# Thein Seperator WIP - resurrected thread



## Krysstel (8 Dec 2011)

Warning ! Long thread with many pictures.
Please bear with me ....................

After going through 4 shop vacs with all the inherent problems of blocked filters, reduced suction and small capacity I’ve finally got around to doing something permanent and proper with my dust extraction. 
I set myself the following criteria :-
- fixed ductwork.
- no cables or pipes dragged across the floor.
- extraction from all my machines and power tools.
- remote start of extractor(s) from each machine and each power tool.
- minimal noise.
- minimal dust returned to the workshop environment.
- no reduction of suction due to blocked filters.

Initially I came close to buying a 2-motor Camvac combined with a small cyclone and big bucket, but at the last minute was persuaded out of it. I have a head room issue in my basement workshop which necessitates running all the fixed ductwork around the walls and with the last machine 13 meters from the extractor a Camvac, even with 4” ducts, would never have coped.
Plan B became a dual system with an Axminster ADE2200 HVLP chip extractor running through fixed ductwork and some kind of LVHP vacuum extractor for the power tools. I briefly considered using my existing shopvac with a Dust Deputy but there had to be a better way. Hanging on the wall in the basement we have a central vacuum cleaner unit which is connected via 2.5” fixed pipework to various suction outlets in the house. Essentially a wall mounted Camvac/Record LVHP extractor. Could I somehow also use this as my power tool extractor ?
The central vacuum cleaner has a 12V remote start circuit that starts the cleaner when a hose is plugged into one of the suction points. If I could utilise this facility, rig up a switch at the power tool end of the hose, and at the same time incorporate the mains power cable with the hose, then I’d almost have a Festools setup – maybe even better !
This is how I did it :-

The vacuum cleaner has a fine filter and exhaust direct to the outside. Obviously the filter would get blocked just as quickly as in a shopvac. I solved that problem by hooking it up via a Dust Deputy. The 2,5” flexible hose came from Rutlands. Exhaust pipe not finished in picture but now routed out through wall.






The vacuum unit, although quite powerful, has only one motor so I rerouted all the 2.5” pipework to give the shortest possible run. White pipe in the picture. The short branch to the right will go to my SCMS.





Above each bench I’ll mount a suction outlet adjacent to a power socket and, to run the 12V start circuit, a panel mounted car cigarette lighter socket. Power socket not yet installed in picture.





If I was to be able to incorporate the mains power cable with the extraction hose then I would have to replace the cable on each power tool with something similar to the plug & socket setup Festools use. After a lot of hunting I found these https://www.elfa.se/elfa3~eu_en/elfa/init.do?init=1





Modified Makita plunge saw





These are all the components I needed to rig up a complete extractor hose with integrated 12V start circuit and mains supply cable.
35mm extractor hose (from a central vacuum cleaner supplier)
Power tool adaptor (Axminster)
2-pole mains power mini socket. (Elfa Electronics)
Standard mains power plug (European type)
Small switch for 12V start circuit (not shown in picture)
12V plug (car cigarette lighter type) 
2 x 1,0mm2 mains cable with rubber sheath
2 x 0,75mm2 cable for 12V circuit.





Initially I’ve attached both cables to the hose with plastic strips but have a braided sleeve and some heat-shrink shroud on order which I hope will be a better solution.
This kind of thing although I’ve ordered mine locally http://www.cmwltd.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_22&products_id=266






Here’s the complete setup connected to my plunge saw. For the moment I’ve left the mains cable a bit over long until I decide the optimal length.
At the wall outlet end (temporary connection in picture) I plug the hose into the suction point, and the 12V plug and mains plug into their respective sockets. At the power tool end I connect the mini mains plug & sockets together and attach the hose. When I flick the small 12V switch the extractor starts and stops.





Does it work ?
This is the result after filling one DD bucket. Vacuum unit bucket on the right. The dust on the floor is all I managed to shake out of the filter. The level of suction has stayed at the same level the whole time.
Success !





Hope this was of some interest. I’ll post more as I develop the rest of the system and install the ADE2200 extractor, ductwork and homemade blastgates etc.

Mark





.


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## Krysstel (8 Dec 2011)

Anyone know what I've done wrong with posting the pictures ? The addresses show but not the actual pictures.

Mark


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## RogerS (8 Dec 2011)

Mark ...it's the fussy forum software. Any image tag needs to end in .jpg

Shame as the story looks interesting.

