# How do you sharpen turning tools?



## devonwoody (3 Jul 2008)

without spending a fortune as well? :wink:


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## PowerTool (3 Jul 2008)

Personally,freehand on a Perform widewheel grinder,skews generally on diamond sharpening stones or an oilstone.
If you search the forum for "sharpening jig",there are a few ideas for home-made jigs for sharpening gouges with different profiles.

Andrew


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## Anonymous (3 Jul 2008)

similar to Andrew 'cept everything gets done on the grinder... using an axmin grinder platform (<£20)

for long swept back grinds I use an axmin drill sharpening jig (<£10 when I bought it) modified a bit :wink: 

no expense spared :lol:


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## chippypah (3 Jul 2008)

Sorry all mine is done on a tormek, so easy for me to use one handed.
Cheers
Pete


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## devonwoody (3 Jul 2008)

Many thanks for the inspiring ideas above, a good choice there.

The chisels coming are TCT, recommended by Mr. A............ will they sharpen or will it be cheaper to buy new ones when things go downhill?


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## Bodrighy (3 Jul 2008)

Sharpening is as much a personal thing as in flat work. The tools that you use depend on what you get used to IMHO. I started off with some Carbon steel ones I was given and then some HSS posh ones later on and still use both. I also frehand sharpen mainly 'cos I am too tight to buy a jig and too lazy to make one. I do them on a grey wheel on a Record grindstone. 

If you Google 'woodturning sharpening' you will et loads of hits resrding the subject. Best thing is find the method that suits you best.

Pete


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## loz (3 Jul 2008)

Hi,

Im currently building a jig as per this site ( well when i go to b&q to get my required thumbscrews ) - Looks to be simple enough,

http://aroundthewoods.com/sharpening03.html


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## CHJ (3 Jul 2008)

John a normal Aluminium Oxide (white) wheel of 80-100 grit is fine for HSS, as has been said you may wish to make yourself a jig up to help get the profile on your bowl and spindle gouges.

Main thing to remember is that regardless of whether you are using a jig or freehand the final profile of the cutting edge and the bevel is down to you and how long you keep the tool in contact with the wheel.

If you have not got a copy already I strongly suggest you purchase Woodturning: A Foundation Course (New Edition 1999) 
by Keith Rowley 

It is just about 'The' bible on turning and gives safety and tool sharpening guidance in a down to earth manner.

A couple of simple jigs that may give you some ideas.

Here

and Here

But as mentioned there are countless versions referred to on this forum and elsewhere if you do a search.


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## devonwoody (3 Jul 2008)

Thanks Chas. Printing out for another jig to make.


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## T.allan (3 Jul 2008)

Hi everybody, I've sharpened my tools by hand and they cut well if they are absolutely sharp. I aquired aset of second hand tools to practice with and have learnt by experince that the bestway to find out HOW" is to try it for yourtself and that guideline came from asn expert


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## T.allan (3 Jul 2008)

and don't laugh at my spelling


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## Anonymous (3 Jul 2008)

err... Y knot ?


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## Bodrighy (3 Jul 2008)

Don't worry, I've got a dyslexic keyboard as well

Pete


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## Anonymous (3 Jul 2008)

you're not the only one Pete...I'm getting spam for *Vgaira* 

...must be a new one, still not as good as _Lust_ :lol: :lol:


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## Bodrighy (3 Jul 2008)

oldsoke":xd8j1ty5 said:


> you're not the only one Pete...I'm getting spam for *Vgaira*
> 
> ...must be a new one, still not as good as _Lust_ :lol: :lol:



Now that rings bells....sure I've heard of that somewhere  

Pete


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## CHJ (3 Jul 2008)

devonwoody":39g0k6ld said:


> ......will they sharpen or will it be cheaper to buy new ones when things go downhill?



Just taken note of your comment John, even with your mini lathe you could well be sharpening a tool a couple of times on one job.

If you *think* it needs sharpening you are already past the point when you should have visited the grinder.

Not a big chore once you get into turning, just don't get bogged down trying to get an ultimate edge as though it's a Philly Plane, a few revs of high speed wood can/will remove the finest edge super quick.


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## Blister (4 Jul 2008)

I use a water cooled Tormec system , costs a bit more in the long run :?: 

But does it ? 

I have tried dry grinding and did not get on well with it for 2 reasons 

1 it does not take long to turn the chisel end blue :? 

