# The great 'Double Glazing Con'



## RogerS (11 May 2015)

Out of curiosity, I have been playing around with one of those online Energy Performance Certificate software packages. I was curious to know what difference it would make to the final EPC score switching between single and double glazing. (I stress that the figures are based on our house ...if your house is 100% glazed areas and no walls then YMMV).

It confirmed what I have long suspected, namely that this ridiculous push towards ever more daft u-values for windows by Building Control actually makes Sweet F*** All to the energy saving of the country. Not to mention the goddam ugly windows that need 6 x 2 glazing bars to take the dgu's (OK...I exaggerate a little but you get my drift?).

The difference in the EPC figure is 1. One. One point. Or as I prefer to call it 'pointless'.

Double-glazing is a con.


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## bugbear (11 May 2015)

The payback time of DG is well known to be very long. There are many, far more effective, ways of saving money
on your heating bills.

Here's a typical analysis.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/in ... th-it.html

BugBear


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## blackrodd (11 May 2015)

I've No doubt you are correct in what you say, but after changing 17 windows in my 3,000 odd sq.ft house for D, Glazed windows in 2011, The difference in heating costs was incredible, and no more painting too!
How you can feed that into a computor programme, I'm not sure.
Regards Rodders.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 May 2015)

I was told I could jump a grade on the EPC by installing CFLs or LEDs in all fixed lighting. There were two that weren't already done. Ludicrous. The EU strikes again.
Edit - and that I could save £40 a year by installing under floor insulation. All the while ignoring 24 feet of uninsulated 4" block wall between the garage and the bungalow.


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## doorframe (11 May 2015)

I would suspect the savings would vary according to just how old and bad your windows are. When I moved into my house it was fitted with 'crittal' windows (is that spelt right...crittal?). With 10 windows in the front and plenty more in the back, the GCH was incapable of heating the house, and needed supplementing with electric. One electrical quarter like that was enough. Fitted DG as quick as possible and never looked back.


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## Racers (11 May 2015)

The pricing is the worst con, my mother was getting some quotes most came in at £3500 to £5000, until she has a well known TV advertised company come round and quote £23500 but they could offer 50% off. 
I know why they use the highest mountain as the name, it reflects there price.

Pete


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## Jacob (11 May 2015)

blackrodd":28zy1m8o said:


> I've No doubt you are correct in what you say, but after changing 17 windows in my 3,000 odd sq.ft house for D, Glazed windows in 2011, The difference in heating costs was incredible, and no more painting too!
> How you can feed that into a computor programme, I'm not sure.
> Regards Rodders.


To compare/contrast you'd need to give the actual figure saved on your heating costs and compare that to the cost of the windows and their devaluation - bearing in mind they often need units replacing from 5 years on and the complete replacement in 20 to 30 years. 
You also need to consider the principle energy saving effect of DG units which in most old houses is the result of better draught proofing - which could be applied to existing windows.
I've been looking at it for years and decided a long time ago that replacement DG is a big waste of money and even for new build is dubious. There are plenty of better ways to save energy.


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## RogerS (11 May 2015)

blackrodd":jmf3f5g9 said:


> I've No doubt you are correct in what you say, but after changing 17 windows in my 3,000 odd sq.ft house for D, Glazed windows in 2011, The difference in heating costs was incredible, and no more painting too!
> How you can feed that into a computor programme, I'm not sure.
> Regards Rodders.



That is exactly what I did to plug into the EPC software. I measured the sq m of each window, the compass facing direction and then was able to change the parameters from single to double to triple and variations in between. It WILL depend on the relative sizes of your own windows as I was at pains to stress in the OP. The total size of our windows is about 19 sq m for a 10 metre x 10 metre square two storey property.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 May 2015)

DG obviously does work - why else would Norway and Sweden (e.g.) use treble glazing? But the benefit depends on how cold it actually is outside - for most of the year it's not particularly cold. (Where I live 0c is positively arctic.) As Jacob says, most of the windows replaced didn't fit - if you replace an ill fitting metal framed single glazed window with a well fitting single glazed wooden one there'll be a hell of an improvement. I suspect for most people in towns the noise reduction is as important as any heat saving. I would however question the replacement time - I've had DG for 30yrs, and I've never had to so much as replace a panel.


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## RogerS (11 May 2015)

Triple glazing is much better, I agree. But double-glazing is, IMO, a waste of money as the payback period os light-years.


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## bugbear (11 May 2015)

RogerS":2sb9hzu3 said:


> Triple glazing is much better, I agree. But double-glazing is, IMO, a waste of money as the payback period os light-years.



You know light-years measure distance, right? :wink: 

BugBear


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## RogerS (11 May 2015)

bugbear":16yp4ai9 said:


> RogerS":16yp4ai9 said:
> 
> 
> > Triple glazing is much better, I agree. But double-glazing is, IMO, a waste of money as the payback period os light-years.
> ...


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## zb1 (11 May 2015)

It's not the DGUs that are the problem it's the way EPCs are scored that is the issue, that and the prices peddled by some national installers. 

Double glazing provides a greatly increased acoustic and thermal insulation values. A standard 4mm annealed glass sheet has a u value of u/5.8. the same double glazed unit with two sheets of 4mm and a 16mm spacer with 90% argon fill gives you u/2.6. Add a low emissive coat to the DGU and this falls to u/1.2. This not only decreases heat loss from the building but also helps to improve the internal atmosphere by reducing condensation and stabilising internal relative humidity.

The acoustic performance is also marked, especially if you have two different glass thicknesses making up the DGU. 

On top of that DGUs are not really that expensive. 19m2 of 4-16-4 low-e argon fill should be in the region of £600 +VAT for the units. You should make that back in gas bills in 5-7 years depending on usage. (That article is from 2005 claiming £150-200 p/a, the price of gas has gone up about 10% since then.)

