# My new folding workbench - I'm after some feedback!



## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

Okay so take two. 

I have introduced myself here before but for those of you who may not have seen then here it is. My name is Greg and i'm a cabinet maker / finishing carpenter who's been in business around 18 months now. In the beginning the plan was to be mainly workshop based and invest all my (little) money into getting myself a full workshop, however over the last 18 months i've discovered that it's very difficult to start from nothing and have a) enough work to warrant a full workshop and b) savings to afford high end workshop machinery. As a consequence i have ended more site based (residential and shop fitting)

To be honest I enjoy it, a lot. I miss being in the workshop but I find it very difficult to keep motivation all the time and find myself procrastinating making projects that don't earn me any money. 

Seeing as though almost all of my money has now gone onto investing in mobile and portable equipment. The one thing I have missed more than anything else is a decent solid workbench to work from. I've tried trestles but its not even close, workmates are equally no good. So I decided that I would borrow an MFT/3 from a friend for a week to see how I got on with it and in all honesty, I liked it, but I couldn't get on with it as I needed more out of my workbench. The things that didn't work for me are as follows:

1) I use my workbench as a sort of centre of setup type of area. This means that I spend most of my time working from it, be it cutting / routing / sanding or simply planning and organising my setup. The MFT for me fell down here as its a great bench but i want more storage options, and more adaptability.

2) Working mainly finish carpentry I fit a lot of doors. A lot and I like to have a setup where I can do everything in one spot. Cut, install hardware and plane to then be taken away to hang. The MFT is perfect for cutting the doors but where it falls down for me is there is no where to securely hold the door on its end for the routing of hinges etc. 

3) Hand planing puts an awful lot of lateral force on the workbench and I don't like a bench that has movement in it when i'm planing. 

So there's my brief now it's time to put my experiences into practice and design something that suits my needs! Here is what I came up with. 

It's a birch ply workbench, with a shelf, with side mounts for doors, with tool tote for to keep my bench dogs and other small tools off the worktop, an MDF top with 96 centred 20mm dog holes. Most importantly it fold to less that 90mm thick. it takes 20 seconds to put up and slides into my van when not in use. Most importantly this thing is strong, and i mean strong! There is no lateral movement what so ever. I've been using both the mk1 prototype and mk2 prototype for nearly 6 months now and I really don't know how i lived without it. For me, its everything I need.

I've already thought of a million accessories to go with it, and I plan on developing this further. I have started the process to putting it on the market as i truly believe that its a good idea, however I'm here for your opinion not your money. What do you think? would you have one? What would you do differently? I will record a short video of me putting it up and performing some basic operations if anyone is interested? 

Hopefully this meets forum rules.


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## dzj (5 Sep 2016)

Looks interesting. I'd make one side flush with the top, so that it's easier to clamp
a door or a frame when installing hinges for example.
Another six- seven months of regular use will tell you where the shortcomings are.
I also think that claiming that a ply workbench can substitute a traditional one will give the 
hand tool crowd an aneurysm.


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## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

dzj":1qsmjgd1 said:


> Looks interesting. I'd make one side flush with the top, so that it's easier to clamp
> a door or a frame when installing hinges for example.
> Another six- seven months of regular use will tell you where the shortcomings are.
> I also think that claiming that a ply workbench can substitute a traditional one will give the
> hand tool crowd an aneurysm.



Its a bold claim i realise but it really is that strong haha! As for being able to clamp the door at the top i find there is no need. I will upload a video and hopefully that will show why. Im currently working on an accessorie which are two t tracks running across the bbac and front which will be held in with m8 plastic headed bolts. This should allow clamping space and also the ability for sliding style jigs

The other reason the top cannot be flush is because if the mortoce is open it would allow for the top rail and therefor tennon to bow out and therefor qould affect the structural integrity. 

Thanks for the feedback this is what i need. Another forum mentioned a second shelf.

Im also working on a router insert


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## curtisrider (5 Sep 2016)

That looks really neat, a video of it being assembled/disassembled and in use would be great and make it easier to give feedback of improvements for it


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## rafezetter (5 Sep 2016)

get the design registered pronto - NOT A PATENT as they are virtually worthless and hard to enforce but a "registered design" will hold up worldwide including those thieving chinese.

looks good and I can see a market for it - especially as most of the new workmates are apparently utter carp now.


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## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

It has both copy roght and desig n rights on it. I think thats the same as design rrefistere but ill double check that now.

Thanks guys ill post a video this week


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## denboy (5 Sep 2016)

Hi C-C,
this would have been very useful to me before I retired and when I was working out of a van, and exactly what I was looking for. I'm very very impressed. If you want anyone to try it out for you, I would be delighted. One point though- I have no experience whatever in patents or manufacturing, but it is a topic I have read lots about and it seems that it is strewn with expensive failures, rip-offs, and heartbreaks. This often has nothing to do with the quality of the design but the nature of the marketplace. however these days there seems to be a market for plans sold over the internet. As it is made out of wood, and your target audience seems good at making stuff so might you be better off thinking about selling the plans? Of course, I may be talking rubbish. Not for the first time either.


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## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

denboy":28q0ei1k said:


> Hi C-C,
> this would have been very useful to me before I retired and when I was working out of a van, and exactly what I was looking for. I'm very very impressed. If you want anyone to try it out for you, I would be delighted. One point though- I have no experience whatever in patents or manufacturing, but it is a topic I have read lots about and it seems that it is strewn with expensive failures, rip-offs, and heartbreaks. This often has nothing to do with the quality of the design but the nature of the marketplace. however these days there seems to be a market for plans sold over the internet. As it is made out of wood, and your target audience seems good at making stuff so might you be better off thinking about selling the plans? Of course, I may be talking rubbish. Not for the first time either.



Where abouts do you live denboy? As for patenting ive read the same as you. Im going down the route of manufacture and if it doesnt work out and someone rips me off i'll sell the plans. 

