# Beginner question - plate turning



## Chris152 (26 Dec 2017)

I found a copy of Hoadley's _Understanding Wood_ under the Christmas tree yesterday, and reading through some of it I realised that I need to learn to use a lathe. I used to throw and turn fairly large ceramic plates when I was younger and I want to learn to do that with wood. SO:

1. Can anyone recommend anywhere I can go to get some experience in using a lathe near Cowbridge, South Wales? (I searched online and the nearest club/ centre that still exists seems to be Bristol?) 

2. What kind of lathe would be suited to turning plates/ low bowls up to around 45/ 50 cm diameter? I searched online and there's talk of bowl-turning lathes as opposed to spindle lathes, but I can't find that distinction in the shops. 

3. Do I need to think about chip extraction or dust extraction, or is it all about ventilating face mask/ protection? And can these things be sited outdoors under cover or is that just a mistake?

So, in a nutshell, I know nothing but have an ambition to learn - if there's a good weblink that would save your time replying, please post it!

Thanks for any advice/ thoughts

Chris


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## Dave Brookes (26 Dec 2017)

Chris,
Vale Woodturners meet at The Reading Rooms in Bovilston which doesn’t look far from you, details can be found on the AWGB Website. Before you spend any hard earned money, go along and talk to the members (most clubs will allow ‘newbies’ a few visit free of charge) look at the club’s equipment and possibly have a go or watch very intently.
There are numerous aspects to consider wrt personal Health & Safety so please take note of them, in particular remember that you lungs are for breathing and not for filtering wood dust.
Having said all that, welcome to the addictive world of wood turning.

Dave


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## Chris152 (26 Dec 2017)

Brilliant - thanks Dave. I did check the AWGB site but only looked under 'Training'. That's just up the road from here and I'm free Tuesday evenings, so perfect. 

Thanks again

Chris


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Dec 2017)

As always .................... buy yourself a newer copy of this - http://www.waterstonesmarketplace.com/b ... &hs=Submit

As a above - don't spend until you've a little more knowledge, you might end up up with shelves full of first class, useful equipment .......... that's first class usefull equipment for someone else, but not for you.


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## Chris152 (26 Dec 2017)

Thank you, Phil - a copy's on it's way! Chris


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## CHJ (26 Dec 2017)

Chris152":3ph4c5n4 said:


> 2. What kind of lathe would be suited to turning plates/ low bowls up to around 45/ 50 cm diameter? I searched online and there's talk of bowl-turning lathes as opposed to spindle lathes, but I can't find that distinction in the shops.


You don't need a 'bowl lathe' to turn platters, with smaller bed clearance lathes you need one that has swivelling or sliding* headstock to allow clearance for larger diameter. * the latter has positional and access requirements.

I turned these:-





on this







Chris152":3ph4c5n4 said:


> 3. Do I need to think about chip extraction or dust extraction, or is it all about ventilating face mask/ protection? And can these things be sited outdoors under cover or is that just a mistake?


Most certainly to all the above, extracting to outside the shop is an ideal for dust safety but can have a heat loss penalty in winter.

Expect to spend at least as much as your lathe on dust control and PPE if you are to get anywhere near industry HSE recommended/mandatory levels of protection.


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## Chris152 (26 Dec 2017)

Ok, thanks CHJ - I'll look out for prices on a swivel or sliding head lathe. 

On the extraction/ outside site, I meant - could the lathe be sited outside under cover? In which case, would a face mask extractor be sufficient? A friend has a wood yard and has large saw and machinery in open-sided barns and doesn't seem to have a problem - my garage/ workshop's getting full and it might be an option? (Is yours located outside? It looks so in the photo?)

