# Domino Jointers Are they really worth it, or just a gimic



## TRITON (20 Apr 2021)

Oh crumbs, someones having a go at Festool 

Im in a spendy mood and what to buy

A tracksaw >, might get some use out of it, but ive a table saw so maybe not
A nice extractor, maybe even one of those festool ones, or at the very least somewhere to attach my festool sander systainer to(Keeps it off the floor)
A small collection of LN planes ? edging, bench rebate, or something specialized
What about a domino jointer ?

But then I thought, I've already got a biscuit jointer(my trusty makita) so do I need another loose tenon joining machine but thought not really. sure I can see some benefits, maybe in narrower stock where the makita is of no use.
But then I thought, is there really that great a difference between a biscuit and a domino to have the luxury of owning both, and my thoughts are well not really.
Both are suitable for adding a bit of strength to an end frame or panel, both are good for small cabinet doors, either can be used to fix lipping on to ply,mdf or other veneered panel. Outwith that, doors, as in the larger type internal.external ? Well not really. I have made big doors using biscuits, but even then felt it wasnt the best idea, a tried and tested m&t would be the best bet.
In thinner stock, as in small cabinet doors, the domino doesnt appear to be the best tool and the biscuit does. They are both lose tenon joints, and in thinner stock, a thin wide tenon is i think better than a narrow.
Then theres the cost of biscuits compared to domino dowels, with the latter being rather expensive.

So overall it does about the same job.

Anyone think its just a bit over the top ?, not just initial cost, you can expect to pay high prices for Festool, but the dowel cost is over 4 times the cost of biscuits so I dont think its offering any great solution. and the two pretty much so the same job are the same strength.


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## Jameshow (20 Apr 2021)

Pass the popcorn the fights about to begin!!! 

Cheers James


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## Ollie78 (20 Apr 2021)

I have a Domino Df 700. 
I am keeping it. 
That is all.

Ollie


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## Distinterior (21 Apr 2021)

I've had the Festool DF500 for 7 years now and since then, I've never used my Elu biscuit machine ( I keep meaning to sell the Elu..!!).
It can do everything a biscuit machine can do but also joints in narrow stock. The initial cost is forgotten after you've used it a few times and although the cost of the Dominos are not cheap, the scope of sizes does open up a lot of possible jointing that would involve a lot more work if undertaken " traditionally "

Whenever I use mine, it is really satisfying when the project all comes together as accurately as you would expect.


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## TRITON (21 Apr 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I have a Domino Df 700.



Theres another point Two sizes,
Does there need to be two sizes ?, biscuit jointers dont come in 2 sizes. Both expensive, the larger 700 is about £1000, the smaller is £750 ish. Personally I cant see why they couldnt have made one machine,with maybe different sized cutters, or more adjustment, but when they're doing two it appears to be more about coining in as much as possible.


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## Peter Sefton (21 Apr 2021)

I have the DF500 and love it, great for furniture work. I will be keeping my biscuit jointers as I prefer them for panel work as they give a longer/shallower joint. If I were doing larger joinery then I would consider getting the DF700.

Cheers

Peter


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## dzj (21 Apr 2021)

A biscuit jointer is more for indexing than for making loose tenons.
A slot morticer , (or its younger cousin the Domino) does a better job. 
They can also do traditional M&Ts (the mortice part).
Whether or not you need a Domino, that depends on the joints you plan to make.


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## Doug B (21 Apr 2021)

You’ve answered your on question, if you are happy with your biscuit joiner & it accomplishes everything you do woodwork wise plus you can’t see the benefits of a domino why on earth would you consider buying one?
Personally I have both & they’ve both paid for themselves many times over so for me it’s a no brainer, but if it doesn’t suit your type of woodworking then it will be a waste of money.
I really don’t understand this whole buying expensive tools for the fun of it, whilst I’m sure a row of Lie Nielsen planes look pretty what’s the point of owning them if you put all you timber through a planer & then sand it.


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## doctor Bob (21 Apr 2021)

I have one, I like it, use it a lot but I don't consider it a game changer.


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## TRITON (21 Apr 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> If I were doing larger joinery then I would consider getting the DF700.


So nearly 2 grand outlay(for both) for something that cuts a mortice


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## NormanB (21 Apr 2021)

If you do not earn your living on the tools you do not need a ‘Domino’.
If you are a hobby woodworker and have the money- spend it as you wish.
If you do not understand or appreciate the difference between dominos and biscuits then you should probably not buy a ‘Domino’ or if you do be careful how and what you dunk in your tea.

I am a hobby/general DIY chap and bought the DF500 and have one regret (or is it a yet to be unfulfilled ambition) and that is I have not purchased the big daddy of the ‘Dominos’. Now that is a lot of coin- but my tool accumulating OCD is likely to win out in the end - after all it is only money.


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## doctor Bob (21 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> So nearly 2 grand outlay(for both) for something that cuts a mortice



As a business, that outlay is peanuts, the expensive part of the domino is the man holding it, quicker he is the cheaper it is overall. I have £300 routers set permanantly to run a 6mm round over, another for a groove, another for a chamfer, etc etc, , it's not about machine cost for me it's about man hours.


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## Doug B (21 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> Im in a spendy mood and what to buy





TRITON said:


> So nearly 2 grand outlay(for both) for something that cuts a mortice



clearly not that spendy a mood then


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## sometimewoodworker (21 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> Both are suitable for adding a bit of strength to an end frame or panel,


The general consensus is that biscuits add somewhere between little and no strength to a joint. 

They are good for alignment but are liable to telegraph due to the construction of the biscuits, specially if you sand the surface too soon.

A loose tenon adds strength and due to the material is much less likely to telegraph.6


TRITON said:


> Then theres the cost of biscuits compared to domino dowels, with the latter being rather expensive.


Making custom loose tenon stock (not dowels) is trivial, there’s no need to round the edges and if you want additional strength you can make wider tenon stock. 

There is one point with the Domino, you can very probably resell for no significant loss if you find you don’t like it.


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## mr rusty (21 Apr 2021)

I bought a 700 specifically to make a load of sash windows - I couldn't face cutting 64 haunched mortise & tenons. It worked perfectly and 3 years on all joints are still tight (in Accoya). Since then I have used it for a few doors - a couple of 14mm dominos makes a good joint, and several other jobs. I won't be parting with it!


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## Ollie78 (21 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> So nearly 2 grand outlay(for both) for something that cuts a mortice



It cuts a mortice extremely accurately, repeatably and fast. That is why it is good.

You don't really need both, you can get an adaptor for the smaller bits in the big machine. 

The initial outlay is soon recovered in a few jobs. 
I do not think about the initial outlay of tools so much, it's more about what they can do. 
Over the years I have had the domino it has cost less than £100 per year.
This is minimal when compared to spindle tooling or router bits and things like that.

Ollie


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## DiyAddict (21 Apr 2021)

I also bought a 700 recently to aid in restoring a big old, but very dilapidated house. It's a joy to use and has saved so much time. I liked it so much I bought a 500 a month later, which is equally useful. @petermillard has pointed out in one of his videos that they can also effectively be a free tool: they hold their value so well that you can get back what you paid for it If you sell it on in five years. If you decide to go for it, get one of the package deals that includes the domino sets and additional cutters. I don't have any other Festool gear, but I wouldn't be without my dominos. One more thing - they need a shop vac to work (more expense!) I use a Numatic with power takeoff and a couple of hose adaptors.


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## danst96 (21 Apr 2021)

I often look longingly at the Domino as I definitely have uses for it where i am currently using dowels with a cheap doweling jig. However I am of the belief that a domino is not justifiable (for me at least) unless I am making money from my woodwork. I favor spending the money on nice timber (ive got a ABW itch which is expensive) and rather take a little more time over the project using cheaper joinery methods.

I do hope to and intend to make money from furniture in the future and I intend to build my own kitchen from scratch in around 1 years time and i think i will get the domino for that because time will become a big factor.


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## Jacob (21 Apr 2021)

There are these things called "morticers" you know. Have they gone out of fashion?
And if you have a thicknesser you can easily make any size of "biscuit" or "domino" from free scrap wood.


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## Alpha-Dave (21 Apr 2021)

Jacob, a morticer is currently £950-£1,800 at Axminster (second hand machines aside), and takes up a large amount of bench or floor space. The domino wins on cost and upkeep, space etc. However, ‘proper joinery’ is best if that is what is needed for the job. 

We are looking at a tool that is comparable to both a £2k machine and a £60 biscuit jointer. The purpose/function of the domino is somewhere between the two. 

If all you need are biscuits, then a domino is expensive.
If you really need/want mortice&tennon joints then a domino is an ok/poor substitute.
In the middle zone, where you want the speed and convenience of a biscuit, but the strength of a mortice (up to 10 mm with the small domino, 14 with the large, and both can be stacked), then the domino is worth considering.


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## RobinBHM (21 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I really don’t understand this whole buying expensive tools for the fun of it


Are you mad?


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## Jacob (21 Apr 2021)

Alpha-Dave said:


> Jacob, a morticer is currently £950-£1,800 at Axminster (second hand machines aside), and takes up a large amount of bench or floor space. The domino wins on cost and upkeep, space etc. However, ‘proper joinery’ is best if that is what is needed for the job.
> ;;;


OK but if it's an issue they don't take up much floor space - much like a pillar drill. Not very mobile though.


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## recipio (21 Apr 2021)

The Domino excels at mortise and tenon work but you are just as likely to use it for fitting K/D fittings to sheet goods. Here I think the Lamello Zeta excels, being neater and ( a bit ) cheaper to use. I use the Beadlock jig bought from Rockler in the US which makes mortises with a drill bit so the Zeta would be first on my shopping list if I had a spare £1200 or so.


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## Spectric (21 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I have one, I like it, use it a lot but I don't consider it a game changer.


Yes but you have the advantage of a commercial workshop with skilled people so making mortice and tennons is probably something you can do in your sleep and I doubt I could make one as good as one of your worst on one of your off days. I am one of those trying to offset a skills shortage by finding and buying a suitable tool, the 700 Domino with the FC tools alignment jig delivers what my Dowelmax can but faster most of the time and glueup is much easier.


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## Spectric (21 Apr 2021)

NormanB said:


> I am a hobby/general DIY chap and bought the DF500 and have one regret (or is it a yet to be unfulfilled ambition) and that is I have not purchased the big daddy of the ‘Dominos’. Now that is a lot of coin- but my tool accumulating OCD is likely to win out in the end - after all it is only money.


Yes and we all know that there are no pockets in a shroud! If you don't spend and enjoy it then what was the point in working for it.


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## pe2dave (21 Apr 2021)

Your logic is sound. Look for another target for your money.


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## DiyAddict (21 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> Personally I cant see why they couldnt have made one machine,with maybe different sized cutters, or more adjustment, but when they're doing two it appears to be more about coining in as much as possible.



I share your frustration with this, but it's not about the coin. The 700 can dig 14mm dowels up to 70mm into the wood (compared with max. 10mm dowels, 25mm deep). That needs a lot of power and rigidity, hence extra size and weight. Now you can buy a third party adaptor for the 700 that allows it to take the smaller cutters, but putting eg. a 5mm domino into small strip of wood with a 700 is so unwieldy that you lose the accuracy. And accuracy is the whole point of these tools.

Festool have also reported that the adaptors have caused the 700 to fail, because the smaller cutters require a much higher speed, among other things. Some users have expressed scepticism of this, but I believe them, coming from an engineering background where speeds & feeds, cutter length etc. have a significant effect on the life of a machine tool.


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## Spectric (21 Apr 2021)

DiyAddict said:


> Festool have also reported that the adaptors have caused the 700 to fail, because the smaller cutters require a much higher speed,


That is a load of dogs dangly bits, nothing more than a marketing ploy. The reason you could damage a 700 using the smaller 500 cutters is by exceeding the depth, something I keep an eye on when using the 6mm cutter in my 700. Why would a 6mm need a much higher speed than an 8mm?


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## sometimewoodworker (21 Apr 2021)

DiyAddict said:


> 10mm dowels, 25mm deep


Correction between 12mm and 28mm, unless using the 4mm cutter which is shorter.


