# Got any recommendations for squares?



## el_Pedr0 (13 Dec 2021)

I'm about to do a wardrobe build and am thinking some reliable squares will help. Up to now I've had to get by with a cheapo screwfix combination square (though found a video on this forum today that will help me get it square - yay!), and a set of lidl squares which aren't really square.

Seems like you can fork out a lot in the pursuit of perfection, but I want to strike the right balance between price and squareness.

Anyone got any good experiences?

As a starter for 10, I've seen these on Amazon: Faithfull FAIESSET4 4 Piece Engineers Square Set 50,75,100,150 mm (2 Inch, 3 Inch, 4 Inch, 6 Inch) in Wooden Presentation Case : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools. Some mixed reviews in there.


----------



## Ttrees (13 Dec 2021)

I've got a soba 150mm square like that, for a tenner in axi.
Could be the same ones but stamped, which the one I have isn't.
Mine is bang on, couldn't fault it.


----------



## D_W (13 Dec 2021)

vintage hardened - all of the unhardened squares are temporary junk that will get scratched and dinged by anything, and in combination types, slide roughly, get abraded by foreign dirt and deform easily.

Find a combination square with a hardened *head*. The rules are often hardened, almost always. but the heads wear and are sloppy. A hardened head will operate like ice and not wear out, and a used version will generally still be more accurate than a square with an unhardened head, and it will stay that way.

I don't see any right now on ebay.co.uk right now other than those coming from the US. I have two lufkins and a starrett (used tools are common here) and have had a gaggle of other used squares (including starrett, etc,) where the head wasn't hardened, as well as "PEC". the two older hardened squares are more accurate than any of the unhardened, far more accurate and far better working than the new PEC.

As far as the engineer's squares go, get yourself one that is square and checked against a combination square if you want little engineers square, but don't be surprised to find how accurate they are like gambling. an $8 square from india may be dead on, and then some cheesy anodized aluminum version like "incra guaranteed" or whatever they call them will come in a nice box and potentially be far off. 

Friend of mine here got one of the latter, certificate and all. He never seemed to have luck building things square with it so he shelved it, almost unused. He bought a certified starrett square (for enormous money) and the incra square was nowhere close. $100. He bought it because he wanted a large engineer's style square but didn't want to buy an engineer's square because of the cost. I had a three square small set from india that was far more accurate and I think at the time, it was $25 for all three. 

bottom line, if it slides, hardened head used is far better than unhardened new. Anything else, have one square that's true and then check the rest with it and leave it in its case otherwise so that it remains true. If you have a friend with a true square, then you don't need to spend the money on "the true one", just check a cheap square and when you find one that's true, that becomes your true square that you set aside.


----------



## pe2dave (13 Dec 2021)

Considering the use, had you thought of some half inch wood 'clamps' for setting the angles when you glue?
Here (I think)


----------



## D_W (13 Dec 2021)

follow up in case anyone is wondering how if you tell a head is hardened (90% of listings for combination squares say they're hardened, but the sellers are reading the rule - almost all rules are hardened). 

The head on a square will very clearly be marked hardened, either proud of the surface or stamped in (starretts are stamped in, but you'll probably not find starrett or mitutoyo cheap even used as there's too many fanboys). 









Lufkin 12" Combination Square Protractor Center Hardened | eBay


<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Lufkin 12" Combination Square Protractor Center. Set is used but in very good condition. Does have previous owners engravings. Please look at pictures in detail and ask questions before bidding. </p>



www.ebay.co.uk





If you scroll through the pictures, you'll see the "hardened" on the head. 

Someone refinished this one - a more realistic target price in the US for a hardened head and 12" rule for an old lufkin square is about $40. 

A used lufkin hardened head square is better than a low end starrett US made square new with an unhardened head (and a lot cheaper). If you drop or bump the lufkin square, the high hardness head will not deform.


----------



## TheTiddles (13 Dec 2021)

Many options available, I go for what they call engineers squares as they are cheap and plenty accurate enough. If you have a stick, you can check square, just use it across the diagonals, no expensive tools needed.

No matter what you buy, if it’s been dropped once, it might not be square anymore.


----------



## Peter Sefton (13 Dec 2021)

We have a wide range of squares available from iGaiging combination squares to Woodpecker stainless steel squares but our most popular one is the Fisher, I have been using mine for over ten years without fault.









Fisher Precision Engineers Square - 150mm (6")


Fisher are the Square of choice for professional furniture makers who require guaranteed accuracy over a lifetime of workshop use.




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk













iGaging Precision Combination Square 300mm/12" Dual Scale


The iGaging Precision Combination Square 300mm/12" Dual Scale features a heavy duty cast iron stock that is precision ground on all faces and sides for 90 degree and 45 degree angles and with a black sand enamel finish then coupled with a fine quality 300mm/12” satin stainless steel blade and...




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk


----------



## Jameshow (13 Dec 2021)

Bahco squares are great for my level of wood butchering! Not expensive and easy to find!! 

Cheers James


----------



## Cabinetman (13 Dec 2021)

For what your doing, ie 600mm wide marking, I would go for a home made wooden Roubo style, you can plane the working edge to square whenever you want/need to, I recommend not testing it against another square as was stated above— draw a line across a piece of ply etc then turn the square over and compare the lines, remember though, the discrepancy is only half the amount shown. Ian


----------



## thetyreman (13 Dec 2021)

I find old rabone/chesterman squares are good and still reasonably priced second hand, my favourite are starrett though.


----------



## Hornbeam (13 Dec 2021)

When gluing up It is much more accurate to measure diagonals but this only works assuming you have cut everything to the correct lengths


----------



## powertools (13 Dec 2021)

Shinwa


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2021)

Bigger is more accurate and more useful if you are doing big things like wardrobes.
Make your own? 3/4/5 triangle for the right angle but the other angles could be 30/60º or 45/45º. Make one of each? Rail on bottom edge to register against the workpiece


----------



## Sideways (13 Dec 2021)

It's been mentioned above but I would strongly vote "large job needs large square or careful measuring". You can't expect a small square pressed against an edge to give you a line that you can extend for a number of feet. If you're building a big piece, then the "3:4:5" triangle will give you a way to make or mark a large square with a 90 angle. A home made square with sides of 600mm, 800mm and a 1000mm diagonal (or 450, 600, 750mm) might be worth making out of some stable sheet material - even 6mm MRMDF - for the job and for the future.

(Snap !)


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2021)

Sideways said:


> It's been mentioned above but I would strongly vote "large job needs large square or careful measuring". You can't expect a small square pressed against an edge to give you a line that you can extend for a number of feet. If you're building a big piece, then the "3:4:5" triangle will give you a way to make or mark a large square with a 90 angle. A home made square with sides of 600mm, 800mm and a 1000mm diagonal (or 450, 600, 750mm) might be worth making out of some stable sheet material - even 6mm MRMDF - for the job and for the future.
> 
> (Snap !)


Spot on.
And if it's made of wood it's very easy to correct if it's lost accuracy due to wear or damp etc.
I doubt you'd find one commercially for sale anywhere because once seen it's obvious how to make your own from a few scraps.
Woodworkers don't need "engineers" squares but they are worth having as long as you don't spend too much. Bahco are good. Also plenty of second hand choices available.


