# Grinding plane irons square and straight?



## LuptonM (14 Sep 2010)

Can anyone advise me how I might grind plane irons on a dry bench grinder so the blade is straight and square ready for honing?


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":17b1m068 said:


> Can anyone advise me how I might grind plane irons on a dry bench grinder so the blade is straight and square ready for honing?


What is the problem exactly?
You check with a square to see where there is too much metal, and remove the excess. If the blade is not parallel sided you'd use an adjustable bevel instead.
I wouldn't necessarily do it in one, but instead just bias my honing pressure to remove more from one side than the other, until it comes out right after several sharpenings.
I don't do "square" for most plane irons, but the idea is the same for a camber.


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## studders (15 Sep 2010)

I tend to do it by eye and adjust the angle of presentation to the grinder accordingly.


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## OPJ (15 Sep 2010)

Do you have a table or tool rest with your grinder? Something like this. That's one of the easiest ways to get accurate and repeatable results.


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2010)

OPJ":m0u43wr3 said:


> Do you have a table or tool rest with your grinder? Something like this. That's one of the easiest ways to get accurate and repeatable results.


True no doubt, but for a practical working/sharpening regime, accuracy and repeatability are not priorities. 
Freehand can be somewhat variable, but is very effective nevertheless.


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## LuptonM (15 Sep 2010)

Well I have this grinder http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... rod781392/

Initially I thought as a beginner using a wetstone wheel with the jig would be a good idea to get good results. However I find it takes too long but the main problem is that it adds quite a large chamfer to the blade which isn't very good for chisels nor for smoothing planing irons (I am right that smoothing plane irons need to be pretty straight?)

So I wish to use the dry grinding wheel especially as it will save time restoring chisels and plane irons I find at carboots. However the tool rest on the dry grinding wheel is a little useless since plane irons are much wider that it, making free hand grinding hard to control.

So basically I want a reliable way of grinding chisels and plane irons straight and if I want to add chamfer to the blades I can choose to do that myself



OPJ":1zv6y0ml said:


> Do you have a table or tool rest with your grinder? Something like this. That's one of the easiest ways to get accurate and repeatable results.



Have u tried the veritas tool rest (and maybe the jig that goes with it)?


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":3ridm33l said:


> .....
> So basically I want a reliable way of grinding chisels and plane irons straight and if I want to add chamfer to the blades I can choose to do that myself....


Car boot stuff I usually start by honing at 30º (same as what crazy sharpeners might call "applying a 30º micro secondary bevel") just to see how it comes out. If the blade was already in good nick then that's it, all you need.
If not good then the position of the shiny new bevel shows what you need to do next e.g. if the new bevel has a lot of untouched steel between it and the edge then it has been dubbed over and might need grinding. I'd do it all by hand but if a lot of metal needs removing I'd do it on a belt sander 60 grit, freehand again.
Basically all hand and eye, and a lot quicker and easier than ferkin about with jigs, rests etc. Also removes least metal so your blades last a lot longer.

_Have u tried the veritas tool rest (and maybe the jig that goes with it)?_
Certainly not, wouldn't dream of it, why bother? :lol: :lol:


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## studders (15 Sep 2010)

I use this one.
Does the job OK though I binned the silly tool clamp thing and glued a bit of hardwood to the grinding platform to make it bigger and more stable.


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## Alf (15 Sep 2010)

I use the Veritas tool rest - works okay. Wouldn't bother with the jig; better to use your eyes to see where you need to grind than blindly follow the jig, in my experience. (Embarrassing and ancient YouTube vid here, if it helps. Pardon the parrot.) Also you need to keep a light touch on the wheel to avoid over-heating, and the jig in the track just stops one easily removing the steel from the wheel. Nice in theory, not so good in practice.


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## Paul Chapman (15 Sep 2010)

I'd persevere with the wet grinder if I were you - it's so easy to burn and ruin blades on high-speed grinders. Many people seem to complain that wet grinders are slow but I find mine (a Tormek) is fast. Are you pressing hard enough?

