# Car Diagnostic scanners - anybody use them?



## Ali (7 Mar 2017)

I have had an appalling run of motoring these last 9 months running into the thousands, the root cause of this being misdignosis and finding a garage with proper diagnostic/obd software.

In late summer I had problems with my mercedes sprinter and some sensor equipment failing which I took to a local garage with a snap on diagnostic machine, tried changing parts with no luck. Was then told I really needed someone with the Mercedes Star diagnostic system to investigate, couldn't find a local garage who had it (and the ones that did wouldn't touch a commercial vehicle) and in the end had to take it to a garage many miles away, whilst crawling up the motorway with no torque and no speed. A drive I never want to do again. The garage managed to fix it, in the end replacing the very same sensors I had replaced and more importantly reconfiguring the ecu and fault codes with the proper software.

I have since had problems with a recent car change (2007 BMW 520D), with multiple problems and multiple misdiagnoses from my local trusted mechanic - who unfortunately has never owned any diagnostic equipment nor seems to have any interest in owning any. After several misdiagnoses and trying to solve a power loss problem he had to call in an 'expert' who used some sort of diagnostic equipment and subsequently found 23 fault codes (even though I never had any engine warning lights!).

I was just wondering if anybody else with an interest uses any diagnostic software and if it is worth investing in as I can't go on with having such problems in the future, has really cost me in all ways. Motoring never used to feel so hard


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## pcb1962 (7 Mar 2017)

I bought one of these when my garage told me that my Mercedes was showing a gearbox fault code that I should get looked at by a main dealer. It showed me the fault code, which I then googled, and found that it was going to cost me upwards of a thousand pound for a job that takes about 2 hours, so it's still waiting to be fixed


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## LancsRick (7 Mar 2017)

You can get an OBD2 scanner for under a tenner that will link up to your smartphone. I've used it on mine a couple of times with the same result as the offering in the garage.


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## acewoodturner (7 Mar 2017)

I am fortunate that my workshop is next to a one man garage who has the scanners and he checks it for free although he doesn't always get the work to do. My main mechanic is about half a mile away and there is no problem with him sticking the van on a scanner. Main dealers around here (Fife) will charge about £90 plus vat to stick it on a scanner even if it only takes a couple of minutes. The trick is not just getting the codes, its how you interpret them which is just as important!

Mike


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## mbartlett99 (7 Mar 2017)

pcb1962":1xsr0e48 said:


> I bought one of these when my garage told me that my Mercedes was showing a gearbox fault code that I should get looked at by a main dealer. It showed me the fault code, which I then googled, and found that it was going to cost me upwards of a thousand pound for a job that takes about 2 hours, so it's still waiting to be fixed



I got a similar looking unit for my range rover - silly person proof and has saved me 100s. Even if it was just to reset a suspension fault my local charge 50 quid so I'd say it was worth it. Do a little research though and get the correct model specific unit.


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## xiphidius (7 Mar 2017)

Invaluable Saved me a few pounds by knowing exactly what was wrong to present to the Stealers...in the vain hope they dont put me over a barrel and take advantage.lol


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## [email protected] (8 Mar 2017)

I bought one couple of yrs ago, paid £250 for it. I like to do my own repairs to vehicles and its been invaluable. Best bit is it gives live data (with engine running or driving) which gives info relating to fuel trims etc. Be aware that fault codes should not be taken literally but they do give a good clue. An experienced use (not me!) will usually tell from a fault code what the problem most likely is. Myself, I google the fault code and go from there..


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## jimmy_s (8 Mar 2017)

I have an old VW Phaeton that has a lot of electronics on it. I bought a VAG Com diagnstics unit from Ross Tech for it and have found it invaluable for fault finding and repair as I do the majority of the work on the thing myself - as the garages hate working on it. 
It would be hard to carry out any work on the car without proper diagnostics. You can have a number of fault codes from silly things - especially if you have had a flat battery so your 23 fault codes may not all be huge problems - 1 fault can bring up codes in a number of modules. I had a situation where I was driving along quite happy next thing I know the car crapped itself and the ABS, Traction Control and ESC warning lights lit up and it went into limp mode. I got the VAG Com on and found that the steering wheel angle sensor (clock spring) had gone. Because the car has so much electronics and modules the signal from the steering wheel angle sensor is sent to a number of other modules in the car so the ABS system, Stability Control, Traction Control and even the headlight control module all end up with error codes. With the diagnostics I could access the output from the steering wheel angle sensor and check its output with the engine running, turning the wheel. Also when I replaced it I had to calliberate the new sensor which you cant really do without a diagnostics unit.

I can't remember how much I paid for mine but its pretty good - I can access all the control modules including the ECU's/ Airbags etc. Without one I would be guessing as to the cause of my many woes with the old VW. You need to spend a bit of time getting to know how the control modules within the car operate and so on to make the best use of any diagnostics you buy.


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## undergroundhunter (8 Mar 2017)

Ok as a professional technician I would say go for it and buy one but please don't just assume it will tell you whats wrong with the vehicle, also google is a good resource but its not always right, the same fault code could have multiple causes. I have spent thousands of pounds and 10 years to get where I am and I don't know everything by any means. Generic EOBD readers have limited user really as they will only pick up EOBD codes, many manufactures are using specific codes these days and these will only be displayed by a specialist tool, because of this most indipendant garages are either specializing in one brand or are only doing basic diagnostic. If in doubt take it to a professional, i have seen vehicles have hundreds of pounds worth of parts thrown at them just because people assume the code reader will just tell them whats causing the fault.

Matt


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## [email protected] (8 Mar 2017)

what I find with google is if you search a fault code you will invariably find threads on car forums which discuss the code and it becomes clear just how much you can reply on that fault code to be specific to a certain fault. VAG.COM by all accounts is excellent around £300 i think. OR a cheapo lead off Ebay and a pirate disc for a tenner and you can still sometimes get some access - worked once for me on a VAG then gave up


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## undergroundhunter (8 Mar 2017)

[email protected]":zpf6o6lm said:


> what I find with google is if you search a fault code you will invariably find threads on car forums which discuss the code and it becomes clear just how much you can reply on that fault code to be specific to a certain fault. VAG.COM by all accounts is excellent around £300 i think. OR a cheapo lead off Ebay and a pirate disc for a tenner and you can still sometimes get some access - worked once for me on a VAG then gave up




Here is an excellent example, I had a polo in the other day with a MAP sensor fault, the little old ladies local garage had replaced the MAP sensor and it still had a fault, brought it in to us (main dealer) within 5 mins I had diagnosed a wiring fault and an hour later had found the broken wire and fixed the fault. The first garage charged £150 inc diag for their "repair", we charged £100 and we fixed it first time with no parts needed. The garage it had been to had a £6000 snap on scanner that gave him all the same information I had except I used my training and knowledge to make an accurate diagnosis. If you google the code it came up with internal MAP sensor faults and a replacement fixes the fault, but not in this case. My point is accurate diagnosis is nearly always cheaper than guessing which is ultimately what googling the fault code is.


