# Chisel sharpening – you’re all doing it wrong!



## jim_hanna (23 Apr 2017)

Having followed some of the spirited discussions on this forum about sharpening I thought I’d let you know that all the views about ceramic, water, oil, diamond or slate media and hand versus honing guide are all wrong. The way to sharpen chisels, at least according to my DIY Manual, is to clamp them in a metal working vice and have at them with a file.

The book in question is this, DIY Manual, no idea when I bought it. I was browsing for information on a different topic when I stumbled on the sharpening advice. 





I believe I’m allowed to quote excerpts in the context of a review so here is page 39, top picture showing some chisels, middle picture showing a chap with a file attacking something in a vice and the caption:
TOP AND CENTRE: Firmer chisels have square rather than beveled edges that are easier to keep sharp.




Bottom picture is interesting as well, obviously I’m using the wrong sort of screwdriver bit.





All of page 39 just to show I'm not spoofing.





My review conclusion is: thank goodness I didn’t pay full price.


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## AndyT (23 Apr 2017)

Thankyou O Bearer of True Wisdom!
I confess 50 years of sharpening sins. 
Please forgive me. 

PS Does the book explain how to sharpen files? My best ones suddenly aren't as good as they used to be.


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## Glynne (23 Apr 2017)

Not very often, but there are times when I miss Jacob.


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## Droogs (23 Apr 2017)

Glynne":1q0i2tye said:


> Not very often, but there are times when I miss Jacob.




:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: SHAME SHAME SHAME


If I'm honest me too :roll: :roll: :roll: 


:lol:


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## ColeyS1 (23 Apr 2017)

Is he posting somewhere else now ?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## bugbear (23 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":3gqoc5s0 said:


> Is he posting somewhere else now ?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk



I think everywhere else banned him long before this forum did.

BugBear


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## ColeyS1 (23 Apr 2017)

bugbear":ik97bcby said:


> I think everywhere else banned him long before this forum did.
> 
> BugBear


It's the end of an era.


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## RobinBHM (23 Apr 2017)

Glynne":nnsw6iwn said:


> Not very often, but there are times when I miss Jacob.



So what has happened to Jacob?


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## Cheshirechappie (23 Apr 2017)

1) They are, quite obviously, diamond files.

2) Even if they aren't, and even if that method doesn't work on chisels, it is clearly very effective on the creases of workshop trousers.

3) Some people will publish any old rubbish. If there's any justice, that print run made a loss. 

4) Unfortunately, there are still people out there who believe everything they read in books. And newspapers. And on the interwebs.

5) Fortunately, the vast majority of posters on this forum are wise, knowledgeable and intelligent, and wouldn't fall for that sort of stuff.

6) The publication date wasn't April 1st, by any chance?


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## Ford Anglia (24 Apr 2017)

> "...Firmer chisels have square rather than beveled edges that are easier to keep sharp..."


So that's where I've been going wrong all these years; a revelation!


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## morfa (24 Apr 2017)

Jacob is finally totally banned then? I'd sort of thought folk were just letting him ramble these days...

On topic:

Amusing book. However I'm sure there are folks who do stuff like that. I know a plumber who abuses the snot out of his chisels and then just has his old man re-grind them every few months. Assuming he doesn't loose it in the mean time.


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## custard (24 Apr 2017)

I try and stay away from sharpening threads, but I don't think this method is quite as mad as it sounds. 

Saws and drill bits are commonly sharpened with files, so there's no question a file is capable of producing a cutting edge. And in my experience where most woodworking newbies come to grief is falling down the rabbit hole of aiming for some mythical "ultimate" edge. 

I'm not about to set about my chisels with a file, but I've met plenty of beginning woodworkers who faff about with 10,000 grit plus stones and yet ignore the fundamental of first raising a wire edge. Consequently they can waste hours achieving ever higher levels of polish, but their tools actually have rounded cutting edges, so in practise are pretty blunt despite looking pretty. On the other hand the yard boat builder or site carpenter who maintains his or her tools just with coarser stones will achieve a functional edge and get back to working wood in double quick time.


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## lurker (24 Apr 2017)

custard":1mmmekj7 said:


> in my experience where most woodworking newbies come to grief is falling down the rabbit hole of aiming for some mythical "ultimate" edge.
> 
> ........, but I've met plenty of beginning woodworkers who faff about with 10,000 grit plus stones and yet ignore the fundamental of first raising a wire edge. Consequently they can waste hours achieving ever higher levels of polish, but their tools actually have rounded cutting edges, so in practise are pretty blunt despite looking pretty. On the other hand the yard boat builder or site carpenter who maintains his or her tools just with coarser stones will achieve a functional edge and get back to working wood in double quick time.



You sound just like Jacob!





..................but you are dead right too


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## nivag the tool (24 Apr 2017)

I used to share a workshop with a man whose preferred method of chisel sharpening was freehand on an upside down belt sander he even built a special jig to hold the sander in the vice, got the chisels sharp and made them look pretty with lovely rainbow colored patterns at the ends.


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## katellwood (24 Apr 2017)

nivag the tool":3oax5y3c said:


> got the chisels sharp and made them look pretty with lovely rainbow colored patterns at the ends.



But must have been going back to the sander every other cut :roll:


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## D_W (24 Apr 2017)

RobinBHM":35a3sciq said:


> Glynne":35a3sciq said:
> 
> 
> > Not very often, but there are times when I miss Jacob.
> ...



Speaking of, there hasn't been any Charlie Stanford in a while, either. Lots of similarities between the two.


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## Sgian Dubh (24 Apr 2017)

custard":3qp4r1n6 said:


> I'm not about to set about my chisels with a file, but I've met plenty of beginning woodworkers who faff about with 10,000 grit plus stones and yet ignore the fundamental of first raising a wire edge. On the other hand the yard boat builder or site carpenter who maintains his or her tools just with coarser stones will achieve a functional edge and get back to working wood in double quick time.


There's a good amount of common sense in what you say. Like you I don't use files, and never have done to sharpen chisels and plane irons. I do however tend to sharpen only as much as I need. I probably do ninety five per cent of my plane and chisel sharpening on only a 'medium' stone: I'm not certain of the grit because it was simply labelled medium when I got it, but it's probably somewhere around 800 or 1,000. If I need better I move on after the 'medium' stone to my 'superfine' stone, again, grit size unknown, but it makes the tools much shinier, and therefore sharper for that final prepping work of a panel, or some other relatively demanding work. And whichever stone I use to finish my sharpening there's always a bit of flipping of the iron or chisel backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand for that final burnish, although it's probably debatable if the flipping thing does much.

