# Cooking Beef at 55 degrees.



## Bm101 (12 Dec 2016)

I'm not a great one for the telly tbh. Nothing snobby or intellectual, (I'm a windowcleaner!), most of the time it just bores the a*** out of me. Happened to walk in to the front room yesterday morning and Tom Kerridge was doing one of them Sunday morning cookery shows. From the little I know of fine food and the world of Chefs, when I've seen him doing cooking on TV I think 'My God that looks mustard'. No nonsense food but done really really well.
So anyway, he's cooking a bit of sirloin beef. He coats it in black treacle and water and lets it soak for a day or so. Seals the outside in a pan then whacks it in the oven at 55 degrees. 45 minutes he says. Shadddap I'm thinking. But you can leave it in as long as you need he says _because you will never overcook it at 55 degrees_. My jaw drops a little. Then it sinks in. I've been overcooking meat my whole life. (Apart from steak  ) 
I also picked up a tip or two on roasties and yorkies. 
Just the four of us for Christmas Dinner this year, family coming over later etc. I was after a goose, Mrs wanted turkey. Sod that. I'm going up my local Butchers to get some sirloin. 55 degrees. I've had a google and realised there's a whole world of info about this and I never had a clue.

Reason for posting was I know there's plenty of foodies on here. Whaddaya think? Experiences to share? Not long now!  God I love cooking Christmas dinner. Bottle of nice red on the go. Bit of music. Everyone's happy. 
So come on! lets have your tips!
Garlic carrots?
Port Gravy!

Woop Woop!


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## timbo614 (12 Dec 2016)

Um, 55 degrees isn't very hot. Not hot enough to kill bugs (requires 60 deg. ) if there are any.


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## NazNomad (12 Dec 2016)

The collagen that makes up most of the connective tissue of meats start to break down and dissolve at around the same temperature that bacteria like E coli die in numbers deemed safe - also known as the pasteurisation temperature. That is around 55C - cooked at that temperature for given amounts of time meat can be relied on to get less tough and more healthy. It still holds oxygen, and its juices do not evaporate much: so more flavour and colour will be retained.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... es-lowered

I wouldn't worry about killing bugs in beef, it doesn't have many that are harmful. Improper handling is more likely to give you the squits than if it's still got a pulse.


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## Bm101 (12 Dec 2016)

Interesting Naz. I'd be very careful feeding my kids slow cooked chicken, beef on the otherhand.... I cook my steaks.... well I don't cook them I sear the sides. Blue doesn't cover it and I've never once been ill. I'm still on for beef sirloin Christmas day.


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## timbo614 (12 Dec 2016)

I eat Rare-ish steak too but always though the outside had to be heated for a short period to kill off any surface contamination due to handling? Also 55 is not far above the sometimes reported heat-wave temps in some places! I'm sure I can remember 52 in the sun somewhere?


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Dec 2016)

Slow cooked doesn't mean uncooked. I do all roast meats slowly, some slower than others. Much as I prefer steaks on the rare side, I've never been keen on roasts (certainly not duck or lamb) done like it - especially when the meat is used the day after, cold. I get some wide foil, parcel up the joint and stick it in for about eight hours at about 70c - 75c. Then I open it up, drain the liquid off (unscorched, it makes better gravy) and return to the oven at a high temperature for half an hour or so to crisp the outside. Freshly ground Chinese five spice for pork, a paste of 1/3 chilli or cayenne, 1/3 garlic and 1/3 anchovies for lamb (which is "speared" and the holes stuffed), and a tbs of hot horseradish, a tbs of English mustard and a tbs of garlic for beef.


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## Racers (12 Dec 2016)

Slow cooked shoulder of lamb is wonderful.

Pete


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## Fitzroy (12 Dec 2016)

Seen Heston seal in a vacuum bag and cook in water bath at similar temp, although 60 degC I think. 60 degC is also min temp for hot water supplies due to legionella regs. So guess most of the nasties die about those temps. 

F.


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## Cheshirechappie (12 Dec 2016)

Might be wise to do a practice run before unleashing it on a special occasion. It usually takes me two or three goes to really nail a new recipe or technique.

Mind you, I might just be a damn awful cook....


