# Set of circular segmented steps - FINISHED!



## RogerS (31 Dec 2019)

The initial design ideas and exploratory thoughts/problems etc can be found here

This project is definitely something you wouldn't want to tackle as a paid job. Way too many if's and but's and 'How the hell am I going to do this?'. A lot of interdependencies affecting the sequence and timing of the work.

First off is getting the sub-frame sorted. Starts of with the bottom piece fixed in position. A simple job until you find that in the time-honoured tradition of the builder who resurrected our wreck back in 1975 for the then-owner, his refusal to ever use a spirit level continued.

So that bottom piece has to be wedged, glued and screwed in place to level it up.


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## RogerS (31 Dec 2019)

Managed to get out into the workshop yesterday to veneer the arc for the bottom step in the vacuum press. Not used it since we moved three years ago. Ran it up and it seemed to suck OK. Veneer pieces all cut. A nice bit of veneer for the top and some constructional veneer for underneath to bring the overall thickness to that of the floorboards that will be inset. Bought a sheet from Capital Crispin at an astronomical price TBH and glad it's underneath as there's virtually no 'figuring' of any description. Maybe I'll try Mundy's next time.

First time veneering something as thin and curvy...bit of a 'mares TBH. Stuck it in the bag and turned the pump on and waited. And waited. And waited. Air was going out but not very fast. Cranked it up (or so I thought) but after 15 minutes I could see that it wasn't going to do the biz anytime soon and so I invoked MPM (Mad Panic Mode) .





We shall see tomorrow. 

In the meantime I investigated the pump and discovered that numbnuts here had misunderstood the scale and had tweaked down to minimum suck. So with a bit of luck it will be OK for the other stuff. Nonetheless I will try and do a trial run before committing.


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## RogerS (31 Dec 2019)

'Compulsory' holiday got in the way of much progress :evil: 

But tolerably pleased with the veneer after the earlier panic. Obviously still some finessing to do.



 



 

Attention now turning to making the vertical veneered curved panels. I think the two 'critical' points for fixing are at the extremes. As per this diagram -



 

Proposing to have blocks glued and screwed at each end and also others distributed around the periphery. The blocks will be then screwed into large pieces of timber (fitted radially) that are themselves fixed to the bottom baseboard. The edge of the bottom baseboard will be glued to the bottom of the vertical panel. The blocks at the extreme ends will be double the height that's needed thus allowing me to screw a long batten across the chord to keep the vertical panels curved and in place while everything (glue etc) goes off.

Once the vertical panel has been fixed to the bottom baseboard but before it's all set, glue the edge of the top baseboard and push that into position to give as tight a fit as I can manage to the top of the vertical panel.

So basically that vertical panel is glued all the way round at the top and bottom. Plus intermediate blocks screwed to it prior to veneering that are fixed to the radials. My one concern though is this. Seems to me that most of the stress is at the two extremities by the wall. Just glueing blocks won't work as the MDF will delaminate I think and spring back hence small screws through the MDF into those blocks prior to veneering. Just wondering about them pulling through the MDF.

I've put the MDF (6mm) in tension around a former to encourage it to stay bent. Don't think I can wet it 'cos it's MDF.


 

Any thoughts ?


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## profchris (31 Dec 2019)

I've made a guitar case from 6mm MDF, which bent fine over a hot pipe. I reckon heating the MDF with a heat gun (to Ouch hot but below scorched, practice on an offcut) will make it take up the curve.

But it will soften your glue joints, which will harden again but be a little weaker. If you haven't glued it yet, that's my solution. If you have, you'll need to take a view on the glue question.


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## RogerS (1 Jan 2020)

Many thanks for that suggestion. Not heard of that before.


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## RogerS (6 Jan 2020)

I’ve had two suggestions for ‘easing’ the curve on the 6mm MDF risers : cutting a load of kerfs (RogerM TWH2) and using a hot air gun (ProfChris UKW). Since it’s over 2m long, the thought of cutting all those kerfs didn’t appeal and so I gave the hot air gun a go and it worked a treat. You have to be careful not to get too close to any strapping



 

The allen key underneath is to spread the strap load evenly over the width. I’d noticed that without it, the MDF was starting to distort under the pressure of the strap.

Still thinking about (a) how to fix the riser to the subframe and (b) keeping it bent between taking it out of the vacuum press and fixing it to the subframe.

The solution to (a) is several blocks glued and screwed to the riser ahead of the veneering..since I don’t really want screw heads in the veneer !! 


 
In an ideal world with a level floor I might have considered making the bottom step as a unit, gluing and screwing the riser on and then veneering but, as mentioned earlier, the floor isn’t level and I would like a nice tight fit down to the floor with the riser so it’s going to be …(a) fit the bottom subframe to the floor (b) veneer (c) fit the riser to the subframe. 

