# Finish for spalted beech



## rkchapman (23 Mar 2009)

I finally got around to turning some beech that's been sitting around in my shed for the last couple of years, spalting nicely (there are some advantages to having a damp workshop...)







I'm quite pleased with the way it turned out, but I'm wondering what the would be the best finish to use to keep it looking nice...

Anyone have any experiences (good or bad) with finishes for this sort of piece?


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## mikec (23 Mar 2009)

Hi Richard,

My preferred treatment is to use cellulose sanding sealer, several aplications cut back between layers followed by a wax finish. I find oil darkens the wood too much for my taste.

If it is a display piece I use carnauba wax though I am experimenting with carnauba and microcrystalline wax blends.

Hope this helps,

Mike C


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## Bodrighy (23 Mar 2009)

I use diluted sealer (50%) which is sanded off at thend and then just use wax. George (Cornucopia) swears by lemon oil and if his work is anything to go by it's good stuff for a silky or matt finish. Don't bother with friction polish (IMHO) 

Pete


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## CHJ (23 Mar 2009)

If this is your first move into the spalted world *Richard*, I would go along with using cellulose sanding sealer (diluted to penetrate well and harden the surface) and finish off with a soft wax blend (Chestnuts Woodwax22 for instance) Hard wax friction sticks could mark the soft spalted surface and using melamine or similar finish to obtain a gloss surface is a task that needs some experimentation to get the process right.


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## cornucopia (23 Mar 2009)

I really dislike a wax finish on light coloured woods, i prefer to use lemon oil as a base then a few coats of organoil or chestnust finishing oil- another alternative is spray on acrylic matt/satin finish- if done correctly you cannot tell there is a finish on and the wood stays very light in colour.


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## wizer (23 Mar 2009)

George with the spray lacquer, would you put anything under it? Like LO or CSS?


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## cornucopia (23 Mar 2009)

wizer":2hfzckyz said:


> George with the spray lacquer, would you put anything under it? Like LO or CSS?



no just spray- the awkward bit with the spray finish is the correct spraying enviroment and getting just the right amount on the surface.


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## wizer (23 Mar 2009)

Cheers I might try it on those pieces you gave me. If I can bare to look at what I've done to them


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## PowerTool (23 Mar 2009)

I like wax,but have also had good results with aerosol lacquers.

Andrew


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## rkchapman (23 Mar 2009)

Thanks everyone - I think I'll get a selection of the above-mentioned finishes and try a few of them. I have about 6 cu ft of beech so plenty of scope for trial and error. I'll let you know how I get on.

The spalted wood is not at all soft - like the rest of the beech it's very hard.


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## pete honeyman (23 Mar 2009)

I would agree with sanding sealer, at least two coats 50/50 cut back with 600 or 800 grade between each, then lightly burnished with a handful of shavings - keeps the wood nice and white and emphasises the contrast with the spalting, gives a lovely satin sheen. Example below

I also agree with Corny - I don't like wax or polish on beech.






PeteII


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## Richard Findley (23 Mar 2009)

Nice finish there Pete, looking good!!

I'm an oil fan myself. I find the slight darkening of the wood usually helps to pop the grain and bring out the figure. If you just accept it's gonna get darker then you won't be disappointed:






(sorry, not the best picture in the world  )

Cheers,

Richard


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## pete honeyman (23 Mar 2009)

'tis all a matter of taste in the end... I do use Danish oil on beech, but only if I want it to darken


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## big soft moose (23 Mar 2009)

I just use liberon paste wax (as i do on 99% of my work) - ive never got on with sanding sealer it always seperates in the bottle then refuses to remix.


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## Lightweeder (24 Mar 2009)

big soft moose":1x01woqc said:


> I just use liberon paste wax (as i do on 99% of my work) - ive never got on with sanding sealer it always seperates in the bottle then refuses to remix.



I have the same problem with sanding sealer. I also find it darkens the wood ever so slightly. Am interested in the lemon oil, though have never come across it.


