# Cowboy "tradesmen" / horror pics



## Lons (11 Jan 2013)

My brother, a council house tennant is in the process of having his heating upgraded. The LA contract awarded to a private company (probably lowest bid) is for several estates and hundreds of houses at a cost of vast sums of taxpayers money.

This is some of the non compliant and downright dangerous work they've done and which he has demanded is put right.

Pics 1 and 2 are of a gas pipe (YES GAS) held down by a screw and further along springs way above floor height when board lifted. :shock: 

Rest are central heating pipes from a combi boiler outputting minimum 65deg. They are not only resting on electric cables for the ring circuit, cooker supply and shower feeds but are in places squashed hard against them in enclosed boxing where the ambient temperature will be even higher. HW pipe resting on a nail head. No pipe clips anywhere at all. Massive cutout of joist which will have weekened it and no metal cover plates on any of the gas or water pipes to avoid them being nailed.

Quite rightly and with my advice he has gone nuts with the clerk of works after the plumbler and electrician tried to bullsh*t him and specifically said there was nothing wrong with it..
Electrician speaks little English couldn't answer any of the questions posed to him and agreed when asked by the LA clerk of works agreed that it was not legal. When asked simple questions like what is the voltage drop of a say 20 amp cable at 70deg there were blank looks. 

How many installations are like this whether rental or owned properties? In my experience, a great many!

Bob


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## chippy1970 (11 Jan 2013)

Bob that's really bad . In all my years I don't think I've ever seen anything that bad. Annoys me more that my tax money is being spent on it :evil:

I would report them to gas safe


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## Cowboy _Builder (11 Jan 2013)

They aren't "Cowboys" they are proper tradesman ,you only have to ask them and they will tell you . :lol:
People like them give us real "Cowboy Builders "a bad name .. :wink:


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## Dusty (11 Jan 2013)

I would be just as worried by the notch size in the first picture , well over size . There is a whole section in the regs regarding the size and location of notches in joists , the same with hole size in relevant sized timbers . 

Not good really , let alone the risk of the pipe work "knocking " 

Cheers


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## Dusty (11 Jan 2013)

here is one for you http://www.barrowbc.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=399


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## RogerBoyle (11 Jan 2013)

Unfortunatly I have seen worse........ A lot worse 

28mm copper pipe 5 mm below the surface of 3 poured concrete floors (living room, dining room and kitchen) with no protection and carrying gas to the next door neighbour 

Top of a two story flight of stairs butted up flush with the joist and two screws put through the riser to stop it pulling away

8 windows fitted but no lintels fitted 

4 roofs fitted on a three story block of 4 (7 years ago)
Problem ::noticed by site agent prior to inspection was cracks on the interior and exterior blockwork/brickwork 
Cause :: the roof was spreading and pushing the walls out 

All trusses put in the wrong place, and the cross braces removed ,no bracings applied, purlin supported by a piece of 2*2, No birdsmouth cuts on the rafters instead they were cut to sit on top of the purlin and then another piece of timber nailed to the bottom of the purlin to carry on to the wall plate (so it was dog legged)
Dormer windows made from 50mm timbers no insulation used 9mm plaster board on top
The site got the company back to redo the roofs and they still did it wrong


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## dj. (11 Jan 2013)

chippy1970":2ytm2ca1 said:


> I would report them to gas safe




They would do nothing.

I tried to report a boiler fitted for my sister that made those photos look like quality work.
The boiler failed due to poor installation, the manufacturer subbed out it`s warranty work, the engineer who came out wouldn`t condemn the installation as " it wasn`t company policy to comment on other installers work" . Though he did admit the fault would more than likely re-occur as he couldn`t alter the installation only fix the fault.



Regards.


dj.


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## Lons (11 Jan 2013)

dj.":2y51y3v3 said:


> chippy1970":2y51y3v3 said:
> 
> 
> > I would report them to gas safe
> ...



He has both clerk of works along with the leccy coming back monday morning and intends to phone gas safe before they arrive. I hold little hope from them.
I've told him to lay it on the line to the LA guy as he represents the landlord and the other guys are subbies. The LA are legally responsible for the safety of gas and electricity in their properties. As the illegal work has been identified and documented, should any resultant leak or explosion occur they are culpable and their insurance public liability cover etc will refuse any claims.
If he doesn't get anywhere (and he is demanding an independant inspection once remedied) he's threatened to go to the local press as well as past on facebook and youtube. With hundreds of possibly affected tenants it would open a rather large can of worms.

