sanding! 2 for the price of one. So the Sorby is a bit of a luxury. Having said that I won't be parting with mine.


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## Rhossydd (21 Jun 2015)

Jacob":2pav8btg said:


> Don't let them "de-skill" you!


As ever you're missing the point and suggesting people need to always take the hardest method of work.
When you begin woodwork you can't 'de-skill' someone because they don't have the skills to loose.
A jig just makes life easier and more productive, it allows people to learn woodworking instead of tool sharpening.
Do timber merchants 'de-skill' woodworkers by providing ready cut timber instead of making people go out and fell trees themselves ?
Do tool manufacturers 'de-skill' woodworkers by providing ready made tools instead of making people go out make them themselves ?


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## CHJ (21 Jun 2015)

Jacob":22j8gfhh said:


> Rhossydd":22j8gfhh said:
> 
> 
> > ...Yes, you'll need the full version. Despite what our resident nay sayer might say, the jigs are excellent and make getting good results simple and repeatable. It would be pretty pointless to buy an SPE and then not use the jigs, it's the product's major advantage.....
> ...



Spoken like a man who produces a dozen turned items a day on a lathe and sharpens HSS bowl gouges every 4-5 minutes, NOT.

If you have the spare cash to invest in the pro-edge (we all like a bit of luxury, just depends on which one's you priority) and want to concentrate on turning output rather than wasting steel learning an unnecessary skill then go for the jigs, twelve months down the line with a few hundred items under your belt and an appreciation of what tool configuration suits your turning methods best, then there will be those you can dress without a jig but I'll guarantee that there will still be some you get more rapid and constant results by spending the few seconds locating in a pre-set jig.


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## Jacob (21 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":2zrrukis said:


> ...
> A jig just makes life easier and more productive, it allows people to learn woodworking instead of tool sharpening.....


Jigs add complexity and slow things down. They create dependency like crutches (are supposed to). It's a very recent sharpening fashion. 
It always seems a bit sad to me that people are encouraged to buy daft gadgets and not learn how to do some very simple things properly.
It's your choice - if you don't have them you won't miss them.


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## Jacob (21 Jun 2015)

CHJ":2doxd27k said:


> ...
> Spoken like a man who produces a dozen turned items a day on a lathe and sharpens HSS bowl gouges every 4-5 minutes, NOT....


I have done long runs of hundreds of items in the past (knobs, shaker pegs and a few other things). Not into bowls, urns etc but I have done a few of these.
Being able to touch up an edge in seconds is very handy - turning and other tools too. All that faffing about is unnecessary. The Sorby has an adjustable tool rest anyway, with a scale for angles. Why would anyone want more than that?
At least have a go before you are persuaded to give up - it's really easy and it doesn't matter if you don't get it right first time.


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## Rhossydd (21 Jun 2015)

Jacob":2ajv9nga said:


> Jigs add complexity and slow things down.


Absolute rubbish.


> It's a very recent sharpening fashion.


As are electric motors, but most turners seem to have adopted that convenience.


> if you don't have them you won't miss them.


Just like electric light really.


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## Lons (21 Jun 2015)

Jacob":xhu7c2ay said:


> Rhossydd":xhu7c2ay said:
> 
> 
> > ...Jigs add complexity and slow things down. They create dependency like crutches (are supposed to). It's a very recent sharpening fashion.



I seriously doubt there are many who use the jigs for the SPE who would think they are complex or slow. (Except you Jacob :wink: )
Personally I find them incredibly quick and simple in use. Instant repeatable angles, what on earth is wrong with that, especially for a beginner if they can afford the cost ?
Best time saver I ever invested in!

So... if you don't need it Jacob, why not sell yours to the OP and do him a favour?

cheers
Bob


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## Rhossydd (21 Jun 2015)

Jacob":5npjyccc said:


> The Sorby has an adjustable tool rest anyway, with a scale for angles. Why would anyone want more than that?


Er, that's a jig. The bowl gouge part that fits in the rest just makes life easier, faster and more reliable. It also makes grinding square and true dead simple too.
The fingernail jig is also fast and easy to use. Trying to make good fingernail grinds without a jig takes a LOT of skill and practice, there's simply no need to waste expensive tool steel and, most importantly, valuable time learning that skill when a simple jig makes it so simple.


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## CHJ (21 Jun 2015)

I was taught how to sharpen twist drills to near enough 118deg. angle and reasonable rake clearance free hand within a couple of hours when I was 15 yrs. old and for general drilling use still do it the same to this day quite effectively some 60 yrs. later, but if I want a special to drill as near as possible to it's designed diameter without having to drill test holes I use a jig to ensure the lip lengths are as true as possible.

