# How to speed up mortise and tenon joinery?



## fobos8 (11 Jan 2010)

Hello all

I just finished the leg joints for my dining table. There are 8 haunched and mitres mortise and tenon joints.

Everything fits fine and looks tidy but it took me bloody ages. I have a few other table to make and I'd really like to know how I could speed up the process. It took me 2 whole days!

All the mortises were done by using router and by squaring the rounded ends with a chisel. 

The tenons were roughed out with a sliding chop saw with the depth stop set. The were finished on my Festool MFT by running my router over the guide rail and over the tenon cheeks. The rails were to long to pass over a router table so it was easier to slide the router over them.

The thing that took the longest were the fine tuning of fitting the tenons to the mortises.

When I fine tuned the first tenon on my router set up I lowered the height of the router 1/10 mm at a time until I got a perfect fit. Should I then have stuck with this setting and gone cut all the tenons the same? When I cut the first tenon I raised my router height and then lowered it a 1/10mm at a time again on the next tenon to get a perfect fit and so on for all the others.

Is it quicker to cut all the tenons slighly 1/64th over size with a router and then fit using a shoulder plane?

Is it quicker to have round mortises and round my tenons?

Can anyone make any comments of how to speed any or all of these processes up.

Have thought about Domino but for large pieces like a 1.8m by 1m table I think the dominos are too small.

Have thought about the Leigh FMT but I think a 12mm tenon is too small and the rails are too long aswell. 

Kind regards, Andrew


----------



## big soft moose (11 Jan 2010)

personally i'd do the mortices with a power morticer (the clue is in the name) that way the corners will already be square and you'll save the time spend squaring up

I'm also in the minority (possibly of one) who also use the morticer to cut the cheeks of the tenon then use a bandsaw to remove the waste - its unconventional but fast, repeatable and (assuming your marking out is right) accurate


----------



## MikeG. (11 Jan 2010)

With multiple M&Ts to do, I would make a template for the router for the mortices..........but not square up the corners. It is much easier to round over the corners of the tenons. If you need to go deeper than an extra-long cutter will allow, the drilling out and chiselling is so much easier when you have the routed hole as a guide.

Tenons are really quick and easy (and accurate) with a radial arm saw.........just about the only reason for having one rather than a SCMS in my view. I would expect to do 8 M&Ts in half a day, maybe, at a guess, using this method.

Mike

PS I've also done it BSM's way in green oak or in other big sections of timber. Very quick, but not quite so accurate would be my personal assessment.


----------



## fobos8 (11 Jan 2010)

Mike

What method do you use to round over your tenons? 

When you do your tenons with your radial arm saw I gues your just doing multiple passes to remove the stock. Aren't you left with ribbed saw marks all over your cheeks.

When you establshed the perfect cutting depth with you saw for the first tenon do you stick with that setting for all the others or do you fine tune each one?

Cheers, Andrew


----------



## mailee (11 Jan 2010)

I use a bench morticer for my mortices and a tennoning jig for the table saw. If the rails are too long for the tennoning jig I then use a Steve Maskery tennon jig with the router. HTH :wink:


----------



## Mike Wingate (11 Jan 2010)

I use a powermortiser for the mortiser. Cut the shoulders of the tenon on the bandsaw using the fence and mitre gauge. Set up a depth stop behind the blade, and cut the cheeks against the fence. I have used the RAsaw for the tenons with a wobble attachment. So much dust. I can cut the mortises with the RAS with the chuck and a lip and spur drill, as a horizontal borer. The speed is not fast enough to use an up spiral router bit. Have you seen 
Matthias Wandel's site
http://woodgears.ca/slot_mortiser/index.html
There is a you tube vid of his machine in use. Look at his other stuff. Amazing quality.


----------



## Chris Knight (12 Jan 2010)

Like Mike - for such a job I cut the mortises with a router and round the tenons with a rasp.

Your method for fine tuning the tenons sounds OK and I wouldn't normally both to check/change settings for each one unless I was unhappy with the mortise cutting - as below.

