# Under Development - Garnham style dropout boxes



## DavidE (5 Jan 2010)

Hi all,

I'm sure many will be familiar with the "cyclone substitute" shown by Mike G. recently. I thought it was a rather good idea and started setting about making one on Sunday afternoon from various scraps lying around.

I decided to put a clear front on the top part of the "works" so I could gauge how effective it was and try to optimise it - in particular the baffle plates. I'm still working on this and will be attempting a few calcs this evening to try to review the design further. When I get the internals sorted I'll post a drawing with dimensions. 

Anyway at the first pass I reckon it is about 98% efficient and is only letting the very fine dust pass. Hence the challenge to try to improve it further. The inlet gets a good swirling vortex going and with the increase in flow area this is where most of the dust drops out down the slide into the bin area.

These photos attempt to show the story so far. You'll notice some of the bits of wood round the baffles really are scrap bits and are not finalised yet!







Overall view





The gubbins





With the door off showing the bin - note the draught sealing strip and the slot at the bottom which the door sits in. The latch holds it quite tight and the extractor does the rest. When the baffles are sorted I will add some roofing underlay fabric or similar to guide the dust into the bin more.





Looking up from the base.





Inlet area.

If you do make one make sure you anticipate sealing all the joins. I got through a few hot glue sticks to get it air tight. I'm going to paint it too as I think one of the OSB boards is slightly porus (it spent some time as a temporary floor and got a bit damp)

Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. 

I wouldn't hesistate to recommend making one - this was virtually zero cost and took a few hours to make - then I have been tweaking around trying to get that extra few percent. I've got quite a few ideas some I've tried and others are yet to be tried or are not needed. I did have an offcut of 4" soil pipe in the middle at one stage which was doing some interesting things and may be worthwhile pursuing further.

Cheers
David

PS thanks Mike!


----------



## Sportique (5 Jan 2010)

David,

fascinating - will watch with interest. Good luck

Dave


----------



## MikeG. (5 Jan 2010)

Excellent stuff David! Well done. It shows what can be done with some scrap and a couple of hours of work.......and a bit of playing about. Your clear panel is a great design idea, enabling you to see how any tweaks work-out in practice. 

The key thing, folks, is that these don't have to follow a set pattern. Make them whatever size and shape you want. That looks a really serious vacuum, which I guess might mean that a little more dust gets through the system into the vacuum than is the case with mine.

I happen to know that there are one or two others under construction around this little forum.........so come on guys............show us the photos!!!

Mike


----------



## studders (5 Jan 2010)

I built a small one as an experiment. I did get a noticeable loss of suction but that was with a 4 meter hose so I might try a shorter one.
Have to say though that very little sawdust got as far as the vacuum so, quite impressed and will keep on with a MK2 version (when it warms up a tad).


----------



## mickthetree (5 Jan 2010)

Would it be possible to add some sort of fine filter at the end? Catch the last fine bits before they go off to the Hoover?

Something standard like a dyson hepa filter? 


Or would this reduce flow too much?


----------



## miles_hot (5 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":3iqnsa6d said:


> . That looks a really serious vacuum, which I guess might mean that a little more dust gets through the system into the vacuum than is the case with mine.
> 
> Mike



Mike

Does that mean we need to make the box significantly bigger in section if the suction device is much stronger (say 3hp)?

Miles


----------



## DavidE (5 Jan 2010)

Thanks for the comments so far.

Regarding filters - the trick is to try avoiding them as there is already one on the extractor. Making this will cause some loss of "woof", however, if it keeps the filters clearer longer the average "woof" will be much higher generally.



> Mike
> 
> Does that mean we need to make the box significantly bigger in section if the suction device is much stronger (say 3hp)?
> 
> Miles



Miles - the trick is to drop velocity down - > Which means increasing the flow area. So for my extractor the spec is a flow of 53 litres/second (it probably won't achieve this in reality). In the 4" pipe the flow speed is 6.7m/s. Then when it lands in the wide expanse of this box it reduces to 0.28m/s (approx figures with some assumptions in).

The baffles and stuff are a bit of a black art to try to get some throttling/turbulence/flow stagnation to get the stuff to drop out of the flow.

Cheers
David


----------



## MikeG. (5 Jan 2010)

miles_hot":2pjf3cbw said:


> Mike Garnham":2pjf3cbw said:
> 
> 
> > . That looks a really serious vacuum, which I guess might mean that a little more dust gets through the system into the vacuum than is the case with mine.
> ...



I do this all by intuition, Miles, so I don't know, really..........but I reckon that a big suction would require a bigger box, and/ or more baffles. If I move shortly, as planned, I'll be building a new workshop and will have an external "drop-box" with a serious suction device.........so we'll find out then!

Mike


----------



## miles_hot (6 Jan 2010)

DavidE":1joxwbij said:


> Thanks for the comments so far.
> 
> Regarding filters - the trick is to try avoiding them as there is already one on the extractor. Making this will cause some loss of "woof", however, if it keeps the filters clearer longer the average "woof" will be much higher generally.
> 
> ...



David

What are the calculations you're using? I ask as the 3-5hp motor that I am planning will hopefully generate around 800-1000 cfm which I think comes to around 470l/s in a 6" pipe (at the entry to the box)...

Miles


----------



## woodbloke (6 Jan 2010)

I'm building a 'Garnham Special' at the moment as well, specifically to extract off the table saw. The orientation of mine is vertical as opposed to Mikes original horizontal version (if that makes sense) so I'm inserting an extra baffle to increase the air travel length.
Good tip also about making sure it's well sealed...will have to sort out some silicone for the interior. I've already got some self adhesive strip sealant so my next job is to start the door and catches.

The thing that's holding me up at the moment is that I need an odd length of 63mm tubing...I wonder if anyone's got anything gash lying about unused that they'd care to part with for a coupla beer vouchers? - Rob


----------



## MikeG. (6 Jan 2010)

Rob,

rainwater downpipes are 63mm dia., if that is of any use to you.

