# The price some people charge - a personal rant!



## Glynne (3 Jul 2013)

As well as entry to the Gardeners World Exhibition (yes I know I spoil her), you gain free entry to the BBC Good Food show which is interesting despite most things being over-priced. 
However I came across this one exhibitor who I thought was "having a laugh" and taking advantage of being at a well known show. 
Oh no - Have a look at the prices! 
http://www.naturallycreated.co.uk 

Bear in mind these are essentially flat boards with perhaps the edges rounded (obviously by their craftsmen!). I've no doubt many of you will have scrapped bigger lumps of wood. 
Nothing special about the finish - the guy thought it might be Osmo oil but wasn't sure. 

I did feel a bit guilty at the time as I might just have been described as a bit of a nuisance (chuffing big one actually) - but the guy did condescendingly suggest if I wanted to know what the wood was, there was a label on the back. I didn't actually swear and passers-by were impressed by the speed my wife fog-marched me away, but the prices are an insult to proper crafttsmen.


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## doctor Bob (3 Jul 2013)

Glynne":260aidr5 said:


> but the prices are an insult to proper crafttsmen.



Why?

Supply and demand, if he's making so much money why don't you undercut him by £5 a board and become a rich man.

Looks to me like you were the one doing the insulting if your wife had to drag you away ..... what an earth has it got to do with you?


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## marcros (3 Jul 2013)

Each board has some provenance to it, I actually like them. If they are too much then he wont sell any.

The only thing that puts me off is knowing that i have the tools to make one myself- if not then I think that they are well priced.


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## paulm (3 Jul 2013)

marcros":2h9xpgar said:


> Each board has some provenance to it, I actually like them. If they are too much then he wont sell any.
> 
> The only thing that puts me off is knowing that i have the tools to make one myself- if not then I think that they are well priced.



Likewise, just what I was about to type but beaten to it  

Cheers, Paul


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## cambournepete (3 Jul 2013)

Same here - I like them and think the prices are reasonable. Remember they are hand made, so probably an hour for each, maybe more, plus buying the wood, tools, sandpaper, marketing, selling etc.


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## Sheffield Tony (3 Jul 2013)

I was expecting to see higher numbers than that to justify a rant. Mind you, I just finished an end-grain beech board for meat carving, with a groove around the edge and well for catching juices, using just hand tools. I'd want _at least _the top end of their prices before I'd do it again !

I thought that the provenance of the wood was faintly amusing. All wood comes from a tree that grew somewhere, after all. I can picture these being used in trendy cafes - I've recently had food served on a wooden board, on a bit of slate looking suspiciously like a roof tile ... what is wrong with a plate these days ? Not sure I like the natural edge for food use. Interesting too that they say the finish is olive oil - I thought that was not preferred because it goes rancid ?


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## Jacob (3 Jul 2013)

Glynne":38a2u1v5 said:


> ....., but the prices are an insult to proper crafttsmen.


I'd say the prices were very good news for proper craftsman (and improper ones too!). Higher the better IMO, if you can get it.
NB there is a big element of marketing in these - it ain't cheap.


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## bugbear (3 Jul 2013)

Jacob":ioa8lczj said:


> I'd say the prices were very good news for proper craftsman (and improper ones too!). Higher the better IMO, if you can get it.
> NB there is a big element of marketing in these - it ain't cheap.



I agree with Mr Jacob Butler - caveat emptor. If customers are dumb enough to buy into the hype and waffle, why turn down their money?

BugBear


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## Reggie (3 Jul 2013)

Isn't it things like this that inspire people to make stuff themselves? I have to agree with Glynne that I think a lot of things are over valued, of course there is a market there and people are willing to pay that much for one but I can't see me ever needing a £75 chopping board, that's 3 weeks worth of food....

There is a lot of spiel on the site, especially the 'quite simply unique' tag, like every single piece of wood out there, I expected to see 'This isn't just a chopping board, this is a <insert annoying retailer name> chopping board' on there somewhere.


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## maltrout512 (3 Jul 2013)

I don't think there over priced... why not buy one of these to use with one off those boards http://www.japaneseknifecompany.com/KNIVES/TRADITIONALJAPANESE/TAKAYUKITRADITIONAL/YANAGIBA.aspx


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## RogerBoyle (3 Jul 2013)

I like most others clicked the link to see just how much he was ripping the people off .

Like most of the other posts I fail to see where the ripoff is 

TBH reading what you gave written I dont think I would have shown the same patience as he did 

Roger


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## bugbear (3 Jul 2013)

maltrout512":3pt72ocn said:


> I don't think there over priced... why not buy one of these to use with one off those boards http://www.japaneseknifecompany.com/KNIVES/TRADITIONALJAPANESE/TAKAYUKITRADITIONAL/YANAGIBA.aspx



That's not a knife; this is a knife.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/Mizun ... ml#Honyaki

BugBear (with apologies to Crocodile Dundee)


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jul 2013)

Crocodile BB.?


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## Racers (3 Jul 2013)

Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJcMDG8zjoc

Pete


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## iNewbie (3 Jul 2013)

The more I read their site the more my wallet clamped-up like a clam...


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## woodiedonald (3 Jul 2013)

Its the high end of the market, horses for courses! Prices aint that crazy, 30-40 quid approx. for a basic one. The one thing i'm against is the fact that they have ring porus wood and character wood like pippy oak there and with the bark left on there's a lovely little gap for germs to start building up where bark meets wood not to mention bast (inner bark) is like a sponge so it'll hold the nasties and bits of it'll come out eventually. 

Try setting up a business yourself OP then report back to us r.e. prices!


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## Reggie (3 Jul 2013)

I guess glynne and I are just cheap  However I still agree with Glynne, with that much marketing around the website, you'd think the guy that was actually talking face to face to the public (You know, the people that might buy the product) would actually know as much as possible about the product. The guy couldn't even tell Glynne what the finish was on the product and was snarky about the type of wood.


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## Mr_P (3 Jul 2013)

When I presented the game I've devised recently to some business/patent advisors they said it was far too expensive at £40. I'm hoping they were wrong and this site encourages me to continue.


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## Jelly (3 Jul 2013)

I'd say it was too much to charge for what it is... but I'm a Tight-fisted Yorkshireman (also one of their waney edged boards is more than a day's wages for me).

However, I can see there would be a market for them, and considering that they're done by hand it seems a fair price... for my money the whole hand-Crafted bit is non-nonsensical it wouldn't detract from the functional or aesthetic aspects of the product to at all to machine plane them and do the edges on a spindle... it's just so that people with more money than sense can feel smug about how "special" their cheeseboard is. (My other thought is that it must be a pretty tedious product to be making, over and over again with very slight variations... I'm struggling to see what skilled woodworker would want that job).


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## Reggie (3 Jul 2013)

I guess it depends on the scale of sales you expect to get vs the price as to whether it's expensive or not at the end of the day and of course beauty/value is in the eye of the beholder, the boards do look really nice but for me they're simply not worth spending my money on.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jul 2013)

Jelly, you don't seriously think there's much there done by hand, do you? "Hand made by skilled craftsmen in our own workshops" sounds so much better than "knocked out by the score on a couple of old machines in fred's garage".


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## marcros (3 Jul 2013)

that is like anything though- adding a bit of romance to the product through marketting. It helps the customer feel like they have something special, of high quality and unique.

They probably wouldnt sell any if they said "Chopping board from a piece of wood that I bought from somewhere. Actually it was an offcut that i was going to throw away. I could tell you where it came from, but all wood comes from somewhere, so I wont bother. Then i chucked it through some old machines and bunged on some oil".


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## Roughcut (3 Jul 2013)

marcros":1mm20v1q said:


> that is like anything though- adding a bit of romance to the product through marketting. It helps the customer feel like they have something special, of high quality and unique.
> They probably wouldnt sell any if they said "Chopping board from a piece of wood that I bought from somewhere. Actually it was an offcut that i was going to throw away. I could tell you where it came from, but all wood comes from somewhere, so I wont bother. Then i chucked it through some old machines and bunged on some oil".



Exactly.
The seller can market his product as "unique" or even "one-off" and he wouldn't be stretching the truth.
People like to treat themselves and buy something that is individual.
The same couldn't be said of a chopping board purchased from Argos or wherever.
I personally wouldn't buy one of the chopping boards, but the seller has certainly given himself a marketing "edge".
Fair play to him.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jul 2013)

On their site they give details of how to clean the board if used for raw fish or raw meat. I don't think I'd be comfortable using a piece of wood full of gaps and with natural bark for that, no matter how carefully it had been cleaned before.


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## iNewbie (3 Jul 2013)

I'm wondering how Popeye will feel now they've rubbed Olive Oil in it.


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## petermillard (3 Jul 2013)

Have to agree with the majority here - and it's no rip-off if you don't buy. OTOH a ten-second Google search shows that a stand at the BBC Good Food show will set you back the best part of £3k minimum - that's "from' £242 / sq m with a minimum of 12 sq m - and presumably you'd pay a fair bit more than that unless you're happy with a stand in a far flung corner of the exhibit next to the toilets...

I wouldn't pay that for an exhibition stand, and I wouldn't pay that much for a chopping board - but if the exhibitors, and the show organisers think they can (and clearly they can) then good luck to them.


