# Japanese Chisels



## Beau (10 Nov 2017)

Noticed in another thread a few members warning against buying Japanese Chisels. Not wanting to derail that thread thought it best to start afresh.

When I first trained I started with a set of boxwood Marples and picked up few Old English chisels over the years. Then tried some Japanese ones and to me they seemed far superior even the basic Oire Nomi. Easier to flatten (leave it Jacob), better edge and most important to me just better balanced to use. So what am I missing?


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## custard (10 Nov 2017)

Beau":15xqrq1h said:


> So what am I missing?



-More brittle in use and easily chipped. Not a problem if you're careful and never lever them, but too temperamental for a beginning woodworker.
-Decent ones need the hoops fitting, again that's a minefield for a beginner.
-Quite rust prone, dodgy if they live in a damp shed and only get used every now and again.
-Harder to find some of the interim sizes that come in very useful for stuff like dovetailing
-Little if any advantages over western chisels for 99% of practical woodworking jobs


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## D_W (10 Nov 2017)

What are basic oire nomi? (by that, I mean what price are we talking about?)

I have a couple of sets of japanese chisels, and I've had relatively expensive sets in the past but can't make a case that I need them (so they went out in a package to someone else). 

I'd say that for chopping type work, the japanese chisels are technically better unless you get caught up in wacky super hard chisels, etc, and then they become something you have to skill-build to use without damaging. 

By technically better, I mean you can literally sit down and cut rows and rows of sockets with a single finishing stone and the chisel will be in ideal shape when you're done with nothing but a few wipes on the finish stone during the process (no strop, no nothing). The white steel chisels also sharpen wonderfully on a washita stone if you can keep from damaging them (and they are barely cut by one, so they are masterfully sharp off of them). 

That said, if you're going to try to use them like English chisels (mild paring, or looking for delicate bevels to go into corners), you won't be very satisfied, and if you've not gotten over damaging tools, they're not such a great option. 

I don't know that there's much out there these days that's similar to the old boxwood handled marples, though. Maybe Ashley Iles Mk 2, but some of the rest of the stuff (stubai, two cherries, etc. is fairly gross)


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## Beau (10 Nov 2017)

custard":envrg89i said:


> Beau":envrg89i said:
> 
> 
> > So what am I missing?
> ...



Honestly amazed to here all that Custard

Yes the top flight ones are brittle but more basic models?

Cant say I ever worried about fitting the hoop but very rarely use a hammer on a chisel anyway

Never had any problems with rust and I live on Dartmoor which is about as wet as you can get

No idea on the sizes so I will leave that

Way sharper/longer lived edge is achievable IME but not tried lots of brands only Ward and Marples


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## Beau (10 Nov 2017)

Deleted duplicate


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## D_W (10 Nov 2017)

Edge holding in english chisels doesn't get a lot better than ward. 

In terms of brittle, I haven't noticed the mid-grade chisels to be that brittle (japanese), but they are a bit more picky about appropriate use due to hardness (cuts are straight in, that's it). You can lever with them, but they have to be set so that you can, and the narrow ones can be broken if you're trying to lever a mortise and being rough with them. 

If I were stuck with one set, I'd have the english type over japanese, though. We like to use our chisels for more stuff than chopping sockets and mortises, and the japanese don't really have much in the way of delicate edge chisels similar to what you find on the old marples, except maybe push chisels. 

Really doesn't matter with any of them if you can learn to sharpen each quickly.


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## ED65 (10 Nov 2017)

Beau":wbvktr6b said:


> ...and most important to me just better balanced to use.


Just on this, obviously a horses for courses type of thing anyway but "Japanese chisels" does cover a multitude. 

Some do look beautifully balanced to my eye and might be just as good in the hand too, but equally some others do not look well balanced to me and I've read comments (from Western users) who say they thought the same when using them so they've had to do something with the handles to address that, including in some cases replacing them. This seems like madness to me given what they cost but we woodworkers are a mad lot sometimes!


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## Beau (10 Nov 2017)

D_W":cdvmvwdk said:


> Edge holding in english chisels doesn't get a lot better than ward.
> 
> If I were stuck with one set, I'd have the english type over japanese, though. We like to use our chisels for more stuff than chopping sockets and mortises, and the japanese don't really have much in the way of delicate edge chisels similar to what you find on the old marples, except maybe push chisels.



My Ward is made of cheese :shock: nice delicate handle though and the only English chisel I will reach for in the workshop. My Marples are rreligated for rough site work.

My Marples edge is OK but the clumsy handles and the overly long blades do my head in.

Cant say about the quality of my Oire Nomi. Think my first was classed as Bronze Seal. Then picked up some cheap ones in a sale from Tilgear, think it was £20 for 3. Not classily fished but lovely to use once fettled.


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## custard (10 Nov 2017)

D_W":3j6d33j0 said:


> looking for delicate bevels to go into corners



I'd forgotten that. You're right, the ones I've seen/used generally had pretty thick lands on the edges, so not great for dovetailing.

