# Anyone near me that can sharpen my tools?



## alanjparsons (9 Dec 2013)

Hiya, 

Managed to dink one of the ends of my tools last night #-o 

Anyone from Dorset that could sharpen it for me? happy to pay you for your time and skill! 

I am in Weymouth but can travel

Cheers


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## CHJ (9 Dec 2013)

Rather worried that you are asking such, do you not sharpen your turning tools on daily basis if not an hourly or even minute by minute dependant upon task?

Unsharp tools are a hazard and in my opinion an accident waiting to happen.

Or is it just that you are nervous about removing the extra metal to reform the damaged edge, if that's the case just take things slowly and give yourself time to correct any deviation from the preferred form as you go.


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## Paul.J (9 Dec 2013)

Have you got a grind stone and any form of sharpening jig to use yourself,or even free hand.What tools are they that need attention??
There is plenty of good info on the forum re sharpening and making your own jigs.
You've gotta get used to it one day or another and sooner the better.
Practice practice practice is the only way.


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## mind_the_goat (9 Dec 2013)

There's a sharpening workshop at Holton Heath, just outside of Wareham. I'll try to remember to take the number next time I drive past.


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## woodfarmer (9 Dec 2013)

Axminster tools have a tool sharpening service I believe.

They are in my good books today. the chuck jaws arrived (post free) 

Had I known earlier I would have had them go over my new tools so I could start straight away.


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## SteveF (9 Dec 2013)

do all axminster have sharpening service ?

Is it expensive?

Steve


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## Random Orbital Bob (9 Dec 2013)

alanjparsons. I'm a long way from you (near Reading) but if you're up my way I'd happily demonstrate my approach to keeping turning tools sharp. You will need to get your own setup but perhaps a little friendly direction would help your aim


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## SteveF (9 Dec 2013)

I am only guessing, but may have same problem

I have the tools ...unused

I know I gotta sharpen them before I use them ...but a live demo would be a confidence boost

Steve


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## Dalboy (9 Dec 2013)

Why send off tools as often they can take up to a week before you get them back many sharpening companies would have no idea of all the different grinds. When I am turning and not making wooden cars and rockers I just want to be able to turn when I want 

Like most have said get someone to show you if you can you can even make your own jigs to help here is one to start someone off.

http://www.turningtools.co.uk/widgets/grindingjig/wtsharpen.pdf








.


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## Rhossydd (9 Dec 2013)

SteveF":2dqx7s24 said:


> do all axminster have sharpening service ?
> Is it expensive?


Yes, I think they all offer this service, but I'm sure it's primarily aimed at re-grinding planer knives and TCT tooling. I think they'd look rather bemused if you turned up with a set of turning tools.

As most other people have said; If you take up woodturning you'll NEED to sharpen your own tools..... often. A bench grinder is almost as necessary as the lathe itself. It really doesn't take much effort to knock up some simple jigs to make sharpening quick, easy and repeatable.


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## nev (9 Dec 2013)

I can understand the desire to have someone show you how to do it, correction how they do it, I am sure my learning curve would have been a lot smoother if someone had actually shown me, in the flesh how to not only go about it, but the different profiles too. Too steep or shallow a bevel will do this or that and so on. 
Also if one is new to turning and starts with 2nd hand gouges, one may well assume that the tool is ground correctly and become very frustrated when one cannot get the tool to work as it should when you're sure you are doing as instructed. To help along these lines one can buy profiles to copy, for example .. http://www.henrytaylortools.co.uk/profi ... tools.html
A visit to a club in this instance is very worthwhile , even if you're an unsociable old so and so like me.


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## Happy amateur (9 Dec 2013)

SteveF

Join a club.
Three in your area
Mine www.orchard-woodturners.org.uk Obviously the best one. Milstead Village Hall Sittingbourne
www.gardenofenglandwoodturners.org meet at Faversham and
AWGB branch http://www.kentwoodturners.com/ Meet at The Priory Alylesford 

Fred Taylor
Orchard Woodturners Milstead


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## Dalboy (9 Dec 2013)

Stevef here are a couple of clubs near you may help you.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...MipD3-NcNe_DGgA&bvm=bv.57752919,d.d2k&cad=rja

http://www.kentwoodturners.com/find_us.html


Looks like Happy amateur just beat me to it


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## SteveF (9 Dec 2013)

sounds a plan

my tools are new so assume they are ground correctly
but also assume they are blunt

i have the tools \ grinder just don't want to bollo£$%% up a new set to find out i dont have a clue


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## Jacob (9 Dec 2013)

SteveF":1pubciz8 said:


> sounds a plan
> 
> my tools are new so assume they are ground correctly
> but also assume they are blunt
> ...


