# Customs declarations and brexit



## Jacob (1 Apr 2021)

Brexit dividend strikes again!
Sold a low cost item on Ebay going to the Channel islands. Have to fill in a ludicrous customs declaration - not worth the time, nor risk of getting it wrong, so cancelled! 
If I did it again I'd ask for p&p plus £5 for admin.


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## willsie01 (1 Apr 2021)

What? Channel Islands aren't in the EU.


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## Jacob (1 Apr 2021)

willsie01 said:


> What? Channel Islands aren't in the EU.


Customs form required for whatever the reason, since Jan. I assume Brexit.


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## Myfordman (1 Apr 2021)

This is all I filled in when sending to Southafrica in January.
Hardly difficult


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## Cabinetman (1 Apr 2021)

Yes very similar to the one I use when I send things to the US.


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## Noel (1 Apr 2021)

A bloke I know imported some jam from England to N Ireland...........a few forms had to be filled in:







Got off lightly compared to some Scottish fishermen, 71 forms per load to EU, assuming they reached it in time.........


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## TRITON (1 Apr 2021)

Good heads up. Im going to go over my exclusions in my ebay and add the channel isles, and just stick to mainland UK.


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## Jacob (1 Apr 2021)

Myfordman said:


> This is all I filled in when sending to Southafrica in January.
> Hardly difficult
> View attachment 107251


Mine was a different form. Wanted passport numbers for me and the recipient and all sorts of other details. Maybe the wrong form? Too late now I've cancelled - there was only a fiver in it for me anyway.
Was brexit new regs BTW.


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## Myfordman (1 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Mine was a different form. Wanted passport numbers for me and the recipient and all sorts of other details. Maybe the wrong form? Too late now I've cancelled - there was only a fiver in it for me anyway.
> Was brexit new regs BTW.


I sent my parcel post Brexit this January and found the form online in advance, filled it in a stuck it on the parcel. Post office guy started to say I needed to fill in a form and then saw the one I'd used and said it was ok. Seemed impressed that I'd bothered to look into it. There were signs up in the PO about now needing forms to be used for post to EU which of course your parcel was mine was going to South Africa so might have been different but I don't see why its just to declare whats in there and value for duty to be paid in the receiving country.
If you do it again ever then google for CN22 and you can print one like I did.


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## JohnPW (1 Apr 2021)

The Channel Islands have never been in the EU, they're not even in the UK!

Last year I sent a package to the US. The only difference compared with posting to the UK is the CN22 form. I even messed up by not filling in the "total" but it still got there.

If an Ebay seller states they post to The Channel Islands and then cancels just because they changed their mind about posting there, then the the seller deserves a negative feedback.


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## Rorschach (1 Apr 2021)

Every item I have ever posted to the Channel Islands has required a customs declaration and every item I have ever bought from there has come with one attached as well.

Sorry to tinkle on your picnic.


EDIT: It's the CN22 form which is all you need for goods up to £270 going anywhere in the world. I have a roll of them on my desk now.


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## samhay (1 Apr 2021)

There are 2 customs forms, a CN22 (Myfordman posted this above) and a CN23 for higher value items. Neither require a passport number. 
You do sometimes need proof of identity for the recipient for some goods - e.g. knives. Jacob, care to tell us what you were shipping?


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## Jacob (1 Apr 2021)

samhay said:


> There are 2 customs forms, a CN22 (Myfordman posted this above) and a CN23 for higher value items. Neither require a passport number.
> You do sometimes need proof of identity for the recipient for some goods - e.g. knives. Jacob, care to tell us what you were shipping?


It was an old oilstone in a wooden box. Value £20. Could be an accessory to murder of course!
It was Hermes sent me the online form. Asked for identity number (I don't think I've got one) or passport number (which could take me some time to find), and ditto for the recipient.


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## Pallet Fancier (1 Apr 2021)

Myfordman said:


> This is all I filled in when sending to Southafrica in January.
> Hardly difficult
> View attachment 107251


Yes, but the transition period, along with all existing customs arrangements which the UK had with other regions (as part of its EU membership - package deal) ended at the end of January. Looks like you snook in under the wire.


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## Rorschach (1 Apr 2021)

Pallet Fancier said:


> Yes, but the transition period, along with all existing customs arrangements which the UK had with other regions (as part of its EU membership - package deal) ended at the end of January. Looks like you snook in under the wire.



Eh? He was sending to South Africa, nothing has changed there.


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## doctor Bob (1 Apr 2021)

it's all brexit, brrrrexit madness.
"itchy bumhole", errh that will be ya brexit...............


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## powertools (1 Apr 2021)

Sorry to spoil your anti Brexit thread but the Channel Islands are not in the EU if you want to avoid this sort of problem you need to exclude all international sales from your ebay sales.


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## Jacob (1 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> Sorry to spoil your anti Brexit thread but the Channel Islands are not in the EU if you want to avoid this sort of problem you need to exclude all international sales from your ebay sales.


Still have to fill up a customs declaration - as a result of Brexit apparently.


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## powertools (1 Apr 2021)

OK.


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## powertools (1 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Still have to fill up a customs declaration - as a result of Brexit apparently.




OK.


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## Pallet Fancier (1 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Eh? He was sending to South Africa, nothing has changed there.



According to this, you're right, it hasn't.








UK agreed trade continuity with 6 African nations


The UK initials Economic Partnership Agreement with the Southern African Customs Union and Mozambique.




www.gov.uk




But the fact that the UK had to agree trade "continuity" with these countries, because of Brexit, kind of suggests that the UK's existing trade agreement with Southern Africa before Brexit was under the umbrella of EU membership. There have been several such continuity agreements rushed through, it seems. Can't imagine the terms of these quickie agreements where favourable to the UK, given that the other side knew full well that the UK was in a desperate hurry to get it done! Probably asked for things they didn't originally have, at our expense. So, yes, if you're trading on ebay and sending something now, probably nothing has changed.


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## doctor Bob (1 Apr 2021)

Did the ebay buyer ever existed, or is this just a back door remainer thread?
Do you want some help filling in the downloadable form,

name
address
tick
brief description
sign
Done.

as mentioned its just a CN22, max time is like writing an envelope.
However may as well make a mountain out of a molehill.
I've said in the past, the very best place to discuss these polictical viewpoints is a woodworking forum, bit of luck it could run for another 4 years with no conclusion. A few new analogies, people being called german soldiers. Can't wait.

P.S. What's the next back door thread, I'll look out for it. 
How about "pencil sharpening", just recently I have had to fill out 2 additional forms and my pencil is blunt, are there any cheap pencil sharpeners out there which haven't dramatically risen in price since Brrrrexit madness.


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## Jake (1 Apr 2021)

Pallet Fancier said:


> But the fact that the UK had to agree trade "continuity" with these countries, because of Brexit, kind of suggests that the UK's existing trade agreement with Southern Africa before Brexit was under the umbrella of EU membership. There have been several such continuity agreements rushed through, it seems. Can't imagine the terms of these quickie agreements where favourable to the UK



The continuity ones are just rolling over the existing EU deals (but in UK name as the treaty party rather than via the EU)


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## doctor Bob (1 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> not worth the time, nor risk of getting it wrong, so cancelled!









This really has now sparked my curiousity, as to what was so risky,
do you know:
your own name and address
what's in the parcel
the date.

These sorts of forms can really put the willies up you, my god, why oh why do they have to make them so complicated, I mean look at the length of it, no wonder ya shatt yourself and cancelled it.


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## doctor Bob (1 Apr 2021)

I'd like to help.
In the future feel free to send me your details, name, address, tell me what your sending and I'll fill out the form for you.


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## Rorschach (1 Apr 2021)

I am wondering if this was actually an April Fools?


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## doctor Bob (1 Apr 2021)

I think it's serious, just look at the size of that form, wouldn't you find it daunting, risky and be racked with fear if you were to fill it out wrong.
No Jacob is no fool.

The application forms to be a Labour councillor candidate must be very short...................
"name" .............. that will do, your in..........


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## Jacob (1 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> This really has now sparked my curiousity, as to what was so risky,
> do you know:
> your own name and address
> what's in the parcel
> ...


I got a different (on line) form asking for identity number (which I don't have) and passport number which would have meant a search, ditto for the recipients passport number etc. It wouldn't accept my phone number either and all in all after half an hour effin about I thought soddit and cancelled. Didn't shatt myself honest! Probably was wrong form but that's what Hermes asked for.
Anyway it's got Bobby excited! Doesn't take much these days!


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## doctor Bob (1 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I got a different (on line) form asking for identity number (which I don't have) and passport number which would have meant a search, ditto for the recipients passport number etc. It wouldn't accept my phone number either and all in all after half an hour effin about I thought soddit and cancelled. Didn't shatt myself honest! Probably was wrong form but that's what Hermes asked for.



Oh dear, very simple it's all here Help sending mail to the Isle of Man and Channel Islands
Never mind it was a great opportunity to air your political views, get a brexit thread going etc, not too many people know your a raving tory who loves Boris.


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## Lons (1 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Oh dear, very simple it's all here Help sending mail to the Isle of Man and Channel Islands
> Never mind it was a great opportunity to air your political views, get a brexit thread going etc, not too many people know your a raving tory who loves Boris.


You have to make a few allowances Bob, he's been relatively quiet since allowed back in so maybe a bit of pent up frustration is bubbling up again


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## AdrianUK (2 Apr 2021)

The easiest solution for me if I send out side of the UK is to use my RM Click & Drop account which will include the relevant customs details to be entered for the relevant destination at the same time as entering the parcels weight and size. When you print your shipping label, the relevant cn22 or cn23 is also printed with all the details filled in. It also allows for a Trade Tariff Code to be included, which should assist items to move through customs easier. I note of trade tariff codes I use regularly so as not to have to keep searching for them on Gov.uk.


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## Jacob (2 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> You have to make a few allowances Bob, he's been relatively quiet since allowed back in so maybe a bit of pent up frustration is bubbling up again


It was the pent up frustration of putting hours of work into selling something for a measly profit of about three quid. Having to dig out my passport just seemed a step too far.
If it had been a tenner I might have buckled down more cheerfully!


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## Phill05 (2 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> If it had been a tenner I might have buckled down more cheerfully!



Na lad duna go soft on us.


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## doctor Bob (2 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It was the pent up frustration of putting hours of work into selling something for a measly profit of about three quid.



If you took that attitude with everything in life you wouldn't get very far. For example, lets say hypothetically you stood as a political candidate in a local council election. You put hours and hours of work in and yet get a measly profit (a few votes). Would you give up, say it's all crrap, too much effort .......... not at all ............. you have come back strong, preaching to the masses of a woodworking forum, we're listening and citizen Jacob when the uprising happens the masses will come (well 6 of us) all armed with to the teeth with dull lilerature, donkey jackets, we will rally round you. We will make a total balls up of answering difficult questions, we will sit on the fence and we will become hairy and wear jesus creepers.
Power to the people


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## Jacob (2 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> If you took that attitude with everything in life you wouldn't get very far. For example, lets say hypothetically you stood as a political candidate in a local council election. You put hours and hours of work in and yet get a measly profit (a few votes). Would you give up, say it's all crrap, too much effort .......... not at all ............. you have come back strong, preaching to the masses of a woodworking forum, we're listening and citizen Jacob when the uprising happens the masses will come (well 6 of us) all armed with to the teeth with dull lilerature, donkey jackets, we will rally round you. We will make a total balls up of answering difficult questions, we will sit on the fence and we will become hairy and wear jesus creepers.
> Power to the people


I'm not going to change the world by selling sharpening stones for three quid though am I?
Though come to think we'll have to sharpen our pitchforks when the revolution comes.
I wonder if Veritas do a pitch fork sharpening jig? With lots of brass knobs on?


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## D_W (2 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Brexit dividend strikes again!
> Sold a low cost item on Ebay going to the Channel islands. Have to fill in a ludicrous customs declaration - not worth the time, nor risk of getting it wrong, so cancelled!
> If I did it again I'd ask for p&p plus £5 for admin.



I filled out a cn22 two days ago, or three? It took about three minutes longer than a normal label plus the requirement here in the states that you drop it off at the post office the day you sign the bottom. It wasn't particularly difficult. I don't have any ancillary tax numbers or anything to fill out other than my name and contents plus value. It's never stopped anything from being delivered.


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## D_W (2 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'm not going to change the world.



Let's just make this accurate by removing extraneous words.


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## Rorschach (2 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It was the pent up frustration of putting hours of work into selling something for a measly profit of about three quid. Having to dig out my passport just seemed a step too far.
> If it had been a tenner I might have buckled down more cheerfully!



£3, Surprised you got out of bed for that.


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## doctor Bob (2 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'm not going to change the world by selling sharpening stones for three quid though am I?



I thought it was £20. Stick to the story or you'll blow ya cover for the thread.


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## willsie01 (2 Apr 2021)

As mentioned, the C.I.'s aren't in the U.K. but we do have a constitutional relationship with them: based on "accepted practice" I believe.  The fact that customs forms have to be completed between us seems plain daft to me. Was it the case pre-brexit? But if not it smacks of the current Eton old boys administration, even if that isn't the reason.


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## doctor Bob (2 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Though come to think we'll have to sharpen our pitchforks when the revolution comes.



When you have the revolution can you do it on any day but a Tuesday, they are always frightfully busy for me and it would put a right spanner in the works to get stuck in traffic due a revolution.


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## toolsntat (2 Apr 2021)

Is the stone any good ?
Is it still for sale ?
Got any pictures ?


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## doctor Bob (2 Apr 2021)

toolsntat said:


> Is the stone any good ?
> Is it still for sale ?
> Got any pictures ?



Steady now, Posting to Leicestershire, would he have to write an address?


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## NormanB (2 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Brexit dividend strikes again!
> Sold a low cost item on Ebay going to the Channel islands. Have to fill in a ludicrous customs declaration - not worth the time, nor risk of getting it wrong, so cancelled!
> If I did it again I'd ask for p&p plus £5 for admin.


Not Brexit - de rigeur for yonks. If your charge out rate for filling out a very simple customs form is £5 suggest you change your business and just fill in forms for a living.


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## alexalexander (2 Apr 2021)

There are CN22 forms and other CN22 forms..... We were sending a present to our grandchildren from France to the UK. Found 2 versions of CN22 online - one on the gouv.fr web site, the other on la poste. Basically the same though. Filled one in and stuck it to the parcel and off to the post office who said that form is not valid - you have to have one with a bar code and it's only available on-line (no joy there as la poste's web site had been broken for 2 days already) or at a terminal at the main post office. That needed an hours trip to the nearest town........


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## Rorschach (2 Apr 2021)

alexalexander said:


> There are CN22 forms and other CN22 forms..... We were sending a present to our grandchildren from France to the UK. Found 2 versions of CN22 online - one on the gouv.fr web site, the other on la poste. Basically the same though. Filled one in and stuck it to the parcel and off to the post office who said that form is not valid - you have to have one with a bar code and it's only available on-line (no joy there as la poste's web site had been broken for 2 days already) or at a terminal at the main post office. That needed an hours trip to the nearest town........



Yes there is one with a barcode now, hit and miss if a PO requires it though. I still use the old ones as I never send anything without tracking so the barcode is not needed in that case.


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## Amateur (2 Apr 2021)

A Belgium friend asked me to contact a UK company where he buys his vitamin drops from.
They had stopped delivering to the EU because of the paperwork and irate customers complaining about packages being held at EU customs.
Indeed he was correct.
This must be impacting lots of small companies but I wonder why nothing is being done to ease the frustration?


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## julianf (2 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> This must be impacting lots of small companies but I wonder why nothing is being done to ease the frustration?



No, its all going perfectly.






Interparcel | Parcel Tracking | GB1196750530







uk.interparcel.com





No problems at all, and, if there are any at all, they are well worth the extra £340m a week that the NHS is now getting.


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## leisurefix (2 Apr 2021)

Unfortunately covid has meant a massive increase in NHS expenditure, not sure if it amounts to the mythical £340m we were promised. Terribly, I could see Boris trying to spin this as a promise met.


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Well we are spending millions a day pointlessly testing school kids so that might come to 340 million for the NHS?


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## RobinBHM (3 Apr 2021)

Top marks to Jacob for managing to weave a sharpening thread into a Brexit thread.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Apr 2021)

Bet he couldn't do the reverse.


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## clogs (3 Apr 2021)

Amatuer
to answer ur question.....
uness it affects the pockets of the morons in charge (all parties) nothing will get done...
still realing from the £20,000 floating duck shed...
they are all greedy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## julianf (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Well we are spending millions a day pointlessly testing school kids so that might come to 340 million for the NHS?



350m X 52 is 18 billion or so.

The promised extra finding by the chancellor was 3 billion.

So, no, the numbers clearly and demonstrably were a lie.


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## julianf (3 Apr 2021)

leisurefix said:


> Unfortunately covid has meant a massive increase in NHS expenditure, not sure if it amounts to the mythical £340m we were promised. Terribly, I could see Boris trying to spin this as a promise met.



As above, it's way way off the funding that the "let us spend it on the NHS" implied.


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## Cheshirechappie (3 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Bet he couldn't do the reverse.


Don't .... give .... him .... ideas!


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

julianf said:


> 350m X 52 is 18 billion or so.
> 
> The promised extra finding by the chancellor was 3 billion.
> 
> So, no, the numbers clearly and demonstrably were a lie.



20 billion on track and trace to help the NHS though, there's your 350 a week.


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> 20 billion on track and trace to help the NHS though, there's your 350 a week.











Covid-19: Government is criticised for “scandalous” £10bn spent on test and trace programme


The UK government has spent £10bn (€11.2bn; $12.7bn) on its much derided covid-19 test and trace programme and £15bn on personal protective equipment for frontline healthcare staff, the Treasury disclosed this week. It revealed the figures in a document summarising the substantial financial...




www.bmj.com


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## PhilipL (3 Apr 2021)

TRITON said:


> Good heads up. Im going to go over my exclusions in my ebay and add the channel isles, and just stick to mainland UK.



Mainland UK is GB. You are not one of those miserable eBay sellers who haven't been prepared to send to NI for years - well before Brexit - are you?


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Covid-19: Government is criticised for “scandalous” £10bn spent on test and trace programme
> 
> 
> The UK government has spent £10bn (€11.2bn; $12.7bn) on its much derided covid-19 test and trace programme and £15bn on personal protective equipment for frontline healthcare staff, the Treasury disclosed this week. It revealed the figures in a document summarising the substantial financial...
> ...


Close enough


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## fixit45 (3 Apr 2021)

This is just another remoaners thread. Why is it that people do not apply the same vigour in getting on with what is required, instead of putting more energy into about why it will not work! Perhaps some of you are too young to remember that we used to trade with all countries before the EU which is top heavy with rules and regulations. We were world leaders in most industry and trade until successive generations became too lazy to work but spent more time protesting about the conditions they had brought about!!!!


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

fixit45 said:


> .... before the EU which is top heavy with rules and regulations. .....


Funny how brexiters get this completely upside down. Strange.
The simple fact of the EU is that it developed to make trade easier by agreeing common rules and regulations. There's a clue in the title "Common Market".
The glaringly obvious consequence of brexit was to make trade MORE difficult, not less. This was pointed out over and over again from the start and now we see the obvious consequences as predicted.
A real mystery that Brexiters could not see this very simple fact!
An even bigger mystery is how on earth brexit can give the UK any advantage at all, anywhere, over anything.
Just saying!
My beef with sending to Jersey I now see was because I was sent the wrong form and it asked for my passport number and other stuff. Their mistake. It did say that this was the new post Brexit form however.


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Did you get that replacement belt Jacob? You must be trying to get the record player fixed surely?


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Did you get that replacement belt Jacob? You must be trying to get the record player fixed surely?


Speak for yourself!
Have you yourself noticed any brexit benefit anywhere?


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## Cheshirechappie (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Have you yourself noticed any brexit benefit anywhere?


Coronavirus vaccine development and roll-out.


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Coronavirus vaccine development and roll-out.


Nothing to do with Brexit or the EU. Could have done just the same if we were still in.


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Nothing to do with Brexit or the EU. Could have done just the same if we were still in.



Did any country within the EU go it alone?


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## PUtcvNqa (3 Apr 2021)

quite right - the other 27 just chose not to bother really


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

PUtcvNqa said:


> quite right - the other 27 just chose not to bother really



How's that working out for them?


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> How's that working out for them?


Not well but catching up. UK still ahead with world's worst mortality rates however. Can't blame Brexit for that either.


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## fixit45 (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Funny how brexiters get this completely upside down. Strange.
> The simple fact of the EU is that it developed to make trade easier by agreeing common rules and regulations. There's a clue in the title "Common Market".
> The glaringly obvious consequence of brexit was to make trade MORE difficult, not less. This was pointed out over and over again from the start and now we see the obvious consequences as predicted.
> A real mystery that Brexiters could not see this very simple fact!
> ...


If as you say trade is what the Common Market is all about. Pray tell me what the EU is all about and why does it impose laws on us without our consent. With regard to the other 27 countries they will start leaving within the next 2 or 3 years, as my mother used to say mark my words.


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Not well but catching up. UK still ahead with world's worst mortality rates however. Can't blame Brexit for that either.



Actually we are 11th on deaths per million several EU countries ahead of us and several in the same ball park (Italy for example), that assume every country has been honest and counts deaths the same way (they don't, we are very pessimistic with our counting).

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a Brexit dig.


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

fixit45 said:


> If as you say trade is what the Common Market is all about. Pray tell me what the EU is all about and why does it impose laws on us without our consent.


 "Common Market" was the earlier manifestation of the EU.
Pray tell me which EU laws we are now free from and how it is benefitting us?


> With regard to the other 27 countries they will start leaving within the next 2 or 3 years,....


I think they will pay close attention to the UK's progress (regress so far) and, like so many of us, will be wondering if there is any point in leaving.


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Actually we are 11th on deaths per million several EU countries ahead of us and several in the same ball park (Italy for example), that assume every country has been honest and counts deaths the same way (they don't, we are very pessimistic with our counting).
> 
> But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a Brexit dig.


We are 11th of the world's worst but with only 10 minor and not comparable small states doing worse. Italy, USA both doing better.
Was there anything else besides the covid vacc (doubtful anyway) which you could point to as a Brexit dividend? Or are you expecting anything in particular and if so when?


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> We are 11th of the world's worst but with only 10 minor and not comparable small states doing worse. Italy, USA both doing better.
> Was there anything else besides the covid vacc (doubtful anyway) which you could point to as a Brexit dividend? Or are you expecting anything in particular and if so when?



We've been over this before. End of free movement was the main one for me.


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> We've been over this before. End of free movement was the main one for me.


In what way have you seen the benefit of this, or expect to see it?


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> In what way have you seen the benefit of this, or expect to see it?



Again, we have been over this, go back and look at your other thread, I am not going to repeat myself ad nauseum, that's your job


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## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Again, we have been over this, go back and look at your other thread, I am not going to repeat myself ad nauseum, that's your job


No but it's been 5 years in the making - you'd expect to see something being made of it by now - all the freedom - those amazing opportunities for young entrepreneurs - remember IBS waxing lyrical last year?
We are looking for signs of the new dawn! 
I'm sure you will let us know if you see anything yourself, but clearly you can't at the moment.
Covid will get the blame though.


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## Noel (3 Apr 2021)

fixit45 said:


> If as you say trade is what the Common Market is all about. Pray tell me what the EU is all about and why does it impose laws on us without our consent. With regard to the other 27 countries they will start leaving within the next 2 or 3 years, as my mother used to say mark my words.




Yeah right, and Ireland will rejoin UK......


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> Yeah right, and Ireland will rejoin UK......



Stranger things have happened. I wouldn't be so dismissive.


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## doctor Bob (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> My beef with sending to Jersey I now see was because I was sent the wrong form and it asked for my passport number and other stuff. Their mistake. It did say that this was the new post Brexit form however.



I ordered a set of HT leads and got delivered a set of spark plugs, I returned them and got sent what I requested.
I did not immediately come on here and blame it on brexit....................

Come on Jacob, I know you think we are stupid but your transparent. If your underpants were too tight it would be blamed on brexit.
Lack of votes in a council election, Brexit ........................... actually that parts true as Jezza made a right balls up of dealing with it.


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## Noel (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Stranger things have happened. I wouldn't be so dismissive.



Why not (be so dismissive)?


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## Rorschach (3 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> Why not (be so dismissive)?



Well you don't think it possible, but lets just see how things go. I would never rule anything out, if you had asked me 18 months ago did I think some of things we have seen in the last year were possible I would have laughed in your face. I have been humbled.


----------



## julianf (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> 20 billion on track and trace to help the NHS though, there's your 350 a week.



20 billion on private contracts that were nothing to do with the NHS, and did not help the NHS.


My point was that the 18 billion that we were asked to allow government to spend on the NHS ("let's spend it on our NHS instead") has, again, clearly and demonstrably not been spent on the NHS.

If you want to suggest that a shameful funnelling of public money into private hands to the tune of £20b somehow legitimises the failure of government to follow through on their request to spend it on the NHS then go ahead, but i don't think its a pursuit you will gain much traction with.


----------



## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

So - nobody can think of anything really of value happening as a result of brexit?
Maybe next year? 
Early days, it's only 5 years of intensive negotiations since the referendum. Rome wasn't built in a day!


----------



## silentsam (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> So - nobody can think of anything really of value happening as a result of brexit?
> Maybe next year?
> Early days, it's only 5 years of intensive negotiations since the referendum. Rome wasn't built in a day!


I can name an advantage to Brexit. You've found a new hobby: complaining about Brexit constantly. What else would you do with your free time?


----------



## Jacob (3 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> I can name an advantage to Brexit. You've found a new hobby: complaining about Brexit constantly. What else would you do with your free time?


I was asking for a friend!  
So - you can't think of anything either?


----------



## RobinBHM (3 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> I can name an advantage to Brexit. You've found a new hobby: complaining about Brexit constantly. What else would you do with your free time?


To be fair, brexers have a hobby: moaning about the EU....which they do as much or more.

One would've thought they might want to move on


----------



## silentsam (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I was asking for a friend!
> So - you can't think of anything either?


I certainly could but sometimes making a joke is better than starting a debate


----------



## RobinBHM (3 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> So - nobody can think of anything really of value happening as a result of brexit?
> Maybe next year?
> Early days, it's only 5 years of intensive negotiations since the referendum. Rome wasn't built in a day!



It may eventually kill off British exceptionalism
Maybe if we have long term decline, it will lead to social change and the UK will get rid of FPTP.


In the short term it's hard to ignore the fact Brexit has enabled the UK vaccination programme....that is something of value


----------



## Noel (3 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Well you don't think it possible, but lets just see how things go. I would never rule anything out, if you had asked me 18 months ago did I think some of things we have seen in the last year were possible I would have laughed in your face. I have been humbled.



No it won't happen, 800 years of history is against you. If anything the UK will get smaller.

Meanwhile N Ireland into it's 7th night of rioting. NI Protocol/Brexit/Irish Sea border and a couple of local issues. 








And not a single word from London or Johnson. If this was happening in GB........


----------



## PUtcvNqa (3 Apr 2021)

fairly normal isn't it -
just depends which particular terrorists are being pandered to that determines how much news it makes.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> .....
> 
> 
> In the short term it's hard to ignore the fact Brexit has enabled the UK vaccination programme....that is something of value


No thanks to Brexit. The UK vac prog was initiated whilst still in. We would have done the same if we had stayed in.
So - basically drawn a blank?


----------



## Rorschach (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> No thanks to Brexit. The UK vac prog was initiated whilst still in. We would have done the same if we had stayed in.
> So - basically drawn a blank?



Did any EU country follow their own path? They could have, but did they?


----------



## DBT85 (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> No thanks to Brexit. The UK vac prog was initiated whilst still in. We would have done the same if we had stayed in.
> So - basically drawn a blank?


I heard our fish are now britisher and feel better about it? I can only assume the author of such words was able to ask the creatures owing to being a sea slug himself.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Did any EU country follow their own path? They could have, but did they?


They all did one way or another and except for Belgium they are all have lower death/million rates, in spite of their vacc regime being confused.








Covid: How is Europe lifting lockdown restrictions?


Europe is gradually easing lockdown measures ahead of the tourist season.



www.bbc.co.uk




Flogging a dead horse here.
The fact is nobody in the UK has experienced any advantage in Brexit at all, by all accounts. This is looking on the bright side - but drawing a blank!
Now we could look at the downside and ask the other question - has anybody experienced any negatives?


----------



## Rorschach (4 Apr 2021)

Ahh Jacob, get asked one question, answer another instead. You really should be a politician.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Ahh Jacob, get asked one question, answer another instead. You really should be a politician.


Answered several times! They did follow their own paths see above but yes there was a failing over the vacc prog. But it wasn't brexit which sent us off on our own path we were still in the EU and would have done the same had we stayed in.
More about you not liking the answer and having nothing else to flag up as a brexit dividend! 
And nobody else has either!
What about the negatives? What do you think about the remoaning fishermen?


----------



## Rorschach (4 Apr 2021)

So just to be clear, we could have gone our own way on vaccines if we were in the EU, but no other country chose to do that? But you still think we could have/would have? Even though no-one else did, even though they could, but they didn't.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> So just to be clear, we could have gone our own way on vaccines if we were in the EU, but no other country chose to do that? But you still think we could have/would have? Even though no-one else did, even though they could, but they didn't.


Yes we went our own way whilst we were still in the EU. There's an explainer here Covid: What’s the problem with the EU vaccine rollout?
_"However, the UK's approval of the jab would have been permitted anyway under EU law - a point made by the head of the UK medicines regulator.
The UK could have joined the EU vaccine scheme last year while it was still in a transition phase with the EU, but it chose not to."_
Other EU states could have opted out too.
Yes it seems it was a smart move but Brexit had nothing to do with it.

So - what do you think about the remoaning fisherman, majority of whom voted to shoot themselves in the foot?


----------



## Lons (4 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Ahh Jacob, get asked one question, answer another instead. You really should be a politician.


He tried and got seriously dumped, definitely a wannabe politician because the explanation given was it's a paper exercise


----------



## Rorschach (4 Apr 2021)

Oh yes we were still in the EU, in a transition period, getting ready to leave, would be leaving just a few months later.

Yeah we were "still in the EU" 

Good lord I have nuclear strike sirens that didn't drone on as much as this. 

I am wondering, are you going to do a Milligan on your headstone.

"Here's lies Jacob"

"Are there any benefits to Brexit?"


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> No thanks to Brexit. The UK vac prog was initiated whilst still in. We would have done the same if we had stayed in.
> So - basically drawn a blank?


Yes the UK vac prog was initiated whilst still in.....but also Germany and some other EU nations also made deals with vac manufacturers, however the EU then said we must act together and EU nations agreed the commission would negotiate on their behalf.

If the UK was still an EU member our vaccine roll out would be at a similar stage to France.


I'm no fan of Brexit, but the UK acting alone: it paid more, absolved the pharmas from any liability and in return got vaccines quicker........that couldn't have happened as a member.


I disagree with those that argue the UK have beaten the EU on this.....we need to remember the EU has exported over 50 million vaccines and have jabbed 50 million of its citizens.

The EU is a world leader in vaccine manufacture and it has a number of factories setting up, these aren't far from coming on stream, so this "Brexit benefit" will be short lived


----------



## AJB Temple (4 Apr 2021)

Brexit benefits are largely emotive and illusory so far. However, this thread is a prime example of why so many of the active woodworkers who used to contribute regularly to the woodwork aspects of this site, now post almost entirely elsewhere. I realise that the thread is in the coffee room, but of you browse the forum using "what's new" there are relatively few active woodwork threads and this kind of material dominates activity, or at least it seems that way. It's a shame.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> He tried and got seriously dumped, definitely a wannabe politician because the explanation given was it's a paper exercise


Funny how people don't understand the "paper candidate" thing. Lots of them around and other parties do it too. 
The idea is to have a candidate in every ward/constituency including those with no chance of being won, basically just to show a presence and to test the water. 
They wouldn't have chosen me if there had been any chance of winning, nor would I have volunteered! But it was interesting though - I had to go out door knocking etc. I got a few votes - more than some other paper candidates. All part of life's rich pattern! I'd do it again if asked.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> Brexit benefits are largely emotive and illusory so far. However, this thread is a prime example of why so many of the active woodworkers who used to contribute regularly to the woodwork aspects of this site, now post almost entirely elsewhere. I realise that the thread is in the coffee room, but of you browse the forum using "what's new" there are relatively few active woodwork threads and this kind of material dominates activity, or at least it seems that way. It's a shame.


If you check the figures at the bottom of the Board Index page on various fora you will see that this one is flourishing compared to the others. The "new posts" compare well also.


----------



## Jonm (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob posted about the difficulties of sending a parcel to the Channel Islands. He was asked to supply “passport numbers for me and the recipient and all sorts of other details“. The documentation with the form also said it was the “new post Brexit form”.

It is not unreasonable to assume that this form was due to Brexit, not everyone is up to speed on the relationship between the Channel Islands special territories EU status and how this has changed with brexit and it’s implications on trade.

He is not alone in having this problem, here is a link and in the comments someone in France is saying it applies to all shipments to the UK








Seller Central







community.ebay.co.uk





Jacob cancelled the order on the basis of the hassle involved. He was criticised for this, but surely sending your passport details along with your name and address to someone you do not know is very risky, could set you up for a sophisticated scam or be used for some illegal activity. Similar for the recipient sending their details to you. I would not send my passport details in these circumstances.

It would appear that Jacob was sent the wrong form, some countries do require these types of details such as South Africa, Brazil, Argentina and Saudi Arabia.

Quite what vaccines, nhs, Northern Ireland, terrorism, coronavirus, etc has to do with a customs form for the Channel Islands I am not sure. Off topic of an off topic. Certainly anyone wanting to find out the issues relating to sending goods to the Channel Islands would struggle finding it amongst this lot.


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> Meanwhile N Ireland into it's 7th night of rioting. NI Protocol/Brexit/Irish Sea border and a couple of local issues



This is really bad.

It's Ironic really....leaving the SM and CU was sold as the "opportunity to make great deals around the world"......and yet so far every single trade deal has been an EU roll over deal.....zero new opportunity, but a border between GB and NI.


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> Quite what vaccines, nhs, Northern Ireland, terrorism, coronavirus, etc has to do with a customs form for the Channel Islands I am not sure. Off topic of an off topic. Certainly anyone wanting to find out the issues relating to sending goods to the Channel Islands would struggle finding it amongst this lot



That is the nature of conversation.


----------



## doctor Bob (4 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> Jacob posted about the difficulties of sending a parcel to the Channel Islands. He was asked to supply “passport numbers for me and the recipient and all sorts of other details“. The documentation with the form also said it was the “new post Brexit form”.
> 
> It is not unreasonable to assume that this form was due to Brexit, not everyone is up to speed on the relationship between the Channel Islands special territories EU status and how this has changed with brexit and it’s implications on trade.
> 
> ...



Jacob, wanted to start a brexit thread ................. full stop.


----------



## silentsam (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> The EU is a world leader in vaccine manufacture and it has a number of factories setting up, these aren't far from coming on stream, so this "Brexit benefit" will be short lived



Not really. The fast vaccine rollout has saved thousands of lives, 5, 10, 20, 30 years extra with a loved one isn't a short lived benefit. And there are probably tens of thousands of families in that position because of Brexit.

And to say the EU has exported 50M vaccines isn't really true. The EU do not own these vaccines. Companies have exported the vaccines. There is a reason the EU haven't banned exports fully and that's because they'd be essentially stealing them and the damage to the EU's reputation would last for a generation. Every country who relies on the EU for essential products and services will move them back home.


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> Not really. The fast vaccine rollout has saved thousands of lives, 5, 10, 20, 30 years extra with a loved one isn't a short lived benefit. And there are probably tens of thousands of families in that position because of Brexit.


we have a government that won power due to brexit, its a government built on its ability for spin not governance a government that by any metric has one of the worst performing covid record for both death rate and economic damage globally. 

sure the vaccine rollout was somewhat ahead, but the EU nations will catch up rapidly in the summer.

and to be clear: over 10 million of the vaccines we have had in the UK came from Europe

Pfizer vaccine is made in Europe

Astra Zenica is a half European company.



silentsam said:


> Not really. The fast vaccine rollout has saved thousands of lives


that is not true -thee is a finite number of vaccines, how can it have saved lives?

you mean English lives have been saved at the expense of European lives


----------



## Rorschach (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> you mean English lives have been saved at the expense of European lives



Every life "saved" is at the expense of someone else's be that vaccine or lockdown.


----------



## silentsam (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> and to be clear: over 10 million of the vaccines we have had in the UK came from Europe



From Europe, not from the EU.



RobinBHM said:


> Pfizer vaccine is made in Europe



Made in Europe, not by the EU.



RobinBHM said:


> Astra Zenica is a half European company.



Half based in Europe, not owned by the EU.


----------



## silentsam (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> you mean English lives have been saved at the expense of European lives



If we are using that theory the EU should be exporting every vaccine they have as many countries have lower vaccination rates. That isn't what they are planning though.


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> From Europe, not from the EU.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And without those companies in the EU supplying the vaccine to the UK, we wouldn't have been able to vaccinate the number of people that we have.


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> If we are using that theory the EU should be exporting every vaccine they have as many countries have lower vaccination rates. That isn't what they are planning though.


No, if we use your argument that vaccines are saving lives, then either it's a life saved in UK or in Europe.


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Every life "saved" is at the expense of someone else's be that vaccine or lockdown.


It's lucky for then that the EU have allowed exports of the vaccine at the expense of their own people.

How many vaccines has the USA exported?


----------



## Rorschach (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It's lucky for then that the EU have allowed exports of the vaccine at the expense of their own people.
> 
> How many vaccines has the USA exported?



Lucky? What a world you live in.


----------



## silentsam (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> And without those companies in the EU supplying the vaccine to the UK, we wouldn't have been able to vaccinate the number of people that we have.


That is true. I'm not sure we can give the EU credit for that or say the EU are exporting them though. That's private companies and citizens who are developing, making, bottling and distributing the vaccine. They are in the EU, yes but we don't give the British government credit for everything the UK makes and distributes.

Sure, the EU can make laws to block the vaccine being exported but that doesn't make the vaccines made in the EU theirs, they will still belong to companies making them rather than the EU. I guess they could try pass laws to take them from the companies by force because they need them but then again any thief could claim they needed the things they take.

The EU could have legally negotiated these vaccines like the UK did but their own incompetence prevented that.


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> That is true. I'm not sure we can give the EU credit for that or say the EU are exporting them though. That's private companies and citizens who are developing, making, bottling and distributing the vaccine. They are in the EU, yes but we don't give the British government credit for everything the UK makes and distributes.
> 
> Sure, the EU can make laws to block the vaccine being exported but that doesn't make the vaccines made in the EU theirs, they will still belong to companies making them rather than the EU. I guess they could try pass laws to take them from the companies by force because they need them but then again any thief could claim they needed the things they take.
> 
> The EU could have legally negotiated these vaccines like the UK did but their own incompetence prevented that.


Thank you for acknowledging the UKs vaccination programme has only been possible because of the EU....2 reasons: EU companies having the expertise and EU not preventing vaccine exports.


The USA govt made contracts with USA pharmas, effectively preventing exports.
The EU could have done the same.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

Going off topic - this is a remoaner's thread!
Some remoaners here bleating pathetically From bikes to booze, how Brexit barriers are hitting Anglo-Dutch trade hard they'll just have to try harder!


----------



## doctor Bob (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> they'll just have to try harder!



That's the spirit, like filling in that form, stick with it you'll get there, you remembered your address yet?

Look up where a labour candidate did awful in the council elections in the derbyshire area, that will narrow the location down a bit for you.


----------



## Lons (4 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> That's the spirit, like filling in that form, stick with it you'll get there, you remembered your address yet?
> 
> Look up where a labour candidate did awful in the council elections in the derbyshire area, that will narrow the location down a bit for you.


Be fair Bob
He wasn't to know that the result would have been better had he resisted the urge to go around knocking on doors.


----------



## pidgeonpost (4 Apr 2021)

This thread demonstrates one of the worst outcomes of Brexit - division. That division seems to have percolated through the whole of our society. Frequently it manifests itself in ways which are unpleasant, nasty, and often childish and cruel. It's corrosive, and it's difficult to see how that is benefitting us at the simple level of this forum, let alone at a national level.


----------



## MarkDennehy (4 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Stranger things have happened. I wouldn't be so dismissive.


Please, feel free to dismiss that thought completely from your mind, without a moment's hesitation or doubt


----------



## silentsam (4 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> He tried and got seriously dumped, definitely a wannabe politician because the explanation given was it's a paper exercise


I'm not sure that's fair. Being elected, or not elected doesn't particularly reflect badly on anyone as human, their values or beliefs. The current selection of politicians shows that. I could name quite a few who are terrible human beings and just as many who really wanted to do good who never got elected.


----------



## Spectric (4 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Hi all
> 
> Incase anyone else is looking at a combo belt/disc sander with a 4 inch belt and 8 inch disc I have the following info:
> 
> SIP SIP 4 costing £171 and weighs 34Kg with 500 Watt induction motor.



This is now £192 so is this to do with Brexit or just plain old profiteering?


