# God Bless America



## andersonec (22 Dec 2012)

Say's it all really.







Andy


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## doctor Bob (22 Dec 2012)

NRA speech yesterday was shocking ... but I expect a lot of Americans will lap it up.


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2012)

andersonec":124ecazf said:


> Say's it all really.
> 
> .......
> Andy




Not really. if you look a bit deeper into the stats, the US is way way down the list compared to some other countries...like Brazil, Russia, El Salvador plus a whole host more. For example, Brazil 18 homicides per 100,000 of population. The US down at 4. 

Not that I am condoning the recent shootings. 

Now compare and contrast two places in the US. First up, Morton Grove, Illiinois. Passed a law forbidding anyone other than police to possess a handgun. Crime rate went up immediately after the ban, despite the population dropping slightly. As compared to Kennesaw, Georgia where they took the opposite stance and passed a law making it mandatory to own a gun (except felons, those with religious objections and people with disability (the latter can still own a gun should they so wish). 25 years later and there have been NO fatal shootings. No children have been injured in a shooting.


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## Tinbasher (22 Dec 2012)

Guns will always be part of American society.

I used to shoot pistol competitively, after becoming disabled I tried out a few sports while at Stoke Mandeville and found I was good at it. A few years later the Dunblane murders happened and soon after handguns were banned and I could no longer shoot. I was disappointed but believed it was a case of my hobby being less important than a safer society. Something like this could never happen in the USA they are wedded to their guns in way that is rare here.

Now older and hopefully wiser, the idea of owning what amounts to a tool for killing makes me uneasy but if I lived on a remote farm in the Highlands or in the wilds of America hours away from the nearest police. I might feel very differently.

I thought the NRA statement was mind bogglingly insensitive and crass. The statement that "the only protection from a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" reminded me so much of the old adage. " If you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". I think the danger is that if you rely only on guns, then every problem looks like a target.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2012)

Might have known some twerp (Roger) would chip in with highly selective anti gun control arguments. 
There are some more meaningful stats here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate and there are plenty more figures on the net.


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## RogerS (22 Dec 2012)

Jacob":2pisltwm said:


> Might have known some twerp (Roger) would chip in with highly selective anti gun control arguments.
> There are some more meaningful stats here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate and there are plenty more figures on the net.



Where do you think my stats came from, dingbat ? Suggest you read before knee-jerk.


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## Travis (22 Dec 2012)

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Travis


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## gregmcateer (22 Dec 2012)

First things first - My heart goes out to the parents and child witnesses of thie horrific act. How anyone gets over such a thing, I have no idea.

Wherever we stand on guns ownership, I can't quite see how an armed security guard in every school will prevent massacres - surely the baddy will walk up and say he's here to visit someone (especially easy if he is an ex-pupil, which to my knowledge they all have been) and the guard will say, "Yo there, Billy-Bob, nice to see y'all....." and in they go. Even assuming the guard is a tad more astute and asks to search them, the nutter, (and I assume we all agree these guys are nutters), will blast the guard and stroll right in.

Even assuming the above is incorrect, the armed guard scenario assumes the nutter will always come by the front gate and knock politely, that the guard is on the ball and said guard is also regularly trained and practised in the use of his or her weapon.

No idea of the statistics, but I understand that most US police never actually fire their weapons 'in anger', so guards keeping up the practice may be over-hopeful.

Just a few thoughts. Feel free to knock them down.

Gretg


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## andersonec (22 Dec 2012)

I would like to think the States are slightly more developed/educated/advanced than most of the the countries above it on the previously mentioned leader table (space travel, nuclear bombs etc) which in my language puts them at the top because they should know better, 

Canada has similar gun laws but where are they on the list? you cannot say "if everybody had guns it would be safer" that is balderdash and Canada proves it, they want a gun so they can go out and shoot something that bleeds and dies, it has everything to do with the mentality of the people who own a gun, try and watch Michael Moore's 'Bowling For Columbine' sometime.

America is the most heavily armed society in the world, over 80 million people own guns and how many of those are multiple gun owners? (can you imagine trying to rid the country of that many guns) if owning a gun brought down gun crime then the USA should really be clear of all gun crime, the argument doesn't wash.

Greg,
Reference the armed guard on every gate, these shootings are not that regular so how long before complacency sets in and taking them by surprise would be a cinch, they would just be one of the statistics.

Andy


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## MIGNAL (22 Dec 2012)

Those places that Roger cited have populations that are less than 30,000. Dangerous to form any conclusions from such small samples.
So there are parts of the world that have greater gun homicides than the US? Hardly something to write home about. Nice to know that the UK with such strong gun control has one of the lowest gun homicides in the world.


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## monkeybiter (22 Dec 2012)

andersonec":3v8djvu4 said:


> they want a gun so they can go out and shoot something that bleeds and dies, it has everything to do with the mentality of the people who own a gun
> 
> Andy



I'm not quite clear if you're referring to Americans or all shooters. Should I feel shocked at the generalisation or insulted ?


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2012)

monkeybiter":2ex12q1j said:


> andersonec":2ex12q1j said:
> 
> 
> > they want a gun so they can go out and shoot something that bleeds and dies, it has everything to do with the mentality of the people who own a gun
> ...


All shooters obviously. Nobody wants them. They play with tools which are designed for one thing only i.e. killing things (including people).


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## nanscombe (22 Dec 2012)

I see there are anti gun lobbyists on here.

I don't think the London Olympic team managed to kill anything, as far as I know.

Clay pigeon shooters don't kill anything.

Competitive target shooters don't kill anything. 

Hunters *should*, by rights, only kill to enough to eat.


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## Phil Pascoe (22 Dec 2012)

Just a few random thoughts -
A good quote from Juvenal - "no one ever suddenly became depraved". Didn't anyone notice that the perpetrators of mass murders weren't quite normal before the event? Maybe someone could have done something? (I have no idea what - before I get my head bitten off)
Where I grew up it was perfectly normal for unsupervised ten to twelve year old boys to go hunting with shotguns. No one ever shot anyone, then or for the fifty years since.
I was taught to sharpen a knife when I was eight years old, and I still carry one fifty years later - I've yet to contemplate stabbing someone.


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## nanscombe (22 Dec 2012)

You're not the only one around who sharpens blades. Do they randomly go out and stab people?


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## MIGNAL (22 Dec 2012)

History tells us that a knife isn't the weapon of choice when one wants to murder a huge number of people in a very short period of time. Guns are much more effective, especially if readily available to the insane.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2012)

nanscombe":1k2pv4x9 said:


> You're not the only one around who sharpens blades. Do they randomly go out and stab people?


About as often as people do woodwork with guns.


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2012)

phil.p":y4y3cgrj said:


> Just a few random thoughts -
> A good quote from Juvenal - "no one ever suddenly became depraved". Didn't anyone notice that the perpetrators of mass murders weren't quite normal before the event? Maybe someone could have done something? (I have no idea what - before I get my head bitten off)


The 'what' is really easy - restrict access to one of the most popular means of committing mass murder i.e. guns. 
If people were fiddling about with guillotines, scaffolds etc, as a 'hobby', this also would be a cause for alarm, and possibly action.


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## WandrinAndy (22 Dec 2012)

I see the compliant UK majority is happily regurgitating the arguments previously fed to them by the anti-gun fascists.

This majority is so incredibly well brain-washed by the media/politicians in this country that they don't even know it.

At least the Yanks still have freedom to arm themselves.... and more importantly FREE SPEECH.


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## monkeybiter (22 Dec 2012)

Jacob":32mc3r1e said:


> The 'what' is really easy - restrict access to one of the most popular means of committing mass murder i.e. guns.


I think most people agree with that, certainly most shooters do. I assume you know the difference between 'restrict' and 'ban'.



Jacob":32mc3r1e said:


> If people were fiddling about with guillotines, scaffolds etc, as a 'hobby', this also would be a cause for alarm, and possibly action.


Interesting way of thinking. Not to worry, you've still got your woodworking abilities.


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2012)

monkeybiter":31ibbvaf said:


> Jacob":31ibbvaf said:
> 
> 
> > The 'what' is really easy - restrict access to one of the most popular means of committing mass murder i.e. guns.
> ...


