# Was this a British-made Emmert?



## Scrit (8 Oct 2006)

I have turned up a rather unusual couple of pages in an old Wadkin & Co catalogue which shows what appears to be an Emmert-pattern vice sold by the company. The fact that no less than two pages are devoted to it as opposed to the 1/3 page given over to conventional vices may indicate it's importance as a product. As to dating these pages were published sometime between 1927 and 1935 (Wadkin incorporated as a Ltd company in 1935).












Would anyone be able to tell me if these were the American vices imported, were they made by Wadkin under licence or were Wadkin perhaps indulging in a bit of knock-off here? They were extremely expensive. Late last week I was shown an original bill dated 1939 for a Wadkin DR 36in bandsaw (top of the line, 3/4 tonne machine) - the price was £109/-/-, including delivery and installation. 

For comparison this is what Wadkin were offering in the same catalogue for joiners:






And here is the woodworker's vices page from the 1950 tooling catalogue (no Emmert's listed). The manufacturer appears to be Rededa both before and after WWII:






Anyone know anything about Rededa other than the fact that they painted their vices red?

Scrit


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## CONGER (9 Oct 2006)

Hi Scrit... my limited latin says that your motto should be "Semper In Excretio, Solum Profundum Variat" (Excretia -> Excretio).

Shades of Life of Brian here!

-gerard-


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## Jake (9 Oct 2006)

I saw one on ebay a couple of years back and have kicked myself ever since for not bidding - it went for £100ish.


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## dedee (9 Oct 2006)

Only thing I know about Rededa is that they painted their cramp heads red too. I've got a pair or two.

Andy


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## Ian Dalziel (13 Oct 2006)

Scrit...sorry i cant help with the wadkin vice and wondered if you were able to identify this one. I bought it a few years ago at a farmers market for very little. I was going to fit it to my new bench at the time but ended up doing a slightly differnt front vise.
The more planes i am making the more use i seem to have for a patternmakers vice and i think this weekends project will see me giving it a clean and a paint before fitting. It all seems to be there and everything works as it should.

On the vice itself the only identifiying marks are 2 numbers on the rear of the faceplates...which are 81 on the moving face and 79 on the fixed face. Just wondering if you are able to id the maker from the pictures.

Just seeing as you are a mine of info on good ole stuff.












cheers


I


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## Scrit (13 Oct 2006)

You know Ian, that could just be something like the Wadkin patternmaker's vice - catalogue illustrations were frequently of prototype machines or tools which were modified during production (sometimes radically - the Wadkin PK saw was changed quite a bit over it's lifespan with the electrical box at the front of the casting migrating around several times). J H Goddard, the chairman of Wadkin travelled extensively in North America during the 1920s both selling the Wadkin pattern miller to foundries and picking-up ideas to make or sell here in the UK. He concluded quite a few reciprocal manufacturing agreements which is why I had wondered whether or not he had obtained a licence or agreement of some kind for the Emmert vice or possibly arranged for the factory in Leicester to manufacture their own copy out of licence. All I know about their stuff in terms of colour is that they generally painted everything with a dark grey lead-based paint to give a smooth surface to the sand castings and that the paint can weather to anything from almost black to pale blue over time! If it's Prussian Blue it might even be a Woden or Record item. The numbers are typical of foundry origin numbers and you see them cast into all sorts of things - which does tend to make me think it was not cast as a one-off. Perhaps if we have an Emmert vice afficianado or expert on patternmaker's suppliers here he/she might be able to answer the question. Or is there someone with a pre-WWII Buck & Hickmann catalogue who'd care to take a look see at what they offerred?

Incidentally, Wadkin quote an 18 x 7in plate with 16in opening. How does yours compare?