Likewise after 10 years sharpening my turning tools I can grind them all free hand if necessary but in order to be able to take some of them off the rack and use them without a risk of a catch or forgotten quirk from the last sharpening deviation I go for the jigs which are pre-set and need no adjustments of angles etc. 
Like driving an automatic car, something I've done for years, it reduces the chance of me making an error and gives me more time to concentrate on the essentials of getting from A to B without making a pigs ear of it.


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## Random Orbital Bob (21 Jun 2015)

I suspect you're out-gunned this time Jacob......probably better to pop the hot water bottle in and have an early night eh


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## Jacob (22 Jun 2015)

There is an army of folk who are into jigs for sharpening processes. Particularly makes sense if you are a tool maker - they (should) produce perfect repeatable results.
But there is, and always has been, an army of folk who do it nearly all freehand. The results are usually not so perfect to look at but may well be just as functional in use.
That's all there is to it. It'll stay that way too.


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## Lons (22 Jun 2015)

Jacob":fma9e7t9 said:


> There is an army of folk who are into jigs for sharpening processes. Particularly makes sense if you are a tool maker - they (should) produce perfect repeatable results.
> But there is, and always has been, an army of folk who do it nearly all freehand. The results are usually not so perfect to look at but may well be just as functional in use.
> That's all there is to it. It'll stay that way too.



Agreed but those of us who decide to use a jig don't belittle or ridicule those who don't. Neither do we come out in print to newbies and state there is only one way that should be considered. Your "crutch" comment was typical opinionated claptrap.
Room for all methods Jacob, not just the one you happen to prefer and those of us who responded to the OP original question gave an honest opinion without derogatory comments on any other system.

cheers
Bob


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

In point of fact on this occasion I do have some sympathy for your viewpoint. I have a Proedge as you may recall but there are many times when I'm right in the middle of a piece of turning and all I want is a quick tickle to bring back the edge....going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from the crucial "muscle memory" zone I'm in with that particular piece and I don't want to be disturbed for fear of being thrown off.

On those occasions which 9 times out of 10 are a detail gouge, skew or bowl gouge I want the fastest route to a new edge and I'll just roll it freehand or even use the card file in my pocket.

So for newbies I can see both sides. There is so much for them to learn that adding the complication of freehand sharpening must be like climbing a mountain. On the other hand, the confidence it gives you is worth the struggle. It's difficult to give a right and wrong answer to this. it's more a question of priority.


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

Bob does have a point too Jacob....if you tried a slightly less "dogmatic" approach it might save a lot of grief.


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## Rhossydd (22 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":3samu7xb said:


> going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from.......//.....
> On those occasions which 9 times out of 10 are a detail gouge, skew or bowl gouge I want the fastest route to a new edge and I'll just roll it freehand or even use the card file in my pocket.


From my experience so far, I'm only seeing the fingernail gouge as being even slightly time consuming to set up, maybe 90s ?
I'm expecting to have the SPE set up at the correct angle for the tool I'm mainly using so it's just a case of switching it on.
When wanting to work quickly like this the SPE has another small advantage in that it gets to working speed almost instantly, whereas most grinders take a few moments to speed up.


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## woodpig (22 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":3v7r21yr said:


> Jacob":3v7r21yr said:
> 
> 
> > The Sorby has an adjustable tool rest anyway, with a scale for angles. Why would anyone want more than that?
> ...



Spot on. Spending hours learning to sharpen free hand on a double ended grinder is a waste of time and tool steel. If that's all you've got go for it but in terms of time spent and tool steel saved the PE will soon pay for itself.


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## CHJ (22 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":k92djo6e said:


> ........going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from the crucial "muscle memory" zone I'm in with that particular piece and I don't want to be disturbed for fear of being thrown off.
> .....



And there is the crucial point about jigs and specifically those for winged gouges, to gain maximum benefit of speed and consistent profile of the jig you need a jig set and fixed for each tool.

This came to light for me when I did a review of the Tormek System for a magazine some years ago in respect of turning gouges. 
Tormek make no secret about the need to clearly mark the jigs for repeat and accurate settings, something that is totally impractical if you have several differing profile gouges, but the excellent DVD by Jeff Farris that comes with the system confirms this to the point that he has a jig set for each tool, even to the point of locking them with PK screws.

As my bowl gouge grinding jigs are based on the same jig and extra personally made copies of its form I have jigs permanently set to specific profiles.

As the Sorby Pro Edge uses the same profiling mechanism I see the need to do exactly the same for maximum ease and speed of use, like all tool types, there are many instances of needing more than one specimen pre-set to your needs if maximum speed and convenience of use is to be achieved.

Why do you need a set of chisels or half a dozen different sized Planes, won't one small one do the job?