Mike


----------



## woodbloke (6 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":3n1xlx94 said:


> Rob,
> 
> rainwater downpipes are 63mm dia., if that is of any use to you.
> 
> Mike


Mike, I've got a bit of that but it's too big to fit the vac etc. What I need is an oddment of bendy pipe to run from the vac to the box and the saw to the box. The vac I'm using is the Axminster W1000 (no longer made unfortunately) which gives a goodly amount of suck but uses this larger size hose
Edit - thinking about it, the bit of rainwater pipe I've got is bigger than 63mm and I'm fairly sure there's a smaller size available, which would probably do the job..will have to do some investigating - Rob


----------



## Sportique (6 Jan 2010)

Rob

check out your local vacuum cleaner repair shop - they sometimes have second-hand flexible hoses and/or plastic connectors etc - for a donation to their beer money? 

But may not be big enough diameter for your needs.

Dave


----------



## OPJ (6 Jan 2010)

Rob, could you not try making a saw cut (handsaw!) down the length of your pipe and then fold it in on itself, to reduce the outer diameter?


----------



## Jamesc (6 Jan 2010)

Another method worth a go is heating the pipe up with a hot air gun until it becomes pliable and moulding it to shape. I've had great success reducing the size by starting in the middle of a pipe and heating a reasonably long section - say 6" and then pulling the ends apart. this gives a nice progressive taper. 

James


----------



## woodbloke (6 Jan 2010)

Jamesc":y772jehs said:


> Another method worth a go is heating the pipe up with a hot air gun until it becomes pliable and moulding it to shape. I've had great success reducing the size by starting in the middle of a pipe and heating a reasonably long section - say 6" and then pulling the ends apart. this gives a nice progressive taper.
> 
> James


That sounds an interesting technique which sounds worthy of bit of experimenting :wink: - Rob


----------



## DavidE (6 Jan 2010)

miles_hot":qfovo4tp said:


> David
> 
> What are the calculations you're using? I ask as the 3-5hp motor that I am planning will hopefully generate around 800-1000 cfm which I think comes to around 470l/s in a 6" pipe (at the entry to the box)...
> 
> Miles



Hi Miles,

The calculations are based on continuity so if you know the flow rate over a given area as stuff can't enter or disappear you can assume that the flow rate remains the same. Now in real life there will be pressure drops and turbulence which means the figures are only a guide... so starting with a bit of dimensional analysis -

We want flow speed in metres/second, we know the area which is m² and we know the flow rate in litres/second which you can convert to m³/s. For your example then...

The flow rate (Q) in m³/s is 0.47 (1000l = 1m³)
The area (A) will be (in m²) Pi x r² = Pi x .075² = 0.01767

We want m/s so if you divide Q/A you get m/s

=> = .47/0.01767 = 26.6m/s (Which is about 60mph!)

One thing to remember is the type of extractor as the performance will drop off with any restrictions etc thus slowing the flow down. All these calculations don't take into account the amount of dust being dragged along either. 

I think the key point really is if you calculate comparative areas you'll get an indication of the change in velocity... so if you increase the area by a factor of 10 the flow speed will have to reduce by that value (as the relationship is linear) subject to all the other non ideal bits mentioned.

I hope this helps :? 

David


----------



## DavidE (6 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":23le49yk said:


> I'm building a 'Garnham Special' at the moment as well, specifically to extract off the table saw. The orientation of mine is vertical as opposed to Mikes original horizontal version (if that makes sense) so I'm inserting an extra baffle to increase the air travel length.
> Good tip also about making sure it's well sealed...will have to sort out some silicone for the interior. I've already got some self adhesive strip sealant so my next job is to start the door and catches.



Rob - the whole vertical thing is interesting, and has got me thinking a bit!

I'd have used silicone on mine, however, it's that cold at the moment I was lucky to get the hot glue on before it set :wink:

There will be a MkII as I have tools spread out over two buildings and if it's warmer then I'll probably silicone it. To say the faces were a good fit and cut with the Festool or Table Saw the loss of suction without sealing was very impressive!

I was wondering about all sorts for the catches - in the end the simple tapered strip at the base and the Oak Sneck have worked wonders. As Mike said in his original post the extractor finishes the job off!

David


----------



## SimonB (17 Jan 2010)

This is my first post in the 'on-topic' section, I've come to woodworking only recently, now having the space, more time and (a little) money. I've been knocking bits of wood together for various sorts of garden use, but not yet really made anything. 

I want to make a couple of timber frames for a cutting bench and work bench. There is a fair amount of rough sawn timber around left by the previous owner of the house, so thought I'd use that. Lacking the skill, knowledge and, to be honest, patience, to learn how to use hand planes, I bought a planer and separate thicknesser. Unfortunately my current Bosch Vac doesn't have a wide enough tube to cope with the output of either and fills far too quickly. So seeing Mike's invention I thought I'd have a crack at it.

I don't really have any scrap (yet) so went out and bought some 18mm ply cut, apparently, to size. First mistake, I hadn't realised quite how heavy this would make the box, so was a bit of a struggle putting it together. Secondly the cuts weren't quite to dimension and ended up bodging a lot of the joins. Having recently bought a set of EurekaZone guide rails (yes, I have all the tools and no idead) I took it all apart and resized all the panels to be square.

It's a blatant rip-off of Mike's design and seems to work quite well. There appears to be a slight loss of suction and all I've used it for so far is to vacuum the garage floor  but it does look like the majority of the large debris at least is dropping.

I need to finish off the collection tubing for the CS and the battery of the Dremel is flat so whilst I'm waiting for that to charge I thought I'd post some photos.






I didn't have a drill bit the right size for the dowel so used a hole cutter (not sure of the name) and it's too big, hence the screwdriver as a wedge. I need to get some larger dowel to fit.






And the insides..






It needs a small tweak to the bottom ledge as the door is currently too tight. Once I start using some tools in anger I'll get a better idea as to how effective it is. I'd like to put a perspex front on, I think it would be interesting to watch it in action. Also I plan to make a draw/bin to make emptying a little easier.

Thanks for looking, any comments appreciated.


----------



## SimonB (17 Jan 2010)

Not sure why the photos aren't displaying - any tips? Thanks


----------



## lemonjeff (17 Jan 2010)

Here you go Si,
The links you posted are direct links to the page.

















