# Mdf Toybox.



## Gerome (24 Jan 2007)

Hi everyone,i was just wondering if any of you could give me some advice,i am thinking of making my daughter a toybox out of MDF (its going to be painted) and i was thinking of buttjointing it,now the thing im wondering about is what is the best way of joining them,should i use biscuits or should i use screws and filler?What do you guys think?
Also,what would be the best thickness of MDF to use?
Anyway,i would be gratefull of any thoughts on the matter,thanks.


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## DomValente (24 Jan 2007)

Probably 18mm, either, or both, as it's probably going to get some rough treatment, both.
I have just used screws(preferably MDF screws, less chance of splitting) but don't go to near the corners, top edges, as that's where most splitting will occur if you don't make the pilot holes large enough.
You could use glue as well along the edges and then reinforce with the screws.
If as you say it will be painted, sand the edges with 80 grit until fairly smooth then paint with a 5/1 mix pva and water, wipe excess from the sides, but not the edges and leave to dry thoroughly. when dry sand well with 120 grit or even ooo 3m pad until very smooth, this will give you an excellent surface for your finish and so avoid the furry effect toy would get on cot edges.

Good luck 

Dom


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## woodbloke (24 Jan 2007)

Gerome - good stuff from Dom, I might be inclined to use something like 15mm but at the end of the day and all things considered, it don't make allot of difference - Rob


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## wizer (24 Jan 2007)

18mm will make the end result quite heavy, i'd consider 12mm


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## Offcut (24 Jan 2007)

To be honest I would probably make it out of pine if you can get some laminated sheets, it would make the joints a bit stronger and as it is to be painted shouldn't make much difference.
I'm not a fan of MDF if you have to screw into endgrain.

Andy


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## engineer one (24 Jan 2007)

i'd look for 12mm too, but maybe of more importance is the way in which you sort the lid.

for a small kid, you need to think about how the lid is going to be kept up, 
and also how it is going to fit on the top of the box.

whilst a lump of rope will stop the lid going too far back, you need some grommets between the lid and the top of the box, thicker than the fingers of a grown up i think. i also wonder whether an outside apron might be a good idea. again to stop the fingers being pushed into harms' way. :roll: 

might be safer to think about doors at the front, and no lifting lid.  
at if the doors pinch, the fingers will be easy to pull out. :lol: 


personally i would use biscuits and some screws between them .

paul :wink:


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## ajbell (24 Jan 2007)

I also want to make a toybox.

From what people are saying are screws into the edges
of MDF sheet OK? (avoiding too close to corners)

Andy


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## DomValente (24 Jan 2007)

Yes, but remember that children will jump and sit on boxes that's why I advocate the thicker MDF. Twice when fitting childrens bedrooms for clients I used lighter material and the result was not a happy on as I was called back to repair the toy boxes.
Since those unfortunate incidents I have used 18 mm on several occasions and not had a problem, yes it's overkill but as I say kids will be kids.

Dom


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## engineer one (24 Jan 2007)

ok lets throw my small experiences. i have a number of bookshelves that were made years ago of mdf with biscuits supported by glue and screws.

i drill into the side and end after having put them together and clamping him, and put the screws between the biscuits. remember that mdf is a pressed material in many ways, and can break in layers if it gets damp,
so it makes sense not to screw too near the corners. the most important thing about mdf and screws are the following

1/ buy spax or similar screws, like reiser 
2/ make sure you use a proper drill and countersink combination.
i use the snappy system from trend, but in the past have used the items sold by makita which have a chuck with a removable drill and counter sink bit, plus a screw bit . 

it appears from recent research that if you do not drill into the wood you are fixing into you may well get a small break out on the join, which will make it more difficult to get properly joined corners. 

paul :wink:


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## engineer one (24 Jan 2007)

dom you are right about what kids will do, and i would guess few kids actually move them around, its the folks isn't ??

however my concern is the lid, and it dropping on little fingers  

paul :wink:


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## RogerM (24 Jan 2007)

Agree with all of the above. Perhaps you could also glue a triangular fillet down the inside of each corner to beef them up? Just a thought.


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## DomValente (24 Jan 2007)

Good point Paul,
On a couple I've used the piston type closer,not great.
On one a slide shut lid, not great either, kids can't work them.
So now I don't put a lid on and tell the client,"let them fill it doesn't it look like a story book box", and they ooh and ahh and I run away.
Haven't tried the soft shut pistons, but don't think that would work.

Dom


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## engineer one (24 Jan 2007)

dom, i agree, my idea is always with stuff for kids to play with, KISS.

keep it simple stupid :twisted: 

i think doors are safer, and also allow for a stronger box.
:roll: 
paul :wink:


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## wizer (24 Jan 2007)

i think i'd be inclined to make an internal frame out of pine and then 'clad' it with the mdf ? you could then use 6mm mdf


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## Paul Chapman (24 Jan 2007)

Gerome":1xg5qojx said:


> what is the best way of joining them,should i use biscuits or should i use screws and filler?



