# Flying Goblet - ** Not Flying Anymore**



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

First attempt last night at making a goblet, after limited succes with a couple of bowls used a pieced of timber 6-7 inches long turned it between centres and got a very nice finish, did as the video suggested and cut a spigot(if thats what its called) about 6mm long and 30 mm wide for attaching to the chuck, put it on tightened as much as i can and trued it up again - so far so good but as soon as i started to work on the end grain to hollow it out the wood came loose and flew off, i tried this 3 times before i gave up am i missing something or am i just not getting it tight enough

Any ideas, in the end i put the wood back between centres and turned it into an "Appear" (was supposed to be an apple then a pear and in the end came out looking like a bit of both"

Tony


----------



## mudman (18 Nov 2004)

Tony,


What chuck are you using? 
Check your lathe speed. The Supanova manual says that you shouldn't exceed 850rpm.
Also, if you're using Supanova with the standard 50mm jaws, your spigot needs to be a minimum of 40mm so it seems likely that the jaws weren't providing the best grip.

But then, if you're not using the Supanova chuck, it must be something else. :?


----------



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

Thanks for that, im using a Supernova - sounds like you may be right, will have another go this evening

T


----------



## Taffy Turner (18 Nov 2004)

Tony,

Did you cut the spigot straight, or did you cut it on a dovetail?

The dovetail will give you a much better grip than a straight one. (Make sure the angle matches the one on the jaws of the chuck)

Regards

Gary


----------



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

Im using C Jaws, i cut it straight no idea how you cut a dovetail?


----------



## Taffy Turner (18 Nov 2004)

I am not familiar with that chuck, so don't know what a C jaw is.

However, if you look on the inside of the jaw (the bit that actually grips the wood), you will notice that it isn't parallel with the lathe axis, but that it is undercut. When you cut a spigot for gripping on, try to match the angle on your spigot with the angle on the chuck jaw - I have found the easiest way to do this is by using my skew chisel flat on the rest as a scraper.

If you cut your spigot as described, you will find that you have to have a MAJOR catch to pull the wood out of the chuck (it can still be done though - trust me!).

Similarly, if you are cutting a recess in a bowl bottom for internal gripping, you also have to undercut it so that the external part of the chuck jaw can seat in properly.

Hope that this helps.

Gary


----------



## mudman (18 Nov 2004)

Bit confused now. :? The C jawsare an Axminster designation for their own proprietary chuck and not the Supanova. I'd be nervous of using the wrong jaws on a chuck.
If you are using the 50mm jaws then your spigot is too small and needs to be larger, check the link to the jaws manual in the other Supanova thread.
If you are using the spigot jaws, then the diameter is correct but far too short, it needs to be about 30mm long I think. (Can't check right now as the manual has stopped working for me.)


----------



## mudman (18 Nov 2004)

Taffy Turner":1pqshf3c said:


> I am not familiar with that chuck, so don't know what a C jaw is.
> 
> However, if you look on the inside of the jaw (the bit that actually grips the wood), you will notice that it isn't parallel with the lathe axis, but that it is undercut. When you cut a spigot for gripping on, try to match the angle on your spigot with the angle on the chuck jaw - I have found the easiest way to do this is by using my skew chisel flat on the rest as a scraper.
> 
> ...



The Supernova manual makes a point that you shouldn't do this with the 50mm jaws as it will reduce grip.


----------



## Taffy Turner (18 Nov 2004)

Just looked at the SuperNova manual on their website.

The Supernova chuck has a lip designed to bite into the wood, so does not require a dovetail spigot - sorry for the confusion.  

I had naively assumed that the jaw design was similar to my Record chuck (which does require a dovetail spigot, and consequently provides a *very* strong grip).

However, looking at the C Jaws on the Axminster website, they do look like they require a dovetail spigot, so I think we need to establish exactly which jaws Tony is using.

I would agree that using Axminster jaws on a Supernova chuck may be a little unwise to say the least!


----------



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

mudman":2ax1j1xn said:


> Bit confused now. :? The C jawsare an Axminster designation for their own proprietary chuck and not the Supanova.



Sorry used the designation C as an indication of the shape, mu understanding fro the videos ive seen were the spigot is the depth of the indentation on the jaw. Are you sugesting that its cut with a notch and then longer so it goes into the jaws further

Sorry if im confusing anyone


----------



## Adam (18 Nov 2004)

UKTony":nu9g8y8h said:


> mudman":nu9g8y8h said:
> 
> 
> > Bit confused now. :? The C jawsare an Axminster designation for their own proprietary chuck and not the Supanova.
> ...



Time to get your digital camera out me-thinks!! :wink: 

Adam


----------



## mudman (18 Nov 2004)

Do they look like this: 






Or This:





First ones are the standard 50mm and the second are the spigot jaws that get given away free these days.


