# Price of the new Veritas Small Bevel-Up Smoothing Plane!!!!



## Martingchapman (19 Oct 2011)

I notice that the new Veritas Small Bevel-Up Smooth plane is now available (on the Brimarc site) but I am staggered by the price they are asking for it - £299.95!

This plane is of identical design to the Low Angle Jack plane and Low Angle Smoothing plane, but is physically smaller than both of them.
On the Brimarc site the Jack plane is £275.95 and the Smoothing plane is £255.00.

The Small Bevel-Up Smooth plane has all the same features as the larger (cheaper) planes so it must have exactly the same manufacturing costs, but it contains less metal, therefore logic dictates that it should be cheaper than its larger stalemates.
I fail to see how it can be £25.00 more expensive than the Jack Plane, which is almost twice the size of the Small Bevel-Up Smooth Plane.
I am very disappointed at the price they are asking for this plane, due to the reasons mentioned above I was expecting it to be a little cheaper than the Low Angle Smoothing plane.

I would be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts.

Rant over!


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## Jacob (19 Oct 2011)

Martingchapman":zauf4mfh said:


> ............
> I would be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts.
> 
> Rant over!


Well, at least there'll be some change out of £300 :roll: 
I'd suggest not buying it if you are not happy with the price. Some will though; it's a fan thing.


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## GazPal (19 Oct 2011)

I've no doubt some will buy them at that price, but - from a professional standpoint - they're priced beyond being everyday user tools. Especially if an individual can't justify the price when weighed against the benefits of a certain tool's handiness or degree of use.


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## pedder (19 Oct 2011)

Martingchapman":wkvavvq3 said:


> I notice that the new Veritas Small Bevel-Up Smooth plane is now available (on the Brimarc site) but I am staggered by the price they are asking for it - £299.95!




That must be a typo. LeeValley sell them vor 180$
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... at=51&ap=1

Edit: I found the same price at Axminster. Maybe they all don't get any retailer discount. :lol: 

Cheers 
Pedder


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## Harbo (19 Oct 2011)

Probably due to UK pricing - they are $179 on the LV site?
Its bigger siblings are $219

Rod


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## bugbear (19 Oct 2011)

If (and only if) the expected sales of the small BUS were very low, the cost per unit could be very high, since the fixed overhead costs(design, tooling, marketing etc) would be not be diluted down.

However, from the LV website, in dollars:

LAJ=219.00
BUS=219.00
Small BUS=179.00

So this looks like a UK/Brimarc thing.

BugBear


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## RogerP (19 Oct 2011)

pedder":3cob6wzk said:


> Martingchapman":3cob6wzk said:
> 
> 
> > I notice that the new Veritas Small Bevel-Up Smooth plane is now available (on the Brimarc site) but I am staggered by the price they are asking for it - £299.95!
> ...



$179 Canadian = £122 Even allowing for shipping, duty and VAT someone is making a nice profit!


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## Martingchapman (19 Oct 2011)

Anyone have experience of purchasing directly from Lee Valley?

Following Rogers post, £122 plus vat is £146.40.
That leaves around £153 for shipping and other duties.
Even if the vat is added on last, after shipping and duties (which I bet is what our Revenue will do) it must still be cheaper.

Could it make sense to order directly from Lee Valley?

Martin.


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## Karl (19 Oct 2011)

Ordering from LV is the way to go.

Shipping will be about $50. So $230 in total. Say 1.55 exchange rate = £148. Your VAT bill is 20%, plus say £10 handling by FedEx or whoever delivers it. So worst case scenario is £187.

Cheers

Karl


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## Alf (19 Oct 2011)

Only one obvious drawback to ordering direct in my experience - do you really have the willpower to only order one thing from them...?


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## RogerP (19 Oct 2011)

Case for a group order from Lee Valley? Shipping should work out much cheaper per item.


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## Martingchapman (19 Oct 2011)

Karl,
Thanks for the details regards shipping, very interesting, looks as if it could be the way to go.

Alf,
Very good point.
I hear it is a very, very slippery slope!

Martin.


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## Newbie_Neil (19 Oct 2011)

Karl":1yyjpi45 said:


> Ordering from LV is the way to go. Shipping will be about $50. So $230 in total. Say 1.55 exchange rate = £148. Your VAT bill is 20%, plus say £10 handling by FedEx or whoever delivers it. So worst case scenario is £187.



If you get it sent by "Surface Mail" you'll be very unlucky to get caught for vat. The only drawback is that it takes about 6-8 weeks, but I find the saving worthwhile.

Thanks,
Neil


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## bugbear (19 Oct 2011)

Karl":igzdr0rp said:


> Ordering from LV is the way to go.
> 
> Shipping will be about $50. So $230 in total. Say 1.55 exchange rate = £148. Your VAT bill is 20%, plus say £10 handling by FedEx or whoever delivers it. So worst case scenario is £187.
> 
> ...



Customs ?

BugBear


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## Karl (19 Oct 2011)

RogerP":mlzwpugd said:


> Case for a group order from Lee Valley? Shipping should work out much cheaper per item.



I went halves with Brian (Modernist) on a pair of skew rebates - worked out cheaper for us both as we saved on p&p, only had one FedEx charge, and they were on offer as a pair as well.

Somebody should organise it. I'd be in.

Cheers

Karl


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## Karl (19 Oct 2011)

bugbear":i5ijmzf8 said:


> Karl":i5ijmzf8 said:
> 
> 
> > Ordering from LV is the way to go.
> ...



Import duty? It's nominal - 1/2% IIRC.


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## Karl (19 Oct 2011)

I've just dropped a quick e-mail to LV asking them to confirm how much the shipping cost would be for multiple planes, and if they will do a discount on a group buy.

I'm probably going to order one direct, and don't mind organising multiples etc. 

Cheers

Karl


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## pedder (19 Oct 2011)

Karl":39qgy4sf said:


> bugbear":39qgy4sf said:
> 
> 
> > Customs ?BugBear
> ...



In Germany I'd to pay 2-3 % customs duty and 19% import VAT. 

I feel, the dealer know that and make there prices just about the break even.
I importet my LAJack and paid totally 3 € less than I'd have had to pay in Germany.
So I would wait until the three German dealer fixed the price. 
Usually takes a few weeks. The dovetail saw started at 65€ and now is 45€.


