# Can anyone recommend a decent MiG welder?



## graduate_owner

Hi everyone, I'm mainly into woodworking, but occasionally use metalworking kit such as milling machine and lathe. I have a stick welder which is great for thick steel, say 3mm upwards, but I'm thinking about a MiG welder for thinner stuff. I suspect I would use it more than my stick welder, but mainly for thin steel or tack welding thick stuff prior to stick welding.

So, does anyone have experience of the Clarke welders that Machine Mart sell. I've been wary of Clarke stuff for a while, and most Clarke stuff I've had has been pretty poor quality. However I understand the Clarke welders are made in Italy, not Chaiwan, and are re-badged Telwin machines which have a decent reputation - so I'm told. I've also been told the wire feed motors on some of these cheap welders are better suited to cheap cassette players than welders.


As it will be for occasional use, I'm reluctant to spend more than about £200. However if £200 buys me rubbish then I'll go to perhaps £250 - £300, or alternatively stay with my stick welder. 
Also, is it really expensive to weld with disposable canisters of gas, even for occasional use? Should I bite the bullet and go for the range which takes full size gas bottles?

Any opinions would be much appreciated.

K


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## Boatfixer

A line of Vets equipment that I built prototypes for for a mate has taken over most of my workshop time as sales have taken off. The majority were welded up with one of the Clarke Turbo 135 welders which seemed to take everything I could throw at it, running all day welding 5mm plate. If I had not been offered a huge Hobart 3 phase welder at a knock down price I would still be using it daily. The steel fabricators in the next door unit to mine sometimes borrow it if they need a small site welder it is that good.....

I found the small disposable bottles were fine for occasional use. In fact it was a while before I upgraded to the larger hobby gas bottles you can get rent free. Commercial size bottles would be overkill on a small welder and cost a lot with rental. I was told that if I was using 3 disposables a month then it was better to get the hobby gas. If I were you I would give it a try first and see how much you use.

The other thing that has come down in price over the past few years is auto darkening head shields. mine was in the region of £40 from Toolstation and having both hands free to steady the torch without having the head nod to flip the shield down is priceless....


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## spinks

you wont go far wront with this set up....light and portable but man enough for what your looking at http://www.welduk.com/Details.asp?ProductID=691 gas, I would recommend a rent free 1/2 size bottle....but as stated before see how much hobby gas you use.


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## AES

@ graduate_owner:

I don't have any type of welder (yet - I'm working on SWMBO!) but I've been doing a fair bit of reading on the DIY Mig Welding site. There the name Clark often comes up and 9 times out of 10 it attracts positive comments.

Although you already have a stick welder and therefore probably have the necessary helmet, gloves, etc, from what I read on that site your 200 quid budget may be a bit light by the time you add in gas bottle, regulator, possibly a better torch, and maybe more safety gear, etc.

The link to tghat site is within the "One Stop Reference" links at the very top of this section but to save you looking, here you go.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

AES


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## graduate_owner

Once again, helpful advice from guys with experience. Many thanks. This forum is really fantastic - so glad I found it.

K


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## RogerBoyle

Guys can I ask what is gassless mig welding about 
And what type of welder would you guys recommend for some one who has never welded anything in his life before

Roger


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## Tinbasher

Gas shielded MIG uses bare wire with the arc shielded by a stream of gas.

Gasless MIG uses a wire coated by a flux which melts and shields the arc. Almost like continuous stick welding.

Gasless is only useful for welding mild steel, with gas shielded you can weld Stainless by using C02 shield gas and Aluminium by using Argon or various gas mixes.


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## stevep

Roger, Mig is the easiest to pick up for a complete newcomer to welding. If you are thinking about it though don't buy a gas less one. This process can take even experienced welders a little time to master compared to a solid wire.


