# Chisels - how low can you go?



## AndyT (3 Nov 2013)

There has been some interest in cheap chisels lately, some of it inspired by Paul Sellers' rave reception of a set of four chisels from Aldi for £7.95. I expect these are unobtainable now so thought I'd have a look at an alternative.

I bought this - purely for research, and for your benefit - from Poundland:








If that's too cheap for anyone, I think it's the same as you can get from Toolstation at £2.41, though theirs is marked 13mm and comes with an empty space for you to put your own choice of sticker:






First, let's look at what you get, compared to other options.











From the top, these are: 

- Footprint firmer chisel, early 70s
- Marples bevel edge, some time in the early C20th
- Stanley, late 70s
- This one.

You can see that you actually get quite a small bit of steel, with a skimpy handle, overall length only about 9".
From the side, it's as thick as the firmer chisel, clumsier than the Stanley bevel-edged, and definitely not the same sort of tool as the delicate Marples. That's no surprise - I would expect this to be a general purpose chisel.

The bevelling does little more than take the corners off, but is quite tidily done; those grinding marks are very shallow and not as bad as they look in the photo:






The back (or face if you insist) has been dinged by a sharp corner of something and has a lump on it:






but that is very easily removed.

As supplied, the non-bevel side is completely flat, as shown against this M&W engineer's square:






and the bevel is ground to 30°






The handle has flash from the moulding machine all round it






but that is easily removed with a knife or sandpaper.

So is it any use?

I sharpened it in my usual way and tried it out. 

[This is not a thread about sharpening. Anyone reading this who does not know how to sharpen a chisel should seek professional help. If you think there could be more than one way that works, read on!]

Here's some evidence that it very easily came to a mirror finish, flat all the way across, in a very short time:






I tried paring some old, dry, hard English oak - it worked fine:






I fitted a little hinge in the same oak offcut - no problem.
















For a test on some softwood, I carved a letter I on a scrap of redwood:
















and I think I can say that any flaws are as much to do with my technique as they were with the tool.

So, in this brief, informal test, it did ok.
I didn't sharpen it after working on the oak, and it was still sharp enough to use.

I was pleased at how straight and flat it was.

The worst aspects were the small size and nasty handle - it was not nicely balanced and felt quite fiddly to hold in my moderately large hands.

I wouldn't make it my first choice, and I can't say how long the edge would last in serious use, but for anyone not wanting to spend more on a proper chisel, it could be used to get a job done. If I was doing a repair job on old painted woodwork where there could be hidden nails or screws, I would use it with no worries of spoiling an expensive tool.

This was bought in the quite large Poundland in Bristol and may not be available in all their shops. They only had this one size.


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## Jacob (3 Nov 2013)

Nice demo!
No surprise really. Chisels are amongst the simplest of tools and not much can go wrong, in spite of the baloney.
The only serious dud I ever had was simply so rusty that it had gone porous. Had to remove 1/2" or so to get back to good metal, then it was OK.


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## JustBen (3 Nov 2013)

Interesting.

I suppose it would be possible to remove the plastic handle and fit your own turned hardwood handles, providing the tang is suitable.

Also assuming that the steel holds an edge for a reasonable time.


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## Cheshirechappie (3 Nov 2013)

That there was only one size available suggests they were selling some bankrupt stock they'd picked up at auction, or some such. Still, even at £2.50 it's less than an Ebay special once the postage is taken into account.

Sounds as if it's a second-string chisel at best. Not the sort of tool you'd want for finer cabinet work. OK for opening paint tins and throwing at unwelcome workshop visitors, though.


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## AndyT (3 Nov 2013)

Just to clarify... £2.41 is the Toolstation price. The chisel under review cost £1.00.Toolbox is the Poundland own brand for tools and is mostly not worth buying.


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## Jacob (3 Nov 2013)

Cheshirechappie":n3fsj2z5 said:


> .... Not the sort of tool you'd want for finer cabinet work. ....


It'd be OK if that was all you had. What could you not do with it?


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## Cheshirechappie (3 Nov 2013)

Jacob":2rtklpsj said:


> Cheshirechappie":2rtklpsj said:
> 
> 
> > .... Not the sort of tool you'd want for finer cabinet work. ....
> ...




Well, like I said, it would be OK for throwing at unwelcome workshop visitors.....


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## woodbrains (3 Nov 2013)

Hello,

Wow, there's a couple of hours of your life you won't get back. :roll: 

Mike.


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## Water-Mark (3 Nov 2013)

As a novice it's good to see reviews like this, thanks for posting I'm sure more than me will find it useful.


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## MIGNAL (3 Nov 2013)

woodbrains":2gi17x8q said:


> Hello,
> 
> Wow, there's a couple of hours of your life you won't get back. :roll:
> 
> Mike.



He's done a review of a cheap chisel that beginners might be interested in. He's taken the time and trouble.
And all you can suggest is that he's wasted his time.
Perhaps it's _you_ who is the waste of time.


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## rspsteve (3 Nov 2013)

Water-Mark":36cnm73w said:


> As a novice it's good to see reviews like this, thanks for posting I'm sure more than me will find it useful.



What he said .


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## tobytools (3 Nov 2013)

Good job Andy, 
Just shows you don't need a LN 

Bravo

TT


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## Jacob (3 Nov 2013)

I'll ask again - what is the problem with using cheap chisels like these? What can you _not_ do?

