# Fast dovetails



## Paul Chapman (15 Jan 2010)

:shock: :shock: http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/bl ... n+651.aspx

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## PeterBassett (15 Jan 2010)

Blimey...


----------



## head clansman (15 Jan 2010)

hi 

wow impressive , oh my god was that saw sharp or what . hc :wink:


----------



## jlawrence (15 Jan 2010)

I'd be happy to cut half blinds in 30 minutes never mind 6.5


----------



## Chems (15 Jan 2010)

Saw this the other day and I thought that the wood must be butter!


----------



## woodbloke (15 Jan 2010)

The few times that I've bothered with RC haven't impressed me at all and this is one of them. As always, it's nice soft, squashy white pine that he's using (for both bits I notice) but although the pins were well cut, they were poorly proportioned as the slope looked far greater than 1:6, which is what he ought to have set them out at...setting the apex of the pin at zero also looks wrong (at least in my eyes). The end of the tails were also far too close to the front of the joint...proper convention sets out the end of the socket board in quarters. On his, it looks like there's about 3mm which is far too little.

What is clever is that he did it less than 7 minutes...but why?.. apart from showing us that he's a bit of a smart ar&e. 

I'd like to see him do something like this properly using rock maple sides, correct 1:8 slopes on the pins that don't diminish to nothing (2mm is about right for adequate strength, which his won't have) and a decent bit of mahogany for the front. 

If you're impressed by the speed, crack on :wink:...if you're not, look elsewhere for best practice - Rob


----------



## SBJ (15 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":3vexntp2 said:


> The few times that I've bothered with RC haven't impressed me at all and this is one of them. As always, it's nice soft, squashy white pine that he's using (for both bits I notice) but although the pins were well cut, they were poorly proportioned as the slope looked far greater than 1:6, which is what he ought to have set them out at...setting the apex of the pin at zero also looks wrong (at least in my eyes). The end of the tails were also far too close to the front of the joint...proper convention sets out the end of the socket board in quarters. On his, it looks like there's about 3mm which is far too little.
> 
> What is clever is that he did it less than 7 minutes...but why?.. apart from showing us that he's a bit of a smart ar&e.
> 
> ...




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You've got to be joking, right?


----------



## Kalimna (15 Jan 2010)

Notwithstanding the structural/aesthetic/proportional issues you may have with this rather nippy video - would you recommend learning to cut dovetails both through and blind by using something like pine? Or would using hardwoods instill a greater degree of 'craftsmanship' for the complete DT Beginner (tm) (i.e. Myself)?

Your thoughts on a postcard, please,

Adam


p.s. for what it's worth, I thought it was an excellent taster of how do it.


----------



## woodbloke (15 Jan 2010)

SBJ":oytm29jw said:


> woodbloke":oytm29jw said:
> 
> 
> > The few times that I've bothered with RC haven't impressed me at all and this is one of them. As always, it's nice soft, squashy white pine that he's using (for both bits I notice) but although the pins were well cut, they were poorly proportioned as the slope looked far greater than 1:6, which is what he ought to have set them out at...setting the apex of the pin at zero also looks wrong (at least in my eyes). The end of the tails were also far too close to the front of the joint...proper convention sets out the end of the socket board in quarters. On his, it looks like there's about 3mm which is far too little.
> ...



No...deadly serious. This is _not_ the way to cut good dovetails. The impressive thing is the speed, everything else leaves me cold - Rob


----------



## eoinsgaff (15 Jan 2010)

Has anyone tried out the Rob Cosman saw?


----------



## SBJ (15 Jan 2010)

Cutting dovetails is no different to any other joint, it's about accurate marking out and then cutting/paring to the line. As for being a beginner - you hit the nail on the head - practise. How you go about it is a personal thing, some like to make projects involving dovetails, others go down the repitition route. Personally, i used to cut a simple dovetail from scrap as a way of warming up (like an athelete might stretch) before starting other work.

At the end of the day it's about being comfortable with the tools in your hand.


----------



## Alf (15 Jan 2010)

I love Rob Cosman madly*, but at best that's just a party piece. At worst I worry it could give neophyte's unrealistic expectations and put them off for life when they can't meet them. Not really one of RC's best uses of saw and video camera.

*Just resist, okay?


----------



## SBJ (15 Jan 2010)

Alf":2pgqgc8c said:


> but at best that's just a party piece.



i think that's the idea - a bit of fun. It's so easy to become anal about these things, it's important to have a bit of fun. Especially if its only a hobby.


----------



## David C (15 Jan 2010)

Yes, 
for the opposite end of the spectrum, my chisel use dvd goes significantly slower..........

David Charlesworth

http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk


----------



## SBJ (15 Jan 2010)

David C":39l40wpk said:


> Yes,
> for the opposite end of the spectrum, my chisel use dvd goes significantly slower..........
> 
> David Charlesworth
> ...



You're not wrong there! An interesting watch though (although it took me a couple of attempts before I worked out not to watch it late at night!). 

Anything in the pipeline DC?


----------



## jlawrence (15 Jan 2010)

To be fair Rob's dovetail DVD's go a lot slower as well.
I think with dovetails you've just got to practice and find a method which suits you - in my case a heck of a lot of practice 

Added:
I do have DC's courses on my wish list - whether swmbo will ever give permission is another matter.


----------



## JeremyM (15 Jan 2010)

I briefly handled the RC dovetail saw at Westonbirt last year. I liked it a lot and would be very happy with one. It is different to Adria/LN/Veritas the blade is a little longer and the brass back massive. The fine teeth at the toe did make starting easy with a nice length behind for continuing the cut. But not really at an affordable price in the uk for most and those who have put the practice in to learn how to saw by hand probably will gain little from the "starter teeth". 

RC's shop manual on through dovetails is good and well worth the money IMHO.

Jeremy


----------



## lurker (15 Jan 2010)

Chems":2gd77ncj said:


> Saw this the other day and I thought that the wood must be butter!



My thoughts were similar - Merican cheese wood with imitation growth rings.