As a taxpayer, I'm pi**ed off at the amount they spend on refurbishment anyway when my daughter, a hardworking nurse can't afford to change her ancient boiler.

Bob


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## Lons (11 Jan 2013)

Thanks for the replies from all. 

I confess that I've seen some horror stories as well when doing alterations and extensions.
I'd say it looks like a DIY job but that would be disrespectful of amateurs as mast would research and fit very carefully. After all most is just commonsense. e.g I would as non certified would have marked the gas pipe so it couldn't be confused with water pipes. Who but an silly person would install long runs unsupported. When asked if the gas pipe had been sleeved through the cavity wall the answer was "I don't know, we would have to check" :roll: 



Dusty":2r9168ye said:


> here is one for you http://www.barrowbc.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=399



Thanks for the link Dusty, I'll pass it on as all councils are interested in others policies.

Bob


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## stevenw1963 (11 Jan 2013)

shocking


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## Dusty (11 Jan 2013)

Glad to be of help Lons , I was in a bit of a rush when replying but the example I gave is only a brief explanation . I will photo copy the full article from a manual I have that explains it in more detail and pm you with it . I know there are times when you have to work around the problems but that is just aweful from the point of view that the timbers are / were calculated for the respective load , ie a bath full of water and some muppet goes and reduces the timber by a 1/3 , which does not weaken the timber by a 3rd but more due to accumulative strength . 

Also as you say the pipes are not clipped ( even if there was room ) and there is the risk of the pipes vibrating and " knocking" . And as personal view point , it is down right tight as a ducks buttocks to use micro bore for plumbing these days , very cheap and easy to use .

Kind regards Sam


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## Lons (12 Jan 2013)

> I will photo copy the full article from a manual I have that explains it in more detail and pm you with it .



much appreciated Dusty


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## George Sansom (12 Jan 2013)

I agree, totally shocking work, but I have come across many, many instances like it, particularly LA jobs.


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## dj. (12 Jan 2013)

Dusty":11htxaqc said:


> , it is down right tight as a ducks buttocks to use micro bore for plumbing these days , very cheap and easy to use .



But very sensible as the modern boilers & radiators are now designed to be low water content, so why supply them with high water content pipe-work, clearly that doesn`t make sense.

As for easier to use, I would suggest the plastic push-fit pipe-work is far easier to use to the point of de-skilling plumbing, when compared with copper pipe.
Having assessed the damage left when a plastic push fit fitting completely failed on a cold water main there is no way I would use these fittings in my own house. I`ve never come across a complete failure of a copper/brass fitting, by which I mean a fitting that has completely broken down in one instant, I have seen this on more than one occasion with these plastic fittings.



Regards.



dj.


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## Graham Orm (12 Jan 2013)

dj.":18khwmzv said:


> Dusty":18khwmzv said:
> 
> 
> > , it is down right tight as a ducks buttocks to use micro bore for plumbing these days , very cheap and easy to use .
> ...



My tuppenceworth. I've been fitting bathrooms and kitchens for 30 years, and heating systems in the olden days. I served my time as a plumber. The reason for bigger bore pipes is to allow sufficient flow to reach the manifold where several smaller pipes run off. By fitting smaller pipes from the boiler you will reduce flow and efficiency of the rads. (Flow not to be confused with pressure, two completely different things). 

Push fit fittings work perfectly if fitted correctly. They are an absolute godsend to me. I use them constantly reducing the amount of kit I have to carry and shortening plumbing time by a two thirds. I have NEVER had a problem with them. (Just cursed myself). They are also easy to separate should you wish to change something or make a temporary connection. 

Copper joints do fail and blow off when 'dry' soldered...over heated and all the solder runs out, sealing temporarily. Again...down to the installer.


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## George Sansom (12 Jan 2013)

Agreed, take a look at the warranty, Copper 20 years, Hep2O plastic 50 years albeit not against faulty workmanship.

I would not use plastic where it is seen though.


