# Freehand Sharpening - which technique?



## bugbear (12 May 2016)

Since the techniques of freehand sharpening vary, I wondered which the various freehanders amongst us chose.

If I've missed any techniques (and editing polls is allows) mention them, and I'll add them.


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## Corneel (12 May 2016)

Hollow grind, but I polish at a slightly higher angle.


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## pedder (12 May 2016)

When I sharpen freehand (I don't do this all the time) I try to get a flat bevel, because the is theoreticaly the fastest, but I don't care so much tu "under"round it, because that doesn't hurt.


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## Racers (12 May 2016)

I do a mixture of hollow ground and double bevel, and sometimes use a jig!

I have ticked double bevel as it my most used one.

Pete


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## Droogs (12 May 2016)

for me with a slight convex bevel, Though sub-consciously I think I'm trying for a micro bevel


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## MIGNAL (12 May 2016)

The poll needs another option, as I use the same method as corneel - hollow ground, sharpened at a slightly higher angle.


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## bugbear (12 May 2016)

MIGNAL":1j6f0lyl said:


> The poll needs another option, as I use the same method as corneel - hollow ground, sharpened at a slightly higher angle.



Added for you - vote away. I'd rather we didn't dive down a rabbit hole of micro-variations though.

EDIT; It now appears that adding an option has reset all the counts, so I won't be doing that again.

If people want their vote to count, could they (sorry :-( ) re-vote?

BugBear


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## Sheffield Tony (12 May 2016)

Ah yes. The forum has been a bit quiet of late hasn't it :wink:


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## lurker (12 May 2016)

Sheffield Tony":2q54p9lp said:


> Ah yes. The forum has been a bit quiet of late hasn't it :wink:



On the subject of sharpening you mean?
You would think woodworkers would want to discuss this subject, but no one seems to have an opinion on the right way of doing this.

Personally I always hand sharpen with the stone strapped to the handlebars of my bike whilst riding down the middle of A6 dual carriageway near my home.
Am looking for like minded individuals to join me.


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## AJB Temple (12 May 2016)

I use a Japanese stye flat primary bevel with a secondary bevel and final strop on knives, chisels and anything that I want really sharp. That does not really appear in your vote options. For turning gouges and chisels I just use a flat bevel on a Sorby pro grinder with various belts and don't mess about with hand sharpening. I tend to do this with plane irons too, though I may give them a secondary bevel and strop if I am feeling keen.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2016)

You appear to have forgotten the N0legs method.


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## MIGNAL (12 May 2016)

Actually I could quite easily select two, maybe even three options. Perhaps I'm awkward. In the end I selected the option I use for the majority of my sharpening. It's not the only one I use and I reserve the right to change my technique sometime in the future! Doubt I'll be the only one.


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## AndyT (12 May 2016)

Sorry BB, I want to redesign your poll. I use more than one of those options so need check boxes not radio buttons. 

A bench plane iron is not the same as a moulding plane iron or a mortice chisel!

(I see Mignal agrees with me. )


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## BearTricks (12 May 2016)

Flat bevel with one of Axminster's just about serviceable sharpening guides, on a budget(ish) ice bear waterstone. Honed with some autosol on mdf or a bit of leather if I can figure out what I did with it. MDF seems to work better if I'm completely honest.

Works fine. I'm getting some serious full length shavings on some difficult sapele. I'm after a pro-edge for turning tools so I'll probably switch to that for everything soon. There's something nice about a waterstone though, despite it's drawbacks.


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## bugbear (12 May 2016)

AndyT":34uemhv2 said:


> Sorry BB, I want to redesign your poll. I use more than one of those options so need check boxes not radio buttons.
> 
> A bench plane iron is not the same as a moulding plane iron or a mortice chisel!
> 
> (I see Mignal agrees with me. )



Editing the poll resets deletes all the existing votes, so I won't be doing that again.

I did have the sharpening of bench planes and chisels in mind though, since that's by far the commonest sharpening task for most people.

BugBear


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## Jacob (12 May 2016)

Other.
I produce a slightly convex bevel but it's not "deliberate" in the sense of serving any purpose. It's "accidental" in that if you take a relaxed approach to freehand sharpening, without trying pointlessly to keep a bevel flat, you will end up convex, but get it done much faster. Rather like pedder (post above) though he is wrong about flat being theoretically faster (check "volume of a prism")

NB there's nothing particularly japanese about flat bevels. Some of them do it - they do like to ritualise many ordinary things, but many don't, especially if they just want to get on with the job..


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## lurker (12 May 2016)

Jacob":168prk2n said:


> Other.
> 
> NB there's nothing particularly japanese about flat bevels. Some of them do it - they do like to ritualise many ordinary things, but many don't, especially if they just want to get on with the job..



It must be at least a week since you last wound BB up by saying that :roll:


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## D_W (12 May 2016)

Hollow grind and bevel at a slightly higher angle, as corneel states.


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## MIGNAL (12 May 2016)

Poor sideways blade. No one has voted for it. I occasionally use it though!


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## essexalan (12 May 2016)

Flat single bevel on Japanese chisels, flat primary plus honed secondary on old steel chisels and plane irons. Waterstones only and flat really means "flattish".


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## AndyT (12 May 2016)

MIGNAL":yv9hneo0 said:


> Poor sideways blade. No one has voted for it. I occasionally use it though!



So do I! 

Join my campaign for proportional representation for woodworkers! :lol:


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## n0legs (12 May 2016)

phil.p":3sf7odfx said:


> You appear to have forgotten the N0legs method.



It's the only one you'll ever need :lol:


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## pedder (12 May 2016)

Jacob":vlxsh4q9 said:


> Rather like pedder (post above) though he is wrong about flat being theoretically faster (check "volume of a prism")



The idea, that is "wrong":

Given an edge is sharp after running 100cm on a stone. (Number are just examples!)
Wen I keep the bevel flat on the 21cm stone I reach 100cm after 5 strokes. 
If I round under I lift of the edge. If I just lift the edge on last 2 cm, I have to do half a stroke more to reach 100cm.
If I round under on the last 10 cm, I need the double number of strokes.

Cheers
Pedder


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## Cheshirechappie (12 May 2016)

Grind the primary, then up a few degrees on the honing stone and rub to raise a wire edge. If I subsequently polish on a finer stone, then same again but up a bit more, and draw back rather than fore-and-back. Then back off. Usually several hones before a regrind. How many? Depends on how work is flowing, how keen I am to set a grinder up, how long it takes to hone a wire edge, how steep the secondary bevel has managed to make itself, the phase of the moon, whatever.

Whether the ground bevel is flat, hollow or convex I don't really care provided the waste metal is removed, but it normally ends up a bit hollow because the grindstone is round. On something with a long bevel, such as a mortice chisel, I make a bit more effort to take off the rise at the heel of the bevel, to end up with something nearer to flat. I don't really obsess about though, just aim for a sharp enough edge with enough supporting metal (and working clearance if appropriate) behind it for the type of work in hand.


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 May 2016)

I'm just waiting for the real agenda to surface....cant be long now


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2016)

Yes, we know what all roads lead to ...


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## Jacob (12 May 2016)

pedder":usintvuh said:


> Jacob":usintvuh said:
> 
> 
> > Rather like pedder (post above) though he is wrong about flat being theoretically faster (check "volume of a prism")
> ...


Er, hmm, not sure what you mean?
By "rounding under" I mean dipping the handle just after you've started the stroke so that almost the whole action is on the bevel behind the edge. The advantage of this is that you can put a lot of force and speed into it. It's only the start of the stroke, first 10mm or so (for a "rounded micro bevel" so to speak :roll: ), that you need to hit 30º as carefully as you can.


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## Jacob (12 May 2016)

phil.p":3o00ajot said:


> Yes, we know what all roads lead to ...


Yes I'm wondering what the little tinker has up his sleeve, if anything.


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## Biliphuster (13 May 2016)

Slightly rounded bevel, I rarely use anything other than my finest stone for this.

Occasionally I will reset a chisel by sharpening a low bevel on a coarse stone if I feel it is getting too rounded.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (13 May 2016)

I hollow grind, as per choice #1. Then I sideways sharpen, as per choice #6.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (13 May 2016)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I hollow grind, as per choice #1. Then I sideways sharpen, as per choice #6.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



If I permuted the grind/hone possibilities the poll would be HUGE!!

BugBear


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## bugbear (13 May 2016)

Jacob":2idxyujs said:


> Other.
> I produce a slightly convex bevel but it's not "deliberate" in the sense of serving any purpose. It's "accidental" in that if you take a relaxed approach to freehand sharpening, without trying pointlessly to keep a bevel flat, you will end up convex, but get it done much faster.





Jacob":2idxyujs said:


> ...the edge only briefly in contact with the stone, as you dip the handle.





Jacob":2idxyujs said:


> It's quicker because you can put more effort into it as after the intitial 30º start you dip the handle



I think if the dip is deliberate, the convexity is deliberate; the one spawns the other. Indeed, I thought this was the essence of your idea, which you've mentioned before.

I'll apply common sense, and count you as a convex beveller in the poll, if that's OK.  

BugBear


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## Jacob (13 May 2016)

Well in theory you could dip from 30º to 25º in a flash and end up with two bevels - which would also be incidental rather than deliberate.
The only deliberate thing is to hone close to the edge at 30º and the rest of the bevel at a lower angle - which is everybody does one way or another.

Biliphuster put it more succinctly:


Biliphuster":6ks9rv1c said:


> Slightly rounded bevel, I rarely use anything other than my finest stone for this.
> 
> Occasionally I will reset a chisel by sharpening a low bevel on a coarse stone if I feel it is getting too rounded.


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## Woodmatt (13 May 2016)

I'm with Corneel and D_W


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## lurker (13 May 2016)

bugbear":3deaejat said:


> which you've mentioned before.
> 
> BugBear



Has he?
I had not noticed :lol:


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## JohnPW (13 May 2016)

I haven't voted because I use the first three depending on circumstances:

If I have access to a Tormek or similar - "hollow ground bevel, blade registers on stone at edge and heel".

With new chisels eg Lidl/Aldi - "flat bevel (Japanese style) blade registers on stone on whole bevel". I only use these for paring as I ended up with a single 25 degree bevel.

If I only have course and fine bench stones on hand - "double bevel (blade angle set a bit higher than the primary for honing)".


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## bugbear (13 May 2016)

JohnPW":1krau4ie said:


> I haven't voted because I use the first three depending on circumstances:
> 
> If I have access to a Tormek or similar - "hollow ground bevel, blade registers on stone at edge and heel".
> 
> ...



If you feel the need to be part of the poll, you can just vote for the one you use most, either in terms of numbers of tools, or frequency of use.

BugBear


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## DTR (13 May 2016)

Voted for option #4:
Hollow grind a primary bevel on a bog-standard cheapo bench grinder*
Secondary bevel on a Charnley Forest stone

Occasionally I'll go on to strop with green compound on leather, but I'm not sure if I notice any improvement over the Charnley.

