# I blame Roy Underhill!



## AndyT

Well, I say blame, it's more of a polite thankyou. And also 'Toolsntat' Andy, who sent me a tip-off that a rather interesting item was on ebay, collection only, in Bristol. 

So I've done the deed and bought it. I've also brought it home in semi-portable bits. Good grief but it's solid!

I'm talking about a Barnes 4 1/2 treadle driven metalworking lathe.
It's the model Roy Underhill featured in this programme - http://video.unctv.org/video/2296983856 which is little more than a half hour advert for the thing!

This is the ebay listing photo showing it assembled:







And here are some close-ups of it in bits in my workshop:


























As far as I can see there are no important bits missing and there is just one handle broken. Most of the bits move and it looks as if it was well greased before being left unloved in a shed for a while. It comes with a three jaw chuck, a four jaw and a faceplate. It has a set of change gears to power the toolrest along to do thread cutting. Yahoo!!   

It will be "some time" before I post any video of it whirring away happily and I expect I'll be back with lots of questions, especially to the serial restorers of lumps of old cast iron.

For starters, what's the best sort of degreaser to use these days?
And what bits turn against what other bits to get the chuck open and removed?


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## Richard T

Eeeek! :shock: =D> =D> 

And it's a treadle one so you don't have to remember to peddle backwards. 

I wonder what the likelihood of finding a manual is ... the back gear ratios frinstance can't be guessed at. 

Screw cutting should be a good deal less frought than when using a powered lathe - if you mess up with the disengagement you can just stop treddling before the carriage collides with the chuck.  (Looks like that's the lever that is broken?)

Btw have you seen this site? http://www.lathes.co.uk/barnes/index.html

and http://www.lathes.co.uk/index.html

Seems like a useful sort of place.


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## toolsntat

Good on ya Andy. =D> =D> 8) 
Look forward to the Video =P~ 

Andy


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## Inspector

Not the machine I fantasize about but it should be fun to play with. I'm not coordinated enough to work my hands and feet at the same time. :roll: 

As for degreasing I would use a solvent like Varsol or mineral spirits. What you have in your neck of the woods and are allowed to play with could be different than what we can get here in Canada. 

For the rust look into http://shieldtechnology.co.uk/rustremoval.htmln 
Should be just the thing to shine up your machine.

Pete


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## bugbear

Richard T":10cg9hd1 said:


> I wonder what the likelihood of finding a manual is ... the back gear ratios frinstance can't be guessed at.



But can be calculated easily after counting the teeth on the gears?

BugBear


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## AndyT

Thanks for the encouragement guys!

The gear ratio problem has been sorted by the very clever Barnes designers who seem to have anticipated that a paper manual would not last as long as their indestructible machines. There is a metal plate on one of the legs which shows the model number and the gears to choose for a range of different pitches:






And here's a general view of the whole top bit that I didn't post last night






Thanks for the links Richard - I had already found that site and it helped encourage me to take the plunge!

On the degreaser front what I was wondering was how good the various cans of stuff in bike and car shops really are - I suspect I'll use quite a lot of white spirit as I already have it and it's cheap.


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## condeesteso

What a beauty indeed, slightly envious. What with the foot powered scroll saw and this, it must be quite peaceful over there.
I hope you restore it quicker than I have managed with the hand morticer. Re degreasing, I think Jim knows a few tricks.... where's Jim?


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## Cheshirechappie

Ooooo - that's NICE! ***turns faintly green with envy***

On degreasing, white spirit will do, but even better if you can get hold of some is diesel oil. You can either leave smaller bits to soak in a bucket, or slather it onto bigger bits and leave it to steep for a week or so. It'll loosen some pretty heavy duty crud.

For further information, there's a specialist bookseller called Camden Miniature Steam Services. If they have a copy of 'Using the Small Lathe' by L.C.Mason, snaffle a copy. There are lots of other books on lathe work, but that's among the best. (It explains, among many other things, screwcutting and the selection of gear trains for, so you'll be able to check whether Barnes' draughtsmen got their sums right when they set out that brass plate!)

I think that three-jaw chuck that's on the spindle is a 'scroll chuck', operated by two bars of round metal in the holes on it's periphery. It looks from the bits like you've got a set of 'outside jaws' as well. They're handy.

The chuch is probably fitted to the spindle by being screwed on and off - you can easily check by examining the 4-jaw and faceplate. It'll be tight to remove in all probability, having been attached for so long. Soak well in Plus Gas, diesel or similar penetrating oil, and try not to damage the spindle nose.

I shall follow this one with interest!


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## bugbear

condeesteso":2p594f4r said:


> What a beauty indeed, slightly envious. What with the foot powered scroll saw and this, it must be quite peaceful over there.
> I hope you restore it quicker than I have managed with the hand morticer. Re degreasing, I think Jim knows a few tricks.... where's Jim?



Busy buying telescopes!!

BugBear


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## rxh

I have the slightly larger Barnes No.5 (5 1/2" centre height and 33" between centres). It has the date 1890 on the back of the bed. Sadly mine lost its treadle before I bought it so it is motor driven but it is in regular use. Yours looks like it will be readily brought into useable condition - please let us know how you get on.


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## AndyT

rxh":38syv1oo said:


> I have the slightly larger Barnes No.5 (5 1/2" centre height and 33" between centres). It has the date 1890 on the back of the bed. Sadly mine lost its treadle before I bought it so it is motor driven but it is in regular use. Yours looks like it will be readily brought into useable condition - please let us know how you get on.