Scrit


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## Ian Dalziel (13 Oct 2006)

Thanks Scrit.....just measured.......it is indeed 18" x 7" with a 16 opening.

there doesnt seem to be any paint colour left and ufortunately i dont have any available history on it as i got it from an auction.....

i'm surprsed you know what you have already mentioned


cheers

I


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## bugbear (13 Oct 2006)

The adjuster for the angle of the front jaw doesn't look like the wadkin OR an emmert!

http://www.mprime.com/emmert/models_and_types.htm

BugBear


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## Ian Dalziel (13 Oct 2006)

Cheers bugbear...actually it looks very similar to this one



mine has its cover missing but does look very similar.....possibly someone did a copy

cheers BB and scrit
edit...i had another look....there is also the no 14 cast into the swivel part on the back of the vice and some unreadable nos on the top of the front jaw....i'll do a picture later

http://www.mprime.com/emmert/Images/T2/Emmert-T2-cas01-800.jpg


I


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## Scrit (13 Oct 2006)

From Bugbear's post I'm beginning to wonder if you've got a genuine Emmert T.5 turtleback minus it's front domed cover (which would have located in the three holes on the ribbing). The type study says "82" on left side, nothing on right as well as the "14" cast into the hub

Scrit


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## bugbear (13 Oct 2006)

Scrit":1lvdfrlf said:


> From Bugbear's post I'm beginning to wonder if you've got a genuine Emmert T.5 turtleback minus it's front domed cover (which would have located in the three holes on the ribbing). The type study says "82" on left side, nothing on right as well as the "14" cast into the hub
> 
> Scrit



But Ian's main screw and handle are completely different.

BugBear


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## Scrit (13 Oct 2006)

bugbear":ecsk5nvg said:


> But Ian's main screw and handle are completely different.


Possible repair/replacement? The handle certainly looks a bit home-made to me, whilst the main castings having raised numbers on them more or less shout "volume casting" - either that or a knock-off copy casting (we've all seen patternmakers planes like that, haven't we) , but a copy casting would be smaller than an original wouldn't it? 

According to the Emmert type study there should be a number stamped into the top jaw:






Is that the case, Ian?

Scrit


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## Ian Dalziel (13 Oct 2006)

The handle does seem genuine enough....the numbers i thought were there.... werent..... it was scratch marks cleaning it doesnt reveal any nos except for the 14 or the rear swivel...i'll take a few more pictures tomorrow ........i looked at BB's link again and its identical to the T5....its actually got me surprised cause i nearly binned it.

even i'm a bit surprised...if it is a copy then they did a brilliant job of it

http://www.mprime.com/emmert/t5_photos.htm


thanks

I


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## Ian Dalziel (16 Oct 2006)

Had a busy weekend……stripped the vice down….sandblasted…primed and painted the important parts in a nice machine grey enamel. I had to re turn the acme rod and cast a new tee but straight forward enough. I also surface ground the little vice jaws. Rebuilt yesterday and greased the important parts and then fitted……or shoehorned it in….i should have done this years ago….what a fantastic vice.
It has all the markings etc on it to be an original T5 turtleback Emmert. 

Thanks for the original post Scrit….it wouldn’t have happened if I didn’t see your post.

BB the handle wasnt right...youve got good eyes....but hopefully my efforts make it a bit more presentable.

works just as it should now and i'm delighted and knackered.....now back to toolmaking

I


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## Paul Chapman (16 Oct 2006)

That looks fabulous, Ian =D> Don't know about you, but I find vices almost as interesting as planes. The good ones are really good and last almost for ever - and the great thing is you can fit 'em and forget 'em and they just go on working 8) 

Paul


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## bugbear (23 Oct 2006)

Ian Dalziel":2zgxt5ua said:


> Had a busy weekend……stripped the vice down….sandblasted…primed and painted the important parts in a nice machine grey enamel. I had to re turn the acme rod and cast a new tee but straight forward enough. I also surface ground the little vice jaws. Rebuilt yesterday and greased the important parts and then fitted……or shoehorned it in….i should have done this years ago….what a fantastic vice.



Good grief!! You really don't do things by halves, do you Ian?

BugBear (massively impressed)


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## Richka (25 Oct 2006)

Looks like an Oliver. They show-up occasionally on Ebay in the US. http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=3531


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## Scrit (25 Oct 2006)

Ah, that might explain it! Wadkin are supposed to have had a tie-up with Oliver in the USA from just after WWI whereby Oliver sold Wadkin pattern millers and some other patternmaker's machinery in the USA as part of their pattern shop range, altough I can find no indication of American machines other Vonneguts being imported by Wadkin. After Wadkin started to import Vonnegut moulders into the UK in the early 1930s that arrangement might well have gone out of the window depending on how Oliver viewed Vonnegut.

Scrit


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