Plough irons, small chisels etc get a single, slightly rounded bevel akin to option #5.

*one day I might get around to re-commissioning the hand-crank grinder.


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## JohnPW (13 May 2016)

Jacob":a4dzd1of said:


> pedder":a4dzd1of said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":a4dzd1of said:
> ...



It seems to me that if you have a rounded bevel and you are deliberately trying to "roll" the bevel over the stone, only a tiny part of the bevel will be in contact with the stone at any one moment. Compare that with a flat bevel; the whole bevel will always be in contact with the stone .

Therefore the flat bevel method would be much faster. Maybe the rounded bevel method needs high pressure and speed to compensate?


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## Corneel (13 May 2016)

At one point or another you need to remove all that steel anyway. Jacob's rounded bevel just advances that moment forwards in time. He sais it is quicker because you can use more speed and pressure. I don't know, never really used that method in earnest.


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## Jacob (13 May 2016)

Corneel":28v8wc0o said:


> ...He sais it is quicker because you can use more speed and pressure...


 That's it basically. you have to be a bit gentle with the 30º edge but once you've dipped the handle you can relax and just wang it to and fro as fast and hard as you like.


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## Jacob (13 May 2016)

JohnPW":5dnmpm4e said:


> ...........
> It seems to me that if you have a rounded bevel and you are deliberately trying to "roll" the bevel over the stone, only a tiny part of the bevel will be in contact with the stone at any one moment. Compare that with a flat bevel; the whole bevel will always be in contact with the stone .
> 
> Therefore the flat bevel method would be much faster. .......


Why "therefore"?


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## Woodmatt (13 May 2016)

There have been various comment on this and other posts on this forum about using MDF to strop.Should I save my money,not buy a strop but just dig out an offcut of MDF and pre load that with honing paste or similar.


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## bugbear (13 May 2016)

Woodmatt":1d7ftu89 said:


> There have been various comment on this and other posts on this forum about using MDF to strop.Should I save my money,not buy a strop but just dig out an offcut of MDF and pre load that with honing paste or similar.



Opinions vary.  

See this poll, and various recent threads...

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (13 May 2016)

Woodmatt":3k058uxk said:


> There have been various comment on this and other posts on this forum about using MDF to strop.Should I save my money,not buy a strop but just dig out an offcut of MDF and pre load that with honing paste or similar.



I'm with BB on this - opinions vary!

It's probably one of those things you have to try for yourself, and work out what works for you. Fortunately, it's not an expensive experiment - a scrap of MDF (or even hardwood) is probably no cost at all, and a leather strop need not be pricey, either. Salvage any old piece of leather, or buy a scrap off Ebay if needs be. Glue it to a piece of wood, and off you go. Try it without any dressing, with a coating of very mild abrasive (mine is jeweller's rouge), and see which works best for you. Some of the old craftsmen used to 'strop' a honed tool across the palm of their hand (skin is a form of leather!); this works - I've tried - but do keep the skin taut and concentrate on what you're doing!

Don't make a big deal of it, though - reading some forum entries, they'd have you believe that only leather from particular anatomical parts of certain animals, tanned by naked Peruvian virgins and finished under a full moon will do. Actually, almost anything will do - hence the MDF and hand palm suggestions. I suspect that leather became popular because back in the old days, it was fairly easy to obtain, and could be bent into shapes to suit gouges and the like.


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## Corneel (13 May 2016)

I'd go with the naked Peruvian virgins. You can't go wrong with these.


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## Woodmatt (13 May 2016)

Thanks Cheshirechappie,when I was apprentice many years ago the palm of the hand was the norm in the workshop.Having not been in the trade for some 35 years in the intervening years sharpening seems to have become an amazingly complicated subject as do many other aspects of woodworking.


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## Jacob (13 May 2016)

Woodmatt":1uiltbqa said:


> ....sharpening seems to have become an amazingly complicated subject ...


It's been "monetized" big time.
Persuade people it's difficult and you can sell them all sorts of stuff. A lot of the stuff actually does make it difficult and kinda proves the point :roll: and they buy even more stuff.


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## D_W (13 May 2016)

I'm going to make a non-monetized ridiculous video showing the freehand method on sharpening stones from $1 to $400 this weekend. 

I won't keyword spam David Charlesworth (I am against videos on youtube that mention someone else just to get views), but I will sharpen the same iron four times to a large wire edge (to simulate what would happen with wear), and anyone buying into the fact that a guide is cheaper or more efficient can compare david's video sharpening anything (I will be sharpening a #4). 

And after each sharpening, i will compare the surface finish on the quartered face of a piece of cherry (something that doesn't like to take that bright of a finish) and measure the shaving thickness. The point made will be that sharpening with a $1 stone and a follow up piece of MDF with compound takes almost no difference in time vs. really expensive stones. I'll leave the guide sharpening to someone else to show, though I have the equipment to do it. 

Monetized is right, but the stuff sold these days as sharpeng equipment is not interesting. Interesting is a piece of rock that comes out of the ground that is ideally suited for steel that is ideally suited for blades. The coincidence that something seems to exist in nature on every continent that brings a blade sharp, and rewards touch from the user. That is interesting. 

Not interesting is a progression of 4 synthetic stones that need to be flattened all the time, and a bunch of gadgetry that will no longer be the "it" gadgetry when the next thing is introduced. 

I will make an attempt to make a simplest case starting point for anyone who wants to convert to the type of method I'm talking about.


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## nabs (13 May 2016)

congratulations Bugbear you appear to have organized the first ever light hearted and good humoured discussion on sharpening in the history of t'internet  

I am a #5 (copied from Peter Sellers, at least that is what I thought he was doing anyway!)


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## Phil Pascoe (13 May 2016)

It ain't over til the fat lady sings ...


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## iNewbie (13 May 2016)

Jacob, you're on...


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## Cheshirechappie (13 May 2016)

Corneel":1at60qdp said:


> I'd go with the naked Peruvian virgins. You can't go wrong with these.



They are difficult to get hold of, though. Probably because of all the tanning oils.


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## MIGNAL (13 May 2016)

D_W":8mss83te said:


> I'm going to make a non-monetized ridiculous video showing the freehand method on sharpening stones from $1 to $400 this weekend.
> 
> I won't keyword spam David Charlesworth (I am against videos on youtube that mention someone else just to get views), but I will sharpen the same iron four times to a large wire edge (to simulate what would happen with wear), and anyone buying into the fact that a guide is cheaper or more efficient can compare david's video sharpening anything (I will be sharpening a #4).
> 
> ...



You've got to beat 1 min. 50. The time that DC takes to sharpen a chisel. Don't know why he thinks it's fast or faster than Sellers (it isn't).


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## No skills (13 May 2016)

Cheshirechappie":3rj7snv7 said:


> Corneel":3rj7snv7 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd go with the naked Peruvian virgins. You can't go wrong with these.
> ...



Don't think I'd want some Peruvian virgins oiled nut sack rubbing on my strop.


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## D_W (13 May 2016)

MIGNAL":352oizcs said:


> D_W":352oizcs said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to make a non-monetized ridiculous video showing the freehand method on sharpening stones from $1 to $400 this weekend.
> ...



Yeah, I can beat that, of course. With all four mediums with a plane iron. None of the stones I use require flattening or pre-soaking, either, so there's that, too. 

I guarantee it will be extra boring!!


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## bugbear (13 May 2016)

D_W":8rk4h49q said:


> showing *the freehand method*


*Your* freehand method, perhaps.

Not "the", as this poll and thread demonstrates. It appears the number of freehand methods is matched only by the number of freehand sharpeners. Notice the number for requests for yet more options on this poll. 

Keep voting everybody, early and often!

BugBear


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## D_W (13 May 2016)

bugbear":ti6klscv said:


> D_W":ti6klscv said:
> 
> 
> > showing *the freehand method*
> ...



After my video, there will be only one!

Sharpenageddon!


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## Jacob (14 May 2016)

MIGNAL":wqxn6vb6 said:


> .....
> You've got to beat 1 min. 50. The time that DC takes to sharpen a chisel. Don't know why he thinks it's fast or faster than Sellers (it isn't).


If a chisel is new or fresh from the grindstone it should take just a few seconds to sharpen.
Interestingly the new sharpeners are not happy with that and have invented a process they sometimes call "prepping a chisel", which wastes many minutes, if not hours, and in the hands of a beginner can spoil some good tools.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 May 2016)

Fresh off the grinder, a 1" chisel (in PM-V11 steel) will take me under 30 seconds to hone. Only a few strokes per stone are necessary with a maximum hollow (to the edge of the blade).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... SetUp.html

As the hollow recedes with re-sharpening, so the time taken to hone increases. I will re-fresh the hollow if sharpening requires about 20 strokes on each stone. 

For me, the advantage of honing on the hollow is that the bevel angle is maintained. The disadvantage is that the amount of steel to be honed is double that compared to when one lifts the end and creates a secondary bevel. However, the secondary bevel also increases the angle of the bevel, and subsequent sharpenings are likely o see this increased again. Within a short while the primary bevel will need to be re-ground to re-estalish its angle. Swings and roundabouts.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (14 May 2016)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> ....
> 
> For me, the advantage of honing on the hollow is that the bevel angle is maintained. ....


If you simply _hold_ it at the same angle every time you hone or grind, this also "maintains" the bevel. More reliably than relying on a hollow - it's difficult to be sure that your hollow will sit exactly within the chosen angle.
If you want to hone an edge at 30º just _hold_ it at 30º.
Hmm, maybe a diagram would help?


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## Cheshirechappie (14 May 2016)

Blimey - we seem to have morphed from 'my method's better than yours' to 'mine's faster than yours' - do we all have to add stop-watches to the list of essential sharpening kit, now? What did they use in the old days when stop-watches were rare and expensive? Egg-timers?

Maybe that was one of the old secrets of 18th and 19th century woodworking apprenticeships. If the apprentices didn't have the plane-iron sharp by the time the sand had run through the egg-timer, the master had them tied to a bench-end and flogged by naked Peruvian virgins with oiled nut sacks. No wonder they were glad when man-made stones replaced Turkeys and Charnley Forests!


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## ED65 (14 May 2016)

I voted for deliberate convex bevel as that's mostly what I end up with now. But I've actually used every option listed at some point. 

Weirdly the option that nobody has voted for on the poll, working the blade side to side, I did only yesterday but I'd only do this very occasionally.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 May 2016)

ED65":218g2ufw said:


> I voted for deliberate convex bevel as that's mostly what I end up with now. But I've actually used every option listed at some point.
> 
> Weirdly the option that nobody has voted for on the poll, working the blade side to side, I did only yesterday but I'd only do this very occasionally.



