# Truth about A2 vs O1?



## LuptonM (4 Oct 2011)

There seem to be differing opinions of A2 vs O1 steel on the Internet. Some say that A2 does not get as sharp, but I am having problems noticing the difference.

I've just sharpened my veritas A2 iron (in my college accommodation!). I've seemed to have lost my razor, and have developed a small growth of hair on my face- hmmmmmmmm what could I use???? 







(sharpened using 2000/5000 grit Jap stones, 12k Chinese, then Chromium Oxide rubbed onto a flat piece of wood)

Seemed to shave fine- maybe even more sharp then the old chisels I've recently sharpened. I don't know exactly what the problem with A2 is- seems to stay alot sharper than them Stanley blades when working wood as well. Haven't experimented with grinding angles but Rob Cosman says edge retention is even good at 17 degrees. Is all the A2 stuff BS or is there some truth in it?

Is their a difference between Lie Nielsen A2 steel and Veritas A2 steel?

PS: I am mad enough to shave my facial hair with woodworking tools. One beard was destroyed in the making of this thread


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## Mark A (4 Oct 2011)

LuptonM":zx0dm7y3 said:


> PS: I am mad enough to shave my facial hair with woodworking tools. One beard was destroyed in the making of this thread



That's nothing - I shaved my right leg from the knee down with my axe once! Bad idea as it made me look like a poofter. And the edge chipped very easily.


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## jimi43 (4 Oct 2011)

mark aspin":2ufa6nob said:


> LuptonM":2ufa6nob said:
> 
> 
> > PS: I am mad enough to shave my facial hair with woodworking tools. One beard was destroyed in the making of this thread
> ...



But at least if anyone took the mickey you could chop their head off! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Try T10 QS steel Lupton....it's rather impressive!

Jim


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## woodbloke (5 Oct 2011)

I'm no expert in this area and for a more detailed metalurgical analysis, Matt from WH is your boy, but apparently A2 steel is completely different in it's 'make up' at the cutting edge, compared to standard O1 steels. I tried out my A2 LN chisels (before I sold them) with my newly acquired Jap chisels and honed both to 30deg using my SS system. I tested each edge on some nasty shed pine, taking off end grain slices. There wasn't much doubt in my mind that although each cut very well, there was some deformation of the end grain with A2 whereas there was none with the O1 and the O1 was effortless to push through the timber - Rob


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## tomatwark (5 Oct 2011)

I found with my LN block plane with an A2 blade that while I could get the blade sharp enough to shave with, it did not hold a good edge for long.

Following a thread on here saying a QS blade ( which I know is not O1 ) from Workshop Heaven would fit I bought one and I have to say that it keeps a good edge alot longer.

There must be something in it otherwise the manufacturers would not be offering an alternative.

Tom


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## LuptonM (5 Oct 2011)

woodbloke":3pb5s4oj said:


> I'm no expert in this area and for a more detailed metalurgical analysis, Matt from WH is your boy, but apparently A2 steel is completely different in it's 'make up' at the cutting edge, compared to standard O1 steels. I tried out my A2 LN chisels (before I sold them) with my newly acquired Jap chisels and honed both to 30deg using my SS system. I tested each edge on some nasty shed pine, taking off end grain slices. There wasn't much doubt in my mind that although each cut very well, there was some deformation of the end grain with A2 whereas there was none with the O1 and the O1 was effortless to push through the timber - Rob



Which Japanese chisels did you get? The reason I ask is that I am thinking of getting a decent set of chisels for the primary purpose of dovetails - so a set of Lie Nielsen chisels (O1 or A2) might be on the books (its going to be a birthday + Christmas combination so its more of an indulgence). The problem with Japanese chisels is that the sides are too fat - unless you grind the shoulders down


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## woodbloke (5 Oct 2011)

LuptonM":2xrvhvof said:


> woodbloke":2xrvhvof said:
> 
> 
> > I'm no expert in this area and for a more detailed metalurgical analysis, Matt from WH is your boy, but apparently A2 steel is completely different in it's 'make up' at the cutting edge, compared to standard O1 steels. I tried out my A2 LN chisels (before I sold them) with my newly acquired Jap chisels and honed both to 30deg using my SS system. I tested each edge on some nasty shed pine, taking off end grain slices. There wasn't much doubt in my mind that although each cut very well, there was some deformation of the end grain with A2 whereas there was none with the O1 and the O1 was effortless to push through the timber - Rob
> ...


