# New Website - opinions needed



## punkrockdad (24 Jul 2007)

We have just recently built a website to advertise our skills and hopefully bring a little more business in along the lines of the kind of furniture we like to build 

What we need is some feedback and any first opinions to improve the site.

http://www.mark-hopkins.co.uk

Thanks in advance


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## JFC (24 Jul 2007)

You might want to look at that chip out you have on the hinge in the gallery :wink:


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## punkrockdad (24 Jul 2007)

Its all part of the 'aging process' :wink:


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## JFC (24 Jul 2007)

:lol: Looks like a nice classy site . When will it all be up and running ?


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## punkrockdad (24 Jul 2007)

Still working on the text and detailing. 

Inbetween jobs we get 30 minutes to discuss and push a bit further. We've also now installed broadband in the workshop which has REALLY given the old bakerlite rotary phone the hump!

I see you have a website, do you find it brings work in?


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## JFC (24 Jul 2007)

I don't use mine to find work i use it as a gallery for people that contact me . If they see what they like there it saves me time having to ask them what they want . I did have more contact details on there but my first call was from someone in Scotland ( i'm in London) so i decided to use it as an online portfolio .
Regarding your website i would get more pics up in the gallery as i think that is the first place people look . If they like what they see then they will look at the rest of the site .


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## DomValente (24 Jul 2007)

I'm assuming that you've only posted pictures of the desk, 'cos that's all I'm getting.
If so, looking very professional, good luck.

Dom


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## JFC (24 Jul 2007)

One day Dom you might be able to make things like that and stain them the right colour :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## nickson71 (24 Jul 2007)

Nice looking site .........I'll be back to have another look once there's more content


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## mr (24 Jul 2007)

Comments on your website in no particular order. 

It's built entirely in flash - yuk. Not everyone has flash - is there an html option?
My back button has been hi jacked I don't like that. It breaks me out of my comfort zone. Do that too violently or too often and the user will leave the site.
I can't see the point of your first 4 pages other than as a gallery of sorts. Home / Design / Reproductions and Installations pages have no content other than a graphic and an email address. 
Your gallery has three(?) images of the same piece? You need more, the piece in question is so extensively featured through out the site that it makes one wonder whether you have made anything else. The gallery is also hard to see - images too small - and hard to use.
Where are the current projects? It appears to be another blank page featuring a large photgraph but no content. 
Find us page - the map is so small I cant even tell what part of the country your in. 
Cont link (far right hand side) _ I presume it says contact but if so the act part of the word is cut off and again there is no content on that page other than a photograph and the contact details that you have on the other pages. 
I see you have given your web agency a credit on every page. Why? 

In general - my browser controls appear to have been disabled - I cant enlarge the text to make it easier to read. My back and forward buttons don't work.

Having said all that the furniture itself looks rather nice and if I stumbled across the site I would want to see more of your work. I would head straight to the gallery and then if inspired I would bookmark the site. Unfortunately there isnt much to the gallery. 
It's a very glossy site but lacks content and I question the use of flash, particularly in the way it has been done. 
I quite like the typography and the overall brochure design is workable but the web is not a magazine and different techniques apply. 

Cheers Mike


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## DomValente (24 Jul 2007)

Don' t make me say that word :twisted: :twisted:


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## ByronBlack (24 Jul 2007)

You need to ditch the flash navigation - absolute cardinal sin! Can't navigate it properly, it takes an age to load, is not in the slightest bit accessible - really really bad move.

The gallery should have a simple layout with thumbs, get rid of the flash buttons.

Sorry to be harsh, but flash is not designed for making professional websites, a lot of people will have trouble with this site, you can't increase the text for example, there is effectively no content for search engines to index, so in their eye's your website is just spam.

I would suggest taking the design, and work it out properly in a well coded XHTML web page, this will not only help you get in the search engines, but will also allow everyone to read your content, it'll also work faster, and be easier for you to add content and scale it up.

