# How to use push sticks to cut wood safely on a table saw.



## Cabinetman (17 Apr 2021)

This is after somebody asked on another thread how to use push sticks and so I looked online to see what there was and was a bit horrified at some of the contraptions that are being promoted.
First off, this might not be 100% to the letter of the rules and I’m sure it will be pointed out to me! But it is a million miles better than the dangerous things you see on YouTube.






if your push sticks don’t look like this – ( can be wood or plastic or ply) they are probably dangerous, particularly if they have a handle on them and your hand passes over the top or to the side of the blade or you have to remove the crown guard to be able to use them, throw them in the bin. Push blocks American style are in my opinion inherently dangerous and there are 10 amputations on average every day in America using table saws – the Americans don’t tend to use wooden push sticks as in this demonstration.
I hope the following pictures demonstrate how to use them, it doesn’t matter if the wood is thick or thin, long or short, notice when I’m cutting a long bit I only use one push stick to start with and then when the back end of the wood approaches the saw I pick up the other stick and keep pushing with that.
When I am using the cross cut on the saw I only use one to clear the pieces away from the blade. Ian


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## Ozi (17 Apr 2021)

Thank you Ian I appreciate that, didn't think about pinching the other thread either. 

I must admit to a serious case of workshop envy


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## Webbo (17 Apr 2021)

Thanks for this, as a newb considering a table saw for the first time I've found Youtube to be a massively confusing and occasionally terrifying source!

As you're doing some crosscuts there, do you have any thoughts on the ubiquitous crosscut sleds that everyone tells you to make?


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## Cabinetman (17 Apr 2021)

Thanks Webbo, hopefully I have demystified what is really a simple thing.
I’m afraid I have no thoughts on the them as I’ve never used one, but I suppose it’s pretty much the same as with this thread if your fingers are nowhere near the sawblade probably good to go. I was always taught that within reason your hands should never go past the front edge of the saw table. Ian


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## LJM (17 Apr 2021)

“I was always taught that within reason your hands should never go past the front edge of the saw table”

+1


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## Jacob (17 Apr 2021)

Crosscut sled comments here Cross cut sled plus crown guard
The bloke in the vid uses one of those pistol shaped push sticks which think is another thing to avoid. His hand is inches away from the blade and he has to over reach to hold the workpiece


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## Ttrees (17 Apr 2021)

Never used a sled either, and glad I haven't made one yet for a few reasons.
I don't have much ply to be making version 2 of, nor the space if I did have a sheet to use.
It took some time to get the shed/saw sorted and honestly always have a safe space for working with it, regardless of the procedure.
Even with that sorted I'd still be undecided on the design.

Starting the blade will cause wear so that might be taken to account.
I don't like the fact that the blade is exposed, and the solutions on most look a bit 
dangerous.
Will get ahold of some lexan someday and make a load of TS jigs at the one time, and have a bash at making something better if I don't see something more sensible before then, which is likely to happen.


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## DBT85 (17 Apr 2021)

Webbo said:


> As you're doing some crosscuts there, do you have any thoughts on the ubiquitous crosscut sleds that everyone tells you to make?



Have a look at Badger workshop, he showed how to build a crosscut sled and still keep the guard on. Not at all complicated.


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## Inspector (17 Apr 2021)

If you search for "table saw crosscut sled with guard" and click on the images option you will find a number with various guards on the sled that cover the blade. Below is one image that I hope copied.

Pete

602 × 403


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## Jacob (17 Apr 2021)

Can't see why sleds are doubled up and don't just finish at the saw blade. They would work just as well if you just raised the blade and sliced off the right hand half. Then cut out a bit of the fence to allow the crown guard to pass over.


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## JohnPW (17 Apr 2021)

Isn't the guard too high in the photos except the last one?


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## Spectric (17 Apr 2021)

The only thing you need to know about using pushsticks is that they should be fit for purpose, ie made for the job and then never take your eyes off your hands because that way you will retain your digits and the wood should move easily, NEVER start puting a lot of force into the push stick because if it suddenly slips or the wood suddenly moves forward you hand will travel into the blade, if anything goes wrong just step back and hit the stop, do not do anything else until the blade stops.


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## powertools (17 Apr 2021)

I'm sorry but I don't agree that 2 push sticks of that style is the way to go. I'm also surprised that in a thread you have started about safety issues that you have shown a bloke using a saw with the blade set too high up for the cut he is making as an example of safe practice.


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## Spectric (17 Apr 2021)

Never noticed that, well spoted but perhaps he just leaves it at maximum height without knowing any better! That blade also looks like it has a fair number of teeth for rip cutting so again perhaps he is one blade for all. You could also argue that that sliding table hanging next to him could also be a hazzard in it's own right, you dont want any obstructions so that should have been put out the way so he could stand more to the side.


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## Inspector (17 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Can't see why sleds are doubled up and don't just finish at the saw blade. They would work just as well if you just raised the blade and sliced off the right hand half. Then cut out a bit of the fence to allow the crown guard to pass over.



At the risk of setting you off on an argumentative tangent I'll answer.

Sometimes you need support on both sides of the blade for the project at hand especially when it isn't a through cut. I don't care to have the piece hanging out in space unsupported. Being able to fit stops, position blocks or other fixturing and clamping on either side can be useful when cutting multiples. If you only want to cut on one side of the blade just use a mitre gauge, either the original or an aftermarket. If you want a guard over the blade you can add the Lexan cover I linked to in post #9 that is fitted to the sled or have an overarm type that allows the sled to pass under. The hump in the middle keeps me from placing my hands close to the blade and I don't hold on top of it, usually further away. You can also place the hump further away if it suits you. 

Pete


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## Cabinetman (17 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I'm sorry but I don't agree that 2 push sticks of that style is the way to go. I'm also surprised that in a thread you have started about safety issues that you have shown a bloke using a saw with the blade set too high up for the cut he is making as an example of safe practice.


 Well for when I was crosscutting I will agree with you the blade was too high but in all the rest of the shots there is a half inch clearance between the back of the crown guard and the wood, which is how I to be how I like it. I did start the discussion right at the very start by saying that it probably isn’t 100% as it should be but ..........
And as to your comment about two push sticks, What do you use?


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## Cabinetman (17 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Never noticed that, well spoted but perhaps he just leaves it at maximum height without knowing any better! That blade also looks like it has a fair number of teeth for rip cutting so again perhaps he is one blade for all. You could also argue that that sliding table hanging next to him could also be a hazzard in it's own right, you dont want any obstructions so that should have been put out the way so he could stand more to the side.


 The sliding table is not in the way at all it’s probably just the way it looks on the photo, and it’s designed to be like that, there is plenty of room to stand to avoid kickback. which I’ve never experienced in 40 years. 
So here’s a question, anybody ever experienced kickback when they have been using two push sticks?


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## Doug71 (17 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I'm also surprised that in a thread you have started about safety issues that you have shown a bloke using a saw with the blade set too high up for the cut he is making as an example of safe practice.



This is an interesting point and I think there is more to it than people realise, I think it also swings the guard on/off decision for some people.

My saw stays set at full height 99% of the time and the blade guard stays on. The reason it stays at full height is not just laziness, although it does save me winding it up and down all the time. When the blade is higher there are less teeth in the timber which means less friction, less heat, less burning and the blades last longer. Also the front teeth are pushing the timber down in to the table so less chance of kick back, I know in theory the back teeth can lift the timber but the blade guard stops this. Because there can be say 75mm of blade showing the guard is left on. This is how you will see it in a lot of professional shops.

If the blade is dropped so it just peeks through the wood the blade guard often comes off because it doesn't look so scary. Because the blade is lower the direction of the teeth is more towards the operator rather than downwards to the table so more chance of kickback. More teeth in the cut means more friction, heat, burning and shorter blade life.


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## Cabinetman (17 Apr 2021)

You make some very good points there Doug, makes me wonder if that’s why I have never had a kickback. 
Have you ever suffered one Doug?


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## Doug71 (17 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> You make some very good points there Doug, makes me wonder if that’s why I have never had a kickback.
> Have you ever suffered one Doug?



No


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## Jacob (17 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I'm sorry but I don't agree that 2 push sticks of that style is the way to go. I'm also surprised that in a thread you have started about safety issues that you have shown a bloke using a saw with the blade set too high up for the cut he is making as an example of safe practice.


The point is - even if the blade is set too high and you are doing other things wrong, with two push sticks your hands are out if the way and they unlikely to come to harm.


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## Jacob (17 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> You make some very good points there Doug, makes me wonder if that’s why I have never had a kickback.
> Have you ever suffered one Doug?


I've had kick back at the beginning with a new TS. Cutting a bevel and the offcut got flung out like a crossbow bolt with enough force to stick it firmly into the plaster board about 4ft away. 
Not had one since.


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## Spectric (17 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> So here’s a question, anybody ever experienced kickback when they have been using two push sticks?


Yes, just once when ripping some Sapelle. It shot out and took the push stick out of my hand at the same time, it was a really good lesson in understanding the forces involved and why they say stand to the side.

I find Dougs reasoning about the blade height very interesting, and makes sense. Why do so many advocate keeping the blade so it just comes through the wood? I actually had to sketch this to get whats happening but as you say with the blade set low there are a lot of teeth in the cut, but with it set high it only cuts initially at the front until it passes the blade width and then cuts at rear as well but with far fewer teeth than with the blade set low. So would this mean with a higher tooth blade you can set high for ripping but then set low for say sheet material and therefore not have to change the blade?


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## Starjump (17 Apr 2021)

It is really good to be having this discussion.

Thank you to Cabinetman for starting this discussion on push sticks and on tablesaw safety in general in this thread and others.

We all have to make our own decisions. Having these discussions helps us to look for the 'why' rather than blindly following what is shown on YouTube.


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## powertools (17 Apr 2021)

There are so many variables when using a table saw safely I just think that it is plain wrong to give out the impression that using 2 push sticks of not the best design will enable you to use the saw in complete safety.


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## Jacob (17 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> There are so many variables when using a table saw safely I just think that it is plain wrong to give out the impression that using 2 push sticks of not the best design will enable you to use the saw in complete safety.


"Complete" safety maybe not, but with two push-sticks any shape or size is going to be safer than without them.
I favour the very common basic design, which is cleverer than it looks. Make copies from mdf or cheap 12mm ply:


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## powertools (17 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> "Complete" safety maybe not, but with two push-sticks any shape or size is going to be safer than without them.
> I favour the very common basic design, which is cleverer than it looks. Make copies from mdf or cheap 12mm ply:
> 
> View attachment 108528




I'm sorry but I am going to dispute that. If anybody tries to cut lets say a 600x600 sheet of ply in half using those push sticks they may end up having to put their underwear in the wash before the end of the day.
The first priority in table safety is to make certain that the saw is set up as it should be followed by using the correct blade for the job in hand and using a sharp blade and setting it at the correct height for the job in hand and maybe then we could start talking push sticks.
It is wrong to suggest that regardless of anything else as long as you are using 2 sticks you are good to go.