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## DiscoStu (8 Mar 2017)

I have an IID tool which is a fabulous bit of kit but it's really aimed at land rovers. It can work with all of the cars ecu's and not just the engine. Plus you can enable and disable functions and read various live values. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fishe_17 (16 May 2022)

LancsRick said:


> You can get an OBD2 scanner for under a tenner that will link up to your smartphone. I've used it on mine a couple of times with the same result as the offering in the garage.


second this!


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## Ollie78 (16 May 2022)

I have one that will tell me basic stuff on my smartphone but it is pretty simple. For my imported nissan I bought Nissan data scan and a wire which was certainly worthwhile and is extremely comprehensive.
When I had a golf I got vagcomm lite which was useful. 
I would say get something specific to your car / brand if you can.

Worth it even if you check it before taking it to a garage.

Ollie


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## guineafowl21 (16 May 2022)

fishe_17 said:


> second this!


Firstly, holy thread revival, Batman!

A basic ELM27 type/smartphone OBD scanner will tell you generic, generally emissions-related faults in the engine.

A garage-level/manufacturer specific scanner will talk to all the ECUs in detail, give live data and even be able to activate functions for diagnostics. A totally different beast, and costing orders of magnitude more.

For things like JLR vehicles you can get aftermarket compromise scanners, like the Lynx, iCarsoft or GapIID which have in-between capabilities, and can be extremely useful. These would be the best compromise if you can get a version for your vehicle.


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## Spectric (16 May 2022)

Vehicle diagnostic scanners do not come cheap, but also you have to pay for updates on a regular basis so unless you are a garage and can make it pay then just not worth the outlay. Our local garage uses one that set him back nearly 10K and it is only as good as the user and what data the vehicle can provide. There is another system on the market, a local auto electrician rates it and this uses an interface module with your own laptop and it is a pay to use system so I think you pay by the hour which may be another option. Recently when my Peugeot broke down, the RAC's diagnostics showed "internal BCI fault" but the guy said it may not be that module, it could be a connector and is something they see a lot of. Like so many tools, to get the best out of them the users experience and knowledge can play a vital role. 

Having worked in automotive / Agricultural electronics and back in the days when automotive were using RCON's it was so evident that complexity was causing many issues and it would get worse, a simple thing like a high impedance ground could show up as one of many faults in diagnostics and cost the user money with parts that were not required. Agricultural have got it right in that diagnostic's are built into the tractor, the onboard displays can be used to display information that can be used to diagnose a fault. 

As @undergroundhunter said, he had a broken wire, no diagnostic system is going to say " you have a broken MAP sensor wire" it can only inform you that the MAP sensor signal is at fault, down to you to find out why.


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## Pedronicus (16 May 2022)

I would think that there is nothing a dealer or mechanic would like better than a customer rocking up with a load of codes from his reader and then insisting that the relevant parts be changed 'cos Google says so! 

This used to happen to me when I was working as people would treat info gained from t'internet for faults on their heating systems as gospel and told me which parts to change and how much I should charge them. I tried to help them out but, with some, I had to advise a caveat that "You told me what to change so if it doesn't fix the problem I still want paying!"


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## Jameshow (16 May 2022)

[email protected] said:


> I bought one couple of yrs ago, paid £250 for it. I like to do my own repairs to vehicles and its been invaluable. Best bit is it gives live data (with engine running or driving) which gives info relating to fuel trims etc. Be aware that fault codes should not be taken literally but they do give a good clue. An experienced use (not me!) will usually tell from a fault code what the problem most likely is. Myself, I google the fault code and go from there..


Which one???


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## sammy.se (16 May 2022)

5 year old thread, but that's OK.  
For my VW and Audi, I bought OBDeleven. £80 all in and allows me to re-code like VAG.COM
brilliant kit, *BUT*, it only works when you have data/wifi, otherwise it's a useless lump.


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## Spectric (16 May 2022)

How many people have actually seen either the strategy or calibration file for a modern engine, the number of parameters is mind boggling and with so many interactions you can understand why some faults become masked by others.


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## Fergie 307 (17 May 2022)

undergroundhunter said:


> Here is an excellent example, I had a polo in the other day with a MAP sensor fault, the little old ladies local garage had replaced the MAP sensor and it still had a fault, brought it in to us (main dealer) within 5 mins I had diagnosed a wiring fault and an hour later had found the broken wire and fixed the fault. The first garage charged £150 inc diag for their "repair", we charged £100 and we fixed it first time with no parts needed. The garage it had been to had a £6000 snap on scanner that gave him all the same information I had except I used my training and knowledge to make an accurate diagnosis. If you google the code it came up with internal MAP sensor faults and a replacement fixes the fault, but not in this case. My point is accurate diagnosis is nearly always cheaper than guessing which is ultimately what googling the fault code is.


This is such good advice. All the scanner can tell you is that it isn't getting the expected reading from the particular component. It absolutely cannot tell you why. All too often Garages just change the "faulty" part, only to find the problem is still there, often because the reading is actually down to a wiring fault. This could be a broken wire, a bad connector, bad earth all kinds of things. So the reader is a good tool to tell you where to look, but don't take what it says as gospel.


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## Fergie 307 (17 May 2022)

I have an icarsoft unit for mercedes, very good. Have various others bought over the years for different makes. You are going to have to shell out around £150 or so for a decent make specific one. The cheap universal ones are ok for basic stuff, but won't read a lot of manufacturer specific codes. Never used the app type ones so can't comment on them.


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## Keith 66 (17 May 2022)

About 20 years ago we used a mechanic, same guy we had used for years. Had a problem with a car, engine magement system problem, Back & forth to mechanic, sensors changed couldnt sort it.
In the end went to another guy we know, He plugged his new machine into the car & found the obscure problem quickly,
As he said "No offence but XXXX wouldnt have found it" "Why's that?" i replied, "Cos i sold him my old diagnostic machine, its obsolete".
90% of his work is obscure electrical faults on older vehicles, & the equipment & diagnostic tools he has to keep up with the times is huge. And it doesnt stand still its a constant upgrade process or you get left behind.


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## mcgranag (17 May 2022)

I use this for my 2011 W212 E 200cdi. Its well made, easy to use, has a good reviews, both online and from a knowledgeable mate who has loaded several manufacturers software onto his. It takes a lot of the guesswork out when a dash light comes on.

