# Incra - what's the point ?? ;o)



## Aragorn (15 Mar 2005)

Just looking at the wonderful joints that are shown to advertise the Incra router table fences.
:shock: Fantastic!
Inlaid DTs with the kind of accuracy I've only ever seen with a Leigh. :wink: 

*Questions are:*
Does anyone with the Incra fence on their router table use it for fancy joints of this kind ??
If so, would you recommend this system ??
What other general uses do you have for it where you would choose it above, say, the TS, Leigh, Woodrat, handtools ??
If you are in a position to compare, would you rate this method _above _the Leigh/Rat for DTs ??
What does the Incra fence/router table combo offer you that would be hard to do with some of the other jigs commonly used ??

As you can probably tell, I'm considering upgrading my whole router table setup, and I'm trying to evaluate the cost benefit over just keeping it as I have it (very basic setup).
I'd love to know more from users what kind of versatility and efficiency is offered by this system.

Any comments appreciated. Please feel free to gloat as much as you like about your wonderful Incra fences :wink: Ta!


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## Chris Knight (15 Mar 2005)

Aragorn,

I don't use my Incra for dovetailing - I think it makes rotten dovetails actually!

I do use it for a number of other things however that are made easy by the precise positioning possibilities of the fence and the repeatability (returning to a position - *exactly* - you have previously established).

These things are mainly

1. Sliding dovetails
2. Tenons
3. Box joints
4. Grooving and slot cutting
5. Rebating

Of course you can do these things in other ways but the Incra makes them all hit and no miss.


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## Anonymous (15 Mar 2005)

I would have written exactly what Chris has, but he beat me to it

The incra is superb and its repeatability unparalleled


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## Aragorn (15 Mar 2005)

I'm surprised to hear it's so poor at DTs. Especially since these make up the bulk of the marketing photos.
Why is it so poor? Or is it just that Leigh/Rat are so much better?
How do you get on with having to have so much width to accomodate the fence? Do you find it turns your router table into a bulkier-than-necessary item?


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## Anonymous (15 Mar 2005)

Aragorn

To be fair, I haven't tried it on DTs as I have the Leigh and now prefer to hand-cut them when I can

I posted a link to my new router table on here a while back and the shape fits nicely into a corner where the extended rear section is pretty snug and so I do not find it a problem. I am poretty happy with the size of the table - Norm's design :wink: 

However, I did need to make a new router table to use it as my original (shop bought) one was too narrow :roll:


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## Chris Knight (15 Mar 2005)

Aragorn,
Re dovetails. First I confess that I have limited experience with the Incra in this area - precisely because I did not like my first few attempts and have not persevered - having alternatives.

However - FWIW, The Incra suffers from the usual problem of a fixed jig layout - at least using their supplied templates, although I have seen in the past (on the web) a nifty program for making your own templates. That problem is that you need to match a template to the width of stock you are using. Neither the Leigh, nor the Rat suffer from this.

The Incra templates are also based on horrid dovetail cutters - 14 degrees for example - nothing approaching the elegance of the Rat cutters. The cutting of through dovetails, using only the dovetail cutter - where other jigs use a straight cutter for the pins, requires the judicious use of a chisel and whilst not in itself a problem, leave an odd shaped pin in my view at least.

For half blind dovetails wider than the dovetail cutter, I have not found a way to make something as neat as the corresponding Leigh joint. There seem to be several useless cutouts - which whilst unseen in the finished joint, certainly don't contribute to its strength.

Re bulkiness. Yes, I think the system is bulky and I can think (minus a few critical details!) of at least one (rather obvious) way of making a huge space saving using the Incra tooth system. If I get really bored, I may do this one day - or perhaps I can persuade our JigMeister Tony to do it instead!

HOWEVER - with all its drawbacks, I love it.


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## Aragorn (15 Mar 2005)

Thanks guys.
I'm getting the feeling that, unless you already have one (and love it), there's not much to favour making the upgrade if you have other ways of cutting the joints already established. Especially given that, for me, the upgrade will also involve making a new router table to accommodate the beast!
Am I missing something here?