Only time will tell but without giving it my best shot ill never know.

Thanks for your input denboy


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## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

Also im sorry for the terrible grammar and spelling im working off my phone today and trying to get on with other jobs so im rushing replies. I hope you all understand what im teying to say but if not feel free to call me put on it. 
Cheers
Coach carpenter


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## mbartlett99 (5 Sep 2016)

There's a guy on ebay selling something vaguely similar but not half as fully featured for £90 out of birch ply - I bought an mf style top from him (its very precisely done). Looks like he's got a cnc machine. There must be a market - kudos to you for what looks like a great design, best of luck.


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## sustad (5 Sep 2016)

Looks good.


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## NazNomad (5 Sep 2016)

Looks good. How tight will it be once you've assembled/dismantled it a heap of times?


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## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

mbartlett99":14afztd8 said:


> There's a guy on ebay selling something vaguely similar but not half as fully featured for £90 out of birch ply - I bought an mf style top from him (its very precisely done). Looks like he's got a cnc machine. There must be a market - kudos to you for what looks like a great design, best of luck.



I know him very well and he has a superb setup... 2 industrial cnc machines. Thats why i went to him.


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## mbartlett99 (5 Sep 2016)

Ahhh, makes sense now.


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## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

NazNomad":12no60yp said:


> Looks good. How tight will it be once you've assembled/dismantled it a heap of times?


 
I built my first prototype over 6 months ago now and i must have assembled and dissasembled it 125- 150 times. Its no where near as accurate as the cnc cut benches and its still as solid as it was on day one. Because of the orientation of the mortices it doesnt matter too much if they wear slightl as the mortice perpendicular to it will eliminate the slack in that direction and visa versa. Im actually using my prototype today. Ill upload a pic now


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## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

Here are a couple of pics of what ive been upto today. Just some very simple exterior cedar cladding to modernise a 50s bungalow.


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## coach-carpenter (5 Sep 2016)

Okay so the attatchments didnt send ill try again after as im on my phone


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## coach-carpenter (7 Sep 2016)

Finally got round to doing a quick couple of videos, 

Have a look and let me know what you think. Just to let you know i recorded these at 10pm this evening so they are very rough, but hopefully give you an idea. 

Cheers

https://youtu.be/_cJdU38RKVA
https://youtu.be/x6UtB9VcQ74
https://youtu.be/NukDXzC3AE4


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## marcros (8 Sep 2016)

it is certainly an interesting design and seems to work. what is the likely price going to be?


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## n0legs (8 Sep 2016)

coach-carpenter":2ojz39u6 said:


> Finally got round to doing a quick couple of videos,
> 
> https://youtu.be/_cJdU38RKVA




How do we know you and the mrs ain't one of those new trendy helium couples?? :shock: 

I jest, looks good mate =D> 
Good luck


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## dzj (8 Sep 2016)

Sturdy and practical. Perhaps couple it with a saw horse of similar design
and height to tackle longer stock.
You could add a router table or circ saw attachment to that mid shelf someone suggested.
It's always a fine line when making universal things that they not become bloated with attachments, 
but this is ultimately your call.

Good luck.


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## Halo Jones (8 Sep 2016)

It looks good and sturdy and useful but there is something about the design that, for me, stops it being a premium product. It looks like it has been designed to either fit the max sizes of a cnc machine or to use sheets goods as efficiently as possible. I know those things should always be considered but it should not have been one of the first things that I, as a consumer, thought of.

So - a great looking prototype but I think it needs a bit of design work to give it a bigger market (especially for the price you are asking for on e-bay).

Good luck!


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## coach-carpenter (8 Sep 2016)

Halo Jones":10osfxcf said:


> It looks good and sturdy and useful but there is something about the design that, for me, stops it being a premium product. It looks like it has been designed to either fit the max sizes of a cnc machine or to use sheets goods as efficiently as possible. I know those things should always be considered but it should not have been one of the first things that I, as a consumer, thought of.
> 
> So - a great looking prototype but I think it needs a bit of design work to give it a bigger market (especially for the price you are asking for on e-bay).
> 
> Good luck!



Thats interesting feedback actually. The things i'm working on are better hinges at the moment. The whole concept has actually been designed around the MFT3 top. It is when assembled the the same dimensions as the MFT3 and when flat packed 60mm narrower. There is a lot of waste on the CNC at the moment but as time goes on and the product develops as with the accessories the waste will hopefully become smaller. 

As for the price. that is good feedback it's priced at that to see what the market is. I believe its nearest compentitors are administers UJK technologies bench, the MFT3 and tritons new work system. Al of which are either the same or more expensive. 

How much would you consider paying for one? 

Cheers


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## coach-carpenter (8 Sep 2016)

dzj":3r2v2tlw said:


> Sturdy and practical. Perhaps couple it with a saw horse of similar design
> and height to tackle longer stock.
> You could add a router table or circ saw attachment to that mid shelf someone suggested.
> It's always a fine line when making universal things that they not become bloated with attachments,
> ...



The saw horse Idea is a nice idea! I think the beauty in my opinion is the ability to make this fit your needs. You could put a roll of paper on the side to drag over to protect the top when finishing. you could make stands for track saws etc. boom arm for vacuum.


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## coach-carpenter (8 Sep 2016)

marcros":39c6405x said:


> it is certainly an interesting design and seems to work. what is the likely price going to be?



I'm trailing it on eBay at the moment at £280. I chose this because as explained in another comment I believe its nearest competitors are axminsters UJK tech bench, the MFT, and the new Triton jobby. 

Due to the birch ply and MDF they are not cheap to machine but I'm interested to know your thoughts on price.


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## Beau (8 Sep 2016)

Looks great. If I end up doing much site work again I would buy one simple as that. Messed around with trestles, workmates and saw horses and they were all unsatisfactory but this looks the dogs danglies. Being a bit traditional is there a design in the pipeline to have a detachable vice?