FOXWELL NT510 Elite Full System OBD2 Scanner. Heres a link to adverts.ie for your information. 
link to Irish advert site


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## Dibs-h (17 May 2022)

I've had VCDS (RossTech) for 10+ years and for the 2 cars (A4 & Polo) we run it's been invaluable, paid for itself at least several times over.

Most recently the airbag light came on (and stayed on) in my 20yr old A4. Plugged it in and it said the front driver's side crash sensor had no signal. Quick removal - clean of the contacts in the plug and voila, all working.

*Edit*: If you own a VAG brand car (VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat - right up to the current cars) and the dashboard lights up and you want it plugging in and details of the faults - drop me a PM. [No charge.  ]


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## Fergie 307 (17 May 2022)

mcgranag said:


> I use this for my 2011 W212 E 200cdi. Its well made, easy to use, has a good reviews, both online and from a knowledgeable mate who has loaded several manufacturers software onto his. It takes a lot of the guesswork out when a dash light comes on.
> 
> FOXWELL NT510 Elite Full System OBD2 Scanner. Heres a link to adverts.ie for your information.
> link to Irish advert site


That's a really good point, it will save you a lot over time of you get one that can have various software packs installed for different manufacturers, and free updates is really good too. That's why it's well worth paying a bit more.
can save you money on day one. My Jeep is pre OBDII, and uses their own DRB system. The only dealer I could find who still had this old kit wanted £100 just to plug it in! I ended up buying a second hand unit from a guy in Texas for $150 including shipping came with all the various accessories in a fitted box, has saved me a bomb over the years.


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## Superduner (18 May 2022)

I'm being inundated with adverts for the Carly system at the moment after looking at their website. Edd China (he of Wheeler Dealers fame) rates it highly. They seem to have a subscription pricing system which is updated regularly.


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## TomTheToolMan (18 May 2022)

Watch "diagnose dan" on YouTube. You will be hooked.


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## Superduner (18 May 2022)

Just had a quick look at DiagnoseDan. Looks as if I have a solid day of YouTube binge watching coming up soon.


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## pe2dave (18 May 2022)

Now I'm impressed. I thought 'fixing' a car meant oily hands etc.
From above, this review I found to be quite an eye opener.
Simpler question. I have my car serviced at a garage. Is it
worth it? To check what they've done? 
Your view?


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## Dibs-h (18 May 2022)

pe2dave said:


> Now I'm impressed. I thought 'fixing' a car meant oily hands etc.
> From above, this review I found to be quite an eye opener.
> Simpler question. I have my car serviced at a garage. Is it
> worth it? To check what they've done?
> Your view?


The VCDS system is the closest to the factory ODIS system as you will get, as the guy says in his review and I've found it invaluable. Earlier this year - it diagnosed the timing on the wife's 1.2 Polo was off (EML came on & stayed on).

Stretched\slipped timing chain - which I replaced without any real bother.

"Fixing" cars does mean oily\grubby hands - don't think that will ever change. 

Having something like VCDS - I'm not sure it would help you verify\confirm what a garage has done tho. Extreme example - if it went in for an oil\filter service, they could easily not do it and just simply reset the "service clock" and you could think it was done.


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## Spectric (18 May 2022)

Dibs-h said:


> "Fixing" cars does mean oily\grubby hands - don't think that will ever change.


But the days of the car mechanic are past, now it is computer based diagnostics and replacing parts. The days when you would change the brushes in a wiper motor or undertake a full rebuild of the engine are gone. Perhaps this is because a modern car has a much shorter lifespan, but what is better for the planet, a car that is more polluting but can give twenty five years on the road or something much cleaner but only last ten. It is actually worse because during those years the newer cars require parts replacing that would have lasted much longer on the older cars, they are just made to look like quality but without any and this was described as perceived quality by the OEM's.


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## Dibs-h (18 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> But the days of the car mechanic are past, now it is computer based diagnostics and replacing parts. The days when you would change the brushes in a wiper motor or undertake a full rebuild of the engine are gone.



Most dealerships\brands that I've familiar with (and it's a short list admittedly - BMW & VAG) have never rebuilt engines - they always fitted short or long blocks.

Replace Parts - I'm in full agreement with you on that. I was speaking to a guy in London when dealing with the engine failure of a mate's 535d a few years ago - and he said something I'll never forget (and I think it's largely true): "Master Tech's are just good for changing oil and parts."


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## Spectric (18 May 2022)

Main dealers cannot afford to spend time rebuilding engines for customers, just not profitable work and they tend to see the vehicles in their younger days and in warranty. Going back engine rebuilds were common, most garages would have an engine laid out needing rebore or a cylinder head off for a decoke and was something that was normal. There was many places that would undertake crank regrinding, head skimming and cylinder reboring, the one I used was Star engineering in Chelmsford who did work for me on vehicles like Hillman Imps, Vauxhall Magnums & Ventoras as well as motorcycles like Ariel square fours.


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## MikeK (18 May 2022)

In 1998, I bought a 1991 525i (E34) from the original owner with 54K km on the clock and a full service history (or so I thought). In late 2001, I was driving home from south of Munich when the car went into limp home mode with a transmission error. I learned that if I shut down and waited five minutes, I could drive another hour before the computer put the car in limp home mode. This was not a fun 6-hour trip.

I took the car to the BMW dealer in Darmstadt, and they confirmed there was a problem with the transmission. My only option from the dealer (or any dealer) was to replace the transmission. If I wanted a factory new transmission, the cost, including labor, would be about DM 10,000 (Germany had not converted to the Euro then). If I wanted a remanufactured transmission, the cost would be about DM 6,000. When I asked why they couldn't repair the transmission, the answer was "we don't do that, we repair by replacing." I then asked where the remanufactured transmissions come from, since this implies someone is capable of repairing them. The service manager didn't know since all of the transmissions are sent to a BMW depot, but he knew there were only four or five shops in Germany that rebuilt the transmissions for BMW.

I had a second car, so while I decided whether to dump more money into the BMW or cut my losses and scrap it, I saw an advert in the German paper for automatic transmission repair in Heidelberg. I spoke with the owner and he confirmed that he might be able to repair my transmission, depending on the fault. If he couldn't rebuild it, he would replace it with a rebuilt transmission he had in stock. Either way, the maximum cost for parts and labor would be DM 1,650. This confused me, so I told him about my conversation with the dealer and asked how he could do the work at a lower price. He told me he was one of the shops BMW uses to rebuild the transmissions.

I dropped the car off at the shop in Heidelberg and waited. Two days later, I received a call that the car was ready and my cost was DM 150. The mechanic researched the service history and discovered a factory recall for the transmission that was related to the fault and the original owner apparently ignored. BMW honored the recall and I received a rebuilt transmission for the cost of fluid and shop materials and a two-year warranty on the transmission. I drove the car for another 12 years without any problems before giving it to a Soldier.