For MDF I've always preferred glue and biscuits rather than screws. I find that glue and biscuits gives a very strong joint and I've never had one fail.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Michael7 (24 Jan 2007)

I bought the wood recently for building a large toybox for our two children as we would like to get part of our conservatory back again and im wondering what way i can make the top as accidents WILL happen. Having a top that lifts up is the easiest way for tidying, lift up the lid and throw everything in. I was thinking of having the top as a sheet of mdf that slides forwards and hangs on the front (kinda like the small TV screens you see on dashboard car stereos, the ones that shoot out and hang down). 

I made a box lately for the recyclable milk cartons, cardboard, etc using mdf, screws and glue and even though I spray painted it and used cup washers it looks cheap, suppose its only for rubbish. So this toybox is going to be made with a pine frame and 8mm mdf for the panels so having the sliding lid might be possible by having it run along the frame somehow.
Any suggestions or criticisms welcome!


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## spadge (24 Jan 2007)

Hi Jerome,

Made one (about 2 ft by 3ft by 2 ft high) out of 12mm MDF and with an MDF lid and base and it was pretty heavy and strong enough.

Used biscuits and glue to join the corners (no screws) and the mdf base was screwed and glued to inch square battens screwed and glued around the inside.
Hinged the lid with a piano hinge and I lipped the lid with softwood to take the screws of the piano hinge. I used some rope to stop the lid swinging open.

Made it 12 years ago and it survived two kids and use as a platform for painting ceilings. Can't post any pics becuase it went to the tip last yaer. Didn't break even when I dropped it in the skip.


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## seaco (24 Jan 2007)

Biscuits and glue is the way to go with MDF I think, or another idea is using a box joint this pic shows what I mean and 12mm would be fine unless the toy box is really large...







I know it's a drawer but you see what I mean, this joint was done with a simple jig on a table saw...


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## engineer one (24 Jan 2007)

eric, why not just make the lid totally removeable so that at the end of the evening you guys, (well ok your wife :twisted: ) can then put it back once the kids are upstairs.

i think a slide out will cause as many problems,. cause someone is someday going to sit on it when it is slid out, and it will break, or tip over.

the simple way (hahahahahahahaha) is to make the lid totally removeable.

that's why i prefer doors. just like with window seats, doors are much more practical, and safer.
:twisted: 
paul :wink:


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## Michael7 (24 Jan 2007)

Thanks Paul,
I was thinking of a removable lid too. Its just the fact of having to put the lid somewhere when the kids want their toys out, maybe it could slide underneath? The idea with the top hanging down meant the children could take it off themselves but as you said they could try to sit on it or use it as a ledge to try to get in. :lol:

Edit:

No, if the lid was to slide underneath the base would need to be wider than the lid.


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## Scrit (24 Jan 2007)

As probably one of the few here who's ever batch manufactured these here's my two pennorth. 12mm is not strong enough to withstand a good kicking, 15mm may be OK but is relatively uncommon thickness, so I'd plump for 18mm. The extra weight makes the object less moveable when the little dears decide to use it as a climbing frame. I used to dowel and glue construct which produced a square, rigid and extremely strong carcass well capable of withstanding racking motions, but failing that I'd biscuit joint. Avoid screws and pins/nails as far as possible as they can become a danger to children in the event of a breakage. Paints should be to the appropriate child-safe standard (search the site as I've put this in replies in the past) and lids require anti-slam or child-safe stays - try Ikea, Woodfit or Isaac Lord.

Scrit


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## engineer one (24 Jan 2007)

i think you are right about the relative strenghts, scrit, as usual.

however i do think that toy boxes, like all storage, but especially tool boxes soon become too small for their intended use, in particular these days when the kids seem to get new toys everyday :lol: 

so maybe there is something for making a small box which may well 
be adequate in 12mm whilst you discover what is actually needed.

have to say if i were to do things these days and had small kids i would think about a kind of japanese staircase tansu which could lead up to a window, and have storage under neath giving them a play area as well.
 
paul :wink:


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## Scrit (24 Jan 2007)

engineer one":1dpwwf9y said:


> so maybe there is something for making a small box which may well be adequate in 12mm whilst you discover what is actually needed.


All the furniture I designed was the same - it had to withstand my 85kg mass bouncing (gently) up and down on it whilst being held togeher with only half the dowels and no glue. Happy to report that it all did.

If in doubt about the sizing issue, go for a bedding box size as it can then do double duty later in life

Scrit


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## Colin C (24 Jan 2007)

Thanks Scrit

As I was asked by one of my customers to make a toy box and will have a look in Ikea for a stay  

Bonus as I have one down the road from me


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## Gerome (24 Jan 2007)

Hi guys,thanks for all the replies,everybody this site are so helpful,its good that you all take the time to give a newbie advice!
Its given me a lot to think about, different people go for different methods.
As for the lid.i was thinking of hinged with a cut out at the front for the fingers,this seems to be used allot,the only thing i was thinking about was fixing a hinge to end grain MDF?any thoughts?
The other thing is,as i said it will be painted(white),when its finished,my wifes aunt is an artist and will paint a design on it,what type of paint would be best for me to use that could then have a design painted over the top,and what would be best to then seal it?
Thanks again for all the replies and i'm sorry about the extra questions!


