# tormek t3 not sharpening square



## jajoinery (3 Aug 2014)

hi guys iv had a tormek t3 for 12 months now, very good machine,
ideal for my needs, but ive found lately its not grinding square,
even on a block plane iron or 25mm chisel its seems to grinding the ends off the square,
any help or advice on how to rectify this? 
also what is the best bevel edge chisel? i do all types of carpentry and joinery
so something all round is what im after, i have red handled bahco chisels just now, 
are narex any good?


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## carlb40 (3 Aug 2014)

Sounds like the wheel might need truing up?


Best chisel? One that takes and holds a good edge without needing to be honed/ sharpened every five minutes. I currently use the Narex cabinet makers / mortice chisels on site 

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Nar ... tural.html

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Nar ... isels.html

Very pleased with the performance for the money.


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## jajoinery (3 Aug 2014)

Thanks for the reply carl, any idea how it can be re-trued? am i correct in thinking you need that stone grader?
and thanks for links, will take a look now


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (3 Aug 2014)

Tormek sell a diamond jointing tool. It is essential kit not just to true the wheel but to keep it clean. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Peter Sefton (3 Aug 2014)

I would go for the Tormek TT 50 diamond truing tool. This will re surface the stone and true it up leaving it cutting faster and parallel to the bar. We have a video on our website Wood Worker Workshop showing it in use, just search on TT 50 and click the video link. You may have had a grading stone when you bought your T3 but this changes the grit cutting rate and re flattens the stone a little. 

As for chisels we stock Narex and WoodRiver for general woodworking or Ashley Iles or Veritas for finer work. The Narex and WoodRiver I would put on par whist the AI are better and the Veritas excellent.

Any questions give us a call.

Cheers Peter


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## Zeddedhed (3 Aug 2014)

You may also want to check that the tool rest/bar is properly installed. I know that on my T3 it can sometimes not be at an exact right angle to the cutting face of the stone.
Mine is only threaded on one of the legs which has the knurled stop nut on it. Push this all the way in to it's hole and see if you can deflect the bar at all - it should move about 2 or 3 mm. You need to establish the correct alignment before tightening down the bar fully.
Hope this makes sense - I'm writing this without the machine in front of me so I may be using wrong terminology. Let me know if you need a fuller explanation.
Like the other guys said you definitely need a Truing tool for your Tormek as well if you want to get the best results from it.


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## Random Orbital Bob (3 Aug 2014)

Another very common problem with non square grinds is that the tool is not referenced properly in the SE76 square edge jig

Even with a trued stone and perfectly aligned jig one still needs to pay attention to finger pressure being even across the edge. The Recommended approach is to keep offering a square to the progressing grind to check for square and if out apply finger pressure on the long point til square

Also regrade the stone with the sp 650 rough side frequently as it quickly stops cutting when doing large surface area tools like plane irons


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## Harbo (3 Aug 2014)

I always mark a line with fine marker using an engineers square and grind to that.

Rod


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## jimi43 (3 Aug 2014)

Yup...the diamond truing thingy is vital...and it ain't cheap as with all things Tormek...but the wheel is revitalised as well as true after a few passes.

You can make one yourself...I did one out of scrap Corian and an old cheap coarse diamond thingy...







...and it work quite well...






....as you can see...






But then the Tormek ate the plate after two or three truing sessions and I bit the bullet and spent a whole voucher on the real thing.

For the effort needed to make one of these...I would recommend just buying one....you will need it.

Jimi


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## Cheshirechappie (4 Aug 2014)

Best b/e chisel for cabinetmaking benchwork is the Ashley Iles, but it's not a 'site' chisel. Best for site work probably Marples unbreakable plastic handled jobby.

The Tormek is a super machine, but the soft, friable wheels do wear very quickly. There are two possible approaches, both with pros and cons. 

The first is to dress the wheel as stated above. You end up with a true surface, but the act of trueing takes off quite a bit of abrasive, which accelerates wheel wear, and Tormek replacement wheels are not cheap. Don't forget to move the job side-to-side to even out wear on the wheel during grinding, too. 

