# Bringing goods from the EU



## Richard_C

No chance of travel at the moment, but in the past I have picked up the odd tool or bit of kit when I've been driving through France or similar. Got a few necessary bits for my 2CV once when they were hard to find in the UK. Those of a certain age will remember customs limits, X litres of wine etc., N cigars and suchlike and duty on almost anything else. I remember buying an ice axe in Andorra and managing to convince a customs man who did an 'open boot please' check that it was for personal use and had been used - evidenced by the dents on the shaft - so he reluctantly didn't charge duty on it. 

Anyway, those days are back:

www.gov.uk/guidance/bringing-goods-into-great-britain-from-outside-the-uk-from-1-january-2021



_You can bring in other goods worth up to £390 (or up to £270 if you arrive by private plane or boat). If a single item’s worth more than your allowance you pay duty or tax on its full value, not just the value above the allowance.

If you go over your allowance then you will pay customs duty on the total value of your goods. The rate:
_

_is 2.5% for goods worth up to £630_
_depends on the type of goods if they’re worth more than £630_
_From 1 January 2021, you will be able to check your allowances, make a declaration and pay any tax using an online service for passengers.

You will also have to pay VAT at the standard UK rates._

It's a per person limit, you can't join them up so if you buy a fancy tool for £500 you can't say "ah but my wife owns half of it....." and split it over 2 allowances.

I guess anything you buy online/mail order from specialist retailers will attract the whole vat fee+handling charge palaver now as well. No idea what will happen in Northern Ireland with its open border.

Gosh I'm looking forward to all of this, the forms look delightful.


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## billw

Will duty free shops be making a come back?


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## Cheshirechappie

That document was published on 17th December 2020. The UK/EU Free Trade Agreement was not agreed until 23rd December.

If I were you, I'd wait until the document was updated to reflect the provisions of the latest agreement before drawing too many firm conclusions. Quite a lot of 'No Deal' planning was done, of which I assume the provisions set out in the 17th December document were a part.


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## Rorschach

That would appear to be out of date information.


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## artie

Richard_C said:


> No idea what will happen in Northern Ireland with its open border.


And neither does anyone else but that doesn't stop the unending scare stories. 
Apparently couriers won't be delivering from GB after the 31st Dec.
On the 1 st of Jan the sky is going to fall on our heads.


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## Jacob

Cheshirechappie said:


> That document was published on 17th December 2020. The UK/EU Free Trade Agreement was not agreed until 23rd December.
> 
> If I were you, I'd wait until the document was updated to reflect the provisions of the latest agreement before drawing too many firm conclusions. Quite a lot of 'No Deal' planning was done, of which I assume the provisions set out in the 17th December document were a part.


Absolutely - a week is a long time in politics and for all we know the final deal may be miles away from the "oven ready" one so meticulously prepared earlier.
It'll be good to be free of all the paper work and regulations. 
Pity about the loss of free movement, but who wants to work abroad nowadays?


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## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Absolutely - a week is a long time in politics and for all we know the final deal may be miles away from the "oven ready" one so meticulously prepared earlier.
> It'll be good to be free of all the paper work and regulations.
> Pity about the loss of free movement, but who wants to work abroad nowadays?



The deal is done.


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## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> The deal is done.


So Richard_C has nothing to worry about then? That's good to know. 
What are the details precisely?


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## clogs

I delivered a 1930's Rosengart car....French built convertable on an Austin 7 chassis.....in the back of my LWB Sprinter....not so long ago,with Fr papers.....
Open the doors please...gruff voice...they looked at this wreck and told me P off......hahaha.....

I believe if it's used (tooling) and for personal use there will be no duty......
anyway your moving back to the UK and your bringing your stuff home.....nod nod, wink wink.....

Jacob, 
when I left France to move further into Europe, houses were selling like hot cakes...it's getting like it here, everyting is selling...
I always loved working abroad....
did it most of my life.....
Home is where u hang your hat......hahaha....


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## Jacob

clogs said:


> ....
> 
> Jacob,
> when I left France to move further into Europe, houses were selling like hot cakes...it's getting like it here, everyting is selling...
> I always loved working abroad....
> did it most of my life.....
> Home is where u hang your hat......hahaha....


I was trying to be ironic!
I'd heard that property was selling in France. I know a few owners who seemed to expect the opposite, end of a dream etc. I guess they are taking up French nationality or other interim arrangements. Good luck to them I wish I was in France too!


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## Cheshirechappie

Jacob said:


> So Richard_C has nothing to worry about then? That's good to know.
> What are the details precisely?


Here you go. All 1,246 pages of it.

EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf (order-order.com)

No, I'm not going to summarise it. We have a Civil Service for that job. Await their deliberations.


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## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> So Richard_C has nothing to worry about then? That's good to know.
> What are the details precisely?