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## Keith Cocker (21 Apr 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> I have the DF500 and love it, great for furniture work. I will be keeping my biscuit jointers as I prefer them for panel work as they give a longer/shallower joint. If I were doing larger joinery then I would consider getting the DF700.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Peter



That is exactly my position. I bought the Makita Biscuit jointer first but then rapidly followed with the DF500. Wouldn't do without either.


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## DiyAddict (21 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> That is a load of dogs dangly bits, nothing more than a marketing ploy. The reason you could damage a 700 using the smaller 500 cutters is by exceeding the depth, something I keep an eye on when using the 6mm cutter in my 700. Why would a 6mm need a much higher speed than an 8mm?



As I said, 'among other things'. Festool have also mentioned different optimisations of the size/mass of cutters and how they affect the gearbox. Also, if you're using an extender, the runout at the tip of the cutter is likely to be greater than without the extender. If the extra runout is significant, this could really put extra pressure on the gearbox and cutter.

Regarding speed, it's not really about 6mm vs 8mm. I think The 500 takes 4-10mm cutters, while the 700 takes 8-14mm. So the optimisation would be the average of those two ranges: 7mm vs 11mm if my maths is correct. In reality, the speed isn't vastly different: 23,400 for the 500 vs 21,000 for the 700.

The risk of damage can be reduced by taking the precautions you've already mentioned, plus feeding in the tool gently and being sympathetic to the material you're working on (I use a lot of oak). Can you reduce the risk to zero? As I understand it, the first sign something is wrong is when the gearbox packs up completely. Until then it's difficult to quantify how much extra stress you're putting the machine under, as everything still works. I'm not saying the extender is not an option or I wouldn't have raised it, but I really don't think Festool's position of two separate models is all down to money/marketing.

Like I said, I believe Festool based on my background/experience, but others are sceptical, based on theirs. There's another thread that goes into more detail if the OP is interested:









WARNING ABOUT USING SENECA ADAPTER WITH XL700 DOMINO


I want to warn others before they get hit by a big repair bill. Using a seneca adapter (or ebay copy) with your festool XL700 domino can damage the gearbox according to festool and because its not a festool approved adapter it also voids your warranty. Festool has advised me to replace the...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## DiyAddict (21 Apr 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Correction between 12mm and 28mm, unless using the 4mm cutter which is shorter.



I stand corrected. The 500 has max 28mm depth, not 25mm as I originally stated. Still a big jump to 70mm though.


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## TRITON (21 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> clearly not that spendy a mood then


Unfortunately I cant spend all in the saving pot i collect for buying such niceties. Theres an ebike to get first, I'm hoping theres enough left over to get something to add to the woody collection. Ebike will be in the region of £4500-£5000. But if theres 700 left over then maybe I could stretch to a domino jointer, but for what it is, seems more a luxury than a necessity. 
The 500 i think is too small, but sod if im going to pay a grand for a powertool., expecially as its way over the cost of other festool kit. 
Same price as a Kapex ?. For me that shows how overpriced it is. Festool routers £600, sanders £350, the kapex as said just over 1100, then you get the equivalent of a different style biscuit jointer and its a grand.
Pricing just doesnt add up


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## monster (21 Apr 2021)

£4.5k - £5k for a bike!- Sounds like the Festool of ebikes!


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## baldkev (21 Apr 2021)

Fight fight fight fight!!!!!
 its like the old days at school, just without the spots, teenage angst and school uniform


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## TRITON (21 Apr 2021)

Aye well with bikes its very much a case of you get what you pay for and the minimum set iss really not a lot for the money
EG. A full sus bike is between £3K and X amount(4,5,6,8k)
But when you look at it component wise the 3K bike is really bottom of the range components. The brakes are minimum spec, bottom of the range shimano costing £30 an end retail, but move to a £5k and the brakes are £200 an end. Same goes with the spec of the sus bits, the shock and the fork. The 3-3500 bike sus units are retail £150-£200 a piece, but again spend a bit more like 4500-4800 and the fork retails at a grand, the shock £400, the other parts are high end so bang for buck, the more expensive bike breaks down to a sum of parts that seems more about quality than profit.

As a cyclist of some 30 years who has built most of his own bikes, i know the cost and quality of everything, and couldnt face owning an expensive bike where the components are a pile of dung, quality wise or not really fit for purpose- in my humble opinion.


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## sometimewoodworker (21 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> Pricing just doesnt add up


Your value system is interesting. You are willing to spend quite a lot on an item that’s going to depreciate fast, but not on an item that has very little, to zero, depreciation.

I suggest that you really should try out the domino, I know there are a few places where you can return it within 30 days (though maybe that’s USA only) or you may have someone local who can lend you one.

There are lots of reports of people who, once they got a domino, almost never used their biscuit jointer.

I don’t know where I could use a biscuit that I can’t use a domino, but quite a few joints that work with a domino that don’t work with biscuits.


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## TRITON (21 Apr 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Your value system is interesting. You are willing to spend quite a lot on an item that’s going to depreciate fast, but not on an item that has very little, to zero, depreciation.


The ebike ill use every day, or 5 out of 7, with some trips to the shops and back, while others are a days ride in the hills. The domino is likely a few times maybe 1/2 dozen times in a year.
As to depreciation, well thats a given to some degree, but its maybe not as bad as you think.

The bike for me is as necessary as a car, as I dontr drive, so i cant look at it with depreciation in mind. It's a means to an end, and ive a few small health niggles that mean riding is the only transport i can safely use. I've an issue with the right side tendon, but it cant be fixed, and if it snaps, due to reduced blood flow i risk losing the leg. So i need something that makes cycling easier.
But dont think that cycling is a strain on the tendon,it actually isnt and for example there i can walk 30m before the pain starts to ramp up, but i can cycle for miles and miles without any pain.


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## Distinterior (21 Apr 2021)

£4500 to £50000 on a push/electric bike...???!!!
Blimey,!....You live on a different planet to me.


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## JobandKnock (21 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> There are these things called "morticers" you know. Have they gone out of fashion?


No, but they are hardly portable, they don't really work on sheet stock (especially in the middle of a panel) and they do sort of require a shop...

I have both, plus a few other Festool tools, since buying them I really haven't used my biscuit jointer much. But then I don't use the Dominos much, either. Where they have been real time savers is in jobs like refurbishing sash windows and frame and panel doors, installing handrails, plus the occasional batch of window reveals and the like, window shutters, etc. The sort of jobs where going back to the workshop would be great - if only there was enough time.

Being one of life's cheapskates I begrudge Festoolthe cost of the Domino "dowels" and make my own from scrap


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## Peter Sefton (21 Apr 2021)

I love tradition M&T but they are a lot slower and require a higher skill level than using a Domino, so it's a non brainer for many businesses or budding home workers with limited space or experience.


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## LJM (21 Apr 2021)

Distinterior said:


> £4500 to £50000 on a push/electric bike...???!!!
> Blimey,!....You live on a different planet to me.



I live on that planet too, but the sane side, where no batteries are required, just exotic, hand built machinery (the op gets dispensation for battery use because of tendon issue and no car).

But, having seen the benefit of the domino myself, I’d suggest that it’s a useful tool for speeding up potentially lengthy joinery work, something which someone with mobility issues may we’ll benefit from.


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## Spectric (21 Apr 2021)

Back to that gearbox issue, would you not expect the 700 to have a stronger gearbox if it cuts deeper and upto 14mm domino's. It would make sense if someone decided to use larger cutters in the 500 as that would push the load beyond design intent but using smaller cutters that with the adaptor have the same overall length and ensuring the depth is no more than 25mm should be an easy time for the 700 gearbox.


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## RobinBHM (21 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> As a business, that outlay is peanuts, the expensive part of the domino is the man holding it, quicker he is the cheaper it is overall. I have £300 routers set permanantly to run a 6mm round over, another for a groove, another for a chamfer, etc etc, , it's not about machine cost for me it's about man hours.


Indeed - I bought a domino a few years back when I got a kitchen job that needed "Apple crates" -it easily paid for itself on that job.

Anyway compared to spindle moulder tooling a domino isn't much money.


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## TRITON (21 Apr 2021)

LJM said:


> I live on that planet too, but the sane side, where no batteries are required, just exotic, hand built machinery


Like this you mean  This your drill is it ? 



If you're talking bikes though I have such as you desire, and in fact am in the process of constructing a crate to send a hand built, hand welded with the welds fully dressed down,mirror polished and originally the exhibition model for an interbike show in about 2003 or such. A 6al/4v titanium disc only mtb frame, going to a forum mate on a bike forum. About £2k frame only level of titanium loveliness.


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## doctor Bob (21 Apr 2021)

I use the domino for carcasses and worktop joints.
For mortice and tenon joints I'm still stuck in the past and would rather do a "proper" M&T even if it's using a morticer.
We use many more biscuits than dominos.
I only use 2 sizes 50mm x 10 and 30mm x 5. The domino has been reliable however we hardwired it after about a year. Now on the second one after about 10 plus years.


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## DiyAddict (21 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Back to that gearbox issue, would you not expect the 700 to have a stronger gearbox if it cuts deeper and upto 14mm domino's.



Yes I do. But I can envisage a scenario where a small tool with extender causes damage. I think that during normal operation, the load is pretty much constant - the ideal scenario for machine tools. But lets say for example you're using a cheap ebay knockoff extender that isn't entirely concentric. In this case, the runout stresses the bearings and causes the cutter to wear unevenly. Then one day, not paying full attention, you feed the cutter in harshly and run into into a knot with the worn cutter tooth, and it binds. Then you have a sharp, high magnitude stress on the gearbox, and since the motor is twice the power of the 500 and feeds a lower gear ratio, it keeps on going, and the weak point of the gearbox (whatever that is) gives up.

This happens quite often with machine tools that use fibre gears for low noise. In particular milling heads, lathe headstocks and pillar drills. As it happens, I'm currently making replacement fibre gears for an Emco Milling head. (I didn't break them !) In this case, the fibre gears are 'sacrificial' to prevent greater damage.

I know my scenario is somewhat extreme, but it seems plausible to me. I also don't know what's inside the 700 gearbox, so it's equally plausible there's no sufficiently weak point, or a safety cutout circuit, and Festool are indeed fear-mongering. Likewise, if keep your wits about you, use a gentle feed, and a good quality extender, the risk of damage should be reduced so as to be almost negligible.


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## LJM (21 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> Like this you mean  This your drill is it ? View attachment 108762
> 
> 
> If you're talking bikes though I have such as you desire, and in fact am in the process of constructing a crate to send a hand built, hand welded with the welds fully dressed down,mirror polished and originally the exhibition model for an interbike show in about 2003 or such. A 6al/4v titanium disc only mtb frame, going to a forum mate on a bike forum. About £2k frame only level of titanium loveliness.



Oh, I don’t desire them, I have them. I suspect few on here would appreciate exactly why I need so many bikes, each for a subtly different terrain, each hand crafted from steel or titanium... collectively worth more than my car...


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## Spectric (21 Apr 2021)

I thought the only adaptor out there was the Sennaca one, did not realise there were cheap copies but I should not really be suprised, it seems everything these days is fair game to being copied.


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## shed9 (22 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> I thought the only adaptor out there was the Sennaca one, did not realise there were cheap copies but I should not really be suprised, it seems everything these days is fair game to being copied.


To be fair, it's just a threaded adapter and the idea itself had several origins before Seneca marketed theirs. That said, the Seneca products are well made and they are more invested in the FOG community.


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## PeteHB (22 Apr 2021)

I agonised over buying the 500 or the 700 as my immediate use called for 6mm dominos or tenons but I knew that shortly after I would want to use 8mm ones. In looking at the endless you tube videos I came across the Seneca adapter but thought it expensive for what it was plus time and importation costs so I looked around and found lots of "copies" so bought one for €35 it works fine and is well made so to anyone making the same choice go for the 700 the big one will do what the little one will but the little one won't do what the big one will.
I am currently using it with the 14mm connectors which are excellent.


