# Best vintage Chisels



## Richie555 (11 Sep 2021)

This post is partly a bit of fun and partly good info for beginners.
I would like to know what vintage Chisel brands everyone would rank as the best.
You can say the best chisel you have used or you can rank them, the choice is yours.
I don`t have enough experience with old chisels yet to make a valid contribution.

Have fun.


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## toolsntat (11 Sep 2021)

W.H.Clay 
1-1/4" Bevel edge 



Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## Jacob (11 Sep 2021)

toolsntat said:


> W.H.Clay
> 1-1/4" Bevel edge
> View attachment 117574


That fine style of chisel turns up quite often but I tend to see them as worn-out paring chisels which originally had blades much longer. Another clue is that they often have replacement handles as this one has, the original probably having been wrecked by many years of use.
Just a guess, I could be wrong.


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## dannyr (11 Sep 2021)

This was for sale locally last week - cost me all of 50p and both the seller and myself thought it was well worth it for the laugh.

But, more seriously , it was once a much loved Sheffield made chisel and the weird string repair obviously worked for a while as the piece of string over the



top has been beaten well into the wood. When I've finished rehandling and fettling it it will go on for another lifetime


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## dannyr (11 Sep 2021)

The other bargain bin classic chisel is a lucky dip ------ look for those with a chipped end and covered in paint i.e. used to open a tin of paint then stir it. I recently found a couple of very good Wards of Sheffield well preserved under a thick coat. Boxwood handles, £1 each from different sellers at a flea market.


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## thetyreman (11 Sep 2021)

ward


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## Orraloon (12 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> This was for sale locally last week - cost me all of 50p and both the seller and myself thought it was well worth it for the laugh.
> 
> But, more seriously , it was once a much loved Sheffield made chisel and the weird string repair obviously worked for a while as the piece of string over theView attachment 117577
> top has been beaten well into the wood. When I've finished rehandling and fettling it it will go on for another lifetime


That is actually a great way to get great chisels at little cost. The steel is good and will cleanup well. Got a nice ferrule too for the next handle. I have done up quite a few and made handles for them. The string repair does look like an act of desperation. Dodgy repair aside that is a good example of a good vintage chisel.
Most of my chisels came to me pretty beat up but if you are up for the rehab work then just about anything with Sheffield on it is worth the effort.
Regards
John


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## Keith 66 (12 Sep 2021)

Where do you start? In my collection of favorite users, Paring chisels by Mathesion, James Howarth & sons, Ward, Sorby and others!


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## workshopted (12 Sep 2021)

toolsntat said:


> W.H.Clay
> 1-1/4" Bevel edge
> View attachment 117574


This is nice one, Andy.


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## workshopted (12 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> This was for sale locally last week - cost me all of 50p and both the seller and myself thought it was well worth it for the laugh.
> 
> But, more seriously , it was once a much loved Sheffield made chisel and the weird string repair obviously worked for a while as the piece of string over theView attachment 117577
> top has been beaten well into the wood. When I've finished rehandling and fettling it it will go on for another lifetime


 I just love that string repair to the handle, and I'd be inclined to keep it like it is just for the smile.


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## workshopted (12 Sep 2021)

I'm a bit fickle... When I pick it up this 18 inch by 2 inch Patternmakers paring chisel by Ward & Payne is my favourite... I'm a sucker for boxwood handles.


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## workshopted (12 Sep 2021)

But when I pick up this James Howarth 16 inch by 1 1/4 inch chisel it becomes my favourite... I'm a sucker for ebony handles.


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## workshopted (12 Sep 2021)

But Thomas Ibbotson chisels could easily become my new favourites.


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## workshopted (12 Sep 2021)

But having said that, these 22 inch Moulson Bros could easily become my new favourites. Told you I was fickle... Grin!


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## johnnyb (12 Sep 2021)

always choose plastic handled sheffield steel. they are simply pragmatic. footprints are my favourite as marples can be a bit hit and miss steelwise.
the red handle is footprint the blue marples. both heavily used. stored in the same place. the footprint is simple high carbon....and much rustler.


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## johnnyb (12 Sep 2021)

both 20p from the car boot....why would anyone pay more.


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## D_W (12 Sep 2021)

Ibbotson, ward, i.sorby, nurse, some butcher and some older maples. I'm sure there are others made to a similar standard depending on era.

No clue who actually made the nurse paring chisel that I fished out of the uk.


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## Richie555 (12 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> But having said that, these 22 inch Moulson Bros could easily become my new favourites. Told you I was fickle... Grin!
> View attachment 117607



Wow, You have quite an amazing collection there. You have every right to be fickle with those. 
Jealous, Moi. No, not at all.


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## Richie555 (12 Sep 2021)

D_W said:


> Ibbotson, ward, i.sorby, nurse, some butcher and some older maples. I'm sure there are others made to a similar standard depending on era.
> 
> No clue who actually made the nurse paring chisel that I fished out of the uk.


 
How dare you fish for our chisels lol. I`ve never heard of Nurse.


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## thetyreman (12 Sep 2021)

the best plane iron I have from an old woody is an i-sorby, takes an amazing edge and seems to last longer for some reason.


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## dannyr (12 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> But having said that, these 22 inch Moulson Bros could easily become my new favourites. Told you I was fickle... Grin!
> View attachment 117607



Lovely stuff .. I give the Howarth the prize, but only by a whisker.

And yes, I may just clean the blade and keep the string.

Why not start an ongoing 'show us your chisels thread' for us nutters, sorry aficionados.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> I give the Howarth the prize, but only by a whisker.
> Why not start an ongoing 'show us your chisels thread' for us nutters, sorry aficionados.











2020 Secret Santa ......and we're off!


try getting a parcel to Crete....... ours was garanteed deliv in 8 days by a proper courier.....it took almost 5 weeks.....Covid and Xmas......hahaha... only not so.....




www.ukworkshop.co.uk


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## D_W (12 Sep 2021)

Richie555 said:


> How dare you fish for our chisels lol. I`ve never heard of Nurse.



I've got a Nurse plane and a large Nurse paring chisel. I believe there may have been more than one of them (sorry if I don't actually know that much about the different makers - I just like the tools and not much of a retro reader). But I think I may have one marked I.Nurse and one C.Nurse. Too lazy to go dig in the piles and see if I can find both. 

I think they were sellers of tools, not sure they were actually makers. I've seen Nurse on saws, too.


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## cowtown_eric (13 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> That fine style of chisel turns up quite often but I tend to see them as worn-out paring chisels which originally had blades much longer. Another clue is that they often have replacement handles as this one has, the original probably having been wrecked by many years of use.
> Just a guess, I could be wrong.



Well I dunno if it's "oldtools marketing hyperbole" or not, but the shorter/wider chisels are often referred to as sash ( ?-makers/repairers?) chisels As for being worn-out, a lot of these chisels had laminated blades were the edge was harder steel, and as long as you can see that (might take a real close look) they ain't worn out.

As for my fav's, I'm partial to Erik Antonberg swedish chisels. In the truck I have red-plastic up to 2", in the shop I have wooden socket "bergs"

Eric in the colonies.


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## Orraloon (13 Sep 2021)

Even worn out ones can sometimes be made use of. One that was just a stub made a great marking knife.


Regards
John


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## Just4Fun (13 Sep 2021)

cowtown_eric said:


> As for my fav's, I'm partial to Erik Antonberg swedish chisels.


