# Track Saws. What point am I missing?



## Benchwayze (11 Apr 2012)

This is going to be so difficult to explain, but I'll do my best, so someone might be able to put me right.

From my surfing, looking at various track-saws, I get the message that if you lay the track-rail down, dead on the line, it's impossible to end up with inaccurate pieces; no need to take into account the thickness of the blade. I can't see this. The kerf must be factored in, surely? 

Suppose I want to cut two pieces of ply, two feet square, from a sheet, six feet by two feet:

My usual practice is to work from right to left. So I cut a two foot length, from a six foot length, leaving a four foot length to my left. (I.e, four feet, minus the kerf width) 

I would then cut another two foot length from that, leaving a piece of waste, under my guide. This 'waste' would be two feet by two feet/minus the kerf width. (I could probably use that for another job!) 

So, working as I usually do, if I put the track-rail down on the line, with the workpiece I want to the right, I am surely going to end up with a piece which is less than two feet long; by the thickness of the saw-blade. Is it just my visualisation, or do I have to work with the waste to the right? In other words, with the track-rail positioned on the piece I want, rather than on the waste?

It's driving me ape! 

I see the point of a track saw, but I think it is going to force me to work 'left-handed'. In other words I will have the piece I want to keep under the track rail, with the waste to my right. This is likely to lead me to an accident waiting to happen, or cutting errors galore. As I said, it's driving me nuts and I am wondering if I should just stick with an MDF guide, and offset my saw, by the distance from blade to base-edge. Using this method, the pieces that come off the saw are the pieces I want and are dead to size.

Or am I missing something? :? 

Thanks in Anticipation.


----------



## The Wood Butcher (11 Apr 2012)

The offcut goes to the outside of the track, in your example the end to the right, you keep the piece under the track. You do have to work "left handed" but you get used to it very quickly. For longer pieces I use my left hand to pull the trigger and my right hand to plunge and guide the saw. It's a little cack-handed at first, but safe because the saw is being guided by the track.

Just to muddy the waters a little further, with the saws that have an outside splinter guard like the festool, you can get a clean cut to the left of the blade as well but you do have to take the thickness of the kerf into account. However, that offset will always be an exact distance from the edge of the splinter guard on the track.

To muddy the waters still more, Festool offer a parallel guide extension for doing thin rips that cuts to the left of the saw but is calibrated to account for the thickness of the kerf.

How's the chopsaw working out for you?


----------



## Benchwayze (11 Apr 2012)

Thanks for that WB. Yes, as I thought. I am going to have to get used to working the other way! :mrgreen: 

I think I am going for the Makita, from D&M. They are offering two guide-rails, with the saw, for a good price, and looking at Alan Holtham's video, it's just about what I will need.

The chop-saw is working a treat thanks. Still haven't yet made a dedicated stand for it, but so far I haven't really needed to. I dismantled my lathe, and mounted the saw on that bench. With outrigger supports, no probs. I just wish I could get a sheet of Plywood under it! :lol: :lol: 

Now that I know my thinking was right, I can come to terms with it, and a track-saw will be on order. The next target after that; a Domino! :mrgreen: 

Thanks again and all the best.


----------



## Henning (11 Apr 2012)

If i may muddy the waters even more for you, if you are going to buy the Domino i think you will regret not buying into the system when you buy the saw. In essence, the two can share power leads and if you decide to further buy into the system at a later date, say with an extractor, you can get hoses with the lead incorporated, which would then leave you to only switch out the tool. A shame to not have the Festool tracksaw then... 
OTOH, if you definitely know you're not going to splash out on even more tools, all the above is moot points, but i started with the Domino and now have a rather sizeable collection of Festool, primarily due to the system which make most of it work togheter.


----------



## Steve Maskery (11 Apr 2012)

John
If you have a collection of BW magazines, go back a year or two, I forget exactly when, and look for my setting gauge. It allows you to set the rail so that the offcut is exactly what you want, rather than the piece that is under the track. It's useful when ripping stock that is too narrow to support the track, such as door rails and stiles.
It complements the one I featured on my first DVD which automatically sets the track so that the piece underneath it is the right size. No measuring involved.
Cheers
Steve
PS Don't forget you will need DX for it to work cleanly, especially if other machines start to Dom-inate your workshop!