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (15 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":1o2qhh8b said:


> ..it adds quite a large chamfer to the blade



I think you've become confused. You're using "chamfer" to mean "camber".

They're not the same thing at all.

Moving on...

Grinding a straight and square edge is fairly easy. Just mark a line on the blade, and work to it. Since metal is removed slowly (even with a power grinder) it's easy to be accurate.

To mark the blade, either use a carbide scribe, and make a scratch, or coat the blade in engineer's layout blue (or marker pen...) and use "anything pointy"

BugBear


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2010)

bugbear":3fwpg0qe said:


> LuptonM":3fwpg0qe said:
> 
> 
> > ..it adds quite a large chamfer to the blade
> ...


Or just draw a line with a felt tip pen.


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## LuptonM (15 Sep 2010)

Paul Chapman":2cq7oqmo said:


> I'd persevere with the wet grinder if I were you - it's so easy to burn and ruin blades on high-speed grinders. Many people seem to complain that wet grinders are slow but I find mine (a Tormek) is fast. Are you pressing hard enough?
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



It really is slow- can take me more than half an hour even if the blades in good condition
I don't think its that easy to ruin blades if you dip the blade in the cup of water often. I've seen my dad overheat a blade but he's not careful- the metal is left with a blue (sort of oily) looking patch



Alf":2cq7oqmo said:


> I use the Veritas tool rest - works okay. Wouldn't bother with the jig; better to use your eyes to see where you need to grind than blindly follow the jig, in my experience. (Embarrassing and ancient YouTube vid here, if it helps. Pardon the parrot.) Also you need to keep a light touch on the wheel to avoid over-heating, and the jig in the track just stops one easily removing the steel from the wheel. Nice in theory, not so good in practice.


hand grinder is seriously cool but I bet its slow (though maybe not as slow as my wetstone grinder-it turns 90rpm)

A belt sander's a good idea jacob since its easy to get a blade straight but I've already bought a grinder. Carboot tools usually come pretty rough with blades ground incredibly badly

I'll think I'll save up for the veritas tool rest (without the jig) and grind freehand. 

I wonder if grinding it could be like using a turning chisel on a lathe. My dad's got a small lathe and you can use the groove (running your finger along it) in the toolrest as a guide to get the wood all the same thickness.


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## bugbear (15 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1i5akn51 said:


> Bugbear":1i5akn51 said:
> 
> 
> > To mark the blade, either use a carbide scribe, and make a scratch, or coat the blade in engineer's layout blue (or marker pen...) and use "anything pointy"
> ...



Accurate marking out is a good basis for subsequent work.

I suppose if you're in a real hurry, you could just freehand/eyeball squareness.

Not my style though.

BugBear


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## OPJ (15 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":2mxydoeu said:


> Have u tried the veritas tool rest (and maybe the jig that goes with it)?



Yes, I used to own both and they were a bit cheaper back when I bought mine... That was until I sold my grinder and bought one of these instead! :wink:

It does everything I need with ease and accuracy. My grinder setup, even with the Veritas accessories, was never this quick and easy. There's little mess, a minimal amount of sparking and a very low risk of over-heating the steel.


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## LuptonM (15 Sep 2010)

To save me buying something do u think I could use a hand held belt sander in some way (maybe mounted upside down) to grind tools?


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":2ru570j2 said:


> To save me buying something do u think I could use a hand held belt sander in some way (maybe mounted upside down) to grind tools?


Sure can, and much better than a grind-wheel; flat bevel, runs cooler, wider than any plane iron. I grind with 60 grit.
Also you can use it for sanding wood!
I've got a bench grinder and an angle grinder but they are for metal work, not for sharpening* - except spindle profiles.

*PS edit...metal work *other* than sharpening.. (for Alf see below)


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## Alf (15 Sep 2010)

Fascinating. What's sharpening if it's not metal work? :?


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## LuptonM (15 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":d5l687u7 said:


> LuptonM":d5l687u7 said:
> 
> 
> > To save me buying something do u think I could use a hand held belt sander in some way (maybe mounted upside down) to grind tools?
> ...