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## rafezetter (13 Dec 2016)

Bm101":1nscdkl7 said:


> I'm not a great one for the telly tbh. Nothing snobby or intellectual, (I'm a windowcleaner!), most of the time it just bores the a*** out of me. Happened to walk in to the front room yesterday morning and Tom Kerridge was doing one of them Sunday morning cookery shows. From the little I know of fine food and the world of Chefs, when I've seen him doing cooking on TV I think 'My God that looks mustard'. No nonsense food but done really really well.
> So anyway, he's cooking a bit of sirloin beef. He coats it in black treacle and water and lets it soak for a day or so. Seals the outside in a pan then whacks it in the oven at 55 degrees. 45 minutes he says. Shadddap I'm thinking. But you can leave it in as long as you need he says _because you will never overcook it at 55 degrees_. My jaw drops a little. Then it sinks in. I've been overcooking meat my whole life. (Apart from steak  )
> I also picked up a tip or two on roasties and yorkies.
> Just the four of us for Christmas Dinner this year, family coming over later etc. I was after a goose, Mrs wanted turkey. Sod that. I'm going up my local Butchers to get some sirloin. 55 degrees. I've had a google and realised there's a whole world of info about this and I never had a clue.
> ...



Sounds good - should I bring some wine?


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## gregmcateer (13 Dec 2016)

My brother likes a bit of cooking. He's been experimenting with a 'sous vide' he bought on tinternet. Gets some amazing results - very juicy meat and flash fries steaks in, well, a flash.

It's how the restaurants do it, so they can prep the steaks in advance, then just brown them in the pan seconds before serving. Here's a link with some info on it, if you scroll down a bit;

(I've no connection with this supplier - just found it as a useful link);

https://anovaculinary.com/what-is-sous-vide/?gclid=CIn0y6eL8NACFdW4GwodrYYEIg

HTH

Greg


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

I have seen a fillet of beef rolled round, wrapped well in clingfilm and cooked this way, I forget now who did it. The film was taken off, the cylinder of beef cut into rounds then the ends oiled and put on a griddle to sear.


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## Blister (13 Dec 2016)

A friend of mine regularly ate blue / rare steak until the day he went for a poo and had something hanging out of his bum , Trip to A&E for the removal of a 6 foot long tape worm :shock: 

He now has his steak well done , took him some time before he even went near steak again


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Dec 2016)

Have a look at information surrounding the concept of sous vide. It's what all the top chefs use (or the oven equivalent). Most people don't realise that top chefs have been using this "secret" for decades. The idea has already been mooted here which is that if you keep the temperature high enough to take out the bugs but low enough to prevent the proteins from becoming "tough" then you have the perfect compromise because the meat remains tender but safe. 

A Sous vide is nothing more than a water bath kept at a very accurate temperature. The meat is sealed in plastic (like shrink wrap type heat sealing) so the water doesn't touch it and left for the amount of time it takes for the very low heat to penetrate through to the centre of the meat. The upper cooking time almost doesn't matter (as you say) because it will never be overcooked. The lower cooking time is important or the heat wont penetrate. The cooking time/temperature is therefore dependent on two things: The thickness of the joint and the nature of the meat ie which bugs do you need to kill. Obviously in chicken and pork, the naturally native bugs are significantly more virulent for food poisoning than in beef or lamb, both which can be eaten rare (beef and lamb) or raw (beef ie steak tartare). Chicken and pork can be slow cooked and benefit brilliantly from it (by slow cooked I mean in a sous vide at extremely low temperatures) but the criticality of cooking all the way to the middle of the joint is matched only by your desire to not be throwing up for 48 hours 

In the sous vide universe, there are tables documenting the correct temperatures for a given thickness of meat and fish types as guides. A whole salmon done in a sous vide is incidentally, one of the most delicious things it's possible to pass through your cake-hole


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## sunnybob (13 Dec 2016)

I spent over 20 years of my life installing and repairing catering equipment. I have known many instances of shops being closed by environmental health because they were not keeping food at a temperature EXCEEDING 75c. 

I had to testify once because they wanted to close a shop as their holding display cabinet could not reach this temp.
The best known chicken chain who's name consists of only three letters insist their chicken reaches 83c before it can be sold.

I wont eat any meats that have obviously been undercooked.


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## AJB Temple (13 Dec 2016)

I am a fan of slow cooking and SV too. Beef is perfectly OK raw (steak tartare) if prepped from a fresh cut fillet as there can be no bacteria on the inside and this is why a blue steak poses no heath risk - outside is seared which kills and surface bacteria (but doesn't seal anything in - that is a myth) and the inside is clean. 

