# Tools for Dovetails



## xraymtb (10 Feb 2010)

Just days away from pulling the trigger on an Incra fence or Leigh jig, I went and borrowed a Rob Cosman DVD...:shock:

I think my woodworking education at the hands of Norm has blinded me but I've just been converted!!! :lol: 

So now I'm considering spending the cash on some hand tools. I did have £400 to spend on a jig or fence but really would balk at spending that on hand tools so am really looking to buy everything I need for hand cutting dovetails for about £200 at most.

I really havent got a good saw for doing these, havent got a dovetail marker (but wondered if a square and sliding bevel could do it) and my chisels are all a bit large and 'chunky' for such fine work.

So who wants to help me spend my cash?!?!?


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## wizer (10 Feb 2010)

Right, Jigsaw, Chippies pencil, Hammer, Chisel, Hardpoint saw. Go



:lol: 

I watched that DVD today as it happens,. The way he does it, makes sense.


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## woodguy7 (10 Feb 2010)

classic answer Wizer, i like it :lol:


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## Chems (10 Feb 2010)

Dovetail Marker (DIY one), Dividers, decent plane for tidying up, Vertias Dovetail saw is meant to be the best for the money, set of chisels, ashley isles are rated, something to sharpen them with, a jewellers saw, decent adjustable square or one of the nice mark gauges and a marking knife. 

Personally I'd get the leigh jig and knock the dovetails out quickly and come back to learning it by hand later. I have a leigh and highly recommend it.


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## Paul Chapman (10 Feb 2010)

Mike Bremner":3b7al6q4 said:


> havent got a dovetail marker



Very easy to make using perspex and a piece of hardwood







The cut-outs are done with the router.

If you want a good dovetail saw at a reasonable price, the Veritas one is excellent.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## LarryS. (10 Feb 2010)

just looked in ebay for rob cosman dvd - £27 :shock: add to that costs of saws, markers etc then it has to be cheaper to buy a leigh jig 

yes i am trying to convince myself


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## mr grimsdale (10 Feb 2010)

DT saw or gents or fine tooth backsaw (15 to 20 tpi). Look for Footprint (still around) or Crown.
Needle file and saw set (you may have to adapt an Eclipse 77).
Bevel edged chisel or two, 1/4" or smaller if you are doing smaller pin holes.
Coping saw. Small mallet.
Marking knife of some sort - my new favourite for DTs is a chisel end x-acto craft knife filed with one bevel - you put it in position and tap the end.
Marking gauge or two.
Sliding bevel if you need it but it can be done easily without. (Nobody needs a DT gauge).
That's about it. £60 should cover it.
Spend the rest on wood.


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## xraymtb (10 Feb 2010)

Chems":3a2ra9dx said:


> Dovetail Marker (DIY one), Dividers, decent plane for tidying up, Vertias Dovetail saw is meant to be the best for the money, set of chisels, ashley isles are rated, something to sharpen them with, a jewellers saw, decent adjustable square or one of the nice mark gauges and a marking knife.
> 
> Personally I'd get the leigh jig and knock the dovetails out quickly and come back to learning it by hand later. I have a leigh and highly recommend it.



I borrowed a Leigh Super 18 for some dovetails a couple of weeks ago - that was what sold me on spending the cash in the first place but then I looked at the Incra and need a new router fence so was leaning that way.

But now, I cant help but think I do this for fun and to get away from the pressure of the office - unfortunately it pays too well to consider giving it up and doing something I enjoy for money!!. I dont see many large sets of drawers in my near future so being able to quickly batch dovetails isnt a high priority.

With the Ashley Iles chisels (I always wanted some anyway) - would you recommend the normal bevel-edged or the special dovetail chisels?

And sorry for being daft but...what the heck is a jewellers saw? :? 



LarryS":3a2ra9dx said:


> just looked in ebay for rob cosman dvd - £27 Shocked add to that costs of saws, markers etc then it has to be cheaper to buy a leigh jig Very Happy



The DVD is good but I'm glad I didnt have to buy it - I think I'll watch it a few times then move on. I might however buy his more advanced DVDs.


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## Chems (10 Feb 2010)

I know what your saying. I've got a Vertias Saw on my shopping list plus some bits to make my own DT marker and I guess I need to invest in some decent chisels overtime. 

If you haven't got a batch of drawers to make then don't get a leigh, do it the fun less dust way!

Oh and a jewellers saw is just a really fine kerf coping saw, to cut the bottom of the dovetail out prior to chiseling.


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## wizer (10 Feb 2010)

I used to have the Super 18 and I loved it. Brilliant bit of kit, easy to use, etc. I made my daughter's walker trolley out of it and I'm so proud when I see the dovetailed corners. I couldn't care one bit that they were machine made. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, I sold it because it takes so long to set up, that for the small jobs I do it's just not worth having. Plus I can't see me wanting to do dovetails on very many of my own furniture pieces anyway. It was an impulse birthday money buy that I should have put towards a domino.

One day I'll get around to practising doing them by hand.


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## Saint Simon (10 Feb 2010)

Marking out is so easy with dividers and an LN style dovetail marker as demonstrated by RC. It was a revelation and now I wouldn't do it any other way. The kids at school picked it up very quickly as well. 

Then its just sawing and chisels! 
Simon


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## Modernist (10 Feb 2010)

I think its's been said - with bells on.

All you actually need for dovetails is

A decent small square (an old Moore and wright engineers square)(ebay)
A home made 1:8 marking template (piece of bent metal)
A marking or cutting guage
A dovetail saw
A coping saw
A couple of chisels say 3mm and 18mm
A thin marking knife (piece of ground hacksaw blade)
A sharp pencil and 150mm rule

total £60-70


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

Modernist":93qyxjfd said:


> I think its's been said - with bells on.
> 
> All you actually need for dovetails is
> 
> ...



I agree, except there's nothing wrong in treating yourself to the Veritas saw. Which is cheap and by all accounts, brilliant. Chisels are a personal choice. The £4.99 set from lidls would probably do it (and I'm serious), but there's also nothing wrong with getting a set of nice chisels from a highly regarded British producer.

Classic Hand Tools sell the type of fret saw that RC uses. However, this style of saw can be bought elsewhere for less if you shop around. I think I saw them on shesto recently.


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## mr grimsdale (11 Feb 2010)

wizer":2h6c01jg said:


> ... there's nothing wrong in treating yourself to the Veritas saw. Which is cheap and by all accounts, brilliant.


but a bit coarse (14tpi) horribly over sold and no better than any old DT saw which is reasonably straight and sharp. Within reason - the Draper offering at about £4 is rubbish, unless they have managed to sort out the sharpening, in which case it would be a much better deal than the Veritas if hardpoint is your thing.


> .......there's also nothing wrong with getting a set of nice chisels from a highly regarded British producer....


Except they cost a bomb and aren't particularly necessary.
This question, like so many others on this forum, can be seen in at least two ways; is it about how to make DTs, or is it about looking for reasons to expand a tool collection?