Are you trying to stir up trouble?


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## Jacob

Cheshirechappie said:


> Here you go. All 1,246 pages of it.
> 
> EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf (order-order.com)
> 
> No, I'm not going to summarise it.


There you go Richard-C - a bit of bedtime reading!


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## Misterdog

artie said:


> On the 1 st of Jan the sky is going to fall on our heads.



As it did at the end of 1999 when the Y2K bug brought the world to an end.

I'm off out panic buying, to create shortages, thus proving that predictions of shortages caused by Brexit were correct.

Good to see the pollsters are asking people how they would vote if we had another referendum to ask if we should rejoin the EU.

WTF...


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## Jake

Rorschach said:


> The deal is done.



We are outside of the customs union so there is a customs border, there is no reason this aspect would change at all between this FTA and no deal. 

Edit: sorry that was wrong, the customs duty element will not apply to qualifying goods (rules of origin and all that, so the forms will need to be filled out). VAT will be payable at the border. SPS stuff will apply again (depending on how we choose to enforce that or not I guess).


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## Jacob

'United Ireland' trends as Dublin commits to funding EU health cards and Erasmus for citizens north of the border


The London Economic - The higher education minister said Erasmus is "not a cost, it's an investment"- Politics




www.thelondoneconomic.com


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## cutting solutions

Guys



Is this the rules for bringing goods from OUTSIDE the EU


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## Jacob

cutting solutions said:


> Guys
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the rules for bringing goods from OUTSIDE the EU


No - from outside the UK. That means from the EU and rest of world.
The main point of the EU was to move trade (goods, services, finance, workers) more easily but we are now into a different scenario and will be finding out how it works as time goes by!


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## jcassidy

I believe that the Customs border will be the Irish sea, so NI is outside of it. Which.is why all the DUP MPs are going to vote against The Deal.

Internal couriers won't deliver to NI addresses as they will have to complete customs formalities, which cost. International couriers like DHL won't have any problem, I suspect. 

And I found out my UK Amazon Prime membership doesn't extend to German Amazon... FFS!


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## billw

won’t this potentially make some things cheaper for us? German VAT is 19% so we won’t pay that any longer but instead pay U.K. VAT on import.


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## Noel

billw said:


> won’t this potentially make some things cheaper for us? German VAT is 19% so we won’t pay that any longer but instead pay U.K. VAT on import.



If MWSt is 19% and UK vat is 20%?
Add handling/admin charges as well.


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## jcassidy

The UK left the EU for cultural and political reasons, not economic. So anytime anyone says "won't it be cheaper?", the answer is probably no. At least, not in the short or even medium term.



billw said:


> won’t this potentially make some things cheaper for us?


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## billw

Noel said:


> If MWSt is 19% and UK vat is 20%?
> Add handling/admin charges as well.



Yeah...... don't ask how I forgot that 20 was higher than 19


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## Richard_C

And UK vat is? Add the handling charge and factor in a delay.


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## Rorschach

For smaller items imported that don't attract a customs charge it could indeed be cheaper.


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## Noel

Rorschach said:


> For smaller items imported that don't attract a customs charge it could indeed be cheaper.



Any examples? I certainly can’t think of anything that would be less expensive.


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## Rorschach

Noel said:


> Any examples? I certainly can’t think of anything that would be less expensive.



Well there would be no VAT on the item so that saves approx 20% and I assume as with other imports there would be a value threshold before duty/VAT would be charged at this end.


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## billw

Rorschach said:


> Well there would be no VAT on the item so that saves approx 20% and I assume as with other imports there would be a value threshold before duty/VAT would be charged at this end.



The exemption only applies to goods brought in on your person, not sent through the post though. The postal threshold is much lower, I think that was as a result of mail order DVD/CD places setting up in Jersey and sending stuff across VAT-free using Royal Mail.


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## Rorschach

billw said:


> The exemption only applies to goods brought in on your person, not sent through the post though. The postal threshold is much lower, I think that was as a result of mail order DVD/CD places setting up in Jersey and sending stuff across VAT-free using Royal Mail.



That's why I said smaller items that would be below the threshold (either posted or carried).


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## gcusick

billw said:


> won’t this potentially make some things cheaper for us? German VAT is 19% so we won’t pay that any longer but instead pay U.K. VAT on import.



....which is 20% ??


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## Noel

Rorschach said:


> Well there would be no VAT on the item so that saves approx 20% and I assume as with other imports there would be a value threshold before duty/VAT would be charged at this end.



Why would there be no Vat/sales tax?


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## bushwhaker

Резюме за UK-EU TCA


https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/value-added-tax_en.pdf


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## Rorschach

Noel said:


> Why would there be no Vat/sales tax?



Because we are out of the customs union.