Cheers,

Chris


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## nev (26 Dec 2017)

A specific bowl turning lathe has no bed and therefore no tailstock, so you cannot turn items between centres e.g. spindles and anything fine that requires support from both ends.
The limiting factor of 'ordinary ' lathes when it comes to bowl turning is the spindle height above the bed, so if e.g. a lathe has a distance of 6" above the bed, the largest bowl/ plate you could turn would be under 12". 

from http://www.recordpower.co.uk/magazine/p ... ide/id/174

_The advantage of a swivel head is to increase the capacity of the lathe so that you are not restricted to the swing over the bed and also to give greater access to the workpiece. Left handed turners in particular will find a lathe with a swivel head essential in order to avoid working awkwardly over the lathe bed. If required, optional bowl rests are available to make the most of the larger capacities that swivelling heads offer.
Some lathes feature a fixed headstock and an outboard turning facility (turning from the opposite end of the headstock than is usual, to gain more capacity) but outboard turning requires a host of left-hand thread accessories to be purchased._

An example of an affordable swivel head lathe would be the Record Power CL range

Union graduate (in bowl mode)






RP swivel head lathe






edit: CHJ beat me to it


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## CHJ (26 Dec 2017)

Chris152":2fha4j5p said:


> Ok, thanks CHJ - I'll look out for prices on a swivel or sliding head lathe.
> 
> On the extraction/ outside site, I meant - could the lathe be sited outside under cover? In which case, would a face mask extractor be sufficient? A friend has a wood yard and has large saw and machinery in open-sided barns and doesn't seem to have a problem - my garage/ workshop's getting full and it might be an option? (Is yours located outside? It looks so in the photo?)
> 
> ...



My Lathe is not outside, that image of one of my old lathes was just taken outside when it was up for sale.

My extraction system is in a covered enclosure outside of the workshop. (mini lean-to shed)

In UK climate I would suggest that it is totally impractical to house a modern lathe outside a dry and warm (rust free) environment.


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## Chris152 (26 Dec 2017)

CHJ":2idukl9k said:


> In UK climate I would suggest that it is totally impractical to house a modern lathe outside a dry and warm (rust free) environment.



Ok, I can reorganise to fit one in - but, is it chip or dust extraction that I need? I have dust extraction for my bandsaw but no chip extraction - and they're pretty large units for chips, too. Would a dust deputy type thing between the lvhp extractor work (I plan to buy a Numatic NVD750 in the near future), or does it need to be hvlp? 

I really appreciate everyone's replies - I'm already getting a clearer picture of what I'll need to get sorted.


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## CHJ (26 Dec 2017)

Because the dust dispersion when turning and sanding is so wide you need HVLP air to entrain as much of the dust as possible away from you, (and appropriate shielding to concentrate its entrapment) Chip extraction is secondary, if you are lucky you will see about 10% chip entrapment at the chuck.

Your intention to turn larger diameter items is a scenario indicating the need for higher volume air movement and more complex entrapment.


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## Chris152 (26 Dec 2017)

High volume extraction could be a problem with space - I'm struggling to picture my little workshop with both lathe and extractor, without compromising the rest of the setup I have and really want to keep. Would it be possible to mount the lathe and stand on a base that allowed me to wheel it outside under cover to use (it's a fairly level run), storing it inside, and if so would a face mask with air filter be sufficient to work healthily? I just checked the weight of some lathes and they don't seem so heavy. 

I guess the question I face before I start trying to learn is, is it feasible for me to get, store and use a lathe...


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## CHJ (26 Dec 2017)

Almost anything is possible, whether it's at all practical is another matter.

Personally I find it a constant quest to reduce the variables and maximise the permanence of my installation so that the system is prepped when I leave it and 'all systems go' as soon as I set foot in the shed.


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## Chris152 (27 Dec 2017)

Well, I've had a reply from the Vale Woodturners and I'm going along to the next meeting! Thanks again for recommending, Dave.

I spent a couple of hours looking into lathes etc this morning, and it looks like one with a full range of speeds is good for turning larger things - which seems to just about double the price. So a Record CL4 or Coronet at just short of £1000 (with stand, for the CL4) - would that be a good choice? I'm sure it's a lot of machine for someone who's never turned with wood but I don't want to have to buy twice and have some clarity as to what I want to make. 

And would this work for extraction?
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-tr ... tor-508483
It only filters to 1 micron but that seems to be the best I can find/ imagine paying for.
edit: actually, this extractor looks a better deal: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... eal-717658

The combined price is eye-watering, and obviously I'm going to have to be sure it's worth laying out the money before I get into turning - but it's probably good at this stage to have a sense of costs before I get too hooked!