2 without a jig / doing it free hand I could not get a consistent accurate edge 

with a jig system that is water cooled I get good repeatability , and don't grind too much off the cutting edge , and being water cooled never overheat the cutting edge 

SO my chisels last longer :lol: :lol:  

works for me :wink:


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## duncanh (4 Jul 2008)

Blister - I've read and heard a couple times that bluing through heat doesn't damage your tools if they're HSS. That being said, if they blue regularly or all over then you're applying too much force - you don't need to press the tool into the stone.
If you use a jig on a high speed grinder then it's easier to keep the tool moving over the stone and avoid the bluing. You would also get the same repeatability that you get from your water cooled grinder with jig.

Having said that, I've never used a wet grinder so can't really compare.

The reason I got the high speed was the price  I've never had a reason to swap.


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## Hans (4 Jul 2008)

You can have the best of both worlds:
- sharpen on a water cooled system, which is efficient in time and material.
- (re)Grind on a high (or medium) speed grinder with the jigs of the water cooled system.

Downside: It takes more space and money.

Hans


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## Stu in Tokyo (4 Jul 2008)

I use a slow speed 8" grinder, and a set up I built myself, it works well, and did not cost me a lot of money.

Cheers!


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## davegw (4 Jul 2008)

I have to agree with Allen - The Tormek is the one for me, and the jigs are nice and easy to set up so that I can turn around and resharpen throughout the project without much pain.

If I could sharpen freehand I am convinced that I'd be better off with a dry grinder, but I can't and I don't have the kind of time I'd need to practice to get to that proficency, so the Tormek is the one for me 

It's not an exageration to say I would have given up on Turning if it wasn't for the Tormek, I found it so hard to sharpen tools without completly ruining the edge I couldn't produce a single quality item.


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## greybeard (4 Jul 2008)

Started freehand, cheapy Clarke grinder IIRC, blued most things. But managed to restore - approx - chisel edges from screwdriver type abuse. And reshaped hammer head to be flat and round again (after brick splitting practice).

Discovered turning. Realised much learning/practice required.
Brought Draper combination wet n dry (flat wetstone), and was generally pleased.

Found this site, lurked - read and read and read, and then read some more. 
Spent chunk of bonus on Tormek....and only then realised just how poor my previously obtained edges had been.

Now it varies, sometimes the Draper drystone......but mostly the Tormek. Not always with the jigs (fiddly at first!), but have learnt - eventually - that fiddly is good!


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## rsser (8 Jul 2008)

There's a comparo of dry grinding vs wet grinding/honing on the performance of spindle tools in issue 70 of Woodturning. 

Dry grinding forms a hard burr which is difficult to remove with a slipstone and which compromises tool performance. 

The test didn't look at bowl tools. 

I can't afford a Tormek in any case so just live with the burr ... but it's starting to cause an itch ;-}


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## Tusses (8 Jul 2008)

When I am turning , I keep a bobbon sander in my drill press. as I am turning, I just kep freshening the edge on the sanding wheel form time to time.


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## TEP (8 Jul 2008)

When grinding/sharpening any edge wet or dry you will always get some sort of wire or burr on the edge. Yet as soon as it goes to the wood the burr is broken off.

Some of the 'old timers' used to stab the freshly sharpened edge into the end grain of a piece of their bench to take the burr off. Personally I don't think it really makes a lot of difference, do whatever is good for you. In turning there is so much wood passing under the edge in such a short time that it doesn't really matter, your at the grinder so often anyway.


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## rsser (9 Jul 2008)

Yes, I used to think that but acc to the Farrance article in Woodturning, while spindle cutting the burr from dry grinding is very hard and lasts for several minutes. When it does break down, it's possible to conclude from his tests that cutting performance improves briefly before the tool is properly dulled.


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## CHJ (9 Jul 2008)

rsser":37cqk12w said:


> ...... When it does break down, it's possible to conclude from his tests that cutting performance improves briefly before the tool is properly dulled.



He is lucky to get two bits of wood, or even one for that matter, that behave/s consistently enough to be able to tell the difference, I never can.

Persons who consistently use the same wood type for their niche work, Japanese Dolls, Fine porcelain like Pierced Work etc. obviously have a better chance for comparison. Earlier This year I waited for a Russian Turner (of Dolls) to spend 20 minutes honing his skew like tools on a traditional slipstone, before he achieved the 'shaving test' and then proceed to shape wood not dissimilar to Lime very skillfully, I could have achieved the same or better edge on a honing wheel in 10 seconds, go figure the relative merits if you are earning a living.

I have played around with Dry grind, Wet grind, Honed, Diamond dressed, with Burr, without Burr and have never yet had the same consistent results on two different samples of wood let alone different species.

Of course it may be just my lack of professional aptitude but I doubt there are many turners who are earning their living at quantity production rates that bother about such niceties.