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## Rorschach (8 Sep 2016)

Looks good and certainly sturdy. I will be honest though, it doesn't look a premium product like the axminster table though I can see more practicality in yours especially for a DIY'er or someonw working from a van where size and space are key. 
I don't know production costs etc but £280 is too high IMO, if you can cut that cost down you will sell a lot I am sure, especially if you can make it cheap enough that people would see it as a backup or add on item, I have several workmates for example because I got them so cheap they were just worth having just in case I need them, maybe you could do similar?


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## Roughcut (8 Sep 2016)

Looks good.
I assume the short YouTube vids were just for short demonstration purposes.
May I suggest you also compliment those with another vid with the holey MFT style top (shown in your previous photo) demonstrating the work holding and cross cutting capabilities.
I feel that would better showcase your product's versatility and further grab potential consumer's attention.


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## pcb1962 (8 Sep 2016)

Rorschach":2hqcg44p said:


> I don't know production costs etc but £280 is too high IMO, if you can cut that cost down you will sell a lot I am sure, especially if you can make it cheap enough that people would see it as a backup or add on item, I have several workmates for example because I got them so cheap they were just worth having just in case I need them, maybe you could do similar?


I agree, I think the price needs to drop by £100 to sell in any quantity


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## Rorschach (8 Sep 2016)

pcb1962":7ejz7fzn said:


> Rorschach":7ejz7fzn said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know production costs etc but £280 is too high IMO, if you can cut that cost down you will sell a lot I am sure, especially if you can make it cheap enough that people would see it as a backup or add on item, I have several workmates for example because I got them so cheap they were just worth having just in case I need them, maybe you could do similar?
> ...



Probably more than that I would say but then my idea of a good price is always skewed as I love a bargain, I bought 2 workmates for £14 a few months back :lol:


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## Beau (8 Sep 2016)

Just a thought from being in the workshop this morning. It would be nice to able to easily clamp to the front of the bench at the ends. If the front and back could overlap the sides but 50mm and you had some packers the thickness that the tops overlap it would making clamping to the front much easier.


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## Beau (8 Sep 2016)

coach-carpenter":1sd2zki6 said:


> dzj":1sd2zki6 said:
> 
> 
> > The other reason the top cannot be flush is because if the mortoce is open it would allow for the top rail and therefor tennon to bow out and therefor qould affect the structural integrity.



If you wanted it flat you could use a dovetail instead of tenon for the joint?


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## coach-carpenter (8 Sep 2016)

This is all excellent stuff and exactly what im looking for. Instead of quoting each person ill just reply here generally. The first and biggest concern I ith regards to price. Unfortunqtely there is absolutely no possibility of dropping the price by 100if this is to be a viable business, so maybe the 40-50 may be doable and if there are enough then I could get cheaper materials prices. 

So maybe the question is how can I make this feel like a more premium product. Its made from cabinet grade birch ply which is expensive. Mrmdf for the top which is standard on the mft3

would it be worth maybe trying to source a phenolic coloured ply? Everytime I use this bench im thankful i have it and ive been woodworking for 12ish years so I feel im in an aceceptable position to make that claim.

the benefits for me are it fold flatter thanahy other orkbench on th market, its far more solid and it has inbuit storage no other portable bench has that, its also very simpl and quick. how do I get that accross? 

Is maybe he problem that its too simple and thats why it doesmt feel premium? Should I go for coloured accessories so it stnds out ore?

Really thanks everypne this is all very very useful


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## Halo Jones (8 Sep 2016)

> Thats interesting feedback actually. The things i'm working on are better hinges at the moment. The whole concept has actually been designed around the MFT3 top. It is when assembled the the same dimensions as the MFT3 and when flat packed 60mm narrower. There is a lot of waste on the CNC at the moment but as time goes on and the product develops as with the accessories the waste will hopefully become smaller.



I did notice the hinges and think they looked like a weak spot. I'm not a designer so would not like to comment too much, apart from that it does look like a prototype and not a finished product. Of the top of my head I would have made sure that the company logo was cnc'd into each of the components; are each of the edges that are likely to be held rounded over? To make it last longer would it be worth machining some metal components into the mortice and tenon area? It might not give more strength but if done properly it would give the perception of extra durability? One thing I do like is that it is flat pack so it should be easy for you to ship efficiently.



> As for the price. that is good feedback it's priced at that to see what the market is. I believe its nearest compentitors are administers UJK technologies bench, the MFT3 and tritons new work system. Al of which are either the same or more expensive.
> 
> How much would you consider paying for one?



As a weekend warrior it is priced out of my market - it would have to be in the £50 - £100 bracket as an impulse buy, or you would have to really convince me that it could replace my table saw in my small shed at the bottom of the garden. Seems like it might be about right for someone in the trade but I don't know the market well enough.

Seems like you are getting a lot of feedback (and none of it too negative!) so I hope you can make it fly.


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## coach-carpenter (8 Sep 2016)

Beau":16pr62rw said:


> Looks great. If I end up doing much site work again I would buy one simple as that. Messed around with trestles, workmates and saw horses and they were all unsatisfactory but this looks the dogs danglies. Being a bit traditional is there a design in the pipeline to have a detachable vice?




There are two 6mm threaded inserts at 138mm apart which I have ctually videod me attqtching a vice to it. I wil upload later. I didt think anyone would be that interested in that but I was wrong haha


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## JohnPW (8 Sep 2016)

Is 'Chestnut' the brand or company name? There's a wood finishing products company with that name.


