# Kity K5



## philjones (7 May 2007)

I just bought a Kity K5 combination machine and I would like some info regarding the spindle moulder. The single blade cutters for this machine are long gone it seems and so if any one out there has any or has any suggestions as to modifying it to take a standard block I would be grateful. 
I don't think it would be hard to modify but I would love to hear other peoples experience with this machine. Also if there is any one out there with a manual for this machine or info about the attachments which i have none. 

Oh and Hi as I'm new here. i'm a novice woody and just love revealing the beauty from inside of bits that probably would end up in the burner or are discarded as waste. Oh and I make sheds and stuff from pallets, hence the planer/thicknesser and moulder.

Phil =|


----------



## DaveL (7 May 2007)

Hi Phil, 

Welcome to the forum.


----------



## philjones (7 May 2007)

Hi and thanks. Just noticed the very swish technology on this site has converted my smiley into a picture.... 
I am impressed with the spellchecker too, I suspect there may be some IT nerds around here as well as professional woodies. I think I'm going to have to go back to school just to catch up. 

Ironically it didn't recognise the word "spellchecker" though :?


----------



## Newbie_Neil (7 May 2007)

Hi Phil

Welcome to the forum. Sorry I can't help with the question.

What is the weather like down in Devon?

Cheers
Neil


----------



## 9fingers (7 May 2007)

Hi Phil,

I have a Kity CK26 combi and as well as the 'french' cutters it can take a standard 30mm bore cutter block. I'm not familiar with the K5 but assume that from your comments it is not a standard 30mm spindle?
Or maybe it is 30mm but you don't have the parts needed to secure the block?
Maybe some key dimensions and a few photos would help. I might be able to suggest some solutions.

Bob

Kity bits do turn up on fleabay every now and then.


----------



## RustHunter (7 May 2007)

Scheppach bought out the Kity name when then went into receivership a few years back. Kity machines are still sold in France so have you tried writing to NMA Agencies in Brighouse to see if they can help?

I would like to see some photographs of your sheds. I am thinking about building a second shed in the garden and the idea of making it from receycled material like pallets is very appealing. Where do you get timber long enough? A standard pallet is only 1.2m square so that is not big enough is it?

Ted


----------



## jasonB (7 May 2007)

I think the K5 was an earlier version of the single motor bestcombi (kity 5023) which came with a 30mm spindle that was slotted for french cutters. I which case you should be able to mount a small dia alloy block.

Do you have any spacer rings or any of the shaw guard?

As its been out of production for probably 20yrs I doubt NMA will be any help, you may have more luck talking to toolmart as they are run by one of the old kity importers and they have some parts for the K5 (you will be best to e-mail as not much kity stuff on the site)

Jason


----------



## philjones (8 May 2007)

Thanks to you all for the advice. I shall reply to you all so sorry if I miss a point from your comments. 

OK the spindle is about 15mm so would need a converter block machining, this isn't a big problem as I have access to a lathe and can make one easily. I was ever so slightly concerned at the method of securing the block. The base to the spindle is 38mm so would provide support and grip for a block I suspect but as I have never seen a spindle moulder block I am unsure how this is secured and I am assuming it is by friction only. The securing screw on top of the spindle is M6 so would have to be retapped to M8 or M10 if I have the room. I guess i should take a trip to somewhere and have a look at the requisite components but I am a bit remote here and Axminster is over an hour each way. ANY PHOTOS OF AN EXPLODED ASSEMBLY????? 

The weather here in Devon for whichever of you asked is as always..... 
I used to have a postcard of a sheep in a field with a cloud raining onto it and the second picture was identical but for a flower... the card said devon in winter and devon in summer....... 

I rang NMA, they don't keep anything for the K5, they are very helpful as I have a Scheppach DMS900 lathe which had a faulty drive. Ask John about my box that I sent the headstock back in.. I think it is part of their legends now. 

The sheds are made from special pallets my neighbour gets his plastic sheets delivered on. Sadly they are now skeleton pallets which means I no longer get 6"x1" boards 22' long over 3"x3" timbers. Now they are 22' or 19'+3', 4"x3" timbers over 5'. 6' or 7' 3x3 with 3/4"x6 boards that usually break but make bird houses and kindling. 
I don't see how I can include a photo here but I will try and post one when I have had a shuffty at the site better.ADVICE....? 

I will try and sort out some pics of the spindle and its components and post these as well..... do. ...? 

Thanks again for your advice and the plethora of replies.Seems Like I have found a good forum for a change. 