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2021)

PS Making big things then these good enough for most purposes Minotaur Framing Square 400mm x 600mm


----------



## Jameshow (13 Dec 2021)

I have 1200mm plaster darby what's to stop one making a 800 x400 square? Bolted with nyloc nuts and epoxy between???

Cheers James


----------



## el_Pedr0 (13 Dec 2021)

Excellent advice everyone. Thank you.


----------



## el_Pedr0 (13 Dec 2021)

I hadn't actually been thinking about marking the big pieces with the squares. My mind was more on things like marking mortises and such around PSE. However, your comments make me think that actually a big 345 triangle might be very useful for what I'm about to get stuck into.


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2021)

el_Pedr0 said:


> I hadn't actually been thinking about marking the big pieces with the squares. My mind was more on things like marking mortises and such around PSE. However, your comments make me think that actually a big 345 triangle might be very useful for what I'm about to get stuck into.


Any old square will do just check it out for squareness.


----------



## TheUnicorn (13 Dec 2021)

I asked for recommendations for a affordable and reliable 150mm combi square here a few weeks ago and I had a lot of recommendation for the empire 'true blue' squares which are at a really good price in homebase, I ended up getting a bahco square because of availablity, not aweful, but not brilliant either. most of the time I find myself using a speed square, and for larger pieces a big roofers square (similar to jacob's suggestion above)


----------



## D_W (13 Dec 2021)

thetyreman said:


> I find old rabone/chesterman squares are good and still reasonably priced second hand, my favourite are starrett though.



hardened head starrett and mitutoyo are just gorgeous pieces of gear. 

They are ungodly expensive here in the states, though - even used. My first two starrett combination squares came from old tool dealers. They weren't that expensive (but also not hardened) and in both cases, the dealers said they were "very square". One wasn't, and the other couldn't lock to the same squareness each time it locked down - I don't think the rule matched the head, but the heads were beat. 

My ground pounding about hardened head squares came my way via a professional toolmaker a decade ago. The difference between hardened head and not for anyone who might bump something or induce appreciable wear...the difference is astounding. If there are brands there that were once good and now are just site tools (lufkin is an example here), then sometimes there are good deals. 

I've got a wonderful moore and wright square (big engineer's square) that I found for $16, too, because few people in the states have a clue what the brand is.

and a 24" starrett certified try square (that's decommissioned goods, so it's long past the age where the certification would be meaningful) that was a little bit more than a dollar an inch.


----------



## bp122 (14 Dec 2021)

Although I own a 300mm and 150mm starrett combination squares, I also had bought an old Moore & Wright combination square with a protractor head as well from eBay for £25.

The rule on that was a bit grubby. Then on a separate occasion recently I bought a 600mm square rule only from Axminster factory seconds clear out. The only fault with that was one of the laser marked measurements repeated (can't remember which one)

It didn't matter to me as I wasn't going to use it for measuring from the rule. But now I have a super accurate 600mm combination square for less than £35 delivered. In fact when I keep the starrett and Moore & Wright side by side, the latter has a thicker casting and looks better built. 

So hunt for some auctions on eBay, maybe?


----------



## pgrbff (14 Dec 2021)

Matsui hardened squares are supposed to be extremely accurate, I have the 150mm. Of course they're not particularly easy to get hold of, mine came directly from Japan.


----------



## Misterdog (14 Dec 2021)

el_Pedr0 said:


> actually a big 345 triangle might be very useful for what I'm about to get stuck into.



Probably what the Egyptians used for building the Pyramids, along with a water level...


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

Just to get back to reality - however much you spend, no square will improve the accuracy of your woodwork over the cheapest square you can buy, as long as it is reasonably accurate.
The simple test is a pencil line, turn the square over and draw another next to it and they should be parallel as far as you can tell by looking at it. That's as good as you get.
A combi square is handy because of the scale, but not essential.
My favourite is just an ordinary wood handle steel blade 4" found in the bottom of a box with a lot of other old tools.
I once bought a very cheap £5 combi square because I'd lost the scribing pin from my Rabone combi and the cheap square was perfectly OK. Had a stainless steel blade *- cheaper ones are all aluminium.
PS *it might have been a Magnusson but had no name on it.


----------



## Jonm (14 Dec 2021)

I did have a large folding square which I found useful, portable and easy to store. Something like this





Draper 43761 600mm Folding Square : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools


Free delivery and returns on all eligible orders. Shop Draper 43761 600mm Folding Square.



www.amazon.co.uk





mine was a cheap one and a plastic part broke, it was not an easy fix, must have thrown it away. Perhaps a reasonable quality one would be suitable. (Does anyone have any recommendations for me?)

For outside work I have made a temporary square out of timber lath to suit the job.


----------



## mark w (14 Dec 2021)

If you want a big square for using across wide panels, I've been using a roofing square with a pair of stair gauges, both reasonably priced.


----------



## Johnwa (14 Dec 2021)

Think about a Stanley 12 inch roofers square for larger jobs. I found mine pretty square and dont be worried that its plastic , I've had mine two years now and had no trouble with squareness after dropping it. About £12 from the big river company


----------



## DBT85 (14 Dec 2021)

More than happy with my 300 starrett and dual 150s. Not hardened. What a pauper.


----------



## Ttrees (14 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Just to get back to reality - however much you spend, no square will improve the accuracy of your woodwork over the cheapest square you can buy, as long as it is reasonably accurate.


I'd be looking for something that stays accurate, as in not being able to shift it
a few degrees out.
I'm not sure if I can move the engineers square, not that I've needed to.

I also got fooled before by my carpenters square doing this operation














So glad I bought this engineers one for a tenner,
bought a cheap roofing square for the same money, going to true up any inaccuracies, and get a more refined edge, with a common lawnmower file (single cut teeth or farmers own) file should do the trick for the most part, and a square block of timber to register with the file.

Must look up how cheap you can get a huge 300mm engineers square for,
don't mind if it's not the best, as it should be good enough to deem worth making true in all orientations.

The trad carpenter squares blued spring steel is nice for using as a straight edge, and the end of the blade is also useful for cleaning glue off the bench, should you round the corners of them with a hone,
I've only just done that to mine.
A quick lift or pivot from horizontal to vertical makes a nice _teeny _profile in a few swipes.
A handy tool to have around also.

Tom


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I'd be looking for something that stays accurate, as in not being able to shift it
> a few degrees out.
> I'm not sure if I can move the engineers square, not that I've needed to.
> 
> ...


Your carpenters square is only supposed to square between the brass face and the outer edge of the steel.They are for marking up. Though you could reasonably expect the inside edge to be square too.
If you try to use the back it's very likely to be out


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Dec 2021)

"any recommendation for squares?"

yes: get a square one


----------



## Ttrees (14 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Your carpenters square is only supposed to square between the brass face and the outer edge of the steel.They are for marking up. Though you could reasonably expect the inside edge to be square too.
> If you try to use the back it's very likely to be out


Yes, but the inner reference can move about also.
And the outside is a bonus, nice for any machinery one may have one.
One could take your point of view that an engineers square is two tools in one.

Not doing any site work or anything of the likes, Ive not found a reason to want a carpenters square apart from maybe old shuttering ply or something like that.

