# A very sensible sharpening system..



## D_W (24 Aug 2021)

..not what you think - it may not help much with woodworking. I've not heard of this guy before, but courtesy of youtube recommendations.

This guy runs a small part time business sharpening things and he uses nothing that costs much (the jet sharpeners are probably expensive now, but I've had two tormeks and am glad to see them gone - I do recall that the jets were inexpensive early on).

At any rate, what's impressive to me is that he uses concepts to set up his system and it would work with "gooder" stuff or not.

For example, I have beaten everyone over the head about using buffers. But one of the things you can do if you don't love a buffer is use felt at a lower speed, or use small diameter felt. This guy uses a makeshift drill setup for his regular sharpening gear cheaply doing an end-around over the speed problem for light bevel touch up on knives.



It will take some of you folks a little bit of restraint to not go into the BUT BUT BUT's of some of the things he's doing. This is kind of a lost art on youtube - a truly original video from a guy doing things making a video after he figured those things out, and not making a video with bits and bobs taken from somewhere else and then telling you that you're his friends and here's the links to buy things so he can get revenue.

Certainly not posted as the main point of his video (starting a business), more just a good reminder that you can think your way through whatever you're doing and often come up with a better solution than you could buy.


----------



## Jacob (24 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> ..... But one of the things you can do if you don't love a buffer is use felt at a lower speed, or use small diameter felt. .....


"Buffing" as in "stropping"?
I use an MDF disc on my lathe spindle outboard end. Slowest speed. Wipe over with Autosol or similar and spread thin with a palette knife. Instant shiny bevels on blades, chisels and gouges! Use edge of disc for inside the gouge.


----------



## Rorschach (24 Aug 2021)

Awesome video, I love guys like this, very much of my own mindset.


----------



## Awac (24 Aug 2021)

I have always wanted to try the Koch sharpening system. Expensive yes, (Jeez, I would hate to add up what I have spent collecting gouges over the years-don’t think about it) but I see many people just buy the wheels as they are supposed to be very good and use them on lathes etc.









Schleif- und Schärfgeräte


Kurt Koch hat die Schleif- und Schärftechnik revolutioniert - seither kann jeder in einem sehr einfachen technischen Vorgang Schärfen oder…




www.koch.de


----------



## D_W (24 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> "Buffing" as in "stropping"?
> I use an MDF disc on my lathe spindle outboard end. Slowest speed. Wipe over with Autosol or similar and spread thin with a palette knife. Instant shiny bevels on blades, chisels and gouges! Use edge of disc for inside the gouge.



The whole buffing thing is a bit specific (at least in how I use it), but I know a lot of knife folks use loaded wheels, carvers use buffs, etc. 

Leather, MDF, Etc - any of it can work - the speed just has to be a match. E.g., hard felt at 3600 RPM on a 6" wheel leads to hot tools and too much removed. Same with leather. 

Felt and leather at a lower speed work great (they're more like hones at that level, and lower speed - less heat - less unintentional heavy metal removal)


----------



## mikej460 (24 Aug 2021)

Great practical video, I would prefer to modify my grinder so anyone know of a low cost way to reduce the speed of the induction motor on my grinder?


----------



## D_W (24 Aug 2021)

I'm not aware of any other than using it to run another arbor with a pulley reduction (that'd be a bit power soaker). I think most grinders, etc, rely on speed to cool, but I could be wrong if they're enclosed.


----------



## TRITON (25 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> "Buffing" as in "stropping"?
> I use an MDF disc on my lathe spindle outboard end. Slowest speed. Wipe over with Autosol or similar and spread thin with a palette knife. Instant shiny bevels on blades, chisels and gouges! Use edge of disc for inside the gouge.


I did the same, mdf disc but contact adhesived a leather strip around the edge, half lapped the joint and have it wound so when turning the edge doesnt grab the join and strip it off.


----------



## D_W (25 Aug 2021)

I think one of the reasons that people don't share sensible stuff is the assumption that they may get shouted down for "such a stupid idea". 

I share stupid stuff all the time (like rounding over tips of tools with a buffer to make them last *longer*) - it's freeing to realize we're all pikers and it's OK to chance being told you're a boob.


