# The cost of a microwave on standby



## RobinBHM (27 Apr 2022)

Apparently a microwave typically uses more energy per year powering the clock than heating food.

cost of keeping a microwave on for one year = £15 


could I be arzed to turn it off after every use…..Mmm not sure.


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## Sandyn (27 Apr 2022)

That figure will not be correct for all microwaves. I just checked mine and it uses 89p a year on standby. Would I spend 10 seconds of my life turning it off then 10 seconds to turn it on again at my age for 89p a year? No effin way.


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## flying haggis (27 Apr 2022)

And everytime you turn it back on you have to reset the clock.....


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## XH558 (27 Apr 2022)

flying haggis said:


> And every time you turn it back on you have to reset the clock.....


Do we actually need to set the clock? Haven't set our microwave clock in years. Just a thought. Watch, phone, oven, wall clock all within eyesight of the microwave. Nah, CBA.


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## Sandyn (27 Apr 2022)

Most equipment should comply with the One Watt Initiative EC 1275 2008 which limits power on standby.


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## Lorenzl (27 Apr 2022)

Some microwaves won't work without the clock set - at least one of ours wouldn't - we just set any time and it was happy.


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## John Brown (28 Apr 2022)

I tend to buy microwaves with mechanical timers. I'd be very surprised if they draw any current when idle.


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## Richard_C (28 Apr 2022)

Ah, but you don't get the precision of a digital timer. With small quantities or reheating your coffee you might be giving it 15 seconds more than you need. So you need to work out the energy cost of (say) 15 seconds unneeded use each day, about 7 minutes a month against the standby cost of a digital timer. Unless the clock is brightly back lit the latter will be minimal.


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## Spectric (28 Apr 2022)

This issue really comes down to building regs which are really outdated. What is required is an electrical system that has circuits with timers so for example all the entertainment devices like the Tv, set top boxes etc are on a radial that turns of at a certain time and comes back on in the morning, again at a preset time.

The other area where energy can be saved is having devices correctly setup, many have power saving modes which mean the device may take longer to power back up but consumes less when not in use, an example is our Freesat box.


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## John Brown (28 Apr 2022)

Richard_C said:


> Ah, but you don't get the precision of a digital timer. With small quantities or reheating your coffee you might be giving it 15 seconds more than you need. So you need to work out the energy cost of (say) 15 seconds unneeded use each day, about 7 minutes a month against the standby cost of a digital timer. Unless the clock is brightly back lit the latter will be minimal.


On the positive side, pretty much anybody who walks into my kitchen can operate the microwave, without having to consult instructions.
I honestly don't care that much about saving money on the microwave. We have two electric cookers, one of which is induction, two condenser tumble dryers that seem to be running permanently, two dishwashers and a plug-in hybrid car.


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## flying haggis (28 Apr 2022)

Trouble with having tv's etc being turned off is that some will lose stored channels and what if you have the sky box etc set to record something during the off time? Or what if you can't sleep for any reason and want to watch TV, you would need an override system.


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## John Brown (29 Apr 2022)

I find it hard to imagine that any TV made since the switch to digital would lose stored channels on power cycling. Does the TV need to be on for a Sky box to record? I wouldn't have thought so. On the other hand, I've never owned one. Certainly the Humax I had, and the Samsung recorder worked just fine with the TV off.


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## Fidget (29 Apr 2022)

My microwave has an 'Eco mode' button.
When I finally looked in the instructions as to what it did, the answer was 'Turns off the clock display' I use it religiously, thinking how much electricity I'm saving and how I am helping save the planet


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## TRITON (29 Apr 2022)

Im not really a fan of leaving things plugged in, the TV on standby the only exception. Certainly dont see the need to leave a microwave powered,be it on standby, or even the clock for that matter. What is the obsession with time 
If you really need a kitchen clock, and are desperate to know the time at any given second, go and bloody well make one.
This is UK Workshop after all and making a clock isn't exactly difficult.

I now look forward to the 'Look at the kitchen clock I made' thread


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## flying haggis (29 Apr 2022)

John Brown said:


> I find it hard to imagine that any TV made since the switch to digital would lose stored channels on power cycling. Does the TV need to be on for a Sky box to record? I wouldn't have thought so. On the other hand, I've never owned one. Certainly the Humax I had, and the Samsung recorder worked just fine with the TV off.


As you say the tv doesnt need to be on for a sky box to record but the suggestion was to turn off devices at certain times so the sky box etc couldnt be connected to that circuit. Some radios etc will lose the stored channels if unplugged so again couldnt be on that circuit. for the effort involved in fitting such a system I dont think it is worth it.


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## scholar (30 Apr 2022)

John Brown said:


> I tend to buy microwaves with mechanical timers. I'd be very surprised if they draw any current when idle.


So you have to wind up the clock on the microwave??


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## guineafowl21 (30 Apr 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Apparently a microwave typically uses more energy per year powering the clock than heating food.
> 
> cost of keeping a microwave on for one year = £15
> 
> ...


Assuming average unit price of 15p, that’s 100 units a year, or 0.27 units/day, equivalent to running a one-bar fire for 16 minutes every single day. Also equates to about 11W idle consumption.

Ours is a Panasonic inverter type, and uses 1.8W idle, equivalent to £2.36 per year at 15p/unit.

For those interested:
At idle, it draws 314mA at a phase angle of 88.61deg, which means it’s drawing about 77W of reactive power, which just bounces back and forth between me and the grid, and the 1.8W which I’m actually charged for.

I do wonder if the smart meter rollout will be used to introduce charging for low power factor usage such as this ^^^ in homes.


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## Spectric (30 Apr 2022)

flying haggis said:


> Trouble with having tv's etc being turned off is that some will lose stored channels and what if you have the sky box etc set to record something during the off time


The chanels are stored in non volatile memory so they will not be lost but a good point regards recording, how many of us will record programs that may be on after our bedtime that we will watch later when there is nothing else on but shiete. 

The only difference between actual and reactive power is that only actual power performs useful work, you will still pay for both as they are energy usage. Large industrial consumers will apply power factor correction to reduce the lead or lag between voltage and current because it can save a lot of money..


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## guineafowl21 (30 Apr 2022)

Spectric said:


> you will still pay for both as they are energy usage


My understanding is that domestic meters only measure, and charge for, real power, not apparent or reactive.


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## Richard_C (30 Apr 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> I do wonder if the smart meter rollout will be used to introduce charging for low power factor usage such as this ^^^ in homes.