We were asked to vote on a grinding method. I did mention side-to-side honing as my preference, with honing on the hollow. S-to-S is a honing method and was not paired with this.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 May 2016)

Jacob":4eesytfc said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



Hi Jacob

I am able to grind a primary bevel angle quite accurately - and more importantly, in a repeatable manner. This is shown in the link I provided earlier (8" grinder with Tormek attachment). Grinding on the primary bevel maintains the angle.

Cheshirechappie, I don't believe that this thread has morphed into a speed competition. The issue of speed may, nevertheless, be a factor in deciding if a system is for you, or not. I find my system is right for me now, and it has been this way for about a decade (just changing from a Tormek to a CBN wheel on a 8" grinder in this time). Perhaps it will remain so, perhaps it may change. Although sharpening is not much of an interest of mine, it is the starting point for all woodworking. As such, I always pay attention to what others do. Trying to find an objective method of comparing systems is important. Speed and efficiency are objective variables.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Cheshirechappie (14 May 2016)

One thing the poll has shown without any shadow of doubt is that there are all sorts of methods and variations of methods, all of which work satisfactorily for those using them.

In other words, it's categorical proof that there isn't One True Way of freehand sharpening.

(....which may have been BB's 'agenda' :lol: )


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## ED65 (14 May 2016)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> We were asked to vote on a grinding method. I did mention side-to-side honing as my preference, with honing on the hollow. S-to-S is a honing method and was not paired with this.


Yes, um, I read the thread after voting. 

So you find any problems with the leading or trailing side of the bevel wearing faster with this method on wider blades? Basically anything around the size of a bench-plane iron. I think I would use this method more if I didn't have a (slight) issue with this, but saying it out loud I'm sure it's just that I need to practice it more. All together I've not done it in total for an hour, which isn't exactly long enough to gain proficiency!


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## ED65 (14 May 2016)

Cheshirechappie":322oltku said:


> In other words, it's categorical proof that there isn't One True Way of freehand sharpening.


Well I think most are aware that only those who had drunk their own Kool-Aid (or that of their teacher perhaps) believed there was one anyway.


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## Corneel (14 May 2016)

I often hone at a skewing angle. It seems to allow for a more natural body position. And it helps when honing wide irons on a narrow stone.


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## Cheshirechappie (14 May 2016)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Cheshirechappie, I don't believe that this thread has morphed into a speed competition. The issue of speed may, nevertheless, be a factor in deciding if a system is for you, or not. I find my system is right for me now, and it has been this way for about a decade (just changing from a Tormek to a CBN wheel on a 8" grinder in this time). Perhaps it will remain so, perhaps it may change. Although sharpening is not much of an interest of mine, it is the starting point for all woodworking. As such, I always pay attention to what others do. Trying to find an objective method of comparing systems is important. Speed and efficiency are objective variables.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



Well, it did get a bit close to it, and in keeping with somebody mentioning the light-hearted nature of the thread, I thought I'd try and stop it becoming too 'heavy', that's all.

Speed may be an issue for someone earning their living, though for them speed and efficiency usually come with repeated practice. For those of us enjoying our leisure hours in the shed, I think it's probably best ignored (at least at first), or at any rate placed firmly second to getting comfortable with an effective method of getting edges sharp enough.


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## AndyT (14 May 2016)

Some of us already know that many different methods work.

Three years back, Dodge and Chrispy generously organised an event where several different methods were set up and demonstrated by forum members so we could all see the evidence for ourselves. 

Anyone wanting more information about sharpening can read 11 pages worth here


ukw-sharpening-bonanza-get-together-t67911.html


My only disappointment with the day was that neither BugBear nor Jacob was able to be there.


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## D_W (14 May 2016)

AndyT":3c9k2j8v said:


> Some of us already know that many different methods work.



I would venture to guess that the number is very close to all of us. I guess it's a study in personalities to find on forums, who is the type who is insistent and discriminating vs. who is the usual conciliator with "everything works well". 

And who often pretends to be the insistent discriminating type, but it's more of a work than a shoot (to use pro wrestling terms) - I am the last type. If you can learn to do something better and more efficiently, then unless that thing is the end in itself, it's worth learning. If you refuse to, it's not the end of the world.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 May 2016)

ED65":2epf8cii said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > We were asked to vote on a grinding method. I did mention side-to-side honing as my preference, with honing on the hollow. S-to-S is a honing method and was not paired with this.
> ...



I've used side sharpening for many years. It is a stable way to hold a blade, and offers good control. I have not experienced any problems.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Sean Hellman (14 May 2016)

Corneel":2o5oc9ja said:


> I often hone at a skewing angle. It seems to allow for a more natural body position. And it helps when honing wide irons on a narrow stone.


One that I use all the time, I find that the chosen angle is easy to keep this way. Also elbows tight into the body and move from the hips and legs. The upper body is fixed in place just like a jig.


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## MIGNAL (14 May 2016)

And another, skew. Just seems more natural to do it that way.


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## D_W (14 May 2016)

skew also. It lowers the chance of gouging stones or rolling an edge.


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## bugbear (14 May 2016)

D_W":14vnc0es said:


> skew also. It lowers the chance of gouging stones or rolling an edge.



What do you mean by "rolling an edge"?

Please expand/clarify.

BugBear


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## D_W (14 May 2016)

Rolling means accidentally letting the iron tip up so that the bevel gets too steep at the very tip. 

It's a term I borrowed from razoring. If you strop and accidentally let the spine of a straight razor lift up, it can ruin a razor edge in one stroke...."rolling the edge".


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## Phil Pascoe (15 May 2016)

But ... but ... but ... round bevels good, flat bevels evil ...


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## swagman (15 May 2016)

If its common practice to use a grinding jig to work an accurate primary bevel ; why is then deemed unsavoury practice by some to use a honing jig to obtain a similar accuracy with the secondary bevel. As someone who hones freehand; I have no concerns at all with others choosing to use a jig. It is the final result that matters most; and not necessarily the technique being used to achieve that outcome.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (15 May 2016)

swagman":3m1540qv said:


> If its common practice to use a grinding jig to work an accurate primary bevel ; why is then deemed unsavoury practice by some to use a honing jig to obtain a similar accuracy with the secondary bevel. As someone who hones freehand; I have no concerns at all with others choosing to use a jig. It is the final result that matters most; and not necessarily the technique being used to achieve that outcome.



Stewy, I think that some take their sharpening more seriously than others. The nuances of uber sharpness escape me, but then they obviously stand out for others. Perhaps guides are too girlie for them? Or that freehanding is ongoing training in eye-hand coordination, and there are limitations in sharpening when outside the range of a guide. It may be argued that (and I would agree) the hollow grind is essentially a jig. The only important factor for me is that freehanding is less intrusive that setting up a honing guide. Personally, I do not like the distraction of sharpening once busy. Others may welcome this as a chance to catch their breath. Anyway, I agree with you, whatever gets your blade sharp ...

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Andy Kev. (15 May 2016)

I have a feeling that contributing to a sharpening thread is a bit like going paddling in a shark-infested lagoon but here goes: I'm generally happy to hone the secondary bevel on plane blades and chisels of 3/8" and wider by hand but I go by something which nobody else has so far mentioned and which undoubtedly will get me burned at the stake for some kind of heresy and that something is ... the sound. I've come to the conclusion that when I hear that sort of grinding (no pun intended) noise which occurs once I've elevated the blade above a certain angle, then I know that sharpening is happening and then its just a matter of keeping my body position (arms etc.) rigid so as to maintain consistency. Works every time and the sharpness achieved seems good enough too.

Is this going to get me booted out of the guild?


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## bugbear (15 May 2016)

swagman":357kl6nr said:


> If its common practice to use a grinding jig to work an accurate primary bevel ;



Interesting - in my use of the double bevel approach, as long as the primary is less-than the secondary, it'll do. So I work it freehand, on 40 or 60 grit AlZi (coarsest and fastest abrasive I have in the workshop).

I work a perfectly consistent (and tiny) secondary using a Eclipse jig, wooden block to set the projection the same every time, and fine abrasives.

BugBear


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## CStanford (15 May 2016)

Frank Klausz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAR9fyXV8go


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## Cheshirechappie (15 May 2016)

On the subject of 'freehand' and 'grinding' - I found myself doing more and more of this as time went on. When I bought the Tormek,I bought several jigs with it, but found that unless the wheel was kept perfectly true across it's width, I got all sorts of odd anomalies. In frustration and too much of a hurry one day, I just freehanded it against the wheel, moving left and right across, and to my surprise ended up with a perfectly adequate grind very quickly.

Another factor was the cost of replacement wheels. It started at 8" diameter. It's below 7" now, and if I kept on truing it up it would be down to the spindle in no time. However, my wallet protested loudly at the best part of a hundred quid for a new one, so even though the current one is egg-shaped, and often tapered or out of true on the periphery, I never true it, just use it. The jig bar is still there as a sort of tool rest if I need one, but it never sees a jig. Just grind on the high parts of the wheel until they wear down - the tool goes up and down as the egg shape keeps coming round, but it still works. I keep a small engineer's square and a bevel angle gauge handy to check progress, but it's amazing how close you get to what you want even without them, once you've had a bit of practice.

I'm not suggesting that as best practice (or even good practice!) but it does work, for me anyway. 

Same with the hand-crank grinder - the only jigging on that is a little bit of bent metal as a sort of crude tool-rest, but that's all that's needed. The great plus with the hand-crank is that you can stop cranking at the slightest sign of any trouble, so using one takes out all the fraught, tense feelings you get approaching a powered grinder.


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## Jacob (15 May 2016)

You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat 2. If you use them at all the stone goes out of flat.

Freehand works on a less than flat stone and also can help flatten it. 
You flatten the stone as you sharpen, instead of buying an expensive diamond plate (or whatever) and wasting the stone (and the diamond) by using it for flattening.


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## Tony Zaffuto (15 May 2016)

Jacob":wir8wct7 said:


> You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat 2. If you use them at all the stone goes out of flat.
> 
> Freehand works on a less than flat stone and also can help flatten it.
> You flatten the stone as you sharpen, instead of buying an expensive diamond plate (or whatever) and wasting the stone (and the diamond) by using it for flattening.



Agreed and freehand lets you use all of a stone, and, if you wish use a smaller (cheaper in price) better stone.


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## bugbear (15 May 2016)

Jacob":tsmwfz49 said:


> You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat



Simply not true. 

But I'll give you a fair chance: please explain in detail what problems you think (say) a 1/8" hollow (a LOT of wear) in the length of a 8" stone would cause in use of the usual Eclipse jig.

BugBear


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## CStanford (15 May 2016)

Surely everybody has seen the old Stanley jig that does not run on the stone. Only the item being sharpened contacted the stone. And then there is the jig in the Klausz video I posted a few entries above.


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## Cheshirechappie (15 May 2016)

Jacob":3iqjb0an said:


> You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat 2. If you use them at all the stone goes out of flat.
> 
> Freehand works on a less than flat stone and also can help flatten it.
> You flatten the stone as you sharpen, instead of buying an expensive diamond plate (or whatever) and wasting the stone (and the diamond) by using it for flattening.



