# Record 74 auto vice



## nabs (22 Dec 2018)

Having recently moved, I find myself without a workshop and with a long list of jobs to do around the house so it made a nice change to fit in a little bit of tool fiddling this weekend:






A record 74 vice - a bit grotty but in good condition, the only minor issue being that at some point the pin that retains the washer/spring used to hold the handle against the moveable jaw had broken and the washer bent as a result. Once extracted a few whacks with a hammer got it back into shape, and an old nail did as a replacement pin.






Having got it apart a bit of elbow grease to remove 80 years of accumulated oil and grease plus various layers of paint (not sure why it was partly painted green - perhaps to distinguish it from others in a shared workshop?) and it looked like this:







more thrills to come!

*edits to fix photos


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## nabs (22 Dec 2018)

we did cover this type of vice a while ago when discussing the excellent Record Imp (the smaller brother of the 74) 
record-imp-vice-t23939-30.html

this version has the patent date on it so was made some time after the summer of 1929 and the late 1940s. 
I am pleased to report that - as with all Record products of this era - the quality is excellent with very well finished castings and a substantial steel slide and screw. 

There is an even larger version of this design (the model 75) which in its earliest incarnations was made completely of steel, but the 74 (and later versions of the 75) have a cast iron body. 

It is simple to install - 1/2 inch hole through the worktop and secure underneath with the large nut and washer. Here it is installed:





in the next instalment: all those Record 74 features you never knew you needed.

* edit to fix photos


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## AndyT (22 Dec 2018)

Nice stuff Nick but only the first image shows up - have you set them all to Public?


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## nabs (22 Dec 2018)

hmm, I'm not really sure why one works and the others don't - will investigate!


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## nabs (22 Dec 2018)

fixed (I think!)


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## AndyT (22 Dec 2018)

Thanks Nick - nice job on the cleaning up, leaving it old but cared for, a look I like to cultivate myself, as I think do many woodworkers of a certain age...

Looking at your photos made me wonder what the square headed set screw was for. On re-reading your earlier posts I see it was for straightening valves, so I'm hoping that by now you have built up a stock of slightly bent valves needing remedial treatment and that some action shots are coming soon!


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Dec 2018)

nabs":fit492i8 said:


> fixed (I think!)



No, sorry.


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## nabs (22 Dec 2018)

phil.p":tvqaos1q said:


> nabs":tvqaos1q said:
> 
> 
> > fixed (I think!)
> ...


third time lucky - they may all be upside down!


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## nabs (22 Dec 2018)

AndyT":2yv4y446 said:


> Thanks Nick - nice job on the cleaning up, leaving it old but cared for, a look I like to cultivate myself, as I think do many woodworkers of a certain age...
> 
> Looking at your photos made me wonder what the square headed set screw was for. On re-reading your earlier posts I see it was for straightening valves, so I'm hoping that by now you have built up a stock of slightly bent valves needing remedial treatment and that some action shots are coming soon!



actually it is a set screw to hold the anvil in place - as you can see in the patent drawing below the anvil has a stud that is located in a hole on the upper surface of the fixed jaw and the screw pushes on that. In theory the anvil is detachable (I suppose for the manufacturers convenience, rather than ours?) but mine is stuck fast.


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## nabs (22 Dec 2018)

Since Andy mentioned the valve holders, you can see them in this picture below the anvil. They consist of two holes of different sizes and according to the patent are

'_adapted to support a valve stem of an internal combustion engine or for use in straightening bolts or rods_'

I can (sort of) see how they might be used in straightening a rod (assuming it was only bent a the very tip!) - can someone more mechanically minded than me explain why you might want to insert an engine valve in there?


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## nabs (22 Dec 2018)

PS you can just see my Record Imp on the LHS for a size comparison - the imp has 2 1/2'' jaws and the 74 is 4''. not a very good picture I'm afraid!


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## sunnybob (22 Dec 2018)

engines of that age had soft steel valve stems, with hardened seats. if a valve spring or collet broke under load it was common for that valve stem to bend under the unusual pressures.
Hammering the soft valve stem back into the slot with a rawhide mallet on the valve face would allow the valve to be reused. I've seen some hammered straight on blocks of wood, just as you would straighten a bent nail for reuse.
Not exactly formula one , but back then any engine could be fixed in any local garage, instead of waiting for a new part to be shipped from japan or even china.


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## nabs (26 Dec 2018)

thanks to Bob we now know what the two holes are for on the fixed jaw. Other features include

*pipe bender*: this consists of the curved section at the base of the movable jaw and the vertically grooved lug opposite on the fixed jaw (see the picture above ). The pipe is gripped between the grooves of the two lugs and can be bent around the curved part.
The jaws are offset so as to not interfere with the pipe. In the earliest adverts the pipe bender is described as 'adjustable', but I have no idea what this refers to.