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## woodbrains (3 Jul 2013)

Hello,

There have been tests done on wooden chopping boards which prove they actually are more sterile than plastic ones. The natural extractives in timber, which combat bacteria when the tree is alive, still remain active indefinitely and kill off the nasties that harbour themselves in the knife cuts in plastic and multiply. If you think about it, people have been using wooden boards, bowls, spoons since Adam was a lad. The safety has been tested to the n,th degree. I must admit, I would stick to heart wood only, but then I would prefer end grain boards too. But wood is pretty safe, it is the perception than misleads.

I notice that the posters who are not surprised by the prices of these are or have been professional woodworkers in some capacity. It is surprising how costly it is to make and market a product, I think only those who have tried it really understand. Casual buyers might think things are dear, but most woodworkers are very modestly paid for their work, even the very high end furniture makers.

Mike.


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## powertools (3 Jul 2013)

I don't feel good with commenting on what other businesses do on internet forums but I have to say that I am surprised that they make any money at that price.
As mentioned above the costs of attending a high end show where people would be prepared to pay top prices for items is huge and the price you actually get for your items after all costs inc. vat is typically only 30 - 40% of the retail price.
I think that there marketing techniques are something that any woodworker trying to make a living out of his craft should try to follow.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jul 2013)

Mike, I was thinking more of the waney edged and knotty boards, but looking back I notice they do differentiate between chopping boards and presentation boards (whether a user would or not is a different matter). I read many years ago that wood was found to be safe - in fact it was found safe at the same time as they banned it's use! We've now got to the point that to make a ham and tomato sandwich (commercially), we have to use three chopping boards and four knives.


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## G S Haydon (3 Jul 2013)

If the product, price and concept are wrong the business will fail

If the product, price and concept are right the business will do well

Applies to most things, even those "american novelty plane makers"


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## woodbrains (3 Jul 2013)

phil.p":bl6mjr9z said:


> Mike, I was thinking more of the waney edged and knotty boards, but looking back I notice they do differentiate between chopping boards and presentation boards (whether a user would or not is a different matter). I read many years ago that wood was found to be safe - in fact it was found safe at the same time as they banned it's use! We've now got to the point that to make a ham and tomato sandwich (commercially), we have to use three chopping boards and four knives.



I know what you mean, the rustic ones aren't something that appeals to me, either. I suppose the presentation boards should be encapsulated in plastic coating ( nasty stuff) or something, so as to seal in anything inedible, and this would preclude their use as chopping boards. That said, the knife cuts in the wooden chopping boards were thought to be a harbour for bacteria and it turned out not to be the case, so perhaps other defects are no problem either.



G S Haydon":bl6mjr9z said:


> If the product, price and concept are wrong the business will fail
> 
> If the product, price and concept are right the business will do well
> 
> Applies to most things, even those "american novelty plane makers"



Sometimes even if the price is right, the product right, and concept right, the business still can fail.... It is bloody hard to succeed making a living making stuff. Those that found these products expensive sort of bear this out. The real value in a handmade object is most misunderstood by the general populous.

Mike.


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## bugbear (4 Jul 2013)

I note that various people, mainly people selling woodwork, seem to find the price reasonable *from the vendor's perspective*.

That's a valid point of view. But there's another, equally valid one.

Might I ask how many people here would actually pay the prices asked on that site for a chopping board, i.e. find the price reasonable *from a purchaser's perspective*?

BugBear


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2013)

bugbear":uvopt338 said:


> I note that various people, mainly people selling woodwork, seem to find the price reasonable *from the vendor's perspective*.
> 
> That's a valid point of view. But there's another, equally valid one.
> 
> ...


The price isn't "reasonable" either way - it is just the market price which suits the vendor, and good luck to him too!
I wouldn't pay it myself (even if I couldn't make my own) but then there are millions of things I wouldn't buy because they are too expensive.
If anybody wants to get bothered about ethics and fair prices think of banker's bonus's , legal costs, rents, and a lot of other big issues where we are being overcharged for all manner of things. An over priced breadboard is not really very interesting is it? We can get cheaper ones easily, even if we are desperate!


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## marcros (4 Jul 2013)

if I had just bought a handmade kitchen, and this board finished it off, I would pay 5x that amount. Assuming of course I had the money for a handmade kitchen. It is all about how an individual values the items- probably the same discussion about an old stanley vs a new Lie Nielsen plane

From a purchasers perspective, I think it is reasonable- the cheapest le cruset caserole dish (cast iron) was nearly £100 on their website, global knives, (which I appreciate are mass produced, but reasonable mass produced) are upwards of £75 for a cooks knife. In all cases, it probably performs just as well as a £2 ikea plastic board, just the same as you can cut your carrots with a £3 chefs knife.


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## Sheffield Tony (4 Jul 2013)

Ok, I wouldn't buy at that price. But I am a Yorkshireman at heart, despite my current location. Mind you, trendy restaurant chefs (e.g., Jamie Oliver) are serving food on wooden boards in restaurants, and selling the boards at quite a price too. They might buy, after negotiating a substantial discount.


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## cambournepete (4 Jul 2013)

marcros":3tu3tdes said:


> ...just the same as you can cut your carrots with a £3 chefs knife.


I've bought some really poor chefs knives that can't take or hold an edge, or are too thick to work properly.
Never again, I'd rather have fewer better ones.


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## Harbo (4 Jul 2013)

Used to get that problem when staying at my Mums or Mum-in- law - expected to carve a joint with a knife as blunt as a table knife! 

We've learnt to take them out instead.

Rod


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## bugbear (4 Jul 2013)

Harbo":fbqfjo5g said:


> Used to get that problem when staying at my Mums or Mum-in- law - expected to carve a joint with a knife as blunt as a table knife!
> 
> We've learnt to take them out instead.



When I visit my sister for a Christmas meal, I take along a knife, so I can help out with the prep.

Her knives are beyond sharpening :-(

BugBear


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## Chrispy (4 Jul 2013)

Following on from this if any one here wants and chopping/presentation board please get in touch, I think I may be able to oblige! :idea:


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## Racers (4 Jul 2013)

I tried using on of those slate plates but the peas kept rolling off, in hindsight I should have taken it off the roof first.

Pete


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## Kalimna (4 Jul 2013)

Pete - a liberal application of honey upon the slates prior to pea-usage would have resolved the issue of unexpected slippage.

Cheersm
Adam


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Jul 2013)

I like my peas with honey...


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## woodbrains (4 Jul 2013)

Hello,

Bugbear has a valid point about pricing objects from the buyers perspective. But the problem is, NOTHING can be hand made for the price that most want to pay. The only reason people buy wooden windows, for instance, is because they are compelled to by conservation orders or grade listings, ok, there will be a few who have the good taste to have wooden window frames if the architecture needs it, but in the main, people only buy new wooden windows under duress. If they could get away with cheaper alternatives, they would. Mass produced products are not available, so they have to put up and shut up. It is the same with everything that can be made. Tables hold plates 30 inches from the floor, why buy a bespoke table when oak furniture land have them for £199 .99. I cannot make a thing, even low grade for that. My tables only hold the plates 30 inches from the floor also. The hand made thing is a concept as much as anything. Ok my tables would be nicer than mass produced, but serve the same purpose. If having hand made is important to the buyer ( and the luxury of it being nicer, whatever that means) then they might pay the extra. But most people ( even those that can afford the extra and even desire nicer) will still only value the object for its function.

it is all the things that are not seen that make craftsman made objects too high priced. I once quoted for a metamorphic child's cot, in walnut. I actually quoted too low in order to get the job, as it was a bit of a lean time. The customer came back to me asking what wood could I make it out of to make it cheaper? The customer was a barrister, so not short of cash. This shows a couple of things IMO. People see the materials the product is made from as the main expense. It may well be for mass produced objects, but it is almost inconsequential for hand made things. I think my reply to this customer was that beech was cheaper by 100 quid, but staining it and polishing to look like walnut would take me an extra days work, so would cost more in the long run. 

The other thing is, the use the object is put to has perceived value. A child's sleeping arrangements were not a high value to this customer, as chopping boards are not to some here. But this doesn't effect the process in making the object and therefore its cost. A dining table looks bigger and more substantial than a chair. But it will take as long to make a chair as a table, in many cases. Chairs are perceived as less valuable than tables, and people think they should be less expensive.. A child's cot is probably valued less by people than either of these, but probably the most long winded to make. People on these forums should help spread the knowledge about hand crafted things, rather than have rants at the price we often need to charge, just to earn a modest living.

Incidentally, to avoid confusion, I am no longer a professional maker, and I hope this didn't sound like a rant of my own.

Mike.


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2013)

woodbrains":2m0kd6hc said:


> ...... But most people ( even those that can afford the extra and even desire nicer) will still only value the object for its function.......


I think most people buying most things are buying _an idea. _
After all who needs a table when you can get an old door and some boxes from a skip like what I've got? Who needs clothes when you can get sacks and bin bags free?
They think they are buying something "better" when they trundle off to IKEA. Fools!
Consumerism is a whole area of academic study - particularly French philosophy - Baudrillard and other social theorists etc. and all sorts of complicated ideas are going on in buyers' minds at every economic level. This includes you and me, however rational (or tasteful) we think we are!


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## woodbrains (4 Jul 2013)

Jacob":2zijy4x3 said:


> woodbrains":2zijy4x3 said:
> 
> 
> > ...... But most people ( even those that can afford the extra and even desire nicer) will still only value the object for its function.......
> ...



Yes, absolutely.

Mike.