Care to give an example of where a trad carpenters would be preferable, apart from comfort in general?

Tom


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> .....
> ]Yes, but the inner reference can move about also.


Not if it's brass?


> Care to give an example of where a trad carpenters would be preferable, apart from comfort in general?
> 
> Tom


Comfort in general is the main one.
If you do a lot of marking up in the traditional way the old fashioned sort are much nicer to use somehow. When I was doing a lot of period joinery I could be marking up solidly for two days or so.
I've got one 4" square with a broad blade which alters the centre of gravity and gives it the advantage of staying sitting flat on the workpiece of you aren't holding it. Doesn't sound much it all adds up!
Wouldn't expect to use one for site joinery particularly, though no reason why not to, and a sliding bevel too.


----------



## Oakay (14 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Bahco squares are great for my level of wood butchering! Not expensive and easy to find!!
> 
> Cheers James


Generally Bahco are pretty good but I did get a little Bahco square once which wasn't right till I cured it. You can pay lots of money for a square that should be perfect or buy cheap and correct it yourself.


----------



## Woodernhift (14 Dec 2021)

My go to square is this one Kinex Engineers' Square DIN875/0 100 x 70mm use it all the time, the longer arm is fairly thick which gives a good bearing surface for marking knives.


----------



## Ttrees (14 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Not if it's brass?Comfort in general is the main one.


I wasn't talking about differential movement of the timbers, say a knot hidden or 
some reaction wood etc 
I was talking about the blade being able to move, like you see with fancy adjustable try squares, but without the locking feature.

1240 × 1240

Tom


----------



## Peter Sefton (14 Dec 2021)

I have never found carpenters squares to be reliable, they are attractive and romantic but not accurate and cost the same as an engineers square. 

If a square isn't square then it's not a square, it's just something cluttering up your bench and confusing the user.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I wasn't talking about differential movement of the timbers, say a knot hidden or
> some reaction wood etc
> I was talking about the blade being able to move, like you see with fancy adjustable try squares, but without the locking feature.
> View attachment 124171
> ...


Never seen one like that. Just somebody's bright idea and most likely a dud.


----------



## Droogs (14 Dec 2021)

For good quality V cost, I would recomend the I-gauging or Fisher kit. Funnily enough, i think Mr Sefton above just might, possibly maybe sells them


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> I have never found carpenters squares to be reliable, they are attractive and romantic but not accurate and cost the same as an engineers square.
> 
> If a square isn't square then it's not a square, it's just something cluttering up your bench and confusing the user.


The new ones seem to be pretty poor. I've only ever bought one and it was out. 
Have had several sliding combis and they've all been OK including £5 one.
The old ones can be good, possibly because they've been tweaked by previous owner. Maybe that's the detail which has gone out of fashion.


----------



## Sideways (14 Dec 2021)

I have one complaint about the usability of all the traditional squares: carpenters, engineering and combination, that is that they won't lie flat on a board. The weight of the body tips them on edge the moment you let go.
Now clearly this doesn't affect their ability to check or mark square, but there are plenty of instances where it would be nice to just let go of the square without worrying if it's going to fall off the plank that you are marking up. A square with a T edge is very convenient in this instance. It's one reason (as well as light weight and all in one construction) why I like the empire framing square. You let go of it and it stays where you put it on the board.
Other, better, tools that offer the same T edge are the Shinwa and lookalikes








Shinwa Stainless Steel Mitre Square 45° 90°


Buy Shinwa Miter Rule 45 90 at Workshop Heaven. Friendly service. Useful advice. Next day delivery option. Lifetime guarantee.




www.workshopheaven.com




And this pattern of square made by Kinex and others








Kinex Hardened Flanged Set-up Square (with base) 100mm


This flanged set-up square from Kinex is a useful tool for setting up machines and other situations where you need to have both hands free.




www.workshopheaven.com




The little one above is too small for general woodwork marking out, but Kinex themselves make these in a wide range of sizes and grades.

Many of us at some point will end up doing a job on trestles or a workmate outside the house. In that instance, it is so easy for small tools to be dropped onto concrete paving and damaged. A square that will lie flat, unattended, is a nice thing to have.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

Sideways said:


> I have one complaint about the usability of all the traditional squares: carpenters, engineering and combination, that is that they won't lie flat on a board. The weight of the body tips them on edge the moment you let go.....


Mine doesn't. I'll dig out a photo. It's one good reason why I like it!
Back in a jiffy!
Yes those empire squares look like a good design though I've never had my hands on one


----------



## mikej460 (14 Dec 2021)

I bought one each of these and they are dead square and cheap! They are not as well finished than the combi squares but I recommend them

Starrett K53M-250-S Try Square : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

Starrett K53M-350-S Try Square : AmazonSmile: DIY & Tools

I also have a Shinwa for smaller work which is also excellent

For accurate marking out I've just bought one of these, as recommended by Dennis at Hooked On Wood and will buy then 760mm version after Christmas (which bizarrely has £10 shipping)

Veiko ts precision woodworking line scriber marking t ruler with pen aluminum alloy hole positioning marking gauge 300/400/500/600/760mm Sale - Banggood.com

Hope this is useful


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

Balancing square. Had it for many years. The blade is actually 6 x 2" so it's bigger than I thought. It's just geometry and weight distribution which makes it balance. 
It's my favourite for marking up. It really is convenient to be able to leave it sitting there, you might be sharpening a pencil etc.
I've probably checked the outer edge and the brass face once or twice and stoned them a bit.
I did have a Crown, similar but didn't balance. Can't find it must have binned it.
If I had to replace it I think I'd look at the Empire Blue pattern. It'd have to balance on 2" stuff - the 7" might be too big. Empire True Blue Rafter Square 7 E2994


----------



## D_W (14 Dec 2021)

If you're looking to perhaps make your own square out of something stable, and be able to check it, I would be willing to bet plastic drafting triangles are far more square on average than most low cost try squares or framing squares. I may have one or two of those that I bought in the past, and I definitely do have a now no-longer certified 24" starrett try (engineer's) square that will tell how close it is. 

I'm a bit perplexed by the desire to by a cheap square first, though, rather than an accurate older square (and then there is no lower limit on how cheap you can go as you can check anything). 

Many of the inexpensive squares will be so bad that you could literally hand file them into better accuracy.


----------



## JSW (14 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> If you're looking to perhaps make your own square out of something stable, and be able to check it, I would be willing to bet plastic drafting triangles are far more square on average than most low cost try squares or framing squares.



Yep, plastic drafting triangles are a great addition to any workshop, mine are from doing my C&G's back in the mid 1970's, still going strong and the go-to for checking internals.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> ....
> 
> I'm a bit perplexed by the desire to by a cheap square first, ......


Because many of the 'superior' offerings are very expensive. Not difficult to understand.
You don't get much for the extra money as a woodworker but I guess an engineer might find them more useful.
PS I was pleased to read Sideways' comment about 'balance' I thought it was just me being a bit obsessive.
'Balance' gets mentioned a lot with hand tools but usually without much meaning.


