# Making lathe tools from old firmer chisels?



## LuptonM (6 Aug 2011)

My dads got a small nu-tool lathe in the shed and sooner or later I am gunna have to learn to turn things for furniture ect

However, turning tools seem to be fairly expensive, like anything these days so I was thinking of buying some old marple firmer chisels from a carboot and grinding them into a skew chisel ect and then replace the handle for a more appropriate one. Sharpening skew chisels ect shouldn't prove too hard since I've mastered the 'Grimsdale' method of sharpening by accident . 

Anyway is making turning chisels from old chisels viable and how might one make more complicated chisels such as gouges?


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## gus3049 (6 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":vm8qybit said:


> My dads got a small nu-tool lathe in the shed and sooner or later I am gunna have to learn to turn things for furniture ect
> 
> However, turning tools seem to be fairly expensive, like anything these days so I was thinking of buying some old marple firmer chisels from a carboot and grinding them into a skew chisel ect and then replace the handle for a more appropriate one. Sharpening skew chisels ect shouldn't prove too hard since I've mastered the 'Grimsdale' method of sharpening by accident .
> 
> Anyway is making turning chisels from old chisels viable and how might one make more complicated chisels such as gouges?



As far as I'm aware its NO NO and NO. Turning chisels require a different design to take the sort of strains put on them by revolving wood, length and strength of tang being one of the more important. You need a long handle to provide leverage and control. Having said that, I do use modified tools for small, detailed work where the workpiece is already round and near the finished size, so you could do a few for that purpose.

For general use though, it has to be the real thing.


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## boysie39 (6 Aug 2011)

would agree with Gordon on that one, use proper turning tools to start,dont try to cut corners


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## Benchwayze (6 Aug 2011)

boysie39":3vj1fwfi said:


> would agree with Gordon on that one, use proper turning tools to start, dont try to cut corners



Cutting corners? On a lathe? There must be something wrong with my lathe if it cuts corners! :mrgreen: 

(This is where Boysie tells me it is possible to cut corners on a lathe!)  

Lup...

I don't know much about turning, but I know you ought to try and get the proper tools... So I agree. No, no,no... 

Regards
John


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## LuptonM (6 Aug 2011)

Hhhhmmmm not that convinced. How exactly will a wood turning skew chisel be different to a firmer chisel with a replacedlonger handle and its edge ground at an angle?

Also how does the strength of the tang matter since you'll be holding the blade anyway, so the force required to break it out of the handle will probably cause u to loose grip anyway?


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## NikNak (6 Aug 2011)

LuptonM...... read Benchwayze tag line at the bottom, very apt i thought....

"Free tools are like diseases. You usually get something unpleasant, that you didn't pay for"

Listen to what these guys are saying...... either that or let us know how many stitches you end up with when it goes wrong :shock: 

(this does sound like an accident just waiting to happen... sorry)


Nick


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## Mike Wingate (6 Aug 2011)

Another NO! And no making lathe tools out of old files either. Make scraping tool to fettle up your planes with them instead.


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## gus3049 (6 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":1o88gco8 said:


> Hhhhmmmm not that convinced. How exactly will a wood turning skew chisel be different to a firmer chisel with a replacedlonger handle and its edge ground at an angle?
> 
> Also how does the strength of the tang matter since you'll be holding the blade anyway, so the force required to break it out of the handle will probably cause u to loose grip anyway?



Wait til you 'feel the force'. It could be that if it rips it out of the handle, it'll stuff it straight through a part of your anatomy. People have died using the lathe and some on this forum have been injured even though they know what they are doing.

This is not a game. You need the right tools for the job. Don't be convinced if you wish but I don't want to see the photographs thank you very much. Can't stand the sight of blood.


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## CHJ (6 Aug 2011)

LuptonM":2aj7s2gt said:


> Hhhhmmmm not that convinced. How exactly will a wood turning skew chisel be different to a firmer chisel with a replacedlonger handle and its edge ground at an angle?
> 
> Also how does the strength of the tang matter since you'll be holding the blade anyway, so the force required to break it out of the handle will probably cause u to loose grip anyway?



Well you asked for advice, if you choose to ignore it then I hope you do not have time to reflect on the fact in casualty.
One good catch on a wood lathe can bend a 3/8" diameter HSS bar, a chisel tang stands no chance, if it does not snap it stands a good chance of removing a finger or two as it bends.

This is what can happen to a tanged tool if it catches, and this was made for turning but mis-used, possibly on a bowl blank.