In my experience most new cheap tools are perfectly OK, just not as "nice". Planes tend to be the exception - some of them are unusable.
I have a strong feeling that many (most?) owners of sets of some well known expensive novelty brands, never use them at all. :lol:


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## iNewbie (3 Nov 2013)

Jacob":1t71bl6x said:


> I'll ask again - what is the problem with using cheap chisels like these? What can you _not_ do?
> 
> *In my experience *most new cheap tools are perfectly OK, just not as "nice". Planes tend to be the exception - some of them are unusable.
> 
> *I have a strong feeling that many (most?) *owners of sets of some well known expensive novelty brands, never use them at all. :lol:



Not in your experience then, but you'll cause some controversy for the sake of it. Giggle. :roll:


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## Graham Orm (3 Nov 2013)

I bought exactly that chisel off the net for about £1.50 as a sacrificial chisel for work that might involve catching a nail or brick etc. The handle shattered the third time I used it!


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## AndyT (3 Nov 2013)

Grayorm":36lod8ij said:


> I bought exactly that chisel off the net for about £1.50 as a sacrificial chisel for work that might involve catching a nail or brick etc. The handle shattered the third time I used it!



I think that's an important difference between this one and the Aldi ones (and other, dearer chisels). I was just pushing by hand, with some very gentle tapping with a mallet for the hinge mortice so did not break the handle. The design of the handle is not good - the conical bolster is narrower than the end of the plastic and looks as if it would push up into the handle if hit too hard.


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## woodbrains (3 Nov 2013)

MIGNAL":1z4jl0e1 said:


> woodbrains":1z4jl0e1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



Hello,

So where is it written that novice equates to garbage tools? I was a novice once and the only regret I ever had was wasting time with absolute, unadulterated, garbage like this. There are _fine_ tools which will do _fine_ work, whatever woodworking discipline you may be involved with, that do not cost premium prices. Shouldn't a bevel edge chisel actually have some bevels? What could this be used for? Most of the other tools in the photo below are very good tools and can be had for little money, second hand. Garbage is always garbage, no matter how you look at it.

Mike.


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## AndyT (3 Nov 2013)

Woodbrains,

The point of my post, which I tried to make clear, was to find out just what the differences are between a reasonably good chisel and the very cheapest. 

Nowhere did I suggest that you should swap your other chisels for these. 

Bevels on chisels are often irrelevant. They don't help with jobs such as the three shown here, which are some of the jobs it could be used for. 

I expected to find garbage, but I didn't. I found a tool which was straight, flat and took a sharp edge.

It was let down by being a bit short and having an inferior handle. And as I said, the edge would probably not last as long as others.


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## G S Haydon (3 Nov 2013)

Andy, well done and thank you. I am hoping to trump you because these have wooden handles and Mr Sellers because mine are cheaper and delivered to my door. I have a set of these on the way http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wood-Chisel-S ... 2c74a7c36f . The handles look the sameish as Mrs Sellers but the blades look like yours.

With respect to Woodbrains comments I feel it essential to have some "beaters" in the kit box. These bevelled firmers or any bevelled firmer do a wonderful job of general purpose woodworking, chopping, paring, working with reclaimed wood, with the fine work reserved for some real bevelled edge paring chisels like the Ashley Iles MkII (just bought the 12mm from wsh and it is a delight and hoping I wont need many more). If the edge fails a little quicker so be it and if the edges have big lands treat them as they should be used, firmer chisels.

I think reviews like this are so useful. I had my fingers crossed about a faithfull #7 but is was sadly junk, that said the #4 was OK. For those strapped for cash it's great to see someone like you taking the time to demonstrate what can be done with very humble tools. I mill add my experience once mine arrive.


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## woodbrains (3 Nov 2013)

AndyT":18olj3yp said:


> Woodbrains,
> 
> The point of my post, which I tried to make clear, was to find out just what the differences are between a reasonably good chisel and the very cheapest.



Hello,

Fair enough. But to what ends do you make the comparison? Not to make me, or you or anyone swap their tools for these. So who _are_ they for. If none of us here would have them, should we recommend them to others; or by omission, allow novices to think they are worthwhile. There are reasons that we would not have them, aren't there? Shouldn't these be mentioned in a review? Jacob says that they might work if he had nothing else, but given the choice, would he have them? If all his tools were lost in a disaster, he would not choose them as replacements over some other brand or some second hand quality ones. Those blue handles Stanley's are old tools and can be had used for 50 pence, so the others are twice the price and inferior. Expensive, in fact, for what you are getting, if extreme budgets are necessary. 

Bevels on bevel edge chisels are absolutely necessary, I'm afraid, but that Footprint firmer is a very good tool for situations where they are not needed.

Let us not mislead novice woodworkers, it is unfair, as many look here for the guidance that is sadly not available in training colleges and the like, anymore.

Incidentally, I have actually handled one of the chisels in question. I reviewed it straight into the bin, after it served as a wedge for holding the door open, until I eventually made a proper wooden wedge. it was no better than a metal stick in a lump of poor quality plastic. I could not think of a better use for it in my workshop.

Mike.


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## AndyT (3 Nov 2013)

Woodbrains - you seem puzzled that I bothered to post this review. The simple answer is that I was curious to find out for myself. 

I know that secondhand tools are brilliant value - two of the three other chisels in the group shot were bought secondhand. But it's easier to pop into a shop than it is to wander round a bootfair, especially at this time of year. 

Also, judging from discussions on here, even if we aspire to do fine woodwork, for many of us that will be mixed in with general diy and household repair jobs. If you only do fine work, I envy you. 

And I don't understand your comment about bevels.


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## Carl P (3 Nov 2013)

I found the review interesting precisely because it detailed the tools shortcomings, as to who it's aimed at, beginners would obviously find it most useful. I don't understand the waves of hostility this sort of post generates, for beginners and people with little experience of cheap tools, it is very informative and helps to gain a fuller understanding of what makes a good tool good.