I worked in a gas meter factory in the 70s. They were wholly mechanical, bellows and levers, and didn't register very low flow at all. It would have been possible to have free gas if you got a big enough gas proof bag and filled it very very slowly all year. There were other issues with that of course, not least having a huge bag of methane in the house.


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## Spectric (30 Apr 2022)

You may be right with domestic meters that just use induction to operate the mechanism but not sure about modern digital meters, I have heard they can read reactive. In a domestic setting I don't think power factor is going to have a great impact on cost unlike industry running large inductive motors and such.


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## guineafowl21 (30 Apr 2022)

Yes, I’ve heard smart meters can read all forms, so at the click of a button we could be charged extra, possibly for apparent power, which is of course always >= real power, so the power companies will benefit.


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## TheUnicorn (30 Apr 2022)

I have turned our microwave off at the switch for years, it has just become habit. I also (pretty much) never leave the telly on standby and I try to not leave lights on if I'm not in the room. it is not that I am massively environmental, I just don't see any real benifit of leaving things on if they are not in use.


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## Sandyn (30 Apr 2022)

Richard_C said:


> There were other issues with that of course, not least having a huge bag of methane in the house.



That's me!!!!!


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## Sandyn (30 Apr 2022)

EMC Standard EN/IEC 61000 3-2, ensures the power factor is within requirements. It looks at the harmonic currents generated by equipment. It applies to equipment of up to 16A per phase. I think the latest revision came into force in 2017.


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## ian33a (1 May 2022)

I've always left my desktop PC running as I couldn't be bothered to turn it off or hibernate it. I just got used to everything being virtually instantaneous when I wanted it. 

This thread got me to rethink what I was doing. I implemented hibernation and measured the time it takes to come out of it. Even including the time to type in my pin it was less than about 10 seconds - hardly a massive drain on my time. Power saving : about 100 watts. So, with electricity costing what it does now, that's a saving.

Also, with moving, I've been gradually packing away stuff that needs to be boxed. We're saving about another 100 watts from stuff that was generally on standby to now being in a box. When we do move, the trick will be to unbox it and not leave it always plugged in.

Put in context though, the big savings have to be in not putting too much water in the kettle and not leaving the oven or grill on any longer than really necessary. The big hit heaters have to be our biggest power drain.


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## Stevekane (1 May 2022)

ian33a said:


> I've always left my desktop PC running as I couldn't be bothered to turn it off or hibernate it. I just got used to everything being virtually instantaneous when I wanted it.
> 
> This thread got me to rethink what I was doing. I implemented hibernation and measured the time it takes to come out of it. Even including the time to type in my pin it was less than about 10 seconds - hardly a massive drain on my time. Power saving : about 100 watts. So, with electricity costing what it does now, that's a saving.
> 
> ...


So is that 200watts per year? Not so long ago we were using 100watt lamps,,thats 100watts consumption per hour in old money I think,,,and whilst Im in agreement with everything being said I still have the feeling that were just tinkering around the edges and a lot of this energy saving hype, like the old “if your paying too much its because your too idle to switch” is to create the impression its somehow our fault energy costs so much when in reality its to do with mismanagement by successive governments over the past 40 years or so,,,a failure to take the hard decisions,,and were now paying the price.
Steve.


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## Spectric (1 May 2022)

Another government failure is not introducing a scheme to give incentive to everyone to ditch old style lighting in favour of LED's including industry. Dump all the high bay sodium and discharge type lamps and old flourescent type fittings and the savings would be huge, so rather than trying to keep up with demand it should be reduced. The cost of energy should also be tiered, reward the low users and penalise the high users.


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## Old.bodger (1 May 2022)

Real life example of standby power at a constant of 200 w .
cottage in Cumbria. Economy 7 tariff. Two year , recent fixed term. Day unit cost £0.3283 per kwh Night £0.2225 kwh ignore the standing costs - they extract those any way.
7 night hours = 1.4kw (7x200w) at £0.2225 = £0. 31
17 day hours= 3.40kw (17x200w) at £0.3283=£1.11

Total per 24 hrs = £1.42

31 day month =£ 44 unless my logic / maths is wrong.


Here in the South East. Fixed non E7 Tariff due to end Feb 23.
£0.1764 kwh 24 hrs at 200 W = 4.8 kwh
So that will cost £0.85 a day £26.35 a month.

so it varies a lot !


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## ian33a (1 May 2022)

Stevekane said:


> So is that 200watts per year? Not so long ago we were using 100watt lamps,,thats 100watts consumption per hour in old money I think,,,and whilst Im in agreement with everything being said I still have the feeling that were just tinkering around the edges and a lot of this energy saving hype, like the old “if your paying too much its because your too idle to switch” is to create the impression its somehow our fault energy costs so much when in reality its to do with mismanagement by successive governments over the past 40 years or so,,,a failure to take the hard decisions,,and were now paying the price.
> Steve.



No, it's 200w average power consumption - so, in five hours, that's a KwH - so the cost is approximately £413 per year (minus the time the items are physically being used).

Even the pump in our modest fish pond is costing us about £100 a year to run now!



Before these price hikes I didn't give this whole thing much thought. With pinched budgets I'm less inclined to line the pockets of the shareholders of energy companies and I'm much more aware that incremental small changes gear up to make a massive difference.


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## ian33a (1 May 2022)

Old.bodger said:


> Real life example of standby power at a constant of 200 w .
> cottage in Cumbria. Economy 7 tariff. Two year , recent fixed term. Day unit cost £0.3283 per kwh Night £0.2225 kwh ignore the standing costs - they extract those any way.
> 7 night hours = 1.4kw (7x200w) at £0.2225 = £0. 31
> 17 day hours= 3.40kw (17x200w) at £0.3283=£1.11
> ...



Your maths lines up with mine (albeit, I'm now stuck on a higher priced tariff than you are) - and we can almost wave to each other across the Surrey countryside!


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## Stevekane (1 May 2022)

ian33a said:


> No, it's 200w average power consumption - so, in five hours, that's a KwH - so the cost is approximately £413 per year (minus the time the items are physically being used).
> 
> Even the pump in our modest fish pond is costing us about £100 a year to run now!
> 
> ...


Im getting very confused with all this,,,are we saying that running the led clock in the micro and telly can cost up to £413 per year? I sure Im misunderstanding something,,,
Steve.