The solution to (b) is to have the two blocks at the lefthand and righthand extremes (where the riser meets the wall) extra tall and then have a plywood bar between the two. Using two screws at each end minimises any tendency for the riser to skew. Thus …



 

This was Plan A. It lasted two whole days.

Remember I’d not done any veneering for over two years and had forgotten what little I knew. First thing was to check the pump was OK and that this time I’d set the ‘suck’ to the right level. It’s also a damn great bag. Test 1…put the riser in the bag but without veneer or glue, started the suck 



 

Not much happened. Then … I found out that it also helps to actually fit the vacuum connector on properly.  

Test 2…well on the way. Success. 

 

What next ? I remembered some of that breather membrane needs to go in but I couldn’t remember where it should go …alongside the workpiece ? On top of the veneer ? Did I have to moisten the veneer ? Did some reading around, spoke to a few folk. Membrane goes on top of the caul. Caul ? So thought to use some 6mm MDF as a caul. But speaking to Steve Maskery, he rightly pointed out ‘Why fight 6mm MDF…why not get some 3mm hardboard or picture backing board ?’. He was bang on the money. 

Did you know that you can roll up 3mm hardboard and stick it in the back of your car ? No, I didn’t either until yesterday.

Then the thought struck me…looking at that photo…I couldn’t see how it was going to work properly. Surely the underside of the riser needs a better support. Or does the vacuum ‘wrap-around’ as it were and provide equal pressure on the underside? Would it all twist and stretch out of recognition once I’d fully applied the vacuum ?

More Googling…more looking at Youtube. Couldn’t find anyone daft enough to be attempting what I was doing but gut feel suggested that belt and braces dictated a decent support underneath. So unscrew the bottom panel of the subframe from the floor, take that and the upper subframe panel back into the workshop. Screw the riser using those blocks onto the bottom panel …fudge fixing the upper panel fitting all together into some semblance of a support et voila.



 

Turn on the vacuum pump.

I’d knocked off as many sharp corners as I could and added padding as I didn’t want to tear the bag. 





Even then, I think I could have provided more padding. 







 

Doing this has also highlighted one thing…namely that glueing the top of the riser to the upper subframe panel is going to be challenging given the gaps…they will pull in but how ? 



 

I have a cunning plan but that will have to wait.

Oh yes…that scream you heard this afternoon? That was me realising I’d been a muppet because when I went to apply the veneer to the freshly glued surface, it was then that this eejit had cut it 3” too short. That’s something else to sort out. But we are making progress.


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## doctor Bob (6 Jan 2020)

I'm either missing something or you have way over complicated that.


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## RogerS (6 Jan 2020)

doctor Bob":2u7341c6 said:


> I'm either missing something or you have way over complicated that.



Probably the latter or perhaps I've not explained things very well. Would welcome any suggestions. You've been at this way longer than I !! Happy New Year, btw.


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2020)

RogerS":3dgai7mj said:


> doctor Bob":3dgai7mj said:
> 
> 
> > I'm either missing something or you have way over complicated that.
> ...


Said it before will say it again; simplest would be to modify the very commonplace trad detailing of a bull nosed step. You'd have to look in the older books for info as there seems to be little on line (lost art?).
The essential detail is the curved riser constructed from a solid board with the curved part reduced to a thickish veneer but the ends left intact for locating to a made-up backing block. Various crafty fixings here - bevelled half dovetail and folding wedges etc. It wouldn't need steaming or pre-bending but a quick soak in hot water would be enough to help fit it.
The 'veneer' nowadays more easily done with saw kerfs instead.
The whole riser plus block (s) would be a unit and the boards for the treads simply laid on. The blocks quite substantial made up of layers of 2" timber
It's on page 93 of vol3 of WB McKay 1954. May not be in later editions, but will be in Ellis etc and many older books.
I've done it once! Worked fine, a bit of a challenge but nothing went wrong. I've got some snaps will post if I can find them.
PS you are getting closer to the idea in your pencilled diagram above. The blocks would be much more massive than anything you have shown in your pics. The curved risers would have no screws, nails or other fixings visible on the face


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## RogerS (7 Jan 2020)

Looking good


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## AndyT (7 Jan 2020)

I realise this is probably way too late to be any use, but I have only just remembered where I saw someone else doing something a bit like this. It was Mitch Peacock, on YouTube. He's a British woodworker who works commercially, has done hundreds of videos, but seems to not get talked about on here very often. I can't remember how he did his big curved step but it had some similarities to yours and might be interesting to watch.

This is part 1 of 5 short videos. 

