# Laminated softwood bench tops.



## Cheshirechappie (12 Jun 2012)

There is a thread currently running discussing some aspects of advice given in videos and blog by Paul Sellers, and it covers several topics. Among them is his advice on making bench-tops - by laminating 3x2 softwood. (I've posted this seperate thread because there are several 'discussions' ongoing on that thread in which I do not wish to intrude.)

About 20 years ago, when I knew even less about woodworking than I do now, I built my bench. There were many things I got wrong with the design - the underframe is not rigid enough, the tailvice is in the wrong place, the toolwell is too large (about half the benchtop area) and just becomes a place to lose tools amongst the shavings. 

However, there is one aspect that has stood the test of time. The working surface. Because I had no access to decent hardwoods, I made it from what I could get - 3x2 redwood, laminated together - and using only a B&D Workmate to build it on.

That bench has served in several locations (the kitchen of my first house, then an upstairs bedroom, then a conservatory, now a garage) but has remained flat and straight. I attribute that to being careful to alternate the growth rings of the pieces when glueing it up. Being softwood, it does 'cut up' and bruise a little more than a 'proper' hardwood one would, but has nonetheless done good service to an amateur for two decades.

So - for anybody unsure about Mr Sellers' advice on this matter (I make no comment on other matters) my experience suggests that his method of making a bench-top will give a serviceable result. Not perfect, maybe, but definitely adequate for purpose, and certainly enough to make decent work on. Including, in due course, a 'better' benchtop?


----------



## Corneel (12 Jun 2012)

Yes, my fir bench is now "only" 5 years old and still going strong. Like you say it takes dents easilly, but nothing disasterous.

I did flatten it once. There was about 1mm cup in the middle over a 60cm width.


----------



## AndyT (12 Jun 2012)

I just wish I had had access to advice like his when I built my bench over 20 years ago. I used chipboard (kitchen worktop) for the top of it. It has been ok, and I have had good use out of it - but I knew no better. If a clear demo of how to make something with limited facilities had been around, I could have made a much better bench, within the limits of the skills and tools I had then.


----------



## twothumbs (12 Jun 2012)

Well stated. You do what you do. If you didn't , nothing would (wood) ever get done. Good luck.


----------



## Jacob (12 Jun 2012)

Mines 3x9" one piece redwood. Actually two, it's the two beam variation. Sellers' version would produce a more stable (laminated) top at less cost, with more labour, but with more easily available materials (3x2"). Good stuff IMHO and all anybody really needs.


----------



## GazPal (13 Jun 2012)

Cheshirechappie":2tsj7dkr said:


> So - for anybody unsure about Mr Sellers' advice on this matter (I make no comment on other matters) my experience suggests that his method of making a bench-top will give a serviceable result. Not perfect, maybe, but definitely adequate for purpose, and certainly enough to make decent work on. Including, in due course, a 'better' benchtop?




Great thread  

Just to add his method matches recommendations made by The Schwarz and a number of other woodworking guru, as well as benches used by many in the trade. 

In all honesty, laminated bench tops are IMHO the best and most stable route to follow. The additional degree of initial effort involved in materials preparation - in comparison to using wider boards/battens - and assembly is repaid constantly throughout the resulting workbench's lifespan. Especially if you're able to orient the battens so their grain closely mirrors that of quarter sawn timber. In terms of lifespan, the resulting bench can potentially see daily use, remaining stable and serviceable for several generations as long as it's not abused, but the top can readily be flipped or replaced if need be and without costing an arm or leg. 

Add a good quality vise and anything's possible in terms of the work you can produce. 

Quote (Dated 13/06/2012): "Gotta get people woodworking and get rid of all procrastinating that says you can’t do it this way or that way. I think I have likely made at least fifty benches this way through the years although not all of them in my back yard.

This is fun to do though. Not everyone has much more than a back yard to work in and I wanted the challenge to be as real as possible so I can forewarn those following what to look out for."

-- Paul Sellers, UK http://paulsellers.com/paul-sellers-blog


----------



## bugbear (13 Jun 2012)

GazPal":2wqpnxw7 said:


> Cheshirechappie":2wqpnxw7 said:
> 
> 
> > So - for anybody unsure about Mr Sellers' advice on this matter (I make no comment on other matters) my experience suggests that his method of making a bench-top will give a serviceable result. Not perfect, maybe, but definitely adequate for purpose, and certainly enough to make decent work on. Including, in due course, a 'better' benchtop?
> ...



There is (was) a much copied bench plan/website "Bob and Dave’s Good, Fast, and Cheap Bench "; it included a laminated top, with copious advice on how to make it.

Sadly his website is no more (even the wayback only has the text, not the helpful images of his young son building the bench using only hand tools).

There's LOTS of sites by people who made the bench though. Google finds them easily.

