# Craft show rubbish



## Bungalowbill63 (30 Aug 2019)

Why is there no scroll saw work at craft shows?
I’ve been to a few shows and steam fairs this year and not seen anyone showing or selling good scrollsaw work in the craft section.
All I ever see is laser cut rubbish with scorch marks on the surfaces !, the people who sell this stuff just are not helping we should start asking for better.
Let’s get our work out there it’s so much better
Let’s hear what you think!!!


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## sunnybob (30 Aug 2019)

How much are you going to charge for your vastly superior work?
And do you think the average show visitor will understand why you are three times the price just because yours doesnt have burn marks?

Only another woodworker will understand the difference, and he wont be buying from either of you.
CNC routers and laser cutters have destroyed the craft market as far as hand made wood is concerned


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## That would work (30 Aug 2019)

Hi
I hate laser cut tat. No skill apart from using a mouse. Looks awful too!
I'm a DT teacher and whilst laser cutting offers a good route into cnc work I'm tired of seeing burnt ply everywhere. 
Did I mention that I didn't like it?


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## marcros (30 Aug 2019)

In my opinion:

Because they can't compete with mass produced rubbish, churned out by the dozen on a machine. The public don't know what they are looking at so frequently buy solely on price. Somebody attempting to factor even minimum wage labour into a piece has no chance, other than making a bit of a show of it and making kids door name signs whilst you wait. 

I also note that a lot of scrollsaw work is catering for a decreasing size market. I see very few contemporary designs. By comparison, turners seem to adapt more quickly to fashions/trends. 

Some of the top end scroll work, and I have in mind some intarsias I have seen are more suited to a gallery than a craft fair. I think that a craft fair has a low financial upper limit, which may vary from place to place, but whatever it is, the punters want something that should be 3x the price if the true cost was calculated.


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## Trevanion (30 Aug 2019)

Not to be ignorant and I do understand that a lot of time and skill goes into Scrollwork but I cannot see how it can be in any way profitable. You can't do bog-standard stuff anymore like name tags and such because as you said, Lasers have pretty much killed that market. At the other end of the spectrum, you have to be very clever and artistic to make something that stands out and then in its own way is defined as art rather than craft (Like some of those Intarsias :shock: ). It's exactly the same as woodturning, sure, you could spend £20 on a wood blank and another 3 hours or so turning it and _maybe_ get £25 for it, but if you really want to make money doing that you've got to be seriously abstract and make something that's a statement piece rather than a bowl to sit on the table to hold keys or something. Something like this:







People spend large amounts of money on their houses as it's in most minds "worth spending on" Most won't bat an eye at spending tens of thousands on Windows, Doors, Staircases, Kitchens, etc as they're the thing that gets noticed when someone comes in or looks at the house itself. People hardly ever notice what's on the walls or table unless it's something that really stands out and is unique. Being unique and looking unique are two totally different things too, it's easy to be unique, it's hard to have a unique look.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Aug 2019)

That's not really a realistic comparison - people know that unless they go doolally spending on their houses, they'll get the money back at some stage.


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## marcros (30 Aug 2019)

I think if you can produce art rather than craft, there is a chance of making some money on it, providing you can sell it. A craft fair is not really the outlet for that. A gallery may be but if they take 50% commission and there is a lot of labour in the piece, then it is heading back down to the questionable payback zone.


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## Bungalowbill63 (30 Aug 2019)

In my post I also said show, just because it’s in the craft tent it’s not all about money there are lots of exhibitors who like to show their stuff and chat about their hobbies whatever it may be, so why not just exhibit.?
You guys could really steal the show!


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## CHJ (30 Aug 2019)

I suspect the answer is to produce work to the standard of Fiona Kingdon, then it should attract the attention of appreciative clientele.






Investing in your own web shop, using the money otherwise lost to gallery fees to promote it and possibly pay for someone to maintain it.

I was first exposed to her work at the Cressing Temple 2013 event.