----------



## Benchwayze (11 Apr 2012)

Thank you Steve. 
If you give me a day or so, to make a final decision, I'll be in touch for a copy of the DVD. In the course of my wondering about this point, I was trying to come up with a solution that might let me work 'right-handed' as it were. But if you've cracked the problem already, then it's pointless reinventing your wheel! 

My shop isn't really dominated by any particular make of tools mind. I have nothing against Festool and of course, if I want to have a Domino, then there isn't any choice! I do see what you are getting at though Henning, and were I twenty years younger... Well it might be a different story. Now though, with the track saw and the Domino, I should have all I need for the machine side of my work. I tend to go, not for one make for everything, but for the best tools within my budget, by whomever. So, as long as the Makita does its job, and I think it will, then that will be good enough for me. (I believe the saws fit the Festool rails BTW.) 

I am at the stage now where I use machines only to take the grunt out of woodworking, and finish by hand. Also most of the stuff I am likely to use sheet materials for, will be finished with inside two or three years. So, the track saw might not see much use after that. 

Will I sell tools on? Not me. That will be up to my Son! If he wants his Inheritance he will have to! Don't worry folks. Being a realist, I have told him to register with UKW, when the time comes around. :lol: :lol:


----------



## The Wood Butcher (11 Apr 2012)

John

I'd also have a look at the new Bosch GKT 55 GCE. It's the Mafell MT55 in a blue paintjob for a lot less cash. The track system that comes with it looks really good as well and solves some of the niggles that you get with the Festool/Makita track. Festool and Makita track is identical, in fact I think the saw is a copy of one of the older Festo saws.


----------



## wcndave (11 Apr 2012)

what niggles do you have with festool/makita, as i am in the market for a good plunge saw, and was thinking festool due to cleaness of cut, and generally the quality... however watching the Bosch video, it looks good too...


----------



## Benchwayze (11 Apr 2012)

No niggles with Festool, apart from their prices. But you gets what... etc. In fact the Festool track-saw was the first one I looked at. At Axy, it's available for a good price. 
No niggles with Bosch. Their Pro range of tools is excellent. (A fine Jigsaw esp.) A great offer on their track-saw at D&H atm 
No niggles with Makita really. It seems from the video to be as good as the others, and is the least expensive. 

But whatever, I must have the 'won't-power', not to buy until next month, when the next top-up of my tool fund is due.


----------



## 27neth (11 Apr 2012)

The Wood Butcher":2v39sbe9 said:


> John
> 
> I'd also have a look at the new Bosch GKT 55 GCE. It's the Mafell MT55 in a blue paintjob for a lot less cash. The track system that comes with it looks really good as well and solves some of the niggles that you get with the Festool/Makita track. Festool and Makita track is identical, in fact I think the saw is a copy of one of the older Festo saws.



I have the Mafell saw, what i have read is the Bosch is the same saw but a stripped down version. I would still choose the Bosch over the Festool.... 

John....


----------



## MickCheese (11 Apr 2012)

I have the Makita version, I am very pleased with it.

Used it a while ago to cut some dados using multiple cuts, the results were very good.

Mick


----------



## Karl (11 Apr 2012)

Hi John

I have the Makita which I bought 18months ago. I did a review of it here.

18 months on and i'm still happy with it, and it's done a lot of work in that time.

HTH.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## Dominion (11 Apr 2012)

Another Makita owner here and very happy with it too. 

Had a go with a brand new TS55R today and there is very little to choose between the two. The Festool has a better depth stop set up but the Makita has a more powerful and smoother sounding motor and an anti tilt device when cutting bevels. Quality of cut and dust extraction were identical.

Main difference is the Makita is £330 with two rails, bag and connectors, equivalent Festool will be £570.


----------



## chippy1970 (11 Apr 2012)

The Makita saws look ok 2 guys I work with have just bought them with extractors. I have the TS55 had it since 2007 and cannot fault it , one of the great things with Festool is resale value I could probably sell mine for almost what I paid for it five years ago. I just sold off all my classic systainer cases to change over to new T loc ones. I got more than what they cost me new, dont ask me why people want to pay that much I dont really care thats up to them


----------



## Dominion (11 Apr 2012)

It's incredible what old systainers go for, I'm planning on swapping mine for T-Locs and it looks like I'll end up in profit, madness!