I often watch demonstrations of quality turning with very sharp tools that produce off the tool items that are good to go and show excellent tool control etc. But I also know that I could hand them a piece of similar looking wood that would be impossible for them to achieve the same finish.


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## Paul.J (9 Jul 2008)

I use the Perform dry grinder now,from Axminster using the Sorby jig.
Getting a lot better cut and the edge seems to last a lot longer  
Before this i was using a wet grind,home made Tormek style,but free hand grind.


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## Bodrighy (9 Jul 2008)

At the end of the day John you are used to using tools that are really sharp, honed with secondary bevvels that you can shave with. Look at the amount of wood that is on the floor when turning and ask .yourself how long it would take to shave all that off when making boxes. and how many time you would be at your stone rehoning. I am lousy at sharpening and probably have a different bevel every time I sharpen a gouge.  I make sure my bevel is on the wood before cutting and so far I find that I am achieving a reasonable finish that gets better with practice. 
So much depends as Chas said on the wood that you are using, your skill level and the tool itself. 

I think it was Bonnie Klein who said that the most important tool in a turners toolbox was the sandpaper, (heresy to some :evil: ) but since I found bronet and started going through the grades properly my lack of sharpening skils have become less apparent 

Pete


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## rsser (9 Jul 2008)

Farrance used samples of English Ash and Radiata Pine for the tests.

Given it was spindle turning it wouldn't be too hard to get several pieces from the same long that you could expect to cut similarly.

Yes, the study was some distance from a double-blind randomised trial in which all variables were controlled apart from the experimental one. Nonetheless, it's the only one of its type that I know of and it shook my belief that honing was a waste of time.

It didn't deal with scrapers or faceplate work - a whole new field for the microscope equipped obsessive ;-}


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## CHJ (9 Jul 2008)

rsser":3bhua7km said:


> ........ it's the only one of its type that I know of and it shook my belief that honing was a waste of time.



I have found that honing of the metal adjacent to the cutting edge (I.E. polishing it) is an advantage to the free flow of chippings.

However unless you are very and I emphasize *Very* careful when honing a bevel it is easy to round over the very edge of the bevel such that the cutting edge is extremely sharp but will appear as blunt when presented to the wood because the cutting edge is held a minute fraction above the wood surface by the bevel, this only cuts when the tool is lifted and of course then the bevel is giving minimal support and can "dive" into the wood.

On Hand carving tools this is not a problem but on a rapidly spinning bit of wood it can be disastrous.

This is I believe why several kits of Honing wheels/compounds sold for Carving tools carry a note to the effect " Not suitable for Turning Tools"

Even sharpening on a belt sander may give this effect if the belt is not well tensioned as the belt tends to lift as the pressure reduces as it leaves the cutting edge (wave effect) especially if pressure is applied to the tool.

I know I am not capable of honing the bevel on a turning gouge consistently and with speed on anything other than a very hard honing substrate, polishing the gouge flute on a beveled wheel is less likely to cause a noticeable problem in my experience. I do regularly hone the bevel on skew chisels.

This is just my take on the subject many others disagree entirely, in the end you try it yourself and if it works go for it.


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## rsser (9 Jul 2008)

Yes, I agree that dubbing the edge is easy to do when honing.

I wonder if our HSS gouges acquire a wear bevel on the flute? (as per Brent Beach's images of plane iron wear). If that occurs, we'd have to be grinding past it every time we sharpen in order to maintain bevel geometry. Honing only wouldn't be enough. Just a thought.


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## CHJ (9 Jul 2008)

You are grinding away material sharpening far quicker than any wood wear on HSS.

An in any case cutting edge geometry varies every time you present a tool to the job, there is no mechanical control element like a plane sole to form a standard.


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## rsser (10 Jul 2008)

CHJ":5u79ov61 said:


> You are grinding away material sharpening far quicker than any wood wear on HSS.



Indeed, though maybe not with honing, which was my point. It needs to be studied.



CHJ":5u79ov61 said:


> An in any case cutting edge geometry varies every time you present a tool to the job, there is no mechanical control element like a plane sole to form a standard.



By geometry I'm referring simply to two intersecting planes and their included angle. So if there's a wear bevel on the flute or skew eg. to restore the geometry it would have to be ground away. Question is do we get wear bevels, if so how long? I don't know but it would seem logical given the photomicroscopy of plane iron edges. I'm waiting on a digiscope to do some checking.


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## davegw (10 Jul 2008)

Don't know if you get it, but my copy of "The Woodworker" arrived yesterday morning and there is a good review of the Tormek "Touch and Turn" jig set for turners by Alan Holtham I think

Dave


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## rsser (14 Jul 2008)

Thanks Dave. 

No, I don't subscribe.

What does the review cover?