You won't have a clue until you have bollo£$%% up a new set a few times! It's all part of the learning curve.


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## Random Orbital Bob (9 Dec 2013)

+1 to Jacob's comments. Don't worry too much...they are metal after all! Most of us spend half our lives complaining about how slow the grind is to remove metal...so you're unlikely to do any real damage. Read around it, youtube...whatever to get the general idea then just have a go. Its the old adage.....no-one learned to ski without falling over a few (hundred) times


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## Mr Finch (9 Dec 2013)

I cheated a little and bought second hand gouges, fully aware that the first thing I was gonna do was re-grind them to different profiles to see which worked for me.

I am still using those gouges and haven't yet seen the need to buy brand new tools. I will have to soon but for now I am good.

As others have said, watch some of the videos on YouTube (start with mike waldt) and work from there.

Coll


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## McAldo (10 Dec 2013)

As someone very new to woodturning as well I can sympathize 
Visiting a few wooturning clubs helped me a lot. I have been to three actually, and members were so helpful and willing to give advice.
I also bought a second hand bowl gouge, and butchered it quite a bit to give it an Ellsworth grind. Same with my second hand skew. I gave it a domed bevel following the advice from a video, didn't liked the result and also spoiled the radius of the edge, so I ground it back to the normal concave bevel and fixed the radius too.
They are both really good steel and they came from a retiring woodturner who made them razor sharp before selling them. I felt a bit bad for having butchered them, the gouge was short to start with and now there is little left of the flute for the jig to clamp on. But hey, it's just steel, and I learned a lot.

If I were you, I'd shamelessly call a club up and ask if you could show up early at a meeting with your tools, and have someone give you a quick demonstration on how to sharpen.
Typically they'll have a demonstration on the day, so they might set up the grinder anyway.

I am really not the best person to give advice, as I know so little, but, based on my mistakes:
1) I see many experienced turners don't really measure the angle, just grind to what they need. But if, like me, you want a protractor to give you a starting point and knowing what you are starting with, get one in metal  Plastic doesn't like warm tools just out of the grinder..
2) Take a photo or two of your tools before you grind, it makes so much easier to rectify mistakes
3) At first, stick with the normal grind for the gouges, if that's what they come with. In the end, I am appreciating the Ellsworth grind, but it's still far from perfect and got me really frustrated at first. 
4) Many don't find it all that useful, but I like honing the tools often. The skew at least. The small diamond stones with handle work better than other types for me, and taking the tool rest off and using the banjo to support the butt of the tool helps a lot keeping it straight while honing.
5) If you want a jig but don't feel like making it yourself, there is a guy on ebay, a turner from cornwall, who makes them. A large platform and the jigs for normal grind and Ellsworth grind are around 50 or 60 pounds I think. They are not perfect, mine requires some shims to stay truly perpendicular to the wheel, but they work ok.

Obviously, some of the above suggestions might not be all that great after all, hopefully somebody experienced will correct me if that's the case, but that's what works for me right now.

Happy turning!

Aldo


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Dec 2013)

"I assume that as they are new, they are ground correctly" they may well be - for someone else. Trial and error will get them correctly ground for YOU.


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## mind_the_goat (12 Dec 2013)

Dorset Sharpening Services
Suite E3, Romany Centre Business Park Wareham Rd Holton Heath, Poole, Dorset BH16 6JL‎
07515 595609

More like a shed than Suite, but the sign says he can 'sharpen almost anything', just in case someone takes in a tub of ice cream I guess.


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## Robbo3 (13 Dec 2013)

I posted this in another reply but it's all good basic information.

Most beginners benefit from using a jig to sharpen bowl & spindle gouges. A basic one is fairly easy to make & to use:
- viewtopic.php?t=4443
- viewtopic.php?t=5360
or

Cap'n Eddie Castelin - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i9RDnJHz9g
&

probably the original - the Ellsworth jig (opens as a PDF file which can be saved to your PC)
- http://www2.woodcraft.com/PDF/77B61.pdf

As well as the gouge holder, using this system with the tool handle resting in the socket of the sliding base & the length suitably adjusted, you can also sharpen any tool that requires a straight across grind, evenly & consistantly eg parting tools, narrow skews, spindle roughing gouges, even bowl gouges.

