# Luban Chinese Block Plane



## Devmeister (19 Mar 2022)

In surfing the internet in search of photos and data of the Stanley 52 chute board, my newest reproduction project, I came across a Luban block plane. The main name is one I can’t spell but starts with a Q.

At first glance it looks like a copy of the Lie Nielsen plane but then it hit me.

Under the Obama administration, remember him?, he passed legislation requiring spent army brass to be ground up so that it couldn’t be reloaded.

The Chinese bought tons of this brass confetti. I have worked with valves made of this stuff and they don’t sweat solder very well. You can tell from the color of its bullet brass.

Bullet brass is an alloy designed for the special needs of cartridge function. It tends to be higher in tin and does not machine as well as regular brass. Tends to be a bit grab-ie and breaks small end mills with ease as a result.

Traditional woodworking tools were gun metal which is a bronze. LN uses either a silicone bronze or a manganese bronze.

The Leban plane cap is way to yellow. A tin like yellow. These guys are using bullet brass to make these tools.

If you are fine with that, that’s OK. I just don’t like it’s color and I don’t like it’s workability. Personally I gravitate towards the bronze alloys. This is esp true in how the tool patinates over time. There os nothing better than seeing an older LN #4 smooth plane that had seen years of loving use by a craftsman.


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## Sideways (20 Mar 2022)

Interesting observation.
My buddy has copper, brass, gunmetal and phosphor bronze in his workshop, bought as part of a secondhand job lot. We had to sort it and did so by colour. Side by side they are easy to group, you can also see colour differences between different alloy compositions to some extent.

I have a (probably Indian made) low angle block plane and that uses brass - it's distinctly yellow.
I have a vintage bronze infill plane casting that has a lovely warm colour from the high copper content.
The mechanics of my one recent LieNielsen scraper plane is definately far closer in colour to brass yellow than it is to warm vintage or phosphor bronze. I'll check it side by side with a bar of gunmetal now you've pricked my curiousity because the colour of gunmetal is between brass and the bronzes that we have.

Do you have any reason other than colour to think the Luban planes are made with military brass ? And as long as you don't have the chore of machining it, wouldn't the high tin alloy be stronger anyway ?


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## thetyreman (20 Mar 2022)

the LN block plane now costs £150 it's just gone up in price recently, luban is less than half the cost, but there's something good about the LN quality wise.


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## Devmeister (20 Mar 2022)

My bad. I meant to say zinc instead of tin. Sorry about that. Lack of sleep.


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## Devmeister (20 Mar 2022)

As I mentioned, I had a brain fart. Meant to say zinc instead of tin.

Getting technical! Bullet brass is C260. A general purpose brass like some brass bar and sheet is C360.

Bronze is a mixture of copper and tin.

Copper is one of the more difficult metals to machine. It’s like putting play putty on the lathe. Would rather deform than cut.

So C260 is already at a disadvantage as it is more copper like. Great in a gun as it expands in the chamber when you shoot.

But here is the pain in the rear. Zinc has a low boiling point. So it out gasses during a melt. A lot! The blueish smoke coming of the crucible is zinc vapor. Extremely toxic stuff. You need to add it back prior to pour. You can buy zinc pellets for this.

Bronze does not in general have this issue. Phosphor bronze, normally used in bearings, has a nice rose tint to it.


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## Devmeister (20 Mar 2022)

Don’t quote me on this as it’s been a while since I looked at the yellow metal used by LN. I believe it’s manganese bronze.

We all like bargains but I personally draw the line. LN is a socially responsible and environmentally responsible company. They ceased coconolo wood when the lumber poaching became an issue.

LN also had extremely high quality standards. A #7 or #8 jointer is ground within ONE thousandth of an inch flatness. And these are the worst cases.

LN uses ductile iron as does Veritas. More stable and not as brittle. As much as I love original planes, these are made from grey iron. The Chinese will use grey iron if they get the opportunity.

So I prefer the LN. I understand how painful it is but once bought it’s bought for life!


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## Devmeister (20 Mar 2022)

Now I am curious. LN uses manganese bronze. In general bronze is copper and tin. Brass is copper and zinc.

Where things get strange is that manganese bronze is a copper zinc alloy. So wouldn’t that be a brass? Phosper bronze is copper and tin with a tadof phosphorus.

It’s confusing is it not?


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## xraymtb (21 Mar 2022)

Devmeister said:


> The Chinese will use grey iron if they get the opportunity.


Sorry but this reads as a borderline racist comment about a company that I am sure you know very little about. Some of the best quality manufactured products in the world currently come out of China, quite possibly including many of the devices we are all using to interact with this forum. Generalising that 'The Chinese' will do anything is simply an uneducated and ignorant remark.

The rest of this thread reads like a LN advert or someone trying to justify an expensive purchase to themselves. I would be amazed if anyone could differentiate which materials are being used to the level you are trying to claim purely by looking at them. The proof is in the using and having been hands on with the planes you mention, the Luban/Quangsheng models are very high quality, produce excellent results, and are extremely good value in comparison to other high end models.


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## Orraloon (21 Mar 2022)

I tend to agree with the above. The Chinese will make whatever the the client wants at the cost level the client is aiming at. Good stuff you pay for, cheap and cheerful you take you'r chance. Rather than heap [email protected] on the manufacturing in China just ask who is asking for that stuff to be made. BTW I have a quengshang low angle block plane and reckon its pretty good. I did not trouble myself as to the metallic makeup of the brass cap. It's doing the job. Casting my eye about the workshop the bandsaw, thicknesser, jointer, miter saw, drillpress, sanding machines and most of the hand power tools are also made in china. Could that be because we did not like paying a living wage to our own people.
Regards
John


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## Eric R (21 Mar 2022)

xraymtb said:


> Sorry but this reads as a borderline racist comment about a company that I am sure you know very little about. Some of the best quality manufactured products in the world currently come out of China, quite possibly including many of the devices we are all using to interact with this forum. Generalising that 'The Chinese' will do anything is simply an uneducated and ignorant remark.
> 
> The rest of this thread reads like a LN advert or someone trying to justify an expensive purchase to themselves. I would be amazed if anyone could differentiate which materials are being used to the level you are trying to claim purely by looking at them. The proof is in the using and having been hands on with the planes you mention, the Luban/Quangsheng models are very high quality, produce excellent results, and are extremely good value in comparison to other high end models.


I remember the same kind of discourse around Japanese manufacturing from the late 70's with as similar chauvinist tone. A friend of mine had an old Datsun and some wrote on the car "J . .. junk." No one talks about Japanese cars being junk anymore. This cycle gets repeated: countries break into manufacturing in the low cost markets. Over time as their expertise and capacity grows, the companies move into higher-end markets where there's a bigger profit margin. Many of the low-end manufacturing industries have left China and moved on to Viet Nam and other places in Asia.


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## Devmeister (22 Mar 2022)

Have you ever worked in outsourced projects? Ask Kennedy about their experience with their tool boxes. Ask United about the king bolts that killed several hundred passengers in Chicago. Ask Demherest about his experience importing tonkin bamboo into the United States. The list is endless!

It is a known fact that if you out source, you need to move your own quality people over their to watch the operation like a hawk.

The three main factors of production is Material, Labor and Transportation. What gets made. How many get made, How to acquire raw material and who gets finished goods. Simple macro economics.

A major complaint in the past by women is that they were paid less for the same work. They wanted equal pay for equal work. That makes perfect sense.

The only economic rational for outsourcing is to obtain the product at a lower cost than available within local markets.

Assuming equal level of quality, the only way this is going to happen is if labor is extremely cheap. You also need to factor in the costs of the supply chain.

The Chinese system depends on this cheap source of labor. It is only right that a Chinese worker is paid the same as any other worker for the same job. This is not racist but only equitable practice. Now factor in the supply chain costs and it’s obvious that the same product from China should cost more not less.
My opinions are merely empirical observations based on work experience.


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## mark w (22 Mar 2022)

xraymtb said:


> Sorry but this reads as a borderline racist comment about a company that I am sure you know very little about. Some of the best quality manufactured products in the world currently come out of China, quite possibly including many of the devices we are all using to interact with this forum. Generalising that 'The Chinese' will do anything is simply an uneducated and ignorant remark.
> 
> The rest of this thread reads like a LN advert or someone trying to justify an expensive purchase to themselves. I would be amazed if anyone could differentiate which materials are being used to the level you are trying to claim purely by looking at them. The proof is in the using and having been hands on with the planes you mention, the Luban/Quangsheng models are very high quality, produce excellent results, and are extremely good value in comparison to other high end models.


"Borderline racist" how you come to that conclusion I really don't know, fact is as a manufacturing nation the Chinese are totally irresponsible, look at there polluted waterways through solar panel production. We all need to be more conscious of where and who we are buying from, Matthew at Workshop Heaven recently started selling tools from a Russian maker, personally I wouldn't entertain buying these and I hope he's stopped selling them, the maker may be harmless but his taxes prop up the Putin regime.


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## Devmeister (22 Mar 2022)

Why do you think the USA backed out of the Paris accord? Not because we support climate change but rather our opinions about mitigating it. China has and does enjoy most favored nation status. It is exempt from the environmental restrictions other western nations must adhere to.

The west coast of the US is now being affected by the pollution from China. It’s bad enough to travel that far and still offer a negative affect.

US oil production is amongst the cleanest in the world. Stray methane emissions from oil wells is at an all time low.

China burns coal to produce power and its power plants are amongst the worst in the world.

How about equitable fair play? Why can’t we hold the Chinese responsible to the same standards used for the USA or Europe?

And now we have that madman loose in Ukraine! Russian oil is both dirty and supportive of Putin. And who is struggling with their association with Russia? China.

Calling these issues racist is nothing short of the woke world burying their head in the sand thinking the problems will go away.


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## thetyreman (22 Mar 2022)

I don't think devmeister was being racist, he was talking about quality control and standards of manufacture, it's nothing to do with race.


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## thetyreman (22 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> Matthew at Workshop Heaven recently started selling tools from a Russian maker, personally I wouldn't entertain buying these and I hope he's stopped selling them, the maker may be harmless but his taxes prop up the Putin regime.



I think that's unfair, don't presume that the maker of the tools in russia supports Putin, he shouldn't be forced to take them off his website by woke politically correct people.


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## clogs (22 Mar 2022)

I don't mind where stuff is made but rather hate buying from the big 2 which supports a restrictive regime's....
I'm glad that we import nothing from N Korea....or do we.....?
Having lived all over this small planet, most peoples are really nice it's just the ODD few and Commies we need to watch for.....
I've been saying for years that the US and UK should only import oil / gas in limited amounts....
that means being self sufficient for domestic needs.....
Then we can let the likes of Putin and the TENT dwellers drink and snort the blxxdy stuff....


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## Majimoto (22 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> "Borderline racist" how you come to that conclusion I really don't know, fact is as a manufacturing nation the Chinese are totally irresponsible, look at there polluted waterways through solar panel production. We all need to be more conscious of where and who we are buying from, Matthew at Workshop Heaven recently started selling tools from a Russian maker, personally I wouldn't entertain buying these and I hope he's stopped selling them, the maker may be harmless but his taxes prop up the Putin regime.


I think it is going to make for extremely interesting times when we have to boycott Chinese products, if they support Russia during the present conflict . But the good side may be that we ( Europe) will start to make "cheap" goods to survive!?