In my experience it's certainly not always necessary to achieve a super sharp edge to work satisfactorily, and my practice of bringing the edge to 'good enough' quickly has served me very well all my working life, so I'll continue with it because I really need to work wood rather than spend too long sharpening. Slainte.


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## woodbrains (24 Apr 2017)

custard":37uzcwwj said:


> I try and stay away from sharpening threads, but I don't think this method is quite as mad as it sounds.
> 
> Saws and drill bits are commonly sharpened with files, so there's no question a file is capable of producing a cutting edge. And in my experience where most woodworking newbies come to grief is falling down the rabbit hole of aiming for some mythical "ultimate" edge.
> 
> I'm not about to set about my chisels with a file, but I've met plenty of beginning woodworkers who faff about with 10,000 grit plus stones and yet ignore the fundamental of first raising a wire edge. Consequently they can waste hours achieving ever higher levels of polish, but their tools actually have rounded cutting edges, so in practise are pretty blunt despite looking pretty. On the other hand the yard boat builder or site carpenter who maintains his or her tools just with coarser stones will achieve a functional edge and get back to working wood in double quick time.



Hello,

Let's face it, it is mad isn't it! The book is just plain wrong and it is an editing mistake showing a man filing something (not a chisel) and whoever compiled the captions didn't know anything about woodworking and just put a caption with the wrong photo. It is just misleading and hilarious to us, who know better, but can show us absolutely nothing about how to sharpen tools. 

Drill bits sharpened with files, well only those designed to be, like an auger and saws with resharpenable blades. HSS drills and hardpoint saws.... not a chance, nor are chisels hardened to Rc 60 and above. It is daft suggesting it might be done, although some framers slicks are soft enough to do so, bench chisels, not so much.

Mike.


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## D_W (24 Apr 2017)

I'm coasting off of a complex migraine last week, so I might be a bit dense. Can someone clarify something for me? Are we to presume that:
1) The middle picture is incorrect (incorrect, as in it's just not the picture that the author or compiler intended), or
2) The middle picture has someone sharpening chisels with a file?

In the days of ward irons and disston files (or whatever your favorites there would have been), only a double cut file could've cut an iron, and even then, not for long. Of course, a double cut iron would do that much of a favor. 

I'm sure I have an iron or two that could be cut by a good file, but they wouldn't make good smoother irons (they work great in a jack or double iron try plane where the bleeding edge needs to be uniformly worn with clearance maintained, but not perfect in terms of razor sharpness). I'll try to file one tonight. Even if they can be filed, though, they would go through a file in relatively short order, and files were mondo expensive in old catalogs (at least from what I can gather). It wouldn't be very economical compared to just using a stone. Even final shaping of the edge on a true temper axe can blow out a file, or get you halfway there. Presume those are low to mid 50s in hardness, but never upper 50s.


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## woodbrains (24 Apr 2017)

Hello,

The man is filing something but not a chisel. TBH the low grade files shown in the picture are made of something like toffee, so likely ineffectual on mild steel for long, let alone tempered HCS.

I assume the compiler of the book wanted a picture of someone sharpening a chisel, picked a photo which should have been in the metalworking section and, not knowing enough about how to sharpen put on a caption to suit. Or something like that. It is obvious from the photo, with all the various forms of file on the bench, the engineers vice and the piece of metal in the vice, the photo wasn't taken to illustrate sharpening whatsoever.

That is not to say Custard or Richard above do not have valid points about obsessional sharpening, just the idea of sharpening with files to illustrate their point was a bit daft, especially since the book was wrong to show it anyway.

Mike.


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## D_W (24 Apr 2017)

woodbrains":3bme4a5o said:


> Hello,
> 
> The man is filing something but not a chisel. TBH the low grade files shown in the picture are made of something like toffee, so likely ineffectual on mild steel for long, let alone tempered HCS.
> 
> ...



I agree on all points. I thought the picture was just an error, also, but agree that demanding high grit is an interesting thing. I went through it, lots of us do because it's available and it does make a transient very sharp edge. But that level of sharpness only matters in very very shallow cuts, and we don't often find them in actual woodworking.


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## John Brown (25 Apr 2017)

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but think you've lost a valuable contributor in Jacob. From what I saw, there were a group of folks who routinelly ganged up against him, and tried to provoke him whenever he offered an opinion. It's incredible to me that anyone should be banned from an on-line woodworking forum. It would have been easier and, IMO, better, to have just ignored the man if you disagreed so strongly. 

Shame on you all.


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## memzey (25 Apr 2017)

I agree. He wasn't everyone's cup of tea but a valued contributor nonetheless.


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## jim_hanna (25 Apr 2017)

Apologies to the mods and anyone who has treated this thread seriously.

I put up what I thought was a clear example of absolutely awful editing and proof reading on the part of the book author to inject a brief moment of humour.

I think the clear message here for all posters is “Never, ever joke about sharpening!”

I thought the last photograph made it clear that this was awful publishing practice rather than serious comment, I can’t believe anyone has ever driven a screw with an auger drill.

Regards to all

Jim


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## Corneel (25 Apr 2017)

I thought it was very funny indeed Jim!

And I miss Jacob too, a sane voice in a world full of armchair woodworkers :mrgreen:


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## John15 (25 Apr 2017)

I miss Jacob also

John


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## lurker (25 Apr 2017)

John Brown":3p8ybs8i said:


> I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but think you've lost a valuable contributor in Jacob. From what I saw, there were a group of folks who routinelly ganged up against him, and tried to provoke him whenever he offered an opinion. It's incredible to me that anyone should be banned from an on-line woodworking forum. It would have been easier and, IMO, better, to have just ignored the man if you disagreed so strongly.
> 
> Shame on you all.



John,
I have generally been in the pro -Jacob camp particually when he ranted against the "you must spend lots of money on boutique tools or you are wasting your time" brigade.

BUT, if you look at the particular thread that lead to his most recent ban the Mods were correct to ban him IMHO.
And I say that as one who has recieved a warning from a mod (who I think is a oversensitive git :wink: ) only this morning.


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## John Brown (25 Apr 2017)

@Jim, I thought your post was very funny also. 

@Lurker, I will see if I can find it.


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## John Brown (25 Apr 2017)

Well I went and searched and found a thread relating to transferring CAD to wood. Couldn't find anything more recent from Jacob. Read the whole thing, still no idea why he'd be banned for that. Seems to me that others were ruder to him.

Oh well. I have to attend to some grown-up stuff for a while now.


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## memzey (25 Apr 2017)

I recall that thread and Jacob was a bit like a dog with a bone on it. Still think a permanent ban is a bit OTT and would like to see him back.