Lots of good info to help you understand the shape of the tool (bottom of page)
- http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm
- bowl-gouge-sharpening-t42517.html

--
Also,
About 3 years ago I knocked up one of the home made holders for a friend who was too scared to sharpen his gouges. In my haste I got something wrong & it had a pronounced wobble but I used it to give him a demo anyway.
He took it home with the intention of copying it. Instead he used a load of glue to fix the wobble & is still using it today.

The norm is to let the gouge project 2" from the holder, adjust the sliding base to match the bevel already ground (using a marker pen on the bevel helps) then grind gently, using little more than the weight of the tool. The shape of the finished grind is controlled by the operator spending more or less time on particular areas - the nose generally needing less work than the sides.

HTH


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## Tazmaniandevil (13 Dec 2013)

I made the wooden jig to begin with and had really good success with it. I have since copied the Cap'n Eddie jig with less than a tenner's worth of square tube from B&Q. The baskets are fairly rubbish but do the job. I will re-make those in the new year though. I use the belt sander to keep the edge on my skew chisels with a domed bevel. I find this easier to use, so horses for courses. 
As already mentioned, you will eventually get a grind that works for _you_ - we are all different and stance etc. makes a difference to whether a particular grind is right for your needs.
One of these is a good investment, or you can make one from sheet metal if you can cut it accurately enough.

I would love to be able to sharpen free hand, but as my turning is confined to a few hours at the weekend I don't get enough practice.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

Tazmaniandevil":3jqbxq5e said:


> ....
> I would love to be able to sharpen free hand, but as my turning is confined to a few hours at the weekend I don't get enough practice.


OK I know I've said it many times - but if you are short of time then freehand is the way. 
Modern turners seem to have been talked into incredibly complex fiddling with jigs. Particularly difficult bearing in mind the many variations possible with turning tools and sharpening kit.
It doesn't matter if you get it wrong - any sharp edge will cut but with time you will find your own way. 
If you are reluctant to lose the shape of a newly bought chisel you could photograph it first - freehand sharpening is a visual thing. No need to give up at the first hurdle and assume you can't do it.

Using tools and sharpening them are inseparable parts of the same task. If you are going to send them away as per our OP you might as well send away your bits of wood at the same time and get them turned for you.


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## Rhossydd (13 Dec 2013)

Jacob":14phsbmv said:


> ....but with time


And there's the problem. Most of us don't have unlimited time and resources, so need a little help to make sure we make the best out of what we've got.


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## Tazmaniandevil (13 Dec 2013)

Jacob":usm7lt43 said:


> OK I know I've said it many times - but if you are short of time then freehand is the way.
> Modern turners seem to have been talked into incredibly complex fiddling with jigs. Particularly difficult bearing in mind the many variations possible with turning tools and sharpening kit.


My jig has pre-set positions for my tools which are very quickly set, and I know I get a consistent grind every single time. I know I can take a few seconds to slip the tool in the holder, adjust the jig and then a few rubs will give me the edge I need. I have wasted too many tools trying to sharpen free-hand to make me want to keep trying. I simply can't afford to keep replacing tools every few months.
Just my personal experience y'understand.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

Yebbut sharpening a turning tool (ideally against a flat disc or belt sander etc) is very similar to the action of turning itself. If you can do one you can surely do the other.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Dec 2013)

Just to jump in here (possibly before a full blown sharpening "debate" ensues). In a way....you're both right ie both using jigs and by hand are right. I think the fundamental difference between them is confidence. The jigs give less experienced crafts-people the confidence to know the grind will turn out right...and for that they lose some money and some time. But they gain the certainty they need. For the more confident and likely more experienced, the freehand approach poses no threat, holds no fear.

Using that assumption I would suggest new users use a jig while they build that confidence, get to know the material, the grinder etc and then start to try freehand as their confidence grows. Jigs and sharpening gadgets can be expensive so the freehand approach is desirable...but not without that all important confidence.

So my ten penneth is that both approaches have their merits...its the timing that's important (ie when confidence is achieved).

There...hows that for sitting so squarely on the fence I've got splinters up my a** :=)


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## Rhossydd (13 Dec 2013)

Jacob":2n3z969c said:


> sharpening a turning tool is very similar to the action of turning itself.


It isn't in several ways.

As a relative newcomer here, initially I couldn't understand why sharpening was a contentious subject. Now I've seen comments like this so often I can see why.


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## Rhossydd (13 Dec 2013)

Random Orbital Bob":ja9yqlzl said:


> I think the fundamental difference between them is confidence. The jigs give less experienced crafts-people the confidence to know the grind will turn out right...and for that they lose some money and some time.


Absolutely right Bob.
But "lose some money and some time" ?? Quite probably not. You can waste a lot more time and money trying to work out how to turn and sharpen tools by trial and error.

