# Riots - Bring on the army



## knappers (8 Aug 2011)

Come on Cameron, let's get this sorted... I know there's no oil to fight over, but you need to deal with these parasitic scum... The police clearly can't cope. Water canon, rubber bullets, tear gas - bring it on... Or ring Obama and see if you can borrow Chuck Norris.

Si.


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## Noel (8 Aug 2011)

Suppose because as it's in GB it's big news. Something similar happens on a regular basis over here, rubber bullets, water cannon, bit of gunfire, the odd blast bomb. Suppose we're used to it, we generally refer to it as "a bit of bother" rather than riots or "a war zone" as the media seems to be fond of describing things over the past 2 or 3 days.
Just looked at the aerial footage from Peckham, Lewisham etc, a few burning building etc but not a fire engine in sight. Odd.
Certainly plenty of people about taking advantage of unofficial opening hours for PC World, Currys etc.........


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## jimi43 (9 Aug 2011)

I wonder how long it will take before vigilante groups of concerned sensible people take to the streets and knock seven bells of excrement into some of these youths!

This is just the start of the rot...watch this space....

J


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## adidat (9 Aug 2011)

Noel":ywwgyth9 said:


> Suppose because as it's in GB it's big news. Something similar happens on a regular basis over here, rubber bullets, water cannon, bit of gunfire, the odd blast bomb.



where are you noel?

adidat


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## Noel (9 Aug 2011)

Sunny NI (that's a lie,it's raining...).
As Patrick Keilty said earlier tonight: "Thinking of heading back to Belfast to get away from all this rioting".......


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## adidat (9 Aug 2011)

Noel":2t4bp7yf said:


> Sunny NI (that's a lie,it's raining...)



i will come clean, somerset is not always sunny i lied

sorry

adidat


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## studders (9 Aug 2011)

jimi43":3r8k6xg3 said:


> I wonder how long it will take before vigilante groups of concerned sensible people take to the streets and knock seven bells of excrement into some of these youths!
> 
> This is just the start of the rot...watch this space....
> 
> J



Not too long I hope. They are just using the supposed 'tensions' as an excuse.
That said, I do feel the Police have been given too many powers under supposed 'anti-terror laws', and have experienced first hand the arrogant attitude and abuse of those powers from some officers. Something which creates resentment of the Police Force as a whole, so they are doing their colleagues no favours.


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## Pvt_Ryan (9 Aug 2011)

Noel":26jvwozk said:


> Suppose because as it's in GB it's big news. Something similar happens on a regular basis over here, rubber bullets, water cannon, bit of gunfire, the odd blast bomb. Suppose we're used to it, we generally refer to it as "a bit of bother" rather than riots or "a war zone" as the media seems to be fond of describing things over the past 2 or 3 days.
> Just looked at the aerial footage from Peckham, Lewisham etc, a few burning building etc but not a fire engine in sight. Odd.
> Certainly plenty of people about taking advantage of unofficial opening hours for PC World, Currys etc.........



A bit of bother, nah, we refer to it as a good time.. 

I had to laugh some kid with a gun gets shot so they riot... er he had a gun, so he pretty much got what he deserved. Had he not been shot but shot some other kid then there would have been a storm on why weren't the police there and why he had a gun and how society has failed etc etc.. 

Lets face it as with in NI the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't.


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## defsdoor (9 Aug 2011)

You mean they are all black ? Something that no TV presenter dared mention.

It's certainly created a massive backlash - race relations in this country have been set back decades after this.

Judges need to sentence those caught immediately though - a 8-10 year sentence for nicking an ipad will certainly make the rest of the yobs think twice.


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## Max Power (9 Aug 2011)

and you're surprised :shock:


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2011)

Bring on the army! Brilliant. Who remembers that there were riots in Belfast and we had to send the army in in 1969!

What I want to know is what drives these people - not looking for excuses, but explanations.
"The Great Wave" is an interesting read.

It's not all bad news - bankers and directors are still paying themselves record breaking bonusses, property prices are holding up well, cuts are beginning to bite and keeping taxes down, inequality is rising and the wealthy are being able to accumulate more wealth, we are going to spend less on health, education, welfare, universal free education is a thing of the past, the Murdochs are going to get away with it, MPs are still claiming expenses, the Met police corruption will be whitewashed, the Bullingdon boys are showing their mettle, tuition fees will keep the riff-raff out of higher ed.
So don't worry - part of the population have never had it so good and their future is bright.


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## Tom K (9 Aug 2011)

Jacob":34am4yii said:


> What I want to know is what drives these people - not looking for excuses, but explanations.
> "The Great Wave" is an interesting read.



They are mostly driven by a need for a "Blackberry" or the latest trainers


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## Benchwayze (9 Aug 2011)

Tom K":1bjll3aj said:


> Jacob":1bjll3aj said:
> 
> 
> > What I want to know is what drives these people - not looking for excuses, but explanations.
> ...



And without the inconvenience of paying for them. 
What vision this scum must have.


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## bugbear (9 Aug 2011)

Tom K":1bq6ygps said:


> They are mostly driven by a need for a "Blackberry"



not needed; the rioters/thieves already have them - it was reported (R4) that they were being used to coordinate the event.

BugBear


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## tomatwark (9 Aug 2011)

In the US the National Gaurd would be brought in and shoot any looters on sight.

Although I am not a big fan of the USA this is one thing they have got right.

Maybe the army should be brought home from the oil and mineral wars they are fighting.

Tom


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## Dibs-h (9 Aug 2011)

tomatwark":2pzpja8v said:


> In the US the National Gaurd would be brought in and shoot any looters on sight.



I'd certainly second that! 

It's bordering on a pineapple take - stand back, don't do anything, claim the overtime (the Police that is) and then the cost for the legal aid and finally the incarceration. No wonder the country is upto the eyeball in debt!

Dibs


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## RogerS (9 Aug 2011)

tomatwark":3vay7jm2 said:


> In the US the National Gaurd would be brought in and shoot any looters on sight.
> 
> .....
> Tom



Thirded.


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## gnu (9 Aug 2011)

I say bring in the farmers as they are able to control herds of marauding animals also get in private security in as they can control huge unruly mobs at pop fetivals.


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2011)

So it's "scum want blackberries, shoot the scum"? Simple!


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## woodbloke (9 Aug 2011)

RogerS":1f7s18m4 said:


> tomatwark":1f7s18m4 said:
> 
> 
> > In the US the National Gaurd would be brought in and shoot any looters on sight.
> ...


So what happens if an innocnent party gets caught up in it?..and _accidently_ gets shot. Think very carefully about what you're advocating here because the sactioned use of lethal force on our own population makes us no better than Syria or Gadaffi. There are better non-lethal methods to control a rabble like this - Rob


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## Dibs-h (9 Aug 2011)

Given how litagious a society the US is, I suspect that a series of warnings are given - news reports, loud hailers, warning shots and then as soon as the 1st individual is shot - the rest run like hell!

I wouldn't for one minute advocate dealing with rioters\looters ala Assad\Gadaffi.

Given the probability of how it would be dealt with in the US - the chances of an innocent person getting shot is quite high, if they are wearing a balaclava or have their face covered (or not), kicking a shop window in and helping themselves to goods. Otherwise remote.

Dibs


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## studders (9 Aug 2011)

Why don't we have Water Cannons for these situations, or do we but they are not being used?


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## Noel (9 Aug 2011)

studders":5dkleoap said:


> Why don't we have Water Cannons for these situations, or do we but they are not being used?



Nearest ones are in Belgium or NI. Mrs T May has basically said England is much too good too use water cannon -
_"I don’t think anybody wants to see water cannon used on the streets of Britain because we have a different attitude to the culture of policing here. We police by consent and it depends on that trust between the police and the public.”_


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## woodbloke (9 Aug 2011)

Dibs-h":1ajihpwu said:


> ... the chances of an innocent person getting shot is quite high, if they are wearing a balaclava or have their face covered (or not), kicking a shop window in and helping themselves to goods. Otherwise remote.
> 
> Dibs


...and therein lies the nub. How do you calculate what those 'remote' chances are? If your son or daughter was by chance caught up in it, say coming home from work, would you like the police to open fire? I suspect not, so please, let's not go down the sactioned use of lethal force route. To me, it's the same sort of arguement regarding capital punishement. We had the inate good sense years ago to ban it as there was always the remote chance that the wrong man would get hung...and it did happen, more than once - Rob


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## RogerS (9 Aug 2011)

woodbloke":2u34pgw2 said:


> Dibs-h":2u34pgw2 said:
> 
> 
> > ... the chances of an innocent person getting shot is quite high, if they are wearing a balaclava or have their face covered (or not), kicking a shop window in and helping themselves to goods. Otherwise remote.
> ...



But the thing is Rob that these days with DNA evidence, the chances of a miscarriage of justice are much less.