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## RobinBHM

Noel said:


> Why would there be no Vat/sales tax?


my understanding is that VAT reg businesses will have to pay VAT and reclaim it back 
non VAT businesses and the private imports I wouldve though would have to pay VAT to HMRC? -like any other purchase in the UK.


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## RobinBHM

Interesting how covid deniers appear also to be pro brexit.......

PS covid is real and no the deal is not done....guess what starts in Jan: negotiations for services


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## Rorschach

RobinBHM said:


> Interesting how covid deniers appear also to be pro brexit.......



How did you come to that conclusion?


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## billw

RobinBHM said:


> my understanding is that VAT reg businesses will have to pay VAT and reclaim it back
> non VAT businesses and the private imports I wouldve though would have to pay VAT to HMRC? -like any other purchase in the UK.



Shouldn't be the case, exports outside the EU are exempt from VAT and since we're now outside the EU then anything sent from there should be without tax. We arent really different from anywhere else in the world in their eyes now. Sure we'll have to handle paying tax and duty in the UK which we didn't before.

Time to send a load of stuff to Gibraltar and buy a large suitcase.


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## RobinBHM

billw said:


> Shouldn't be the case, exports outside the EU are exempt from VAT and since we're now outside the EU then anything sent from there should be without tax. We arent really different from anywhere else in the world in their eyes now. Sure we'll have to handle paying tax and duty in the UK which we didn't before.
> 
> Time to send a load of stuff to Gibraltar and buy a large suitcase.



My understanding is that goods aren't exempt from VAT...it has to be paid to HMRC.

I guess you mean EU sellers will invoice net of VAT (which for B2B they always did anyway....which was an advantage for cash flow over a UK purchase).


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## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> That's why I said smaller items that would be below the threshold (either posted or carried).


There is no threshold.


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## billw

RobinBHM said:


> My understanding is that goods aren't exempt from VAT...it has to be paid to HMRC.
> 
> I guess you mean EU sellers will invoice net of VAT (which for B2B they always did anyway....which was an advantage for cash flow over a UK purchase).



Sorry I meant they are exempt from *EU* VAT.


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## Rorschach

RobinBHM said:


> There is no threshold.



There is a threshold for good outside the EU at the moment, so I don't see why there wouldn't be one for EU goods now.


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## Jake

jcassidy said:


> The UK left the EU for cultural and political reasons, not economic. So anytime anyone says "won't it be cheaper?", the answer is probably no. At least, not in the short or even medium term.


 
Delete probably, add long.


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## Jake

Rorschach said:


> That's why I said smaller items that would be below the threshold (either posted or carried).



It will be interesting to see how that is handled. They have historically let low value (under £25 or so?) imports from the US through without VAT, but they won't be able to do that facing our much closer home continent market, else Amazon and the like will spank the tax advantage over domestic sellers.


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## Jake

cutting solutions said:


> Is this the rules for bringing goods from OUTSIDE the EU



It will depend. If what you are buying is 100% made in the EU from EU supplied raw materials upwards, you will need to pay customs/VAT clearance charges but not duties/tariffs. If you are buying purely (say) Chinese manufactured goods from an EU reseller then duty as well as VAT will be payable as if they were bought direct from China. If what you are buying is say German manufactured using components or materials from outside the EU then you may or may not need to pay duties as well as VAT on entry, depending on how "EU" and how "non-EU" the thing(s) are. There are some pretty complicated rules to apply to determine whether goods qualify as EU-made (for duty free import) going by physical composition or value added.


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## jcassidy

Jake said:


> Delete probably, add long.



Well I don't want to exclude the possibilty that BREXIT might turn good in the long term. We don't know the future!


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## Noel

Jake said:


> It will depend. If what you are buying is 100% made in the EU from EU supplied raw materials upwards, you will need to pay customs/VAT clearance charges but not duties/tariffs. If you are buying purely (say) Chinese manufactured goods from an EU reseller then duty as well as VAT will be payable as if they were bought direct from China. If what you are buying is say German manufactured using components or materials from outside the EU then you may or may not need to pay duties as well as VAT on entry, depending on how "EU" and how "non-EU" the thing(s) are. There are some pretty complicated rules to apply to determine whether goods qualify as EU-made (for duty free import) going by physical composition or value added.



We are talking doll's eyes Jake............... : )


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## sploo

Cheshirechappie said:


> Here you go. All 1,246 pages of it.
> 
> EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf (order-order.com)
> 
> No, I'm not going to summarise it. We have a Civil Service for that job. Await their deliberations.


Ah. The fantastic document that contains references to such cutting edge technology as Netscape Communicator (discontinued for over 15 years), and also crypto algorithms that are outdated and now considered unsafe. Really gives me the warm fuzzy feeling that the rest of the document is probably at a similar level of quality.



Misterdog said:


> As it did at the end of 1999 when the Y2K bug brought the world to an end.
> 
> I'm off out panic buying, to create shortages, thus proving that predictions of shortages caused by Brexit were correct.