Thanks

Chris


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## Blockplane (28 Dec 2017)

You have the Cardiff branch of Axminster close at hand. Find out when the turning demonstrations are on, good chance to talk not only to the demonstrators, but to fellow woodturners. I think you are allowed to play on some of the display machines?


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Dec 2017)

Chris, another option of course is to keep an eye out for something half decent second hand, it doesn't need to be your ideal lathe but if you buy at a sensible price you can shift it on without losing much - once they're used they're used.


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## Chris152 (28 Dec 2017)

The more I think about it, the more that's perhaps the way to go. If I found something with enough clearance to allow me to develop skills to turn up to a 12 inch plate, then it would be time to move on. The thing about electronic speed control and swivel head is only really about the ambition to do large, potentially wobbly pieces and that's got to be a way down the line. Something like the Axminster lathe that recently sold on the forum for £150 could have been perfect! (hammer) 

Thanks Phil.


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## CHJ (28 Dec 2017)

Chris152":2l38r21e said:


> The more I think about it, the more that's perhaps the way to go. If I found something with enough clearance to allow me to develop skills to turn up to a 12 inch plate, then it would be time to move on. The thing about electronic speed control and swivel head is only really about the ambition to do large, potentially wobbly pieces and that's got to be a way down the line. Something like the Axminster lathe that recently sold on the forum for £150 could have been perfect! (hammer)
> 
> Thanks Phil.




By no means an ideal world but it's surprising what's possible with care on a very basic setup.


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## Chris152 (28 Dec 2017)

CHJ":1a6uozd9 said:


> By no means an ideal world but it's surprising what's possible with care on a very basic setup.



Thanks for the link, Chas - that looks a hell of a lump of wood to work with, and a great result. It must be tricky turning that deep inside a bowl while maintaining support? Tbh I wouldn't even know how to set about splitting the log in the first place - lots to learn here! 

I'm pretty convinced that a cheaper, used lathe is the way to start but need to find one that'll fit on a home-made bench (so I can store a vac and other stuff underneath) and has reasonable clearance for plates. 

Thanks again

C

edit: whatever lathe I get, I really want decent dust extraction from the outset. Would you say this coupled with a cowl is suitable? 
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... eal-717658
It moves 2000m3, which looks good to me.


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## Dave Brookes (29 Dec 2017)

Chris, before you go spending hard earned cash at Axminster, check if Vale Woodturners have a Club account with them, I set one up for the Didcot Club and there was 5% off lathes and 10% off accessories. You may get your club subs for the year back with one purchase! Just a thought.

Dave


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## Chris152 (29 Dec 2017)

Blockplane":1q6lmqtn said:


> You have the Cardiff branch of Axminster close at hand. Find out when the turning demonstrations are on, good chance to talk not only to the demonstrators, but to fellow woodturners. I think you are allowed to play on some of the display machines?



I missed your post earlier, Blockplane. I went into look at the machines in Axminster yesterday, no demos for a little while but it was useful - I was surprised how long some lathes are (eg the AWVSL1000), way more than I need for a plate! Their Trade ones offer shorter versions but don't have a swivel head til you pay much more. 

I also went to Data Tools which is nearby to look at the Records and they had the Coronet on display - like the CL3/ 4, they're shorter which is better for a small workshop.

If I could find a used one with the right specs I'd buy it now, but til then I think I'm just going to look for something cheap with some clearance to learn on.

Thanks

C


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## Chris152 (29 Dec 2017)

Dave Brookes":3rgd6938 said:


> Chris, before you go spending hard earned cash at Axminster, check if Vale Woodturners have a Club account with them, I set one up for the Didcot Club and there was 5% off lathes and 10% off accessories. You may get your club subs for the year back with one purchase! Just a thought.
> 
> Dave



Good point, Dave - I'll ask next week, and if they don't have the arrangement i'll suggest it! C


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## Tony_A (30 Dec 2017)

If you want information on dust extraction I would suggest that you have a look at Bill Pentz's site.
I don't have permission to post links so you can google "Bill Pentz cyclone".

Another good resource is the Australian woodworking forum which has a sub forum dedicated to dust extraction. Have a look at the thread by Bob L describing modifications to a 2 hp dust extractor to get adequate air flow. Google "the generic 2 hp dc" 

Tony


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## Chris152 (30 Dec 2017)

Thanks Tony - I'll check both out. Just out of interest, do you build dust cyclones in the opposite direction down your way?  

