# Axminster Trade Series AW10BSB2 Saw Bench - Blade Tilt



## DonJohnson (2 Sep 2014)

Just received this saw, and am very pleased with it. As I have limited space, I had to make a half-size rear table from a piece of kitchen bench top, but can now just about squeeze the saw into my part of the garage.

Apart from the side table drooping a bit - which doesn't seem to matter much as it is under the rip fence when wider cuts are made - I found everything pretty well setup as received. It does seem strange cutting on the 'other' side to how I mainly worked with my old Axminster BTS10PP saw (which is in the For Sale forum) and the opposite tilt direction will take some getting used to. :roll: 

The only query I have - which I vaguely recall being mentioned somewhere else - is that the blade seems to tilt slightly as it is raised. Reversing the adjusting handle slightly seems to bring it back to vertical. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon, or has my saw got a fault.

I've not enquired at Axminster yet - I thought I would seek advice or info' here first.


----------



## marcros (2 Sep 2014)

I think it is the way that the far end walks up the lead screw. My saw does similar- you can see it but it is spot on if measured at any point.


----------



## Zeddedhed (3 Sep 2014)

I have the AW12BSB2 which is the same saw but a bit bigger and mine does exactly the same thing. I'm going to call Axi today as there are a few other niggles.

The blade won't rise to the full stated height - should be 100mm only rises to 95
The table insert doesn't sit flush with the table. I know that everyone makes zero clearance inserts, but surely if paying £1k for a saw this sort of thing should be right?


----------



## DonJohnson (3 Sep 2014)

Zeddedhed":rpbhzlz4 said:


> I have the AW12BSB2 which is the same saw but a bit bigger and mine does exactly the same thing. I'm going to call Axi today as there are a few other niggles.
> 
> The blade won't rise to the full stated height - should be 100mm only rises to 95
> The table insert doesn't sit flush with the table. I know that everyone makes zero clearance inserts, but surely if paying £1k for a saw this sort of thing should be right?



Mine does reach the quoted 75mm, but I can feel a small 'lip' when sliding my finger from the insert to the table top.

I would be grateful if you would post the results of your conversations with Axi here - if you wish, please feel free to mention my original post to add weight to your query.


----------



## SPSlick (3 Sep 2014)

I also have the AW12BSB2. there has been a new version released. You can tell by the new version having six screws in the table insert rather than five. The new version insert is faulty so Axminster supplied me with some brass washers to use as shims. The only other problem I have is moving from rise to fall has two rotations of the wheel that does nothing. Is this just mine or is it the same with others.


----------



## Chunky Monkey (3 Sep 2014)

I had the same problem with the depth of cut, I initially had a max of 68mm and not the stated 75mm. There's a fairly easy adjustment on one of the worm drive gears just inside the cabinet. I now have mine set to 78mm just short of the maximum that was possible to achieve.

I could point out the part nos when I get home if anyone is interested.

Jon


----------



## Zeddedhed (3 Sep 2014)

Just spoken to Axi with my list of woes and received the following answers:

Q: When adjusting the rise and fall of the blade it does not maintain it's bevel setting. i.e. if the blade is fully up and bang on 90 digs as measured with a digital Gemred bevel box referenced from the table itself and I lower it to say 50mm it will then be at a different bevel angle, up to 1 deg out.

A: It's a limitation of the saw. It's not like you're buying an Altendorf for £10k.


Q: I cannot achieve the maximum stated depth of cut of 100mm

A: Do you need to cut 4" stock often then?


Q: The table insert plate is not flush with the table - it's about .5mm low.

A: Most people take them off and make their own inserts. Or you could shim it up.


All answers delivered politely but not really what I wanted to hear. I'm now awaiting a call back from one of their service engineers.

I'll keep you all posted.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (3 Sep 2014)

Yer man wasn't exactly on the ball, was he?


----------



## Zeddedhed (3 Sep 2014)

He was on something that's for sure.


----------



## DonJohnson (19 Sep 2014)

Coming back to my original query, I seem to be managing by reversing the raise/lower wheel after adjustment to get the blade 'looking' vertical.

I had intended to make a Zero Clearance Insert, for which the accepted method seems to be - put it in position and raise the blade to cut through it to get an exact width slot. But! If the blade 'leans' as it is raised, if it doesn't jam, then it will cut a slot wider than the actual blade width - which means it won't be Zero!

