# Help aligning the blade in a cheap table saw {picture heavy}



## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Hi folks. Nice place you've got here.

Before I start, I know It's dirt cheap, massively inferior to anything more substantial and expensive and I'll really want a better one but the first point is key.
It was dirt cheap and that's the difference between me having a table saw in the foreseeable future and not, so let's leave that point aside and assume I'm using this saw and not going to be upgrading to a better one for a while yet.

Here we go. I bought a 1500W "Aldi Table Saw" this week (stock left over from when it went on sale last year). Once open the manual and ID plate say it is an Einhell PTS 15/250.

I've been measuring and messing with a few bits and pieces and have determined that with the table top as perfectly level as I can measure, the blade fully raised and perpendicular to the table top, the rear edge of the blade is closer to the left hand mitre track than the front edge is by about 1mm (0.039"). (I've used the same tooth as the reference point for both measurements)

Now, I believe most similar table saws have trunnions which are tweaked to align the blade properly, however this one isn't set up like that.
Here are a few pictures of the insides.

Inside from below the table with the blade at 90 degrees.





Note the 4 large allen head bolts at the top of the box section on the left side of the image.
Also note the black rod running along the centre of the table, this is the pivot for the blade angle.

Inside from below the table with the blade at 22.5 degrees.





Inside from below the table with the blade at 45 degrees.





Angle and blade height mechanisms at 45 degrees.





Angle and blade height mechanisms at 90 degrees.





View through table to blade height pivot.




The bolts you can see immediately below the table surface attach the whole shooting match to the pivot bar you can see running under the table surface in the first three pictures.
The odd looking bits above the height pivot are welded in captive nuts which receive the four large allen bolts you can see in the left hand side of the first picture.

This is about the best I can do on the photo front.

So, any suggestions on how to align this thing?
Again, looking from the front of the machine, the front blade is approximately 1mm (0.039") closer to the left hand mitre track than the rear of the blade.
Measurements taken using the same tooth for both with the blade at full height. Also repeated using other teeth to be sure.

I'm sure many people would question the sense in trying to get a saw like this set up nicely, but I think that once it's done it'll be more than good enough for my purposes (well, once I've stopped the slop in the mitre tracks and made a few extra toys to use with it that is, but I digress...)

I'm looking forwards to your responses.

Cheers folks.


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## bigjoe (15 May 2009)

A couple more posts and your pictures will be visible,its just the spam trap doing its stuff.

oh and welcome to the forum

Joe


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Ah...
They looked fine in the preview.
Will I need to re-post the OP when I hit whatever magic number I need to post pictures or will it all happen as if by magic?

Thanks for the welcome.


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## bigjoe (15 May 2009)

They're working fine now


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## matt (15 May 2009)

Every saw needs fettling so I think it's well worthwhile getting this one sorted. I reckon, if you slacken the nuts holding the whole assembly to the table, you'll get 0.5mm (which is what you need assuming the front of the blade pivots in the opposite direction) to get it aligned.


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## TheTiddles (15 May 2009)

Slacken all the bolts off, wiggle it till it's square, carefully do them all up and never move it again. Cheap tools can perform ok, but they don't like being disturbed

Aidan


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## Racers (15 May 2009)

Hi,

I think the bolts on the aluminium flange on the motor will give you the adjustment you need, but be carefull it won't need much movement, slacken them a bit and tap it check, tighten and check again.

Pete


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Thanks for the replies folks.

Pete
Do you mean the bolts either side of the "earth" sticker in the fourth shot (and the two corresponding bolts above them)?
Having never looked inside a table saw before I'm having a tough time visualising the effect moving various bits will have up on the business end of it all.
I can see those bolts (assuming you mean the ones by the earth sticker) moving the saw left to right on the table top but I struggle to see how it would rotate the blade to align it with the mitre gauges.
Or do you mean different bolts?


TheTiddles
It's nice to see other people agree that cheap tools can perform reasonably well. I don't mind it being a bit more labour intensive to make them acceptable so I suppose it's fine for now.