[youtube]8gLKfamfcyo[/youtube]


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## RogerS (7 Jan 2020)

Oh cracker, Andy....Even if it's too late, still interesting to watch.


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## RogerS (10 Jan 2020)

So, Doctor Bob, not going to give us all the benefit of your experience ?


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## RogerS (10 Jan 2020)

Jacob":3f21dmq5 said:


> The essential detail is the curved riser constructed from a solid board with the curved part reduced to a thickish veneer but the ends left intact for locating to a made-up backing block. Various crafty fixings here - bevelled half dovetail and folding wedges etc. It wouldn't need steaming or pre-bending but a quick soak in hot water would be enough to help fit it.
> The 'veneer' nowadays more easily done with saw kerfs instead....



Interesting idea. Curious to know more. I don't have that book to hand.

What thickness board are you suggesting ? How thick is "thickish" ? Not sure about this backing block


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## Jacob (10 Jan 2020)

RogerS":8ers1aex said:


> Jacob":8ers1aex said:
> 
> 
> > The essential detail is the curved riser constructed from a solid board with the curved part reduced to a thickish veneer but the ends left intact for locating to a made-up backing block. Various crafty fixings here - bevelled half dovetail and folding wedges etc. It wouldn't need steaming or pre-bending but a quick soak in hot water would be enough to help fit it.
> ...


You need to look at the old books WBMcKay as mentioned above. Or "Joinery &Carpentry" ed. Greenhalgh Vol 3 shows very clearly how to do a bullnose step with a much tighter radius than your proposal. You'd have to adapt their processes to your design. The most obvious thing you'd do differently is to kerf the board instead of "reducing to a stout veneer" as Greenhalgh terms it - we have handy table saws available for work earlier done with hand tools.
I'll do a photo of the pages later.
PS or any of those old books on Stairs and handrails. All sorted - no need to reinvent the wheel.
https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/rare ... YYQAvD_BwE


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## RogerS (10 Jan 2020)

Jacob":12rbhru2 said:


> RogerS":12rbhru2 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":12rbhru2 said:
> ...



Thanks, Jacob..will look forward to the photos.


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## doctor Bob (10 Jan 2020)

RogerS":1dqwv5ak said:


> So, Doctor Bob, not going to give us all the benefit of your experience ?



Sorry, not following the thread, just nipped in.
rip of 10mm veneer board bent around.......................
if it's over 2.4m then a rip of 3050mm board 
bend to that radius no problem.

you seem to be doing a slendid job, just seems amazingly complicated putting stuff that big into vacuum bags. There is no right or wrong way provided you acheive your goal and your happy with it.


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## RogerS (10 Jan 2020)

doctor Bob":39y9nlmy said:


> RogerS":39y9nlmy said:
> 
> 
> > So, Doctor Bob, not going to give us all the benefit of your experience ?
> ...



Thanks Bob...can you bend 10mm veneer board over those radii ? And don't you run the risk of the veneer splitting due to the tight bend ?

Also sourcing veneer boards up here a bit iffy. But the most important of all, Chief Designer likes to see what she's getting ! I had euro walnut veneer in stock !


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## Jacob (10 Jan 2020)

I wouldn't use manufactured veneered board - veneers can be paper thin and I imagine they'd break. Use solid wood. This was done with redwood and it was bendy enough to bend under its own weight. Your shallow radius would be no problem at all
Found the snaps! This is for a double ended bull nose step with a 180 turn at each end. Self explanatory. If you get the kerfing right and it bends up tight you can squirt glue down the slots.

























Mods - I take this opportunity to say what a pain in the rrs the forum is in terms of uploading images and attachments. Really inefficient and tedious. The old system was much better.
And I don't agree to the terms about rights, at the bottom of the page. "As otherwise stated" - copyright for everything I've ever posted on here is mine alone.


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## RogerS (10 Jan 2020)

Thanks Jacob. An interesting approach.

EDIT: How much material did you have left after cutting the kerfs ? Looks like only a few mm.


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## RogerS (10 Jan 2020)

Thursday

I was planning to work on the riser readying it for finishing but discovered that the veneer had lifted up slightly and buckled right at the far end and so that needed fixing but no further work due to glue setting. This is the main niggle of this project...too many dependencies, waiting for stuff to dry plus limited assembly/working space in the workshop.

So decided to make up the two outer edge 'mouldings' (for want of a better word.....nosings ?). Decided not to cooper excessively since I had a reasonably wide piece of oak that I could use to make 60-75% of the nosing in one piece. Then it was just a case marking out the remaining pieces, cutting them on the mitresaw, finessing them with the disc sander, using a 4mm domino at each joint and glueing them all up. I use the template as my guide as I decided to glue them all together and router trim and mould them in one go.