Cheers 
Pedder


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## LuptonM (19 Oct 2011)

http://www.dutycalculator.com/
Thread reminds me of Mesa Boogie amps.


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## pedder (19 Oct 2011)

LuptonM":2fbybrzb said:


> http://www.dutycalculator.com/
> Thread reminds me of Mesa Boogie amps.



fanatastic link. It calculates for Imports to Germany, too. 
I'm not aware of such a page in German.

Thanks a lot

Cheers 
Pedder


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## Martingchapman (21 Oct 2011)

RESULT!

After emailing BriMarc and letting them know that I was staggered at the price of this plane on their web site, I received the following reply.

_"Apologies for the delay, I have been looking in to this for you. Unfortunately there was an error on our system for the price on this Plane, and its correct price is £210.06 Inc vat. They are however out of stock until mid/end November."_

So they are out of stock, but when they come back in they will be at a more sensible price.
Probably not much in buying them here or importing from Canade/America.

Thanks to all those who replied, have learnt a lot about import taxes etc, could be useful in the future.

Martin.


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## dunbarhamlin (21 Oct 2011)

180 U.S. dollars = 112.866817 British pounds
230 U.S. dollars = 144.218711 British pounds
So it'll take some serious brigandage, but expect the Highway Men, Cutthroats and Extortionists will get it close to £210


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## Harbo (21 Oct 2011)

The LV prices are pre-tax, even in Canada you would have to pay another 13% on top of those.
Still nowhere approaching the UK prices which would be subject to import duties, postage and VAT.
With such a price gap, worth a gamble paying direct using USPS - may get lucky?


Rod


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## Jacob (21 Oct 2011)

Martingchapman":33cwzva1 said:


> .......
> _"Apologies for the delay, I have been looking in to this for you. Unfortunately there was an error on our system for the price on this Plane, and its correct price is £210.06 Inc vat. ...._


Phew I'm so relieved! :lol:


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## LuptonM (21 Oct 2011)

I think realistically these could be sold in the uk for under £140. BriMarc mocks us.


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## Karl (21 Oct 2011)

How do you work that out?


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## dunbarhamlin (21 Oct 2011)

It's whatever the market will bear. Got used to worse than dollar parity years ago. But also, doing business in the UK is expensive - can't expect anything else when approaching half the pop are directly or indirectly on the government payroll.


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## Jacob (21 Oct 2011)

dunbarhamlin":1liq6l75 said:


> .....can't expect anything else when approaching half the pop are directly or indirectly on the government payroll.


Surely if that was true then they'd be able to buy planes? 
Maybe the "payroll" should be more generous. It'd get spent and be good for business.


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## LuptonM (21 Oct 2011)

Why is £140 not reasonable if it can be sold in Canada for £112. It should be priced less in the UK than that of what it would cost a customer in the UK to purchase from Canada +shipping/tax costs, since they are buying in bulk.


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## TheTiddles (21 Oct 2011)

I think if anyone wants cheaper tools, in fact almost anything, they should go live in the USA. Maybe once you've been there a few times they'll appreciate england a bit more! I know I do

Aidan


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## condeesteso (21 Oct 2011)

OK then, here's trouble :lol: 
I know that this forum is read by those with 'interests', but I'll speak out anyway. I do not believe that LV want such a large US/UK price disparity. For years now I have been unable to understand what Brimark brings to the LV/ Veritas brand in the UK and Europe. Brimark was very slow indeed to understand the new Veritas strategy - hence even slower to take and offer the products that now define the Veritas brand. The products are way better than the current UK distribution, and that is an imbalance due to be corrected. LV already knows that the UK is a gateway to Europe and therefore actually worth a cent. Price disparities like this are not to the liking of LV or in it's greater interests.
Veritas used to make 'accessories', but for years now has been a front-line maker of fine tools. I still question if Brimark really gets that, and why Veritas doesn't just find a more effective way of building the UK and Europe markets. LV needs to sort this because its competitors have already done so.


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## Karl (22 Oct 2011)

LuptonM":2opnaldi said:


> Why is £140 not reasonable if it can be sold in Canada for £112. It should be priced less in the UK than that of what it would cost a customer in the UK to purchase from Canada +shipping/tax costs, since they are buying in bulk.



Because it makes no allowance for shipping costs to the UK, shipping costs from Brimarc to the UK customer, UK VAT sales tax and profit.


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## Doug B (22 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":1gkkid01 said:


> OK then, here's trouble :lol:
> I know that this forum is read by those with 'interests', but I'll speak out anyway. I do not believe that LV want such a large US/UK price disparity. For years now I have been unable to understand what Brimark brings to the LV/ Veritas brand in the UK and Europe. Brimark was very slow indeed to understand the new Veritas strategy - hence even slower to take and offer the products that now define the Veritas brand. The products are way better than the current UK distribution, and that is an imbalance due to be corrected. LV already knows that the UK is a gateway to Europe and therefore actually worth a cent. Price disparities like this are not to the liking of LV or in it's greater interests.
> Veritas used to make 'accessories', but for years now has been a front-line maker of fine tools. I still question if Brimark really gets that, and why Veritas doesn't just find a more effective way of building the UK and Europe markets. LV needs to sort this because its competitors have already done so.




That makes a lot of sense & as Axminster own Brimark it doesn`t surprise me about the pricing difference between here & Canada. I used to use Axminster quite a lot but have found their prices excessive over the last couple of years, so have taken my business elsewhere.


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## condeesteso (22 Oct 2011)

Hi Karl, and all - worth noting what Felder are doing with the Hammer brand into the U.S., because it's what this should be but in reverse. Hammer is made in Europe, but the U.S. prices are lower than here in the UK... and these are big old boxes to ship! It happens like that because Felder decided to attack the U.S. market and set prices accordingly although I doubt anyone actually makes a loss. I accept the shipping is an issue, but the duty and vat are both based on the shipping value. If something is retailed for $112 in Canada, it probably means the supplier sold it into retail for max $60 (noting there are retail taxes there too).
We are all used to accepting dollars equals pounds (i.e. the U.S price in dollars will probably be the UK price in pounds). That gives enough room for shipping and taxes already. A greater disparity than that suggests to me that something is wrong.