I have an Erik Anton Berg double plane iron from around about 1905. It is superb, so if your chisels are the same I can understand why you like them.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2021)

cowtown_eric said:


> Well I dunno if it's "oldtools marketing hyperbole" or not, but the shorter/wider chisels are often referred to as sash ( ?-makers/repairers?) chisels


I've heard of _sash pocket_ chisels but never seen one.
Sash Pocket Chisels – William Marples and Sons, Ltd.
but not _sash chisel, _though there are _sash mortice_ chisels whose use is obvious


> As for being worn-out, a lot of these chisels had laminated blades were the edge was harder steel, and as long as you can see that (might take a real close look) they ain't worn out.


I meant worn short _,_ not worn out. They have exactly the same geometry, and laminated like a paring chisel of the same era, but are much shorter. I've got a couple of these both with replacement handles, which suggests years of use, which in turn suggests probably worn _short_. Just guessing though.
I've made hundreds of sash windows (period copies) but never really found a use for these _short paring_ or _sash(?) _chisels though I used a blunt one as a putty knife for many years


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## workshopted (13 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> I've heard of _sash pocket_ chisels but never seen one.
> Sash Pocket Chisels – William Marples and Sons, Ltd.
> but not _sash chisel, _though there are _sash mortice_ chisels whose use is obviousI meant worn short _,_ not worn out. They have exactly the same geometry, and laminated like a paring chisel of the same era, but are much shorter. I've got a couple of these both with replacement handles, which suggests years of use, which in turn suggests probably worn _short_. Just guessing though.
> I've made hundreds of sash windows (period copies) but never really found a use for these _short paring_ or _sash(?) _chisels though I used a blunt one as a putty knife for many years


Did someone mention sash pocket chisels? Grin!


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## workshopted (13 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> Lovely stuff .. I give the Howarth the prize, but only by a whisker.
> 
> And yes, I may just clean the blade and keep the string.
> 
> Why not start an ongoing 'show us your chisels thread' for us nutters, sorry aficionados.


I think you were right the first time, Danny. I've often been called a nutter - but never an aficionado.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> Did someone mention sash pocket chisels? Grin!
> View attachment 117668


Impressed!
Are they thin? Have you tried using one to cut a sash pocket? Just wondering how useful they are.


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## workshopted (13 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Impressed!
> Are they thin? Have you tried using one to cut a sash pocket? Just wondering how useful they are.


Yes, Jacob, but many years ago - they're the right tool for the job. just trying to find a pic for you to see how thin they are.


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## workshopted (13 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Impressed!
> Are they thin? Have you tried using one to cut a sash pocket? Just wondering how useful they are.


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## dannyr (13 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> Did someone mention sash pocket chisels? Grin!
> View attachment 117668



Were the sash pocket chisels used to cut the opening in the fairly thin side frame wood that gives access to the rope and counterweight? I'm not a much experienced expert like some of you, but I was repairing our double sashed window in this room (sash shutter inside sash window C1890) -- so eight counterweights and one got hung up on a snag so I had to cut an access hole - used a wide auger, but sash pocket chisel might have been better. 

And the plough/saw hybrid behind --- what's it called -- looks a bit like a fancy stair saw, but is it for the starting guide cut for ripping a thin board?

Keep coming with your fine chisels and just as much the interesting tool related backgrounds .... appreciated.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> Were the sash pocket chisels used to cut the opening in the fairly thin side frame wood that gives access to the rope and counterweight? .....


So it is said but I've removed 100s of old sashes and never seen a sash pocket obviously chiselled out - and they are easy to saw when making the pulley stiles.
They are also very uncommon, unlike sash mortice chisels, and I wonder if they are a bit specialised and perhaps just for those uncommon sash pockets cut into the inside lining, which are difficult to saw out and would then need a piece making up to fit the hole neatly.


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## 6x4 (13 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> But having said that, these 22 inch Moulson Bros could easily become my new favourites. Told you I was fickle... Grin!
> View attachment 117607


@workshopted I think you are teasing us. It’s working.


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## Richie555 (13 Sep 2021)

Why not start an ongoing 'show us your chisels thread' for us nutters, sorry aficionados.
[/QUOTE]

That's a good idea.


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## Steve Beck (13 Sep 2021)

I have an inquiry for you Brits.
I am a user of many Record planes in my shop. My favorite chisels are IBC made in Canada. I have been using Marples blue handled chisels for general purpose tasks for many years. They are a good serviceable chisel and hold an edge pretty good.
Now my inquiry:
What is the steel that Marples used for the older blue handled chisels?
I have "googled it and really can not come up with any answer.
I suspect it may be a high carbon steel.


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## johnnyb (13 Sep 2021)

I can photo a sash pocket thats obviously been chiseled tomorrow. pulley lining are pretty chunky tbh 1 inch normally. I think they chopped a vee about half way. Well have a look tomorrow. what I will say is the pockets still seat and fit superbly well. no screws nails or owt needed.


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

johnnyb said:


> I can photo a sash pocket thats obviously been chiseled tomorrow. pulley lining are pretty chunky tbh 1 inch normally. I think they chopped a vee about half way. Well have a look tomorrow. what I will say is the pockets still seat and fit superbly well. no screws nails or owt needed.


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> Were the sash pocket chisels used to cut the opening in the fairly thin side frame wood that gives access to the rope and counterweight? I'm not a much experienced expert like some of you, but I was repairing our double sashed window in this room (sash shutter inside sash window C1890) -- so eight counterweights and one got hung up on a snag so I had to cut an access hole - used a wide auger, but sash pocket chisel might have been better.
> 
> And the plough/saw hybrid behind --- what's it called -- looks a bit like a fancy stair saw, but is it for the starting guide cut for ripping a thin board?
> 
> Keep coming with your fine chisels and just as much the interesting tool related backgrounds .... appreciated.


Right first time, Danny. It's what I know as an English style staircase saw.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> View attachment 117764


That's how I've always done them with a saw, before the frame is built up of course. 2 drill holes in the parting bead slot to cut the long side with a hole saw. 2 tenon saw cuts from the front, 2 from the back, whack it with a hammer to break it out. Important to choose pieces for the pulley stiles without knots or wild grain where the break out must happen, or it may not break neatly.


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> That's how I've always done them with a saw, before the frame is built up of course. 2 drill holes in the parting bead slot to cut the long side with a hole saw. 2 tenon saw cuts from the front, 2 from the back, whack it with a hammer to break it out. Important to choose pieces for the pulley stiles without knots or wild grain where the break out must happen, or it may not break neatly.


As always, the choice of the right stuff is important... But after reading under your name and seeing, 
*''Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please'' I have a question for you - What about a pickled egg with those crisps? Chuckle!*


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> As always, the choice of the right stuff is important... But after reading under your name and seeing,
> *''Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please'' I have a question for you - What about a pickled egg with those crisps? Chuckle!*


Yes but exceeds the word allowance! We call it a scotch egg here, they know what you mean behind the bar.
Paradise:


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2021)

Pickled eggs and Scotch eggs are totally different.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Pickled eggs and Scotch eggs are totally different.


In our local pub a "scotch egg" means a pickled egg in a packet of crisps. They don't do the Scottish variety so there is no misunderstanding.
Hope that helps.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2021)

What your local pub calls it doesn't really matter to the rest of the Country.

Hope that helps.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> What your local pub calls it doesn't really matter to the rest of the Country.
> 
> Hope that helps.


In our pub we really don't care what the rest of the country call scotch eggs.
Hope that helps.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2021)

Great. So long as you never go anywhere else. Which you probably don't.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Great. So long as you never go anywhere else. Which you probably don't.


Don't worry about the scotch egg thing Phil!