Roger


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## stoatyboy (8 Dec 2011)

linking to flickr is a right faff - which is why i dont do many wips

first make sure you've turned off disable BBCode on your options when doing your message

then on flicker open the photo and go to share

where it says grab the html/bbcode do the 'ctrl c' thing making sure you've selected medium size and html on the check box

paste it in between the Img bits like you've done

and then the annoying bit: 

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6437891877/" title="P9210255 by stoatyboy, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7027/6437891877_cfd4c16cc2.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="P9210255"></a>

see that lot above? delete everything from the start to the second http and then everything after the jpg.

and then it seems to work






now I have a suspicious mind and suspect there may be an easier way but this is what I do

oh and use the preview button to see if it works before pressing submit that way you don't look so much like a donkey if you get it wrong - I just did and realised i'd not turned off the disable BB code so no picture sorted.

i think there is some proper instructions somewhere if you do a search

hope that helps


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## Krysstel (8 Dec 2011)

Fixed the pictures. There now on Photobucket :wink: 

Mark


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## 9fingers (8 Dec 2011)

Best solution!
Photobucket is dead easy. FlickR is a PITA!!


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## Blister (8 Dec 2011)

Looks like you have achieved all your goals 

User friendly neat system 

Well done =D>


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## Krysstel (11 Dec 2011)

This is as far as I've got to date with the chip extraction (HVLP system)

The 6" duct top-left will continue another meter to the extractor.
After the 2 droppers to the PT (will be replaced by a Jet 260 after the new year) the duct reduces to 5" past the light fitting and then down to 4" soil pipe around the rest of the room. Droppers for pillar drill, under TS and router table. The 2 points at roof height will be for the TS crown-gaurd and the router table fence. The last dropper is for a floor-sweep/Gulper.










This is what the whole room looks like now after I'd panelled all the walls and hidden the 4" soil pipe behind. I plan to mount the blastgates directly at each flange where they come through the walls and use them as adaptors from the fixed ducting to 4" flexible hose. 





Mark


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## MickCheese (11 Dec 2011)

Looks great and very interesting, thanks for posting.

It looks like you work in a cave!

Mick


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## 9fingers (11 Dec 2011)

If you are using the 'one sided' type gate from axminster and the like, I strongly advise that the gate is such that flow is vertical. If you must have the flow horizontal make sure the gate opens downwards.

With out this you will have problems with gates not closing fully.

Also always close gates with the extractor running.

Bob


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## woodbloke (11 Dec 2011)

9fingers":2m6we7y1 said:


> If you are using the 'one sided' type gate from axminster and the like, I strongly advise that the gate is such that flow is vertical. If you must have the flow horizontal make sure the gate opens downwards.
> 
> With out this you will have problems with gates not closing fully.
> 
> Bob


Bob, so what you're saying is if the pipe run is horizontal and there are gates in the run, they should open downwards, yes? If so, I'll need to swivel mine through 180deg on the 'morrow - Rob


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## 9fingers (11 Dec 2011)

woodbloke":21izwb03 said:


> 9fingers":21izwb03 said:
> 
> 
> > If you are using the 'one sided' type gate from axminster and the like, I strongly advise that the gate is such that flow is vertical. If you must have the flow horizontal make sure the gate opens downwards.
> ...




Correct. I have also added to my earlier reply that the gates should only be closed with the extractor running.

Bob


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## woodbloke (11 Dec 2011)

9fingers":qndgg8nh said:


> woodbloke":qndgg8nh said:
> 
> 
> > 9fingers":qndgg8nh said:
> ...


Thanks for that Bob, I'll get mine altered first thing in the morning - Rob


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## Krysstel (11 Dec 2011)

> If you are using the 'one sided' type gate from axminster and the like, I strongly advise that the gate is such that flow is vertical. If you must have the flow horizontal make sure the gate opens downwards.
> 
> With out this you will have problems with gates not closing fully.
> 
> Also always close gates with the extractor running.



I'm planning to make my own gates to fit the ends of the fixed pipework on one side and flexible hose on the other. Should be no problem to have them opening downwards although I don't completely understand why this should make a difference. Can you explain ?

Mark


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## 9fingers (11 Dec 2011)

Dust gets compressed into the corners of the gate housing and eventually the gate will not close fully. Not only does the gate then leak but it whistles too

If you are making your own gats then use the type where the gate protrudes on both sides. In this design, there is no where for dust to collect.