Note: an awful lot of skilled people spent an awful lot of time working on an awful lot of IT systems in order to reduce Y2K related problems; but even then plenty of problems occurred (see The millennium bug was real – and 20 years later we face the same threats | Martyn Thomas). The pertinent quote in that article: "_...but those of us who worked days, nights and weekends to meet the hard deadline of December 1999 are angered when ignorant people think that because we succeeded, the threat was not serious_"


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## JohnPW

UK law regarding import duties and VAT is changing in 2021.

It's actually an EU law that the UK has decided to keep after 31 Dec 2020.

The exemptions for low cost goods are going to be scraped, the threshold being £19 and £37 for commercial products and gifts respectively IIRC.









Modernising VAT for cross-border e-commerce


Latest news, Mini One Stop Shop (MOSS), The VAT e-commerce package




ec.europa.eu








> the (non-EU) seller will charge and collect the VAT at the point of sale to EU customers and declare and pay that VAT globally to the Member State of identification in the OSS (One Stop Shop). These goods will then benefit from a VAT exemption upon importation, allowing a fast release at customs.
> 
> The introduction of the import scheme goes hand in hand with the abolition of the current VAT exemption for goods in small consignment of a value of up to EUR 22. This is also in line with the commitment to apply the destination principle for VAT.
> 
> Where the import OSS is not used, a second simplification mechanism will be available for imports. Import VAT will be collected from customers by the customs declarant (e.g. postal operator, courier firm, customs agents) which will pay it to the customs authorities via a monthly payment.
> 
> Who will benefit from this proposal?
> 
> Businesses will benefit from a substantial reduction in cross-border VAT compliance costs. This will facilitate greater cross-border trade.
> EU Businesses will be able to compete on equal footing with non-EU businesses that are not charging VAT.
> Member States will gain through an increase in VAT revenues of EUR 7 billion annually.


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## jcassidy

sploo said:


> Note: an awful lot of skilled people spent an awful lot of time working on an awful lot of IT systems in order to reduce Y2K related problems; but even then plenty of problems occurred (see The millennium bug was real – and 20 years later we face the same threats | Martyn Thomas). The pertinent quote in that article: "_...but those of us who worked days, nights and weekends to meet the hard deadline of December 1999 are angered when ignorant people think that because we succeeded, the threat was not serious_"



Yes, I was one of them! About a year's worth of work, and I was the senior sysadmin on shift that night. let me tell you, we were all sh****g bricks.

Mind you, 2049 is going to be another interesting year as an awful lot of fixes where along the lines of "if year is less than 49, century is 20, otherwise century is 19"


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## sploo

jcassidy said:


> Yes, I was one of them! About a year's worth of work, and I was the senior sysadmin on shift that night. let me tell you, we were all sh****g bricks.
> 
> Mind you, 2049 is going to be another interesting year as an awful lot of fixes where along the lines of "if year is less than 49, century is 20, otherwise century is 19"


IRC there was a claim that the Chinese government forced senior airline execs to be in the air as the date rolled over into 2000; in order to "focus minds" on ensuring their IT systems were fixed  

At the moment I'm just "looking forward" to 2038; given the number of systems using 32 bit Unix epoch times


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## Jake

sploo said:


> Ah. The fantastic document that contains references to such cutting edge technology as Netscape Communicator (discontinued for over 15 years), and also crypto algorithms that are outdated and now considered unsafe. Really gives me the warm fuzzy feeling that the rest of the document is probably at a similar level of quality.



To be fair that is just replicating existing EU language (a Council Directive from 2008 on DNA info sharing, which I assume but do not know itself picked up earlier language).


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## Jake

Noel said:


> We are talking doll's eyes Jake............... : )



I have actually read the damn thing, but yes I did see that.


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## sploo

Jake said:


> To be fair that is just replicating existing EU language (a Council Directive from 2008 on DNA info sharing, which I assume but do not know itself picked up earlier language).


Yea, I assumed it was just a copy and paste from an earlier document - though definitely in keeping with the slapstick comedy theme of the rest of the negotiations.


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## Jake

It's actually even more complicated on VAT too (which might be better at a consumer level, provided that EU suppliers can be bothered with the hassle). If the consignment is less than £135, the supplier has to charge UK VAT to the customer and pay it to HMRC. The (it's £15) Low Consignment Value Relief gets abolished. If the consignment is over £135 then VAT is charged to the recipient by HMRC (via the parcel handler etc). 

So high volume low price sellers will just account for VAT to HMRC and charge it on sale, which the likes of Amazon etc will just swallow in their volume. High price sellers can just fill out some additional paperwork and let the recipient worry.

If I was say a German tool shop with items above and below the £135 I would be seriously questioning whether the hassle is worth it, or specifying a min order.

