# Which combination/plough Plane?



## Dissolve (11 Jun 2011)

Hi,

I've used a record plough plane before to rout a strip out of a guitar neck for the truss rod. Esseintially It's just a 6mm wide strip in the center of the neck.

But anyways, it was a record, andit had a chunk of wood on the fence to keep it parrallell to the edge and to avoid the metal damaging the wood, aside from that I have no idea what model it was.

I've seen some stanley 50/50s models go for around £35 in great condition with a selection of cutters on eBay. Just wondering if this would be suitable?

and on that note, what is the difference between the 50 and the 50s?

Cheers!


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## Alf (11 Jun 2011)

#50 has plough, beading, rebating and T&G cutters while the #50S is just a plough - I believe either would suit your requirements, assuming the width of the cutter suited. Records did have metric cutters offered, but I'm not sure about the Stanleys.


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## Dissolve (11 Jun 2011)

So would pretty much any "combination" plane suit my needs? for the moment literally all I need is to be able to cut a 6mm channel..

I have no idea what the other functions you listed are. But I'm assuming as this plane comes with a 6mm cutter it will fo the job?:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

Cheers!


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## AndyT (11 Jun 2011)

Yes, and Yes it would.

If you are looking at these 'modern' Record ploughs, the difference between the 50 and the 50C was that the 50C had nickers for severing the fibres when working across the grain. Not relevant to your requirement.

Lots of people don't like the glossy (=slippery) plastic handle on those, and prefer the older models with either a metal or wooden handle. If you just want to make grooves with the grain, what you want is a plough plane. A combination plane adds extra shaped blades.


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## dunbarhamlin (12 Jun 2011)

I've used everything from a Record 043 to a Stanley 43 for the very same job. For a U-shaped channel, just grind a cutter to shape.


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## Vann (12 Jun 2011)

dunbarhamlin":2c9gbgjv said:


> I've used everything from a Record 043 to a Stanley 43...





Blood & Gore":2c9gbgjv said:


> #43 - Miller's Patent Adjustable Metallic Plow and Matching Plane 1871 - 1895.


 Methinks he means a Stanley #45.

From your description all you need is a Record #043 or #044, although a Stanley #50/Record #050
will allow a greater variety of shapes, at the cost of complexity. Sometimes KISS is the best way (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Cheers, Vann.


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## Dissolve (12 Jun 2011)

dunbarhamlin":ifeq1sl5 said:


> I've used everything from a Record 043 to a Stanley 43 for the very same job. For a U-shaped channel, just grind a cutter to shape.



Hey, didn't think about that! Given that I will be wanting to create U shaped cahnnels some of the time..
Would a combination plane be better than a plough plane?

I'd rather buy one plane that will sort of "future proof" me for when I need to make U channels..
Any good references for the different models and their features

cheers


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## Dissolve (12 Jun 2011)

dissolve":qtx7u4du said:


> dunbarhamlin":qtx7u4du said:
> 
> 
> > I've used everything from a Record 043 to a Stanley 43 for the very same job. For a U-shaped channel, just grind a cutter to shape.
> ...



Just to expand on that, I've seen a lot of Stanley 50's go on ebay for an affordable price. Anyone reccomend/not reccomend a Stanley 50?

Would it be much better than buying a cheap newer record 50c?

Thanks


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## Richard T (12 Jun 2011)

I have both the plastic handled Record and the cast handled Stanley - both from John's Junk at the boot sale. They both do a good job but I think overall I would rate the record better, plastic handle aside. Its blade holding and feeding business is very solid and accurate.
Its full set of cutters includes a tongue cutter which is great fun and dead useful. The plastic handle would become quite wearisome if doing a lot with it, boarding the loft for instance.


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## AndyT (12 Jun 2011)

dissolve":1afq83ud said:


> Any good references for the different models and their features?
> 
> cheers



As Alf has modestly not mentioned it, may I point you in the direction of her admirably thorough and practical guide here:

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/combinationplanes.html


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## jimi43 (12 Jun 2011)

Will you guys stop talking about combination planes with affection!!!

I am trying so very hard to avoid the huge slope that I keep walking past that is the vintage 55.

I nearly fell over the edge on FleaBay this week...£68 but had a repair to the depth stop socket...mmmm

Well...I missed it anyway....but it was close!

