# Bedroom Tax



## Max Power (26 Mar 2013)

A scrounger who has never worked although perfectly able bodied, and lives alone in a three bedroomed house was complaining about either having to move to smaller accommodation or be "penalised" for having two empty bedrooms. 
My response was that if I couldn't afford to live in a property that was much larger than my needs then I would have to move , so why shouldn't he do the same and why the hell should my taxes go to subsidising his excesses.
For some reason he took offence :roll: , was I wrong


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## Max Power (26 Mar 2013)

could a mod please move this to general chat
thanks


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## MickCheese (26 Mar 2013)

No, you're absolutely right. 

Mick


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## eribaMotters (26 Mar 2013)

To give you some indication of how much benefit is being claimed, consider my position. I do not earn a lot, just a little over the average wage. I am a 51 year old teacher with 30 years experience, married with 2 sons, 20 and 23. Admittedly I work a 40 week year, but I average 55hrs a week as opposed to the "normal" 38hrs. After I have deducted the mortgage from my take home pay I am left with an amount substantially less than my [Post Office counters part time working] wife routinely hands out each week to 30 year olds who are unemployed. This is of course after she has taken out the vastly reduced rent they pay to the council.
Admittedly I am fortunate enough in getting odd paying woodwork jobs, but without these I get no holidays and have no spending money.
I am only grateful the "gentleman" with bedrooms you mentioned has not crossed my path.

Colin


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Mar 2013)

I used to use a post office on a council estate because it was easy parking, and I was there one social security day. The amount of money handed out was unreal, and I followed a girl from the p.o. counter to the front of the shop where she bought £5 of chocolate, 200 cigarettes and thirty quids worth of lottery tickets. Nice work if you can get it.
I see in one area rent arrears have gone up 500% since they stopped paying the money directly to the landlords - I wonder who thought that was a good idea?


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## eribaMotters (26 Mar 2013)

I should not post this, but I will. The previous Post Office branch my good lady worked at was a "corner shop" affair. It had been raided on several occasions and I could not figure out why, until I was informed that it had to carry sufficient funds to cover it if the usual cash delivery was late. 15/20 years ago we were looking at £1/4 million plus.

Colin


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

Max Power":1rkrc2gh said:


> A scrounger who has never worked although perfectly able bodied, and lives alone in a three bedroomed house was complaining about either having to move to smaller accommodation or be "penalised" for having two empty bedrooms.
> My response was that if I couldn't afford to live in a property that was much larger than my needs then I would have to move , so why shouldn't he do the same and why the hell should my taxes go to subsidising his excesses.
> For some reason he took offence :roll: , was I wrong


Yes you were wrong. If your story is in any way true no doubt the truth itself is far more complicated. Most likely it's just supposition as there is a great deal of malicious gossip being generated and directed at the poor; tory policy eagerly assisted by right wing press. 
It's a band-wagon everybody seems keen to get on (see other posts :roll: ) - the bankers and tax evaders must laugh their socks off! Not to mention the second home owners, large house owners and other wealthy under-occupiers of many varieties.

There are some layabouts living in this place - they've got plenty of spare bedrooms:


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Mar 2013)

Jacob, I live in a very poor area. The majority of the poor are the ones working their nuts off to subsidise people who pick up more in benefits than they do working. The area is swamped with Poles,Lithuanians and Latvians doing jobs that are beneath the local pond life. Malicious gossip? Tory policy eagerly assisted by a right wing press? A band wagon everybody seems keen to get on? You are kidding, aren't you?


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

phil.p":s337t1sg said:


> Jacob, I live in a very poor area. The majority of the poor are the ones working their nuts off to subsidise people who pick up more in benefits than they do working. The area is swamped with Poles,Lithuanians and Latvians doing jobs that are beneath the local pond life. Malicious gossip? Tory policy eagerly assisted by a right wing press? A band wagon everybody seems keen to get on? You are kidding, aren't you?


No joke at all. Social problems in the SW (and many other places particularly London) are very much down to high house prices and low wages. Wages can't cover rents or mortgages which creates another benefits trap. This opens the way for migrant workers who are less dependent on housing and make do with some appalling but short term conditions. This is all well documented, but not if you read the Mail, Express, Telegraph etc.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Mar 2013)

I'll have you know I read the three finest publications in the country - Viz, Private Eye and the Times.


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## MickCheese (26 Mar 2013)

Jacob

I think if i just look at the original posters complaint I sympathise. It was simply a person living alone having their rent paid by the tax payer. Should they continue to be subsidised or should they be made to move. 

The question would not arise if they were paying for the accommodation themselves. They would be forced to move by simple financial need. 

I was interested listening to a radio phone in show recently. Many people on benefit phoning in saying they choose not to work so they can make life style choices to stay at home and look after their children and still have holidays and a better life style. Benefits were supposed to be a safety net not a life style choice. 

Mick


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## nanscombe (26 Mar 2013)

Jacob":2kpvic89 said:


> Max Power":2kpvic89 said:
> 
> 
> > A scrounger who has never worked although perfectly able bodied, and lives alone in a three bedroomed house was complaining about either having to move to smaller accommodation or be "penalised" for having two empty bedrooms.
> ...




No layabouts living there. What you've pictured is the offices of a Government department, of around 1000 staff, with some accommodation that goes with the job.



> The Royal Household aims to provide exceptional support and advice to The Queen, enabling her to serve the nation and its people. It employs approximately 1,200 staff, of whom approximately 450 are funded by the taxpayer.



Are you one of these misinformed people who thinks HM The Queen gets paid rather than being given a budget to run her department? :lol:


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## Cheshirechappie (26 Mar 2013)

Jacob":3cv2sfvt said:


> phil.p":3cv2sfvt said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, I live in a very poor area. The majority of the poor are the ones working their nuts off to subsidise people who pick up more in benefits than they do working. The area is swamped with Poles,Lithuanians and Latvians doing jobs that are beneath the local pond life. Malicious gossip? Tory policy eagerly assisted by a right wing press? A band wagon everybody seems keen to get on? You are kidding, aren't you?
> ...



Well, there's another 'interpretation' of truth propounded by left-leaning politicians, commentators and journalists. It's probably equally exaggerated. The truth is harder to find, but probably lies somewhere between.

