# Melamine lacquer problems



## PAC (28 Dec 2009)

I'm making a wassail bowl that needs to hold 2 pints of cider. I've turned it out of end grain beech and of course it needs a food safe finish. Initially, I coated it in undiluted sanding sealer and several coats of undiluted melamine lacquer applied with a brush. To test it I filled it with water but the finish on the end grain on the inside if the bowl discoloured very quickly in patches as if the water was penetrating the finish and reaching the wood.

I've since returned to the bowl to the workshop and sanded off the old finish on the inside of the bowl. I then applied several coats of 50:50 diluted sanding sealer followed by several coats of diluted melamine lacquer (again about 50:50 with thinners) applied with a cloth. This morning I filled the bowl up again with water and although the finish is massively better there are still small breaches in the finish (scratch sized and half little finger nail sized) that discolour in the presence of water.

I need to get this project finished ASAP so would really appreciate some advice on this one. :?


----------



## Bodrighy (28 Dec 2009)

It is almost impossible to make a vessel that is totally waterproof. The old traditional way was to put a load of beeswax in the bowl / goblet etc and melt it allowing it to soak into the grain. The discolouration is inevitable unless you put huge amounts of lacquer on. I haven't tried spray mind, that may work better. If I am making goblets for use with red wine I try and make it from a darker wood so that it won't show so much but as said, I have yet to find a foolproof coating

Pete


----------



## PAC (28 Dec 2009)

Thanks Pete. I've been poking around the internet and found a method using Rustins 'Plastic Coating' which seems to be a resin plus hardener (cold cure). See here. Has been used on vessels to hold liquid but not sure if it's food safe.


----------



## wizer (28 Dec 2009)

Once the finish is totally dry/hardened (week or two) then it is safe. If the finish lifts or flakes and is consumed, then that's not safe, technically.


----------



## Bodrighy (28 Dec 2009)

As Tom says, it should be food safe as it is advertised as being child safe for toys. I used it on spinning tops but it gives a plasticy look which I don't like for goblets etc. See what you think. It does chip as well. Personally for something as traditional as a wassail bowl the stain wouldn't bother me as I see that as all part of the traditional look of the object. Same with the medieval chalices I do. Doubt if the originals had any coating other than beeswax. 

Pete


----------



## Paul.J (28 Dec 2009)

Couldn't you just apply the plastic coat on the inside :?:


----------



## OldWood (28 Dec 2009)

Intrigued by the melting beeswax - on the basis that beeswax melts at something like 46C, what would the wood do if heated to that temperature ? 

I was then wondering how it is done - an oven at 50C (digital thermometer) and lots of chunks of wax in the bowl ?

I have a design for a wine bottle coaster I want to make, but I want a dark wood for the red wine and a light one for the white wine; my concern obviously is the red bottle will get put in the light wood coaster and stain it.

OW


----------



## Bodrighy (28 Dec 2009)

The beeswax was melted then poured into the vessel. This would be preceded by soaking the vessel in warm oil first until it stops soaking anymore up. Linseed (raw, boiled has poisons in it) and walnut were the traditional oils used but due to nut allergies walnut is not recommended. It takes a little while to cool down and soaks into the end grain. (These vessels were traditionally done in end grain wood) Next the molten wax is poured in and swilled around then poured out. Any excess is scrape off with a blunt knife or similar tool. The heat isn't enough to burn the wood and wax is a pretty good sealer. Look up the traditional methods of doing things and it is quite amazing at the ingenuity of our ancestors. 

Pete


----------



## jpt (28 Dec 2009)

For wine coasters I always sell them with a thin piece of cork cut to size in the base.

The only problem with Plastic coating is that it does what it says on the tine and leaves the surface looking and feeling plastic.

john


----------



## PAC (28 Dec 2009)

I've spent a good part of the day applying more coats of melamine to the inside of the bowl but each time the same regions just repel the lacquer (leaving uncoated bits). The wood should have been as clean as a whistle (no wax or grease) so maybe the wood itself is repelling the finish. Think I might be flogging a dead horse...

The only substance I have left in the shop is a small pot of Plasticote 'enamel'. Might give that a try...


----------



## OldWood (18 Nov 2012)

I've resurrected this thread from 3 years back after doing a Google search on "Melamine lacquer food safe", and found this thread and that I did contribute to it then too.

What prompted the matter was that I did a nice little cherry bowl finished with Chestnut Melamine Lacquer a wee while back and "her-indoors" asked last night if she could use for grated parmesan cheese for a meal with friends. I could remember that "toy safe" did apply and did assume that that would include food safe - it was raining, I had clean clothes on and going out to the workshop to do a double check wasn't a nice option - so said it was OK.

Anyway - wrong assumption ! (and it's interesting that Bodrighy made the same assumption in the original thread). This morning the finish inside is all rough and will need to be stripped off and re-applied.

I'm going to forward this post to Chestnut as the assumption that a Toy Safe product is food safe would seem to be a common misapprehension (no one for example corrected us 3 years ago), and I think it would be advisable for the tin to make clear that Melamine is not food safe.

