# Timber framing.



## mhannah (28 Feb 2012)

I am about to start framing out my new shed/workshop using 1.5" x 2.5" CLS from a B&Q.

Any advice on the best way to join the frame members at right-angles?
Is it just a case of 2 nails into the end-grain of the up-rights?

If so - what size of nails should I use?
Oval or round-wire?

I have done a few experiments and find that too thinck a nail will split the end-grain.

I'm not sure how long the nails should be?
If I am nailing through a 1.5" thick horizontal beam into the end-grain of an up-right - should I go in by another 1.5" - meaning I need a 3" nail?


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## gardenshed (28 Feb 2012)

FWIW I would use screws rather than nails, CLS is quite hard & sometimes brittle and as you've found out it splits easily near the edges, mainly because the timber is quite dry. You could use a pilot hole near the ends which will stop the splitting, but imho screws will hold the frame more solidly than nails (especially if the nails are of the bright smooth drawn variety) .


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## mhannah (28 Feb 2012)

Thanks for replying gardenshed!

To be honest, I tried screws first and I found that they were far more likley to split the end-grain than nails - even with a generous pilot hole.


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## Dibs-h (28 Feb 2012)

Nbr 10 (or 8) 3" screws, never had an issue, but that is with using an impact driver as opposed to drill driver. Never drilled a pilot hole and never had any real issues.

HIH

Dibs


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## mhannah (28 Feb 2012)

Dibs-h":9xrfr0ci said:


> Nbr 10 (or 8) 3" screws, never had an issue, but that is with using an impact driver as opposed to drill driver. Never drilled a pilot hole and never had any real issues.
> 
> HIH
> 
> Dibs



Scrrews or nails?


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## Dibs-h (28 Feb 2012)

mhannah":ek2qikle said:


> Dibs-h":ek2qikle said:
> 
> 
> > Nbr 10 (or 8 ) 3" *screws*, never had an issue, but that is with using an impact driver as opposed to drill driver. Never drilled a pilot hole and never had any real issues.
> ...


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## pip1954 (28 Feb 2012)

hi b& q will be very expensive try wickes , i was in the trade for a number of years and we all ways build the frame as we go ie lay the floor plate cut timber up rights keep them tight then put the ceiling plate up if you can screw or nail through into ceiling joists or use the up right to wedge the ceiling plate up when you put the uprights up i used to nail at an angle into the up right and into the floor plate same at the top then just work your way along measuring centres for board sizes one trick is to nail up behind the upright so the timber stays in place once nailed pull the nail out .
any questions pm me
pip


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## Digit (28 Feb 2012)

Having built a number of framed buildings I would say this, don't buy from B and Q, go to a builders or timber yard, don't nail or screw into end timbers, screw upwards through the verticals at an angle into the cross pieces.

Roy.


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## Steven (28 Feb 2012)

I only buy from B&Q as a last resort, my local yard in Glasgow is MGM timber, always found them helpful even if it was for a stick or two and always cheaper than B&Q and the more you get the better discount. When I did my shed they delivered for free


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## Eric The Viking (29 Feb 2012)

There are also screws and screws. The really good cutters not only avoid splitting, but are easier to drive, meaning you get better battery life from the drill (assuming you are!) and the screwdriving bit lasts longer. 

Have a look at Reisser (Pozi) and Paslode (Allen key or Torx heads - can't remember which) in particular. I've had really good results with both. I'm very much not a fan of Spax, personally (they apparently have a really good sales team!). Others on here swear by them; I swear at 'em*. 

Also, if you're doing stuff with Philips (plasterboard screws) or Pozi, get a good diamond-coated bit. You won't regret it. They last a lot longer, damage the screw head less, don't cam-out nearly as much, etc. These days plasterboard (Philips) screw tubs usually come with a bit included: chuck it; get a diamond one instead and mark it so you know it's not Pozi!

Everything above for a quiet life and less hassle!

E.

*I once tried giving a full box away (bought in error) - they were given back after a day or so!


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## Lons (29 Feb 2012)

I use a nailgun - quick and no splitting :lol: though I did manage to nail my thumb once #-o  

Otherwise as said it's much better to use screws. Eric is right in that there are vast differences in quality but I get away with cheapo screwfix jobbies without problems. You just have to remember their limitations.
If you do nail then it's worth using the old trick of tapping the end of the nail first to blunt it which reduces the likelyhood of splits.

Bob


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## Rob Bacon (29 Feb 2012)

I would use screws and pre drill,I use cls quite a lot for stud work when I am refurbishing houses, I have also used it for shed & workshop construction B&Q cls is pain to find straight lengths so a timber merchants or builders yards are your best bet with regards to screws green deck screws are fine you can get them in bucket tubs 75 to 80mm long. If you can and your budget allows use the next timber size up this will allow you to insulate the walls, lagging is £3.00 for 3 rolls at B&Q and lastly double up the timber plate on the stud work to take the roof.

good luck Rob


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## Jake (29 Feb 2012)

Lons":1z9mq5li said:


> Otherwise as said it's much better to use screws.



I dunno. Nailgun for me, although I have done screws. Skew nailing is every bit good enough in terms of not letting go, especially with a proper ringed framing nail. And it is so quick. 