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## pe2dave (18 May 2022)

MikeK said:


> In 1998, I bought a 1991 525i (E34) from the original owner with 54K km on the clock and a full service history (or so I thought). In late 2001, I was driving home from south of Munich when the car went into limp home mode with a transmission error.


...


MikeK said:


> I dropped the car off at the shop in Heidelberg and waited. Two days later, I received a call that the car was ready and my cost was DM 150. The mechanic researched the service history and discovered a factory recall for the transmission that was related to the fault and the original owner apparently ignored. BMW honored the recall and I received a rebuilt transmission for the cost of fluid and shop materials and a two-year warranty on the transmission. I drove the car for another 12 years without any problems before giving it to a Soldier.


Yep, tallies with many garage stories! 
It does make me wonder what a mechanics training / apprenticeship contains today.
How to exchange major pieces of a car?


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## Spectric (18 May 2022)

pe2dave said:


> It does make me wonder what a mechanics training / apprenticeship contains today.


I would say it is parts recognition, the days of having a good understanding of how things work and being able to use diagnostic machines like the old sun tuners are long gone. These machines would display information, graphs of secondary coil voltages and primary coil current but it was the mechanic who had to interpret this information and put things right, now they expect a computer to tell them what is wrong. Part swapping was another method, a good example of this was when a workshop manager decided that a car had a module failure so swap it with another one to prove. No it is not the module as it did not fix, but maybe that module is not exactly right for that model so lets try another. End result was three motors all not running.


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## pe2dave (18 May 2022)

Symptoms verses diagnostic skills? Former easier, latter takes time....


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## Dibs-h (18 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Part swapping was another method, a good example of this was when a workshop manager decided that a car had a module failure so swap it with another one to prove. No it is not the module as it did not fix, but maybe that module is not exactly right for that model so lets try another. End result was three motors all not running.



With more and more manufactures implementing or having implemented Component Protection - swapping (some) modules over isn't feasible or as feasible.


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## MikeK (18 May 2022)

pe2dave said:


> It does make me wonder what a mechanics training / apprenticeship contains today.
> How to exchange major pieces of a car?



I think so. As Roy stated above, the dealer garages don't want to put time and effort into rebuilding when replacing is faster. Our neighbor's 17-year old son is starting his Ausbildung (German apprenticeship training) as an auto mechanic. The classroom portion is mostly theory and diagnosis, while the practical portion is mostly routine servicing (oil, brakes, etc.) and hands-on training with the diagnosis equipment. There is a separate Ausbildung program for those who want to work on automobile manufacturing lines.

On a related story, my wife's 2020 Mustang Cabrio (European spec convertible) started making strange noises from the rear differential in mid 2021. Since the car was still in the factory warranty, we took it back to the dealer. The mechanic diagnosed a probable fault with the clutch pack in the differential, but the Ford HQ in Köln direction was to replace the entire differential and not rebuild or repair it. A complete differential is not a normal dealer stock option, so they had to order one from the States. Unfortunately for us, mid-2021 was not a good time to wait for factory parts from the States. Almost ten weeks later, the car was ready for us to pick up. During that time, the dealer gave us a loaner Focus at no cost, but it wasn't the same as her convertible. A few days later, I noticed oil spots on our garage floor in the area below the differential. Back to the shop for another two weeks and a Focus loaner while they replaced the input seal.

We haven't had any problems with the car since, but I later learned the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey would say. At about the eight-week point during the first job, the dealer got tired of waiting for Ford USA to ship a European-spec rear differential and received permission from Ford HQ to take the car to a specialty shop west of Frankfurt that worked on only drive trains. The shop replaced every component in the differential, including the axles and wheel bearings. Apparently, they damaged the input seal while installing the drive shaft and the fault wasn't obvious until my wife put a few hundred kilometers on it. The dealer took the car back to the specialty shop since they warranted the work for two years.


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## Smithy (18 May 2022)

I had a problem with my abs light on Peugeot 206. Changed all sensors with no luck. Bought a cheap OBD scanner which showed nothing. In the end the local garage sorted it for me. It was a dirty plug. I have since learnt that for Peugoet and Citroën you need a Peugeot Planet or something that can interact with it.


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## Dibs-h (18 May 2022)

Smithy said:


> I had a problem with my abs light on Peugeot 206. Changed all sensors with no luck. Bought a cheap OBD scanner which showed nothing. In the end the local garage sorted it for me. It was a dirty plug. I have since learnt that for Peugoet and Citroën you need a Peugeot Planet or something that can interact with it.


I've got the same at the moment with an old A4 - ABS light stays on for days and then won't see it for months. Bit like some demented bus schedule.

It's the plug behind the rear seat corner - just when I feel like dealing with it, the light goes away and stays away for months. LOL


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## Spectric (18 May 2022)

Makes me think back to when I was working through my C&G's in automotive engineering, we were shown how to remove and rebuild differentials and more importantly how to use engineers blue to setup the correct meshing of the teeth, there were more RWD cars around than FWD and axle problems were not uncommon. It was the French who started the FWD invasion because there logic was a horse pulls a cart, it does not push it, at the time the most common FWD car was the real mini and now with the diff being part of the gearbox assembly it is a replacement part. So much of what I have learnt over the years will become obsolete as we move onto EV's but luckily I am semi retired and got out of working on cars many many years ago in favour of electrical/electronic systems. Another important skill for the garage was welding, many cars would need welding for the MOT and replacing outer sills and suspension top plates was common, don't hear of that much welding going on these days and how often does your car fail MOT's needing welding.


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## Spectric (18 May 2022)

MikeK said:


> and they confirmed there was a problem with the transmission.


I assume it was an auto, they can be a really expensive nightmare on newer cars and so I avoid.


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## Terry - Somerset (18 May 2022)

That cars have changed radically since I started driving and fixing them 50 years ago is no surprise.

A 1970s car would often need a service every 3-5k, a decoke every 10-30k, replacement engine by 50-80k, etc. Suspension and steering replacement was commonplace on cars over 5 years old, as was welding on cars more than 6-8 years old. 

For motoring to be affordable to a teenager they needed to be capable of diagnosis and repair - often using components from a breakers yard.

Cars now are far more reliable, far better equipped, much faster, more economical etc etc. They have morphed into white goods and consumer durables with wheels.

The completely unacceptable bit is that code readers are still required. It is entirely feasible to hold all fault codes, manuals, part numbers, repair/replacement instructions etc on an embedded chip, displayed on a laptop/tablet via blue tooth, USB cable or on the screen already installed in the vehicle.


