# Electric vehicles - again



## Ozi (7 Jan 2022)

I'm going to stick my head over the parapet one more time. 



Is the World Ready for Tiny EVs?



Step by step these get more practical, 80 mph and 100 mile range single seat transport on a motorbike license with some of the creature comforts of a car, charges from a 13amp socket. If solid state batteries come along we are getting close to the point where if you need to charge up it will take less time than filling a petrol tank, although not at 13amps. Only 60 sold so far but give them some incentives like free parking at the station car park, zero congestion charge etc. Tax transport by weight (damage to roads), give employers tax breaks if employees can charge at work and who knows. For those like me who commute <20miles each way and have a driveway, charge 3 times a week on cheep rate power. Not for everybody I realize but this and a small family car with the option to hire a hydrogen powered van when I need one and I might never buy petrol again.


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## heimlaga (8 Jan 2022)

The problem is still that the lifespan of all car batteries is very short. Around 6 years they say.
A car that is affordable for an ordinary worker is normally quite a bit older than that. New batteries are generally nor affordable.
This means that a commoner's electric car will be powered by a Perkins P4.212 out of a scrapped combine harvester mounted onto a purpose built trailer with it's adjoining home built generator feeding the towing car with electricity through a cable.
Electric cars are uncomplicated and don't emit carbon dioxide...... so they say.

This super lightweight car has the adwantage that is can be powered by a Perkins P4.107 which uses a good bit less fuel than the larger P4.212. The rest is the same.


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## GweithdyDU (8 Jan 2022)

heimlaga said:


> The problem is still that the lifespan of all car batteries is very short. Around 6 years they say.
> A car that is affordable for an ordinary worker is normally quite a bit older than that. New batteries are generally nor affordable.
> This means that a commoner's electric car will be powered by a Perkins P4.212 out of a scrapped combine harvester mounted onto a purpose built trailer with it's adjoining home built generator feeding the towing car with electricity through a cable.
> Electric cars are uncomplicated and don't emit carbon dioxide...... so they say.
> ...


Well laugh! That is such a comical, and likely prophetic image and had me guffawing for ages.

Not only that, but we'll be running said Perkins on recycled/re-purposed animal fat!!

I'm not anti-change, it has to happen and happen soon but the point is well made. I fear that 'the system' is slowly but surely binding me and us all to it more and more as tech moves on. I'm not even anti-system and am a proud public-sector worker and volunteer but I want the ability to not have to be rich, or even well-off, to survive. I can currently run my 300-pound small car that runs on LPG (low-carbon and great MPG) and emits less carbon than a brand-new petrol car, but just don't see how that kind of motoring will survive in the 'battery-age'. I don't have the kind of regular income that could commit to a 'plan' or 'agreement' for batteries and live in a rural area so I'll be stuffed. Something will happen hopefully!


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## heimlaga (8 Jan 2022)

For running on animal fat I rekon a hot bulb engine will be more appropriate. The problem being that hot bulb engines and spare parts for them are in short supply theese days and that unlike the aforementioned Perkins diesels few hot bulb engines have reliable governors.

Woodgas would be another option. A modern downdraft wood gasifyer can be home built and the common VolvoB20 engine has been proven to run well on woodgas though at only about half it's rated horsepowers. Unfortunately this motor also lacks a governor. Another problem being that motorways must be equipped with a standstill lane where electic cars can stop any time to clear out blockages and rake out ash from the wood gasifiers that feed the combustion engines that power the generators that feed the electric motors.


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## Doris (8 Jan 2022)

heimlaga said:


> The problem is still that the lifespan of all car batteries is very short. Around 6 years they say.



My Toyota hybrid is 6 years old and the batteries are still going strong according to my mechanic


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## Cabinetman (8 Jan 2022)

We seem to be going round in circles here, this one has a roof as well as two! seats.


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## chris.s (9 Jan 2022)

$18,500*

I like it but a bit pricy as a cheapskate I'm on the list for first go with the Citroën Ami, as a quadracycle limited performance and range but it will tow easily behind my dirty diesel Rapido MH and save on having to purchase an invalid buggy in the coming years.



.


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## Geoff_S (9 Jan 2022)

Doris said:


> My Toyota hybrid is 6 years old and the batteries are still going strong according to my mechanic


New batteries then, according to the "they sayers".


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## Ozi (9 Jan 2022)

This area of engineering is developing faster than people realize, six year battery life was a thing, currently we are looking at ten and that's not the end of the battery they can be reconditioned and or repurposed. Most of us on this site will remember the first cordless screwdrivers, personally I rated them as utterly pointless now I think my Makita is probably my most used tool. The Citroen above has a top speed around 30 mph, good luck on the duel carriageway the Solo (Electramachanica - two vehicles with the same name) tops out at 80 mph with a max range of 100 miles. That's 18 months later. The costs are dropping as volumes improve. IF and it's far from a done deal solid state batteries make it to production we will be looking at double the energy density and true rapid charging. At that point fit this with two batteries and you would be able to carry them indoors to charge - good buy to much of the infrastructure issues if you had the option to charge at a station in similar time to filling with petrol or at home overnight, even keep one set on charge and swap as needed.

Electric vehicles will not do everything but for years we have run both petrol and diesel without people saying petrol's rubbish it's no good for lorries. Volvo published a paper recently that attracted huge criticism from people who missed the point comparing the full life emissions of petrol, hybrid and full electric cars. 70,000 km to brake even on CO2! NOT because the car has an intrinsic problem. Their point was we in the automotive industry cannot solve this problem alone. They were using European average electricity generation. Poland and Germany still burn huge amounts of coal, smelt the aluminum with hydro, generate the power to charge the car in the UK or better still France and you can halve that figure.

The Toyota mentioned above is a self charging hybrid with a 177 volt battery charged from the engine and by recovering braking energy, it's batteries last so well because the management system looks after them, charges them at the correct time and rate, they will probably out last the car. By charging from the engine you can keep the engine running at it's most efficient power output for more of the time which more than makes up for the inefficiency of charging then discharging. The battery is small enough to fit under the back seat. As soon as we get to the point where small vehicles like the solo can run on a pare of batteries that weigh the same each as a bag of shopping smart charging becomes a possibility for fully electric vehicles and on one will be talking about battery life.


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## chris.s (9 Jan 2022)

Agree with Ozi about the batteries and also with the way they are managed I have a couple of e-bikes both with Bosch drives because when you see what is in a Bosch battery in the way of management electronics you can believe their claim that they should last 9 years and never had a problem with them as before purchasing the second Bosch e-bike a cheaper AEG/Samson system e-bike was replaced and that replacement returned as both devolped faults almost instantly.
Not planning on using an Ami on dual carriageways as none near me but as I've seen the french use quadracycles in rural districts it's worth a test drive to see how they cope will country lanes and hills. years ago had my name down as interested in a Cree SAM but looks like mass production never got going. Cree SAM - Wikipedia


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## Ozi (9 Jan 2022)

chris.s said:


> Agree with Ozi about the batteries and also with the way they are managed I have a couple of e-bikes both with Bosch drives because when you see what is in a Bosch battery in the way of management electronics you can believe their claim that they should last 9 years and never had a problem with them as before purchasing the second Bosch e-bike a cheaper AEG/Samson system e-bike was replaced and that replacement returned as both devolped faults almost instantly.
> Not planning on using an Ami on dual carriageways as none near me but as I've seen the french use quadracycles in rural districts it's worth a test drive to see how they cope will country lanes and hills. years ago had my name down as interested in a Cree SAM but looks like mass production never got going. Cree SAM - WikipediaView attachment 126375


Interesting little vehicle (looks remarkably like a grasshopper from the front), probably killed by the batteries of the day and massive cost of low volume production. We desperately need incentives to get things like this into general use and bring the costs down to where the average person can not only afford them but saves money in the process. It's a bit like seat belts, everyone knew they should use them but usage hovered around 10 - 15% because we all know we are good drivers and other people have accidents, a fifty pound fine people believed in and usage reach 90%, massive cut to death and serious injury on the roads. 

People are going to hate this idea but if all new drivers were limited to vehicles with 2 seats and performance like the car I started this thread with we would soon have low cost minimalist vehicles on the roads. I don't like laws that are inflexible, if it was down to me rules like that would be the basic assumption but people would be able to apply for exemptions, ie. young mum with two kids needs a four seater. Same principle all new houses should be assumed to have some form of renewable energy supply and rain water harvesting, there will be instances where that doesn't make sense, if your roof is in shadow or the local infrastructure cannot cope with the added generation the builder should be able to apply for an exemption license. 

Can I ask what e-bikes you have.


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## Spectric (9 Jan 2022)

That Citroen Ami looks like it has it's origins with postman Pat's van and Noddys car, but looks more asian than french. The near future will be hybrids, if it is the way Toyota are going then they realise batteries are still not yet good enough. Long term there will be far less personal transport in the way of cars, public transport will become the norm and the biggest problem, that of the daily comute to work will hopefully be resolved so people in one town do not pass others coming from where they are heading to work in the town they live in. Even further ahead we will need amphibious vehicles once the sea levels rise and cut swathes through our road networks.


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## chris.s (9 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> Can I ask what e-bikes you have.


an Ortler Montreux from 2015 like this but with hub dynamo for lights which now feed off drive battery,

and a Lombardo Mio which has been modified with folding pedals and headstock to make it store easily in my motorhome.


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## D_W (9 Jan 2022)

Doris said:


> My Toyota hybrid is 6 years old and the batteries are still going strong according to my mechanic



I've never heard the battery argument from someone who actually has BEVs or HEVs or PHEVs.

The battery isn't what makes the cars risky to own when they're 10 years old (as in, if you go shopping for one that's 10 years old - if you have a car already for 10 years and it works well, it's probably already done its shift), it's the whole charging system.

This was an argument against prius vehicles (which were NiMH) that never made sense. The batteries were conditioned by the car and I recall someone who sold batteries being quizzed..."of the batteries last so well, then who are you selling batteries to?"

The answer from the guy "mostly batteries damaged in accidents, not to replace batteries that stopped working". I don't think most cars can outlast batteries (including teslas - if a tesla lasts several hundred thousand miles before its battery is between 80 and 90%, I think the rest of the car will be failing more than the batteries.


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## heimlaga (9 Jan 2022)

Still with 10 or 15 years battery life there will be a problem for many of us.

My fist car was 16 years old when I took it over. I drove it for 21 years. Had to quit because the supply of spare parts is too depleted. The car itself is technically good for 10 more years of everyday use.
My new car which I recently bought is also 16 years old. I hope I can keep it running for at least 10 preferably 20 years.

The alternative to this sort of car ownership would be no car at all. Which in turn would imply no work at all. A life on benefits.
If they want me to spend more money on cars than this absolute minimum wages must rise significantly.


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## Jameshow (9 Jan 2022)

EV cars have been both high end and quite niche... When the market matures prices will fall and choice will increase. 

The infrastructure needs to catch up imho for people to readily move over to ev. 

However I'm concerned that the is enough power produced to supply both EV and heat pumps - all the eggs in one basket comes to mind!


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## Doris (9 Jan 2022)

D_W said:


> I don't think most cars can outlast batteries (including teslas - if a tesla lasts several hundred thousand miles before its battery is between 80 and 90%, I think the rest of the car will be failing more than the batteries.



That's if the batteries haven't caught fire beforehand. There's a few YouTube videos floating around of them catching fire quite spectacularly 



heimlaga said:


> My fist car was 16 years old when I took it over. I drove it for 21 years. Had to quit because the supply of spare parts is too depleted. The car itself is technically good for 10 more years of everyday use.



This was my plan also. My previous car (also a Toyota) was 2 months away from its 21st birthday. I bought it 3 years ago as my first car and it was mechanically sound still, 80,000 miles on the clock and still going strong. I replaced a few parts (mostly fixtures like a sunroof and misty headlights) but the car itself still ran perfectly.

But then, one day in September I was asked to park it in the street while work was being done on the front of our house and my beloved car was stolen. Handbrake cable cut and winched away on a recovery truck (this was at 11am I should add and was even filmed by a neighbor on his mobile phone). The car the police told me, that I thought would go on for quite a few more years, was stolen for scrap and would probably be in bits now. The greenest thing to do I was advised was to keep the car going for as long as possible, even though it did consume more fuel, but when my car was stolen I was advised to get a self charging hybrid.

I should of added that my Toyota hybrid is 6 years old but with only 20k on the clock, but my mechanic who used to work at Toyota, assured me that it had at least 100k if not more in it. I don't drive huge miles and so I'm hoping this car will last me a lot longer than my previous one (I don't intend to park it on the street anymore)


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## D_W (9 Jan 2022)

Doris said:


> That's if the batteries haven't caught fire beforehand. There's a few YouTube videos floating around of them catching fire quite spectacularly



That stuff is a little overbaked (the pushing of "battery cars burn!"). 

They do. They have fires at a lower rate than regular gasoline I/C cars per mile driven, though (about 1/10th as often. I guess it's fair to say that the average tesla is newer, but that's a rate per mile driven given by the US DOT.)

I think a lot of the fire started in internal combustion engine cars are also electrical in nature (counting fires not caused by accidents). I've had about an average of one recall per car in the US replacing switches or controllers identified as fire sources or potential fire sources.


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## clogs (9 Jan 2022)

said it before...
to replace my TD Kombi for the equiv electric vehicle is £60,000....
not on ur nelly.....
it's done 400,000klms and has a new engine so will go a lot further.....
that is the green way to go....new cars are just to expensive in everyway...


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## Jameshow (9 Jan 2022)

clogs said:


> said it before...
> to replace my TD Kombi for the equiv electric vehicle is £60,000....
> not on ur nelly.....
> it's done 400,000klms and has a new engine so will go a lot further.....
> that is the green way to go....new cars are just to expensive in everyway...


Would I replace our T5 transporter no way, would I replace my transit oh yea!! 

The new transit EV looks really good good range and they have increased the weight to 4.25t which is great too.


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## heimlaga (9 Jan 2022)

Doris said:


> That's if the batteries haven't caught fire beforehand. There's a few YouTube videos floating around of them catching fire quite spectacularly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The difference being that when your old car was stolen you could afford to buy an almost new hybrid.
For me that would mean taking loans on a level which could only go one way. Bankrupsy and property auction.
I do not bash you for that. You probably did a sensibe thing in your situation.
We others who are less well off can only buy another old car. I just wonder what an electric car will be like when it is 37 years with 350000 km on the clock as my old car was when I was forced to take it out of insurance and use due to shortage of spare parts. I also wonder what a "new" 15-20 years old electric car will be like when one buys it.


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## Doris (9 Jan 2022)

heimlaga said:


> The difference being that when your old car was stolen you could afford to buy an almost new hybrid.
> For me that would mean taking loans on a level which could only go one way. Bankrupsy and property auction.
> I do not bash you for that. You probably did a sensibe thing in your situation.
> We others who are less well off can only buy another old car.



I quite agree. If I wasn't as fortunate to have been able to buy a hybrid I would have bought the exact same car I had been driving before, there are still quite a few of them around considering how old they are now. Many people called it a banger because it was old but they're outliving some much newer cars. Although this new E10 fuel it apparently wouldn't have liked and never got the chance to see for myself as it was stolen the day I was due to fill it up. I still miss my old car very much, even though my new car is very smart and greener it doesn't have the fun in it, if you get what I mean.


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## heimlaga (9 Jan 2022)

I understand. A rugged design which you have gotten used to and know how to get the best out of. Hard to beat.

I would not change my 50 years old tractor for an brand new one even if someone was foolish enough to make the offer.


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## Fergie 307 (9 Jan 2022)

heimlaga said:


> The difference being that when your old car was stolen you could afford to buy an almost new hybrid.
> For me that would mean taking loans on a level which could only go one way. Bankrupsy and property auction.
> I do not bash you for that. You probably did a sensibe thing in your situation.
> We others who are less well off can only buy another old car. I just wonder what an electric car will be like when it is 37 years with 350000 km on the clock as my old car was when I was forced to take it out of insurance and use due to shortage of spare parts. I also wonder what a "new" 15-20 years old electric car will be like when one buys it.


Good for you. Older cars also have the advantage that they tend to have less in the way of fancy electronic gadgets to go wrong, often impossible to repair as they are totally sealed. My daily driver is a 1993 Jeep Cherokee with over 150,000 miles, about 100,000 of which in.my ownership. Runs on LPG so very low emissions etc. Has cost me very little over the years apart from routine servicing, which I do myself. Bit annoyed at the recent hike in the price of gas though, went from 56 to 72p a litre in the space of a month, scandalous.


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## D_W (9 Jan 2022)

Doris said:


> That's if the batteries haven't caught fire beforehand. There's a few YouTube videos floating around of them catching fire quite spectacularly



See comment above - fire incidents are 1/10th as common as internal combustion cars. Not sure if tesla has any fatalities, but the S is in a lot of those videos. What I read about the fires is this:
* the S is far less common than gas cars (but not 1/10th -1/10th includes the model 3 which has lower fire incidence per billion road miles of data) when burning
* when the battery cars burn, they burn for a long time
* when gas cars burn, especially if they burn enough to rupture the gas tank, the fire is more intense, but its hot and quick

But worrying about fires in battery powered cars having not worried about it in gas powered cars doesn't make sense. Deaths in gas powered cars occur sometimes if the fire starts near the gas tank (according to the NHTSA article). 

I don't have a battery car - they're still in the early adopter phase (more expensive). In my house, I"ve taken over the garage as a shop - batteries or not, I don't want to give it up (and the teslas, etc, would charge fine outside, but they spend some moderate amount of energy conditioning the battery packs to a given temp. The garage is below my bedrooms, so the idea now thinking back - of parking gas cars in there in the first place wasn't spectacular. I have oxy and mapp bottles in the garage now (just the plumber type). My wife loves to speculate that they're going to explode spontaneously, but didn't think twice about parking cars in the garage.


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## Fergie 307 (9 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> I'm going to stick my head over the parapet one more time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same boat, my regular commute is about 12 miles each way, would love to go electric, but just too expensive. tried it by push bike once, terrifying will never do that again. What we need is an electric version of the little two seaters you see in Holland, can't remember who makes them. Maybe with a top speed of 50mph and 100 mile range. I am sure if they made enough of them the price would come down to a more affordable level. Maybe some incentive from government could kick start it. In the meantime I will carry on with LPG. Or in the summer my old 2stroke MZ bike, not very green but quite a hoot.


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## Smike (10 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> I'm going to stick my head over the parapet one more time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes not bad. Decent range and usable top speed, unlike the Twizy or Ami. A very high percentage of cars I see has only one occupant. To help relieve congestion it’s important to size this sort of vehicle so that two can fit comfortably side by side on our roads and parking spaces. Also try to keep prices below say £8 K ?


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## John on the Wirral (10 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> I'm going to stick my head over the parapet one more time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I run a self-charging hybrid and will be looking into the plug-in version as this would give me the best option in my opinion. I am retired so shopping and visiting friends is my usual mileage. I have a driveway so I only intend keeping my battery charged up using 13 amp - I appreciate that there have been tremendous advances in battery technology ( I fly model planes so I appreciate the advances). So,most of my usage would be local and the plug-in varient of my Kia is up to 38 miles but would hardly bother me as I would keep the battery topped up. On the occasional long journey.I will be running on at a good return as the first 30-40miles are "free". My friends who run full EV have had very stressful moments. I don't think that elecric is necessaryly the answer unless the boffin in Cornwall has the answer (see Metro paper). He reckons he can make air ally battteries from scrap ally. To good to be true? April Fools joke? My friend has researched it a bit and it seems he has UK backers and has bought the "Austin" name and some premises. This,of course,would be a massiive gamechanger especially as the little pancake battery he holds in his hand supposedly -wait for it - gives a 1500 mile range!


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## Just4Fun (10 Jan 2022)

John on the Wirral said:


> So,most of my usage would be local and the plug-in varient of my Kia is up to 38 miles but would hardly bother me as I would keep the battery topped up.


I read something recently by someone who had owned an EV for a few years, and this is exactly what he did. He would make a short trip, come home, and plug the car in to recharge it. He now says this cycling the battery between, say, 100% and 80% was the wrong thing to do; it would have been better for the battery to let the charge drop lower before recharging it. Because he did not do that the maximum battery capacity had dropped considerably.
I don't know if more modern batteries would suffer from the same issue, but it could be worth checking the optimal recharge strategy.


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## Spectric (10 Jan 2022)

We do need clean transport but it is the timescale which is being pushed that will cause the most issues, it is like we have suddenly woken up and trying to run before we can walk. There will be a need for the ICE for many years to come, may not be burning diesel or petroleum but there are many cases where using electric just cannot work in the foreseable future, look at Maersk who ship a million containers a day, going electric will reduce there capacity by 60% and they are therefore looking at hydrogen ICE's with a new vessel now on order. As for personal transport, hybrids are the first steps because you don't have any issues with mileage and you can also look at using an ICE to just turn a generator or hydraulic pump which also allows for a cleaner solution.


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## hairy (10 Jan 2022)

I like the OP but considering what Piaggio offer with three wheels I think that would suggest the OP would not be classed as a motorbike in Europe?
I really liked the Twizzy but don't know why they didn't make it weather tight.
I may get a Honda Super Cub that they say does 180mpg, more realistically only 150mpg and just suit up. Having had bikes and cars of a very minimal nature I don't think getting hit by something bigger in one or other would turn out much different. Three wheels helps stay upright of course.
However common or not an EV fire is, putting it out is a big issue. A lithium/hydrogen hybrid as Hyundai are making, well, what could possibly go wrong


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## Terry - Somerset (10 Jan 2022)

A typical EV weighs in at 1500-1800kg - usually carries 75-150kg of human cargo - hugely inefficient.