----------



## D_W (14 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Because many of the "superior" offerings are very expensive. Not difficult to understand.
> You don't get much for the extra money as a woodworker but I guess an engineer might find them more useful.
> PS I was pleased to read Sideways' comment about 'balance' I thought it was just me being a bit obsessive.
> 'Balance' gets mentioned a lot with hand tools but usually without much meaning.



or, you can just be like my English friend here was. Buy something mid market, have no way to check it, have struggles with it trying to do fine work (not everyone is hacking around builder's pine) using it and using it to set up jointer fences, and then later buy something good. 

I don't see any cheap hardened head squares on ebay UK or I'd have posted them here, but there is a gorgeous browne and sharpe set for about 75 pounds. 

that's past my limit of taste, but it isn't a tool that will lose value. 

it doesn't need to be an expensive square, either, just something verifiable (drafting triangle if they're that straight would be just fine. I have trouble believing draftsmen would tolerate a plastic triangle off a hundredth of an inch over a foot). 

The US appears to be an easier place to find vintage measuring stuff. My starrett 24 inch try square is super magic for checking the squareness of big stuff (framing squares, jigs, etc - can't say I've made too many jigs, though - one every five years) - and it cost $1.05 an inch or a little less ($25 - it's probably close to a dollar a pound). 

hardened head combination squares here are $50 - the 6" squares that I have that look like yours, or bigger, are not so square. I don't know if they were dropped or the wood moved or what, but I wouldn't do clean work with them (they're site tools) without correcting them and wouldn't dream of using them for toolmaking.


----------



## Zedgeezer (14 Dec 2021)

I've just spent my evening screwing ang gluing a frame. It had to be square so I clamped the bottom to a workmate then tapped the top until the diagonals were similar. i.e. if you want a true right angle measure the top left to bottom right corners then the reverse measurement and when they are identical you've got a perfect parallel frame.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2021)

Zedgeezer said:


> I've just spent my evening screwing ang gluing a frame. It had to be square so I clamped the bottom to a workmate then tapped the top until the diagonals were similar. i.e. if you want a true right angle measure the top left to bottom right corners then the reverse measurement and when they are identical you've got a perfect parallel frame.


Or a lath with a nail sideways in one end and a pencil mark at the other can be handy for the same job and you don't need a tape. Measuring the diagonals inside the frame from corner to corner.
If you are sash clamping the frame you can pull it into square by skewing the clamp slightly, assuming it won't spring back when you release it.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Dec 2021)

I’ve always used a basic engineers square









Minotaur Engineers Square 200mm | Toolstation


Durable hardened steel blade, precision ground for maximum straightness and accuracy. Right angle measurement.




www.toolstation.com


----------



## Doug71 (14 Dec 2021)

I had three different sized Marples squares, lots of lovely brass and Rosewood on display, they looked great on my tool wall, thing was I soon realised they weren't square  

Like others engineers squares for me now


----------



## Sideways (15 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Mine doesn't...


Very cool Jacob 
I've never seen one like that.
Instantly obvious when you see the wide blade, compact body and proportions.

It's very tempting to try and make a version of that. Interesting machining exercise.
Another project added to the list !


----------



## Jacob (15 Dec 2021)

Doug71 said:


> I had three different sized Marples squares, lots of lovely brass and Rosewood on display, they looked great on my tool wall, thing was I soon realised they weren't square
> 
> Like others engineers squares for me now


You are supposed to tweak them if necessary, not just rush out and buy another!


----------



## Orraloon (15 Dec 2021)

A square is one thing I like to buy in person so I can check it is square before I pay for it


D_W said:


> If you're looking to perhaps make your own square out of something stable, and be able to check it, I would be willing to bet plastic drafting triangles are far more square on average than most low cost try squares or framing squares. I may have one or two of those that I bought in the past, and I definitely do have a now no-longer certified 24" starrett try (engineer's) square that will tell how close it is.
> 
> I'm a bit perplexed by the desire to by a cheap square first, though, rather than an accurate older square (and then there is no lower limit on how cheap you can go as you can check anything).
> 
> Many of the inexpensive squares will be so bad that you could literally hand file them into better accuracy.


I got put on to drafting squares on another forum years ago. I keep a 60* and a 45* in a drawer and have even taken one along to the hardware store to check a square I was going to buy. I was not sure they would let me draw pencil lines on some of their plywood.
Regards
John


----------



## Jacob (15 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> .......
> 
> Many of the inexpensive squares will be so bad that you could literally hand file them into better accuracy.


Many of them are spot on but yes you've got it! Well done!
Perhaps not 'file' - easier on a flat stone or wet wet n dry.


----------



## Peter Sefton (15 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> You are supposed to tweak them if necessary, not just rush out and buy another!



You do talk some rubbish, even you have said your own square isn't square but you are happy to try and convince others they should follow your logical thinking.


----------



## Adam W. (15 Dec 2021)

Bridge City Toolworks have been known to re-tune their bijou joinery squares.


----------



## Jacob (15 Dec 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> You do talk some rubbish, even you have said your own square isn't square but you are happy to try and convince others they should follow your logical thinking.


I bought a modern "Crown" square which was not very square and also didn't balance. Lost it. I think the modern makers have lost the knack anyway.
My very old square in photo probably Marples I've cleaned up and trued the edges - it had been kicked about a bit. No problem. It's a pleasure to use.
Not sure why you have an issue with this but don't worry about it!


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2021)

Orraloon said:


> A square is one thing I like to buy in person so I can check it is square before I pay for it
> 
> I got put on to drafting squares on another forum years ago. I keep a 60* and a 45* in a drawer and have even taken one along to the hardware store to check a square I was going to buy. I was not sure they would let me draw pencil lines on some of their plywood.
> Regards
> John



I was thinking along the same lines...take something to check inexpensive squares in person.

I have a 15 inch or 18 inch empire square that i got at home depot, and it's not that close to square, but its long, so i use it to break down stock. Its off enough that if you're an accurate hand worker who saws drawer sides by hand, it'll give trouble.

Your idea of taking a plastic drafting square is one better, though, as it wouldn't look like you're leaving with one of the store's engineer squares and the plastic drafting squares is potentially larger.

Other drafting stiff such as circle templates and stainless rules is good. Stainless rules, corked or not in the drafting section of an office supply place are usually much cheaper than woodworking suppliers.


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2021)

I needlessly followed my own advice last night and bought a super clean hardened head Brown and Sharpe square off of eBay for $45. Comes with a centering head also, but it's not common that I use one of those. I'll report back on how square it is. It's not just the squareness that's wonderful on that type , but also that the head does not ding easily and even when heavily used, there's little marking or distortion at the edges.


----------



## pidgeonpost (15 Dec 2021)

Crumbs, 63 posts on squares - 64 now! As an amateur I've found the Marples 6" one bought about 50 years ago has served me well, though I sometimes wish I'd bought a bigger one. I do have a small Moore & Wright engineer's square for very tiddly stuff. I was given a decent combination square a few years ago, just like the one Paul Sellers uses, but the Marples one is my 'go to'.


----------



## Jacob (15 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> I needlessly followed my own advice last night and bought a super clean hardened head Brown and Sharpe square off of eBay......


Why?


----------



## TheTiddles (15 Dec 2021)

Have you started to notice the trend? I suspect this is why there are so few people making here compared to how it used to be.


----------



## Jacob (15 Dec 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Have you started to notice the trend? I suspect this is why there are so few people making here compared to how it used to be.