Some months ago, a policy was announced that any one person would have their benefit payments limited to a maximum of £24,000 a year. That equates to a gross income of about £35,000 a year. The thing that startled me was some people must have been receiving more than this in benefits. I know an awful lot of people who earn less than £24,000 gross per annum, and have to run a house and bring up a family on it.

The Welfare system had become something of a mess, and even Labour party senior politiciand agree that it needed sorting out. It's perfectly fair to support people who for whatever reason cannot support themselves, but it also has to be fair to those paying in through their taxes. The fact that the current economic position is dire merely highlights the problem and adds urgency to sorting it; it should have been controlled many years ago.


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## Max Power (26 Mar 2013)

I can remember long back when being on permanent benefit would have been embarrassing. Its now considered a career move by many


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

Max Power":yek5akfn said:


> I can remember long back when being on permanent benefit would have been embarrassing. Its now considered a career move by many


Fair enough good luck to them. And they are doing job seekers a favour. There's no shame in getting benefits, whether it's cash, NHS treatment, pensions, education, you name it. It's called "civilisation" - a new and too radical idea for many I know.
Of course when a job comes up they tend to queue around the block even for rubbish wages and temporary jobs. They must be off their heads.


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## RogerS (26 Mar 2013)

Butler...you poor deluded soul. There certainly is no shame in claiming benefits because for many it IS their job. 

Just for once, admit that there are benefit scroungers out there. Stop trying to apologise for the feckless who have no intention of doing an honest days work in their life. They exist. You know that they do. But you won't admit it.
.


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## Cheshirechappie (26 Mar 2013)

Jacob":xp8k3ycx said:


> Max Power":xp8k3ycx said:
> 
> 
> > I can remember long back when being on permanent benefit would have been embarrassing. Its now considered a career move by many
> ...



Jacob - you do enjoy posting a load of utter b-----ks just to wind people up, don't you!

I know. Let's all live off benefits, every one of us. The entire nation can live on government handouts. That would be fair, wouldn't it? Just like they did in Greece.....


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## RogerBoyle (26 Mar 2013)

The one and only time I applied for benefits it was against my better judgement :evil: :evil: 

After the initial interview i was given a schedule and a booklet 
The schedule was to sign on, on a fortnightly basis and the booklet was for me to record what I did to look for new work .
I also applied for help towards my mortgage. 
After 4 weeks of a miserable time feeling lower than pond scum etc
I recieved a letter to say that they had approved my claim for housing benifit to help pay the mortgage 
I was entitled to £20 per calender month and as I was to in reciept of this my Job seekers allowance would be altered.

I would now only be eligible for £00.10 per week job seekers no you read that correctly,,, that really was 10 pence a week job seekers allowance

When I queried the amounts I was told that the figures were indeed correct and that the Government could not be seen to be buying peoples houses
And the reason I got the 10 Pence a week was It is law that I must recieve something for job seekers allowance and in my case it was the least amount that they could pay me without affecting my housing benifit amount of £20..

I was also advised to sell my house . Not to declare more £16 thousand profit and resubmit my claim as I would then be entitled to either rented accomodation 
or a council house , I would get full jobseekers allowance , And help towards re training 

They seemed to be quite amazed when I told them to stick it where the sun don't shine as I walked out . 

Unfortunatly I do know of people that do milk the system and are far better off than you would believe..

Roger


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

RogerS":24tr9x9n said:


> Butler...you poor deluded soul. ....
> .


Funny how Roger keeps calling me by my surname. I think he imagines he's still in some sort of prep school! :lol: :lol: 
I wonder if he is senile?


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

RogerBoyle":2pbii70o said:


> ......
> Unfortunatly I do know of people that do milk the system and are far better off than you would believe..
> 
> Roger


Having failed to milk the system yourself why do you imagine that others can do it?


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Mar 2013)

Jacob":1fbnq1k7 said:


> RogerBoyle":1fbnq1k7 said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...


Because you need not to own a property to milk the system. While you own property, you have identifiable assets.


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

If you don't have assets you are probably skint and entitled to some benefits. It's simpler than you think!
NB it might be your turn one day.


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## Lons (26 Mar 2013)

Jacob":2w6tsinb said:


> Max Power":2w6tsinb said:
> 
> 
> > I can remember long back when being on permanent benefit would have been embarrassing. Its now considered a career move by many
> ...



No wonder the UK is in the sh*t with views like that flying around.

I haven't read such absolute rubbish since the last time you posted on the same subject. This has been discussed previously and as said, nothing wrong with benefits paid to those in genuine need but not career layabouts.
Get your self up to the North East and I'll introduce you to some of these scroungers so you can see for yourself. You presumably don't mind funding their lifestyle - I do.

Bob

Bob


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

Lons":15mzpofk said:


> Jacob":15mzpofk said:
> 
> 
> > Max Power":15mzpofk said:
> ...


There is unemployment due to shortage of jobs, which is my point about queuing around the block. Leaning on scroungers, or bedroom tax for that matter, isn't going to increase the number of jobs available.
Leaning on bankers could be more useful, and taxing the wealthy. Taxing the poor is a waste of time - they haven't much money.


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## RogerBoyle (26 Mar 2013)

Jacob 
First Please show me where I claimed to milk the system for myself

I was made redundant
diagnosed with lung cancer 
and was on the verge of using up the last of my savings 
I was talked into receiving benefits by my kids as they decided I should get help 
Oh and lets not forget the 3 collapsed discs that I have and have to attend Derby hospital every 8 months for an MRI to make sure that the rest are not being effected

I have worked all my life Starting with the Farming when I was old enough to walk
I went into the Royal Navy as A Submariner for 11 years I was also part of the task force that went to the Falklands 
As was my Brother. I survived he didn't.

I left the Navy and re trained In Cabinet Making with a company that is no longer with us 
But I found site work more appealing and have been doing that for more years than I care to remember 
I have also started my own Kitchen Company http://www.furniturecreation.co.uk just over 2 years ago.

So yes I honestly thought that I could expect a little bit of help when I needed it ..

don't forget that during all this I have also raised 3 Kids 
one works for the Immigration Dept in a senior capacity
one owns and runs a nail and beauty clinic 
and number 3 is studying to become a forensic anthropologist 

As for Scroungers
My wife has A sister 
some years ago She had a house in derby. Never worked a day in her life not even a paper round 
While she lived there she became an alcoholic and drug user,
Had several children all with different fathers
In the end she ended up with a 4 bedroom house rented and paid for by the government
On top of this she had money for clothing food as well as social security 
She was also being given treatments for drug and alcohol addiction some of it she sold on 
She also managed to convince a doctor that she had been involved in a car crash and needed help with disability allowance 
Which she got 

So yes Jacob there are folks that do milk the system and not only from this country either 

I do have other examples as well 

In fact funnily enough all of them come from the Derby area..
Where do you live Jacob?????

