# Pits in my turning



## A.Turner (18 Aug 2015)

Hello,

I've dried some logs I collected from a work colleague and cut them into smaller pieces. When I turn them I notice large pits. What I also notice is that in the direction it was cut the surface is smooth, but the other direction it is rough, examples:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-c-WooFXti...WD0/XC5N7Nf3Gd8/s1600/2015-08-17+20.51.53.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sdwfuLe_p...WDw/Y6iW52VwozY/s1600/2015-08-17+20.52.10.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iN9W4O81o...WD8/pDQ6XdtJ_5E/s1600/2015-08-17+20.52.32.jpg

I don't know what kind of wood it is but I've gotten similar, albeit smaller, on pine as well. It's as if bits of wood are being ripped out yet it only occurs in patches. The tools are sharp and I cut slowly.

What is causing this?


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## NickWelford (18 Aug 2015)

Soft wood plus end grain, plus, how sharp are your tools, really? Take the smallest of cuts.


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## A.Turner (18 Aug 2015)

Just read this : http://www.turningtools.co.uk/wtintro/grain/grain.html. Makes sense but I can't actually see the grain in the wood. I suppose, logically, if the sides are the end grain then the grain must be flowing along the bed in which case on the surface I am cutting across the grain.

So I need to turn my wood like this: https://picasaweb.google.com/100006047484245559277/WoodTurning#6184307406010345618?

As I generally only have access to logs destined for somebodies wood burner it'd require chucking away a lot of wood.


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## Dave Brookes (18 Aug 2015)

No, you don't necessarily have to turn your wood like that; sharp tools and perhaps a faster spindle speed should be able to overcome the problem. However, if the wood is a bit soft, you could use some wood hardener before the final cut and sanding (providing of course that the grain tear-out is not too deep).
The Toolpost in Didcot sell a relly good wood hardener which works! Also, it does not tend to discolour the wood.

Dave


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## A.Turner (18 Aug 2015)

The example pieces were cut at 4000RPM, the tools are as sharp as I can do on my basic grinder. My next purchase will be a proper sharpening system, but they are inexplicably expensive. I wouldn't know if the wood is soft or not, where the pits are feels like plastic bristles though. It reminds me a great deal of a dead sunflower head with all the seeds missing.


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## Dave Brookes (18 Aug 2015)

If you cannot resolve the issue then feel free to come to our next Hands-On club meeting, Didcot & District Woodturners &.30pm on Wednesday 26th August. I know its a fair way, but our August meeting is always held at the Toolpost and there will be plenty of assistance and suggestions to help you.

Dave


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## Paul.J (18 Aug 2015)

Looks like the wood has spalted but now gone too far so will be difficult to get a good finish on unless you want to spend time trying to harden it.


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## A.Turner (18 Aug 2015)

Didcot is indeed a bit of a trek, but thanks for the offer.

There is only one club in my locality, they meet once a month and every other meet is a demo. Not very helpful when you need mentoring.

Spalted. I get the wood for free so I use whatever I am given and am grateful for it. The cost of ready dried wood is prohibitive for a minor hobby though I have bought a couple of pine balustrades from B&Q before.

I shall try another piece and cut sliver by sliver. I tend to cut fast because a) I can and b) my free time is very limited.


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## NickWelford (18 Aug 2015)

A bit of one to one hands on tuition is worth considering.


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## pennardesign (18 Aug 2015)

A.Turner":1nx2hyji said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've dried some logs I collected from a work colleague and cut them into smaller pieces. When I turn them I notice large pits. What I also notice is that in the direction it was cut the surface is smooth, but the other direction it is rough, examples:
> 
> ...



This used to plague me, I now keep my tools super sharp and only take a few cuts with the scraper before I sharpen it (leaving the burr on the tool edge) hope this helps. I also seal end grain before I sand it with a sanding sealer.


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## A.Turner (18 Aug 2015)

To clarify my cutting speed! I cut shallow but fast, hot knife trough butter.

I use the wheel that came with my grinder and I suspect it is quite rough and will do little for tool longevity. I see Axminster do a frame I can stick on my grinder http://www.axminster.co.uk/storme-woodturner-s-sharpening-system, that be an affordable solution, along with a better wheel.


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## chipmunk (18 Aug 2015)

I think it's also probably to do with the angle your cutting edge is to the timber during the cut and whether the bevel is rubbing.
I suspect you are not slicing the wood fibres but presenting the tool more or less square-on and the bevel isn't anywhere near rubbing.