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## Droogs (22 Mar 2022)

I would prefer if the west were to start making inexpensive rather than cheap. However, as we have spent the last 40 years or so getting rid of any way of producing anything other than very expensive or very leading edge it will take us at least 5 years to get to the point that we can produce that which we currently get the east to make for us. Even then we could only do it if we seriously invest in new plants using automated production and also invest in people to manage and operate them. But i doubt we will, we can even invest in a merchant navy or crews needed just to feed us


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## mark w (22 Mar 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I think that's unfair, don't presume that the maker of the tools in russia supports Putin, he shouldn't be forced to take them off his website by woke politically correct people.


 You didn't read my post correctly, I said probably the maker himself is harmless but his taxes will be put to bad use, unfortunately as with sanctions, they hurt everyone but are nonetheless the correct thing to do, no company in the UK should be trading with Russia, I'm hopeful Matthew at WH will feel the same. If denouncing the Putin regime and putting a bit of pressure on UK companies means I'm WOKE then I'm happy to be called that, sooner that than a hypocrite.


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## Tony Zaffuto (22 Mar 2022)

To me, I don't care where an item is made, provided the seller provides country of origin. Then we can buy from wherever we want.


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## Majimoto (22 Mar 2022)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> To me, I don't care where an item is made, provided the seller provides country of origin. Then we can buy from wherever we want.


I do think there is a moral imperative not to support aggression and acts of war against innocent populations.


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## thetyreman (22 Mar 2022)

Majimoto said:


> I do think there is a moral imperative not to support aggression and acts of war against innocent populations.



you can be anti war and pro capitalist though, that's pretty much where I stand, and a lot of russians are anti war and completely against putin.


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## Jameshow (22 Mar 2022)

Droogs said:


> I would prefer if the west were to start making inexpensive rather than cheap. However, as we have spent the last 40 years or so getting rid of any way of producing anything other than very expensive or very leading edge it will take us at least 5 years to get to the point that we can produce that which we currently get the east to make for us. Even then we could only do it if we seriously invest in new plants using automated production and also invest in people to manage and operate them. But i doubt we will, we can even invest in a merchant navy or crews needed just to feed us


If we can make Bentley and Aston Martin cars down to Ebac washing machines them we can make anything. What we don't have I'd the industrial / political leadership to do that. 

This country is run by financiers, accountants and lawyers who aren't interested in making anything. All they are interested in the share price / dividend which if they invested in manufacturing would be alot more productive to themselves and society.


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## raffo (22 Mar 2022)

Going back to the OP, apparently from some picture he saw on the Internet he deduced the Luban branded planes are junk and somehow Obama's fault. Yeah, that's not racist.


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## Eric R (22 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> "Borderline racist" how you come to that conclusion I really don't know, fact is as a manufacturing nation the Chinese are totally irresponsible, look at there polluted waterways through solar panel production. We all need to be more conscious of where and who we are buying from, Matthew at Workshop Heaven recently started selling tools from a Russian maker, personally I wouldn't entertain buying these and I hope he's stopped selling them, the maker may be harmless but his taxes prop up the Putin regime.


I guess you don't remember all the horrible pollution inflicted on people living in US by their "responsible" manufacturing. Here's a few to let you know that industrial pollution isn't a cultural/national issue, only povs are: 1. love canal The Love Canal Tragedy | About EPA | US EPA 2. Hinkley California Hinkley groundwater contamination - Wikipedia 3. Flint water contamination.


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## Eric R (22 Mar 2022)

Jameshow said:


> If we can make Bentley and Aston Martin cars down to Ebac washing machines them we can make anything. What we don't have I'd the industrial / political leadership to do that.
> 
> This country is run by financiers, accountants and lawyers who aren't interested in making anything. All they are interested in the share price / dividend which if they invested in manufacturing would be alot more productive to themselves and society.


history doesn't move backwards, fortunately. Here in the US, white people are always wanting to go back to the times like the 1950s as an ideal society. Except those easy economic times only happened because of lack of competition, WWII destroyed many other nation's industrial capacity and the racism of US kept white workers from having to compete fairly in the labor market with non-white workers. The reality is the consumers don't want goods made in the UK or US as much as they want low prices so that they can consume more.


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## Tony Zaffuto (22 Mar 2022)

Majimoto said:


> I do think there is a moral imperative not to support aggression and acts of war against innocent populations.


"I do think" is your personal opinion, and I respect your opinion. My opinion is, it is up to individuals to decide their own litmus test for purchases.


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## D_W (22 Mar 2022)

xraymtb said:


> Sorry but this reads as a borderline racist comment about a company that I am sure you know very little about. Some of the best quality manufactured products in the world currently come out of China, quite possibly including many of the devices we are all using to interact with this forum. Generalising that 'The Chinese' will do anything is simply an uneducated and ignorant remark.
> 
> The rest of this thread reads like a LN advert or someone trying to justify an expensive purchase to themselves. I would be amazed if anyone could differentiate which materials are being used to the level you are trying to claim purely by looking at them. The proof is in the using and having been hands on with the planes you mention, the Luban/Quangsheng models are very high quality, produce excellent results, and are extremely good value in comparison to other high end models.



I think in the US you'll find some cool opinions on the quangsheng planes not due to the origin, but due to the fact that QS started out copying LN and LV designs in a universe where enormous numbers of older tools were around and could've been copied. Part of this was probably due to what sells for the most now, and part was probably due to coordination with US and european retailers. 

Hearing about LN tools being high end of high priced sort of wears me out. When stanley was making planes, they cost a large fraction of a skilled tradesman's day's wage (the bigger planes cost a full day) before taxes. That's about what LN planes costs now. 

If LN had a significant profit margin, they wouldn't have been so dependent on a bank's yes or no when they wanted to expand a little bit about a decade ago. 

I don't think LN's business could even exist in a lot of the parts of the US due to local wage competition. 

I'd have a severe case of indifference about the QS tools if they would've copied established patterns, but the whole Chinese thing? Why would someone in China have a clue what's popular in the US. Almost certainly across the board, someone in the US or England was sending them stuff and saying "how much to make this?".


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## raffo (22 Mar 2022)

Since the thing with the shredded bullet casings that Obama supposedly banned never actually went into effect, and surprise surprise the policy was started by the previous Republican administration, where did Quangsheng get a hold of the tons of bullet brass to make their planes now?





__





Georgia Arms - FactCheck.org


Q: Did the Obama administration shut down a Georgia ammunition supplier? Is it trying to create an ammo shortage? A: Georgia Arms still is doing a booming business in reloaded military cartridges. The Pentagon quickly reversed a move to stop selling spent casings. FULL QUESTION I received this...




www.factcheck.org





Thirteen year old nonsense.


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## shed9 (23 Mar 2022)

A lot to unpack in this thread but basically; no one country is in any position to dictate a commercial moral high ground over any other, irrelevant of whether that's predicated on the use of cheap materials, cheap labour or cheap environmental & safety measures. We all live in countries that have questionable history when it comes to manufacturing and outsourcing, the only difference being where each country is in that timeline of development and opportunism.


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## mark w (23 Mar 2022)

Eric R said:


> I guess you don't remember all the horrible pollution inflicted on people living in US by their "responsible" manufacturing. Here's a few to let you know that industrial pollution isn't a cultural/national issue, only povs are: 1. love canal The Love Canal Tragedy | About EPA | US EPA 2. Hinkley California Hinkley groundwater contamination - Wikipedia 3. Flint water contamination.


1920s and 1960s, you've gone back in time to dig those up, most countries including ours have had some sort of pollution scandal, particularly during the industrial revolution. China is still doing it, not only that, their total disregard for workers rights and working conditions are astounding, plus at the moment the Chinese Government are backing Putin, but hey, if you can save a few quid buying a cheap block plane I guess it's all ok.


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## mark w (23 Mar 2022)

shed9 said:


> A lot to unpack in this thread but basically; no one country is in any position to dictate a commercial moral high ground over any other, irrelevant of whether that's predicated on the use of cheap materials, cheap labour or cheap environmental & safety measures. We all live in countries that have questionable history when it comes to manufacturing and outsourcing, the only difference being where each country is in that timeline of development and opportunism.


During the industrial revolution some pollution and working conditions could be put down to ignorance, the effects to start with were unknown, China or any other country can't use that excuse now, no matter where they are in their development, everybody knows the affects now.


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## shed9 (23 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> During the industrial revolution some pollution and working conditions could be put down to ignorance, the effects to start with were unknown, China or any other country can't use that excuse now, no matter where they are in their development, everybody knows the affects now.


You seriously think that the West's irresponsible attitude to manufacture and profit stopped in 1840? Really?


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## shed9 (23 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> China is still doing it, not only that, their total disregard for workers rights and working conditions are astounding, plus at the moment the Chinese Government are backing Putin, but hey, if you can save a few quid buying a cheap block plane I guess it's all ok.


This isn't a Chinese government or nation thing, this is a commercial and operating territory thing. Commercial entities across the globe use manufacturing territories pretty much wherever they want, including UK and US based companies. Sure, China may facilitate cheap labour and lower working standards but that's the carrot in this scenario not the stick. If you want to muse about geo economic politics and climb that horse, go ahead but understand how you play a role in that before getting comfortable in that saddle.


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## AlanY (23 Mar 2022)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> "I do think" is your personal opinion, and I respect your opinion. My opinion is, it is up to individuals to decide their own litmus test for purchases.



I agree and would prefer to follow my own moral compass rather than have one imposed upon me by a politician or political movement.


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## Bodgers (23 Mar 2022)

Devmeister said:


> In surfing the internet in search of photos and data of the Stanley 52 chute board, my newest reproduction project, I came across a Luban block plane. The main name is one I can’t spell but starts with a Q.
> 
> At first glance it looks like a copy of the Lie Nielsen plane but then it hit me.
> 
> ...


Your army brass story sounds like urban legend stuff to me.

The Luban planes have been around for a long time now and they have a decent reputation (concerns about country of origin excepted).

If you want definitive answers Matthew at Workshop Heaven should be able to answer as they have been selling them for a long time and I'm pretty sure he stands by the product.






New Quangsheng Handles


The new American cherry handled Quangsheng planes have arrived. They will be introduced across the full range, replacing the bubinga handles completely.




www.workshopheaven.com





I have the no. 6 Jointer and it is an excellent tool.


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## Droogs (23 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> 1920s and 1960s, you've gone back in time to dig those up, most countries including ours have had some sort of pollution scandal, particularly during the industrial revolution. China is still doing it, not only that, their total disregard for workers rights and working conditions are astounding, plus at the moment the Chinese Government are backing Putin, but hey, if you can save a few quid buying a cheap block plane I guess it's all ok.


You do realise these tools are already extant not made to order specially for you, are being sold by traders who have already paid any taxes the chinese govmt will ever get and therefore are in no way funding Putin


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## Rich C (23 Mar 2022)

Well this thread has encouraged me to get a Luban block plane, so thanks for that OP.


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## Majimoto (23 Mar 2022)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> "I do think" is your personal opinion, and I respect your opinion. My opinion is, it is up to individuals to decide their own litmus test for purchases.


Presuming you have a moral compass


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## Orraloon (23 Mar 2022)

I cant spend the time reading up on the current on trend moral high ground stance I should be taking every time I go to the hardware store. Now in my defense I did get my plane 12 years ago when I think we were helping China raise a billion people out of poverty. Some street cred there surely. However at the time I just thought it was a good buy. We would be in a pretty bare world if we did not have any Chinese made items around the house. I am sure sanctions will be on them too if they supply military aid to Putin but as Droogs just pointed out anything currently in the shops should not create a moral dilemma. Anyhow if looking to sanction a couple of things hows about a big ferry/shipping company and an international mail order mob that treats its workforce like serfs.
Regards
John


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## Bodgers (23 Mar 2022)

I don't see this as a one thing or another. I have bought new and sunk money into Western companies with new designs, i.e Veritas, but I've also bought Chinese. You can do both as budget and preference allow...