Pre-conversion, I suggested screws rather than nails to the engineer on my extension build for the timber framing part. He was very dismissive of the idea because they are so much weaker in shear than a nail (i.e. nails bend a bit but hold anyway, screws just snap). Pull-out is not everything, and cross-skewed nails are immensely resistant to pull out anyway, way beyond what a stud wall needs.

He left nails in his spec and I deferred to his expertise. The builder used screws anyway. :roll: I don't suppose it will make any difference at all.


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## Lons (29 Feb 2012)

Jake":bqsir0sf said:


> Lons":bqsir0sf said:
> 
> 
> > Otherwise as said it's much better to use screws.
> ...



I agree 100% Jake and the first line of my post states that I use a nailgun but the OP is hardly likely to shell out £400 - 500 to buy one for his project  

I bought my Paslode 350 around 8 years ago specifically for a grade 2 listed stable which I was converting intto a large 4 bed / 3 bathroom house. 2 ft thick stone walls meant we had to construct insulated stud walls from 100x50 sw and I used 15000 nails on that build alone. 
I've used it to build a a large timber stable block and a number of sheds including a 6mtr x 3mtr for myself as well as roofs on all the extensions I build.

Wouldn't be without it but it does need regular cleaning and maintenance to keep it working.

Bob


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## Jake (29 Feb 2012)

> I agree 100% Jake and the first line of my post states that I use a nailgun but the OP is hardly likely to shell out £400 - 500 to buy one for his project



Ah, yes OK, apologies for the careless thread drift, but that's only the super-quick/lazy part of it, and they can be rented. The good old hammer is still a perfectly good and pretty quick option, especially for a one-off.



> Wouldn't be without it but it does need regular cleaning and maintenance to keep it working.



Mine is a very underused (by me) Dewalt full-head air gun which I got on the cheap. Hassle free always, but you have to be doing a good few to drag out the compressor etc to the job rather than just the driver and a box of screws.

So, OP, try the nails again but instead of whacking them into end-grain, skew nail them like someone (digit?) suggested above.

Excuse the laughably poor ascii art but the diagonals are the skewed nails. A pair or better a triangle of them crossed over like that are never coming out and the stud is going nowhere. Screws are wasted money. 


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___\/______ 
.. |/ \|
../|...| \
...|...|
...|...|


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## Lons (29 Feb 2012)

Jake":1djwykjo said:


> [Mine is a very underused (by me) Dewalt full-head air gun which I got on the cheap. Hassle free always, but you have to be doing a good few to drag out the compressor etc to the job rather than just the driver and a box of screws.



Ah right, I have a very lightweight pinner / stapler but little used for the same reason.
Because the paslode ignites gas in the machine cylinder there is a build up of gunge so it has to be stripped and cleaned out or it stops firing. Bit of a pain but quick once you get used to it.

Quite right about hiring - hadn't thought about that as I try not to unless something lange like a digger #-o 

I managed to put a 90mm nail into my thumb but though it struck the bone, it was a glancing blow and didn't break it. I didn't cry (honest  ) but was a bit p****d off as I had to throw the nail away :lol: 

Bob


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## Digit (29 Feb 2012)

> had to throw the nail away



Thumb nail or framing nail?

Roy.


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## Lons (1 Mar 2012)

Digit":zb14vxb8 said:


> > had to throw the nail away
> 
> 
> 
> Thumb nail or framing nail? Roy.



I'd still be in tears if it was my thumb nail :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## mhannah (2 Mar 2012)

Thanks for all the replies!

So I tried skew nailing (and screwing!) last night - and it definetely makes for a much more secure join.

A couple of problems though (1) skew nailing - once the nail is most of the way in it becomes difficult to hammer any further without damaging the wood. Is a nail-punch the only solution here? (2) skew 'screwing' - very difficult to get the screw-head flush with the surface - are there any tricks here?

In general - I found it difficult to get the nail or screw started - it often just skidded down the timber.

Any tips or tricks?


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## Digit (2 Mar 2012)

If using screws drill a pilot hole then countersink with a suitable drill, the screw should then pull below the surface.

Roy.


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## tophat (2 Mar 2012)

I find it easier to drill a skewed pilot hole from the end of the stud through to the side, because the angle of attack is less. So your drilling and then screwing from opposite sides. You obviously have to do it before you position the stud!


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## Jake (2 Mar 2012)

mhannah":qw78ftfv said:


> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> So I tried skew nailing (and screwing!) last night - and it definetely makes for a much more secure join.
> 
> A couple of problems though (1) skew nailing - once the nail is most of the way in it becomes difficult to hammer any further without damaging the wood. Is a nail-punch the only solution here?



Good isn't it. Once you have two crossed skews, it is very strong even with flimsy nails.

You don't need to bash them until the head is touching, leaving them hanging a bit does no harm, apart from visual.



> (2) skew 'screwing' - very difficult to get the screw-head flush with the surface - are there any tricks here?



Ditto



> In general - I found it difficult to get the nail or screw started - it often just skidded down the timber.
> 
> Any tips or tricks?



Start the nail/screw horizontal just so it bites, then pull it down to the angle you want.


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## mhannah (4 Mar 2012)

Thanks for all the advice everyone!
Got the first side framed-up this weekend - hopefully progress should be quicker now that I have the hang of it.

Lost quite a few drill bits to skewed pilot-holes though..


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