Mortises can be cut out of true with a router even using a half inch bit if you try to take large cuts in one go. I prefer a series of passes taking not more than 6mm depth at a time. Some suggest that it is better to plunge the bit to full depth just like drilling holes and then to join up the holes so cut. I have found this does not work for me and I get mortises out of vertical - very noticeable when the tenon is on the end of a long rail!


----------



## PAC1 (12 Jan 2010)

I use a mortiser (Axminster) to cut square mortices and haunches and then cut tenons up to 100mm on my tablesaw currently using my adaptation of Steve Maskery's Ultimate tenoning Jig. This allows the thickness of the tenons to be correct everytime because I have a spacer for every mortice bit plus the thickness of my saw blade.


----------



## woodbloke (12 Jan 2010)

M/t's _do_ take me a bit of time to do...but then I don't do them regularly, but only as each project dictates. If I had to do them on a day to day basis, then a dedicated mortiser has to be the quickest way for the mortises and a well set up bandsaw for cutting the tenons. I think that once both machines were set up, you could probably bang out a m/t joint in a couple of minutes - Rob


----------



## OPJ (12 Jan 2010)

If you're routing mortises with rounded corners then, I think it makes sense to round off your tenons with a rasp, as suggested. It is much easier than chopping in to a load of oak and it should save you some time.

All your mortises should be the same width/thickness and so, all your tenons should be cut to the same setting as well. If you only had one or two to trim then, I would just use a shoulder plane. Provided that your stock was accurately prepared to the same thickness, you shouldn't need to reset the depth of cut each time, unless I'm missing something...

If you've got a bandsaw, you could try ripping the cheeks on that. I would still prefer to cut the shoulders on a SCMS or RAS, as I don't always find the bandsaw accurate enough for this.

Another option might be to create your own 'loose tenons'. You'd need another jig to cut the mortise in the end of the rails although, because of the length, that may not be practical on this job. You could then thickness some stock to fit and round the arrises over with a router and/or table.


----------



## Benchwayze (12 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":ff619usm said:


> M/t's _do_ take me a bit of time to do...but then I don't do them regularly, but only as each project dictates. If I had to do them on a day to day basis, then a dedicated mortiser has to be the quickest way for the mortises and a well set up bandsaw for cutting the tenons. I think that once both machines were set up, you could probably bang out a m/t joint in a couple of minutes - Rob



Me too on this one. Once a bandsaw is set up for tenoning, it's a piece of cake. 

If I were to round tenons, I would do it the Kelly Mehler way. Pare the corners off downwards, and then round with a strip of coarse belt abrasive. And do them all at once of course. 

Regards
John


----------



## Chems (12 Jan 2010)

buy a domino. . . . . . . . .


----------



## MikeG. (12 Jan 2010)

Chems":2rrwizbf said:


> buy a domino. . . . . . . . .



:roll: 

For anyone else who doesn't want to cut and paste that into a Word document, then change the font size, just to be able to read it:



Chems":2rrwizbf said:


> buy a domino. . . . . . . . .



Mike


----------



## TrimTheKing (12 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":4568p3qt said:


> Chems":4568p3qt said:
> 
> 
> > buy a domino. . . . . . . . .
> ...


Or just click 'quote' in the top corner of the post Mike.

Much quicker


----------



## Chems (12 Jan 2010)

Teheheh, seemed like the obvious answer. I like making mortice and tenon, but I love my domino more.


----------



## Alf (12 Jan 2010)

Did you really need to _read_ it to know what it said, Mike? :lol:


----------



## woodbloke (12 Jan 2010)

fobos8":23efn51r said:


> Have thought about Domino but for large pieces like a 1.8m by 1m table I think the dominos are too small.
> 
> Andrew



Dominos have been considered, but are _'persona non grata' _:wink: - Rob


----------



## MikeG. (12 Jan 2010)

Alf":1ieqlc1o said:


> Did you really need to _read_ it to know what it said, Mike? :lol:



Fair point, well made.  

Mike


----------



## Chris_belgium (12 Jan 2010)

Made a lot of mortice and tenon joints lately, using a router for both the tenon and mortice. 