----------



## JSW (25 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> This is kind of a lost art on youtube - a truly original video from a guy doing things making a video after he figured those things out, and not making a video with bits and bobs taken from somewhere else and then telling you that you're his friends and here's the links to buy things so he can get revenue.


He really is quite unique, reminds me a little of Matthias Wandels dad, that guy seemed to have his own spin on things as well, and . . . I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Amogla Camp


----------



## Orraloon (25 Aug 2021)

Well I learned a few things from that. Dulling the edge before you start was a totally new one. Taking the burr off the knife also different as most kitchen knife sharpeners are creating a burr. That said the way I was shown chisel sharpening on an oil stone (still use that) the burr is taken off at each stage so doing it with knives too makes sense. All up a good no nonsense video and I will have a look at some of his other stuff.
Regards
John


----------



## Just4Fun (25 Aug 2021)

Orraloon said:


> Well I learned a few things from that. Dulling the edge before you start was a totally new one.


Oh, I thought he only dulled the edge for demo purposes, so the viewer could not suspect that he was starting with a pre-sharpened blade. I didn't think he did that normally.


----------



## Rorschach (25 Aug 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> Oh, I thought he only dulled the edge for demo purposes, so the viewer could not suspect that he was starting with a pre-sharpened blade. I didn't think he did that normally.



Yeah I never purposely dull and edge unless there are chips I need to remove.


----------



## clogs (25 Aug 2021)

what a nice ol guy.....giving freely.....
does anyone remember the guy on a bike that traveled around sharpening knives etc....
(pedal powered stones)......
eventhe rag n bone man.....


----------



## Auldfart2010 (25 Aug 2021)

He talks about the wheel rotation going away from him at the top of the wheel. Every bench grinder I've used has the rotation coming over the top of the wheel towards me.


----------



## D_W (25 Aug 2021)

JSW said:


> He really is quite unique, reminds me a little of Matthias Wandels dad, that guy seemed to have his own spin on things as well, and . . . I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
> 
> Amogla Camp



Definitely reminds me of what Matthias talks about. Matthias is inclined beyond what his videos suggest (his work at what became blackberry - RIM? includes a combination of creativity and genius that most people aren't capable of), but in general what he shows reminds me of where I grew up (central PA - a very thrifty german area where people like to run small businesses or work for themselves and they aren't very inclined to spend money or be influenced by external pressures). 

The other thing that's common (nothing to do with matthias in this case), or was, was for someone to be a pretty strong hard worker and do something at below market cost and constantly be told by people moving into the area that they should charge more. 

I live in an area now where there were urban germans, and the sentiment is different. Not at the very least because few germans where I grew up drank any alcohol other than church wine (and definitely in a protestant church). But the social aspect and community is way different - community is strong in the rural areas, but independence of the individual was more valued. Sometimes the uniqueness and headstrong kind of way wasn't very pleasant, though!!


----------



## raffo (25 Aug 2021)

clogs said:


> what a nice ol guy.....giving freely.....
> does anyone remember the guy on a bike that traveled around sharpening knives etc....
> (pedal powered stones)......
> even the rag n bone man.....



I do, but in Perú. A pedal operated grinding stone. They would run around playing a small plastic Pan flute, a distinctive tune. When you heard it, you knew one of these guys was in the neighborhood.


----------



## D_W (25 Aug 2021)

in a much less practical way, any time I went to one of my mother's shows (she painted folk art stuff and sold it), there was often a guy in the back of a truck or on a trailer running a demo of a sandstone wheel. Sometimes the wheel was pedal powered and sometimes it was powered by a hit or miss engine, but I would be surprised of the demonstrator didn't sharpen several hundred knives in a day at a dollar each (this would've been about 35 years ago, so figure something like $500 to sit at a wheel and chew the fat with people). Never any follow up honing or burr removal, just a fine sandstone wheel back and forth and on to the next. 

I didn't actually know anyone in my youth who had their knives sharpened. Can openers back then came with a coarse wheel and that's all we ever had. There was nothing in the house that was actually sharp other than disposable razors and a tiny carving knife that my dad kept up on a strop as he'd learned (with the yellow compound) in a bird carving class. 