You need to go into "share" where the IMG links are, I think (i use photobucket).

Jeff


----------



## SimonB (17 Jan 2010)

Many thanks Jeff - I'll have to figure out why the link Picasa gives doesn't work with the Img tags.


----------



## MikeG. (17 Jan 2010)

Simon,

the drop in "suck" that you are finding can be attributed, I reckon, to the different size of tubes you have. If you replaced the one that collects the dust with one of the same calibre as the one that leads to the vaccum cleaner, I don't think you will find any significant drop in "suckage".

Nice looking construction, BTW.....much too robust and high-quality for the job it does!!!

Mike


----------



## SimonB (17 Jan 2010)

Thanks for the suggestion Mike, I think you're probably right. Presumably the flow in the 'in' tube is a fraction of that in the 'out' (to Vac) tube and is directly related to cross section size of each tube. The reason for a larger 'in' tube is that the smaller Vac tube was getting blocked when using with the planer or thicknesser. The clear tube is a match for the thicknesser dust port and with various adapters I also have a connectors for the planer and the CS. For the CS the pipe narrows to a similar size to that of the Vac and from using it just now it seems to be as effective. Also no dust is making it into the Vac which is pleasing. Once I finally get the workshop sorted out and move out of the garage I might consider upgrading to a more powerful suction system.


----------



## Chris_belgium (17 Jan 2010)

Hello, I'm also looking to make this kind of dust extraction system, do have a couple of questions, if this is regarded as thread highjacking, let me know, i'll delete my post and start a seperate thread. I'm thinking, this way we keep all the info together.

Anyway on to my questions , am I correct that the air flow goes like this?




How does the air pass the last baffle (small one on top just before the exit towards the vacuum), are there small holes drilled in it, or am I missing something?

I'm planning on using this motor.




Originally this was used with two cloth bags attached to the black piece, one on top, one on the bottom. I'm planning on removing the black pieces, then connect the suction side to the 'Garnham' box, and route the exhaust side outside my workshop in open air. My two question is, first off all will this work? 
Second question is, how much dust get's past the box, I live in the country so a bit of blowby isn't a big problem, but offcourse don't want piles of mdf dust flying into the cows faces who graze next to my workshop


----------



## MikeG. (17 Jan 2010)

SimonB":3vsuoo3p said:


> Also no dust is making it into the Vac which is pleasing.



That is good news.....as that is the whole point of the excercise. If none gets to the vac, then none goes into the air.

Mike


----------



## MikeG. (17 Jan 2010)

Chris,

yes....that is the right route through the box....and yes, there are small holes drilled in that last baffle.

Yes......it will work with your extractor. keep the extractor set up as originally intended (with 2 bags), and have the drop box between the dust and the extractor. However.........

You will have to make a substantially larger box, and you may have to experiment with baffle positions etc, simply because your extractor is so much more powerful. I made both of mine empirically........by intuition........so I have no idea if there is a way of calculating the sizes of the various elements. With an extractor like yours that appears to run on 100mm pipework, you may need to make a box up to about 8 or 9 times the size of my original, otherwise the suction will be so great that it will simply empty the box.

I am planning to do just exactly what you have in mind when I build my next workshop, and I am thinking that a box of about 800x800 by 1500 would be the starting point. I have no maths to back that up, but the bigger the better. There is no reason why this need to be inside the workshop, of course..........you could easily make the box weatherproof and fixed to the outside of the shed.

Mike


----------



## DavidE (17 Jan 2010)

Chris_belgium":g6krywn5 said:


> Hello, I'm also looking to make this kind of dust extraction system, do have a couple of questions, if this is regarded as thread highjacking, let me know, i'll delete my post and start a seperate thread. I'm thinking, this way we keep all the info together.



Hey Chris - I think it is good if everyone posts here - that way it will be easier to look at all the different designs. If it makes sense I could change the thread title so it is more obvious there are multiple ones?

Simon - yours looks good. Mike is right the wider hose will mean the speed at the outlet is less. In theory you'll get the same volumetric flow rate (minus the losses)

Mike - have you got any idea what the flow rate of your vac is (or just have a look at the motor power rating as it can probably be compared to similar vacs?) That way if you post your dimensions it should be possible to see what the basic flow numbers are. (If you could estimate the baffle areas (closed to open) and pipe sizes that would be good too. When I made mine I worked on the theory that at the baffle plates I should keep the same area as the hose to minimise the losses as the baffle is effectively a throttle. However, this may not be the best approach... I need to try some more stuff out.

I've been away this week so I've not had a chance to try some stuff out. The box definitely needs to scale up with the higher flow rate. Hopefully, then a bit of fun with the baffles to create stagnation in the flow (and gravity) does the rest. As I have only got really fine stuff getting through now the challenge is giving them enough time to settle in the flow. The big stuff falls out that easily I suspect if you took two pipes in and out of a box (at the top) it would be pretty effective.

Cheers
David


----------



## Chris_belgium (17 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":xwhfbb7f said:


> Chris,
> 
> yes....that is the right route through the box....and yes, there are small holes drilled in that last baffle.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply, what is the reason that I should keep the setup with the bags, I'd rather remove them as they take up quite a bit of space. Without the bags I could put the extractor motor in some 'lost' space in my workshop and use drainage pipes to connect it to the box, if I have to use the bags, this would take up valuable space in an already very crowded workshop.


----------



## woodbloke (17 Jan 2010)

I'm making some sort of progress with mine and hope to sort out hoses shortly. Interesting that Mike recommends that both hoses be the same diameter (or as near as damn)...obvious really.

I wonder if it's worth making a 'sticky' for this thread, or even start a new one as a 'sticky' with different designs? - Rob


----------



## MikeG. (18 Jan 2010)

Chris_belgium":2ffmtkls said:


> what is the reason that I should keep the setup with the bags,



.......the only reason is that I didn't read your original posting correctly! Yep, should work fine without, so long as you are prepared to experiment a bit. One suggestion is to have some sort of vision-panel in the door of your drop box so that you can watch how the dust swirls around, and see what differences any changes make.