In my tool set I have:

Veritas Shooting Plane (Designed and made in Canada)

1950s Stanley 4 1/2 with a Veritas PMV11 blade (UK made bought used, blade new from Canada)

Luban No. 6 Jointer plane (Made in China, design based on US Bedrock pattern)

New Stanley SW Low Angle Jack (Designed in US, body made in Mexico, blade in UK)

New Stanley SW Block plane (Designed in US, body made in Mexico, blade in UK)

Soba No 5 grooved jack place (Made in India)

Soba shoulder plane (Made in India)

Stanley Router plane (UK made, 60's?)

ECE jack plane (Made in Germany) New

ECE block plane (Made in Germany) New

With such a wide range of components and the multinational nature of a lot of production it can be hard to boycott specific countries.


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## D_W (23 Mar 2022)

I don't think this is a horribly important point, but luban is a copy of an LN plane (or an attempt). The WR was, too, but some static between woodcraft and LN resulted in the WR having some machining and appearance items moved closer to bedrock. 

This is a snip from cosman's video comparing the two last year. I'm guessing the WR lost the square bits in the frog and maybe the copied hand wheel and probably a few other things on LN's plane close to 10 years ago. WR never put a brass/bronze lever cap on their planes in the US because you can get yourself in trouble here if you copy non-functional aspects of something too closely. Overseas, it's not like LN would chase someone down for selling Luban planes in the UK or Australia or wherever - they just don't have that much market there, but the static was enough to cause the change in the US. 

LN's plane is almost a copy of the bedrock, though -at least the general design. If they'd have copied the original closer, I think theirs would look better (they could still use their color scheme -LN that is). Several of stanley's design elements are more attractive. 

Comparing these two without stating they both started as a copy of LN's planes is a little weird, though. Early on, WR's smoothing plane was something like $129 often selling for $99 (with the squarish frog bits and who knows what else copied out of an LN). They're probably $200 here and comically, I saw on the australian forum that the WR planes often sell for the same as LN. That's humorous because woodcraft here generally has a huge markup due probably to their cost structure - both franchise owners and brick and mortar, which means lots of room is needed to pay a bunch of expenses that aren't incurred with mail order. Essentially, australians buying a WR plane are buying something that was made near them, but for someone in the US, originally copying something made in the US to be sold at a much lower price, and then it comes back to them in AU inflated even further. 

And the whole issue of trade dress resulted in a bunch of legal experts in australia about american law trying to explain away why woodcraft would remove the LN-like elements from the plane from V2 to V3, I believe. 







I would never buy a Luban or WR plane that was copied from an LN pattern to start, but that's my opinion and I don't expect other people to share it. 

You can see that both planes (well, you can't on the WR - in the video, the hand wheel to the left is still the LN copied version

(I have gibson guitar to thank for me learning so much about trade dress - and some of their - gibson's - failure to enforce some things because of making marketing claims about the capabilities of certain aspects of their guitars that really aren't functional - just marketing overreach. That ended up burning them because trade dress items have to be something distinctive but not functional. I guess function is covered by patent. The visual differences in the LN frog vs. the now adjusted WR frog on the left would be non functional, as would the color of the lever cap when the change in material offers no difference in function. 

Gibson is relatively well known here for doing better legal work than they do quality control on their guitars. At one point in the past, I bought a banjo from a maker and they wanted to ship me a banjo without a truss rod cover due to recent threat letters from gibson. The shape of a mastertone style banjo cover was always a bell. Gibson suddenly started trying to protect the bell shaped truss rod cover and suddenly banjos of other brands were shipped without them. I ended up having to get the truss rod cover in a separate envelope to calm the maker of the banjo, and then gibson shortly thereafter after threatening everyone folded their bluegrass division).


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## D_W (23 Mar 2022)

Majimoto said:


> Presuming you have a moral compass



His or yours? My moral compass suggests the needle shakes if I get near wood river planes. However, it doesn't prevent me from buying handmade guitar parts from russian makers. The dynamic there and perhaps with the russian toolmakers is they've literally dipped into american culture or european culture if what they're selling is something that is attached to the US. 

I'd imagine the guy on the ground making tools in russia isn't really thinking about toppling borders - he's probably trying to make a living and maybe not a real great one at that. That would go a little sideways if the guy made a twitter post about dirty (Fill in the blank - whoever putin needs to use to try to gain propaganda support. First it was nato, then, europe and a little of the UK, but as he's needed to dig deeper, it's mostly US now - the old pro wrestling narrative they have there, we're the heel).


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## raffo (23 Mar 2022)

I happened on a book on the history of steel making in Sheffield and America not long ago. In the intro the author described the harsh working conditions of the Sheffield worker, for certain some got paid well, but drinking was an issue as well as poor work safety. What struck me was the side note about grinders having life expectancies of 40 years. That's the backdrop of some of the tools we love so much. With such tainted history, is it ethically correct to use them? Of course it is, our whole world was built on the backs of our predecessors, this is how the world is and how it will be. 

Climbing high horses to shame others about their purchase choices is nonsense. 









Sheffield Steel and America


The book provides an important contribution to the technological and commercial history of crucible and electric steelmaking by thoroughly examining its development in Sheffield and American centres such as Pittsburgh. It also discusses cutlery, saw and file manufacturing, where the Americans...



www.google.com


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## Eric R (23 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> During the industrial revolution some pollution and working conditions could be put down to ignorance, the effects to start with were unknown, China or any other country can't use that excuse now, no matter where they are in their development, everybody knows the affects now.


You do know that lead pollution is still a big problem in the US. The US banned lead in paint and fuel long after Europe and long after there was clear evidence of harm. The asbestos industry knew the terrible harm os their product way back in the 1920s and continued to deny it, winning most lawsuits, until the 1970s when someone discovered minutes from board meetings from the 1920s discussing the danger. 

And you miss my point, China's evolution as an industrial nation obviously lagged behind the U.S. And just like in the US, the early stages of development have been messy. It's not a cultural, ethnic or national characteristic. It's a stage of industrial development.


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## Eric R (23 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> During the industrial revolution some pollution and working conditions could be put down to ignorance, the effects to start with were unknown, China or any other country can't use that excuse now, no matter where they are in their development, everybody knows the affects now.


And by the way here's a list of pollution scandals in the US that are on going. 8-horrible-water-scandals-us You're idea that the US industry is different bcs it's American is willfully ignorant.


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## D_W (23 Mar 2022)

Eric R said:


> And by the way here's a list of pollution scandals in the US that are on going. 8-horrible-water-scandals-us You're idea that the US industry is different bcs it's American is willfully ignorant.



My neighbor works at a seminary. They often house Chinese seminary students long term in a basement apartment, and I've talked to a bunch of them. I'm sure there are instances of water pollution in the US. If you mentioned pollution in the US, though, around any of these students, I doubt they'd take you seriously. 

They take picture of the sky here and talk about the pollution in China. They have a term for it that I've heard across the board. It's in their hearts now - the pollution. They believe they're permanently damaged and when I suggested that it's probably just a transition period and the water, soil and air here used to be polluted, they shake their head no and refer to the pollution there as being permanent. 

The magnitude of differences is enormous. It probably won't be forever. I didn't follow what they meant at first saying that "no, it's in our hearts", but I'm guessing they mean that the pollution permeates everything around them and their entire bodies to the core. 

None of them are able to stay here, but they don't go back to China once they're ordained. If they're not of means, they end up in other parts of the world like Africa or South America. 

I wonder what they're told about americans there because they go through a period of transition here where they're (the students somewhat, but especially their spouses) extremely guarded and suspicious of why people are nice to them for no reason.


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## D_W (23 Mar 2022)

by the way, the alkaline water thing is humorous. buy an expensive device to make your pee change, but not your blood PH. But definitely don't do the same thing with antacids or anything else. Has to be the water (which corresponds to what the touters are selling). Quacky stuff is a distraction from talking about water pollution.


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## Eric R (23 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> My neighbor works at a seminary. They often house Chinese seminary students long term in a basement apartment, and I've talked to a bunch of them. I'm sure there are instances of water pollution in the US. If you mentioned pollution in the US, though, around any of these students, I doubt they'd take you seriously.
> 
> They take picture of the sky here and talk about the pollution in China. They have a term for it that I've heard across the board. It's in their hearts now - the pollution. They believe they're permanently damaged and when I suggested that it's probably just a transition period and the water, soil and air here used to be polluted, they shake their head no and refer to the pollution there as being permanent.
> 
> ...


 It's clear the Chinese government pays people to surveil the students who are here. The Chinese government is definitely something to fear. I've also met many wealthy Indians who want to immigration to the U.S. because the pollution in India, especially the air pollution, is horrible. The novel White Tiger touches on the level of pollution industrialization has brought India. But none of the improvements here came about because industry happily reduced pollution. They fought every reduction tooth and nail and still use lobbyists to advocate to role back pollution measures. So before we celebrate how much better it is here, remember that there are still forces trying to roll back protection standards. Sure they'll argue that everything's gone too far etc., but since they've made the same arguments against every advance, it's hard to take their claims seriously. 

I read an article the other day where the author analyzed the campaign to deny climate change and its concomitant attacks on the science. The author argued that the tobacco industry created the playbook and one can see the rise of distrust in science and scientist begin to take hold as a result of the tobacco companies' campaigns.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

raffo said:


> Since the thing with the shredded bullet casings that Obama supposedly banned never actually went into effect, and surprise surprise the policy was started by the previous Republican administration, where did Quangsheng get a hold of the tons of bullet brass to make their planes now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The US military actually produces many more times the brass then the reloading world can swallow! Home Depot and Lowe’s sell brass sweat valves made in China from C260. They are much harder to sweat together. While it could be dimensional issues it may also be related to alloy issues. After getting burned figuratively and Literally I will not buy these valves!


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

In high school. We learned to cast metal. When a couple of us tried to cast brass, we went looking for scrap. The furnace began shooting. Some of the spent brass we used had primers in them from the farmer who did occasional reloading. After changing my underwear we managed to get a couple of pours done. I didn’t know much about C260 then but I was quite unhappy with this yellow like brass. I don’t like it and would never make a tool from it!


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

Bodgers said:


> Your army brass story sounds like urban legend stuff to me.
> 
> The Luban planes have been around for a long time now and they have a decent reputation (concerns about country of origin excepted).
> 
> ...



I recently with much trouble just got the LN #5 1/2 jack plane. It’s a wonderful tool.


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## mark w (24 Mar 2022)

shed9 said:


> This isn't a Chinese government or nation thing, this is a commercial and operating territory thing. Commercial entities across the globe use manufacturing territories pretty much wherever they want, including UK and US based companies. Sure, China may facilitate cheap labour and lower working standards but that's the carrot in this scenario not the stick. If you want to muse about geo economic politics and climb that horse, go ahead but understand how you play a role in that before getting comfortable in that saddle.


Slightly disagree with you, the carrot as you call it is the main stick, if the Chinese Government didn't allow it, it wouldn't happen, by the way I do know my role in this as a consumer and do my best to source things ethically. Some makers, some on this forum, make a big thing about where they buy their timber, locally sourced, FSC certified etc, which I agree with but then they fill their workshops with Chinese tools for their students to use, laughable really.


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## mark w (24 Mar 2022)

Eric R said:


> And by the way here's a list of pollution scandals in the US that are on going. 8-horrible-water-scandals-us You're idea that the US industry is different bcs it's American is willfully ignorant.