 








 

I've also decided to domino/glue the veneered 'transition' marker to these mouldings first and then fix them to the subframe as a unit.

Today - Friday

Fixed the smaller nosing to its template, started running it over the bearing guided cutter and all was going very well until…..





It all happened bloody fast and I still don’t know quite what caused it to happen. Just means a bit more faffing about adding and glueing a new piece (if I have enough oak left). Fortunately I still have all my fingers but I’m going to have to think of a better way of holding this.


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## Doug71 (10 Jan 2020)

You have a lot of end grain on that nosing which will cause problems, I would have joined the oak so that the grain followed the step round if you know what I mean.


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## Jacob (10 Jan 2020)

RogerS":2alna0w3 said:


> Thanks Jacob. An interesting approach.
> 
> EDIT: How much material did you have left after cutting the kerfs ? Looks like only a few mm.


Can't remember. Probably 3 to 4mm. Trial and error - tried out a few scraps to see how they bent/broke. It'd be the same sort of thickness as the 'veneer' described in the books but kerfing has an advantage in that it bends naturally into a regular curve even without the block to bend it round, all being well.
PS your radius is shallower so you could get away with less kerf, which would be stronger. The limit is what you can bend without it splitting out.


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## RogerS (10 Jan 2020)

Doug71":3nknrrqy said:


> You have a lot of end grain on that nosing which will cause problems, I would have joined the oak so that the grain followed the step round if you know what I mean.



I know what you mean. I'd wanted to keep the visual impression of the grain being in the same orientation.


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## Doug71 (10 Jan 2020)

RogerS":1vs3hs6h said:


> Doug71":1vs3hs6h said:
> 
> 
> > You have a lot of end grain on that nosing which will cause problems, I would have joined the oak so that the grain followed the step round if you know what I mean.
> ...



With it joined as it is you have in effect created a 600mm wide board which I would expect to dry out and shrink across the width, I think there is a good chance of it cracking across the short grain depending on how it is fixed.


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## RogerS (10 Jan 2020)

Doug71":28iip9zz said:


> RogerS":28iip9zz said:
> 
> 
> > Doug71":28iip9zz said:
> ...



Lots of epoxy, I think !


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## RogerS (13 Jan 2020)

So here we have the larger nosing and transition piece (for the bottom step). After my little (ahem) mishap, managed to finesse routing the nosing back to the template plus rounding the corners over with a different cutter. The outside radii in the troublesome area were finished off on the linisher...a lot more gentle process than a whizzing router cutter.

I started to carry on sanding the nosing etc but felt I was playing with fire as I had been caught out with some hidden shakes in the oak and I didn't want to run the risk of it snapping. So bearing in mind my decision to pre-fit the nosing to the transition marker before fitting to the subframe now was a good time to do it.

Lots of 4mm domino's...too many in hindsight. Sealed the tops of the two pieces with Blanchon Original Wood Environment to avoid any glue filling pores etc.





and away we go. 



 
A girl can never have too many clamps...


 

And this turned out to be the hairiest glue-up I've ever attempted especially as there were some cockups along the way that I'm too embarrassed to admit to.  But the joint looks tight and tidy-ish ...


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## RogerS (15 Jan 2020)

If you recall, one issue bothering me was how to secure the riser to the subframe since it couldn't be fixed prior to veneering. Idea 1 was to glue blocks to the inside face and then screw them down to the bottom subframe panel....like so..




Still got the question of how to glue to the edge of the top subframe panel. And until a few days ago, the plan was to have lots of small blocks top and bottom to provide a glued fixing point between riser and panels. Then I bought that secondhand Startrite 301 and although it's scruffy and seen a lot of use, by Jove, it cuts well and for the first time, cuts don't wander, stay vertical and so problem solved.



 

Bottom panel in place



 

Add glue and retire.





Someone asked about heat from the CH pipes. I'm only too aware of what that can do as shown by oak floorboards at our old place and the maple floorboards here. Apart from lagging the pipes, I'm hoping that the subframe top panel will also let any heat be spread and dissipate across the whole top rather than localised. In any event the pipes aren't that close.


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## RogerS (16 Jan 2020)

The good news or the bad news ?

Trimmed the riser and offered up the nosing/transition strip combi. Looks good, eh ?



 

Um no. A very, bloody, Godawful, sit-in-a-corner hugging myself and sobbing quietly NO. I forgot to factor in the thickness of the riser. But even if I had, there is still something wrong. And I have absolutely no idea how to fix it. I can't face doing it all again. I don't have enough veneer. I don't have enough oak. To say I am totally gutted and devastated is an under-statement.


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## Jacob (16 Jan 2020)

RogerS":2xbh5hdh said:


> The good news or the bad news ?