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## Jacob (17 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> ...
> It is wrong to suggest that regardless of anything else as long as you are using 2 sticks you are good to go.


Nobody said that.
Safer yes, but not necessarily a better outcome in other respects!
Are you suggesting that people shouldn't use two push sticks?
PS can't see a prob with halving 600mm square ply particularly? Yes someone could get it wrong, but it'd be the ply getting a gash rather than the fingers.


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## Cabinetman (17 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> There are so many variables when using a table saw safely I just think that it is plain wrong to give out the impression that using 2 push sticks of not the best design will enable you to use the saw in complete safety.


 So, as I asked you last time when you criticised my post, what do you use if you don’t use two push sticks ?
You are right of course that the saw needs to be set up correctly and all the other things but at least with two push sticks you are so far away from the blade as not to be needing to go to hospital.


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## AJB Temple (17 Apr 2021)

From my experience I would add:

I have experienced kick back a few times. Each time it has been something like you might find in knotty oak where the saw suddenly goes from a soft part to a hard part and it has happened and is all over before you can react. For this reason I never allow anyone, including myself, to stand directly in the cut line. 

When cutting long pieces - for example ripping a 3 or 4 metre board down, I will either get help or fix up infeed and outfeed rollers. I think a lot of table saw issues arise from people trying to steer and support wood that gets unbalanced on the saw. 

The biggest safety tool by far is patience. Taking care to check that the wood is properly positioned, and all body parts are in safe places, before turning the saw on. I complete the cut and wait for the saw to come to a full stop before I do anything else. This takes a few seconds extra but stops inattention around a slowing but still potentially dangerous blade. 

I use the plastic push sticks pictured by Jacob. They are cheap, large enough to keep hands well away, and effective tools. The cranked handle makes life more comfortable.


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## doctor Bob (17 Apr 2021)

I have a sliding panel saw, I prefer to have the fence at the begining of the table and push work into it.
It comes from cutting large panels and having the ability to support all four corners. Most big sliding saws are set up this way.




For cross cuts I back up with a sacrifical stick, (order past blade:- fence, work, sacrifical stick) which gives a cleaner cut.
We use hundreds of meters of framework, cutting out knots and splits so always plenty of waste sticks. Each stick can be reused many many times, as you just knick into them.
Nothing wrong with 2 push sticks (personally I'm not a fan) but as a commercial workshop, I'd rather my chaps used alternative methods to get the same results.

Well done for posting it up Cabinetman, very brave, as you can see it's like feeding yourself to the wolves


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## Spectric (17 Apr 2021)

Safest approach is to just accept that no machinery is really safe because they have the ability to injure as soon as you stop paying attention and concentrating, think of the sticks as long extensions to your hands and as long as the sticks are in use your hands must be away from the blade. I have used a similar approach in machine safety, where an operator has to use two buttons, a left and a right to start a machine operation so you know where their hands are, or more importantly where they are not.


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## Spectric (17 Apr 2021)

Thats the beauty of a professional table saw with a sliding table, the right machine for the job wheras us mere mortals have to make do with more basic saws.


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## Cabinetman (17 Apr 2021)

Wolves, I know what you mean haha. But if it saves one finger it’s well worth it. Ian


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## skeetstar (18 Apr 2021)

Table saws frighten me, so I am very careful with mine.
I use the plastic push stick that it came, but my usual practice is push stick and feather board. I see the OP doesn't have a groove that would suit a feather board.
Is a feather board a good alternative to the second stick?
(That said, I have been known to use to push sticks as well as tge f board).


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## Jacob (18 Apr 2021)

skeetstar said:


> Table saws frighten me, so I am very careful with mine.
> I use the plastic push stick that it came, but my usual practice is push stick and feather board. I see the OP doesn't have a groove that would suit a feather board.
> Is a feather board a good alternative to the second stick?
> (That said, I have been known to use to push sticks as well as tge f board).


Not 'alternative to' but good in _addition_ to using two sticks - unless you are trying to use your saw with one hand behind your back!


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## LJM (18 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I'm sorry but I don't agree that 2 push sticks of that style is the way to go. I'm also surprised that in a thread you have started about safety issues that you have shown a bloke using a saw with the blade set too high up for the cut he is making as an example of safe practice.



Well what is the way to go? You still have not said


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## Cabinetman (18 Apr 2021)

skeetstar said:


> Table saws frighten me, so I am very careful with mine.
> I use the plastic push stick that it came, but my usual practice is push stick and feather board. I see the OP doesn't have a groove that would suit a feather board.
> Is a feather board a good alternative to the second stick?
> (That said, I have been known to use to push sticks as well as tge f board).


 I’ve never tried one but I suppose it just has the same effect as the push stick in my left hand, just not quite so controllable? I suppose you have to set it up for the thickness of the piece of wood each time.
It’s good that you’re careful and I suppose confidence builds over time as long as it doesn’t lead to complacency. Ian


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## Daniel2 (18 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I’ve never tried one but I suppose it just has the same effect as the push stick in my left hand, just not quite so controllable? I suppose you have to set it up for the thickness of the piece of wood each time.
> It’s good that you’re careful and I suppose confidence builds over time as long as it doesn’t lead to complacency. Ian



A couple of good keywords there.
*Confidence* is requisite, as a lack of can increase some dangers (i.e: not holding a workpiece firmly enough).
*Complacency*; to never become whilst maintaining confidence. As a safety net, I always ask myself the question
* 
"am I being complacent ?"*


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## RobinBHM (18 Apr 2021)

There is no one safe solution, I use 2 push sticks, 1 push stick, no push stick; each dependent on workpiece and type of cut.


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## Daniel2 (18 Apr 2021)

Yes, I agree.
It depends completely on the job at hand.


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## RobinBHM (18 Apr 2021)

A key point hasn't been discussed yet: rip fence position.

I sometimes work in a pro shop and people do it wrong all the time.


If you are ripping solid timber, the rip fence should be set to finish just beyond the point where the blade completes its cut: usually it's about the back of the gullet.


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## LJM (18 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> A key point hasn't been discussed yet: rip fence position.
> 
> I sometimes work in a pro shop and people do it wrong all the time.
> 
> ...




Others sight the centre of the blade as the limit of the fence ie the point at which the rotation of the blade is changing from downward to upwards; between the gullet and the blade centre is ok.


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## Sgian Dubh (18 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> First off, this might not be 100% to the letter of the rules and I’m sure it will be pointed out to me! But it is a million miles better than the dangerous things you see on YouTube. Ian


You're a brave man, Ian. Putting something like that up was sure to elicit either some nit-picking responses, or downright critical ones. You seem to have escaped without being too badly scathed so far, ha, ha.

Here's a *link to a table (cabinet) saw article* from about twenty plus years ago to which I was asked to make a contribution. It's a shame I don't have bigger and better quality digital images that could be attached to that article, or be a supplement to it. I do recall that when the article came out it got quite a bit of negative commentary about the ridiculous(sic) 'short' fence advocated for ripping operations from a primarily North American user base of that woodworking forum - actually, the forum is still, unsurprisingly, almost entirely populated by North Americans, but some foreigners, such as myself, a well known Ocker, and a few other non-Americans chip in from time to time, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## RobinBHM (18 Apr 2021)

LJM said:


> Others sight the centre of the blade as the limit of the fence ie the point at which the rotation of the blade is changing from downward to upwards; between the gullet and the blade centre is ok.


Yes indeed, good point.

Although I would suggest there is an "it depends"

Ripping small sections usually means tension is being released. When that happens, if the fence position is near the front of the sawblade, the wood is free to bend and bow as it pleases. The further on the fence is, the more chance there is of the timber pushing away from the fence.

I rip down timber glazing bead, 39mm x 18mm in half quite often - sometimes a hundred metres a time and I've found the best fence position is at the gullet. I can get pretty good consistency, within 0.3mm doing it that way. 

But on bigger timbers, I agree, the fence can be set closer to the middle. I have to say though, I don't find the fence offers any beneficial support after the cut. However I'm using a 3.2m panel saw with a very big fence and loads of table in front of the blade.


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## Jacob (18 Apr 2021)

Inspector said:


> At the risk of setting you off on an argumentative tangent I'll answer.
> 
> Sometimes you need support on both sides of the blade for the project at hand especially when it isn't a through cut. I don't care to have the piece hanging out in space unsupported. Being able to fit stops, position blocks or other fixturing and clamping on either side can be useful when cutting multiples. If you only want to cut on one side of the blade just use a mitre gauge, either the original or an aftermarket. If you want a guard over the blade you can add the Lexan cover I linked to in post #9 that is fitted to the sled or have an overarm type that allows the sled to pass under. The hump in the middle keeps me from placing my hands close to the blade and I don't hold on top of it, usually further away. You can also place the hump further away if it suits you.
> 
> ...


All those cuts cut be made with just the left hand end of the board, in place of a sliding table, but a lot easier with a band saw!


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## LJM (18 Apr 2021)

Exactly; it depends!

A big part of good practice is understanding the variables and the rationale behind “rule” or guidelines, so that we know when they could or should be safely deviated from


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## Jacob (18 Apr 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> ......It's a shame I don't have bigger and better quality digital images that could be attached to that article, .....


It's OK I spotted the two push sticks!
I was prompted in the 2 sticks direction by a comment from someone on this forum many years ago - he said his tutor told him it was necessary. Maybe one of your own alumni spreading the good word?
Think of all those saved fingers! Well done!


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## Cabinetman (18 Apr 2021)

Sgian Dubh said:


> You're a brave man, Ian. Putting something like that up was sure to elicit either some nit-picking responses, or downright critical ones. You seem to have escaped without being too badly scathed so far, ha, ha.
> 
> Here's a *link to a table (cabinet) saw article* from about twenty plus years ago to which I was asked to make a contribution. It's a shame I don't have bigger and better quality digital images that could be attached to that article, or be a supplement to it. I do recall that when the article came out it got quite a bit of negative commentary about the ridiculous(sic) 'short' fence advocated for ripping operations from a primarily North American user base of that woodworking forum - actually, the forum is still, unsurprisingly, almost entirely populated by North Americans, but some foreigners, such as myself, a well known Ocker, and a few other non-Americans chip in from time to time, ha, ha. Slainte.


 As you say Richard, Not too badly scathed "so far" ha ha. I read that article of yours and I thought it was very well written and particularly so as you had to keep your American audience on board – quite a tightrope to tread.


Jacob said:


> It's OK I spotted the two push sticks!
> I was prompted in the 2 sticks direction by a comment from someone on this forum many years ago - he said his tutor told him it was necessary. Maybe one of your own alumni spreading the good word?
> Think of all those saved fingers! Well done!


