# Darkening a woodstain?



## phil p (20 Sep 2015)

Hi,

I'm after some advice regading a woodstain.

Basically a doorway has been closed up and Ive been trying to match a new lenth of dado rail along the full wall to match the existing colour, but so far, not been easy.

The existing is a very dark mahogany and and I did have an old "Colron" wood dye that was good match that I used to touch up with now and again when I decorated, so I just bought the same stuff once I had used it, however it's a totally different colour, more like a dark red (Mahogany) but the existing is a lot darker, and seems more "browner".

I have given the new rail several coats but it's just going a darker red.

My question is...Is there anything I could add to darken this woodstain to try and match the colour of the existing?

Thanks
Phil


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## sammy.se (20 Sep 2015)

Van dyke crystals. You can have Very good control on darkness via level of dilution or number of coats, plus you can add ink to it to get various colour tints


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## Sgian Dubh (21 Sep 2015)

Adding green will 'kill' the redness. Adding black will give you a darker shade. If you have stains or dyes in these colours, try experimenting by adding a little of them to the stain you already have and compare the difference these additions make on some scrap. It makes sense to keep a record of the proportions used so you can reproduce a successful mix in the future. Syringes and measuring cups help with this. 

Obviously none of this will help if you don't have the other colours I mentioned, but they are available from finish suppliers. If you need to buy them, just make sure they use a solvent compatible with your Colron stain, e.g., spirit dye or stain is compatible with both oil and spirit stain, but not with water stain, and water stain is only compatible with other water stains. Slainte.


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## sammy.se (23 Sep 2015)

Can you dissolve van dyke crystals in spirits? (I.e. not water?) Or is it strictly water based?


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## Sgian Dubh (23 Sep 2015)

sammy.se":3hd1ienu said:


> Can you dissolve van dyke crystals in spirits? (I.e. not water?) Or is it strictly water based?


Van Dyke crystals are dissolved in water, although I do seem to remember coming across a spirit soluble variety at one time, but I'm fairly sure my memory is playing tricks, and it was probably spirit soluble walnut dye powder! That's an alternative you might consider, because walnut dye or stain is available in both water and spirit forms, either as a powder, or as full strength dissolved solutions in containers ranging from about 0.5 or 1 litre upwards, e.g., 2.5, 5, 10, and 25 litres. Slainte.


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## beech1948 (23 Sep 2015)

phil p,

Where are you phil p. ? I ask because I would advise you to get along to your nearest available woody things specialist shop and look at the stains and dyes on offer.

Ask the assistants there.

Call a technical support line at one of the main suppliers.


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## [email protected] (23 Sep 2015)

phil p":2cf6ksff said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm after some advice regading a woodstain.
> 
> ...



old colron stain is oil based and has quite a good depth of colour, new colron stain now being sold in its place due to eco rules in BQ etc is water based and has no depth whatsoever so the products are like chalk and cheese. You could try and locate a tin of old colron (read the side of tin for how to wash brushes out , it should say white spirit and the stain should stink) Failing that this query is impossible to answer as it depends what colour the original dado is ie is it opaque or is the grain showing through. You could experiment with oil based stains from trade suppliers (same as old colron) but would need to buy a small can for each colour until you have a good match and that will cost you a fortune. You can use all manner of materials to adjust colour inc vandyke, spirit powder in shellac polish, powder water stain in diluted PVA, tinted varnishes, but most of these need a pro touch. If you can find a french polisher or restorer, they would be able to match it at a price but be aware of the colour fading after a year or so especially if the dado is in sunlight. Personally I would paint it!! ...... job done and perfect match all round...


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## Grumpygn0me (24 Sep 2015)

Rustins still make a spirit based stain, i bought some a couple of weeks ago from
restexpress but as a newbie here I cant post the full link


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## phil p (29 Sep 2015)

Thanks for all the replies lads, I decided to try the Rustins "spirit based" stain before anything else, I was going down the Van Dyke crystals route but thought I would try this stain first.

Just tried this Rustins, and to be honest there wasn't a great deal of difference, however I'm not sure if Ive been my worst enemy!!

The lenth of dado I have been trying to match up I gave it a really good sanding until it was as smooth as babys bum before staining it for the first time and think this could possibly be the problem as I also just tried the same stain on a piece of scrap pine that had not been sanded and had rougher grain, and there was really quite a difference to where the colour was quite near to what I want, and I'm sure when this drys and I give it another coat the colour match will be achieved!

Would this be correct?

Would there be a difference in colour if the wood was sanded to unsanded?, could I have sealed the grain with sanding preventing it colouring correctly.

It does seem likely as the rest of the dado fitted in the room doesn't look like it was sanded down, (as Ive just felt it, it's not dead rough but a lot rougher than the lenth I sanded) before it was fitted.

Could this be right as I can't understand how it would make a difference?

Obviously I don't mind buying a new lenth of dado to get the colour match, and I won't sand it! 

Any ideas, could I have botched by over sanding it?

Thanks
Phil


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## Zeddedhed (29 Sep 2015)

Not sure how or why this happens but I too have noticed that stains/dyes etc (even oil) appears differently depending on how smooth something is sanded.

I've been told that Oil finishes are least effective on a highly sanded surface (over 220g)

Osmo themselves suggest only going to 120g, so it could well be that this is what you are experiencing.

Although like I said I don't know how or why for sure. I'm sure someone out there knows the science.


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## Sgian Dubh (29 Sep 2015)

Rougher wood has more places for the pigments in stain to lodge, and that is a likely contributory factor. I'm assuming the well sanded piece didn't come out as dark as the 'rough' piece. You get a similar effect with dye, where take up of the colour is more pronounced in 'rougher', or less well prepped wood. 

The Rustin's product I found at their website is labelled a wood dye, but it seems to really be a stain. I say this because their Data Sheet describes the product as microfine pigments and binders (linseed oil or varnish probably). It also talks about stirring and shaking well prior to use to disperse the pigments evenly, and to stir the product during use. If it was truly a dye, there wouldn't be any undissolved pigments to distribute evenly. Essentially, the more places there are for the pigments to lodge, the greater the effect of the stain. Slainte.


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## rafezetter (5 Oct 2015)

Sgian Dubh":3h2276fh said:


> Rougher wood has more places for the pigments in stain to lodge, and that is a likely contributory factor. I'm assuming the well sanded piece didn't come out as dark as the 'rough' piece. You get a similar effect with dye, where take up of the colour is more pronounced in 'rougher', or less well prepped wood.
> 
> The Rustin's product I found at their website is labelled a wood dye, but it seems to really be a stain. I say this because their Data Sheet describes the product as microfine pigments and binders (linseed oil or varnish probably). It also talks about stirring and shaking well prior to use to disperse the pigments evenly, and to stir the product during use. If it was truly a dye, there wouldn't be any undissolved pigments to distribute evenly. Essentially, the more places there are for the pigments to lodge, the greater the effect of the stain. Slainte.



^^ this - as you sand finer and finer you are forcing same coloured wood flour into the places the stain would ordinarily go - it's the same principle as not sanding too fine where glue will be used, and why endgrain always goes much darker when stained than the rest of the wood. Tack cloths are not enough to drag this flour out, I would suggest wiping over several times with white spirit, being fairly generous with the application of spirit to try to "wash out" the flour.

You might even try wiping it over with hot water to raise the grain a bit, but don't sand before applying the dye.


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## [email protected] (5 Oct 2015)

add washing soda crystals (only a few ie one teaspoon to 5 litres) to hot water and wash down the rail with that then as said let dry without sanding just mop up surplus wet with kitchen towel. Fully drying with heat gun will leave as much roughness as is possible....


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