Bob


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## Krysstel (12 Dec 2011)

MickCheese":5cr8erjr said:


> Looks great and very interesting, thanks for posting.
> 
> It looks like you work in a cave!
> 
> Mick



Basement under the house. 3 room in a T-shape. Total approx 30m2.
Walls are 1m thick stone so easy to heat and stays (almost !) the same temperature all year even when it's -20 outside . 
4 windows along one side so it's not dark.
Only problem is the 1,9m (just over 6 feet) ceiling height :shock: 

Mark


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## sometimewoodworker (30 Dec 2011)

Krysstel":3kss4o71 said:


> .
> 
> 
> If I was to be able to incorporate the mains power cable with the extraction hose then I would have to replace the cable on each power tool with something similar to the plug & socket setup Festools use. After a lot of hunting I found these https://www.elfa.se/elfa3~eu_en/elfa/init.do?init=1
> ...


Can you post a link to these as I can't find them on th site
Thanks


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## Krysstel (30 Dec 2011)

sometimewoodworker":1hx21f7c said:


> Can you post a link to these as I can't find them on th site
> Thanks



Here's the male https://www.elfa.se/elfa3~eu_en/elfa/init.do?item=43-865-34&toc=20259 with link to the circlip.
Here's the female https://www.elfa.se/elfa3~eu_en/elfa/init.do?item=43-865-40&toc=20259

Mark


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## 9fingers (30 Dec 2011)

Another possibility would be standard IEC connectors like the ones used for PC mains leads. These are available as male and female, cable mounted and should be much cheaper and only a little larger than the above type.

Bob


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## sometimewoodworker (30 Dec 2011)

9fingers":1ioj4jx4 said:


> Another possibility would be standard IEC connectors like the ones used for PC mains leads. These are available as male and female, cable mounted and should be much cheaper and only a little larger than the above type.
> 
> Bob


Great idea. I have lots of those around from dead computers. I would only need the cable mounted sockets. =D>

Thanks for the links Mark.


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## Krysstel (31 Dec 2011)

IEC type connectors are the obvious choice, easy to get hold of and cheap. However, I was worried they would too easily come apart (male/female) without some form of mechanical locking, bayonette or similar. You should also consider the dust ingress problem and I doubt normal computer type IEC connectors have a particularly high IP rating.
The ones I've used are not completely ideal and I don't like that clip affair flapping about all the time, but they are rated IP54 and at the time were the best I could find.
You may want to check out RS Components http://uk.rs-online.com/web/ and look for XLR connectors with bayonette locking.

Mark


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## Krysstel (6 Jan 2012)

I mentioned braided sleeve earlier. Here's the complete 4m extraction hose with said sleeve installed. Instead of heat shrink shroud I sealed the ends with thin duct tape.
230VAC mains plug and 12VDC starter plug at right.
230VAC mini mains plug and 12VDC starter switch at left.

Mark


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## Krysstel (21 Feb 2012)

And so to the chip extractor (HVLP) system.
I'd already installed most of the fixed pipework in the walls as shown in earlier posts/pictures.
First thing to fix was blastgates. I took Bob (9fingers) advice and made them straight through type.

Sides from 19mm MDF, gate plate from 6mm.
One side is an Axi hose joiner cut in half (2 gates from one adaptor :wink: ).
The other side is a short length of soil pipe.
Both attached with 3x20mm countersunk screws and then sealed round with silicon.





The gate is simply pushed onto the end of the fixed pipe protruding from the wall (rubber gasket) and then screwed to the wall with a long screw and spacer (bits of electrical conduit) in each corner.
Open position.





This one's for the floor-sweep/Gulper. The other two adjacent are for under the table saw and under the router table.
The wing bolt (in a captive nut) locks the gate so gravity doesn't take over :wink: 
Closed position.





I admit they're not very pretty but hopefully they'll do the job - for almost zero outlay.
I've not hooked up the chip extractor yet so have no idea whether they work, but I'm hopeful  

Mark


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## Krysstel (6 Mar 2012)

Have finally completed the chip extractor system.

The Axminster ADE2200.
I hung the fan from the roof to keep the intake as short as possible. Out from the fan, round the corner to the workshop and past the PT is all 6" pipework.






Two droppers and blastgates to the PT.






After the PT the pipework reduces to 5" for about 1,5m and then down to 4" soilpipe which I've hidden behind the wall panelling.
Next machine is the pillardrill.






Then round the corner and along the back wall to two outlets at roof height for the router table fence (am building a new router table now) and TS-crownguard, and then 3 droppers to outlets at floor level for under the router table, under the table saw and for the Gulper/floor sweep. You can just see the floor sweep, with extendable Rockler hose, in the first picture.
Lastly the pipe continues at roof level to the bandsaw.