If you go on a woodturning course you're given a sharp correctly ground turning tool to start with, then learn to turn.


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## morfa (13 Dec 2013)

Personally, as someone also new to woodworking, I've found sharpening to be really easy. Even with a cheap oilstone I've always been able to get my tools to the point where I can shave a few hairs off the back of my hand.

I'd just give it ago ('freehand') and you'll find that it's very easy. If you're that worried, buy a cheap chisel or something to practice on. There's loads of videos out there as well.

Also making a jig isn't hard to do, it's a fairly basic woodworking skill, so make a few jigs (some might not work) but that's how you learn.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

The point is - if people didn't have the distraction of jigs and kit but really wanted to turn, they'd just pick up sharpening techniques quickly and easily in a very short time.
I could be wrong here but I don't think turners bothered with sharpening jigs say 40 years ago. It wasn't a problem then, it isn't now.
Turners also have the mechanics already in place - a sanding disc on (outboard end of spindle< edit) is all you need.


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## Tazmaniandevil (13 Dec 2013)

Jacob":3qycg3ot said:


> Yebbut sharpening a turning tool (ideally against a flat disc or belt sander etc) is very similar to the action of turning itself. If you can do one you can surely do the other.


Who said I could do either? My turning isn't great either....  
Mostly it is gouges with me. I sharpen straight tools pretty much freehand until I damage the pointy bit through my own stupidity. Then it is into the jig and re-grind to my starting point again.
I simply do not trust myself to sharpen freehand all the time.

I do agree that with enough time and money I probably could do a passable job at sharpening. I grind/sharpen other woodworking tools by eye, but then I was taught how to do so at school before they took such skills out of the curriculum. I daresay if I was given the same level of tuition on turning tools I would be able to manage quite well.

I'm with Bob on the fence really. I'm not looking to argue over who is right and who is wrong. I'm just putting forward my own personal experience of sharpening tools, and what works for me. When I first started turning, I very quickly became frustrated because the edge on the tools simply wasn't sharp enough & I spent more time sanding than turning. (not to mention the number of catches and dig-ins) Had I not built the jigs, I may well have thrown in the towel.


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## Rhossydd (13 Dec 2013)

Jacob":1c2qujx1 said:


> I could be wrong here but I don't think turners bothered with sharpening jigs say 40 years ago.


I started turning nearly thirty years ago now and using jigs for sharpening was standard then. They were more often home made, but building a sharpening jig was one of the first things I did when I started turning.
In the 21st century there are plenty of great jigs that offer improved accuracy and a wider range of options easily available that save a lot of time and effort, it's called progress.


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## Paul.J (13 Dec 2013)

I have had a few of the jigs on the market along with the grinders available in my short time at turning,and at the moment i have the Sorby Pro Edge,and by using this i have gone back to free hand sharpening as it is quicker for me by using the fine belt,just takes seconds.
I do however use the jig i have to re-shape the bowl gouge mainly the rest are all done free hand and always have been.
I was taught how to sharpen most woodwork tools at school and then when i was an apprentice so if you don't have this knowledge to start with it can be a little daunting i suppose??


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## Spindle (13 Dec 2013)

Hi

My advice to the OP would be to maintain the profiles that you currently have on your new tools - these may not be the best profiles for you, but at the moment you have no way of determining this.

If cash is tight, (when isn't it?), knock up some jigs out of MDF - an adjustable grinding rest will accommodate scrapers, parting tools, skews and roughing gouges. If you wish to maintain a fingernail type profile on gouges you will need another jig, but again it's quite easy to knock one up at home.

The above two aids will afford you the confidence to sharpen your tools whilst maintaining their profiles. As time goes on and you gain experience you can begin modifying the profiles to see if they suit you by 'informed' trial and error.

As your turning skills develop you may decide to adopt a freehand approach to sharpening or continue to use jigs - either way your initial forays into turning will have been aided by using tooling ground to sound basic principals and maintained at those profiles for long enough to learn the basics of tool use / presentation.

If you haven't already got this I strongly suggest putting it on your Christmas list:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Woodturning-Fou ... ith+rowley

Regards Mick


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## chipmunk (13 Dec 2013)

I'm not sure that I completely buy Jacob's point about the skills being the same as turning, because in turning we're often using slicing cuts whereas the grinding is usually face on, but the two skills certainly need to go hand in hand. We all know it's impossible to turn well without sharp tools and as Chas says it's also dangerous.

For what it's worth I was forced down the freehand sharpening route due to two things - lack of cash for a jig and a preference to spend my early free time turning rather than researching/making sharpening jigs. 