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## shed9 (22 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> The 500 i think is too small, but sod if im going to pay a grand for a powertool., expecially as its way over the cost of other festool kit.
> Same price as a Kapex ?. *For me that shows how overpriced it is.* Festool routers £600, sanders £350, the kapex as said just over 1100, then you get the equivalent of a different style biscuit jointer and its a grand.*Pricing just doesnt add up*


It's simply the price of prosumer / pro kit at that part of the spectrum of tool supply is all. If you can't justify the price then you're just not in that target market.
It's really no different to an £5k ebike in a market of differing costs.

Festool is generally not in the category of a luxury spend by-product of additional funds as the value in Festool is more than the delivered tool itself.


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## urowho (22 Apr 2021)

Distinterior said:


> £4500 to £50000 on a push/electric bike...???!!!
> Blimey,!....You live on a different planet to me.


Mine was £10k. Super light weight, easy and natural to ride without battery used and a rocket when switched on. It allowed me to ride all across the Peak District during lock down without the slightest risk of not getting home after a huge all day ride. Allowing me to get up trails that would be unrideable (by anyone) otherwise. My fitness went from a VO2 max of 47 (very fit) to 59 (very very fit!) after 6 months of owning it! Also reducing the risk of falling off my perch due to covid. One of the best and most pleasurable purchases I've ever made. It is an object of small scale (and hence lack of economies of scale) engineering beauty compared with camper van or boat.

WRT to domino, of course it's not essential, there are times when there's no hurry and it's a pleasure to cut a M&T by hand. There are other times when a more workman like joint on a utilitarian product being produced in a hurry is an advantage, but never an absolute requirement.


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## Wayside2020 (22 Apr 2021)

I have used biscuits in the past on building kitchens. The joint are very weak compared to domino. For that reason I bought the 700. Great tool and with the cutter adapter I can now use all domin sizes available. I got my 700 in 2014 when they are around £750, expensive then, but well worth it for the speed you can turn jobs around in.


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## D.Stephenson (22 Apr 2021)

I’ve had the 500 since 2013 and wished I’d not waited so long to buy it! Picked up the 700 two years ago, which has been brilliant for chunkier work.
The 500 does get used most, neither have completely replaced traditional m/t joints but have certainly added speed and flexibility to my work.


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## TRITON (22 Apr 2021)

shed9 said:


> It's simply the price of prosumer / pro kit at that part of the spectrum of tool supply is all. If you can't justify the price then you're just not in that target market.
> It's really no different to an £5k ebike in a market of differing costs.
> 
> Festool is generally not in the category of a luxury spend by-product of additional funds as the value in Festool is more than the delivered tool itself.


Sorry  im more the canny Scot, and if I want something I'll just buy it but I do grind my teeth and grumble about the price.

I still reckon though that it is heavily overpriced. I think Lamello brought biscuit jointing to the market, and I expect it was as expensive then as domino is now. It would be interesting to know what its pro dewalt/makita/bosch equivalent would cost were they allowed to produce them. Probably £250

Remember its design and use - as above for utilitarian construction and its roots are in shop fitting


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## pe2dave (22 Apr 2021)

What is this 'Seneca' add-on you talk about please?


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## shed9 (22 Apr 2021)

pe2dave said:


> What is this 'Seneca' add-on you talk about please?











RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700


The RTS-500 Cutter Adapter allows mounting any of the Festool Domino cutters on the Domino XL so you can make mortises from 4mm to 14mm with your Domino XL




www.senecawoodworking.com


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## pe2dave (22 Apr 2021)

shed9 said:


> RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
> 
> 
> The RTS-500 Cutter Adapter allows mounting any of the Festool Domino cutters on the Domino XL so you can make mortises from 4mm to 14mm with your Domino XL
> ...


So it's a 'downsize' adaptor? Understood.


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## JobandKnock (22 Apr 2021)

pe2dave said:


> So it's a 'downsize' adaptor? Understood.


Yes. But Seneca also make a number of other accessories for the Domino, to my mind most notably the Domiplate which speeds up use of the DF500 considerably (see some of Peter Millard's videos on YouTube). In addition they make some other interesting add ons for Festool kit


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## Distinterior (22 Apr 2021)

I've never cut a Domino mortice with a DF700, hence my question.....

With the Seneca adapter fitted to the DF700, do you have to use it upside down in the same way as you would if the similar adaptor Seneca offer was fitted to the DF500...??

The reason I ask is, the balance of my DF500 is really nice and ergonomic, so I would imagine it must feel rather odd operating either tool with these adapters fitted.


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## hugov (22 Apr 2021)

I bought a DF500 last year, and like others here I _ummmed_ and _aahhed_ about that versus a DF700 versus perhaps a biscuit jointer for a big kitchen cabinets project. 

My research lead me to conclude that biscuit jointer would really only be useful to me for panel glue-ups as an alignment aide (they don't seem to add strength), but I find I can get perfectly fine edge glued joints without one. I don't think it'd speed things up either (for me).

Conversely, the Domino replaced dowels and mostly replaced screws for me, mostly in applications that I couldn't have used a biscuit anyway, and even if I could have, I wouldn't have trusted the resulting joint strength. 

For me, it has enabled two things that probably earn the label, "game changer".

Firstly, I'm quite lazy, and the Domino is faster than alternative joints most of the time making it much easier for me to do things properly and accurately. (Example: last weekend I made a simple plywood box to house some automated irrigation bits in the garden – screws would have done the job fine but I used dominos since that was faster and resulted in a cleaner and more accurate box ... not that it needed to be in this case!) Secondly, I can dry assemble and disassemble complex assemblies using Dominos quickly and easily, and they're fairly rigid when dry assembled. This (perhaps combined with the laziness  has greatly improved the joinery results and accuracy I'm achieving. 

As for 500 vs 700, the ergonomics were the main thing for me. I didn't have any immediate use for 12 or 14mm tenons, and knew I'd use the smaller and easier to handle tool a lot more than something bulky, heavy and ungainly. The ergonomics are really good – I especially like the "system" aspects, sharing the plug-it cable and extractor hose with my track saw (my only other Festool product), in fact enough that I'm now considering replacing my hand held router with a Festool for that reason.


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## JobandKnock (22 Apr 2021)

The DF500 isn't bad to use with a Domiplate. It takes a bit of getting used to, but the speed gains when doing boxes and carcasses make it very worthwhile for the tradesman.


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## Spectric (22 Apr 2021)

pe2dave said:


> What is this 'Seneca' add-on you talk about please?


I have and use the Senaca one for 6mm cutters, cannot see me going any smaller and it works great, I never exceed 25mm depth with this little cutter, and for me the bigger 700 is used more with 10 & 12 mm dominos but Festool would prefer I buy a 500 as well. I think the domain for the 500 is with the MDF cabinet brigade where the 28mm max depth is ok but I like the ability to go 70mm on the 700.

With the adaptor you can use it with a domi plate, the normal fence or an FC tools plate as it makes no odds, just allows the smaller cutters to be used in the larger machine.


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## Jake (22 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK but if it's an issue they don't take up much floor space - much like a pillar drill. Not very mobile though.



They also only do the mortice. The loose tenon of a domino might be inferior over the very long term (although there's an argument the multiple tenon it enables with much less effort is better with more glue surface) but with modern glues rather than boiled up fish and bone how many decades are are we talking about before we see the betterness?

A domino joint (even a multiple one) is quicker to mark up and then it is zip zip, joint done both sides.

I love to love tradition, but I'm probably going to sell my little morticer as it is just gathering dust.

In a pro situation with large numbers of repeat joints, pre-sets on a double headed tenoner and a morticer, I'd use that instead, it would feel more right.

That's not the domino target though.


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## NormanB (2 May 2021)

monster said:


> £4.5k - £5k for a bike!- Sounds like the Festool of ebikes!


My son thinks I’m mad spending so much on the Domino. If I chose to sell it I figure I would achieve good resale value.
I think he is mad replacing his iPhone every time a new model comes out, he is currently on the larger format iPhone 12 and gets a very poor trade in value on his old handset (especially if I buy it.).

It’s only money (and it’s your hard earned) and people’s needs and wants are very different. It’s certainly not going to earn much in the bank.


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## JobandKnock (2 May 2021)

NormanB said:


> My son thinks I’m mad spending so much on the Domino. If I chose to sell it I figure I would achieve good resale value.
> I think he is mad replacing his iPhone every time a new model comes out, he is currently on the larger format iPhone 12 and gets a very poor trade in value on his old handset (especially if I buy it.).


The main difference between a 6 year old iPhone in seemingly good nick and a Domino in good nick is that the iPhone is worth next to nothing (and probably doesn't work any longer) whilst the Domino is probably still worth 70 to 80% of its' original sticker price if not more. No wonder Peter Millard reckons his has cost him nothing

I seriously never considered that until it was pointed out to me in a video. I have always just thought in terms of writing stuff down over 3 to 5 years and the replacing as required


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## recipio (29 May 2021)

Conventional biscuits and dominoes need one extra tool - a sash clamp. Of course k/d festool products are available but they leave a hole in the horizontal component to be covered. I'm drawn to the Lamello Tenso clips which will allow butt and mitred joints to simply clip together. Great for wardrobes and bookshelves and I'm going to be making a lot more of those than say, workbenches. I have a Domino 500 and its great for most small projects but I would struggle to find uses for the big 700. Even if I were making doors for a house I would use profile and scribing tools for a more professional look. Horses for courses etc but the Lamello Zeta is on my shopping list.


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## ArferMo (29 May 2021)

recipio said:


> ....... I'm drawn to the Lamello Tenso clips which will allow butt and mitred joints to simply clip together. Great for wardrobes and bookshelves and I'm going to be making a lot more of those than say, workbenches. I have a Domino 500 and its great for most small projects....



Exactly this! 

The Lamello Tenso fixing is absolutely brilliant and solves so many problems. With sheet goods there is no need for anything else. I have a Domino 500 but it is mainly the Lamello Zeta that gets chosen for the job.


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## John Brown (29 May 2021)

No need to choose between biscuits or Domino. You can have both.
Original 1960's Jacobs Domino Biscuits Still in Unopened Wrapper Very Rare Find | #425211638


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## TRITON (29 May 2021)

Further reading on Dominos(thanks to the informative replies on this thread,) led to a nifty little easy to make jig on one of the YT makers. 
I think when I get time I'll give it a go. Mainly as it gives another route of construction. 



recipio said:


> Conventional biscuits and dominoes need one extra tool - a sash clamp. Of course k/d festool products are available but they leave a hole in the horizontal component to be covered. I'm drawn to the Lamello Tenso clips which will allow butt and mitred joints to simply clip together. Great for wardrobes and bookshelves and I'm going to be making a lot more of those than say, workbenches. I have a Domino 500 and its great for most small projects but I would struggle to find uses for the big 700. Even if I were making doors for a house I would use profile and scribing tools for a more professional look. Horses for courses etc but the Lamello Zeta is on my shopping list.


Something about it on one of the other vids. 


Mustn't be bias. Biscuits have their place but one should always consider all methods.


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## ArferMo (29 May 2021)

TRITON said:


> Further reading on Dominos(thanks to the informative replies on this thread,) led to a nifty little easy to make jig on one of the YT makers.
> I think when I get time I'll give it a go. Mainly as it gives another route of construction.
> 
> 
> ...



Peanuts are limited function connectors: butt joints only, pretty much. Cheap and cheerful. I used to do very similar with #10 wood screws at a slight tilt, so the countersink head would climb the pocket when driven sideways to edge join boards. That was over half a century ago and it's now been resurrected and over-hyped as peanut. 

Nuts is about right. And YouTube 'what's his face' is just making a living promoting it. He's given up the day job, remember. His video showing the peanut faster than a Zeta 2 constructing a cabinet, rather neatly neglected to fully account for the time spent making peanut's jigs. A little less than honest IMHO.


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## sometimewoodworker (30 May 2021)

ArferMo said:


> Nuts is about right. And YouTube 'what's his face' is just making a living promoting it. He's given up the day job, remember. His video showing the peanut faster than a Zeta 2 constructing a cabinet, rather neatly neglected to fully account for the time spent making peanut's jigs. A little less than honest IMHO.


Sour grapes? Ad hominem insults?
The jigs are not home made.