Currently: Total: 1,135 (members: 119, guests: 1,016). Fairly busy?
But yes sorry I shouldn't reply to the usual suspects I'll click the ignore button again!


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2021)

Who are the ones here not making much?

(there's been an exodus over time of the folks who make things, especially the ones who make fine things on the american forums. What drives them off is the constant drumbeat to keep things at the paul sellers and rob cosman beginner level, or a couple of posters who drone on and on about this or that maker that they knew who built a million things with near no tools. The finest maker I have ever met - by miles - was a maker of all things and a toolmaker (there is nobody on this thread who could come close to matching his skill working wood, either - and neither can I nor will I ever be) - the tip to get hardened head squares (Which cost about the same as anything else that's not outright junk) was from him. 

I guarantee good suggestions on used tools aren't what drives away the people making things. 

Getting bogged down in sellers-esque nonsense watching endless videos and making test pieces in pine will certain keep a lot of people from going back after a while, though.


----------



## recipio (15 Dec 2021)

the Nobex range of folding squares are beautifully made and totally accurate. They go up to a 400 mm blade and have a metric scale on both edges - why doesn't every maker do this ! Otherwise I use aluminium drafting triangles which are so much more satisfying to use than the plastic variety.
For small enclosed areas I make 6mm ply squares on the mitre saw.


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Why?



I make things. And I try to make them neatly. You should try it sometime. Not everything has to be sloppy, and not everything has to be a contest to see who can buy the least to make the sloppiest stuff.


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2021)

I just checked an "Alvin" USA plastic drafting triangle (10") against the 24" starrett try square. I would guess (didn't get the feelers out, but I've done enough toolmaking to estimate) that the drafting triangle is probably 1-1.5 thousandths out of square over 10 inches. 

It would certainly be accurate enough for someone to use to make their own squares or to adjust carpenter-grade tools.


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2021)

well, I couldn't get a picture of the alvin, as it's see through and you can't tell that it's against the square of how large the gap. 

The two aforementioned lufkin squares - I think in each case, it took me about a week in the US to wait for an auction to close at a reasonable price. 
Important thing if you follow this advice is to find a relatively rust free square that shows no evidence of the rule being switched out. 











The giant starrett square is a luxury to find at $25, and not something I'd buy if it were expensive (people can be pretty proud of them selling used). The blade of the square is relatively high hardness so it doesn't distort or ding easily. I think starrett would reset a square for you if you had one that needed it, but it wouldn't be $25. 

When looking for combination squares, it's not necessary to find a listing that says the head is hardened, just find one with a picture of the head itself with "hardened" written on it. The listings are unreliable, anyway, as all or nearly all of the rules are hardened and sellers will type anything they can find in the heading. Lots of listings that say "hardened" with beat up unhardened heads. The corners of the hardened heads generally look nice and crisp like this one. 

Having a good hardened accurate combination square for $35 isn't exactly a waste of money. If you strike a line with one of these squares and then cut to it (or set up a machine fence, etc), no part of the work you do will be wrong at the fault of the mark or setup. 

I think I spent about $6000 on steel and wood in the last year, so this kind of purchase here or there seems pretty trivial.


----------



## DBT85 (15 Dec 2021)

So many damned words.


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2021)

Substance is painful for many. 

If you want to have a thread about buying a $100 plunge saw and in a decade ask again if there's a good $100 plunge saw, then there's plenty of content for that type. 

In fact, that seems to have taken over as people who frequent the boards now complain about the lack of makers making things and have no history of posting made items.


----------



## Spectric (15 Dec 2021)

Are there not two types of woodworking square, one to measure and check for square and the other to actually clamp a corner square. 

Another way I have got a box square is to use two lengths of wood cut to a point at each end using 45 degree cuts from the centre and the length from point to point of the true box dimension and fit it in the box, so you end up with a cross piece and then double checking with a square.


----------



## D_W (15 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> Are there not two types of woodworking square, one to measure and check for square and the other to actually clamp a corner square.
> 
> Another way I have got a box square is to use two lengths of wood cut to a point at each end using 45 degree cuts from the centre and the length from point to point of the true box dimension and fit it in the box, so you end up with a cross piece and then double checking with a square.



Yes on the assembly. Try squares are for marking and checking.

I guess welders have giant cast bits (and machinists) to hold heavy stuff and force it to position, but it's better to make mass-heavy bits that you're going to use for alignment in building than it is to try to find purchased stuff that will do that. 

Reasonable accuracy in marking and fitting (there's never too much if it's available at a moderate) makes the subsequent bit (the glue up - the much harder part) easier to get done - and with less clamping and adjustment. I think the woodworking magazine world and clampamania is probably coked up on the idea that you need to clamp the whizz out of everything when you're really hoping to work accurately enough that not a whole lot of what you're making (aside from long joints) needs a lot of force to get a fine glue joint.


----------



## JobandKnock (15 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> (large square) I doubt you'd find one commercially for sale anywhere because once seen it's obvious how to make your own from a few scraps.


Ever seen a 1200mm/4ft folding builders square, Jacob?:






I've had one of those for about 35 or 40 years. It is pretty accurate for what it is, although nowhere near as accurate as a Starrett square, obviously. It has it's uses - mainly for setting out floors, joists, etc and I have used it to set out bars, reception desks, retsil counters, walls, and the like when doing installs, but the handy thing is that it folds up flat and pops into my spirit level case. As you know, you can't always guarantee being able to source clean, straight 2 x 1 PSE on a site to make one up, but my folder is always there in the van. I've seen kitchen fitters using a baby one, about 600 x 600mm for doing set-out and checking carcass squareness, although it isn't a Stanley one



Jacob said:


> Woodworkers don't need "engineers" squares but they are worth having as long as you don't spend too much. Bahco are good. Also plenty of second hand choices available.


Think I'd agree with that - the Bahco ones are accurate enough for a lot of joinery work, but I find they tend to start binding after 3 or 4 years. Rabone ones with cast iron heads werer also good, but it's getting hard to find one at a reasonable price that isn't cream crackered


----------



## Sideways (15 Dec 2021)

I used the same style folding builders square for setting out the walls etc on my garden shed. Good tool. I can't really fault the value either since the accuracy is not at all bad and they are decently built. maybe a little big for a single wardrobe but for a shed or garden building it's great.


----------



## cowtown_eric (16 Dec 2021)

Square are totally essential to the wood butchery process---there ain't no such thing as good'nuf. gotta be square, and proven square. Import squares-even the "machinists type- can be out (DAMHIK)

Honestly, how you gonna set up a jointer or TS fence absolutely square or just wonder why lamentations or joints don't turn up flat or square? Ja you gotta prove it, it really don't take musch cogitation to figure out that the common-place rule of flipping the square to assess squareness ain't really comparing outside edges against inside edges nor asessing straighness (Maybe a previous owner used a carbide scoring tool to cut laminate eh?or just dropped that rafter square a few too many times....)

Nuf said....the knowledge to do it is out there.