As for the 5 year replacement, 5 years is the minimum guarantee provided by most unit manufacturers. However the vast majority of units last much, much longer. 15-20 years is a better estimate of average life span. The reasons units fail is also much better understood now than it was 30 years ago. Units should be drained and vented so the hot melt used in the sealing process is never sat in water either through condensation or weathering. This is why the units are sat on packers and the frames should have drain holes. That goes for uPVC frames and wooden frames. On the subject of longevity the uPVC frames also have a limited life with UV degradation. If you have wooden windows that are well maintained the cost of replacing the units ever 20 years should be easily recoverable against the rising cost of gas.

Having said all that if your sales person manages to get someone to pay £12.5k then the payback will never really appear. I did the 9 windows in our house which equal approx 13m2 for less than £2k 3 years ago but I do have trade contacts for the uPVC frames and a glass merchant that gets a lot of custom from us.


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## Jacob (11 May 2015)

If you really need acoustic insulation then yes DG (diff thicknesses) is the way.
But DG doesn't necessarily do anything much for condensation - it all depends on a lot of details and you may just end up getting it somewhere else. 
If condensation is a prob then ventilation control is a better and cheaper solution. 
Next best is properly designed single glazing, ideally the traditional sash - condensation drains off at the meeting rail gap and the bottom sash and the window itself acts as a passive dehumidifier. Doesn't have to be a trad sash - there are plenty of ways of designing in this effect.
A rule of thumb for savings is that DG will take 5 to 10% off your bill - so on £1000 p.a. bill you save £100 a year. Bguger all really. Draught proofing and insulation will do a lot more. New windows usually means better draught proofing anyway.
The trouble with the regs is that they have been cobbled together with glazing manufacturers who have (surprise surprise!!) an interest in selling the stuff. They aren't interested in the alternatives.


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## Lons (11 May 2015)

Yep, I sit here in my comfortable draft and condensation free double glazed, centrally heated house and desperately long for the good old days when the condensation on the single glazed windows froze in the winter and had to be scraped off :wink: 
I also don't know what to do with the time I've gained by not needing to paint or repair the windows and cills. All I have to worry about these days is whether to spend that time on the golf course or in the workshop. :roll: 
I don't give a **** whether I get any potential savings back in 10, 20 years or never, I can't buy back that time.

I'd add that I agree about thieving conmen salesmen and that "A" mountain peak lot are a prize example. I fitted my own ( 22 windows plus doors) so was very cost effective as far as I'm concerned.

The most effective "radiator" I have btw is the conservatory, followed closely by the porch. A heat sink as soon as the sun comes out and helps keep the fabric of the house warm. My house is detached and exposed, is cavity wall insulated and 300mm in the loft but concrete floors I can do little about and we have an open fireplace which of course helps a lot with ventilation..
cheers
Bob


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## Jacob (11 May 2015)

_not needing to paint or repair the windows and cills_ is possible if you stop using modern paints and go back to linseed:
http://www.oldhousestore.co.uk/allback- ... -555-p.asp
I've been using this stuff under the Holkham Hall label but I see it's now reverted to the source - Allback.
It's utterly brilliant - to use that is, it's a bit dull you don't get the high gloss of modern paints but it sticks like sh|t to a blanket. I don't use anything else now.

NB plastic windows aren't maintenance free - things break, wear out, distort. There's nothing magic about plastic and it's not easy to mend.


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## blackrodd (12 May 2015)

The very thought of paying £40, odd a litre and rubbing down and laddering and scaffolding to use it,
Not when I'm thinking of retiring sometime soon, I wan't time off!
Rodders


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## Lons (12 May 2015)

Jacob":3512isia said:


> _not needing to paint or repair the windows and cills_ is possible if you stop using modern paints and go back to linseed:
> http://www.oldhousestore.co.uk/allback- ... -555-p.asp
> I've been using this stuff under the Holkham Hall label but I see it's now reverted to the source - Allback.
> It's utterly brilliant - to use that is, it's a bit dull you don't get the high gloss of modern paints but it sticks like sh|t to a blanket. I don't use anything else now.
> ...


Don't want to paint at all Jacob, you missed the point entirely and I'm old and experienced enough to have grown up with old formula paint :lol: You clearly like painting so keep up the good work, someone has to do it! :roll: 

Where in my post did I say that PVCu windows are maintenance free? - Please read the posts properly! 
They actually, providing you buy decent quality, are very low maintenance and the same applies to the sealed units. Life can be 15 to 20 years and I've seen longer. Breakages are often due to misuse similar to traditional windows.

How many have you actually fitted yourself to provide you with so much enlightenment btw?
cheers
Bob


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## Jacob (12 May 2015)

Lons":334y2oj6 said:


> ......
> How many have you actually fitted yourself to provide you with so much enlightenment btw?
> cheers
> Bob


Several hundred sash windows period replica replacement and repair maintenance of several hundred more. Zero plastic windows. A couple of goes at DG in old sashes but decided it was a waste of time. And a lot of other woodworky stuff, conservation, building work and bits n bobs of furniture.
A never ending stream of enquiries ; what to do about failed DG units i.e. seals gone misted up inside and the impossibility of getting anyone to honour guarantees. They tend to imagine that they are just unlucky, not realising that it is extremely common. The ones that don't fail seem to be the lucky few.

Trad windows can last 100s of years. I'm strongly inclined to think that I wouldn't have been in business at all if it hadn't been for modern paint - stripping off the old linseed oil paint and replacing with modern is the kiss of death. Even new work suffers with modern paint. I'm about 7 years into linseed oil paints and the difference is astonishing. I wish I had known about it sooner.


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## DennisCA (12 May 2015)

I wonder if they had similar discussions in the late 1800s here when double glazing was becoming standard on houses.


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## dzj (12 May 2015)

DennisCA":3pevrere said:


> I wonder if they had similar discussions in the late 1800s here when double glazing was becoming standard on houses.



Do you mean this type of double glazing?


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## RogerS (12 May 2015)

Much as it goes against the grain ( :wink: ) I am with Jacob on this one 100%

And here is the original post about the linseed oil paints. For those who are new to the forum, Mr Grimsdale is Jacob. http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/viewt ... f=7&t=1968


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## Jonzjob (12 May 2015)

I haven't had time to read all this thread, but I think we would be a lost cause without double glazing. This is our lounge window, 5 X 2.2 metres, 





our bedroom window is 4 X 2.2 metres and the second bedroom jobbie is 3.3 X 2.2 metres. The kitchen one is only 2 X 1 metre. So triple would be nice to both keep the heat in and out, but out of the question.