When I said 'restrict' I meant ban. 
Any 'shooter' is a liability. He may kill by accident, do it deliberately, have his gun stolen by somebody else who does it. 
A 'shooter' is by definition someone with an unhealthy interest in guns and should be banned from owning them.
They may feel insulted' by this but the fact is we don't want them, we don't trust them and we certainly wouldn't want them as neighbours any more than we would want paedophiles.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2012)

Jacob":1p55cl87 said:


> monkeybiter":1p55cl87 said:
> 
> 
> > andersonec":1p55cl87 said:
> ...



Clearly a townie then, Jacob. Ever seen a chicken coop after the foxes have had a bit if fun? No, thought not. So what's your solution? Nice bit of poison and a slow long lingering painful death? 

Culling deer? Absolutely not...mustn't have anyone to shoot them.

It's the man behind the gun. Guns don't shoot themselves.


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## RogerS (23 Dec 2012)

Jacob":3hoyujr5 said:


> monkeybiter":3hoyujr5 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3hoyujr5 said:
> ...



In two words....

Utter bol*ocks

We've been round and round this argument before and it goes nowhere. So I'm out.


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## monkeybiter (23 Dec 2012)

This is why there should be a minimum I.Q. to vote. Everyone is equally entitled to their opinions, but some people's argument becomes more muddled and error ridden the more they say and must surely be an embarrasment to their cohorts as they reveal their shortcomings.
I'll stand my ground but I wouldn't wrestle a pygmy.


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2012)

RogerS":1jljpc3q said:


> ..
> 
> Clearly a townie then, Jacob.


Not


> Ever seen a chicken coop after the foxes have had a bit if fun?


Yes. My own in fact. I have never seen a classroom of children shot up though.


> .... So what's your solution? Nice bit of poison and a slow long lingering painful death?


Better fencing. Cheaper and more practical than anything else. Also dog is good deterrent in the daytime. Wouldn't work for schools though. Neither would the bizarre suggestion of armed guards and arming all the staff, which wouldn't work for chickens either.


> It's the man behind the gun. Guns don't shoot themselves.


Stupid comment. It's the sheer power of the gun which turns a malevolent loony into a mass murderer.
It wouldn't matter so much if shooters just shot at one another as in a good old cowboy film but they go for easy targets - children in a class room - fish in a barrel!



> We've been round and round this argument before and it goes nowhere. .....


It does go somewhere in general - it leads to tighter gun control and reduced deaths. It may even do this in America where the majority are anti gun and don't own them. It may deter individuals from becoming shooters too, especially if enough people dare stick their heads above the parapets and speak out.


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2012)

monkeybiter":khx4h8w0 said:


> .......... I wouldn't wrestle a pygmy.


Wouldn't expect you to. Surely you'd get him in the back, with an assault rifle from a safe distance?


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## riclepp (23 Dec 2012)

Heres my 2 peeny worth.

Gus in america are as normal as tea is to the english. They are part of thier society, get rid of guns there and they lose their rights (or so some would say).

I have used guns for the one purpose and opne purpose only, but there was a reason for that. I don't agree with people have heavy calibre weapons like barret .50 or any form of assult weapon, in my eyes they are for the armed forces. But, considering the number of weapons that armys have left behind or can be bought for as much as a case of beer in some countries weapons will always be available.

As for banning them, you may ban the honset person for holding a weapon but not a criminal so this is a failed argument. I have reservations for people owning shotguns, however I am happy that landowners, farmers and gamkeeers have them. Handguns can be just as potent as some rifles and assult weapons.

So what is the answer to the gun issue, If there is one I don't know it and I don't think it will ever be answred. As long as man has the ability to draw breath it will have some form of weapon; at the moment it is guns, but what will it be tomorrow. After all most american's are pertty odd in my opinion, but there is always 1 person in the us that has the ability to destroy this world many times over, as do the russians and here we are moaning about guns, when there are more pressing worries out there when it comes to weapons. Before anyone jumps up and down, I don't condone what happened to the school in the us ast week. I grant you, it is a good argument from removing weapons from people!


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2012)

riclepp":1uhpnkzv said:


> .....As for banning them, you may ban the honset person for holding a weapon but not a criminal so this is a failed argument.


No. 
Fewer guns in circulation as a whole and fewer are available for criminals. 
ALL the guns used by criminals, even if illegally owned, originated quite legally (except those they made themselves) and many of the notable mass murderers owned their guns quite legally.


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## orchard (23 Dec 2012)

I think it's important for a human to be able to hunt for food and appreciate what's involved in satisfying a basic need, not just get a vended slab of protein encased in plastic. So I'm against a ban, it is after all the individual who acts, and to a lesser extent, the particular society at large. Saying that, I've always found it odd that people want a firearm as an end in itself.


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2012)

Interesting fact from Alistair Cooke in 1993 talking about guns post Kennedy etc. - 
The presence of a gun in a household approximately triples the likelihood of someone in the household being shot dead.


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## monkeybiter (23 Dec 2012)

orchard":2okxzza5 said:


> I think it's important for a human to be able to hunt for food and appreciate what's involved in satisfying a basic need, not just get a vended slab of protein encased in plastic. So I'm against a ban, it is after all the individual who acts, and to a lesser extent, the particular society at large. Saying that, I've always found it odd that people want a firearm as an end in itself.



Up to the handgun ban I owned 6 pistols which I shot regularly, some competitively. My interest is primarily in the design, both the ergonomics and also [mainly] the mechanical variations within. I thought I was in the early stages of building and refining a collection of significant designs. One of my first jobs was at a gunsmith's shop.

I can fully understand that you would wonder why anyone would be interested in firearms themselves, I feel the same way about cars, motorbikes and [whispers] planes. But I also respect other peoples different interests without casting aspersions with regard to illogically extrapolated motives such as blood lust, cowardice or murderous intent. 

Sorry about the last sentence, more venting than as a reply to your post.


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## riclepp (23 Dec 2012)

Jacob":1ax5hccj said:


> riclepp":1ax5hccj said:
> 
> 
> > .....As for banning them, you may ban the honset person for holding a weapon but not a criminal so this is a failed argument.
> ...



Have you never heard of smuggling, hundreds if not thousands are smuggled into the uk every year that end up on the streets maybe used in armed robbery's or even murder. Look at the wars going on around the world and there is your ready supply of wpns, waiting for someone to buy them and sell them on. The Russians are very good at this.


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## orchard (23 Dec 2012)

monkeybiter":17puzxcz said:


> orchard":17puzxcz said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's important for a human to be able to hunt for food and appreciate what's involved in satisfying a basic need, not just get a vended slab of protein encased in plastic. So I'm against a ban, it is after all the individual who acts, and to a lesser extent, the particular society at large. Saying that, I've always found it odd that people want a firearm as an end in itself.
> ...




Hahaha, hope you feel better for it!
Yea, it was quite a general statement mate, and I respect your interest in the technology, per se (I found it interesting yonks ago in the Navy when we built a simpe SMG). Reflecting further, although I've come across a few with (what I deem) an unhealthy appetite for weaponry, I've also been suspicious of a few people who use them to hunt too. I think my old man had taught me well bless him.
The Germans have a good protracted liscensing system don't they??


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## riclepp (23 Dec 2012)

Jacob":5k8mstni said:


> RogerS":5k8mstni said:
> 
> 
> > ..
> ...




Sorry Jacob, I agree with Roger S, guns don't shoot themselves or people, it is the person that carries out the act. Fact, if a wpn with a full mag is laying on the floor, it won't ever jump up and shoot anything, for it to do that it needs a person to pull the trigger. I assume the you are a psychatric Dorctor then , by you statement "It's the sheer power of the gun which turns a malevolent loony into a mass murderer." A mass murder will use whatever method they can aquire, in the US it happens to be wpns because there is so many of them and they are esay to get legally.


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2012)

Unbelievable! 
Yes we know that 'guns don't kill people'. But _people with guns_ do. If they can't get the guns they can't kill people (at all easily at any rate).
Dos anybody really need to have this explained? Ridiculous.


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## mailee (23 Dec 2012)

I agree it is not the guns that kill but the person behind them. Take away all the guns and they will find something else to kill with....vehicles, you could kill a lot of people with one of those. The bigger the vehicle the more could be killed in one fell swoop, should we also ban those too? :roll:


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2012)

Right. So we don't need to arm the armed forces they could just run over the enemy in their vehicles?
This 'it's not the guns' argument is childish nonsense.