Eric


----------



## Jacob (16 Dec 2021)

cowtown_eric said:


> .....Honestly, how you gonna set up a jointer or TS fence absolutely square


"engineers" square for internal and external right angles, or any sort of set square where you use the outside right angle edges.
But for marking up you need a "marking-up square" where you use the outside edge of the steel blade for marking and the inside brass face of the other edge, to register against the workpiece.
They aren't the same beast, which is why people are scathing about the trad marking up square - as we see in this thread - they don't know what they are for and misuse them.
You can mark up with an engineers square of course - sliding combi being most popular, but a proper marking-up square just makes the job a little easier.
You can also check external right angles with the Marples style marking gauge inner faces, which you can't do with the "rafter" square but which is good for marking up if not too big.
Then there are T squares, which are another kettle of fish! How many sorts of square are there?


----------



## Jacob (16 Dec 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Ever seen a 1200mm/4ft folding builders square, Jacob?:
> ......


No I haven't! 
My excuse is that I've always worked in old buildings, where nothing is square to start with.


----------



## JobandKnock (16 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> My excuse is that I've always worked in old buildings, where nothing is square to start with.


No excuse for putting in new stud walls at oddbal angles, though!


----------



## Jacob (16 Dec 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> No excuse for putting in new stud walls at oddbal angles, though!


Used to use a long plumb rule but never got around to a plumb square, though I did have an old nicely made hardwood example kicking around in the shed. plumb rule or a plumb square
The string is vertical however misshapen the bob but it needs room to move. If desperate you could knock one up from a few bits and bobs. Spot the coincidence? 
They used plumb lines for sky scrapers apparently. Just needed a long enough piece of string in the lift shaft with something, anything, tied on the end.


----------



## pidgeonpost (16 Dec 2021)

D_W said:


> well, I couldn't get a picture of the alvin, as it's see through and you can't tell that it's against the square of how large the gap.
> 
> The two aforementioned lufkin squares - I think in each case, it took me about a week in the US to wait for an auction to close at a reasonable price.
> Important thing if you follow this advice is to find a relatively rust free square that shows no evidence of the rule being switched out.
> ...


I had to do a double-take when I saw your photo as I thought 'That's the same as mine', which it isn't, quite. Mine has no maker's name, just says 'Made in England'.


----------



## D_W (16 Dec 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> I had to do a double-take when I saw your photo as I thought 'That's the same as mine', which it isn't, quite. Mine has no maker's name, just says 'Made in England'.
> View attachment 124335



That pattern is pretty close!!


----------



## Tony Zaffuto (16 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> No I haven't!
> My excuse is that I've always worked in old buildings, where nothing is square to start with.


Many, many years ago, I did the same. I was an apprentice and was taught “make it pleasing to the eye”.


----------



## D_W (16 Dec 2021)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> Many, many years ago, I did the same. I was an apprentice and was taught “make it pleasing to the eye”.



My closest foray into that (because I was never a site guy) was that I built my kitchen cabinets without ever checking square in the kitchen (house from the 1950s). I had my dad (who was about 70 at the time) come out as a pair of hands (he's able bodied, though, and was raised on a farm and still fit - he'd outwork a lot of people in their 30s now).

Dad has a friend who was a physics teacher but refers to physics PH.D's as his "colleagues" and then I have to be careful to not laugh out loud .. "well, you'll have a problem when you go out to Pittsburgh to put a kitchen in because what your son doesn't know is that old houses aren't square".

I doubt this guy ever lifted a hammer in his life.

I said "tell ___ I said up yours, it'll never be a problem because none of the cabinets are square in the first place - I made some of them entirely by hand, the rest at least partially".

All of the face frames and solid bits are plane to fit each other as they're being hung (they each had a quarter extra on the sides, way more than they'd need). We fit everything together and I planed cross supports for the countertops instead of shims (just mark each and if one is 3/8" thinner at the back than front then so be it, and my dad said "the fitters spent 10 times as long as that trying to shim the countertops on when we had them installed". 

I said "maybe they should be educators about cabinet installation instead of installers like ___ is a high school physics teacher because being a physicist is out of reach".


----------



## Jacob (16 Dec 2021)

Make your own set square.
Just spotted this on Ebay. About 12 x 7"
Nice piece of hardwood with a spline across the grain to keep it straight.
Decorative curly bits probably make it handy for holding, as well as identifying it as a _thing _not to be thrown away, or it could look like a random off-cut.
Hole in the end for hanging it on the wall.
I might make one for my planer fence and it'd look cool hanging on the wall!


----------



## JobandKnock (16 Dec 2021)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> Many, many years ago, I did the same. I was an apprentice and was taught “make it pleasing to the eye”.


Doesn't work that well when you are forming new bathrooms which have to accommodate pre-cast shower trays, though! Different jobs require different standards


----------



## NewbieRaf (17 Dec 2021)

I’ll blog about it soon because it’s an important subject but just do not do what I did when I was first starting out. I went to Lidl and got a set of squares.

long story short, I was making shaker style kitchen cabinet doors, took me ages to figure out why things didn’t fit perfectly. I was so fusterated I went straight to @Peter Sefton shop and got myself a woodpeckers square which I trust.

there are much cheaper options out there I just couldn’t be bothered looking around.

lesson very well learned


----------



## Peter Sefton (17 Dec 2021)

Thanks @NewbieRaf the Woodpeckers are our best selling squares, I think it's fair to say wether you choose a top of the line Woodpecker or one of our £20 Fisher squares you can be guaranteed accuracy and in the unlikely event you have any issue we will replace it without question.









Woodpeckers Carpenters Square 6"


Woodpeckers Carpenters Square 6" is a perfectly machined combination 90-degree and 45-degree with handles for a physical reference to the edge of the workpiece.




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk













Fisher Precision Engineers Square - 150mm (6")


Fisher are the Square of choice for professional furniture makers who require guaranteed accuracy over a lifetime of workshop use.




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk





Thanks for supporting our shop!

Cheers

Peter


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> Thanks @NewbieRaf the Woodpeckers are our best selling squares, I think it's fair to say wether you choose a top of the line Woodpecker or one of our £20 Fisher squares you can be guaranteed accuracy and in the unlikely event you have any issue we will replace it without question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Astronomically expensive! I thought it said £9.95 which looks reasonable but it's actually £99.95! 


> Fisher Precision Engineers Square - 150mm (6")
> 
> 
> Fisher are the Square of choice for professional furniture makers who require guaranteed accuracy over a lifetime of workshop use.
> ...


Better price but it's an engineers square, good for setting up your fences etc. Woodworkers also need woodworkers' squares. The Woodpecker triangular shape, often called a "roofing" or "rafter" square is better for marking up but there are many more cheaper brands. I doubt there'd be many more expensive brands!


----------



## Distinterior (17 Dec 2021)

I have a few Woodpeckers tools....all are top quality, reliable and although not cheap imports from the Far East, worth the money.

Personally, I dont see the point of cutting up sections of wood and relying on them to stay "Square" when you can buy a square that's guaranteed to stay square.
I've said it before,.....this is 2021, not 1921!!


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

Distinterior said:


> I have a few Woodpeckers tools....all are top quality, reliable and although not cheap imports from the Far East, worth the money.
> 
> Personally, I dont see the point of cutting up sections of wood and relying on them to stay "Square" when you can buy a square that's guaranteed to stay square.
> I've said it before,.....this is 2021, not 1921!!