That's it  

Oh, and it works :wink: 

Mark


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## Krysstel (1 Jun 2015)

3 years on and I'm back  

Time to resurrect this thread I think  .
The Axi extractor has worked just fine but cleaning out that filter is a pain in the butt :x 
I don't have the space for a full blown cyclone so decided to go for next best and make a Thein Seperator. 
The design is basically Pitbull's http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=429.msg2187#msg2187 but with a number of my own changes. 

Here's what I've done so far :-

The bin is purely coincidentally the same 120 litre drum Pitbull used.





The bottom (and top - not shown in pictures) are 15mm ply (Pitbull used MDF)
The side I made from 16mm MDF in the same way as Pitbull but the other way round, with the relief cuts on the outside. I tried his ply bending method but mine snapped every time  I'll probably cover the outside with thin plastic sheet to cover up the splits.
To save on materials I cut the strip from the width of an 8 x 4 sheet and then joined on short peices at either end to extend to the required 1,6m. Joined with biscuits and glue and clamped along the bench with dogs and one of those Veritas pup things.





More to follow.
Chears
Mark


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## wallace (1 Jun 2015)

I made a big thein baffle that sits on top of a 55gallon barrel. To make the curved wall of the baffle I cut a section from another barrel and then cut a slot in the top and bottom to hold it in place


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## Krysstel (18 Jun 2015)

I decided to try to make the intake transition as smooth as possible by using thin steel plate. Needed a lot of fiddling with a nibbler but I got there in the end. The plan is to fill the void around the intake pipe with insulation foam and then seal everywhere with silicon.







The top of the seperator has a 16mm wide x 6mm deep groove in the understand so it sits tight over the bent MDF side. The whole lot will then be held together by threaded studing into captive nuts on the underside of the bottom flange.

One thing I forgot to mention is that all the pipes are 6 inch (not the normal 4") and the seperator is sized accordingly.

Nearly there now  

Mark


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## No skills (18 Jun 2015)

If you need to try kerf bending ply again try and cut right into the last lamination and use some hot water on the ply, worked for me on quite a tight radius with 12mm plywood.


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## Krysstel (13 Jul 2015)

Blended in the intake with glass fibre body filler






The easiest way to fill the relief cuts was with loads of thin MDF strips. When the glue is dry I'll sand back and finish with a smear of filler.


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## Krysstel (13 Jul 2015)

All sanded and ready for the top to og on. 






I put the whole thing on a simple base With casters.
Ready for Paint.


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## Krysstel (13 Jul 2015)

View inside showing downpipe.






Small ply blocks on the ends of the threaded studs.

Mark


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## Krysstel (21 Jul 2015)

A couple of pipe connections to sort out but otherwise finished.
The exhaust connection is temporary until I can get hold of a length of 5 inch flexible. The plan is to run the exhaust straight out through the wall (as now connected) during the summer and via the filter during the winter.






Reduced waste bag under the filter


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## Krysstel (6 Sep 2015)

I was expecting the introduction of a seperator would adversly effect the performance of the system but had nor reckoned on how much :shock: 
After studying things for a few days I concluded that the main problem was the complicated duct arrangement above the PT and the sloping duct down to the seperator. Also, the pipe between the extractor and the top of the seperator was probably both too long and not straight enough.
The following pictures show the modifications I've now made, before and after.
The improvement has been dramatic and the suction is now better that it was before I added the sperator. A real result  





















The branch that used to go to the planer I've now extended straight down to the floor and built a floor-sweep at the bottom in addition to a take-off for the "hoover" hose.






Mark


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## sometimewoodworker (7 Sep 2015)

Krysstel":19sqlnws said:


> I was expecting the introduction of a seperator would adversly effect the performance of the system but had nor reckoned on how much :shock:
> After studying things for a few days I concluded that the main problem was the complicated duct arrangement above the PT and the sloping duct down to the seperator. Also, the pipe between the extractor and the top of the seperator was probably both too long and not straight enough.
> 
> 
> ...



Another reason for less good performance is your very long lengths of flexible hose. The flexible section should be as short as possible because it is a very big reducer of airflow due to the corrugated nature of the walls.


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## Krysstel (7 Sep 2015)

sometimewoodworker":1xb0m6un said:


> Another reason for less good performance is your very long lengths of flexible hose. The flexible section should be as short as possible because it is a very big reducer of airflow due to the corrugated nature of the walls.



I agree and I'm planning to reduce some of them as much as possible - particularly the one to the table saw crown guard.
The long hose in the last picture is an expandable floor-sweep hose not a hose that I use to connect to any machine.

Mark


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