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## powertools (4 Jul 2013)

Let me try and put a different perspective on this.
For father's day my son took me to a high end steak restaurant in London a bit posh for me but that is what he wanted to do and I enjoyed the experience.
After we had been sat at our table and served the drinks a guy turns up with one of those display platters with 5 different cuts of steak on it to show what we could order.
The average price of each steak was £35 so the price of the platter was less than half the selling price of the 5 steaks.
Presentation was the all important thing and I guess that the bloke who owned the place had no interest in the cost of the platter as he was selling maybe 150 £35 steaks a day off it.


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## Jelly (4 Jul 2013)

phil.p":vchrccoh said:


> Jelly, you don't seriously think there's much there done by hand, do you? "Hand made by skilled craftsmen in our own workshops" sounds so much better than "knocked out by the score on a couple of old machines in fred's garage".


I actually do expect that... If a product is described as being made in a certain way, I expect that the manufacture is actually doing it in that way, anything else is utterly dishonest and runs close to the wind with the 'as described' portion of the trade descriptions act. (Doubly so if the process of manufacture is the USP of the product).



woodbrains":vchrccoh said:


> The only reason people buy wooden windows, for instance, is because they are compelled to by conservation orders or grade listings, ok, there will be a few who have the good taste to have wooden window frames if the architecture needs it, but in the main, people only buy new wooden windows under duress. If they could get away with cheaper alternatives, they would. Mass produced products are not available, so they have to put up and shut up.



You're wrong on at least one, maybe both counts there, remembering that I used to work for a very large manufacturer of wooden windows*...

You can buy mass-produced wooden windows, in both standard and bespoke sizes... We had 4 styles of casement and 3 of sliding sash and a proprietary high efficiency low noise design; I think we were doing about 700-1000 fully finished units a week (down from about 7000 of 2 styles in 1990). Indeed BSI published the latest version of BS 644 _"Fully finished factory-assembled windows"_ in 2009 and there are 17 other members of the wood windows alliance... all making the same kinds of products, so it certainly can't be as dire a situation as you described.

Most of our custom was from major house builders developing up-market estates (and not just in conservation areas either) and commercial property owners who were on a sustainability kick... very few private purchasers (generally buying sliding sash); from that It's clear to see that people don't just go "I want wooden windows" in any house (and at 1.5 times the price of UPVC I can see why), but also that it is actually increasingly considered to be desirable... With the right marketing campaign and a full hands-off service like the major UPVC sellers, I think many more private individuals would choose modern wooden windows.

*Worthy of note, the group liquidated it's UPVC manufacturing venture in the late-90's as the profit margin was too low to make it a worthwhile asset for further investment and divested it's in-house glass plant shortly afterwards...


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Jul 2013)

Jelly, what constitutes "hand made"? The hand on the circular saw? The finger on the speed dial of the router? I, too, would like to believe that things advertised as "hand made" were actually made by hand, but I'm too experienced, too smart and too old.


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## No skills (4 Jul 2013)

What an entertaining thread, thanks.

Quite wrong about the wooden window thing. Jellys on the right track, quality wooden windows especially with features like powder coated ally facings are the way forward - problem is the price! hence the massive amount of upvc rubbish smothering the country.


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## Bluekingfisher (4 Jul 2013)

It appear the professional trades/craftsman cpnsider them value for money wihile the customer amongst us think they are overpriced?

If you buy them you are only encouraging them.

I wish I was earning £74.50 an hour Oh of course I forgot the overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load. Nice work if you can get it.


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## woodbrains (4 Jul 2013)

No skills":zpmqgogb said:


> What an entertaining thread, thanks.
> 
> Quite wrong about the wooden window thing. Jellys on the right track, quality wooden windows especially with features like powder coated ally facings are the way forward - problem is the price! hence the massive amount of upvc rubbish smothering the country.



Isn't that what I said, people buy rubbish because of price. The minute someone undercuts, everybody moves to the lowest common denominator. Also, you cannot buy mass produced wooden windows for my house, they are all different sizes and shapes and work differently to the ones a factory can make dor me. Hence builders who mass produce houses can order the mass produced windows in bulk. I would have to have mine made to order, which is bespoke, not mass produced. The point I am making is, hand made things are expensive and cannot be less so. Time dictates the cost of things, more than any single component of the making, followed by overheads, then equipment, marketing, transportation costs and probably lastly, the cost of materials. Customers think ( because almost everything they own is mass produced, and in mass production material cost and transport is most significant) that materials dictate the price over and above everything. The customers perception is totally contradictory to the facts. Something made of soft wood is less than half the price of something in hardwood they might think. but construction time, workshop overheads etc. are the same and the materials would be mere pounds cheaper. They also do not realise the true extent of the time it takes to do something, nor value the skill of the maker. Yet it is only the skill of the maker and the time and care he or she takes that is actually worth anything. The hundred pound lump of wood is still one hundred pounds of wood when it is a table.

Mike.


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## powertools (4 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":c02h6e2o said:


> It appear the professional trades/craftsman cpnsider them value for money wihile the customer amongst us think they are overpriced?
> 
> If you buy them you are only encouraging them.
> 
> I wish I was earning £74.50 an hour Oh of course I forgot the overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load. Nice work if you can get it.



You also forgot the costs of selling them that can be twice the manufacturing costs and the 20% VAT.


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## Jacob (4 Jul 2013)

No skills":3se7vb4p said:


> What an entertaining thread, thanks.
> 
> Quite wrong about the wooden window thing. Jellys on the right track, quality wooden windows especially with features like powder coated ally facings are the way forward - problem is the price! hence the massive amount of upvc rubbish smothering the country.


Traditional windows with linseed oil paint are the way forwards. They last for 200+ years - given a bit of maintenance and a splash of linseed oil paint every now and then. Long term costs make them cheapest by far.
The demise of the timber window is down to modern paints which are all sh|t. And a few design issues too.


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## RogerBoyle (4 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":75bhy695 said:


> It appear the professional trades/craftsman cpnsider them value for money wihile the customer amongst us think they are overpriced?
> 
> If you buy them you are only encouraging them.
> 
> I wish I was earning £74.50 an hour Oh of course I forgot the overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load. Nice work if you can get it.



What a very stupid reply =D> =D> 
What about his overheads such as premises ,electricity,Gas, Phones , Vehicles , Several various insurances ,Staff , Advertising, Fees for events just to name a few ...


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## WillRiseley (4 Jul 2013)

I wish I could earn anything. cant even sell my wood turnings for the price of the materials as people just dont want to buy stuff. think its shop hawking for me soon 

But if somethigns 'handmade' then that surely implies some effort and hard work has gone into it using hand tools and elbow grease.


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## woodbrains (4 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":3sj38wqf said:


> It appear the professional trades/craftsman cpnsider them value for money wihile the customer amongst us think they are overpriced?
> 
> If you buy them you are only encouraging them.
> 
> I wish I was earning £74.50 an hour Oh of course I forgot the overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load. Nice work if you can get it.



Hello,

If you can get waney edged cherry for 20 pounds a truck load, kindly send it to me and I will personally give you fifty.

The last time I bought waney edged English cherry, it was 48 pounds a cube an that wasn't recently.

Out of that 74 pounds and hour you would have to deduct rent for workshop, counsil tax, water rates, electricity, depreciation of toolsand equipment, insurance, transport ( the lorry for the wood doesn't come for free either) advertising telephone bill, the price of the stall at the event etc etc. 74 pounds per hour might yeald 10 -12. If your self employed, less if you are a workshop employee. And then you don't sell enough to cover the price of your pitch every once in a while. If anyone thinks there is money in this career, you are dreaming, it is treacherous. It really is.

Mike.

Mike.


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## custard (4 Jul 2013)

Interesting photo of drawknife skills here,

http://www.naturallycreated.co.uk/our-c ... ezp-4.html

Is this a warning illustration of how the incorrect use of a drawknife can tear out a huge divot on the edge of the workpiece?

It's funny except charlatan nonsense like this erodes respect for craftsmanship; enough of this manifest deception and eventually people will associate any claim of handwork with snake oil salesmen.


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## Sgian Dubh (4 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":140hzvkk said:


> It appear the professional trades/craftsman cpnsider them value for money wihile the customer amongst us think they are overpriced?
> 
> I wish I was earning £74.50 an hour Oh of course I forgot the overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load. Nice work if you can get it.


Your thorough and profound ignorance about expenses related to crafting wood and selling the product for a living is the only thing I perceived as shining brightly in your comments Bluekingfisher ... unless you posted with your tongue firmly in your cheek, which surely has to be considered a possibility with your comments perhaps being intentionally provocative. Slainte.


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## doctor Bob (4 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":3j8uoctl said:


> It appear the professional trades/craftsman cpnsider them value for money wihile the customer amongst us think they are overpriced?
> 
> If you buy them you are only encouraging them.
> 
> I wish I was earning £74.50 an hour Oh of course I forgot the overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load. Nice work if you can get it.




I have a cabinet making business, each month I have overheads of £8000 plus wages for 7 people each month. This does not include any materials or hardware.

I believe the technical term for your comment is pinapples.


