# Neighbours built over our property - need legal agreement



## Triggaaar (5 Jun 2014)

Well it's not as bad as it sounds in the title, but it's not right either.

Our neighbours did a large extension, and built right up to, and touching, the boundary brick wall. They also built the wall (Wall A) of their extension up above the height of the shared boundary wall. At the top of their new wall, they have a gutter. To deal with the water that hits Wall A, they have put ply and then lead of top of the boundary wall, sending the water over to our side. The lead comes down our side a couple of inches.

I wasn't too impressed when I saw what they'd done, and the neighbour made it seem like he didn't realise, and the builder just did it. But it turns out he's basically a property developer who was taking the micky.

Now it's not a great hardship for us, so I'm not planning on making them re-do their work, but at the same time I don't want a length of time to pass that means we can't do anything about it even if we wanted to. So if possible, I'd like to write up something legally that says they can leave it as it is until such a time that we ask them to change it.

Does anyone have any advice on how that can be done etc?

Many thanks


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## Doug B (5 Jun 2014)

I'd get in touch with your local planning officer & see what he has to say about it, sound very dubious to me


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## Triggaaar (5 Jun 2014)

Doug B":1ym8z2zs said:


> I'd get in touch with your local planning officer & see what he has to say about it, sound very dubious to me


But that would simply be getting them to make the neighbours re-build, rather than leave it as is as long as they don't **** us off, or object to planning when we apply.


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## Stimpi (5 Jun 2014)

Get on to Building Control as well. Did you not get a view of their intentions before they built?

Regards
Mike B


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## Triggaaar (5 Jun 2014)

Stimpi":3baepaal said:


> Get on to Building Control as well. Did you not get a view of their intentions before they built?


Just the plans online, which don't show anything about it. You shouldn't need to go through all the details of someone's plan to be sure they're not building on your land right :shock:


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## Cowboy _Builder (5 Jun 2014)

If they build on or overhang your boundary without consent they must remove it, They would not have had planning consent to do so without your written permission ...I went through a similar situation last year.
My neighbour objected to me building up to the boundary until I pointed out to they that their guttering was overhanging my property ,we reached a compromise I moved my wall 50m/m and will reduce the gutter to accommodate my building .
His boundary fence is on my land by 4 inches my solicitor sent him a letter telling him that although the fence is his the land is still mine ,and if you want to sell your house in the future it could be a deal breaker, you really should get it sorted ASAP .


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## Triggaaar (5 Jun 2014)

Thank you for the replies.


Cowboy _Builder":cou598t2 said:


> They would not have had planning consent to do so without your written permission


Obviously  And to be honest, even if they had planning permission to do it, they couldn't. Planning don't have the authority to give my land to someone else.

But I'm not sure I just want them to remove it - it's no big deal, I just want something legal that means we can get them to remove it at a later date it required.



> His boundary fence is on my land by 4 inches my solicitor sent him a letter telling him that although the fence is his the land is still mine


So you haven't got them to move the fence? That sounds exactly like my situation. But I want them to sign something that agrees it's our land, and they're only having the lead and water run-off there as long as we allow them to.



> and if you want to sell your house in the future it could be a deal breaker you really should get it sorted ASAP .


Exactly my thoughts.


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## MickCheese (5 Jun 2014)

If I were buying a home and saw that I would be concerned.

And it's not just the purchaser, often it's the solicitor who takes the initiative as the mortgage company have a share in the property until it's paid off.

But

I have had issues with a neighbour many years ago and it was hell, we ended up moving house to get away before I killed him, so try not to fall out over this. Not easy.

Mick


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## Stimpi (5 Jun 2014)

You have to do it I am not allowed to give provisional advice on a forum . Seek advice from your council start with Building Control They may give you a list of surveyors which you can contact or one of their surveyors will get the ball rolling but do it.
Regards
Mike B


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## Triggaaar (5 Jun 2014)

MickCheese":25zueb2v said:


> If I were buying a home and saw that I would be concerned.


Indeed, so I want to ensure we have the option to do something about it.


Stimpi":25zueb2v said:


> You have to do it I am not allowed to give provisional advice on a forum . Seek advice from your council start with Building Control They may give you a list of surveyors which you can contact or one of their surveyors will get the ball rolling but do it.


Seek advice to with an aim of getting something legal written up, or just having it removed?