To be honest although I'm bluddy hopeless at Dovetails, I bet if I spent a day praticing I could do that -repeating four more times & ending up all square is doubtful however


----------



## wizer (15 Jan 2010)

David C":2eelcny2 said:


> Yes,
> for the opposite end of the spectrum, my chisel use dvd goes significantly slower..........
> 
> David Charlesworth
> ...



David fwiw, I enjoyed RC's dovetailing procedure as shown on his DVD and the couple of times I've tried it, it made sense. But I also found your DVD very useful in learning how to _use _a chisel properly, with skill. The combination of both make my most favoured woodworking DVDs.


----------



## woodbloke (15 Jan 2010)

Alf":plx1wz22 said:


> I love Rob Cosman madly*, but at best that's just a party piece. At worst I worry it could give neophyte's unrealistic expectations and put them off for life when they can't meet them. Not really one of RC's best uses of saw and video camera.
> 
> *Just resist, okay?


Agreed Alf, it's a party piece, a bit fun. The problem is that people see this clip and think it's the right way to go about the business when clearly it's not. If RC slowed down a bit and did some serious stuff (maybe he does :duno: ) then what he does _would_ be a bit more believable. As it is, this is just clever tosh which doesn't take a lot of unravelling. 
I find that most of what he does seems to be centered around the 'speed,' or time element which to me at least seems a bit nonsensical. As hobbyist woodworkers the amount of frantic enery that he generates just seems a waste of effort, when to slow down and do the job properly would be far more meaningful - Rob


----------



## Paul Chapman (15 Jan 2010)

I think some of you are reading stuff into this that isn't really there. It all started with Frank Klausz who (for a laugh) did some very fast dovetails using a bow saw. The clip ended up on youtube (I think). Rob Cosman rose to the challenge and did some through dovetails even faster (also for a laugh). He has now produced these half-blind dovetails very fast - continuing the theme.

He then ends by saying that with good tools, the right tuition and plenty of practice, anyone can cut dovetails. He doesn't make any claims that the ones in the clip are the "proper" way to cut dovetails or that the be-all is speed. It was just a bit of fun...........

I think you'll find that in his DVDs he does it "properly".

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## pedder (15 Jan 2010)

Hi Paul, 

you are right here. This clip is not a teaching video. Maybe it's PR for his saws? He shows his method in a very fast video. 

I saw his dovetail video and that is great. The right speed of teaching and working for me. Some others show it a little to slooooooooow for me. :wink: 

Cheers Pedder


----------



## Mr Ed (16 Jan 2010)

Paul Chapman":yhaa86j1 said:


> I think some of you are reading stuff into this that isn't really there. It all started with Frank Klausz who (for a laugh) did some very fast dovetails using a bow saw. The clip ended up on youtube (I think). Rob Cosman rose to the challenge and did some through dovetails even faster (also for a laugh). He has now produced these half-blind dovetails very fast - continuing the theme.
> 
> He then ends by saying that with good tools, the right tuition and plenty of practice, anyone can cut dovetails. He doesn't make any claims that the ones in the clip are the "proper" way to cut dovetails or that the be-all is speed. It was just a bit of fun...........
> 
> ...



Well done Paul - you've saved me typing all that, as I was going to make the same points!

to look at the video and believe that Rob is saying this is how one should always cut dovetails is akin to watching a Formula one race and stating you could not drive like that when you go to the shops.

In my view he's a very skilled craftsman and I personally have learnt a lot from his material, but this is just meant as a bit of showboating.

Ed


----------



## Alf (16 Jan 2010)

I know what RC's dvds are like and I know what his demonstrations are like in the flesh, and heck, I do recognise something as a bit of fun when I see it. I'm just not entirely convinced some of the dafter practitioners of our craft are capable of drawing that distinction, and if it puts someone off then I think that's a terrible shame, especially given that RC has done so much to demystify the whole dovetail thing. S'all.


----------



## Benchwayze (16 Jan 2010)

I'm sure Rob Cosman is a fine woodworker, but like our Rob, I think this is 'show-boating'. 

Also I agree with Alf. It could put tyros off before they start, if they believe they have to cut dovetails that fast. They looked tight, but badly proportioned. In a professional shop they would have been thrown in the wood-stove by the foreman. 

However, that saw is sharp, and I'd like to try one. But I think I'd still prefer my Wenzloff. 
:wink: 

Regards
John


----------



## AndyT (16 Jan 2010)

With many jobs in woodworking, there are plenty of different standards to aim at and techniques to use.

What many makers on this site aim at is something that is spot-on accurate and looks precise, from every side. If it takes a while to make, that's ok when you are doing it for the fun of making it.

But have a close look at some ordinary handmade furniture - a Victorian chest of drawers for instance. You'll see evidence of lots of little short cuts that speeded up the work.

Rob Cosman shows us some - and misses others. Starting pins at zero from one placing of the saw is one such trick. Another is to take the saw cuts back beyond the gauge line to save a bit of chiselling. When making drawers, the tails would have all been clamped and cut together.

Apart from a gauge line, all the rest would have been done by eye - no messing about with bevels or templates.

I find it fascinating to learn about these techniques - which all get left out of school instruction and almost all of the how-to books.


----------



## Alf (16 Jan 2010)

AndyT":emb8i2q0 said:


> What many makers on this site aim at is something that is spot-on accurate and looks precise, from every side.



What they aim for is machine precision. It's a potentially long old debate over whether that's what using hand tools is, or should be, all about.


----------



## Modernist (16 Jan 2010)

Paul Chapman":7eyzfjab said:


> It all started with Frank Klausz who (for a laugh) did some very fast dovetails using a bow saw. Paul



Now that _was _impressive


----------



## Paul Chapman (16 Jan 2010)

Modernist":2ydef07n said:


> Paul Chapman":2ydef07n said:
> 
> 
> > It all started with Frank Klausz who (for a laugh) did some very fast dovetails using a bow saw. Paul
> ...



I agree. That bow saw he uses always looks so cumbersome but he does really accurate work with it. I suppose he's always used it.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## SDF (16 Jan 2010)

Hello, hope I'm not butting in. This is my first post to the forum but I've been lurking for a little while.

Don't knock RC's efforts until you have watched this, it left me speachless:

http://www.woodworkingonline.com/2008/0 ... -pedersen/

Steve.


