# Unusual Mathieson tool......



## Argus (19 Jan 2012)

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This item is listed on e bay today as a 'chisel' (?)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VERY-UNUSUAL- ... 3a6effa36f

It's an unusual thing, shaped a bit like a gunstock-maker's float, but with no discernable cutting edges.

What's it used for?

Leather working or book binding, perhaps?
There's some bidding on it already, any ideas?


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## AndyT (19 Jan 2012)

Years ago there was a thread on here started by someone who had several of these. The consensus then was that they were gunstocker's floats.
The eBay seller has added a note saying that it his tool is a planemaker's float - but I can't see that a planemaker would need floats with a curved profile, so I think that is not right.


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## jimi43 (19 Jan 2012)

Now Andy...far be it from me to dent my reputation without digging through my collection of strange things and photograph a couple...







I understood that they were lead forming tools from the days when we used to poison the population with clean running water from a tap! :mrgreen: 

I am not entirely convinced yet and seeing the convex one on FleaBay reinforces my confusion....unless of course it is for clearing the inside of pipes....possible I guess....

My two are at the extremes of size....






...a narrow one and a very wide one....






They actually cut wood rather well now that I have sharpened them the best I can...






They are beautifully made tools...






...but strangely neither have a name nor mark of any sort...






Funnily enough, I was going to put them up on FleaBay in a few weeks...part of my programme to thin out my collection of strange and wonderful tools! I shall watch that auction with interest.

Jim


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## AndyT (19 Jan 2012)

I should have known it!
The South Eastern eBay Warehouse brings up the best again!

FWIW, here is the old thread I was remembering: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/gunsmith-floats-t29265.html - but you'll have to take my word for it that the tools being discussed there, and the one on eBay, and Jim's extensive collection, are all the same sort of thing, as the pictures are long gone. Not like planemaker's floats, which are flat bottomed, as this more useful thread showed: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/what-are-the-different-types-of-floats-t46511.html

I'll be watching too, just out of curiosity - these are not common tools.


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## Alf (19 Jan 2012)

I was vaguely thinking of lead piping myself, but put it down to some sort of Cluedo virus...


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## Argus (19 Jan 2012)

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.... and I thought that it was just me.

I have a few woodworking floats. Some I've bought or salvaged, some I made myself; they are fantastic tools when sharp, but I can't for the life of me see how these other tools are able to cut wood other than relying on the arris of the edge and the flat part behind, to burnish the cut edge. It just ain't a cutting edge to my way of thinking. At least there's no obvious way of sharpening them, other than finding a hone of exactly the same size and shape..

There's nothing that I can see in Salaman or any other of the literature in my collection or elsewhere to identify them, as they are distinct and different in shape to a woodworkers float and seem to come in a variey of shapes and sizes; both straight and curved, convex and concave.

At this time I'm inclined to the view that the shape was more important than the ability to cut and that the trade that used them seems to have vanished.

Keep the opinions coming. 


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## bugbear (20 Jan 2012)

Does no-one have an old (or reprint) Mathieson catalogue? - the answer surely lies there, since we know this example is made by them?

Edit; shortly after posting this question, THIS showed up in my saved searches...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI. ... SS:GB:1123

Anyone got deep pockets?

BugBear


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## AndyT (20 Jan 2012)

bugbear":y7dak69d said:


> Does no-one have an old (or reprint) Mathieson catalogue? - the answer surely lies there, since we know this example is made by them?
> 
> BugBear



That's just what I was thinking - in previous discussions the tools were unmarked - but I was rather hoping that you would have one, BB!

Looking into the question a bit further, it seems that Mathieson catalogues were magnificent hardback affairs running to several hundred pages, including coloured lithographs. Consequently, they are themselves desirable collectables, and the one on eBay at the moment will doubtless spiral skywards in price.

There was a Ken Roberts reprint in the 70s, but I expect that is also scarce and costly.

The only extracts I've found have been the pages about planes - interesting, but not much use here.


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## MIGNAL (20 Jan 2012)

Not Lead workers or Gunsmiths tools. They are used for shaping Horn or Bone/Ivory - probably when these materials were much more commonly used on both decorative and functional objects.


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## MIGNAL (20 Jan 2012)

Winning bid of £51. Quite a lot more than I thought it would attain. Still in demand I guess.


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## bugbear (20 Jan 2012)

MIGNAL":24tv6fs6 said:


> Winning bid of £51. Quite a lot more than I thought it would attain. Still in demand I guess.