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## Trainee neophyte (30 Aug 2019)

As I mentioned in another thread, buying hand crafted anything is essentially conspicuous consumption: mass produced tat is the norm, so going for traditional, hand made anything only makes sense it is either a) the same price as mass produced tat,which is uneconomic, therefore impossible or b) nose bleedingly expensive but gives pride of ownership, or other conspicuous benefit. To make a living, or even a profit, you need to find a niche where your product can be marketed to the limited number of people who can afford such fripperies as hand turned salt and pepper pots. 

You need a unique product, and unique story to compel Tarquin and Jocasta to part with their cash, in order to impress their dinner party guests. It probably has nothing to do with the level of skill of the product, either. I remember a tour around the modern art gallery in Madrid, next to the Prado - a few bits of wood, poorly finished, even more poorly joined together, and badly painted,but worth millions because of the story behind them.

A craft show probably isn't the right outlet, as it doesn't gather the right clientele.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Aug 2019)

I suspect you need chutzpah and cojones that most of us don't possess to sell garbage at inflated prices. There are different worlds in this Country, however - there was an article in The Times the other day on how to make the the most of your home if you had only £75,000 to spend.


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## sunnybob (31 Aug 2019)

Bungalowbill63":k1xezr9w said:


> In my post I also said show, just because it’s in the craft tent it’s not all about money there are lots of exhibitors who like to show their stuff and chat about their hobbies whatever it may be, so why not just exhibit.?
> You guys could really steal the show!



I'm afraid it comes back to that same old answer.... Money.
To take a stand at a "craft" show of any size in the Uk is going to cost you a few hundred quid minimum.
Add the travelling to and from, the overnight accomodation if its a long way away or more than a day. basic food and drink, and you are rapidly approaching a thousand smackers, for ZERO return.

I agree with you that its sad, but its a fact of life.


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## Rorschach (31 Aug 2019)

sunnybob":1c3d1e9v said:


> Bungalowbill63":1c3d1e9v said:
> 
> 
> > In my post I also said show, just because it’s in the craft tent it’s not all about money there are lots of exhibitors who like to show their stuff and chat about their hobbies whatever it may be, so why not just exhibit.?
> ...



That's why I stopped going to foreign shows, several days of my time for what turns out to be an expensive, short holiday. Sometimes being lucky and breaking even or making the same money I could have while staying at home.
I only do one UK show now, I still only make a small profit but at least I can drive and make a nice cheap little holiday out of it .


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## MJOriginals (31 Aug 2019)

Hi
I can accept what’s been said I did a show two years running at the same venue the first year I sold about £50 worth ending up about £250 down but I decided to give it a go the second year just incase this year I came out with about £300 profit on all expenses and since then I have had 4 commission pieces from people who picked up my card
Also I did a Christmas fair last year ata little local hall 3 hrs on a Saturday afternoon 10 miles from the house and I took over £400 for a £10 table fee!!
Its also very difficult to know 
I’ll probably do a few shows in the year but not many in terms of profit give out cards at these shows are the best value
Martyn


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## HappyHacker (31 Aug 2019)

A couple of years ago while on holiday I went to a small craft show in the Cotswolds. There was someone there with lovely turned bowls and other items of various sizes and the most expensive was less than £50.00. He said he got the wood free from friends and it was more of a hobby than business, but even so with the amount of work involved he cannot have been making much if anything. 

A friend worked for a high end joinery company. A client wanted a special box for a special bottle of wine as a birthday present for her husband. My friend designed a box and the company made it, she was delighted, it only cost her £10,000.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Aug 2019)

My friend'd daughter got an apprenticeship at an upmarket boatyard - she could scarcely believe it when one day a woman client had the handrails changed on her her yacht because she didn't like the colour. A mere £32,000. :shock:


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## transatlantic (31 Aug 2019)

So am I the only person that quite likes the scorch marks on laser cut wood? I think it adds contrast and defines the border.