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## Modernist (11 Feb 2010)

I suppose the difference is that all the tools I listed are essential basic workshop tools with multiple uses and unless you are really starting from scratch you will already have some of them.

The dedicated jigs OTOH are useful only for making dovetails and will spend most of their life under the bench.

Nothing wrong with gaining satisfaction by having an interesting range of tools to choose from but I have yet to stumble accross an avid dovetail jig collector :lol: :lol:


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## woodbloke (11 Feb 2010)

Loads of excellent suggestions here...my two euros

Couple of decent gauges (make your own)
Marking knife (make your own)
Dovetail guage (make your own) ...PaulC has shown an excellent one
Saws...go for one of the Zona range
Chisels...a few of the AI d/t ones would suit
Piercing saw, Axminster do a decent cheapy (Groz)

That about covers it, but you could add different items depending on how far down you wish to venture on the 'Slope' and whether you've got the means to stop once you're on it 8-[ - Rob


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## lurker (11 Feb 2010)

Grim keeps making the same point & I agree with him.

Sometimes we forget where needed tools ends & collecting begins.

I think many of us, hand on heart, have to admit we do both.

My concern is we frighten off people just starting out by suggesting all this expensive & elaborate stuff is needed when in actual fact whats needed is to upgrade your skills.

I imagine an old fashioned apprentice spent his first few years learning sharpening & setting of various tools. Certainly this is what has raised my standards from the wood mangler I used to be before I started hanging out with you lot.


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## woodbloke (11 Feb 2010)

Jim, I agree, but if you look at the list I mentioned, provided you made a lot of the stuff yourself, that little lot (assuming just couple of the AI chisels) would come to about £30ish (without doing the sums) Bear in mind also that the OP had a budget of £300 (or possibly higher) - Rob


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## newt (11 Feb 2010)

Whats wrong with collecting tools at the same time as working some wood. Perhaps when asked this question there should be two lists, one for beginners and the second for collectors. Spending money on tools (as long as the family don't starve) is better than what many spend there money on :x .


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## mr grimsdale (11 Feb 2010)

newt":2ta6wmmg said:


> Whats wrong with collecting tools at the same time as working some wood.


Nothing, except anybody just wanting to know how to do things could easily make the mistake of thinking that every problem is solved by buying another bit of kit


> Perhaps when asked this question there should be two lists, one for beginners and the second for collectors. Spending money on tools (as long as the family don't starve) is better than what many spend there money on


Might be better to spend it on wood!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Feb 2010)

Routered dovetails, even with the best jig available, cannot match a handtool set up for creativity and shape. There is absolutely no way that any jig can cut these dovetails ..







To set out and cut dovetails, you need ..

1. a dovetail saw!
2. a pencil/ballpoint pen and marking knife (for initial marking out).
3. a small square (if transfering tails to pin board).
4. either a dovetail gauge or a sliding bevel gauge (for setting out angles).
5. 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" chisels, preferable bevel edge with thin shoulders (the narrower chisels are for the tails and the wider ones for the pins). 
6. either a coping saw or a jeweller's saw (to remove waste from the tails).

With the dovetail saw, I'd get the Veritas 14 tpi without blinking an eye. An absolute bargain at the price, compared to the upmarket versions. Keep in mind that a newby is not going to sharpen and set a dilapidated vintage saw or convert a cheap new one.

A coping saw will work nearly as well as a jeweller's saw with regard control, but has the edge in speed. The choice is yours. 

Chisels? The AI are excellent, and if you already have your eye on them, well you are set.

All the other items are likely already in your kit.

Want to make your own marking knife? http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/A Knife for Marking Dovetails.html

Want tips on making dovetails (as well as a picture of a jeweller's saw)?http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter Dovetails.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## xraymtb (11 Feb 2010)

newt":18i5rbvn said:


> Whats wrong with collecting tools at the same time as working some wood. Perhaps when asked this question there should be two lists, one for beginners and the second for collectors. Spending money on tools (as long as the family don't starve) is better than what many spend there money on :x .



Its interesting to read these responses - I had thought that asking for a shopping list with a £200-400 budget would have lots of mentions of Lie-Nielsen and the like but so far, it appears a Veritas saw and a few AI chisels is about as expensive as its going to get!!!

I was leaning towards the Veritas - it seems a reasonable price for a specialist saw without going overboard - and the AI chisels as I met them at a show last year and was very impressed with the product and the staff.

From the responses, I'm fairly sure I can get by without a dovetail marker but I do need a better marking knife (currently using my old Stanley). I did see Rob Cosman recommending against using a traditional style marking guage but it all I have - does anyone else use this or should I spend on a wheel type guage?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Feb 2010)

Oops, forgot the marking/cutting gauge.

The Veritas wheel gauge is the cheaper option, with the Tite-Mark the more expensive version. Veritas do sell a couple of even cheaper wheel gauges, but you really want something suited for the average sized drawer.

In my opinion the basic Veritas is good enough, but the adjustable TM is better and probably worth the difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Chems (11 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":2duq6xy5 said:


> wizer":2duq6xy5 said:
> 
> 
> > ... there's nothing wrong in treating yourself to the Veritas saw. Which is cheap and by all accounts, brilliant.
> ...



They now have a 20tpi model:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... =1&jump=44


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

What grumpy old timers like lurker and grimsdale will never get is that some of us _like _having superior tools that look nice and are well made. Bleating ad nauseum about what we need and what we want is really rather boring. Like I said, we all know dovetails can be cut with a bread knife and a pick axe, but there's nothing wrong in having luxury tools. No matter how you drone on about it, you're never going to persuade us to stop buying exactly what we want to buy. :roll:


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## xraymtb (11 Feb 2010)

So what is the argument for and against a finer toothed saw?

Lee Valley suggests the 14tpi is best for thicker stock and the 20 tpi for thinner stock?


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

Mike Bremner":3v4o40gb said:


> does anyone else use this or should I spend on a wheel type guage?



Wheel types are nice. I find the traditional style clunky and hard to hold. The Axi clone of the Titemark is nice, but not as nice as the real thing  I wouldn't bother with the very cheap ones tho. The ones I use most often are the ones MrEd made for me.


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## mr grimsdale (11 Feb 2010)

wizer":2kmr36tf said:


> What grumpy old timers like lurker and grimsdale will never get is that some of us _like _having superior tools that look nice and are well made. ....


No I understand perfectly. 
But what ps me off is the endless denigrating of ordinary tools which could seriously undermine your confidence and lead you to fork out for flashy tools which in the end add nothing to your performance.
Marking gauges frinstance - just about the simplest and easiest of all tools to use , the old trad design being quite perfect and available at little cost (£6 here, cheaper ones available) on ebay for £1 or less.
Yet there is continual 'noise' abt various posher versions which do nothing at all special. Titemark £80!!! ludicrous.

I've just improved my 2 ancient Spear & jackson DT saws by tapping the brass back appropriately to straighten the blade. You hold one end of the blade tight in a wood faced vice and give a sharp tap to the brass back above. This pushes the blade up into the back so that it pulls the edge tighter IYSWIM. You couldn't do that with the Veritas or the LN.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Feb 2010)

Mike Bremner":1s1tkd1t said:


> So what is the argument for and against a finer toothed saw?
> 
> Lee Valley suggests the 14tpi is best for thicker stock and the 20 tpi for thinner stock?