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## RogerBoyle (12 Jan 2013)

George Sansom":20rjla13 said:


> Agreed, take a look at the warranty, Copper 20 years, Hep2O plastic 50 years albeit not against faulty workmanship.
> 
> I would not use plastic where it is seen though.



What guarantee is offered on the fittings like the elbows and couplers???? I do know the pipe itself is guaranteed for 50 years but i was under the impression that the fittings were much less.


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## dj. (12 Jan 2013)

Grayorm":vrhx8bih said:


> The reason for bigger bore pipes is to allow sufficient flow to reach the manifold where several smaller pipes run off. By fitting smaller pipes from the boiler you will reduce flow and efficiency of the rads.



I wasn`t suggesting that the size of the circ`s should be reduced, the size of pipe from the boiler to the manifold{s} should be sized to suit the system. The idea behind micro bore is to have a mid point (the manifold) which distributes the water to the radiators equally thus eliminating the problems with traditional two pipe systems where the radiator on the longest run of pipe-work is the slowest to warm up.
By cutting down on the size of the pipe-work to the radiators (but not including the circ`s to the manifold) less water is needed to be heated so reducing the fuel required, making the system more efficient. 





Grayorm":vrhx8bih said:


> Copper joints do fail and blow off when 'dry' soldered...over heated and all the solder runs out,.



Copper fittings do fail, I completely agree, my reference was to a split second failure, not one due to incorrect installation or a break down of a fitting over time.
The water main I referred to had a push-fit fitting that had been installed correctly but the fitting had sheared off leaving the O ring, collar & metal retaining ring in place on the pipe. 



Regards.



dj.


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## No skills (12 Jan 2013)

Very supprised to hear of a plastic fitting failing like that, only problems I've encountered with them were installation errors (mostly pipes not being pushed fully home and the other is the odd o ring being twisted in the fitting). We use quite a lot of plastic fittings at work for new installs and the repairs of older units that are plumbed with copper, partly this is down to ease of use but also because of their toughness. Our site units often get bashed around by forklifts/diggers/lorrys (not to mention builders ) both on site and in our own yard - in short the plumbing gets hammered, the plastic fittings survive very well but the copper doesnt. I've certainly not got anything against copper but its not the be all and end all.

JME


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## George Sansom (12 Jan 2013)

RogerBoyle":f2je8js9 said:


> George Sansom":f2je8js9 said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed, take a look at the warranty, Copper 20 years, Hep2O plastic 50 years albeit not against faulty workmanship.
> ...



Both pipe and fittings are guaranteed 50 years.

Quote


Market-leading 50 year guarantee
Due to a rigorous quality control and testing programme, all Next Generation Hep2O pipe and fittings are guaranteed for 50 years against defects in materials and manufacturing.
The only proviso is that good professional installation practice is followed, as outlined in this guide. Notably, this includes working within the peak life cycle operating temperatures and pressures detailed in Table No.1 - see page 7.


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## dj. (13 Jan 2013)

Thanks for that George, it prompted me to look at the technical information on Speed-fit, the main type of plastic pipe-work I see in my locality.
They only give a 25 year warranty on their fittings & pipe-work, but more interestingly was their working pressures.

Quote

"Working temperatures and pressures:
Central heating:
Usual working temperature: 82°C.
Working temperature (maximum): 105°C.
Working pressure (maximum): 3 bar.
Speedfit fittings suitable for central heating systems can withstand maximum temperatures of 114°C, intermittently for short periods.

Cold water:
Usual working temperature: 20°C.
Working temperature (maximum): 20°C
Working pressure (maximum): 12 bar.

- Hot water:
Usual working temperature: 65°C.
Working temperature (maximum): 95°C.
Working pressure (maximum): 6 bar."


I was expecting to see higher working pressures if I`m honest.
Most combi boilers safety valves are set at 3 bar & in practice wont lift until system pressure is over 3 bar particularly on older boilers, which gives potential for fitting failure on an over pressurizing system.



Regards.


dj.


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## George Sansom (13 Jan 2013)

dj.":1rntdjla said:


> Thanks for that George, it prompted me to look at the technical information on Speed-fit, the main type of plastic pipe-work I see in my locality.
> They only give a 25 year warranty on their fittings & pipe-work, but more interestingly was their working pressures.
> 
> Quote
> ...