Plus, in the winter, as our house faces dead south, the sun shines in through to the back of the rooms and even although our underfloor heating is set to 20º the room temps can reach up to 27º. In the summer the eves are built so that the sun doesn't shine in at all.

We also have a large open fire :shock: :shock: Lovely too on a very cold winters day, good cosy value..


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## DennisCA (12 May 2015)

dzj":ldbdiywr said:


> DennisCA":ldbdiywr said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if they had similar discussions in the late 1800s here when double glazing was becoming standard on houses.
> ...



No I didn't have any type in particular in mind.


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## RogerS (12 May 2015)

As I mentioned in the OP, John, double-glazing is beneficial in circumstances such as yours. It's when you have small windows in a property where the lunacy of the Building Regs chasing u-values down the drain becomes obvious. And, as I found out, makes diddly squat to any EPC Certificate.


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## Beau (12 May 2015)

zb1":1nv7zein said:


> It's not the DGUs that are the problem it's the way EPCs are scored that is the issue, that and the prices peddled by some national installers.
> 
> Double glazing provides a greatly increased acoustic and thermal insulation values. A standard 4mm annealed glass sheet has a u value of u/5.8. the same double glazed unit with two sheets of 4mm and a 16mm spacer with 90% argon fill gives you u/2.6. Add a low emissive coat to the DGU and this falls to u/1.2. This not only decreases heat loss from the building but also helps to improve the internal atmosphere by reducing condensation and stabilising internal relative humidity.
> 
> ...




What he said. 

Made a few DG windows over the years never had any complaints of failed units. Cant imagine going back to single glazing with all the condensation related problems. More inclined to look at triple glazing for any future windows I make particularly if they are north facing. In a completely uninsulated house I am sure the difference a bit of DG makes in very small but with a low U value homes the percentage difference DG makes is far greater.


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## Jacob (12 May 2015)

DennisCA":2tv1uyxh said:


> I wonder if they had similar discussions in the late 1800s here when double glazing was becoming standard on houses.


It didn't get going in the UK until quite recently. 1960s? No doubt there were all manner of earlier experiments.
Finland a lot colder than the UK so it's a different ball game altogether. But I'd expect that there was (and continues to be) lots of discussion of the other ways of keeping the heat in, such as blinds, curtains, shutters, insulation in general.



> Cant imagine going back to single glazing with all the condensation related problems. More inclined to look at triple glazing for any future windows I make particularly if they are north facing. In a completely uninsulated house I am sure the difference a bit of DG makes in very small but with a low U value homes the percentage difference DG makes is far greater.


There plenty of cheaper ways of fixing condensation problems and anyway DG doesn't do it very well without other measures in place.
Yes to the percentage difference but its a fraction of a smaller bill so the actual savings total remains the same whatever condition the rest of the house. This sometimes takes some people a bit of time to get their heads around!


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## Phil Pascoe (12 May 2015)

People often forget where the base line is. If someone quotes say £2000 to replace your windows With DG plastic are you replacing because you have to, putting them in a new build or are you pulling out reasonable windows to do it? Insulation properties and expected energy savings are the same - e. g. you'll save 10%. 10% of what - 10% compared to an old ill fitting window? a new single glazed window? a hole in the wall? You need to be realistic. Personally, I haven't enough life left to paint windows, or enough money to pay someone to paint them every few years.


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## Jacob (12 May 2015)

RogerS":2fbbewn7 said:


> Much as it goes against the grain ( :wink: ) I am with Jacob on this one 100%
> 
> And here is the original post about the linseed oil paints. For those who are new to the forum, Mr Grimsdale is Jacob. http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/viewt ... f=7&t=1968


Forgotten about that! I'll dig out the photos. It's an on going experiment and so far all is well on old and new work. 
It's particularly good over failed paint surfaces where it seems to stop any further deterioration and at the same time stick tight to bare areas. Doesn't seem to get a mention in the literature but this can save a massive amount of work - stripping, making good etc.


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## Lons (12 May 2015)

He still has never fitted even one PVCu unit as he freely admits yet is such a self proclaimed authority on that subject - very strange - very Jacob :lol: (hammer) 

Just for the record. I am not a double glazing fitter. My business was construction and during that time I fitted hundreds of PVCu units as part of builds and extensions plus a hell of a lot conservatories. I also have fitted many timber units including bespoke frames for grade 2 listed buildings. So I do have the experience.

I can honestly say that in 18 years I have had only 2 callbacks to PVCu (and I would know of any problems as the vast majority of my customers are local and repeat). One of those required a simple door hinge adjustment which was caused by a child using the door as a swing and took 15 minutes and the other was a broken window handle which was faulty. That never happens with traditional fittings of course, does it! :wink: 

My own windows and doors I fitted 13 years ago which shocked me when I looked it up :shock: and my conservatory 15 years. Nothing wrong with any of them, and no sign of seal failure or frame degradation. They just get a fairly regular wipe over when the windows are cleaned

PVCu isn't for everyone and certainly doesn't suit most old traditional buildings. They are over hyped for sales profit and building regs are a joke driven by political compliance with Brussels. The regs really don't make sense at times and if pressed the inspectors freely admit that elements are nonsensical however they have to be complied with. 
Jacob is right in that there are ways to reduce condensation and save heat, some cheap, some bloody expensive others need a major life change to how we cook, wash our clothes and take baths or showers. Maybe we should revert to the bath night in front of the fire once a week instead of a lovely steaming power shower and lose the cooker / microwave in favour of a pot over an open fire.:lol: 

We all have our own ideas but they are just opinions not fact and will make our decisions on that basis. I'm very happy with mine and more importantly, so is the missus.