This all if I've understood from a quick skim correctly... 

Changes to VAT treatment of overseas goods sold to customers from 1 January 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)


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## Jake

sploo said:


> Yea, I assumed it was just a copy and paste from an earlier document - though definitely in keeping with the slapstick comedy theme of the rest of the negotiations.



I like the irony of discarding EU law but just adopting its content.


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## Danieljw

Lol.....


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## Jacob

Jake said:


> I like the irony of discarding EU law but just adopting its content.


All is not lost. We will still have to try to negotiate about the content, without any voting rights but no need to waste time and money on all that MEP nonsense. If it proves difficult it will all be EU's fault, not ours.


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## Rorschach

Jake said:


> I like the irony of discarding EU law but just adopting its content.



If you listen to some former MEP's you will find that a lot of EU law was written with a great deal (possibly a large majority) of UK input, so it's not so much that we are following laws written by the EU as much as we are following laws written largely by ourselves. Therefore it would make sense that, in the short term at least, we would continue to go down that path. The difference now of course is that we can choose to diverge in the future (if we want to).


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## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> .....The difference now of course is that we can choose to diverge in the future (if we want to).


If the EU chooses to agree. They will be able to vote on it, we won't.


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## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> If the EU chooses to agree. They will be able to vote on it, we won't.



Eh? You misunderstood my point.


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## Chippyofftheoldblock

Whatever happens just get on with it, I remember before the EU was formed and importing/exporting all ran smoothly, we had the British overseas trade board who could sort anything out immediately and for free, in-fact it was easier for me before EU, I imported from Germany, USA and France, doddle, but no doubt our government will make it as bureaucratic as hell, they seem to have forgotten the words Civil and Service, which they used to be.
Interestingly, my suppliers from Italy, Germany and China have all been falling over themselves to ensure we continue buying and Italy have now undercut China on one of the products we have made, never thought that would happen, another supplier has offered to reduce price to compensate for any import duty, maybe we are more important than we think to overseas suppliers.
These are my views and what I personally have found, others may have different experiences.


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## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> Eh? You misunderstood my point.


I meant that any divergence from a particular agreement _with the EU or any member_ will be entirely up to them to choose, accept, reject. They can agree on things amongst themselves but we won't be party to the decision making.


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## Jake

Rorschach said:


> it's not so much that we are following laws written by the EU as much as we are following laws written largely by ourselves.



That's a little overstated probably, it's a multi-layered and consensual.process, but no doubt that we used to be highly influential. A big kernel of truth in that all the same.


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## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> I meant that any divergence from a particular agreement _with the EU or any member_ will be entirely up to them to choose, accept, reject. They can agree on things amongst themselves but we won't be party to the decision making.



Yes, and the problem with that is? That's exactly how we deal with the rest of the world when trading.


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## Rorschach

Jake said:


> That's a little overstated probably, it's a multi-layered and consensual.process, but no doubt that we used to be highly influential. A big kernel of truth in that all the same.



Oh yes I was simplifying to make the point that following certain EU laws isn't all that unusual or expected since we had a large say in how they were written in the first place.
It's been suggested (convincingly so in my view) that the reason so much of the public sector was highly pro-EU is because it allowed them to get legislation put in place that would never have been accepted by the UK public and passed by parliament otherwise. The EU were a handy scapegoat for unpopular legislation and it was almost impossible for the voting public to do anything about it since MEP's have almost no power to write or amend legislation.


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## Jonm

Cheshirechappie said:


> That document was published on 17th December 2020. The UK/EU Free Trade Agreement was not agreed until 23rd December.
> 
> If I were you, I'd wait until the document was updated to reflect the provisions of the latest agreement before drawing too many firm conclusions. Quite a lot of 'No Deal' planning was done, of which I assume the provisions set out in the 17th December document were a part.


Going back to the original post. The trade deal is about tariffs and quotas.

The government document dated 17 December is about returning from abroad and what you can bring in to the country without paying uk taxes, also note the comment about “You will also have to pay VAT at the standard UK rates”.

The document is current and will apply from tomorrow. Whilst it may be amended in the future I cannot see there will be a fundamental change in principle, we are out of the single market and customs union, bringing goods in to the uk will require the payment of uk taxes on entry. The fact that you have already paid duty in the EU is irrelevant. Perhaps the EU will allow a rebate scheme for uk travellers which I recall Austria doing many years ago.


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## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> Yes, and the problem with that is? That's exactly how we deal with the rest of the world when trading.


The problem with that is we now may get worse deals as non participating members with no voting rights. Leave a club means giving up the privileges.
We also lose the joint power of the EU to negotiate, particularly with the big ones China USA. EU will strike deals which won't include us.
Surely you know this, we've been saying it for 5 years!!!