 I was taught to use two sticks at the age of 19 when I arrived at teacher training college (city of Leeds and Carnegy) and I’ve always done it that way, it seems so natural that I can’t imagine why all these other methods have come to the fore. 
Putting your hands anywhere near that spinning blade with (or without) other things between you and the blade is just asking for an accident, at least with two long sticks if something occurs your hands are nowhere near.
it’s as simple as that. Ian


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## Nelly111s (18 Apr 2021)

There's some good information in here, too

Circular saw benches – Safe working practices


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## Nelly111s (18 Apr 2021)

Also, here's an interesting video on kickback and blade height

Kickback


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## Cabinetman (18 Apr 2021)

Nelly111s said:


> There's some good information in here, too
> 
> Circular saw benches – Safe working practices


Thanks yes I read this this morning, the bit I found disconcerting is that to remove offcuts from between the blade and the fence use the push stick if it’s less than 150 mm. And that’s the HSE! No way would I put my hand there at all.
And then on that first video, I suspect if you had your left hand push stick pushing the offcuts through I don’t think he would’ve had that problem. I’m not going to start on how close his fingers were to the blade, or the lethal contraption he was using.


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## Sgian Dubh (18 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's OK I spotted the two push sticks!
> I was prompted in the 2 sticks direction by a comment from someone on this forum many years ago - he said his tutor told him it was necessary. Maybe one of your own alumni spreading the good word?


Not sure if it was one of my graduates, Jacob; I've not seen more than one or two of them post here. It's possible though, I suppose. I do wonder if it might even have been me, but I think it's unlikely, and I can't recall ever really getting into any table saw usage discussions on this board, although maybe I have done so at some point.

There are certain subjects I tend to avoid pretty scrupulously in forums, although I do sometimes monitor some of the more interesting and contentious ones for their entertainment value, such as:

requests to identify both well and poorly photographed wood - usually a rather unsatisfactory guessing game.
sharpening threads, and related topics, a favourite of yours I've noticed, but generally far too contentious and ultimately boring for me. I'm a simple sharp'no'go type - it works, and that's all that matters to me.
table saw usage - too many people vehemently opposed to whatever someone else has suggested, even if that suggestion was excellent
off-topic threads, especially ones involving politics, religion, race, Brexit, and any other topic likely to become point scoringly and pointlessly over-heated, i.e., another area you seem fond of participating in, ha, ha.
Both references to yourself above meant humorously and with tongue-in-cheek. Slainte.


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## powertools (18 Apr 2021)

I am not trying to be a smart buttocks here I am just trying to suggest that in my opinion there is no 1 solution to all situations on all table saws.
For those who have asked I have included a photo some of the solutions for most of the cuts I am likely to make on my small Kity table saw I think that it is fair to say that the likes of DrBob will have different solutions for their saws at the other end of the scale.


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## TRITON (18 Apr 2021)

From some of these threads it appears many here should go employ a joiner to do the work for them.


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## Cabinetman (18 Apr 2021)

We shall never agree that much is obvious. I have used all sorts of different tablesaws and have only ever used two push sticks in my 45 years of making furniture. I have never felt the need for any additional bits.
Could I just say that to use that one with the green base the underside of your wrist passes within 2 inches of the top of the blade.


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## LJM (18 Apr 2021)

Whilst I don’t have 45 years of experience (at anything; I’m not even that old), my father does. He was taught by an esteemed furniture maker, and taught many people including “delinquent” boys and adult prisoners. My father has never had an accident using two push sticks (same pattern as cabinetman) and the no hands within the bounds of the table rule. Nor did any of his students have an accident, and nor have I. Nor have I ever had reason to deviate from these simple methods.


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## Inspector (18 Apr 2021)

These are the kind I use. Taught to me by my Danish trained father. 






Pete


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## danst96 (19 Apr 2021)

Thanks for the thread @Cabinetman this is all really useful information. Im currently using some plastic push sticks but was thinking of making some pistol handle style ones they use in the US without really thinking about how close this would bring my hand to the blade or pushing past the blade, I will not bother with this! 

I think with the table saw, they are risky and there are many things, large and small that can reduce the risk. For example I experienced kickback (of kinds) on Saturday when I was cutting a piece of ply. My shop is pretty small and I dont have space for an outfeed table so as the blade passed through the last piece of the wood it tipped up as it went over the back of the saw and the blade caught the underneath shooting it back. The saw being a 3.7hp Scheppach didnt really blink at this at all and just shot it straight back at me. Fortunately my hand was well out of the way and i was already stepping back and pressing the off switch as it happened so it just left a big gash on the board but yes quite scary. I could have mitigated this risk by having a roller behind to catch the board. Or hopefully in the near future, a shop i can fit an outfeed table in for my saw.

As for the earlier question about a crosscut sled, In my opinion i think they enhance safety when cross cutting in particular smaller work pieces and or long work pieces especially if you do not have a mitre saw. They offer greater stability than a mitre guage on the table saw as they support the work piece both sides of the blade and while it is sometimes difficult to run a crown guard with a sled, this is mitigated by your hands being far from the blade and in the case where its a very small workpiece, you can use a clamp to hold it in place and still keep your hands a good distance away from the blade.


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## Jacob (19 Apr 2021)

danst96 said:


> ...... as the blade passed through the last piece of the wood it tipped up as it went over the back of the saw and the blade caught the underneath shooting it back.


Proper crown guard on the riving knife would stop that happening. 
It's the default safety device which should be used all the time, except for those less common processes where they get in the way - but then you have to be extra careful


> ...... Or hopefully in the near future, a shop i can fit an outfeed table in for my saw.


Rollers are good.


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## Jacob (19 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I am not trying to be a smart buttocks here I am just trying to suggest that in my opinion there is no 1 solution to all situations on all table saws.
> For those who have asked I have included a photo some of the solutions for most of the cuts I am likely to make on my small Kity table saw I think that it is fair to say that the likes of DrBob will have different solutions for their saws at the other end of the scale.
> 
> View attachment 108610


Interesting collection and a lot of thought gone into it obviously.
Have to say though - I can't see anything you could do with these which you could not do with a standard pair of push sticks, and more safely than those "shoe" style designs which take your hand close to, or past, the blade


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## danst96 (19 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Proper crown guard on the riving knife would stop that happening.
> It's the default safety device which should be used all the time, except for those less common processes where they get in the way - but then you have to be extra careful Rollers are good.


Yes 100% agree RE the crown guard, unfortunately when i got my saw it didnt have one. I have one on order with NMA which i ordered several weeks ago but apparently Scheppach are yet to send any of the back orders yet so i am still waiting.


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## Cabinetman (19 Apr 2021)

Hi Dan, thanks for your comments, unless it was a very long piece of ply the push sticks hold it down onto the table as well, sorry to hear you had kickback but you were lucky and as there was no damage to you it was a good lesson learned. Ian


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## JobandKnock (20 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> So here’s a question, anybody ever experienced kickback when they have been using two push sticks?


No, but then I don't use one of those stupid American style through rip fences (like the Biesmeyer), either. Rip fences shouldn't extend much past the first teeth of the blade

And whilst I am on it, what is it with crosscut sleds on table saws? For most joinery sections a mitre saw makes more sense to me because the work is static (a big plus when trying to cut a 10ft long door casing leg), the saw is always fitted with the right blade for the job (crosscut - my portable table saw generally has a rip blade more or less permanently installed) and in a small shop it takes a lot less space. This obsession with crosscut sleds seems to be driven by what American weekend warriors do. Why?

Sheet materials? Surely best broken down with a track saw, or even a portable saw with a home made track, in a small shop environment


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## doctor Bob (20 Apr 2021)

Sorry facebook.
Classic example of what no riving knife and a long fence can achieve

Facebook Groups

TV is a bit of a distraction.


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## Cabinetman (20 Apr 2021)

Thanks doctor Bob, he had his hands either side of that bit of wood pushing it through, what a total numpty! And how on earth anybody can have the television on in a workshop, never get anything done at all, 3/4 of the time I have the radio turned off as it’s too distracting. Hell he was lucky.


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## Inspector (20 Apr 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> No, but then I don't use one of those stupid American style through rip fences (like the Biesmeyer), either. Rip fences shouldn't extend much past the first teeth of the blade
> 
> And whilst I am on it, what is it with crosscut sleds on table saws? For most joinery sections a mitre saw makes more sense to me because the work is static (a big plus when trying to cut a 10ft long door casing leg), the saw is always fitted with the right blade for the job (crosscut - my portable table saw generally has a rip blade more or less permanently installed) and in a small shop it takes a lot less space. This obsession with crosscut sleds seems to be driven by what American weekend warriors do. Why?
> 
> Sheet materials? Surely best broken down with a track saw, or even a portable saw with a home made track, in a small shop environment



Great if one has all the toys available in the shop but if you haven't spent the couple grand for the mitre saw and the track saw you get the most from what you have. Why not skip the track saws and get a proper vertical panel saw and get perfect parts more quickly. I do think many go over the top with all the tracks, stops and clamps put on sleds but if you don't want them you don't have to put them on. I don't.

Don't we all select the tool that we perceive to work best for the job at hand? Just because you don't like the way I do something doesn't mean I'm wrong. I just get there differently. I'm happy to let you sit on the throne you have made for yourself unless you feel the need to look down on those around you.

Pete


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## JobandKnock (20 Apr 2021)

Inspector said:


> Why not skip the track saws and get a p4roper vertical panel saw and get perfect parts more quickly


Because I simply can't carry one around on site! (And in any case a standard sliding carriage panel saw such as a Panhans or Altendorf is arguably more accurate) As I said (here, or elsewhere) a track saw doesn't need to be a £1k top of the range set-up (maybe that is your perception of what it should be) - it can be as simple as a length of 6mm plywood with a piece of 2 x 1 PSE screwed to one edge used with a low cost portable rip saw. I use just such a set up at times with a little 18 volt cordless saw. That set-up will be a lot safer than trying to handle large size sheet materials on a standard table saw.

As to Biesmeyer style fences, they are dangerous for the reasons stated by others above. It is pretty simple to make them a lot safer by planting an auxiliary short rip fence on the face of the rip fence plate thus making, in effect, a "short rip fence" as espoused by others in this thread

I'd also argue that at least to a joiner or carpenter a crosscut saw (mitre saw) is far more useful than a table saw, given that a joiner or carpenter is likely to own one or more portable rip saws together with safety/material size issues that a sled can run into



Inspector said:


> Just because you don't like the way I do something doesn't mean I'm wrong. I just get there differently.


I stated an opinion, informed by my background, experience and training which you appear to take personally. I find you to be extremely defensive of a set up which has, to me at least, some very obvious shortcomings which you seem unwilling to defend or discuss without resorting to villifying me. So just what are the advantages (and shortfalls) of your approach, then? And should I change my ways of working?


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## Doug B (20 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Sorry facebook.
> Classic example of what no riving knife and a long fence can achieve
> 
> Facebook Groups
> ...