I've been looking on the usual sources and can't find a lathe that fits the bill yet. Patience, I know. But saw this in Axminster a couple of days ago:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... the-505021
Electronic speed control and 12 inch diameter, maybe I could sell it on after 6 months (once I have one, I'll work pretty hard to learn to use it) for a £100/ 150 loss. Would the chuck etc fit the Record CL4 if I upgraded to that in due course? That said, it is a bit odd that the controls on the Record would be hidden behind a big bit of wood in case of emergency stop, as some of you have noted.

The rationale for buying twice would be that with a cheaper lathe to start I'd find out if I was any good at it and if I like it without too much outlay. Plus, weighing just 40 kg I could easily wheel it outside when using and delay buying more dust extraction if I wanted to go that way.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Dec 2017)

This is an easy, cheap way of sorting out an emergency stop if you can't reach the switch with the head turned (excuse clutter) -






The power comes in through the switched cable outlet on the far end where it can be switched off if necessary when long hole boring then on through the switch in the middle which can be reached easily no matter where the head. It has to be restarted at the head switch, but restarting it isn't the problem.


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## nev (30 Dec 2017)

Chris152":217yoxau said:


> ...Would the chuck etc fit the Record CL4 if I upgraded to that in due course? ...



probably not. 

The spindle thread size (that the chuck fits to) could be one of half a dozen common sizes. Unfortunately the spindle size may change across the range of a single manufacturer too, so you can't say Axminister's have X and RP have Y thread.

You can however buy chucks with threaded inserts so if you change lathes you simply buy an insert to suit the new one, a lot cheaper than replacing the chuck and jaws etc.


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## CHJ (30 Dec 2017)

Chris152":3atfpz9w said:


> Electronic speed control and 12 inch diameter, maybe I could sell it on after 6 months (once I have one, I'll work pretty hard to learn to use it) .



How many platters over 12" diam. do you envision making?
What are you going to use them for? or Where are you going to sell them to?
Where are you going to source suitable blanks from?
How much do you envision having to pay for the blanks?

Think you need to think hard about the above questions before you make large diameter pieces your rational for selecting a lathe.


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## Chris152 (30 Dec 2017)

Thanks all.

Phil - well, that's one less thing to worry about, looks like a good solution. 

Nev - that's good to know - it makes a stronger case for skipping a new one to learn on and then buying another new one possibly with different size attachments. 

Chas - I think I can answer those questions ok (I'm sure you don't need to know my answers, but they go from pretty certain (a friend is a tree surgeon, but I'm not remotely pretending to know what to do with the wood!) to probably (I know the art market reasonably, but that one's never anything like certain)). 

I really appreciate all your guidance in this. 

C


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## nev (30 Dec 2017)

If its any help at all, and you go the used route...

I've only ever had the one lathe, a Record Power CL2 36x18 (an older blue one). These lathes have two round bars as the bed and you can, if limited for space, cut the bars down and make it as short as you like. The gentleman I inherited from used it in a 6x4 shed along with all the other paraphernalia associated with turning. To make life a little easier he chopped the bars by about a foot so my 36" bed is now only 24" but thats more than I'll ever need. The 18 in the model number is the maximum recommendation for diameter (with the head swivelled through 90º ). The thread on the headstock is 3/4 x 16. So it may be worth keeping an eye out for a used CL2 or 3. It will cover everything you want to do as long as your not strapping tree trunks to it 

This is an old listing on eBay for a CL3 36x30 which looks the same as my CL2 but probably has a bigger motor to deal with the 30" max diameter. Both that one and mine have the optional bowl turning attachment (replaces the standard support at the head stock end)






So you could turn everything from tiny to large. Everything shown in my 'not a blog' was turned on my CL2 including.. 






to this (12 or 14 inches is as large as I've ventured)






all with same tools too.


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## Tony_A (30 Dec 2017)

Chris152":1t6gee5e said:


> Thanks Tony - I'll check both out. Just out of interest, do you build dust cyclones in the opposite direction down your way?



We have to because motors spin the other way down here.