Wilfully ignorant??? In the main, most European countries have workers rights, standards for working conditions and an environment policy, also a legal system which allows redress if these rules are broken, we have this and so does the United States, what they all have in common is democracy, China and Russia do not. Where will I buy my new block plane, the UK, America or China, even though it may be cheaper, definitely not the latter.


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## mark w (24 Mar 2022)

Eric R said:


> You do know that lead pollution is still a big problem in the US. The US banned lead in paint and fuel long after Europe and long after there was clear evidence of harm. The asbestos industry knew the terrible harm os their product way back in the 1920s and continued to deny it, winning most lawsuits, until the 1970s when someone discovered minutes from board meetings from the 1920s discussing the danger.
> 
> And you miss my point, China's evolution as an industrial nation obviously lagged behind the U.S. And just like in the US, the early stages of development have been messy. It's not a cultural, ethnic or national characteristic. It's a stage of industrial development.


You miss my point, China may be lagging behind but there are examples of how to industrialise cleanly and ethically, mistakes made by us and other countries including America who basically went through industrialism at the same time made mistakes which China and other developing countries should learn from, dumping chemicals in waterways is not a messy mistake it is a wilful act, taken with the knowledge it will do harm, ignorance is no longer an excuse. Your points about asbestos, to start with the effects may have been covered up but nonetheless asbestos use is banned and those disposing of it have to do so in a safe way, the same with lead, it is now banned your analogy would suggest that China and other developing countries would allow the use of asbestos and and lead and expose workers to it because they are going through a messy industrial evolution, your argument is nonsensical. 
We live in a global society what we know is not exclusive to us.


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## mark w (24 Mar 2022)

Droogs said:


> You do realise these tools are already extant not made to order specially for you, are being sold by traders who have already paid any taxes the chinese govmt will ever get and therefore are in no way funding Putin


Dear God give me strength, if we stop buying them there is no demand and no tax if I were to buy something directly from Russia as Workshop Heaven do, the money I paid to that manufacturer or supplier would be taxed by the Russian Government, the tax goes to the Russian Government, in turn this is embezzled by the likes of Putin and his oligarch friends and is what is currently funding the war in Ukraine, this is what you are supporting when you buy an item made made in Russia.


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## Daniel2 (24 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> Dear God give me strength, if we stop buying them there is no demand and no tax if I were to buy something directly from Russia as *Workshop Heaven do*, the money I paid to that manufacturer or supplier would be taxed by the Russian Government, the tax goes to the Russian Government, in term this is embezzled by the likes of Putin and his oligarch friends and is what is currently funding the war in Ukraine, this is what you are supporting when you buy an item made made in Russia.



I recommend you bring yourself up to date regarding Workshop Heaven's policy on this.


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## mark w (24 Mar 2022)

Daniel2 said:


> I recommend you bring yourself up to date regarding Workshop Heaven's policy on this.


Perhaps you would post a link, I can't see anything regarding Russian tools and the Ukrainian war.


Daniel2 said:


> I recommend you bring yourself up to date regarding Workshop Heaven's policy on this.


Thank you, I have and am pleased to see their response, personally I wouldn't have stocked Russian tools after Russian Government employees walked into the UK and poisoned people, same principle.


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## Tony Zaffuto (24 Mar 2022)

The marketplace legislates what goods are accepted and what is not. Can’t sweat together borg copper components? Then don’t buy them! Soon Lowes and Home Depot will get the message! Ever try to thread borg black iron pipe? First, it is egg shaped, not round. Second, it has uneven hardness.

But, it is not a government intervention need, but more consumers need to decide what their level of acceptable quality is, for their purchases.


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## Droogs (24 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> Dear God give me strength, if we stop buying them there is no demand and no tax if I were to buy something directly from Russia as Workshop Heaven do, the money I paid to that manufacturer or supplier would be taxed by the Russian Government, the tax goes to the Russian Government, in tern this is embezzled by the likes of Putin and his oligarch friends and is what is currently funding the war in Ukraine, this is what you are supporting when you buy an item made made in Russia.


Firstly, I am not your intern.
Secondly, I already know that some taxes are indeed stolen
Thirdly, the stolen money is not used to fund the invasion of UKraine. Only the un-stolen money raised by tax is used to fund Russion government project. The stolen money is used to line the pockets of Putin and his chums.

Try to think about what you type before giving us the verbage of your considered opinion.


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## Rich C (24 Mar 2022)

My block plane arrived today, seems like a nicely made item. Even came reasonably sharp which was unexpected!


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## AJB Temple (24 Mar 2022)

I bought a Luban bronze plane a few years ago. I had no idea it was a LN copy at the time. I tend to the view that planes have been around for a very long time and they are all pretty much the same really: a sharp bit of steel held at an angle to cut or scrape wood. That's it. Anyway, the Luban is a fine little plane, very well made and useful. I recommend them.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

Yah all block planes tend to look alike, some more than others.

The Clifton block plane does have its unique features. The body is vacuum cast bronze. The adjuster is based on the Norris design. The cap iron is a two piece design made from wood and bronze.

Just ordered one and will collect when I am over there on business on a couple of months.


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## D_W (24 Mar 2022)

The reason for the mention of the luban block planes being copies of LN isn't because there's something functionally different about LN (maybe the adjusters are slightly better), but more that they copied pretty much every aesthetic on the LN when there'd be no great reason to. I'm guessing someone was given an LN block plane and asked if they'd copy it and copy it they did. 

Woodcraft didn't sell the block plane because it was too much of an overt copy of every aesthetic thing on an LN plane and later came out with a knuckle cap plane for the US. I'm not guessing that's why - they told me that. 

It's not my business if someone else buys a copy, though. I wouldn't be surprised if an enterprising individual one in a while doesn't ship a box of 100 of those planes over to amazon and use amazon to sell them through the fulfillment services (just as chosera and atoma stones show up now, and the US distributor of the former doesn't appear to carry them any longer. In my opinion, distribution doesn't add value when it's not needed and the price doubles, anyway). 

Interestingly, when you search for Luban planes on google, the F.o.g. forum has a thread comparing the LN and luban version, loudly decrying the price of the LN plane making it a "bad value". While that would normally be humorous, the fact that it's on a festool forum is doubly so.


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## mark w (24 Mar 2022)

Droogs said:


> Firstly, I am not your intern.
> Secondly, I already know that some taxes are indeed stolen
> Thirdly, the stolen money is not used to fund the invasion of UKraine. Only the un-stolen money raised by tax is used to fund Russion government project. The stolen money is used to line the pockets of Putin and his chums.
> 
> Try to think about what you type before giving us the verbage of your considered opinion.


Right back at you, "intern" you've lost me.
I didn't say the stolen money is funding the war, I said tax money is embezzled and is used to fund the war. 
Please try reading my post properly. 
TIA.


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## Rich C (24 Mar 2022)

For me it's about good enough for the price, the Luban cost me £55 whereas the LN seems to go for £185, just over three times the price is pretty hard to justify for what I imagine amounts to a fairly small improvement in quality. For the same reason I don't own any Festool gear, while I have no doubt it's excellent, I can good enough for less than half the price by buying a different brand.

When it comes down to it they're all pretty much Stanley copies anyway.


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## AJB Temple (24 Mar 2022)

I am not convinced DW. There are a lot of block planes about that have a very similar shape. Some rather old. Even if Luban is a direct copy, and that is potentially open to question, it is not harming LN's sales, because LN deliberately restricts its output. 

I think all the stuff about this that and the other method for making the castings is of no interest at all to 99% of buyers. They just want a plane that works well, is easy to adjust and easy to sharpen. 

As it happens I do have some LN planes, and Veritas, and Clifton and old Records and Stanleys. By and large the are much of a muchness, though I think the Veritas shooting board plane is the best on the market by miles, and the Veritas block plane is superb (better than the LN in my hands). However, the LN, Veritas and the small Luban all work very well. I think the tool aficionados and collectors tell themselves that they can discern metallurgy differenced etc, but really we are at the extremes of functionality there for most of us.


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## Rich C (24 Mar 2022)

As a woodworker the only metallurgy I care about on a plane is the steel for the iron. Whether the brass casting for the handle is this alloy or that is of no bearing whatsoever on my use of the plane.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

Microsoft and Apple waged wars with each other over the look and feel of their interface. My old computer company had an ASIC with a logic error. We fixed it in software. A Chinese copy shows up in which the same logic error was found!

Autodesk uses an online license manager. You have to renew each year. In my case Autocad LT. I just found a link selling a lifetime license of LT for 60 bucks. Pay up and get a download key. The IP address traces to China.

LN had developed a unique look and feel to their tools as had Veritas. It theirs and it should be protected. I am sure LN could bring legal claims against LUBAN if they sell within the US market.

Protection of intellectual property is a major issue with China. In England, guys building Stuart steam engines on YouTube are not allowed to show the Stuart drawings as it’s a copyright infringement. Rolex has major issues with clone watches.

But it is perfectly ethical for Luban to clone LN tools and sell them? I guess we do have double standards.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

The Veritas shooting plane is unique to their credit. But it’s a low angle design.

My use of a shooting plane like the Stanley 51 is unique. While folks use the lateral adjuster to adjust the blade to cut a perfect 90 degree cut, I use it to do the opposite. As a tool maker I need to make patterns which involve draft angles on small parts. The 51 works wonders to this end.

At the end of the day, everyone needs to make their own decisions. Do you honor the CITES treaty or not? Do you honor the use of FSC certified materials? Do you honor intellectual property that it is not your own? Do you support repressive regimes who take advantage of labor and deny basic civil liberties you take for granted. As consumers we do have some choice in the matter.


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## AJB Temple (24 Mar 2022)

I think if LN have an issue, then they can address it. Did the appoint you as their spokesperson or moral arbiter for the rest of us? Thought not. The horse you are on is rather high. A plane is a plane is a plane. They've been around a long time and the detail differences are pretty trivial. If you don't want to be copied, then you need to be a) innovative, b) patented and c) willing to defend. Much as I like LN I think they too have copied long standing designs.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

As a tool maker, the devil is in the details. As a basic woodworker it’s much less so. LN never truly copied an old design. They have numerous improvements to the old designs and provided access to tools that were no longer available to the average craftsman. The LN plane is superior to the old Bedrocks. I have some old bedrocks and can compare.

Secondly Stanley ceased all production of these planes decades ago and allowed legal protection to these designs to expire. Never mind the legal battles between Stanley and Bailey which is an entire subject in itself.

The major issue of any legal protection of intellectual property ultimately boils down to one of venue. Violate a patent in the USA and you will have some lovely discussions with US attorneys!

But China is NOT the USA or England. It’s laws are different and they view intellectual property protection with distain.

Many folks do product reviews. Some do it on YouTube. They are neither appointed nor sponsors. Some may be sponsored but many are not. So anyone can review a product on their own accord with their own opinions. As a consumer you can agree or disagree with these opinions. It’s the magic of free speech and the privilege of not being censored.

I personally would never buy a Luban for a variety of reasons. That is also my privilege.


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## D_W (24 Mar 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I think if LN have an issue, then they can address it. Did the appoint you as their spokesperson or moral arbiter for the rest of us? Thought not. The horse you are on is rather high. A plane is a plane is a plane. They've been around a long time and the detail differences are pretty trivial. If you don't want to be copied, then you need to be a) innovative, b) patented and c) willing to defend. Much as I like LN I think they too have copied long standing designs.



Actually, that's not true. 

If you want to not have your functions patented, you have to be patented. 