I got a set of these for just that reason,

https://www.fine-tools.com/zinkenstemmeisen.html

they're beautiful tools, but I can't see any difference in the dovetails I make with these versus the dovetails I make with much cheaper western chisels. The white steel these are made from has no or very little chromium content, which I understand is why they're more rust prone; but I'm no metallurgist so that might all be nonsense. What I can vouch for is it took me several hours to fit the hoops. For many hobbyists just researching how to fit the hoops, and then doing it on a full set of chisels, might take up all their woodworking time for a month.

Most people will use their chisels as levers from time to time, beginners do it constantly. If you try to lever out chips with these chisels it will absolutely end in tears.

So, are they worth it? For 99% of woodworkers, and 100% of beginning hobbyists, the answer is a resounding no.


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## Beau (10 Nov 2017)

custard":ybdo61jc said:


> So, are they worth it? For 99% of woodworkers, and 100% of beginning hobbyists, the answer is a resounding no.



I love most of your posts Custard but thats a very dogmatic view that I cant see evidence for. I will give you the thick lands on the edges but the rest is misleading IMO and my Marples are hardly ideal for dovetailing 

As I say cant see fitting the hoops matter much. I have never bothered and they are more than up to the occasion bump of persuasion when needed.

Levering with an edge is surly bad practice and only useful when cutting mortices which with a bit of care can be done with them anyway

No rust on any or my chisels Japanese or otherwise. It's not that my workshop is dry as the machine beds often get a signs or rust on the beds.


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## RossJarvis (11 Nov 2017)

I have a couple of Japanese chisels, one for bashing and one for paring. They are miles better than my Bahco orange handled chisels for both jobs and a fair bit better than my Stanley's. They stay sharper much longer mainly. Yes they may chip a bit easier but they don't blunt or deform anywhere near as easy, the Bahcos will bend long before the Japs will chip!. The problem is that it's very difficult to compare like to like. Overall it may be possible to find European chisels better than Japanese ones, but not so easy to say why. Not all Japanese chisels are the same, nor are European ones. My Koyamaichi Ore Nomi can be bashed into oak for hours with a framing hammer and perform very well, I can't think of any European chisel which will perform as well. My cheap black handled Stanleys also keep a much better edge than my Bahcos. I'm sure the discussion could go on for ever. Look around and you can find some excellent chisels for all sorts of task, some may be English, some may be Japanese. It's possible that some Swede even made a decent chisel...once.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Nov 2017)

It's possible that some Swede even made a decent chisel...once :shock: - haven't you seen the prices A. E. Bergs fetch?


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## Beau (11 Nov 2017)

This thread got me wondering if I was alone in my liking of the Japanese chisels. Reading a few reviews I can see there are plenty who like them but when did they get so expensive in the UK? Only sensible looking priced ones I found other than unknown Ebay ones was these https://www.fine-tools.com/stemjap.html


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## thetyreman (11 Nov 2017)

depends (like anything) how it's made, if you get some steel that isn't mass manufactured and is hand made by a master blacksmith in a tiny village in japan, it's likely to be amazing quality steel, and the price will reflect that, I own a japanese kitchen knife and it's phenominally sharp, it's hand forged white paper steel and not cheap either but the edge it holds is sharper than anything else I have used so far.


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## Glynne (12 Nov 2017)

I started a thread some time ago and received pretty much the same comments - as in there is little if any advantage over western chisels.
On a purely technical basis, I'm sure this is true and there is another thread that is running that debating all of the technicalities.
However, for me woodwork is more than just pure technical work and if I like the feel of a tool then I'm more likely to be proficient with it (or less hamfisted). 
I have a beautiful set of LN chisels bought for me several years ago and use these most of the time but I've had a fascination with Japanese chisels for some time and so I bought several of the Japanese dovetail chisels that Custard refers to (which come with the hoops already fitted).
I absolutely love them. I only use them for dovetailing small pieces (I primarily make boxes) but I love the feel and balance of them.
So, did I really need them - No
Is there anything wrong with my LNs - No
I'm sure if you challenged people on many of their purchases, very few would come out purely on technical attributes alone. Certainly important, but for me not everything and so if you like the idea of Japanese chisels and you can afford them, then try a couple.
If you don't like them you can always sell them on but can I have first dibs if you do!


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## Beau (12 Nov 2017)

Glynne":dckt80by said:


> I started a thread some time ago and received pretty much the same comments - as in there is little if any advantage over western chisels.
> On a purely technical basis, I'm sure this is true and there is another thread that is running that debating all of the technicalities.
> However, for me woodwork is more than just pure technical work and if I like the feel of a tool then I'm more likely to be proficient with it (or less hamfisted).
> I have a beautiful set of LN chisels bought for me several years ago and use these most of the time but I've had a fascination with Japanese chisels for some time and so I bought several of the Japanese dovetail chisels that Custard refers to (which come with the hoops already fitted).
> ...




Good post Glynne

When I started this I had not realised how much they cost these days. When I first bought some they were maybe 50% more than Marples blue chip if that. Never advocating the top flight ones as my only expensive Japanese chisel was not much use as it was more like Custard describes ie very brittle and never gets used. I just use the lower end ones which still take a great edge and as you mention they just have a lovely balance which makes them a pleasure to use. I never viewed them as a "high end option" just a different one but clearly they are associated with expensive and I can now see why.