Wow very nice!

I expect I shall be coming back with some detailed questions as I get on with the restoration. I'll also be looking for a date on mine.


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## AndyT

Here's a quick update of some progress on dismantling and cleaning. I won't post every picture though I'm trying to take plenty to show me how to put it back together. One nice aspect of machinery of this age is that it's really easy to look at it and understand what the function of each part is. (It's at the opposite end of the spectrum from a modern car, for instance!)

This is how the cross slide swivels. A circular part has a dovetailed rim which fits into a matching slot. A bolt tightens a collar to hold it in place:






On sub-assemblies like this, each part has a number stamped on it - mine are number 17. I think the method of manufacture must have been to cast and machine to standard sizes, then number a set of parts before fitting them together as a unit. Just like making wooden moulding planes where you can find a pencilled number on body and wedge matching a filed number on the iron. (The number on the iron being in Roman numerals as they are much easier to file.)

For cleaning I'm trying some of this Autoglym cleaner (which seems quite good) as well as WD40 or equivalent, white spirit and plenty of old toothbrushes, sticks and rags. The outer layer of filthy old grease can be scraped off with an old credit card and then brushed with the cleaner and washed.

Before:






During:






After:






I've not decided what to put as a final finish. I don't want to repaint. I'll probably go for thinned linseed oil on the big bits (legs, flywheel, bed) with renaissance wax on the smaller, handled parts.

One challenge was getting the old chuck off. This is how it was at first. In this shot you can see that the front part is fixed to the back with three screws. These are very mashed up and two of the heads are broken - fortunately they were loose and came off with pliers.






That left the outer part locked solid and the inner part very firmly screwed on to the mandrel. I tried a strap wrench but that was too gentle.






After leaving it overnight and coming back to it the next day I saw at once what to do. These pictures are a reconstruction for your benefit!

Step 1 was to trace over the positions of the screw holes with a piece of paper. 






Step 2 was to use that as a template to knock three nails into a bit of scrap wood:






Step 3 was to wedge the pulleys against the casting, hold the new bespoke wrench in place and give it a little knock with a hammer:






This worked!

The outer part was locked up solid with a twist bit in place. After some fruitless attempts to undo it, I realised that I could just drift the drill bit out by putting it over a handy dog hole in the bench and hitting the back of it. With the drill out, the other bits moved enough to open it up and clean it. 

I now see it is by Cushman Industries - who are still going - but according to the archive copy of the 1912 catalogue were a supplier of accessory chucks to Barnes, so it may well be contemporary with the lathe.
















There's still plenty more to do; I'll post updates when there's anything fresh to report.


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## WoodMangler

I made my first steam engine (a Reeves 'Trojan') on a treadle lathe of similar vintage. One thing about treadle lathes is that you soon learn just how important it is to keep your tools sharp...


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## dickm

Very reminiscent of the Drummond flat bed that I once acquired as consolation prize while buying a car for SWMBO  . It had been treadle powered, but at some stage in its life, had a motor added. Fortunately it had been kept dry, so everything worked immediately. Amazingly good machine, still very precise after at least 70 years of (presumably quite gentle) work. Wonder where it is now???


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## Lons

WOW...love it. I'll follow this with great interest Andy  

I think you'll have as much fun doing it up as you will using it.

Bob


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## condeesteso

Excellent work Andy. I am particularly keen to see how the finishing looks (having a morticer to do up, as you know).


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## AndyT

I'm sure you will all be thrilled to know that I have spent several happy hours in the workshop patiently scrubbing the decades of accumulated grime off my new old lathe. Here are some more wip photos as evidence.

Headstock with filth:






going...






going...






and the current state - can you see that there is no compacted grease inside the root of every one of those gear teeth? And that you can touch most of the surfaces without getting a black hand?






Here are the change gears before:






and after:






The four jaw chuck had been as black and greasy as everything else but here it is clean - so the numbers on the jaws are visible - 






I can now see that this too is by Cushman and could well have been supplied with the lathe:







It's all going nice and smoothly - old screws have all come undone when I needed them to. The headstock won't move on the bed but there's no need for it to do so - it has to sit in the right place for the leather belt to run.

There are two little challenges. The biggest of the change wheels has a break in it:











These gears are machined steel, not cast iron, so it may be feasible to get this welded - if it's necessary. The gear chart only shows it as being needed for very fine threads.

However, I suspect the last owner might have used the automatic feed on it slowest settings as the default way of advancing the carriage, as the manual advance handle is broken:






This ought to have a bar both sides with a balancing ball on one side and a forwards facing handle on the other. 

I hope I could make one, when the lathe is working - my plan is to make a substitute in hardwood to get me started and then have a go at a steel or brass one. Tell me if that's a silly idea.

More later, but the action shots will be a while yet.


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## bugbear

AndyT":3k1ae2xs said:


> However, I suspect the last owner might have used the automatic feed on it slowest settings as the default way of advancing the carriage, as the manual advance handle is broken:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This ought to have a bar both sides with a balancing ball on one side and a forwards facing handle on the other.
> 
> I hope I could make one, when the lathe is working - my plan is to make a substitute in hardwood to get me started and then have a go at a steel or brass one. Tell me if that's a silly idea.



Boot strapping a lathe into a better lathe is almost a hobby in itself for some model engineers.

BugBear


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## Richard T

Is the piece with the broken handle one solid piece or can any of it be taken apart? 

I was wondering about attaching a new handle of that type to the existing thread and gear. 