I doubt that the payback is remotely close to your imagined amount.

I would not use that, or your version of that, fixing method as neither suits my style. Your method requires learning how to use it (more accuracy), the peanut needs you to buy those and the jigs (more money).


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## petermillard (30 May 2021)

ArferMo said:


> Peanuts are limited function connectors: butt joints only, pretty much. Cheap and cheerful. I used to do very similar with #10 wood screws at a slight tilt, so the countersink head would climb the pocket when driven sideways to edge join boards. That was over half a century ago and it's now been resurrected and over-hyped as peanut.



Cheap & cheerful, yes - that’s the point, you don’t have to spend £1500 on a Zeta and 70p per Tenso to get a self-clamping connector. And like the Tenso, Domino, Dowel, Clamex, biscuit etc... it’s for butt and bevel joints. The carcass jig that I made in the above video, yes, that’s for the 90° butt joints that made up 95% of the work I did; nothing to stop you making one that works on bevel joints if that’s what you need. Or buying the Peanut jig. 

As for ‘it’s just a screw in a slot...’ same principle, but very different - and patented - mechanics Involved.



> Nuts is about right. And YouTube 'what's his face' is just making a living promoting it. He's given up the day job, remember. His video showing the peanut faster than a Zeta 2 constructing a cabinet, rather neatly neglected to fully account for the time spent making peanut's jigs. A little less than honest IMHO.



Yes, I stopped making fitted furniture over a year ago to concentrate on making videos - not an actual crime - but either way, yes, of course there is an expectation of payment, wether I’m making you a wardrobe or showing you how, but I’ve never taken money off anyone to make a video or promote a product, and if there is any financial benefit involved eg affiliate income, then this is clearly stated, as is required by law here in Britain.

As for the time taken in making the carcass jig, it took all of 20 minutes and was covered in a previous video. At the risk of stating the obvious, you only need to make it once for it to be effective on multiple carcasses - that’s the point of making a jig, to streamline repetitive tasks and make them easier/faster. In the above video I also didn’t allow for the marking out with the Lamello either - which was significant - but including it wouldn’t be fair as there was no marking out with the carcass jig.

As someone who’s owned a Zeta for a while - bought and paid for one fitted wardrobe, one bookcase, one alcove unit at a time - I really expected it to be better/faster/easier than ~£300s worth of jig & router lash-up - even one as finely lashed-up as mine was - but the video doesn’t lie.

For anyone thinking that a Lamello Zeta and Tenso fittings are some kind of holy grail, prepare to be a little disappointed. In my experience the Tenso fittings really don’t apply enough clamping pressure (~7kg/fitting) for any carcass to be moved/handled before the glue is dry. The Clamex fittings are immensely strong, but of course, you get an access hole that needs to be covered. ‍♂

HTH P


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (30 May 2021)

This topic comes up occasionally on various fori, and the common response is for someone to slag off biscuits after they have purchased a Domino. Generally the point is missed, in my opinion.

By choice, I built solid wood furniture using traditional joinery with hand tools. That is my go-to for quality furniture. I would not use a domino for large mortice and tenon joints - the advantage of proper M&T joinery is that one can design the joint to fit the purpose. Dominos are one shape (in different sizes) fits all.

Still, I use machines because they are the appropriate tools for preparing boards, and I have all the power tools most could wish for. That includes a Festool Domino DF500 and a DeWalt biscuit machine. Both are useful and both have strengths and weaknesses. Keep in mind that dominos are short and deep (like mortice and tenon joints) and biscuits are long and shallow (like a spline).

When I built my kitchen I used the Domino for the great many frame-and-panel doors. These needed mortice-and-tenon joints. I am presently building a couple of bedside tables, which have mitred edges. These use biscuits. The case is 19mm thick and I could not use dominos to reinforce the mitres (as the mortice would go straight through the board).

I do believe that the bad rep biscuits got was due to their being used inappropriately. They are never going to be a replacement for a loose tenon since they are too shallow. Similarly, dominos cannot replace biscuits with shallow joinery since their strength lies in their depth.

Get both machines. I am waiting for the great revival of biscuit machines, which will occur when many realised they they were hasty in getting rid of theirs! 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## ArferMo (30 May 2021)

petermillard said:


> ...snip...
> 
> Yes, I stopped making fitted furniture over a year ago to concentrate on making videos - not an actual crime - but either way, yes, of course there is an expectation of payment, wether I’m making you a wardrobe or showing you how, but I’ve never taken money off anyone to make a video or promote a product, and if there is any financial benefit involved eg affiliate income, then this is clearly stated, as is required by law here in Britain.
> ... snip ...


Yes,, and whist you were making furniture, and some useful videos along the way, we could all see your integrity but always slightly mindful you might have been hyping products. For me, and I only speak for me, knowing you have an income from the videos now - Google advertisng fees for a start - makes the videos you produce more suspect. Sorry, but that is the way it is; you've demoted yourself to become an 'influencer' with about as much credibility as Piers Morgan's left foot.

Aminster say "The Tenso is part of the Lamello Zeta connector range; it anchors in the T-slot in the 'P' system groove. This invisible fitting clamps two parts together with a tensile force of 15kg. The retention force of 25kg makes a tight connection that does away with the need for clamps. Use the Tenso with glue or with normal biscuits or other 'P' style connectors." ... so 15kg clamping force rather than 7kg petermiilard suggests. Also try using the peanut on long mitres!


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## deema (30 May 2021)

ArferMo said:


> Yes,, and whist you were making furniture, and some useful videos along the way, we could all see your integrity but always slightly mindful you might have been hyping products. For me, and I only speak for me, knowing you have an income from the videos now - Google advertisng fees for a start - makes the videos you produce more suspect. Sorry, but that is the way it is; you've demoted yourself to become an 'influencer' with about as much credibility as Piers Morgan's left foot.
> 
> Aminster say "The Tenso is part of the Lamello Zeta connector range; it anchors in the T-slot in the 'P' system groove. This invisible fitting clamps two parts together with a tensile force of 15kg. The retention force of 25kg makes a tight connection that does away with the need for clamps. Use the Tenso with glue or with normal biscuits or other 'P' style connectors." ... so 15kg clamping force rather than 7kg petermiilard suggests. Also try using the peanut on long mitres!



I‘m always intrigued by some who feel the need to personalise things. I’m very much anti Woke and believe we are all entitled to an opinion, regardless of how that may upset others, but it can always be made without it becoming personal. In my opinion thats the mark of gentlemanly behaviour.


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## JobandKnock (30 May 2021)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Get both machines. I am waiting for the great revival of biscuit machines, which will occur when many realised they they were hasty in getting rid of theirs!


If you want to extend the "range" of a BJ, Google "Knapp-Verbinder" and take a look at their range of specialist biscuit fixings.

Both the BJ and the Domino have their place, especially in low volume commercial work where they can help you stay competitive/affordable in a market (like kitchens or built-ins) that often doesn't give a rat's cuss about M&T joints or hand cut dovetails. Not all woodworking is top drawer stuff, nor does it need to be


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## TRITON (30 May 2021)

Please be aware the peanut joint is a KNOCKDOWN joint fixing, of which there have been plenty over the years and this is just the latest.
They are part of the shopfitting industry, and nothing to get upset about.

While at college all the new cabinetmaker apprentices et all would poo poo stuff like MDF, with lots of nonsense about it being this or that and having no place in 'real' furniture making.
This is of course a load of dingoes kidneys, it is a medium like many other and has properties best suited to multiple forms of construction.

Of course, by year 4, many had MDF in their final projects, especially when veneering large surfaces.


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## pe2dave (30 May 2021)

deema said:


> I‘m always intrigued by some who feel the need to personalise things. I’m very much anti Woke and believe we are all entitled to an opinion, regardless of how that may upset others, but it can always be made without it becoming personal. In my opinion thats the mark of gentlemanly behaviour.


I too am anti "woke".
Mainly 'cos I've not a clue what it means!
(Aside from that I agree with your sentiment. If you can't be polite, say nowt).


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## TRITON (30 May 2021)

Im anti woke too, usually about 8am when the alarm goes off


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## ArferMo (30 May 2021)

deema said:


> I‘m always intrigued by some who feel the need to personalise things. I’m very much anti Woke and believe we are all entitled to an opinion, regardless of how that may upset others, but it can always be made without it becoming personal. In my opinion thats the mark of gentlemanly behaviour.


Yet here here you are, posting about my personal style.


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## Stuart Moffat (30 May 2021)

I've never owned a biscuit jointer, but have had a Domino 500 for a couple of years. 18 months ago I used it to join several railway sleepers which my wife wanted to rearrange to make some bit raised borders on a concrete pad. I only used the dominos as a means to keep the sleepers in a line so that that the arrangement didn't spread with the weight of soil. A few months later she wanted to rearrange the area! These were real, old sleepers that are very heavy. The first to be moved were a pair that I had butt jointed using just a pair of 50x10 biscuiats (the largest possible in the 500 machine). I levered one end off the ground with a pickaxe and tucked a bit of wood under, and then did the same the other end. I expected that the Dominos would come apart but they didn't. I intended to put some round posts under it to roll it to where it had to go, but (probably foolish I know) a mate of mine got the other end to me and we carried them. about 10 yards. I've never carried anything so heavy. But they went into place without the joints failing. (we did roll the rest! Those Dominoes really do add some strength, not just hold stuff in line!


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## petermillard (30 May 2021)

ArferMo said:


> Yes,, and whist you were making furniture, and some useful videos along the way, we could all see your integrity but always slightly mindful you might have been hyping products. For me, and I only speak for me, knowing you have an income from the videos now - Google advertisng fees for a start - makes the videos you produce more suspect. Sorry, but that is the way it is; you've demoted yourself to become an 'influencer' with about as much credibility as Piers Morgan's left foot.



Well, leaving aside the silliness of that paragraph (I was earning money from Adsense while I was still making a living from fitted furniture, and I have no idea how much credibility Piers Morgan's left foot has - do tell) that's absolutely your right to hold those opinions, no matter how wrong or baseless they are. 



> Aminster say "The Tenso is part of the Lamello Zeta connector range; it anchors in the T-slot in the 'P' system groove. This invisible fitting clamps two parts together with a tensile force of 15kg. The retention force of 25kg makes a tight connection that does away with the need for clamps. Use the Tenso with glue or with normal biscuits or other 'P' style connectors." ... so 15kg clamping force rather than 7kg petermiilard suggests. Also try using the peanut on long mitres!



I'd have to dig out the paperwork to be sure, but I was taking my 7Kg figure from the original docs that came with my Lamello - the folks who make the machine, not the ones trying to sell you one. Or - wild idea - try watching the part of the above video where the Tenso-fitted carcass collapses under its own weight as I turn it from its end onto its base - around 09:45 - and then tell me with a straight face that that's '25Kg of retention force' per fitting, in action; that's 30 Tenso connectors in that carcass, btw, all letting go with alarming ease. 

As for Peanuts, use them, or don't - I really don't care one way or another - but as I've said repeatedly, they're an interesting connector, and an alternative that's worthy of consideration, whatever jointing system you already have in place. I'm a long term Domino user and I can't imagine being without one as it is, in my experience, the most flexible and versatile jointing system by far - but that didn't stop my buying a Lamello Zeta. And owning both didn't stop my trying the Peanut system - which incidentally, was designed for exactly that kind of awkward joint (long mitres/bevels) in the lowest-end materials imaginable.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend. P


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## TheTiddles (30 May 2021)

Oh my, someone making money from making entertaining videos, this on the back of people selling furniture for money is almost too much to bear, it is surely only days till the implosion of human society….

out of curiosity ArferMo, what do you fill your days with adding to the benefit of humanity for no charge whatsoever?


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## TRITON (30 May 2021)

petermillard said:


> Well, leaving aside the silliness of that paragraph (I was earning money from Adsense while I was still making a living from fitted furniture, and I have no idea how much credibility Piers Morgan's left foot has - do tell) that's absolutely your right to hold those opinions, no matter how wrong or baseless they are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ive just realized youre the chap in the vids  

I hope you dont mind me posting them up, but your jigs are just fantastic, and save me a power of brain fogging throwing hands in the air kicking stuff across the workshop tantrums. 