My parents are intelligent, but lazy thinkers in terms of something like that - nothing about sharpening a bird carving knife ever struck my dad as worth doing to other knives. When I discovered that he had a washita stone in his hunting kit (one that he described as too slow to do anything) we cleaned the surface off and sharpened a bunch of knives. My mother cut herself within an hour and I had to knock most of the sharpness off of them and that as the end of that. 

Part of that is pa german thrift (there's zero chance that they'd take 10 knives to some guy and give him $20).


----------



## Rorschach (25 Aug 2021)

D_W said:


> My mother cut herself within an hour.



That was my mother too when I first sharpened her knives. I don't go as sharp on hers as I do on my own but she can handle a sharp knife better now.
I have lots of knives and sharpen them in different ways according to how and what they are used for. My general purpose kitchen knives for instance get sharpened on an "Anysharp" followed by a steel to refine the edge and remove any burr. People may scoff but it gets a knive very sharp, very quickly and the coarse edge it gives is excellent for slicing meat. I find I actually prefer that type of edge for my boning knives, I tried sharpening them to a mirror like razor edge that would hang a hair no trouble, problem is it slips in the meat and doesn't bite and as soon as you nick a bone the edge is ruined, I'll take the anysharp edge any day for that task.


----------



## D_W (25 Aug 2021)

Larrin thomas here in the states actually quantified the coarse edge for slicing vs. pushing (everything we do in woodworking is generally push cut except maybe for some carving moves). Knives do best in terms of slicing durability at high hardness with an acute and *coarse* edge. Even something like a 150 grit sandpaper edge with the burr removed will slice longer than a perfect edge. The trick is, I guess, getting someone to understand how to remove the burr on a coarse edge as we do it as a matter of the honing routine. 

I tested coarse edges years ago in a plane iron durability test. 5 micron loose diamonds create an edge that only lasts about 65% of the footage planed vs. 1 micron, but on top of that, the experience planing is far more miserable (even the last 65% of the footage planed by the fine edge is brighter and better looking than it is with 5 micron diamonds). 

Fine oilstones last about 80-85% of what 1 micron diamonds will last in terms of edge life, but it's much more pleasant than the more coarse diamonds. 

Long story short, woodworkers may not believe that a coarse edge is better or lasts longer in meat slicing because they're thinking about meat slicing like planing wood, and cooks or chefs may think that a coarse edge always lasts longer for everything because they've not tried a fine edge in wood. 

A fine edge makes for a really attractive prepped vegetable, though.


----------



## raffo (25 Aug 2021)

Surprisingly, these guys are still around, braving the pandemic. 

We used to see a lot of roaming street vendors back in the day, plumbers (shouting their services), bakers (on a tricycle, honking a horn), milkmen (from a farm, not bottled; we used to buy two liters every morning), photographers in the parks (they'd take your picture and develop it on the spot, even use colored pencils to give your image some color). There were other street vendors, their wares from traditions as far back as colonial times from the 17th century.


----------



## D_W (25 Aug 2021)

Interestingly, in PA in the 80s, a lot of these guys were around (not the plumbers, but traveling picture folks, artists offering to draw a still of you while you wait). I haven't seen them in a long time, and not sure why. 

(I grew up in Gettysburg, a tourist town). 

Early in youtube, I saw an interesting setup in india or pakistan with a guy riding a bike and some provision to use it either riding or grinding. He could ride it to a spot, disengage the drive and engage the grinding wheel and then grind, and then ride away to greener pastures later. 

Milkmen left where I grew up around the 1960s or so. They would bring you processed milk, but if you had cows, they would also take pails from your doorstep (sort of an exchange). I'd guess labor costs and food storage standards eliminated those pails (They had a top on them - like this one - without the kitschy scene). 








Antique Milk Can Vintage Milk Jug Metal Milk Can With Painted - Etsy Singapore


This Outdoor Planters item by lloydstreasures has 59 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from United States. Listed on 25 Oct, 2022




www.etsy.com





At least the defacers don't just target hand saws. These things were relegated to stools outside the front door by the time I was a kid. I find the fact that some are listed for hundreds of dollars (just plain with fresh bright metallic paint) a little ridiculous as they're rusting away everywhere).


