# About Time We Had a Mystery Tool



## mudman (24 Apr 2007)

So here's one I picked up in a car boot sale for 50p some time last year.
It's been sitting on my bench for a few months and every time I look at it I wonder what it might be for.
The only thing I can think of is it's some sort of smoothing tool. I did think that it might be a plane float but aren't they triangular?
There does appear to be a maker's mark on it but unfortunately I can't make it out.











So if anyone has any idea, I would love to know.


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## Gary M (24 Apr 2007)

I wondered where my toothbrush got to !! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## dunbarhamlin (25 Apr 2007)

Does look like some sort of float for something that needs a deep groove. Are gun stock floats always round bottomed (guessing so, since barrels tend to be  )

other thought was some sort of repair iron to loosen a hot glue joint.


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## sparky (25 Apr 2007)

i wonder if it is for a sliding dovetail. :-k 

maybe to clean out the bottom...in place of a router plane :?: 

sparky


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## JesseM (25 Apr 2007)

Looks like a heavy duty trowel.


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## DomValente (25 Apr 2007)

Or something used on a loom ?


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## Lord Nibbo (25 Apr 2007)

Swmbo thinks it's for applying glue in sliding dovetails or glue on sheet materials, I think it's some sort of iron.


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## bugbear (25 Apr 2007)

mudman":1bqid3c9 said:


> So here's one I picked up in a car boot sale for 50p some time last year.
> It's been sitting on my bench for a few months and every time I look at it I wonder what it might be for.
> The only thing I can think of is it's some sort of smoothing tool. I did think that it might be a plane float but aren't they triangular?
> There does appear to be a maker's mark on it but unfortunately I can't make it out.
> ...



Hmm. Heavily built, yet clearly single handed, so the build isn't for strength. Does it show signs of being heated - the only reason I can conceive for all that iron is heat retention, possibly for (OLDTOOLS joke) leather work.

BugBear


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## mudman (25 Apr 2007)

Gary M":xye65z7x said:


> I wondered where my toothbrush got to !! :lol: :lol: :lol:



:lol:


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## mudman (25 Apr 2007)

Some good ideas here. Not sure about spreading anything though as I can see the clean-up afterwards being a bit awkward, the 'teeth' are quite close together (couple of mm from memory) and getting residue out from in between might be difficult.

I haven't noted any evidence of it being heated, although I didn't think of looking for it.

I did wonder about leather working, maybe for stretching leather over something or other? But then, wouldn't it be easier to use something with a set of small pins to give a better grip? Unless you don't want it marker perhaps?

Quite frankly, I haven't really got a clue.


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## bugbear (25 Apr 2007)

If you don't mind removing the "patina", the makers name could be very informative.

BugBear


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## mudman (25 Apr 2007)

bugbear":3lhyurir said:


> If you don't mind removing the "patina", the makers name could be very informative.
> 
> BugBear



I think it is partly worn away, but I'll have a look this evening and report back.


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## bugbear (25 Apr 2007)

mudman":oaf0xmnr said:


> bugbear":oaf0xmnr said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't mind removing the "patina", the makers name could be very informative.
> ...



Can't be worse than this one:

http://galootcentral.com/portal/compone ... wotsit.JPG
http://galootcentral.com/portal/compone ... t_logo.JPG

BugBear


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (25 Apr 2007)

It is defintely a handtool. You hold it up against the edge of a board, then run your Stanley #71 router plane at it to create through dovetails.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## mudman (25 Apr 2007)

I've cleaned up the maker's mark and it is clearer than I thought.
It reads:

G. TUMMON (although the T may be a D).
SHEFFIELD

WARRANTED
CAST STEEL

Derek,

Have you seen one of these before?
I can't quite picture your description of how it works. Could you elaborate please?


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## MIGNAL (25 Apr 2007)

Looks like some form of Broaching tool but for what purpose I've absolutely no idea.


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## mudman (26 Apr 2007)

MIGNAL":25q0rg99 said:


> Looks like some form of Broaching tool but for what purpose I've absolutely no idea.



I had to look that one up.
Not sure though, I think the teeth are all the same length, but I will check.


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## MIGNAL (27 Apr 2007)

More answers here:

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbth...&Number=3031792&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=


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## bugbear (27 Apr 2007)

After making allowances for wear and/or corrosion, do the lower "teeth" edges appear sharp?

BTW, I'm not happy with Todd Hughes' idea of octagonal barrel bedding - since the flat is quite large, the octagon that matched it would be HUGE!