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## woodbrains (25 Apr 2017)

Hello,

TBH I'm surprised Jacob lasted so long! Don't get me wrong, I actually liked the fellow in a sort of way, but cheeses he could be brutal. And he never needed provoking, he always went out of his way to rub people up the wrong way and then argued interminably if they tried to defend themselves or offer explaination. I was one of his main victims at one time, though I actually didn't mind a bit, dunno if that came across in text or not. I remember being told I was moralising when I pointed out that Eric Gill was a rapist and pedophile, after he wrote about his major flaw was wearing funny clothes, and then getting a Hitler salute from him!!! Skewed sense of humour to be sure. I'd have him back though.

Mike.


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2017)

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the forum - they've let me back in!! :lol: :lol: 

Thanks for the kind words etc.

Now where was I? hmm.... 8)


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## Sheffield Tony (25 Apr 2017)

Aha ! Welcome back Jacob, this place is just not the same without you.


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## RobinBHM (25 Apr 2017)

Jacob":35yd6jri said:


> Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the forum - they've let me back in!! :lol: :lol:
> 
> Thanks for the kind words etc.
> 
> Now where was I? hmm.... 8)



A very Welcome back Jacob  

I expect your absence has made you a reformed character, so we can expect you will be voting Theresa May, agreeing with Brexit. Also whilst you have been away I imagine you must bought a honing guide, scary sharp 8000grit abrasive paper and the backs of your chisels are super flat and as shiny as a mirror


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2017)

Yep I've seen the light! :shock: 
Paul Nutter PhD for PM! (hammer)


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## G S Haydon (25 Apr 2017)

He's back! Awesome


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## Corneel (25 Apr 2017)

He, welcome back Jacob! I allready started a poll, but kind of missed that you allready were there again. :lol: The poll has been removed allready.


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## RossJarvis (25 Apr 2017)

I must admit, I was a bit confused by what they called a panel drill, I'd never heard of one of them before. I've now looked it up and the photo aint one of them either. I was wondering what beast of a screw driver bit they had in that machine.

I couldn't make out the middle photo, so assumed there was a file in the vice and then wondered if it might actually be a good idea, I've certainly used files on saws and axes before. A tiny bit of me thought I might have found a way to grind out chips in my wide chisels a lot quicker than a course stone. Damn, it appears I haven't.

Regarding the Jacob, I was a bit stunned that it appears he's been banned. I've been given and read lots of good generous help from him, however I've also been stung a bit by his rants and in the particular post mentioned, he really was very aggressively condescending to a new member with a genuine plea for help. I'd have to admit that I've made stupid and possibly hurtful comments myself on occasions and maybe many of us make unwise comments without realising they can be hurtful. I really can't imagine Jacob is a complete ogre, but he can have a way about him which seems uncharitable to those who don't meet his exacting standards. If he has been officially sequestered due to a certain CAD posting, I can see the point that actually many people (all of us?) do need to be protected from what at least may appear to be belittling comments from those who feel better than them.

I for one would welcome the owd b***** back, but with hopefully more charity to the rest of us who aren't of his lofty abilities.


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## woodbrains (25 Apr 2017)

Jacob":2oibf3zp said:


> Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the forum - they've let me back in!! :lol: :lol:
> 
> Thanks for the kind words etc.
> 
> Now where was I? hmm.... 8)



Hello,

pipper, what have I done?

Welcome back Jacob.

Mike.


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## lurker (26 Apr 2017)

I was hoping you might regenerate as Mr Grimsdale, but welcome back.
Bugbear has been pining but is now polishing his handbag as we speak


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## memzey (26 Apr 2017)

Lol!


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2017)

RossJarvis":3p2fnpy9 said:


> ....
> Regarding the Jacob, I was a bit stunned that it appears he's been banned. I've been given and read lots of good generous help from him, however I've also been stung a bit by his rants and in the particular post mentioned, he really was very aggressively condescending to a new member with a genuine plea for help. I'd have to admit that I've made stupid and possibly hurtful comments myself on occasions and maybe many of us make unwise comments without realising they can be hurtful. I really can't imagine Jacob is a complete ogre, but he can have a way about him which seems uncharitable to those who don't meet his exacting standards. ....


Well I felt a bit annoyed that almost everybody including the OP was arguing against, or offering over-complicated solutions, to a very simple problem; easily solved by brushing up on very basic drawing skills, with a pencil, a set square and a ruler. 
I'd still say the same , but perhaps more diplomatically, though I had been posting quietly and helpfully for some time before I went very slightly sarcastic!
It's an inherent tendency on this forum (and others I expect) to seek difficult technical solutions to some very simple problems.

PS Looking forward to fighting off BB and his shiny handbag!


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## lurker (26 Apr 2017)

Jacob,
On that thread, I was entirely with you.
BUT is was quite obvious the OP was determined to do it his own way, so it was futile continually making the same point.
You frequently do it and this is where you start to be annoying. Just accept some folks can't be helped.


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## DennisCA (26 Apr 2017)

I know I am doing it wrong!!!!!!!! Sharpening by hand, on arkansas stones.... I have two identical squeeze bottles in my shop (cheap chinese condiment bottles from ebay) and I took the wrong bottle by mistake, one has ballistol in it, the other has shellac... Looks identical in color....


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2017)

DennisCA":68ybls6q said:


> I know I am doing it wrong!!!!!!!! Sharpening by hand, on arkansas stones.... I have two identical squeeze bottles in my shop (cheap chinese condiment bottles from ebay) and I took the wrong bottle by mistake, one has ballistol in it, the other has shellac... Looks identical in color....


I made a similar mistake when I worked in a holiday camp kitchen many years ago. I oiled the breakfast sausage tins with industrial Teepol (washing up liquid) instead of peanut oil (same colour in the next barrel). 300 guests ate sausages cooked in washing up liquid and nobody complained!
The tins were very easy to clean afterwards.


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## John Brown (26 Apr 2017)

Welcome back, Jacob.


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## clauskeller (26 Apr 2017)

Welcome back, Jacob, from me too!

Claus


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## JimB (26 Apr 2017)

Jacob":2ol3m3az said:


> DennisCA":2ol3m3az said:
> 
> 
> > I know I am doing it wrong!!!!!!!! Sharpening by hand, on arkansas stones.... I have two identical squeeze bottles in my shop (cheap chinese condiment bottles from ebay) and I took the wrong bottle by mistake, one has ballistol in it, the other has shellac... Looks identical in color....
> ...


I can't be the only one to put shaving cream on a toothbrush and froth at the mouth.


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## Woodmonkey (26 Apr 2017)

I have a feeling Jacob periodically gets himself banned on purpose just so people will say nice things about him on threads like this!