----------



## D_W (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Yeah I never purposely dull and edge unless there are chips I need to remove.



I think he may have, but there is a school of folks who like to try to sharpen burr free, and one of the methods for it is jointing an edge and working up to it without ever raising a burr. I don't really get it (it's just as easy to create a burr and then remove the damage from the burr with subsequent steps if a really fine edge is needed.


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> That was my mother too when I first sharpened her knives. I don't go as sharp on hers as I do on my own but she can handle a sharp knife better now.
> I have lots of knives and sharpen them in different ways according to how and what they are used for. My general purpose kitchen knives for instance get sharpened on an "Anysharp" followed by a steel to refine the edge and remove any burr. People may scoff but it gets a knive very sharp, very quickly and the coarse edge it gives is excellent for slicing meat. I find I actually prefer that type of edge for my boning knives, I tried sharpening them to a mirror like razor edge that would hang a hair no trouble, problem is it slips in the meat and doesn't bite and as soon as you nick a bone the edge is ruined, I'll take the anysharp edge any day for that task.


I've been sharpening the same kitchen knives for years just the same but without the Anysharp, just a steel.
At least one of them is 2nd generation possibly 3rd generation and were done with a only steel too. My steel is newish, the old one was worn smooth. Edge coarse enough for meat, fine enough for even the most fragile tomato!
No idea why knife sharpening seems to be an issue!
Serrated edge no prob. Had to laugh a bit back when someone was going on about the difficulty of serrated edges - buying diamond hones to fit the radius and similar nonsense. In fact it takes 2 or 3 sweeps with a steel, every now and then, for a lifetime of sharpness.


----------



## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> I've been sharpening the same kitchen knives for years just the same but without the Anysharp, just a steel.
> At least one of them is 2nd generation possibly 3rd generation and were done with a only steel too. My steel is newish, the old one was worn smooth. Serrated edge no prob.
> No idea why knife sharpening seems to be an issue!
> Had to laugh a bit back when someone was going on about the difficulty of serrated edges - buying diamond hones to fit the radius and similar nonsense. In fact it takes 2 or 3 sweeps with a steel every now and then, for a lifetime of sharpness.



A steel doesn't "sharpen" a knife though. No material is removed.


----------



## artie (26 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> In fact it takes 2 or 3 sweeps with a steel every now and then, for a lifetime of sharpness.


I have been under the impression that a steel does not sharpen but straightens out the fine edge of a blade and thereby makes it cut better.


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> A steel doesn't "sharpen" a knife though. No material is removed.


Have heard that said before and it is not true.
It does sharpen - my knives are sharp and have never been sharpened any other way.
No doubt a bit of metal is removed too - it shows on the blade. I guess the steel works up a bit of a wire edge which gets broken off microscopically. If I'm wrong then my knives will be sharp and last forever!


----------



## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

artie said:


> I have been under the impression that a steel does not sharpen but straightens out the fine edge of a blade and thereby makes it cut better.



You are correct. It's possible depending on the steel and on the material the knife is made from that it can sort of "cold forge" the edge to be thinner and therefore sharper, think of it like pressing out pastry with a rolling pin, but it shouldn't be removing metal, that's not it's purpose.


----------



## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Have heard that said before and it is not true.
> It does sharpen - my knives are sharp and have never been sharpened any other way.
> No doubt a bit of metal is removed too - it shows on the blade. I guess the steel works up a bit of a wire edge which gets broken off microscopically. If I'm wrong then my knives will be sharp and last forever!



Of course, Jacob would have to have a different opinion on this, contrary to pretty much everyone else


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Of course, Jacob would have to have a different opinion on this, contrary to pretty much everyone else


It's not an opinion it's a fact.
Maybe I have a magic sharpening abilities, but I doubt it, it's more likely that everybody else is wrong!


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> You are correct. It's possible depending on the steel and on the material the knife is made from that it can sort of "cold forge" the edge to be thinner and therefore sharper, think of it like pressing out pastry with a rolling pin, but it shouldn't be removing metal, that's not it's purpose.