> Interesting that Mike recommends that both hoses be the same diameter (or as near as damn)...obvious really.



Rob,

not necessarily! In the circumstances where you have a small vauum cleaner working at its limits and you don't want any drop in suckage (I love invented words!!), then yes, it makes sense to stick to the same size hose. You could even have a smaller hose from the dust to the box than you have from the cleaner to the box, and that should concentrate the airflow.

However, if you have bags of power, say from one of the big extractors such as Chris is talking about, or from something like a big old wet 'n dry vacuum cleaner, then there could be lots to gain going from a small outlet hose to a bigger inlet hose. You could effectivley be converting from  HVLP to LVHP. Turn this to your advantage by having a valve somewhere, and being able to swap from HVLP to LVHP at will.

Mike


----------



## MikeG. (18 Jan 2010)

DavidE":2kg3fa8n said:


> Mike - have you got any idea what the flow rate of your vac is (or just have a look at the motor power rating as it can probably be compared to similar vacs?) That way if you post your dimensions it should be possible to see what the basic flow numbers are. (If you could estimate the baffle areas (closed to open) and pipe sizes that would be good too.
> David



David,

the box internal dimensions are c. 700w x 450h x 250d, and the hoses in and out are 35mm diam. The cleaner has 2 power ratings........800W IEC, and 900W with some writing after it that is worn out and illegible, but it doesn't say anything about volumetric flow rate.

The lower baffle has 50 no. 6.5mm holes, and the upper one has 25 of the same.

The cross sectional area of the hose is therefore in the region of 960 sq.mm, and the open areas of the baffles are c. 1660 sq.mm for the bottom one and 830 sq.mm for the top one.

Mike


----------



## CNC Paul (18 Jan 2010)

Not really a drop box but coming soon for the Festoolians


----------



## RogerM (18 Jan 2010)

SimonB":1399a44x said:


> Many thanks Jeff - I'll have to figure out why the link Picasa gives doesn't work with the Img tags.





SimonB":1399a44x said:


> Not sure why the photos aren't displaying - any tips? Thanks



Simon - you're pasting the link rather than the "embed image" function. To post from Picasa :-

1. On the RHS, click "link to this photo".

2. Select the size of image to be uploaded. I normally use large - 800x. You have to do this first because the link that you will create will include this info.

3. Copy all the text in the "embed image" frame. Within this diatribe you should find 2 http addresses. Normally the 2nd one will start with http and end in .jpg. It is this 2nd address that you want.

4. Delete everything before http and after .jpg and add the before and after this text and you will have a link to your photo.

HTH


----------



## DavidE (18 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":33krdwl2 said:


> DavidE":33krdwl2 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike - have you got any idea what the flow rate of your vac is (or just have a look at the motor power rating as it can probably be compared to similar vacs?) That way if you post your dimensions it should be possible to see what the basic flow numbers are. (If you could estimate the baffle areas (closed to open) and pipe sizes that would be good too.
> ...



Hi Mike, Okay grand I'll have a look at these numbers when I'm more awake (I'm rather jet lagged at the moment).

Thanks, David


----------



## Mike Saville (19 Jan 2010)

Just thought I'd poke my head above the parapet. There's another 'Garnham special' in development in a shed near me 8). 

My plan is for something more upright, with vacuum mounted on top and wheels so it can easily be moved.

I've got some leftover castors from another job, got a cheap 2nd hand hoover, some spare exterior ply, plenty of hose - now just need to find some time to make it


----------



## BMac (19 Jan 2010)

Mike, 

There's a version of what you are going to do on here, I'll try to find it.

Brendan

Edit: Found it: 

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... highlight=


----------



## MikeG. (19 Jan 2010)

Brendan,

do you mean me? If so, you are about 20 years too late, as I made the first of mine back in the 80's. It's still going strong, and is the pattern for most of the current crop on here.  

Mike


----------



## SimonB (19 Jan 2010)

Mike, I think Brendan meant Mike Saville's idea of vac on top on wheels, as per Niki's that he has linked to.


----------



## Mike Saville (19 Jan 2010)

Thanks for the link, I had seen that, though I don't have access to a bin/tub like that. I do have some scrap ply though so will use that. 

It's along the same lines though in terms of vac on top and wheels on bottom.

I'll post some pics as I go.


----------



## BMac (19 Jan 2010)

LOL, too many 'Mikes', we'll have to give you numbers.

Brendan


----------



## Shultzy (19 Jan 2010)

Jimjam, Niki's original dust box with vac on top is here.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... t=dust+box


----------



## Mike Saville (19 Jan 2010)

Now that's more or less exactly what I am doing - actually started construction earlier this eve - pics tomorrow. I'll be doing the same - cut in 2 and then use some latches to hold the two halves together. I'd not considered the filter mesh/material .. . ..


----------



## Mike Saville (20 Jan 2010)

As promised some pics from the start I made last night.


```
So here's a pile of materials, some ply, wheels and hardboard:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2985.jpg[/img]
Cutting pieces to size with circular saw and homemade guide rail:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2986.jpg[/img]
Boards cut to size:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2987.jpg[/img]
Test fit and sinking some holes:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2988.jpg[/img]
Some silicone in the joints to make it air tight:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2989.jpg[/img]
Once I'd screwed together I got silicone squeeze out all along the joints - hopefully means they're airtight!:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2990.jpg[/img]
Cutting the hole in the top 'shelf':
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2991.jpg[/img]
Top 'shelf' fitted:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2992.jpg[/img]
Lower baffle installed:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2993.jpg[/img]
Batons and hardboard screwed and drilled in place:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2994.jpg[/img]
Progress so far:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2995.jpg[/img]
```

That was after a couple of hours last night - much of which spent making decisions >

I hope to finish build tonight, but we'll see. For info dimensions are 500x400x600mm (wxdxh). This is max I could have for the space I've got. I could have left the vac off the top and made it taller but I want to fix vac on top and only have to move 1 object.


----------



## Mike Saville (21 Jan 2010)

Got another hour in the shed last night to finish this off.