If you want to not have your non-functional identifying aspects copied, that's just basic trademark law in the US. The only thing that really prevents trade dress suits is:
1) cost
2) if you're trying to use trade dress as a way to intimidate other makers who are copying functional things, you can lose and if you lose, you've set precedent and can't make threats about the loss

If we step back and pretend that LN sells 100MM of the block planes and the luban block plane comes on the market in the US, the lawsuit would be pretty easy to win unless luban could prove that the distinctive visual elements unique to LN are functional. 

Early on, I sort of wondered if copying the LN planes was also partly due to the assumption that it would be safer than making a dead copy of a stanley bedrock since stanley is still in business. No clue on that. At the time, LN planes sold for 2-3x most bedrock planes. If you can copy the visual and non-functional material aspects of a competitor, you give people the impression that the items are identical other than the brand an origin. 

if you're the company that created something style or trade wise, it's a simple thing - someone else is taking your investment in brand and appearance and trading on it.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> Actually, that's not true.
> 
> If you want to not have your functions patented, you have to be patented.
> 
> ...


 This is absolutely correct. If you sell a soda called Cooke instead of Coke with everything else being equal, the summons is not if but when!


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## D_W (24 Mar 2022)

Here's a summary of what happened similar with guitars. 



Gibson Loses Trademark Appeal - The Steel Guitar Forum



The reality with the guitars, though, is that nobody who was buying guitars would confuse a PRS for a gibson across the room, even if body types were similar. 

But over the years, the courts have established for guitars at least that the peghead shape is the identifying aspect of a guitar because aspects of it beyond holding tuners are non-functional. The rest of a guitar has been advertised at one point or another to have a function, which is what cost gibson in the end. 

It's a little scary that they won the initial case. 

It took 5 years for this case to go through the court. The difference between the first case and the second case was literally as simple as PRS stating on appeal that gibson advertised that single cutaway guitar has a different sound (functionally) than a double cut guitar. It's probably not true, but they stuck themselves advertising that it does to attract customers. 5 years and probably 10s of millions of dollars in costs, and that's what it came down to. 

The precedent is set in the US now and you can make a les paul copy as long as you don't copy certain aesthetics on the guitar peghead or do certain aesthetic-only things on a guitar. Gibson has threatened to sue heritage (a former gibson manufacturing site) for making a guitar with an orange burst finish and two piece maple top. This is a color and look thing - and apparently heritage had an agreement from them much earlier that it would be OK to do the stylistic copying - one that probably originated from when Gibson moved production to the south to make guitars at a lower cost. Then, the business is suddenly worth a lot more and they changed their mind. 

Finish color and figure on wood is kind of like all of the little visual aspects on an LN plane (like the shape of the routs inside the frog or the lever cap material and color). 

The thing that started the gibson lawsuit as I recall is gibson was battling it out with the largest guitar retailer in the US as they were raising prices at a high rate back then. PRS offered to make a functionally similar guitar and torpedoed gibson's leverage, so gibson sued to try to more or less own the entire market of single cutaway electric guitars. That's a little odd given that they have existed for probably 60 years in other brands in the US, just not with a copied peghead shape. Luban/WR planes originated from a battle between WC and LN about supply numbers and about how the planes are demonstrated. It's not that much different. except the scale of the companies is different in the guitar suit by probably about a factor of 30 on average between the two.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

Here is a stupid question. Is there a tie between Luban and Wood River? I know both originate from China.

Woodcraft and Rockler are two large retail competitors in the USA. Years ago wood craft carried Bulldog. Bulldog made a nice cast iron router table top. Then almost overnight it was gone. WC is down the road and Rockler is to hell and gone from me. I learned that Rockler had bought Bulldog and WC dropped the line as a result.

Now while WC has the right to do so, such actions also affect the choice of products consumers ultimately purchase. Needless to say I took more business to Rockler. I also decided that more consumer product review is needed before I decide on something. You want to buy a product that best meets your needs and requirements than the whims of a retailer. Ultimately your the boss.

Each year the big thing was the woodworking show. A three day Orgee of woodworking. Lie Nielsen and Micro-were always there. The number of customers at the LN booth was insane. Deneb had Black hair then. It was clear to me then that there was a consumer disconnect on the proper use of the tools. YouTube was You-who? The issue was on setting up tools, adjusting throats, sharpening etc. It was also a chance to get hands on with new offerings.

Micro-Fence did the same thing. While I don’t use electric routers much I still use them. I cannot say enough about the basic micro fence design.

Both would leave the show as they were involved in marketing and the show in general interfered with the objectives they had. Both companies were concerned about making sure customers were satisfied. If someone buys a 450 dollar plane and can’t use it advertised, you have a problem. The plane gets sent back as defective and the consumer spreads negative propaganda. A little bit of education would eliminate this sernerio.

Years ago Rivette made a precision toolroom lathe known as the 608. In their brochure they clearly stated that they would prefer only experienced machinists to buy this lathe and that amateurs should go elsewhere as they would injure the reputation of the company.

we have come a long way since those days but education still remains key. Forums like YouTube have really helped but you have to fish thru the none useful material to seek the useful material.

As you become more proficient you begin to seek out the better tools and often deal with the online tool makers. I know what I want. So I go to Lie Nielsen’s site or to say Shane skeltons site. Lead times are an issue here but now you can get what you want without the clouded policies of retailers like wood craft or Rockler.

Before the main stream knew what a dovetail saw was, I bought one from independence tool. All I had to work with was an email address. No website then. I got jpegs emailed to me. LN would ultimately buy independence tool.

Customer support is important and customer satisfaction is important. It’s a time consuming evil that generates no revenue but has much greater benefits to your success. If I need a replacement part, I call LN. Done! If one of my older customers needs a part for an infill I did six years ago, I need to make the part. Done! Oh I am sorry but we don’t support that model anymore or we don’t carry spares simply won’t cut it! If a customer is having issues with getting a super fine shaving, you take the time to hold his hand.


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## raffo (24 Mar 2022)

Devmeister said:


> Is there a tie between Luban and Wood River? I know both originate from China.



The Luban brand is manufactured by a company called Cixi City Qiangsheng Tools Co. (qstools.com) I think Luban is a brand sold in the UK. In Germany they're sold under the Juuma brand. They probably also manufacture the planes sold under the WoodRiver brand or did in the past.

When these planes are examined, they're similar, but not identical. These planes are made under contract and specifications of the companies that ultimately sell them. Evidently they're as good as the design and manufacturing quality allows. This notion that because they're Chinese they're of lower quality is a very simplistic conclusion. The idea that all these companies that contract for these planes are somehow bamboozled into accepting low quality products doesn't make any sense. They know exactly what they're ordering and what they're getting.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

As mentioned manufacturing in China is a challenge. You get what you order and what you pay for. It’s all over the board.

The Luban planes are sold with the Ryder, made to a British specification. England often had these. Engineering squares often specified a British specification even years back. Exactly what this specification is can vary,

So yes, many manufacturers in China do know how to manufacture things even to a variety of quality levels. It’s up to the customer to establish the specification or standard to the most intricate detail and to ultimately verify adherence to the standard. That is what I mean when I said you have to watch them like a hawk. Omit an item in the specification and your likely to be disappointed.

But as you up the game, you also up the price making the value of off shore production less effective. It’s a trade off and many inferior products reflect this trade off.

American Furniture imports tons of product. About 50 percent is unsellable for a variety of reasons. They have a shop that fixes some of these issues in order to sell them. Some is just thrown away. AF still makes money and views this as a cost of business with China.


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## raffo (24 Mar 2022)

One has to verify the quality of outsourced parts or products, that's a given. It would be irresponsible not to do it. The big bucks paid to certifying bodies to get ISO or CE marks are not wasted. 

I'm with David above, too. I would not buy products made to imitate the cosmetic look of recognized brands. It's not the manufacturer that came up with the design and surprised the contracting company with a product that looks like a famous brand. The Chinese maker is paid to make what's being asked to make, why would they care what it looks like or have an obligation to ensure that it doesn't look like someone else's product?


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## rafezetter (24 Mar 2022)

Eric R said:


> I remember the same kind of discourse around Japanese manufacturing from the late 70's with as similar chauvinist tone. A friend of mine had an old Datsun and some wrote on the car "J . .. junk." No one talks about Japanese cars being junk anymore. This cycle gets repeated: countries break into manufacturing in the low cost markets. Over time as their expertise and capacity grows, the companies move into higher-end markets where there's a bigger profit margin. Many of the low-end manufacturing industries have left China and moved on to Viet Nam and other places in Asia.



The early Datsuns WERE junk, they just were; just as REGULARLY seen now in china, manufactured to the lowest cost, and only after a significant number of failures and issues did they raise the standard to get continued sales. It was the reverse of Western manufacturing ethos at the time which was "make it good, then chisel away at it to get the cost down."

Let's be brutally honest, reputations are EARNED not given; "the Chinese" to mean collectively the manufacturing base of China are well documented as having stolen the IP's of pretty much EVERYTHING worth manufacturing, and quite a lot of things that just baffle the mind. They have been proven to cut corners at every opportunity given even half a chance, as someone else stated, and there are documented cases of high quality components being swapped for junk once "the inspectors" have left.

Life is cheap to them, and so are human rights and morality.

Are chinese companies capable of high quality maufacturing? Yes. Do they do it ALL THE TIME as a matter of routine such as the reputation the Swiss and Germans have? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Is it "borderline racism" to make a statement that the chinese would make something out of junk and pass it off as "good" if given the chance? No, because they HAVE, multiple times.

They earned that reputation, and THEY really don't care about it, or how far they take it, as long as they can chisel an extra 1p out of the manufacturing costs.

Are they the only ones doing it? No, people will be people. Are they guilty of doing it the most often? Asolutely yes.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

I just researched the Juuma planes. It appears, from multiple internet sources, that the wood river planes, the juuma planes and the Luban planes are all made by the same factory in China.

It’s also confirmed that the juuma planes and Luban planes use C260 to make the caps. That is neither here nor there.

Each local retailer specs out what they want and the Chinese build it with minor changes.

These planes were referred to in multiple net sources as Lie Nielsen clones. Several reviews noted them as such but also noted that they are not up to the standards of LN. However at 1/3 to 1/2 the price, they should be considered.

But they all compare themselves to the LN. Works almost as good as LN. Looks just like a LN. Performs almost as well as a LN. And so on it goes…… Well eventually you realize everyone wants to be LN and maybe you should just get a LN.

LN prices have been constant and reflect the skill and workmanship invested in the tool. If the Chinese planes want to be equal, then they need to execute equal. Unfortunately that means pricing their work accordingly. No one has an issue here. Equal pay for equal work.

If you look at Holtys planes, you enter another realm. The quality of his work exceeds the standards in aerospace! And his prices reflect that. Overkill? Most likely.


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## D_W (24 Mar 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I am not convinced DW. There are a lot of block planes about that have a very similar shape. Some rather old. Even if Luban is a direct copy, and that is potentially open to question, it is not harming LN's sales, because LN deliberately restricts its output.
> 
> I think all the stuff about this that and the other method for making the castings is of no interest at all to 99% of buyers. They just want a plane that works well, is easy to adjust and easy to sharpen.
> 
> As it happens I do have some LN planes, and Veritas, and Clifton and old Records and Stanleys. By and large the are much of a muchness, though I think the Veritas shooting board plane is the best on the market by miles, and the Veritas block plane is superb (better than the LN in my hands). However, the LN, Veritas and the small Luban all work very well. I think the tool aficionados and collectors tell themselves that they can discern metallurgy differenced etc, but really we are at the extremes of functionality there for most of us.



Fortunately ,I don't have to convince you. Woodcraft already removed LN-like elements from earlier WR planes to avoid trouble. I don't have to guess that - they told me that. The same as they said there was no way they'd touch bringing in the luban style plane, which was an inconvenience for them because they had to come up with something else (that turned out to be the knuckle block plane). They offered to send me one to try - I declined it. 