Incidentally, I actually used the pipe bender on my Record Imp to bend a metal brake tube in the summer - technically it would have been possible to do the same with my fingers, but I am sure I did a far better job thanks to our friends at Record!

*hardened steel anvil *(removable!) and beak (not removable!)

*swivel base* - the underside of the fixed jaw has two tabs which sit in the 9 pairs of notches in the triangular base - simply loosen the monkey nut lift the vice and twist to a new location.

the vices were supplied with two added extras:

*fibre jaw grips *for gripping delicate items (good luck finding a vice where these have not already been lost!)

*Cylinder head holding plug* (automotive related!): a hexagonal rod with two screw threads designed to insert into the threaded cylinder head holes that received the spark plugs (one for US plug thread and one UK). These have of course all been lost also.

Finally there was a *pipe gripper *- this consisted of a removable v-shaped metal part with a serrated edge that fits in a groove in the moveable jaw, below the grip. The casting on the other side is v shaped and has a slot which receives the other metal part allowing the vice to fully closed even when the removable part is installed. According to the patent the removable part was originally designed to be held in place by a set screw, but this is absent from the actual implementation. This no doubt explains why they were all immediately lost. It would be a simple job to make a replacement should you wish to loose your own.











that's it - the vice weights 26lbs , has 4 inch jaws and opens to about 4 1/2 inches. In the 1935 Record catalogue it is slightly more expensive than the bog standard cast iron 4'' no 3 mechanics vice (29/- vs 25/-) but cheaper than the equivalent swivel base model, the 3S, which cost 33s )

It is pitched as an inexpensive vice for the amateur mechanic or the woodworker who has an occasional need to do a bit of metalwork (where the fact it can be popped into a dog hole on your bench and removed after use is an advantage) and, if the Record marketing maestros are to be believed, was a popular choice in factories and mechanic's workshops up and down the country.

Mine was £62 delivered and, cosmetics aside, is in perfect working order. Pretty good value since it should easily be good for another 80 years at least.


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## nabs (26 Dec 2018)

some action shots of the vice (thanks to http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com)






note extra use of the valve holes: pop one end of your valve into a brace, the other into the valve hole and - hey presto! - a valve polishing device.


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## sunnybob (26 Dec 2018)

That pic of valve polishing is one of those "how not to" lessons.
Rotating it in the hole would score it like crazy, let alone the fact the face could well be at a different angle to the seat in the head.
You always lap a valve to its seat, or youre just wasting everybodies time. :roll: :roll: 
Matter of interest though, how deep are the valve stem holes? They should be several inches, if not all the way through.


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## Bod (26 Dec 2018)

There is a "time - line" for these vices, when I got mine, I looked into them.
Early ones have a threaded hole on the right hand side of the moving head to take a the square headed bolt that clamps in the front pipe grip.
Mid ones, this hole is missing, and possibly the pipe grip is not supplied.
Late ones, had different wording cast on both sides.
Last ones, had square ended main screw, and a hex head bolt held the anvil in place.
I don't know the dates of any of the changes.
Record catalogue No14 (1935) Lists the 74 at 29/6 each nett. £1.9.6 (£1.47 in new money.) and lists a pipe grip as an available spare.
Catalogue E.2 (October 1970) lists the 74, with 3 coach screws for base plate fixing. No mention of pipe gripping! 
In June 1970 the price is now 180/- or £9 (in new money).
The cylinder head holder is always missing, I've yet to even see one!
These are climbing in value, last year (2017) £30 would buy a usable example, now £60-70+
Just be certain that all the main parts are present, wing nut, washer, serrated base(which has 3 holes to fix to bench. This is the most often part missing, and cannot be got new.) The hard jaws might still be available, if they were common to any other Record vice.
All in a very useful bit of kit, has some good ideas, slightly off-set jaws, allowing things to be gripped passed the main screw, proper small anvil. Then a bad idea, all the crud can fall directly onto the main screw.
All in all I'm keeping mine, too useful.

Bod


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## nabs (26 Dec 2018)

Thanks Bod,
that is good info. The earliest one I could find says 'patent pending' on it, so presumably July 1928 and May 1929 (the dates when the patent was applied for and when it was granted), and you are quite right it has got a set screw to hold the front pipe grip which I hadn't noticed before.







Ps sunnybob the cylinder head holes are about 2'' deep (almost go through to the other side)

edit - sorry that was the wrong pic above, the earlier one does not appear to have a set screw - most odd...






the triangular base was missing from this one and, as you say , they often seem to go missing. not sure why...


