# Lyndhurst Woodworking



## Bluekingfisher

Afternoon Folks,

Does anyone know if Lyndhurst woodworking is still trading?

I won a Deft table saw on ebay and was unable to receive it immediately after the auction ended so the owner/trader agreed to keep for me until I was able to accept it. 

I have now tried to contact him on the telephone numbers he gave me but unfortunately, one is no longer known and the other just rings out. I was given an 0845 number by directory enquiries but that number has been continually engaged for two days.

I tried to contact him via their website but the link is shown as broken.

I still have my original ebay correspondence with him and have posted a reply but as yet he has not been in touch.

If anyone knows of his current state regards trading I would be very much obliged


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## Karl

A few threads on here recently pointed to the fact that they may have gone bump. 

Hope you haven't paid for the machine? If you have (and used Paypal) you've only got 45 days from making the payment to get a refund for non-delivery of goods. 

HTH.

Cheers

Karl


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## joesoap

Hi fisher 
Sorry to hear that ,it's not looking good is it , hope you don't lose out on it in the end .Can't offer advice but best of luck with it . Cheers !


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## mark w

I bought an extractor fan from Lydhurst back in January, the address and phone number on the receipt are as follows: 
Unit 2 (rear of Wyvale Garden Centre) Milbury Heath, Thornbury, Glos, GL12 8QH 01454413110. 
As the address suggests it is or was behind a garden centre, I collected the dust extractor in person, I found the garden centre and the business was down a small lane, it was not much more than a double garage. 
You might be able to find out if they are still trading from their vat number which is 862369206. 
I hope this helps. 

Kind regards, Mark W


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## Bluekingfisher

Thanks gents, I think I may have lost my £700, an expensive lesson learned.


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## Fred Page

The top man at Lyndhurst was registered on this forum a few years ago but sorry I cannot remember his name.
I had the greatest respect for him and his business and truly hope things have not gone badly. 
Fred.


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## chippy1970

Did you pay by Paypal if so you maybe able to get your money back.


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## andycktm

If you would have paid by credit card with a respectable company,you would have had a claim.
If it is paypal they are the last link (shudder).
But don't leave it at that you may be able to get your money back.
Good luck.


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## plymouth pirate

> The top man at Lyndhurst was registered on this forum a few years ago but sorry I cannot remember his name.
> I had the greatest respect for him and his business and truly hope things have not gone badly.



I cannot understand anyone who renages on a sale they have made, and been paid for, even if they are going bust.

It's just not something anyone with any sense of decency would do, no matter how bad their personnel circumstances.

I have to ask though, how long was it between the purchase and the time you were able to collect?

regards John


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## Bluekingfisher

I have contacted my credit card company who will thankfully at least investigate the circumstances.

I have a VAT no which one of the subscribers to this forum gave me so I will follow that up to establish his current situation.

I bought the saw 11 months ago now ( I know it's a long time) but we had an agreement that he would hold it for me until I was in a position to collect. I am not trying to deflect from my side of the situation and don't hold any grudge with the proprietor, it's just that I haven't been able to make contact with him over the past few weeks hence me asking you guys if you had heard anything.

If he has gone bust then I feel sorry for him as times are tough in this economic climate. If I lose the money then I'll have to swallow it but I'm more upset about not getting my Deft table saw as I have researched many saws over such a long period and this was the model I had set my heart on. Does anyone know if the same saw is being sold under a different badge.


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## Bluekingfisher

I have just spoken with the Inland Revenue Service who confirmed the VAT No given relates to Lyndhurst Woodworking and that the business is still shown as trading under that number. That said it may just mean that he hasn't got round to deregistering yet.

Thanks for all your assistance and input on this matter.

Regards

David


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## Harbo

Sorry to read about your problems - I have the T30 and one of their oscillating sanders.

It is sold under a number of disguises in the States - Luguna, Silver City and Grizzly Bear (I think?) but not in this country as far as I am aware?

Rod


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## Harlequin

any updates?
are these guys still trading?


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## Bluekingfisher

I have made have made some extensive enquiries of my own regarding Lyndhurst. The story is quite long and bizarre to say the least.

What I found was that over the years there have been on and off reports of this company having gone under, then re emerge later. The unit he advertises as trading from apparently doesn't exist, even local traders were not aware of him although some had received mail for him over the years. His telephone numbers are still live and Companies House shows that he has not gone into administration.

I spoke to the local police and they feel there is ground for an investigation into his activities and whereabouts.

I hope that it doesn't come to anything more than an enquiry as I would just like the saw. 

I hoped, perhaps naively that he may just be going through a bit of a low point business wise and would spring back. I'll just have to wait and see what transpires.

Have you had any dealings with the company?


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## wizer

I've been to their premises last year to look at the DEFT saw. It was a unit with a few saws and an office. Looked all legit to me.


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## ProShop

I've just read David's (Bluekingfishers) last post regarding Lyndhurst's trading history.

I remember 3 or 4 yrs back when it first started trading on ebay. It advertised a spindle moulder & a P/T, painted green I asked a couple of questions about it, and received no reply. I became suspicious and I too made some enquires. Shortly afterwards they disappeared from Ebay. about 6 months later they returned with a new website & ebay shop with Lyndhurst painted on or it was a vinyl transfer on the machines. 

I've kept an eye on them from time to time and as David mentions their trading history is sporadic & interesting to say the least. I'm suprised the company traded as long as they did. 

The company accounts make interesting reading. The latest accounts for the company are already 7 months late.


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## slemishwoodcrafts

I bought my dust extractor from lyndhurst, the 3hp job, and while everything was handled well , I would have to say their communications weren't the greatest. I paid by card and they used google checkout to perform the transaction. I phoned to enquire about delivery info, but never got an answer and emails were only replied a few days after I sent them. That said the extractor was top notch and works like a dream. Be a shame if they had gone bust because the extractor was tremendous value at £235

regards,

michael


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## Harbo

As mentioned above I have bought 2 items from Lyndhurst in the past and had very good dealings with them.
The items I bought have been (and still are) great and I would have had no problems in recommending them to others.
I suppose being a small enterprise they are subject to all sorts of pressures especially in a recession. Best to buy on a Credit card - you have some security using them?

Rod


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## ondablade

I found myself in a similar situation in the late 90s (an agreed 2 months, not 11 though  ) having paid the UK distributor for a combination machine - but not having been able to take delivery because of a last minute unexpected delay in completion of the building of my workshop. (another hairy story - it turned out the salesman for the joinery company doing the doors had a betting habit, and had spent my deposit and about £250k more belonging to his employer, and had not entered my order. Luckily the factory stood over it)

Promises to ship my machine were not happening, then phones were not answering, the manufacturer the distributor was representing didn't want to know and i smelled a rat

I got lucky - i hopped on a aircraft from Dublin, drove to the (boarded up) premises in the UK, managed after lots of Sherlock Holmesing to get contact information for a director from a local source, and after a stake out exercise tracked him down the next day and managed to extract the machine from him.

The position i took was that i was heading for the police on the basis that he had received my machine from the factory, and i had paid for it well before his bankruptcy so it was my property. Bankruptcy law is funny, i'm not sure if that interpretation is correct - you certainly would have problems if you had only placed the order and paid but no machine had been received.

It may be your guy has not gone bust, but maybe he just doesn't run his office very well. 

Either way there might be some point in getting stuck into bringing about a face to face meeting - especially if you can get credible advice (or even work up a credible story) that suggests you have grounds for a personal claim on him. Going to law if he is bankrupt as you know is probably not going to be effective unless you have a clear legal claim on him personally.

Maybe the problem is just to find him, that he's just stopped actively trading and not gone bust at all. The once you find him he'll say 'no problem'...

ian


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## BradNaylor

plymouth pirate":z6kamnfn said:


> I cannot understand anyone who renages on a sale they have made, and been paid for, even if they are going bust.



Unfortunately, if the company has gone into liquidation there is nothing the director can do legally to get the saw to you. A liquidator or receiver (I'm not too sure of the difference) takes control of all assets and it will be his decision as to whether you have a claim to the saw - if it is still there.

My suspicion though, is that a liquidator has not yet been appointed. I would suggest you go to the Companies House website and download details of the company's directors. It costs a couple of quid, and you should get the home addresses of all the directors. Is this the right company?

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/fb7d7 ... ompdetails

I'd pay a visit on Sunday morning.

Cheers
Brad


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## 9fingers

This is the one

Name & Registered Office:
LYNDHURST WOODWORKING MACHINES LIMITED
2 CHESTERFIELD BUILDINGS
WESTBOURNE PLACE CLIFTON
BRISTOL
BS8 1RU
Company No. 05051534

Good Luck

Bob


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## OPJ

Your guess is as good as mine, Bob  - I've found in the past that, if you Google 'Lyndhurst Woodworking' or similar, they're listed under several different addresses (that could make for a busy Sunday morning)! :shock: Another one, I seem to remember, is in or near Kingswood.


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## Tom K

9fingers":j6fitxn3 said:


> This is the one
> 
> Name & Registered Office:
> LYNDHURST WOODWORKING MACHINES LIMITED
> 2 CHESTERFIELD BUILDINGS
> WESTBOURNE PLACE CLIFTON
> BRISTOL
> BS8 1RU
> Company No. 05051534
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> Bob



If you google the address it looks like one of those business centres.
Essentially full of accountancy practises

Company Lyndhurst Woodworking Machines Ltd 
Contact Mr Richard Jackson 
Address Unit 2F
Douglas Trading Estate
Bristol
Avon
South West
BS15 8HJ 

Telephone 0845-070 4343 

Fax 0845-070 4346 
Heres another address website is dead but if he's doing a phoenix it may be worth a try


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## 9fingers

The first address is the registered address with companies house and the latter is the trading address which does not have to be the same.

Bob


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## Tom K

I know that Bob but in this case and with a large proportion of Ltd Co's its the address of an accountancy practice. 
Certainly wouldn't be worth visiting. His best bet is to visit the trading address during normal hours and enquire at the address or via any neighbouring business.


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## wizer

We're talking at least £700 worth of saw or loss of money. Go to all the addresses, TWICE!


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## 9fingers

It might be worth visiting the registered address but to be honest if the accountant are even vaguely half respectable, they won't discuss client affairs with anyone who walks in off the street no matter what.

I'd use the companies house search to get the home addresses of the directors and try there possibly as suggested over the weekend. At least they _might_ tell you exactly what is going on.

If the business is in administration even the directors can't help you in any material way. They possibly can't even enter the premises to give the OP the saw if they wanted to.

Bob


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## Tom K

Pay a visit to the home address :shock: Not a good idea at all. The reason for working as a limited company is so this sort of thing doesn't happen. Highly likely you would end up in the back of a police car.


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## ProShop

I think some of you haven't been reading all the posts on this,  as the original poster has already mentioned that he made extensive enquiries, including the addresses being fired up.

Both of us have done a lot of research into the company as mentioned in my above post.

Remember it costs someone actual money to bring in or appoint a receiver, usually lots of money. If the company has no real assets ( I've seen the books) or unless your owned a lot there is little point in receivership. If the owner has no money for a receiver, then it's up to the creditors to pay up. If none are forthcoming then there is NO receivership. Companies house will eventually just strike them off. 

Proving any real wrongdoing is a time consuming & costly business and usually if the sums involved are not that great then nothing will happen

It's a harsh world out there when these things happen, and not always fair. 

As David has paid with his card he'll get his money back. (he'd like the saw preferably but.......). We'll have to wait & see.


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## Bluekingfisher

Evening folks, 

I have been reading with interest the added comments over the past day or so.

I have already been in touch with Companies House, basically the company is still shown as trading or at least it hasn't gone into administration. I have also contacted the IRS and they too informed me that he was still paying taxes. I am not in anyway knowledgeable of company law or practices but all the info received would indicate that the company is still trading. Even the telephone number, according to BT is still live and active, I would therefore assume that the bills are still being paid for, which would again indicate still trading.

I contacted the local police to determine the extent of their own enquiries, although they admitted that they have not been able to spend as much time on it as they would have liked they have established that the address in Bristol and which is advertised on various websites has been abandoned for at least 18 months, this according to local traders. The police went to the Wyevale address which is behind a Garden centre and established that he (Richard Jackson) is known to them and works out of the unit. Unfortunately he wasn't there when the police visited but they will return to try an make contact with him.

I tried the telephone number for the Wyevale address again and it has changed, i.e. the answer phone does not kick in now. Does this indicate that someone has been back to the unit and physically changed the phone set up? Hopefully the police will establish this.

In addition having scoured the internet an various websites it would appear that he has advertised his company as late as 19 August 2009 and still at the Kingswood, Bristol address which he hasn't been at for 18 months as mentioned.

It may well just be that he is a lousy businessman rather than a sinister scamster. It would be nice to get to the bottom of it though.


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## Chris Knight

This is a fascinating story!

It's tempting to believe that the guy is a fraudster although if this were the case, one might expect that he would not keep re-appearing as Lyndhurst.

Their name has appeared a lot on this forum in the last few years and you might want to look at this thread

After that one, they contacted us to complain and gave this address - I am not sure if you have it?

Lyndhurst Woodworking Machines Ltd 

Unit 2F 
Kingswood Douglas Trading Estate 
Kingswood 
Bristol 
BS15 8HJ 

[email protected]


I don't know what to make of them but as always, _caveat emptor_!


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## wizer

I agree, you can't just tarnish him as a fraudster. Bad businessman maybe. But you don't know that he's actually tried to rip people off. I'm not trying to condone the situation but let's not call watchdog just yet. That fact that the OP left the machine with Lyndhurst for so long is probably the over riding factor here. I wonder if anyone else has been 'ripped off'?


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## white_sw

They moved from the Kingswood address some time ago. I collected my extractor from the Kingswood address. When I returned there to check out a saw, it was all closed up and couldn't see anything. I called Richard and he told me that they had moved to the unit our the back of Wyevale in Thornbury as the rent was far cheaper. Didn't get round to visiting them there.

I live only a few miles from the Kingswood address. Would you like me to pop round and see if I can see any signs of them ?

Cheers,
Sam


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## BradNaylor

Tom K":jkprkjd5 said:


> Pay a visit to the home address :shock: Not a good idea at all. The reason for working as a limited company is so this sort of thing doesn't happen. Highly likely you would end up in the back of a police car.



Rubbish.

You are perfectly entitled to call at the home address of anyone you want to.

Obviously if you use threatening or violent behaviour that is an offence, but just calling round and asking a few questions is perfectly legitimate.

All that limited liability means is that a shareholder's liability for a company's debts is limited to the amount he has invested. It offers no protection against reasonable questions being asked by disgruntled customers on his own doorstep. 

Cheers
Brad


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## TheTiddles

This is a very interesting yet unfortunate story. I must admit I wouldn't buy from this "company" having seen the previous lack of service and rusty equipment, similarly, I might even have slight hesitation ordering from Rutlands given some of the experiences of people here. If someone's taken your money and not delivered a product, they're a crook, if this guy wants to sue me, maybe he can PM me and we can swap solicitors' details, I'm sure someone here would like to know them too! :lol: 

Aidan


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## big soft moose

waterhead37":3cpcrmq0 said:


> After that one, they contacted us to complain and gave this address - I am not sure if you have it?



let me get this straight - after that ferrago they had the balls to complain, when it was their flipping fault in the first place ??? :shock:  (and i thought rutlands were bad )

I hope charley told them to go and play on the motorway

they were lucky byron is an even tempered and tollerant guy - if it had been me they'd have been hearing from trading standards and /or from my solicitor.

do we know if byron ever got his PT replaced and if it was a satisfactory resolution ?

likewise with the current issue - assuming they are still trading and not in recivership they have a clearly enforceable contract to supply the tablesaw or return the money if unable to fulfill - If it were me they be getting a solicitors letter to their registered company address stating that i expect either my goods or my money in a reasonable period (generally 21 days i believe) and that if neither are forthcoming i would apply to the courts for settlement.

the issue of whether they are fraudulent or incompetent is a red herring - the bottom line is that either way they have entered into a contract with the OP and have a legal duty to fulfil it (assuming of course that they arent bankrupt or in recievership)


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## wizer

Byron decided to keep El Rusto (and sell it a few months later :roll:  )


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## Tom K

BradNaylor":2v3o4avf said:


> Tom K":2v3o4avf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pay a visit to the home address :shock: Not a good idea at all. The reason for working as a limited company is so this sort of thing doesn't happen. Highly likely you would end up in the back of a police car.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rubbish.
> 
> You are perfectly entitled to call at the home address of anyone you want to.
> 
> Obviously if you use threatening or violent behaviour that is an offence, but just calling round and asking a few questions is perfectly legitimate.
> 
> All that limited liability means is that a shareholder's liability for a company's debts is limited to the amount he has invested. It offers no protection against reasonable questions being asked by disgruntled customers on his own doorstep.
> 
> Cheers
> Brad
Click to expand...


What are the chances of it being a polite and civil exchange?
Likely outcomes 
1. You get into a punchup with the cad who swizzed you. The police are called and you are accused of going there with malice in mind.
2. He is a complete wuss. Before you get two words out he slams the door in your face calls the police and tells them theres a slavvering loon banging on his door.
3.He sets the dogs on you whilst unlocking the gun cabinet

As the leading light of the MDF alcove cupboard trade hopefully you will never be in that situation, however lets just imagine it all went **** up for you Duncan. As a director of your failing company would callers be welcome at your door?


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## devonwoody

Those blokes on TV dont call at home addresses of their rogue traders (or do they?) 
Perhaps there is a problem with this kind of personal call?


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## wizer

devonwoody":2cfhnb09 said:


> (or do they?)



yes they do


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## TheTiddles

wizer":253lxnhd said:


> devonwoody":253lxnhd said:
> 
> 
> 
> (or do they?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes they do
Click to expand...


Been watching daytime TV, Tom?


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## wizer

No but I've seen that annoying Matt Alwright hanging out the window of more than a few angry tradesman's BMW's.


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## BradNaylor

Tom K":3uuvskly said:


> As a director of your failing company would callers be welcome at your door?



I can't imagine that I'd be too pleased; however, it would probably spur me into resolving the problem if that were in my power.

The thought of a disgruntled customer returning and talking with my wife about what I'd been up to would scare me to death!

:wink: 

Brad


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## devonwoody

BradNaylor":1oo9iim8 said:


> Tom K":1oo9iim8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a director of your failing company would callers be welcome at your door?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine that I'd be too pleased; however, it would probably spur me into resolving the problem if that were in my power.
> 
> The thought of a disgruntled customer returning and talking with my wife about what I'd been up to would scare me to death!
> 
> :wink:
> 
> Brad
Click to expand...


been hiring your tools out have you?