Thats a great workshop set up you have. Very planned out.
My own is a mere 120square foot, but poorly arranged to be honest. This is the problem from coming from years at a private cabinet shop which was about 1000 sqm, had everything, different rooms for finishing, machines et all. I thought all private shop were about that so it was a blessing to see yours wasnt like that but very thought out and fitted.

Keep up the good work


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## Spectric (30 May 2021)

pe2dave said:


> I too am anti "woke".
> Mainly 'cos I've not a clue what it means!


I think it is one of these modern bull shiete words that some muppet has invented to define something they did not understand, probably that weird brigade who cannot accept that humans are male, female or right angle and want to try and classify everything else in an attempt to make it acceptable.


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## reck123 (30 May 2021)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> This topic comes up occasionally on various fori, and the common response is for someone to slag off biscuits after they have purchased a Domino. Generally the point is missed, in my opinion.
> 
> By choice, I built solid wood furniture using traditional joinery with hand tools. That is my go-to for quality furniture. I would not use a domino for large mortice and tenon joints - the advantage of proper M&T joinery is that one can design the joint to fit the purpose. Dominos are one shape (in different sizes) fits all.
> 
> ...


HI Derek,

I am making bedsides all the time ( a product i sell on etsy) simple hardwood cabinet with miter constuction also with 19mm thick material. You can definitely use dominos on 19mm material miters. The trick is to remove the preset thickness stop so the fence drops down completely then lock it off. This way you are plunging the domino right at the top/thickest portion of the mitre and preventing the cutter from blowing out the otherside. you can fit a good 15mm mortise in there if you really wanted. I also find the domino on this type of cabinet construction does a better job during glueup at keeping everything aligned (if you used the paddle stops and on the tight setting) than biscuits not to mention the obvious strength benefits of using a mortise and tenon on a end to endgrain joint

cheers


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## sometimewoodworker (31 May 2021)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> The case is 19mm thick and I could not use dominos to reinforce the mitres (as the mortice would go straight through the board).


Your furniture your choice of alignment, but are you sure that the 4mm domino is too big?
I haven’t tried domino mitres but I’m pretty sure it would be OK


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## sometimewoodworker (31 May 2021)

petermillard said:


> Enjoy the rest of the weekend. P


I would treat his views with the respect they deserve, (zero) as warped and twisted as they are.

Anyone with a degree of common sense can differentiate between useful information and technique and product placement fluff. If the person making the videos is paid is not important. As an example Alex Snodgrass is hailed as a bandsaw wizard explaining the way to set up a bandsaw. (1.2million views) He is paid to do that by Carter products a company involved in the industry.

Your content is more polished than others due to your previous profession, is well thought out and presents information and techniques that are very helpful. That you got paid for your first second and now third jobs certainly doesn’t make your work any less valuable, totally the opposite as you wouldn’t have been able to continue in them and continue to get follow up work time and time again if you did a poor job.
Unfortunately some people will never see that and suffer from verbal diarrhoea using the internet as their toilet receptacle. It’s as pleasant to observe as the other version, but says more about the character of the sufferer than the object it’s directed at.
Keep up the good work and presenting good content. Thank you from Thailand I hope your weekend has as good weather as mine. 
Warm sunny weather with occasional warm, never cold, rain is something I enjoy. YMMV
TTFN


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (31 May 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Your furniture your choice of alignment, but are you sure that the 4mm domino is too big?
> I haven’t tried domino mitres but I’m pretty sure it would be OK



4mm *wide* dominos .... you need a million of them. Compared with a full size biscuit, which is considerably wider. Plus the biscuits have a little more lateral fiddle room to line up edges.



> I am making bedsides all the time ( a product i sell on etsy) simple hardwood cabinet with miter constuction also with 19mm thick material. You can definitely use dominos on 19mm material miters. The trick is to remove the preset thickness stop so the fence drops down completely then lock it off. This way you are plunging the domino right at the top/thickest portion of the mitre and preventing the cutter from blowing out the otherside.



I do fit the biscuit at the upper (thickest) edge of the mitre. Even so, it seems to be a close fit. I shall try out your suggestion next time, nevertheless. It is always good to learn something new. Still, the biscuits are easier to "fiddle" than dominos. As I mentioned earlier, biscuits are splines and dominos are loose tenons.

Here are some pics of biscuiting a mitred case (actually two). This represents my quick-and-dirty make-your-wife-happy furniture. My preference is hand tool-orientated traditional joinery, which makes up the pieces I post here fairly frequently.

The case is made up of Merbau panels, which come ready-made from the local borg (Bunnings). Mitred and cut to size, then biscuited. The work is held on the parallel guide I built for the slider of my Hammer K3 ...







The biscuit joiner needs a spacer (6mm MDF) on the fence to lower the cutter ...











Positioning the biscuit slots ...






Mid Century style bedside cabinets. The Merbau will be stained to match the Jarrah drawer front. The legs are Blue Gum (another eucalyptus), and will be stained as well. 











Regards from Perth

Derek


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## NormanB (31 May 2021)

ArferMo said:


> Peanuts are limited function connectors: butt joints only, pretty much. Cheap and cheerful. I used to do very similar with #10 wood screws at a slight tilt, so the countersink head would climb the pocket when driven sideways to edge join boards. That was over half a century ago and it's now been resurrected and over-hyped as peanut.
> 
> Nuts is about right. And YouTube 'what's his face' is just making a living promoting it. He's given up the day job, remember. His video showing the peanut faster than a Zeta 2 constructing a cabinet, rather neatly neglected to fully account for the time spent making peanut's jigs. A little less than honest IMHO.


What a typical Brit bit of nastiness.
PM has provided plenty of information FREE to viewers and always goes the extra mile to identify and review ‘cheaper alternatives’ to the higher price solutions.
He has been a great help to me and to thousands of others.
So what’s your USP? How many have you helped?. How many people have you entertained with you superb social skills- both your friends I suppose?


----------



## sometimewoodworker (31 May 2021)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> 4mm *wide* dominos .... you need a million of them. Compared with a full size biscuit, which is considerably wider. Plus the biscuits have a little more lateral fiddle room to line up edges.


4mm wide !!! What are you smoking???   That would be a dowel FFS.
There is a 4mm domino bit and you can give wiggle room by using the wide or medium setting on the domino.




If the pic isn’t clear 16 mm wide x 18mm long

EDIT TO ADD
The 4mm domino would absolutely do the job at least as well as the biscuits and would allow much more wiggle room if wanted.
I hadn’t bothered to check the sizes until just now.


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## Sgian Dubh (31 May 2021)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Here are some pics of biscuiting a mitred case (actually two). This represents my quick-and-dirty make-your-wife-happy furniture.
> 
> The biscuit joiner needs a spacer (6mm MDF) on the fence to lower the cutter ...



Interesting approach, Derek. When I biscuit mitres with my DeWalt machine I set the fence to 90 degrees to create the 45 degree corner at the intersection between the two fences and use this register the machine off the outside corner of the mitre. I've always found this method easy to set up, quick, and reliable.

I prefer this to your way, which I have used but found to be a bit tricky to prevent slippage of the machine towards the centre of the board's length which leads to misalignment. Still, if your method works for you that seems good enough to me. Slainte.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (31 May 2021)

NormanB said:


> What a typical Brit bit of nastiness.
> PM has provided plenty of information FREE to viewers and always goes the extra mile to identify and review ‘cheaper alternatives’ to the higher price solutions.
> He has been a great help to me and to thousands of others.
> So what’s your USP? How many have you helped?. How many people have you entertained with you superb social skills- both your friends I suppose?



Well said, Norman.

Peter, I much appreciate your videos. These are well presented, easy to follow, and carry an abundance of information. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## pe2dave (31 May 2021)

Enough already, enjoy your day folks, let's get back to woodwork?


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## petermillard (31 May 2021)

TRITON said:


> Ive just realized youre the chap in the vids
> 
> I hope you dont mind me posting them up, but your jigs are just fantastic, and save me a power of brain fogging throwing hands in the air kicking stuff across the workshop tantrums.
> 
> ...


 Thank you. And please, your thread - post / repost what you like! My workshop is about 280 sq ft but split into two rooms, so the actual workspace side isn’t much bigger than yours - though you can’t beat a decent chunk of storage! I had to be reasonably organised just to get thought the kind of work I did, but if it’s the workspace you have, then you have to make it work!


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## petermillard (31 May 2021)

Thanks @sometimewoodworker , @NormanB , @Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) 



pe2dave said:


> Enough already, enjoy your day folks, let's get back to woodwork?


Not sure this thread was ever about woodwork, but yes, let's give it a shot. So @TRITON, have you bought that Domino yet? 

My two-penneth, for what it's worth. The Domino's a brilliant machine - yes, it's a bit pricey but it holds it's value almost stupidly well (those annual price increases work in your favour, long-term) and does exactly the job it was designed to do. Yes, loose tenons have been around for thousands of years (Phoenicians, I think??) and 'all' the Domino does is make the cutting and alignment of loose tenons easier and faster; if you don't use that many then it's probably a luxury, if you use lots, then it will pay for itself quickly. If you have limited workshop time *and* want to get on with making things *and* have the funds, then it's a worthwhile investment - and this is where it seems to rub people up the wrong way. Festool are good at marketing themselves to what I call the 'retired doctor and dentist' hobby crowd - especially in the US - and for some reason this attracts the ire of almost half the people who’ve never seen, held, or used a Domino.

Weirdly, the other almost half who’ve never seen one, held one, or used one, seem to think it will be the answer to all their joining prayers and will instantly transform them into a master craftsman, and yes, some of them might buy a Domino and blab on about it on forums or Facebook groups, but then comfortably-fixed folks with hobbies have always done that - see also pro-grade tennis rackets, golf clubs, cameras and lenses, running shoes, etc.. etc.. all being used to a tiny fraction of their potential by folks with money to spend on something they enjoy. This takes nothing away from the effectiveness of those goods, wether they’re running shoes or power tools.

Let’s not discount the pleasure of ownership, too; I love a cheap tool, I’m a cheap tool champion, and I’ve said on many occasions that we live in a golden age of power-tool plenty. But using the Domino - or the Lamello Zeta - brings a smile to my face, using the Triton doweller, a grimace. The Mafell doweller, a kind of gritted teeth surprised expression that tries to convey the ‘turnip me this plunge is bsatard heavy’ reality of a tool that costs more than the Domino but really isn’t anything like as easy to use. 

So, buy a Domino, or don’t; if you’re a happy biscuit user, stay happy and save a few quid - quite a few quid - or make yourself the loose-tenon jig that I did recently that really is a very good, cheap and easy way to try out loose tenons and to adapt to your own requirements - and the commercial flat-pack version I’m prototyping will be better again. 

But as good as it is, it’s no Domino; you pay your money and make your choice, and I made mine a long, long time ago.

Cheers, P


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## TRITON (31 May 2021)

petermillard said:


> have you bought that Domino yet?


No. Going to be a decent extractor first. 
My prob is the workshop is in the house(3 bed flat- 2 rooms now given over to workshop- machine/working room, and smaller bedroom is the woodstore/bike room) and ive only really a small fine dust extractor which i hardly use, but the dust does get everywhere and lung condition isnt what its used to so thought maybe extraction would be a better option, than yet another machine.

I think the domino is just out of my range really. I cant justify the cost for the options it would give me. If i was back working in industry I could offset such an outlay from earned income, I used to price a job including maybe a machine or such I needed for it - Lathe, bigger saw or extra drill or something,but not working, there are other more important items I should think of first.

I'll keep saving though, maybe in the future I can find a way to get one.


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## Jake (31 May 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Your furniture your choice of alignment, but are you sure that the 4mm domino is too big?
> I haven’t tried domino mitres but I’m pretty sure it would be OK



I've done domino mitres a few times in stuff about that thickness. As long as you position the slot closer to the start rather than the tip of the mitre it works well.


