# No. 4 Plane Conversion to a Scraper



## rxh (26 Jan 2015)

This is an experiment to make a scraper plane using a Stanley No. 4 as the basis. The blade is held against a metal support which is bolted to the frog mounting holes in the casting. I made the parts and temporarily fitted them to my No. 4 to satisfy myself that the idea would work. Then I bought a No. 4 body from a well known auction site, transferred the parts to it together with new handles that I had made. The blade is made of 1/8" thick O1 steel, bevelled at 45 degrees and inclined forward at 20 degrees from vertical. The usual style of front knob would be no good because the forward leaning blade would get in the way of a proper grip. I had to open up the mouth a little to allow good clearance for shavings. The central screw is first tightened to hold the blade and then the two small screws are tightened to provide additional security against the blade rotating in use. The completed plane works well.


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## marcros (26 Jan 2015)

That looks ridiculously nice, as usual!


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## n0legs (26 Jan 2015)

I like it  
What I particularly like is the use of an old tool and a few hours of your time to create a new tool =D> 
Lovely handles by the way.


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## condeesteso (27 Jan 2015)

A brilliant idea, there are plenty of old No4s around and you don't even need a complete one! Very smart.
I'll own up - I've had a go with this plane, comparing it with Richard's small scraper plane and his Lie Nielsen. Both the small one and the LN are excellent - I think the No4 is very close indeed but I suspect a bit of time on the sole may pay dividends as it wasn't quite flat - not at all unusual in old No4s. That's just a guess but might be worth a go.
Very fine execution as usual Richard... whatever next?


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## AndyT (27 Jan 2015)

That's brilliant! 

And although this one is, naturally, beautifully made to your usual stunning standards, the design looks simple enough for less skilful metalworkers to have a go at.

If I was the editor of a woodworking magazine I would be paying you for an article describing this in step by step detail. Unless you were thinking of making and selling batches of the finished article... IIRC Veritas had a go at something like this but gave up on it. Well done!


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## Racers (27 Jan 2015)

Nicely done! and with your signature front handle as well.

Pete


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## tobytools (27 Jan 2015)

nice, what a fantastic idea.. 

TT


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## Bedrock (27 Jan 2015)

Really clever "upcycling"!
What does the central long bolt do? Is it just to hold the blade in place or is there something I am missing? The blade looks too thick to achieve any bowing as with the no.60 scraper plane.

Mike


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## rxh (27 Jan 2015)

Thanks for the kind comments, gents.



Bedrock":524phbbe said:


> Really clever "upcycling"!
> What does the central long bolt do? Is it just to hold the blade in place or is there something I am missing? The blade looks too thick to achieve any bowing as with the no.60 scraper plane.


Mike,
Yes, the central bolt just holds the blade in place - it passes through the blade into the specially shaped nut. The blade is non-flexible, like in the LN scraper planes.



AndyT":524phbbe said:


> And although this one is, naturally, beautifully made to your usual stunning standards, the design looks simple enough for less skilful metalworkers to have a go at.


Andy,
If anyone wants to have a go I can provide details of how I made the parts and fitted them to the plane body. To simplify construction the knurled knobs could be replaced by standard bolts and bought knobs.


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## heimlaga (28 Jan 2015)

That is really an impressive bit of machinistry but I just don't like the idea. 
There is already a shortage of good quality number 4 sized smoothers that haven't been vandalized or broken in half and if this conversion trend continues for a few more decades those of us who cannot afford a new one from Clifton or Veritas will be forced to go back to wooden smoothers.
For some weird reson most people who want to make a scrub plane or a scraper or whatever tend to start from an old number 4 which means that only the new crappy ones are left for their intended use.

Would you please promote your idea as a way to upcykle a brand new Anant/Record or a Stanley Handyman. Then this would be an excellent idea!