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## guineafowl21 (1 May 2022)

Stevekane said:


> Im getting very confused with all this,,,are we saying that running the led clock in the micro and telly can cost up to £413 per year? I sure Im misunderstanding something,,,
> Steve.


Unlikely, since mine, for example, uses about £2.36 per year idle.

They may have found _A_ microwave that uses £15 a year, but most probably don’t.

I use one of these cheap/cheerful things; quite interesting to see what uses what, and when:





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Free delivery and returns on all eligible orders. Shop FLOUREON Power Meter UK Energy Monitor AC 230V~250V Power Consumption Meter Energy Cost Calculator Watt Voltage Amp Meter[Energy Class A+++] - 1pack.



www.amazon.co.uk


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## ian33a (1 May 2022)

Stevekane said:


> Im getting very confused with all this,,,are we saying that running the led clock in the micro and telly can cost up to £413 per year? I sure Im misunderstanding something,,,
> Steve.



Much of it comes down to the difference between *watts* and *watt-hour* :

All electrical items, even something like a battery wrist watch consume power if they are connected to a power source. The power source has a voltage potential between it's two terminals, in the UK, this is approximately 220v for mains (I'll ignore the difference between AC and DC in this illustration).

If an electrical item is connected between the two power source terminals, this electrical item will introduce a resistance between the two terminals of the power source. The resistance limits the amount of current that can flow from the power source into the electrical item and back out again. The current, in conjunction with the voltage available from the power source defines how much power the electrical item consumes. The circuitry inside the electrical item, often complex, needs a certain amount of current to make the electrical item work. If insufficient current is allowed into the electrical item, it wont work properly.

So, a couple of examples, a battery powered wrist watch requires very little current to operate, just a few millionths of an amp (the unit of current). An electric car requires tens of amps to operate. So, a wrist watch requires a small power source and an electric car requires a large power source.

Now, at any point in time we can measure the power required by our electrical device in *watts*. Put *simplistically*, it is the product of voltage and current. So, for my PC, needing 100W, at 220v supply it needs 0.454 Amps of current. This current keeps the microprocessor running, it keeps the memory intact, it drives the graphics card, the sound card and provides power to the various USB ports. The power taken by the PC, and most electrical items, will vary depending upon what we are doing with them at any point in time. With my PC, if I am simply reading email, it isn't taxing the hardware and the power drain is quite low. If I decided to play video games or do something which stresses the PC hard, it takes more current, and thus consumes more power.

When we pay for our electricity, the electricity companies charge us as an accumulated usage. They measure it in *Kilo watt hours* or KwH. The electricity meter samples the current which each of our houses draws from the national grid at fixed intervals and records the current taken over a period of time. So, in the case of my PC, consuming an average of 100W of power, it would take ten ours to consume 1 KwH of power (100W average over ten hours). If my energy supplier was charging me, say 25p per KwH, my PC would cost me 25p per ten hours. Over a year, there are 876 blocks of 10 hours, so my PC would cost me £206.74 to run.

If I put my PC into standby all year, it would still cost me a bit to run because some power is required to drive the basic system even though most of it is sleeping. When I made the measurement I looked at the delta between it being on and being in sleep mode and it's the delta that I used in the calculation.

My PC is a decent enough illustration as it's fairly average in terms of power consumption. 

If I had a 1000W microwave running continuously for a year it would consume 1000W continuously. That's ten times as much as my PC so the mircowave would cost me £2067 for the whole year! Obviously, nobody does that.

The thing is, when the microwave is not heating up my lunch, the clock is running and some simple support circuitry is also monitoring the microwave for safety and sensing when I press some buttons. All of this housekeeping may only be taking a small fraction of an amp of current so, because watts is a product of voltage and current, in standby mode, it may be consuming 1 or 2 or half a dozen watts. So, if it was consuming 5W, it can sit there for 200 hours before it consumes a single KwH and costs me 25p. (it does charge for fractions of Kwh, in case you are wondering)

So, be it mains driven or battery driven, the electronics industry has been put under massive pressure to minimise power usage. Lower power means that batteries need to be recharged (or replaced) less frequently or less power is consumed through our mains sockets.

If we unplug everything when we are not using it, it consumes less power and we are not charged. It is, however, inconvenient (having to reset the microwave clock, for example). So life becomes a balance between consuming (and costing) more power and convenience of usage.

My large OLED TV, as an example, consumes an average of 132W when I'm watching something on it. When I have turned it off with the remote control but not unplugged it, it consumes 0.5W. I would need to leave it in standby for 2000 hours before it cost me a single KwH of energy but I'm not going to turn it off at the wall and have to wait for the damn thing to boot up each and every time I use it so as to save that amount of energy...... this is how modern electronics has been designed to reduce power consumption.

(In case you are wondering - I spent most of my working life in the technology industry in electronic testing).


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## Craig22 (2 May 2022)

I've studiously avoided going for a smart meter. Part of that is the intensely irritating and various dumbing down adverts with all sorts of very iffy statistics to go for a smart meter (the latest being an Einstein look alike, for heaven's sake), part is no real need to do so because I am perfectly capable of reading the meter, and part is waiting for smart meter technology to stabilize.

Like Ian above, my background and working life has been in various high technology disciplines, largely electronics and optical systems development.

However, faced with a step increase in our energy cost of 86% (and more to come later in the year) I finally cracked and smart meters are about to be installed on 9th May. We're with Octopus by the way, who in the whole spectrum of energy suppliers are a good bunch to deal with.

Craig

PS Smart meters are *still* not stable. In England they communicate using 2G/3G. The government is phasing these out - in their entirety in 11 years - to make bandwidth room for 5G and (good heavens) 6G. So at some point smart meters will have to be upgraded to cope with a change in comms method.


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## ian33a (2 May 2022)

I've avoided smart meters too Craig. 

Initially, I didn't trust the energy providers motivation. Later I discovered that most were not compatible with PV systems (which we have). I built a PV dump system to use some of the surplus generated PV to heat water in the water tank. Doing that didn't fill me with confidence that they will work properly with that either. Then, there's the incompatibilities with the older ones if you move from one supplier to another. Doesn't fill me with a good feeling.

Like you, we are now with Octopus. Not through choice, through redirection when Avro popped their clogs. Octopus seem fine. We're in the process of moving, it may happen some day if the chain can all speak with one another :=). I'm hoping to get Octopus at the new place. There's PV there too. I'm hoping to re-install my PV dump there provided I can get the various modules to communicate with one another (the distances and wall thicknesses are larger).