Anyway, I've made a decision on my free time - workshop today, golf tomorrow. \/ 
cheers
Bob


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## Lons (12 May 2015)

Jacob":vivdfz9h said:


> Lons":vivdfz9h said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



The only part of that which actually answered my question was this 



> Zero plastic windows


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jacob (12 May 2015)

Lons":sk1ory4b said:


> .....
> I can honestly say that in 18 years I have had only 2 callbacks to PVCu


Over the years I've had hundreds of queries about failed DG units. Maybe they simply give up on the original suppliers and go straight to the alternatives.


> ......
> Jacob is right in that there are ways to reduce condensation and save heat, some cheap, .....


Controlled ventilation costs very little. Worst option of all is the dreadful "de-humidifier".


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## RogerS (12 May 2015)

There is a small joinery company that recently supplied 400 double-glazed timer windows for a construction site down South. They used the 'heritage' type spacers in the double-glazing units...ie the ones that are lower profile than normal and so let the DGU sit inside a 10mm rebate rather than deeper rebates of 15mm or more.....you know the ones, those with 6 x2 glazing bars ... :wink: 

370 have failed. There's a moral there somewhere...not sure where...heritage seals maybe.


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## DennisCA (12 May 2015)

Jacob":28p3jels said:


> But I'd expect that there was (and continues to be) lots of discussion of the other ways of keeping the heat in, such as blinds, curtains, shutters, insulation in general.



For my house it was triple glazed windows, insulation 330mm thick in walls, 500mm in roof, 250mm in the floor under the concrete plate and 150mm on the sides of the plate. The ground outside the house foundation is insulated under the soil out to 1 meter to prevent the ground around the house from freezing or getting too cold, essentially the ground under the house never freezes and so doesn't have frost heaving. 

We heat our house with electricity that runs a geothermal pump, our consumption during the coldest months was 700-900kWh per month, but in fairness that included my freestanding workshop and all other electrical consumption. In addition to heating that is.


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## RogerS (12 May 2015)

DennisCA..is your house a relatively newbuild? Does Finland have a lot of older properties (as we do over here in the UK) and if so what energy saving schemes have they adopted?


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## DennisCA (12 May 2015)

Most finns who live in houses live in houses built after WW2 when there was a post war boom in building. 
Thicker insulation and double or triple glaze windows are the norm. Hydronic radiant heating is also the norm as opposed to forced air heating. Dunno if those are tricks but that's what's normal for most houses. 

I know more details about my own house because we recently built it (2013-2014), I know my parents house build in the late 70s did not have the same type of foundation or the same level of insulation, nor insulation around the foundation. Triple glazed original windows still in place though.

The latter is something they're planning to add since I had lots of insulation left over.


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## Lons (12 May 2015)

RogerS":2bvlhfh6 said:


> There is a small joinery company that recently supplied 400 double-glazed timer windows for a construction site down South. They used the 'heritage' type spacers in the double-glazing units...ie the ones that are lower profile than normal and so let the DGU sit inside a 10mm rebate rather than deeper rebates of 15mm or more.....you know the ones, those with 6 x2 glazing bars ... :wink:
> 
> 370 have failed. There's a moral there somewhere...not sure where...heritage seals maybe.



I can honestly say Roger that the only sealed units I have changed and there have been a few over the past 18 years have been fitted in timber frames. A number of reasons for failure firstly poorly fitted and sometimes wrongly sized, usually too tight. No gap at the base so the inevitable water ingress sits around the seal and the use of the wrong silicone sealant which attacks the seal.

Jacob claims


> Over the years I've had hundreds of queries about failed DG units.


 Unless he has a lot of very poor fitters and poor quality components around where he lives I'd suggest it's an exageration :roll:

Low profile seals are vulnerable but I'd suggest for one project to have that many failures either the manufacturers of the units or the fitters have got it badly wrong.
I fitted that type into a grade 2 listed stable build and was very careful to fit properly, 11 years down the line they're perfect and I know that 'cos I was there last weekend.

cheers
Bob


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## Jacob (12 May 2015)

Lons":1xi8mq3u said:


> ......
> Jacob claims
> 
> 
> ...


Not at all. 
Phone would go every week if not every day. I was well known as a joiner/woodworker doing repair/restoration so maybe it was people with failed units in wooden windows who would call me rather than the DG suppliers. 
Dunno. No doubt about them failing all over the place though.


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## Lons (12 May 2015)

> *so maybe it was people with failed units in wooden windows who would call me rather than the DG suppliers. *


At last Jacob, the truth is out and you're starting to make sense. failed sealed units in TIMBER frames has bu**er all to do with the argument and your clain that PVCu frames are ****

As I stated I've had zero failed units in PVCu frames but a number in timber frames to replace (non fitted by me), the vast majority were caused by poor original installation. The manufacture of frames and glass are seperate production procedures and whilst some of the window guys make sealed units themselves, usually in a seperate factory, the majority buy them in.
PVCu frames allow the glass to move, be ventilated and be drained so they have a much longer life, all things being equal.

cheers
Bob


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## woodpig (12 May 2015)

I need to replace a window and want to improve the sound insulating performance but can't get the figures for triple glazing or acoustic double glazing to see which is best.


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## Flynnwood (12 May 2015)

Jacob":30v25avr said:


> I'm about 7 years into linseed oil paints and the difference is astonishing. I wish I had known about it sooner.



Just for info; if anyone buys a new Audi today (or several other car manufacturers) they are painted with water based paint.


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## zb1 (12 May 2015)

woodpig":fbx85xkc said:


> I need to replace a window and want to improve the sound insulating performance but can't get the figures for triple glazing or acoustic double glazing to see which is best.



Asymmetric units are the best value for money option. You can get special acoustic laminated glass but it costs a fair bit more. Phone a local IGU manufacturer or one of the nationals and ask to speak to their tech dept. If they ask whether you are trade just say you are specifying for a job that is going out to tender.

According to Pilkington's online glass spec a 4-16-4 give you a 31dB reduction and a 4-16-6 give 34dB reduction with standard annealed glass. Using Pilkington Optiphon(?) a 4-16-6.8 gives you a 36dB reduction.


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## MIGNAL (13 May 2015)

Going back 20 years I replaced the original Victorian windows in my sisters house. Out of 6 windows only one showed any sign of wood rot - which happened to be a large bay window. Even then the rot was only in one corner. The rest were in extremely good order, although rather thick with paint. 100 year old windows in softwood, perfectly sound. I was amazed, especially since I had replaced other softwood windows that had rotted and that appeared to be less than 20 years old!