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## rafezetter (4 Jul 2013)

Sheffield Tony":hui29nlk said:


> I was expecting to see higher numbers than that to justify a rant. Mind you, I just finished an end-grain beech board for meat carving, with a groove around the edge and well for catching juices, using just hand tools. I'd want _at least _the top end of their prices before I'd do it again !
> 
> I thought that the provenance of the wood was faintly amusing. All wood comes from a tree that grew somewhere, after all. I can picture these being used in trendy cafes - I've recently had food served on a wooden board, on a bit of slate looking suspiciously like a roof tile ... what is wrong with a plate these days ? Not sure I like the natural edge for food use. Interesting too that they say the finish is olive oil - I thought that was not preferred because it goes rancid ?




Lol I agree - michelin star or not things like wooden or slate servers are the wrong end - if I'm paying £50 a plate I want finest bone china, not a roof tile! Slate is also porous so exactly how sterile is it?

I'd say though Tony that all that work on your board would justify top end, but those slabs haven't had a great deal of work in comparison, and I'd expect the seller to know everything about them including the finish, the fact he didn't and had to point to a sticker rather than tell direct what the wood was shows a lack of commitment to quality the pricetag demands. If I were there I'd have asked innocently if he could tell me the details of what he was selling. (and yes I have lots of experience of this situation).


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## Jelly (4 Jul 2013)

Jacob":3ruf3v70 said:


> No skills":3ruf3v70 said:
> 
> 
> > What an entertaining thread, thanks.
> ...



I would tend to agree with that, the 106 year old traditional windows in my parents house have held up much better than any modern ones i've seen.

Not so sure about the paints, certainly the factory applied coatings can outlast anything that has come before them; the problem coming when they do degrade.
However, I have friends in the coatings industry and they make no bones about it that the increasing controls on the chemicals used as feedstocks and solvents in normal (i.e. not applied as a process in a controled environment) paints are making for more expensive and less functional products.
The advantage of the linseed paints you describe is the polymerisation of the oil during 'drying', in this respect things are coming back round with developments in biopolymers (modified soybean oil is the one which sticks in my mind) which deliver the same effect but in a controled, repeatable manner and should produce a tougher coating than linseed does.


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## G S Haydon (5 Jul 2013)

Jacob, just to OP derail I took a look at the only windows we have used linseed oil paint on the other day. Wood was Accoya and it was still looking quite good. How much experience do you have with linseed oil and over what time frame, orientation to the sun, coastal locations? One of the limitations of linseed seems to be not being able to apply over old paint without removing the old paint first (obviously). 
And, back in the day was it not lead based paint on old joinery rather than linseed oil paints?


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## Jacob (5 Jul 2013)

G S Haydon":3maqm1by said:


> Jacob, just to OP derail I took a look at the only windows we have used linseed oil paint on the other day. Wood was Accoya and it was still looking quite good. How much experience do you have with linseed oil and over what time frame, orientation to the sun, coastal locations?


About 5 years so far. Have done all my external joinery - and there is a lot of it. My most testing* piece is a very exposed and vulnerable, old, south facing, ledge brace and battened, shed door. The linseed paint sticks like **** to a blanket and appears to be indestructible. Several applications of modern paint had failed on this door previousl


> One of the limitations of linseed seems to be not being able to apply over old paint without removing the old paint first (obviously).


Not so. It sticks brilliantly to modern (oil based) paints and seems to hold it down in situations where you would expect it to fail. Primed first with oil on its own


> And, back in the day was it not lead based paint on old joinery rather than linseed oil paints?


Like everybody I always assumed that it was the lead which gave old paint its enduring quality. A simple mistake, in fact it is the linseed oil - modern fillers, driers and pigments work fine and lead not needed.
Pricy by the tin but incredibly cheap in use - can only be applied thinly, dense coverage, easy to apply, needs no thinners, solvents - brushes are kept suspended in oil which can be then used as the next primer, so no waste at all, hands washable in soapy water, non toxic, no VOCs.
PS and zero carbon footprint.

*PS The shed door looks a bit of a mess at the moment but that's because I didn't shake the tin enough last time and it had settled out making a streaky effect. But it's still sticking really well. Might give it another coat this week.

PPS 5 years may not seem long but it is a long time in terms of modern paint. All the modern paint I've ever used (externally) has failed quite quickly. Except for aluminium primer which is very durable - but modern paint doesn't stick to it for long, but linseed oil paint does. I've tried a lot of alternative approaches, even reading the instructions on the tin!


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## bugbear (5 Jul 2013)

I note the difficulty of hand making objects to a price.

But surely an instance where the (actual, justified, unavoidable) cost of manufacture exceeds what the market place will bear is almost the definition of a failed product?

BugBear


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## nanscombe (5 Jul 2013)

bugbear":hc68j4fc said:


> But surely an instance where the (actual, justified, unavoidable) cost of manufacture exceeds what the market place will bear is almost the definition of a failed product?



Almost sounds a bit like British made goods vs foreign imports?

British made:
Good quality (subjective)
Limited quantity
Expensive to produce (higher cost of materials, wages etc)

Foreign made:
Reasonable quality (subjective)
Larger quantity
Inexpensive to produce (lower cost of materials, wages etc)

Not necessarily related to above but the thinking probably is ...
Why buy relatively expensive, good quality, British craftsman made furniture when Ikea will do?


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## Jacob (5 Jul 2013)

nanscombe":2e6h3sn9 said:


> ........
> Why buy relatively expensive, good quality, British craftsman made furniture when Ikea will do?


Because in the absence of any other motivation, cheapest makes sense. 
Marketing is about motivating people in two senses at least - first to simply persuade people that they want a thing (change their wants), second to play to the psychology of the buyer and tune in to their tastes and inclinations (exploit their existing wants). 
IKEA does both very well, it isn't merely the cheapest. IKEA is particularly strong on design _and_ price so they may win on both counts.


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## woodbrains (5 Jul 2013)

bugbear":26hq91zp said:


> I note the difficulty of hand making objects to a price.
> 
> But surely an instance where the (actual, justified, unavoidable) cost of manufacture exceeds what the market place will bear is almost the definition of a failed product?
> 
> BugBear



Hello.

indeed, you are correct. But overheads in this country guarantee that production costs exceed what the market place will bear. unless you can reduce overheads, you will find it difficult to sell anything. large scale mass production reduces overheads, but that is not hand made. hand made objects will only ever be super luxury items which, as you will appreciate, is a very slim market.

this is why i mentioned windows, but the same is applied to plumbers and electricians. the only reason the market bears the prices for these trades, is because it is not viable to have Chinese imports to undercut the prices, So this sort of trade that relies on bespoke service and manual labour, is relatively safe (barring importing cheap labour rather than the products themselves...they can get us all ways). But things like kitchenalia, furniture, wood turnings, often can be imported/mass produced etc, so the market has an artificially low expectation of how much these things cost.

I can only say, the choice to buy or not to buy these things is down to the individual, but the excuse not to but should not be that the items are some sort of daylight robbery. They probably are far from it. I can understand why people do not want to spend this sort of money, but they should just be resigned to the fact that they might like the object, and perhaps desire it, but not be able to afford it. They should not be offended by the vendor, as if they are insulting the prospective buyer. In most cases these things are priced as low as the maker can bear, let alone the market.

The only antidote to the issue is for no one to make things by hand in this country, we can all work in factory sweatshops like the far East competitors. But this would be sad. So for those who cannot afford these things, ASPIRE but do not decry these objects and their makers. Perhaps have one or two of these objects, knowing you are adding to the variety of life.

Mike.


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## Bluekingfisher (5 Jul 2013)

Ah, my post it appears has some of you experts chuffing at the bit? and as some as quite happy to name call and use verbal profanity on a public forum while hiding behind a screen then perhaps you may want to PM me, I'll even provide you with my tpersonal elephone number. I 'll be quite happy to discuss it further. Let's see if there are any brave souls out there. 

David


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## Sgian Dubh (5 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":zz4o1gpn said:


> Ah, my post it appears has some of you experts chuffing at the bit? and as some as quite happy to name call and use verbal profanity on a public forum while hiding behind a screen then perhaps you may want to PM me, I'll even provide you with my tpersonal elephone number. I 'll be quite happy to discuss it further. Let's see if there are any brave souls out there. David


Tongue in cheek , or serious comment David? You seem to be lurking _"behind a screen"_ of your own using a pseudonym, unless David Bluekingfisher is your real name, which it might be of course. My real identity is easily found, and I don't think there's a need to send you a private message because I've nothing to say in private that I can't say in public. Slainte.


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## RogerBoyle (5 Jul 2013)

No Chuffing at the bit here either 
I simply stated that I thought your post was a stupid thing to say ..
I too am easily found if you look in my profile


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## powertools (5 Jul 2013)

Personally I think that this thread should have been removed at the start.
The OP used a public forum to criticize a company who he has not and will never purchase from and assumes everybody else will agree with him.
There is far more to running a business in the UK than those who don't will ever understand.
I think that this companies web site and marketing techniques are superb and for any body making a living from there wood working skills there is a lot to learn from it.
Not all customers will buy from Ikea and you need to select the customers you wish to sell to.


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## woodbrains (5 Jul 2013)

Hello,

Ethically, the thread probably should have been removed, but I think it has turned out to be very interesting and entertaining. At least the OP had the good sense not to keep harping on about a misapprehension when put straight.
Regarding the other poster here who obviously won't get the message, those brave enough, as he puts it, are those making things and earning a living at it ( or giving it their best shot) undeniably brave.
Mike.