Just a photo I found of vaguely the right type of handle. If the handle was made like this: (turned) 





Then it would be attached at its middle ball; which is still there. Is it detachable at that point?


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## JakeS

AndyT":yi39x579 said:


> I hope I could make one, when the lathe is working - my plan is to make a substitute in hardwood to get me started and then have a go at a steel or brass one. Tell me if that's a silly idea.



If you had one made of hardwood, you could cast a new one from aluminium! You'd just need... ;-)



I'm sure I recall seeing some machinists recommending _not_ cutting wood on a metal lathe because if the chips are left laying around and/or dust gets under the slides or whatever they can promote rust... but I'd tend to think of that as a cleaning problem more than anything!


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## AndyT

Yes Richard that's exactly what I need. The old one was held on by a tapered pin which I have removed. It's still stuck tight but I have not yet tried heating or proper pulling with an extractor. 
The other handles all have dimples showing that they were turned between centres. 
I do have an ordinary electric lathe for wood turning and will resist attempts to push me down the DIY casting slope for now thanks!


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## Richard T

Yes, I think you might have trouble making that handle without that handle. 

Also, do you have a doming tool? Easy enough to buy off the rack for a Myford but I would imagine some adjustments would have to be made to fit yours ... bolted to something to hold in the vice ....? 

You can dome to a certain extent by taking increasingly angled passes - on mine this means changing the angle of the small slide on top of the cross slide. Saw Roy do it with his, can yours do that? You can only go so far though, three passes maybe, as the cross slide will go no further over and I have been finishing off my domes by turning them with a file. 

Much easier I should think to make a handle 'without the balls' in order to make one with.  Maybe in mild steel, a piece of flat bar with a turned handle?


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## bugbear

Richard T":1xlev4tu said:


> Much easier I should think to make a handle 'without the balls' in order to make one with.



You see? - "bootstrapping"

BugBear


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## chipmunk

Are these any use?

Ball Handles - Chrome here...
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machine-Spares/Machine-Handles

They are very brash chrome plated things so will stick out like a sore thumb against the lovely patina on your old machine but for a few quid will get you turning.

HTH
Jon


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## AndyT

Hmm ... keep it up guys this is helpful. I think the first step is to get the old stub off the shaft and see how it fits. I could then make a rough replacement from flat bar (I have a bit about 8' long) with a bolt through one end holding a captive bit of copper tube. That should be stronger than wood and get me started. I am sort of hoping that I will be able to do curved cuts by swivelling the tool rest on its circular dovetail mounting. Not quite a proper ball turning jig but it might work. Otherwise I imagine a process a bit like trying to draw a circle on an etch-a-sketch, followed by quite a lot of filing. 

How important is it to have this handle balanced by a ball on one side? Would a circular handle with a spinny knob on it be just as good?

I was about to post the above when Chipmunk's post popped up. That source looks brilliant! 
I estimate my missing handle to have been a bit bigger - how much does that matter?


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## Richard T

There's this from Myford. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BALL-HANDLE-A ... 0804031682

I could check mine as to size of hole etc


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## xy mosian

Any of these anywhere near size?

http://www.wdsltd.co.uk/product/3597/tr ... e-wds-8183

xy


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## Richard T

On mine, the cross slide ball handle is 3" long and the saddle moving wheel is 3 - 1/2" diameter. 





Xy - I can't work out how big those handles you linked to are .... there are numbers but numbers of what?


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## chipmunk

The Myford spares site probably has one the right size too...

http://www.myford.co.uk/acatalog/Myford_ML7_Carriage_Assembly.html

Now you have far too many options :wink: 
Jon


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## AndyT

Thanks again everyone we're getting there. From the bit left, I think my broken handle, which winds the carriage along, would have been about 4 inches/100mm long. Rxh, would you mind measuring the same handle on yours?

If that's the right size I think one of the WDS ones that you found Xy would be right. Assuming the fixing can be adapted somehow. So I will see if I can get it apart.


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## xy mosian

Sorry Richard, the page is not as clear as it should be. I am assuming the numbers are metric dimensions.
xy

P.S. I've just registered and downloaded the 2D CAD file. The dimensions are indeed in mm.


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## rxh

Andy,

I'll measure my handle at the weekend - I'm away in the far north of Scotland at the moment.


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## Henning

Great work!

What a fantastic piece of old engineering.


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## rxh

Andy,

Here is a photo of my handle and a rough sketch. The dimensions should be legible if you click on the sketch to enlarge it.

I can't work out how it has been made or even how many separate parts there are. Maybe the parts were connected by shrink fitting?

I wonder how your handle suffered such brutal damage.


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## AndyT

RXH, that's brilliant!

Thank you so much for taking all that time and trouble, I really appreciate it.

I also know that my first project will be somewhat ambitious unless I can find a bigger spare part than those generously found for me already.

As for how it was made, my guess, judging from the dimples on the other handles, is that it was turned between centres but whether that was in two pieces or five I wouldn't know.

Lots more thinking to do as the cleaning continues...


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## Richard T

Rxh wrote: _Maybe the parts were connected by shrink fitting?
_

All the handle pieces on mine are solidly connected; there is no swiveling. Could be shrunk - fitted but I would guess that they are riveted in. 
Not sure but that's what I would do if I were making one.


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## AndyT

Time for a quick update. Not too exciting, but just in case I can encourage anyone else to do a similar job.

This week, I have mostly been cleaning.