If you like I can actually arrange to pick you up and meet these people , they will tell you exactly what they are doing and what is the best way to milk the system 
unfortunately Jacob the forum will not let me put what I would really like to say to you but that may well change in the future 

If you feel you really must reply to this post then please don't as I refuse to acknowledge you 

Takes a lot to get me Riled Jacob So congrats you've succeeded


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Mar 2013)

Why do Job Centres exist then? If there's no jobs, surely they no longer serve any purpose?
Seriously, they exist because they're trying to fill lousy jobs that no one wants - because.....wait for it........they're better off on benefits.


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## Lons (26 Mar 2013)

> There is unemployment due to shortage of jobs, which is my point about queuing around the block. Leaning on scroungers, or bedroom tax for that matter, isn't going to increase the number of jobs available.
> Leaning on bankers could be more useful, and taxing the wealthy. Taxing the poor is a waste of time - they haven't much money. cheers Jacob



Agreed but that is very definitely not what you said in the post that resulted in my response.

There are very definitely large numbers of "professional" benefit claimants who have absolutely no intention of ever procuring gainful employment. As I said, I can personally introduce you to a number of these scroungers and have real evidence of very many others.

Not only are many of these people in receipt of substantial sums in handouts but are also actively involved in black market "work" and sales of stolen goods, often to fund drug abuse. This isn't from the pages of the media you so often deride Jacob, they are facts - personally witnessed and accurate. These activities also contribute to unemployment and the failure of genuine companies who can't compete.

I have no argument with your ideals and agree that the poor must be helped but in the real world you might be surprised to find that the people you're supposedly defending are often not in that category.

I can prove what I'm saying - can you?

Bob


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## Dusty (26 Mar 2013)

I would say that it is a fair shout on the bedroom tax . A friend of my father inlaw has not worked for nearly 20 years , lives n a 4 bed council house . Nearly 4 years ago the housing association moved him out in to a retirement bungalow ( one bedroom ) so they could renovate his house and it was like a show home when finished ( faced up in stone ) . they then moved him back in . 

Why not leave him there in the bungalow . Now once again he has a four bedroom house to himself and it is a blummin mess , I wont go round there as it is disgusting . 

He could have worked as he had asthma , smoked forty a day and drank a bottle of scotch a day . Hard life being on benifits !!! 

Kind regards Sam


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## Jacob (26 Mar 2013)

RogerBoyle":199p241t said:


> Jacob
> First Please show me where I claimed to milk the system for myself.........


You said it yourself you couldn't get any benefits even though you sound a deserving case, but you and everybody else says it's easy and just a matter of choice.
Which is it?
As far as I know it isn't easy and it's not a good way to have to live, which is why there are queues for even the worst jobs.

PS It's estimated that the cost of tax evasion is 10 times higher than benefit fraud. Why are you all not getting 10 times as angry about that?


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## Max Power (26 Mar 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php ... 9412899867


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## Lons (26 Mar 2013)

> As far as I know it isn't easy and it's not a good way to have to live, which is why there are queues for even the worst jobs.



Where do you get your information from? 
Look very closely at some of the queues. Many will want the job, many are immigrants who are at least prepared to work but you'll also find those who are just attending to "prove" they are job seeking. It's also easy at interview or application to make sure you aren't actually offered anything thereby continuing the handouts.

It's dead easy to get on the benefits ladder if you don't own a house. If you want to know exactly how easy, just visit your local down and out estate and ask one of the guys standing around the corners throwing fag ends on the pavement.

Even easier if you're a female, just get pregnant and "forget" who the father is. keep having kids and you're guaranteed substantial increases. Spending it on the children isn't mandatory :roll: 

Bob


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## Mattty (27 Mar 2013)

There is an excellent article and blog post which touches on the subject here-
http://socandcrimatkeele.blogspot.co.uk ... anism.html

I feel a lot of us are guilty of tarring with the same brush here, and not seeing the much much wider issue. I have seen both sides, but I have certainly become more enlightened in the past few years.


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## Jacob (27 Mar 2013)

Interesting article. Here's a quote:
_Unfortunately, this rightist, authoritarian, response to social problems is far too prevalent in Britain today. On the 7th March Newsnight debate, for example, we were told that the public has no time for the poor, and that welfare is a burden that Britain cannot afford, because the vulnerable are simply lazy. This position ignores basic sociological truths._
Knocking the poor has become the new racism.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Mar 2013)

I've got loads of time for the poor. The "poor" in this area are the poor sods that work. The people that have no intention of working invariably have more money. Go to the pubs, clubs and bookies - the same people are there, day in, day out - few of them ever do a day's work. I'd love to be that poor.


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## deserter (27 Mar 2013)

What a load if middle class pineapples, I've been unemployed since January, I have my rent paid and my council tax paid, I currently get a little over £80 per week to feed myself, my wife and 2 kids. The same allowance has to pay for gas electricity and water, put fuel in the car and clothes in our backs. 
I could stop using the car I hear people think, however I live in a very rural part of the country, with extremely limited public transport, so if I have no car I have even less prospects for work. I have searched for a job for at least 3 hours everyday I have been unemployed but as yet not secured a position anywhere, why because I am too qualified for the lower paid jobs and there simply arn't any in my normal line if work. 
I am looking and planning on self employment, but funding a new venture is extremely hard, the banks don't want to know, the government had no cash, and outside investors say that manufacture is a bad investment. 

I'm not saying that there are not people who do milk the system, there are on both sides. But what's worse someone milking a hundred quid a week from the taxes you all pay, or someone milking millions out of the money you save?

Anyone who takes offence to what I have written beads to go back and re-read this entire topic from the top, and think how you would feel in different circumstances. 


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


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## RogerS (27 Mar 2013)

Jacob":tnfsgh7k said:


> RogerS":tnfsgh7k said:
> 
> 
> > Butler...you poor deluded soul. ....
> ...




My dearest Jacob...is that any better ?

Now answer the bloody question? But you won't so I shall just stick you back on Ignore ......