----------



## Benchwayze (11 Apr 2012)

Read your review Karl. Thanks!
I saw that someone had kickback, because of no riving knife. 
Would this be avoided if one cut hardwood in more than one pass. Kickback occurs when ripping right through, but isn't usually an issue when making cuts such as dado cuts. Maybe two or three lighter passes, so the last cut has very little meat to remove? 

I'm not a technology expert mind. Just a thought?


----------



## chippy1970 (11 Apr 2012)

Dominion":3tkj037x said:


> It's incredible what old systainers go for, I'm planning on swapping mine for T-Locs and it looks like I'll end up in profit, madness!



Bit of advice if you do, sell them separately , some guy just sold a huge stack at once on ebay and didn't get anywhere near what I got for mine.


----------



## Belfast Bespoke (11 Apr 2012)

Benchwayze":2q2bdww5 said:


> Read your review Karl. Thanks!
> I saw that someone had kickback, because of no riving knife.
> Would this be avoided if one cut hardwood in more than one pass. Kickback occurs when ripping right through, but isn't usually an issue when making cuts such as dado cuts. Maybe two or three lighter passes, so the last cut has very little meat to remove?
> 
> I'm not a technology expert mind. Just a thought?



Hi John,
Have you looked at the Dewalt DWS 520K ?
Great wee saw, good deals to be had.
Has a spring loaded riving knife and a built in anti kick back device,
But more importantly, it runs on a central locator, so can cut both sides of the track, unlike most of the other one sided saws :wink:


----------



## Shultzy (12 Apr 2012)

Benchwayze, back to your original question. All the circular saws I ever seen have the wider part of the sole plate to the left of the blade. This is why waste smaller than the width of the sole plate should be to the right of the cut, as the maximum width of the sole plate provides maximum support on the wood you are cutting.


----------



## Benchwayze (13 Apr 2012)

Well, you're right Shultzy, of course. 

But it's cagg-handed to me. If I use a table saw I use the fence to the right of the blade to dimension. This leaves the waste on the left. That feels natural to me. And although a circular saw is upside down to a table-saw, it works out the same, turning the work over towards me. On my old Triton, there was a circular saw,used upside down. That was back to front for me (Which is why I never used it as a table-saw, and only as an overhead cross cutter). 

On the other hand, if I flip the work over horizontally, with a circular-saw, it would be as you describe. But as said, I feel cagg-handed that way. I must be a closet 'ambidextralist'!  On the other hand, it could be the subliminal reason I never feel comfortable with a circular saw, unless it's a top of the range model, with a sharp blade. :mrgreen: :wink:

Edit..
Let's explain it this way, I don't measure how much waste I want to cut off a piece of timber, to get a work-piece of a certain dimension. I measure the size of the piece I want and cut away the waste. Sometimes the waste is bigger than the piece I want, and I prefer the largest area to be under the bulk of the sole plate.

Although I think Festool have solved the problem with their 'parallel guide rails. You can cut repeat sized pieces all day, right across the width of a sheet, just by moving the track. The piece that comes off, is the piece that is to be your work-piece. I'll find the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4VTxEGyU0Y


But maybe I'll just get Great Barr Sawmills to cut my sheets to my drawing. Cheaper that way... and I'll get my Domino all the quicker. 8)


----------



## cambournepete (13 Apr 2012)

Dominion":2qj5ci8u said:


> It's incredible what old systainers go for, I'm planning on swapping mine for T-Locs and it looks like I'll end up in profit, madness!


And bloody annoying for those of us who'd like some but aren't prepared to pay silly money. :evil: :roll:


----------



## Shultzy (13 Apr 2012)

Benchwayze, I understand what you mean. I have always used the CS cutting waste to the right, right from my first use of a CS. Paradoxically my TS fence, like yours, is on the right which I find strange. I think humans are very adaptable.