Todd's normally right though :-(

BugBear


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## bugbear (27 Apr 2007)

mudman":3tjei85l said:


> I've cleaned up the maker's mark and it is clearer than I thought.
> It reads:
> 
> G. TUMMON (although the T may be a D).
> ...



Searching reveals that Tummon is a common Sheffield name, and Dummon isn't, so we'll go with Tummon

BugBear


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## bugbear (27 Apr 2007)

I have a G Tummon from White's Directory 1901, at No 24, Ditchingham St
but his job is only described as "manager"

A Coal merchant at Park Station called John Tummon.

(all from http://www.historicaldirectories.org)

No "perfect" hit, though.

BugBear


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## mudman (1 May 2007)

Hi guys,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, been a bit busy lately.

Mignal,
Thanks for posting this over the pond, some interesting responses. I never thought of gunmakers. I shall have to ask my brother-in-law next time I see him. He's from over there and apprenticed as a gunsmith so you never know he may have a view.

Bugbear,

No, definitely not sharp, not sure if they ever have been. There are some scratch patterns on the base that appear to be file marks but they go end-to-end and side-to-side.

Took a few measurements tonight to see if that would help.

Dimensions in inches.
Length: 3 1/8 
Width: 1
Narrows to 5/32 on the top.
Teeth: 19/32 long.
1" to the top
All the teeth are uniform in length.

Angles.

Teeth slope backwards at 117 degrees.
Looking at the front end of the tool, left side of the triangle formed is an angle of 60 degrees, right side is 65 degrees.
Interestingly, the whole tool is skewed (if that is the correct term). If you take the front tooth as the baseline, then looking from above, the sides of the tool has rake to the left of 92 degrees from the baseline.


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## mudman (1 May 2007)

Mystery solved.    

Did a bit of Googling after posting the last, and found this.

So looks like our American cousins were on the money.
I'm going to have to show my brother-in-law now and see if he recognises it. :wink: 

Thanks everyone for your help. I'm really glad to know what it is. Now I have to work out what I can do with it, apart from making guns that is. :?


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## mudman (1 May 2007)

Here's another one from the same site: planemaker's float

It looks just like mine but strange looking teeth though.


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## bugbear (2 May 2007)

I don't think that's a planemaker's float... these have been discussed at length, and can still be purchased from LN and C&W.

They look nothing like the tool on the Dutch website (or your tool).

http://www.planemaker.com/sample/floats/fltindex.html

(C & W are experts - if they say these are "proper" floats, they ARE!)

If your tool has never had sharp teeth, I don't see how it can be a cutting tool.

I'm still struggling with the designation. Don't forget that mistaken identification can happen on antique web sites too, either as honest mistakes, or optimistic labelling.

(an amazing number of common files and rasps get labelled as "rare plane making floats")

BugBear


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## mudman (3 May 2007)

bugbear":23m4z88p said:


> I don't think that's a planemaker's float... these have been discussed at length, and can still be purchased from LN and C&W.
> 
> They look nothing like the tool on the Dutch website (or your tool).
> 
> ...



Bugbear,

I've seen those floats before and that is why I didn't think that it would be a planemaker's float. Is it not possible though that this could be a different sort of planemaker's float?

Not so sure if it's never had sharp teeth or not. It's definitely very blunt at the moment, but this may be because someone has been at it with a file. I started to see if I could bring it to some semblance of sharp last night. Started to level off the teeth as the end teeth had been filed down lower than the middle teeth (please don't tell me this is as it's supposed to be). Did this on abrasive paper and then polished up on a MDF wheel and polishing compound. The bottom looks nice and shiny now but it's still blunt. I'm thinking that attention to the inner faces of the teeth is required. I may have a go tonight.


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## MIGNAL (3 May 2007)

http://www.recorderhomepage.net/tools.html#Windway

You need to scroll down to 'windway cutter' and the toothbrush style of these cutters. Yours is not a windway cutter (unless it's for a huge Bass) but it does show how the teeth can be formed. These types of cutting or scraping tools were probably used by more disciplines of woodcraft than we realise. A friend of mine made a similar type of tool by setting 5 or 6 Stanley knife blades into a handheld wooden block, he used this as a type of cutter/scraper for fine tuning (tillering?) the Longbow that he had made.


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## Alf (3 May 2007)

MIGNAL":3ptrng7e said:


> A friend of mine made a similar type of tool by setting 5 or 6 Stanley knife blades into a handheld wooden block, he used this as a type of cutter/scraper for fine tuning (tillering?) the Longbow that he had made.


S'interesting - had he seen one of these I wonder? Just in passing - anyone tried one?