Lot's of pics and info in this topic: 

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34019&highlight=gate+driveway

First attempt took me 1 hour to make big m&t 75mm deep 80 long 25 wide, last ones maybe forty minutes, for these ones I drilled out the waste and then cleaned up the mortice with the router, went really fast. 
Because the mortices were that deep I had to first cut them 40mm deep with a normal cutter, then put an extension collet in and do the remaining 30mm. If you have longer cutters/powerfull router, I'm guessing, 25-30 minutes for a big m&t, wich is pretty fast imho. 
I also cut the mortices square with a chisel wich took some time, rounding over the tenons with a rasp is a good Idea wich I will use on my next projects.


----------



## johnf (12 Jan 2010)

I'd use a slot morticer for the mortices and a dado cutter in the table saw for the tenons round the corners with a rasp or maybe loose tenons


----------



## fobos8 (12 Jan 2010)

I'm really chuffed with the feedback you've all given me and will put it all to good use.

How accurate does the rounding off of tenons need to be? Surely its easier to square the mortise accurately that it is to round off. I'm not trying to be negative - just trying to see whether it would weaken the joint if the tenons are not perfectly rounded off.


----------



## sometimewoodworker (13 Jan 2010)

fobos8":wrmecaw9 said:


> I'm really chuffed with the feedback you've all given me and will put it all to good use.
> 
> How accurate does the rounding off of tenons need to be? Surely its easier to square the mortise accurately that it is to round off. I'm not trying to be negative - just trying to see whether it would weaken the joint if the tenons are not perfectly rounded off.



Rounding off tenons (or squaring mortices) is unimportant as far as glue joint strength is concerned they are plenty strong enough with gaps at the ends.

The benefit of perfectly fitted M/T comes in registration of parts on assembly and when the glue does not hold well or can creep. Then the exact fitted M/T will resist movement. However you can then run into a hydraulic lock which will prevent the joint from closing correctly.


----------



## Chris_belgium (13 Jan 2010)

Imho it's more important to get the shoulders perfectly straight than the tenon itself. This is even more the case when using epoxy (fills the small gaps) glue or drawboring the m&t's. I've sometimes had a real 'sloppy' fit when dry fitting the tenons, but after hammering the drawboring pegs in, the joint was rock solid.


----------



## miles_hot (13 Jan 2010)

HOw do you go about drilling for drawboring? Is it just a case of really good marking out or is there some technique to drilling through? On the few times I've actually done MT joints with pegs I'v just fitted the joint, clamped and then drilled through. This has the significant benefit of not needing any marking but it misses the benefit of a drawn joint...

many thanks

Miles


----------



## Paul Chapman (13 Jan 2010)

miles_hot":23lv42yo said:


> HOw do you go about drilling for drawboring?



Have a look at these http://www.youtube.com/user/LieNielsen# ... AkWMHDKB-E

http://www.youtube.com/user/LieNielsen# ... G1jNQzwvQ8

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## MikeG. (13 Jan 2010)

miles_hot":20zfu71i said:


> HOw do you go about drilling for drawboring?
> Miles



Miles,

drill through the wood containing the mortice first, with the tenon removed. The best drill for this is a spade bit, or a brace and bit, because the point is the most important thing.

Having done your first hole, you offer the tenon in, and drill very gently, just engaging the point. This marks on the tenon the centrepoint of the hole through the mortice. Remove the tenon, and just start drilling a short distance away from the point-mark you have just made. The distance varies with your material and the size of your timber & joint.

Mike


----------



## MikeG. (13 Jan 2010)

Paul Chapman":3vtxy9br said:


> Have a look at these http://www.youtube.com/user/LieNielsen# ... AkWMHDKB-E
> Paul



I love the reference to "an ancient technique, some as old as the 16th century"!!!!!! Well, I regularly see them in 13th century buildings, and have no doubt that they would be found all over wooden parts of buildings over a thousand years old. 

Nice little videos......but they take a long time to cover something this simple.....

Mike


----------



## miles_hot (13 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":w0bb4ley said:


> miles_hot":w0bb4ley said:
> 
> 
> > HOw do you go about drilling for drawboring?
> ...



Are there any metrics or ways of working out the distance based on the material and the timber / joint size or is this down to experience?

Miles


----------



## Chris_belgium (13 Jan 2010)

miles_hot":35gu86fi said:


> Mike Garnham":35gu86fi said:
> 
> 
> > miles_hot":35gu86fi said:
> ...