A handy tool to have is a Thermapen. Instant read temperature probe. This will give you super reliable temperature control. 

Sous Vide steak works very well for BBQ. Meat vac packed and slow cooked to rare, then briefly shown a hot BBQ. I use a Big Green Egg when I am feeling in the mood for some charcoal smoky flavour, or a Weber gas barbecue if I am in a hurry. 

Slow cooking a rolled Sirloin will work very well for Christmas. I have one in the fridge now with fat larded around the top and bottom, rolled and ready to go! It was meant for Sunday lunch but I got sidetracked. 

It also works well to slow cook a chicken in the oven at low temperature. I often put a chicken in with the oven turned down to 80 degrees (use an over thermometer so you know what is going on) and cook for six to eight hours. Check the juices run clear and it will be perfect meat: cooked, juicy, not tough and dry and stringy. No need to rest as it is already at the right temperature.


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## Keith 66 (13 Dec 2016)

My other half is a food safety officer,we would not eat sou vide at any price no matter who cooked it.
Giles coren had it right when he commented on a sou vide pigeon breast dish he was served, "an awful raw rubbery purple schlong swimming in insipid sauce".


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

Yes. Chicken cooked slowly with a little sumac and a lemon ...
It is the fascination with rare meat that can cause problems - one TV chef even went so far as to say pork should be served pink, although traditionally it was well cooked not because of bacterial contamination but because of parasites, which are uncommon now.
If Giles' pigeon was cooked it wouldn't have been purple - if you are to eat undercooked meat it doesn't much matter by which method it is undercooked - there is no digestive requirement for any protein to cooked. If there were the slightest risk involved in sous vide in a commercial environment I'd have thought it would be banned - the powers that be can't see a bandwagon without jumping on it.
The comments about the bacteria being on the outside of the meat is of course correct, this is why the bad cases of food poisoning tend to come from minced beef products and sausages - it's all mashed together. The word botulism comes from botulus - Latin for sausage.
As an aside - I remember an interview on the radio with Prof. Sir hugh Pennington concerning a government hygiene hand washing initiative where he said that actually it made little difference, because every major food poisoning outbreak in his career had been caused by bad meat storage conditions. The last outbreak I remember when I was working in that environment some years ago wasn't meat at all - it was Spanish lettuce - there was drought in Spain so the nice clean Spanish farmers decided to water the things with raw sewage. Nothing much was made of it - mustn't offend the EU, must we?


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

Blister":22ekdq1v said:


> A friend of mine regularly ate blue / rare steak until the day he went for a poo and had something hanging out of his bum , Trip to A&E for the removal of a 6 foot long tape worm :shock:
> 
> He now has his steak well done , took him some time before he even went near steak again



My grandmother told me that she remembered in the 1930s people being starved and meals being put close in front of them to try to temp the worm out for food. She didn't ever tell me whether it worked, though. It would be interesting to see how they knew that one was 6' - they break into tiny segments about 1/4" long.


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## whiskywill (13 Dec 2016)

phil.p":2z1isc1v said:



> The word botulism comes from botulus - Latin for sausage.



Close but no prize. The Latin for sausage is farcimen, from which the word farce, meaning forcemeat or stuffing, is derived. A botulum is a type of spiced sausage.


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## whiskywill (13 Dec 2016)

Bm101":24gve1qq said:


> So anyway, he's cooking a bit of sirloin beef. He coats it in black treacle and water and lets it soak for a day or so. Seals the outside in a pan then whacks it in the oven at 55 degrees. 45 minutes he says.



Is this time for a sirloin steak? Surely a joint of beef wouldn't get up to 55 degrees at the centre in just 45 minutes.


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## Random Orbital Bob (13 Dec 2016)

No...what he's talking about is a joint of Sirloin. Sirloin steaks start out life as a ruddy great slab of meat (a joint). Butchers or indeed me at my gaff, take a knife and slice the required thickness of steak. But it is equally and frankly deliciously good to simply roast the entire sirloin joint and then thinly carve slices once cooked.

It beats the absolute pants off topside or silverside or indeed any other cut of beef with the exception of prime rib, rump or of course fillet which is the most expensive cut. Roasting a sirloin is an extremely expensive way to go but it is seriously delicious. Modern supermarket packaging and meat marketing, has people thinking that topside et al are roasting joints but they're just not. They're leathery and tough and require long slow cooking to tenderise. The advantage is of course that they're cheap. But to enjoy roast beef "properly" you just cant beat a joint of sirloin.