Most of the parts were pretty filthy with a built up layer of old grease, oil and dirt. Fortunately this comes off quite easily with degreaser, hot water and white spirit.











The top layer can be scraped off with a stick:






Then it's scrubbing time:











The treadle is especially thickly coated:






Underneath the dirt there is little trace of the original paint. According to Roy Underhill, the original paint was decorated with coloured lines. I'm not going to attempt to recreate that. Instead, once the bigger bits are clean, I brushed on some boiled linseed oil, thinned down with turps. That's an idea that has been mentioned on here before in old machine restoration threads. I think it should give a surface that I can keep clean, without going back to bare metal and applying modern paint. After a few hours I wiped off the surplus with a rag (remembering to dispose of the rag safely - they can spontaneously ignite).

That gets it looking like this:






Here's the flywheel before:





during





and after






Doing all this at least makes me familiar with how the lathe goes together. In this shot you can see how a hard steel bearing for the shaft holding the flywheel is fitted into the right hand cast iron leg:






That's a little wooden wedge that I'm holding. Nice and simple!

That's all for now, except to thank CC for his book recommendation - I now have a copy of "Using the Small Lathe" by Mason and it seems to be just what I need to get me started.


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## AndyT

No actual metal turning yet but there has been some progress.

With most of the cleaning completed and the linseed oil dry over the remains of the old finish, the time has come to decide how to fit the lathe into the workshop. The only possible space is where I keep an assortment of bits of wood which will all be useful one day. Luckily I had recently tidied this area so it was quite easy to move a lot of cardboard boxes out into the corridor to await further reorganisation.

This is how it was before:






My workshop is in the basement and the Victorian concrete floor undulates gently from side to side. I don't know if the builders were drunk or if they just thought it was good enough for the kitchen maid, but the lathe needs something pretty flat. Fortunately the offcut stock included most of a table top which is not only the right size but is painted gloss blue, which should repel oil drips nicely. It's wedged up level on some handy offcuts.

Here is the lathe starting to come together - I clamped the crankshaft to make sure it didn't all fall over. The back pivot bar for the treadle just sits in two holes in the feet.






With assistance from no 1 son, I lifted the bead and headstock into place and bolted the end stands onto it:






The angle of that photo is a bit misleading - the wood is on wall brackets, not actually resting on the lathe itself. There is just enough space for now but I need to use some of it up!

The good news is that the flywheel revolves sweetly on its bearings and the treadle mechanism works just fine as well. 

Next jobs include:

- fitting a new flat belt
- making a replacement for the broken carriage handle
- reassembling the slide rest and tail stock
- possibly getting the cracked change wheel welded

and then I'll start learning to turn metal!


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## Richard T

Although I have use of a Myford Super 7 .... I am still jealous. 

Biggest gear weld should not be of immediate importance ... I think you are going the exact right way. Get it seated properly and cutting properly. Your cleaning looks the biz.


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## AndyT

A bit more progress towards my new indoor exercise regime...

I've tried (gently) to separate the broken handle from its post and gear wheel, without success. I removed a tapered pin but the two parts seem well united. I've not tried heat. 






It will be a nice challenge to make a proper metal one, but to attempt that I need something that will make the lathe usable. So, admitting that it's the sort of temporary lash-up that might be used for a while, I have made a temporary handle from scrap aluminium and wood.

This is the sort of non-precision metalwork I feel comfortable with. I marked out a bar of thick ali and drilled a big hole in the middle for the existing ball to fit into. This needed to be opened out quite a bit. As luck would have it, one of the extra oddments with the lathe was a 7/8" drill bit, fitted with a cross-handle. (It's probably quite an old drill bit as it's marked with Morse's original 1863 patent!) I don't have anything to hold a bit that big, except the new lathe which I can't use yet, so there was no alternative except to do this bit by hand.

I was glad I'd chosen aluminium, not steel. It didn't take too long to get the hole to the right size. I don't recommend this technique, but it worked!






I then clamped the stub between more bits of aluminium and added a turned wooden handle, on a captive bolt. This left the handle unbalanced, so I added some lead washers to the light side.











Definitely not pretty but it will work.

So, here's the lathe set up, nearly ready for the off:
















One bit seems to be missing - a special bolt to hold an idler gear in place; luckily I had a suitable one for now - but I hope I can try making a matching one soon.

The belt should arrive this week, when I will find out if it's all been a waste of time. Stay tuned for the next installment!


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## lanemaux

Hi Andy , been following your thread with great interest. I watched the Roy Underhill program on this lathe (of course , who didn't?) and was very amused by his efforts. That guy can have fun mucking out stables , can't he ? Bet he would have gotten cleaner results with less time constraints. Nice work so far and wow she looks cool in her new home. Keep it up amigo , you are doing great!


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## AndyT

Thanks Lanemaux and everyone. It's really encouraging to know that I'm not the only one who likes this sort of old user powered machinery. I read somewhere it was a Barnes lathe that the Wright brothers had, so the sky's the limit eh?!


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## AndyT

The new belt arrived today. Not leather, but it should be practical and comes with an easy alligator fitting:







After careful measuring, fitting, taking it off again, shortening it, putting the bits back, it looked like this:






(Actually that picture was the first time around; the second time I got it straight. I was being careful and measuring how much length to allow for the clip.)