The belt sander is like this one http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CLARKE-BELT-SANDE ... 23ffe90036
accept its made by nutool.

The problem with my idea is how to hold it upside down and stop it moving 

I am really going have to think about it. I wish I had got my dad to get this (http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/produ ... -sanders-2) instead of a bench grinder. I may end up forking out for one of these in the future instead if I can't get my idea to work- 

For a noobie, when it comes to buying equipment its like a jungle out there. Companies are always making u want something u'll never need
At least I think I got my honing equipment right the first time


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":1wxd3opp said:


> ....
> The problem with my idea is how to hold it upside down and stop it moving


Some of them come with brackets so you can turn them upside down or hold them in a bench vice. If not then it's not difficult to make something up. I've got the posh Bosch which sits upside down quite easily, but has brackets too, for horizontal and vertical mounting. That Clarke looks a big bu***er maybe more than you need, but I don't know anything about it.


> ..
> For a noobie, when it comes to buying equipment its like a jungle out there. Companies are always making u want something u'll never need


Abso bloody lutely! Don't buy anything!


> At least I think I got my honing equipment right the first time


Er - except you don't need any equipment for honing (except an oil stone). We all get taken in at some point by the sales pitches!


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## LuptonM (15 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":3hy7dqyk said:


> LuptonM":3hy7dqyk said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



So how do u use your hand held belt sander to grind? Do u simply hold the plane iron free hand against the belt or did u make a toolrest to help u hold it against the force of the moving belt?

When I said honing stuff I was really refering to the float glass and sandpaper -i.e the scary sharp stuff. I thought I was going to regret it being a cheap skate and not getting waterstones but I think its probably worked out better since and I don't need/ to make a leather strop + compound as u can get the 0.3 micron paper.
However the axminster basic honing guide is pretty rubbish since the chisel holder part doesn't work and I've discovered that sometimes the guide will clamp one side of the plane iron higher that the other (which is really quite bad but I just check and correct before I hone/grind).


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":36lxjzor said:


> ...
> So how do u use your hand held belt sander to grind? Do u simply hold the plane iron free hand against the belt .....


Yes. 
A few minutes practice at holding it just under 30º and you are off. A visual aid is handy for eyeballing angles, such as a cheapo school 30/60 set square, or make your own. But you soon don't need it.

PS I keep meaning to say - sharpening (and a good many other woodwork processes) is a bit like riding a bike; however good the kit and the detailed instructions you won't be able to do it without getting on and having a few goes - and even with a rubbish bike and no instructions at all, you soon get the hang of it.


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## LuptonM (15 Sep 2010)

The added complication to holding it down is that the on buttom will need to be clamped or taped. I am not sure if this is just the belts my dad bought but the belts have a ridge where obviously two ends are joined together and this would play havoc when grinding. Infact the 'ridge' plays havoc when sanding and they just tear themselves apart. I think he just buys cheap belts of ebay so maybe thats just it- forever the false economist

I guess when these issues are sorted I should be sorted for any grinding eventuallity.

Anyway I should probably say thanks to you Jacob as you've proved a great help


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":qy06tl1b said:


> The added complication to holding it down is that the on buttom will need to be clamped or taped.


The Bosch (and others?) have a hold-on button as well as variable speeds. Thinking about it - the Bosch is worth the extra dosh for being able to sit upside down on a bench, without any brackets etc. - not to mention it's usability as a sander.


> I am not sure if this is just the belts my dad bought but the belts have a ridge where obviously two ends are joined together and this would play havoc when grinding.


Not a prob with reasonable belts.


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## Paul Chapman (16 Sep 2010)

You could, of course, do it all without any grinding machinery. I managed for years using just my diamond stones until I bought a Tormek.

Deneb Puchalski of Lie Nielsen gives a good demonstration of how to do it using just abrasive papers. All a lot quicker than you might think http://www.youtube.com/user/LieNielsen# ... PDxEb98ah8

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## LuptonM (16 Sep 2010)

Sandpaper is fine for restoring the primary bevel of a plane iron that is already ground straight and near the correct angle but it will take forever if the tool is improperly ground in the first place. I've tried it- not much fun.