----------



## matthewwh (13 Apr 2012)

When I read the original post there was a lovely little oirish voice in my head saying - 'sure if ya joost torned the wood around too then it'll all be exctly the same as before only backwards.' 

I habitually tend to work with the waste to the right but there are always situations where you have to register off the other side of the saw. I have marked the offset in mm for left and right cuts on the top of the machine which saves making the calculation repeatedly and makes things less foul-uppable. It's remarkable how perplexing a bit of basic mental arithmetic can be when you are engrossed in the creative side of your brain.


----------



## Benchwayze (13 Apr 2012)

:-& 

I just went to order my track saw... Axy haven't got it in stock for another week. Here's hoping they don't rack up the price when the new stock arrives. 

[-o< 
I'll reveal all, when I finally get it. :wink:


----------



## chippy1970 (13 Apr 2012)

Have ordered? if not try ITS London or D & M tools they are both doing deals might even be better than Axi.


----------



## Dominion (13 Apr 2012)

Benchwayze":vybbvm97 said:


> :-&
> 
> I just went to order my track saw... Axy haven't got it in stock for another week. Here's hoping they don't rack up the price when the new stock arrives.
> 
> ...



If it's the TS55R they won't, Festool stuff is pretty much price fixed.


----------



## Aled Dafis (13 Apr 2012)

Dominion":lrsc8ci4 said:


> Benchwayze":lrsc8ci4 said:
> 
> 
> > :-&
> ...



Yup, TS55R "Temporarily out of stock, available for dispatch within 1week"

And yup, I'm bored!

Cheers
Aled


----------



## Paul Chapman (13 Apr 2012)

John, if you're going for the Festool it might be worth contacting Tom at Intelligent Workshop http://www.intelligentworkshop.co.uk/

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Benchwayze (13 Apr 2012)

Aled Dafis":2itoxdcq said:


> Dominion":2itoxdcq said:
> 
> 
> > Benchwayze":2itoxdcq said:
> ...



Why Aled?
:?


----------



## chippy1970 (14 Apr 2012)

Have I missed something ? I thought you were going for the Makita or did you change your mind ?


----------



## Benchwayze (14 Apr 2012)

I changed my mind chippy. 

I'm going down the Bright Green Road. 
I might as well spend it. Just leave enough for my disposal, and the nearest & dearest. None for the Taxman!


----------



## chippy1970 (14 Apr 2012)

You won't regret it


----------



## Benchwayze (14 Apr 2012)

And I think there's more resale value in some of the tools? 
The only thing I will regret is that it will take me longer to save up for replacements! :wink:


----------



## promhandicam (14 Apr 2012)

Benchwayze":3mvqudce said:


> And I think there's more resale value in some of the tools?



Having just sold my TS55 I can confirm that this is the case. After over 3 years of use, having originally bought the saw, 2 rails and a bag on ebay I sold for £70 more than I paid :lol:


----------



## Benchwayze (15 Apr 2012)

What will I do with all my other stuff though! Amazon marketplace maybe?


----------



## chippy1970 (15 Apr 2012)

promhandicam":m1oa52sz said:


> Benchwayze":m1oa52sz said:
> 
> 
> > And I think there's more resale value in some of the tools?
> ...




Did you buy a new ts55r from Warren ?


----------



## promhandicam (15 Apr 2012)

chippy1970":mzm5xthd said:


> Did you buy a new ts55r from Warren ?



Yes and I think it was his last 240v one in stock

Note to self - avoid going anywhere near Mayford at all costs for at least the next 6 months :lol:


----------



## chippy1970 (15 Apr 2012)

I've gotta pop in there this week and pick up a huge stack of T locs (empty ones) and one of those sys toolboxes.


----------



## promhandicam (15 Apr 2012)

It is a dangerous place to go especially if you don't have strong willpower! I did notice two large piles of systainers in the shop, each about 5 foot tall - they aren't all yours are they?