Matt
I don't expect many saws would be perfect out of the box, but for such a low price I kinda expected to need to tinker a bit. If they got it pin on before shipping it I'm sure it would cost a lot more.
For the record, the blade makes perfect 90 and 45 degree angles when the marker is adjusted to 90 (it's not meant to adjust, but I've tilted it for now and a needle file will soon make the tab hole into a slot for adjustment anyway)
If you're talking about the 4 allen head bolts in picture 1 which are received by the welded nuts in picture 6, I expect the front would rotate one way while the back went the other. Hopefully that will give me enough leeway to get the blade to run true.
Failing that - maybe taking it apart and making some slots would do the job. I'm not sure how keen I am to perform surgery on the thing though. Haha.


Thanks all.
Once I've had clarification from Pete (if I know what his thinking was it'll help me visualise it a lot more) I'll crack on and try to get it straight.

Once it's all nice and square I'll put it to some good use (I've got about 8 projects ranging from planters and small fruit-nets for my garden to a workbench and furniture for my bedroom coming up) and when I get a chance I'll probably stick up a review - I found precious little information about this online when I was thinking about buying it.


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## Chems (15 May 2009)

I've been using an £80 Titan 10" table saw from Screwfix for well over a year now. Its done itself proud. Get a new blade should be your first port of call after fettling. I recommend a Freud.


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## Oldman (15 May 2009)

I cant quite see how making adjustments in that plane using the 4 bolts on the alloy housing is going to alter the front to back run out of the blade.

The only way that would alter the required setting would be to shim one side between the alloy and steel parts.

I would be looking at finding the mountings for the table itself and slackening them off to see if you can align the table to the blade.


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Chems
I was going to buy the two pack of replacement blades in Aldi before thinking I may be better getting a higher quality blade instead. I've been quite surprised at the price of some though. Some of the blades seem to cost nearly as much as the whole saw! (Some cost even more too)
Is "can you suggest a good blade?" one of those questions that's a lot easier to ask than to answer?
I'll be doing probably as much cross cuts and mitre cuts as I'll be doing rips, so I know I'll want something with more teeth than this one, but other than that this is all VERY new to me.



Oldman
I did think a similar thing about the 4 bolts on the alloy housing. At first I thought shimming them would be the way to go before noticing the 4 allen head bolts just under the table (as seen in picture 1).

As for adjusting the table, I'm not sure that would do it. For one, I think the saw is attached to the table itself, so turning the table would turn the saw too.
The table surface is screwed down to a frame type arrangement that is in turn screwed to the blue body of the saw (you can see those screws just below the table surface in the first 3 pictures above). From what I can tell so far there's no room for adjustment on that front.

I have a feeling those 4 allen bolts might be the key. Slacken them off and rotate the plate they secure before tightening again.

Thoughts?


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## Digit (15 May 2009)

We would all like the very best BS, but we can't all afford it. I built a houseful of furniture on a similar machine. Slackening the four Allen bolts looks as though will permit the necessary movement, if not a Rat Tail file is the order of the day.
Two things to beware of though with these machines. Never overload the motor, that finishes more of them than anything else and don't expect much from the fence.
Overloading of the motor occurs quite frequently 'cos the fence does not remain parallel to the blade and 'pinches' the timber.
If it won't set parallel set it so that the back edge is further away from the blade than the front slightly and the riving knife should keep the timber straight.
Oh, and dump the blade!

Roy.


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Cheers Roy.

My reading so far has sold me on the idea of having the fence parallel or running away from the blade. I believe pinching by the fence is one cause of kickback (the thought of a 150mph projectile coming at me does not appeal)

Other than the wood pinching the blade is there anything else liable to overload the motor? Too hard a wood? Pushing too hard? Too thick? I dunno anything about this aspect at all so I'm only guessing.

When you say a rat tail file, I assume you mean to remove the 4 allen bolts altogether and turn the holes into slots. Is that correct?
Hopefully it won't come to that, I don't fancy complete surgery just yet, though I'll do it if I need to.

"Dump the blade"...
Not worth using at all? Or just upgrade when possible?
(The same issue that's lead to getting the cheapest saw as opposed to the best is an issue for blades too - lack of available funds is a bit of a hinderance.)


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## Digit (15 May 2009)

Well you've obviously cracked the 'pinching' part, the only other things is as you suggest, pushing to hard. Use your ears, if the motor slows too much ease up.
The blade, depends on what you intend using the saw for, generally for ripping those supplied will work, for cross cutting they are junk!
A good quality 80 tooth cross cut blade will cut across the grain like you had planed it.

