# So what is a practical and liveable wage



## SpinDoctor (11 Apr 2014)

Just wondering what your take was on that. For those that haven't read my intro post I'm moving to the UK in 2 weeks... I've had a couple nibbles on jobs from CVs I've sent out and they're pay rates are fairly vague but they give a range of £8 - £13. Having done all of my working in Canada and Australia I don't have much of a reference point for the UK's cost of living. Even between Canada and Australia the differnence in cost of living is astronomical, I needed to earn 50% more just to stay afloat in Aus. I've seen jobs where they say they pay a competitive rate of £7.50 with all the overtime you want... Is it actually possible to live on 7.50/hour?

So outside of London what is a wage that would allow for basic standard of living. I.e. renting a modest flat, no car loan, no kids, and a wife in tow.

I had a bight from a shop in London also. I would expect wages would need to be much higher but what would one need to live and work there. Would probably be living in a modest flat or sharing...


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## Spindle (11 Apr 2014)

Hi

Only you can answer that question, we all have our own ideas of what is an acceptable rate of pay. It will depend to a great deal on where you chose to live, the regional variations are quite large with London being completely out of kilter with the rest of the UK.

Are you able to begin by renting temporary accommodation to allow you time to test the waters? if so that's what I'd suggest, then you can look at regional house prices and other outlays and decide on what you need to earn to support your lifestyle in each region.

Regards Mick


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## Jacob (11 Apr 2014)

Cost of housing (and work space) is the big issue here.
e.g. no-one on a low wage can live in London area unless they have a huge amount of cash to start with, or be prepared to hassle the hostilities of benefits and welfare. A low London wage would be anything less than say £50k pa. Crudely that's £25 per hour but it's not that simple.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/i ... egions.stm

I'd seriously consider the north or Scotland. Both places with a lot to offer. NI too but don't know it myself. Must go there sometime.

£7.50 per hour is not possible, except for a single person living in a tent perhaps. The minimum wage in UK is £6.50 per hour and is seen as much too low. Low wage families are dependent on benefits of various sorts - which you may not get at all if you are an immigrant.


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## JustBen (11 Apr 2014)

Jacob":f08bcc7x said:


> Cost of housing (and work space) is the big issue here.
> e.g. no-one on a low wage can live in London area unless they have a huge amount of cash to start with, or be prepared to hassle the hostilities of benefits and welfare. A low London wage would be anything less than say £50k pa. Crudely that's £25 per hour but it's not that simple.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/i ... egions.stm
> ...



Rubbish!
£7.50ph is easily liveable outside of London and will get you a bit more than a tent........ Unless the person insists on having the latest of everything, designer clothes, gadgets, brand new car, drinking/eating out very often etc.


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## Mike.S (11 Apr 2014)

FWIW, here's my family's experience. My 21 year old son has just moved out to rented accommodation - in a very ordinary part of West London suburbia. He's paying - 50/50 with a flat mate - £1,300pm for a nice 2 bed flat i.e. £650pm plus bills (gas, electricity etc). He commutes, by train, to Chiswick (West London) which adds to his bills. His salary is £28k. Spent some time looking at flats nearer to work (more desirable/expensive location) but couldn't afford it.

It may help to use the BBC website - which publishes a 'where can I afford to live' calculator here.

A cousin (aged 30, works in Local college education) who works in Hammersmith (West London) and earns a bit less has just moved into a family home (West London) as a lodger (one bedroom and shares use of family kitchen/bathroom) and pays £380pm.

There are 'grey' areas (think not entirely legal) where it can be a bit cheaper e.g. my local hairdresser has just converted two block built storage areas at the rear of his shop to living accommodation - and houses eastern european families in them! Areas around LB Hounslow (West London) are replete with 'garden sheds' that house (largely Asian) families illegally. My father's neighbour has just had an enforcement notice (take it down) served for a house side extension which miraculously tuned into a self-contained flat, intended for renters.

So, what I'm saying - relative to London - is there's plenty about if you know where to look but none of it is 'cheap'. If you anticipate a 'modest' London income (think £20k min) you can just about survive, say as a lodger. Regret I don't know the situation elsewhere - but exploration of the BBC site - link above - may assist.