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## marcros (5 Jul 2013)

RogerBoyle":ln969jft said:


> No Chuffing at the bit here either
> I simply stated that I thought your post was a stupid thing to say ..
> I too am easily found if you look in my profile



+1. Showed a complete lack of understanding of a real business. I think that my 2 year old could have came up with a better thought out comment.


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## Reggie (5 Jul 2013)

I think it's a fine thread, people are allowed to complain if they like, just as anyone else is free to comment on complaints 

There are clearly a lot of factors that go to make up one of these boards but they've been arbitrarily justified by x,y,z factors like staff costs, website costs, tooling etc. levels of sales, which are all guesses (I accept that some might be reasonable guesses) so you can see why people might be sceptical over the prices.

Interestingly, there are a few chinese product posts on this forum and I've noticed that when the boot is on the other foot, the chinese products get a sound beating because of their quality vs price which is in stark contrast to this thread which amounts to much of the same thing.


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## woodbrains (5 Jul 2013)

Hello,

I wasn't and neither was anyone putting Chinese and Far Eastern products down, just stating that their overheads are much lower than in this country. Some Chinese products are very good indeed, but only cheap because of labour costs, low overheads etc. look at a Quiancheng planes Versus a Clifton. Clifton is not robbing us, they simply cannot make the tools for as little as the Chinese. Should we stop buying Clifton products? We might think a little more about the working conditions of the Chinese, who obviously do not enjoy this countries health and safety laws, working conditions, statutory holidays, etc, another cost business here have to bear and reflect in the prices of their products. If everything were equal, the Chinese stuff would be dearer possibly, as they have to travel thousands of miles to get here. It may be exploitative to buy these things, but out of sight out of mind.

Mike.


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## Reggie (5 Jul 2013)

Hi, I wasn't suggesting anyone in this thread had put chinese products down, just that there are threads on this forum where chinese products have been 

It's not a slight at anyone at all, it really was just interesting to note that chinese products get complaints levelled at them over quality vs price and this thread is based on price vs quality, I didn't see anyone saying that the 'chinese tat' thread should've been closed but the main theme of both is price, quality and what people are willing to accept and the different views that surround them.


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## powertools (5 Jul 2013)

As my Grand kids would say in modern speak "wat ever"
I don't think that it is fair to criticise a product or company until you have purchased from them and been let down.


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## Chippyjoe (5 Jul 2013)

Take a chill pill people, lock the thread, and lets move on ffs.


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## joiner_sim (5 Jul 2013)

This thread has been entertaining! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jacob (5 Jul 2013)

woodbrains":318ju6xe said:


> ....Ethically, the thread probably should have been removed, but I think it has turned out to be very interesting and entertaining. ...


Moralising again!
It has often been the price of things in the past which have sparked off revolutions, but more likely to be the price of bread itself, not bread boards. As a rule nobody gives a f||ck about the price of breadboards - quite rightly IMHO.


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## woodbrains (5 Jul 2013)

No Jacob, just agreeing with another post. I don't think people's products should be ridiculed, whether breadboards or Chinese imports. Discussed sensibly as to the reasons why a thing is the way it is. Should this be the last time I support window frame makers? 

Mike.


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## powertools (5 Jul 2013)

Chippyjoe":gl1v3pnf said:


> Take a chill pill people, lock the thread, and lets move on ffs.



Oops I thought that was the blue one.
Turns out that was the thrill pill.


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## [email protected] (6 Jul 2013)

totally discourtious (spelling?) to stick a URL up and slag the products/ company off. Did the Op invite the company to comment on this thread when this thread was posted? meanwhile this thread will rumble on and be indexed for all to see whenever they google said company....

theres better ways of pointing people in the direction of a company website than typing their exact web address.


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## Reggie (6 Jul 2013)

Not sure why you think he should have to invite the company to comment, he really is allowed an opinion on a company and how it's employees behaved and doesn't need permission to do it. 

From what I could gather from the initial post, the company sell hand made cutting boards that are, excuse the pun, a cut above your ordinary cutting board, the website looks very slick but the company employee couldn't be bothered or didn't know what he was actually selling, which for me kills the whole deal because they're not as exacting as they make themselves out to be, in the face of some small adversity, their façade crumbles. 

If the person that is supposed to be selling your product, can't actually be bothered to sell the product, perhaps that explains why they don't necessarily sell very many and the price is reflective of his lack of effort?

I have worked in retail myself, on the front line, I know how difficult customers can be but they really did pay my wages, the bottom line was that if we didn't sell enough of our products then the business would end up going under. 

So it's the little things, like knowing your product lines that help go a long way, he had less than 20 products to remember by the looks of it, that's not very many, especially as they all do the same thing, perhaps he really just didn't care enough about the products? Lastly, a difficult customer isn't a difficult customer, it's just one you haven't won round yet, it's just all about your attitude.


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## Kalimna (6 Jul 2013)

I think that, reading between the lines, the seller of the boards in the OP probably did know which board was made from which wood, only he made a flippant remark to a customer who was possibly making an ass of himself. The customer may think they are always correct, and they may be the source of the income that keeps a business in business, but that doesn't entitle them to be rude or impolite.
Unfortunately, we only have one side of the conversation here, and for me it doesn't paint the OP in a very flattering light. 
Looking at their website, the board company do seem to waffle on a bit and attempt to exploit potential customers desire for individually crafted products, however one may define handmade (another discussion in itself). In the absence of looking at one of their products in the flesh, their prices didn't seem too bad, and having made boards myself of considerably greater complexity, I can understand the work involved.
In the grand scheme of things, I don't think that charging £50-100 for a wooden board is something that needs ranting against on a public forum. Indeed, anything that increases the perceived value within the public mindset of hand crafted items can only be a good thing for us. If you don't agree with the price, don't buy it, or make similar and sell for less.

Just my tuppenceworth at silly-o'clock in the morning courtesy of a sneezing fit and this damnably muggy weather.
Adam


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## Jacob (6 Jul 2013)

Kalimna":2qlb4pur said:


> ......the board company do seem to waffle on a bit and attempt to exploit potential customers desire for individually crafted products,


It's called "marketing" - everybody has to do it if they want to sell something and if they do it well they get more money for the same product as their competitors


> ..... I don't think that charging £50-100 for a wooden board is something that needs ranting against on a public forum. ......


I thought ranting was what forums were for!
The price of bread has set off revolutions in the past ("let them eat cake" etc) but the price of breadboards never would ("let them use plates"?)


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## houtslager (6 Jul 2013)

Blimey Jacob, you have some strange web browsing habits to post that link, I did find it intriguing and interesting, so ta much.

K


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## iNewbie (6 Jul 2013)

As the assumptions are flying... I'll assume there are some here who took the OP's post as being somewhat, personal - towards them and their trade/pricing. So they've stuck the boot him on him. 

I'll assume most everyone has thought the same thing about a product at some point, he just posted his thoughts/opinion. No puppies were killed/maimed. Its a breadboard ffs. 

Personally. I think the price sucks too. The whole hand-crafted and rubbed in Olive-oil - sweat from the craftsmen brow... (I just added that bit) has me gagging from a marketing point-of-view.

Saying that. I'll stump-up (and have) the funds for an Auriou/Liogier rasp because I don't feel I'm being _exploited_ on such a product. Thats my perception and my opinion. And, its ok to agree to disagree.


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## iNewbie (6 Jul 2013)

[email protected]":fqq5aze7 said:


> totally discourtious (spelling?) to stick a URL up and slag the products/ company off. Did the Op invite the company to comment on this thread when this thread was posted? meanwhile this thread will rumble on and be indexed for all to see whenever they google said company....
> 
> theres better ways of pointing people in the direction of a company website than typing their exact web address.


Devil's Advocate:

They're being talked about, sure. They may also make sales from such a thread because someone noticed it - I'd never heard of them. People may disagree about pricing,.....but others won't be bothered and cough-up their asking price.

its not all negative. Unless you only look at it in a negative way.


Edit - FTR. I purchased a Clifton Plane after a similar thread was posted on here.


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## rafezetter (6 Jul 2013)

Reggie":3a9drmrq said:


> Not sure why you think he should have to invite the company to comment, he really is allowed an opinion on a company and how it's employees behaved and doesn't need permission to do it.
> 
> From what I could gather from the initial post, the company sell hand made cutting boards that are, excuse the pun, a cut above your ordinary cutting board, the website looks very slick but the company employee couldn't be bothered or didn't know what he was actually selling, which for me kills the whole deal because they're not as exacting as they make themselves out to be, in the face of some small adversity, their façade crumbles.
> 
> ...



I'd call that reply a home run Reggie  take a bow. Having been a retail manager for many years - and in the ranks before that, I can tell you not really knowing what's in front of you considering all he had to do was identify the wood and the possible variety of finishes that may have been used (and if they don't know they should ask the "craftsmen" to make sure they indeed comply with food safe regulations) made both him and the people he represented look pretty poor IMHO. Rather than a snarky "look at the sticker on the back bud" remark, the seller should have taken the opportunity to extol the virtues of the boards knowing full well that at the prices marked, in these times, only an "I saw you coming" customer would stump the cash on the spot.

I don't necessarily think the prices were over the top (IF they were handcrafted - with hand planes, not machine crafted), but lets face it - there aren't many men whom, upon bringing that home to the missus and being asked why you had spent £70 on a breadboard, would be able to get away with "I thought it looked nice", without some why's and wherefore's the seller should have extolled as backup. (and even then I'd stay at arms length).