Regarding lethal use of force, the nub seems to me quite clear. Hoodie, kicking in a window, walking out of the window with a TV? How many innocent people do that?


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## JMcK (9 Aug 2011)

studders":3cncacx7 said:


> Why don't we have Water Cannons for these situations, or do we but they are not being used?



The Met have had, may still have, water cannon. They were evaluated and it was decided not to use them. Apart from political considerations there are practical ones too. Superficially attractive they are not all they are cracked up to be. The main problem with them is that at an effective pressure (which can cause injury) they use all their water very, very quickly and then become a liability as a vulnerable vehicle.

The use by other nations appears to be less so nowadays.


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## woodbloke (9 Aug 2011)

RogerS":2d5lw8vu said:


> Regarding lethal use of force, the nub seems to me quite clear. Hoodie, kicking in a window, walking out of the window with a TV? How many innocent people do that?


Rog, looking at the pics on the Beeb, I can feel my blood boil just the same as you. Don't forget, I work with and am surrounded by blokes wearing 'the green' (even as I type this) and the rioting images are on the plasma screens right in front of me. But...not once have I heard them say that sending in the army (or even the use of lethal force) is the right way to do it. At best, the use of lethal force is a natural 'knee jerk' reaction where other considerations haven't been adequately thought through. The last time the British Army was deployed in anger on the streets of the capital was the Seige of Sydney Street some one hundred years ago and I think that it's the very last option that HMG would opt for - Rob


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## Anonymous (9 Aug 2011)

prevention is better than cure, the use of lethal force i don't condone, but rounding up the culprits and thrown into hard labour camps i do!!

After looking at the pics it clearly shows that it is a mix of races involved.


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## Doug B (9 Aug 2011)

If the original peaceful protest started because of the shooting of one bloke, how is shooting more going to calm the situation?

I accept things are now nothing to do with that original protest but i cannot see how more violence will solve anything, more police on the streets is what was need straight away, thankfully from the sounds of things that will be happening tonight.


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## woodbloke (9 Aug 2011)

Doug B":1l81bavl said:


> If the original peaceful protest started because of the shooting of one bloke, how is shooting more going to calm the situation?
> 
> I accept things are now nothing to do with that original protest but i cannot see how more violence will solve anything, more police on the streets is what was need straight away, thankfully from the sounds of things that will be happening tonight.


Absolutely agree Doug - Rob


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## Dibs-h (9 Aug 2011)

Civility can be measured in how a society treats those worse off or vunerable. Not how it lets itself be walked over by such individuals.

Sanctioning lethal force is not a knee jerk reaction but the statement to a group of society that seem to be becoming more brazen, that a line has been crossed and there is no going back.

My 2c worth

Dibs


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## studders (9 Aug 2011)

Noel":2hq53wud said:


> Mrs T May has basically said.....
> _"I don’t think anybody wants to see water cannon used on the streets of Britain because we have a different attitude to the culture of policing here. We police by consent and it depends on that trust between the police and the public.”_



Yeah right'o Mrs, good to see you're in touch with reality. :roll:


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## woodbloke (9 Aug 2011)

Dibs-h":3ngrizct said:


> Sanctioning lethal force is not a knee jerk reaction but the statement to a group of society that seem to be becoming more brazen, that a line has been crossed and there is no going back.
> 
> Dibs


Appreciate it's your 2 euros worth, but you appear to have a short memory. Remember 'Bloody Sunday' and the ensuing aftermath? This was the last time that the British Army opened fire on the general populace (for whatever reason)...are you saying that you *really* want to live with the possible consequences of the same sort of event in mainland UK? God help us if you do - Rob


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## studders (9 Aug 2011)

Meant to add, the riots are now right on my doorstep. :shock: 
The traders around here are dreading the worst tonight. Some want to form vigilante groups to defend their shops, others, mostly the major stores, have gone home early.


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## Dibs-h (9 Aug 2011)

woodbloke":4ug1vman said:


> Dibs-h":4ug1vman said:
> 
> 
> > Sanctioning lethal force is not a knee jerk reaction but the statement to a group of society that seem to be becoming more brazen, that a line has been crossed and there is no going back.
> ...



Rob

What I'm saying is that standing by and watching them loot and burn, in the hope that CCTV got their face and you'll pick them up afterwards is not exactly sending the right message, and I certainly aren't advocating anything like NI over in the mainland. 

But how the US National Guard deal with looters might not be such a bad idea. IIRC they don't open fire en-masse and gun laws are far more liberal there than here. 

If segments of society realise that you will turn the other cheek and not do anything - they aren't likely to say please & thank you as they help themselves.

Dibs


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## Doug B (9 Aug 2011)

Dibs-h":2zc8hapx said:


> But how the US National Guard deal with looters might not be such a bad idea. IIRC they don't open fire en-masse and gun laws are far more liberal there than here.




I think the fact that hand guns can be legally owned in America by the populous makes there use by the police & army more acceptable to that populous.

I accept we need train gun officers but i wouldn`t want every police officer armed with a gun, that`s a very slippery slope.

At the end of the day it`s the law that needs to deal with these thugs & the police are the best people to enforce that. From the sounds of things it`s already happening with arrests & confiscation of stolen property, i just hope they receive long sentences.


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## RogerS (9 Aug 2011)

woodbloke":wsfxscko said:


> RogerS":wsfxscko said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding lethal use of force, the nub seems to me quite clear. Hoodie, kicking in a window, walking out of the window with a TV? How many innocent people do that?
> ...



There was an army guy on R4 this lunchtime advocating lethal force!


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## tomatwark (9 Aug 2011)

I was not saying go in and machine gun them as would happen in other countries.

The point is, if you threaten them with being shot for looting, alot of the hangers on would disappear.

There is no easy solution, everyone has its problems, but remember there are innocent people being burnt out of their homes and businesses by a small group of people who are out of control and know that if they are caught they will get 20 hours community service halved for good behavior.

This country has become to soft and it is time that things are toughened up for these thugs.

Tom


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## Dibs-h (9 Aug 2011)

Doug B":3bzf2eze said:


> I think the fact that hand guns can be legally owned in America by the populous makes there use by the police & army more acceptable to that populous.


I can see what you mean.


Doug B":3bzf2eze said:


> I accept we need train gun officers but i wouldn`t want every police officer armed with a gun, that`s a very slippery slope.


Dear God - I would not want that. Every plod with a gun & given there are some who you wonder how on earth he\she got the job - that's a nightmare state!



Doug B":3bzf2eze said:


> At the end of the day it`s the law that needs to deal with these thugs & the police are the best people to enforce that. From the sounds of things it`s already happening with arrests & confiscation of stolen property, i just hope they receive long sentences.



The law is almost an ass. Sentences are already being reduced as prisons can't cope - 12 months sentence, out in 3. The thing with wanton looting and burning - what percentage will never be caught? 

I've would never advocate indiscrimate shooting - but carefully targeted shooting, just the 1 or 2 would have a phenominal affect on the looters\arsonists.

These acts that we are seeing have nothing to do with the Duggan chap - this is now feral kids seeing that the Police can't do anything, so lets take advantage.

Yes there are individual issues, liberties, etc. but does society (as a collective) not have rights? Does an individual not trade some of the individual rights to acquire some of the benefits of being in a society? Least of all a lifestyle on the social (never having worked a day in their lives).

We can agree to disagree - folk stealing to feed or eat, something has gone wrong with society, but looting\burning for kicks or for the latest phones\etc., shooting the little [email protected] would solve a lot of problems, immediately and future.

Dibs


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2011)

Dibs-h":3dha29i8 said:


> ....
> .....- but carefully targeted shooting, just the 1 or 2 would have a phenominal affect on the looters\[email protected] would solve a lot of problems, immediately and future.
> 
> Dibs


Would provoke protest marches and riots everywhere, and quite right too.

Nobody sees to want to consider causes. Not easy, but they are there, and more complicated than a lust for blackberries.

Here's a good line I just spotted: _Social security works both ways _


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## nanscombe (9 Aug 2011)

Funny.

It seems only a few weeks ago we were condeming someone for shooting fellow citizens.

This week we are wanting someone to do exactly that.

Strange world.


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## barkwindjammer (9 Aug 2011)

The 'Arab spring' has arrived in blighty.


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## Noel (9 Aug 2011)

JMcK":44dc9vtj said:


> studders":44dc9vtj said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't we have Water Cannons for these situations, or do we but they are not being used?
> ...



Totally inaccurate, current models seem to work well and they are armoured.

As for those that advocate the use of lethal force, really worked well the last time the British government authorised it, didn't it?
And with the authorities record of recent shooting incidents (table leg or rifle? Terrorist or visiting South American?) it's a recipe for disaster.