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## Spectric (18 May 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The completely unacceptable bit is that code readers are still required. It is entirely feasible to hold all fault codes, manuals, part numbers, repair/replacement instructions etc on an embedded chip, displayed on a laptop/tablet via blue tooth, USB cable or on the screen already installed in the vehicle.


Yes this is very feasable and would not be difficult to do for an OEM, the problem is that it would take work away from the main dealers and this side of their business is very profitable, essentially the OEM has to keep the dealer sweet because they are trying to sell their cars. Also there is a lot of money to be made in diagnostic equipment and preventing people from repairing their own cars, better to force them into garages and the main dealers.

Tractors and agricultural vehicles do use their screens to display diagnostic's and I believe now that the dealer can access data via GSM so that they can bring relevant parts out to fix the vehicle. Cars are luxury items that are seen as a money making industry and car owners do get the shieety end of the stick, all the data required to help diagnose a problem is already within the modules, all they need to do is put a user interface on the system and owners now have access but I cannot see that happening. One story that has been used is in preventing interference with security systems and theft of component parts but just an excuse, there is no reason not to provide the owner with diagnostic data and maybe the question that should be asked is who owns this data, it is your car and therefore should you not also own the data needed to look after your asset?


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## artie (18 May 2022)

I had a severe case of heartburn with a BMW X3 a few years ago which finally developed a fault that no one could fix so had to be dumped.

One thing I found out during that sage, was, that the gadget may show 82 faults, but if you mechanic is savvy enough to fix the right one first the rest go away.


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## Fergie 307 (19 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Main dealers cannot afford to spend time rebuilding engines for customers, just not profitable work and they tend to see the vehicles in their younger days and in warranty. Going back engine rebuilds were common, most garages would have an engine laid out needing rebore or a cylinder head off for a decoke and was something that was normal. There was many places that would undertake crank regrinding, head skimming and cylinder reboring, the one I used was Star engineering in Chelmsford who did work for me on vehicles like Hillman Imps, Vauxhall Magnums & Ventoras as well as motorcycles like Ariel square fours.


In the 50's your car would need a decoke maybe every 20k miles, now really not an issue. Much better fuel and oil quality, much better fuel metering with injection. Back in the 70's if you bought a new Ford Escort, Morris Marina or whatever you knew full well that the engine would be knackered by the time it had done 70-80k miles. So there were loads of engine rebuilders. Not so anymore. Most modern cars will easily do well over twice that, down to better manufacturing quality, better lubricants and so forth. What will probably eventually kill most modern cars is an electronic fault which either cannot be repaired, often because the parts are completely sealed and cannot be dismantled, or because the manufacturer no longer supplies spares and second-hand units are no longer about either. I am absolutely in agreement with you that we need to get out of this habit of always wanting new stuff with more and more gadgets, many of which serve little real purpose, and are just more things to go wrong. Already you see many perfectly serviceable cars going for dismantling because of some really stupid electrical issue that costs more that the value of the car to repair. This is only going to get worse.


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## Fergie 307 (19 May 2022)

Smithy said:


> I had a problem with my abs light on Peugeot 206. Changed all sensors with no luck. Bought a cheap OBD scanner which showed nothing. In the end the local garage sorted it for me. It was a dirty plug. I have since learnt that for Peugoet and Citroën you need a Peugeot Planet or something that can interact with it.


I used to live French cars, still do the old ones. Best thing to do with a modern one is sell it before it goes wrong, the electronics on them are dreadful.


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## croft36 (19 May 2022)

undergroundhunter said:


> Here is an excellent example, I had a polo in the other day with a MAP sensor fault, the little old ladies local garage had replaced the MAP sensor and it still had a fault, brought it in to us (main dealer) within 5 mins I had diagnosed a wiring fault and an hour later had found the broken wire and fixed the fault. The first garage charged £150 inc diag for their "repair", we charged £100 and we fixed it first time with no parts needed. The garage it had been to had a £6000 snap on scanner that gave him all the same information I had except I used my training and knowledge to make an accurate diagnosis. If you google the code it came up with internal MAP sensor faults and a replacement fixes the fault, but not in this case. My point is accurate diagnosis is nearly always cheaper than guessing which is ultimately what googling the fault code is.


With respect you had the advantage of knowing that it had already been established that it wasn’t the MAP sensor at fault. A lot of main dealers would no doubt have also initially replaced the MAP sensor!?


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## Dibs-h (19 May 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The completely unacceptable bit is that code readers are still required. It is entirely feasible to hold all fault codes, manuals, part numbers, repair/replacement instructions etc on an embedded chip, displayed on a laptop/tablet via blue tooth, USB cable or on the screen already installed in the vehicle.


You should see the Mercedes system - it needs a shoebox sized item in between the laptop and the car (a multiplexer they call it) and not cheap even for the Chinese clones.

I like the VAG system. ODIS (the diagnostic interface\system) when used with ELSA (the repair system) is impressive. You click on a fault code and ELSA opens up, giving instructions (diagrams\text\locations) on what to check, bolt\screw locations, torque settings, voltages, wiring, etc.)

Even ELSA with VCDS is good too.

In all fairness the MB Star system does too, but it ain't cheap.


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## Dibs-h (19 May 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> In the 50's your car would need a decoke maybe every 20k miles, now really not an issue. Much better fuel and oil quality, much better fuel metering with injection. Back in the 70's if you bought a new Ford Escort, Morris Marina or whatever you knew full well that the engine would be knackered by the time it had done 70-80k miles. So there were loads of engine rebuilders. Not so anymore. Most modern cars will easily do well over twice that, down to better manufacturing quality, better lubricants and so forth. What will probably eventually kill most modern cars is an electronic fault which either cannot be repaired, often because the parts are completely sealed and cannot be dismantled, or because the manufacturer no longer supplies spares and second-hand units are no longer about either. I am absolutely in agreement with you that we need to get out of this habit of always wanting new stuff with more and more gadgets, many of which serve little real purpose, and are just more things to go wrong. Already you see many perfectly serviceable cars going for dismantling because of some really stupid electrical issue that costs more that the value of the car to repair. This is only going to get worse.



You just reminded me of my 1st car - a Mk1 Golf (non-GTI). Of using a dwell meter to set the points.


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## guineafowl21 (19 May 2022)

ICarsoft LR2.0 - very useful gadget, but died after two years and perhaps 15 uses. Inside was a decent ARM processor, all power rails working, but otherwise absolutely dead.

Hoping this was just unlucky, I just bought a 3.0 version, which was faulty out of the box.

Hence I wouldn’t recommend an iCarsoft product. I’ve gone for a Foxwell this time.