Woodpecker squares:
_"The handles are milled from solid bar stock and fastened to the body with high strength socket screws. Separating the handles from the blade ensures they can be recalibrated to the blade if knocked out of position."_
They obviously don't expect them to stay square. You don't get much for your £100!


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Make your own set square.
> Just spotted this on Ebay. About 12 x 7"
> Nice piece of hardwood with a spline across the grain to keep it straight.
> Decorative curly bits probably make it handy for holding, as well as identifying it as a _thing _not to be thrown away, or it could look like a random off-cut.
> ...



Lovely!

I'm just wondering of the decorative curly bits are actualy a curve templet.


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Lovely!
> 
> I'm just wondering of the decorative curly bits are actualy a curve templet.


Well yes - french curves from the good old days when everything was curvaceous!








French curve - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Doug71 (17 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Lovely!
> 
> I'm just wondering of the decorative curly bits are actualy a curve templet.



A template for the decorative bits under the treads of a cut string staircase was the first thing I thought of.


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

Doug71 said:


> A template for the decorative bits under the treads of a cut string staircase was the first thing I thought of.


Maybe it is just a template and not intended as a square.


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

The plot thickens.


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

Perhaps it's just a bit of open tread staircase decoration which dropped off?
I think I'll make one anyway, just in case.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (17 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Woodpecker squares:
> _"The handles are milled from solid bar stock and fastened to the body with high strength socket screws. Separating the handles from the blade ensures they can be recalibrated to the blade if knocked out of position."_
> They obviously don't expect them to stay square. You don't get much for your £100!



Or they know that someone will grab it and use it as an impromptu hammer (having refused to spend £20 on a nice Estwing because "that's a rip-off; you can just do that with a rock").


----------



## JobandKnock (17 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Or they know that someone will grab it and use it as an impromptu hammer (having refused to spend £20 on a nice Estwing because "that's a rip-off; you can just do that with a rock").


£20? Estwings have gone up a lot since you last bought one! Just think how many rocks you can get for £40. Wonder if there's a rock out there with a ripping claw?

I think there are a lot of tools around these days which are priced for the "carriage trade".


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (17 Dec 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> £20? Estwings have gone up a lot since you last bought one!



I meant the non-artisanal ones!









Estwing Curved Claw Hammer 20oz - Hickory - Surestrike - EMRW20C


Estwing Curved Claw Hammer 20oz - Hickory - Surestrike - EMRW20C




estwingtools.co.uk





Though I'll happily admit to having one of the leather-disc-handled ones because I needed a hammer and it was so darned pretty. I do actually use it for hitting things though, and it is very good for that.


----------



## TomGW (17 Dec 2021)

Coming from a drawing office background I have plenty of drafting set squares and a full size ‘T’ square. Perspex set squares are readily available in lots of sizes, cheap, 100% accurate and totally unaffected by temperature or humidity. I also have a fairly large Starrett which is excellent.


----------



## JobandKnock (17 Dec 2021)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> Though I'll happily admit to having one of the leather-disc-handled ones because I needed a hammer and it was so darned pretty. I do actually use it for hitting things though, and it is very good for that.


You wouldn't like my "artisinal hammer" at all - titanium head, hickory shaft and makes any Estwing look cheap! Even better, though, it does a lot less damage to my aging muscles and shoulder


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

I have one of these Peddinghaus lægtehammers. I don't think I'll ever wear it out.


----------



## Sporky McGuffin (17 Dec 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> You wouldn't like my "artisinal hammer" at all - titanium head, hickory shaft and makes any Estwing look cheap!



Anything with titanium is good. Titanium is like the metal version of being-a-laser or being-a-subwoofer. Everything is better with lasers, subwoofers, and titanium.


----------



## D_W (17 Dec 2021)

Square 3 as mentioned previously arrived via the postal service this morning. Browne and Sharpe and a little older, but nearly unused. 

Dead square to the giant starrett try square, just as the others and very smooth. 

I beat the drum one more time - I have no clue unless something is really cheap why people buy unhardened combination squares. Just take a piece of mild steel bar or whatever you have that's unhardened and put a screwdriver on a corner and tap with a mallet and then do the same thing with hardened. 

The hardened stuff won't really move, and it wears far slower if it does.


----------



## JobandKnock (17 Dec 2021)

It just doesn't like being dropped onto concrete, Sorry, real world concern both in workshops and on site


----------



## Inspector (17 Dec 2021)

Hmm.... Guess I'm the only one with Starrett, Shinwa, and an assortment of other squares plus a cylinder square and a granite plate to verify them with. 

Pete


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

Probably.


----------



## D_W (17 Dec 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> It just doesn't like being dropped onto concrete, Sorry, real world concern both in workshops and on site



I'm not sure which post this was addressed to, but if you're on a site with concrete - which is going to be near zero of the folks here asking what square to buy, then a beater is a good idea. I have a "Breakdown" square from home depot - $14 or something for an empire combination square with a long rule - great for breaking down boards initially - not very accurate, but if you drop it, no big deal, and if you have something like that on a site, it has no "ebay steal value" (nobody will take it and flip it).

Same with hammers. Being a woodworker, I've gotten half a dozen framing hammers as gifts (because what do people give woodworkers - hardware store chisel sets and framing hammers). The contract who came and did my back room out to a permanent room asked if I had a hammer to pull the porch bits that were there apart and look underneath. He came the next time with his hammer - it had been used 500 times as much as my framers put together and looked like it was worn out three decades ago. 

And he did the neatest work I've ever seen. As much as he loved that beat up hammer, though, I don't think he'd have tolerated seeing someone drop it.


----------



## Peter Sefton (17 Dec 2021)

If I am doing first fix site work I would use my old Rabone Chesterman combination square, it's good enough but not very accurate, for second fix I use my iGaging combination square, more accurate and ideal for square or mitre work. If setting out walls or big stuff I use a roofing square, large piece of ply or 3-4-5 dimensions. 

In the workshop I use my Fisher 50mm for small dovetail work, 150mm for general marking out and 300mm for larger testing or gang marking. My Shinwa 45/90 gets used on veneer work as it lays veneers flat but use my Woodpecker TS 600 for panel and layout work.









Woodpeckers - Square - Precision Woodworking T-Square - 600mm | Wood Workers Workshop


Woodpeckers - Square - Precision Woodworking T-Square - 600mm will help you draw straight, accurate parallel lines in no time - instantly move your pencil from 0mm off the edge to 600mm and be dead-on with no need of a tape measure.




woodworkersworkshop.co.uk





I keep my rosewood carpenters square to remind me of grandad.

Cheers

Peter


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> If I am doing first fix site work I would use my old Rabone Chesterman combination square, it's good enough but not very accurate, for second fix I use my iGaging combination square, more accurate and ideal for square or mitre work. If setting out walls or big stuff I use a roofing square, large piece of ply or 3-4-5 dimensions.
> 
> In the workshop I use my Fisher 50mm for small dovetail work, 150mm for general marking out and 300mm for larger testing or gang marking. My Shinwa 45/90 gets used on veneer work as it lays veneers flat but use my Woodpecker TS 600 for panel and layout work.
> 
> ...