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> This thread demonstrates one of the worst outcomes of Brexit - division. That division seems to have percolated through the whole of our society. Frequently it manifests itself in ways which are unpleasant, nasty, and often childish and cruel. It's corrosive, and it's difficult to see how that is benefitting us at the simple level of this forum, let alone at a national level.


I don't see Brexit division healing for a decade at least.

I expect slowly the UK will build a closer relationship with the EU to remove damaging trade barriers


----------



## Spectric (4 Apr 2021)

It is odd that if you look around yourself then trying to find anything with made in the UK is difficult, from Europe not a lot but it seems China, Taiwan and Asia in general are the big players so does that suggest that we import via Europe otherwise why so many issues, again I think from Europes aspect they want to make it hard to prove a point and from the UK there are people trying to use it as an excuse to raise prices.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I don't see Brexit division healing for a decade at least.
> 
> I expect slowly the UK will build a closer relationship with the EU to remove damaging trade barriers


It's inevitable that we will be rejoining, little by little, without many of the advantages we had previously.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> It is odd that if you look around yourself then trying to find anything with made in the UK is difficult, .....


Not really odd - it was deliberate govt policy from 1979 to run down basic industry, sell off, privatise, etc to turn UK into a finance and service economy. "Neo liberalism" - allowing the markets to decide with minimal govt intervention/control and disempowered unions..
Ask yourself what happened to ICI for instance.
One odd detail lately has been govt advice to firms struggling with brexit that they should set up EU branches to get around the red tape caused by Brexit. Many have gone, lock stock and barrel.


----------



## silentsam (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's inevitable that will be rejoining, little by little, without many of the advantages we had previously.


I don't see that at all. The support for Brexit and separation from the EU is probably at an all time high post-covid. That'll last for a generation or more. Any party that proposes joining the EU by the back door is going to get destroyed in the polls, as Labour discovered in the last election.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> I don't see that at all. The support for Brexit and separation from the EU is probably at an all time high post-covid. That'll last for a generation or more. Any party that proposes joining the EU by the back door is going to get destroyed in the polls, as Labour discovered in the last election.


It depends on there being any evidence of Brexit advantage. We have seen nothing so far - 5 years in to the process.
Unless it is forthcoming there could be a complete change around and pressure to re-join by the front door!


----------



## doctor Bob (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Not really odd - it was deliberate govt policy from 1979 to run down basic industry, sell off, privatise, etc to turn UK into a finance and service economy. "Neo liberalism" - allowing the markets to decide with minimal govt intervention/control and disempowered unions..



You need to let it go Jacob, I know it was probably upsetting when it went **** up but it was over 40 years ago, not good if it's still getting to you


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> I don't see that at all. The support for Brexit and separation from the EU is probably at an all time high post-covid. That'll last for a generation or more. Any party that proposes joining the EU by the back door is going to get destroyed in the polls, as Labour discovered in the last election.


I'm not sure that is true

Latest Ipsos poll puts:

39% of people think Brexit has had a positive effect
38% of people think Brexit has had a negative effect.

Clearly vaccine roll out is giving a boost, but within the next 6 months the world will be awash with vaccines. 

Brexit damage has been hidden by the pandemic, but it will become more obvious as time goes on.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> You need to let it go Jacob, I know it was probably upsetting when it went **** up but it was over 40 years ago, not good if it's still getting to you


Started 40 years ago, still going strong, steady privatisation of NHS just one notable example amongst many.
I bet many people don't even remember ICI


----------



## doctor Bob (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It depends on there being any evidence of Brexit advantage. We have seen nothing so far - 5 years in to the process.
> Unless it is forthcoming there could be a complete change around and pressure to re-join by the front door!



Very similar to you banging on about Jezza having a major victory .......... actually I don't think you have called anything correct to date.

Remain will win
Labour victory 1
labour victory 2
brexit won't happen (be reversed by Boris)
Rebecca long bailey

to be honest when you say something will happen it never does, I like knowing your predictions usually prove the opposite.


----------



## RobinBHM (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's inevitable that will be rejoining, little by little, without many of the advantages we had previously.


The UK won't be rejoining....not for a generation at least.

We will build a closer relationship with Europe though.


----------



## Jacob (4 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> The UK won't be rejoining....not for a generation at least.
> 
> We will build a closer relationship with Europe though.


Same difference: building/rebuilding is rejoining but differently.


----------



## silentsam (4 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Same difference: building/rebuilding is rejoining but differently.


Not really. Being friends with the EU isn't the same as being in the EU.


----------



## Jake (4 Apr 2021)

I'm sure Bob will have some sour comment about how it is remainers fault and just bleating, but this really is not good.

One in Four Small U.K. Exporters Halt EU Sales Amid Brexit Costs - Bloomberg


----------



## Rorschach (5 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> The UK won't be rejoining....not for a generation at least.
> 
> We will build a closer relationship with Europe though.



That's exactly what most Brexiteers want though, a close trading relationship based on mutual benefit but with as little political interference as possible.


----------



## machone (5 Apr 2021)

Workshop forum and bloody Brexit. Well, here is my oar...

I didn’t/don’t know whether Brexit was or is for the long term good of the UK. 

l live in the EU and am married to a European but I can trace my ‘Britishness’ back 300 years or more and mostly boring, the only ‘foreigners’ being introduced by me.

My Grandfathers and their generation had to fight. They suffered both physically and mentally. Not pleasant or anything they or their generation wanted their descendants to have to do again. That is why Europe as an idea was created - to stop division and conflict. You have to be a real bigot and a bit of an silly person to believe that we in Europe and the UK are that much different.

Europe and its governance is far from perfect and neither is the UK. However, the UK is now out of Europe. I wondered what effect this would have on me:

So far, I have had to apply for residency, at least two full days of paperwork including having my fingerprints taken and an ‘interview’. Services which I used from the UK that were valid in Europe no longer are, so I have to find European based people to do the same thing. Some of my previously automatic privileges and rights as a Brit in Europe have been taken away and I feel less welcome. Brexit has sparked a nationalist rise in a few European countries and some would argue this is good but as with Brexit I just do not see the gain.

A question for the Brexiters - how has Brexit helped me? Another one - how will it help me in the future?

As a side note, the international firm I work for was built by a Brit and has a very British name. It was bought/sold to Americans when he died but still based in the UK so tax and admin went there. Post Brexit, it is now officially based in Shannon, Ireland. In case anybody thinks like I did, before I moved there, that our friendly neighbours gain is good for us too....it isn’t, because they hate us there(on the whole).


----------



## clogs (5 Apr 2021)

we just need another country with th b**** to leave as well........then that pack of cards will have to change.....
the idea of the EU was good for trade but the self serving, greedy a holes controlling it ruined it.....thats why we left.....
to many chef's comes to mind......
I live within the EU and glad we left for our childeren's long term future........

when the world decided that South Africa was a bad place.....the S Afrikan's closed ranks and just got on with it......
Now they dont need us......this is exactly what we should do.......
Oh and the only country to still trade with them at that time was GERMANY.......u only see Merc truck's there now....or at least when I lived there....
Of course it's gone to pot now.......

we need to keep the Commmies out of power and start manufacturing and increase RnD ourselves.......
then sell our skills to the world.....


----------



## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

clogs said:


> .....
> 
> we need to .......... start manufacturing and increase RnD ourselves.......
> then sell our skills to the world.....


But not to the EU, thanks to Brexit. We have broken all sorts of ties with R&D, education/cultural exchange, EU research/developmental programs, not just trade.
We've also dipped out of trade agreements which the EU made as a bloc, made trade more difficult with our largest trading partner, and now having to compete with them on the world market instead of working with them.
Not sure what SAfrica has to do with it - nothing at all as far as I can see.


----------



## Amateur (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Funny how brexiters get this completely upside down. Strange.
> The simple fact of the EU is that it developed to make trade easier by agreeing common rules and regulations. There's a clue in the title "Common Market".
> The glaringly obvious consequence of brexit was to make trade MORE difficult, not less. This was pointed out over and over again from the start and now we see the obvious consequences as predicted.
> A real mystery that Brexiters could not see this very simple fact!
> ...




But, but, but......
This just doesn't apply to the UK.
The US are complaining about the ridiculous amount of paper work for shipped goods, and threatening action against the EU.
Even EU companies and private EU residents are complaining that purchase single source goods from the UK.
Plus every carrier has goods and parcels stuck in warehouses while hand filled forms are checked and re checked, then refused to deliver If incorrect with mountains just sat there.
If it starts affecting the likes of EU big businesses things will change, if indeed they aren't already.
As you said.
Just saying.


----------



## Amateur (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> But not to the EU, thanks to Brexit. We have broken all sorts of ties with R&D, education/cultural exchange, EU research/developmental programs, not just trade.
> We've also dipped out of trade agreements which the EU made as a bloc, made trade more difficult with our largest trading partner, and now having to compete with them on the world market instead of working with them.
> Not sure what SAfrica has to do with it - nothing at all as far as I can see.



Incorrect.
its because of China


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## Amateur (5 Apr 2021)

Folk should remember
"Nothing stays the same for ever"


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## RobinBHM (5 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> That's exactly what most Brexiteers want though, a close trading relationship based on mutual benefit but with as little political interference as possible.


Ah the "take back control" mantra.

Thats what Brexiters were sold, it's not reality.

take back control is only for the Tufton street gang....not the people.


----------



## RobinBHM (5 Apr 2021)

machone said:


> A question for the Brexiters - how has Brexit helped me? Another one - how will it help me in the future



Netherlands seem a popular place for UK businesses to move to.

I've heard of loads and loads of UK businesses move there - because Brexit effectively slams the door shut on their European customer base.

Is Brexit of any interest in the media in the Netherlands?


----------



## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Netherlands seem a popular place for UK businesses to move to.
> 
> I've heard of loads and loads of UK businesses move there - because Brexit effectively slams the door shut on their European customer base.
> 
> Is Brexit of any interest in the media in the Netherlands?











Brexit: Dutch warehouse boom as UK firms forced to invest abroad


Hornby and JD Sports among firms after space to offset port delays, extra freight costs plus new VAT and customs fees




www.theguardian.com












From bikes to booze, how Brexit barriers are hitting Anglo-Dutch trade hard


A new survey of UK and Netherlands firms shows two thirds think red tape, shipping delays and higher costs have had a negative impact on them




www.theguardian.com


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jake said:


> I'm sure Bob will have some sour comment about how it is remainers fault and just bleating, but this really is not good.
> 
> One in Four Small U.K. Exporters Halt EU Sales Amid Brexit Costs - Bloomberg



Not at all, most of my comments are about starting another brexit thread through the back door by remainers. It's done as far as I'm concerned and we get on with it or in your case don't, if you want to think me sour then that's fine.
I suspect you even question the oil stones existance.
I suggested Sploo was a bit of a wally for thinking there was no class system in the UK and he basically agreed and reworded his statement. Apart from that I don't think there is any mention "of all this id your fault", I think you are crediting me with too much.
Do you think a CN22 form is difficult to fill in? Some here were positively cheering the fact Jacob had to fill out a form, get real, it's a very very small form, a nothing, 1 min of time, yet then are prepared to spend hour arguing, it's petty/ridiculous/ small mindedness. Just look at it and be embarassed.
Would you have started a thread on it. Just look at Jacobs follow on posts, it's just a brexit thread, surely you see that, nothing to do with a form.
I have lots of new forms to fill in at work, probably on a monthly basis, would it be of interested if I posted them up, maybe we could all post up the forms we fill in, I'm all for a dull club?

The only reason I post on these threads is balance. On the very first thread it became a remainers paradise, or a "Bullyboys gang" including mods who were unable to moderate due to them overstepping the mark thenselves. I refuse to let this one become so bias. Looks like there are plenty this time around who feel the same way.

I genuinely believe the sourness comes from remianers, why wouldn't it, they didn't get what they expected (lost) and the working class gave them a good kick in the goolies (ooch).

Fundamentally a lot of this comes down to bitterness as well but thats a very long thread. Basically how middle class life is not quite what everyone wants, grass is always greener etc ..... trades earning too much, university not what it was, etc.


----------



## clogs (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob
*S Africa is a good example / comparison of us against the rest of the world.*....
just get of the stool and start to work out waht's best for us and it aint getting back with the EU....
Use em when it suits us and drop when it dont, just like they do......
Independance is a great thing......


----------



## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Not at all, most of my comments are about starting another brexit thread through the back door by remainers. It's done as far as I'm concerned and we get on with it or in your case don't, if you want to think me sour then that's fine.
> I suspect you even question the oil stones existance.
> I suggested Sploo was a bit of a wally for thinking there was no class system in the UK and he basically agreed and reworded his statement. Apart from that I don't think there is any mention "of all this id your fault", I think you are crediting me with too much.
> Do you think a CN22 form is difficult to fill in? Some here were positively cheering the fact Jacob had to fill out a form, get real, it's a very very small form, a nothing, 1 min of time, yet then are prepared to spend hour arguing, it's petty/ridiculous/ small mindedness. Just look at it and be embarassed.
> ...


I've already said several times I was wrong about the form - they sent me the wrong one, I didn't know, I don't care!
But it raised a thread! Not my intention particularly.
Nevertheless I do find these threads interesting - I like hearing what people have to say about these issues and it forces people to think about things - I find myself having to look up sources and checking facts etc.
I don't think I've ever objected to people saying what they think, though I've often disagreed with what they say.
There seems to be a need for constructive dialogue and it must be a good thing.
I'm particularly interested in those, like Bobby, who want us to shut up. I guess the hint that they may be wrong about things disturbs them, and they'd rather not know!
Anyway Bobby if it's balance you are concerned about what about coming up with some real life examples of the Brexit advantages? Seems to have drawn a complete blank so far.


----------



## machone (5 Apr 2021)

“Is Brexit of any interest in the media in the Netherlands?”

It was huge at the time but now, not really. People I speak to are either for Nexit - Netherlands exit, or they are disappointed with the UK.

Many arguments against the EU seem to me to be upside down. ‘Elf an safety’ stifling business for example....what, you mean rules to stop employers subjecting their workforce to conditions that might damage their health?! ‘Bloody eu control stifling my motorbike horsepower’ and forcing manufacturers to consider(a little bit) the pollution and environmental effects of their products. I’m sure these rules do cause expense and hassle for manufacturers but the people who benefit are the many, not the few.

Sorry if that sounds a bit ‘commie’.


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## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'm particularly interested in those, like Bobby, who want us to shut up. I guess the hint that they may be wrong about things disturbs them, and they'd rather not know!



I said I want balance, not a thread dominated by you other remainers.
Not once have I asked for a thread to be shut, stop making things up.
I'm in business Jacob, I bring things in from the EU, I work with companies bringing in stuff. I have a kitchen going to portugal in the Autumn.
I suspect I know more than "shatting me pants at a 4 line form"

I'm very much a pragmatist, I just get on with it. I find worrying and fault finding and delaying just messes everything up.


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## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I said I want balance, not a thread dominated by you other remainers.
> Not once have I asked for a thread to be shut, stop making things up.
> I'm in business Jacob, I bring things in from the EU, I work with companies bringing in stuff. I have a kitchen going to portugal in the Autumn.
> I suspect I know more than "shatting me pants at a 4 line form"


No reason why remainers shouldn't talk amongst themselves - you don't have to join in if you don't want to.
If somebody started a thread about saws would you complain that they are ignoring planes?


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> No reason why remainers shouldn't talk amongst themselves - you don't have to join in if you don't want to.
> If somebody started a thread about saws would you complain that they are ignoring planes?



Yes probably when they started to make snide comments about planes and called them thick, and planes didn't know diddly squat. When people said saws were superior and scoffed at dirty little planes.
Somehow the planes rose up and kicked the saws in the goolies and the saws did not like it.  

Bit like if someone was to start a thread on overhanding with a paintpot balanced on top, nothing to do with me but I'd post to say it's the practice of an silly person.

Keep going Jacob, I'm in the right mood for this.


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## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Yes probably when they started to make snide comments about planes and called them thick, and planes didn't know diddly squat. When people said saws were superior and scoffed at dirty little planes.
> Somehow the planes rose up and kicked the saws in the goolies and the saws did not like it.


I've never called anybody thick or accused them of being a dirty little anything.
T'other way round - how many times have you jeered at me over not filling in a form? Not that I'm bothered - scoffing and jeering is what you do - it's your speciality!


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## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

I'll give you a chance, Have a think, work on it, don't reply instantly.
Hit me with something decent, thought out.

In the meantime, why not change the title of the thread to "delivery company sent me wrong form".


----------



## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I'll give you a chance, Have a think, work on it, don't reply instantly.
> Hit me with something decent, thought out.
> 
> In the meantime, why not change the title of the thread to "delivery company sent me wrong form".


Does seem to worry you this form thing!
Sun shining I'm off for a short run - maybe you need some fresh air too. 
PS Back again, nice day for it, touch of snow!
Re "balance" I think these threads *DO* represent the balance of opinion - there's a very diverse bunch in here with just woodwork in common. A good cross section of society. Thats what makes it more interesting than a one sided political forum


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Does seem to worry you this form thing!



Well yes, just trying to get it back on thread topic track, it did seem very important to you at the time (enough to post about it) maybe it has become less important to you now that it has been trivialized. (do you think you over sensationalized it?)

Referring to your original post



Jacob said:


> Brexit dividend strikes again!
> Sold a low cost item on Ebay going to the Channel islands. Have to fill in a ludicrous customs declaration - not worth the time, nor risk of getting it wrong, so cancelled!
> If I did it again I'd ask for p&p plus £5 for admin.



So far we have established
1/ you got the wrong form, but lets blame it on brexit
2/ you tried to fill out form, couldn't be bothered to find stuff, but lets blame it on brexit
3/ you never bothered to google what form was needed, but had time to post about it on a woodworking forum blaming it on brexit
4/ The gang joins in, has a few pokes at me, blames everything on brexit
5/ Then the questions as to why I'm posting here, trolling, sour comments etc. The gangs annoyance at alternative viewpoints is very odd but predictable. Tribalism.

Pretty much the standard procedure, read any internet forum anywhere and it's the same. Same questions, same answers etc.

So be grateful this one is different and I keep trying to bring it back on track of "form filling and the difficulties".
I'm a little bit surprised to be honest that a Labour party candidate has posted about his struggles with it but very honest and open of you.Are you worried it could affect your political career if the media were to pick up on it (shhh .......... don't worry, I ain't no grass)?


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## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

You do seem worried about forms! Is it your Portuguese job getting to you? I'm sure you'd get good advice on here if you hit a snag or two.
A lot of Portugeezers speak English. I expect that will become a thing of the past as the UK fades away in international importance


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## silentsam (5 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Yes probably when they started to make snide comments about planes and called them thick, and planes didn't know diddly squat. When people said saws were superior and scoffed at dirty little planes.
> Somehow the planes rose up and kicked the saws in the goolies and the saws did not like it.
> 
> Bit like if someone was to start a thread on overhanding with a paintpot balanced on top, nothing to do with me but I'd post to say it's the practice of an silly person.
> ...


Exactly this. These posts are just bait to start another argument and somehow re-reun the referendum in a woodworking forum like it's going to change anything.

This thread should have been "I hate the new forms" with the replies being "you got the wrong one" and then it's over but the snide comments are just to bait other people into another debate which has happened.


----------



## silentsam (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> You do seem worried about forms!


Weren't you the one who made an entire thread about forms and how terrible they were?


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## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> Weren't you the one who made an entire thread about forms and how terrible they were?


I said I was wrong about the form with my third post!
However I do understand that a lot of Brexiters are not happy being called to account for the brexit fiasco. It won't stop though! I will myself as far as this thread is concerned.


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> You do seem worried about forms! Is it your Portuguese job getting to you? I'm sure you'd get good advice on here if you hit a snag or two.



No it's going fine, I'm a big boy now and ask for professional advice rather than flouncing off on a woodworking forum. I know that sounds a bit strange Jacob!!
The trick is to research.
What would your advice be, throw the form away, don't make the kitchen and have a blub on a woodworking forum?


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> A lot of Portugeezers speak English. I expect that will become a thing of the past as the UK fades away in international importance



I think "English speaking" is linked to the Empire and probably not a bad thing to diversify. Can't live in the glorious days of your youth Jacob.


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## Cheshirechappie (5 Apr 2021)

English is the new lingua Franca. They even speak a form of it in America, though not universally in parts of Wirksworth.


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> However I do understand that a lot of Brexiters are not happy being called to account for the brexit fiasco.



Your right .................. man cannot cope with filling in small form ............... well that's called me to account,you got me  .
I'm quaking in me boots waiting for the next breaking news............... "my stamp won't stick, due brexit".........


----------



## AlanY (5 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It's lucky for then that the EU have allowed exports of the vaccine at the expense of their own people.
> 
> How many vaccines has the USA exported?



Allowed? Where on Earth do you get the idea that the EU Commission has 'allowed' vaccine export? Vaccines have been purchased, paid for and exported by private companies according to contract law. Any detriment to 'their own people' is entirely down to the incompetence and greed of the EU Commission and this should not be a surprise to anyone, given their current EU Commission President. 

Sure, the EU Commission could legislate to prevent vaccine export, but that would be high risk, because, in this globalised world, some of the base products used to produce the vaccines are imported (some from the UK) and retaliation legislation would further impact the already incompetently managed vaccination of people resident in Europe. You may have noticed references to 'vaccine war'? This is what is meant by that and politicians are desperate to avoid it because it will escalate to non-vaccine issues (there have already been rumblings from some Tory MPs about threatening to withdraw security support (i.e. the British armed forces) from Europe, should the EU prevent vaccine export). 

Thankfully, this vaccine nonsense will soon be in the past, with all parties having learned not to depend on foreigners for critical supplies. For me, I also believe this experience to have been proof that the UK is far better off being away from the incompetent dinosaur that is the EU. Much better that we only have our own incompetent government to contend with, but at least we can vote for them to be replaced with another incompetent dinosaur at the next General Election.


----------



## Amateur (5 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> Allowed? Where on Earth do you get the idea that the EU Commission has 'allowed' vaccine export? Vaccines have been purchased, paid for and exported by private companies according to contract law. Any detriment to 'their own people' is entirely down to the incompetence and greed of the EU Commission and this should not be a surprise to anyone, given their current EU Commission President.
> 
> Sure, the EU Commission could legislate to prevent vaccine export, but that would be high risk, because, in this globalised world, some of the base products used to produce the vaccines are imported (some from the UK) and retaliation legislation would further impact the already incompetently managed vaccination of people resident in Europe. You may have noticed references to 'vaccine war'? This is what is meant by that and politicians are desperate to avoid it because it will escalate to non-vaccine issues (there have already been rumblings from some Tory MPs about threatening to withdraw security support (i.e. the British armed forces) from Europe, should the EU prevent vaccine export).
> 
> Thankfully, this vaccine nonsense will soon be in the past, with all parties having learned not to depend on foreigners for critical supplies. For me, I also believe this experience to have been proof that the UK is far better off being away from the incompetent dinosaur that is the EU. Much better that we only have our own incompetent government to contend with, but at least we can vote for them to be replaced with another incompetent dinosaur at the next General Election.



I think you put that quite well.

the EU like Scotland have had a good run but both wouldn't succumb to change, even when it was blatantly obvious change was needed.
Looking at history shows that leaders and institutions only have a finite time scale to better or change things, if they don't the old ways become obsolete, leaders get old the population get sick of regimes not giving what's required and they fade away without any legacy and the country is left in a mess.I

Enter the next bunch to try


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## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> Allowed? Where on Earth do you get the idea that the EU Commission has 'allowed' vaccine export? Vaccines have been purchased, paid for and exported by private companies according to contract law. Any detriment to 'their own people' is entirely down to the incompetence and greed of the EU Commission and this should not be a surprise to anyone, given their current EU Commission President.
> 
> Sure, the EU Commission could legislate to prevent vaccine export, but that would be high risk, because, in this globalised world, some of the base products used to produce the vaccines are imported (some from the UK) and retaliation legislation would further impact the already incompetently managed vaccination of people resident in Europe. You may have noticed references to 'vaccine war'? This is what is meant by that and politicians are desperate to avoid it because it will escalate to non-vaccine issues (there have already been rumblings from some Tory MPs about threatening to withdraw security support (i.e. the British armed forces) from Europe, should the EU prevent vaccine export).
> 
> Thankfully, this vaccine nonsense will soon be in the past, with all parties having learned not to depend on foreigners for critical supplies. For me, I also believe this experience to have been proof that the UK is far better off being away from the incompetent dinosaur that is the EU. Much better that we only have our own incompetent government to contend with, but at least we can vote for them to be replaced with another incompetent dinosaur at the next General Election.


The UK vaccine scenario has zero to do with Brexit - it was initiated whilst we were still in EU and would have been done the same had stayed in. A credit to British science and the govt, but a brexit non issue.
Yes the EU seemed to be incompetent, but then so were the Brits in early delays resulting in us having worst death rate than any comparable European state except Belgium.
These are beside the point. What we are looking for now is any sign of tangible UK benefits coming from Brexit.
So far there seems to be zero, not even something to look forwards to in the near future, which is astonishing bearing in mind that it has been 5 years in the planning, and so much was promised. 
We have brexit now and we want to see more than hot air and tub thumping, which is what we've had for five years. 
Come on brexiters - show us that it's been worthwhile!
On the other hand the dis-benefits seem to be mounting up and surprising everybody, not just our fishing industry!


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It won't stop though! I will myself as far as this thread is concerned.



       hello nice to see you back, I was worried about above statement, my god you stick to your guns, 4 whole hours, bravo that man, I admire your stance, you showed us


----------



## RobinBHM (5 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> Vaccines have been purchased, paid for and exported by private companies according to contract law.



the USA govt havent allowed vaccines to be exported....so what makes you think the EU commission couldnt have done the same.



AlanY said:


> incompetence and greed of the EU Commission


I dont understand -either the vaccines were exported by private companies or they werent.

If you say they were private companies then how can you come to the conclusion that it was down to "greed of the commission"



AlanY said:


> desperate to avoid it because it will escalate to non-vaccine issues


well given the EU has a gdp of $16 trillion and the UK only $2.8 trillion.
and given 46% of UK exports go to EU and only 8% of EU exports go to UK
and the UK hasnt yet negotiated a trade deal for financial service

Id be interested to know how that would work out..............



AlanY said:


> For me, I also believe this experience to have been proof that the UK is far better off being away from the incompetent dinosaur that is the EU



The EU is the worlds largest customs union and has gone further than any other trade bloc to remove trade barriers.
20% of the worlds currency reserves are held in Euros

I would hardly call it incompetent nor a dinosaur



AlanY said:


> with all parties having learned not to depend on foreigners for critical supplies.


are you sure? -I think you might find that ship has well and truly sailed

UK gets almost 75% of its medicines and 50% of its clinical consumables from or through the EU
Hinckley point -being built by EDF financed by China
most of our train operators are European companies



AlanY said:


> this vaccine nonsense will soon be in the past, with all parties having learned not to depend on foreigners for critical supplies



you think it "vaccine nonsense" that the number of vaccines exported from the EU is over 77 million doses?
UK and USA have exported zero


"The bloc has received 88 million doses, of which 62 million have so far been given out, new figures released by the European Commission (EC) showed, while it has exported 77 million doses across the world, including to North and South America, Africa, Asia, Australia and New Zealand.

However, the largest portion of 21 million doses went to shore up the UK’s vaccination campaign, according to an EU official, a figure that would make up the bulk of the roughly 30 million doses so far given out in Britain."








EU has exported more vaccine doses than have been administered to its citizens


Ireland among group of member states expressing concerns about tightening export controls




www.irishtimes.com






So the UKs vaccine programme has only been possible due to the EU......I am sure you want to thank them


----------



## powertools (5 Apr 2021)

The AZ vaccine was developed by Oxford uni with funds given by the UK government and is being produced in an AZ factory in the EU that was given a large investment from the UK on condition that the UK was supplied with the production.
This was a normal investment with a private company and the UK government but the EU seem to think that everybody else should take the risk and they can take the benefit


----------



## silentsam (5 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> the USA govt havent allowed vaccines to be exported....so what makes you think the EU commission couldnt have done the same.



The USA are self reliant, similar to how many Brexiteers want the UK to be I guess. They don't need to rely on other countries for the production of vaccines or supplies to produce them which both the EU and UK are. They also signed contracts to buy any and all vaccines quickly (like the UK, unlike the EU) so they were never even offered for sale to other countries as they had a guaranteed sale at home.



RobinBHM said:


> Hinckley point -being built by EDF financed by China



This has actually made the point for AlanY to be honest. I saw a few weeks ago an MP suggesting that if the EU can't be relied on to honour contracts in a crisis we need to look again at essential products and services and bringing them back to the UK. An possible future energy crisis and EDF were specifically mentioned as an example.


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## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Train operators doesn't exactly score too many points as well.
Mind you I'm in commuter belt so maybe not the best.


----------



## powertools (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> The UK vaccine scenario has zero to do with Brexit - it was initiated whilst we were still in EU and would have been done the same had stayed in. A credit to British science and the govt, but a brexit non issue.
> Yes the EU seemed to be incompetent, but then so were the Brits in early delays resulting in us having worst death rate than any comparable European state except Belgium.
> These are beside the point. What we are looking for now is any sign of tangible UK benefits coming from Brexit.
> So far there seems to be zero, not even something to look forwards to in the near future, which is astonishing bearing in mind that it has been 5 years in the planning, and so much was promised.
> ...



First tangible benefit is that we haven't been forced to join the Euro. There is no doubt in my mind if we had voted remain we would have been forced to join the Euro project.
Second tangible benefit is that we have no responsibility for the huge amounts of money the EU have borrowed on the pretence of a covid recovery fund but in truth is to prop up some of their failed economies just so they can continue paying interest on the bail out loans that have been given over many years and have no chance of ever being able to pay off.


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## Rorschach (5 Apr 2021)

Funny how when something good happens, nothing to do with Brexit, we could have done that all along. But when something bad happens, BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT look how awful it is. 

Strange cognitive dissonance there.


----------



## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> First tangible benefit is that we haven't been forced to join the Euro. There is no doubt in my mind if we had voted remain we would have been forced to join the Euro project.


We weren't in the euro and they couldn't force us, so that isn't a benefit of any sort


> Second tangible benefit is that we have no responsibility for the huge amounts of money the EU have borrowed on the pretence of a covid recovery fund but in truth is to prop up some of their failed economies just so they can continue paying interest on the bail out loans that have been given over many years and have no chance of ever being able to pay off.


Not a "tangible" benefit unless you can put figures to it and draw up a balance sheet, a very complicated cost/benefit analysis, future projections etc. Both these are entirely hypothetical and were we still in we would have influence on the outcome.
I mean real benefits, such as a trade suddenly discovering an advantage, like the opposite of the fishing industry and so many others who have hit problems. Where are all the world-wide trade deals we were promised?


----------



## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Funny how when something good happens, nothing to do with Brexit, we could have done that all along. But when something bad happens, BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT look how awful it is.
> 
> Strange cognitive dissonance there.


Cognitive dawning of reality
We are all waiting for you to point out a benefit, other than arguing about the vaccine rollout which is neither here nor there, but the ONLY supposed example of a benefit anybody has offered.
Fact is there are no benefits at all, not even anything in the pipe line. It's all hypothetical hot air, just as it has been for 5 years.
It's worse than even the worst remoaners expected. Brexiters are slowly realising this - I know it's a bit of a shock!
Beam me up Scotty!


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Your definately back then Jacoob?
Jezza had the same issue, couldn't decide whether to leave or stay and in the end didn't do either, good to see you can do a U turn.
You know you're doing a Roger?


----------



## Rorschach (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Cognitive dawning of reality
> We are all waiting for you to point out a benefit, other than arguing about the vaccine rollout which is neither here nor there, but the ONLY supposed example of a benefit anybody has offered.
> Fact is there are no benefits at all, not even anything in the pipe line. It's all hypothetical hot air, just as it has been for 5 years.
> It's worse than even the worst remoaners expected. Brexiters are slowly realising this - I know it's a bit of a shock!
> Beam me up Scotty!



I've found a benefit, it's perfectly tangible, and best of all totally down to Brexit, no way we could have achieved it while still in the EU.

We have given you one bone fide, 24k gold, mint condition dead horse to flog. You can go on about it for years, until you meet your demise in fact, it will never disappear and you will never tire of flogging it. It will bring you such joy in your remaining years that thinking about you passing on and having to give it up brings a little tear to my eye.
Rest assured though, when you are nothing but worm food I will still think fondly of you and when something Brexit related comes up on the VR news injected directly into my brain, as it will be in the future, I will turn to the missus and say with a little lump in my throat, "Jacob would have bloody loved moaning about this".

And she will say....

"Who?"


----------



## powertools (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> We weren't in the euro and they couldn't force us, so that isn't a benefit of any sortNot a "tangible" benefit unless you can put figures to it and draw up a balance sheet, a very complicated cost/benefit analysis, future projections etc. Both these are entirely hypothetical and were we still in we would have influence on the outcome.
> I mean real benefits, such as a trade suddenly discovering an advantage, like the opposite of the fishing industry and so many others who have hit problems. Where are all the world-wide trade deals we were promised?



The EU have not been shy in stating their ultimate aim and that would not be possible unless all members had a joint currency.


----------



## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> The EU have not been shy in stating their ultimate aim and that would not be possible unless all members had a joint currency.


But we could leave if we couldn't agree on the Euro, or anything else.
There you go I've come up with the single valid benefit of brexit - it demonstrates to all those doubting Thomases than we can leave if we want to - we haven't lost "sovereignty"or been taken over against our will!
I keep trying to get out of this thread, can I go now?


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I keep trying to get out of this thread, can I go now?



Don't keep doing a Roger!


----------



## AlanY (5 Apr 2021)

I do wonder if any Brexit voter ever really believed that the benefits to the UK would appear overnight? Me? I did not vote for Brexit because I believed we would be joyriding rainbows the next day. I voted for Brexit because it was how I would have voted had John Major not betrayed the country and refused a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty back in 1992. If he had done so then, the country would have said no to joining (Major knew this, which is why he refused it) and we would have moved from the EEC (which I fully approved of) to an EEA trade agreement with the EU, similar to Norway, et al. Where we would still be now. But no, such a thing would not provide UK politicians with the gravy train they desired, or the 'legacy' they felt they were entitled to (very amusing that Major's legacy is more about his shagging Edwina Curry than about taking the UK into the EU). So, Brexit was my vote from 1992. Okay, so I hold a grudge. But, in my defence, I never watched or listened to any of the campaign garbage from either side. Life is too short for that rubbish and, anyway, what was the point of the promises being made or of Project Fear when no negotiations had even been started? Post-Brexit, I will admit to holding a lingering fantasy which was to go to London, steal a big red bus and run down that . who stood there every day shouting 'Stop Brexit'. Then reverse and repeat a few times just to make sure.

So, having been out for 5 minutes and seen our economy smashed by a pandemic that was so badly handled by our Government (I refer back to what I think will happen at the next GE: incompetent dinosaurs out, incompetent dinosaurs in) we now have the equivalent of the Westminster gob (no offence intended, Jacob, I am not thinking specifically of you) screaming at us to 'name one benefit of Brexit' as if Brexit was a gameshow. Admittedly, it is the only string Europhiles have left in their bow, but (IMHO) it is too early to demand tangible evidence of anything. Come back and ask again in 10 years when we will have been through a half-decent economic cycle and will have some data to measure against. Even better, wait 40 years and, if you are still unhappy, fight for a referendum. You will get one. Politicians just love gravy trains (a lot more than they give a dung about their country, it seems). Anyhow, just my tuppence worth. I will say no more on this thread.

PS: I turned my first bowl today, made from green ash and dried in a dehydrator before finishing. I am very happy.


----------



## silentsam (5 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> Post-Brexit, I will admit to holding a lingering fantasy which was to go to London, steal a big red bus and run down that . who stood there every day shouting 'Stop Brexit'. Then reverse and repeat a few times just to make sure.



To be fair I think even the most ardent remainers hated that guy shouting over every interview and news report for 3 years. Possibly the only think brexiteers and remainers can agree on.


----------



## Jacob (5 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> I do wonder if any Brexit voter ever really believed that the benefits to the UK would appear overnight? ......


5 years of negotiations, not to mention promises. Another 5 years?


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> 5 years of negotiations, not to mention promises. Another 5 years?



Hello again, not very good at this are you.   How come you can stick with replying but not form filling?


----------



## Noel (5 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> I do wonder if any Brexit voter ever really believed that the benefits to the UK would appear overnight? Me? I did not vote for Brexit because I believed we would be joyriding rainbows the next day. I voted for Brexit because it was how I would have voted had John Major not betrayed the country and refused a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty back in 1992. If he had done so then, the country would have said no to joining (Major knew this, which is why he refused it) and we would have moved from the EEC (which I fully approved of) to an EEA trade agreement with the EU, similar to Norway, et al. Where we would still be now. But no, such a thing would not provide UK politicians with the gravy train they desired, or the 'legacy' they felt they were entitled to (very amusing that Major's legacy is more about his shagging Edwina Curry than about taking the UK into the EU). So, Brexit was my vote from 1992. Okay, so I hold a grudge. But, in my defence, I never watched or listened to any of the campaign garbage from either side. Life is too short for that rubbish and, anyway, what was the point of the promises being made or of Project Fear when no negotiations had even been started? Post-Brexit, I will admit to holding a lingering fantasy which was to go to London, steal a big red bus and run down that . who stood there every day shouting 'Stop Brexit'. Then reverse and repeat a few times just to make sure.
> 
> So, having been out for 5 minutes and seen our economy smashed by a pandemic that was so badly handled by our Government (I refer back to what I think will happen at the next GE: incompetent dinosaurs out, incompetent dinosaurs in) we now have the equivalent of the Westminster gob (no offence intended, Jacob, I am not thinking specifically of you) screaming at us to 'name one benefit of Brexit' as if Brexit was a gameshow. Admittedly, it is the only string Europhiles have left in their bow, but (IMHO) it is too early to demand tangible evidence of anything. Come back and ask again in 10 years when we will have been through a half-decent economic cycle and will have some data to measure against. Even better, wait 40 years and, if you are still unhappy, fight for a referendum. You will get one. Politicians just love gravy trains (a lot more than they give a dung about their country, it seems). Anyhow, just my tuppence worth. I will say no more on this thread.
> 
> PS: I turned my first bowl today, made from green ash and dried in a dehydrator before finishing. I am very happy.


 
Alan, did you (or any similar thinking friends) give any consideration or thought to N Ireland, GFA, cross border cooperation, GB NI trade etc when voting for Brexit? Was it on anybody’s radar?

PS- well done on the bowl.


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

whoops wrong thread, post deleted.


----------



## Chris152 (5 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I've found a benefit, it's perfectly tangible, and best of all totally down to Brexit, no way we could have achieved it while still in the EU.
> 
> We have given you one bone fide, 24k gold, mint condition dead horse to flog. You can go on about it for years, until you meet your demise in fact, it will never disappear and you will never tire of flogging it. It will bring you such joy in your remaining years that thinking about you passing on and having to give it up brings a little tear to my eye.
> Rest assured though, when you are nothing but worm food I will still think fondly of you and when something Brexit related comes up on the VR news injected directly into my brain, as it will be in the future, I will turn to the missus and say with a little lump in my throat, "Jacob would have bloody loved moaning about this".
> ...


What a hideous post.


----------



## doctor Bob (5 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> Alan, did you (or any similar thinking friends) give any consideration or thought to N Ireland, GFA, cross border cooperation, GB NI trade etc when voting for Brexit? Was it on anybody’s radar?



As you are asking Alan and similar, I assume you think all remainers voted to remain because of heavy consideration of the NI/GFA/etc.
I know your not thick, so I think we can agree that can't be the case.
Therefore a lot of remainers will have voted without giving Ireland a thought. But they are OK because they voted for what you wanted. So logically you are just pineappled because we voted against what you wanted, not that NI was or wasn't considered.


----------



## RobinBHM (5 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> The EU have not been shy in stating their ultimate aim and that would not be possible unless all members had a joint currency.


It's never been compulsory and the UK would never have been forced to join.


----------



## selectortone (5 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It's never been compulsory and the UK would never have been forced to join.


 Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania and Sweden are all members of the EU that have retained their own currency.


----------



## Awac (5 Apr 2021)

Chris152 said:


> What a hideous post.



I agree.


----------



## RobinBHM (5 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> Politicians just love gravy trains


The real purpose of Brexit: vested self interest by a disparate group with a single goal: make money.

If you want to know about the gravy train behind Brexit, do a bit of research on Tufton street network....it's where Brexit so called thinks tanks, right wing libertarian groups, private healthcare interests, fossil fuel interests, climate change deniers, vote Leave campaigners, hedge fund managers, disaster capitalists.....are all connected.










Mapped: Boris Johnson's Cabinet and the Tufton Street Lobbying Network


Boris Johnson has retained a core of ministers linked to a lobbying network pushing to weaken the UK’s environmental regulations in his first cabinet reshuffle since the general election. But the day also saw a number of high-profile sackings, potentially weakening the network’s influence in...




www.desmog.co.uk













Brexit Scam: We Need to Talk About Tufton Street...... - Brexitshambles


More intriguing than a John le Carré thriller, the shadowy story behind Brexit is a tailor-made blockbuster.




www.brexitshambles.com






The truth behind Brexit is found by following the money.