Cheerio,

Carl


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## Corneel (3 Nov 2013)

One aspect of these cheap chisels is remarkable: the very flat or even a little concave face. When I buy old stuff, the faces are *always* bellied and pitted and usually cause a lot of work until I can easilly reach the edge on a flat stone to wipe off the burr, across the full width. The handle of Andi's chisel seems to be rubish, while the Aldi chisels seem to have reasonable ash handles.


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## nathandavies (3 Nov 2013)

when I first started buying tools, I had little money, but plenty of enthusiasm. this was before internet forums, possibly before decent internet. I bought what I could afford. Some tools I could not wait to replace, but some I continued to use until I just fancied getting better ones. If I was reading this forum I could possibly feel like I could not do anything of any worth unless I had top notch tools. I think we all know that is untrue. Nowadays I am a self confessed tool snob, and would encourage people to buy the best tools they can afford, but if you have a pound in your pocket and need or want a chisel then buying one of these will get your work done, you just won't be taking a selfie with it. I once watched a chippy i'd worked with quite a bit fit an internal corner piece of skirting, using an angle grinder to cut and shape it, I think he'd noticed my early tool snobbery and was proving a point. once fitted it looked better than a lot of skirting i'd seen. It's not what you've got it's how you use them.

nathan


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## Jacob (3 Nov 2013)

woodbrains":3tghshmy said:


> ....
> So where is it written that novice equates to garbage tools? I was a novice once and the only regret I ever had was wasting time with absolute, unadulterated, garbage like this.


Novices, like bad workmen, blame the tools.


> There are _fine_ tools which will do _fine_ work, ......


_Tools_ don't do fine work - the credit always goes to the workman. Better tools may help marginally but a competent person who hasn't been discouraged by the negative propaganda can do good work with all sorts of poor tools.
I get bored hearing the endless moan about garbage tools _made of cheese_ etc. Generally these are from people who aren't very competent. They have to shut up when they have spent £60 per chisel or they'd also look like complete prats!


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## markturner (3 Nov 2013)

Well......no surprise here really. It's like anything else really in life..there is always somebody offering the same thing for less. except, when you look at it closely, it's not the same thing. Sometimes, the whole experience is worth more than the sum of the parts. If you are a complete tight wad who cares nothing more than paying the least price possible for anything you buy, then great... these chisels are for you. 

Personally, I would rather pay £50 for something lovely and hand crafted by people like Lie Nielsen etc who care about what they do, than spend £2.50 on some piece of junk produced by a virtual slave labourer in china that gives zero satisfaction from holding and looking at it.


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## MIGNAL (4 Nov 2013)

Yes but you quite obviously have got £50 to throw at one single chisel. Many people don't. When I was getting into woodwork (at the tender age of 16) I didn't have 'loads of dosh' either. 
It's a chisel. You can sharpen it so that it cuts wood. It works. So does a cheap Zona saw (I have one). So does the Aldi chisel (I have one of those too). I'm a tight wad. 
What's the problem?


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## AndyT (4 Nov 2013)

markturner":1xwchmuy said:


> Well......no surprise here really. It's like anything else really in life..there is always somebody offering the same thing for less. except, when you look at it closely, it's not the same thing. Sometimes, the whole experience is worth more than the sum of the parts. If you are a complete tight wad who cares nothing more than paying the least price possible for anything you buy, then great... these chisels are for you.
> 
> Personally, I would rather pay £50 for something lovely and hand crafted by people like Lie Nielsen etc who care about what they do, than spend £2.50 on some piece of junk produced by a virtual slave labourer in china that gives zero satisfaction from holding and looking at it.



I don't disagree with any of that, but the price of the chisel under review was £1.00.


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## bugbear (4 Nov 2013)

Jacob":2ijf7snb said:


> Cheshirechappie":2ijf7snb said:
> 
> 
> > .... Not the sort of tool you'd want for finer cabinet work. ....
> ...



Why would the absence of other tools improve it? That's gibberish.

BugBear


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## iNewbie (4 Nov 2013)

Jacob":1coreu7s said:


> woodbrains":1coreu7s said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



Its still not about the tools, though. But keep it up. :mrgreen:


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## Mark A (4 Nov 2013)

I have three sets of chisels (in descending order of newness): some Narex bought from Workshop Heaven as a present, some 'new' Irwin Marples and some from B&Q called Magnusson. 

The Narex take a lovely edge are treated well, the Marples are for more general use and the cheap Magnusson are for chiselling masonry and other rough jobs. I'm sure if the glue and cement was scraped of the Magnusson's and they were given a proper edge they would work just as well as a more expensive chisel. It just so happened that I was bought a set of Narex so the others have been demoted to other uses. However, when I first started woodwork the Magnusson's were my good chisels, and looking back they worked fine.

Cheap tools always have a place in the toolbox, either for the rough jobs we don't want to use our better tools for, or for the novice with budget constraints. Thanks Andy for the review!


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## MMUK (4 Nov 2013)

At the end of the day, it's a £1 chisel. It appears to do a half decent job. If you're on a budget or new to the hobby then it's a good starting point. Where's the point spending upwards of £50 on a set of chisels if a) you can't really afford it and b) you don't know if woodwork is going to be right for you?

I think this review is valuable for those new to the hobby especially. Those who aren't sure if they are heading in the right direction and don't want to spend hundreds on something that they may not carry on doing or simply cannot afford the luxury of a set or premium chisels.