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":ej9hdk4t said:


> Random Orbital Bob":ej9hdk4t said:
> 
> 
> > going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from.......//.....
> ...



You're right...it is fast. I even have spacer's screwed to my sharpening station bench with the appropriate settings to speed up different protrusion settings. Most of the time I do use the jigs. I think the time I tend to revert to freehand or card scraper is when my concentration is really focused on the piece. You know when you're really "in the zone" and the turning feels very natural and the tool control is as good as it gets for your skill. That's when I resent having my concentration too broken up with a mechanical operation. It'll be interesting to see how you develop with yours. I rarely use the angle jig for the skew now. I have the platen set at the 15 degree angle but I freehand the edge because I like a slight convex radius on the skew edge which helps to avoid catches when rolling beads and doing planing cuts. (It grinds the wings further back) So when grinding my skew, particularly the 1/2", I rock the edge side to side to keep the radius. That makes the little triangular insert jig redundant for me, the platen is doing all the donkey work by preserving the bevel angle and I eyeball the radius.


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## Jacob (22 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":3ajupgi5 said:


> Bob does have a point too Jacob....if you tried a slightly less "dogmatic" approach it might save a lot of grief.


I couldn't care less what people use but I'm not happy with the continuous repetition of the view ( perhaps coming from those with an engineering background?) that there is only one "correct" way to do these things.
I think it's quire useful to let people know that they don't have to buy all this kit, polish tools to a mirror flat finish etc etc there are interesting alternative ways which, until quite recently, were what everybody did, with no obvious detriment to their output.

One thing that crops up a lot in these threads is the bench grinder. I think these are really bad for sharpening, especially for beginners - even more so for turners. They are often recommended. This is misinformation in my view


woodpig":3ajupgi5 said:


> ..... Spending hours learning to sharpen free hand on a double ended grinder is a waste of time and tool steel. ....


Spot on!


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

CHJ":8qix4a97 said:


> Random Orbital Bob":8qix4a97 said:
> 
> 
> > ........going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from the crucial "muscle memory" zone I'm in with that particular piece and I don't want to be disturbed for fear of being thrown off.
> ...



It's funny actually Chas...my sharpening path as a consequence of turning has meandered a few times and I now have a veritable arsenal which plays directly to your point. The least time I spend sharpening, the happier I am and that either means you just freehand or you have dedicated setups. I have a bench grinder with the Tormek BGM-100 jig assembly thingummy permanently mounted with the Torlok toolrest. That takes care of all my scrapers and is almost always set at 80 degrees. All I do for a scraper is abrade any remaining burr off the top then grind a new edge in literally 2 passes. My Tormek is setup with the usb for my favourite bowl gouge because for some reason I think it gives a better ellipse than the PE on deep fluted gouges (don't ask me why...just feels right). I have a second SVD-185 set at a different knuckle setting for a different grind. So unless experimenting, I never have to do knuckle setting changes. I used to have wooden spacer blocks (a la Jeff Farris) for common other usb distance quick setups but now the PE has taken over. The PE has consumed all spindle gouge, skew, tipped tools and roughing gouge operations, oh yes and parting tools. I assumed when I bought the Tormek I would jettison the dry grinder and equally the PE, I would sell the Tormek. Quite the reverse has happened because they each now deliver a dedicated set of sharpening procedures which cuts the setup time. I don't like long setup times 

Free-handing has its place in there, that's all I'm saying. I couldn't live by it like Jacob advocates but I wouldn't want to be without it either. Having defended free-handing, I would still only put it at 5% of my usage personally.


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## DennisCA (22 Jun 2015)

I have a single cheap diamond plate and I've been freehand sharpening on this. It's been a bottleneck.

Recently I bought a simple and cheap jig for holding plane blades or chisels at a consistent angle. And boy did that jig improve my sharpening. Sharpened my smoother on it and it's never worked this well. 

I think the grit on the plate is 600, I wouldn't mind a bigger one but this grit allows me to get a good edge. I am not sure where to go from here to be honest. I could try for a se of diamond plates like paul sllers, with this jig I would get real good results from such a setup. Especially if I strop it later on.

The other route I had been planning a while now, that would be to build a rotary wet grinder, that is my own homemade Tormek. Since I have several suitable induction motors and I think it would be a wash money wise, this would be more complicated to build though, but perhaps more efficient and would allow me to spend the least time sharpening.


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

Jacob":37wh6nsm said:


> Random Orbital Bob":37wh6nsm said:
> 
> 
> > Bob does have a point too Jacob....if you tried a slightly less "dogmatic" approach it might save a lot of grief.
> ...