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## nabs (27 Dec 2018)

here are some pics of the other variants mentioned by Bod. The castings of the two oldest models - shown above - say 'patents pending' (July 1928 and May 1929) and 'patents 310723/28' (1929 - 49?). The use of a set screw to retain the pipe holder seems to have been a short lived experiment in the 30s or 40s.

At some point after the patent expired the casting was changed to say simply 'made in england', and the patent number is also removed from the base.










like Bod, I can't see any way to date the other revisions but I think these are in chronological order:

the 'auto vice' branding was removed, as were the two holes that helped hapless mechanics polish their engine valves incorrectly:








in exchanged for the much missed valve cleaning holes Record supplied a more substantial anvil and a hexagonal headed set screw to hold it in place





and in what appears to be the final version, a square boss is used for the screw. This parallels changes introduced in other parts of the Record vice range introduced in 1963, although the pictures of the Imp and 74 in the 63 catalogue still show a round boss so perhaps this change lagged behind a bit for the auto vices.

The other change made for the 74 and the Imp was the use of a much finer thread on the screw. I'm not sure if this is an improvement or not?





PS the above pic shows a (home made?) pipe holder.


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## nabs (7 Apr 2019)

owners of these vices who have lost the removable pipe holder attachment (which is to say, all of em!) can breath a sigh of relief since an enterprising ebayer has started making replacements:

ebay

once I cleaned the debris from the slot in the body of the vice it was a perfect fit. Ingeniously a magnet is included that helps locate it in the slot and also means you can attach it to the vice when not in use, thus never losing it again. Happy pipe holding everyone!


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## Bod (8 Apr 2019)

Ordered!
Will report back when arrived.

Bod


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## Bod (10 Apr 2019)

Arrived today.





Looks good.




Fits well, after clearing out 60+ years of mess.




Main jaws fully close.




Largest diameter is governed by the main screw.




Magnet works! How much this will attract iron filings in use remains to be seen.
I tried to make a mark on the jaws with a centre punch, no mark was made, the punch has now been resharpened!

Bod


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## Bm101 (28 Dec 2019)

I just bought one of these for myself for christmas from _*everyone*_. Far better to get one present you actually want.  
Pc is still kaput so not many pics as of yet but it's a good un.

All parts included. Even the mythical pipe bender. (hammer) 
It's a _newer_ one. Square screw on the the anvil, no curvy logo or serial number.
Equivalent newer model looks too be a good deal more than I paid (by a decent margin ...£70) and this one looks pretty mint and made to proper QC standards.
Well happy.

Just the level of restore to decide on.
:-"


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## TFrench (28 Dec 2019)

Last couple of vice restos I've done have been full paint ups - vices always seem to attract the phantom hammerite splasher... If theres original paint, I'd degrease and coat with boiled linseed oil.


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## ED65 (30 Dec 2019)

Congrats of the vice Chris, I got an old no. 6 from the same source for Christmas  



Bm101":28y18mpx said:


> Just the level of restore to decide on.


For some things, and vices tend to be one of them, I let the amount of remaining paint (and how it has come off) decide how far to go. 

I don't like the look of small islands and specks of paint just clinging on here and there so if there's that much gone I take it the rest of the way to bare metal, then treat the iron/steel or repaint. If 60% + of the paint is still there, and it's not flaky and scabrous if you know what I mean, I might leave it as the worn look has a charm of its own.


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## dannyr (30 Dec 2019)

New thread on scabrous vices ED?

I've had my 74 for many years - fettled and painted (just one thin coat) light green years back - serves me well. There is some play, but it takes a bashing quite well.
Do any swivelling vices rotate easily and fix firmly - oh yes, my Parkinson's ball vice does - otherwise I've not known any. 
I also had a 75 - gave to my brother-in-law who used it for work on his 1960s Bentley. Saw one on the auction site for over £400 the other week (but did it sell?).
Each of these cost me less than £10 in the late '80s (car boot).


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## RyanM97 (30 Mar 2020)

nabs":fs2k6ibj said:


> *fibre jaw grips *for gripping delicate items (good luck finding a vice where these have not already been lost.



I inherited this vice from my wife’s late great granddad and still have the original fiber jaw grips. Which is surprising considering it came from a farmer. The vice is in great condition just a bit of surface rust but I’m currently in the process of cleaning it all up and filling with grease. Looks like it has plenty of years life left in it. Excellent price of kit!


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## dannyr (30 Mar 2020)

yes - I refurbed mine about 15 years ago and, despite having other vices (no, seriously) this is my 'go to' for many jobs


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## Bm101 (31 Mar 2020)

Never did touch mine.


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## merlin (31 Mar 2020)

Having a clear out under the bench and found the “Record autovice cylinder head holding plug” from my Dads old vice.
It doesn’t look like it’s been used - unlike the vice!
I grew up using this vice and still use it.