No offense intended, but this is a mistake a lot of amateur's make - using flash for design, it's an animation program and a media delivery system, stick with the proper tools for your website (Xhtml) and you'll benefit from it.

In my experience, most customers couldn't care less about moving swishy things, it's the content and ease of use and speed of the site that is paramount (This is based on years of user-testing and experience).

If you need any further help and some more information let me know, an i'll post some links that will point you in the right direction.


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## Fecn (24 Jul 2007)

The map you have on the Find Us section is a bit hard to read becuase it's been resized with a poor anti-aliasing algorithm.

If you were one of my paying customers, I'd have done something like this for you... (except I wouldn't have used google maps for the source map due to copyright etc)







... and I'd have put the full photoshop verion of the file up somewhere like here...

http://yourhome.org.uk/Mark-Hopkins-Map.psd

... but of course... if you were paying, I'd have done it on my company's website instead of my personal image gallery. (Feel free to use the artwork if it's any use for you... I did it just because you're a forum member and I'm not looking for any payment... mostly because I've already spent all day doing maps for websites and one more won't make much difference to me now.) 

If you're after some criticism....

1. It's all flash - Up to you, but you could think about providing a text alternative for search engines (which won't be able to index your site), the visually impaired (using text-to-speech for reading the web) (or those browsing the site via PDA, mobile phone, locked-down PC.. or just about any of the numerous things which don't support flash)
2. It's teeny - The world has moved past 640x480 screens - When designing for the web it's now more normal to assume everyone has 1024x768 as a minimum.
3. Is ther any point in the Contact Us page - Your contact details are on every page.
4. Your web designer's email address is more prominently featured than your own.
5. I think you have your HTML doctype set incorrectly (or maybe a missing speech mark somewhere ) - The W3C validator moans like hell... and HTML that doesn't validate properly can confuse poor search engines which will then ignore your site.

Anyway.. that's enough of my day job... I came here to escape all this web stuff.


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## Steve Maskery (24 Jul 2007)

Yes, it's an impressive piece, but it's just one. Have you ever made anything else?

Of course you have, you couldn't have reached that standard from a standing start, but there is nothing else to show off to people that you have a broad portfolio. Fine if you want to play the One Note Samba, but if you want to attract custom you need to show some diversity and variety.

Says Steve, who has had one commission in the last 12 months!
Very best wishes, it's tough out there.


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## Chris Knight (24 Jul 2007)

Ditch the flash! Many people hate it and you will want a site you can update with new content yourself at some point. Flash makes it harder for you unless you are a web designer yourself.

Assume you will fall out with your web designer (everyone does eventually) and make sure you have copies of everything and copyright to it. Currently the site is registered in the name of Warren Redmond - not you.


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## punkrockdad (24 Jul 2007)

It's built entirely in flash - yuk. Not everyone has flash - is there an html option?
--- Theres no HTML version, but I take on board your comments and will develop one. I chose Flash as I like the animation and overlay effects.

My back button has been hi jacked I don't like that. It breaks me out of my comfort zone. Do that too violently or too often and the user will leave the site.
--- sometimes I like the new thinking that has to be done to navigate a website. if everything was the same we'd all be called Mr Bill Gates.

I can't see the point of your first 4 pages other than as a gallery of sorts. Home / Design / Reproductions and Installations pages have no content other than a graphic and an email address. 
---- Quite true. We will be inserting more copy and images on these pages. The images are more as a backdrop.

Your gallery has three(?) images of the same piece? You need more, the piece in question is so extensively featured through out the site that it makes one wonder whether you have made anything else. The gallery is also hard to see - images too small - and hard to use.
------- Also very true. I'm tring to implement a zoom feature for the gallery or maybe run it horizontally instead of vertically.

Where are the current projects? It appears to be another blank page featuring a large photgraph but no content. 
------ Good point - again, we will be inserting txt info when we have written (and spell checked it)

Find us page - the map is so small I cant even tell what part of the country your in.
------ We're in North Manchester !! lol I will draw up a stylized map, but for now I've just stuck a screen dump in from googlemaps.