He couldn’t have bullseyed that computer screen any better


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## Inspector (20 Apr 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Because I simply can't carry one around on site! (And in any case a standard sliding carriage panel saw such as a Panhans or Altendorf is arguably more accurate) As I said a track saw doesn't need to be a £1k top of the range set-up (maybe that is your perception) - it can be as simple as a length of 6mm plywood with a piece of 2 x 1 PSE screwed to one edge used with a low cost portable rip saw. That set-up will be a lot safer than trying to handle large size sheet materials on a standard table saw.
> 
> As to Biesmeyer style fences, they are dangerous for the reasons stated by others above. It is pretty simple to make them a lot safer by planting an auxiliary short rip fence on the face of the rip fence plate thus making, in effect, a "short rip fence"
> 
> ...



I apologize for getting a little hot under the collar. I perceived your comments as a blanket condemnation of the use of sleds when you don't/ haven't used them. I shouldn't have done so.

We are not all professionals doing business either/or in a factory or on site. While I would love to have an Attendorf or any other slider I can't afford one nor would the floor of my shop support one. The wife would throw a fit if it dropped through and crushed her car unless I was under it.

While I do have a cheap track saw I rarely use it. I find it time consuming to set up for accurate cuts so reserve it for angled cuts across sheet goods or when it is too heavy to move, 25mm MDF for example. I also use it on rare occasions to rip an edge to straighten a board when cleaning up a bandsaw cut might not leave enough width. A rare occurrence. 

I have one of the first basic miter saws that doesn't compound or slid and the only use it gets is is rough work outside for making a shed or deck but it is largely unused. It is small and doesn't take up much space so I keep it.

I can use a circular saw to shorten longer boards 10' or more to more manageable sizes but handsaws work just as well for the purpose.

So my mainstay is the table saw. The large Saw Stop cabinet type actually. I attach a short fence when ripping and keep the riving knife on for buried cuts or when cutting where the guard with splitter and anti-kickback pawls won't work. The guard is on otherwise. The fence you describe is fine for sheet goods when used properly but not good for solid wood that can pinch the blade. 

The sleds come into play because they will allow better support, carrying both parts (work and waste) through the cut without splintering like a mitre gauge can. With temporary locators nailed, hot glued or two sided taped down, can allow safe hands off cuts at any position or blade angle that would be awkward and unsafe with a mitre gauge and it can hold awkward shapes like round that could never be done with a mitre gage. Different sleds, large and small, or purpose built can be made as needed and can be hung or stored along a wall several deep so they don't take up a lot of room. The only downsides to them is that the slot and fence can wear out from lots of use and blade tilting. When that happens it isn't a big deal to make another. The other downside is the depth of cut is reduced buy the thickness of the sheet it is made from. My buddy has made them from .125"/3mm aluminium sheet to minimize the depth of cut problem but I'd rather not risk tripping the blade brake on my saw so I use plywood. My father used one in his antique repair and refinishing business because of the versatility and I for the same reasons for over 40 years. 

Pete


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## Jacob (20 Apr 2021)

Inspector said:


> ..... I find it time consuming to set up for accurate cuts ...


Instead of fiddling about setting up cuts it's probably easier to work to lines and marks on the workpiece. You end up watching the line _and_ setting up the mitre gauge simultaneously.
Less time consuming than making jigs/sleds - probably why I've never felt the need, which I'm a bit mystified about!


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## Tugalis (21 Apr 2021)

Can someone explain the hate for crosscut sleds? 

I run a shop and we use the sled more than most things. Sheet materials are ripped down on the table saw. Crosscuts are made on the sled unless you count huge bits of timber like a 16' 8x4" The mitre saw is fine for most things but nothing beats the precision and cut quality like a table saw and sled. Mitre guages are not worth their weight. Usually too much slop to create anything worth having as the end result. We have a mitre sled which we built that is super accurate. 

The through type fences are fine for sheet material, the only time they really create an issue is with proper timber in which case we fit a shorter timber fence.

As for push sticks, Im not a huge fan. They create too many variables when it comes to holding the timber down. I prefer a pistol grip type, they help hold the timber onto the work surface and allow to create pressure pushing the timber against the fence. Plus your hand is above the height of the blade.


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## Jacob (21 Apr 2021)

Tugalis said:


> Can someone explain the hate for crosscut sleds?
> ..../


I don't 'hate' them but I've never felt the need for one and wonder if it's a little niche for enthusiasts.


> ....I prefer a pistol grip type, they help hold the timber onto the work surface and allow to create pressure pushing the timber against the fence. Plus your hand is above the height of the blade.


Push sticks also hold the timber on to the work surface and push timber against the fence. That's exactly what they are for. They also keep your hands further away from the cutter than most of the alternatives, and also increase your reach - you can make a longer pass in one movement without changing grip, or flip offcuts away from the back of the blade without getting close to it, etc


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## Cabinetman (21 Apr 2021)

Well Tugalis, I recommend you read this thread from the beginning one of the points of the thread is that we are trying to stop people using those pistol grip type things you describe as they appear to be implicated in the large number of amputations in the US 10 a day on average. Push sticks do not create too many variables as you say they are an extremely safe way to keep your hands well away from the blade. Ian


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## Doug71 (21 Apr 2021)

I'm starting to think it's a generation thing, I get the impression all the old boys (no offence meant by that, I'm including myself in there) have a saw with sliding table and use push sticks but the younger ones use sleds and different shapes of push stick.

I guess the difference is us old boys weren't taught our trade by Youtube


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## RobinBHM (21 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Sorry facebook.
> Classic example of what no riving knife and a long fence can achieve
> 
> Facebook Groups
> ...


thats pretty impressive -especially the noise.

I guess its real -its almost too dramatic to be real 

and how did he manage to get out of the way?


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## Jacob (21 Apr 2021)

Doug71 said:


> I'm starting to think it's a generation thing, I get the impression all the old boys (no offence meant by that, I'm including myself in there) have a saw with sliding table and use push sticks but the younger ones use sleds and different shapes of push stick.
> 
> I guess the difference is us old boys weren't taught our trade by Youtube


T'other way round - it's the old boys who often seem to be short of a finger or two, I can think of several I know. Short of whole forearm in one case - he worked in an old fashioned timber yard with huge machines. They probably thought push sticks were for girls.
Many higher safety standards are relatively recent


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## RobinBHM (21 Apr 2021)

I have to confess, I tend to use some offcuts to be used as push sticks -usually over 600mm long


I must get around to cutting proper push sticks -I think in MDF or Plywood


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## Tugalis (21 Apr 2021)

Ian, Im a little confused. Where in the post does it say that a specific push stick or block is responsible for an injury? I see it states 10 people a day, but where is the source for saying its a particular type of push stick/block or use? 

I have just had a quick google and there is an article from Popular woodworking which references one from USA Today but I cant seem to find that. Ill link it in below. I've checked the OSHA website and they don't differentiate one push stick to another and being more of a problem. HSE says to use the bird mouth type but like I said, I use a table saw all day long and find the pistol type grip to give more control. We cut 1000s of sheets a year on our cabinet saw. There have a been a number of times where that type of stick with the birds mouth wouldn't have helped where the pistol type grip has done. 

I guess those who were taught their trade in the past were in shops which had full size saws with sliding tables. They are not as common today as they used to be and most people will start with a smaller job site saw or cabinet saw due to the initial investment cost. There is nothing wrong with learning from YouTube, we all do it and it has helped the general public become more self sufficient which I think is a great thing. Yes it needs to be done safely but we should all be responsible for our own safety and not rely on something we watch or read from anyone.





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Table Saw Injury Numbers in Perspective | Popular Woodworking


© As are all of our blog posts, this story is protected by copyright; Popular Woodworking Magazine, 2011. When the debate over table saw safety gets heated, numbers are brought out to bolster one side…




www.popularwoodworking.com





For clarification, this is the type of stick I am talking about.





__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com


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## akirk (21 Apr 2021)

I think the concern with the pistol type push sticks is simply where your hands end up - over the blade...
think of an envelope in the shape of a cube or sphere a certain distance from the blade - if your hands never enter that envelope, then there is a very minimal chance of blade and hand meeting... a more traditional push stick puts your hand further away from the wood, the pistol grip style brings your hand forward and above...

imagine a skateboard and stepping on the back so that the front lifts and the back goes under it - that is a move for example where what is above can come down and contact what is below and if for example you are using a pistol grip push stick above a small piece of wood - you are pushing down on it and the only thing protecting you is the push stick and effectively wood and table resisting your push... if the piece of wood you are cutting were move more suddenly than expected, or something similar happen, then your push direction is taking your hand straight down at the blade - your push is all forwards and down to hold the wood in place - remove that wood and you and push stick are into the blade... as a comparator the bird's mouth style of push stick could have the same issue, but in an incident where the wood stopped resisting, the force of your push would still take you down but 300mm away from the blade, onto the table = safer...


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## Cabinetman (21 Apr 2021)

It’s more of a correlation, the Americans very rarely use push sticks – they use push blocks and similar, reports (depending where you look) say there are between 60,000 and 90,000 Tablesaw injuries a year in the US and on average 10 amputations per day as akirk just very succinctly put it, If your hands aren’t close you’re probably not going to get hurt. Ian


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## Spectric (21 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Thanks doctor Bob, he had his hands either side of that bit of wood pushing it through, what a total numpty! And how on earth anybody can have the television on in a workshop, never get anything done at all, 3/4 of the time I have the radio turned off as it’s too distracting. Hell he was lucky.


Distractions are a real cause of accidents, look back to the days of mining and the winchman in charge of the pit cage. He was shut away in the winch house all on his own so as not to be distracted. I ended up with hinge thumb due to being distracted whilst using a small axe so having a Tv is just asking for trouble.


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## powertools (21 Apr 2021)

I don't expect any replies to this post but out of interest I am wondering what you guys who advocate using 2 flimsy pushsticks to control the wood over your table saw what do you use to control the wood over your planer?


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## Jacob (21 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I don't expect any replies to this post


Why not, out of interest?


> but out of interest I am wondering what you guys who advocate using 2 flimsy pushsticks to control the wood over your table saw what do you use to control the wood over your planer?


I don't use flimsy push sticks myself - they are quite tough.
One of the big boons of push stick over planer is the long reach - can be one movement through without changing hand position.
You also have more choice of where you can position the sticks as compared to your hands - better control and losing a bit of stick is better than cutting a finger
One essential point where you really need them is the end of a pass when the cutters are suddenly exposed; if its a big piece it's the point where you are most likely to lose control.
You can pass little pieces over the top quite safely ... and so on.
Planer not quite as risky as a TS but still gives a very nasty cut and push sticks are essential if any contact has to be made nearer the cutters than say 10".
Same goes for spindle moulder etc.