I'm also seriously reconsidering a battery for the PV. I'd discounted the idea before as it didn't make financial sense. With these last price rises I will get my spreadsheets out again.


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## Craig22 (2 May 2022)

We've liked Octopus, and intend to stay with them. The price delta is not their fault - it is in common across the energy supplier industry. And they have not pushed us in any way to get a smart meter - they leave it to the customer to make a personal decision all on their own.

They will definitely not go pop the same way as Avro and umpteen others. Octpus's main business is financial services UK Investments | Octopus Investments so they have a well funded stable structure.

Craig


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## DRC (2 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> This issue really comes down to building regs which are really outdated. What is required is an electrical system that has circuits with timers so for example all the entertainment devices like the Tv, set top boxes etc are on a radial that turns of at a certain time and comes back on in the morning, again at a preset time.
> 
> The other area where energy can be saved is having devices correctly setup, many have power saving modes which mean the device may take longer to power back up but consumes less when not in use, an example is our Freesat box.


I thought some years ago (about 15-16yrs) about this standby issue and went down the road of all my TV's, recorders, HiFi ,aerial amp, and LED lamp transformers are plugged into Home Easy programmed sockets but you may say they (about 6 of them) consume current as well. The answer is, the current consumed is so small when they are in the OFF mode it's almost impossible to measure accurately. I also use this type of socket on other items around my home. The idea of PLC (Programmable Logic Control) controlled home was mooted about 20+ years ago but the take up was so small for the home/domestic market it never got off the ground in a big way. This sort of system can be easily fitted when building new homes so that everything can be programmed and altered and reprogrammed by the home owner. thereby saving energy costs. There is the perfect world and then there is reality.


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## Spectric (2 May 2022)

Smart meters are in the same stage of life as we went through with Betamax and VHS recorders, not enough standardisation and it is only the supplier who will benefit from people having these meters fitted, and I suppose the enviroment because they will not require people to travel round to read them occasionaly.

The adverts are misleading, they almost infer that a smart meter will save you energy without any action on your part which is nonsense, again I think they are aimed at people who are not savy enough to take control of their energy usage without some digital display, the ones who leave all the lights on and have been upto now rather carefree, but the only way to reduce consumption is to turn off electrical loads and if you are on bare minimum then unless you sit in the dark and vegetate what else can be done. 

I think the issue with smart meters has a lot to do with cost, just like we want the best woodworking machinery for less they need cheap meters due to the potential volume required. 

There are also situations where they just don't work due to comunication issues, so maybe rather than just rely on mobile they should have the option to use your broadband router.


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## ian33a (2 May 2022)

DRC said:


> I thought some years ago (about 15-16yrs) about this standby issue and went down the road of all my TV's, recorders, HiFi ,aerial amp, and LED lamp transformers are plugged into Home Easy programmed sockets but you may say they (about 6 of them) consume current as well. The answer is, the current consumed is so small when they are in the OFF mode it's almost impossible to measure accurately. I also use this type of socket on other items around my home. The idea of PLC (Programmable Logic Control) controlled home was mooted about 20+ years ago but the take up was so small for the home/domestic market it never got off the ground in a big way. This sort of system can be easily fitted when building new homes so that everything can be programmed and altered and reprogrammed by the home owner. thereby saving energy costs. There is the perfect world and then there is reality.



I'd discounted a lot of these systems in the past because the financial outlay didn't stack up against the potential savings. A lot of them are starting to become attractive now that we are in this _brave new energy world_ . 

I will certainly be reconsidering them when we move. In part, because our current house has so few power sockets, I've not explored the idea. The new place has an abundance of 13A outlets and it lends itself better to PLC.


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## Spectric (2 May 2022)

DRC said:


> I thought some years ago (about 15-16yrs) about this standby issue and went down the road of all my TV's, recorders, HiFi ,aerial amp, and LED lamp transformers are plugged into Home Easy programmed sockets


That method is local to the device, what is needed are the actual circuits controled by a timer in the consumer unit so if there were six devices on that circuit they would all be switched off and back on at set times, and using less energy in the process. Maybe this concept will become part of the Internet Of Things that is being talked about a lot but again you need a quality system that can be trusted, not some unreliable tack that does not give customers any confidence.


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## Spectric (2 May 2022)

I should also have mentioned that another benefit of such a system is that it can be incorporated into home security, it is ok saving power by leaving your house in darkness but for the sake of a few LED lights to make it look like someone is at home then the savings are not valid.


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## John Brown (2 May 2022)

ian33a said:


> I've avoided smart meters too Craig.
> 
> Initially, I didn't trust the energy providers motivation. Later I discovered that most were not compatible with PV systems (which we have). I built a PV dump system to use some of the surplus generated PV to heat water in the water tank. Doing that didn't fill me with confidence that they will work properly with that either. Then, there's the incompatibilities with the older ones if you move from one supplier to another. Doesn't fill me with a good feeling.
> 
> ...


Interested in your PV dump system. Did you build the export current sense part yourself? I have been considering such a thing for water heating or PHEV charging, although my current thinking is that simply measuring the insolation with a small solar cell parallel to the rooftop array could provide useful data.


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## ian33a (2 May 2022)

John Brown said:


> Interested in your PV dump system. Did you build the export current sense part yourself? I have been considering such a thing for water heating or PHEV charging, although my current thinking is that simply measuring the insolation with a small solar cell parallel to the rooftop array could provide useful data.



Hi John,

I built the system as a modified version of various offerings on Home | OpenEnergyMonitor . It was a few years ago now and I imagine that things have moved on in a big way. I calibrated the current sensors with known loads and got the whole thing reasonably accurate. It senses import as well as export current and then transmits the data to a display unit. The display unit gives an LCD readout of import as well as export power and when the unit is sending a signal to the triac which chops up the power going to the immersion heater. The unit also periodically flashes red, green or orange LED's to show import/export/dump so that we can turn on power hungry appliances at the appropriate times.

I think the whole thing cost be about £100 to build, plus my time and software coding. It was interesting and fun to play about with micro controllers and RF transmitters and receivers. I imagine that there are plenty of commercial systems available now and for not a whole lot more money.


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## Spectric (2 May 2022)

Hi @ian33a , out of curiousity what micro did you use? I am currently working on a P33EP512MU810 micro from Microchip and what a lot of changes since my last project using a dsPIC30F4013.