(and Reggie's right there are a few chinese bashing threads here too and I'll bet some of those posts are generalizations rather than actual 1st person experience).

"Handcrafted" is overly used nowadays, when in a lot of cases the only difference between handcrafted and factory crafted is the size of the machines and space you are standing in. If you look in my sig you'll see the fireplace I made. I charged her only £250 for it and that included the whole installation - cutting and setting 2 very large slate floor tiles for a hearth, tiling the surround and making an internal section to cover up the nasty fireplace hole she had, which some silly person had put breeze blocks in.

I spent a ridiculous amount of time doing the shaping of the wood as I only had a stupid block plane to do it with, I didn't get anywhere near a reasonable monetary price vs time spent ratio. Should I have charged her that much more because of a lack of tools on my part? I charged her based on what she might have been able to buy for the same sort of money even though the whole thing was utterly bespoke and designed for her living room. (I did get a ton of learning from it though so I'm not bitter about it despite how it may look)

And that for me is the sort of basis the OP's rant was based on.


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Jul 2013)

Ultimately, It's a free(ish) country - if the price of something winds you up that much, DON'T BUY IT! ... that's it folks! ... over, done with! ...finito!


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## JohnPW (6 Jul 2013)

> "Handcrafted" is overly used nowadays, when in a lot of cases the only difference between handcrafted and factory crafted is the size of the machines and space you are standing in.



"Hand made" and "hand crafted" are now so misused they've become meaningless. The only thing on the web site that shows anything hand crafted is the pic of someone using a drawknife with the boad in a vice. Since the main selling point of the product is they are hand crafted (hand sawn, hand sanded), you might've thought they would show some of the supposed hand work. I suspect hand sawn means hand fed into a bandsaw, hand sanded means board hand held against sanding machine etc. It's like when place of manufacture is not mentioned, you know it's been made in a lower cost country.

It's all that marketing and "story" that goes with a lot of luxury products that I find off putting.


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## Bluekingfisher (8 Jul 2013)

Sgain Dubh, Roger, Marcros - I considered sending you boys a reasoned response, but I really couldn't be bothered.

What I will say though is if my comments caused you all offence then I am truly sorry.

I hope you all make a pile of money from your hand crafted products.

Good luck

David


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## Neil Farrer (8 Jul 2013)

Glynne":3bflh23q said:


> As well as entry to the Gardeners World Exhibition (yes I know I spoil her), you gain free entry to the BBC Good Food show which is interesting despite most things being over-priced.
> However I came across this one exhibitor who I thought was "having a laugh" and taking advantage of being at a well known show.
> Oh no - Have a look at the prices!
> http://www.naturallycreated.co.uk
> ...



I know this exhibitor through another craft fair at which I was attending and I make the following brief comments:

The stall fees that form the basis of the pricing policy at any of these shows are exorbitant and are outside the control of the exhibitor. I paid £250 a day for a three metre stand at a fair that this exhibitor was recently at. The stall fees at the Good Food Show will be much higher.
That exhibitor is not a craftsman and the names on the backs of the woods were on occasions wrong, notably describing a piece of spalted chestnut as sycamore!
A fellow exhibitor, a proclaimed member of the RPT was charging £800 for a 14 inch yew bowl at an exhibition I was at recently, overcharging??
If its overpriced only suckers will pay for it. Sometimes the value to one person is not the cost but the pleasure it brings them.

Some of this may already have been said and as repetition is a pet hatred on mine I apologise but I have a poor connection in the middle of Spain and cant read all the posts!


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## merlinfraser (8 Jul 2013)

Dear Glynne,

Why am I not surprised you hid your true identity, why would you make a total . of yourself in a forum and give your real name ? At every show there is always at least one and I suspect at the BBC Good Food Show you may well have been nominated perhaps you should thank your wife for saving your face.

As it happens I know a bit about the processes this type of product goes through and if you were half as smart as you think you are you might know as well. 

'Flat bits of Wood !' Let me see now, those flat bits of wood would have started life as sawn timber, unlike many boards on the market that are only air dried timber these are kiln dried for a few weeks, then transported to a workshop where the planks would be sized, planed and cut into board shapes. Sanded to a reasonable finish before being hand finished and coated with a a food safe coating before a final finish and a second coating. 

What type of timber we talking about here? British hardwoods, some scarce, or perhaps, Walnut, Elm, Pippy Oak or Burr woods, all becoming extremely sought after and therefore sell at premium prices at the mill.

Do you know how many wood turners, tree surgeons, hobbyists and like attend these shows ? All think they know better all asking questions as to how do you do this or that... Why are you surprised that a question you ask is vaguely parried away perhaps to protect a protected process.

I have seen the boards you are so quick to criticise and I know the joke behind their labels, not only does it tell you what kind of wood the board is may from but it even tells you where the tree grew. A nice touch, in my opinion, because it defines that all their timber comes from guaranteed sustainable sources... The joke ? They learned the trick from a butcher with a stand close to theirs who knew the names of all the pigs in his sausages !

As far as price is concerned, consider this, as well as everything above how about allowing for the cost of attending such shows as the BBC Good Food Show and many others dotted around the country. Add to that travel, accommodation and food all of which have to be taken into account when running a business, something else it appears you know very little about.

So please... the next time you want air your ignorance and bad mouth a decent company at least have the guts to do so under your real name !


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## Bluekingfisher (8 Jul 2013)

merlinfraser":150nbtfh said:


> Dear Glynne,
> 
> Why am I not surprised you hid your true identity, why would you make a total . of yourself in a forum and give your real name ? At every show there is always at least one and I suspect at the BBC Good Food Show you may well have been nominated perhaps you should thank your wife for saving your face.
> 
> ...


 :-({|= :-({|= :-({|=


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## Mr_P (8 Jul 2013)

> So please... the next time you want air your ignorance and bad mouth a decent company at least have the guts to do so under your real name !



That made me laugh, thank you MERLIN


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2013)

Exactly what I thought.


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## custard (8 Jul 2013)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WOODEN-CHOPPI ... 257f06fd4a


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## Mr_P (8 Jul 2013)

Custard,

Sorry I think all you get for 99p is an email / phone call.


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## bugbear (8 Jul 2013)

Mr_P":j9sw4smz said:


> Custard,
> 
> Sorry I think all you get for 99p is an email / phone call.





> Here you are buying a quotation for custom made breadboard,



Yep - it's a non-free quote.

BugBear


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## Glynne (8 Jul 2013)

Dear Merlinfraser, 

Sorry to disappoint but my real name is Glynne - if you don't like it you will have to blame my mother. 
Not sure what yours is however? 

Flat bits of wood - would they be the same bits of wood that I tend to buy? 


> unlike many boards on the market that are only air dried timber these are kiln dried for a few weeks.


You are in danger in starting another thread of air dried vs kiln dried - I have both but many professionals (Paul Sellers for one) tend to prefer air dried so there could be some disagreement to your views. What do I do with this hardwood (which is predominantly English oak, ash, chestnut, sycamore, elm etc.) - well it goes into my workshop where it gets sized, planed, thickness, finished etc. I tend to find that kiln dried is a lot easier to size etc. as even really well air dried can warp or twist, but I think air dried is more stable in the long run. How do I convert it? Well usually by machinery but I will occasionally use handtools. 


> Why are you surprised that a question you ask is vaguely parried away perhaps to protect a protected process.


I stand to be corrected here - there is obviously a secret process to making breadboards that I'm not party to, I just thought the salesman didn't know his product. Strange that Neil Farrer sort of endorsed this. 

I think we've exhausted the supplier / non-supplier argument. Both have their valid points but, as been said many times, if you don't think the price is vfm then don't buy it - which I didn't. 
In this huge exchange, I think reggie, rafezetter, iNewbie and a couple of others are on my wavelength but I can understand where the suppliers are coming from and this was a specific comment about a specific supplier rather than a dig at suppliers in general, although I accept some may have been thought it a little close to home and hence some of the comments. 

However in all of the contrary views expressed and some very forcibly, everyone has managed to convey their feelings and thoughts without resorting to insults - until now! 

So I'll take the opportunity, not to bad mouth you but sign off under my real name. 

Regards, 

Glynne


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## nev (8 Jul 2013)

100 replies in 5 days !! certainly got the conversation flowing there Glynne :mrgreen: =D>


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## Jelly (8 Jul 2013)

merlinfraser":1yriwxwi said:


> A nice touch, in my opinion, because it defines that all their timber comes from guaranteed sustainable sources...



Oh really now?... have you got evidence of the stands of new indigenous deciduous trees that are being planted to replace the old growth trees the timber is sourced from?

Or are you just bandying about the S-word with impunity just because they're definitely not using illegally imported logs from Sarawak*? Because it's not the same thing, not even a little bit. I note the lack of PEFC/FSC certification on their website/other information, so presumably they source their hardwoods opportunistically and can't guarantee that they're from "well managed forests" let alone sustainable ones.

*I'm not implying anyone else in the UK is (in fact I'd find it quite incredible), it's just that Sarawak is the epitome of a location infamous for non-sustainable timber extraction, so it really drives the point home.


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## woodbrains (8 Jul 2013)

Hello,

Actually, you are very unlikely to get timber with FSC or PFEC certification when you source grubbed out timber from privately owned farmland, park windfalls and stuff from people's gardens, etc. but it would be highly Eco friendly to use it and would be interesting to have provenance of such.

Mike.