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## Blister (13 Dec 2016)

phil.p":1vt2di9t said:


> Blister":1vt2di9t said:
> 
> 
> > A friend of mine regularly ate blue / rare steak until the day he went for a poo and had something hanging out of his bum , Trip to A&E for the removal of a 6 foot long tape worm :shock:
> ...




The hospital made him drink several ltrs of some special fluid that killed it and out came a tape worm , ``yuck


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

Swallowing one used to be a method of dieting. :shock:
... cheaper than a gastric band for the NHS, I suppose ...


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## Sheffield Tony (13 Dec 2016)

I think it is worth remembering that cookery fashions, and particularly TV chef tastes, are set by the constraints of restaurant cookery. They need to get fresh ingredients onto a plate and served in less time than it takes an overprivileged food critic to get tetchy. So things that can be quickly cooked - fish, nearly raw meat - or stuff that can sit indefinitely sous vide (AKA boil in the bag) are a boon. The lovely caramelised flavours of a slow roast or braise are more of a problem to achieve without a lot of notice, or waste. Unfortunately for me, that's the sort of food I like. Lots of flavour, doesn't need to be soft, I still have most of my teeth


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## bugbear (13 Dec 2016)

I did a little research into domestic Sous Vide equipment.

The best buy at the moment is from Lakeland:

http://www.lakeland.co.uk/31573/Lakeland-Sous-Vide-Wand

This is a OEM version of the Gourmia GSV130

http://www.gourmia.com/item.asp?item=10021

Amazon reviews here:

https://www.amazon.com/Gourmia-Digital- ... B017HX16FA

BugBear


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## lurker (13 Dec 2016)

I watched this the other week

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vrwj8

Highly recommended


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## sunnybob (13 Dec 2016)

timbo614":1vwnbmjp said:


> Also 55 is not far above the sometimes reported heat-wave temps in some places! I'm sure I can remember 52 in the sun somewhere?



This was my side porch thermometer a couple years ago.





I could have just left the beef on the coffee table!

That particular week even I was hot enough, so at 10 pm I decided to cool off in the pool. After a while I realised I was NOT cooling off. Checked the pool temp and it was at 38c, which is hotter than most people run their showers at.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

whiskywill":ju1m2xu9 said:


> phil.p":ju1m2xu9 said:
> 
> 
> > The word botulism comes from botulus - Latin for sausage.
> ...


  I was anticipating a visit from the pedantry police, there.


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## Bm101 (13 Dec 2016)

bugbear":17vym19p said:


> I did a little research into domestic Sous Vide equipment.
> 
> The best buy at the moment is from Lakeland:
> 
> ...



I was looking at this one today thanks to Gregs earlier link...  Sat on a roof above Heddon Street (all restaurants) looking at a sous vide app. Ahh the gentle irony. Wondering if my Mrs would like one for Christmas lol. She will see through that malarkey better than the clear juices of a perfectly cooked chicken! :| Hmmmm. *plot plot plot*
https://anovaculinary.com/anova-precision-cooker/


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## woodpig (13 Dec 2016)

This all sounds like a large advertising billboard (hoarding) seen near a steak house in the US:

Sushi: still your best bet for intestinal worms.

I prefer my food cooked. :wink: I do wonder what percentage of food poisoning is down to under cooked food ...

http://dba-oracle.blogspot.co.uk/2009/0 ... eight.html


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## bugbear (13 Dec 2016)

Good news everybody! The FSA has done research into pathogen death (or not) at the temperatures involved in Sous Vide cooking.

The conclusion of the research is that it the FSA is now absolutely certain that it *doesn't know*.

It's a Donald Rumesfeld "Known Unknown". :lol: 

https://www.food.gov.uk/strategiceviden ... 4dfs102028

BugBear


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

woodpig":3e3repsn said:


> This all sounds like a large advertising billboard (hoarding) seen near a steak house in the US:
> 
> Sushi: still your best bet for intestinal worms.
> 
> ...


Apparently much fish is frozen first to kill parasites.


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## Bm101 (13 Dec 2016)

After Will's post I thought I'd better check my memory! 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/treac ... with_35837 


I entered into cautious bilateral discussions with the Mrs and it appears no, she doesn't want either nuclear warheads placed near her international borders or a sous vide for Christmas. As an initial entry appeasement policy it appears I can have one for my Birthday. In April. Apparently international funding would be better directed toward funding a joint mutually aggressive national border expansion policy and 'we need the money for the loft conversion ya bleedin' eeejit'.
Balls.