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## Terry Smart (24 Mar 2009)

Hi Guys

With reference to the comments about sanding sealers, could you clarify for me (by pm if you don't want to name names in open forum) which type of sanding sealer, who makes it and if you're diluting it or doing anything else to it?
Whilst the solids part of the sealer will invariably sink to the bottom of the container, it should always mix back in with a minimum amount of effort.


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## wizer (24 Mar 2009)

Terry are you saying that (your) SS should not be diluted?


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## Terry Smart (24 Mar 2009)

Uh-oh, that's a can of worms I didn't mean to open.

Fundamentally yes, I'm saying our Sanding Sealers should not be diluted. They are all supplied ready for use and will do the job straight out of the can.
(Acrylics should only be diluted to a maximum of 5% and there is really no ponit in diluting the Shellac one, but I'm assuming we're mainly talking about the Cellulose version here.)

It's a commonly held belief that the sealer works better when diluted 50/50 although no-one has ever been able to explain why this should be.
The usual reason is that it allows the sealer to soak in deeper, which of course it does. Sadly, this isn't what you want it to do. The sealer should dry _on the surface_ to seal the wood. Otherwise it's like thinning an emulsiion paint down before use; all of the paint sinks into the substrate and you can't see it, so why bother using it?
Another comment is that thinning it helps it adhere to the wood better; the sealer is designed to stick to the wood, it doesn't need any extra help thank you.

Now that's not to say that there aren't occasions when it is preferable to thin the sealer. Working on spalted timber is one of them, thinning 50/50 allows the sealer to soak in and give the timber extra stability. It's not really sealing it for finishing though.
Working on larger areas can be problematical too with neat sealer, as it can be awkward to get an even coating before it dries; a thinner material will flow out better. In these circumstances we'd suggest thinning 10-20% for best results. This will make it easier to apply but will still allow the sealer to do its job.

You should only need one coat of sealer except in exceptional circumstances. Applying three coats of thinned sealer is no better than applying one (thin) coat.

I personally see no need to habitually thin the sealer 50/50 and this practice will lead to the solids dropping out of solution and generally they will not mix back in.


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## loz (24 Mar 2009)

I dont dilute mine, but im a noob and dont know any better.


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## wizer (24 Mar 2009)

I've heard both sides of the story. I'm lazy so I can't see me diluting it. To be honest I'm not sure I'm all that keen on it as a finish. I'm going to try LO and Lacquer soon.

Thanks for the explanation Terry. I don't believe it's a can of worms at all. Assuming you're commenting on your own product then I just take it as advice from the manufacturer. It all sounds like common sense to me. As someone who's just getting into turning, I haven't heard this 'discussion' (not argument  ) before.


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## Terry Smart (24 Mar 2009)

wizer":3bcgy6n9 said:


> I'm going to try LO and Lacquer soon.



...but not on the same piece hopefully. Unlike a sealer, Lemon Oil is a finish in its own right and the only thing that should be appliled on top of it is either more Lemon Oil or Wax (in fact technically speaking wax shouldn't work on top of it but no-one's told the wax). 
Depending on which lacquer you're using they can be used straight onto bare wood but using a sealer first will make life easier.


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## wizer (24 Mar 2009)

Cheers Terry, I was advised not to mix them earlier in this thread.

I'll probably try your aerosol lacquers when I next get some spare cash.


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## PowerTool (24 Mar 2009)

Hi Terry - I now use your finishes exclusively (always feel that it avoids incompatibility,sticking to one make),and use cellulose sanding sealer undiluted from the tin,and now often use the aerosol form as well,particularly for larger pieces - normally do one coat of aerosol sealer,then two or three coats of aerosol lacquer.

Andrew


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## Paul.J (24 Mar 2009)

*Terry.*
I have two tubs of your sealer one i have diluted just to use on those awkward bits of grain,and woods that don't give a good finish.
I use this this way so as not to waste the neat sealer,which i do use when the piece as got a good finish.
Plus i find the diluted sealer spreads better when used on a larger piece,especially on warmer days.


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## big soft moose (24 Mar 2009)

the sealer i had problems with seperating and not remixing easily was liberon - I did wonder if this might be to do with it being in a bottle and thus exposed to the light (whereas yours is i belive in a can) - I then got into the habit of not using it , as as the paste wax alone is working for me i dont see a lot of reason to change.