There is a strong argument for an EV which has a range of ~50 miles, and top speed of ~50mph. For urban use this could be built very light weight (below ~300kg?). 

Battery pack for a full EV weighs 4-500kg. An urban EV may need 20-40 kg batteries to provide the urban performance required with low vehicle weight. Batteries could be demountable, modular (max weight per module <15kg), charged domestically without a separate charging point.

At volume this could be cheap local transport. On a purely personal note, 

uncomfortable going full EV due to range limitations (an issue 10-20 times a year)
hybrid possible but expensive - typically buy cars around 1-2 years old, keep for several years
urban EV would make sense as 2nd car in household (current one needs replacement)


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## Ozi (10 Jan 2022)

Smike said:


> Yes not bad. Decent range and usable top speed, unlike the Twizy or Ami. A very high percentage of cars I see has only one occupant. To help relieve congestion it’s important to size this sort of vehicle so that two can fit comfortably side by side on our roads and parking spaces. Also try to keep prices below say £8 K ?


Very much agree on the two seats option, possibly set up as two or one plus luggage. This will get more possible as batteries continue to improve, this is the first single seater I have seen that I could actualy see me buying if it becomes available. Should also be possible to pull a very small trailer to carry shopping and or range extending battery. If we are talking very basic very small vehicles then £8K should be easily achieved if but only if volume production can be achieved, for that to happen they need to be practical and I think this is getting close but they also need to be incentivized. the benefits to the country could be huge, our other options will be extremely expensive.

We carry on as we are. Ever increasing fuel costs, pollution, congestion, etc.

We go all electric with vehicles similar to current. We have to massively increase the amount of power we generate build new power stations, all the infrastructure issues.

or we stop driving around in 5 seat vehicles of ever increasing size (except when necessary) 

Cars like these will never cover all requirements, I would like to see flexible hire contracts where people such as myself could commute in a micro vehicle at low cost to me and the world in general then easily swap the vehicle for a reasonable charge if I need a van, towing vehicle or what ever only for the time I actually need it. That would be a great cost saving all round for people like my in-laws who drive a monstrous SUV because they need it to tow their caravan once a year!


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## powertools (10 Jan 2022)

I just wish that people would stop thinking that ev's are zero emission and have no impact on the environment.


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## Martin_S (10 Jan 2022)

powertools said:


> I just wish that people would stop thinking that ev's are zero emission and have no impact on the environment.


I think you are taking the 'zero emission' statement as a literal when what it actually means is 'no CO2 or NOX emissions from the exhaust' - which is actually pretty good.
Add to that the fact that the brakes don't wear like ICE vehicles because you rarely use them, so less particulate emissions and many less moving parts so less wear and tear.
But yes, you do get 'emissions' - the tyres on my EV wear (not as fast as on an ICE vehicle) and that produces particulates - but so little compared to an ICE I struggle when people try to justify not changing based on this sort of argument.


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## Ozi (10 Jan 2022)

John on the Wirral said:


> I run a self-charging hybrid and will be looking into the plug-in version as this would give me the best option in my opinion. I am retired so shopping and visiting friends is my usual mileage. I have a driveway so I only intend keeping my battery charged up using 13 amp - I appreciate that there have been tremendous advances in battery technology ( I fly model planes so I appreciate the advances). So,most of my usage would be local and the plug-in varient of my Kia is up to 38 miles but would hardly bother me as I would keep the battery topped up. On the occasional long journey.I will be running on at a good return as the first 30-40miles are "free". My friends who run full EV have had very stressful moments. I don't think that elecric is necessaryly the answer unless the boffin in Cornwall has the answer (see Metro paper). He reckons he can make air ally battteries from scrap ally. To good to be true? April Fools joke? My friend has researched it a bit and it seems he has UK backers and has bought the "Austin" name and some premises. This,of course,would be a massiive gamechanger especially as the little pancake battery he holds in his hand supposedly -wait for it - gives a 1500 mile range!


I'm in two minds about plug in hybrids, a lot of owners end up not charging them daft as that sounds, then lug two power trains around to no benefit. They can also be very heavy, the Kia you talk about is one of the better examples in these respects. With a PHEV how you charge the battery can have a massive influnce on it's life and performance, stay within 20 - 80% charge and avoid rapid charging and you will get much more out of it long term, this is why the self charging hybrid batteries do so well. I haven't seen the battery from the boffin in Cornwall, I'm skeptical when someone makes a claim that impressive but it will be great if true. I agree with you that electric is not the answer by it's self but think it can be a large part of the answer, possibly hydrogen will make up another slice. Once we get to the stage where there are a lot of "used" automotive batteries around they are ideal for home storage, a car I worked on had a battery that would when new give up to 127 amps by the time that drops to 90 you have a sports car with the performance of a milk float, few houses draw anything like that, repacked to the size of a washing machine and they will run a house for decades before needing recycling, if the average house in the country (that's a big ask) could store electricity for ten days and the average car for three days we could profitably install more wind generation etc. and ride out most of the times of calm saving the country a fortune on imported gas.


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## Ozi (10 Jan 2022)

Martin_S said:


> I think you are taking the 'zero emission' statement as a literal when what it actually means is 'no CO2 or NOX emissions from the exhaust' - which is actually pretty good.
> Add to that the fact that the brakes don't wear like ICE vehicles because you rarely use them, so less particulate emissions and many less moving parts so less wear and tear.
> But yes, you do get 'emissions' - the tyres on my EV wear (not as fast as on an ICE vehicle) and that produces particulates - but so little compared to an ICE I struggle when people try to justify not changing based on this sort of argument.


The big issue with emissions from EVs is the method of generating the power to build, use and recycle. all vehicles should be assess on full lifetime emissions.


hairy said:


> I like the OP but considering what Piaggio offer with three wheels I think that would suggest the OP would not be classed as a motorbike in Europe?
> I really liked the Twizzy but don't know why they didn't make it weather tight.
> I may get a Honda Super Cub that they say does 180mpg, more realistically only 150mpg and just suit up. Having had bikes and cars of a very minimal nature I don't think getting hit by something bigger in one or other would turn out much different. Three wheels helps stay upright of course.
> However common or not an EV fire is, putting it out is a big issue. A lithium/hydrogen hybrid as Hyundai are making, well, what could possibly go wrong


The impact issue is not as clear cut as people think, I was a crash test engineer for many years and have seen many small vehicles that do well against much heavier ones, there is a limit obviously but survival cells and good restraint systems can achieve a lot. Bikes well much as I have enjoyed them you don't ride one for the safety.


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## Droogs (10 Jan 2022)

The thing that gets me most is that the arguments put forward against switching are generally by people who have little to no real awareness as to what is in the pipeline over the next couple of years. Take a look at what is coming from China (deride them for politics etc but they are the tip of the spear of the ride that is the future). Take a look at what is now reaching pre-production in terms of batteries, technologies which have no cobalt and use common elements. Regarding batteries and cobalt- so what if what's available now has some, 90% of the naysayers seem oblivious to or ignore the fact that in order to make your ICE cars fuel for the year the fossil fuel industry uses 5 times as much cobalt to refine the petrol for each and every car and has done so for the last 50 years. Why do you think EV battery companies were able to find ready suppliers of cobalt in the first place.

BEV cars are, for the foreseeable future , the future of private personal transport whether you like it or not; of the top 7 auto makers in the world 5 have already closed their ICE R&D departments or switched them completely to EV R&D, Mazda being the exception. ICE based transport is killing me, you and your children and helping along with other industries that we need to drastically change to destroying the very biosphere we need in order to survive let alone thrive. The recalcitrance for change is driven by fear of change, laziness and for the main part selfishness. If, doing what is needed to ensure our children's survival let alone prosperity means that you have get of your backside to move around then so be it. If you can't afford to buy transport that uses this technology in order to get around then buy a bike or use public transport or hire a vehicle fit for the purpose you need *when *you need it and go without or find other ways to meet your needs. 

I would love to have a BEV but as things are I wont be able to afford one for at least 5 years by going without other things in order to get one 2nd hand. I even have my beloved camper on a SORN for 6 months a year and only use it in spring summer. The rest of the time I use public transport or hire a car. It doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the electric car nor blunt my willingness to accept and adopt the changes we need to make for all our sakes. 
I'm writing this not to virtue signal but try and show others that we have to make changes to the way we live or we and our children along with huge numbers of the other beings we share this mud ball with wont be able to live at all


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## hairy (10 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> The impact issue is not as clear cut as people think,


Sitting in a moving Caterham next to an artic I can assure you it is


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## hairy (10 Jan 2022)

Droogs said:


> The thing that gets me most is that the arguments put forward against switching are generally by people who have little to no real awareness as to what is in the pipeline over the next couple of years. Take a look at what is coming from China (deride them for politics etc but they are the tip of the spear of the ride that is the future). Take a look at what is now reaching pre-production in terms of batteries, technologies which have no cobalt and use common elements. Regarding batteries and cobalt- so what if what's available now has some, 90% of the naysayers seem oblivious to or ignore the fact that in order to make your ICE cars fuel for the year the fossil fuel industry uses 5 times as much cobalt to refine the petrol for each and every car and has done so for the last 50 years. Why do you think EV battery companies were able to find ready suppliers of cobalt in the first place.
> 
> BEV cars are, for the foreseeable future , the future of private personal transport whether you like it or not; of the top 7 auto makers in the world 5 have already closed their ICE R&D departments or switched them completely to EV R&D, Mazda being the exception. ICE based transport is killing me, you and your children and helping along with other industries that we need to drastically change to destroying the very biosphere we need in order to survive let alone thrive. The recalcitrance for change is driven by fear of change, laziness and for the main part selfishness. If, doing what is needed to ensure our children's survival let alone prosperity means that you have get of your backside to move around then so be it. If you can't afford to buy transport that uses this technology in order to get around then buy a bike or use public transport or hire a vehicle fit for the purpose you need *when *you need it and go without or find other ways to meet your needs.
> 
> ...



" If you can't afford to buy transport that uses this technology in order to get around then buy a bike or use public transport or hire a vehicle" That would mean most of the rural countryside of the UK moving into cities and live where?


How many of the top 7 auto makers would have closed their ICE R&D departments if politicians hadn't effectively forced them to?

ICE is killing pretty much no-one once you get to a decent Euro emissions level. An EV may produce less pollution than an older ICE car where it is, but it is certainly causing issues where the power comes from (or not), and how today is child labour still in play for what the West sees as "our" salvation?

If it was an obvious cut and dried fact then opinionated argument wouldn't need to come into an EV vs ICE debate, politicians wouldn't need to coerce. I recently read EV battery costs have actually gone up. UK politicians who agreed to the future ban on new ICE sales have said the figures they were shown on how the EV cars to replace them will become affordable has been proven wanting, ie they were mislead when asked to implement the ICE ban.

How is it that removing the transport that allows me to live where I do (4x4 diesel) is seen as saving the planet, but those of us who are happy to eat avocados or blueberries from Peru carry on regardless? 

If I spend tens of thousands on an EV then the world is saved. If I don't my children die Odd.


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## D_W (10 Jan 2022)

hairy said:


> How many of the top 7 auto makers would have closed their ICE R&D departments if politicians hadn't effectively forced them to?



Probably near none. But they would've also squashed BEV makers like Tesla if possible by lobbying for rules against them. They've used the legislative influence for a long time to do things like squash the GM EV (can't remember the name of the car from the 90s, was it just "EV"?) even though there was a market demand for it. If fedgov in the US tells automakers they'll get nothing in return for ICE R&D, that's what they'll do. If they can lobby against other market competition and create barriers to entry in return, they'll do that.


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## Fergie 307 (10 Jan 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> A typical EV weighs in at 1500-1800kg - usually carries 75-150kg of human cargo - hugely inefficient.
> 
> There is a strong argument for an EV which has a range of ~50 miles, and top speed of ~50mph. For urban use this could be built very light weight (below ~300kg?).
> 
> ...


This is one of the things that concerns me, and I will say straight away that I don't know as much as I probably should about it. It has always seemed to me that batteries are to some extent a dead end. I can't see them being viable for hgv for example. Battery weight reducing payload, turn around time for charging etc. So it has always seemed to me that hydrogen is the most sensible answer, avoids the problems associated with batteries, range, recharge time, mining the raw materials and so on. But then you have the situation where you aren't going to buy a hydrogen vehicle if there is no where to fill it up, and no one is going to build hydrogen into their forecourts when there are no cars to fill. I suppose my point is that batteries are ok for city use, but beyond that they become less and less attractive. If we decide to use hydrogen for longer haul vehicles, then wouldn't it be sensible to just settle on that technology more or less across the board, and get on with it. As I say something I need to learn more about so would be interested in the views of those who do.


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## Martin_S (10 Jan 2022)

@Ozi You say, " The big issue with emissions from EVs is the method of generating the power to build, use and recycle. all vehicles should be assess on full lifetime emissions. "

Agree completely - you need to watch this:


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## Fergie 307 (10 Jan 2022)

Martin_S said:


> I think you are taking the 'zero emission' statement as a literal when what it actually means is 'no CO2 or NOX emissions from the exhaust' - which is actually pretty good.
> Add to that the fact that the brakes don't wear like ICE vehicles because you rarely use them, so less particulate emissions and many less moving parts so less wear and tear.
> But yes, you do get 'emissions' - the tyres on my EV wear (not as fast as on an ICE vehicle) and that produces particulates - but so little compared to an ICE I struggle when people try to justify not changing based on this sort of argument.


I know it's hardly a major factor but do the tyres really wear less? Surely one of the major factors contributing to tyre wear is the weight of the vehicle and most battery electrics are damn heavy compared to an equivalent sized petrol or diesel. Not as knowledgeable in this area as I would like to be so maybe I have missed something.


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## Fergie 307 (10 Jan 2022)

Martin_S said:


> @Ozi You say, " The big issue with emissions from EVs is the method of generating the power to build, use and recycle. all vehicles should be assess on full lifetime emissions. "
> 
> Agree completely - you need to watch this:



Very good. But that shouldn't have been too difficult for people to work out. My greater concern would be that If we could wave a magic wand and all go battery electric, where is all the Lithium going to come from and how long before it runs out? So there are issues with that as well, albeit not on the same scale. It has always seemed to me that hydrogen is a more sensible route, but in fairness I don't know enough about it to know if that's right or not.


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## Martin_S (10 Jan 2022)

Do the tyres wear less? I think so. Have not had to change mine yet, so can't confirm but I do drive differently. With regen instead of conventional braking, you drive a lot more smoothly and there is less rapid deceleration, so I assume tyres wear less, but we will see. Also, because of the weight, you need tyres with stronger sidewalls which negates the weight issue.
Lithium availability? It really isn't an issue.
Hydrogen is a non-starter until someone finds a way to produce it that does not use so much energy


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## Spectric (10 Jan 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> where is all the Lithium going to come from and how long before it runs out?


Turn this around, if we had been using Lithium batteries before petrol then I dare say we would now be using petrol as Lithium would be near depleted. So lithium has to be just a bridge from where technology is now to a place they hope it will reach before we run out or we could go full circle and be back to using classic cars.

Also think how many jobs will be lost globally when we no longer use ICE's, from geologist looking for reserves, extracting raw crude and getting it to refineries, refining, supply chain to fuel stations, actual ICE from design through testing to production with a very large number of component suppliers and this just grows arms and legs, probably many millions of jobs will be lost world wide.


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## Fergie 307 (10 Jan 2022)

Spectric said:


> Turn this around, if we had been using Lithium batteries before petrol then I dare say we would now be using petrol as Lithium would be near depleted. So lithium has to be just a bridge from where technology is now to a place they hope it will reach before we run out or we could go full circle and be back to using classic cars.
> 
> Also think how many jobs will be lost globally when we no longer use ICE's, from geologist looking for reserves, extracting raw crude and getting it to refineries, refining, supply chain to fuel stations, actual ICE from design through testing to production with a very large number of component suppliers and this just grows arms and legs, probably many millions of jobs will be lost world wide.


Seems to me that one of the problems is that this particular can has been kicked down the road for so long that now everyone's in a bit of a rush to sort it out, never a good way to approach anything.


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## Martin_S (10 Jan 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Seems to me that one of the problems is that this particular can has been kicked down the road for so long that now everyone's in a bit of a rush to sort it out, never a good way to approach anything.


I think it is more of a change in mindset has happened. Everyone resisted it for as long as they could but suddenly the wider population has bought in and one or 2 companies like Tesla and countries like China have shown the way, and now everyone else is rushing to catch up or go out of business.


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## Jameshow (10 Jan 2022)

I never noticed tyre wear being different on different cars... Except on a Volvo V70 T5 that uses to eat tyres for breakfast as well as petrol!!


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## Jameshow (10 Jan 2022)

Martin_S said:


> I think it is more of a change in mindset has happened. Everyone resisted it for as long as they could but suddenly the wider population has bought in and one or 2 companies like Tesla and countries like China have shown the way, and now everyone else is rushing to catch up or go out of business.


Along with a Swedish teenager and a British grandad!


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## Richard_C (10 Jan 2022)

I've been thinking "what if" for a couple of years now - when I travel I actively think "what if I was doing this in an all electric car?" I would really like to embrace the future and go all electric when the current cars expire. I have confidence in the cars - not Tesla because of cost and anything that Elton Musk can send over the air software upgrades to is perhaps to be avoided - but I don't have any confidence in the charging network.

We live in a village with 1 outward bus a day (7.34 am) so we have 2 conventional IC engine cars, both a few years old but neither needing to be replaced soon. We can fill up either in any filling station in the UK or Europe. The nozzles fit. It takes 10 minutes max including paying. We can pay by any credit or debit card or cash. I don't need to have a functioning smart phone or phone signal.

Current state of EV charging is a mish-mash of different and seemingly unreliable charging points, each requiring some kind of phone app or account. Takes 40 minutes or more (much more for some). Can I charge up anywhere in UK or Europe - who knows. What does it cost? Who knows - no shiny big signs saying xx pence per KwH, from what I have seen some can be 3x the price of others.

OK then, charge overnight at home. Fine, that gives me a safe useable range of say 200 miles - 250 max unless I buy a Tesla or wait a bit. All my local trips will be fine whatever the range. Day trip for a walk along the coast, 120 miles each way, nope, marginal. Don't really want to spend 20% of my time at the destination at the one slow charging point in near the town, and it often has a queue and if the supermarket is busy the space is used by non ev cars. Visit my daughter - nope, not without finding a charging point, need a top-up charge in both directions. Visit my son, fine one way but won't do both and he lives in a city flat so no chance of charging there. Need to find one in the 'wild west' of commercial charging stations.

(Had a week in Ambleside between lockdowns last year: both EV charging points - only 2, in a major tourist town that boasts of it's net zero target - were out of order all week)

So - an EV would suit over 60% of my journeys but only 10% of my annual miles. That's an important distinction - others will find different answers. If you were running a van mostly in an inner city and doing <100 miles a day it would make a lot of sense to go electric. PHEV is a dead end unless you do very regular journeys like a daily commute within its very limited battery range: you are paying >£10k more than the conventional equivalent and off battery its consumption is worse, if you only do 10% of your miles on battery it's pointless both financially and environmentally.

I don't see any of this being thought through - and what about when we all have EVs, will the local power networks cope with every house overnight charging, will places like service stations be able to offer any kind of service on busy days like start of school holidays. Will every hotel, holiday cottage, campsite, be able to offer charging?

Government has set a target for ending the sale of IC engined cars and expects the free market to sort out charging. So far they have created a patchwork mess. We needed public investment and public sector planning to create water, sewage, phone and electricity networks (all of which were given away at way below asset value to kick start the private utilities beloved of Thatcher). Roads are for the most part state assets. To make this all work, we need state planned and maybe state owned charging networks.

I'm pretty sure we will end up with one small local EV and one IC engine car, but not until EV prices come down a bit and not until we really need to change. To go to both being EVs I will need much more reassurance that I will be able to get to my destination on long trips. I don't mind a 30 minute charging time every 3 hours - but I do mind having to search around for a charger and search around for a way to pay. 

Give me a decent charging service and I will place the order for an EV tomorrow.


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## Terry - Somerset (10 Jan 2022)

Currently EV adds to demand met by carbon based fuels. EV locally level means less environmental pollution. Consumption of carbon fuels is ~neutral and the balance is complex.

If cars are carbon fuelled they will always pollute. It is entirely plausible green power generation can replace carbon based fuels for heating and transport. 

There are hurdles which need to be overcome - eg: recycling batteries, transmission infrastructure, eliminating rare elements etc etc. 10 years ago the mainstream EV was the Nissan Leaf with high cost and limited range, in 10 years time could largely eliminate perceived barriers to change.

I am unconvinced that hydrogen will be adopted as a green fuel, save possibly for HGVs and equipment with high power requirements where the higher energy density of H2 may be critical. 

The reason - most H2 is generated from natural gas at present although it could be made using electricity generated using wind or solar power. It then intuitively becomes inefficient compared to electricity - losses to make hydrogen, compress it, fuel cell converts it back to electricity. Storage at high pressures needs to be compared with the cost of batteries.