Roy.


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## Oldman (15 May 2009)

Bigshot, yes those allen headed bolts look to be in the right plane to make the adjustment you need. Looks like you will need either a long series allen key or better still a socket allen key with a long extension bar and 1/2" ratchet to be sure to get it all nice and tight once its fettled.

Good luck.


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Roy
"Use your ears". I suppose that goes along with the "let the saw do the cutting" chestnut. I suppose there shouldn't be any need to push so hard it burns the motor out, it just means going a bit slower so it removes slightly less wood per tooth.

How would one of those 80 tooth cross cutting blades work for ripping?

Can you recommend a decent cross cutting blade that won't break the bank? It seems strange to think about spending as much on a blade as I have on the saw (not to mention a tad steep at the moment) but if I can get something capable of a good clean crosscut (and rip?) without paying a pile of money out I'd be happy to go for a new blade right away.



Oldman
It is a fairly long reach to the bolts. I can just about get a normal 8mm allen key into the head but turning it is a bit of a knuckle scraper. I'll have to see if I can get hold of a long one or a socket and ratchet. I've only got a 3/4" ratchet at the moment and that's a bit too chunky to get it in easily.

The horizontal bars below the bolts are somewhat in the way though. I may need to get a narrower extension bar too - otherwise I might need to think about dismantling things a bit to get to the bolts, not an appealing thought right now.
Truth be told it's not very well designed, but as they say "you pays your money, you makes your choice" and of course "you get what you pay for".


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## Digit (15 May 2009)

> How would one of those 80 tooth cross cutting blades work for ripping?



On hardwood very well indeed for finish but slower than a rip blade for ripping.
If you intend using the saw for both cross cutting and ripping, a cross cut blade does a better job of ripping than a rip blade does of cross cutting.
I use Freud blades but I do very little with soft woods so I can't really comment on such.

Roy.


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Thanks again.
A very helpful response.

I could live with a slower rip in exchange for a better crosscut.

How much slower are we talking? I wonder how much ripping I'd need to be doing before it became worth the time taken to swap a crosscut blade for a ripping blade and back again for the cross cuts.


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## Digit (15 May 2009)

To be honest BS my cross cut spends more time in my saw than the rip does. I would normally only set the rip up for timber that needs close to the maximum depth of cut that the saw can handle

Roy.


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Well maybe I'll get a crosscut blade for general use and just drop in the supplied ripping blade for ripping if I get desperate. I'll be ripping a few bits that don't matter too much once the blade is aligned so if it's truly appalling I'll replace that too.

I've been looking at the Freud website and am getting a tad lost.

Any chance you could suggest a blade?
All I know is 250mm diameter and 30mm bore.
Oh, and the manual says "never use circular saw blades made of high speed steel" - though I don't know if that's par for the course or limited to this saw.

Cheap=good, some of the blades on there cost more than the table did!


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## Oldman (15 May 2009)

Bigshot, get yourself a ball ended 8mm allen key and cut it at a length suitable to get past the bar and fit that into a 3/8" drive socket + long extension and ratchet.
That should allow for the angles you need to get past the bits that are slightly in your way.

Ball ended keys look like this 
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle- ... ll-end.jpg


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## Digit (15 May 2009)

I didn't know that any blades were made of HSS.
I use the LP40M blades, no, they are not cheap, but I have used the same two blades daily for two years and I haven't had to sharpen either yet.
I made up a cross cut sled with adjustable stop to ensure repeated accuracy and got rid of my shooting board, same for mitres.

Roy.


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Oldman
That link isn't working from here. Can you give another? I've done a google image search for hex key ball end and it's come up with a rather large range of different looking things.

Roy
I didn't know there were any HSS ones either. But then I didn't know there were such things as mitre tracks, trunnions, tennon jigs, dado stacks and so on until recently either so I didn't think there was anything odd about it. 
Is the one you use a 60tooth then?


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## Digit (15 May 2009)

> Is the one you use a 60tooth then?



Oooops! Yes!

Roy.


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## FogggyTown (15 May 2009)

Can't help with the adjustment to your saw but if you're looking for inexpensive blades . . .