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## Phil Pascoe (13 May 2015)

Yes, the only piece of fascia board I had to replace had been replaced before. The old timber was so much better.


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

phil.p":22l2o160 said:


> Yes, the only piece of fascia board I had to replace had been replaced before. The old timber was so much better.


The timber is usually the same stuff - redwood. The difference is/was in the paint - linseed oil. There was an assumption that lead gave old paint it's longevity but this notion has been overturned. Non-lead fillers and driers work just as well - it's the oil not the lead.


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## bugbear (13 May 2015)

Jacob":9gxqlsyd said:


> phil.p":9gxqlsyd said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the only piece of fascia board I had to replace had been replaced before. The old timber was so much better.
> ...



Interesting; any links to support for this (other than the people selling it, of course) ?

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (13 May 2015)

The paint may or may not have influenced it, but the timber itself was much more solid and heavier - slower grown, much, much closer annual rings.


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

phil.p":1gnzz4hf said:


> The paint may or may not have influenced it, but the timber itself was much more solid and heavier - slower grown, much, much closer annual rings.


Not necessarily so. 
The biggest difference in older timber is that larger trees were extracted from virgin forest, which provided us with wider boards from a wider range of species, now difficult to obtain.
I've planed up big old timbers from old buildings and there is no discernible difference between 200 year old and modern redwood in my (admittedly limited) direct experience.
But there's a huge difference in the paints used. I am now using linseed oil paint on old and new work and the improved durability is beyond doubt. It surprised me - I normally don't believe any sales spiels and just take it for granted they are all rip offs!


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

bugbear":ujfj98jm said:


> Jacob":ujfj98jm said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":ujfj98jm said:
> ...


It's a developing idea based on the experience of people using these paints. I should have said _is being_ overturned.
There is no particular evidence that lead itself accounts for longevity, other than by association.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 May 2015)

I've got a mate that runs a commercial painters merchants. I'll ask him, he'll have had loads of feedback I imagine.


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## bugbear (13 May 2015)

Jacob":2o5w0c7o said:


> It's a developing idea based on the experience of people using these paints.



Is there a forum(*) where this is discussed or something? Who are these people?

BugBear

(*) In a world where there's a large and active forum for discussing torches, I'd believe anything!


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

bugbear":o7opytsi said:


> Jacob":o7opytsi said:
> 
> 
> > It's a developing idea based on the experience of people using these paints.
> ...


Google "linseed oil paint"


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":23wpskgs said:


> I've got a mate that runs a commercial painters merchants. I'll ask him, he'll have had loads of feedback I imagine.


I could be wrong but he will probably will know nothing about linseed oil paints such as Allbacks. They aren't mainstream at all, but are becoming better known, particularly in the worlds of conservation and "green building".


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## bugbear (13 May 2015)

Jacob":1v8gjorj said:


> bugbear":1v8gjorj said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1v8gjorj said:
> ...



I was after the "it's the oil not the lead" information you were quoting. Got a more specific link than a general google?

I can find plenty of bold claims by people selling the stuff! Common sense says that poisonous white lead might be a better deterrent to insect damage and rot than a (nearly) edible vegetable oil. 

BugBear


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## RogerS (13 May 2015)

This is quite a useful link http://www.tendringdc.gov.uk/sites/defa ... _27910.pdf

as is the SPAB website.

I'm with Phil on the issue of older timber being better. Taking out some old windows, the grain is beautifully straight, hardly any knots and very tightly packed growth rings. Modern softwood in comparison is c**p.


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

bugbear":352xk5au said:


> Jacob":352xk5au said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":352xk5au said:
> ...


ALL the info about modern linseed oil pain durability is about paint without lead. 
It is durable without lead. 
From this it seems reasonable to infer that it's the linseed oil not the lead which made old linseed oil paint durable. 
Proving it is another issue, but as nobody will use lead anyway, proving that lead paint is durable is fairly pointless.


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## zb1 (13 May 2015)

RogerS":16afycla said:


> I'm with Phil on the issue of older timber being better. Taking out some old windows, the grain is beautifully straight, hardly any knots and very tightly packed growth rings. Modern softwood in comparison is c**p.



Try getting FAS not Vths. Good softwood is out there if you specify it and are willing to pay the extra. It does take a bit of sourcing but it is out there. I think it's more a scale of economy thing, the mill can shift much more Vths quality which most people find 'good enough' for a lot less labour than sorting everything. I've even managed to find some good stuff in with the Vths and U/S if I happen to be at the merchants on delivery day before they drag the good stuff out for their bigger accounts.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 May 2015)

Jacob":2xtdpp3s said:


> Random Orbital Bob":2xtdpp3s said:
> 
> 
> > I've got a mate that runs a commercial painters merchants. I'll ask him, he'll have had loads of feedback I imagine.
> ...



Absolutely, it makes perfect sense that a bloke who has spent best part of 25 years in the professional paint trade, which incidentally, supply niche markets as well as "Magnolia" would know nothing about.....well....paint 

But I could be wrong!


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

zb1":2kk7ty32 said:


> RogerS":2kk7ty32 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with Phil on the issue of older timber being better. Taking out some old windows, the grain is beautifully straight, hardly any knots and very tightly packed growth rings. Modern softwood in comparison is c**p.
> ...


Yep. My last lot of unsorted Swedish redwood was absolutely top notch and as good as any redwood I've found in old buildings. I always buy it (it is only sold) unseen, by grade, on the understanding that it is straight from the heap (as graded by the Swedish saw mill not sorted by the timber merchant here) and not someone else's left overs i.e. all customers get the same deal you can't pick and choose. You can complain if it is inferior but it rarely is.
Interestingly I also bought 5th sawn 1" boards to replace old floor boards - they appear to be identical in terms of growth rings knots and general appearance. In other words the Victorians graded and selected their timber in 1874 in much the same way that we do. No surprise really.
The fact that later joiners used poorer quality timber has nothing to do with changes in the trees; they can use better stuff if they want to.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 May 2015)

The market was a lot smaller and the forests more extensive - the rubbish probably didn't even hit the market.