I have several cheap chisels from either pound shops or markets. Some I've had for fifteen years or more and they still work. True, I don't tend to use them for "best" but they are generally good for hacking out the majority of waste stock before final trimming with one of my Dynagrip or Marples chisels.


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## DTR (4 Nov 2013)

I've been using Homebase chisels for the last three years


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## PeterBassett (4 Nov 2013)

Some fair snobbery being displayed here. If you wish to spend more on "nicer" tools, then that is entirely your call. I have some nicer tools myself. I also have a set of aldi chisels, amongst others, and they're fine. Take an edge, cut fine etc.

However, the opinion that these chisels, or any cheap tool, is inherently inferior even after they are demonstrated to work within expected tolerance can't be correct can it? For £1 you cant sniff at a chisel that can chop the odd hinge mortice, do some carving and paring. You might not want them yourself but you can't deny that other could make good use of them.

To do so would simply be foolish.


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## monkeybiter (4 Nov 2013)

PeterBassett":liqw53d1 said:


> Some fair snobbery being displayed here...... You might not want them yourself but you can't deny that other could make good use of them.
> To do so would simply be foolish.





MMUK":liqw53d1 said:


> Where's the point spending upwards of £50 on a set of chisels if a) you can't really afford it and b) you don't know if woodwork is going to be right for you?



Spot on!

Thanks AndyT for an informative, realistic and unbiased review. Information not judgement.


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## Jason (4 Nov 2013)

AndyT":3402q6jj said:


> Woodbrains - you seem puzzled that I bothered to post this review. The simple answer is that I was curious to find out for myself.
> 
> I know that secondhand tools are brilliant value - two of the three other chisels in the group shot were bought secondhand. But it's easier to pop into a shop than it is to wander round a bootfair, especially at this time of year.



I think part of the puzzlement might come, not from your review, but from the gushing afterwards and before. You describe a tool that would do at a pinch but with several inferior features. The post straight afterwards declares the chisel a great success, and no wonder as chisels are the easiest of items to produce - Jacob somewhat missing that your review pointed out that the chisel was dinged, had poor balance, a bevel that wouldn't help you and a poor handle (that might break).

To be honest, even though the the £1 chisel might be commended for it's impressive flatness, anyone in the market for a cheap chisel might do better hunting out something with a handle that wasn't rubbish, no? It's only easier until the handle falls off.


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## nanscombe (4 Nov 2013)

I imagine that if someone enjoys using £50 a time chisels then either their clients have probably paid for them or it's not their day job.


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## thick_mike (4 Nov 2013)

Isn't the point here that chisels are pretty easy to make so the variation in quality from the cheapest to the most expensive is small?

Planes are harder to make so the variation in quality from the cheapest to the most expensive is greater.

If you are on a very tight budget then spending more on a plane and less on the chisels is a more sensible way to divide your budget. You are better off with pound shop chisels and a Lie Nielsen plane than you are with Lie Nielsen chisels and a pound shop plane. (and yes, I know neither extreme is the best way to divide the budget!  )


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## woodbrains (4 Nov 2013)

Hello,

'It is often said that a poor workman blames his tools, but even the best craftsman cannot do good work with poor tools, Buy the best tools you can afford'. Quotation from Jim Kingshott, an exemplary craftsman. If you are going to hinder the progress of a keen beginner, then disadvantage them from the start with poor tools. Most will give up with frustration, the rest will probably never realise the high standard they may be capable of. Secretly, is this what some people are aiming to do, so they can feel superior because they can do something others are struggling with? 

Or let us think about it another way. Hands up who would swap their tools for low end rubbish like these chisels? No one I suspect. Then these tools are clearly lacking in ways that _matter_. What are we arguing about, we do not deserve to have to put up with substandard things in the 21st century, when fabulous, fit for purpose tools were made 250 years ago, by people without the advantages of us. Are we really going backwards?

Mike.


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## Jacob (4 Nov 2013)

You haven't said what was wrong with the chisel and why it would be impossible to do good work with it.


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## Carl P (4 Nov 2013)

The work Andy T did with the chisel seemed quite reasonable to me, despite the chisel, and he also listed things he didn't like about it, thus helping everyone to come to their own conclusions about whether they would want to own one, unless of course the tools provenance had already made the decision for them.

For the record, I won't be buying one, I might if I needed something to use in a 'sacrificial' role, but I'm very grateful to Andy T for sharing his findings which have given me a little more knowledge than before,


Cheerio,

Carl


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## Jason (4 Nov 2013)

thick_mike":3vbw3jyi said:


> Isn't the point here that chisels are pretty easy to make so the variation in quality from the cheapest to the most expensive is small?)



No. The review compliments the pound shop chisel for its flatness, but criticises it for numerous other flaws. It's okay at a pinch, but apparently chisels, though a simple tool, aren't all equal.

Happily Lie Nielsen and Poundland aren't the only choices a woodworker has. But it sounds as though there are many better choices across various price ranges (including Lie Nielsens) than a chisel with a handle that might break on its third use.




> 'It is often said that a poor workman blames his tools, but even the best craftsman cannot do good work with poor tools...



I interpret that phrase as saying that a good workman chooses good tools and takes the time to maintain them during his/her working day so they're always in good order and ready to do good work. Good tools and good workmen are inseparable.

To be sure, I don't think that means everyone has to buy a set of premium heir loom quality Lie Nielsen chisels. Oranges aren't the only fruit. But I do think it says that you probably shouldn't stake your reputation on a chisel whose handle might break on its third use.