I did some 'testing' on hardwood, 2mm is perfect, 3 mm was too much, you destroy the peg when you try and drive it in. Offcourse this was on the very large t&m joints, smartest thing to do is make a test piece using the same kind of wood you want to construct the drawbore m&t in.

The way I did it was, drill the mortices, put the tenon in, make a center mark with the drill, take tenon out, then I used a centre punch and offset the drill mark at least 2mm. 
The first ones I did I lost a lot of time carefully measuring and trying to get the offset holes the perfect distance. Last ones I did I drilled the offset at least 3mm sometimes even more eyeballing the marking out thus making the marking out a lot faster, and then use a round rasp to fine tune them, wich went really fast, talking about one or two strokes with the rasp to get them to the perfect fit.
There is something strangely satisfying to see a m&t joint getting pulled tight when you drive the peg in 

One very important detail is, use a knife to cut a point on the pegs before you drive them in.


----------



## OPJ (13 Jan 2010)

Mike,

_Spade bit?_ Seriously??? :shock: That might work on a green oak frame but I wouldn't use one on a fine piece of furniture like that! :wink:

A brad point bit (aka. 'dowel drill') would be better, assuming the dowels are no larger than 10mm in diameter.

I've had similar experiences to Chris - 3mm is too much and can split softwood; 1mm isn't enough; but 2mm seems perfect on hardwoods (I've used it on beech several times).


----------



## MikeG. (13 Jan 2010)

Yep, a spade bit! Sharpen the face and the edges and they cut surprisingly well..........but, to be fair, I also gave the option of a brace & bit......

Mike


----------



## xy mosian (13 Jan 2010)

Of course there are spade bits with scribe points. Now I wonder which brand they are!

xy


----------



## fobos8 (13 Jan 2010)

what do others think about rounding off tenons to fit routered mortises?

Is everyone else of the opinion that the rounding off doesn't need to be too accurate?


----------



## Paul Chapman (13 Jan 2010)

In my experience it's very easy to round off the tenons accurately and fast with either a block plane or a rasp. Here's one in oak I did as a trial fit (can't remember whether I used a plane or rasp for this)







Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## MikeG. (13 Jan 2010)

Yep, seconds of a job, with a rasp or chisel. I also chamfer the leading edges of my tenons with a chisel.

Mike


----------



## woodbloke (14 Jan 2010)

Many of the mortises I now cut (not all) are through wedged, so the show face needs to be enlarged with a sloping cut by about a mm each side...difficult to do accurately if the mortise is left round. This is the reason that I square up the round ended mortise (from the router) with something like a 6mm chisel - Rob


----------



## MikeG. (14 Jan 2010)

Ah yes......well, that's a different thing altogether. They must fit perfectly.

Mike


----------



## big soft moose (16 Jan 2010)

having just watched workshop essentials 1 i'd note that mr maskery has a jig for making rounded tennons with a router - which would speed things up a fair bit


----------



## fobos8 (16 Jan 2010)

Hi BigSoftMouse

I was thinking that a roundover router bit half the thickness of the tenon would be a good idea. Was gonna try on the router table but problem is that the rails I have to tenon are very long.

How do I get to see the Steve Maskery jig. Is it on youtube?

Regards,Andrew


----------



## big soft moose (16 Jan 2010)

fobos8":2sks8uze said:


> Hi BigSoftMouse
> 
> I was thinking that a roundover router bit half the thickness of the tenon would be a good idea. Was gonna try on the router table but problem is that the rails I have to tenon are very long.
> 
> ...



have a look on his own site - http://www.workshopessentials.com/ , but i think you may need to buy the dvd W.E 1 ( in which case i'd suggest cutting to the chase and just buying the mega bundle of W.E 1-5 )

you could also send steve a pm as he's bound to know if the clip is anywhere

the jig is one of those where you use the router free - not unlike you do in a 'rat - you can use it on longish rails - but are limited to your safe working height ( I guess you could stand on something to increase that but its probably not recommended)

and I'm a moose dammit , not a mouse :lol:


----------



## fobos8 (18 Jan 2010)

Thanks for the replie BigSoftMoose!


----------