Cont link (far right hand side) _ I presume it says contact but if so the act part of the word is cut off and again there is no content on that page other than a photograph and the contact details that you have on the other pages.
---- I can see all the word contact - can you email me a screen shot? I'm concerned we could possibly be using fonts that arnt embedded. Content wise - its on its way!!

I see you have given your web agency a credit on every page. Why? 
---Because he's such a nice guy (its me

In general - my browser controls appear to have been disabled - I cant enlarge the text to make it easier to read. My back and forward buttons don't work.
---- I totally agree - Accessibility IS an issue in flash. Maybe I should break the TXT out in to HTML frames.

Having said all that the furniture itself looks rather nice and if I stumbled across the site I would want to see more of your work. I would head straight to the gallery and then if inspired I would bookmark the site. Unfortunately there isnt much to the gallery. 
It's a very glossy site but lacks content and I question the use of flash, particularly in the way it has been done. 
---- I havent taken very many photos of our furniture just yet and only photographed enough to build a structure on the site.

I quite like the typography and the overall brochure design is workable but the web is not a magazine and different techniques apply. 

------- Excellent critique Mike - thanks for the input. I shall make notes and address them. Hopefully you will see an improvement over the next few weeks.


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## mr (24 Jul 2007)

Screenshot sent.
Cheers Mike


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## ByronBlack (24 Jul 2007)

a small tip:

Dont try and re-invent the wheel with regards accessiblity and navigation, its been done to death over the past 15 years and there are clear and succesful techniques which use proper Markup.

You've been given excellent advice (mostyl ditch the flash) if you wish to be succesful, I would very much urge you to listen to that advice because as it stands your website is failing on way too many area's to be sucesful.

Have you had any user-testing on your website? Have you tested it against numerous platforms, such as PDA's Mobiles, Laptops, Tablets, Mac, etc.. these all make up a good propertion of your audience.

How do you intend to use search engines? Text in flash is not recognised by outside indexing tools so your site will appear blank.

Why should peoples current navigation tools be disabled? (back button, forward, reload etc..)?

How does someone with low vision look at your website when the text size is locked into your flash movie?

What do people on low speed connections do while they are waiting over a minute for your pre-loader to work?

This is not a dig at you, but you really need to look at these issues. Clearly you woodworking is excellent, and it's only fitting that you're websites covey's that same quality.

As an aside, over half of my work was repairing and rebuilding flash based websites for commercial companies who made the mistake of entirely building their site in flash - usually from college kids. 

If you don't have the time/expertise to build your design in proper markup, then there are companies who'll turn a photoshop mockup into a a fully accesible and validated XHTML site for very little money - this will then give you a massive headstart and will allow you to easily update the website.


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## Bodrighy (24 Jul 2007)

I live in an area where I can't get broadband and I am still waiting for it to load....it has been 6 minutes so far. There is always an HTML option in fact if you look at most proffessionally made sites nowadays you will find that flash is used very little as it tends to hog bandwidth too much.

The golden rule when building a web site is to keep it simple, keep images small with links to bigger ones if you wish and make sure that the whole page can load within 10 seconds or people will switch off. Also remember that only just over 50% of Internet users have up to date equipment including browsers so never build a site that can only be viewed on the latest version. 

As others have said there seems to be only one example of your work. You would be better having as many different examples as possible. I clicked on Gallery and saw the same thing as on all the other pages. 

Sorry if this is all negative but one of the things I teach is web design and am continually trying to drum the KISS principle into my students (KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid) :lol: 

Stop and ask yourself what you would be looking for if you were going on a site like this.

Pete

P.S. I am not calling you stupid by the way, it's a common saying in Somerset....

EDIT

If this is going to be a commercial site you will need to make sure that it complies with the WAI You can check your site out here

The Melbourne Olympic site designers got sued a fortune because it wasn't accessible enough.

Pete


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## Dave S (24 Jul 2007)

Some very good comments have been made already which I would also endorse. Two of your comments jump out at me:


punkrockdad":7f1qjl74 said:


> I chose Flash as I like the animation and overlay effects.