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## Woodythepecker (15 Mar 2005)

While on the subject of Incra what are the main difference between the Incra Twin Linear 21" and the 25" LS Super Fence System. 

Regards

Woody


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## Neil (15 Mar 2005)

Well, I'm a bit of an Incra newbie and I haven't tried it for dovetails yet - I saw this as more of an added bonus feature rather than a reason to get it. In fact I must admit I don't even like the double-dovetails  I was almost completely influenced by Chris' recommendation of the Incra for making items such as full extension drawer runners, combined with my desire to emulate some of the 'wood engineering' in my favourite ‘inspiration’ book, 'Solid Wood Cabinet Construction' by Franz Karg. Also I love box joints and the Incra is great for these. I thought the Ultra-Lite was big enough for my needs and pretty reasonably priced (£140) so I got it and have no regrets, in fact the only tool which ranks above it as my favourite (at least until later this week... :wink in my admittedly pretty limited tool collection is the Festool saw.



waterhead37":1yalblda said:


> The Incra templates are also based on horrid dovetail cutters - 14 degrees for example - nothing approaching the elegance of the Rat cutters.


I swapped the racks on my Incra for metric ones, and after doing this you cannot use the Incra templates. Now this didn't worry me at all as I knew I could make my own, but when I started working it out I realised that you can use whatever dovetail cutters you like (including the Woodrat ones :roll because the template spacing is a function of cutter geometry AND depth of cut - you just need to find a depth of cut close to what you want which results in spacings in some multiple of 1mm or 1/32" depending on which racks you have installed.

Re: the big router table required - I love all that real estate because it is great for template routing, but I must admit I wouldn't have wanted to try to accommodate an Ultra - I think Tony's solution of taking a saw to the Incra was the best idea to get around this!

Cheers,
Neil


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## bg (15 Mar 2005)

Neil":1bt6u310 said:


> I swapped the racks on my Incra for metric ones
> Neil



Hello Neil,
seeing your reference to metric racks I've just been perusing Incra and Woodpecker web sites, but I have not found a reference to metric racks. Well its late in the day and my eyes are tired, so I may well not be seeing straight, but to help this poor old woodworker out I would be grateful if you could let me know if I can change my 'inches' incra positioner to a metric one and if so where to get the bits from. 
Thanks 
BG


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## Noel (15 Mar 2005)

Neil - "full extension drawer runners"? Please explain. 


Cheers

Noel


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## Chris Knight (16 Mar 2005)

Noel,

I think Neil is probably referring to these drawer runners in a table I made. They are indeed full extension slides and need very accurate cutting to work well. The Incra makes it fairly straightforward to achieve such accuracy


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## Philly (16 Mar 2005)

Hi Aragorn
Only just read this one-I have an Incra Ultra-lite. 
To me, the Incra is how I would like the fence on all my machinery to be-simple to adjust, accurate, easily to re-position (an important feature),micro adjustable. The 90 degree mitre sled thing is awfully handy, too. 
As to joint cutting ability-when you read the manual through lightbulbs start going off. You can cut some clever stuff (although you realise that this can be done with other methods/machines when you think about it!) The dovetails are good, although I think (as Chris mentioned) they are more "showy" than "strength" :wink: 
As with all jig/systems, there is a learning curve but it is not particulaly hard. I found it showed up the accuracy of my table saw a lot. (that is now fixed, thtank you Woodford :wink: ) You can batch cut pieces, as with other systems, too.
Bottom line-it is a very versatile system, and the more you use it the more you get out of it. As to if it is better than the Rat/Leigh/whatever, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.
It is nice to use the router table to it potential, though!
Cheers
Philly


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## Neil (16 Mar 2005)

waterhead37":2z8m7976 said:


> Noel,
> 
> I think Neil is probably referring to these drawer runners in a table I made.


Thats them - thanks, Chris  - and it was lovely to see them again as well! Noely, almost anything with a drawer in Karg's book uses these or a variation of them - along with lots of other nice examples of wood engineering such as wooden hinges, door latches, castors etc. Inspirational stuff!



bg":2z8m7976 said:


> I would be grateful if you could let me know if I can change my 'inches' incra positioner to a metric one and if so where to get the bits from.