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## katellwood (12 Nov 2017)

Been reading this with interest 

This is what I've been using for a good few years now 







These were sold to me as temple-makers chisels (I do like the additional length for certain tasks)






I hit them with these 






for paring I use these 






this is excellent for lap dovetails 






for the narrower chisels a Kell honing guide is invaluable 

my original stanleys and marples which i purchased as an apprentice in the mid seventies are now generally used they few times I'm on site 

I've never had issues with the cutting edge chipping and they've cut numerous dovetails and other joints in some hard timbers 





















Personally I find them excellent.


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## Beau (12 Nov 2017)

Katellwood

You have clearly tried a few types of Japanese chisel. 
Any recommendations on brands and qualities for value conscious everyday use?


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## D_W (12 Nov 2017)

Really nice clean work there!

The late Jim Kingshott has a video that is sold here (and there, I'm guessing) where he said something along the lines of (paraphrased) -"i hate to admit it, but these are better than anything English"


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## katellwood (12 Nov 2017)

Mine were purchased from a company called 

"A Craftsmans Choice" which was part of Thanet Tool Supplies based in Ashford Kent. 

If I were purchasing today I would probably go to Matthew at Workshop Heaven or Axminster for a reasonably priced set 

Classic hand tools supply superior damascus steel chisels with multiple ura (the hollow in the back) but for most are prohibitively expensive

fine-tools.com also supply decent tools 

I would strongly suggest that they are for shop use only and not really suitable for site work.

mine take and keep a fine edge for a long time and i love using them.

funnily enough I got into these tools after reading Jim Kingshotts books and watching his video's at the same time as i decided i needed a set of chisels for shop use only.


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## Saer Llongau (12 Nov 2017)

Beau":2rh7hfov said:


> Any recommendations on brands and qualities for value conscious everyday use?


I'm just going to jump right in here. I'm not in the habit of introducing myself in introduction threads. 

If you're looking for high quality, every day use, working chisels I can highly recommend Kikuhiromaru "Sugutsukai Kiwami" chisels. 
These have a White Steel #1 cutting layer that's quite tenacious and can take a serious beating. The finish is not as refined as say Tasai or Kiyohisa but to me that
doesn't matter. All the time and money goes into what counts with these chisels and that's the steel. I've used these chisels for the last 12 years and I haven't 
regretted purchasing them one bit. If I remember correctly I paid something like 550 pounds for the 9, 12, 15, 18, 24 and 30mm chisels.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Nov 2017)

I'm afraid I'm rather more "value conscious" than that. :lol:


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## Harbo (13 Nov 2017)

I’ve got a small set of Blue Steel Matsumura chisels which got good write-ups in the American mags a few years ago. I use them in the workshop but for “site” work my Stanley 5001’s and 5002’s get used.

Rod


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## D_W (13 Nov 2017)

koyama-ichi are probably the lowest price "good" chisels, because their finish level is relatively minimal. They are appropriately hard, too. 

Iyoroi chisels are good in trim levels above basic, but they are functional even in basic trim (and a touch soft, which is fine, they're more like very good vintage steel that's a touch harder than vintage steel). 

When you get above something like koyamaichi, most of the rest of the money is in finish or overhead (for example, if you buy tasai chisels from japan woodworker in the US, you're getting a chisel just slightly better than koyamaichi and paying a whole bunch of links in the chain who all want their piece). 

If you're going low cost and using synthetic stones, blue steel isn't a bad idea. It's easier for someone to do well. 

1 or 2, white or blue, doesn't matter unless a chisel is defective. I've bought a lot of white 1 chisels, they're the display of a smiths skill because the range in hardening an tempering them is so narrow, but quite often they are a bit overhard. I've bought old ouchi in white 1 (very hard) as well as 3 kiyotada chisels. They're all still chisels, and I prefer them down a notch in hardness so that they're more compliant with natural stones. 

Separate note - I've also bought a set of old chisels off of buyee (japanese proxy for their auction site) for $80 for 10. The set is a mismatch, but they are as good as anything else I've used. I am a some days toolmaker, so setting up used chisels isn't a real issue. It probably took an hour to clean that set up, but it would've taken me a week if I just had basic sharpening stone (so not suggesting that for everyone). 

One other side note. Tomohito iida dumps chisel sets on ebay. If their lamination line isn't straight across *, then they're usually a reasonable deal. 

* usually, chisels with lamination lines not bent up at the sides are budget chisels, but there is one maker - konobu - who makes super high quality stuff without bending the lamination up on the sides.


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## Saer Llongau (13 Nov 2017)

D_W":pm1mj74e said:


> koyama-ichi are probably the lowest price "good" chisels, because their finish level is relatively minimal. They are appropriately hard, too.



I wouldn't call them appropriately hard, at least not compared to my Kikuhiromaru's. My chisels are almost full hardness, at least 65 on the Rockwell scale (I did ask them to make the chisels that hard). 
None of the blacksmiths make chisels that hard anymore.

Btw, they sharpen just fine on my Shiro Suita with lots of renge.