I'm no fan of the EU, it has deep rooted structural problems....I wouldn't have minded if Brexit had been enabled for honest reasons, but it hasn't


----------



## RobinBHM (5 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> Alan, did you (or any similar thinking friends) give any consideration or thought to N Ireland, GFA, cross border cooperation, GB NI trade etc when voting for Brexit? Was it on anybody’s radar?
> 
> PS- well done on the bowl.


I have to be honest, I knew very little about Northern Ireland or the GFA before 2016. And it wasn't really a consideration in the referendum, I only became aware during the Theresa Mays "backstop" period.

And in fact I knew very little about the EU, the Single Market or Customs Union.


----------



## Awac (5 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> As you are asking Alan and similar, I assume you think all remainers voted to remain because of heavy consideration of the NI/GFA/etc.
> I know your not thick, so I think we can agree that can't be the case.
> Therefore a lot of remainers will have voted without giving Ireland a thought. But they are OK because they voted for what you wanted. So logically you are just pineappled because we voted against what you wanted, not that NI was or wasn't considered.


Remain voters didn't need to consider Ireland in voting as their vote wouldn't have caused any issues for NI. 

Typically, English voters have no idea of the relationships of Uk/Ni/ROI, but leave voters seem to me to be wanting a return to the glory days of the empire (‘_I just wish I was 21 again, frankly. Because my goodness what prospects lie ahead of us for young people now. To be out there buccaneering trading, dominating the world again…_’*Sir Iain Duncan Smith*). Jeez, read up on Irish history and see why comments like this are not helpful (I know you are not thick, so we can agree on that ). It almost makes you think that the Tory government wish to cause antagonism so they can close the borders and return to dominating again....


----------



## Jake (6 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> First tangible benefit is that we haven't been forced to join the Euro. There is no doubt in my mind if we had voted remain we would have been forced to join the Euro project.



That is 180 degrees wrong. We could not have been made to join the Euro as an existing MS. We had a veto and exercised an opt out. 

We will now end up joining it when we rejoin in a decade or three, because it is mandatory for new entrants.


----------



## Jacob (6 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> As you are asking Alan and similar, I assume you think all remainers voted to remain because of heavy consideration of the NI/GFA/etc.
> I know your not thick, so I think we can agree that can't be the case.
> Therefore a lot of remainers will have voted without giving Ireland a thought. But they are OK because they voted for what you wanted. So logically you are just pineappled because we voted against what you wanted, not that NI was or wasn't considered.


My thoughts on NI was that EU membership (plus GFA) tended towards a trouble-free de-facto reunification of Ireland as the UK border became less significant - more historical than real.
Same could be said for the UK as a whole, the EU strengthened the Union as the political differences between the UK nations faded in significance under the broader aegis of the EU. 
No threat to the cultural differences, if anything they would be liberated - the sting taken out of morris dancing, caber tossing, Cerdd Dant, and orange walks!
Brexit is intensely divisive, as we see.


----------



## Noho12C (6 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> The AZ vaccine was developed by Oxford uni with funds given by the UK government and is being produced in an AZ factory in the EU that was given a large investment from the UK on condition that the UK was supplied with the production.
> This was a normal investment with a private company and the UK government but the EU seem to think that everybody else should take the risk and they can take the benefit



The Pfizer vaccine was (mostly) funded by the EU, yet EU has exported 13 millions doses to the UK. 

The big issue here is the UK government blaming "vaccine nationalism", yet they have a contract that prevent any export until they have a full vaccination. Isnt that vaccine nationalism ? 

The pot calling the kettle black...


----------



## willsie01 (6 Apr 2021)

I hated Brexit but It's done. This thread has nowhere to go with that argument. Should be focusing on the fact our government are despotic rogues.


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## willsie01 (6 Apr 2021)

With the way politics are in the U.K. at the moment it could be 47 years before we get rid of despotic governments: 

I personally miss the freedom to work across the EU I had as a contractor. In my working life I had to take advantage of it when there wasn't any work in the U.K. Worked in Italy, Germany and Holland.


----------



## planesleuth (6 Apr 2021)

I started to read this thread but then fell asleep. Comments here are as bad as to be found on the BBC news. Full of 'experts' trying to score better points than the previous 'expert'. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.


----------



## MarkDennehy (6 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> Allowed? Where on Earth do you get the idea that the EU Commission has 'allowed' vaccine export? Vaccines have been purchased, paid for and exported by private companies according to contract law. Any detriment to 'their own people' is entirely down to the incompetence and greed of the EU Commission and this should not be a surprise to anyone, given their current EU Commission President.


Minor issue with that one - the EU contract with AZ was signed the day before the UK contract with AZ, but AZ claimed that the UK contract, being older, took precendence. So contract law has been put through a wringer by this whole mess, and it hasn't exactly "been cricket", so to speak, because in cricket, people object if the keeper pulls out a cosh and knocks out the batsman as the bowler runs up.

I may have mangled that analogy, cricket isn't exactly a popular sport here, I learned what I know of the rules of the sport from Douglas Adams. I still don't know where the alien spaceship bit comes in.

The other minor point that ought to be mentioned is that a lot of the vaccines are physically located within the EU in their various factories and storage facilities, and yes, the companies involved legally required permissions to export those vaccines, which they have gotten from the EU.

And it should be pointed out that that's not a universal thing - the US hasn't been exporting any (neither has the UK btw), and in general we - the entire human race, that is - have been the usual disappointment to our grandkids when it comes to vaccine distribution. Most of the guys I'm talking to daily in the US (I work for a MNC) are getting their jabs now, as are some in the UK, but if you're in Kenya, you're not getting a vaccine till sometime in 2023 at this rate.

And that's not some wishy-washy do-gooder ethics problem, to borrow a phrase, it's a gun to our heads because where do you think B117 came from? Or the newer variants that are arising? You don't vaccinate all eight billion of us, and all you're doing is leaving open the door for a new variant that maybe even the mRNA vaccines aren't effective against, and then we're right back to March 2020 again.

And the WHO have been warning about this for *months* now. It's one of the biggest risks they see over the next few years.


----------



## DBT85 (6 Apr 2021)

willsie01 said:


> I hated Brexit but It's done. This thread has nowhere to go with that argument. Should be focusing on the fact our government are despotic rogues.


Oh I'm SURE you'll get people saying they are delightful chaps.


----------



## Jacob (6 Apr 2021)

willsie01 said:


> I hated Brexit but It's done. This thread has nowhere to go with that argument. Should be focusing on the fact our government are despotic rogues.


It's not done though.
Non of the magic trade deals promised have materialised - remember "oven ready deal" where on earth did that disappear to?
We are heading for a massive recession. Over the next few years much of the brexit damage will have to be undone.
The facts are staring us in the face but will be blamed on covid, European intransigence, unions, lazy workforce, or anything.


----------



## silentsam (6 Apr 2021)

Noho12C said:


> The Pfizer vaccine was (mostly) funded by the EU, yet EU has exported 13 millions doses to the UK.



The EU haven't exported any vaccines, they don't own them. Companies within the EU have exported vaccines as per the contracts they made at the start of the pandemic.


----------



## silentsam (6 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> . Most of the guys I'm talking to daily in the US (I work for a MNC) are getting their jabs now, as are some in the UK, but if you're in Kenya, you're not getting a vaccine till sometime in 2023 at this rate.



There have only been 2000 deaths in Kenya vs 120,000+ in the UK so the priority should be the UK where more lives can be saved in the short term. Once the UK has finished vaccinating I do believe we should be helping poorer countries with out factories which I hear from the news is what is going to happen.


----------



## Jacob (6 Apr 2021)

I found the forms which set off this thread. Quite a lot of info required, with the implication that if incorrect the sale might fail. Not worth the candle I thought - on top of post & packing and general fiddling about, for a tiny profit of £3!
What are these forms then, if they are the wrong ones? Does anybody know?


----------



## silentsam (6 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> Minor issue with that one - the EU contract with AZ was signed the day before the UK contract with AZ, but AZ claimed that the UK contract, being older, took precendence.



Also, from my understanding this isn't quite true. The contract with AZ and the UK was signed the day before BUT the UK signed a contract with Oxford well before a producer of the vaccine (in this case AZ) was decided.

" The contract the European Commission negotiated together with the *EU* Member States *was* approved on 14 August and entered into force on 27 August. "

The contract the UK signed with Oxford was in June.


----------



## Noel (6 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I found the forms which set off this thread. Quite a lot of info required, with the implication that if incorrect the sale might fail. Not worth the candle I thought - on top of post & packing and general fiddling about, for a tiny profit of £3!
> What are these forms then, if they are the wrong ones? Does anybody know?
> View attachment 107667
> View attachment 107668



Standard generic customs form, usually 5 copies individually signed. Used to use these before Trusted Trader/Trader Support online services.
And yes, any mistakes or inaccuracies generally held things up and you had to find an agent to go to where ever the shipment was and get it corrected, at about €50 an hour..........


----------



## Noho12C (6 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> The EU haven't exported any vaccines, they don't own them. Companies within the EU have exported vaccines as per the contracts they made at the start of the pandemic.



I see, I see.

So yes, the fact that UK is having a good vaccination progress is due to their vaccination nationalism mindset, where they signed a contract "me first". Though I still dont get why Johnson, Raab and Hancock keep blaming other countries for potential vaccine nationalism. Could that be hypocrisy ? I'm sure you will be able to give some insights.

EU is far from perfect (bureaucratic, slow, etc.) but at least hasn't been playing solo like the UK government has been. It's paying off now for this vaccination campaign, but I think (and hope) that EU and other countries (US among others) will remember this behavior.


----------



## Jacob (6 Apr 2021)

Noho12C said:


> I see, I see.
> 
> So yes, the fact that UK is having a good vaccination progress is due to their vaccination nationalism mindset, where they signed a contract "me first". Though I still dont get why Johnson, Raab and Hancock keep blaming other countries for potential vaccine nationalism. Could that be hypocrisy ? I'm sure you will be able to give some insights.........


Hypocrisy, and they were having to cover their tracks urgently as they realised that their inertia and complacency was giving UK some of world's worst death rates.


----------



## JohnPW (6 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I found the forms which set off this thread. Quite a lot of info required, with the implication that if incorrect the sale might fail. Not worth the candle I thought - on top of post & packing and general fiddling about, for a tiny profit of £3!
> What are these forms then, if they are the wrong ones? Does anybody know?
> View attachment 107667
> View attachment 107668


I would think you can leave a lot of the questions blank, simply because you don't have a passport/ID number, or you just don't know. Same goes for tariff numbers, country of origin etc.

It looks like the form is what couriers use, the Royal Mail form is much simpler.


----------



## Jester129 (6 Apr 2021)

Scotty, _*PLEASE *_beam him up, he has asked for it!


----------



## PUtcvNqa (6 Apr 2021)

Noho12C said:


> The Pfizer vaccine was (mostly) funded by the EU, yet EU has exported 13 millions doses to the UK.
> 
> The big issue here is the UK government blaming "vaccine nationalism", yet they have a contract that prevent any export until they have a full vaccination. Isnt that vaccine nationalism ?
> 
> The pot calling the kettle black...



thought it was the the German govt that gave some funding to BioNtech (and CureVac)-
yanks committed to a couple of billion in orders and of course we got it approved quicker (and ordered). 

Seems there's some very disappointed folk about that the UK rollout has gone well and the EU has been such a shambles 
- even to point of some old pony about filling in the wrong form


----------



## Jacob (6 Apr 2021)

PUtcvNqa said:


> thought it was the the German govt that gave some funding to BioNtech (and CureVac)-
> yanks committed to a couple of billion in orders and of course we got it approved quicker (and ordered).
> 
> Seems there's some very disappointed folk about that the UK rollout has gone well and the EU has been such a shambles
> - even to point of some old pony about filling in the wrong form


Not disappointed at all - I had jab one weeks ago and expecting jab two any day now.


----------



## RobinBHM (6 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> This has actually made the point for AlanY to be honest. I saw a few weeks ago an MP suggesting that if the EU can't be relied on to honour contracts in a crisis we need to look again at essential products and services and bringing them back to the UK. An possible future energy crisis and EDF were specifically mentioned as an example



As I said, that ship has well and truly sailed.

We can't bring back such services to the UK....this country no longer has the expertise.

And Brexit will only accelerate that.....the drop in value of sterling has left UK vulnerable to foreign investment...looking to buy up cheap investments.


----------



## pidgeonpost (6 Apr 2021)

At a time when nations are increasingly interconnected and often interdependent, I find it intriguing to consider the idea that we can just bring everything back in-house and gain independence from 'foreigners'. It's largely 'foreigners' who make our tools, grow our food, design and build our cars, not to mention those who work in the UK and contribute to our economy.
The pandemic has revealed some of the best and worst of human behaviour, but if we're to survive as a race we'd better get used to the idea that international cooperation is essential.
If you're at a loose end have a listen to 
Noam Chomsky speaking on the 'Today' programme recently, around 45 minutes in.
The greedy scramble for vaccines by wealthy nations is not a good look.


----------



## powertools (6 Apr 2021)

Noho12C said:


> The Pfizer vaccine was (mostly) funded by the EU, yet EU has exported 13 millions doses to the UK.
> 
> The big issue here is the UK government blaming "vaccine nationalism", yet they have a contract that prevent any export until they have a full vaccination. Isnt that vaccine nationalism ?
> 
> The pot calling the kettle black...




Someone suggested that all vaccines were a product of the EU and I was pointing out that the AZ vax was a product developed in the UK with UK finance and is being made in a factory in the EU that has been given funding to expand production to supply the UK. I did not suggest that the EU have done nothing other than being late to give contracts to companies.


----------



## powertools (6 Apr 2021)

Jake said:


> That is 180 degrees wrong. We could not have been made to join the Euro as an existing MS. We had a veto and exercised an opt out.
> 
> We will now end up joining it when we rejoin in a decade or three, because it is mandatory for new entrants.




I am well aware of what the situation was at the time but if the UK had given a mandate to remain within the EU that would have been the ideal time for things to change.


----------



## John Brown (6 Apr 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> This thread demonstrates one of the worst outcomes of Brexit - division. That division seems to have percolated through the whole of our society. Frequently it manifests itself in ways which are unpleasant, nasty, and often childish and cruel. It's corrosive, and it's difficult to see how that is benefitting us at the simple level of this forum, let alone at a national level.


To be fair, the same crowd used to pick on Jacob before the referendum. It seems to be water off a duck's back to him, which is probably really irritating to the bullies, and why they keep at it.


----------



## Jacob (6 Apr 2021)

John Brown said:


> To be fair, the same crowd used to pick on Jacob before the referendum. It seems to be water off a duck's back to him, which is probably really irritating to the bullies, and why they keep at it.


Yep tis water off me back - I see it as missionary work!  
Seriously though - these things need talking about and it's as relevant here as anywhere else, as part of an ongoing national conversation. A very diverse bunch here, which makes it more interesting.


----------



## D_W (6 Apr 2021)

John Brown said:


> To be fair, the same crowd used to pick on Jacob before the referendum. It seems to be water off a duck's back to him, which is probably really irritating to the bullies, and why they keep at it.



IT probably irritates him, too. But I think you're discounting the fact that people with oppositional disorders have the urge to keep doing what jacob does, too, even if the result of the discussion gets them frustrated sometimes. 

Not saying jacob has one, but I probably do a little (or more the tendency to wait and check before just agreeing and then disagree freely if something doesn't make sense), and I know a few folks who have kids who have clinical oppositional disorders. They're tough to be around if you have kids who even half listen!!


----------



## sploo (6 Apr 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> At a time when nations are increasingly interconnected and often interdependent, I find it intriguing to consider the idea that we can just bring everything back in-house and gain independence from 'foreigners'. It's largely 'foreigners' who make our tools, grow our food, design and build our cars, not to mention those who work in the UK and contribute to our economy.


Ah yes, but you're using rational thinking, and logical conjecture based on facts and available evidence. None of that has a place in a Brexit debate, sadly.


----------



## sploo (6 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I suggested Sploo was a bit of a wally for thinking there was no class system in the UK and he basically agreed and reworded his statement.


*polite cough*

That's not what I said (on either point). Read the posts again.


----------



## John Brown (6 Apr 2021)

D_W said:


> IT probably irritates him, too. But I think you're discounting the fact that people with oppositional disorders have the urge to keep doing what jacob does, too, even if the result of the discussion gets them frustrated sometimes.
> 
> Not saying jacob has one, but I probably do a little (or more the tendency to wait and check before just agreeing and then disagree freely if something doesn't make sense), and I know a few folks who have kids who have clinical oppositional disorders. They're tough to be around if you have kids who even half listen!!


As always, you have friends who corroborate or support your theories. 
It's a useful, if somewhat transparent device.


----------



## Jacob (6 Apr 2021)

D_W said:


> IT probably irritates him, too. But I think you're discounting the fact that people with oppositional disorders have the urge to keep doing what jacob does, too, even if the result of the discussion gets them frustrated sometimes.
> 
> Not saying jacob has one, but I probably do a little (or more the tendency to wait and check before just agreeing and then disagree freely if something doesn't make sense), and I know a few folks who have kids who have clinical oppositional disorders. They're tough to be around if you have kids who even half listen!!


Interesting (vaguely). So you think anybody who disagrees with or challenges anything you say, has an "oppositional disorder"?
Have you talked to anybody about this problem?


----------



## D_W (6 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Interesting (vaguely). So you think anybody who disagrees with or challenges anything you say, has an "oppositional disorder"?
> Have you talked to anybody about this?



extrapolation, jacob. Someone who gets titillations out of saying the same thing over and over to the same group is bordering on an oppositional disorder. Especially when they fail to see anything else other than what they're promoting.

Or my real label - one that got me sent to "time out" in jr high (1 hour of suspension and no class credit). Instigating.

Everyone disagrees with me. You haven't provided any legitimate challenge to anything I've looked at. There are professional furniture makers who have (their view is often that the opportunity to use hand tools in paying work that actually has to put food on the table is limited and back and forth. For example, surface planing, etc, gives way to heavy duty sanding regimens because most customers just don't care at all.

As far as your assertions about what saves time and what doesn't in sharpening, you just don't know what you're talking about because of lack of experience. But knowing little makes it easy to be sure that I'm wrong about that looking through your lens. It's my wheelhouse. The difference between you and me is I don't talk about making bannisters, rails, etc, because I've made a couple but I'll leave talking about what should be to people who have made 300.

I try to focus on competence. Sometimes that makes someone not so bold outside of their wheelhouse (I'm not). We recently had a professional lecture in my area of practice (White collar) where we're very technical and the consequences of being wrong are high. The paid speaker obviously lives in a world that's not like this, because she kept saying over and over, "confidence beats competence every time". I think she's lacking exposure to a world that isn't sales related where poor work doesn't lose a sale, it gets you sued. But your insistence on specific things that would be far better with not much modification reminds me of that speech.


----------



## MarkDennehy (6 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> Also, from my understanding this isn't quite true. The contract with AZ and the UK was signed the day before BUT the UK signed a contract with Oxford well before a producer of the vaccine (in this case AZ) was decided.
> " The contract the European Commission negotiated together with the *EU* Member States *was* approved on 14 August and entered into force on 27 August. "
> The contract the UK signed with Oxford was in June.


And on that point the case revolved, whether a contract signed with another party was valid here. One side said yes, the other no (because otherwise you wouldn't have a case, you'd have two people with no dispute  ). 
Which is why I said contract law had been through the wringer - if it had just been outright broken, we'd be using very different words!


----------



## RobinBHM (6 Apr 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> I find it intriguing to consider the idea that we can just bring everything back in-house and gain independence from 'foreigners



I think it rather sums up the difference between the Brexit dream and the Brexit reality.

Bringing manufacturing expertise back in house is a good ideal. I for one would applaud a long term vision where massive investment was put into technical colleges. This country also needs professional managers, not the old boys network.

But the reality is that Brexit enables deregulation, so we will see free market libertarian groups carving up UK businesses and public contracts for the personal gain of a few. That won't bring expertise back in house.


----------



## RobinBHM (6 Apr 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> The pandemic has revealed some of the best and worst of human behaviour, but if we're to survive as a race we'd better get used to the idea that international cooperation is essential


I find it rather disheartening that those who are complaining the EU are engaging in "vaccine nationalism".....refuse to acknowledge the UK wouldn't have got very far without all the vaccines coming from the EU. 
The UK should be thankful the EU have exported so many vaccines

As pleased as I am about the UKs progress, I look at the news about the huge rise in cases in France and elsewhere with a great concern....personally I really hope their vaccine factories get on stream very soon.


----------



## silentsam (6 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I think it rather sums up the difference between the Brexit dream and the Brexit reality.
> 
> Bringing manufacturing expertise back in house is a good ideal. I for one would applaud a long term vision where massive investment was put into technical colleges. This country also needs professional managers, not the old boys network.
> 
> But the reality is that Brexit enables deregulation, so we will see free market libertarian groups carving up UK businesses and public contracts for the personal gain of a few. That won't bring expertise back in house.


The last paragraph is actually the difference between remainers and leavers. Remainers believe only the EU can do good things and introduce good regulations, brexiteers want to be able to vote for the people who make the laws and decide which rules we want and don't want.

Remainers seem to be under some illusion that Boris is going to be Prime Minister forever and we can't vote at the next election for the change we want to see (we can even send a message to politicians when we vote on the 6th May). That could be increase regulations is some areas, lower regulations where we want them.


----------



## silentsam (6 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I find it rather disheartening that those who are complaining the EU are engaging in "vaccine nationalism".....refuse to acknowledge the UK wouldn't have got very far without all the vaccines coming from the EU.
> The UK should be thankful the EU have exported so many vaccines
> 
> As pleased as I am about the UKs progress, I look at the news about the huge rise in cases in France and elsewhere with a great concern....personally I really hope their vaccine factories get on stream very soon.


Hopefully by the summer we should have plenty of vaccines to share with them and the rest of the world. We still seem to be ramping up production in the UK massively, despite many of the new vaccines and factories set to come online after we should have (hopefully) vaccinated everyone in the UK.

I see this as similar to how it works during a plane crash, you should put your lifejacket/mask on first before you help anyone else, even your children... you can't help anyone if you are dying yourself. In my opinion we are quickly coming to the point where we can begin to help other countries much more as we are nearing on most of the vulnerable being vaccinated.


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## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> The last paragraph is actually the difference between remainers and leavers. Remainers believe only the EU can do good things and introduce good regulations, brexiteers want to be able to vote for the people who make the laws and decide which rules we want and don't want



I am sorry, I respectfully say you could not be more wrong.
You have fallen into the trap of political tribalism.

I am no fan of the EU and never have been - I am hugely critical of the structural failings of the Euro, the flaws of the CAP, the economic stagnation of Southern Europe and many other things.


We have always been able to vote for the people who make laws and decide what rules we want and don't want. 
EU membership allowed the UK do carry out its domestic politics as and how it wanted. 
Have a think about all the political decisions over the years made here....how many couldn't we do due to EU membership?


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> Remainers seem to be under some illusion that Boris is going to be Prime Minister forever and we can't vote at the next election for the change we want to see (we can even send a message to politicians when we vote on the 6th May). That could be increase regulations is some areas, lower regulations where we want them



That's sadly untrue.

I live in a 20,000 Tory majority. My vote means nothing. 
Very few people can make any difference......this claim of democracy is very much untrue.

In any case political influence can be wielded by the wealthy by lobbying government or handing out sweeteners....and we have a media pretty much owned by billionaires.


This idea of democracy in the UK is very naive.


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> The last paragraph is actually the difference between remainers and leavers. Remainers believe only the EU can do good things and introduce good regulations, brexiteers want to be able to vote for the people who make the laws and decide which rules we want and don't want.


Absolute nonsense - how could anybody get it so wrong? 
We have _*abandoned*_ our power in Europe to make laws and decide which rules we want or don't want. We will still be subject to EU rules if we want to trade with them but will have no say in their creation.
Though of course there will be negotiation but from a disadvantaged and weakened brexit position


> Remainers seem to be under some illusion that Boris is going to be Prime Minister forever and we can't vote at the next election for the change we want to see (we can even send a message to politicians when we vote on the 6th May). That could be increase regulations is some areas, lower regulations where we want them.


Also nonsense. Whatever the next governments position we still will be in a weakened position in all negotiations with the EU - our largest trading partner. We will have no direct input into any regulations they want to impose, or to their reaction to any regulation we which want to change.

And the question remains unanswered - can anybody point to a brexit benefit affecting us *now*, in contrast to the obvious dis-benefits widely reported (fisherman et al), bearing in mind we had an "oven ready deal", 5 years of planning and negotiations, not to mention the years before the referendum when the issue was being given much thought? 
The answer seems to be absolutely nothing, zero, sweet FA, not a sausage.

That reminds me what happened to the much trumpeted sausage-meat deal with Taiwan?


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

D_W said:


> extrapolation, jacob. Someone who gets titillations out of saying the same thing over and over to the same group is bordering on an oppositional disorder. Especially when they fail to see anything else other than what they're promoting.
> 
> Or my real label - one that got me sent to "time out" in jr high (1 hour of suspension and no class credit). Instigating.
> 
> ...


 You need to free yourself from this "oppositional disorder" delusion. You never know, you could be wrong about some things!
It's an entertaining idea though - opposition as a "disorder". Sinister too - have you read "1984"?
PS or "Catch 22"? First symptom of onset of "oppositional disorder" is believing that people who disagree with you have "oppositional disorders".


----------



## silentsam (7 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I am sorry, I respectfully say you could not be more wrong.
> You have fallen into the trap of political tribalism.
> 
> I am no fan of the EU and never have been - I am hugely critical of the structural failings of the Euro, the flaws of the CAP, the economic stagnation of Southern Europe and many other things.
> ...


I didn't mean to suggest we couldn't make our own laws inside the EU. There are many things we can/did do while in the EU. I was objecting to the suggestion that only the EU can make "good laws" and that the UK would always want to lower standards and rules. They can increase and lower standards and laws BUT they'd get punished at the ballot box if the people didn't like the changes.


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## John Brown (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> I didn't mean to suggest we couldn't make our own laws inside the EU. There are many things we can/did do while in the EU. I was objecting to the suggestion that only the EU can make "good laws" and that the UK would always want to lower standards and rules. They can increase and lower standards and laws BUT they'd get punished at the ballot box if the people didn't like the changes.


Who suggested that? Apart from you...


----------



## silentsam (7 Apr 2021)

John Brown said:


> Who suggested that? Apart from you...



It's been mentioned a bunch of times across both Brexit threads that our rights and standards could be reduced. Jacob upvoted this post but himself has suggested that multiple times.

And RobinBHM mentioned deregulation in the post I quoted.


----------



## John Brown (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> It's been mentioned a bunch of times across both Brexit threads that our rights and standards could be reduced. Jacob upvoted this post but himself has suggested that multiple times.
> 
> And RobinBHM mentioned deregulation in the post I quoted.


I think it's true that deregulation and lowering of standards is the goal of many brexiters, but that's hardly the same as suggesting that only the EU can make good laws. The UK can make good laws, whether they do or will us another question.


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## silentsam (7 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> That's sadly untrue.
> 
> I live in a 20,000 Tory majority. My vote means nothing.
> Very few people can make any difference......this claim of democracy is very much untrue.
> ...


The fact the UK voted for Brexit shows we have democracy. Pretty much all politicians, media, billionaires, world leaders and big companies wanted to remain in the EU.

We do have quite a bit of crony capitalism going on but when "the people" speak they speak loudly. UKIP getting a huge % of the vote share in 2015, the Brexit vote and the public punishing Labour in the polls after the vote should be warnings to politicians not to go against the wishes of the public if they want to keep their jobs after the next election.


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## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> It's been mentioned a bunch of times across both Brexit threads that our rights and standards could be reduced. Jacob upvoted this post but himself has suggested that multiple times.
> 
> And RobinBHM mentioned deregulation in the post I quoted.


"De regulation" has been top of the Brexit agenda from the start, surely you noticed this - all the stuff about getting rid of red tape etc? No suggestion anywhere of improved/better/increased regulation.


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## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> The fact the UK voted for Brexit shows we have democracy. .....


The fact that only 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit with a tiny 4% majority, should also be born in mind.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Apr 2021)

as should the fact that even fewer voted remain.


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## Noel (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> The fact the UK voted for Brexit shows we have democracy. Pretty much all politicians, media, billionaires, world leaders and big companies wanted to remain in the EU.
> 
> We do have quite a bit of crony capitalism going on but when "the people" speak they speak loudly. UKIP getting a huge % of the vote share in 2015, the Brexit vote and the public punishing Labour in the polls after the vote should be warnings to politicians not to go against the wishes of the public if they want to keep their jobs after the next election.



What about the NIP? Where was democracy then? Where was the consent that is a fundamental element of the GFA?


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## silentsam (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> The fact that only 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit with a tiny 4% majority, should also be born in mind.


We don't count the votes of people who don't vote.


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## sploo (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> The fact the UK voted for Brexit shows we have democracy. Pretty much all politicians, media, billionaires, world leaders and big companies wanted to remain in the EU.


....apart from the billionaires that own The Mail, The Sun, and The Express; who have spent years telling the public that the EU are the bogeymen, and that we'd be better off leaving.



silentsam said:


> We do have quite a bit of crony capitalism going on but when "the people" speak they speak loudly. UKIP getting a huge % of the vote share in 2015, the Brexit vote and the public punishing Labour in the polls after the vote should be warnings to politicians not to go against the wishes of the public if they want to keep their jobs after the next election.


Problem is, "the people" were fed a diet of anti-EU propaganda for years, then were presented with a string of attractive sounding claims about how great things would be if we left. None of it was true mind, but that doesn't matter; it worked.

As Aaron Banks said; "_The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally_", and "_We were not above using alternative methods to punch home our message or lead people up the garden path if we had to_".


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## Lons (7 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> That's sadly untrue.
> 
> I live in a 20,000 Tory majority. My vote means nothing.
> Very few people can make any difference......this claim of democracy is very much untrue.
> This idea of democracy in the UK is very naive.



There are/were labour strongholds here in the North East where they could put up a monkey and get it elected with huge majorities, in fact they did!  Some of them got a hell of a shock in the last general election when those areas which had never been anything but labour turned blue overnight, one of the strongest with previous huge majority retained the labour vote only by the skin of his teeth so people can make a difference but only if they really want to and can be bothered to get off their collective backsides and put a cross in the box!


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## sploo (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> The fact that only 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit with a tiny 4% majority, should also be born in mind.


Unfortunately that's not really a valid point in the outcome itself; the percentage turnout was higher than it's been for several general elections, and the rules of the referendum were a simple "winner by most votes". I can criticize the deception of the campaigning, but the reality is that the actual vote was won fair and square by the rules of the referendum.

You could then argue that, as the vote was close, the ambiguity of what had been promised should have lead to a fairly soft Brexit, but as even some who voted for Brexit found - they didn't get what they were expecting (e.g. some of the Brits in Spain getting kicked out). But I guess that was another clever bit of leave campaigning - be sufficiently vague that voters could form their own mental picture of what they were going to "win".


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## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

And the question remains unanswered - can anybody point to a brexit benefit affecting us *now*, in contrast to the obvious dis-benefits widely reported (fisherman et al), bearing in mind we had an "oven ready deal", 5 years of planning and negotiations, not to mention the years before the referendum when the issue was being given much thought?
The answer seems to be absolutely nothing, zero, sweet FA, not a sausage.


----------



## silentsam (7 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> You could then argue that, as the vote was close, the ambiguity of what had been promised should have lead to a fairly soft Brexit, but as even some who voted for Brexit found - they didn't get what they were expecting (e.g. some of the Brits in Spain getting kicked out). But I guess that was another clever bit of leave campaigning - be sufficiently vague that voters could form their own mental picture of what they were going to "win".



It was remain MP's who prevented a soft Brexit. When Theresa May was PM there was plenty of routes to a soft Brexit but remainers instead focused on a second referendum. The two rounds of indicative votes are a good example of that.


----------



## John Brown (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> And the question remains unanswered - can anybody point to a brexit benefit affecting us *now*, in contrast to the obvious dis-benefits widely reported (fisherman et al), bearing in mind we had an "oven ready deal", 5 years of planning and negotiations, not to mention the years before the referendum when the issue was being given much thought?
> The answer seems to be absolutely nothing, zero, sweet FA, not a sausage.


I asked the same thing a while back. A bit of name-calling and some vague stuff about freedom of movement and sovereignty...


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## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

John Brown said:


> I asked the same thing a while back. A bit of name-calling and some vague stuff about freedom of movement and sovereignty...


and not joining the euro - which we weren't going to anyway.
We are entitled to ask - it's been 5 years since the decision, many years before that in the making and latterly the promise of an oven ready deal.
It's happened, we are here, it appears to be stillborn, dead as a dodo. We are now into the post mortem.


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## Ozi (7 Apr 2021)

The votes over guys, those of us who wanted to stay in lost, we need to get over it. Lets try to vote in some decent politicians it can be done. People who can show they have achieved something. Why is MP the only job you can apply for without a CV?

There was a Conservative political broadcast the other night and they are still selling themselves as the party that will keep taxes low! Like it or not we are in for some expensive times, a lot needs to be paid for but we have been bribed before at the expense of increasing social division and they are trying to do it again. Our democracy such as it is gives us what the average person deserves lets try to deserve a bit more and vote as we each see national interest as opposed to self interest - just a thought.


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## John Brown (7 Apr 2021)

Ozi said:


> The votes over guys, those of us who wanted to stay in lost, we need to get over it. Lets try to vote in some decent politicians it can be done. People who can show they have achieved something. Why is MP the only job you can apply for without a CV?
> 
> There was a Conservative political broadcast the other night and they are still selling themselves as the party that will keep taxes low! Like it or not we are in for some expensive times, a lot needs to be paid for but we have been bribed before at the expense of increasing social division and they are trying to do it again. Our democracy such as it is gives us what the average person deserves lets try to deserve a bit more and vote as we each see national interest as opposed to self interest - just a thought.


I accept that those who voted to remain lost, and that includes me. But I don't see why I can't legitimately ask for examples of the benefits.
It's also interesting to observe the "backfire effect" in action.


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## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

Ozi said:


> ..... we need to get over it. ......


Yes I agree, no problem.
Now its time for the post mortem.


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## Chris152 (7 Apr 2021)

Ozi said:


> we need to get over it.


Yes, we're stuck with it for the time being. More worrying is that the conditions that led to it haven't changed - political jingoism that seems to influence the punters in a big way, press that offers propaganda rather than news, social media that corrupts the truth and fabricates 'truths', an education system that does little to encourage scrutiny of information, and a vacuous mass culture that perpetuates dim-wit values and lets people hide from reality. None of it's going to change any time soon.

ps that's my analysis of the state of affairs in general, not directed at how anyone who voted one way or the other in the referendum, lots of reasons for that I'm sure


----------



## sploo (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> It was remain MP's who prevented a soft Brexit. When Theresa May was PM there was plenty of routes to a soft Brexit but remainers instead focused on a second referendum. The two rounds of indicative votes are a good example of that.


Not really sure that's the case. IRC had the Tory hardliners (e.g. the ironically-named ERG) voted for some of the earlier deals they would have got it through.

I remember seeing that great mind Nadine Dorries passionately explaining that she couldn't support Theresa May's deal because it would leave us with "no MEPs, no voice". Both completely correct, and also a staggering facepalm when you think about it.


----------



## silentsam (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> and not joining the euro - which we weren't going to anyway.
> We are entitled to ask - it's been 5 years since the decision, many years before that in the making and latterly the promise of an oven ready deal.
> It's happened, we are here, it appears to be stillborn, dead as a dodo. We are now into the post mortem.



5 years? Come on. 5 years since the vote that politicians didn't like and spent years trying to prevent. It's been a few months since Brexit and in the middle of a pandemic.

We've been in lockdown every day since the implementation period ended.


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## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> 5 years? Come on. 5 years since the vote that politicians didn't like and spent years trying to prevent. It's been a few months since Brexit and in the middle of a pandemic.
> 
> We've been in lockdown every day since the implementation period ended.


Predictable excuses!
It's been talked about for much longer than 5 years but the negotiations started 5 years ago. In any case we are supposed to have had an oven ready deal.
Could rephrase the question - what benefits are you expecting to see, and when?


----------



## silentsam (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Predictable excuses!
> It's been talked about for much longer than 5 years but the negotiations started 5 years ago. In any case we are supposed to have had an oven ready deal.
> Could rephrase the question - what benefits are you expecting to see, and when?


I didn't vote for Brexit. I can see both sides of the argument. I only post here because you keep posting misleading information... you're almost as bad as the Daily Mail.

I'd look like a remainer if there were brexit supporters here posting misinformation.


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## D_W (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> You need to free yourself from this "oppositional disorder" delusion. You never know, you could be wrong about some things!
> It's an entertaining idea though - opposition as a "disorder". Sinister too - have you read "1984"?
> PS or "Catch 22" - could the first symptom of "oppositional disorder" be a belief that it's the others who have "oppositional disorders".



I'll bet you'll argue endlessly over nearly nothing to prove that you're not oppositional at all.


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## paulrbarnard (7 Apr 2021)

Some things are worse. I shipped a set of demo equipment to Germany last week and it required a whole bunch of messing around to send it. We have shipped it back and forth between our offices dozens of times in the last five years. This time they want to charge us import duty on it or lodge 20K for a carnet for it. On top of that they want the new value of the kit declared. Most of it is five years old and fully depreciated on our books. All the parts were sourced in the EU originally and are not changing ownership... This delayed the shipping by three days. Our FAE arived in Germany from the UK yesterday and the kit is all still stuck in German customs. Fortunately she drove her car from the UK to Germany and it is fitted with a full set of test equipment so she is going to have to use that rather than the demo system we intended.
On the positive side she was very impressed to receive an EU stamp in her passport!


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## Lons (7 Apr 2021)

Ozi said:


> Why is MP the only job you can apply for without a CV?


Or qualifications of any kind apart from the ability to avoid the truth and shout loudest. Each of them is presented with a uniform on being elected, it's called a turncoat.


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## Doug B (7 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> .
> 
> 
> Problem is, "the people" were fed a diet of anti-EU propaganda for years, then were presented with a string of attractive sounding claims about how great things would be if we left. None of it was true mind, but that doesn't matter; it worked.


I’d agree with this if it wasn’t for the fact that 3 years after the Brexit vote the party that offered to get Brexit done won the election, by then everyone knew the lies that had been told as the result had been debated ad infinitum.
As @Lons has said areas that were die hard labour went blue overnight it was like a second Brexit vote & again the majority of the voters wanted out.

Personally I’m not political at all I don’t care for any of them but I accept that the majority who could be bothered to vote did so to leave, pointing out the drawbacks won’t solve anything what we need are some decent leaders to make the best of the situation we are now in & to take us forward.


----------



## John Brown (7 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I’d agree with this if it wasn’t for the fact that 3 years after the Brexit vote the party that offered to get Brexit done won the election, by then everyone knew the lies that had been told as the result had been debated ad infinitum.
> As @Lons has said areas that were die hard labour went blue overnight it was like a second Brexit vote & again the majority of the voters wanted out.
> 
> Personally I’m not political at all I don’t care for any of them but I accept that the majority who could be bothered to vote did so to leave, pointing out the drawbacks won’t solve anything what we need are some decent leaders to make the best of the situation we are now in & to take us forward.


Backfire effect again.


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## silentsam (7 Apr 2021)

John Brown said:


> Backfire effect again.


Why isn't it remainers who are suffering from the backfire effect? The vast majority of the things claimed would happen after Brexit haven't happened at all... and we did it at possibly the most difficult time in the last 50 years.


----------



## Gerard Scanlan (7 Apr 2021)

willsie01 said:


> With the way politics are in the U.K. at the moment it could be 47 years before we get rid of despotic governments:
> 
> I personally miss the freedom to work across the EU I had as a contractor. In my working life I had to take advantage of it when there wasn't any work in the U.K. Worked in Italy, Germany and Holland.



I hope that freedom returns one day for you and future generations, living in the UK and EU, knowing and working with your neighbours (countries) enriches everyone involved. Deploying resources and labour where they are needed most makes the world the better place and increases everyone's standard of living.


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## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> Why isn't it remainers who are suffering from the backfire effect? The vast majority of the things claimed would happen after Brexit haven't happened at all... ......


That's what we said would happen - of the brexit promises at least! 
Hence no backfire effect. Glaringly obvious I would have thought.
Meanwhile much of the remoaner pessimism is proving well founded:








Loyalist violence: Dialogue needed with police 'at all levels'


The Policing Board chair calls for a redoubling of efforts to calm loyalist tensions, after recent violence.



www.bbc.co.uk




Not just the inconvenience suffered by exporters or UK workers in Europe, but a major threat to civil order and the union of the UK.


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## John Brown (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> Why isn't it remainers who are suffering from the backfire effect? The vast majority of the things claimed would happen after Brexit haven't happened at all... and we did it at possibly the most difficult time in the last 50 years.


A good point. Certainly lot of remain voters will be subject to the backfire effect. However, I have to repeat that nobody has yet been able to pinpoint any tangible brexit benefit.
As for the claim that you did it at possibly the most difficult time in the last 50 years, did what exactly? Left with no real deal! So what?