BG, you have to get them direct from Incra in the US I'm afraid - they are very cheap ($6), but I don't know how the carriage worked out (do you remember, Tony?) as they gave me mine free . Just email [email protected] and they will sort it out for you. Oh - I just thought - you don't have the LS positioner, do you? If you do, I'm afraid that there is no conversion kit as far as I know, as it would involve changing the (very expensive) lead screw as well.

Go on, Aragorn, you know you want one  - £140 isn't much...

Cheers,
Neil


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## Woodythepecker (16 Mar 2005)

Oh well :roll: 

Regards

Woody


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## Gill (16 Mar 2005)

Until I read this thread, I had no idea what the Incra fence was all about. I must say, I'm intrigued by its potential, especially at a cost of £140.

Isn't it time that somebody wrote a proper review?

Gill


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## Neil (16 Mar 2005)

Woodythepecker":3cjv83by said:


> Oh well :roll:


Sorry, Woody  

The LS Super-duper uses a lead screw, the Twin Linear uses racks. The advantage that Incra claim for the LS is that there is no limit on your microadjustment - on the rack models, if you are a bit disorganised and don't reset your microadjustment back to zero now and then, it is possible to run out of adjustment (I think it has a range of +- 5/32"). I've never had a problem with this in practice so I wouldn't say its a big issue. If you want a metric Incra, I am 99.9% sure that there is no conversion kit for the LS.

Hope this helps  



Gill":3cjv83by said:


> Isn't it time that somebody wrote a proper review?


Gill, I've been thinking this too. I guess I could do it, or maybe I could do the dog-work and Chris/Philly/Tony could help me by adding a bit more 'experienced input'?  

Cheers,
Neil


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## Woodythepecker (16 Mar 2005)

Thanks Neil, i was just interested to know the differences between the two.

I will have to go and investigate some more.

Regards

Woody


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## Noel (16 Mar 2005)

Thanks Chris and Neil about the drawer slides. This is the first time that I've thought that the Incra could actually be useful. Cheers.

Noel


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## Noel (16 Mar 2005)

Neil, think I may have to drop in with you next time I'm down your part of the world, which might be in a week or two.

Rgds

Noel


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## RogerS (16 Mar 2005)

I just bought a T-track and Shop Stop from Rutland to have a play with and now am thinking that I have got Imperial as I don't remember seeing the option on their site.

Yup...dammit....just checked their site and am cursing my impetuosity as the webpage clearly says 1/32" increments


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## Neil (16 Mar 2005)

Noel":2udutv2f said:


> Neil, think I may have to drop in with you next time I'm down your part of the world, which might be in a week or two.


Excellent, Noely - you are very welcome. If only I hadn't done that DM-tools order yesterday - I could have had it sent to you and saved the £45 delivery charge!  

Cheers,
Neil


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## Noel (16 Mar 2005)

Let me know anytime in the future. 

Noel


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## tim (16 Mar 2005)

Philly":38014gb0 said:


> Only just read this one-I have an Incra Ultra-lite



Which one? There seem to be 3 versions of this alone 12 1/2, 16 and 24". 

I'm also pretty confused about what comes with what and more importantly what is needed to do what.?

Now there's a sentence in good England grammar like when I was a children! :shock:  :roll: 

A review would be fab in time but just for the less familiar (okay - me then), can anyone who has experience of these fences, give a really quick comparative overview.

I've read up the stuff on Incra's site and one thing I can't work out is why I really need to be able to put 2ft between the cutter and the fence.

Like all of these bits of kit, I'm always curious to know what i would be really missing out on if I went for the basic model.