Good luck.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2014)

Ben is welcome to come to Cornwall and earn sunshine wages, but he'll have a job to buy a £99,950 one bedroomed flat on £7.50 an hour.


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## JustBen (11 Apr 2014)

First off, the OP is not looking to BUY a property. He will be new to the country and wouldn't get looked at for a mortgage for quite some time. He is looking to rent.

I myself am not far off that figure and until recently(landlady sold), I was living in a 4 bed detached house in a small village. I have 2 cars, 2 kids, a workshop full of tools and I don't struggle.

Yes, there are certain parts of the country where is may be a little tougher but it's still achievable.

Live within your means.


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## Spindle (11 Apr 2014)

Hi

I guess, in fairness then, that you are putting in quite a few hours a week.

Regards Mick


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## DannyEssex (11 Apr 2014)

Just to add to the discussion

I live in south essex and the prices aren't as high as London, but its an commute, 40 mins by train and roughly the same by car on a good day. You can get a roughish 1 bed flat for £450 pm or house share for £80ish a week 

And yes you can live on on £7.50 per hour, you just cant food shop at M&S :lol:


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## JustBen (11 Apr 2014)

Spindle":35hpqyqn said:


> Hi
> 
> I guess, in fairness then, that you are putting in quite a few hours a week.
> 
> Regards Mick



Nope. I'm on a 45h salary with a few hours a months overtime.
I avoid overtime as much as I can.


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## monkeybiter (11 Apr 2014)

FWIW My son's main job is part-time £8.00/hr, he is in the process of buying a three bedroom mid terrace in decent nick for £55K. If we lived anywhere else it robably wouldn't be affordable. There's an upside to living in an ex pit-village.


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## SpinDoctor (12 Apr 2014)

Great information folks. Very much appreciate it.

Just to clarify, I am British but haven't lived in the UK in decades. Dad had wonder lust and took us to Canada when I was very young. I seemed to inherit his wonder lust and ended up in Australia but now the parents are gone so it's time to come home and be close to family - but not too close. It's always been home to me even though I was too young to be influenced. Every time I traveled to the UK, land in Manchester and jump on the train to Sheffield it always felt like I was coming home - did it so many times I've lost count. When I brought my wife for the first time she couldn't believe it. It was like I had this whole other life that she had no idea of. All the people I knew and how familiar it all was. I'd just slot back in with the family and carry on like I hadn't been away. I'm looking forward to in being a oneway trip this time.


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## RogerS (12 Apr 2014)

JustBen":lg7kney1 said:


> First off, the OP is not looking to BUY a property. He will be new to the country and wouldn't get looked at for a mortgage for quite some time. He is looking to rent.
> 
> I myself am not far off that figure and until recently(landlady sold), I was living in a 4 bed detached house in a small village. I have 2 cars, 2 kids, a workshop full of tools and I don't struggle.
> 
> ...



Good post, JB.


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## MIGNAL (12 Apr 2014)

JustBen":31dx4ze5 said:


> First off, the OP is not looking to BUY a property. He will be new to the country and wouldn't get looked at for a mortgage for quite some time. He is looking to rent.
> 
> I myself am not far off that figure and until recently(landlady sold), I was living in a 4 bed detached house in a small village. I have 2 cars, 2 kids, a workshop full of tools and I don't struggle.
> 
> ...



You run two cars and two kids, pay rent all on not much above £7.50 per hour. No benefits?


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## gregmcateer (12 Apr 2014)

Everyone will have different views of what's enough / not - as posted earlier. Some of us may be surprised about how much or how little others earn and spend.
This thread therefore, could slide into a to and fro debate about the fairness of min wage, benefits, living standards, pro- and anti- London, the Banks, probably UKIP, Blair, Thatcher, etc, etc. Could we leave that to another thread for RogerS and Jacob to battle it out :lol: 

What I think the OP wants is a feeler gauge of realistic cost of living, before he makes the leap. Seems the BBC site is a good start and from what you are saying, SpinDoctor, you are likely to be in or around Sheffield. Perhaps one of your old contacts / family can help out with accommodation short term? Certainly renting and purchasing outside London and the south east is GENERALLY lower, but so are the wages LIKELY to be. As an indication - we moved from Bromley in South London, where a three-bed terrace rents for about £1300 pcm to the West Midlands, where a broadly similar one will cost about £700+

Good luck and I hope the move goes well.