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## nanscombe (9 Aug 2011)

But then again emerging from a shop, which closed hours ago, with electrical appliances in your arms is rather incriminating. :shock: 

The only other question ... What sort of ammunition to use. :evil: 

Oh no, that was another thread.


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## doctor Bob (9 Aug 2011)

One of my clients lost his shop last night, 35 years of hard work gone up in smoke. Mindless lazy f%*kwits who think smashing up there community is a laugh.

I normally err on the side of caution, but after driving near Enfield today, I can see vigilantes will be on the street looking to protect their communities and who can blame them.

Would you watch someone smash your house or business up and take no action, I certainly would take any necessary action.

Very easy for Jacob to take the high ground, rural derbyshire, wonder what action he would take if someone smashes up his lifetimes work or burnt his house down etc etc.


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## wyldpuss (9 Aug 2011)

> Very easy for Jacob to take the high ground, rural derbyshire, wonder what action he would take if someone smashes up his lifetimes work or burnt his house down etc etc.



Easy! Read his posts, he stand and debate their reason with them! :roll: 

Roy.

Digit on a borrowed lap top.


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## jordec66 (9 Aug 2011)

I got summoned off site today (wolverhampton) . The police were patrolling and suggested we leave , they blocked
one end of the road and told us there was a possibility of not getting out! I should have protested and said hang on a minute , don't be too hasty , I need to complete the day , otherwise the dole fund will have a shortfall and they might not get they're money!.


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## wyldpuss (9 Aug 2011)

Jacob wants reasons, With the number charged now in three figures he might get some.
My list for the most popular reasons is as follows.

My client just went along with crowd m'lud.

We've got nuffin to do.

We woz bored weren't we.

And top of my hit parade...
I was simply making a protest at the injustices that exist in modern society m'lud and the horrendus gap between those who have and the have nots.

Roy. (Digit)


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## Noel (9 Aug 2011)

Hope it's only the high milers.....LR to the rescue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14468005


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## RogerS (9 Aug 2011)

Noel":2rykwtu7 said:


> JMcK":2rykwtu7 said:
> 
> 
> > studders":2rykwtu7 said:
> ...



Those examples, Noel, are not valid here. As others have said...walking out of a close shop with a TV in your hand. No question. No debate. Bang! End of.


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## Dibs-h (9 Aug 2011)

Jacob":1rkzhzgh said:


> Dibs-h":1rkzhzgh said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



A couple of looters\arsonists shot after having been warned and warning shots fired, somehow I don't think you'd get any marches nor riots.

Joe Public would be grateful for a quick end to the matter.

As for Social Security works both ways - sounds like bloody extortion to me = "Pay me handsomely to do sweet FA & live a better life than you & we won't destroy your lives\livelihoods!"

Dibs


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## mailee (9 Aug 2011)

For years now this country has been getting softer and softer. All the do gooders have been chipping away at society and our governments have taken too much notice of them as it was the politically correct thing to do (Flavour of the month and more votes for their future) Our police have had their hands tied for a long time now too what with all the red tape they have to go through. After the terrorist attacks in London the police did get a pretty free hand in this field but have had a lot of powers taken away in the everyday crimes we seem to have had an increase in over the last few years. Yes people are angry with our government wasting our money along with the bankers but violence is not the way to show our anger, voting is and what our society should be about. Give the police back their powers stop giving money to other countries and wasting it on somebody elses wars and get the money back into our country and spend it on the things that really do matter before we have anarchy on the streets, (Although it could now be too late) :evil: Aorry for the long rant but it really pineapples me off!!


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2011)

I'm as horrified as anybody and I'd be just as pineappled off as anybody else if it was my shop etc.
But there's more to it than thieving and shooting. Most of the looting is after the event it seems with just "ordinary" people following the mobs.
Cameron needs to think a bit more about "the big society"


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## barkwindjammer (9 Aug 2011)

Well to be fair, to show that "we're all in this together" he's flown back from Tuscany !


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## Noel (9 Aug 2011)

> Those examples, Noel, are not valid here. As others have said...walking out of a close shop with a TV in your hand. No question. No debate. Bang! End of.



That's a shameful statement. So you're quite happy perhaps seeing a 12yr old or a 14 yr old shot dead? Or perhaps a 10 yr old dragged along by his or her elder peers. May as well shoot everyday shop lifters too, burglars breaking into to steal from empty properties. You really think that's a just action for smashing windows and nicking goods? Sure it's theft, criminal damage, arson. May as well shoot the stone throwers too.


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## RogerS (9 Aug 2011)

Noel":1gzqrg15 said:


> > Those examples, Noel, are not valid here. As others have said...walking out of a close shop with a TV in your hand. No question. No debate. Bang! End of.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a shameful statement. So you're quite happy perhaps seeing a 12yr old or a 14 yr old shot dead? Or perhaps a 10 yr old dragged along by his or her elder peers. May as well shoot everyday shop lifters too, burglars breaking into to steal from empty properties. You really think that's a just action for smashing windows and nicking goods? Sure it's theft, criminal damage, arson. May as well shoot the stone throwers too.



I think a 12 year old might struggle to carry out a heavy plasma screen and so wouldn't be in harm's way. I think that you might be missing the bigger picture. It's not 'just smashing a window etc'. It's mob rule. Anarchy.


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## Benchwayze (9 Aug 2011)

Jacob":3e6qf4i4 said:


> I'm as horrified as anybody and I'd be just as pineappled off as anybody else if it was my shop etc.
> But there's more to it than thieving and shooting. Most of the looting is after the event it seems with just "ordinary" people following the mobs.
> Cameron needs to think a bit more about "the big society"




Politics Jacob? 

I am pineappled off with politics. So leave it out please. I won't blame any particular party, but the obnoxious, adenoidal Milliband is going to bleat on about this for some time to come. So if you don't mind, I don't need it here.

Perhaps you'd like to read this and think about another point of view besides your own. 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talkin ... 21728.html


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## nanscombe (9 Aug 2011)

Noel":2pb7pruf said:


> That's a shameful statement. So you're quite happy perhaps seeing a 12yr old or a 14 yr old shot dead? Or perhaps a 10 yr old dragged along by his or her elder peers.



*IF* the penalty for looting was to be shot on sight, which it currently isn't, or even to be beaten up by citizens protecting their neighbourhood then



> David Cameron: "If you are old enough to commit these crimes, you are old enough to face the punishment"


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## Karl (9 Aug 2011)

One of the first posts on John's link

"The signs were there alright, they started when we prevented schools from disciplining pupils and therefore erroded respect that children have for any authority when they were just infants, it was perpetuated when we prevented parents from disciplining their children and reinforced the belief that children can coast through life with few consequences to their actions. It continued when we erroded the value of family and created social support networks that enable people to live comfortable lives without ever having to work, entirely supported on the state with no obligation to take any responsibility for their actions or their life. It gets worse every year as this underclass of undereducated, under diciplined irresponsible individuals continues to have more an more children born into a ghetto culture where underachievement is celebrated, criminality is glorified and parental responsiblities are ignored and abdicated to the state.

Even now some people are queuing up to blame those from outside of these communities for the crimes that are being committed within them, further absolving them of responsibility and giving credence to their vacant and tired claims of victimisation. These are feral children who've been let down by their parents and overindulged by cloying liberalism that confers endless rights with no sense of responsibility. The left seems to be tripping over itself in its desire to flaggelate the law abiding citizen over this, its easy to blame the law abiding as then you don't have to deal with culprits, or admit that perhaps you've been wrong for decades on how to deal with these sort of social problems. If you balme everyone else then its easy to conclude that this is a problem that's too big to fix, instead of taking the pragmatic view of dealing swiflty and harshly with those that are guilty of committing these crimes and protecting the innocent law abiding tax payer from their vile, self destructive behaviour."

Excellent!


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## studders (9 Aug 2011)

I think shooting is a step too far. What annoys me is that when an unpopular foreign leader visits the UK ALL the stops are brought out to keep any protesters well away from them; hundreds of Police are used, Riot Squads are used, it seems no expense is spared. Protesters are Kettled to be better controlled and bear in mind that in some instances the protesters number in thousands.
So WHY do I see TV footage of the Police just standing around doing bu gger all?


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## doctor Bob (9 Aug 2011)

OK lethal force is OTT........... how about if the police catch 'em, chop their pineapples off, i'd even donate my very blunt gluing up chisel for the purpose


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## LuptonM (9 Aug 2011)

LOL at how the oldies resent the youth. I really don't care if they tear London apart


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## Benchwayze (9 Aug 2011)

How far is Ringwood from London?