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## marcros

can you use the gas migs outside though, if there is more than a breath of wind. that has to be an advantage of gasless to me


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## AES

That's what I understood too. Purely by reading on that site I linked to, if you need to weld outside and if there's more than a slight breeze at the time, the protecting gas shield will get blown away from the actual melted metal area leading to all sorts of joint problems.

On the other hand, apparently gas in one-time small bottles is very expensive compared to the expense of buying the correct regulator/connector and renting a large bottle and getting it refilled with whatever gas you need (e.g. CO2).

That site I linked to really is a mine of info and seems to attract both professional welders and hobbyists from wannabe to very experienced level.

Krgds
AES


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## porker

The Clarke mig welders have a fairly good reputation and I have one of the larger ones (205te) which I have found fine. Before the Clarke I had a SIP machine which was not that good and generally appears to have issues with the wire feed mechanism due to voltage stability but there are a lot of people who have improved their machines with mods. Size will depend on what you want to weld. For car bodywork you need to go down to around 30amps otherwise you will get burn through.
As mentioned before disposable gas is expensive and a canister will only last for a few minutes. You may be able to get a good deal on a bigger cylinder local to you and although initial costs may be high it will work out much cheaper in the long run.
I use argoshield light which is a mix of argon and co2. You can use 'pub gas' co2 which is cheap if you can find a supply but the welds will not be as good. Some people use gassless which needs special wire. The upside is there is no gas to blow away. The downside is that the welds can be splattery.
Some good tutorials on http://www.mig-welding.co.uk


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## RogerBoyle

stevep":2h4ehq88 said:


> Roger, Mig is the easiest to pick up for a complete newcomer to welding. If you are thinking about it though don't buy a gas less one. This process can take even experienced welders a little time to master compared to a solid wire.



Many thanks 

Roger


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## No skills

You will only have trouble welding outside on a windy day, a slight breeze can be shielded by your hand (with welding gloves!!!) anything windier than that and you will have to set up a shield (sheet of ply or something) to keep the worst of it off.

For gas bottles get the biggest rentable one you can afford or store if your going to spend any time making things, disposable bottles are an expensive waste of money. We have just gone from argoshield to coogar at work, dont use coogar the bottles dont last anywhere near as long (no we dont have any leaks).

If you can, get a mig that will use a full sized torch - its much more comfortable than the smaller crappy torches that seem the norm on diy welders. And of course their better quality.


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## Boatfixer

This was one of the last batches of vets trolleys put together with the little Clarke and disposable bottles - I would have used less than 3 bottles on this lot which is probably less than the monthly rental costs without gas of a commercial bottle. Mind you my present welder would do this lot in half the time but also uses a lot more gas as it has a full 400 amp torch. My suggestion would be if you get a small welder try out using the disposables and see how far you get. If you have a larger torch and welder it will use more gas in which case google hobbyweld - these are larger rent free bottles which are stocked by a lot of motor factors etc and will work out cheaper - you will need to buy a regulator for these.


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## dickm

Some more queries relating to Migs.
1. there's a reference to "Hobby" cylinders in one of the posts. What are these? I've only encountered the standard waist high or larger cylinders that need a mortgage to rent them from BOC, or the tiny disposables that don't last more than minutes on my SIP 140.

2. Since the BOC rental was prohibitive, I handed in my BOC Argoshield cylinder (and the bar-stewards charged me an extra month because it was returned on the 1st of the month, not the last day of the one before :evil: ). Got a new small regulator for disposables, but the setup was immediately borrowed by S-in-law. Got it back from him and went to do a job today, but the regulator does not seem to link to the shut-off valve in the end of the disposable. Should there be something like the pin on a Schraeder valve connector in the regulator to push in the shut-off? (and if so, where has it gone............??????)

3. Does anyone deal with Adamsgas? There's an agent just opened up near here, and it looks just about affordable for occasional use.