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## ian33a (2 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Hi @ian33a , out of curiousity what micro did you use? I am currently working on a P33EP512MU810 micro from Microchip and what a lot of changes since my last project using a dsPIC30F4013.



I used a load of arduino's - to be honest, it was a few years ago now and I can't remember that much about them! I think it was the ATMega328. In those days the sensors were all built from a kit of parts and the RF was done with plug in modules. 

At about that time I left the electronics industry and took a different direction. My wife and I started a small business and I became more interest in business management than soldering and software development.

Many of the 30 or so years I spent in the test industry were good years but I would really struggle to do anything of a highly technical nature now as I've been away from it for too long.


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## Spectric (2 May 2022)

ian33a said:


> I would really struggle to do anything of a highly technical nature now as I've been away from it for too long.


That has always been a problem in electronic's, just blink and you are out of touch. These days they talk a lot about Raspery Pies, in my days that was something you had with custard. Sounds like you were in the industry when there was no surface mount components and we used a lot of discrete 14 pin DIL logic chips, TTL and CMOS. I started my interest in electronics with valves and then germanium transistors when things like the OC71 came out, how things have changed and then now everything is programable and to small to easily work with.


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## ian33a (2 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> That has always been a problem in electronic's, just blink and you are out of touch. These days they talk a lot about Raspery Pies, in my days that was something you had with custard. Sounds like you were in the industry when there was no surface mount components and we used a lot of discrete 14 pin DIL logic chips, TTL and CMOS. I started my interest in electronics with valves and then germanium transistors when things like the OC71 came out, how things have changed and then now everything is programable and to small to easily work with.



I started out with discrete components but was working for a silicon chip producer - admittedly, much of it DIL and quite a bit military grade. The chips were simple but the thought of having a 1000 transistors on something the size of a finger nail was revolutionary.

I then moved to a big American company who built production test equipment for the silicon chip industry. I was one of the applications engineers covering the European region. By definition we were always using today's technology to test tomorrows innovation and as quickly as possible. It was always stressful hard work. Over the next 25 years I went from working with simple silicon chips in commodity products through to state of the art RF, from two sided small PCB designs through to 32 layer boards several feet long, from testing a single silicon chip at a time to testing 256 of them in parallel, each with millions of transistors contained within them. Mind blowing stuff - especially for an aging hack like me. Trouble was, as time went on, I was no longer seduced by the technology. I'd much sooner be doing the marketing and strategy ... but that was almost impossible to get involved in with a remote field office.

During those years the cost of the production equipment, which was around a couple million dollars at the start, ended up being a thousand times more complex and about half the price. The test equipment business totally mirrored how silicon chips became more and more of a commodity industry. Same was true with how people rated engineers and their contribution. The technology involved really was a true reflection of Moore's law while the economics was a mirror of ruthless cost cutting.

In the end I was fed up with chasing technology and, having been a manager there at one time, being ordered around by people half my age and told to do great new things that I had pioneered while they were still at school! So I got out and don't miss it a single bit!

I like the technology still, but I have no wish to deal in bits, bytes, microvolts and nano seconds anymore.

There's something so much healthier about being retired, somewhat in touch with the natural environment, being able to go for a walk or a cycle ride and not having to get on an aeroplane at a moments notice and having to deal with a pile of sh&t that somebody else created!


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## Spectric (2 May 2022)

ian33a said:


> In the end I was fed up with chasing technology and, having been a manager there at one time, being ordered around by people half my age and told to do great new things that I had pioneered while they were still at school!


I believe that the young engineers of today do not get as deeply involved with any products as was the norm for people like us years ago because now they seem to be just lego builders, assembling from pre written chunks. I think this has spread far and wide in order to save cost and raise profits, why use 10 top notch engineers when maybe 2 really good ones and 8 passable at far less cost can be used. There has been far to much de skilling in most trades and for no reason than to increase profits and speed up a job but often quality does suffer. Look at plumbing, rather than a skilled guy who can bend and solder pipework they use anyone who can throw pushfit pipework in fast. Yes retirement gives choice, you do what you want and when without looking at any clock, a good reward for a working life but sadly many youngsters will have longer working lives and minimal retirement to save the government paying out state pension.


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## ian33a (2 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> I believe that the young engineers of today do not get as deeply involved with any products as was the norm for people like us years ago because now they seem to be just lego builders, assembling from pre written chunks. I think this has spread far and wide in order to save cost and raise profits, why use 10 top notch engineers when maybe 2 really good ones and 8 passable at far less cost can be used. There has been far to much de skilling in most trades and for no reason than to increase profits and speed up a job but often quality does suffer. Look at plumbing, rather than a skilled guy who can bend and solder pipework they use anyone who can throw pushfit pipework in fast. Yes retirement gives choice, you do what you want and when without looking at any clock, a good reward for a working life but sadly many youngsters will have longer working lives and minimal retirement to save the government paying out state pension.



Indeed, there is too much pressure to get things finished because the product needs to steal a march on the competition. Consequently, things are more building block based and, in almost every way, that makes sense. In my day when I started, a complex project would take about three months to complete. By the end, a complex project, testing something a thousand times more complicated, would need ten people working for nine months - each doing a section of it. Nothing wrong with that as quality is always important. No sense, for example, not properly testing an air bag control system for a car!

Our son followed in my footsteps (but became more qualified) : he got a first class masters in Electronics but, by the time he'd got the qualification he realised what a life he would end up having. Pure engineering didn't float his boat anymore.

He took a job as an IT auditor with one of big four professional services companies and turned his back on pure engineering. I suspect this will suit him better long term. That said, nobody gets an easy ride, even there. Many colleagues are leaving or changing roles. Work is so cut throat now!

The more I see of how people are treated now the happier I am to be retired.


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## Sandyn (2 May 2022)

I've just had a great idea, I'm sure it's been thought of before, but a single really cheap device could be fitted to all electrical devices which would instantly solve the standby problem. It's a thing called a switch. It has two positions. If you put it in one position it connects the device to the power supply, but here's the really clever bit.....if you put the switch in the other position, it disconnects the power supply and the device uses NO power.


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## ian33a (2 May 2022)

Sandyn said:


> I've just had a great idea, I'm sure it's been thought of before, but a single really cheap device could be fitted to all electrical devices which would instantly solve the standby problem. It's a thing called a switch. It has two positions. If you put it in one position it connects the device to the power supply, but here's the really clever bit.....if you put the switch in the other position, it disconnects the power supply and the device uses NO power.