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## doctor Bob (9 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":2iteaq3w said:


> LOL at how the oldies resent the youth. I really don't care if they tear London apart



What a well thought out social statement........ who says the youth of today have no conscience. I wait with baited breathe for your next post


----------



## Lons (9 Aug 2011)

Noel":27th7jcy said:


> That's a shameful statement. So you're quite happy perhaps seeing a 12yr old or a 14 yr old shot dead? Or perhaps a 10 yr old dragged along by his or her elder peers. May as well shoot everyday shop lifters too, burglars breaking into to steal from empty properties. You really think that's a just action for smashing windows and nicking goods? Sure it's theft, criminal damage, arson. May as well shoot the stone throwers too.



Need a curfew - why are 10 / 12 / 14 year olds on the street at night in the first place? These kids are now criminals and tomorrows adult society. :shock: 

Bet you weren't on the streets at that age Noel !

The media, with their graphic details have informed the other yobs around the UK that the police are stretched and can't respond for hours so they know what to do and how long they have before they have to run.
I see little difference between these actions and terrorism. they are putting innocent peoples lives at risk and deliberately targeting busnesses who they see as "the rich". Too stupid to see that these companies provide jobs which they are now destroying.

They need locking up but in reality will get an ASBO :? 

We're all doomed I say - doomed #-o


----------



## Muina (10 Aug 2011)

Let's just all be thankful, at least it hasn't spread to Sheffield yet, we can't risk the Clifton factory being burned down!

Anthony


----------



## LuptonM (10 Aug 2011)

doctor Bob":3suo23x0 said:


> LuptonM":3suo23x0 said:
> 
> 
> > LOL at how the oldies resent the youth. I really don't care if they tear London apart
> ...



Personally I believe that civilization needs to be destroyed and then rebuilt, but in a much more thoughtful manner for any thing to really improve. The complexities of current law provide one too many barriers for any real change

Anyway, London's a concrete waste land- wouldn't u rather have a nice forest there or a picturesque meadow? Saying that I may end up there working in investment banking next year. However I bet u guys blame the bankers, whereas you should be blaming the politicians worldwide since they allowed the financial markets to have such an effect

The media is very selective in what they show. They like to dramatize things and don't always show a balanced view


----------



## LuptonM (10 Aug 2011)

Benchwayze":w9ve5tk6 said:


> How far is Ringwood from London?


85 miles as the crow flies


----------



## Tom K (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":21gpxk9s said:


> doctor Bob":21gpxk9s said:
> 
> 
> > LuptonM":21gpxk9s said:
> ...



Statements like this certainly make you sound like a merchant banker or perhaps a very naive and silly young man.


----------



## studders (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":35g4fzjw said:


> I may end up there working in investment banking next year. However I bet u guys blame the bankers,



What, for being greedy, selfish, thoughtless, underhand, deceitful, etc. etc ? Never really given it a thought. With your attitude to the destiny of others though, you should do well.


----------



## Tom K (10 Aug 2011)

Jacob":3h0igmgj said:


> I'm as horrified as anybody and I'd be just as pineappled off as anybody else if it was my shop etc.
> But there's more to it than thieving and shooting. Most of the looting is after the event it seems with just "ordinary" people following the mobs.
> Cameron needs to think a bit more about "the big society"



You are labouring under the illusion that what is happening is some sort of civil protest.
Its not it is wanton destruction to cover theft.
I understand you have your point of view Jacob but you don't work in the middle of it and you would't last five minutes with these delightful poor misunderstood youths.


----------



## LuptonM (10 Aug 2011)

studders":335ymest said:


> LuptonM":335ymest said:
> 
> 
> > I may end up there working in investment banking next year. However I bet u guys blame the bankers,
> ...



U guys don't even know what investment bankers do. U have just jumped on the scapegoat wagon. I doubt u could differentiate between traders and investment bankers. If anything u think them the same. What next, pagans to blame for the next financial crisis?

At least I did not suggest shooting people - inferiority complex much? Thats truly foolish and will just lead to nationwide uprisings and more riots and deaths. I am guessing I can't really win an augment on a forum where the average user is above 60 years of age


----------



## Mark A (10 Aug 2011)

Karl":29zhngip said:


> "The signs were there alright, they started when we prevented schools from disciplining pupils and therefore erroded respect that children have for any authority when they were just infants, it was perpetuated when we prevented parents from disciplining their children and reinforced the belief that children can coast through life with few consequences to their actions. It continued when we erroded the value of family and created social support networks that enable people to live comfortable lives without ever having to work, entirely supported on the state with no obligation to take any responsibility for their actions or their life. It gets worse every year as this underclass of undereducated, under diciplined irresponsible individuals continues to have more an more children born into a ghetto culture where underachievement is celebrated, criminality is glorified and parental responsiblities are ignored and abdicated to the state."



Perfect! Couldn't say it any better myself (that's why I quoted Karl's quote :lol: )

Mark


----------



## Tom K (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":f2q3lvfo said:


> studders":f2q3lvfo said:
> 
> 
> > LuptonM":f2q3lvfo said:
> ...



Shame the username Pike is taken as you are most certainly a stupid boy.


----------



## studders (10 Aug 2011)

Tom K":2d0fsfxc said:


> Shame the username Pike is taken as you are most certainly a *stupid *boy.



Yes, I think that's all that need be said.


----------



## RogerS (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":2rk5aqhp said:


> studders":2rk5aqhp said:
> 
> 
> > LuptonM":2rk5aqhp said:
> ...



Tell me..when you went to schooll (if you went to school) - did they teach you any English? The word is YOU not U - you egregious stupid little t w a t

In any case, I thought one had to be over 4 years old to join this forum?


----------



## doorframe (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":z51p870v said:


> LOL at how the oldies resent the youth. I really don't care if they tear London apart





LuptonM":z51p870v said:


> I am guessing I can't really win an augment on a forum where the average user is above 60 years of age



I fear you'd fare no better even if the average user was under 6! What a clown.


----------



## Benchwayze (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":290ecf80 said:


> Benchwayze":290ecf80 said:
> 
> 
> > How far is Ringwood from London?
> ...




So close? I just wondered. From your statement, you might have been on another planet...


----------



## doctor Bob (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":1kpyz12p said:


> Saying that I may end up there working in investment banking next year.



Good on you, some of those bogs need a good scrub after the bankers have a good lunch, make sure you clean under the rim.


----------



## Jacob (10 Aug 2011)

doctor Bob":3svkrhpg said:


> LuptonM":3svkrhpg said:
> 
> 
> > Saying that I may end up there working in investment banking next year.
> ...


What sort bonuses would you get? Sweep up some coke dust? Big cigar ends? Unfinished champers bottles? I bet you'd never find an accidentally dropped fiver!


----------



## Benchwayze (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":3titnxmo said:


> U guys don't even know what investment bankers do. U have just jumped on the scapegoat wagon. I doubt u could differentiate between traders and investment bankers. If anything u think them the same.



Merchant Banks - Investment Banks. 
There isn't a lot of difference sunshine. 

They operate in slightly different fields, but in much the same manner. They both raise funds. but not necessarily in the same way, or for the same clientele. 

Investment banks raise funds for businesses and governments by registering and issuing debt or equities which are then sold on a market. They focus on the larger organisations.

Merchant banks serve companies that are too big for venture capital firms to deal with, but are still too small to make large public share offering on a major exchange. They place equity privately, with other financial institutions, and in doing so, take large portions of ownership in companies that are believed to have strong growth potential. (I.e., they really do screw their customers over) 

So while Investment Bakers screw over the massive Companies and some Governments, Merchant Bankers screw over the smaller fry. 

Merchant or Investment they both spin money, mostly for themselves, and both could be used in Cockney Slang.


----------



## Benchwayze (10 Aug 2011)

Apportioning blame is becoming academic.

Last night in Birmingham, some lunatics deliberately drove at, and murdered people on the pavement; people who were trying to protect their property. 

I think this scum has interpreted Cameron's little speech as a challenge.

This is getting beyond debate, way, way out of hand and something has to be done. 

I don't want to see the Army on the streets, nor anyone shot, out of hand, but this really is getting desperate.


----------



## tomatwark (10 Aug 2011)

If something is not done in the next day or so I suspect that people getting run over while trying to protect their property will be the least of the problems.

Alot of the ring leaders will be gang members and will have access to guns, and if they decide to use them from amongst a crowd of other rioters what are the police going to do then, a baton charge is not going to stop a bullet.

The thugs are getting more and more confident they can get away with this and will carry on.

It is a small group of thugs organising this over the internet and mobile networks and the rest are following like sheep because they do not know any better.

I hope the ISP's and the phone companies are going to provide the police with the info they need to stop these people and the that the freedom of speach and human rights lot will keep their collective mouths shut and let the police get on with their job in stopping this from spreading.

Tom


----------



## Scouse (10 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":n61mis5h said:


> I am guessing I can't really win an augment on a forum where the average user is above 60 years of age



Possibly; however you have been quite happy for the average 60 year old user of the forum to answer your dumb, often glaringly obvious questions in the past. 