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## beech1948 (22 Oct 2011)

I used to ship products large and small around the world from US to Asia, To UK and also UK to US. So I think I understand a thing or two about factory margins, shipping and the impact of local taxation. I was also responsible for setting prices for Euro based products including the UK.

Some likely probabilities.
1) Shipping should not be more than 3.5% inc insurance from US to UK
2) Factory gate prices are typically around 50% of the US retail costs.
3) Local landing and shipping again about 3%.
4) Import taxes
5) VAT ( but can be reclaimed when item is sold)

Given that the UK postal costs is an extra charge we can discount that.

So I think that a price of about £140 is what it should cost. Somewhere we are being ripped off.

I have not bought anything from Axi for 2 years because they are frequently excessively expensive. I will not buy LN tools in the UK or Europe and will only buy in the US. The UK prices for LV stuff is now at a ridiculous level.

Remember that the European Union has a larger geographic area than the US and has more people. Why then do we still have to suffer UK premiums on prices.

Alan


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## condeesteso (22 Oct 2011)

"Somewhere we are being ripped off."
Exactly Beech, agree totally. I suggest that right at the heart of this is a view held over many years by many in the U.S. that the U.K. is a p*ss-pot market so don't worry. Most UK prices are set based on the US price plus the shipping, Taxes etc and a hassle factor. I mean they are not cost-based, but market-based.
But you are right that Europe as a whole is truly valuable , and also in turn opens up the Middle East and beyond.

If anyone is interested, I have a current example of U.S / U.K. pricing on something quite different. A well-known eye-wear brand in the US (sunglasses then) - typical US retail is $100. Typical UK retail is £100. Landed UK ex-factory, but cleared (i.e. all duty, VAT shipping) is about £28. Out of the factory door US is a mere $29, by the way.
The distributor takes a landed cost £28 and puts out a trade price £48. Retail sells at £100 but 20% is VAT. AND retail won't take it because the margin is too low. They want to sell at £140.
So, your £200 plane has a true value of ... what ???

And if it is true as alleged that Axminster owns Brimark, that would be a conflict of interest. Brimark's job is to distribute. If the main retailer is 'family', then they (the group) take 2 margins, do almost nothing, and fix the price on the way.

Lucky I know a couple of lawyers then (Pedder, home number, now please)... (hammer) (hammer) (hammer)


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## Noel (23 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":1f8jvybl said:


> "Somewhere we are being ripped off."
> Exactly Beech, agree totally. I suggest that right at the heart of this is a view held over many years by many in the U.S. that the U.K. is a p*ss-pot market so don't worry. Most UK prices are set based on the US price plus the shipping, Taxes etc and a hassle factor. I mean they are not cost-based, but market-based.
> But you are right that Europe as a whole is truly valuable , and also in turn opens up the Middle East and beyond.
> 
> ...



A few years ago (07?) Styles & Brown bought Brimar*c* from Martin Brown who is a member here.
Why would there be a conflict of interest? 2 margins? I doubt Axminster see it that way. It's business, the making of money.


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## Vann (23 Oct 2011)

Noel":14q06ola said:


> It's business, the making of money.


And it's our business to protect our hard earned dollars. If we feel the retailer/middleman it taking too much profit, we should protect our own interests and question or look for cheaper ways of buying.

It looks like the retailer is setting the price, not at cost plus a set margin, but at a point where it's just a little more than it would cost you to buy direct - so that it's not worth the hassle of importing yourself. 

Good business? Maybe.

A slap in the face? Definitely !

Cheers, Vann.


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## Modernist (23 Oct 2011)

Vann":y08ggkka said:


> Noel":y08ggkka said:
> 
> 
> > It's business, the making of money.
> ...



It's called marketing


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## JonnyD (23 Oct 2011)

If you go to a local Brimarc Dealer rather than Axminster there are deals to be had. Ive just bought a LA jack and LA smoother and got a decent discount so theres a good margin for the retailer i assume.

cheers

Jon


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## Karl (23 Oct 2011)

JonnyD":31f5ctpm said:


> If you go to a local Brimarc Dealer rather than Axminster there are deals to be had. Ive just bought a LA jack and LA smoother and got a decent discount so theres a good margin for the retailer i assume.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jon



I normally get 15% off Veritas stuff at my local dealer, so it's worth asking.

That kind of discount makes it cheaper to buy this new plane in the UK rather than importing it (assuming you pay the customs on import).

Cheers

Karl


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## clk230 (23 Oct 2011)

all this moaning about uk prices , Veritas is a premium brand if its priced lower in the uk will this de-value the brand name ?
All niche markets have to rely on higher prices and/or higher margins if your a hobby woodworker then a premium brand is pure luxury if your a professional then is £200 expensiive how long will it last how many jobs will you make money from using it.
If the price was reduced from £200 to £140 tomorrow i would bet that the retailers wouldn't sell the extra amount of planes needed to make up the short fall in profit , this could then have a knock on affect were the brand isn't seen a viable in the uk it would also force people like WH to lower the prices of their quangshang range good for the short term as we get bargains ,but the suppliers/retailers won't be able to survive on the new prices as long term the volume of sales would still remain the same.

i would love to see one of you moaners start up a tool shop and see how long you survive on your 'fair' prices.

just to add about the conflict of interests never heard so much b******** its called good business


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## Jacob (23 Oct 2011)

:lol: 
£140? Still too much for me. Another flashy toy which nobody actually needs


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## Harbo (23 Oct 2011)

So you keep telling us! 
Yawn


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## dodi (23 Oct 2011)

Both Brimarc and Axminxter have the same mailing address:
Axminster Power Tool Centre Unit 10 Weycroft Avenue, Axminster, Devon EX13 5PH
and
BriMarc Tools & Machinery Unit 10 Weycroft Ave, Axminster Devon EX13 5PH

So I assume that either Axminster owns Brimarc or Brimarc owns Axminster


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## clk230 (23 Oct 2011)

doesn't matter who owns who this has nothing todo with anything !


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## studders (23 Oct 2011)

Quite simple for me really, whatever it is....

I want one - I buy one

or

I want one - but I aint paying that much.