Sample clone bench

EDIT: hooray! Someone made a PDF of the site before it went away:

http://picnicpark.org/keith/woodworking ... nch-ne.pdf
Mod edit: added to the books, plans and how-to thread CHJ

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (13 Jun 2012)

Hmm doesn't look good, fast, or cheap!
What a waste those great heavy rails. No aprons - fashion victim!


----------



## Gerard Scanlan (13 Jun 2012)

I am really tempted to make the bench Paul Sellers is currently making. I recently read the Scharz book and had decided that his English bench with the large apron was a better choice for me. I was going to use sycamore as I have a fair amount of it already seasoned but I can see the sense in using softwood after watching Paul Sellers at work. 
A cutting list for the Seller's bench would have been nice though. Looks like I am going to have to wait until he has finished his build and then go through all the posts and video's making notes. Price of admission...


----------



## GazPal (13 Jun 2012)

Gerard Scanlan":2wqyj7hz said:


> I am really tempted to make the bench Paul Sellers is currently making. I recently read the Scharz book and had decided that his English bench with the large apron was a better choice for me. I was going to use sycamore as I have a fair amount of it already seasoned but I can see the sense in using softwood after watching Paul Sellers at work.
> A cutting list for the Seller's bench would have been nice though. Looks like I am going to have to wait until he has finished his build and then go through all the posts and video's making notes. Price of admission...



A cutting list shouldn't be too hard to pull together



Jacob":2wqyj7hz said:


> Hmm doesn't look good, fast, or cheap!
> What a waste those great heavy rails. No aprons - fashion victim!



I agree regarding the rails and lack of apron, plus build quality is lacking. A valiant effort though, but I'm sorely tempted to knock a fresh bench together in my back yard for the sake of a tutorial on here.


----------



## Jacob (13 Jun 2012)

Gerard Scanlan":14cgzweu said:


> I am really tempted to make the bench Paul Sellers is currently making. I recently read the Scharz book and had decided that his English bench with the large apron was a better choice for me. I was going to use sycamore as I have a fair amount of it already seasoned but I can see the sense in using softwood after watching Paul Sellers at work.
> A cutting list for the Seller's bench would have been nice though. Looks like I am going to have to wait until he has finished his build and then go through all the posts and video's making notes. Price of admission...


Cutting list? The work of a few minutes once you have decided on the size.
I wouldn't follow the Schwarz design- too fussy. There seems to be a belief that the more complicated the better it is. You get things like that fantasy woodwork bench linked to somewhere recently (Artisan bench was it?) which was verging on the insane.
Keep it simple IMHO!

PS this is a fantasy bench http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=105 :roll:


----------



## David C (13 Jun 2012)

PS Just why do you bother to be rude and dismissive about other people's work?

This is the reason why threads that you engage in degenerate so fast.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Paul Chapman (13 Jun 2012)

Jacob":28qe9uz3 said:


> PS this is a fantasy bench http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=105 :roll:



That really is a stupid remark, Jacob. Richard makes some of the finest commercially-available benches.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Jacob (13 Jun 2012)

David C":frd6plk5 said:


> PS Just why do you bother to be rude and dismissive about other people's work?
> 
> This is the reason why threads that you engage in degenerate so fast.
> 
> David Charlesworth


The reason these threads degenerate (and not only mine) is that people can't resist making personal remarks, as you are doing in this post. This thread is about benchs in case you hadn't noticed. If you haven't anything useful or interesting to say it'd be better to say nothing, instead of attempting to send the thread off course into another boring round of squabbling.

Being critical of other people's work is completely legitimate and part of the very reason for forums like this and long may it continue. Kicking ideas about can be a constructive process (think "critique") .

PS David you yourself were being "rude and dismissive" about P Sellers bench in another thread. I've no objection to that and I don't suppose PS would be bothered either! Though it might be interesting to know _why_ you were so rude and dismissive.


----------



## wcndave (13 Jun 2012)

Maybe by "fantasy" he means out of this world....i wouldn't turn one down that's for sure!


----------



## Jacob (13 Jun 2012)

wcndave":37b7bffl said:


> Maybe by "fantasy" he means out of this world....i wouldn't turn one down that's for sure!


Well yes in terms of a piece of woodwork. But is it a practical bench? I was thinking of those massive pieces of oak being joined with such difficulty - some of the other benches look a bit more realistic!


----------



## Paul Chapman (13 Jun 2012)

Jacob":1whvaejt said:


> But is it a practical bench? I was thinking of those massive pieces of oak being joined with such difficulty



Not difficult, only heavy. And how do you or anyone else on here know whether it's a practical bench when we have no idea who the customer is?

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Jacob (13 Jun 2012)

Paul Chapman":5peh7i7d said:


> Jacob":5peh7i7d said:
> 
> 
> > But is it a practical bench? I was thinking of those massive pieces of oak being joined with such difficulty
> ...


OK it could have a special purpose. Can't think what though.


----------



## andy king (13 Jun 2012)

Jacob":tzqoy7qa said:


> David C":tzqoy7qa said:
> 
> 
> > PS Just why do you bother to be rude and dismissive about other people's work?
> ...





