# Triangles



## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Good day

I would like to share with you what I did with the triangles from the post "Triangles"
view ... highlight=

Regards
niki


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[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T01mm.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T02.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T03.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T04.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T05.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T06.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T07.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T08.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T09.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Triangles%20after%20C%20and%20P/T10.jpg[/img]
```


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## Scrit (12 Mar 2007)

Hi Nicki






see you're back to climb routing , i.e. using the cutter wrong side again  

Scrit


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## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Hi Scrit

When I clicked on this picture URL, somehow, I thought of you and said to myself "what Scrit will say".

Sorry, but it's the best way that it works for me, I added 4mm iron "feather boards" and considering that I'm "shaving" only 0.1mm (measured) and using push shoes, I don't feel that it's unsafe but, of course everybody can decide for himself.

I posted it on some American forum (WWA), and to my surprise, I'm not the first one to use it, I got reply with pictures and the guy is doing it without "feather boards" or pushers, just with his hands.

If you will recommend, I will remove the picture

Regards
niki


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## Chris Knight (12 Mar 2007)

Scrit, Niki,
Unless my eyes deceive me, Niki is not climb routing in the picture. The work is indeed being fed from the left hand side but the cutter is cutting the outside face of the workpiece. It will tend to lift the work away from the fence (hence the featherboards I guess) but it is in no danger of grabbing the work and hurling it somewhere painful.


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## Scrit (12 Mar 2007)

Niki

I was taught, as any wood machinist is, that climb milling is potentially dangerous and to be used extremely sparingly even if its just a 1mm cut, that's all. Hence my note.

Scrit


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## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Thanks Scrit

Just small correction, it's 0.1mm (1/10 mm)

Ragrds
niki


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## Roger (12 Mar 2007)

Not the most robust / safest setup in the world :shock: but it isn't Climb Routing going from the left to the right of the photograph. I wouldn't go near it with that 'support' in any case but ...........

A reminder of what it COULD have done however if it were done the wrong way:

NOT for the squeamish !!

Finger Accident


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## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Thank you Chris

You are correct, I think that what Scrit means is that the workpiece is between the fence and the bit which is abnormal usage of router table.

Regards
niki


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## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Thank you Roger

Personally, I think that one "have to want" and accident on router table, or in other words, use his fingers as a push shoe.

That's the reason that I'm using those pushers (also on the table saw).

niki


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## Scrit (12 Mar 2007)

Sorry, what I meant to say was a trap cut  (i.e. one where there is increased risk of push back or kick back because the fence does not reside on the same side as the cutter) and not a climb cut. Still doesn't change my opinion on the safety of the issue. There you are, for those of you who want it - an error...... whoo hooo :lol: 

The reason why it is normal to run with pressure against a fence on the same side of the cut as the fence is two-fold: firstly it means that the cutter is partly or totally embedded in a fence - a safety issue, and secondly if the distant fence is not properly secured the extra pressure against the workpiece can knock the fence back and a kickback can occur or inaccurate cuts be produced. The fact that a distant fence arrangement requires that timber being pushed through the set-up be pretty much the same size with little or no variation makes me ask why do it at all? 

Surely the table saw isn't that inaccurate? And believe it or not MDF and plywood are both easily adjusted by either a hand plane or a belt sander/linisher or even dare I say it a thicknesser - no lengthy jigs to set up or anything else.

The warnings about injury ring true. From personal experience sticking a finger or thumb onto an (unguarded) cutter may bleed for up to a week (on and off and require daily redressing), can take 4 to 8 weeks to heal, leave you with partial mobility of the digit for up to 6 months and with a router cutter or saw blade laceration injury you'll probably end up losing part of the sense of touch in the digit which may or may not come back with time and physio. And that's if you are lucky. Today I met a guy who'd lost three fingers in an accident on an improperly guarded spindle moulder, only a small 30mm high beading cutter, too, not a hulking big one. Do I feel strongly on this subject - you bet I do 

Scrit


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## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Thanks Scrit

I was thinking about the Push back or Kick back that's the reason that I sharpen the infeed iron like a chisel and it acts like "no back brake" (the iron is spring loaded) but it never got into action (at least not till today).

In any case, I'm standing behind the fence (the straight edge) so even if a kick back occurs, I'm not there.

I'm using this set-up only for "glue-line" or when I want very consistent width.

niki


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## Scrit (12 Mar 2007)

Niki