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## Lofty (24 Mar 2009)

Terry,
For this type of application, what is the difference between cellulose and shellac sanding sealer. I have been using shellac sealer mainly because the solvent being methylated spirits it's cheaper to use.

Mike


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## Terry Smart (24 Mar 2009)

The Liberon sealer is spirit based and these are more prone to separating as you describe (ours does the same although we changed the formulation some years ago to make it easier it mix back in).

Vigorous shaking should do the job, it might be necessary to break up the sediment on the bottom of the jar to help the process though. Some people put ball bearings or small pebbles in the bottle to do this, not sure if this is a good idea with a glass bottle though!


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## Terry Smart (24 Mar 2009)

Sorry Mike, missed your comment whilst typing.

There's not a huge amount in it price wise, the cost of shellac sees to that. (Not all spirit based sealers have shellac in them though...)

I'm not entirely sure about the 'in this application' part of your question, but I'm assuming we're talking about improving the stability of the timber for turning and cellulose will dry to a much harder finish than a shellac sealer due to its nature; I wouild guess (I'm not a turner) that this will give a better cut and be easier to work with.
It's also a lot quicker drying of course which is a benefit in itself.

Let me know if I've missed your point!


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## Lofty (24 Mar 2009)

Terry, yes thanks that answers the question, it sounds as though I should try cellulose sealer as it dries harder and that may well be an advantage.

Mike


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## Lightweeder (25 Mar 2009)

Trouble with being a newbie is that you don't know what you're doing most of the time. I borrowed some mixed sanding sealer from my husband - who's used it in making model 'planes for years. It didn't dry and wouldn't dry and I was scared of it for a long time. I then bought some Briwax shellac ss, purely because I don't have that many places where I can find things, and tend to get them when I can. It's fine, but I was wary of thinning, because of the stuff my husband gave me.


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## mrs. sliver (25 Mar 2009)

Husbands! :roll: (sorry sliver!) 
We don't have many places local to buy much equipment dedicated to turning. but if you start with simple sanding seal you can sometimes get it in 'normal' hardware shops (or in t' interweb) then just try other finishes as you go. Most of mine right now is sanding seal and 22 wax (Chestnut supplies)

But, going back a bit, I like some of the light woods and the spalted, like this piece, so to keep it pale just a light sanding seal and burnish with shavings? :?:


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## Lightweeder (25 Mar 2009)

mrs. sliver":20cqgkby said:


> Husbands! :roll: (sorry sliver!)
> We don't have many places local to buy much equipment dedicated to turning. but if you start with simple sanding seal you can sometimes get it in 'normal' hardware shops (or in t' interweb) then just try other finishes as you go. Most of mine right now is sanding seal and 22 wax (Chestnut supplies)
> 
> But, going back a bit, I like some of the light woods and the spalted, like this piece, so to keep it pale just a light sanding seal and burnish with shavings? :?:



Thanks Mrs S. I'm going to try the Chestnut stuff, which seems to be widely appreciated, but I do find sanding sealing darkens the wood a bit. What about just wax on its own? Sorry to be dense, but how does the burnishing with shavings thing work? Just bung it on presumably?


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## CHJ (25 Mar 2009)

Lightweeder":fpkftub9 said:


> [......, but I do find sanding sealing darkens the wood a bit. What about just wax on its own? Sorry to be dense, but how does the burnishing with shavings thing .....



Have you been using Shellac based sealer? I do not find any sygnificant darkening problems on light woods with cellulose based sealer,

Using wax without sealer will almost certainly darken the wood, if it soaks into the wood to any depth it may be slow to dry and show uneven dark patches.


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## pete honeyman (25 Mar 2009)

Just grab a handful of shavings from the piece and hold it against the wood while its spinning - try not to pick up any muck with it or it'll scratch.