This is a common mistake. Who is the website for? Certainly not you - it's for customers or _potential_ customers. Generally animation and overlay effects don't go down too well. Personally I felt a bit sick looking at all those pics sliding about all over the place.



punkrockdad":7f1qjl74 said:


> --- sometimes I like the new thinking that has to be done to navigate a website. if everything was the same we'd all be called Mr Bill Gates.


There are, however, conventions which have developed. Naviagation is a prime example of this - people have certain expectations as to how a site functions and will soon move on from a site which breaks these conventions too radically.

Research shows that most people will give up on a site if it takes longer than about 8 seconds to load. Yours took longer and you have only one item in your gallery so far.

Mike is correct - different techniques do apply on the web. However, I think it's worth considering what people would do if they were looking at the real thing. You obviously make high quality furniture. Were that desk in a gallery, I think people would look at it from all angles, open the drawers, feel the surfaces (wood is so tactile). I think the ony way you can emulate that experience is with high quality photographs that are clearly displayed. Currently it's all a bit of a clutter and the website really doesn't do your work justice.

All that said, I know it's not easy. I'm in the rather strange position of being an application developer as a day job , but also about to commission a website for a new company I have set up with my wife. That website will be selling _quality_ products (not woodwork related) so the challenge of showcasing quality on the web is one I have recent experience of.

I hope these comments help - certainly I'd be happy to bounce ideas around further.

Dave


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## TrimTheKing (25 Jul 2007)

Just one thing to add to everyone else's comments. I use Firefox and not IE, and I get no response when clicking on the up/down buttons on your gallery page (I have checked using IE just to see what response I should get and definitely doesn't do anything in Firefox).

It may be that I don't have a specific plug in, but I have checked and I don't appear to be missing anything, other than a few marbles...

Cheers

Mark


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## Anonymous (25 Jul 2007)

Too slow download and I've got broadband. So haven't been able to look at it, a complete fall at the first fence, 0 out of 10. Hopeless.
Flash really gets in the way as everybody else seems to be saying. Otherwise may well be excellent for all I know.

cheers
Jacob
PS it finally turned up. Lot of the text hard to read cos too small and you can't adjust it. Grey opening screen and black background don't help.
Furniture looks interesting though.


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## RogerS (25 Jul 2007)

I concur with what everyone else has said. 

Any website that hijacks my browser buttons doesn't get revisited nor does it get any business.

I find the transitions between buttons nauseous.

Very nice desk though....one day maybe I can make something as good?


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## wizer (25 Jul 2007)

I'm afraid I agree. The site doesn't work properly in Firefox and Flash is just awful in almost all applications.


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## White House Workshop (25 Jul 2007)

WiZeR":2aswxckc said:


> I'm afraid I agree. The site doesn't work properly in Firefox and Flash is just awful in almost all applications.



I'm another one in total agreement. Has anyone tried it using Safari? Even with my 8MB broadband downlink it took too long to load and I REALLY object to sites that hijack my browser buttons :evil: Nice picture though!

You can have animations without using a 100% Flash site - pop-ups and roll-overs, animated gif's etc. I'm not a fan of pop-ups (they're blocked on my Firefox browser unless I allow them), but mouse rollovers work very well and I designed some simple ones for my wife's website.


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## Bodrighy (25 Jul 2007)

I don't know whether you are using something like Dreamweaver to build your site but if you are most of the animations mentioned by WHW can be found in there. You can still use Flash and your idea of using a zoom feature is good but if you do you need to have it as an option that you link to not as part of the main site allowing the average browser to navigate the main site easily and the more interested to go and look at detail. 

I use Opera and it all works OK for me, just really slowly. Using HTTP and javascript would give you plenty of scope for fancy design without bogging it down so much.


If it ends up looking half as good as your woodwork you'll be on a winner. 
Pete


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## punkrockdad (26 Jul 2007)

So flash is out of the window by an overwhelming majority it seems...