----------



## sploo (7 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I’d agree with this if it wasn’t for the fact that 3 years after the Brexit vote the party that offered to get Brexit done won the election, by then everyone knew the lies that had been told as the result had been debated ad infinitum.
> As @Lons has said areas that were die hard labour went blue overnight it was like a second Brexit vote & again the majority of the voters wanted out.


Not convinced about that; I mean, there are certainly people who have changed their minds since the vote (in both directions, to be fair) but a large number still wanted the prizes they'd been promised. I mean, just look at these threads; it's obvious the promises were fantasy, but it's not like there's consensus that leaving was a bad idea.

On the subject of "red" areas going "blue"; it's not as though Corbyn was a vocal remainer, so it's hard to characterise that swing as mainly being a pro-leave statement. A pro "we're tired of this, just do something" statement, maybe.


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## sploo (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> Why isn't it remainers who are suffering from the backfire effect? The vast majority of the things claimed would happen after Brexit haven't happened at all...


You mean like the drop in the value of the pound, the loss of significant bodies (such as the European Medicines Agency), the increased paperwork and barriers to trade, the negative affects on research funding, the loss of UK input into future (EU) rules that will almost certainly still affect us, the rising tensions along the NI/ROI border, the increased possibility of Scottish independence, the increases in recordings of racist attacks, the loss of foreign medical staff who are critical to the NHS, the reduced opportunities for our kids to travel and work freely, the queues of HGVs at the borders, the UK companies being advised to open EU offices to avoid the problems we've caused ourselves, the backdoor introduction of measures to lower food standards and personal rights, and the Brits being kicked out of Spain?


----------



## Noho12C (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Could rephrase the question - what benefits are you expecting to see, and when?



When ? D Raab answered to this question already : _ I think if you take a 10-year view, as well as looking at the short-term risk, which is right to do, actually the growth opportunities in the future are going to come from emerging and developing economies around the world. _

So, just wait 10 years. And people who will loose/are loosing their jobs because their small company cant adjust with this overall mess, well... just tell your bank to stop the mortgage repayments for 10 years. 

Anyway, any potential ill-effect of the brexit will be blamed on covid, so BJ & Co are quite safe for the time being...

As for the benefits ? SOVEREIGNTY !


----------



## Noho12C (7 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> ... the negative affects on research funding...



Funny though, UK has agreed to pay 250 m£ to remain in the European research program. I thought "leave means leave !" but if we can stay a bit for the benefits, well...





__





Science | AAAS







www.sciencemag.org


----------



## sploo (7 Apr 2021)

Noho12C said:


> When ? D Raab answered to this question already : _ I think if you take a 10-year view, as well as looking at the short-term risk, which is right to do, actually the growth opportunities in the future are going to come from emerging and developing economies around the world. _
> 
> So, just wait 10 years. And people who will loose/are loosing their jobs because their small company cant adjust with this overall mess, well... just tell your bank to stop the mortgage repayments for 10 years.
> 
> ...


Raab... Raab.... isn't that the fella who freely admitted he hadn't realised the UK was an island?


----------



## MarkDennehy (7 Apr 2021)

Well, it's not _quite_ as good as paying a bit for all the benefits:


> But he laments the loss of U.K. influence over the program and how the money is spent, because those decisions will only be made by EU countries.


It's not unprecedented - there are sixteen countries doing this.
Same thing is happening with euratom and iter and some other large projects. But things like Galileo (the GPS thing) are now gone and there won't be EU funding to tech startups in the UK under this, the way there is for member states.


----------



## sploo (7 Apr 2021)

Noho12C said:


> Funny though, UK has agreed to pay 250 m£ to remain in the European research program. I thought "leave means leave !" but if we can stay a bit for the benefits, well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if lots of stuff like that happens in the background (i.e. paying individually for bits we want). I suppose you could spin that either way (as a good or bad thing).


----------



## Spectric (7 Apr 2021)

Ozi said:


> There was a Conservative political broadcast the other night and they are still selling themselves as the party that will keep taxes low! Like it or not we are in for some expensive times, a lot needs to be paid for


Yes that is going to be something that we are all going to have to accept, debts have to be paid and we as a country do have a really big debt. But as for forms and form filling is that not something we all have been doing for a long time, forms for this and forms for that and yes the whole system could be simplified but we have too many unemployable people who are only capable of generating forms, and they keep churning them out and changing them for something to do. 
I think we have become a nation of paper managers, we have so many people shuffling forms and paper now compared to people doing actual productive jobs.


----------



## Daniel2 (7 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> You mean like the drop in the value of the pound, the loss of significant bodies (such as the European Medicines Agency), the increased paperwork and barriers to trade, the negative affects on research funding, the loss of UK input into future (EU) rules that will almost certainly still affect us, the rising tensions along the NI/ROI border, the increased possibility of Scottish independence, the increases in recordings of racist attacks, the loss of foreign medical staff who are critical to the NHS, the reduced opportunities for our kids to travel and work freely, the queues of HGVs at the borders, the UK companies being advised to open EU offices to avoid the problems we've caused ourselves, the backdoor introduction of measures to lower food standards and personal rights, and the Brits being kicked out of Spain?



Yeah..... But, apart from that ?
What have the Romans ever done for us ?


----------



## francovendee (7 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Not convinced about that; I mean, there are certainly people who have changed their minds since the vote (in both directions, to be fair) but a large number still wanted the prizes they'd been promised. I mean, just look at these threads; it's obvious the promises were fantasy, but it's not like there's consensus that leaving was a bad idea.
> 
> On the subject of "red" areas going "blue"; it's not as though Corbyn was a vocal remainer, so it's hard to characterise that swing as mainly being a pro-leave statement. A pro "we're tired of this, just do something" statement, maybe.


I think going blue was partly due to the voters not enjoying the high wages and benefits as those in the south. The voters were misled in thinking the same government would suddenly be different from the one already in power for 10 years. 
I think many areas went blue because traditional labour voters didn't vote (Corbyn effect) for labour, not because they all decided to vote Tory.


----------



## D_W (7 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Raab... Raab.... isn't that the fella who freely admitted he hadn't realised the UK was an island?



It's definitely not. It's a university in Kentucky. Blue and white, and England isn't a country - it's an actor, and spelled wrong. Freddy.


----------



## John Brown (7 Apr 2021)

francovendee said:


> I think going blue was partly due to the voters not enjoying the high wages and benefits as those in the south. The voters were misled in thinking the same government would suddenly be different from the one already in power for 10 years.
> I think many areas went blue because traditional labour voters didn't vote (Corbyn effect) for labour, not because they all decided to vote Tory.


I think the Corbyn effect was significant as well. The man should have stepped down long before the election, in my opinion.
I would have said he was totally unelectable, but then along comes Bozo...


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

John Brown said:


> I think the Corbyn effect was significant as well. The man should have stepped down long before the election, in my opinion.
> I would have said he was totally unelectable, but then along comes Bozo...


Corbyn effect was largely a media construction - probably the most vilified politician in recent history. 
On the knocker we asked people why they didn't like Corbyn and 9 times out of 10 they couldn't put their finger on it.
Your expression "totally unelectable" came up a lot but then it would if repeated ad infinitum by all the media at every opportunity. 
Corbyn surprised everybody in 2017 by destroying May's majority - obviously not "totally unelectable" so they made sure it wouldn't happen again.


----------



## John Brown (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Corbyn effect was largely a media construction - probably the most vilified politician in recent history.
> On the knocker we asked people why they didn't like Corbyn and 9 times out of 10 they couldn't put their finger on it.
> Your expression "totally unelectable" came up a lot but then it would if repeated ad infinitum by all the media at every opportunity.
> Corbyn surprised everybody in 2017 by destroying May's majority - obviously not "totally unelectable" so they made sure it wouldn't happen again.


Well I have to differ.
But talking of power, ours is back on again now after a 7 hour cut, so I shall get back to doing normal stuff.


----------



## julianf (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Corbyn effect was largely a media construction - probably the most vilified politician in recent history.



It was a sad spectacle to watch. I mean, the man is clearly against Zionist expansion, as most of the world is, but that alone allowed the media to condition (and this is the sad bit) so many of the population into believing he is an anti-semite.

Whilst at the same time, the blond lad with the fake messy hair is busy talking about hook nosed Arabs etc etc etc.


Im wondering who the new enemy will be. Like the cartoon of the banker stealing all the cookies, the way the conservatives get the working man on side is by convincing him that someone, generally poorer than him, with even less power, is somehow reducing his position.

We have had the people with nothing in boats, rolled in with the EU masters, but how long will that go on for, post brexit, before a new enemy is hatched, rather like the swap between Eurasia and Eastasia, mid speech.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

silentsam said:


> The fact the UK voted for Brexit shows we have democracy


Democracy is illusory in the this country.

People will vote against their best interests as the media shapes the narrative. 

A functioning democray requires an informed public - how can you have that when the media estates are owned by 5 billionaires and the BBC has been politicised by the Tory party.



The vote Leave campaign sold the electorate a Brexit that could never be delivered....and it hasn't, because it doesn't exist.

Here is an example: the fishing community were convinced Brexit would mean they "get back control of fishing".....what has Brexit done? A= the exact opposite, its wrecked their livlehoods because it's taken away control.

You might argue, the fisherman exercised their democratic right by voting to make themselves worse off....but the reality is, they were lied to. Ironically EU funding supported many fishing communities....now all gone. Fishing is not in Tory heartlands and it's not a cash cow for Tory mates.....so fishing is buggered.


----------



## francovendee (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Corbyn effect was largely a media construction - probably the most vilified politician in recent history.
> On the knocker we asked people why they didn't like Corbyn and 9 times out of 10 they couldn't put their finger on it.
> Your expression "totally unelectable" came up a lot but then it would if repeated ad infinitum by all the media at every opportunity.
> Corbyn surprised everybody in 2017 by destroying May's majority - obviously not "totally unelectable" so they made sure it wouldn't happen again.


I never felt he was a bad person but never a leader. He had some good policies but carried to much, possibly unfair, baggage. Sitting on the fence over brexit rather scuppered him for a lot of people. He'd been anti EU for years but wouldn't come out for either side.
Having said that, I think he would have got a better deal with the EU than Boris.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> There are/were labour strongholds here in the North East where they could put up a monkey and get it elected with huge majorities, in fact they did!  Some of them got a hell of a shock in the last general election when those areas which had never been anything but labour turned blue overnight, one of the strongest with previous huge majority retained the labour vote only by the skin of his teeth so people can make a difference but only if they really want to and can be bothered to get off their collective backsides and put a cross in the box!



Unfortunately the problem with FPTP is it means elections are swung on a few marginal seats.

Corbyn seriously weakened the red wall in the 2017 election with many Labour MPs losing much of their majority. 

It's ironic really, the red wall is a region that has been neglected for many decades....due to many many years of neo liberalism and a move from industrial to financial services. And the red wall voted for the party whose ideology caused their regions neglect. 

I would love to see this country levelling up, the Tory party have made it a manifesto promise....were they just buying voters or will it happen? I really can't see Brexit doing much levelling up.


----------



## Lons (7 Apr 2021)

francovendee said:


> I never felt he was a bad person but never a leader. He had some good policies but carried to much, possibly unfair, baggage. Sitting on the fence over brexit rather scuppered him for a lot of people. He'd been anti EU for years but wouldn't come out for either side.
> Having said that, I think he would have got a better deal with the EU than Boris.


Sat on the fence for so long he had a permanent groove side to side across his backside. I note that Jacob is still trying to spin for him on the forums despite the fact he's out of the picture.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

julianf said:


> It was a sad spectacle to watch. I mean, the man is clearly against Zionist expansion, as most of the world is, but that alone allowed the media to condition (and this is the sad bit) so many of the population into believing he is an anti-semite



Corbyn and momentum worked hard to expunge moderates from Labour. The moderates faught back....and anti semitism was the weapon they used. 
Corbyn wasn't anti Semitic, but he was ideologically opposed to Israels wealth created by capitalism.


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> Sat on the fence for so long he had a permanent groove side to side across his backside. I note that Jacob is still trying to spin for him on the forums despite the fact he's out of the picture.


I didn't bring Corbyn up! I notice you are still stirring against him yourself despite the fact that he's out of the picture.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> Sat on the fence for so long he had a permanent groove side to side across his backside. I note that Jacob is still trying to spin for him on the forums despite the fact he's out of the picture.


The irony is that both the hard right and hard left were both opposed to EU membership.

But Corbyn couldn't campaign for a hard Brexit because that was identical to the other side.....so Corbyn went for fence sitting, trying to appease leavers and remainers and managed to upset both.


----------



## powertools (7 Apr 2021)

I well remember on the on the last now long gone Brexit thread many people mocking how few trade deals the UK had arranged at the time. Anybody wish to comment on the situation now that has been done at a time when the whole world is in the grip of a pandemic?


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Corbyn and momentum worked hard to expunge moderates from Labour.


Really? I saw nothing like that at all. Who did they expunge? Nobody as far as I know, they didn't even try. If anything he should have taken a much stronger line, especially after the chicken coup.


> The moderates faught back....and anti semitism was the weapon they used.
> Corbyn wasn't anti Semitic, but he was ideologically opposed to Israels wealth created by capitalism.


Not true at all! The moderates weren't even under attack! The big issue was Palestine. Still is. Any comment on Palestine gets a mega reaction.
That's what's interesting about this forum - here we have several surprising notions expressed by Robin the likes of which which I've never heard from any other source!


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> I well remember on the on the last now long gone Brexit thread many people mocking how few trade deals the UK had arranged at the time. Anybody wish to comment on the situation now that has been done at a time when the whole world is in the grip of a pandemic?


Sadly the UK hasn't negotiated a single trade deal.
Every single deal has been an EU rollover deal.

The Japan deal was lauded at the time as a wonderful deal....but scrutinising the detail, it turns out it was 95% cut and paste EU deal and the improvements over the EU deal are largely in Japan's favour.

One of the key selling points of the Brexit campaign was the claim of "new trade opportunities" ....well those haven't arisen.

An important point is this: something like 70% of our trade is: EU, USA, China.....given that the UK now only has a GDP of $3 trillion.....so it has zero leverage to get preferential terms....as EU negotiations proved.


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## Spectric (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> On the knocker we asked people why they didn't like Corbyn and 9 times out of 10 they couldn't put their finger on it.



That may just have been because they wanted to be polite or that the required words were not in our current vocabulary.



RobinBHM said:


> But Corbyn couldn't campaign for a hard Brexit because that was identical to the other side.....so Corbyn went for fence sitting, trying to appease leavers and remainers and managed to upset both.



Corbyn upset everyone, no one really knew what his stance really was and that he would only reveal it after wining the election which he lost. There is something odd in politics these days and brexit has only highlighted the division and issues the system is facing. Labour has been going nowhere since Blair, whats the Blair saying, lost 2 I won 3 and lost 3. 

I just found out that there is still a LD party, I thought they had disbanded after there last pointless attempt in an election but just shows politics has a place for chocolate teapots.


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Sadly the UK hasn't negotiated a single trade deal.
> .......


The "oven ready deal" was a blatant lie and they'd failed absolutely to negotiate anything at all in the preceding 5 years. It's now a question of whom/what to blame, which will be Covid of course, and the EU, and all the usual suspects, mostly foreigners!


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Really? I saw nothing like that at all. Who did they expunge? Nobody as far as I know, they didn't even try. If anything he should have taken a much stronger line, especially after the chicken coup.Not true at all! The moderates weren't even under attack! The big issue was Palestine. Still is. Any comment on Palestine gets a mega reaction.
> That's what's interesting about this forum - here we have several surprising notions expressed by Robin the likes of which which I've never heard from any other source!



You've never heard it from any other source?









Momentum’s purge of the ‘Blairites’


And so it begins. For the past two years talk of deselection battles between Labour moderates and the hard left has been just that. Now the talk is turning into




www.thetimes.co.uk












Jeremy Corbyn's allies' secret plot to axe up to 50 moderate Labour MPs and replace with hard lefties


AS many as 50 Labour MPs are on a de-selection hit-list drawn up by leftist supporters of Jeremy Corbyn, it has been claimed. Moderate Labour MPs have been warned that Corbyn’s allies want ce…




www.thesun.co.uk












70 Labour MPs face deselection threat before next general election


MPs have until Monday to inform the Labour executive whether they intend to stand in the next election, opening up the prospect of 'trigger ballots'




inews.co.uk






https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-mps-face-fresh-deselection-threat-as-momentum-pushes-for-party-conference-rule-change_uk_5b4f8560e4b0fd5c73c1925c










Is there a hard-left “purge of moderates” going on in the Labour Party? – LabourList


An incendiary splash in today's Times has brought to the fore what some in Labour have long claimed is going on below the radar: a…




labourlist.org


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> You've never heard it from any other source?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Times, Sun, Labourlist, all campaigning against Corbyn. Independent simply incorrect - nobody was purged. As I said there was a massive ***t stirring attack on Corbyn from the media and every direction possible.
Repeat: nobody was purged at all. Not one. It was not true.
Personally I think some should have been. No doubt Momentum was plotting and not surprising considering the various failed coup/sabotage attempts. 
De- and re-selection is a normal democratic process anyway, in all parties. But nothing significant came of it 2017 or 2019


----------



## NormanB (7 Apr 2021)

Noho12C said:


> The Pfizer vaccine was (mostly) funded by the EU, yet EU has exported 13 millions doses to the UK.
> 
> The big issue here is the UK government blaming "vaccine nationalism", yet they have a contract that prevent any export until they have a full vaccination. Isnt that vaccine nationalism ?
> 
> The pot calling the kettle black...


Pfizer would disagree with your finance assessment.


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## Noho12C (7 Apr 2021)

NormanB said:


> Pfizer would disagree with your finance assessment.


Well, not BioNTech ...


----------



## Lons (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I didn't bring Corbyn up! I notice you are still stirring against him yourself despite the fact that he's out of the picture.



_*Corbyn effect was largely a media construction - probably the most vilified politician in recent history.*_
*On the knocker we asked people why they didn't like Corbyn and 9 times out of 10 they couldn't put their finger on it.
Your expression "totally unelectable" came up a lot but then it would if repeated ad infinitum by all the media at every opportunity.*
_*Corbyn surprised everybody in 2017 by destroying May's majority - obviously not "totally unelectable" so they made sure it wouldn't happen again. *_

*Really! *
Your post *290 at 18.06 today where I notice not only Corbyn mentioned twice but you just carry on ad ifinitum, I suggest it might be quicker for you to just look back on your posts and copy and paste. Maybe that's what you're doing already.


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> _*Corbyn effect was largely a media construction - probably the most vilified politician in recent history.*_
> *On the knocker we asked people why they didn't like Corbyn and 9 times out of 10 they couldn't put their finger on it.
> Your expression "totally unelectable" came up a lot but then it would if repeated ad infinitum by all the media at every opportunity.*
> _*Corbyn surprised everybody in 2017 by destroying May's majority - obviously not "totally unelectable" so they made sure it wouldn't happen again. *_
> ...


As I said - I didn't bring Corbyn up. If you look back even further you will find the original poster. 
But so what anyway we are all grown up here - or trying to be!


----------



## Lons (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> As I said - I didn't bring Corbyn up. If you look back even further you will find the original poster.
> But so what anyway we are all grown up here - or trying to be!


No-ne would have mentioned Corbyn if you hadn't engineered your way into another political thread so have fun Jacob, your favourite ramblings clearly are what keep you going, and going, and going....................  
I'd forgotten all about Jezza until he got back on the agenda, I'll just stick him back into the realms of distant memory where he belongs.


----------



## Jacob (7 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> .....
> I'd forgotten all about Jezza until he got back on the agenda, I'll just stick him back into the realms of distant memory where he belongs.


Right ho you do that! 
I rather got the impression you were trying to get a discussion going about (sh you know who)


----------



## Lons (7 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Right ho you do that!
> I rather got the impression you were trying to get a discussion going about (sh you know who)


I wasn't trying to get a discussing going about anyone just a serious dejavu when I read your posts, but hey ho if that's how you get your jollies then good for you.
There's only one person with a hidden agenda on this thread and that's the guy who started it.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

What was this thread about


----------



## Jake (7 Apr 2021)

planesleuth said:


> I started to read this thread but then fell asleep. Comments here are as bad as to be found on the BBC news. Full of 'experts' trying to score better points than the previous 'expert'. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.



You sound like the expert on experts.


----------



## Spectric (7 Apr 2021)

You are all missing a fundamental point and that is you can always tell if a politician is lying because their lips move.


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## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

fixit45 said:


> EU which is top heavy with rules and regulations


Actually the EU has gone further than any other trade bloc in harmonising standards in order to remove trade barriers.

The Single Market removes red tape. Brexit brings it back.


----------



## RobinBHM (7 Apr 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Lucky? What a world you live in.


Yes lucky.

EU pharmas have exported 88million vaccines, including 10 million to UK.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (8 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Actually the EU has gone further than any other trade bloc in harmonising standards in order to remove trade barriers.
> 
> The Single Market removes red tape. Brexit brings it back.


The Single Market removes red tape _within the single market. _It adds lots and lots of protectionist red red tape for countries outside the single market. The UK can now negotiate better terms, because the UK no longer needs to protect Italian agricultural manufacturing, Spanish food exports, German car manufacturing etc. It may take some time.


----------



## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> It adds lots and lots of protectionist red red tape for countries outside the single market


That is a typical dishonest Brexit argument as it avoids real world comparison. 

Now please try and make an honest point: let's see you compare EU red tape with other countries, say USA.
By the way harmonised rules of the Single Market are a benefit for exporters, it means they can send goods to an of 27 countries in the EU and follow one set of rules.

And don't forget, the EU rule book is built from industry standards


----------



## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> The UK can now negotiate better terms, because the UK no longer needs to protect Italian agricultural manufacturing, Spanish food exports, German car manufacturing etc



1 German car manufacturing....untrue because UK biggest export market for cars is EU. By the way do you think German car manufacturers that export to USA need to make to USA standards?

2. Sure UK can lower tariffs on olives and oranges....big deal. That's a minute benefit compared to the cost of Brexit red tape: sanitary and phytosanitary controls, customs declarations, transit documents. 

3. The UK can't negotiate better terms, it hasn't done so with any of its trade deals and in any case the UK has no leverage to negotiate better terms. 70% of UKs trade is with EU, USA, China....let's see you argue how the UK will negotiate "better terms"

4. When UK was an EU member it already benefitted from preferential trade deals with many countries.....this Brexit claim of an amazing new opportunity was never true, it was a Brexit smoke and mirrors fallacy.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (8 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> ......
> 
> 4. When UK was an EU member it already benefitted from preferential trade deals with many countries.....this Brexit claim of an amazing new opportunity was never true, it was a Brexit smoke and mirrors fallacy.



Just a factual correction - before the end of the transition period, the UK negotiated reciprocal trade deals mirroring the advantages it enjoyed whilst in the EU with all the countries with which the EU had trade deals - 74 of them, from memory. Some were very small, some (Japan, for example) quite significant.

New negotiations are focusing on two major areas, the Trans Pacific Partnership, and CANZUK. The partial aim is to make the countries involved less dependent on China, but there is also the obvious benefit of freer trade with those countries.

That, by the way, is one of the benefits of leaving the EU. The latter seems more interested in appeasing China rather than looking for international cooperation to curb it's influence, the UK (now independent) is able to build international cooperation. It was reported last week that Biden wants to do similar, and that Johnson wants to use the UK chairmanship of the G7 to discuss other ways to address the China question.


----------



## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> ....., the UK (now independent) is able to build international cooperation......


So you see a possibility that we might be building nuclear power stations for the Chinese instead of vice versa, now we are not held back by the EU?   

You don't build international cooperation by choosing not to cooperate with the nations nearest to you.
The UK was "independent" before Brexit, but was cooperating with our nearest neighbours. The EU _*was*_ "international cooperation".


----------



## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> That, by the way, is one of the benefits of leaving the EU. The latter seems more interested in appeasing China rather than looking for international cooperation to curb it's influence, the UK (now independent) is able to build international cooperation. It was reported last week that Biden wants to do similar, and that Johnson wants to use the UK chairmanship of the G7 to discuss other ways to address the China question.


Boris Piccaninny Watermelon-Smile Kenyan-Heritage De-Spunkwaffle "Johnson" and "International cooperation" in the same paragraph. Do I really need to explain why that's both hilarious and deeply depressing?


----------



## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> That may just have been because they wanted to be polite or that the required words were not in our current vocabulary.


The media inculcated a conditioned reflex which turned people against Corbyn with all those familiar expressions "not leadership material" "unelectable" "IRA/terrorist supporter" etc etc.
On the door step when asked how or why, they couldn't explain, they looked bemused or simply got angrier


> Corbyn upset everyone, .......


as a result of the most intense media vilification of a politician in memory.
They weren't so upset in 2017 before the anti Corbyn frenzy had kicked in and he came close to gaining power, so the media went into overdrive before the 2019 election.
They still are kicking Corbyn - they obviously feel he is still a threat to the establishment, not least because of the total failure of Starmer to make any impression at all. 
Remember Theresa May's "we will not let it happen". "We" meant not the tories but the whole establishment. A glimpse into the abyss!
Corbyn is history - though the whole story has yet to be told. Starmer will be history very soon and be completely forgotten!


----------



## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> The Single Market removes red tape _within the single market. _It adds lots and lots of protectionist red red tape for countries outside the single market. The UK can now negotiate better terms, because the UK no longer needs to protect Italian agricultural manufacturing, Spanish food exports, German car manufacturing etc. It may take some time.


Even if this was true you have missed the obvious point that the UK must now negotiate _*worse*_ terms with its main export market the EU, and won't be a partner with the powerful EU when it negotiates it own terms with the rest of the world.
Double whammy, shots in both feet! How silly can this get?


----------



## Phill05 (8 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> And the question remains unanswered - can anybody point to a brexit benefit affecting us *now*, in contrast to the obvious dis-benefits widely reported (fisherman et al), bearing in mind we had an "oven ready deal", 5 years of planning and negotiations, not to mention the years before the referendum when the issue was being given much thought?
> The answer seems to be absolutely nothing, zero, sweet FA, not a sausage.



Putting this into plain perspective, how can anyone expect something to happen NOW!! this month this year, if someone comes up with an idea it takes time to negotiate, it takes time to plan a design, it then takes time to put into practice, what if you come across a problem no one thought of in the negotiations and planning stage do you still expect things to happen NOW!!, Give it a chance to work.


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## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> Putting this into plain perspective, how can anyone expect something to happen NOW!! this month this year, if someone comes up with an idea it takes time to negotiate,.....


*It's been negotiated for five years now, we've burned our bridges and left, but we are still waiting for people to come up with ideas?  *
In the brexit camp a lot of thought must have been put in even before that.
We were told there was an oven ready deal....we were told all would be quick and easy.....and so on.
*We are at the end of the process not the beginning* - so show us what we have gained.
If nothing yet, then what are we likely to gain, not in vague waffly terms about "deals with the Pacific rim" (a lot further away than Calais) but in real terms of the effect on you and me?

Let's face it - it's as dead as a dodo, a mega mistake, complete nonsense.


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## Trainee neophyte (8 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> won't be a partner with the powerful EU when it negotiates it own terms


Which is my point - uk won't have to take into account all the European special interests, and can work on its own special interests instead. But in your world, you are all going to die poverty stricken and desolate because without the EU, the UK is nothing.

Life is what you make of it, I always find.


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> Putting this into plain perspective, how can anyone expect something to happen NOW!! this month this year, if someone comes up with an idea it takes time to negotiate, it takes time to plan a design, it then takes time to put into practice, what if you come across a problem no one thought of in the negotiations and planning stage do you still expect things to happen NOW!!, Give it a chance to work.


Problem is; we've already left - so that's like telling someone who's jumped out of a plane to be patient; we'll have the parachute ready in a while.

That would be an unfair criticism if we'd been unexpectedly flung into this position, but we haven't; we were repeatedly told how a deal would be "one of the easiest in human history", and all warnings that it wasn't realistic (by people who actually had experience in negotiating international trade deals) were batted away as Project Fear.

Even if we're positive and say, ok, it'll take time, but we'll get things sorted - the problem is that we are inherently negotiating from a weaker position (due to being a smaller individual market).

TN pointed out that we could negotiate better terms because we don't need to jointly consider the needs of (EU) partners. I suppose there's some logic to that, but I rather suspect that the costs and downsides of those joint compromises will be insignificant vs the losses incurred due to being unable to negotiate terms as favourable as we had previously. International trade negotiations are cut-throat and slow; there's little room for sentiment. It's pretty much inevitable that in any negotiations with a large bloc (EU, USA, China) we would be the much weaker party, and in no position to dictate terms.


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Which is my point - uk won't have to take into account all the European special interests, and can work on its own special interests instead. But in your world, you are all going to die poverty stricken and desolate because without the EU, the UK is nothing.
> 
> Life is what you make of it, I always find.


But you only get your own special interests if you have sufficient power in a negotiating position to be able to demand them as part of a deal; something which may be quite unlikely given the relative market size of the UK vs the other large trading blocs.

We're not going to die poverty stricken, but we have put up significant barriers to trade with our nearest and largest trading bloc; in order to possibly, at some point, maybe, sign new deals with smaller trading partners thousands of miles from our own market, whilst doing so from a smaller/weaker position. It's not a great pitch really.


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## Lons (8 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> What was this thread about


The sceptics among us will have noted that the thread was started just as the polling notification cards were being sent out for the May elections and the beginning of political TV broadcasts. Link that to the OP and you have your answer.


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## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> The sceptics among us will have noted that the thread was started just as the polling notification cards were being sent out for the May elections and the beginning of political TV broadcasts. Link that to the OP and you have your answer.


 
This thread was started the day I got a bit frustrated trying to send an oil stone to the channel islands!


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## Phill05 (8 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Problem is; we've already left - so that's like telling someone who's jumped out of a plane to be patient; we'll have the parachute ready in a while.



Yes we have left but unlike jumping out of a plane for that there is only one way down, for us now it's time to make something happen be patient and let them work at it and get sorted and head to being Great again we can do it.


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## MIGNAL (8 Apr 2021)

Well I can assure everyone on here that leaving the EU has really put a serious dent in my finances, such that I don't think I have any option but to call it a day and end my self employment (since 2006). It's the VAT charges that have been imposed, which effectively makes for a 20% increase in my prices. That's a substantial hike. I've lost £7,000 of orders since January. That's the only 'orders' that I've received this year. Yes there will be others from the UK and the US but they won't make up for the loss. 
It's back to house bashing, complete with my dodgy back. I'm thinking of drilling holes all along the bottom of peoples houses and filling them in with chemical sht. Whilst I'm at it I'll drill a few small holes in their woodwork and tell them they have a huge anobium punctatum issue that needs resolving immediately otherwise their floors will collapse. £££££££ - great Brexit dividend for me! I'm now a big fan of that undertaker chap who sits in the HoC.


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> Yes we have left but unlike jumping out of a plane for that there is only one way down, for us now it's time to make something happen be patient and let them work at it and get sorted and head to being Great again we can do it.


I admire your optimism, but when the people who are supposed to be making something (great) happen are the ones who encouraged us to take this path in the first place, and promised (but completely failed) to deliver something great (well, anything at all really)... let's just say that I feel slightly less trusting of their competence.


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## Phill05 (8 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> I admire your optimism, but when the people who are supposed to be making something (great) happen are the ones who encouraged us to take this path in the first place, and promised (but completely failed) to deliver something great (well, anything at all really)... let's just say that I feel slightly less trusting of their competence.



I am pretty sure most of us will have promised to do something or make something and had to let someone down at sometime, I know I have but I don't sit with my head in my hands moaning about it I get out and make a better job next time.
If you have lost some work or income from Brexit or Covid you get out and find something else you can do.


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## Lons (8 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> This thread was started the day I got a bit frustrated trying to send an oil stone to the channel islands!


The other leg has bells on.


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> I am pretty sure most of us will have promised to do something or make something and had to let someone down at sometime, I know I have but I don't sit with my head in my hands moaning about it I get out and make a better job next time.
> If you have lost some work or income from Brexit or Covid you get out and find something else you can do.


Yea... but there's a small difference between anything you or I will have likely screwed up during our lives, vs disconnecting the fifth largest economy in the world from one of the largest trading blocs in the world, as a result of promising a load of things we knew probably weren't true.

It's like equating accidentally stepping on a bug to being a mass murderer.


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## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> I am pretty sure most of us will have promised to do something or make something and had to let someone down at sometime, I know I have but I don't sit with my head in my hands moaning about it I get out and make a better job next time.
> ....


Yep thats what we want the govt to do - face up to the mess, give up the delusions, admit to the failure and move on. And not use Covid as an excuse.


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## Phill05 (8 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yep thats what we want the govt to do - face up to the mess, give up the delusions, admit to the failure and move on. And not use Covid as an excuse.



You don't have to have someone admit to failure or delusions to get out of a mess just be patient move on or do something about it yourself.


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> You don't have to have someone admit to failure or delusions to get out of a mess just be patient move on or do something about it yourself.


I'm going to promise to wash and wax your car for free, but instead I'll nick it, claim I've done nothing wrong, then tell you to be patient and move on.

(I'm joking, but you get my point?)


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## Noel (8 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> You don't have to have someone admit to failure or delusions to get out of a mess just be patient move on or do something about it yourself.



So how do you profess to get out of the mess of the NIP and the last 10 days of violence?


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## thomashenry (8 Apr 2021)

I thought a tariff free agreement had been agreed? Funny, as I just had to pay £37 import fees for a gift, (value £60) that I sent to Spain.


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## partsandlabour (8 Apr 2021)

It's a shower of ..... Believe me. I have to bring stuff in from the EU and ship out. The customs hassle is an absolute choke on business from both ends. If you fancy a career change and don't mind admin, then customs brokering is a growing industry, helping companies navigate this mess. P****d off beyond belief at the Brexiteer ****wits who didn't have the foresight to see this coming. Muppets.


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## MarkDennehy (8 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> So how do you profess to get out of the mess of the NIP and the last 10 days of violence?


I was rather wondering if, amidst all the comments on how people should "move on" (always a well-received suggestion, as I'm sure we've all experienced in our lives), someone would point out that a part of the UK is currently *literally on fire* amidst almost two weeks of street violence as a direct result of how the outcome of the brexit vote has been handled, with the head of local government there meeting with the paramilitary terrorist groups (no, not the IRA, the other side, the Unionist terrorist groups who never handed in their weapons and who are still active despite the GFA), but _not_ meeting with the head of the PSNI to discuss the problem. 

I mean, lads, there's "get on with it" as rhetoric and there's actually getting on with the job, and it'd be nice if someone would do that _before_ the likes of Sammy Wilson points men with high explosives towards the ROI as a scapegoat as has happened in the past. 

This is, after all, *your country*. It's not some far-off distant land, the people running the place (half of them at any rate, and including the incumbent first minister) sit in the House of Commons and they hold those lovely new blue passports.


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## Noel (8 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> I was rather wondering if, amidst all the comments on how people should "move on" (always a well-received suggestion, as I'm sure we've all experienced in our lives), someone would point out that a part of the UK is currently *literally on fire* amidst almost two weeks of street violence as a direct result of how the outcome of the brexit vote has been handled, with the head of local government there meeting with the paramilitary terrorist groups (no, not the IRA, the other side, the Unionist terrorist groups who never handed in their weapons and who are still active despite the GFA), but _not_ meeting with the head of the PSNI to discuss the problem.
> 
> I mean, lads, there's "get on with it" as rhetoric and there's actually getting on with the job, and it'd be nice if someone would do that _before_ the likes of Sammy Wilson points men with high explosives towards the ROI as a scapegoat as has happened in the past.
> 
> This is, after all, *your country*. It's not some far-off distant land, the people running the place (half of them at any rate, and including the incumbent first minister) sit in the House of Commons and they hold those lovely new blue passports.



It's ok Mark, Johnson has voiced, sorry Tweeted, his concern, only took him 11 days. A night of disturbances in Bristol and he's talking about it within hours.



_I am deeply concerned by the scenes of violence in Northern Ireland, especially attacks on PSNI who are protecting the public and businesses, attacks on a bus driver and the assault of a journalist. The way to resolve differences is through dialogue, not violence or criminality. 9:33 PM · Apr 7, 2021 _
Replies to his words interesting...


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> _"I am deeply concerned by the scenes of violence in Northern Ireland, especially attacks on PSNI who are protecting the public and businesses, attacks on a bus driver and the *assault of a journalist*. The way to resolve differences is through dialogue, not violence or criminality"_


That last bit is almost amusing, given Boris has, how shall I put it... "prior experience" in this area.

Anyway. Props to the guy on Twitter who's responded simply with; "_this is directly on you, and the cavalcade of c***s who ride with you_"


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## Noel (8 Apr 2021)

thomashenry said:


> I thought a tariff free agreement had been agreed? Funny, as I just had to pay £37 import fees for a gift, (value £60) that I sent to Spain.



As I said elsewhere, Trade agreements and customs are two separate entities - trade agreements help with the flow of goods, customs protect that flow of goods. Tariffs are part of a trade agreement rather than customs.


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## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> _......The way to resolve differences is through dialogue, not violence or criminality. ......._


Sounds familiar, didn't J Corbyn say the same when he was accused of terrorist sympathising?
As for moving on, getting over it etc Johnson, Farage, Banks and co will be doing just that, with little inconvenience to themselves, possibly laughing all the way to the bank
Will Johnson be visiting NI for dialogue? Very unlikely I think.


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## MIGNAL (8 Apr 2021)

partsandlabour said:


> It's a shower of ..... Believe me. I have to bring stuff in from the EU and ship out. The customs hassle is an absolute choke on business from both ends. If you fancy a career change and don't mind admin, then customs brokering is a growing industry, helping companies navigate this mess. P****d off beyond belief at the Brexiteer ****wits who didn't have the foresight to see this coming. Muppets.



Wait until the full checks coming in from the EU kick in. At the moment they are largely having a free shot at the UK. . . . but we took back control.


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## Spectric (8 Apr 2021)

The EU is not the centre of commerce on planet earth, if you are getting issues when dealing with them then find another source and perhaps at some point they will need to smooth things out when they realise that they are losing exports.


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## MIGNAL (8 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> The EU is not the centre of commerce on planet earth, if you are getting issues when dealing with them then find another source and perhaps at some point they will need to smooth things out when they realise that they are losing exports.



LOL!! Have you actually read the thread and the people on here who actually have real world experience of exporting? It's a complete mess but none of this was supposed to happen, we held all the cards, remember?


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## MarkDennehy (8 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> The EU is not the centre of commerce on planet earth, if you are getting issues when dealing with them then find another source and perhaps at some point they will need to smooth things out when they realise that they are losing exports.


Well, to be fair, you do eat too much beef. I mean, we all do, and not just from the climate change point of view, but just from the general balanced diet point of view, we all eat too much meat in "The West" even in comparison to a few hundred years ago (which in evolutionary terms, is now, it's so short a space of time). 
So when 35% of your beef (which comes from the EU, primarily from Ireland) encounters supply issues, then buying beef imported from the US (which has.... some issues) or further afield, which will raise the price due to the sheer logistical issues involved, will have an ultimately good effect on you because you'll be healthier for the reduction in consumption. 

Pictured: minor logistical issues


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## Noel (8 Apr 2021)

@MarkDennehy 

He's sent his useless SoS Lewis who will achieve nothing, at best. You know, the guy who said in January 2021, and I quote:

_There is no ‘Irish Sea Border’. As we have seen today, the important preparations the Govt and businesses have taken to prepare for the end of the Transition Period are keeping goods flowing freely around the country, including between GB and NI._


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## Spectric (8 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> Well, to be fair, you do eat too much beef. I mean, we all do, and not just from the climate change point of view, but just from the general balanced diet point of view, we all eat too much meat in "The West" even in comparison to a few hundred years ago (which in evolutionary terms, is now, it's so short a space of time).


Well having been vegetarian for over thirty five years I am leading the way, we need to cut out the cattle, then we don't need to grow food to feed them and we grow it to feed ourselves directly. The problem is that too many people may fear the virus but are addicted to eating rubbish from takeaways that will lead to medical complications eventually anyway.


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## MarkDennehy (8 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Well having been vegetarian for over thirty five years I am leading the way, we need to cut out the cattle, then we don't need to grow food to feed them and we grow it to feed ourselves directly. The problem is that too many people may fear the virus but are addicted to eating rubbish from takeaways that will lead to medical complications eventually anyway.


This is excellent news, and with the increased demand for people to do manual harvesting of crops (something that sadly has been very effectively resistant to machines with the exception of a few specialised crops like wheat and corn in large monocrops), there's now an opportunity to not only have a healthier diet, but to also get more physical exercise and build up your general health even more. It's a truly exciting opportunity and I think it will work out very well for everyone in the long run, it should be an excellent future for all!


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## sploo (8 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> This is excellent news, and with the increased demand for people to do manual harvesting of crops (something that sadly has been very effectively resistant to machines with the exception of a few specialised crops like wheat and corn in large monocrops), there's now an opportunity to not only have a healthier diet, but to also get more physical exercise and build up your general health even more. It's a truly exciting opportunity and I think it will work out very well for everyone in the long run, it should be an excellent future for all!


This is a good point, and I guess there's the added opportunity to expend extra calories by ducking petrol bombs. Available only in areas that definitely don't have a border down the Irish Sea, obviously.


