# Coley style window



## johnnyb (21 Aug 2018)

My brother's garage has a casement window that was the original window from my house circa 1930! Anyway it's extremely rotten and I love coleys casement window sticky so I've decided to try to follow in his style and knock one up! Coley made his in red redwood(wink) I've decided on yellow redwood(pine). I brought unsorted 9×3 sawn which is as close as I could get I got it sawn in half on the timber yards big saw. Total cost for the frame was £37 this was for a length more than needed. When I got back I faced and edged adjacent sides. And thicknessed to 57mm. I then ripped to 96 and thicknessed to 94. It will have 3 fixed sashes. Or should I put the glass straight in the frame? The garage is a half brick thick with no finish so I'm thinking 94mm may be to deep so I'll check that. One detail I'm missing is how are the fixed sashes fixed? More tomorrow.
Jb


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## ColeyS1 (21 Aug 2018)

You could put the glass straight into the frame (direct glazed) or purely for cosmetic reasons as they won't be opening, make up some casements. The casements are bedded in on silicone, then usually screwed through the glass rebate (where the putty will cover) into the frame. It would be equally as good just nailing them to the frame- perhaps a few pilot holes to help the nails go in. 

This has made my day reading about you preparing to make your own ! Nice one Jb ;@) 




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## johnnyb (21 Aug 2018)

I'm glad your along for ride and the questions! I'll go and have another look at the old one just to make sure it will all work. I wish I knew how to post photos now! 
I don't have a spindle so I'll rebate using the table saw and maybe the router table. I do have a dad for the saw but don't usually use it for rebates.


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## johnnyb (21 Aug 2018)

Tbh my intention is to properly make a window so I'm gonna make the casements to suit. I could just mitre the casements together but I'm in for the full monty so skimping seems daft.


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## ColeyS1 (21 Aug 2018)

johnnyb":3b162y4r said:


> Tbh my intention is to properly make a window so I'm gonna make the casements to suit. I could just mitre the casements together but I'm in for the full monty so skimping seems daft.



I like your style !! Look forward to seeing it's progress.

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## ColeyS1 (21 Aug 2018)

johnnyb":kjtlc40i said:


> I'm glad your along for ride and the questions! I'll go and have another look at the old one just to make sure it will all work. I wish I knew how to post photos now!
> I don't have a spindle so I'll rebate using the table saw and maybe the router table. I do have a dad for the saw but don't usually use it for rebates.



Yeah a rebates a rebate jb, any way that is consistent will be fine. I think photo bucket allow 3rd party hosting again now- perhaps that could be an option ?

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## johnnyb (22 Aug 2018)

I started by sawing out the rebates. I decided to go for 42mm by 13mm as I wasn't putting draughtstrip in and par fifths is 44mm and it will give me a bit to straighten out.( For the casements) they came out really well but I will clean up with a rebate plane as coley says the finish is slightly inferior but I reckon if the timbers straight and square then the rebates are consistent. The unsorted was ok but some had pith and splits of it. I guess unsorted means just that but 15 ft lengths of 9×3 is difficult to go through so I picked the darker one that had less sapwood. No idea if that's how it's done but it made sense at the time!
Next I sawed the 9 degree cill. This turned out really well and was easy on a left tilt saw. The finish was good on this bit. The uprights had an angle on one side and the mullions on both sides. I set the saw over to 30 degrees then made the cuts coleys seemed to be 32.4 but I knew what I was aiming for. the key is to leave enough flat to not interfere with the tenon sides. These will need a clean up with a jack. 
I then did the mortices using whatever the chisel was that was in the machine about 16 mm but imperial!


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## johnnyb (22 Aug 2018)

So tomorrow I'll do then tenons. I usually do this with the table saw and a dado set or a table saw and bandsaw. I'll also get the wood for the casements.


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## ColeyS1 (22 Aug 2018)

Sounds like you're making lightening progress Jb ! Are you gonna put any moulds on the casements or just leave them square ?

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## johnnyb (22 Aug 2018)

I'm gonna put some moulds on definitely. I've been out all day inand around) buxton but snatched some time early evening. We went past what i think was Jacobs old workshop at one stage! Small world. I've no idea where he works now though. I could hear the sash fillester on the wind!
I've got a really nice moulding plane that I'm tempted to try on the casements it's quite big though like a ogee with a quarter bead I've seen them as the inside mould on very late Victorian sashes. But this is how I get distracted! I'll stick with an ogee on the router. I definitely need to reread that bit especially the franking part. 
We had a Georgian bow window when we first moved in it was a replacement of the original. And very rotten. But it was a beauty. A built up circular cill with about 7 or 8 uprights. The cill was a chord of a circle but with 8 flats for the glass. I seem to remember the small glazing bars were nailed between the uprights as I'm sure they didn't have enough meat for proper joints.