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## nabs (31 Mar 2020)

that is the first one I've seen - do you suppose the threads are supposed to go into the spark plug 'ole?


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## dannyr (31 Mar 2020)

I believe they are, --- better not be a large cast-iron straight six or bigger.
I have a 74, and gave a 75 to my bro in law when he had a large old Bentley - don't think he held the engine by a spark plug screw, but he uses it a lot.
However, Nick, if you happen to know anyone (such as nabs?) who specialises in small engines 50-250 cc, it's a must-have.


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## Bod (31 Mar 2020)

!st I've seen also!
Yes, the threads go into the spark plug holes, one end for British engines, the other for American heads.
Now I know what to look for on my rust hunting expeditions.

Bod


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## RECORDANDWODEN (1 Apr 2020)

Hiya I've just purchased one from ebay, does anyone have the dimensions of the pipe jaw? I've seen the ebay one but I've just spent all my money on the vice, would enjoy trying to make one myself, I'd love to know the thickness of material, length, width, when the serrated Jaws start, their incriments and how far down they go


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## nabs (1 Apr 2020)

dannyr":10i79ea4 said:


> I believe they are, --- better not be a large cast-iron straight six or bigger.


yes I think it might be a bit perilous to use it to dangle the cylinder head from a big engine! As it happens I have recently been working on a small Honda 150cc engine which might just be small enough to get away with:











... I suppose the gadget might be handy when removing the valves, but to be honest I can't think of anything that would have been much easier using the vice rather than just having the cylinder head sat directly on the bench. I am but a novice mechanic though, so I may be missing something obvious 

Incidentally, it was a combination of my acquisition of my Record 74 vice - and the fact that I was so ignorant of mechanics that I had to ask sunnybob what a 'valve holder' might be for - that decided me to learn about how engines worked. 

One of the many examples of the serendipitous effects of this forum!
nabs


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## AndyT (1 Apr 2020)

Such a near miss!
You might be the only person left who could use a cylinder head holding plug. Trouble is, you're going to need the even rarer variant, with one end for American engines, one end for British, and a third end for Japanese!

If I spot one, I'll send it to you, promise


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## dannyr (1 Apr 2020)

Maybe getting off-topic here:

I was educated as a 'bio' scientist, but after this and that finished up in engineering/metallurgy - so not a 'true' engineer, but had a colleague who certainly was - he gave his two sons motorbikes as they reached 17, but tore them down first so they had to rebuild them before they could use them. One's now a senior Toyota development engineer.
Your bench reminds me.


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## Bm101 (1 Apr 2020)

RECORDANDWODEN":22k90m1s said:


> Hiya I've just purchased one from ebay, does anyone have the dimensions of the pipe jaw? I've seen the ebay one but I've just spent all my money on the vice, would enjoy trying to make one myself, I'd love to know the thickness of material, length, width, when the serrated Jaws start, their incriments and how far down they go


 
Here ya go. Depth of jaw from top to bottom of hole is 11mm and the teeth get incrementally smaller as they go for smaller pipe.


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## RECORDANDWODEN (1 Apr 2020)

Thank you so much aha


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## Bm101 (1 Apr 2020)

Pleasure. The only cost asked in return is progress photos and shared knowledge. :wink:


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## merlin (2 Apr 2020)

Here it is doing its thing ...


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## dannyr (2 Apr 2020)

So it can hold a cylinder head - firmly enough to actually work on it?


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## merlin (2 Apr 2020)

It holds this well but its an old flat head so not really much better than putting it on the bench.

Merlin


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## Vono (28 Sep 2020)

Just found this thread on the 74 Auto Vice.

Seems rude not to add mine to it.

Mine actually came with the original pipe jaw stuck in it (since freed it so it can be removed).

My other half bought it me for my 50th recently


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## Bod (28 Sep 2020)

Vono, looking at your photo, do the threads go all the way to the front jaw, or do they stop some way before?
A photo of an original pipe jaw would be helpful.

Bod.


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## Vono (28 Sep 2020)

Bod said:


> Vono, looking at your photo, do the threads go all the way to the front jaw, or do they stop some way before?
> A photo of an original pipe jaw would be helpful.
> 
> Bod.


Hello Bod
Leave it with me I'll take some pics for you.
Cheers


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## Vono (29 Sep 2020)

Hello Bod

I hope these are ok? The jaw has a chip on the top & does seem to droop a touch when in it's slot in the vice.
Cheers


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## Bod (29 Sep 2020)

Thanks Vono, the main threaded shalf is the same as mine, except mine is a lot greasier!
The original pipe jaw appears slightly shorter than my after-market one, the hole is in a better place for removal, being against the jaw for possible leverage, mine is slightly further away.

Bod.


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## Vono (29 Sep 2020)

No problem Bod, happy to help.


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