This may help: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodbloke (11 Feb 2010)

Mike Bremner":1vxzhbgk said:


> From the responses, I'm fairly sure I can get by without a dovetail marker but I do need a better marking knife (currently using my old Stanley). I did see Rob Cosman recommending against using a traditional style marking guage but it all I have - does anyone else use this or should I spend on a wheel type guage?


You can use a sliding bevel, I did for years, but there's so many decent dedicated markers out there, you might as well have one. I use a Kell marker but there are plenty of others equally as good.
I always use the standard guages as well (suitably modified) but did get hold of a nice wheel gauge for a Sectet Santa present...yet to be christened in the 'shop. Use whichever sort of gauge you feel most comfortable with - Rob


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## studders (11 Feb 2010)

lurker":18j1fcf2 said:


> Grim keeps making the same point & I agree with him.
> 
> Sometimes we forget where needed tools ends & collecting begins.......
> 
> .



So do I but, with the caveat that you could drive from John O'Groats to Lands End in the cheapest of cars, providing it works of course. Doing the same trip in a somewhat nicer vehicle is probably going to make it a more comfortable trip; it won't make you a better driver though.

Which is what my take on the Grims point is.


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## xraymtb (11 Feb 2010)

Surely though there is a point at which the tool makes a difference here?

I have no saw sharpening skills so fettling an old or cheap saw isnt going to happen. Having watched that DVD, I can see that a minimal set to the saw teeth makes a great difference in making a straight cut and so a dedicated DT saw is my only option.

Also, at the price of the Veritas, I dont think people are recommending 'collector' tools - its half the price of an equivalent LN or Gramercy.

On the side of chisels - I know for a fact that my 1/4" Stanley (which is great for chopping into a mortice and pares nicely when sharpened) won't cut between the tails well as the bevel is too thick and chunky. Again however the AI chisels arent all that expensive - I could get a set of 4 DT chisels and 2 fishtail skews for £100.

Add in a fret/coping/jewellers saw and a new marking knife and I'm still well below my £200 minimum budget.


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## Alf (11 Feb 2010)

S'funny, I was thinking I must have missed the memo where doing things with the crappiest tools was the new way to get bragging rights. It's that old reverse snobbery again - and instead of newbies intimidated by large price tags now we'll get folks too scared to enjoy nice tools. Sigh. Anyway...

Mike, sounds like you're on the right lines. Don't stint on your marking kit - if you don't get the marking out right, all the sawing and chiselling genius in the world won't save you. And if you find a coping saw that doesn't squirm like a greased eel, let us know. :wink:


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

Jacob don't you get board of that line? We all are...


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

Mike Bremner":1yxkdd2z said:


> Add in a fret/coping/jewellers saw and a new marking knife and I'm still well below my £200 minimum budget.



If this is a hobby and it's not money needed elsewhere, then do whatever you bloody like with it! Ignore trolls like grimsdale who just want to stir things up. Yes dovetailing can be done with a minimum of tools but they don't have to be the cheapest you can find. He just wants you to feel guilty about wanting to but good _new _tools.


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## trousers (11 Feb 2010)

> Ignore trolls like grimsdale who just want to stir things up.



Fight, fight, fight....!!

Actually, thats abit strong isn't it wizzer? Wahts wrong with having a different opinion on the subject, or isn't that allowed on this forum?


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## Jake (11 Feb 2010)

It does create barriers to entry to suggest that they are necessary rather than nice.

I love expensive tools and toys, but Grim's viewpoint seems like a perfectly valid one to me, and there is no reason I can see to have some emotional reaction to it.


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## studders (11 Feb 2010)

Sorry but I don't see it as trolling. Having a fixed view maybe but not trolling.


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

I just find it utterly boring that he yarns on about it like those of us who buy nice tools are from Mars. He just likes to be argumentative. Those of use who are for nice shiny tools have all said it's not absolutely necessary, but still nice to have. Yet grimsdale thinks it's utterly absurd that anyone would buy something that is less than 30yrs old.


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## mr grimsdale (11 Feb 2010)

wizer":37r8552z said:


> Jacob don't you get board of that line? We all are...


No I don't, sorry! I'm very interested in what you can do with just a few old tools.

As it happens I've been looking closely at how to do DTs efficiently, amongst other things, over the last few weeks. I don't use crappy old tools at all. Old perhaps but not crappy. I've quite enjoyed getting them sorted and working nicely - it's become a little challenge. Interesting too - and cheap on ebay, old woodies for £0.99, marking gauges for £1 and so on.
I've had to get to grips with sharpening 20 tpi saws and re-facing pitted chisels and plane blades.
Perhaps you are right and I should just bin them and buy a new lot, but that _would_ be really boring.
I have bought one or two new things to fill gaps - a 1/4" footprint chisel, another DT saw (but then I revived my old ones so I needn't have bothered).
And a set of Crown gents saws. Don't really need them either - but it got me into sharpening.

Seems quite a legitimate hobby, whats the problem, should I keep it a secret?


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

No you are completely missing the point. I'm not saying it's wrong to 'sort out' old tools. But not everyone want to do that Jacob. Some of us want nice tools out of the box. It's the fact that you find people buying expensive tools so unusual. Like it's the most bizarre thing you've ever heard. No one here is saying that old tools are not good, but the work involved in 'sorting them out' is no to some people's taste.


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## mr grimsdale (11 Feb 2010)

wizer":153yq2d9 said:


> No you are completely missing the point. I'm not saying it's wrong to 'sort out' old tools. But not everyone want to do that Jacob. Some of us want nice tools out of the box. It's the fact that you find people buying expensive tools so unusual. Like it's the most bizarre thing you've ever heard.


I don't say that at all, I just talk about my alternative view. It's not exactly a radical idea, the web and the literature is full of old tool stuff.


> No one here is saying that old tools are not good, but the work involved in 'sorting them out' is no to some people's taste.


They all need sorting out sooner or later!


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":20ltuo91 said:


> wizer":20ltuo91 said:
> 
> 
> > No you are completely missing the point. I'm not saying it's wrong to 'sort out' old tools. But not everyone want to do that Jacob. Some of us want nice tools out of the box. It's the fact that you find people buying expensive tools so unusual. Like it's the most bizarre thing you've ever heard.
> ...


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## Chems (11 Feb 2010)

wizer":3ojvm4xp said:


> What grumpy old timers like lurker and grimsdale will never get is that some of us _like _having superior tools that look nice and are well made. Bleating ad nauseum about what we need and what we want is really rather boring. Like I said, we all know dovetails can be cut with a bread knife and a pick axe, but there's nothing wrong in having luxury tools. No matter how you drone on about it, you're never going to persuade us to stop buying exactly what we want to buy. :roll:



To true! That bit about the bread knife really made me chuckle.