In fact it's astonishing that so many people can confuse themselves with this idiotic little phrase.
How about 'golf clubs don't play golf'. What are the implications for golf club suppliers? Do golfers even need them?


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## bugbear (24 Dec 2012)

Jacob":3761td29 said:


> monkeybiter":3761td29 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3761td29 said:
> ...



Who is this "we" who elected you spokesman Jacob? And which dictionary did your "definition" of shooter come from? I suspect the Jacob dictionary of "words mean what I say they may" has reared its ugly head again.

It's evident you enjoy arguing on almost any subject where you have an opinion, but a little less heat and little more light would be helpful.

BugBear


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## revwayne (24 Dec 2012)

As an American participant on this board reading the thread ‘God bless America’ I found some consolation that God and America were once again used in the same breath. As a pastor, a former U.S. Army Ranger from the Vietnam War and a gun owner I have much to say about God, gun ownership and our behaviors in this world.

As an American I stand with liberty praying for peace while preparing for the worst condition that prince of darkness and his minions can generate – I’ve seen it firsthand. Our nation was founded in response to tyranny and oppression. Our Declaration of Independence described the circumstances of separation from the crown. Our Constitution and its Bill of rights describe in detail what we hold as foundational rights. Our citizenry grew out of the tyranny of empire and our 2nd Amendment which is routinely under attack from tyrants scares tyrants because the tyrant can’t control an armed citizenry. If you’re worried about mass murder then fix the societal ills. Adolf Hitler murdered 6 million Jews and others using techniques that didn’t include handguns or machine guns – he had all sorts of opportunities to murder, maim and destroy. Josef Stalin murdered nearly twice as many of his own people as Hitler and Pol Pot nearly twice the number as well. We don’t know how many Saddam Hussein murdered nor Bashir Assad. The point is not the means but the desire to control and destroy those who won’t yield.

I’ve seen firsthand a population that is disarmed and murdered – it’s heartbreaking. I watched my men hold Vietnamese and Montagnard babies in their arms for protection and comfort, their weapons slung across their backs, tears streaming down their faces at the Bolshevik destruction of those who wouldn’t yield to their evil. I am reminded of what John Stuart Mill wrote, “But war, in a good cause, is not the greatest evil which a nation can suffer. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice – a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.” John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), “The Contest in America.” Harper's New Monthly Magazine, Volume 24, Issue 143, page 683-684. Harper & Bros., New York, April 1862. 

I hate war, I hate violence, I preach against it. As Jesus said, “Be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.” At some point we have to be intelligent enough not to destroy our bodies with alcohol, tobacco and drugs. This weekend 65 people died innocently due to alcohol and drug addled drivers on the highway – no cries for the ban of autos or the booze and drugs. 435,000 people die annually from smoking, 58,000 from second hand smoke – yet guns are far more dangerous. Over 58,000 men and women from America died in combat in Vietnam from 1961 until 1975 and 58,000 innocent lives are taken each year by second hand smoke – let’s discuss mass murder.

If you intend to give a blessing to God for America we gladly accept it – if you seek to criticize please also recognize our history and stance against tyranny – the world routinely turned to us to come to its aid – a part of me hopes that we stop doing that and let those in trouble solve their problems – the other part wants to scoop up the children like we did in Vietnam and keep them from harm. I’ve learned in my few years on this orb that we get the governance we deserve. I’ve traveled the globe, walked the streets, rail stations and byways wherever I was - seeing police armed with weapons of war – why? My greatest feeling or sense of safety was in Switzerland and Israel. I’ll let you sort it out. 

Every Sunday and every day in my sent prayers I pray for peace and calm. God hears those prayers. Every day, every hour, every second the prince of darkness works his evil. _Semper_ _vigilans_.

For those of you who disagree - that's okay; seek first to understand...


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2012)

For those of you who disagree with what exactly? Your point was not clear. Are saying american school slayings are the price we have to pay?
We haven't had any in Britain since Dunblane was followed by very tight hand gun controls. I'm sure it'd work in USA.
Were Adam Lanza and his mum fighting Satan? Who won?



> if you seek to criticize please also recognize our history and stance against tyranny


Er, what? :shock: 
USA is widely regarded as terrorist nation No 1, dealing death and destruction world wide, even as we speak, with every lethal USA adventure since WW2 being an abject failure.


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## revwayne (24 Dec 2012)

Jacob, first thank you for your reply. One of the greatest challenges with discussion is redaction and excerpting text. The contextual setting is your _sitz em leben_, as it is mine. There is no justification for the murders committed anywhere in the world. Given the nature of your disdain for America and the ill-repute in which you hold us, *nothing* said in discussion will ever mollify or mitigate your contempt of us. I recognize that. Nowhere in your discussion did you address societal ills, protracted and violent entertainment nor the addictive conditions under which the world lives. Instead you choose objects of villification in a most uninformed way - sadly that discourse has become the gruel of the world's 'victims' and 'fallen' - I recognize that and bid many prayers to its affliction. I can't change nor will I try to change your disdain and contempt. I only ask that you give me the same right to my beliefs that you expect from me for yours.

I do think you understood what I said - I believe you're given to hyperbole and enjoy the sensational comment just to be provocative. Did you serve in the military? Have you given your life in service to humanity? Just curious. I return to Mill, _'A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other_.'

Respectfully,

Reverend Wayne


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## doctor Bob (24 Dec 2012)

revwayne":3n8cfw3i said:


> Did you serve in the military?



I think Jacob was a cabin boy in the battle of Trafalgar.


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## RogerP (24 Dec 2012)

revwayne":34xf1y4u said:


> ........Did you serve in the military? Have you given your life in service to humanity? .......[/i].'
> Respectfully,
> Reverend Wayne


Very few UK members on this forum will have served in the armed forces unless they joined as a career choice. Those born on or after 1st October 1939 will not have been conscripted. UK call-ups (drafts) formally ended on 31st December 1960.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2012)

I was in the school cadets briefly but got thrown out because of my peculiar marching style. Basically I was doing arm and leg together i.e. left arm and left leg forwards etc. Nobody told me!
We haven't fought as many wars as the yanks, since WW2 but where we have (Kenya, Korea, Malaya etc) we have been as squalid and brutal as the yanks in say Vietnam (now becoming a very civilised and progressive state thanks to being free of French, American colonialism)

As for holding America in 'ill repute' - a lot of Brits have a love/hate thing for America. We recognise the republican and revolutionary socialist origins (Thomas Paine was an englishman though somewhat cosmopolitan) and much else which is entirely admirable. 
We also see slavery (albeit supplanted by simple racism since the civil war), economic inequality, KKK and lynch mobs, gun violence, international terrorism (e.g. the overthrow of Allende), ruthless business practices, reckless waste of resources in the face of climate change - the list is endless. PS and the death penalty - particularly a problem if you are poor and/or black. 



> Nowhere in your discussion did you address societal ills,


This thread is wholly about one particular 'societal ill' namely American gun violence. Trying to compare/conflate with other societal ills is too complicated. One societal ill at time!

PS have a happy christmas Reverend Wayne. But do try to make the world a better place - destroy(safely) all the guns and ammunition in your possession. I'm sure Jesus would have approved and you don't want to shoot somebody accidentally do you?


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## Tom K (24 Dec 2012)

Play nicely boys you should be able to get along with so much common ground.


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## revwayne (24 Dec 2012)

Thank you for your commentary Jacob. Just a few thoughts of mine:

Where did you serve in Vietnam? I was there not a colonial but as a soldier trying my best to protect a people fighting against the Bolshevik.

“We also see slavery (albeit supplanted by simple racism since the civil war), economic inequality, KKK and lynch mobs, gun violence, international terrorism (e.g. the overthrow of Allende), ruthless business practices, reckless waste of resources in the face of climate change - the list is endless. PS and the death penalty - particularly a problem if you are poor and/or black.” We have England, France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, and Belgium to thank for slavery in the colonies. It is your corrupt heritage that ravaged our shores with this scourge. As to the depletion of natural resources the industrial revolution began in England and spread like wildfire throughout the world. Ruthless business practices? Look around you, you decry capitalism but you don’t mind the money in tax revenue it generates. Climate change are you serious? You don’t believe that. This planet has been cooling for several million years and the climatic changes are cyclical simply refer to the weather patterns of the 1950s and you will see climate changes occurring naturally. 