I think we get that 

No one is about to accuse you of not flying the flag for using traditional methods. As I've said many times before, I have a great deal of respect for those methods and the skills they drive. And in fairness, you have alerted the poster to the fact that free handing is a legitimate option so "job done" right? Perhaps if we all accepted there is more than one way these debates wouldn't generate quite as much unnecessary heat. You know, it's OK to do both


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

On the subject of getting polished mirror bevels and exact angles and all that....my turning club has a pro turner do a demo most months and I would say the vast majority of them freehand their gouges on a flash dry grinder like a Creusen. Some use a Tormek. Almost to a person, they tend to say, whether the bevel is 45 degrees or 50 or 42 doesn't matter a jot. On close inspection their bevels have more facets than.....a politicians press officer!

So I do believe there is a bit of a tendency to get just a bit anally retentive about all this, myself included. The priority of the professional is very clear to me....get back to the job as fast as possible. If that's not accessible for the amateur then jig up. Both methods have their uses.


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## Jacob (22 Jun 2015)

I've said it before (and I'll say it again!) IMHO the uttermost best value in powered sharpening kit is a Bosch GBH75 sander. It just sits on the bench upside down you don't need to fix it and you just do everything freehand - or make up some wooden blocks if you want to. Good value because it is also a really good sander.
Very cheap and excellent powered option is a sanding disc on the other end of your headstock. Make your own from a bit of ply on a face plate, velcro, etc. These are really handy. If the ply is thick enough you can put profiles on the edge for polishing inside/outside gouges (plus Autosol or similar) - handy for carvers.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Jun 2015)

I can't get a fingernail grind right freehand, so I use the club's jigs, but for bowl gouges the attraction to me is that I only take off a few thou of steel with jig - bowl gouges cost too much to waste just to prove a point. I agree with J. on the sanding disc - I've been grinding plane irons on one for 30+ years. I also had a suede strop on one as well. The one and only moan I here about the SPE from other turners is that they are used to working with hollow grinds, which of course don't come with it.


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

I agree fingernail grinds are tricky free hand and no mistake. That was kind of my point about the pro turners though, they don't care if its not pretty. They certainly do care that the cutting edge is where they want it to be though, just not the single facet bevel thing and certainly don't give a stuff about polish.


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## woodpig (22 Jun 2015)

There really isn't a right or wrong way provided it achieves the end result of cutting wood effectively.

Many years ago there weren't that many options. In practical terms most amateurs would use a double ended grinder because that was what they could afford. Wet grinders became another option for those that could afford them. You can, and many do, still use these methods to sharpen their tools. 

Move on some years and Sorby released their Pro Edge. I stand to be corrected but I believe this came about as Sorby sharpened their range of tools on a belt sander in the factory and decided to develop something suitable for home users.
The Pro Edge isn't cheap but for a specialist machine built in relatively small numbers compared to say a double ended grinder I believe it represents reasonable value for money. With built in pre set angles and jigs it is surely the quickest and easiest system *for new users*. The ability to change grades at will is unmatched using other machines. I also believe the Pro Edge to be somewhat safer than grinders due to the risks involved in poorly fitted wheels etc.

I can appreciate the time and effort required to free hand sharpen turning tools, particularly "finger nail" grinds but if you can afford the PE then it's a skill you simply don't need to learn in order to be a wood turner *unless you want to*.

It must be somewhat irksome to have spent many many hours learning to hand sharpen tools only to see a novice get the same results in a few minutes but things move on, there's no point in getting upset by it. Although I can appreciate the satisfaction of getting a keen edge on a tool it's just a neccesary chore for me, not something to be savoured!

At the end of the day though it's all about choice. Use what works for you and makes you happy, just stay safe. :wink:


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

Jacob":3rzdzm6e said:


> I've said it before (and I'll say it again!) IMHO the uttermost best value in powered sharpening kit is a Bosch GBH75 sander. It just sits on the bench upside down you don't need to fix it and you just do everything freehand - or make up some wooden blocks if you want to. Good value because it is also a really good sander.
> Very cheap and excellent powered option is a sanding disc on the other end of your headstock. Make your own from a bit of ply on a face plate, velcro, etc. These are really handy. If the ply is thick enough you can put profiles on the edge for polishing inside/outside gouges (plus Autosol or similar) - handy for carvers.



Did you buy the PE because it allowed you to just go faster then? I.e. because the platen could be positioned using the detents? In other words is your logic that the PE is essentially a Rolls Royce version of the sanding solution you describe above. A sort of "linisher on steroids" version of the plane belt sander inverted and clamped to a bench?


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## Jacob (22 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":2fq940o1 said:


> Jacob":2fq940o1 said:
> 
> 
> > I've said it before (and I'll say it again!) IMHO the uttermost best value in powered sharpening kit is a Bosch GBH75 sander. It just sits on the bench upside down you don't need to fix it and you just do everything freehand - or make up some wooden blocks if you want to. Good value because it is also a really good sander.
> ...