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## Bluekingfisher

nothig much new to report on my situation as yet. 

I spoke with my credit card company yesterday, having submitted a claim last week for reimbursement of funds . All they (credit card company) could tell me was that my claim had been assigned to one of their staff and that they had written to the merchant. I told them that it was pointless writing to the Kingswood Bristol address as the company was no longer there. They may however have different way of conducting their investigations but I suspect if they get no reply they may just settle. I don't suppose £700 in the scheme of things is worth their time and effort.

Nothing forthcoming from the police either at this time although i have contact details for the investigating officer.

I am considering having a drive down myself to the unit near the garden centre in Thornbury which he was believed to be last trading from. The difficulty is getting time off from work for the day and I am not sure if going down on a Saturday would be a wasted trip, not knowing if a Saturday is part of his normal trading hours.

I'll keep this thread going for those who have taken an interest in my plight and update as and when anything new comes to the fore or to its conclusion.


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## ProShop

Bluekingfisher":2oqxh2d3 said:


> but I suspect if they get no reply they may just settle. I don't suppose £700 in the scheme of things is worth their time and effort.



They insure themselves against such losses anyway, they'll just make a claim against their own insurers.


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## OPJ

TheTiddles":16o47v5w said:


> Been watching daytime TV, Tom?



Daytime? I saw him on Watchdog the other night at 8pm. It was either Wednesday or Thursday and it was quite interesting too - the main star was some silly person tree surgeon waving a chainsaw around with no PPE! One of his labourers almost lost a hand and he nearly lost his foot!! :shock: Oh, and, of course, he was ripping his customers off, not doing the job properly and all that...


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## slemishwoodcrafts

Did anything ever come of this?

I was just wondering as I had been following this thread with interest because i'd purchased from Lyndhurst in the past.

Regards,

Michael


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## Bluekingfisher

Aaaaaaaaargh, just spent the last half hour typing out the conclusion to this thread Michael but then wouldn't connnect when I tried to post it and I lost all the text.

I'll type it up again later when a get a bit more time!


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## Bluekingfisher

By the way, Can any one tell me how to add the little icons adjacent to their nick name on the posted screen??

David


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## wizer

If you mean Avatar, then you can do it in the profile page.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/prof ... ditprofile


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## Bluekingfisher

Hi michael,

There is some good and bad news connected to this thread.

The good news is the credit card company refunded in full my money after not being able to make contact with the merchant.

I reported the matter to the police for them to decide if there was a criminal element to the situation. The police duely investigated the matter and finally caught up with Mr Jackson. Apparently he went bust about two months ago. That being the case I must have missed him by minutes as it was about that time that I first started to get in touch with him. 

As he informed the police he had gone bump there wasn't any way they could take it further, not that I would have wanted to if this was the case. Strange though that all my enquiries would indicate that his business had not gone under and as far as the relevant bodies were concerned was still trading.

He told the police that he was sorry for any convenience caused, he stated that he had my saw in mind until he had to recently vacate premises (I assume from the kingswood address to the Wyevale address. This also seems doubtful as the contact number he gave me when I purchased the saw was in Wyevale and I know that he has been there since at least January. The police established that he has been out of the Kingswood address for at least 18 months, long before I bought the saw) when he had to move due to rent increases. At this point he alleged that he forgot about my machine. I don't run a business but surely you wouldn't just forget that a customer was owed a machine?? Surely one would have an inventory of goods in and goods out. Perhaps it was the way his business was run was the cause of his going under??

The police, suggested that he should contact me with his apology/explanation. That was last week, to date he hasn't been in contact with me even though the police passed him my contact details for that purpose. If it was me in his position I would have been keen to contact the customer, even if only as a token gesture.

He was contacted at his unit in Wyevale as he still operates out of there, although under what guise I know not. The police wouldn't divulge

It may be that he re emerges in the not too distant future as it would appear that he has done so in the past. I for one though will not be giving him anymore business. 

I was going to wait until the end of the week to conclude this thread in the vein hope that Mr Jackson would contact me and put his version of events across. It may happen but I am not holding my breath. The police suggested that if he hasn't been in touch with me by then they would persuade him to do so. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve other than give it closure.


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## 9fingers

David,

These are called avatars and you can define yours at the bottom of your profile page. Either choose one from the selection or better still make an original one, store it somewhere such as photobucket in the same way as you would store pictures for uploading into your forum posts. Then paste a link to that location in the avatar box in your profile.

Not sure about posting pictures? then look at the sticky at the top of the chat section of the forum.

hth

Bob


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## Bluekingfisher

Thanks gents, I'll give the Avatar, thingamebob a go

David


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## wizer

I think you should be happy you got your money back and leave it up to the credit card company to recover their money (which they won't). 

Alls well that ends well. 

So what saw are you buying?


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## Bluekingfisher

Hi Wizer,

I'll know if the saw I am now after is still available in the next day or so.

A kind samaratan has offered to help in my plight. I don't want to sound secretive, it's just that I don't want to tempt fate until I know it is still available and in my hands this time.

I believe it to be every bit as good as the Deft, perhaps better. 

If that falls through it will be back to the drawing board or ebay.

I'll let you know once it has all been finalised.

Thanks for your continued interest.

P.S. I'm having probs logging into the site and posting this morning

David


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## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":c39x2ksk said:


> Hi michael,
> 
> There is some good and bad news connected to this thread.
> 
> The good news is the credit card company refunded in full my money after not being able to make contact with the merchant.
> 
> I reported the matter to the police for them to decide if there was a criminal element to the situation. The police duely investigated the matter and finally caught up with Mr Jackson. Apparently he went bust about two months ago. That being the case I must have missed him by minutes as it was about that time that I first started to get in touch with him.
> 
> As he informed the police he had gone bump there wasn't any way they could take it further, not that I would have wanted to if this was the case. Strange though that all my enquiries would indicate that his business had not gone under and as far as the relevant bodies were concerned was still trading.
> 
> He told the police that he was sorry for any convenience caused, he stated that he had my saw in mind until he had to recently vacate premises (I assume from the kingswood address to the Wyevale address. This also seems doubtful as the contact number he gave me when I purchased the saw was in Wyevale and I know that he has been there since at least January. The police established that he has been out of the Kingswood address for at least 18 months, long before I bought the saw) when he had to move due to rent increases. At this point he alleged that he forgot about my machine. I don't run a business but surely you wouldn't just forget that a customer was owed a machine?? Surely one would have an inventory of goods in and goods out. Perhaps it was the way his business was run was the cause of his going under??
> 
> The police, suggested that he should contact me with his apology/explanation. That was last week, to date he hasn't been in contact with me even though the police passed him my contact details for that purpose. If it was me in his position I would have been keen to contact the customer, even if only as a token gesture.
> 
> He was contacted at his unit in Wyevale as he still operates out of there, although under what guise I know not. The police wouldn't divulge
> 
> It may be that he re emerges in the not too distant future as it would appear that he has done so in the past. I for one though will not be giving him anymore business.
> 
> I was going to wait until the end of the week to conclude this thread in the vein hope that Mr Jackson would contact me and put his version of events across. It may happen but I am not holding my breath. The police suggested that if he hasn't been in touch with me by then they would persuade him to do so. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve other than give it closure.



David, I am happy to see that you have at least got your money back.

Just incase this guy does come back, but this time under another name, it maybe a good idea if anyone lives near Wyevale that they let us know what the name of the new company is. Because at least that way anyone who may want to do business with him :shock: will have some idea of what could happen.
Although from what I have read, there is every chance that when things have cooled down, he will just start trading again under the same name, and supply his customers with their orders until everything goes belly up again.

I hope the other saw you are after works out for you.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## slemishwoodcrafts

well it's good to hear that you got your money back. Pity about the saw, I know the DEFT saws are very good.

Regards,

Michael


----------



## arch

Just read through this post with great interest, I also bought a T30 from Lyndhurst 2 years back now, like some of the other people on this forum I first spotted the saw on Ebay maybe the one the Bluekingfisher actually won! Anyway I contacted Lyndhurst and went out to see their "showroom" at Thornbury.I met Richard Jackson who seemed like a nice enough guy telling me how he had spotted a gap in the market for quality machinery and he wanted to make a good name for Lyndhurst etc. He went on after a while saying how he had a bust up with Axminster and Felder were going to tackle him about his machinery (not quite sure why).
Anyway I purchased the saw and have been very pleased with it, earlier this year I thought that I would like to purchase the 3 HP dust extractor, to be honest I hadn't read through the threads on this forum about Lyndhurst until today, I cant say I am surprised. I called him on the number I had, he answered the phone and I asked about buying an extractor to which he stated "I am not importing machinery I have sold it all off and definitely won't be selling anymore"and then promptly cut me off... nice guy. He struck me as your best friend when you are looking to buy, then once he has got your money couldn't care less! I am glad that I got my machine but can assure you that there is no reference to "Deft" on it at all now.
Some of the threads on here refer to the american Laguna machine is the same, they are correct it is the same machine, Lyndhurst actually sold a "Laguna" saw with the american fence on it a while back (under a different name on Ebay)
Really sorry to hear your story Bluekingfisher and I am glad that you got a refund, I hope that your new saw does go without incident, fingers crossed for you.
It would be interesting to see if Lyndhurst re-surface, I do pass by where he was in Thornbury on a regular basis, I might drop in and see if he is around, if he is still there I will post it on here for all to know.


----------



## devonwoody

Arch thanks for your post, posting again on the same thread means I get the email notification which is always helpful.

(I'm interested in the Laguna type bandsaw if it becomes available again)


----------



## kityuser

we all need to be a bit careful about what we state as "fact" about credit card cover when using paypal on ebay.

I`d suggest people check with their credit card companies about the level of cover they offer when transactions are via a 3rd party financial institution i.e. paypal.

I know of 3 people now who have been stung by this, the latest was a friend who bought some muse tickets from a site, paid via paypal (through credit card) and has now lost all his money (site was bogus, scotland yard are now involved). Credit card came back with the reply "we do not accept liability for transactions via a third party financial institution"

personally as paypal is not registered with the FSA I think this is a bit strong/harsh, however just a highlight that we should all be careful and at least give your CC a ring and check before making any large purchases.

Steve


----------



## devonwoody

And wont Paypal play ball?


----------



## kityuser

devonwoody":3ja37em6 said:


> And wont Paypal play ball?



discussions are going on with PP, the CC company and the police, its a multi million pound fraud so I think there is a lot of hand washing going on....


the moral being, check your rights before a buy...


Steve


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Gents,

My final Installment.

I managed to contact Richard Jackson via telephone to enquire about his situation.

In a nut shell, he has indeed gone out of business, he stopped trading about 10 weeks ago having been suffering financially since the early part of the year. The banks stepped in and the machinery was sold off to pay the debts. He told me that he had lost a fortune (a six figure sum) as a result of the closure, he just wasn't selling machinery.

When pressed if he had any recollection of my purchase he said that he did, but had forgotten all about it due to his personal woes ( that I can understand) I asked him if he was going to resurface, although he has no immediate plans he informed me that he was saving hard??

The machinery was sold off to Goss Engineering in Charfield but he doesn't know if they will sell the machinery on to the public but he did offer to contact them to find out. In his defence he was apologetic and as I have a refund on my initial outlay I have no hard feelings...life's too short.

On the positive side, I have a new saw, or at least I am awaiting its delivery which should be in a couple of weeks. Its a Jet JTS250cs cabinet saw. A good samaratan at Brimark tools ( not sure I can say his name without his permission) did a bit of digging for me and found it at the back of one of their warehouses. I got it for about the same as the Deft and as I am not a fan of the saws with the sliding cross cut tables, mainly because of the space they take up this is right up my street. 

I have noted that all saws of this sort of spec all have the sliding tables rather than the fixed bed table tops. I Have been to a couple of tool shows and spoken with several manufacturers of saws lately and it would appear the sliding versions are all that is available now. When I asked why this was the case I was informed because there was no interest in the fixed bed versions?? I put it to them that bearing in mind the biggest complaint with the majority of woodworkers is availability of space why then are the manufacturers offering saws with a bigger footprint? Apparently the saws are manufactured for the wider european market as they have less issues with space it would seem 

Although the Jet is not technically brand new it is exactly what I am after and should I need after sales service I have no doubts that too will be outanding, certainly if it is anywhere near the service provided until now. So thanks all at Brimark tools, well done. All' s well that ends well.

Thanks for you interest and advice folks.

PS I still haven't worked out how to upload a personal avatar yet!

David


----------



## wizer

The Supersaw, no less. I had that saw and was never happy with the sliding table. I think you've got a cracking solution there and will be very happy with it.


----------



## devonwoody

wizer":2dafhxsr said:


> The Supersaw, no less. I had that saw and was never happy with the sliding table. I think you've got a cracking solution there and will be very happy with it.



I think all sliding saws can be aggro, perhaps the 5 figure machines are better in that respect.


----------



## wizer

The one that's on the sheppach and is cloned on the sip, is really good. The Supersaw sliding table really doesn't work on the same concept. It's more like an integrated cross cut sled than a sliding table. It was trying to be jack of all trades and was master of none. I think I'd have eventually bought the left hand table to replace it.

But generally I agree, space is a massive issue with sliding tables.


----------



## 9fingers

Bluekingfisher":1irga3l9 said:


> PS I still haven't worked out how to upload a personal avatar yet!
> 
> David



Did you have a problem with the instructions I posted in this thread?

Let me know your difficulty and I'll try and help.

Bob


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Wasn't the super saw the 1.75 HP Hybrid type saw that was introduced by jet for a year or so.

Mine is the 3hp cabinet version or were they both known as the 'Supersaw'


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Hi Bob,

Yes, sorry, I'm bit of a technophobe I'm afraid.

I got to the point where I could view and load one of the images in the forum directory but wanted to try to load an image of my own.

Your word 'photobucket' confused me???

If I have the image in 'my photos' on my PC how do i get it from there to here? I couldn't see any obvious buttons to click which would allow me to do that.

The avatar instruction asks you to add the URL of where the image is, what is a URL?

What ever happened to the quill and parchment?


----------



## 9fingers

Photobucket is one of several photo hosting sites on the web.
Photobucket seems to be reliable and work well with this site; others may e just as good.

You join free and they store your pictures for you.

You then post the address/location/URL (uniform resource locator) into your profile page and the forum software does the rest.

A URL is the thing you type into the box at the top of your browser page to go to a place on the internet.

I did give you the link to the forum where uploading photos is described. I do suggest you read that.

Avatar photos need to be quite small (number of pixels) so use the software that came with your camera to reduce the resolution to a maximum of 80 x 80 and a file size of less than 6k.


hth

Bob


----------



## wizer

They are basically the same saw. I'm not sure why they scrapped the old hybrid idea, but as far as I could work out, the specs are the same. It's just the cabinet that changed. This is what I had:

http://www.isaaclord.co.uk/pdfs/tablesaws/JTS250CS.pdf


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Yes that's the one I am getting. Were you not happy with it?

Does this saw have the sliding, albeit short travel left hand extention. I seem to recall it does. Am i correct in stating that it can be locked to act as a fixed extention table. 

Can the mitre gauge be removed easily or is it bolted to the table.

In truth I would have prefered a fixed wing, I may contact Jet to see if they sell a fixed table extention. I still think it's an absolute bargain for what I paid for it though.


----------



## wizer

It sounds like you paid the same as I did 

It was a really good solid saw, much better than the rubbish I'm using at the moment. I sold it for financial reasons mainly. As I said above, I couldn't get on with the sliding table. It just never felt right to me. The biggest niggle was getting the mitre guide off and on. It some off relatively easy with just 2 knobs, IIRC. But in taking it on and off all the time you had to re square it each time. Personally that annoyed me. Others here love the saw, so you might be fine with it. I seem to remember there being a left hand table available to replace the slider but I can't be sure. You can lock it in place and forget about it. The only very slight issue is that the sliding table is set about 2mm above the rest of the table. Which might cause issues with jigs, etc. It also doesn't have a mitre slot on the left which bugged me.

It sounds like I'm being very negative about the saw, but I liked it very much. It was solid, powerful and accurate. I miss it. But I'd not buy it again.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

The factors you have just described to me are exactly the issues I think I will have to overcome to get on with the saw. I hope I have done the right thing by buying it.

The absence of the left side mitre track will bug me too, that and the 2mm height difference. I have just phoned Axminster to verify if they sell the bolt on left hand extention wing with mitre track. I remember when this saw first came out, I saw it at a show and liked it, the guy on the stand told me there was an extention available should the customer wish to purchase it as an optional extra. Anyway Axminster stated that the saw has now been superseded ( I am aware of this) and that he was not able to establish if the extention was ever available (with the greatest respect to him he sits in an office and was only going through his files) He gave me the address of Jets head office in Switzerland. I sent them an email but not hopeful now.

What concerns me with this is as this saw has only been out of production for a couple of years they already are not stocking parts. I just hope nothing goes wrong with it and requires spares.

All I wanted was a tablesaw with solid static cast top, seems simple and straight forward is no use anymore!


----------



## big soft moose

Bluekingfisher":28n7ywn9 said:


> All I wanted was a tablesaw with solid static cast top, seems simple and straight forward is no use anymore!



perhaps you should've got the big old lump i pm'd you about (it was a multico twelve inch tilt arbour - from G&M) - that's the epitome of simple and straight forward.







still not to worry if you dont get on with the jet you can always sell it - there is no shame in selling and replacing your tools every six months - just ask tom  :lol:


----------



## devonwoody

I bet a riving knife doesnt go lower that the blade on that one :wink:


----------



## Nick Gibbs

You should see what Steve in our workshop has just bought! I'll try to get a photo onto my blog soon. It's quite an old monster!


----------



## Nick Laguna UK

Bluekingfisher":jw7p3rys said:


> The absence of the left side mitre track will bug me too, that and the 2mm height difference.



Hello Bluekingfisher - I have also dropped in the left hand fixed bed casting which has the mitre groove. Best of both worlds now - either sl. table or fixed bed - both are included. 2mm height is all adjustable. You have a free lump of machined casting to put to good use whichever option you decide upon 



Bluekingfisher":jw7p3rys said:


> What concerns me with this is as this saw has only been out of production for a couple of years they already are not stocking parts. I just hope nothing goes wrong with it and requires spares.



No worries - we carry spares and Jet should also have plenty available for many years for a saw that has sold in very large quantities all over.



Bluekingfisher":jw7p3rys said:


> All I wanted was a tablesaw with solid static cast top, seems simple and straight forward is no use anymore!