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## condeesteso (23 Oct 2011)

I promise this is my last post on this topic, but to have one of my points described simply as b******* without any supporting counter-argument seems a little strong to me.
If asked I could explain very concisely why a retailer owning a distributor raises a conflict of interest. And 'it's marketing'. No. Pricing is just one small part of marketing, the 'management' of retail pricing is one small sub-topic within that.
And just so we all know, I have the highest regard indeed for Veritas products, and I am also a loyal customer of Axminster.


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## clk230 (23 Oct 2011)

sorry if i offended you , so can you explain very concisely how on earth its a conflict of interests i will be very interested in your explanation.

oscar


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## condeesteso (23 Oct 2011)

Hi Oscar. I was a little upset but I'm OK now, thank you (and I mean that). But I made a promise and I stand by that.


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## Modernist (23 Oct 2011)

condeesteso":3oc9hzip said:


> . And 'it's marketing'. No. Pricing is just one small part of marketing, the 'management' of retail pricing is one small sub-topic within that.



Agreed, I didn't say otherwise.


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## clk230 (23 Oct 2011)

no worries Douglas ,we'll agree to disagree on the conlict of interests .

on a lighter note can freehand sharpen veritas planes ! ONLY JOKING


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## condeesteso (23 Oct 2011)

Oscar... we're off-topic now so I'm within the promise. I can, but I can't speak for Freehand as I don't know him.


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## [email protected] (24 Oct 2011)

Hello everyone,

Just to confirm the price is £210.06inc VAT, sorry for our earlier pricing error and thank you for bringing it to our attention.

Regards,

Richard.


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## Karl (24 Oct 2011)

For a minute I thought you were posting to tell us it had been reduced to £140


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2011)

clk230":1kyr8341 said:


> ..... can freehand sharpen veritas planes ....


No problem. I do my LV la smoother freehand, with a camber. 
It's A2 steel apparently. I haven't tried a shallow angle below 30º so haven't experienced the crumble effect yet!


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## Martin Brown (24 Oct 2011)

My name is Martin Brown and I responsible for BriMarc, and the UK marketing of Veritas.

Sorry that I am a little late in joining this discussion, furthermore apologies that we made such a mistake on this plane. It was simply human error, I have checked.

BriMarc is wholly owned by Axminster, and we wholesale planes to other retailers (the ones referred to above who offer good local service and more). We have been owned by Axminster for many years.

There is no conflict of interest in my view. Just ask one of our retailers who benefit from the support we give Veritas. We have a good track record of fine customer service and knowledge. The world is full of companies that import/manufacture, sell direct, wholesale to other retailers and are responsible for marketing. Apple is a good example.

Please do PM me if you have any other comments on BriMarc. I am not available on Wednesday as the whole BriMarc sales team have a full day working with the new Veritas lines. 

Martin


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## Martingchapman (24 Oct 2011)

I never thought when I raised this post to get it "off my chest" that it would have raised such an interesting discussion.

Also it is good to see direct feedback from both BriMarc and Axminster employees, thanks for chipping in guys.

Thanks to everyone who has commented, both positive and negative, everyone has/is entitled to an opinion.

Martin (not the one from BriMarc).


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (24 Oct 2011)

For those interested in the plane rather than the price, I have a review here ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... other.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Modernist (24 Oct 2011)

Tempting!


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2011)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> For those interested in the plane rather than the price, I have a review here ...
> 
> http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... other.html
> 
> ...


OMG Derek there's a lot of shiny stuff on view there. Not to mention the BKs* :roll: . Is wood cheap down under? I do hope so!

*BK = brass knob


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## Jacob (24 Oct 2011)

> Martin
> 
> _________________
> If there is something we should be selling then please PM me. No promises but we always look at everything.



Yes - tools made in Sheffield. Tell them what they need to do to compete and they (and you) are on to a big winner without a doubt.


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## Martin Brown (24 Oct 2011)

Send me a PM. We would love more UK made stuff.


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## beech1948 (24 Oct 2011)

Well I'd like to keep this thread to be about the price of this new plane.

Canada £112
UK £210.

I could almost buy a plane ticket and go to Toronto on the cheap ( £85 at last check on air fares 20 minutes ago.), and be back here with it in my pocket for the difference in prices.

I'd like to know why there is a £100 gap between these prices. And I'm looking for a sophisticated explanation not simply the usual whitewash mumble about taxes and transport which passes for prior explanations. 

Don't worry I can understand it after 35 yrs experience in pricing from factory input costs in UK/US to final price anywhere in Europe.

Won't someone like Mr. Brown from Brimarc give me an explanation. Even by PM.

Alan


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## Martin Brown (24 Oct 2011)

PM sent.


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## Harbo (24 Oct 2011)

Beech don't forget you have to pay sales tax of 13% from the shop on top of the $179. The £210 includes VAT.

£85 return to Toronto - whose airline is that?
Cheapest flights I ever came across where with AirTransat and nowhere as cheap as that?

Rod


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## clk230 (24 Oct 2011)

if you don't like the price don't buy it , if you think Canada is cheaper go live there but then you'll only moan that a loaf of bread is apenny cheaper in the uk.

prices are different all over the world for different items


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## Vann (25 Oct 2011)

clk230":1gncu1oc said:


> ...if you think Canada is cheaper go live there...


 We know Canada is cheaper (for Veritas planes). That's what this whole thread is about. What's wrong with a visit (and pick up a plane or two while we're there)? Or we could purchase one on-line in US dollars, in which case it's still cheaper, but will we then have to live in the States? :wink: 

Why so grumpy about it?

Cheers, Vann.


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## clk230 (25 Oct 2011)

yes we know veritas are cheaper in Canada if everyone buys them from Canada then no more veritas in uk is that what we want , for my explanation on what will happen if they are sold cheaper in the uk please see my earlier post.

All these sort of posts do is make people think that the uk is a rip off, we should try and support the uk market were possible i can't believe for all the praise Axminster/Brimarc get on here that people begrudge them trying to make money the good stocks excellent service they give don't come for free.

If a sheffield made tool of equal quality was available for say £175 would you still moan that the veritas is only £140 in Canada ?