The Jap dovetailing chisels I use are the ones from Axminster and are very good. I only use them for doing d/t's so they have a single bevel of 25deg (they're not struck with anything like a mallet or hammer) and I've also cut off the hoops and dowled on a slightly longer extension in English Walnut - Rob


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## condeesteso (5 Oct 2011)

Interesting - I have been using my chisels a lot very recently on some big joints in ash. I have a couple of observations from my own experience.

First, the LN A2 chisels - very tough, but don't shave (end grain, say) like the carbon steel ones (Japanese laminated, old U.S. Stanleys and old Marples which are surprisingly good I find). I can't explain this or measure it, but I feel a difference in use.

Second, the maker. The blade (A2) in my Veritas medium shoulder is phenomenal, and seems to outperform the Lies in all respects - particularly the fineness of edge and its durability. I allow for the fact that the shoulder doesn't work as hard as the blades in the Lie planes (a 3, a 62 and a 7 1/2) but it does feel like a good match for fine carbon steel blades.
I am now considering trying an O1 blade in one of the Lies.

Wonder if anyone has any subjective views on Veritas v the LN A2s??


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## mtr1 (5 Oct 2011)

Jimi is right, the T10 steel is a different class, and knocks spots off my LN A2. So much so I might convert all my planes to the T10, matthew told me its hardened to about RC63. I don't own any O1 so can't compare.


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## bugbear (6 Oct 2011)

mtr1":2r869v3a said:


> Jimi is right, the T10 steel is a different class, and knocks spots off my LN A2. So much so I might convert all my planes to the T10, matthew told me its hardened to about RC63. I don't own any O1 so can't compare.



I think "straight" O1 is actually quite rare - many of the old woodie plane blades are W1 (which can be very nice indeed).

BugBear


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## woodbloke (6 Oct 2011)

mtr1":2uz6abc0 said:


> Jimi is right, the T10 steel is a different class, and knocks spots off my LN A2. So much so I might convert all my planes to the T10, matthew told me its hardened to about RC63. I don't own any O1 so can't compare.


Matt from WH does a replacement T10 blade which will drop straight into a LN block plane (mine is the low angle) - Rob


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## Modernist (6 Oct 2011)

bugbear":3o8en2qj said:


> mtr1":3o8en2qj said:
> 
> 
> > Jimi is right, the T10 steel is a different class, and knocks spots off my LN A2. So much so I might convert all my planes to the T10, matthew told me its hardened to about RC63. I don't own any O1 so can't compare.
> ...




IIRC my Veritas LA and block planes came with O1 when specified. Some of the comments above again confirm the inferiority of A2 for sharpness and resistance to edge crumbling, although we continue to debate it, but just to confound the position my LN 4 1/2 from about 8 years ago uses A2 which has never been any problem at 30 deg and holds it's edge longer than any. I too find the Quangsheng blades outstanding in all respects and reasonably priced.


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## woodbloke (6 Oct 2011)

Modernist":3rf502rd said:


> ... but just to confound the position my LN 4 1/2 from about 8 years ago uses A2 which has never been any problem at 30 deg and holds it's edge longer than any.


...and my LN block plane, bought at the last Ax show was also supplied with an A2 blade, which at 30deg crumbled and the resulting debris left nasty scratches in the sole. Doesn't affect the way the plane works, it just looks awful  - Rob


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## Modernist (6 Oct 2011)

woodbloke":2yo4bf4y said:


> Doesn't affect the way the plane works, it just looks awful  - Rob



Surely that is preventing the plane from working!

My LN140 A2 wouldn't cut end grain Douglas Fir at 30 deg without breaking up - useless. I sold it in disgust (it not being cheap) and replaced it with a Veritas Skew Block O1 which is better in every respect not least the absence of flex in the sole. As stated previously I have found I can sharpen Veritas O1 at 27 deg and deal with hard end grain (eg Am Cherry) without problems.


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## LuptonM (6 Oct 2011)

Apparently Veritas do not cryogenically heat treat their A2 blades but Lie Nielsen do. Most people seem to be complaining about Lie Nielsen A2 steel. Interesting


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2011)

I'm in trouble now.....

Annie came back from work at lunch today and found me on the outside steps, shaving the hairs off my thigh with my Ward and Payne axe....  

She was about to have me committed but when I said I was trying something I read on UKW she said "oh...that lot...that explains it...."  :mrgreen: 



jim


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## condeesteso (6 Oct 2011)

Wow! I have tried that kind of thing with plane blades before now (with mixed results) but never with an axe. I assume it's quite sharp then?