This is called "over-thinking". You now have to think about the thin edge of rolled pastry and imagine a few bits becoming detached. They shouldn't be detaching but nobody has told them.


----------



## D_W (26 Aug 2021)

Calm down, kids. There are two types of steels, and then their relative hardness counts. Generally, what's sold to consumers is soft knives and a slotted steel - those do actually scrape metal off (and they leave a burr and ultimately an uneven edge). 

A really good quality steel that's older and very high carbon ( and high hardness) or a newer high hardness stainless can be polished like a butcher's steel. That's my preference. A good polished steel and good quality knives (the henckels international meet that standard, as do the german made ones - I can't see a quality difference in the spanish or the german knives) meet the standard of steelable but not junk. 

There's a trend toward lower carbon stainless steels that have some decent hardenability in terms of properties, but they are less hard and probably a little less wear resistant than the old henckels stuff and the newer Henckels international. 

Sooner or later, a knife used with a polish steel should go to the stones, but someone with willpower could steel a knife for years and ignore the fat apex that's forming. 

Slotted steels can keep up softer knives forever, but they will start to look ratty. the polished steels are sometimes referred to over here as "butchers" steels, as a lot of butcher work is still done with inexpensive knives but an expensive polished steel. I'm guessing that sooner or later, users of solid steels eat some metal, but I doubt it matters much (anything stainless will go through, anything not stainless - well, lots of people use cast iron pans, anyway).


----------



## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's not an opinion it's a fact.
> Maybe I have a magic sharpening abilities, but I doubt it, it's more likely that everybody else is wrong!



Sounds like you are using a rough steel as mentioned below. Not a proper steel in that sense. My steels are really quite smooth and certainly don't remove any metal.


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

More over thinking going on!
These knives here are Sabatier, stainless and non stainless, and a very old Sheffield stainless. All very sharp, very easily.


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Sounds like you are using a rough steel as mentioned below. Not a proper steel in that sense. My steels are really quite smooth and certainly don't remove any metal.


They are proper steels in the sense of sharpening. 
Sounds like you sort of proper steels don't work so well according to D_W : _steel a knife for years and ignore the fat apex that's forming._


----------



## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Oh well, seems I can get rid of all my stones then and just use a steel, guess it will work on a chisel too, if it's removing metal then it will keep a chisel and plane in good nick too. I assume therefore Jacob you never use a stone, and just steel your chisels and planes? Table saw blades too?


----------



## D_W (26 Aug 2021)

Sabatier advertises mid mid/high 50s hardness, which is probably in line with the (likely) 440C "ice hardened" friodur knives (I'm guessing friodur used 440c and cryo treated them in nitrogen or dry ice to improve hardness a little - i have their knives, but also a bunch of their stainless razors. The razors are OK, but they're lacking in hardness a little compared to a silver steel razor)

At any rate, the range sabatier quotes is ideal for steeling long term with a polished steel. Any harder than that and there will be chipping problems.


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> ....I assume therefore Jacob you never use a stone, and just steel your chisels and planes? Table saw blades too?


Don't be silly - but by all means have a go yourself, modern sharpening is all about making it difficult and technically "interesting"


----------



## D_W (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Oh well, seems I can get rid of all my stones then and just use a steel, guess it will work on a chisel too, if it's removing metal then it will keep a chisel and plane in good nick too. I assume therefore Jacob you never use a stone, and just steel your chisels and planes? Table saw blades too?



In the world of "we'll make anything for anyone now" ceramic rods shaped like steels and diamond electroplate "steels" exist. 

the only issue with a steel used with little stoning is if you or a spouse managed to nick edges. 

The other side of this discussion is that japanese knives (the inexpensive ones that are something like VG10 and about 61/62 hardness) will hold an edge better than a steeled edge about as often as a steeled knife would generally benefit from honing, and they're a lot lighter. 

the better vintage knives have a pretty thin grind. The henckels type with a full bolster top to bottom are very thick and heavy. They are good knives and probably hard to damage because of heft. 