I'll quickly patent that !


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## sploo (2 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Smart meters are in the same stage of life as we went through with Betamax and VHS recorders, not enough standardisation and it is only the supplier who will benefit from people having these meters fitted, and I suppose the enviroment because they will not require people to travel round to read them occasionaly.


The current generation (SMETS2) meters are "standard"; in that they talk essentially the same language, and send data to the DCC (Home). If you switch supplier the meter should continue to work fine. The problem was the older SMETS1 smart meters; which usually became "dumb" if you switched; due to a lack of standardisation across the various meter manufacturers, and the route the meter used to send data. There is work ongoing to adopt the old SMETS1 meters, and allow them to talk to the DCC; so they can become "smart" again rather than having to be replaced.



Spectric said:


> The adverts are misleading, they almost infer that a smart meter will save you energy without any action on your part which is nonsense...


Agreed; which is the point of the displays you get with the meter - though granted I suspect a great many (majority?) of people look at the display a few times then either turn it off or just end up ignoring it.


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## woodieallen (2 May 2022)

Old.bodger said:


> Real life example of standby power at a constant of 200 w .
> cottage in Cumbria. Economy 7 tariff. Two year , recent fixed term. Day unit cost £0.3283 per kwh Night £0.2225 kwh ignore the standing costs - they extract those any way.
> 7 night hours = 1.4kw (7x200w) at £0.2225 = £0. 31
> 17 day hours= 3.40kw (17x200w) at £0.3283=£1.11
> ...


You also forgot to add the extra electricity cost in drying out all those outdoor clothes as it rains so much in Cumbria


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## woodieallen (2 May 2022)

Craig22 said:


> I've studiously avoided going for a smart meter. Part of that is the intensely irritating and various dumbing down adverts with all sorts of very iffy statistics to go for a smart meter (the latest being an Einstein look alike, for heaven's sake), part is no real need to do so because I am perfectly capable of reading the meter, and part is waiting for smart meter technology to stabilize.
> 
> Like Ian above, my background and working life has been in various high technology disciplines, largely electronics and optical systems development.
> 
> ...


Yebbut...what benefit does it give you ? I opted to fit the Emporia system....much, much more flexible and sophisticated. Let's you monitor consumption at the circuit level.


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## woodieallen (2 May 2022)

Spectric said:


> Smart meters are in the same stage of life as we went through with Betamax and VHS recorders, not enough standardisation and it is only the supplier who will benefit from people having these meters fitted, and I suppose the enviroment because they will not require people to travel round to read them occasionaly.



You're confusing market penetration with standardisation. Both Betamax and VHS were standards. Just different. The market decided that VHS was better.



Spectric said:


> There are also situations where they just don't work due to comunication issues, so maybe rather than just rely on mobile they should have the option to use your broadband router.



There are just so many things potentially wrong with that suggestion I really don't know where to start.


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## John Brown (2 May 2022)

I think they can be quite useful. I spotted that someone had left an electrically heated towel rail on in our house, which I would not have noticed normally. Sadly, our smart meter stops at zero, which is pretty stupid in a dwelling with PV panels...
We still have a "background" usage of about 700W, which puzzles me. Ok, we do have three fridges and a separate freezer, but that doesn't add up, in my estimation. I'm waiting for an empty house situation, so that I can investigate.


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## Scruples (3 May 2022)

Craig22 said:


> I've studiously avoided going for a smart meter. Part of that is the intensely irritating and various dumbing down adverts with all sorts of very iffy statistics to go for a smart meter (the latest being an Einstein look alike, for heaven's sake), part is no real need to do so because I am perfectly capable of reading the meter, and part is waiting for smart meter technology to stabilize.
> 
> Like Ian above, my background and working life has been in various high technology disciplines, largely electronics and optical systems development.
> 
> ...


Is anything that is technology related stable?


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## Jonm (3 May 2022)

John Brown said:


> I tend to buy microwaves with mechanical timers. I'd be very surprised if they draw any current when idle.


My wife once bought a microwave with electronic timer and loads of buttons and programs. She listened to my son in law and not me. The programs of course were never used and it was fiddly to set power and time. We now have a simple one, mechanical timer, easy to use, turn one dial for power and the other dial for time. If I want to know what time it is I look at the clock on the wall, or wristwatch, or tablet or phone, no need to look at a microwave.

I am not a technophobe, been using computers for over 50 years, I just cannot see the point of over complicating things for no reason.


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## Jonm (3 May 2022)

Sandyn said:


> Most equipment should comply with the One Watt Initiative EC 1275 2008 which limits power on standby.


The country voted to get rid of this type of “unnecessary“ EU red tape which is “drowning” us. It needs to go on the “bonfire”.


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## John Brown (3 May 2022)

Jonm said:


> My wife once bought a microwave with electronic timer and loads of buttons and programs. She listened to my son in law and not me. The programs of course were never used and it was fiddly to set power and time. We now have a simple one, mechanical timer, easy to use, turn one dial for power and the other dial for time. If I want to know what time it is I look at the clock on the wall, or wristwatch, or tablet or phone, no need to look at a microwave.
> 
> I am not a technophobe, been using computers for over 50 years, I just cannot see the point of over complicating things for no reason.


Agreed.
I am not a technophobe either. I was "coding" in the 70s, when it was called "programming".


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## John Brown (3 May 2022)

woodieallen said:


> You're confusing market penetration with standardisation. Both Betamax and VHS were standards. Just different. The market decided that VHS was better.


Even though, in reality, Betamax was the superior system.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 May 2022)

Yes, it was just that VHS got the lion's share of the market first. The same could probably be said for Windows?


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## Spectric (3 May 2022)

woodieallen said:


> The market decided that VHS was better.


It was not a question of which was better, it was whose marketing was able to push their standard past the finishing line first, Betamax was a better system. This happens a lot when the decisions are made by marketing and bean counters who tend to ignore the engineers. It is always said that engineers make lousy salesmen because they look at reality and facts, not opinions and marketing power.


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## Spectric (3 May 2022)

Windows is a good example, what about Internet explorer originally bundled with the Windows OS, Netscape was a better product and had the larger market share in the 1990's but lost out because Microsoft just included their browser with their OS. This did end up in the courts and they lost. But many a large corporation like Microsoft get so powerful they use their power to stiffle competition and gain market share, now the attention is with Apple so the heat is off for now.