So, with the belt in place, tight enough to work, it was time to cut some metal. I centre punched the end of a bit of rusty scrap steel and put it into the three jaw scroll chuck. By the wonder of standards, Morse tapers go back to the era of this lathe and have remained in use, so the relatively new Jacobs chuck with 1MT quill that I bought to go in my Axi wood lathe is a perfect fit in the Barnes for jobs like drilling the end with a centre drill, to run on the dead centre.






See the little pile of swarf starting to form!

And here is the start of the first cut, using one of the original Buck and Hickman 3/8 x 3/4" one piece cutting tools. I don't know what sort of steel they are but they do seem hard enough, just. (I wonder if they might be more suitable for brass?)






Proper engineers will admire the special 'torn' finish that I am getting here - I was just pleased that it goes round and all the bits move that should!

I've got so many things to learn at once now. First off will be the tooling side of things - I am tempted to upgrade to some modern 10mm tooling. Should I just get a set with brazed on tips or go for the removable insert sort? New tooling would not have the huge overhang that these old tools do. 

On my toolpost I don't have the double ring to adjust the height - with the tools I've got, there would be no room for it. But that does mean the only way I can adjust where the tip ends up is to put shims under the back. This changes the angle, which is probably wrong anyway...

I also have a holder for 3/16" square HSS - which I see is still available:






If I get some new HSS for this, I'm not sure there would be room for it all - will I be able to snap a 75mm or 100mm piece in two? 

Another reason for the poor surface is that I don't have any cutting lubricant - I did put some oil on, which smoked quite nicely. What should I get? And how do I stop it splashing everywhere and making my lathe all mucky again? - and my spare wood!

Lots to learn, lots of questions, but I'm getting there. And my right leg is going to love this thing!! :lol: :lol:


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## bugbear

Get thee to a copy of "the Amateur's Lathe" by Sparey. Guy was a genius, and could write too.

BugBear


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## chipmunk

Hi Andy,
I'd stick to HSS toolbits - cheaper and more in keeping with the machine IMHO.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Cutting-Tools/High-Speed-Steel-Toolbits in plain HSS or
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-hss-tool-steel-prod23446/ with Cobalt

It comes in the right size for your holder but as you say will probably have to be cut (Dremel cut-off wheel or similar all around tool bit and then snap - safety specs :shock: ).

I think that you may have to be prepared to get your lovely machine mucky if you're going to use though :wink: 

...but you may be able to get by with cutting paste like this Molyslip MCC...
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Protection-Grease-Adhesives/Lubrication-and-Cutting-Aids
rather than really messy fluids/oils?

I am very envious :mrgreen: 
HTH
Jon


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## Richard T

Suds oil. Several choices on EBay.

Not oil; it's water soluble and not soap, although it does smell of carbolic. 

I need to get some too as I realised the other day that all the other jars I thought were suds turned out to be something else.


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## Cheshirechappie

Hi Andy - the lathe's looking good - very good!

I'd agree with Chipmunk that HSS toolbits is the right way to go. The inserted tip bits, both the older Tungsten Carbide brazed-in sort and the more modern inserted tip Cermet types really need higher turning speeds than a treadle lathe can deliver to work properly. The other real advantage of HSS is that you can easily modify tool shapes with an offhand grinder, something you can't easily do with the other tool types. You can shorten the bought bits by nicking all round on the corner of an offhand grinder wheel and snapping by holding in a vice and tapping with a hammer.

On cutting oil, there are a couple of options. One is the water-soluable cutting fluid often called 'suds' in machine shops. This is more a coolant than a lubricant, and whilst correctly mixed it's supposed not to corrode machines, in practice it does a bit, especially if used infrequently. The better option is a neat cutting oil, which is less a coolant and more a cutting lubricant. One such is NC110, such as this offering from Reeves - http://shop.ajreeves.com/straight-cutti ... 7042-p.asp - the quantity is convenient; most industrial suppliers will want you to take a five gallon drum! This stuff does smoke a bit, but you don't need much - just apply with a small brush either as you're machining, or just before you run a cut. It has the advantage that it doesn't rust the machine, either. It helps a lot with improving surface finish.

With materials, the grade of metal used can make a difference to machinability. The bit of steel you have looks like a rather nasty piece of commercial mild steel, which isn't the nicest stuff to macine to a finish. A grade that machines much more nicely is 'free-cutting' mild steel (often called En1A), or the even more free-cutting leaded free-cutting, En1APb. For brass, CZ121 is the usual free-cutting grade (sometimes called 'screw brass'). One good source of small quantities is Folkestone Engineering Supplies, another is The College Engineering Supply - I've used both at various times, and can recommend them.


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## martinka

Lovely looking lathe and it cleaned up nicely. I'm jealous. Good job with the makeshift handle too.

Martin.


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## AndyT

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Time for some shopping!


On reflection, I think that bit of steel might have been salvaged from the garden railing that was hidden by the hedge - could it possibly have been as old as the house and be a bit of Victorian wrought iron?


I shall keep at it and report back.


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## chipmunk

Hi Andy.
I had another thought overnight. 
Please take a look at some of this chap's videos if you get time - you won't regret it...

http://www.youtube.com/user/mrpete222/videos

He's an old Illinois school teacher and machinist and has a very good dry SoH - they're entertaining in their own right. 
He has over 100 videos of machine shop tips with many on running powered metalworking lathes but most of that will apply to your B&N.

+1 for Cheshirechappy's comments on freecutting EN1A MS. 
Axminster sell it too although not cheap...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-3-x-330mm-en1a-steel-bars-prod844706/
and also Chronos for most materials in small quantities...
http://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Metals___Raw_Materials.html

Enjoy!
Jon


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## AndyT

Thanks Jon, 

That's a good few hours of viewing lined up and I do like his style I of delivery. A bit like being taught by Johnny Cash!