(I only looked up the sabatier stats because thiers produced goods aren't as common in the states as solingen-made goods, or now solingen name but made somewhere else).


----------



## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Be wary of info on Sabatier, the name is not a trademark and can be stamped on any old rubbish.


----------



## D_W (26 Aug 2021)

Yes...well, our labeling requirements in the US are better. All of these knives are made by machines now, and have been for a long time with not too much hand time on them. I'm guessing they are die forged (they still say they're forged) and then machine ground, and the choice of steels has probably been changing partially to make them a little friendlier to unskilled steeling as well as to better stability in hardening and tempering.

At any rate, if they say they're made in thiers france, they should at least be in the ballpark with the "real ones". The listings that cost about $70 show a fairly narrow hardness range and appear to be legit.


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Be wary of info on Sabatier, the name is not a trademark and can be stamped on any old rubbish.


Oh no! Do you think I should throw them away?


----------



## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Oh no! Do you think I should throw them away?



You don't listen to anything I say anyway, so no definitely don't throw them away, that would be stupid.


----------



## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> You don't listen to anything I say anyway, so no definitely don't throw them away, that would be stupid.


OK. Would camellia oil help?


----------



## D_W (26 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK. Would camellia oil help?



no, just wrap them in a white flag.


----------



## Rorschach (27 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> OK. Would camellia oil help?



Isn't that for babies bums when they are sore?


----------



## pe2dave (27 Aug 2021)

Sharpened on a steel, if I run my fingers along the steel, there is steel 'dust' on my fingers.
To me, that is the steel removed from the knife.


----------



## Jacob (27 Aug 2021)

pe2dave said:


> Sharpened on a steel, if I run my fingers along the steel, there is steel 'dust' on my fingers.
> To me, that is the steel removed from the knife.


Yes but the enthusiasts will tell you it's the wrong sort of steel - that you need a smooth steel . 
They aren't very efficient and as D_W says they form a "fat apex"  , but this gives them the excuse to get out their stones and fiddle about with them as well.
If you just want to know how to sharpen something efficiently with as little fuss as possible, then sharpening enthusiasts are the wrong people to ask.


----------



## Rorschach (27 Aug 2021)

Yes if you want to do something the right way, ask Jacob


----------



## Jacob (27 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Yes if you want to do something the right way, ask Jacob


Just ask yourself how people used to do things before the sharpening crazies and gadget salesmen took over!


----------



## Rorschach (27 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Just ask yourself how people used to do things before the sharpening crazies and gadget salesmen took over!



Just ask yourself how people used to travel before the car salesmen and airplane salesmen took over.


----------



## Jacob (27 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Just ask yourself how people used to travel before the car salesmen and airplane salesmen took over.


 Yes the sharpening crazies have utterly transformed the world of sharpening - made it 1000s of times faster and sharpen things beyond your wildest dreams. I bet they could sharpen a blancmange!


----------



## D_W (27 Aug 2021)

The rest of the world wouldn't even eat blancmange.


----------



## --Tom-- (27 Aug 2021)

A smooth steel burnishes the edge, we do it with cabinet scrapers and don’t descend into this farce.
Butchers doing butchery often use a coarse steel as it’ll clean the edge of sinew that otherwise clings to the edge. If that coarse steel is harder than the knife steel it’s like a file- and we all know how files work don’t we….

Smooth steel - burnish, coarse steel - file, ceramic / diamond steel - stone.

We all accept that they have different uses in the workshop, let’s stop with the side swipes it’s tiresome


----------



## Limey Lurker (27 Aug 2021)

I have two steels: one is of round cross section, and is effectively a round single cut file with the grooves running parallel to the long axis; the other is of hexagonal cross section, with very precise arrises. When either is used to sharpen a knife, a flashlight photo will show minute pieces of metal dropping from the blade. Here is the first one, along with the knife which it has sharpened for about 100 years.


----------



## Rorschach (27 Aug 2021)

I wonder if what is being confused for metal being "cut" off is actually the edge being burnished so thin that a wire edge is falling off?