----------



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

Top ones, im making my spigot the depth of the first recess which i think is about 6 mm down

Many thanks

Tony


----------



## mudman (18 Nov 2004)

Okay, then I think the problem is with the size of spigot that you've made. The manual says:


> SPIGOT SIZE: Standard jaws will grip a round spigot between 45mm (1 49/64 inches) to 65mm
> (2 9/16 inches) approx. Square timber between 40mm (1 37/64 inches) to 50mm square approx.
> (Note: EUROPE/UK: Maximum size is 6mm (1/4”) less).



Doesn't say how long the spigot should be but 6mm does seem a little short.

The troubleshooting section also says:


> 10. Wooden spigot shifts
> during turning
> Check that the spigot area is made correctly for jaws to grip. Check that
> the spigot is not oversize. See spigot operation instructions Page 11.
> ...



Edit: Just checked the jaws manual, spigot size should be a minimum of 16mm so that is probably your problem.


----------



## mudman (18 Nov 2004)

Just had a thought when you say spigot, you do mean a bit for the jaws to grip around and not a recess for the jaws to go into don't you.

Only asking 'cos I kept calling a recess a spigot until I was put right.


----------



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

Its a spigot...i should revert to my IT background and use terms like a "Male" connector 

This woodturning bug has completely taken over my life, i have not touched in anger a new Thicknesser and Planer that arrived this week and am about to now start looking for a new Bandsaw for Blank cutting, I was in the workshop last night completely redesigning the garages to accommodate the Lathe until 2 am....at least the wife will never have to buy a salad bowl again


----------



## mudman (18 Nov 2004)

UKTony":27si20be said:


> Its a spigot...i should revert to my IT background and use terms like a "Male" connector
> 
> This woodturning bug has completely taken over my life, i have not touched in anger a new Thicknesser and Planer that arrived this week and am about to now start looking for a new Bandsaw for Blank cutting, I was in the workshop last night completely redesigning the garages to accommodate the Lathe until 2 am....at least the wife will never have to buy a salad bowl again



Phew, thought it would be safer to be sure, you know how these things happen.

I know what you mean about that bug, bit me a while back as well. Trouble is that I can't get to anything in my workshop at the moment. It's full of plasterboard and furniture. :evil: 
Not happy. Especially as I have a nice new Sorby RS2000 hollowing system to try out.


----------



## Alf (18 Nov 2004)

And in one fell swoop his signature explained...





Cheers, Alf


----------



## Taffy Turner (18 Nov 2004)

Alf":1zmkvn2o said:


> And in one fell swoop his signature explained...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And there was me thinking it was because he was a big DW fan!!!!


----------



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

mudman Especially as I have a nice new Sorby RS2000 hollowing system to try out. :cry:[/quote said:


> Ive brought one of those too, stupid really considering i cant use a spindle gouge yet, just spent another 80 quid on a sharpening Jig from Sorby after watching there free demo CD and reading some of the other posts.
> 
> No complaints from the wife yet - ive given up smoking and as part of my rehabilitation im getting to spend my £70.00 a week saving on tools for as long as i can drag it out 8)


----------



## Taffy Turner (18 Nov 2004)

Yup - turning is one of the best ways of filling up your workshop and emptying your wallet!!!!  

If you are as much of a novice as you claim, might I respectfully suggest a course of some kind. I went on a 3 day course at Craft Supplies, and it helped me enormously. Gets you past that horribly frustrating stage where you have loads of ideas for things you want to make, and can't make any of them as you lack the requisite techniques. Also it was a lot of fun!

If you pick up a copy of Woodturning mag, there are loads of adverts for instruction / courses in the back. Or I believe Mike (Cutting Crew) who contributes regularly to this forum also offers tuition.

Gary


----------



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

Novice...on my 2nd bowl - 5 books and 3 videos has been my tuition so far

Your right about training - Was trying to find someone local to do a one on one course, for a few hours too much work to get away for 3 days have emailed a couple of people from the Association of woodturners but have yet to recieve a reply...Peter Childs is not far from me so will also try them for a one day course


----------



## mudman (18 Nov 2004)

UKTony":3w3q17oo said:


> No complaints from the wife yet - ive given up smoking and as part of my rehabilitation im getting to spend my £70.00 a week saving on tools for as long as i can drag it out 8)



Good incentive to stay on the straight and narrow then, but I hope that last pun there was unintentional. :wink: 

Gary is right as well. You can't go wrong in investing in a short course of instruction.


----------



## frank (18 Nov 2004)

tony have you looked to see if there are any clubs local to you, when you say it went flying was it as you started to hollow it out ,and did you start in the centre and work to the edge ,or just started with the scraper ,i'm sure the turners on here can explain it better than me ,i'm just a novice aswell so it might be a case of the blind leading the blind . :?