----------



## jlawrence (16 Jan 2010)

There's hope for me yet. Even I can make dovetails with gaps in like those - and that's supposed to be a demonstration by an expert ?


----------



## jimi43 (17 Jan 2010)

I'm going to have a crack at dovetails pretty soon...simply because they are gorgeous to behold...

When I do I hope I don't have to listen to that voice (that did my head in) and do it in an elevator....(the music was so annoying).

I agree with Rob...I'm sorry but while it was fun and the saw looks gorgeous...it didn't do it for me at all.

I think it is a marketing stunt for his tools...no doubt he is a great craftsman...I wouldn't want to comment on that....but I have seen FAR better results from a lot of craftsmen here...now they DID impress me.

Jim


----------



## ydb1md (17 Jan 2010)

I thought it was a pretty interesting video. He definitely has ironed out his technique.

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned his choice in, um, bench appliances. My wife walked behind me and asked me what I was watching. Her comment was, "OMG, does that thing need batteries?" :roll:


----------



## jimi43 (17 Jan 2010)

Puts a whole new meaning to the term "lignum vitae"!!!  

Jim


----------



## Chris Knight (17 Jan 2010)

I doubt it's used a lot in Rob's house - he has something like 9 kids..


----------



## Benchwayze (17 Jan 2010)

ydb1md":3ban9epg said:


> I thought it was a pretty interesting video. He definitely has ironed out his technique.
> 
> I'm surprised that no one's mentioned his choice in, um, bench appliances. My wife walked behind me and asked me what I was watching. Her comment was, "OMG, does that thing need batteries?" :roll:



I must have missed something. Bench appliances? :duno: 

John :?


----------



## woodbloke (17 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":2tsm7ile said:


> ydb1md":2tsm7ile said:
> 
> 
> > I thought it was a pretty interesting video. He definitely has ironed out his technique.
> ...


John...get a grip (but not literally :lol: :lol mallet handle! - Rob


----------



## Benchwayze (17 Jan 2010)

#-o 


:lol: 
Cheers Rob!


----------



## Alf (17 Jan 2010)

I'm not saying anything at all. Nope, not one word. :-#


----------



## Benchwayze (17 Jan 2010)

Ok.... I did once own and ride a Honda 50! 

John


----------



## Charlie Stanford (18 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":3igd7h0w said:


> The few times that I've bothered with RC haven't impressed me at all and this is one of them. As always, it's nice soft, squashy white pine that he's using (for both bits I notice) but although the pins were well cut, they were poorly proportioned as the slope looked far greater than 1:6, which is what he ought to have set them out at...setting the apex of the pin at zero also looks wrong (at least in my eyes). The end of the tails were also far too close to the front of the joint...proper convention sets out the end of the socket board in quarters. On his, it looks like there's about 3mm which is far too little.
> 
> What is clever is that he did it less than 7 minutes...but why?.. apart from showing us that he's a bit of a smart ar&e.
> 
> ...



Agree completely.


----------



## robcosman (18 Jan 2010)

We must be having a bad day? Surrounded by todays doom and gloom and you boys are getting all worked up over a "meant to entertain" video clip. 

I don't make it a habit of responding to these type of comments but thought this one deserved it. The experts are out in full force, "Squishy Pine", "bad proportions", "gaps", "scare off the newbies"! 

These are some dandies! Northern White Pine, about twice the price of Oak over here in the colonies. Should you ever care to visit and get the chance to tour some places where antique furniture is displayed you will find Pine as the most popular choice for drawer sides, secondary wood and in many cases the entire piece is made from this "cheese". I have my students practise with it, teaches them to develope a light touch. Very unforgiving wood, easy to cut and chisels but the tools have to be very sharp. It allows the new woodworker to develope his technique before building the muscle needed for the harder woods.

"Bad proportions", says who? Last time I checked no one had the final say on that one. I use to hear this a lot at woodshows, usually the concern was the small pins and that they would easily break. Many have seen me stand on the joint once the glue dried, seemed the best way to prove a point. 

"Gaps", but just one! Truth be known, we shot that clip 15 times, had to get everything right in one take. Camera angles, sound, me cutting, me speaking. That wasn't the best joint (nor the worst) but it had the least number of other errors. Two cameramen trying to get the right shot without getting each other in the frame and me working like a dog to keep it under 7 minutes-try it!

Now we are going to scare the newbies from trying. Should we make it look harder, really hard?! Make it take a weekend, pare each pin, test and re-test. I think I would be more inclined to try something that seemed simple and straight forward. I think I am smart enough to recognize that the expert should be able to do it much faster. But to be scared off because it was done too fast and looked too easy? Lets give a bit more credit to these brave dovetail wannabees!

Finally yes it was a bit of an informercial, featured my new saw, my dvd and mentioned my book. Perhaps if we took a look at how many folks have learned to cut dovetails with these tools it might out number the naysayers. 

I just got in from teahing a workshop in Seattle, had a 63 year old student who's third attempt was as good as it gets, remarkable. you'll never guess what saw he was using!

In closing, no one asked you to watch it, but everyone has the right to comment if they choose. However if you decide to comment with a challenge be prepared to defend your position. 

Have a nice day and remember Haiti if you have any extra funds, they need it. cheers
Rob Cosman


----------



## MikeG. (18 Jan 2010)

Excellent response! This whole thread really has made me smile........

At first I wondered whether woodworkers were doing the same as sports fans......creating their own heroes, setting them up on pedestals, only to knock them straight back down again, but what I now think is that many contributors to this thread lack a sense of humour and perspective.

Lighten up chaps! It's a bit of fun.......and, actually demonstrates an awful lot of skill. You've seen the challenge. Can you make as good a joint in under 7 minutes? No? Too sniffy to try, maybe? I'm not.....I'll have a crack at it this weekend, and I don't expect anyone to sneer! It's only a joke.

Rob, if you are still following this.......I'll try it in ash with a 30 year old tenon saw. If I break seven minutes and can't fit my little finger through any of the gaps, could you send an extra $5 to Haiti for me? 