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## bugbear (28 Jan 2015)

AndyT":24ti44tn said:


> IIRC Veritas had a go at something like this but gave up on it.



http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.a ... 10&p=32635

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools ... om-tooling

BugBear


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## Bigdanny (28 Jan 2015)

Hats off to you. Thats a cracking job. I always thought there must be a way to do this simply and elegantly I just never applied my mind to it.
What thickness steel/ brass did you use for the main holder. I'm guessing 8 or possibly 10 mm or equivalent.

Yours is soo much more than others that are floating around in the ether.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (28 Jan 2015)

heimlaga":1ebomj9c said:


> That is really an impressive bit of machinistry but I just don't like the idea.
> There is already a shortage of good quality number 4 sized smoothers that haven't been vandalized or broken in half and if this conversion trend continues for a few more decades those of us who cannot afford a new one from Clifton or Veritas will be forced to go back to wooden smoothers.
> For some weird reson most people who want to make a scrub plane or a scraper or whatever tend to start from an old number 4 which means that only the new crappy ones are left for their intended use.
> 
> Would you please promote your idea as a way to upcykle a brand new Anant/Record or a Stanley Handyman. Then this would be an excellent idea!




Oh come on, there are billions of no 4s out there and hardly anyone with the skills to make this. I really can't see this becoming the next big craze.

On another note. I have never used a "scraper plane" but do use a no 80 and card scrapers. Is there any advantage in these over a no 80? (apart from it looking great) I have read that the plane body makes it less tiring but can't say I find this an issue with the 80 (I do find it an issue with cards).
Paddy


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## Racers (28 Jan 2015)

The longer sole reduces the tendency to hollow the work piece and they are easer to use.
I have burnt my thumbs with card scrapers!

Pete


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## heimlaga (28 Jan 2015)

Paddy Roxburgh":2qs4fg9d said:


> heimlaga":2qs4fg9d said:
> 
> 
> > That is really an impressive bit of machinistry but I just don't like the idea.
> ...



I don't know what it is like where you live but around here every aspiring household handyman seems to want a smoother. He usually abuses it until it breaks. It is pretty rare to find a high quality number 4 body without the mandatory cracks and missing chunks. Many have been broken in half and crudely welded or rivited together once or twice. I have also seen a number of longer metal planes that have been cut of in one end or both ends to turn them into smoothers. 
For some reason those people tend to leave other types of planes behind rusting in the back of a tractor shed or old barn. Those planes have a much higher survival rate.
Just about any modification may become a craze......... and you do not need much skill to get inspired and weld up a very botched version of this excellent piece of craftsmanship.


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## Paul Chapman (28 Jan 2015)

bugbear":nq5k0g7k said:


> AndyT":nq5k0g7k said:
> 
> 
> > IIRC Veritas had a go at something like this but gave up on it.
> ...



I bought one of those scraper plane inserts many years ago. It was awful and I could never get it to work. I gave it away in the end.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Vann (28 Jan 2015)

Paul Chapman":3bhvcn6v said:


> bugbear":3bhvcn6v said:
> 
> 
> > AndyT":3bhvcn6v said:
> ...


This does look like a better engineered solution than the LV idea.

And there's no shortage of incomplete No.4 planes for sale in my neck of the woods (I always thought Finland would be an interesting place to live - but if there is a shortage of No.4s there... no way :mrgreen: )

Cheers, Vann.


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## rxh (29 Jan 2015)

Thanks to all for your further comments. New scraper planes are extremely expensive and I saw this as a way of producing one very cheaply (with a bit of effort). I think that any Bailey type plane could be adapted in this way but I certainly don't recommend sacrificing a good one. However I wouldn't object to making use of one that is incomplete, damaged or an inferior specimen.



Bigdanny":31z07j79 said:


> Hats off to you. Thats a cracking job. I always thought there must be a way to do this simply and elegantly I just never applied my mind to it.
> What thickness steel/ brass did you use for the main holder. I'm guessing 8 or possibly 10 mm or equivalent.
> 
> Yours is soo much more than others that are floating around in the ether.