I've done both routes, cheap and expensive, you can get good results with cheap tools, but the process will be fustrating and annoying, with good tools it will be enjoyable (why I do woodworking) and the resulting work will be of a higher quality. 

But there is a line, does the Vertias wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70. 

There are levels, my old manky focus chisels will cut nicely once sharpened, but they loose there edge very quickly and never get as sharp as some of the other steel I have, so in the process more time is spent sharpneing not doing and the resultant cut isn't as good.


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## mr grimsdale (11 Feb 2010)

It's not about 'cheap' tools as such. 
I've bought cheap tools - these axminster chisels . The steel was perfectly OK and the faces were flat (slightly hollow i.e. perfect), but otherwise they were just too crudely shaped. I wouldn't recommend them to anybody.
I bought a Draper DT saw just on the offchance it was usable - but it wasn't.
I've binned all sorts of rubbish over the years

But I've got Spear & Jackson DT saws, Footprint and Stanley 5001 chisels, Record, Marples, old Ibbotson, Sorby, Sanderson & Kaiser, saws, planes, all sorts etc which are generally top class. There is no struggle against adversity in using them, they are OK.



> does the Veritas wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70.


 Do either of them do any better than the old pattern? I don't think so - and I have used a selection over the years.


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## WoodAddict (11 Feb 2010)

I was watching this yesterday on youtube. looks a nice way of doing it by hand 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp_aW0rO2uk

Paul


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## wizer (11 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":1skctx78 said:


> *I've binned all sorts of rubbish over the years*


 ](*,)


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## dannykaye (11 Feb 2010)

don't know if DC has joined in, or indeed changed his mind but he used to recommend the Sun Child saw from Craftsmans Choice, around £30 a set of 2 cherries chisels and an eclipse coping saw, less than £100ish - sounds like a good deal to me


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## dannykaye (11 Feb 2010)

> But there is a line, does the Vertias wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70.
> .



and both are lot less fun than the ones I made myself out of the scrap box...


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## jimi43 (11 Feb 2010)

I like the idea of making tools. I think there is a huge amount of satisfaction when you are using something you made yourself to create something else.

It was the saw making thread that got me interested in the geometry and construction of a good saw for frets and other delicate work. The type of kerfing...the TPI...the angle of sharpening...all that stuff to me is fun!

All that being said...I think if someone gave me a fine set of chisels or a nice new saw I would grab it with open arms...I love the smell of new tools...

The other night I got a small...I guess it was a fret saw (in the guitar sense)...possibly a "Gentlemen's Saw"...anyway about 15 tpi and 5" steel with boxwood handle....which I decided to fettle..there being nothing to lose! Just a needle file...a small hammer...an anvil and one evening watching "Road Wars" with the dog...resulted in a fine saw that cuts beautifully...I am off to try dovetails with it tomorrow....

Jim


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## Chems (11 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":600aehxv said:


> > does the Veritas wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70.
> 
> 
> Do either of them do any better than the old pattern? I don't think so - and I have used a selection over the years.



Yes, the vertias and lie nielsen slice the grain, the draper just tears it. That was an easy one. I shan't be checking back now as it seems a bit trollish.


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## trousers (11 Feb 2010)

> Yes, the vertias and lie nielsen slice the grain, the draper just tears it. That was an easy one. I shan't be checking back now as it seems a bit trollish.



Chems
Just explain to me and the forum why you added the last sentance to your post?
You stated your opinion on the marking guages, so what is the rest about :?:


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## mr grimsdale (11 Feb 2010)

One reason I chip in on these threads is just a reaction against the sheer boredom of hearing for the hundreth time "buy LV, LN, Kell, titemark, torsharp, workmek, Dozitwat, yah mahverlous wonderful and similar total pea's". 
You are having your plonkers pulled by tool sellers and that's all there is to it! Big yawn, change the record?
Whats pissing me off even more though is that the excellent little Footprint DT saw I spotted on ebay has gone! Could be the last one ever and the end of civilisation as we know it, but I've got too many already (other makes).

Local shop has Jamesons cheaper than Bells so it's not all bad news!

PS


> Yes, the vertias and lie nielsen slice the grain, the draper just tears it. .


You just aren't doing it right. It's not that difficult you really should try harder. Give it ten minutes and you will get the hang of it I'm sure.


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## Kalimna (11 Feb 2010)

For what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoy using some nice tools (having communicated by email with the bloke(s) who make them - I like the personal touch) for the sheer reason that they are nice tools. In much the same way I enjoy a glass of fine wine or whisky when it's drunk from a crystal glass more than I would do with a plastic beaker. It doesnt change the taste, but it 'feels' better. And the feeling better is a very subjective thing, in all walks of life.
I also am fascinated with the idea of making tools oneself (hence my posts on making handsaws and planes), and am extremely proud of the purpleheart/hornbeam/yew plane I made, with all it's faults. If I had the space/experience in metallurgy/time/equipment, I would love to make some chisels too, but that is out for the timebeing.
To re-use a piece of equipment (certainly in this day and age) that has already had a life in someone elses hands (quite literally in the case of handtools) also has a romantic, and financial, ideal. The fact is that in fettling these older tools into a condition where they work beautifully, one learns essential skills along the way.
I love my highend toolery, but I can also see the reasoning behind tools at the lower end of the spectrum that need a little work put into them to start with. But I can see no reason whatsoever for denigrating either viewpoint.

Rant over!

And BTW, I also have the Veritas micro-adjustable wheel gauge, and prefer it simply because it fits my hand better than a traditional design. Couldn't quite see the justification for the Tite-Mark one tho... Now, where was that link to Clenton Tools.........

Take care,
Adam


----------



## wizer (12 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":1xnxrgzv said:


> Big yawn, change the record?



Take your own advice Jacob. No one's listening.... How's the £70 saw you just bought off Matthew?


----------



## Tony Spear (12 Feb 2010)

All this don't arf make Oi larf!

It doesn't just happen in woodwork either you know.

Cameras: I've got what was a pretty pricy high end Digital when I bought it and it's still pretty adequate for my needs, but when I go anywhere that there are lots of photography enthusiasts I can see the sneers from those with top of the range DSLR's. On the other hand I've got something like 12 or 15 film cameras from half frame to quarter plate that I accumulated before digital came along. My first SLR was a Pentax Spotmatic which still works pefectly well, but when they brought out their last top end camera the LX, I had some money kicking about, so I bought one. I suppose the optics might be a little better than the Spotmatic but quite frankly I can't see the difference between the two at 12 x 16 and the LX certainly doesn't make me a better photographer but I love it just the same.

Fishing: I'm still using a couple of old fibreglass fly rods and sometimes even my Grandfather's old split cane which has to be at least 50 years old. The modern carbon rods (of which I've got 2 or 3) can be quite amazing to use, but even now people will shell out more for hand made split case than carbon 'cos it feels nice. I just use whatever I feel like using at the time. Whatever rod you use, it won't make you a better fisherman.