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## Cowboy _Builder (5 Jun 2014)

The fence was there before I moved in ,The previous owner (now dead) gave them verbal permission or so they say but I'm not going to ask them to move it as 4 inch of my garden is nothing and I have to live there for the foreseeable future ,also when you move you are asked about any disputes or problems with your neighbours so in my experience it's best to keep everything sweet .


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## Triggaaar (5 Jun 2014)

Cowboy _Builder":ns3rh56d said:


> I'm not going to ask them to move it as 4 inch of my garden is nothing and I have to live there for the foreseeable future ,also when you move you are asked about any disputes or problems with your neighbours so in my experience it's best to keep everything sweet .


Indeed, I agree. So I don't want the council telling them to move it, I just want it agreed in writing that it's not permanent.


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## pip1954 (5 Jun 2014)

hi i would worry about after he has sold and gone.
YOU are left with the problem it then becomes he said you said and you are left with the outcome. he as you said is a developer he won't care about your point of view best bet is strike while the iron is hot .
get it sorted asap
all the best 
pip


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## Triggaaar (6 Jun 2014)

pip1954":2kh361ij said:


> hi i would worry about after he has sold and gone.
> YOU are left with the problem it then becomes he said you said and you are left with the outcome. he as you said is a developer he won't care about your point of view


Although I don't think he's going anywhere, I think they plan on having it as their main home for a long time, I wouldn't let it become he said I said, so I want to get something in writing now - I just don't know if there's any sort of standard agreement that would suit this scenario.



> all the best
> pip


Cheers


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## deserter (6 Jun 2014)

Sounds to me like you have 3 options.
1) contact planning / building control.
2) contact a solicitor.
3) live with it.
I'd rule out 3 as if it's annoyed you now the feeling will only get worse. Personally I'd contact the building regs as it will cost you nothing, nut may upset the neighbor, having said that he didn't worry about upsetting you when he did the works.
Option 2 I'd the only way your likely to get an agreement however it will likely cost you a fortune, and if I were the developer, there is no way I would sign anything saying the building works are alright now but if you change your mind they must come down. I think you'll end up arguing anyway.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Jun 2014)

If there is any boundary dispute you or your neighbour has to disclose it if either property is sold, which will make any buyer run a mile. Sort it out legally.


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## Doug B (6 Jun 2014)

Whilst I appreciate you don't want to upset your neighbour obviously the feeling isn't mutual, otherwise he wouldn't have let it happen in the first place. It's obvious to anyone that can look upwards that guttering, on the whole, sticks out from buildings.
Presumably as is often the case he just wanted to maximise his floor space & was happy to let the builder build tight to the boundary, I would also imagine if the wall has been built sited in the centre of the footing to spec that those footings also extend on to you land by more than the overhang of the gutter.

As others have said by not acting now you are potentially storing problems for a later date that could be costly to you, I have over the years seen many boundary disputes & the only definite in any of them is that they have been very expensive to resolve. 
At the moment you have a chance to sort it inexpensively through building control, if they agree it is over your land the easiest solution would be to sell the neighbour the small strip of land if you are not bothered about it, he could pay all costs for altering the deeds, there would be no future problems & it would be less costly to him than a rebuild.


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## Triggaaar (6 Jun 2014)

deserter":2azdtwqp said:


> Sounds to me like you have 3 options.
> 1) contact planning / building control.
> 2) contact a solicitor.
> 3) live with it.
> ...


Thanks.

I'm not doing 3) - not because I'm particularly annoyed, I just don't want it to be a problem in the future (eg, if stains run down our white wall, I'd want them doing the repainting etc). Re 2) I thought there might be something someone has done before, or that an architect could do (as architects do party wall agreements). If they won't sign anything, they can take it down now.


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## Triggaaar (6 Jun 2014)

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.


phil.p":1t1l7dc5 said:


> If there is any boundary dispute you or your neighbour has to disclose it if either property is sold, which will make any buyer run a mile. Sort it out legally.


Thanks.



Doug B":1t1l7dc5 said:


> Whilst I appreciate you don't want to upset your neighbour obviously the feeling isn't mutual


You may be right there 



> It's obvious to anyone that can look upwards that guttering, on the whole, sticks out from buildings.
> Presumably as is often the case he just wanted to maximise his floor space & was happy to let the builder build tight to the boundary, I would also imagine if the wall has been built sited in the centre of the footing to spec that those footings also extend on to you land by more than the overhang of the gutter.