Rob


----------



## Bodrighy (18 Nov 2012)

Toy safe tends to mean that it is safe for children to put in their mouths and isn't of itself harmful. Food safe means that it is benign and won't react with the chemicals in food etc. If you are using the vessel for alcoholic beverages as in goblets, chalices or wassail bowls you also have to remember that the alchohol can leach and react with the coating. Beeswax is probably still the safest of the lot though it does tend to come off and have to be repeated after heavy usage. Food safe oils are IMHO ideally vegetable based (not olive oil which goes rancid) for food bowls, mortar and pestles rolling pins etc. I make a lot of goblets and chalices and advise buyers that red wine will still get through and stain but I use spray melamine, maybe a good 10 coats at least and haven't had any problems with it yet. Also be aware that the wood you use can affect the coating. Some woods are oily by nature so the coating sits on the top instead of soaking in and this was used traditionally as seen here. Stuart King, making his, used many coats of two part ‘Plastic Coating rubbed down between coats which probably helped get rid of that plastic look as well. 

Pete


----------



## jeffdavies (18 Nov 2012)

I believe that the following web site may assist you...
http://www.rockler.com/articles/wood-fi ... -guide.cfm
There are quite a few choices listed there which are 'food safe'.

I appreciate it's USA based but I would imagine that some of their or similar food safe products are available here in the UK.
It may also give you ideas on what to search for here!

Hope this helps you.


----------



## OldWood (18 Nov 2012)

jeffdavies":if2h21fe said:


> I believe that the following web site may assist you...
> http://www.rockler.com/articles/wood-fi ... -guide.cfm
> There are quite a few choices listed there which are 'food safe'.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the link, Jeff. Quick flick through and it looks interesting and useful. 

This wasn't a case of setting out to make this bowl food safe - I'd seen someone using Melamine at the club and was impressed by the very quick and good finish so it was the first try at using it. I did the assumption that it would be OK for a non-fluid material - ie hard grated cheese - and was surprised this morning to find the surface of the finish had been attacked.

The purpose of the new posting was to alert any users to the fact that Toy Safe does not mean Food Safe in this case, even for near enough dry foods.

Rob


----------



## CHJ (18 Nov 2012)

I am very surprised that a genuine cured Melamine enhanced continuous coating has broken down with something like cheese, I have fruit bowls here used to hold soft fruit such as citrus, grapes, pears etc. that have been known to leak from time to time when left unchecked too long and the bowls always clean up with a wet cloth and show no sign of surface degradation from the fruit acids.

I also had some hardwood door thresh-holds similarly coated that stood traffic for several years with no sign of mechanical break down.

For my own education I'll do some trials with various foods and substances on a new piece of timber.


----------



## Bodrighy (18 Nov 2012)

Maybe the lacquer wasn't cured. Touch dry doesn't mean it is stable. I leave mine for a good week or so before selling on to make sure that the melamine has cured. 

Pete


----------



## OldWood (18 Nov 2012)

Hi Chas - trust you to throw a googly into the googly into the middle of this. :lol: 

The bowl was done may be as much as 6 months ago so well cured. The remaining grated cheese had been covered in cling film over night so any potentially damaging gases would have been concentrated.

Rob


----------



## CHJ (19 Nov 2012)

I would suggest that you might be cautious in advocating without reservation that the lacquer is not fit for purpose, in my experience I have not seen anything to indicate that it's anything other than a very tough and robust finish but can see that if the coating is not a perfect contiguous surface the underlying wood could react to something but as I said before I will be surprised if it is the melamine itself breaking down.

To say a coating is Food Safe in the context you are using, (mechanical integrity) has nothing to do with toxic safety, and is such a broad arena with the possibilities of having said as such it could be subjected to anything from extreme acidics to strong alkalies with no control of its application or the substrate it is applied to would be an impossible stance for anyone to commit to.

Perhaps you should send the failed item to Chestnuts for them to examine in the lab to try and determine the cause of the surface failure you are seeing. I'm sure they have enough integrity to provide you with an honest appraisal of what the problem is.

Here's a thought.
Aluminium saucepans were considered 'food safe' but have you seen how they clean-up when you boil rhubarb or jam in them, where do you think the aluminium oxide has gone from the surface, I doubt you would ever get one through a toxicity test these days.


----------



## jurriaan (19 Nov 2012)

There exists a product called Fasspech, which is used by Germans to coat the inside of barrels and beer mugs (made of wood). Google implicate the English term is 'cooper's pitch'.

some quick searches reveal:

Tannins can make beer bitter and unpleasant. In order to avoid high tannin levels in their cask beer, brewers coat the interior of their barrels with pine pitch to minimize contact with the wood (pitch is a gooey, sticky liquid derived from resin collected from coniferous trees).

However, searching for 'pine pitch' doesn't really help. The Fasspech term is more geared towards turnes, and I know that is being used in Germany and it's food safe.