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## thick_mike (4 Nov 2013)

Jason":ei26rlfx said:


> thick_mike":ei26rlfx said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't the point here that chisels are pretty easy to make so the variation in quality from the cheapest to the most expensive is small?)
> ...



Nobody says they are all the same...you're right the cheapo chisel would do at a pinch, I have heard plenty of people say that certain cheapo planes are unusable though.

Yes, the example chosen was an extreme one to illustrate a point.

Maybe we should have a cheapo toolbox thread...what's the cheapest set of tools you could build a toolbox with?


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## Jason (4 Nov 2013)

That chisel might be unusable once the handle had fallen off.

But sure, finding good value tools on a budget is as interesting a topic as any - so why not.


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## MMUK (4 Nov 2013)

And who's to say the handle won't fall off or break on a Lie Neilsen? Maybe it's highly unlikely but it's still possible.


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## Jason (4 Nov 2013)

> And who's to say the handle won't fall off or break on a Lie Neilsen? Maybe it's highly unlikely but it's still possible.



Well, you just said it was highly unlikely.


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## Water-Mark (4 Nov 2013)

I can't believe the reaction a £1 chisel has caused.


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## MMUK (4 Nov 2013)

Water-Mark":4kqmjck4 said:


> I can't believe the reaction a £1 chisel has caused.




I think it's time to break out the popcorn :lol:


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## thick_mike (4 Nov 2013)

Water-Mark":3aonrudp said:


> I can't believe the reaction a £1 chisel has caused.



Problem is...he sharpened it!


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## tobytools (4 Nov 2013)

Water-Mark":1xhfdwd8 said:


> I can't believe the reaction a £1 chisel has caused.



I agree, it's crazy 

TT


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## Corneel (4 Nov 2013)

The chisel under test had a remarkable piece of steel with a lousy handle. A handle can be made (rougly) by any beginner though. So afterall, not the best choice for a cash strapped beginner, but better then nothing. Holding out for some Aldi chisels might be a better bet.

And don't underestimate beginners. They are still enthousiastic about everything and will find ways to circumnavigate the odds of sub standard tools, poor sharpening technique and wood from the big box store. That's how we all started, and it didn't kill us.


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## kostello (4 Nov 2013)

nathandavies":aiin7i7k said:


> I once watched a chippy i'd worked with quite a bit fit an internal corner piece of skirting, using an angle grinder to cut and shape it, I think he'd noticed my early tool snobbery and was proving a point. once fitted it looked better than a lot of skirting i'd seen. It's not what you've got it's how you use them.
> 
> nathan




I almost always use a grinder with a sanding disc to cope internal corners......its so much quicker


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## Graham Orm (4 Nov 2013)

kostello":gcypqodm said:


> nathandavies":gcypqodm said:
> 
> 
> > I once watched a chippy i'd worked with quite a bit fit an internal corner piece of skirting, using an angle grinder to cut and shape it, I think he'd noticed my early tool snobbery and was proving a point. once fitted it looked better than a lot of skirting i'd seen. It's not what you've got it's how you use them.
> ...



Noted :wink:


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## No skills (4 Nov 2013)

Well then, I hope Andy hasn't been put off posting future findings/thought after this rather strange clusterfuck of a thread.

:shock:


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## AndyT (4 Nov 2013)

I'm still here thanks, enjoying the discussion which has covered a good range of views. 

If anyone wants to send me a £50 chisel I could do a proper comparison.... ;-)


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## Carl P (4 Nov 2013)

So your 'waste' of an hour was all part of a cunning plan - the Prince (as in Machievelli) of Woodwork!

Cheerio,

Carl


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## Jason (4 Nov 2013)

Corneel":1u2t9zfz said:


> The chisel under test had a remarkable piece of steel with a lousy handle. A handle can be made (rougly) by any beginner though. So afterall, not the best choice for a cash strapped beginner, but better then nothing. Holding out for some Aldi chisels might be a better bet.



Rehandling is an interesting idea, but you'd be at the mercy of the tang of course. Plus we don't know what the tempering is like.

You might be looking at a lot of work for a not very good, if impressively flat, chisel. Assuming that they're consistently flat.


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## MIGNAL (5 Nov 2013)

Like I said. It's just a chisel. No need to get upset about it. Use it. Abuse it. 
Thankfully someone has taken the trouble to do a review of a piece of rubbish. The piece of rubbish turned out to 'cut wood'. It's not a big deal. For the life of me I can't think why that should upset people. 
Can you?


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## bugbear (5 Nov 2013)

MIGNAL":2j7mvyfa said:


> Like I said. It's just a chisel. No need to get upset about it. Use it. Abuse it.
> Thankfully someone has taken the trouble to do a review of a piece of rubbish. The piece of rubbish turned out to 'cut wood'. It's not a big deal. For the life of me I can't think why that should upset people.
> Can you?



It's irrational, I agree, but experience shows it to be common.

BugBear


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## Noggsy (5 Nov 2013)

Andy, thanks for an informative and useful review.

Now, if you could only find a sharpening stone in Poundland and review that, I wouldn't need to look outside tonight


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## Kalimna (5 Nov 2013)

Andy - very interesting review. Though I have purchased tools that are in excess of Poundlands prices, I do so for aesthetic (and to an extent, sentimental) reasons. I also fail to see how such a review of a, essentially useful, tool can b met with derision of either the review or the tool itself.
Also, if you are serious Andy, I have a couple of Blue Spruce chisels that may serve as an interesting comparison. I would, however, want them back!