The technology behind electricity distribution is very well established and understood although capacity increases will be required. H2 has almost zero infrastructure - it has missed the green revolution.


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## Cabinetman (10 Jan 2022)

A major worry of an EV vehicle is coming to a halt at the side of the road, for many years to counteract that I carried a spare gallon of fuel in the boot, will we be see cars carrying their own portable generators (And a gallon of fuel) in the boot? Highly inefficient I know.
Perhaps a charged up pair of batteries, bit like you used to be able to buy for your phone?


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## Fergie 307 (11 Jan 2022)

I find myself in much the same position as Richard C. My daily commute is about 12miles each way, so easily accomplished by EV. But I also make regular trips to look after my 99 year old dad. That's a 200+ miles round trip and very few charging facilities where he lives, so would be pushing my luck. Maybe the answer, in the medium term at least, is to make an affordable, relatively short range two seater EV. I am sure if they put their minds to it government could come up with measures in the way of tax or other regulation to encourage manufacturers to build these, maybe supported by a cheap government sponsored loan scheme to assist the public to buy them. We could then make the majority of short journeys in that way. People could retain a larger ICE car for longer trips, with measures to dissuade its regular use, maybe higher fuel cost. Of course how you do this, or anything similar, without unduly penalizing those who still can't afford an EV, or for whom it is impractical would be a bit of a juggling act.


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## treeturner123 (11 Jan 2022)

I agree with Richard C and Fergie 307. Fine to use Public Transport in Cities but even towns don't have sufficient buses though cycling is more of an option in smaller places. 

However, many people now don't live next to their work place as they used to probably till the 1960s when we cleaned the air in part by putting industry etc out of the way. Thus, most of us, even in the new WFH regime, do have to commute to work from time to time. I used to have to go to London from home once or twice a week catching a train from a town 12 miles away at 6.30 in the morning. Any buses then!!!!!

A further point to consider:-
How much tax is collected by fuel tax and VAT on fuel plus tax on most cars? How will ANY Government replace this huge lump of tax? Will they never tax EVs or the electricity to power them? Don't forget one of the principals of Tax is that it needs to be easy to collect. Vehicles of any sort are a sitting target for this! (NB Mrs T forgot this principal with the Poll Tax and look what happened!)

Answers about tax on a Postcard please!!

Have to go now to commute my 25 miles for my one day in the office this week.

Phil


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## Biblu (11 Jan 2022)

Richard_C said:


> Current state of EV charging is a mish-mash of different and seemingly unreliable charging points, each requiring some kind of phone app or account. Takes 40 minutes or more (much more for some). Can I charge up anywhere in UK or Europe - who knows. What does it cost? Who knows - no shiny big signs saying xx pence per KwH, from what I have seen some can be 3x the price of others.
> 
> OK then, charge overnight at home. Fine, that gives me a safe useable range of say 200 miles - 250 max unless I buy a Tesla or wait a bit. All my local trips will be fine whatever the range. Day trip for a walk along the coast, 120 miles each way, nope, marginal. Don't really want to spend 20% of my time at the destination at the one slow charging point in near the town, and it often has a queue and if the supermarket is busy the space is used by non ev cars. Visit my daughter - nope, not without finding a charging point, need a top-up charge in both directions. Visit my son, fine one way but won't do both and he lives in a city flat so no chance of charging there. Need to find one in the 'wild west' of commercial charging stations.
> ...
> Give me a decent charging service and I will place the order for an EV tomorrow.



As a BEV owner, this was a very good post summarising one of the biggest issues with EV ownership (with current ranges). Although the rapid charge points are generally getting better at just being contactless now, with fewer requiring subscription.

When we first switched we had to change our driving style, I used to try my best to get there as quickly as possible, with little patience for stopping on the way. That had to change, to coming 10 minutes off the Motorway to find a little pub or hotel or stopping in the services with a packed lunch to take a 20-40 min break depending on how much charge we need. While >2 hour journeys have increased by maybe 25% (I only have ~130 mile motorway range), I quite enjoy the more relaxed style of driving and stopping for some lunch or something on the way. We've found some lovely little villages and places that we would never have seen.

The euphoria of leaving the house with 'a full tank' is hard to describe, I used to hate getting in the car on a cold and wet winter morning and realising that I needed to stop at a petrol station on the 1 hour commute to work. There is also a quiet smugness at getting into a car that has pre-heated itself while everyone else is scraping away at their windscreens


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## Martin_S (11 Jan 2022)

Richard C argues the 'not yet' mindset very well and in many ways, he is not wrong (though when people were queueing at fuel stations a few months back I smiled as I drove past in my fully charged EV....)
The thing is - once you get used to your EV, your mindset changes. Everyone is different, but for me 99 days out of 100 I drive less than the range of my car, so I get in, drive off, go about my day and when i get back, I plug it in again. I really like not having to go to the petrol station every week, not losing 20 minutes, not getting diesel smelly hands or slippery shoes.
On the odd day, I have to think about where I am going to stop for coffee en route (and any excuse for coffee works for me).
Yes - we are in transition, we could do with more charging points and more commonality between them, but everything is changing fast - there were just over 20,000 public charging points a year ago, today it is very nearly 30,000 - that growth will continue.
Add to that, batteries will get more efficient so your car will need less (less lithium), weigh less (thus less power needed to move) and go further - so the critical point when an EV becomes a much better solution than an ICE for most of us is not far away. I reckon the governments 2030 target will be after that point and no one will need convincing.


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## Richard_C (11 Jan 2022)

Some good points, and to be clear I'm not anti EV just concerned and confused about charging on long trips. Maybe there needs to be a bit more strategic thinking about wider aspects of the way we live and our expectations.

First up - tax and insurance. Some way of replacing the tax take from petrol and diesel is inevitable, so the lower running costs argument for EVs is only temporary. I sometimes think it would be bettter to tax use (which petrol tax does already indirectly) rather than the vehicle. That way, some of us might run a small local EV and a bigger long range car until EV infrastructure gets better. Same with insurance. If I own 2 cars I pay twice but only use one at once. Tax and insure me, not the vehicle.

There is also a peculiarity with VED - one which is easy to fix. The most recent structural change in VED introduced a 5 year premium for luxury vehicles defined as over £40k list price. But EVs cost more, now, so even a modest one can come in over £40k. Manufacturers are getting better at this - lots seem to be 'just under', but put metallic paint on a Kia Niro top spec and you pay an extra £1600 VED over 5 years. With inflation more will cross teh £40k threshold which hasn't been uplifted since it was introduced. The easy answer is to say OK, to encourage 'pure' EVs which cost c. £10k more than the IC ones, we will lift that threshold to £50k for EVs only (not hybrids, not PHEVs). That would bring the basic Tesla 3 under the wire so you don't pay more VED on that than on an oil burning BMW 3 series.

Second, a few lifestyle things. No charging network is likely to be able to cope with all of us doing the same things at the same time. Think about a filling station on the M5 in Devon on the first day of the school holidays. It can't cope with cars at the pumps for 5 minutes each - just think how much space and how many 'pumps' you would need for EVs. So we need to re-think some of that. More self catering and all-in hotel breaks starting on different days of the week, regionally staggered school holidays, maybe abandon the idea of weekends altogether and have a rolling 3 days off in 10 - almost anything so we don't all do stuff at once.

The pandemic has already done some of the work for us - lots of people and employers really questioning the 5 day a week commute and making permanent changes to blended home/office working. I was an HR Director 25+ years ago and we introduced some very flexible patterns. You start from the task: continuous process factory you must have people there at set times. Research not so much, no evidence that you are more productive if you work a rigid 8.30 - 5.00 with a fixed lunch. Finance operations, busy times and less busy times each month - why not trust people to be sensible and allow flexible working. Surprisingly, people are happier and less likely to leave if they don't have to sit in the same traffic for 45 minutes at the start and end of each day. I never minded travel but the daily unchanging grind of my commute* back in the 80's really dragged me down. One of the reasons I changed job. Some changes will hurt some people, some will be welcome, but one thing is certain: we can't have viable EV based road transport and live exactly as we do now.


_* tip for anyone who commutes a fair distance by road and is thinking of moving. Try to live East of where you work. That way, the commute is with the sun behind you rather than in your eyes, you squint less and look younger for longer _


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## Spectric (11 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I never noticed tyre wear being different on different cars


Tyre wear can vary a great deal between makes and models of cars, there are a lot of variables that will impact tyre wear. An obvious one is the type of vehicle, a sporty type of car may suffer higher tyre wear just because of the type of driver and the way it is driven. Equally you may find younger less experienced drivers also wear tyres at a higher rate. When it comes to the vehicle then suspension geometry will play a major role as it decides how the tyre moves in relation to the road, some cars have a lot more camber and can wear tyres very unevenly. We must all remember the VW beetle, the original with a swing axle that pivots from the trans axle and so you see a lot of camber change which was later changed to a trailing arm setup. Another aspect is that older cars with narrow tyres were better in the snow than modern cars with large wide tyres simply because the mass was transfered through a smaller contact patch so more mass per unit area.


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## Terry - Somerset (11 Jan 2022)

We tend to believe that the problems we personally identify are common to all car owners, and that the status quo is precisely that and unlikely ever to change. This is flawed.

The range of personal circumstance is immense - eg:

those who could not now, and may find it difficult in the future - hill farmers 20m from town needing large 4WD, sales manager often driving 300+ miles in a day, dispersed family etc
those for whom an EV would be fine - 2nd car owners, charging on own drive, city dwellers with short commutes, journeys of more than 100 miles almost non-existent etc.
There will not be a single point at which EV ownership becomes either feasible for all. As the technology (vehicles and charging infrastructure) improves, costs fall with development and volume manufacture, s/h EVs become more readily available etc, the pool of potential owners will increase.

The loss of tax revenues from ICE is but a minor fixable issue. As cars will be internet connected, options include road pricing, tax on charging, tax on ownership, tax on new vehicle purchase etc. The current benefit of low tax on electricity vs high taxes on carbon fuels will probably disappear over time.


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## Martin_S (11 Jan 2022)

" The loss of tax revenues from ICE is but a minor fixable issue. As cars will be internet connected, options include road pricing, tax on charging, tax on ownership, tax on new vehicle purchase etc. The current benefit of low tax on electricity vs high taxes on carbon fuels will probably disappear over time. "

@Terry - Somerset : You are not wrong. If I read the proposals correctly, all home charging units installed after June of this year need a separate smart meter. Hard to see why it would need to be metered separately unless you want to tax it....


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## Martin_S (11 Jan 2022)

@Richard_C - Just an observation on the '£40k barrier' : I bought my MG ZS EV mid-2020, new for just over 20k. I did not intend to - just went for a test drive to see what all the fuss was about. Was instantly sold - made by SAIC in China (one of the 5m+ EV's they built that year), designed as an EV from the start (as opposed to a converted IC) with all the electronics in place to keep it in lane, at the same speed as the car in front and all the other stuff modern software/LIDAR/etc allows plus a whole load of standard items like reversing cameras and the like.

At that sort of price, why does anyone ever buy the old technology and continue to pollute the planet?

Yes - there is lots I'd like to see. Over air updates like Tesla so I can get the car updated without booking it into the garage. Faster DC charging so I could fillup in 15 mins at a 150kW charger instead of being limited to 50kW by the cars electronics, V2H connectivity (Vehicle to home) so I could sign up for cheaper off peak electricity and avoid the expensive 4-10pm period by using my car battery to run the household power during that time and then charge up again when it is cheap at 4am..... But nothing is perfect / you get what you pay for / and in 20 years time all of this will be standard on the most basic vehicles. It is coming....


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## Ozi (11 Jan 2022)

Martin_S said:


> @Ozi You say, " The big issue with emissions from EVs is the method of generating the power to build, use and recycle. all vehicles should be assess on full lifetime emissions. "
> 
> Agree completely - you need to watch this:



Excelent video thank you for posting.


Fergie 307 said:


> This is one of the things that concerns me, and I will say straight away that I don't know as much as I probably should about it. It has always seemed to me that batteries are to some extent a dead end. I can't see them being viable for hgv for example. Battery weight reducing payload, turn around time for charging etc. So it has always seemed to me that hydrogen is the most sensible answer, avoids the problems associated with batteries, range, recharge time, mining the raw materials and so on. But then you have the situation where you aren't going to buy a hydrogen vehicle if there is no where to fill it up, and no one is going to build hydrogen into their forecourts when there are no cars to fill. I suppose my point is that batteries are ok for city use, but beyond that they become less and less attractive. If we decide to use hydrogen for longer haul vehicles, then wouldn't it be sensible to just settle on that technology more or less across the board, and get on with it. As I say something I need to learn more about so would be interested in the views of those who do.


One of the issues with hydrogen - of which I am a great fan - is how it is produced. It can be extracted from gas or coal using steam, a very dirty inefficient process. It can be produced by electrolysis splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen which consumes huge amounts of electricity, it then has to be compressed and transported again using huge amounts of electricity. 

So why do it? 
First reason. As you say current battery tech does not work for all of our current transport needs. Some of which we should probably do without (definitely for other people but I might want to see the world and eat veg from the southern hemisphere). JCB are looking to run on hydrogen, no current battery comes close to practical for them. 
Second reason. Renewable power does not always arrive when and where you need it. To produce enough consistently will require energy storage. Home, commercial and vehicle batteries will become an increasing part of this, but without sufficient storage it is uneconomical to put in more generation capacity and have to dump the power at times when there is an excess to cover times of shortage. Take a look at this.









Homepage - MyGridGB


Welcome to MyGridGB The independent resource charting in real time the decarbonisation of British electricity . Britain is transitioning to low carbon electricity. Coal power stations are being decomissioned and new low carbon power stations are taking their place. But how much can wind...




www.mygridgb.co.uk











That's the last 28 days of UK power generation. Notice 16th to 21st December almost no wind and it's winter so solar is almost nil. Ten times as many wind turbines might solve the problem but please NO. If we had double the wind and solar power and could store it in the good times we would be much less dependent on imported Gas. Power stations were responsible for 15.4% of our CO2 last year.

DLDR short answer Hydrogen is expensive and inefficient compared to electricity for transport BUT has a place where batteries don't currently work, it should be rationed for those who need it.

Here's a really unpopular suggestion. Lets assume everyone who can't use public transport will have a small efficient 1/2 seat electric car. Or apply for a permit to have a larger electric vehicle if they have the justification, or if electric doesn't cover justified need they get access to the limited supply of hydrogen. I WOULD NOT WANT TO LIVE IN THAT WORLD so try to do my bit to reduce consumption where I can, currently typing on a computer with a small efficient screen in a cold room with the lights off wearing a jumper and a woolly hat - no tin foil in the hat honest.


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## Ozi (11 Jan 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I know it's hardly a major factor but do the tyres really wear less? Surely one of the major factors contributing to tyre wear is the weight of the vehicle and most battery electrics are damn heavy compared to an equivalent sized petrol or diesel. Not as knowledgeable in this area as I would like to be so maybe I have missed something.


Brakes definitely less wear, tyres it depends, probably not for PHEV or very little difference, probably some advantage for MHEV, SCHy it depends how you drive.


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## Ozi (11 Jan 2022)

Richard_C said:


> I've been thinking "what if" for a couple of years now - when I travel I actively think "what if I was doing this in an all electric car?" I would really like to embrace the future and go all electric when the current cars expire. I have confidence in the cars - not Tesla because of cost and anything that Elton Musk can send over the air software upgrades to is perhaps to be avoided - but I don't have any confidence in the charging network.
> 
> We live in a village with 1 outward bus a day (7.34 am) so we have 2 conventional IC engine cars, both a few years old but neither needing to be replaced soon. We can fill up either in any filling station in the UK or Europe. The nozzles fit. It takes 10 minutes max including paying. We can pay by any credit or debit card or cash. I don't need to have a functioning smart phone or phone signal.
> 
> ...


Can I say I don't like the PHEV concept, some are better than others but they do have one thing going for them. They have a smaller IC engine than the IC only equivalent as to accelerate they use both motors. The advantage of this is that the IC motor spends more of it's working life running at a higher proportion of it's maximum output where it operates more efficiently and in stop start traffic when battery power permits they run electric greatly reducing the emissions on city streets. I much prefer self charging hybrids and would ban the sale of any car not at least MHEV. Scratch that last comment, I would just set a minimum fuel economy and raise it each year, let the manufacturers reach it any way they chose.


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## Ozi (11 Jan 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> I read something recently by someone who had owned an EV for a few years, and this is exactly what he did. He would make a short trip, come home, and plug the car in to recharge it. He now says this cycling the battery between, say, 100% and 80% was the wrong thing to do; it would have been better for the battery to let the charge drop lower before recharging it. Because he did not do that the maximum battery capacity had dropped considerably.
> I don't know if more modern batteries would suffer from the same issue, but it could be worth checking the optimal recharge strategy.


Better than they used to be but the problem still exsists


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## Ozi (11 Jan 2022)

hairy said:


> Sitting in a moving Caterham next to an artic I can assure you it is


Always wanted a 7, built a Dutton Phaeton as that was what my budget ran to. Fondly remember being blown onto the hard shoulder by passing lorries.


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## Jameshow (11 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> Can I say I don't like the PHEV concept, some are better than others but they do have one thing going for them. They have a smaller IC engine than the IC only equivalent as to accelerate they use both motors. The advantage of this is that the IC motor spends more of it's working life running at a higher proportion of it's maximum output where it operates more efficiently and in stop start traffic when battery power permits they run electric greatly reducing the emissions on city streets. I much prefer self charging hybrids and would ban the sale of any car not at least MHEV. Scratch that last comment, I would just set a minimum fuel economy and raise it each year, let the manufacturers reach it any way they chose.


Why do you prefer self charging hybrids? 

All they do is increase your mpg somewhat. 

At least with a phev you can plug it in and drive say 30miles on electric alone? 

Cheers James


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## Cabinetman (11 Jan 2022)

I have a question, if you think about an old-fashioned racing cycle with a 5 speed derailleur block on the back wheel. And compare it to an electric vehicle (Which normally doesn’t have a gearbox it’s just a direct drive) the electric vehicle is always in fifth gear, on a bicycle this is difficult to start off from standing start with, and needs quite a lot of energy to get going. Wouldn’t it be more efficient to have gears on an electric vehicle? A car is quite a heavy lump to get moving particularly uphill. And yes I know they work perfectly well without a gearbox just thinking if it would help extend the range. Ian


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## Ozi (11 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Why do you prefer self charging hybrids?
> 
> All they do is increase your mpg somewhat.
> 
> ...


True but you're carrying both transmissions around all the time. Also as a safety (crash test) engineer they are difficult to package and increase the weight range on platforms while reducing crush stroke making my job harder, don't start me on big wheels. Self charging gives you the other benefits of PHEV, the batteries and motors are much lighter and real world battery life and usage are optimized, while many PHEV users hardly ever charge the batteries odd as that sounds when you look at how much they pay for the system, I'm not saying they are bad but to me self charging is a better compromise while full electric evolves.


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## Ozi (11 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> I have a question, if you think about an old-fashioned racing cycle with a 5 speed derailleur block on the back wheel. And compare it to an electric vehicle (Which normally doesn’t have a gearbox it’s just a direct drive) the electric vehicle is always in fifth gear, on a bicycle this is difficult to start off from standing start with, and needs quite a lot of energy to get going. Wouldn’t it be more efficient to have gears on an electric vehicle? A car is quite a heavy lump to get moving particularly uphill. And yes I know they work perfectly well without a gearbox just thinking if it would help extend the range. Ian


The torque and efficiency curves for an electric motor are very flat by comparison to an IC engine, plus even the best gearbox has losses and weight


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## Doris (11 Jan 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> I read something recently by someone who had owned an EV for a few years, and this is exactly what he did. He would make a short trip, come home, and plug the car in to recharge it. He now says this cycling the battery between, say, 100% and 80% was the wrong thing to do; it would have been better for the battery to let the charge drop lower before recharging it. Because he did not do that the maximum battery capacity had dropped considerably.



I asked my mechanic why my battery at best is only 80% charged and if there may be a fault with the batteries. He said that the power management system makes sure that the battery is never fully charged in order to preserve its lifespan. The battery tends to discharge as much energy as it can if say I drive down a hill or down an A road by powering the car with both petrol and the electric motor. 

I think if you asked the average driver to decide on how to manage the life of their battery it may not last as long....


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## Spectric (11 Jan 2022)

Cabinetman said:


> Wouldn’t it be more efficient to have gears on an electric vehicle?


An electric motor can produce max power from stationary to rated speed, an ICE has a torque curve that has to be matched to demand using a gearbox.


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## Richard_C (11 Jan 2022)

The Chinese MG EV for £20k (Cecil Kimber might approve, he was all about affordability) mentioned above looked like a good answer for some needs. Had a quick look, shade under £30K now for basic one, that's a big price hike in less than 2 years. Nevertheless if we can have affordable, if slightly basic, EVs it will tempt many including me to change at least one family car. 

Here's a thought: buy 2 budget EVs and a car trailer. One each (assuming a couple who each want their own car at home) in normal use but for long trips put EV2 on the trailer, drag it behind EV1, 250 miles into trip swap them. 500 mile range and 2 cars when you need them, all for less than a long range Tesla


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## Jameshow (11 Jan 2022)

20k if brought nearly new...

When towing the range drops like brick... You wouldn't save much, just increased hassle!