You can test your theory of whether people like or don't like the scorch marks by seeing if they are willing to pay more for the hand cut stuff vs the laser cut stuff.

I suspect you'll find the average person doesn't really care!


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## whatknot (31 Aug 2019)

I suspect you are in a minority there, those that know its cnc cut or laser generally dislike it, those who like in general it don't know or care how its made 

I am in the former camp, I hate cnc / laser cut junk


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## Claymore (3 Sep 2019)

Hi,
The subject of Craft Fairs comes up on here many times and as i used to do craft fairs for a long time in the 90's and sold sod all while a woman on the stall next to mine usually sold most of her own bars of soap, One day i had a brainwave and went home and made a plastic mould (I had my own machines from my old career) and the following week gave it to her....the following week she arrived with loads of new fancy soap bars and sold out because they were designed to look like the Greenman and women which are always popular at craft fairs and she ordered another 50 moulds so from that day on i never hired a table/stand at the craft fairs and concentrated on making custom moulds for here and other soap makers I did that for 6 years before my hands got too bad but i made enough money from them to have my workshop built.
The thing you should be doing is, 1: don't try and sell your work on Ebay or personally don't sell any of it online.....because you will sell very few but they are ideal for others to check out and copy your designs and basically letting you do the hard work designing and developing techniques and they jumping on the bandwagon usually for less than 12 months until they get bored and do the same thing with someone else's work. 2: Don't tell everyone how you make them or your trade secrets and where you get materials etc....I know we like to try and help others and i do the same but again there will be people who rather than do their homework and design their own stuff and you will see your orders dry up... My mate was doing garden ornaments for 30 years and then after explaining online all of his trade secrets his business lasted 12 months and he stopped doing them as he couldn't compete with the others doing copies of his own work and went back to being a landscape gardener. 3: Don't do a craft fair and sit there waiting for the punters to come to you, instead you target your customers away from Craft Fairs, do your homework and find a local business/attraction tourist venue and visit to see first if they are selling anything in their shop and then go home and design something that will fit in with the venue.....don't go over the top on time/expense but make something a punter would buy from there as a souvenir. Don't make anything that can be mass produced either just something that is exclusive to that single place. Once you have created something then if you can send them an email displaying your work and ask them is it something they would like to sell at their venue, this is a great idea because if you go into the venue armed with your work the chances are is the owner won't have time to spare to discuss your work plus you will find it much easier to tell them the prices....believe me i once went into a shop in Haworth and made a total pineapple of myself when i couldn't remember my salesman that i had spent days rehearsing and looked very unprofessional fortunately i did manage to sell them my work and made quite a bit by selling them 3d plaques with Haworth mainstreet on with the cobbles ect the hard bit was actually carving the design and then after making a slicone mould all i had to do was cast them in resin.
4: Once your selling at one venue look for others that are local again with their own unique theme, and then create another item to suite them and do as above, yes you will find them who don't want to buy your work but 9 out of 10 of them will love your work. 
5: As far as costing this is a complicated thing to do and you will never earn enough weekly to live on BUT you can easily make a few grand to pay for new kit or holidays etc its all money you wouldn't have if you sat on your buttocks watching TV. With my own stuff I sold sod all on Ebay etc but once people see your handywork you will get commissions for custom work and that's where the big money is, and you will soon realise what things are good sellers so concentrate on those but also keep coming up with new designs for example if its a wooden dog of a certain breed, pick a rare breed and then contact the Breeders websites again once one of them sees your work they will all want one. I spend more time thinking up new ideas and designing than i actually do cutting wood up and that's where you will earn your big money. Last year I did a life sized head of a Shetland Pony for a local Horse breeders daughter, i ended up getting orders for 6 more all at £500+ but as i am fully booked up until next July they don't mind waiting and i will never post them online to keep them exclusive.
Right my apologies for the long winded post and hopefully I didn't come across like I am preaching to ya as I'm not its just I hope it gets some of you more motivated so you can earn so good money without the need to copy others work etc, I almost forgot the reason for targeting your local venues/shops/museums etc is simple no postage costs you can deliver them yourself.
Hope this helps ya and sorry for not being very active on here at the moment but still playing catch up with my orders from last year.
Cheers 
Brian
Ps forgot to say, one of the best things to sell your work is if you can design your own patterns and also do custom patterns, Phill on here taught me how to use Adobe Illustrator and instead of tracing designs i can make a pattern from any picture/photo. I wouldn't say its easy software to learn but you only need to learn the bits that enable you to make your own patterns plus you don't need the very latest software the older versions work just as good providing its compatible with your own computers software and I bought my Illustrator software used on Ebay for £12.00 new it would have been hundreds. Right best stop waffling lol
Cheers