----------



## chippy1970 (15 Apr 2012)

Could be, I've been waiting for the tanos toolboxes in the festool colour, but I've ordered some 4's 3's 2's and 1's that he's been holding for me. Not all for me a couple of guys I work with saw the last lot of tlocs I bought from Slingers and wanted some too. I ordered from Warren this time though , keeping it local


----------



## wcndave (16 Apr 2012)

Just got my 55r from Shaws electrical in Croydon. He says they've been flying off shelves and some people bought them whilst I was just drooling over the festool section of the shop. Have to wait to get to Italy before I can play though


----------



## turnamere (19 Apr 2012)

I finally took the plunge and bought a TS55 about three weeks ago to assist with a few large projects that I had lined up. Since I wanted to handle the saw before handing over a considerable amount of my hard earned I visited Kernow Fixings in St Austell, they hadn't yet received their allocation of 'Rs' but had already pre sold all of them, since I wanted it now I settled for the outgoing model.

As long as you mark or visualise the waste side of the cut you should have no problems. If the cut is narrow I use additional stock under the track to maintain balance; once this is set (using the track clamps) I have managed multiple accurate repeat cuts by removing the cut piece and then sliding the stock under the track using the additional stock as a fence. The quality of the cut both sides of the blade is very impressive. I have become a green and black fanboy overnight.

I have had no problems with operating it left handed at all thus far.

I was going to invest in a second 1400mm track and connectors but found the 2700mm rail for £120 at Toolfest - I don't know if the offer is still on since I can't access the site at work but the service was great, received an e-mail with a 1 hour delivery window and the rail packaged in a wooden shipping crate.


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2012)

I am still waiting for Axy, but so far still out of stock. I could go D&M, but they don't do delivery free... And I can be as tight s a tight thing. :wink:


----------



## wcndave (19 Apr 2012)

Sounds like I was lucky to get one, and I can't even use it for the next 3 weeks!


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Apr 2012)

I am just hoping Festool won't be tempted to rush the manufacturing process just to get more off the shelves. :?


----------



## Dominion (20 Apr 2012)

Slingers in Preston are still showing them in stock with free next day delivery. Also have some package deals with Festool extractors.

Got to say though having used my Makita and a friends TS55R back to back yesterday I certainly don't regret my choice.


----------



## Benchwayze (21 Apr 2012)

Got it from Axy yesterday.

21 hours between ordering and delivery. Can't complain about that then. 

I thought the saw was a bit noisy, but research tells me that's normal and is to do with the gearing for the speed control. Surprisingly, I have space to use this in the shop for breaking down sheets up to three feet by 4 feet. 

Now I think I should get a shop-vac. :roll: My present ex domestic vacuum-cleaner is not going to cope! Here we go! The slope beckons. :shock:


----------



## RogerM (21 Apr 2012)

Benchwayze":1g7vs4b2 said:


> Now I think I should get a shop-vac. :roll: My present ex domestic vacuum-cleaner is not going to cope! Here we go! The slope beckons. :shock:



The LOML bought me *one of these* for my birthday and my only regret is that I didn't get one long ago. When I first used it I wondered whether it was working properly because it is so quiet, and the auto switching is just great with the TS55 and Domino.


----------



## Benchwayze (21 Apr 2012)

RogerM":36vue5qg said:


> Benchwayze":36vue5qg said:
> 
> 
> > Now I think I should get a shop-vac. :roll: My present ex domestic vacuum-cleaner is not going to cope! Here we go! The slope beckons. :shock:
> ...



Thanks Roger, 
One assumes the hoses are interchangeable.
I just had a coughing fit over the price of a Festool hose. Even the cheepie version! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## RogerM (21 Apr 2012)

Yep - the hose supplied with the Nilfisk fits the TS55 and Domino, as well as my Bosch SCMS. It's a lovely piece of kit. I opted for the more expensive Alto Attix 30 as I'll be working in MDF on a forthcoming kitchen build, and the filters are designed for the job, otherwise I might have spent a little less and got the cheaper Aero 25. However, I've learned the hard way to buy the right tool for the job rather than a cheap alternative which I end up ditching and replacing with what I should have bought in the first place, by which time it's gone up in price! DAMHIKT.