Early on I was lucky enough to go to a demo by Gary Rance who freehand grinds all his tools and always has. I know that many pros use jigs these days but there are plenty who don't. Anyway at the demo I saw Gary sharpening finger nail profile gouges - not flat on the grinder platform, but by sliding the gouge up the wheel and the handle out at the side to profile the wings and bringing the gouge down straight to sharpen the tip in the middle and the penny dropped. That was 11 years ago and I've never looked back and have still got all of my original gouges and even my very first 3/8" spindle gouge has some flute left :wink: 

I'm not sure I'd say I enjoy sharpening but it isn't a huge chore. 

I've read sorts of stuff about people being afraid to waste steel and I can honestly say that contrary to popular rumour it doesn't waste steel to get the grind right. Try grinding the tool and see if it cuts ok, and if it does use it until it need resharpening and if it doesn't try regrinding the dull part and try again - repeat ad infinitum. 

Just use a light touch on a well balanced and deglazed wheel and you won't go far wrong. I used a grey wheel for ages and provided you keep it dressed and don't let things get too hot it'll be fine.

The nice thing about the sliding up the wheel method is that you can create convex grinds such as Eli Avisera puts on his skews, or grind away the heels on gouges without readjusting any jigs. You can always use the platform for scrapers which I do because I like to diamond hone them across the hollow grind to get them really sharp. I also use a diamond slip on the inside of the flutes of spindle gouges to remove the burr and I also diamond hone my skews in between grinds and to get them extra sharp.

I hope this helps
Jon


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## Rhossydd (13 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":3lc4xkno said:


> lack of cash for a jig


Not sure I get this. It only takes some scarps of wood to make a usable jig. As woodworkers we're all about making things, why should a sharpening jig be any different ?
My jigs took maybe an hour to make and in practice cost nothing. I'm still using them thirty years on. Hardly a wasted hour.


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## chipmunk (13 Dec 2013)

Rhossydd":15qo6n7k said:


> chipmunk":15qo6n7k said:
> 
> 
> > lack of cash for a jig
> ...



Well there was an "and..." and an implied commercial before the jig i.e. "lack of cash for a [commercial] jig and a preference to spend my early free time turning rather than researching/making sharpening jigs."

You were perhaps in possession of the knowledge what jig to make and how to make it - I don't think I was. I was a member of a club and most of the guys helping the novices didn't use or advocate sharpening jigs. Just the way it went. 

...but I suppose 20-20 hindsight is a wonderful thing and I know now that I probably could have got away with a very simple homemade jig but then I wouldn't have learned to do without it. 

So, do I regret my decision? No I don't think I do. 

Do I wish I sometimes had a commercial jig? If I'm honest, yes - but only to see what I'm missing.

HTH
Jon


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## Rhossydd (13 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":19brezm2 said:


> You were perhaps in possession of the knowledge what jig to make and how to make it


Not much of a clue here when I started. I'd read some books and attended a short course.
Making a jig to help grind scrapers, for instance, isn't too hard to work out for yourself really.
The complex mystique that seems to be prevalent on exotic shapes for bowls gauges wasn't around so much then either. A fixed angle worked just fine.

In some ways the wealth of information now available on the internet doesn't always serve novices as well as just reading one or two good books about the basics.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":3hi5rcud said:


> I'm not sure that I completely buy Jacob's point about the skills being the same as turning, because in turning we're often using slicing cuts whereas the grinding is usually face on, but the two skills certainly need to go hand in hand. .....


I meant similar in terms of hand and eye skills. Repeating a sharpening shape freehand is not unlike repeating a turned knob frinstance, in that it's difficult at first but after a just few goes and a few mistakes they all come out the same (or near enough).


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## chipmunk (13 Dec 2013)

Rhossydd":j6owg3lq said:


> Making a jig to help grind scrapers, for instance, isn't too hard to work out for yourself really.
> The complex mystique that seems to be prevalent on exotic shapes for bowls gauges wasn't around so much then either. A fixed angle worked just fine.



I agree with you about simple grinds but I suppose I thought by jigs you were referring to the exotic Elsworth/Celtic swept back gouge jigs.

It makes me wonder what, other than a flat grinder platform, would you want for scrapers and straight-across ground bowl gouges anyway? 

I've never seen any advantage of grinding skews, parting tools, straight across bowl gouges or scrapers any other way than on a flat platform and I have a homemade one of those. I don't think I class this as a jig but others perhaps do?

Jon


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## CHJ (13 Dec 2013)

Jacob":1o0plo4k said:


> .......I could be wrong here but I don't think turners bothered with sharpening jigs say 40 years ago. It wasn't a problem then, it isn't now.