Cars: I've got what appears to be a 1960 Series 2 Land Rover, until you look underneath, where you find coil springs Range Rover axles and disc brakes and a 3.5 litre V8. It's stll bloody cold in the winter, the screen is almost impossible to de-ice on short runs in the cold' its still got the original unassisted steering so I haven't got the balls to drive it over 80mph :shock: and it costs a bleedin' fortune to run, but I like it, particularly when I'm tootling along the local lanes and I get one of the local heroes in a hot hatch or white van man up my buttocks! 

Back to tools: my marking knives are bits of old hacksaw blades with RH and LH bevels ground on the ends and grips consisting of insulating tape wrapped around the blades and they seem to have worked pretty well for the last 40 years!

So: as long as it does the job to your satisfaction and you enjoy it, use whatever you like!

Cor! I feel a lot better after all that!  

P.S. Grim: Jameson's? I prefer Crested Ten when I can get it!


----------



## Tony Spear (12 Feb 2010)

And another thing, I can't even drive the bloody Land Rover at the moment 'cos I've got a DVT and a Pulmonary Embolism on top of my COPD, hence the fact that I can't get to Ye Olde bash! :evil:


----------



## mr grimsdale (12 Feb 2010)

wizer":uzfre78j said:


> mr grimsdale":uzfre78j said:
> 
> 
> > Big yawn, change the record?
> ...


You seem to be following every word!


> .. How's the £70 saw you just bought off Matthew?


I bought it as a yard stick to compare with what I've got as I'm doing a lot of hand dovetails lately. 
Nice saw - highly polished back but not as sharp as I hoped. 
I'd rather have had it the other way round but that's because I'm a bit of a beginner with saw sharpening, and if I want polish I can do it myself. But it came with a good quality needle file so now it cuts just as well as my old Spear & Jackson DT saw.
A DT saw needs to cut well on the backstroke so you can define the line precisely without the saw skipping. The new one didn't. It does now.


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Feb 2010)

> A DT saw needs to cut well on the backstroke so you can define the line precisely without the saw skipping.



What?

Explain please.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## mr grimsdale (12 Feb 2010)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> > A DT saw needs to cut well on the backstroke so you can define the line precisely without the saw skipping.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How I do it on the end grain of a board is to put the saw on the far edge and draw it back, and lower to horizontal, to make a neat starter kerf alongside the line. Isn't that how everybody does it?
More difficult to start a cut forwards as until the kerf is started the saw can skip sideways, and similarly difficult to start backwards if it isn't sharp.
Does that make sense?
Ditto across the grain come to think - though the backwards starter kerf would just be through the far arris and not necessarily right across.


----------



## lurker (12 Feb 2010)

Wizer

Please stop slagging Jacob off because you don't agree with him. People who don't share your views are not automatically trolls.
I think he talks a lot of sense (until he starts on about bluddy chisel sharpening :roll and deserves as much (if not more) respect as I would expect you to be given

AND you have me wrong matey - I'm the biggest tackle tart going.
eg six good back saws including the quite brilliant Vertitas ones + a Gramercey kit order in progress.

I must admit I don't see the point of new chisels as there are so many good marples out there & they are a doddle to fix (Tom I bet I have close to 50 chisels :roll: ) but if you want them fine - I understand. 
Just don't insist their "quality " is essential

The point still remains whatever you buy you need the expertise to use & maintain it

Tony Spear - I think I could like you :lol: 
My hobbies are woodwork, fly fishing, just returned to photography (spent £500 last week - see wizer! ) & my series 2 ( I don't like your idea of bastardising them though)


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (12 Feb 2010)

> How I do it on the end grain of a board is to put the saw on the far edge and draw it back, and lower to horizontal, to make a neat starter kerf alongside the line. Isn't that how everybody does it?
> More difficult to start a cut forwards as until the kerf is started the saw can skip sideways, and similarly difficult to start backwards if it isn't sharp.
> Does that make sense?



OK Jacob, I'm with you.

That is not how I do it. I did used to so I undersand the issues involved. I will say bluntly that there is a better technique than that, and that the difference will astound you. 

This is what you do (exaggerated) ..







It is the method favoured among teachers such as Rob Cosman. Look at any of his videos and you will see that he starts the kerf at the far end, then levels the saw across the endgrain. This is more difficult than it seems - when I used this method I inevitably wanted to draw the saw back (as you describe) just to get the kerf started. Personally, it is not a technique I would teach anyone, although RC has done so quite successfully. 

Here's the technical side to this situation - skip to the next paragraph if you wish. Most dovetail saws come with a high tooth rake angle which, along with the rip filing, makes the saw difficult to start. You can improve this by reducing the rake angle of the teeth, adding fleam, or both. The trouble is that this slows down the cutting action.

An alternative is to start the saw cut at the near side of the board. This will force you to saw uphill rather than downhill....






When you do this, you reduce the effective rake angle of the teeth. This makes the saw considerably easier to start. You no longer need to pull the saw back, but can start by pushing forward.

This method has two other advantages: firstly, you can see and saw to two adjacent lines, which increases sawing accuracy. Secondly, the act of pulling a saw back actually is more likely to cause the teeth to lose the kerf than create a kerf.

More details here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... ilSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## pedder (12 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":mpm3axdj said:


> [How I do it on the end grain of a board is to put the saw on the far edge and draw it back, and lower to horizontal, to make a neat starter kerf alongside the line. Isn't that how everybody does it?
> More difficult to start a cut forwards as until the kerf is started the saw can skip sideways, and similarly difficult to start backwards if it isn't sharp.
> Does that make sense?
> Ditto across the grain come to think - though the backwards starter kerf would just be through the far arris and not necessarily right across.


 
This is commonly known as a bad technique for rip cuts. A rip cut teeth isn't made to cut on the back stroke. Better to lower the rake on the first two inches. 

A crosscut teeth is a different animal it has an edge on the back of the teeth. 

Cheers Pedder


----------



## mr grimsdale (12 Feb 2010)

pedder":1ce7r61r said:


> ... A rip cut teeth isn't made to cut on the back stroke...


They do though, but not very well. That's the whole idea - to gently and accurately pick/scratch out the first bit of kerf (just 1mm deep or less) against the line before doing a fiercer forwards stroke when safely in the kerf.


----------



## pedder (12 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":1o2hktn6 said:


> pedder":1o2hktn6 said:
> 
> 
> > ... A rip cut teeth isn't made to cut on the back stroke...
> ...



The problem with this "technique" is that the saw tends to jump out of the kerf. But surely you can train to avoid this. In my opinion it is easier to learn Rob Cosmans technique (what he teaches not what he shows in his vdeos). Saw forward on the whole kerf with extrem little power.

Cheers


----------



## Benchwayze (12 Feb 2010)

LarryS":15p5617u said:


> just looked in ebay for rob cosman dvd - £27 :shock: add to that costs of saws, markers etc then it has to be cheaper to buy a leigh jig




:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Shocking innit? 
The price of these handtools. 

And you don't get a lot of noise for your money either. 


John


----------



## mr grimsdale (12 Feb 2010)

pedder":cid1tpu6 said:


> mr grimsdale":cid1tpu6 said:
> 
> 
> > pedder":cid1tpu6 said:
> ...