I've just had another look - I don't know if they had many footings to do, as they (mostly) built on top of an existing wall. It seems their wall actually stops about 4" before the boundary, so the guttering is on their side - but they filled the gap between the wall and the boundary wall, and then they've got a big chunk of ply and lead to send the excess water to us.



> As others have said by not acting now you are potentially storing problems for a later date that could be costly to you


Which is why I'm acting now 



> if they agree it is over your land the easiest solution would be to sell the neighbour the small strip of land if you are not bothered about it, he could pay all costs for altering the deeds, there would be no future problems & it would be less costly to him than a rebuild.


I doubt that would be low cost - there's the expense of paying for the deeds to be changed, and then there's the price of the land. But aside from the cost, it sounds like an odd solution, as it's not at the bottom of our garden or something, it's along our side path, next to our house. Even if they owned the boundary wall I wouldn't think they should be sending water onto it?


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## Doug B (6 Jun 2014)

Any chance of a photo?


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Jun 2014)

Trigaaar - the cost should be all his.


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## SurreyHills (6 Jun 2014)

As others have said contact Building Control. If they advise that it should come down you can always approach your neighbour and offer a compromise - it can stay if he pays for your solicitor costs to put together some form of legal agreement that it is temporary and may need to be removed if you decide to sell you property and/or he sells his.


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## Triggaaar (6 Jun 2014)

Doug B":2dffjkqz said:


> Any chance of a photo?


Maybe.


phil.p":2dffjkqz said:


> Trigaaar - the cost should be all his.


No question. He'll either pay, or take it down. I'm not wanting to make money from it or be a pain to the neighbours, but I'm also not wanting to be stuck with it with no choice.



SurreyHills":2dffjkqz said:


> As others have said contact Building Control. If they advise that it should come down you can always approach your neighbour and offer a compromise - it can stay if he pays for your solicitor costs to put together some form of legal agreement that it is temporary and may need to be removed if you decide to sell you property and/or he sells his.


That's exactly what I'm after.

And I'd like planning for an extension at some point (even more reason not to fall out). I could go for planning, and then once I have it point out the Planning/Building control have told me their work should come down (and follow your advice).


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## mind_the_goat (6 Jun 2014)

This sounds like an agreement that would have to be assigned to the property so any new owner would be aware of it. Sound like a minefield if you try to do it without professional legal advice.


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## cambournepete (6 Jun 2014)

Triggaaar":1zxeujlu said:


> > I would also imagine if the wall has been built sited in the centre of the footing to spec that those footings also extend on to you land by more than the overhang of the gutter.
> 
> 
> I've just had another look - I don't know if they had many footings to do, as they (mostly) built on top of an existing wall.


In which case I'd be worried about the depth of the footings and their ability to hold the new wall.
Out neighbour in the UK had a single storey extension built and the foundations had to be 6' deep. I think they have to be strong enough to take two storeys (in case they want to expand upwards later).

Talk to building control and planning.


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## Jake (6 Jun 2014)

This is a party wall issue at heart. You might get some help from the council on br or pp but you might well not.


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## Triggaaar (6 Jun 2014)

cambournepete":2pk91xvo said:


> Triggaaar":2pk91xvo said:
> 
> 
> > > I would also imagine if the wall has been built sited in the centre of the footing to spec that those footings also extend on to you land by more than the overhang of the gutter.
> ...


I can't see them extending up later, it's a mansion.



Jake":2pk91xvo said:


> This is a party wall issue at heart. You might get some help from the council on br or pp but you might well not.


I was thinking it's like party wall, and architects deal with that sort of stuff.


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## Triggaaar (6 Jun 2014)

Doug B":2ayqqn6h said:


> Any chance of a photo?



Here you go.
The original spec was for it to be glass. When they rendered it and put the lead over our side, I asked if they would paint the render white (so there's more light on our side, as their wall is south facing) and they said they would. Recently when I asked, they said they weren't going to bother, as it would need maintaining.


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## Doug B (6 Jun 2014)

Whilst not as bad as I thought it would be I would definitely want something sorting with that straight away, give it a couple of years & at best your side of the wall will be badly stained & at worst the face of some of the bricks could be lost due to frost damage.

Plus it looks bloody awful :shock:


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## nanscombe (6 Jun 2014)

I may not be an expert but ...

Why couldn't that lead flashing be made into a "U" shaped channel / gutter and the water directed into their down pipe, or at least away from your wall?



At worst, remove the lead from "your" wall, it might be worth a bob or two. :lol:


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## RogerP (6 Jun 2014)

You could easily catch and tear clothing on that corner edge, also it looks just about child head/eye height. plus it looks the worst sort of amateur bodge job.