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## Jelly (8 Jul 2013)

woodbrains":mlrscs5a said:


> Hello,
> 
> Actually, you are very unlikely to get timber with FSC or PFEC certification when you source grubbed out timber from privately owned farmland, park windfalls and stuff from people's gardens, etc. but it would be highly Eco friendly to use it and would be interesting to have provenance of such.
> 
> Mike.



Note the emphasis:


Jelly":mlrscs5a said:


> Or are you just bandying about the S-word with impunity just because they're definitely not using illegally imported logs from Sarawak*? Because it's not the same thing, not even a little bit. I note the lack of PEFC/FSC certification on their website/other information,* so presumably they source their hardwoods opportunistically* and can't guarantee that they're from "well managed forests" let alone sustainable ones.



The word sustainable gets badly misused and it's important that people understand that for timber to be sustainable it _needs_ to be coming from a source that will be replaced _like for like_, this simply doesn't happen currently with old-growth hardwoods, though I very much hope it starts to...
The opportunistic sourcing of hardwoods is not intrinsically bad for the environment, nor do I mean to say it is... But it's not sustainable, simply putting to good use a natural resource that might otherwise be lost for non-forestry related reasons.

I'm well aware that the PEFC/FSC schemes are unlikely to cover the sources of these timbers, or indeed such a small manufacturer... But they're about as close as you'll get to a "guarantee" of good forestry practice (as touted by merlin) and even then it's not nearly as certain as they'd have you believe.


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## woodbrains (8 Jul 2013)

Hello,

Perhaps I should have added, that not everything made from FSC timber is necessarily ecologically sound, and things not made from FSC timber is not necessarily un-ecological. We should not judge until there is some hard evidence to judge from. 

No doubt these chopping boards are made from commercially unviable stock, which may well have been burned or turned into chipboard, which IMO is a better use for it and ecological. Sustainability is not the only aspect of ecological propriety.

Mike.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2013)

Jelly":hd1bwi64 said:


> merlinfraser":hd1bwi64 said:
> 
> 
> > A nice touch, in my opinion, because it defines that all their timber comes from guaranteed sustainable sources...
> ...


Sarawak? A friend told me he had just read a book by two Spanish journalists about Chinese plans for world domination that said Mozambique would be TOTALLY DEFORESTED in eight years time at current rates.


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## Jelly (8 Jul 2013)

woodbrains":rlmxx94p said:


> Hello,
> 
> Perhaps I should have added, that not everything made from FSC timber is necessarily ecologically sound, and things not made from FSC timber is not necessarily un-ecological. We should not judge until there is some hard evidence to judge from.
> 
> ...



Getting away from certification bodies (all of which are a little flawed), it's important that people don't use sustainable willy-nilly, if something is environmentally sound in that it's reclaimed from non-commercial felling, explain how... Don't just subject the S-Word to further denigration, there will never be any impetus for a push towards truly sustainable forestry at all if people wrongly believe that it's already widespread.

The Scandinavians and the Russians are on the right lines, but even there the pressures of commercial silviculture can act to force out commercially unimportant species from whole forests, one stand at a time, reducing forest bio-diversity.


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## Reggie (9 Jul 2013)

whilst the certification systems might be flawed (I have no idea, haven't looked at them) if this company doesn't use stuff that can be verified then using the word sustainable is not really provable I suspect? I'm not calling them liars, just that if they can't back up their claim, it leaves them open to questioning like this.

Given the cost of the boards though, the one thing that niggles me is the fact that the guy didn't want to put himself out to earn the money for the product. For me that would've been an opportunity to spout something about the product so that everyone around could hear, whether you buy it or not, I've been helpful and hopefully dispelled any doubts that others may have. Repeat after me, Courtesy costs .... 75 quid a board!!


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## merlinfraser (9 Jul 2013)

Jelly Quote

"Or are you just bandying about the S-word with impunity just because they're definitely not using illegally imported logs from Sarawak*? Because it's not the same thing, not even a little bit. I note the lack of PEFC/FSC certification on their website/other information, so presumably they source their hardwoods opportunistically and can't guarantee that they're from "well managed forests" let alone sustainable ones."

Yes Really, Really...looking at their labels, it tells you where the original timber for the boards came from, mainly forests under the control of the Forestry Commission, some from private Estates, even Westonbirt Arboretum.... wouldn't have thought you could get more guaranteed sustainable sources than that .


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## david123 (9 Jul 2013)

Just picked up this post (been away) Perhaps it is time to step back and reflect..

Don't Take Anything Personally. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
Miguel Angel Ruiz


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## Bluekingfisher (9 Jul 2013)

Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??

David


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## merlinfraser (9 Jul 2013)

Bless you Glynne what a joy you must be around, before I disappear let me ask a serious question. 
When you went onto this exhibitor's stand were you really a serious potential customer or just out for a bit of fun and looking to wind this guy up and got angry when he didn't play along ?

You see while I bow to your supposed superior knowledge about wood craftsmanship I'm not sure you know a lot about NEC shows, Five 10 hour days attracting thousands of visitors a day. These will cover a wide spectrum of people from the simple curious to the out and out time wasters. With experience most stall holders and their staff quickly get a feel for those passing by and I suspect this guy may be a lot smarter than you give him credit for. After all by your own admission you say your own wife had to frog march you away, sounds like the desperate act of an embarrassed woman who has seen your performance before.

My guess is you were spotted and rightly or wrongly identified as a potential time waster rather than as a potential buyer and you took the hump !


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## Kalimna (9 Jul 2013)

Just out of interest, surely knowing where the tree came from/grew doesnt make it sustainable. Nice to know. But sustainable means that you can 'sustain' something (in this context the timber), and unless there is clear evidence of replanting then it isnt sustainable. Might be eco-friendly I suppose, but not sustainable.

Cheers,
Adam


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## marcros (9 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":2inoql5a said:


> Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??
> 
> David



if I am one "conspicuous by my absence", I am still here. I stand by my views but really have nothing more to add. No point in rewording my same opinion, and i respect that others may disagree. It isn't a competition, where at the end everybody has to agree on the unified opinion of the forum.

As for posts like you have made in this thread, it seems that you enjoy stirring up the dung. Like the other post where you made some ridiculous comment, and then have no shame in provoking people to point out just how foolish it sounded.

At the end of the day, it is a chopping board. If you dont value an (any) item at what is being charged for it, dont buy it. Everybody has different priorities, interests, tastes and budgets.


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## Bluekingfisher (9 Jul 2013)

marcros":31w3u75g said:


> Bluekingfisher":31w3u75g said:
> 
> 
> > Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??
> ...



Asd you rightly state we all have differnt views and are entitled to express them. I think we are agreed on that point?? However unlike some, i do not make direct defamatory or profane remarks, I would like to think I am above that.

As far as "Stiring the dung" goes, if you can't see the irony then more fool you.


David


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## RogerBoyle (9 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":1pzymttl said:


> Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??
> 
> David



Not interesting at all TBH as I'm quite sure others will tell you :roll: 
As I have obviously hurt your feelings and upset you I thought about ignoring you as life is to short to play silly games with people other than my family.

Instead I will simply say I'm still here as well and like the other poster I standby my earlier posts and as yet I fail to see any challenge to my posts other than thinly veiled attempts by you to illicit some kind of response 

Now just to put your mind at rest rather than spoil a thread that several people are enjoying I will refrain from posting so please do not take this as a sign that my views have changed , They haven't 
Enough said


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## Glynne (9 Jul 2013)

Sorry - I missed merlinfraser's question in all of the exchanges. 

I will reply to this as having been asked a direct question but like a lot of others, I think all of the arguments have been exhausted and there is a degree of niggle creeping in so this is probably my last post as well (making 3 in total). 



> When you went onto this exhibitor's stand were you really a serious potential customer or just out for a bit of fun and looking to wind this guy up...?


 
Neither - I saw wooden products in which I'm always interested and went over to find out more about them, how they are made, what woods etc. I may have an unusual sense of humour but it doesn't extend to approaching total strangers with a view to winding them up. 

No, I haven't been a stall holder at any NEC shows but living just over 10 miles away, I have been to a large number of shows - there even used to be a woodworking one many years ago for those with long memories. Always had a good time and met loads of helpful people ready to share their knowledge. 



> With experience most stall holders and their staff quickly get a feel for those passing by and I suspect this guy may be a lot smarter than you give him credit for.


 
Quite possibly but let me also comment about some other stall holders. 

A Welsh company making dovecotes (I haven't quoted the site as some people don't agree with this but it should be easily found). 
Things made out of wood, so I went a had a word. Charming knowledgeable guy. Immediately asked me if I was interested in buying or simply in the products and how they were made. When I explained that my garden wasn't big enough and that I had given away some inherited dovecote plans (to someone on the forum), he was still happy to explain about his products even to the point of looking up the shade of paint used! Were they cheap no, but I understood why not. Would I suggest anyone wanting a dovecote to check him out, absolutely. 

Both companies selling japanese knives (there was a bit of this thread relating to japanese knives) - absolutely brilliant. Didn't even ask if people were interested in buying, they simply took delight in explaining what their products were, how to use them and encouraged people to have a play. Even when one was asked why they were so expensive, they explained the knife making process, folding steel etc. and how this led to the cost. I had a good conversation about the use of water stones with one company and both simply thanked me for my interest and gave me a business card. Will I buy a japanese knife, I don't know - but I'm more likely to now than I was before. 