Hi dj

That's why I prefer Hep2O, 25 years longer guarantee and better workmanship IMO.


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## KevinOKane (31 Aug 2013)

This is ridiculous! I don’t think that an experienced water and gas plumber has done this. Even a neophyte in the business could easily tell that the job was haphazardly done and it could pose a lot of danger to the tenants. I am sure that with these kinds of photos, the contractor should do the refitting free of charge! Such work could pose a lot of danger and would even have inexplicable consequences.


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## Lons (31 Aug 2013)

KevinOKane":nzmkih1a said:


> This is ridiculous! I don’t think that an experienced water and gas plumber has done this. Even a neophyte in the business could easily tell that the job was haphazardly done and it could pose a lot of danger to the tenants. I am sure that with these kinds of photos, the contractor should do the refitting free of charge! Such work could pose a lot of danger and would even have inexplicable consequences.



Hi Kevin

The post is now 6 months old so well out of date now but I assure you that it's genuine and the works was definately carried out by experienced and registered gas fitters.
My brother lives in a local authority (council house) as a tennant and the works were part of a major program of improvements to hundreds of such houses. The problems are not uncommon and unfortunately often undiscovered as they are covered up by floorboards and carpets etc.
The reason for such poor and dangerous work, though totally unacceptable is that the authorities contract out the work to the lowest bidder and the companies who win the contracts will often cut corners because they have bid very low. Terrible practice as they are playing with peoples lives.

Where in NSW are you btw? I have a brother in Sydney and have been over a couple of times. Planning a visit again next summer probably.

cheers
Bob


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## Hivenhoe (31 Aug 2013)

What was the outcome?
This is all too common, local authority down here recently had major improvements done to their housing by outside contractors. Most of the materials and labour came from far outside the economic area, so little or no benefit to the greater local community: money taken out of the area! This included solar panels on roofs with no extre load bracing and kingspan type insulation to exterior walls covering all sorts of vents?


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## Lons (1 Sep 2013)

Hivenhoe":1nulmvbm said:


> What was the outcome??



A major row!

Heavy meetings at his house with clerk of works from council and company along with the "tradesmen" involved and my brother demanded an independant inspection which he got and it was a pretty damning report.

Result was a complete renewal of all pipes to the correct specs and a written appology. This was followed by a number of inspections on other houses completed and as far as I know quite a lot of remedial work needed. The workers involved were sacked and the council threatened to revoke the contract. All new installations after that were inspected independantly I believe. The worry of course is that there are probably unsuspecting tennants with no idea their houses are likely to be potentially dangerous. Very short sighted of the local authority!

Bob


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## flanajb (7 Sep 2013)

They can't be Cowboys they must be certified. I rest my case!


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## RogerS (8 Sep 2013)

Lons":2tj1h9a4 said:


> Hivenhoe":2tj1h9a4 said:
> 
> 
> > What was the outcome??
> ...



The LA person who awarded the contract should be sacked.


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## Hivenhoe (8 Sep 2013)

flanajb":29a62akw said:


> They can't be Cowboys *they must be certified*. I rest my case!


Need "certifying" more like!

LA least cost contract and approved contractors club, this is the standard they get.
This may have been awarded to one of its "approved contractors" and then sub'd out by the "AC"


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## flanajb (8 Sep 2013)

Hivenhoe":18ad3im5 said:


> flanajb":18ad3im5 said:
> 
> 
> > They can't be Cowboys *they must be certified*. I rest my case!
> ...


No doubt. But my point is more related to the fact that certification means pineapple all and just because someone has a piece of paper does not mean they are competent to do the job. Where as a competent person who could do the job and would do a good job because it is in their nature, is unable to do so because they don't hold the magic piece of paper. Apologies for the digression. 

Glad this did get sorted out though!


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## Lons (8 Sep 2013)

Actually, the gas fitter concerned was called to the meeting along with the electrician and when asked if they though this work was acceptable, both said yes - both were sacked.

As a matter of interest, the electrician was Eastern European who spoke excellent English, the gas fitter was Nigerian and hardly spoke a word :roll: 

Bob


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