I think you are over-thinking things. You'd easily get by with a lot less kit even if it was all grandads.
Nobody needs a rafter square which costs £100. You wouldn't dare go anywhere near a roof for starters! Not least because if you dropped it it could go out of square. The one piece design without detachable handles is obviously more practical


----------



## Spectric (17 Dec 2021)

With all these MFT tables out there and systems to make them why not use these tools to make some fancy but cheaper squares, use 20mm dogs as the corner pins so it can fold up, I am sure there are plenty of good ideas out there waiting to be unleashed.


----------



## Peter Sefton (17 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I think you are over-thinking things. You'd easily get by with a lot less kit even if it was all grandads.
> Nobody needs a rafter square which costs £100. You wouldn't dare go anywhere near a roof for starters! Not least because if you dropped it it could go out of square. The one piece design without detachable handles is obviously more practical



Sorry, if I am roofing I use a pair of sliding bevels and my Rabone just like grandad did, or the chop saw pre set for ridge cuts.


----------



## Jacob (17 Dec 2021)

Spectric said:


> ... I am sure there are plenty of good ideas out there waiting to be unleashed.


I'm going to make one of these.






Not sure if there are any new ideas to be had.
I thought the £100 Woodfit roofing square was clever though - it has detachable handles, which means that if they become loose they can be re-adjusted ! Smart thinking!  (in case you missed it - if the handles were not detachable they would never need re-adjusting - or "calibrating" as they term it).
You'd have to use a normal square with fixed handles for the re-calibration, but luckily they are a lot cheaper and more reliable.
What will they think of next?


----------



## D_W (17 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I think you are over-thinking things. You'd easily get by with a lot less kit even if it was all grandads.
> Nobody needs a rafter square which costs £100. You wouldn't dare go anywhere near a roof for starters! Not least because if you dropped it it could go out of square. The one piece design without detachable handles is obviously more practical



I think your tendency to bend the topics toward house work that you typically did isn't helpful when someone asks a question like:

>>wardrobe build<<

I read the forums early on in my trials, rarely did anything in a house but saw constant comments from "pros" on knots about doing all kinds of paid work with minimal tools. 

What they didn't do was ever have the consideration to talk about what I was making (either cabinets at the time or starting to get into tools). 

How we get on a thread building wood stuff in a shop to what you would do if you dropped squares from rafters, and the constant desire to make your kit all that anyone needs...it's really got to be a comedy act.


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

If I'm roofing, I use a framing square and the Carpenters Roofing Ready Reckoner just like most carpenters before me.


----------



## Peter Sefton (17 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> If I'm roofing, I use a framing square and the Carpenters Roofing Ready Reckoner just like most carpenters before me.


I am sure my grandad did the same, I know my dads site carpenter did, I was just given the stack of rafters and told to let the saw do the work


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

It's a powerful little book, but I doubt there's much use for it now.


----------



## Tony Zaffuto (17 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> If I'm roofing, I use a framing square and the Carpenters Roofing Ready Reckoner just like most carpenters before me.



Or you could have a Sargent framing square (US brand, years ago), that had rafter length (common or hip) imprinted on the square, per pitch.


----------



## johnnyb (18 Dec 2021)

can I just say this is actually a good thread. It nearly went pear shaped at one point but tempers were tempered! I've learnt some interesting stuff. my main trusted square is a Moore and Wright beautifully made in a box from the sixties. it was gifted from the family( who came over from australia) of a Mr obrien of Swadlincote. he was the last owner of the Fobco drill press company.
it's pretty accurate and slides really well. I sometimes use the centre finder as a saddle square(to hop over corner mouldings)
I do have a few other squares a windsor and Newton mahogany t square with ebony inlay and its amazingly square and beautifully light.


----------



## the great waldo (18 Dec 2021)

Have you got a photo of the windsor and Newton mahogany t square with ebony inlay . I'm just curious to see what it looks like.
Cheers
Andrew


----------



## workshopted (18 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Lovely!
> 
> I'm just wondering of the decorative curly bits are actualy a curve templet.


These came from the tool chest of a gentleman by the name of G. Hallam (Nottingham England 1901. Sadly his tool chest, which was full of tools, was bought by someone who possibly not knowing of its historical interest sold it all off in different lots.


----------



## Jacob (18 Dec 2021)

the great waldo said:


> Have you got a photo of the windsor and Newton mahogany t square with ebony inlay . I'm just curious to see what it looks like.
> Cheers
> Andrew


Fairly common as far as I know.
Ebony edge to the board too. Across the grain but divided into sections in order to allow for movement


----------



## johnnyb (18 Dec 2021)

that's exactly the same as mine!


----------



## TomGW (19 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Fairly common as far as I know.
> Ebony edge to the board too. Across the grain but divided into sections in order to allow for movement
> 
> View attachment 124499
> ...



The same as mine. Add a couple of Perspex set squares at a few £ to complete the set.


----------



## the great waldo (26 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> Fairly common as far as I know.
> Ebony edge to the board too. Across the grain but divided into sections in order to allow for movement
> 
> View attachment 124499
> ...


Thanks for that. It just reminded me that my father had one of those when I was young (He was an engineer working for Wimpeys (not the hamburger bar) I'd completely forgotten about it. 
Cheers
Andrew


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (27 Dec 2021)

el_Pedr0 said:


> I'm about to do a wardrobe build and am thinking some reliable squares will help. Up to now I've had to get by with a cheapo screwfix combination square (though found a video on this forum today that will help me get it square - yay!), and a set of lidl squares which aren't really square.
> 
> Seems like you can fork out a lot in the pursuit of perfection, but I want to strike the right balance between price and squareness.
> 
> ...



There have been an awful lot of posts here, but something is missing in the offering of advice. 

I think Peter mentioned the importance of a square being square. Absolutely so. If you are purchasing a square in person, check it before paying your money. In general, the more you pay, the better the materials and more strict the quality control. David mentioned Starrett and Moore and Wright. It really pays in the longterm to buy the best you can afford.

Blades need to be steel and not brass. 

The most accurate square are the “machinist” type, but check carefully if purchasing a cheaper make, especially those made in India - the market was flooded with mass produced versions which were hit-and-miss in accuracy. 

Machinist style squares with wooden sides (not sure what the name is) will inevitably lose accuracy as the rivets move. Only one maker does this properly, and you pay for them - Chris Vesper (best toolmaker in the world). His are really solid steel machinist squares with wood infill. 

Now the issue that has not been mentioned is that one needs more than a single square. I would say that a 12”/300mm Starrett Combination square is the foundation square. One could add a larger layout square, which you can (as I did) make yourself …






For smaller work, such as laying out joinery, you will find these too large, and need something sized more suitable. These generally will run between 4” - 6”. 

A 4” machinist square and a 6” Starrett double square will serve very well. These can be picked up fairly reasonably on eBay.

Two starretts …






My favourite small joinery squares are these 3” double squares from Chris Vesper and Starrett (and now Lee Valley make one as well), along with this 4” Moore and Wright ($45 at a swap meet) … 






All of these are affordable. I have been building furniture for over 30 years and did not start out with high quality tools. Most have been replaced as I could afford to do so. The highest quality are not necessary, just pleasurable. These are squares by Chris Vester and Mitre Square by Colen Clenton, two Aussies at the top of their game …






Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## jcassidy (27 Dec 2021)

...wrong thread


----------