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## Cabinetman (21 Apr 2021)

If you think push sticks are flimsy I would suggest you’re using the wrong type, with the sort I showed in the first photo there is no movement of the wood except for where I want it to go. No I don’t use anything except my hands on my planer, it is well guarded so that my hands can’t go anywhere near the blades.
The guard is adjusted so that only the wood can pass underneath it, start to push the wood along the top of the planer until the wood starts to go under the guard then the hand that is nearest to it goes over the top of the guard and lands on the wood at the far side whilst the other hand keeps pushing from the back when that hand approaches the guard too it to then goes over the top and lands on the wood to continue the cut, at no time are either of my hands within six inches of the cutters (which are covered by the guard at all times)


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## doctor Bob (21 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> thats pretty impressive -especially the noise.
> 
> I guess its real -its almost too dramatic to be real
> 
> and how did he manage to get out of the way?



From the noise I'm guessing there was no riving knife as the sound indicates that the board was nipping up the blade and slowing it down, I suspect he's had a few kick backs hence he knew what may be coming, however I bet he's never had one like that.

I'll come clean and say I have all the gear, riving knife, crown guard, £20000 saw and my record kick back was on a nice day when we had the roller shutter open, the oak board shot out of the workshop across the parking bays, over the road and first ground contact was 30m away.


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## doctor Bob (21 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I don't expect any replies to this post but out of interest I am wondering what you guys who advocate using 2 flimsy pushsticks to control the wood over your table saw what do you use to control the wood over your planer?



Again as a business it's a different approach, we are lucky enough that 95% of our stuff goes through the 4 sider rather than an over and under process.


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## TRITON (22 Apr 2021)

> but out of interest I am wondering what you guys who advocate using 2 flimsy pushsticks to control the wood over your table saw what do you use to control the wood over your planer?


Its a case of how you feed it. the saw you feed it from the front intot he blade, the surfacer you feed it in, but your hands are at the outfeed table. Most have a block with a lip that is used to push the last of the board through, but even that isnt the full story as the saw blade is visible, the surfacer its covered, and the only time the blades are visible is at the start and at the end of the cut.

" Flimsy" now now, thats enough of that


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## scooby (22 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> You make some very good points there Doug, makes me wonder if that’s why I have never had a kickback.
> Have you ever suffered one Doug?



Sorry to hijack your question to Doug, never had a 'traditional' kickback but I've got an 'interesting' story.

When I was apprenticing about 25 years ago, the firm had a big dimensioning panel saw. The type where you could cut 10'x4' sheets on your own, the only help you needed was to lift them. When I started there, the guard and riving knife had been removed (for grooving) and never replaced. I cut a piece of 3/4" blockboard with an offcut roughly 14"x14". As I went to get the piece I needed, I accidentally nudged the offcut into the rising teeth and it was launched at an alarming pace. It had a decent amount of weight and didn't stop travelling until it hit a set of office drawers about 12 foot away and 4 foot off the floor

The thought of getting that in the face is still frightening. The foreman (the genius who removed all the safety features) usually spent large amounts of time standing next to the drawers (his desk was right next to them). Fortunately, he was brewing up at the time so I got a cup of tea and a lot of verbal abuse


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## Trainee neophyte (22 Apr 2021)

A while ago I did a YouTube search for "table saw accident", or similar, and the majority seemed to be from using the pistol grip style push stick, which through a moment's inattention came into contact with the saw blade after the workpiece was through the saw. This imparts a rotational force to stick and hand, and brings the top of your hand into contact with the teeth. All at 90mph, or thereabouts. I'm not keen to reenact that, so will stick with 2 push sticks.


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## LJM (22 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I don't expect any replies to this post but out of interest I am wondering what you guys who advocate using 2 flimsy pushsticks to control the wood over your table saw what do you use to control the wood over your planer?



Who’s using “flimsy” push sticks? As others have said, if a push stick is flimsy, you’re using the wrong one. However, the push sticks needn’t be something to fight the material with; with a properly set up machine, with and appropriate and sharp blade, used with sufficient support for the workpiece and correct technique, the push sticks are not used to fight the material, but simply to guide it through the machine.


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## Jacob (22 Apr 2021)

scooby said:


> Sorry to hijack your question to Doug, never had a 'traditional' kickback but I've got an 'interesting' story.
> 
> When I was apprenticing about 25 years ago, the firm had a big dimensioning panel saw. The type where you could cut 10'x4' sheets on your own, the only help you needed was to lift them. When I started there, the guard and riving knife had been removed (for grooving) and never replaced. I cut a piece of 3/4" blockboard with an offcut roughly 14"x14". As I went to get the piece I needed, I accidentally nudged the offcut into the rising teeth and it was launched at an alarming pace. It had a decent amount of weight and didn't stop travelling until it hit a set of office drawers about 12 foot away and 4 foot off the floor
> 
> The thought of getting that in the face is still frightening. The foreman (the genius who removed all the safety features) usually spent large amounts of time standing next to the drawers (his desk was right next to them). Fortunately, he was brewing up at the time so I got a cup of tea and a lot of verbal abuse


That is a "traditional" kick back. They are all different, depending on what and how stuff is being cut.


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## Sgian Dubh (22 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> ... what do you use to control the wood over your planer?


Hands, derived from the usual full name of the machine, I suppose, i.e., overhand surface plane. The name implies (maybe incorrectly, I'm not sure) the methodology is to feed the wood using a hand over hand technique. That's essentially how I've done flatting or surfacing and edging for close to fifty years now, and I'd say my method is pretty much identical to what I was taught when I trained.

I think my only modification to the basic technique is to occasionally wear snug fitting work gloves, the ones with sticky nitrile bits on the palm side because they can help enormously with grip, which can be really helpful for some flatting and edging jobs. I've never been a fan of gloves and woodworking in general, and in particular whilst feeding wood into machinery, or vice-versa because they can desensitize the feedback from the fingertips, which I think is important for most woodworking tasks. But, still, I do make an exception or two, and I will use gloves for some flatting or surfacing tasks. Slainte.


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## Daniel2 (22 Apr 2021)

Same for me with the planer; hand over hand, and employing grippy gloves when dealing with slippy timber.
I can still count to ten without taking my socks off  
Again, awareness and focus are key.


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## Jacob (22 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Same for me with the planer; hand over hand, and employing grippy gloves when dealing with slippy timber.
> I can still count to ten without taking my socks off
> Again, awareness and focus are key.


Yes to grippy gloves, cheap rigger gloves with leather palms. But I also use the sticks over the planer, just habit but does have advantages see earlier post.


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## Cabinetman (22 Apr 2021)

Thanks gentlemen, never thought to use grippy gloves in that situation and I’m sure it will help so I will and future. Cheers


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## Doug71 (22 Apr 2021)

I avoid gloves when using spinning things, I know someone who had a bad accident from the glove getting caught.

I did see an advert the other day for some gloves where the fingers tore off easily if they got caught in something, these aren't the actual ones but look to work the same, worth considering if using gloves with machinery.



https://www.mscdirect.co.uk/ANS-10003D/SEARCH:CATEGORY/product.html


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## Daniel2 (22 Apr 2021)

Doug71 said:


> I avoid gloves when using spinning things, I know someone who had a bad accident from the glove getting caught.
> 
> I did see an advert the other day for some gloves where the fingers tore off easily if they got caught in something, these aren't the actual ones but look to work the same, worth considering if using gloves with machinery.
> 
> ...



I'm of the same opinion. Generally speaking I won't wear gloves with any revolving machinery.
I also prefer the sensitive feedback.
But, as with all rules, there are occasional exceptions.
It's all to do with my risk assessment of the task. In the case of a slippy piece of timber, I feel it safer that the workpiece is securely gripped thus reducing the risk of it kicking backwards, and probably giving me a nice splinter in the palm while it's at it.
Naturally, the grippy gloves I refer to are of the tight fitting variety.


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## doctor Bob (22 Apr 2021)

surely everyone does a quick risk assessment, it's just some people have different acceptable levels.


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## Tugalis (22 Apr 2021)

Don't wear gloves when working with machinery in the shop. That is a sure fire way to lose a finger or hand in my opinion. 

" It’s more of a correlation, the Americans very rarely use push sticks – they use push blocks and similar " you can draw correlations from anything. The difficulty from drawing this conclusion is the sheer number of accidents where we don't know anything about the incident. I would argue it has more to do with inexperience and distractions than anything else. Couple that with the litigation society like the US has, I doubt very much if OSHA would recommend a specific type if there is more evidence that it causes injuries over others. 





__





eTool : Woodworking | Occupational Safety and Health Administration







www.osha.gov





If someone can find some studies or other info on specific pushstick types and how the create an unsafe working environment Im all ears...

I just looked through the front page of Youtube for table saw accidents and I am struggling to find videos which show that the pistol type grip is the issue. More so not paying attention at the job in hand. Like I said before, I cut 1000s of sheets of timber a year and the pistol type grip is by far the safest option in my opinion when cutting sheet goods. You should always follow good practices like the blade not protruding more than 1/4" above the material which will minimise any risk. Another important thing to learn is to let go and to understand when you need to let go and when you need to hold on. This is something that again is learnt over time. 

Im not a huge fan of the gripper blocks by the way, I think they are a bad idea on the table saw. A great idea on the planer though as you have more room to retreat and move away should anything go wrong plus you want to keep that timber moving in a certain direction. We use a homemade version with sandpaper on the reverse side.


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## Sgian Dubh (22 Apr 2021)

Tugalis said:


> Don't wear gloves when working with machinery in the shop. That is a sure fire way to lose a finger or hand in my opinion.


In general, I'm partially in agreement with you, particularly if the gloves in question are what I can best describe as baggy fitting on the fingers, and perhaps with floppy, long and large cuffs. I've seen a few woodworkers using this type of glove whilst feeding saws, spindle moulders, overhead routers and the like, which always makes me wince and rather anxiously draw in breath.

As doctor bob mentions above, we can all do a swift self-risk assessment, and I've risk assessed feeding slippery wood (usually stuff that's been planed before, sometimes quite large) or long and heavy lumps, both of which, bare-handed, need considerable downforce to generate the necessary forward momentum on the overhand surface planer, something I especially don't like at the start of the cut, even with the bridge guard in place. Incidentally, if I was still living and working in the US where the equivalent guard is a sprung mounted kidney shaped affair that rotates horizontally anti-clockwise as the operator feeds the wood I'd like the situation even less.

My conclusion was that it was safer for me to use nitrile palmed/fingered tight fitting gloves for those situations than to use bare hands. Prior to adopting the occasional glove wearing strategy for those specific situations, I regularly found the palms of my bare hands slipped along the wood surface, and/or I really couldn't generate suitable forward momentum. So, for those circumstances outlined, gloves (of the type I've described) it is, because I certainly find it more reassuring to know that my hands aren't going to slip. In conclusion, I'd say glove wearing for specific circumstances, as I've described, is safer. Slainte.


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## Daniel2 (22 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> surely everyone does a quick risk assessment, it's just some people have different acceptable levels.



I would like to share your optimism Bob, but I don't think everyone does. 
Hence the high number of easily avoidable accidents.