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yes but exceeds the word allowance! We call it a scotch egg here, they know what you mean behind the bar.
> Paradise:
> 
> View attachment 117768


Thanks for making me feel hungry, Jacob... Sigh!


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## JobandKnock (14 Sep 2021)

cowtown_eric said:


> Well I dunno if it's "oldtools marketing hyperbole" or not, but the shorter/wider chisels are often referred to as sash ( ?-makers/repairers?) chisels


It's hyperbole. This is a sash _*pocket*_ chisel (left) next to a traditional bevel edge chisel (right). Note how this it is in comparison




Designed for taking out the sash weight pocket on traditional vertical sliding sash windows. Not the same as a bevel edge chisel at all. The old guy this came from did repair work on sashes rather than make from new

Now you've seen several, Jacob


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> It's hyperbole. This is a sash _*pocket*_ chisel (left) next to a traditional bevel edge chisel (right). Note how this it is in comparison
> 
> View attachment 117785
> 
> ...


You might say that Jacob's comment has caused pics of sash pocket chisels to come flying out of the woodwork. Hahaha!


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## JobandKnock (14 Sep 2021)

Interesting thing about that one is that it isn't sharpened to a point, but has a very small flat on the end. Used to pry out then clean up sash pocket covers out on the job without damaging them too much, rather than for chopping them out on the bench


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Interesting thing about that one is that it isn't sharpened to a point, but has a very small flat on the end. Used to pry out then clean up sash pocket covers out on the job without damaging them too much, rather than for chopping them out on the bench


Well that's a mystery solved for me and I've been thinking about it for years!


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## JobandKnock (14 Sep 2021)

If you think about it, these are very thin chisels. The handles on all the ones I've seen (as well as those in catalogues) have neither a ferrule at the top, nor a leather washer at the bottom. So not really meant to be struck hard with a hammer or heavily at all, I'd say, although they were often offered with an ash handle 

Possibly used differently in the field than in the workshop?


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> If you think about it, these are very thin chisels. The handles on all the ones I've seen (as well as those in catalogues) have neither a ferrule at the top, nor a leather washer at the bottom. So not really meant to be struck with a hammer or heavily at all, I'd say, although they were often offered with an ash handle
> 
> Possibly used differently in the field than in the workshop?


Not used in the workshop I guess. Just for maintenance. Have been doing the same thing for years with fishtail scraper.


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

And one of these is handy if you're into making Georgian windows.


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## dannyr (14 Sep 2021)

Forgotten the name, but isn't that for the joint where thin glazing bars meet, with positioning and overshoot protection built in?

You do have a fine collection, Ted ...... Keep 'em coming.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> And one of these is handy if you're into making Georgian windows.
> View attachment 117817


Well it looks really useful.  What is it for?


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## johnnyb (14 Sep 2021)

so have the panel decided sash pocket chisels were for maintenance rather than manufacture? the pockets I've got the parting groove runs down the middle but the ends are definitely chiselled. I'll try and remember not to forget to take a snap!


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

johnnyb said:


> so have the panel decided sash pocket chisels were for maintenance rather than manufacture? the pockets I've got the parting groove runs down the middle but the ends are definitely chiselled. I'll try and remember not to forget to take a snap!


In my opinion, they are used for both.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

johnnyb said:


> so have the panel decided sash pocket chisels were for maintenance rather than manufacture? the pockets I've got the parting groove runs down the middle but the ends are definitely chiselled. I'll try and remember not to forget to take a snap!


I've seen pockets in the middle but never taken one out so they are a mystery to me.


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> Forgotten the name, but isn't that for the joint where thin glazing bars meet, with positioning and overshoot protection built in?
> 
> You do have a fine collection, Ted ...... Keep 'em coming.


Hi, Danny, you could do worse than read this article by Jane Rees.


http://www.hackneytools.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Specialist%20Tools%20for%20Sash%20Window%20Making%20-%20web%20version.pdf


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## workshopted (14 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Well it looks really useful.  What is it for?


It's a sash scribing gouge for working the glazing bar joints...


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> Hi, Danny, you could do worse than read this article by Jane Rees.
> 
> 
> http://www.hackneytools.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Specialist%20Tools%20for%20Sash%20Window%20Making%20-%20web%20version.pdf


Thats interesting. Had a quick glance
_It is necessary to make both transverse and longitudinal cuts in a position that cannot be reached with general tools. A special chisel – the sash pocket chisel – was developed for this job, though the exact way it was intended to be used is still a matter of speculation. The basic use was to cut the fibres at the end of the pocket that could not be reached by a saw but it could also have been used for making the longitudinal cut at the side of the pocket._
She's wrong there it's easy to cut the pockets with a saw I've done hundreds. It's done on the bench before the case is built.
But all on the bottom sash side.
Maybe the chisel is for the middle-of-stile pockets or the pockets in inside linings. Both are uncommon and I can''t see much point in them either.


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## JobandKnock (15 Sep 2021)

johnnyb said:


> the pockets I've got the parting groove runs down the middle but the ends are definitely chiselled. I'll try and remember not to forget to take a snap!


7 or 8 years ago we did a refurb job on 88 vertical sliding sashes in a Victorian "office block". It was necessary to take out the sash pocket covers on about a third of them so we could replace the sash cords. TBH the woodwork in the openings was generally pretty rough, but at the time I just put that down to age and weather (and 3 storeys up on scaffolding in the middle of January I wasn't going to be hanging about to do a detailed examination). I used a shsrpened cat's paw pry bar and a thin sash saw (mainly used to saw out painted sash frames) to do the job

We also needed to replace a number of the covers where the originals got split getting them out (or in some cases were already split). This seemed often enough to be because the gaps around them were filled with linseed oil putty which had set rock hard over time.

I did notice that the more modern windows (replacements) had the sash pockets completely in the lower sash track, as the drawing below shows:





whilst older windows had the sash pockets across both tracks. I have made a few of the modern type windows (not many) - the old fellah who showed me how to used an Arcoy rebate saw attachment and an electric drill to make most of the saw cuts (being a steel saw the kerf is quite fine) finishing with a beading saw before splitting the pocket covers out with a thin bevel edge chisel from the side. No sash pocket chisel. This seems To be the same sort if process Jacob refers to.

Keeping the pocket to one of the tracks certainly improves storm performance and looks better (less putty or filler requiredbefore painting) even if it does mean your midfeathers need to be a tad shorter.

BTW, the drawing has a rather obvious rot point where the outside lining meets the cill. I was frequently told it is better to cut back (scallop) the bottom corner of the outside lining, if you can, so that water doesn't get trapped behind the lining snd start rot. But then, I"d say that modern paints are a much greater rot initiator than the joinery details


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## johnnyb (15 Sep 2021)

here's some pics of that sash pocket. it's definitely neatly chiseled out. I'm not quite sure how the sides dobe were tbh. it looks a bit smooth to be sawn.


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2021)

johnnyb said:


> here's some pics of that sash pocket. it's definitely neatly chiseled out. I'm not quite sure how the sides dobe were tbh. it looks a bit smooth to be sawn.


Interesting thanks for that! I'm still mystified as to quite how they did it and why. Yes you can see the chisel marks of a full width chisel.


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## toolsntat (16 Sep 2021)

It's all great saying that a saw can be used to make all the pocket cuts but do you not end up with 2 saw kerfs of gap on the best face ?
Back cuts are ok with the saw but face cuts benefit from the slicing of the pocket chisel, dipped in water beforehand to help reform any out of place fibres.