Any thoughts or experiences on this aspect, please ?


----------



## Myfordman (19 Sep 2014)

If it does not perform, and it does sound like it is bad, then send it back for a refund.


----------



## jdeacon (20 Sep 2014)

I made a zero-clearance insert for my recently acquired AW10BSB2. Apart from the insanely tall riving knife, the problems I faced were: the shallow shelf - meaning the insert had to be in two pieces, a thin piece to rest on the shelf and a thicker, smaller piece underneath for strength and rigidity; and the blade not dropping far enough for you to drop the insert in prior to raising the spinning blade. [later: What some people do is pop a smaller blade in to start the slot. But I don't have another blade yet. And mightn't a smaller blade also have a smaller kerf?]

The slot that got cut, using the blade supplied, measures about 2.9mm










I'll try to get down to the workshop and measure the wobble on my blade as it's raised.


----------



## jdeacon (20 Sep 2014)

No, my AW10BSB2 doesn't seem to move off vertical as it's raised. I tried three or four ups and downs. There might have been a deviation of half a degree on one transit, but it wasn't repeatable.
Here's my extemporized inclinometer:


----------



## DonJohnson (20 Sep 2014)

So that we have an actual view of the movement being discussed, I've uploaded a video http://youtu.be/k-_uV3OSHIk of my saw blade being moved up and down.
(Sorry about the church bells  )

It seems that if others do NOT have any tilting, then it may be a question of adjustment somewhere - but the earlier posts with the responses from the Axminster rep would seem to indicate that - he at least - is unaware of a procedure, or thinks the movement is acceptable


----------



## jdeacon (20 Sep 2014)

... and here's mine: http://youtu.be/h-QvE1ozzY8

It seems to rise without much deviation. Of course - backlash, etc. - it falls in a different plane, but apart from the jobble at the changeover from up to down it still seems to stay perpendicular. As far as I know, I always set the height by raising the blade.

I wondered if leaving the tilt lock unlocked would worsen things. I try that in the second part, but it doesn't seem to make a huge difference.

No bells, but an annoying squeak I should fix. (Although I've been trying for years to stop one wheel of the vertical mill from sounding like the famous cue from the Psycho soundrack and I haven't suceeded.)

[Later] Watching both videos, I'm wondering if yours is doing a more exagerated version of what mine is doing. Not so much changing its angle from rising to falling, but moving to a different plane.


----------



## John15 (20 Sep 2014)

Mine moves very slightly out of plumb at the very top of the rise. Something I hadn't noticed until reading this post. 

John


----------



## DonJohnson (20 Sep 2014)

jdeacon":krnygcry said:


> Watching both videos, I'm wondering if yours is doing a more exaggerated version of what mine is doing. Not so much changing its angle from rising to falling, but moving to a different plane.



I agree, and I'd be happy with yours, so perhaps I'll refer both these videos to Axminster for their comments and suggestions.

That is - of course - unless someone out there reading these posts already has the answer :roll:


----------



## Shrubby (20 Sep 2014)

To fix your squeaky rise & fall try a cycle lubricant called Progold - it's best on bare metal but a few applications will clean off any old oil and it attracts less dust and chips than other stuff
Matt


----------



## Wizard9999 (22 Sep 2014)

DonJohnson":9i7cqhvp said:


> jdeacon":9i7cqhvp said:
> 
> 
> > Watching both videos, I'm wondering if yours is doing a more exaggerated version of what mine is doing. Not so much changing its angle from rising to falling, but moving to a different plane.
> ...



Did you take this up with Axi? Did you get a somewhat more sympathetic hearing than Zeddedhed when you raised the issues? What with this thread and the somewhat dodgy planer thicknesser reported elsewhere, as somebody about to equip a workshop with a whole new suite of machines it's not increasing the chances of me going to Axi for any of them.

I do keep an eye on what Axi are pushing out through their Ebay shop and there are a number of returns that get listed, should I keep an eye out for your table saw? :wink: 

Terry.


----------



## DonJohnson (23 Sep 2014)

Wizard9999":3v4ww28o said:


> Did you take this up with Axi?
> I do keep an eye on what Axi are pushing out through their Ebay shop and there are a number of returns that get listed, should I keep an eye out for your table saw? :wink:
> Terry.