Jacob":tzqoy7qa said:


> PS this is a fantasy bench http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=105



I'd say its because of the way you post. This appoach you choose is a provocative comment. If you said _'In my opinion' _as a qualifier, then fine, and the discussion could move on very easily, but you are seemingly stating a set in stone fact, when it is only your opinion - and the rolling eyes smiley does little to help either.
In _my_ opinion the bench is certainly beyond the realms of the majority of people for many reasons. Cost a major factor, but also weight and others in between depending on what you want from a bench.
The omission of an apron isn't an oversight on any bench, its a preference, at least, it should be if you make your own. I fitted aprons to mine because i prefer them.
Others have given reasoning in threads as to why they prefer a slab top.
I made my own bench using beech with heavy section ash legs, and the underframe is as important as the top if you don't want the bench to dance around or rack as you work, planing is a prime example.
If you use powertools not so critical, but doing a lot of handwork on a bench that has a skinny or inadequately built legframe will prove frustrating, as will a top that won't soak up or deaden the blows from heavy chopping jobs upon it.
Its a choice, and like anything, the choice is yours, and the cheap and cheerful will do the job if that's your choice, but some prefer that bit more.

Andy


----------



## Noel (13 Jun 2012)

Paul Chapman":117lifs4 said:


> Jacob":117lifs4 said:
> 
> 
> > But is it a practical bench? I was thinking of those massive pieces of oak being joined with such difficulty
> ...



Paul, I think that any comments related to these particular oak benches concern cost, sourcing of the oak, the weight and size of the timber components, the space needed to build it and perhaps, for some, the necessary building skills. A simple softwood bench is more than practical for most.
I think you have a similar bench to the oak examples and fair play to you but for many, myself included, it's not a realistic or indeed a necessary proposition.

Mr Charlesworth:



> PS Just why do you bother to be rude and dismissive about other people's work?
> 
> This is the reason why threads that you engage in degenerate so fast.
> 
> David Charlesworth



Come on, that was hardly necessary, I don't think calling Schwarz's bench "fussy" justified such an outburst especially considering your comments on the other bench thread.

So can we all be pleasant, sensible, friendly and above all, open minded, in our discussions please. 

PS- a good friend and a very talented woodworker friend of mind makes wonderful pieces on something similar to this:







Made out of scrap (in case that wasn't obvious to some....) it suits his needs. He also has a slightly larger version with a vice but the little one gets the most use.

Bugbear- I remember that bench when the their site was live. Wonder if the kid has still an interest in WW?


----------



## mtr1 (13 Jun 2012)

The weird thing about my set up now is, I use a cabinetmakers bench as a tool shelf/junk pile with a bit ( and I mean a bit) of space around the vice, and a 8x4 setting out bench as my work bench (made from pine and mdf). I just prefer the size I think, I might even get rid of the bench and install a shelf in its place :shock: I think a softwood laminated top would be more than adequate, I used reclaimed hardwood on mine at the time, because that was available cheap.


----------



## Paul Chapman (13 Jun 2012)

Noel":rhruqq4a said:


> Paul Chapman":rhruqq4a said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":rhruqq4a said:
> ...



Noel, 

The reason for my comments was that Jacob drew attention to the bench Richard Maguire is making for a customer and, in his usual manner, tried to ridicule it. Jacob knows nothing about the end use of the bench or about the person for whom it is being built. It has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, which is about building inexpensive benches from soft wood.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## GazPal (13 Jun 2012)

Paul Chapman":184diumg said:


> Jacob":184diumg said:
> 
> 
> > But is it a practical bench? I was thinking of those massive pieces of oak being joined with such difficulty
> ...




I'd give my eye teeth for one, but honestly couldn't justify the cost of having one made, although we did have very similar benches in my family's workshops dating from the early Georgian period. Kudos to anyone investing in such a bench, they are great to work from, but such examples tend to be out of reach for most and the stuff of fantasy for others in much the same way as ownership of their favourite handplane or ............... (Insert particular tool or workpiece).

-------------

I think entry level benches are what they are/can be and deservedly remain either as basic or complex as their makers wish them to be. One example being that far eastern craftsmen work from single beams resting close to the ground.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (13 Jun 2012)

Something worth bearing in mind when contemplating a bench design and build, or bench buy, is what it is intended to do. A bench is a device for holding workpieces steady at a convenient height to carry out work on them. It's not a showpiece in the way that a dining table or display cabinet is, it's just a functional, no-frills workhorse. (Corollary - if someone wants to make or buy a showpiece bench, that's fine - nothing wrong with that - it's just not absolutely necessary, in the same way that a Ford Mondeo will get you about in just the same way that a Rolls-Royce will. Nice to have a Rolls - and good luck to those who do - but not 'necessary'.)