Top and bottom attached, more silicone, sticky stuff.

```
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2997.jpg[/img]
Drilling holes in the upper baffle:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2998.jpg[/img]
Front siliconed and ready to go on:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_2999.jpg[/img]
A solid box:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3000.jpg[/img]
Using the guide rail to cut the top off the box:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3001.jpg[/img]
In two halves, a lid and the base/bin:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3002.jpg[/img]
As luck would have it the door seal I had left over from our front door appears to be exactly 18mm wide, perfect :D  :
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3005.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3006.jpg[/img]
Catches installed to lock two halves together:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3008.jpg[/img]
Castors attached:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3009.jpg[/img]
Vac attached. I simply screwed through the base into the top of my box:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3010.jpg[/img]
Vac on top and intake hose cut to length:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3011.jpg[/img]
Plenty of hot melt glue to attach hose through hole in top of box:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3012.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3013.jpg[/img]
Hole drilled in side for main hose to tools:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3014.jpg[/img]
More hot glue and hose attached to side:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3015.jpg[/img]
Completed:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3016.jpg[/img]
In it's new home:
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3018.jpg[/img]
Finally a first test. It works!!! Shavings in the box and not the bag :D
[img]http://www.mikesaville.co.uk/images/woodwork/IMG_3017.jpg[/img]
```


----------



## MikeG. (21 Jan 2010)

Well done Mike.....very neat! It will be interesting to see the door off when the box is half-full or so, and to see exactly how much if any makes it through to the vacuum cleaner.

Mike


----------



## Mike Saville (21 Jan 2010)

Well, I've got 15 sheets of MDF to cut up into about 100 components in the next few days so that'll be a real test for it


----------



## Mike.C (21 Jan 2010)

You all seem to grasp Mike's idea with no problem at all, so I am sorry if the following questions seem stupid with obvious answer's, but here goes anyway. 

How did Mike (Saville) decide where to put the baffle's and how many to use? 

What are the baffle's for? 

How did any of you decide what size box to build? 

I have 100mm metal extraction piping around my workshop, but I am very unsatisfied with its performance. Would one of Mike Garnham's box's work with a 100mm system? and if so how big would the box need to be? 

Or are these boxes only for power tools and small pipes? 

The 100mm piping runs around the workshop at ceiling height, and I have a Scheppach HA 2600 with a fine filter and a Elektra Beckum (Metabo) SPA 1100 connected together (and running at the same time) to one end of the system. And when I use the table saw I have a Camvac twin motored GV386 twin motor connected to the blade guard. 
When this was set up we already had the three extractors, and it was thought that they would easily deal with all the dust, but it has really been a let down and even with two of its motors running the Camvac does not clear much the dust from the table saw. 

All the joints in the metal piping are sealed with tape and only one blast gate is open at a time.

If I can use a box in this system would you use the 3 extractors with a suitable triple adapter at one end of the system? 

Any advice you could give in improving my system will be greatly received. 

Cheers 

Mike


----------



## MikeG. (21 Jan 2010)

Mike.C":f4bm5c4k said:


> How did Mike (Saville) decide where to put the baffle's and how many to use? What are the baffle's for?
> 
> How did any of you decide what size box to build?
> 
> I have 100mm metal extraction piping around my workshop, but I am very unsatisfied with its performance. Would one of Mike Garnham's box's work with a 100mm system? and if so how big would the box need to be?



Mike,

It should work really well with your system, I'd have thought. The thing is, it can be made of scrap in a few hours for zero cost, so if it doesn't work there is no harm done.

My instinct is that your hose cross sectional area is approx. 9 times mine, so the volume in the box should be roughly 9 times the volume of my box......and the dims of mine are above (page 3). The volume of my current box is .08 cu.m roughly, so I reckon yours should be at least three quarters of a cubic metre.......but the bigger it is, the better it will work. 

The baffles are there merely to knock some of the sawust and chips out of the airstream so that gravity can grab them more easily.

The other thing that would make it better, I think, would be if the drop-box was located adjacent to the machine, .....but this probably isn't too important.

The only other thought I have had about your set-up with multiple machines trying to work together to do the extracting, is are they working with each other, or cancelling each other out? 

What you are proposing is exactly what I have in mind when I build my next workshop.

Mike


----------



## Mike Saville (21 Jan 2010)

Mike.C":3t2vi737 said:


> How did Mike (Saville) decide where to put the baffle's and how many to use?



Erm. . . . .guessed. I pretty much copied the topology of Mike Garnham's design and adjusted it to fit the thinner/taller space available to me.


----------



## Mike.C (22 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":23gyvxxp said:


> Mike.C":23gyvxxp said:
> 
> 
> > How did Mike (Saville) decide where to put the baffle's and how many to use? What are the baffle's for?
> ...


 
Mike many thanks for the explanation and the size of the box I need. 

As for the 3 extractors cancelling each other out, I will have to do some testing but I think you might very well be right, because if you disconnect and put your hand over the inlet of a single extractor, and then go over and test the inlet pipe by a machine with all 3 extractors running, I am sure the single extractor feels more powerful. 
Have you got any tips on positioning the extractors? (the metal piping runs down the complete lenght of a 26ft x 13ft workshop, with several branches running off to my machines) Or would I be better off selling them and buying a single more powerful extractor to do the job? 
If so have you (or anyone else) got any recomendations? 
What figures should I be looking at? For instance Scheppach claim that their HA2600 has a volume rating of 1000m3 per hour, 1/sec, is this the figure, because I cannot see any other info? 
The Elektra Beckum is 842 m3/h and the Camvac gives their's in litres 108 l/sec. 

I have this type of blast gate http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/sp-4 ... oryID1=979 (but not from this company). Can they ever cause a problem by leaking? 

Once again any advice will be gratefully received 

Cheers 

Mike


----------



## jlawrence (22 Jan 2010)

Mike, it sounds like you're after something similar to me - ie one box that can connect to any machine.
I wasn't thinking of having 2 extractors sucking at the same time, but rather just having 2 (chip & dust) connected to a single box and suitable outlets for each machine. Each outlet/inlet would need a blast gate - ideally they'd be linked in someway but that wouldn't really be necessary.
So if I were running the chip extractor I'd have the gate open to the 100mm piping, and likewise for the dust extractor (whatever size piping that'd need).