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## Jacob (27 Mar 2013)

deserter":15d82cuu said:


> What a load if middle class pineapples, I've been unemployed since January, I have my rent paid and my council tax paid, I currently get a little over £80 per week to feed myself, my wife and 2 kids. The same allowance has to pay for gas electricity and water, put fuel in the car and clothes in our backs.
> I could stop using the car I hear people think, however I live in a very rural part of the country, with extremely limited public transport, so if I have no car I have even less prospects for work. I have searched for a job for at least 3 hours everyday I have been unemployed but as yet not secured a position anywhere, why because I am too qualified for the lower paid jobs and there simply arn't any in my normal line if work.
> I am looking and planning on self employment, but funding a new venture is extremely hard, the banks don't want to know, the government had no cash, and outside investors say that manufacture is a bad investment.
> 
> ...


You mean you can't afford a trip to the bookies, a bottle of whisky and 40 fags everyday? Surprising - a lot of people seem to think that being unemployed is an endless party.
Best of luck with your self employment plans. 
There used to be various start-up schemes, I don't know if they are still available.


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## deserter (27 Mar 2013)

Unfortunately not any longer, now I get 4 workshops on marketing, finance, legislation and business planning. Along with a small portion of my JSA for 6 months. Still better than nothing, and it does allow me the grace if not having to turn a huge profit from day one. 

As for the question of the bookies, and whiskey, then no money spare for either, maybe one if the other posters could let me know how it's done, they seem to know how the system works better than most. 


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


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## whiskywill (27 Mar 2013)

Without the benefits system, Jeremy Kyle wouldn't have a show.


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## Jacob (27 Mar 2013)

whiskywill":av0i40ai said:


> Without the benefits system, Jeremy Kyle wouldn't have a show.


Can't say I've ever seen it.
Is that what you watch then, when you are not at the bookies? Shouldn't you be out on your bike looking for work?


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## MickCheese (27 Mar 2013)

deserter":ejtpe4l1 said:


> What a load if middle class pineapples, I've been unemployed since January, I have my rent paid and my council tax paid, I currently get a little over £80 per week to feed myself, my wife and 2 kids. The same allowance has to pay for gas electricity and water, put fuel in the car and clothes in our backs.
> I could stop using the car I hear people think, however I live in a very rural part of the country, with extremely limited public transport, so if I have no car I have even less prospects for work. I have searched for a job for at least 3 hours everyday I have been unemployed but as yet not secured a position anywhere, why because I am too qualified for the lower paid jobs and there simply arn't any in my normal line if work.
> I am looking and planning on self employment, but funding a new venture is extremely hard, the banks don't want to know, the government had no cash, and outside investors say that manufacture is a bad investment.
> 
> ...



It seems to me that you are exactly the person the benefits safety-net is there to assist. I just have difficulty with the woman in the YouTube clip posted above that seems to think that benefits are a life style choice.

I readily accept I have no personal experience of this and I hope I never will and that I am often relying on the media for my information but I do work in a job where I see the underclass at their worse. My experience is those I come into contact with who are on benefits are also working illegally for cash and in my book they are just fraudsters. Maybe we need to get to those first but most seem to see this as a victimless crime so not a priority.

Mick


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## Dusty (27 Mar 2013)

Max Power":t4av1rwf said:


> http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10151799412899867



Top Man Max , proof is in the pudding !


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## Dusty (27 Mar 2013)

Deserter ...I am sorry to hear of your plight and wish you all the best in your future , as said you are one of those who do deserve it but because you have morals you are probably not working the system to the max . 

And to add more fuel to the fire , I had a long run of work for a customer who owned a series of houses in a town near my , most were in , well less desirable areas , we nicknamed the the area as the Bronx . it was a true SH1TE hole , more than half the residents were drop outs and Skags / skanks / dross / scum /junkies etc . After a few weeks you soon recognise the faces and learn their pattern of life , mainly doing naff all . One house was on a main route through the estate in to town and every day all day they just amble through with their 300 kids , F,ing and blinding , groups of young mums with their respectable ( sarcasm ) looking partners and spawn in toe on the way to town . 

The landlord admitted all his tennants bar one were DSS and it showed . lack of respect for each other , drinking lambrini by mid day with all their kackking friends . The partners would spend all morning lounging around and then off down the pub for lunch or going for a drive in their typical Kev'd out car , normaly a BMW or Imprezza . 

And another little gem for you , after my partner had an operation for a smashed up shoulder , I had to pop in to town to do some shopping for her during the day ( special bras lol ) . I commented on the amount of lay abouts and she said to me " how do you know it is not their day off " . To which I said , " what half the population of the town ! And before the do gooders jump on me and scream how can you tell they have not got a job , when you have been around long enough , and seen it too much , you know ! 

And as for long queues for work , no chance . the doll is to easy , it is known around here that if they put as much effort in to working as they did avoiding work , the whole world would be a better place . I know a few large scale farmers and they all employ a large amount of foreign labour . Yes they pay the minimum wage , and they constantly get asked for more work / my mother inlaw runs a large firm and employs 90% foreign labour and pays good money . They all give the same reason .............when ever they advertise for people , no " native" lasts more than a week or after the interview never turn up . SO there is plenty of work , but they have created a situation where by it may look like there is no work but what it sums up to be is that there is not a job that they want to do !

And as for the £75 a week thing , bull poo . it's more like £75 PW , council tax £25 PW , rent £150 PW , gives you £250 , above the national minimum ! 

Kind regards Sam


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## RogerS (27 Mar 2013)

Sam..Sam....Sam...you are dreaming. According to Jacob, none of this actually happens. Jacob lives in a perfect world.


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## Lons (27 Mar 2013)

Hi Deserter.

You are clearly one of the very many genuine claimants for whom the benefits system was originally set up to support. A couple of months out of work hurts and from your tone I would think you probably feel loss of pride, helplessness and desperation as any normal hard working person would when trying to provide for his family. If you didn't then you wouldn't be looking for work or contemplating self employment!

Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that a sizeable group of people exist with no such values and any of us who can look at it impartially will see it. These claimants have inherited their outlook and way of life and have attitudes which are so deep rooted that it will take decades to change them, if even possible. The system is understaffed, over complicated and relatively easy to manipulate if the inclination exists. It's honest guys like you who get the thin end of the wedge and the media are quick to pick up examples which unfortunately the "sheep" who believe all they read or view to be gospel then preach to others that every benefit claimant is a scrounger.