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## CStanford (13 Nov 2017)

British tools seem capable enough:

http://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.com/d ... mfurniture


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## D_W (13 Nov 2017)

Saer Llongau":1ed1goz9 said:


> D_W":1ed1goz9 said:
> 
> 
> > koyama-ichi are probably the lowest price "good" chisels, because their finish level is relatively minimal. They are appropriately hard, too.
> ...



Maybe they vary. I had a set of them at one point that were definitely full hardness. As were the older Ouchi chisels. I think they're all a little bit more practical if they're down a click or two, and the state of most vintage tools that I find would agree. The hardest vintage japanese irons and chisels that I've found have gone mostly unused because at 65 or above, they present a technical problem. they don't sharpen well on natural stones (and if your chisels sharpen well and in a reasonable time on a suita, and easily - not just the soft backer, but the steel itself, they're probably not 65 hardness), and they will have strange failures if sharpened on harsher synthetics. 

The hardest chisel that I have requires such care in sharpening and use that technically, it can last a long time in use, but in practice, it can be a bit of a nuisance (that is a kiyotada parer - chisels don't come harder, and if it didn't have value due to being kiyotada, I'd temper it). 

When you factor in the odd failure that happens here or there in the 65 hardness chisels, something two clicks back from there is more practical in the end. You can hone that something faster and chipout is much less common because white steel is much tougher at 62-63 than it is at 65.

I know that there are legendary tales about blacksmiths in japan, but none of the chisels are really anything better than just a bit better than the better english stuff. Beyond that, there are trade offs. Certainly, the Japanese have managed to keep making very clean blade steels, but even the very best were returned to blacksmiths all the time by professional users (especially temple makers who complain about anything that can't be used all day without sharpening, but that will also not tolerate some levering. That caused a lot of the better tokyo makers to quit catering to them - they wanted the impossible). 

At any rate, in the interest of actually getting work done with my chisels (which includes mortising planes), I sold my ouchis (which were the older harder ouchis) and kept some mokume iyoroi chisels that sharpen really well on a washita. It's a better system (and faster) than trying to live at the edge of everything. 

FWIW, I have about $15,000-$20,000 worth of natural stones right now (i sell them), so there aren't a lot of things that I haven't tried. I just can't argue with a chisel that can chop a plane mortise and be corrected in 15 strokes on a washita, and then chop another one. The ouchis would lose a corner here or there, they just weren't up to it. I can't say the same would be true for cheaper iyorois, I don't have any (the mokume chisels are overpriced for what they are - which is generally true across all lines - the pattern steel and stuff is hocum, but I found mine half price). For the ouchis, I paid the princely sum of $450 for 12 of them due to nobody having a clue about what they were at an auction called "MJD" here in the states. Nice chisels, but better for some dude who only chops dovetails in soft woods.


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## D_W (13 Nov 2017)

CStanford":2ovz9dq6 said:


> British tools seem capable enough:
> 
> http://www.ronaldphillipsantiques.com/d ... mfurniture



If it becomes a contest, I can't think of a whole lot that $1 chisels can't do. They need to be sharpened a little more often, but you don't cry if you drop one.


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## Saer Llongau (13 Nov 2017)

D_W":1d91lwj0 said:


> Maybe they vary. I had a set of them at one point that were definitely full hardness. As were the older Ouchi chisels. I think they're all a little bit more practical if they're down a click or two, and the state of most vintage tools that I find would agree. The hardest vintage japanese irons and chisels that I've found have gone mostly unused because at 65 or above, they present a technical problem. they don't sharpen well on natural stones (and if your chisels sharpen well and in a reasonable time on a suita, and easily - not just the soft backer, but the steel itself, they're probably not 65 hardness), and they will have strange failures if sharpened on harsher synthetics.


I should probably have mentioned my Suita needs some help from a nagura to get started. But still, it does sharpen the steel just fine. I have a family member in Japan who knows some stone (and tool) dealers and one of them selected and awesome Suita for me. It cost me a pretty penny but it's the fastest jnat I've ever used.



> The hardest chisel that I have requires such care in sharpening and use that technically, it can last a long time in use, but in practice, it can be a bit of a nuisance (that is a kiyotada parer - chisels don't come harder, and if it didn't have value due to being kiyotada, I'd temper it).
> 
> When you factor in the odd failure that happens here or there in the 65 hardness chisels, something two clicks back from there is more practical in the end. You can hone that something faster and chipout is much less common because white steel is much tougher at 62-63 than it is at 65.


I know many Japanese carpenters would balk at me for doing so (and many have  ) but I always maintain a slightly convex bevel on my chisels (Akio Tasai actually advised me to use a convex bevel years ago). A convex bevel makes the edge mechanically stronger and the durability is much higher. It also greatly reduces the chance of chipping.



> I know that there are legendary tales about blacksmiths in japan, but none of the chisels are really anything better than just a bit better than the better english stuff. Beyond that, there are trade offs. Certainly, the Japanese have managed to keep making very clean blade steels, but even the very best were returned to blacksmiths all the time by professional users (especially temple makers who complain about anything that can't be used all day without sharpening, but that will also not tolerate some levering. That caused a lot of the better tokyo makers to quit catering to them - they wanted the impossible).


