# Rutlands tools



## Raymien (26 Dec 2020)

What is the general consensus on the quality of Rutlands tools? I think I read a comment on here somewhere saying they were effectively rebranded Chinese tools, and not all that great?

They seem well priced, but not crazy cheap?


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## thetyreman (26 Dec 2020)

I have some of their sash cramps and they are great, I don't think 6 clamps at around £100 is excessive for over a metre long and especially when you compare that to the price of vintage record sash clamps and what prices they go for thesedays, I don't use them too often but when I do use them they are very solid and have never let me down.


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## Blackswanwood (26 Dec 2020)

I have only bought from them twice (several years ago) and was disappointed both times.


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## Doug B (26 Dec 2020)

They have for a while had a dreadful reputation with a few exceptions. Years ago I bought 4 of their clamps but they didn’t stand up to regular use, several other purchases ended in similar disappointment. That said their casters have given sterling service & I’ve now had 4 sets of 4 over the years.

Never has the saying caveat emptor been been more appropriate than when buying from Rutlands.


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## Spectric (26 Dec 2020)

Raymien said:


> What is the general consensus on the quality of Rutlands tools? I think I read a comment on here somewhere saying they were effectively rebranded Chinese tools, and not all that great?


Nearly everything you buy will be made in Asia and you will find many tools and machines that will have so many similarities that it is obvious they come out the same door just with different color schemes and badges. If you want quality then look at companies like Veritas, Kreg, Jessem and the likes but even then you cannot rule out them being made in Asia but they do have good quality control if they are made there.


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## JandK (26 Dec 2020)

Spectric said:


> Nearly everything you buy will be made in Asia and you will find many tools and machines that will have so many similarities that it is obvious they come out the same door just with different color schemes and badges. If you want quality then look at companies like Veritas, Kreg, Jessem and the likes but even then you cannot rule out them being made in Asia but they do have good quality control if they are made there.


I do agree with the brands you mention with the exception of Kreg. Kreg tools imo are too plasticity and flimsy and expensive for what they are. The web is full of stories about their router plates sagging. Some of their tools can best be described as gimmicks to solve a problem that's not really a problem.


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## Spectric (26 Dec 2020)

Hi there

Take a look at Kreg router tables & fences, I have been using one with the Triton TRa001 and it is really a good setup, no sag in the plate and good fence. 
Then look at their pocket hole jigs, I believe they were the original for these and again work really well. The HD pocket hole screws are really good value for money and work well in 4 by 2's. When you need an aftermarket fence for your bandsaw then again the Kreg option is really great, works well on my BS400. There clamping range also works well with the pocket hole system and the KMA2900 multi mark is a handy tool to have around.


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## Bristol_Rob (27 Dec 2020)

I've bought there parallel clamps and have no issues with them.

I've also bought a few marking and measurement tools, again no issues.

I do think it matters what you buy.

But for me there life time guarantee makes buying from them a safe bet.
If it fails - send it back for a no quibble replacement. 
That's difficult to argue with in my opinion


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## --Tom-- (27 Dec 2020)

A company that filters out any negative reviews on their website is demonstrating their company ethics.

I bought from them years ago and doubt I ever will again unless it’s a known brand that isn’t available anywhere else.


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## Benchwayze (27 Dec 2020)

Doug B said:


> They have for a while had a dreadful reputation with a few exceptions. Years ago I bought 4 of their clamps but they didn’t stand up to regular use, several other purchases ended in similar disappointment. That said their casters have given sterling service & I’ve now had 4 sets of 4 over the years.
> 
> Never has the saying caveat emptor been been more appropriate than when buying from Rutlands.


Agree about their castors Doug. Nowt wrong with those

John


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## Droogs (27 Dec 2020)

Rutlands truly are a conundrum for the hobbyist. They have some excellent tools on their website in terms of design and usefulness. However they tend to have their kit manufactured to a price rather than to an "over engineered" standard. Probably with the idea of inbuilt obsolescence, calculating that actual usage time will only build over a very long time frame, so when the tool fails the buyer will return to get another as "I bought this ages ago, it's lasted well" is the hoped for thought.

This has lead to them having a very uppy downy reputation over the last couple of decades. they do in recent times seem to have had an epiphany on this and are now very much actively trying to change their image with a whole series of new tools and a campaign to try and link the idea of quality tools with their brand. Sadly a lot of their offerings are still just badge engineering and shinny paint, just look at the precision square bracket thread on here recently. I have purchased kit from them many times and have had mixed success. 

My thoughts are that they are trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to acheive the perceived quality of kit and service that Axminster has held over the last couple of decades, unfortunately at the same time as Axminster seems hell bent on achieving that of Rutlands. Perhaps they will meet in the middle and we will all be stuck with mediocre nice looking but unfit for purpose tat unless we go to china to get something that works properly and lasts. 

A final comment about China made goods. Just remember that China is where Japan was 50 years ago and Korea 20. No one thinks "made in Japan/Korea" to be a stamp of poor manufacture these days


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## stuartpaul (27 Dec 2020)

I’d agree that it depends what you buy but the acid test with any supplier is how they react when things go wrong and unfortunately I could write a couple of essays in relation to the truley awful customer service with representatives of the company telling downright lies.