The second approach is to become more freehand in your grinding technique. Just offer the edge to the wheel, keep it moving sideways, and bias grinding to where the wheel is least worn. Check progress of the partially-ground edge frequently with a small square and bevel angle gauge (mine is a piece of cardboard with notches at different bevel angles cut in the edges) until you have what you need. The advantages of this approach are speed (no jigs to set up) and slower wheel wear (all wear happens during grinding, none is lost during trueing). The downside is that you need to develop a bit of 'feel' for grinding to get a really straight edge, though for most chisels and cambered plane irons, you don't really need edges ground dead true anyway. (I've been using this freehand approach for years, and don't have any problems getting tool edges as straight and square as I need them.)

The two approaches could be combined by using freehand methods for most grinding, and trueing the wheel up before using a jigged set-up for anything that absolutely has to be straight and dead square (rebate plane irons, perhaps?).


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## jajoinery (4 Aug 2014)

Thank you all for the very helpful replies, very much appreciated, i think i have sussed the tormek problem,
although I think will purchase the tt50 an re-face the stone , its certainly cheaper than a new wheel


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## jimi43 (4 Aug 2014)

jajoinery":jdpy2jff said:


> Thank you all for the very helpful replies, very much appreciated, i think i have sussed the tormek problem,
> although I think will purchase the tt50 an re-face the stone , its certainly cheaper than a new wheel



It totally transforms a worn and out of true wheel instantly and for that alone..it's worth it.

I just think that Tormek take the urine with their pricing but hey ho...they are good.

Jimi


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## Peter Sefton (4 Aug 2014)

Do check the bar for level as suggested, but I assume if you have been using it happily in the past so you have found your way around the techniques. The TT 50 should only be used to take a skim of the wheel so you should keep the wheel for some time before changing it if it is looked after.


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## Random Orbital Bob (4 Aug 2014)

I'll give one final tip to speed up the truing AND reawakening the wheel cutting action WITHOUT doing a full on TT-50 true and that's use a diamond T-dresser.

Diamond T-dressers are available for about £8 from Axy et al. You wind the usb up till its about 1mm from the wheel in the wheel turning away from you position. Hold the dresser (diamond facing the wheel of course) dead flat on the usb and carefully advance till its abrading the wheel. Hold very strongly downwards or the upwardly moving wheel will attempt to lift it. This is a very very quick way of both truing and bringing back the cutting action of the wheel. The referencing off the usb keeps the wheel parallel and the lack of jigging speeds the process up. You control how much wheel you remove by time taken and pressure in pushing.

It works extremely well and I tend to do it first job so it doesn't mess up an already set usb distance in the middle of a grind.


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## Zeddedhed (5 Aug 2014)

Random, is the beastie you're referring to?




Presumably the aim is to anchor the tool between the guide bar and the wheel?
Not too sure if I understood your method correctly.....


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## Random Orbital Bob (5 Aug 2014)

That's the one, though my handle is shorter and stubbier but basically the same.

Method: Definitely not to jam the dresser between guide bar and wheel, rather rest (and hold down) the dresser on the guide bar while in contact with the wheel. The guide bar is so close to the wheel it acts like a platform upon which the dresser is referenced. As long as you're applying finger pressure both down (to avoid the wheel lifting the dresser) and inwards towards the wheel then it will dress the stone and not be shifted by the wheel.

I then simply eyeball the dresser and the guide bar and you can easily see if its parallel to the bar. Push into the wheel and that parallelism will be transferred to the wheel as it removes a thin layer of the ceramic binder and exposes fresh (sharp) abrasive.

It is then wise to refresh the water bath because a lot of ceramic ends up in it which then gets redistributed round the wheel, helping to reduce the efficiency of the cutting.


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## Zeddedhed (5 Aug 2014)

Cheers Random.That makes perfect sense now.
Unfortunately I need a bit longer than I used to to figure things out these days!!
Drinking beer all afternoon whilst lying in the sun and perusing tool catalogues is probably the reason!!