Respect 

Phil

Ah ha... I spyed the link at the top of the page IMG for image, now would you like to explain how it works .... sorry I am not much of a teccy despite all my gadgetry I live with. (there's a long story there when you have time)


----------



## Shultzy (8 May 2007)

Phill, try here it shows how to post images

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=14776


----------



## 9fingers (8 May 2007)

Hi Phil,

I think you will find this forum very helpful on a wide range of wood related topics.
I'm a bit concerned about mounting a cutter block on such a slender shaft that will have slot cut into it for the french cutters. I don't know how small a block can be obtained but i'd feel nervous about a normal 100mm one, simply because of the monentum/energy in such a block spinning at 5000 rpm plus.

Good luck & Take care!
Bob


----------



## philjones (9 May 2007)

[/url][/img]

ok for those interested this is two pallets with 3' taken out of the middles and 3x3 roof trusses the sides split into two 10' sections for moving. this is a 20' x 12' garage/workshop but could also be an office and gallery as 1 is about to become.




[/url][/img]

this is the mounting post with the cutter

I keep tring to upload more pics but it just times out. Ihave a very slow connection here so that is possibly the problem. It looks like I can do 1 photo a day at the moment.

At least this gives something to go on.

Thanks for your replies,


Phil


----------



## Shultzy (9 May 2007)

Phil, Why don't you use one of the free photo site. They allow you to upload multiple files at once or use a ftp program. I use Fotopic but there are many others out there.


----------



## philjones (9 May 2007)

I have been and it is simply because I have a max connection speed of 1Mb running via damp string and coffin nails that BT call a rural network. No luxuries like NTL or fibre optic out here. I only got rid of the WB900 unit when I went broadband and if you know telecoms you will know that even the romans had better.
It isn't lack of expertise from this end even though i am no teccy.

Thanks anyway


----------



## Scrit (9 May 2007)

Hi Phil

That is probably one of the smallest spindles I've ever seen! The smallest diameter spindles normally available on kit in the UK were generally 3/4in, but that one looks like 16mm, or possibly 15mm. That may be an issue in upgrading it to use conventional blocks. 

Before upgrading there a few things to look at. Firstly are there any cracks in the spindle itself? On French heads these can propagate out from the square corners of the cutter slot. Are there any burrs around the slot opening itself? If there are these will need to be carefully removed by a spot of hand filing or better re-turning the spindle on a lathe. Thirdly how good is the thread inside the top of the spindle. As it's Kity it will be metric, but what size is it? Looks like M8 to me (you said M6), so screw a machine screw into the threaded hole and see if the thread is sloppy. If it is I'd say it is dangerous to continue. What height of spindle to you have? To accommodate a Euro block you'll need at least 45mm of spindle height - 5mm for the shoulder at the bottom of a top hat bushing and 40mm for the cutter itself. Is the available shaft above the table long enough? Finally the opening in the table appears to be around 62mm in diameter. Are there any removeable rings to enlarge the opening? With spindle moulders it is normal to be able to wind the cutter down so that the block sits partly below the table - for cuts such as rebates, etc. Unfortunately the smallest Euro profile blocka available are all around 75 to 85mm in diameter so if you can't lift out another table ring it will not be possible to use a Euro block without starting to build false table surfaces, etc.

Assuming that everything is OK, I'd go for the smallest diameter cutterblock I could find. An ally block might be preferable to a steel one because the steel blocks are very heavy, but both Freud and CMT do 78mm diameter Euro safety blocks but I think they're steel blocks. The block will need to sit on a deep top hat bushing with a 2 to 5mm thick shoulder at the bottom. This bushing should extend 30mm up the inside bore of the cutter and the cutterblock would then need to be held down using a steel washer sitting inside the recess at the top of the block. The recess on Whitehill Euro blocks is 40mm in diameter and the "washer" supplied with is about 8mm thick, although they are normally used with an M12 or M16 countersunk head hex recess (or Torx recess) machine screws so maybe yours would be best fixed with a high tensile bolt and a thin washer on top: 






The only other questions might be whether or not your fence opening will accommodate the bigger block and whether or not you have sufficient rise and fall on the shaft to make the best use of the block

If you do manage to convert this machine I'd suggest checking the state of the threads and inner shaft frequently as I feel you are running near the engineering limits for such a small shaft, although I am erring on the side off caution.

Scrit


----------



## philjones (9 May 2007)

Thanks for the very thorough reply. 






The spindle is 15mm and the thread is M6, the spindle is 65mm high. The top of the spindle is composite as a dowsing of wood stain revealed. There is a brazed in piece through which the thread is cut, which is just visible in the photo. 
As you can see the ring is removable and gives me a good clearance. 
The washer at the base is a top hat that seats on the bearing which is what can be seen in the plan view. 
Apart from a little burr at the point where the cutter sits on the shaft the shaft is in fair shape. I had in mind a block that would fit between the spindle and the cutter block though I wasn't sure if this would need securing in any way. 
I would consider retapping the thread to M8 as the thread is sloppy and in my opinion far too small. 
I have seen these 78mm blocks but as you say these are steel and did put me off. I haven't found an alloy block other than 96mm. 
Not looking good from here, hence why i asked the question in the first place. 