Greg


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## JustBen (12 Apr 2014)

MIGNAL":2qze5f30 said:


> JustBen":2qze5f30 said:
> 
> 
> > First off, the OP is not looking to BUY a property. He will be new to the country and wouldn't get looked at for a mortgage for quite some time. He is looking to rent.
> ...



I get no benefits(and wouldn't want any). She gets child tax or something credits but whatever it is, it makes no difference to the household as I pay for all bills.

Like I said, it is achievable.


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## MIGNAL (12 Apr 2014)

You can live on the streets for nothing. That's achievable as well. 
Bills are just one part of the equation though. 
What happens to the Child allowance? You give it away or do you give it back to the state? How much is your rent? 
Apologies for asking the questions. I'm baffled as to how two adults can pay the rent, run two cars, two kids on something close to £300 per week.


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## JustBen (12 Apr 2014)

It's not as difficult as you seem to believe it to be,

We are careful with money, we don't drink, we don't succumb to peer pressure and the need for the latest household/fashion item.
The cars are reliable, economical, cheap to run and insure.
The house is well insulated and efficient.
The children are 'cheap to run' and would much rather be out climbing trees/wrestling with each other than be sat glued to a tv/ipad/DS etc
The child allowances are saved.
We have almost no debts.

I also said i was not far off that figure, not at that figure.


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## MIGNAL (12 Apr 2014)

Thanks for giving all the detailed costings.
You seem to live a very interesting and fruitful life.


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## SpinDoctor (14 Apr 2014)

JustBen":z4ipybyh said:


> It's not as difficult as you seem to believe it to be,
> 
> We are careful with money, we don't drink



You lost me there.


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## MMUK (14 Apr 2014)

As a rough guide, before the collapse of my marriage, our household monthly outgoings averaged £1500 on a 3 bed semi. That included food etc., fibre optic broadband, two lots of car insurance and my van insurance (although I paid the van insurance in one lump up front). It doesn't include fuel or the 17 rescue rabbits' upkeep. Some months vet bills alone could be over £1000. My wife's salary was in the region of £28k + O/T and mine varied as I was contracting a lot - some months I could bring home £6k, others only £1k.

As it stands now, I'm living with my parents but I still have to find £650 each month to pay my Direct Debits before I can think about living.


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## MMUK (14 Apr 2014)

SpinDoctor":1arh2pb1 said:


> JustBen":1arh2pb1 said:
> 
> 
> > It's not as difficult as you seem to believe it to be,
> ...




I don't see what is so difficult to understand. I've met Ben, his better half and kids. I can see how he does it. He lives comfortably but doesn't go to the extremes. It's a shame more people aren't as frugal these days.


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## SpinDoctor (14 Apr 2014)

MMUK":33sl1fal said:


> SpinDoctor":33sl1fal said:
> 
> 
> > JustBen":33sl1fal said:
> ...




Sorry, it's the not drinking part. Not sure I'm ready for that.


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## Bod (14 Apr 2014)

JustBen":1v71ct09 said:


> It's not as difficult as you seem to believe it to be,
> 
> We are careful with money, we don't drink, we don't succumb to peer pressure and the need for the latest household/fashion item.
> The cars are reliable, economical, cheap to run and insure.
> ...




Thats the secret!

Bod


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## Benchwayze (15 Apr 2014)

Income £1.00 - Outgoings 99p. = happiness
Income £1.00 - Outgoings £1.01 = misery :wink:


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## Jacob (15 Apr 2014)

Benchwayze":10qmzppu said:


> Income £1.00 - Outgoings 99p. = happiness
> Income £1.00 - Outgoings £1.01 = misery :wink:


Income £1 and your are up sh|t creek however you look at it.


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## Benchwayze (15 Apr 2014)

Jacob":21qrvtbl said:


> Benchwayze":21qrvtbl said:
> 
> 
> > Income £1.00 - Outgoings 99p. = happiness
> ...