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## Random Orbital Bob (5 Aug 2014)

Me....making sense.....blimey that's a first


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## DTR (5 Aug 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":1twzomho said:


> I'll give one final tip to speed up the truing AND reawakening the wheel cutting action WITHOUT doing a full on TT-50 true and that's use a diamond T-dresser.
> 
> Diamond T-dressers are available for about £8 from Axy et al. You wind the usb up till its about 1mm from the wheel in the wheel turning away from you position. Hold the dresser (diamond facing the wheel of course) dead flat on the usb and carefully advance till its abrading the wheel. Hold very strongly downwards or the upwardly moving wheel will attempt to lift it. This is a very very quick way of both truing and bringing back the cutting action of the wheel. The referencing off the usb keeps the wheel parallel and the lack of jigging speeds the process up. You control how much wheel you remove by time taken and pressure in pushing.
> 
> It works extremely well and I tend to do it first job so it doesn't mess up an already set usb distance in the middle of a grind.



Is one of these suitable for use freehand on a bog standard cheapo grinder?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (5 Aug 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":2h2xpv2k said:


> I'll give one final tip to speed up the truing AND reawakening the wheel cutting action WITHOUT doing a full on TT-50 true and that's use a diamond T-dresser.
> 
> Diamond T-dressers are available for about £8 from Axy et al. You wind the usb up till its about 1mm from the wheel in the wheel turning away from you position. Hold the dresser (diamond facing the wheel of course) dead flat on the usb and carefully advance till its abrading the wheel. Hold very strongly downwards or the upwardly moving wheel will attempt to lift it. This is a very very quick way of both truing and bringing back the cutting action of the wheel. The referencing off the usb keeps the wheel parallel and the lack of jigging speeds the process up. You control how much wheel you remove by time taken and pressure in pushing.
> 
> It works extremely well and I tend to do it first job so it doesn't mess up an already set usb distance in the middle of a grind.



I have one of these as well as the Tormek dresser. Please note that the diamond T-bar is NOT a substitute for the T dresser. Used freehand, it is fine for the occasional cleaning of the T stone. However, since it follows the curves of the stone, it will soon exaggerate these and create an out-of-round wheel. All dressers need to be anchored, which is when they "turn" the wheel - like a lathe does. Unanchored, they do not create a round, more of an oval.

DTR, the T-dresser is perfect for a high speed grinder. I use one on my 8".

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## DTR (5 Aug 2014)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> [I have one of these as well as the Tormek dresser. Please note that the diamond T-bar is NOT a substitute for the T dresser. Used freehand, it is fine for the occasional cleaning of the T stone. However, since it follows the curves of the stone, it will soon exaggerate these and create an out-of-round wheel. All dressers need to be anchored, which is when they "turn" the wheel - like a lathe does. Unanchored, they do not create a round, more of an oval.
> 
> DTR, the T-dresser is perfect for a high speed grinder. I use one on my 8".
> 
> ...



Thanks Derek. But you say it must be anchored; I can see the logic in that but it's not something I've come across outside of this forum (and I'm not a complete stranger to the metalworking industry). How do you anchor it on a basic tool rest, do you use a jig?


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## Random Orbital Bob (5 Aug 2014)

I also use mine on the dry grinder. The reason for putting the usb so close to the wheel is to provide the reference necessary to keep it true. You provide the anchorage with firm hand pressure. I've used it many times and always check the wheel with a straight edge after. Bottom line, it works. I would never use it to true the wheel if it was badly gone (like after multiple heavy grinds with a big bowl gouge) and would always defer back to the truing tool but as a quick n dirty to keep you cutting to save time it is very fast and surprisingly accurate.

There are those that advocate using it on the wheel WITHOUT the water bath in place ie completely dry. The claim is that its far more abrasive and removes ceramic even faster. Personally I've not tried that method and don't believe any increase in speed is necessary over the method I've documented. Also, Tormek wheels aint cheap! I'm not inclined to have it disappear in 5mm increments!