----------



## UKTony (18 Nov 2004)

Had another go tonight with a longer spigot jaws were very tight, was ok working along the wood, when i tried to hollw the blank came loose, tried it with a screw chuck and the same thing happened, so its down to me and end grain turning. I'm following the video by pushing the gouge into the centre then as i start to work from the centre out the workpiece starts to loosen, blank is about 4 inches long, frustrating night, but i did manage to make an egg which looked like a lemon after giving up on the goblet


----------



## mudman (19 Nov 2004)

Tony,

Do you get a dig-in that causes it to move or does it just seem to drift off?


----------



## UKTony (19 Nov 2004)

It seems to be a mixture of the two more dig in than is coming loose?

T


----------



## mudman (19 Nov 2004)

A dig-in could knock it out of line. Personally I don't think the spigot is a very secure method of holding the work and you have to be very careful with what you are doing.

Not sure what others think but you could try using a faceplate at first until you get more experience as it is a lot more forgiving of dig-ins. You do get the added fun of parting-off and making sure you don't hit the screws. :?


----------



## Cutting Crew (19 Nov 2004)

Hello Tony,

After returning from the US I've just been catching up on the forum, sorry to hear about your "Flying Goblet" problems.

Taffy is right about taking lessons, think about when you see babies learning to walk there's always someone there to catch them, videos and books are excellent for getting knowledge into your head but you can't beat hands on teaching. More and more turners of all levels are going on courses, as an example all my dates are booked up well into the new year, from basic turning, texturing and colouring work through to hollow forms.

Reading the posts, one of the points I can't understand is the maximum RPM on your chuck. As I've mentioned before I use Axminster or Vicmarc chucks and these run at much higher RPM, up to 3000 I think for the Vicmarc. Turning a goblet about 3" across I would expect to be turning at well over 1000 RPM probable more like 1500.

I'll try and describe how I would start to turn a goblet if that helps.

Firstly after mounting the blank between centres I will square off one end to form a spigot (tenon). Measuring the chucks "C" type jaws, (similar to the top Nova photograph shown on the forum) the spigot should be the same depth as the measurement from the front of the jaws to the step inside. On the Axminster this is roughly 6mm. I also create a dovetail to get maximum grip from the jaws, the dovetail points into the blank. The only time I would use a straight spigot is when I use the "Shark" type jaws (the bottom Nova photograph) I then remove the blank from between centres and mount it into the "C" type jaws.
I then set my lathe speed and start on the bowl end of the goblet, Get to the rough outside shape I'm looking for then start hollowing out from the cente to the outer edges, this way I also get a cleaner cut as I am cutting "downhill" over the fibres rather than into them. Most of the walls of the goblets I turn are about 1/16" thick.

Hope this helps.

Regards....Mike


----------



## Taffy Turner (19 Nov 2004)

UKTony":11ycrjjo said:


> Had another go tonight with a longer spigot jaws were very tight, was ok working along the wood, when i tried to hollw the blank came loose, tried it with a screw chuck and the same thing happened, so its down to me and end grain turning. I'm following the video by pushing the gouge into the centre then as i start to work from the centre out the workpiece starts to loosen, blank is about 4 inches long, frustrating night, but i did manage to make an egg which looked like a lemon after giving up on the goblet



Tony,

A screw chuck isn't normally very good at holding in end grain, and can lead to grief. If you want a secure hold, drill a hole across the flats of the blank about 1/2" in from the end you want to grip, and then glue a dowel into the hole. That way, when you mount it on the screw chuck, the screw will be holding in the side grain of the dowel (if you see what I mean). Much more secure that way.

FWIW - don't get discouraged - hollowing end grain is tricky until you aquire the knack - don't be put off by the inevitable catches, and if all else fails, don't be ashmed to use a scraper (light cuts!!!).

Hope this helps.

Gary


----------



## UKTony (19 Nov 2004)

Mike

Thanks for the reply, i have not tried a dovetail yet will try again later may just do the trick since extending the tenon made no difference. i've just watched Chris Stotts video again and he makes some practical suggestions about using the screwchuck which i will also try out.

i've managed to book myself on an evening class in January in stevenage so will perservere with trial and error until then

Many thanks to everyone who has helped, promise to post a pic if i get something produced that looks like a goblet

Glad people have also worked out my Yellow and Orange quote from my Daughter


----------



## Cutting Crew (19 Nov 2004)

Hello Tony,

As Taffy rightly says, screwchucks into end grain don't work to well.

I've tried to add a drawing of the spigot and jaw setup * Spigot Setup *

Hope this helps.