Probably good news! It was doomed from the start. MDF, veneer, cross grain noseings, dominoes, etc all unsuitable - it would have started to come apart in no time, after a bit of traffic. Noseings break off or complete collapse under the weight of two blokes carrying a piano :shock: 
That built in "transition marker" would treble the likelihood of it all coming apart - as you walk down stairs your weight as you leave a step is likely to be on one foot concentrated on the very edge itself. A 17st bloke carrying something heavy could wreck it !


> ...... And I have absolutely no idea how to fix it. .......


Scrap it. Start again with plan B.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it we've all had things go wrong - if not one's whole life :roll: .


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## Steve Maskery (16 Jan 2020)

Jacob":1gyto72h said:


> ... we've all had things go wrong - if not one's whole life.



LOL! Where did that come from?
And I thought it was just me


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## Jacob (16 Jan 2020)

Steve Maskery":3d2loi32 said:


> Jacob":3d2loi32 said:
> 
> 
> > ... we've all had things go wrong - if not one's whole life.
> ...


Not me personally Steve! I had someone else in mind 8-[
You still alive and well I hope?


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## RogerS (16 Jan 2020)

Jacob":22eili56 said:


> RogerS":22eili56 said:
> 
> 
> > The good news or the bad news ?
> ...



We will have to differ on the design, Jacob, and I don't agree with you about your 'doom and gloom' statements re breakages etc


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## MikeG. (16 Jan 2020)

This one has confused me from the start, so I haven't said anything......expecting just to be educated. I'm afraid you are just going to have to bin this attempt. Maybe the next iteration will be a simpler affair, with kerfed risers and segmented long-grained nosings in the usual way .


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## RogerS (16 Jan 2020)

MikeG.":9ewmmsm0 said:


> This one has confused me from the start, so I haven't said anything......expecting just to be educated. I'm afraid you are just going to have to bin this attempt. Maybe the next iteration will be a simpler affair, with kerfed risers and segmented long-grained nosings in the usual way .



Nothing wrong with the riser, Mike


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## MikeG. (16 Jan 2020)

Oh OK. So it's just the geometry of your lip/ nosing. I'd make up a segmented arch, with the grain running along (around) it, sit it on top of the riser and mark it up, off-set the line by your overhang, then get to work with a bandsaw and spokeshave. Once the outside was right I'd mark a parallel line for the inside curve with a gauge and follow the same process. But I know that's not the aesthetic you're after....


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## NickM (16 Jan 2020)

I can only offer my sympathy - it's a real shame after all the effort you've put in.


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## RogerS (17 Jan 2020)

NickM":3q9sm5c7 said:


> I can only offer my sympathy - it's a real shame after all the effort you've put in.


Thanks Nick...much appreciated.


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## toolsntat (17 Jan 2020)

Why can you not make the riser match the nosing?
Cheers Andy


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## RogerS (17 Jan 2020)

toolsntat":2gj4cfch said:


> Why can you not make the riser match the nosing?
> Cheers Andy



Because it's all glued up solid.


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## toolsntat (17 Jan 2020)

Can you not lift it out and bandsaw off the riser, reshape the step to suit then reapply the riser?


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## RogerS (17 Jan 2020)

toolsntat":2rw1rk13 said:


> Can you not lift it out and bandsaw off the riser, reshape the step to suit then reapply the riser?




LOL ! No, when I make steps they are built to stay. The bottom panel is screwed into the floor !


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## Trainee neophyte (18 Jan 2020)

I've been keeping very quiet, for obvious reasons, but every time I see this step I think of it creaking. It just doesn't look very solid, and all those joints moving about to make a musical step. You can tell I grew up in an old, old house. In Japan they would do this on purpose to alert the household to an infiltration of ninjas, but I assume that isn't a problem in your case. Or is it?

Right from the beginning, I have wondered if wood was the right material for this step. I may get shot for that, but a nice lump of local stone could work, perhaps? We even know a man who could carve a rabbit into it for you. Well, I say rabbit...

(If this step is on the third floor, leading to the east tower, then I may be speaking out of turn, and wood will be the way to go, obviously).


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## ColeyS1 (18 Jan 2020)

Trainee neophyte":3cdrbiaw said:


> I've been keeping very quiet



Me to. If I were to have commented it would have been to agree with some of Jacob's thoughts. For it to stand half a chance the glue bond would have had to be very good. That would have meant nice tight joints but you're still left with short grain on the sides. I feel bad for Roger because alot of work has gone into it. It's the mk1 version though and the mk2 will be bang on fantastic ! 
Out of curiosity is the riser an absolute true radius? If so do you know what the radius is to the front edge ?