On it's way and at a better price than wizer's :wink:  

Best regards to all
Nick


----------



## PeterBassett

Blimey :shock: You can't say fairer than that!

Pete


----------



## CNC Paul

Hi Jetman

While you are here what do you think of the Jet 22-44 ocs drum sander ?


----------



## wizer

hehe well Nick, if he doesn't want it, I'll have it


----------



## big soft moose

wizer":gp1vao80 said:


> hehe well Nick, if he doesn't want it, I'll have it



you selling your TS200 then ?


----------



## Nick Gibbs

CNC Paul":n6k9rdrz said:


> Hi Jetman
> 
> While you are here what do you think of the Jet 22-44 ocs drum sander ?



I tested this down at Axminster last week. I was pretty impressed, but it rather depends on what you want to achieve with it. I think it's fair to say that it's more of a finishing sander than a thicknessing sander, in that it takes a while to remove much waste. However, if you want to make wide panels, or perhaps to thickness your own veneer, it may be the only option. You certainly get a fantastic finish, both with and across the grain. There'll be a fuller report in the next issue of British Woodworking.

Of course a wide drum like this, at affordable-ish prices, might be a the big leap for the next decade????

Nick


----------



## wizer

big soft moose":1qva73ys said:


> wizer":1qva73ys said:
> 
> 
> 
> hehe well Nick, if he doesn't want it, I'll have it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you selling your TS200 then ?
Click to expand...


As soon as I can afford to buy something else, then yes. yes yes yes.....yes














yes


----------



## 9fingers

Tom,

Have you ever considered thinking about what machines you need, doing your research, trying them out and just buying once? :lol: :lol: 

I know the market needs a few people with your buying habits but you could save yourself an awful lot of cash? 

Bob


----------



## matt

I thought the TS200 was a popular machine?! Have I missed something?


----------



## big soft moose

wizer":1fpnwlup said:


> big soft moose":1fpnwlup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wizer":1fpnwlup said:
> 
> 
> 
> hehe well Nick, if he doesn't want it, I'll have it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you selling your TS200 then ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As soon as I can afford to buy something else, then yes. yes yes yes.....yes
Click to expand...


I might be interested in buying it off you - unless ive bought the startrite tilt arbor saw G&m are selling before then - i'm still undecided about that.

In answer to matts querry we've got one at work and its a good little saw for its price point, better than the comparable charnwood etc, but it doesnt hold a candle to the more expensive supersaw that wiz had before, or to the big old lumps of iron - but then thats rather like buying a ford fiesta and expecting porsche performance.


----------



## wizer

That sounds boring Bob.

But seriously. How could I know that I'd not get on with the Supersaw? It was something I had to use and get to know before I knew whether I liked it. The saw was brilliant, it's just the slider I wasn't happy with and I sold it because I needed the cash. The Axi was just a big fat mistake, but I'd done lots of research, it gets really good reviews on here. But I think those people who are proud owners of the TS200 have never owned or used a proper cabinet saw. I guess that's spoilt me a bit.

I have plenty of excuses, try me


----------



## big soft moose

wizer":3omhcdjr said:


> . But I think those people who are proud owners of the TS200 have never owned or used a proper cabinet saw. I guess that's spoilt me a bit.



thats a fair point - I bought the TS200 for work because we needed a table saw and it was what the budget would stand - prior to that i'd not owned or used one so ive not got a comparrison point to compare it against.

but that said it does what we need to do, and i'm happy that it would equally do what I need to do in the shop at home. Of course i'd love a supersaw or deft or whatever instead but i dont have money it would take to get one, so unless i buy a second hand three phase lump of iron and run it on an inverter the TS200 is going to be the best i can afford (more so if i part tom from his rather than buying it new  )

what this is going to come down to is do i buy a big ass bandsaw and inverter (looking at a startrite 352) and make do with a TS200 as my table saw , or do i make do with the little bandsaw ive got and buy a big ass startrite or multico table saw.......................... or do i risk the domestic that might (will) ensue if i buy both startrite machines and two inverters , decisions decisions :-k


----------



## wizer

I'm not saying that the TS200 is _terrible_, it's just not for me. I prefer not to fiddle and fettle machines to get the best out of them. Which is odd as I'm anti-mac which are computers that 'just work'. I was using the TS200 today and got perfectly acceptable results. It's purely a want, not a need.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Jetman, you never cease to amaze me, your type are few a far between sir, what can I say, except thank you very much, I am now one happy bunny.

BSM - I did get your PM and did reply, it should be in your inbox


----------



## Nick Gibbs

big soft moose":2316ll4e said:


> what this is going to come down to is do i buy a big ass bandsaw and inverter (looking at a startrite 352) and make do with a TS200 as my table saw , or do i make do with the little bandsaw ive got and buy a big ass startrite or multico table saw.......................... or do i risk the domestic that might (will) ensue if i buy both startrite machines and two inverters , decisions decisions :-k



Oh to find a solution to that dilemma. Bandsaw or tablesaw? It's a pretty close run thing between bandsaws and tablesaws in our Tools of the Decade survey. If I had the choice I'd always opt for the bandsaw, and then find other ways of cutting joints and cutting to length. I love bandsaws. Andy King and I had long debates about this: he favours the tablesaw as the hub of the workshop (at least that's what he told me a few years ago). It does, of course, depend on the size and shape of your workshop.


----------



## big soft moose

Nick Gibbs":1xwkljhz said:


> big soft moose":1xwkljhz said:
> 
> 
> 
> what this is going to come down to is do i buy a big ass bandsaw and inverter (looking at a startrite 352) and make do with a TS200 as my table saw , or do i make do with the little bandsaw ive got and buy a big ass startrite or multico table saw.......................... or do i risk the domestic that might (will) ensue if i buy both startrite machines and two inverters , decisions decisions :-k
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh to find a solution to that dilemma. Bandsaw or tablesaw? It's a pretty close run thing between bandsaws and tablesaws in our Tools of the Decade survey. If I had the choice I'd always opt for the bandsaw, and then find other ways of cutting joints and cutting to length. I love bandsaws. Andy King and I had long debates about this: he favours the tablesaw as the hub of the workshop (at least that's what he told me a few years ago). It does, of course, depend on the size and shape of your workshop.
Click to expand...


i'm definitely going to have both a band and table saw - but the dillema is which big lump of cast iron to in invest in - my little rexon bandsaw does okay for cutting out turning blanks and ripping to about an inch - quite possibly it could do more with a decent blade (its got a 3/8 4tpi skip on at the mo)

if i go for the big bandsaw it will be to be able to cut logs down without resorting to the chainsaw, and to be able to rip bigger baulks

on the other hand a big ass table saw will also rip - probably better than the bandsaw - and logs can always be chainsawed

decisions decisions

My gut says get the big bandsaw and the TS200 - as i'm not sure i have room for a big table saw - but if i can get G&M to deal i may yet wind up with two big lumps of cast iron


----------



## wizer

12months ago I'd have disagreed with that. But in the interim between tablesaws, I was forced to use the bandsaw and I couldnt be without it now. I do like table saws tho and choose to have both


----------



## 9fingers

To my way of thinking, of the two machines, only a TS will give guaranteed orthogonal cutting by design.

Yes, the bandsaw is handy but to me will always be a rough (approximate) cutting tool.

Components come off the TS to size and virtually finished.

Also how can I fit a dado set to a bandsaw??

Bob


----------



## Mattty

CNC Paul":3naxne3f said:


> Hi Jetman
> 
> While you are here what do you think of the Jet 22-44 ocs drum sander ?


I've been hammering my Jet DDS225 for the last week or so. I wasn't that happy with it at first , but the last week has change my mind. The trick for me has been putting cloth backed abrasive on it rather than paper.
It's not the same model as mine but i assume the loadings are similar.
HTH


----------



## big soft moose

9fingers":oz8mo9fd said:


> To my way of thinking, of the two machines, only a TS will give guaranteed orthogonal cutting by design.
> 
> Yes, the bandsaw is handy but to me will always be a rough (approximate) cutting tool.
> 
> Components come off the TS to size and virtually finished.
> 
> Also how can I fit a dado set to a bandsaw??
> 
> Bob



I tend to agree with you which is why i want a tablesaw as well - got no plans to fit a dado head tho - thats what the router table is for


----------



## Nick Gibbs

Mattty":11gxljxx said:


> I've been hammering my Jet DDS225 for the last week or so. I wasn't that happy with it at first , but the last week has change my mind. The trick for me has been putting cloth backed abrasive on it rather than paper.
> It's not the same model as mine but i assume the loadings are similar.
> HTH



I tested the 22-44 the other day and in retrospect had problems with paper-backed abrasive. We started with cloth-backed, but it got clogged with Titebond from a glued-up panel I was smoothing. The paper abrasive we then used broke twice, perhaps because we were giving it too much stick, or perhaps because it is paper-backed and not really designed for the job. Frustratingly Axminster didn't seem to have a stock of the cloth-backed abrasive down to 40 grit that I wanted to try to see how fast it removes waste. There's no doubt though that it can produce a fantastic finish, and if you need to do wide panels there's really no other way. It's sturdy and we were able to get it sanding level easily enough. 

Nick


----------



## big soft moose

just throwing a couple of other spanners amongst the pigeons

a) what do people think about radial arm saws as an alternative to table saws. I know kevin ley swears by his according to his book - and G&M have got a couple of dewalt ones at reasonable prices

and

b) with regard to table saws whats the opinion on the Jet JTS 10 - from where i'm standing it looks like a TS200 withou the extension and sliding table - which features i'd probably remove anyway - and its a lot cheaper.


----------



## Nick Gibbs

big soft moose":d9efouec said:


> just throwing a couple of other spanners amongst the pigeons
> 
> a) what do people think about radial arm saws as an alternative to table saws. I know kevin ley swears by his according to his book - and G&M have got a couple of dewalt ones at reasonable prices



Now there's a question. I'm not a big fan, mainly because they create so much dust and noise, and you have to dedicate a wall to them. That said if you can find a spot for them they are superb for making quick cuts to length, much more effectively than on a tablesaw, which invariably you will have to change from ripping to crosscutting mode. I'm convinced you could dispense with the tablesaw and have a bandsaw and mitresaw/radial arm saw. Do your tenoning with a router, either on a router table, Woodrat, or with a jig like the new budget Leigh FMT what I tested the other day. Or with your bandsaw if it's well set up.


----------



## wizer

I can't comment on RAS other than they certainly aren't as versatile as a TS.

The Jet JTS-10 came straight out of the Early Learning catalogue and re branded from Fisher Price. I'm not kidding, it looks like a toy.


----------



## Nick Gibbs

Thinking about it, for tenoning we'd use the Wealden tenon cutter, which looks like a mini-cutterblock and is superb. We mentioned it last issue, and will be testing it in the next issue. Could be a tool for the next decade!


----------



## Mattty

Nick Gibbs":2gz7474j said:


> Thinking about it, for tenoning we'd use the Wealden tenon cutter, which looks like a mini-cutterblock and is superb. We mentioned it last issue, and will be testing it in the next issue. Could be a tool for the next decade!


To fit an RAS?


----------



## Nick Gibbs

If the RAS can be converted into an overhead router and has a 1/2in chuck I don't see why not. Could be interesting, but perhaps not recommended. You'd need to check with Wealden. We'll give it a go!


----------



## RogerS

devonwoody":monkyn1i said:


> And wont Paypal play ball?



Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?

Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.


----------



## jimi43

Just being a little boring and going back to the original thread which is REALLY interesting....

I would like to say how amazed I am that small businesses can go to the wall only for the director to pop back up doing exactly the same thing until the next time - each time hurting customers...

I fail to see how trading standards and legislation allows for this. I have seen it in my business relationships and it appalls me.

Regarding bandsaws, table saws and radial arm saws...they all do what they do better than what the others do.....

What is amazing is that, within limits....they all perform at least one step up price-wise..if you put quality blades on them replacing the rubbish that usually comes with them.

I have all of them and I wouldn't be without any of them now....but none of them replace hand tools.

Jim


----------



## OPJ

big soft moose":11fillqw said:


> Oh to find a solution to that dilemma. Bandsaw or tablesaw?



If you've got the space for both then, it comes down to what sort of work you do. Pete, if you're primarily in to 'turning then, go for a bigger bandsaw. In which case, you may not even need a table saw...

That's how I've been trying to work the last couple of years, without a table saw. But, I've since realised that if I want to have a crack at making furniture full-time then I'm going to need a way to accurately rip sheet materials down efficiently. I just cannot do that with a circular saw or router (even with a jig) for anything other than the initial cuts which break a large sheet down in to sizes I can handle alone. It still takes too long, which is why I'm considering a table saw - something like the Record TS200, as I really don't I could fit anything larger inside.

Saying that, I'd also like a much bigger bandsaw one day for cutting veneers!  But, it's not as essential for me, making furniture.

Radial arm saws frighten me. I've worked with a couple of those 'lightweight' DeWalt saws and they don't like to cut anything larger than 2"x1" pine! If you were desperate for an RAS, I would only suggest a large Wadkin or, at the very least, one of the large DeWalt saws (they look totally different to the cheap green-now-yellow ones). By comparison, I believe that SCMSs are much safer, even though many of the larger ones aren't always repeatedly accurate.

But, most of your finish cross-cutting could probably be done on a table saw in the workshop. Or, with a hand-held circular saw (I plan to get rid of my Bosch to make room for a TS).

Just my views but, I hope they help. 

By the way, those tenon cutters are awesome!


----------



## kityuser

RogerS":rn8co6bx said:


> devonwoody":rn8co6bx said:
> 
> 
> 
> And wont Paypal play ball?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?
> 
> Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.
Click to expand...




Rob?????

:? 

Steve


----------



## Vormulac

big soft moose":2svs00s6 said:


> b) with regard to table saws whats the opinion on the Jet JTS 10 - from where i'm standing it looks like a TS200 withou the extension and sliding table - which features i'd probably remove anyway - and its a lot cheaper.



I bought the Jet JTS-10 a few years ago and have barely used it, I bought it with a whole load of other kit that I got when I fitted out my workshop. It's cheap and nasty and I regret enormously not spending that extra £180 or whatever it was on getting a better bandsaw instead. I daresay the JTS-10 would function to requirements if I spent a whole lot of money replacing the attrocious 'fence' and the worse than useless mitre gauge and the flimsy pressed sheet table extensions, but to be honest, life is too short and my funds insufficient. I was unable to sell it on so I'll probably hang on to it for doing small jobs when I can't be bothered to get the EZ rails out. For the last two years it's been doing sterling work as a table in the corner that I dump stuff on top of.

*Not* recommended.


----------



## RogerS

kityuser":291b7670 said:


> RogerS":291b7670 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> devonwoody":291b7670 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And wont Paypal play ball?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?
> 
> Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rob?????
> 
> :?
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...


Opps..sorry, Mike


----------



## TheTiddles

That guy was only sorry because he got caught, he's fraudulent and only got away with is as he went bust soon afterwards. Let's hope something happens to him to repay his great service

Aidan


----------



## MikeG.

Nick Gibbs":3ddgxjvj said:


> big soft moose":3ddgxjvj said:
> 
> 
> 
> just throwing a couple of other spanners amongst the pigeons
> 
> a) what do people think about radial arm saws as an alternative to table saws. I know kevin ley swears by his according to his book - and G&M have got a couple of dewalt ones at reasonable prices
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said if you can find a spot for them they are superb for making quick cuts to length, much more effectively than on a tablesaw, which invariably you will have to change from ripping to crosscutting mode. I'm convinced you could dispense with the tablesaw and have a bandsaw and mitresaw/radial arm saw. Do your tenoning with a router,.
Click to expand...


I have ignored this thread due to the title............but titles are so often misleading!

I'm with Nick on this.......except for one thing. I do all my tenons with the RAS. The beauty of the RAS is the simplicity of setting up stops to do repeatable cuts to length, and the same thing applies to cuts only partially through the wood, such as tenons. Raise the blade above the bed, set up a stop to cut the shoulders, then just do a series of passes across the grain until you have remove all the waste. The accuracy of this method is determined by the accuracy of your thicknessing, however.

I've always had a RAS, inherited with the first house I bought, and I use it all the time. Olly, it will manage easily more than 2x1!!! It will easily and accurately cut 12x2. The dust is easily collected.

The only caution I would add about the RAS is don't, whatever you do, attempt to turn it at right angles and use it to rip. It is so utterly ridiculously dangerous at that.....it should be banned!

Mike


----------



## OPJ

Mike Garnham":34iw17iu said:


> I'm with Nick on this.......except for one thing. I do all my tenons with the RAS. The beauty of the RAS is the simplicity of setting up stops to do repeatable cuts to length, and the same thing applies to cuts only partially through the wood, such as tenons. Raise the blade above the bed, set up a stop to cut the shoulders, then just do a series of passes across the grain until you have remove all the waste. The accuracy of this method is determined by the accuracy of your thicknessing, however.
> 
> I've always had a RAS, inherited with the first house I bought, and I use it all the time. Olly, it will manage easily more than 2x1!!! It will easily and accurately cut 12x2. The dust is easily collected.
> 
> The only caution I would add about the RAS is don't, whatever you do, attempt to turn it at right angles and use it to rip. It is so utterly ridiculously dangerous at that.....it should be banned!
> 
> Mike



Nick is right that you can do away with a table saw if you're only working with solid timber... It's only when you want to be able to cut sheet materials _efficiently_ that you begin to realise what you're missing. I doubt that's something a circular saw and guide rail/saw board combo. would solve either, as you need to reset your guide for repetition cuts - where as, with a table saw, you just leave the fence set and continue.

With radial arm saws, yes, they are capable of cutting up to 4in. thick (depending on the model of your saw). However, I've never found these saws to be as smooth as cross-cutting on a table saw - because they're so lightweight and stall easily if you're not careful [that's what I was getting at earlier, with the 2"x1" comment! :wink:], you often have to approach the cut as if you're chopping it with a mallet and chisel - tap-tap-tap-tap-tap...  If the blade catches a large knot or bit of tricky grain then, BANG!, it's wedged itself in the wood! :x Once you've managed to free it (with the power off!) you then need to check it all over for square.

I've always thought this is something which could be solved by fitting a bigger weight at the other end of the saw, though.