----------



## woodbloke (23 Jan 2010)

Here's a pic of my effort to date: 







The orientation of the box is vertical, so to lengthen the air passage I've installed a thee way baffle system, so the flow of the air is in a sort of an 'S' shape. Input and outputs have been marked for 63mm tubing from Axminster
Next job is to sort out the door - Rob


----------



## MikeG. (23 Jan 2010)

Looks good Rob. Are you planning on a see-through door, or are you going to do a solid one? The vertical baffle in the main chamber is one you might end up adjusting, maybe. The closer to the inlet hose that it is the more abrupt the shock for the shavings rushing in, and the more likely they are to fall unconscious on the floor.........you get my drift!

Mike


----------



## Mike Saville (23 Jan 2010)

Was doing some tidying up with mine earlier today. Got within a couple of inches of a jay cloth - next thing I know it's flying down my 5m hose like one of those dutsers you seen in the demos for central vac systems. :shock: 

Took the lid of and there it was lying among all the dust - sorry no pic  

Does show that alls working and no loss of 'suck' 8)


----------



## woodbloke (23 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":230l9rvv said:


> Looks good Rob. Are you planning on a see-through door, or are you going to do a solid one? The vertical baffle in the main chamber is one you might end up adjusting, maybe. The closer to the inlet hose that it is the more abrupt the shock for the shavings rushing in, and the more likely they are to fall unconscious on the floor.........you get my drift!
> 
> Mike


The positioning of that main vertical baffle also occurred to me as soon as I'd fixed it in place. No problem, as everything is just screwed together internally so tomorrow I'll take all the gubbins out the middle and reposition that baffle a lot closer to the input port 
The door will be solid with a narrow vertical see through panel made from an oddment of 6mm acrylic...I've worked out a cunning way to fit the door in place with toggles made from 6mm birch ply to give a air tight seal - Rob


----------



## woodsworth (24 Jan 2010)

Wouldn't it be easier to recycle one of the thousands of cyclone's tossed away at the skip? I seen this one on another forum.






I think i'll try and make something similar. 

Or is the idea to be anti cyclone?


----------



## woodbloke (24 Jan 2010)

woodsworth":3kt4qgb3 said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to recycle one of the thousands of cyclone's tossed away at the skip?


What skip is that and where is it? I've never seen anything like that in a skip and I can't resist a quick peek into any one I happen to pass.
Mike's idea is not anti-c but just a cheaper way of achieving the same end result and one which ought to be within the remit of anyone who can use basic tools...and it's a great way of using up gash material - Rob


----------



## jlawrence (24 Jan 2010)

There are loads of those dyson cyclones on the tip. Problem is that I've not found any tips nowadays that let you take anything away 
I've seen alsorts of potentially useful stuff at the tip - not much use seeing it if I can't have it though. So now I just close my eyes and forget I ever saw all that wood.........


----------



## SPinonit (24 Jan 2010)

I have half created a dropout box/dust collector/whatever it's called, which I have done a basic test and works very well. I kept it very simple - the same as Mike's original, although I do plan to put a vacuum dust filter (not HEPA- just ordinary) in the top left box just before the exit to the vacuum itself. 












As I said, I started and then got diverted with another project. I bought 5m of Henry Hoover hose from fleabay and I think it should fit, but this is probably my biggest challenge. This took about two hours to knock up and I just used off cuts and bits and pieces. It isn't pretty, but it did seem effective. I'll post more pics and test results when it's finished. 

Steve


----------



## woodbloke (24 Jan 2010)

SPinonit":k9mraqdz said:


> I have half created a dropout box/dust collector/whatever it's called, which I have done a basic test and works very well. I kept it very simple - the same as Mike's original, although I do plan to put a vacuum dust filter (not HEPA- just ordinary) in the top left box just before the exit to the vacuum itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You've done this one 'landscape' whereas I did mine 'portrait' which is the reason I put in the extra layer to increase the air flow length - Rob


----------



## sometimewoodworker (24 Jan 2010)

woodsworth":go7ix7na said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to recycle one of the thousands of cyclone's tossed away at the skip? I seen this one on another forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could you give a link to the thread on the forum that found that please. 

I am soon to update my setup and there seem to be some good ideas there.


----------



## Mike.C (24 Jan 2010)

Mike.C":lbdo3bo4 said:


> Mike Garnham":lbdo3bo4 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike.C":lbdo3bo4 said:
> ...



I would appreciate any tips on the above.

By the way Steve what a bleeding awful result we had against stoke city today :roll: 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## woodsworth (24 Jan 2010)

http://sanaka.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Cycloned-Shop-Vac/10837914_qxJSY#755871538_XCoZH

Here you go. The forum is member only but he posted it on the above link in one of his galleries, which actually gives more detail then the forum post any how. 

This is the route i want to go. I'll just have to nick a hoover from the skip next time i'm there. Seems silly you can't recycle something that someone has thrown away. Then i'll have to find a shop vac on the cheap. I want to actually put the shop vac up in the attic though and re-pipe the exhaust back in the room. I can't stand all the noise.


----------



## SPinonit (24 Jan 2010)

Mike.C":21fsbjgk said:


> By the way Steve what a bleeding awful result we had against stoke city today :roll:


 
Yeah, it was a rubbish result, but I think Arsene was right to rest some players - we've got a difficult few weeks ahead: Villa, Man U, Chelski, Liverpool and then Champs League against Porto. Let's hope they make up for today's poor performance eh....


----------



## DavidE (24 Jan 2010)

Mike.C":2t76u2vj said:


> I would appreciate any tips on the above.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike



Hi Mike,

I think unless you have both extractors connected together with identical pipework one will tend to draw through the other. I tried connecting two together a few years back and it was dire. When you look at the dual/triple motor designs they are all in the same chamber so should act together. I've certainly found running one extractor is a lot more effective.