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## defsdoor (6 Jun 2014)

If the original spec for that wall was to be glass they have very likely breached planning consent. The council will have most likely insisted on it being glass to ensure you had enough light. If they said they would paint it and are now not bothering I'd suggest they are taking advantage of your (so far) good will.

That being said - I can't see that run off making much difference - theres very little rain likely to run down their wall onto the lead - most of the rain would be what hits it direct.


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## RobinBHM (6 Jun 2014)

If the wall straddles the boundary, then I think it is a party fence wall. I would have thought any alteration would have required a party wall notice being issued.

Also if the neighbours foundations are within 3 metres of your house, this also requires a party wall notice if the neighbours extension footings are deeper than your house footings (I think?).

Party wall agreements, I don't think are council issues. Im not sure if this issue contravenes any planning or building regs. Certainly there are building regs guidelines for dealing with with discharging rainwater -not onto a neighbours land! Any rain hitting the side of the extension can only end up your side. 

In reality I dont think anybody thought about the problem of weathering the small gap between the extension and the garden wall, I expect the builder came up with that as a solution later on -and an obvious place to stop the rendering and hide light weight blocks below. Its certainly an eyesore for you and not an acceptable solution. You should have been consulted before constructing, as a matter of courtesy if nothing else.

If a gap of a 100mm or so was left, this could just have been left open and a French drain or sloping concrete with a gully constructed so any water would run away. I have done this on similar projects.


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## Triggaaar (6 Jun 2014)

defsdoor":2wutj2hg said:


> If the original spec for that wall was to be glass they have very likely breached planning consent. The council will have most likely insisted on it being glass to ensure you had enough light.


Although I never knew about it, they got planning for a Non Material Amendment.



> If they said they would paint it and are now not bothering I'd suggest they are taking advantage of your (so far) good will.


Definitely.



> That being said - I can't see that run off making much difference - theres very little rain likely to run down their wall onto the lead - most of the rain would be what hits it direct.


Yes I don't think there's much either. But I don't want it to be an issue in the future - eg, causing staining on our wall, or being a problem when we sell.




RobinBHM":2wutj2hg said:


> If the wall straddles the boundary, then I think it is a party fence wall. I would have thought any alteration would have required a party wall notice being issued.


Yep, but even with a party wall notice (which they didn't get) they shouldn't be sending anything over to my side,



> If a gap of a 100mm or so was left, this could just have been left open and a French drain or sloping concrete with a gully constructed so any water would run away. I have done this on similar projects.


I don't think they could have easily done that, due to they way it was before they did any work - there used to be a glass wall there, presumably with block below.


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## Jake (7 Jun 2014)

There should have been a party wall agreement on the capping over and drainage off the party wall, but I doubt that the result would have been a requirement to drain towards their side in that situation. The detailing could be a lot more attractive and some sort of more designed drip detail would have been good so less just runs down the wall but the picture isn't anything like as bad as I imagined it would be. Ugly, but not exactly actionable. However, the lack of a party wall agreement gives you some leverage though to get what improvements you want. But, it's difficult to enforce if no notice is served in the first place as the remedy is an injunction (completely impractical £££££££££). So while you can grandstand a bit about it, be aware that you can't push it too far as when it comes to it it is unlikely you would actually do anything.


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## Triggaaar (7 Jun 2014)

Jake":1j3tyqzg said:


> There should have been a party wall agreement on the capping over and drainage off the party wall, but I doubt that the result would have been a requirement to drain towards their side in that situation.


Really!? You sound very confident, but I find that extremely hard to believe. I don't see how a council can demand that you let the neighbours use your property.



> But, it's difficult to enforce if no notice is served in the first place as the remedy is an injunction (completely impractical £££££££££). So while you can grandstand a bit about it, be aware that you can't push it too far as when it comes to it it is unlikely you would actually do anything.


If a neighbours tree branch comes over my fence, I can cut it and pass it back. If push came to shove, I'd do the same with the lead.


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## Baldhead (7 Jun 2014)

[/quote]If a neighbours tree branch comes over my fence, I can cut it and pass it back. If push came to shove, I'd do the same with the lead.[/quote]

I am not 100% certain but if a neighbours tree branch comes over your fence, yes you can cut it back to the boundary, but you cannot simply pass it back, my understand of the law is you must ask if they want the cutting, they can refuse, and if so you must dispose of the branch yourself. If you simply put it back into their garden in theory you are fly tipping.