What Droogs says may well be true but I’m afraid it will be an awful long time before I even look at their website again let alone shop there.


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## pcb1962 (27 Dec 2020)

I have bought from Rutlands many times over a lot of years, the quality of their stuff meets my expectations for the price I've paid. I had one customer service issue where they sent me the wrong machine and wouldn't dispatch the correct one until they received the wrong one back, i wasn't happy about that, but I'm perfectly happy to order from them in the future if they have what I need.


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## Farm Labourer (27 Dec 2020)

I echo Stuart Paul's comments above. They will not be seeing any more of my money.


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## Lonsdale73 (27 Dec 2020)

I bought quite a few bits and pieces from them when I was setting up. They were okay. One item was received damaged and they gave the option of partial refund or replacement. They dropped of the replacement and collected the damaged one without qualm or hesitation.


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## JandK (27 Dec 2020)

Almost everyone complaining about Chinese made tools but are happily typing away on products thats made 90 to 100% in China. How very funny.


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## AJB Temple (27 Dec 2020)

Droogs said:


> A final comment about China made goods. Just remember that China is where Japan was 50 years ago and Korea 20. No one thinks "made in Japan/Korea" to be a stamp of poor manufacture these days



Leaving aside the practices leading to Covid, which has brutalised many economies, China continues to have a truly appalling record of human rights and in effect slave labour. It controls freedom of speech (or lack thereof) as part of a communist regime which includes forced indoctrination of millions of people in ethnic minorities. It is amazing how easily we in the west set aside principles of freedom in order to save a few bob. Just saying


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## Raymien (27 Dec 2020)

Interesting replies. Thank you.
It’s their clamps that keep drawing me in - £120 for 4 x parallel clamps and £50 for 6 F clamps is difficult to ignore. Especially when I can’t justify over £200 on some Besseys.


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## marcros (27 Dec 2020)

It seems to be accepted by all that you always need more clamps. If you can get some and not break them, they will always have a use for them, even if you get better ones later that are your first choice for most jobs. 

Unfortunately if you need 4 clamps, you can't get away with telling the glueup, "ah but I bought 2 Besseys instead".

With that said, I won't buy them from Rutland's. I am lucky in that I have a few clamps already so am adding to my collection rather than starting it. I also have some long clamps, and am lucky that 300-600mm ones are cheaper than 1200mm+


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## mikej460 (27 Dec 2020)

I've bought a few bits from Rutlands with no problems, their feather boards are good quality and value. However, this is not the experience of far too many on this forum. I echo what others have said about rebadging Chinese tools, many of their newer measurement tools and clamps can be found on Banggood and often much cheaper, but they are often very good quality e.g. these

Clamping Square with Clamps | Next Day Delivery (rutlands.com)

are these

Drillpro woodworking precision clamping square l-shaped auxiliary fixture splicing board positioning panel fixed clip carpenter square ruler woodworking tool Sale - Banggood.com 

I've just bought 4 of the Banggood ones and they are excellent.


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## robgul (27 Dec 2020)

mikej460 said:


> I've bought a few bits from Rutlands with no problems, their feather boards are good quality and value. However, this is not the experience of far too many on this forum. I echo what others have said about rebadging Chinese tools, many of their newer measurement tools and clamps can be found on Banggood and often much cheaper, but they are often very good quality e.g. these
> 
> Clamping Square with Clamps | Next Day Delivery (rutlands.com)
> 
> ...



Yep - I saw a review (Dennis at Hooked on Wood) and bought 1 Banggood clamp to see if I liked it - came in 5 days! - excellent, 3 more are winging their way to me for a job that awaits. I noticed that Rutlands have loads of the Banggood/Drillipro kit but in black and twice the price rather than the red which is in turn a rip-off of Woodpecker stuff.


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## stuartpaul (27 Dec 2020)

JandK said:


> Almost everyone complaining about Chinese made tools but are happily typing away on products thats made 90 to 100% in China. How very funny.


It’s not funny at all, - just a reflection of different approaches to quality control!


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## Terrytpot (27 Dec 2020)

I've made quite a few purchases from them recently using the philosophy of "you know it's pretty cheap so don't be surprised if you're not impressed with it's quality". Annoyingly the most expensive item is the one I currently have an issue with in that it doesn't work! As the claim for that is still in progress I'll ignore it and refer to other items instead. Most of the items I went for I have been quite pleased with , like their Deep throat G clamps (would love some of the drop forged Axi ones as they are so much nicer but @£60 a pop hurts) which at £60 for a pack of 6 seemed very reasonable and I'm very happy with those. I think as long as you're not "betting the ranch" on your purchase and you use a modicum of that rare commodity, common sense, you'll be ok. If on the other hand you pay £15 and expect to get Festool quality ,you'll be rather disappointed.


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## Raymien (27 Dec 2020)

Again, thank you all for your comments. I too have some of those clamping squares from Banggod, and I have also found them to be excellent. I was lucky enough to get a woodpeckers square for Christmas and checking the clamping squares against that shows they're spot on.


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## Terry - Somerset (28 Dec 2020)

I have used Rutlands occassionally and had no problems.

It is clear that they have tried to build a business on the back of "cheap". No problem, but don't expect fillet steak for mince money.

