# Denatured Alcohol - Pass the can of worms opener!



## matthewwh (1 Nov 2006)

I'm putting together a collection of premium quality finishing supplies and the subject of shellac solvents has reared its head.

Ever willing to take a stroll along the path less travelled, I have just had a chat with the nice people at HM Revenue and Customs. 

In order for us to supply 1 liter bottles of highly pure (99%), water clear, denatured alcohol for use in thinning shellac, we would need customers to inform HMRC that they are 'users of small quantities (less than 20 litres per annum) for a specialised hobby or pastime'. 

It's a one-off process which would involve downloading a simple 1 page form from our website, submitting it to HMRC and then sending us a copy of the certificate they issue. 

There are a few more hoops that we would have to jump through as a supplier, but I'm game if you are.

So the question is, would people be willing to register????

Cheers,

Matthew


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## Anonymous (1 Nov 2006)

Why??

Meths works fine - the purple stuff.

Also, Chestnut products sell some very good thinners (disolves flakes quicker than meths does) specifically for shellac too.


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## Nick W (1 Nov 2006)

Finneys also do a meths substitute. Good enough for me.


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## NickWelford (1 Nov 2006)

I often bring back a litre from the USA. I would be willing to send the form. What price were you thinking of retailing at?


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## matthewwh (2 Nov 2006)

Thanks for your comments guys,

Tony, Nick W,

I'd say it's more a question of why not?

Of course there are alternative products available, but this is the right stuff for the job, why should British woodworkers have to compromise? 


Nick Welford,

I haven't costed it out yet but it will be somewhere around the £5.50 - £6 mark for a litre. 

Cheers,

Matthew


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## Nick W (2 Nov 2006)

So long as it:
1) Dissolves flake shellac
2) Evaporates to leave a film of shellac on wood
3) Doesn't add colour
then it *is *the right stuff for the job IMO.

Added to that I don't need to go near HMR&C, and the less I have to do with bureaucracy the better.

Also it is cheaper (£12 for 5l).

So the question really is 'Why?'


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## Alf (2 Nov 2006)

Not sure this is exactly helpful, but I notice recently that Paddy O'Deen on the Old Tools List, and formerly "Mr Shellac", said he only used the alcohol from a newly opened bottle for shellac and relegated the rest to cleaning up duties - it's the water take up from the atmosphere or some such, I believe. Speaking for myself, that ain't gonna happen (lazy blighter that I am) so it's simply not worth going the extra mile with The Revenoo to get the "real deal". On the other hand it's nice to have the option, I s'pose.

Oh, and fwiw the Chestnut stuff is very effective for those of us who worry, perhaps unnecessarily, about using purple meths on very pale woods. I can never recall what it's called - spirit thinners perhaps?

Cheers, Alf


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## dennyk (2 Nov 2006)

I have used the purple Meths for thinning Fiddes Shellac products, I have bought shellac flakes for when I need to make my own mix, the question is, would the purple meths be ok to use? :?


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## Anonymous (3 Nov 2006)

dennyk":661vb2ys said:


> I have used the purple Meths for thinning Fiddes Shellac products, I have bought shellac flakes for when I need to make my own mix, the question is, would the purple meths be ok to use? :?



Yep. Used it many, many times. the purple colour is not evident in the final polish.

The stuff from Chestnut is clear, and dissolves the flakes a bit quicker


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## RogerS (21 Feb 2007)

I stumbled across this thread when looking for denatured alcohol as part of the 'magic mix' for spraying on veneer to flatten it.

My chemist doesn't stock it, thinks it might be another name for ethanol and offered me isopropyl alcohol as an alternative.

Will isopropyl alc. work just as well? If not, can we actually get denatured alcohol in this country and if so where from? Or is there an alternative?


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## George_N (21 Feb 2007)

Denatured alcohol is essentially methylated spirits; 90% ethanol with wood naptha (mostly methanol with some acetone, pyridine and other chemicals). In the UK I think it is usual to add a dye like methyl violet which gives the common purple "meths". The main reason for the additives is, I think to make it undrinkable. I used to work in a pathology lab and we used a lot if industrial methylated spirit, mostly 74 OP (degrees over proof) which doesn't smell like, or have the purple colour of "meths". Not sure is your local chemist would stock it though and a chemical supply house wouldn't sell direct either.


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## RogerS (21 Feb 2007)

Mmmm.interesting, George. Guess it begs the question..

(a) will purple dye in meths colour a veneer?

(b) will isopropyl alcohol have the same effect as 90% ethanol?


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## George_N (21 Feb 2007)

Roger Sinden":14gukgpy said:


> Mmmm.interesting, George. Guess it begs the question..
> 
> (a) will purple dye in meths colour a veneer?
> 
> (b) will isopropyl alcohol have the same effect as 90% ethanol?



Looking at the earlier posts in this thread, the purple colour doesn't seem to be a problem with shellac (Tony's post).

Isopropanol is less volatile than ethanol, so not sure how it would work for what you want.


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## staffie (23 Feb 2007)

Matthew,

Would be interested and would not have a problem with submitting the form to HMRC.

I spoke to friends in Belgium this morning, regagarding this. I get my denatured alcohol from there at the moment. It seems that a few of them use this to make a sherry from. Apparently using green walnuts, sugar, lots of red wine and Denatured alcahol, apparently quite good stuff.

Anyway back to HRMC, let us know how you are getting on. 

Thanks


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## Chris Knight (23 Feb 2007)

staffie":36469vq7 said:


> I spoke to friends in Belgium this morning, regagarding this. I get my denatured alcohol from there at the moment. It seems that a few of them use this to make a sherry from. Apparently using green walnuts, sugar, lots of red wine and Denatured alcahol, apparently quite good stuff.



How will your friends recognise you when they have gone blind? :lol:


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## George_N (23 Feb 2007)

waterhead37":e1qzfnzf said:


> staffie":e1qzfnzf said:
> 
> 
> > I spoke to friends in Belgium this morning, regagarding this. I get my denatured alcohol from there at the moment. It seems that a few of them use this to make a sherry from. Apparently using green walnuts, sugar, lots of red wine and Denatured alcahol, apparently quite good stuff.
> ...



*DO NOT* under any circumstances drink methanol or denatured alcohol. As Chris says this stuff will cause irreversible blindness...no laughing matter.


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## staffie (23 Feb 2007)

My apologies for any misunderstanding my post may have caused. Denatured alcohol is poisonous because of the high alcohol content and should not be consumed. I should have been more specific in the post as they only use a very small qty. 

Once again my apologies for any misunderstandings caused. 

Jock[/quote]


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## dunbarhamlin (28 Feb 2007)

Denatured alcohol is poisonous because it's denatured with poison - see how the British state looks after us? :twisted: http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/DE/denatured_alcohol.html

I'd be interested in the slightly-less-toxic and unsmelly alternative too - french polishing and then playing recently finished instruments done with meths is NOT fun.

Cheers
Steve


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## ivan (3 Mar 2007)

isopropanol (or isopropyl alcohol if you prefer) can be used as a retarder when spraying shellac, could be used I would think, if you're not actually french polishing with a rubber.

Chemicals are available in various qualities, 'industrial alcohol' in 5l tins is much cheaper than laboratory product an a plastic winchester bottle. Best look in yellw pages for a supplier. By the way, meths usually contains around 5% water as purchased.

DC says he can see the purple blush on light woods. I am told, but have not tested it, that you can remove the methyl violet (but not the poisonous methanol) by passing the meths through activated charcoal (kitchen extractor charcoal, say) Much easier to sign up for a bottle of the hard stuff, which _may_ contain less water.


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