Thanks Bigdanny. The steel and brass plates are 1/4" thick and are connected using "mortice and tenon" joints using solder as the "glue".


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## rafezetter (30 Jan 2015)

Hmmm - I smell a something fishy.... you bought that didn't you; go on admit it... it's Lie Nielson's stab at making a conversion kit prototype, it's ok you can tell me I won't tell a soul.

Seriously though, your small router plane (had the pleasure of handling it at Richard A's do) was excellent, and now this is also... excellent. Just as a f'instance how much would it cost to have those parts made as a conversion kit? I think you'd definitely have some takers on here.

The only thing I'd mention though is you say you'd not use this on a good #4 - is there something about this kit that means it can't be set back up as a smoother? I'm keeping in mind that Condeesto mentioned it might require a perfectly lapped sole to give perfect results (Although I agree old pre '70's #4's seem to be everywhere, I've got 4 here and 2 of them are just sat here as I can't seem to sell them - £50 each delivered to you Heimlaga  )


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## condeesteso (30 Jan 2015)

Richard will be back on this point, but I know he had to open the mouth a bit. It might be that the common No4 'tune-up' to a thick iron and cap (QS for example) would convert back, as you generally need to open the mouth for those iron set-ups anyway. I suspect the idea is a cheap donor No4 and keep it as a scraper.


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## rxh (30 Jan 2015)

rafezetter":1btrb0ij said:


> Hmmm - I smell a something fishy.... you bought that didn't you; go on admit it... it's Lie Nielson's stab at making a conversion kit prototype, it's ok you can tell me I won't tell a soul.
> 
> Seriously though, your small router plane (had the pleasure of handling it at Richard A's do) was excellent, and now this is also... excellent. Just as a f'instance how much would it cost to have those parts made as a conversion kit? I think you'd definitely have some takers on here.
> 
> The only thing I'd mention though is you say you'd not use this on a good #4 - is there something about this kit that means it can't be set back up as a smoother? I'm keeping in mind that Condeesto mentioned it might require a perfectly lapped sole to give perfect results (Although I agree old pre '70's #4's seem to be everywhere, I've got 4 here and 2 of them are just sat here as I can't seem to sell them - £50 each delivered to you Heimlaga  )


Thanks for the kind comments. At the moment I don't make things for sale but I have been known to do swaps occasionally  . Maybe after I have retired, which may not be all that far away .....
The main part was made a little oversized then filed down to a good fit. I fitted it nicely to my No. 4 but found it needed further filing for a good fit to the plane body I bought - so because of these manufacturing tolerances either the customer would need to do the fitting or else send me the plane for me to do it. It is not all that difficult but needs a bit of patience: first the relevant parts of the plane are brushed with engineers' blue and then the part is offered up. Where there blue is transferred shows where to file the part. Then these operations are repeated until a good fit is obtained.



condeesteso":1btrb0ij said:


> Richard will be back on this point, but I know he had to open the mouth a bit. It might be that the common No4 'tune-up' to a thick iron and cap (QS for example) would convert back, as you generally need to open the mouth for those iron set-ups anyway. I suspect the idea is a cheap donor No4 and keep it as a scraper.


Yes Douglas, I think it could be converted back using a thick blade as you say. When I tried it first I found the mouth gap rather tight but I didn't want to take a file to my No. 4 so I bought a spare body to modify (for the princely sum of 99p + P&P). Any cheap Bailey style plane could be used provided its sole is flat, or can be made flat - so I agree that would be the best way to go in order to have a scraper ready when needed.


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## 3dwilliams (9 Sep 2017)

HI,
You said if anyone would be keen to have a go that you would be prepared to provide details of the parts and how you made it, would you still be prepared to do that?


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## rxh (9 Sep 2017)

Yes, I can give you a scale drawing with list of materials, notes and options for British or Metric threads. If you PM me your address I’ll put a copy in the post, or I can e-mail you a PDF if you are able to make A3 size prints.