I quite commonly (these days) buys tools at car boots precisely because I CAN'T identify them. I've been interested in tools for long enough that this is not a frequent occurrence.

I then have (probably) a rare tool, and (certainly) the thrill of the chase of identifying it.

Here's one of my more extreme cases, bought in 2007, and not identified:

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... =1#message

... until 2010

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... =1#message

I don't normally pay very much though, but others may have similar notions and larger wallets.

BugBear


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## Argus (20 Jan 2012)

MIGNAL":zn1arhsw said:


> Winning bid of £51. Quite a lot more than I thought it would attain. Still in demand I guess.




...... wait until the winner tries to make a gunstock........ =P~ =P~ =P~ =P~ 


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## Harbo (20 Jan 2012)

It's funny, having used scale rules all my life I never thought of them as tools?  

I have a couple of rules that the organization I worked for had specially made when we went over to metric.
They are metric scales to convert the old Imperial plan scales - 1:480, 1:63360, 1:10560 and 1:120.
Might puzzle somebody in the future?  

I also came across a 12" metal rule marked with the usual 8ths and 10ths but also 14ths and 28ths (and 12ths, 24ths and 48ths) - what was that used for?

Rod


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## jimi43 (20 Jan 2012)

Fifty one bleedin' squids!!! :shock: :shock: 

My LORD!!

Ok...maybe I will stick mine up on FleaBay now... :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## bugbear (23 Jan 2012)

Harbo":103as8o9 said:


> It's funny, having used scale rules all my life I never thought of them as tools?
> 
> I have a couple of rules that the organization I worked for had specially made when we went over to metric.
> They are metric scales to convert the old Imperial plan scales - 1:480, 1:63360, 1:10560 and 1:120.
> Might puzzle somebody in the future?



BTW, I have personally made a decision NEVER to own a pattern maker's shrink rule. Bloody dangerous item to have around the workshop.



> I also came across a 12" metal rule marked with the usual 8ths and 10ths but also 14ths and 28ths (and 12ths, 24ths and 48ths) - what was that used for?
> 
> Rod



I think before the emergence of consistent decimal systems, and calculators, many scales were rigged for ease of mental arithmetic, albeit in narrow circumstances - I don't know the circumstances where 14 (and its multiples) would be useful. Some 6" rules are smothered in scales of various kinds, which makes them kind of cute, but dodgy in practice.

A rule marked with both 12th and 10ths is a dangerous item.

BugBear


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## Alf (23 Jan 2012)

bugbear":2un79kzb said:


> BTW, I have personally made a decision NEVER to own a pattern maker's shrink rule. Bloody dangerous item to have around the workshop.


Chicken. I like to live on the edge - just not _too_ near it. The patternmaker's rule is the one on the very bottom of the stack on the hook, so happily the odds of ever picking it up at all are slim. :wink: 

I assume the final hammer price on the auction is as much to do with it being "Mathieson" as much as its function.


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## AndyT (25 Jan 2012)

I see that the Mathieson catalogue on eBay went for £158 + postage. 
If the "lucky" buyer is reading this, could you please find the page with the floats on and post a scan of it on here?


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## penwithchris (5 Feb 2014)

I have bought and sold several of these tools over the years
David Stanley Auctions nearly always has examples
A quick look through back catalogues shows a lot with two examples listed as ' an unusual cabinet maker's float by Herring and another' - lot 1068 - realised £24 only
I have seen whole sets being offered by David Stanley, and I just missed a set with 20 different profiles at a local car boot sale.
The cataloguer for David Stanley was usually pretty well up on correct descriptions, but I notice there is one being offered on another auction site at the moment as a 'glue spreader'?
I guess it has worked well for the seller for that purpose
I have always sold them as 'plane maker's floats' - it seems to give them that extra 'cachet' and tends to inflate the price :roll:


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## Bedrock (12 Feb 2014)

I bought 3 of these at Tony Murland's Felixstowe auction, last October. They were listed as cabinet maker's floats and cost me about £10 plus premium. I tried them without any tidying up, with the grain, without much success. I have now sharpened the front face of each tooth, on the flat one, again without much joy. The other two are hollow in X section.
Does anyone know what the correct sharpening method might be? I am working through filing a clearance angle behind the cutting face, but I wonder what the cutting theory is supposed to be. Is it similar to Bill Carter's square ground chisel?
One is just stamped "warranted cast steel", and the other two, "G. Tummon Sheffield Warranted cast steel" 
Any thoughts/advice would be much appreciated.
Mike