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Summit-Saw-Bla ... viewQQtZkm

I have used them several times. Good service.


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## BigShot (15 May 2009)

Roy
Happens to the best of us. 


FogggyTown
Good service, but good blades?
Thanks for the link.


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## Oldman (16 May 2009)

Bigshot, just google for 8mm ball ended allen key images, they just have a hex ball on the end allowing you to operate the key while not being directly vertical to the socket head screw.

Here is another pic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Allen ... _end_1.jpg


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## eggflan (16 May 2009)

FogggyTown":39mvptwu said:


> Can't help with the adjustment to your saw but if you're looking for inexpensive blades . . .
> 
> http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Summit-Saw-Bla ... viewQQtZkm
> 
> I have used them several times. Good service.



Froggy town , how good are these blades , im looking for an 80t after my nightmare with a silverline one :shock:


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## 9fingers (16 May 2009)

eggflan":1gbsgfqp said:


> FogggyTown":1gbsgfqp said:
> 
> 
> > Can't help with the adjustment to your saw but if you're looking for inexpensive blades . . .
> ...



I have no experience with the Summit brand but I don't think you will be dissappointed with freud blades http://tinyurl.com/or98dv
make sure you get the right type - different for mitre saws compared to table saws.

Bob


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## Racers (16 May 2009)

Hi,

I had an other look and I am wrong, it must be the hex bolts to adjust the blade parrell to the miter slot. 

Pete


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## BigShot (16 May 2009)

OldMan
I saw ones like that when I tried a quick google image search after the last link you posted. Had a feeling that might be what you meant.

So you'd suggest getting one of those and then cutting off the bend so could use it in a normal driver/ratchet? Seems like it could work. I suppose it'd then just be a matter of bunging an 8mm socket on the end of it and away we go.


Bob
Thanks for that link. Even with shipping that ebay store is selling the Freud blades for a fair bit less than rrp even with shipping included. (£36.60 including postage for the LP40M 60T).
The 60T Summit blade is £17.94 including postage so a bit of a difference, but less than it looked like from the rrp on the Freud site.


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## FogggyTown (16 May 2009)

eggflan":v415g9is said:


> FogggyTown":v415g9is said:
> 
> 
> > Can't help with the adjustment to your saw but if you're looking for inexpensive blades . . .
> ...



I have to confess that I'm not knowledgable enough to tell bad from good - or even what standards to use. I can only say that I haven't had any teeth flying off and that the blades seem to be true. I've never sharpened any saw blade so I can't comment on that aspect. I do think the kerf is just a tennsy-weensy bit (maybe 0.5 mm?) wider than "high end" blades, if that matters. Sorry I can't be more helpful.


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## BigShot (16 May 2009)

No apologies needed. 
From what I can gather you'd have to be in large scale production to warrant replacing blades so often you'd be able to compare them easily.

You've been plenty helpful just giving the link to that ebay page.

It's good to know you've not had teeth flying off them too (though I imagine you'd probably have mentioned that to start with if you had). 0.5mm isn't a huge amount extra kerf, though narrower is better for me I think.

Cheers for the response.


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## newt (16 May 2009)

Bigshot, It can help with reliability if new brushed motors are run off load for say 15minutes.


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## Oldman (16 May 2009)

Yes, good point there Newt.

New brushes need a bit of a run to bed into the commutator. Chances are they are not making good contact when brand new and running with a load on can cause burn back of the brush face or com damage.

Gone are the days when we used to have to manually bed in new brushes before returning a motor to use.


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## BigShot (17 May 2009)

Thanks for the tip Newt, and thanks for the explanation OldMan.


News from the alignment front...
I got a set of long ball end allen keys today and with the help of a few bits and pieces to bodge together a rudimentary lever. I didn't even need to cut off the bend so I still have a complete set, which is a bonus.

I've managed to get the blade from being about 1mm (0.04ish inches) out to being about 0.1 to 0.2mm (something between 0.004" and 0.008") out, which is about as close as I can see myself getting it without a more accurate way to measure. It's visibly straighter and measures much closer than it did. All I need to do now is throw some wood at it (after a quick run-in as suggested by Newt) and I'll finally be putting my new toy to some good use.