We have had problem neighbours for years, the information I have given above comes from a legal forum I have used in the past.

HTH

Baldhead


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## Jake (7 Jun 2014)

Triggaaar":zh3yp92g said:


> Jake":zh3yp92g said:
> 
> 
> > There should have been a party wall agreement on the capping over and drainage off the party wall, but I doubt that the result would have been a requirement to drain towards their side in that situation.
> ...



It's nothing to do with the council. The Party Wall Act gives neighbours statutory rights to do things to party walls including a party fence wall like that, subject to serving notices and going through the resolution procedures (or reaching agreement). So if they had gone through the proper procedure, you'd have been given a notice and then either a joint surveyor or a surveyor for each party would have reached a decision and made a binding award. The purpose is to stop neighbours preventing development, while controlling how the development affects those neighbours. The neighbour could have have applied to take down that wall completely and rebuild it as the wall for his extension and would almost certainly have been given permission to do that. I doubt (that's hardly certainty) that surveyors would think it reasonable to make the top of the party fence wall drain towards the extension wall - the vertical wall won't add much to the water coming off the top of the wall especially as the gutter overhangs it. You've have always had the water coming off the top of the wall, or half of it. So there's not much difference.


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## Stimpi (7 Jun 2014)

It does not matter about verbal agreements less than 12 years old.
Your boundary is a line of no thickness which goes up to infinity to space and goes downwards the same unless there is a mining or services wayleave.
What is on your side can be removed by you as long as you do not damage it and you must return it to is owner.
Contact Building Control send a solicitors letter Monday morning.


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## Triggaaar (7 Jun 2014)

Jake":31sgyx12 said:


> It's nothing to do with the council. The Party Wall Act gives neighbours statutory rights to do things to party walls including a party fence wall like that, subject to serving notices and going through the resolution procedures (or reaching agreement). So if they had gone through the proper procedure, you'd have been given a notice and then either a joint surveyor or a surveyor for each party would have reached a decision and made a binding award. The purpose is to stop neighbours preventing development, while controlling how the development affects those neighbours. The neighbour could have have applied to take down that wall completely and rebuild it as the wall for his extension and would almost certainly have been given permission to do that. I doubt (that's hardly certainty) that surveyors would think it reasonable to make the top of the party fence wall drain towards the extension wall - the vertical wall won't add much to the water coming off the top of the wall especially as the gutter overhangs it. You've have always had the water coming off the top of the wall, or half of it. So there's not much difference.


I am surprised by your opinion, that wasn't how I thought it worked. I've used party wall agreements on things like loft extensions, but I can't see why a neighbour would ever have to take your excess water, when it would be normal for you to just extend a few inches less and take it yourself. I've built close to party walls myself, I wouldn't have expected to be able to do that. Although it's not much water, I don't see why I should have it on my path. I'll ask my architect at some point, as he deals with party walls, and see what he says.



Stimpi":31sgyx12 said:


> It does not matter about verbal agreements less than 12 years old.
> Your boundary is a line of no thickness which goes up to infinity to space and goes downwards the same unless there is a mining or services wayleave.
> What is on your side can be removed by you as long as you do not damage it and you must return it to is owner.
> Contact Building Control send a solicitors letter Monday morning.


I don't want to cause trouble on Monday, I'd rather apply for our own extensions etc first.


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## Jake (7 Jun 2014)

Triggaaar":nk3bfhqu said:


> ]I am surprised by your opinion, that wasn't how I thought it worked. I've used party wall agreements on things like loft extensions, but I can't see why a neighbour would ever have to take your excess water, when it would be normal for you to just extend a few inches less and take it yourself. I've built close to party walls myself, I wouldn't have expected to be able to do that. Although it's not much water, I don't see why I should have it on my path. I'll ask my architect at some point, as he deals with party walls, and see what he says.



I'm not criticising, I'd be really annoyed if my neighbour did this to me.

But, there's no meaningful difference in terms of water spillage between what he has done and rebuilding the party fence wall as his actual extension wall, which wouldn't have been particularly controversial (and would probably have been a lot better/neater for you than the status quo).

I'm not saying he hasn't been an aris - he clearly has. And it's butt ugly what he's done, and it's just plain wrong to just do it without any consent from you.


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## Lons (7 Jun 2014)

Hi
From the photo it looks as if their gutter doesn't actually extend past the centre line of the party wall in which case it isn't an issue. Might just be the photo of course.