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## sploo (26 Apr 2017)

Woodmonkey":11l5jr8z said:


> I have a feeling Jacob periodically gets himself banned on purpose just so people will say nice things about him on threads like this!


Perhaps we need a naughty button for forum members: too many presses by others in a space of time leads to a temporary time-out. Much potential for comedy abuse though


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## RossJarvis (26 Apr 2017)

Jacob":1mkg1k0h said:


> RossJarvis":1mkg1k0h said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



I will admit that I came very close to posting an alternative solution, but decided to keep gob shut. I tend to be more reckless the closer to closing time I post.


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## lurker (26 Apr 2017)

Woodmonkey":1esxy36p said:


> I have a feeling Jacob periodically gets himself banned on purpose just so people will say nice things about him on threads like this!


I doubt he cares what people think of him, we tend to be like that up north.


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## RobinBHM (26 Apr 2017)

Jacob":31gxyshw said:


> Yep I've seen the light! :shock:
> Paul Nutter PhD for PM! (hammer)




I cant help laughing now everytime I see him interviewed, I always think of him now as Paul Nutter


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2017)

lurker":2z8s7459 said:


> Woodmonkey":2z8s7459 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a feeling Jacob periodically gets himself banned on purpose just so people will say nice things about him on threads like this!
> ...


I do I do! I'm very sensitive! 
Actually I'm not too bothered about being banned - it means I can do something more useful instead, like watching Benidorm.
And it gives BB a chance to polish his handbag and regain his composure - I sometimes think I'm a little hard on him.


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## mikefab (26 Apr 2017)

Jacob":3rzj9y76 said:


> lurker":3rzj9y76 said:
> 
> 
> > Woodmonkey":3rzj9y76 said:
> ...


Welcome back Jacob. I think this forum would have been a poorer place without your experience and commonsense approach to woodworking.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## SammyQ (5 May 2017)

Welcome back Ould Man. Missed your offerings. We agree entirely on 'boutique woodworkers', even if throwing petrol on flames ain't my cuppa. Be good!! :lol: 

Sam

Oh, and go easy on BB (aka PW); he's got a good, informative, side too. Don't let imitating politicians get in the way of woodworking.... [-X


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## rhrwilliams (5 May 2017)

In my opinion Jacob is one of the most valued contributors on this forum in terms of conservation and traditional wood working. 

I think it would be a very sad day where someone who has so much knowledge and experience about traditional woodworking and is willing to help people like myself learn skills would be shunned out for any reason. 

People like Jacob should be listened to really rather than poked at; a few areas which Jacob has stirred up controversy in recent past....... 

Linseed Paints - Lots of people saying he was talking nonsense about Linseed paints being better when he started. Now Historic England, SPAB, and Historic Scotland insist on these paints and there is countless publications on how they are better. PLUS a general acceptance about the benefits. The market size of Linseed paints has massively increased. 

Sharpening - Big page on Jacobs website and lots of conversations about sharpening. Now online people like Paul Sellers and the other Northern Bloke english woodworker man all touting it, its all fairly well accepted and it turns out Jacob wasn't mad after all. 

Double Glazing etc etc......again Historic England Spab etc all singing off the same hymn sheet. 

So, although Jacob is abrupt he should be hung on to as a extremely valuable resource ! When these folks are gone there is not exactly a big queue of others to take their place.


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## DennisCA (5 May 2017)

What about double glazing? We had that solved and figured out by the 1880s in Finland.


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## Jacob (5 May 2017)

rhrwilliams":lo4ue1le said:


> .. When these folks are gone there is not exactly a big queue of others to take their place.


'ere - I'm not going anywhere! FFS!
Thanks for the kind words though!



DennisCA":lo4ue1le said:


> What about double glazing? We had that solved and figured out by the 1880s in Finland.


British climate is a lot gentler than Finnish and by and large double glazing is not cost effective here, in spite of the massive pressure from salesmen.
I'd be interested to know how 1880s Finnish double glazing is done. The problem here is that all the common solutions are highly obsolescent, rendering them even more cost ineffective


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## DennisCA (5 May 2017)

Removable interior sashes basically, taken out for summertime. They are in fact so efficient it's not worth the money to swap out for modern equivalents. Heimlaga could talk loops around me on this, he's an expert in this.


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## Jacob (5 May 2017)

DennisCA":2124wqje said:


> Removable interior sashes basically, taken out for summertime. They are in fact so efficient it's not worth the money to swap out for modern equivalents. Heimlaga could talk loops around me on this, he's an expert in this.


Well that'd work here and I've suggested it in the past but with no takers. Probably because of the weather - we don't get a predictable hard winter here and some years it'd hardly be worth the bother.
Internal shutters were common in the past, which I think are a good idea - cheaper than curtains in the long term and good for security and insulation.


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## Jacob (6 May 2017)

rhrwilliams":rkwvd347 said:


> ..... although Jacob is abrupt ....


Sorry about that (and about talking about myself) but there was a reason for being assertive: 
When I first came on to forums and message boards it always seemed to me that there were numbers of would-be-gurus and over confident experts dishing out information which was often (not always) nonsense, self serving and commercial. For example if you cast your mind back a few years; the promotion of LN/LV tools, or the explosion in the sharpening gadget market. 
Wouldn't matter except they attract (and exploit) a gullible fan base and they would sometimes get quite irritable when contradicted.
It struck me that I could dish out assertive and over-confident counter-nonsense of my own - and I've been doing it ever since!
Keeps me amused anyway!


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## D_W (6 May 2017)

These are what you'd call beginners traps. They got me, too. I didn't learn much from them, but I spent a lot. 

Marking knives, dovetail markers, pre-made shooting boards, expensive and over complicated sharpening guides, gadgets that guide saws (I didn't buy most of those). Figuring out faster ways to get to the same result led me to just learn the hard way that I was duplicating the old ways.

Heard a lot of crappie about it being too hard to rip wood or dimension it with hand tools, too.


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## D_W (6 May 2017)

I found you a chute board, Jacob. 

http://ticovogt.com/toolworks/index.php ... 7a641f41d0

A little better than 300 pounds without VAT. 

I could be considered rude for poking fun at this, and I guess I am. But I'm not worried that I'll hurt the sales of this stuff by making comments - these things are cold sold at shows, and on youtube videos where people go on at length for 10 minutes about all of the aspects that make it worth 400 bucks (and you have to wait 5 weeks, according to the page, so I guess you're hamstrung for that time). They'll sell to the same people who will buy a shooting board plane for 500 bucks, and then get far into woodworking and realize that unless they're making tiny things, there's little to shoot and that a table saw stop or chop saw cutting parts simultaneously is a bit more practical---but they might wish for a miter jack if they make some mouldings to cover exposed end grain.