Cheers Andy


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2021)

toolsntat said:


> It's all great saying that a saw can be used to make all the pocket cuts but do you not end up with 2 saw kerfs of gap on the best face ?


Yes but behind the bottom sash when it's closed and hardly noticeable when it's open.


> Back cuts are ok with the saw but face cuts benefit from the slicing of the pocket chisel, dipped in water beforehand to help reform any out of place fibres.


I've never seen this done and I don't see how even a thin chisel cut could produce a thinner kerf, but it's an idea! The chisel cuts on jonnyb's are from the back and don't look particularly tidy, though they are full width of the pocket.
Come to think I don't see how you could easily hammer a 2"wide chisel, however thin, 1/2" into a piece of wood.


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## johnnyb (16 Sep 2021)

having the parting bead in the middle would help stop the pocket falling out. I can snap the rear of the pulley stiles tomorrow.


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2021)

johnnyb said:


> having the parting bead in the middle would help stop the pocket falling out. I can snap the rear of the pulley stiles tomorrow.


What could be really good would be an autopsy on the stile and pocket together on the bench, strip paint have close look etc. Should be possible to work out exactly how they did it! Even work out why?


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## workshopted (16 Sep 2021)

And if you're replacing sash cords you're gonna need a Mouse and a piece of string.


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> And if you're replacing sash cords you're gonna need a Mouse and a piece of string.


and know how to thread it "cat's cradle" fashion; quicker easier and saves on sash chord.


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## workshopted (16 Sep 2021)

Richie555 said:


> This post is partly a bit of fun and partly good info for beginners.
> I would like to know what vintage Chisel brands everyone would rank as the best.
> You can say the best chisel you have used or you can rank them, the choice is yours.
> I don`t have enough experience with old chisels yet to make a valid contribution.
> ...


Hi, Richie, can you see the trouble your post has caused?


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## workshopted (16 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> and know how to thread it "cat's cradle" fashion; quicker easier and saves on sash chord.


Hi, Jacob, your mention of cats cradle n string bring back fond memories of my childhood days. Did you ever make telephone's out of empty tin cans and string?


----------



## Jacob (16 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> Hi, Jacob, your mention of cats cradle n string bring back fond memories of my childhood days. Did you ever make telephone's out of empty tin cans and string?


Certainly did! Treacle tins. Also with hosepipe from room to room. Leave a whistle plugged in so you know when someones trying to call you. In fact a good idea might fix one up in this place.


----------



## workshopted (16 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Certainly did! Treacle tins. Also with hosepipe from room to room. Leave a whistle plugged in so you know when someones trying to call you. In fact a good idea might fix one up in this place.


*"Whistle While You Work" And, Hose While You Pose.      *


----------



## dannyr (16 Sep 2021)

talking of treacle tins , remember when they were mugs and kettles for tea , over a brazier?


----------



## JobandKnock (16 Sep 2021)

Sounds like you've worked some rough sites there, boyo


----------



## Jacob (16 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> talking of treacle tins , remember when they were mugs and kettles for tea , over a brazier?


We had white enamel billy cans or "snap cans" with a cup on top. Bring your own with some tea leaves in it and somebody would take them off and bring them back at 12 filled with boiling water.


----------



## JobandKnock (16 Sep 2021)

Sounds like you were never the apprentice.


----------



## Jacob (16 Sep 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Sounds like you were never the apprentice.


Builders labourer - one of my many early career moves. A lot of digging with pick shovel and barrow. JCBs weren't that common back then. Concrete mixers hand loaded, ready mix hadn't been invented. Bricks and cements unloaded by hand. Fork lift trucks weren't that common either! Did do some shuttering joinery just as a labourer.


----------



## Richie555 (16 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> Hi, Richie, can you see the trouble your post has caused?



Yes, Great isn`t it lol. I know lots more about Sash chisels now and a surprising amount about scotch eggs that I didn`t know about.


----------



## Jacob (16 Sep 2021)

Back on topic! Not for long I presume.
Couldn't load pictures in intended order so this looks a but confused:

Best vintage chisel, not this one a Narex paring:







Heavy crude and thick





Compare contrast with two old paring chisels





This a 1 1/4 " paring, very fine but but very short - years of use worn out and new old handle. Not a lot of use so ended up as a putty knife. Sorry C Taylor!





This a 1" paring A Hildick "Diamic" with War Dept bench mark 1944. My birth year! A very fine chisel and a pleasure to use, 2/3rd the weight of the same size length 1" Narex and much thinner




all 3 together. Narex a clumsy lump in comparison to the other two


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## TRITON (16 Sep 2021)

I've a favoured old chisel I usually use on dovetails. It's got no makers mark I can see, probably honed off years ago, all i can make out is Sheffield Cast Steel. its 1" by about 2 1/2-3mm thick for much of it, oak handle. I love it because I can get it very very sharp.
I've a tendency to put really shallow angles on it to utilize its super sharp ability, but that doesn't last long so I use it really just for hand paring.
Its about 10" overall, with 3 1/2" of blade


----------



## JobandKnock (16 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> JCBs weren't that common back then. Concrete mixers hand loaded, ready mix hadn't been invented.


JCBs really took off in the1960s, things like the Manitou site FLT probably 1980s. You're showing your age!



Jacob said:


> Bricks and cements unloaded by hand.


I can remember that. If you went onto a site as a chippy you'd often be asked to make up knocking up tables or floats (and even hawks) for the plasterers (they often had their own handles in lime wood), whilst the brickies always seemed to need spot boards or maybe even a hod or two to be made out of plywood. All good apprentice tasks


----------



## workshopted (17 Sep 2021)

Richie555 said:


> Yes, Great isn`t it lol. I know lots more about Sash chisels now and a surprising amount about scotch eggs that I didn`t know about.


----------



## workshopted (17 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> We had white enamel billy cans or "snap cans" with a cup on top. Bring your own with some tea leaves in it and somebody would take them off and bring them back at 12 filled with boiling water.


I do so remember those, Jacob, but I didn't know that you can still buy them.


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## workshopted (17 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Back on topic! Not for long I presume.
> Couldn't load pictures in intended order so this looks a but confused:
> 
> Best vintage chisel, not this one a Narex paring:
> ...


Some nice old brand names there.


----------



## workshopted (17 Sep 2021)

And you may find some mortice chisels handy... these are by Brades & Co, and Marples.


----------



## cowtown_eric (18 Sep 2021)

This discussion has educated me substantially. Here in the western Canadas a house made 100 years ago is celebrated if it still stands, 

And the knowledge of the tools and skills to repair and maintain them is rapidly fading. 

Eric
Enoying my #makerspace......protospace.ca


----------



## TRITON (18 Sep 2021)

Took another closer look at the few older chisels ive got, I've a total of 4.
1. As above, can only read 'Sheffield Cast Steel' 1" firmer
2. J.Howarth 3/4" firmer
3. I can just make out Marples on it, 3/4" bevel
4. A gouge 3/4"(maybe less actual cutting size) and I can make Hooper's, something below that but illegible.- Maybe make out a POR,possible T, but the rest is gone.
All appear to be cast steel
The last one (No4) I've never heard of. anyone ?

I'll get some pics up soonish, just lining some small windows on my Cat Bothy.


----------



## Jameshow (18 Sep 2021)

I've just brought 4 old blue Stanley 5001 chisels. 

Are they any good? 

Cheers James


----------



## Richie555 (18 Sep 2021)

Its time i posted a few pics now. I've only just started with vintage chisels. Up until now I used a Narex set (which I'm happy with).
Here is my new/old additions....