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## markturner (6 Oct 2011)

Which replacement irons on the market are in A2 and which are 01? Looking at the Hock irons I can see they are "high carbon" or A2 cryo treated choice. Is this yet more variation? Cosman IBC irons seem to A2 cryo as well.

Cheers, Mark


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## woodbloke (6 Oct 2011)

markturner":3rnzrrui said:


> Which replacement irons on the market are in A2 and which are 01? Looking at the Hock irons I can see they are "high carbon" or A2 cryo treated choice. Is this yet more variation? Cosman IBC irons seem to A2 cryo as well.
> 
> Cheers, Mark


All the ones that are sold at Workshop Heaven are either O1 (Cliffie's) or the QS oil tempered blades (T10) with one or two Ray Isles blades as well... no A2 - Rob


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## Mark A (6 Oct 2011)

jimi43":31chm1qn said:


> I'm in trouble now.....
> 
> Annie came back from work at lunch today and found me on the outside steps, shaving the hairs off my thigh with my Ward and Payne axe....
> 
> ...



:lol: :lol: 

"Ward and Payne - The Best a Man Can Get"


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":305nvhhj said:


> Wow! I have tried that kind of thing with plane blades before now (with mixed results) but never with an axe. I assume it's quite sharp then?



Indubitably......







:mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## condeesteso (6 Oct 2011)

I don't come to UKW to view body hair. In future, words alone will suffice. Thank you.

AND, back on-thread... not all steels are the same of course. So A2 must vary. I remembered my 2 Veritas spokeshaves... same thing. Those Veritas A2 blades are very impressive indeed, and I feel they beat the Lie ones by a fair margin. They seem to sharpen and behave more like fine carbon-steel blades, but with added durability. Any views on Veritas v LN A2 blades welcome.


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":1lxju391 said:


> I don't come to UKW to view body hair. In future, words alone will suffice. Thank you.



I thought mine was a tad more subtle than Lupton's...at least mine doesn't look like I've murdered a yeti!!

:mrgreen: 

Jimi


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## mtr1 (6 Oct 2011)

woodbloke":3ilfdt7u said:


> mtr1":3ilfdt7u said:
> 
> 
> > Jimi is right, the T10 steel is a different class, and knocks spots off my LN A2. So much so I might convert all my planes to the T10, matthew told me its hardened to about RC63. I don't own any O1 so can't compare.
> ...



Funny thing is the blade in my LN block(LA) is superb, and has been since I bought it. I think the steel must be variable as the blade in my LN No4 is crumbly at present, that said I have only reground the blade once.


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## Alf (6 Oct 2011)

woodbloke":1w24hyqy said:


> ...the QS oil tempered blades (T10)


I understood the T10 was water hardening - and effectively the Chinese equivalent of the W1 of yore.

I've long fancied that the supposed advantages of "better" steels really come down less to the benefit for the end user, but more for ease of manufacture for the maker. A2 is, as I understand it, a lot easier to deal with than O1 - which is, in turn, less temperamental than W1.


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## condeesteso (6 Oct 2011)

Mark - good point re the LN block (and apron I have) - they are fabulous blades. I am less impressed with the blades in the 62 and 7 1/2 and I cannot explain why.
Any hands-on experience with the Lie O1 blades anywhere please??


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## jimi43 (6 Oct 2011)

Alf":2gkv4n1j said:


> woodbloke":2gkv4n1j said:
> 
> 
> > ...the QS oil tempered blades (T10)
> ...



You spotted the deliberate mistake ALF! I meant to type water and for some reason I typed oil! (homer) 

Edit......DOH!!! I see you quoted woodbloke and I didn't actually type "oil"...I thought I was going mad for a minute there! :mrgreen: 

Glad to see you're paying attention! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink: 

Jim


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## andrewgcook (6 Oct 2011)

evening all, 

I have a Hock high carbon blade AND a Hock A2 cryo version for a tuned up no 4. My experience is that they both take a wonderful edge (i hone at 32 degrees on a 8000 grit norton ) and leave a long grain surface which displays no discernable difference in quality. The high carbon just pips the A2 for end grain surface quality. I do find however, the sharpening process differs subtly in that the burr formed on the high carbon blade polishes away with one or two alternating (bevel and back) strokes whereas the burr on the A2 blade is often reluctant to polish away and seems to require eight or nine alternating strokes, each time with less pressure. The same can be said for my LN blades. The A2 hock does seem to hold its edge a little longer. 

thats all  

andy


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## bugbear (7 Oct 2011)

In the days of W1, no one thought all manufacturers' blades were the same; the laminating, forging, grinding and heat treatment were all taken very seriously, and some makers blades were esteemed for their performance over others.