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

Trust me, TN...no movement whatsoever. I don't mind a nightingale floor. It's an old house, the old floors creak but my stuff doesn't. It's glued and screwed down too much. In any event, a creak on the floor late at night gives me chance to get the shotgun. :twisted: 

Coley...I understand your concern but not valid in this case. The nosing overhangs the rise by only a few mm or so and there are many, many more mm sitting snugly on the top panel of the subframe. The nosing is glued to the ply of the transition strip with lots and lots of dominos. That whole sub-assembly will be screwed and glued down onto the top panel. It will be solid as a rock. Just the wrong shape  But I have a plan.

Design is all. Not Jacob's clunky old-fashioned rustic style.


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## ColeyS1 (18 Jan 2020)

I'd be tempted to do something like this on the mk2 version.





Allow your nosing oversized and route a groove into the top then glue your contrasting strip in. Buy adding the piece to the groove, providing the strip is snug ,(even if it's not you could make that over sized aswell) should ensure a good bond. You could wedge the strip forward if needed. The only thing I would do before is route/round the finished front edge before doing anything else.

Edit- what I meant when the strip could be oversized






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## Jacob (18 Jan 2020)

RogerS":1tefxdwx said:


> .......
> 
> Design is all.


But not if the structure won't support it


> Not Jacob's clunky old-fashioned rustic style.


Nothing rustic about trad staircases, least of all Georgian. Here's one, albeit newly made. https://www.homify.co.uk/projects/45876 ... ase-surrey
The 2nd step is very much what I did in my example above, the first step will be exactly the same design in principle. Note the thick treads - probably about 32mm.
Best of luck!


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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

There won't be a Mk II ! That's for sure.


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## ColeyS1 (18 Jan 2020)

Would a groove not make your life alot easier in terms of gluing up and getting a nice tight joint? The nosing would be wider aswell.

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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

ColeyS1":1hxxgakf said:


> Would a groove not make your life alot easier in terms of gluing up and getting a nice tight joint? The nosing would be wider aswell.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



It might, Coley but I think a wide nosing would look ugly. But as I mentioned, I ain't got any more oak. And I ain't got any more veneer. So it is what it is.


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## ColeyS1 (18 Jan 2020)

The nosing would be the exact same size to look at,just have more support underneath. It' have no straight through joint like you've got at the moment so wouldn't be relying on sticking end grain to end grain . The dotted line is where it would be cut back.

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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

ColeyS1":q8hw2sv4 said:


> The nosing would be the exact same size to look at,just have more support underneath. .....
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



Your nosing extends about 10x what mine does ! I have all the support I need. Just the wrong shape


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## ColeyS1 (18 Jan 2020)

Something like this Roger










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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

I appreciate your help and suggestions, Coley. But there won't be a MkII for lots of reasons.


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## Trevanion (18 Jan 2020)

RogerS":37xxc2u6 said:


> Design is all. Not Jacob's clunky old-fashioned rustic style.



To be fair, Jacob's "clunky old-fashioned rustic style" has been how I've been doing bullnose/d-end risers for years. Before that, it was removing all the material instead of kerfs, cut a dovetail on each shoulder so it acted like a sliding dovetail, make a softwood block that had the correct radius and the dovetails at the ends of the radius so that they locked together, it's very sturdy but very time-consuming. The kerfing comparatively is lightning fast and very simple to do and grants excellent results every time. I did a full d-end staircase the other day which requires a little more working out than a straightforward bullnose (with one of those you just allow plenty in the lengths each side of the 90-degree bend and cut to fit.), I spent perhaps an hour drawing it and the front end of the stairs with the newels up in full size on a sheet of plywood, a couple of hours making up the softwood blocks and machining the oak to size, half an hour cutting the kerfs and then another half an hour gluing it up.

As I said in your original design thread, I would’ve personally made the front up from segmented blocks but I understand that’s not the look you were going for. But that amount of short grain is a recipe for splitting in the heat no matter how much glue you use unfortunately. There’s some really nice chair “designs” that look lovely but structurally they’re terrible with way too much short grain everywhere.


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## Jacob (18 Jan 2020)

Trevanion":284nelr1 said:


> RogerS":284nelr1 said:
> 
> 
> > Design is all. Not Jacob's clunky old-fashioned rustic style.
> ...


Not to mention the folding wedges to to pull it all tight!
The reason why 'traditional' is worth looking at is that it is the distilled and combined wisdom of how to do difficult things, from generations of people struggling and succeeding in doing the stuff. 
The word has at least two barely related meanings and can be nothing at all to do with Morris dancing, seasonal celebrations, folk singing with one finger in your ear, or "clunky old-fashioned rustic style".