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## Doug71 (22 Apr 2021)

@Tugalis I'm just curious why you don't have a sliding panel saw considering the amount of sheets you cut, you look to have enough room? 

I guess your current set up must work for you but sliding tables just seem so much easier for handling sheets.


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## Inspector (22 Apr 2021)

Before the advent of sticky thin gloves the answer to slippery wood on a jointer/surface was to spit on your hands. It gives you temporary grip.  

While I don't like the saw handle type push sticks or Grippers and don't use them myself, I think the higher rate of table saw injuries here is more of a function of using bare blades than the type of push sticks. If there were a culture of using guards, riving knives first and when a guard must be left off other means of working with the hands well away from the work including push sticks then there would be far fewer accidents for us to be discussing. Part of the reason guards are not used as much as the should be is because they are/were so poorly designed and required too much time to attach and remove so people left/leave them off. With my SawStop I can switch from blade guard to riving knife in less than a minute because of the lever you flick on and off. No nuts and bolts to fool around with. Bad design has much to do with poor practices and attitudes.

Pete


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## Jacob (22 Apr 2021)

Inspector said:


> ..
> 
> While I don't like the saw handle type push sticks or Grippers and don't use them myself, I think the higher rate of table saw injuries here is more of a function of using bare blades than the type of push sticks. ........


More a function of a culture of not using push sticks - which reduce accident risk close to zero, even with bare blades.


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## TRITON (22 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Thanks gentlemen, never thought to use grippy gloves in that situation and I’m sure it will help so I will and future. Cheers


Sure ?, personally I'd never wear gloves in machining tasks.
Catch a finger on a blade and you damage the finger. Catch a glove on a blade and risk it pulling your whole hand into it.

The reasons are the same for sleeves up ABOVE the elbows. HSE understand and apprenticeships and trainers understand that without clothing being present your injuries will be considerably less.

Now if you do actual training in machinery, and few here will have such qualifications. There will be no gloves allowed and no rolled down sleeves.


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## Jake (22 Apr 2021)

Riving knife is an aid to reduce risk of kickback, not sawing fingers off. Guards help somewhat. Pushsticks just make total sense and I cannot understand anyone who does not use them, what's the downside?


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## TRITON (22 Apr 2021)

..-


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## Jacob (22 Apr 2021)

Jake said:


> Riving knife is an aid to reduce risk of kickback, not sawing fingers off. Guards help somewhat. Pushsticks just make total sense and I cannot understand anyone who does not use them, what's the downside?


Not very macho having no scars and all your fingers?


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## Cabinetman (22 Apr 2021)

Inspector said:


> Before the advent of sticky thin gloves the answer to slippery wood on a jointer/surface was to spit on your hands. It gives you temporary grip.
> 
> While I don't like the saw handle type push sticks or Grippers and don't use them myself, I think the higher rate of table saw injuries here is more of a function of using bare blades than the type of push sticks. If there were a culture of using guards, riving knives first and when a guard must be left off other means of working with the hands well away from the work including push sticks then there would be far fewer accidents for us to be discussing. Part of the reason guards are not used as much as the should be is because they are/were so poorly designed and required too much time to attach and remove so people left/leave them off. With my SawStop I can switch from blade guard to riving knife in less than a minute because of the lever you flick on and off. No nuts and bolts to fool around with. Bad design has much to do with poor practices and attitudes.
> 
> Pete


 I see where you’re coming from Pete, but also if you’re using push blocks and to some extent the other ones with a handle you have to remove the crown guard and in some cases the riving knife, so it’s an ever descending spiral that leads to accidents. Ian


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## MikeJhn (23 Apr 2021)

Just about as safe as I could make my table saw, you can just see on the fence the JessEm stock guides, a major contribution to safety.


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## Jacob (23 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Just about as safe as I could make my table saw, you can just see on the fence the JessEm stock guides, a major contribution to safety.View attachment 108901


Looks good, but is it as safe as just having a crown guard and two push sticks? Probably not, not to mention expensive and inconvenient.


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## Cabinetman (23 Apr 2021)

Whilst I agree it should stop kickbacks it appears to be not so handy having to lower the blade below the table to be able to set the stock guides to the right height and then lift the blade up again to make your cut, please do use push sticks with it though won’t you. Ian


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## MikeJhn (24 Apr 2021)

Of course I use push stick's, it's not inconvenient in any way, the blade does not have to be lowered to set the stock guides, whatever made you think that, the fence can be moved away from the blade. 

Obviously neither of you have used the JessEm stock guides, I have them fitted to my router table as well, so well versed in using them.


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## Cabinetman (24 Apr 2021)

I watched the company’s video and that’s what they said to do, obviously they’re not as bright as you and moving the fence is a lot easier. Ian


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## doctor Bob (24 Apr 2021)

One of the biggest factors is saw sharpness, people tend to try to get the most out of a blade, usually well past the point it should have been changed.


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## Tugalis (24 Apr 2021)

Sgian 


Sgian Dubh said:


> My conclusion was that it was safer for me to use nitrile palmed/fingered tight fitting gloves



Do you mean the blue or black type medical gloves? That I can see working well and not being too much of a safety risk but always need to be careful. 




Doug71 said:


> @Tugalis I'm just curious why you don't have a sliding panel saw considering the amount of sheets you cut, you look to have enough room?
> 
> I guess your current set up must work for you but sliding tables just seem so much easier for handling sheets.



We had planned on picking up a Hammer K3 Winner a few years ago, business focus changed so we decided not to take the hit (£5500) then business focus changed again and then again so now we are looking for a panel saw lol. Its a big expense if not totally needed and unless we can justify it then it will take a while for it to pay for itself. The joy! Covid really put a spanner in the works over the last 12 months, we were doing a lot of work for restaurants and bars before which meant more work on the laser and CNC machine. Once that dried up we went back to timber sheet cutting and smaller private jobs....one day Ill pick one up lol.


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## Sgian Dubh (24 Apr 2021)

Tugalis said:


> Do you mean the blue or black type medical gloves? That I can see working well and not being too much of a safety risk but always need to be careful.


Something like these, for example, *from Screwfix.* Slainte.


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## RobinBHM (25 Apr 2021)

I think most kickbacks are a result of wood being trapped between fence and sawblade.

If the fence stops soon after the gullets the workpiece just falls to one side.

Also the danger comes from the shape and size of the piece being cut.

As Bob says: do a risk assessment.


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## RobinBHM (25 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> More a function of a culture of not using push sticks - which reduce accident risk close to zero, even with bare blades.


there is an added benefit of using 2 push sticks -you can use them to apply pressure just in front of the blade -which makes it much easier to ensure the timber is kept against the fence and down on the bed. 

The result is more accurate work -Im talking about smaller components of course


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## Doug71 (25 Apr 2021)

These were the gloves with tear off fingers that I saw, good idea if you are using machinery.










uvex phynomic X-FOAM Finger Protection Gloves


These gloves feature unique break sections in the fingers designed to reduce tear resistance. This feature hugely reduces the risk of serious hand injuries when using power tools or in certain circumstances where there is possible contact with moving...




www.axminstertools.com


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2021)

Doug71 said:


> These were the gloves with tear off fingers that I saw, good idea if you are using machinery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good idea but if you are coming close enough to need gloves like these you really should be using two push sticks as well.


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## Doug71 (25 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Good idea but if you are coming close enough to need gloves like these you really should be using two push sticks as well.



Yes but I wasn't just thinking of table saws, any piece of machinery with any kind of spinning part/shaft is not a great place to wear gloves (or rings).


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## Daniel2 (25 Apr 2021)

The only exception I make to *not wearing gloves at all* in proximity to revolving machinery, is that
of passing slippery wood over the surface planer.


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## MikeJhn (26 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I think most kickbacks are a result of wood being trapped between fence and sawblade.
> 
> If the fence stops soon after the gullets the workpiece just falls to one side.
> 
> ...





RobinBHM said:


> there is an added benefit of using 2 push sticks -you can use them to apply pressure just in front of the blade -which makes it much easier to ensure the timber is kept against the fence and down on the bed.



And using the JessEm stock guides gets over both the above mentioned problems, holds the stock against the fence and down on the table.


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## Cabinetman (26 Apr 2021)

Well it’s your money you can do with it as you wish but I would find them inconvenient to use and rather expensive to buy at £210. Ian


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## RobinBHM (26 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> And using the JessEm stock guides gets over both the above mentioned problems, holds the stock against the fence and down on the table.


Yes the JessEm stock guides look great.....I keep looking at them but find it hard to justify the price.


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## RobinBHM (26 Apr 2021)

I have to say, I can't think of an occasion when I've had slippery wood to push over the surface planer.

99% of what I flatten is rough sawn.

I suppose once faced, boards have a planed face and then go against the fence as the 2nd part of face and edging.

Mind you most work I've done in the last 20 years is to flatten stock to then go through a 4 sider.


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2021)

Yes gloves for splintery rough sawn timber especially if it's heavy - gloves give you more control, which is a safety feature in its own right.
Take the point about where they are hazardous though - possibly on a lathe where friction could pull at them?


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## MikeJhn (27 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Well it’s your money you can do with it as you wish but I would find them inconvenient to use and rather expensive to buy at £210. Ian


I don't put a price on my safety and I don't find them in any way inconvenient.


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## Daniel2 (27 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> *I don't put a price on my safety* and I don't find them in any way inconvenient.



An often exploited emmotive argument to drive sales.


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## MikeJhn (28 Apr 2021)

Why would I be trying to drive sales, very strange post, but I do still have all of my fingers.


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## Ozi (28 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> This is after somebody asked on another thread how to use push sticks and so I looked online to see what there was and was a bit horrified at some of the contraptions that are being promoted.
> First off, this might not be 100% to the letter of the rules and I’m sure it will be pointed out to me! But it is a million miles better than the dangerous things you see on YouTube.
> View attachment 108502
> 
> ...


Came back to say thanks, not just feeling safer but getting better cuts as well


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## Cabinetman (28 Apr 2021)

Ozi said:


> Came back to say thanks, not just feeling safer but getting better cuts as well


Thank you so much Ozi, that’s really nice of you to say so, and glad to hear it’s working well for you. Ian


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## Daniel2 (28 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Why would I be trying to drive sales, very strange post, but I do still have all of my fingers.



It was just an observation aimed at the selling world and how they (ab)use that argument.
I certainly didn't mean to imply yourself Mike


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## TRITON (28 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> The only exception I make to *not wearing gloves at all* in proximity to revolving machinery, is that
> of passing slippery wood over the surface planer.


I might have cracked that with a sanding block you get from lidl. powerfix i think makes them.
Basically its a flat base for holding sandpaper(clips each side similar to those on a regular power sander) with a big wooden handle on top. 40 grit paper and it gives you something to hold... hang on, off to look for pic...