The only difficulty in making it was the connection between the front plate and top plate of the main assembly, which required careful filing.

Because of the manufacturing tolerances in plane castings it is necessary to make the main assembly slightly oversize and file it down to fit. I made mine fit a No.4 body nicely then tried it on another No.4 body and it required more filing for a good fit on that one. It is not all that difficult but needs a bit of patience: first the relevant parts of the plane are brushed with engineers' blue and then the part is offered up. Where there blue is transferred shows where to file the part. Then these operations are repeated until a good fit is obtained.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that I found it necessary to open up the plane mouth a little in order to avoid clogging with the shavings.


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## jim1950 (9 Sep 2017)

very nice looking job, wish I had one when I was scarping large hardwood worktops in the joiners shop would have saved all them blistered thumbs and finger go black working on oak tops. 

Great job


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Sep 2017)

That's a nice job. Can you show some of the shavings it makes?

Another thing for anyone here to try is to reverse the blade in a Stanley and use it bevel up. With a 35 degree bevel, this will create a cutting/scraping angle of 80 degrees. It will work like a scraper plane.







Regards from Perth

Derek


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## rxh (10 Sep 2017)

Thanks Jim and Derek. Here is a photo with some shavings:


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## 3dwilliams (11 Sep 2017)

"Yes, I can give you a scale drawing with list of materials, notes and options for British or Metric threads. If you PM me your address I’ll put a copy in the post, or I can e-mail you a PDF if you are able to make A3 size prints."

It says I have not posted enough not the forum to us the PM function! How frustrating. Does anyone know how many posts I have to make to be allowed this use this function?


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## memzey (11 Sep 2017)

Three. You should be ok now.


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## Jeff57 (13 Feb 2018)

rxh":2c5urn82 said:


> This is an experiment to make a scraper plane using a Stanley No. 4 as the basis. The blade is held against a metal support which is bolted to the frog mounting holes in the casting. I made the parts and temporarily fitted them to my No. 4 to satisfy myself that the idea would work. Then I bought a No. 4 body from a well known auction site, transferred the parts to it together with new handles that I had made. The blade is made of 1/8" thick O1 steel, bevelled at 45 degrees and inclined forward at 20 degrees from vertical. The usual style of front knob would be no good because the forward leaning blade would get in the way of a proper grip. I had to open up the mouth a little to allow good clearance for shavings. The central screw is first tightened to hold the blade and then the two small screws are tightened to provide additional security against the blade rotating in use. The completed plane works well.


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## collinb (15 May 2018)

I realize that this is an old thread.
Has a product been created from this design?
Alternatively, are the mechanical drawings available? (I have a machinist at my place of employment ...)


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## rxh (15 May 2018)

collinb":2mi11aqh said:


> I realize that this is an old thread.
> Has a product been created from this design?
> Alternatively, are the mechanical drawings available? (I have a machinist at my place of employment ...)


I have sent copies of the drawing to several people who wanted to make a scraper plane for their own use but I don't know if any of them completed it. I also had an an enquiry from someone in the USA about manufacturing them under licence but it came to nothing. Anyway, collinb, please send me a PM if you would like me to send you the drawing.


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## oaksquare617 (10 May 2020)

That is some beautiful plane, I would love to take a crack at it. Is there a way that I might be able to get a hold of your notes as a new member? Apparently I’m not able to PM just yet. I am a fan of designing my tools, but when something is right it’s right, and I’d like to build yours. Please let me know how I might proceed, thanks.
-Mike


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## rxh (10 May 2020)

oaksquare617":3jjfso2r said:


> That is some beautiful plane, I would love to take a crack at it. Is there a way that I might be able to get a hold of your notes as a new member? Apparently I’m not able to PM just yet. I am a fan of designing my tools, but when something is right it’s right, and I’d like to build yours. Please let me know how I might proceed, thanks.
> -Mike


Thanks Mike. Yes, I can send you the details. I believe that you will be able to send me a PM after you have made three posts.


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