Some proper bits of metal will soon be on their way.


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## rxh

Ordinary HSS bits work will work OK and the shorter projection should reduce chatter and produce a better finish. I have a "screw apart" spacer to adjust the height of my bit but you could use disc shaped shims as packing to get the same effect.

I also have a different tool holder that will accept square section bits or a piece of round bar that can be used a rest for freehand turning, which is good for making knobs or similar rounded items. HSS woodturning scrapers or similar tools can be used for this. I have tried this with brass and mild steel. Files can be used for finishing off using a stroking motion (not kept still).

Well done with the restoration and the temporary handle


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## AndyT

Thanks RXH that's useful info. I'll see how I get on with the HSS in my holder. If swapping tips is a nuisance I can see how a toolholder like your second one could make a lot of sense. It would make it easier to use a proper parting tool too.


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## AndyT

I've found some time to play with my new toy so here is a quick update.

I've bought some proper free cutting mild steel, some bits of HSS and some suds. I've been reading a selection of new and old books and watching Youtube videos. I've even learned how to use a dial gauge to set up a four jaw chuck (and I'm feeling pleased at having held onto an old dial gauge for the last ten years or more.) It's time to make something useful.

Here I am successfully cutting with one of the old original tools, freshly ground:






I could only take light cuts but at least the metal is turning up in curls, not just ripping out in chunks. This steel is so much nicer than the old scrap I was playing with before.

I then needed to set up my freshly ground threading tool to centre height. I'm using the method of pinching something thin against the workpiece to see if it stands vertical - in this case showing one of the many uses for an old credit card. Tool height adjustment is pretty limited - I can pull the HSS out a bit (it sits at an angle in the toolholder) or else I can use shims. Good job I'm not in a hurry.






Here is a shot of the right change wheels in place to do give 24 TPI:






and a few dry runs later, I can cut a thread. It works!






I did this very carefully, in several cuts. As Roy demonstrates in his video, it's easy to keep the half nut engaged and just treadle backwards to get to the start again - and this is only a very small screw. Here it is with the cutting finished - a 7/32" US standard thread, about 5/8" long.

I don't have a cut-off tool so I just sawed this off with a hacksaw, in the lathe. That's not something I would attempt on a powered lathe - but with this one it's really easy to rotate the work dead slow.

Then it's over to the bench to cut a slot with my vintage "4S" tool in its "Slotting" mode:






and here is the result, in place, being useful, holding the front of my little scroll chuck onto the back. Can you tell which one it is and guess what I am going to make next? ;-)


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## Cheshirechappie

Nice work, Andy! Most people fight shy of screwcutting when they're new to lathework, so all credit for having a go.

I noticed a diestock set up with a die in one of the photographs. Especially with Whitworth form threads having rounded crests and roots to the thread, finishing with a die is a good move. You can adjust the die to give a nice fit of thread in hole, too. Another tip when dealing with Whit form threads is to turn the blank to a bit less than 'proper' OD, and lose the crest rounding. That way, you can screwcut to a finish; the slight loss in OD doesn't affect the strength of the threaded joint in any way, and neither does the pointed rather than rounded root..

A tip when making both male and female threads is to drill and tap the holes first, then take a stub of steel about three times the diameter of the screw, and about twice the diameter of thread in length. Chuck in the three-jaw, face, drill and tap. You can use this home-made gauge as a guide when screwcutting the male threads - when it'll just screw on nicely, you're done; with the added advantage that it'll be nicely sized to fit YOUR tap.

The 'complete reversal' method of screwcutting is a good one for short lengths of thread, and is even better on a treadle lathe than a power one, because you can reverse as quick as you can treadle. You can also slow the treadling down as you near the end of a cut, making the job a bit less fraught than with a power lathe. (Screwcutting to a shoulder with a largish job in a big powered lathe needs a lot of concentration, and some nerve - been there, done that!) Don't be afraid to get the last bit by pulling the belt by hand, either. That's the sort of control you just don't have under power.


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## rxh

You are in business now Andy! =D> 

Valuable tips from CC – just in time to benefit me as I have been doing a bit of threading too. I have been making an adaptor to connect a modern 4-jaw scroll chuck to this old Arundel woodturning lathe which seems to have an odd thread size: a bit less than 7/8” but 14 TPI. 7/8” UNF is the nearest standard thread that I could find but it is not an exact match. Anyway, with careful work I have made a female thread to fit it nicely and I am in the process of making a 1”, 8 TPI male thread to fit the chuck. As RichardT and CC have pointed out, a treadle looks like a considerable advantage when threading. Since I have no treadle and because I am afraid of suffering a “train crash” by using the motor, I have made these short threads against a blind hole or shoulder by turning the chuck by hand. This was a bit laborious but worked OK. I used Screwfix cutting, tapping and drilling fluid as a lubricant.

So 19th century technology still has its uses…..


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## AndyT

Thanks again for the kind and helpful comments. I have now made a set of three screws for the little chuck, which is satisfying. I know I could possibly have tracked down some 7/32 24 TPI American standard screws - but not easily, and if I had, I would not have learned anything. It was quite a small scale job to start on, but it will give me the confidence to try more - RXH, your special lathe part is just the sort of odd job I shall be looking out for. I already did have respect for machinists but it's not until you start to explore the foothills that you realise how high up the peaks are!

