# 2.8m Long Table; 4 or 6 legs?



## Togalosh (14 Feb 2019)

Evening Gents,
I am to make a long slender farmhouse style dining table from oak & I would appreciate your help with 1 or 2 aspects of the design please.

The table is a copy of what I made years ago but a lot longer.. almost twice as long. The table top is to be 35mm thick with bread board ends & maybe 1 bread board in the centre to aid assembly on site as my van isn't 2.8m long inside. Besides at 2.8m it'd mean a lot of heavy lifting ( I was told years ago that I am no spring chicken). 

The skirts/rails (?) are 100mm wide x 35mm thick which will be double haunched M&T's into 90mm2 legs. The top is held in place by oak tabs (?).

Excuse the poor drawing.. it's my 1st go at digital plans.

View attachment NHI Table 1.pdf


So my main concern is that with only 4 legs the 2.8m table top will sag in the middle. I am I correct in thinking it really needs 6 legs or should it be fine as drawn?

4 legs looks better so if there is a chance of sagging then can I add more support rails underneath (like a torsion box).. or maybe something like an "i beam" running the length of the top?

Also; if my van is not long enough how do I assemble the base on site - can I use sliding dovetails instead of M&Ts ?.. maybe I should hire a bigger van.

As ever your help would be greatly appreciated.

Togs


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## Togalosh (14 Feb 2019)

View attachment NHI Table 4 legs.pdf

or this more like..


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## MikeG. (14 Feb 2019)

A centre breadboard/muntin(?) would really weaken this. That would take all of the structural strength out of the table top, meaning that the only longitudinal strength came from the skirt. I would have a rethink on that 'twere it me. Secondly, do the legs need to be at the corners? If they were inset one place setting from each end then that really horrible central leg idea would be completely unnecessary. Have you worked out how a central leg would go in relation to the place settings and chairs?

Personally, I'd be pretty confident that 135mm to structural depth was plenty for that span. However, I would be carefully analysising where the chairs would be going, and then I'd move the legs inboard, and worry no more.


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2019)

Yes, bring the legs in a bit so there's say 500mm overhang and just 1.8m between legs. It's quite common and traditional with big tables. Also convenient - no table legs at the end getting in the way of chairs.
I wouldn't bother with breadboard ends - just added complication.
The secret of designing common items like this is to have a very good look at some examples, otherwise you are re-inventing the wheel, and risk getting things wrong.
I'd also bring the legs in to make a bigger overhang on the length, say 80mm or so.


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## Just4Fun (14 Feb 2019)

My dining table is 3m long and has 4 legs (at the corners). The top is 45mm thick with no breadboards. There is no sign of any sag.


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## Jacob (14 Feb 2019)

Pictures here, 2.5m table
http://interiorboutiques.com/product/an ... use-table/


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## Togalosh (14 Feb 2019)

MikeG.":skkdrurz said:


> A centre breadboard/muntin(?) would really weaken this. That would take all of the structural strength out of the table top, meaning that the only longitudinal strength came from the stretchers. I would have a rethink on that 'twere it me. Secondly, do the legs need to be at the corners? If they were inset one place setting from each end then that really horrible central leg idea would be completely unnecessary. Have you worked out how a central leg would go in relation to the place settings and chairs?
> 
> Personally, I'd be pretty confident that 135mm to structural depth was plenty for that span. However, I would be carefully analysising where the chairs would be going, and then I'd move the legs inboard, and worry no more.



Ah, yes.. now you have pointed it out I can see that the centre board is a weakness. It's looking more likely I need a bigger van. I left it in beause I was sure 6 legs was the best option.

I put the legs 75mm in from the edge as it leaves 630 per person..again based on the awful 6 leg plan... but 600 would do at a squeeze.

Thanks.


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## Togalosh (14 Feb 2019)

Jacob":ygh8aok0 said:


> Yes, bring the legs in a bit so there's say 500mm overhang and just 1.8m between legs. It's quite common and traditional with big tables. Also convenient - no table legs at the end getting in the way of chairs.
> I wouldn't bother with breadboard ends - just added complication.
> The secret of designing common items like this is to have a very good look at some examples, otherwise you are re-inventing the wheel, and risk getting things wrong.
> I'd also bring the legs in to make a bigger overhang on the length, say 80mm or so.



My poor drawing does not show the overhand of 75mm each way but I can defiantely remeasure to bring them in more along the length. I haven't noticed the legs interfering with moving the of chairs on my existing table.. but that's not to say they haven't...hhmm???

The bread boards are also for character along with hand cut dowels etc.. plus I like them & they are not that much effort to do.

I have spent a lot of time trawaling the web & looking under tables wherever I go & have seen both 4 & 6 legged examples but only 1 like mine & that photo did not show what I needed to see.