I wasn't in a hurry when I was looking for my lathe and watched the used machine sales for about 6 months before getting a good reasonable priced machine.

Tony


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Dec 2017)

So you build anticyclones?


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## Chris152 (31 Dec 2017)

That's really useful info, Nev - if I do get one of those I'd definitely look to cut down the bars. I've seen a couple of CL2/3 lathes on ebay but they're so far to travel and I'd want to see it working/ collect, but will keep searching. 

One thing I've been wondering - if you're turning a plate or anything fairly wide, do you need to change speed as you move from the rim to the centre on account of the changing speed of the wood at each point? Working with clay (which I haven't done for years) I'd change the speed of the wheel to maintain more-or-less constant rate of removal of clay. 

That looks a beautiful bowl!

oh - and searching around the net this morning, I found this:




but can't find one of those nearby on ebay either.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Dec 2017)

Basically you run them as fast as the blank will allow you to. Variable speed is good if you are working out of balance stuff - people who haven't got it tend to think it's just there for speed and simplicity of gear change, but the best thing with it is you can vary the speed as you work. E.g. something might be out of balance at 400rpm and 600rpm but perfect at 500rpm, and two or three cuts later out of balance again so you can raise it or lower it a little again and repeat. Platters don't tend to be drastically out of balance of course.


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## Chris152 (31 Dec 2017)

Ah, right - I've seen videos describing advancing the speed with unbalanced blocks and then feathering back once they start to vibrate, but didn't realise you run as fast as the blank will allow. Some run from 0-800, others start at 400 - what is the advantage of the variable speed from 0-400? I like the idea as I could paint banding on at very low speed with that, but guess that's not the reason the 0-400 would be helpful to a woodturner.

All of which said, I get to go to the club Tuesday so maybe things'll become more real then - very excited!

Thanks

C


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## CHJ (31 Dec 2017)

Sanding, texturing, alignment checking, there are many reasons to run slowly once you get into constructions and artistic turning and away from basic bulk material removal.

Spinning defective stock for the more decorative work requires considerable circumspection if you are not to have it 'Bomb' burst in your face, so high speeds can be very dangerous.

Look at this guide and the G forces involved if bits fly off.


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## Chris152 (31 Dec 2017)

Those figures are pretty sobering, Chas - I'm sure starting out with stable wood's important, as is staying out of the line of fire and safety kit. I would like to think I could move onto more fragile wood once I get proficient enough - I saw one beautiful piece on your site and can only think that working with 'defective' wood isn't remotely easy. 

I'd been wondering about learning the basics in the most simple and safe fashion and then maybe doing a short course with someone who really knows what they're doing to build skills - could anyone suggest someone in striking distance of Cardiff? I wouldn't mind an hour or so drive each way, each day.


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## Dave Brookes (31 Dec 2017)

Chris, wait until you have been to the club meeting, if it’s anything like the Didcot club, there will possibly be a few members who will say “come over to my workshop for a few hours” or there may well be someone who does training. There doesn’t appear to be any Registered Professional Turners close to you but you will find a complete list and location map on the AWGB website.
Have a great evening on Tuesday!

Dave


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## Chris152 (31 Dec 2017)

Sounds good, thanks Dave - I'll let you know how I got on. 

C


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## Chris152 (4 Jan 2018)

Well, I went along Tuesday and really enjoyed looking around and speaking to people, but didn't get as far as trying a lathe - they were all in use by the time I got there. But just watching and talking, I learned a lot. 

My copy of Rowley arrived yesterday and I'm already about half way through it - what a great book. Having watched this link (from the turning forum links)
http://www.finewoodworking.com/2014/02/ ... ng-catches
I started to wonder just how strong my resolve to learn turning is! But Rowley goes through in detail the causes of such catches and understanding better made it all seem slightly less frightening. But even Rowley seems to alternate between saying how dangerous situations easily arise, on one hand, and the need to relax the whole body and mind while turning - not easily done for a beginner, I guess!

Anyway, I've arrived at this point - I think I'm not going to buy a lathe yet, but am going to join the club, get some guidance and practice on a fairly slow burn, and when I'm ready take the plunge I'll buy a lathe. If I can find someone nearby to give me a day or two of one-to-one training, I'll do that too. I didn't realise how remote turning with wood is from turning clay and now look back over this thread and my ambition to throw large plates, and realise how naive I was!