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## Rorschach (8 Sep 2016)

What is your target market with this bench? If you are targeting trade users then (my opinion of course) they will buy the Festool MFT, for various reasons including the fact that it is simply festool and matches their other gear. Hobbyists are likely going to either buy the MFT if they have the money, the UJK if they want something cheaper with service backup from axminster, or more likely they will just make their own. 
DIY is probably the most likely market to buy something like this, they don't have the money and can't justify the space taken up by the UJK, the cost of the MFT and don't want the hassle of making their own. The problem though is that your price will be too high and they will end up just buying a workmate and/or a couple of saw horses and an old door as a work top. 
Speaking for myself, £300 could buy a nice little table saw to compliment my track saw and chop saw, my workmates make a pretty serviceable bench with a flat top on them and on their own offer clamping solutions.
Just my thoughts anyway. It may be impossible to bring down the cost and I am sure plenty of products have failed for this very reason, it may be a great item (and I do really like the look of it), but if it's not affordable for your target market then you're stuffed really.


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## JohnPW (8 Sep 2016)

Re "premium" product, I think that's more to with brand image and marketing than the actual product.


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## coach-carpenter (8 Sep 2016)

JohnPW":10c17mm3 said:


> Re "premium" product, I think that's more to with brand image and marketing than the actual product.



I agree it needs to become brand. This is what I want to do im in it for the long term so mybe the best bet is to spend the money on marletting it right?


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## Stanleymonkey (8 Sep 2016)

It reminded me a little of the bench by Ron Paulk, but after a quick google I can that this one is very different.

I like the design, simple and quick to put together - looks very strong too.

Good luck with it.


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## brianhabby (8 Sep 2016)

I like the idea, not that I personally have a use for anything like this but for the mobile tradesman it looks ideal. 

Price wise, I think you are in the right ball park, only time will tell. I see you have had it on eBay for a week with a few watches, it will be interesting to see if you sell any. 

A couple of tips for your eBay listing: Try adding a 'Make an Offer' option. You will get some really silly offers which you can just ignore but you will soon get a feel for what people genuinely are prepared to pay but you don't have to accept any of the offers.

Also, make a good demo video and embed it into your eBay listing, I am sure it will help.

Hope the above is of some use.

regards

Brian


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## murdoch (8 Sep 2016)

Really like it, enough so that I am thinking of trying one. With regards to price, the difference between yours and others is that I can claim vat back with say the axminster of festool one, and also get free postage so suddenly yours is more expensive.


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## RogerBoyle (8 Sep 2016)

I like the Idea, Like the design and I can see where it could be useful. But the biggest bug bear for me is the amount of time I spend getting tools and kit in and out of the Van. I notice in your vid that you made 3 trips from the Landrover which was only a few feet away. On some of the sites I use I would be lucky to get 800 feet away from the Job. So Extra trips would not be something I would want. So for that reason I'm out :mrgreen:


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

murdoch":1qsryx49 said:


> Really like it, enough so that I am thinking of trying one. With regards to price, the difference between yours and others is that I can claim vat back with say the axminster of festool one, and also get free postage so suddenly yours is more expensive.



That is a very good póint. One that inhavent thought of. Ill put an make an offer page on the ebay listings. Its hard to do a trade price through ebay and until i become vat registered i cant offer vat diacount but id happily ammend the price if you message me via ebay and ill talk about it there


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

RogerBoyle":1i31xeyb said:


> I like the Idea, Like the design and I can see where it could be useful. But the biggest bug bear for me is the amount of time I spend getting tools and kit in and out of the Van. I notice in your vid that you made 3 trips from the Landrover which was only a few feet away. On some of the sites I use I would be lucky to get 800 feet away from the Job. So Extra trips would not be something I would want. So for that reason I'm out :mrgreen:



Thats something im working on. I bought a load of 2.5m black buckle straps and im looking ant how i can utilise the holes in the side to support the shelf and top and then a strap around the perimeter to hold it together. 

It wihts 28kg all in so its about 2kg heavier than the standard mft3. So you can carry it all together
Your point also would rule out the axi then?

Thanks for your reply
Where are you based?


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

brianhabby":14f827s3 said:


> I like the idea, not that I personally have a use for anything like this but for the mobile tradesman it looks ideal.
> 
> Price wise, I think you are in the right ball park, only time will tell. I see you have had it on eBay for a week with a few watches, it will be interesting to see if you sell any.
> 
> ...



Great idea Brian iwill ammend the eBay listing. As for the video I want to do some proper instruxtional videos but im thinking of recruiting help so I make the most of it with someone elses experties. 

My friend suggested that instead of me and my mrs jumping up and down on it inrecruit several heavily busted beautiful ladies wearing tite clithing as that would surely get me more views :lol: :lol: :lol: it made me laugh anyway!


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

JohnPW":1c868o8o said:


> Is 'Chestnut' the brand or company name? There's a wood finishing products company with that name.



The companh name is chestnut solutions im teying to brand the stuff as chestnut. Again all is a trial at the moment. I need for it to become a proper brand so the name may have to change slightly


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

Stanleymonkey":2tuqzlyw said:


> It reminded me a little of the bench by Ron Paulk, but after a quick google I can that this one is very different.
> 
> I like the design, simple and quick to put together - looks very strong too.
> 
> Good luck with it.



Ibought the Paulk olans and began making the bench when i first set-up on my own. However one thing quickly dawned on me and thats its too big for most UK households. In America pretty much wvery house has a large garden. Most have better weather and their rooms are stonkingly big so its perfect. 

Over here a lot of people dont have garages and if they do they are single garages full of rubbish (i mean that respectfully) 

As for weather, i live in North wales so id be able to use it outaide maybe 220 of the time if im being optimistic. And peoples rooms are much smaller... so i stopped building and moved onto thinkig something else. I then bought the wilmonts plans for the mftc cart again i made that and soon reàlised fully laiden (i had drawers not pull outs for systainers) made it impossible for me and also i had to lie it flat to get it in my landy ( i havrnt bought a van yet) or put it in my box trailer). There was also too much movement for my liking. But other than that its an ultra slick design that if you have a few days soare to make one then is good fun.

Im not dissing any of these designs they are all great but thwy just didnt work for me or my workflow. As for Paulk i watch and take in alot that he teaches... hes a clever man with a lot to offer

And now here i am haha. This is my take.