For many of us, fine timbers are expensive. I would happily pay £50 per cubic foot or more for materials for a fine piece to go in the lounge, but paying that for bench material is something I'd baulk at. Even the cheaper hardwoods seem to be around the £25 cu. ft. mark - plus VAT, plus delivery. If you come across some decent hardwood for peanuts, then of course you should use it; but for those of us less fortunate, we use what we can get at a sensible price. When you're an amateur setting up a workshop on a budget, perhaps with a morgage to pay and a young family to feed, surplus pounds might not be easy to find. Tools are not cheap, machinery - even secondhand - even less so.

So, anything that gives a workable bench at minimal cost is worthwhile. Builder's merchants redwood will make a perfectly acceptable bench on a budget - mine has done twenty years service to support that assertion. Later in life, when money isn't so tight, maybe you can do things differently.

For the professional, things are a bit different. The bench will be used far more intensively, week in week out. A hardwood top will wear better. But you'll have to invest capital up front in order to provide the tool for the job. For most of us amateurs, that need doesn't really apply.


----------



## GazPal (13 Jun 2012)

I think most here are on the same or adjacent pages in terms of benches and can agree to a point regarding the need to match their bench to the work they expect to produce when working from it.

Another topic and perhaps another thread (Although I think this ties in nicely with bench builds) is matching work holding to the bench. I'm not a fan of leg vise following an incident during which I almost broke a knee bumping into one at work, but do like Record style cast iron vise, with my particular favourite being their #52.1/2 and 53. My vises are the older type of the quick release variety, but plain screw vise are just as serviceable, although a tad slower to work from if producing pieces of varying size/dimensions.


----------



## Lons (13 Jun 2012)

I confess to having never made a "proper" bench  

My first was from necessity a cheapo out of some surplus 4x4 posts, 4x2 framing and a top out of some excellent scrounged scaffold boards 9" wide and 3" thick. With an old Record vice fitted, it served well for many years. It wasn't pretty but did the job and that's the important thing. Even the humble B&D workmate has it's place or an old kitchen table if it starts people on the road to more ambitious things.

I later aquired an old college bench with a beech top. Single sided, small and battered but solid as a rock and suits me fine. 
I would like to make a decent bench though just for the satisfaction it would give me.  

Bob


----------



## dunbarhamlin (13 Jun 2012)

Richard clearly feels he has too many toes :shock: 







Certainly can't fault the build quality - just perhaps more than needed if building oneself to use for a job of work.

He _does_ offer a bench with an apron - the Empire


----------



## Jacob (14 Jun 2012)

dunbarhamlin":1l5ylc72 said:


> ........
> He _does_ offer a bench with an apron - the Empire


A proper bench! All it needs is a Record 53 (PS and a well) and we are back to reality!


> .... is inspired by a workbench that formed the backbone of English woodworking for centuries & yet sadly began to disappear with the age of industry. This workbench is a testament to the phrase ‘less is more’ and demonstrates just how efficient simplicity can be.


It hasn't disappeared at all - it's still the standard most common pattern. So I suppose Sellers is also "inspired" etc. 
I don't agree that _Traditionally the bench would have been light, _ - they were often heavy (mine is) and 3" beams is the norm
I absolutely agree with :_ ‘less is more’ ... demonstrates just how efficient simplicity can be._ but it's often a difficult concept to sell. Hence the fussiness of so many of the alternatives.
It's very cheap if hand made.


----------



## bugbear (14 Jun 2012)

Noel":z7ievu2m said:


> Bugbear- I remember that bench when the their site was live. Wonder if the kid has still an interest in WW?



Nah - he's just a "fashion victim".

BugBear


----------



## Gerard Scanlan (14 Jun 2012)

As far as the luxury benches only being something professionals can justify is not necessarily true. In my experience it is the wealthy amateurs who spend a fortune on benches and tools. Professional only means that a person earns their keep from doing the thing and so they don't usually put more money into the tools and workshop than they really need too. That would mean that a luxury hardwood workbench would be low on the list of priorities. But if you are a merchant banker or made your millions in IT then you might not want a 200 quid self built bench, you would want the very 'best' in benches and so a couple of thousand pounds might be just the ticket.
I could be wrong of course, I have been before...


----------



## marcros (14 Jun 2012)

Dont be fooled, it isnt just the merchant bankers spending this money on a bench. Some people with spare cash choose to spend it on a car, others on holidays, golf clubs, computers, photography equipment etc. A thousand pound bench is the price of a good quality table saw and will last for many many years..


----------



## Jacob (14 Jun 2012)

I was talking to an ex restorer who used to work for a well known firm restoring and doing new work. He says the benches were basically the familiar standard pattern (I suppose you could call them the British bench or simplified Nicholson) but were largely decrepit - ancient but endlessly repaired on the cheap, sometimes with new tops but with dexion and chipboard bodge repairs in other parts. Record vices. Non of them would have cost more than £200 to make, plus the vice being the costliest bit. He's been around a bit but had never seen the "continental" style anywhere, or a tail vice etc etc..
I think that would be fairly typical.