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## MikeJhn (29 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> It was just an observation aimed at the selling world and how they (ab)use that argument.
> I certainly didn't mean to imply yourself Mike


Is it possible to abuse an argument for Health and Safety, I think its a very often used to allow the unwary to do something unsafe, because they can't be bothered to do it properly, Health and Safety. should never be taken lightly or flippantly, the often seen raised eyebrows with a tut and the words "Health and Safety eh" is all too often the abuse it gets.


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## JobandKnock (29 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Just about as safe as I could make my table saw, you can just see on the fence the JessEm stock guides, a major contribution to safety.View attachment 108901


I think you _could_ make it safer - by having a short rip fence. The long through fence you have means that if you saw reaction timber it could get pinched between the blade and the fence and whilst your guides may minimise the tendency to kick back I very much doubt it will do the saw much good and you will still potentially have a greater risk of kickback. With a short position rip fence top guides are redundant.

Like the crown guard , though. Good idea


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## Daniel2 (29 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Is it possible to abuse an argument for Health and Safety, I think its a very often used to allow the unwary to do something unsafe, because they can't be bothered to do it properly, Health and Safety. should never be taken lightly or flippantly, the often seen raised eyebrows with a tut and the words "Health and Safety eh" is all too often the abuse it gets.



I most certainly do not take safe working practice lightly.
If my observation was interpreted as flippant, then I clearly didn't express
myself as intended.


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## Bob Chapman (29 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> Is it possible to abuse an argument for Health and Safety, I think its a very often used to allow the unwary to do something unsafe, because they can't be bothered to do it properly, Health and Safety. should never be taken lightly or flippantly, the often seen raised eyebrows with a tut and the words "Health and Safety eh" is all too often the abuse it gets.



Yes, of course it's possible. An argument for buying some spurious piece of equipment, on the grounds that it would make working safer, would be an abuse. I agree totally with your premise that health and safety should not be overlooked or ignored, but it is possible to take advantage of people's ignorance or fears to sell them stuff that won't help them or make them safer.
Bob


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## novocaine (29 Apr 2021)

Bob Chapman said:


> Yes, of course it's possible. An argument for buying some spurious piece of equipment, on the grounds that it would make working safer, would be an abuse. I agree totally with your premise that health and safety should not be overlooked or ignored, but it is possible to take advantage of people's ignorance or fears to sell them stuff that won't help them or make them safer.
> Bob



it's called the ALARP principle and it's the basis of H&S in the UK, Europe and most of the world (unless you are in the states, than it's ALARA). I could give a history lesson on lord cullens step change in safety and edwards vs the coal board (where the principles of ALARP and the health and safety at work act stem from) but I won't, because. 

ALARP, the point at which the cost of further reduction (in terms of time, effort or monetary expense) of risk is grossly disproportionate to the level of reduction. 
very quick and dirty argument:

push stick, 
cost: couple of quid, 
amount of reduction of risk: lots. 
outcome: implement. (also falls under legislation and good practice within industry which are the first steps of ALARP)*

silly expensive gadget,
Cost: 10 times that of push sticks, nearing the cost of the tool:
amount of reduction of risk: after implementing push sticks, virtually nothing. 
outcome: don't implement. *

There is a cost limit of safety, saying there isn't is defeating the point of H&S. 

for anyone interested it's worth looking at the hierarchy or control and the HSE framework of tolerability, if you want to place no cost against safety, because the answer will always be, don't do it. the one stop shop in the UK for this is the HSE document Reducing Risk and Protecting People (R2P2), which is a bit long in the tooth now but still applicable. 

the previous statement is, I agree an abuse of H&S, typically made by someone with little to no knowledge of the basic principles of safety. 

* none of this takes account of modification factors or weighting of safety.


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## Daniel2 (29 Apr 2021)

novocaine said:


> it's called the ALARP principle and it's the basis of H&S in the UK, Europe and most of the world (unless you are in the states, than it's ALARA). I could give a history lesson on lord cullens step change in safety and edwards vs the coal board (where the principles of ALARP and the health and safety at work act stem from) but I won't, because.
> 
> ALARP, the point at which the cost of further reduction (in terms of time, effort or monetary expense) of risk is grossly disproportionate to the level of reduction.
> very quick and dirty argument:
> ...



You managed to express my sentiment much better than I did.


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2021)

Had to look it up: _ALARP, which stands for "as low as reasonably practicable", or ALARA ("as low as reasonably achievable"),_
Common sense really and if safety _as low as reasonably practicable _is not safe enough - just don't do it!


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## Ozi (29 Apr 2021)

Bob Chapman said:


> Yes, of course it's possible. An argument for buying some spurious piece of equipment, on the grounds that it would make working safer, would be an abuse. I agree totally with your premise that health and safety should not be overlooked or ignored, but it is possible to take advantage of people's ignorance or fears to sell them stuff that won't help them or make them safer.
> Bob


I used to work in safety inspection, mainly LOLER and PUWER but also LEVs. The thing that used to annoy me far more than the "it's health and safety gone mad" was when it had. If you ask or worse force people to do stupid things they ignore them, then they ignore the ones they don't understand. Sell someone a piece of junk and they are less likely to buy something good when it comes along. One of the good things about this site for me is getting to hear from people who have used kit, understand it and share the knowledge - thanks guys I'm learning a lot.


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## simoncmason (29 Apr 2021)

Useful thread, thanks @Cabinetman for starting it, I for one will be a bit safer using my table saw - it came with one pushstick so I use this to push the work along, but have used my hand to push the wood into the fence, or an offcut of wood if the work piece was too narrow. 

Having read this it is now obvious to me that two push sticks and hands kept behind the table at all times is a sensible rule to adopt.


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## LJM (29 Apr 2021)

Though not from the HSE perspective, part of the ALARP process for an employer (at least in the industry in which I work) is to understand the financial cost of the worst case outcome.

So let’s say the loss of a hand is the worst case scenario for a machine. The cost of safety is weighed against the financial cost to the company if someone looses a hand. From memory of the last contract I signed, that was about £30k. That’s then your upper limit on additional safety for that machine.

Applying the same principles to safety on my own machines, even a severe cut to my hand would prevent me from working. I’m self employed. That would cost significantly more than, for example, a set of stock guides.

So given that I’m single, and use these machine alone, I am certainly considering a set of stock guides as an extra safety measure, guarding against the little mishaps that can happen to a lone worker; that moment of distraction when the neighbours head appears around the door asking exactly how much longer I’ll be making a racket!


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## Trainee neophyte (29 Apr 2021)

The fence on my table saw runs the full length of the table. I happen to have a spare which fits, but belongs to the bandsaw (Axminster very kindly sent me a replacement because there was a tiny dink in the first one). Would it be insane for me to shorten the spare fence to use for ripping? It seems a brutal thing to do, but adding offcuts to use as a temporary fence always feels clumsy, and the fence is still there running the full length, but with a bit of wood _and_ a clamp in between it and the workpiece to add extra excitement.

If I did this, where exactly do I cut it to stop at the correct point? At the arbor? Somewhere between the teeth at maximum height and the arbor? Before the teeth? 

Your thoughts would be welcome.


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## Spectric (29 Apr 2021)

LJM said:


> So let’s say the loss of a hand is the worst case scenario for a machine. The cost of safety is weighed against the financial cost to the company if someone looses a hand. From memory of the last contract I signed, that was about £30k. That’s then your upper limit on additional safety for that machine.


There is something wrong here with this statement, safety is all about preventing a potential hazzard from occuring by implementing suitable safety measures to reduce the risk, in this case one would be suitable guards which would be part of a PUWER assessment . You cannot put a value of say £30k on someones hand and then decide it will be to expensive to reduce this hazzard so an occasional hand loss is acceptable, there has been a few major companies in the auto industry that got heavily penalised for basicaly just that. I believe one of them was to do with tyres and they ignored the manufacturers recomendations and had some fatal accidents as a result, rather than address the immediate issue they thought it would be easier and cheaper to just settle the few lawsuits that may arise.


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## doctor Bob (29 Apr 2021)

LJM said:


> Though not from the HSE perspective, part of the ALARP process for an employer (at least in the industry in which I work) is to understand the financial cost of the worst case outcome.
> 
> So let’s say the loss of a hand is the worst case scenario for a machine. The cost of safety is weighed against the financial cost to the company if someone looses a hand. From memory of the last contract I signed, that was about £30k. That’s then your upper limit on additional safety for that machine.



I have never seen that principle in operation. I find it very surprising it exists on that basis.


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## Spectric (29 Apr 2021)

That may be where the saying blood, sweat and tears comes from!


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## Cabinetman (29 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> The fence on my table saw runs the full length of the table. I happen to have a spare which fits, but belongs to the bandsaw (Axminster very kindly sent me a replacement because there was a tiny dink in the first one). Would it be insane for me to shorten the spare fence to use for ripping? It seems a brutal thing to do, but adding offcuts to use as a temporary fence always feels clumsy, and the fence is still there running the full length, but with a bit of wood _and_ a clamp in between it and the workpiece to add extra excitement.
> 
> If I did this, where exactly do I cut it to stop at the correct point? At the arbor? Somewhere between the teeth at maximum height and the arbor? Before the teeth?
> 
> Your thoughts would be welcome.



Hi well the health and safety executive say the fence should stop somewhere around the gullet of the first tooth the wood meets, obviously that changes with moving the blade up and down, personally I’m not quite so rigid and as long as it’s somewhere between there and the centre of the blade I’m happy, I’m lucky on my saw that my fence which is an aluminium extrusion is held on with two levers so that I can move the fence in and out as required.
In your case I think I would fix a permanent short fence to your saws fence so that wherever the blade is vertically, it’s somewhere between the gullet and the arbor, talking off the top of my head here, you may find it useful if you extend your new short fence towards you a few inches to give you that little bit more run-up. Ian


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## HamsterJam (30 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Hi well the health and safety executive say the fence should stop somewhere around the gullet of the first tooth the wood meets, obviously that changes with moving the blade up and down, personally I’m not quite so rigid and as long as it’s somewhere between there and the centre of the blade I’m happy, I’m lucky on my saw that my fence which is an aluminium extrusion is held on with two levers so that I can move the fence in and out as required.
> In your case I think I would fix a permanent short fence to your saws fence so that wherever the blade is vertically, it’s somewhere between the gullet and the arbor, talking off the top of my head here, you may find it useful if you extend your new short fence towards you a few inches to give you that little bit more run-up. Ian



I’m sure this is a common feature but the fence on my Bosch site saw is made up of two aluminium extrusions. The main fence is set as normal and the other actas a sub fence which is fixed to the main fence by two bolts and wing nuts. Loosening the wing nuts allows the sub fence to be slid back and forth.
When the sub fence is set so it ends before the arbor, it sticks over the front of the saw giving extra support on the feed in. This seems like a good solution. 
The only gripe I have is that with the sub fence slid forward, the lever to adjust the main fence is blocked. This means the sub fence has to be slid back before the width of cut can be reset.