Mike


----------



## Mr Ed (18 Jan 2010)

Welcome Rob -nice to see the subject of the discussion join in with a robust stance. You have confirmed what some of us were saying, that this was a bit of fun and meant to entertain.

I don't know what it is about dovetails that seem to bring out the most polarised and entrenched views in people, like most things in life there are numerous ways of doing it, all quite acceptable.

For what its worth, reading the 3 part series you did in F&C Magazine some years ago and then seeing it demonstrated in person at Westonbirt got me to the point where I can produce reliable results, so I for one value your teaching.

Ed


----------



## PeterBassett (18 Jan 2010)

> **REPORT TO MODERATOR**.robcosman**REPORT TO MODERATOR**



Now that is amusing. :lol: Fair play Rob, good on ya for putting your side across.


----------



## robcosman (18 Jan 2010)

Tell you what I will do. For any orders I receive off my website, if you mention this thread I will send 30% of the total to the Red Cross Haiti fund. You have to trust me on this and I will give you an accounting at the end. Lets say between now and the end of February. There is a comment section on the order page. My wife's brother spent two years in Haiti working among the people so I have known of thier plight. This latest disaster got to me, we as fellow human beings have to do something. I made a donation and I urge eveyone else to do what they can. We're all in this together!
Rob


----------



## MikeG. (18 Jan 2010)

Well done Rob..........thanks for that. Unfortunately I don't buy tools, but I'm sure some others here will see the merit in that offer.

Mike


----------



## DovetailingNewb (18 Jan 2010)

ydb1md":2g9zdnew said:


> I'm surprised that no one's mentioned his choice in, um, bench appliances. My wife walked behind me and asked me what I was watching. Her comment was, "OMG, does that thing need batteries?" :roll:



The only reason that your *wife* was the only person to recognize that appliance is because she has to use one on a daily basis.

All in all, this is an excellent video. Nowhere does Rob say that this is the proper way to do it. He makes these videos to demonstrate his skill, showing you that if he can do it this good in 7 minutes, imagine what he can do when he takes the time and puts a sincere effort in it.

The bottom line is that everything that most of the critics have said is unable to be backed up with a proper argument. If you can do it better, then film it and post it on YouTube. Finally, I agree that Rob is using this to promote his products but why else would he do it, he has to support his family.

Can't wait to get the DVD and actually try to do it myself.


----------



## Paul Chapman (18 Jan 2010)

Hi Rob,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for taking the trouble to respond.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## MikeG. (18 Jan 2010)

DovetailingNewb":1fy3varf said:


> The only reason that your *wife* was the only person to recognize that appliance is because she has to use one on a daily basis.



We're not that sort of forum. I wonder if people could resist this line of discussion, please, because it would be a real shame to have this thread locked. This can only end in tears.

Mike


----------



## DovetailingNewb (18 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":28ifgj1e said:


> DovetailingNewb":28ifgj1e said:
> 
> 
> > The only reason that your *wife* was the only person to recognize that appliance is because she has to use one on a daily basis.
> ...



I apologize, and that is what I believed as well, and was wondering he brought that up in a woodworking forum in the first place. I realize I might have taken it to far with that one. Again, I apologize


----------



## MikeG. (18 Jan 2010)

Welcome, DTN, by the way....and now that we have that behind us please do join in our friendly little corner of the internet. Above everything we like photos on here.......stuff you've made, workshops , and some twisted souls even like to see pictures of woodworking tools!

Mike


----------



## DovetailingNewb (18 Jan 2010)

thank you, I am glad to be here, however I do not believe I am ready to post any pictures. Like I mentioned, I am awaiting my DVD, we will see what happens after that


----------



## jimi43 (18 Jan 2010)

Hi Rob

Welcome to the forum! 

Glad to see you respond to comments. Can you turn the elevator music off please!   

Thanks.

Jim


----------



## woodbloke (18 Jan 2010)

Hell's teeth...why do I have to upset everyone? :lol: As I said earlier, it *is* a bit of fun, _but in my view_...misconstrued fun. I stand by the comments that I made in that the clip doesn't show best practice for cutting these sorts of joints, especially for a newcomer to this game.
Not sure about your white pine though Rob...I wonder if it's twice the price of quarter sawn English Oak, which is what's generally used for drawer sides in the best work on this side of the pond.
No offence intended and if I have caused some angst, then apologies...welcome to the forum btw - Rob


----------



## wizer (18 Jan 2010)

Look Look it's Rob Cosman, can I have your autograph sir? :wink: 

Just kidding Rob, good to see you backing up your business. More power to you. You over this neck of the wood this year at all?


----------



## andy king (18 Jan 2010)

wizer":27z43qvg said:


> You over this neck of the wood this year at all?



Indeed he is - here: http://www.getwoodworkinglive.co.uk/
Along with Philly, and a host of top end woodturners including Richard Raffan, Alain Milland.

cheers,
Andy


----------



## robcosman (18 Jan 2010)

Venturing over in early March, hired to demonstrate at the above show in London on March 12-13 weekend. 
Rob


----------



## Benchwayze (18 Jan 2010)

DovetailingNewb":anodsq0w said:


> ydb1md":anodsq0w said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised that no one's mentioned his choice in, um, bench appliances. My wife walked behind me and asked me what I was watching. Her comment was, "OMG, does that thing need batteries?" :roll:
> ...



Newb...

We are entitled to an opinion. If Rob Cosman puts his head over the parapet, and not everyone agrees with him, then he has to be prepared to take the flack, which it seems he is. At least he's stuck his head up again, but no pot-shots this time. 

I don't have to prove how fast or otherwise I can cut a dovetail. Whether or not I am faster doesn't matter either, as I don't have the means to prove it inconclusively. 

Rob, I admire your skill with a saw and chisel, but the slope of those tails was still too acute for my taste. And for that reason, as I said, my old foreman would have condemned the joint. 

On that we shall have to agree to differ. Welcome to the forum, and if you are staying around, don't be shy of posting. Enjoy your visit to the UK too. 

Regards
John


----------



## Jake (18 Jan 2010)

Cool: precise and thorough rebuttal.
Not so cool: The bodyguard.