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## Spectric (19 May 2022)

What really makes all this so obnoxious is the fact that it is so obvious that it is all aimed at milking the customer, nothing other than a money making exercise for which there are better engineering solutions. I would also go as far to say that a lot of this complexity is for no other reason than to prevent the owner undertaking even basic repairs, does a Peugeot 308 really need more fuses than a Leyland National bus!


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## Dibs-h (19 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> What really makes all this so obnoxious is the fact that it is so obvious that it is all aimed at milking the customer, nothing other than a money making exercise for which there are better engineering solutions. I would also go as far to say that a lot of this complexity is for no other reason than to prevent the owner undertaking even basic repairs, does a Peugeot 308 really need more fuses than a Leyland National bus!


Don't get me started - it's like the fiasco with BMW putting engine timing chains at the back of the block between the engine and the gearbox - just so they can "improve the aero-dynamics" by having space to slope the bonnet further.

"Sealed for life chains?" - my backside. You'd be lucky to get change out of 3.5K for a timing chain change, assuming it didn't go bang first.


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## Spectric (19 May 2022)

Dibs-h said:


> it's like the fiasco with BMW putting engine timing chains at the back of the block between the engine and the gearbox


That sounds really stupid, I suppose some engineer wanted to be different and came up with that. I suppose we do get strange designs now and then, the French used to put the engine / gearbox in backwards in some models so the gearbox was at the front near the radiator. Timing chains were once bombproof, just look at the Jaguar XK straight six and what a classic engine. Why would the BMW chains need to be sealed for life, don't they run within the engine casings in oil like chains once used to? Saying that it used to be belt failures that were a problem but now you do hear more chain / tensioner failures and why, even many of the old push rod engines used a chain to drive the block mounted camshaft. This has to be a sign of either deliberate cost cutting or engineering incompetance, what has happened to experience and durability testing before product launch.


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## Terry - Somerset (19 May 2022)

The public - you and I generally - are complicit in the exploitative strategies used by car companies.

They have sold us the idea of, and mostly we have willingly bought, complex gizmos which do close to nothing to improve the functionality of motor vehicles.

These include generally unusable performance, sport modes, racetrack modes, economy modes, power seats, internal ambient lighting, auto wipers, auto lights, integrated media systems, etc. None of this is critical in transporting homo-sapiens from A to B efficiently in reasonable comfort.

We have only ourselves to blame. We should have bought the base model. Instead we chose the one equipped with configurable steering wheels, optional altitude sensors, leather upholstery crafted from the skin of dolphins, ecologically sound wood trim, and additive free air suspension.

They then tell us we need £000s of sophisticated technical kit to tell use what is wrong with our sophisticated complex car. We are idiots and deserve to be exploited!


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## Dibs-h (19 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Why would the BMW chains need to be sealed for life, don't they run within the engine casings in oil like chains once used to?


They do all run within the casings in oil. Sorry, by "sealed for life" - I meant that's their BS for "doesn't ever need changing".


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## Spectric (19 May 2022)

Just watched a video on changing the chains on an N47 BMW engine, what a complete design failure from start to finish. Remove engine, remove flywheel and sump then a casing just to access these chains and some nasty plastic guides. Running in oil so why do they fail, could it be that it is just a single little chain and not a duplex that was once so common! BMW, VW and Mercedes engineering has gone down hill big time, have they sacrificed their once proud names for the sake of survival amongst the competition.


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## Keith 66 (19 May 2022)

Car companies build cars to make money, they are in the business of shifting products, lots of them, the customers convenience in fixing it when it goes wrong is barely a consideration, any way to make the product faster & cheaper to build will be used. The white goods analogy is perfect, they build washing machines to wear out so they can sell you new ones, Cars are the same.


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## Fergie 307 (19 May 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The public - you and I generally - are complicit in the exploitative strategies used by car companies.
> 
> They have sold us the idea of, and mostly we have willingly bought, complex gizmos which do close to nothing to improve the functionality of motor vehicles.
> 
> ...


it is such a shame that no one really makes a basic car anymore, a modern equivalent of the 2CV for example, with the bare minimum of electronics to control the engine and useful stuff like ABS and airbags. No mood lighting, no blooming electric handbrake or the plethora of other gadgetry that we can apparently no longer do without.


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## okeydokey (20 May 2022)

Ah 2CV
Happy days


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## loc0 (20 May 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> Car companies build cars to make money, they are in the business of shifting products, lots of them, the customers convenience in fixing it when it goes wrong is barely a consideration, any way to make the product faster & cheaper to build will be used. The white goods analogy is perfect, they build washing machines to wear out so they can sell you new ones, Cars are the same.


Very true. Recently my partner had to leave her Audi A3 due to some ongoing issues. Fortunately, her new mechanic is ex VW group employee specialising in Audi. He told us that new cars coming from VW Group are built to last 7 years (not sure if that applies to the premium sector aka Porshe, Bentley, Lambo). How their accountants come with that number I do not know, but new cars are plagued with problems related to electronics. Again quote from him: most components used in modern cars are basically borrowed from a home pc/ laptop systems that are designed to work in stable conditions and will fail on the road at some point.
Mercedes is being sued by its customers that bought new S Class and can't enjoy 100 000+£ cars because of constant problems.


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## Terry - Somerset (20 May 2022)

The priority of car manufacturers is keeping 1st owners happy. Keeping 2nd owners happy increases the trade in price the 1st owners enjoy, and 2nd owners may one day be new car buyers. Thereafter their motivation to provide long lasting vehicles declines.

The origin of the phrase planned obsolescence goes back at least as far as 1932 with *Bernard London's pamphlet Ending the Depression Through Planned Obsolescence*. The essence of London's plan would have the government impose a legal obsolescence on personal-use items, to stimulate and perpetuate purchasing.

Car manufacturers have enthusiastically adopted the philosophy. 

It costs money to build cars which last longer - better materials, design, finer tolerances, more quality control etc. The 1st owner choice would be skewed towards that which is cheaper (but outlast their ownership) rather than that which will be reliably motoring in 20 years time!


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## Spectric (20 May 2022)

Keith 66 said:


> Car companies build cars to make money, they are in the business of shifting products, lots of them, the customers convenience in fixing it when it goes wrong is barely a consideration,


It is not even a consideration, when I was involved with automotive engineering we were told that we design for manufacture and not repair, this meant some good engineering practices were ignored. So providing the line operator could fit component x without problems then it did not mater if later on someone would need to remove the entire powertrain to replace component x when it failed so you get huge labour cost to replace something that cost a few dollars.


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## Dibs-h (20 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Just watched a video on changing the chains on an N47 BMW engine, what a complete design failure from start to finish. Remove engine, remove flywheel and sump then a casing just to access these chains and some nasty plastic guides. Running in oil so why do they fail, could it be that it is just a single little chain and not a duplex that was once so common!