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## johnnyb (23 Aug 2018)

Right today wasn't so good. I chopped the uprights to 42 1/2 inch. The height of the opening. The next bit went pear shaped ie cutting the tenon's. I cut the shoulders with a table saw then the cheeks with the bandsaw then the cill shoulder on the mitre saw. I really struggled to get the shoulders with the correct offset whilst keeping between the shoulders the same. Finally the 9 degree cill cut worked with regard to the angle but introduced another variable. Thinking about it I could have made a better job with a tenon saw. It's just too many cuts all of which need to be right. A tenoner allows you to get the offset right and adjust the fit before you make the critical cut whilst all the time indexing between the shoulders. I would also not make the angled cuts on the uprights until after the tenon's we're cut as on the mullions the upright rests on a small section that makes it unstable when bandsawing the cheeks. 
I guess some blocks could be made to set the tenon offset so that one fence setting could index the offset but the tenon shoulders are different heights as well! Making testing the fit tricky.
Yes I would do the tenon's by hand then run the cheeks on the bandsaw. This would allow a test fit on the back of the headeg no rebate 
Also plane a fence spacer so I could use one fence setting on the bandsaw. All very complicated I know!
Offset shoulders what a pita.


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## johnnyb (24 Aug 2018)

I also noticed when I put the window together small gaps either side of the mullion tenons. I had morticed to the lines. In softwood I reckon it's best to mortice a tiny bit inside. This will crush the tenon a bit and may swell with gluing. 
Today I'll remake the uprights and have another go. And get the timber for the casements. And some aluminium primer.


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## ColeyS1 (24 Aug 2018)

How much smaller would you need to make the windows to reuse the uprights you already have ? Sounds like you've got plenty of drive that's keeping the job going forward !
If I was doing the tenons without a tenoner I'd cut the uprights to length first, then looking at using stops to ensure the shoulder lines are in the same place on each. I bet it's looking good !

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## johnnyb (24 Aug 2018)

It's about 1/4 inch smaller but I'd measured a bit small as well. It's a chunky monkey right enough. Am I right thinking the stop to establish the shoulder offset would just be the depth of the rebate.thats seems right to me because it's the same side of the blade( no kerf allowance)
Also when I sawed the angled cill shoulder this opened a gap on the straight shoulder making everything even shorter.so that will need doing in a different order as well.
I'm guessing the bottom bit of the casements is angled 9 degrees to match the cill.


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## ColeyS1 (24 Aug 2018)

Yes that's correct, the shoulder offset is the depth of your rebate, also you're right about the bottom of the casement having a 9 degree bevel. I'd have thought sticking half inch on the top or the bottom would be a decent enough fix and would save having to remake the uprights 

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## ColeyS1 (24 Aug 2018)

I think I'd be inclined to get the position of your shoulders a bit like -






Cut your uprights to length. If you were to use the tablesaw fence (shorten it if possible) this would ensure consistent cuts. If you had a batch of different sized windows you could still push them all through at the same time. So longs you've got a setup piece (eg a piece of mdf 94mm wide) you could jiggle the fence position about a bit until the setup piece fitted then without moving anything push through the rest.

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## johnnyb (24 Aug 2018)

Having got to this stage I'm determined to make a window with no cock ups. I was a bit over eager yesterday and grabbed at it. But I can visualise your idea with the mdf. Also the 9 degree shoulder on the table saw. Combined with the bandsaw and the fence packer ( the tenon plus the kerf) should result in a true frame! 
The tenoner is an interesting machine almost entirely tailored for these offset shoulders on Windows and doors. (With scribes on three heads)I was flying till I got to them rascals!


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## ColeyS1 (24 Aug 2018)

Did you bevel the head aswell.. ? 
Tenoners are fantastic machines. I recently had 3 different jobs that all required the same ovolo mould. It took me about 3 hrs to set the scriber up perfectly but then as fast as I could push them through they tenoned, scribed, done. I booked out an hour each job for setting up the scriber it must have saved hours perhaps even days of hand fitting. You sound like you don't like to compromise on quality and like a job being done properly- top man! Perhaps you could cut some casement parts from the uprights? 