----------



## Benchwayze (21 Apr 2012)

RogerM":3od79awo said:


> Yep - the hose supplied with the Nilfisk fits the TS55 and Domino, as well as my Bosch SCMS. It's a lovely piece of kit. I opted for the more expensive Alto Attix 30 as I'll be working in MDF on a forthcoming kitchen build, and the filters are designed for the job, otherwise I might have spent a little less and got the cheaper Aero 25. However, I've learned the hard way to buy the right tool for the job rather than a cheap alternative which I end up ditching and replacing with what I should have bought in the first place, by which time it's gone up in price! DAMHIKT.



Many Thanks Roger.


----------



## chippy1970 (22 Apr 2012)

Festool are doing a deal at the moment with ts and vac together.


----------



## Benchwayze (22 Apr 2012)

chippy1970":lkn2h973 said:


> Festool are doing a deal at the moment with ts and vac together.


I thought the LN slope was slippery, but the Festool one is like the Cresta Run! [-o<


----------



## wcndave (22 Apr 2012)

Yes, once you have the vac you may as well get everything, that's why I haven't bought it... Btw, any good? ;-)


----------



## Benchwayze (22 Apr 2012)

wcndave":1iv2t8hg said:


> Yes, once you have the vac you may as well get everything, that's why I haven't bought it... Btw, any good? ;-)



If you mean the saw Dave, it cuts like a dream! And nowhere near so noisy overall as most circular saws. It has a funny 'growling' tone, but I am told that's normal, because of the speed control meshing. If they're all the same then I ain't not worried none!


----------



## wcndave (22 Apr 2012)

I was kind of joking that I haven't got the vac as it starts the slope, however was enquiring whether the vac was any good as I might get one!

I have the saw however not used yet as waiting for my things from storage to be delivered to Italy... Looking forward to it, was cutting panels today and was a real pain.


----------



## Benchwayze (22 Apr 2012)

Well, I suppose I joked a bit about the slope! 

I don't believe any one manufacturer has the final answer for 'every tool'. But I do like to have the best I can afford of tools that I want. So my tools span the spectrum for makers' names. (A Domino of course can only be a Festool, but whether or not I need one is up for debate!) 

I used a 'Wood Magazine' home-made MDF guide for a circular saw for long enough, and it was well and good. But the finished edges of the panels were only as good as the blade on my saw. Plus the fact that eventually the guides wear and lose their accuracy. (One reason I made the saw guide strip moveable. I just moved it back a few mm and cut a new reference edge. But in the end I went for a track saw proper.) 

We shall have to see how long before I need a new edge strip.


----------



## promhandicam (22 Apr 2012)

The edge strips last a quite a long time especially if you just use the one blade and always cut at 90 degrees. Even when they do get a bit ragged it isn't an undue problem unless you are trying to cut something like mft where you wan to avoid any chipping. When you do need to replace, buy the 5000mm splinter guard as it will do 3 1400 rails and is more cost effective in the longer term. For the extractors, I wouldn't be without mine - especially useful for site work as you can clip sustainers to the top. Also the hose connection is the best I've used - all my tools power tools (not just festool) connect to it without any issues. I'd contact Axminster and see if they will do you a deal on an extractor - as Chippy mentioned - as you've just bought the saw from them.


----------



## Benchwayze (22 Apr 2012)

promhandicam":3btqjd2p said:


> The edge strips last a quite a long time especially if you just use the one blade and always cut at 90 degrees. Even when they do get a bit ragged it isn't an undue problem unless you are trying to cut something like mft where you wan to avoid any chipping. When you do need to replace, buy the 5000mm splinter guard as it will do 3 1400 rails and is more cost effective in the longer term. For the extractors, I wouldn't be without mine - especially useful for site work as you can clip sustainers to the top. Also the hose connection is the best I've used - all my tools power tools (not just festool) connect to it without any issues. I'd contact Axminster and see if they will do you a deal on an extractor - as Chippy mentioned - as you've just bought the saw from them.



Thanks Prom. 
It sounds as though it will save me a fortune in Gaffa Tape, to get a good seal on the connectors then. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


----------



## chippy1970 (23 Apr 2012)

John Have you joined the Festool owners group yet ?


----------



## promhandicam (23 Apr 2012)

chippy1970":307p2yu3 said:


> John Have you joined the Festool owners group yet ?



I think John has left the building - see here


----------



## chippy1970 (23 Apr 2012)

whoops missed that one cheers Steve


----------