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## Chris152 (8 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> Yes we have left but unlike jumping out of a plane for that there is only one way down, for us now it's time to make something happen be patient and let them work at it and get sorted and head to being Great again we can do it.


Given the situation the UK is in, between the damage we've clearly done to trade with our European neighbours and a woefully mismanaged pandemic that's caused disproportionate damage to our economy, I'd think your view over-optimistic. I guess lots of people share it, but to my mind that's a failure to understand the UK's historical trajectory, which is one of decline. I think much of the UK (Ingerland in particular) suffers from a collective consciousness/ delusion that can't engage reality, and therefore is blind to where we're headed. Johnson's ridiculous optimism (clearly a charade) is directed to encourage this illusion as it serves his political and financial ends. Like a ship of fools that's been holed.


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## Cabinetman (8 Apr 2021)

Chris152 said:


> Given the situation the UK is in, between the damage we've clearly done to trade with our European neighbours and a woefully mismanaged pandemic that's caused disproportionate damage to our economy, I'd think your view over-optimistic. I guess lots of people share it, but to my mind that's a failure to understand the UK's historical trajectory, which is one of decline. I think much of the UK (Ingerland in particular) suffers from a collective consciousness/ delusion that can't engage reality, and therefore is blind to where we're headed. Johnson's ridiculous optimism (clearly a charade) is directed to encourage this illusion as it serves his political and financial ends. Like a ship of fools that's been holed.


 Just opened this thread to see what it was about and this has got to be the most miserably pessimistic defeatist attitude I have come across for years. Don’t bother replying I shan’t be back.


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## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Just opened this thread to see what it was about and this has got to be the most miserably pessimistic defeatist attitude I have come across for years. Don’t bother replying I shan’t be back.


It was the miserably pessimistic defeatist attitude of the brexitters which set it off; they simply gave up on the creative possibilities offered by the EU and the potential of our power and influence from within. Exchanged for a feeble fantasy about independence and reviving the British Empire.
Nobody knew for sure, it was possible we remoaners would be proved wrong but it's looking very unlikely!
Have we sorted out those fiendish Chinese yet? - 5 years of negotiations and the oven ready deal should have done it? Does anybody know how to get to the Pacific Rim from Dover? Further than Calais I imagine.


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## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> New negotiations are focusing on two major areas, the Trans Pacific Partnership, and CANZUK. The partial aim is to make the countries involved less dependent on China, but there is also the obvious benefit of freer trade with those countries


I've studied the detail on both of these.

1 CANZUK
The major problem with it is that it doesn't exist.
Would it have any benefits over EU membership? Unlikely, EU has a trade deal with Canada and is negotiating currently with Aust and NZ.

2. CPTPP
EU has or is negotiating free trade deals with nine of the 11 countries in the CPTPP already

Will it compensate for the trade we do with the EU? No
EU membership has meant the UK has been a gateway to Europe, encouraging a great deal of FDI....will it replace that? No

There are concerns that China might join and the UK could end up with a trade deal,with China by the backdoor

New Zealand launching a public consultation on new accessions to the CPTPP, which said that new members will need to comply with the existing agreement. That would mean the UK would be a rule taker not maker.

And there is a real problem with divergence of standards from those we currently have with our biggest trade partner, the EU and having to lower standards and open up the country to cheap agri imports undercutting UK farmers.


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## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> This is excellent news, and with the increased demand for people to do manual harvesting of crops (something that sadly has been very effectively resistant to machines with the exception of a few specialised crops like wheat and corn in large monocrops), there's now an opportunity to not only have a healthier diet, but to also get more physical exercise and build up your general health even more. It's a truly exciting opportunity and I think it will work out very well for everyone in the long run, it should be an excellent future for all!


It could mean taking back the land though.  Is that what Johnson has in mind with his favourite promise about "levelling up" - he's been reading about the levellers?


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## Chris152 (8 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> Just opened this thread to see what it was about and this has got to be the most miserably pessimistic defeatist attitude I have come across for years. Don’t bother replying I shan’t be back.


That's up to you. I'm a professional historian, watched this stuff for many years. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's watching carefully to establish how things are; until we do, we've no idea how to proceed to make things better. Unfortunately, many seem to choose ignorance and fantasy. You seem to have chosen not to engage reality.


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## AlanY (8 Apr 2021)

This thread still going? I am beginning to feel nostalgic about the screaming wally at Westminster (the 'Stop Brexit' one, not the 650 in Parliament). You folks carry on. I am sure you are all making absolute sense but, like Cabinetman, I won't bother coming back to find out.


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## powertools (8 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Sadly the UK hasn't negotiated a single trade deal.
> Every single deal has been an EU rollover deal.
> 
> The Japan deal was lauded at the time as a wonderful deal....but scrutinising the detail, it turns out it was 95% cut and paste EU deal and the improvements over the EU deal are largely in Japan's favour.
> ...




The fact that the UK has in 3 months rolled over most of the trade deals with other countries should be something we should all be pleased about as the deals are now far better than what was before in that we still have the same trading situation with most of the countries involved without the commitment to the EU project. It is also something that the scare mongers said could never happen
I notice that France now seems to think that we should help to bale out Eurostar what is that all about it is nothing to do with us and even if it was a bale out goes against EU rules. They just don't get it yet it is not the UK that is causing problems with trade.


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## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

Chris152 said:


> That's up to you. I'm a professional historian, watched this stuff for years. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's watching carefully to establish how things are; until we do, we've no idea how to proceed to make things better. But you seem to have chosen not to engage reality.


For me the frustration with Brexit is not that it's happened, it is the almost total lack of debate based on facts and evidence.

The common claim that remainers are negative, miserable, defeatist etc etc....is simply resorting to emotive adjectives which are a deflection from discussions based on facts and evidence.

Brexit was and still is sold by those in charge as having the purpose of benefitting the country. But it's real purpose is for vested self interest of a wealthy few. Behind the scenes we are seeing inceasing levels of US libertarian groups lobbying government, mostly indirectly through Brexit "think tanks" (Brexit propaganda sites). My concern is the level of damage that will be inflicted in the next few years.


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## Blackswanwood (8 Apr 2021)

I wonder how much shorter this thread would have been if everyone had just made their point once


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## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> The fact that the UK has in 3 months rolled over most of the trade deals with other countries should be something we should all be pleased about as the deals are now far better than what was before in that we still have the same trading situation with most of the countries involved without the commitment to the EU project



The pro brexit side has spent a lot of time telling us the great benefit of Brexit is new opportunities with preferential trade deals.....but as yet there have been no new opportunities.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the deals are far better that what was before" ....I don't understand this because:

apart from some minor changes, UKGT rates are pretty similar to EUs CET rates.
In terms of non tariff barriers, all those countries that we've made deals with....already trade with the EU and comply with their rules....for them the EU is a much larger market, how will they benefit selling to the UK with different rules and regulations? I don't get the logic

Given the EU is our largest trade partner by a country mile, do you actually see a big benefit in UK diverging regulations for a marketplace much further afield and more spread out?

Let's remember UK does about 70% of its trade with the 3 economic superpowers: EU, USA, China none of which will give UKmapreferential trade deal....so you argument only exists for the 30% anyway.


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## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

AlanY said:


> This thread still going? I am beginning to feel nostalgic about the screaming wally at Westminster (the 'Stop Brexit' one, not the 650 in Parliament). You folks carry on. I am sure you are all making absolute sense but, like Cabinetman, I won't bother coming back to find out.



I never quite understand these posts....if it's of no interest to you, why bother posting to say "it's of no interest to me"


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## highwood122 (8 Apr 2021)

if we had truly been in the eu. without all sorts of financial benefits kept from us, most people would probably have wanted to stay in. if you have travelled the continent extensively you should know what i mean


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## Cheshirechappie (8 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I've studied the detail on both of these.
> 
> 1 CANZUK
> The major problem with it is that it doesn't exist.
> ...



Yes, CANZUK is an idea - and it's a good one. CPTPP is driven principally by Japan, who have a very strong interest in keeping China out of it. Both of those, if they come to pass, will be treaties from which the UK could unilaterally withdraw should membership drawbacks come to outweigh advantages.

Robin, by all means believe whatever you want to believe. But - let's see where the world is in 5 years, 10 years - or even a timescale comparable to the UK's EEC/EC/EU membership. Then we can judge whether Brexit was good or bad. Quite possible the EU won't exist in it's current form by then.


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## Cheshirechappie (8 Apr 2021)

Chris152 said:


> That's up to you. I'm a professional historian, watched this stuff for many years. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's watching carefully to establish how things are; until we do, we've no idea how to proceed to make things better. Unfortunately, many seem to choose ignorance and fantasy. You seem to have chosen not to engage reality.


I mean no offence, but I have to confess that I prefer the Robert Tombs / Niall Ferguson school of analysis. Sure, the West has problems, but when hasn't it? On balance I prefer the results of Reformation, Enlightenment, scientific and industrial revolutions, applied capitalism, democratic government and freedom of thought we enjoy in what might loosely be termed 'the West' to some of the historical alternatives, and especially to the results of applied ideologies such as Marxism which have inflicted so much misery on so many during the 20th and early 21st centuries.

Are you better off or worse off than your grandparents were? I know I'm better off than mine. Life expectancy, healthcare, variety of food and goods available to buy, ease of travel - you name it. The UK isn't declining, it's getting better. There are ups and downs of course, and there are still problems to address, but are we ordinary folk better off than ordinary folk a century ago? Would be a very blinkered historian that said no, I think.


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## Jacob (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> I mean no offence, but I have to confess that I prefer the Robert Tombs / Niall Ferguson school of analysis. Sure, the West has problems, but when hasn't it? On balance I prefer the results of Reformation, Enlightenment, scientific and industrial revolutions, applied capitalism, democratic government and freedom of thought we enjoy in what might loosely be termed 'the West' to some of the historical alternatives, and especially to the results of applied ideologies such as Marxism which have inflicted so much misery on so many during the 20th and early 21st centuries.


Have recently read a fascinating history book - more or less describes the inception of modern Capitalism. It's actually a gripping read - you can't put it down:
Verso
Following that up with David Olusoga's book about what drove American and British capitalism/productivity and wealth generation from Columbus onwards.
Haven't watched the TV series yet thats next David Olusoga's look at a forgotten history shows there's always been black in the Union Jack








BBC Two - Black and British: A Forgotten History, First Encounters


David Olusoga explores the relationship between Britain and people of African origins.




www.bbc.co.uk




.


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## MarkDennehy (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Quite possible the EU won't exist in it's current form by then.


This is (at least in the mathematical sense) a possibility (though, as my father would point out, not a _probability_). However, it's more possible that the UK itself will no longer exist in its current form by then. I mean, looking at the journalist feeds on twitter (I don't know why, but journalism seems to have embraced twitter the way woodworkers embraced instagram) from Belfast tonight, things are starting to move towards an eleventh night of rioting. Scotland's indepenedence movement is pretty clearly visible, and even Wales has made noises this year, which I think might be a first in my lifetime.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that we may still have the most interesting days ahead of us, in the proverbial sense


----------



## MarkDennehy (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Are you better off or worse off than your grandparents were?


I mean, my grandparents lived into their eighties, which is over the average life expectancy today, and they owned their own houses.
Granted, they didn't have computer games and twitter, but I suppose we all have hardships to bear.

If all goes well, I might be able to buy a house this year. Maybe. Which means at the age of 45, I would finally have bought a house. It will be smaller than the house I grew up in, cost an amount I'm more familiar with seeing in the sweepstakes winnings pages, and will have been bought two decades after when my grandparents bought theirs (the ones on my mother's side at least, my father's side were in british army housing in Tralee from the Royal Munster Fusileers days). This is despite earning more than my father ever did, and more than my grandfather could have counted to easily. Laugh at millenials all you want (especially since I predate them) but they're facing lives a lot harder than you'd think based on the idea of each generation always having it easier than the last, because that stopped working as a model for how things are somewhere between GenX and Millenials. (Also, I say "facing" like they were kids, but Millennials are now in their mid-30s to mid-40s and have kids of their own, because linear time is a cruel mistress).

My grandparents also didn't have to cope with a pandemic (they were born years after the last one) or climate change. And they missed out on the Irish civil war by a few years too. So they lived blessed lives in many ways.

Now, if you want to go back a century, that wouldn't be grandparents, that'd be my great-grandparents (want to feel old? Stay alive for a decade  ) and to be fair, mine got shot in the somme where they'd been sent after surviving V beach and before they went home as a British Army colour-sergeant to train the IRA, so they probably had a more interesting time of it than their children did


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## D_W (8 Apr 2021)

I doubt most people who compare things like parents' house size, etc, would make a fair comparison. 

Here in the states, houses were 2x income on average about 75 years ago. There was a reason for that - there was almost nothing in them. Many were frame, poorly insulated, relatively unsafe, or if they were older, brick or stone and the same. I can guarantee that until my parents were fairly comfortable, they never made mention of a vacation that was more than a couple of hours away - flying would be out of the question. 

We're entitled now. I live in a house half the size of my parents' house, but both of them worked (my wife does not). My father lived through vietnam. My grandfather lived through world war II and the korean war. 

Their pondering how to spend their leisure money was limited to one meal out per week, and quite often here, that was a hot dog shop. My father lived in a large house, but it was heated with one register, and the bedrooms didn't have heat (and this isn't England where snow is transient) - they had one bathroom for 11 people (they did have a big house, and it was owned by them). They were dirt poor, but my father didn't resent it. The first time he ever "ordered off of a menu" he was 16, and his father was college educated, by the way. 

There are many ways to look at this, but I'm not that receptive to complaints about things being harder now until I see a whole bunch of people working as hard as my relatives did (we don't) at things that they didn't sometimes like very much, and then being as stingy with their money in terms of pleasing themselves wastefully once they were not at work.


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## MarkDennehy (8 Apr 2021)

I mean, if we stay on this road we'll be looking for two others from yorkshire, but I think we've had different lives D_W. Neither my mother nor my maternal grandmother worked after marriage - in fact, it was quasi-illegal to do so except in certain jobs like nursing and teaching over here, my mother was dismissed from the civil service on getting married because it was thought married women working were just taking up jobs men could be doing (and that's a view into a darker world in a nutshell right there). 

But both myself and my wife works and both of us earn more than our parents did, and yet we'll be paying out more money than our parents ever saw to live in a house that's smaller than the ones we grew up in. We don't live extravagant lives, and by that I mean we don't drink, don't smoke, have had very few holidays abroad (one two-week vacation in the canaries twelve years ago, and we've had weekends in europe five or six times wandering round museums in amsterdam and brussels and listening to mozart in vienna, which means my great-grandfather saw more of the world than we have, even if he was shooting at it at the time). Ordering takeaway is a treat to us. Books, tools, education, those we spend money on because that's the family tradition, but I'm not sure you'd call them _treats_ as such and I know my grandparents and greatgrandparents had comparable collections of all of those to ours.

Honestly, when you do the comparison, it's not as easy as you'd imagine it should be to say who's having the better life. We certainly have things they didn't, but they absolutely had things we won't ever have either, like an easier pace of life (my grandparents now, not my great-grandfather, because army life during a world war is a bit rapid). 

In fact, up till '98 or so, you couldn't even say we had more money than our grandparents (Ireland's economy didn't really take off till around then - we all expected when I was born that not all of us would live in Ireland, we figured at least one of us was for the boat, maybe two of the three of us).


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## Jake (8 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I never quite understand these posts....if it's of no interest to you, why bother posting to say "it's of no interest to me"



It's the real cancel culture at work. Always it comes back to projection.


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## MarkDennehy (8 Apr 2021)

Ha! Right after talking about the relative hardships of the lives of millenials, this gets put up on another (IT) forum I read: 






I mean, it's written for giggles, but it's a reasonable summary. 
Millenials: they've got cause to be annoyed


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## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Yes, CANZUK is an idea - and it's a good one


It seems to me to be imperial nostalgia - and it's a long way down the priorities for CANZ.

Australia trades mostly with China 
Canada trades mostly with America
UK trades mostly with with its nearest and biggest trade partner.


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## RobinBHM (8 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Life expectancy, healthcare, variety of food and goods available to buy, ease of travel - you name it. The UK isn't declining, it's getting better



But surely any valid comparisons are with other similar economies now.

I can't see how a comparison with previous generations gives us much of a clue as to how the UK is doing.

In terms of metrics, the UK isn't great...it's somewhere around 18th when comparing to EU 27 for life expectancy, retirement age, healthcare provision, pensioner and child poverty.

In terms of inequality, in work poverty, hunger, public services, cancer treatment etc, the UK isn't amazing.

I suspect people living in rented properties working with a zero hour contract....won't be thinking the UK is great.


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## Jake (8 Apr 2021)

Geography is not everything, but it's a really heavy and immovable influence.


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## Doug B (9 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> Ha! Right after talking about the relative hardships of the lives of millenials, this gets put up on another (IT) forum I read:
> View attachment 107911
> 
> 
> ...


I think being born around 1920 takes some beating for miserable prospects, & those that survived had bigger challenges than dealing with Brexit, they got us to where we are now what we need to do is rise to the challenge like they did.


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## MIGNAL (9 Apr 2021)

Let's not forget that Cheshirechappie was on here circa 2016 telling everyone that the EU was about to collapse, that an EU army was about to be formed and Turkey was about to join the EU - that had collapsed.


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## Lons (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> But surely any valid comparisons are with other similar economies now.
> 
> I can't see how a comparison with previous generations gives us much of a clue as to how the UK is doing.
> 
> ...


I voted to remain in the EU Robin but being fair I don't think anyone could honestly claim that those situations were caused by Brexit, all existed while the UK was a member of the EU.
OK projections can be made that Brexit will make it worse but they are still projections not fact...yet!


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Apr 2021)

MIGNAL said:


> Let's not forget that Cheshirechappie was on here circa 2016 telling everyone that the EU was about to collapse, that an EU army was about to be formed and Turkey was about to join the EU - that had collapsed.


I did not say those things.

I think the EU may well collapse at some time, but it won't be quick.

There are proposals to form an EU army. Again, this won't be quick.

I have never expressed a view as to whether or not Turkey will or won't join the EU.

If you're going to ascribe statements to people , try and make them accurate.


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## Jacob (9 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I think being born around 1920 takes some beating for miserable prospects, & those that survived had bigger challenges than dealing with Brexit, they got us to where we are now what we need to do is rise to the challenge like they did.


But Brexit is an unnecessary and self imposed challenge.
Could say the same about WW1 though we didn't vote for it - it was imposed on us by govt, but WW2 was unavoidable (perhaps).
The big challenge we now have is climate change. Brexit is a trivial side show in comparison but won't make things any easier.


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## MIGNAL (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> I did not say those things.
> 
> I think the EU may well collapse at some time, but it won't be quick.
> 
> ...



Must have been another Cheshirechappie. . . . 
As for the EU collapsing. Well yes, 'some time' can be a mighty long time. A bit like all those benefits of Brexit. I mean when exactly are they going to pop along, 1 year, 5 years, 15, 20, 50? Right now it's odds on that Britain will collapse long before the EU. That's another thing the Brexiteers kept very silent about.


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## Daniel2 (9 Apr 2021)

The Uk merits being renamed as the DUK.


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## MIGNAL (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> But surely any valid comparisons are with other similar economies now.
> 
> I can't see how a comparison with previous generations gives us much of a clue as to how the UK is doing.
> 
> ...



Yes. Look up the proportion of over 65's in comparable countries - Germany, France, Italy, Spain and even Portugal.
Despite the UK being 'younger' we still managed to have the worst covid death rate. We are also an island which didn't seem to give us any advantage at all.


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## sploo (9 Apr 2021)

MIGNAL said:


> Must have been another Cheshirechappie. . . .
> As for the EU collapsing. Well yes, 'some time' can be a mighty long time. A bit like all those benefits of Brexit. I mean when exactly are they going to pop along, 1 year, 5 years, 15, 20, 50? Right now it's odds on that Britain will collapse long before the EU. That's another thing the Brexiteers kept very silent about.


The only timeframe given I believe was from the haunted Victorian pencil Rees-Mogg; of perhaps 50 years for Brexit benefits. It's unclear as to exactly what benefits he was referring, but given that his world outlook is firmly of the Victorian era he might have been eluding to taking 50 years to achieve the social standards of the Edwardian era.


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## Jonm (9 Apr 2021)

This post is off topic in relation to not being about woodwork. It is about Customs Declarations with particular reference to the Channel Islands and the effect Brexit has had on this. 

I am trying to forget about the Referendum and all that followed. We have left the EU. I can wind myself up about it but there is nothing to be done at the moment. We have to get on with life. We are one country at the moment with real problems of Coronavirus, Scottish Independence and the unrest in Northern Ireland. We have to stop defining ourselves as Brexiteers or leavers or remainers.

Griping on about Brexit or crowing about vaccine rollout in UK compared to europe where cases are rising and more people are dying does not help.

The EU will evolve without us, maybe in to something we would not want to rejoin or maybe we will want to rejoin. But that will take many years and there is nothing we can do about it at the moment.

The much quoted WW2 generation did not gripe on about the Political mistakes leading up to the war, not least Britain’s lack of support for France when Germany remilitarised the Rhineland. Hitler could an should have been stopped then, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. That generation got on and dealt with the situation they were in and we should do the same.

Really if you want to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of Brexit then set up a thread to cover it.


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## Daniel2 (9 Apr 2021)

The thread title gives a good hint as to it's content


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## NormanB (9 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> The thread title gives a good hint as to it's content


Could be retitled as ‘Bilge’ for accuracy.


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## pidgeonpost (9 Apr 2021)

With regard to 1920 not being a good time to be born, my late Dad would probably agree. 
Born into a large and hard-up family (7 kids) in a depressed and desperate post-WW1 England, his father was a labourer in the local gasworks so money was tight. 
His first glimpse of life's inequalities was when he got a Saturday job caddying on the local golf links. He could earn as much in tips in one day as it took his father 48-50 hours to earn. 
With little prospect of local work, he joined the Royal Navy in 1935 - not the greatest career choice at that time if we apply our old friend 'hindsight'.
Comes along WW2, and he experiences being too hot, too cold, bombed, shot at, sunk, and a variety of other things, sometimes all at the same time, and in various places on the globe. 
Post-WW2 and Britain experiences Groundhog Day, ie depressed, desperate, we're on the bones of our @rses again, and there's not much call for Petty Officer Telegraphists in civvy street. 
No choice but to get on with things to a degree. He retrained, worked hard and we got by. My parents never owned their home, had precious few holidays (all but one in the UK), and for much of my childhood the family car was a motorbike and sidecar.
Dad's years in retirement were easier and gave him chance to do a lot of reading and research - all from library books, no PC. 
He was quite well-read on European history, and the formation of the EU. He used have a grumble about it at times, but he was glad it existed and that we were part of it. He'd been through WW2 and the post-war years, and he valued the fact that the EU had been instrumental in helping to maintain a peace in Europe that has lasted for over 70 years, Balkans excepted. There seems to be little mention of the value of that peace from either side of the great Brexit debate these days.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> The thread title gives a good hint as to it's content


well, one of the four words does.


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## Jacob (9 Apr 2021)

NormanB said:


> Could be retitled as ‘Bilge’ for accuracy.


Am I right in thinking that it's nearly all just brexitters who object to threads about brexit?
You can see why though!


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Apr 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> he valued the fact that the EU had been instrumental in helping to maintain a peace in Europe that has lasted for over 70 years, Balkans excepted. There seems to be little mention of the value of that peace from either side of the great Brexit debate these days.



1/ the EU didn't exist until 1993.
2/ it didn't keep the peace, Nato and Uncle Sam did. That's probably why it's not mentioned.


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## planesleuth (9 Apr 2021)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> I voted to remain in the EU Robin but being fair I don't think anyone could honestly claim that those situations were caused by Brexit, all existed while the UK was a member of the EU.
> OK projections can be made that Brexit will make it worse but they are still projections not fact...yet!


I agree, I wasn't suggesting those things were a result of Brexit.....I should have made that clear.

I was trying to put "flesh on the bone" to the claims that the UK is doing great....it clearly isn't, at least not for many people.

I am guessing Northumberland is a vote Leave area, so you maybe in a minority?


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## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> . That generation got on and dealt with the situation they were in and we should do the same





Jonm said:


> Griping on about Brexit



I am sorry but I disagree with this narrative.

It is perfectly acceptable to have a debate, a discussion about a political event that has occurred.

It is also perfectly reasonable to disagree with a political event, it is not the same as simply moaning.

In terms of Brexit the great difficulty is the discourse is so distorted by emotive tribalism and to be frank, outright dishonesty.....that discussions need to continue.

The UKs relationship with EU and the border between NI and GB can't stay as they are.....and it is impossible to move forward until the politicians stop lies and gaslighting and or the public become well informed with facts and evidence.

Sadly there won't be honest discussions for a number of years because the real reason for Brexit was vested self interest of a minority of wealthy people.....and pipper all to do with sovereignty.


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## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

MIGNAL said:


> ht now it's odds on that Britain will collapse long before the EU


UK already has really.....It has thumping great customs border.

It's ironic the UK has an internal Market.....smaller than the UK.


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> UK already has really.....It has thumping great customs border.



Not one that the UK government wanted, but one imposed by the political position taken by the EU. Given the stark choice between that and a hard border on the island of Ireland, which would you have chosen?


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## Jacob (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Not one that the UK government wanted, but one imposed by the political position taken by the EU. Given the stark choice between that and a hard border on the island of Ireland, which would you have chosen?


Nonsense - it was chosen by our government. And they lied blatantly about it, which is the cause of the current upset - as widely forecast.
Also widely forecast is that blame for the failings of brexit will directed at the EU and not at the government, as we see here!


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> .......
> 
> Sadly there won't be honest discussions for a number of years because the real reason for Brexit was vested self interest of a minority of wealthy people.....and pipper all to do with sovereignty.



Robin, you keep banging on about the dishonesty of others, but this statement is just plain wrong. Go check the various opinion polls taken after the referendum as to why people cast their vote to leave, and sovereignty was the reason for 49% of leave votes. As to vested interests of wealthy people, I seem to recall the CBI, major businesses, the vast majority of the Establishment all bleating on endlessly about how terrible it would be if the UK left. Nissan said it would probably move it's factories to the European mainland in the event of our leaving; now it's investing in it's Sunderland plant.

You're perfectly entitled to believe anything you want to, and to post your opinion - but some of it is not very accurate.


----------



## Jacob (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Robin, you keep banging on about the dishonesty of others, but this statement is just plain wrong. Go check the various opinion polls taken after the referendum as to why people cast their vote to leave, and sovereignty was the reason for 49% of leave votes. As to vested interests of wealthy people, I seem to recall the CBI, major businesses, the vast majority of the Establishment all bleating on endlessly about how terrible it would be if the UK left. Nissan said it would probably move it's factories to the European mainland in the event of our leaving; now it's investing in it's Sunderland plant.
> 
> You're perfectly entitled to believe anything you want to, and to post your opinion - but some of it is not very accurate.


The campaign was led by a cohort of dubious financial interests including Farage, Banks, all the right wing media and nuttier elements of the right wing. Johnson just clambered on to the wagon for the fun of it - he wasn't bothered either way.


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## Jonm (9 Apr 2021)

[


RobinBHM said:


> I am sorry but I disagree with this narrative.
> 
> It is perfectly acceptable to have a debate, a discussion about a political event that has occurred.
> 
> ...


Of course it is “perfectly acceptable to have a debate, a discussion about a political event that has occurred” and I agree with a lot of what you are saying but not here.

From this post anyone having problems sending goods to the Channel Islands and wanting to know more, should be able to find out the following. The form came from hermes and said that because of Brexit it needed to be filled in. Details of sender and recipient passport numbers were required. People in France have received similar forms not just for the Channel Islands but for the whole of the uk. There are concerns about security and supplying such details to people you do not know. It transpires that the wrong form was sent. Try finding that out from the 20 pages of Brexit discussion.

Let us say you posted a question in this section about a problem with your central heating boiler and programmer not working properly. Someone responded with a comment about the boiler coming from Germany, the programmer from China and you needed another part. Then you got a comment about the increased cost of getting the part because of Brexit and before you know it you have 20 pages of discussion about Brexit and your original question got lost in the morass. 

If you want a discussion about Brexit and NI border which is of utmost importance and very valid then start a thread, I might join in.


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## Chris152 (9 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> [
> 
> Of course it is “perfectly acceptable to have a debate, a discussion about a political event that has occurred” and I agree with a lot of what you are saying but not here.
> 
> ...


Jacob acknowledge he may have got the wrong form by his third post - from then on, it's just been a discussion on the more general implications of the post title. seems fair enough?


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## Daniel2 (9 Apr 2021)

But, but, but.....
The thread title is Customs declarations and* Brexit *


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## D_W (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I never quite understand these posts....if it's of no interest to you, why bother posting to say "it's of no interest to me"



I know this is said in jest - of course the person who "isn't interested" wants someone to know that they're not interested. They're very interested in making sure you know what they are or aren't interested in. 

You can sort of cork their bung by saying "i'm interested in letting you know that I'm not interested in what you're interested in".


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## D_W (9 Apr 2021)

Or is it more polite in England to say "plug their barrel".


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## sploo (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Robin, you keep banging on about the dishonesty of others, but this statement is just plain wrong. Go check the various opinion polls taken after the referendum as to why people cast their vote to leave, and sovereignty was the reason for 49% of leave votes.


I think the point being made was about the motives behind those who pushed for Brexit in the first place; rather than the reasons why people chose to cast their vote the way they did.

If the 49% who cast a leave vote did so due to sovereignty that's pretty tragic; given they would have voted to get back something we had never lost, and ironically have probably resulted in the UK having less say over "local" international trade matters that affect us.


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## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Robin, you keep banging on about the dishonesty of others, but this statement is just plain wrong. Go check the various opinion polls taken after the referendum as to why people cast their vote to leave, and sovereignty was the reason for 49% of leave votes. As to vested interests of wealthy people, I seem to recall the CBI, major businesses, the vast majority of the Establishment all bleating on endlessly about how terrible it would be if the UK left. Nissan said it would probably move it's factories to the European mainland in the event of our leaving; now it's investing in it's Sunderland plant.
> 
> You're perfectly entitled to believe anything you want to, and to post your opinion - but some of it is not very accurate.



It is not my opinion, it is truw and backed up with facts and evidence

heres a few examples of brexit claims made that were either simply not true or misleading:

1 "unfettered access between NI and GB" -clearly untrue
2 "get rid of red tape" -well brexit now means: sanitary and phytosanitary controls, transit documents, customs declarations.
3 "tampon tax" -a claim made in Jan that now we have left, we can drop VAT -completely untrue, as there was a vote 5 years ago and many prominment brexiters in the Tory party voted against it
4 "end pulse fishing" -well that was banned years ago in the EU, it did relent for a few boats and is now being banned this year
5: EU have imposed new rules on live bivalve molluscs -wrong, the govt knew about that rule long before the trade deal
6. EU have put unfair rules in place on Irish border -untrue, NI is now in a different regulatory jurisdiction and therefore there must be a border.




sovereignty may have been a reason why people voted for brexit but its a false reason -the UK didnt lose sovereignty as an EU member -it shared it.

and brexit doesnt get back sovereignty -when you trade with other countries, you have to make compromises....and although the UK can in theory now negotiate trade deals, in practice it doesnt have the leverage to do so without considerable compromise -the EU trade deal is a good example. The EU gave away almost nothing, the UK had to capitulate lots.



In regards to vested self interest: there is a significant difference between CBI and major businesses wanting to keep frictionless trade with our biggest trade partner and the personal vested interest of those campaigning for brexit.

I strongly recommend you do some research on the Tufton street network -it is so called because 55 Tufton street is where many right wing libertarian lobby groups, brexit think tanks (so called they are really propaganda groups) have their businesses registered.

It includes or is connected with:

Institute of economic affairs
tax payers alliance
UK2020
Civitas
New Culture Forum
Centre for Brexit policy
Business for Britain
Global Vision
Vote Leave
Global warming policy foundation
The Bruges Group
Initiative for free trade

lots of misinformation spread on the internet, through social media and even on TV can be found to come from these lobby groups / institutes.









55 Tufton Street


55 Tufton Street Background The Westminster building located at 55 Tufton Street is home to a small but influential network of libertarian, pro-Brexit thinktanks and lobby groups, including the UK‘s principal climate science denial group, the Global Warming Policy Foundation. Information on the...




www.desmog.co.uk












The address where Eurosceptics and climate change sceptics rub shoulders


The offices of 55 Tufton Street in Westminister are home to no fewer than eight right-of-centre organisations




www.independent.co.uk












Matthew and Sarah Elliott: How a UK Power Couple Links US Libertarians and Fossil Fuel Lobbyists to Brexit


If you have detected a distinctly American flavour to the rampant lobbying in Westminster corridors over a Brexit deal, there is a good reason why. A close look at the transatlantic connections of the London-based groups pushing for the most deregulated form of Brexit reveals strong ties to...




www.desmog.co.uk





also have a look at Sarah and Matthew Elliott








The Elliotts: How a Power Couple Links US Libertarians to Brexit






littlesis.org







In regards to Nissan -no it said in event of no deal, Sunderland wouldnt be viable.


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It is not my opinion, it is truw and backed up with facts and evidence
> 
> heres a few examples of brexit claims made that were either simply not true or misleading:
> 
> ...


*sigh*

Fine - whatever. 

I genuinely wish I'd never got involved with this thread. It's nowt but a whinger's paradise. I'll leave you all to enjoy your misery.


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## Jonm (9 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> But, but, but.....
> The thread title is Customs declarations and* Brexit *


Well you could read that as two issues, 
1.Customs Declarations in general 
2. Brexit.

However if you read the title and the original post it is clear that the subject matter is the implications of Brexit on Customs Forms to the Channel Islands.


----------



## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

D_W said:


> "i'm interested in letting you know that I'm not interested in what you're interested in".


I think Im getting a migrane


----------



## pidgeonpost (9 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> 1/ the EU didn't exist until 1993.
> 2/ it didn't keep the peace, Nato and Uncle Sam did. That's probably why it's not mentioned.


1/ I said that the EU has helped to keep the peace. I would have thought it obvious that it could only contribute to this since its creation. 

2/ Are you seriously suggesting that it played no part in maintaining peace within Europe when the effects of not doing so are so obvious and on their doorstep? It simply untrue that it has all been down to the US and NATO. The EU has also contributed to the provision of peace-keeping forces outside its own borders.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> -the UK didnt lose sovereignty as an EU member -it shared it.



The whole point of sovereignty is that it can't be shared - you either have it or you don't. It's akin to being a bit pregnant. Even the liar Heath in one of his more honest moments admitted giving it away.


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## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> I genuinely wish I'd never got involved with this thread. It's nowt but a whinger's paradise



there is nothing in my post that could be described as "whinging" 
it contains facts and evidence....I cant help it if those things are not positive.


you only want hear positive things, great so let me ask you this: what is your positive solution to the Irish border issue.....
(but please note: solutions are only possible by understanding the problem)


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Apr 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> 1/ I said that the EU has helped to keep the peace. I would have thought it obvious that it could only contribute to this since its creation.
> 
> It must have done as it didn't cause any wars. It certainly didn't stop any. It couldn't deal with a playground tiff.


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## Doug B (9 Apr 2021)

I’m beginning to wish I’d bid on Jacob’s oil stone


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## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The whole point of sovereignty is that it can't be shared - you either have it or you don't. It's akin to being a bit pregnant. Even the liar Heath in one of his more honest moments admitted giving it away.


Its a bit more nuanced than that

no country in the world has total sovereignty -only a completely isolationist state has that (even NK doesnt have it -it trades with China and has to suffer international sanctions)

as an EU member the UK made shared decisions -so sovereignty was shared

heres an example: as an EU member, the UK was able to negotiate and debate passporting rights for Euro trades. Now it has left, the UK is a rule taker

the UK has a basic free trade deal with the EU, it got a deal with no level playing field -you might argue that it has regained sovereignty. However the EU has the right to impose tariffs if the UK diverge on standards - so thats a loss of sovereignty.


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## Jacob (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I think Im getting a migrane


It's probably "oppositional disorder" it shows up in many ways.
I think my wife has got it - it obviously hit a chord when I told her!


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## Jacob (9 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I’m beginning to wish I’d bid on Jacob’s oil stone


You could have had it fer nowt Doug! Would have saved a lot of bother!


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## Doug B (9 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> You could have had it fer nowt Doug! Would have saved a lot of bother!


Perhaps when the Nelson’s open again


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## sploo (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> there is nothing in my post that could be described as "whinging"
> it contains facts and evidence....I cant help it if those things are not positive.


Amazing really isn't it; how a group of conmen fornicate everything up by making promises they knew couldn't be delivered, but presenting the raw facts of their ineptitude is dismissed as whinging and being negative.

Meanwhile, many of those bungling anus holes are still effectively in charge (and continuing to bungle); but that's somehow ok, and/or we should be patient and give them time.


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## Jonm (9 Apr 2021)

[art of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be


Jacob said:


> You could have had it fer nowt Doug! Would have saved a lot of bother!


You set a hare running there.


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## D_W (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I think Im getting a migrane



interesting.


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## D_W (9 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's probably "oppositional disorder" it shows up in many ways.
> I think my wife has got it - it obviously hit a chord when I told her!



Wait, did you tell her she's got it or did you say you've got it? Telling an oppositional person that they may have a disorder is obviously going to be met with disagreement, and we don't want to encourage too much of that or you may be suspended which obviously would lead to diminished joy. 

Telling someone who isn't oppositional generally results in "no chords", neither minor nor major, no suspension and nothing is diminished.


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## Cheshirechappie (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> there is nothing in my post that could be described as "whinging"
> it contains facts and evidence....I cant help it if those things are not positive.
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't referring just to your post, I was referring to the general tone of the entire thread, dominated as it is by remain voters banging on about how terrible life is, how most politicians of the governing party are incompetent, incapable, mentally deficient, corrupt and heaven knows what else, how the country (if not the world) is going down the pan and has declined in the last (however long), and how it's all so UNFAIR!

As to NI, there were two options, given that the EU decided to 'protect its interests'. A customs border down the Irish sea, or a hard border on the island of Ireland. Which is the least worst option? Somehow, I suspect that a hard border would create even more problems than the current solution. So, we are where we are. 

Apart from which, it's not down to me to produce solutions - I'm not in government, nor am I a civil servant or adviser to government. My involvement was to cast my vote in a referendum on whether the UK should remain a member of the EU, or leave., I cast my vote for leave, and if I had to again, I wouldn't change my mind, because I think the UK's prospects are better out than in, for reasons discussed so many times over the last five years that I can't be *rsed to repeat them.

Now, Robin - if you've got any other questions or comments, direct them at someone else. In my last comment, I said I wish I hadn't got involved in this thread, and would leave you all to enjoy your misery in peace.

This time, I mean it.


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## Lons (9 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I agree, I wasn't suggesting those things were a result of Brexit.....I should have made that clear.
> 
> I was trying to put "flesh on the bone" to the claims that the UK is doing great....it clearly isn't, at least not for many people.
> 
> I am guessing Northumberland is a vote Leave area, so you maybe in a minority?


Yes I sort of guessed that Robin but maybe others didn't and yes I was in a minority but then we all were as those who voted for Brexit won! I said in the last Brexit thread that the reason I voted stay was purely because I felt it was far too late to leave as we had become too entrenched rather than because I liked the way the EU operates. The time to leave was missed many years earlier!


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## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> As to NI, there were two options, given that the EU decided to 'protect its interests


I find it sad that Brexiters refuse to accept responsibility for NI border issue and instead blame the EU.


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## MarkDennehy (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> As to NI, there were two options, given that the EU decided to 'protect its interests'. A customs border down the Irish sea, or a hard border on the island of Ireland. Which is the least worst option? Somehow, I suspect that a hard border would create even more problems than the current solution. So, we are where we are.


No, that's simply not good enough.

The UK signed and ratified an international treaty, which we commonly refer to as the Good Friday Agreement. That bound the UK and Ireland into the collaborative approach to Northern Ireland. Then the UK decided on Brexit; so now you have NI out of the EU and Ireland in the EU. You can't demand that the EU not have a border and you can't just shred your committments to the GFA, unless you want to advertise globally that any trade agreement you sign isn't worth the paper it was printed on. So we have the impossible situation where you committed to have no border on the island of Ireland but also want to have a border with the EU. Your successive governments spent five years throwing out one attempted solution to this after another, and ran a five-year clock down during which time you had other voting opportunities where you could have called for a hold on all of this until a solution was found, yet now we're watching your countrymen petrolbomb their own buses and we're up to twelve nights of the worst rioting in the UK in 20 years. And quite a few of us in this country are worried that the UK riots might spread across the border, as they had a habit of doing in the bad old days. While your own government has ignored it and will now use the death of a royal to ignore it some more.

So I'm sorry, but _"we are where we are" i_s just. not. good. enough. 