I won't argue with you about dust extraction - at least, the stuff you can see can be collected at source with reasonable efficiency...! :wink:


----------



## big soft moose

OPJ":3i1cgiv0 said:


> Nick is right that you can do away with a table saw if you're only working with solid timber... It's only when you want to be able to cut sheet materials _efficiently_ that you begin to realise what you're missing. I doubt that's something a circular saw and guide rail/saw board combo. would solve either, as you need to reset your guide for repetition cuts - where as, with a table saw, you just leave the fence set and continue.



and that in a nutshell is why i'm looking at getting a tablesaw - a lot if not most of what i do is with sheet material - ply, mdf . veneered mdf etc

currently i'm cutting them with the dewalt plunge saw and rail (which belongs to work) but i am not happy with the time it takes to set up each cut , nor with the ammount of chipping that results from the plunge through

I have reluctantly concluded that i dont have space in the shop for a big lump of cast iron like the startrite tilt arbour i was looking at so i'm currently lookning at a baby saw like the jts10 or the axi TS200.

I have also decided against the RAS as i dont have room for that and a table saw so i would need to use it to rip ( i had thought it would be okay in that mode as thats what kevin ley recomends - but i defer to nick's greater knowledge and experience)


----------



## wizer

there is also the excalibur range and also Blister is selling his Delta contractor's saw.


----------



## Nick Gibbs

big soft moose":diu57h0m said:


> and that in a nutshell is why i'm looking at getting a tablesaw - a lot if not most of what i do is with sheet material - ply, mdf . veneered mdf etc



That's a very interesting proposition. What do you buy if you have a relatively small workshop (sorry I'm only guessing that), but want to work with sheet materials more than solid wood? The important thing is to look at the rip fence and table extensions. It might be a case of taking something quite small, fixing it to a very heavy base (on wheels), with extension tables to the right and back (and possibly left) that you can easily fold away. A mitre fence is possibly less important, and will get in the way. Do your tenoning etc... with a router??

Most pros choose top of the range tablesaws to cut up large panels, whether they are sheet materials or frame-and-panel. That's a completely different spec to those wanting to cut joints on a tablesaw. The trouble is putting such a tablesaw into a relatively small workshop. Very interesting. Customisation may be your solution.

Apologies if I've assumed you have a small workshop when really you work in a double garage!!! If that's the case all bets are off.

Nick


----------



## big soft moose

Nick Gibbs":7lmtb1l0 said:


> big soft moose":7lmtb1l0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> and that in a nutshell is why i'm looking at getting a tablesaw - a lot if not most of what i do is with sheet material - ply, mdf . veneered mdf etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a very interesting proposition. What do you buy if you have a relatively small workshop (sorry I'm only guessing that), but want to work with sheet materials more than solid wood? The important thing is to look at the rip fence and table extensions. It might be a case of taking something quite small, fixing it to a very heavy base (on wheels), with extension tables to the right and back (and possibly left) that you can easily fold away. A mitre fence is possibly less important, and will get in the way. Do your tenoning etc... with a router??
> 
> Most pros choose top of the range tablesaws to cut up large panels, whether they are sheet materials or frame-and-panel. That's a completely different spec to those wanting to cut joints on a tablesaw. The trouble is putting such a tablesaw into a relatively small workshop. Very interesting. Customisation may be your solution.
> 
> Apologies if I've assumed you have a small workshop when really you work in a double garage!!! If that's the case all bets are off.
> 
> Nick
Click to expand...


no you're right nick - i'm in a single car garage and space is at a serious premium - it either justifies its place or it doesnt come in (except for swimbos bike which keeps coming in uninvited )

my plan is to fix the saw on a stand at the end of the hand tools bench with its table at the same height (and without its extension tables or slider) with the blade orientation being along the bench - fence away from the front - at the otherside (behind the blade) will be the router table.

so that in use the bench will become the infeed and the router table with its cutter dropped and fence pushed back will become the outfeed (like wise the saw will be an infeed for the router)

to cover the ocasional eventuallity when i want to cut something that cant be cut in that arrangement the saw stand (and the router for that matter) will be on locking castors so that it can be manuvered into the centre of the shop if i need more room arround it.

This plan is why i'm considering the JTS 10 despite vorms comments - as i wont be using the crappy extension tables and i'm likely to remake the fences if they dont measure up - all i really need is a compact saw table with a blade that sits at 90 deg to the table and is tiltable for the rare ocasions i want to cut at 45 deg etc.

on the rare occasions that i tenon - i'd probably use my little rexon bandsaw and/or a hand held tennon saw - or my morticer - I seem to be the only person who cuts tennons with a morticer but it works okay for me.


----------



## promhandicam

Nick Gibbs":1j56ibko said:


> That's a very interesting proposition. What do you buy if you have a relatively small workshop (sorry I'm only guessing that), but want to work with sheet materials more than solid wood? . . .



Simple - a Festool TS55 and guide rail - it is what they are made for.

Steve


----------



## Nick Gibbs

big soft moose":4ili96rw said:


> my plan is to fix the saw on a stand at the end of the hand tools bench with its table at the same height (and without its extension tables or slider) with the blade orientation being along the bench - fence away from the front - at the otherside (behind the blade) will be the router table.
> 
> so that in use the bench will become the infeed and the router table with its cutter dropped and fence pushed back will become the outfeed (like wise the saw will be an infeed for the router)



This sounds fascinating. I'd love to come and see the setup. To that end a small cast iron table saw may well be your best bet as the core. I don't know the Jet well, but it could easily be ideal. Email me and perhaps we could set up a meeting.

Cheers

Nick


----------



## big soft moose

Nick Gibbs":2dyxvm82 said:


> big soft moose":2dyxvm82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> my plan is to fix the saw on a stand at the end of the hand tools bench with its table at the same height (and without its extension tables or slider) with the blade orientation being along the bench - fence away from the front - at the otherside (behind the blade) will be the router table.
> 
> so that in use the bench will become the infeed and the router table with its cutter dropped and fence pushed back will become the outfeed (like wise the saw will be an infeed for the router)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds fascinating. I'd love to come and see the setup. To that end a small cast iron table saw may well be your best bet as the core. I don't know the Jet well, but it could easily be ideal. Email me and perhaps we could set up a meeting.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Nick
Click to expand...


when ive got the saw and set it up i will do nick - cheers


----------



## OPJ

Pete, if I were you, I'd try and get a look at that Jet saw before you decide to buy it. Looking at the specs. and motor power in particular (1500w), I'd guess it's going to be a cheap and noisy brush motor affair that starts with a real 'bang' - unlike the Axminster TS200 you use at work. :?

If you think you can manage with a saw of this size and build it in to a larger system for extra support then, you could trawl eBay for one of the smaller Bosch/DeWalt/Makita/Metabo/Elektra Beckum saws; the kind with telescopic extensions, designed to be moved on and of of site - like this. I've never used one but they generally get decent reviews. Plus, they're bound to be better built than anything coloured 'white'. :wink:

Saws in the sub-£200 mark can come with a world of problems (I used to own a 10" Fox saw). Even if you can sort the fence and some kind of cross cutting device, you may find the blade wobbles and doesn't run true. Some of these saws use cheap 'splitters' in place of riving knives, which don't stay vertical, flop about and generally get in the way as you're trying to feed something through the blade. :x

Router tables are great for small tenons. I've also got a jig four routing larger ones with hand-held router.


----------



## kityuser

RogerS":nc0zlvfj said:


> kityuser":nc0zlvfj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RogerS":nc0zlvfj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> devonwoody":nc0zlvfj said:
> 
> 
> 
> And wont Paypal play ball?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?
> 
> Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rob?????
> 
> :?
> 
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Opps..sorry, Mike
Click to expand...



MMMMIIIIIIKKKKKKEEEEEE??????? :roll: 



*************
** STEVE **
*************


----------



## wizer

kityuser":13ovm6fl said:


> RogerS":13ovm6fl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kityuser":13ovm6fl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RogerS":13ovm6fl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> devonwoody":13ovm6fl said:
> 
> 
> 
> And wont Paypal play ball?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?
> 
> Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rob?????
> 
> :?
> 
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Opps..sorry, Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> MMMMIIIIIIKKKKKKEEEEEE??????? :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> *************
> ** STEVE **
> *************
Click to expand...


Sense the sarcasm, John :roll:


----------



## kityuser

wizer":3lzl5arc said:


> kityuser":3lzl5arc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RogerS":3lzl5arc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kityuser":3lzl5arc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RogerS":3lzl5arc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> devonwoody":3lzl5arc said:
> 
> 
> 
> And wont Paypal play ball?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?
> 
> Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rob?????
> 
> :?
> 
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Opps..sorry, Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> MMMMIIIIIIKKKKKKEEEEEE??????? :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> *************
> ** STEVE **
> *************
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sense the sarcasm, John :roll:
Click to expand...


sense the sarcasm

Mary


----------



## ciscoeuk

just out of curiosity whos going to be the supplier of the DEFT saws, i was saving for one and i am almost there

damn and blast

if there is not a supplier could i contact the man who supplied, or the manufactarer direct


----------



## Bluekingfisher

He gave me the details, or at least part of the details of who bought the DEFT saws. It was a company called Goss Engineering in Charfield, no phone number I'm afraid. 

He wasn't sure whether they were going to sell them on to the public or whether they were for the company themselves. I don't know how many he had in stock but I understand he was a one horse operation so if they were for sale they may have already gone as it was about 10 weeks ago he went belly up.

If you do contact them I would be interested, as I am sure many would be to what the position is.

Good luck


----------



## ciscoeuk

Bluekingfisher":2nv5dlef said:


> He gave me the details, or at least part of the details of who bought the DEFT saws. It was a company called Goss Engineering in Charfield, no phone number I'm afraid.
> 
> He wasn't sure whether they were going to sell them on to the public or whether they were for the company themselves. I don't know how many he had in stock but I understand he was a one horse operation so if they were for sale they may have already gone as it was about 10 weeks ago he went belly up.
> 
> If you do contact them I would be interested, as I am sure many would be to what the position is.
> 
> Good luck



thanks mate


----------



## ciscoeuk

after doing a quick search for Goss Engineering in Charfield on the nest details at all

i will do a bit more digging


just had a thourght, if i can find out who manufacturers the saws i think i can order direct from the maker and save a bundle


----------



## wizer

ciscoeuk":3oc4p50f said:


> just had a thourght, if i can find out who manufacturers the saws i think i can order direct from the maker and save a bundle



That all depends on shipping costs, both to the country and to your house. Obviously you'll not be getting any volume discount, nor after sales service.


----------



## ciscoeuk

true wizer but it may be the best way to get hold of the saw 

i have found the xcaliber manufacturers, just got to find the deft ot somthing simular

all the best


----------



## wizer

Well let us know how you get on.


----------



## ciscoeuk

wizer":kv6c1pvi said:


> Well let us know how you get on.



will do wizer


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Hooooorah  =D> , after much wailing and gnashing of teeth I finally managed to upload my avatar....only two hours and 8 mins this evening. I wouldn't have a clue how to do it again :roll: 

Try. try and try again.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Bob,

Disregard my pm to you as you can see, I finally managed it, thanks for your assistance and patience.

David 8)


----------



## ciscoeuk

*Good news *

i manage to fine the chinease maker/supplier for deft saw he has quote me $1300 US (£780) per unit, deliver to uk address 20 day turn around, he has sent me photos of the new attachments for the the saw, photos availible and details on how to contact mr JACK XU from harvey industries please pm, if you want me to post photos here, i will do so

subject to exchange rate
T-100 USD250.00 Router Table with Deluxe Fence (149.84 GBP) 
ST-1400 USD320.00 Sliding Table with Mitre Fence (191.78 GBP)

if anyone can order direct, i have have asked for payment instructions, and i will post again on that info 

all the best


----------



## wizer

It's tempting but not cheap enough IMO. I'd rather go with a SIP or even a 2nd hand saw in this country, I think.


----------



## ciscoeuk

wizer":2kxxogw8 said:


> It's tempting but not cheap enough IMO. I'd rather go with a SIP or even a 2nd hand saw in this country, I think.



me too wizer but after checking out ebay for wadkins startrites, they are feyching anywhere from £400 - £800, i got a shock while i was tracking a saw on ebay , it sold for £879 for a used saw, ouch

mr xu said the more you order the cheaper it will be, they do other woodworking machines as well, check this link for a basic idea
i wil try and get the full web address

http://harveymachinery.en.ecplaza.net/


----------



## wizer

can you get a price for this

http://harveymachinery.en.ecplaza.net/7.asp


----------



## ciscoeuk

wizer":3buz1pqj said:


> can you get a price for this
> 
> http://harveymachinery.en.ecplaza.net/7.asp



wizer i am wait on a full price list of all woodworking tools and i will post all here, could this be made into a sticky thread???????


----------



## Boz62

Might be an idea to start a new thread once you have the prices to distinguish it from the Lyndhurst stuff?

Boz


----------



## ciscoeuk

Boz62":5xsc3afn said:


> Might be an idea to start a new thread once you have the prices to distinguish it from the Lyndhurst stuff?
> 
> Boz



thant ans idea i can put all info on one threadm thanks boz


----------



## Jake

What were the shipping terms? (FOB, etc?)


----------



## ciscoeuk

Jake":1687a6oy said:


> What were the shipping terms? (FOB, etc?)




still waiting on all info to be email, i will create a new thread and put all info on there

fob, etc ???? explain please

this is my first atempt of importing so its a learing curve for me, i will post all info and experiance here


----------



## frugal

ciscoeuk":2cyef6up said:


> *Good news *
> 
> i manage to fine the chinease maker/supplier for deft saw he has quote me $1300 US (£780) per unit, deliver to uk address 20 day turn around



Be careful as you will need to pay VAT on that as it enters the country and import duty plus any customes and handling fees, plus the UK delivery company will usually sting you for them needing to pay the fees in order to get it released by customs.

So after VAT alone you are looking at £916, plus any other fees.


----------



## ciscoeuk

frugal":34cb6o8u said:


> Be careful as you will need to pay VAT on that as it enters the country and import duty plus any customes and handling fees, plus the UK delivery company will usually sting you for them needing to pay the fees in order to get it released by customs.
> 
> So after VAT alone you are looking at £916, plus any other fees.



i don't know yet but i will find out soon i doing my research now


----------



## Jake

He should be quoting some sort of terms about when risk and insurance responsibility transfers. The usual import/export terms are the Incoterms, which take various forms of standard contract always denoted by a three letter acronym - FAS, FOB, CIP, COB, etc. If he is quoting delivery it will be one of the C (carriage) terms, but you need to know when property passes and when the responsibility for insurance passes.

Basically, if the container falls off the side in a storm - who bears the risk?


----------



## ciscoeuk

Jake":h5zb1ud1 said:


> He should be quoting some sort of terms about when risk and insurance responsibility transfers. The usual import/export terms are the Incoterms, which take various forms of standard contract always denoted by a three letter acronym - FAS, FOB, CIP, COB, etc. If he is quoting delivery it will be one of the C (carriage) terms, but you need to know when property passes and when the responsibility for insurance passes.
> 
> Basically, if the container falls off the side in a storm - who bears the risk?



err a little over my head here i think


----------



## StevieB

I had my eye on a DEFT saw (until first the price went up and then the company went t*ts up) but I have to say I personally wouldn't even consider importing a single item direct from China no matter what the price. Too many variables to consider, including VAT, shipping, possible non-delivery, customs duty. And thats without the problems of after sales service, knowing what you are getting is indeed what the DEFT was, manufacturing faults and so on. The price is not that good as a starter, without all the possible add-ons of VAT and delivery. Have a look at the SIP 01332, Xcalibur, or the Axminster 10" jobbie for roughly the same pricepoint and save yourself some worry!

Steve


----------



## ciscoeuk

StevieB":2gblr51v said:


> I had my eye on a DEFT saw (until first the price went up and then the company went t*ts up) but I have to say I personally wouldn't even consider importing a single item direct from China no matter what the price. Too many variables to consider, including VAT, shipping, possible non-delivery, customs duty. And thats without the problems of after sales service, knowing what you are getting is indeed what the DEFT was, manufacturing faults and so on. The price is not that good as a starter, without all the possible add-ons of VAT and delivery. Have a look at the SIP 01332, Xcalibur, or the Axminster 10" jobbie for roughly the same pricepoint and save yourself some worry!
> 
> Steve



after thinking about it and and see what steve said i might just do that, but i am doing this as an exercise form myself 

i even found the manafacturer for Xcalibre saws and record and sip so 

if i could afford to import a volume batch i would do so and sell on ebay, to get a good discount to around £500 per unit i have to order more than 10 units, to get unit price down further i have to order a 20 ft container load (40 units)

i would a delta saw the new design but they cost too much at present


----------



## Bluekingfisher

ciscoeuk

You would also have to establish if the motor is wired for the Euro market. It looks like the saws are designed to be sold in the US/Canada where their saws run on 60Hz cycles. This being the case you would need a motor able to run on our UK 50 Hz supply. I'm no electrician but i would assume this being the case, the switch gear would need replacing too. So jointly, these two items could potentially add another £250 - £300 to the end product.

The kit does look nice though, how may I ask did you track down the manufacturers for all the different saws? :?


----------



## ciscoeuk

Bluekingfisher":38v6lghf said:


> ciscoeuk
> 
> You would also have to establish if the motor is wired for the Euro market. It looks like the saws are designed to be sold in the US/Canada where their saws run on 60Hz cycles. This being the case you would need a motor able to run on our UK 50 Hz supply.
> 
> The kit does look nice though, how may I ask did you track down the manufacturers for all the different saws? :?



harveys have sent me a brochue they make 4 version 2 for US/canada 2 for europe market, based on the deft specs

Electric motor (TEFC) 3HP, 220v/60hz/1ph 2200W, 220v/50hz/1ph 3HP (1ph) or 5HP (3ph) 2200W or 3500W

they also do a titanium cat for an extra $100 to the price

op extra

Universal mobile base MB-700
Zero clearance insert ZC-10L
Tenoning jig TJ-80
Sliding table accessory ST-30 and ST-50
Rear extension table RT-10(for CSA models)
TiN coated worktables

searched a lot of sites and found this link to take to others 

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/Table_Saw.html and refined the search for "tilting arbor table saw"

hope this helps


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Great stuff and goodwork. I would be interested to know how you get on, you never know you may have the beginnings of a new business. I'm sure they would sell.

David


----------



## wizer

David I happened upon your old tablesaw on eBay earlier. Looks like a nice bit of kit. I'd have been interested if it wern't for the motor hanging out the back.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Hi Wizer,

It's not a bad little saw, I would have sold it with the motor and switch gear but The original saw came with a 1 HP motor and I upgraded to a 1.5HP motor and magnetic starter not long ago as I was going to keep the saw. I had a change of mind and decided to sell it for the bigger saw, (now Jet) it wouldn't be economically viable to sell with them both on board bearing mind what I paid for them and what I could get for the saw.