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## Boatfixer

1:- Hobbyweld - http://www.hobbyweld.co.uk/
2 :- I have not got one in front of me but yes - the regulator should open the bottle valve. I seem to remember the pin was part of the bottle valve and the regulator screwed down on it to push it open. I can have a look if I get to my shop tomorrow
3 :- No but they seem to be either an agent for Hobbyweld or offering a very similar product...


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## marcros

what is the typical price for a cylinder of hobbyweld 5 for instance?


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## Aled Dafis

I may be a little late to the party, but this website/forum is excellent for those new to welding

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

and is supported by a very reputable supplier - Weldequip - No connections, nor have I used them personally, but all reports are good. Their cheapest machine is a Clarke 160TM, which by all accounts is pretty decent for the money.

As mentioned above, I'd go for a machine with a proper "Euro" torch as they're far more durable and have a ready supply of consumables.

Personally, I use R-Tech Welding for all my welding kit/supplies at school (3xMIG's, 3xMMA's and an AC/DC TIG) and the service they provide is absolutely first class!! Unfortunately their machines are a little above your £2-300 budget.

However, if you're just going to be occasionally welding steel of 3mm and thicker, there's nothing wrong with an MMA welder, the modern inverter welders are amazing value, very compact and have almost no running overheads.

From my experience, the small disposable gas bottles are a complete waste of money, they have at most 15-20 minutes welding time. The Adams gas bottles are probably the best value for the hobbyist/occasional user, at around £40 deposit for the bottle (it's a while since I bought one though) and then about £30-40 for a refill. Bear in mind though that the Adams gas bottles are only filled to about 100Bar, whereas BOC fill to over 200Bar and thus last a lot longer (at a price of course, I think that we pay around £10 per month per bottle for rental and then around £80-100 fr a refill of Argshield Light).

Aled


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## Aled Dafis

I forgot to add that standard pub gas (CO2) is also useable and very cheap, but makes welding a little more difficult and results in lower quality welds.


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## graduate_owner

So is there a difference between pub gas and welding CO2, perhaps in the purity? Or is welding CO2 actually a mix of CO2 and Argon, with the Argon making the difference?

K


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## Aled Dafis

Yes, welding gas is an Argon/CO2 mix, I generally use Argoshield Llight (a BOC product) at school, which contains 5% Argon, and is generally good for welds up to around 6mm thick. For thicker metal, you'd be better off with 10 or even 15% Argon.


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## Myfordman

I've been very pleased with my Portamig 185. British made to order in the style of a brick outhouse.
Superb current control for the lightest of gauges up to 6mm or more in 12 steps

http://www.weldequip.com/portamig-mig-welders.htm


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## Aled Dafis

Yep, they're very well regarded, it was a toss up between the Portamig and the R-Tech kit when I was buying for school. In the end I went for the R-tech, as I could buy everything from them (3xMIG, 3xMMA,an AC/DC TIG, plasma, compressor etc.) and their support is second to none.


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## Eric The Viking

I don't get on with pub gas. My SIP 130 welder is s/h and came with an almost full bottle of Argoshield years ago, and a couple of pub bottles (CO2). Call me naive, but I didn't know about bottle rental at all. The Argoshield was great, but the CO2 was a horrible revelation - fizzing, spitting and rotten welds. I now use disposable cylinders of Argon/CO2 mix from Machine Mart (usually), but it's not as good as proper Argoshield (BOC add other gases I think in low concentrations). 

Love my auto-darkening helmet - can't imagine going back to the old sort now. My welding remains pretty rubbish though.

My twopence: I found a PTFE hose liner was a great improvement. The original was nylon I think and the wire moves far better now. Also I keep the big reels in warm and dry in the house until I need them.

I've done stainless but had little success: yes I can join it, but the weld seems to have less chromium in it and thus rusts. I may be using the wrong sort of stainless wire, but I've only come across one sort at Machine Mart. Does it help if you pre-heat? I'd heard you're supposed to.

E.