I was referring to grindstones rather than flat honing stones. 

I use the grinder as a fairly 'coarse' tool just to shift waste metal quickly, and don't bother too much about the finished shape of the ground bevel - as long as there's enough metal left behind the edge to support it for the work it's intended to do (chisel), and there's enough clearance that it won't interfere with the workpiece (plane iron), that's all that's needed. The flat faces - the jigging face of a chisel, and the cap-iron seat of a plane-iron - do not contact the grindstone at any time.

Honing stones, on the other hand, do define the working edge, and do contact the flat face to back off the wire edge. Therefore, it helps if they're maintained as flat as the faces you want to work on them, to avoid developing bellied flat faces on chisels and plane irons..

Well, that's my approach, anyway.


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## bugbear (15 May 2016)

Cheshirechappie":gbun6mcf said:


> Jacob":gbun6mcf said:
> 
> 
> > You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat 2. If you use them at all the stone goes out of flat.
> ...



Ah - so my points on stones don't apply to what you said; sorry.

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (15 May 2016)

CStanford":33kooqcf said:


> Surely everybody has seen the old Stanley jig that does not run on the stone. Only the item being sharpened contacted the stone. And then there is the jig in the Klausz video I posted a few entries above.



Nothing at all wrong with either, but neither quite fall within the thread title of 'freehand sharpening'.


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## CStanford (15 May 2016)

Nor do the six or so other posts that mention jigs...


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## Jacob (15 May 2016)

Cheshirechappie":3oz0rgt2 said:


> CStanford":3oz0rgt2 said:
> 
> 
> > Surely everybody has seen the old Stanley jig that does not run on the stone. Only the item being sharpened contacted the stone. And then there is the jig in the Klausz video I posted a few entries above.
> ...


It's not running on or off the stone that is the jig problem (just one of them :roll: )
It's the fact that the wheel is behind the edge rather than in front. This means you can raise the angle and round over. 
Nobody wants this. Not least because it requires care and a bit of force to keep both the wheel and the edge in contact together.
BUT with the wheel in front you could dip the handle, round under and be quite confident that you were sharpening, with zero risk of increasing the honing angle, and all your effort going into edge contact with no fine control needed.
Jig AND rounded bevel!! The perfect combination (except you don't really need the jig).
I've raised this lotsa times and even posted up photos of prototype which worked really well. 
I'm really surprised that non of the toolies have taken it up, e.g for the Mk99 "improved" model of their range of dud jigs. :lol:


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## n0legs (15 May 2016)

Well as some of you may remember on another sharpening thread I posted how it's done in the land of n0legs, I have an update for you.

Another member contacted me, in utmost secreacy, telling me that has grandfather had a 27 cut file. Now this is truly something to behold. 25 cuts finer than a 2nd cut, you must be joking. Anyway said member assured me it was mine for the taking, only problem it was in Chile!
His grandfather had loaned it to the great Chilean sharpening master Vicente Riquelme quite some time ago, but was sure he still had it.
Well what's a guy to do? 
I'll tell you what a guys to do, get on a plane pretty damn quick and haul ass to Chile. Couldn't miss the chance of a 27 cut file, no way.
Anyways I checked the calendar and decided with the daughters wedding coming up that that would be a good time to go. Don't worry I wasn't going to miss the wedding, it's just the time the good woman takes to get ready I would have at least three days where she wouldn't notice me AWOL. 
Booked it, packed it and f***** off.
Arrival.
Well didn't I feel the right pratt. There's me in hawiian shirt, cargo shorts and hiking boots only to find Chile is more urbanised than Birmingham and London combined. There's no forests or jungle, rivers and streams it looks like the headquarters of RMC (now Cemex). Concrete plazas, eight lane highway everywhere, tower blocks of glass and steel. Not a favela or bodega in site, Wimpy homes everywhere, nice ones too.

So realising my faux pas it was straight into the nearest outfitters for a suit. Cracking three piece double breasted I bought, in charcoal. Silk shirt, black and an ever so gorgeous pink bow tie. Looking the part, yes sir! 
Suited and booted I was ready for action. Called a cab gave the driver this Vicentes last known address and off we go. 
Funny really how things turn out, he was just round the corner, I mean literaly just round the corner. I parked my ass in the cab and was getting out 30 seconds later. How hum thinks I.

With a tentative knock on the door I was met by a rather attractive young woman. I won't be saying anymore than that, I've been married and divorced I know the costs. This young lady asks me in and indicates for me to follow her to the rear of the house, the language barrier was a problem. There's me in Wenglish and her in Dutch, it was a right old laugh I can tell you. 
We sat at a table where she offered me some fresh coffee and a Bourbon biscuit. In my best Dutch, interspersed with Cantonese and Esperanto, I explained the reason for my visit. No, no, no way was her response. Now not being some kind of dummy I drew out my Sig and duly explained this was my prefered method of negotiation. Hell, it's worked for the past 20 years with the kids and the good woman, please don't think I'm some kind of brute I use the paintball gun with the 2 year old granddaughter.
The drawing of the gun changed things somewhat. She explained she was the youngest of Vicente's 28 daughters ( get a telly fella, jeezz!) and at 19 (36,22,32) was very protective of her father and wasn't going to give up the file easily. The story went on for ages and not being one for a yarn or fairytale, I laid down the law. I want the file. No! 
Right, great! 
Stalemate.
Well so it seemed. But you know when that moment arrives when the stars are all aligned, the old deck was stacked in your favour? Well this was my moment.
Behold, in walks the great man himself. I could hardly believe it, there in front of me was the great Vicente Riquelme carrier bag in hand.
It seemed he had just popped out to the Spar for some bacon and eggs, he had a guest arriving later and was wanting to offer him the national dish of a fried egg and bacon sandwich on specially imported Hovis wholegrain bread. I wouldn't have minded one myself to be honest, but the nerves had gotten at my stomach and doubted I would be able to finish one.
He asked me what it was I wanted so I went into the story of my quest, to achieve the sharpest edge attainable.
The great man sat in thought, he shifted in his seat a few times. Mumbled something to himself a few times until he decided, no problem "you can have the file" he says. Like manna from heaven, in my ears I could hear Leonard Cohen "Hallelujah, hallelujah". I had made it, all this way and I would be leaving with my elusive quarry.
I could have kissed him, and I don't mean not one of those peck on the cheek granny kisses either, full on tongue action is the way I roll.

Still in a state of shock he instructs me to follow him, we pass through a door into the kitchen then into the understairs cupboard. With a quick flash of the hand a secret button was pressed and the wall rolled back, exposing a stairway going down. Again instructed to follow him we descended the stairs.
Okay time to go off on a tangent. You know in the movie "Angels and Demons", the Papal Vaults scenes with all the books? Well this is where Ron Howard got the idea. Bulletproof glass, atmospheric control, automatic doors, chamber music, vending machine and a rest room. It makes my sharpening chamber at home look decidedly mickey mouse.
It's all there guys, everything. 
Oil stones, water stones, milk stones and kidney stones. Scary sharp and not so scary sharp. Hand cranked wheels, belt driven wheels, wind and water powered. There's the new Tormek3i, (everyone knows the injected version will be faster than the carbureted) and the Sorby ProEdge Pro Pro (coming to our shores in the autumn). 
Even The Edge was there. Ever wondered how Bono keeps the Edge so sharp, well here's the answer. Obvious really. 
Mind you at first I couldn't understand a bloody word he said, just a mixture of thick Irish Gaelic until Vicente threw him a microphone and a six string axe. Cleared him up a treat.

Anyway, the old guy shuffles over to his bench for the file. You should have seen this place, wow! wee!. This guy can get an edge on anything and I mean anything. Ever seen a sharpened sweeping brush? I doubt you have. Why sweep when you can shave, right? Incredible, absoulutely amazing. There's some stuff I can't mention, sworn to secrecy you see, but wow truly wow. 
He hands me the file with the kind of reverence one would hand over a new born. This guy lives for sharpening, he has no other reason to exist. I'm sure there was a tear in his eye but he gave me the file anyway. 
This thing is fine, not fine in a cute girl with a hot writhing body covered in sweat sort of way, it's like a bar of steel with a handle. I know I can make this work for me, I just know it. Look out chisels, knives and plane irons, you are going to the next level. 

With my booty in hand it's time to make my farewells and leave. I thank Vicente and say goodbye to The Edge. I wish he'd kept the mic, I have no idea what he said, but I nodded wished him the best and made my way up the stairs I promised Vicente and his daughter I would one day return and made for the door. 
Not wishing to make the same mistake twice I didn't call a cab, I decided to walk back to the airport. It gave me time to reflect on my day and relish in the knowledge I could go further with my sharpening than ever before. I'm pretty sure Jacob and BB are aware of Vicente and have been keeping him and his knowledge from us mere mortals for our own good. I will never forget meeting the great man and what he has given me.

The flight back was okay, slight hiccup though as I had to land at Bristol. No worries there though really, as I do enjoy looking at the old place as I pass through. Travelling down the Portway always gives me the chance to marvel at Brunels suspension bridge. I wonder what would have Brunel used for sharpening? Who knows?
At the bridge I showed my credentials and entered the motherland, home. This taffy boy loves the travel but damn it's good to be home. The good woman hadn't even noticed I'd gone, she did comment on my new suit but said she wasn't keen on my bow tie. What the hell does she know!

As for the file, well to be honest dear reader I haven't used it yet. With comments such as the good woman's I should use it on my tongue and give her what for, but that's for another time. So far I have successfuly bluntened three chisels and one plane iron, seems daft really considering the effort I put in to get them sharp in the first place, but such is the need for a trial of the file.
I will report back my findings in due course, don't worry my friends we've come too far to turn back now.
Signing out for now, n0legs.


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## CStanford (16 May 2016)

General makes a clone of the old Stanley jig that did not run on the stone:

http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-Chi ... B00004T7PB

I am not proposing the use of a jig (though they're handy for rebate planes) just addressing the notion that their running on top of the stone is an issue. It's not. There are jigs that present only the cutter being sharpened to the stone.


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## swagman (16 May 2016)

That the top surface of the honing stone needs to be reasonably flat to use a honing guide efficiently I thought was a bit of a gimme. 

Moving on to a slightly different subject ;

A question for Derek C. re Tormek Wet Grinding. If the tool steel being worked was restricted to D2 and below; how would you rate the efficiency of Tormek compared to that of your current cbn Dry Grinding system. (I am looking at upgrading my current bench grinder).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... rvana.html

http://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/assets/5 ... -image.jpg

http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/item/t ... -7-grinder

Stewie;


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (16 May 2016)

Hi Stewie

In the article on grinding D2 (via the link to my website you posted) you will note that this was done on an 8" half-speed grinder with a 3X Norton 46 grit wheel .... not the Tormek. I like the Tormek, and have used one for several years, however it is not efficiently placed for D2-type steels.