I see no reason that A2 (or indeed modern O1) should not vary in similar fashion.

On the "I can get it shaving sharp" front, it might be worth recalling that the Romans shaved with razors made of bronze!

BugBear


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## woodbloke (7 Oct 2011)

Alf":2y3s2hf2 said:


> woodbloke":2y3s2hf2 said:
> 
> 
> > ...the QS oil tempered blades (T10)
> ...


Your no doubt correct Al...my mistook  Water hardened and not oil - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (7 Oct 2011)

Of course, us Clifton users never have to worry about all this crumbly blade stuff because Clifton make their blades properly. Just hone the blades at whatever angle you like and off you go  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (7 Oct 2011)

Paul Chapman":3ly7mw70 said:


> Of course, us Clifton users never have to worry about all this crumbly blade stuff because Clifton make their blades properly. Just hone the blades at whatever angle you like and off you go
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



...making sure that you remove the :-$ _'you know wot' _ :lol: from the blade before it's honed - Rob


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## Fromey (7 Oct 2011)

You all speak in a foreign tongue to me. Is there an silly person's guide to steel hardness, etc. that explains the naming system (A2, O1, T10, WD40, etc.)


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## bugbear (7 Oct 2011)

Fromey":3f5la3ae said:


> You all speak in a foreign tongue to me. Is there an silly person's guide to steel hardness, etc. that explains the naming system (A2, O1, T10, WD40, etc.)



The really simple version is - any plane blade costing over 25 quid from a reputable maker will work well.

After that it gets complex. Most of the names are related to the chemical composition or heat treatment of the steel, and while this certainly is related to the performance and properties of the steel, the relationship is very far from simple.

And woodworkers only use a tiny sample of the full range of modern tool steels.

Click here and wait ...

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php

BugBear


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## jimi43 (7 Oct 2011)

There are a number of properties that the woodworker is looking for in any steel they use and the main ones are:

1) The hardness

2) The ease of sharpening

3) The length of time a honed edge remains sharp

4) The angle at which the bevel can be cut before it "crumbles"

Steel is an alloy of iron and many other elements and compounds. The compositions and way that these compositions are hardened, quenched and tempered cause the steel in question to have various qualities. Since some of the qualities above are in opposition to each other e.g. a hard steel is not easy to sharpen....there is always a compromise and the various steels you see mentioned here are those compromises.

There is never a "right" or "perfect" steel as factors like how the steel is used and even cost come into play. For the woodwork I do and for what I consider a reasonable price, T10 water quenched steel is about the best I have found....

Next comes 01 or "tool" steel...a traditional carbon steel used for many decades.

For the rest of the list Google any of them or get a book on metallurgy - a modern one!

Steel is probably the most adaptable material on the planet and has many uses and many formulae....to generalise would not do it justice.

Jim


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## dunbarhamlin (7 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":qefn0a9e said:


> Any hands-on experience with the Lie O1 blades anywhere please??


I swapped in LN O1 for my LN LA blocks (60 1/2 and 140) as soon as it became available (ordered direct - the 140 was a special order, don't know if it's a stock part now.) Don't remember prep being at all arduous. Guess I hone at around 25°. Edges hold up fine and nice and easy to freshen up.


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## Jacob (7 Oct 2011)

bugbear":2rdotlbz said:


> ....
> 
> The really simple version is - any plane blade costing over 25 quid from a reputable maker will work well........


And most cheap ones also work fine also in my experience. In fact I've never encountered one which wasn't usable. Some lose an edge quicker, but then they are easier to sharpen, etc.
You have to do a helluva lot of planing with different planes and set-ups side by side to really notice the difference.
Except occasionally my LV LA smoother definitely has the edge on some difficult materials, but it's most likely the design and not the steel in my opinion. Could be wrong.


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## custard (7 Oct 2011)

No mention of rust resistance. Surprising given that many on this forum use their tools only occasionally and store them in unheated sheds and garages. 

A2 has about ten times the chrome content of O1 which gives it significantly better rust resistance, interestingly it doesn't make it any shinier! I find the most dramatic mirror surfaces tend to come with O1/W1 steels.

I've got a couple of Holtey S53 irons, they're even more abrasion resistant than A2, and consequently are a pipper to sharpen, I tend to use them for planing teak or man made sheet material which blunt other blades too quickly.


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