I haven't found many vintage heavily used shoot boards around. Even a planemaker's float is more common. 

now, pardon me while I go make one for my absurd push me pull you plane - I have managed to track down two sheets of MDF at home depot to make a couple of boards. I'm sure I can find some offcuts for the fences.


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## Jacob (6 May 2017)

:lol: Available left handed too. Better have both just in case. Some amazing accessories there - better have them all! 
I fancy a "Sliding Block with Adjustable Europly Stop" I wonder what it's for?
http://ticovogt.com/toolworks/index.php ... ex&cPath=1


D_W":37enq5b4 said:


> I.......
> I haven't found many vintage heavily used shoot boards around. .....


I think that's because in the real world a shooting board is something you'd knock up in a few minutes from a few scraps, as and when needed. Job finished and it ends up on the firewood heap.
Actually I made one a bit back but haven't scrapped it yet as I have a box project in mind.


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## John15 (6 May 2017)

.....[/quote]I think that's because in the real world a shooting board is something you'd knock up in a few minutes from a few scraps, as and when needed. Job finished and it ends up on the firewood heap.
Actually I made one a bit back but haven't scrapped it yet as I have a box project in mind.[/quote]

I don't throw mine away after one use - it goes under the bench until the next time it's needed.

John


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## Corneel (6 May 2017)

When I posted a "make a shootingboard in 10 minutes real time" video, I got a rather angry email from one of the boutique shooting board makers. Nuff said.


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## D_W (6 May 2017)

Jacob":g2bn0nth said:


> :lol: Available left handed too. Better have both just in case. Some amazing accessories there - better have them all!
> I fancy a "Sliding Block with Adjustable Europly Stop"



what's europly? sounds like it must be superior to ameriply.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 May 2017)

Isn't it interesting that, as with all the other forums, 95% of the posts are about tools. Where are the posts about building furniture with said tools? Yes, I know that this forum is "Hand Tools", but even Woodworking or Projects are still about tools. And here the current topic is about the tools that beginners purchase or plan to use (one day ...). It is not really that different. How about showing some of the builds you are involved in? Jacob, you are supposedly a professional furniture maker. Snap a few pieces and post some pics here. I'd love to see what you do. 

With regard the tools beginners buy, such as the Vogt shooting board (which I do roll my eyes at, but mainly because I cannot imagine paying someone to make me a jig), at the end of the day I bite my tongue at the choices buyers make, and remind myself that for most it is a hobby, not to be taken that seriously. For the more serious, take a leaf out if Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Riding ...

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.” 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (7 May 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> ... Jacob, you are supposedly a professional furniture maker. Snap a few pieces and post some pics here. ...


Retired joiner specialising in period joinery and conservation work, with many odds and ends of furniture on the side.
These are my biggest ever, and fairly recent jobs - 10 of these (14' high!) replicated entirely new work (re-using the old glass), 6 similar single story part new/restored, door restored, etc etc.












PS correction - I re-used the curved glazing bars which were oak and came out in good nick (you can tell from the top photo), other than that it's all new work, replicating the originals in every detail.

PPS I glazed and painted them on this 'launching pad' so I could move them about and lift into place with a block and tackle


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## Jacob (7 May 2017)

D_W":3i8j7xj4 said:


> Jacob":3i8j7xj4 said:
> 
> 
> > :lol: Available left handed too. Better have both just in case. Some amazing accessories there - better have them all!
> ...


Looks like we'll be getting sub standard brexitoply in the near future. :roll:


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## D_W (7 May 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Isn't it interesting that, as with all the other forums, 95% of the posts are about tools. Where are the posts about building furniture with said tools? Yes, I know that this forum is "Hand Tools", but even Woodworking or Projects are still about tools. And here the current topic is about the tools that beginners purchase or plan to use (one day ...). It is not really that different. How about showing some of the builds you are involved in? Jacob, you are supposedly a professional furniture maker. Snap a few pieces and post some pics here. I'd love to see what you do.
> 
> With regard the tools beginners buy, such as the Vogt shooting board (which I do roll my eyes at, but mainly because I cannot imagine paying someone to make me a jig), at the end of the day I bite my tongue at the choices buyers make, and remind myself that for most it is a hobby, not to be taken that seriously. For the more serious, take a leaf out if Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Riding ...
> 
> ...



At some point, I think it does a disservice to beginners to have them believe that a $3K plane or a $400 shooting board is going to have any significant effect on their work. If someone says "well, i have a ton of money and nothing to do with it", then by all means. I recall that when I picked this hobby up, there was some literal advice that an infill plane is the ultimate in planing difficult wood. I believed that, too. I would never have been one to go for a $400 shooting board, but I spent more than my share on stuff that I never use.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 May 2017)

> At some point, I think it does a disservice to beginners to have them believe that a $3K plane or a $400 shooting board is going to have any significant effect on their work. If someone says "well, i have a ton of money and nothing to do with it", then by all means. I recall that when I picked this hobby up, there was some literal advice that an infill plane is the ultimate in planing difficult wood. I believed that, too. I would never have been one to go for a $400 shooting board, but I spent more than my share on stuff that I never use.



David, I agree with you, but I do not know what to suggest. The problem is that you and I have neither the prominence nor the importance as woodworkers to influence a newcomer. Someone such as David Charlesworth could. Paul Sellers and Chris Schwarz clearly do amongst their minions. Actually, I take that back - I offer up a build along, and someone will see the nice tools I use and imagine that my good work is due to them. And you will talk about Norris planes on forums, and the message is that they are wonderful and offer an advantage. We are all guilty of promoting the fantasy of excellence through expensive tools. We bought into this ourselves when we started out. Not knowing what was good and what to buy, we sought to emulate our heros. 

The fact is that there are a lot of high quality tools around these days. Some are shiny and new and others are diamonds in the rust. Many of the followers on forums I occasionally visit just wish to belong to a club. And the very basic pieces they make satisfy their inner woodworker (I watched a guy build a simple face grain cutting board - thicknessing, glueing and cutting - using many thousands of Dollars of high end power equipment. He was very happy. Try telling him that it could all be done with a #4 Stanley). 

Were you ready to be told about Stanley planes and chipbreakers 10 years ago? What if I had said to you that you did not need the hundreds of sharpening stones you went through, and just needed two? Would you have listened? :lol: 

I think that there is irony in the reaction of the followers of Paul Sellers. Paul pushes basic tools, such as the #4. I am not criticising the underlying motive (which is to get people woodworking as cheaply as possible). What I see (on forums), however, is that many only wish to use a #4 (and sans chipbreaker) for everything because Paul tells them this is the way. They stop exploring further options. Perhaps they will one day if they continue. Experience is earned, not taught or bought.