Other stuff - 

I think the recycling is top notch, however, if you are trying to make it work on a bigger system... depending on the diameter of the salvaged part it may inccur a high pressure/extraction loss. The idea with the boxes is to get the drop out without any significant losses. I think to be effective on a 100mm system you'd need to make a bigger cyclone. I say this just from my engineering instinct not from any empirical experience! (so read with a pinch of salt  )

I have every intention of trying to post detail of what is going on inside Mikes orginal box... I've just not got round to it yet. Hopefully, one night this week!

Cheers
David


----------



## Mike.C (25 Jan 2010)

Dave many thanks for taking the time to reply it is very much appreciated. I have done some testing and there is a definite drop in suction when all three are running.

The trouble is I do not understand the power readings that the manufacturers give, and what to look for in an extractor to run the complete system. I am ok making a drop box, but it is going to be of no use if I cannot decide or get recommendations if the above extractors are any good, or if I should sell all three and buy one machine that will run the system in my size of workshop.  
It is very frustrating to know that the knowledge is out there but I cannot obtain it. Especially when dust extraction is a pet hate of mine.

Again with reference to the link above I do not even know if the blast gates I have are any good, because just pulling them shut and tightening a bolt in my mind does not seem good enough, and although I cannot feel or hear any air escaping past them, I would have thought that they would need a rubber type gasket to seal the system properly. But there again I do not know much about the workings of dust extractors and all the parts that go into making a system to really know if I am right or not.

Cheers

Mike

Cheers

Mike


----------



## DavidE (25 Jan 2010)

Mike.C":hud77com said:


> Dave many thanks for taking the time to reply it is very much appreciated. I have done some testing and there is a definite drop in suction when all three are running.
> 
> The trouble is I do not understand the power readings that the manufacturers give, and what to look for in an extractor to run the complete system. I am ok making a drop box, but it is going to be of no use if I cannot decide or get recommendations if the above extractors are any good, or if I should sell all three and buy one machine that will run the system in my size of workshop.
> It is very frustrating to know that the knowledge is out there but I cannot obtain it. Especially when dust extraction is a pet hate of mine.
> ...



Hi Mike,

I agree looking at extractors is confusing. From my own boggy tread through the specs I think there are too broad types:

Chip Extractors - lots of volume - however, they are not good on small diameter pipes - like extracting off a sander.

Higher pressure, lower volume ones (More like shop vacs or the record power RSDE1s etc) They can stand smaller pipes and still maintain their suction. They also usually filter down to much smaller sizes as they are intended more for dust.

The difference is down to the type of impellor used to generate the flow and their ability to pull down (ie higher vacuum) on the system.

So, I think you have to make a choice, chips or dust. Then from that work out what flow rate you need. I find that my 1kW (53l/s) RSDE1 is okay for most stuff, however, for the table saw I wish I had the too motor version to give twice the suck. I think if you try to visual how much air it is shifting per second it gives you a good idea of what is going on. The other thing you can look at is the flow speed. If you look on page one you can work out an approximate flow speed at your ports and visualise how well that will be able to "fight" the speed of the particles ejected by the machine.

I hope this sort of makes sense? I have noticed some manufacturers do recommend flow rates for equipment so it might be useful looking for that.

The other choice comes down to motor type and noise (after the particle size you are targeting)

Regarding your blast gates - I think they are okay as if there is any small gaps the system tends to pull them tight. To test them out put a thin plastic bag over the end to try to seal it, then see if it gets sucked in.

The other thing to try is to shut all the gates and listen to your extractor. If it sucks the system down and goes mad they are sealing. At this point if one is leaking it is likely to be whistling and will also try to pull the bag in more.

Cheers
David

PS What extractors are you using and what is your biggest dust producer in the workshop?


----------



## Mike.C (25 Jan 2010)

DavidE":2b0clsrk said:


> Mike.C":2b0clsrk said:
> 
> 
> > Dave many thanks for taking the time to reply it is very much appreciated. I have done some testing and there is a definite drop in suction when all three are running.
> ...



Hi Dave,

Now that you have put it in laymans terms so to speak we are getting somewhere, and I can certainly put my mind at rest about the blast gates with your fool proof test =D> 

I also understand the difference between the two types of extractors, and I use the Scheppach HA 2600 and Elecktra Beckum chip extractors, and for fine dust the twin motored Camvac GV386. I also use the latter running from the blade guard when I am using the table saw. (along with the chip extractors. A mistake I suspect).

Thanks for your reply

Mike


----------



## big soft moose (25 Jan 2010)

so who's going to be the first to build a garnham box in polished rosewood and burr walnut with a marquetry detail on the lid - we know how much mike would appreciate that  :lol:


----------



## Chris_belgium (30 Jan 2010)

My box 












Will be mounted like this. (I know there should be a blade guard on the P/T  )





Will have two outlets, one big one for the planer/thicknesser and a small one for handheld tools. Am planning on installing some ducting around my workshop with various connections for vacuum hose.

Hopefully the box is big enough for this motor, there are no markings on the motor as to how many air it moves only electrical markings. Will keep you guys updated as to how it works, when the ducting parts arrive.


----------



## Chris Knight (30 Jan 2010)

We'll soon need a prize for the largest! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle


----------



## wizer (31 Jan 2010)

Guys, I've been reading through this thread. A lot of it's gone over my head. There is one problem that I have with this idea, for me. All of these designs call for someone who's not a feeble medical wreck, in that they either drop out into a box which needs to be lifted to pour into another bin for disposal and\or the top section needs to be lifted completely off, which looks heavy to me.

I _was _thinking about incorporating a drop box directly under my tablesaw, integrated into a cabinet. But the problem with this is getting the full 'hopper' out and into the wheelie bin or a sack for taking to the dump. 

So two things have crossed my mind. Firstly and simply, can a bag be put in to collect the dust? Or would that not work in terms of suction?

Secondly, what about fitting a drop box above the wheelie bin? So that the waste goes straight into the bin and can be wheeled out on bin day? Because of my feebleness, I'd need to think of a way to make removing the drop box part easily. I'm thinking, then that it would need to be part of an 'enclosure'.