The Tormek likely could grind such abrasion-resistant steel, but it would do so very slowly. The Tormek is not designed for fast grinding; it is designed for _safe_ grinding.

A much better and more appropriate set up for grinding blades from scratch would be a 80 grit CBN wheel on a 8" dry grinder. For refreshing hollows, a 180 grit would be preferred. That is my set up at present. These wheels run very cool and grind very fast. Plus they never wear and require facing. The finish off the 180 grit is comparable to the finish off a 220 grit Tormek wheel.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... SetUp.html

While cost is not in the equation here, two CBN wheels plus new half-speed grinder from CWS would still be cheaper than a T7 Tormek.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## swagman (16 May 2016)

Thanks Derek. Appreciate your advise on this subject. 

regards Stewie;


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## bugbear (16 May 2016)

swagman":3pt2u0mq said:


> That the top surface of the honing stone needs to be reasonably flat to use a honing guide efficiently I thought was a bit of a gimme.



If the stone is only hollowed end to end, the little side clamping jigs will quite happily continue to hold the blade in a fixed relation with the surface of the stone.

It's just a concave analogue of the behaviour of a key seat rule on a convex surface (diagram exaggerated a bit for clarity  







However, when you come to remove the burr from the back of your now-sharpened blade on such a stone, you've no flat surface to use. 

If (further) the stone is hollowed side-to-side, it will create a camber on your edge at least as deep as the hollow in the stone. You may or may not) want this camber.

BugBear


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## Jacob (16 May 2016)

Armchair sharpening!
In reality, with a typical hollow stone, there will be a bit of it flat enough to remove the burr.
A stone where this would not be possible would be extremely untypical.
And you are wrong about the camber - it'd be perfectly possible to run the edge across and off the stone, just hitting the high spots.
It's these sorts of hypothetical guesses which prolong these threads. 
If you actually get down to doing it many problems simply disappear, or you work around them.


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## essexalan (16 May 2016)

While I do normally hand sharpen I still make sure the stones are flat. At present making some end grain chopping boards for friends and family so lot of sharpening needed and a LV BU Jack my weapon of choice. I do use a jig to sharpen these blades and I can't imagine a situation where I could round over a bevel using a jig and a flat stone. A stone that is not flat is pretty obvious by sight and feel, quick rub on a diamond stone no problem. A touch up on a loaded strop keeps my visits to the stones down to a minimum. I like my bevels flat!


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## G S Haydon (16 May 2016)

Another question for Derek!

Derek, I don't know anything about CBN, what kind of lifespan is expected? I'd assume in a small workshop it's potentially last a VERY long time.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (16 May 2016)

Graham, CBN has been around a long time. I first heard of it about 18 months ago, but turners have been using these wheels for 20 years. Its longevity is well established. I know some that are still going strong after 10 years. 

Since I do not do much turning outside spindles and handles (which are part of building furniture), CBN came as something of a revelation to me. It was astounding that it had not made the journey from turners to flat woodworkers. I could not believe that others, like myself, had not heard of it. This became apparent when I wrote about my "new" grinding system and reported my experiences with CBN wheels in February 2015.

Since then quite a number have adopted CBN wheels in their grinders. David (DW) purchased a wheel as well, and he has now had a fair time with it. We have very similar experiences and the same high praise for these wheels.

I use the 180 grit wheel 90% of the time, and I have not noticed any wear/reduction in it efficiency. What this basically means is that the wheel never requires any dressing or readjustments. The grinding is cool - barely warm to touch, and the finish is quite smooth (see my pictures in my article, linked above). This means that you can safely grind very close to the end of the blade without fear of overheating it, unlike a white or grey wheel.

David is apt to look at the cost factor, and these wheels are not cheap (about $200 each). However, their longevity makes them cost-effective, especially when they get used frequently. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bridger (16 May 2016)

Well done, n0legs, well done...







n0legs":2n8ldhbe said:


> Well as some of you may remember on another sharpening thread I posted how it's done in the land of n0legs, I have an update for you.
> 
> Another member contacted me, in utmost secreacy, telling me that has grandfather had a 27 cut file. Now this is truly something to behold. 25 cuts finer than a 2nd cut, you must be joking. Anyway said member assured me it was mine for the taking, only problem it was in Chile!
> His grandfather had loaned it to the great Chilean sharpening master Vicente Riquelme quite some time ago, but was sure he still had it.
> ...


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## G S Haydon (16 May 2016)

Thanks Derek, useful stuff. Not knowing anything about it your experience is very helpful!


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## D_W (16 May 2016)

Derek is right about me and cost factor. I wish I was so disciplined all the time, but having brown wheels that worked fine and a pink wheel that worked *GREAT* but didn't have much durability, i wasn't looking to spend too many curiosity dollars, and found a wheel with a rounded lip for $125. 

At that, it will most likely outlast 3 pink wheels for $40 each by a wide margin, and without changing in radius. it's definitely faster cutting, and cooler, of course, but I never minded the cheapest $6 gray wheel as long as they're dressed (they just usually have horrible balance).

I only have the 80 grit wheel, and it is definitely a little slower than it was new, but that's probably typical of any electroplate item. I don't notice any areas of wear on it. 

I saw some literature prescribing them for grinding of items 50 rc and above, so I'm not sure if laminated tools or grinding unhardened steel may be a threat to pull particles off. My brown wheel grinds unhardened stuff faster, anyway, despite being slower on hardened stuff.

Biggest threat to the durability of the CBN wheel might be something like a tool catch since the wheel is aluminum. I don't sharpen turning tools on it, so I don't expect to have that happen. Derek would have to tell you how long we've had them, I got mine almost right after he got his after measuring that i'd lost half an inch off of a pink wheel in a fairly short period of time.


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## G S Haydon (16 May 2016)

Ahh, any ally wheel. Makes sense, I had assumed it would be steel, though on reflection that would've been pretty crazy. Not sure I'll put one on the hand crank grinder though


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## D_W (16 May 2016)

G S Haydon":sj9kavvg said:


> Ahh, any ally wheel. Makes sense, I had assumed it would be steel, though on reflection that would've been pretty crazy. Not sure I'll put one on the hand crank grinder though



It would take a little while to wind one up on a hand crank grinder, they're very heavy compared to regular abrasive wheels despite being aluminum.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (17 May 2016)

The CBN wheels come in either steel or aluminium. The steel wheels, being heavier, create a good deal of momentum. The wheels are balanced at the factory, and they spin effortlessly. I timed my grinder to take 8 minutes to come to a rest after switch off. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Woodmatt (17 May 2016)

I like Frank Kluasz's box (opps jig) for holding the waterstones.


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## Corneel (17 May 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMHDT0NZ_U8

I don't understand half of it, but it seems he's got the basics right. Doesn't look very difficult either.


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## Jacob (17 May 2016)

Corneel":1kq9molh said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMHDT0NZ_U8
> 
> I don't understand half of it, but it seems he's got the basics right. Doesn't look very difficult either.


Couldn't hear what he was saying. But it really is that simple. 
It always was that simple until the new sharpeners came along to persuade everybody it's difficult (and to sell you stuff)

PS not impressed by F Krausz. What a fuss pot - all that unnecessary and expensive kit! Is he trying to sell stuff too or is he just another innocent victim? 
You can guess he doesn't what he's doing from the length of the video - 10 minutes +. Whats he going to do for ten minutes? Answer - oeuf about with a really stupid jig and too much kit.


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## D_W (17 May 2016)

Yeah, too expensive. 

Washita itself makes shavings a half thousandth thick. Not much else is really needed. 

Fiddling with that jig looked really cumbersome, BUT, he may have beginners that he teaches that are just screaming for a jig all the time. 

I have seen his chisels in an old video about dovetailing drawers, and they looked to be sharpen on oilstones and with a slightly rounded bevel.


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## bugbear (17 May 2016)

D_W":3nxibk5d said:


> Yeah, too expensive.



First half is just a sequence of 3 grits, with a combination of "flat bevel" and "sideways sharpening". Pretty basic stuff IMHO (although he wants to to vote twice, same as Derek  )

Still, what does Frank Klausz know - was he properly trained by a master in the old days, has he made lots of fine furniture?

BugBear


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## D_W (17 May 2016)

bugbear":3hwqnnkt said:


> D_W":3hwqnnkt said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, too expensive.
> ...



I was talking about the jig and those bizarre crowned half-width planes at the end. The waterstone setup is pretty standard. 

Awful setups like that jig setup (that still requires finishing the edge off of the jig) are far worse of a problem than the disease of too-little-practiced freehand sharpening. 

I tracked the thing down, and it's developed by a guy who had 28 years of experience at DMT, but I didn't find one for sale. 

The crowning plates (full width) are horribly expensive, and are again something with narrow focus that replaces a pretty easily-learned skill.


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## MIGNAL (17 May 2016)

That kids a genius. Celeb woodworker in the making. 
As for the Klausz jg, ridiculous. He obviously doesn't use it himself because he states that your own hands are the perfect jig.


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## D_W (17 May 2016)

MIGNAL":1wrv5yo6 said:


> That kids a genius. Celeb woodworker in the making.
> As for the Klausz jg, ridiculous. He obviously doesn't use it himself because he states that your own hands are the perfect jig.



It's so strange to see the promotion of it, I don't even know if you could buy it, but it looks so impractical and subjects you to buying a bunch of single purpose diamond stones that would have a limited lifetime. 

It's not strange to see someone promoting such a thing ,but strange to see frank klausz promting such a thing when he sharpens fine freehand.


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## swagman (18 May 2016)

_To understand the depth of Klausz's convictions, you need to know about his background. Thirty years ago in Hungary, at the age of 14, Frank began his woodworking career in an apprenticeship system that had remained essentially unchanged since the Middle Ages. What was unusual about it, even by European standards, was that Klausz entered into a formal, contractual apprenticeship with his own father. "I paid the highest price for my trade," Klausz explains. "Once I apprenticed, I didn't have a father, I had a master." And a stern master at that. Of the half dozen workers in his father's cabinet shop, it was Frank who was taken to task if something wasn't quite right. Perhaps wary of his own son's competition, the elder Klausz withheld certain construction tips until the very end of Frank's apprenticeship. Watching his father work, Frank asked, "How can you do that so fast?" His father replied, "After ten or fifteen years you're going to be a pretty good beginner yourself."_ http://www.frankklausz.com/homepage.html


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## Jacob (18 May 2016)

D_W":2cdtjqop said:


> .....
> I have seen his chisels in an old video about dovetailing drawers, and they looked to be sharpen on oilstones and with a slightly rounded bevel.