----------



## Richie555 (18 Sep 2021)

Here a a Robert Sorby...


----------



## Richie555 (18 Sep 2021)

Marples


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## Richie555 (18 Sep 2021)

Stormont mortice chisel. Sizes will be added when I've measured them again.


----------



## Richie555 (18 Sep 2021)

Marples 1/4"mortice chisel.


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## workshopted (19 Sep 2021)

Richie555 said:


> Marples 1/4"mortice chisel.


You have some top brand names here, my friend.


----------



## rob1693 (19 Sep 2021)

Not chisels but gouges issac greaves Matheson Glasgow marples stormont and some I can't make out


----------



## yetloh (19 Sep 2021)

Agree Ward and Ibbotson. Also Herring but, really, almost anything marked Cast Steel, Sheffield, is likely to be good.

Jim


----------



## Richie555 (19 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> You have some top brand names here, my friend.



Thank you, I`ve done a little minor work with the Sorby but I`m really going to be using them in anger on my next project in a fortnight.


----------



## Richie555 (19 Sep 2021)

D_W said:


> I've got a Nurse plane and a large Nurse paring chisel. I believe there may have been more than one of them (sorry if I don't actually know that much about the different makers - I just like the tools and not much of a retro reader). But I think I may have one marked I.Nurse and one C.Nurse. Too lazy to go dig in the piles and see if I can find both.
> 
> I think they were sellers of tools, not sure they were actually makers. I've seen Nurse on saws, too.



I thought I`d do a little research on your behalf.

Charles Nurse Catalogue 1902 (taths.org.uk) 

C. Nurse & Co – The Coopers' Tool Museum (cooperstoolmuseum.com) 

I can`t find out too much but they seemed to be based in London.


----------



## toolsntat (19 Sep 2021)

Might I present a gratuitous gouge drive by.....
Very recent purchase so no feedback but I believe this lot (top row) was originally bought all at once. Notice the not so popular ones being old style bolsters and the smallest ones substituted with Stormonts.
Cheers Andy


----------



## workshopted (20 Sep 2021)

toolsntat said:


> Might I present a gratuitous gouge drive by.....
> Very recent purchase so no feedback but I believe this lot (top row) was originally bought all at once. Notice the not so popular ones being old style bolsters and the smallest ones substituted with Stormonts.
> Cheers Andy View attachment 118153


'Gratuitous gouge drive by' - hahahahaha!


----------



## Richie555 (20 Sep 2021)

toolsntat said:


> Might I present a gratuitous gouge drive by.....
> Very recent purchase so no feedback but I believe this lot (top row) was originally bought all at once. Notice the not so popular ones being old style bolsters and the smallest ones substituted with Stormonts.
> Cheers Andy View attachment 118153


Wow, that's quiet a collection.


----------



## Richie555 (20 Sep 2021)

I've picked up another chisel today for £1. It's a Robert Sorby and I think it's a paring chisel, approx 1/4".
It needs quite a bit of work but I'm looking forward to tackling it.


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## Gavlar (22 Sep 2021)

I acquired a bunch of assorted chisels in an auction lot this week, for 7 quid all up. Readable brands are Ward, Stormont, Robert Sorby and something that could be Grades or Brades (ideas welcome). All the handles are in a shocking state though so I have some work to do. 

My favourite one though is this, from I. Sorby (just about legible).






The iron is 1.7/16" wide and it has a 6" handle. It's really heavy for its size. I wonder about the original length and why on earth it's been butchered into a...well I don't know what, but it's still sharp. The handle has seen better days too, but still has a nice polish to it. Should I try to re-grind into a usable chisel or leave it?


----------



## Orraloon (23 Sep 2021)

It looks like its been reshaped for a turners scraper. I would like a bit more handle on it before taking it to the lathe however.
I dont think there would be much left if you reground it back to a bench chisel.
Regards
John


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## TRITON (23 Sep 2021)

I thought it was maybe to clean up coves. As a scraper type thing. Of course we'll never know for sure and could even have been for buttering the rolls for breakfast.


----------



## Gavlar (23 Sep 2021)

There's a lot of bevel for lathe use, but some sort of scraper seems reasonable. Either way, I'll keep it as it is, it's a lot of work to re-grind it, and as you say John not much left afterwards! It's a good age, just think of the hands it's been through in a century and a half (ish).


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## workshopted (24 Sep 2021)

Gavlar said:


> I acquired a bunch of assorted chisels in an auction lot this week, for 7 quid all up. Readable brands are Ward, Stormont, Robert Sorby and something that could be Grades or Brades (ideas welcome). All the handles are in a shocking state though so I have some work to do.
> 
> My favourite one though is this, from I. Sorby (just about legible).View attachment 118367
> View attachment 118368
> ...


I have a patternmakers tool chest that came to me with the original tools and one of the chisels looks similar to yours. I wonder if your chisel came from a patternmaker.


----------



## workshopted (24 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> I have a patternmakers tool chest that came to me with the original tools and one of the chisels looks similar to yours. I wonder if your chisel came from a patternmaker.
> 
> View attachment 118477


----------



## workshopted (24 Sep 2021)

As you can see the tool came from a good place.


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## dannyr (24 Sep 2021)

They would make nice sturdy scrapers for finishing a fillet on a pattern?


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## thetyreman (24 Sep 2021)

what did the pattern makers use the rounded edge chisels for? intriguing.


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## Adam W. (25 Sep 2021)

One is quite happy with todays purchase....













Been looking for one of these for a while, and as it's an I. Sorby I'm exceptionally happy.


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## rob1693 (25 Sep 2021)

Strange geometry and looks very difficult to sharpen what's it for Adam


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## Adam W. (25 Sep 2021)

It's a sash scribing gouge for scribing the moulded parts of window sashes.

Very old school and went out of use quite a while ago.



http://www.hackneytools.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Specialist%20Tools%20for%20Sash%20Window%20Making%20-%20web%20version.pdf


----------



## cowtown_eric (26 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> As you can see the tool came from a good place.
> View attachment 118478


beautiful!

The outside was plebian so as not to attract attention.


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## workshopted (26 Sep 2021)

cowtown_eric said:


> beautiful!
> 
> The outside was plebian so as not to attract attention.


There would have been no point in the outside of the chest being decorative.


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## Adam W. (26 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> There would have been no point in the outside of the chest being decorative.


You're going to have to stop showing pictures of that chest, as I keep eyeing up a piece of boxwood and a new Skelton handsaw to cut the veneer.

I'm on the waiting list already because of you.


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## Jacob (26 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> It's a sash scribing gouge for scribing the moulded parts of window sashes.


How was it used?


> Very old school and went out of use quite a while ago.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.hackneytools.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Specialist%20Tools%20for%20Sash%20Window%20Making%20-%20web%20version.pdf


Interesting link. Have a feeling that very specialised tools were not that commonly used, firstly because there's not many of them about but mainly because the work can be done without them, and probably was, by and large. Semi specialised tools - varieties of moulding plane are very common and rebate planes probably most common of all old woodies still kicking around.


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## Adam W. (26 Sep 2021)

You're probably right.

There's loads of theories thought up by quasi academic types, who have never held a hand tool, let alone used one on any live project.

Take the sash scribing plane in that article. It's a git to use unless you rack up a good quantity of bars in a clamp and do them all at once before they are moulded. If you don't do that the moulding gets trashed, no matter how sharp it is.

How was the scribing gouge I have used ? I don't know.

What's the purpose of the wooden sheath ? It might be a depth stop that gets shortened as the gouge wears, but I don't know that either.