=D> 

I decimalised the quote from £.s.d Jacob. Are you not as well-read as I thought?


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## Jacob (15 Apr 2014)

You also devalued it. It was £19 19s 6d as compared to £20 0s 6d.
It'll be "A Tale of One point zero Cities" next. :roll:


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## monkeybiter (15 Apr 2014)




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## Benchwayze (15 Apr 2014)

Jacob":jyb74dud said:


> You also devalued it. It was £19 19s 6d as compared to £20 0s 6d.
> It'll be "A Tale of One point zero Cities" next. :roll:



Well Jacob, 2.5p didn't have quite the same pithy note to it. Besides which we don't use the 1/2 p anymore Do we? 
And man... you would argue black's white I reckon... :roll:


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## Benchwayze (15 Apr 2014)

I don't quite see the allusion... But if it amuses...

The fact is if you're living beyond your income you are in trouble. The only things you can do are seek a better job, or look at how you are spending your hard-earned. If you can't do either then vote for the other guy. (hammer) For what good it will do. (hammer)


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## monkeybiter (15 Apr 2014)

Benchwayze":33njcbfz said:


> The fact is if you're living beyond your income you are in trouble. The only things you can do are seek a better job, or look at how you are spending your hard-earned. If you can't do either then vote for the other guy. (hammer) For what good it will do. (hammer)



As it happens I'm in complete agreement; one of my oppo's at work is always in debt and complaining of having no money while turning up to work in new stretchy cycling gear. He earns the same as me which is a very good wage for the area, but his wife would rather spend all morning in bed and the afternoons watching Jezzer. As I've pointed out to him on several occasions if she got a part time job they would instantly go from having just enough to having some spare cash. But it's all a waste of time, he will be/feel skint all his life because he can't just accept that getting out of a [self dug] hole requires a bit of hardship along the way, but at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel. FWIW my better half works, we don't have debts, and as a result can now afford treats like extra holidays etc.

Re. Statler and Waldorf, once Jacob's spring is wound, a thread usually turns into an 'entertainment' of little relevance to the OP, and I am always put in mind of two grumpy old men arguing about nothing in particular. No real offence intended.


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## Benchwayze (15 Apr 2014)

NP Mike. I don't like to spar with anyone, or maliciously wind up springs! :? I just felt I was entitled to post a 'paraphrase' on an old quote, without being questioned on my Maths! :roll: After all it was pertinent to the thread! 
For anyone who is too young (you lucky beggars) to remember £.s.d, 19/6d (19 shillings and 6 pence), is sixpence short of a pound sterling. Equal to 97.5p 

Cheers 

John


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## MMUK (15 Apr 2014)

Benchwayze":1vc90nll said:


> And man... you would argue black's white I reckon... :roll:




He'd have a point on that one John, Michael Jackson is a prime example :lol:


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## MMUK (15 Apr 2014)

Benchwayze":1mnyx36c said:


> For anyone who is too young (you lucky beggars) to remember £.s.d, 19/6d (19 shillings and 6 pence), is sixpence short of a pound sterling. Equal to 97.5p
> 
> Cheers
> 
> John





I'm OK. I earn one guniea (21/-) and my outgoings are £1,0s,11d :wink:


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## Benchwayze (15 Apr 2014)

You do realise that the Guinea was once worth 25/- and it has fluctuated over the years.  Seems to have been stuck at 21/- for a couple of centuries or so.



 

Although I have just about gotten used to Decimalised Munnie!


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## MMUK (15 Apr 2014)

Benchwayze":blgqy5zd said:


> You do realise that the Guinea was once worth 25/- and it has fluctuated over the years.  Seems to have been stuck at 21/- for a couple of centuries or so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It has actually hit as much as 30/- in value several times during the 18th/c due to gold and silver prices going up. It was "fixed" at 21/- in, IIRC, 1816 :mrgreen:


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## Silas Gull (15 Apr 2014)

This is a fascinating thread.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Apr 2014)

Are you a dentist?


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## Benchwayze (16 Apr 2014)

MMUK":355pjioa said:


> Benchwayze":355pjioa said:
> 
> 
> > You do realise that the Guinea was once worth 25/- and it has fluctuated over the years.  Seems to have been stuck at 21/- for a couple of centuries or so.
> ...