Besides I purchased a 3 ph Startrite 352S bandsaw earlier in the year and needed a single phase motor so would make sense to use the motor and switch gear for that. I have just spent this weekend installing the motor onto it, so now have a single phase 1.5hp bandsaw. Just need to get some decent blades for it. Have you any recommendations for quality bandsaw blades? 

All that is needed for the tablesaw is a motor, switch and 3" pulley and away you go. I was thinking someone has to have that kit lying about their garage or workshop and would therefore get a half decent saw for very little money.


----------



## 9fingers

Bluekingfisher":3lqpwtm7 said:


> All that is needed for the tablesaw is a motor, switch and 3" pulley and away you go. I was thinking someone has to have that kit lying about their garage or workshop and would therefore get a half decent saw for very little money.



I hope you have better luck than I'm having trying to sell both a table saw and a planer thicknesser that "just need a motor"

I've not found anyone prepared to put a little effort in by fitting a motor and get themselves some quality machines very cheaply. All too much trouble it seems.

Bob


----------



## ciscoeuk

Bluekingfisher":2q1xmp8f said:


> Great stuff and goodwork. I would be interested to know how you get on, you never know you may have the beginnings of a new business. I'm sure they would sell.
> 
> David



would love to start a small mail order business selling quality tools, selling machines to order delivered to your door, but to do this i need capital

if anyone is interested in a new table saw, bandsaw, contracter saw, etc and wants to get one from china, min order is ten units to make it cost effective and must be commited 100%, prices and brochures available soon on all equipment and will be on a new post


----------



## Bluekingfisher

I know what you mean Bob, no offers yet, although there are over 20 watching it, not that that means anything, perhaps just curious to see how much or if indeed it sells for, but maybe just maybe there will be a mad rush at the final countdown lol

ciscoeuk, Although a little bit of a romantic view I too would love to make a living from my hobby, it's come about a little too early for me though, in five years I retire and I may then be in a position to consider it further. Until then I'll just have to keep dreaming.


----------



## ciscoeuk

Bluekingfisher":z8te25ji said:


> ciscoeuk, Although a little bit of a romantic view I too would love to make a living from my hobby, it's come about a little too early for me though, in five years I retire and I may then be in a position to consider it further. Until then I'll just have to keep dreaming.



i just investigating wheather it would be viable to start my own buisness as a side line,


----------



## StevieB

> i just investigating wheather it would be viable to start my own buisness as a side line



Erm, given the title and most of this thread is that someone has tried and failed, apparently multiple times, to do exactly what you are proposing, it would appears to be a difficult market to say the least. One of the main problems with big bits of kit, whether they are excellent or not, is that you do not get much repeat custom - people generally only want one tablesaw at a time! Excellent customer service may get you recommendations, but at 7-800 quid a pop a table saw is a big investment in the current global market. Given you have already got a price for single units, and not a huge amount less for bulk purchases, margins will be very tight - as Lyndhurst discovered I guess.

Steve.


----------



## ciscoeuk

StevieB":31inbrrw said:


> i just investigating wheather it would be viable to start my own buisness as a side line
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erm, given the title and most of this thread is that someone has tried and failed, apparently multiple times, to do exactly what you are proposing, it would appears to be a difficult market to say the least. One of the main problems with big bits of kit, whether they are excellent or not, is that you do not get much repeat custom - people generally only want one tablesaw at a time! Excellent customer service may get you recommendations, but at 7-800 quid a pop a table saw is a big investment in the current global market. Given you have already got a price for single units, and not a huge amount less for bulk purchases, margins will be very tight - as Lyndhurst discovered I guess.
> 
> Steve.
Click to expand...


what i had in mind if any one wants one, pay direct to manufacturer, pay me a small fee £50 or so to arrange shipping (bill direct to customer), hmrc, paper work etc from UK port, to your home, customs will bill u direct for imports duties etc, if i get 10 unit orders i then pass the saving onto the customer, takes the hassle out of the process for the indivual, but there will be a wait of upto 8 weeks for goods to be delivery, give you time to clean the workshop  

i have worked out the table units will retail at £1100 - £1300 with optional wheel base to your door in this climate less if i order 10 +

best time to set up a buisness is a growing market, LOL

but for now i going to but one just for my xmas present


----------



## Mike.C

ciscoeuk":2husjhmq said:


> StevieB":2husjhmq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i just investigating wheather it would be viable to start my own buisness as a side line
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erm, given the title and most of this thread is that someone has tried and failed, apparently multiple times, to do exactly what you are proposing, it would appears to be a difficult market to say the least. One of the main problems with big bits of kit, whether they are excellent or not, is that you do not get much repeat custom - people generally only want one tablesaw at a time! Excellent customer service may get you recommendations, but at 7-800 quid a pop a table saw is a big investment in the current global market. Given you have already got a price for single units, and not a huge amount less for bulk purchases, margins will be very tight - as Lyndhurst discovered I guess.
> 
> Steve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> what i had in mind if any one wants one, pay direct to manufacturer, pay me a small fee £50 or so to arrange shipping (bill direct to customer), hmrc, paper work etc from UK port, to your home, customs will bill u direct for imports duties etc, if i get 10 unit orders i then pass the saving onto the customer, takes the hassle out of the process for the indivual, but there will be a wait of upto 8 weeks for goods to be delivery, give you time to clean the workshop
> 
> i have worked out the table units will retail at £1100 - £1300 with optional wheel base to your door in this climate less if i order 10 +
> 
> best time to set up a buisness is a growing market, LOL
> 
> but for now i going to but one just for my xmas present
Click to expand...


Its not April the 1st is it?

Cheers

Mike


----------



## big soft moose

9fingers":1vbt5utj said:


> Bluekingfisher":1vbt5utj said:
> 
> 
> 
> All that is needed for the tablesaw is a motor, switch and 3" pulley and away you go. I was thinking someone has to have that kit lying about their garage or workshop and would therefore get a half decent saw for very little money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you have better luck than I'm having trying to sell both a table saw and a planer thicknesser that "just need a motor"
> 
> I've not found anyone prepared to put a little effort in by fitting a motor and get themselves some quality machines very cheaply. All too much trouble it seems.
> 
> Bob
Click to expand...


to be fair bob i'd suggest that it seems like "just a little effort" to you because you do this kind of work all the time. Most of us are woodworkers not mechanics and speaking for myself would have no idea how to go about fitting a motor - especially to machines like yours which are attachments off another machine.

by the time one has paid out somewhere in the region of a ton for the motor then spent more on parts/tools/guarding to fit it , then spent several days faffing arround with the fitment, only to make a mediocre job of it - it starts to look anything but as cheap route .


----------



## Philly

Ciscoe
One more word of warning - a friend went down a similar path importing machines. He received damaged items in every shipment from the shipping - neither supplier or courier will accept blame, and you end up having to canibalise one machine out of a batch. Say goodnight to any hope of profit :lol: 
So well worth keeping this in mind.
Philly


----------



## ciscoeuk

Philly":2ohao14h said:


> Ciscoe
> One more word of warning - a friend went down a similar path importing machines. He received damaged items in every shipment from the shipping - neither supplier or courier will accept blame, and you end up having to canibalise one machine out of a batch. Say goodnight to any hope of profit :lol:
> So well worth keeping this in mind.
> Philly



i was saving for a DEFT saw, as are no longer available here in the UK, which is a flipping shame, 

thanks for the warning, but at present i am only importing 1 machine for my use, to see what happens to try out the systems in place, and hopfully get a decent machine, what my intention is to post all info on this forum so other members will have the benifit of my experiance & may wish to pursure there own machine imports and save some money in the process

i have the manufacturers details so i might as well use them! but with caution!!! 

by the way i have found the manufact of the jet saw and tool brand they will ship direct to you without the jet logo

all the best


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Bet they still can't ship the Jet (the machine with no name) for a better deal than I got mine for?.... Not gloating, but missing out on the DEFT was a blessing in disguise....What's for ya, won't get passed ya! \/


----------



## ciscoeuk

Bluekingfisher":3b7bqcmo said:


> Bet they still can't ship the Jet (the machine with no name) for a better deal than I got mine for?.... Not gloating, but missing out on the DEFT was a blessing in disguise....What's for ya, won't get passed ya! \/




explain???


----------



## Schummie

Hello woodworkers,

Again a new version from the Deft table saw, now in Australia,
the Carba-Tec 10" HD Left Tilt Saw Bench (CTH-110L)

This must be a really good table saw, I'm glad I have one in my shop. 

Success with everything,

Schummie.


----------



## wizer

It is a good tablesaw. Not the best, but good. Probably the best thing, is the price.


----------



## ciscoeuk

Schummie":1fg1nmy0 said:


> Hello woodworkers,
> 
> Again a new version from the Deft table saw, now in Australia,
> the Carba-Tec 10" HD Left Tilt Saw Bench (CTH-110L)
> 
> This must be a really good table saw, I'm glad I have one in my shop.
> 
> Success with everything,
> 
> Schummie.



where do you import from and at what unit price?, look like a DEFT in sheeps clothing  could be made by HArvEY in china?? i think


----------



## Bluekingfisher

It certainly looks an impressive machine. 

What I can't understand is why don't the importers of woodworking machinery in this country look at importing this type of machine instead of the lightweight, flimsy and ugly machines we have on offer.

We just seem to take what we get. No doubt the machines we have on offer are a lot cheaper for the importer to purchase and therefore a larger mark up, again rip off Britain, big mark up for little work.

Rant over!!


----------



## wizer

Price, I'd have thought.

Also, American style tablesaws are not very popular in UK base woodworking businesses. The European style is more popular. So any importer is largely supplying a very small hobby market.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Yes I understand that, but they still offer tat for the hobby market and charge business rates.

You are one yourself who confesses to currently owning a poor machine, would you not be prepared to to pay a hundred quid or so extra for the option of a more sturdy machine?


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Ciscoeuk has just sent some pics of the new version Deft machines via email. I'm sure he'll gladly send you them too if you give him your email address. 

Pretty impresive machines I have to say. Perhaps we could even encourage him to post them here for all to drool over.


----------



## wizer

Yes I would. I was looking on the Alibaba site that cisco posted earlier. The sheer volume of those cheap 10" machines, especially the very cheap ones, is immense. 

I still can't make my mind up between three options actually. 1. The Fox\SIP style 2. The DEFT style or 3. Old Iron. I think my best bet is the Fox\SIP because it's essentially a large portable saw and with limited space in my workshop, that might be the best option. Tho going Old Iron would save me money and I could probably work around a full cabinet saw, the footprint doesn't differ much.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

The new pics look even better, what with the additional bolt ons. The pictures will do them justice. The quality levels look superb.

The SIP/FOX models are the examples I am talking about, in my mind they fall some way short of the DEFT (wait till you see the pics) The look and feel inferior in every department and yet they are in the same price range as the DEFT.

Old Iron? you talking about a Wadkin AGS and the like? now, that's a saw.


----------



## ciscoeuk

ok all 

i have decied to post pics of all units from harvey industries in a new post let close this one

wizer or phil could you make the new post a temp sticky for now ope to comments, i will also edit at alter date to add import rukes and rega and final cost of importing


----------



## wizer

I seen the SIP up close and I think it's a very nice machine indeed. 

Old Iron refers to any old tablesaw, but probably a Startrite or Wadkin, tho the Wadkins all seem very large to me.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

I've seen the SIP up close too, not my idea of quality, light gauge steel, plastics turn handles. If you wade through the ailaba site they are way down the scale, assuming they have put their goods in order of quality, which is the way it looked to me. 

I think it's very important that a saw has a good quality fence, that is robust, functional and glides smoothly on the rail,. I haven't seen that on any saws in this price range for saws offered here. Perhaps I expect too much, but why not?


----------



## wizer

are you talking about this:






:?: 

Forgetting price, I think this is a good quality saw. I think it's current price is way over the top.


----------



## Noel

Philly":3rf5v0iu said:


> Ciscoe
> One more word of warning - a friend went down a similar path importing machines. He received damaged items in every shipment from the shipping - neither supplier or courier will accept blame, and you end up having to canibalise one machine out of a batch. Say goodnight to any hope of profit :lol:
> So well worth keeping this in mind.
> Philly



Ciscoe,
A good example of how not to do things. Assuming the original supplier is ok employing the services of a good forwarding agent will ensure that adequate marine cover and reputable shipping companies are used. This can make importing and exporting totally painless. I personally prefer arranging shipping through my own agent rather than letting the supplier do this. Sometimes this is marginally more expensive but retaining control over such matters is well worth it.
PM me if you need further info.


----------



## Boz62

I agree on the Freight Forwarding Agent aspect. A company I used to work for used one. Even as a medium sized PLC, it was well worth it, it let us get on with the stuff we were good at, and left all aspects of shipping in the hands of experts. The agent collected from our factory or delivered to our factory, anything beyond the factory door was their problem 

Boz


----------



## Bluekingfisher

wizer":fipb6uzs said:


> are you talking about this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :?:
> 
> Forgetting price, I think this is a good quality saw. I think it's current price is way over the top.



Yes, that's the one I was meaning, you hit the nail on the head...price. When these saws came out and up until recently they were £450. Thats about right for what they are. they are now about £700.. I think they look cheap and tinny, poor fence, very cheap starter switch. I don't think you could compare it to the Deft or similar machines, particularly as they are asking the same money for them :|


----------



## wizer

Yeh I'll concede on the switch, it's the same on my TS200 and I hate it. But I found the fence to be rock solid and smooth running on the couple of units I'v played with. 

Tho you've helped me make a decision. I don't think I'd be happy with that saw based on price alone. I think I'm going to continue scanning eBay for the right old iron saw at the right price.


----------



## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":2885cn26 said:


> wizer":2885cn26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> are you talking about this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :?:
> 
> Forgetting price, I think this is a good quality saw. I think it's current price is way over the top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's the one I was meaning, you hit the nail on the head...price. When these saws came out and up until recently they were £450. Thats about right for what they are. they are now about £700.. I think they look cheap and tinny, poor fence, very cheap starter switch. I don't think you could compare it to the Deft or similar machines, particularly as they are asking the same money for them :|
Click to expand...


You have obviously never used the saw. I have the 12" model and it is an excellent saw. As for the fence, you are talking out of your hat, because I have found it to be one of the best rock solid fence's on the market, and that is straight out of the box.
This saw comes under many names, SIP, Itech, Fox and Axminster being just a few, and most forum members (of who there are many) who own them have found them to be an excellent saw.

Compare it to the Deft? Not having used one I have no idea, and as they are as rare as rocking horse s--t it does not look like this will change at any time soon.

One question I have to ask. If these Defts (including the clones) are so good why are so few companies importing them?

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Bluekingfisher

If perhaps you had read the earlier post from wizer (I believe) probably down to cost and a bigger mark up for the importer.

As far as talking out of my hat goes I have used one, hence my opinion of them. You have not as you mentioned never used or perhaps even seen the Deft/Laguana/Grizzly so maybe it's your hat that's doing the talking.

If you are happy with your SIP that's great Mike, my comments were in reference to the poor quality we have on offer and that too has been identified by contribitors on this forum and else where.


----------



## ciscoeuk

> One question I have to ask. If these Defts (including the clones) are so good why are so few companies importing them?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike



to answer that part of the statement i can tell after doing some research, europe prefers to be suppled the sliding panel saws, but a lot of people just don't have room in the shop to fit the huge saws and opt for usa canada the DEFT style saws, 

personally i prefer the deft style becuse it more versitile, and you can add on at your own pace and do a lot more that just cut sheet goods, with the sliding tables saw you are restricted to what you can do and the slide gets in the way

hope that answer a that point


----------



## wizer

ciscoeuk":1ud5xpyn said:


> but a lot of people just don't have room in the shop to fit the huge saws and opt for usa canada the DEFT style saws,



What people? Hobbiests? What is the size of that market?


----------



## Bluekingfisher

I am often perplexed as to whom the suppliers of woodworking machinery are actually aiming their products at :? 

If you operate a woodworking business or need a professional saw with the large sliding carriage then, no problems, no doubt you will have the space to accommodate such large machines. Yet, most woodworkers whether hobbiests or semi pro work from small units, such as a single car garage (not even big enough for that now) or a shed at the bottom of the garden. With this in mind, why and all of a sudden have the importers gone for the marketing and selling of sliding carriage saws? :? even the small contractor size saws such as the Kity take up a large foot print. We in the UK are offered either the cheap and nasty bench top saws with their brush motors or the larger cabinet saws (now with carriage) and not much else in between. Like ciscoe mentioned the market is lead by the demand from Europe so we have to suffer. Gone are the days where quality machines are manufactured in Britain, the only way we will have acess to a wider range of products is if we make enough noise about it, but we won't, we appear just to be grateful for what we can get. ](*,) 

The Yanks on the other hand were continually bleating about the the increasing numbers of the machines made available to them being produced in China. Now Delta and Sawstop, to name a couple, produce their machines within their shores.

Personally I am not prepared to accept mediocrity, I, like most work hard for my wedge and don't mind spending it as long as I believe I'm getting value for money. Call me old fashioned


----------



## OPJ

Bluekingfisher":3shgwb8q said:


> We in the UK are offered either the cheap and nasty bench top saws with their brush motors or the larger cabinet saws (now with carriage) and not much else in between.



You're quite right. Except, I believe this is where the Record Power TS200 comes in. It has a sliding beam and optional right-hand extension table but, no sliding carriage/table or outrigger. As far as I'm aware, there's not another saw quite like this one available to us in the UK (excluding the Jet JTS-600, with its sliding carriage).



Bluekingfisher":3shgwb8q said:


> The Yanks on the other hand were continually bleating about the the increasing numbers of the machines made available to them being produced in China. Now Delta and Sawstop, to name a couple, produce their machines within their shores.



What really p****s me off is the range of affordable planers they have access at more than 6in. wide and also the thicknessers, which appear to have induction motors, unlike most of the brush-motored 'site tools' that we get. I've not come across anything cheaper than the Jet JPM-13 CSX for a stand-alone thicknesser with induction motor. :x


----------



## Bluekingfisher

OPJ - Yes we do suffer with regards to quality affordable machines here. The only stand alone planer I know of is the Jet (forget model) with it's 8" capacity. If you need anymore than that you will be looking at a combo machine. 

I have been to the states many times either on hols or via work, needless to say I have spent countless hours boring the pants off the salesmen in the likes of Rockler or woodcraft stores. The mass array of choice is staggering. When I tell them our predicament they raise an eye brow, they simply can't believe why we don't have the choice.