The whole point of this technique is that it _doesn't_ jump out of the kerf - there isn't one to start with anyway, and drawing the saw back is much less jumpy and more controllable than pushing it forwards.


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## wizer (12 Feb 2010)

can you post some pics of the process please Jacob


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## jimi43 (12 Feb 2010)

> Tony Spear - I think I could like you



That's funny...I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing....especially about the Series 2 Rover....a TRUE 4x4! Not sure about the Pentax though! :wink:  

ANYWAY...back tto the regular programming...this is highly educational!

Jim


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## studders (12 Feb 2010)

lurker":909v7vr2 said:


> Please stop slagging Jacob off .................. he talks a lot of sense *(until he starts on about bluddy chisel sharpening :roll*



Amen to that. :lol:


----------



## Tony Spear (13 Feb 2010)

studders":rd70qwvw said:


> lurker":rd70qwvw said:
> 
> 
> > Please stop slagging Jacob off .................. he talks a lot of sense *(until he starts on about bluddy chisel sharpening :roll*
> ...



Amen to wot?

Talks a lot of sense or bluddy chisel sharpening?


----------



## alex8_en (13 Feb 2010)

i'm in process of practise cutting dt and the only thing i could add is get yourself a good lamp i've found that its much easier to split the line if you can see it :wink:


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## promhandicam (13 Feb 2010)

When I made my gramercy dovetail saw it came with a booklet which included tips on how to use the saw. it is available to download here They suggest to start the cut putting the toe flat on the piece of timber to be cut and using no downward pressure push straight forward. This might not work with the veritas or other coarser saws but with a bit of practice it work fine with the 19tpi gramercy. I think that the problem generally with handsaws - particularly using sharp saws - is that people tend to try too hard and not let the saw do the work.

Steve


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## promhandicam (13 Feb 2010)

alex8_en":3pd4oe3r said:


> i'm in process of practise cutting dt and the only thing i could add is get yourself a good lamp i've found that its much easier to split the line if you can see it :wink:



I agree that having a good light is helpful but when you say that it makes it easier to 'split the line' I think that your technique is wrong as you should be cutting just on the waste side of the line and not on it.

Steve


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## promhandicam (13 Feb 2010)

wizer":ekg0okpw said:


> I just find it utterly boring that he yarns on about it like . . . .


 someone constantly slagging off rutlands / dakota ? :wink: 

Steve


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## wizer (13 Feb 2010)

i think you could have thought of a better one than that Steve. How about "..like someone who yarns on about his health..." ? :wink:


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## alex8_en (13 Feb 2010)

hi steve i first tried to cut on waste side but i ended up with well formed cuts but too tight so i had to pare them with chisel so now i'm trying to split the line - any other tips? maybe try to mark with pencil instead with knife?


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## mr grimsdale (13 Feb 2010)

alex8_en":1hkeg9z5 said:


> hi steve i first tried to cut on waste side but i ended up with well formed cuts but too tight so i had to pare them with chisel so now i'm trying to split the line - any other tips? maybe try to mark with pencil instead with knife?


Once you've got a sensible procedure, pencil, knife, whatever, it's all down to practice - and looking closely at exactly what you are doing and why it's going right or wrong. The more you do the better you get.


----------



## promhandicam (14 Feb 2010)

alex8_en":dxgnxggk said:


> hi steve i first tried to cut on waste side but i ended up with well formed cuts but too tight so i had to pare them with chisel so now i'm trying to split the line - any other tips? maybe try to mark with pencil instead with knife?



At the end of the day if you are happy with them what does it matter which side of the line you are cutting? The important thing is the end result - how you get there is really up to you.


----------



## studders (14 Feb 2010)

Tony Spear":2jfun24v said:


> studders":2jfun24v said:
> 
> 
> > lurker":2jfun24v said:
> ...



Sharpening Ol' Boy. Talks sense much of the time otherwise. :lol:


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## Benchwayze (14 Feb 2010)

When I cut lap-dovetails, (or half-blind, if you wish) to get the kerf completely down to the shoulder-line, and right up to the lap, I use the front end of a very old tenon saw with a steel back.

I place it in the kerf (Which is a diagonal, half-depth kerf, remember'), and I give it whack with a 1/2 lb hammer. That sees to the bit of the kerf that the dovetail saw couldn't reach. The chiselling is much easier after that. 

Right folks, I have donned my tin-hat, so fire away! 

John


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## mr grimsdale (14 Feb 2010)

studders":2v9jbo69 said:


> Tony Spear":2v9jbo69 said:
> 
> 
> > studders":2v9jbo69 said:
> ...


My chisels and planes are very sharp though, even if my method is ridiculous and a bit too speedy for the plodding, painstaking, jig fiddlers!


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 Feb 2010)

Jacob, ignore the thread sidetrackers (who have little to contribute, so they start with one another over petty matters). Get back on track ..

Have you tried the different sawing method?

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Benchwayze (14 Feb 2010)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Jacob, ignore the thread sidetrackers (who have little to contribute, so they start with one another over petty matters). Get back on track ..
> 
> Have you tried the different sawing method?
> 
> ...



I find it works well with my 'Wenzloff' Derek. 
Now, have you tried mine? (Dovetail 'sawing' method, that is!) Make sure it's an old saw though! 
 

John


----------



## mr grimsdale (14 Feb 2010)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Jacob, ignore the thread sidetrackers (who have little to contribute, so they start with one another over petty matters). Get back on track ..
> 
> Have you tried the different sawing method?
> 
> ...


I'll have a closer look later Derek but I think I've tried all methods at one time or another. What I'm on about is just getting the kerf started with a neat clean edge against the line- after that you can saw away freely, dropping down the line on the face just like you are doing, only with the saw staying within the kerf from the beginning.


----------



## studders (14 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":3g6b0lr2 said:


> My chisels and planes are very sharp though, even if my method is ridiculous and a bit too speedy for the plodding, painstaking, jig fiddlers!



I never said your method was ridiculous. You just don't seem to get it though Mr Grim, some people, me included, actually enjoy the sharpening process as much as the rest of _hobby woodworking_. So if that means being a 'plodding jig fiddler' then so be it.
So, when you stop taking the water out of my methods I'll stop taking the water out of yours. I think that's fair.


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":1m2quthm said:


> I'll have a closer look later Derek but I think I've tried all methods at one time or another. What I'm on about is just getting the kerf started with a neat clean edge against the line- after that you can saw away freely, dropping down the line on the face just like you are doing, only with the saw staying within the kerf from the beginning.



Jake, I will wage a friendly bet that you will find the _sawing-uphill _method I outlined will start a kerf more easily and cleanly than the _backing-up-a-saw _method.



> Now, have you tried mine? Make sure it's an old saw though!



What was that again, John? Use a sledge hammer ..  
You can't scare me ... :lol: 

Actually I have done that, and sometime do do that. Many years ago I saw Tage Frid do that on a video (he used a piece of bandsaw). I made a special knife (looks like a chisel) out of a steel trowel just for that purpose. Really. 

If you do do this (on half-blind dovetails, of course), make sure that you add a clamp (OK, cramp) to prevent the side blowing out.