It's unlikely you can make your neighbour paint his wall but you could offer to do it on his behalf in which case you'd also need to repaint when necessary. You're the only one who looks at it so to your benefit.

The leadwork definitely breaches your party wall rights but it could be costly to solve this legally. Certainly you should have been notified within the alloted times and have been asked to give permission. Very difficult to refuse in an instance like yours and he would have got it. The leadwork is very poorly done however and in your place I would simply re-form it as far as the centre line to redirect the water to his side. Don't cut it as it remains his property just form a gutter with it and then problem gone and nothing to affect future sale.

Or maybe there are other underlying issues and you didn't want the extension in the first place?

I would have thought better a solid wall than glass btw as you wouldn't want the neighbours looking down over your garden.
I'm a builder incidently :wink: 

Bob


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## rafezetter (7 Jun 2014)

Triggaaar":voamtroh said:


> Doug B":voamtroh said:
> 
> 
> > I'd get in touch with your local planning officer & see what he has to say about it, sound very dubious to me
> ...



If he's a building dev, he might be planning to sell up and give the problem to the next unwitting owner

In 2012 a builder mate had a similar issue on a addition / revamp build he was doing - he didn't make the problem, as the home owner had not arranged things with his next door neighbour regarding the party wall and it cost the home owner (my mates client) 10k to put right what he should have sorted before building even began, and put the build over by six months costing my friend a lot of lost work, which he then billed the homeowner for a portion of as an overrun fee. I mention this last as if you do decide to do similar, this unresolved issue could come back and royally bite you in the pineapple.

If you do decide to be lenient - I would get a letter drafted through a solicitor sent to them laying out options, and what you expect them to do in return for this leniency.

However even if he does agree (in writing) to put it right and not make any objections for you to do your own addition (if that's even legally possible to enforce) - this agreement will only stand with that owner and any new owner will be free to object as normal.

So even though you're considering playing nice and offering him the possibility of a get-out-of-jail card you could still be fooling yourself into thinking he (or any new owner) will play the same game - and when it comes to property some people can be particularly "precious" about it. I'm sure you've read stories of neighbours going out of their way to disrupt good neighbours asking nicely for them to do stuff they have a legal responsibility for.

I'd be inclined to get him to do as he's legally bound and cross any other bridge as it comes. His mistake, his cost, tough dung. He'll know next time won't he?

PS do party wall infringements show up in survey's? If so I would DEFINITELY get it sorted to legal requirements so you have no selling issues when the time comes.


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## Triggaaar (7 Jun 2014)

Thanks all for the replies and advice.



Jake":u6qf37fm said:


> I'm not criticising


I know. You're saying what you think the law is, and I'm just surprised.



> But, there's no meaningful difference in terms of water spillage between what he has done and rebuilding the party fence wall as his actual extension wall, which wouldn't have been particularly controversial


But if he asked to build the party wall higher, and I said no, I wouldn't expect he'd be allowed to. It's half my wall.



Lons":u6qf37fm said:


> Hi
> From the photo it looks as if their gutter doesn't actually extend past the centre line of the party wall in which case it isn't an issue.


No, his gutter isn't past the centre line - the gutter is not the issue. His ply and led are past the centre line, and he sends his rain water dripping down my white wall.



> The leadwork definitely breaches your party wall rights but it could be costly to solve this legally. Certainly you should have been notified within the alloted times and have been asked to give permission. Very difficult to refuse in an instance like yours and he would have got it.


He would have got what? And what's the legal reasoning behind that?


> The leadwork is very poorly done however and in your place I would simply re-form it as far as the centre line to redirect the water to his side.


You're saying send the water to his side - where? And how does that tally with 'he would have got it'?



> Or maybe there are other underlying issues and you didn't want the extension in the first place?


No, I never objected to his planning app.



> I would have thought better a solid wall than glass btw as you wouldn't want the neighbours looking down over your garden.


The glass wall would have a) been obscured, and b) been over 2m high, on the ground floor.




rafezetter":u6qf37fm said:


> If he's a building dev, he might be planning to sell up and give the problem to the next unwitting owner


I don't think he's selling.



> In 2012 a builder mate had a similar issue on a addition / revamp build he was doing - he didn't make the problem, as the home owner had not arranged things with his next door neighbour regarding the party wall and it cost the home owner (my mates client) 10k to put right what he should have sorted before building even began, and put the build over by six months costing my friend a lot of lost work, which he then billed the homeowner for a portion of as an overrun fee. I mention this last as if you do decide to do similar, this unresolved issue could come back and royally bite you in the pineapple.