Not surprised, especially as he is a competent craftsman by all accounts!
It happens a lot - some highly competent woodworker is asked to demo something, for a video or a book, and instead of showing his own sloppy but quick and easy method he drags out what he imagines is a more "correct" method. Do as I say, not as I do.
In this way a lot of possibly useless info about the craft is generated and repeated forever - becoming gospel


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## Corneel (18 May 2016)

MIGNAL":222ydo0d said:


> That kids a genius. Celeb woodworker in the making.
> As for the Klausz jg, ridiculous. He obviously doesn't use it himself because he states that your own hands are the perfect jig.




Yes, isn't that kid wonderfull? Next time one of these white collar, higher educated, wannabee woodworkers are whining about the difficulty of freehand sharpening again, I'll repost the link to this video.

Plunk down the chisel on the stone at 30 degrees, move it back and forth until you get a wire edge, then remove said wire edge. That's all there is to sharpening. Often it takes a 10 year old kid to realise what life really is about.

Oh and that contraption from Klaus is indeed completely rediculous, no matter his background.


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## bugbear (18 May 2016)

Corneel":h23v8jgu said:


> Yes, isn't that kid wonderfull? Next time one of these white collar, higher educated, wannabee woodworkers are whining about the difficulty of freehand sharpening again, I'll repost the link to this video.



I hate to seems negative, but if it's all the same to you, I'll take my sharpening tips from someone who doesn't drive their tool edge into a nail as part of the process... :shock: 

BugBear


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## Jacob (18 May 2016)

bugbear":ob92xq7w said:


> Corneel":ob92xq7w said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, isn't that kid wonderfull? Next time one of these white collar, higher educated, wannabee woodworkers are whining about the difficulty of freehand sharpening again, I'll repost the link to this video.
> ...


The only people who don't make mistakes are those who don't make anything.


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## G S Haydon (18 May 2016)

That kid is a star! Proper job .


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## Jacob (18 May 2016)

essexalan":1q3gujyx said:


> .... I like my bevels flat!


Why?


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## Phil Pascoe (18 May 2016)

Because he does. He's allowed to.


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## Jacob (18 May 2016)

He can do what he likes. I just wondered why he'd want to go to so much trouble to keep bevels flat. I might be missing something!


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## essexalan (18 May 2016)

Jacob":9nc4znbf said:


> He can do what he likes. I just wondered why he'd want to go to so much trouble to keep bevels flat. I might be missing something!



Indeed I can do what I like and it takes no more effort or skill to create a flat bevel than it does a convex bevel as long as your stone is flat. Do you use a rounded bevel on your gouges? I don't have/can't afford a grinder so the concave sharpening route is out for me and creating a primary bevel on a flat SiC brick lubricated with water takes no time at all. Worked for me for many years so why change or am I missing something?


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## Tony Zaffuto (18 May 2016)

What is the goal? Sharp edge? If so, what difference does it make how you get there? It's your time you're spending.

I found it amusing that Frank Klauz has gone down the path of promoting jigs. I've sen earlier videos of him using only water-stones freehand, and this video started with that method before the "advertising" started. For me, it's freehand. Wasn't that long ago D.W. and I tried to corner the vintage washita market in the states, buying damn near every stone we could find. In that quest, I found a number of smaller natural stones, and quite a few gems in that group. Using a jig, it would be almost impossible to use my broken-in 4" long "lilly white washita", and I would be missing use of one of my absolute best stones.

I have to admit I have jigs laying around-couldn't pass picking up genuine English made Eclipse jigs, for a buck or two, and for control on my spokeshave blades, almost too short for my arthritic fingers, the Richard Kell works nicely. But for most sharpenings, Freehand is the quickest way to achieve the goal of sharpness, and the more utilized the quicker and better the results.


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## David C (19 May 2016)

I think many of you have missed the point.

He states quite clearly that he was asked to demonstrate the cambered diamond stones.

David


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## Jacob (19 May 2016)

David C":38osjzr3 said:


> I think many of you have missed the point.
> 
> He states quite clearly that he was asked to demonstrate the cambered diamond stones.
> 
> David


Well he just should have said no!


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## Jacob (19 May 2016)

essexalan":1jf76npc said:


> .... it takes no more effort or skill to create a flat bevel than it does a convex bevel as long as your stone is flat.....


I think it takes more effort and skill to freehand a flat bevel - in fact very difficult, and you have to have flat stones so that's another unnecessary process


> Do you use a rounded bevel on your gouges? ..


Well yes of course, why on earth not? NB it's not so much "using a rounded bevel" it's more about not bothering to get them flat.


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## essexalan (19 May 2016)

Jacob":2hwlw333 said:


> essexalan":2hwlw333 said:
> 
> 
> > .... it takes no more effort or skill to create a flat bevel than it does a convex bevel as long as your stone is flat.....
> ...



I don't do this for a living I do it because I enjoy it and my tools end up sharp enough for me so no need to change what I do. Another sharpening requirement I have is for Japanese kitchen knives which I use a lot and also enjoy sharpening, really a flat stone is the only way to go for those. So your unnecessary process is a very much necessary process for me and I can be bothered to try and get what I think is right, to be honest I find flat bevels aesthetically pleasing. So many methods of reaching that desirable sharp edge and if it works for you then keep on doing it but I am wide open to ways of improving what I do as long as it is a no/low cost option. If I thought that a Washita stone would put a better edge on a Gyuto made of HAP40 or any other PM steel then I would consider it but somehow I think I will stick to what I have.


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## D_W (20 May 2016)

I can hardly imagine a situation where a HAP40 knife is something positive. 

I'm not trolling, I've been down that road (and I have a HAP 40 and several high speed steel chisels that don't get much work, I guess, sitting in my shelves - I wish someone would come to my door with a hand full of money looking for such things). 

"wondersteel" seems to have replaced the understanding edge geometry and learning to sharpen efficiently. Basic VG10 knives will sharpen on just about everything if someone can't stand the idea of drying a knife each time they use it.

Sort of like tools, I guess.


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## essexalan (20 May 2016)

Regardless of the steel used you still have to understand edge geometry and learn how to sharpen, no idea if I am efficient or not. Having a knife made out of HAP40 still means you have to sharpen it they don't arrive sharp OOTB but they do keep an edge for a long time and are a lot tougher than VG10. Same to a lesser degree for other PM steels and they do not take any longer to sharpen than VG10. I don't have any chisels made out of PM and never will I have no need for them the ones I have do what I want. I still hand wash and dry my knives before putting them away regardless of what they are made of nothing is totally stainless. 
Knives are tools and whatever suits you is what counts.


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## Jacob (20 May 2016)

essexalan":11m50an9 said:


> ... you still have to understand edge geometry ....


What, remember "30º"? You could always write it down somewhere if it's a problem


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## essexalan (20 May 2016)

Jacob":ofxi7va9 said:


> essexalan":ofxi7va9 said:
> 
> 
> > ... you still have to understand edge geometry ....
> ...



Would never have thought of that  Thanks for the tip Jacob but I was actually talking about knife bevels which vary from <10 degrees to 20 degrees each side that is if you have a 50/50 bevel. Yep 30 degrees sounds about right except when it isn't like with mortise chisels and hard wood but whatever floats your boat.


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## D_W (20 May 2016)

essexalan":3jk6t6gp said:


> Regardless of the steel used you still have to understand edge geometry and learn how to sharpen, no idea if I am efficient or not. Having a knife made out of HAP40 still means you have to sharpen it they don't arrive sharp OOTB but they do keep an edge for a long time and are a lot tougher than VG10. Same to a lesser degree for other PM steels and they do not take any longer to sharpen than VG10. I don't have any chisels made out of PM and never will I have no need for them the ones I have do what I want. I still hand wash and dry my knives before putting them away regardless of what they are made of nothing is totally stainless.
> Knives are tools and whatever suits you is what counts.



Whatever suits us by sales literature is what sells, and maybe endorsement. 

I have a VG10 knife, and one made of blue #2, as well as some western knives. The VG10 knife sharpens freehand in about five minutes once every several months, same with the blue steel knife. 

The western knives are steeled, and don't need to be sharpened as finely. 

We don't really need to know anything about knife bevel geometry if we are in the feedback loop. If the knife feels blunt in food even when it shaves hair, then the angle is too blunt. If it feels keen in food but chips easily (especially somewhere other than the very edge), then the bevel angle is too slight. We can adjust accordingly based on our experience. What ends up happening is that the angle that's acceptable has a lot more to do with hardness than type of steel.


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## essexalan (20 May 2016)

You don't get much sales literature with Japanese knives and I would not buy a knife endorsed by some TV chef so I do some research and go for it. Never used a high carbon Japanese knife but perhaps one day I have heard they can be made a lot sharper than PM knives. The usual suspect for a knife being sharp but not cutting well is that the edge has become too thick and the primary bevel needs thinning. Agree with setting the bevel angle I always stick with the OOTB angles for a while and then push it a bit more acute until I get chipping then back it off, works for me. Some PM steels like R2 can take a very acute angle and not chip, HAP40 nowhere near as much. I think it is something to do with the size of the carbides in these alloy steels, the stuff that makes them harder, tougher etc. I do not steel western knives all you are doing is straightening a folded edge of fatigued metal out, I prefer to resharpen them with a well worn fine diamond plate. VG10 takes a good edge but seems to lose it quite quickly and then stay sharp enough for some time, they are the knives I let my daughters use ;0).


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## Jacob (20 May 2016)

essexalan":3pi7nhut said:


> Jacob":3pi7nhut said:
> 
> 
> > essexalan":3pi7nhut said:
> ...


Right. 
I've inherited a family carving set (3rd generation could be 100 years old) which is ordinary Sheffield steel (not stainless) with ordinary bone handles. It's been sharpened with a steel all this time, with nobody having the faintest idea about "edge geometry" but it has always cut really well!
Hope that helps!


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## essexalan (21 May 2016)

Right. 
I've inherited a family carving set (3rd generation could be 100 years old) which is ordinary Sheffield steel (not stainless) with ordinary bone handles. It's been sharpened with a steel all this time, with nobody having the faintest idea about "edge geometry" but it has always cut really well!
Hope that helps![/quote]

Then you probably have some quality steel there most knives of that era are totally worn out. When I worked as a lad in a butchers then there was much clanking of steel in a display of showmanship by the butcher but once a week a van would visit and all the knives and cleavers were reground on a manual wheel, I think the bloke pedalled it. Steeling will straighten and burnish the edge but you will still not get as good an edge as with a proper resharpen. Think of it as a large burr on your plane blade you keep flipping the blade until you have abraded it away, with a steel you just move it back in line and do it enough times and it will break off. No you don't have to know anything about edge geometry nor do you have to appreciate a really sharp piece of steel, if your knives will cut ripe tomatoes in thin slices under their own weight then obviously you have nothing to learn.