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## Jonzjob (6 Aug 2011)

I will go along with everyone else! We want to talk to you, not about you.

If you don't take the advise you asked for then there is nothing we can do, but I, amongst everyone else, hope that you do!


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## gus3049 (6 Aug 2011)

Whilst we are at it, a read of some basic guidelines might be a good idea.

Try this one http://www.woodworking.co.uk/Technical/Beginners/beginners.html#SafetyAdvice

or this one from Chas https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post301390.html

You can never be too carful when starting out.


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## Benchwayze (6 Aug 2011)

All of which reminds me, there are a few 'modern' lathe tools that I don't have; that have surfaced since I last went near a lathe.
Like the oval section skew? :tool: 
The hook nose gouge? (Well that's what I think it's called.) :tool: 
I have some reading to do, and some video watching on YouTube! 

I don't like to see blood either. Well, not my own at any rate. [-o< 


John :wink:


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## AndyT (7 Aug 2011)

One of the nice things about turning is that you can do a lot of work without having very many tools at all. 
A roughing gouge, a smaller gouge, a skew and a parting tool will take you a long way, and you should look on those as part of the minimum cost of getting started.

(I don't mean to say that it's not nice to have lots of others, and a lot will depend on the sort of things you decide to make. Big heavy bowls will need tougher tools than little spinning tops and light pulls.) 

On the other hand, if you work green wood on a treadle lathe, the whole game changes and lighter weight tools can be perfectly ok.


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## mikec (7 Aug 2011)

I make a lot of my own tools, it gives me a lot of satisfaction but as a general case I would never consider using an old file or old chisel. 
Old files are usually too brittle and both files and old flat work chisels have tangs that are designed for forces that are mostly inline with the tool and generated by hand ie not by 1/2 or 1 horse power motors. 
Turning can exert great forces that are generally perpendicular to the tang. My home brews have tangs that are an extension of the same size as the tool seated well down into the handle. 
Please heed the warnings of the previous posters, it only takes one small lapse of attention to have serious consequences.

mikec


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## Benchwayze (7 Aug 2011)

You have a point Andy.

I was just aware there had been one or two advancements in turning tool design, over the last twenty years. (It's a good long time, but at my age it doesn't seem that long!) 

I don't know what benefits these 'new' tools have over the others. Some of my oldies though are a bit on the small side. A few of them came with a Stanley-Bridges lathe attachment for an electric drill. Now that does date me, yes? Thus I will probably need one or two larger basic tools. 

A quality, heavy roughing gouge I have, acquired from one of our friends at the WH. By itself, the best turning tool I own at present. 

As you rightly say Andy, there is so much that can be done with the few basic tools. 

If anyone doesn't believe me, I'll show you... Eventually :wink: 

Oooo Hark at me! :-" 

regards

John


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## Tazmaniandevil (8 Aug 2011)

as a beginner, working with a very tight (non-existent) budget I would say a huge NO!
I bought a really poor set of Marksman tools from evilbay, which is what I could afford at the time. In the 2/3 months since I bought them, all but 1 handle has had to be hot-glued on, and the roughing gouge snapped where the tang meets the handle after a dig-in.
Now I will admit that this was most likely down to my poor technique, but on closer inspection the tang was only about 2" long and no thicker than 1/4"
I am now replacing my tools one at a time with the best I can afford. I know I was exceptionally lucky that the gouge was pulled away from me, rather than flung toward me.
Do yourself a favout mate, don't become a statistic.


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## jumps (8 Aug 2011)

AndyT":315lxxg5 said:



> One of the nice things about turning is that you can do a lot of work without having very many tools at all.
> A roughing gouge, a smaller gouge, a skew and a parting tool will take you a long way, and you should look on those as part of the minimum cost of getting started.
> 
> (I don't mean to say that it's not nice to have lots of others, and a lot will depend on the sort of things you decide to make. Big heavy bowls will need tougher tools than little spinning tops and light pulls.)
> ...




Andy, 

I hope you don't mind but, in the nature of the potential audience and without wanting to get into a 'starter kit' ('cos there is an excellent sticky on this) I would just point out that a roughing gouge doesn't have anything like the strength of a bowl gouge when it comes down to the initial cuts on just about any blank.

So I have your list as bowl gouge, smaller (spindle) gouge, parting tool and skew ......


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## AndyT (8 Aug 2011)

jumps":1c88emk2 said:


> AndyT":1c88emk2 said:
> 
> 
> > One of the nice things about turning is that you can do a lot of work without having very many tools at all.
> ...