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## Richard_C (11 Jan 2022)

Ah, good way to buy cars, that's what I have done in recent years. Keep for 5 years or so, depreciation well controlled.

I suspect pre owned EVs are pretty rare now.


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## GarF (11 Jan 2022)

I'd like to know how the power grid, locally, would cope if everyone on my street decided to go electric. I find it hard to believe that the substation wouldn't melt if everyone wanted a full recharge at 6.30pm.


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## Jameshow (11 Jan 2022)

If 30m people use electric cars at 8000miles per year AVG using 2800kwh (edf website) does that mean we will use 84,000,000,000 KW of electricity which is 84GW???

Maximum we have ever used is 64gw and now sits at 42gw?

Not to mention gshp /ashp we are meant to be changing too....


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## Terry - Somerset (11 Jan 2022)

Current distribution infrastructure and generation capacity would be inadequate to cope with a demand spike which assumes all cars are EV and being charged simultaneously - however:

it will be two decades before substantially all private cars are EV - time for capacity to evolve to meet demand.
a fully charged EV with a 60kWH battery will run for 180-240 miles - about average mileage. So a full charge once a week, or part charge two/three times a week is more likely.
EVs will be internet enabled and I suspect variable pricing whilst charging will be introduced. This will incentivise charging outside peak periods. 
So the probability of entire streets deciding to charge all cars at the same time on a single evening is implausible. If they did - power cut!


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## Richard_C (11 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> When towing the range drops like brick... You wouldn't save much, just increased hassle!



Yes I know, it wasn't a serious suggestion. Maybe modular battery packs, plug an extra one in for long trips... who knows. I expect the technology and useability to evolve pretty quickly in the next few years.


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## John on the Wirral (12 Jan 2022)

Richard_C said:


> Some good points, and to be clear I'm not anti EV just concerned and confused about charging on long trips. Maybe there needs to be a bit more strategic thinking about wider aspects of the way we live and our expectations.
> 
> First up - tax and insurance. Some way of replacing the tax take from petrol and diesel is inevitable, so the lower running costs argument for EVs is only temporary. I sometimes think it would be bettter to tax use (which petrol tax does already indirectly) rather than the vehicle. That way, some of us might run a small local EV and a bigger long range car until EV infrastructure gets better. Same with insurance. If I own 2 cars I pay twice but only use one at once. Tax and insure me, not the vehicle.
> 
> ...


Some time ago I seem to remember that the Government gave a 1.5 million grant to a midlands university to develop numberplate recognition with a view,in my opinion,to taxing us retrospectively for use of the roads,going into cities,whether you are diesel/petrol/ev etc. A recent trial (What Car?) showed that the cost of travelling from John'o'Groats to Land's End cost the same as in an IC vehicle.


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## Skydivermel (12 Jan 2022)

Here's an example. I've had an EV for 14 months. Range is stated as 278 miles. Real world I get circa 250. I charge overnight between 00:30 & 04:30 which costs 5p per kH. Recently drove from North Essex to Southampton docks which is 140 miles, starting with 88% charge, and had 40% charge left on arrival. 90% of the journey was motorway and my average speed was 68mph. I stopped at Winchester services on the way back with 31% charge, plugged into a rapid charger and had a 30min break. Charger pumped the car back up to 80% and on arrival home had 35% charge. So one charge for a round trip of 280 miles and still had enough charge for a daily runaround the next day. I always let the battery go down to around 25% before an overnight charge on my 7kW home charger, and rarely charge to 100% always around 80%. Manual suggests every 2-3 months to charge to 100% from around 20% to protect the battery. Once you get into the groove with an EV it's very easy and no different to an ICE.


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## Jameshow (12 Jan 2022)

Skydivermel said:


> Here's an example. I've had an EV for 14 months. Range is stated as 278 miles. Real world I get circa 250. I charge overnight between 00:30 & 04:30 which costs 5p per kH. Recently drove from North Essex to Southampton docks which is 140 miles, starting with 88% charge, and had 40% charge left on arrival. 90% of the journey was motorway and my average speed was 68mph. I stopped at Winchester services on the way back with 31% charge, plugged into a rapid charger and had a 30min break. Charger pumped the car back up to 80% and on arrival home had 35% charge. So one charge for a round trip of 280 miles and still had enough charge for a daily runaround the next day. I always let the battery go down to around 25% before an overnight charge on my 7kW home charger, and rarely charge to 100% always around 80%. Manual suggests every 2-3 months to charge to 100% from around 20% to protect the battery. Once you get into the groove with an EV it's very easy and no different to an ICE.


How does an EV sound at 70mph any quieter than a quality car?


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## Martin_S (12 Jan 2022)

When talking about the national grid and the need for increased capacity - remember that we peak between 4 & 11pm each day and that is the capacity the grid needs to have available (call it 32-35gW). Between 2 and 6am the demand drops to less than half that - so you can charge an awful lot of cars without any increase in capacity as long as they have 'time of day' controlled charging.

And an earlier post asked about why EV's don't have gearboxes. When I drive normally, the motor pulls 15-20amps from the battery. My house has a 100amp fuse (many only have a 60amp), above that the house fuse blows. By comparison, when I floor the fast pedal in my little Chinese EV, it pulls 175 amps without problem - imagine a petrol engine able to burn 8-10x as much fuel (so instead of 1,000 revs it could jump to 10,000 revs without problem) - I know some do, but it is much cheaper to add a gearbox to achieve the same effect as you get without one on an EV.


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## Geoff_S (12 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> How does an EV sound at 70mph any quieter than a quality car?


Depends what EV you’re driving and what quality car you’re comparing it to I guess.


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## Ozi (12 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> If 30m people use electric cars at 8000miles per year AVG using 2800kwh (edf website) does that mean we will use 84,000,000,000 KW of electricity which is 84GW???
> 
> Maximum we have ever used is 64gw and now sits at 42gw?
> 
> Not to mention gshp /ashp we are meant to be changing too....


Exactly why we need small light weight vehicles for people like myself to make short solo journeys to and from work, I don't need to lug the other 4 empty seats around using more than my fair share of available power in the process


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## TRITON (13 Jan 2022)

This is new technology remember so innovations are probably still to be made. Might be the idea to liken this to the earliest cars, Henry Ford and the like. They got better and better and diversified into vehicles more suited to individual needs. Early days I feel.


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## Skydivermel (13 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> How does an EV sound at 70mph any quieter than a quality car?


I'd say quieter than an ICE


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## Spectric (13 Jan 2022)

Your best option for running an EV is to use a trailer but with a diesel generator in it so you have many more miles available depending on the size of the genny. 
Another idea would be to use large diesel trucks that could tow a long string of EV's on major routes so none of them use their own batteries which can be saved once off the major road and into more urban areas.


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## clogs (13 Jan 2022)

spectric,
they said just the same about the railways,
getting trucks off the main roads/motorways to ease congestion....
never happen I'm afraid.....I know ur joking......
I'd like a cheapo 2 seat ev just for local trips shopping etc....say 50mile round trip....
but the vehicle should cost a good bit less than 10,000.....
if they were 5 grand a lot would be bought overnight....I'd certainly have one......
on one proviso, that the manufacturers garantee the electronics for 100,000miles....
If they are only just better than the carp ICE systems used now there will be an awful lot going for scrap.....and that aint green.....
which is why I still drive my 1.9TD Transporter....no electronics.....
have tried to buy newer more efficient vehicles but the electronic control systems give so much trouble and kills them in the end.....
ps I cant afford any vehicle costing 30 or 40grand wether it be an ICE or EV....
the other thing that scares me driving a 2 seat micro car EV is all the ircs in the bigger cars killing me in a crash....

Plus,
I'd def think longer/stronger to going comp off grid, luckily as I have the room so the gov can stuff their new expected taxes for charging EV's....I'd be happy with a 13amp plug to do it slowly....
that or lead line my garage so they cant see it....along with my tin foil hat for sanity....hahaha.....

It's just a shame the world is run by knee jerk's drunks at a party or dementia suffering old fools......the Chinese will inherit the world at this rate.....nuff said....


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## D_W (13 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> How does an EV sound at 70mph any quieter than a quality car?



This seems like something that could be measured based on actual numbers vs. hypothetical. Spouse and I have a $35k primary car. BIL has a tesla 3. The 3 is definitely quieter at speed despite being a little smaller. We also have a similar sized ICE car (compact, but not subcompact size) that's closer in physical footprint to the 3 and the 3 is a lot quieter (but twice as expensive). 

Brings up the question of comparison - if a model 3 in regular trim is about 40k, what do you compare it to of that size? I would speculate since it's probably going to save about 5k in fuel costs, then a 35K large compact/small mid car. What's a good choice? I don't know - there's not a whole lot left in that price range in the US in cars.


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## Geoff_S (13 Jan 2022)

TRITON said:


> This is new technology remember so innovations are probably still to be made. Might be the idea to liken this to the earliest cars, Henry Ford and the like. They got better and better and diversified into vehicles more suited to individual needs. Early days I feel.


Yes, it only started around 1830 (the year, not the time)

They'll get there eventually.


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## Sporky McGuffin (13 Jan 2022)

Jameshow said:


> If 30m people use electric cars at 8000miles per year AVG using 2800kwh (edf website) does that mean we will use 84,000,000,000 KW of electricity which is 84GW???
> 
> Maximum we have ever used is 64gw and now sits at 42gw?



I might be wrong, but are you mixing units? 

Total consumption by the EVs will be (based on your sums) 84GWh.

Current generation capacity is 75.8GW (from Wikipedia) so we could deliver all the power needed for those EVs' annual use in just over an hour (if we turned everything off, which I know is a silly idea). Wikipedia says the total power generated in the UK in 2017 was 325GWh. So it would be a significant increase, but not beyond the grid's ability to supply.


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## Ozi (13 Jan 2022)

Sporky McGuffin said:


> I might be wrong, but are you mixing units?
> 
> Total consumption by the EVs will be (based on your sums) 84GWh.
> 
> Current generation capacity is 75.8GW (from Wikipedia) so we could deliver all the power needed for those EVs' annual use in just over an hour (if we turned everything off, which I know is a silly idea). Wikipedia says the total power generated in the UK in 2017 was 325GWh. So it would be a significant increase, but not beyond the grid's ability to supply.








From MyGridGB - honest I don't have shares in the site. 

My personal feeling is the less we use the less mess we have to clear up. 24 % of UK CO2 came from road transport (2019) and 15.4 from electricity generation. Petrol cars are around 30% efficient very approximately a gas fired power station about 60% with CHP possibly up to 90%. Most of the gas we buy from abroad, that's going well just now. 

The less electricity we use the better for our economy as well as environment, so rather than lugging 4 empty seats to work with me I want a small practical single seater that I charge at home no more than 3 times a week, ideally with a smart charger that optimizes when I draw power and the life of my batteries. This is now very nearly possible, I wouldn't have said that 2 years ago. I'm privileged to have a driveway and a second car, I expect to be taxed accordingly. 

Does it offend anyone else that England imports so much of it's power, we live on a windy island


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## porker (13 Jan 2022)

30M people multiplied by 2800kWh is 84,000 GWh. This will alter your calculations somewhat!


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## Droogs (13 Jan 2022)

I'm not offended in the least @Ozi esp as so much of it actually comes from up here


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## Sporky McGuffin (13 Jan 2022)

porker said:


> 30M people multiplied by 2800kWh is 84,000 GWh. This will alter your calculations somewhat!


What's three orders of magnitude between friends? 

I think that makes it about 50 days at full tilt.


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## Sachakins (15 Jan 2022)

Interesting real life ev woes


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## Jones (15 Jan 2022)

Richard_C said:


> I've been thinking "what if" for a couple of years now - when I travel I actively think "what if I was doing this in an all electric car?" I would really like to embrace the future and go all electric when the current cars expire. I have confidence in the cars - not Tesla because of cost and anything that Elton Musk can send over the air software upgrades to is perhaps to be avoided - but I don't have any confidence in the charging network.
> 
> We live in a village with 1 outward bus a day (7.34 am) so we have 2 conventional IC engine cars, both a few years old but neither needing to be replaced soon. We can fill up either in any filling station in the UK or Europe. The nozzles fit. It takes 10 minutes max including paying. We can pay by any credit or debit card or cash. I don't need to have a functioning smart phone or phone signal.
> 
> ...


An ev isn't the best answer for all journeys but as you have two cars one could be an ev. I know which one you'd choose to use most.


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## NikNak (16 Jan 2022)

Ozi said:


> Does it offend anyone else that England imports so much of it's power, we live on a windy island


As an island surrounded by water why is there not more tidal power. The tides are guaranteed, wind isn't.


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## shed9 (16 Jan 2022)

NikNak said:


> As an island surrounded by water why is there not more tidal power. The tides are guaranteed, wind isn't.


That is already underway with multiple projects around the UK however England seem to be lacking. 

Out of interest; Wales is a net exporter of the electricity it generates with around 58% going over the border to England. Scotland is in a similar situation exporting around 42%. Wales and Scotland have used renewables to ramp up this position and are further investing heavily into tidal. England within the context of Great Britain is by far the biggest user of electricity (around >80%) but you could argue that Great Britain isn't a signifiant importer as generation is shared within those territories. On the other hand, from an individual country (i.e. principality) perspective it could appear skewed as the biggest CO2 emitter is a power plant in Pembrokeshire. 

Personally it's all academic as the tipping point has been reached and we are truly done anyhow. Happy Sunday.


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## Ozi (16 Jan 2022)

Sachakins said:


> Interesting real life ev woes



Maybe I should have read the instructions!


NikNak said:


> As an island surrounded by water why is there not more tidal power. The tides are guaranteed, wind isn't.


Tidal power has it's own issues, personally I think it's suffering from under funding and deliberate miss costing but taking a large amount of energy out of the sea has consequences, get the hydrodynamics wrong and you can end up with a constant need to dredge to keep the system running. In some areas you need to sort out the poor levels of sewage treatment - not reasons to give up on a very reliable power source. At small scale wave energy used as protection to eroding coasts has potential to fix two issues at the same time. I'm certain it will be an increasing part of the mix, we do seem to love putting all our eggs in the first basket to come along.

We are close to the maximum economic capacity with wind generation. Hence the need for storage, it's rarely calm for more than two weeks. At present we store about 1% of the power we generate and pay others to take the rest off our hands. Simple equation Increased storage capacity equals an increase in maximum economic renewable generating capacity when it is windy / sunny / the tide is coming in or out etc. It also smooths out peaks in demand reducing the need for rapid response generation which is currently mainly gas generated.


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## Spectric (16 Jan 2022)

Oh that video does bring back some horrendous memories of working with domestic electric's and how in most cases you would come across bodges that had been done by a builder, the home owner or a kitchen/bathroom fitter and all totaly oblivious. As for EV's they had put themselves into a corner by advertising on their van that they did EV charging points, so they really needed to demonstrate support but as electricians should have known better.

The thing I noticed was how the windscreen demister was really poor, and once you travel to a job, do a days work then you may have to sit around at some charging point on the way home which is not good.


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## Sporky McGuffin (16 Jan 2022)

They came across as a bt dim (van-wise). They could have had the heated windscreen on the one they bought, or used the cabin pre-heat with it still plugged in. 

And they did buy the lowest range electric van on sale...


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## hairy (16 Jan 2022)

If cross channel relations were a bit better I would think when the UK started building lots of turbines but no storage for their output the idea may have been for gas storage and supply from over the water in exchange for wind power when they're turning in the UK. Since future carbon costs will become more of a thing this could have benefited the UK quite well I would think? In the same way Tesla make lots of money selling carbon credits they have no use for.

A friend has a PHEV, small battery for short local runs such as to the station for work and school runs. Small battery means it can sensibly make use of a 13amp plug, engine means it can take them as far as they want on trips without worry but most weeks the engine doesn't go on, minimal CO2 at source.

If North Sea turbines can make hydrogen at the mast which then gets piped to shore, "green" hydrogen rather than "blue", we would be well placed for that too perhaps.

I wonder where the minimal car approach will take us? No caravans, no family camping really, no space for a dog, no space for kids friends? The Suzuki Cappuccino was supposed to be a good little thing with a tiny wizz bang turbo engine for two person fun. a limit of 500cc and 50mph would be fine for two people, maybe with a group share people carrier which of course is not a bus cos it would go where you want to when you want to with what you want to.


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## Terry - Somerset (16 Jan 2022)

The minimal car really starts to work either as a second vehicle in the household, or when they can be delivered for use on demand.

A minimal car needs to be defined - say: max speed of 50-60mph, max weight of 300kg, space for 2+ a few shopping bags, range ~30-50 miles. Small low weight means small batteries which means 13amp charging generally feasible.

To encourage adoption - priority or free car parking, no tax, possibly driven by 16+ (as mopeds etc), no VAT on purchase, use bus lanes etc.

As a second vehicle this could be attractive to a lot of city and town dwellers - covers most shopping, school run, short or moderate commutes, local socialactivitty etc.

Milton Keynes are also trialling an app based system where a remotely driven small car is delivered, you drive to destination, remote control drives it to next user (or recharge station). This may turn out to be the future for many.


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## alz (17 Jan 2022)

I am surprised more use is not made of hydro power in this country. My father worked with the North of Scotland Hydro Electric Board, and recalled the enduring success of dams built in Scotland to generate power just after WW2. 
He also had a set of 1890's bound volumes of Work, An Illustrated Weekly for Mechanics, which featured everything from woodwork to early electric systems. Included were details of small-scale hydro turbines quite widely used by Victorian landowners.


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## D_W (17 Jan 2022)

alz said:


> I am surprised more use is not made of hydro power in this country. My father worked with the North of Scotland Hydro Electric Board, and recalled the enduring success of dams built in Scotland to generate power just after WW2.
> He also had a set of 1890's bound volumes of Work, An Illustrated Weekly for Mechanics, which featured everything from woodwork to early electric systems. Included were details of small-scale hydro turbines quite widely used by Victorian landowners.



I recall reading the account of someone who had a small scale turbine installed next to an old mill. It was a private generation station selling power back to the utilities and generating something like 350kw (to you and me, this is an enormous amount of power - to the utility, I guess it's a nuisance). 

It's too long ago now for me to remember all of the details other than them saying that it was less profitable than people would guess due to the fact that it seemed like most regulators and utilities weren't really interested in the idea of small independent generators. This may sound like a conspiracy thing, but I think it's more practical than that. The regulation and compliance that goes along with utilities in the US makes for a huge number of man hours to go through the red tape. 

Just as the ag department talks about wanting family farms to be enduring, they enact one thing after another in terms of rules that show what they'd really like is a smaller pool of farmers that's easier to push around and monitor. Why would a smaller farmer be harder to push around? The answer to that is simple - you implement rules, the small guy drags his feet and fights. If 5% of the group does that, it's a huge drag. If you have 1 large producer instead of 25 small ones, they have the capitalization and size to comply and then maybe lobby or something else later.


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## PhilipL (18 Jan 2022)

alz said:


> I am surprised more use is not made of hydro power in this country. My father worked with the North of Scotland Hydro Electric Board, and recalled the enduring success of dams built in Scotland to generate power just after WW2.
> He also had a set of 1890's bound volumes of Work, An Illustrated Weekly for Mechanics, which featured everything from woodwork to early electric systems. Included were details of small-scale hydro turbines quite widely used by Victorian landowners.



It blocks rivers, changes downstream environment through slower movement of debris etc., blocks fish, blocks canoeists. I think I saw a few days ago an old dam being removed from some Scandinavian country, and there are companies which will remove them for you - Home - Dam Removal Europe


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## Droogs (10 Feb 2022)

Can't wait to go to work in this


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## Ozi (10 Feb 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The minimal car really starts to work either as a second vehicle in the household, or when they can be delivered for use on demand.
> 
> A minimal car needs to be defined - say: max speed of 50-60mph, max weight of 300kg, space for 2+ a few shopping bags, range ~30-50 miles. Small low weight means small batteries which means 13amp charging generally feasible.
> 
> ...


Agreed at present most useful as a second car, I still think the way forward is a hire contract, for me most of the time I would want the smallest cheapest, lightest vehicle going just to get me 20 miles each way to work or as tonight take my daughter to Scouts and back and do the odd small shop. It would need to be quick enough not to be a liability on a duel carriageway say 60 mph. I want batteries I can lift out, two trips is fine if it gets me 100 mile range so I only do it twice a week and have the option to charge a spare set indoors slowly on cheap rate power if I'm not using a charge point. BUT sometimes I want a 4/5 seat car like the one I drive now with a range over 200 miles even with the lights on and the heater running, very occasionally I want a van or a pick-up. I think there are a lot of people in my position, if we all drove micro cars there would be a market for people to hire the other vehicles to us as needed either as direct swaps on the same contract or as at present the way I sometimes hire a van. Volume is the key, the car I started this thread with is a disappointing $16,000 built in high volume I could see that being halved. Sort out the power generation and storage issues, put solar panels on warehouses before green fields etc and we are there - simples! .....or not.


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## John on the Wirral (11 Feb 2022)

The problem with fully electric cars is that makers seem to concentrating on the fantastic efficiency of the electric motor so building cars that make use of this efficiency - 0 to 60 in no time etc. and bigger family cars. Only the French seem to be looking at the massive potential market of shopper cars. However,their efforts tend to quad bikes with a lid on that don't have to comply with the strict EU regs on safety so they are nt the answer. Dacia are looking at the issue and many more will follow in the next couple of years I think -hope!
John on the Wirral


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## Terry - Somerset (11 Feb 2022)

The strategy of electric car makers may be the same as ICE car makers - more gizmos, better performance, visible status cues sell cars. 