As a hobbyist I generally place limited demands on equipment and tools, I accept that they are not the best, cost less but should be functional. A tool may get used for up to a few hours every week. It may last 5-10 years. 

Were I reliant on tools for my business and income it is very much less likely that I would buy cheap. Cheap frequently used tool or machine may fail after just a few months. Buy well and buy once is good advice.


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## billw (28 Dec 2020)

mikej460 said:


> I've just bought 4 of the Banggood ones and they are excellent.



Me too - I never realised they were £30 at Rutlands. £15 on Banggood.


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## DavidRa (28 Dec 2020)

Has anyone bought their 200mm wetstone sharpening machine. Tormek just seems so expensive. Buy 200mm Wetstone Sharpening System online at Rutlands.com


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## MarkDennehy (28 Dec 2020)

They seem to be the UK version of Harbour Freight in the US. A lot of what they sell is... well, you get what you didn't pay enough for. But some things are fine. My dust extractor came from them as well as a lot of consumables and those I've had no problem with. My first beginners woodturning toolset came from them as well and they were fine (I mean, any deficiency in the tools was more than masked by my cackhandedness). Their xact 3" (now "precision 75") chuck have been worth about what I paid for it (I bought two of them as ex-demo clearance stock), but after a year of use, I'm learning they've got limits (and if you can learn that after so little time on a lathe, those limits must be pretty significant). 

Better than banggood or aliexpress, not as good as others, but if you're just a beginner and you're not expecting the tool to last a lifetime (and expecting to graduate to better tools when you learn more), their price point is a pretty good one. I'd have felt awful ruining hamlet or crown tools learning how to sharpen turning tools, for example. 

How all that holds up post-brexit, I'm not sure; I think it won't from outside the UK, customs will be a bit of an issue on the pricing.


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## robgul (28 Dec 2020)

robgul said:


> Yep - I saw a review (Dennis at Hooked on Wood) and bought 1 Banggood clamp to see if I liked it - came in 5 days! - excellent, 3 more are winging their way to me for a job that awaits. I noticed that Rutlands have loads of the Banggood/Drillipro kit but in black and twice the price rather than the red which is in turn a rip-off of Woodpecker stuff.



The other 3 corner clamps I ordered on 19 Dec arrived this morning - from China - I can now finish the frames for the display cases I'm making 

And - I noticed Rutlands had these Buy MFT Clamps from Rutlands Limited - Rutlands at £50 a pair (Amazon has them £100!!!) - I bought a pair on @petermillard suggestion for £28 incl shipping from Banggood (that was the first order I placed with them and was dubious . . no problems with about 8 orders now)


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## alex_heney (28 Dec 2020)

I have only bought one thing from them, which was the previous version of this woodturning chuck kit Woodturning Chucks | Next Day Delivery

It was a fair bit cheaper then, at £119 rather than the £159 they are asking for the current one.

I have had absolutely no issues with it at all, having turned quite a few bowls, vases goblets etc. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to use it for a while, because we moved house in the summer, and I haven't yet got a workshop set up for the lathe


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## Shane1978 (1 Jan 2021)

mikej460 said:


> I've bought a few bits from Rutlands with no problems, their feather boards are good quality and value. However, this is not the experience of far too many on this forum. I echo what others have said about rebadging Chinese tools, many of their newer measurement tools and clamps can be found on Banggood and often much cheaper, but they are often very good quality e.g. these
> 
> Clamping Square with Clamps | Next Day Delivery (rutlands.com)
> 
> ...


Agreed. I thought I was making a mistake ordering from China, but I’m now in the market for 2 more. 
have you noticed though: package deals with 2 squares and 4 clamps work out more expensive than buying separates. I had hoped they’d come in a box with foam and be ‘self contained’ but no such luck. 
same with a lot of Banggood stuff.. they don’t really do package deals!
Having said that’s I use them all the time so they wouldn’t be interested he box much!


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## Shane1978 (1 Jan 2021)

robgul said:


> Yep - I saw a review (Dennis at Hooked on Wood) and bought 1 Banggood clamp to see if I liked it - came in 5 days! - excellent, 3 more are winging their way to me for a job that awaits. I noticed that Rutlands have loads of the Banggood/Drillipro kit but in black and twice the price rather than the red which is in turn a rip-off of Woodpecker stuff.


Saw the same review, bought 2 and now also waiting for 2 more. I’m becoming a big fan of drill pro and hongdui. I hope they can grow and maintain quality.


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## Raymien (2 Jan 2021)

I picked this up and it arrived a couple of days ago.

T Square

Obviously a copy of the Woodpeckers version, but less than a 1/6th of the price and I’m very happy with it. Paid £30 for the 400mm version, and putting it against my woodpeckers square it’s bang on 

Drillpro is putting out more and more woodpeckers clones - they even do this now, with a blatant copy of the hook end.

Hook rule

I’m waiting on a couple of these to arrive - at £16 each, they were worth a punt...

Quick clamps


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## billw (2 Jan 2021)

Shane1978 said:


> Agreed. I thought I was making a mistake ordering from China, but I’m now in the market for 2 more.
> have you noticed though: package deals with 2 squares and 4 clamps work out more expensive than buying separates.