Regards....Mike


----------



## mudman (19 Nov 2004)

As to spigot shape, here's the bit from the manual:



> FORMING SPIGOT: When selecting wood make sure it is sound without splits or weakness -
> especially around the area where the spigot is to be formed. REMEMBER WITH FREE END TURNING, THIS IS THE ONLY AREA GRIP. IF ANY WEAKNESS IS FOUND, DO NOT PROCEED.
> Mount wood between centres and turn the spigot area. Make the spigot as parallel as possible to maximise the efficiency of the clamping action. Only approximate sizing of the spigot is necessary, as the jaws will accommodate a wide range of spigot diameters within the spigot limits stated above. The 50mm standard jaw has a thin lip or shoulder at the front face. This is designed to bite into the timber as the jaws are tightened. DO NOT CUT A RECESS FOR THE LIP TO FIT INTO, AS THIS WILL REDUCE GRIPPING POWER.



Note that they are saying that the spigot should be straight, but there again, if it doesn't work, then you might as well try the dovetail method. I was wondering if any other Supernova owners form a dovetail spigot? If this does give a better grip then I for one would use this in future.


----------



## UKTony (20 Nov 2004)

Many Many thanks to all those that gave me some advice, the dovetail worked and i also found it easier using the round nose scraper on the inside as mentioned by a couple of people. This is my first attempt sanded and polished...candle for photographic effect


----------



## mudman (20 Nov 2004)

Tony,

Congratulations!
Nice looking as well, I bet you're well pleased with yourself.  
I was having a look at my 50mm jaws today and they are quite straight apart from the bulge for gripping. I am wondering if the bulge may in fact prevent you from getting a descent grip in a hard wood that is overcome by having the extra bulge in the wood below.
I think I shall have to give this method a go myself (when I can get rid of the furniture, almost there, another weekend then SWMBO won't be seeing me for all of the next).

Cheers,
Mudman

Who sometimes, maybe, perhaps believes what they say in the instructions just a tad too much. :?


----------



## Cutting Crew (21 Nov 2004)

Hello Mudman,

You make an excellent point about the jaws not being able to get a decent grip in hard wood.

I for one can't understand the Nova manual stating to cut a square spigot. There is no way any amount of pressure applied to the chuck key will make the jaws seat properly in hard wood.

By cutting a dovetailed spigot as other chuck suppliers recommend, the narrow point nearest the main blank is supported by the bulge of the jaws and the widest point furthest away from the blank is supported by the base of the jaws.

Tony: Now you've learnt about the dovetail spigot I hope to see you holding a 12" long blank in the same jaws and making beautiful goblets by the dozen. (My invoice is in the post by the way)

Regards....MIke


----------



## Cutting Crew (21 Nov 2004)

Tony,

The rough length for a finished goblet should be in the region of 8" tall. 

Take a look at the photograph below, this goblet was made in three parts, the bowl and the foot are in mountain ash and the stem in ebony. The bowl is 2mm thick.

The stem is joined to the bowl and foot by tenons.

Regards....Mike


----------



## DaveL (21 Nov 2004)

Mike,

That is a wonderful piece of work. 8) Thank you for posting pictures like that I love to see what the other members are making.


----------



## Taffy Turner (22 Nov 2004)

Mike,

PLEASE stop posting pictures of your work - you are making me depressed, plus increasing me feelings of inadequacy!!!  

Seriously - that is a fantastic goblet. Stunning design and faultless execution as always.

Gary


----------



## Newbie_Neil (22 Nov 2004)

Hi Mike

Your goblet is absolutely stunning. Another masterpiece.

Cheers
Neil


----------



## UKTony (23 Nov 2004)

Day 5 in the Flying goblet workshop and air traffic control is at Defcon 5 will now progress from pine offcuts to something a little tastier, also tried sanding through the grits this time and the finish was much better will attempt a thin proper looking goblet now, my son asked if this was a chess piece  Sharp tools also made a massive difference.. Mike this was 7 inches so im getting bigger


----------



## Taffy Turner (23 Nov 2004)

Tony,

Nice one! Your goblet making skills are coming on nicely. Considering that was made from a pine offcut, you got a very nice finish, as Pine is not the easiest of woods to turn, and may go someway towards explaining your "flying" problems. 

Early on in my turning days, I tried making a few things out of pine offcuts, and was getting disheartened that I couldn't get the tools to cut cleanly. Then I tried using Ash and Beech, and I suddenly found that I was a having much more success.

Mike will probably know more, but I think that the pine is actually too soft, and so tends to tear instead of cutting cleanly, unless the tool is razor sharp.

Keep going mate - you'll soon be up to Mike's standard at this rate!


----------



## UKTony (24 Nov 2004)

In the continuing saga of the flying goblet, turned some Iroko last night got the shape of the goblet ok and then decided to be a clever dick and try and improve the finish just that tiny little bit more, promptly snapping it in two, glued it back together and presented it for inspection, only to be told it didn't look finished :twisted: Woke up early this morning and made a bung tidied it up between centres and hey presto you can barely see the join....


----------