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## bugbear (21 May 2016)

essexalan":m3m2h7ks said:


> Then you probably have some quality steel there most knives of that era are totally worn out. When I worked as a lad in a butchers then there was much clanking of steel in a display of showmanship by the butcher but once a week a van would visit and all the knives and cleavers were reground on a manual wheel, I think the bloke pedalled it. Steeling will straighten and burnish the edge but you will still not get as good an edge as with a proper resharpen. Think of it as a large burr on your plane blade you keep flipping the blade until you have abraded it away, with a steel you just move it back in line and do it enough times and it will break off. No you don't have to know anything about edge geometry nor do you have to appreciate a really sharp piece of steel, if your knives will cut ripe tomatoes in thin slices under their own weight then obviously you have nothing to learn.



Good to hear from someone with actual knowledge on Butchers' knife sharpening, which many(*) people mythologise as the high point of knife sharpening.

EDIT;

post1000854.html?hilit=%20double%20shear#p1000854

It's certainly true that a local butcher's knives are probably sharper than 90% or more of his customers' knives.

BugBear

(*) try talking to a fishmonger about butcher's "sharp" knives


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## Corneel (21 May 2016)

I have once or twice wandered over to knife forums or youtubes. If you think sharpening is a hotly debated topic overhere, well, you've got something to learn!

I am woefully ignorant about knife sharpening. Something I really need to target.


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## essexalan (21 May 2016)

Very true BugBear I have watched the market fish guys filleting and they keep their knives very sharp and not the sort of knife you see sold now as a filleting knife. Long and wide two swipes and that's a large cod filleted with minimal wastage, quick touch up and on to the next. Cast steel makes good tools and I like it a lot thanks for the link.


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## D_W (22 May 2016)

There used to be a huge fish market here, and aside from looking at the knives, one notices the extreme stink of being in an enclosed building....anyway, the knives. The fish guys here use cheap knives - different than you'd see someone using for a tuna worth several thousand dollars. There is a separate market that has two of those guys who use japanese knives. 

At any rate, to address a couple of the points:
* knives that are intended to be steeled do very well when steeled by a smooth steel, dozens of times between sharpening. I don't have an opinion on serrated steels, because I don't use them
* sharpening a knife that is soft and intended to be steeled with a diamond hone instead every time doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I did that for a while, too, until I could get a decent smooth steel

Knives that are designed soft so that they can be steeled should be steeled, knives that are too hard to be steeled should be sharpened. A knife that can't be sharpened fairly quickly is a waste of time, or a specimen for staring at rather than using. That's my opinion, at least. It's the job of the makers to convince you that you can't get by with a plain rikizai knife made of VG 10 or blue #2, you know, the ones that are $75, and convince you that there is something to gain by getting a knife that stays sharp twice as long but is several clicks harder and fails with little chips and takes longer to sharpen. 

Marketing of japanese knives is different. They are not peddled in the home store catalogs (maybe some rikizai knives are), but instead sold on sites extolling the virtues of a knife 65 hardness instead of 63, and with magic wondersteel qualities that make it worth 10 times as much (perceived to be, at least). Those things are made more for people who want to role play in their own houses and pretend that they are like the professional fish guy down the street. On knife forums and in youtube comments, you often see "i need..." "i need..." this or that something that didn't exist 20 years ago.

If there were no japanese knives, people would be able to do anything they do with western knives. If there was no powder metal this or that, people would be able to do (competently) everything they do with knives similar to the current rikizai knives. 

Reminds me a lot of beginning woodworking, there's always someone who "knows better" than the traditionalists, and there's always a crowd telling us why technical advances have made the previous best unacceptable. Not much of it is rooted in reality, and still with all of it, the best skill to learn is to be able to sharpen quickly with minimal equipment and no gadgets. AT least if the idea is actually doing work with the knives (or tools).


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## essexalan (23 May 2016)

As with everything there is the law of diminishing returns and none of my knives are hand forged AFAIK, paying £800 and upwards for one that is seems a bit daft but I do appreciate the work that goes into such a blade. So if you can find no difference between a £2 bottle of wine and a £10 one then you are wasting your money or driving and old banger versus the latest off the German production lines. I do enjoy using the Japanese knives I have and consider them worthwhile, sharpening them was another skill to learn so I enjoy doing that as well. As for steeling what I said I stand by my steel was ground smooth, polished a long time ago and is used for cabinet scrapers. Same with planes are any Holtey planes actually in use or are they all in collectors cabinets? So you can buy a clunker Stanley/Record at auction and turn it into a good efficient plane which will do the job as well as anything else out there so why buy anything else? Personally I have done just that and a couple of LN planes I own are now gathering dust but I still like to use one of my two infills to finish the job. Why? Because I enjoy using them, they fit me.
So if I could sell you a plane iron which was guaranteed never to need sharpening for the lifetime of the owner would you buy one?


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## Jacob (23 May 2016)

essexalan":3g7jr0g0 said:


> .......So if you can find no difference between a £2 bottle of wine and a £10 one then you are wasting your money ....


Serious wine buffs are known to avoid blind tasting as they often can't tell the difference either! Well documented. 
Not sure how this relates to woodwork but I'm sure it could be made to. :lol:


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## MIGNAL (23 May 2016)

There's obviously a lower limit. A £2 (if it exists) bottle of wine isn't going to taste that great or the chances are it's going to be fairly poor. That's what my taste buds tell me whenever I've bought a very cheap wine, which is hardly ever these days. Telling the difference between a £10 bottle and a £20 or £30+ bottle could turn out to be much harder than many would care to admit. I very much doubt that I could do it without looking at the label or the price tag - generally speaking.


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## Corneel (23 May 2016)

Point is, the old Stanleys are seriously good planes. The castings are very good quality, lighter weight then the newer offerings but very stable. I have a set of turn of the century Stanleys and only the #3 needed a bit of sole flattening. The frogs fit precisely without any wobbling, the blades are thin and laminated, quite a feat! Rosewood handles. I would easilly put them into the 30 quid wine category.

Contrast that with cherry wood handles, thicker, heavier and softer castings, chipbreakers that are not designed to break chips, thick blades made from A2 (yek!).


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## essexalan (23 May 2016)

I don't have old Stanleys but probably 70's era Records plus a late Stanley and they did need a bit of work plus the blades are not good IMO. The blades were replaced with Smoothcut Japanese laminated blades which proved to be far better and quite cheap at the time. What really transformed mine was the information supplied about cap iron placement I must have been the only person who did not know about it. It made sense, it was free and it works :0) Thanks to all concerned. 
As to the performance of the various cap irons I have the only ones that work with the minimum of fettling are the Stanley type or some of the old British cap irons. 
Still have not made up my mind about A2 but it does have it uses primarily for planeing timber to size quickly where the chipping does not matter much, don't think I would buy another one though.


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## D_W (23 May 2016)

essexalan":sjxkm4d5 said:


> As with everything there is the law of diminishing returns and none of my knives are hand forged AFAIK, paying £800 and upwards for one that is seems a bit daft but I do appreciate the work that goes into such a blade. So if you can find no difference between a £2 bottle of wine and a £10 one then you are wasting your money or driving and old banger versus the latest off the German production lines. I do enjoy using the Japanese knives I have and consider them worthwhile, sharpening them was another skill to learn so I enjoy doing that as well. As for steeling what I said I stand by my steel was ground smooth, polished a long time ago and is used for cabinet scrapers. Same with planes are any Holtey planes actually in use or are they all in collectors cabinets? So you can buy a clunker Stanley/Record at auction and turn it into a good efficient plane which will do the job as well as anything else out there so why buy anything else? Personally I have done just that and a couple of LN planes I own are now gathering dust but I still like to use one of my two infills to finish the job. Why? Because I enjoy using them, they fit me.
> So if I could sell you a plane iron which was guaranteed never to need sharpening for the lifetime of the owner would you buy one?



The last question, no. I would assume you'd have it set up in a way that would be what I want. I will agree that the 70s irons seemed to have gone into the toilet all at once. What's strange is that the coarser looking later irons (I just got one in a new english made 12-904, though I'm prepared now to throw the rest of the plane away other than the screws and the iron)...anyway, those coarser later irons are OK. 

The original vintage stanley irons are really nice, especially the laminated types. I also at one point had a tsunesaburo rikizai iron comparable to the smoothcut, and it was a nice iron, but it ultimately got sold in a plane. 

I missed the A2 quote, maybe it was in a later post. I can tell you how much I think of it - I've got a bedrock 605 that I need to dump and I thought it would probably have a vintage iron in it, but it does not - it has a modern A2 iron in it. You don't get anything extra for that when you go to sell a plane like a bedrock, so I could switch that out for another vintage iron that I have on hand and get the same amount of money for the plane (maybe more with a nice vintage iron). I won't be switching it out. I wouldn't trade a good vintage iron for a new A2 iron. 

re: the knives - the $400 knives that are rikizai are the ones that don't make sense to me, or that are just very dull looking powder steel blades - and when you go look more closely at the reviews, the objective ones suggest that there hasn't been much gain (and the defective rate seems to be higher). One that comes to mind are Richmond knives sold over here by a retailer who brands his knife by his last name. Some of the powder metal reviews aren't so good. I get the $800 (what they cost here) hand forged and hand finished thing, that is a craft that you're paying someone to do and thus the price. Not something I'd buy, but I understand the proposition - it goes beyond capabilities of the knives (I'm sure those $800 knives will chip, too - just as you can push a kiyotada chisel too hard and chip them). 

Ditto on the cap iron - it has really thinned out my shelves.

(something doesn't make sense with the steeling comment still, though. Light touch on the last strokes pushes the foil straight up, but a knife that's been steeled a few times shouldn't have an organized foil, anyway. Most of those knives just don't hold their sharpened edge long enough to warrant sharpening every time).


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## essexalan (23 May 2016)

Would not know what I am looking for with Stanley blades and the various secondhand tool sellers seem to call everything vintage. A2 is OK but I only use it for cleaning up sawn timber where the chips don't matter much.
Never paid that much money, $400, for a knife so I would not know, all Japanese knives will chip if you abuse them so they do have their limitations. For all the tough work I use Western knives, like boning or cutting frozen meat up for the dogs. Have not used a steel in over 30 years always a fine diamond plate and I only have stainless steel Western knives, they still get a lot of use. I did find that the knife tended to stay sharper for longer using the plate, those diamond hones are far too coarse IMO and possibly ceramic hones may be better.


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## bugbear (23 May 2016)

D_W":1x7aaiub said:


> One that comes to mind are Richmond knives sold over here by a retailer who brands his knife by his last name.



Who's that?

Richmond knives info here:

http://richmondknives.com/products.php

BugBear


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## D_W (23 May 2016)

bugbear":hku71ioy said:


> D_W":hku71ioy said:
> 
> 
> > One that comes to mind are Richmond knives sold over here by a retailer who brands his knife by his last name.
> ...



I looked through that after I made that comment. It appears that the line is a lot larger than it was previously, and there is a lot more stuff like I favor in it and less (perhaps no) $400 stuff. 