Temple makers are a weird bunch in my experience :lol: 



> At any rate, in the interest of actually getting work done with my chisels (which includes mortising planes), I sold my ouchis (which were the older harder ouchis) and kept some mokume iyoroi chisels that sharpen really well on a washita. It's a better system (and faster) than trying to live at the edge of everything.
> 
> The ouchis would lose a corner here or there, they just weren't up to it. I can't say the same would be true for cheaper iyorois, I don't have any (the mokume chisels are overpriced for what they are - which is generally true across all lines - the pattern steel and stuff is hocum, but I found mine half price). For the ouchis, I paid the princely sum of $450 for 12 of them due to nobody having a clue about what they were at an auction called "MJD" here in the states. Nice chisels, but better for some dude who only chops dovetails in soft woods.


As a boat builder I work with hard, White Oak all the time and my Kikuhiromarus hold up just fine. All I know is I like them and they work for me. And that's all that matters in the end


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## D_W (13 Nov 2017)

The second and fourth statements, exactly right. If they make you happy in use, then that's all you need. I did like the ouchis, but I don't need two sets of the same thing, so I kept the ones that sharpen easily on my favorite stones. 

(re, the second - one thing that helps immensely with mortising is a very slight/tiny convex bevel right at the edge. It's also a bias that makes sure that you have your finest stone work done all the way to the very edge. I can't see anything wrong with it, and I'm sure people do it in japan, too. I'm not going to name names, but I've heard of a very high end dealer who prepares tools for a fee and he suggests the same. It got both benefits of strength and ensured sharpness - and if someone objects, you can ask them how well their tool is cutting while you're hammering away and they're grinding out a nick by hand) 

I have all kinds of thoughts on sharpening stones, but I'll leave them out. If you have a fast suita, it pretty much doesn't get any better.


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## Saer Llongau (13 Nov 2017)

D_W":1e8eiabz said:


> I have all kinds of thoughts on sharpening stones, but I'll leave them out. If you have a fast suita, it pretty much doesn't get any better.


To be honest, my knowledge of Japanese natural stones is rather limited. For this I rely entirely on my cousin and the dealers he knows. I can tell him exactly what hardness, aggressiveness and sharpening feeling I want and he takes it from there.


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## CStanford (13 Nov 2017)

D_W":204efrbe said:


> CStanford":204efrbe said:
> 
> 
> > British tools seem capable enough:
> ...



Yeah, maybe, but there's a middle way. Staying away from extremes is probably a good idea. Maybe go all out on one's inventory of material if money is burning a hole in a pocket.


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## D_W (13 Nov 2017)

CStanford":3djrwx08 said:


> D_W":3djrwx08 said:
> 
> 
> > CStanford":3djrwx08 said:
> ...



I think I hear hens.


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## CStanford (13 Nov 2017)

I suspect you think you hear lots of things...


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## Hornbeam (14 Nov 2017)

I think that using japanese or western style chisels really has any impact on the quality of work which you are able to do. 
It is as much a matter of personal preference
I did try japanese chisels about 15 years ago. They did not suit me as I found the handles awful and the blade while very good at edge holding to be quite rough and crude.
I also prefer to buy British where possible and use a selection of Sorby, Marples and a couple of older chisels which I have rehandled.
Reasons for buying new tools are quite varied, often it is based on whim and teh pleasure of new tools but dont expect new tools to make you better. Learning to sharpen and use your current tools properly, possibly spending the money on a course will pay more dividends in the future.
Ian


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## D_W (14 Nov 2017)

If you are the kind of person who likes to hold chisels by the blades, or turn quickly and use the chisel in hand to pare, they're definitely not going to suit that well. If you're the kind of person who likes to grip a handle and never the blade and walk a chisel to a line or pull it to a line, you might love them. Might not. 

The old English chisels are wonderful because they're not heavy in the blade and holding them by the handle seems intuitive. I've tried three sets of newer marples chisels and stanley 500x, but each set has had two duds in it (chisels that are almost unhardened - and I think that's got to be unusual). Someone has eventually begged them off of me. Finding older English chisels over here with boxwood handles and nice finishing has been less easy, but I have managed to do it. Paring chisels, too - English, definitely. They are 30 pounds over there and about 100 bucks each over here.


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## Hornbeam (14 Nov 2017)

As a former metallurgist and someone who has spent 30 years in the steel industry, the concept of dud chisels shouldnt really exist. However as a woodworker the differences can be quite extreme. I have 2 sets of chisels. My better set can be sharpened to a much better edge than my general joinery ones Even though some of them are identical makes. I havent bothered to take them in to work and hardness test them etc but just accept it. Agree with comments about holding by the blade/handle. Tried some lovely Lie Nielson chisels the other day. They were lovely but out of my price and te handles are just way to small for my mitts.


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## Saer Llongau (19 Nov 2017)

D_W":1makjx65 said:


> I know that there are legendary tales about blacksmiths in japan, but none of the chisels are really anything better than just a bit better than the better english stuff.