No body has explained why they believe theres a conflict of interests in the axminster/brimarc either


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## studders (25 Oct 2011)

clk230":k9suei6h said:


> All these sort of posts do is make people think that the uk is a rip off, ......



There's a reason for that.


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## LuptonM (25 Oct 2011)

The veritas is £112 in Canada. The £140 figure is about what I think it should be sold in the UK for. Obviously it should be sold for more in the UK but not for twice as much


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## beech1948 (25 Oct 2011)

clk230,

You said >>>if you think Canada is cheaper go live there but then you'll only moan that a loaf of bread is apenny cheaper in the uk. <<<

I'm going to treat that as just a brain fart from you. If all you can consider is the attitude of a "penny off a loaf" then you miss the point and clearly don't have the experience to comprehend the issues as well as putting words and meanings that I did not write into your message. 

It's not about price in the sense of looking for the cheapest.
It's not about trying to complain about Brimarc/APTC service levels, which are excellent.
It's not even about saving me money.

It's about reasonable price differences and why is the UK price so far above other countries and VALUE. 

A Veritas No 4 smoother. I hope a common, readily available plane is priced as follows:-

Canada/US £146 -£129 Lee Valley
Germany £207 -£68 Dick
Sydney, Oz £198 -£77 Carb-a-tec
UK £275 £0 APTC
Japan £294 +£19 No equivalent alphabet

All include local taxes, purchase taxes and VAT or equivalent. At currency conversions for today.

UK and Germany are close together geographically and have similar tax levels eg: VAT. Sydney was a surprise. Japan was not...I lived there for 4 years and the cost of living was always a shock but frequently the quality of the purchase was outstanding.

So your "penny saved attitude" is really £129 pounds of difference ( so at Canadian prices thats 2 and a bit No 4s). I'd like to know why. Sure Brimarc need to make a profit to survive. But that US/Canadian price includes a factory profit, a distributor profit and transportation over long distances. Veritas is the manufacturer/distributor, Lee Valley the retailer in Canada.

Did you know that a Clifton No 4 made in the high cost UK was £216. Just as good if not better than Veritas and LN and made in the UK, by UK employees, with UK capital and UK management. Why don't we see more of them I wonder. 

Alan


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## Karl (25 Oct 2011)

Alan - I think you need to calm down a bit :lol: 

I don't understand your prices - what is the first line "£124-151" ?

The other prices - what is the second price?

Doesn't make sense - to me at least.

Karl


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## Karl (25 Oct 2011)

Sorry Alan, got it. It's the price movement from the UK "Base". Except the Aus figure is wrong.

Cheers

Karl


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## beech1948 (26 Oct 2011)

Karl,
Sory for confusion. UKworkshop does not support the formatting I put in which would be clearer. Yes. I caught the error re Oz - -should be £77 not £79. Must have been an old person's moment there.

Alan


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## Harbo (26 Oct 2011)

Alan a few other flaws in your calculations 
The LV US$ price is their pretax Export price which does not include postage, duties etc.
Buy the plane in LV's shop in Toronto, it would cost you CDN$199 plus 13% taxes which works out as £146.
I cannot explain the price differences from country to country but it applies to lots of other commodities too.
Anybody who has travelled in the States could not help noticing how much cheaper cars, houses, electrical goods etc etc are over there?
But with sales and price information available on the web it's down to choice as to what and where you buy?
If I was intending to buy the No.4 then the choice would be from Germany - cheap postage and no duties!

Rod


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## beech1948 (26 Oct 2011)

Harbo,
I just checked the LV prices again and your right. My apologies. That will teach me to do this when stuck in routine meetings still got to do something to prevent me dropping off to sleep.

I edited the message to show correct prices.

Alan


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## Jacob (26 Oct 2011)

Harbo":14ihknat said:


> Alan a few other flaws in your calculations
> The LV US$ price is their pretax Export price which does not include postage, duties etc.
> Buy the plane in LV's shop in Toronto, it would cost you CDN$199 plus 13% taxes which works out as £146.
> I cannot explain the price differences from country to country but it applies to lots of other commodities too.
> ...


So it's not worth a day trip to Toronto then? Pity, I was looking for a good excuse. :roll: yawn

(Wake me up when they are giving out free samples). :shock:


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## pedder (3 Nov 2011)

Edit: this foolowing is the price for the new Small bevel up smoother. Sorry!

FYI
197,22 *€* ( £171?)

to your doorstep in the UK at http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/cgi-bin/sh ... 1320314753 (UPS/Creditcard)

Cheers Pedder


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## [email protected] (3 Nov 2011)

Hello everyone,

Just to let you know this plane is now on offer in our November top tools. £149.94 inc VAT. It is also being supplied with a free Veritas Plane Sock.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-veri ... for=952924

Regards,

Richard.


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## Martingchapman (3 Nov 2011)

Would it be vain of me to think this is (maybe in part) due to this thread?

Could not resist so have just ordered one!

Martin.


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## Harbo (3 Nov 2011)

Well no arguments about excessive mark ups at that price? 
Definitely no need for Jacob to go to Canada now  

Rod


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## condeesteso (3 Nov 2011)

A cynic will question before taking the spoils. It suddenly goes from 210 to 150. So who's taking the hit?
...And for clk's benefit it isn't actually a 'hit', that's just a casual term for a margin reduction.

[and a p.s. edit: is that just Axminster or across all UK retail? I only ask because it helps the cynic understand.]


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## Jacob (3 Nov 2011)

Is there some sort of cunning plot going on? Seems to be a very long thread about sweet F.A. :roll: 
As far as I understand it the "hit" has already been taken by those who bought it at the _extremely_ high price. Another hit will be taken by the larger number who buy it at the lower, merely _very_ high, price.
I won't be buying one myself until they come down to less than £30, like (nearly) all my other planes, probably not even then, so they can't hit me!


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## Karl (3 Nov 2011)

Jacob":2mg8lcok said:


> Is there some sort of cunning plot going on? Seems to be a very long thread about sweet F.A. :roll:



Given the amount of balls which is spouted on some sharpening threads (most notably that started by Willyjoy), I thought this one was pretty reasonable.