Yeah I think they put deals on certain items forgetting that they also offer multiples - I bought 4 corner clamps the other day and it was a couple of quid cheaper to buy 4x1 than 2x2. 

Shame there's not more choice on Banggood really.


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## Shane1978 (2 Jan 2021)

Raymien said:


> I’m waiting on a couple of these to arrive - at £16 each, they were worth a punt...



They’re on my wish list. I very nearly ordered them, then I saw this:








56.16US $ |Carpenter's clamps ratchet type clamping clamps fixing clamps f clamps heavy duty clamping clamps fast heavy duty pressing plate|Clamps| - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




a.aliexpress.com





Ali express has specialist ‘shops’ too, like this one:

Ruby's Store





Ruby's Store - Amazing products with exclusive discounts on AliExpress


Discover the wide range of products from AliExpress Top Seller Ruby's Store. Enjoy ✓Free Shipping Worldwide! ✓Limited Time Sale ✓Easy Return.



a.aliexpress.com





It would be great if we could find a way to keep track of the various Chinese brands and their products - beyond the bish-bash-bosh and Hooked on Wood YouTube channels.


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## mikej460 (2 Jan 2021)

Raymien said:


> I picked this up and it arrived a couple of days ago.
> 
> T Square
> 
> ...


I'd be very interested in your opinion of the clamps


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## doctor Bob (2 Jan 2021)

I quite like Rutlands but rarely buy from them as I have trade accounts elsewhere.


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## billw (2 Jan 2021)

Shane1978 said:


> They’re on my wish list. I very nearly ordered them, then I saw this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those ratchet clamps look awesome but I'm confused about which type you'd actually get because there's the standard F clamps shown too an d the heading mentions both.


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## TheTiddles (2 Jan 2021)

stuartpaul said:


> It’s not funny at all, - just a reflection of different approaches to quality control!



Oh it’s hilarious, like a vegan in leather shoes or an animal rights activist who uses medicine

Aidan


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## Shane1978 (3 Jan 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Oh it’s hilarious, like a vegan in leather shoes or an animal rights activist who uses medicine
> 
> Aidan


Agreed.
It’s funny how people only care about human rights and freedom of speech AFTER they’ve bought their German-branded mitre saw (made in china) and BEFORE they buy their over-priced Woodpecker/Rutland tools (also made in China).
Ive said it before: we need a way to keep track of Chinese tools/brands that isn’t curated/controlled by companies like Rutland and woodpecker (who are ripping us off) and is a bit more transparent and comprehensive than the YouTube channels.


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## Shane1978 (3 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> Those ratchet clamps look awesome but I'm confused about which type you'd actually get because there's the standard F clamps shown too an d the heading mentions both.


Yes. and no reviews to show you what actually arrives. That’s a shame. They’ve only got one of each (8inch/10inch) left, so I’ll keep an eye on it.


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## Peter Sefton (3 Jan 2021)

Shane1978 said:


> Agreed.
> It’s funny how people only care about human rights and freedom of speech AFTER they’ve bought their German-branded mitre saw (made in china) and BEFORE they buy their over-priced Woodpecker/Rutland tools (also made in China).
> Ive said it before: we need a way to keep track of Chinese tools/brands that isn’t curated/controlled by companies like Rutland and woodpecker (who are ripping us off) and is a bit more transparent and comprehensive than the YouTube channels.



Woodpecker are made in America, paying decent wages and international taxes, they also do a huge amount of product design, development and promotion. The Chinese tools are complete copies with no R&D or real marketing expenses, they even use the Woodpecker photos and videos. These rip off companies do not pay or contribute the UK economy, where do the profits of these companies go after their polluting slave labour factories have stolen product IP.


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## billw (3 Jan 2021)

That’s slightly xenophobic Peter! The arguments about pollution do have to sides as well. British factories weren’t exactly clean when we were a developing nation, countries who are going through the developmental stage argue they have the same “right” to be more polluting whilst they are in the manufacturing phase and to some degree I agree.


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## Shane1978 (3 Jan 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> Woodpecker are made in America, paying decent wages and international taxes, they also do a huge amount of product design, development and promotion. The Chinese tools are complete copies with no R&D or real marketing expenses, they even use the Woodpecker photos and videos. These rip off companies do not pay or contribute the UK economy, where do the profits of these companies go after their polluting slave labour factories have stolen product IP.


We’ve left the EU. While we were in it I believed that people in Uk cared about environment, workers rights, international law and wanted to be global leaders. I now know the Uk is basically selfish, see themselves as the exception to every rule. So I say bring it on: Global Britain. No more sharing, cooperating, enforcing and backing up. Each for themselves.
realistically the cheap Chinese raw materials and tools have been an enabler for the Uk. They’ve created jobs and opportunities for Uk workers that wouldn’t be there otherwise. 
many of those workers (eg at Rutland) are living off the Mark-up on cheap Chinese goods. Others are able to offer a service that they couldn’t offer before. 
and a lot of the money comes back - Chinese students pay good money for a British education. London property is often priced for Chinese buyers - spending the money they made selling stuff to us. 
this is our new global reality. Did people think we’d vote for brexit then voluntarily pay more for EU/US tools??