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## Rorschach (9 Sep 2016)

murdoch":2n5vh1iz said:


> Really like it, enough so that I am thinking of trying one. With regards to price, the difference between yours and others is that I can claim vat back with say the axminster of festool one, and also get free postage so suddenly yours is more expensive.



VAT is an additional cost though, you can't claim it back, but it isn't added on either so there is no difference in price. You buy something from axminster and the item is more expensive to cover the VAT. It's a common mistake people make when buying from small businesses/non-VAT registered, you are not saving 20%, you are simply not paying a premium in the first place.


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

So by knocking 20% off that isnt going to make any differnece to your vat bill? Well if thats the case then until i become VAT registered I cant do anything about that? 

I didnt know that something i need to look into in the future


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## Rorschach (9 Sep 2016)

coach-carpenter":2gn3ij5m said:


> So by knocking 20% off that isnt going to make any differnece to your vat bill? Well if thats the case then until i become VAT registered I cant do anything about that?
> 
> I didnt know that something i need to look into in the future



If you knock 20% then you lose out on 20% of your profit from the item, the person buying saves 20% on the purchase price, you suffer and the buyer benefits. When VAT is involved the 20% goes straight to the government, you don't make any extra money and the buyer doesn't save any money (since you inflated the price by 20% in the first place)


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## clk230 (9 Sep 2016)

The bit to remember in VAT is the A stands for Added , so as Rorschach says the 20% is added to the price .


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

Ahh right. I see. Well message me on eBay if youre srill interested and ill discount it and take the hit. I will look at being Vat registered. I asume if i want to take this seriously then its a must?


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## cantseeitfrommyhouse (9 Sep 2016)

Speaking to Ron Paulk would be a good idea. He's making a fortune from selling plans and he's already explored manufacture. He might be able to put you in contact with someone who's prepared to make it as a kit and you can just sit back and collect the royalty cheques for the design. Easy money. 

There's some other home brew inventions for the woodworking industry that have found commercial success. Try FastCap and Axminster for design licenced manufacture etc.


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

Perfect. Yes i watch ron closely and have tried to get intouch but with no luck will try again.


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## murdoch (9 Sep 2016)

The VAT is only an issue for people who are Vat registered. To most people it makes no differnce but every quarter i claim any Vat i have paid back from hmrc. So for me if i spend £1200 with a Vat registered company I know that i can claim £200 vat back so the actual cost to me is £1000. This is why £280 spent with axi or coach carpenter is actually £280 vs £233

I would only become vat registered if you have too which is when your turnover hits a certain amount. Threshold set at about 83k from memory.


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## clk230 (9 Sep 2016)

murdoch":3gl79tkb said:


> The VAT is only an issue for people who are Vat registered. To most people it makes no differnce but every quarter i claim any Vat i have paid back from hmrc. So for me if i spend £1200 with a Vat registered company I know that i can claim £200 vat back so the actual cost to me is £1000. This is why £280 spent with axi or coach carpenter is actually £280 vs £233
> 
> I would only become vat registered if you have too which is when your turnover hits a certain amount. Threshold set at about 83k from memory.



If the new bench had VAT on then it would be another £56 you would still be paying £280 after you've claimed your vat back.


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## marcros (9 Sep 2016)

clk230":3dt7lv8t said:


> murdoch":3dt7lv8t said:
> 
> 
> > The VAT is only an issue for people who are Vat registered. To most people it makes no differnce but every quarter i claim any Vat i have paid back from hmrc. So for me if i spend £1200 with a Vat registered company I know that i can claim £200 vat back so the actual cost to me is £1000. This is why £280 spent with axi or coach carpenter is actually £280 vs £233
> ...



assuming that it was still £280. the manufacturer would have been able to claim back the VAT on the components and materials, so it should be less than that.


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## clk230 (9 Sep 2016)

Far to many assumptions going on , the price is the price . 
If I was selling these on Ebay I would price at £299 or best offer with free postage and forget listing the same item countless times it doesn't help and is against Ebay policy .Maybe consider putting one up for auction ?


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## RogerBoyle (9 Sep 2016)

coach-carpenter":16wxa6sl said:


> RogerBoyle":16wxa6sl said:
> 
> 
> > I like the Idea, Like the design and I can see where it could be useful. But the biggest bug bear for me is the amount of time I spend getting tools and kit in and out of the Van. I notice in your vid that you made 3 trips from the Landrover which was only a few feet away. On some of the sites I use I would be lucky to get 800 feet away from the Job. So Extra trips would not be something I would want. So for that reason I'm out :mrgreen:
> ...



I wouldn't have the axi one either. I'm based in South Derbyshire. most of my work is Burton upon Trent, Swadlincote, Measham and Ashby-de-la-Zouch, with the Occasional trips out to Leicester, Nottingham and Birmingham.
Most of my work is Private sector Manufacture and fitting of Bedrooms and Kitchens with the occasional trip to help some friends out on site work.

I currently use two Stanley Plastic saw horses from Screwfix at £20 and A bit of 18mm MDF that I've drilled a series of holes using the Parf Guide system .
They can be carried at the same time in one arm while I carry something else like my transformer or drill box etc. etc.


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## ardenwoodcraft (9 Sep 2016)

Hello Coach Carpenter,
With regard to the posters who have voiced opinions about getting their bench, tools etc from their vehicle to the job site. Would it be possible to have a wheeled platform type accessory to turn the bench into a kind of sack truck so the bench and tools, transformers, etc could be carried to the job site as one package??


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

clk230":1uigr851 said:


> Far to many assumptions going on , the price is the price .
> If I was selling these on Ebay I would price at £299 or best offer with free postage and forget listing the same item countless times it doesn't help and is against Ebay policy .Maybe consider putting one up for auction ?



Makes sense. The only reason i've posted the listings so many times is literally so i can see which area gets the most hits and the most watchers and preferably sell the most haha. 