The benefits system was only ever intended to be a short term safety net until claimants found work, but mismanagement and politics has allowed it to become a career for a large section of society.

I've been in your situation, twice in succession when both national companies I worked for went bust (though the longest I was unemployed was 4 weeks). Salary, company car, pride and hope disappear overnight, which is why I decided to work for myself - not an easy choice, as I also had 2 kids and a mortgage. I received not a penny in benefits btw as I had saved hard and my wife was working!

I'm definitely not middle class. I grew up in a council house, my father was a miner, a shop steward and dyed in the wool labour whatever happens supporter, ( my vote goes to the party I feel has the best manifesto, whatever colour flag they fly ). 
I try to keep an open mind and look at both sides and I think my posts reflect that but it does not stop me resenting the part of my taxes that are paid out to the ones who are benefit cheats whose actions are undermining the economy. I feel the same way about the financial institutions and tax evasion policies but citing them as an alternative is plain silly.(That's not aimed at you btw). It is a separate argument and should be dealt with but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Best wishes on the job front and if you can find a way to be self employed you should seriously consider it as in my experience it's worth every bit of the hard work needed to be in control of your own destiny.

Bob


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## RogerS (27 Mar 2013)

Jacob":26nysuzo said:


> .....
> Knocking the poor has become the new racism.



(hammer) :-({|= ] ](*,)


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Mar 2013)

Whiskywill - didn't you know that the people on Jeremy Kyle Show are only actors? that it's a right wing plot to discredit the deserving poor, made to fill the coffers of the Daily Mail? Shame on you!
Deserter - the reason you get a rough deal is precisely because the system's abuse is widespread. You haven't years of experience of abusing it.


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## RogerS (27 Mar 2013)

phil.p":18xok7rl said:


> Whiskywill - didn't you know that the people on Jeremy Kyle Show are only actors? that it's a right wing plot to discredit the deserving poor, made to fill the coffers of the Daily Mail? Shame on you!.....



Oh bless...


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## deserter (28 Mar 2013)

Appologies, I honestly don't meen offence, I just hate being grouped in with the kind if people whom do manipulate the systems. 
Not every one is out for whatever they can get for free, but still I get this attitude from people all the time, not least being the people who work at the job centre, the very people who are supposed to be helping. 


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


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## nanscombe (28 Mar 2013)

Dusty":2v82y9z8 said:


> ... And as for the £75 a week thing , bull poo . it's more like £75 PW , council tax £25 PW , rent £150 PW , gives you £250 , above the national minimum !
> 
> Kind regards Sam



And, with that £75pw (approx £300 pcm), you would probably have to pay:
Telephone / broadband (for job hunting)
Stamps / stationary (for job hunting)
Any required travel (for job hunting / signing on)
Gas
Food
Electricity
Water rate
TV license
...


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## RogerS (28 Mar 2013)

nanscombe":1qtcsto7 said:


> Dusty":1qtcsto7 said:
> 
> 
> > ... And as for the £75 a week thing , bull poo . it's more like £75 PW , council tax £25 PW , rent £150 PW , gives you £250 , above the national minimum !
> ...



Not sure exactly what point you are making, Nigel.


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## nanscombe (28 Mar 2013)

That council tax and rent aren't the only, and possibly not the largest, bills.

More money is probably handed over to utility companies and supermarkets.

I usually include rent and mortgages, when I speak about where peoples benefit goes, but that's already included this time around.


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## Jacob (28 Mar 2013)

People on low wages also get a rake of benefits. Not so low either - council tax benefit and tax credits come in at quite a high level. It makes comparisons complicated. Basically wages are too low or rents too high if people can't survive without benefits.
Housing benefit benefits landlords and bad employers paying low wages. Tax evasion costs us ten times as much as benefit fraud. Most unemployment is temporary - there will always be a large number of people in between jobs. 
Many working illegally find this the only way to move from benefits to employment (the benefits trap) and a year or so on may be legal and paying taxes.
There a many issues, but ranting on about a few pathetic twerps at the bottom of the pile is an irrelevant distraction.


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## Jacob (28 Mar 2013)

deserter":bqo5ijyo said:


> Appologies, I honestly don't meen offence, I just hate being grouped in with the kind if people whom do manipulate the systems.
> Not every one is out for whatever they can get for free, but still I get this attitude from people all the time, not least being the people who work at the job centre, the very people who are supposed to be helping.
> 
> 
> ~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


You aren't causing offence and no need to apologise. 
The offence is being caused by the ranters in this thread who would offend many people who are down on their luck, often temporarily and often no fault of their own
Often the accusations are wrong - there was a scheme to shop fraudsters but it turned out to be seriously inaccurate - most of them proved to be working or claiming non fraudulently. It happened to me many years ago - we were living a slightly scruffy lifestyle and enjoying ourselves a lot and we discovered later that most of the village thought we were on benefits. We weren't, we were working hard from home, quite legitimately and doing quite well.
We got a local paper to do a spot on us "cottage industry success" etc etc and the locals were surprised.


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## Richard S (28 Mar 2013)

I would hazard a guess that the original poster has no such first hand knowledge of anything of the sort but is rather re-hashing some lurid tabloid rubbish and repeating it to suit his own twisted view of the world. The fact is a life on benefits is no easy thing, it is very easy to look in from the outside and think they have it made. The truth is, these are usually some of the most ill educated and deprived members of our society and for the majority of them life on benefits is hard. The truth is there has been and always will be an underclass of criminals, scrounges and ner do wells as far back as the dawn of man, if you lot of jingoistic whiners can finda way of solving that you are better than 2000 years of history that has gone before you. I for one am tired of the "what's happened to this great country" attitude, perhaps you would all like to go back 150 to when Great Britain ruled the world? Assuming that none of you are descendants of the landed classes you might want to think for a while about what your life would be like then compared to now, personally I am quite happy for a small proportion of my tax liability to be "wasted" on "benefit scroungers" in exchange for the society we now have with the opportunities it presents for hard working individuals of all colours, casts and creeds irrespective of birthright or upbringing. I suppose we could always go back to the times when virtually everyone but the landed class was condemned to a life of unbelievably hard work for barely substance pay, with no realistic prospect of it ever improving, not to mention a severely curtailed life expectancy, although for many this may have been viewed by many as something of a blessing in disguise. 
So my advice is stop moaning, ignore the under class and let them get on with their meaningless existence while you get on with yours, they will never be happy with their life I assure you, but only you can ensure that you are happy with yours. As the old saying goes "you really have never had it so good"


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## Walter Hall (28 Mar 2013)

Interesting that in less than fifty years we have gone from being a society in which unmarried mothers were forced to give up their babies for adoption to one in which having an illegitimate child is an acknowledged route to subsidised accommodation. Surely no reasonable person could consider either of these extremes to be ideal?