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## TheTiddles (31 May 2021)

petermillard said:


> Not sure this thread was ever about woodwork, but yes, let's give it a shot. So @TRITON, have you bought that Domino yet?



he tried Screwfix but they didn’t know what the “uppy downy lefty righty router biscuit tennon machine” was


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## scooby (31 May 2021)

petermillard said:


> Thank you. And please, your thread - post / repost what you like! My workshop is about 280 sq ft but split into two rooms, so the actual workspace side isn’t much bigger than yours - though you can’t beat a decent chunk of storage! I had to be reasonably organised just to get thought the kind of work I did, but if it’s the workspace you have, then you have to make it work!


Am I imagining this or was it in one of your videos, you showed your workshop was across the road from your house? I might be getting you mixed up with someone else, but I recall my workshop envy going up a few notches when I saw that.
I really like your workshop and even the 'untidy' end is still way more tidy than mine.


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## petermillard (31 May 2021)

scooby said:


> Am I imagining this or was it in one of your videos, you showed your workshop was across the road from your house? I might be getting you mixed up with someone else, but I recall my workshop envy going up a few notches when I saw that.
> I really like your workshop and even the 'untidy' end is still way more tidy than mine.


Yep, that’s mine; it’s why I put up with its many shortcomings - an honest to goodness, small affordable commercial workspace that‘s 30 seconds away - if I have to wait to cross the road. If only it was a little bit bigger...


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## Spectric (31 May 2021)

ArferMo said:


> Peanuts are limited function connectors: butt joints only, pretty much. Cheap and cheerful.


Having watched the promotional video many times trying to get a better understanding of these things I concluded that they are fiddly, to many bits and adjustments for a limited use and I also tread carefully when a product has a name such a Peanuts, do not like something with a name that has no bearing on the product or it's function. Where does a peanut come into play, it is certainly not the cost.


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## Spectric (31 May 2021)

To answer your question, as a tool based on quality and comparing to other brands like Makita, Bosch and Dewalt then it is way over priced, if you want it's functionality and it can deliver benefits to your woodworking or business then it is reasonably priced because you have no options, there are no competative choices. I thought it could offer a faster method of joinery when compared to my Dowelmax, if I were younger then I think I would have looked at upskilling so as I could confidently produce more traditional M&T's or loose tenon joints but for some joints the domino works whilst for others it cannot get close to my Dowelmax, but the domino is great for sheet goods when used in conjunction with the FC tools DAJ. From a design aspect I believe for the 700 that rather than basing it around a biscuit jointer that it would have been better based upon a router, think about that one. 

So to conclude the domino will always be a gimic to some and a valuable asset to others, whilst for myself I just hoped it would bridge a gap in my skills, so for now the jury is still out because it failed to deliver straight out of the box and I am having to come up with work arounds.


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## Jake (31 May 2021)

You only feel let down because you imagine it has flaws which in real life do not matter. Bang the one big domino in that joint on the tight setting, glue up and move on.


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## scooby (31 May 2021)

Jake said:


> Bang the one big domino in that joint on the tight setting, glue up and move on.



That'd make a good t-shirt slogan


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## ArferMo (1 Jun 2021)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Positioning the biscuit slots ..Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



That picture is absolutely THE use-case for biscuits or Tensos. Only with the lamello you can reference off the sharp point of the mitre. Then if boards vary in thickness by a fraction of a millimetre then the joggle is inside. With Tenso as the connector you don't have to worry about having enough jigs and cramps to apply pressure across the face of the mitre.


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## Sgian Dubh (1 Jun 2021)

ArferMo said:


> Only with the lamello you can reference off the sharp point of the mitre.


I think you're in error. The DeWalt biscuit/plate jointer can also be set up to reference off the outer point of the mitre, as I described earlier, so that ability isn't exclusive to the Lamello machines. I've been doing mitre biscuits using that technique with my DeWalt for perhaps three decades, or more, now. Having said that, I've always found the Lamello machines are generally superior to any other brand I've used, although I've never owned one, just used other people's when I've worked for them from time to time. Slainte.


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## TheTiddles (1 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> Having watched the promotional video many times trying to get a better understanding of these things I concluded that they are fiddly, to many bits and adjustments for a limited use and I also tread carefully when a product has a name such a Peanuts, do not like something with a name that has no bearing on the product or it's function. Where does a peanut come into play, it is certainly not the cost.


Oh dear, you are going to find the modern world very difficult.

Still, you’ll never need to buy a domino, biscuit or peanut system for woodwork, is a screw ok or is it too far from “inclined plane rotated around a central axis” for you to make the leap?


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## ArferMo (1 Jun 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> I think you're in error. The DeWalt biscuit/plate jointer can also be set up to reference off the outer point of the mitre, as I described earlier, so that ability isn't exclusive to the Lamello machines. I've been doing mitre biscuits using that technique with my DeWalt for perhaps three decades, or more, now. Having said that, I've always found the Lamello machines are generally superior to any other brand I've used, although I've never owned one, just used other people's when I've worked for them from time to time. Slainte.


You are absolutely right; my error. And the Domino can be adapted to reference off the sharp point too; there is a YouTuber from France showing how it can be done, somewhere.
EDIT: now found the YT Video. Pardon, la vidéo est en français. See 3:40 for the short of time.


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## ArferMo (1 Jun 2021)

petermillard said:


> ...snip...
> Well, leaving aside the silliness of that paragraph (I was earning money from Adsense while I was still making a living from fitted furniture, and I have no idea how much credibility Piers Morgan's left foot has - do tell) that's absolutely your right to hold those opinions, no matter how wrong or baseless they are.
> ...snip....


Heaven forfend anyone should seek the audacious deployment of simile and metaphor on this forum; it might upset the concrete thinkers.


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## Chippyjoe (1 Jun 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Oh dear, you are going to find the modern world very difficult.
> 
> Still, you’ll never need to buy a domino, biscuit or peanut system for woodwork, is a screw ok or is it too far from “inclined plane rotated around a central axis” for you to make the leap?




Well said


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## TRITON (4 Jun 2021)

How long do patents last, before other companies can make use of the technology before launching their own version ?. I seem to remember it's something like 20 years.
Leading to the next question of how long has the domino machine been in use*.

*Again, seem to remember its something like 2005 or 2006  so maybe in 5 years we'll start seeing more versions on the market, and no doubt a considerable drop in price.


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## JobandKnock (4 Jun 2021)

If they are anywhere near as "good" as that knock-off of the DuoDoweller then I can't wait........ [sarcasm mode off]


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## petermillard (4 Jun 2021)

TRITON said:


> How long do patents last, before other companies can make use of the technology before launching their own version ?. I seem to remember it's something like 20 years... Again, seem to remember its something like 2005 or 2006  so maybe in 5 years we'll start seeing more versions on the market, and no doubt a considerable drop in price.



20 years from the first filing, so perhaps as early as 2024?? But I think it’ll play out more like the tracksaw market; established manufacturers first, coming in at the same - or slightly lower - price point that Festool have established. Then, years after, we get OK quality copies, before finally after a decade or so we get genuinely useful budget options.

Except of course, saws - even plunge saws - are relatively simple compared with something like a domino.

As @JobandKnock says above, look at the attempts to copy the duo-doweller - literally two drill bits, all you have to do is make sure that point in the same direction and engineer a halfway-decent fence - but the likes of Triton can’t even manage that after how many years of trying? So, given the relative complexity, engineering-wise, of the Domino I don’t see it working out for the budget makers, certainly not for a while.


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## danst96 (4 Jun 2021)

petermillard said:


> 20 years from the first filing, so perhaps as early as 2024?? But I think it’ll play out more like the tracksaw market; established manufacturers first, coming in at the same - or slightly lower - price point that Festool have established. Then, years after, we get OK quality copies, before finally after a decade or so we get genuinely useful budget options.
> 
> Except of course, saws - even plunge saws - are relatively simple compared with something like a domino.
> 
> As @JobandKnock says above, look at the attempts to copy the duo-doweller - literally two drill bits, all you have to do is make sure that point in the same direction and engineer a halfway-decent fence - but the likes of Triton can’t even manage that after how many years of trying? So, given the relative complexity, engineering-wise, of the Domino I don’t see it working out for the budget makers, certainly not for a while.


I just bought a domino today so I hope you are right .


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## Jake (4 Jun 2021)

What are these patents anyway? Oscillating and drilling to make mortices isn't it as that is as old as the hills for stationary machines. It's difficult to think of what else could be essential to re-engineering the same result.


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## TheTiddles (4 Jun 2021)

Jake said:


> What are these patents anyway? Oscillating and drilling to make mortices isn't it as that is as old as the hills for stationary machines. It's difficult to think of what else could be essential to re-engineering the same result.


If that was the case, they wouldn’t have a patent or any clout when it came to enforcing it, which isn’t evident from the number of competing designs available on the market.
Even a simple thing like a pencil has a lot of technology involved in its making and distribution, it’s just not evident from the outside.


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## Jake (4 Jun 2021)

Thanks for the doubt. A quickly found example: * Wyckmans & National oscillating drill Mortiser (auctelia.com) *


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## Jake (4 Jun 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Even a simple thing like a pencil has a lot of technology involved in its making and distribution, it’s just not evident from the outside.



That bit isn't in issue as far as anything I have said (or thought) is concerned. Festool are really well engineered tools, and I am fortunate to have both versions, they are great tools. I just find it hard to see what unique qualities they have which are both patentable and would prevent parallel engineering.


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## Jake (4 Jun 2021)

Here's the patent because my curiosity was piqued

Espacenet – search results


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## Spectric (4 Jun 2021)

I wonder how the patent would standup if a competitor made a loose tenon router mortiser? To visualise this think of the Domino being based on the principle layout of a biscuit joiner, it's plunge methodology is the same except it has some Dna from a hedge trimmer, only the cutting method is different. Now take this cutting principle but apply to a plunge router with two handles, turret type depth stop and even a router style collet along with a router style fence and you now have a different beast, and think of using it with a guide bush & fence, alignment becomes very easy.


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## Jake (4 Jun 2021)

DNA from a hedge trimmer is a bit like a Maka morticer (edit that's not actually correct, as a Maka oscillates unlike a hedge trimmer).


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## sometimewoodworker (5 Jun 2021)

Jake said:


> What are these patents anyway? Oscillating and drilling to make mortices isn't it as that is as old as the hills for stationary machines. It's difficult to think of what else could be essential to re-engineering the same result.


Mobile!?


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## Distinterior (5 Jun 2021)

Compact..? Portable..?


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## MadMental (5 Jun 2021)

TRITON said:


> How long do patents last, before other companies can make use of the technology before launching their own version ?. I seem to remember it's something like 20 years.
> Leading to the next question of how long has the domino machine been in use*.
> 
> *Again, seem to remember its something like 2005 or 2006  so maybe in 5 years we'll start seeing more versions on the market, and no doubt a considerable drop in price.


China can usualy make copys of new tools within a day


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## TheTiddles (5 Jun 2021)

Jake said:


> Here's the patent because my curiosity was piqued
> 
> Espacenet – search results


I believe you found your own answer there!


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## danst96 (5 Jun 2021)

MadMental said:


> China can usualy make copys of new tools within a day


Rubbish chisels yes, a worthy copy of a quality piece of machinery, no. Chinese are masters of ripping stuff off but they aren't always worth it.


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## TheTiddles (5 Jun 2021)

MadMental said:


> China can usualy make copys of new tools within a day


Go on, give an example please?


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## danst96 (5 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Rubbish chisels yes, a worthy copy of a quality piece of machinery, no. Chinese are masters of ripping stuff off but they aren't always worth it.


Further more, Chinese companies generally pay no attention to patents or IP of western companies and it's very hard to hold Chinese responsible for this so if they were able to make a copy they would have done it already.


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## Doug71 (5 Jun 2021)

Some more Festool patents if anyone interested, they do like to overengineer stuff.


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## Jake (5 Jun 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> I believe you found your own answer there!



Yes, well, that is why I looked for it. I reckon most of those claims could be engineered around and/or challenged if anyone cared. One of them is that the cutter comes out of a slot. OK that's solid.


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## TheTiddles (5 Jun 2021)

Jake said:


> Yes, well, that is why I looked for it. I reckon most of those claims could be engineered around and/or challenged if anyone cared. One of them is that the cutter comes out of a slot. OK that's solid.