Racism? Do you mean the perceived racial superior of one race over another or bigotry hatred toward another because of race, religion or gender? 

If you don’t like wealth don’t make money – live hand to mouth – sell your tools and give away the money to the poor who will always be with us not because it is their destiny but because there are those who make a lot of choices who create their poverty. I deal with it every day Jacob.

The societal ills and you point to guns but turn around and sign off saying, ‘It's not about the tools’. You can’t have it both ways Jacob.

As to Jesus ah yes he did say he who has no sword let him sell his cloak and buy one.

Jacob thank you for your Christmas wishes for my family and me. May God bless you always and may this Season of Christ’s birth give you everlasting joy and peace!


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2012)

revwayne":3hvsvqil said:


> Thank you for your commentary Jacob. Just a few thoughts of mine:
> 
> Where did you serve in Vietnam? I was there not a colonial but as a soldier trying my best to protect a people fighting against the Bolshevik.


I wasn't there. Neither were the Bolsheviks. Wikipedia is good if your history is a bit weak (on the Bolsheviks that is)


> ...
> Racism? Do you mean the perceived racial superior of one race over another or bigotry hatred toward another because of race, religion or gender?


 _Imagined_ racial superiority but otherwise as you say


> ...
> As to Jesus ah yes he did say he who has no sword let him sell his cloak and buy one.


It doesn't do to quote Jesus literally or to interpret anything he says to suit yourself. He wasn't perfect and his world was 2000 years ago.


> Jacob thank you for your Christmas wishes for my family and me. May God bless you always and may this Season of Christ’s birth give you everlasting joy and peace!


Same to you Vicar - but for Christ's sake get rid of your guns!


----------



## MIGNAL (24 Dec 2012)

Meanwhile. . . . 








. . . and today two US firefighters have been shot dead. So next it's the Teachers who need to be armed, then the Firefighters. . . then the Preachers. Just the way Jesus wanted it.
What can I say. That abundance of Guns is really keeping the peace. Crikey, how much evidence do you need.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2012)

Ask the vicar. He seems to think it's a price worth paying.
Could be tricky in church - feeling for your hanky and everybody thinks you are about to draw a weapon and you get blasted - by the whole congregation! :shock: 
Then while they have their weapons out they'd start blasting at one another, in a pre-emptive sort of way.
Then the armed choir-boys would join in from the gallery.
Vicar would get out his bazooka.
It'd make a good film.


----------



## MIGNAL (24 Dec 2012)

Fking PMSL. If it wasn't such a serious business. Unfortunately, it is.


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## gregmcateer (24 Dec 2012)

Certainly is. And now the 'anti gun fascists' will suggest it is not only inappropriate to arm primary school teachers, they are going to stop firefighters carrying automatic weapons !!! - I mean how the hell will they be able to stop the Perps if they are trying to reload, aim and fire whilst holding a hose in the other hand....

As a footnote. Can't really see this debalte resolving any time soon - maybe time to knock it on the head, if you'll excuse the pun.

And finally from me; May all the families of the recent victims come to terms with their cruel losses.


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## monkeybiter (24 Dec 2012)

Jacob":spsg0zff said:


> Ask the vicar. He seems to think it's a price worth paying.
> Could be tricky in church - feeling for your hanky and everybody thinks you are about to draw a weapon and you get blasted - by the whole congregation! :shock:
> Then while they have their weapons out they'd start blasting at one another, in a pre-emptive sort of way.
> Then the armed choir-boys would join in from the gallery.
> ...



Do you seriously see this as an anti-gun argument. Sounds like a result to me :twisted: 

I note that it was the Rev. that invoked Godwin's law :wink:


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## WandrinAndy (24 Dec 2012)

gregmcateer":1csomofy said:


> .... they are going to stop firefighters carrying automatic weapons !!! - I mean how the hell will they be able to stop the Perps if they are trying to reload, aim and fire whilst holding a hose in the other hand....
> 
> As a footnote. Can't really see this debalte resolving any time soon - maybe time to knock it on the head, if you'll excuse the pun. ...



A topical post Greg as the gunman had apparently "_initially served 17 years in prison for beating his 92-year-old grandmother, Rose Spengler, to death with a hammer on July 18th 1980. He did not have a license to own a firearm._"

May I suggest that while we keep the victims in our thoughts, we request that the anti-lobby also refrain from banning hammer ownership!

Lol

To all, Seasons Greeting and Enough for 2013....


----------



## Jake (24 Dec 2012)

gregmcateer":2vkpok1h said:


> Certainly is. And now the 'anti gun fascists' will suggest it is not only inappropriate to arm primary school teachers, they are going to stop firefighters carrying automatic weapons



The best column I read on this was Mary Dejevsky in the Indie, who did a commentary piece on how she could see the nut NRA case, and her best point was allowing people to carry guns was a great leveller in that it created "equality of arms" (as it were, my phrase, not hers) between smaller people (I think she was considering herself mostly) and more powerful people.

I think she was advocating arming 5 year olds with automatic rifles and machine pistols and dung, but I'm not sure. If some nutjob hits a creche, the age limit could probably be moved down to suit.

I am glad to live in a more civilised part of the world - which is not excepted completely from gun crime but is not ridden in the same way. Not least because not all our policemen have to be armed, and not all policemen (like any class of men) can be trusted to wield that on/off life power wisely and well.


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## Jacob (24 Dec 2012)

WandrinAndy":snn0kdmi said:


> ...we request that the anti-lobby also refrain from banning hammer ownership!......


No we will leave hammers alone I promise. 
Not least because you can't kill many people with a hammer, neither fish in a barrel nor children in a school room. 
And, unlike guns, hammers are extraordinarily useful for harmless tasks like knocking in nails, for which they are used many millions of time more often than they are used for killing people.


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## kirkpoore1 (24 Dec 2012)

Guys:

There's a lot going on here, and it isn't a simple issue. With all due respect to revwayne, he is only addressing one aspect of the issue. 

1. There are people, revwayne apparently among them, who are afraid of a tyrannical government or social anarchy.
2. There are people who, having been robbed, assaulted, or living in a dangerous environment, feel that they must have a gun.
3. There are people who use guns and shooting as a hobby.
4. There are people who use guns to fulfill their weekend fantasy life of being an Old West gunslinger or supersoldier.
5. There are people who think that guns=gonads, and theirs are gonna drag on the ground.
6. There are people who's guns give them power over others. These criminals may or may not have been formally identified. I am not talking about those who use guns in their jobs (police, security, & military).
7. There are crazy people.

Now, before I go into more detail, let me give you some background. I am an American also. I was in the military, the USAF, for over 9 years. I do not own a gun. I DO enjoy shooting--if you've never tried it, you're missing out on something that can be quite fun. 

The primary problem with the gun debate in the US is that is almost inevitably done with very, very broad brush strokes. For example, if you have a gun in your house, you are three times more likely to die from a gun. But if no one in your house is mentally ill, you do not live with children, and do no live in a high crime area, your risk is much less. For another example, some people defend themselves with legal guns every year by shooting their attacker. But this number is exceeded by the number of gun suicides, and possibly by the number of spousal gun murders (not self-defenses.)

The simplistic solutions on both sides will not work everywhere. Taking away all guns is silly when, for the majority of the population, guns present only a marginal risk. Having unlimited guns is silly in high density, high crime areas where carrying a gun is frequently a precursor to using one. For the vast majority of Americans, carrying a concealed weapon provides NO additional security--you're more likely to hurt yourself than to get robbed or assaulted. For a small minority of Americans, the preceding statement is NOT true. 

You might say, well how often do guns help? How many gun accidents are there each year? The answer is that we simply don't know. The gun lobby has successfully persuaded Congress to prevent any money from being spent on studies to answer these questions. We also cannot track guns back to those dealers who are providing guns to criminals, again due to restrictions promoted by the gun lobby.