The best way to find out is by getting hold of the tools and putting them to use.


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## workshopted (27 Sep 2021)

Let's turn the light on.


----------



## workshopted (27 Sep 2021)




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## workshopted (27 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> You're going to have to stop showing pictures of that chest, as I keep eyeing up a piece of boxwood and a new Skelton handsaw to cut the veneer.
> 
> I'm on the waiting list already because of you.


Shane will be very pleased, Adam... Grin!


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## workshopted (27 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> You're probably right.
> 
> There's loads of theories thought up by quasi academic types, who have never held a hand tool, let alone used one on any live project.
> 
> ...


----------



## dannyr (27 Sep 2021)

Here's another - also a couple of scrapers/chisels poss patternmaker style ... both to continue themes as above.

The round ended bevel chisels were from a flea market stall where the only other chisels were a couple of long cranked gouges as used by patternmakers, but the stall owner knew nothing of their history. Anyone out there used this type of 'mystery chisel' and what for (apart from opening tins and mixing paint)?


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> Let's turn the light on.


Yes but
_The most complicated work in making the sash
box is cutting out the sash pocket in the pulley
stiles, through which the weights are reached. It is
necessary to make both transverse and
longitudinal cuts in a position that cannot be
reached with general tools. A special chisel – the
sash pocket chisel – was developed for this job,
though the exact way it was intended to be used is
still a matter of speculation._
She's wrong about the most common method being complicated - it's easy I've done hundreds - and she says the use of the sash "pocket" chisel is a matter of speculation - in other words she doesn't know. Best explanation was JobandKnock's I thought Best vintage Chisels

Looking at the mystery scribing chisels above, I winder if they were designed to slide in one of the various other accessories, "sticking boards" or some sort of guide of its own? It'd account for the very precise and consistent shape of the handle - it looks designed to fit something.


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## Adam W. (27 Sep 2021)

Hmm, yes.

More research is definitely required on this subject.


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## workshopted (28 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Yes but
> _The most complicated work in making the sash
> box is cutting out the sash pocket in the pulley
> stiles, through which the weights are reached. It is
> ...


A few years my pal Richard Arnold made a short video of a sash scribing gouge in action. Take a look on his Instagram page.


----------



## workshopted (28 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Hmm, yes.
> 
> More research is definitely required on this subject.


A few years my pal Richard Arnold made a short video of a sash scribing gouge in action. Take a look on his Instagram page.


----------



## Jacob (28 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> A few years my pal Richard Arnold made a short video of a sash scribing gouge in action. Take a look on his Instagram page.



Right! Seems to be the answer. Had to watch it a couple of times to see what he was doing. The woodwork behind the blade stops it going through and breaking out so you have to cut it from both sides for a clean cut.
Thanks for that.
PS come to think - I don't see that you'd need that mitre and paring at the start, a sharp whack on the chisel would drive it half way ?


----------



## dannyr (28 Sep 2021)

Let's keep em coming.

Anyone else see or use this little extra angled bevel --- both these are more or less as found (ages ago), both very solid old chisels, not just firmer, maybe would be framers or marine, one Ward and Payne, one Henry Taylor, and I saw a similar bevel in a page of an old catalogue of Marples? From pre WWI?

Is it just deco like the saw nib, or does it have some use eg to let the chisel cut a tiny bit further into a corner or if ground on, maybe there's a tiny bit less hand sharpening?

And the third chisel, Ward, is what I think might have been the first type of forged bolster for registered chisels.

I've got many more to ask about and one further question -- exactly how sad is it to own so many chisels (don't ask) when I only use about 3 or 4 most of the time?


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## D_W (28 Sep 2021)

I have a butcher chisel that's set up exactly like that (wheel ground or stoned in a triangle like that- slightly longer triangle, but no longer than it would need to be to pare into corners. 

Some of the seaton chisels have bevel modification that looks highly user-done compared to the very neat file work that's up on the tang and bolster from the makers. 

One of the biggest nonsense things around is $100 dovetail chisels when you can literally lay any unloved firmer chisel against a grinder wheel or belt and make it a "Dovetail" chisel. 

At one point in the past, I had a set of americanized japanese "dovetail chisels", too. They are the result of the beginner's market wanting something specific and the sellers are left to either tell people that they don't make sense or just make what they want (I remember a pretty pointed statement from leonard lee at one point talking about customers saying they're measuring this or that to be a thou out of flat or some such things and eventually you just give in and make things the way people say they want them). 

If I had the stomach to try to charge people $100 for simple chisels, I could make a living making all of these little specialty chisels.


----------



## D_W (28 Sep 2021)

OPTIMA Dovetail Chisel - 1-1/2 (1.500) 38.1mm


The unique blade shape of Blue Spruce Toolworks Optima Dovetail Chisels makes them perfect for light chopping, paring and precision fitting of your finest joinery. The 4" long, 1/8" thin blade is sized just right for close-up, intimate work, allowing clear visibility of your material. The unique...




bluesprucetoolworks.com





hamburger at surf and turf price. 

I don't think I'd have much luck convincing most beginners that an old I.Sorby or Ward chisel with an integral bolster is better than an over polished thing with a piece of thin flat stock (in an alloy that doesn't make a very good chisel, but is convenient for the manufacturer) stuffed in a handle with an old ferrule to hide the joint. 

As long as a clean ward is less than a "blue spruce" chisel, the world is upside down.


----------



## workshopted (28 Sep 2021)

All this and we haven't even started to talk about the blunt chisel and the technique of using it.


----------



## D_W (28 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> All this and we haven't even started to talk about the blunt chisel and the technique of using it.




A very good option when something is too hard to pare accurately. Great for plane beds and adjusting anything end grain, even back into the grain (sometimes difficult to pare). 

Doesn't require a good chisel, either - just a chisel. I didn't watch the video as I scabbed this off of a CD of photos that Bill and his Mrs. used to sell (a lovely thing for them to do - sharing things they didn't really need to share), but even better is the technique if a chisel is rehardened and left basically untempered. It'll hold the corner a little better and grind crisply. Even relatively junky chisels will be bullet hard without tempering.


----------



## workshopted (28 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Hmm, yes.
> 
> More research is definitely required on this subject.


Hi, Adam, I've just trolled you on Instagram. I've never even heard of Hookes' Hyperbolic Cosine Catenary. before... thanks for the education.


----------



## D_W (28 Sep 2021)

I should say, the idea of leaving the chisel untempered also came from bill - I didn't modify what he suggested. A bigger chisel with a radius and long handle can be used to do fairly significant endgrain material removal like this and if you have a machine grinder, it can be refreshed in a matter of 20 seconds. The radius allows you to pick and choose bias to cut middle, left or right to get up against corners. 

It's so dandy it's bonkers, and I never would've guessed it - leaving steel untempered is generally bad policy, but it's great policy in this case - no wire edge, just a crisp aggressive corner).


----------



## workshopted (28 Sep 2021)

D_W said:


> A very good option when something is too hard to pare accurately. Great for plane beds and adjusting anything end grain, even back into the grain (sometimes difficult to pare).
> 
> Doesn't require a good chisel, either - just a chisel. I didn't watch the video as I scabbed this off of a CD of photos that Bill and his Mrs. used to sell (a lovely thing for them to do - sharing things they didn't really need to share), but even better is the technique if a chisel is rehardened and left basically untempered. It'll hold the corner a little better and grind crisply. Even relatively junky chisels will be bullet hard without tempering.