Here's the knife ..







Here's it being used ...






Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Benchwayze (14 Feb 2010)

Oh I don't 'it it all that hard! . Just enough to do the job... 

But it does make the chiselling out easier.

All this talk of dovetailing and tools makes me want to try something I have been thinking on for years.. Cutting 'proud' dovetails. (Arts 'n Crafts style.) 

Maybe when I can actually get into the shop again, I will try a small box! 



John


----------



## mr grimsdale (14 Feb 2010)

studders":1vfd7ydz said:


> mr grimsdale":1vfd7ydz said:
> 
> 
> > My chisels and planes are very sharp though, even if my method is ridiculous and a bit too speedy for the plodding, painstaking, jig fiddlers!
> ...


Not bothered either way - feel free to carry on taking the water!
I don't think I raised the subject in this thread; several other people did, correct me if I'm wrong.

PS just checked - no I didn't mention or take he water out of anybodies chisel sharpening anywhere in this thread - until I came up (defensively) with "plodding jig fiddlers". Which I'm quite pleased with; says it in a nutshell! :lol: :lol:


----------



## studders (14 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":13mi7gmd said:


> I didn't mention or take he water out of anybodies chisel sharpening anywhere *in this thread*.......



Kinda confirms my point really.


----------



## Doug B (14 Feb 2010)

Going back to the original question,

Having seen a couple of lads from Rycotewood cutting dovetails yesterday, they were making a very good job with a couple of old Marples chisels, an ordinary looking dovetail saw & an old looking coping saw.

I think the most important thing is sharp tools & then practice.


----------



## Mr Ed (14 Feb 2010)

Doug B":3szjo9gw said:


> I think the most important thing is sharp tools & then practice.



It is, but at the risk of repeating arguments already held in this thread, quality tools (new or old) can give quicker access to success in my opinion.

Ed


----------



## mr grimsdale (15 Feb 2010)

Doug B":vmp5akmu said:


> ....
> Having seen a couple of lads from Rycotewood cutting dovetails yesterday, they were making a very good job with a couple of old Marples chisels, an ordinary looking dovetail saw & an old looking coping saw.....


Oh mi gawd surely that's impossible! And in public too, setting a terrible example! I bet they had some proper tools hidden away somewhere!

Actually - the only remarkable thing about it is that it should be thought worth remarking upon.
Reading some of the comments in this thread, and looking at toolyism in general, a lot of people have been thoroughly brainwashed about tools and have become detached from reality.

PS


> ...
> I think the most important thing is sharp tools & then practice.


Spot on. Couldn't agree more!


----------



## promhandicam (15 Feb 2010)

Doug B":6jxb46qh said:


> Going back to the original question,
> 
> Having seen a couple of lads from Rycotewood cutting dovetails yesterday, they were making a very good job with a couple of old Marples chisels, an ordinary looking dovetail saw & an old looking coping saw.
> 
> I think the most important thing is sharp tools & then practice.



Doug,

That has to be one of the best posts I've seen for a long time, but you do know that people have been banned from this forum for making these sorts of observations / suggestions! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Steve


----------



## Sgian Dubh (15 Feb 2010)

Doug B":1y8noyvx said:


> Going back to the original question,
> 
> Having seen a couple of lads from Rycotewood cutting dovetails yesterday, they were making a very good job with a couple of old Marples chisels, an ordinary looking dovetail saw & an old looking coping saw.
> 
> I think the most important thing is sharp tools & then practice.



Doug, you got it in one. These dovetailing threads are always fascinating to watch. Dovetails aren't the easiest joints to get right first time, but they're also not an especially difficult joint to execute well. The most important characteristics are an ability to mark accurately followed sawing and chiselling accurately to those marks using sharp tools. The techniques involved require practice, quite a bit of it really, because there are several tasks, each of which have to be well executed, before a worker can achieve consistent accuracy and speed. 

The ability to mark accurately is important, and so is the ability to sharpen a variety of tools from planes to chisels to saws. Add to that the need to be able to use the tools accurately and it soon becomes obvious why some people struggle.

I don't use particularly fancy tools to do the job; the fanciest is probably my Independence brand dovetail saw with a rip tooth pattern, but I can use just about any saw with a back on it within reason, even a dull and poorly looked after thing with cross cut pattern teeth; it has to be admitted that a skanky saw does make life frustrating and harder, but not impossible. 

The rest of the kit I use is very ordinary including standard try squares and adjustable square ro mark mitres if required; cutting gauges, marking gauges, rules, (a bevel gauge or dovetail gauge too if I'm going to mark a specified rake) a bird's beak knife and a 0.5 mechanical pencil. Other bits of kit include Stanley brand chisels and a no-name coping saw along with a bench stone which happens to be a ceramic stone, saw files and a saw set. 

That's about it, unless I've forgotten something. Simple kit, and those bits of kit that need to be sharp are sharp. The rest of the job is down to accuracy of execution and that requires practice, lots of it until it all becomes second nature and you can almost do it your sleep. Slainte.


----------



## MikeG. (15 Feb 2010)

Sgian Dubh

Completely with you on every word you just wrote. Is there any controversy?

Mike


----------



## mr grimsdale (15 Feb 2010)

Sgian Dubh":vf7d5eyi said:


> .... and a 0.5 mechanical pencil. ....


You can buy extra hard leads . http://www.artifolk.co.uk/catalog/produ ... efills.htm
They don't break easily, even 0.5mm HB on unplaned wood.


----------



## Sgian Dubh (15 Feb 2010)

Mike Garnham":1ws164ew said:


> Sgian Dubh
> 
> Completely with you on every word you just wrote.
> 
> ...



Yes Mike, there always seems to be in these dovetailing threads, but I don't believe any of those controversies are of my making. 

When I see threads like this I mostly just sit back and watch them develop into whatever they become. It's often interesting, even if it's only for the anality (is that a word?) that sometimes emerges, ha, ha. Slainte.


----------



## MikeG. (15 Feb 2010)

Sgian Dubh":zg1hq11w said:


> only for the anality (is that a word?)



If it isn't, it should be!  

Mike


----------



## Benchwayze (15 Feb 2010)

There's an old song, from a B&W movie...
'To Each His Own'....

(Might even be they got the title from Shakespeare, but then I don't bother with Shakespeare all that much. Mostly drivel, on which much modern drivel is based!) 

(To Each His Own) But after posting such 'blasphemy' I still don my tin-hat!

John


----------



## mr grimsdale (15 Feb 2010)

Mike Garnham":2qnyi657 said:


> Sgian Dubh":2qnyi657 said:
> 
> 
> > only for the anality (is that a word?)
> ...


Hey we haven't got on to bevels yet! 
I'm of the 1/5 (approx) persuasion myself, but freehand, so somewhat random. I like to see pin ends as a confident triangle, not a mimsy trapezoid!


----------



## Benchwayze (15 Feb 2010)

Mimsy? Haven't heard that one before Jacob. 
I met loads a guys from Ooop North too. 