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## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> ....
> It's been suggested (convincingly so in my view) that the reason so much of the public sector was highly pro-EU is because it allowed them to get legislation put in place that would never have been accepted by the UK public and passed by parliament otherwise. ....


Which legislation did you have in mind?


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## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> The problem with that is we now may get worse deals as non participating members with no voting rights. Leave a club means giving up the privileges.
> We also lose the joint power of the EU to negotiate, particularly with the big ones China USA. EU will strike deals which won't include us.
> Surely you know this, we've been saying it for 5 years!!!



Of course I know that.


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## Jonm

Jonm said:


> Going back to the original post. The trade deal is about tariffs and quotas.
> 
> The government document dated 17 December is about returning from abroad and what you can bring in to the country without paying uk taxes, also note the comment about “You will also have to pay VAT at the standard UK rates”.
> 
> The document is current and will apply from tomorrow. Whilst it may be amended in the future I cannot see there will be a fundamental change in principle, we are out of the single market and customs union, bringing goods in to the uk will require the payment of uk taxes on entry. The fact that you have already paid duty in the EU is irrelevant. Perhaps the EU will allow a rebate scheme for uk travellers which I recall Austria doing many years ago.


Looking at it again I think that the section on “allowance for other goods” and the wording

is 2.5% for goods worth up to £630
depends on the type of goods if they’re worth more than £630
this may be affected by the trade deal as I think it is about tariffs. The bit about paying VAT I think will stay.


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## RobinBHM

I suppose what amateur woodworkers want to know is:

1. Will it become more difficult, more expensive to order tools etc from European suppliers?

2. Will it become more expensive to buy European made tools and materials from UK businesses.


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## Rorschach

RobinBHM said:


> I suppose what amateur woodworkers want to know is:
> 
> 1. Will it become more difficult, more expensive to order tools etc from European suppliers?
> 
> 2. Will it become more expensive to buy European made tools and materials from UK businesses.



We'll find out. In the short term, probably yes to both, if for nothing else than uncertainty and bureaucracy. In the longer term, I suspect it will be almost impossible to tell if any price rises are linked to Brexit or other factors, especially given the C19 situation.


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## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> I suppose what amateur woodworkers want to know is:
> 
> 1. Will it become more difficult, more expensive to order tools etc from European suppliers?
> 
> 2. Will it become more expensive to buy European made tools and materials from UK businesses.


I'm currently trying to buy some (not specifically woodworking related) kit from a vendor in Denmark, and despite being literally hours away from the new rules they tell me they still haven't been given clear information on what those rules will be. I suppose this is the consequence of promising the country an impossible utopia, then having to actually deliver something (meaning you've had to mostly make it up as you go along, and backtrack on most of your promises).

I guess it'll all become clear in time, but the very fact we're at this point in without businesses having a clear understanding of the new rules is absolutely farcical. Though I guess that's in keeping with the rest of the sh!tshow we've been living through for the last few years.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> We'll find out. In the short term, probably yes to both, if for nothing else than uncertainty and bureaucracy. In the longer term, I suspect it will be almost impossible to tell if any price rises are linked to Brexit or other factors, especially given the C19 situation.


Going from zero bureaucracy when shipping to/from the UK to "some" (probably as yet unknown) bureaucracy will unquestionably add to costs. Even a couple of minutes of checks per lorry is causing huge tailbacks - it all has an impact at scale.

For larger vendors it's likely it'll get swalled up in other costs; such that it may be hard to quantify the impact on individual sales. For smaller companies it will likely be a bigger hit on their costs.


----------



## brocher

Rorschach said:


> If you listen to some former MEP's you will find that a lot of EU law was written with a great deal (possibly a large majority) of UK input, so it's not so much that we are following laws written by the EU as much as we are following laws written largely by ourselves. Therefore it would make sense that, in the short term at least, we would continue to go down that path. The difference now of course is that we can choose to diverge in the future (if we want to).



But of course for UK manufacturers they must still use EU standards in order to sell into the common market otherwise their products won’t be allowed. And if the UK creates a new standard for entering other global markets then this is a double or triple cost for them! Cant see the sense of diverging from EU standards at all


----------



## Rorschach

brocher said:


> But of course for UK manufacturers they must still use EU standards in order to sell into the common market otherwise their products won’t be allowed. And if the UK creates a new standard for entering other global markets then this is a double or triple cost for them! Cant see the sense of diverging from EU standards at all



Of course, if you intend to export to country you must produce a product that they will buy. This is true the world over. The reverse will be true as well for EU countries wanting to export to us.


----------



## dfps

I have a micro digger and 4x4 mini dumper at a property in France that I took over last year.
I have little in the way of proof that I took them over from the UK on the ferry on a trailer apart from some random photos of the machine in the UK and the machine on a trailer prior to leaving so am a bit concerned how I would fair when I have to bring them back to the UK sometime later this year after Brexit !