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## AndyT (12 Feb 2014)

Bedrock":2kzzb5bf said:


> I bought 3 of these at Tony Murland's Felixstowe auction, last October. They were listed as cabinet maker's floats and cost me about £10 plus premium. I tried them without any tidying up, with the grain, without much success. I have now sharpened the front face of each tooth, on the flat one, again without much joy. The other two are hollow in X section.
> Does anyone know what the correct sharpening method might be? I am working through filing a clearance angle behind the cutting face, but I wonder what the cutting theory is supposed to be. Is it similar to Bill Carter's square ground chisel?
> One is just stamped "warranted cast steel", and the other two, "G. Tummon Sheffield Warranted cast steel"
> Any thoughts/advice would be much appreciated.
> Mike



Hi and welcome

At the risk of going round in circles, I can offer this snippet about planemakers' floats - at Marples they used a special jig to hold a float for sharpening.

You can just about see one in the bottom right of this picture






from this old thread https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums...n-hawley-experience-t61355.html?hilit= hawley.

Also, there is a Lie-Nielsen video on how to sharpen floats here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGqDnXVA4c&feature=youtu.be


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## Bedrock (12 Feb 2014)

Andy
Thanks for the welcome and the speedy advice. As these floats are about 3/4" wide, does the width make any difference to sharpening. Logic might dictate not, but as purchased there is no relief behind the cutting edges.

Mike


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## AndyT (12 Feb 2014)

No idea I'm afraid - I don't have any floats - but someone else will know!


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## Argus (12 Feb 2014)

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Sadly, this has gone way off-topic. 

These latest plane makers floats bear no resemblance to the type of 'float' that started this all off............. and the original query as to whether they were intended to cut wood or the design intended to form a shape in something other than wood............

.


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## AndyT (12 Feb 2014)

Argus":3g25w2s4 said:


> .
> 
> Sadly, this has gone way off-topic.
> 
> ...



I don't agree with 'sadly'. It would be different if it was a new thread and the digression stopped the original poster's question being answered but when a new member chimes in on an old thread it usefully shows that they have read that thread (so nobody needs to repeat anything in it) and implies evidence that a search for the topic in question has brought a new enthusiast into the forum.


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## MIGNAL (12 Feb 2014)

Two schools of thought: one for working horn (from an old thread that I remember well):

about-time-we-had-a-mystery-tool-t16277-30.html

. . . and the Cabinet makers float:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/stor ... %20Shapers

Except they don't work as a cabinet makers float. Nor do I think that they are _that_ rare. This same tool has appeared on this forum a few times. There are also other makers besides Mathieson. 
Take your pick: wood or horn, maybe both.


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## Bedrock (12 Feb 2014)

Argus
Not sure what the stress here is. The 3 tools I have are almost identical to the original post, one is flat, the other two hollow. Like you, I have found that they don't seem to achieve much, as bought, hence my questions as to how to sharpen, and whether anyone knows what the theory of the cutting action might be, which might give an insight as to how they are best sharpened and used. If as has been suggested, they can be used for flattening/finishing with and across the grain, and actually are for gunstock making, in my limited knowledge of that world, the preferred timber is burr walnut. That would suggest that they could have useful applications in my pastime of furniture and toolmaking. They were bought on a whim when no-one else was in the saleroom was interested, but they are interesting, and potentially useful, not for decoration.
I have enough conflict in my working life without going in search of it in my leisure time.

Regards Mike


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## jimi43 (12 Feb 2014)

These things are definitely not wood floats...planemaker's floats or any other wooden floats.







I am convinced these are used in lead forming from the old days of lead piping to size the raw pipes for fitting into couplings.

They are not sharp...to sharpen (which I don't think would have been necessary), you can only do this by facing off the exposed face so that it moves downwards towards the flatter part of the indentations thus producing a 90 degree "sharp" edge. The same sort of sharp you get when you face off two edges of wood and the point at which they meet can then cut you.

I would love to be proven wrong though! I have two sitting there doing nothing!