But the reason I started experimenting with this method is that the SP650 is not in my view a particularly effective means of reawakening the stones cutting capacity. To really be effective you need to put some serous weight behind it and anyone who has attempted to grind a tool with a large surface area bevel will be familiar with how long it takes on the Tormek and that's with frequent use of the SP650 to bring the cut back. The key to efficient steel removal is to have a stone that is cutting constantly. The cutting efficiency dulls very quickly with wide surface area tools (big plane irons, skew chisels, HSS etc). Bear in mind this is more about shaping than sharpening. Just honing an already happy edge with the stone graded to 1000 grit is a doddle. I'm talking about regrinding the bevel of a large plane iron or similar, not a secondary bevel 1mm wide. And before anybody suggests it, I already have the Silicon blackstone wheel which is of course designed for HSS. Almost imperceptibly better than the regular grey wheel is my experience. At circa £100-£120, that's quite a luxury and in my view poor value for money.

The Tormek is an interesting beast in that its very flexible over a great many edge tools, from lawn mower blades to scissors etc. But what its absolutely useless for is removing lots of steel, particularly HSS and just forget carbide altogether. Great at sharpening an already close to edge and tickling it back to wonderful. It's the one area where I've always been a little grumpy with Sweden's marketing because they definitely would have you believe its the panacea to all things sharpening.

Pitted against doing it all by hand though.....sore finger territory......lets not go there


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## Sheffield Tony (5 Aug 2014)

How much does it matter if the wheel is out of round ?

Obviously it is good if it is not tapered, dished etc across the width. Dressing freehand could attend to that. I have a low cost Tormek shaped object which has a wheel with a distinct wobble. A plane iron, for example, mounted in the jig, rides up and down a little as the wheel goes round. All this will do is make the bevel slighly less concave, no ?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (5 Aug 2014)

DTR":396q1zkn said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > [I have one of these as well as the Tormek dresser. Please note that the diamond T-bar is NOT a substitute for the T dresser. Used freehand, it is fine for the occasional cleaning of the T stone. However, since it follows the curves of the stone, it will soon exaggerate these and create an out-of-round wheel. All dressers need to be anchored, which is when they "turn" the wheel - like a lathe does. Unanchored, they do not create a round, more of an oval.
> ...



To anchor simply means to prevent movement. That means clamping on the Tormek (which is not possible with the diamond T-bar, and therefore it is only for the occasional freshening of the surface, not truing it, per se), or held firmly on a tool rest (as in the case of a high speed grinder). 

To use the wheel out of round is possible, but it quickly becomes a pain in the wotsit as it is difficult to maintain an even pressure.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Random Orbital Bob (5 Aug 2014)

The out of trueness and/or runout is OK if the surface of the wheel is still flat on to the tool egde. In other words wobble from side to side that doesn't change the circle being described by the outer edge is permissible and all Tormeks I've seen have it to a greater or lesser degree. When you true the wheel, the diamond cutter is fixed to the usb and therefore will scrape the plane of the wheel parallel to the usb. A little bit of side to side movement wont affect any grinding. If there is eccentric movement up and down and it cant be trued then you need to look at the bearings, bushings in the wheel hub etc to find the problem.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Aug 2014)

My Tormek wheel is distinctly egg-shaped, and still grinds perfectly OK as long as I 'freehand'. I haven't dressed it in years. It's about time I did, really.

Now - I most certainly do not suggest this is best practice - it most certainly isn't! - but on a slow-speed grinder, quite a lot of eccentricity can be tolerated without marked ill effects on the ground tool if freehanding, I've found. Provided the wheel periphery - the grinding surface - is reasonably flat and straight, you could grind tools in jigs quite happily, too. 

(That's most emphatically NOT the case for high-speed grinders. Significant wheel eccentricity is likely to lead to a lot of vibration, and bringing a tool to bear for grinding on a rapidly-rotating out-of-round wheel is likely to be downright dangerous.)


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## Random Orbital Bob (5 Aug 2014)

agreed. With the slow grinding and hand control you can achieve a lot without getting too mad about perfect truing. Even when sharpening my bowl gouges, they scoop out the middle over time and it doesn't seem to affect the grind that much. I probably true it about 3 times a year these days. In fact the thing which normally drives a truing is when I need to sharpen a bench tool that requires a dead flat surface.