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## Shane1978 (3 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> That’s slightly xenophobic Peter! The arguments about pollution do have to sides as well. British factories weren’t exactly clean when we were a developing nation, countries who are going through the developmental stage argue they have the same “right” to be more polluting whilst they are in the manufacturing phase and to some degree I agree.


The irony of a british person condemning the use of slave labour in a developing industrial economy. Or an American insisting that industrialised countries should respect international copyright and patent law.
We can’t change what they do in their country, all we can do is tax/regulate them out of our economy. Last time I ordered ‘cheap copies’ from China I paid no noticeable extra taxes. Which tells me that despite lots of froth in the media/online we don’t really care that much.


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## Peter Sefton (3 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> That’s slightly xenophobic Peter! The arguments about pollution do have to sides as well. British factories weren’t exactly clean when we were a developing nation, countries who are going through the developmental stage argue they have the same “right” to be more polluting whilst they are in the manufacturing phase and to some degree I agree.



I can't say I am proud of our history (mainly because I am not xenophobic) but to be fair they didn't understand the effects of pollution 150 years ago like we all do now.


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## stuartpaul (3 Jan 2021)

Shane1978 said:


> The irony of a british person condemning the use of slave labour in a developing industrial economy. Or an American insisting that industrialised countries should respect international copyright and patent law.
> We can’t change what they do in their country, all we can do is tax/regulate them out of our economy. Last time I ordered ‘cheap copies’ from China I paid no noticeable extra taxes. Which tells me that despite lots of froth in the media/online we don’t really care that much.


You know exactly what Peter meant and it's rather disingenuous to throw the slave issue at him don't you think? His point is extremely valid and if the Chinese copying is allowed to continued unhindered people will simply give up development work. But clearly plenty of fans of cheap stuff on here!


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## shed9 (3 Jan 2021)

The idea that the development of a country was historically a messy business literally, ethically and politically does not give licence to current and future countries to do the same. That is an absurd angle to take.
It's also slightly irresponsible to suggest the only way to impact those practices is to use buying and regulatory powers.


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## billw (3 Jan 2021)

shed9 said:


> The idea that the development of a country was historically a messy business literally, ethically and politically does not give licence to current and future countries to do the same. That is an absurd angle to take.
> It's also slightly irresponsible to suggest the only way to impact those practices is to use buying and regulatory powers.



You don't get cheap stuff by demanding that emerging economies run everything in brand new carbon-neutral factories using renewable energy, with higher wages and strict bureaucracy to ensure quality of life for all citizens. And people want cheap stuff, so everyone has to make a personal ethical decision about their purchasing habits.

If everyone stopped buying stuff from China and told Rutlands and Axminster etc that they won't be buying any more stuff until they sourced it from elsewhere, then you'll get change. As soon as they tell you it'll be an extra 10% you'll soon see a change in attitude.

Just an aside, if Britain was an emerging economy right now, and the US was telling us our economic development had to be by a load of rules they made up because they've already gone past the point where many of them apply to themselves, how would you feel? Two fingers up westwards I bet.


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## AJB Temple (3 Jan 2021)

As far as possible I have entirely ceased buying things from China. It is a Communist state, adopts slave labour, oppresses minorities and has an abysmal human rights record.


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## marcros (3 Jan 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> As far as possible I have entirely ceased buying things from China. It is a Communist state, adopts slave labour, oppresses minorities and has an abysmal human rights record.



Genuine question, how far has it been possible to do so, so far? Are most [complex] products not global now and would almost certainly have Chinese components in them?


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## Shane1978 (3 Jan 2021)

marcros said:


> Genuine question, how far has it been possible to do so, so far? Are most [complex] products not global now and would almost certainly have Chinese components in them?


exactly. Rules of Origin mean that a significant % of your ‘made in Germany’ tool could have been made in China. And that vagueness is on purpose - that’s exactly how nations, manufacturers and brands negotiate the ethical and price expectations of their customers - make it vague.


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## Shane1978 (3 Jan 2021)

shed9 said:


> The idea that the development of a country was historically a messy business literally, ethically and politically does not give licence to current and future countries to do the same. That is an absurd angle to take.
> It's also slightly irresponsible to suggest the only way to impact those practices is to use buying and regulatory powers.


Genuinely: how else do you impact Chinese production practices AND respect their national sovereignty? One option is to work together to exclude products made in ways we disagree from our economy. By regulation and taxation. 
Neither the US or UK has offered reparations for slavery or past copyright thefts. They’ve taken the leg-up it gave them and now assume the moral high ground. well China now has an army and economy big enough for them to disagree without fear of reprisal. Uk and us have both actively participated in creating a global supply chain for all things which obscures their sources and keeps prices down. 
the very existence of brands like parkside, scheppach, erbauer and evolution (and the livelihoods of all their employees) is down to these globalised supply chains and china’s unique ability to work within them. 
And what’s the actual r&d that goes into a red aluminium set square or t-ruler? Does colouring them red and marketing them very well give a company the right to control all future production of red aluminium t-rulers?
I’d argue this drives creativity. If you can’t monopolise your idea forever you’ll be forced to make something new.


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## billw (3 Jan 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> As far as possible I have entirely ceased buying things from China. It is a Communist state, adopts slave labour, oppresses minorities and has an abysmal human rights record.