----------



## ciscoeuk

> You're quite right. Except, I believe this is where the Record Power TS200 comes in. It has a sliding beam and optional right-hand extension table but, no sliding carriage/table or outrigger. As far as I'm aware, there's not another saw quite like this one available to us in the UK (excluding the Jet JTS-600, with its sliding carriage).



did you know that most of the record and jet power tools are made in china & tiwain, anyone owns a either check for the makers mark on a sticker

alibaba search and i found record without the logos on


----------



## wizer

Guys I think you are over estimating the size of the UK hobby market. In the states, it seems most guys have a workshop of some sort. Whether they are into woodworking or metal working, it's common place. Not one of my male friends are in any way interested in having their own workshop and barely any of them do their own DIY. Serious DIY'ers in this country, rarely get serious enough to go down the workshop route. It's just a very tiny market. It probably is growing. 

Olly, that record TS200 is terrible IMHO, it's trying too hard and fails. I know Martin Chapman likes his, but he's the only positive review I've seen on the thing.

I'd love to see a the 'hybrid' saw the the yanks are getting now, over here. At a reasonable price too. But if Lyndhurst went out of business and the only other company importing something like that are Woodford, then they probably speaks volumes for the state of the market.

Don't hold your breath.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you on that point wizer, I don't think they have a bigger interest in woodworking per se' but they are just given a bigger choice. It could be compared with their car market. The yanks had retractable roofs, stereos, air con in most of their cars in the SIXTIES we have only in the past 10 years or so seen these as common place. When I started driving in the early eighties FM radios were not even fitted to most cars as standard. We all had to endure the poor quality until we demanded better and more choice.

The Americans demand a choice and they get it. Choice will encourage spending, therefore competition, leading to cheaper prices for the end user. But why would the sellers want to work harder for less profit when they know all we have on offer here is tat...like it or lump it


----------



## OPJ

wizer":3n92hbxs said:


> Olly, that record TS200 is terrible IMHO, it's trying too hard and fails. I know Martin Chapman likes his, but he's the only positive review I've seen on the thing.



If that's only your opinion then, fair enough. Although, I don't think you've actually used the saw, have you....? :roll: No, neither have I! 

Since Record released it in the UK, I've read positive reviews and comments in the magazines that I trust (GWW and BW). Recently, I've also contacted both Nick and Ben Plewes to see how their opinions may have changed since their initial thoughts were published. Both spoke in praise of the machine, as you get a lot of saw for your money. Both admit it isn't perfect but, with the five-year warranty, Record will go along way to sort out any issues. Ben's been using his for two-years now so, I highly value his opinion. He doesn't believe you can get a better saw of the same size for the same money, brand new - and that's very important to me.

There don't appear to be many people around who own this saw so, if I wanted to get hands-on before I buy (and I would!), that wouldn't be easy. I suppose you could ask why that is.... I believe it's partly down to price - anyone looking to spend £600 on a saw like this would generally expect a sliding table (I don't see why you couldn't add one, personally). Or, they'd be looking at something smaller/bigger altogether. If you want to add that it is over-priced for what it is then, yes, based on appearances, I'll agree with you.

You need to have more faith in Record, Tom!! :wink: Their after sales service has come a long way in recent years - they're not Rutlands or Dakota! 

Sorry, rant over.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

I think wizer does own the TS200, that's the one he is using now although he may prove me wrong :duno:


----------



## Dibs-h

wizer":2d5s5ubw said:


> Not one of my male friends are in any way interested in having their own workshop and barely any of them do their own DIY. Serious DIY'ers in this country, rarely get serious enough to go down the workshop route. It's just a very tiny market. It probably is growing.



That's so true - whilst some people I know might attempt a bit of DIY - i.e. decorating etc. no-one I know, male or female (watching Holmes on Homes last night - I could really do with some female assistants like that) is able to get past hanging a door. Making any kind of stuff (as done by most on here) - absolutely no chance.

But then again I did woodwork at school in lessons and at lunchtimes - haven't the foggiest if it is even taught nowadays?


----------



## wizer

No I don't own the Record TS200 I own the Axi TS200 (equally a poor machine)

I haven't used the saw, But I'd played with it many times and wasn't impressed. Maybe it was poorly setup the few times I've seen it. But it just oozed cheap and nasty IMHO. I think a lot of these raving reviews for saws like both TS200's come from people who've never used a proper saw and don't really know what to expect. Also, I'm just not a fan of sliding tables on small saws. It doesn't make sense.


----------



## ciscoeuk

wizer":fmqtsy67 said:


> No I don't own the Record TS200 I own the Axi TS200 (equally a poor machine)
> 
> I haven't used the saw, But I'd played with it many times and wasn't impressed. Maybe it was poorly setup the few times I've seen it. But it just oozed cheap and nasty IMHO. I think a lot of these raving reviews for saws like both TS200's come from people who've never used a proper saw and don't really know what to expect. Also, I'm just not a fan of sliding tables on small saws. It doesn't make sense.



at last its something we can agree upon, 

i own a jet 315s at present with carrage it a pain i have keep taking the sliding unit off to us the main saw for small jobs is is a real pain in the a$se :-({|=


----------



## wizer

I wasn't aware we disagreed on anything Cisco

It beggers belief why there is a sliding carriage on that saw. Why on earth did you buy it?


----------



## 9fingers

wizer":1ciqmtu1 said:


> I wasn't aware we disagreed on anything Cisco
> 
> It beggers belief why there is a sliding carriage on that saw. Why on earth did you buy it?




Pots and kettles?? :lol: :lol: 

Bob


----------



## Mike.C

ciscoeuk":4fyxmnzs said:


> One question I have to ask. If these Defts (including the clones) are so good why are so few companies importing them?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to answer that part of the statement i can tell after doing some research, europe prefers to be suppled the sliding panel saws, but a lot of people just don't have room in the shop to fit the huge saws and opt for usa canada the DEFT style saws,
> 
> personally i prefer the deft style because it more versatile, and you can add on at your own pace and do a lot more that just cut sheet goods, with the sliding tables saw you are restricted to what you can do and the slide gets in the way
> 
> hope that answer a that point
Click to expand...


If the buyer does not have room for a sliding table or does not want to use one, then surely he would just buy the *non *sliding table model?
These tables saws are not set up to use a sliding table straight out of the box, and are in fact once put together set to use the fence with both the left and right hand extension tables fitted.
Take my 12" model for instance, if you want to use a sliding table then you have to remove the standard tape measure, and apply the one supplied with the sliding table, which takes into account the different fence positions, and allows you to install both extensions on the right hand side.

Now you say that the Deft type machine is more versatile, so bearing in mind the above statement about not using the sliding table, can you explain to me why this is the case?

Also with the sliding table why are you stuck with cutting just sheet goods? With one pull of a latch my sliding table is removed and tucked away within 30 seconds.

You either buy or don't buy the sliding table model, I cannot see the problem :roll: 

I maybe wrong here, but I think that the only clone where you have to have the sliding table is the Axminster model, but even then you do not have to fit it.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":1g4wxzuv said:


> If perhaps you had read the earlier post from wizer (I believe) probably down to cost and a bigger mark up for the importer.
> 
> As far as talking out of my hat goes I have used one, hence my opinion of them. You have not as you mentioned never used or perhaps even seen the Deft/Laguana/Grizzly so maybe it's your hat that's doing the talking.
> 
> If you are happy with your SIP that's great Mike, my comments were in reference to the poor quality we have on offer and that too has been identified by contribitors on this forum and else where.



I said that I have never used the Deft, but I never said that while in the US (for a number of months) I never used the original Big Grand Daddy of them all "the Delta Unisaw", or the one that they all try to copy. And to be perfectly honest I do not see much difference at all. When I say much difference, I am talking about the final cut being a good finish, and exactly the size I wanted it to be. And the fence is certainly as good as the Biesemeyer. When I say as good I mean it stays at 90 degrees to the blade. And as long as my SIP keeps doing all I ask of it then I am a very happy man.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## ciscoeuk

wizer":3iqvomvd said:


> It beggers belief why there is a sliding carriage on that saw. Why on earth did you buy it?



agreement was ment as joke  

i brought it because i need a tables quickly for a major job for the house for a temp fix and of course it was a cheap

i know i going to get blasted for that :wink:


----------



## ciscoeuk

Mike.C":205cgk2l said:


> If the buyer does not have room for a sliding table or does not want to use one, then surely he would just buy the *non *sliding table model?
> These tables saws are not set up to use a sliding table straight out of the box, and are in fact once put together set to use the fence with both the left and right hand extension tables fitted.
> Take my 12" model for instance, if you want to use a sliding table then you have to remove the standard tape measure, and apply the one supplied with the sliding table, which takes into account the different fence positions, and allows you to install both extensions on the right hand side.
> 
> Now you say that the Deft type machine is more versatile, so bearing in mind the above statement about not using the sliding table, can you explain to me why this is the case?
> 
> Also with the sliding table why are you stuck with cutting just sheet goods? With one pull of a latch my sliding table is removed and tucked away within 30 seconds.
> 
> You either buy or don't buy the sliding table model, I cannot see the problem :roll:
> 
> I maybe wrong here, but I think that the only clone where you have to have the sliding table is the Axminster model, but even then you do not have to fit it.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike



the point i trying to make is not every one wants sliding tables or felder type Machinery


----------



## wizer

9fingers":3tm4pwv2 said:


> wizer":3tm4pwv2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't aware we disagreed on anything Cisco
> 
> It beggers belief why there is a sliding carriage on that saw. Why on earth did you buy it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pots and kettles?? :lol: :lol:
> 
> Bob
Click to expand...


My point was that the Jet 315 is a site rip saw.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

The problem is Mike, many of the saws are only sold with the sliding carriage now and you have to pay for the privelage, so if you have no need nor want of it, it either lies in a corner gathering dust or goes on ebay. Besides, the extention wing to replace the carriage does not come with the package, so additional cost again.

So, in your opinion then, having used the Unisaw, does the SIP compare anywhere near the Delta in workman ship and build quality... be honest now :norm:


----------



## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":1xecny29 said:


> The problem is Mike, many of the saws are only sold with the sliding carriage now and you have to pay for the privelage, so if you have no need nor want of it, it either lies in a corner gathering dust or goes on ebay. Besides, the extention wing to replace the carriage does not come with the package, so additional cost again.
> 
> So, in your opinion then, having used the Unisaw, does the SIP compare anywhere near the Delta in workman ship and build quality... be honest now :norm:



Sorry I know that there are companies selling the SIP with the sliding table included, but below you will find three links that I found in no time at all where the table is not included. On top of that the 2 side extensions DO come with the saw so there is no extra cost.
The only reason that I know a lot about these saws is I did a lot of research before buying mine.

Now to your question about the build quality of the Delta compared to the SIP, well I would be a liar if I tried to say that the SIP was anywhere near the build quality of the Unisaw. But that might be because I was star struck with my hero Norm using the same model :wink: Thats not to say that all the clones are as good as the Delta.
So ok I hold my hands up and agree the UNI is better than the SIP.

Cheers

Mike

http://www.dbkeighley.co.uk/masters/sip01332.htm

http://www.toolstop.co.uk/index.php?opt ... edium=base

http://www.kendaltools.co.uk/cgi-bin/tr ... d_SIP01332


----------



## ciscoeuk

i've always believed you pay for what you get, and get what you pay for, 

for example

a few year back a brought a cheap drill from argos, for £10, i wish i had't bothered it burnt out within 10 uses, then brought a bosch drill, £69, the marked differance, in quality was undoutably better and i have still got it today, after hundreds of uses?


rant over :lol: :twisted:


----------



## OPJ

wizer":8nlnsx62 said:


> No I don't own the Record TS200 I own the Axi TS200 (equally a poor machine)
> 
> I haven't used the saw, But I'd played with it many times and wasn't impressed. Maybe it was poorly setup the few times I've seen it. But it just oozed cheap and nasty IMHO. I think a lot of these raving reviews for saws like both TS200's come from people who've never used a proper saw and don't really know what to expect. Also, I'm just not a fan of sliding tables on small saws. It doesn't make sense.



Hang on a minute, I've seen the SIP in the flesh as well... That has plastic all over it. And yet, you don't consider that to be 'cheap'?!  All SIP gear is generally 'light trade' at best. Same with Record. Startrite would be their next step up.

I'd agree with your comment on the reviews, if you're only referring to the average forum member, here (still, I'm only counting one user of the Record saw...). I certainly hope it's not aimed at the magazines - otherwise, you'll have Nick, Andy and Ben to answer to!! 

As said, sliding tables/carriages are an option. Even the best ones have their faults. For instance, the one on our SCM saw at college needs checking every once in a while and sawdust regularly gathers underneath.


----------



## wizer

Perhaps my dislike of the Record TS200 is the way it's been setup at the shows where I have seen it and at D&M's shop in Twickenham. When I've played with the SIP style saw, the fence is smooth gliding and the lock is both positive and simple to use. The table is substantial and blade changing is also simple. It feels like a proper solid tablesaw. The SIP name is a mixture of poor to standard quality. The doesn't mean they haven't hit the nail on the head with this model of tablesaw. I'm not sure what plastic has to do with it? The price is way OTT for this saw, but it's still a good saw. The Domino is way OTT in price, but that doesn't mean it's a bad tool. As far as I know the sliding table on the Record comes as standard and there is no option to have a solid table in it's place. For that reason alone, it's not for me. As I said above. Sliding tables on small table saws just don't make sense. A sliding table is really only useful when dealing heavily with board materials. I intend to work with both but learn more towards hardwood. FWIW, the sliding table on the SIP is FAR superior over the Record. It is basically a clone of the Sheppach style and if I wanted to have a sliding table on a hobby saw, then I'd want that one. Indeed, it'd be the deal decider for me. The ease of which it removes for storage makes it perfect for a hobby situation. Not having the room atm, I also like the fact that it can be upgraded later if needed.

Those magazine may well have given it good reviews and the users of these saws may well be happy with it, but my opinion (based on the integrated sliding table and the quality of the parts) is that it's not for me. I think it fails to fulfil it's purpose.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

It would appear then, horses for courses, perhaps proves that of all the different saws available there are fans of each :-k Would that not suggest that perhaps there is room for more option, allowing us more choice. :wink: 

Just a thought


----------



## jedmc571

This topic for me personally is similar to that of comparing Tv's and computers etc.

Everyone has an opinion about them, it's not always based on real use, biut an opinion all the same.
I'm currently in the market for a cast iron table saw, and I'm bewildered with the choice, and prices available.
Yet even the choice of cast iron is probably leaned towards because of forum members reviews, I guess in my head I just see longevity in cast iron more than ally, yet I've had an ally TS for 8 years now that I bought from B&Q, it was badged "Site" but made by Rexon, 250mm and an induction motor, and it's been great, so am I really making an informed choice, or being swayed by what others think?

I think it's more looking at what my old saw failed on, and with more experience, what I want my new one to do? but it's got to be at the right price, and that's the sticking point, if you think it's worth it, then probably best to go with your head............just like a Domino :lol: if not, wait. preferably for the January sales)  

I think if you could line them up side by side, and see them operate, you could base it on that, but as we all know that rarely happens, we then make the purchase, and live with it :lol: and for me I rarely question it afterwards, because I don't know what it's competitors are like to live with anyway.
I think it's clear from what everyone says, the Unisaw is the "ONE" but we can't get them here so wher doomed..........  

So with that in mind..............which Tablesaw should I buy :lol: 

Cheers

Jed


----------



## ciscoeuk

jedmc571":25vaelvf said:


> So with that in mind..............which Tablesaw should I buy :lol:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jed



jed check out this tread 

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=36994

i trying to get a cast iron one saw myself an am research importing direct from china


----------



## devonwoody

Jed, I returned two tablesaws in a period of 6 months some years ago and then purchased the Axminster AW10BS/// which I can say has done everything I have asked of it. Purchased a top end 60T blade which I even use for light ripping or the 24T blade that came with the tablesaw for raw rip work. Even used the sliding table last week for the first time and it did some mitres on end planks. 

So if you are up for a T/S warm up Ax. and then wait for one of their offers to come through at a later date, might save you £100 + . :wink:


----------



## Mattty

This old piece of cast looks good value Wizer... better be quick though
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/liner-table-saw_W ... 2303ebe295



















Before it falls apart


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Just had contact from the delivery centre at Axminster, they will be delivering my JET 250 JTS next Tuesday.

Will report back on it when it comes. \/


----------



## wizer

thanks for the matt. But it's got non-standard mitre slots :lol:


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Interesting, they want you to pay £30 to clear their yard! good skills =D>


----------



## ciscoeuk

Mattty":2d6bbqtn said:


> This old piece of cast looks good value Wizer... better be quick though
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/liner-table-saw_W ... 2303ebe295
> Before it falls apart



have you seen where is located, IN CORNWALL,newark based, wheres the safty guards, :roll: ](*,) eeek


----------



## Bluekingfisher

At the end of all this I now have my tablesaw. It arrived on Tuesday bang on time when they said it would.

What a beaut it is, it came shrink wrapped and stacked on a pallet, including the extra cast iron extention wing and mitre gauge, brand new and boxed. I was under the impression that records suggested that some parts may be missing, so althoug slighty concerned at that point the photos that were emailed to me showed all the major parts were included. As it turned out only a couple of brackets for holding the rip fence when not in use and the arbor spaner were missing, so no dramas there I'll order them from Axminster just so the saw is 'complete'. 

When I bought it iwas under the impression that it was an ex demo machine so although not expecting a flawless machine I was expecting some saw dust here and there. Not at all, when I took the shrink wrap off it was shinning like a shilling, I couldn't believe it, there just seemed so much kit for the money. The only problem is, I now have a sliding carriage and mitre attachment spare lol 

So, I would just like to thank the boys at Brimark and Axminster tools for their support and customer service, it really does make the difference.

If anyone is interested, I'll load some pics on here when I get it all assembled. 

Cheers 

David


----------



## ciscoeuk

Bluekingfisher":2l4xmdev said:


> If anyone is interested, I'll load some pics on here when I get it all assembled.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> David



hi david

would you post pics and a review of the table saw once you have had a chance to play?

i might consider a jet saw, the importing of a machine would be great but i holding off till the new VAT comes into play and see how the market plays out in jan

all the best


----------



## Mr Ed

It appears, unless I have missed something that the Jet Supersaw (aka JTS 250) is not sold in the UK anymore. That being the case there appears to be a gap in the Jet range for a medium sized saw - I wonder if there will be a new product to fill it....

Ed


----------



## ciscoeuk

EdSutton":1s9sqllb said:


> It appears, unless I have missed something that the Jet Supersaw (aka JTS 250) is not sold in the UK anymore. That being the case there appears to be a gap in the Jet range for a medium sized saw - I wonder if there will be a new product to fill it....
> 
> Ed



DEFT Is coming back! arounf feb 2010!