You do not live in a vacuum, and while you are entirely free to make your own choices, creating a firestorm in someone else's home and washing your hands of it with _"we are where we are"_ is _not being a decent human being._


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## RobinBHM (9 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> No, that's simply not good enough.
> 
> The UK signed and ratified an international treaty, which we commonly refer to as the Good Friday Agreement. That bound the UK and Ireland into the collaborative approach to Northern Ireland. Then the UK decided on Brexit; so now you have NI out of the EU and Ireland in the EU. You can't demand that the EU not have a border and you can't just shred your committments to the GFA, unless you want to advertise globally that any trade agreement you sign isn't worth the paper it was printed on. So we have the impossible situation where you committed to have no border on the island of Ireland but also want to have a border with the EU. Your successive governments spent five years throwing out one attempted solution to this after another, and ran a five-year clock down during which time you had other voting opportunities where you could have called for a hold on all of this until a solution was found, yet now we're watching your countrymen petrolbomb their own buses and we're up to twelve nights of the worst rioting in the UK in 20 years. And quite a few of us in this country are worried that the UK riots might spread across the border, as they had a habit of doing in the bad old days. While your own government has ignored it and will now use the death of a royal to ignore it some more.
> 
> ...



I think it would be fair to say the referendum didn't automatically mean a border issue in Ireland.

However those who voted for Johnson in 2019 directly voted for a Brexit that meant leaving the SM.

I do dislike this argument that the customs border between NI and EU....is the fault of the EU. But the reality is that there is an almost universal lack of understanding of the Single Market amongst Leavers....and that does tend to lead them to this blame game.



I must admit I had little understanding of the implications for Ireland, either politically, troubles or trade.....but those in the know have absolutely been saying it since 2016.


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## sploo (9 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> I wasn't referring just to your post, I was referring to the general tone of the entire thread, dominated as it is by remain voters banging on about how terrible life is, how most politicians of the governing party are incompetent, incapable, mentally deficient, corrupt and heaven knows what else, how the country (if not the world) is going down the pan and has declined in the last (however long), and how it's all so UNFAIR!


There's a wonderful irony there; given the tone of EU related comments that emanate from those who voted leave.


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## Doug B (10 Apr 2021)

People‘s votes are based on matters that concern them, the small picture as opposeed to the big picture if you are seriously suggesting folks who voted for Brexit should accept responsibility for the NI border is like saying everyone who voted for Thatcher should take responsibility for the decimation of coal mining communities when she shut the pits.
Whoever is elected is tasked with the jobs in hand, whilst the UK voted to leave it was down to BOTH sides to come up with workable arrangements & clearly both sides failed, blame lies at the their door not at the electorate, when you employ someone to do a job it’s not your fault if they do a poor job.


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## partsandlabour (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> The EU is not the centre of commerce on planet earth, if you are getting issues when dealing with them then find another source and perhaps at some point they will need to smooth things out when they realise that they are losing exports.



If I don't bring in what I need from the EU, where a distributor is based, my next choice is to import it from Taiwan by the container load. Not viable. The EU is a hub for international trade with the UK that we have now lost.


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## Chris152 (10 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> People‘s votes are based on matters that concern them, the small picture as opposeed to the big picture if you are seriously suggesting folks who voted for Brexit should accept responsibility for the NI border is like saying everyone who voted for Thatcher should take responsibility for the decimation of coal mining communities when she shut the pits.


With the right to vote comes the responsibility of a vote's consequences. Obviously, many people seem to be too busy to even try to consider the bigger picture - presumably they're more concerned about watching the next episode of eastenders or whatever carp they get up to than spend the time and effort informing themselves. I don't see how lack of due diligence absolves us of responsibility for our actions.
The NI issue was flagged up long before we went down the route we've taken.


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## sploo (10 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> People‘s votes are based on matters that concern them, the small picture as opposeed to the big picture if you are seriously suggesting folks who voted for Brexit should accept responsibility for the NI border is like saying everyone who voted for Thatcher should take responsibility for the decimation of coal mining communities when she shut the pits.
> Whoever is elected is tasked with the jobs in hand, whilst the UK voted to leave it was down to BOTH sides to come up with workable arrangements & clearly both sides failed, blame lies at the their door not at the electorate, when you employ someone to do a job it’s not your fault if they do a poor job.


Well, yes. Yes, they do have a degree of responsibility. That's the point of a vote.

And, having interviewed and employed tens of people over the years, I would respectfully say that if you think it's not your fault if you employ someone and they turn out to be bad then you really shouldn't be doing any recruitment!


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## Noel (10 Apr 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> I wasn't referring just to your post, I was referring to the general tone of the entire thread, dominated as it is by remain voters banging on about how terrible life is, how most politicians of the governing party are incompetent, incapable, mentally deficient, corrupt and heaven knows what else, how the country (if not the world) is going down the pan and has declined in the last (however long), and how it's all so UNFAIR!
> 
> As to NI, there were two options, given that the EU decided to 'protect its interests'. A customs border down the Irish sea, or a hard border on the island of Ireland. Which is the least worst option? Somehow, I suspect that a hard border would create even more problems than the current solution. So, *we are where we are.*
> 
> ...


Jason Devlin Tweeted:
_" Last night a digger parked in our street, 10 metres from my car and our front door, was petrol bombed & set alight. Our bins stolen from the main road & burnt. We sat up all night worried for the safety of our 2 young kids, one of whom is 5 weeks old. "_

Don't worry Jason, "we are where we are.".

Problem is CC, you ain't part of "we", someday you might understand the issues of the last 13 nights of violence, someday you might take a brief glance at the GFA, someday you might understand the hurt and fear. Someday you might have a little compassion, just a smidgeon, a little empathy and understanding. Someday.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Apr 2021)

I voted out, so Irish people trying to murder Irish people must be my fault? Weird. At least if Ireland reunited my taxes wouldn't have to pay for it all.


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## selectortone (10 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I voted out, so Irish people trying to murder Irish people must be my fault? Weird. At least if Ireland reunited my taxes wouldn't have to pay for it all.


I think the problem might be a little more nuanced than that.


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## MarkDennehy (10 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I voted out, so Irish people trying to murder Irish people must be my fault? Weird.


Can we just pause for a moment there Phil? You've got a teensy small tiny fact incorrect. Allow me to explain: 

They're *not* Irish people trying to murder Irish people. They are *your* countrymen, not mine. They live in the *UK*. They hold *British* passports. They are *British people trying to murder British people within the United Kingdom*. 

Is this now less weird for you?


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## MarkDennehy (10 Apr 2021)

BTW, for those thinking or saying_ "yeah, but they're really the 'ra, so they don't want to be British"_, I understand that the British press has somewhat dropped the ball here, so just one small point you need to bear in mind here - the people throwing the petrol bombs are not the IRA, they're the *other* side. The UDF/UDA/UVF unionist terrorists/paramilitaries/whatever noun you're most comfortable with. The ones the First Minister has been meeting with instead of the head of the police service in Northern Ireland. This isn't in dispute by anyone, it's freely being admitted. There's nobody even suggesting this is all an IRA resurgence 23 years after the GFA was signed (literally today, it's the 23rd anniversary).

The point is, they're the ones who *want* to be British. And they're setting the place on fire.


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## MarkDennehy (10 Apr 2021)

All of which is very depressing to watch. NI should be celebrating, all their numbers say that they managed to break the pandemic a fortnight ago. They should be having (socially distanced) parties right now. Not this.


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## Spectric (10 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> They're *not* Irish people trying to murder Irish people.


Correct me if I am wrong but they all live in Ireland so they must be Irish against Irish, it is just they have different religions. How many people has religion killed over the centuries and for no other reason than one lot prefer this building and the other lot another building because at the end of the day a church is just a building and so it makes the whole thing really absurd.


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but they all live in Ireland so they must be Irish against Irish, it is just they have different religions. How many people has religion killed over the centuries and for no other reason than one lot prefer this building and the other lot another building because at the end of the day a church is just a building and so it makes the whole thing really absurd.


They are "British". 
Not much to do with religion thats just a historical detail, it's about nationalism, vested interests and power.


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## Handyoneill (10 Apr 2021)

thomashenry said:


> I thought a tariff free agreement had been agreed? Funny, as I just had to pay £37 import fees for a gift, (value £60) that I sent to Spain.



Why on earth did you think that ?

The realisation of what UK has done to itself is only beginning to dawn on people.

Boris was telling us all that the Australian system was great. A hammer and chisel holder cost me 40 pounds in duty, processing fees taxes. It fit in an A4 envelope. 

As an Irishman living in St Alban's we are all scratching our head wondering when it's going to dawn on people as to what they have signed up to.


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## Spectric (10 Apr 2021)

This is just another case of polical incompetance and stupidity, with a good touch of empire building and sovereignty. The people in Scotland are Scottish, the people in China are Chinese, the people in France are French, the people in Wales are Welsh so what are the people in Ireland?

It is time we forget the past and our days of the empire, Ireland should be Ireland without the british involvement and not remain something unwanted where it does not belong such as Israel.


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## Noel (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but they all live in Ireland so they must be Irish against Irish, it is just they have different religions. How many people has religion killed over the centuries and for no other reason than one lot prefer this building and the other lot another building because at the end of the day a church is just a building and so it makes the whole thing really absurd.



Hold on a minute, or longer, whilst I lift my face from the palms of my hands....


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## Spectric (10 Apr 2021)

A lot of teething troubles, as long as we give as good as we get it should/might iron itself out one day!


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## MarkDennehy (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but they all live in Ireland


They *don't*. They live in Northern Ireland. Different country. 
Ireland is the other country, the one south of the border. 
If you live in Northern Ireland, you're a *UK* citizen, not an Irish citizen. You are *British*, not Irish.

And look, that is simplfying somewhat and it is legitimately confusing because under the GFA someone who lives in NI can have either a British or an Irish passport and can represent either Ireland or the UK in the Olympics and some other deliberate vagueness was introduced in order to try to bring about an end to the violence of the 70s, 80s and 90s - but legally, they *are* UK citizens. And more to the point, the violence being carried out today is being carried out by Unionists - ie. the people who want to be UK citizens, who are in favour of the United Kingdom (hence the name Unionist). Extremist unionists, yes, and most unionists are appalled by this and are calling for an end to the violence, but the point I'm trying to make is that the people setting the place on fire identify as British, are in favour of being in the United Kingdom and legally they *are* British and UK citizens and _*your*_ countrymen.


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> This is just another case of polical incompetance and stupidity, with a good touch of empire building and sovereignty. The people in Scotland are Scottish, the people in China are Chinese, the people in France are French, the people in Wales are Welsh so what are the people in Ireland?
> 
> It is time we forget the past and our days of the empire, Ireland should be Ireland without the british involvement and not remain something unwanted where it does not belong such as Israel.


You could answer your question if you look into the history of the island of Ireland History of Ireland - Wikipedia


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## Spectric (10 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> If you live in Northern Ireland, you're a *UK* citizen, not an Irish citizen. You are *British*, not Irish.


This is the problem that has one of two solutions, 1) It is accepted as English and therefore troublesome Irish are deported back to Ireland or 2) As it is just a single landmass then call it all Ireland and deport the troublesome English or yes 3) Just deport all troublesome people to some remote island.


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## Noel (10 Apr 2021)

Don’t they use the Euro in Scotland and Wales instead of the £ ?


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> This is the problem that has one of two solutions, 1) It is accepted as English and therefore troublesome Irish are deported back to Ireland or 2) As it is just a single landmass then call it all Ireland and deport the troublesome English or yes 3) Just deport all troublesome people to some remote island.


 Very good, well done, you have to start somewhere if you want to catch up on history!
n.b. I counted three solutions? Maybe toss a three sided coin?


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## MarkDennehy (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> This is the problem that has one of two solutions, 1) It is accepted as English and therefore troublesome Irish are deported back to Ireland or 2) As it is just a single landmass then call it all Ireland and deport the troublesome English or yes 3) Just deport all troublesome people to some remote island.


1) "back to Ireland" is difficult because the people involved are British, born in the UK, pay tax to the UK, hold British passports, have rights under British law and have never set foot in Ireland. It's a bit hard to go back to a place you've never been to in the first place.

2) They're not English, they're British, in the same way that Scottish people are currently British and Welsh people are British and English people are British; and also, who would deport them? We're talking about the people who form the local government, the police, the local civil service and make up 100% of the local population. Are you suggesting we get the Americans to invade and forcibly dump 1.8 million refugees into Cumbria?

3) Again, who does the deporting and more logistically, which island do they deport them to? I know the current UK home secretary has thoughts on the matter, but to be fair, St.Helena is too small for 1.8 million people. 

(Yes, I know you keep saying "just the troublesome ones" but if the americans invade and start deporting people to the middle of the atlantic ocean, you will find that the number of "troublesome" people will rise rather sharply and without much in the way of limiting, that being human nature).


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## sploo (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but they all live in Ireland so they must be Irish against Irish, it is just they have different religions.





Because I don't wish physical harm to anyone, I would strongly advise taking a bit of time to look into the geopolitical history of that area, should you ever consider visiting. Otherwise, I have a small feeling the point of view expressed above _might_ just get you into a bit of bother.


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## Spectric (10 Apr 2021)

So are we actually saying that this is an unsolvable problem that will just carry on infintum along with all the suffering and chaos, surely all the people have the right to a decent happy life.


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## Jacob (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> So are we actually saying that this is an unsolvable problem that will just carry on infintum along with all the suffering and chaos, surely all the people have the right to a decent happy life.


Yes but they can't agree on what constitutes a decent happy life!
It seems to me that Ireland should be re united and England should look at reparations for 1000 years of violent abuse, but you try telling them!


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## MarkDennehy (10 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> So are we actually saying that this is an unsolvable problem that will just carry on infintum along with all the suffering and chaos, surely all the people have the right to a decent happy life.


That was *literally* the motivation behind the good friday agreement. Millions of people all voted (and I'm heavily paraphrasing here but you can read the full GFA in ten minutes flat if you want, and a summary of what it says in about ninety seconds) to "agree to disagree" and get on with their lives. Somehow - and frankly I didn't think it would ever happen - it worked. One of the bigger surprises in my lifetime I think, for a lot of people.


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## RobinBHM (10 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> People‘s votes are based on matters that concern them, the small picture as opposeed to the big picture if you are seriously suggesting folks who voted for Brexit should accept responsibility for the NI border is like saying everyone who voted for Thatcher should take responsibility for the decimation of coal mining communities when she shut the pits.
> Whoever is elected is tasked with the jobs in hand, whilst the UK voted to leave it was down to BOTH sides to come up with workable arrangements & clearly both sides failed, blame lies at the their door not at the electorate, when you employ someone to do a job it’s not your fault if they do a poor job.



There was a workable arrangement: stay in the customs union and Single Market.

No other workable opinions exist. 
Anybody that voted for the Boris Johnson deal voted for a customs border in the Irish Sea.
It is dishonest to say both sides failed....the EU offered Theresa May the backstop option.

This hard Brexit, it directly the fault of this govt and those that voted them in.

If Brexiters on this forum want positivity, they need to accept responsibility for what has happened instead of blaming the EU.

Let's be clear: Parliament, the DUP and the electrorate were lied to: the claim was the deal meant "the whole of the UK leave the EU entirely and as a whole. There would be totally unfettered access between NI and GB" all entirely false.


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## RobinBHM (10 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> BTW, for those thinking or saying_ "yeah, but they're really the 'ra, so they don't want to be British"_, I understand that the British press has somewhat dropped the ball here, so just one small point you need to bear in mind here - the people throwing the petrol bombs are not the IRA, they're the *other* side. The UDF/UDA/UVF unionist terrorists/paramilitaries/whatever noun you're most comfortable with. The ones the First Minister has been meeting with instead of the head of the police service in Northern Ireland. This isn't in dispute by anyone, it's freely being admitted. There's nobody even suggesting this is all an IRA resurgence 23 years after the GFA was signed (literally today, it's the 23rd anniversary).
> 
> The point is, they're the ones who *want* to be British. And they're setting the place on fire.



What is your perspective on the reason why? 

Some people are claiming it has nowt to do with Brexit......but there wasn't violence last year.

The DUP got thrown under a bus by Johnson and I'm guessing Brexit is causing a fair bit of frustration.

This political solution whereby NI gets UK tariff rates by some weird arrangement is unworkable


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## willsie01 (10 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> I voted to remain in the EU Robin but being fair I don't think anyone could honestly claim that those situations were caused by Brexit, all existed while the UK was a member of the EU.
> OK projections can be made that Brexit will make it worse but they are still projections not fact...yet!


Projections, yes, and subject to what happens when you make plans. There were projections for the U.K. made by people who wanted brexit and there were projections made by people who wanted to remain. Look at the credibility of the people making those projections is a good idea.


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## sploo (10 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> The DUP got thrown under a bus by Johnson and I'm guessing Brexit is causing a fair bit of frustration.


I know James O'Brien isn't exactly everyone's cup of tea, but he's nailed it with this:


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## Doug B (10 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I find it sad that Brexiters refuse to accept responsibility for NI border issue and instead blame the EU.






RobinBHM said:


> This hard Brexit, it directly the fault of this govt and those that voted them in.



Make your mind up, there are plenty of people who wanted Brexit but didn’t vote for Johnson’s crowd or his version of Brexit, that’s the problem with democracy


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## francovendee (10 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> There was a workable arrangement: stay in the customs union and Single Market.
> 
> No other workable opinions exist.
> Anybody that voted for the Boris Johnson deal voted for a customs border in the Irish Sea.
> ...


Quite, The northern Ireland protocol was agreed by the House and was negotiated with the EU not forced upon them. The UK chose to break the agreement and many are now trying to blame the EU for the troubles. When we chose to leave it meant there had to be a border somewhere, between north and south or in the sea. There was no other choice. 
If the EU or the UK decide to walk away from the deal and not ratify the deal there will still be a border.
All this and more were labelled 'project fear', the reality is the UK voted to leave and many of the warning are coming true.
The population were told by Johnson none of this would happen and there would be minimal hold ups at the border. I remember Jacob Rees Mogg asserting a technical solution to avoid the paperwork already existed. 
No sign of it, maybe he jumped the gun?


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## MarkDennehy (10 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> What is your perspective on the reason why?


Several things happening in conjunction and building up over the last two years, accelerating over the last 6-9 months - the impact of the NIP being suddenly and strongly felt by local businesses on top of the damage done by the pandemic and the damage that had already been done in some sectors by brexit, the DUP losing their kingmaker position with May's government without gaining the advantages they thought they'd get to offset a hard brexit, the way that the pandemic was handled (the DUP basically blocked the local government from governing as fallout from the ash-for-cash scandal which left the local civil service trying their best to cope but without the ability to make many decisions because legally that required the government), and as the criticism of the DUP mounted, their self-defence was to take a frankly controversial decision not to prosecute Sinn Fein MPs who attended a funeral in violation of the pandemic rules and make that a scapegoat. None of which is a single, isolateable trigger point, but all of which together basically made a pressure vessel without a safety valve.

Now understand, I don't live in NI. I live in a different country so my view of this is not going to have all the nuance and detail that people who do live there will have as a matter of course. But that's what we're seeing down here through the lens of our media and the people we'd know across the border.


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## Cooper (10 Apr 2021)

As commented on above there is trouble, as predicted, in Northern Ireland and also an imminent election in Scotland, which could result in independence. If Mr Johnson wished to resolve both issues, a possible solution would be to apply for membership to the European Free Trade Association. That would prevent the boarder in the Irish Sea, reduce the demand for Scottish independence and undo the damage to small businesses and that big tax payer the City of London, that his hard Brexit is causing. It would also save my daughter in Munich from having to pay import duties on her family’s birthday presents. I’m sure that few of the people who voted to leave the EU would notice the difference or care. It could also bring the country back together (and correspondents to this forum). This might cause Mr Johnson some slight embarrassment, though they way he lives his private life he seems immune to that.


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## RobinBHM (10 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> Make your mind up, there are plenty of people who wanted Brexit but didn’t vote for Johnson’s crowd or his version of Brexit, that’s the problem with democracy


The majority of people who wanted Brexit voted for Johnson, I can't say I've heard of any Brexiters saying they didn't want Brexit if it meant leaving the SM and CU. In fact many were calling for WTO....and still are.

Democracy only functions with a well informed public that are told the truth....both those things were and still are absent.


----------



## RobinBHM (10 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> Several things happening in conjunction and building up over the last two years, accelerating over the last 6-9 months - the impact of the NIP being suddenly and strongly felt by local businesses on top of the damage done by the pandemic and the damage that had already been done in some sectors by brexit, the DUP losing their kingmaker position with May's government without gaining the advantages they thought they'd get to offset a hard brexit, the way that the pandemic was handled (the DUP basically blocked the local government from governing as fallout from the ash-for-cash scandal which left the local civil service trying their best to cope but without the ability to make many decisions because legally that required the government), and as the criticism of the DUP mounted, their self-defence was to take a frankly controversial decision not to prosecute Sinn Fein MPs who attended a funeral in violation of the pandemic rules and make that a scapegoat. None of which is a single, isolateable trigger point, but all of which together basically made a pressure vessel without a safety valve.
> 
> Now understand, I don't live in NI. I live in a different country so my view of this is not going to have all the nuance and detail that people who do live there will have as a matter of course. But that's what we're seeing down here through the lens of our media and the people we'd know across the border.



Many thanks for that insight.

The reality is clearly more nuanced and multifactoral.....but nevertheless Brexit is the catalyst. 

Given the division Brexit has caused here in GB I suppose it's no surprise it's led to division in the other nations...NI and Scotland


----------



## Cabinetman (10 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> Don’t they use the Euro in Scotland and Wales instead of the £ ?


 You Americans, I don’t know lol. 
All the four countries of Britain use the pound southern Ireland being in the EU uses the euro, I don’t know but I suspect that a lot of shops in Northern Ireland will accept the Euro. If Scotland manages to leave the union they haven’t really said what they will do about having their own currency and it is expected they will just keep using the pound, until ? Nearly started a whole new thread there!


----------



## Phil Pascoe (10 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Democracy only functions with a well informed public that are told the truth....both those things were and still are absent.


absent on both sides. Ftfy.


----------



## Jake (10 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> Make your mind up, there are plenty of people who wanted Brexit but didn’t vote for Johnson’s crowd or his version of Brexit, that’s the problem with democracy



Back in the day when a second referendum was a possibility, my view was that there should be a two stage second referendum, the first to find the most popular of the main variants on an STV-type basis (ie each voter ranks in order, hard no deal, bare bones FTA, EFTA, etc) and then a yes/no on whatever variant won the popularity contest. I got loads of stick from some remainers and soft brexiters for advocating something that would put as recklessly stupid as hard brexit on a ballot paper, but although there was a pretty good chance it might have won the first stage, the chances it would have won through the second yes/no stage I think were infinitesmal.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (10 Apr 2021)

Which would have been fine, had the other options being staying in with or without the Euro, staying in with or without Schengen, with or without a federal state etc. A little honesty on that side would have been nice.


----------



## Jake (10 Apr 2021)

Sure, there could have been a third one with should we abandon our veto on Schengen, Euro, federalism, European army, no harm in that.


----------



## RobinBHM (10 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> absent on both sides. Ftfy.


There's no equivalence between vote Leave and remain campaign.

Right wing rags have been gaslighting the nation with lies about EU for decades.

I agree the remain campaign was dishonest in its use of project fear....although that was an exaggeration rather than a lie. Other than that there has been little dishonesty about remain.

However the Leave side have been lying since and before 2016 and still continue now.

If Brexit is a success, why gas this govt spent £250 million on propaganda this year. And why do they need to continue lying.


----------



## RobinBHM (10 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Which would have been fine, had the other options being staying in with or without the Euro, staying in with or without Schengen, with or without a federal state etc. A little honesty on that side would have been nice.


I don't understand, those things weren't part of the referendum.

What part are you claiming is dishonest?


----------



## Noel (11 Apr 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> You Americans, I don’t know lol.
> All the four countries of Britain use the pound southern Ireland being in the EU uses the euro, I don’t know but I suspect that a lot of shops in Northern Ireland will accept the Euro. If Scotland manages to leave the union they haven’t really said what they will do about having their own currency and it is expected they will just keep using the pound, until ? Nearly started a whole new thread there!



Thanks for the detailed info, good to know about British money and the Euro thing. Can be very confusing for some.


----------



## Trainee neophyte (11 Apr 2021)

Cooper said:


> an imminent election in Scotland, which could result in independence.



My limited understanding of Scottish independence, mostly obtained from Craig Murray's blog is that until Nicolas Sturgeon is forced out there will never be any kind of independence - she is too enamoured of the perks of being First Minister, funded by the rest of the UK. Or she may be controlled opposition run by London. Either way, despite endless talk of leaving, she apparently has no enthusiasm to actually make it happen, hence the contrived ousting of Salmond using anonymous claims of sexual misconduct. Allegedly, anyway. Read Mr Murray's blog for more detail, but note that he is extremely active in Scottish independence and may have one or two axes to grind. I read his stuff more because he is the only person on the planet who seems to remember that Julian Assange is _still_ being held in solitary confinement, without trial. Scottish independence is not on my list of important subjects.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I don't understand, those things weren't part of the referendum.
> 
> What part are you claiming is dishonest?


Of course they weren't part of the referendum - that was exactly my point. 

The EEC/EU has lied perpetually since its inception about its intentions - stupid people still think its a cosy little trading association and not the political union it was designed from day one to become, and is becoming more so by the day. From the German press in January -

In the end — as Germany’s most respected politician today, Wolfgang Schaeuble, the President of our Bundestag Parliament, admits — the urge is to align fiscal and budget policies. This will centralise the EU to such an extent that not only separate national governments, but even the nations themselves will become a thing of the past, at least in all practical and legal senses.

I await the "Ah, yes, but ..."s


----------



## Jacob (11 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Of course they weren't part of the referendum - that was exactly my point.
> 
> The EEC/EU has lied perpetually since its inception about its intentions - stupid people still think its a cosy little trading association and not the political union it was designed from day one to become, and is becoming more so by the day. From the German press in January -
> 
> ...


It wasn't "designed from day one" it evolved out of a series of decisions, good, bad and indifferent.
That individuals or groups had their own ideas about how it should develop was perfectly OK - they weren't necessarily going to be implemented not least because we were major players ourselves, part of the decision making process.
Feebly dropping out and leaving them to get on with all these awful things seems to be about the most unimaginative and ineffective thing we could have done. Also irresponsible, if they really have all these weird intentions.

Nothing much to show for Brexit so far, in spite of 5 years of negotiations and the oven ready deal, so brexiters have to resort to ever more abstract and improbable justifications of their position! No wonder so many of them want us to shut up! 

PS ".....even the nations themselves will become a thing of the past, at least in all practical and legal senses....." was certainly working to the advantage of Ireland, with re-unification coming in by the back door unannounced and uncontested, and there are/were other hot spots and divisions in Europe, now ameliorated.








The Western Balkans | Fact Sheets on the European Union | European Parliament


Read about the Western Balkans. Fact Sheets provide an overview of European integration and the role of the European Parliament.



www.europarl.europa.eu


----------



## Doug B (11 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> And, having interviewed and employed tens of people over the years, I would respectfully say that if you think it's not your fault if you employ someone and they turn out to be bad then you really shouldn't be doing any recruitment!



yes but when I have employed folks in the past I’ve not been limited to two candidates both with little or no qualifications for the job in hand supplied from parties with dubious past history & felt somehow duty bound to pick one of them.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It wasn't "designed from day one ...



Sorry - poor choice of word. Intended would have been better.


----------



## sploo (11 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> yes but when I have employed folks in the past I’ve not been limited to two candidates both with little or no qualifications for the job in hand supplied from parties with dubious past history & felt somehow duty bound to pick one of them.


Then pick the option based on the evidence at hand. E.g. on one side you had career economists and trade experts saying "it'll likely be bad", and on the other side you had a bunch of politicians whose economic politics saw them opposed to measures such as social services... and yet they were standing in front of a bus claiming they could put money into the NHS. 

I mean, one of them was IDS, who at the time was best known in the public eye for killing the disabled as part of his running of the DWP.

Essentially, it would be like the head of the National Rifle Association in the US standing on a platform of strict gun control; it wouldn't require extensive political knowledge to think "something's probably fishy here".


----------



## Doug B (11 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Then pick the option based on the evidence at hand. E.g. on one side you had career economists and trade experts saying "it'll likely be bad", and on the other side you had a bunch of politicians whose economic politics saw them opposed to measures such as social services... and yet they were standing in front of a bus claiming they could put money into the NHS.
> 
> I mean, one of them was IDS, who at the time was best known in the public eye for killing the disabled as part of his running of the DWP.
> 
> Essentially, it would be like the head of the National Rifle Association in the US standing on a platform of strict gun control; it wouldn't require extensive political knowledge to think "something's probably fishy here".


Ah so either way I end up with an option I don’t want.


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## sploo (11 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> Ah so either way I end up with an option I don’t want.


Well, one of those offered you an option you wanted, but wasn't only not true but also caused significantly more damage. The other was a status quo you didn't like, which had a number of abstract negatives that don't really exist.

So, I agree that neither choice was attractive if you preferred out, but only one was damaging for pretty much everyone.


----------



## doctor Bob (11 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> And, having interviewed and employed tens of people over the years, I would respectfully say that if you think it's not your fault if you employ someone and they turn out to be bad then you really shouldn't be doing any recruitment!



Don't beat yourself up about it, lady luck says you'll get one right in the end. Could be your manner?
Recruiting is difficult, often the initial period with the new employee is complex and takes some getting used to, settling in as such, usually it's best to give it time rather than pineapple on to them in the first 2 weeks. A few existing employees get the hump because it's not how "Joe" used to do it, very difficult to win these people over, they always want Joe back. I try and get rid of the ones which group together and moan, need a team.


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## RobinBHM (11 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Well, one of those offered you an option you wanted, but wasn't only not true but also caused significantly more damage. The other was a status quo you didn't like, which had a number of abstract negatives that don't really exist.
> 
> So, I agree that neither choice was attractive if you preferred out, but only one was damaging for pretty much everyone.


sadly the brexit debate hardly discussed how the EU works, the positives and negatives of membership

making a case for the status quo is difficult when very few people actually know what the status quo is....and still dont. 

brexit debate was won with emotive slogans not information, facts, evidence.

I agree this country needs to move on, its done now......but the only way to move on is to understand reality.

Blaming the Northern Ireland issue as a fault of the EU -is not a solution. The solution is for brexiters to start to understand how he Single Market works and what changes need to be made to solve the border issue. All the time we keep banging the "wont accept any rules from Brussels" we wont move forward.

It is brexers who are actually the negative ones and cant move forward.


----------



## MarkDennehy (11 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Sorry - poor choice of word. Intended would have been better.


I mean, even then that view is problematical since the idea of an "EU federal state" was being debated publicly before I was born so it was hardly a secret that it was an option - but the path from there to here was a series of negotiated treaties which were not mandatory and which were all (eventually) agreed to unanimously by the member states (even if a number of times there had to be re-negotiations because some member states didn't like the content of them, like when Ireland voted no in our referendum on the Lisbon treaty and when the Danes voted no in their referendum on the Maastrict treaty).
It's a bit hard for the EU to be a nefarious plot to secretly entangle the UK in a federal state against its will when the EU can't compel the UK to sign treaties for forty years in order to accomplish that.

Now should you guys have had a referendum for each treaty the way most member states did? I mean, I'd say yes, but I'm used to us having to have a referendum for any such treaty over here, and we've gotten used to referendums and we run them a little differently to the way the UK has run theirs (for example, there's no public body in the UK charged with delivering a pamphlet to every registered voter setting forth the vote and the choices without bias). Also, that's something between yourselves and your government because, and this is mildly ironic, the UK is a soverign nation and the EU can't order it to hold a referendum to ratify an EU treaty if the UK government doesn't want to do that.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> for example, there's no public body in the UK charged with delivering a pamphlet to every registered voter setting forth the vote and the choices without bias ...



The government wouldn't have dared publish an unbiased pamphlet. It would have destroyed its case. A senior Labour politician at the time was asked why the remain camp didn't make a better case for staying in and he replied because for most people it couldn't. (Unfortunately I can't remember his name.)


----------



## sploo (11 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The government wouldn't have dared publish an unbiased pamphlet. It would have destroyed its case. A senior Labour politician at the time was asked why the remain camp didn't make a better case for staying in and he replied because for most people it couldn't. (Unfortunately I can't remember his name.)


Out of interest, what do you believe (roughly) that unbiased, fact based, pamphlets would have contained; for both sides of the argument?


----------



## WannabeeCarpenter (11 Apr 2021)

Late to the party here....

I work for a major UK/EU food brand and am possibly about to lose a large Irish client because of the duties & documentation now required for us to ship products. The client has agreed to cover the duties for a short time but after that is expecting my Co to pay them. If we do that it'll hugely reduce our margins almost to the point of being unprofitable.

The level of paperwork needed to ship certain products is now beyond ridiculous and in many cases it attracts substantial costs. It even goes as far as needing the parameters of pasteurisation temperatures and certificates signed by vets where animal derivatives are an ingredient.

We/the general consumer have/has no idea what's involved and/or how it's going to impact on the cost of some goods we buy, especially food.


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## RobinBHM (11 Apr 2021)

WannabeeCarpenter said:


> Late to the party here....
> 
> I work for a major UK/EU food brand and am possibly about to lose a large Irish client because of the duties & documentation now required for us to ship products. The client has agreed to cover the duties for a short time but after that is expecting my Co to pay them. If we do that it'll hugely reduce our margins almost to the point of being unprofitable.
> 
> ...


Im sorry to hear that -its is unfortunately a story being repeated throughout the country.

the impact is worst for SMEs.


----------



## RobinBHM (11 Apr 2021)

As Ive mentioned, I have a gripe with those claiming "we must move on"....for the simple reason until the truth is told, we cant find solutions

here is a news article so typical of the misinformation put out by sections of the media:
*'My profit has been wiped out by a £250,000 cost': EU's new export rules leave small British firms struggling*








EU's new export rules leave small British firms struggling


British exporters like Jerry Lawson of Frogbike are 'wading through treacle', navigating labyrinthine new paperwork to deliver to the EU as they suffer mounting problems.




www.dailymail.co.uk





it is blatant gaslighting.

For clarity, these are not new rules. They are existing rules. What has changed is the UK has moved from being in the Single Market to becoming a 3rd country.


I wonder if any brexiters on this forum would agree that the way to move forward is for honesty to replace the emotive sloganeering.

Until people accept the truth about the reality of trade barriers between NI and GB we cant build any solutions


----------



## Noel (11 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> As Ive mentioned, I have a gripe with those claiming "we must move on"....for the simple reason until the truth is told, we cant find solutions
> 
> here is a news article so typical of the misinformation put out by sections of the media:
> *'My profit has been wiped out by a £250,000 cost': EU's new export rules leave small British firms struggling*
> ...




One of the DM commenters, Big Dave, has the answer, seems reasonable.........:



Dave, Chorleywood, about an hour ago

So WE ban EU goods, that will learn THEM. What part of Britain First do these communist continentals not understand? All the best, UKIPPER Dave (Continuity UKIP)


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## doctor Bob (11 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> here is a news article so typical of the misinformation put out by sections of the media:
> *'My profit has been wiped out by a £250,000 cost': EU's new export rules leave small British firms struggling*
> 
> 
> ...



400 bikes a day, 146000 bikes per year, extra cost £1.70 per bike. something is not right if on £300 -£700 bikes your profit is 0.3%.

Looking at their accounts they make a lot more than £250000 a year.
Just a crappy story all round.
I think the right and left media are guilty of over egging it, Guardian, Mail, LBC (totally unlistenable to at present, James o'Brian awful, David Lammy shameful)

As are we all, very very binary, demands, demands, demands ............... I've been very busy with family stuff past week. Coming back to this thread for a peak every now and again, have we got anywhere, have u sorted it yet.


----------



## WannabeeCarpenter (11 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Im sorry to hear that -its is unfortunately a story being repeated throughout the country.
> 
> the impact is worst for SMEs.



Oh I get that completely and they're the ones I feel for the most. I've sold to Independent retailers for 25 years and they're my passion.....


----------



## Daniel2 (11 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> 400 bikes a day, 146000 bikes per year, extra cost £1.70 per bike. something is not right if on £300 -£700 bikes your profit is 0.3%.
> 
> Looking at their accounts they make a lot more than £250000 a year.
> Just a crappy story all round.
> ...



Consensus is imminent, I'm sure.


----------



## Jacob (11 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Consensus is imminent, I'm sure.


We've drawn a blank on any brexit advantages so far. 
Early days, it's only been 5 years in the making and the oven ready deal is still under wraps - soon be ready for take off?


----------



## julianf (11 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> We've drawn a blank on any brexit advantages so far.
> Early days, it's only been 5 years in the making and the oven ready deal is still under wraps - soon be ready for take off?



I do wonder if we couldn't have had the referendum, leave wins, we "leave", but carry over everything.

Would have given everyone their "sovereignty" (whatever that actually is) and we could have carried on as before, albeit having less control than we used to.


----------



## sploo (11 Apr 2021)

julianf said:


> I do wonder if we couldn't have had the referendum, leave wins, we "leave", but carry over everything.
> 
> Would have given everyone their "sovereignty" (whatever that actually is) and we could have carried on as before, albeit having less control than we used to.


The problem is that "leave means leave"; in that no form of Brexit was actually palatable to a majority of leave voters, because as soon as any deal was "made flesh" you'd realise the gaping differences between expectation and reality. I don't think any of the pro-leave camps would have accepted the above, and to be fair I couldn't blame them. Not that any alternative option was better mind.


----------



## julianf (11 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> The problem is that "leave means leave"; in that no form of Brexit was actually palatable to a majority of leave voters, because as soon as any deal was "made flesh" you'd realise the gaping differences between expectation and reality. I don't think any of the pro-leave camps would have accepted the above, and to be fair I couldn't blame them. Not that any alternative option was better mind.



They, largely, seem to have accepted the current mess though? Maybe if there was no disruption they would not have felt that they had gotten their monies worth... : (


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## Jacob (11 Apr 2021)

julianf said:


> They, largely, seem to have accepted the current mess though? ....


Not really.
They say get over it, move on, stop talking about it. 
They know its a bag of **** and are hoping something will turn up - most likely someone to blame, which will be the EU itself, Covid (a lucky break!) then the remoaners for not grasping all the new found opportunities, then the Irish for causing a lot of bother and so on
Eventually blame may filter down to Johnson, Banks, Farage, Cameron, the right wing media, the weakness of govt and the dodgy money behind the whole **** show.
It's all a lot worse than it looks.


----------



## Amateur (12 Apr 2021)

I read this morning that the EU have not ratified the Brexit deal and are holding back because of rules we have broken.

Anybody else read that, or is it a load of rubbish?


----------



## sploo (12 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Eventually blame may filter down to Johnson, Banks, Farage, Cameron, the right wing media, the weakness of govt and the dodgy money behind the whole **** show.


Sadly, I very, very, much doubt that'll happen. As evidenced by Robin's reference to a Daily Fail article talking about the "_EU's new export rules_", the gaslighting and blame shifting will simply continue. It's always someone else's fault, basically.


----------



## Droogs (12 Apr 2021)

Yep, the withdrawal arrangement hasn't been ratified by the member nations of the EU and has been stipulated as being the result of the UK breaking the treaty and international law twice in relation to the agreement. Well done PM Doris du Cockwomble (I'm really Turkish) Johnstone and Jacob (I live in 1863) Really Moronic MP


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## Jacob (12 Apr 2021)

There's a lot of grunting and chest beating in the Daily Moron Boris told to rip up Brexit deal as Britain waits for EU ratification - 'Pull plug NOW!'


----------



## Terry - Somerset (12 Apr 2021)

Courtesy of the Daily M article:

*A huge 98 percent (10,234 readers) urged the Prime Minister to pull the plug on the post-Brexit trade deal altogether if the EU once again delays its ratification.*

*The remaining two percent (211 readers) disagreed, while less than one percent (54 readers) were undecided.*

I'm surprised 99% of their readership actually understood the question!!


----------



## shed9 (12 Apr 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> I'm surprised 99% of their readership actually understood the question!!


I'm surprised 99% of their readership can read in the first place.


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## Amateur (12 Apr 2021)

shed9 said:


> I'm surprised 99% of their readership can read in the first place.



Can you tell me what you just wrote?


----------



## Noel (12 Apr 2021)

@Amateur Brought your other thread into this one, best keep it all in one place.


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## Amateur (12 Apr 2021)

Noel said:


> @Amateur Brought your other thread into this one, best keep it all in one place.


Ok no probs


----------



## shed9 (12 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Can you tell me what you just wrote?


It doesn't matter as long as you're angry about it...


----------



## RobinBHM (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> A senior Labour politician at the time was asked why the remain camp didn't make a better case for staying in and he replied because for most people it couldn't



It is indeed hard to explain to people the benefits of EU membership when the vast majority of the public were and still are blissfully unaware of them.

Ive yet to have a discussion with a brexiter who has any understanding of how the Single Market works.

The common rulebook is misunderstood and is commonly called "EU bureaucracy" 
What the EU have done is take national standards, industry standards and written them into a standard format so they are harmonised.....thats a lot of work and in that sense the EU are bureaucratic. 

BUT, once those standards are all common to the 28 countries...each business can trade freely without trade barriers.