 
Neither did you have all the benefits now available as standard in most current cars but that does not mean that it's sensible to ignore them and continue to live in the past. 



Jacob":1o0plo4k said:


> .......Turners also have the mechanics already in place - *a sanding disc on a tailstock is all you need*.


 A very astute observation, I'd like to see how you manage to achieve a working system centred around a spinning tailstock. 

Perhaps you would care to partake in the 2014 turning challenges *Jacob* and provide some inspiration and examples for us budding turners to emulate, especially if you can find time to do a few WIP sets, after all the whole ethos of UKW is to try and help folks achieve better finished pieces with their current skills and what they have to hand, it might well prove more rewarding for you than being downright argumentative just for the sake of it and making silly statements as quoted above.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

CHJ":1ttys09f said:


> ......
> 
> 
> Jacob":1ttys09f said:
> ...


Faceplate, ply disc, sandpaper, tool rest. Works fine. Nothing you can't sharpen (almost). There are better systems of course, but that is a good starting point. Nothing silly about it at all and you don't have to buy any extra kit..


> ... the whole ethos of UKW is to try and help folks achieve better finished pieces with their current skills and what they have to hand, it might well prove more rewarding for you than being downright argumentative just for the sake of it and making silly statements as quoted above.


I am trying to suggest that things are not as difficult as they are made out to be and the best way to improve current skills is to get stuck in and see what happens, rather than worrying endlessly about bits of kit and various armchair theories. Our OP should have a go and not send his tools off for sharpening. I think this is good advice.

PS forgot to add - ply disc outboard end of spindle with Autosol is brilliant for polishing edges on the flat, or inside gouges on the edge rounded off.


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## Rhossydd (13 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":xh8hpy8b said:


> I don't think I class this as a jig but others perhaps do?


IMHO anything that guides a tool (or work piece) to eliminate any potential errors of hand guidance ought to count as a 'jig' however simple.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2013)

PS just realised that where I say "tailstock" I actually mean the other end of the spindle whatever it's called*. I'll edit them!

*spindle outboard end?


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## CHJ (13 Dec 2013)

Jacob":2xk7ock3 said:


> .......Turners also have the mechanics already in place - *a sanding disc on a tailstock is all you need*.


Perhaps you should re-read your post that I quoted and highlighted in bold and you will see the Silly part of you statement.

Stopping and thinking about what you are saying in the first place rather than hastening to have an input might result in a better presentation of useful information first time around than proffering a totally different set of advise and a justification of your reasoning having been challenged.


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## KimG (13 Dec 2013)

A jig is a most useful addition to a turners workshop, making an accurate fingernail grind freehand and ONLY removing the least amount of material is something that many would find challenging, sure you can sharpen your gouge OK, but how many passes are you making, all those thousands of an inch extra each time soon add up to a new gouge being required a lot quicker than if you are making the very precise, accurate and parsimonious little grinds that a jig allows, plus you will always have a repeatable bevel, something that is rare in hand sharpened tools even by skilled craftsmen. Many of the top turners use jigs for precisely these reasons, no one should feel inferior or lacking in skill for using a jig, there is a lot of macho puff made of freehand sharpening, it's all cobblers, it's the end result that matters, a sharp tool, not how you get it.


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## chipmunk (16 Dec 2013)

This may seem quite a radical suggestion and I hope it isn't hijacking the thread but are swept back and fingernail profiles something that newcomers to turning really need to get started? 

I know that all of the pro's advocate the swept back grind and the pull-cut is really nice for shifting material really quickly but after the valid comments by Rhossydd I'm minded to think that the straight-across grind on bowl gouges and spindle gouges needs no messing about or expensive jigs and so is probably the way to go initially. After all most gouges come this way from the factory anyway.

I acknowledge what Kim says, I'm not sure I agree entirely, but is it really a good idea to recommend that a newbie should go out and buy a lathe, tools, a grinder and a sharpening jig before they can even start turning properly? 

I know that jigs can be made but I'd argue that the geometry and set-up isn't as easy as falling off a log either.

It reminds me of the late great Bert Marsh who ground all of his cutting edges at about 45 degrees and used the straight across grind on all of his bowl gouges.

Jon


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## nev (16 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":1iz86qwe said:


> ....
> It reminds me of the late great Bert Marsh who ground all of his cutting edges at about 45 degrees and used the straight across grind on all of his bowl gouges.
> 
> Jon



Glad its not just me then.
My roughing gouge, flat scraper, round scraper and bowl gouges are all ground at the same angle and all sharpened using the tilted platform. Seems to work for me


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## RogerP (16 Dec 2013)

KimG":3ubyiwcm said:


> ............, making an accurate fingernail grind freehand and ONLY removing the least amount of material is something that many would find challenging,............