Cheers

Tim


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## davidc1075 (16 Mar 2005)

If anyone is considering incra gear or woodpecker I have just bought an extreme extension from www.woodworkersworkshop.co.uk tel 01491 629 699. It was delivered within 24 hours and got a follow up call as well. He was cheaper than anywhere else that I could source it from and I have compared the prices of the incra fences which work out on average £20-40 cheaper than another major UK source but one or two items were about the same price. He does claim to be able to get you anything by these two companies, may be worth a telephone call if it can save you some money. His web site is being updated to include some new pages I couldn't find the Incra on there but all the details were sent with my delivery. Dave


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## Neil (16 Mar 2005)

Hi Tim,

Philly and I both have the Ultra-Lite which is the baby with 12.5" travel.

Then we have the Ultra, which comes in 17" and 24" versions, although I'm not sure who sells the 17" in the UK.

Then there are the new models which use a lead screw instead of racks - I think they have 25" travel.

For a router table, I don't think there is any need for more than the 12.5" Ultra-Lite model, but Chris, Tony and Waka may disagree! The biggesr ones do have nicer features as well as more travel - things like a much better , microadjustable track stop and suchlike.

They all come with the right-angle fixtures. The Ultra-Lite only comes with two Incra templates, the Ultra comes with about 50 I think.

I'll try to do a mini-review ASAP so that you can at least see what you get in the box, and how it works. No extensive demos of joint cutting I'm afraid!

Cheers,
Neil


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## tim (16 Mar 2005)

Thanks Neil - speedy and helpful response. Its exactly the sort of info I'm after re microadjustability etc.

Do you use yours for sliding DTs etc? Are you pleased with the accuracy and adjustability settings?

What do the 48 other templates do?

Cheers

T


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## Aragorn (16 Mar 2005)

Neil
I'll second that thanks for a simple overview.
I'm also interested to hear more about everything Tim has asked.


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## Neil (16 Mar 2005)

Hi Tim,

I haven't used it for sliding dovetails yet, but it would be ideal for these. Very pleased with accuracy, and in particular, repeatability. Re: adjustability, the racks work really well and it is so quick for making changes in intervals of whole numbers of mm if you see what I mean. For smaller adjustments, the micro-adjuster is fine, but I would like it to 'click' for each 1/256" or 0.1mm - I think it is supposed to, but I don't think mine does. This is a very minor grumble though. Adjustment to the nearest 1/512" or 0.05mm is easy, and I'm not too worried about adjustment finer than this!

Hopefully one of the Ultra owners will confirm what the other templates are - as far as I know, they are things like box joints of various sizes, various dovetails, double-dovetails, maybe even triple-dovetails for all I know!

Cheers,
Neil


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## Chris Knight (16 Mar 2005)

My 24 inch model comes with a stack of templates for both dovetails and box joints. They cover a range of timber thicknesses and bit sizes, also double and double double dovetails. I don't use the dovetail ones and have used maybe two or three of the box joint ones.

As I have mentioned in the past, the Incra is best for jointing (dovetails/box joints) smaller dimensioned stock - like boxes. As you go up in size, the Woodrat and Leigh jigs start to become handier in my view. A main reason is that for cutting dovetails and box joints, the tailboard must be held vertically which is hard to do with a long heavy board stood on end on the router table - a lot easier hanging from the clamps in a Woodrat or Leigh. If one _were _to do this with the Incra, that is a reason to have a big distance from fence to cutter on the router table (dovetailing a wide carcase side for example). As I don't do this, I have not found that distance really necessary and as Tony mentioned elsewhere, I could happily cut 6 inches off my jig without penalty. A big distance could be useful to cut a housing in the ,middle of a shelf perhaps but I usually do that with a hand held router and a clamped on guide. I can and do use the Incra to make the matching male part of the dovetail or sliding tongue, if the piece is not too long - if it is, I will use the Rat.

My fine adjust is calibrated in thousandths of an inch. Tony published a PDF file to replace this with a metric calibration for folk who use the grgeen metric racks.


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## tim (16 Mar 2005)

Thanks Chris. 



Chris":1vemby07 said:


> As you go up in size, the Woodrat and Leigh jigs start to become handier in my view. A main reason is that for cutting dovetails, the tailboard must be held vertically which is hard to do with a long heavy board stood on end on the router table - a lot easier hanging from the clamps in a Woodrat or Leigh.



Thats what i thought the main reason might be. 