Try using a skew-type planing cut with a rubbing bevel and if your cutting edge is sharp enough I think you should eliminate that tear-out.

If not then it's the wood - burn it or give it away and get yourself something that'll cut better. 
HTH
Jon


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## NickWelford (18 Aug 2015)

The wheel that comes with the grinder is quite unsuitable for sharpening chisels. You need a white or red wheel


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## chipmunk (18 Aug 2015)

NickWelford":2id3hvq8 said:


> The wheel that comes with the grinder is quite unsuitable for sharpening chisels. You need a white or red wheel



Well I agree that red or white wheels are better but I'm not sure that is strictly true. Provided the wheel is well dressed and unglazed, and a cheap devil stone will do that job, and it is used lightly and the tool not allowed to get too hot, even a grey wheel will do the job.

Jon


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## NickWelford (18 Aug 2015)

chipmunk":1dqvdh1x said:


> NickWelford":1dqvdh1x said:
> 
> 
> > The wheel that comes with the grinder is quite unsuitable for sharpening chisels. You need a white or red wheel
> ...



But it generally leaves the edge 'ragged'


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## chipmunk (18 Aug 2015)

NickWelford":136cwscs said:


> But it generally leaves the edge 'ragged'



Sorry Nick, but doesn't that depend on the grit of the wheel? Not all grey wheels are coarse IME.


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## Paul Hannaby (19 Aug 2015)

Unless I missed something, you didn't mention which tool you used for cutting those pieces of wood. Which was it?

Regarding cutting with the grain, that would entail cutting from the wider diameter to the smaller diameter on spindle work where the grain is running parallel to the lathe bed (as it is with your examples).


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## A.Turner (20 Aug 2015)

3/8" spindle gouge. It's Axminsters own http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-hss-woodturning-tools-set


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## Mark Hancock (20 Aug 2015)

To me it looks like a combination of factors, some of which have already been mentioned:
1. quality of timber
2. sharpness of tool
3. speed of lathe - 4000 rpm is extremely fast for a wood turning lathe?
4. grind on tool
5. angle of presentation of tool
6. feed rate of tool
7. grain orientation

I would strongly suggest you look into getting some tuition. It saves a lot of frustration and time in the long run.


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## finneyb (21 Aug 2015)

Axminster Nuneaton are offering free sharpening during August http://www.axminster.co.uk/stores/nuneaton/#
Check the limitations.

That will tell you if its the tools causing the problem

Brian


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## A.Turner (21 Aug 2015)

Thanks for all the suggestions, so many things to consider!

I am going to Axminster Nuneaton tomorrow and will take a piece with me. I'm getting their sharpening jig and also a pink stone.


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## Dave Brookes (21 Aug 2015)

Take your tools with you so that they can demonstrate how good the equipment is; then you will have had them 'expertly' sharpened!

Dave


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## leisurefix (24 Aug 2015)

The timber looks a bit like Tulip wood, I have found this wood extremely difficult to cut cleanly when dry (cuts lovely when wet though), and had similar break out, reminded me of balsa wood. It was possible to get a reasonable finish by using the gouge on its side a bit so that the cutting edge was at about 45 degrees from vertical, so making a more skewed slice. Just treat it as a test piece for style/design, and turning technique, then burn it. Using difficult timbers can be quite good as you will have to have really good technique, but it can also be really frustrating if you try and produce a perfect item.


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## KimG (25 Aug 2015)

Getting a clean cut on end grain like that is very tricky and if the wood is punky (half rotted) then no matter how sharp the tool, you will still get some tear out (the pits).

One tool I have found that does make the very best end grain cuts with absolute minimal tear out though is based on Cindy Drozda's Vortex tool. I made my own from carbon steel and it cuts very well indeed, but the actual product she sells is almost certainly going to be a lot better still if it's within your budget.

Video of the tool.


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## A.Turner (25 Aug 2015)

The wood is a common tree from a colleagues house out in the country, I don't remember what though. 

I bought the sharpening jig and a white stone. On the existing pieces I could clean up the pits on most surfaces, but the steep cut on the one piece is still pitted. I will try and do a new piece this evening and see what results I get.


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## Dalboy (25 Aug 2015)

KimG":1rqk3ul9 said:


> Getting a clean cut on end grain like that is very tricky and if the wood is punky (half rotted) then no matter how sharp the tool, you will still get some tear out (the pits).
> 
> One tool I have found that does make the very best end grain cuts with absolute minimal tear out though is based on Cindy Drozda's Vortex tool. I made my own from carbon steel and it cuts very well indeed, but the actual product she sells is almost certainly going to be a lot better still if it's within your budget.
> 
> Video of the tool.