Yes that's it more or less. 
NB the GB 75 doesn't need clamping to the bench - it's a nice rectangular box shape and just sits there upside down.
The Proedge just that bit handier than a GB75 , a lot quieter, always in one spot and accessible. 
I try out all sorts of things that people go on about and often sell them on if I don't think they are worth it. But I'll keep the pro edge. No posh planes left at all!


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## Random Orbital Bob (22 Jun 2015)

Righto


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## Lons (22 Jun 2015)

So why keep an expensive pro edge Jacob if the Bosch does all you say it does? Why not sell it and use the proceeds to get several more belt sanders and set them up separately.

I don't disagree with your views on hand sharpening, it's one of my methods as well along with several others but they all work and all have their pros and cons.

I have 2 belt sanders as well as a large Axi belt & disc machine and non of them are substitutes for the pro edge. But that's my view for my circumstances and we're all different - are we not!


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## Castanea (22 Jun 2015)

This thread has been a really useful reminder to me to think about how I'm sharpening and why. I've been turning for 18 months but have been sharpenning chisels and plane irons for many years. My sharpening of turning tools is far from consistently good partly because I'm still playing with what's the best way for me. This long discussion has been fascinating and has really helped to clarify how many conflicting ways of sharpening there are along with exploring some of the pros and cons. Many thanks to all who've contributed - I think my sharpening (and hence my turning) is likely to improve as a result of reading through so many opinions and so much experience.


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## Rhossydd (22 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":1nuvc5vh said:


> I rarely use the angle jig for the skew now. I have the platen set at the 15 degree angle but I freehand the edge because I like a slight convex radius on the skew edge which helps to avoid catches when rolling beads and doing planing cuts. (It grinds the wings further back) So when grinding my skew, particularly the 1/2", I rock the edge side to side to keep the radius. That makes the little triangular insert jig redundant for me, the platen is doing all the donkey work by preserving the bevel angle and I eyeball the radius.


I don't think i would have bought the skew jig independently.
In my day of shaping and sharpening on Sunday, I re-visited all of my skews.
My favourite is a Sorby oval 1½" oval skew. Trying to use that on the flat bed of the jig was little better than on any bench grinder and the jig was no great help. I tend to only use it for final smoothing cuts so I try to keep it mirror sharp and polished like a carving tool, so fine sharpen it on a strop anyway.
Like you I also like a curved skew, here the exact angle from the SPE tool rest helps control the angle and the curve then is easy and quick to grind freehand.
I've also a couple of smaller skews for tight work and used the skew jig, which worked, but was no great advantage compared to just using the SPE rest.


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2015)

Lons":1fbgtb21 said:


> So why keep an expensive pro edge Jacob if the Bosch does all you say it does? Why not sell it and use the proceeds to get several more belt sanders and set them up separately.....!


If you need a sander a GB75 will double as a sharpener thanks to it's square box shape (no mounting etc). 
Principle drawback being the noise. 
A dedicated "sander" the Pro edge is better in general - quieter but for sharpening only, and a lot of additional expense. 
But a GB75 is much better than a Pro-edge if you want to shape a wide thick plane blade e.g. from an old woody or one of the modern retro designs. Choices, choices.

On jigs - if people want to use profiles which can _only_ be produced with a jig then jig it must be. But one might ask whether these profiles are necessary.


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## Random Orbital Bob (23 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":1gqbw19n said:


> Random Orbital Bob":1gqbw19n said:
> 
> 
> > I rarely use the angle jig for the skew now. I have the platen set at the 15 degree angle but I freehand the edge because I like a slight convex radius on the skew edge which helps to avoid catches when rolling beads and doing planing cuts. (It grinds the wings further back) So when grinding my skew, particularly the 1/2", I rock the edge side to side to keep the radius. That makes the little triangular insert jig redundant for me, the platen is doing all the donkey work by preserving the bevel angle and I eyeball the radius.
> ...



Yes the PE certainly hasn't helped solve the old problem of the oval skew being unstable because of the flat platform. I would probably have avoided buying the triangular jig too but I bought the PE a year ago 2nd hand (from here in fact) and it all came bundled. Where it does have a use is when restoring a seriously knackered skew. At a recent club meet I tend to get asked to bring the PE along and "help" some of the newer members with their sharpening training. Inevitably they bring their dinged chisels! Never in my life have I seen such badly treated skews! One chap had a "skew" that was basically square. I asked him was he sure it wasn't meant to be a scraper.....he looked upset! That sucker took about 20 minutes with the 60g ceramic and I was thankful for the guide that time to keep the 60 degree accurate. 