It enable small and medium businesses and consumers to buy and sell throughout EU with no trade barriers


In simple terms the Single Market front loads the bureaucracy so businesses can sell and buy with no barriers




And the reason why a politician cant make a case for it: because its technical, its complicated, its boring and so not easy to sell as a political slogan.

however "get back control" "get back sovereignty" etc etc is easy to sell.....even though it is meaningless and falls apart under scrutiny and is demonstrably untrue


----------



## RobinBHM (12 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> Ah so either way I end up with an option I don’t want.


in terms of Ireland, brexiters were told they could have their brexit and there would be no border......which was a lie.

luckily our brexit govt and brexit supporters have a real positive solution: blame the EU and or claim its "teething troubles"


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It is indeed hard to explain to people the benefits of EU membership when the vast majority of the public were and still are blissfully unaware of them.



Can you name one good thing that's come out of the EU that couldn't have been done without the existence of the EU?


----------



## julianf (12 Apr 2021)

Would this post be on topic - 






Interparcel | Parcel Tracking | GB1196750530







uk.interparcel.com





Customs forms were filled out correctly. Recipient was never contacted, and, indeed, tried many times to contact the relevant departments.
Item has now just vanished.

This is what business has to deal with.


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## julianf (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Can you name one good thing that's come out of the EU that couldn't have been done without the existence of the EU?



Quite obviously you could have had the same level of co-operation without a central body / title. 

I mean, its not a mathematical impossibility.

Or were you wanting to discuss probabilities?


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2021)

It got to Barcelona, so it's not the fault of Britain or Brexit.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2021)

julianf said:


> Quite obviously you could have had the same level of co-operation without a central body / title.
> 
> I mean, its not a mathematical impossibility.
> 
> Or were you wanting to discuss probabilities?


Straightforward question.


----------



## sploo (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Can you name one good thing that's come out of the EU that couldn't have been done without the existence of the EU?


That probably depends on what you define "the EU" to be?

I mean, you could have this useful harmonisation of standards (leading to frictionless trade) by having some other group of nations come together to agree on a common set of standards. Obviously then you need some way of discussing, negotiating and voting on changes, and bodies that handle disputes in a way that the various members consider to be fair. Pretty quickly you start to approach some sort of Union of European countries... if you get my point.


----------



## Cooper (12 Apr 2021)

Lots of passion on both sides of the discussion and also lots of reasoned points of view. What I am interested in is have any of us changed our minds about the referendum result, as a consequence of Johnson's extremely hard Brexit deal? Are they any remainers who are happy with the deal? Are there any leavers who wish we were still members?
Personally I am a passionate European and really resent losing my citizenship but would be prepared for the UK to be part of EFTA as we were before joining the Common Market. That would solve the Northern Ireland boarder issue and the difficulties of small exporting businesses etc. I know to do this would cause some embarrassment to Johnson but the way he leads his private life he seems immune to that.


----------



## julianf (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Straightforward question.



I know my mobile operator has put up their roaming charges by about 300% since Brexit. So, if you want an easy, insignificant one, there's one for starters.

I mention this to avoid the "well we could have done that anyway" response, as, this is an example of something that was done as a result of the EU, and has now been lost as a result of us leaving. So, clearly, it was as a result of the EU, and not just "something we could have done regardless"

The problem is your question is generally unprovable - anything that anyone mentions can be responded to with the comment "well we could have done that". Its one of those things that just can not be proven.

You can look at a massive list of things that have been improved by the EU governance, and then watch issues arrise as we move away from that cooperation, but, again, your actual question is not a "Straightforward question" at all, as it can have no provable answer, without, maybe a time machine and a parallel universe for testing.


What is, however, provable is the troubles we are facing as we move away from the EU. A tiny personal, but very provable example is my tracking link posted above. There would have been no customs check prior to our departure, and therefore the mode of failure would not have been present.


----------



## RobinBHM (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Can you name one good thing that's come out of the EU that couldn't have been done without the existence of the EU?


Yes

The Single Market.
It made is as easy to order something from Bristol as Berlin.


The ability to freely live, work, retire in 28 countries.

The considerable transformation of Eastern European countries

The Everything But Arms programme helping poor African countries.


----------



## julianf (12 Apr 2021)

Cooper said:


> Lots of passion on both sides of the discussion and also lots of reasoned points of view. What I am interested in is have any of us changed our minds about the referendum result, as a consequence of Johnson's extremely hard Brexit deal? Are they any remainers who are happy with the deal? Are there any leavers who wish we were still members?
> Personally I am a passionate European and really resent losing my citizenship but would be prepared for the UK to be part of EFTA as we were before joining the Common Market. That would solve the Northern Ireland boarder issue and the difficulties of small exporting businesses etc. I know to do this would cause some embarrassment to Johnson but the way he leads his private life he seems immune to that.



Common market required synchronisation of standards, and good old england wasnt going to be told what to do by no Johnny foreigner.

(which is the basic, arrogant, nature of brexit)

So now we are not in the common market, but have to synchronise standards in order to be able to trade (ie same thing) but with all the additional complications.

But "the french" cant tell us what to do! (they just wont buy our stuff unless we do what they say - and now, of course, we have no say in it either - the irony of "taking back control")


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Yes
> 
> The Single Market.
> It made is as easy to order something from Bristol as Berlin.
> ...


All of which didn't need the existence of the EU.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Apr 2021)

julianf said:


> Common market required synchronisation of standards, and good old england wasnt going to be told what to do by no Johnny foreigner.



Curious, really - we abide by the standards of every Country we trade with.


----------



## rafezetter (12 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> It is indeed hard to explain to people the benefits of EU membership when the vast majority of the public were and still are blissfully unaware of them.
> 
> Ive yet to have a discussion with a brexiter who has any understanding of how the Single Market works.
> 
> ...




Nice - all good and all but the EU is NO LONGER JUST ABOUT THE SINGLE MARKET.

If it was we would still be part of it - and I would have voted to STAY, abd I'm pretty confident most other brexiters would have as well - but the reality is it isn't, just the SM and hasn't been for quite some time, or would you care to explain why there are still several countries that have only "one foot" inside the EU door and the other one firmly out. They joined after us, saw that they only wanted the "single market" bit and ignored the rest.

We would have liked a renegotiated agreement where we had the same deal, but the EU - in thier "infinite wisdom", and I use the term very loosly, decided it was stay or leave, with nothint else on the table, hoping to call our bluff, well, they lost and are now being asshats about it.

Tell me again how the "the EU are our friends".

Those leading the EU are idiots, they SHOULD have just allowed the UK to move to a similar deal and kept the trade, but they didn't for fear that many other countries would follow suit EVEN THOUGH THAT WAS THE ENTIRE REASON FOR IT'S CREATION IN THE FIRST PLACE, and they would have lost thier other forms of leverage, and benefits like free travel of people, including all those leaving thier countries, because they own economies are failing and come to the UK and Germany for work.

It gave them an easy reason not to do much about it, AND those people working outside France and Spain and Poland, were still sending oney earned in the UK back to thier home countries, thus sucking even more life out of the UK - which they were perfecty happy about.

And no, I don't beleive there are more UK people working in the EU than the other way around, thus the "money funnel" is to our benefit, not by a mile.

The EU has been treating the UK as a resource to be mined until empty, our fishing, our jobs, our housing, our schools and our NHS.

They told us we had to keep OUR borders open so that those that would otherwise live in Spain or France or Germany, come here instead where it was historically much easier for them to get all the benefits of a first world nation.

I firmly beleive the EU in it's current form WILL fail, because "the plan" is too at odds with many of the member nations needs.

It should have just stuck to the single market - but Germany (as usual) got greedy.


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## willsie01 (12 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> As Ive mentioned, I have a gripe with those claiming "we must move on"....for the simple reason until the truth is told, we cant find solutions
> 
> here is a news article so typical of the misinformation put out by sections of the media:
> *'My profit has been wiped out by a £250,000 cost': EU's new export rules leave small British firms struggling*
> ...


What? There are brexiteers on this forum? Weird. I assumed those joining this forum, given its nature, would be those inclined to rely on empirical evidence.


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## Jester129 (12 Apr 2021)

It was supposedly a Common Market that we joined all of those years ago. It changed to the EEC and then to the EU.
A European Union ruled generally by Merkel & Macron (and look how he turned on us to make himself appear strong in an election year).

Personally I'm just sick and tired of someone that was allowed back in here diving into Brexit at every opportunity, irrespective of what the thread is to do with! Please MODERATORS, do something about it. DoctorBob, I really want to say more, but I can't.


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## sploo (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> All of which didn't need the existence of the EU.


But as already pointed out in this thread; they came about _with_ the EU, and otherwise would have required some sort of other group of nations getting together (with necessary rules, votes, agreements, etc. etc.); all of which gets you back to something that looks like the EU.


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## sploo (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Curious, really - we abide by the standards of every Country we trade with.


Not sure what you're getting at with that? But, yes, we probably do abide by the standards of countries we deal with; it's just a darn sight easier when all those countries (including ourselves) have the same standards - as it means the burden of bureaucracy is essentially removed from those just trying to get on with trading.


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## julianf (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> It got to Barcelona, so it's not the fault of Britain or Brexit.



I didn't even see this comment before. Its amazing.

I know, in your head, its the foreigners fault again. And i can see your logic there, clearly.

But the reality is that its brexit thats now causing me to have packages lost by foreign customs departments, as, prior, i didnt have to deal with them at all.

Customs departments loose goods. Our own internal mail system is not infallible. The more checks, bottle necks, paperwork, the more issues. Be it at home, or abroad.

Brexit has caused more of these checks, bottlenecks, paperwork etc so has increased the number of issues. I know you're still feeling "but its the Spanish" and, yes, clearly the item disappeared in Spain... Being processed through a system that just wasn't needed to be used by us previously.


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## RobinBHM (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Curious, really - we abide by the standards of every Country we trade with.



and which of those countries have clubbed together to harmonise standards to remove trade barriers?

A =27 counties of the European Union


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## RobinBHM (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> All of which didn't need the existence of the EU.


yeah....nicely set up strawman.

one thing though, you rather prove my point: brexiters dont understand the Single Market and dont want to.


----------



## Jacob (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Can you name one good thing that's come out of the EU that couldn't have been done without the existence of the EU?


One big one which was certainly backed up by the EU was of course GFA. In fact the pacification of Europe is the big bonus and sufficient reason on its own.
There were of course a whole mass of mutually beneficial agreements over thousands of issues, not just trade but education, research, cultural, free movement, alignment over health and welfare care, alignment over higher standards for safety, food, and so on.
Arguably these could all have been done without EU membership - but membership was the vehicle, the means to the end, the seat at the table. Choosing not to being a participant in the process of formulating these things is basically pretty stupid.


----------



## sploo (12 Apr 2021)

rafezetter said:


> Nice - all good and all but the EU is NO LONGER JUST ABOUT THE SINGLE MARKET.
> 
> If it was we would still be part of it - and I would have voted to STAY, abd I'm pretty confident most other brexiters would have as well - but the reality is it isn't, just the SM and hasn't been for quite some time, or would you care to explain why there are still several countries that have only "one foot" inside the EU door and the other one firmly out. They joined after us, saw that they only wanted the "single market" bit and ignored the rest.
> 
> ...


It's hard to know where to even start with that lot, given it appears to refer to a parallel universe.

Mining our NHS... by supplying lots of staff to help it run...

Keeping "OUR" borders open so people could live here instead of Spain... you have been following the news recently about those Brits living in Spain?


----------



## Cooper (12 Apr 2021)

rafezetter said:


> Those leading the EU are idiots, they SHOULD have just allowed the UK to move to a similar deal and kept the trade


That sounds like the deal Cameron brought back from his negotiations with the EU but was rejected by his party. They even let the UK put a break on immigration from the EU (if it could be shown to damage employment opportunities here), which is the real reason lots of people wanted out in the first place.


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## [email protected] (12 Apr 2021)

View from the continent: 
Two misconceptions about the EU that I hope are worth commenting on.
Firstly, the strength of the EU is not in what it is but in what it removed, namely different barriers to trade and movement. Unfortunately, that the main strength is the absence of things makes the EU also difficult to defend by politicians.
Secondly, and this is the more important thing in my view: the existence and functioning of the EU has made it extremely unlikely that there will ever be war again between for example France and Germany. And just imagine a situation when a new war on the Balkans has become unthinkable, which will be the case when all Balkan countries have become EU members. Compared to this gain, all other discussions on the pros and cons of the EU are somewhat trivial in my view.

Simon


----------



## sploo (12 Apr 2021)

Cooper said:


> That sounds like the deal Cameron brought back from his negotiations with the EU but was rejected by his party. They even let the UK put a break on immigration from the EU (if it could be shown to damage employment opportunities here), which is the real reason lots of people wanted out in the first place.


Ironically, there is an EU rule (Article 7, if I recall correctly) that essentially states that an EU citizen moving to another EU state must be able to support themselves financially (i.e. "have a job"). UK governments' have chosen to ignore that rule - which rather sinks the trope that immigration from EU states into the UK is a burden that's forced upon us, and of course, the trope that we were slaves to all EU rules. But, as we've seen time and again, facts and evidence are not valid submissions on this topic.


----------



## MarkDennehy (12 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Can you name one good thing that's come out of the EU that couldn't have been done without the existence of the EU?


CERN and dozens of research projects that boosted our universities, Euratom and all the MRIs and other advanced imaging as well as radiation therapy it enabled, half the roads in my country, the absence of a war between france, england or germany for the first time in a very long historical period, erasmus for students to go study anywhere in the EU that they wanted to, immigration from all over the EU so our food here finally advanced past "boil it till it's shoe leather", the EU courts system so we could hold our own government to account when they did silly things like white slavery and selling children in illegal adoptions and making abortions illegal because Rome said to, the GDPR which is the best framework we currently have to try to prevent Joe Public from being prey for the FAANGs, the ability to travel anywhere on the continent without six different official documents. Oh, and economic prosperity which mean neither I nor either of my two siblings had to emigrate forever. 

I mean, that's just off the top of my head in about - checks watch - two minutes of typing? There's more, but I'm not sure how relevant it'll be to the UK's experience.


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## MarkDennehy (12 Apr 2021)

(And yes, you can say CERN and Euratom aren't EU-specific projects, but you're kinda missing the question because Phil was asking what couldn't have been done without the EU existing. If the EU and the EEC hadn't existed, CERN and Euratom couldn't have gotten to where they are today because they would have had to both do their jobs _and_ convince all of europe to do what they do in the EU today, namely cooperate in large shared projects, which Europe just wasn't very good at before the EU - sooner or later, a good idea descended into nationalism and then went kaput. The existence of a Europe-wide bureacracy is a nontrivial level of Good Thing for some projects, just because of the inertia it carries - if it's easier to work in a project with others than to declare you'll build your own large hadron collider, then you get large hadron colliders faster).


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## Jacob (12 Apr 2021)

Good question Phil and plenty of answers! Big issues too, not just trivia.
So - do we have any answers to the other question about advantages of Brexit? Seems to have gone quiet on that front.
Nul points so far, surely somebody can think of something?


----------



## Doug B (12 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Ironically, there is an EU rule (Article 7, if I recall correctly) that essentially states that an EU citizen moving to another EU state must be able to support themselves financially (i.e. "have a job"). UK governments' have chosen to ignore that rule - which rather sinks the trope that immigration from EU states into the UK is a burden that's forced upon us, and of course, the trope that we were slaves to all EU rules. But, as we've seen time and again, facts and evidence are not valid submissions on this topic.


I think quite a few perceived problems with EU policies over the years boil down to poor implementation by both main political parties


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## sploo (12 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I think quite a few perceived problems with EU policies over the years boil down to poor implementation by both main political parties


That's probably a fair summary. A big problem is that "the EU" has been used as a punchbag for years; it's a great source of "dumb bureaucrat" type stories in the media (whether having some grain of truth or not), and a convenient target for certain politicians to blame for the country's ills. Conversely, it's not much of a story to write about the good things, and certainly no politician is going to say "hey plebs, we wanted to do something that'd probably screw you over, but the EU made some rules to stop it - aren't they great!"


----------



## Droogs (12 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Good question Phil and plenty of answers! Big issues too, not just trivia.
> So - do we have any answers to the other question about advantages of Brexit? Seems to have gone quiet on that front.
> Nul points so far, surely somebody can think of something?


The German Bath towel industry is about to collapse which means Manchester can restart the cotton mills at pre Victorian wage rates whenever they like


----------



## powertools (12 Apr 2021)

rafezetter said:


> Nice - all good and all but the EU is NO LONGER JUST ABOUT THE SINGLE MARKET.
> 
> If it was we would still be part of it - and I would have voted to STAY, abd I'm pretty confident most other brexiters would have as well - but the reality is it isn't, just the SM and hasn't been for quite some time, or would you care to explain why there are still several countries that have only "one foot" inside the EU door and the other one firmly out. They joined after us, saw that they only wanted the "single market" bit and ignored the rest.
> 
> ...




All very good points that I could not have explained but I am afraid that the remainers won't reply.
THere is no way that I would have voted for trading problems but there is no way I would have voted remain with all the other things that we have to accept in order to continue with a sensible trading relationship.


----------



## RobinBHM (12 Apr 2021)

rafezetter said:


> still several countries that have only "one foot" inside the EU door and the other one firmly out. They joined after us, saw that they only wanted the "single market" bit and ignored the rest.


that isnt really true -but a handy strawman argument.

the only countries in the Single Market but not full membership are: Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. All are tiny economies and have no worthwhile comparisons to make. 



rafezetter said:


> and are now being asshats about it


that is incorrect -this is a common brexiters narrative. What you dont want to admit is that when UK "took back control", so did the other side...and the EU are 6x bigger and have far more leverage. 



rafezetter said:


> Tell me again how the "the EU are our friends"


the EU has constantly offered extensions, repeatedly made suggestions to reduce trade damage on leaving...but the ideologically driven govt insisted on the hardest of brexits

the question you should be asking is "how has the UK been friends to the EU" ...how do you think decades of gaslighting by the UK press has helped...or the UK govt playing the EU blame game. 

Perhaps you might like to answer how you think the brexit MEPS behaved in the EU parliament.


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## RobinBHM (12 Apr 2021)

rafezetter said:


> The EU has been treating the UK as a resource to be mined until empty, our fishing, our jobs, our housing, our schools and our NHS


in the above sentence please replace "EU" with the word "Our Govt"........then it is factually correct. 


Seriously Rafezetter, do you really want me to explain how your sentence is totally untrue?
all those problems are created by domestic policies -No doubt by the very government you vote for


----------



## RobinBHM (12 Apr 2021)

[email protected] said:


> View from the continent:
> Two misconceptions about the EU that I hope are worth commenting on.
> Firstly, the strength of the EU is not in what it is but in what it removed, namely different barriers to trade and movement. Unfortunately, that the main strength is the absence of things makes the EU also difficult to defend by politicians.
> Secondly, and this is the more important thing in my view: the existence and functioning of the EU has made it extremely unlikely that there will ever be war again between for example France and Germany. And just imagine a situation when a new war on the Balkans has become unthinkable, which will be the case when all Balkan countries have become EU members. Compared to this gain, all other discussions on the pros and cons of the EU are somewhat trivial in my view.
> ...



many thanks for your input -I think it is really useful to get views from people in mainland Europe.

I think it helps puts things in perspective 

I hope covid is not too bad in Groningen, its worrying to hear there is a 3rd wave in France and new lockdowns. I hope the vaccinations ramp up in the EU soon.


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## Jacob (12 Apr 2021)

powertools said:


> .......
> ,,,, all the other things that we have to accept i.......


What did you have in mind?


----------



## francovendee (13 Apr 2021)

Asking a leaver for benefits of leaving, before an after we left, will produce nothing other than more about how bad the EU is.
Leavers think by saying nothing people will tire and shut up. That aint going to happen.
Remainers will shut up if and when real benefits are seen in peoples lives. Seem like we're in for the long ride.


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## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Yes
> 
> The Single Market.
> It made is as easy to order something from Bristol as Berlin.
> ...



Eastern European countries are taking their money, building their infrastructure and keeping their gobs shut....at the moment.
Wait till they have at start making payments of any substance


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## Jacob (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Eastern European countries are taking their money, building their infrastructure and keeping their gobs shut....at the moment.
> Wait till they have at start making payments of any substance


No doubt they will be very pleased when they finally achieve the necessary level of success/wealth to able to contribute themselves, thanks to the EU. That's what it's all about.


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## Doug B (13 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> That's probably a fair summary.


So as has been said previously by others most voters won’t fully understand the full workings of EU, what they will understand is the consequences to them & their communities of the poor implementation of those policies by both Labour & the Conservatives, which whilst not the fault of the EU has a big impact on their lives, so when one of those poorly performing governments of the last 20 years give them the opportunity to vote they turn on that government & by doing so the EU.

I live in a an area that had a high Brexit vote turn out & regularly work in, I believe, the biggest area that voted for Brexit, when I talk about Brexit to my customers it’s a reoccurring theme that whilst they may not explain it very well the poor implementation of EU policies along with complete lack of understanding & support by government within those communities for the impact these policies have had is the reason the Brexit vote was so high.
I don’t blame the EU for many of these things who I do blame is successive British governments who for years haven’t been fit for the job they’ve been elected to do


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## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

francovendee said:


> Asking a leaver for benefits of leaving, before an after we left, will produce nothing other than more about how bad the EU is.



Seems to me the EU is in a bigger mess than its ever been in today.
Its like a rudderless ship to be honest.
No ones mentioning their finances or how they will plug the UK money loss.
Their lack of controlling the pandemic.


----------



## shed9 (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Seems to me the EU is in a bigger mess than its ever been in today.
> Its like a rudderless ship to be honest.
> No ones mentioning their finances or how they will plug the UK money loss.
> Their lack of controlling the pandemic.


Is this sarcasm? I have to ask as it often gets lost on the Interweb......


----------



## Daniel2 (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Seems to me the EU is in a bigger mess than its ever been in today.
> Its like a rudderless ship to be honest.
> No ones mentioning their finances or how they will plug the UK money loss.
> Their lack of controlling the pandemic.



Would you care to substantiate that, at all ?
From where I'm standing, the EU seems to be doing just fine  
Since the DUK left, the only impact, as far as I can see, is that I
have to source my purchases elsewhere.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> From where I'm standing, the EU seems to be doing just fine
> Since the DUK left, the only impact, as far as I can see, is that I
> have to source my purchases elsewhere.



Would you like to substantiate that?
It looks like it's in turmoil to me


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

shed9 said:


> Is this sarcasm? I have to ask as it often gets lost on the Interweb......



Why should it be sarcasm?


----------



## Peterm1000 (13 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Good question Phil and plenty of answers! Big issues too, not just trivia.
> So - do we have any answers to the other question about advantages of Brexit? Seems to have gone quiet on that front.
> Nul points so far, surely somebody can think of something?



Obvious innit...


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

The best thing we got from Brexit was that not enough remainers got out of their beds to vote.


The top and bottom of it all is that regardless of any grievances you hold today, Brexit could have been avoided. 
A large majority poo hood the idea Brexit would ever happen, thinking so many would vote against it and therefore didn't bother to turning up to vote on the day.
Complain all you want today. Make as many accusations or praises, but the fact remains forums don't change things.
The voting public do.


----------



## Jacob (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> ......
> A large majority poo hood the idea Brexit would ever happen, thinking so many would vote against it and therefore didn't bother to turning up to vote on the day.


Certainly it was taken for granted - by Cameron from the beginning


> Complain all you want today. Make as many accusations or praises, but the fact remains forums don't change things.
> The voting public do.


Yes but the more people talk about things in forums or anywhere, the more likely it is that the voting public will make intelligent decisions rather than being told what to think and do, by a heavily biased media.


----------



## Phill05 (13 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> but the more people talk about things in forums or anywhere, the more likely it is that the voting public will make intelligent decisions rather than being told what to think and do, by a heavily biased media.



But Jacob that is what you are doing your telling us all how to think and what to do, but in fact is most of us make intelligent decisions all and every day but your way is just making people just tired of all your dribble.


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## Jacob (13 Apr 2021)

Phill05 said:


> But Jacob that is what you are doing your telling us all how to think and what to do, but in fact is most of us make intelligent decisions all and every day but your way is just making people just tired of all your dribble.


Don't read it then. Or put me on "ignore".


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Certainly it was taken for granted - by Cameron from the beginningYes but the more people talk about things in forums or anywhere, the more likely it is that the voting public will make intelligent decisions rather than being told what to think and do, by a heavily biased media.



Cameron asked for simple changes that the EU would not discuss. They turned their back on him in parliament and isolated May the same way.........that was factual and for all to see how our leaders were treated.

And yes the media was bias.
I'm surprised the BBC didn't manage to persuade more remainders to go out and vote to be honest.


----------



## francovendee (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Seems to me the EU is in a bigger mess than its ever been in today.
> Its like a rudderless ship to be honest.
> No ones mentioning their finances or how they will plug the UK money loss.
> Their lack of controlling the pandemic.


Perhaps you can cite some evidence of this? 
The control of the pandemic is only limited by the supply of vaccine.
If you're suggesting the EU should have elbowed its way to get all the vaccine it would have left the UK short of vaccine.
Please don't tell me about different contracts, in an emergency the EU would have had justification to do so.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

Europe Heading to a new Financial Crisis.
Bloomberg yesterday


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

francovendee said:


> Perhaps you can cite some evidence of this?
> The control of the pandemic is only limited by the supply of vaccine.
> If you're suggesting the EU should have elbowed its way to get all the vaccine it would have left the UK short of vaccine.
> Please don't tell me about different contracts, in an emergency the EU would have had justification to do so.



No Its not.
Lockdown controlled the pandemic while the vaccine started taking effect and the vaccinated numbers went up.
So who would you blame for the slow response, the inability to protect its people and the utter contempt it has shown for the UK?........


----------



## sploo (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> ...the utter contempt it has shown for the UK?........


This is a very tired theme. We (the UK) blustered and bull "scheissed", threatened (including threats to break international law), claimed we could basically get all the advantages of membership without membership, sent utter simpletons (e.g. David Davis) to negotiate on our behalf; and through all that the EU negotiators managed to maintain a pretty straight face. Frankly I'd have shown utter contempt for the embarrassing excrement show the UK managed during that time.

And yet, despite all the negatives that have happened being an obvious and well warned consequence of the actions that _we_ took, it's still somehow someone else's fault.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> This is a very tired theme.



Why waste the breath then?


----------



## sploo (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Why waste the breath then?


Because the untruth perpetuates. That's good for nobody. Well, except a small minority that will profit from the manipulation.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> This is a very tired theme. We (the UK) blustered and bull "scheissed", threatened (including threats to break international law), claimed we could basically get all the advantages of membership without membership, sent utter simpletons (e.g. David Davis) to negotiate on our behalf; and through all that the EU negotiators managed to maintain a pretty straight face. Frankly I'd have shown utter contempt for the embarrassing excrement show the UK managed during that time.
> 
> And yet, despite all the negatives that have happened being an obvious and well warned consequence of the actions that _we_ took, it's still somehow someone else's fault.



Never the less the UK is forecast to show average growth of 1.9% if measured by GDP.
Plus it is projected to remain the fastest growing economy in the G7 up to 2050.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yes but the more people talk about things in forums or anywhere, the more likely it is that the voting public will make intelligent decisions rather than being told what to think and do, by a heavily biased media.



won't make much impact on here when 90% of us are geriatrics.


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## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> that was factual


No, not factual.








David Cameron's EU deal: what he wanted and what he got


The prime minister had several items on his wish list in Brussels, but how did the other heads of state react to his demands?




www.theguardian.com







Amateur said:


> isolated May the same way


How so?
Theresa May wanted to leave the CU and SM, EU offered the backstop, a reasonable compromise.



Amateur said:


> And yes the media was bias


Yes the right wing media, namely the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Daily Telegraph have been gaslighting the public about the EU for decades. And the lies are still continuing.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Because the untruth perpetuates. That's good for nobody. Well, except a small minority that will profit from the manipulation.



The speeds which things move today there is no time for truths or untruths. Everything is forgotten in the blink of an eye.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Never the less the UK is forecast to show average growth of 1.9% if measured by GDP.
> Plus it is projected to remain the fastest growing economy in the G7 up to 2050.


That's Pwc forecast....lots of ifs, buts and maybes in that.

Anyway, GDP is not a very useful metric for the general public.

What counts is wealth distribution, in work, child and pensioner poverty, retirement age, healthcare provision, access to public services etc......pretty much all those metrics are getting worse for most people here.


----------



## sploo (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> The speeds which things move today there is no time for truths or untruths. Everything is forgotten in the blink of an eye.


I can only shrug my shoulders in response to that, as it's pretty meaningless.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> They turned their back on him in parliament and isolated May the same way.........that was factual and for all to see how our leaders were treated.



Cameron and May both were rebuffed in the EU parliament. Members walked away from them, refused to shake hands with them. Millions in tv saw it.
You must have missed it Or dismissed it.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> The speeds which things move today there is no time for truths or untruths. Everything is forgotten in the blink of an eye.


That's why Brexit was enabled.

as proven by Trump: if you lie big you can win big.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Cameron and May both were rebuffed in the EU parliament. Members walked away from them, refused to shake hands with them. Millions in tv saw it.
> You must have missed it Or dismissed it.


Untrue.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> It looks like it's in turmoil to me


Not compared to the UK


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> That's Pwc forecast....lots of ifs, buts and maybes in that.
> 
> Anyway, GDP is not a very useful metric for the general public.
> 
> What counts is wealth distribution, in work, child and pensioner poverty, retirement age, healthcare provision, access to public services etc......pretty much all those metrics are getting worse for most people here.



Why make excuses while agreeing with what I posted.....


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Untrue.



I'm afraid it isn't untrue it was well circulated on the news channels.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Untrue.


Thought so. Dismissed it.
Selective memory syndrome.


----------



## Jonm (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Untrue.











'Lonely Theresa May' video at EU summit is Brexit in a nutshell


Footage of PM looking forlorn as EU leaders chat is a telling image of bloc’s unity – but in reality there are plenty of divisions




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Jonm (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> That's why Brexit was enabled.
> 
> as proven by Trump: if you lie big you can win big.


All this was inspired by the principle – which is quite true within itself – that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. ........

— Adolf Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, vol. I, ch. X[8]


----------



## planesleuth (13 Apr 2021)

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> 'Lonely Theresa May' video at EU summit is Brexit in a nutshell
> 
> 
> Footage of PM looking forlorn as EU leaders chat is a telling image of bloc’s unity – but in reality there are plenty of divisions
> ...


Thankyou.


----------



## Jester129 (13 Apr 2021)

Can any Remainer tell me years it is since EU finances were 'signed off' by the accountants?
Brexit wasn't about harmonising standards or the like, it was about POWER, and Merkel et Macron that wanted to rule the UK. That's why Brexit supporters came out and voted to leave, the carp politics and gravy trains that the '*Common Market*' became. *We wanted a Common Market, not an all-powerful EU.*


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

Watch the video. Lonely Theresa May above.
Is this the way to treat any leader of a country?
No matter what your political stance on Brexit NO one should be bullied and humiliated when they are only trying to carry out their duty on behalf of the nation.
Tell me it doesnt influence how people think about the EU and why their threats about vaccine distribution make many people today glad we exited.?


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Thought so. Dismissed it.
> Selective memory syndrome.


I did not dismiss it, I chose not to reach a false conclusion.

The media selectively choosing a clip of Theresa May looking awkward does not in any way prove she was "rebuffed" by the EU

Please provide any evidence of being "rebuffed"


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Watch the video. Lonely Theresa May above.
> Is this the way to treat any leader of a country?


its a clip of a few seconds and it proves nothing -Its entirely likely those people around her at that specific moment either didnt know her or maybe didnt speak English -either way for you to decide that is any form of proof the EU "rebuffed" her, rather shows how easily you are influenced by the media.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> NO one should be bullied and humiliated when they are only trying to carry out their duty on behalf of the nation.



Are you serious?

that clip shows no such thing -your imagination is working overtime

perhaps we should stick to facts and evidence.


----------



## Amateur (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I did not dismiss it, I chose not to reach a false conclusion.
> 
> The media selectively choosing a clip of Theresa May looking awkward does not in any way prove she was "rebuffed" by the EU
> 
> Please provide any evidence of being "rebuffed"



Tell my wife that our wedding video does not prove she was married

Ive heard it all now,
I chose not to reach a false conclusion..........to support Brexit no doubt.

I will refrain from any more conversation Robin. No offence you understand


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Jester129 said:


> Can any Remainer tell me years it is since EU finances were 'signed off' by the accountants?



oh dear, thats a really old trope.

please please please can we move on debate some actual facts and evidence.

EU accounts have always been audited. 

A clean opinion by the auditors has been reached every year since 2007
prior to that there were found to be errors -but those do not constitute fraud, it is more that money wasnt paid out according to the rules



by the way how is the current UK govt doing with its bogus PPE contracts? -I presume since brexiters are so worried about fraud they must be all over it


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Tell my wife that our wedding video does not prove she was married


false equivalence.



Amateur said:


> I will refrain from any more conversation Robin. No offence you understand


Of course not

We both know a clip of a few seconds of Theresa May looking awkward is of zero evidence.....hence why you dont want to continue the debate.


If you do find any evidence that said clip proves the EU "rebuffed" "bullied" or "humiliated" Theresa May, Id be happy to hear it.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Why make excuses while agreeing with what I posted.....


I did not agree with what you posted -I pointed out you produced a forecast from one source -we can always find an economic forecast that suits our argument.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> All this was inspired by the principle – which is quite true within itself – that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.
> 
> It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. ........
> 
> — Adolf Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, vol. I, ch. X[8]


Godwins law


----------



## Jacob (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Godwins law


Mornington Crescent!


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Mornington Crescent!


yes I know about that -it was the tile pattern on the floor.


----------



## sploo (13 Apr 2021)

The last couple of pages make me despair for humanity; the dragging up of anti-EU tropes that have been disproved so long ago, and so many times, that there must be nothing left of the body - it having been beaten so hard. Add to that bizarre conclusions from minor bits of evidence, and then finally a reference to Hitler


----------



## Doug B (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> by the way how is the current UK govt doing with its bogus PPE contracts? -I presume since brexiters are so worried about fraud they must be all over it



I think when it comes to fraud the British government is playing at it compared to the EU, just remind me how transparent they are with their expenses


----------



## alanpo68 (13 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I think when it comes to fraud the British government is playing at it compared to the EU, just remind me how transparent they are with their expenses



Amazing how Boris was so desperate to get out of the EU before they introduce the money laundering legislation regarding offshore tax havens. It must have just been a co-incidence that Vote Leave was bankrolled by the likes of Aaron Banks.


----------



## Doug B (13 Apr 2021)

alanpo68 said:


> Amazing how Boris was so desperate to get out of the EU before they introduce the money laundering legislation regarding offshore tax havens. It must have just been a co-incidence that Vote Leave was bankrolled by the likes of Aaron Banks.


I have no doubt Alan what I object to is the EU being held up as some shinning beacon when by its shear size it has to be one of the largest democratically elected corrupt institutions there is.
Its estimated each MEP gets the thick end of 1/2 a million euros a year, times that by 705 MEP’s, but of course we will never know the true figure because they passed privacy laws preventing us seeing their expenses, handy eh.


----------



## Peterm1000 (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> That's why Brexit was enabled.
> 
> as proven by Trump: if you lie big you can win big.


Err... if we are talking Trump, isn't it if you lie bigly you can win bigly?


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> The last couple of pages make me despair for humanity; the dragging up of anti-EU tropes that have been disproved so long ago, and so many times, that there must be nothing left of the body - it having been beaten so hard. Add to that bizarre conclusions from minor bits of evidence, and then finally a reference to Hitler



I actually entirely agree with Bob and others who say "its time to move forward".
But until politicians and the media start to tell the truth, I think it will be very very difficult.

We all know the Brexit debate has 2 completely entrenched sides, I'm sure this forum is a reflection of every debate going on. 


I would really like to see remainers and leavers forget these old arguments and move on to discussions about how this country moves forward. The problem though is the problems that have to be resolved are the same ones debated for the last 4 plus years.

It is a simple fact the EU is the UKs largest trade partner.
It is also a simple fact that trade with the EU is now more difficult.

So how do we resolve that?


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I think when it comes to fraud the British government is playing at it compared to the EU, just remind me how transparent they are with their expenses



Tufton street network





Brexit and Climate Science Denial: The Tufton Street Network – Byline Times


Mat Hope , of DeSmog, maps the shadowy network of lobbyists and politicians working together to push for environmental deregulation — all in the name of Brexit.




bylinetimes.com





Good law project








Procurement Case - Good Law Project







goodlawproject.org





Randox laboratories








Healthcare firm advised by Owen Paterson won £133m coronavirus testing contract unopposed


Randox Laboratories hired as part of Matt Hancock’s promise to carry out 100,000 tests a day




www.theguardian.com





Russian influence








FinCEN Files: Tory donor Lubov Chernukhin linked to $8m Putin ally funding


Leaked files show Lubov Chernukhin's husband was secretly funded by a Russian oligarch.



www.bbc.co.uk





Uber








David Cameron's chum-ocracy and its links with Uber bosses


Did David Cameron and George Osborne lean on Boris Johnson and Transport for London after the former mayor of London went after Uber in 2015?




www.dailymail.co.uk





Richard Desmond








Tory Housing Secretary admits helping billionaire ex-Tory donor save £40m in tax with unlawful housing decision | Evolve Politics


The Conservative Party Housing Secretary has admitted unlawfully signing off on a housing development proposed by a billionaire porn tycoon who previously donated to the Tories – a decision which the Tory Minister made immediately before a new tax rate was introduced, helping the wealthy mogul...




evolvepolitics.com





Tate and Lyle








Brexit backers Tate & Lyle set to gain £73m from end of EU trade tariffs


Greenpeace investigators say the firm, which also donated to the Conservatives, will be sole beneficiary of rule changes on importing raw cane sugar




www.theguardian.com






I could go on and on....

It's ironic really, Brexit is an enabler for this stuff.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> Err... if we are talking Trump, isn't it if you lie bigly you can win bigly?


"We've told some tremendous lies, this Trump administration has told bigger lies than any president in history"

"Sorry, did I say lies, I meant to say alternative facts"

"Sorry I must go, my bestie mate Vlad is on the other line"


----------



## Doug B (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Tufton street network
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really don’t need to post this for me Robin, two of my very good friends are staunch remainers & post this sort of stuff up regularly on social media but just as this is going on in our own government the same is happening in the EU, it’s why I have very little time or respect for politics of any flavour, the corruption is endemic. 
What we need is more transparency & accountability though it will never happen as there are too many noses in the trough with vested interests to let that happen.Just look at Neil & Glenys Kinnock with estimated EU earnings of £10,000,000 over a 15 year period not bad little earner eh


----------



## Jonm (13 Apr 2021)

[


Jacob said:


> Good question Phil and plenty of answers! Big issues too, not just trivia.
> So - do we have any answers to the other question about advantages of Brexit? Seems to have gone quiet on that front.
> Nul points so far, surely somebody can think of something?


Well here is an advantage of brexit








Lords express concern over police losing access to EU database | UKAuthority







www.ukauthority.com




Criminals in the UK and the EU will find it easier to pursue their illegitimate business. A win win situation for UK and EU.


----------



## Jonm (13 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I actually entirely agree with Bob and others who say "its time to move forward".
> But until politicians and the media start to tell the truth, I think it will be very very difficult.
> 
> We all know the Brexit debate has 2 completely entrenched sides, I'm sure this forum is a reflection of every debate going on.
> ...


[
We are not going to rejoin the EU any time soon, probably for at least 10 years. In that time the EU will evolve, possibly in to something we would not want to join. The EU could split up and/or the UK could fall apart. The Euro could fail, who knows.

We have the imminent threat of coronavirus and a massive national debt. Very few Brexiteers or remainers have changed their mind and the split is about 50/50. In time it will become clearer what the real effect of Brexit has been. 

As you say, It is a simple fact the EU is the UKs largest trade partner.
It is also a simple fact that trade with the EU is now more difficult. However that is now a fact of life and we cannot change it for a number of years. We just have to get on and do the best we can and pull together.

as far as I can tell most people in their daily lives are not talking about Brexit.


----------



## RobinBHM (13 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> You really don’t need to post this for me Robin, two of my very good friends are staunch remainers & post this sort of stuff up regularly on social media but just as this is going on in our own government the same is happening in the EU, it’s why I have very little time or respect for politics of any flavour, the corruption is endemic.
> What we need is more transparency & accountability though it will never happen as there are too many noses in the trough with vested interests to let that happen.Just look at Neil & Glenys Kinnock with estimated EU earnings of £10,000,000 over a 15 year period not bad little earner eh



Your argument for Brexit....is because it gets the UK away from corruption.

But the very purpose of Brexit is to enable corruption, cronyism, deregulation etc etc.

I'm not sure appreciate the irony.

By the way Nigel Farage has a nice EU pension.


----------



## doctor Bob (13 Apr 2021)

The most amazing thing this thread shows me, to date, is the amount of hours and research people are prepared to put in to try to win an internet arguement.
Lot and lots of links and articles posted, enormous amounts of google foo. Of course specifically selected articles from left or right wing papers, to suit their purpose.
Just think if Jacob had expended just 0.5% of that google foo, on checking that the ridiculous form he was sent was incorrect (which surely as a remotely intelligent man he must have suspected) then he would have resolved the situation almost instantaniously compared with the current 2 weeks of debate (plus 4 previous years).
At present the binaryness is at stalemate for interested parties. However as I have said before 95% of the public don't care, don'tcare who's in power, etc ........... it's just not important to most people.
I like popping in, but it sucks you in and wastes so much time. 
Dad is very poorly and going into 24hr care, makes you realise wasting time is not good, good luck guys, remember that this debate is unwinable, don't waste too much time, make sure you get priorities right.