Price seems to be less of a barrier - if a buyer can afford a new car costing (say) £10k+ they are unlikely to be deterred by an extra £10-30 per month for a lease or PCP deal.

The only manufacturer I can immediately think of that seeks to make a virtue out of cheap, basic, devoid of frills is Dacia. It is debatable whether they will continue as an economy brand - their cheap "bottom of the range" models are lower volume than their mid and upper range variants.

Change may only happen with legislation - eg: EVs with (say) a maximum weight of 500kg, a top speed below 60 mph, four wheels, etc able to be driven by 16 year olds and in city centres. Different safety standards - better than bikes and scooters but less than full size cars.


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## Woody2Shoes (11 Feb 2022)

PhilipL said:


> It blocks rivers, changes downstream environment through slower movement of debris etc., blocks fish, blocks canoeists. I think I saw a few days ago an old dam being removed from some Scandinavian country, and there are companies which will remove them for you - Home - Dam Removal Europe


The point is that in the UK, we've run out of suitable geography for hydro. Much of our existing hydro is used for energy storage - 'pumped hydro'.

Until we have a few more suitable mountain ranges, perhaps in a few more million years, we can't expect any more exploitable hydro resources in the UK. Tidal (and wind) resources, on the other hand, are world-class, and are crying out for further investment.

There are several mediaeval tide mills along the south coast of England - exploiting the tides is nothing new!


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## Woody2Shoes (11 Feb 2022)

Do not underestimate the Chinese. They are already making cheap electric cars in large volumes:



Anyone who underestimates Elon Musk is brave (aka foolish), anyone who underestimates the Chinese is mental:


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## doctor Bob (11 Feb 2022)

Fusion by 2050, better much improved solar technology. I think power will be fine for the future, but as for all the rubbish and pollution we produce I think we are cabbaged


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## doctor Bob (11 Feb 2022)

Interesting thing on the TV last night.
All the people who demonstrated about Colston in Bristol, 99% would carry a smart phone. So are they sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to slave labour mining lithium, making chips etc as it really isn't quite so convenient to throw your phones into Bristol dock as a protest to slavery. Yet modern day slavery is far more important as we could actually save lives, rather than mourn ones already lost.


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## Droogs (11 Feb 2022)

The affordable good value cars are coming within the next 12 months. The Chinese companies that are launching in europe see well spec'd but not over spec'd good value mass sales as the way to go. This will build a strong market share for them and in 5 - 10 years when people want to renew they will have the loyalty to stay with the maker they have and probably upgrade and pay far more then


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## fred55 (11 Feb 2022)

Far too much thought going on here ! its about time for a little self indulgence - my car developed a fault which would cost more to repair than it was worth so needed a replacement only condition I pull a caravan - had a look at the hybrids - plug ins - mild hybrids - phevs - Evs - fast charges etc etc etc non of these pretend Scalextric could pull any thing worth while So to hell with logic and going the way government is wanting me to go - I've always wanted a Toyota Landcrusier So got one - its too big, only 30mpg, costly to buy, but I don't do many miles anyway and it can pull a caravan So after 60yrs of lusting its MINE !. At last a car to climb into not fall down on I look down on the roofs of most cars and feel superior (in my head anyway). As for electric cars I'll have one put in the boot for the grandkids to play with Ha Ha as for the sensible electric generation you don't think the government going to let you have cheap transport they will have thought of a Tax for you we just don't know about it yet !


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## Spectric (11 Feb 2022)

fred55 said:


> non of these pretend Scalextric could pull any thing worth while


Was this down to lack of power or just that with towing the potential range drops by 80%? If just the range then you have the caravan, take a generator and now just stop and re-charge but make the stops part of your holiday.

I think I have just solved the issue for the travelling community if this new law comes into force where they can no longer park up, all they need is electric vehicles and then they can park up for a while with the excuse they are just charging there vehicles whilst on holiday, not actually living there.


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## Martin_S (11 Feb 2022)

A Tesla Model X (just for example) can tow up to 5,000 pounds (call it 2 metric tons). Others can do similar. @fred55 - Glad you like your Landcruiser, drove around Kenya in one 20 years ago and they are really built for that sort of use - but really heavy duty old technology back then. Plus in 10 years time, if you care, it will be impossible to sell as no one will want a smelly old diesel anymore. But... for the next 5 years, you probably made the best choice for the money available.


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## Trainee neophyte (11 Feb 2022)

I'm rather taken with one of these: 





__





Outlander PHEV | Mitsubishi Motors UK







mitsubishi-motors.co.uk





Can't afford it, but it would probably suit me. Will wait for a few years and see what the second hand market thinks.


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## harryc (11 Feb 2022)

Just ordered a new Peugeot e 208 for the missus and quite looking forward to its arrival.
Need to sort out a EV charger but not sure i will manage it before the govt grant comes to an end - so much for the Torys green credentials


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## Jameshow (11 Feb 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I'm rather taken with one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good cars my brother had one. 
Old ones are about £8k I think.


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## Martin_S (11 Feb 2022)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I'm rather taken with one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I always wanted one but before I got around to it, I got my 1st true EV. Glad I did - an EV designed as an EV as opposed to an ICE / EV conversion jobby is so much better.


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## Lons (11 Feb 2022)

Spectric said:


> Was this down to lack of power or just that with towing the potential range drops by 80%? If just the range then you have the caravan, take a generator and now just stop and re-charge but make the stops part of your holiday.
> 
> I think I have just solved the issue for the travelling community if this new law comes into force where they can no longer park up, all they need is electric vehicles and then they can park up for a while with the excuse they are just charging there vehicles whilst on holiday, not actually living there.



The quoted 2250 kg towing capacity is almost the kerbside weight of the car and not realistic, not a great combination and pulling its' own weight in the guise of a large slab fronted caravan wouldn't give me much confidence of its' range. No fast charge either using a generator and you would have to carry petrol in a can for that plus extra space and weigh penalty so a hell of a lot of stops getting to your holiday destination and back. Anyone fancy a trip from the south to Scotland with multiple lengthy stops? BTW the noseweight limit is only 90 kg which is lower than most cars and the lighter the nose generally the less stable the outfit even with clever towing assist software.

I think the travellers would just hitch up half a dozen horses to their caravans Roy.


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## fred55 (14 Feb 2022)

Martin_S said:


> A Tesla Model X (just for example) can tow up to 5,000 pounds (call it 2 metric tons). Others can do similar. @fred55 - Glad you like your Landcruiser, drove around Kenya in one 20 years ago and they are really built for that sort of use - but really heavy duty old technology back then. Plus in 10 years time, if you care, it will be impossible to sell as no one will want a smelly old diesel anymore. But... for the next 5 years, you probably made the best choice for the money available.


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## fred55 (14 Feb 2022)

5 Years no no Lons, I'm going to sell it in 10yrs time for a profit , to what-ever war, crisis, rebel or insurgence is going on in the world. there's always a demand for big Toyota there; at the moment if you want to stop the crisis in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Scotland or where ever I suggest attack Toyota Headquarters - theres never any uprising or wars without Big Toyotas being involve; it wouldn't be the same with a GeeWizz or Prius. My solution to World peace - Blow up Toyota Head Quarters ! who agrees with me


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## Lons (14 Feb 2022)

fred55 said:


> 5 Years no no Lons, I'm going to sell it in 10yrs time for a profit , to what-ever war, crisis, rebel or insurgence is going on in the world. there's always a demand for big Toyota there; at the moment if you want to stop the crisis in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Scotland or where ever I suggest attack Toyota Headquarters - theres never any uprising or wars without Big Toyotas being involve; it wouldn't be the same with a GeeWizz or Prius. My solution to World peace - Blow up Toyota Head Quarters ! who agrees with me


 Whatever , I have no doubt you'll find a buyer, wasn't it a Toyota that Top gear stuck on the top of a building and demolished it then drowned it in the sea between tides and still got it started?
I'm hanging on to my diesel GLC for a while yet as they's absolutely nothing out there I'd want to replace it with....well maybe an Aston Martin. 
Out friends sold their old car in 2014 that had been in the family since 1964 and it's just come back up for sale at rather a lot more than they got for it.








For Sale: Gordon-Keeble GT


Colour: Blue, Mileage: 54,124 mls, Power: 221/300 kw/hp, Body style: Coupe, Series: , Seller: Graeme Hunt Ltd – www.classic-trader.com




www.classic-trader.com


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## Jameshow (14 Feb 2022)

Lons said:


> Whatever , I have no doubt you'll find a buyer, wasn't it a Toyota that Top gear stuck on the top of a building and demolished it then drowned it in the sea between tides and still got it started?
> I'm hanging on to my diesel GLC for a while yet as they's absolutely nothing out there I'd want to replace it with....well maybe an Aston Martin.
> Out friends sold their old car in 2014 that had been in the family since 1964 and it's just come back up for sale at rather a lot more than they got for it.
> 
> ...


How do they compare to a Bristol 410??


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## Lons (14 Feb 2022)

I don't know James I never saw the car only photos and the guy died on Christmas day 2020, it was his dad who bought the car originally and tbh I'd never heard of Gorden Keeble until they told me. Why the badge is a turtle is strange, I would have thought it would be something that portrays speed. Not my kind of car but as an investment it's a different story.


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## Jameshow (14 Feb 2022)

Lons said:


> I don't know James I never saw the car only photos and the guy died on Christmas day 2020, it was his dad who bought the car originally and tbh I'd never heard of Gorden Keeble until they told me. Why the badge is a turtle is strange, I would have thought it would be something that portrays speed. Not my kind of car but as an investment it's a different story.


Nice car from what I've just read! 
Much like a Bristol 410 - big GT...


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## Droogs (5 Mar 2022)

Just found this rather amousing story

https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv...gers-hacked-tell-users-putin-is-a-richardhead


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## woodieallen (5 Mar 2022)

Lons said:


> The quoted 2250 kg towing capacity is almost the kerbside weight of the car and not realistic, not a great combination and pulling its' own weight in the guise of a large slab fronted caravan wouldn't give me much confidence of its' range. No fast charge either using a generator and you would have to carry petrol in a can for that plus extra space and weigh penalty so a hell of a lot of stops getting to your holiday destination and back. Anyone fancy a trip from the south to Scotland with multiple lengthy stops? BTW the noseweight limit is only 90 kg which is lower than most cars and the lighter the nose generally the less stable the outfit even with clever towing assist software.
> 
> I think the travellers would just hitch up half a dozen horses to their caravans Roy.


Good post.

Good video on YouTube with a Skoda towing a caravan. Range down by 50%.


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## Lons (5 Mar 2022)

woodieallen said:


> Good post.
> 
> Good video on YouTube with a Skoda towing a caravan. Range down by 50%.


If it's the same video I saw just a few days ago the "caravan" it was towing was tiny, more a bed on wheels than a caravan and not an option for anyone with a family. That video was measured laps around a track at steady 60mph, it was the large battery extended version with a quoted range of 330 miles but even solo with all the air con and other electrics turned off the real world range was a lot lower than that so would be even worse on a mortorway and in traffic.


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## Droogs (27 Mar 2022)

An interesting new series has just started with Andrew Ditton on his tube channel. he has just released a video of his new touring set up which is a Kia EV6 and a Compass S30 caravan


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## NikNak (3 Apr 2022)

For Sale: Gordon-Keeble GT


Colour: Blue, Mileage: 54,124 mls, Power: 221/300 kw/hp, Body style: Coupe, Series: , Seller: Graeme Hunt Ltd – www.classic-trader.com




www.classic-trader.com





The GK is another bit of English rarity(?)

Only ever 99 built. The final 100th was built from 'spare parts' before the company finally collapsed. I got to ride in no100 when they all left Eastleigh airport and went in 'convoy' to the Beaulieu Motor Museum back in 2014




my dads the one on the right being interviewed 





__





Past events






www.gordonkeeble.org.uk


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## clogs (3 Apr 2022)

out of interest there are now getting quite a few 3 n 4 wheel mini/micro EV cars here....
but only bought by the foreigners.....
the locals still charge around in their "D" pick-ups.....
dont fancy being wiped out with an overloaded Hi Lux on some back road....
Still gonna keep my T4.....thanks......


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## Droogs (3 Apr 2022)

@clogs would have thought you more of a T72 man myself


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## Lons (3 Apr 2022)

Thanks for posting the videos NikNak. Ours friends car is in the video near the end.


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## Fergie 307 (4 Apr 2022)

Droogs said:


> Just found this rather amousing story
> 
> https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv...gers-hacked-tell-users-putin-is-a-richardhead


Brilliant. Presumably the chargers will now be uprooted and sent to the Gulag for fifteen years, or have their leads tied behind their backs and shot !


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## Sirenity (30 Jun 2022)

I’ve been driving 100% Ev for 5 years now and following the industry closely for 10. It’s sooo refreshing to see a thread that’s not polarised and an actual discussion! This is some bits to hopefully draw together the worries and give info on them, fully researched evidence base for all available if anyone would like it. I’ll put my personal experience in another reply in case anyone is interested as this is already going to be long. 
TL/DR: EVs are way cheaper to run, can now be bought cheaply, are much more durable than was first thought. Gas Manufacturers joined fossil fuel companies and are desperately using the Tobacco industry playbook to delay EV uptake. The reason is obvious as soon as you start driving an EV, the gas car manufacturers make their money from maintenance. They know they are losing their cash cow as EV maintenance is next to 0. That’s a lot of lobbying money and PR influence. 

Worries: 
Battery life: everyone thought they’d have short life and Nissan Leafs supported it as they had no battery management eg no active heating cooling so they degrade really quickly. Tech has changed massively and even little city cars like the Fiat 500e have actively cooled /managed batteries now. Real world battery life now is far in excess of average engine life, replacement costs are down and the old batteries are 100% recyclable and being recycled with all the rare elements recaptured. 

Range: OP is right the small city vehicles are niche but they have a growing place as fuel costs rise. It becomes viable to hire a petrol car for more long trips per year and still save money overall. Many households have one petrol one EV and the person doing the long trip takes the petrol making the hire days even less, only when 2 long trips are happening.

Fire: previous poster is right, EV fire is far rarer than Petrol per mile driven. This is pure myth put about by the gas car industry. 

Extra CO2 to build: the “it takes 80k miles for an EV to offset the additional CO2 of manufacture” is another gas manufacturer myth. Yes it is higher, Fully researched evidenced actual is that after 13k miles petrol/diesel has overtaken EV for total emissions. A considerable chunk of that is the battery which is 100% recyclable. 

Infrastructure: This one is true, bad and getting worse. Other than Tesla, there are far far too few rapid chargers in the places people need them. With 1 in 6 new cars being electric, this is a crisis that will be in the news in about a year. Most motorways only have 2 non Tesla chargers, the one I know that has 12 (Rugby M6) is regularly full, which gives an idea of real demand now, let alone next year. Delay has been part of the active lobbying of the car manufacturers/fossil fuel industry, it’s not an accident. 

There’s some other common concerns that have not come up but you will often hear:
“generating electric uses fossil fuel anyway”
Yes but less than 50% last year (I couldn’t quite believe my eyes that we are over 50% average renewable generation annually but we are) and even then, a power station is on average 60% efficient, a good car 30%. Quite literally it’s better for the environment to use electric generated by coal than petrol/ diesel. 

“insurance is more expensive” it can be, but Direct line in particular and a few others have changed that. My quotes this year were almost 3k with LV vs £450 Direct Line. 

“battery materials are scarce and use child labour” again a real problem but one that is being addressed. Low Cobalt batteries are now normal in modern battery design (Cobalt pretty much only found in DRC and exploited labour/child labour a real issue). Nickel and Lithium are the bottleneck minerals and it’s a work in progress to sort it. Long term it’s fine as 15 years on from most people having EVs the old batteries will be being recycled into new ones, so there’s more than enough to go round in perpetuity, the issue is getting enough of it out of the ground quickly enough for the need as we transition. 

“Why don’t we use Hydrogen” the manufacturers would love you to, see above for why. For cars, EV is 100% shown to be better than hydrogen. But, where it does come in, is for heavy goods vehicles, air travel etc. My wish/ prediction is that hydrogen generation from solar in remote impoverished dry places is the route out of poverty. It’s not practical to transport electricity very long distances which is the main reason we’ve not covered the Sahara in solar panels,not the sand etc. but, transporting Hydrogen is another matter, very doable. If someone would invest philanthropically in setting it up, many countries would become self sufficient and move towards parity in years. In reality I suspect the fossil fuel cos will transfer to hydrogen and will keep the profits as now :-(


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## Sirenity (30 Jun 2022)

My EV experience: 
I’ve been driving 100% electric only cars since 2017 and we are now a 2 EV household. 

I’ve had the lowest depreciation of any car I’ve ever owned with my Nissan Leaf which I got to help my saving towards my Tesla and on the “why wait” principle. 

Bought 2017 for £8k Leafs do have a battery life issue see my other post for why so with 60k on the clock the battery and its price had dropped. My cost of ownership: 
service /maintenance £275 (suspension bar in car Vs pothole challenge) no service needed. Insurance mot tyres etc = petrol car. Sold 2021 £5.5k. So 4.5 yrs total variable cost pa £600. With all depreciation and repairs added, I’ve never owned a car old or newish that’s been less than that and I’m the old git that has my data going back to 1990. 

Over the time I used it (60k to 90k on the clock) it’s range dropped from 75m to 50). If i’d kept it, I’d have shelled out for the battery replacement equivalent to a new engine which was 8k and would have put it up to 185m range. Fuel savings would have gone towards that. I’ve not counted fuel savings as reduction in costs as they were towards my Tesla savings fund. 

I sold the Nissan to a chap in London. He said it’s massively cheaper for him to hire a petrol car for odd out of London trip and 50m range is perfect for everything else (a classic case of the OP’s point). low range was a ball ache for me as I do quite a bit of long distance but I’m super motivated and for me it was worth it. But I 100% get that range like that is useless unless you are mostly city driving at which point the fuel savings more than pay for a few car hires for long trips. 

2021, I bought a Tesla for 32k. (9 yrs of saving). 220m range, just over 100k on the clock and one of the old ones with free charging for the life of the car so my variable cost of ownership so far has been £75 for a minor repair and I’ve paid about £20 total for the odd top up at home. I’ve travelled 11k miles for under £100. The old Teslas are aluminium bodies, and I checked with 2 local body shops that they would do body repairs on Aly, so I’ve effectively got a car for life barring me wrapping it round a tree. I’ll save for a battery replacement which will be 22k but will put it up to 350m+range. There’s no sign of problems with the battery yet, it’s guaranteed for another 50k miles so free replacement if it fails soon and I’m saving about 2kpa in no fuel cost towards it. There’s a few 1million mile Tesla’s out there now and I’d like mine to be one of them in time. It’s not a cheap car, so for me the total cost of ownership will be higher than I’m used to, but its way cheaper than cars in its field. It’s a dream to drive with the “self driving” that’s no where near that yet obviously but gets better every month. I just “drove” to Hungary and back 3k miles travelled, of which I actually drove about 250 and just acted as driving instructor/babysitter for the car for the rest. 
There are enough Tesla chargers everywhere this side of Turkey for almost all demand and they are building new ones at a massive rate. The same can’t be said for others! 
My other half has just got a small ev and literally couldn’t find an empty fast charger on a recent trip. Other than that, there has been no problem with 2 EVs in the house; it’s cheap, relaxing to drive and 99.9% of the time takes 2 seconds to charge, get home, plug in, walk away. It’s preset on a timer and starts charging on cheap overnight electricity… 
That’s the other worry I forgot to address in my essay of a post before, the “what happens when everyone gets home and plugs in” in reality, they use the electric that needs using at night, in fact the trial of EVs selling power back to the grid to support the 5.30-7.30pm demand, reducing the need for peaker plant generation went so well, it’s being rolled out now so the opposite will be the case. 

Overall I’d not change back ever, my old car went to a friend who does very low milage and keeps it under a porch, the best case scenario of keeping on using an already built vehicle while minimising the pollution. I hope my Tesla will see me out and 

I hope many more people look into a used EV as the risk with older cars of buying a lemon is far less of an issue as there’s so much less wear and tear of expensive bits!


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## Jameshow (6 Jul 2022)

Is that typical for battery range decline?? 

Are some models worse than others? 

Does the charging history have an effect?? 




Sirenity said:


> My EV experience:
> I’ve been driving 100% electric only cars since 2017 and we are now a 2 EV household.
> 
> I’ve had the lowest depreciation of any car I’ve ever owned with my Nissan Leaf which I got to help my saving towards my Tesla and on the “why wait” principle.
> ...


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## Pineapple (21 Sep 2022)

Ozi said:


> Interesting little vehicle (looks remarkably like a grasshopper from the front), probably killed by the batteries of the day and massive cost of low volume production. We desperately need incentives to get things like this into general use and bring the costs down to where the average person can not only afford them but saves money in the process. It's a bit like seat belts, everyone knew they should use them but usage hovered around 10 - 15% because we all know we are good drivers and other people have accidents, a fifty pound fine people believed in and usage reach 90%, massive cut to death and serious injury on the roads.
> 
> People are going to hate this idea but if all new drivers were limited to vehicles with 2 seats and performance like the car I started this thread with we would soon have low cost minimalist vehicles on the roads. I don't like laws that are inflexible, if it was down to me rules like that would be the basic assumption but people would be able to apply for exemptions, ie. young mum with two kids needs a four seater. Same principle all new houses should be assumed to have some form of renewable energy supply and rain water harvesting, there will be instances where that doesn't make sense, if your roof is in shadow or the local infrastructure cannot cope with the added generation the builder should be able to apply for an exemption license.
> 
> Can I ask what e-bikes you have.