Well, I’m sure there are companies who would pay you for that knowledge, perhaps the plethora of power tool companies who all make circular saws, angle grinders, impact drivers, drills and the other types of tools that you can choose one manufacturer from 20 or more options are just missing that.

Alternatively, maybe it’s not quite that easy?


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## Jake (5 Jun 2021)

I've done a fair bit of patent law in my time Mr Tiddles. Might not be an engineer but I can recognise a flimsy claim.

I think the reason they haven't been engineered around is the market for them is limited. I guess we will find out in 2024 when by your logic there will be at least 20 different versions coming out.


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## TheTiddles (5 Jun 2021)

That’s an interesting thought.


Power tools are almost a commodity item, there’s little IP in cordless drills etc… the outliers seem to be rail saws (but that’s almost gone now) and this one item left that only Festool make (can’t think of any others, I’m open to suggestions). Comparisons with biscuit jointers abound and whilst they are different, there are many similarities and many companies make those, is the market for them large, yet for this other similar number device small, despite how much many makers rate them?

In future will we associate the loose tennon jointer with the company that circumvented the IP of the inventor and undercut them in the way we do James Watt over James Picard?


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## TRITON (5 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Further more, Chinese companies generally pay no attention to patents or IP of western companies and it's very hard to hold Chinese responsible for this so if they were able to make a copy they would have done it already.


I think you mean, some individual companies within China, rather than an all encompassing 'China'.


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## danst96 (5 Jun 2021)

TRITON said:


> I think you mean, some individual companies within China, rather than an all encompassing 'China'.


Tell me a world leading product in its class that was designed in China. China's economy is built on reproducing Western products. This is either through Western companies moving their production there or Chinese companies "repurposing" western designs and IP. I work for a company placing millions of pounds of business to China every year and see it in action all the time.


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## Jake (6 Jun 2021)

..


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## Jake (6 Jun 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Power tools are almost a commodity item, there’s little IP in cordless drills etc… the outliers seem to be rail saws (but that’s almost gone now) and this one item left that only Festool make (can’t think of any others, I’m open to suggestions). Comparisons with biscuit jointers abound and whilst they are different, there are many similarities and many companies make those, is the market for them large, yet for this other similar number device small, despite how much many makers rate them?



Duo-Doweller now has the Triton copy and that's it so far, but obviously that was/is less popular so even more niche. It's also lot simpler to build a cheap copy of that than a domino or domino-equivalent, I imagine.

The biscuit jointer is an interesting comparison - Lamello launched their first handheld one in 1968. Virutex were apparently the first copy-cat in 1982 ('just' 14 years). I have no idea what patents Lamello had over their machine though, but in many ways it seems more genuinely inventive than the Domino which is a smart amalgam of the biscuit jointer (as modified by notoriously borrowing Mafell's DD40 fence pins until beating a hasty retreat to the wedges) and those old style stationary oscillating drill morticers. That's not to denigrate the domino system or machines or the ingenuity or engineering or execution or business savvy etc, but the pure technical innovation doesn't seem that great a step to me. I imagine there's some pretty cute engineering in the gearbox but the insides of that aren't covered in those patents at least.

Like I say, we'll see in March or so 2024. Patent expiry will obviously lower the barriers to entry by making it easier and less risky.

I'll being hanging on to the blue and green ones anyway, they'll see me out unless I'm very unlucky.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (6 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Tell me a world leading product in its class that was designed in China. ....



The Harvey Gyro Air dust collector ... 















Tool Review: Harvey Machinery’s Gyro Air G700 - FineWoodworking


If you have machinery in your shop, you need a dust collector, and the best type to have is a cyclone, which separates the chips from the airflow before it […]




www.finewoodworking.com





Regards from Perth

Derek


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## JobandKnock (6 Jun 2021)

"While you talk about the quality of your wares, you have your cheaper competitor where he cannot touch you. The breach between you is longer than his arm. When you begin to talk about prices, you are absolutely at his mercy. *There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man’s lawful prey.* This is the doctrine of commercial foreordination, against which it is useless to contend."

J. A. Richards (from the February 1901 issue of “Profitable Advertising: The Advertiser’s Trade Journal” although it might have been in circulation at that time)


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## JobandKnock (6 Jun 2021)

Jake said:


> Duo-Doweller now has the Triton copy and that's it so far, but obviously that was/is less popular so even more niche.


The copy was also sold in red for a while by Freud and there were several no-name variants around for a while as well. All the copies suffer from accuracy issues.



Jake said:


> The biscuit jointer is an interesting comparison - Lamello launched their first handheld one in 1968. Virutex were apparently the first copy-cat in 1982 ('just' 14 years).


In point of fact the Elu DS140 swing type biscuit jointer, which came on the market in or before 1981 (the year I bought mine) was an exercise in patent avoidance which Bosch subsequently borrowed heavily from for their first (unsuccesfiul) BJ. The DS140 was robust and accurate tool, so is the Virutex. How many of the Chinese copies are? I now await a copy of the Zeta.


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## JobandKnock (6 Jun 2021)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> The Harvey Gyro Air dust collector ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Although it has to be said that the principles of cyclic separation have been in common use since before WWII and wasn't the cone one of Dyson's ideas?


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## Doug B (6 Jun 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> That’s an interesting thought.
> 
> 
> Power tools are almost a commodity item, there’s little IP in cordless drills etc… the outliers seem to be rail saws (but that’s almost gone now) and this one item left that only Festool make (can’t think of any others, I’m open to suggestions).



off the top off my head the Festool shaper origin,


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## Jake (6 Jun 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> In point of fact the Elu DS140 swing type biscuit jointer, which came on the market in or before 1981 (the year I bought mine) was an exercise in patent avoidance which Bosch subsequently borrowed heavily from for their first (unsuccesfiul) BJ.



Good point, I'd forgotten that one, IIRC Porter Cable copied the swing one too.

I guess the Virutex might have been licensed.


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## Jake (6 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> off the top off my head the Festool shaper origin,



LS130 (really niche uses though) and RO90 (opposite, fantastic machine).


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## JobandKnock (6 Jun 2021)

Jake said:


> I guess the Virutex might have been licensed.


Not sure. Virutex certainly copied a number of Elu designs, e.g.the CE24 planer (a copy of the Elu MFF40) and the 8mm plunge routers (in fact a bought-in Perles-made copy of the Elu MOF96 plunge router). In the 1990s they also made a jigsaw with a ceramic blade guide system not unlike the first Festo jigsaws of the same ilk, so copy or licensed? (Even Bosch got in on this act by bringing out their own ceramic guide jigsaw, the GST135B which was a good jigsaw, but which did cook blades). Then there's a whole slew of Virutex sanders and planers which are the spitting image of some of Makita's models. A really curious company, especially when you consider some of their own unique products, such as a tilting plunge router, tilting laminatecl trimmer, compass power planer, abrasive planer, etc

Virutex hot their teal livery colour from Makita (as did Wolf in the UK, potentially) and Makita are known to have licensed their plunge saw technology along with the Systainer carrying case design they now use from TTI/Festool



Jake said:


> LS130 (really niche uses though) and RO90 (opposite, fantastic machine).


Well, in-line pneumatic (as opposed to electric) sanders like the LS130 aren't unknown and I believe that Sengar in Halifax were making them back in the 1940s. The Rotex line is also interesting, but Metabo have made their own variable orbit ROS for more than 15 years, now being into their 2nd generation, so not as unique as all that

Nothing new under the sun?


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## Spectric (6 Jun 2021)

Jake said:


> I think the reason they haven't been engineered around is the market for them is limited.


I think this could be a reason, it is not an essential tool like say a cordless drill and sits in a niche market, they may have done their sums and just cannot see a profit so to them it is a gimmick. But if they produced a far supperior version for less than half the cost of a Domino would there be a stampede of buyers? What you don't want is the opposite, like the Triton doweler



danst96 said:


> China's economy is built on reproducing Western products


Yes and no, China's engineering can be what ever you want it to be, the money is in production and sales not research and development so no point in re inventing the wheel. The reason a lot of people think of Chinese products as inferior is because we are buying items from companies that have had the Chinese make the product to a price to give them a good profit margin, if they raised the price then they could increase the quality.


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## sometimewoodworker (6 Jun 2021)

A point that seems to be overlooked is that along with the high prices of Festool, Mafell, Hilti etc comes the quality that is such a pleasure to use year after year. Once the patents lapse other makers will be able to produce tools that incorporate the drill & swing of the domino but the quality of tool is not cheap. 
You can buy a TS55 or an Aldi special. The TS55 is expensive but will still be going strong producing accurate cuts after daily use 10~20 years from now, with similar use when will the Aldi saw die but much more importantly when will it stop being accurate?

Festool products, in general, provide quality that matches the prices charged and maintain that quality over time.

An Aldi tool probably provides an initial better quality than the price but that falls away. So they will get good reviews as nobody's doing long term testing.


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## JobandKnock (6 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> China's engineering can be what ever you want it to be...
> 
> ... if they raised the price then they could increase the quality.


That much is evidenced by products such as the Wood River planes which put modern Records and Stanleys to shame. Hardly innovative, though


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## danst96 (6 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes and no, China's engineering can be what ever you want it to be, the money is in production and sales not research and development so no point in re inventing the wheel.


Yes correct and as you say it's often driven by Western companies looking to improve profit margins and therefore moving production out there. I agree that many products from China are very well made but they are normally made to an existing specification or as a direct rip off of another product. My point was that China rarely innovates. Maybe the chopsticks(?) but I struggle to think of many more exclusively unique modern products that have come out of China


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## danst96 (6 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> You can buy a TS55 or an Aldi special. The TS55 is expensive but will still be going strong producing accurate cuts after daily use 10~20 years from now


Case in point right here. I'm not sure of the exact vintage of this but I think it's early 90s. It is my uncles and it's still going strong and I use it almost every day


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## sometimewoodworker (6 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> The reason a lot of people think of Chinese products as inferior is because we are buying items from companies that have had the Chinese make the product to a price to give them a good profit margin, if they raised the price then they could increase the quality.


Well said. A prime example is Apple. High quality (along with high price) all produced in China.


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## JobandKnock (6 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Case in point right here. I'm not sure of the exact vintage of this but I think it's early 90s. It is my uncles and it's still going strong and I use it almost every day


And for me that raises the question of plunge saws and rails. Festo certainly patented the rail system, but I can recall Holz-Her producing a number on non-rail mounted plunge saws in the 1970s (such as the Mosquito, variants of which were sold by Bosch) whilst in the same period both Elu and Mafell made small blade plunging panel material saws with tiny 125mm blades. Designed to break down plywood and chipboard


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## sometimewoodworker (6 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Case in point right here. I'm not sure of the exact vintage of this but I think it's early 90s. It is my uncles and it's still going strong and I use it almost every day


The only date for sure is that Festo changed to Festool in 2000 so before then


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## JobandKnock (6 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> I'm not sure of the exact vintage of this but I think it's early 90s.


Sounds about right. Festo power tools in the 1970s were bright yellow, the change to black was made in late 1970s. The AXF45 and AT55e saws are both from that era (introduced 1980) and the rubber anti-splinter strips were patented in 1982. Systainers actually appeared in 1993, and the version 2 aluminium guide rail with two joiners as opposed to one appeared in 2003, the year that the TS55 first appeared. That would probably place your saw as 1993 to 2003.

TBH a lot of this is on the Festool web site, but some of it is from memory. I can remember getting a Festo catalogue 1984 - the dealer/distributor were in West Bromwich but the prices were eye watering. I recall that the main things they made at that point were sanders and saws (no routers or planers in the catalogue), but 230 volt only - no 110 volt for site use in the UK, which made them NBG for me


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## TRITON (6 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Tell me a world leading product in its class that was designed in China. China's economy is built on reproducing Western products. This is either through Western companies moving their production there or Chinese companies "repurposing" western designs and IP. I work for a company placing millions of pounds of business to China every year and see it in action all the time.


Yup i see that now. I had a google and theres a term for it in China for coping someone elses ideas. 