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## Sandyn (3 May 2022)

Jonm said:


> The country voted to get rid of this type of “unnecessary“ EU red tape which is “drowning” us. It needs to go on the “bonfire”.


Unfortunately, it won't make much of a difference, possibly increase the red tape. 
From the first of Jan 23, there will be a new requirement. Rather than CE marking, it will be UKCA for the internal market . This will be based on existing standards. If a company wishes to export, they will still have to meet the relevant standards for these countries, *as well as* the new UKCA requirements. Generally the standards are the same the world over, ie the same as used in the EU with 'country differences' . The UK Government have published a list of applicable standards for the new UKCA compliance. The list is more or less the standards we have been working to whilst a member of the EU. There will be changes which will make it easier for companies to supply to the GB market, as there was whilst in the EU, but one thing will not change is that it is the manufacturers responsibility to place safe products on the market and the way of doing that is to demonstrate they meet relevant standards, So things have changed, but everything is more or less the same as before. Nothing will be going on the bonfire, but new standards will be required. The new UKCA requirement will mean additional work for most large exporting companies. It also means the world producers will have to now meet UKCA, but not a huge change.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 May 2022)

Surely the time has come for worldwide standards?


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## Sandyn (3 May 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Surely the time has come for worldwide standards?


the standards are very similar all over the world, but countries like to have control of their own standards.


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## Richard_C (3 May 2022)

I'll chip in on a few of the comments.

First up, smart meters. Don't have one, yet, managed to stop EON landing me with a smets1. I used to have a variable rate quarterly paid by DD account but now they have unilaterally changed that to monthly and nag me for a reading every month. Accessing the meter will be a pain when the cucumbers are growing. We have a rubbish phone signal here which means most neighbours with smart meters have to send readings in manually anyway so I'm not decided. The infrastructure which gathers data and sends it to suppliers is run by Capita, a very good reason not to join in.

The idea of worldwide standards for things is interesting and the reason for not having them is often commercial. I worked in the gas meter industry back in the 70s. UK meter bodies were deep drawn mild steel and failed the wholly irrelevant abrade/corrode test that the USA required. Theirs were aluminium but failed our 30 minutes at 800 degrees integrity test ( by which time the solder on the pipes would be long gone). But, the export market was nicely divided up so we didn't compete anywhere, some countries adopted our standards some adopted theirs. A common standard would have led to price competition, and no manufacturer wants that...

The whole KwH thing is very important. A few years back I swapped out the many bulbs in our long living room (4 sets of 4, GU10) for leds, going from 16x50w to 16x5w.a no brainer because in winter they are on for many hours each day. Not so a spare bedroom, 100wbulb but only on a couple of hours a week so no incentive to change. But, as led prices come down and electricity goes up, that equation changes and I am moving to led in a lot more places. Almost 100% there.

Spare a thought though for people who have no spare cash in the weekly budget and can't shell out £3 each for led bulbs in their rented flat with savings only realised in several weeks time. One good government initiative might be led bulb vouchers for people on UC.

And finally a quick win. Up in the loft I have a TV signal amplifier, on 24/7, only 3w. I remembered that those who transmit had jacked up the digital TV signal strength a year or two back, so went up and turned it off. TV still works fine, so that's worth maybe half a bottle of wine a year.

The next thing is to get really really good with a bowl gouge so I can work faster on the lathe so I save some motor running time


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## ian33a (3 May 2022)

Richard_C said:


> The whole KwH thing is very important. A few years back I swapped out the many bulbs in our long living room (4 sets of 4, GU10) for leds, going from 16x50w to 16x5w.a no brainer because in winter they are on for many hours each day. Not so a spare bedroom, 100wbulb but only on a couple of hours a week so no incentive to change. But, as led prices come down and electricity goes up, that equation changes and I am moving to led in a lot more places. Almost 100% there.



Our new place, if we ever get there, has a load of spotlights, which I think are halogen and almost as many incandescent bulbs everywhere else.

After moving in, job number one, or close to, will be to replace them with LED. It should help, minimally, to offset the cost of running the oil boiler.

It's amazing how cheap LED is now - that said, there's a load of rubbish out there and decent quality LED bulbs are not especially cheap.... but compared to electricity, cheap as chips!


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## 1steven (4 May 2022)

Am I the only person without a microwave?


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## Craig22 (4 May 2022)

I've already commented about my reticence to have a smart meter. Now we have LED lights throughout the house, and turn these off when not in use anyway. The loft is lagged and boarded.

So where, from our electricity consumption is 550W effective continuous 24/7 coming from (4680kWh/year)?. 

And where does the 2.2kW effective 24/7 of gas consumption come from (18,800kWh/year)?

We need to get a grip on this, because our bills have shot up from £1300 per year to £2450 (84% increase). And in October will go up again. As recent (semi retired) pensioners, this is a major hit, and needs to be taken seriously.

Hence a smart meter. Due for installation on 9th May, And my own personal (and others) reticence, arguments to the contrary, and other methods of monitoring can go hang.

Craig


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## Richard_C (4 May 2022)

Craig22 said:


> this is a major hit, and needs to be taken seriously.



Agree, and unless we make big changes to our way of life a lot of the answer will be in the sum of the small things.

I wonder now we can timeshift TV and films easily if we should get into the habit of early nights in winter and be active 07.00 to 22.00 rather than 08.00 to 24.00. 2 hours less lighting and heating needed. I guess if you live in the far north that makes little difference, I remember walks in Glencoe in December having to fit a 6 hour max slot. 

We have no gas supply in the village. Last year we replaced a 35 year old increasingly unreliable boiler with a new one which should be more efficient. One change is in the control: formerly it had trvs but no room thermostat, so the pump ran all the time the timer was calling for heat. Now there is a room thermostat as well, took a bit of effort to get it all balanced but now the pump only runs for about 1/4 of the time. That must save some electricity particularly in winter when we need to heat the house for several hours a day. I did read a good piece by an American physicist/energy guru who said that pushing hot water round 1/2 inch pipes was silly, bigger pipes means less work for the pump but that's not something to retro fit. 



I'm wondering about all sorts now. When we moved in 25 years ago there was, and still is, a motion sensing light in the drive. The bulb usage is minimal, but how much current does the motion sensing bit use 24/7? Anyone? Are newer ones different technology and more efficient?

Routers don't use much but again it's 24/7. When copper wire phones are switched off we will need routers on all the time.