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## davegw (14 Jul 2008)

He mainly covered this http://www.tormek.com/en/kits/tnt708.php

and say's that it has changed the way he sharpens tools. Seems a bit OTT but you can judge for yourself.

Dave


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## hobbler (3 Aug 2008)

Should have got s lesson off that Funky Chicken you had recently visit you.


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## davegw (4 Aug 2008)

hobbler":3c9mf1ke said:


> Should have got s lesson off that Funky Chicken you had recently visit you.



:? :? :? :? :? :? :? 

Sorry Hobbler? Not sure I know what you mean?


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## hobbler (24 Aug 2008)

davegw":x7pr935b said:


> hobbler":x7pr935b said:
> 
> 
> > Should have got s lesson off that Funky Chicken you had recently visit you.
> ...



apologies for not replying sooner the comment was meant for Devonwoody


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## shedhead (25 Aug 2008)

After long fights at the grinding wheel, both with the Sorby set up and now the Oneway system, i have raised the white flag. I will have to give in and spend the cash for a Tormek.
Yesterday my bowl gouge finished up looking like a giant dart....with on point. My problem is with the above mentioned jigs is not the movement of the tool. It's the finding the correct angle. I seem to have a problem with hand, eye, co-ordination.
Look out Ebay here comes sharpening jigs.


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## CHJ (25 Aug 2008)

shedhead":1hix63x8 said:


> After long fights at the grinding wheel, both with the Sorby set up and now the Oneway system, i have raised the white flag. I will have to give in and spend the cash for a Tormek.
> Yesterday my bowl gouge finished up looking like a giant dart....with on point. My problem is with the above mentioned jigs is not the movement of the tool. It's the finding the correct angle. I seem to have a problem with hand, eye, co-ordination.
> Look out Ebay here comes sharpening jigs.



Well I wish you luck with your new toy, but i have serious doubts about the outcome.
A Tormek system and its jigs are only a variation on a common theme applied across many others, in fact the Sorby and Tormek gouge jigs are brothers in form.

The only difference with the Tormek system is that it will take you hours to remove the same amount of metal that you can move in minutes if not seconds on a dry system, you will still end up with the incorrect form if you do not appreciate the need for controlled dwell time on any given area of the profile.

It sounds like the problems you are experiencing are down to your lack of appreciation of the fundamentals of grinding geometry, a few minutes spent with someone practiced at sharpening should see you using your existing jigs successfully, do you not have a forum member or club near at hand that can help?


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## TEP (25 Aug 2008)

Hi *dermot*. 

Sorry to hear your not getting on well using the jigs you have.

I would have second (& third) thoughts about buying a Tormek if it is only because you can't get on with the jigs you have.

Even using the Tormek you could easily end up with a pointed gouge. I can state now (100%) it is not the jigs it is your technique. No jig that is made will give you the correct profile without some operator input. ie - Knowing what profile you are shaping, and where to remove the metal, and it is operator error that is causing your problem.

The two prime examples of operator error is a pointed gouge, or a point on each side of the nose.

As with all things it would be easier to see what you are doing to get the shape you are. But I reckon you are being a bit too heavy handed, and removing too much metal from the sides. I presume you are trying to get a long grind profile. In which case you should slowly shape the side wings with the gouge at about 75 - 80deg or so across the edge of the wheel. The closer you get to 90deg the longer the wing. These are the hardest bits to get right as you have so much metal to remove initially.

Once you have the wings shaped to your satisfaction you can then move onto blending the nose in with the wings, you do this very - very gently. It is too easy to remove too much steel.

If you have done this correctly you should have a rough edge all round the wings and nose, now you slowly and gently sweep the profile from wing edge to wing edge in one sweep until you have a consistent bevel.

Believe me it is quite easy once you have seen it done, or had a bit of practice.

One aid you could try is one of these profiles. You buy the one which has the profile you want, put it into your jig and move the end on a stationary wheel and watch that the ground edge moves on the wheel surface correctly. Replace the profile with your gouge at the same settings and shape slowly while comparing your grind with the bought one

Good luck which ever way you go.


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## Paul.J (25 Aug 2008)

Dermot.
I would go along with what Chas and Tam say.
I have only recently started on a dry stone with a long grind and did have the same problem what you are having now,until Chas pointed me in the right direction,and after lots of wasted steel.
It might be worth just buying a cheap soft steel gouge to practice on until you find the angle you like.
Once you do this it just takes seconds now to sharpen  
I use the Sorby jig now on a dry stone where as before i used a wet stone which ground a groove in the middle which i was always dressing flat,loosing a lot of stone.
You will have to keep on with "Percy" and it will eventually come good.


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