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## paulm (5 Aug 2014)

Glad I upgraded to a Sorby ProEdge, it's a lot less faffing about and much more efficient at a multitude of tasks ! 

Cheers, Paul


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## jimi43 (5 Aug 2014)

paulm":3dhp8rr4 said:


> Glad I upgraded to a Sorby ProEdge, it's a lot less faffing about and much more efficient at a multitude of tasks !
> 
> Cheers, Paul



I looked at this on the web and came to the conclusion it is nothing but a posh belt sander with a decent jig system and selection of specialist belts....

Tell me I'm wrong Paul!!

At £250 it's a bit expensive if that's all it is.

Jimi


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## paulm (5 Aug 2014)

That indeed is all it is Jimi !

However, it's high quality, robust and accurate with a well made repeatable jig and table indexing system, so a world apart from a cheapie linisher, though they have their uses too !

Cheers, Paul


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## CStanford (5 Aug 2014)

jajoinery":2cj53i17 said:


> hi guys iv had a tormek t3 for 12 months now, very good machine,
> ideal for my needs, but ive found lately its not grinding square,
> even on a block plane iron or 25mm chisel its seems to grinding the ends off the square,
> any help or advice on how to rectify this?
> ...



I don't know much about this machine but I do know that you don't need a jig to grind square on a regular grinder. All you need is an accurate combination or try square to check progress. Lean on the high side a bit until it's even, make a couple of finishing passes, done.


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## AndyT (5 Aug 2014)

Cheshirechappie":s623iklu said:


> Now - I most certainly do not suggest this is best practice - it most certainly isn't! - but on a slow-speed grinder, quite a lot of eccentricity can be tolerated without marked ill effects on the ground tool if freehanding, I've found. Provided the wheel periphery - the grinding surface - is reasonably flat and straight, you could grind tools in jigs quite happily, too.



Agreed - to add a further evidence point - in the woodworking shop at school there was a big old wet grinder of about 20" diameter. It had a sort of parallel linkage into which a plane iron could be clamped. As the wheel slowly turned the operator could slew the holder from side to side while the linkage kept the ground edge at right angles to the wheel and water dripped onto it from above. 

The iron, in its holder, used to bounce up and down quite a lot as the wheel turned, but to no ill effect.


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## David C (5 Aug 2014)

I expect someone else has said this already but..............

A proper Tormek diamond dresser seems essential to me.

It keeps the wheel surface parallel to the guide bar, which allows the square edge jig to do its job and produce square edges.

It also freshens the surface of the wheel so that it cuts efficiently. Otherwise the surface becomes glazed and clogged surprisingly quickly.

I should probably explain that large numbers of tool kits are set up in my workshop every year, so we do a great deal more grinding than the average bod.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## Peter Sefton (5 Aug 2014)

The old Tormek diamond truing tool used to just bob up and down and follow the shape of the wheel. The TT 50 is so much better and when the Tormek is set up well it is a very accurate grinder. I feel very few people could replicate the quality and constancy of this grinding by hand and eye. I feel the steel in your tools will last a lot longer if you use a Tormek grinder and a honing guide. So much steel used to disappear in sparks, I just see £s disappearing when I see people grinding on a fast bench grinder.

I am going to stop at this point before it turns into a sharpening war!


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## CStanford (5 Aug 2014)

All grinding wheels need to be kept clean and unglazed. 

Otherwise, does the Tormek not have a plain tool rest? If so, I'd suggest using it and testing the tool being ground with a try square and correcting where necessary. This has represented orthodoxy for quite some time now. Whatever jig this machine is equipped with appears to represent an unnecessary layer of complexity to a process that takes a morning to learn if not less.


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## CStanford (5 Aug 2014)

Peter Sefton":3vunoahs said:


> The old Tormek diamond truing tool used to just bob up and down and follow the shape of the wheel. The TT 50 is so much better and when the Tormek is set up well it is a very accurate grinder. I feel very few people could replicate the quality and constancy of this grinding by hand and eye. I feel the steel in your tools will last a lot longer if you use a Tormek grinder and a honing guide. So much steel used to disappear in sparks, I just see £s disappearing when I see people grinding on a fast bench grinder.
> 
> I am going to stop at this point before it turns into a sharpening war!