As I stated earlier, I do not have an answer. I find some the comments here and elsewhere bordering on the religiose. Intolerance (snide comments) turns me off. My preference is to discuss pros and cons, method of use, and illustrate these when possible. There is not enough of this, I feel. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (7 May 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> ...... Paul pushes basic tools, such as the #4. I am not criticising the underlying motive (which is to get people woodworking as cheaply as possible). What I see (on forums), however, is that many only wish to use a #4 (and sans chipbreaker) for everything because Paul tells them this is the way. They stop exploring further options....


Why would they "stop exploring further options"? Discovering the usefulness of cheap planes and materials can be an opening up of options and many will go on from there. 
Conversely I know from many conversations that having the "best" kit can be a big disappointment and discouragement to a beginner as it almost certainly will not improve their woodwork at all and could put them right off. The difference in use between a well set up cheap plane and a top of the range, is very, very, tiny.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 May 2017)

> Why would they "stop exploring further options"? Discovering the usefulness of cheap planes and materials can be an opening up of options and many will go on from there.



Jacob, so a #7 jointer and a #5 jack are a waste of time? 

An enquiring mind is a creative mind.

My comments above were not an argument for expensive planes or tools. I was drawing attention to the difficulty in exposing new woodworkers to a broad range of ideas. 

Jacob, sometimes I wonder if you would argue the point if I agreed with you?! :lol: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (7 May 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Jacob, sometimes I wonder if you would argue the point if I agreed with you?! :lol:
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek





Jacob":3eej7osz said:


> It struck me that I could dish out assertive and over-confident counter-nonsense of my own - and I've been doing it ever since!
> Keeps me amused anyway!


 BugBear


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## Jacob (7 May 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> > Why would they "stop exploring further options"? Discovering the usefulness of cheap planes and materials can be an opening up of options and many will go on from there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not something I've ever said. Mind you if you had both I'd say a 6 was a waste of time! If you had just one I'd say 5 1/2. If you could only afford the cheapest I'd say 4


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## iNewbie (7 May 2017)

Jacob":3ai2dxqn said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > ...... Paul pushes basic tools, such as the #4. I am not criticising the underlying motive (which is to get people woodworking as cheaply as possible). What I see (on forums), however, is that many only wish to use a #4 (and sans chipbreaker) for everything because Paul tells them this is the way. They stop exploring further options....
> ...



I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...


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## Jacob (7 May 2017)

iNewbie":2set128e said:


> Jacob":2set128e said:
> 
> 
> > Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> ...


Fair enough. 
But you are covered if you buy new from almost anyone. I bought a Faithful 10 from Amazon on the off chance, but it was beyond all hope and completely useless, so money back pronto no prob. Cheap new planes are dubious but cheap second hand can be excellent. 
On the other hand cheap new chisels are usually OK. They may look a bit crude and chunky but 99% of the time they are perfectly usable and good for beginners.


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## D_W (7 May 2017)

> I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...



Or you could literally buy 10 records in the UK and keep the best one and then resell the other 9. 

That would take some time, though, but I doubt you'd get to 10 before you found a really good one that didn't need much. One of my best working planes is a war-time 6 (stanley) that I found here in the states nearly unused for $25. Stanley planes don't always show up particularly flat once they're old, but this one did, and the adjuster is a treat.


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## D_W (7 May 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> > At some point, I think it does a disservice to beginners to have them believe that a $3K plane or a $400 shooting board is going to have any significant effect on their work. If someone says "well, i have a ton of money and nothing to do with it", then by all means. I recall that when I picked this hobby up, there was some literal advice that an infill plane is the ultimate in planing difficult wood. I believed that, too. I would never have been one to go for a $400 shooting board, but I spent more than my share on stuff that I never use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can't really disagree with much or any of that. I think it's sort of a lost cause, and everyone has to see for themselves. That's partly my problem, I have to see it for myself. 

If I said on 10 posts that I'm only really buying infills to have patterns to copy, it still doesn't sink in. I can say that the expensive later norris panel plane that I bought is really not that bad, it's almost as good as the $25 stanley 6 that I found in an antique store, but not quite. Maybe it would be as good as the stanley if it didn't have an adjuster, except the stanley adjuster system is a good one, so maybe not! That part gets missed. 

I wish I hadn't bought any of the norris planes with adjusters, because I'll lose a little money when I sell them, but I just have to see everything for myself, I guess.


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## Jacob (7 May 2017)

I have to see it for myself too!
I've also regretted buying several (modern) planes with Norris adjusters. They look such a good idea and such a tidy design. But they are hopeless. I don't imagine they are any better on the original Norris planes.
It's a learning curve and it's a good thing to realise how utterly superb the Stanley design is, compared to all the alternatives, even when there are two or more complete turns of slack in the wheel.
In fact Stanley themselves seemed completely unaware of what the had when they produced their recent "premium" planes ; well made, good materials, but really stupid retro design with useless Norris adjusters. Madness!


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## iNewbie (7 May 2017)

D_W":3a3empcf said:


> > I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't have an aversion to old planes -I'm looking for one now, but if it fell on the floor and broke I'd be looking for another one to likely restore when LN would happily replace it... You know how Jacob is about saving time when it comes to sharpening. :wink:


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## DoctorWibble (7 May 2017)

I doubt any tool company would replace something that broke because you dropped it. I have an LN chisel that became divorced from its handle after three years. Without ever being dropped or abused in any way. Poor really given methods for attaching chisel handles that last have been around for a very long time. Out of warranty of course. I'm just glad I only bought the one.


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## D_W (7 May 2017)

iNewbie":2ehis099 said:


> D_W":2ehis099 said:
> 
> 
> > > I'll assume quite a few people who buy the non-cheaper plane know the difference may not be greater. That reason may not be the reason as to why they buy the more expensive one - and one reason may not be for bragging rights, either. i.e. I found LN's customer service to be exemplary - having purchased a second-hand plane. I like a warranty when buying new, they seem to give you one if you buy 2nd hand...
> ...



I don't think they'd replace it, but the worst that would probably happen is breaking a handle (and they may comp you that), bending an adjuster or having a spot to file off on the casting. 

Stanley planes don't always break when you drop them, but they often do as do old wooden planes (they're OK unless they land on the handle, which is probably the way most of them get broken). 

I dropped my favorite stanley 4 last week on a concrete floor and I was mortified, but I lucked out and it landed right on the nose and no damage. 