Cheers,
Adam


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## Corneel (5 Nov 2013)

Jason":2hwdoj5h said:


> Corneel":2hwdoj5h said:
> 
> 
> > The chisel under test had a remarkable piece of steel with a lousy handle. A handle can be made (rougly) by any beginner though. So afterall, not the best choice for a cash strapped beginner, but better then nothing. Holding out for some Aldi chisels might be a better bet.
> ...



A block of wood with a hole in one end is a handle. Maybe ease the edges a bit with some sandpaper.

The toolsnobs overhere should live for a while in a third world country and observe what can be done with Cumquats tools.

I am firmly in the toolsnob category myself. :lol:


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2013)

Corneel":3p6k5qa5 said:


> .....
> A block of wood with a hole in one end is a handle. Maybe ease the edges a bit with some sandpaper....


Pieces of ash sapling make perfect handles with a hole already in place.


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## Jason (5 Nov 2013)

> A block of wood with a hole in one end is a handle. Maybe ease the edges a bit with some sandpaper. Tool snob.



Oh. And there was me thinking the mechanical join between handle and chisel might be of some interest. So the new handle stays on. Tangs designed to fit a moulded plastic handle often being very different to those intended for wooden handles.

You know, I'm really not sure not gushing over a chisel whose handle is a poor fit and falls apart on the third use makes me a tool snob. Even if it is commendably flat.


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## bugbear (5 Nov 2013)

We used to use a sharpened nail. Chisel? Luxury!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Yorkshiremen_sketch

BugBear


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## Corneel (5 Nov 2013)

You're clearly overthinking this tang business, Jason. It's most probably a straight round bit of steel with some indentations. Drill a hole slightly undersize and hammer it onto the chisel. 

And yes you are a toolsnob. Just like all of us. Man, I've watched furnjture makers in India Vietnam and Cambodja. They don't even have anything resembling a workbench.


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## woodbrains (5 Nov 2013)

Hello,

I've seen homeless people eat from dustbins, so am I a food snob? Citing extremes which are outside expected parameters, cannot be used to define a point of view.

Expecting a tool to correctly perform to certain criteria is not tool snobbery.

Those craftsmen from the Far East are underprivileged and are doing the best they can with little. But their best is hampered by the poor working conditions and poor tools. I don't think hampering us in a similar way, is a sensible solution, neither is expecting their work to equal ours, which sadly it cannot, though not through lack of skil. My tools are quite ordinary, though tuned and looked after very well. I, admittedly have too many, but I don't think I can be acused of snobbery. In fact I reall don't like ostentation in tools. A beautiful tool for me is one that performs everything I need of it and no more. Fancy handles, shiny plating and engraving etc. is lost on me. A well made chisel, properly tempered, no machine marks, fine bevels, flat back polished an inch or so back from the poiny end, equally sharp, and an ash handle is a thing of beauty and the minimum you should expect from a tool. Also, the most you should want IMHO. A chisel with some, but not all of these is defective, so not considered as worth having, since I only require the fundamentals.

Mike.


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## Corneel (5 Nov 2013)

That's how I like my chisels too. I would add, preferably laminated. 

But I don't equate some machinemarks or thick side bevels or a plastic handle to "defective". That's nonsence.


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## MMUK (5 Nov 2013)




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## Jason (5 Nov 2013)

I'm not sure it's 100% literary, but I'll take the tool snob moniker in the spirit it was meant. Which obviously wasn't mean spirited.

I don't much see the point of thick side bevels. Other than to make it look a bit like a bevelled edge chisel, which I presume sold for a premium back in the day.

Neither do I have a problem with a plastic handle. I'm personally very fond of some footprint chisels with bright red plastic handles in my keep. But I do have a problem with a poorly fitting plastic handle and one that reportedly breaks far too easily. I think it's the breaking and the bad fit that puts me off.


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2013)

Jason":pck2yph6 said:


> .. But I do have a problem with a poorly fitting plastic handle and one that reportedly breaks far too easily.


Yebbut he did say he bought it as a sacrificial chisel (bricks and nails involved) so that's fine. Presumably a posh one would have got a bit wrecked too, especially if it had a wooden handle.
It seems LN socket chisels regularly shed their handles, as they haven't found a way of fixing them yet. Luckily they supply replacement handles, which would be very good of them except you have to buy them!


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## AndyT (5 Nov 2013)

Jacob":1a5ax4ic said:


> Yebbut he did say he bought it as a sacrificial chisel (bricks and nails involved) so that's fine!



Not quite right...I actually said, right at the start,

"I bought this - purely for research, and for your benefit"

and I think I've had my money's worth!


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## iNewbie (5 Nov 2013)

Jacob":3b3xb4y3 said:


> Jason":3b3xb4y3 said:
> 
> 
> > .. But I do have a problem with a poorly fitting plastic handle and one that reportedly breaks far too easily.
> ...



Materials and Workmanship are guaranteed for the life of the tool. LN stand behind their product and their customer service is exemplary. Contact customer services in Maine and I'd be surprised if they didn't ship you a new one. They went above and beyond for me on an issue and I'd not even bought it new!


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## Jason (5 Nov 2013)

Jacob":2z0l3p3i said:


> It seems LN socket chisels regularly shed their handles, as they haven't found a way of fixing them yet...



Hold up. LN chisels are intentionally based on a Stanley design that's much used and highly regarded. It seems that hundreds of thousands of woodworkers over the last century actually appreciate the benefits (presumably superior balance, robustness and ease of repair) over the inconvenience of needing a squirt of hairspray.

I'm not sure the poundland chisel has yet achieved that kind of credential.

Though Jason suspects Jacob already knows this.