I've seen a lot of threats about trade dress in the US - fairly uncommon on small things that it makes it to court because it's costly to try. Letters and arguments are usually enough to get people to go another way. I doubt it was cost free for WR to have a different frog design stuffed in the bench planes, but it's better than getting hauled into court.


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## D_W (24 Mar 2022)

raffo said:


> I'm with David above, too. I would not buy products made to imitate the cosmetic look of recognized brands. It's not the manufacturer that came up with the design and surprised the contracting company with a product that looks like a famous brand. The Chinese maker is paid to make what's being asked to make, why would they care what it looks like or have an obligation to ensure that it doesn't look like someone else's product?



Most of us have no clue what's going on in other countries, and we have a lot more information access in general, whether it be means or a generally free internet to browse. 

Somewhere around a decade ago, I mentioned getting a couple of mujingfang planes that were made of ebony (they were really nice - with a pretty good HSS iron, they were less expensive than the ebony would've been in the first place). 

Someone on either SMC or woodnet loudly declared they'd never buy planes from someone who copied HNT gordon's planes. 

Which is comical because the Chinese planes were traditional Chinese design. I couldn't convince the person at the time that Chinese plane makers can make traditional Chinese designs without being accused of copying Australian Planemakers.


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## Bodgers (24 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> The reason for the mention of the luban block planes being copies of LN isn't because there's something functionally different about LN (maybe the adjusters are slightly better), but more that they copied pretty much every aesthetic on the LN when there'd be no great reason to. I'm guessing someone was given an LN block plane and asked if they'd copy it and copy it they did.
> 
> Woodcraft didn't sell the block plane because it was too much of an overt copy of every aesthetic thing on an LN plane and later came out with a knuckle cap plane for the US. I'm not guessing that's why - they told me that.
> 
> ...


But how much of the Luban stuff is actually copying Lie Nielson, and how much is simply just the Bedrock pattern design? If they copied the changes LN made to the bedrock pattern then that's riding on the coattails of their efforts, fair cop.

I guess one of the reasons why I feel a bit easier about the Luban stuff is that they seem more copies of well out of patent Stanley/Bedrock designs. If they were copying the Veritas designs then they would be on shaky ground.


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## raffo (24 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> Someone on either SMC or woodnet loudly declared they'd never buy planes from someone who copied HNT gordon's planes.
> 
> Which is comical because the Chinese planes were traditional Chinese design. I couldn't convince the person at the time that Chinese plane makers can make traditional Chinese designs without being accused of copying Australian Planemakers.



How about copying Chinese furniture style? Chippendale’s designs include Chinese motifs. All this talk of about how ethically superior we are in the west is BS. When it suited us we didn't hesitate to trample on other people's freedoms or the environment.


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## Devmeister (24 Mar 2022)

Decades ago, several shops were involved in making guns for the military. The government made it clear that shops could borrow designs, ideas etc. if it was in the interest of making more guns. This spread machine tool technology around like butter.

Eli Whitney was one of them and credited for inventing the milling machine.

The Chinese planes are made from grey iron as are the Cliftons. LN went straight to using ductile iron which is more durable and stable.

The LN rabbit block plane was based on the old Sargent design but modified. It looks like a LN and it has cross grain spurs. The Leban version resembles LN’s plane including subtle changes LN made to the original Sargent. It also does not have cross grain spurs.

The LN frogs are different from the original bedrock frogs. LN made it clear their frogs are not interchangeable. In addition LN frogs carry changes that allow them to scale up in bed angle. The original Bailey pattern can bind up at angles higher than 45 degrees. So you can get a York pitch for example in a LN bench plane.

The original Stanley 51 had issues with its frog design. Not only was it not a bedrock but it basically a cut down #3 Bailey shoved in at an angle. The LN design is a much better plane and I can adjust the bed angle with alternative frogs if need be.

I own two bedrocks from my grand dad. A 603 and a 604. I prefer my LN 4.5 much more. The first plane I ever bought was a LN #1. I use it as a model plane and it’s great. And it does not have a bed rock frog.

The good news is that WC refused to bring in the Luban patent in deference to LN. If Luban erodes the LN market enough, LN could simply pull out of that market. This would be sad to markets like England with their wonderful woodworking history.


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## D_W (24 Mar 2022)

I think the wood river planes are steel and not cast iron. The v2 version at least could be dropped and hammered without breaking. 

The irons were water hardening steel, which made some people who really just wanted a dead copy of an ln unhappy.


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## D_W (24 Mar 2022)

I see the ad copy for the v3 planes claim ductile cast. The increases in cost are a matter of weirdness to me, but the business arrangement in the us for woodcraft franchises is expensive in a way that's not useful to buyers.


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## Rich C (24 Mar 2022)

The Luban block plane claims to be ductile iron but I have not tested it to be sure.


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## D_W (24 Mar 2022)

Rich C said:


> The Luban block plane claims to be ductile iron but I have not tested it to be sure.



If we haven't heard of them breaking, it probably is. I thought the earlier steel planes were unsightly, but I think the castings on the current planes look more normal.

They may have needed to move to cast iron to be able to make a jointer plane.


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## Devmeister (25 Mar 2022)

I found references on a few sites stating grey iron. they may have gained recent access to ductile iron. While cast steel exists it is much more expensive and difficult to pour. More metalurgy control and higher temperatures. It could have been a semi steel like Oliver once used but I am not sure.

I think I saw references to grey iron on the dieter Schmidt site. I know Clifton is still using grey iron according to their site.

If they are using ductile iron, then that is an improvement. I am not saying grey iron is evil. The steam engine I am currently working on is grey iron as many older machines were as well.

Ductile iron was invented some time around the 1940s when they discovered the iniculents to convert iron into ductile iron. A special recipe of herbs and spices . They then created the Meehanite Society to control this new alloy. All of the original ductile alloys were listed as meehanite alloys and the foundries even had to get licensed to use it. They were meehanite certified. They even controlled how patterns were to be made to control non linear cooling effects.

Today we have many non meehanite certified ductile irons but one thing remains. The inoculents are complex. These need to added just before the pour. Often a sample is taken to the lab from each major pour.

Grey iron is easy. I just tods in a bit of ferro-silicone and off we go. When you melt iron, it often out gases the inoculents or they float to the top as dross. That is why you add just before the pour and pour as quickly as possible to allow the inoculents to do their job.

If you don’t know, drill a tiny hole in the iron. If the chips are dust like, it’s grey iron. If they are more stringy like steel, it’s ductile.

Planes have thin bodies meaning they can break easy and warp easy. Ductile really helps here.


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## raffo (25 Mar 2022)

From reading the applications where ductile iron is used, their use on bench planes seems overkill. Granted, if you drop your plane on a concrete floor it will probably break, but warping is not an issue I've heard of regarding vintage planes. 

Stanley produced steel bench planes, models like S4 and S5 can be found in the market. Drop forged plane bodies were available at some point, look up Vaughan & Bushnell planes.


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## Devmeister (25 Mar 2022)

Warpage in vintage planes has been an issue. The worst area often around the throat. Iron sewerage pipe is ductile iron. Do you need ductile iron to channel terds down a pipe? None of the forged planes and steel planes ever won a following. The carbon in both grey and ductile give the plane less friction in use.


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## Devmeister (25 Mar 2022)

raffo said:


> From reading the applications where ductile iron is used, their use on bench planes seems overkill. Granted, if you drop your plane on a concrete floor it will probably break, but warping is not an issue I've heard of regarding vintage planes.
> 
> Stanley produced steel bench planes, models like S4 and S5 can be found in the market. Drop forged plane bodies were available at some point, look up Vaughan & Bushnell planes.


Wouldn’t the use of V11 also be overkill. The Luban/Juuma planes are using T1. According to the knife guys it’s not very good. Low toughness leads to chip out.


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## Bodgers (25 Mar 2022)

Devmeister said:


> I found references on a few sites stating grey iron. they may have gained recent access to ductile iron. While cast steel exists it is much more expensive and difficult to pour. More metalurgy control and higher temperatures. It could have been a semi steel like Oliver once used but I am not sure.
> 
> I think I saw references to grey iron on the dieter Schmidt site. I know Clifton is still using grey iron according to their site.
> 
> ...


What's the actual difference in performance?

I have both Veritas and Luban planes and I'm not detecting anything...


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## Devmeister (25 Mar 2022)

Bodgers said:


> What's the actual difference in performance?
> 
> I have both Veritas and Luban planes and I'm not detecting anything...


]
Short Term: Drop them and see what happens.

long Term: blue up bottom with cobalt blue marker and check against a reference plate.


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## raffo (25 Mar 2022)

Devmeister said:


> Wouldn’t the use of V11 also be overkill. The Luban/Juuma planes are using T1. According to the knife guys it’s not very good. Low toughness leads to chip out.


I've paid as low as $20 for a type 11 Stanley plane with plenty of steel left in the iron. Would I fork out $80 for a PM-V11 to supposedly take it to the next level? No. I do have a couple of those irons, but I'm not blown away to the point that I'm going to replace the irons of all my planes. With the help of DW I've made a few replacement irons out of O1, they work pretty well, I'm more willing to spend money and time doing that.


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## D_W (25 Mar 2022)

Devmeister said:


> Wouldn’t the use of V11 also be overkill. The Luban/Juuma planes are using T1. According to the knife guys it’s not very good. Low toughness leads to chip out.



It's hard to figure out what they're using, but I think it's water hardening steel. If i had one in hand, i could tell you based on how it feels on stones and on a grinder immediately (even O1 has a substantially different feel than 1095 or a basic alloy that's got some extra stuff for carbide quality/toughness). 

The trouble with their designation - I recall seeing the iron designation as T10 - is that it's the same name as the tungsten series of HSS. Tungsten is expensive - it's not going to be that, or we'd also hear about how slow they are to sharpen and how the grain is coarse. 

What I see of T10 is 1 part it's 1095 equivalent and 9 parts "It's steel with silicon and a lot of tungsten". 

1095 is chippy. I'll update a chart that I got from testing my stuff and you'll see why (though I think charpy notch or unnotched toughness doesn't always do a great job to explain what will work well in a plane iron).


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## Bodgers (25 Mar 2022)

Devmeister said:


> I found references on a few sites stating grey iron. they may have gained recent access to ductile iron. While cast steel exists it is much more expensive and difficult to pour. More metalurgy control and higher temperatures. It could have been a semi steel like Oliver once used but I am not sure.
> 
> I think I saw references to grey iron on the dieter Schmidt site. I know Clifton is still using grey iron according to their site.
> 
> ...





Devmeister said:


> ]
> Short Term: Drop them and see what happens.
> 
> long Term: blue up bottom with cobalt blue marker and check against a reference plate.



I have never dropped a plane yet (just chisels) and I don't plan on doing that.

Soles are flat so far. My No.6 is 5 years old ..


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## Devmeister (25 Mar 2022)

I broke a Stanley block plane as kid by dropping it. You can question those on the know for a long time, it does not change things. Sometimes we have to work with grey iron. This is what grey iron can do. I can fix this but I won’t discuss how. To complex for this forum.


I


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## D_W (25 Mar 2022)

The dots on here were from a sheet of results that I got for coupons of O1 and 26c3

Same person did the testing for 1095 for me (63.1 hardness average, 4.3 ft lbs of toughness), I just didn't get individual results, probably because he's busy - so I have the individual samples for the first two and 1095, just the sample averages). 