Call me a liar for the sake of minus 2 years! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

I was going to google it, but I watched telly instead. :shock: 
Cheers Steve. 

John


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## rafezetter (18 Apr 2014)

monkeybiter":1rv2wlit said:


> FWIW My son's main job is part-time £8.00/hr, he is in the process of buying a three bedroom mid terrace in decent nick for £55K. If we lived anywhere else it robably wouldn't be affordable. There's an upside to living in an ex pit-village.




Christ - in bristol you can't even buy crappy static mobile home for that! I looked recently at places and the cheapest and I mean a run down PoS house in a rubbish (dangerously notorious) area was close to 100k.

I can live on £7 pr hour, 44hrs a week, but I'm not going out often, have a car or a significant other. Rent is £325 pm + bills so £400 pm give or take.


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## devonwoody (19 Apr 2014)

To Spin Doctor, I wish you the best and hope things come good for you both.

UK is a wonderful place to live and I hope you find and succeed at this venture.

My gran always said, "money does not make you happy"


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## Grahamshed (19 Apr 2014)

I wonder if woodworkers can truthfully say that money DOES grow on trees ?


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## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2014)

Money doesn't always make us happy, but it usually makes being miserable much more bearable.


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## Lons (19 Apr 2014)

monkeybiter":5c9fdaga said:


> As it happens I'm in complete agreement; one of my oppo's at work is always in debt and complaining of having no money while turning up to work in new stretchy cycling gear. He earns the same as me which is a very good wage for the area, but his wife would rather spend all morning in bed and the afternoons watching Jezzer. As I've pointed out to him on several occasions if she got a part time job they would instantly go from having just enough to having some spare cash. But it's all a waste of time, he will be/feel skint all his life because he can't just accept that getting out of a [self dug] hole requires a bit of hardship along the way, but at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel. FWIW my better half works, we don't have debts, and as a result can now afford treats like extra holidays etc.
> 
> Re. Statler and Waldorf, once Jacob's spring is wound, a thread usually turns into an 'entertainment' of little relevance to the OP, and I am always put in mind of two grumpy old men arguing about nothing in particular. No real offence intended.



+1 =D> 

I have a mate who lives hand to mouth. hasn't had a proper job for donkeys years, does casual work for cash so even though not claiming benefits he's not paying tax etc. His wife works part time and gets some sort of credits for the youngest of his 3 kids still under school age.
He's always moaning about lack of money to buy what he considers "essentials".
Strange how he manages to smoke heavily, go out regularly for meals or gets take-a-ways, has superfast infinity 2 broadband, a high spec PC and quick to get the latest gadgets.
He's a capable guy who talks a good line and he could easily have succeeded at his own little handyman business but clearly not willing to put in the effort or save the cash to start up. What a waste!



> And man... you would argue black's white I reckon...



:lol: :lol: What a surprise. He's playing his usual games and sitting in a corner smirking. :wink: 
Reminds me of the kids game of knocking on a door then run like hell and hide. Or my school mates party trick of "dropping one" in a supermarket and quietly scarpering leaving the other shoppers to look suspiciously at each other.


> The fact is if you're living beyond your income you are in trouble. The only things you can do are seek a better job, or look at how you are spending your hard-earned. If you can't do either then vote for the other guy. For what good it will do.



Spot on with that John!

Bob


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## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2014)

Our kid's game was to tie a long piece of thread to a door-knocker, and from a safe-distance, give the thread a few tugs. We'd hold the thread tight, so that when the door opened it would break the thread of course. That meant we could stand there in the street like the little angels we were, and have quiet snigger! Little things please ............ :twisted: 

Sometimes though, there would be quite a bit of thread hanging from the knocker, and that was when we had to scarper! :mrgreen:


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## Random Orbital Bob (19 Apr 2014)

Piece of dog cowpat wrapped in newspaper placed on concrete doorstep. Light newspaper, ring bell, run, house owner opens door, see's burning paper, stamp stamp stamp!

Kids....