 Years ago I more-or-less got the hang of it by looking at a commercial gouge an practising with a length of wooden dowel on my disc sander the movements needed to reproduce the grind. 

That was a long time ago, and although back then I could do a tolerable job, I'd probably struggle now


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## CHJ (16 Dec 2013)

KimG":2b9rok0o said:


> ............, making an accurate fingernail grind freehand and ONLY removing the least amount of material is something that many would find challenging,............



I find it far quicker to use a jig and avoid the inevitable mistake that will happen sooner or later in the middle of a project if I have a moments inattention freehand grinding my bowl gouges.

I see it most confusing for beginners that they see established turners demonstrating their art with exotically ground swept back gouges using a technique which they have spent several years refining and gaining experience enough to know when and when not to apply the method.
Said beginner spends no end of time and possible expense to achieve the same tool form only to end up with numerous catches and disasters because they have not appreciated how much the technique relied on the operators hand control rather than the natural rubbing bevel of the gouge that they have had drummed into them.

The same goes for wood used in demonstrations, where said demonstrator uses some nice even grained lime or similar, even green wood to throw shavings over their shoulder. The beginner on attempting similar gets frustrated because his shop bought blank of chestnut or oak leads him to believe he will never master the technique.


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## KimG (16 Dec 2013)

While I can appreciate that many tools only require a basic adjustable platform for a straightforward 45 degree (or whatever) grind, even a begginer will sooner or later want to sharpen a spindle gouge that has to have a fingernail grind pattern in order to function, so even discounting the more "exotic" grinds used on bowl gouges, the need for accurate and economic sharpening still exists even for him. Sure a good jig is an additional expense, but like a good chuck or any of the other bits of kit aside from a lathe, you only have to buy it once and it will serve well for years.

My main point though was not to say you should have a jig, but that there is no superiority of the hand sharpened tool over the one sharpened in a jig, nor of the people doing the sharpening, but there is a certain elite-ism that is often expressed in favour of the freehand sharpener to the detriment of those who use jigs, and frankly it's very silly, that is what I was trying to counter, in order that no one should feel that they are somehow lacking because they rely on a jig to accomplish the task.


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## chipmunk (16 Dec 2013)

KimG":3lf61vl8 said:


> ...even a begginer will sooner or later want to sharpen a spindle gouge that has to have a fingernail grind pattern * in order to function*...


 ...Well I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? 

I don't want anyone to run away with the idea that I'm a freehand-sharpening zealot on a day out from the Hand Tools forum! :wink: :wink: 

I'm simply trying to point out that it really isn't necessary for a newbie to mortgage themselves to the hilt in order to take up woodturning as a hobby and to create good well finished items of turnery. In the list of priority purchases a sharpening jig is clearly not in equal first place with a decent set of turning tools, a lathe and a grinder - that's all.

For what it's worth here's Cindy Drozda, and whether she is being elitist or not I'll leave it to you to decide, sharpening one of her signature spindle gouges and other gouges on a platform rest rather than using a gouge jig.... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_KDSIDAtGc

Jon


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":28weq4ly said:


> KimG":28weq4ly said:
> 
> 
> > ...even a begginer will sooner or later want to sharpen a spindle gouge that has to have a fingernail grind pattern * in order to function*...
> ...


Good simple stuff and a clear explanation. Not difficult, not elitist, not macho, not bullsh|t.
She name drops the platform brand a bit too much, as any old bit of ply would do. Technically this is surely no more difficult than the actual turning, and it involves repeating the same actions, which means you get it spot on after a bit of practice.
Who needs a jig? Still less a jig for each tool - could involve more expenditure on jigs than the tools themselves.


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## Spindle (16 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":17cvaoff said:


> In the list of priority purchases a sharpening jig is clearly not in equal first place with a decent set of turning tools, a lathe and a grinder - that's all.



Hi

I think this statement is misleading.

One of the most important things a beginner needs to achieve is to be able to sharpen tools to a repeatable profile whilst he learns the basics of tool presentation and use. In order to do this some form of jig will almost certainly be required, (I don't suppose many of us opted to sharpen freehand from the outset). As I said earlier, the most useful jig is an adjustable grinding rest, supplemented by a fingernail jig if the user wishes to use this profile on gouges. Both of these jigs are easily made, do not have to cost very much and I would certainly put them on a par with the lathe, grinder and tools as turning essentials for any beginner.