That looks like a great tool will have to make one.


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## A.Turner (25 Aug 2015)

That has made a noticeable difference but I find it is still pitting on the ends where I used a parting tool to make the ends straight (I saw the stubs off) and also in the bottom of steep cuts where I guess it is turning into end grain.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OlTaNq9lO...WVg/DVxzRVsxL8A/s1600/2015-08-25+17.31.12.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S_ogoEgwR...WVc/UIEbNso-iE0/s1600/2015-08-25+17.31.31.jpg

I think I may have found a local place where I can get some regular help https://www.facebook.com/umakeworkshop, see what happens when/if I go.


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## Dalboy (25 Aug 2015)

A.Turner":21iqjiw3 said:


> That has made a noticeable difference but I find it is still pitting on the ends where I used a parting tool to make the ends straight (I saw the stubs off) and also in the bottom of steep cuts where I guess it is turning into end grain.
> 
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OlTaNq9lO...WVg/DVxzRVsxL8A/s1600/2015-08-25+17.31.12.jpg
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S_ogoEgwR...WVc/UIEbNso-iE0/s1600/2015-08-25+17.31.31.jpg
> ...



This is where the skew chisel comes into it own but you would need to use the parting toll a little away from the end and use a very sharp skew chisel to clean the ends


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## heronviewer (26 Aug 2015)

I'm interested in the vortex tool - it looks useful - but I'm not going to buy one at that price ! It would be fairly easy to make, harden and temper but I wonder about the shape.
Unfortunately http://www.cindydrozda.com/Assets/html/ ... pening.pdf gives a 404 and is not available any more. Anyone got a copy of the pdf or the details of the shape and would be willing to passs them on ?

Robert.


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## Rhossydd (26 Aug 2015)

heronviewer":36ptagg2 said:


> I'm interested in the vortex tool -/.../ is not available any more.


The route to it has changed, it's now at http://www.cindydrozda.com/handouts_Pdf ... pening.pdf

Although the photos aren't really good enough to really work out the subtleties of the shape and cutting geometry.

I'm not sure that this particular tool would help the OP with his particular problem though. The Vortex is designed specifically for work on tiny finials.
From what I can see and have read here; the OP's main issue is not using the most appropriate tool for the cut and not having sufficiently sharp tools either, with poor quality timber being the final aspect that prevents success.


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## A.Turner (26 Aug 2015)

What would be good timber and more importantly where do I get it? I have asked this before elsewhere and nobody can point me to a supplier in Birmingham.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2015)

If you have to buy wood for turning, look at Home of Wood (on line) - they do some decent offers and good prices. Nice quality stuff, as well.


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## A.Turner (26 Aug 2015)

Interesting, I'll have a better look/drool when I get home. Thanks for that.


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## Dave Brookes (26 Aug 2015)

Have a look on the AWGB Website, there are at least three clubs in the Birmingham area and I would be amazed if you didn't get endless help from members.
If that is not the case then the offer of help from the Didcot Club still stands. We have a wood supplier who comes to our meetings with a plentiful assortment of timber for sale although it is pot luck as to what he brings.

Dave


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## heronviewer (26 Aug 2015)

Thank you !

Yes, the photographs are not really good enough to work it out. I'll try a bit of photo enhancing to see if I can get a better idea.


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## Rhossydd (26 Aug 2015)

heronviewer":2yfero5g said:


> Yes, the photographs are not really good enough to work it out. I'll try a bit of photo enhancing to see if I can get a better idea.


I doubt that'll help much.
I've just been watching Cindy's DVD on making finials and having seen it in use now, I'm _still_ not completely sure I understand the exact geometry of that tool.

I think it's success is due to the niche nature of it. It only gets bought by experienced turners like KimG that already know how to put a perfect edge on it and how and when to use it. I don't think it would be a helpful purchase for a beginner that lacks the core skills of sharpening and tool selection.


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## heronviewer (26 Aug 2015)

It looks like a 25 degree bevel on the tip and sides rounded off to the full 6mm diameter with a flat on the top. I can't decide how pointed the very tip is.

I have a 3/16" gouge that I use sometimes but it will chatter unless I take very light cuts, which is what is recommended for the vortex tool. It seems to be just a very small pointed scraper to me and only useful in limited circumstances. Might be worth making one though.