----------



## Racers (14 Jun 2012)

Hi, Jacob

I see you are still comparing us armatures to professionals.

Pete


----------



## GazPal (14 Jun 2012)

Gerard Scanlan":ifz2ozh9 said:


> As far as the luxury benches only being something professionals can justify is not necessarily true. In my experience it is the wealthy amateurs who spend a fortune on benches and tools. Professional only means that a person earns their keep from doing the thing and so they don't usually put more money into the tools and workshop than they really need too. That would mean that a luxury hardwood workbench would be low on the list of priorities. But if you are a merchant banker or made your millions in IT then you might not want a 200 quid self built bench, you would want the very 'best' in benches and so a couple of thousand pounds might be just the ticket.
> I could be wrong of course, I have been before...



I know a few professionals willing to pay an arm and leg for extremely high grade equipment due to their passion for both occupation and good tools. I certainly agree in terms of how one justifies purchases on both professional and amateur levels  and if you have the pennies for a top end bench why not have one 

Funny thing is I always enjoyed making my own, but think it bears directly on how I was brought into the trade in a fairly old fashioned way.


----------



## Mr Maguire (14 Jun 2012)

Hi All,

Workbench design always seems to be a touchy subject amongst woodworkers so it never surprises me when a discussed becomes a bit heated. I think some people must get on so well with their own bench that they believe everyone else has it wrong but as many people have pointed out there really isn’t a right or wrong design its more about bring fit for the intended use. I’ve been watching Paul Seller’s build with great interest and must say what a fantastic job he’s doing at enabling woodworkers to get to grips with a bench build regardless of their skill or equipment. Any encouragement to get started in or learn more about the craft has to be positive.
Should a workbench have aprons? Well to dictate one way or the other would be a bit like saying we should all use wooden planes or build the same style of furniture. I personally love working of a bench with deep aprons but don’t often use a tail vice and if I did would find them very awkward and annoying if I was pushing up bench dogs frequently. It’s fascinating to see people’s different takes on workbench design and experienced woodworkers will often have tweaks unique to themselves where they’ve found a solution that works perfectly just for them and their methods.

Jacob - With regards to your comment, “ You get things like that fantasy wood work bench .. Which was verging on the insane.” this is a little strong don’t you think? But maybe you feel that all luxuries in life are insane? Also bear in mind that whilst being a luxury this bench is designed entirely around function and although handmade you can buy a mass produced bench from Axminster for the same price. I don’t know what you do for a living but I’m sure you work very hard and so would be gutted should your work get publicly slatted without just reason. Wouldn’t it be tragic if makers in all fields and crafts stopped because the country was simply too ignorant for them? I take it you’re not one to say “they don’t make them like they used to”!

Richard


----------



## Jacob (14 Jun 2012)

Mr Maguire":d64zt14m said:


> ....
> Jacob - With regards to your comment, “ You get things like that fantasy wood work bench .. Which was verging on the insane.” this is a little strong don’t you think?


OK, OTT then! Not a lot in it.


> But maybe you feel that all luxuries in life are insane?


No


> Also bear in mind that whilst being a luxury this bench is designed entirely around function


 What function would require such a heavy bench? You could stand a traction engine on it. Does your client make traction engines? Surely the objective is just "luxury"


> ... would be gutted should your work get publicly slatted without just reason


.Wasn't publicly "slatted" at all, you are being just a little oversensitive.


> Just Wouldn’t it be tragic if makers in all fields and crafts stopped because the country was simply too ignorant for them?


What has ignorance got to do with it?


> I take it you’re not one to say “they don’t make them like they used to”!
> 
> Richard


I don't think they ever made them quite as massive as yours! Good luck to you if you can sell them but the thread is about practical benches. It seems that a lot of people want almost anything rather than the traditional bench and the more complicated the offering the more they like it. 
But as you said yourself apropos your ‘Empire’ - i_nspired by a workbench that formed the backbone of English woodworking for centuries ...... This workbench is a testament to the phrase ‘less is more’ and demonstrates just how efficient simplicity can be.‘less is more’ and demonstrates just how efficient simplicity can be"_ - I'm behind you on all that, but I'd want a well in the "Empire"!

Public health warning - not your fault Mr M, but this thread is being trolled already and will probably go rapidly downhill. Pity really.


----------



## DTR (14 Jun 2012)

Slightly off-topic, but a related question: In a bench with an underframe supporting the top (for example, Chris Schwarz's "Nicholson" and I suspect Richard Maguire's "Empire"), how is movement of the top dealt with? In my own bench the top is fixed at the front, and any movement is absorbed by the tool well.


----------



## Jacob (14 Jun 2012)

DTR":1yd4cnnx said:


> Slightly off-topic, but a related question: In a bench with an underframe supporting the top (for example, Chris Schwarz's "Nicholson" and I suspect Richard Maguire's "Empire"), how is movement of the top dealt with? In my own bench the top is fixed at the front, and any movement is absorbed by the tool well.