I've sent a detailed e-mail to Axy today, mentioning this Forum Topic, and will post results as and when. Hopefully you won't see my saw :roll:


----------



## Bluekingfisher (23 Sep 2014)

I'm afraid it's just another example of the sub standard kit we are expected to put up with here in the UK.

I have sent three machines back to the supplier, with no qualms 1. An 18" Jet bandsaw - because the paint was blistering in some parts. 2. a Hairline crack in a plate insert on a Jet Spindle moulder (They wouldn't send out a replacement part?????) 3. Pitted castings on Jet morticer. 

I really don't care what I pay for kit, but I expect it to be pristine when it arrives, anything other than the stated spec then I want to know why.

If we send them back for defects or for inaccurate descriptions then they will soon stop sending us poor kit. If we don't expect more of the same. 


I can't believe one poster was asked by Axi, How often do you make cuts 100mm deep?" my answer to that would have been, every single cut, so sort it out please.

We have the choice folks.


----------



## Wizard9999 (24 Sep 2014)

Bluekingfisher":2xzc7joc said:


> I'm afraid it's just another example of the sub standard kit we are expected to put up with here in the UK.
> 
> I have sent three machines back to the supplier, with no qualms 1. An 18" Jet bandsaw - because the paint was blistering in some parts. 2. a Hairline crack in a plate insert on a Jet Spindle moulder (They wouldn't send out a replacement part?????) 3. Pitted castings on Jet morticer.
> 
> ...



+1 to that.


----------



## Stuart (24 Sep 2014)

I think that every person who has a tool or machine supplied that requires the new owner "fettle" adjust, take it apart to insert shims etc. has every right to ring up the supplier and ask for it to be collected and have a new item supplied that has had a pre delivery check. If customers continually except poor service it becomes the standard service.


----------



## DonJohnson (25 Sep 2014)

Well, as promised, Axminster got back to me after I sent them this:

Sir,

I opened a topic on the UKWorkshop Forum regarding a problem I am having with the saw that I recently purchased from yourselves – see axminster-trade-series-aw10bsb2-saw-bench-blade-tilt-t83210.html – hoping that another user might have a simple solution.

It seems that others have experienced similar or related problems, but the responses received by correspondent Zeddedhed during a conversation with an Axminster representative were extremely disappointing, and not what the woodworking community would expect from your company.

Having not received any solutions from previous purchasers, I have therefore decided to pursue the subject directly with yourselves.

My problem is demonstrated graphically in the video shown at http://youtu.be/k-_uV3OSHIk where sideways movement of the saw blade is clearly evident as the raise/lower wheel is rotated. 

With most saws, when setting the normal blade position at 90 degrees to the bench top one would raise the blade to its highest position to achieve the greatest accuracy, and expect this angle to be maintained as the raise/lower wheel is rotated. As shown in the video, however, this expectation is not achieved.

Looking at the video posted by jdeacon - http://youtu.be/h-QvE1ozzY8 – some tilting occurs just as the blade starts to be lowered, but the amount is considerably less than on mine. This would seem to indicate that the mechanism can operate without (much) tilting, and that the effect may be corrected by adjustment somewhere.

I would assume that the designers/manufacturers must be aware of this problem and could therefore supply you/me with instructions on how to adjust the mechanism to correct the fault. If this is not the case, then I may have to consider returning the saw for exchange for another which does not have this problem.

I should point out that one of the aspects of this problem that was in fact mentioned by the Axminster representative who spoke to Zeddedhed in that users do make their own Zero Clearance Inserts for use with saws. Currently it would be impossible to create a slot exactly the width of the blade kerf in a ZCI due to the blade tilt as it is raised. Also, if a ZCI could be created with the correct width, the sideways pressure on the blade as it tilts when moved up and down could damage the blade or ZCI, or do something even more dangerous if the saw were started with the blade pressing against the ZCI.

I have received excellent service from Axminster in the past, and trust that you will give full and proper consideration to this current query as the answers mentioned earlier would not be acceptable.

As you may see from the post from Wizard9999, I have been asked to report any results of this query back to the UKWorksop Forum as I am sure the members there will be very interested.


with this reply:

Thank you for your email regarding the AW10BSB2 and the rise and fall mechanism.

The tilt you are experiencing is due to design and construction of the saw bench. The rise and fall mechanism is connected to the side of the motor housing which causes it to pivot slightly when activated. This design has been chosen as it is a much less expensive production than a double trunnion mount. This is not a fault with the saw, but one of the fabrication choices that we have decided to make to keep the production costs down and therefore the retail price.