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## condeesteso (3 Nov 2011)

Jacob":1vue825j said:


> Is there some sort of cunning plot going on? Seems to be a very long thread about sweet F.A. :roll:
> As far as I understand it the "hit" has already been taken by those who bought it at the _extremely_ high price.



Dear Jacob - you just gave yourself away. If that is as far as you understand it, then you don't. Stick to what you are best at... sharpening???

best wishes as ever, D


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## Jacob (3 Nov 2011)

condeesteso":28vnd1qf said:


> Jacob":28vnd1qf said:
> 
> 
> > Is there some sort of cunning plot going on? Seems to be a very long thread about sweet F.A. :roll:
> ...


Is it like freemasonry? Some sort of secret society? Not for everybody?
Don't explain if it's against the rules. :lol:


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## Martin Brown (4 Nov 2011)

Hi I work for BriMarc which is part of the Axminster group.

Please may I clarify the pricing by ourselves on this plane.

Firstly due a human error it was priced incorrectly. Simply a mistake. I am responsible for this and I apologise.

Secondly that error was corrected when this thread brought it to light, thanks to everyone involved.

Prior to both of these facts, and I have personally double checked this, the special price was arranged in conjunction with Veritas before the thread started, and to make certain of this I confirmed the artwork for Top Tools (the launch publication) was with our printers quite some time before the thread. No conspiracy.

We had always planned a more exciting campaign for this launch. Those who know me on this forum will know that I only tell the truth.

This offer is available through all Veritas outlets. Go to http://www.brimarc.com/stockists to find your nearest Veritas dealer. Please note they will not have stock until the 3rd week of November, I will post an update nearer the time for exact release date.

Please PM me if you have any questions.

Martin


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## Martingchapman (4 Nov 2011)

MartinB
Thanks for the honest update.
Yesterday evening I opened the Axminster flyer and there was the plane offer in print, (including the free sock) so the copy must have gone to the printers long before I started this thread :-(

However, I ordered the plane yesterday around midday and it was delivered today - very well packed with free delivery, so well done Axminster, excellent service.

I am at my desk at the moment so will not have chance to use the plane until the weekend but it looks to be very well engineered and is a pleasure to hold.
And for me that is what it is all about.

I have a Record number 3 plane set up as a smoother, bought second hand for about £30.00, which I spent some time fettling and it works pretty well.

However, the Veritas is a different proposition, it is modern, extremely well designed and put together and did I say, a pleasure to hold?
I am a hobby woodworker, I do not have to justify the cost of the plane by how much monetary profit I will make out of owning and using it, rather by how much personal pleasure I will make out of owning and using it.
No one needs the Veritas plane over a good "normal/cheaper" plane, the Veritas plane may perform marginally better than a properly set up "normal/cheaper" plane but not better by the order of magnitude of the additional cost for the Veritas.

However, I will get immeasurable pleasure out of using the Veritas plane, for me it is like a work of art in an engineering sense, but unlike a work of art it is to be used, not just looked at.

The above is a very personal view point.
I like well engineered, top of the range tools, I enjoy using them, it adds to my enjoyment of my hobby (making sawdust).
I am sure there are many readers of this forum who will agree me, and an equal number who will disagree with me.

Fair enough, every ones entitled...........etc.

MartinC


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## condeesteso (4 Nov 2011)

Martin B - if there was ever any doubt, I do have great regard for Veritas products, and have had for a long time. I particularly respect the Veritas commitment to challenge, question and innovate - values which have increasingly set Veritas apart. My ascetic questioning of pricing does not reflect upon the brand in any way. And I appreciate your clear concern and professionalism.
I will undoubtedly purchase Veritas in the future, and will remain a regular customer of Axminster. But some fundamental questions of a commercial nature raised here still remain and will do so I expect. I'm going now (sigh of relief) - and that means clk will never get from me the definitive explanation of the conflict I previously referred to. No loss there.

Best wishes, Martin.


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## clk230 (4 Nov 2011)

thats twice my name has been mentioned if anyone has a problem with what i've posted , please just ask me direct rather than adding silly little comments in a post.


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## Vann (5 Nov 2011)

clk230":22cbe962 said:


> ...if anyone has a problem with what i've posted , please just ask me direct...


I did


Vann":22cbe962 said:


> ...Why so grumpy about it?.


The answer was a bit vague and I still don't see where you're coming from :? ,

Anyway, it still seems odd that the price was originally set at £299 (a mistake apparently); then £210 (confirmed correct); and now £150 with free plane sock and free shipping. Maybe that's a special offer - possibly to make up for the mistake.

It makes no difference to me. If I wanted one (and I don't, though I keep looking at the BUS...) I'd import direct from Lee Valley at $US179 = ~$NZ229 (shipping extra). If I imported from UK it would cost £150 - VAT = £125 = ~$NZ256 (shipping extra) which, at this super introductory price, is still $27 NZD dearer than Lee Valley. Luckily in New Zealand we don't get hit for excise tax and customs duties on small imports and usually don't pay GST (VAT) either.

But what I think condeesteso is saying about conflict, is that both the importer and the retailer are entitled to add a margin for handling, storage, profit, etc. But when the importer and retailer are the same, then picking up two margins while only storing and handling once, is not necessarily fair.

I don't know what I think on that issue #-o 

Cheers, Vann.


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2011)

Can we have a thread about the price of bog rolls? Might liven things up a bit. :lol:


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

Vann, i'm always open to some answering questions, what i don't like is someone saying that thier not going to comment anymore then put snide little remarks mentioning my name in posts ,i just hope know one on here design's , makes and sells thier own products as we can't have a conflict of interests.

Vann you also seem to be stocking the fire on a pricing matter that doesn't even affect you as your in NZ .

Jacob , good idea LOL


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## Tom K (5 Nov 2011)

Jacob":1obyvic3 said:


> Can we have a thread about the price of bog rolls? Might liven things up a bit. :lol:




Oh another witty and helpful post. Thanks C.C

Of course if I were an old pro like you Jacob I could buy one and write it down against my tax bill so it would cost me nothing.


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## Tom K (5 Nov 2011)

clk230":1ktwpdls said:


> Vann, i'm always open to some answering questions, what i don't like is someone saying that thier not going to comment anymore then put snide little remarks mentioning my name in posts ,i just hope know one on here design's , makes and sells thier own products as we can't have a conflict of interests.
> 
> Vann you also seem to be stocking the fire on a pricing matter that doesn't even affect you as your in NZ .
> 
> Jacob , good idea LOL



I think you need to reread some of your own posts.