Revwayne, I would suggest to you that unlimited access to guns is more likely to bring on anarchy than removing all guns is to allow tyrranny. Since we're in a foreign forum, let me quote the Second Amendment to our audience:


> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


I believe the Supreme Court was wrong in their recent decision to sever the obligations of being part of a well-regulated militia from the right of gun ownership. Militias are controlled by the states, not the Federal Government, and certainly could act against it should it try to establish a dictatorship. 

Finally, if I like shooting, why don't I own a gun? First, I'm not one of the seven categories above. Second, I have children in the house, and all kids like to dig into things. I certainly did when I was a kid--though my dad didn't catch me playing with his guns. Third, they aren't cheap. Last Christmas, my family and my sister and her husband went out shooting with their guns. I'm sure we went through $300 in ammunition in a couple of hours. As I said, it ain't cheap. Third, my wife suffers from depression, and I don't want her to be a statistic. Finally, I like woodworking a lot more, so that's a much better hobby for me.

Kirk


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## RogerP (25 Dec 2012)

Enough, enough I can't take any more. :shock: 






Happy Christmas!


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## riclepp (25 Dec 2012)

I am out of this thread, as it appears that whatever Jacob say, goes; despite the fact he is spouting his own opion and has no actual proof to back it up.

Merry Christmas one and all. Have a great day :ho2 :ho2 ccasion5:


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## gregmcateer (25 Dec 2012)

Kirk,
Thank you for putting a well-balanced and thoughtful perspective into the mix - it certainly helped me over this side of the pond.
I hope you good people in the States find some way through the impasse that is beneficial to the majority, if not everybody. Such that legitimate gun users continue safely and legitimately, whilst the innocent victims we have all heard about are not added to.

Merry Christmas to all.

Greg


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## Silverbirch (25 Dec 2012)

gregmcateer":1vsftb22 said:


> Kirk,
> Thank you for putting a well-balanced and thoughtful perspective into the mix - it certainly helped me over this side of the pond.
> I hope you good people in the States find some way through the impasse that is beneficial to the majority, if not everybody. Such that legitimate gun users continue safely and legitimately, whilst the innocent victims we have all heard about are not added to.
> 
> ...



Well said!

Ian


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## WandrinAndy (26 Dec 2012)

riclepp":1xtslew6 said:


> I am out of this thread, as it appears that whatever Jacob say, goes; despite the fact he is spouting his own opion and has no actual proof to back it up.



Not sure I agree with you Richard.

Without exception my ex-wife always insisted on having the last word, so whatever she said goes.... 

"Goes" in my one ear and out the other! :wink: :lol: :ho2


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## revwayne (26 Dec 2012)

I pray that you all had a wonderful Christmas and that your hopes of a joyous New Year will be fulfilled. I want to say a few last words before I stop posting in this thread.

Jacob, Jesus was perfect – you aren’t. You are a classic leftist, obstructionist whose desire seems to be the nanny state in its most doting form. You have not studied nor do you understand history as many leftists don’t – it is your trenchant desire to rewrite it. Bolsheviks are the party of Lenin – the word means majority followers. It matters not the geography the People’s Army of North Vietnam reflects the Leninist adherence. What we fail to remember we are condemned to repeat. The behavior of the left is to use ridicule and mockery to deride and cajole the free into their pigsty – as my father would say ‘two things happen when you wrestle with a pig you get dirty and the pig likes it.’ He’s right, enjoy the pigsty!

We will not agree on the gun policies that are espoused in Europe and you have the absolute right to believe in what you believe. I don’t live in ‘fear’ contrary to what my expatriate countryman has stated. Our nation was founded in anathema to the tyrannical rule so widespread in Europe and especially England at the time of our Revolution. All of our founding philosophy grew in discontent. Even our planting on this shore grew out of discontent. There is a restlessness of freedom that the complacent and yielded will never understand and that’s okay. We care what happens to you. I am an adherent of the policy that says let them have their condition – don’t wade into it and become a victim with them.

My ancestors are European: English, French and German as well as Iroquois

I have been a student, a soldier, a businessman and a pastor – I will always be a student – there is much to learn that’s why I came to this board. There is nothing you can say that will harm me and all of what you say is read by me and the hype and hyperbole does little more than make me smile knowing the futility of the words that come so cheaply and are thrown about so loosely that is the way of the Alinskyites, the Bolsheviks and the Marxists you may include the Maoists if that makes you happy. 

I will continue to visit this forum; ask questions; share my woodworking plans; projects and limited experience. I am still a student even into my dotage. Please use common sense, understand the data, be truthful, be kind and if you don’t believe in the other person’s faith in God at least be respectful of his or her belief.

I won’t post again in this thread. I don’t know anything of Godwin’s Law, rule or theory. God bless each of you. Let the ‘chips’ fall where they may; keep your tools sharp and you ruler handy.

Reverend Wayne

P.S. To my SAS brother Ric - semper vigilans all the way!


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## RogerS (26 Dec 2012)

revwayne":1pcgd5s5 said:


> ...
> 
> Jacob, Jesus was perfect – you aren’t. You are a classic leftist, obstructionist whose desire seems to be the nanny state in its most doting form. You have not studied nor do you understand history as many leftists don’t – it is your trenchant desire to rewrite it. Bolsheviks are the party of Lenin – the word means majority followers. It matters not the geography the People’s Army of North Vietnam reflects the Leninist adherence. What we fail to remember we are condemned to repeat. The behavior of the left is to use ridicule and mockery to deride and cajole the free into their pigsty – as my father would say ‘two things happen when you wrestle with a pig you get dirty and the pig likes it.’ He’s right, enjoy the pigsty!
> 
> ...



Thank you, Rev Wayne. That little sentence sums up what many of us think. =D> =D>


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## Jacob (26 Dec 2012)

Godwin's law.

Interesting sermons from Rev Wayne, our correspondant from the American "Christian right' also known as 'America's own Taliban'. 
In many ways the Taliban and Al Qaeda are a mirror image of American attitudes with american militarism being their chief recruiting force.
The 'War on terrorism' has had exactly the opposite of the intended effect and has fed and nurtured it instead. Every dead innocent (collateral damage) from drone bombers and other militarism creates new martyrs, willing terrorists and suicide bombers bent on revenge.
Good for the armaments business but bad for absolutely everybody else, especially the dead on both sides.


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## Slinger (26 Dec 2012)

As someone in their late seventies, who has only recently joined this site, I am appalled at the rudeness of Jacob and the vitriol which emanates from him when he pontificates on subjects that he so obviously has little true knowledge of. He seems to have been particularly rude, in my opinion, to members of this site who live in America. In a previous life I have been a Counsellor & one of the underlying principles is to offer advice & not try to ram it down other peoples throats, as Jacob seems to be doing most of the time. According to the moderators he is a 'Valued Contributor' (???) & yet at the time of me joining, he appeared to have been instrumental in the withdrawal from the site of David Charlesworth, a person I do not know, but who seems to enjoy a first class reputation in woodworking circles (why was this?). Is it not time for the moderators to pull the plug on this particular thread.
Slinger


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## UTMonkey (26 Dec 2012)

Someone, please pull the plug.


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## Silverbirch (26 Dec 2012)

RogerS":1pkxz8hc said:


> revwayne":1pkxz8hc said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



But not all of us.


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## Gill (26 Dec 2012)

Silverbirch":8g465iqn said:


> But not all of us.


 =D> =D> =D> 

I'm happy our country can celebrate its past without living in it. What might have been appropriate for the 18th century isn't necessarily appropriate for the 21st century. I believe our culture has advanced since the 18th century, but not all other other nations can claim as much.


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## Jacob (26 Dec 2012)

WandrinAndy":2jc6alcn said:


> ......
> A topical post Greg as the gunman had apparently "_initially served 17 years in prison for beating his 92-year-old grandmother, Rose Spengler, to death with a hammer on July 18th 1980. He did not have a license to own a firearm._"
> 
> May I suggest that while we keep the victims in our thoughts, we request that the anti-lobby also refrain from banning hammer ownership!
> ...


Not necessary - you try killing a class room of kids, or an unarmed policeman, with hammer! No chance. You might get one from behind (or a 92 year old) if you were lucky, but that'd be it.