Thanks, 

Phil


----------



## Scrit (9 May 2007)

philjones":mak1quvx said:


> Not looking good from here, hence why I asked the question in the first place.


As you have the facility to turn steel have you considered removing the entire spindle and turning a new one with a 30mm diameter? Possibly a bit too complex depending on how much time/effort yo are willing to expend.

A long time ago I did use French cutters, which at the end of the day are just pieces of medium-to-high carbon steel. The plusses are that they can be ground in minutes and any profile you want can be made really cheaply and altered in seconds with just a file and a stone - you actually only grind one edge, the other is merely a clearance for balance. On the minus side they can dull after just 40 to 50 feet of run, the bolts will periodically loosen and the cutter can then eject, they'll sometimes break or bend if you feed in too hard, they are only really like a scraper and so you can't make very deep cuts in a single pass (surely the point of having a spindle?), they can be incredibly noisy (depending on the shape) but worst of all you absolutely must use them with adequate guarding (full Shaw guard) because they simply can't be seen when they are running so it's all too easy to catch your fingers on them if they are unguarded. So for me (trade) they're illegal (have been since the 1970s) and I have no idea where you'd get steel blanks any longer (the later "safety" type had a notch out of the bottom so that they were less likely to be thrown out). In some ways it's a pity because I used to rather like them! :? 

Scrit


----------



## jasonB (9 May 2007)

Phil you may need to check the exact block size, I have an 83mm alloy block made by Le Ravageur where the body is actually 76mm but if you put rebate cutters in it they give an effective diameter of 83mm edge to edge. And don't forget that some knives can project over 25mm from the block giving a gross dia 50mm more than the block.

here is a 78mm block that will take limiters.

With that skinny spindle you will want to keep the block as low on the shaft as possible as it probably has a smaller cross section than a 1/2" router bit :!: 

Jason


----------



## philjones (9 May 2007)

phew...what a lot of quality information. I had considered turning a new spindle though i haven't stripped down the existing one to see what bearings it uses and so what i would have to work with. I have a 2HP motor from a garden shredder that I considered using instead of the motor that comes with the combi. 
All in all what ever I choose to do involves a bit of work and I will have to choose whether that would be better than to simply buy a spindle moulder 2nd hand and be done with it. In truth the machine is a bonus as I have a router table (home made) which does basic work,but having used the moulder with the cutters it came with I am hooked on the prospect of such a versatile tool. 
So thanks for all the excellent advice, though I am placed in the position of being much wiser but no further on. 
Back to the drawing board........ :roll:


----------



## Scrit (10 May 2007)

Phil

JasonB has actually provided an answer of sorts in response to another thread about the CEMA/Tekna combination machine. CEMA, it seems, manufacture an aluminium cutterblock with a 20mm bore and a diameter of just 50mm which appears to take standard Euro 40mm x 4mm double pinned knives. This would probably fit your machine with a simple bush and collar washer at the top and retract below the table (for rebating, etc). See here for details and here for the thread.

Scrit


----------



## philjones (10 May 2007)

Wicked, thats such good news. 

I must say you are all a really good bunch on this site. I had expected that would be that and to give up the idea until ebay came up with some french cutters or I got truly bored and started grinding my own from stock HSS.



Now I just need to find the euros left over from my last visit to spain.

Muchas gracias amigo,

Phil


----------



## thehasbeen (11 Dec 2009)

if anyone with kity products expects any customer support for parts or 
information, don't hold your breath. you'll be long dead before they get back to you. 
i haven't been holding my breath but i have been waiting several months for the company to reply back to me for my request for parts. i email them about twice a week with my request, no answer. 
THANKS ALOT KITY, YOUR WORTHLESS SACK OF - - - -.


----------



## ejimj (14 Dec 2009)

Hello
I have a kity spindle with a 20mm shaft, I bought a moulding block for a 30mm shaft and had it rebored from each side to a depth of approx 6mm and had two "washers" made 6 mm thick with a 20mm centre hole and 30mm outside diameter.
The standard kity locking nut used with the spacers provided with the machine are used to secure the blockvia the "washers" .I have used this for a number of years - at least 15 and so has my brother in law who has a kity combo and regularly borrows my block and cutters.and we have never had a problem.
Hope this is of some help.
EJimJ


----------



## ejimj (14 Dec 2009)

hello 
I just realised that the previous info I gave was incorrect, the outer dia of the "washers" was approx 40mm and the rebore was done so as the washers were a close fit.
sorry
EJimJ


----------