The other challenge we keep bumping into is getting a 30 degree bevel on a detail gouge....the handle fouls on the motor housing. I've been in dialogue with Sorby about it because it is quite a weak spot given any serious turner will need a spindle gouge that can access tight spots. They've told me they're "stir frying it in the corporate wok". Lets see if any mods come out??? You can get as low as 35 but a particularly gifted master turner from my club was disappointed it wouldn't and actually prevented him from buying one....so its clearly a major weakness.


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## Rhossydd (23 Jun 2015)

CHJ":3hnz9os4 said:


> And there is the crucial point about jigs and specifically those for winged gouges, to gain maximum benefit of speed and consistent profile of the jig you need a jig set and fixed for each tool.


If this was posted on Facebook or Twitter it should probably be tagged #firstworldproblem ;-)

I think it will only be the more advanced turners that own and use multiple winged gouges, so talking of needing a jig each gouge may mislead the novices who are reading this thread.
When starting out you can get a lot done with just the basic tools and the range of sharpening angles isn't that big to start with.


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## woodpig (23 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":3qbln15w said:


> I tend to only use it for final smoothing cuts so I try to keep it mirror sharp and polished like a carving tool, so fine sharpen it on a strop anyway.
> Like you I also like a curved skew, here the exact angle from the SPE tool rest helps control the angle and the curve then is easy and quick to grind freehand.
> I've also a couple of smaller skews for tight work and used the skew jig, which worked, but was no great advantage compared to just using the SPE rest.



That's quite timely for me. I bought a small skew some time ago that I've not used yet. When I checked my tools the other day I noticed it's (as bought) curved grind was quite rough so I guess I'll need to address that with a 240 grit belt.


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## Random Orbital Bob (23 Jun 2015)

The PE will eat that for breakfast. It really is no sweat at all to keep a gentle radiused edge because the platform keeps everything stable and angled correctly, you just gently rock the tool beyond the normal rake angle on each side


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":1l12tzm6 said:


> CHJ":1l12tzm6 said:
> 
> 
> > And there is the crucial point about jigs and specifically those for winged gouges, to gain maximum benefit of speed and consistent profile of the jig you need a jig set and fixed for each tool.
> ...




And to be honest this is another case of slight mis-quotes out of context that cause problems.
The original quote is from an article relating to the Tormek 'Touch and Turn' doctoring which is almost impossible to achieve in it's nth. degree without locked jigs due to the slow material removal. Requiring testing each time with felt tip pen markers to check etc. 

But it has a limited relevance to the same problem using more aggressive grinding media be it wheels or belts if speed of jig use is to match the speed of free hand grinding which for a novice may be a skill years down the line.

Any novice that is lead to believe that an all singing and dancing adjustable jig is going to make sharpening a simple breeze is in for the same frustrating education in practice to the fact that in a lot of instances it takes far longer to set up the jig than it does the actual refreshing of the cutting edge if you have more than one bevel profile.
Even two basic bowl gouges aiming at bulk material removal and finishing off the bottom of a deep bowl will need a jig adjustment.


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## woodpig (23 Jun 2015)

The Tormek jig could be better in this regard and perhaps Sorby should have made their own superior version?


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## Lons (23 Jun 2015)

Jacob":3m88cacj said:


> Lons":3m88cacj said:
> 
> 
> > So why keep an expensive pro edge Jacob if the Bosch does all you say it does? Why not sell it and use the proceeds to get several more belt sanders and set them up separately.....!
> ...



Fair enough Jacob
So in conclusion, 
1). The fact you won't part with your PE strongly suggests that it's a useful addition to your workshop and works well or you would sell it!
2). The op original question referred only to his chisels therefore the pro edge would handle those with ease.
3). If people want to use jigs then that's ok by you but maybe they shouldn't be using non standard profiles? In which case who says any profile should be a standard as originally profiles would have been arrived at by experimentation, exactly what some turners do regularly to achieve a specific aim.

Bob


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## Rhossydd (23 Jun 2015)

CHJ":27n4z2ow said:


> Any novice that is lead to believe that an all singing and dancing adjustable jig is going to make sharpening a simple breeze is in for the same frustrating education in practice to the fact that in a lot of instances it takes far longer to set up the jig than it does the actual refreshing of the cutting edge if you have more than one bevel profile.


Have you actually used a SPE ?
Swapping between angles on the tool rest really IS fast.
I never used fingernail grinds for years, so the standard gouge jig works well for spindle and bowl gouges and effectively needs no set up at all. However, as pointed out earlier, even swapping to a fingernail jig and popping the tool in takes less than 90s. Maybe add an extra minute first time to get the setting right, but it really is that simple.