Any other ideas, small loads but always or frequently on that we might overlook? 

(The other way to stay warm is to listen to any government minister handing out trite advice on the radio. Makes your blood boil....)


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## John Brown (4 May 2022)

I've used PIR motion sensors that draw less than 50uA at 3.3V, but I expect the ones in outside lamps are not so frugal. Apart from anything else, the mains to low voltage conversation is probably inefficient.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 May 2022)

[QUOTE="Richard_C, post: 1573139, member: 31850"

Routers don't use much but again it's 24/7 ...

[/QUOTE]

Bleddy hell! How much woodwork do you do?


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## nickds1 (4 May 2022)

I have replaced all 52 x 50W halogens (mostly MR11 with a few GU-10) with decent 5W LED GU-10s. Painful job - all 12V halogen transformers removed and all fittings changed to GU-10.

We have three-phase to the property, have a couple of outbuildings and use a ground source heat pump, so initially I wanted to see what the utility split &heat pump was doing.

As an engineer, I opted for the Emporia Vue2 system which is cheap and extraordinarily flexible - it handles three-phase pretty well however as it's new to the UK, it's setup is still fairly USA-centric. The architecture of the system though makes sense and the whole setup cost me about £200 if you include cabinets and the special "wide-mouthed" CTs (current transformers) that you need for clamp utility tails.

We use a lot of electricity - last year about 17,000kWh, so potentially we can save a lot of money. It's been a really interesting exercise - at the moment, we've saved about 40% of our usage. The house is a large eco-House we built about 15 years ago, but the outbuildings (Office/Cottage/workshops/sauna!) are power-hungry.

I made a small 3-phase consumer unit to supply & contain the Vue2 - it connects via WiFi to the house system. The Vue2 has capability for monitoring up to 16 circuits (other than the utility feed, which are another 3) and in this setup up only using 6 currently. Utility monitoring includes phase, voltage & power factor.

I've gone after the "low hanging fruit" first - the halogens, PCs that really don't need to be on all the time, having the heat pump serviced and upgraded to the latest firmware etc. so that its CoP is the best it can be (it's the single biggest user of power).

There's a simple truism - the last 5% takes 90% of the effort... so do the obvious stuff first, including white goods (fridges/freezers etc.)

I also can't over-emphasize the importance of insulation to prevent energy loss. Sensible hot water temperatures, running stuff between 00:00 & 07:00 (if you have Economy 7), turning stuff off when not needed etc.

Just noticed that our two hot water/heating circulation pumps consume nearly 90W between them and there's a third one used by the GSHP for circulation in the underground loops.

Also, we have a Klargester septic tank has continuously rotating (24/7) disks in it, so about to add that to the monitoring list, but not too sure if there's anything we can do about it!


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## Phil Pascoe (4 May 2022)

... running stuff between 00:00 & 07:00 (if you have Economy 7) ...

If you have E7, don't presume this is so. Mine is set 12.30am - 7.30am GMT, which means its 1.30am - 8.30am in summer time, which suits me better. Different suppliers will set the meters differently then they rarely get changed when the supplier changes - I've changed mine four times bit the meter's not been altered.


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## nickds1 (4 May 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> ... running stuff between 00:00 & 07:00 (if you have Economy 7) ...
> 
> If you have E7, don't presume this is so. Mine is set 12.30am - 7.30am GMT, which means its 1.30am - 8.30am in summer time, which suits me better. Different suppliers will set the meters differently then they rarely get changed when the supplier changes - I've changed mine four times bit the meter's not been altered.


We have a separate clock for E7 that trips the main 3-phase meter between high & low rates - it's set explicitly to 00:00 - 07:00 GMT. You can see it in the photos I posted.

EDIT: Uh, no it's not visible - it's just off the top of the photo of the meter cupboard.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 May 2022)

Does it get reset for summertime and back again for GMT?

Three of the four suppliers I've used since we we here have told me they've used different timescales, but no one has reset the clock. Octopus, that I'm with atm (thankfully, an 18 month fix) told me their night rate is (GMT) 11pm - 12am, then 1am - 7am ........... but no one's ever touched the clock, which is set as the installer set years ago. It's not a computer controlled meter.


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## ian33a (5 May 2022)

nickds1 said:


> I have replaced all 52 x 50W halogens (mostly MR11 with a few GU-10) with decent 5W LED GU-10s. Painful job - all 12V halogen transformers removed and all fittings changed to GU-10.
> 
> We have three-phase to the property, have a couple of outbuildings and use a ground source heat pump, so initially I wanted to see what the utility split &heat pump was doing.
> 
> ...



That's an interesting piece of kit. I imagine it works well back at the distribution board and can pick up _rings_ and direct apparatus which are consuming power. Presumably, because you need to connect it directly to the live wires and because the tails are short, it cant really monitor appliances directly connected to 13A outlets (unless nothing else is connected on the ring)?

I feel your pain with the changing of the halogens. I did about a dozen of these in our kitchen, it's hard on your arms and quite a dirty job. I wonder, assuming we ever move in, what I will find spotlight wise in our new place.


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## GweithdyDU (5 May 2022)

1steven said:


> Am I the only person without a microwave?


Nope. Have a perfectly good ex-restaurant6-ring LPG cooker that you can get a swan in and a fairly new-ish multi-fuel Rayburn. Why would I bother?


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## Stevekane (7 May 2022)

ian33a said:


> Much of it comes down to the difference between *watts* and *watt-hour* :
> 
> All electrical items, even something like a battery wrist watch consume power if they are connected to a power source. The power source has a voltage potential between it's two terminals, in the UK, this is approximately 220v for mains (I'll ignore the difference between AC and DC in this illustration).
> 
> ...


Ian Ive just read your post and its extremely informative, many thanks indeed for taking the trouble to do it, Steve.


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## RobinBHM (7 May 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Surely the time has come for worldwide standards?


Lots of EU stds are global standards.


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## nickds1 (7 May 2022)

RobinBHM said:


> Lots of EU stds are global standards.


Probably better to say that a number of standards are adopted either in part of full by other standards bodies. e.g. BSI (UK), DIN (Germany), ANSI (USA), IEC (Swiss), ISO (world), ITU (world) etc. all collaborate.

It's a horrible business. I once sat on a BSI standards body and nearly lost the will to live. Similarly, I was on an ANSI committee for the standardisation of one of the most popular commercial computer languages. Ghastly experience.


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