Aluminium Folding - Throttle + Pedal Assisted Electric Bike -Black | HybridVelo


Hybridvelo UK registered Trade Mark. - Folding Aluminium Frame. All our electric bicycles is a product of quality used components such Panasonic lithium 14ah battery, aluminium frame, cst tyres , padded seats , magnesium alloy wheels, led headlamps all packaged to offer best value. This is a...




www.hybridvelo.co.uk




Good Quality + Excellent 48v//15mph Performance + UK Road Legal + No Tax + No Insurance + No MOT & BEST PRICE TOO !


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## Pineapple (21 Sep 2022)

Pineapple said:


> Aluminium Folding - Throttle + Pedal Assisted Electric Bike -Black | HybridVelo
> 
> 
> Hybridvelo UK registered Trade Mark. - Folding Aluminium Frame. All our electric bicycles is a product of quality used components such Panasonic lithium 14ah battery, aluminium frame, cst tyres , padded seats , magnesium alloy wheels, led headlamps all packaged to offer best value. This is a...
> ...


The Hybrid-Velo above has an Approximate Total Range of 40 Miles, depending upon Terrain & Loading.
UK Train Rules State:=NO Cycles on UK Trains Unless (1) The train has a Guard's Van; or (2) The Cycle is The Folding Type, in which case there is No Restriction So Any Train is OK.


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## Pineapple (21 Sep 2022)

heimlaga said:


> I understand. A rugged design which you have gotten used to and know how to get the best out of. Hard to beat.
> 
> I would not change my 50 years old tractor for an brand new one even if someone was foolish enough to make the offer.


( Helpful English Language Correction = "gotten used to" should be = Become Accustomed To or Become used to.)
Gotten is one of those Vile American inaccuracies !


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## Spectric (21 Sep 2022)

I think a major concern with EV's is the fire risk, watching a program where a transporter with EV's on board just caught fire due to a fault in one of them and the firebrigade had a real problem putting it out to the point where they took one away and submerged it in a large skip full of water to prevent re ignition. At the moment you see the firebrigade cutting people out of cars involved in collisions but maybe with EV's there will not be sufficient time and the occupant will just be cremated at the scene, just thinking of the damage a laptop can cause when it ignites is bad but multiply this to a car and you ahve bigger issues and I can see why many recovery firms won't touch them.


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## J-G (21 Sep 2022)

Pineapple said:


> ( Helpful English Language Correction = "gotten used to" should be = Become Accustomed To or Become used to.)
> Gotten is one of those Vile American inaccuracies !


That opinion is based upon your personal misunderstanding of the true etymology of the verb 'To Get'. The past participle of 'Get' (gotten) originally came from the middle English 'geten' and used to be prefered in British English. The fact that the 'left-pondians' still use it simply means that they (as usual) don't 'keep up' with language mutation. 

...and why you consider that invective a suitable means of comunicating your opinion is difficult to fathom.


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## Geoff_S (21 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> I think a major concern with EV's is the fire risk, watching a program where a transporter with EV's on board just caught fire due to a fault in one of them and the firebrigade had a real problem putting it out to the point where they took one away and submerged it in a large skip full of water to prevent re ignition. At the moment you see the firebrigade cutting people out of cars involved in collisions but maybe with EV's there will not be sufficient time and the occupant will just be cremated at the scene, just thinking of the damage a laptop can cause when it ignites is bad but multiply this to a car and you ahve bigger issues and I can see why many recovery firms won't touch them.


Petrol cars catch fire too.


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## chris.s (21 Sep 2022)

Geoff_S said:


> Petrol cars catch fire too.


The old air cooled VW type 2 were well know for the fuel pipe connector coming out of the carburetor body I narrowly avoided a fire in one.


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## Spectric (21 Sep 2022)

Geoff_S said:


> Petrol cars catch fire too.


There is a big difference in petrol and lithium, petrol can be starved of oxygen but lithium being self oxidising means traditional foam does not work, you need to reduce the temperature below it's ignition point of around 500° C and submerge in water which is not always easy, they are like an incendiary device.


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## pe2dave (21 Sep 2022)

heimlaga said:


> For running on animal fat I rekon a hot bulb engine will be more appropriate. The problem being that hot bulb engines and spare parts for them are in short supply theese days and that unlike the aforementioned Perkins diesels few hot bulb engines have reliable governors.
> 
> Woodgas would be another option. A modern downdraft wood gasifyer can be home built and the common VolvoB20 engine has been proven to run well on woodgas though at only about half it's rated horsepowers. Unfortunately this motor also lacks a governor. Another problem being that motorways must be equipped with a standstill lane where electic cars can stop any time to clear out blockages and rake out ash from the wood gasifiers that feed the combustion engines that power the generators that feed the electric motors.


Horses for courses? 
Woodgas in Finland may make sense. In N Africa? E USA? Less so.


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## powertools (21 Sep 2022)

Perhaps someone could explain this zero servicing costs of an ev to me.


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## Geoff_S (21 Sep 2022)

powertools said:


> Perhaps someone could explain this zero servicing costs of an ev to me.


Do you mean it costs zero or they do zero?


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## Spectric (21 Sep 2022)

powertools said:


> Perhaps someone could explain this zero servicing costs of an ev to me.


They still have brakes, tyres, suspension and steering which you cannot just ignore and there must be EV specific components that need checking so there will be cost involved, maybe not engine oil and filter but still there will be something.


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## Jameshow (21 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> They still have brakes, tyres, suspension and steering which you cannot just ignore and there must be EV specific components that need checking so there will be cost involved, maybe not engine oil and filter but still there will be something.


Tyres suspension and servicing will be the same like for like, brakes will be reduced due to regenerative braking, oil and filters won't be required obviously!


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## Pineapple (22 Sep 2022)

J-G said:


> That opinion is based upon your personal misunderstanding of the true etymology of the verb 'To Get'. The past participle of 'Get' (gotten) originally came from the middle English 'geten' and used to be prefered in British English. The fact that the 'left-pondians' still use it simply means that they (as usual) don't 'keep up' with language mutation.
> 
> ...and why you consider that invective a suitable means of comunicating your opinion is difficult to fathom.


Kinell ! That's me told.


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## Lons (22 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Tyres suspension and servicing will be the same like for like, brakes will be reduced due to regenerative braking, oil and filters won't be required obviously!


Electrics and tech go wrong on a regular basis, sensor failure for example is an mot fail, diagnostics currently cost anything from £75 to £150 a pop on vehicles and I don't believe for one second that EVs will be immune to that. Dealers will find even more "clever" expensive ways of making you part with your cash, they do after all need to make profit and stay in business, remember those _free _coffees and biscuits at a main dealer aren't free at all.


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## Spectric (22 Sep 2022)

A main dealer has to make regular income and cannot just rely on car sales to survive so they will still be making money somehow, maybe there will be a mandatory safety cert required every year for the life of the vehicle as well as the MOT !

Lets not forget the poor old chancellor, what about all the lossed revenue from fuel duty, will zero emision remain zero taxation because they will still need money to maintain the road networks and we could end up with a tax on the electricity used by the chargers.


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## Jameshow (22 Sep 2022)

Lons said:


> Electrics and tech go wrong on a regular basis, sensor failure for example is an mot fail, diagnostics currently cost anything from £75 to £150 a pop on vehicles and I don't believe for one second that EVs will be immune to that. Dealers will find even more "clever" expensive ways of making you part with your cash, they do after all need to make profit and stay in business, remember those _free _coffees and biscuits at a main dealer aren't free at all.


Agreed I was only commenting on routine servicing. 

Main stealers will make a killing esp as the indie sector will take time to build up an EV garage offer. Often they are ex main dealer mechanics who aren't going to be let go so easily.


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## Stuart Moffat (22 Sep 2022)

Geoff_S said:


> New batteries then, according to the "they sayers".


Likewise. My hybrid toyota auris is now 11 years old. I did 30,000 miles in its 1st year, and currently on 110,000 miles. The Toyota dealer says all cells test fine. No breakdowns or repairs.just annual servicing. Still no car tax to pay. why would I change it?


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## Stevekane (22 Sep 2022)

Re sensors, I wonder if many of the sensors that play up on IC engines are ones living in hot exhaust, or fuel system intakes whereas in an electric vehicle that perhaps wouldnt be the case. If you think about electrical and electronic items at home they are on the whole now extremely reliable.


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## Just4Fun (22 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Tyres suspension and servicing will be the same like for like


Tyres are an oddity. I recently saw some figures that showed EVs are more likely to fail the MOT because of worn tyres, but I am not sure why. Possibilities include:
1. Many EVs have better acceleration than typical ICE vehicles, and that can wear tyres
2. Batteries are heavy and heavier vehicles wear tyres more quickly
3. EV Owners get used to low maintenance and don't inspect their tyres often


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## clogs (22 Sep 2022)

woz it on here that said a few breakdown service providers will not collect EV cars....?
if so those that do will screw u into the ground....
I'm sure the EV manufacturers will convince the know nothing morons in gov to include unimaginable sencers just to fleece u.....
What I believe should be manditory is that manufacturers should have to repair all electronic systems for 100,000miles FOC.....
this way they will build reliable vehicles that would be truely green'ish...
not fill the junk yards as now with uneconomical/unrepairable vehicles.....
I'm not against EV's but were just getting screwed over something newer .....


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## Terry - Somerset (22 Sep 2022)

Most EV manufacturers warrant a high level of battery capacity for 8-10 years, sometimes mileage limited.

A few car companies warrant ICE cars up to 7 years (eg: Kia) - no reason why it should be different for EVs. However, the first owner is typically concerned with only the first few years of ownership, it is the second and third owners who need a longer warranty.

The only major different in servicing costs will relate to the engine and gearbox - servicing is mainly related to checking and changing oil and filters - perhaps £50-100 of the total cost of the service + less frequent cambelt and spark plugs. 

More major repairs are likely to be much less for an EV - simply because wear and failure will usually relate to the much higher number of moving parts in an ICE engine, clutch and gearbox. 

Against that (for the moment) manufacturing and operating experience with ICE has ensured designs will have been refined over the years to minimise failure, whereas for EV I suspect we are still moving up the learning curve.


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## Spectric (22 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> it is the second and third owners who need a longer warranty


Our local garage will not entertain any EV's on the lot, he is looking to retire within the next ten years and so is also not investing in any training and won't be touching anything EV or hybrid because he knows there will be more than enough work to see him out.


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## Jameshow (22 Sep 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> Tyres are an oddity. I recently saw some figures that showed EVs are more likely to fail the MOT because of worn tyres, but I am not sure why. Possibilities include:
> 1. Many EVs have better acceleration than typical ICE vehicles, and that can wear tyres
> 2. Batteries are heavy and heavier vehicles wear tyres more quickly
> 3. EV Owners get used to low maintenance and don't inspect their tyres often


I don't think the are comparing like with like. 

A 2t Tesla will eat tyres just like my 2.2t Volvo XC90 used to I'm sure it had secret shares in continental!! 

A 1.5t mid size i3 might be compared to a golf ice at 1.2t but it's 30% heavier???


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## astromax66 (23 Sep 2022)

I'm going to add my penny's worth about electric cars and believe me when I say, "I'm concerned about the rise in carbon emissions."
I've heard reports about fields in the USA loaded with ditched Tesla vehicles. The reason is this: (all figures are an example only)... People spend, let's say $46,000 on a Tesla. The batteries are modular and one or two modules require replacing. Tesla won't replace the bad modules, they will only replace the entire battery bank. OK... so how much? Well, anything from $18,000 to $26,000. The car is 6 years old and now worth only $12,000 to $16,000. Americans have started to realise that the battery market for car battery banks is an utter steal for the manufacturer. So the big question is this... Are electric/battery cars really practical or even worth it?
Remember, if you want to sell your car, you won't get a user-friendly price for it. If your car is only worth $16,000 and you replace the battery bank, no one is going to give you the price of a brand new car for a second hand even if you have replaced the battery bank with new because the second-hand car doesn't come with any of the manufacturer's warranties, guarantee's or limited warranties and a lot of the insurers will not touch that vehicle if you have replaced the batteries yourself.
SO... is the electric car really worth it? Go figure...


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## Jones (23 Sep 2022)

It took me less than 30 seconds to check the " fields of dumped Tesla's" story and if you can't be bothered to check yourself I can let you know it's boll**ks. Car batteries wether Lion or lead acid are valuable and recyclable and faulty ones can be replaced. 
There are many valid reasons why an individual may or may not want an electric vehicle so there's really no need to make any up.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Jones said:


> It took me less than 30 seconds to check the " fields of dumped Tesla's" story and if you can't be bothered to check yourself I can let you know it's boll**ks. Car batteries wether Lion or lead acid are valuable and recyclable and faulty ones can be replaced.
> There are many valid reasons why an individual may or may not want an electric vehicle so there's really no need to make any up.


Is it worth replacing the batteries?
I know nothing about them but it does seem to be the weakest link. I get the feeling that EVs are just a passing fad and won't be with us for long, except for local short distance work.


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## AJB Temple (23 Sep 2022)

If you know nothing about them Jacob, as you state, how can you know the batteries are the weakest link? 

My experience is that is utter nonsense. We have had two fully electric Teslas (mine and my business partner's). Mine is 4 years old. Battery remains 98% efficient. Software and charging improvements mean range has gone up, not down. My wife's business is busy switching to all electric cars and service vans. Running costs are shooting down. 

Typical range of EV's is increasing. Charger network is increasing rapidly. Charge time is coming down. 

EV is here for the long term. HFC is always touted as a replacement, but has almost nil penetration so far.


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

It might not only be the cost of the new batteries but also the work involved in changing them, it is not like changing your ICE battery as they are often distributed around the vehicle in various locations. I would also suspect you cannot just dump an EV because it contains hazardous materials. With the lead acid battery it is the plastic material that is of greater value than the lead according to my local salvage yard.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> If you know nothing about them Jacob, as you state, how can you know the batteries are the weakest link?


From what people say, where else?
Friends have a van - they complain about 100 mile range , scarcity of working charging points, and charging times.
And the net is full of chatter along the same lines.
You are unusual in being so positive. I guess you and your wife do a lot of short distance work?
I get the impression that small vehicles, down to scooters and pedal bikes, are more viable as the overall power to weight ratio must be higher and they only do short journeys.


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## Just4Fun (23 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> With the lead acid battery it is the plastic material that is of greater value than the lead according to my local salvage yard.


That is counter-intuitive. Certainly I would never have guessed that. Do you know why it is so? Has something happened to the lead that prevents (economic) recycling? Is there something special about the plastic?


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

The plastic apparently is not just plastic, try putting most plastic's into Sulphuric acid and you can see why. Lead has a value but has got some bad press over the years, no longer used in paint and many other uses have diminished unklike when it was really valuable for pipes, cable sheaths and many everyday uses.


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## sploo (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> I get the impression that small vehicles, down to scooters and pedal bikes, are more viable as the overall power to weight ratio must be higher and they only do short journeys.


Sort of the opposite (at least, from what I understand of current battery tech). Think of a battery as being like a bucket with a tap; the bucket has a finite amount of capacity, plus there are limits to how quickly you can fill or empty the bucket (emptying via the tap). EV battery packs tend to have a large number of cells working in parallel - because you need them in order to be able to draw enough current.

Many years ago I suggested to (an electronics/electrical savvy) mate that I wanted to build a Lotus Seven type two seater with an electric drivetrain. My idea was to have only a few batteries, accept a tiny range (20-40 miles), but have plenty of "punch" - but that's just not feasible as a small number of cells couldn't deliver sufficient current for decent acceleration.

If you look at, for example, the Tesla Plaid; it's got over 1000hp, has a claimed range near 400 miles, but weighs well over 2000kg. I'd be happy with a 500hp EV that has a range of 200 miles, and weighs closer to 1200kg; but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be on the cards.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

sploo said:


> Sort of the opposite (at least, from what I understand of current battery tech). Think of a battery as being like a bucket with a tap; the bucket has a finite amount of capacity, plus there are limits to how quickly you can fill or empty the bucket (emptying via the tap). EV battery packs tend to have a large number of cells working in parallel - because you need them in order to be able to draw enough current.
> 
> Many years ago I suggested to (an electronics/electrical savvy) mate that I wanted to build a Lotus Seven type two seater with an electric drivetrain. My idea was to have only a few batteries, accept a tiny range (20-40 miles), but have plenty of "punch" - but that's just not feasible as a small number of cells couldn't deliver sufficient current for decent acceleration.
> 
> If you look at, for example, the Tesla Plaid; it's got over 1000hp, has a claimed range near 400 miles, but weighs well over 2000kg. I'd be happy with a 500hp EV that has a range of 200 miles, and weighs closer to 1200kg; but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be on the cards.


Tesla Plaid. Price: From $135,990


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## selectortone (23 Sep 2022)

Why do people keep banging on about EV battery life when many reliable sources are forecasting life-spans well in excess of the life of the vehicle?

Here's just one:

What happens to old electric car batteries? | National Grid Group.


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## selectortone (23 Sep 2022)

My daughter is getting 280-300 miles per charge with her Kia e-Nero. It's the extended range version. It cost a LOT less than a Tesla Plaid.

Kia e-Niro (2017-2022) review | Auto Express


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## sploo (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Tesla Plaid. Price: From $135,990


Absolutely, but then there's no such thing as a cheap EV (as far as I've seen). The Plaid is just an extreme example of a common theme for current EV cars: fairly expensive, impressive acceleration (compared to equivalent ICE cars), and lots of weight.


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## selectortone (23 Sep 2022)

What a bunch of luddites and curmudgeons we have here


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

sploo said:


> Absolutely, but then there's no such thing as a cheap EV (as far as I've seen). The Plaid is just an extreme example of a common theme for current EV cars: fairly expensive, impressive acceleration (compared to equivalent ICE cars), and lots of weight.


Exactly. In other words; toys for wealthy boys. Very little bearing on transport needs of the community as a whole.


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## Terry - Somerset (23 Sep 2022)

Assuming a continuing demand for personal transport:

fossil fuels are limited. Basic economics - if demand is greater than supply, prices increase to reduce demand. Precisely as happened to prices on Russian closure of the pipeline. 
the only real question is when will fossil fuel costs become unaffordable for most. ICE is ultimately a technological dead end.
batteries can be recharged using fossil fuel, nuclear, wind or solar energy. There is a technological roadmap. 
that liquid and gas fuels can be synthesised is plausible - but all involve energy losses in production. Far better to use the energy to charge a battery where losses are minimal
EVs have a significant development potential - cost of batteries, range, charging networks, etc. ICE is a very mature technology with almost nowhere to go.
as with all advances, early adopters are those who can afford the high costs of emerging and developing technologies. Without their input progress would largely stall.
we should not be ignorant of the challenges to be overcome with EVs - in particular the minerals needed for batteries and motors, recycling methods.
individual needs vary but current EV range is entirely adequate for most folk most of the time.
dismissing EVs as expensive toys for wealthy boys is (to put it courteously) is unjustified and superficial rhetoric of zero merit.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> .........
> 
> dismissing EVs as expensive toys for wealthy boys is (to put it courteously) is unjustified and superficial rhetoric of zero merit.


We already have old, tried and tested, battery EV technology on devices such as milk floats, ideal for short local travel where long charging times are not inconvenient.
We already have old, tried and tested, electric pick-up EV technology for electric trains, trolley buses, for long-distance, high-speed travel with no new battery developments and zero charging time.
Trying cross the gap between them perhaps not worth the bother, though there's always scope for improvement - perhaps just joining them up makes more sense; electric rail followed by local electric taxi. Also means fewer vehicles on the roads.
Hope that isn't "unjustified and superficial rhetoric of zero merit" - it's got me worried!


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## sploo (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Exactly. In other words; toys for wealthy boys. Very little bearing on transport needs of the community as a whole.


At the moment... mostly yes; though the costs have come down considerably, and the range of EV vehicles grown significantly. I'm a "petrol head" (old school motorsport fan) but I don't really see a better alternative to the steady adoption of EV cars. Or to put it another way; I largely agree with Terry's points in post #185.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

sploo said:


> At the moment... mostly yes; though the costs have come down considerably, and the range of EV vehicles grown significantly. I'm a "petrol head" (old school motorsport fan) but I don't really see a better alternative to the steady adoption of EV cars. Or to put it another way; I largely agree with Terry's points in post #185.


My feeling is that yes ICE has no future but also we are at peak levels of personal transport anyway. Every city town and village is jam packed solid. Easy to forget that this has happened in a very short space of time, say about 60 years.
Public transport is the future and needs no technological advance.
The other issue is that Climate Change is altering the whole picture very quickly and most of what we should have done is already too late.


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## selectortone (23 Sep 2022)

My local DPD driver has an electric van. He absolutely LOVES it - quiet, smoother, less tiring to drive (no gears) and better performance. Plus it isn't belching out diesel particulates and CO2 like almost all the other delivery vans around here.