A couple of summers ago Bil n Sarah came down to Bristol to see a patternmakers tool chest of mine, and I found them to be two of the nicest people one could care to meet.
Bill brought a collection of his hand made mitre planes, and Sarah brought a collection of her hand made cakes. I've loved them both from that day to this.


----------



## toolsntat (28 Sep 2021)

Knew I had a surplus sash pocket chisel hiding somewhere.....


----------



## Jacob (28 Sep 2021)

toolsntat said:


> Knew I had a surplus sash pocket chisel hiding somewhere.....
> 
> View attachment 118729
> 
> ...


Yes but can you cut a sash pocket out with it or is it just for removing existing ones painted in?


----------



## workshopted (29 Sep 2021)

toolsntat said:


> Knew I had a surplus sash pocket chisel hiding somewhere.....
> 
> View attachment 118729
> 
> ...


Pre-owned, Andy?


----------



## Orraloon (29 Sep 2021)

Looks like it spent it's later life as a putty knife.
Regards
John


----------



## Adam W. (29 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> Hi, Adam, I've just trolled you on Instagram. I've never even heard of Hookes' Hyperbolic Cosine Catenary. before... thanks for the education.


Actually it's a bit of rope hanging between two nails, but don't tell anybody that.

There's more anorack vaulting theory to come, complete with lots of nerding out with circular work when I get the timber out.


----------



## workshopted (29 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Actually it's a bit of rope hanging between two nails, but don't tell anybody that.
> 
> There's more anorack vaulting theory to come, complete with lots of nerding out with circular work when I get the timber out.


But it's special rope and magic nails.


----------



## Jacob (29 Sep 2021)

String has been top tool for straight lines or layout of circles, complex curves, from the stone age (we guess) right up to aircraft engineering, ship building and steel fabrication lay-out, until very recently. Chalk string even better as it makes its own marks.
Marvellous stuff!


----------



## workshopted (29 Sep 2021)

The jury is still out on this little S.J. Addis Junior chisel of mine; some say it's a drawer lock chisel and some say that it's owner adapted.


----------



## Richie555 (29 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> The jury is still out on this little S.J. Addis Junior chisel of mine; some say it's a drawer lock chisel and some say that it's owner adapted.
> View attachment 118770



I`m as far from an expert in these things as its possible to get but looking at the curved makers mark I would say owner adapted. My real question is how the f*** do you use the thing. Apologies in advance to anyone offended by my colourful language.


----------



## D_W (29 Sep 2021)

Richie555 said:


> I`m as far from an expert in these things as its possible to get but looking at the curved makers mark I would say owner adapted. My real question is how the f*** do you you the thing. Apologies in advance to anyone offended by my colourful language.



Same - I can't imagine the maker would mark the curve. 

Nobody with a beat up anvil with yucky corners would've been able to complete the shaping of that chisel as nicely , though, and it's possible that the factory would've made that type that way - make the straight chisel first, then heat and hammer to final shape (though I think they'd have been too proud to allow the stamp to get stretched like that). 

We're all guessing until a former addis factory smith pops out of the ground and tells us what's up.


----------



## toolsntat (29 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> Pre-owned, Andy?


Somewhat...
And now dispatched to start a new life £££
Cheers Andy


----------



## workshopted (30 Sep 2021)

I believe these two ultra thin mortice chisels were made out of industrial bandsaw blades but I could be wrong.


----------



## workshopted (30 Sep 2021)

I believe these two ultra thin mortice chisels were made out of industrial bandsaw blades but I could be wrong.


----------



## Jacob (30 Sep 2021)

workshopted said:


> I believe these two ultra thin mortice chisels were made out of industrial bandsaw blades but I could be wrong.
> View attachment 118842


Interesting. Would they work as mortice chisels - without a bolster and all that bashing?
Thin ones down to 1/8" seem quite common but do have a bolster just like their big brothers.


----------



## workshopted (30 Sep 2021)

I bought these mortice chisels a few years ago mainly because I loved the user made handles (I'm a sucker for user made/adapted things. Marples and Brades. You did a fine job Mr. Butler.


----------



## workshopted (30 Sep 2021)

toolsntat said:


> Somewhat...
> And now dispatched to start a new life £££
> Cheers Andy


Well done Andy, that'll give you a few bob to spend at today's David Stanley auction.


----------



## workshopted (30 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Interesting. Would they work as mortice chisels - without a bolster and all that bashing?
> Thin ones down to 1/8" seem quite common but do have a bolster just like their big brothers.


Hi, Jacob, I've never tried using them so your guess is as good as mine on that one.


----------



## Just4Fun (30 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Interesting. Would they work as mortice chisels - without a bolster and all that bashing?


And if they did work, would the resulting joint work or would the tenon snap off at the least bit of pressure?


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## Jacob (30 Sep 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> And if they did work, would the resulting joint work or would the tenon snap off at the least bit of pressure?


Not for M&Ts. Thin slots, either to accommodate metal work when many things were made of wood/metal combined, or thin slots to get a hole saw started perhaps - cutting a letter box hole?
They do cut a slot quite quickly, along the grain. I've tried it (1/8" chisel) but not for any useful purpose yet! You have to work it from marks on both sides and aim as best you can to get the slots to meet halfway, which isn't that difficult if you line it up by sighting from the end of the slot, down the grain.


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## dannyr (30 Sep 2021)

I had a couple of mortice chisels with trad 'pigstick' handles that were definitely made (not by me) from old industrial hack saw blades - a little thicker than yours Ted, but not much. They had wedged on bolsters.



So.... next subject ..... what the heck are these chisels .... First saw mention in Salaman's respected Dict of ww tools 






Then in French and German catalogues from 20s and 50s









Salaman seems uncharacteristically vague about these, talking about their use for morticing in hidden hinges either all steel as shown or wood handle. The French cata has them as bedanes, which usually means mortice chisel, the German as plugging chisels and there's even a 2021 French catalogue with something v similar for fitting sockets.

Anyone help with more knowledge?


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## dannyr (30 Sep 2021)

And then I find this (sold in uk),,, obviously from the same family of chisels(?), but for the life of me can't see how it might work, especially with that wrong way outside taper.







BTW the points and the 'shovel' are sharp. Looks like it's never been used.

(when I first acquired it I thought it might just be a part of a machine morticer or a turning tool , but I can't see that being the case)


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## D_W (30 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Interesting. Would they work as mortice chisels - without a bolster and all that bashing?
> Thin ones down to 1/8" seem quite common but do have a bolster just like their big brothers.



The length and shape of the handles suggests they were pushed or manipulated without striking. Not much force would be required to push them into a thin slot and lever material out at that width - they'd probably work quite well. 

No clue what one would use them for, though.


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## toolsntat (30 Sep 2021)

dannyr said:


> I had a couple of mortice chisels with trad 'pigstick' handles that were definitely made (not by me) from old industrial hack saw blades - a little thicker than yours Ted, but not much. They had wedged on bolsters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For cutting hinge mortices where the flap is concealed in the timber.
Cheers Andy


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## workshopted (1 Oct 2021)

dannyr said:


> I had a couple of mortice chisels with trad 'pigstick' handles that were definitely made (not by me) from old industrial hack saw blades - a little thicker than yours Ted, but not much. They had wedged on bolsters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi, Danny, I'm afraid you've got me on that one, my friend... Many thanks for these interesting images though.