Thanks all,

C


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## Dave Brookes (4 Jan 2018)

Chris, so glad you found the evening really useful and interesting. I agree, the Keith Rowley book is a mine of infomation and so is Two in one Woodturning by Phil Irons (on Amazon).
A good choice on hanging back before you take the purchasing plunge. There is so much to pick up that is not obvious at first and talking to the club members will reveal a lot of these.

Dave


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## Chris152 (10 Jan 2018)

Thanks Dave, I'll look out for a second hand copy of the book once I've got beyond the very basics. Meanwhile, there's a very strong draw to get something to practice on right now! I keep looking for second hand but haven't found a suitable one yet. Meanwhile, does anyone know the relative merits of the Record CL4 and new Coronet? I saw the latter last week in a shop and like the look of it, but I also like the very slow speeds of the CL4. How come Record are doing two lathes so similar in price and stats? I'm sure I'm missing something...

Thanks

C


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## marcros (10 Jan 2018)

the capacity on the cl4 is greater- up to 762mm, compared with 533mm 

if you click on the lathe, you can compare it to the other http://www.recordpower.co.uk/product/he ... /4#reviews


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## Chris152 (10 Jan 2018)

I'd not seen that comparison - thanks marcros. The most striking difference to someone who knows nothing is the weight, but the coronet has a more powerful motor. What's outboard turning on the coronet that the CL4 doesn't have? Apart from that (and the value of a spindle lock) I think I can see the advantages and otherwise of the rest. 

Given how similar they are in price/ specs (if that's true), what would make you choose one over the other? (Apart from the obvious length/ swing.)


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Jan 2018)

If you're up in that price range Styles and Bates have the Nova 1624 for £1,100 with a free Nova G3 chuck.


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## Chris152 (11 Jan 2018)

Thanks Phil - that looks a great machine, but has no variable speed control? The club I'm going to has all vs lathes and they seem so flexible. 

I know this is like someone having their first driving lesson and checking out the prices of sports cars, but at some point I'm going to have to buy something...

Cheers

C


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## Dalboy (11 Jan 2018)

Chris152":14gu4krh said:


> Well, I went along Tuesday and really enjoyed looking around and speaking to people, but didn't get as far as trying a lathe - they were all in use by the time I got there. But just watching and talking, I learned a lot.
> 
> My copy of Rowley arrived yesterday and I'm already about half way through it - what a great book. Having watched this link (from the turning forum links)
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/2014/02/ ... ng-catches
> ...



Yes there are many dangers as in many thing, but with the correct approach and some correct knowledge they can become less of a problem. That is like so many things in life. Crossing a road is dangerous but with care can be done safely.
You have taken the first steps 1 By asking questions. 2 Joining a club. 3 Reading a good reference material. So now carry on keep asking and attending the club learn the correct way to do things in a safe manor you will get so much enjoyment out of the hobby


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## Chris152 (15 Jan 2018)

Thanks Dalboy - I tend to be pretty risk averse when it comes to tools that rotate at high speed - my track saw caused me anxiety til I'd used it a couple of times, and have the track and the wood before the saw clamped down on a table I built for that reason. I'm sure it'll be the same with a lathe in time.

I've been searching the net and have seen a Record CL1 with RP electronic variable speed starting at £400. I wouldn't see it as a buy and sell on in the near future type of thing at that price - is the CL1 a good lathe, or with less power than the CL3 would it struggle with larger bowls? I also saw a yellow Perform like the one Chas posted above, but realised at just under 1.7 metres it was unlikely to fit (without building a shed for the bikes) and not for cutting down!


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## Chris152 (19 Jan 2018)

I see Record have events coming up at Yandles and nearer home. I bought my bandsaw at one of these at a decent discount - do they normally discount lathes at these events, too? After many hours searching, I think I'm going to go ahead and get a new CL4 or Coronet Herald, and any saving's a bonus...


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## Cordy (9 Feb 2018)

Record have put a new video out for the Record Coronet Herald

LINK

Had mine for a few weeks and well pleased with it


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