This has turned out to be a bit of a brain dump. Any thoughts on my ramblings?


----------



## sometimewoodworker (31 Jan 2010)

wizer":2bge5nzk said:


> Guys, I've been reading through this thread. A lot of it's gone over my head. There is one problem that I have with this idea, for me. All of these designs call for someone who's not a feeble medical wreck, in that they either drop out into a box which needs to be lifted to pour into another bin for disposal and\or the top section needs to be lifted completely off, which looks heavy to me.
> 
> I _was _thinking about incorporating a drop box directly under my tablesaw, integrated into a cabinet. But the problem with this is getting the full 'hopper' out and into the wheelie bin or a sack for taking to the dump.
> 
> ...


There is no problem doing what you need as long as it will be stationary. All you have to do is scale up either of the designs that use a separate container. 
You will have a Godzilla of a collector as you will need to enclose the wheelie bin .
You will probably have to buy another wheelie bin because you will probably only need to take it out once a month/year. 

The one woodsworth found will work if you make it in a fixed location


----------



## woodbloke (31 Jan 2010)

Tom - if you look at the 'Blokebox' thread, I've designed this to work with the K419, but I haven't fitted an internal box for easy disposal of the dust...could be easily done though with a little bit of re-jigging - Rob


----------



## wizer (1 Feb 2010)

woodbloke":3hq1ljhm said:


> Tom - if you look at the 'Blokebox' thread, I've designed this to work with the K419, but I haven't fitted an internal box for easy disposal of the dust...could be easily done though with a little bit of re-jigging - Rob



This was my initial thought, to have a drawer under the saw that collected the dust, via a Garnham style drop box. However, when thinking about it further, disposing of that dust might be a problem. Not just because of the weight\spine issue, but also because it'd be bloody messy. The only way to stop that dust from getting back into the air would be to carefully take it outside and tip it into the bin or bag with the wind behind you. Not the absolute end of the world, but if the wind happens to be blowing towards the house (or my neighbours house), then it becomes an issue. As such, this idea isn't viable, for me.



sometimewoodworker":3hq1ljhm said:


> You will have a Godzilla of a collector



Yes, you see that's the problem I can't get my head around. All these drop boxes add a significant amount of footprint. I'm not entirely sure that it's worth the loss of floor space over the gain in filter efficiency. I own an RSDE2 which, at the moment is used mainly on the TS and for clearing up. To use this with a drop box or cyclone would mean doubling the size of it. To remedy this, I think I'd have to shorten the drum of the RSDE2 significantly to reduce it's size. If space were no object, I'd have the chip collector and RSDE2 next to each other, each feeding a wheelie bin with a cyclone above. But that would rape a vast amount of wall space in an already cramped workshop. We rarely use our brown bin for anything except sawdust, so there wouldn't be any need to get a 2nd wheelie. Although, as I say, it would also be nice to fit wheelie to the chip collector.

This is the sort of thing I have in mind





Obviously the wheelie would go underneath.

Very confused. I think it's easier to just stick with the current setup. :?


----------



## sometimewoodworker (1 Feb 2010)

wizer":32r0botx said:


> woodbloke":32r0botx said:
> 
> 
> > Tom - if you look at the 'Blokebox' thread, I've designed this to work with the K419, but I haven't fitted an internal box for easy disposal of the dust...could be easily done though with a little bit of re-jigging - Rob
> ...



I don't see the problem with that idea. 

If you put a rubbish bag in the draw keep and it in place with 3 or 4 bits of loose thin ply, MDF or cardboard. Then when you want to dump it just whip out the liners and tie the top of the bag. 

The one under is a different shape but the same principal. :arrow:








wizer":32r0botx said:


> sometimewoodworker":32r0botx said:
> 
> 
> > You will have a Godzilla of a collector
> ...



If you have the hight you could knock the bottom of the RSDE2 out and fit it to a a shaped top that fits your wheelie, then all the dust it collects will go directly into the wheelie. Of course that presupposes you can lift the empty RSDE2.[/img]


----------



## MikeG. (1 Feb 2010)

sometimewoodworker":3vk5wdgc said:


> If you have the hight you could knock the bottom of the RSDE2 out and fit it to a a shaped top that fits your wheelie, then all the dust it collects will go directly into the wheelie.



But that misses the point! The whole point of the design is to prevent dust getting to your main machine, and to its filter. If it doesn't get to the filter, it can't get through it and into the air you breath.

Mike


----------



## woodsworth (1 Feb 2010)

> This has turned out to be a bit of a brain dump. Any thoughts on my ramblings?



I think a simple solution for you would be to buy or find a lid for a wheely bin and attach a cyclone to it. Then all you need is a very good shop vac. 

All you do is open the wheely bin put your cyclone lid on with good gasket and clips, hook up the hose to your table saw and plug in your shop vac and bobs your uncle. 

Disclaimer:
I do not condone steeling your neighbors lid


----------



## wizer (1 Feb 2010)

woodsworth":pu8ois7n said:


> I think a simple solution for you would be to buy or find a lid for a wheely bin and attach a cyclone to it. Then all you need is a very good shop vac.



I think I came to this conclusion last night. A small cyclone would be better in terms of weight and size. I may even be able to situate it out the front of the workshop with my new plans for the door.

Thanks guys, need to spend some time with sketchup now.


----------



## Recky33 (5 Feb 2010)

Has anyone tried using the cyclone off of an old Dyson, cant be that difficult, surely if your only looking to pick up fine dust not chips thats all you will need. and an add in the "come take it off my hands" papers costs nothing

Allan


----------



## Recky33 (7 Feb 2010)

Bit like this







Works a treat, now its sealed proper

Allan


----------



## big soft moose (7 Feb 2010)

Mike Garnham":37jxzaa1 said:


> sometimewoodworker":37jxzaa1 said:
> 
> 
> > If you have the hight you could knock the bottom of the RSDE2 out and fit it to a a shaped top that fits your wheelie, then all the dust it collects will go directly into the wheelie.
> ...



until the time comes to empty the drop out box at which points clouds of it go in all directions.


----------