Bit niche I supposed but other people must have similar large equipment or tooling in the EU that they took over from the UK ?

Anyone ?


----------



## sploo

brocher said:


> But of course for UK manufacturers they must still use EU standards in order to sell into the common market otherwise their products won’t be allowed. And if the UK creates a new standard for entering other global markets then this is a double or triple cost for them! Cant see the sense of diverging from EU standards at all


Exactly. This has been 100% the case since day one. Even if a future UK standard was "better" it would still make sense for a UK made product to conform to the standards that are used across the widest possible market.

The difference (of course) now is that we don't have a say in the future direction of those EU standards. Winners all round


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> ...
> 
> The difference (of course) now is that we don't have a say in the future direction of those EU standards. Winners all round


Yebbut we've still got the navy. Remember Dunkirk!


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> Of course, if you intend to export to country you must produce a product that they will buy. This is true the world over. The reverse will be true as well for EU countries wanting to export to us.


Yes, but given the relative size of the UK market vs the rest of the EU block, it may well be cheaper to say "made to EU standards only" (and accept the loss of UK sales) rather than take on the costs of meeting an extra standard purely to sell into only one extra market.

Certainly for smaller vendors the paperwork alone may make it pointless.


----------



## sploo

Jacob said:


> Yebbut we've still got the navy. Remember Dunkirk!


I do. I fought a rearguard action along with Mark "Killer" Francois.


----------



## billw

When I shipped a load of my personal belongings back from Gibraltar a few years back I got charged duty even though it was virtually all stuff I'd taken there from the UK in the first place. Don't want to think what they'll try and do when my furniture comes back under the new rules.


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> Yes, but given the relative size of the UK market vs the rest of the EU block, it may well be cheaper to say "made to EU standards only" (and accept the loss of UK sales) rather than take on the costs of meeting an extra standard purely to sell into only one extra market.
> 
> Certainly for smaller vendors the paperwork alone may make it pointless.



True, it might, we'll find out.
The fact that european car manufacturers happily make RHD vehicles solely for the UK market would suggest they don't have a problem with different specifications. It's likely anyway that our standard will very closely match EU standards for most products anyway. As I say, we'll find out, no sense in getting all worried about hypotheticals.


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> Yes, but given the relative size of the UK market vs the rest of the EU block, it may well be cheaper to say "made to EU standards only" (and accept the loss of UK sales) rather than take on the costs of meeting an extra standard purely to sell into only one extra market.
> 
> Certainly for smaller vendors the paperwork alone may make it pointless.


But brexit is about reducing regulations, so we may get de-regulated sub-standard products from the EU


----------



## doctor Bob

let it go chaps ......... or at least give me an analogy to laugh at.


----------



## marcros

doctor Bob said:


> let it go chaps ......... or at least give me an analogy to laugh at.



lets not get the good doctor started on analogies...


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> let it go chaps ......... or at least give me an analogy to laugh at.


Reality's a b!tch ain't it Bob.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> True, it might, we'll find out.
> The fact that european car manufacturers happily make RHD vehicles solely for the UK market would suggest they don't have a problem with different specifications. It's likely anyway that our standard will very closely match EU standards for most products anyway. As I say, we'll find out, no sense in getting all worried about hypotheticals.


That's a good example and a fair point. It is a very high value product though, and designing a right hand drive version of a car isn't useful just for the UK market.


----------



## alanpo68

Rorschach said:


> True, it might, we'll find out.
> The fact that european car manufacturers happily make RHD vehicles solely for the UK market would suggest they don't have a problem with different specifications. It's likely anyway that our standard will very closely match EU standards for most products anyway. As I say, we'll find out, no sense in getting all worried about hypotheticals.



So basically promise a Unicorn laden, cake and eat it Brexit in which you talk up any possible positives. When the reality of the situation is pointed out though, it's best not to be worried about hypotheticals. When it inevitably goes **** up just blame it on COVID.


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> especially given the C19 situation


Ive certainly noticed people are getting the covid excuses in early.


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> I'm currently trying to buy some (not specifically woodworking related) kit from a vendor in Denmark, and despite being literally hours away from the new rules they tell me they still haven't been given clear information on what those rules will be. I suppose this is the consequence of promising the country an impossible utopia, then having to actually deliver something (meaning you've had to mostly make it up as you go along, and backtrack on most of your promises).
> 
> I guess it'll all become clear in time, but the very fact we're at this point in without businesses having a clear understanding of the new rules is absolutely farcical. Though I guess that's in keeping with the rest of the sh!tshow we've been living through for the last few years.



in order to deal with all the transit documents and customs declarations, the UK govt have been working on an IT system (which I understand to be 8 systems cobbled together).

The system went live on 23rd December 2020.

and then there is the Kent access permit....a kind of "force the chaos away from the border" system.