I think it'd be a problem. A well makes it easy to just whip off a few mm to bring the beam or beams into line. If I was going to join massive timbers like Mr Maguire's I'd do it the easy way with steel rod through with nuts on threaded ends. You could then tighten/loosen or separate the pieces for planing, if necessary.


----------



## Mr Maguire (14 Jun 2012)

Hi DTR,

Tool wells are 'reletively' new in English benches so on a lot of the ones I've seen the movement has to be allowed for out the back of the bench. So the front is fixed firm to the front apron and the expansion is allowed for over the top of the rear apron so it isn't fixed firmly at that point and many didn't have a rear apron at all.
I've taken a very different approach with my design, so the function is based on the 'English' bench however the construction is very different. The tops are thicker than the majority which means it can support itself without having to have internal splines. The tops are also built in two sections and so I fix them firmly at both the front and the back sending the expansion to the middle of the bench where there is a gap for a flip stop. The fit of the stop will vary through the seasons but will always function. 

Richard


----------



## No skills (15 Jun 2012)

This thread is quite interesting to me, hope it can be nudged back on course. Are there any 'show your workbench' threads on this forum? would be interesting to see what people are using.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (15 Jun 2012)

Jacob":1gca9d2c said:


> DTR":1gca9d2c said:
> 
> 
> > Slightly off-topic, but a related question: In a bench with an underframe supporting the top (for example, Chris Schwarz's "Nicholson" and I suspect Richard Maguire's "Empire"), how is movement of the top dealt with? In my own bench the top is fixed at the front, and any movement is absorbed by the tool well.
> ...



That was my thought - I'd just run stainless threaded bar through, and save an awful lot of work!

Phil.


----------



## Jacob (15 Jun 2012)

Mr Maguire":27gp67fw said:


> .....to the middle of the bench where there is a gap for a flip stop. ....
> 
> Richard


Didn't know it was called a 'flip stop'. You can do similar with a well - one or two loose pieces of 3x2 across the width of the well but sticking up as a stop. Then if the well is 2" or more you can turn the 3x2 sideways and out of the way.


----------



## bugbear (15 Jun 2012)

Jacob":p2qvbvjc said:


> It seems that a lot of people want almost anything rather than the traditional bench



The "dream" benches being discussed appear to be traditional benches - but *German* traditional benches.

BugBear


----------



## matthewwh (15 Jun 2012)

Interesting, I found the well on my bench more trouble than it was worth and filled most of it in. If I were starting from scratch I would go for a left handed bench (even though I'm right handed) as I like to work on the right hand end of the front vice, my ultimate bench would weigh an absolute ton because it's a non-portable fixed object for attaching things to when you don't want them to move - why risk getting anywhere even close to the flimsy end of the spectrum? 

There are so many wonderful variations available when it comes to benches, trying to be prescriptive about what others should have is as ridiculous as calling for all other flavours of ice cream to be banned because you only like mint choc chip.


----------



## Paul Chapman (15 Jun 2012)

matthewwh":2j0iqkvz said:


> There are so many wonderful variations available when it comes to benches, trying to be prescriptive about what others should have is as ridiculous as calling for all other flavours of ice cream to be banned because you only like mint choc chip.



Well said =D> 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Mr Maguire (15 Jun 2012)

Threaded bar is a great point to bring up is you're considering reinforcing a bench top. Take a look at the Shaker benches and you'll see that many adopted a similar method with great success. There is an issue if you are joining a wide top probably more than 18" as in my experience expansion makes the top inclined to cup because its being held firm from both ends. The difference with the pegged tenons is that they only hold at the edge of the joins and so allow each of the slabs to independently expand and contract whilst the glue line is forced tight. There are only two joins in the oak top so the tenons were very plausible and this bench is based on a simple but clever French design that uses contraction in the top to strength the bench over time, in the majority of benches pegged tenons would certainly not be necessary. Paul Seller's design uses two narrower slabs for the top (I think) so if you were concerned about reinforcing the glue line then the threaded bar would be preferable as the slabs aren't wide and there are multiple staves. Using threaded bar can be deceitfully challenging though so it would come down to the skill and equipment etc as to whether it was considered necessary.
Richard


----------



## Jacob (15 Jun 2012)

matthewwh":ws4rjpw3 said:


> ....
> There are so many wonderful variations available when it comes to benches,


Hmm, only on the fringe - the basic Brit bench is very common and just about "standard". Not fashionable though. Too much fashion in woodwork nowadays. Aprons going up and down like hem-lines.


> trying to be prescriptive about what others should have is as ridiculous as calling for all other flavours of ice cream to be banned because you only like mint choc chip.


Nobody is calling for bans (yet, at any rate!). What's wrong with being prescriptive? Nobody has to take any notice if they don't want to. I certainly don't!