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## Fishmat (24 Jan 2007)

You can fix to end grain MDF but for something like a toy box I would not advise it. If you use cranked hinges at least you can get some fixings into the face of the MDF. If you are using thin (15mm or less) it may be best to use small nuts and bolts through the hinge.

The cutout at the front is a great idea but don't stop there. Do the sides as well. If the lid slams down you will have eliminated approx. 70% of possible finger holds.


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## Paul Chapman (24 Jan 2007)

Gerome":bikmqy6f said:


> the only thing i was thinking about was fixing a hinge to end grain MDF?any thoughts?



If I am going to fit conventional hinges and other hardware to MDF, I often lip the MDF with solid wood, using glue and biscuits. Alternatively, if you are able to use the concealed type of hinge like the ones used on kitchen cabinets (they fit into a 35mm hole), they will fit into MDF quite firmly (but you would need to use 18mm MDF for this type of hinge).

Cheers :wink: 

Paul

PS One dodge that you can use when fitting screws into end grain is to drill a hole and glue in a fibre Rawlplug and then screw into that. This also works when doors have been removed several times and the screw holes have become enlarged. Simply drill out the hole a bit larger and glue in a fibre Rawlplug (they come in various diameters and lengths)


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## Freetochat (24 Jan 2007)

I don't know whether it is rumour being passed around, but is it not a requirement that tops have to have slow closing stays to prevent the lid from dropping, and air flow to prevent suffocation on this type of product?


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## Shultzy (24 Jan 2007)

Eric - If you want to put a removable lid safely away, then make the sides and base protrude a couple of inches at the back. Put a groove down each side and then slot the lid down the grooves.


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## engineer one (25 Jan 2007)

still not happy about the lid, but i agree kitchen hinges might well be the way to go.

as for paint, first you must seal the mdf, either with watered down pva, or mdf sealant, which is available from the sheds. b&q etc.

you need a child friendly paint, so would suggest water based,or acrylics that are designed for use in children environments. a roller is a good way to paint mdf. however, i have sprayed and it produces a decent finish.

the advantage of acrylics is that you can paint over it, and then use a water based clear varnish.

paul :wink:


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## Scrit (25 Jan 2007)

Gerome":3q6k92yh said:


> As for the lid.i was thinking of hinged with a cut out at the front for the fingers, this seems to be used a lot, the only thing i was thinking about was fixing a hinge to end grain MDF?any thoughts?


On commesrially-made boxes yes it is but you still need a child-safety closer mechanism to prevent the lid dropping onto heads, etc. As others have said if you use a decent quality serrated tip screw such as Spax or Reisser in conjunction with glue it will hold well, but all the screws are doing is preventing shear breakage after the glue has set - it's the glue which does all the work. BTW MDF has no real grain in the same way as wood



Gerome":3q6k92yh said:


> what type of paint would be best for me to use that could then have a design painted over the top, and what would be best to then seal it?


MDF needs to be sealed BEFORE it's painted with "MDF Sealant" (available form any reputable paint supplier) - at least 2 coats on surfaces with 4 to 6 coats on edges, flatted back between coats with a Scotch grey cloth (Machine Mart, car paint suppliers). The finish shout be capable of taking a decorative paint so needs to be either a matt or semi-matt and decorative work is best done with something like acrylics. Avoid paints manufactured outside of the EU and look for the relevant Child Safe painty spec. - I'd recommend West Country Finishes as a supplier. And as I say there was an extensive thread on this same subject here on this forum about a year ago

We used to attach lids with simple butt hinges - low cost, easy to install and low profile (unlike kitchen hinges which are, incidentally normally sprung - a trap hazard). Never had a return on any of them.



Freetochat":3q6k92yh said:


> I don't know whether it is rumour being passed around, but is it not a requirement that tops have to have slow closing stays to prevent the lid from dropping, and air flow to prevent suffocation on this type of product?


For commercially produced stuff yes it is - technically a toy box might be deemed to come under the Toy Regulations, hence the requirement

Scrit


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## engineer one (25 Jan 2007)

scrit as usual your comments are aposite and properly considered.

my concern with any of these kinds of projects are the old fashioned ones, kids never do what you expect, so anything you can do to protect yourself from their actions has to be good, particularly if you are getting paid for the job, and are thus liable legally.

i accept that kitchen hinges may well not be right, but i do wonder whether cheaper butt hinges are able to withstand the rigours of modern kids who seem less well behaved with their toys. ( or is that what our folks said too :roll: :? )

i think the thing about putting doors on a toy box is that then the kids can actually use it to play within without too many problems of getting lost there, and of course the doors are easier make so that as to stop fingers getting caught where possible, without putting those long plastic strips everywhere.

i do also think there is something to be said for putting a rope handle at each end knotted inside the box. this ensures at least 4 air holes :twisted: 

as for the painting i think we both agree on that (nice to have one agreement with you :lol: :lol: )

paul :wink:


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