If you really want to know the biggest danger of this cut is when you begin it. If your pressure springs are left off or are incorrectly positioned and insufficient pressure is maintained against the fence what in effect amounts to a climb cut can occur against the end of the workpiece. It only takes a second or two inattention to have the accident. I've made a similar mistake on a pin router - only once and that was enough (brown trousers and blood on the machine table)

Scrit


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## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Thank you Scrit

Because of the "step-by-step" procedure that I have, when I'm setting the bit the two iron bars are folded out, it's very difficult for me to forget to spring load the iron bars (unless I do it intentionally).

niki


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## MooreToolsPlease (12 Mar 2007)

Seems to me that particular operation is full of danger.
I personally would never use a router table in that manner, and it certainly hasn't ever crossed my mind too either.
After seeing it though one thought that has occurred to me is about the straightness of the jointed edge.
Assuming that the iron feather boards are putting a reasonable amount of pressure onto the stock, wouldn't they simply push out any bow in the length of the stock trying to be jointed?
I hope I have explained myself clearly :lol:


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## Paul.J (12 Mar 2007)

This reminds me of a place i worked at where no one would use the new overarm router they had.
They kept saying that it's a dangerous machine don't use it. :!: :!: 
When i asked them how they used it they were feeding the work in from the wrong side which just shot the piece straight off the table.
Needless to say when they were shown the correct way it was the best machine in the shop.
Point being is that even so called machinists don't always know the dangers. :!: :!: 
Paul.J.


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## Scrit (12 Mar 2007)

Paul.J":tyzl3ui0 said:


> When I asked them how they used it they were feeding the work in from the wrong side which just shot the piece straight off the table.
> Needless to say when they were shown the correct way it was the best machine in the shop.


That's one of the problems I experienced when moving from pin router to router table or spinmdle and back again in the course of a job. Linke many people my pin routers have each a big arrow drawn on the front of the spindle motors to remind me.....

Scrit


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## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Thank you for your replies

Matt
What you see is only part of a procedure, first, I put the concave side against the fence and that I turn the board and route the other side






And that's the result


















As for me, the operation look safe to me but, I think that everybody have decide for himself.
For example, nobody will convince me to use the "Grrriper" but thousands of Americans think that it's very safe and "I don't know how I managed before", "changed my woodworking", "I ordered 2 full sets" etc.(see posts on Sawmill creek, Woodnet and other forums) and that's from pro's...

Regards
niki


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## Scrit (12 Mar 2007)

Niki":1626us2j said:


> For example, nobody will convince me to use the "Grrriper" but thousands of Americans think that it's very safe and "I don't know how I managed before", "changed my woodworking", "I ordered 2 full sets" etc.(see posts on Sawmill creek, Woodnet and other forums) and that's from pro's...


Having seen the abysmally poor approach to safety at least some (no all the ones I visited....) small American shops display that's not really a surprise, Niki. But then that's a nation which thinks guns aren't a problem - and to whom the annual gun crime statistics for the UK seem "like a bad Saturday night in the Bronx (or Oakland, or the East Side or wherever.....)" :roll: In the EU the rule of thumb is always keep your fingers around 300 to 400 mm away from a blade if at all possible and that makes the Grrriper a bl**dy stupid piece of kit to use (sorry Mods, but the choice of terms is deliberate).

You know Niki, having seen the end result I could achieve that faster and with much less effort using a hand jointer plane or static overhand planer. I half wonder what Alf would say about it :wink: 

Scrit


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## Niki (12 Mar 2007)

Thanks Scrit

First, I agree with you 100% that the American "Safety" is very low and that's the reason that they are so exited from the "Euro stile" (only lately the Riving knife crossed the Atlantic) and your definition of the Grriper is more than correct (I would put it even stronger).

My hand skills are like your Chinese (I hop that you don't know Chinese) and as I'm saying, "if a cord or a buttery are not connected to it, for me, it's not a tool", so, hand plan is out of question.

But Scrit, I think that you have seen on my posts, especially those on the table saw, that I'm using the guard, Feather rollers, hold down rollers (I made new one with 2 rollers) and push shoes, not push stick but shoes, I'm not only pushing the wood forward (and into the fence) but I'm also holding it to the table.
It happened to me, when I was cutting "not so straight board" that I heard the saw screaming, yelling and crying "I want to kick back" but it could not overcome my 85 KG (yes, I got fat - the Polish food) and the blade just stopped.

Same on the router table, I'm using only push shoes to hold the work firmly to the table and somehow, I don't believe that the 800 W router (compare to 2500 W of the TS) can kickback my weight (as you noticed I'm using #36 on the shoes and it holds like nails) because at the beginning I made an experiment and pushed the wood deliberately into the bit (with the big push shoe, the one with the round stick in front), the bit just cut into the wood.

Best regards
niki


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## Alf (13 Mar 2007)

Scrit":qij8y9zh said:


> I half wonder what Alf would say about it :wink:


Hah, pretty obvious I'd have thought. Be quicker and 2000% safer to take a self-confessed novice hand plane user and teach 'em how. :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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