----------



## Jacob (15 Jun 2012)

Mr Maguire":1d3rj5l4 said:


> ..... Using threaded bar can be deceitfully challenging ....
> Richard


Not really, it's dead simple. The hole for the bar can be a square mortice or round drilled hole, well oversize and not necessarily accurate as long as the bar can be threaded through. Then it is closed off at each end either by a plate, or by finishing the mortice on the outer edges with a round hole the diameter of the bar. A loose fit for easy alignment of the pieces, which could also have stub tenons for location purposes if required.


----------



## wcndave (15 Jun 2012)

Jacob":3q4i0esw said:


> The hole for the bar can be a square mortice or round drilled hole, well oversize and not necessarily accurate as long as the bar can be threaded through. Then it is closed off at each end either by a plate, or by finishing the mortice on the outer edges with a round hole the diameter of the bar. A loose fit for easy alignment of the pieces, which could also have stub tenons for location purposes if required.



Sounds complicated to me, not everyone find everything so obvious and easy as certain people...

what the hell was this post about in the first place :?:


----------



## bugbear (15 Jun 2012)

wcndave":jvjdt80u said:


> Jacob":jvjdt80u said:
> 
> 
> > The hole for the bar can be a square mortice or round drilled hole, well oversize and not necessarily accurate as long as the bar can be threaded through. Then it is closed off at each end either by a plate, or by finishing the mortice on the outer edges with a round hole the diameter of the bar. A loose fit for easy alignment of the pieces, which could also have stub tenons for location purposes if required.
> ...



I think Mr Maguire (who makes benches "professionally") was talking about the surprisingly complex _consequences_ of the technique, not the (fairly simple) _fitting_ of the bar, which comes down to "drill a big enough hole, use nuts on both ends" 

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (15 Jun 2012)

bugbear":16226n6d said:


> ....
> I think Mr Maguire (who makes benches "professionally") was talking about the surprisingly complex _consequences_ of the technique,


What would they be then?


> not the (fairly simple) _fitting_ of the bar, which comes down to "drill a big enough hole, use nuts on both ends"
> 
> BugBear


Yes it is simple - but I have encountered the problem where someone has imagined that the hole needs to be a good fit along the whole length, like a M&T or a dowel in a short hole; the bar itself aligning the components. That would be difficult . A very tiny "lateral thinking" step was all that was needed


----------



## Gerard Scanlan (15 Jun 2012)

Meanwhile Paul Sellers forges ahead with his soft wood laminated bench  
He will have no doubt finished it before the weekend.
More angles on poor mans routers too.
I think it is great.


----------



## AndyT (15 Jun 2012)

He does say he's made 100 of these benches - which is a lot more than I have!

I do think it's good for beginners to have something like his blog and videos where the solution to a problem is not always 'spend more money' but instead is 'get round it with the basic tools that you have already'.

That said, his assembly technique uses lots of expensive clamps. If I was making a glued up top like that as a penniless beginner, I'd be looking for methods that don't need clamps. Two spring to mind:

1 - add strips one at a time (or one on each side) with long screws to hold them down while the glue sets. Remove screws before adding the next strips, to avoid drilling into them later.

2 - use scrap timber, cross battens and folding wedges to make some simple sash clamp equivalents.


----------



## Jacob (15 Jun 2012)

AndyT":3evd7dg1 said:


> He does say he's made 100 of these benches - which is a lot more than I have!
> .....
> That said, his assembly technique uses lots of expensive clamps. I......


Lemme think how many have I made, er, one! Mind you it's lasted well.
Cheap no-name clamps I thought. Expensive is Record etc. And he doesn't do any deliberate product placement in his book, though he can't avoid some names of course.


----------



## wcndave (15 Jun 2012)

I would have thought one would be better off going for something like this traditional bench, that I would have thought would be fit for purpose for every woodworker out there.

Not too expensive either!

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/workshop/bench/below20xl.html


----------



## AndyT (15 Jun 2012)

wcndave":2zi3abzh said:


> I would have thought one would be better off going for something like this traditional bench, that I would have thought would be fit for purpose for every woodworker out there.
> 
> Not too expensive either!
> 
> http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/workshop/bench/below20xl.html



At the risk of going round in circles, that design might serve for someone using power tools but would be frustratingly unsuitable if you want a sturdy surface to plane on or chop mortices. "Woodwork" covers such a wide span of activities - shipbuilding, house carpentry, joinery, cabinet making, turning, carving, scrolling etc - so it's really no surprise that different sorts of woodwork need different tools and different benches!


----------



## wcndave (15 Jun 2012)

AndyT":3cg9ud09 said:


> wcndave":3cg9ud09 said:
> 
> 
> > I would have thought one would be better off going for something like this traditional bench, that I would have thought would be fit for purpose for every woodworker out there.
> ...



Please leave room for sarcasm ;-)


----------



## AndyT (15 Jun 2012)

Ooops!