For the budgetary challenged; It's not hard to make similarly fast to swap wooden jigs(tool rests) for a cheap bench grinder too.

The real message is that sharpening woodturning tools doesn't have to be a trial of skill, that's time consuming with a tricky learning curve. It can be fast and easy.


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## Lons (23 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":qioftyg4 said:


> Yes the PE certainly hasn't helped solve the old problem of the oval skew being unstable because of the flat platform. I would probably have avoided buying the triangular jig too but I bought the PE a year ago 2nd hand (from here in fact) and it all came bundled.



Same here Bob and I have't had my PE very long.
I personally don't find my oval skew any problem though without the triangular jig, however it would be very simple to make up a jig to suit the oval skew. Just a strip of metal runner screwed to a wood, plastic or metal carrier hollowed out to suit the curve of the skew. I might try it out of interest if I can find a spare half an hour.

cheers
Bob


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## Lons (23 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":17464rhh said:


> The real message is that sharpening woodturning tools doesn't have to be a trial of skill, that's time consuming with a tricky learning curve. It can be fast and easy.



And that is the real heart of any sharpening argument! =D> 

What some people don't seem to realise is that not everyone has spare time or even the motivation they want to spend learning hand sharpening skills, they work full time and have family and other commitments so time spent actually making things is scarce and not to be "wasted" on laborious tasks. They do however need sharp tools to achieve those aims so anything that produces a repeatable consistant sharp edge with the least effort is worthwhile considering. 
That applies to me even though I'm reasonably proficient at sharpening by hand but I keep that skill for my carving chisels these days.

Bob


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## Dalboy (23 Jun 2015)

With all the time spent discussing this topic you could all have turned something and posted it. All I say is each to their own.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jun 2015)

Yes, the bullet that might have been bitten has probably gone up in price by now.


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## Lons (23 Jun 2015)

Dalboy":28tngq54 said:


> With all the time spent discussing this topic you could all have turned something and posted it. All I say is each to their own.



I get a lot of coffee breaks Derek :wink: :lol:


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## Dalboy (23 Jun 2015)

Lons":k4xubak5 said:


> Dalboy":k4xubak5 said:
> 
> 
> > With all the time spent discussing this topic you could all have turned something and posted it. All I say is each to their own.
> ...




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You know me so well


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":5qc7rk6t said:


> CHJ":5qc7rk6t said:
> 
> 
> > Any novice that is lead to believe that an all singing and dancing adjustable jig is going to make sharpening a simple breeze is in for the same frustrating education in practice to the fact that in a lot of instances it takes far longer to set up the jig than it does the actual refreshing of the cutting edge if you have more than one bevel profile.
> ...



Yes I have, and if one eventually comes my way priced to suit my spare pocket money at the time I will probably get it, not necessarily for turning tools though, and I will expect it to join the other 5 sharpening machines I have set up for various tasks between wood and metal turning and flatwork.



Rhossydd":5qc7rk6t said:


> [Swapping between angles on the tool rest really IS fast.


 As it can be on any rest system suitably indexed, adjustment of the angles on a fingernail pivoting jig takes a little more care if you only have one to hand.



Rhossydd":5qc7rk6t said:


> For the budgetary challenged; It's not hard to make similarly fast to swap wooden jigs(tool rests) for a cheap bench grinder too.



If you have a look at my crude Projects listing I think it will be obvious that I am not averse to using basic tools and have encouraged others to do the same, and have over the last ten years stayed with the crudest setup that gives me the results I need.


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## bugbear (23 Jun 2015)

CHJ":2p51ys46 said:


> ... over the last ten years stayed with the crudest setup that gives me the results I need.



The old saying:

_"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler".
_
BugBear


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## Rhossydd (23 Jun 2015)

phil.p":2frpr3rg said:


> Yes, the bullet that might have been bitten has probably gone up in price by now.


These days that's not nearly so likely, quite possibly the reverse.
If it hadn't been for this thread I might not have noticed the current deal at Yandles which is the best I've ever seen and helped convince me to get the credit card out.


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## Rhossydd (23 Jun 2015)

Dalboy":27jihkzw said:


> With all the time spent discussing this topic you could all have turned something and posted it. All I say is each to their own.


No point in blundering on with blunt tools.
Forums aren't just for showing off, they're also for getting information, sharing experiences, discussing options and helping people. This thread has done a lot of the later.


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2015)

woodpig":3owoiwvz said:


> The Tormek jig could be better in this regard and perhaps Sorby should have made their own superior version?



I understand that there could have been problems with arguments about patent infringement and production costs that may have led to the original choice to use the Tormek head but one using the same geometry and dimensions but with fine knurled/milled face and location key between the two swivelling sections that allowed positive location of the two pieces in small degree steps could have been far superior to the 5 or 6 crude moulded indentations used as visual guides on the current unit for those wishing to adjust the angle at regular intervals.