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

nope. i made my points and asked questions but never got answers.

M&S toilet roll is a bit pricey only buy when they have offers on.


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## condeesteso (5 Nov 2011)

OK, so Oscar wrote "so can you explain very concisely how on earth its a conflict of interests". I refused to for two reasons, the first is that I thought it was obvious (the conflict) and the second was the way your question was phrased gave me good reason to believe you won't listen to a reasoned answer (the phrase 'how on earth').
Anyway, here we go:
First, there are only two price points that matter: the off-the-line 'cost' (just at the moment the box is closed and it's ready to leave the factory door). The second price that matters is the actual price payed by the customer, ex vat (or any local equivalent). The difference between these two will be large, very often a multiple bigger than 5.
The difference is made up of distribution costs (incl duty, insurance etc where applicable) and margins.
Then there is always a supply 'chain', although it can vary in length. That chain divides up the margin, and each part of that chain is trying to take as much of the margin as it can, so they are fighting each other for margin.
A typical chain is manufacturer>distributor>retailer. The manufacturer sells for x (its cost + a margin) to the distributor, and note the distributor is appointed by the manufacturer, normally under contract.
A distributor's job is to distribute the product to as many of the right retailers as it can, at the highest margin it can take. So within the guides set by it's client (the manufacturer) the diistributor is aiming to maximise the volume / margin curve (= max profit). I accept this is a simplification but I'm trying to be concise!
Any single retailer is aiming to take maximum market share at the highest margin it can achieve.
So a retailer is fighting all its competitors (supplied by that distributor of course), and it's fighting the distributor over what total margin is there to be shared out.
That's where file discounts off trade etc come from. That is big retailers using their muscle.
Because the retailer and distributor have opposing trading objectives, where both are owned by one parent there is conflict, and that is so fundamental it cannot ever be designed out. The parent can manage the conflict, but can never delete it - it's simply not possible.


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

i think we'll have to agree to disagree on the conflict of interests , the sole objective of every person/company in the supply chain is to make the maximum they can out of any given product and it really is as simple as that , not really sure you've explained the opposing objectives as they are both trying to maximise profits this is called good business.
Do you disagree with importers or manufacturers selling direct at retail prices if they are not suppling other outlets or is it just when they are distributor and retailer ?

Genuine question what business experience have you got ?


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## Jacob (5 Nov 2011)

clk230":1mvuvcwt said:


> nope. i made my points and asked questions but never got answers.
> 
> M&S toilet roll is a bit pricey only buy when they have offers on.


I've just been in the Co-op but I forgot to look!
I'll go back immediately. I think Wilco's might be slightly dearer but the Co-op have a more interesting range.
You have to watch those eco jumbo packs - sometimes the rolls are smaller! Cunning. :roll:


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

i just measured the width of the M&S and its 0.0000000000000001 mm less than the width of Andrex , were will this end .


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## condeesteso (5 Nov 2011)

I agree clk:
"the sole objective of every person/company in the supply chain is to make the maximum they can out of any given product"
This is correct, and there is one cake to slice, which is the net retail less all costs. And the separate parts in the supply chain compete against each other to get the biggest slice they can. Hence distributor and retailer are both fighting for the biggest slice... conflict. And the distributor is trying to get the product into all the competitor retailers.
As for business experience, quite a lot but I'm not here to publish my cv. But just one example as it is quite relevant to this.
Quite a while ago I worked at HMV Retail (back when it was No1 music retailer in the UK, and I had nothing at all to do with it's current woes :lol: ).
At the time HMV was owned by Thorn EMI, and EMI was one of 5 major record labels.
Once a year we had to go through trading term negotiations with all 5, and the other 4 always accused HMV of treating EMI better, or receiving favourable terms etc.
I was the one who had to put the arguments to the other 4 (Polygram, BMG, CBS/Sony and Warners) that the relationship with EMI was exactly the same as the other 4.
Did they actually buy the arguments... probably not, I'd say they tolerated them as HMV was too big to push around. Did I buy the arguments - course not (hammer) 

So clk... don't ask personal questions, well structured logic backed with knowledge should be enough.


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

Douglas , its an open forum if i choose to ask personal questions i can thank you very much , if anyone chooses not to answer them then fine , i notice you didn't answer my other question.
I confess to know little about the music industry but i'm guessing the trading terms include retail space allocation & yes maybe pricing of competing media (am i right in thinking some records by the same artist may be distrubed by several record labels)so yes i can see a worry over conflicting interests in this situation , but i really don't see any conflict in the Veritas situation.

As long as the retailers are able to earn a standard mark-up (relevant to the industry) , charge the same retail prices as Axminster and are able to pull from the same stock then there are no conflicts .IMO

oscar


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## Vann (5 Nov 2011)

clk230":2eeausrq said:


> Vann you also seem to be stocking the fire on a pricing matter that doesn't even affect you as your in NZ .


I'm still entitled to express an opinion in a discussion on the principles of what constitutes reasonable retail margins. While I wouldn't purchase this particular plane from a UK retailer (the extra step in the supply chain makes it less economical to do so), I have purchased some UK manufactured hand tools from the UK. I do have an interest in this discussion.

condeesteco refers to the various parties in the supply chain each fighting for their margin. There's one more player in the line - me and you(*) - and I'm fighting to protect my margin. If I feel that the retailer/wholesaler is trying to get their hands on more than a fair share of my funds, I'll try to avoid them.

* normally referred to as the consumer - but we don't really "consume" things like planes. We either break them, or sell them on e-pay 60 years later (or in some cases break them *and* sell them on e-pay...) (hammer) 

Oh, and isn't it interesting that sometimes it's cheaper to buy two 4-packs of bog rolls than a single 8-pack. You'd have thought that the supply chain would have reduced costs for the single 8-pack. But then it's not really what happens with the supply chain that matters with bog rolls - it's what happens when you pull the other chain...

Cheers, Vann.