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## johnnyb (24 Aug 2018)

Now that's an idea casements from the uprights.no the head is a normal rebate. Surely it would encourage water through the window. 
It may seem slightly pig headed not to stick 1/2 inch on top. But it's a useful exercise in joinery with a nice result. I'm occasionally called on to make similar stuff doorframes etc and usually just saw the rebate negative in the jamb plenty of Pu glue and those washer head spax screws. They seem to last ok. But it's not entirely satisfactory.


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## ColeyS1 (24 Aug 2018)

A normal rebate for the casement is right for the head, I meant on the inside as a mould  
That's the thing about frames, doors and windows. Once you've got the knack of making one, the rest are all pretty similar. It gets a bit more interesting when you've gotta stop rebates and have gunstock shoulders etc but the majority of the time it's following the same routine. 

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## ColeyS1 (24 Aug 2018)

johnnyb said:


> It may seem slightly pig headed not to stick 1/2 inch on top. But it's a useful exercise in joinery with a nice result.
> 
> 
> > That sounds like a perfectly good reason !
> ...


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## johnnyb (24 Aug 2018)

Ok we have a frame( at last) I've remade the uprights and sawed them more carefully this time! Using a spacer on the table saw and a fence spacer on the band saw. I cleaned up everything with a bench plane and a rebate plane. I must say the new redwood was much nicer than the first chunk just less resinous it finished even through the planer beautifully although it didn't smell as nice as the first chunk. I've drilled for the screws and countersunk. I'll glue it together using titebond 3. It's a really chunky frame and very heavy. I'll put a mortar groove in tomorrow using the dado on the table saw. 
A bit of light reading care of coley to bone up on casement making!
Just an aside to anyone considering making this frame sawing the shoulders with a tenon saw would be very doable. Unsorted redwood when it's good is really good. It planes like butter and gleams. I can imagine making sashes by hand would be nice using this stuff.
Jb


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## johnnyb (25 Aug 2018)

Rereading coleys post I seem to have missed a few bits. Ie coley makes his tenon's smaller to conceal his gaps( how did I miss this?) 
I'm also understanding what you did with the angled cill cut and the pair of compasses! 
I think I tend to scan stuff quickly then crack on. On second reading after doing it wrong( differently) I completely understand.


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## johnnyb (25 Aug 2018)

Just worked out the price of my unsorted redwood it was £20 per cubic foot inclusive. Seems expensive to me but the other yards wanted more. It was a 9×3 by 15ft lump.
I've glued up this morning. I didn't use titebond I used a great product for repairing Timber called repaircare. It's a thin epoxy followed by a thick epoxy that's quite rubbery.
It's used for repairs and splicing but 1 I've got some and I'm sure it goes off 2. It works by strongly adhering to both timbers then bridging the Gap with a flexible product. I reckon it might be a good choice.
3. Usually you use loads but gluing a window will use hardly any.
4. Repaircare offer a 10 year guarantee on repairs.i bet no one's ever claimed on that one.
5.i can dribble the thin stuff in a crack in the cill. 
I've used the thin stuff as glue before and it stains and won't unstain. Its water thin.


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## johnnyb (25 Aug 2018)

Just worked out the price of my unsorted redwood it was £20 per cubic foot inclusive. Seems expensive to me but the other yards wanted more. It was a 9×3 by 15ft lump.
I've glued up this morning. I didn't use titebond I used a great product for repairing Timber called repaircare. It's a thin epoxy followed by a thick epoxy that's quite rubbery.
It's used for repairs and splicing but 1 I've got some and I'm sure it goes off 2. It works by strongly adhering to both timbers then bridging the Gap with a flexible product. I reckon it might be a good choice.
3. Usually you use loads but gluing a window will use hardly any.
4. Repaircare offer a 10 year guarantee on repairs.i bet no one's ever claimed on that one.
5.i can dribble the thin stuff in a crack in the cill. 
I've used the thin stuff as glue before and it stains and won't unstain. Its water thin.


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## johnnyb (25 Aug 2018)

The reason it seemed expensive was the same yard sold 9×1 par for £1 a foot. The 9×3 is 2.50 a foot. I imagine they would get 3 9×1 from this. So to deep rip and plane allround there charging .17p a foot.


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## Chip shop (25 Aug 2018)

They won't get 3 number 9 by 1 out of a piece of 9 by 3...especially if it's to be PAR. I'd imagine, even if they've got a Gucci re-saw, the best they can expect is 2.

Even if they could somehow make up for the saw kerf, 17p a foot for re-sawing and chucking it through the 4-cutter doesn't seem unreasonable.