Thanks 
Togs


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## Togalosh (14 Feb 2019)

Just4Fun":s8kax0bc said:


> My dining table is 3m long and has 4 legs (at the corners). The top is 45mm thick with no breadboards. There is no sign of any sag.



Ace ..Have you got a skirt/stretcher/rail M&T'd into the legs, how old is your table ?

All the photo's of long tables had thicker looking tops.. not sure I have the stock to do 45mm though !..

Thanks
Togs


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## Togalosh (14 Feb 2019)

Jacob":1jihlsn4 said:


> Pictures here, 2.5m table
> http://interiorboutiques.com/product/an ... use-table/



Ha .. that's it. It's stood the test of time too & yes that extra overhand at the end looks good.
Nice one Jacob.

This is my original


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## dzj (15 Feb 2019)

A made a pair of such tables. 3m x 1.5m. Four legs, Oak, no breadboards.
(2009, where has the time gone, eh?)


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## Racers (15 Feb 2019)

How about a single central leg in the middle of a stretcher? it should be out of the way.


Pete


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## Jacob (15 Feb 2019)

Togalosh":bbaltugg said:


> Jacob":bbaltugg said:
> 
> 
> > Pictures here, 2.5m table
> ...


I wonder about the top - it's not as nicely made as the undercarriage - could be sawn off bread board ends, or even a new top with old boards?


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## Just4Fun (15 Feb 2019)

Togalosh":5bh0ute7 said:


> Ace ..Have you got a skirt/stretcher/rail M&T'd into the legs, how old is your table ?


There is a skirt along all 4 sides, attached to the top. From the outside it looks as if it is M&T'd into the legs but that is an illusion. Look behind and you will see that the legs are removable, held in place by a bolt and metal bracket, flat-pack style. I didn't make this table myself, I had it made as a custom size by a company who normally make flat-pack furniture, so I guess I got what I deserve. In reality it has been fine, with no racking, sagging or other problems so I shouldn't complain.

I have just been to measure it and the sizes are:
Top: 3000 x 1100 x 45
Legs 80 x 80 x 710 (to under side of top)
Rails are 75 x 25

One thing I had forgotten is that there are 4 cross rails (50 x 25) on the underside of the top, evenly spaced over the length. I am not sure what these achieve as they are not connected to the side rails and, at 900 long, they don't even span the full width of the table.

According to a date stamped on the inside of one of the rails the table was made 6 August 2006, which tallies with my memory of when we ordered it.


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## Jacob (15 Feb 2019)

Just4Fun":unteyoh5 said:


> .....
> One thing I had forgotten is that there are 4 cross rails (50 x 25) on the underside of the top, evenly spaced over the length. I am not sure what these achieve as they are not connected to the side rails and, at 900 long, they don't even span the full width of the table.
> ....


They work the same as guitar sound board bracing download/file.php?id=75184&mode=view
keep a wide thin joined board flat and allowing for movement. Sound quality doesn't matter though! 
It's common on round tables - very wide boards with a lot of potential movement, and allows for thinner boards


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## custard (15 Feb 2019)

Togalosh":3kqp3izf said:


> I am to make a long slender farmhouse style dining table from oak
> The table is a copy of what I made years ago but a lot longer.. almost twice as long. The table top is to be 35mm thick with bread board ends & maybe 1 bread board in the centre to aid assembly on site as my van isn't 2.8m long inside. Besides at 2.8m it'd mean a lot of heavy lifting ( I was told years ago that I am no spring chicken).
> 
> The skirts/rails (?) are 100mm wide x 35mm thick which will be double haunched M&T's into 90mm2 legs. The top is held in place by oak tabs (?).
> ...




I've made several tables at this length, four legs is perfectly adequate provided the side aprons rails are at least 30mm thick.

Your proposed six leg plan has a few serious problems though. You might get away with that centre joint for a few years in a very quiet household, but two or three house moves would definitely see that joint fail.

I suspect this is a case of the tail wagging the dog, in that the size of your van is dictating the design. I'd say build it full length with four legs, then just hire or borrow a bigger van.


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## Togalosh (15 Feb 2019)

Racers":31glj2up said:


> How about a single central leg in the middle of a stretcher? it should be out of the way.Pete



Hello Pete,
That was my 2nd thought .. but again I dismissed it as no one else has done it... & that it also looks odd. Odd is what I usually like but something just didn't feel right... also if the floor isn't level then that'd lead to more wobbling.

Togs


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## Togalosh (15 Feb 2019)

[/quote]I've made several tables at this length, four legs is perfectly adequate provided the side aprons rails are at least 30mm thick.

Your proposed six leg plan has a few serious problems though. You might get away with that centre joint for a few years in a very quiet household, but two or three house moves would definitely see that joint fail.