I'm going to disagree with you on this. I have used old Sorby and Ward chisels, some old EA Bergs and old Nooigedagts and my Kikuhiromarus are better than all of them. Sure, the don't like prying and levering but if you use them how they're intended to be used, with a gennou, and you make clean cuts they are precision instruments and the edge of my almost full hard chisels lasts almost an entire working day in hard White Oak. But like I said before I always maintain a slightly convex bevel for extra mechanical strength.


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## David C (20 Nov 2017)

I disagree too.

After reading Krenov's first book, I was keen to try one.

They are much harder than anything from the West. Usually between 62 to 64 Rockwell C scale. Most European chisels are around Rockwell 58, which is significantly softer, as the scale is not linear.

Over the years I built up a set of chopping chisels (Oire Nomi) and a set of long paring chisels. A number of different makers.

Cheap ones are best avoided as the grinding is often awful.

Best wishes,
David


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## D_W (20 Nov 2017)

Saer Llongau":1k853mxs said:


> D_W":1k853mxs said:
> 
> 
> > I know that there are legendary tales about blacksmiths in japan, but none of the chisels are really anything better than just a bit better than the better english stuff.
> ...



I think if you took the same level of care with the better western chisels, you'd find that they'd work with a rounded bevel with a few sharpenings per day. Not talking about 56 hardness hardware store chisels, but the high quality carbon steel chisels that are in the neighborhood of 60 hardness. 

Certainly something 65 hardness will last longer if you manage to keep it going straight into the wood that you're chiseling, but in reality, that's just a marginally better tool (unless it has geometric constraints - but sometimes those don't favor the japanese chisels. For example, an old ward chisel is a wonderful tenon thinner. Nomi, not so much. Stopping to reach for a japanese parer, same - worth the time for considerable effort of paring, but to trim a tenon? No thanks that's why if I was actually forced to keep one set of chisels, they'd be western). 

I don't call having to sharpen a couple of times per day a material difference, especially when a full sharpening on a japanese chisel is slower than sharpening a western chisel. 

Also, the less expensive chisels are often more crudely finished, but we have files, grinders and belt sanders and it's not hard to correct what you don't like. It certainly makes more money sense, because you will learn a quick lesson if you ever move on and want to sell a set of japanese chisels you bought new. Their residual value is about half of what you paid, and maybe only slightly more if you bought them really well.


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## David C (20 Nov 2017)

My sharpening time for Japanese chisels is exactly the same as for my European chisels!

I have no use for the single polished bevel.

It is clear that Japanese chisels are better when one works dense exotic timbers.

best wishes,
David


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## D_W (20 Nov 2017)

David C":2b6uyytv said:


> My sharpening time for Japanese chisels is exactly the same as for my European chisels!
> 
> I have no use for the single polished bevel.
> 
> ...



Mine differs because it's only about 30 seconds for a western chisel, and enough time needs to be spent on japanese chisels at some point to grind the bevel. 

However, I've found that japanese chisels that are a touch soft will sharpen fantastically on a single washita stone. It can't cut them deeply, so they are still blindingly sharp. I also deal natural stones (mostly japanese), so I've got just about everything on hand, but really like the washita - very practical and something pretty horrid has to happen to a japanese chisel for it to be too slow. It also preserves the visually rewarding single bevel as well as the look of a natural stone with stark contrast. 

I do use the japanese chisels when making plane mortises in beech. A mortise, 15 seconds on a washita, another mortise, 15 seconds on a washita. It's a really nice circle. I don't have many western chisels that are as stout and short, or I'd probably use them, too. (there is a conflict in my statement here about time, but mortising a plane is a different thing -it is an exercise in abuse, and chasing the finest edge and trying to keep it is not productive - a quick touch up to correct an edge is just fine. Smaller and finer joinery, that's not really the case, and the penalty is large if you chip the corner of the hardest chisels, like the older ouchis). 

What I've found over the years for exotics (again from plane making, mortising cocobolo or something particularly hard on the flat sawn face) is that most western chisels will give up at the standard angles, but an additional two or three degrees is all that's needed. At some point (angle steepness) in the exotics, chips fly instead of peeling, and some may find that a bit undesirable. I kind of like it in a plane mortise as those chips exit the mortise with no assistance, but it some of the chips can end up 20 feet away in a corner. 

Not debating that japanese chisels are wonderful - I love them all (western and japanese) unless they're improperly hardened or errantly made (i have broken a japanese mortise chisel that wasn't properly welded, and only in routine mortising of cherry). They can be a bit of an indulgence, and I've gone so far as to pick up three kiyotada chisels (two used). At the price most others are brought to us in the US new, I'm out. Too many links in the chain adding price, and thankfully some based in japan have noticed that and begun offering sets for reasonable prices direct shipped, but the makers are protective of their distribution networks, and there are a few over there looking to get "a little extra from gaijin", like a dealer who charges an additional 40% if you read their site in English instead of japanese (based on a plane I once bought for $350, but like other things, was $500 on the site in English). Anyway, not particularly relevant.


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## ED65 (21 Nov 2017)

Saer Llongau":1nfibzcj said:


> But like I said before I always maintain a slightly convex bevel for extra mechanical strength.


I'm extremely doubtful that a convex bevel is materially stronger than a flat bevel. Assuming the same angle at the edge and a modest curve to the bevel. 