Was there any other particular reason why you went for the 24" one vs the 16", if you are happy to lose 6" - I'm assuming therefore that the 8" difference wouldn't make much odds?

Cheers

T


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## Chris Knight (16 Mar 2005)

tim":cznkcl57 said:


> Was there any other particular reason why you went for the 24" one vs the 16", if you are happy to lose 6" - I'm assuming therefore that the 8" difference wouldn't make much odds?


Tim,
I got it without doing enough thinking/research!


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## tim (16 Mar 2005)

Chris":1pzikld8 said:


> Tim,
> I got it without doing enough thinking/research!



Sorry  

I've got a workshop full of those tools - hence my neverending stream of questions now!:lol: 

T


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## ColG (16 Mar 2005)

I researched all of the Incra jigs as I liked the fact that it could be used on the router table.

I settled on the 17" LS Super System which I've ordered from the states. This includes the Wonder Fence which itself is micro adjustable.

However, I purchased a new Ultra Lite of ebay as I'm still waiting for delivery of my main system. Am I impressed? Definitely. One of the biggest advantages that I can see to the system is the fact that you can swap the system between different machines in your workshop.

For example, you can use it on your table saw to give you a highly accurate fence, you can use it on your drill press for accurate drilling as well as your router table.

I agree, you need a bigger router table but you could always add an extension if you didn't want to go to the trouble of building a new router table.

One of the best sites I found to explain and demonstrate practical use of the Incra Jig was http://www.woodshopdemos.com/menu2.htm

I looked at the Rat but was put off by the fact you needed a wall which in my small workshop (AKA Shed) was not practical - plus the cost of the thing. My sister went the Leigh route and whilst I was impressed, straight out of the box as it were, I got better results cutting DT on the Incra PLUS you don't have to spend another arm and a leg to get the Box Jointing template.

The Incra is very well engineered and I think is really good value for money when compared to most of the other "professional" type jigs - I discount all the cheapy HBDT jigs you can buy - I have a Perform Yellow Devil which is used as a doorstop now.

As regards what my main use for it will be, initially, I want to get into box making using both DT and box Joints, I like the way Incra do their wooden hinges as well and yes, I was in part seduced by the fancy dovetails which I intend to have a got at when I get the time.

Not a review but just some thoughts on the Incra which I hope some find useful.

Col


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## Chris Knight (17 Mar 2005)

Col,

You will find the Wonderfence is very useful. It handles different bit sizes very well and the ability to easily offset the fence halves makes edge jointing easy.

I like the tee slots on the fence and tall extension - I use these to fix pieces of melamine chipboard which I can then use, for example, as zero clearance fences


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## Neil (17 Mar 2005)

Hi Gill, I've just posted a review of the Incra here, just for you!  

Chris, Tony, Philly, Waka, Col - please fill in the gaps!

Cheers,
Neil


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## Gill (17 Mar 2005)

Neil":tje1wy3a said:


> Hi Gill, I've just posted a review of the Incra here, just for you!



And it's well worth reading, too. Thank you ever so much for your efforts, Neil. I reckon this one is going onto my list for Santa (unless I can find a way to make Christmas come a little early this year  ).

Gill


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## Anonymous (17 Mar 2005)

tim":3fyvc8b7 said:


> Was there any other particular reason why you went for the 24" one vs the 16", if you are happy to lose 6" - I'm assuming therefore that the 8" difference wouldn't make much odds?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> T



Tim

I too bought the 24" Incra and chopped 6" off the end of it. The reason? You can't buy the 16" one in England (at least I couldn't find a supplier)


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## RogerS (17 Mar 2005)

Tony...I know just what you mean. I am intending to experiment with the Incra T-track and ShopStop. 

To my mind, you need two ShopStops and indeed you can buy them individually in the US. Can you get them over here from Rutlands? No way...

I went through all this when computers first started up...dollar for $ and all that. Plus limited (blinkered?) UK distribution plus zero interest from US companies in selling outside the grand old US of A. Sad to see that woodworking has the same/similar annoyances.

Rant over

Roger


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