----------



## wizer (18 Jan 2010)

What is our equivalent of SYP?


----------



## ydb1md (19 Jan 2010)

DovetailingNewb":2nh121tq said:


> ydb1md":2nh121tq said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised that no one's mentioned his choice in, um, bench appliances. My wife walked behind me and asked me what I was watching. Her comment was, "OMG, does that thing need batteries?" :roll:



I was only trying to be funny in relaying something that I found humorous; I thought the video as a whole was educational. I wasn't disparaging or dismissive of Rob at all. Defending him when there was no attack and bringing someone's wife into a reply is completely uncalled for.


----------



## DovetailingNewb (19 Jan 2010)

ydb1md":hvevd83b said:


> I was only trying to be funny in relaying something that I found humorous; I thought the video as a whole was educational. I wasn't disparaging or dismissive of Rob at all. Defending him when there was no attack and bringing someone's wife into a reply is completely uncalled for.



Yes i realize that now, and I as previously mentioned, I apologize.


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Jan 2010)

wizer":fu43p8g6 said:


> What is our equivalent of SYP?



I don't think we have anything as nice as SYP Tom. For me, the best pine species come in from the States, and there's a premium on them over here. I.e Douglas fir, SYP, pitch pine and parana pine. 

If I were using pine fordrawer sides, I'd choose parana pine (which used to be known as SYP in some parts of the UK.) because you can find quarter-sawn planks. 

Oooops! I would also use SYP of course... 



HTH

John


----------



## Benchwayze (19 Jan 2010)

Jake":2w8wb3s3 said:


> Cool: precise and thorough rebuttal.
> Not so cool: The bodyguard.



?

Just wondering which is which Jake? Care to elaborate? 

Regards
John

:wink:


----------



## Alf (19 Jan 2010)

I see Murphy's Law is operation again... Dunno how many times someone's asked about learning to cut dovetails and I've said 'Rob Cosman's yer man' and _the one time_ I'm critical... #-o :lol: Oh well, still stand by what I wrote and appreciate Rob posting his counter opinion - hope you hang around, Rob. 

(Now can I show off my first ever attempt at a mitred dovetail, based solely on a certain DVD? Just to prove I'm a fan usually? Can I? Well I will anyway. S'okay, it's only a link.) :wink:


----------



## woodbloke (19 Jan 2010)

Alf":221w2l7e said:


> I see Murphy's Law is operation again... Dunno how many times someone's asked about learning to cut dovetails and I've said 'Rob Cosman's yer man' and _the one time_ I'm critical... #-o :lol: Oh well, still stand by what I wrote and appreciate Rob posting his counter opinion - hope you hang around, Rob.
> 
> (Now can I show off my first ever attempt at a mitred dovetail, based solely on a certain DVD? Just to prove I'm a fan usually? Can I? Well I will anyway. S'okay, it's only a link.) :wink:


Nice Alf :wink: ...your'e up and running now. Secret mitres next...and remember, it's all in the setting out  - Rob


----------



## ydb1md (19 Jan 2010)

DovetailingNewb":30ct8kbi said:


> Yes i realize that now, and I as previously mentioned, I apologize.



No worries. 

Cheers,
Dave


----------



## robcosman (19 Jan 2010)

Bravo Alf, Bravo!


----------



## jimi43 (19 Jan 2010)

Well I am so glad this discussion progressed because so far I had "Society of Young Publishers", "Scottish Youth Parliament", "South Yorkshire Police"........

Dont'cha just love acronyms!

:wink: 

Jim


----------



## woodbloke (19 Jan 2010)

jimi43":flwpr92w said:


> Dont'cha just love acronyms!
> 
> :wink:
> 
> Jim


Try working for the MOD...complete 'mare :shock: - Rob


----------



## ydb1md (19 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":m30j125l said:


> jimi43":m30j125l said:
> 
> 
> > Dont'cha just love acronyms!
> ...



Ministry of Defense? 8-[


----------



## newt (19 Jan 2010)

ydb1md":o227dm26 said:


> woodbloke":o227dm26 said:
> 
> 
> > jimi43":o227dm26 said:
> ...



well yes, but it is spelt different, c instead of the s


----------



## ydb1md (19 Jan 2010)

newt":2vfo4ur5 said:


> well yes, but it is spelt different, c instead of the s



Interesting. There's an entire Wikipedia page devoted to American and British spelling differences. Personally, I think our U.S. spelling variations are less colorful (or colourful) than their European counterparts.


----------



## Alf (19 Jan 2010)

jimi43":k103d2mo said:


> Dont'cha just love acronyms!
> 
> :wink:
> 
> Jim


I do. But only 'cos I have http://www.acronymfinder.com bookmarked.

I will go away with my 'Bravo' now; possibly pausing to frame it. Don't mind me...


----------



## Auguste Gusteau (19 Jan 2010)

robcosman":jgs53y2n said:


> For any orders I receive off my website, if you mention this thread I will send 30% of the total to the Red Cross Haiti fund.
> Rob



Just for curiosity (not about this laudable initiative): how many saws do you usually sell in a month and how many do you ship to Europe?


----------



## wizer (19 Jan 2010)

yes and can you also print your last three months bank statements... :lol:


----------



## lurker (19 Jan 2010)

ydb1md":x5rwoget said:


> woodbloke":x5rwoget said:
> 
> 
> > jimi43":x5rwoget said:
> ...



Well really, its the Ministry of War in disguise


----------



## frugal (19 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":3fw4w587 said:


> jimi43":3fw4w587 said:
> 
> 
> > Dont'cha just love acronyms!
> ...



Nah! I have worked for the MOD and the mobile telcos have got them knocked into a cocked hat, I have read documents where it was all acronyms apart from a few connective words. Plus we get to make words up


----------



## mtt.tr (19 Jan 2010)

Rob that is amazing, i was looking at your over videos very very useful


----------



## David C (21 Jan 2010)

Alf,

Those mitred dovetails look good. Makes a very neat job.

Secret mitre d/ts are good fun too, so why not have a go? The great thing is that the only parts that need to be spot on are the mitres and the shoulder lines. Small lapses in the dovetails do not show!

There are very detailed descriptions in my first book, page 75....