Looked at theoretically it is easily seen how flat or convex is stronger than concave but even there edge failures are uncommon, as in: practically unheard of. With flat v. convex though, near the edge there's virtually no difference in fact and further back from this the shape of the steel is irrelevant (as regards directly contributing to strength at the edge)


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## ED65 (21 Nov 2017)

David C":1jp57ugs said:


> They are much harder than anything from the West. Usually between 62 to 64 Rockwell C scale. Most European chisels are around Rockwell 58, which is significantly softer, as the scale is not linear.


I know for someone like yourself this may not be something you'd care to do or have time to experiment with but a Western chisel can be re-hardened quite easily, with minimal kit, and then tempered to any degree desired. Or not at all if you want to see if it's usable at peak hardness or just too brittle to be practical.

Any chisel found to be too brittle can be re-tempered without starting the process from the beginning, so it's not too onerous to find the steel is crumbly and needs to be made a smidge softer for another try.



David C":1jp57ugs said:


> My sharpening time for Japanese chisels is exactly the same as for my European chisels!


Is this due to using a secondary or tertiary bevel?

And if I may ask, what is your normal re-honing time?


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## D_W (21 Nov 2017)

ED65":2oawtd7t said:


> Saer Llongau":2oawtd7t said:
> 
> 
> > But like I said before I always maintain a slightly convex bevel for extra mechanical strength.
> ...



The abuse failures you get in japanese chisels are things like corners disappearing, etc, at acute angles. You have a choice to either make the angle steep (you'll find people who put a 35 degree bevel on a japanese chisel with some regularity, and that's pretty harsh if you're trying to get the chisel through something). 

It's not that the convex bevel is stronger in this case, it's that the tiny convex bevel is added just to the very edge of the chisel to strengthen it and avoid the chipping failures that are common when you get a little too rough. (so it's not the same angle as a single bevel would've been) You can do the same thing with a western chisel if you get in some rough going. The reason it's enticing on japanese chisels is because the hardness makes their wear really slow if you can eliminate most of the chipping.

David C has several videos that do the same thing faceting microbevels rather than making a small convex bevel. The speed of the small convex touch up with a slow stone is undeniable, and the time that it saves in averting failures in hardwoods is just as worthwhile as it is microbeveling as David C does. The draw of the slow stone in making a rounded bevel is that you can make the bevel very small and eliminate it quickly with some medium stone bevel work if you want it gone (e.g., if you go back to working in softwoods after a piece that's much harder). 

I have talked to several professional users of japanese tools who advocate the same thing, both for bevel strength, and for insurance that the finish stone actually addresses the edge without a bunch of additional work.


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## Saer Llongau (21 Nov 2017)

D_W":2fq95er8 said:


> They can be a bit of an indulgence, and I've gone so far as to pick up three kiyotada chisels (two used). At the price most others are brought to us in the US new, I'm out. Too many links in the chain adding price, and thankfully some based in japan have noticed that and begun offering sets for reasonable prices direct shipped, but the makers are protective of their distribution networks, and there are a few over there looking to get "a little extra from gaijin", like a dealer who charges an additional 40% if you read their site in English instead of japanese (based on a plane I once bought for $350, but like other things, was $500 on the site in English). Anyway, not particularly relevant.



I bought my chisels directly form the factory through my cousin. The owner didn't want to do it at first because he didn't want to upset his distributors. My cousin gave him a message from me about how sad I was because his chisels weren't available in Europe (which was true). After a bit of convincing by my cousin he reluctantly agreed to sell them to me directly and that saved me quite a bit of money. Little did he know I was in Japan 2 months later :lol: 



ED65":2fq95er8 said:


> I'm extremely doubtful that a convex bevel is materially stronger than a flat bevel. Assuming the same angle at the edge and a modest curve to the bevel.



You can doubt it all you want but it doesn't change the fact that more material behind the edge=stronger edge. Any decent chisel blacksmith will tell you the same thing. My own experience in hard, dense, White Oak confirms this as well. 



D_W":2fq95er8 said:


> David C has several videos that do the same thing faceting microbevels rather than making a small convex bevel. The speed of the small convex touch up with a slow stone is undeniable, and the time that it saves in averting failures in hardwoods is just as worthwhile as it is microbeveling as David C does. The draw of the slow stone in making a rounded bevel is that you can make the bevel very small and eliminate it quickly with some medium stone bevel work if you want it gone (e.g., if you go back to working in softwoods after a piece that's much harder).
> 
> I have talked to several professional users of japanese tools who advocate the same thing, both for bevel strength, and for insurance that the finish stone actually addresses the edge without a bunch of additional work.



That's exactly how I do it, with a slower stone (a medium fine Aizu)


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## D_W (21 Nov 2017)

Saer Llongau":36tr8cxr said:


> That's exactly how I do it, with a slower stone (a medium fine Aizu)



It's not by chance that we both came to the same method and the same preference. It just works ideally and all of the talk about fragile edges goes away. Still slips through wood very well requires very little maintenance. I've adopted the same thing for my western chisels now. The primary bevel is who knows what, and the secondary bevel is a tiny rounded bevel done by a very slow and shallow cutting fine stone. 