I don't mind at all - I'm only a very occasional turner. I was thinking of my own very robust roughing gouge - which is worlds away from anything made from some other old tool. I'm glad to say that I also have a very nice, strong bowl gouge - which is probably even tougher!


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## steadyeddie (8 Aug 2011)

If making you own tools was easy, Henry Taylor, Crown & Sorby etc would be out of business. Buy the proper tools and stay safe.

Dave


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## theblindwoodturner (10 Aug 2011)

I may be able to help here.

Though firmer chisels would not be suitable in their current state (short handles, etc. I have done this myself in working out some tool designs in the past.

Here's the trick. Some obvious, some not so.

First, let's consider the size of the handles. short handles will not help with firmer chisels for turning as the point of balance and weight distribution would not work. The best thing is to have someone make you some 15" handles to a normal turning tool profile with the ferrules. 

The blade itself. Though it's not suitable for roughing gouges, etc, you can create reasonable scraper type tools which can rough to a degree but don't expect the forces you can generate out of a normal spindle gouge in terms of rough cutting and deep cutting.

The trick is firstly to consider the grind and shape of the tool. the traditional grind of a firmer chisel is too aggressive and would not support the cut for a spinning piece. so a lesser grind is best. 30deg or les would do.

the shape can remain as a square edge, full round, dome, right or left hand or V scrape, though it is worth noting that a V scrape will need a lesser angle and also a relief angle at both sides of the "V" profile.

The issue here is grinding the profile and changing the temper of the steel. It's always best to take your time and not present force to the blade you wish to sharpen in the hope of removing more stock. what you effectively do is create a weak spot with the heat generated from the stone of a bench or angle grinder.

the solution is a small pot of oil as a dipping component, this creates two advantages. Stabilising the temper and also giving an easier grind. Don't ex[ect the grinder to perform large amounts of waste removal. just let it take it's time.

The finish of the blade is important. polishing the sides and underside help with the toolrest, so the use of a lapping plate and fine grade abrasives will help.

The top face can either be left in it's current state or with a bit of care and time, the use of a grinder to lightly impart a scoop channel along the blade as a chip clearance profile would benefit you. again the use of oil dipping to cool the surface is important, as is the use of the grinder to achieve the finish. Again, don't apply pressure to remove large quantities of stock from the steel as this WILL effect the stability of of the temper.

Aside from this, I can offer a more effective solution if you can gain access to a toolmaker or steels supplier.. You could try toolmaking from the old approach I follow where fresh solid steel (rockwell 55-65 or in those lines) either as flat stock (square / rectangular) or round solid steel can be ground and shaped. You can get away to a degree with heavier strokes for grinding. steels like HSS or HSS-M2, HCS (high carbon steel) and the likes of will be good starting points. HCS is easier to shape but requires more grinding and honing as time goes on, so it's not always the best option depending on the quality.

anyway, hope it can help a bit


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## CHJ (10 Aug 2011)

Lewis, I would certainly like to see some of these tools that you have made/developed, then perhaps some of us who did a 7 year apprenticeship in precision engineering and have spent our careers doing such minor things as rebuilding jet engines, certifying the welding quality of guys doing repairs to exotic materials used in them and operating heat treatment furnaces using inert gases, vacuum, salt baths and as much as one megawatt of power each could asses their safety in a turning environment.

Personally being in a position to be able to include the above in a CV along with spells in aeronautical design offices both mechanical and electronic I would never ever post on a public woodwork forum so called guidence encoraging someone who has no experience in the subject, and I say this with no disrespect to the opening poster, to attempt such tasks as modifying tooling manufactured for a totally different purpose and which the person will have no idea of the alloy and it's limitations.

And this is with regard for the safety of untrained individuals and the very strong desire not to have on my concience the fact that something I had posted had lead to someone crippling themselves or others taking what I said out of context or not understanding the deeper implications of what they are attempting.


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## gus3049 (11 Aug 2011)

I have to say that I am with Chas on this one quite apart from being suitable impressed with his CV.

The little I learned from my time at college learning about toolmaking and indeed, making my own specialist tools for musical instrument making, leads to me advise strongly that no-one should get involved with this sort of thing unless they know EXACTLY what they are doing.

A dangerous post there Lewis.


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## boysie39 (11 Aug 2011)

LuptonM
I just wondered if this post has been of any help to you, your last post suggested you were
not too impressed with the negitive responce you got .

Perhaps you could let us know if the forum has had any imput into your way of thinking on the matter. :?: :?: 

REgards Boysie


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