I have tried to address all the comments here and have produced an updated version using html and CSS.

Please be gentle on the content side as it needs more tuning. But this is just to check the mechanics of the site - ie navigation, legibility and accessibility.

Again, thanks for all your comments and I look forward to this evenings critique... 
 

http://www.mark-hopkins.co.uk


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## mr (26 Jul 2007)

My instant feeling as soon as the page loads (which was fast) without having read a word or clicked a link is "WOW" Thats a huge improvment. First impressions as I say without looking closely at all is that it's bright clean fresh & inviting. Now Ill have a closer look and report back 
(ps I presume you got that screenshot I sent you?) 

EDIT 
Im back
Apart from the content all being the same and none of the menu items or side bar links actually working. Id say thats a nice looking site. 
Your markup however is not valid XHTML 1.0 transitional as claimed by your doctype if thats important to you, but if it is then it wouldn't be difficult to fix. Your server seems a little slow, pages a bit slow to load - that might be my connection at the moment.
I like the google maps page as well. Nice site (vast improvement) Good looking gallery, I look forward to seeing the finished site with all your final content.

Another Edit
The typography of the heading doesn't work too well for me. I would open up the line spacing a wee bit. 

And another edit
That's a stunning desk by the way. Even more so now I can see it clearly. 

And yet another edit.
Why not just open the google maps lightbox graphic from the "find us" menu item rather than opening a new page with a click here link on? Why waste the clicks? 

Cheers Mike


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## Steve Maskery (26 Jul 2007)

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 
Much, much better.


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## wizer (26 Jul 2007)

wow I didnt see that coming. Superb. A Million times better


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2007)

Lots better. Could do with a margin left and right. This on mac with safari.
Links don't work but I guess this is work in progress.
Hope it brings in the punters 

cheers
Jacob


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## ByronBlack (26 Jul 2007)

Much much better - glad you took all the advice that was given!

I feel that the navigation links need a bit of whitespace between them and the top-image, they feel a litte cramped, about 10-15px should do it.

Typography is clean, as jacob says, maybe a teeny bit extra on the margins.

These are two very minor things however, you've done well. Will be looking forward to seeing the content and pics of your work!


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## Paul Chapman (26 Jul 2007)

Much better :wink: Just one small point which grates with me - under "Latest News" you have "Corian Bathroom Vanity Sink". Sinks go in kitchens, bathrooms have basins.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2007)

Paul Chapman":1uaved3s said:


> Much better :wink: Just one small point which grates with me - under "Latest News" you have "Corian Bathroom Vanity Sink". Sinks go in kitchens, bathrooms have basins.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul


Oooh didn't know that. :shock: What about buckets then? Permitted in barth rooms?

cheers
Jacob


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## Dave S (26 Jul 2007)

Vast improvement.  

Personally I'm not keen on the lightbox script you've used for the images but that's probably just me. The whole site is much cleaner and fresher and allows your work to do the talking. Looking forward to seeing it completed 

Dave


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## Paul Chapman (26 Jul 2007)

Mr_Grimsdale":2b0q6l4m said:


> What about buckets then? Permitted in barth rooms?



Only when the roof is leaking :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## punkrockdad (26 Jul 2007)

Thanks for the words of encouragement. 

I've adjusted the leading on the Main title - just a bit of CSS tweaking.

I changed the 'sink' to 'basin' and we also have a few buckets in the timber store :? 

Its a lightroom derivative called 'thickbox' - I'm quite pleased with the effect as it means I can get some high resolution detail shots in there without having to preload or sneaky load as I did in flash.

Do you have any other suggestions for the gallery - i'd be interested in any alternatives.

Not sure what you mean about the 'margins' though??? can you be a little more descriptive?

More tweaking on the content now. Text wise and structured photos. I'm interested in some 'HowTo' galleries. We'll probably do that with the Art Deco piece. 

Not sure about the validation of XHTML tho. Any tips? It would be good to account for a standard and make a point of it on the website. Especially the accessible aspects.

Again, thanks for the constructive criticism. Its been a pleasure.

