# Fox 16" scrollsaw



## keithhickson (11 Sep 2007)

Hi I have the above machine, and had it for a week and I'm having a few problems setting it up  as it's not the one featured in the photocopy instructions or in the website photograph. Just Hobbies (the vendors) are doing their best to get hold of a proper instruction manual for me but I wondered if anyone had any experience with this saw? I'm sure a more experienced scroller (if you've cut a bit of wood on a scroll saw this means you :wink: ) would look at it, have a fiddle and it would be all right. I could go on, and on, and on, about the problems but won't unless required to.

Many thanks for any advice (other than humph I wouldn't have bought one of those if I were you laddie :lol: ) you can give.

Keith


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## StevieB (11 Sep 2007)

You are going to have to tell us a bit more about the problems you are having I am afraid! Pics would be helpful too if you can. With more info I am sure between us we can help you out.

Steve.


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## Brucio (12 Sep 2007)

Is this the one?





Found it on Ebay. No details given.
Bruce


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## keithhickson (12 Sep 2007)

Yes and no, I'll post some pictures this evening. The blade change system, as far as I can make out, entails undoing a 3" cross headed bolt on the left side, which allows you to swing the right side (as you look at it) cover open. The tensioning device, which is shown in the instructions as being on the "head" of the machine by the top blade holder, is at the back, but no instructions have been given as to how to SAFELY remove the blade. Also the machine has adaptors to hold plain ended blades in rather than clamps so all in all a bit of a nightmare for a pure novice such as I  
I have emailed Always Hobbies (not just hobbies my earlier error) and intend taking it back this Saturday. Also it seems the mini tool may be "on" all the time as there is no obvious separate switch for it, all of which in my mind render the saw as being not of merchantable quality and a health & safety nightmare :? 

So by Saturday arvo (hopefully) there will be a sawless wannabe scroll sawist in Hertfordshire on the look out for a quality "once loved" reliable scroll saw.

Pause whilst readers head for the attic/dark corners of workshops etc :wink:


An update just had an email from Always Hobbies and they are arranging collection of the saw. Great service from the vendor not so good from the manufacturer


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## Gill (12 Sep 2007)

This is sad . It's so difficult to find a good scroll saw for less than £200 nowadays. The SIP seems to be better than most in that price range and I know Bruce acquired one recently. Despite its little foibles, are you still happy with it, Bruce?

Gill


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## keithhickson (12 Sep 2007)

Thanks for the idea I'll have a look at the SIP. You gets what you pay for as has been said on other threads so I guess I'll be paying a bit more for far less hassle............... :lol:


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## keithhickson (12 Sep 2007)

Brucio I have searched the www and can only find the SIP 16" scroll saw which is under £100 is this the one you bought? 

It seems a good price and I can get a light for it as well!!!!! :wink:


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## Brucio (12 Sep 2007)

Hello Keith.
Yes, the SIP 16" scrollsaw-excellent!
I bought mine from Toolstation for £71 including postage!
It holds pinned and pinless blades by top and bottom v-clamps.
The tensioning clamp is on the top, at the back, and it's adjustable.
For lots of inside cuts: just flick the lever up-tension gone. Unhook the top of the blade, insert wood, hook blade back on, flick lever down-tension restored!
And it takes less time to do, than it took me to type that line...
The saw is very quiet, with no vibration at the slower speeds.
Strangely enough, it's easier to cut dead straight lines than the saw I had before (a Ferm).
I've just been cutting some real fretwork, and I think it's quite good.
I'm very happy with the SIP.
Bruce


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## keithhickson (12 Sep 2007)

Looks like it's the SIP then, cheers for the input :lol: 

Regards

Keith


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## keithhickson (12 Sep 2007)

Fox scroll saw 

The view from above






That darn bolt





The blade tensioner (with ne reference marks or hints)





The blade clamp (top)



[/img]

Yes I'm sorry the pictures aren't all that good, or straight but hopefully you get the point.

Again thanks guys n gals for the input =D> as soon as my refund clears to my card I'll be shopping for a SIP (probably use toolstation it's had good right ups) is it worth getting the optional light for it?