It's also difficult to preach a message of anarchy, destroy and rebuild society etc, and in the same breath aim for a career in investment banking! silly person.

Grow up and take a long hard look at yourself.


----------



## Anonymous (10 Aug 2011)

To lupton

I know exactly what investment bankers do and it verges on criminal. someone i know hedged a bet on share prices falling in a particular company, and his colleague from another company sold the shares to make this happen, with the 'winnings' of the hedged bet he bought back the shares, so he won twice over, now multiply this by a few thousand people and you get the drift.


----------



## JMcK (10 Aug 2011)

Noel":1ji8pew6 said:


> JMcK":1ji8pew6 said:
> 
> 
> > studders":1ji8pew6 said:
> ...



Thanks for the update.




Noel":1ji8pew6 said:


> As for those that advocate the use of lethal force, really worked well the last time the British government authorised it, didn't it?
> And with the authorities record of recent shooting incidents (table leg or rifle? Terrorist or visiting South American?) it's a recipe for disaster.



Agree.


----------



## MIGNAL (10 Aug 2011)

Just another factor to throw into the mix. When your society celebrate 'personalities' such as Jordan, it's hardly surprising that it loses a lot of it's values. The damn women was on the front page of virtually every Magazine and tabloid for month after month on end. 
Britain now celebrates the super rich, the banal and every other toe rag who is famous for doing absolutely nothing.


----------



## Benchwayze (10 Aug 2011)

MIGNAL":1mum0jr2 said:


> Just another factor to throw into the mix. When your society celebrate 'personalities' such as Jordan, it's hardly surprising that it loses a lot of it's values. The damn women was on the front page of virtually every Magazine and tabloid for month after month on end.
> Britain now celebrates the super rich, the banal and every other toe rag who is famous for doing absolutely nothing.



Not to mention Ronnie Corbett!


----------



## Jacob (10 Aug 2011)

MIGNAL":3dseeqna said:


> Just another factor to throw into the mix. When your society celebrate 'personalities' such as Jordan, it's hardly surprising that it loses a lot of it's values. The damn women was on the front page of virtually every Magazine and tabloid for month after month on end.
> Britain now celebrates the super rich, the banal and every other toe rag who is famous for doing absolutely nothing.


News of the Screws and other bottom feeding press. A continual diet of sh|t and envy p|sses people off.


----------



## rileytoolworks (10 Aug 2011)

Here's why they're bloody doing it T W A T S. http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 560646.stm
Have a listen.

Adam.


----------



## tomatwark (10 Aug 2011)

Aces and Eights":14nqhgpm said:


> Here's why they're bloody doing it T W A T S. http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 560646.stm
> Have a listen.
> 
> Adam.



Camerons Big Society, I think someone in No 10 instead of telling him everything is fine, should perhaps tell him it is F****ed.

What are these kids parents doing, probably waiting for their little darling to bring home a bigger TV so they can watch daytime TV while drinking beer and claiming benefits
Tom


----------



## Benchwayze (10 Aug 2011)

I really don't believe the politicians are in touch. Even after all this, they still don't get the message. 
If they won't see now, they never will.


I'm off. 

TTFN folks


----------



## rileytoolworks (10 Aug 2011)

Wow. This woman really doesn't _need_ these sweets....
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater

Adam


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## studders (10 Aug 2011)

doctor Bob":3fckcg7i said:


> LuptonM":3fckcg7i said:
> 
> 
> > Saying that I may end up there working in investment banking next year.
> ...


You do know how to brighten a chaps day Doc. :lol: 

Err.... actually... that reads a bit suspect.. :shock: 

Ah.. what the 'ell, you know wot I mean.


----------



## jimi43 (10 Aug 2011)

Tom K":1ksjhgh9 said:


> ...............Statements like this certainly make you sound like a *merchant banker* or perhaps a very naive and silly young man.



Is that Cockney Rhyming slang?

:wink: 

Jim


----------



## studders (10 Aug 2011)

MIGNAL":2jymluxx said:


> Just another factor to throw into the mix. When your society celebrate 'personalities' such as Jordan, it's hardly surprising that it loses a lot of it's values. The damn women was on the front page of virtually every Magazine and tabloid for month after month on end.
> Britain now celebrates the super rich, the banal and every other toe rag who is famous for doing absolutely nothing.



Amen to that. It's just another thing that I am totally sick and tired of.


----------



## studders (10 Aug 2011)

Aces and Eights":33jrugq1 said:


> Wow. This woman really doesn't _need_ these sweets....
> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater
> 
> Adam


Look at the faces of the of the people in the photo, all laughing like it's some big joke.


----------



## Noel (10 Aug 2011)

Some interesting pictures on FB:


Will these fit me?
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater As somebody commented, who is the bloke with a badge standing like a school prefect?

And the rest: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 5120316124


----------



## tomatwark (10 Aug 2011)

Just read this on the BBC web site.

David Cameron said every action would be taken to restore order, with contingency plans for water cannon to be available at 24 hours' notice.

Does he not realise that if he brings in the water canon the next day the cleanup people will get very wet and be a bit upset.

The looters will be at home by then playing with their new toys or selling them down the pub.


----------



## steadyeddie (10 Aug 2011)

How can these a***holes say they they are doing what they are doing because they have "nothing" when they are all running around in their £100 trainers & co-ordinating the rioting with their £300 phones. 

Dave


----------



## kmcleod (10 Aug 2011)

Interesting debate,,,my view...

Do we need the army - maybe,,,,,do we need lethal force, only if the situation demands - what is certainly needed is a more 'robust' and 'direct' approach to stopping this, either through force or levels of manpower.

think about this - police in the uk are trained to try and contain riots, then collect evidence to be used in trials of anyone involved, the army's training for public order is more direct, it is to surpress the riot by any means required, doing it quickly and as efficently as possible, and that means inflicting casulaties on anyone who will not disperse or surrender immedialtely.

For public order use of the army is a very heavy and blunt tool, and one that the current crop of politicians are scared to even get close to - but the alternative is worse, and was on the news channels today - large groups of vigilantes looking for trouble, which will escalate and turn into gang warfare.

Either our politican grow some balls and make some hard decisions quickly or there is every chance it could be a very bumpy few months.

Finally, 
Message to LuptonM
- stop being a dick, and critising people just because they are older, at least they have some experience of life and what it takes to survive. Most of us here were around in the 1980's and life was a hell of a lot harder than today, especially for those who beleive that 'respect' is due to them for nothing more than having an atitude.
Respect like experience is earned, and both take time to gain,,,give yourself about 20years experience of life as an adult, and then you can put forth your views without sounding like a muppet.
Plus, 'if' you are attending Oxford uni, and are about to go into 'investment banking' just remember you've had a few very priveledged few years as a student, doing not a lot more than attending lectures, and maybe the odd party or ten, that combined with you route into being a 'banker' is because of family connections rather than merit, will put you firmly in the sights of the very people you seek to applaud.


----------



## rileytoolworks (10 Aug 2011)

kmcleod":2z5rhhsj said:


> Message to LuptonM
> - stop being a dick, and critising people just because they are older, at least they have some experience of life and what it takes to survive. Most of us here were around in the 1980's and life was a hell of a lot harder than today, especially for those who beleive that 'respect' is due to them for nothing more than having an atitude.
> Respect like experience is earned, and both take time to gain,,,give yourself about 20years experience of life as an adult, and then you can put forth your views without sounding like a muppet.
> Plus, 'if' you are attending Oxford uni, and are about to go into 'investment banking' just remember you've had a few very priveledged few years as a student, doing not a lot more than attending lectures, and maybe the odd party or ten, that combined with you route into being a 'banker' is because of family connections rather than merit, will put you firmly in the sights of the very people you seek to applaud.



Well said that man.. =D> =D> =D> =D>


----------



## MickCheese (10 Aug 2011)

I have just read this thread from start to finish.

It seems to me we have two issues here, one is the trouble at the moment the second is much harder to fix and that is the lost generation of youths on these estates.

Cameron talks about them paying for their actions; they have nothing to pay with. They fear nothing because they have no hope, they have no aspirations, and there are no opportunities for them. They are a lost generation and I wonder if it is just too late for them. They have been let down by their parents. Many of them cannot read and write and have had no guidance. Their role models are criminals, drug dealers and gangster rappers. There are extended families in this country where not one person works or has every worked and they grew up knowing there is no hope of work.

I found LptonM's post quite sad really. Here is clearly a young person who has a poor grasp of the English language and a naive simplistic outlook, yet thinks he will be going to work as a merchant banker. The area I work in is full of young people who have real difficulty constructing a clear sentence with correctly spelled words in simple paragraphs. I am no Einstein but I try to write clearly and logically.