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2013)

I see the mother of the poor girl that was killed by the dogs lived in a council maisonette on benefits, and still had enough spare cash to keep five large dogs. Many working people couldn't afford it.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2013)

Walter - does your elephant need its anal glands looking at?


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## whiskywill (28 Mar 2013)

Richard S":bt1drmwb said:


> So my advice is stop moaning, ignore the under class and let them get on with their meaningless existence while you get on with yours,




I am offended! Who are you to call my existence meaningless? And no, I am not part of the underclass. I work and, apart from a two week break between jobs, I have always worked.


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## Jacob (28 Mar 2013)

Walter Hall":2ffhjxpe said:


> Interesting that in less than fifty years we have gone from being a society in which unmarried mothers were forced to give up their babies for adoption


Yes things are a lot more civilised now


> to one in which having an illegitimate child is an acknowledged route to subsidised accommodation. .......


Complete nonsense. It's an "acknowledged route" only in the stunted imaginations of the moaning classes.


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## whiskywill (28 Mar 2013)

Jacob":3sygm1hk said:


> whiskywill":3sygm1hk said:
> 
> 
> > Without the benefits system, Jeremy Kyle wouldn't have a show.
> ...



I have never been in a bookies in my life. And why should I be looking for a job? I already have a nice well paid job which I like. I have loads of money but not as much as I would have if I wasn't forced to support the many parasites we have in this country, including my brother incidentally.


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## Walter Hall (28 Mar 2013)

phil.p":1v0i5ove said:


> I see the mother of the poor girl that was killed by the dogs lived in a council maisonette on benefits, and still had enough spare cash to keep five large dogs. Many working people couldn't afford it.



I don't think that is quite correct Phil. I don't doubt that the owner of the dogs was living on benefits, but she was not the mother of the child who died.

My elephant is merely feigning disability in order that I can continue to claim attendance allowance.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2013)

Yes, sorry - she is the girl's friend's mother.


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## Dusty (28 Mar 2013)

nanscombe":emoe3zpu said:


> Dusty":emoe3zpu said:
> 
> 
> > ... And as for the £75 a week thing , bull poo . it's more like £75 PW , council tax £25 PW , rent £150 PW , gives you £250 , above the national minimum !
> ...




How do you think others survive ? £250 is worth about £310 pre tax which equals about £7.80 per hour ! , well above the minimum wage and above the average wage for some ! I know a few people who are on £7.50 an hour who work for my father inlaw and they have mortgages , nice cars , children bla bla bla . You can survive on what they get 

How much do you think a packet of paper costs , 250 sheets of A4 about £4.00 , pack of hundred envelopes £4.00 , that gives £8 , tenner on stamps = £18.00 . you can certainly apply for alot of jobs with that . 

As for the rest of the bills .....we all pay that . 

I think that what it boils down to is that when you work hard , pay your bills and whats left is yours to you choose to do with you wish , but you cant do it all . you have to make choices , one or the other , and if you want both you work overtime / 2nd job etc . The resentment is they dont even lift a finger and get the lot . I have always lived by my means , if I have it I spend it , if I dont , I go with out , quite simple really ! 

Personaly there could be a simple solution ......if you are on benfits , then to earn your benifits , there is should be an authority run institution where you will attend . wether it is packing bags for charities or sweeping the streets . One way or another you earn it , and then watch to see who can then be bothered to find a job . I do seem to remember a few years ago there was a similar story and the were then saying there is cases where by there is three generations of familys all out of work , never have ...is that because there is no work !!!

I was brought up with respect , ethics and pride . 

And to top it off , my partner works in an institution ( goverment PRU ) where kids get there last chance in the education system when the main schools can no longer handle /be bothered with them . There was a case of a 9 year old girl who was not in a great situation/ struggling at school and wearing bordeline rags . I was approached to organise a voluntary team to go to her house and do a 12 hour remodel of her room . When we got there the mother could not even be bothered to get her buttocks of the couch . We re-carpeted , new skirting , new bedroom door , painted , new curtains and light fittings , posters , all for nothing and I sponsored the stuff . The whole time the mother did not leave the couch , smoked constantly and filled the ash trays ,whilst watching her "associates" on Jeremy Kyle " . The sore point for me was that the house was a SH1TE hole , mess , clothes and rubbish everywhere , she made no effort to move and apparently this is what she is like every day , hence the mess and to top it off , she does not work , has never and 99.9% sure she never will , but she will smoke 40 a day ,drink cheap wine and cider . Oh and just to prove they spawn disaster , her 15 year old son was living there with his 15 year old pregnant girlfriend and deemed it ok to smoke in his sisters bedroom ( fag burns in the carpet and over flowing ashtrays ) . The son took great joy in telling us that when his girlfriend gives birth , they are going to be moving in to their flat the council has given them , instead of staying at his mums in the spare room !!!!! ( nice little connection to the topic ) This whole situation is to convenient for some 

Cheers and ta ta from the said land of make believe , must go as that fictional series is on ....Jeremy Kyle ! 

Sam


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## nanscombe (28 Mar 2013)

Dusty":3rlvg0io said:


> How do you think others survive ? £250 is worth about £310 pre tax which equals about £7.80 per hour ! , well above the minimum wage and above the average wage for some ! I know a few people who are on £7.50 an hour who work for my father inlaw and they have mortgages , nice cars , children bla bla bla . You can survive on what they get


But you are talking about people with jobs and control over what their money gets spent on as opposed to having rent / council tax paid and you having to pay everything else with £75 a week.



Dusty":3rlvg0io said:


> How much do you think a packet of paper costs , 250 sheets of A4 about £4.00 , pack of hundred envelopes £4.00 , that gives £8 , tenner on stamps = £18.00 . *you can certainly apply for alot of jobs with that*.


Then there is printer ink, assuming they have access to a computer.