At any rate, LN planes are nice planes (just wish they'd have been wise enough to keep the stanley sprung cap iron design, even if they felt the need to make it look heavier to impress beginners), and you get what pleases you in the end.


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## D_W (7 May 2017)

Jacob":1s4gla8r said:


> I have to see it for myself too!
> I've also regretted buying several (modern) planes with Norris adjusters. They look such a good idea and such a tidy design. But they are hopeless. I don't imagine they are any better on the original Norris planes.
> It's a learning curve and it's a good thing to realise how utterly superb the Stanley design is, compared to all the alternatives, even when there are two or more complete turns of slack in the wheel.
> In fact Stanley themselves seemed completely unaware of what the had when they produced their recent "premium" planes ; well made, good materials, but really stupid retro design with useless Norris adjusters. Madness!



The original norris adjusters are actually worse by a good bit. They change lateral adjustment when you advance them forward, they advance far too quickly, and when you tighten the lever cap, they will change setting - going deeper in cut. They do it so much that you can use the lever cap as a micro adjuster, getting the plane set closely with the adjuster and then adjusting the depth of the cut by loosening and tightening the lever cap. 

I recently bought three of them, but I'm digging up planes to see what I'd like to copy. I know now to not make an infill plane with any adjuster!

In contrast, I also got a norris #2 that has no adjuster, and it's quite nice to use, but I have gotten old infills (another norris, in fact) where the fit of the iron and cap with the bed and lever cap isn't so good and it doesn't adjust well. Not terrible to correct, but a problem that no stanley will have.

There are quite a few makers who have talked about all of the shortcomings of the stanley design (emmerich is one, the US language copy about the primus adjuster planes talks about how they have solved all of the shortcomings of stanley planes, but the plane is worse than a stanley, more costly and has a horrible blade retention mechanism. The only thing it has going for it with it's pressed metal adjustment system is that it has no backlash.) Talking about how much trouble backlash is is nothing more than a beginner's trap, though. I've never actually been bothered by it in use, but I sure have been bothered by oversensitive adjusters or gritty feeling adjusters that have little to none.


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## Jacob (7 May 2017)

D_W":2dokvcgx said:


> ...Talking about how much trouble backlash is is nothing more than a beginner's trap, though. I've never actually been bothered by it in use, but I sure have been bothered by oversensitive adjusters or gritty feeling adjusters that have little to none.


Yes you need a bit of slack so that you can feel positively the change from push to pull. It doesn't matter at all if it means spinning the wheel a turn or more - a well used plane just need a quick flick of the wheel.
It's a useful bit of feedback - like the feel you get with a vehicle manual gear stick.



> ....There are quite a few makers who have talked about all of the shortcomings of the stanley design...


Well they are trying to sell their planes aren't they :lol: 
A lot of forum chat used to be negative about stanley too ("thin blades made of cheese slack adjusters" moan moan!) but it seems to have eased off as reality dawns!


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## sploo (8 May 2017)

Jacob":csni5gjc said:


> Looks like we'll be getting sub standard brexitoply in the near future. :roll:


It'll be strong and stable though.

Ahem :mrgreen: :?


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## Noel (8 May 2017)

There was a thread some years ago that went like this:



> I think what does bug some folk is WIP pictures of, say a stage where a slip of wood has been planed (which certainly does not need a picture when 3 words would do- "planed the wood" etc) and we have an image of the wood with a 300 quid plane lying beside it. I'm quite sure some folk take a few minutes to just get the position right...and then we have the same picture that just so happens to have a grand or two of stuff lying on the shelf in the background....



No doubt some are proud and happy of what they have, others are simply showing off and perhaps the odd one is trying to be superior. I did once think of posting a picture of a bit of wood, some curly shavings and a wad of cash beside it..but only had a couple of thrupenny bits available...


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## D_W (8 May 2017)

"I just came from world of warcraft, and I want to level up starting in woodworking here, so I've spent $10,000 on tools from a more advanced user - including a shoot board that came up to $600 with all of the gadgets attached to it"

I often have expensive tools in the background, but making tools has become my interest more than making furniture. I can't imagine keeping all of them in the long term, either.

I don't have any expensive furniture. 

If someone has expensive tools and uses them, I think they like expensive tools. If they have expensive tools and they're a collector, that's fine, too. If they have expensive tools, say they're not a collector and they don't use the tools (as you can tell by 10 years of making simple beginner's items sparingly), then it's strange.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (8 May 2017)

David

What would you consider "expensive tools"? 

Now there's a mine field! :lol: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## D_W (8 May 2017)

625 pounds for a postwar panel smoother is expensive, I'd say, but there are people with a larger appetite for tools than that. Maybe $100+ for a chisel is expensive. 

I do get a giggle out of gigantic footprint shops with heat and central dust systems where the shop owner doesn't really make much and then wants to save pennies on hand tools. 

I know there are plenty who will think that more than 25 pounds for a metal plane is expensive, and that 5 would be more reasonable. My dad is in that category - if he doesn't have to spend the money, he will absolutely not spend it. 

Let the mud slinging begin!


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## Bm101 (8 May 2017)

I was working in Bristol last week and seeing as the job's a stones throw from Bristol Designs thought it would be rude not to pop in and say hello. (Would have phoned Andy but gathered you were 'away from your library'  ) 
In the back of my mind I was wondering if they had a chariot casting left, or possibly, maybe summat a bit bigger than the smoother I got last time I was down, for 'a future project'. Oh the webs we weave for ourselves.
Turned out they don't nor will they in the future. (They do have a couple of different smoothers left but that's about it if anyone is interested.) 
I'm a noob woodworker and have no business trying to cobble the odd infill plane together when I get a spare 5 minutes. I should be making spice racks by all rights but tbh I don't really care about spice racks. I didn't take much cash knowing that I'd then have to go back the next day and so armoured myself against any daft impulse purchases. Funny enough I must have turned a corner because rather than looking and thinking 'Ooooohhh' I looked and thought, 'can't use that, don't need one of them'. Who knew. Must be picking something up.
I did have a nice chat with the Owner who was very generous with his time and knowledge. Lovely fella.
We discussed quite a few things and I didn't feel totally out of my depth. I knew he had at one time sold a type of Norris adjuster and it turned out he did have one left in stock but it wouldnt fit my smoother (too short), but he was very forthright about the costs of having them made, the viability of selling castings etc in general (hence they aren't any more) and also the shortcomings of this type of adjuster as they get worn. I got a bit confused at one point when he talked about using different threads rather than opposing threads, would that solve issues?
The question I have is on a new adjuster, if it's not been in use for 60 years by various owners might you be better having one than using a wedge arrangement. I have one last unexplored option to have one made but when I get round to doing the smoother would the consensus be skip it and use a wedge. 