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## johnnyb (25 Aug 2018)

I was reckoning my 9×3 was a bit pricey. It's probably a recurring theme in any of my posts! It's something i can't really change so why it bothers me I've no idea! There resaw was a slightly dodgy Robinson btw!


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## Chip shop (25 Aug 2018)

If I buy 9 * 3 * 15ft a couple at a time I pay about £36 + vat per length.


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## ColeyS1 (25 Aug 2018)

johnnyb":2byeduoj said:


> Rereading coleys post I seem to have missed a few bits. Ie coley makes his tenon's smaller to conceal his gaps( how did I miss this?)
> I'm also understanding what you did with the angled cill cut and the pair of compasses!
> I think I tend to scan stuff quickly then crack on. On second reading after doing it wrong( differently) I completely understand.


It'll still be a decent frame with out the smaller tenons Jb. I'm the same with it taking a few reads to properly get the grasp of something 

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## ColeyS1 (25 Aug 2018)

johnnyb":mu3x08ju said:


> I can imagine making sashes by hand would be nice using this stuff.
> Jb


Where I did my apprenticeship 95% of any joinery they made was softwood. Even though the majority was done with machines I'd spend days fitting/scribing door and window moulds. I use to enjoy doing single glazed windows the most with multiple panes. It was always good after cutting & scribing each vertical glazing bar (between the horizontals) then see everything close up tight when it was assembled. I found it a bit of a leap changing over to hardwood but now I find that easier to work with- probably because I'm more familiar with it now.

Keep the progress reports coming !



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## johnnyb (27 Aug 2018)

I'm just casting around for a suitable arrangement to mould, rebate and mortice my casements. The router cutters I've got are based on 45degrees normal ogees and roundovers. These are only going into my 42mm casements about 7mm which leaves the mortises to close to the moulded edge. Also it leaves a 23mm×7mm rebate bit to deep. Will this cause problems? I can see why Grecian flat ogees are used as they can be 8mm deep but push the mortice and tenon further toward the middle. Sash making bits aren't that pricey but I guess I could use a bigger cutter that goes in 10-12mm and have stepped shoulders.


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## ColeyS1 (27 Aug 2018)

Like you say a bigger ovolo would help push the mortise over. Its not an issue as all yours are fixed but If you were having them open you'd just need to make sure there was a big enough flat for the casement fastener to screw on. 
It's a bit more work (and will test your setting up skills lol) but how about a small ovolo cutter than increasing it slightly with a second cut.






It'd save getting another cutter and might allow you to still have square shoulders.

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## johnnyb (27 Aug 2018)

I'll run one like you say a nice combination will allow straight shoulders. What is an ideal glazing rebate. I think yours were 7 by 18. I should manage this if I extend to about 12mm. That will be 12.5mortice + 18 rebate=11.5mm mould about 7mm deep. I'll try it out tomorrow. Cheers coley
Jb


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## johnnyb (27 Aug 2018)

The trouble with ready made cutters is there designed for certain sizes usually a bit thinner I think. At least this way I can make it work.


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## ColeyS1 (27 Aug 2018)

johnnyb":2asfn029 said:


> I'll run one like you say a nice combination will allow straight shoulders. What is an ideal glazing rebate. I think yours were 7 by 18. I should manage this if I extend to about 12mm. That will be 12.5mortice + 18 rebate=11.5mm mould about 7mm deep. I'll try it out tomorrow. Cheers coley
> Jb


I don't think there's really an ideal glazing rebate for single glazed putty. The bedding in on putty and panel pins alone should prevent the glass falling out. I think you've kind of sussed out the reason already for the dimensions. Ive never seen single glazed casements any thicker than ex 2 inch (44-45mm) but have seen them as thin as 35mm. A half inch tennon fairly centrally spaced allows for a decent strength joint, the rest is just working to that. I guess having putty at a reasonably steep angle helps draw the water away more effeciently. 

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## johnnyb (31 Aug 2018)

I haven't abandoned just I've had to do some paying work heaven forbid! As soon as that's done I'll be back on it. Just finished painting the frame. I treated it with Sika wood preserver(water based) bin sealer on the knots. Pre 2010 primer(actually sets) oil based. Then crown grey undercoat ( new stuff) terrible never sets. I had some pre 2010 undercoat( just run out) and it's great it provide a great build and is very easily flatted. The top coat will be little Greene oil gloss. This stuff is really nice very opaque and has a lovely gloss. It also takes for ever dry


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