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## Jacob (30 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> The fence on my table saw runs the full length of the table. I happen to have a spare which fits, but belongs to the bandsaw (Axminster very kindly sent me a replacement because there was a tiny dink in the first one). Would it be insane for me to shorten the spare fence to use for ripping? It seems a brutal thing to do, but adding offcuts to use as a temporary fence always feels clumsy, and the fence is still there running the full length, but with a bit of wood _and_ a clamp in between it and the workpiece to add extra excitement.
> 
> If I did this, where exactly do I cut it to stop at the correct point? At the arbor? Somewhere between the teeth at maximum height and the arbor? Before the teeth?
> 
> Your thoughts would be welcome.


Ideally it wants to be conveniently adjustable so you can set it with the end lying anywhere between the front and back edges of the saw blade. If not adjustable maybe half way. Any less and it might not reach the front of the blade when it's set low.


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## MikeJhn (30 Apr 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> I think you _could_ make it safer - by having a short rip fence. The long through fence you have means that if you saw reaction timber it could get pinched between the blade and the fence and whilst your guides may minimise the tendency to kick back I very much doubt it will do the saw much good and you will still potentially have a greater risk of kickback. With a short position rip fence top guides are redundant.
> 
> Like the crown guard , though. Good idea


The JessEm stock guides have a bias towards the fence and are a one way bearing guide, the likelihood of kickback is almost eliminated .


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## Daniel2 (30 Apr 2021)

Riving Knife + Short Fence ≈ No Kickback


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## Jake (30 Apr 2021)

LJM said:


> So let’s say the loss of a hand is the worst case scenario for a machine. The cost of safety is weighed against the financial cost to the company if someone looses a hand. From memory of the last contract I signed, that was about £30k. That’s then your upper limit on additional safety for that machine.



What do you do after the first person loses a hand?


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## Jake (30 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> The JessEm stock guides have a bias towards the fence and are a one way bearing guide, the likelihood of kickback is almost eliminated .



Not a theory I'd take risks to test out under the force of a big kickback.


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## Jacob (30 Apr 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> The JessEm stock guides have a bias towards the fence and are a one way bearing guide, the likelihood of kickback is almost eliminated .


Close to eliminated by having riving knife and crown guard in situ, or feather board or push stick.
Not obvious but the crown guard also stops the workpiece being lifted to the top of the blade where it can be caught up and flung out at rim speed.
Some of the DIY bodged imitation SUVA guards aren't sturdy enough to do this and the guard itself may also get flung across the room


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## MikeJhn (1 May 2021)

Jake said:


> Not a theory I'd take risks to test out under the force of a big kickback.


Not a theory, fact, I will put my faith in the JessEm stock guides, riving knife and crown guard rather than a couple of push sticks, Oh and have for the last few years without experiencing any type of kickback.

Post 111 shows my set up.


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## JobandKnock (1 May 2021)

MikeJhn said:


> The JessEm stock guides have a bias towards the fence and are a one way bearing guide, the likelihood of kickback is almost eliminated .


I'd say it is merely _reduced_ rather than _"almost eliminated"_. Pushing the stock against the fence if the fence is a long, through fence (like yours) still doesn't cure the problems of reaction timber, such as badly kilned black walnut, which may bend uncontrollably away from the blade and towards the fence. With your guides the best outcome is that the material will bind between the blade, fence and roller - with the possibility of a kickback happening if that small contact patch of rubber doesn't do its' job. In the case of a short rip fence the errant material has the space to move wherever it needs to without constraints

In any case just because you haven't had a kickback doesn't mean that you won't have one. _"I've done that tens/hundreds/thousands of times without any problems"_, is a mantra every accident investigator and safety officer has heard or read on numerous occasions. Use the correct technique and you are even less likely to ever have an accident to start with


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## Cabinetman (1 May 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> I'd say it is merely _reduced_ rather than _"almost eliminated"_. Pushing the stock against the fence if the fence is a long, through fence (like yours) still doesn't cure the problems of reaction timber, such as badly kilned black walnut, which may bend uncontrollably away from the blade and towards the fence. With your guides the best outcome is that the material will bind between the blade, fence and roller - with the possibility of a kickback happening if that small contact patch of rubber doesn't do its' job. In the case of a short rip fence the errant material has the space to move wherever it needs to without constraints
> 
> In any case just because you haven't had a kickback doesn't mean that you won't have one. _"I've done that tens/hundreds/thousands of times without any problems"_, is a mantra every accident investigator and safety officer has heard or read on numerous occasions. Use the correct technique and you are even less likely to ever have an accident to start with


 That’s something I hadn’t considered, is it even possible to use those rubber wheel jobs with a short fence? 
You’re right, yes it is quite a small area of rubber when you think about it, all hunky-dory till something goes wrong.


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## JobandKnock (1 May 2021)

I would have thought so, but would it achieve that much? If the timber diverges as it passes through the saw teeth and is free bend away fromthe blade are you going to actually need to control any kick back? This is because kick back occurs at the back of the blade, where the "rising teeth" are.

I have another scenario where use of the ĺong fence seems equally counter productive - those instances where after being cut stresses in the material cause it to pinch in on the rear of the blade. One "cure" for this is to insert wedges into the kerf as you cut in order to ensure that the material doesn't pinch in - but you can't really do that with a long fence, can you?

Logically when you start processing a batch of timber you do need to be looking for flaws such as shakes and wind (longitudinal twisting). We should know that any piece of timber which is in wind is going to cause problems in a saw. In structural carpentry you'd normally set such timber aside in favour of straighte pieces, then (re)use it for short components such as dwangs (noggins) or blocking/solid strutting where the short component length means you can effevtively bypass the issue. But when dealing with cabinet woods this really isn't an option


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## Adam W. (1 May 2021)

Very informative, thank you.

I don't have a super duper table saw, but a Festool (sorry again for falling in the trap, so please don't flame me) circular saw on a Festool portable table. I hate the upside down spinning blade and have always used two push sticks because I'm $h!t scared of the thing.


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## Cabinetman (3 May 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Very informative, thank you.
> 
> I don't have a super duper table saw, but a Festool (sorry again for falling in the trap, so please don't flame me) circular saw on a Festool portable table. I hate the upside down spinning blade and have always used two push sticks because I'm $h!t scared of the thing.


 Sounds scary to me as well, very wise to keep stick length away from it I think.


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## JobandKnock (3 May 2021)

With the correct set up and the correct method a circular saw shouldn't scare you - but it should make you wary. Over confidence is a real enemy of safety


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## Ozi (3 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Riving Knife + Short Fence ≈ No Kickback


This puzzles me, do you know why fences are made long when it would be very easy to have a step in line with the blade centre?


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## Daniel2 (3 May 2021)

Ozi said:


> This puzzles me, do you know why fences are made long when it would be very easy to have a step in line with the blade centre?



I can think of two three reasons :

1/. For certain specific operations a continuous fence is neccesary.

2/. It's relatively easy to add in a short fence when needed.

3/. Perhaps production costs & simplicity of design.

BTW Ozi, the step shouldn't be in line with the arbor, but more towards the seat of the gullet.


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## Cabinetman (3 May 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I can think of two three reasons :
> 
> 1/. For certain specific operations a continuous fence is neccesary.
> 
> ...


 I think you’ve got me there Daniel, I can’t think what that specific operation would be that you need a continuous fence for, it’s probably me being dim. 
Production costs and simplicity of design, well on my saw, (The one at the start of this thread – a fairly large cast-iron Sedgwick) if there was a short fence it would save them supplying a full length one all the time, and the whole fence is held by a big cast block at the user the end of the saw, which makes me think you’re right there must be an operation that I can’t think of that the saw is designed to be able to do. Ian


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## Ttrees (3 May 2021)

Which tenon jig is the best...
I presume something that slides on the fence would be the most compact.
Is there a way to make use of the full depth of the blade
with a sled?


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## Inspector (3 May 2021)

The long fences are used for sheet goods. 

Pete


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## Inspector (3 May 2021)

Search "table saw tenon jig" and you will find lots of mitre slot and fence straddling types. Pretty much all have the ends of the work touching the table for full depth cutting of the blade.

Pete


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## JobandKnock (3 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> ...I can’t think what that specific operation would be that you need a continuous fence for, it’s probably me being dim


For sheet material with little or no internal stress, e.g MDF. The problem is that even man made sheet materials can and do have stresses sometimes (especially Chinese plywood)

Or if you are doing multiple production cuts with the fence locked at the same setting all the time and where the waste piece is very narrow/thin, and especially if using a power feeder on the out feed side, because a feeder needs the fence to be guided/supported by a fence. OK, specialised, but it is done.


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## Daniel2 (3 May 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> I think you’ve got me there Daniel, I can’t think what that specific operation would be that you need a continuous fence for, it’s probably me being dim.
> Production costs and simplicity of design, well on my saw, (The one at the start of this thread – a fairly large cast-iron Sedgwick) if there was a short fence it would save them supplying a full length one all the time, and the whole fence is held by a big cast block at the user the end of the saw, which makes me think you’re right there must be an operation that I can’t think of that the saw is designed to be able to do. Ian



I don't know if it's the right way to do things or not, but I tend to use it when
cutting rebates, dados or quick tenons, for example.


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## Dynamite (4 Jan 2022)

Interesting post here. It’s a safety feature on my table saw…

Mystery table saw part on fence


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## Dynamite (4 Jan 2022)

My push sticks are like the straight ones here so I’m ok. To be honest, I was going to make some of those that look like saw handles purely because I like the look of them but thanks to this thread, don’t think I will bother now. Like these…

Rob








However, what about these ones though?…






Kind Regards..........Rob


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## Jacob (4 Jan 2022)

Dynamite said:


> My push sticks are like the straight ones here so I’m ok. To be honest, I was going to make some of those that look like saw handles purely because I like the look of them but thanks to this thread, don’t think I will bother now. Like these…
> 
> Rob
> 
> ...


Go for it if they turn you on! 
But I can't particularly see them being any more useful than the standard pattern - not least because they are consumables and you may to have to replace them occasionally, so keeping it simple is good.


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## JobandKnock (4 Jan 2022)

Dynamite said:


> Interesting post here. It’s a safety feature on my table saw…
> 
> Mystery table saw part on fence


If your saw is a right tilter that allows you to make narrow bevel rips without the crown guard fouling on the fence. A lot of panel saws and more modern rip saws have extruded aluminium fences which work either in a high position, or by turning through 90° in a low position to do the same sort of thing


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## Dynamite (4 Jan 2022)

JobandKnock said:


> If your saw is a right tilter that allows you to make narrow bevel rips without the crown guard fouling on the fence. A lot of panel saws and more modern rip saws have extruded aluminium fences which work either in a high position, or by turning through 90° in a low position to do the same sort of thing


Hi, thanks for the info. It’s actually a left tilter… Rob


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## JobandKnock (5 Jan 2022)

In that case...


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