I have an iron in my number 6 like this. Hard, nice working iron. Just slightly lacking in toughness. I checked larrin's schedule of toughness for hardness - it might improve just a little with another 25-50 degrees of tempering, or it might not make a difference - some steels gain toughness fast, and some don't or even go backwards. 1095 above 60 has only a gradual improvement in charted toughness from where this is tempered to a few points softer. I haven't done it yet. I can make one of these irons in less than an hour from sheet, so I don't have any reason not to look further, I guess. 

They do warp. I vaguely recall people complaining about the flatness of the early WR irons. The answer isn't as simple as making 1095 thicker and grinding it back as a sample thicker than 1/8th will probably be harder on the surface. 





The other thing I'd wonder with the WR irons is if they're fully hardened up to the slot - getting the slot in the quench increases warpage in a way that's not easy to deal with and greatly increase the chance that a crack will occur from the keyhole bottom into the middle of the iron. 

Weird thing about the chart above - 26c3 definitely has the coarsest looking grain due to the excess carbon. Larrin (I think it was larrin) suggested that maybe the lack of a soak resulted in getting less carbon in solution (vs. in carbides) and that usually leads to better toughness. 

My samples were better than his furnace samples 

1095 is harder than his chart and ever so slightly under toughness (but may be where it would be). 

For 1084, I had an outright failure with hardness at 61.6 and toughness at 3.4. I'm sure it's solvable. I do have a separate 1084 iron (our maybe four of them). If they suffer from anything, it's the early ones that I made before getting the right quench oil - they're just a little soft. I probably bungled the coupons by overheating and undertempering them - I don't remember aside from not being as careful with 1095 and 1084. 

The novelty here for me is to find something like 1095 that has a tiny bit of chromium and maybe a small addition of silicon for toughness. Like a 1% version of 26c3. I'm not aware of any such thing being available, but I think something like that would result in a very good high hardness carbon steel plane iron....for people who think the alloying in O1 is too much.


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## D_W (25 Mar 2022)

Bodgers said:


> I have never dropped a plane yet (just chisels) and I don't plan on doing that.
> 
> Soles are flat so far. My No.6 is 5 years old ..



I've dropped a bunch of them.

I know I've broken something off of a casting very early on, but whatever it was, it's long gone (some older smoothing plane that wasn't ductile). I do remember the sound, though "thump....clink clink". 

I also received a LV custom plane to test and accidentally dropped it almost immediately. The handle broke.

I've dropped two of my wooden planes - the handle broke.

And my wife knocked an infill skew shooting plane on the floor the last time she went into my shop and attempted to clean. IT didn't take much damage, but the impact was enough to get some of the dovetails to telegraph (or maybe that was seasonal movement).

I've never broken a handle planing and am generally starting to guess that planes with broken handles are planes that were dropped.

The LV plane didn't suffer anything other than the handle and a small dent. I filed the dent out and straightened the post that was in the handle and ...I guess I bought another handle at the time - can't remember. It did make me think after dropping the plane (not intentionally) that maybe they should have rubber handles.


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## Jameshow (25 Mar 2022)

Devmeister said:


> I broke a Stanley block plane as kid by dropping it. You can question those on the know for a long time, it does not change things. Sometimes we have to work with grey iron. This is what grey iron can do. I can fix this but I won’t discuss how. To complex for this forum.View attachment 132418
> I


Go on tell us how sounds interesting!


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## Tony Zaffuto (25 Mar 2022)

Years ago, I obtained a Sargent autoset smoother. Just a lovely antique! I was cleaning it and it drop out of my hand cracking the sole nearly in half. I went crying to the "Old Tool List" (US email based forum) and one of the members had just the same size sole, and sold it to me for a song. Very pleased, I took delivery of it, and went to cleaning into so as to install the needed pieces to make it whole.....and I dropped it, cracking the replacement.

Sometimes the tool gods just don't want you to have a pristine antique Sargent Autoset smoother, with a cast iron sole.


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## D_W (25 Mar 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Go on tell us how sounds interesting!



JB Weld!!


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## Tony Zaffuto (25 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> JB Weld!!



You forgot I own a powder metal plant along with a complete machine and fab shop!


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## D_W (25 Mar 2022)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> You forgot I own a powder metal plant along with a complete machine and fab shop!



Oh, I was talking about the giant broken casting devmeister had. 

I think you could probably, though, make a new casting for the sargent out of CPM 10V and harden it to 65 

Then it would probably break if it hit the floor again, though.


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## Woody2Shoes (26 Mar 2022)

My LN bronze/brass tools (little spokeshaves and hand beader) are beautiful and functional. So is my Luban/Quansheng 102 block plane from Workshop Heaven - whatever the source of the material might be (you'd think the US military could re-use/recycle their own brass - and lead for that matter!). I'm sure that a good Chinese metallurgist/foundry operative would check the composition - and adjust accordingly - of the mix before pouring...


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## D_W (26 Mar 2022)

For what it's worth, the US military does not re-use/recycle their brass. They sell it. It helps secondary market ammunition be more reasonable cost and selling empty casings helps the military get more money than they would for scrap brass. 

A 260 brass plane would be plenty hard to use - it would just be sticky. The LN bronze plane is more sticky than cast. Mild steel is more sticky than cast (I couldn't say for sure which of those two is more sticky, but the LN bronze is exceptionally durable). I don't know what the small planes LN makes are made of, but I'd have trouble believing that once LN makes them that someone in the east couldn't just copy them and even if they're not technically identical, make them seemingly nice to use. 

It's the intentional stealing of identifying characteristics that bothers me. Thus, at one point WC was sending me things now and then to test in response for feedback and once they went on to the planes, I declined to accept any of the stuff (even though it would be free - at least other than trying something out). I believe so much in personal choice that I can't imagine a case where I tell someone else what they should think or do, though. If someone just loves the WR planes and gets tingles over them, I wouldn't want to get between them and their planes.


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## Devmeister (27 Mar 2022)

I am not a fan of C260. Might as well make it out of copper. In principle I guess you could start with C260 and begin adding stuff to make a different alloy. I just don’t like how it works. I would rather work with stainless and it’s issues.

I too am bothered by clones. But if you want to buy a Leban, knock yourself out.

The police and military are prohibited from using reloaded ammo in the line of duty. It’s seen as a reliability issue.


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## chaoticbob (30 Mar 2022)

It doesn't really matter in the great scheme of things, but for the record C260 (known as cartridge brass on the UK side of the pond) actually has a higher copper content (~70%) than what is called 'common brass' (~62% copper) and has a deeper more 'goldy' colour than common brass. It is single phase (alpha) alloy and is more ductile and malleable than common (alpha/beta mixed phase) brass - which is why it is good for cartridges which are made by forming rather than machining. And less likely to fracture when the bang thing happens. But it's deeper, not lighter in colour than the more machinable alpha/beta alloys.
I'm at a loss to understand why this matters in plane manufacture though. I have old (1950 -60's ) Record planes which cost me ten quid (that's ten nicker, less than half a pony, or ten stout British Pounds to clarify) apiece and they work fine. I also have new cheapos which don't work - but that's because of geometry (mouth and cap iron mostly) and poor cutting irons rather than the body metal. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see how using fancy bronzes for the non-business end parts can improve performance. I do understand the allure of a nicely made shiny tool though! 
Bob.


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## Devmeister (30 Mar 2022)

You have tool users and you have tool makers. Different perspectives.

1). I don’t like working with C260. I tried to go cheap and use it on an A7. OMG It was like peening bubble gum. Wound up throwing it out and replaced the sides with naval brass. Naval brass is the closet I have found to admiralty gun metal.

2). As mentioned, you have functionality and you have looks. My issue with Leban is that they have cloned the branding of Lie Nielsen. They are trading on a market brand that belongs to someone else still in business.

I like Clifton but I don’t like the new ones painted black. The British green they used was characteristic of Clifton. It was a market identifier.

CMT makes orange router bits. No one else is allowed to use orange for router bits as it impringes on a market brand.

Woodcraft made an active decision not to carry a Leban clone block plane because of this. So they have the knuckle cap block plane. Made in the same factory but does not impringe on Lie Nielsen’s brand image.


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## AJB Temple (30 Mar 2022)

And still the drum bangs.


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## Rich C (30 Mar 2022)

I wonder if Luban make grinders, there's some axes in need of it here it seems.


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## D_W (30 Mar 2022)

what this forum really needs...I can tell....is more topic nannies like the last several posts. What's a topic nanny? Someone who flies to a forum that they don't post anything useful in - like a moth to a light bulb, and then provides social commentary, stretching out the very threads they claim to be criticizing. You guys all give each other the thumbs up with great regularity, too. Self-reinforcing nothingness. 

the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them. 

There's a term at the end of closed threads: "This thread has run its course". 

unfortunately, this topical forum appears to have run its course several years ago. I've struggled to engage almost anyone on here who has a clue what they're talking about but it really doesn't happen - bickering about what should or shouldn't be discussed or what people can or can't talk about is what really thrives. 

This forum has run its course. Too bad. Some of the other subforums have people actually doing or making things in them, but this one is toast. Too many people giving opinions about stuff that has nothing to do with hand tools, or giving opinions when they have no clue what they're talking about. Anyone who makes anything of substance is long gone- probably coming (more quietly) to the same conclusion I mentioned here. There's nothing of substance. People supposedly woodworking for decades can't come up with anything more than arguing about whether or not you can or can't be a craftsman if you used lie-nielsen tools. 

I really wish I had a clue how to get people motivated to do, think, share or learn something substantive, but why bother pondering it - I think it ended 10 years ago - there must be a front desk somewhere that you can hand your keys in.


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## Jameshow (30 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> what this forum really needs...I can tell....is more topic nannies like the last several posts. What's a topic nanny? Someone who flies to a forum that they don't post anything useful in - like a moth to a light bulb, and then provides social commentary, stretching out the very threads they claim to be criticizing. You guys all give each other the thumbs up with great regularity, too. Self-reinforcing nothingness.
> 
> the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.
> 
> ...


Agreed, I just like to see things being made what ever the skill level and tools used and a healthy debate about the methods used, that's why I really appreciate the posts of Derek in Oz and Scotty to name just a couple! Many others too but a glass of wine dosent help the memory!!


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## mark w (31 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> what this forum really needs...I can tell....is more topic nannies like the last several posts. What's a topic nanny? Someone who flies to a forum that they don't post anything useful in - like a moth to a light bulb, and then provides social commentary, stretching out the very threads they claim to be criticizing. You guys all give each other the thumbs up with great regularity, too. Self-reinforcing nothingness.
> 
> the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.
> 
> ...





D_W said:


> what this forum really needs...I can tell....is more topic nannies like the last several posts. What's a topic nanny? Someone who flies to a forum that they don't post anything useful in - like a moth to a light bulb, and then provides social commentary, stretching out the very threads they claim to be criticizing. You guys all give each other the thumbs up with great regularity, too. Self-reinforcing nothingness.
> 
> the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.
> 
> ...


If you don't like this forum then leave, simple as that really, personally I think it's still the best forum around at the moment with a vast array of post topics and points of view.


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## Rich C (31 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> This forum has run its course. Too bad. Some of the other subforums have people actually doing or making things in them, but this one is toast. Too many people giving opinions about stuff that has nothing to do with hand tools, or giving opinions when they have no clue what they're talking about. Anyone who makes anything of substance is long gone- probably coming (more quietly) to the same conclusion I mentioned here. There's nothing of substance. People supposedly woodworking for decades can't come up with anything more than arguing about whether or not you can or can't be a craftsman if you used lie-nielsen tools.