The advantage of a book is that you can play it at any speed......

David Charlesworth

PS if you dont have the book I will be happy to send you one.


----------



## barkwindjammer (21 Jan 2010)

OMG Rob Cosman is on here (man-swoon)
the very first woodworking you-tube vid I watched was your dovetail vid :shock:


----------



## John Smith (21 Jan 2010)

If anyone in the UK wants to learn how to do them live, venture down to Hartland and attend one of David Charlesworth's course's. The standard there is second to none. 

That said I think Rob Cosman's DVDs are excellent as well.


----------



## jhwbigley (22 Jan 2010)

Mitred dovetails do male a neat job of hiding a grove.







I would happily recommend all of David C's books.

might have a go at a secret mitre dovetail, or a double twist dovetail soon

JHB


----------



## Alf (22 Jan 2010)

Cheers, David. I do have your first two books, ta very muchly. Much thumbed.  Not sure about secret mitred d'tails though; I recall Chris (waterhead37) and his carving tool box which used them and thinking the man's mad. Brilliant, but mad. Gadzooks, that was back in 2004. :shock: Tells you what an impression it made on me. 

Ooo, proper job there, JHB. 

Cheers, Alf


----------



## Benchwayze (22 Jan 2010)

jhwbigley":11di7nj5 said:


> Mitred dovetails do male a neat job of hiding a grove.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Them's dovetails. Outside of the tree-inside of the box.. :wink: 
Nice, nice, nice. 
John


----------



## David C (22 Jan 2010)

Well Alf, I'm sorry I can't persuade you. It is a very satisfying joint, just a series of different techniques.

Of course being mad helps but is not entirely necessary...... 

That tool chest is very nice indeed.

best wishes,
David


----------



## Alf (23 Jan 2010)

Aaaargh! I can feel myself slipping; have hopelessly low resistance to a challenge. *pulls book from shelf behind her* I'm just looking, you understand. This means nothing. 8-[


----------



## devonwoody (23 Jan 2010)

What was the advantage of using that chisel with the dovetail shaped blade, its depth of cut could be restricted and a quarter to three eigths chisel with mitred sides would do it just as well?


----------



## Doug B (23 Jan 2010)

devonwoody":15hvcc9p said:


> What was the advantage of using that chisel with the dovetail shaped blade, its depth of cut could be restricted and a quarter to three eigths chisel with mitred sides would do it just as well?



Yebbut it`s another tool to own,


----------



## jlawrence (23 Jan 2010)

Rob, as seen as you're commenting. You really ought to come clean on why you've an appliance like the one mentioned on your workbench


----------



## Benchwayze (23 Jan 2010)

Hi Woody, 

I believe it's designed for the final cleaning out of the sockets of a lap dovetail.

That was my understanding from the Blue Spruce site, where they have a special fish-tail chisel too. (At a price!) 

HTH

John


----------



## MikeG. (23 Jan 2010)

....an expensive way of doing a simple job!! If you really struggle with ordinary chisels, get into the corner easily (and cheaply) with a Stanley knife.

Mike


----------



## jimi43 (23 Jan 2010)

So who sells those chisels?  

I have a couple of old ones...somebody Iles on the label...I might try to grind them to that shape!

:wink: 

Jim


----------



## devonwoody (23 Jan 2010)

jimi43":4jmehhip said:


> So who sells those chisels?
> 
> I have a couple of old ones...somebody Iles on the label...I might try to grind them to that shape!
> 
> ...



You mean Ashley Iles.?

He resharpens chisels foc.


----------



## Benchwayze (23 Jan 2010)

Jim, 

The Blue Spruce chisel for cleaning out sockets is available here:

http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalo ... isels.html

But you can probably have as good a chisel if you take a nice, worn down old Marples 3/4", then grind it into the shape that Rob Cosman has in his YT vid. 

Asley Isles make a good pair of Fish-tails, right and left skew. Again they are not cheap; and as Mike says, a Stanley knife will work.

I've always made do with a smaller chisel that will get into the corners. But then my dovetails were always done in a rush!  

Regards
John


----------



## jimi43 (23 Jan 2010)

Um...I was kiddin' guys!!

   

Jim


----------



## robcosman (23 Jan 2010)

-one chisel instead of two (right and left skew)
-line of force is straight on instead of angled, easier to pare hard wood
-sides are sharp to undercut fibers left on the side of pins, makes it much easier to pare the pin sides.
cheers
Rob


----------



## Benchwayze (23 Jan 2010)

robcosman":3jvmrnla said:


> -one chisel instead of two (right and left skew)
> -line of force is straight on instead of angled, easier to pare hard wood
> -sides are sharp to undercut fibers left on the side of pins, makes it much easier to pare the pin sides.
> cheers
> Rob



Supporting the argument that a dovetail chisel needs to have the side bevels as close to the edge as possible, almost like a knife edge. 

Makes sense to me, but eventually my chisel rack runs out of spaces! :lol: 

Cheers
John


----------



## MikeG. (23 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":2fd5rxvl said:


> Makes sense to me, but eventually my chisel rack runs out of spaces! :lol: John



....but every single woodworker on the planet has a Stanley knife or a pocket knife........


----------



## Benchwayze (23 Jan 2010)

So the married woodworkers don't then!

 

Now, I really do collect pocket knives!

\/ 
John


----------



## Mr Ed (24 Jan 2010)

I thought the ability to do a sideways cut with the edge of the chisel looks really useful. I was thinking of making one with an old chisel I have lying around.

Ed


----------



## jimi43 (24 Jan 2010)

You need on of them there grinder things from Lidl Ed!!

:wink: 

Jim


----------



## jlawrence (24 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":36nqmgt5 said:


> Benchwayze":36nqmgt5 said:
> 
> 
> > Makes sense to me, but eventually my chisel rack runs out of spaces! :lol: John
> ...



Yes, but if you're making say a small box then you won't get a knife in there easily.