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (3 May 2007)

I note that all the (various and interesting) tools mentioned in this thread for which we have positive identification have either multiple narrow blades, cutting as a scraper, or "normal" teeth, like a rasp or a file.

This does not apply to the mystery tool.

BTW, I have skimmed Buck & Hickman 1935 conver to cover, and found nothing like the mystery tool.

BugBear (thinking hard, but still baffled).


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## mudman (3 May 2007)

Ooh, lots more to think about. Thanks for all your replies everyone.

However, one thing that I think I am coming around to is that it is a float of some sort. It seems to have been made for a specialised purpose, it is the purpose that is proving hard to track down.

After reading about the windway cautter, I was wondering if this should be sharpened as a scraper? Flattening it last night, I got the impression that the steel is not very hard (anyone know how I can test this?), I doubt it would be able to take or hold a very keen edge. Could it's use involve the turning of a burr on each tooth and then using it in a scraping action?
This may explain the state of the underside before I attacked it. Repeated removal of an old burr with a file as with a card scraper could explain what had happened to it.

So, I'm thinking that I might attempt to turn some burrs on the teeth tonight and see how it performs as a sort of scraper, has anyone got any thoughts on that. Would it be unadvisable?

Again, thanks for everyone's efforts to try to determine the tools usage. It has been an education so far that makes the 50p I paid for it well worth while.


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## bugbear (3 May 2007)

mudman":3rjnvkt7 said:


> Flattening it last night, I got the impression that the steel is not very hard (anyone know how I can test this?), I doubt it would be able to take or hold a very keen edge.



Ah hah! Information!

Conclusion: it's either NOT a cutting tool, or it's not for cutting wood.

With the teeth as large as they are, and pointing away from the handle, I've never been happy with the rasp/float idea - it would skip and catch terribly.

BugBear


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## mudman (3 May 2007)

bugbear":kf67xkww said:


> mudman":kf67xkww said:
> 
> 
> > Flattening it last night, I got the impression that the steel is not very hard (anyone know how I can test this?), I doubt it would be able to take or hold a very keen edge.
> ...



Bugbear,

Any idea how I can quantify 'not very hard'?
If it was used in a scraper fashion, would you want a really hard steel?

The other thing that intrigues me though is that it almost identical to this one from the Dutch site except for the curvature to the teeth. Including the swept-forwards teeth.


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## bugbear (4 May 2007)

mudman":2zbjy9ik said:


> The other thing that intrigues me though is that it almost identical to this one from the Dutch site except for the curvature to the teeth. Including the swept-forwards teeth.



Oh, no argument here - your tool is the same as that one. But I think the Dutch site has mis-ID'd their tool 

BugBear


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## mudman (4 May 2007)

bugbear":3lixklrn said:


> Oh, no argument here - your tool is the same as that one. But I think the Dutch site has mis-ID'd their tool
> 
> BugBear



Fair enough.
BTW, I tried a bit of a scratch test last night.
A mortice chisel will scratch it easily.
As will the blade of an engineer's square and a stanley knife.
Looking for something softer, a steel rule will scratch the metal as well.
Hmm, looking for something really soft, tried a pound coin, this would scratch it as well.
So, I think it is not very hard at all.

So, in the words of the late Viv Stanshall:

'It's blinking well baffling but to be more obtusely, buggered if I know. Yes, buggered if I know.'


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## alg (7 May 2007)

Whats all the fuss about,its quite obvious to me this is a "Go-NoGo" guage 
for checking the castellations on a "Tolberone Bar"
Cheers
Alg


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## bugbear (8 May 2007)

On the gun-maker theory, I remembered this nice local company:

http://www.gallyon-and-sons.co.uk/

and emailed them...



my email":sepqq4hk said:


> Dear experts;
> 
> In an internet discussion forum, we have been trying to identify
> a tool one of our members found at a sale.
> ...





Richard Gallyon":sepqq4hk said:


> Dear Paul,
> 
> I have no idea, it looks more like a leather makers tool than anything to do with gunmaking.



BugBear


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## Alf (8 May 2007)

Richard Gallyon":1dvvjamo said:


> Dear Paul,
> 
> I have no idea, it looks more like a leather makers tool than anything to do with gunmaking.


Must be a galoot... :lol:


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## Mirboo (8 May 2007)

While we're on the topic of guns (kind of ), check out the prices of these ones. :shock:


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## mudman (9 May 2007)

bugbear":1gjwly0b said:


> Richard Gallyon":1gjwly0b said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Paul,
> ...



Good lateral thinking there Bugbear, thanks for taking the time. 
So I guess we can assume that it ain't for gunmaking.