The postage thing makes sense. at the end of the day its going to have to be posted no matter where it is. 

Thanks


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

RogerBoyle":1nz5036f said:


> coach-carpenter":1nz5036f said:
> 
> 
> > RogerBoyle":1nz5036f said:
> ...



At the end of the day if that works in your favour then why would you change? If I got on with my trestles and MDF top then i wouldn't of come up with this idea as i'd have no need for it. I couldn't and here i am, but I appreciate that this isn't going to be for everyone and I will never be able to please everyone as well thats impossible. 

Cheers RogerBoyle
Coach Carpenter


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

ardenwoodcraft":32k1opll said:


> Hello Coach Carpenter,
> With regard to the posters who have voiced opinions about getting their bench, tools etc from their vehicle to the job site. Would it be possible to have a wheeled platform type accessory to turn the bench into a kind of sack truck so the bench and tools, transformers, etc could be carried to the job site as one package??



Certainly a possibility worth looking into and developing. Watch this space. At the end of the day what i want from this is to start a brand, that finds solutions for woodworkers who are otherwise not 100% satisfied with their current set-up. From there I plan on making a range of accessories which would suit say the kitchen fitter over a flooring fitter over a finish carpenter etc and if you're all of them then to have a base package in which different accessories can be used for different tasks.


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## cantseeitfrommyhouse (9 Sep 2016)

Put some mesh side panels on it and it can double as a travel cot


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## cantseeitfrommyhouse (9 Sep 2016)

Another option to consider is having the frame made out of glass fibre reinforced plastic. High tooling costs no doubt but possibly cheaper than messing about with CNC and expensive ply. The hinge could then be integrated into the mold. 

What is the centre deflection like on the MDF top with no torsion box setup/ cross braces? I like my work table to be flat as a pancake.


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

cantseeitfrommyhouse":2bhnxap2 said:


> Another option to consider is having the frame made out of glass fibre reinforced plastic. High tooling costs no doubt but possibly cheaper than messing about with CNC and expensive ply. The hinge could then be integrated into the mold.
> 
> What is the centre deflection like on the MDF top with no torsion box setup/ cross braces? I like my work table to be flat as a pancake.



Have a look at the video i uploaded on Youtube. With two of us jumping up and down on the workbench, the deflection is minimal really. infact it will be exactly the same as on an MFT3 - same size top but much thicker support rails. It's minimal enough for its intended purpose which is all I think that can be asked of it.


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## coach-carpenter (9 Sep 2016)

cantseeitfrommyhouse":34sf2iza said:


> Put some mesh side panels on it and it can double as a travel cot



Always open to ideas... can't guarantee it will make it through r&d....


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## petermillard (10 Sep 2016)

Nice bench - looks like you've put plenty of thought into it, and how it works for you, but I think you're making a mistake if you think that everyone has the same issues that you do with existing portable benches.

By definition, you're trying to sell a finished product (with all that entails - warranty issues, returns, VAT, carriage etc...) to people who are good at making things, and for whom the existing portable benches don't work well enough; how big a market is that, in this country? I see lots of guys using a pair of sawhorses with an mft-style top, or those keter workbenches, or just old workmates, or maybe - being good at making stuff - they made their own to suit their needs. Here's mine, from 2008:-







I made it narrow so it fits on the front paths or hallways of the London terraced houses I mostly work in, with pull-out hooks for doors. Made it short to fit in my van, and it folded up so you can easily carry it one-handed. I still use it today (not as pristine, mind!) because it's perfect - for me. For others, it may be too small, or not sturdy enough, or too low, or whatever. Point is that you've made yours to suit you - it folds up so it fits in your trailer, for example - and not everyone wants what you want.

On top of that, you're asking a few hundred quid for something that, with respect, a lot of people may feel they could easily make from a couple of sheets of ply or MDF. Now maybe there's more of a market there than I think, but even Ron Paulk, after selling 'thousands and thousands' (video) of plans for his benches since 2011 has only just (last month) announced availability of a smaller bench made in association with FastCap, available in kit form or fully assembled. Not to discourage you, but here in Britain with a smaller addressable market and higher costs, I think a one-man-band startup would struggle to sell in significant numbers - but totally happy for you to prove me wrong!

Have you considered selling plans? I feel it may be a simpler way to start.

Best of luck with it - let us know how you get on.

Pete


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## brianhabby (10 Sep 2016)

The plans idea that several people have mentioned is certainly worth looking at. Making & selling the benches either fully assemble or as a kit pretty much restricts your market to where you can ship them (the UK) but selling plans your market suddenly becomes global - and a lot less work for you. 

I saw this video you may find interesting.

regards

Brian


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## cantseeitfrommyhouse (10 Sep 2016)

Thinking about it, as I have been, plans may not work as it only really works as a CNC cut acurate thing. If you were to build your own it would take ages to set up router templates for all the cuts. just wouldn't be worth it, especially factoring the wastage of ply. 

Also, as it stands it only works on flat ground. These days there are some really nice quality sawhorses with adjustable legs (eg: toughbuilt) that you can make an 8x4 table in similarly quick time. (perhaps even out of site materials rather than lugging it from your van).


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## coach-carpenter (10 Sep 2016)

petermillard":prv3entl said:


> Nice bench - looks like you've put plenty of thought into it, and how it works for you, but I think you're making a mistake if you think that everyone has the same issues that you do with existing portable benches.
> 
> By definition, you're trying to sell a finished product (with all that entails - warranty issues, returns, VAT, carriage etc...) to people who are good at making things, and for whom the existing portable benches don't work well enough; how big a market is that, in this country? I see lots of guys using a pair of sawhorses with an mft-style top, or those keter workbenches, or just old workmates, or maybe - being good at making stuff - they made their own to suit their needs. Here's mine, from 2008:-
> 
> ...