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## workshopted (1 Oct 2021)

dannyr said:


> This was for sale locally last week - cost me all of 50p and both the seller and myself thought it was well worth it for the laugh.
> 
> But, more seriously , it was once a much loved Sheffield made chisel and the weird string repair obviously worked for a while as the piece of string over theView attachment 117577
> top has been beaten well into the wood. When I've finished rehandling and fettling it it will go on for another lifetime


Hi, Danny, would you mind if I download and use this pic of your chisel and use it on a Facebook group I'm in... it's to play a joke on a friend.


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## Jacob (1 Oct 2021)

toolsntat said:


> For cutting hinge mortices where the flap is concealed in the timber.
> Cheers Andy


But who does that and how, why, where? I've never seen it, (which doesn't mean it doesn't happen of course). And hinge flaps that thin?


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## dannyr (1 Oct 2021)

Just found another catalogue with these in (Austrian 1909) -- one (fischbandeisen) is shaped like the barbed Neptune's Triton spear (or an eel fishing spear) the other like a thin plugging chisel, both come in several widths and thicknesses from 1.25-3.25mm, so obviously a very specific slot. And the barbed one has a patent no of 82333 if anyone knows how to navigate old euro patents. I think the barbs are to help remove chips, but I remain really puzzled by the cutting edge being narrower than the 'shoulder' behind it (like mine) --obviously designed to be but can't visualise the action. 

The catalogue calls them both einlasseisen fur aufsatzbander , ie something like 'letting in iron for top seated bands'.

I think all the finely graduated sizes seem to confirm the 'slot for hidden hinge leaf' theory, as Salaman and Andy. 

Oh yes, Ted -- do use my pix as you choose. If the joke works, let us know.


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## workshopted (1 Oct 2021)

dannyr said:


> Just found another catalogue with these in (Austrian 1909) -- one (fischbandeisen) is shaped like the barbed Neptune's Triton spear (or an eel fishing spear) the other just like a thin plugging chisel, come in several thicknesses from 1.25-3.25mm, so obviously a very specific slot. And the barbed one has a patent no of 82333 if anyone knows how to navigate old euro patents. I think the barbs are to help remove chips, but I remain really puzzled by the cutting edge being narrower than the 'shoulder' behind it (like mine) --obviously designed to be but can't visualise the action.
> 
> The catalogue calls them both einlasseisen fur aufsatzbander , ie something like inlet iron for top seated band.
> 
> ...


Many thanks, Mr. Dan.


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## dannyr (1 Oct 2021)

workshopted said:


> Many thanks, Mr. Dan.


And when they've responded to that one, maybe you could ask them to show their collections of einlasseisen fur aufsatzbander epecially if it should include a fischbandeisen?


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## toolsntat (1 Oct 2021)

Jacob said:


> But who does that and how, why, where? I've never seen it, (which doesn't mean it doesn't happen of course). And hinge flaps that thin?


It's a continental thing.
Cheers Andy


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## Just4Fun (1 Oct 2021)

I haven't seen that and can't really visualise it. How are the hinges held in place? I assume they are not screwed if buried in the timber.


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## workshopted (1 Oct 2021)

dannyr said:


> And when they've responded to that one, maybe you could ask them to show their collections of einlasseisen fur aufsatzbander epecially if it should include a fischbandeisen?


I promise to try, Mr. Dan, but my French isn't very good.


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## workshopted (3 Oct 2021)

dannyr said:


> Just found another catalogue with these in (Austrian 1909) -- one (fischbandeisen) is shaped like the barbed Neptune's Triton spear (or an eel fishing spear) the other like a thin plugging chisel, both come in several widths and thicknesses from 1.25-3.25mm, so obviously a very specific slot. And the barbed one has a patent no of 82333 if anyone knows how to navigate old euro patents. I think the barbs are to help remove chips, but I remain really puzzled by the cutting edge being narrower than the 'shoulder' behind it (like mine) --obviously designed to be but can't visualise the action.
> 
> The catalogue calls them both einlasseisen fur aufsatzbander , ie something like 'letting in iron for top seated bands'.
> 
> ...


The post of your chisel on the Unplugged Woodworkers Facebook page generated a lot of fun, Danny. I started it off with... 
I've been wanting to post this for some time but I've had to until I knew that Jim Hendricks (the destroyer of 'handles with history') would be taking his mid-morning nap. The handle on this chisel shows one man's ingenuity, inventiveness, and the ability to think outside of the box, that's so admired by lovers of old tools, and as such, it deserves to be preserved in all its glory! 
All in favour say, Aye.
Signed Frugal Mcdougal' and it took off from there. Grin!








Unplugged Woodworkers | Facebook


What and who we are: Unplugged Woodworkers is a place to share techniques, projects, and interest in hand tools. We are a worldwide, family-friendly group of all races, genders, beliefs, and...




www.facebook.com


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## dannyr (3 Oct 2021)

workshopted said:


> The post of your chisel on the Unplugged Woodworkers Facebook page generated a lot of fun, Danny. I started it off with...
> I've been wanting to post this for some time but I've had to until I knew that Jim Hendricks (the destroyer of 'handles with history') would be taking his mid-morning nap. The handle on this chisel shows one man's ingenuity, inventiveness, and the ability to think outside of the box, that's so admired by lovers of old tools, and as such, it deserves to be preserved in all its glory!
> All in favour say, Aye.
> Signed Frugal Mcdougal' and it took off from there. Grin!
> ...



I have succumbed to public pressure and am preserving this chisel for posterity - may remove some surface rust, which is not too bad, and the edge, though rounded, is sharpish - it may have been aggravated by the flea market being outside on a wet day. What I like is that not only was the chisel repaired like this, but obviously used quite a bit with the repair. BTW it's a 1in firmer, that most fundamental of tools, stamped 'warranted cast steel', typical 1850's-1930's hand forged style, prob Sheffield, and the proud owner (handle stamped) was R LEE; probably not a member of your Facebook group, nor a Confederate general.


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## Jacob (3 Oct 2021)

dannyr said:


> ....the edge, though rounded, is sharpish - i...


Sorry to be pedantic but nothing wrong with "rounded"- it's traditional and can be as sharp as you want.
"Rounded over" i.e. edge angle too high, is the thing to avoid but rounded bevel with an edge angle of around 30º is fine and is what freehand sharpening gives you. It's normal.
Edge angle "too high" is ambiguous anyway - even 90º will work in certain circumstances.
Thanks for this link whoever posted it a few days ago!


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## workshopted (4 Oct 2021)

dannyr said:


> I have succumbed to public pressure and am preserving this chisel for posterity - may remove some surface rust, which is not too bad, and the edge, though rounded, is sharpish - it may have been aggravated by the flea market being outside on a wet day. What I like is that not only was the chisel repaired like this, but obviously used quite a bit with the repair. BTW it's a 1in firmer, that most fundamental of tools, stamped 'warranted cast steel', typical 1850's-1930's hand forged style, prob Sheffield, and the proud owner (handle stamped) was R LEE; probably not a member of your Facebook group, nor a Confederate general.


I'll run a check but I don't think we have any Confederate Generals.


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## peterw3035 (19 Mar 2022)

workshopted said:


> It's a sash scribing gouge for working the glazing bar joints...


That's interesting, I have one of these chisels belonged to my great grandfather. I've always wondered what is was for. Thks


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## dannyr (19 Mar 2022)

workshopted said:


> I believe these two ultra thin mortice chisels were made out of industrial bandsaw blades but I could be wrong.
> View attachment 118842


I have one similar (but the handle is just a micropigsticker style) definitely (well-)made of old machine hacksaw blade

I have actually found it quite useful on occasion, eg the wedge didn't fit well on an old woody plane and it cleaned the corner edge of the wedge groove better than alternatives.


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