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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

Jacob":7cw88dvt said:


> .....
> The reason why 'traditional' is worth looking at is that it is the distilled and combined wisdom of how to do difficult things, from generations of people struggling and succeeding in doing the stuff.
> ...



Yeah...right. Like people saying "Use Danish oil"

If you had your way, Jacob...we'd still be using logs to move stuff about and the wheel would never have been invented.


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## Jacob (18 Jan 2020)

RogerS":33a5rd1x said:


> Jacob":33a5rd1x said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...


"Reinventing the wheel" in the case of your progressive futuristic stair case. Good job it wasn't a whole flight!


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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

Jacob":3dsq0zpy said:


> RogerS":3dsq0zpy said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3dsq0zpy said:
> ...



You've got the right word...progress !!


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## Jacob (18 Jan 2020)

RogerS":1xgdnvjq said:


> Jacob":1xgdnvjq said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":1xgdnvjq said:
> ...


Oh is it finished? Well done.


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## ColeyS1 (18 Jan 2020)

Crikey

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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

Jacob":2jegff7r said:


> RogerS":2jegff7r said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":2jegff7r said:
> ...



Whatever, Jacob. Whatever.


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## RogerS (18 Jan 2020)

ColeyS1":2xg5xnvc said:


> Crikey
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



No, not yet....he's just doing his usual, Coley.


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## ColeyS1 (18 Jan 2020)

RogerS":gl9wyhsi said:


> ColeyS1":gl9wyhsi said:
> 
> 
> > Crikey
> ...


I kind of understand what you're saying but some of what he says rings true...to me anyway. If I were to have been given the job I would have most likely gone down the segmented route





Perhaps draw a full scale rod and bisect some six inch wide off cuts and domino them but squeeze the joints together by hammering in dogs from underneath. Then leave it to settle in the room for a week or so before beginning the routing. You know what you want which makes it a hellova lot easier. If it were a case of needing some extra oak I'm sure I could have found some suitable [WINKING FACE]


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## RogerS (30 Jan 2020)

Now where were we ? Ah yes ...



 
A suggestion by my wife prompted a bit of lateral thinking


 




Turn it into a 'feature'... 8) 



 

Don't look too closely at the duff join in the veneer. It's not really that noticeable in the flesh. Honest.



 

Well aware that the corner edge is vulnerable but can live with that.

Laid the floorboards for the bottom step in place, placed the nosing assembly on top and drew a pencil line between the two. Originally I'd planned to use the template I'd made/bodged ages ago...where we talked about bearings and offsets..but came to the conclusion that it would be better to go the pencil-round route.

The curves are cut close to the line on the bandsaw and then sanded on the linisher which makes short work provided you are careful not to go too gung-ho.



 

Then it's just a simple task of finely sanding to the required shape and offering each piece up to the nosing to check for a fit. Easy-peasy :eusa-whistle: ...not. Do I do it in the house with the nosing fixed (permanently or temporarily...both have their plus and minuses) - trekking back and forth between house and workshop? Or take the nosing out to the workbench, clamp it in place and finesse the curves on the floorboards there? The latter being very handy since the linisher is only feet away. I opted for the latter.

I used the central piece of floorboard as my reference


 

That piece went in very easily as did the next one a long but by the time I started on the third piece it all started getting very tricky as the individual pieces slipped and slid relative to each other. And relative to the nosing. But they all look OK-ish once in place. Eventually.

But now I’m in a quandary and a rod for my back of my own making. How the Hell do I fix them all down ?

I can glue and screw (using Tongue-Tite screws …ideal for this purpose) the nosing down first but how do I ensure that it’s in the right place relative to where the floorboards will be? 

And if I do that then how do I get the floorboards into place as they are T&G



 

I can’t glue them up as a unit and then drop them into place after fitting the nosing because (a) the CH pipe makes that difficult and more importantly (b) I’ve found that their position relative to the nosing is critical if gaps here and there are not to appear. They shouldn’t do because it’s a nice perfect curve…not ! Think I might have had some play in my trammel when I made the original templates.

I can’t fit the floorboards down first ahead of the nosing as then I can’t get any screws into the nosing and neither can I clamp it down while the glue sets.

Current thoughts are to remove the bottom tongue of the groove of each piece so that they can drop down onto the adjacent floorboards tongue but I do know that the floorboards are not 100% flat and so I’m going to have to glue them in place with a damn heavy weight on each to keep them flat until the glue sets ….but even then I’m concerned that the glue could fail and let them pop back up, as it were. I’m reluctant to screw them down using those plug and dowel sets as they’d be too visible.

Also I noted that the nosing moves slightly as the Tongue-Tite screws are inserted.