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## Wanlock Dod (25 Mar 2009)

Terry,

I've been using sanding sealer for a while, I forget the brand (*) but it was the only one on sale in either BBQ or Gnomebase when I picked it up. Following the recommendation of Tony Wilson, I put the sealer in a glass jar with a brush stuck in the lid and found this to be a far more convenient way to use it. I regularly needed to add a bit of thinners (that was Chestnut) because the jar it was in would allow a bit of evaporation. Also I felt that it was easier to use once thinned. I tend to use a couple of coats, but thats simply because thats the way I do it. I don't recall ever having to give it more than a wee bit of a shake to get it dispersed again.

It was all going so well until the other weekend when the jar took a tumble. I picked up some Chestnut sanding sealer and a tin of thinners and plan to do just the same as before just as soon as I've sorted out another brush stuck in a jar. Having read what you have to say, however, I'll give it a try undiluted - I can't promise not to use the thinners though.

Mostly I tend to use a coat of tung oil instead these days, even though it takes about 700 times as long to dry. I did consider a pot of water-based sanding sealer recently, up until I noticed that it shouldn't be used below 15 degrees C. I reckon I'd only be able to use it 4 months of the year in my workshop, and even that seems optomistic. If I used it at cooler temperatures (say 8 to 10 degrees C) woudl it not work, or just take an intollerably long time to dry? I tend to leave tung oil for a week to dry properly.

Cheers,

Dod

(*) I think it was Briwax, as the wax I have is from that company and I bought both at the same time. I don't think that the wax has the same durability as Woodwax 22, but I get through so little of it that it is unlikely to need replacing for some time yet.


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## Terry Smart (26 Mar 2009)

Hi Again

Firstly, thanks to all those using our products! Not much I can say about that apart from keep it up and I hope we always deserve your support.

I didn't want to get into this discussion because I do believe it 'if ain't broke don't fix it' and although I know that thinning the sealer 50/50 isn't technically correct I also know a lot of people do it and get good results. I just happen to think there's a better way of doing it.

Moving on...



Wanlock Dod":3b6tfgnk said:


> If I used it at cooler temperatures (say 8 to 10 degrees C) woudl it not work, or just take an intollerably long time to dry?



It's a cross between the two; the sealer won't dry properly and will take longer to get to any workable state. Also it won't be as tough as it should be. Acrylics are great in the right situation, from what you say you might be best to stick with the cellulose if you're getting on with it ok.


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## mark sanger (26 Mar 2009)

Well I have read this thread in detail and it is full of great advice and it comes down to personal preference based on experience.

For me ( I only made aesthetic pieces that have only the use of being looked at and touched) so I use cellulose sanding sealer diluted down 50% with cellulose thinners.

I give my spalted beech 2-3 good coats, a real soaking. Cutting each one back with 600 grit.

Then I buff this with a cloth with the lathe set at the fastest safe speed. 

the I use Renaissance wax. It is a micro-crystalline wax which was developed by or for the British museum to use on their artefact's

It is not cheap but you apply 3 x very thin coats and buff by hand. 

Bee's wax has a boiling point lower than body temperature. So hence the reason you get finger prints on work if you use a was that has a bee's wax base to it. 

With renaissance you don't get this problem so people can pick it up and put it down and you don't get the issues.

It is easy to apply and the manufacturers reckon if you apply 6 x coats then it water proofs the piece. I have not tried this.

No I am not a re-seller of it but have used it for some time now and would never go back to anything else.

If any one wants more details of it email me. You can get it readily in good quality wood working outlets.


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## Lightweeder (27 Mar 2009)

CHJ":24pqfyqr said:


> Lightweeder":24pqfyqr said:
> 
> 
> > [......, but I do find sanding sealing darkens the wood a bit. What about just wax on its own? Sorry to be dense, but how does the burnishing with shavings thing .....
> ...


 
CHJ - yes, the one I use is shellac-based, tho' I'm in the market for the quicker-drying cellulose one, as soon as I see it.


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## Lightweeder (27 Mar 2009)

By the bye, I read in one of Richard Raffan's books that he keeps little supplies of sawdust in various woods, in order to repair using CA. How clever is that? There may be some numbskulls like me out there who hadn't thought of that


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## CHJ (27 Mar 2009)

Guess what, even when you have some 20+ different shades of fine sanding dust the one you want to match isn't amongst them, :roll: thank goodness for contrast inclusions in most pieces. :lol:


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