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## transatlantic (3 Sep 2019)

£12? ... you probably bought a copy.


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## Stanleymonkey (3 Sep 2019)

This might be considered a hijack of the thread or a tangent at the very least...

Not craft fairs as such but school fairs. I wish someone would start producing cheap wooden computer cut stuff for schools and PTAs. Some sort of line of toys, gifts, tat. The plastic waste from all those carpy little toys does my head in. Most of it broken and binned within a day or two and destined for landfill.

Moan over - but maybe some little key tags, games, wooden cars wood be an improvement and less harmful to the environment.

Off for a nap now!


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## powertools (3 Sep 2019)

I think that you will find that it is a potential customer who will decide if items for sale are rubbish or not


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## Claymore (3 Sep 2019)

transatlantic":3a141133 said:


> £12? ... you probably bought a copy.


Nope it was 4 year old so not the most up to date but does everything i need, it was genuine CD Rom with code.


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## transatlantic (3 Sep 2019)

Claymore":398x2l50 said:


> transatlantic":398x2l50 said:
> 
> 
> > £12? ... you probably bought a copy.
> ...


Bargain then 

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk


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## donwatson (4 Sep 2019)

@claymore, Brian is there a reason you use/bought Adobe Illustrator rather than a free programme like Inkscape ?? or should I direct this question at Phill ??

take care
Don W


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## Claymore (4 Sep 2019)

Hi Don,
Only reason I went for Illustrator software was because Phill used it to design his patterns and I wanted to make patterns with very fine lines as it improved the IQ of my Intarsias, Phill is a proper computer whizz kid and designs websites etc so he posted some instructions on here and then he helped me achieve what i wanted to so now i can make a pattern off anything...yes its quite complex at first but you soon get used to the software and also you don't need to learn the whole programme just the bits that you need. I used to use Coreldraw for 18 years but couldn't justify paying £600 for software so bought the used Illustrator disc and it works great......mainly trial and error but ya get there in the end. Phill also does some stunning digital art a real clever sod lol.
Cheers
Brian


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## Claymore (4 Sep 2019)

ps another reason i went for the older Illustrator software is you can get a thick instruction book which helps while learning what all the settings do, most of the free software don't do books although i did see a book on Inkscape a while back.


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## Keith 66 (4 Sep 2019)

A few years ago i had a stand at a Cigar box guitar festival, there were about 15 exhibitors who all had some really good well made guitars for sale.
Unfortunately some blokes from Glasgow turned up with a stand full of stuff made in a council & charity funded workshop, they sold out their entire stock of finished guitars cheaper than the rest of us could buy the parts on their own. The worst thing was they were not even good quality. This effectively killed the show dead for the rest of us & only a few of us were lucky enough to sell anything at all.
I was asked if i wanted to attend the following year & on finding out that the same lot were going again this time with a tv crew to film their antics didnt bother!


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## donwatson (5 Sep 2019)

Thanks Brian,
I may have a look on ebay for Adobe Illustrator but I am having some problems with Inkscape at the moment so it may be some time before I get round to it.
I think I remember Phill doing an explanation on here but without Illustrator it was a nono.