Regards Mick


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## chipmunk (16 Dec 2013)

Spindle":31pcdsrf said:


> chipmunk":31pcdsrf said:
> 
> 
> > In the list of priority purchases a sharpening jig is clearly not in equal first place with a decent set of turning tools, a lathe and a grinder - that's all.
> ...



Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that and move on then.
Jon


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## wizard (16 Dec 2013)

Why can’t someone near him just sharpen his tools


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2013)

Spindle":3kg8zar6 said:


> ......, (I don't suppose many of us opted to sharpen freehand from the outset). .....


Not nowadays obviously. 
But when I first had a go at school (about 1956 perhaps :shock: ) no mention was ever made of jigs and we sharpened everything freehand (big dash for the grind-wheel if the teacher was out of the room!)
That's what everybody opted to do. Jigs weren't on the agenda. Nor were they later on when I did a bit of training (not turning). I only realised the world had gone jig crazy when I started looking at woodwork forums on the net. 
It's very recent.


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## Rhossydd (16 Dec 2013)

Jacob":2799aw1i said:


> It's very recent.


That's the rouble with progress. Just when you get used to that horse and cart someone invents a horseless carriage and everyone starts to want one.
What's the world coming to ?


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2013)

Rhossydd":21gz3hp9 said:



> Jacob":21gz3hp9 said:
> 
> 
> > It's very recent.
> ...


Yes I see what you mean. Like sliced bread. Progress! Onwards and upwards. But why are people turning anyway? It's much simpler to buy the stuff or get somebody else to do it.


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## bellringer (16 Dec 2013)

I find that using a jig make the grind much more repeatable which is good i also you loss less metal


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## JustBen (16 Dec 2013)

You lot don't 'arf waffle on.

If you spent as much time doing woodworking as you do debating woodworking techniques the gallery on here would be rammed with fine woodworking exhibits.
Instead, it's full of cobwebs.

Get a grip!


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## Rhossydd (16 Dec 2013)

Jacob":1umvkd2r said:


> But why are people turning anyway?


Because they like shaping WOOD, if they liked shaping metal they'd be metal workers.

You've really made your point here quite clear Jacob, you just become a bore by dragging out so much.


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## bellringer (16 Dec 2013)

How has this dragged out so long


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## Random Orbital Bob (16 Dec 2013)

In the end its about choice isn't it. This myth that there is ONE correct way is what causes all the trouble. The different options exist so people can find the approach that works for them. No-one needs to stress about dogma. We're lucky enough to live in a very tolerant society in which there is stacks of room for those who value traditional approaches but also those who enjoy all the cutting edge (apologies for the pun) that technology can offer.

It's not right or wrong...left or right...just choice. Like sharpening, this debate is not dualistic....I don't really understand why people stress so much about a particular viewpoint.


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## blackrodd (16 Dec 2013)

wizard":3kab52b7 said:


> Why can’t someone near him just sharpen his tools



Well said! 
It's a pity there is no club nearby to help Him out with the grinding/sharpening. I must say. 
Interesting video, simples! I didn't go much on the ladies chinese safety boots in the video nor the blue colour that the gouge was sporting, first sign of burning the temper from the steel, wheel going too fast for a 120 grit, i guess.
Nobody seems to use water to cool the steel any more, that's what the little trough is for on the front of our grinder. 
Regards Rodders


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## chipmunk (17 Dec 2013)

blackrodd":cgxkx3e4 said:


> wizard":cgxkx3e4 said:
> 
> 
> > Why can’t someone near him just sharpen his tools
> ...



_Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime._

Jon


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## Paul.J (17 Dec 2013)

All this and no response from the OP??


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## Lons (17 Dec 2013)

Paul.J":2be4aep6 said:


> All this and no response from the OP??



Probably shellshocked!

1 page of advice / 4 pages of arguments :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## bugbear (17 Dec 2013)

Lons":2vc0wkkh said:


> Paul.J":2vc0wkkh said:
> 
> 
> > All this and no response from the OP??
> ...



Bit like going into a new pub for a drink, and you find all the regulars
are having a shouting match, and a couple of them take time out
from shouting at each other to tell you you're drinking the wrong beer...

Not a pub you'll bother going back to.

BugBear


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## chipmunk (17 Dec 2013)

bugbear":2qwfmg8r said:


> Lons":2qwfmg8r said:
> 
> 
> > Paul.J":2qwfmg8r said:
> ...



Just like the Hand Tools forum eh? Home from home! :wink: :wink:


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