----------



## OldWood (19 Nov 2012)

CHJ":3otfw5n6 said:


> <snip>
> 
> To say a coating is Food Safe in the context you are using, (mechanical integrity) has nothing to do with toxic safety, and is such a broad arena with the possibilities of having said as such it could be subjected to anything from extreme acidics to strong alkalies with no control of its application or the substrate it is applied to would be an impossible stance for anyone to commit to.
> 
> ...



Hi Chas - this could get philosophical ! We know now that Aluminium from saucepans and jelly pans - you should have seen our marmalade pan before we finally came to our senses and dumped it - is not good for our health, but then how do the testing authorities know that there isn't some obscure food item in a peculiar storage situation which results in a break down of a surface with a potential toxic side effect ?

I have flagged this up as a concern because I consider myself a responsible member of the community who has found an anomaly that seems to fly in face of previous experience and testing. Now you may be right though I'm not too sure where I could have gone wrong, but then I will argue that I could also be right in that the question exists - has there been the specific test of storing grated parmesan cheese over a melamine lacquer finish sealed over night at room temperature?

Either that test has to be done under controlled conditions, or someone has to show that they have done the same and that there isn't a problem, or Chestnut have to say that I applied the finish incorrectly. 

With all due respect I think the discussion does end at that point - that is until further information is available. I will expect communication from Chestnut - if I don't I will be raising the matter with Trading Standards - and will continue the thread when I have more information.

But in the meantime the evidence is that a food product has created a breakdown in Chestnut's Melamine Finish and until it is proven otherwise I certainly will not be using it for anything that could be food or child related. I will leave any other reader's to make their own judgement. 

Rob


----------



## Terry Smart (19 Nov 2012)

Simple answer.

Melamine Lacquer is not tested for use in food contact. Therefore we do not recommend it for that purpose, instead we have a Food Safe Finish. Whilst we have no evidence to suggest that the product is harmful, and we know many people use it for food contact with no adverse effects to health, we have never claimed that this product can be used in this situation.
There are of course many other exclusions where this product shouldn't be used (exterior work, items that will be submersed, coatings for Jumbo Jets etc) but we cannot be expected to list all of them on the label. Not that in this case the label was checked anyway.

Melamine Lacquer (and several other of our products) are independently tested to the EN-71 Part 3 regulations which concern the use of coatings on children's toys and nursery furniture. We have certificates available regarding this should they be requested.

We never make a claim we cannot substantiate nor that we are unhappy with. Anecdotal evidence/ideas from others circulated on the internet should not always be taken as gospel truth.

I hope that clarifies some points.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (19 Nov 2012)

I think we need to be rather pedantic in cases like this -" food safe" meaning it doesn't affect food, is a different to "food proof" - meaning it won't let food affect the substrate.


----------



## OldWood (19 Nov 2012)

Terry Smart":eb8omc27 said:


> Simple answer.
> 
> Melamine Lacquer is not tested for use in food contact. Therefore we do not recommend it for that purpose, instead we have a Food Safe Finish. Whilst we have no evidence to suggest that the product is harmful, and we know many people use it for food contact with no adverse effects to health, we have never claimed that this product can be used in this situation.
> There are of course many other exclusions where this product shouldn't be used (exterior work, items that will be submersed, coatings for Jumbo Jets etc) but we cannot be expected to list all of them on the label. Not that in this case the label was checked anyway.
> ...



The trouble is that there is a perception that if a product is declared Child Safe - that is safe for a 6 month baby trying to stick it in his/her mouth - then there is an implication that it is Food Safe. It is an easy and logical step to take. A misapprehension may be, but logical one many turners take I would suggest.

I'm not asking Chestnut to defend themselves, short of agreeing that it is a confusing area, as I knowingly allowed the bowl to be used. My aim in posting was to alert turners to a problem I have found. 

CHJ has found that the product works OK for fruit bowls, but suggests that the application was faulty and that the lacquer has lifted - no, it is the surface that has been attacked.

Maybe this product is OK - it certainly is a good finish in very quick time, but Food Tolerant it certainly is not, which could indicate it is not Food Safe, and for me by extrapolation I won't be using it on anything that has a requirement for Child Safety.

Rob


----------



## tekno.mage (19 Nov 2012)

I too have had a melamine laquer finish fail on me - twice in fact. One instance was a beech box lid (finished with two coats of melamine lacquer and well cured) which got rain drips on it whilst sitting for sale on a stall - the rain drips left marks on the finish.

The other was a bowl finished in Melamine lacquer whidh had salt and vinegar crips left in it over night (shouldn;t have happened of course) - whether it was the salt or the combination of the salt and acid from the venegar I don;t know, but this also damaged the finish leaving it rough and patchy.

I now use Hardwax oil finishe instead of melamine lacquer for most jobs and find it more durable.


----------



## woodyturner (19 Nov 2012)

I have always used an oil finish on food bowls but I have just started experimenting with hard wax oil and so far it looks very good and so quick compared to oil


----------