In terms of doing similar, I don't plan to send my lead over a wall. So your mates clients had done similar to my neighbours. What is it that made them have to re-do it, as that's the legal aspect I need.



> If you do decide to be lenient - I would get a letter drafted through a solicitor sent to them laying out options, and what you expect them to do in return for this leniency.


If it's more a party wall thing, then I assume I should speak to my architect first (I've not spoken to him for over a year, but he's done lots of work for me and does a lot of party wall agreements).



> However even if he does agree (in writing) to put it right and not make any objections for you to do your own addition (if that's even legally possible to enforce) - this agreement will only stand with that owner and any new owner will be free to object as normal.


I wouldn't ask him to not object to my own addition. It's highly unlikely they'd object to our addition, unless it was out of spite, as they won't be able to see ours (much smaller). If we had an agreement in writing, then it's unlikely they'd object, knowing I'd get them to redo their work. I'd have to find out about the agreement being attached to the deeds (which could be costly), or just reach a financial agreement.


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## Jake (7 Jun 2014)

Triggaaar":qvo1lpv9 said:


> But if he asked to build the party wall higher, and I said no, I wouldn't expect he'd be allowed to. It's half my wall.



It doesn't work like that, you don't get a veto on what is done to a party wall because you are one of the parties. Too many people would demand ransoms.


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## Triggaaar (8 Jun 2014)

Jake":17pjf6rg said:


> It doesn't work like that, you don't get a veto on what is done to a party wall because you are one of the parties. Too many people would demand ransoms.


Ok, thanks for the info.


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## Lons (8 Jun 2014)

> No, his gutter isn't past the centre line - the gutter is not the issue. His ply and led are past the centre line, and he sends his rain water dripping down my white wall.


I mentioned the gutter because you did in your original post. Misread it and thought that was part of your issue.


> But if he asked to build the party wall higher, and I said no, I wouldn't expect he'd be allowed to. It's half my wall


He would very likely have received permission anyway, just taken longer.


> He would have got what? And what's the legal reasoning behind that?
> You're saying send the water to his side - where? And how does that tally with 'he would have got it'?


See comment above and as far as the leadwork he would probably be allowed anyway. The lead isn't a planning issue it would be encompassed within building regs but they would see that as a very minor detail as it isn't projecting water from major parts of the building just protecting a small gap between wall and extension. What should have happened is you would have been consulted and an application/notification made reference the party wall act. Had you objected to the detail they would needed to have explored other methods or even built tight against the wall leaving no gap or on top of their half once addequate footings were installed. It's more common than you might think.
If they had been a bit more clever they would have extended the lead only to the centre line which wouldn't encroach on your side but would still shed water your way and it's highly unlikely you could do a damn thing about it. As said there will be little additional water and depending on the orientation of the building it might even offer protection from wind blown rain.

I'm not a legal expert, I'm a builder offering you the benefit of my experience to take or leave as you wish and I think you know the answer is to talk first maybe to your architect as you say he has experience with party walls. Failing that you have to take action first through building control (ring the bco and ask his opinion!) or via solicitors.

The tone of your questions seem rather "sharp" Triggaaar, am I misreading that as well as it kind of puts me off bothering to respond?

cheers
Bob

ps
I've just completed major work including extension on my sons "new" victorian terrace house. There are party walls either side, one of which has been built over for a neighbours extension. The dozy kitchen fitters had put an extractor outlet projecting over and facing out over my sons property, clearly a breach though apparently they asked verbal permision from the then elderly owners. that permision if obtained in the first place stood for nothing and the BCO really wasn't interested. Istead of going through the legal channels or just blocking it off I had a chat with the neighbours and offered to re-directed it. Cost only a few quid and ensured my son enjoys a good relationship with them.
Doesn't matter what you currently think about your neihbour not selling, it could still happen at any time - thats' life.


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## Stimpi (8 Jun 2014)

It is very difficult to make judgements on a boundary wall dispute, miles away from the scene. Statements have been made which are basically correct but until the circumstances are established are not facts. 

Quote, But I can't see why a neighbor would ever have to take your excess water 
Quite common, 60% of the properties on the estate I live on this applies. 

Quote, it’s nothing to do with the council. The council will ensure that the builder (not the owner) has done this in a proper manner including where it drains to. 