With internet at £10 a month, or use of a free WiFi hotspot, you can apply for more jobs assuming that they actually exist. Then there is the cost of phone calls. Doesn't mean that anything will come of it though.



Dusty":3rlvg0io said:


> As for the rest of the bills .....we all pay that .


And a lot of us spend a damn sight more than £73 a week in doing so.



Dusty":3rlvg0io said:


> I think that what it boils down to is that when you work hard , pay your bills and whats left is yours to you choose to do with you wish , but you cant do it all . you have to make choices , one or the other , and if you want both you *work overtime / 2nd job* etc . The resentment is they dont even lift a finger and get the lot . I have always lived by my means , if I have it I spend it , if I dont , I go with out , quite simple really !


The slight fly in the ointment with that is having a paid job in the first place. It gets somewhat more difficult when the only job available to them is an unpaid placement in a shop.

And yes, I was brought up to live within my means as well but things like redundancy are usually beyond ones control.


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## Lons (28 Mar 2013)

Jacob":rl7u0g1p said:


> > to one in which having an illegitimate child is an acknowledged route to subsidised accommodation. .......
> 
> 
> Complete nonsense. It's an "acknowledged route" only in the stunted imaginations of the moaning classes.



That's absolute bullsh*t Jacob. You need to work with some of these people to get an accurate view of the real world. Some might say you live in fantasy land - I couldn't possibly comment :wink: 

The route is very definitely there and I have real evidence that it is. It isn't an automatic instant entitlement but certainly bounces the pregnant mum a long way up the ladder very quickly.

It's the offspring of these teenage mums who need our help as just like most of their mothers they know little else and are a product of a way of life which they are very likely to copy when adults. They are also likely to be around drugs, alcholol and tobacco and be at increased risk of abuse especially where, as is common there are a number of different partners and little evidence of a secure family group.
Note my use of words - certainly not every single parent family is like this and many are trapped and need help. The difficulty is that the genuine ones don't have the criminal attitude needed to defraud the system.

Bob


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## Hardwood66 (28 Mar 2013)

Not everyone who get benefits is a scrounger


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Mar 2013)

No, but of loads of people who get them are.


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## Jacob (29 Mar 2013)

phil.p":1dddgzih said:


> No, but of loads of people who get them are.


Only in the stunted imaginations of the moaning classes. 
A few no doubt, but there are cheats and frauds at every level, especially where the gains are greater. Tax evasion is reckoned to be at least 10 times higher than benefit fraud. Banks are notorious for regularly defrauding their clients huge amounts of money. It goes on all over the place. This emphasis on the poor twerps at the bottom end is just a convenient distraction for the more competent fraudsters, banks, arms/drug dealers etc, with millions stashed abroad etc. etc.


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## devonwoody (29 Mar 2013)

Funny thing when I was younger and wanted a four bedroom detached house I asked the divisional manager for a rise so I could set out and look for one. 

He said OK, you are in the running for sales manager, and so were another 170 staff but I got the house but I sure earnt it. I burnt out 5 years later. 

I should have approached our local council and just demanded one, it would have been better for me!


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## Walter Hall (29 Mar 2013)

Jacob":1tlz8xtx said:


> Only in the stunted imaginations of the moaning classes.



Only those who have an argument that is not supported by the facts ever need to resort to insulting those who disagree with them


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## Jacob (29 Mar 2013)

devonwoody":1ku0ik7u said:


> .....
> 
> I should have approached our local council and just demanded one, it would have been better for me!


What and stay on the housing list for years and years? Don't you read the papers (not counting the Daily Mail of course)?


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## devonwoody (29 Mar 2013)

Jacob":1lm6euk3 said:


> devonwoody":1lm6euk3 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...




Jacob, thats why tenants who no longer need that bedroom space should then be downsized so that the larger family can be accomodated. (or they should have purchased the home when on offer so that they are no longer tenants)
That might help reduce the waiting list.
Dont start me on immigration. :twisted:


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## Jacob (29 Mar 2013)

devonwoody":312x50hf said:


> .......... tenants who no longer need that bedroom space should then be downsized so that the larger family can be accomodated. ........


That's not what is happening. Instead they are being taxed, with no consideration for their circumstances, let alone the availability of smaller housing units. Many of these people would be unable to move - it's an expensive operation in itself.
Are they being offered moving allowances of any sort? Are people on the other side being offered discounts for being in too small housing? Is the tax likely to be deferred until a genuine offer of alternative housing is available? Is the tax likely to bring about a major shift in housing and release many unused bedrooms? 
No to all these. 
It's just a punitive sop to the Daily Mail moaning classes; scraping the bottom of the political barrel.


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## devonwoody (29 Mar 2013)

Ah Jacob you must be right, how thoughtless of me.

Must go to some socialist meetings and get some education. :wink: 

None down here in Torbay.


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## Jacob (29 Mar 2013)

devonwoody":ouesm1kq said:


> Ah Jacob you must be right, how thoughtless of me.
> 
> Must go to some socialist meetings and get some education. :wink:


I think you should, it's never too late!


> None down here in Torbay.


http://www.torbaylabour.org.uk


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## nanscombe (29 Mar 2013)

Walter Hall":89idcnxj said:


> Jacob":89idcnxj said:
> 
> 
> > Only in the stunted imaginations of the moaning classes.
> ...



Talking of lack of (hard) facts ....



phil.p":89idcnxj said:


> No, but of loads of people who get them are.


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Mar 2013)

Jacob":2f1l3g1b said:


> devonwoody":2f1l3g1b said:
> 
> 
> > .......... tenants who no longer need that bedroom space should then be downsized so that the larger family can be accomodated. ........
> ...



Instead they're being taxed?....Not giving someone something is not quite the same as taking it away.


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## Jacob (29 Mar 2013)

phil.p":zfj44z07 said:


> .....
> Instead they're being taxed?....Not giving someone something is not quite the same as taking it away.


Close enough to not make any difference.


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## Lons (29 Mar 2013)

> Are they being offered moving allowances of any sort?



Yes in many cases allowances towards moving can be obtained. Additionally the houses are normally fully decorated foc prior to moving in.



> Are people on the other side being offered discounts for being in too small housing?



Why on earth should they be. The houses are owned and maintained by the local authorities (or us as tax payers!). The rents are already subsidised and the tenants pay for nothing in repairs, not even a tap washer - don't be stupid Jacob!