Jim


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## Richard T (12 Jun 2011)

Well Jim, take evasive action by watching any episode of the Woodwright's shop with Roy Underhill using one. He invariably describes it as having the look of something used by a civil war surgeon and adds that it's a very good plough and not so good at all the other things it's supposed to do. I think he's being diplomatic at that. 8)


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## AndyT (12 Jun 2011)

Isn't it true to say that the extra things a 55 could do, which a 45/405 50/050 cannot are mostly things that you would rarely need to do any way? So the perceived benefit of being able to do them becomes not very much really. The main extra is the moulding cutters, supported by the vertically adjustable extra skate - but mouldings are easier with wooden moulding planes. From memory, the other bonus feature is being able to plane chamfers at angles other than 45 degrees - which I've not needed to do yet. 

But then again, if someone offered me one at the right price, I'd be tempted...


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## jimi43 (12 Jun 2011)

I know...but just look at all them there knobs....I don't want it for using...just twiddling! :mrgreen: 

But...I do appreciate you putting me off guys...valiant effort! =D> 

Jim


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## Dissolve (12 Jun 2011)

aha I love how people seem to be tempted by the sheer look of them.

Think I'll go for a stanley 50 or a Record 50c.. 
Does anyone know what the difference is between a Stanley 50 and a 50s?

Can't seem to find any info on the web!


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## Richard T (12 Jun 2011)

There are a few differences the main one being the notches in the cutters are in different places. I mean the notches that the lip of the threaded wheel adjuster fits into. 
The record has its cutters notched in the side and the stanley across the back face. This makes them non - interchangeable. 
They both do the job. The important thing to look for when buying one is that there are no cracks - there are some pretty vulnerable pieces of casting esp. on the Stanley. Also that all the bits are there; fence, depth stop, sliding pins, right bolts etc. 
I haven't looked recently but I'm sure that all the cutters are available as replacements from the usual suspects. Though I think they may be likely to be in English ... I'm sure metric ones must exist though.


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## dunbarhamlin (12 Jun 2011)

Vann":12uxf7r0 said:


> dunbarhamlin":12uxf7r0 said:
> 
> 
> > I've used everything from a Record 043 to a Stanley 43...
> ...



Nope - he meant a type 6 miller's patent  So, really one extreme to the other.

And since you won't need to make complex moldings, any plough will suit - that was the real meaning of my comment, that from 10-a-penny on up will all serve equally.


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## Alf (14 Jun 2011)

Richard T":3q3mzyhq said:


> There are a few differences the main one being the notches in the cutters are in different places. I mean the notches that the lip of the threaded wheel adjuster fits into.
> The record has its cutters notched in the side and the stanley across the back face.


T'other way about, Richard. And then, off the top of my head, I believe of the usual suspects only the Record 044 has the grooves in the back. It's usually the side the notch is on that's the trouble, but just disregard the depth adjustment and it's not a problem. So far it seems that cutter thickness is pretty much the same across the board.

And methinks the #43 drive-by was _too_ subtle - next time remember to *meep-meep* as you go by... :wink:


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## AndyT (14 Jun 2011)

If you have blades whose side notches are in the wrong place or don't fit it's easy enough to saw and file new notches or adjust to cope with the difference between the 45/405 skinny pin and the 050 spokeshave style threaded adjuster with a wide ring. I have some orphaned blades from an 044 which now have grooves in the back and notches in the sides and will fit wherever I put them.


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## Vann (14 Jun 2011)

Alf":1whln1ce said:


> And methinks the #43 drive-by was _too_ subtle - next time remember to *meep-meep* as you go by... :wink:


He only said he's used a #43, not that he owns one. He probably broke into someones tool shed to do so...

:lol: Cheers, Vann.


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## dunbarhamlin (14 Jun 2011)

Hehehe. Nope, just into the piggy bank. It did need some work on the skate, but following some excellent tuning tips from BB quite a while back, it works a treat. HighwayMen, Cutthroats & Extortionists even charged the properly reduced rate when it arrived.

My only remaining affliction is an unhealthy regard for DT saws, but even that hasn't been fed for quite some time (the last a Teutonic plum)


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## Henry Disston (14 Jun 2011)

I've had a bunch of combo planes and plow planes and my favorite is the Stanley #45. Alf has convinced me the #405 is superior but I've never seen one in the wild.  Plowing grooves is a pretty easy task and many planes can do it well. A #50 is good, the #043 is really good for small work, etc. but the #45 is the one I grab first. It can do a more widths than most, and does a decent job on dados and tongue and groove joints.