I understand where you are coming from but I have to say i don't agree. yes the people who buy these things will have the skills and equipment to build their own of course... how ever they probably lack the time, or want to do that. At the end of the day you essentially saying there's no market - if that was the case then UJK would never have bothered, neither would festool. We can all make a bench - but how many of us actually do? 

I have thought many times about plans but as previously said its a last resort for me. I don't see the longevity in it - I'm thinking longer term with this. 

I hope I can prove you wrong haha but either way unless I try i'll never know right? 

Cheers

Coachy.


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## coach-carpenter (10 Sep 2016)

brianhabby":2nvrervv said:


> The plans idea that several people have mentioned is certainly worth looking at. Making & selling the benches either fully assemble or as a kit pretty much restricts your market to where you can ship them (the UK) but selling plans your market suddenly becomes global - and a lot less work for you.
> 
> I saw this video you may find interesting.
> 
> ...



Yeah like i said I already have the plans - it was the first thing i did and my first idea but as mentions above... i'm looking at the long term. Also previous example was Ron Paulk who has only just started selling his benches in kit form - but he's done that because he also believes there's a market for it. 

And thanks for that video i was watching it the other day actually I'm subscribed to Marius' videos. I like him and he is entertaining. I've made a set of cam clamps on the band saw but I need to get some more CNC cut. 

Coachy.


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## coach-carpenter (10 Sep 2016)

cantseeitfrommyhouse":2yxdu5jc said:


> Thinking about it, as I have been, plans may not work as it only really works as a CNC cut acurate thing. If you were to build your own it would take ages to set up router templates for all the cuts. just wouldn't be worth it, especially factoring the wastage of ply.
> 
> Also, as it stands it only works on flat ground. These days there are some really nice quality sawhorses with adjustable legs (eg: toughbuilt) that you can make an 8x4 table in similarly quick time. (perhaps even out of site materials rather than lugging it from your van).



Well the CNC would help with the accuracy but i built my first prototype in the shop and still use it now - it works fine aslong as you take your time marking out. 

As for the not working on level ground i'm not sure where you get the idea that you can't use it on un-even ground? I use it all the time outside on uneven paving slaps. If the ground is that bad I stick wedges under the leg - keeps it all flat and sturdy, it's simple and you really don't need anymore than that. Imho usually when working on a site you don't need a dead level workbench - you need it flat and you need it strong 

I have always made make shift benches out of saw horses and trestles - most people do and a lot of happy with that. a lot of people however aren't happy with that. especially if the piece of ply you made your bench top out of is the last one that you need to finish the job  

Coachy


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## ColeyS1 (10 Sep 2016)

I think the bench is really smart ! 
To be honest though the only issue I see with making the same, would be getting the holes in the right place. A few notches, cuts and some piano hinge and i can't warrant the price tag. For me,to buy it,the cost would have to be for me to not worth replicating. At 300 quid I could save money by cutting it by hand myself. I admire your ambition, perhaps the hole placement is a unique selling point? 

Coley


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## petermillard (11 Sep 2016)

coach-carpenter":6i9vqdex said:


> At the end of the day you essentially saying there's no market - if that was the case then UJK would never have bothered, neither would festool.


Not at all - I'm suggesting that the market is small, and increasingly competitive, e.g. from the UJK and Triton tables you referred to earlier up the thread, from people on eBay with access to a CNC, from people making their own, etc... FWIW I have an MFT but don't use it at job sites as it's way too heavy/unwieldy for me (note space constraints mentioned previously) and is particularly good at things I simply don't need on an install.

FWIW I think your pricing is pretty good, and as I said earlier it's a nice-looking bench that you've clearly put a lot of thought into - if you made one in a size I wanted, I'd probably be interested in buying rather than building, as I know a/. how much birch ply costs, and b/. what my time is worth - but not everyone will see it that way.



> We can all make a bench - but how many of us actually do?


Well, you do, and so did I and quite a few other people I know! Seriously, I'm not trying to discourage you or come across as negative at all, and I genuinely wish you all the best with it - just be aware that you're playing in an increasingly crowded field, that IMHO was pretty small to start with.

Cheers, Pete


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## lurker (11 Sep 2016)

It's nice and you my well sell a few to time poor site chippies and one man shows.
I think your price is decent given the timber and and time saved.

Peter Millard has a good argument as to why you may struggle with your target market.

I would target the "hipsters" who are wealthy, live in pokey rented flats and are into making things not necessarily wood based. It is perfect to use and knock down a few months later when you move flats.
Get on the current fad of these folks "repurposing" ( making carp) .
It's sellable as a "bit of design" in its own right I think.


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## lurker (11 Sep 2016)

By the way, I'd not sell plans.
You will get them ripped off in no time at all.


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## lurker (11 Sep 2016)

I have just been watching the u tubes.
A thought struck me, have you ever used pipe cramps like those very popular over the pond?

I bought several of these years ago.... About 10 dollars a throw in Home depot, I think pony brand, Axminster sell a knock off.
A plumber mate "acquired" the pipe in various lengths
They are very versatile and look just the things for your bench


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## coach-carpenter (11 Sep 2016)

lurker":303ummeu said:


> I have just been watching the u tubes.
> A thought struck me, have you ever used pipe cramps like those very popular over the pond?
> 
> I bought several of these years ago.... About 10 dollars a throw in Home depot, I think pony brand, Axminster sell a knock off.
> ...



I don't think i have - can you give me an example? I', intregued.


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## coach-carpenter (11 Sep 2016)

lurker":1wnzad2q said:


> It's nice and you my well sell a few to time poor site chippies and one man shows.
> I think your price is decent given the timber and and time saved.
> 
> Peter Millard has a good argument as to why you may struggle with your target market.
> ...



A market I have never thought of - maybe etsy or similar may be agood market place for that sort of custom?

Thanks! 
Coachy


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## Benchwayze (12 Sep 2016)

Hi Coachy,


My compliments on the design and construction of your bench. 