Don W


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## Claymore (5 Sep 2019)

Here's one off Ebay with CS2 and Illustrator ok no on a disk but you download it and install on your computer then buy a book on Amazon for it, buy a used book and you could be up and running for £15 not bad? also don't worry about updating the software as the older software will work on anything with windows 8 upwards may even work on windows 7. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Adobe-CS2-Ph ... Sw-0ddZUck


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## Claymore (5 Sep 2019)

Keith 66":41rxvq2p said:


> A few years ago i had a stand at a Cigar box guitar festival, there were about 15 exhibitors who all had some really good well made guitars for sale.
> Unfortunately some blokes from Glasgow turned up with a stand full of stuff made in a council & charity funded workshop, they sold out their entire stock of finished guitars cheaper than the rest of us could buy the parts on their own. The worst thing was they were not even good quality. This effectively killed the show dead for the rest of us & only a few of us were lucky enough to sell anything at all.
> I was asked if i wanted to attend the following year & on finding out that the same lot were going again this time with a tv crew to film their antics didnt bother!



In the last 12 months some of the places where i used to buy cheap knackered tables etc have started having day clubs where a few women go there and they are painting all the Oak tables and furniture in pastel paint and then trying to sell them in the charity shop, I have always paid the charity shops the full price even when they are knackered and scratched as once its been through my planer/thicknesser its new wood for my projects,,,,,they are actually ruining good furniture by painting it....so now I advertise for any old tables in a local shop window and have bought many Priory Oak tables and cabinets. I bought one Priory sold Oak table for £40 it was badly scratched etc BUT within a fortnight i had made an intarsia using just the tables legs which sold for £150 so £40 is a bargain to me. I have been doing these since 2014 and over the years have managed to get quite a variety of hardwoods doing this. So if you see a table at £40 instead of thinking that's expensive think about how many things you can make out of it and the amount they will fetch at a Craft Fair or any place you sell your creations. Top tip when buying any old table always have a look underneath to make sure the wood grain underneath matches that on the top....if it doesn't them leave it alone as its probably veneered and full of chipboard, I bought a love chest of drawers and found only the drawer fronts were solid Oak.


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## Claymore (5 Sep 2019)

A couple of years ago I came up with an idea while looking round a craft fair and it was nothing to do with selling my own Intarsias etc I noticed most of the stalls looked very jumbled and unprofessional BUT they were selling their stuff very well stuff like homemade soap and jewellery etc small items that look lost on a table. My idea was instead of making things to sell there I would make wooden display stands with shelves/sections to display their work and it would be fast to set up and also fast to pack away. So i made a wooden stand with two hinges sort of like a large dartboard cabinet where the door close, using cheap wood to make the frame and clad in either plywood or hardboard, it had loads of little pegs for hanging necklaces on and others for holding rings etc with space to add a small card explaining what the item is and also what prices are, I also fitted some small battery powered LED lights which were cheap on Ebay but hidden in the cabinet.....these lit up the jewellery great and to top it off i made a plaque for the top with the name if the sellers business in fancy scrolled wood. the first one i made sold for £130 it cost me about £30 to make including all the parts, the pegs were normal dowels the wood was the cheapest pine which was either painted or stained, the hinges were about £1.00. I could have made loads of them as i got people emailing me to make them one but I don't have time to make them and also do my Intarsia's but it proved a point that the sellers like to look as professional as possible. So next time you visit a craft fair look and see how people are displaying their work many just put a table cloth on and a few boxes under it to make them stand out which might look fine but compared to having a custom made display case there's no contest. Forgot to say the stand i made was around 2ft tall and 5ft wide with folding sections at 3ft, the dowels were 5mm and bought a bag with 100's in from Ebay. So you can still sell your work at craft fairs but none of the standing around waiting for a customer for hours


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## Stanleymonkey (5 Sep 2019)

Claymore":1qgq7vl9 said:


> A couple of years ago I came up with an idea while looking round a craft fair and it was nothing to do with selling my own Intarsias etc I noticed most of the stalls looked very jumbled and unprofessional BUT they were selling their stuff very well stuff like homemade soap and jewellery etc small items that look lost on a table. My idea was instead of making things to sell there I would make wooden display stands with shelves/sections to display their work and it would be fast to set up and also fast to pack away. So i made a wooden stand with two hinges sort of like a large dartboard cabinet where the door close, using cheap wood to make the frame and clad in either plywood or hardboard, it had loads of little pegs for hanging necklaces on and others for holding rings etc with space to add a small card explaining what the item is and also what prices are, I also fitted some small battery powered LED lights which were cheap on Ebay but hidden in the cabinet.....these lit up the jewellery great and to top it off i made a plaque for the top with the name if the sellers business in fancy scrolled wood. the first one i made sold for £130 it cost me about £30 to make including all the parts, the pegs were normal dowels the wood was the cheapest pine which was either painted or stained, the hinges were about £1.00. I could have made loads of them as i got people emailing me to make them one but I don't have time to make them and also do my Intarsia's but it proved a point that the sellers like to look as professional as possible. So next time you visit a craft fair look and see how people are displaying their work many just put a table cloth on and a few boxes under it to make them stand out which might look fine but compared to having a custom made display case there's no contest. Forgot to say the stand i made was around 2ft tall and 5ft wide with folding sections at 3ft, the dowels were 5mm and bought a bag with 100's in from Ebay. So you can still sell your work at craft fairs but none of the standing around waiting for a customer for hours




I love your approach. It's a shame you didn't have the time to go on and sell a few more.


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## Claymore (5 Sep 2019)

Cheers, its a way of selling something related to craft fairs but without all the sitting about waiting for a customer plus your not competing with other makers. I actually enjoyed making it but you can only do so much. You could actually make the stands so they concertina with a bit of trial and error, the LED lights were my favourite bit as nothing was visible until you pressed the hidden button and i think that clinched the deal as most craft fairs they don't provide electric sockets for lighting your work. You could do some really fancy ones and if you work with the customer to add certain features they will never get boring to make.
Cheers


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Sep 2019)

Claymore":29s5bsa6 said:


> I bought one Priory sold Oak table for £40 it was badly scratched etc BUT within a fortnight i had made an intarsia using just the tables legs which sold for £150 so £40 is a bargain to me ...


  50 years plus ago my mother used to buy me at auctions Victorian mahogany dining tables .................. if she could get them for less than 10/-.


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## donwatson (6 Sep 2019)

Thanks for that Brian. I will have a look at that link later.


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## Woodywright (12 Oct 2019)

Over the years I exhibited on many design and home shows in my profession as an Architect as well as another career as a cabinet maker. These have varied from Grand Designs, to local agricultural shows to specialist high end craft shows and general craft & Christmas fairs. What I noticed is that from when I started back in the early nineties they worked a lot better than they do today. Over the years they went from being generally profitable to absolutely awful. I believe they way the public shop has moved away from face to face transactions to the web. As has been pointed out above the standard of offerings has also deteriorated in the craft sector with much of it not even being made by the vendor, let alone even in this country. Moreover it is not uncommon to see the same tat being sold by more than one seller. Also as others have said the perceived value of one's offerings bear no relation to the hours and effort put into producing good work as your work is compared to these ghastly imports. Today's visitors to fairs are often younger people looking for a day out an d they do not appreciate quality work simply because they have never learnt what is good quality and what is not. We live in a disposable and instant fashion and gratification society. What I have also experienced is that these days punters have little consideration for abusing your time and good nature and when you have no more to give they go off and get it cheaper elsewhere. I bought a bandsaw form another maker a month or so ago and he said exactly the same - he found himself spending days after a show going to see people who wanted his ideas and input and had no intention of buying and he gave up. Sadly true. Nowadays his work is all Word of Mouth which says it all!


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