 

Sorry Dave


----------



## Cheshirechappie (15 Jun 2012)

AndyT":3tzd9u7a said:


> He does say he's made 100 of these benches - which is a lot more than I have!
> 
> I do think it's good for beginners to have something like his blog and videos where the solution to a problem is not always 'spend more money' but instead is 'get round it with the basic tools that you have already'.
> 
> ...



Oddly enough, method 2 is pretty much what I did when I built mine. No sash cramps then, and they were far more than I could afford. So I used some 3x1 with 1" holes placed strategically, one either side of the glue-up, and 1" dowels through the holes. A packer below and a pair of folding wedges above to apply the load. Must have been good enough, because the bench-top is still together twenty years on.


----------



## GazPal (16 Jun 2012)

I think the sash cramps Paul uses in his video are around £10 each and they're worth picking up if budget allows, but another option instead of buying fully assembled sash cramps is to invest in a few sets of cramp heads, so you're not limited by bar lengths, as bars can be made using scraps of timber of a length to suit the work in hand. :wink: 

If a method works.... use it, as long as it proves the best option within your budget and provides the best possible results


----------



## Gerard Scanlan (16 Jun 2012)

I am fairly sure the clamps Paul Sellers is using are available at 6 pounds each from axminster tools. You are going to need a set of clamps whatever happens so it is not like you are buying a jig for a one off job. Of course you could always use lengths of rope to clamp it up if you were unable to stretch to clamps at the time you were building your bench. I used to use a length of rope or stout string and twist a pencil length stick into the rope to tighen it round the work piece. I saw a teacher mend a chair like that more than 30 years ago and it certainly works.


----------



## No skills (16 Jun 2012)

For clamping smaller items Aldi's have some f and g clamp packs in again, 9.99 for 6 or something like that. Obviously not top end  but they certainly work.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (16 Jun 2012)

Gerard, it's a Spanish windlass, I believe.
phil.


----------



## Gerard Scanlan (16 Jun 2012)

Thanks Phil for giving my poor description a proper name. I still use this method for finer worker, like picture frames and boxes as it a lot lighter and so more delicate than clamps but is still does the job.

Gerard


----------



## heimlaga (18 Jun 2012)

I see that I am fortunate to live in a place where I can buy standing birches and can get them sawn and build anything I want from them.

My great-great-grandfather's old bench which was also my first bench has a pine bench top but in my oppinion it is way too soft for regular use. My present bench is built from birch and it is much better. It was probably built in the 1950's and is now slowly wearing out it's second owner (me).


----------



## Noel (5 Jul 2012)

Parts 2 & 3 up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lemsx2_A ... ure=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2fss7li ... ure=relmfu


----------



## bugbear (6 Jul 2012)

Noel":qyk54w4u said:


> Parts 2 & 3 up:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lemsx2_A ... ure=relmfu
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2fss7li ... ure=relmfu



Ah - the "Robert Wearing" first class cut technique; make a 'V' with a chisel prior to sawing. Probably overkill in this instance, but reliable.

BugBear


----------



## AndyT (6 Jul 2012)

bugbear":1lbba87b said:


> Ah - the "Robert Wearing" first class cut technique; make a 'V' with a chisel prior to sawing. Probably overkill in this instance, but reliable.
> 
> BugBear



I don't think it's a technique anyone owns - my woodwork teacher at school in the 70s was a Mr Vines, who didn't write any books, but he did show us how to cut a line for the saw to run in!


----------



## bugbear (6 Jul 2012)

AndyT":35miwiut said:


> bugbear":35miwiut said:
> 
> 
> > Ah - the "Robert Wearing" first class cut technique; make a 'V' with a chisel prior to sawing. Probably overkill in this instance, but reliable.
> ...



I withdraw my phrasing and offer "the technique Robert Wearing described as suitable for first class work".

BugBear


----------



## AndyT (6 Jul 2012)

Offer accepted!


----------



## Cheshirechappie (7 Jul 2012)

It seems to be taking a lot longer to upload the videos than make the bench. He hasn't got any legs, yet....


----------



## No skills (7 Jul 2012)

I hope they get the rest of the videos up soon but he seems to be too busy playing with mortice chisels at the moment :roll: 

Still cant complain too much, Sellers online stuff has been a useful information source for me the last few weeks. Tryed the knife and chisel the line method today and was pleased with the results.


----------



## Noel (7 Jul 2012)

Imagine the weather might be an issue.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (8 Jul 2012)

Noel":2p7lga4n said:


> Imagine the weather might be an issue.




Fair comment - though the way things are going, there may well be some who would value some solid information on underwater bench-building.


----------



## No skills (8 Jul 2012)

or rafts/boats.


----------



## wcndave (8 Jul 2012)

Given the blog is about five steps ahead, doubt it's the weather.


----------



## GazPal (9 Jul 2012)

Well, mortising is a necessity when producing the bench leg frames. I think covering the aspects of tool choices and crafting techniques is totally relevant to both build and adequate instruction.


----------



## Noel (9 Jul 2012)

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukMMQ1nvXt8


----------