__





The origins of China’s copycat culture






www.global-briefing.org





" Isaac Newton once said “If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.” "


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## Spectric (6 Jun 2021)

Anyone thought about the relationship between skills and tools, coming out with what we now perceive as a great tool may have just been a flop in the days it was originaly thought of as the trade then may not have seen any need to spend the money. There was a day when many tools brought by an apprentice would have seen them through a large part of there career, they did amazing work with far fewer tools and a lot more physical work. I believe we are now at such a faster pace of living that we all want things done quicker and cheaper and this has driven a lot of the modern tool ideas, a lot could be done the old way but people just would not swallow the cost, this sector has become a niche for the very wealthy. The tool OEM's are also looking at making task easier because one way of saving money is to de skill a trade, ie push fit plastic plumbing could be fitted by Gonzo and only takes a fraction of the time required compared to a skilled plumber using copper and a bender. This concept goes down the pan when you find that the gas has also been done in plastic pushfit because Gonzo has no qualifications and cannot see the issues.


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## dzj (6 Jun 2021)

When I was a kid, people use to say the Japanese could only make beads, trinkets and transistor radios. 
Not a creative bone in their body.
Who in their right mind would say a thing like that nowadays?


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## JobandKnock (6 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> ...one way of saving money is to de skill a trade, ie push fit plastic plumbing could be fitted by Gonzo and only takes a fraction of the time required compared to a skilled plumber using copper and a bender.


On the flip side of that, copper prices have continued to rise and construction has always been about reduction of cost - so we now have crimped composite (metal/plastic) pipework for water and heating (although large diameter heating pipes are often still done in iron and steel - push fit is unreliable and has disappeared from big projects) with solvent weld for plastic wastes. These technologies are faster and more reliable than older methods but it means that modern plumbers need deep pockets to buy the crimpers whilst they still need to be able to braze copper, etc. Perhaps it's just the small works part of the trade which is being deskilled?


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## MikeJhn (7 Jun 2021)

It has always been find a way to reduce cost's in construction, hence dot and dab plasterboard on walls, initially used only on ceilings nailed to joists, and the invention of T&E cable only used in the UK or its territories.


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## Ian down london way (7 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> off the top off my head the Festool shaper origin,


I have one of those. Amazing machine. However Origin was bought out by festools - Origin was a Kickstarter-type
Of development by a couple of very talented developers in USA. (The motor of the origin is festools).


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## sploo (7 Jun 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Although it has to be said that the principles of cyclic separation have been in common use since before WWII and wasn't the cone one of Dyson's ideas?


Yep - cyclonic separation has been around for ages (used with deliberately turbulence-inducing internal protrusions to help split and separate wheat from chaff).

The Harvey Gyro is quite interesting though; in that it uses an initial stage (that doesn't induce spinning in the air) to separate the larger chips, then a second cyclonic stage to separate the finer material. Jet make a (possibly patent-avoiding) horizontal separator that just has the second stage; but from reports I've seen it tends to clog the fins a lot.

That said, if you could get hold of the Jet separator then I think the (missing) initial stage would be easier to DIY. From images I'd guess it's using the Coandă Effect to keep the air attached to a double cone (a bit like a smooth diamond shape), whilst the change in direction throws the larger chips outwards.

I don't know if the originators of the Harvey actually designed that two stage separation system, but it's interesting nonetheless.


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## NormanB (7 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> Well said. A prime example is Apple. High quality (along with high price) all produced in China.


Such high quality the product has a life of 5 years tops (the non user changeable battery about half of that).


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## danst96 (7 Jun 2021)

NormanB said:


> Such high quality the product has a life of 5 years tops (the non user changeable battery about half of that).


Built in such a high quality factory with such excellent working conditions that they have to put nets at each floor level on the central stair case to stop their workers jumping down.


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## Doug B (7 Jun 2021)

NormanB said:


> Such high quality the product has a life of 5 years tops (the non user changeable battery about half of that).


Shhhh  don’t tell my iPad that I bought it in 2013 & my iPhone 4 before that, nobody must have told them they’re only supposed to last 5 years.


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## NormanB (7 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> Shhhh  don’t tell my iPad that I bought it in 2013 & my iPhone 4 before that, nobody must have told them they’re only supposed to last 5 years.


I meant 5 years of use (not ownership).


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## sometimewoodworker (7 Jun 2021)

NormanB said:


> Such high quality the product has a life of 5 years tops (the non user changeable battery about half of that).


Really!!! You are thinking of the windows products.
I have an Mac mini that’s in use 24/7/365 that’s 12 years old, another that’s around 16 years old a couple of iPods that are about 12 years old an iPad that’s 10 years old and a MacBook Pro that 12 years old. Those are a small selection all are still functional. Also that doesn’t include the airports and airport express WiFi base stations also in use 24/7/365


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## Doug B (7 Jun 2021)

NormanB said:


> I meant 5 years of use (not ownership).


But they’ve been used everyday since I got them


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## MikeK (7 Jun 2021)

NormanB said:


> I meant 5 years of use (not ownership).


My wife's iPhone 4s, bought new in November 2011, was retired last month for a new iPhone 12 after nearly nine and a half years of continuous service. The only reason we are replacing it is because the 4s is no longer supported with updates and Telekom gave us a great deal on a new phone. However, the 4s still works perfectly and has never had a battery change. The MacBook Pro I'm using to type this reply is a mid-2009 version that I bought new in August 2009 has been in continuous service on the same battery.

The only Windows computer I have is an HP laptop that I bought two years ago to run a software package that is not available for the Mac. It is on its second battery.


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## TheTiddles (7 Jun 2021)

Ah the old cliche, people complaining about mass-produced Chinese made products… using mass-produced Chinese made products to do so.

The irony is as lost to them as the phenomenal quality of the engineering that sits in their hands.


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## ivan (7 Jun 2021)

A clip from FineWoodworking #203, biscuits not so weedy after all?


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## JobandKnock (7 Jun 2021)

danst96 said:


> Built in such a high quality factory with such excellent working conditions that they have to put nets at each floor level on the central stair case to stop their workers jumping down.


Jumping down or committing suicide?


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## sploo (7 Jun 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Jumping down or committing suicide?


Suicide. There have been quite a few unpleasant stories about workers in Chinese plants jumping off buildings (Foxconn having come up a few times). You get the usual "terrible, awful, will look into it, demand good conditions" type press releases from the western companies whose products they're making, then it goes back to normal once people are looking the other way.

I'm typing this on a phone likely made in China, so I'll concede the hypocrisy of being on a high horse...


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## dzj (8 Jun 2021)

ivan said:


> A clip from FineWoodworking #203, biscuits not so weedy after all?



Interesting that a half lap would fare better than a bridle joint. The latter having double the glue surfaces of the half lap.


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## Doug B (8 Jun 2021)

dzj said:


> Interesting that a half lap would fare better than a bridle joint. The latter having double the glue surfaces of the half lap.


To be honest I take all those sorts of tables with a pinch of salt, I read one we’re dowels were “proved“ to be stronger than dominos but in truth the lateral surface glue area of both fixings tested was directly proportional to the results, they just used more dowels with a greater lateral glue area in the test joint.


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## ivan (9 Jun 2021)

The table was clipped from a long article which carried full details of all the joints. They were all at 90 deg making an L shape which was racked under a press.
The main mode of failure was through a split in the piece carrying the mortice, which commenced at the outside of the joint, and tended to come at the end of the "tenon"/biscuit. The authors were surprised at the winners, especially the splined mitre, which was in no way unusually constructed. The thin tenon, and the bridle joint failed when the "tenon" snapped under tension at the shoulder, the glue mainly still holding. The Domino lost out as the domino tenon used was a bit short for the 50mm wide timber whilst the loose tenon was in a max depth pair of mortices.

They also pointed out that the results may well be different after a few years of (moisture) movement, or indeed exposure to the elements


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## Spectric (9 Jun 2021)

Doug B said:


> I read one we’re dowels were “proved“ to be stronger than dominos but in truth the lateral surface glue area of both fixings tested was directly proportional to the results, they just used more dowels with a greater lateral glue area in the test joint.


It is very easy to place two rows of 10mm dowels with precision using a dowelmax jig, it is not so easy to place multiple dominos without using the sloppy setting so it is not suprising that the dowel joints come out stronger. If you could place the Domino's as easy then they would be stronger, as yet I have got some ideas using the FCC tools alignment jig and spacers on the plate but not 100% yet. The placing using the dowelmax is just easy but slow.


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## pe2dave (9 Jun 2021)

Doesn't take long before a thread drifts off topic.


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## JobandKnock (9 Jun 2021)

So, "thread topics, are they really a gimmick?"


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## sometimewoodworker (10 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is very easy to place two rows of 10mm dowels with precision using a dowelmax jig, it is not so easy to place multiple dominos without using the sloppy setting so it is not suprising that the dowel joints come out stronger. If you could place the Domino's as easy then they would be stronger, as yet I have got some ideas using the FCC tools alignment jig and spacers on the plate but not 100% yet. The placing using the dowelmax is just easy but slow.


The first point is that placing multiple dominos using the tight setting in precise locations is neither rocket science nor is it difficult. It’s how I started using mine. If you can’t be bothered to take the time to be exact or understand the technic for placing them then using the first wide setting on one side in some points just makes a fast job faster.
The second point is that the exact fitting of the domino adds little strength to the joint, as it’s the wide sides of the domino that have the (glue) strength. The rounded ends are a very small area in comparison. When I make a different size domino I don’t bother to round them I just knock off the corners.


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## TheTiddles (10 Jun 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> So, "thread topics, are they really a gimmick?"


I think that’s off topic and shouldn’t be asked


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## Spectric (10 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> The first point is that placing multiple dominos using the tight setting in precise locations is neither rocket science nor is it difficult. It’s how I started using mine. If you can’t be bothered to take the time to be exact or understand the technic for placing them then using the first wide setting on one side in some points just makes a fast job faster.


I will say that I have tried probably almost everything to achieve what I want, the biggest step forward for 18/22 mm sheet goods is the FCC DAJ, that delivers a precise means of location every time. Putting a single domino into a joint has been acceptable in most cases but when I need two it becomes more difficult, many people will say that the sloppy setting on the 700 is too sloppy, it could be reduced. On the other point gaps in joints cannot be good, if there is a gap then you are reliant on the glue more, with wood to wood contact the loads are directly transfered.


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## sometimewoodworker (11 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> On the other point gaps in joints cannot be good, if there is a gap then you are reliant on the glue more, with wood to wood contact the loads are directly transfered.


That phrasing suggests that your opinion is that a glue in a wood joint is less strong than the wood.

However all testing proves that for a long grain connection virtually every modern glue is stronger than the wood.

So why is relying on the glue a problem?

If this is a significant concern this suggests that the design of the placement of joints in your objects isn't as good as it could be.

The accepted method is for at least 1 domino joint is set to be narrow on both sides to accurately position the work pieces, my experience is that if I take a little time I can set every domino on the tight setting however if I don't want to take the time for that then I set every one tight on one side then the first tight on the other & the rest on wiggle 1. The first tight domino will guarantee location and that the joint can not slip as it's impossible to shear a domino in a joint (unless the joint design is terrible when I guess there maybe a chance)


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## Spectric (11 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> However all testing proves that for a long grain connection virtually every modern glue is stronger than the wood.


Yes that is true but wood to wood, these glues cannot bridge gaps and is I think why I read someone suggesting cassymite glue.


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## sometimewoodworker (11 Jun 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes that is true but wood to wood, these glues cannot bridge gaps and is I think why I read someone suggesting cassymite glue.


The space at the ends of a domino slot when set on wide add or reduce the strength of the joint by very little it’s such a small percentage of the glue area, filling it with a gap filling glue, even epoxy or a urea formaldehyde glue will add little extra strength.

The need for a dowel to fill the hole has probably skewed your thinking into believing that it’s the only correct way for a joint


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## Jake (11 Jun 2021)

sometimewoodworker said:


> The need for a dowel to fill the hole has probably skewed your thinking into believing that it’s the only correct way for a joint



I guess a dowel is a peg of sorts.


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