It turns out the 4 allen bolts were the ones I needed to loosen to align the blade. It actually gave a surprising amount of movement.
In the end I used a couple of 5mm allen keys to hold the blade equidistant from the table while I tightened up and it worked (almost) perfectly.


Thanks a million for all the help in this thread. Now I just need to come up with a way to replace the bar on the mitre gauge to get rid of the slop, make a few new toys to use with it (jigs and the like) and stick a new blade on it and I'll start knocking together a review of it.

BS


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## lemonjeff (17 May 2009)

BS,
I had one these saws a while back, check that the blade runs parallel at different heights adjustments as well.

Jeff.


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## MickCheese (17 May 2009)

You may find this PodCast interesting

http://www.woodworkingonline.com/2009/0 ... intenance/

Mick


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## BigShot (18 May 2009)

Lemonjeff
I thought about checking that, I've got no idea why I didn't (probably just forgot in the excitement of managing to align a tool I knew next to nothing about just a few days ago).
If it isn't straight at each height is there a simple way to fix it other than getting a replacement?

Mick
Thanks for the podcast. I'll have a listen while I'm working in the morning. It certainly looks like a useful one.


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## lemonjeff (18 May 2009)

BS
See if it's OK first you may not have a problem. I never got as far as you have, mine had Phillips screws holding the trunion and they wouldn't budge, so I put up with it. The blade would be parallel about 1/2 height, toe in at 1/4 and toe out at full height. I used to allow for this with the fence. 
Having said that I got good accuracy out of it but repeatability was a pain.

Jeff.


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## BigShot (18 May 2009)

I just checked with a steel rule and a questionable square and at about 1/3 height the blade is roughly 0.5mm out of square.
(As I said before it's about 0.1mm to 0.2mm away from square at full height so it's not a huge deviation, but it's there).


For you imperial types...
...0.5mm out of square is pretty close to 0.02".


I'll check again in a while with a square I'm a bit more sure about, but assuming I'm right, are there any suggestions how to get it aligned at all blade heights?


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## Digit (18 May 2009)

You'll probably need to shim under the trunnion that you adjusted sideways.

Roy.


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## BigShot (18 May 2009)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean there, Roy.
(I know what a shim is, just not how I'd go about using it or how it would affect toe in like that).

Would shimming it there be better than adjusting the large silver-coloured plate that can be seen with the earth sticker on it in the pictures I put in the first post?

Here I'm falling again to not fully understanding how an adjustment in one place will play out at the different parts of the saw.


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## Digit (18 May 2009)

Looking at your pics again BS, yes as far as I can see that should do it.
For what it's worth my experience of cheaper tools is that they are not necessarily badly made at all, but frequently are badly fitted together, and this seems to the case here.
At least it all seems curable, so have fun!

Roy.


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## BigShot (18 May 2009)

Well, at least I enjoy tinkering with the insides of things I've got no business working on. Haha.

I imagine if these things were assembled as well as they could be the price would be considerably higher so I don't begrudge a bit of hacking away to get it all straight and accurate.

Now, if the cutting edge of the blade is closer to the mount than the rear edge, where would you shim? Or is the idea to shim the whole thing? (Not sure how that'd change anything though)
I can always just try a few options and see what works, but loosening and tightening the allen bolts is actually quite a hassle (awkward and prone to knucle-skinning) any idea I can get up front would probably make things a bit easier.


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## Digit (18 May 2009)

You misunderstood me BS, turn the plate with the Earth tag, if I've the pics correctly that should do it.

My SIP T/S cost several times what you have paid and it did what it said on the box, but that was a long way short of what I thought it should be capable of for the money.
The blade was rubbish, the riving knife had a different interpretation as to what was vertical compared with the blade and was not along the same line as the blade, the dust extraction from the crown guard was useless, the metal plate around the blade had a wide slot in it to allow for tilt and no zero clearance plate, cleaning underneath was a nightmare of panel removal, the fence was full length, which is not good and the blade was not in alignment with the 'T' slot.
I changed the blade, adjusted the blade and knife alignments, replaced the crown dust extraction system with a dedicated vacuum cleaner, made two new plates including a zero clearance for the insert, removed the side panels permanently to make cleaning easier and made up a false fence.
All this took hours of work which is why the manufacturers don't always do it, time is money! The machine now does all that I want of it.

Roy.


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