Historically (in the 80's & 90's) on some engines, BMW used double chains, plastic guides and oil fed tensioners - a very reliable system on the whole. The big difference was all of it was on the front of the block, so changing it wasn't the debacle and expense it is now.


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## Spectric (20 May 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The priority of car manufacturers is keeping 1st owners happy. Keeping 2nd owners happy increases the trade in price the 1st owners enjoy,


The first owner providing they only keep the vehicle whilst in warranty should have no major issues, the OEM design or at least try to, to ensure minimal warranty work because that is something that cost them. The next owner is taking a higher risk, the OEM has made their money and that car no longer exist once it is in the second hand car market, now it is the turn of the motor trade and garages to make their money and the OEM might make some money on parts but it is the owner who forks out everytime. Now once getting towards fifteen years old they become a high risk but unless you buy new then they have got you, most warranties offered are worthless unless the car fails badly within weeks of purchase. We are already seeing expensive high end motors that become worthless because the cost of repair exceeds their market value, it will be the more basic and less refined motors that may hold their value. 

So where does the word sustainable, resource or enviromentally freindly come into this equation. The modern car is nothing more than whitegoods on wheels, just a throwaway commodity that consumes vast amounts of material and energy to build yet even if the engine is zero emisions it will have contributed during it's short life and therefore maybe the older cars that were more polluting were better for the enviroment due to longer lifecycles.


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## Spectric (20 May 2022)

Dibs-h said:


> The big difference was all of it was on the front of the block, so changing it wasn't the debacle and expense it is now.


Yes I do remember when German engineering was appreciated, is it not ironic that when timing chains were reliable that they were easily accessed yet now they are inherently unreliable that they are inaccessable without removing the engine, sounds like backward engineering because it is hardly new technology and with so many historic designs to learn from.


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## Jameshow (20 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> The first owner providing they only keep the vehicle whilst in warranty should have no major issues, the OEM design or at least try to, to ensure minimal warranty work because that is something that cost them. The next owner is taking a higher risk, the OEM has made their money and that car no longer exist once it is in the second hand car market, now it is the turn of the motor trade and garages to make their money and the OEM might make some money on parts but it is the owner who forks out everytime. Now once getting towards fifteen years old they become a high risk but unless you buy new then they have got you, most warranties offered are worthless unless the car fails badly within weeks of purchase. We are already seeing expensive high end motors that become worthless because the cost of repair exceeds their market value, it will be the more basic and less refined motors that may hold their value.
> 
> So where does the word sustainable, resource or enviromentally freindly come into this equation. The modern car is nothing more than whitegoods on wheels, just a throwaway commodity that consumes vast amounts of material and energy to build yet even if the engine is zero emisions it will have contributed during it's short life and therefore maybe the older cars that were more polluting were better for the enviroment due to longer lifecycles.



I don't like buying mid market tbh although I have 2 vans in that sector 12 and 15 plate as they are out of warranty, yet still valuable so risky if something goes wrong. 

My sons 02 polo on the other hand cost £500 is easy to fix and goes well.


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## Smithy (20 May 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I used to live French cars, still do the old ones. Best thing to do with a modern one is sell it before it goes wrong, the electronics on them are dreadful.


Yes a friend told me the same. I think modern cars are challenging for the diy mechanic. I will stick with this car. I know my way around it now and this is the first problem I have had with the electrics. I have a 1983 volvo 240 I hope to put back on the road. She is a delight to work on.


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## PhilipL (20 May 2022)

Blame the legal regime of the EU. Copyright in functional artefacts (software in cars) means you never get the required information to repair what you bought.


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## morqthana (20 May 2022)

jimmy_s said:


> I have an old VW Phaeton


Best second-hand car VW ever made.


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## morqthana (20 May 2022)

PhilipL said:


> Blame the legal regime of the EU. Copyright in functional artefacts (software in cars) means you never get the required information to repair what you bought.


Please explain how that theory explains why so many states in the USA are considering right-to-repair laws, and manufacturers are opposing them, and Biden recently directed the Federal Trade Commission to issue rules preventing manufacturers from imposing restrictions on independent device repair shops and DIY repairs.

You don't have some prejudiced bias agains the EU, do you?


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## PhilipL (20 May 2022)

morqthana said:


> Considering ease explain how that theory explains why so many states in the USA are considering right-to-repair laws, and manufacturers are opposing them, and Biden recently directed the Federal Trade Commission to issue rules preventing manufacturers from imposing restrictions on independent device repair shops and DIY repairs.
> 
> You don't have some prejudiced bias agains the EU, do you?


Considering right to repair is something the EU has been doing for years, but never implements. I was an academic interested in these matters and used to groan at the decisions which came out of the ECJ. I could see where it was all heading, even back in the 1980s. The US, of course, were there too mixing up artistic and functional aspects. 

And don't start me off on trademarks!


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## Fergie 307 (21 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> The first owner providing they only keep the vehicle whilst in warranty should have no major issues, the OEM design or at least try to, to ensure minimal warranty work because that is something that cost them. The next owner is taking a higher risk, the OEM has made their money and that car no longer exist once it is in the second hand car market, now it is the turn of the motor trade and garages to make their money and the OEM might make some money on parts but it is the owner who forks out everytime. Now once getting towards fifteen years old they become a high risk but unless you buy new then they have got you, most warranties offered are worthless unless the car fails badly within weeks of purchase. We are already seeing expensive high end motors that become worthless because the cost of repair exceeds their market value, it will be the more basic and less refined motors that may hold their value.
> 
> So where does the word sustainable, resource or enviromentally freindly come into this equation. The modern car is nothing more than whitegoods on wheels, just a throwaway commodity that consumes vast amounts of material and energy to build yet even if the engine is zero emisions it will have contributed during it's short life and therefore maybe the older cars that were more polluting were better for the enviroment due to longer lifecycle






Terry - Somerset said:


> The priority of car manufacturers is keeping 1st owners happy. Keeping 2nd owners happy increases the trade in price the 1st owners enjoy, and 2nd owners may one day be new car buyers. Thereafter their motivation to provide long lasting vehicles declines.
> 
> The origin of the phrase planned obsolescence goes back at least as far as 1932 with *Bernard London's pamphlet Ending the Depression Through Planned Obsolescence*. The essence of London's plan would have the government impose a legal obsolescence on personal-use items, to stimulate and perpetuate purchasing.
> 
> ...