Well, first of all unless a cutter is nicked the grinder should *never* remove length. One never grinds to produce a burr though with a large wheeled grinder it is sometimes difficult. One grinds to restore the hollow and stops just short of the edge. No burr is produced. The grinder reduces thickness at the hollow, but never length unless a nick is being ground all the way out.

Anybody regularly 'losing steel' on any grinder has a fundamental misunderstanding of the tool and the process being performed with it.

Honing is the only operation that removes length from a tool. The length removed is basically the size of the burr produced.


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## Spindle (5 Aug 2014)

CStanford":ocunwl8f said:


> Anybody regularly 'losing steel' on any grinder has a fundamental misunderstanding of the tool and the process being performed with it.



Unless, of course, they are wood turners sharpening their turning tools :wink:


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## Spindle (5 Aug 2014)

Forget length - a grinder removes bulk from the tool and there's only so much bulk in any particular tool.


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## CStanford (5 Aug 2014)

The only operation that makes a tool shorter is honing. Restoring the hollow shouldn't remove one angstrom of steel at the end of a tool.

Tools and cutters get shorter but not because of grinding as long as it is being performed properly.


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## Peter Sefton (5 Aug 2014)

CStanford":2g0myo1c said:


> The only operation that makes a tool shorter is honing. Restoring the hollow shouldn't remove one angstrom of steel at the end of a tool.
> 
> Tools and cutters get shorter but not because of grinding as long as it is being performed properly.



You are right particularly the last half of the sentence, the issue with fast bench grinders are with people over heating the steel, grinding the wrong angle, grinding out of square or all three! 

As I said before "I feel very few people could replicate the quality and constancy of this grinding by hand and eye"

I was running one of my sharpening course's last week in a similar way I have been teaching this for the past twenty years, so many people can't grind and sharpen their tools, it's a skill that takes practice and often training. 

There are a lot of woodworkers with very nice tools but who may have never been shown how to keep them in tip top condition or what they are capable of when sharp and working properly. Reading forums will help but I am sure we didn't learn our own trades or professions by just reading about it.


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## woodbrains (5 Aug 2014)

CStanford":1q1x6gt1 said:


> Whatever jig this machine is equipped with appears to represent an unnecessary layer of complexity to a process that takes a morning to learn if not less.



Hello,

The straight edge jig on the Tormek is not complex, but does allow more pressure to be applied to the tool edge when grinding, without digging in, or losing control. This is in no way comparable to a dry, high speed grinder, where a light touch is needed, and constant water dipping to prevent loss of temper, a hand held tool facilitating this. Stating methods of work for one machine is not helpful for one which works on a totally different principle.

Mike.


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## CStanford (6 Aug 2014)

Constant water dripping to prevent loss of temper? 

Sky's falling again I see.


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## Graham Orm (6 Aug 2014)

Peter Sefton":196zkbqs said:


> I would go for the Tormek TT 50 diamond truing tool. This will re surface the stone and true it up leaving it cutting faster and parallel to the bar. We have a video on our website Wood Worker Workshop showing it in use, just search on TT 50 and click the video link. You may have had a grading stone when you bought your T3 but this changes the grit cutting rate and re flattens the stone a little.
> 
> As for chisels we stock Narex and WoodRiver for general woodworking or Ashley Iles or Veritas for finer work. The Narex and WoodRiver I would put on par whist the AI are better and the Veritas excellent.
> 
> ...



That's interesting Peter, you rate the Veritas over the AI?


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## Graham Orm (6 Aug 2014)

I have a set of Stanley Fat Max for site and Narex for the bench at home. Both do the job asked well. 

I ground them on a 5" grinder when new and have not ground them since. As mentioned by CStanford 'constant' dipping is very important, I find a quick dip is not enough to cool the tool and a swish is required too. The only visible tell tale that the steel is too hot is when it starts to go a straw colour before going blue. However, *it's too hot before it shows the straw colour* and so it's impossible to know just when any damage is done. I usually make a pass and swish, make a pass and swish. It's very satisfying when the job is done, the back flat and the edge honed. 