----------



## Mike.C

ciscoeuk":26h5jj44 said:


> EdSutton":26h5jj44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears, unless I have missed something that the Jet Supersaw (aka JTS 250) is not sold in the UK anymore. That being the case there appears to be a gap in the Jet range for a medium sized saw - I wonder if there will be a new product to fill it....
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DEFT Is coming back! around feb 2010!
Click to expand...


Who's importing it? :shock: 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Yes, quite right, the Jet saw I have is no longer sold in the UK. The version available now comes with the large sliding table. Not my cup of tea at all.

I was going to fully assemble it just to show on here but as I intend building a new workshop in the spring of the year (the single car garage I have it in at the mo is far too small) It seems a lot of work to assemble it for a couple of snaps then dismantle it again. Having said that I have a couple of outside building jobs to complete but the weather isn't playing ball at the minute so I may assemble it to keep me busy.

I'm off to Warwickshire tomorrow to pick up an Axminster surface planer I won on e-bay the afternoon so wo't get a chance to do much assembling this weekend.

I too would be interested to know who is importing the Deft saws. Is it only the saws ciscoe or are they importing the whole range??


----------



## ciscoeuk

> i too would be interested to know who is importing the Deft saws. Is it only the saws ciscoe or are they importing the whole range??



i am taking the pluge and setting up a small business via a website, i decieded to "test the market", i will be stocking a range of DEFT tablesaws and bandsaws, deft machine parts and accessiories, also freud blades, etc and a few other makes

not sure about others bits yet starting very small, certain items will be on a made to order, with a 60 day lead time, sorry but its more cost effective to do it this way, units will come direct to your door., proberly not the best time to set up a business, but axminster started in a very small workshop, 

i will be offering free demo days once a month

but i am still in research mode for shippng and costs, prices yet to be set
still have a lot to do, further info to come! i am hoping to have a partial website up by feb '10 

i would love to put an ad banner on here, depends on cost?


----------



## jimi43

Go for it mate! I wish you the very best of luck...one thing's for sure...if you can make it in this climate you can make it in ANY climate...and the "feel good factor" is just around the corner with lots of suppressed custom just waiting to explode...

I think you might have the timing dead right!

I am sure there will be a few customers here...I know I would be interested!

Cheers!

Jim


----------



## Bluekingfisher

I echo Jims sentiments, I wish you all the best. I think the falling point for Richard jackson at Lyndhurst was his after sales service. He certainly didn't go under because of the product.

You get the customer care right and you are onto a winner. 

It will be hard work for you but it wont seem like work if what you are involved in is your passion!

Keep us all posted, I'm sure there will be lots of interested parties.

Best regards

David


----------



## OPJ

ciscoeuk":1hidc201 said:


> i am taking the pluge and setting up a small business via a website, i decieded to "test the market", i will be stocking a range of DEFT tablesaws and bandsaws, deft machine parts and accessiories, also freud blades, etc and a few other makes
> 
> not sure about others bits yet starting very small, certain items will be on a made to order, with a 60 day lead time, sorry but its more cost effective to do it this way, units will come direct to your door., proberly not the best time to set up a business, but axminster started in a very small workshop,
> 
> i will be offering free demo days once a month
> 
> but i am still in research mode for shippng and costs, prices yet to be set
> still have a lot to do, further info to come! i am hoping to have a partial website up by feb '10
> 
> i would love to put an ad banner on here, depends on cost?



This sounds quite promising, provided you can get the word about early on (I'm sure wizer would buy one from you! :wink. You want to emphasise the demo days, that's a huge plus point for any potential customer. You could find out what it costs to advertise in the UK magazines (there are several of them). Best of luck with this!


----------



## Boz62

Good luck. It's always good to hear of any new business starting up. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and hope you can make a go of it.

Boz


----------



## Mr Ed

I shall be very interested to see this come together. I've been in the market for a new saw for a while now, but there doesn't seem to be one just right.

Ed


----------



## 9fingers

I wish you every success with this venture Cisco. 

With regard to advertising, the word should spread naturally on here all you need to do is make sure they are good words.

The deft reputation is established and most people are prepared to pay a sensible price for a good product with attentive after sales support.

I think you are allowed to put a website link in your sig file so each time you post there will be a reminder for readers.

Good Luck

Bob


----------



## ciscoeuk

thanks chaps for the Faith and best wishes i will keep you all informed




> I think the falling point for Richard jackson at Lyndhurst was his after sales service



i am still sorting out the best way of offering "after sales" , i think the best way is tho is to ask, 

what you guys want in after sales???? suggestion please! (time to put on the saftey helmet and DUCK! :wink

thanks


----------



## ciscoeuk

9fingers":1ds4xfs5 said:


> I wish you every success with this venture Cisco.
> 
> With regard to advertising, the word should spread naturally on here all you need to do is make sure they are good words.
> 
> The deft reputation is established and most people are prepared to pay a sensible price for a good product with attentive after sales support.
> 
> I think you are allowed to put a website link in your sig file so each time you post there will be a reminder for readers.
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> Bob



thank bob


----------



## ciscoeuk

EdSutton":306ln426 said:


> I shall be very interested to see this come together. I've been in the market for a new saw for a while now, but there doesn't seem to be one just right.
> 
> Ed



hi ed keep me in mind please

website details will posted in late jan '10, still have a lot of work to do


----------



## Mike.C

ciscoeuk":1v8uv6wq said:


> thanks chaps for the Faith and best wishes i will keep you all informed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the falling point for Richard jackson at Lyndhurst was his after sales service
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i am still sorting out the best way of offering "after sales" , i think the best way is tho is to ask,
> 
> what you want guys want in after sales???? suggestion please! (time to put on the safety helmet and DUCK! :wink
> 
> thanks
Click to expand...


If there is a problem with the product that the customer has purchased from you, make them feel that both they and the problem is your number one priority and that you will sort it out ASAP. _*And then do this to the best of your ability.*_ IMHO "That is it". If you make a customer feel that you appreciate their business, and be seen to try and help them you will have an excellent after sales/customer services department.

Another point is, if hopefully you make a success of your enterprise and take on staff, you have to make sure that they too stick to the above. I often feel that if only the boss/owner of a company was a fly on the wall of a customer services department, they would have a fit if they heard how some of their customers were treated.

There is no brain of Britain award for running a customer services department, just make the customer feel good. The trick is to actually do it.

Oh and don't what ever you do pass the buck and tell the customer that it has nothing to do with you, and that they will have to contact the manufacturer, especially if its within the 12 month warranty.

Good luck, I wish you every success. Who knows, after going to one of your open days, if the product is that good I may even sell my saw and buy a Deft. :wink: 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## StevieB

I do wish you luck with your venture. Can I ask though - if you are planning for delivery from the manufacturer to the customer, 



> not sure about others bits yet starting very small, certain items will be on a made to order, with a 60 day lead time, sorry but its more cost effective to do it this way, units will come direct to your door



With a 60 day lead time, this wil definately turn off custom. If you want full payment in advance then even more so. Rutlands took a huge amount of stick a while ago for charging credit cards when products were out of stock. You are effectively asking a customer to stump up close to a grand for a table saw with the promise of a delivery direct from China in 2 months time. If there is a problem on delivery then the customer is left trying to sort it. If it is shipped through you then you can ensure the item is complete before being shipped on to the customer. Any problems and your reputation will be the one taking the hit even though you have never even seen or touched the item concerned.

From following these threads closely it would seem that you are planning to take care of the shipping and ordering for people rather than acting as a reseller. ie you have no 'warehousing' or up front equipment costs, no financial exposure on the equipment and I am unclear how you are going to cover spares and repairs or guarantees on anything supplied. Sure as eggs is eggs someone will want to return something, and if its shipped from the manufacturer you need to be able to deal with this also - its you they are going to phone, not the shipper in China.

Not trying to knock your enterprise and I wish you every success, but both you and the customer need to know exactly what is being offered as this does not seem to be a traditional retailer-customer situation.

All the best,

Steve


----------



## jimi43

I would disagree about the customer care element initially. Your prime objective will be to stay afloat in this climate with the margins that you will have to put up with....EVERYONE expects a discount these days.

Setting up a comprehensive aftersales department that is all things to all men...(and women) and is open 24/7 is HUGELY expensive...and before you know it all your profit has gone and you are paying out to be a supplier!

This product is really good quality (should be)...then just use your expertise as an importer sorting out the door-to-door delivery. Make sure you have a SUPERB setup handbook in real English...and then be there yourself inititally 24 hours a day to help each and every buyer as you build up your client base and "good will". Reputation is paramount (as you can see by this thread!!!)

As you expand think VERY carefully before you enlarge your "customer care" department. Family is a great resource here and they don't have to be experts in your product...they will become that anyway and you are there to help them...it is the ADMIN that will stangle you otherwise.

Supply and demand and "victim of my success" are pitfalls it is all to easy to fall into.....step carefully and wisely and use all the business support from your local area.

Jim


----------



## Mike.C

jimi43":1ad9opej said:


> I would disagree about the customer care element initially. Your prime objective will be to stay afloat in this climate with the margins that you will have to put up with....EVERYONE expects a discount these days.
> 
> Setting up a comprehensive aftersales department that is all things to all men...(and women) and is open 24/7 is HUGELY expensive...and before you know it all your profit has gone and you are paying out to be a supplier!
> 
> This product is really good quality (should be)...then just use your expertise as an importer sorting out the door-to-door delivery. Make sure you have a SUPERB setup handbook in real English...and then be there yourself inititally 24 hours a day to help each and every buyer as you build up your client base and "good will". Reputation is paramount (as you can see by this thread!!!)
> 
> As you expand think VERY carefully before you enlarge your "customer care" department. Family is a great resource here and they don't have to be experts in your product...they will become that anyway and you are there to help them...it is the ADMIN that will stangle you otherwise.
> 
> Supply and demand and "victim of my success" are pitfalls it is all to easy to fall into.....step carefully and wisely and use all the business support from your local area.
> 
> Jim



No one said that he would have to set up a customer sales department that is perfect initially. He asked "What do you guys want in after sales?" No time limit, just what do we want?

But even so, if his attitude to the customer is wrong from the start, it will not take long for the word to get around, especially on this forum, where I am sure a lot of his custom COULD come from. Of course his prime objective is to stay afloat, but he needs customers to do that.

Lets face it the Deft looks good, but the only real importer has gone bust, so except for one or two owners he has no real knowledge of (1) How good the product is, and (2) how reliable the manufacturer is. So if a part goes wrong on a customers table saw and the manufacturer whether through they own fault or not is slow to send it from China, a good and favorable past contact with the customer can go along way to keeping them patient. And you don't need a flash office with a bank of telephones and loads of staff to do this. 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## devonwoody

I believe Axminster can take a long time to deliver spares. SIP talk in weeks as well on some parts. (P/T is an example)


----------



## 9fingers

Nearly all the imported machine suppliers tend to have slow spares support.

I had quotes of months from Axminster, Charnwood and Warco to name but a few.
Currently I'm waiting on an order for consumables from Warco placed in May.
Last week they told me the items were missed off the last container to arrive and the current container was at sea now and would take at least another 3 weeks before it docked. They cannot tell me if the goods are even on the manifest.

Now whilst I can understand the problem, it effectively means that Warco (in this instance but it could be any other supplier) are unable to offer good customer services because their supplier lets them down.
The only alternative is keeping huge stocks in the UK which means capital is tied up and cash is not flowing. Cashflow is VITAL to a business and is arguably the one single thing that will kill a business quickest.

With the Deft saws - there should be little need for bespoke consumables but keeping a stock of nuts bolts, bristol levers etc that fit but from UK sources should enable reasonable customer support.
Possibly be a good plan to stock a spare motor and a small stock of capacitors for it too.

Bob


----------



## ciscoeuk

9fingers":24e892h3 said:


> With the Deft saws - there should be little need for bespoke consumables but keeping a stock of nuts bolts, bristol levers etc that fit but from UK sources should enable reasonable customer support.
> Possibly be a good plan to stock a spare motor and a small stock of capacitors for it too.
> 
> Bob



this i my intention bob, 

support what i can and grow spares slowly, most eletrical switches, cables, motors can be sourced from UK market, but i prefer to order major parts from the manufacturer, then you get exactly what the machine came with, like for like!

on the after sales is that i can only promise to do my best for the customer, i don't make promises likely, i don't make promises i can't keep and i live by that code in my main IT job!

but after long discusstion with the manufacturer, i can offer a back to base 3 year warrenty from the manufacturer, this cover the hardware not moving parts that a subject to ware and tare, bearings etc, but i hoping to get the part removed

like i said i have a lot to sort out still, old saying- never put the cart before the horse, one step at a time, i could go on !, 


all the best and thanks


----------



## peter99

Ciscoe, when you say back to base and exclude moving / wearing parts on the 3 year g/tee are you meaning that the large cast items etc have to be shipped back to you (or god forbid back to base=China)?

I hate these 'this is included, that isn't included, we'll argue this is due to wear and tear, send massive bit back to us etc' type of warranties.
Better to offer a solid cover all 2 year warranty and no arguments don't you think? 

I'm interested in a Deft table saw by the way 

Cheers Peter


----------



## ciscoeuk

peter99":6ty1t4yx said:


> Ciscoe, when you say back to base and exclude moving / wearing parts on the 3 year g/tee are you meaning that the large cast items etc have to be shipped back to you (or god forbid back to base=China)?
> 
> I hate these 'this is included, that isn't included, we'll argue this is due to wear and tear, send massive bit back to us etc' type of warranties.
> Better to offer a solid cover all 2 year warranty and no arguments don't you think?
> 
> I'm interested in a Deft table saw by the way
> 
> Cheers Peter



at present that has to worked out hes quibbling over certian things i am trying to imposebu we may have to compromise

if you or any one is interest and can guarantee that you pay for a saw i can increase my order. if i can order ten units i can pass on the saving to you all who purchase

hang on and save the money!

chat soon


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Good luck, I wish you every success. Who knows, after going to one of your open days, if the product is that good I may even sell my saw and buy a Deft. :wink: 

Cheers

Mike[/quote]

Your not thinking of getting rid of your wonderful SIP saw are you Mike???


----------



## ciscoeuk

Bluekingfisher":3u1frqd1 said:


> Good luck, I wish you every success. Who knows, after going to one of your open days, if the product is that good I may even sell my saw and buy a Deft. :wink:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike



Your not thinking of getting rid of your wonderful SIP saw are you Mike???[/quote]

thanks 

BLU


----------



## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":1sajbvtb said:


> Good luck, I wish you every success. Who knows, after going to one of your open days, if the product is that good I may even sell my saw and buy a Deft. :wink:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike



Your not thinking of getting rid of your wonderful SIP saw are you Mike???[/quote]

 Ha Ha it would have to be an exceptional saw for me to part with my SIP. The old if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind. No my remark was more along the lines of if Ciscoeuk is going to risk starting a new company in this climate all on the strength's of the Deft, then if its that good I may just buy one


----------



## Bluekingfisher

No plastic on the Deft Mike? lol

I still can't understand why this type of saw (Deft) is not popular in the UK, after all the the much loved and sought after Wadkin AGS is more of the US design. I know that there have been complaints about them being heavy, but surely thats what makes them so good, no vibrations. Besides a modern mobile base makes them so simple to move around and the castor locks and floor levelling adjusters lock them rock soild.

Perhaps I'm just too much of a traditionalist, I don't like plastic and ally on my saw. just my opinion. 

Cheers 

David


----------



## peter99

No prob re. waiting
I'm in no rush for one. I'm in the middle of building a garage sized shed behind my garage for storage, knocking a doorway through and then refitting a workshop in the empty largish garage. That'll keep me busy for a few months over xmas etc. 

So don't need anything big-ish in there for a while tiill it's somewhere near done. I'll keep an eye on this thread and please pm me when you know whats what with your venture (best of luck by the way).

Haven't seen a Deft in the flesh so look forward to doing so at some point. Shall be looking at the SIP when time too. Not enough hours in the day...

Peter


----------



## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":1g5vwybc said:


> No plastic on the Deft Mike? lol
> 
> I still can't understand why this type of saw (Deft) is not popular in the UK, after all the the much loved and sought after Wadkin AGS is more of the US design. I know that there have been complaints about them being heavy, but surely thats what makes them so good, no vibrations. Besides a modern mobile base makes them so simple to move around and the castor locks and floor levelling adjusters lock them rock soild.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just too much of a traditionalist, I don't like plastic and ally on my saw. just my opinion.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> David



Where do you keep on getting this plastic from? No Plastic on the Deft, well whats the blade guard made of? Like any other saw the SIP has a few plastic parts and certainly no more then average.

As for you liking heavy weight machines, my SIP is 220KG without the sliding table and extensions and you need two people to put it together. Is that heavy enough for you?

If the SIP is such a plastic light weight why then is the old Deft a SIP clone????? https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... sc&start=0 (See Bloonose post halfway down the page) :roll: :roll: It cannot be that bad a saw if it was once a Deft. :wink:

I think that you have a SIP problem mate, maybe the Doctor can help with a few tablets :wink: 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Pete, Get with the program mate, you may recall, perhaps you don't, it was me that is the fan of the deft..... Hence this whole thread, it's only 17 pages long old timer I thought you may have cottoned on by now :wink: It was me that mentioned to YOU in an earlier post the quality and craftsman ship on the Deft and you were the one blawing about the quality of the SIP. :-k 

As far as the Deft being a clone of the SIP.... I don't know what saw you have been looking at but the deft is no clone of the SIP, in fact it's leagues above. :lol: 

If it's that great (your SIP) why are you considering buying a Deft if ciscoe imports them. Talk about fickle...your not a woman are you? :? 

I do have a problem with the SIP, Like I said I don't like plastic on a tablesaw, it's a cheap way out. But like I said only my opinion.


----------



## Harbo

As a very satisfied Deft T30 owner and I have posted this a few times before - have a look at the videos on the Laguna Web site - identical apart from the fence and crown guard.
Compare the SIP with that?


Rod


----------



## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":1lnma8v5 said:


> Pete, Get with the program mate, you may recall, perhaps you don't, it was me that is the fan of the deft..... Hence this whole thread, it's only 17 pages long old timer I thought you may have cottoned on by now :wink: It was me that mentioned to YOU in an earlier post the quality and craftsman ship on the Deft and you were the one blawing about the quality of the SIP. :-k
> 
> As far as the Deft being a clone of the SIP.... I don't know what saw you have been looking at but the deft is no clone of the SIP, in fact it's leagues above. :lol:
> 
> If it's that great (your SIP) why are you considering buying a Deft if ciscoe imports them. Talk about fickle...your not a woman are you? :?
> 
> I do have a problem with the SIP, Like I said I don't like plastic on a tablesaw, it's a cheap way out. But like I said only my opinion.