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## Alf (14 Jun 2011)

AndyT":3fa0odnf said:


> If you have blades whose side notches are in the wrong place or don't fit it's easy enough to saw and file new notches or adjust to cope with the difference between the 45/405 skinny pin and the 050 spokeshave style threaded adjuster with a wide ring. I have some orphaned blades from an 044 which now have grooves in the back and notches in the sides and will fit wherever I put them.


Well yeah, but honestly, depth adjusters are so over-rated is it worth the trouble? Presumably, but not for me.

Okay, so am I the only one wondering why no-one's suggested a dedicated 6mm wooden plow - obviously I can't owing to my firmly held belief that metal ploughs and combination planes are The Best Thing Ever and Every Home Should Have One (Or Three). Dunno if an adjustable fence is required or not, but that's not _too_ difficult. Niche market for Philly perhaps? C'mon chaps, another tool requirement opportunity here going begging. Tsk, this forum isn't what it was... :wink:


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## Fat ferret (14 Jun 2011)

Hi, I am new, well new to ukworkshop, although I'm not really that new and have been lurking for sometime :wink: . See I am already making use of the wee face facility  .

I recently bought a record 050 which is a copy of the stanley 50 if I understand correctly. I am quite impressed with it, seems to do a good job providing you take your time. The only problem is the blades are a bit crumbly maybe grinding them to a steeper angle would help :?: Currently 25 degrees.

Ahh help can't make faces :!:  the disable smilies option remains un-ticked, what am I doing wrong?


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## Richard T (14 Jun 2011)

Richard T wrote:
There are a few differences the main one being the notches in the cutters are in different places. I mean the notches that the lip of the threaded wheel adjuster fits into. 
The record has its cutters notched in the side and the stanley across the back face.

Alf wrote:
T'other way about, Richard.

T'aint .... at least half t'aint .... It's far more stupid than that. What I did there was assume I had a Stanley. (homer) 

Just checked; what I actually have is a Record 50c which has the slot -in -the -side cutters and a RECORD 044 which has the straight across slots. So there we are, Record incompatible with Record. The 044 had been moth - balled as I prefer the 50c.


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## Dissolve (14 Jun 2011)

Anyone know where I can find a Rcord 050c? 

I can find a multitude of Stanley 50's but no Record 50C's


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## Vann (14 Jun 2011)

Fat ferret":14p3thtl said:


> Ahh help can't make faces :!:  the disable smilies option remains un-ticked, what am I doing wrong?


They're coming through okay on my PC.



Fat ferret":14p3thtl said:


> I recently bought a record 050... The only problem is the blades are a bit crumbly maybe grinding them to a steeper angle would help :?: Currently 25 degrees.


Alf sez 35° single bevel - i.e no secondary or micro-bevel (though I think that's for curved cutters).

Cheers, Vann.


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## Dissolve (14 Jun 2011)

Whats the difference betwen a 50 and a 50s, "Nigel" has a 50s for £20 he's offered to me. Just not sure what the difference is! aha
Cheers


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## AndyT (14 Jun 2011)

dissolve":1ei209g9 said:


> Whats the difference betwen a 50 and a 50s, "Nigel" has a 50s for £20 he's offered to me. Just not sure what the difference is! aha
> Cheers




This page: http://www.oldtools.co.uk/tools/planes_scrapers/plough.planes/plough.planes.pg1.php seems to show that the 50s was a cheaper option which left out some of the cutters - 8 instead of 17 - meaning that as sold, it was only a plough, and to make it a combination plane you would need to buy beading cutters separately.


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## Alf (15 Jun 2011)

dissolve":k6cb7bsj said:


> Whats the difference betwen a 50 and a 50s, "Nigel" has a 50s for £20 he's offered to me. Just not sure what the difference is! aha
> Cheers


I believe I answered that one right at the start of the thread... Mate, are you actually reading any of the answers at all? Because the pretty consistent message is that any of the plough or combi planes will do the job you want so it doesn't matter _what_ you get.


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## Fat ferret (15 Jun 2011)

Cheers Vann that makes more sense, will try 35 degrees for the plough blades. Smilies are working now  .


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