We need these youths to be given hope and opportunity long before they get to the age where they can express an opinion by joining a gang, robbing people or dealing in drugs.

So, deal with the disturbances occurring now in a robust and lawful way. Then, start to look at how we are going to give the younger kids some light at the end of the tunnel to stop them turning into the same monsters as their older peers.

Mick


----------



## RogerS (10 Aug 2011)

tomatwark":fnpib4i3 said:


> ......
> I hope the ISP's and the phone companies are going to provide the police with the info they need to stop these people



Unfortunately it's not as easy as that. Many thugs are allegedly using Blackberry Messaging which is encrypted. Now GCHQ may or may not be able to decrypt these..they're not going to tell us. So th only option is the legal route which as can be seen from this article is not exactly easy http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14465546. This was all drafted for fear of the police et al going on fishing expeditions. Well, given where we are now, I for one wouldn't mind it at all if they were given unfettered access.




tomatwark":fnpib4i3 said:


> and the that the freedom of speach and human rights lot will keep their collective mouths shut and let the police get on with their job in stopping this from spreading.
> Tom



But it won't happen because of the Human Rights twits...who can shoulder a large part of the blame as to where we are now.


----------



## RogerS (10 Aug 2011)

tomatwark":1iosf5m2 said:


> .......
> 
> Camerons Big Society, I think someone in No 10 instead of telling him everything is fine, should perhaps tell him it is F****ed.
> 
> .....



It was F****ed before Cameron took over.


----------



## newt (10 Aug 2011)

Some chap on the radio suggested spraying them with dog mess (just the thought makes me feel ill) he said there is plenty and it could be watered down. Then some one else said it would conflict with human rights as they could catch something. I think they were both serious and they sounded sober.


----------



## tomatwark (10 Aug 2011)

The only human rights these people need is to make sure that they get a 10 years in prison, in a 6 by 6 cell with a bed, one blanket, a bucket in the corner, a couple of meals a day and medical care if they need it.

NO, TV, ciggies, mobile phone, internet access etc as these things are not human rights, but luxuries they can do without.

Tom


----------



## Scouse (10 Aug 2011)

A bloke on the radio up here suggested the police shoot them with paintball guns filled with the stuff banks put in exploding dye packs, which can't be washed off; easy to identify later.


----------



## RogerS (11 Aug 2011)

I offer this rather excellent comment from Dave Wickard, Minnesota, in response to Max Hasting's rather well-balanced article here

As our world slides into the great darkness built and maintained by liberalism, only those of us remaining from an age of decency will mourn its passing. There is little to protect us from ourselves. A generation without morals or civility is an entree we have ordered from the menu of modern liberalism. We cannot act surprised when the waiter brings us the selection we have ourselves chosen.


----------



## MIGNAL (11 Aug 2011)

I suppose we can all go back to the non liberal darkness of 1642!


----------



## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

RogerS":3p2i19b8 said:


> I offer this rather excellent comment from Dave Wickard, Minnesota, in response to Max Hasting's rather well-balanced article here
> 
> As our world slides into the great darkness built and maintained by liberalism, only those of us remaining from an age of decency will mourn its passing. There is little to protect us from ourselves. A generation without morals or civility is an entree we have ordered from the menu of modern liberalism. We cannot act surprised when the waiter brings us the selection we have ourselves chosen.


100% nonsense. 
You don't expect anything intelligent from the Daily Mail, especially not on this issue, the DM being a consistent rabble rouser and agent of division and hatred.
Let's face it, the DM and the rest of the silly person press are loving every minute of it.


----------



## MIGNAL (11 Aug 2011)

We've been having riots for hundreds of years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Scholastica_riot

Sleepy Oxford, all over a bit of the amber nectar  

The first recorded riots that I can find go back to the Roman empire. 
Throughout history there have been huge numbers of riots, especially taking into account the relatively lower populations of previous centuries. Crikey! That's at a time when communications were pretty slow. Throw in a mass media, mobile phones, the internet and I doubt that anyone would have survived past the 17th century!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots


----------



## RogerS (11 Aug 2011)

An oh-so predictable response, Jacob. Surely you can do better?


----------



## Richard T (11 Aug 2011)

What was more effective; 16,000 coppers or a spot of rain?


----------



## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

MIGNAL":sb1gz8sc said:


> We've been having riots for hundreds of years:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Scholastica_riot
> 
> ...


What "The Great Wave" says is that disturbances are nearly always related to real material issues with something as a trigger e.g. the storming of the Bastille following on from peak bread prices ("let them eat cake" etc).
The current round (rain stop play) will be no different, though it is difficult to know the precise causes without the benefit of hind sight. 
Can have a guess though; bankers bonusses in spite of their abject failures, directors record breaking pensions, corrupt press, police, politicians, a culture of greed and amorality at the highest levels, the desperate fight to keep taxation low (i.e. to evade contributing to society), all set against rising unemployment and cuts, impossible rents and house prices, low wages, the dismantling of the NHS and state education, are bound to be part of the equation.


----------



## defsdoor (11 Aug 2011)

So basically - everything is to blame ?

Bu not that these people have no respect, no morals and no fear of consequences.


----------



## RogerS (11 Aug 2011)

Jacob":1jy52jzc said:


> .....
> Can have a guess though; bankers bonusses in spite of their abject failures, directors record breaking pensions, corrupt press, police, politicians, a culture of greed and amorality at the highest levels, the desperate fight to keep taxation low (i.e. to evade contributing to society), all set against rising unemployment and cuts, impossible rents and house prices, low wages, the dismantling of the NHS and state education, are bound to be part of the equation.



Or maybe none of these, Holy Cows though they may be to you, Jacob, and responsible for everything from the Plagues of Egypt to my ingrowing toenail.


----------



## MIGNAL (11 Aug 2011)

defsdoor":11omk4el said:


> So basically - everything is to blame ?
> 
> Bu not that these people have no respect, no morals and no fear of consequences.



If you are referring to the Politicians, the Press, the Bankers then I entirely agree. I guess they thought themselves invicible. You know the type: we are so important and superior that we can do what the hell we like. In other words: no respect, no morals and no fear of the consequences.
Sound familiar?


----------



## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

Interesting Guardian item here. Society run on greed and looting - from the top.
Those who think the graunaid is biased should have a look at todays issue. There are articles blaming parents, and "entitlement culture", which should please yer average DM reading dullard! 
I call that balance!


----------



## Benchwayze (11 Aug 2011)

Richard T":3lncc6rd said:


> What was more effective; 16,000 coppers or a spot of rain?




=D> =D> =D>


----------



## barkwindjammer (11 Aug 2011)

defsdoor":84erwbhm said:


> So basically - everything is to blame ?
> 
> Bu not that these people have no respect, no morals and no fear of consequences.



Jacob is right
Its the best educated, most priveleged, and most affluent that hold the rudder for this country, they have been vested with the responsibility to mark our course, where are we now, Treasure Island ?.
Why should the scum of this country assume responsibility for its failings when the big wigs can and regularly dodge accountability ?. If anyone has not seen this coming for the last decade or two then they are blissfully out of touch.


----------



## nanscombe (11 Aug 2011)

Jacob":397an1z5 said:


> What "The Great Wave" says is that disturbances are nearly always related to real material issues with something as a trigger e.g. the storming of the Bastille following on from peak bread prices ("let them eat cake" etc).
> The current round (rain stop play) will be no different, though it is difficult to know the precise causes without the benefit of hind sight.
> 
> Can have a guess though; bankers bonusses in spite of their abject failures, directors record breaking pensions, corrupt press, police, politicians, a culture of greed and amorality at the highest levels, the desperate fight to keep taxation low (i.e. to evade contributing to society), all set against rising unemployment and cuts, impossible rents and house prices, low wages, the dismantling of the NHS and state education, are bound to be part of the equation.



Or possibly ...



> I'm bored. :-k
> 
> Let's have a bit of fun by goin' on the rob. There's so many of us they'll never get us all. :twisted:
> 
> Just shove it on eBay an' buy me another pair of Nikes. Either that or it'll pay for me Blackberry for month or two. \/



Occam's Razor



> simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones



Maybe NuLabour's CCTV has found a use after all.


----------



## Lons (11 Aug 2011)

Jacob":1a35fbzw said:


> Can have a guess though; bankers bonusses in spite of their abject failures, directors record breaking pensions, corrupt press, police, politicians, a culture of greed and amorality at the highest levels, the desperate fight to keep taxation low (i.e. to evade contributing to society), all set against rising unemployment and cuts, impossible rents and house prices, low wages, the dismantling of the NHS and state education, are bound to be part of the equation.



Yebut....... you've only got the part you want to concentrate on Jacob.

The people affected by the issues you raise are the hardworking families already stretched to the limit by the irresponsible spending of previous governments and now being intimidated and losing their jobs as these criminals target business premises (the rich) for personal gain.