Does it mean kinda wimpy? 
Most of my early joints finished in the miskin. :wink: 


Cheers

John


----------



## woodbloke (15 Feb 2010)

Benchwayze":1ct1ayv8 said:


> I still don my tin-hat!
> 
> John


...and flack jacket John :wink: - Rob


----------



## Benchwayze (15 Feb 2010)

woodbloke":yroz8ltw said:


> Benchwayze":yroz8ltw said:
> 
> 
> > I still don my tin-hat!
> ...



I shall suffer the slings and arrows then! 
:wink:


----------



## JeremyM (17 Feb 2010)

Replying to Alex8-en, if your pins are consistent but too tight then you need to move the tail board away from the pin board a fraction when marking out. ie more light peaking through the back edge. If it doesnt matter what the final width of the pin board is plane a few shavings off the inside face of the pin board. You will find this much easier than adjusting pin width with a chisel, but this will only work if all pins are oversize.

Jeremy


----------



## bugbear (17 Feb 2010)

Doug B":3g1mdx4h said:


> Going back to the original question,
> 
> Having seen a couple of lads from Rycotewood cutting dovetails yesterday, they were making a very good job with a couple of old Marples chisels, an ordinary looking dovetail saw & an old looking coping saw.
> 
> I think the most important thing is sharp tools & then practice.



Take a look at Kirby's dovetail book. Classic "technical college" tools throughout. 

Mind you, he's also written an entire book on sharpening, so his (modern Marples, IIRC) chisels are better tuned than most mortals'.

BugBear


----------



## mr grimsdale (17 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":rvhjqt1f said:


> .....
> 
> 
> > does the Veritas wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70.
> ...


Oops I hope I haven't induced anybody to lash out loads of dosh (£5.93) on a Draper marking gauge, Marples are cheaper at Tilgear!
As I keep saying; excellent and surprisingly cheap tools are still being made in Sheffield.
Hardly worth looking on ebay at those prices. However I just bought this nice cutting gauge for £2.50, partly because I like the old wood screws. No brand but it must be superior quality as it says "Superior Quality" on the transfer.


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## Benchwayze (17 Feb 2010)

There are some nice Marples chisel sets at 'OldTools'. But they are almost as pricey as LN's and in a few years will be catching up on Blue Spruce...

I think someone had better get in quick...


John


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## bugbear (17 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":25ikplrx said:


> Hardly worth looking on ebay at those prices. However I just bought this nice cutting gauge for £2.50, partly because I like the old wood screws.



Yes - there's something deeply satisfying and enjoyable about handling those finely made boxwood threads. Lovely things.

BugBear


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## Richard T (17 Feb 2010)

Has any one seen the dvd "Dovetail a Drawer with Frank Klausz"? I found a low quality fragment of it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-o4jryTkUc but this does nothing to convey the sheer mastery of this guy. 
He doesn't use a fret saw at all - he knocks all the waste out with chisels. He doesn't even use a square (fer 9*$%'s sake) he does that by eye.
I guess using chisles exclusivly limits the pattern - his are very uniform pins and tails, but good grief, I wish I could do it like that. 
He takes you through every process involved in making a drawer slowly, and then at his speed (s'nuff t' make yer sick.) 
I hugely reccomend seeing this dvd - it's the most amazing how-to I've ever seen; good planing and jig advice too. 
(gushing sales pitch over)


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## Benchwayze (18 Feb 2010)

Hi Richard, 

If you can still view VHS Video, I have one of 'Dovetail a Drawer' which you are welcome to. 


Postage and a pint is all I ask. 

John


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## Richard T (18 Feb 2010)

Thanks John but I have a copy already - I just don't have the skill, or the scary Hungarian father ...


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## Benchwayze (18 Feb 2010)

Richard T":1u96vw40 said:


> Thanks John but I just don't have the skill.



Yes you do Richard.  

'Whether you think you *can *or whether you think you *can't*, you will be right.'

Henry Ford.
:wink: 

Regards and keep practicing.

John


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## Richard T (18 Feb 2010)

Thanks for the encouragement John, truth is I haven't tried it yet. I've got as far as unearthing an old (English) dovetail saw and overhauling it. 
I've sharpened it to full rip angles. I've had it appart, cleaned it, oiled it and put it back together. Unforunately the back is just too pitted to read the maker's name - but the blade is unscathed by rust. 
I also have one deeply cut away chisel (Ward). And as soon as this [email protected] ankle heals and it stops snowing for five minutes I will have a go. 
But to start with at least, I _will_ be using a square.


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## mr grimsdale (18 Feb 2010)

Richard T":i4sng10m said:


> Thanks for the encouragement John, truth is I haven't tried it yet. I've got as far as unearthing an old (English) dovetail saw and overhauling it.
> I've sharpened it to full rip angles. I've had it appart, cleaned it, oiled it and put it back together. ...


I've done the same recently - and I've also discovered how to re-tension the blade resulting in instant improvement in blade straightness on an old Tyzack 12" tenon and an old S&J 8" DT, as follows:

The blade in a trad backsaw is a dry fit in the folded brass back. To tighten it you hold the end 2" of the blade in a wood faced vice and give the back immediately above, a sharp tap or two with a hammer. Don't over do it. You can do it at both ends. 
You are effectively tucking the blade further into the back, at the ends, so pulling it tighter along the edge. A bit like pulling a sheet straight on a bed.
Only takes a few seconds for a dramatic improvement in a wavy blade.

I guess you can't do this with the various new 'innovative' saws - yet another good reason for not buying one!


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## Benchwayze (18 Feb 2010)

Well Richard you made a good start. 

I am reorganising my workshop at the moment. It's in a sorry state.

You can't live too far from me, so as soon as I have a presentable space, you are welcome to come over, and I'll see what I can unearth in the way of unused and 'no longer required' tools. 

I can't promise to be able to teach you much, but any knowledge I do have to pass on will be gladly imparted. 

All the best

John


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## bugbear (18 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale":1h421pxk said:


> Richard T":1h421pxk said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the encouragement John, truth is I haven't tried it yet. I've got as far as unearthing an old (English) dovetail saw and overhauling it.
> ...



Presumably the blade is only wavy because it's come out of it proper position in the back, and your hammering is putting it back.

This is not (BTW) what is normally termed tensioning a saw, which is a craft jargon phrase with a specific meaning.

BugBear


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## Richard T (18 Feb 2010)

mr grimsdale wrote: _The blade in a trad backsaw is a dry fit in the folded brass back. To tighten it you hold the end 2" of the blade in a wood faced vice and give the back immediately above, a sharp tap or two with a hammer. Don't over do it. You can do it at both ends. 
You are effectively tucking the blade further into the back, at the ends, so pulling it tighter along the edge. A bit like pulling a sheet straight on a bed. 
Only takes a few seconds for a dramatic improvement in a wavy blade. 
_

What an excellent tip for those of us (esp.me) who go footling about at car boot sales trying to find that rare, old, straight saw. I might think twice about letting a slightly wavey one go now. 

John, I'm in Olton - not too far from Brum. I'd love to see your set-up but I can do no more than hobble for the forseeable.


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