It's certainly true that foot/hand power is a less stressful way to start - on one of the screws, I managed to let part of the carriage bump into one of the protruding chuck jaws. It was at the end of the thread anyway, so I was going slowly, and there was no damage - instead, the belt just slipped a bit on the pulley, leaving me to work out why. With a powered lathe I expect there would have been some expensive damage.

CC, you are very observant - the die was a 3/16" one I was playing with, having accidentally taken a few cuts too many and made a screw too small - I expect it will come in handy some time for something else. I've sent off for a bigger selection of taps and dies so will be able to experiment with lathe cutting followed by final shaping. I also have a few thread chasers which came with the lathe, though not a 24 TPI one. It will be interesting to have a go with those. 

From Oxfam, I've bought myself a three volume set of The Complete Metalworker, edited by Bernard Jones and published in the 1920s, which suggests thread chasers as a good technique on small lathes like mine. I need to find a sensible compromise between using suitable methods for the lathe I have and taking advantage of newer tools and materials from the last hundred years or so. Lots of fun ahead, though I have a few woodworking projects I need to get round to!


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## dickm

rxh":3uzvtqj3 said:


> You are in business now Andy! =D>
> 
> Valuable tips from CC – just in time to benefit me as I have been doing a bit of threading too. I have been making an adaptor to connect a modern 4-jaw scroll chuck to this old Arundel woodturning lathe which seems to have an odd thread size: a bit less than 7/8” but 14 TPI. 7/8” UNF is the nearest standard thread that I could find but it is not an exact match. Anyway, with careful work I have made a female thread to fit it nicely and I am in the process of making a 1”, 8 TPI male thread to fit the chuck. As RichardT and CC have pointed out, a treadle looks like a considerable advantage when threading. Since I have no treadle and because I am afraid of suffering a “train crash” by using the motor, I have made these short threads against a blind hole or shoulder by turning the chuck by hand. This was a bit laborious but worked OK. I used Screwfix cutting, tapping and drilling fluid as a lubricant.
> 
> So 19th century technology still has its uses…..


Be interesting to know how this goes - when making this sort of adaptor, the biggest problem is getting the two registers exactly coaxial and parallel so you don't get severe run-out on the male portion - DAMHIKT  . Even rechucking and carefully clocking in a 4-jaw chuck isn't completely reliable, so using a 3-jaw as in the pic could be even worse. Ideally, it needs a dummy mandrel between centres with the Arundel thread on it to hold the female threaded adaptor while cutting the male thread to be sure all is true. 
But good luck!


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## bugbear

rxh":2yilk5gs said:


> . As RichardT and CC have pointed out, a treadle looks like a considerable advantage when threading. Since I have no treadle and because I am afraid of suffering a “train crash” by using the motor, I have made these short threads against a blind hole or shoulder by turning the chuck by hand. This was a bit laborious but worked OK.



One of the standard amateur lathe attachment (since amatuers push their kit into places it was never meant to go...) is a mandrel handle.

http://home.comcast.net/~glyford/lathe/mandrel.htm

BugBear


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## rxh

Dick
Yes, the possibility the errors might stack up too much is a concern. However I have checked the adaptor in place on the Arundel with a dial gauge and it is running reasonably concentric but of course the real test will be how the chuck runs when fitted …..

BB
Thanks for the handle tip. It looks like a good idea – I’ll start looking through my junk boxes for suitable parts to make one from.

Andy,
As I've spent rather a lot of time on metalwork this year I also thought I should get back to some woodwork so I have made a start on making a mandolin, which will be a new adventure for me. Incidentally, before I got a woodturning lathe I did some woodturning using the Barnes, including making two start barley twists with a small router strapped to the carriage and the gear train set to deliver the required pitch. This Heath Robinson type idea worked quite well although the twists did need some finishing by hand.


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## AndyT

rxh":2mplx76q said:


> Andy,
> As I've spent rather a lot of time on metalwork this year I also thought I should get back to some woodwork so I have made a start on making a mandolin, which will be a new adventure for me. Incidentally, before I got a woodturning lathe I did some woodturning using the Barnes, including making two start barley twists with a small router strapped to the carriage and the gear train set to deliver the required pitch. This Heath Robinson type idea worked quite well although the twists did need some finishing by hand.


Now that sounds clever...I don't suppose you took any photos?


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## bugbear

AndyT":es2jnxft said:


> rxh":es2jnxft said:
> 
> 
> 
> Andy,
> As I've spent rather a lot of time on metalwork this year I also thought I should get back to some woodwork so I have made a start on making a mandolin, which will be a new adventure for me. Incidentally, before I got a woodturning lathe I did some woodturning using the Barnes, including making two start barley twists with a small router strapped to the carriage and the gear train set to deliver the required pitch. This Heath Robinson type idea worked quite well although the twists did need some finishing by hand.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that sounds clever...I don't suppose you took any photos?
Click to expand...


It's normal screw cutting, same as you'd do to make a big wood screw for an old fashioned vise.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/wood ... se-131710/


Again, the mandrel handle would be a useful adjunct.

EDIT; For very coarse threads turning the lead screw directly, and allow the lead screw to drive the mandrel is better.

BugBear


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## AndyT

Thanks yet again BB - my list of possible projects gets ever longer!