It is interesting that some manufacturers do continue to supply parts way beyond any legal obligation. I can still get virtually any part for my 30+ year old Mercedes from the dealer, admittedly sometimes the prices can be a little eye watering. Saab and BMW used to do the same. Try asking a Ford dealer for many parts for even a ten year old car and they will just laugh at you. So when the manufacturer is no longer interested you have to either get a replacement from a dismantler, buy pattern stuff, or find one of the specialist suppliers who go around buying up NOS original parts from dealers and manufacturers.


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## selectortone (21 May 2022)

Ìf you want a reliable car buy Japanese. I found my daughter a 2004 Mazda 3 with 55k miles and a decent service history five years ago, for which she paid £1.9k. Lovely car, 1.6 petrol, fun to drive, quite peppy, good economy, ran like a sewing machine the entire time she had it.

She had it serviced annually, it sailed through every MOT, and she sold it with 88k miles on for £850 despite a deep scratch down the drivers side some anonymous moron left in it. She only sold it because she has a new job with a company car - a Kia e-Nero EV which I have to say is absolutely awesome, but that's another story.

Now, that's what I call a good car-owning experience. I'm having (touch wood) a similar experience with a Mazda 6, which is every bit as well appointed and nice to drive as my old 5-series BMW 525i. I also have 17-year old Mazda MX-5 and the engines on those are legendary for being bullet-proof.


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## Jameshow (21 May 2022)

morqthana said:


> Best second-hand car VW ever made.


You don't find there are so many electrical components to go wrong???


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## Spectric (21 May 2022)

I don't even think that the newer Japanese cars are what they once were, one of my first experiences with Japanese was a Datsun bluebird and one of the first things you noticed was that it did not drip oil on the driveway and it always started.


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## Dibs-h (21 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Yes I do remember when German engineering was appreciated, is it not ironic that when timing chains were reliable that they were easily accessed yet now they are inherently unreliable that they are inaccessable without removing the engine, sounds like backward engineering because it is hardly new technology and with so many historic designs to learn from.


TBF, I think they are as reliable as they used to be - just that they don't last for ever and do need changing. 

The issue is that some "designer" got his\her way and engineering probably were on the receiving end of a "JFDI" - resulting in the sprocket\chain end being put at the back so as to allow the front of the engine to sit lower, thereby allowing the bonnet to slope down further.

Having them at the front limits how low the front of the engine can go.

Sadly a case of "form" taking priority over "function (and reliability)".


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## Spectric (21 May 2022)

Dibs-h said:


> I think they are as reliable as they used to be - just that they don't last for ever


But they require parts replacing that would have lasted the life of the car years ago. I have worked on cars that required the engine to sit very low, not to get the bonnet to slope more but to get the CofG lower and our solution was to fit a dry sump lube system with a pace pump, maybe not ideal for a mass production road car but I cannot see any excuse for such bad engineering from BMW. Another example are motorcycles, on bikes like the CB750 and such, to change the chain meant dismantling the engine as it was driven from the centre of the crank and was an endless chain but the design was so good they lasted and were so easy to re-tension. I think that had this BMW engine been designed in the seventies then maybe they would have used gears.


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## Spectric (21 May 2022)

Had another thought on this, something that has changed is that designers now rely to heavily on computer modeling and CAD to the point gut feeling and past lessons get ignored. Any model is only as good as the data it is created from, there is still a lot that could be learnt from the way designs were handled many years ago but they required more engineers and time so in todays rush to the finish line you can see how mistakes are made. We would physically model sub systems and fit instruments such as torque meters and strain gauges to get an accurate picture of the potential design and be in a position to iron out any problems before pre production parts were made, now I believe they use mathematical models and a prayer.


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## morqthana (22 May 2022)

Jameshow said:


> You don't find there are so many electrical components to go wrong???


Sorry - it was a joke about the way the value of that car fell off a cliff as soon as it was driven out of the showroom - one of the best examples ever of why buying a used premium car can be such good VFM.

It probably does have lots of electrics to go wrong, like many luxury cars. I've never owned one (I did think about one for a while, as I quite fancied the V10 diesel), but as far as I know VAG are pretty good at making reliable products.


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## Spectric (22 May 2022)

morqthana said:


> but as far as I know VAG are pretty good at making reliable products.


were is a better description, but we should not lay all the blame on the OEM's because a lot of complexity has come from them having to meet the EURO emission standards.


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## J-G (22 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> were is a better description, but we should not lay all the blame on the OEM's because a lot of complexity has come from them having to meet the EURO emission standards.


Isn't it famously the case that they didn't 'meet' the standards - they circumvented them


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## Spectric (22 May 2022)

Yes that is a good point, those requirements could have been met but at the sacrifice of durability and that would have been more expensive in warranty so instead a bit of getting round them was introduced. That also sounds familiar with our government, these are the rules but will will get round them. It was not just VW either by all accounts and others may have got away with it completely.


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## Terry - Somerset (22 May 2022)

The optimal solution is to deliver a car to the first user, which operates faultlessly and generates no warranty claims. Generating sales needs performance, price, functionality, gizmos, economy, etc to differentiate it from the competition. No sales = no business.

Reliability and longevity cost - so most manufacturers limit specification to cover the first user and/or warranty period (mostly 3 - 7 years). Taxation and fuel economy are significant factors in purchase decisions - so expect these to be optimised within whatever rules are imposed.

The law of unintended consequences means that (frequently) some regulation is wrong - eg:

fuel economy and emissions testing regime
favouring taxation of fuel based on volume not energy value (diesel vs petrol)
crash testing favouring vehicles equipped with expensive electronics
mandating spares availability for only 10 years
no mandatory rules for warranty length
etc etc
However much some may regret that cars sold must be capable of 250k miles without major failures, with spares availability out to 30 years, it simply will not happen.

Nor should it - a new car today is much better than its predecessor 30 years ago - taken to a logical conclusion we would today be driving slower, poorly equipped, more polluting, less economical cars - albeit secure in the knowledge we could fix it at the roadside with available spares and a basic tool kit.


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## Jameshow (22 May 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The optimal solution is to deliver a car to the first user, which operates faultlessly and generates no warranty claims. Generating sales needs performance, price, functionality, gizmos, economy, etc to differentiate it from the competition. No sales = no business.
> 
> Reliability and longevity cost - so most manufacturers limit specification to cover the first user and/or warranty period (mostly 3 - 7 years). Taxation and fuel economy are significant factors in purchase decisions - so expect these to be optimised within whatever rules are imposed.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a Volvo 740/940 to me!


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## undergroundhunter (26 May 2022)

croft36 said:


> With respect you had the advantage of knowing that it had already been established that it wasn’t the MAP sensor at fault. A lot of main dealers would no doubt have also initially replaced the MAP sensor!?


I absolutely would not fit a part without first establishing if it had what it needed to function, in this case a 5v supply and a ground, which it did not. Anyone who fits a part without checking the basics is just an silly person.


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