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## WandrinAndy (26 Dec 2012)

Gill":3ctc4nl1 said:


> I'm happy our country can celebrate its past without living in it. What might have been appropriate for the 18th century isn't necessarily appropriate for the 21st century. I believe our culture has advanced since the 18th century, but not all other other nations can claim as much.




Do I detect just a hint of national superiority there Gill? 

I agree we Brits have advanced in some areas, but most definitely not in others... One of our biggest faults is that we have difficulty in recognising that there are contexts on the planet that differ from our particular (and brain-washed) context.... The 21st century in our context can even be many centuries divorced from that of other contexts.

I'm afraid that dear Blighty is very much in decline........ We are far too risk averse....... and vastly over-governed by the political classes.


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## Gill (26 Dec 2012)

WandrinAndy":1wlrpxh8 said:


> Do I detect just a hint of national superiority there Gill?


Yes  . Our approach is superior because we do not allow ourselves to become hidebound by antiquated laws which cannot be amended when it is in the interest of our society to do so. 'Dear Blighty' is not in decline... it may not be the powerhouse it once was but it remains a force to be reckoned with and has the wherewithal to re-invent itself. If our fortunes on the world stage seem to be dipping at present, it would be a mistake to think we cannot come back in a different form, as strong as ever.

Someone once said that Afghanistan is a country with a 13th century outlook in the 21st century. I don't understand how a country with an 18th century outlook can succeed in the 21st century either. The vast majority of Americans are fine people and I hope that one day they will realise they are no longer frontiersmen who need to be ready to defend themselves against British invaders. I may be wrong but I think the likelihood of the British invading the USA is low.


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## cambournepete (27 Dec 2012)

In my opinion the second amendment is not relevant any more for the reasons Gill gave. Furthermore when it was written they didn't have automatic weapons like they have now. I completely fail to see how it is in anyone's interest for ordinary members of the public to possess automatic weapons.


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## bugbear (27 Dec 2012)

Slinger":qp4lvjov said:


> According to the moderators he is a 'Valued Contributor' (???)



Those "ratings" are simply a translation of how many posts someone has made. There's a simple table in the forum software of number to label,

The quality of the posting is not a factor 

BugBear


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## Jacob (27 Dec 2012)

Slinger":1c1se878 said:


> As someone in their late seventies, who has only recently joined this site, I am appalled at the rudeness of Jacob and the vitriol which emanates from him when he pontificates on subjects that he so obviously has little true knowledge of. He seems to have been particularly rude, in my opinion, to members of this site who live in America.


Only the vicar. I think his opinions are appalling. I don't think I'm alone either. The vicar even misquotes Jesus in support of armaments-for-all (ignoring the better known and well understood "for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword").
On the other hand our other American *kirkpoore1* sounded very sensible


> .......ram it down other peoples throats, as Jacob seems to be doing most of the time.


And you are doing it now. This isn't a counselling session it's supposed to be a lively debate. You could adopt a counselling approach if you think that would be effective, no need to be rude and aggressive.


> ..... he appeared to have been instrumental in the withdrawal from the site of David Charlesworth,....


Really? Why do you say this? Seems very unlikely to me. A very odd thing to say. Is he posting somewhere else?


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## andersonec (27 Dec 2012)

revwayne":10rijc3h said:


> Our nation was founded in response to tyranny and oppression.
> 
> For those of you who disagree - that's okay; seek first to understand...



Wayne,

I presume you are talking about the oppression of the native Americans and the trade in slaves and as for the mass killings, you seem to have forgotten the Nuclear bombs dropped in the women and children of Hiroshima (Circa 150,000 killed) and nagasaki Circa 70.000 killed) which was preceded by a firebombing campaign designed to destroy many Japanese cities.

What I was trying to point out is the mentality behind decision making like this.





The kinder egg poses a potential danger to children...........
For all you Scotsmen out there, the humble Haggis is also banned in the US

Andy


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## Silverbirch (27 Dec 2012)

> . For all you Scotsmen out there, the humble Haggis is also banned in the US



So not all bad, then. :lol:


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## RogerS (27 Dec 2012)

andersonec":1gh8kn70 said:


> ....
> .....you seem to have forgotten the Nuclear bombs dropped in the women and children of Hiroshima (Circa 150,000 killed) and nagasaki Circa 70.000 killed) which was preceded by a firebombing campaign designed to destroy many Japanese cities.
> ......
> 
> Andy



I'm sorry but I think you are out of order with this one. Were you there during World War II ? It's very easy (and indefensible) to take the moral high ground from the comfort of your armchair in 2012.


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## dj. (27 Dec 2012)

From Harvard university.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... icide.html

So chances are 40 million of the earlier quoted 80 million gun owners in the US will suffer from some sort of mental illness in their life.

Personally that`s not a thought I`d like to have to live with, so am more than happy to live over this side of the pond.


Regards.

dj.


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2012)

revwayne":ixh5ml11 said:


> I pray that you all had a wonderful Christmas and that your hopes of a joyous New Year will be fulfilled. I want to say a few last words before I stop posting in this thread.
> 
> Jacob, Jesus was perfect – you aren’t. You are a classic leftist, obstructionist whose desire seems to be the nanny state in its most doting form. You have not studied nor do you understand history as many leftists don’t – it is your trenchant desire to rewrite it. Bolsheviks are the party of Lenin – the word means majority followers. It matters not the geography the People’s Army of North Vietnam reflects the Leninist adherence. What we fail to remember we are condemned to repeat. The behavior of the left is to use ridicule and mockery to deride and cajole the free into their pigsty – as my father would say ‘two things happen when you wrestle with a pig you get dirty and the pig likes it.’ He’s right, enjoy the pigsty!
> 
> ...


Very interesting defensive wall of paranoid text from someone who claims not to live in fear! Classic. So interesting that I've copied it to work over in more detail.
Wayne - it's safe to put down your weapons and come out! You too can join the civilised world. You'd be welcome, as long as you leave your weapons at the door!

PS To get revwayne's fear into perspective - 3,000 people died at the hands of Al qaeda (we presume) in 2001 (9/11) a shocking and horrifying event.
In the intervening 11 years approximately 110,000 Americans have been shot dead by their fellow Americans.


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## RogerS (28 Dec 2012)

dj.":1ydsxr02 said:


> From Harvard university.
> 
> http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... icide.html
> 
> ...



That's his figures. Others beg to differ.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2012/12 ... ntly-high/


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## dj. (28 Dec 2012)

RogerS":3707z274 said:


> dj.":3707z274 said:
> 
> 
> > From Harvard university.
> ...




I`m unsure what your point is there Roger, but personally I find you link more disturbing than mine.
My link says there is a 50% chance of suffering metal illness in a life time.
Where as you link reports a 20% chance in one year.

Whichever figures you wish to believe it doesn`t change the fact that there are many millions of people in the US who any rational person would not like to think has access to a gun if only for their own personal safety, especially when you consider that 8.5 million had serious thoughts on taking their own life in one year. (your link)


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2012)

Had to google 'Alinskyite' (in the vicar's sermon above). 

Very interesting, I'd never heard of him before. Yes I'm probably an 'Alinskyite' :lol:


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## RogerS (28 Dec 2012)

dj.":1fm87fnl said:


> .....especially when you consider that 8.5 million had serious thoughts on taking their own life in one year. (your link)



But isn't that a red-herring as far as this thread is concerned. If someone wants to commit suicide then there are plenty of ways to do it. One could argue that having a gun and using it is probably a better solution then jumping out in front of a train...considering the inevitable trauma that the driver is going to suffer.


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## Tom K (28 Dec 2012)

My God consider for a moment the number of crazed loons that will have access to sharp scissors in their lifetime! (homer) Just imagine what those OCD types could do let loose with a nail brush.


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## Jacob (28 Dec 2012)

Tom K":2br9dn7w said:


> My God consider for a moment the number of crazed loons that will have access to sharp scissors in their lifetime! (homer) Just imagine what those OCD types cpold do let loose with a nail brush.


Not a lot compared to what they could do with a gun. 
Otherwise we would only need to arm the armed forces with scissors and nail-brushes.


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## dj. (28 Dec 2012)

RogerS":35is546a said:


> dj.":35is546a said:
> 
> 
> > .....especially when you consider that 8.5 million had serious thoughts on taking their own life in one year. (your link)
> ...