So my comment is about 2 years out of date, as that's the last time I read reviews on $400 powder Richmond knives. It appears the line those knives were in (addict) is being phased out. (presumably, that stuff didn't sell too well). Part of the criticism at the time, also, was that there was (probably still is) a forum attached to that site where moderators allowed discussion of the various knives (but squashed any posts that were negative). 

I can't say too much about the knives there now, they're probably fine. The simpler knives are, the easier it seems for people to do them well and consistently (i'd trust a blue #2 knife that's $75 and not much more than something punched out of rikizai to be pretty good. I wouldn't have quite so much faith about things that haven't been out a while). 

At any rate, my example is out of date, and I'm a little too lazy to go look (i recall that there used to be some static about knives that are popular in japan outside of enthusiasts - they have sort of the crate and barrel kind of appeal where well heeled customers will pay twice for the same thing they could get under another label. Moritaka might be a name I recall, but not sure. I'd have to ask stanley covington). 

All of that said, I'm totally thrilled with the quality of the rikizai $75 knives. Any time I think "I wonder if there's something that would hold an edge a little longer", I'm sure there is something that would hold a little longer, but at 5 times the cost, and something like a knife used for vegetables in blue 2 stays sharp so long it's ridiculous, especially when a touch up on a suita is literally a couple of minutes for then months more of blissful slicing.


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## Jacob (23 May 2016)

Do you have any recipes or is it just about sharpening?


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## D_W (23 May 2016)

Jacob":3sfrwlgl said:


> Do you have any recipes or is it just about sharpening?



Of course, though anything fresh meat or fresh fruit and vegetables is fair game (I don't play fishmonger cutting apart whole fish, nor sushi chef). 

And bread, from scratch (like from wheat berries, not flour).

Even if nobody does anything other than cut fresh fruit and vegetables and never actually makes a recipe, they deserve a knife that does it properly.


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## Benchwayze (28 May 2016)

Depends on what tool I am sharpening. But I don't use a honing guide, or the 'rule trick', if that's what you mean. 8)


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## swagman (30 May 2016)

Slightly off topic; the following shows my recently purchased 6 inch cnc grinding wheels (80 and 180 grit), with the Woodcut Tru Grind sliding track tool rests. The old heavy duty grinder runs at 2850 rpm. I will need to relocate those slide tracks to obtain a higher approach against the grit face of the cbn wheels. No instructions were supplied so it was all guess work setting these things up. There is plenty of existing clearance between the top of the slides and the bottom line of the cbn wheels; so most likely I resolve this issue by fitting a 1 3/4 inch packer under both slide bases. All good; easy fix.

A big thanks to Derek C. for his recommendation on the cnc wheels. 

Stewie;


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## swagman (31 May 2016)

I was able to increase the height of the tool rest by moving the slide track bases 2 inches further back. With the vertical adjustment arms set at 70* and the tool rest adjusted to 32* , the hollow grinding bevel equates to 25*. ( + 7 * bias with the tool rest setting) The following photo's illustrate the before and after height difference gained with the tool rest. Job done.

Stewie;


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## swagman (31 May 2016)

_An additional comment_; the rubber cleaning sticks used for sanding discs do an excellent job on the grit surface of cbn wheels.

Stewie;


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## DennisCA (31 May 2016)

I do it like Paul Sellers, though I try to minimize the camber. I also use my belt grinder but I mostly use it to reset the angle and do touch ups on the hand stone. Once I get some fine trizacts I might just do it all on the grinder.


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## swagman (31 May 2016)

The chisel shown within the bottom photo received a full 25* hollow ground on the 180 grit cbn wheel ( formed a light burr to the front edge ) with no obvious signs of residual heat being generated. Quite astonishing considering its a 6 inch grinder running at 2700rpm.

Stewie;


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## memzey (31 May 2016)

Where does one get these CBN wheels from and can I get one to fit my diddy grinder that takes wheels like this?


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## swagman (31 May 2016)

memzey; attached is the supplier I used. http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/catego ... cbn-wheels

Stewie;


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## D_W (31 May 2016)

Looks like a nice setup, stewie.


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## memzey (31 May 2016)

I think my grinder is a 5" model. Can't find anyone supplying CBN wheels for that size :duno:


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## swagman (1 Jun 2016)

memzey; you may be able to remove the existing guards and fit a 6 inch cbn wheel; I would recommend you purchase the wider face 40mm cbn wheels; also check the rpm rating on your grinder (up to 3000 rpm on most cbn wheels);


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## memzey (1 Jun 2016)

I'll check tonight and post some pics if SWMBO allows me a bit of shed time!


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## memzey (1 Jun 2016)

Ok here is a pic of my grinder:



It may be old and diddy but it's a great little machine. Superbly balanced, whisper quiet and meets my occasional needs. Made in Denmark in the 1980's or so I'd guesstimate. The only reason I'm considering a new disc for it is that I've gauged the corse grit one quite badly with some very crude reshaping of steel I did a while back. 

Now there is not adequate clearance for a 6" stone but I think I can remove the covers which would mean it would fit but I'd be left without tool rests (not that they are great or anything but they are better than nothing). Would doing this mean I'd need to replace both sides in order to retain the balance of the machine?


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## swagman (2 Jun 2016)

memzey; the cbn wheels are machine balanced at the factory so I see a concern with running the 1 cbn wheel; I note from your attached photo your grinder is rated at 2975rpm; I have forwarded a question to another forum site to find out what the impact will be on the rpms fitting to a larger 6 inch dia. wheel; an important question considering the cbn wheels are rated up to 3000rpm._ (These wheels can be mounted on a 3000 RPM or 1500 RPM bench grinder.)_ http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/item/v ... -cbn-wheel

Another check you will need to do is measure the shaft dia. on your grinder. Within your photo it states the grinding wheel internal dia. at 13mm; the smallest bushes supplied with the Vicmarc cbn wheels are in imperial at 1/2 inch (12.7mm). The bushes need to be a slide fit only on the shafts to maintain perfect balance when running.

Stewie;


*received a reply on the question I sent out*;[/b] _ There is no change in RPM but the velocity of the surface of a 6 inch wheel is higher than for a 5 inch wheel. The ratio of the diameters will tell you how much faster (6/5 = 1.2) 20% higher surface speed for 6 inch wheel as compared to 5 inch wheel.
\
Note - it may take a bit longer for the 6 inch wheel to spin up to rpm if it is heavier or if the weight is distributed non uniformly to the outside of the new wheel. _


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## swagman (2 Jun 2016)

memzey; attached details fitting cbn wheels to your grinder; the Vicmarc cbn wheels do come supplied with a flanged bush and outer washer; refer to the photo;s I posted to better understand which side of the cbn wheels should face the outside. 

Stewie;

skip to the 2min mark on this youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgV9lVxojh4


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## lurker (2 Jun 2016)

Memzey for lots of reasons, not least safety I'd advise you not to fit a larger wheel than the machine is designed to hold.
Talk to me at Richard Arnolds on Saturday about it.
If possible bring the grinder.

The damaged wheel ........cant you just dress it?


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## lurker (2 Jun 2016)

swagman":2qu041xd said:


> memzey; you may be able to remove the existing guards and fit a 6 inch cbn wheel; I would recommend you purchase the wider face 40mm cbn wheels; also check the rpm rating on your grinder (up to 3000 rpm on most cbn wheels);



Sorry! but this is dangerous advice.


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## DennisCA (2 Jun 2016)

Build new guards...


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## lurker (2 Jun 2016)

DennisCA":1afphxh8 said:


> Build new guards...



Its not just a question of guards


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jun 2016)

lurker":2sulis1a said:


> swagman":2sulis1a said:
> 
> 
> > memzey; you may be able to remove the existing guards and fit a 6 inch cbn wheel; I would recommend you purchase the wider face 40mm cbn wheels; also check the rpm rating on your grinder (up to 3000 rpm on most cbn wheels);
> ...


I believe not, as the CBN wheels don't fracture or throw masses of hot sparks.


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## DennisCA (2 Jun 2016)

lurker":2cqumqv4 said:


> DennisCA":2cqumqv4 said:
> 
> 
> > Build new guards...
> ...



Then what is it?


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## memzey (2 Jun 2016)

Cheers guys. I'll bring it to Richards do on Saturday with a few other oddities for show. I don't use it that much but would like to get it sorted if possible as when I do need it nothing else will really do. 

Back on to the topic of this thread; the reason I don't use it that much is because I freehand on oil stones for all my sharpening. My technique; wang it up and down a lily white Washita, in an impatient fashion and at a rough approximation of 30* for about 10 seconds or until an even burr is formed. Then repeat for about another 10 seconds or so on a black Arkansas (at a minutely higher angle if I remember to) then strop. I generally end up with a slightly convex bevel but that's not on purpose just a byproduct of doing it this way. The whole process means the plane iron if off the stock for less than 2 minutes. All my edge tools dry shave hair easily. I should also say that I am the infamous beginner many people refer to with respect to using jigs etc to make sharpening easier. Terrified me at first but last year I took the plunge with a couple of old stones I picked up at boot fairs for 50p a pop and after about half an hour or so I was getting perfectly acceptable results using a fine India stone. I did succumb to jiggery once when I purchased a Kell jig off the bay for a decent price (or so I thought). Beautifully engineered if that is what interests you. Profoundly useless if making edge tool sharpening a quick and easy process is what interests you. This is all, of course, just my honest opinion based on personal experience. Others may differ and that is fine by me .


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## swagman (2 Jun 2016)

phil.p":1shbbnmt said:


> lurker":1shbbnmt said:
> 
> 
> > swagman":1shbbnmt said:
> ...



phil.p; thank you for raising that valid point; I would not have suggested removing the grinding wheel guards had the new grinding wheels been made from silicon carbide, chromium oxide, or aluminium oxide. Eye protection should always be worn when operating a grinder, especially when grinding metal. 

Stewie; 


_There is another advantage in that there is never any risk of these wheels exploding. They will not chip or crack from tool dig ins. You can not crack them from over tightening the nut. If you drop them they will not break._ http://www.robohippy.net/featured-article/


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## D_W (2 Jun 2016)

I wonder what the 3k limit is on the wheels. I've been running a 6" full speed grinder (3600) with no ill effects, and I believe my wheel is steel (I thought it was aluminum, but the seller says they're steel - which would explain the weight). 

The seller who sold mine also says 3600 is fine. 

Perhaps it's a thing related to 60hz electricity vs. 50? Don't know. 

I do like to have the guard on my grinder as I don't always wear glasses and the guards are substantial on my grinder such that you can stand inside the arc covered by the guards and get nothing off of the cbn wheel. The bits that the wheel shaves off are substantial and if you stand outside of the radius the guard covers, you can feel them and you would absolutely want to wear safety glasses. I would want to avoid getting hit by the little stingers no matter what (the wheel is 80 grit). 

(my guards are the cast baldor type, they cover most of the wheel, but the end cover doesn't fit on with them, so it is off and a bit of the wheel is exposed).


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