Well apart from the first one (they're socialist, not communist - the party name is a bit outdated) I agree those things happen. The last one though, they just don't really care. "Rights" of their citizens are to live safely and with economic prosperity. We in the West want different rights, freedom, etc etc. I've been to a few major Chinese cities and whilst I found the police presence a bit overwhelming, on the other hand I wasn't going to be mugged or stabbed. 

People are very quick to judge Chinese society by our standards - why are human rights more important than economic and social rights? Because we say so. Are we definitely right? No.


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## AJB Temple (3 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> Well apart from the first one (they're socialist, not communist - the party name is a bit outdated)



Chinese Communist Party or CCP controls the other parties and if you think it is a socialist party then you are entitled to your beliefs. It operates along Leninist lines and has a well documented record of continuing to govern its population by force and oppression, including Hong Kong Chinese. If you believe the Chinese populace don't care then that is a belief that I don't share and I do not feel is substantiated. However, I am not seeking to start a political argument: more simply I decided when the Wuhan flu occurred and caused inter alia immense damage to global economies, that it was about time I stopped being accepting of the behaviour of China and now go to some trouble to avoid buying anything that is made there, especially if there is the risk of use of slave labour. One aspect of this is that tools and equipment (including IT where key component are sourced from China) must last for much longer. I don't need much. I most definitely do not buy clothes and such like made in China either. 

I am also somewhat anti Amazon now, as it is very destructive to local economies and pays next to nothing in tax as its American owner gets richer by the second and UK retailers and wholesalers struggle. It's reputation for tolerating counterfeits and remunerating people for positive reviews is also not good in my opinion. If I have to pay more I will make do with less. 

(This was not typed on a Chinese made computer by the way). 

Kind regards

Adrian


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## Blackswanwood (3 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> Well apart from the first one (they're socialist, not communist - the party name is a bit outdated) I agree those things happen. The last one though, they just don't really care. "Rights" of their citizens are to live safely and with economic prosperity. We in the West want different rights, freedom, etc etc. I've been to a few major Chinese cities and whilst I found the police presence a bit overwhelming, on the other hand I wasn't going to be mugged or stabbed.
> 
> People are very quick to judge Chinese society by our standards - why are human rights more important than economic and social rights? Because we say so. Are we definitely right? No.



Based on that view Bill where would you draw the line? Cotton picked by Uighirs who are working for free as part of a state programme (aka imprisonment) to re-educate them (aka brainwashing) to drop their religious beliefs is okay or a pair of trainers hand stitched by an eight year old in return for a daily wage of 20p?

I accept the point that judging other societies by our own way of doing things is not a good idea - human rights are quite different in my view though.


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## billw (3 Jan 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Based on that view Bill where would you draw the line? Cotton picked by Uighirs who are working for free as part of a state programme (aka imprisonment) to re-educate them (aka brainwashing) to drop their religious beliefs is okay or a pair of trainers hand stitched by an eight year old in return for a daily wage of 20p?
> 
> I accept the point that judging other societies by our own way of doing things is not a good idea - human rights are quite different in my view though.



Well I would say any degree of coercion in employment is unacceptable. The Uyghers situation is certainly shocking, but the Chinese view is that there should be absolute unity in their population and everyone should be "Chinese". As they keep saying, it's their matter and people should keep their nose out of internal affairs as that's the whole concept of sovereignty, which was a western concept in the first place. Not saying I agree, but I am saying I can see their point.


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## Blackswanwood (3 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> Well I would say any degree of coercion in employment is unacceptable. The Uyghers situation is certainly shocking, but the Chinese view is that there should be absolute unity in their population and everyone should be "Chinese". As they keep saying, it's their matter and people should keep their nose out of internal affairs as that's the whole concept of sovereignty, which was a western concept in the first place. Not saying I agree, but I am saying I can see their point.



That’s the ruling elite’s view of “Chinese” that everyone should be of course. I don’t see their point but will leave it there.


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## Terrytpot (3 Jan 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> I am also somewhat anti Amazon now, as it is very destructive to local economies ....


Without wishing to step on any toes I thought the above was worthy of a snippet from me. My first point would be have you not noticed the change in composition of our town centres/ high streets in the last few decades or so? Our society totally embraced the US love for a "one shop does it all" approach to the retail experience in not only accepting the supermarkets but then compounding the matter by embracing their love of Malls, or as we like like to call them "Retail Parks". All of this has led to the decimation of the diversity we used to enjoy right on our doorstep, replacing choice with what provides the biggest profit margin for global corporations. The average HIgh street now seems to be not much more than estate agents,charity shops,coffee/cafe shops and a Greggs! (Please don't respond with a "but what did the romans do for us? Law and order,sewage etc" response in relation to your high streets composition). It seems to me that the majority of our nation desires what they regard as a bargain more than they want anything else (oh,and a steak slice too please). As for Mr Bezo's operation..he employs 27,500 in the UK (granted,many of them are agency personnel and may have been born behind what used to be called an iron curtain) but there are plenty of others also employed off the back of his operation (speaking as a HGV driver who has done Amazon work and who know's many others still engaged in it from other companies) so it does have positive aspects as well. Whilst I applaud the sentiment of "taking a moral stance" to what you regard as morally reprehensible , I'm cast from the "don't throw stones brigade" and as such am prepared to cut a nation a little slack. I wholeheartedly agree that there are many nations whose morals and ethics are questionable , and I include ours in that, but I don't see an easy solution to the problem other than education and as I live close to a major University and several centres of further education that seem to be almost entirely populated by citizens from the far east it would seem that that's exactly what's already happening. My two penneth.