Message to Jacob if he's still around. I've freed myself of the shackles of the honing jig and now do all honing freehand. There's a confidence barrier to overcome. Once past it, it's easy peasy.


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## Peter Sefton (6 Aug 2014)

Grayorm":2qrqla3g said:


> Peter Sefton":2qrqla3g said:
> 
> 
> > I would go for the Tormek TT 50 diamond truing tool. This will re surface the stone and true it up leaving it cutting faster and parallel to the bar. We have a video on our website Wood Worker Workshop showing it in use, just search on TT 50 and click the video link. You may have had a grading stone when you bought your T3 but this changes the grit cutting rate and re flattens the stone a little.
> ...


 
The AI are a very good chisel excellent value for money. I have them myself and in all my students tool kits and they are the biggest seller in the shop, but the O1 Veritas are better.
The Veritas edge holds very well and are a pleasure to use, they are replacing my AI slowly in my own tool kit. I also have a PMV 11 but am happy with O1 for my work. We probably sell ten sets of AI to every 1 set of Veritas and don't get complaints from customers on either.

I wrote a short review for Nick Gibbs a couple of years ago.
http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... ch2013.pdf

Cheers Peter


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## woodbrains (6 Aug 2014)

Grayorm":13qrvljw said:


> I have a set of Stanley Fat Max for site and Narex for the bench at home. Both do the job asked well.
> 
> I ground them on a 5" grinder when new and have not ground them since. As mentioned by CStanford 'constant' dipping is very important, I find a quick dip is not enough to cool the tool and a swish is required too. The only visible tell tale that the steel is too hot is when it starts to go a straw colour before going blue. However, *it's too hot before it shows the straw colour* and so it's impossible to know just when any damage is done. I usually make a pass and swish, make a pass and swish. It's very satisfying when the job is done, the back flat and the edge honed.
> 
> Message to Jacob if he's still around. I've freed myself of the shackles of the honing jig and now do all honing freehand. There's a confidence barrier to overcome. Once past it, it's easy peasy.



Hello,

Not hat it matters, but it was me who mentioned the constant water dipping, Charles was being derisory about my comment, as usual. :lol: 

Mike.


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## CStanford (6 Aug 2014)

One does need to cool the steel but if it is understood that the goal is not to grind all the way to edge it's not nearly as dire as it is often made out to be. A dip every few passes is quite sufficient. Hold it there a second or two if good judgment indicates. No need for a 'constant' drip, running water mess, or $800+ wet grinders. Anybody with the requisite skill to fill a dash pot from a faucet should be in very good shape. Swooning or feeling faint at the prospect of burning steel is optional.

It shouldn't take more than two minutes to restore the hollow on anything from a Hock thickness iron on down to standard Stanley/Record. If it's taking longer than this the grinder is turning too slowly, the wheel is glazed, or the wheel is not coarse enough.

I don't particularly care for the combination of a large diameter wheel and relatively thin plane irons.

Very large diameter wheels featured a drip pot because they ground tools all the way to the edge practically immediately. One had no choice. A smaller diameter wheel lets you restore a hollow without producing a burr at the edge.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 Aug 2014)

Actually, I agree with Charles' comments on speed (lightening _will_ strike me down any second now!).

The only time I grind to the edge of a blade is on a Tormek. This is still my first choice for grinding hollows on plane and chisel blades, especially when re-freshing a hollow. A blade hollowed on the Tormek takes about 60 seconds to run through waterstones 1000 through 6000 and 13000. 

I also use an 8" half-speed grinder. This is used with a white 48 grit Norton white wheel. Grinding just requires a light touch. If the blade begins to feel warm, I withdraw it briefly. Often I can grind an entire blade to within 1mm of the edge without any water. Mostly some water is needed, but never a constant stream. 