Been searching leatherworking tools without much success. Anyone got a copy of Salaman's book on leatherworking tools?

I thought then that maybe bookbinding something similar?


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## bugbear (9 May 2007)

mudman":36igzdyn said:


> Good lateral thinking there Bugbear



Thanks for the thanks, but I don't think "asking an expert" is very lateral!!

BugBear


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## dedee (10 May 2007)

When you lose something and can't find it anywhere it can only be somewhere you haven't looked.

Seems to me that with the combined knowledge of woodworkers on both side of the atlantic, and probably pacific as well, it is unlikely to be anything to do with woodwork.

Now what sort of trades do we not have represented around here?

Could it be a comb of some sort? Weaving perhaps? Or pottery? Printing?
cooking? I've googled on all of these without success so not really much help.

Andy


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## mudman (10 May 2007)

Dedee,

I think you could be right. I also have been googling everthing I could think of without success.


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2007)

Fig.9 isn't that far off looking like your tool.
Perhaps it is a windway cutter after all but it seems a little large and clumsy for that purpose. If this is the case it is almost certainly for a Tenor or Bass Recorder or perhaps some other large woodwind instrument.

www.flute-a-bec.com/taille-canalgb.html

It would also explain why there are 2 of these tools on the Dutch site - the Recorder is/was a very popular instrument in the Netherlands with quite a number of individual makers as well as at least one volume producer.
The metal would not have to be hard for it to be functional. Reamers that are used to form the complex bore shape in woodwind instruments are often left in their annealed state. 
I'm still not convinced though. Those forward facing teeth are the key to this tools identity. To me that suggests that it is a cutting/scraping tool that works on the forward stroke. Why would someone go to the trouble of producing a tool with that tooth geometry if those tooth angles were not necessary?


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## bugbear (11 May 2007)

MIGNAL":37jttvqp said:


> Fig.9 isn't that far off looking like your tool.
> Perhaps it is a windway cutter after all but it seems a little large and clumsy for that purpose. If this is the case it is almost certainly for a Tenor or Bass Recorder or perhaps some other large woodwind instrument.
> 
> www.flute-a-bec.com/taille-canalgb.html



Figure 9 is a clear "float" with conventional teeth, discussed earlier in the thread.

BugBear


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## MIGNAL (13 May 2007)

To try and resolve the application of this mystery tool I took the liberty of sending the picture to two eminent Recorder makers to see if they could discount it's use as a windway cutter. Phillipe Bolton is a highly respected recorder maker working in France, below is his reply: 

Dear Michael 
It could be used as a windway cutter, but that depends on its 
dimensions. It would have to have the width of the narrowest part of the 
windway (the window end) and the right curvature. It does seem a little 
short compared to its width however. That sort of tool could also be 
used for cutting channels or grooves. 
Philippe Bolton 

Dr Brian Blood is head of the well known English firm Dolmetsch and is an authority on the Recorder (amongst other things). His reply: 

Dear Michael, 

I emailed the picture over to Robert Bigio, a flute maker, who has an 
interest in early tools and he emailed the picture to Michael Wright 
who is a senior curator at The Science Museum in London. 

Michael Wright says this: 

'The tool is a sort of rasp, called a "float"; the projecting 
teeth are finished with a small degree of clearance to give them a 
"cut". This type of tool might, I suppose, be used on wood; but it is 
usually associated with working in horn. I have one somewhere, but 
have never used it...' 

I hope this is helpful. 

Best regards, 

Brian 

Many thanks to Philippe, Brian, Robert Bigio and Michael Wright for helping resolve the 'mystery tool'.


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## mudman (13 May 2007)

Brian,

That's brilliant, thanks very much for taking the time. It is amazing to think that my mystery tool has reached the attention of such august persons.

So I think that we can assume that the senior curator of the Science Museum knows what he is talking about and that this is indeed a type of float.

So, I decided it was about time that I tried to see if it would cut. I had tried a few things previously but couldn't get any cutting action at all.

I had the idea that it needed to cut with a scraping action and so a burr needed to be formed on the teeth.

I had been a bit perplexed as to how to do this until I hit on the idea of using a centre punch. I took one with a 90 degree point and ran it a few times between each tooth. I then turned the resultant burr back up using a spade bit. I then put a scrap of ash in the vice and...

*It cuts*

It cuts lovely in fact leaving a really nice smooth clean surface.
I tried it also just running the centre punch along the teeth without turning the burr back up and it still cuts. It smooths, it shapes, it's really nice. It has the rasp action without the tearing of the fibres that you usually get. 

In fact this is quite a nice tool.


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