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## MIGNAL (13 May 2015)

Linseed is a drying Oil, which will tend to flex with the movement of the timber. Add too much resin and the 'varnish' will become brittle. I've no idea what was in some of the old paints but Lead is (or was) added to varnishes/Linseed oil to act as a drier. They may have added resin to give greater gloss, Lead as the drier and then the pigment, which was probably a lot of earth pigments before the synthetics came about. Too much lead can have consequences for the finished film, at least when put into varnishes. 
The Linseed Paint is probably much purer. At a guess highly polymerised Linseed Oil and earth pigments. Doesn't get much simpler. Probably very similar to artist Oil paints but much thinner.
It may be the case that modern paints are relying on cold solve modern resins, which is obviously cheaper than heating Oil and mixing in seriously hot resins. I'm guessing though and a lot of it is based on my varnish knowledge.


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

MIGNAL":2qhvhgm5 said:


> Linseed is a drying Oil,


No it isn't. It hardens by oxidation, there are no VOCs.


> .....
> The Linseed Paint is probably much purer. At a guess highly polymerised Linseed Oil and earth pigments.


"Boiled cold pressed" (it says on this tin). This particular shade of dull red has iron oxide pigment and chalk filler.
I can dig out some ancient recipes for decorators paint if anybody is interested. I've a book somewhere.


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

phil.p":2ij7bujr said:


> The market was a lot smaller and the forests more extensive - the rubbish probably didn't even hit the market.


Dunno I think people used anything and everything - and selected it too, wherever they could. They also re-used stuff - old buildings are full of second hand timber with empty mortices in odd places.
I imagine the trans atlantic trade would be for better stuff but the Baltic isn't that far. U/S was graded 1st to 3rds and also identified by source - area or port: "Archangel", "Kara Sea" better quality being further north than "Baltic" etc.


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## bugbear (13 May 2015)

Jacob":3okuj4p9 said:


> ALL the info about modern linseed oil pain durability is about paint without lead.
> It is durable without lead.
> From this it seems reasonable to infer that it's the linseed oil not the lead which made old linseed oil paint durable.
> Proving it is another issue, but as nobody will use lead anyway, proving that lead paint is durable is fairly pointless.



Ah, I see.

So no one's _actually_ compared the durability with and without lead, it's just your inference.

We're a LONG way from "There was an assumption that lead gave old paint it's longevity but this notion has been overturned."

BugBear


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## Jacob (13 May 2015)

bugbear":1u7twm06 said:


> Jacob":1u7twm06 said:
> 
> 
> > ALL the info about modern linseed oil pain durability is about paint without lead.
> ...


He's on his little hobby horse again! :lol: :lol: 
It's been discovered that the paint WITHOUT lead is durable. This suggests that lead does not contribute so much to durability as has been assumed but yes this is an inference. It'd take 50 years or so to prove but as we don't use lead any more who cares?


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## MIGNAL (13 May 2015)

Jacob":3a23jl24 said:


> MIGNAL":3a23jl24 said:
> 
> 
> > Linseed is a drying Oil,
> ...



Linseed is classed as a drying oil. . . because it dries by oxidation. Olive oil is classed as a non drying oil because it doesn't dry by oxidation. Those are the two basic classes that oil falls into. Technically I think there is a third (semi drying) but it's easier to just use the two classes.
'Boiled cold pressed' could mean anything, although the 'cold pressed' part is probably right. That would make for a high quality form of linseed and will add significantly to the price.
Boiled could quite literally indicate that it has been heated to a high temperature, which would mean that it's been polymerised. Polymerised oils tend to dry faster and a little harder. Unfortunately they also used the term 'boiled' for Linseed Oil that hasn't been heated, although it will have a drier (not lead) added to it. This is the cheap stuff that is found in your local DIY. Raw Linseed is just that. Sun thickened Oil is exposed to sun light (over time) which leads to oxidation without forming a film. It;s thicker than boiled or raw Linseed. Stand Oil is Linseed that is heated without the prescence of oxygen.
I'm afraid I've read too many Books on Violin varnish, they have a daily diet of this kind of information ( times by a factor of one million).


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## Lons (13 May 2015)

Flynnwood":3g6glohj said:


> Jacob":3g6glohj said:
> 
> 
> > I'm about 7 years into linseed oil paints and the difference is astonishing. I wish I had known about it sooner.
> ...



Yep have done for a number of years now. I believe they did it to comply with environmental issues during manufacture. My last 2 BMWs and Audi A6 were water based and my new Audi the same. I'm sure the paint is thinner than it used to be!


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## bugbear (13 May 2015)

Jacob":16p0maul said:


> bugbear":16p0maul said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, I see.
> ...



I care about the truth. Other approaches are to discussion are available, sadly,

Do you, in fact have _any actual data_ you can point to as to the durability of the paint, and the protection given to the underlying wood, for either lead or non-lead pigments?

EDIT; whilst looking at this, I discovered that the Art world is greatly exercised by white lead being nearly banned and nearly unobtainable.
Here's an interesting link on that POV.

http://paintingperceptions.com/sounding ... e-shortage

BugBear


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## MIGNAL (13 May 2015)

Lead was used as a drier. It's been known as such since Roman times. These days they use other substances such as manganese. Oil paints/varnishes are extremely slow drying if they aren't subject to intense UV. Slow drying means lots of crud and dust sticking to the finished film. Lead was used to accelerate the drying of oil based paints and varnishes. It probably also had other consequences for the pigments. I do know that if too much lead was added the varnish would eventually crack badly.


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## Jacob (14 May 2015)

MIGNAL":14x1x0we said:


> Lead was used as a drier. It's been known as such since Roman times. These days they use other substances such as manganese. Oil paints/varnishes are extremely slow drying if they aren't subject to intense UV. Slow drying means lots of crud and dust sticking to the finished film. Lead was used to accelerate the drying of oil based paints and varnishes. It probably also had other consequences for the pigments. I do know that if too much lead was added the varnish would eventually crack badly.