My thought was that the availability of a gun gave an impulse decision to take ones life a far higher likely hood of success. I`m not saying there isn`t other ways to end your life, but it is the quickest & most efficient i could think of if done on the spur of the moment if the balance of your mind was disturbed & you had easy access to a gun.

But to go back to the original theme of this thread this report makes pretty damming reading.

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm

Regards.


dj.


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## andersonec (28 Dec 2012)

RogerS":2fkix4vm said:


> andersonec":2fkix4vm said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...




Not taking the moral high ground Roger, only stating a fact. It grinds on me when folks quote other countries excesses of violence but forget their own, and the atomic bombing of Japanese cities was an excess, Japan never attacked any American soil or targeted American civilians, unless you count two small Aleutian Islands, and they were soon recaptured with the help of the Canadians.
The Rev writes about soldiers in Vietnam holding and sheltering children, good to hear, but he doesn't mention the bombing of civilians in North Vietnam (The USA dropped 8 million tons of bombs dropped in Vietnam in total)

Also to bring his god into what was a discussion about gun culture is also out of order, after stating how perfect his god was/is the Rev needs to re-read his bible (especially the Old Testament) and realise just how much of a genocider his god was, in one swift act he sends floods (Noah's story) to wipe out complete populations and the many minor misdemeanors for which people must be put to death is truly mind boggling, Had the Old Testament been written as an instructional book today it would have been banned. Here is a list of some of the killings carried out by his God http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co. ... bible.html


Back to the gun culture..........
Over 10.8 million guns were sold in the USA in 2011, and if the reason to own a gun (other than sport) is to defend yourself, just how many guns do you need to carry out this task?
(According to Ammoland (a firearms magazine) more guns were purchased last year in the United States than than there are active duty military members in the world’s fourteen largest armies combined) an extract from the site from where the statistic was gathered. http://lewrockwell.com/slavo/slavo93.1.html

Has anyone heard of The Werther Effect? well these have not been on the news. http://rt.com/news/uruguay-clinic-shooting-copycat-199/

Just one more....http://rt.com/usa/news/gunman-shot-mall-oregon-863/

Andy


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## andersonec (28 Dec 2012)

Silverbirch":3hoh8pxq said:


> > . For all you Scotsmen out there, the humble Haggis is also banned in the US
> 
> 
> 
> So not all bad, then. :lol:



But if one of them should get loose Silver, it doesn't stand a chance :-" BOOM!

Andy


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## RogerS (28 Dec 2012)

andersonec":1ehusvfs said:


> RogerS":1ehusvfs said:
> 
> 
> > andersonec":1ehusvfs said:
> ...



Keep clambering up that slope.


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## Jake (28 Dec 2012)

RogerS":2sae913l said:


> Keep clambering up that slope.



Is it nicer at the bottom of the pits?


----------



## RogerS (28 Dec 2012)

Jake":2knsmnan said:


> RogerS":2knsmnan said:
> 
> 
> > Keep clambering up that slope.
> ...



Well, as a lawyer, you should know 8) 

Boom - tish! :lol:


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## Jake (28 Dec 2012)

RogerS":1ff06aqi said:


> Jake":1ff06aqi said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":1ff06aqi said:
> ...



Yes, we come across all sorts as clients, and have to do our best for them all. So I've vicariously seen some peaks and troughs I will admit. I'm not sure I'll join you in sneering at those who are not at the bottom - they are much easier to represent in most ways.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Dec 2012)

"Japan didn't attack American soil or American civilians". Someone seems to have airbrushed Pearl Harbour. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved hundreds of thousands, if not many millions of lives by cutting the war short. My daughter is 17yo. and she has just been to Hiroshima, and she says the majority of anti US feeling is among young people who cannot have known the horror of the event or the aftermath. She made Japanese friends that she will have probably for life - they distinguish between British and American, but hell, if we had had the bomb first , we would have used it. 
Even Oppenheimer didn't regret it's use.


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## jakethebuilder (29 Dec 2012)

As usual, I've been away from the computer for most of this discussion. The core issue, gun control, is certainly a big issue here in the United States. Like many of you, I grew up with shotguns and rifles. Hunting deer, squirrels, and rabbits was common when I was growing up. For the most part, almost everyone I know owns at least a shotgun or .22 rifle. I no longer hunt anything, but there are the occassional nuisance animals, usually raccoons, or dogs that have been thrown out by their owners, and then turn to eating people's chickens or cats, or smaller dogs. I never bought a handgun until our home was burglarized, 12 years ago. It was an impulse purchase, based on the emotion of fear. I am glad to own it, because it is much easier to keep handy at the bedside, if needed in the middle of the night. We live about thirty miles from the city, in a largely wooded area. Still, there have been 3 murders (with handguns) within two miles of my house, in the last 3 years. One was someone crazed on meth, and the other two were the result of someone chasing after someone who burglarized their homes. The reason I own a handgun is purely and simply to defend myself and my family, in case of some senseless attack. I do not think people should strap on pistols and walk around town with them, like in the old western movies. There are many who do believe that way. The problem with gun control, is that there are already so many guns about, that even an outright ban on sales would not remove the existing guns from the streets. As someone said earlier in the thread, most gun owners own multiple guns. Most of the people I know who are avid deer hunters, own at least 2 large bore rifles, a couple of shotguns, and several handguns. Gun ownership is ingrained in our culture, for better or worse. It is a very difficult situation. If it was feasible to get rid of all the guns in the hands of criminals, then many people would favor gun control, but like most people, I don't believe that is possible. Therefore, if guns are made illegal, then only the criminals will still have guns. I wish something would have been done to control handguns fifty years ago. We would certainly be better off today.


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## Gill (29 Dec 2012)

Is it beyond the capacity of America to at least make a start on addressing the problem by outlawing automatic weapons? I don't see why hunters would need them to bring down deer and raccoons. Alternatively, why not go the whole hog and give everyone hand grenades, flame-throwers and surface to air missiles (just the thing for bringing down the odd mallard or two  )?

It beats me how the NRA can advocate the cultivation of an atmosphere of fear by saying that armed guards need to be stationed at schools. What would that teach America's children - that America is a land of hatred and fear? What about the risk of children being caught in the crossfire of a firefight? What if an assailant disarms a guard and gathers yet another weapon which can be used against children?

I like Americans. The vast majority are caring, peaceable and industrious people who hate gratuitous violence. Yet it must be blatantly obvious that the current situation is unacceptable and that action needs to be taken. To my mind, if what you are doing isn't working, you need to do something else. What is worse - inaction which means America will continue to lose its children to murderous gunmen or an attempt to improve the situation? Even if the attempt fails, at least something will have been done to prove that you care! I know all individual parents care for their individual children but I sometimes wonder if America in general cares for its children in general.

Sorry to hear about your home being _burgled_  , Jake. We also have burglars on this side of the Pond but it's reassuring to know that the chances of them coming into our homes equipped with firearms is extremely small. It's highly unlikely that burglary here will ever lead to lives being jeopardised. Very, very few Brits would contemplate arming themselves before retiring for the night because of the threat of burglary.


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## orchard (29 Dec 2012)

Good post Jake. Sorry to hear that the situation there sounds fubar.


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## Sportique (29 Dec 2012)

Good post Jake but


> I wish something would have been done to control handguns fifty years ago. We would certainly be better off today.


 surely this is the nub of the present predicament - stop procrastinating and make a start on dealing with the issue, otherwise in 50 years time you will still be saying the same thing.

Dave


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## Jacob (29 Dec 2012)

Sportique":1s80435x said:


> Good post Jake but
> 
> 
> > I wish something would have been done to control handguns fifty years ago. We would certainly be better off today.
> ...


One step at a time. It could take a generation. 
On the other hand some far more complicated situations have resolved in a very short time once the start button was pressed e.g. collapse of Communism and reunification of Germany.
Houses built on sand can disappear over-night.

This is for gun toting rev wayne:
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."


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## andersonec (29 Dec 2012)

jakethebuilder":1ms804qv said:


> Hunting deer, squirrels, and rabbits was common when I was growing up. For the most part, almost everyone I know owns at least a shotgun or .22 rifle. I no longer hunt anything, but there are the occassional nuisance animals, usually raccoons, or dogs that have been thrown out by their owners, and then turn to eating people's chickens or cats, or smaller dogs. I never bought a handgun until our home was burglarized, 12 years ago. It was an impulse purchase, based on the emotion of fear. I am glad to own it, because it is much easier to keep handy at the bedside, if needed in the middle of the night.