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## dickm

+1 for keeping the welding wire somewhere warm and dry. Real faff taking it on and off, but worth the effort to ensure smooth transit through the hose.

Like EtV, I also naively bought Mig plus cylinder not realising it involved keeping BOC in the luxury to which they had been accustomed  . They make the electricity compnanys look like public benefactors.


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## stevep

Erik there is no need to preheat stainless steel prior to welding it. You are correct in what you say about the wire, if it is the wrong grade then corrosion can occur. You will also find it difficult to weld if you are using co2, you need pure argon for the best results. The co2 could also be the cause of the corrosion.


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## Aled Dafis

Yes, pure Argon for Stainless and Aluminium. The range of filler wire availabe is mind boggling once you start looking into it, I have a Murex catalogue somewhere that lists all of their wire/rod ranges, it's about half an inch thick!!


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## Eric The Viking

Thanks chaps for that. Duly noted!

E.


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## antarmike

Why not a Gassless/ non gas set such as This

Best of both worlds. By being able to reverse the polarity of the Torch, one machine will change from Gasless to Gas operation.

Mind you I am spoiled running two Industrial Migs (one with spool on gun) on industrial sized bottles, 250A Tig water cooled on full sized bottle. 400A Copper wound DC MMA machine and a 250A Inverter DC MMA welder. And Oxy-Acetylene......

Using Pub CO2 is Mig welding (CO2 is inert and does not react in the weld. Metal Inert Gas) This gives poor penetration compared to using a mixed gas such as Argoshield universal where the gas takes place in a chemical reaction increasing the heat of the arc, depth of penetration and strength of the weld Using Argoshielsd is not technically MIG welding it is MAG welding (Metal Active Gas)

Although stainless can be welded with pure Argon, pure Argon is the most expensive shielding gas and better results are got cheaper By using Stainshield which is specifically designed for stainless. I would not recommend Argoshield light. BOC recommend it from 1mm metal thickness up to 5mm Max.. The BOC recommenation Of argoshield Universal is 1.6mm up to 10mm+ You lose out on performance on very thin steel, but for 99% of the time up to 5mm Universal is more capable and it can be pushed to 12mm I cannot see the point of limiting maximum thickness to only 5mm.


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## antarmike

After welding, stainless should always be pickled to return the surface of the welded area to a corrosion resistant state.

as here

It is never recommended to leave stainless as welded without this or similar treatment


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## Eric The Viking

Thanks Mike, 

It makes complete sense. I knew welding removed or didn't replace the Chromium content, but I had no idea you could do anything about it afterwards! 

Pickling paste sounds ideal - is it usually available from welding supplies outlets? I'll Google...


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## siggy_7

> Using Pub CO2 is Mig welding (CO2 is inert and does not react in the weld. Metal Inert Gas) This gives poor penetration compared to using a mixed gas such as Argoshield universal where the gas takes place in a chemical reaction increasing the heat of the arc, depth of penetration and strength of the weld Using Argoshielsd is not technically MIG welding it is MAG welding (Metal Active Gas)



I think this is a little mixed up? Argon and Helium are very inert gases (they are noble gases and due to the atomic structure are very non-reactive) which means you get excellent shielding from reactions, but poor penetration. CO2 isn't as inert; you get much better penetration at the expense of oxide formation. I think active gas welding generally refers to using oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen in controlled quantities?


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## Eric The Viking

Siggy is right. Welds are worse with CO2 for two reasons:

1. It *does* react to an extent. It's not inert (enough), unlike Argon (an inert gas for all practical purposes).
2. It conducts heat better than Argon, so cools the weld, arguably too much on its own.

Both are considered MIG welding, but technically only pure Argon is.


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## antarmike

Maybe my explanation was a bit simplistic. Argon produces a much better ionised gas which carries the arc. Argoshield contains oxygen as part of the mix. Oxygen is most definitely not inert.