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## billw (3 Jan 2021)

I have friends who are car designers, IT consultants and engine builders - they all have one thing in common these days - they work as Amazon delivery drivers.

I'm not even 50 yet and I think the High Street concept is dead and buried and the whole campaigning to bring it back seems as awfully old school as getting our sovereignty back. 

My university has a lot of Chinese students. They're mostly female and spend their entire time in Selfridges/ Harvey Nicks and have little interest in studying hard because the simple fact of having had a British education elevates them above their peers. The universities don't care because they pay twice as much per year as UK students.

p.s. my other hobby is collecting Michelin Stars, but give me a Greggs cheese and onion bake or a Wetherspoons breakfast and I'm like a pig in dung.


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## Braddersmd (3 Jan 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> As far as possible I have entirely ceased buying things from China. It is a Communist state, adopts slave labour, oppresses minorities and has an abysmal human rights record.



May I ask how far is "as far as possible"? I noted you've mentioned not typing on a Chinese computer. Tablets? Phones? Watches, even theoretical Swiss ones? TV's and radios? Power tools, given where we are posting? How about security? House alarms, CCTV products? Heating and lighting?

I'm not asking you in a belligerent way, but with genuine intrigue. How far can you actually go, and still live a modern life - not go Tom and Barbara? I spent the bulk of my working career importing and exporting product manufactured in the Far East - the bulk of the latter years from China. So definitely from the other side of this particular debate. I spent many many years travelling to China, and have a great many friends still there. My experiences were that whilst wages were lower than here, they were raising year on year. I saw very little that could be described as communist. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that money and status are the two main drivers throughout.


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## AJB Temple (3 Jan 2021)

I am not going to get into a lengthy thread on this as I come here for woodwork (much less than I used to) not politics, so this response will be my last word on the subject. 

I agree the high street has been destroyed by on-line shopping. Along with silly parking policies and excessive business rates. I was glad to get rid of the commercial lease I had in Moorgate, London. 
The High street and many office blocks will revert to housing once government policy catches up with reality. This will help a regeneration of small shops but there is no going back. 
The quality of jobs in this country arising from Amazon is at the basic living wage level. Anyone who thinks that is a path to prosperity is deluded. On-line delivery drivers are under huge pressure to maximise drops and it is not what I would call quality of life. 
My personal choice to avoid goods from China is less than a year old. Prior to that I consumed in a way that I do not do now. Even then, I mainly bought German or British where possible. (I should add that as my first wife was Dutch and my children are half Dutch, I have dual nationality and my wife is German, I am not wedded to British isolationism). 
I have not bought any IT equipment, phones or cameras in the past year and have no intention of doing so for the foreseeable future. 
I do not buy imported food. We have a large kitchen garden and grow all vegetables that we need. All meat and fish comes from the UK. Mostly local in that I know exactly the farms it comes from and fish I buy from a proper fishmonger who is buying UK landed fish). I make all of our bread and it is UK grown and milled wheat. 
I only buy UK made clothes and shoes (but few as I have far more than I will ever need). 
I have not bought any machinery in the past two years, but I plan to do so. When I do it will be reconditioned Wadkin / Sedgewick. 
I do not buy Chinese made power tools (though I expect I have in the past - through ignorance). Most of what I do buy is purchased in Germany (where we live part of the time) and is German or Austrian. I doubt there are many Chinese bits in them but if there then I accept that I could not avoid it. 
My other main hobby is playing music, and I know for sure that my piano was made in Germany. I was there. 
Furniture etc I largely make myself. Kitchen appliances are all German manufactured. 

I shall see how it goes, but the reality is that as a wood hobbyist / house developer / renovator now, I am very well equipped and can probably continue without buying much until I die. 

My aim is to simplify my life, simplify my business interests, and not add to things which I find morally reprehensible. 

Kind regards, 

Adrian


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## billw (3 Jan 2021)

Braddersmd said:


> My experiences were that whilst wages were lower than here, they were raising year on year.



I often see the "but they pay them next to nothing" argument only for people to then state they love going abroad because they can get a beer for 50p. Yes you can.....because 50p to the local population is probably the same as you paying £3. My other half lives in Indonesia and she can go and lavishly party on a night out for £20 - try that in London and see where it gets you.


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## billw (3 Jan 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> <lots of stuff edited>



With all due respect Adrian it appears your lifestyle is not one that borders on the poverty line and you are probably more able to make those choices than most. Not a criticism of you or quite frankly anything else, just an observation.


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## Raymien (3 Jan 2021)

Well, this has escalated.

Starting to regret posting links to cheap tools now...