Yes - lead compounds used for pigments too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead


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## heimlaga (14 May 2015)

I think the Great Double Glazing Con is all about the businessmen who have convinced the British people that double glazing must be a sealed package fitted into a modern sash. The result being that perfectly sound old windows are shifted out for no reason.

Up here in Finland and Sweden we normally use double sash windows. The inner sash is always made tighter than the outer to allow for some degree of ventilation. I am fairly sure that any old reasonably well made and sound British style window could be converted into a fairly energy efficient double sash windov just by adding a hinged inner sash with a simple glass pane. An extremely simple and cheap sulution that would save homeowners a lot of hard earned money and provide job for local joinery workshops. 
In my oppinion such clever local solutions would do a lot to get Europe out of this debth spiral.....but of cause International Big Business wouldn't lite it.

Old windows were generally made from much better wood than new ones. Slow grown Scandinavian pine heartwood is the appropriate material and nowadays that kind of wood usually ends up as pulp or concrete molds. Theese days very little such wood is produced because the forests are thinned heavily to promote rapid volume growth. All because the big pulp mills and saw mills want it that way.
Therefore we get fast grown knotty tiomber that doesn't last. It is still possible to get proper sash materials but then you have to either be very lucky and get a batch by chance or be able to bypass the ordinary delivery chain and pick your logs in the forest or at the sawmill.


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## Jacob (14 May 2015)

heimlaga":2xxgyhvi said:


> I think the Great Double Glazing Con is all about the businessmen who have convinced the British people that double glazing must be a sealed package fitted into a modern sash. The result being that perfectly sound old windows are shifted out for no reason.
> 
> Up here in Finland and Sweden we normally use double sash windows. The inner sash is always made tighter than the outer to allow for some degree of ventilation. I am fairly sure that any old reasonably well made and sound British style window could be converted into a fairly energy efficient double sash windov just by adding a hinged inner sash with a simple glass pane. An extremely simple and cheap sulution that would save homeowners a lot of hard earned money and provide job for local joinery workshops.
> In my oppinion such clever local solutions would do a lot to get Europe out of this debth spiral.....but of cause International Big Business wouldn't lite it.
> ...


Instead of double sashes, internal or external shutters used to be more common in the UK. Internal shutters, well fitted, made of timber, would surely provide much more insulation than DG but they are completely out of fashion.
But yes to double sashes - or sash outside and casement inside - a good idea and a lot cheaper than DG total replacement. I've suggested these on several jobs but never had a bite.
We get good Swedish timber here - maybe they export the best stuff? Reminds me of our Australian visitors recently who were jealous of the Oz wines we get here - better than they can get at home.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 May 2015)

Jacob":sqjg65fi said:


> Reminds me of our Australian visitors recently who were jealous of the Oz wines we get here



Would that be the Aussie reds that have so much sunshine from the grapes they reach out of the bottle and punch you in the face! I wish they would take the ones we have here back home where they belong. Give me almost any cheap French red over an Ocker any day of the week. Sunburnt rubbish.

Drinking Aussie reds always reminds me of the Monty Python sketch, they got it spot on IMO.


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## Jacob (14 May 2015)

Apparently it often does really well in blind tasting tests even with french experts. Certainly passes my own blind drunk tests and that's good enough for me.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2015)

Nothing wrong with Australian. Or New Zealand, Chilean, Argentine, South African, Spanish, Italian ... with the exception of the very best of French, they're all better value in my book. As one well known Australian chef said - there's nothing at all wrong with French wine. I cook with it all the time.


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## Random Orbital Bob (14 May 2015)

I agree for all those you mention (especially New Zealand whites) with the exception of Aussie reds...just waaay too in your face. Cocky git of an Ozzy to say he cooks with the French wines


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## RobinBHM (14 May 2015)

To go back to the OP's question about double glazing being a con.......

Part L of the building regs, conservation of fuel and power, is all part of the governments goal to help reach the UK's target for reducing the carbon footprint (pointless while China and India are belching out smoke!)

The problem is that the UK has loads of housing stock that is old and is not energy efficient. The reality is that it is prohibitively expensive to make very significant improvements in energy efficiency to an old house as each part of the building envelope would need upgrading to achieve a real incremental gain. It would be hard to justify double glazing in pay back period terms. For most people, loft insulation and sealing draughts achieve the greatest gains, after that the capital costs ramp up against diminishing returns. No doubt energy costs will keep increasing to encourage householders to pay out for energy improvements.

Glazing is the part of a house which has the lowest heat insulation value, single glazing has a u value of about 4.5 and double about 1.2 (1.6 for whole frame value), whilst a wall would be 0.25 and a flat roof 0.18 (for part L 2010). For a new house double glazing is very much worthwhile. 

Windows of course now have energy ratings, so you can choose a window like you might choose a fridge freezer. These ratings are based on a mixture of u value and g which is solar gain. To go from a C rating to an A rating generally requires low iron glass which is clearer; Why? it allows more sunlight in to a house and therefore increases the 'g' value. There's one small flaw in this, the heat gained to the house while the sun is out, is all dissipated when people get home form work and want a warm house after the sun has gone down!

What I say is turn the heating down and compensate by drinking more wine!


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2015)

Cloudy Bay is over rated, there are up and coming ones that are better. I gave a glass of an NZ sweet to a a very well trained French sommelier who insisted it was Grand Cru Sauternes, this was about 14yrs ago - he didn't believe that anywhere other than France could have made it. No wonder their wine industry got in the doldrums. There was a blind tasting done a while ago in the Telegraph, where the NZ reds (Gimbletts Gravels) came out well against the French. Oz reds are OK if you keep to some of the lighter ones - Coonawaras will dissolve your throat without food. A good Margaret River, now ...

Sorry, OP, for the hijack ...


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## Jacob (14 May 2015)

I've found that "serious" wine (and whisky) tasters can become quite befuddled if they can't see the label or a price tag.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2015)

Yes, the IWC have just given 498 medals to supermarket wines, I've just seen in The Times.