The saw has been on the market with us for around 8 years now and has always used this rise and fall mechanism. As you say in your opening forum comment, it is something that you and others on the forum have been aware of. We are happy with the sales and overall comments that suggest this is an extremely popular saw and excellent value for the money. We do offer a range of Industrial spec machines which will all use the double trunnion mount but the price of course rises with the increased fabrication costs.

As it is the actual design of the saw, there is no adjustment that you can carry out to remove this. However operating the saw so you set your final height by rising the blade up to the height, rather than lowering it, should mitigate the backlash and movement you're experiencing.

Kind regards,

Simon Ayers
Specialist After Sales

So, it would appear that it is not a fault, but a 'design feature'. 

As I found, and as suggested in the penultimate sentence from Simon Ayers, I shall have to remember to always go down past and then raise the blade from below its intended height rather than just lower it. Not a big deal, but I think its rather unfair that *jdeacon* got a less drunken saw than mine ! :lol:


----------



## jdeacon (25 Sep 2014)

I guess the key tests before one decided to dig one's heels in and send the saw back are steadiness and rightness. If you stick to raising the blade and test things at, say, 5 mm intervals from a few mm up to maximum height (less a smidgeon) and find that there is no lateral movement of the blade once it is locked off at height - it's not going to make a wavy cut - and that the blade stays at the same angle - you've set it a zero degrees and it stays at zero degrees - you have a useable machine.

On the other hand I suspect that if I were in your position, I be sufficiently p***ed off that I'd send it back anyway. It might be a great price but at several hundred pounds perhaps one would expect a little less slop.


----------



## Wizard9999 (25 Sep 2014)

jdeacon":vzg76z3d said:


> On the other hand I suspect that if I were in your position, I be sufficiently p***ed off that I'd send it back anyway. It might be a great price but at several hundred pounds perhaps one would expect a little less slop.



+1 it is the attitude coming through in the reply that would really hack me off!

Axminster are running a planer / thicknesser event at their Basingstoke branch on Saturday that I plan to attend, as I am in the market for one. I will be printing the post quoting their reply and asking them what design flaws regarding the operation of their trade rated planer thicknessers they are aware of (similar to that which they are happy to admit to with their table saws).

Terry.


----------



## Wizard9999 (28 Sep 2014)

Wizard9999":z9jfn6qw said:


> Axminster are running a planer / thicknesser event at their Basingstoke branch on Saturday that I plan to attend, as I am in the market for one. I will be printing the post quoting their reply and asking them what design flaws regarding the operation of their trade rated planer thicknessers they are aware of (similar to that which they are happy to admit to with their table saws).



Well, given that nobody at the (so called P/T event*) at Axminster yesterday seemed to know very much about the equipment they sell, no sensible response. Manager was nice enough and said it wasn't a silly question, but couldn't provide any sort of detail about the machine's construction.

Terry.

* to avoid diverting this thread I won't go in o detail as to why I was so disappointing.


----------



## IBmatty (1 Oct 2014)

Interesting thread for me this, the reason being that I recently purchased one of these saws second hand. I believe that it's one of the first batches that Axi had. Not had much use as it was abandoned when a chap sadly passed away and has sat in a garage for 4 years since. I've refurbished the tables, changed the belt and replaced the missing blade-guard and riving knife (original was chopped so grooving is possible - i'm keeping it a that will be useful). I can only say that Axi have been brilliant in helping me get it all sorted. Parts arrived with me in France 3 days after speaking and ordering and it was them that suggested changing the belt and making sure the tension was right.

Not sure that adds much to the thread but there must be at least one chap at Axi who knows the machine and is helpful - he spent a lot of time on the phone talking me through getting it set up and running well especially considering I bought this second hand and the parts I bought came to about £20 including postage. 

After reading this thread I went out to the workshop last night and took a good look when raising and lowering the blade. I can hardly see any movement at all on mine. 
However, if I wind it all he way up before lowering it to where I want it does go out by 0.1 - 0.3 degree from square to the table, when tested with the little digital bevel box I got with it and my set square. I need to move the tilt wheel slightly to compensate. If I don't wind it all the way up first and get the height set on the up-wind, it stays at 90 (or whichever angle it's set to).

If mine works like that, then yours should be able to?


----------