Probably not a viable alternative for a country round (yet), but for urban it's perfect. Sometimes EVs aren't just a viable alternative, they're a _better_ alternative.


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## AJB Temple (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob's assertion that public transport is the future may be true in a handful of cities. Definitely not anywhere else. The bus service in rural areas is mostly a figment of people's imagination. Zero where we live - literally 3 miles walk to any bus stop and then the service is twice a day. 

To answer your question Jacob - no I don't do mainly short journeys. No idea what my wife has to do with it. My general perception is that you don't know much about EVs and are just pebble chucking in ponds.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> Jacob's assertion that public transport is the future may be true in a handful of cities. Definitely not anywhere else. The bus service in rural areas is mostly a figment of people's imagination. Zero where we live - literally 3 miles walk to any bus stop and then the service is twice a day.


"reinstating" public transport then. Changes are on the way, probably bigger than anticipated


AJB Temple said:


> To answer your question Jacob - no I don't do mainly short journeys. No idea what my wife has to do with it.


You said "My wife's business is busy switching to all electric cars"


AJB Temple said:


> My general perception is that you don't know much about EVs and are just pebble chucking in ponds.


I don't know much about EVs but I am interested. Is that OK, hope you don't mind? 
PS I'm interested in the whole climate change issue, as we all should be, but my general perception is that the EV interest is just fiddling about whilst Rome burns.


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

Why put all your eggs in one basket, have a hybrid and you can always complete the journey. Hybrids are a good all round compromise because around towns and cities it can be electric but out on the open road it can be ICE so no pollution from the vehicle in traffic jams. One of the reasons why ICE's are not as clean as they could be is that they need a wide RPM range to operate, idle to max unless it is a hybrid, now you don't need the ICE for initial pull away or running at low speeds because this can all be electric. With the ICE it is all down to airflow and volumetric efficiency, this is a compromise because to get good airflow at high rpm means you get poor airflow with low velocity at low rpm. Some manufacturers have tried port deactivation systems in order to improve this and the variable vane turbochargers are also a means to improving their ability to deliver airflow over a wider range. 

@Jacob is seeing the future in that personal transport will one day become history but for that to work will mean some very big changes in both attitude and society. Single occupancy vehicles are a problem, but having a public transport system that is unreliable and badly managed is not going to help because people cannot be expected to have long stressful commutes to work. We could well be revisting lessons from history, when transport was primative and long winded the people running industry like the mills actually built local housing for the workers, maybe we need people to work within a certain distance of employment and stop all these long commutes where one person in a car is passing another one person in a car going in opposite directions to work. 

So rather than make the EV suit our current way of life lets change our way of life to suit the EV.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> @Jacob is seeing the future in that personal transport will one day become history but for that to work will mean some very big changes in both attitude and society.


The very big changes are coming along whether we like it of not. It's probably too late to do anything much anyway.


Spectric said:


> Why put all your eggs in one basket, have a hybrid and you can always complete the journey. ....


Worst of both worlds.


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## Terry - Somerset (23 Sep 2022)

Just an opinion, but public transport as it currently exists is not the future. It is expensive, at best inconvenient, and for more rural dwellers economically non-existent. It is the default for those unable to drive, unable to afford a car, and for commuting into large urban centres.

Driverless will happen - the only question is when. Much of the tech is already embedded in newer cars and in delivery robots being trialled in many places. The future could be:

driverless cars delivered to your door summoned by app. Payment card waved at a card reader. Tell it where to go. Arrive, get out, car goes to next assignment. Zero parking issues.
for longer journeys, rail may be an option. App for car to station. At destination get into similar car for final journey leg
some will still want own car rather than rented through app. May or may not be driverless. If used on longer journeys, recharging could be through induction loops (or similar) under road surface. Motorways to be upgraded first.
road haulage could be radically changed through use of automated wagons
with driverless, remote recharging sites could be established - cars would drive themselves there and plug in waiting the next assignment or full charge
There will be a lengthy transition to full transport automation, and much will depend on the performance of automated systems vs homo sapiens. 

Automated systems in time may substantially out-perform flesh and blood and be the default or only transport choice. In 20 years, it is entirely plausible that to actually drive a car you will need to pass a very intensive test.

The benefits:

old, disabled, children, etc will face none of the current personal transport barriers
road safety may be improved
costs of transport would be substantially reduced through vehicle sharing
congestion reduced through automated routing
limited need for parking spaces with reduced total vehicle population


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## Ozi (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Exactly. In other words; toys for wealthy boys. Very little bearing on transport needs of the community as a whole.


Just as the first IC cars were.

In automotive as anything else there are economies of mass production. It matters not if people like the idea electric cars are going to dominate the market very soon and Petrol / diesel will rapidly disappear. This will happen, it's already under way. Petrol stations are getting less viable as businesses and closing in many areas. If you thought £2 a litre was expensive watch this space. As for fiddling while Rome burns that's up to us. Manufacturers will offer what sells. We need to buy smaller cars. We need to change the way we work - and are - more people work from home at least some of the time. Just as we need to stop heating our homes to tea shirt temperatures all year round


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## rogxwhit (23 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> public transport as it currently exists is not the future. It is expensive, at best inconvenient, and for more rural dwellers economically non-existent.





Terry - Somerset said:


> driverless cars delivered to your door summoned by app. Payment card waved at a card reader. Tell it where to go. Arrive, get out, car goes to next assignment.


And do you honestly suppose that such a scenario will be cheaper to use than the existing model of public transport?


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Sep 2022)

Ozi said:


> Just as the first IC cars were.
> 
> It matters not if people like the idea electric cars are going to dominate the market very soon ...


I was speaking to an electrician who been on a course about installing charging points. He said the lecturer said at the beginning before we go much further what I'm going to tell you doesn't really apply - around here at least the infrastructure won't support anything like the loading.


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

What is missing from public transport is efficiency, look how many millions of japanese pass through Tokyo's Shinjuku station every day, 3.5 million and thousands of trains yet here in the uk we struggle to even run a basic service which people can rely on. We run franchises for train operators and the actual tracks are operated as a public sector company run by our government, Japanese are completely in private hands.


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## Jameshow (23 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I was speaking to an electrician who been on a course about installing charging points. He said the lecturer said at the beginning before we go much further what I'm going to tell you doesn't really apply - around here at least the infrastructure won't support anything like the loading.


Yeap I gave a national grid engineer freind and he says the same thing. 

Not to mention ashp/ gshp....


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I was speaking to an electrician who been on a course about installing charging points. He said the lecturer said at the beginning before we go much further what I'm going to tell you doesn't really apply - around here at least the infrastructure won't support anything like the loading.


Domestic chargers are one problem, only really going to be an issue if a high percentage of homes in an area are all using them at the same time but commercial units which will be needed are another, you cannot just replace six petrol / diesel fuel pumps with six 60 Kw EV chargers each capable of pulling 80 plus amps because the supply won't be capable of delivering 500 amps. The whole infrastructure will need upgrading, from local 11Kv subs all the way back up to the 400Kv to 132Kv subs and then off course you need the power generation to supply it in the first place. So back to the hybrid, that is a more viable and cost effective solution in the near future until we can move onto full EV's.


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## Droogs (23 Sep 2022)

Yet again Jacob has no clue. The are quite a few EVs for around the UK price average of an ICE car the MG4 is 25 - 28K and has a range of ~220 - 280 miles. That is bang on the price average and will more than meet the needs for over 85% of UK drivers.


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## selectortone (23 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I was speaking to an electrician who been on a course about installing charging points. He said the lecturer said at the beginning before we go much further what I'm going to tell you doesn't really apply - around here at least the infrastructure won't support anything like the loading.


That's debatable. A lot of charging takes place overnight when power demand is at its lowest. In fact, EVs may one day act as reservoirs for wind power.

For the first 20 years or so of ICE cars drivers had to take fuel cans to the local chemist. Infrastructure evolves with demand. What's better, plugging in your car at home or queuing at the petrol station?

There's so much negativity in this thread- as if we didn't have enough to be depressed about.


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## Just4Fun (23 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Why put all your eggs in one basket, have a hybrid and you can always complete the journey. Hybrids are a good all round compromise because around towns and cities it can be electric but out on the open road it can be ICE so no pollution from the vehicle in traffic jams.


A friend recently acquired a hybrid Audi. Initially he was just commuting locally and loved it. Then a couple of weeks ago he hooked up his trailer and set off on a longer journey. He does this journey, with trailer, regularly in his diesel van, and it is no problem. Well, the hybrid ran out of electrical power before he got outside the ring road, so for the rest of the day he was using the ICE. The problem was the fuel tank is much smaller than on a pure ICE version of the car, and he had to refuel 4 times to complete his journey. He was not impressed and is now selling the car. Yes, he could complete the journey, but it was a pain.


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## Just4Fun (23 Sep 2022)

selectortone said:


> What's better, plugging in your car at home or queuing at the petrol station?


Avoiding fuel stations is a big attraction for me, certainly. I would welcome that and if I had an EV I could easily have a home charger, meaning that for me an EV would be a time saver. Not everyone is in that position though and someone who has to park their car on the street will have no choice but to use a public charge point. I assume that is likely to take longer than refuelling an ICE car, so for them an EV would need more time.

I am not against EVs but it seems to me they are not yet ready to take over from ICE. Eventually that might happen, but until then I will avoid them.


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## powertools (23 Sep 2022)

I dont see much point in this debate. The fact (that nobody wants to accept) is that we all need to drive smaller cars that use less energy of any type.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> What is missing from public transport is efficiency, ...


What is missing is public control and investment. They do it better abroad.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

powertools said:


> I dont see much point in this debate. The fact (that nobody wants to accept) is that we all need to drive smaller cars that use less energy of any type.


That is the big issue.
There are simple ways of doing this such as reduced speed limits, fuel rationing, taxing SUVs and fuel wasters out of existence, increased subsidised public transport, support for cycling (electric and human powered) and many other steps - *as if there was an emergency in the offing*.
n.b. *But there IS an emergency in the offing,* more threatening than any war has ever been. 
So far very little action is being taken and the EV thing is all about how to carry on as normal. It also is pointless until we have sufficient sustainable electricity generation to make it effective in reducing carbon footprints. It's a distraction.


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

Just4Fun said:


> The problem was the fuel tank is much smaller than on a pure ICE version of the car, and he had to refuel 4 times to complete his journey. He was not impressed and is now selling the car. Yes, he could complete the journey, but it was a pain.


Yes this does highlight that in this early stage of change that the OEM's are still not getting everything right and are learning as they go, the same process happened with the ICE but many decades ago.


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## sploo (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Public transport is the future and needs no technological advance.



You're missing the fundamental problem of public transport though; it's full of the public. And I hate people


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## sploo (23 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Why put all your eggs in one basket, have a hybrid and you can always complete the journey. Hybrids are a good all round compromise because around towns and cities it can be electric but out on the open road it can be ICE so no pollution from the vehicle in traffic jams.


I thought the problem with hybrids (at least the early ones) was that you ended up with a car with a small ICE engine that's noisy (because it has to rev high to produce any power), doesn't get great fuel economy because it's lugging around the extra weight of the battery and motor, and doesn't tend to have a particularly good electric range because the need to carry an ICE (and related "plumbing") means there's no room for a big battery. At least, that's how I remember reviews of the early hybrids (basically, the worst of both worlds). That could have changed by now I guess.


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## Jameshow (23 Sep 2022)

sploo said:


> I thought the problem with hybrids (at least the early ones) was that you ended up with a car with a small ICE engine that's noisy (because it has to rev high to produce any power), doesn't get great fuel economy because it's lugging around the extra weight of the battery and motor, and doesn't tend to have a particularly good electric range because the need to carry an ICE (and related "plumbing") means there's no room for a big battery. At least, that's how I remember reviews of the early hybrids (basically, the worst of both worlds). That could have changed by now I guess.


Pretty much! 

Diesel hybrids would be a better idea electric for town diesel for long journeys... 

Volvo and mb made one.


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## Terry - Somerset (23 Sep 2022)

Many seem to think the distribution and generation network has insufficient capacity to transition to EV. In 2030, sales of ICE will stop. Until ~2040 there will be a residue of ICE on the road.

The transition to EV will happen over around 20 years. It does need a coherent investment plan - but it is completely feasible.

The average mileage per car in the UK is 9000pa. Most owners will need to charge once or twice per week. A 7KW domestic charge point will comfortably recharge an EV overnight. A fast charge may take an hour.

The concern that the entire country will all demand their cars charged at the same time of the same day and "blow" the distribution network is absurd. 

This all assumes car usage will remain largely unchanged. However, there are some pressures - eg: more work from home, online shopping, etc will have an impact. 

Without intrusive regulation I would not expect increased public transport to reduce personal car usage.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Sep 2022)

Many seem to think the distribution and generation network has insufficient capacity to transition to EV?

Many know the distribution and generation network has insufficient capacity already.


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## Spectric (23 Sep 2022)

I can recall that down in Essex they had to upgrade a large 400Kv substation just to provide the capacity for the extra housing that was going up in every direction, that was before EV's were on the radar and also restring miles of pylons to balance the loadings, again before EV's so they were pushing the boundaries then. If you now think that during sudden high demands on the grid like when something on Tv has a break and we all turn our kettles on the national grid uses that welsh hydro plant to fill the gap then you can see where we stand. Kettles turned on for a few minutes or EV's being charged for hours, that hydro plant would drain the top reservoir.


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## Ollie78 (23 Sep 2022)

The success of small electric vehicles has been demonstrated in Taiwan. Small scooters and mopeds were extremely common forms of transport in the city, this caused horrendous smog as many were old and 2 stroke as well.
They bought in a system of electric scooters with removable battery packs, when your battery runs out you can swap it for a charged one at stations around the city, it has proven popular and reduced the urban smog a lot.
The removable battery seems like it solves a lot of the issues of charge time but is impractical in a 2.5 ton SUV (though it has been touted as an option for HGV`s with special stations). I think lightweight is certainly the future of electric vehicles.

I think the barriers to EV uptake are firstly cost, there is no possible way I could buy any EV on offer (our car is 20 years old but functioning perfectly well, my van 10 years old and still just about OK ). To replace them both with new similar electric versions would cost nearly £100,000.
Secondly if you don`t have your own driveway charging is very impractical for now, terraced houses or flats it`s impossible to home charge.
Thirdly the cost of electricity being insane right now, this month it became cheaper to run a petrol car than an ev for the first time, hopefully this is temporary.

Personally I don`t think there is much "green" about electric vehicles, using tons of expensive resources from around the world does not reduce emission overall.
I think converting existing cars to electric versions if the engines die is a good option. And a good way to resto mod classic cars.

There is certainly a lot of uptake in small stand up scooters (despite complete illegality ) and ebikes where I live anyway, showing that small stuff works well with batteries.

Ollie


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## sploo (23 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Many seem to think the distribution and generation network has insufficient capacity to transition to EV. In 2030, sales of ICE will stop. Until ~2040 there will be a residue of ICE on the road.
> 
> The transition to EV will happen over around 20 years. It does need a coherent investment plan - but it is completely feasible.
> 
> ...


This should be handled by the newer specs for EV charging; adding significantly more "smarts" between the car, the charger, and "the network". ISO 15118-20:2022 contains all the details if you fancy some bedtime reading


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## John Brown (23 Sep 2022)

Ollie78 said:


> The success of small electric vehicles has been demonstrated in Taiwan. Small scooters and mopeds were extremely common forms of transport in the city, this caused horrendous smog as many were old and 2 stroke as well.
> They bought in a system of electric scooters with removable battery packs, when your battery runs out you can swap it for a charged one at stations around the city, it has proven popular and reduced the urban smog a lot.
> The removable battery seems like it solves a lot of the issues of charge time but is impractical in a 2.5 ton SUV (though it has been touted as an option for HGV`s with special stations). I think lightweight is certainly the future of electric vehicles.
> 
> ...


It doesn't really matter what you personally think. The people who have done the sums say that EVs have about 1/4 the carbon footprint of ICEs over their lifetime, and that's including manufacture. 
They may not suit everyone, of course, but things progress.


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## Ollie78 (23 Sep 2022)

John Brown said:


> It doesn't really matter what you personally think. The people who have done the sums say that EVs have about 1/4 the carbon footprint of ICEs over their lifetime, and that's including manufacture.
> They may not suit everyone, of course, but things progress.


Can the "people" who have done these sums be trusted  statistics is the art of data manipulation after all.
Carbon footprint is not the only concern, there is also the amount of rare earth minerals currently required until carbon supercapacitors, air/iron, sodium ion or whatever technology actually wins the race to the next stage of energy density. 
Keeping already made cars going is better than any new vehicle electric or not in some ways. 

I would love an Arrival van for work, I think they have some fantastic design details and innovative structural design but it is a pipe dream for me and most "working peasents". 
I am not against progress but I do think the distance to go is further than we think, there is so much infrastructure that needs to be changed and upgraded, The government are not the people who should be doing it ( just look at the electrification of the trains shambles ) unfortunately they are in charge.


Ollie


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## Ozi (24 Sep 2022)

Electric Car Myths Debunked - MyGridGB


Britain's free and independant website tracking where electricity comes from and how rapidly it is decarbonising. Sharing easy to read blogs, simple electricity statistics and simulations of a decarbonised grid.




www.mygridgb.co.uk









There is our national usage of electricity over the last 28 days. Much higher in the day than at night, we have a lot of capacity, not in all areas admittedly but what we really lack is storage. Solve that problem and there is enough to run small cars. Just stop moving 2 tons of metal when what you need to move is one person!


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## Ozi (24 Sep 2022)

sploo said:


> I thought the problem with hybrids (at least the early ones) was that you ended up with a car with a small ICE engine that's noisy (because it has to rev high to produce any power), doesn't get great fuel economy because it's lugging around the extra weight of the battery and motor, and doesn't tend to have a particularly good electric range because the need to carry an ICE (and related "plumbing") means there's no room for a big battery. At least, that's how I remember reviews of the early hybrids (basically, the worst of both worlds). That could have changed by now I guess.


Some small self charging hybrids currently get 90 mpg, the batteries last longer than the car and they are close to the point where a vehicle is considered too quiet and the speaker they have to fit so you can here them when moving in EV needs to run at some IC engine outputs as well. PHEVs are a different matter, but they are improving.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Sep 2022)

There are apparently 18,000,000 properties where vehicles cannot be charged on site, so if we take two vehicles per property (optimistically low around here) that's 36,000,000 vehicles queueing daily for public charging points. They'd better be adequate.


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## PhilipL (24 Sep 2022)

I use public transport in a city and am thinking of doing without a car. But swearing and aggressive behaviour on the bus is not pleasant. No wonder people like cars.


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## John Brown (24 Sep 2022)

Ollie78 said:


> Can the "people" who have done these sums be trusted  statistics is the art of data manipulation after all.
> Carbon footprint is not the only concern, there is also the amount of rare earth minerals currently required until carbon supercapacitors, air/iron, sodium ion or whatever technology actually wins the race to the next stage of energy density.
> Keeping already made cars going is better than any new vehicle electric or not in some ways.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you were against progress, I was optimistically suggesting that the current hiccoughs with EVs will be ironed out in the future.


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## selectortone (24 Sep 2022)

Ozi said:


> There is our national usage of electricity over the last 28 days. Much higher in the day than at night, we have a lot of capacity, not in all areas admittedly but what we really lack is storage.


Charging EVs at night is effectively using them as storage.


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## HamsterJam (24 Sep 2022)

I think we are still in early days with EVs. ICE technology has evolved over many decades fuelled (excuse the pun) by substantial R&D budgets. 
EVs are still expensive just like a lot of technology has been when first introduced but I am sure they will continue to become more mainstream and affordable as demand picks up and with manufacturers investing substantial money into R&D, particularly battery technology.


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## Limey Lurker (24 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> If you know nothing about them Jacob, as you state, how can you know the batteries are the weakest link?
> 
> My experience is that is utter nonsense. We have had two fully electric Teslas (mine and my business partner's). Mine is 4 years old. Battery remains 98% efficient. Software and charging improvements mean range has gone up, not down. My wife's business is busy switching to all electric cars and service vans. Running costs are shooting down.
> 
> ...


IF there IS a weakest link, then it must be the latest technology involved in the car, as all the other parts of a car have been proved manytimes. Brakes, wheels, steering, seats, windows and electric multi-phase motors are none of them new, and Tesla's don't appear to be problematic, and their replacement cost is similar to that of carbon fuelled cars' parts.


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## DRC (24 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Most EV manufacturers warrant a high level of battery capacity for 8-10 years, sometimes mileage limited.
> 
> A few car companies warrant ICE cars up to 7 years (eg: Kia) - no reason why it should be different for EVs. However, the first owner is typically concerned with only the first few years of ownership, it is the second and third owners who need a longer warranty.
> 
> ...


I thought ICE was in car entertainment these abbreviations some of you use are confusing.


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## Geoff_S (24 Sep 2022)

DRC said:


> I thought ICE was in car entertainment these abbreviations some of you use are confusing.


But that's one of the benefits of these forums. One learns so much


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## Lockyear2810 (24 Sep 2022)

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine. 

I’m another who is concerned about the capacity of the grid to cope with charging EVs. Especially when you have kids wanting to charge their cars and you need to rely totally on electricity to provide your heating, hot water and cooking needs. 
You see massive solar farms being built but personally I don’t think they will help much with nighttime car charging.