I do the messing about with planes bit purely because I enjoy it and have no _real _interest the fact that a well set up Stanley etc will do the same thing in this particular case. I do, of course I do, but that's not why I like to fiddle about down ma shed, as a hobby sometimes it's the fascination and the learning curve that I enjoy. I make no apologies for that.  Never made myself out to be more skilled than I am!


Be interested to hear what you think. New plane: adjuster or wedge. Answers on a postcard...

Walked away from Bristol Designs with just one tiny purchase..... O 







:-" 

Regards
Chris


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## D_W (8 May 2017)

Three types of infills that I can think of: (I've totally made these up)
1) lever cap, no adjuster
2) lever cap with adjuster
3) wedged

I haven't used a wedged infill because I've never come across a nice one for little money. Lots of old bulky castings or various very early designs, and some nice ones that are expensive. 

My preference is for an infill like the older norris planes - a lever cap and no adjuster, though a decent adjuster wouldn't hurt too much. The super speedy adjuster arrangement on later norris planes (and maybe some of the earlier ones) is troublesome. If I get what you're saying correctly, it's the suggestion to have two different speed threads going in the same direction so that the movement that occurs is the difference between the outside threads on the adjuster and the inside threads to the telescoping parts. That could work pretty well. The other challenge then is lateral adjustment, which isn't that great on a norris, as well as the tendency for them to advance the iron as you tighten the lever cap. 

All in all, a solid, well fitted iron on a plane with no adjuster just seems better working. 

re: the wedges, I would expect anything that hasn't been used for 60 years to have some fit issues, and would consider it the first step in getting one of those planes going. If you're lucky, the fit will be good. If not, you'll be redoing it, or at worst remaking a wedge. I'd just fit the wedge if I had a good condition one that didn't quite fit right. 

I'm with you on building things - the consensus on forums is often that if you're not building furniture, then you're not doing something legitimate. It's just sentiment. I would like to build some nice pieces, but not as much as I would like to build more tools, and the trouble with building a bunch of furniture pieces to get good at it (I mean like making something a lot nicer than just a piece of hand-done casework with hand cut mouldings) is that I have no need for them and nowhere to put them in the house. 

Only one comment I can make, that is to find an infill plane (even if it stretches you a little to buy one) that you like and take some proportions from it. It's safer than just building from scratch without anything in hand, and you can resell that plane at the end. You guys have an advantage over there in that you can get UK only items locally for cheaper than they sell for in the states, and then let them go on ebay with global shipping turned on and probably not lose anything.


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## DTR (8 May 2017)

Noel":2e2yeg0h said:


> a couple of thrupenny bits...



In an argument of old tools vs new, is this a Freudian slip?? 



Bm101":2e2yeg0h said:


>



Nice knob. 








Did I just say that?


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## Bm101 (8 May 2017)

Thanks DW. I've had the castings for a while. I bought two last time I was in Bristol. The bullnose is halfway done, the smoother hasn't been started. I need to make more time to do them, they get put to one side to easily in the face of real life and the white rabbit syndrome. I think that while maybe the intricacy of the work is what I really enjoy, it's also what puts me off picking them up sometimes when I'm tired. The thought of it. Need to give myself a slap and stop thinking about loft extension and kitchen and living room floors, work, kids. etc etc etc. 

I reckon you're right. Lever cap and no adjuster. That's what I did on my little block plane, though this is a different kettle of fish to be sure. Might extend the blade so it can be adjusted by tapping it, (*winks at DTR, 'That's a touch mate')

...unless of course I can come up with a Preston style rear screw thread..... No. :shock: Unleeeessss, maybe ...Nolegs might have an idea or two and if we were to approach it from the right angle...  

Thanks for the advice.
Regards
Chris


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## Bm101 (8 May 2017)

DTR":c1abha00 said:


> Nice knob.
> Did I just say that?



It's nicely knurled and the proportions are excellent. I'll give it that.


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## memzey (8 May 2017)

Funnily enough I was in Bristol a couple of weeks ago and had to pop in to Bristol Design as well. Half expected to see Andy their but no joy . I also had a nice chat with the owner and concur that he is a very nice fella.


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## Noel (9 May 2017)

DTR":2oan6mhr said:


> Noel":2oan6mhr said:
> 
> 
> > a couple of thrupenny bits...
> ...




Says the bloke going on about knobs..... : )
But good comment otherwise Dave.


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## Jacob (9 May 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> [....... The problem is that you and I have neither the prominence nor the importance as woodworkers to influence a newcomer. Someone such as David Charlesworth could. Paul Sellers and Chris Schwarz clearly do amongst their minions. ....


Unduly self deprecating Derek - the intelligent newcomer would do well to take more notice of people like yourself and others who are actively engaged at whatever level, but are not trying to sell anything. 
The 'vendors' should be viewed with a suitable degree of scepticism at all times! Prominent maybe, but not necessarily important.


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## AndyT (9 May 2017)

memzey":191dy6d9 said:


> Funnily enough I was in Bristol a couple of weeks ago and had to pop in to Bristol Design as well. Half expected to see Andy their but no joy . I also had a nice chat with the owner and concur that he is a very nice fella.



Well, call me conventional, but I'm more often to be found in my own home, which admittedly is not far away.  

However, at the time of your visit I was indeed off on my hols, though keeping an eye on the forum from time to time.

And I agree that the shop is a pleasant place to visit. There's no pressure, and an understanding that many of the customers are happy to stand and chat about old tools for as long as possible. I too have always found the proprietor, Charles Stirling, welcoming and happy to share his years of experience.


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## DennisCA (9 May 2017)

Well I bought some more stones, 25 euros worth of arkansas white slip stones. I have a buncha new-to-me turning tools to sharpen now and the old timey books I've read on it speak of honing turning tools rather than constantly regrinding.

I really like the arkansas oil stones!


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## AndyT (9 May 2017)

DennisCA":3onhbzsp said:


> Well I bought some more stones, 25 euros worth of arkansas white slip stones. I have a buncha new-to-me turning tools to sharpen now and the old timey books I've read on it speak of honing turning tools rather than constantly regrinding.



That advice would be correct for old-school carbon steel tools. But I've heard a rumour that turners are beginning to switch to some new-fangled stuff called "high speed steel" - I don't expect it will catch on. :wink:


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## DennisCA (9 May 2017)

I read an article about that, seems doable anyway:
http://woodturninglearn.net/articles/ho ... gtools.htm


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