The riots are very likely highly organised by a core of individuals and probably politically motivated. Todays technology and media thirst for the dramatic makes it very simple to goad these sheep (idiotic morons) into mindless action whilst they sit back laughing.

The issues you mention are serious and some of them stink to high heaven but the majority of the people involved in the riots are not affected by the prices and cuts. Do you really think that they are the first to sit and watch or read about what the politicians are doing, current interest rates, house price trends the NHS or education. Many of these yobs will never have been employed and have no wish to be as they receive free benefits, pay no rent, get free prescriptions dental treatment and even furniture if they wish. All their time is their own to socialise, drink and work in the black economy (often theft or drug related). 
They are not at all phased by the possibility of a prison sentence as it is not the deterrent it should be and it's highly unlikely they would imprisoned anyway. They have to go through the process of ASBOs, tags, fines (never paid) and repeated offences before that happens.

They are the product, not only of todays government and society but of the extreme liberal attitudes, do gooders and human rights medlers of the past 30 years. It's gone too far when you see very young children on the street, backchatting their parent and other adults and saying "can't touch me, I'll report you to the social" :shock: No one wants to return to the dark ages but looks to me like it's here anyway. 

The perpetrators steal because they can and only direct and like for like action can stop it IMO. The softly softly approach just does not work and is one of the reasons we are in this mess.

My father was a miner and I grew up on a council estate as part of a large family, we were poor as were many of our neighbours. They helped each other, doors were not locked and nobody worried about being robbed or mugged. If we were being a bit too noisy on street corners and an adult asked us to keep it down a bit, that's exactly what happened...... we were taught respect. My parents allowed us freedom but insisted they know where we were, who with and we had specific deadline to be home in the evening. Weren't allowed out on schooldays until homework was completed.

Some of my family still live on these large estates. One in particular in a very bad area where perhaps one in 20 has a working family member and numerous are 1 parent, usually single mother families. A huge openly criminal element and police no go area at times. He has managed to raise his 3 children with moral values he can be proud of. Certainly indicates to me where the problems lie.
One of his neighbours for example has 4 kids by 4 different fathers, The 2 teenage daughters now have followed their mother by similar action to get their own council house and that is the common attitude. They believe they are entitled to be "kept" by the state - BY US

Gripe over - feel better now - off for a lie down though.

_PS - never read the daily mail in my life BTW_
Bob


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## RogerS (11 Aug 2011)

Lons...absolutely spot on, mate.. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Only slight difference of opinion in that many shops etc that were torched were your typical small businessman/owner.


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## MIGNAL (11 Aug 2011)

But what has chaged Lons? Read some history! Nothing to do with wishy washy liberals of the last 30 years. . . 

Oxford Riots of 1355: Over 90 dead.

A riot of 1517.

Within a few hours approximately a thousand young male apprentices had congregated in Cheapside. The mob freed several prisoners who were locked up for attacking foreigners and proceeded to St Martin le Grand. . . 

As soon as More had calmed them, however, the inhabitants of St Martin started to throw stones, bricks, bats and boiling water from their windows. . . 


Spitalfield Riots:

Riots among the Spitalfields weavers were common. Any decline of prices, or opposition in trade, would lead to violence. 
An Act was passed in 1765, making it a felony punishable by death to break into any house, or shop, with the intent to maliciously destroy, or damage, any silk in the process of manufacture. The 'cutters' continued rioting in 1767, 1768 and again in 1769; attacking workshops and wounding any who stood in their way.

I could continue. . . .


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## tomatwark (11 Aug 2011)

Just watched a bit of the debate in parliament.

What a total waste of time and tax payers money, we have just spent alot of tax payers money in expenses so the MP's can waffle on and take no real action.

Cameron says there is no money, so he has to cut the police.

If he grew a pair of balls and withdrew the troops from the various wars he is fighting, stopped giving money to other countries and told europe that until they stop moving parliament every 6 months we are not giving them any either he would be able to start to sort the problems out.

But he is only intersested in the next election.

I bet if they had ransacked Witney in Oxfordshire the army would have been sent in.

What a load of pineapples.

Tom


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## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

MIGNAL":35mo6jz2 said:


> But what has chaged Lons? Read some history! Nothing to do with wishy washy liberals of the last 30 years. . .
> 
> Oxford Riots of 1355: Over 90 dead.
> 
> ...


 :lol: 
We had the Pentrich Revolution just down the road.


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## MIGNAL (11 Aug 2011)

This one was supposedly a jolly good toff riot. Between a few Royalty lot and those in Parliament, whom very recently looted some of our money.
Of course they weren't happy to thrash it out amongst themselves. They had to call in a huge number of peasant (yobbo) types from the various noble (council) estates dotted up and down the land.
Great number of dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War


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## DaveyP (11 Aug 2011)

The one thing we learn from history, is that we don't learn from history.

But with past riots there seems to of been a purpose.. an aim or a goal, a common enemy to vent the anger against.

The looting (now called burglary), arson, muggings, criminal damage are mindless attacks by mindless individuals who don't give a flying **** about anything or anyone.

I say slot em.


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## RogerS (11 Aug 2011)

tomatwark":14kax0l5 said:


> Just watched a bit of the debate in parliament.
> 
> What a total waste of time and tax payers money, we have just spent alot of tax payers money in expenses so the MP's can waffle on and take no real action.
> 
> ...



Tom, I'm not too sure what you expected to hear. There is no Magic Bullet - I wish there were. With regard to the police cuts, the police themselves admit that only 12% of their time is actually 'active' thanks to the box-ticking mentality that labour foisted on us over the last ten years. So cutting the other 82% will more than make up for any cuts.

On the broader front, we get the old chestnuts brought out time and time again. 'It was Thatcher's fault' etc etc. It might have been...it might not. But successive Governments and in particular the last lot have nibbled away at any sort of sanction against bad/unruly/loutish/criminal behaviour. So if I were David Cameron, what would I do?

1) Scrap all the red tape that the police and other organisations like social services have to contend with. Cut anything that smacks of a box-ticking mentality
2) We can't have a commonsense debate on resolving the problems in our society unless we :

a) get rid of this millstone of Political Correctness where people are afraid to speak out lst they be accused of being racist
b) ban solicitors and lawyers being able to advertise and also carry out no-win-no-fee cases - reviewable once commonsense is back and people take responsibility for their own actions
c) health and safety only applies to the workplace, building sites etc. Not to parks where someone is scared a branch might fall off a tree so they chop them all down

3) Repeal the Human Rights Act which is way too much slanted in favour of the antagonist. Review it in later years once commonsense is back.

4) Bring back corporal punishment in schools. Review it once troublemakers start to take responsibility for their own actions. Ditto allow parents to smack their kids.

5) Bring back the birch for certain offences such as vandalism...to be carried out in public in the community where the vandalism took place

5a) Anyone charged and found guilty of an offence under the age of sixteen then their parents are also sentenced alongside them. If it's a single parent family then all steps should be taken to find the 'other' parent so that they too can be sentenced. 

6) Get rid of ASBO's as they are seen as a Badge of Honour. Instead, put some meat into Community Service and make them wear coverings that delineate the fact that they are a criminal. 

7) Get rid of everyone on the Sentencing Guidelines Council who to a man (and woman) have single-handedly destroyed any sort of sanction in the penal system. They are the ones for the pathetically low sentences given out as they set the guidelines that judges and magistrates should follow.

8 ) Take into account the affect on the victim when sentencing the criminal.

9) Prisons. No TV unless they are for educational purposes. More study and education facilities. Food...basic. No games, Nintendo's etc. Introduce a work scheme and make the prisoners earn their keep. Install a mobile phone blocker so they can't use those smuggled phones. No remission unless the prisoner signs up to and follows sincerely a programme of education and rehabilitation. Put funds into this scheme. Once out of prison, give them more support to get a job. If they end up in prison again then double the sentence. Try the education and rehabilitation programme again. Once out of prison give them more support to get a job and stay in it. If they end up in prison again then that's it. Heavy labour prison. 

10) Drugs. Free issue. With the money saved from fewer insurance claims for theft to support the habit, from fewer demands on the NHS from mugging victims, introduce more rehab centres. That will cut drug-related crime and what would gangs have to fight over?

11) TV. Soaps. Love to ban them but that's probably a step too far but change the editorial line to be about 1 miilion percent less confrontational.

12) Footballers. Maximum wage £100k a year. Ditto bankers and anyone else in finance.

That'll do for starters. All those behind me..all together now...Vote For Roger


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## MIGNAL (11 Aug 2011)

Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.


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## tomatwark (11 Aug 2011)

I heard exactly what I expected to hear.

I just think the money could have been better spent.

*RogerS for PM =D> =D> * 

Tom


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## RogerS (11 Aug 2011)

MIGNAL":3505kd2k said:


> Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.