Is a post about the perceived quality of the brass used in a plane really what the hand tools subforum needs to revitalise it? If anything it would be more interesting for those in the metalwork subforum? Most hand tool users have little interest in the metallurgy of their tools I would warrant, as long as they hold an edge and do what they are supposed to.


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## AJB Temple (31 Mar 2022)

DW, you seem out to criticise people who disagree with you and the other chap defending LN on a self appointed judgement basis. You have very specific interests and you like to post about them at length. Fine. Your remarks above are judgemental don't you think? Not everyone agrees with you or has any interest in discussing the finer points of metals used to make hand tools. There are active hand tool experts posting build and tool threads on line, and most of them used to be very active here and are now active elsewhere. No site owns the membership and if people don't post content that is to your taste, that is just life.


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## Sgian Dubh (31 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> the hand tool part of this forum has been dull and dying for people of any skill or legitimate experience to participate in, but what really thrives here? A post big enough to bring in people who don't actually post anything, but want to criticize other people having a discussion that doesn't have the right opinions for them.
> 
> unfortunately, this topical forum appears to have run its course several years ago. I've struggled to engage almost anyone on here who has a clue what they're talking about but it really doesn't happen - bickering about what should or shouldn't be discussed or what people can or can't talk about is what really thrives.
> 
> ...


Ooh. I think that's all a bit harsh, David. Perhaps I'm unusual but I, for one, only get involved in threads when it suits me and I can be bothered to do so. There's many a topic pops up that I can answer with what I believe to be some authority through training, qualifications and experience, but don't do so simply because I don't feel the urge to get involved. That's usually because I've other things I prefer to focus on and don't wish to devote effort and time to a thread in which there might be quite a bit of back and forth discussion between myself and others to cover the subject thoroughly. However, I must admit, I've no specialist knowledge of metals, so threads such as this one I find, through dropping in from time to time, informative and interesting. Slainte.


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## D_W (31 Mar 2022)

mark w said:


> If you don't like this forum then leave, simple as that really.



Isn't it pretty clear from above that's what I said I'm doing?


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## Devmeister (1 Apr 2022)

The internet has its pros and cons. There are woodworkers who have years of experience and skills going back to their grandfathers. There are woodworkers just starting out with no support structure.

I personally wish that the internet support resources were there when I was 18! Like all good teenagers I rebelled. What does the old man covered in saw dust really know? I have the woodworking show and all the new gadgets that make the old man obsolete!!!!

That attitude cost me thousands of dollars and hours of frustration. The old man knew his trade and let the young buck learn the hard way.

You can buy anything you want! It’s your money and your time. There are plenty of vendors out there willing to take your money and provide little help or support. After all, if it don’t work, it’s your fault because you don’t know what your doing.

Metalurgy is one of those topics. A materials arms race coupled with too many opinions on how to do it better.

If you want to perfect your trade, find someone to learn from. Check your attitude at the door. Intelligence is learning from your mistakes….Wisdom is learning from other people’s mistakes.

I have made my share of mistakes. I have had my share of success. We can all learn from one another. While my infill work almost rivals Holtey, my issue is learning more about digital forums, video cameras and editing. I am old enough to say the hell with this digital stuff, where is a ten year old when you need one!

One poster provided a link to DW furniture. It was a pleasure watching him work. There is a lot to learn from him.

Often times, the experienced guys , like my grandfather, will not take the rubbish of know it all nannies. They are inclined to shut up and merely watch the young bucks make a mess of it!


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## Devmeister (1 Apr 2022)

Holtey is the gold standard. Comparing oneself with him is quite a statement esp for a humble craftsman.

My metal shop exists to make woodworking tools. I have a monarch 10EE lathe, a hardinge HLV lathe, two Bridgeport’s, a brow sharpe omniversal tool die mill, a gallmeyer surface grinder, a brown sharpe OD/ID cylindrical grinder and a furnace to melt 120 pounds of iron using diesel.

My wood shop contains Oliver and Wadkin machines. My Jointers are a 12 in Northfield heavy and a 20 in Porter.

within the next year I plan on retiring my 1924 pattern large in exchange for a Wadkin RU. My RU is in storage in England and I am struggling to find a container option. Hope to move it and a Wadkin LQ pattern mill this spring.

I am not a self appointed messenger for LN. I am one of the few who can copy a LN down to its precision tomorrow. But I respect what they have done.

If you do woodworking for revenue, are you going to charge your lost time and frustration to a customer? Your time is shot!

If your a hobbyist, how do you justify the time of frustration to your wife? Especially when you have nothing to show for it.

How you approach the problem is up to you. How quickly you can produce top level work is up to you. You can do it but sometimes you need help and wisdom from those who have walked the path before you.


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## Stevekane (1 Apr 2022)

I think it would be a terrible shame if anyone felt they had to leave the forum, maybe people should just take a step back and accept people will have differing views.
PS Im not too keen on the Chinese either!


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## Woody2Shoes (1 Apr 2022)

D_W said:


> Fortunately ,I don't have to convince you. Woodcraft already removed LN-like elements from earlier WR planes to avoid trouble. I don't have to guess that - they told me that. ....


Are you sure that they weren't talking about non-legal "trouble" (by that I mean social media backlash)?


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## Jacob (1 Apr 2022)

Devmeister said:


> I broke a Stanley block plane as kid by dropping it. You can question those on the know for a long time, it does not change things. Sometimes we have to work with grey iron. This is what grey iron can do. I can fix this but I won’t discuss how. To complex for this forum.View attachment 132418
> I


I've seen broken in half Record 5 1/2 and Stanley spokeshave. Both very well repaired by brazing - no prob. 
They were in a skill centre training establishment - woodworkers with trainee welders/brazers also on the premises


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## Devmeister (2 Apr 2022)

Jacob said:


> I've seen broken in half Record 5 1/2 and Stanley spokeshave. Both very well repaired by brazing - no prob.
> They were in a skill centre training establishment - woodworkers with trainee welders/brazers also on the premises


Ah the joys of brazing cast iron…






Who wants to tackle this one? I am not sure what I am going to do here. It’s an issue. If you have ever done brazing you will understand the issues of alignment and warpage. The RU bed moves left and right on a way system by rack and pinion. Not only do I have to braze the cracks but I sure the bed doesn’t bind. Planes will need grinding or lapping. If the alignment is to far out or the warpage to great, your done.

But the positive is all that brass braze makes your plane look like a lie Nielsen sort of


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## mark w (2 Apr 2022)

D_W said:


> Isn't it pretty clear from above that's what I said I'm doing?


Not really, you're replying to my comment which means you're still here. How long does it take to leave?


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## Adam W. (2 Apr 2022)

D_W said:


> Snip/
> or giving opinions when they have no clue what they're talking about.
> /snip


That sums you up Bubba.


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## Jameshow (2 Apr 2022)

mark w said:


> Not really, you're replying to my comment which means you're still here. How long does it take to leave?


Why drive genuine people with massive experience from the forum what good does it do???
Nice one!


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## Tony Zaffuto (2 Apr 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Why drive genuine people with massive experience from the forum what good it do???
> Nice one!



Agree! David is a good guy and very passionate about his interests. His departure will be this forum’s loss.


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## Devmeister (3 Apr 2022)

David had done a great deal in clarifying the details of metalurgy. My own work has relied on using the tried and true, my own observations and experience. I have not had the time to reinvent the wheel. So work by David is surely noted.


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## Devmeister (3 Apr 2022)

I just viewed some material by The Patent Doctor. A US patent and trademark Attorney. It’s a good thing Luban planes are not sold here. Traut and Schade filled patents like mad men. Simple improvements to resolve simple issues were issued patents. So US case law justifies the recognition of the changes LN made by simple filings. And this doesn’t even begin to address branding and trademark issues. It’s a lucky chance that Luban hasn’t been served yet.


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## shed9 (4 Apr 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Why drive genuine people with massive experience from the forum what good does it do???
> Nice one!


Whilst I agree with your comment, D_W is the one who is doing the actual driving here. The term 'massive experience' is subjective here as well. 

D_W's a big boy, he will stay around if he wants and given his usual approach to others, if he does leave it won't be because what others have said or asked of him.


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## mark w (8 Apr 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Why drive genuine people with massive experience from the forum what good does it do???
> Nice one!


A bit over dramatic mate, he said he was fed up with this forum, I said I think it is a good forum and if he didn't like it then why not leave. I haven't driven anyone out, he suggested he was leaving and then replied to my comment, I thought it was quite funny really.


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## Adam W. (8 Apr 2022)

He's probably just stomped off in a virtual huff anyway.


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## Devmeister (9 Apr 2022)

There is a lot stuff I disagree with. There is a lot stuff I said that others disagree with. There is lots we all agree with.

At the end of the day any forum whether this one, a soap box in Piccadilly square or your own House of Commons is a venue for dynamic opinion. That is a good thing.

Make your argument like you mean it! Listen to the other argument. Then make up your mind.


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## Limey Lurker (9 Apr 2022)

Devmeister said:


> Ah the joys of brazing cast iron…
> 
> View attachment 132927
> 
> ...


I remember repairing something very similar in shape and size from a steam engine, using a Castolin/Eutectic stick (on AC, IIRC). The number "680"comes to mind (or, at the moment, is more noticeable among all the utter junk that my mind is churning through!). It was "veed" on one side, back-step welded one pass, the back was "veed", b-s welded one pass: this was repeated for three passes each side over two days. I guaranteed the job 'til they were out of sight.


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## raffo (9 Apr 2022)

Devmeister said:


> Ah the joys of brazing cast iron…
> 
> View attachment 132927
> 
> Who wants to tackle this one? I am not sure what I am going to do here. It’s an issue. If you have ever done brazing you will understand the issues of alignment and warpage. The RU bed moves left and right on a way system by rack and pinion. Not only do I have to braze the cracks but I sure the bed doesn’t bind. Planes will need grinding or lapping. If the alignment is to far out or the warpage to great, your done.



That crack gap is huge. Did you ever fix this? Is something with this kind of damage repairable? Will it crack again? How about bolting bars of steel across the cracks after braising?


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## Devmeister (9 Apr 2022)

raffo said:


> That crack gap is huge. Did you ever fix this? Is something with this kind of damage repairable? Will it crack again? How about bolting bars of steel across the cracks after braising?


Nope! I am in a battle with my ex girlfriend. The bimbo used title theft and common law so I am feeding lawyers and just about earning my law degree. The same bimbo burned 5000 dollars with of CITES pre ban timber collected over thirty years. If a woman does not respect your shop and shop time———RUN!

The good news is I have connections all over the world. There are Four wadkins in storage in England. Only I know where they are. And English law will not require me to cough up the location!

Can it be fixed? Maybe. If not, my Amish buddies will pour a new one. It’s grey iron so they would use class 60 grey iron. It would require me to make a new pattern set but I am cool with that.

it may be able to be brazed or I can use a special rod and technique cited by the other poster. Bottom line is I have options.


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## Limey Lurker (10 Apr 2022)

Devmeister said:


> Nope! I am in a battle with my ex girlfriend. The bimbo used title theft and common law so I am feeding lawyers and just about earning my law degree. The same bimbo burned 5000 dollars with of CITES pre ban timber collected over thirty years. If a woman does not respect your shop and shop time———RUN!
> 
> The good news is I have connections all over the world. There are Four wadkins in storage in England. Only I know where they are. And English law will not require me to cough up the location!
> 
> ...


 
I've never liked brazing on granular iron surfaces: I would prefer to grind a "vee", and then bronze weld.


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## thetyreman (10 Apr 2022)

Devmeister said:


> The same bimbo burned 5000 dollars with of CITES pre ban timber collected over thirty years. If a woman does not respect your shop and shop time———RUN!


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