The main problem with CO2 is the excessive spatter that gets ejected from the weld and the consequent time wasted cleaning up the weld area.


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## disco_monkey79

Just seen this thread - apologies if the following is too late to be of any use.

I have a small Clarke mig welder. Can't remember the model number, but it's non-turbo. Is the dual (gas and non-gas type). Not had to change over yet, but the guidebook makes it sound a doddle.

Not had any issues with it. It's never "birds-nested" the wire, as seems to be a common complaint with hobby welders.

My main gripe with it is - to change the power setting, you use 2 rocker switches (giving a total of 4 power settings). Inevitably, I find the best setting to be somewhere between the 4 available. If I ever buy another welder, I'll get one that sets the power via a turnable knob, to get more control over this aspect.

That said, I'm an extremely amateur welder, and someone with more skill may find no issues at all with the power settings/


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## No skills

I think your right TBH, I have a sip with the rocker switches at home - compared to the mig I use at work with 20 different settings its a pain in the posterior.


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## disco_monkey79

Glad it's not just my welding skills (or lack of them!)


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## dickm

Probably not relevant to many folk, but having finally decided to go the Hobbygas route, I dropped into McGregor engineering supplies in Elgin on Saturday as they are the cheaper, fairly local stockist. They were out of stock, and very reluctant to take money for when stock came in but asked me to ring yesterday to check. Rang them, sorted out the payment and the cylinder arrived in their van today. *Free* delivery over most of Aberdeenshire and Moray! Can't be bad - it's a 50 mile trip to Elgin. 
No connection with the company, but this seems like excellent service.


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## logan

At last a post I can answer with conviction!! 

I just tinker at woodwork cos I like it and everyone else on here seems so knowledgeable.

Welders: To start with for that budget - go with clarke. New will get you a half decent machine for that money and used mid range. Clarke a good range of hobby welders, I even have at home (like I don't weld enough at work....). If you use machinemart to buy it and your'e not in a rush, you can wait for a VAT free weekend deal and get 20% off them.

Used: always figure on new wire (don't buy cheap, you will regret it...) and a new wire liner and tips. If you will only use it occasionally, buy some tip dip too to keep the tip in decent nick between uses.

Gas arguments: Proper shield mix is preferable, will giver cleaner welds with less spatter and fewer micro inclusions, but CO2 will do for hobby stuff, not like you'll be welding the boiler on a nuclear reactor (I hope?!) as a first project. Can work out expensive on smaller bottles, I personally would go for a larger CO2 pub bottle for home work, but with the comments above noted.

Also, though get 0.8 wire and tips for hobby amp levels, should hit a happy medium with it.

And remember, the light at the end of the tunnel is almost always arc eye, so get a proper mask.


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## DTTech

We have a Clarke which I use occasinally, i'm not an accomplished welder by any means.

Ours has the toggle switches for the power and I concur with the comments before, i try and compensate with the feedrate which seems to help a bit.

I had no idea how long the little gas bottle was supposed to last - it was on th emachine when I started workign there - no record of it being changed and I didnt change it for ages - how are you supposed to tell? I disconected the pipe and turned it on and it makes a hissing sound. I have a new one and cant tell the difference between them - the weldgin result seems to be 'as bad' with either. I havnt notice any major splat problem (sorry, turning into thread hi-jak).

I'd say worse thing about our Clarke is the wire unspools and then kinks and then wont feed. I just cut it off and re-feed the wore/ A bit wasteful.


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## Benchwayze

My son says there's nothing wrong with most MiG welders and you get what you pay for. 

Don't know if that will help. But it's an observation made in good faith...


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## graduate_owner

I know you get trouble with wire feed if you let the wire go rusty. My friend keeps his mig welder in a heated workshop - I think his wife objected to it being stored in the airing cupboard. Either that, or remove the spool of wire each time and keep that indoors, but I don't know how much of a fiddle it is to do that, then re-fit it next time you need to weld,

K


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