I suspect this is a case of the tail wagging the dog, in that the size of your van is dictating the design. I'd say build it full length with four legs, then just hire or borrow a bigger van.[/quote]

Hello Custard,
You say a 30mm thick (side to side ? ) apron.. I thought the height (top to bottom) was the crucial measurement... What would you recommend for the height (top to bottom ) ?

You are correct in your opinion that the tail is wagging the dog.. I will hire another van & make the table as it must be made. I still have to carry the thing in by myself & they don't make gluten free wheatabix ..

Thanks
Togs


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## Togalosh (15 Feb 2019)

Jacob":1dwn10uu said:


> Togalosh":1dwn10uu said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1dwn10uu said:
> ...



The top is surprisingly thin & the legs suspiciously coloured..


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## MikeG. (15 Feb 2019)

I'm wondering about your forum name, Togalosh. Is it based on the Southern and Eastern African boogie-man? I know him as Tokolosh, and we have a statue in the corner of the lounge be bought in, I think, Malawi.


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## Togalosh (15 Feb 2019)

dzj":40102r4g said:


> A made a pair of such tables. 3m x 1.5m. Four legs, Oak, no breadboards.
> (2009, where has the time gone, eh?)



Hello Djz,

Nice tables. They look like they could withstand anything. 
What is the top's thickness & the apron dimensions please?

Is that an architrave under the top.. I have never seen that before.

Thanks
Togs


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## Togalosh (15 Feb 2019)

MikeG.":2ktkp70x said:


> I'm wondering about your forum name, Togalosh. Is it based on the Southern and Eastern African boogie-man? I know him as Tokolosh, and we have a statue in the corner of the lounge be bought in, I think, Malawi.



Yes, from South Africa as I know of them (& further afield no doubt as the 'black' /negro /bantu cultures & languages have the same common & recent origin from central Africa).. but I spelt it wrongly by mistake a long time ago & I kept it. It is really not the best thing to associate myself with or go by as you really do not want a real Tokalosh in your house !.. unless it's yours of course.


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## Jacob (15 Feb 2019)

Togalosh":2hpal1fm said:


> .....
> You are correct in your opinion that the tail is wagging the dog.. I will hire another van & make the table as it must be made. I still have to carry the thing in by myself & they don't make gluten free wheatabix ..
> 
> Thanks
> Togs


I've done big ones with the top held by buttons. I put the top on the roof rack and the frame inside the van. Inset legs makes a shorter frame!
Then carry it in in two pieces and entertain the client while you put it back together upside down.


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## dzj (15 Feb 2019)

Togalosh":ptohr0qw said:


> Hello Djz,
> 
> Nice tables. They look like they could withstand anything.
> What is the top's thickness & the apron dimensions please?
> ...


Hi,
The tables were built for a semi-basement room. Because of their size and weight, getting them down the staircase wasn't possible, so we opted for the windows. Unfortunately, they were only about a meter wide, so the tables had to be finished in the shop, taken apart and re-assembled on site. 
The top is ~4cm Oak and the apron was IIRC 10cm x 4cm Beech with 2 or 3 cross members. The legs were bolted with twin hanger bolts and heavy duty metal corner braces. There was no traditional joinery, but rather all elements were affixed with carriage bolts (drilled through the apron) and a variety of braces. 
The architrave/ moulding was there to cover the unsightly apron. It was made as a 'free floating' frame so the miters wouldn't open up due to seasonal movement. 
The tabletop had to be made in two 3m x .75m parts. They were connected with a series of connector bolts and indexed with 10mm dowels .

Nowadays their kids play ping pong on them. Sic transit...


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## Jacob (16 Feb 2019)

Togalosh":1y57tvgl said:


> Jacob":1y57tvgl said:
> 
> 
> > Togalosh":1y57tvgl said:
> ...


I thought the legs were fine but the top a bit thick and unfinished - you can see the tongues and grooves. 25mm would be fine but it looks a bit like re-cycled heavy floor boards.
NB most of the tables shown in this thread seem to be massively over size in detail, bomb-proof seems to be a fashion, or just people being over cautious?
Look at Richards guitar top: guitar-2-t115847.html?hilit=guitar
Only 2 or 3mm thick but rigid and stable. If you scaled this up 10 times to make 3m wide table it'd only be about 30mm thick; OK with well thought out bracing.
OTOH Andy's cautiously engineered heavy design like a helicopter landing pad! pedestal-table-design-question-t115777.html


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## custard (16 Feb 2019)

Togalosh":3s4gkvf8 said:


> You say a 30mm thick (side to side ? ) apron.. I thought the height (top to bottom) was the crucial measurement... What would you recommend for the height (top to bottom ) ?



You raise an interesting point. The reason I emphasised the thickness of the apron is because the width (the top to bottom measurement) is constrained by the simple ergonomics of table design. 