----------



## Jacob (27 Aug 2021)

Impressed by LL's knife! My oldest one has a wavy edge and will probably only last another 100 years.
If caught out without a steel of any sort you can sharpen one knife on the back of another. Very effective if the back of the knife still has newish sharp edges but will diminish as the edge is lost and rounded over.


----------



## Jacob (27 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I wonder if what is being confused for metal being "cut" off is actually the edge being burnished so thin that a wire edge is falling off?


I think you are confused because either way it's still "sharpening". I expect a blunt but "rough" steel would be doing both and all stages in between.


----------



## Limey Lurker (27 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I wonder if what is being confused for metal being "cut" off is actually the edge being burnished so thin that a wire edge is falling off?


I don't think so, because every stroke produces particles falling from each part of the blade as it is drawn over the steel, whereas a wire edge would no longer exist on the second stroke.


----------



## Rorschach (27 Aug 2021)

Limey Lurker said:


> I don't think so, because every stroke produces particles falling from each part of the blade as it is drawn over the steel, whereas a wire edge would no longer exist on the second stroke.



It would if a wire edge were constantly being formed.


----------



## Jonm (28 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Of course, Jacob would have to have a different opinion on this, contrary to pretty much everyone else


Is there a touch of “the pot calling the kettle black” here?


----------



## --Tom-- (28 Aug 2021)

Take your sharp kitchen knife out to the workshop and see if it will go through some offcuts, if it will it’s sharp


----------



## chaoticbob (29 Aug 2021)

Ooh, a sharpening thread! If you really want to learn the true secrets of master sharpeners you could do worse than look at this . If you can't spare 11 minutes to watch the whole video, fast forward to 6:00 when the most important things are revealed.


MikeJ460 - there's no straightforward way of slowing down a single phase induction motor as far as I know, but a while ago I bought a Clarke grinder with a 'normal' (~2850 rpm) wheel at one end and a 'poor man's Tormek' at the other. I ended up stripping off the speed reduction gearbox from the slow end, but I'm sure it's on the shelves somewhere - yours for the asking if it might help your project.

Bob


----------



## Jacob (29 Aug 2021)

--Tom-- said:


> Take your sharp kitchen knife out to the workshop and see if it will go through some offcuts, if it will it’s sharp



Take your sharp kitchen knife into the kitchen and see if it will go through a tomato, if it will it’s sharp enough.


----------



## Rorschach (29 Aug 2021)

Jonm said:


> Is there a touch of “the pot calling the kettle black” here?



On some subjects I have differing views but not that often, if my views generally align with a consensus on a subject and I can't add anything I tend not to to say anything. I agree far more often than I disagree or rather I don't differ enough to make what might be a useful contribution. I very rarely tell someone they are totally wrong on something, which is almost all Jacob ever does.


----------



## Jacob (29 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> On some subjects I have differing views but not that often, if my views generally align with a consensus on a subject and I can't add anything I tend not to to say anything. I agree far more often than I disagree or rather I don't differ enough to make what might be a useful contribution. I very rarely tell someone they are totally wrong on something, which is almost all Jacob ever does.


Nah I think you are wrong on that one.


----------



## Rorschach (29 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Nah I think you are wrong on that one.



See!  
At least you do have a pretty good sense of humour sometimes though, unlike certain members.


----------



## clogs (29 Aug 2021)

reading this thread it reminded me of my mum sharpening a carving knife on the front step of our old Victorion house in N. London....
I still have it somewhere...the knife.....very hollow grind in the middle...
I think the step was limestone and once a week she would AJAX the step to keep it white.....
For those in foreign parts, Ajax was a scouring powder.....it was also used to remove Vitreouse enamal from iron baths.. as well as dirt...hahaha.....
the good old days......how many on here can remember stuff like that.....?


----------



## Adam W. (29 Aug 2021)

We was posh and employed the knife sharpener who regularly came round on his push iron.


----------



## Jacob (29 Aug 2021)

When ar worra lad we didn't have knives we broke food up by bashing it with sticks and jumping on it.