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## Brucio (12 Sep 2007)

Keith,
from your pictures, it looks like the blade clamps are the same as the Sip, but mine has a hex bolt instead of the blue knob, to tighten the clamp.
You only need to use this bolt (or knob) if you're using pinless blades.
Pinned blades just sit in the 'v' in the clamps, and don't need clamping in place. You can clamp the bottom of the blade if you want, to stop it dropping when you unhook the top.
The tension knob on the Sip is in the same place as yours, but it's also a lever, which you flip up to release the tension, and simply flip down to reset the same tension. It aslso turns, to adjust the tension to what you want. As you probably know, the direction a blade will cut, depends on the amount of tension it's under.
If you were keeping the Fox, I'd certainly get that cover off altogether!
But I don't know what I'd do about the tension knob.
Perhaps buy another saw?
Bruce


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## StevieB (12 Sep 2007)

Given you are sending the saw back its not really a problem any more  

If you were keeping it I would try and remove the plastic cover from the top arm (what is the black cable/pipe from the back of the saw next to the blue tension knob?). There is no problem with havig an exposed swing arm.

As to the tension, very few saws (in fact none I know of) have a tension scale. General recommendation is to 'ping' the blade until it makes a clean high note some say a C but I am not pitch perfect so couldn't confirm. So long as its under tension it will cut relatively straight - or at least consistently!

As to the bolt, if it seems difficult to fit the blade in situ, are the blocks supposed to come out to have the blade fitted then be dropped back in and the tension wound up again? Agree from your pic it seems a particularly bad design. Since quite alot of thought goes into the design process perhaps the manual is not very explicit on the correct way to fit the blade?

Steve.


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## Gill (12 Sep 2007)

The DW788 has a tension scale (ole clever clogs strikes again  ) - much use it is! Far better to tighten your blade until you've got about 1 or 2 mm of lateral movement. It's easy to tell if it's too tight because the blade will break. If it's too loose, either the blade will wander off the line of cut or it will be difficult to get _any _sort of cut. Sadly, experience counts for a lot when tensioning a blade.

Looking at the photo of the Fox saw, it seems as if the blade is held in its upper clamp by a thumbscrew - which is then obstructed by the upper arm cover! I quite agree with Bruce and Steve's interpretations of the photo - in fact, I'd go so far as to say this saw looks as if its been designed by people who've never seen the inside of a woodworkers workshop.

Gill


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## scroller frank (12 Sep 2007)

> in fact, I'd go so far as to say this saw looks as if its been designed by people who've never seen the inside of a woodworkers workshop.




I'll agree with you on that Gill, 
some of these things , i think , are designed by a health and safety man with little on no practical workshop experience or knowledge , 
makes me -- :x :x
----Frank---------


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## keithhickson (13 Sep 2007)

Many thanks for the comments based on my poor photography. Apologies for any misunderstanding, with regard to the blade tension I meant to say that the instructions do not refer to how much tension you should apply, the tensioning device on the instructions seems similar to that described for the SIP but is on top of the "head" not at the back just to add confusion.
The cover is metal, and apart from the hinged section seems to be a permanent fixture. 
The black pipe is either the air jet thingy or the mounted light.
The blade clamps are designed for pinned blades but the machine is supplied with pinless blades, according to the instruction (as if they could be trusted :wink: ) the adaptor clamps are in 4 pieces 2 for the top 2 for the bottom and are adjusted by screws to centre the blade?????
I may be having second thoughts about the SIP if it uses a similar clamping system for pinless blades, I had bought a selection of various makes and sizes all pinless (I know I know but they were part of the pressie  Can anyone recommend an inexpensive machine (£150 or so) which has a quick change system for pinless blades and is reliable and easy for a numpty to use......sorry that should read wannabe numpty I don't know enough yet to attain a numpty rating :lol:


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## Gill (13 Sep 2007)

keithhickson":2xk89lzv said:


> Can anyone recommend an inexpensive machine (£150 or so) which has a quick change system for pinless blades and is reliable and easy...


Until a few months ago, the obvious answer would have been a Delta. Unfortunately, Delta no longer distributes its machinery to the UK so they're not available brand new from retailers with all the warranties and support which you would normally expect. Second-hand Deltas sometimes appear on eBay, but that's always a bit of a punt.

Gill


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## StevieB (13 Sep 2007)

Warning - Gloat Alert - End Warning.

Keep an eye out though - I recently picked up a returned AWFS18 from Axminster for £130. Reason for return - buyer didnt like the blade release clamps! Saved myself over £90 from the catalogue price and it hadn't even been used. Fantastic machine from the little use I have given it so far, much prefer it to the diamond I got from ebay which I have tried to love but dont seem to be able to for some reason.