I use an MFT for most of my machine woodwork. (When I can find time to do any). It's okay-ish but somewhat shaky, and I want to make a 'rolling-bench' to suit it. I don't think that needs any plans mind as it's a straightforward job, just a robust frame of the right size for the top, and space below for the systainers . :mrgreen: Add some good castors and I'll be away. 

I tried to design a combined workbench/assembly table but everything I came up with would have meant clearing the workbench every five minutes to use it for assembling. I realised I would HAVE to make or buy a workbench, and a separate assembly table. I wanted the luxury of just picking up say face frame components, transferring to a nice clear surface to start assembly. 

That's the ideal then, but being short of space, it must wait. When I can finish off the new shed in the back yard, I'll be able to make the ultimate assembly, table! Another 'round-tuit'! :roll: 

Cheers

John


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## coach-carpenter (12 Sep 2016)

Benchwayze":1kvsjk5x said:


> Hi Coachy,
> 
> 
> My compliments on the design and construction of your bench.
> ...



Thanks John! Yeah that sounds like a plan - i had the same thoughts with the MFT. I like it a lot but it isn't very stable. And i totally agree with you and having two benches - you always end up with rubbish all over one of them and having to clear it up to assemble something. I have a workshop but i'm looking to build my own eventually - underfloor heating etc, A man can only dream! 

Coachy.


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## Fatboy (13 Sep 2016)

I like it, clever design, but who is your target demographic? at £280 its pretty steep for the amateur or part time woodworker.


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## coach-carpenter (13 Sep 2016)

I'm a trade user, it's built to suit my purpose and that the market i'm looking at. If I manage to break that market and it gets its name out there then ameature woodworkers and enthusiasts will more likely purchase. This is the way i see it but of course i could be wrong. The price is high to see what interest I get, realistically I expect £240-£250 range. 

At the end of the day it works for its intended purpose, its crazily adaptable and it's not ugly and and full of unnecessary fixings. Simplicity is the key. It's early days yet but I have a meeting with two local builders merchants in my area who i hope will be willing to retail in there stores but only time will tell. 

I've had quote for coloured ply but at a wopping £147+vat per sheet based on 25 sheet purchase I feel this is a little ridiculous.

Cheers.

Coachy.


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## ColeyS1 (13 Sep 2016)

My concern would be someone with a flush cut bit who has a few mates who want one. Is there a way you could design it so a flush bit couldn't simply make spares ? 

Coley


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## lurker (14 Sep 2016)

ColeyS1":3rdfob7p said:


> My concern would be someone with a flush cut bit who has a few mates who want one. Is there a way you could design it so a flush bit couldn't simply make spares ?
> 
> Coley



Once you have bought the materials and costed the time at commercial rates its not much cheaper is it?


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## lurker (14 Sep 2016)

coach-carpenter":ryhq9jcq said:


> lurker":ryhq9jcq said:
> 
> 
> > I have just been watching the u tubes.
> ...



google "Pony Pipe Clamps"
or http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-tr ... amp-505560
the main outlay is threaded 3/4" pipe
Scrap yards have loads unless you know a plumber or sparky who does commecial work


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## coach-carpenter (14 Sep 2016)

ColeyS1":1pak0y0w said:


> My concern would be someone with a flush cut bit who has a few mates who want one. Is there a way you could design it so a flush bit couldn't simply make spares ?
> 
> Coley



I think the risk is relatively low. You could do that with virtually any wooden product on the market. The people who have such an inclination are probably unlikely to buy one in the first place id have thought? They wouldnt be able to sell them publically due to designers rights. Design registration etc... so i dont really see what the point would be. 

Someone vould do the same with axminsters vesrion too if they so desired

Ceers
Coachy


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## Halo Jones (15 Sep 2016)

Have you seen CNCdesign.co.uk

They have knockdown workbenches very similar to yours (have no idea if they are as sturdy) but they are only £129.00. If just taking a punt as a weekend warrior I know which one I would end up going for.

Cheers,

H.


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## Rorschach (15 Sep 2016)

Halo Jones":2wf7mg68 said:


> Have you seen CNCdesign.co.uk
> 
> They have knockdown workbenches very similar to yours (have no idea if they are as sturdy) but they are only £129.00. If just taking a punt as a weekend warrior I know which one I would end up going for.
> 
> ...



Interesting! Thanks for the link.


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## coach-carpenter (15 Sep 2016)

Halo Jones":3akcdkih said:


> Have you seen CNCdesign.co.uk
> 
> They have knockdown workbenches very similar to yours (have no idea if they are as sturdy) but they are only £129.00. If just taking a punt as a weekend warrior I know which one I would end up going for.
> 
> ...


I know Rick very well. He has helped me devlop my bench to what it is. Those cutting tables are excellent and very strong. But they are designed as a semi permanent solution. Not a quick portable. Light weight workbench. 

If that suits your needs better then that is fair enough, i do think you may be missing the fact they are designed for different things. Rick refers to his as a cutting bench / table due to its hieght and the fact its designed purely for cutting sheets. Not as a workbench. 

Cheers
Coachy


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## coach-carpenter (15 Sep 2016)

So after getting of the phine to Rick, he recommended selling them cheap with only a tiny profit in order to get internet sales moving then gradually as the name gets out increase the price. Also for the lower price send it out kit in kit form with hinges and screws etc. For people to assemble themselves.

What do you recon?


Cheers
Coachy


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## clk230 (15 Sep 2016)

There would have to be an element of trust but could you licence your design to Rick and let him sell them it may mean you only earn say £10 out of each bench but you wouldn't actually be doing any of the work .
As a business selling one design of bench is never going to bring much revenue in .


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## coach-carpenter (15 Sep 2016)

I agree for the immidiate future but thats not the plan i have for Chestnut woodworking solutions. I hopesolul grow and diversify into many products woodwork related 

Everthing will still happen through myself i just have them manufactured elsewhere. Its the only way to garantee accuracy and quality of the product.


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