Jake,

A couple of questions which are not designed to annoy, just want to get some insight as to the reactions and results of the following scenarios.

I can see that where you live, hunting for vermin may be necessary but why deer? were they used for food or just sport?

You state in your post that two of the killings in your area were done by chasing down intruders, were they then shot in the back? if so what happened to the person doing the shooting? surely shooting someone running away is not self defence.

You have a firearm by your bedside and someone who is unarmed enters your home, you wake up and in your half awake state you grab your gun and shoot them, what is the outcome?

An armed intruder is wide awake and on on full alert when he enters your home, he comes face to face with you, in your half awake state, with a gun in your hand, who do you think will fire first? and do you think he would have fired had you been unarmed? 

Andy


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## kirkpoore1 (29 Dec 2012)

Andy:

In the vast majority of the US, deer have only two predators--coyotes and cars. And the coyotes don't eat very many of them. They are pests who thrive in a suburban/semi-rural environment. Most states have at least three deer hunting seasons (bow, black powder, and regular season) and the number of deer taken is still declining because hunting is becoming less popular. They do a great deal damage to plants and cause a lot of accidents. In some places you can get all the deer & doe tags you want and fill up the chest freezer with the meat.

Kirk


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## Jacob (30 Dec 2012)

Jacob":gzs1md5c said:


> Had to google 'Alinskyite' (in the vicar's sermon above).
> 
> Very interesting, I'd never heard of him before. Yes I'm probably an 'Alinskyite' :lol:


Reading about Alinsky reminded me of Elinor Ostrom who died recently.
I'm a fan of her too. I wonder if they ever met? Another American socialist, no doubt in league with Satan! 
Semper vigilans, there's a lot of them are out there quietly working away. :shock: :lol:


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## jakethebuilder (31 Dec 2012)

Many people do eat the deer they kill. There are processing houses that only open during the Fall and Winter, for just that purpose. Sadly, many people are only after that trophy buck, with the large antlers. As someone else mentioned, deer are severely overpopulated in much of the United States, Oklahoma included. At least twice as many deer are killed by cars, as hunters. There are just too many of them. The various hunting seasons are intended, in part, to manage the population. The problem is, in our area at least, so many people pass up shooting does, in favor of that trophy buck, that there are probably ten does to every buck, and the population continues to grow every year. Many hunters take advantage of Primitive Firearms Season, archery season, and regular rifle season. One person could potentially kill up to six deer every year, although few actually do. Of course, all this discussion is entirely separate from the issue of gun control. When it comes to deer hunting, I see no need for a gun that holds more than 5 rounds, ever. Even that is probably overkill (no pun intended). I have no idea why automatic weapons have ever been allowed in the hands of the general population. As for the scenario of being awakened in the night. I hope I never have to face that situation. I have no way of knowing how I would react in such a situation. I'm certainly no warrior. A burglar is one thing, but there is a recent trend here for what the media refers to as "home invasions", where the perpetrators, usually two or more people, knowing people are home, kick in the front door, guns in hand, and then proceed to rob the homeowners at gunpoint. That seems to be mostly an urban phenomenon, so far. It hasn't happened in our area that I know of. Regarding the murders I referred to by people chasing away burglars: It was the homeowners who were killed. The homeowners unwisely chased the burglars in their vehicles, and when they caught up with them, the burglars shot the homeowners. In both cases, the people were arrested just a few days later. All this makes it sound like a scary place to live, but it really isn't. The good people still far outnumber the criminals, although the media would have you think otherwise. It's just when those types of crimes occur near your home, it puts a little more doubt in your mind, as to how safe you really are....Sorry to be so long winded about all this.


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## andersonec (1 Jan 2013)

jakethebuilder":2epkqqpj said:


> Many people do eat the deer they kill. There are processing houses that only open during the Fall and Winter, for just that purpose. Sadly, many people are only after that trophy buck, with the large antlers. As someone else mentioned, deer are severely overpopulated in much of the United States, Oklahoma included. At least twice as many deer are killed by cars, as hunters. There are just too many of them. The various hunting seasons are intended, in part, to manage the population. The problem is, in our area at least, so many people pass up shooting does, in favor of that trophy buck, that there are probably ten does to every buck, and the population continues to grow every year. Many hunters take advantage of Primitive Firearms Season, archery season, and regular rifle season. One person could potentially kill up to six deer every year, although few actually do. Of course, all this discussion is entirely separate from the issue of gun control. When it comes to deer hunting, I see no need for a gun that holds more than 5 rounds, ever. Even that is probably overkill (no pun intended). I have no idea why automatic weapons have ever been allowed in the hands of the general population. As for the scenario of being awakened in the night. I hope I never have to face that situation. I have no way of knowing how I would react in such a situation. I'm certainly no warrior. A burglar is one thing, but there is a recent trend here for what the media refers to as "home invasions", where the perpetrators, usually two or more people, knowing people are home, kick in the front door, guns in hand, and then proceed to rob the homeowners at gunpoint. That seems to be mostly an urban phenomenon, so far. It hasn't happened in our area that I know of. Regarding the murders I referred to by people chasing away burglars: It was the homeowners who were killed. The homeowners unwisely chased the burglars in their vehicles, and when they caught up with them, the burglars shot the homeowners. In both cases, the people were arrested just a few days later. All this makes it sound like a scary place to live, but it really isn't. The good people still far outnumber the criminals, although the media would have you think otherwise. It's just when those types of crimes occur near your home, it puts a little more doubt in your mind, as to how safe you really are....Sorry to be so long winded about all this.



Not long winded at all Jake, it's just nice to hear stuff from the horse's mouth so to speak, the media always likes to make a meal of things and only want to sensationalize things so it's not the best place to find the real facts.

I misread your previous and thought it was the thieves who had been shot, In this scenario though it was not a sensible thing to do, chase after someone who had just robbed your house, if you had seen enough to know what car they were driving surely it would then have been a job for the police, like you said, they 'unwisely' chased the thieves.

Automatic or even Semiautomatic (self loading) are weapons for combat troops and have no place in civilian hands, rifles surely should be kept for hunting or target shooting purposes only, if 20 rounds are needed to kill a deer then something is wrong with the user and if you need something to 'defend' yourself with then the answer is a pistol, rifles are for using at distances of one, two or even three hundred yards, even then the owner needs some form of training, not only how to use said weapon but also when.

I recently watched a video on youtube where a father read his daughters facebook post then put six .45 rounds through her laptop whilst it was on the ground in front of him, mmmmm, surely a hammer would have sufficed to render the laptop useless (and a lot cheaper) a gun in broad daylight, in a field, with cars driving by, at one stage he wasn't sure how many rounds he had left, THAT is when accidents happen, "empty magazine?" squeezes trigger "whoops" passerby gets taken to hospital, totally and utterly irresponsible way to handle a weapon but if that is the familiarity being bred then the government or the NRA needs to promote some sort of safety/ training regime.

Have a safe new year.
Andy


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jan 2013)

Surely a little sense should prevail; even Americans aren't that stupid? Surely the place to start is to decide which guns to limit?


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## nanscombe (2 Jan 2013)

Some do tend to complain when America acts like the Worlds Policemen and tells other countries what to do.

So what does that make us, the Worlds conscience?


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## jakethebuilder (2 Jan 2013)

All good points....Hate to break the bad news to you, but yes, many Americans ARE that stupid. The functional intelligence of the average American has dropped drammatically in the last twenty years or so. I see young college graduates, who couldn't have finished high school thirty years ago. Lots of people have gone absolutely crazy for weapons of all types. Movies and video games promoting all that fire power, certainly don't help matters. I agree that one of the first things to do is decide which weapons should be limited. Even that debate could take years. I'm not the type to get militant about such matters. Better to let those more passionate hash it all out. I resign myself to emailing my representatives in the government, and let them know my opinions about such things. One tiny voice, but if everyone did it, the representatives would be more informed, rather than relying on the lobbyist groups to tell them what to think all the time.


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