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## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2014)

Trouble is Bob, you could do that one only once per household! Mind you.. I think once would be enough. :lol:


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Apr 2014)

My grandfather told me he used to (before ww1) lean an empty 45gall water butt against someone's front door, fill it up then knock on the door.
:lol: If he did it in the village I grew up in he'd have done it only once.
My cousin used to smear dog cowpat on Suffolk latches, then place a large rose thorn in it pointed towards the user. They then got a thorn in the thumb and stuck the thumb in their mouth...


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Apr 2014)

All this, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.


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## joethedrummer (23 Apr 2014)

Just a bit of advice, Mate,, stay in Oz,,given by someone who had part of his family emigrate about five years ago, and seen their lives "blossom" since they arrived in Melbourne.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Apr 2014)

Yup. My sis has been in NZ for 27yrs . How I wish I were there.


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## joethedrummer (23 Apr 2014)

phil.p":398bjz4l said:


> Yup. My sis has been in NZ for 27yrs . How I wish I were there.


To have that feeling , You must have visited a few times in 27 years . I was in Rotorua a few weeks back to see a buddy who went over in 1975,


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## SpinDoctor (6 May 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":23t3mapk said:


> Piece of dog cowpat wrapped in newspaper placed on concrete doorstep. Light newspaper, ring bell, run, house owner opens door, see's burning paper, stamp stamp stamp!
> 
> Kids....



My wife always says all conversations lead to poo. (Insert holding nose smilie here)


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## SpinDoctor (6 May 2014)

joethedrummer":o5dq49cu said:


> Just a bit of advice, Mate,, stay in Oz,,given by someone who had part of his family emigrate about five years ago, and seen their lives "blossom" since they arrived in Melbourne.



Been there got the t shirt and don't want to go back. Most common gripe immigrants have is, it's a great country too bad it's full of aussies. Lets just say the apple never fell far from the tree.


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## DennisCA (7 May 2014)

I make about €2k a month and my fiance does the same (well right now on benefits due to having had children, twins), we make do quite well I think, I can afford a rather expensive hobby and now I am also building a house and garage on a 2350m2 piece of land, but I don't care stuff like going on vacations and I don't like eating out, I like cooking, stuff like that means I spend very little money on restaurants and the like, and I contribute hardly anything to the "service economy". 

We're in rural Finland and costs of living and such are lower I gather which also helps, I could not live in Helsinki on that kind of money due to housing costs. Land where we bought it for our house was 4.30 euros / m2, pros of huge sparsely populated countries.


I dunno if anyone would be interesting seeing house building in Finland and what it entails vs building stuff in the UK (got no idea how you do things), I've kept a photo blog of it and written down stuff as it happened.


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## RogerS (7 May 2014)

DennisCA":2chc6avl said:


> ....
> I dunno if anyone would be interesting seeing house building in Finland and what it entails vs building stuff in the UK (got no idea how you do things), I've kept a photo blog of it and written down stuff as it happened.



I'd be very interested. I've been to Finland a fair few times on business and have a good friend in Helsinki.


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## bertikus_maximus (8 May 2014)

A bit out of touch since I now have a well paid job and mortgage but I lived on a postgraduate stipend 3 years ago in Cardiff. The stipend was approx £16,000 PA. My rented accommodation was about £440 pm at the time (I imagine this will be much higher now although I lived in Cathays, which is a truly terrible place to live imo).

I managed to get by on this and had enough money to able to travel to Northampton to see my long term partner or back to the Cotswolds to see my parents at the weekends.

However, I certainly wouldn't have been able to maintain a woodworking hobby on this 'salary'! It was the case of it just about went far enough, with a bit left over: it's probably worth pointing out that I don't smoke nor drink much, and didn't need to commute to work via car (I could walk). 

Hope this helps!


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## whiskywill (8 May 2014)

bertikus_maximus":jw7xnwi1 said:


> (I imagine this will be much higher now although I lived in Cathays, which is a truly terrible place to live imo).



Hey you! My grandmother came from Cathays. What has Gloucester got apart from deep puddles?:evil:


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## SpinDoctor (19 May 2014)

Thx all for the replies. Good news is I'm not going to be making £7/hour. Will start at around £12 and ease my way into the job and see where it goes.


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