 

Ah well, Sirloin in the oven it is then.


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## llangatwgnedd (13 Dec 2016)

> A friend of mine regularly ate blue / rare steak until the day he went for a poo and had something hanging out of his bum , Trip to A&E for the removal of a 6 foot long tape worm :shock:
> 
> He now has his steak well done , took him some time before he even went near steak again



Watched a programme once about tapeworms and if red meat is not cooked through, eggs of the worm will still be alive and thats one way they get into your system.


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## Woodchips2 (13 Dec 2016)

We like beef brisket which I cook in a slow cooker without any liquid. Just season the meat and stick it in the heated cooker on high for 2 hours and then on low for maybe another hour or two. Comes out succulent and not tasting like a cheap cut at all. Works equally as well with shoulder of pork or shoulder of lamb. Maybe it's the fattier cuts of meat that work for this no-fuss cooking.

Regards Keith


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## Rorschach (13 Dec 2016)

Woodchips2":plwnlhus said:


> We like beef brisket which I cook in a slow cooker without any liquid. Just season the meat and stick it in the heated cooker on high for 2 hours and then on low for maybe another hour or two. Comes out succulent and not tasting like a cheap cut at all. Works equally as well with shoulder of pork or shoulder of lamb. Maybe it's the fattier cuts of meat that work for this no-fuss cooking.
> 
> Regards Keith



I do that with odd cuts of lamb that we get from the farm. Season and throw them in the slow cooker for about 5 hours with a splash of water to get a bit of steam going. I then pull all the meat off the bone, de-fat the liquid that came out and then freeze the meat in the juices. When we want to eat it I warm it in the juices and thicken to make a delicious gravy, wonderful with mash and veggies.


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## whiskywill (14 Dec 2016)

phil.p":id7syv6e said:


> whiskywill":id7syv6e said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":id7syv6e said:
> ...



I am a pedantic pedant.  Actually, the information came from a book on Roman cookery that I have and I remembered farcimen so looked into it a bit further and got botulum.


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## AJB Temple (14 Dec 2016)

It is interesting how people have polarised views about food. I owned a restaurant for a while (I was speculating on the freehold) and as a keen cook I sometimes worked a few shifts. In general, older people, my parents included, insisted on beef being well done. Younger people and chefs (and I) consider this renders it inedible - but it is a good way of using up the worst pieces. 

Professional sous vide machines are indispensable as they help hugely with two things: getting food ready for rapid final cooking (eg searing a steak and serving); and consistency. My wife and I were just discussing this yesterday: how difficult it is to get really good beef in the UK now. We go to Japan most years and the beef and fish quality far surpasses produce that we can readily source in England. 

These days I am quite partial to long, slow smoking. In my case I use a Big Green Egg. 

Sushi, contrary to the post above, has very low risk if reputably sourced fish is used. Much of the fish used for Sushi is in the freezer within minutes of being caught and parasites killed by rapid temperature reduction and holding.


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## lurker (14 Dec 2016)

Beef tapeworm is pretty harmless
Pork on the other hand.......

Pork is not banned by faiths like the Jewish for nothing


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## DiscoStu (15 Dec 2016)

I've been longing for a Sous Vide. It's a very precise water bath that allows you to set temps to 1/10th of a degree. You can then cook steak perfectly. 56.5 is meant to be optimum. As the OP said you can't over cook it like that. However this is only for beef. Do not cook pork or chicken like this. It's safe to eat raw beef (Steak Tartare) but pork or chicken won't do you any favours so don't start cooking everything at 55 degrees!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SimonB (16 Dec 2016)

We sous vide a lot. My other half has chef training, although not a chef, and likes her gadgets and follows modern techniques. Flank steak and short rib are other favourites for normally unpopular cuts that benefit from slow cooking. I also do a mean pork belly (brine for 24 hours then cook for 36 hours).

However, if you're after a bit of a party piece and like your beef, have a look at Lomo al Trapo. You just need an open fire. Great for a family gathering or dinner party with a difference.


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## Harbo (16 Dec 2016)

I cook salmon in an own-made sous vide using a large pan, thermometer and a porous weight to keep the package under water. The salmon I seal in boil in the bags using a machine I bought from Lakeland.
Cook for 20 mins at 55 degrees.

Rod


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