Grinding is faster on the 8", but because this is not to the edge of the steel, honing is slower. Conversely, while grinding may be slower on the Tormek, honing is speeded up dramatically because there is less steel to remove. Overall, they balance out each other. From beginning (of grinding) to the end (of honing) should take about 3 - 5 minutes. Honing alone should take 1 - 2 minutes.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodbrains (6 Aug 2014)

Hello,

No disagreement about the use and speed of dry grinders, it is just that the OP has a TORMEK! It is horses for courses, but banging on about the correct use of a dry grinder is totally irrelevant in reference to the wet grinder. The Tormek is a good machine and achieves a similar result, in that the edge is being ground, but here all similarities end. Similarly, whingeing over the cost of these machines is also irrelevant, since the OP already owns the machine and just wants to get the best out of it. The Tormek is made in Sweden, and as we know, any manufacturing industry in the West is going to be expensive. Good for Tormek still being made in the country of origin! Bitchin' over the cost of woodwork machinery by Americans has only served to ruin that industry over there, so great brands like Powermatic, Delta, Oliver, General etc, make very little if anything in the countries of origin any anymore. Others like the fantastic Northfield and Yeats American long since disappeared. Now it seems all Americans are bitchin' about how they wish these machines were of the high quality they used to be, when they were all American! Don't put anyone off buying a good machine that is priced correctly for the country that produces them to actually exist.

It has been answered before, but just to reitterate, a truing device will have the Tormek running at its best. As for good all roung chisels, Footprint are very good for the money, and support a British brand, (I hope they are still being made, they went through a bit of a rough patch recently) or how about Henry Taylor. I have some of their Diamic brand firmer chisels and the steel in those is great. I should think their BE chisels should be good, and British!

Mike.


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## Graham Orm (6 Aug 2014)

woodbrains":3nyc3bz1 said:


> Grayorm":3nyc3bz1 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a set of Stanley Fat Max for site and Narex for the bench at home. Both do the job asked well.
> ...



OOPS Sorry Mike.


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## Graham Orm (6 Aug 2014)

woodbrains":r5h9lf38 said:


> Hello,
> 
> No disagreement about the use and speed of dry grinders, it is just that the OP has a TORMEK! It is horses for courses, but banging on about the correct use of a dry grinder is totally irrelevant in reference to the wet grinder. The Tormek is a good machine and achieves a similar result, in that the edge is being ground, but here all similarities end. Similarly, whingeing over the cost of these machines is also irrelevant, since the OP already owns the machine and just wants to get the best out of it. The Tormek is made in Sweden, and as we know, any manufacturing industry in the West is going to be expensive. Good for Tormek still being made in the country of origin! Bitchin' over the cost of woodwork machinery by Americans has only served to ruin that industry over there, so great brands like Powermatic, Delta, Oliver, General etc, make very little if anything in the countries of origin any anymore. Others like the fantastic Northfield and Yeats American long since disappeared. Now it seems all Americans are bitchin' about how they wish these machines were of the high quality they used to be, when they were all American! Don't put anyone off buying a good machine that is priced correctly for the country that produces them to actually exist.
> 
> ...



=D> =D> =D>


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## Graham Orm (6 Aug 2014)

Peter Sefton":27lzgbbx said:


> I wrote a short review for Nick Gibbs a couple of years ago.
> http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... ch2013.pdf
> 
> Cheers Peter



An interesting read Peter. I reckon the AI's are still best value for money from that write up. Those ash handled Sorby's look the best by far for me!


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## Peter Sefton (6 Aug 2014)

Grayorm":69e4gle8 said:


> Peter Sefton":69e4gle8 said:
> 
> 
> > I wrote a short review for Nick Gibbs a couple of years ago.
> ...



I agree AI are still the best value quality chisel available at that price point, the fact they are made in the UK by a family run business that support us retailers and their customers is just a bonus!


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## Jacob (13 Aug 2014)

Grayorm":1s1d9wn5 said:


> ...
> Message to Jacob if he's still around. I've freed myself of the shackles of the honing jig and now do all honing freehand. There's a confidence barrier to overcome. Once past it, it's easy peasy.


Still around. Been on me hols got back ce soir. Took 3 weeks to cycle there but 12 hours by train to return (South France). 
Quel surprise - yes it's easy freehand! It always was and always will be. Don't let them tell you otherwise. :shock:


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