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## bugbear (14 May 2015)

Jacob":2xo9pyec said:


> I've found that "serious" wine (and whisky) tasters can become quite befuddled if they can't see the label or a price tag.



I don't know what tests you actually did, but a Mr Hodgson did a belter:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... e-analysis

BugBear


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## RogerS (14 May 2015)

Ah reminds me of the (probably apocryphal) story about wine-tasters who were asked to sample a special release from the Queen's cellars. To a man and a woman they all exclaimed how exquisite the wine was. Shortly after (think it might have been a child) took a sip, spat it out and said 'that's vinegar'. It was.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2015)

Swmbo at a dinner party (she was about 20), not used to red wine, necks one mouthful - God, what on earth is that? First and last time she drunk Lafite Rothschild.


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## Jacob (14 May 2015)

bugbear":2w6cv212 said:


> ......
> I don't know what tests you actually did, .....


I think we all tend to believe the hype especially if we forked out for a pricier bottle. 
But it's easy to test - just offer round drinks with the labels out of sight and ask for comments. 
And/or prime them; " is this what a £15 wine should taste like?" etc. or "what do you think of this malt?" as you pass them a glass of Bells.
Then there are those interminable chats about drinks we had in far away times/places and the fact that everybody seemed to have liked every single one* of them as long as it had alcohol in it and hadn't actually turned to vinegar!

*odd exceptions - meths etc - "good colour and alcohol value for money but foul taste" :roll:
PS and I once left a foul pint in a pub in East Cowes - just by the ferry and it was closing down I believe. About 25 years ago?


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2015)

This could be quite an interesting thread - can a mod split it off? - it's not fair to the OP.


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## MMUK (14 May 2015)

Nice to see some things never change. Jacob still talking complete bo***cks :lol:


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## blackrodd (14 May 2015)

Penfolds Koonunga hill, Cabernet Sauvignon, Or Rawsons Retreat, an Excellent pastime!
And works well for my "buds"
I really can't stand french wine, love everything else, but the wine and fish soup
Rodders


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## Phil Pascoe (14 May 2015)

Good bouillabaisse is wonderful. I managed a few tots of nice Cognac one afternoon sitting in Harrods Front window. £500 a double, £2,700 a bottle at the cheapest, I don't think I'll be buying any though. Went home with a cheap £125 bottle.


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## blackrodd (14 May 2015)

Cognac, now yer talkin', Yep! that's all I could afford, £120.00 a bottle for an XO
Boull--whatsit, is that the fish soup? Ghastly stuff!
Much depends on you're pallette, I like "Woody" Fruity wine.
Rodders


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## RogerS (15 May 2015)

Oi....can I have my thread back, please !!


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## doorframe (15 May 2015)

RogerS":16vuf5j6 said:


> Oi....can I have my thread back, please !!



No.

The best wine is *Annie's Of Essex*. That's SWIMBO, BTW. She's been making wine for 25 yrs and for approx 50p -£1 a bottle you just can't go wrong.


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## bugbear (15 May 2015)

doorframe":3u1qen52 said:


> RogerS":3u1qen52 said:
> 
> 
> > Oi....can I have my thread back, please !!
> ...



Sounds good - if I send you £12.00 can I have a case delivered?

 

BugBear (maker of fine quality Sloe gin)


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## Random Orbital Bob (16 May 2015)

RogerS":2ls8odai said:


> Oi....can I have my thread back, please !!



Oops...apologies Roger.....those were my ramblings that went a bit off piste. Spent the day in hospital with the Missus yesterday so got a bit side tracked with some real life.

Anyway, just to put the lid on it.....all of those of you who drink and promote Australian wines are clearly philistines. Those of you who believe Australian wines are better than French should be immediately hung drawn and quartered for crimes of a sacrilege nature. I mean "sacre bleu". :shock: #-o 

You'll be telling me "Fosters" is better than Theakston's Old Peculiar next!!


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## woodpig (16 May 2015)

I can't believe some of you blokes. :? The OP starts a nice thread about double glazing and then some of you go banging on about Linseed Oil, :shock: and if that's not bad enough it then goes on to a virtual wine tasting!  Give it a rest!

So, what 55" TV should I buy then? ... :lol:


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## MIGNAL (16 May 2015)

The 52" one.


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## Doug B (16 May 2015)

Jacob":38za91z7 said:


> PS and I once left a foul pint in a pub in East Cowes - just by the ferry and it was closing down I believe. About 25 years ago?




:shock: :shock: that must have been a bad pint, worse than the beer at the Bell?


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## Jacob (16 May 2015)

The Bell - once served the best pint of Bass ever, and then a bad one. It wasn't that bad I drank mine I've had worse!
You wins, you loses; life innit?


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## stuartpaul (18 May 2015)

Jacob":1dtm3f61 said:


> The Bell - once served the best pint of Bass ever, and then a bad one. It wasn't that bad I drank mine I've had worse!
> You wins, you loses; life innit?



Bass? Beer? I don't think so! :twisted: 

'Bottom fallen out of your world?
Get drunk on Bass and let the world fall out of your bottom!'

At least that's what it said on the wall of the Bass recycling room!


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## Doug B (18 May 2015)

I was weened on Bass, one of the finest beers to be had if kept well, though to be avoided if in the Bell [-( 8-[


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## RogerS (18 May 2015)

I think I'm going unsubscribe from my thread. :evil:


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## Doug B (18 May 2015)

RogerS":1r2gifze said:


> I think I'm going unsubscribe from my thread. :evil:



Sorry Rog, if it's any consolation I think it's a con


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## paulm (18 May 2015)

Random Orbital Bob":2zq6mceq said:


> Those of you who believe Australian wines are better than French should be immediately hung drawn and quartered for crimes of a sacrilege nature. I mean "sacre bleu". :shock: #-o
> 
> You'll be telling me "Fosters" is better than Theakston's Old Peculiar next!!



Yes on Aussie wines, mid range anyway, and a big no on the Fosters !

You could try and convert me on the wine front by supplying copious samples Rob, but don't even think about it on the Fosters idea :lol: 

Cheers, Paul


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## Random Orbital Bob (18 May 2015)

Sorry Roger.......the membership are quite literally revolting


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