----------



## MikeG. (24 Jan 2010)

Well, I said I would have a go at this against the clock, and I did. First photo is the array of tools I used, and a couple of scraps of ash:






Second photo is the finished item............9-1/2 minutes later. (You'll just have to take my word for it......no photographic way of proving it I could think of.......) It is truly awful! It looks like something that the dog has chewed, but, nonetheless, it is a strong joint, and I didn't bust any edges off......nor need a lump hammer to get it to go together:






The big lessons I learnt in the process:
1/ Rob Cosman is a genius
2/ Ash is not the right wood to be attempting records with......with, say, walnut I reckon I could knock a minute or so off that time easily.
3/ You have to pre-set a number of your marking tools
4/ Undercutting the unseen faces is an obvious ploy. I would be interested to hear from Rob whether all his internal faces are rectilinear, or whether they are undercut. (Undercutting is traditional in construction joints in green oak, for example).
5/Don't bother marking out the tails.....just hack something out as quick as you can!

Here is one I made earlier, just to show I can do it relatively well given a few extra minutes:






Remember, this is just a bit of fun!

Mike


----------



## Paul Chapman (24 Jan 2010)

=D> =D> =D> 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Mr Ed (24 Jan 2010)

Well done that man - nice to see someone step up and have a go.

Ed


----------



## jlawrence (24 Jan 2010)

LOL. I've yet to even attempt half blinds. I've never timed it but I'm certain even through dovetails would take me at least 20 minutes - it feels like it anyway - and they still never come out presentable.
I will get the hang of it one day I promise. Failing that I'll have to talk swmbo into a Canadian holiday so I can go on a course


----------



## MikeG. (24 Jan 2010)

Thanks chaps.....

Ed, yes, I had a go. But I think it fair to say that I was found wanting! I have a secret yen to try again after practising a bit, and to do it with walnut. Rob Cosman said on here that he did about 15 of these in trying to get the filming right......well, that's a lot of practise!

Mike


----------



## woodbloke (24 Jan 2010)

Well done Mike. To my mind, your d/t's looked better proportioned than those done by RC...and yours is how I would set them out - Rob


----------



## MikeG. (25 Jan 2010)

Thanks Rob,

as I said, I didn't set them out at all......I just hacked!

Mike


----------



## Alf (25 Jan 2010)

Nice one, Mike. =D>


----------



## MikeG. (25 Jan 2010)

Thank you Alf. If we meet at Tom's GTG in the spring, there is one thing I can guarantee.......




...........I shan't be bringing that dovetail joint along!!

Mike


----------



## David C (25 Jan 2010)

It is good practice to have a narrow pins at the edges, when doing secret mitre or double lap carcass dovetails. This is to increase gluing area at the edges, where the joint might fail.

This is one case where wide fishtail or similar chisels will not work.

For this reason I like to have a pair of 1/4" skew chisels.

The fishtail will clearly save time but not everywhere.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

DavidC, can you define the difference between a pin and a tail so the my mind recognizes the part in my mind when these terms are mentioned? 

(it might be my age that is the problem)


----------



## MikeG. (26 Jan 2010)

A tail, when viewed from above the piece of wood flat on the bench, is shaped like............


............a tail! A dove's tail, or a fish's tail.

The other ones are pins.

Mike


----------



## David C (26 Jan 2010)

Sorry, my post was not quite clear.

Will do this later as the long commute to work beckons!

David


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

David C":24ek9vda said:


> Sorry, my post was not quite clear.
> 
> Will do this later as the long commute to work beckons!
> 
> David



No problem, enjoy the ride and watch out for the frost this morning, it is as thick as snow down here.


----------



## mr grimsdale (26 Jan 2010)

devonwoody":3oomp7ze said:


> DavidC, can you define the difference between a pin and a tail so the my mind recognizes the part in my mind when these terms are mentioned?
> 
> (it might be my age that is the problem)


It's easier if you forget tails altogether and just think pins and pin holes. It's the pin end grain which is the most obvious feature, the 'tails' are just the bits left in between.


----------



## Jake (26 Jan 2010)

Welcome back, MrG. (Even if it is only for a short while).


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

mr grimsdale":u8yt3cev said:


> devonwoody":u8yt3cev said:
> 
> 
> > DavidC, can you define the difference between a pin and a tail so the my mind recognizes the part in my mind when these terms are mentioned?
> ...



I think my problem is that my pins and tails are inclined to be of equal size so I dont know the difference. 

Got an idea, that if the outside edges of the timber runs to the end of the board that must be the pin piece,

What do you think?

Nice to hear from you


----------



## Benchwayze (26 Jan 2010)

The tails have the 'cut' running at an 'angle' to the 'face-grain'. 
The pins have the 'cut' running at an 'angle' to the 'end-grain'. 
The gaps in between should be bigger 'oles too! 

I think I solved it. As 90 deg is also 'an angle', I think I'm just gonna do box joints! Then it's the same thing either way! :lol: 

Now I really am getting into the shop! 
TTFN folks

John


----------



## woodbloke (26 Jan 2010)

Jake":15phb8ba said:


> Welcome back, MrG. (Even if it is only for a short while).


I await the next honing thread with anticipation :roll:  - Rob


----------



## Jake (26 Jan 2010)

Why start that already?


----------



## mr grimsdale (26 Jan 2010)

devonwoody":1gk934s3 said:


> mr grimsdale":1gk934s3 said:
> 
> 
> > devonwoody":1gk934s3 said:
> ...


Hmm you've got me confused now.
Perhaps just ask yourself which are the pins / pinholes and try not to use the word 'tails' at all.


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

yeah but mine are equal size pins and tails.


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

OK this is the TAIL piece, right?


----------



## MikeG. (26 Jan 2010)

I know you don't bother with my posts, but take your own drawing and pretend to view it from above as though the piece of wood were lying flat on the bench. Are the shapes at the end tail-like, as I described pages back? Yes......

........ergo, this is the tail board.

Mike


----------



## mr grimsdale (26 Jan 2010)

devonwoody":149cruju said:


> OK this is the TAIL piece, right?


Nope. Forget tails. Those are pin holes.

'Open side' is confusing too as you can have half a pin (half a pin hole) on the edge - or not, depending on the design.
(actually it'd be more than half or it looks a bit mean).



> yeah but mine are equal size pins and tails


Nope. They are pins with similar sized spaces between.