Jim


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## n0legs (12 Feb 2014)

jimi43":ksqcb2mt said:


> These things are definitely not wood floats...planemaker's floats or any other wooden floats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My trade used to be called "Electrical Plumber" many moons ago due to the amount of lead plumbing and soldering work we used to do on the old cables, that were either steel tape armoured or steel wire armoured over a lead inner sheath then insulation then obviously the cores/conductors. 
When I was an apprentice we used all the tools an old school plumber would have used, many supplied by Frys the solder makers and some by Footprint, various other tools were in our kit and it's a long time ago now so can't remember who made what exactly.
The tool I think you mean is one I know as a skiving tool. It did look sort of similar and was used as you say for preparation and reduction of diameter of lead sheath/pipes for joining purposes. However due to the fact we were a nationalised company we did have a lot of pull and could get tools made and altered to suit our specific use for them. 
I may be wrong, just my opinion.


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## AndyT (13 Feb 2014)

Ok, this may be relevant to some people, irrelevant to others but here goes. 

I just remembered another place to look for information on various floats, what they were used for and how they were sharpened.

Back in 1847 Charles Holzapffel, maker of ornamental lathes and fine tools, published the first volume of what was going to be a six volume survey of materials and how they could be worked. Confusingly, the overall title of the series was "Turning and Mechanical Manipulation" - maybe so people who bought his lathes would buy his books - but the scope was always wide. Volume 2 covers all types of hand and machine cutting tools, including saws, planes, files etc. The series contains an extraordinary range of practical detail on how tools were made and used.

Charles died before completing the project, but his son John Jacob published volumes 4 and 5. Volume 6, which would have covered metalwork, never appeared. Original copies are costly but there have been various cheap reprints. Happily, volumes 1 to 4 are available as *free pdfs to download *from the wonderful "Masters' Library" at WK Fine Tools - http://www.wkfinetools.com/mLibrary/mLibrary_index-1.asp 

Delving into Volume 2, chapter XXVIII on Files includes section 2 on 'files of less usual kinds' including 'floats or single cut files used for ivory, horn and tortoiseshell.'

Illustrations show the planemaker's style of float, with its broad triangular section teeth, and do not show the 'Toblerone' style with separate teeth, but his remarks on sharpening tell us this - I'm summarising to keep it brief:

- Before sharpening, some floats need to be softened by heating so that they can be filed, then tempered again before use.
- Some floats are sharpened by raising a burr on each tooth, using a burnisher, as you would do on a cabinet scraper.

So just possibly, the separate-toothed floats would also need a burr on each tooth before they will work.

Whether that's true or not, I recommend the books for an insight into all sorts of byways - where else can you learn about the 'quannet' or 'White's perpetual file'?


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## MMUK (13 Feb 2014)

It's just come to me! I've seen farriers using tools similar to these to file horses hooves. Maybe this is what they are?


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## jimi43 (13 Feb 2014)

I think that is highly possible...and it would have to be something that created a fair amount of "shavings" because of the huge lands between the "teeth"

Jimi


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## MIGNAL (13 Feb 2014)

There is/was a similar type tool that I saw in a book on archery bow making. If you imagine a series of Stanley type blades placed into a wooden holder you'll get the idea. Not sure if it was a traditional tool or something that the author had come up with. 
Putting a burr on the Toblerone tool does seem to make sense. That might actually make them work. I suppose if Mathieson originally called these 'Cabinet makers floats', that's what they must be. It would be surprising if the makers of the actual tool didn't know of their purpose! Of course that would not necessarily stop other trades using them.


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## Bedrock (13 Feb 2014)

I think I will continue to file a clearance angle behind the cutting edge of each Toblerone, and see whether that makes a difference. The steel is not so hard that it can't be filed with a standard file, so either it has been annealed to take the hardness out, or perhaps it was designed for use on softer materials than hardwood.
I mentioned the maker's name - G. Tummon- in the hope that a tool historian might know whether that Sheffield tool maker specialised in any particular trade.
So far sharpening practice has been on the flat float. The idea of producing a clearance angle on a hollow section defeats me at the moment, but may be an indication that was never the intention.

Regards Mike


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## AndyT (13 Feb 2014)

I fear we may all be going round in circles here, but Bedrock, do your tools look like this?






If so, David Stanley thought they were gunstocker's floats according to this record of a sale in 2009 http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...ley-auctions/catalogue-id-2746803/lot-6774910

Maybe they are a special sort of tool, with no practical use except for selling and re-selling at auction!


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## MIGNAL (13 Feb 2014)

And they came flat, convex, concave and now curved. :?


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## Bedrock (13 Feb 2014)

Andy
No, much like Argus' original post and Mignal's photo yesterday.

Mike


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