Second hand Hegners are also worth a look but rarely go for less than £200 I am afraid.

Steve.


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## keithhickson (13 Sep 2007)

StevieB":22orkssj said:


> Warning - Gloat Alert - End Warning.
> 
> Keep an eye out though - I recently picked up a returned AWFS18 from Axminster for £130. Reason for return - buyer didnt like the blade release clamps! Saved myself over £90 from the catalogue price and it hadn't even been used. Fantastic machine from the little use I have given it so far, much prefer it to the diamond I got from ebay which I have tried to love but dont seem to be able to for some reason.
> 
> ...


Pray tell what was/is wrong with the diamond and the blade clamps on the Axminster????


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## Gill (13 Sep 2007)

I've just tried to visit the Diamond website but the host gave me a "PWP - 403 Error - You are not authorized to view this page - This site is forbidden for you to see." Is anyone else having problems?

Not owning an AWFS18, I'll let others speak about that  . However, I do have experience of the Diamond and the big problem with the blade holders is the lack of a quick release system. To release one end of the blade, you have to loosen the tension adjustment knob at the back of the saw, then loosen the thumbscrew on the clamp which holds the blade, remove/insert the blade and hold it in alignment while you tighten the blade clamp (although Type 7 blade holders overcome this particular deficiency), then tighten the tension adjustment knob again to the correct tension.

I've got to say, though, Diamond saws are superb in most other respects. How many other saws have blade holders which can be rotated through 360 degrees, slowed to practically zero (the speed control box is a bit suspect, though), accept practically any sort of blade (including old bits of band saw blades) and have a dust blower which is separately powered? Added to which, the manufacturer offers probably the best customer service you'll experience anywhere in the world, even on second-hand saws. It's just unfortunate that this excellent saw hasn't been updated over the last few years to compete with more modern machines.

Gill


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## keithhickson (13 Sep 2007)

Many thanks Gill for the answer as a beginner I think I'd best find a machine, and it sounds like a once loved one would be best, that has an easy blade change as doubtless I'll be breaking them on a regular basis :lol:


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## StevieB (13 Sep 2007)

Nothing at all wrong with the AWFS18 blade clamps, but the previous owner thought they were quick release and they are not (from the blurb on the returns sheet that came with the saw). Not a problem for me as I do not do that many piercing cuts, and I believe the Hegner quick release clamps fit if I ever feel the need...

As to the Diamond, its a combination of a couple of niggles - it very big so doesnt fit nicely on my bench, its noisy, particularly at high speed, and the fact that the blade can cut in 360 degrees means forward alignment can take some setting up. Since it was a second hand bargin from e-bay I can't comment on newer saws, and to be honest I haven't had a major play with it to see if I can improve matters. It and I didnt gel and I havent had time to get to know it any better as it were  

Steve.


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## keithhickson (13 Sep 2007)

Many thanks Steve. I gues I just keep looking, however it will have to wait a couple of weeks so the refund clears, that may give one of the worthy readers of this forum time to remember the old "doorstop" they replaced with the bright new shiny that sits on their bench :lol: Hey there's nowt wrong with hoping is there?


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## Brucio (13 Sep 2007)

Hi Keith,
Looking again at your photos, the clamps are NOT the same as the SIP.
On the SIP, the hex bolt that tightens the clamp is further up and further back than the top of the blade.
I would have thought that whatever make of saw you bought, if it uses pinless blades, they *have* to clamped somehow.
On the SIP, these blades fit in the same slot as pinned blades, and a hex bolt at the top and bottom clamps, simply clamps the blades.
Once you've tightened the bottom clamp, you need never touch it unless changing blades.
As for inside cuts, release the tension lever (just flip it up), stick the t-wrench in the top clamp, one twist and the blade is released. Drop your wood onto the blade, put the blade back in the slot, one twist of the t-wrench tightens the clamp. Drop the tension lever down, and start cutting!
At the moment, I can't think of a simpler method.
Bruce


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## scroller frank (13 Sep 2007)

Hi all ,
Delta on ebay, 2 speed with quick set blade change Item number: 280152345824 . can't get better for the price IMHO ,!!!

---------------Frank-----------


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## keithhickson (14 Sep 2007)

Sssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Frank don't tell everyone :lol: Seriously many thanks to you all for your valued input, I'll take a look at both choices and see what happens.

Regards

Keith


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