So the current plan is to get my mate, Richard, up. We place the floorboards in position unfixed. Apply glue where the nosing will go. Offer up the nosing to get the best tightest fit to the floorboards. Then while he holds the nosing rigidly in place, I remove the floorboards which then allows us to screw the nosing down. Then starting at one side, apply glue for the first floorboard, screw it down through its tongue using Tongue-Tite screws. Drop the next one in place and repeat the fixing…all the while making sure that they are as snug a fit as possible to the nosing.

And hopefully the last one will drop precisely into position with nary a gap. But I don’t think I have anything heavy enough to keep any bent ones down until the glues has gone off.

Straws…clutching.

Any ideas, chaps ?


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## RogerS (30 Jan 2020)

The answers to a couple of my concerns have been staring me in the face ! 

Keeping the nosing assembly in place for gluing and screwing ...sorted ! 



 



 

My concern about removing part of the T&G on the floorboards ? Only necessary on the last piece  All the rest can be 'finessed' into place without removing anything. So I can use the T&G to keep it all level and secure.


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## RogerS (2 Feb 2020)

While the nosing is being glued down (I used a version of No-Nails as it dries slightly flexible) attention turned to the top step.

Having learned a lot from making the bottom step and being a smaller step, it went together much quicker and slicker than the bottom step.

Create the subframe with suitable cutout for the CH pipes.

Bandsaw curved blocks to support the riser. 

Glue and screw all together then ..

Glue the riser in place - pre-curving it using the hot-air gun technique…brilliant tip.



 



 

Add lots of screws to hold it down tight against the curved support blocks



[ 

And when the glue went off, add the veneer, stick the whole lot in the vacuum press et voila


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## AndyT (2 Feb 2020)

Well that was quicker and easier!

I think this thread is a nice example of the pitfalls that await the ambitious amateur. You try to work out everything in advance, but nothing is as much use as real experience. And by the time you've got the experience, you've finished the project and will never need to build another. *

Far easier to be a professional and learn on other people's houses!  


* Or if you do, it's such a long time later that you've forgotten how you made the first one.


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## RogerS (2 Feb 2020)

AndyT":1oyqttn8 said:


> .... the ambitious amateur......



Cheeky pipper !


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## AndyT (2 Feb 2020)

RogerS":25rg8gmc said:


> AndyT":25rg8gmc said:
> 
> 
> > .... the ambitious amateur......
> ...



Sorry if that's not you Roger - but I'm sort of projecting your experience onto my own...


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## RogerS (10 Feb 2020)

Glueing the nosing assembly for the top step was even trickier due to the tighter radius. Dominos are NOT the right thing to use...DAMHIKT. Bit stupid of me TBH. I'd thought 'more is best' and daily cut domino slots all the way round. But they are cut along radial lines. So as you go round the curve, the axes of the dominos means that you're trying to fit the two pieces together in conflicting directions. Even with wide domino slots in one of the pieces. If my explanation isn't that good I can make a sketch. It all got a bit frantic towards the end with dominos being pulled out, cut off, shavings mixed with glue wiped off, sweat, cussing. Obvious really in hindsight.  

One of those few occasions when a biscuit is the best option. 

And so we're on the home straight and time for the floorboards to go on the top step. Originally I'd wanted them to follow on through in a seamless manner and segue into those that would be laid later in the hall. But then I realised that trying to manhandle and accurately sand the curves on the ends of 2.4m lengths of board just simply wasn't going to happen. So a traditional threshold strip was the way to go.

Not that many boards. I wanted to slot the two outer boards under the existing plasterboard to give me the option of not fitting any skirting board in the door opening if I or CD decided that that was the neater option. Enter the ever-brilliant Fein, slide along on top of the floorboard and trim away.

I'd thought that I'd taken a load of WIP photos but clearly didn't. My apologies. And so without further ado.

*Ta da !*

Finished ! (apart from making good)



 

Please ignore the colorimetry. It's my camera.


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## ColeyS1 (13 Feb 2020)

Had to view this on a browser because last picture wasn't showing on Tapatalk. The treads with the contrasting banding look nothing short of stunning and then some !!!!!! 




Whats the plan with the riser that's sticking out ?

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## RogerS (13 Feb 2020)

Thanks, Coley. That's a feature ! It looks much better in the flesh.


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## ColeyS1 (13 Feb 2020)

RogerS":17sxgqrq said:


> Thanks, Coley. That's a feature ! It looks much better in the flesh.


My bad for saying this but come on ! The top tread invites you down to the lovely riser, followed by the next lovely curved tread. The next riser sticks out ! My eye compares it to the top couple which is spot on on point ! 

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## RogerS (14 Feb 2020)

ColeyS1":2r738u7c said:


> RogerS":2r738u7c said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, Coley. That's a feature ! It looks much better in the flesh.
> ...



Fair point but I can live with it !


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