When I was in a phase with fewer heads to set and was experimenting with needed geometry to get the shapes I wanted I used MDF templates to repeat the angle quicker and ignored the guide indentations.


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## Random Orbital Bob (23 Jun 2015)

woodpig":2bhl1ics said:


> The Tormek jig could be better in this regard and perhaps Sorby should have made their own superior version?



Sorby's elliptical grinding jig IS the Tormek jig. They licence it from Tormek as it's still patented.


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## woodpig (23 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":11k677zf said:


> woodpig":11k677zf said:
> 
> 
> > The Tormek jig could be better in this regard and perhaps Sorby should have made their own superior version?
> ...



Yes Bob, that's what I said. :roll:


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## Random Orbital Bob (23 Jun 2015)

I was just re-reading this when I realised my mistake...my apologies...its been a long day


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## Dalboy (23 Jun 2015)

Rhossydd":vwkdcj3r said:


> Dalboy":vwkdcj3r said:
> 
> 
> > With all the time spent discussing this topic you could all have turned something and posted it. All I say is each to their own.
> ...


I was trying to make light hearted comment some people have no sense of humour.
Sharpening is very important I never stated that it was not


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## Random Orbital Bob (23 Jun 2015)

I laughed Derek......apparently old grumpy guts doesn't do humour


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## woodpig (23 Jun 2015)

This Jig looks likely to be easier to set accurately than the Tormek:







Some others.

http://assets.rockler.com/media/catalog ... 1-1000.jpg

http://cdn.hartvilletool.com/images/upl ... _popup.jpg

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/Prod ... 146175.jpg


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## Jacob (23 Jun 2015)

woodpig":3jh34mkq said:


> This Jig looks likely to be easier to set accurately than the Tormek:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry to keep harping on but that looks like an incredibly elaborate and expensive bit of apparatus to do an extremely simple job. If someone finds simple sharpening that difficult surely the turning itself will be utterly beyond them.

Had to laugh at this lot: http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/index.php

OK if you were a tool maker/seller you might need one or two of these to get a nice factory perfect edge, but not if you are simply a tool user.
There's money in them thar jigs!


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2015)

That's the sort of thing I was on about, been trying to fathom how I can incorporate that in one of my homemade jigs, but not having a milling machine or dividing head is proving a limitation, currently working on making a finer indexing ring to fit on my metal lathe so that I can cut the 'teeth' using the cross slide as a shaper.


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## Dalboy (23 Jun 2015)

CHJ":2bl8tnxi said:


> That's the sort of thing I was on about, been trying to fathom how I can incorporate that in one of my homemade jigs, but not having a milling machine or dividing head is proving a limitation, currently working on making a finer indexing ring to fit on my metal lathe so that I can cut the 'teeth' using the cross slide as a shaper.



Cut a quadrant out of a gear with the correct amount of teeth and attach it. OK I'll get me coat Chas


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2015)

:lol: :lol: Been looking at gears, none of the old clockwork bits I have have enough teeth and old watches are too small.
Do have a couple of old small gearboxes somewhere from wartime frequency shift/jamming motors I'll have to dig out, they should have gears in them suitable although peripheral indexing will add bulk to the jig that a facial disc would not. 
Wonder if I have a fine tooth bevel gear somewhere?


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## Lons (23 Jun 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":1npx3w9b said:


> woodpig":1npx3w9b said:
> 
> 
> > The Tormek jig could be better in this regard and perhaps Sorby should have made their own superior version?
> ...



That I didn't know. Does that mean it will fit straight on to my T7?


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## woodpig (23 Jun 2015)

Almost. On the Sorby the jig mounts in a boss. On the Tormek it's mounted on a sleeve.


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## Castanea (11 Jul 2015)

Whilst I know I shouldn't re-ignite this thread I just saw Ben's unboxing of a Pro Edge at Crimson Guitars and it was interesting. He's promising a full review later too so might be worth looking out for. For now though a quick (and very enthusiastic) look at the Pro Edge on YouTube http://youtu.be/-puPKH6V2ws


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## marcros (12 Jul 2015)

26 and a half minutes of watching somebody take something out of a box? I was sharpening stuff on mine after 5 mins...


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## woodpig (12 Jul 2015)

He seemed to like it didn't he!

I suggested one of the departments at work get a Pro Edge but they weren't interested at first despite the obvious advantages of the system. About a year later I tried again and printed off the manual and some sales blurb from the Sorby site. They relented and bought one. When they unboxed it I could tell they were impressed, I think they waited until the following day though before ordering a second one and two sets of every jig available! :lol:


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