I'll give you an instance of recent mismanaged expenditure: Hundreds of council houses in North East Northumberland are in the middle of having their C/H boilers changed. Not only the boilers but radiators, pumps and controls as well as some of the pipes. The existing boilers aren't defunct, just a little long in the tooth but most perfectly serviceable. There is very little damage caused by the 2 - 3 day work but every tenant is given £75 worth of free paint. They just telephone a Freephone Crown number with their choice of colours and it's delivered to their door within a couple of days!

My daughter, a hardworking nurse has been saving for 2 years to have her ancient dilapidated boiler changed. A much lower spec system but still £2000.

Bob

EDIT - Forgot to say btw that they were also given a kit of paint roller and brushes and that there is currently a lot of very cheap good quality emulsion and gloss paint for sale in the area at the minute :roll:


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## Phil Pascoe (29 Mar 2013)

A couple of days ago I read that Knowsley's social housing bill in 1997 was £2million, which grew to, in 2010, £60million

Hardly surprising, really, is it?


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## Hardwood66 (29 Mar 2013)

I think Benefits should be payed to a prepaid card that can't be used to but fags, alcohol and can't be cashed so it can only be spent on food and clothes ect.


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## devonwoody (29 Mar 2013)

Hardwood66":1mw8khiy said:


> I think Benefits should be payed to a prepaid card that can't be used to but fags, alcohol and can't be cashed so it can only be spent on food and clothes ect.




The pippers would let the card be used for a fee to others, that wouldnt work.

No benefits would force them to join a job queue would work :twisted:


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## nanscombe (29 Mar 2013)

At least with a Giro we had to go out and queue up once a fortnight. :lol:


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## Losos (29 Mar 2013)

MickCheese":2uyvkbyr said:


> Benefits were supposed to be a *safety net* not a life style choice.
> Mick



Yes Mick that's precisely what the original plan was with social benefits, but successive left wing governments quickly discovered that by handing out bribes in the form of outrageous benefits was a sure fire way to get elected, Gordon Brown knew this and when it looked like he was on the way out he just upped the benefits even more :evil: so that now the UK social benefits costs are *far and away the biggest item* of the governments expenses, *it has got totally out of control*, and all the people not working and getting benefits are using every means possible to complain. If there is one thing that the financial crisis of 2008 has done it is to finally (after a decade) make working people realise that *you only get out what you put in* and every working person has to balance their outgoings with their incommings, companies too, *and* governments. Why should your taxes pay for a *single* person to live in a *three* bedroom house :?: Please don't try to answer that because there is no answer, it's ridiculous.


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## Losos (29 Mar 2013)

Lons":azh6r10x said:


> EDIT - Forgot to say btw that they were also given a kit of paint roller and brushes and that there is currently a lot of very cheap good quality emulsion and gloss paint for sale in the area at the minute :roll:



It's absolutely mind blowing isn't it, who thinks up these things :?: some junior housing benefits person and *NO ONE CHECKS* to see if it's acceptable, oh it's only tax payers money so who cares :?: well it's NOT acceptable, makes me so mad :evil:


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## RogerS (29 Mar 2013)

Lons":9crx50ae said:


> .... don't be stupid Jacob!
> ....



He is...don't get sucked in by the troll-meister...you know when you are winning the argument that he will throw in a red-herring and try to move the goalposts.


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## deserter (29 Mar 2013)

Losos":1ebto7di said:


> and all the people not working and getting benefits are using every means possible to complain



You sir are one of those people who I most dearly hope loose your job and are left in exactly the predicament I have been. I have not complained about the amount of help I am getting, nor have I, or will I, apply for every benefit I can. I have only applied for the benefits which I and my family need to survive. A day hasn't gone by when I haven't looked for and applied for any jobs I can. 
The amount of benefit I get covers the things I need to buy and the bills I have to pay. I haven't bought a single luxury or unnecessary item since January, in fact I have been saving £1 coins so that I can afford to eventually buy timber to try out one of my ideas for self employment. 

Please refrain from tarring every one who is out if work with the same brush, some of us hate every minute of it, and would quite happily work for minimum wage to be back in the workforce doing what we love. 


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~


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## Jacob (30 Mar 2013)

Jobs for all here? They don't seem to see benefits as a desirable lifestyle choice.

Even the Mail reports it so it must be true.

Similar here. Ratio of 25 people to each job. Can't they see that life is so much better on benefits, why are they bothering?


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## nev (30 Mar 2013)

Gentlemen.
Can i suggest a deep breath, step back and agree to disagree, we seem to be going in circles over what is obviously a contentious subject.


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## Gary Morris (1 Apr 2013)

+1 Nev, I need more popcorn


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## Max Power (2 Apr 2013)




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## andersonec (2 Apr 2013)

Cheshirechappie":2844ts5c said:


> Some months ago, a policy was announced that any one person would have their benefit payments limited to a maximum of £24,000 a year. That equates to a gross income of about £35,000 a year. The thing that startled me was some people must have been receiving more than this in benefits. I know an awful lot of people who earn less than £24,000 gross per annum, and have to run a house and bring up a family on it.



I can tell you about a shed load of guys earning less than £24.000 a year.........

Most of the guy's in Afghanistan are on approximately £18,000 

Andy


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## Jacob (2 Apr 2013)

Yes the armed forces are badly paid and in fact get a rough deal all round. But they too will get a range of benefits if they have the usual commitments, kids, houses etc.
Very few claimants will get anything like the £24000 quoted. If they did they'd have special needs of various sort and probably even you wouldn't entirely begrudge them.
There's a lot of very unpleasant hot air around this topic - strongly encouraged by the government. The idea that IDS could live on £52 per week shows how much they are out of touch with reality.
Roll on the May elections!! Let's get the bu*gers out!!!


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## Lons (2 Apr 2013)

> strongly encouraged by the government. The idea that IDS could live on £52 per week shows how much they are out of touch with reality.
> Roll on the May elections!! Let's get the bu*gers out!!!



](*,) 

I thought politics was on the "not to be discussed" list! :roll: 

Bob


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## Mike.C (3 Apr 2013)

Lons":14e82dq3 said:


> > strongly encouraged by the government. The idea that IDS could live on £52 per week shows how much they are out of touch with reality.
> > Roll on the May elections!! Let's get the bu*gers out!!!
> 
> 
> ...



As 2 members have already asked for it this thread is now locked

Mike


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