No tails is just one less thing to think about.


----------



## PeterBassett (26 Jan 2010)

But then we'd have to call them "dovepin joints".  

I told you you're obsessed with this place. :lol:


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

Mike, no problem, thanks this is a tail piece and the timber end edges are open, perhaps I can remember it that way.


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

Help, I am confused again, those posts came thick and fast so my drawing is a tail?


----------



## mr grimsdale (26 Jan 2010)

devonwoody":1jyejr8b said:


> Mike, no problem, thanks this is a tail piece and the timber end edges are open, perhaps I can remember it that way.


Except you could have half a tail on the edge which would make it 'closed'


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

mr grimsdale":1yr7qq49 said:


> devonwoody":1yr7qq49 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike, no problem, thanks this is a tail piece and the timber end edges are open, perhaps I can remember it that way.
> ...



No I would design it so there was an open edge each side, so that is a tail?


The reason for wanting to know is because sometime a rebate is needed for a drawer bottom.


----------



## Benchwayze (26 Jan 2010)

Rebates for drawer bottoms are not so good as a groove, or drawer-slips.

The groove should go through the lower 'Tail', in the drawewr side, so it doesn't show as a quare hole on the drawer front. 

So, Mike G's 'Dovetails' or 'Fishtails' are' always on the drawer sides. 

Unless you want to show them on the front as a design feature, rather than a 'mistake'. :wink: 


regards
John


----------



## jimi43 (26 Jan 2010)

I am now fascinated by this terminology thing...off to WIKI when that happens...






Good article HERE TOO

There is also a fantastic picture on there:








> Decaying Dovetail joint of chest at The Holy Monastery of St. Nicholas Anapausas (Μονή του Αγίου Νικολάου), Meteora, Greece



The monks did that in 5 minutes 32 seconds!    

Fascinating article

Jim


----------



## devonwoody (26 Jan 2010)

Yep I should have used the word groove.


----------



## Green (26 Jan 2010)

woodbloke":35d0pcup said:


> I await the next honing thread with anticipation :roll:  - Rob



Give it a rest.


----------



## devonwoody (27 Jan 2010)

Thank you jimi43,

Best description for me,

Pins must go to an edge.

Remember pins must go to an edge.

Remember pins must go to an edge.

Remember pins must go to an edge.

Remember pins must go to an edge.

(Also I now recall that the first pin is a half pin.)


----------



## mr grimsdale (27 Jan 2010)

devonwoody":1tfhx4et said:


> Thank you jimi43,
> 
> Best description for me,
> 
> ...


 :lol: No good!
If you look at Jim's picture below, you will see pins and tails both at and not at an edge.


----------



## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

No, John, not necessarily. You can easily have half a tail at the edge, if you choose, and the pin would then not be at the edge of the board. Forget all about edges......that is a red herring......and return to what I have said twice already. Just look at the shape of the worked ends of the boards when they are lying flat on the bench, viewed from above. The one that has tail-shaped pieces sticking out of the end is the tail board. The one that has straight bits sticking out is the pin board. 

Please can you leave this alone now.........we've had two pages trying to explain this simple concept to you.

Mike


----------



## devonwoody (27 Jan 2010)

I'm only going to do dovetails that have pins at both edges. :wink: :wink:


----------



## Benchwayze (27 Jan 2010)

Mike?

Which John! 
What did I say! 

 

Ignoring the fact that 90 deg is an 'angle';
I'll rephrase:

Both parts of a dovetail joint (tails and pins) have straight cuts and angled cuts.

The tails have the angled cuts going across 'long-grain' (or face grain) and the straight cut will be across end grain.

The pins will have straight cuts going along the face-grain and 'angled' cuts across the end grain. Does that make sense?

Now, I'm going to cut some Bridle joints... 

 

John


----------



## devonwoody (27 Jan 2010)

With Mikes suggestion (which works) how do you tell before you have made the joint 

I'm wanting something has I requested in the first place , how do I remember which is which in my mind.


----------



## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

Benchwayze":jlel6mg8 said:


> Which John! What did I say!



Not you John!! I was referring to John.

Mike


----------



## MikeG. (27 Jan 2010)

devonwoody":2j3wiglu said:


> With Mikes suggestion (which works) how do you tell before you have made the joint
> 
> I'm wanting something has I requested in the first place , how do I remember which is which in my mind.



Don't!! Just don't.........

Go out to the workshop, and make up a dovetail joint from some scraps. Take a felt-tip pen and write on each board in big letters....."Tail board" "Pin Board" as appropriate, checking against the reference drawings posted above. Drill a bit hole in one of them, smack a nail into the wall, hang it up, and go have a look at it before you ask, ever again, which one is which.

Please.

Mike

.......anything more on this will just look, once again, like the actions of a Troll


----------



## devonwoody (27 Jan 2010)

I could stick a piece of paper up on the wall, much easier this morning, 2" of frost around. 

Anyway if I make a pin line first on a piece of timber which has a straight line marked from the edge I know that is going to be the pin piece.

But I always mark out the tails first :x


----------



## Benchwayze (27 Jan 2010)

Mike Garnham":188euw5j said:


> Benchwayze":188euw5j said:
> 
> 
> > Which John! What did I say!
> ...


Ok Mike! Thanks.. 

Regards

Mike... errr  John! Now where am I!

:lol:


----------



## devonwoody (27 Jan 2010)

6147 views on such a simple matter, Charley must be pleased if he gets a penny a view.


----------



## Auguste Gusteau (10 Mar 2010)

robcosman":2fcz0v1k said:


> Tell you what I will do. For any orders I receive off my website, if you mention this thread I will send 30% of the total to the Red Cross Haiti fund. You have to trust me on this and I will give you an accounting at the end.
> Rob



February passed.


----------



## robcosman (11 Mar 2010)

No takers on the offer identified themselves so I sent in another $100.00 anyway. don't like advertising this but you asked and I did say I would return and report. 
CHeers
Rob


----------



## Auguste Gusteau (30 Mar 2010)

Rob, I have a question about your dovetail saw: the white plastic handle is molded or mechanically shaped?

Auguste Gusteau


----------