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## Rhossydd (26 Aug 2015)

heronviewer":38h4qcox said:


> It seems to be just a very small pointed scraper to me


No, it's very specifically designed as a cutting tool not a scraper.
http://www.cindydrozda.com/html/Tool_Info.html
_"The vortex tool is "a gouge with no flute and a skew with no heel". It can slice endgrain like a skew or make very clean vee-groove details and define the v-shaped space between beads. Excellent for finishing a bead next to a square pommel. Used for light finishing cuts.
*Vortex is not to be used as a scraper*."_


> only useful in limited circumstances. Might be worth making one though.


Quite. An awkward shape to grind nicely and symmetrically, but for the cost of a length of HSS rod, worth experimenting with the form to suit yourself.


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## Silverbirch (26 Aug 2015)

Post deleted


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## Silverbirch (26 Aug 2015)

A.Turner":25wpps1r said:


> What would be good timber and more importantly where do I get it? I have asked this before elsewhere and nobody can point me to a supplier in Birmingham.



Beech and sycamore are both good timbers to practice with and easy to get hold of, though I can`t tell you specifically where in your area.


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## Robbo3 (26 Aug 2015)

You have to remember (or know) that some wood will never cut cleanly across the end grain & in time you will learn which pieces are worth spending time on. The piece that you show is only for practice & therefore is not - unless you are determined to continue & perfect your technique.

Your link to Umake workshops doesn't show a lathe & looks to be a place for those who don't have their own workshops to make things rather than a teaching venue. IMHO, a woodturning club is likely to be much more valuable for your purposes.


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## KimG (27 Aug 2015)

Rhossydd":3lknkq4n said:


> heronviewer":3lknkq4n said:
> 
> 
> > I'm interested in the vortex tool -/.../ is not available any more.
> ...



Although Cindy Drozda may use the vortex primarily for finials, it's by no means limited to that purpose, like any turning tool, it has a primary function (in the case of the vortex tool that is detail rather than finial) but can also serve in other capacities equally well if used correctly. 

The pair of candlesticks below had all their detail and the base cut entirely with my homemade version of the tool, the wood being Sycamore was also slightly punky and inclined to fracture out on the end grain, I got an exceptionaly clean cut with the tool which greatly reduce the amount of sanding required to get a highly polished finish on the base and around the rim at the top. By no means would the tool be unsuitable for the OP.













Just as a by the by, these sticks took 2nd prize in the matched pair class at our recent county show, I was well pleased (yes there were more than 2 entries!  )


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## heronviewer (27 Aug 2015)

Could you give some details of your own version of the tool please ? It looks as though it is very effecive for that sort of work !


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## Dalboy (27 Aug 2015)

KimG":2wq9licv said:


> Although Cindy Drozda may use the vortex primarily for finials, it's by no means limited to that purpose, like any turning tool, it has a primary function (in the case of the vortex tool that is detail rather than finial) but can also serve in other capacities equally well if used correctly.
> 
> The pair of candlesticks below had all their detail and the base cut entirely with my homemade version of the tool, the wood being Sycamore was also slightly punky and inclined to fracture out on the end grain, I got an exceptionaly clean cut with the tool which greatly reduce the amount of sanding required to get a highly polished finish on the base and around the rim at the top. By no means would the tool be unsuitable for the OP.
> 
> ...



Well done on a second Kim a well deserved placing


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## KimG (29 Aug 2015)

heronviewer":aguiopa3 said:


> Could you give some details of your own version of the tool please ? It looks as though it is very effecive for that sort of work !



Yeah, I'll pop a couple of pics up in a day or so and describe how I made them.

Cheers Derek, I did pretty well overall at the show, three categories, faceplate, between centres and matched pair. I got first and second in the "between centres" class, I got first and third in the faceplate class and second for the pair, so I was well pleased with that.


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## heronviewer (29 Aug 2015)

Thank you - I'll be very interested to see them.


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## Dalboy (29 Aug 2015)

KimG":3fmv41k9 said:


> heronviewer":3fmv41k9 said:
> 
> 
> > Could you give some details of your own version of the tool please ? It looks as though it is very effecive for that sort of work !
> ...



Maybe you could put your entries into another thread Kim as I for one would be interested in seeing them as I feel that they are worthy of being shown off :wink:


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## KimG (30 Aug 2015)

apart from a little finial box (which I must photograph) you have seen the other entries, the natural edged laburnum bowl which I put in the summer comp took a first, the spalted beech box I did for the winter comp took third, the very thin goblet I did a good while back took first in the spindle turning, the little finial box took second and the candlesticks already seen. I will pop a picture of the box up when I get it photographed.


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