That all looks practical and possible. Maybe a bit noisy, but it would also be possible to set up a v-cutter, held in the toolpost, to cut a thread the way you would with a screw box. The big advantage would be that, with the lead screw controlling the rate of advance, you could take successively deeper cuts. You can't do that with a box, as you need a section of complete thread to engage with the existing thread at the back of the box. 

Food for thought indeed!


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## bugbear

AndyT":2kztmjp3 said:


> Thanks yet again BB - my list of possible projects gets ever longer!
> 
> 
> That all looks practical and possible. Maybe a bit noisy, but it would also be possible to set up a v-cutter, held in the toolpost, to cut a thread the way you would with a screw box. The big advantage would be that, with the lead screw controlling the rate of advance, you could take successively deeper cuts. You can't do that with a box, as you need a section of complete thread to engage with the existing thread at the back of the box.
> 
> Food for thought indeed!



V cutters are famously tricky to sharpen; I wonder if something like a #735 twin blade grooving arrangement is possible?

(personally I'd go with the noise)

BugBear


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## AndyT

Alas, my only 735 lacks the twin blade grooving attachment! I must be more careful with my future purchases. ;-)


Possibly the principle could be adapted. But then I do have a Beale 60° cutter and a small,easily clamped electric router...


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## Richard T

Very interested in your slot cutting Andy - what are the teeth like on that thingy?


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## AndyT

Richard T":3h7p8zdh said:


> Very interested in your slot cutting Andy - what are the teeth like on that thingy?


They are just like short stiff bits of hacksaw blade but with the advantage of coming in a selection of thicknesses so you can make a slot in one cut without faffing about trying to widen a thin sawcut. It cuts on the push stroke. 

Fairly common on eBay which is where this one came from. Not to be confused with the similarly named offering from Apple, which versatile as it is doesn't do Slitting, Slotting, Scraping or Sawing!


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## dickm

rxh":22kk4m5d said:


> Dick
> Yes, the possibility the errors might stack up too much is a concern. However I have checked the adaptor in place on the Arundel with a dial gauge and it is running reasonably concentric but of course the real test will be how the chuck runs when fitted …..


Glad to hear it worked. Either you are a very lucky/very skillful guy, or your 3-jaw is well above normal accuracy! 
Have to confess that the only way I've managed to get really accurate adaptors for the Mystro relies on the fact that it and Super 7 have the same nose thread. So once the internal thread is done, it can be fixed directly on to the Super 7 nose and the external thread and register almost have to be right. Only worry is if one day, an adaptor tightens itself on to the Super 7 nose and won't come off.................


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## rxh

Thanks Dick,
It's good luck, I think, plus a good 3-jaw (it bears the proud markings: The Crown Chuck, made in England).

Andy,
'Sorry, I have no pictures of my arrangement but it was rather like that shown in BB's link. I used the central part of a very old B&D 1/4" router with a round nosed bit. Of course it was a very noisy and dusty process. I made twisted columns for the sides of a clock case - one right handed and one left handed. Unfortunately I can't find a picture of the finished job but here is a photo of the test piece I made first to try out the procedure. 

Another thing I fancy trying sometime is making a clock with a wooden mechanism - using the router on the lathe again with a suitably shaped bit to cut the gear teeth. An indexing plate will also be needed.


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## rxh

I have made this mandrel handle following the suggestion by BB. The turning was mainly done by hand using a 1/2" HSS woodturning scraper, running at about 700 rpm. Andy, I think this technique would work well for you for making a permanent replacement for your broken handle.


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## AndyT

If I can make something as tidy as that I will be very pleased!

I have been
looking in various books and YouTube videos for information on contour turning and have found almost nothing on how to do it by hand. Several videos on ball turning with a special attachment but after that it's CNC all the way. I have managed to turn a ball tip on the end of some 3/8" rod by cutting a groove and then enlarging it with files and rounding over the free end. 

I shall now give scraping a go as well - I have a good strong Sorby scraper with carbide tips which might be suitable.


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## xy mosian

Andy, I am not sure if you have come across this:- http://www.scribd.com/doc/77649397/manu ... 00watsrich.
"Manual of the Hnad Lathe", the first chapter deals with the foot lathe. 
There is a wealth of skill on display daily on these forum, not least in this thread. Keep up the good work.
xy


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## AndyT

Thanks Xy, that's one I'd not found. I especially liked this statement on p 16:


"There is no family in this country that would not find it economy to have a foot lathe in the house where the members have mechanical tastes - not necessarily the male members, for ladies use foot lathes, in Europe, with the greatest dexterity."


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## xy mosian

Andy, I had missed that statement but I quite like it.
xy


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## DTR

rxh":amcusibw said:


> I have made this mandrel handle following the suggestion by BB. The turning was mainly done by hand using a 1/2" HSS woodturning scraper, running at about 700 rpm. Andy, I think this technique would work well for you for making a permanent replacement for your broken handle.



Nice handle, how does it mount to the spindle?


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## rxh

Thanks Dave.
The spindle has a projecting key that engages with slots in the gear wheels. I made the handle with a similar slot.


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## jimi43

Boy did I miss a great thread...and am I pleased to be coming to it now.

Sorry I wasn't around Andy when you asked the question about the degreaser...bit late now but Liquid Engineering asked me to do a review of another of their products...which was their degreaser!!! I still have it to test and could have sent it to you as I didn't have anything to degrease at the time but I think it's too late now!

You have done a wonderful job so far and in particular...your skill at screw turning clearly shows you have the knack for it! Great stuff indeed.

I am at work at the moment but want to go back and read this more carefully...it is a great journal!

Jimi


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