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## Corneel (5 Nov 2013)

AndyT":3b4mb74k said:


> "I bought this - purely for research, and for your benefit"
> 
> and I think I've had my money's worth!




:lol:


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## Graham Orm (5 Nov 2013)

Great thread Andy :wink: All good fun.


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## woodbrains (5 Nov 2013)

Hello,

Rough grinding on the flat side means it cannot be sharpened without a lot of effort to remove the coarseness. Bevels on a bevel edged chisel should be fine enough to at least give sight lines for accurate joinery and preferably fine enough for dovetails and the like. These two things are not a lot to ask in a tool which should have them and IS defective without. I cannot use them without doing what the manufacturers should have done.

Having one or two good characteristics does not make a chisel useful if those that are lacking prevents the tool to be used fully. Even a cheap chisel such as the one being discussed must have at least a couple of these characteristics, otherwise it would not be recognisable as a chisel. But just having enough to be accurately described as a chisel, does not make it useful, I'm afraid, as a chisel. It seems the only good points of this example were 1 it was made of steel and 2 its back was flat. Not enough of the mere few necessary characteristics a chisel should have, especially considering the flat back issue is moot due to the coarse grinding preventing proper sharpening. The plastic handle was utterly defective, and although a good plastic handle would not be a complete disaster, it would likely be no less expensive to make than a simple wooden one of some lowly, but eminently suitable variety such as ash or hornbeam.

Regarding the LN socket handles; that method of affixing a handle is actually superb. However, the new Stanley sweetheart chisels they are based on are not quite good enough to make them a good but, either. They are extremely well machined, they look and feel superb, the steel is good and can be sharpened, the handles are great, the backs are extremely flat and very smooth. The shoulder is virtually un breakable because of the differential hardening and tempering. Everything I need except the bevels are not fine enough. Spoilt for a hap'eth of tar. Even mid priced tools are not necessarily a good bet, either. Would I pay double for a LN to get a tool with the last missing desirable feature; absolutely, if I had the money to spend. Correct tools are important. As it is, I will eventually regrind the Stanley's. #-o 

Mike.


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2013)

AndyT":2zd261xa said:


> Jacob":2zd261xa said:
> 
> 
> > Yebbut he did say he bought it as a sacrificial chisel (bricks and nails involved) so that's fine!
> ...


No Grayorm said it. I presume yours is still OK and doing fine woodwork on a daily basis. :lol:


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2013)

woodbrains":v5qnz2ot said:


> ...
> Regarding the LN socket handles; that method of affixing a handle is actually superb.


Except they drop off, which is why they sell spare handles. I've never had a handle drop off any chisel of mine. I'm sure you are right though - their handle fixing is actually superb, except for the dropping off-ness tendency. No doubt the MKIV model will remedy this.


> .... Correct tools are important. ...


It's that word again - "correct" :lol:

To cut to the chase - Mike are you seriously saying that you couldn't do "fine woodwork" with this cheapo chisel? If not why not? Are you a beginner? - in which case just stick with it - you'll get there in the end, it's not about the tools.


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## AndyT (5 Nov 2013)

Just to clarify - the Poundland chisel may look like it has rough grinding marks but they are not deep. I spent only a few minutes on sharpening to a mirror finish. This may mean that the steel is not as hard as on proper chisels. The ding in the back suggests the same thing. Another reason why I was surprised how good the edge was and how it stayed sharp through the brief test I gave it. 
Bevels are another matter but we have already had a very long discussion which there is no need to repeat. Suffice it to say that it's hard to find a modern chisel without some bevelling, but modern general purpose chisels are thicker than the sort of delicate tool I showed in the comparison photos. 
For the sort of work I showed in the original post I can't see that it makes any difference whether there are bevels or not.
If I wanted to use this chisel for dovetails where there was no room to skew the tool I would grind the corners off a bit.


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## Graham Orm (5 Nov 2013)

The version of the chisel I 'tested to destruction' was put through a somewhat more rigorous test than Andy's. The handle shattered as if it were toffee into several pieces. I was using the chisel to chop out a joist at an awkward angle so wanted to get it done quickly, which meant using a big hammer. I dare say a more expensive chisel would have shown battle scars but I'd have been surprised if it had simply disintegrated. The tang was about an inch long as I remember and pointed, so not much use for any form of wooden handle thereafter.


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2013)

Jacob":9x2ty7w8 said:


> woodbrains":9x2ty7w8 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Come to think - LN are the only ones who sell spare handles for their own chisels (could be wrong). Very clever of them to design in a fault _and sell_ the remedy!
Never give a sucker an even break. :lol: (WC Fields)
The cheaper remedy for lose wooden socket handles is to wet them and let them rust in. I know this from struggling to remove one from an old chisel.


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## Corneel (6 Nov 2013)

So Mike, you deem a firmer chisel defective, because it is a firmer? That's real tool snobbery!

I don't really want to defend Andy's chisel. From what I read the steel is abit too soft and the handle seems to be really rubish like Grayorm reports. Btw, aren't all tang's about an inch long and pointed?

The problem with the LN sockets is, they are machined not forged like a real socket chisel. That makes the socket too smooth and regular.


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## iNewbie (6 Nov 2013)

Jacob":3a9vefl8 said:


> Jacob":3a9vefl8 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains":3a9vefl8 said:
> ...



Is it that they designed them that way - as Stanley did, or just your usual sh*t-stirring? 

I see you missed my earlier post about their exceptional customer service, how convenient. Though its not surprising... 