----------



## Jonm (13 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> The most amazing thing this thread shows me, to date, is the amount of hours and research people are prepared to put in to try to win an internet arguement.
> Lot and lots of links and articles posted, enormous amounts of google foo. Of course specifically selected articles from left or right wing papers, to suit their purpose.
> Just think if Jacob had expended just 0.5% of that google foo, on checking that the ridiculous form he was sent was incorrect (which surely as a remotely intelligent man he must have suspected) then he would have resolved the situation almost instantaniously compared with the current 2 weeks of debate (plus 4 previous years).
> At present the binaryness is at stalemate for interested parties. However as I have said before 95% of the public don't care, don'tcare who's in power, etc ........... it's just not important to most people.
> ...


You are quite correct. this post is like a drug, it is addictive. I drop in, see something I disagree with and comment, then someone responds and I am sucked in.


----------



## julianf (14 Apr 2021)

Some of us are feeling the negative effects of brexit constantly.

We dont need an internet thread to "remind" us - we are actually living the poor consequences.

Until those poor consequences have either been around for so long they just become background, or are resolved, its unlikely we will look upon the whole situation as anything more than it is.


----------



## doctor Bob (14 Apr 2021)

julianf said:


> Some of us are feeling the negative effects of brexit constantly.
> 
> We dont need an internet thread to "remind" us - we are actually living the poor consequences.
> 
> Until those poor consequences have either been around for so long they just become background, or are resolved, its unlikely we will look upon the whole situation as anything more than it is.



Do you think spending time on a woodwork forum is benefitting you then, or helping to resolve the matter.
I would have thought spending the time on a more government focused forum / website would feel more pro active, I don't think Boris is on here.
My point was at the OP, who couldn't fill in the correct 2minute form but will quite happily spend probably a total of days on an internet thread.


----------



## Doug B (14 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Your argument for Brexit....is because it gets the UK away from corruption.
> 
> But the very purpose of Brexit is to enable corruption, cronyism, deregulation etc etc.
> 
> ...


Mine is in no way an argument for that Robin Ive merely pointed out that the EU isn’t the shinning embodiment that some make it out to be, I’m more than willing to say our government is corrupt as is the EU but remainers seem unwilling to admit this.

Take Farage as an example, I have total distain for the bloke if anything he proves what a gravy train the EU has become, as you quite rightly say he will receive a pension on top of having been paid exorbitant amounts of money for doing nothing, I can’t remember the exact details but apparently in one year he only turned up a couple of times but still received full pay & expenses, how can that be right? But that’s the system the EU has, no accountability.


----------



## pidgeonpost (14 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> The last couple of pages make me despair for humanity; the dragging up of anti-EU tropes that have been disproved so long ago, and so many times, that there must be nothing left of the body - it having been beaten so hard. Add to that bizarre conclusions from minor bits of evidence, and then finally a reference to Hitler
> The last couple of pages make me despair for humanity; the dragging up of anti-EU tropes that have been disproved so long ago, and so many times, that there must be nothing left of the body - it having been beaten so hard. Add to that bizarre conclusions from minor bits of evidence, and then finally a reference to Hitler


This thread goes some way to explaining why some forums ban the discussion of politics, religion, and other topics which lie outside of the main purposes of the forum. Here's an example.
It's clear that neither side of the Brexit debate on here will be shifted from the views they already hold, and if people want to discuss, debate, or fulminate on these matters, then more appropriate forums exist for them to do so.
I know, I've said this before, and been told that the forum would be a duller place without freedom of expression, but seriously, Admins, what's the point of permitting the perpetuation of such an endless and unresolvable argument?


----------



## Blackswanwood (14 Apr 2021)

Is this thread making anyone feel better? 

From my reading of it neither "side" has changed their opinion as a result of anything said here and the same "facts" are just being repeated multiple times. Someone said in an earlier post that the facts need to be acknowledged before we can move on ... unfortunately that's just not going to happen. Imho moving on is the only thing we can do unless we want to spend the rest of our lives either admiring the problem (if you feel we should have stayed in) and/or letting the new opportunities slip away (if you are glad we left).

I voted remain and think logically leaving was a daft thing to do - the vote was based on sentiment just as much as facts though. It may be imperfect but it's no different to any other vote in the last umpteen years. 

However the sun keeps coming up every morning and I live in a country that despite it's shortcomings has lots going for it. Keeping on raking over the same facts and decrying the views of others must be cathartic for some which perhaps demonstrates how we are all different.


----------



## Doug B (14 Apr 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Is this thread making anyone feel better?



I’ve previously ignored threads like this I generally only come here for the woodwork & have done for many years but yes I have rather enjoyed this thread it’s interesting to see other people’s views, I don’t recall any name calling or nastiness so I really don’t see the problem. As I‘ve said I regularly used to skip threads like these I don’t see why those who don’t like them can’t do the same.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> Ive merely pointed out that the EU isn’t the shinning embodiment that some make it out to be, I’m more than willing to say our government is corrupt as is the EU but remainers seem unwilling to admit this


Are remainers "unwilling to admit this"?
I have never heard any remainers suggest the EU is a "shining embodiment"
I think you know you are setting up a strawman argument there.


There is a very important point I am trying to make, which goes to the heart of a constant misleading narrative central to most brexiter arguments.

Brexiters repeatedly say stuff like: 
"The EU is corrupt"
"The EU is protectionist"
"The EU is a gravy train"

But it's meaningless without comparison.

Sure there is corruption in the EU, sure there is protectionism.
But it means nothing, absolutely nothing as an isolated statement.


We need to sidestep emotive slogans and look at whatever facts and evidence are available
How corrupt is the EU, how does it compare to UK, USA or any other 1st world economy?


What is wrong, is brexiters using "EU is corrupt" as a justification for Brexit, when the UK government has shown itself to be very corrupt itself.
I am sorry but unless you can prove the UK govt is less corrupt than the EU, that's not justification for Brexit.

Even worse is that the real purpose of Brexit was to enable corruption.....Brexit was always about the vested self interest of rich capitalists. The "getting back control" was nothing to do with the people taking back control.....it was about the leaders in charge taking back control....for personal gain.


Unless we can start to remove these emotive arguments and look at them in context, we can't move forward.



If you believe leaving the EU means less corruption and more accountability....Great, let's see the evidence.
I welcome less corruption, because that means better wealth distribution.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Doug B said:


> I’ve previously ignored threads like this I generally only come here for the woodwork & have done for many years but yes I have rather enjoyed this thread it’s interesting to see other people’s views, I don’t recall any name calling or nastiness so I really don’t see the problem. As I‘ve said I regularly used to skip threads like these I don’t see why those who don’t like them can’t do the same.



I have actually found the threads on here far more useful than reading newspapers etc.

The reason is that, following this thread means seeing arguments expressed from both sides. It's far too easy when reading newspapers etc to only read what supports our confirmation bias.

The other thing is that there are some extremely intelligent people on here, from all walks of life and all with different life experiences.

I know the posts we've been having together are from somewhat different sides of the fence, but ultimately I dont think our views are miles apart.


----------



## Lons (14 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Do you think spending time on a woodwork forum is benefitting you then, or helping to resolve the matter.
> I would have thought spending the time on a more government focused forum / website would feel more pro active, I don't think Boris is on here.
> My point was at the OP, who couldn't fill in the correct 2minute form but will quite happily spend probably a total of days on an internet thread.


Spot on Bob with this and your previous post.  We all know of course that the form filling was a thinly veiled excuse to start another Brexit / political thread ahead of the forthcoming local elections, it must have been very lonely in exile without a soapbox to stand on, It's just same ol same ol and flogging a dead horse. 
We left the EU in accordance with the vote result carried out in the same way as all voting in this country including the obligatory lies, deceit, and everything else. I voted remain, at least I voted unlike thousands of others who couldn't be arissed so it's done and no amount of arguing on a piddling little forum will make a single jot of difference.


----------



## Jonm (14 Apr 2021)

pidgeonpost said:


> This thread goes some way to explaining why some forums ban the discussion of politics, religion, and other topics which lie outside of the main purposes of the forum. Here's an example.
> It's clear that neither side of the Brexit debate on here will be shifted from the views they already hold, and if people want to discuss, debate, or fulminate on these matters, then more appropriate forums exist for them to do so.
> I know, I've said this before, and been told that the forum would be a duller place without freedom of expression, but seriously, Admins, what's the point of permitting the perpetuation of such an endless and unresolvable argument?


Well it is in the off topic section and it is interesting to see the deep held views among practical people with an interest in woodwork. It is an “endless and unresolvable argument”. It would help to ease tensions if both sides looked objectively at their position and carefully analysed what they say before saying it. Try asking, am I just repeating a slogan I have heard or am I factually correct.

The reality is that we have been very badly governed. The 1975 referendum established that we were happy with the common market as it then was. To change to what it is now we needed to sign the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. That was the time for referendums, the treaties needed our signature to be ratified. A lot of EU nations had referendums then. A refusal to sign at that stage would have given us huge power to amend it, possibly a two speed Europe, or we could have left then on terms very favourable to us. We did not have referendums at that stage and years later decided to have a referendum and leave, and the EU have put us through the wringer and we have an internal border within the UK. Total government incompetence and a divided nation.


----------



## doctor Bob (14 Apr 2021)

I wonder if Jacob is going to give it another crack, may get over a dozen this time around. 
I shall follow the result to see if the new candidate does better or worse than Jacob, technically he has to do worse as by Jacobs words, Labour were coming into full glory back in the day under jezza.
Jacob smashed it, I reckon the new candidate will get a few less than Jacob, maybe 6 or 7 ....... mum, dad, brother, aunt, great nan once removed .......................


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> Total government incompetence and a divided nation.


the divided nation thing was deliberate strategy -Brexit was won joining the different brexit factions by uniting them against a common enemy.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> looked objectively at their position and carefully analysed what they say before saying it. Try asking, am I just repeating a slogan I have heard or am I factually correct.



Excellent point. - I will give this more consideration.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Here is an idea for this thread going forward:

Instead of repeating the things we disagree about, how about finding things that we agree on.

reaching consensus is about building on common ground.


----------



## Jonm (14 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> Spot on Bob with this and your previous post.  We all know of course that the form filling was a thinly veiled excuse to start another Brexit / political thread ahead of the forthcoming local elections, it must have been very lonely in exile without a soapbox to stand on, It's just same ol same ol and flogging a dead horse.
> We left the EU in accordance with the vote result carried out in the same way as all voting in this country including the obligatory lies, deceit, and everything else. I voted remain, at least I voted unlike thousands of others who couldn't be arissed so it's done and no amount of arguing on a piddling little forum will make a single jot of difference.


I voted remain and think we have made a big mistake. However there are aspects of the EU I did not like. The Euro, how can you have monetary union without political union, rich areas have to send money to poor areas, not make the poor areas take out loans which they cannot repay. I was uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration. The general direction of travel of ever closer union (probably necessary for euro countries) was a concern. Complete government incompetence for many years as I have posted above.


----------



## sploo (14 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> I was uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration.


But you see; this is exactly the sort of powerful, emotive, statement without evidence that's been highlighted as an issue in the most recent posts.

Do you mean uncontrolled immigration from non-EU countries into EU countries? Do you mean uncontrolled immigration from poorer EU countries into richer EU countries? This question must also be considered in context with the presence of the EU rules that state that citizens migrating from one EU nation to another must be self supporting (i.e. have a job).

Taken without any of the above context it's just another battle cry of "them" coming to steal our jobs and our culture - and it works, because it resonates with people's fears; regardless of whether or not it's true.


----------



## Peterm1000 (14 Apr 2021)

Arguably, you don't have to look back very far to see that we all descended from immigrants and should maybe be a little more tolerant. The concept of a country having a border is only a few hundred years old. The language we speak didn't originate in the UK and most of our ancestors arrived in the UK less than 100 generations ago.


----------



## Amateur (14 Apr 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Is this thread making anyone feel better?



I feel a lot better.
I know I'm not as nutty as some on here.
I know when to withdraw from the discussion.
I'm amazed how some people have got their responses off pat before you even post anything.
I'm feeling so much better I married the wife every time I drop in here, bucks me up no end.........
As I sit on my yacht smoking a Monecristo number 2, sipping Spring Bank 10 year old.........no need to drink the Arran 18 today, ..........without a care in the world


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## sploo (14 Apr 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> Arguably, you don't have to look back very far to see that we all descended from immigrants and should maybe be a little more tolerant. The concept of a country having a border is only a few hundred years old. The language we speak didn't originate in the UK and most of our ancestors arrived in the UK less than 100 generations ago.


Unfortunately as soon as a human is in one spot for more than 10 minutes they'll start complaining about immigrants when someone new turns up 

It reminds me of an amusing exchange I saw on Twitter a few years ago; a guy was claiming he'd traced his ancestry "all the way back" to prove he was pure blood English, with no foreigners anywhere in his history. Someone pointed out the following:

Take the average age of each generation at reproduction to be 30 (likely much younger going back in time, but let's stick with 30)
"All the way back"; let's go to 1066; as we can probably agree things get a bit muddy past then. Call that ~900 years ago
900 years, with a reproduction age of 30 is 30 generations (900/30)
If you want to check the history of your immediate previous generation, that's 2 people (mum and dad)
Two generations is 6 people (mum and dad [2], plus their parents [2+2])
Three generations takes you to 14 people (mum and dad [2], their parents [2+2], their parents parents [2+2+2+2])
By 30 generations, you'll have needed to check the background of 2,147,483,646 people
If you could fully confirm the "Englishness" of each of those people in just 1 second, it would take 68 years to complete
Mr "all the way back" didn't respond


----------



## Jacob (14 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Unfortunately as soon as a human is in one spot for more than 10 minutes they'll start complaining about immigrants when someone new turns up
> 
> It reminds me of an amusing exchange I saw on Twitter a few years ago; a guy was claiming he'd traced his ancestry "all the way back" to prove he was pure blood English, with no foreigners anywhere in his history. Someone pointed out the following:
> 
> ...


Ah but - they left out incest! There was a lot of that about in the old days, could produce a very different number. World pop AD1000 300million apparently - much easier to check!


----------



## sploo (14 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Ah but - they left out incest! There was a lot of that about in the old days, could produce a very different number. 300million apparently - much easier to check!


It did occur to me, but I suspect the original poster didn't want to start that argument. Plus, Mr "all the way back"'s gran probably juggled an African American GI's privates during WWII, and didn't tell anyone


----------



## Jonm (14 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> But you see; this is exactly the sort of powerful, emotive, statement without evidence that's been highlighted as an issue in the most recent posts.
> 
> Do you mean uncontrolled immigration from non-EU countries into EU countries? Do you mean uncontrolled immigration from poorer EU countries into richer EU countries? This question must also be considered in context with the presence of the EU rules that state that citizens migrating from one EU nation to another must be self supporting (i.e. have a job).
> 
> Taken without any of the above context it's just another battle cry of "them" coming to steal our jobs and our culture - and it works, because it resonates with people's fears; regardless of whether or not it's true.


I said “uncontrolled immigration” clearly that refers to immigration that we cannot control which means immigration from other EU countries when we were a member.

You have not mentioned us not imposing the seven year ban on immigrants from the A8 countries which virtually every other country in the EU did. We also did not enforce the requirements to have a job in the same way that Germany does with its registration requirements. Both factors stoking the “we are being swamped” rhetoric and an example of bad Government.

As someone who wishes we were still in the EU I was stating some of the things which, in my opinion were downsides to membership. I said I was “uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration” and like a viper you strike. Ease up, read the comments in their entirety, try to see the other point of view. Don’t assume that the other person is an uninformed i-diot who needs to be questioned and educated.


----------



## Jacob (14 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> I said “uncontrolled immigration” clearly that refers to immigration that we cannot control which means immigration from other EU countries when we were a member.
> 
> You have not mentioned us not imposing the seven year ban on immigrants from the A8 countries which virtually every other country in the EU did. We also did not enforce the requirements to have a job in the same way that Germany does with its registration requirements. Both factors stoking the “we are being swamped” rhetoric and an example of bad Government.
> 
> As someone who wishes we were still in the EU I was stating some of the things which, in my opinion were downsides to membership. I said I was “uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration” and like a viper you strike. Ease up, read the comments in their entirety, try to see the other point of view. Don’t assume that the other person is an uninformed i-diot who needs to be questioned and educated.


It's very confusing, according to this: "What people – even, seemingly, the government – did not realise is that, since 2006, the Free Movement Directive (to give it its formal title, EU Directive 2004/38/EC) has given us exactly the control over immigration that voters demanded"








We can control EU migration – we just haven’t done it - UK in a changing Europe


When the government’s post-Brexit immigration legislation, after much delay, was finally brought before the Commons last month, it still did not have...




ukandeu.ac.uk


----------



## Jonm (14 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Unfortunately as soon as a human is in one spot for more than 10 minutes they'll start complaining about immigrants when someone new turns up
> 
> It reminds me of an amusing exchange I saw on Twitter a few years ago; a guy was claiming he'd traced his ancestry "all the way back" to prove he was pure blood English, with no foreigners anywhere in his history. Someone pointed out the following:
> 
> ...


Off topic of an off topic of an off topic.

Back in the early 60’s I went to live in Australia with my parents. My father went ahead by plane, myself and mother followed by boat. We were heading for Sydney but the ship was on a global tour so went via Hong Kong and the Philippines and stopped at Brisbane on the way. On going ashore the first Australians we met realised Immediately that we were English and said “so you are here to take our jobs”. My mother’s reply was “No, my husband is in the Royal Navy, he is here to defend you”. They had no reply. We were there for over 2 years and the general atmosphere was one of unfriendliness to the English, and I had to go to school with them.


----------



## Jonm (14 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's very confusing, according to this: "What people – even, seemingly, the government – did not realise is that, since 2006, the Free Movement Directive (to give it its formal title, EU Directive 2004/38/EC) has given us exactly the control over immigration that voters demanded"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes exactly, Referendums for Maastricht and Lisbon. Impose the seven year restriction for A8 countries, apply the rules for immigrants from EU, explain to the public why we voted for EU legislation rather than say “ we have to do it because it Is an EU requirement.“

Our governments do none of the above then give us a referendum and now we are where we are.


----------



## doctor Bob (14 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> ................................. how about finding things that we agree on.
> 
> reaching consensus is about building on common ground.



I like Boris, diane not so much...........


----------



## thomashenry (14 Apr 2021)

Handyoneill said:


> *Why on earth did you think that ?*



Because the headlines proclaimed the deal as securing tariff free trade. That's "why on earth". My post was a rhetorical one, intended to illustrate the difference between reality and what was promised or implied.

I didn't sign up to Brexit anymore than you did. I'm about as anti-Brexit as it gets, always have been, and will remain so until either we rejoin, or I die.


----------



## pgrbff (14 Apr 2021)

Since the Brexit transition period ended on 31 December 2020, trade between Britain and the EU has plummeted, with exports from the UK down 41 per cent and imports down 29 per cent in January according to the Office for National Statistics.


----------



## thomashenry (14 Apr 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> 1/ the EU didn't exist until 1993.
> *2/ it didn't keep the peace, Nato and Uncle Sam did. That's probably why it's not mentioned.*



That's your interpretation. I don't agree.


----------



## Limey Lurker (14 Apr 2021)

It must be becoming obvious to everyone that the the people who want to run this country are the very people who should NEVER be allowed to!


----------



## sploo (14 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> I said “uncontrolled immigration” clearly that refers to immigration that we cannot control which means immigration from other EU countries when we were a member.
> 
> You have not mentioned us not imposing the seven year ban on immigrants from the A8 countries which virtually every other country in the EU did. We also did not enforce the requirements to have a job in the same way that Germany does with its registration requirements. Both factors stoking the “we are being swamped” rhetoric and an example of bad Government.
> 
> As someone who wishes we were still in the EU I was stating some of the things which, in my opinion were downsides to membership. I said I was “uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration” and like a viper you strike. Ease up, read the comments in their entirety, try to see the other point of view. Don’t assume that the other person is an uninformed i-diot who needs to be questioned and educated.


But that's exactly my point - there was not ever "uncontrolled immigration". There were always rules on what an EU citizen was allowed to do in terms of migrating to live in another EU member state. If our own governments chose to ignore some of those rules, that's not the fault of the EU as a group or a process; it's entirely on us.


----------



## Jonm (14 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> But that's exactly my point - there was not ever "uncontrolled immigration". There were always rules on what an EU citizen was allowed to do in terms of migrating to live in another EU member state. If our own governments chose to ignore some of those rules, that's not the fault of the EU as a group or a process; it's entirely on us.


We almost agree on this. The vast majority of eu immigrants are hard working, pleasant and a great benefit to uk. I have yet to meet one that did not fall in to this category. The numbers however were uncontrolled, and certainly from the A8 countries were far greater than we were told to expect and no plans were in place for public services and housing to deal with the numbers. At the time of the referendum I was uneasy about the numbers coming in. Combined with the streams of people being ushered through hungary and on to the welcoming arms of Germany it was manna from heaven for the Brexiteers.


----------



## Jacob (14 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> ..... At the time of the referendum I was uneasy about the numbers coming in......


Was this down to any personal experience or just media reports?
Speaking for myself I've never had the slightest problem with any immigrant I've encountered, directly or indirectly. In fact quite the opposite they all seemed to be doing useful and essential jobs.
I've always believed the whole "problem" was a fiction.


----------



## Misterdog (14 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> as proven by Trump: if you lie big you can win big.



Or if you keep quiet as the EU did when they built a 'wall' (financial) in Turkey and Libya to keep out the migrants. Then everyone will be busy focussing their venom on Trump for shouting about his wall.


----------



## Peterm1000 (14 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Was this down to any personal experience or just media reports?
> Speaking for myself I've never had the slightest problem with any immigrant I've encountered, directly or indirectly. In fact quite the opposite they all seemed to be doing useful and essential jobs.
> I've always believed the whole "problem" was a fiction.



I believe all the BBC newsreaders are wearing black ties to celebrate the wonderful job one particular immigrant did for this country. Unsurprisingly with a name like Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Boris Johnson is also descended from immigrants. He was also an immigrant himself for some time as I believe he was born in the US and lived there. Winston Churchill's grandfather was American. Margaret Thatcher had an Irish grandmother and so on, and so on and so on....

It's hard to think that the complaints about immigration aren't really about wanting to keep Britain's cultural integrity.


----------



## Misterdog (14 Apr 2021)

pgrbff said:


> Since the Brexit transition period ended on 31 December 2020, trade between Britain and the EU has plummeted, with exports from the UK down 41 per cent and imports down 29 per cent in January according to the Office for National Statistics.



Though you might wish to look at the figures for February.

UK trade - Office for National Statistics

Unless you are a remainer, in which case it is probably better to go back to telling us that there will be no food and no vaccine medicine if we leave.


----------



## MarkDennehy (14 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Unfortunately as soon as a human is in one spot for more than 10 minutes they'll start complaining about immigrants when someone new turns up



_*remembers Irish food in the 1970s and 1980s*

*looks at Irish food today*_​

Can I get some more uncontrolled immigration from all over the world please? It's very tasty.


----------



## Amateur (14 Apr 2021)

As James Dyson pointed out this morning,
"We can employ people from all over the world
previously we were only allowed to employ people from Europe and we couldn't get the engineers we needed.
we now have 60 different nationalities now on our Wiltshire site.

he also said
" Freedom from the EU allowed Oxford scientists to develop a world beating covid 19 vaccine"
Had we been part of the EU we would not have had freedom of mind under their control.


----------



## Jacob (14 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> As James Dyson pointed out this morning,
> "We can employ people from all over the world
> previously we were only allowed to employ people from Europe and we couldn't get the engineers we needed.
> we now have 60 different nationalities now on our Wiltshire site.
> ...


You might have missed that he's moved his business to Singapore. Pays less tax, lower wages.
Nonsense about employing only allowed for people from Europe previously - in fact downright dishonest.
Asta Zenica are multinational and work with Oxford was going on well before Covid, or brexit for that matter. Not a sudden post brexit opportunity.


----------



## Amateur (14 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> You might have missed that he's moved his business to Singapore. Pays less tax, lower wages.
> Nonsense about employing only allowed for people from Europe previously - in fact downright dishonest.
> Asta Zenica are multinational and work with Oxford was going on well before Covid, or brexit for that matter. Not a sudden post brexit opportunity.



But you dont need much upstairs to realise restraints on employment by EU member states ( wink wink) reduces the technology and development pool by the dire way the EU is run, trying to stop one country having a competitive edge over another.

What doesnt make any sense is the inability of the EU to be able/want to change or at least start addressing its rules and changing the original draconian mantra any successful company country does on a scheduled time scale .


----------



## francovendee (14 Apr 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Though you might wish to look at the figures for February.
> 
> UK trade - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Unless you are a remainer, in which case it is probably better to go back to telling us that there will be no food and no vaccine medicine if we leave.


Sorry but is this supposed to be encouraging news?
Perhaps you should study the bottom line.


----------



## Amateur (14 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> You might have missed that he's moved his business to Singapore. Pays less tax, lower wages



Please don't insult everyone's intelligence here.
Thousands of other businesses have done the same.....
I bet that's why there's so much poverty, unemployment, social deprecation in the UK you tell us about..right?


----------



## Amateur (14 Apr 2021)

francovendee said:


> Sorry but is this supposed to be encouraging news?
> Perhaps you should study the bottom line.



Yes.
Miss post......
I got distracted


----------



## Amateur (14 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Nonsense about employing only allowed for people from Europe previously - in fact downright dishonest.



The cap of 20,700 workers per year put on by the EU was lifted after Brexit enabling more skilled workers to enter the Uk.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> s James Dyson pointed out this morning,
> "We can employ people from all over the world
> previously we were only allowed to employ people from Europe and we couldn't get the engineers we needed.
> we now have 60 different nationalities now on our Wiltshire site.


would you be able to point to the EU rule which prevented Dyson from employing people form outside of Europe....


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> " Freedom from the EU allowed Oxford scientists to develop a world beating covid 19 vaccine"
> Had we been part of the EU we would not have had freedom of mind under their control.


Would you be kindly point out which EU prevented that...


----------



## Misterdog (14 Apr 2021)

francovendee said:


> Sorry but is this supposed to be encouraging news?
> Perhaps you should study the bottom line.



Or maybe wait. Rather than clutching at straw men s.
Remember when the day after the referendum the pound was devalued ?

The IMF had been saying for months before that sterling was overvalued by up to 15%.

Every remainer was cock a hoop at the 'vindication' of their belief.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> The cap of 20,700 workers per year put on by the EU was lifted after Brexit enabling more skilled workers to enter the Uk.


I think you may be confused by a rule set up by the UK government:

"The total number of CoS that can be used by employers each year is capped at 20,700. This cap on non-EU skilled migration was initially the centrepiece of the suite of policies introduced under the coalition government in 2011 to cut net migration to the “tens of thousands”."









Skilled Non-EU Migration: Is the Cap In Hand? - Migration Observatory


Illustrates the effects of a £60,000 threshold on eligibility for work visas in different high-skilled occupations




migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk






I am not aware of any EU rules which set RoW immigration limits


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Though you might wish to look at the figures for February.



yes it shows an increase -but starting from the very low Jan figures


----------



## Misterdog (14 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> yes it shows an increase -but starting from the very low Jan figures



Exports of goods to the EU, excluding non-monetary gold and other precious metals, partially rebounded in February 2021, increasing by £3.7 billion (46.6%)


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Or if you keep quiet as the EU did when they built a 'wall' (financial) in Turkey and Libya to keep out the migrants. Then everyone will be busy focussing their venom on Trump for shouting about his wall.


I am not sure where the EU "kept quiet" about any wall?
I dont believe I mentioned anything about a wall in reference to Trump.

I do recall Trump said: "I am going to build a wall and Mexico will pay for it"

Trump "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. ... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people,"


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Exports of goods to the EU, excluding non-monetary gold and other precious metals, partially rebounded in February 2021, increasing by £3.7 billion (46.6%)



yes but when taken in context it is an increase from a very low position

"Food export struggles seem more systemic for small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) after the Brexit transition period’s end, sounding a note of caution despite February export statistics painting a rosier picture than January data."








February food export stats: note of caution sounded


Food export struggles seem more systemic for small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) after the Brexit transition period’s end, sounding a note of caution despite February export statistics painting a rosier picture than January data.




www.foodmanufacture.co.uk


----------



## MarkDennehy (14 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> As James Dyson pointed out this morning,
> "We can employ people from all over the world
> previously we were only allowed to employ people from Europe and we couldn't get the engineers we needed.
> we now have 60 different nationalities now on our Wiltshire site.
> ...


He must have his facts confused. I work for a US multinational in Dublin and we have - at last count pre-pandemic - 63 nationalities working in the office with us, and not in a token way either, my team was less than half Irish, everyone else was Italian and French and Greek. Looking round the office, you had people from all over - Chinese, Indian, Kenyan, American, English, Polish, Russian, and on and on.
That's in a company operating in the EU. We didn't have any trouble getting the engineers we needed.
Actually, in the IT industry as a whole, the phrase_ "we can't get the engineers we need" _is now universally translated by engineers as _"we don't pay enough"_.

Also, it's hard to not crack up over the AZ comment, because AstraZeneca is a British-Swedish company, whose CEO is French and they worked with Italian pharmaceutical factories to do all the initial manufacturing for developement. Meanwhile the foundational theory behind mRNA vaccines as a whole was developed in the US by a Hungarian immigrant, Moderna was founded by a Canadian who arrived in Canada as a child as a refugee from Beirut and their CEO is a French immigrant, and the Pfizer vaccine, while financed in the US, was developed by Turkish immigrants to Germany (in Berlin) and manufactured in Belgium. 

The covid-19 vaccines are a poster child for the benefits of giving immigrants an even chance with everyone else. And AZ is a poster child for cooperation within the EU.


----------



## Jacob (14 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> ........
> 
> The covid-19 vaccines are a poster child for the benefits of giving immigrants an even chance with everyone else. And AZ is a poster child for cooperation within the EU.


Pre brexit argument No1 top of the charts was "these forriners coming here and taking our jobs"
Post brexit argument according to Dyson (in Singapore): "now we can employ these forriners which we could not do before".
Which is it? I'm a bit confused!


----------



## doctor Bob (14 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'm a bit confused!



Age mate, wouldn't worry until you start shiitting your kaks.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

MarkDennehy said:


> Also, it's hard to not crack up over the AZ comment, because AstraZeneca is a British-Swedish company, whose CEO is French and they worked with Italian pharmaceutical factories to do all the initial manufacturing for developement. Meanwhile the foundational theory behind mRNA vaccines as a whole was developed in the US by a Hungarian immigrant, Moderna was founded by a Canadian who arrived in Canada as a child as a refugee from Beirut and their CEO is a French immigrant, and the Pfizer vaccine, while financed in the US, was developed by Turkish immigrants to Germany (in Berlin) and manufactured in Belgium



Yeah but apart from that, what have immigrants ever done for us?


----------



## doctor Bob (14 Apr 2021)

How's that building concensous going Robin?
If you can't let "all brexiteers are racists and don't want Johnny forrriner here" go, then your previous, quite sensible post was just nothing but a showboating exercise!!


----------



## Jonm (14 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Was this down to any personal experience or just media reports?
> Speaking for myself I've never had the slightest problem with any immigrant I've encountered, directly or indirectly. In fact quite the opposite they all seemed to be doing useful and essential jobs.
> I've always believed the whole "problem" was a fiction.


As I said in the post, “The vast majority of eu immigrants are hard working, pleasant and a great benefit to uk. I have yet to meet one that did not fall in to this category.”
From the early sixties to mid nineties immigration and emigration was more or less in balance and running at 200k to 300k. Since then immigration has increased and is running at about 600k with emigration at about 350k. I appreciate that immigration from outside the eu has always been greater than from inside. A doubling of the numbers of people coming in to the country is a significant change and not something that has been sensibly debated as to the implications.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> How's that building concensous going Robin?
> If you can't let "all brexiteers are racists and don't want Johnny forrriner here" go, then your previous, quite sensible post was just nothing but a showboating exercise!!


Actually there was no hidden agenda in my post, I just thought the Monty python reference amusing. 

I didn't see any connection to racism in Marks post, it's just a counter argument to Dyson.


----------



## RobinBHM (14 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> A doubling of the numbers of people coming in to the country is a significant change and not something that has been sensibly debated as to the implications



Immigration has been something successive governments have encouraged as it fuels our neo liberal economy yet simultaneously put out the message that they are "tough on immigration". Both Labour and Conservative have done this.

theres no doubt the immigration blame game was a narrative of the vote Leave campaign and a section of the media, it played on people's fears.....often wrongly interpreted as racism.


----------



## Jonm (14 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> As James Dyson pointed out this morning,
> "We can employ people from all over the world
> previously we were only allowed to employ people from Europe and we couldn't get the engineers we needed.
> we now have 60 different nationalities now on our Wiltshire site.
> ...


I have watched the video rather than read reports of what Dyson said. Dyson talked about Brexit giving us an independance of spirit and gave the example of the AZ vaccine. He talked about us not being able to be part of the european development of a vaccine. But the only vaccine developed in Europe I know of is Phizer and that is German. He referred to AZ as a British company when I thought AZ was a Swedish British company. The AZ vaccine was developed when we were in the transition period, following all the EE rules, but the interviewer did not ask that question. How on Earth leaving the EU helped with developing the AZ vaccine I do not know.


----------



## Jonm (15 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> The cap of 20,700 workers per year put on by the EU was lifted after Brexit enabling more skilled workers to enter the Uk.


I think you need to provide a proper justification of this statement. My understanding is that the EU had no juristiction over immigrants from outside the EU coming in to a member state.

When we were in the EU we regularly had over 300 000 non eu immigrants per annum. I have no idea where your “cap of 20,700 workers per year put on by the EU“ comes from.


----------



## Jacob (15 Apr 2021)

Jonm said:


> .....A doubling of the numbers of people coming in to the country is a significant change and not something that has been sensibly debated as to the implications.


People have been struggling to make a sensible debate about immigration but it has been overwhelmed by anti-immigration lobby hysteria, making claim after claim, strongly tinged with racism, which was the driving force behind brexit.


----------



## RobinBHM (15 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> , strongly tinged with racism, which was the driving force behind brexit



I don't think this needs clariifying.

Vote Leave, the pro Brexit govt, sections of the media.....they all played their part in the immigration blame game.

Parts of the country have suffered decades of decline....as a direct result of domestic politics. Immigrants, the EU, freedom of movement have been scapegoated.

It is a cynical use of fear to deflect from the real issues.

It is wrong to say Brexit was fuelled by racism or that brexiteer are racist but it is right to say politicians and media manipulated the public and we should be blaming them, not the voters

Here we are, billionaire media tycoons spreading hatred:


----------



## Jacob (15 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> I don't think this needs clariifying.
> 
> Vote Leave, the pro Brexit govt, sections of the media.....they all played their part in the immigration blame game.
> 
> ...


Not to forget Farage's "Breaking Point" poster - a picture of a huge queue of foreign looking people who it transpired had nothing to do with Britain - they were in another part of the world altogether. For all we know these people could have been queuing for a car boot sale, or anything!


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## John Brown (15 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Age mate, wouldn't worry until you start shiitting your kaks.


Someone's been honing their debating skills!


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## RobinBHM (15 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Not to forget Farage's "Breaking Point" poster - a picture of a huge queue of foreign looking people who it transpired had nothing to do with Britain - they were in another part of the world altogether. For all we know these people could have been queuing for a car boot sale, or anything!


Yes indeed....that poster was deliberately inciting fear.

Same as Farage being on the Kent coast.

Same as Trump talking about building a wall to keep out foreigners.

As I said, it's all about political leaders not about the voters.

If remainers call leavers racists all they are doing is increasing division....exactly the strategy of Cummings. It's right wing populism. 

The very vast majority of leavers are not racists, we should be blaming the politicians and the media.


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## Misterdog (15 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> People have been struggling to make a sensible debate about immigration but it has been overwhelmed by anti-immigration lobby hysteria, making claim after claim, strongly tinged with racism, which was the driving force behind brexit.



Are you sure the debate is not about population growth ?

"The population of the UK has increased by just over five million in 11 years - previously it took 35 years, from 1970 to 2005, to make the same leap". 

Immigration and racism are just sticking plasters to swerve the debate.

Compared to Germany.


"The population of Germany has fallen for the first time in a decade as a dip in net immigration compounded the effects of a long decline in the birth rate.

Since 2011 the number of people in the country had grown from 80.2 million to a record 83.2 million last year. In the past six months it has dropped by 40,000, according to provisional figures published yesterday by the Federal Statistical Office."


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## Daniel2 (15 Apr 2021)

It suits the establishment to have a divided population. It's easier to control.

"United we stand, divided we fall"

Solidarity sister/brother/other !!


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## doctor Bob (15 Apr 2021)

John Brown said:


> Someone's been honing their debating skills!



water off a ducks back ................... some are down the pub having a discussion and a laugh, others think they are at the oxford debating society, horses for courses, you are most welcome to look down at me, but fundanmentally your witty insults are the same spirit, different views, but we are the same, just you seem to suggest a little bit of superiority.
I always get the feeling John you dont like roughians. Unfortunately I am what I am. May I suggest you do a JRM impression and I do Danny dyer.
I wonder what the worst character defect is, using swear words and mickey taking or belittling people.


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## sploo (15 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> water off a ducks back ................... some are down the pub having a discussion and a laugh, others think they are at the oxford debating society, horses for courses, you are most welcome to look down at me, but fundanmentally your witty insults are the same spirit, different views, but we are the same, just you seem to suggest a little bit of superiority.
> I always get the feeling John you dont like roughians. Unfortunately I am what I am. May I suggest you do a JRM impression and I do Danny dyer.
> I wonder what the worst character defect is, using swear words and mickey taking or belittling people.


Bob, you've just done your standard cycle... again: posted content-free trolling ("_Age mate, wouldn't worry until you start shiitting your kaks._"), got called out for it, been triggered, and dropped into victim mode in the belief that someone's talking down to you.

Either become a better troll (i.e. interject trolling posts, but genuinely don't give a toss about any replies), or actually engage in the thread. This semi-trolling and then getting triggered due to some personal issues that you're being belittled really does no one any good.


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## sploo (15 Apr 2021)

Misterdog said:


> Are you sure the debate is not about population growth ?
> 
> "The population of the UK has increased by just over five million in 11 years - previously it took 35 years, from 1970 to 2005, to make the same leap".
> 
> Immigration and racism are just sticking plasters to swerve the debate.


Look at all those white people!






Point is; I have heard anti-Polish anti-immigration comments, but the large majority of anti-immigration rhetoric does seem to focus on people with funny names and funny skin colour, so I'm not convinced that those who push an anti-immigration agenda are primarily focussed on concerns about population size.


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## sploo (15 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> As James Dyson pointed out this morning,
> "We can employ people from all over the world
> previously we were only allowed to employ people from Europe and we couldn't get the engineers we needed.
> we now have 60 different nationalities now on our Wiltshire site.
> ...


Dyson? Seriously? The man's a clown. I saw his comments, and jeez; what a crock of total horsesh*t.

This is a guy who campaigned to leave the EU, then complained he would lose his EU farming subsidies (of which he receives - literally - millions of GBP).

His comments about the Oxford vaccine are staggeringly stupid. My wife (an NHS doctor, and an EU national) has worked directly with that (multinational) team. As I said; the man's a clown.


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## doctor Bob (15 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Bob, you've just done your standard cycle... again: posted content-free trolling ("_Age mate, wouldn't worry until you start shiitting your kaks._"), got called out for it, been triggered, and dropped into victim mode in the belief that someone's talking down to you.
> Either become a better troll (i.e. interject trolling posts, but genuinely don't give a toss about any replies), or actually engage in the thread. This semi-trolling and then getting triggered due to some personal issues that you're being belittled really does no one any good.



Nice life coaching, it's an internet forum ............................


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## sploo (15 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Nice life coaching, it's an internet forum ............................


As I said, content-free trolling.


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## D_W (15 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's all a lot worse than it looks.



The self pity and hand wringing will only be complete when another blimp hits a tower and explodes.


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## TRITON (15 Apr 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> Arguably, you don't have to look back very far to see that we all descended from immigrants and should maybe be a little more tolerant. The concept of a country having a border is only a few hundred years old. The language we speak didn't originate in the UK and most of our ancestors arrived in the UK less than 100 generations ago.


Arguably, that it one of the most argued points ever argued.



> If remainers call leavers racists all they are doing is increasing division....exactly the strategy of Cummings. It's right wing populism.



"United we stand, divided we fall"


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## Amateur (15 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> Dyson? Seriously? The man's a clown.



A clown calling a billionaire a clown.


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## doctor Bob (15 Apr 2021)

sploo said:


> As I said, content-free trolling.



Yeehaa there's a new sherrif in town?
you know I can do this for days, weeks if the fancy takes me.....................


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## MikeK (15 Apr 2021)

Until further notice, this thread is closed. More to follow.


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