----------



## clogs (29 Aug 2021)

Adam W....
glad u woz posh.....the only thing that came round our way was the rag n bone man
and those doing a flit with a hand cart.....hahaha...
Chaotic Bob,
thanks for the link....always respected the Japanese knife and tool makers somehow.....
I did notice the UK style ball pein hammer and never seen an open file like that used for roughing out the ally blank.....I guess the diamond abra file is here already.....?
How do u find stuff like that on the web.....
must try harder.....ta...


----------



## Just4Fun (29 Aug 2021)

clogs said:


> reading this thread it reminded me of my mum sharpening a carving knife on the front step of our old Victorion house in N. London....


I have heard of that but never seen it. I did see, in a "museum house", a stone mantlepiece above the living room fireplace that had a 1 inch hollow worn in it, which was said to be from sharpening kitchen knives over many years.


----------



## Limey Lurker (29 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> It would if a wire edge were constantly being formed.


You mean, that as the wire edge was removed, a new wire edge would be formed? But what if you were to remove the wire edge with something that is incapable of forming a wire edge, such as a piece of plastic, or oak? I don't think that you've thought this through.


----------



## Rorschach (29 Aug 2021)

Limey Lurker said:


> You mean, that as the wire edge was removed, a new wire edge would be formed? But what if you were to remove the wire edge with something that is incapable of forming a wire edge, such as a piece of plastic, or oak? I don't think that you've thought this through.



If you are burnishing a softer steel with a very hard steel you could keep creating a wire edge.


----------



## D_W (29 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> If you are burnishing a softer steel with a very hard steel you could keep creating a wire edge.



This would be drawing. If the steel is soft enough, you could keep drawing the edge since you can work both sides. but the serrated steels just peel it right off, so it's not a big deal.


----------



## stuart little (30 Aug 2021)

clogs said:


> reading this thread it reminded me of my mum sharpening a carving knife on the front step of our old Victorion house in N. London....
> I still have it somewhere...the knife.....very hollow grind in the middle...
> I think the step was limestone and once a week she would AJAX the step to keep it white.....
> For those in foreign parts, Ajax was a scouring powder.....it was also used to remove Vitreouse enamal from iron baths.. as well as dirt...hahaha.....
> the good old days......how many on here can remember stuff like that.....?


Me, for one.


----------



## Limey Lurker (30 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> If you are burnishing a softer steel with a very hard steel you could keep creating a wire edge.


So a harder burnisher moving along an edge in order to remove a wire edge, would, immediately the wire edge is removed, and using the exact same contact patch, form another wire edge? Why, in the name of sanity, would anyone do this, if the only possible outcome would be to end up with a wire edge?


----------



## Jacob (30 Aug 2021)

Limey Lurker said:


> So a harder burnisher moving along an edge in order to remove a wire edge, would, immediately the wire edge is removed, and using the exact same contact patch, form another wire edge? Why, in the name of sanity, would anyone do this, if the only possible outcome would be to end up with a wire edge?


Good question!  
Careful - this way madness lies.
I'm sure a sharpening enthusiast will be along shortly with an incomprehensible answer.


----------



## D_W (30 Aug 2021)

clogs said:


> reading this thread it reminded me of my mum sharpening a carving knife on the front step of our old Victorion house in N. London....
> I still have it somewhere...the knife.....very hollow grind in the middle...
> I think the step was limestone and once a week she would AJAX the step to keep it white.....
> For those in foreign parts, Ajax was a scouring powder.....it was also used to remove Vitreouse enamal from iron baths.. as well as dirt...hahaha.....
> the good old days......how many on here can remember stuff like that.....?



Still use ajax on the porcelain tub here. Didn't know if it was maybe an american brand. 

A red brick makes a decent knife sharpener in a pinch, but it'll leave a lot of coarse stray scratches.


----------



## Tony Zaffuto (30 Aug 2021)

Unglazed portion of a ceramic cup (turned upside down) also works.


----------



## D_W (30 Aug 2021)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> Unglazed portion of a ceramic cup (turned upside down) also works.



Don't tell the people at my office to turn the cups over to look....they'll probably think they just have some strange dirt on them. Anything that looks like glass or hardened steel with a polish is fine as a polished steel, and unglazed ceramic is pretty much a less precise spyderco medium (they do seem to vary a lot).


----------