> After all by your own admission you say your own wife had to frog march you away, sounds like the desperate act of an embarrassed woman who has seen your performance before.


 
OK humour doesn't always translate when written (so my fault), but no I wasn't actually in an arm lock (surprise, surprise) and in fact I think she had long disappeared to look at more interesting things than breadboards way before he got up my nose. If I took the hump, it was probably all of the way to the next helpful stand, which was almost certainly the next one I visited. 

Questions answered honestly and that's me out of this thread. 

Glynne


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## iNewbie (9 Jul 2013)

merlinfraser":2hlqobgl said:


> Bless you Glynne what a joy you must be around, before I disappear let me ask a serious question.
> When you went onto this exhibitor's stand were you really a serious potential customer or just out for a bit of fun and looking to wind this guy up and got angry when he didn't play along ?
> 
> You see while I bow to your supposed superior knowledge about wood craftsmanship I'm not sure you know a lot about NEC shows, Five 10 hour days attracting thousands of visitors a day. These will cover a wide spectrum of people from the simple curious to the out and out time wasters. With experience most stall holders and their staff quickly get a feel for those passing by and I suspect this guy may be a lot smarter than you give him credit for. After all by your own admission you say your own wife had to frog march you away, sounds like the desperate act of an embarrassed woman who has seen your performance before.
> ...



Yet, here you are -even joining a forum to do it!, riding Glynne - oh the irony! :mrgreen:


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## Bluekingfisher (9 Jul 2013)

RogerBoyle":1cem8mvj said:


> Bluekingfisher":1cem8mvj said:
> 
> 
> > Aww, c'mon now, don't be too hard on Merlin, he was only jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of them Incidentlly they have become conspicious by their abscence since their views have been challenged.....interesting??
> ...



Not hurt my feelings at all Roger, far from it, however it appears it may be your pride that has taken the battering, particularly as you state, you don't like playing games but thought you should respond anyway??

I have already mentioned we, you, me are all entitled to an opinion so please forgive me if I don't take what you say or think as gospel. What grates though is the condescending and sanctimonious attitude you and some others have shown, towards several posters to this thread.

I don't know if you make you living from working wood and therefore feel a little precious about it but if you do you should lighten up and enjoy playing games with your family more and in your words, life is too short.

David


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## Sgian Dubh (9 Jul 2013)

Bluekingfisher":15gqhmvu said:


> I considered sending you boys a reasoned response, but I really couldn't be bothered.
> 
> What I will say though is if my comments caused you all offence then I am truly sorry. David


I'm certainly not offended-- I have a thick enough skin. When I read your original post I concluded it was almost certain you were being deliberately provocative because, after all, it has to be admitted that your analysis of likely costs, i.e., _"overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load"_ are limited; and you missed out all the other typical costs and overheads likely to be incurred in running a woodworking business, including in this case renting a booth at a sales venue, staffing it, arranging facilities to take customer payments, delivering stock to the show and setting up the booth or stand and breaking down at the end, parking, hotel and travel expenses, etc.

Anyway, now I've seen a few more of your posts on the subject I can't make up my mind if you're serious or not, not that it matters one way or the other I suppose. Slainte.


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## Jelly (9 Jul 2013)

merlinfraser":2w5btomp said:


> Jelly":2w5btomp said:
> 
> 
> > "Or are you just bandying about the S-word with impunity just because they're definitely not using illegally imported logs from Sarawak*? Because it's not the same thing, not even a little bit. I note the lack of PEFC/FSC certification on their website/other information, so presumably they source their hardwoods opportunistically and can't guarantee that they're from "well managed forests" let alone sustainable ones."
> ...



This is the thing: without seeing the managment plan for the woodland in question and licence for the felling operation, you can't actually be sure it's sustainable, much less _guarantee_ it... Of them all, the FC is most likely (more likely than not in fact) to be harvesting deciduous trees in a sustainable way*; but it's by no means certain, depending on the other factors involved. The arboretum is a weird one, as it is in truth part of the built environment (I haven't visited a naturally occuring arboretum).



Kalimna":2w5btomp said:


> Just out of interest, surely knowing where the tree came from/grew doesnt make it sustainable. Nice to know. _But sustainable means that you can 'sustain' something (in this context the timber)_, and unless there is clear evidence of replanting then it isnt sustainable. Might be eco-friendly I suppose, but not sustainable.


_That's it in a nutshell!_

In fact (seen as you're interested) it's not just replanting the same species (singular or plural) of tree(s), but doing both the felling and planting in concert such that _the quality of woodland environment will remain constant or improve_... So you also have to consider the effects of both the extraction operation and the trees removed on wildlife, how the species to be planted will grow back best, if it's going to produce better results to plant saplings or rely on natural re-seeding from healthy trees left standing for that purpose, whether it's better for the soil conditions and other flora to leave stumps and brash in-situ or to go for "whole tree harvesting"... All fascinating stuff.

I realise that I might seem to some people to be making a mountain out of a mole-hill over this, but I'm passionate about woodlands (they're both a resource and wonderful places) and about timber as a material; that has extended to being passionate about silviculture and the sustainable management of our woodlands... Thus I feel it's actually quite important that the term "sustainable" is used correctly rather than bandied about as the *"S-Word"* by people who see it as little more than a useful marketing term; the issue of Greenwashing is a growing issue with all manner of forest products.

*They've been having a bit of a push to repair the damage done by appending post-war plantations to decidious woodland near me at the minute, now the softwood has reached commercial maturity, they're clear-felling the stands and re-planting the "correct" species with trees grown from local seed-stock...


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## Bluekingfisher (11 Jul 2013)

Sgian Dubh":1vh4j8z2 said:


> Bluekingfisher":1vh4j8z2 said:
> 
> 
> > I considered sending you boys a reasoned response, but I really couldn't be bothered.
> ...



In the grand scheme of things I would tend to agree with you............................................Does it doesn't really matter? Answer, in my opinion, no!


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## JustBen (11 Jul 2013)

A very interesting post..... long, but interesting.

Some very witty comments and some not so.

At the end of the day, high price or low price, an item is only worth as much as YOU are willing to pay for it/how much YOU value it. If its too much, move on.

I think one thing we can all agree on is that we are all passionate about wood/woodwork.


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## Losos (12 Jul 2013)

Sheffield Tony":ujvr7rzl said:


> Not sure I like the natural edge for food use.



You are right I've just been putting oak, ash, and spruce waney edge boards through the saw for firewood and I can assure you there's been a lot of weird creepy crawlies comming out of the bark :lol: 

All the stuff about 'provenance' is OTT and designed to make customers feel they've got something special.

But, as others have said if he can sell them at those prices then good luck to him, it's amazing what people will pay these days to appear trendy and 'with it'

As a matter of fact I might start making some boards with some of the scraps I have around the workshop :lol: :lol:


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## mac1012 (13 Jul 2013)

not too over priced very well marketed I agree with comments when you have all the overheads on a business which is totally different to just going in your shed/workshop 

I like the way they are presented and the labelling etc which is not cheap then the cost of standing somewhere like the food show would be huge so I cant see how he is taking advantage 

I guess there is gnashing and grinding of teeth on here whenever anyone makes a living out of what they do , envy perhaps ?? 

price ? well a craftshop where I live at the posh end of town charges 25 pound for a mdf painted dove 

mark


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## Walter Hall (13 Jul 2013)

It is called marketing and making as profit neither of which is a crime.

Selling your work at low prices that an honest tradesman trying to make a living could not match is more of a problem in my opinion.

Walter


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## promhandicam (13 Jul 2013)

powertools":132f57wu said:


> Personally I think that this thread should have been removed at the start.



+1 =D> 

Quite right. I only really come to UKW to see what is on sale at Aldi / Lidl this week or what treasures have been found at the weekends carboot sales :roll: I certainly don't expect to read anything related to making things from wood.

And to the OP and others, if you think the price of the bread boards was mad, have a look at this:







Roll of canvas, £10; Dulux tester posts £5; sale price . . . . $60 million - and it isn't even new!


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2013)

......and you've got it upside down!


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2013)

Malevitch. Worth every penny!

It'd be interesting if this boring thread moved away from the prices of things which don't matter in the slightest (bread boards, fine-art etc) to the price of things which do matter - health, education, housing etc and perhaps a diversion via bankers bonuses, tax dodging, political contributions, law, etc etc


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2013)

:idea:That's what newspapers are for.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2013)

promhandicam":25dzstyx said:


> .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oddly enough I'm planning to have one of these on the wall of my chapel when its finished, but it'll be a DIY copy on 8'x4' hardboard. Nobody will know. 8)


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## Mr_P (13 Jul 2013)

Can't remember who said it and the exact quote but here goes.

A famous artist is asked how he justifies charging so much for something that took him only 30 seconds to create. The artist replied " It took me 64 years plus 30 seconds to create it"

Edit : Thanks Phil.P for the below, it's too hot for me and that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2013)

It was along the lines of - a morning's work, and a lifetime's experience. It was Whistler.


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## wizard (13 Jul 2013)

There is a lot of work in making one of those boards! Have you ever tried to remove one of those “made in china” stickers


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## Cheshirechappie (13 Jul 2013)

wizard":2hdrbsa2 said:


> There is a lot of work in making one of those boards! Have you ever tried to remove one of those “made in china” stickers




Ah - so. Ming Dynasty chopping board. Velly rare. Velly good price.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2013)

wrong thread!


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2013)

Eh?


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