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## Braddersmd (3 Jan 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> I am not going to get into a lengthy thread on this as I come here for woodwork (much less than I used to) not politics, so this response will be my last word on the subject.
> 
> I agree the high street has been destroyed by on-line shopping. Along with silly parking policies and excessive business rates. I was glad to get rid of the commercial lease I had in Moorgate, London.
> The High street and many office blocks will revert to housing once government policy catches up with reality. This will help a regeneration of small shops but there is no going back.
> ...



Thanks for your well thought out reply. My post was not based in politics either. Certainly an admirable stance you're taking, and I wish you the best of luck. I mentioned Tom and Barbara rather tongue in cheek, it wasn't meant to be offensive, but it does appear you are self sufficient. I would however point out that almost all items with electronics that you buy from now on will have Chinese made components in them. Even the German kitchen appliances, let alone the cable used with everything - I was importing 4 containers full a month by the time I sold up.

In the early days of my visits there, I was taken to a factory three days on the bounce by different suppliers representing different industrial sectors. Each day a different sign above the door, and different products on display., Raised more than a smirk from the staff there by the end of the last trip. A definite eye opener to what was being made there, and the brands I saw whilst there over the years.


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## Braddersmd (3 Jan 2021)

Raymien said:


> Well, this has escalated.
> 
> Starting to regret posting links to cheap tools now...



Hahahaha. Don't - it was a useful heads up - lead to me finding something I'd been looking for!


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## Mooose (7 Jan 2021)

robgul said:


> The other 3 corner clamps I ordered on 19 Dec arrived this morning - from China - I can now finish the frames for the display cases I'm making
> 
> And - I noticed Rutlands had these Buy MFT Clamps from Rutlands Limited - Rutlands at £50 a pair (Amazon has them £100!!!) - I bought a pair on @petermillard suggestion for £28 incl shipping from Banggood (that was the first order I placed with them and was dubious . . no problems with about 8 orders now)



Thank you for the above - I ordered 2 sets from Banggood and they arrived in just over a week. Nice quality:


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## Raymien (7 Jan 2021)

My quick clamps arrived today and whilst I don’t have any others to compare them too, these seem of good quality. The handle and the ‘ratchet’ (inc the black part) are all metal construction, seemingly strong and robust. For £15 each delivered, I’m pleased.


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

Mooose said:


> Thank you for the above - I ordered 2 sets from Banggood and they arrived in just over a week. Nice quality:
> 
> View attachment 100458
> 
> View attachment 100459



Mine arrived too. I won't post the pics because they're the same.


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## TheTiddles (7 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> Well apart from the first one (they're socialist, not communist - the party name is a bit outdated) I agree those things happen. The last one though, they just don't really care. "Rights" of their citizens are to live safely and with economic prosperity. We in the West want different rights, freedom, etc etc. I've been to a few major Chinese cities and whilst I found the police presence a bit overwhelming, on the other hand I wasn't going to be mugged or stabbed.
> 
> People are very quick to judge Chinese society by our standards - why are human rights more important than economic and social rights? Because we say so. Are we definitely right? No.



Well we are totally off topic now, but maybe consider the irony of expressing your opinion about the rights and wrongs of protecting the rights of others being able to express an opinion when in some places they can’t. It might amuse you as much as it amuses me

By the way, you have no right to express an opinion about what I’ve said above... see how you like it 

Aidan


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## TheTiddles (7 Jan 2021)

Raymien said:


> My quick clamps arrived today and whilst I don’t have any others to compare them too, these seem of good quality. The handle and the ‘ratchet’ (inc the black part) are all metal construction, seemingly strong and robust. For £15 each delivered, I’m pleased.
> 
> View attachment 100464
> 
> ...



It might sound terrible but have you tried running a file over a tooth of that ratchet surface? I’d be interested to know how hard that bit is, that’s the bit that’ll take the most wear and making that hard is the enemy of the rest of the process to make that part, so it’s a real trade off and the “hard” part of engineering design

I still find it impressive they can even deliver an empty box for that price

Aidan


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## Peter Sefton (8 Jan 2021)

An interesting customer review just recieved.


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## Nelsun (8 Jan 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> An interesting customer review just recieved.


Or how about no contrasting markings at all? I've bought a couple of small small square things via Banggood with only "engraved" markings... which are damned near impossible to read. Life's too short to spend it squinting  While I do feel some of the Woodpecker gear is a solution looking for a problem; their common tools are worth crying for just-the-once.


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## johnnyb (8 Jan 2021)

slave labour is very alive and well in the UK... most car washes employ below minimum wage workers. many small businesses are supported by the state(benefit cheats or legit disabilities) ebay pay tax in Luxembourg amazon in Ireland. Chinese goods can be as good or better than US goods.of course what us goods have is an understanding of the way that market ticks. Chinese manufacturing is in a different league than manufacturing in the west.(nowadays) it won't be long before Chinese goods will be expensive(ala taiwan)


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## Raymien (8 Jan 2021)

Peter Sefton said:


> An interesting customer review just recieved.



I completely agree with that review, and I love my woodpeckers square and woodpeckers woodworking rule with hook end. Awesome bits of kit that I cherish.
But sadly I cannot justify buying all my tools from them, and so I supplement with the occasional Banggood version. The ones I have aren’t that far behind, but much much cheaper, so I’m enjoying the best of both worlds.


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