Quote, The Party Wall Act gives neighbor statutory rights to do things to party walls including a party fence wall 

Party wall agreements were a London thing till round about 1984 with the demise of the District Surveyors they became National. To give a 2 hour seminar in a few words is impossible. A brief snapshot. An agreement in writing. One of two parties’ can say I am building an extension next to your property this is what I am doing. Discussions follow, agreements made, all put down in writing, agreement lodged. Or:- one of the parties says I am employing a party wall surveyor you can if you wish, its silly to spend money twice on this matter shall we share? Checks to see if a proper surveyor with correct indemnity, Or, I don’t want to share its all about liability I will employ my own surveyor with the proper indemnities and he will look after my interests. 

There are certain inspections in party wall where witness of a process is carried out, e.g. Fire stops or smoke barriers. Building Control can only be present for spot checks they can’t be there to supervise. 

Then there is the fence. The owner of the fence is the one who paid for it. The face of the fence must be on the boundary line. The face of the fence must face outwards. It must not be higher than 2M. The boundary line is usually exactly half way between properties. It must never be encroached on. 

If you think your in the right send a solicitors letter. Check with building control if they inspected.


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## Triggaaar (8 Jun 2014)

Lons":3fkjcu4h said:


> The tone of your questions seem rather "sharp" Triggaaar, am I misreading that as well as it kind of puts me off bothering to respond?


Sorry, just reply to a lot of messages and getting things down bluntly and quickly when I get the chance, I didn't mean to be rude.


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## Lons (8 Jun 2014)

Triggaaar":2jopuzpn said:


> Lons":2jopuzpn said:
> 
> 
> > The tone of your questions seem rather "sharp" Triggaaar, am I misreading that as well as it kind of puts me off bothering to respond?
> ...



That's what I thought and perfectly understandable as you're concerned and wound up about the situation.
I'm sure you'll get it sorted but to avoid escalating costs I'd highly recommend you sit down with your neighbour and discuss it in a calm but firm manner. he won't want mosre expense either and might be more helpful than you think once he realises it isn't going to go away.

Good luck with it

Bob


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## johnny (8 Jun 2014)

Your neighbour may have been unaware of the potential problem at the start of work. Builders unless properly supervised will build their foundations right up to a boundary fence or wall but wouldn't appreciate the implications of that when the roof and eaves and guttering is applied to the wall much later. 

Saying that it sounds to me like you are putting off an inevitable showdown about this issue .
If its an issue now it is going to be a whole lot more of an issue when you come to sell your house.

If your neighbour isn't going to do anything about it now......... he is even less likely to something about it later when the extension is built and finished !.He's certainly not going to knock his extension down in a few years time because it causes you some issues with potential buyers.

You need to resolve this now, not later or its going to nag away at you and worry you and cause you stress and probably ruin the relationship you have with your neighbours .

If its just a few inches why not let him have it in return for him paying for a new boundary fence to be put up which becomes your property and your new boundary line. When finished nobody is going to be any the wiser are they ? 

Its often impossible to determine exactly where a boundary line lies anyway because at the scale they are drawn at on property deeds is so tiny that the pen line is often as thick as a 350mm garden wall or greater.
My advice as a retired Building Surveyor who has handled a lot of party wall agreements and boundary disputes etc is to settle it now, ammicably perhaps with a small trade of some kind or it will cost a lot more later when Solicitors get involved


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## Lons (8 Jun 2014)

johnny":3fr6e67y said:


> Your neighbour may have been unaware of the potential problem at the start of work. Builders unless properly supervised will build their foundations right up to a boundary fence or wall but wouldn't appreciate the implications of that when the roof and eaves and guttering is applied to the wall much later.



Not all builders are so poorly informed johnny and you really shouldn't generalise.

Small companies with a reputation to protect are usually very careful to ensure they follow the correct practises and stay within the regulations.

It's how I built my business and I know many others of similar ilk.

Perhaps things are different in your part of the world?

cheers
Bob


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## johnny (9 Jun 2014)

yes you are quite right Bob one shouldn't generalise. I apologise


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## Lons (9 Jun 2014)

johnny":3giwhgpq said:


> yes you are quite right Bob one shouldn't generalise. I apologise



Not a problem for me Johnny.

All the TV coverage of cowboy builders and the problems that the bad ones cause don't do businesses like mine any harm at all. All my work is word of mouth, never advertised and have never been short of work in 16 years. Reputation is everything.

cheers
Bob


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