As far as the distributors not going against the rules, my favorite saying over there is "the nail that sticks out will be hammered down". If they have an agreement with the agent and the agent is Japanese, it's serious business keeping your word.


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## Saer Llongau (21 Nov 2017)

D_W":3tjo6mss said:


> The primary bevel is who knows what, and the secondary bevel is a tiny rounded bevel done by a very slow and shallow cutting fine stone.



I have the main part of the bevel at something like 28 degrees and the rounded end part of the bevel is about 32 degrees. That gives me a chisel that's easy to chop with and a very tough edge.


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## ED65 (22 Nov 2017)

Saer Llongau":dnvkebqi said:


> ED65":dnvkebqi said:
> 
> 
> > I'm extremely doubtful that a convex bevel is materially stronger than a flat bevel. Assuming the same angle at the edge and a modest curve to the bevel.
> ...


Sorry I didn't express the source of my doubt clearly enough. It's not having more material behind the edge being stronger, it's _whether there is_. The following images should make it clear what I mean.

















At and near the edge there's no difference at all between A and B. Clearly C has a source of weakness, although often not significant in homogeneous steel.

I've tried to be fair in showing the genuine shape of the convex and concave bevels but these were drawn without references so apologies if the the geometry isn't quite right.


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## Saer Llongau (22 Nov 2017)

We can debate it until the end of time but the only thing that will convince you is to actually use a convex bevel yourself.

Edit: To stay with things Japanese, this arrived today. A Maruoyama Shiro Suita, the ultimate Suita. On the hard side of medium hardness and muddy. This is without a doubt the most pleasurable stone I've ever used.


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## ED65 (22 Nov 2017)

All my chisels have convex bevels and have done for the last few years. It's just that they're a completely different profile (as in the diagram) which is what I thought you were talking about from the initial reference.


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## Saer Llongau (22 Nov 2017)

My bevel is a normal flat bevel with a secondary convex bevel. I round over only the tip of the bevel so in that respect it's much like a secondary bevel. The difference is that by rounding it over I create more material behind the edge.


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## D_W (23 Nov 2017)

ED65":2ff41sf8 said:


> All my chisels have convex bevels and have done for the last few years. It's just that they're a completely different profile (as in the diagram) which is what I thought you were talking about from the initial reference.



It's the extra four degrees and not the shape. The convex bevel requires no additional devices, though, and for going through wood, the shape is more refined than a flat bevel. The cut has to be heavy before the refinement matters.


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## Saer Llongau (23 Nov 2017)

D_W":3oka646y said:


> The convex bevel requires no additional devices



That's exactly it. When you've done it enough times muscle memory kicks in and it becomes part of the normal sharpening routine.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (24 Nov 2017)

Just to stir things up a little  ....

I've used these cheapish Iyoroi chisels for about 20 years. They are hollow ground on a Tormek. 






Never chipped an edge in the local hardwood.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Beau (24 Nov 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Just to stir things up a little  ....
> 
> I've used these cheapish Iyoroi chisels for about 20 years. They are hollow ground on a Tormek.
> 
> ...



This is the sort of quality chisel I was on about when starting this thread. Cant say I hollow grind as my grinder is flat but sure it works fine but I suspect reason they dont chip is they are touch softer than the exotic Japanese chisels that seems to be what many associate with Japanese chisels.


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## D_W (24 Nov 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Just to stir things up a little  ....
> 
> I've used these cheapish Iyoroi chisels for about 20 years. They are hollow ground on a Tormek.
> 
> ...



I asked stu about these once, because I have a version that is just mokume, but is probably otherwise little different. In the US, they're derided as chisels that aren't worthy of having. In Japan, apparently they have the same kind of reputation as we put on an old stanley plane. They just work, they're not flashy, and not derided for being what they are.


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## AndyT (24 Nov 2017)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> They just work, they're not flashy, and not derided for being what they are.



That's a nice description, not just for tools, but for people to aspire to as well.
I could be quite happy with that!


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## Beau (24 Nov 2017)

D_W":3jnhk70s said:


> [ They just work, they're not flashy,.



Exactly.

I prefer the balance and have found the edge better than the few European chisels I have tried.
Not knocking other chisels but felt that the Japanese seem to be derided on here for what I saw as unfair reasons hence starting the thread. Clearly the high end ones are another kettle of fish and one I will leave to others.


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## D_W (24 Nov 2017)

Here is what the mokume version looks like:

https://s2.postimg.org/ix7hozz5l/20170806_165207.jpg

(I don't think there's much difference between these and the budget ones, except for the wrought iron. They are nice to sharpen on natural stones because the wrought gives way easily to the stones.). 

I remember getting these (they are available in general, but I wouldn't recommend them at regular price - I got them for half price or a little less), and someone chewed me out because "iyoroi's mokume isn't well done"

They're cheaper than LN's chisels (and better), who cares what the mokume looks like? I do like the softness, but would like it just as much if it was plain black. If one doesn't think the shape is refined, you can always grind them.


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## Saer Llongau (24 Nov 2017)

Iyoroi makes decent chisels if you're on a budget. I have two Iyoroi YXR7 HSS chisels because sometimes you need a chisel that can take a boat load of abuse.


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