You only see one reason as to _why_ they sell the handles, and thats because they're designed to be faulty? LOL 

Um....some people damage themselves - which doesn't come under waranty and you can _swap_ handles' - thats why they offer a pairing handle. Now I don't think its down to them to supply BOTH types of handle and not everyone wants both, but its an option... But you keep spinning your tedious sh*te on these makers, Jacob*ll*cks.


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## Noggsy (6 Nov 2013)

Guys, strong debate is interesting to watch and sometimes even informative, but there's a bit of a tendency at the moment to make things excessively personal. For what it's worth, that's when it stops being fun for me and in my opinion, drags this fantastic forum down a bit. Attack the point, not the person or I think there's a risk of this becoming a less pleasant forum and driving people away.


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## bugbear (6 Nov 2013)

Noggsy":2fz0ep65 said:


> I think there's a risk of this becoming a less pleasant forum and driving people away.



It's already happened.

For example, Karl Holtey joined, but for "some reason" left fairly soon afterwards.

A loss, I feel.
http://www.holteyplanes.com/

BugBear


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## Harbo (6 Nov 2013)

Yes Karl and many others including several of the North American Tool Makers.
And not forgetting Alf.

Blown away by the attacks from certain Luddites!

Rod


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## woodbrains (7 Nov 2013)

Corneel":2t4iay9v said:


> So Mike, you deem a firmer chisel defective, because it is a firmer? That's real tool snobbery.



Hello,

If you read my earlier posts, I actually expressed a preference for the second hand Footprint firmer, over a new, cheap, defective tool. Also, if I want a firmer, which have quite different uses to bevel edged chisels (I own a set as well as BE chisels) I would not expect them to have bevels, but I would expect the BE ones to have good ones. Cheeses, it is not tool snobbery to expect the damn things to work as they should. If you think it is, then this would explain why tool quality went so badly down hill that most tools made were defective, until recent manufacturers got their acts together.

Mike.


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## PalletPaul (7 Nov 2013)

I picked up a set of these from tool station... At first they were ok but like stated length and handle not the best but as I rarely use them for anything tough they've lasted a while.


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## Corneel (8 Nov 2013)

It is a firmer with an edge decoration. That doesn't make it defective. Nor do the machinemarks when the don't effect the edge. 

There are plenty of usefull chisels on the market that don't suit my taste. That doesn't make them defective but it doeg make me a toolsnob.


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## Jacob (8 Nov 2013)

woodbrains":2xzmqyel said:


> ..... Cheeses, it is not tool snobbery to expect the damn things to work as they should. ......


But in what way do they not work? What could you _not_ do with this cheap chisel? I've asked this several times but all you do is huff and puff! 
How would it show in the finished product? Could you say "this has been done with a cheap chisel"?
The point of this thread (I think!) is not that they are ideal, but just that they are not as bad or unusable as some would say.


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## nanscombe (8 Nov 2013)

Similarly, how many times do we see people buy a cheap plane, strip it down, (re) sharpen it and see it working *almost* as well as an expensive one does out of the box.

If the handle of a cheap chisel splits after belting it a couple of times with a hammer / mallet .. quell surprise. Perhaps they are simply meant for paring wood by hand rather than hogging out lots of wood.


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## AndyT (8 Nov 2013)

Jacob":qh6pphgq said:


> The point of this thread (I think!) is not that they are ideal, but just that they are not as bad or unusable as some would say.



That is exactly right. 

Faults - a bit small, not well balanced, odd handle which might break easily. Probably made in sweatshop conditions.
Virtues - easy to sharpen and it successfully cut hard and soft wood on the tasks it was used for. Cheap.


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## Jason (8 Nov 2013)

Less usable once the handle has broken off though.

That's the rub for me. If the handle was up to some chopping or even if the tang was suitable for a user made replacement then I'd agree that what we had here was a usable, if not ideal, tool.

As it is though, it's a chisel that can get to work quickly (assuming that they're consistently concave/flat), but that might last you one or two jobs. That's a hefty caveat.


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## andypa (8 Nov 2013)

I bought a set of cheap chisels for a few pounds. They had clear plastic handles which, when left out in the sun, went all soft and wobbly :lol: Anyway, they sharpened up nicely and were used repairing old woodwork full of nails. Every chisel found a nail.(as expected). Job done, now thrown them away.


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## Drudgeon (9 Nov 2013)

This thread is a great example of why you do not nessasarily need to spend shed loads on tools, more so with hand tools than power tools, over the years I've worked with a few different apprentices, and I have made the point many times that very expensive tools that are not maintained/sharpened are far less effective than cheap tools that have been well sharpened. 

I am a tool lover and would spend a lottery win on tools that I didn't really need, but would love to have, when you can afford the tools that you really want (not need) then it's a huge bonus, but it does not nessasarily mean you produce better work. 

Fair play to the OP for going out of his way to prove a point. =D>


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## Graham Orm (14 Nov 2013)

I doubt if I'm spoiling anyone's bargain here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silverline-Wo ... 1249880101 Eye protection is a MUST!


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Nov 2013)

There's somewhere close to me selling sets of 4 Stanley 5002's (the blue handled ones) + oilstone for £16.50!!!


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## AndyT (14 Nov 2013)

phil.p":3ot95rgt said:


> There's somewhere close to me selling sets of 4 Stanley 5002's (the blue handled ones) + oilstone for £16.50!!!



I think that's the same as I showed in the group shot back on page 1 isn't it?

If it is, that's excellent value, whether s/h or new old stock.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Nov 2013)

Yes, it's the same. And they're brand new. Shame I've already got about fifty or sixty chisels.


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## No skills (14 Nov 2013)

When one of these cheap chisels loose their handle you could make a Sellers's style router plane with it.


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