Right, now I've got to write my best mans speech for tomorrow...

anybody got any ideas? :lol:


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## ByronBlack (26 Jul 2007)

avoid any fat mother-in-law jokes and you'll be ok!


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## Paul Chapman (27 Jul 2007)

punkrockdad":2at09tss said:


> Right, now I've got to write my best mans speech for tomorrow...
> 
> anybody got any ideas? :lol:



Keep it short; speak up; and before you stand up make sure your fly is done up :lol: Good luck :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## wizer (27 Jul 2007)

this one always goes down well:

What's the difference between Inlaws and Outlaws..... Outlaws are wanted

Boom Boom


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## Sgian Dubh (27 Jul 2007)

punkrockdad":1b8t8k4b said:


> Thanks for the words of encouragement.



Much better than the sliding thing. There are some oddball things happen when I click on a small image to open up the larger images. The screen that opens is mostly up above the top of my monitor. I can only see I'd guess the bottom third, and I can't move it. I'm using IE 7.

There are quite a few grammatical and spelling errors that I find irritating. Proof reading would be a good idea. Ideally your proof reader is not you, and the person that does it works off a printed page. It's almost impossible to proof read off a monitor. I suppose it's self evident that your proof reader is, ideally, good to excellent at english. Slainte.


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## Benchwayze (27 Jul 2007)

I found the site a bit hard on the eye in some respects. The gallery wasn't what I expected and I felt I was being bounced around. 

On a woodworking note:

Couldn't you find a lock of such a size that the keyhole surround wouldn't have interfered with the inlay on the glazed door? 

I know brassware is difficult these days and sometimes it means designing to accomodate it. It is one of the ughhh factors of repro and restoration work, but it's a fact of life. 

Best of Luck
John


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## Benchwayze (27 Jul 2007)

punkrockdad":1gznmm32 said:


> Right, now I've got to write my best mans speech for tomorrow...
> 
> anybody got any ideas? :lol:



You must know the groom well enough, so my advice is to just wing it. 

If you have to write anything at all, just write large headings on a sheet of paper. Instead of holding the paper to read from, leave the paper on the table. Use the headings as reminders. All it takes is a glance down and you're away. 

Oh and take Paul's advice about your fly and you'll be fine. 

Best of luck again. 
John


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## Fecn (27 Jul 2007)

Ooh.. that's a big improvement.. but here's a few more ideas...

1. Having a Latest News section of a website is often a very very bad idea... People update their site news for about the first 2 months after a site goes live and never again after that - Visitors to the site find that all the latest news is old and figure that you just don't care - It's often better not to have a 'news' section, and put any news on the homepage instead.

2. I expect you're already on the case with this, but you could do with combining your name with the top decorator so you can create some kind of branding for yourself/company. Since you're mid-way through making this site, I'll assume you're sorting out that kind of thing (and matching business cards etc)

3. Your HTML code still fails the basic HTML validation, and that means that search engines won't be able to read it as well as they should - The Web Design Group has a free site validator at http://htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/ - It's a bit strict at times (it picks up on bad capitalisation in parameter names etc), but it's worth fixing the things it finds since it means your site will really and truly work everywhere. (Most of the stuff it's complaining about currently is failure to properly close singleton tags (you're doing <br> and never following it with a close tag... to close a singleton tag, you finsihing with /> rather than just > .. same for img and meta tags)

4. You have a 'learn more' link at the bottom of each page which goes to a non-existant page.

That's all I've spotted this time.. I'm off to read something else


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## Bodrighy (27 Jul 2007)

That is so much better. Even on my gas fired connection it loaded almost immediately and the links that are set up worked well. Make sure that you put an alternate text in for your images. People who use screen readers can't tell what the images are otherwise. (picky I know but I teach a lot of visually impaired students and it is the bain of their life that so many web designers assume that they don't want to know what a pictue is.)

I am sure that you will never be satisfied, if your woodwork is anything to go by you are a perfectionist, but it is really looking good now

Pete


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