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Sep 2022)

DRC said:


> I thought ICE was in car entertainment these abbreviations some of you use are confusing.


I agree, Democratic Republic of the Congo.


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## Spectric (24 Sep 2022)

Limey Lurker said:


> as all the other parts of a car have been proved manytimes. Brakes, wheels, steering, seats, windows and electric multi-phase motors


But take into account the cost saving initiatiives that have been undertaken over the years by the manufacturers, these are not for our benefit but to keep profit margins up. There was a time when you could buy overhaul kits for various parts of your car, now it is the complete unit at great additional cost. This saves the manufacturer money in not having to handle these spares as it is now just one component and your main dealer only needs a fitter to replace and not a garage mechanic / technician so they save as well. Another example is where they make the disk and hub as a single assembly so no more changing your disk, just the complete hub assembly which seems more common on the rear of PSA.


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## Terry - Somerset (24 Sep 2022)

> There was a time when you could buy overhaul kits for various parts of your car, now it is the complete unit at great additional cost.


I agree with the sentiment - perhaps like you I date from an era when any self-respecting lad could overhaul the brakes and swap a clutch. To run an old banger one needed to be mechanically able.

However, I suspect much fewer people bother with diy maintenance. If you are paying the garage to do the job it is a balance of mechanics time at £50-90 ph vs increased component costs.


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## Just4Fun (24 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> I agree with the sentiment - perhaps like you I date from an era when any self-respecting lad could overhaul the brakes and swap a clutch. To run an old banger one needed to be mechanically able.
> 
> However, I suspect much fewer people bother with diy maintenance.


Back in the days when I did all my own maintenance cars generally (and especially the cars I could afford) were much simpler. Easier to understand, easier access, easier to work on and only basic tools required. Now I rarely do anything for myself.


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## Ollie78 (24 Sep 2022)

John Brown said:


> I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you were against progress, I was optimistically suggesting that the current hiccoughs with EVs will be ironed out in the future.


Optimism is certainly good. I think when we get the next generation of batteries and many more charging stations it will be much better. Eventually the second hand market will be in a reasonable place. 

Ollie


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## John Brown (24 Sep 2022)

ICE always meant In Circuit Emulator/Emulation to me, but context is everything.


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## Geoff_S (24 Sep 2022)

John Brown said:


> ICE always meant In Circuit Emulator/Emulation to me, but context is everything.


Gin & tonic for me …


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## HamsterJam (24 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Public transport is the future and needs no technological advance.


Dunno about technological advance - certainly needs investment though. 
Nearest town is about 10miles away and there is one bus a week to get there, returning about an hour later. 
I suppose we could always get a pony and trap to do the weekly shop


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## dillon (24 Sep 2022)

Jones said:


> It took me less than 30 seconds to check the " fields of dumped Tesla's" story and if you can't be bothered to check yourself I can let you know it's boll**ks. Car batteries wether Lion or lead acid are valuable and recyclable and faulty ones can be replaced.
> There are many valid reasons why an individual may or may not want an electric vehicle so there's really no need to make any up.


Regardless of the Tesla story the fact is that batteries are expensive to replace. Due to this the older your car gets the faster its value will depreciate, particularly with the price of lithium increasing at its current pace. I can definitely see relatively young cars being scrapped for recycling due to nobody wanting to take a chance on older batteries.


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## Terry - Somerset (24 Sep 2022)

I and other half need to travel from home in Taunton to Emersons Green (a Bristol suburb) for a meeting at 11.00 on Tuesday 27th. An opportunity to understand the merits of public transport.

1.5 miles from house to Taunton station. Options - walk (no heavy bags) ~30mins. Bus needs to change in town centre ~30mins - ~ £4 return. Leave home at 08.15. Park at station or taxi both more expensive.
Taunton to Bristol Temple Meads. Off peak day return at 8.53 is £15.60. 
Arrive at Temple Meads at 09.24. Emersons Green is 10 miles away. Taxi (guess) is £30 return and should take ~22 mins. Bus is 55 mins - (say) £8 return. Arrive at 09.20.
Car - per Google - is 57 miles and 1hr 5 mins. Cost for fuel return at 45mpg is ~£20. Add (say) 50% for wear and tear (tyres, servicing) = £30 return.

*Summary*

The sample journey is not an anomalous invented trip to prove a point - it is a journey from a medium sized county town to a major UK city. Total cost by public transport for 2 is a minimum of £33.20 for those aged folk who qualify for a bus pass. For the fit, healthy and young the total cost is ~£55 (more if using taxi). Elapsed time door to door is ~3hrs.

Total cost by car is £30 and elapsed time ~1hr 10mins.

Neither allow for rail strikes, congestion, cancelled services etc. Building in a contingency with car simply means leaving earlier public transport risks more premium rush hour fares.

Note - the taxpayer substantially subsidises public transport, motorists are net taxpayers.

The answer is clear - public transport is so fundamentally inefficient in terms of cost and time it is not fit for purpose. It has a role only in providing a transport for those who cannot travel independently (a legitimate social service), and into major urban centres where environmental and congestion issues may dominate.


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## John Brown (24 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> I and other half need to travel from home in Taunton to Emersons Green (a Bristol suburb) for a meeting at 11.00 on Tuesday 27th. An opportunity to understand the merits of public transport.
> 
> 1.5 miles from house to Taunton station. Options - walk (no heavy bags) ~30mins. Bus needs to change in town centre ~30mins - ~ £4 return. Leave home at 08.15. Park at station or taxi both more expensive.
> Taunton to Bristol Temple Meads. Off peak day return at 8.53 is £15.60.
> ...


I agree. 40 years ago I used to travel up to Edgeware road in Paddington for work. I used to marvel that it was cheaper for me to drive there as the only occupant of a 3 litre Ford Granada than to take public transport. Even allowing for the occasional parking ticket. Now, if we want to go to Norfolk, for example, it's still cheaper to drive in our not-really-optimised-for-long-journeys PHEV.
It makes no sense to me, but I guess Dr Beeching has a lot to answer for. It should be the futiure, but I can't see it happening any time soon.


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## Stevekane (24 Sep 2022)

Intresting reviews online of a mass market Chinese electric car being sold for around £3500,,The Hong Guang Mini EV is being built as part of a joint venture with US car giant GM,,not a concept but a model thats already sold more cars than Tesla,,,I thought a very interesting take on a commuter car.
On a slightly different tack, what about doing away with the green belt around towns, encourage densly built towns so that they can eventually support public transport and incorporate workplaces near to where people live,,,like it used to be?
Steve


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## Spectric (24 Sep 2022)

John Brown said:


> ICE always meant In Circuit Emulator/Emulation to me,


Yes thats the issue with acronyms, they tend to work only within a given enviroment, you reminded me of the day when instead of very expensive hardware emulation systems costing thousands Motorola's 68000 series came out with BDM, background debug mode that was part of the integrated developement enviroment IDE that was software. You must remember the likes of Greenhill and Introl !


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## Jameshow (24 Sep 2022)

This looks interesting....? 









Resolve Controller — Resolve-EV


The Resolve controller makes converting electric cars easy by using recycled parts from Nissan Leafs. The EV conversion kit makes it possible to use the motor, inverter, charger and battery pack from Nissan Leaf models from 2014-2021.




www.resolve-ev.com


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Sep 2022)

If you say so.


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## Stevekane (25 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> This looks interesting....?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw part of a tv program earlier this year where they converted a classic car to electric,,and I think one of the things they used was a gizmo like this, so the idea would be to either scrap or buy a write off Leaf and what then? Are there Leaf based Kit cars out there?
The thing that I found most interesting about the Hong Guang in my post above is its total lack of tech wizardry, no fast charge, no regen braking, just a simple electric motor and battery to give you a perfectly usable commuter car at mass market prices,,
Steve.


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## Ollie78 (25 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> This looks interesting....?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a company that sells bolt in electric kits for classic minis. And now Mercedes pagodas as well.
And several other companies who will convert classic cars to electric now.
I remember floating the idea for doing this with my Dad ( a lifelong vintage car owner) years ago . Looks like we should have done it, we would be ahead of the game now.

Ollie


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## clogs (25 Sep 2022)

SteveKane
I'd buy one tommorow if I could get it here at a similar price.....can't wait....
our more modern shopping car is a Matiz.......cheap to run but the electronic .....grrrrr....
it wouldn't do more than 50miles per week....no buses only overpriced taxi's.....


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## John Brown (25 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Yes thats the issue with acronyms, they tend to work only within a given enviroment, you reminded me of the day when instead of very expensive hardware emulation systems costing thousands Motorola's 68000 series came out with BDM, background debug mode that was part of the integrated developement enviroment IDE that was software. You must remember the likes of Greenhill and Introl !


Yes, I remember BDM. These days we have JTAG and SWD... 40 or more years ago I built my own system for debugging the 6502, which you could single-step. It had thumbwheel hex switches and LED displays...


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## Stevekane (25 Sep 2022)

clogs said:


> SteveKane
> I'd buy one tommorow if I could get it here at a similar price.....can't wait....
> our more modern shopping car is a Matiz.......cheap to run but the electronic .....grrrrr....
> it wouldn't do more than 50miles per week....no buses only overpriced taxi's.....


Im hoping a company like Toyota might suddenly bring a similer car to the market, recognise that low tech might actually be a good selling point,,,it would be a shame if the Chinese got here first and established a strong foothold, I guess the only thing holding them back is the massive domestic market, but if they saw it as a way of giving western car makers a kicking they might do it anyway!
BTW I would have one too, 50miles range is more than enough for our daily needs.
PS Ive just seen this, 
Baojun E100.​Its a great looking little car also Chinese in collaboration with GM again, a sort of Smart Car,,no doubt about the chinese are powering ahead already it seems.
Steve.


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## Jameshow (25 Sep 2022)

Stevekane said:


> I saw part of a tv program earlier this year where they converted a classic car to electric,,and I think one of the things they used was a gizmo like this, so the idea would be to either scrap or buy a write off Leaf and what then? Are there Leaf based Kit cars out there?
> The thing that I found most interesting about the Hong Guang in my post above is its total lack of tech wizardry, no fast charge, no regen braking, just a simple electric motor and battery to give you a perfectly usable commuter car at mass market prices,,
> Steve.


Would be great in a lotus 7, elise or early tvr!!


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## Jacob (29 Sep 2022)

Is the whole EV thing floating on bulls hit and speculation?








Shock therapy: turmoil engulfs Britishvolt’s £3.8bn battery factory


Future of company hailed by Boris Johnson as cornerstone of his ‘global green industrial revolution’ is hanging in the balance




www.theguardian.com


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## Noel (15 Oct 2022)

I see BMW is moving all Mini EV production (40k units pa) to China and any future EV production will be in Germany. ICE models will still be at Cowley although the plant may eventually be sold to a Chinese manufacture.


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## GweithdyDU (15 Oct 2022)

A modern twist on electric trolley-buses applied to large HGV's that looks interesting. Video here


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## Jacob (15 Oct 2022)

GweithdyDU said:


> A modern twist on electric trolley-buses applied to large HGV's that looks interesting. Video here


Excellent and very obvious idea. For public transport too. Being able to shift on and off the system makes it more flexible than railways.


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## Jameshow (15 Oct 2022)

Noel said:


> I see BMW is moving all Mini EV production (40k units pa) to China and any future EV production will be in Germany. ICE models will still be at Cowley although the plant may eventually be sold to a Chinese manufacture.


Typical inward investment! 

Political elite in our country sold off our industry years ago....


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## Spectric (15 Oct 2022)

GweithdyDU said:


> A modern twist on electric trolley-buses applied to large HGV's that looks interesting.


Only problem is that the trolley buses moved people around large towns and cities and not long haul between towns and cities. In essence we already have that concept, it's called the railway and if all goods were moved by train from ports to various distribution points then there would be no need for 40 ton lorries and so getting smaller electric lorries would be easier in the near future.

The thing about EV's for me is they are just cold machines with something missing that you get from an ICE, probably because I grew up with electric vehicles in the days when they delivered everyones milk.


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## GweithdyDU (15 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> Only problem is that the trolley buses moved people around large towns and cities and not long haul between towns and cities. In essence we already have that concept, it's called the railway and if all goods were moved by train from ports to various distribution points then there would be no need for 40 ton lorries and so getting smaller electric lorries would be easier in the near future.
> 
> The thing about EV's for me is they are just cold machines with something missing that you get from an ICE, probably because I grew up with electric vehicles in the days when they delivered everyones milk.


I am presuming from your response that you have yet to see the video. The whole point of the German development is designed for long haul NOT short haul, where rechargeable small trucks make loads of sense. BTW, there is very little capacity for freight travelling by rail in some areas of the UK. Rail can and should provide some of the solutions but there will be a need to transport large heavy stuff by road for some time to come yet.

I agree completely about leccy cars thus far being dull. If they're to succeed they need to be desired by people who enjoy motoring not just wealthy/comfortably off environmental activists and virtue signallers. Some smaller manufactures seem to be developing that sector and electric motor cycles look like they could be fun.


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## Spectric (15 Oct 2022)

Before looking to solve a problem look to see if the problem can be removed, so the problem is moving goods long distances around the country which is currently done by HGV's so rather than accomodate the HGV's on our roads with catenaries just remove them from our roads. This now reduces congestion and frees up room on the roads and will have some safety benefit, a lot of the railway is under used over night. Used to live within sight of the Liverpool street to Norwich line and very busy daytime with commuters but apart fro a very heavy goods train twice a week at around 2 in the morning it was quiet so that could take a fair load of HGV's off the A12.


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## Terry - Somerset (15 Oct 2022)

Reasons why rail for freight may be a less than convincing idea:

rail replacing HGVs means goods need to be handled at least twice as often 
most rail stations do not have goods yards where freight can be offloaded, possibly stored, and put on to smaller trucks for local delivery
every large HGV delivering to store will be replaced by somewhere between 3 and 5 smaller local vehicles in aggregate driving more miles
a lot of transit packaging and goods handling areas are optimised for pallet handling not obviously possible with smaller vehicles, or suitable for many goods. 
international trade is based almost completely around 20ft and 40ft shipping containers
None of these are deal breakers but potentially add materially to operating cost and the complexity of implementation. Autonomous smaller vehicles which eliminate the rail link and cost of drivers could make more sense.


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## Spectric (15 Oct 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> rail replacing HGVs means goods need to be handled at least twice as often


Not in all circumstances, port onto train to distribution centre and then smaller lorries to deliver, currently port onto HGV then to distribution centre where it may then go onto another HGV to customer, ie supermarkets. They use central distribution where everything goes into before being sorted and sent out to the shops.

I think we need to be realistic in what can be electric and what cannot due to power requirements. Tractors are another vehicle that have a high power demand, one of the solutions is to burn Methane like New Holland where the farmer can produce their own. 

There was a time when a lot more freight was carried by the railways, a lot of the goods yards were closed in the late sixties when there was a downturn in trade, no one could see where we would end up, now on some mornings you can pass twenty Amazon prime vans in a convoy.


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2022)

Spectric said:


> .......
> 
> There was a time when a lot more freight was carried by the railways, a lot of the goods yards were closed in the late sixties when there was a downturn in trade, .....


More an upturn in road traffic thanks to motorways, roadbuilding and the motor industry


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## Jameshow (16 Oct 2022)

If every RDC or cluster of RDC (regional distribution centre) was served by a rail terminal then the first step of goods shipped in from overseas could be done by train. I'm guessing transport managers like the ease of lorries.


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## sploo (16 Oct 2022)

It is way off the topic of electric cars, but yes, I have long wondered by long(ish) distance cargo delivery isn't done using rail and distribution centres. Rail feels like an ideal system to move a large number of heavy cargo containers a long distance across land (vs HGVs). Perhaps the rail infrastructure isn't there, or maybe the logistics of actually moving cargo onto rail and back off onto HGVs is actually more time consuming than going straight to HGVs?


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## Geoff_S (16 Oct 2022)

It does exist apparently. The UK's Leading Intermodal Rail Freight Operator | Freightliner

I know that I've seen TV programs featuring Eddie Stobbart and container rail services, but I think from a bit of Googling that he may have pulled out.


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## Terry - Somerset (16 Oct 2022)

Rail is hugely inflexible. 

The network of main lines and stations date back to Victorian times, modified by Beeching (amongst others) who closed lines with low volume use. Few new routes in the last 100 years.

Stations are not in the right place - firmly rooted in city centre locations. Establishing freight transfer and road access for local delivery would be costly (at best). Some met particular industrial needs which have long since vanished - eg: coal mining, agriculture, steel, potteries etc.

Simplistically new or extended rail lines should be no more difficult than a major road - but roads can accommodate steeper gradients, sharper bends, and include roundabouts and traffic lights to control intersections. Major rail needs costly bridges or tunnels.

Rail carries only trains on fixed lines. Users have to travel to departure points. On arrival at the destination, further travel to their journey end (walk, bus, taxi). Road carries freight, commuters, bicycles, tourists, tradesmen, domestic deliveries etc etc. They are completely flexible in providing a door-to-door capability.

I doubt whether a 19th century technology can be made fit for the 21st without leaving it seriously compromised. Far better to implement that which will be fit for purpose for the rest of the century making best use of the technology options available.

A proposition - existing rails should be scrapped. Lines tarmacked over, used exclusively for autonomously driven freight and passenger traffic, powered by induction loops (of some sort) and designed to rejoin the normal network for the leg to final destination. Eliminates most of the flaws in the existing network, removes heavy and volume traffic from the roads.


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2022)

sploo said:


> It is way off the topic of electric cars, .....


Not if you have an integrated transport system with energy saving as a priority.
It'd have to be state run - private enterprise can't do it. Battery EVs will probably end up for local use only.


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## powertools (16 Oct 2022)

I was born in Luton 70 years ago when Luton was a thriving industrial town I remember as a child a large railway goods yard and 3 wheel (I think that they were called scarabs or something like) that delivering the goods from the yard to factorys all over Luton.


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## Spectric (16 Oct 2022)

powertools said:


> that delivering the goods from the yard to factorys all over Luton.


That could be a modern problem in that we no longer have large industrial towns but more often smaller sized industry so more points needing deliveries.


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## TRITON (28 Nov 2022)

Cars of the futureeeeeee






I think we'll all going to struggle getting supplies from the sawmill.


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## clogs (28 Nov 2022)

Scamll Scarab, little artic truck or mechanical horse 



turns on a tanner...if u can remember them....
I can remember as a very young boy, my uncle used to drive one for Brit rail in Willesden, London...


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## Ozi (2 Dec 2022)

Toyota gets £11.3m to build hydrogen-powered pick-up truck in Derbyshire  
 And to compliment EVs for the jobs they won't handle. These fuel cells are really good, if run on Green hydrogen, a small part of the answer to how we store renewable energy. Just a shame it's not an English company, although they do employ a lot of people in this country.


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## John on the Wirral (2 Dec 2022)

I think it's Toyota that''s not producing any more elecric cars for the home market after this year. The problem is,I think,that they use anthrocite to produce the green hydrogen which they have imported from Australia but now have produced special tankers to transport the hydrogen that Australia will produce using their anthrocite. Clever as they will have a bigger footprint than Japan!


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## rogxwhit (2 Dec 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> A proposition - existing rails should be scrapped. Lines tarmacked over, used exclusively for autonomously driven freight


Whoa there! With rail there is the reduced rolling resistance of steel on steel compared to those squishy things called tyres, which presumably saves energy. Think of containers, logs ... and think of a quarry train of 22 wagons (as is commonly seen) carrying 75t per wagon - that's a payload of 1,650t pulled by one loco. Each wagon itself weighing about 25t, so the whole train weighs some 2,200t without the loco. You're going to put that on tyres??? :-(


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## Terry - Somerset (2 Dec 2022)

> Whoa there! With rail there is the reduced rolling resistance of steel on steel compared to those squishy things called tyres, which presumably saves energy. Think of containers, logs ... and think of a quarry train of 22 wagons (as is commonly seen) carrying 75t per wagon - that's a payload of 1,650t pulled by one loco. Each wagon itself weighing about 25t, so the whole train weighs some 2,200t without the loco. You're going to put that on tyres??? :-(


Look at it another way - UK freight movements in billion tonne kilometres - road 77%, water 14%, rail 9%.

Complete elimination of rail lines may not be the end game, but rail freight is small and a large part of that probably on Eurotunnel to a UK distribution depot.

Rolling resistance issues may be real but incidental - not a justification for retaining rail.


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## Ozi (2 Dec 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Look at it another way - UK freight movements in billion tonne kilometres - road 77%, water 14%, rail 9%.
> 
> Complete elimination of rail lines may not be the end game, but rail freight is small and a large part of that probably on Eurotunnel to a UK distribution depot.
> 
> Rolling resistance issues may be real but incidental - not a justification for retaining rail.


Strange argument if rail is the most efficient, even if it were the best 2% why loose it? Personally I have faith in the profit driven highly competitive transport industry to be always looking for the most profitable way to operate, which with the current cost of energy will be increasingly environmentally friendly....ish, well a bit.... I hope.


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## niemeyjt (30 Dec 2022)

Charging capacity is still an issue:

Tesla owners forced to wait in three-hour queues during Christmas car-charging chaos​
see: Tesla owners forced to wait in three-hour queues during Christmas car-charging chaos


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## flying haggis (30 Dec 2022)

If this guys figures are correct Royal Mail will make its self bankrupt simply by changing to electric vans !!!


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