You don't want the top of the table to be much higher than about 30", in fact if the table will be regularly used by children you might want to lop an inch off that. But at the same time you don't want the bottom of the aprons to drop much below 23" or you won't have enough room for your knees to comfortably fit under, personally I prefer 24"-24 1/2"" of clearance. Dining chair seats are normally about 16" or 16 1/2" high and you want at the very minimum 6 1/2" thigh clearance, and 7 1/2" or 8" makes for a much more pleasant eating experience.

Because I mainly make tables designed for adults to eat at, they tend to have the top of the table at 30" high, and the bottom of the apron at 24 1/2" high. Given that the top will be 1"-1 1/4" thick it means my aprons are normally a shade over 4" wide. So with the width of the apron constrained, for a long table I'll therefore make the apron thickness at least 1 1/4", or 30mm. To give you an idea of what the proportions look like, here's a 2.0m long, breadboard end, eight seater table that I regularly make. I use the same basic scantlings for anything in the range 2.0-3.0m long.






Hope that helps.

Incidentally, building on your South African comments earlier, if you ever get the chance you should pop into Surrey Timbers. The guy who runs it is South African and he keeps some amazing African timbers in stock, stuff that otherwise you'd never find in this country.


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## Jacob (16 Feb 2019)

Yes 30" high and 23" clearance. Then you have room for drawers but if not then 24 1/2" fine for highish chairs (above 18") and/or fat thighs.
Just been to the Black Country Museum, Dudley. A massive meeting room table there we reckoned at 3.4 x 1.2 metres (didn't take a tape - always take a tape everywhere you go!)
Very ordinary kitchen table design and construction, top about 35mm, aprons about 100 x 35, legs turned ex 100mm. Underside bodged by the museum but I reckon one cross piece in the middle, probably to DT housings in the apron. Maybe two? (Arthritic knees - I couldn't get down easily to have a look)
So no problem at all, just a normal table with slightly thicker top than a smaller one.
Only had a quick look and some snaps which I'll dig out shortly.


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## screwpainting (16 Feb 2019)

Bliss!
The joy of a thread that gets the best of those that know, passing on such wonderful (to me) knowledge... I love this forum, thank you boys. =D> 

When its gone, its gone, you know...


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## Jacob (16 Feb 2019)

screwpainting":nuy8loq6 said:


> Bliss!
> The joy of a thread that gets the best of those that know, passing on such wonderful (to me) knowledge... I love this forum, thank you boys. =D>
> 
> When its gone, its gone, you know...


 :lol: 
Actually not so much "passing on " more dropping hints of where to find it i.e. in the very ordinary world of traditional joinery.
In this case in the committee room of The Workers Institute . A significant place in the history of British socialism. Keir Hardie probably sat at this table, and many other famous radicals, local and international ( sorry not really trying to annoy "them" :lol: )
The top. Plain pitch-pine wide boards, just edge glued I guess:




Stuck the camera under. The bodged bearers underneath - I now see there were two - originally housed in that shallow mortice next to them? No sign of buttons - perhaps some pocket screws bodged in here and there. It doesn't take much to hold a heavy table top down - more a question of preventing it being lifted off when you try to move it. It doesn't actually need to be attached at all - it'd take six blokes to shift it. Hence the absence of buttons? Maybe just small locating blocks at the four corners and the top loose? Must go and have another look.




Legs and extended end - very convenient for seating arrangements




Another big but smaller table next to it





PS Having thought about it - I reckon the top would not have been fixed at all. It would be impossible to move it accidentally but to move it on purpose would be easier as separates. Maybe a little block at each corner to relocate it in position?


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## custard (17 Feb 2019)

screwpainting":1hp677bo said:


> Bliss!
> The joy of a thread that gets the best of those that know, passing on such wonderful (to me) knowledge... I love this forum, thank you boys. =D>
> 
> When its gone, its gone, you know...



One problem you may face in making a 2.8m hardwood table is the weight. I'm fairly strong, but the table top alone for a table of that size is too much for me to lift once it's fully glued up. If there are two of you in the workshop it's no problem, but for a guy working on his own it's too big.


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## Togalosh (19 Feb 2019)

Oh Bol)(*& !.. my dogs have just deleted a really long reply by jumping on me as I was typing..

I am cream crackered & 1/2 asleep but just got time to say thanks for your replies & 1 quick question.

The table is coming on very well apart from me being 30mm short of timber for the long aprons. There is no one local with dry oak at 2.6m so am I daft/ridiculous to contemplate using 2 x 20mm boards glued & dowelled together ? Would the tenons be too weak?

Thanks
Togs


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## Jacob (20 Feb 2019)

Make the other one 30mm shorter to match? Who's going to notice?


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## custard (20 Feb 2019)

Jacob":1zqzndq6 said:


> Make the other one 30mm shorter to match



+1

That or go and get a longer board.

Some sort of cobbled together work-around would be just awful.


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