OK..dead easy to denigrate it. What do you propose?


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## studders (11 Aug 2011)

I think it's high time being sent to Prison was a punishment rather than an Inconvenience. No TV full stop, no computers, computer games, personal radios or making calls from communal phones. They can receive monitored calls but not make any. No free education, that costs money so why should they get it when many law abiding people don't? They should be made to work eight hours a day like the everyone else has to and only receive credits to buy 'luxuries' etc.
I know many will say that prison doesn't work when used as a punishment, so what? It clearly doesn't work as a means of rehabilitation either; as for being a deterrent, that's a joke. 
Thens there's the cost, if going to prison meant _real _deprivation, loss of liberty and rights then it might make many think twice about breaking the law in the first place. That will cost us all less in the long term. 
Make sure that people who commit offences deemed too 'minor' for a prison sentence are made to carry out worthwhile work in the community, and make it obvious to everyone who can see them what they are doing, nice yellow suit with OFFENDER front and back. I know a chap who was given community service, he laughed and joked about it, said it was pathetic, even managed to nick lots of the protective clothing they get issued with! Make them pay for their own damn protective clothing, make them work, not just 'turn up' for a laugh.
Think about the cost of giving drug addicts free sterile needles so the darlings don't infect themselves. What do they do with the used needles? Toss them away so other people risk getting infected plus cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands a year clearing the damn things up. Scrap it, now.


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## Digit (11 Aug 2011)

Without wishing to get involved in any pointless debates with out left wing I would like to make a series of practical observations.
Many years ago, when I was flogging insurance, 'civil unrest' was excluded from any claims.
I accept that that may have changed, if not, those small businesses that were serving the communiy will be faced with no means of recouping their losses. Indeed they may find themselves financially responsible for some of their stock that has not yet been paid for. They may also face continued payments for rent. Many leases are 'fully repairing', thus they will have to meet the cost of repairs before they can even get out of the lease.
Many small businesses run on an overdraft, I doubt that the banks will let them off the hook.
Also many busines people will be personally resposible for all losses, thus any assets, such as their homes, will also be forfeit.
All so some pratt can get a cheap TV! 

Roy.


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## Karl (11 Aug 2011)

My understanding is that the tax payer will ultimately be footing the bill for the damage caused.


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## Digit (11 Aug 2011)

Based on past experience Karl two things will happen. Firstly, the compensation will fall far short out that which is necessary, and secondly, by the time it is paid out many small businesses will have gone under.

Roy.


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## JMcK (11 Aug 2011)

RogerS":1b53ld50 said:


> MIGNAL":1b53ld50 said:
> 
> 
> > Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.
> ...




You missed out public executions. :roll:


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## tomatwark (11 Aug 2011)

Digit":25jc8qma said:


> Based on past experience Karl two things will happen. Firstly, the compensation will fall far short out that which is necessary, and secondly, by the time it is paid out many small businesses will have gone under.
> 
> Roy.




That's what happened to a lot of farmers with the TB outbreak and it will certainly happen this time as well.

The other point is a business renting their premises may find their insurance company pay out for the stock but then find the landlord dragging their feet over the rebuilding.

In my workshops I insure the contents but my landlady insures the buildings. 

I also suspect there will be cases the landlord pockets the compensation and then sits on a plot until the market is better and sells it for development.

Tom


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## studders (11 Aug 2011)

JMcK":2azzp8xn said:


> RogerS":2azzp8xn said:
> 
> 
> > MIGNAL":2azzp8xn said:
> ...



No, I think we aired that and decided.. no, well not just yet anyway.


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## JMcK (11 Aug 2011)

studders":timp7np3 said:


> JMcK":timp7np3 said:
> 
> 
> > You missed out public executions. :roll:
> ...



Very liberal.


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## Benchwayze (11 Aug 2011)

MIGNAL":ncygk69x said:


> Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.



Only a little bit, and for the proper reasons.


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## MIGNAL (11 Aug 2011)

Yes. It's all gone to pot. Not like the good old days when folk had proper morals


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## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

A bit more sharia law and a bit less do-goody liberal nonsense IMHO


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## barkwindjammer (11 Aug 2011)

With his mandate for prison and offender reform

Studders for *PM*


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## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

RogerS":nryc1dae said:


> MIGNAL":nryc1dae said:
> 
> 
> > Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.
> ...


It is! So much so I can't really be bothered. :lol: 
One detail - the top limit on wages. Instead I'd have very high progressive tax rates up to 90% or more at the top end. Let people earn as much as they can but then let's take a lot of it back to put back into society. And much higher death duties and much higher minimum wages.


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## Digit (11 Aug 2011)

Out of curiosity I wonder how many people would work for 10% of their wages less NI etc?
MPs?

Roy.


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## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

Digit":3sj9o8qs said:


> Out of curiosity I wonder how many people would work for 10% of their wages less NI etc?
> MPs?
> 
> Roy.


Surely an incentive to work harder? 
There would be bands - only 90% above say £100k? Perhaps 95% for unearned income?


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## Digit (11 Aug 2011)

Sounds like a pretty poor incentive to me. Also not all people are paid on their output, thus working harder would net them nothing, not much of an incentive there either.

Roy.


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## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

£100k per annum is about £50 per hour. 10% of this is £5 per hour. Slightly lower than the minimum wage - but that's only for earnings above £100k. So if that's not an incentive for a particular individual it means someone else gets the work (at £50 per hour!!) and we could reduce unemployment at the same time! win win!!


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## Lons (11 Aug 2011)

Jacob":13oe2p4m said:


> One detail - the top limit on wages. Instead I'd have very high progressive tax rates up to 90% or more at the top end. Let people earn as much as they can but then let's take a lot of it back to put back into society. And much higher death duties and much higher minimum wages.



#-o Now why hasn't that been thought of before?
In one fell swoop, remove any possible incentive to work hard to advance a career and as you won't need one you don't need an education either. Just think of the savings and no teachers!
No reason for anyone to take a risk and build a business so no jobs except for "the state" as the only employer who will provide everything from matchbox flats where people can be monitored and controlled to soup kitchens so no need to cook or wash up. No freedom of speech, one offspring per family. Everybody lives for free (benefits) - Utopia :-" 

Now it needs a name - sounds like an "ism" and maybe some kind of "comune" :-k


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## Digit (11 Aug 2011)

> reduce unemployment at the same time! win win!



Eh! If first chap is removed from dole queue to replace second chap and second chap signs on where's the reduction in unemployment then?
Great system!
BTW, it was tried by one H Wilson. High earners moved abroad, history. 

Roy.


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## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

Lons":25fweyrm said:


> ...
> Now it needs a name - sounds like an "ism" and maybe some kind of "comune" :-k


How about "civilisation"?


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## Digit (11 Aug 2011)

According to Wiki there now some 195/196 uncivilised countries in the world.

Roy.


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## Anonymous (11 Aug 2011)

Jacob":2108i5jd said:


> RogerS":2108i5jd said:
> 
> 
> > MIGNAL":2108i5jd said:
> ...



Jacob 

You are a tit


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## barkwindjammer (11 Aug 2011)

Steering the post back on course


Its the best educated, most priveleged, and most affluent that hold the rudder for this country, they have been vested with the responsibility to mark our course, where are we now, Treasure Island ?.
Why should the scum of this country assume responsibility for its failings when the big wigs can and regularly dodge accountability ?. If anyone has not seen this coming for the last decade or two then they are blissfully out of touch.


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## Digit (11 Aug 2011)

> You are a tit



But he's happy with it! :lol: 

Roy..


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## barkwindjammer (11 Aug 2011)

[/quote]

Jacob 

You are a tit[/quote]

Referee ! 

I recently received a warning PM from CHJ for calling 'Woodbloke' - 'Woodenbloke', which is fair enough I suppose, however of late this forum has become littered with blatant profanities and direct insults, the LuptonM post on stanley chisels par example, now personaly I dont give a Peanut Butter what anyone calls me in here, I swear like trooper in real life, its the 'consistency-fail' that bothers me, I tried to highlight this last night by using Karls ' w a n k e r' picture as a retort back in his direction, which was petty of me yes, in the hope that at least one Moderator would have interjected-but no. This place needs a bit of a tidy me thinks.


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## MickCheese (11 Aug 2011)

A little off track but I read something recently that nobody in a company should be paid less than 10% of the highest earner.

So there is an incentive for those at the top to look after those at the bottom.

Doesn't seem to unreasonable to me.

Mick


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## Jacob (11 Aug 2011)

barkwindjammer":1xuq5jh6 said:


> mark270981":1xuq5jh6 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob
> ...


No worries. I don't mind being called a tit, as long as it is only by a twit.


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## Noel (12 Aug 2011)

Time to move on.


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