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## eoinsgaff (16 Sep 2010)

I like to use a square to draw a line less than half a mm from the existing edge of a chisel or plane iron. It gives a good visual reference to ensure the edge is square to the tool when using a grinder. For me ,a tool rest is important to get a cosistant angle of edge.

Eoin


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## LuptonM (16 Sep 2010)

Another option to me is a bench disc sander like this one http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... rod780479/ as there's already on in the shed. The hand held belt sander will be tricky to use since the back is not flat (will rock if pressure applied to the belt and plus I'd have to buy proper belts) and really if used should be clamped in a bench vise that I do not have. 
The only problem with the disc sander is that it only tilts to 45 degrees but it should prove pretty useful for squaring blades

Anyone have any good ideas that would allow me to utilise the disc sander to grind at say 25 degrees? Just trying to find a method that will work without splashing out any extra cash if I help it as I figure once they are ground properly I shouldn't need to regrind unless I damage the blade (i.e chiping)

EDIT: I think I have a good idea in order to utilise the bench disk sander instead of the hassle of setting up the hand held belt sander. I simply set the disk sander table to 45 degrees and double sticky tape (carpet tape- pretty strong) a 20 degree wedge/tool rest on the table so I can easily grind to 25 degrees. What ya think?


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":3b0132ax said:


> ..... What ya think?


I think - switch the machine on, hold your blade against it at something less than 30º. Look at it; if it hasn't come out how you want it , do it again, possibly differently.
In other words just bl**dy do it and stop asking questions! This is not rocket science!

A lot of crazy sharpening discussion is like this. The hope is that once enough information and equipment is gathered you can just press the on button, get the right grit size to the nearest micron, etc. etc. and bobs yer uncle!
You even get discussions about the correct thickness, recommended brands, of ruler, for the so called ruler trick! Which, incidentally, is much easier without any ruler at all.


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## LuptonM (16 Sep 2010)

Sorry I made u angry but I think I've got it now. 

There's more than one way to skin a cat but someways are easier


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2010)

LuptonM":dtq616ud said:


> Sorry I made u angry but I think I've got it now.
> 
> There's more than one way to skin a cat but someways are easier


Not angry - just being emphatic! 
These things are all much easier than they let on, but you have to actually _*do*_ them to find this out - and keep re-doing them until you get it right


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## barkwindjammer (18 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":34w1m91s said:


> LuptonM":34w1m91s said:
> 
> 
> > ..... What ya think?
> ...



for emphasis


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## Dibs-h (18 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":1snfhoos said:


> Not angry - just being emphatic!
> These things are all much easier than they let on, but you have to actually _*do*_ them to find this out - and keep re-doing them until you get it right



Got to agree with Jacob - give it a go. If you aren't happy with it have another go. It's not like your sharpening your fingertips - i.e. don't get 1 go let alone 2! :wink:


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## studders (18 Sep 2010)

Dibs-h":3tnkxo1k said:


> It's not like your sharpening your fingertips...



I seem to manage that OK when honing freehand, esp on waterstones for some reason. :duno: 
I don't notice I'm doing it but it's blinkin painful an hour or so later.


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## PeterBassett (19 Sep 2010)

You're not the only one!


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2010)

Err how do you get your fingers in the way?


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## studders (19 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":3dxagcag said:


> Err how do you get your fingers in the way?



:duno:


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2010)

studders":4gbq0h3s said:


> Mr G Rimsdale":4gbq0h3s said:
> 
> 
> > Err how do you get your fingers in the way?
> ...


OK well I suggest doing it differently and keeping your fingers out of the way :roll:


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## studders (19 Sep 2010)

Mr G Rimsdale":265w2wsw said:


> OK well I suggest doing it differently and keeping your fingers out of the way :roll:



But if _knew_ that they _were_ in the way then they then wouldn't be in the way would they as I'd move 'em but I don't so I don't.
With me now?


Or..



Did you mean use a Jig?






:lol:


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