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

what a retailer or wholesaler decides to earn out of the customer on non essential iems is upto them and none of our business. IMO

i'm sure if we asked how much 10 different members would charge to make the same item ,we would get a multitude of different answers would the highest price be a rip off , how do we decide a fair price/margin, who are we to tell someone they should only earn £x out of something.

all we can do is vote with our wallets and decide if that item is value to us and that is only something the individual can answer.


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## Tom K (5 Nov 2011)

clk230":ikol3fu4 said:


> what a retailer or wholesaler decides to earn out of the customer on non essential iems is upto them and none of our business. IMO
> 
> i'm sure if we asked how much 10 different members would charge to make the same item ,we would get a multitude of different answers would the highest price be a rip off , how do we decide a fair price/margin, who are we to tell someone they should only earn £x out of something.
> 
> all we can do is vote with our wallets and decide if that item is value to us and that is only something the individual can answer.




So you spend time reading and posting on an internet discussion forum to promote the view that discussion is pointless?


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

Tom , anything of value to say or are you just trolling


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## Tom K (5 Nov 2011)

clk230":mml8a80i said:


> Tom , anything of value to say or are you just trolling



Pretty much what I was asking you Oscar


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

Tom , i made what i would say are valid points ,its an internet forum were you get different opinoins and discussions which ,you seem to have just made some one liners without really discussing , agreeing or disagreeing with anyone.
the OP was about the price of a handplane it took a turn into discussing the wholesaler of such which i have entered into have you ?


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## Tom K (5 Nov 2011)

clk230":27e5259y said:


> Tom , i made what i would say are valid points ,its an internet forum were you get different opinoins and discussions which ,you seem to have just made some one liners without really discussing , agreeing or disagreeing with anyone.
> the OP was about the price of a handplane it took a turn into discussing the wholesaler of such which i have entered into have you ?



Sorry Oscar, I thought you were cackling with C.C and talking about bog rolls :roll: 
I must have missed your point along the way could you explain in a detailed and concise manner.


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## studders (5 Nov 2011)

clk230":2ayqetcn said:


> what a retailer or wholesaler decides to earn out of the customer on non essential iems is upto them and none of our business. IMO



None of our Business?? Of course it is, _we_ are the customer, it is plain common sense to research what is a reasonable price to be paying, and that involves what the retailer charges, and thus, earns from a sale.


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## clk230 (5 Nov 2011)

well Studders, we'll have to agree to disagree yes research what you want to pay but when it comes to how much someone is making from your purchase then i'll stand by what i say .


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## Vann (6 Nov 2011)

clk230":193t1tjj said:


> what a retailer or wholesaler decides to earn out of the customer on non essential iems is upto them and none of our business. IMO.


That puts someone with a monopoly in a very envious position. They can charge what they like and we have no right to question :!: 

As studders points out, we are the customer. We are parting with our hard earned(*) money and have _*every*_ right to question margins - not that we can necessarily do anything about these margins.

*unless we also have a monopoly and don't particularly _earn_ our income  .

Cheers, Vann.


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## clk230 (6 Nov 2011)

As a potential customer you have several decisions to make , do you need/want the item , is the price value to you , can you afford it , what the dealers is making out of you shouldn't come into it we know thier there to make money , you are deciding on wether to purchase an item NOT how much you think a fair profit margin is for the dealer.
The problem is when you question the margins is that you are making assumptions about costs that are probably incorrect .

Monopolies are dangerous but a real monopoly can only really exist in essiantial items , as if you don't actually need the item then its still you the consumer that makes the decision to buy or not to buy.


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## Tom K (6 Nov 2011)

clk230":1n4s95ie said:


> As a potential customer you have several decisions to make , do you need/want the item , is the price value to you , can you afford it , what the dealers is making out of you shouldn't come into it we know thier there to make money , you are deciding on wether to purchase an item NOT how much you think a fair profit margin is for the dealer.
> The problem is when you question the margins is that you are making assumptions about costs that are probably incorrect .
> 
> Monopolies are dangerous but a real monopoly can only really exist in essiantial items , as if you don't actually need the item then its still you the consumer that makes the decision to buy or not to buy.



When you question the margins it is to discover if any assumptions you might make are correct or not. It is very much a part of everyday business transactions to question profit margins we all do it. None of us like being ripped off.


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## clk230 (6 Nov 2011)

its about the percieved value of any given item to you ! if an item is say £50 and you believe that tobe its worth to you then does it matter if it cost the dealer £1 or £49 

so what in you opinion is a fair profit margin ?


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## studders (6 Nov 2011)

Exact amounts/margins are not relevant, it is comparative amounts that are important. As in this case we know what the going rate is in the country of origin and others, we can then compare the amount being asked here and decide if it seems fair or not; which was the whole point of the original post.


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## clk230 (6 Nov 2011)

Studders i see exactly were your coming from and its always tricky comparing worldwide prices as you've got different market forces in different countries ,

like anything for sale its upto the individual to decide its value somee may think its a bargain others expensive.


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## studders (6 Nov 2011)

clk230":12tqsv7l said:


> ..... its always tricky comparing worldwide prices as you've got different market forces in different countries ....


That's quite true, and has to be borne in mind, the USA probably has a far greater volume of sales than the UK, and that is going to affect the selling price.
Having said that, if an individual can buy a single unit from overseas and have it shipped back here for significantly less than buying the same item here then, something would appear to be wrong somewhere along the line, and excess profit is usually the main suspect.


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## Tom K (6 Nov 2011)

clk230":8sic9sgq said:


> its about the percieved value of any given item to you ! if an item is say £50 and you believe that tobe its worth to you then does it matter if it cost the dealer £1 or £49
> 
> so what in you opinion is a fair profit margin ?



It was never about the perceived value the entire thread was about the margin.
We don't know how much profit is being made but from what I have been told by my son in law (Manager of a big box store) mark up can be as much as a 1000% on many tools.
I don't suppose for a minute that Veritas planes have that sort of margin but they aren't stocked for kudos and as was stated you can negotiate discounts.


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## clk230 (6 Nov 2011)

yeap i know the OP was about the price difference between different countries ,which now the plane is on offer means no difference , but as most internet posts go off tangent this one did aswell.

the main point i have a problem is that some believe a conflict exists with brimarc/axminster in answering that other points have been raised by me and others.


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