First of all its you that wants to get with the program, because my name is not Pete  

Secondly if you read my post properly and follow the link https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... sc&start=0 you will see that halfway down the page Bloonose shows the OLD Deft model sold by Lyndhurst Woodworking which except for the colour is exactly the same as a 10" SIP. (Follow the link to Bloonose post) :arrow: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... sc&start=0

Thirdly read my post again. I said that it would have to be an exceptional saw for me to part with my SIP. And if it ain't broke do not fix it. :roll:

Again I will ask a question you do not seem to want to answer WHAT PLASTIC ON THE SIP ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Except for the blade guard, fence handle etc, where is there anymore plastic then the average saw? I bet that there is not one saw made that has not got any plastic on it :wink: 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## L Harding

easy ladies, step away from the handbags!

incidentally, (and i could be completely wrong about this) but us the DEFT in the topic you linked to, said to be a badged SIP not the sliding carriage saw lyndhurst used to offer, not the T30 and T50?


----------



## wizer

Don't want to butt in on your dancing. But I'm also curious to exactly which plastic parts we are referring to (as an interested buyer of the SIP saw).


----------



## 9fingers

Good to see you back online Tom!

Keep taking the Tablets!

Bob


----------



## peter99

Think I've been brought into this, ahem, plastic discussion by accident whilst out working late and off line :shock: 

Hard hat on and hide behind the sofa......


----------



## Bluekingfisher

My apologies with regards your name.

But I think you have answered your own question with regards the plastic, fence rails, handles, knobs etc. 

I don't know what got you so worked up, it was only a bit of banter which all stemmed from the fact that the Deft saw (which I was going to purchase until the supplier went bust) was discussed by some on here regarding styling (US) and some were not in favour of this type of saw.

One of the main reasons why I did like it was because there was very little plastic on it, which as you know I am not a fan of. At this point you made reference to your SIP, whether in defence of it I don't know, but as I highlighted it was only my opinion and if you like your SIP, fair enough :ho2 .

By the way the doctor you advised me to go see has asked me to tell you he has your chill pills ready. :wink:


----------



## wizer

Still confused here. Can you please be clearer as to which plastic parts you don't like on the SIP saw? As far as I can see the only plastic on it are the saw guard and some knobs. Surely this is standard? Are the knobs and guards on the super saw and deft not plastic?


----------



## Bluekingfisher

The only plastic on the Jet Supersaw is the blade guard and the on/off buttons. If I was being flippant, the casing on the electrical flex is a form of plastic too, but not much else

All parts on the handwheels are cast, milled metal and steel, welcome to come have a look if you want.

As far as the Deft goes, I have only seen pictures but all the ones I have seen shows little evidence of plastic, could be mistaken though, my eyes are not what they once used to be. :wink:


----------



## Hoopy

wizer":omz7n5ln said:


> Still confused here. Can you please be clearer as to which plastic parts you don't like on the SIP saw? As far as I can see the only plastic on it are the saw guard and some knobs. Surely this is standard? Are the knobs and guards on the super saw and deft not plastic?



The only plastic I can find on my SIP 01446 are the two blade adjustment wheel, the crown guard and the switch gear. 

Unfortunately the height adjustment wheel broke on my saw. However, I think this was more down to the silly person delivery driver dropping the saw off the pallet.







Note the jaunty angle of the riving knife.


----------



## wizer

Bluekingfisher":33a2yra8 said:


> The only plastic on the Jet Supersaw is the blade guard and the on/off buttons. If I was being flippant, the casing on the electrical flex is a form of plastic too, but not much else
> 
> All parts on the handwheels are cast, milled metal and steel, welcome to come have a look if you want.
> 
> As far as the Deft goes, I have only seen pictures but all the ones I have seen shows little evidence of plastic, could be mistaken though, my eyes are not what they once used to be. :wink:



So it's just the plastic hand wheels on the SIP that put you off? I'm just trying to be clear on what it is you think is wrong with the SIP. As _I_ don't want to make a mistake in buying it. 

We've already agreed that the DEFT\Super Saw is in a different league to the SIP, but I'm trying to ascertain how far apart those leagues are. From what I have seen of the SIP saw, a few times, it's robust, solid with a good sized CI table. The fence rails are different in style to the american unisaw clones, but are well designed and glide freely. The rail locks positively and the indicator is clear to see. There's nothing wrong with extruded ali if it's designed and made well. I'm sure that some of the internal parts are of a lesser quality. But the parts stream is the same as the deft and no doubt the SS. As yet, I've not heard any serious issues arise with the SIP01332. 

Perhaps the thing that puts you off is the name. Which I'm sure is what puts many people off, including myself initially. The rest of their brand is low-mid range clone stock.


----------



## jimi43

I would have thought shipping something that weight with all the knobbly bits sticking out was an accident waiting to happen....

BUT...judging by the pride with which the owners of defended weapons here speak...these are probably arc welded to the frame with Kryptonite from the planet ZORG! :wink:


----------



## devonwoody

Wizer get the Axminster T/S the trunnion is bolted to the cast iron and means that nothing gets strained.
Whereas arbour to the tin frame saws move or get stressed and most probably soon go off accuracy. IMHO.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

You may well be right, the saw may perform well for you. I have had a little play with one in the past but not long enough to give an accurate review, I just felt there was something missing?

I think the photo posted by Hoopy sums up my view of this saw, again only my view, but I just think it looks tinny and crudely made, would it be too difficult to add a couple of quality handwheels and a robust NVR switch? I suppose these items could be up graded by the user but I would like to have seem them on the saw right out of the box. I think the user would be prepared to pay a little extra for such items, besides they will be used every time the saw is used

I must admit to feeling a little sheepish because it would seem I have stepped on a few peoples toes by decrying the SIP, so if I have caused offence, I apologise.


----------



## wizer

I think you're missing the point in my questions. I'm trying to ascertain what it is you don't like so I don't make a f*ck up. No toes trod, you've helped.

Tho you didn't give me a straight answer, I can only assume it is the hand wheels and the nvr switch that turned you off that saw.

Thanks for you're help


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Wizer, I can't give you a reason to buy or not to buy this saw, I haven't used one for any lenght of time to pass judgement on its qualities.

I can only equate it to buying a house, when you turn up and your first impression is NO WAY! you won't buy it, it maybe a perfectly good house, you just wouldn't want to live in it.

Only an opinion!


----------



## L Harding

i went to have a look at the SIP, i agree, it just seemed not quite what i wanted it to be, and when the guy trying to sell it to you says 'its only good as a hobby saw really', it puts you off further.

Having said that many people on here seem to be very complementary about them, and as they actually own the things, maybe their opinion should be held in a higher regard.

Luke


----------



## Bluekingfisher

The problem is Luke, we don't have much to compare them to here in the UK. We just don't have the choice. I would agree with you though, my impression of it was a "hobby" saw although I'm sure they will handle light trade, up to a point and time span :duno:


----------



## Mike.C

L Harding":3tv8xzlj said:


> i went to have a look at the SIP, i agree, it just seemed not quite what i wanted it to be, and when the guy trying to sell it to you says 'its only good as a hobby saw really', it puts you off further.
> 
> Having said that many people on here seem to be very complementary about them, and as they actually own the things, maybe their opinion should be held in a higher regard.
> 
> Luke



I know of at least two furniture making businesses that use the 12" 01446 saw, and they have been doing so for a few years. There was also a review of the same saw in one of the mags, again by a business user who rated it highly. Just because it does not look all flash and shiny does not mean its a bad saw. Mailee who is a member here uses his for business purposes too.

We could go on and on nit picking about plastic parts (of which mine has got 4) and it is most unfortunate that Hoopys was broken by the delivery driver, but with 220kg falling on it I think that even a metal wheel would have been damaged in some way.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## devonwoody

There are plenty of tablesaws to choose from but the problem is they start above £10,000, but go for the AxminsterAWs0 ////
, I dont know anyone here that has not been happy with theirs over the last five years after they have got the original setting up problems out of the way.


----------



## L Harding

i never mentioned plastic! dont bring me into that one!

As i said, an owners opinion should be held in higher regard than mine, was just my first impressions. And the words of the salesman


----------



## Mike.C

L Harding":13wjdt2x said:


> i never mentioned plastic! dont bring me into that one!
> 
> As i said, an owners opinion should be held in higher regard than mine, was just my first impressions. And the words of the salesman



Hi Luke, I am not bringing you into anything mate, I just pressed the wrong quote, sorry. :roll: 

Anyway I have had enough of plastic bits and pieces to last a lifetime :wink: 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Morning Mike,

I'm not going to bring the 'P' word into it again :wink: but I have to hold my hands up on this one I think.

I took my planer blades into my local saw sharpening store last night and the shop has some SIP machinery on display.

Pride of place was taken up by the SIP cabinet saw with sliding table. I think this one was only the 10" version. I have to say though that the styling and the finishing on the saw has improved since my last sight of one. Admitedly the handles are still plastic but the tables look well machines and finished. The fence did as you claim, locked fast although when it went over 20" it didn't glide very well, this may because it wasn't set up properly. Another feature I wasn't sure about on the fence was the shortened "secondary" rip fence. I know this is an accepted practice to reduce binding of the blade and therefore minimise kickback. Having said that I didn't get a chance to look at it fully because the shop 'assistant' came over with his preamble.

Anyway, the saw looks worthy and now looks the part (IMO). It was on sale for £643.99 + vat. The sliding table was about 3 and a half or there abouts. It looks as though the left extention wing was bolted to the right side to provide a large surface when the sliding carriage is fitted.

Does the left wing come with the package? I never got a chance to investigate fully beause of the assistant and the wife was waiting outside in the car but would have thought all that weight on the right side without additional support could put a lot of stress on the bolts holding the extentions together. 

Just a thought.


----------



## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":1bkdeasq said:


> Morning Mike,
> 
> I'm not going to bring the 'P' word into it again :wink: but I have to hold my hands up on this one I think.
> 
> I took my planer blades into my local saw sharpening store last night and the shop has some SIP machinery on display.
> 
> Pride of place was taken up by the SIP cabinet saw with sliding table. I think this one was only the 10" version. I have to say though that the styling and the finishing on the saw has improved since my last sight of one. Admitedly the handles are still plastic but the tables look well machines and finished. The fence did as you claim, locked fast although when it went over 20" it didn't glide very well, this may because it wasn't set up properly. Another feature I wasn't sure about on the fence was the shortened "secondary" rip fence. I know this is an accepted practice to reduce binding of the blade and therefore minimise kickback. Having said that I didn't get a chance to look at it fully because the shop 'assistant' came over with his preamble.
> 
> Anyway, the saw looks worthy and now looks the part (IMO). It was on sale for £643.99 + vat. The sliding table was about 3 and a half or there abouts. It looks as though the left extention wing was bolted to the right side to provide a large surface when the sliding carriage is fitted.
> 
> Does the left wing come with the package? I never got a chance to investigate fully beause of the assistant and the wife was waiting outside in the car but would have thought all that weight on the right side without additional support could put a lot of stress on the bolts holding the extentions together.
> 
> Just a thought.



Hi Mate, the P word is not in my vocabulary this early in the morning (especially when my nerves are shot from giving up smoking) so I'm glad that you didn't bring it up 

Yes the short secondary fence does look a bit odd, but as you say it is there to stop binding and most of all the dreaded kickback. The only other real option is to have a shorter main fence, but unless these are well made they can be a problem because they are only fixed and so locked at the front end.

As for the left and right hand extensions, yes both of them come with the saw, and if you buy the sliding table you can put both them on the right hand side, where I am sure you are right when you say that if they were left without support they would put a lot of strain on the bolts holding them there, and would no doubt (because of their heavy weight) bend the bolts in the end. But to stop this you do get two adjustable legs to support the weight.
In fact we were talking about this on another thread https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=37386 where HeadClansman is waiting for his saw to arrive. The trouble is because I got my sliding table with the saw I could not say if the legs come with the saw or you only get them if you buy the sliding table.

I am surprised that the dealer did not have these legs fixed to the saw, because I know that when I put both of the extensions on the right side of my table it almost tipped over. Maybe as Head Clansman said the 12" is a lot bigger then the 10", although I was sure that it was only an inch or two.
Was the sliding table fitted, because maybe that couter balanced the weight?

Cheers

Mike


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Oh dear!  Just had a read of the other thread by HC, That is my pet hate,when you go to all the bother like HC has done and then you get let down at the last minute, not to mention having to re arrange plans because some A**hole can't be jacked to do their job right. Fortunately my saw arrived dead on the button with before and after service. So I guess I now know the problems faced when dealing with rutlands.

Anyway, I never noticed to be honest if they had support legs on the SIP in my local, under the table was all stuffed with Xmas boxes and tinsle so never saw past all the commercial nonsense, but it did have the sliding attachment fitted so no doubt the legs would have been in there somewhere.

I was just having a look at the SIP saw advertisement images on various sites, the new saw, assuming it is a newer version at my local has different rise/fall/tilt handles and the body is a single colour (battleship grey ) personally I think this version looks better. I not famailiar enough with the saw to notice any other slight variations which may be added.

Fingers crossed for HC that his new toy arrives Monday, I picked up all the bits and bobs from Axminster this afternoon from the Post Office for my planer so hopefully I'll be allowed to spend some time assembling it all this weekend.

Have a good weekend mate! and stay away from the dreaded weed


----------



## jedmc571

Today I have ben looking at the Jet JTS-600

I was side by side comparing the Record TS200c and the Jet
Both have their good and bad points, but the Jet just seems to have that little extra, when you turn the handwheels, they are rock solid, almost doing the turn for you, the sliding table feels incredibly smooth, and the fact I can remove the sliding attachment means it's more accessable for people working in a garage sized workshop, and my local suplier is beating Axminsters price as well :? 

I must admit I do like the SIP, but it's a big lump, and much heavier than the Jet, but it's a great price :? 

Still not made a complete decision, but need it done befor the dreaded 2.5% vat rise  

Cheers

Jed


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Decisions, desicions!! :? I guess you'll just have to go with the one that makes you smile when you walk into your workshop  

I have always had an idea of what I wanted and the Jet was for me the closest I could come to it. Sadly I won't get a chance to play with it untill next spring because I am building a new workshop in the garden. I didn't want to lose out on it asmy particular model isn't made anymore sadly, so I'll just have to store it in the corner for a few months  

I haven't seen the JTS 600 in the flesh, but as I understand it is the newer version of mine with the slidig table. Will you have space for all that extra footprint in your workshop, although, it will be very handy if you dimention a lot of board material


----------



## Mike.C

Bluekingfisher":2a00nvze said:


> Oh dear!  Just had a read of the other thread by HC, That is my pet hate,when you go to all the bother like HC has done and then you get let down at the last minute, not to mention having to re arrange plans because some A**hole can't be jacked to do their job right. Fortunately my saw arrived dead on the button with before and after service. So I guess I now know the problems faced when dealing with rutlands.
> 
> Anyway, I never noticed to be honest if they had support legs on the SIP in my local, under the table was all stuffed with Xmas boxes and tinsle so never saw past all the commercial nonsense, but it did have the sliding attachment fitted so no doubt the legs would have been in there somewhere.
> 
> I was just having a look at the SIP saw advertisement images on various sites, the new saw, assuming it is a newer version at my local has different rise/fall/tilt handles and the body is a single colour (battleship grey ) personally I think this version looks better. I not famailiar enough with the saw to notice any other slight variations which may be added.
> 
> Fingers crossed for HC that his new toy arrives Monday, I picked up all the bits and bobs from Axminster this afternoon from the Post Office for my planer so hopefully I'll be allowed to spend some time assembling it all this weekend.
> 
> Have a good weekend mate! and stay away from the dreaded weed



Yeah it is a bit rough on Head Clansman. I really do hate it when companies let you down like that, especially when he went to all the trouble of letting them know that he would not be there to accept it in the early part of next week because of hospital appointments. And it isn't as if he just bought it yesterday, this saw was on back order.

As for the weed, yes I am still resisting it and hopefully can class myself as a non smoker :roll: 

Have a good weekend yourself.

Cheers

Mike


----------



## andyacg

This may be a little late to join in this thread but it seems like Lyndhurst has done a phoenix if indeed he ever went away. the Deft table saw has resurfaced on ebay and the seller is located not a million miles away in Wotton under edge. i was impressed with the machine so i googled it as you do and found this thread. i looked into the sellers feedback and hes been trading since 01 and has sold a few saws at around the 500-800 mark with positive feedback. i have messaged a couple of buyers just to test the water and will see what comes up.


----------



## Noel

andyacg":1sjmaxg8 said:


> This may be a little late to join in this thread but it seems like Lyndhurst has done a phoenix if indeed he ever went away. the Deft table saw has resurfaced on ebay and the seller is located not a million miles away in Wotton under edge. i was impressed with the machine so i googled it as you do and found this thread. i looked into the sellers feedback and hes been trading since 01 and has sold a few saws at around the 500-800 mark with positive feedback. i have messaged a couple of buyers just to test the water and will see what comes up.



Hmmm......


----------



## devonwoody

Noel, I would send andy a private message with some pointed questions. :wink:


----------



## andyacg

i will definitely be steering clear of this saw. if something seems too good to be true, it probably is.


----------



## Harbo

I've had one for a few years now - great saws.

Rod


----------



## andyacg

they do look like a great piece of equipment. more of a "down the road" item for me at the moment unfortunately.


----------



## 9fingers

andyacg":odnm2wgy said:


> i will definitely be steering clear of this saw. if something seems too good to be true, it probably is.



There is nothing wrong with the saws. The dealer has, shall we say, a bit of a strange way of trading.
If the price is right then the lack of any warranty is probably not an issue
If you were to turn up to collect the machine and pay cash, you should be OK.
Caveat emptor!
Bob


----------



## Harbo

They are sold in the States by Laguna, Silver City and a few others with a few differences regarding guarding and fence.

Rod


----------



## Bluekingfisher

I have one too now, had it about a year, definately a great saw for the money. I believe it's a rebadged LAGUNA saw (amongst others). Anyway, it's well made and very sturdy with slick and tuned parts.

I just had a deal of trouble with the seller and his sudden disappearance then reappearance then disappearance again.

If I need a new part I don't think i will waste my time contacting him, but so far had no trouble with it at all.


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