----------



## RobinBHM

billw said:


> When I shipped a load of my personal belongings back from Gibraltar a few years back I got charged duty even though it was virtually all stuff I'd taken there from the UK in the first place. Don't want to think what they'll try and do when my furniture comes back under the new rules.



Gibraltar situation is rather ironic. 

I believe the deal for Gibraltar means Spanish people can work in Gibraltar without permits or visas.....but a UK person cant.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> Reality's a b!tch ain't it Bob.



Sorry to hear you are struggling with reality, I genuinely thought you'd have got used to it.
Anyway I shall leave you all too it, don't get mean and nasty, I'm off to make a dog sofa.


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> As I say, we'll find out, no sense in getting all worried about hypotheticals.



I always find this brexit argument rather perplexing.

this argument is making the claim that: negatives can only be hypothetical but the perceived benefits must be real.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Sorry to hear you are struggling with reality, I genuinely thought you'd have got used to it.
> Anyway I shall leave you all too it, don't get mean and nasty, I'm off to make a dog sofa.


Reality is full of people who are somehow surprised that Boris is a fountain of excrement. I do certainly struggle with that.

Just don't make the dog sofa from anything you need to order from outside the UK; no one yet seems to have a clue how to get it into the country.


----------



## Noel

brocher said:


> But of course for UK manufacturers they must still use EU standards in order to sell into the common market otherwise their products won’t be allowed. And if the UK creates a new standard for entering other global markets then this is a double or triple cost for them! Cant see the sense of diverging from EU standards at all





sploo said:


> Exactly. This has been 100% the case since day one. Even if a future UK standard was "better" it would still make sense for a UK made product to conform to the standards that are used across the widest possible market.
> 
> The difference (of course) now is that we don't have a say in the future direction of those EU standards. Winners all round



The future is here, well tomorrow.
New GB standard marking is UKCA. Some products will need it from day one, others end of year and other from 2022. If you sell in GB* your product needs the UKCA standard mark, the CE mark will eventually not be accepted.
* GB only. The new mark will not be accepted in NI where the CE standard will continue as it will in EU states and many markets across the world.
Won’t be easy, or worth it, for many small businesses in GB or NI.

UKCA - UK Conformy Assessed

I assume, as well as having it’s own little standard mark, UKCA is in preparation for future standard divergence.


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> The future is here, well tomorrow.
> New GB standard marking is UKCA. Some products will need it from day one, others end of year and other from 2022. If you sell in GB* your product needs the UKCA standard mark, the CE mark will eventually not be accepted.
> * GB only. The new mark will not be accepted in NI where the CE standard will continue as it will in EU states and many markets across the world.
> Won’t be easy, or worth it, for many small businesses in GB or NI.
> 
> UKCA - UK Conformy Assessed
> 
> I assume, as well as having it’s own little standard mark, UKCA is in preparation for future standard divergence.


My employer sells products (we design and build) to mostly the mainland GB market, but also with the possibility of items ending up in NI; so this has been an area we're also having to look into. I've not been personally involved so I don't know the situation at the moment though.


----------



## Droogs

@dfps you will probably be better off selling the kit locally rather than bring it back to UK as by the look of things you will have to pay import duty on it. From what I can gather it will be much like when I returned from Switzerland, I had to pay import duties on my stuff to the Swiss on the way in and to the UK on the way back even though I had receipts for all the furniture and white goods etc and it showed they were all over 2 years old, even my flaming bike


----------



## Richard_C

When I started this thread it was as a 'heads up' to anyone who regularly or occasionally brings in items from the EU. A few months back there was a useful thread (I think in woodturning/lathes) about ordering a chuck from Australia, how did the total cost compare with buying locally. That sort of informative discussion is helpful

It's turned into a Brexit debate with the odd useful question and comment on practical things. It's all very entertaining I (and I must admit to being very pro Europe for reasons that go well beyond economics) but three things are clear:


Nothing said on here will change anyone else's mind. Opinions are entrenched regardless of facts so there is little point arguing
Nothing on here will influence the bigger debate. If you feel strongly then raise your voice at election time and be careful who you vote for. But do vote, even the EU referendum had a dismal turnout. Even if you convince all the contributors here it makes no difference.
It's done, its over. We live with it whether we like it or not.
So back to the purpose of the post, if you plan to bring stuff in take care and check out what you need to do and what costs and delays you might face, just like you would from any other country.

Happy New Year all, although I won't be celebrating at 11.00 pm (midnight CET) when many of my rights and protections evaporate.


----------



## RobinBHM

Richard_C said:


> When I started this thread it was as a 'heads up' to anyone who regularly or occasionally brings in items from the EU. A few months back there was a useful thread (I think in woodturning/lathes) about ordering a chuck from Australia, how did the total cost compare with buying locally. That sort of informative discussion is helpful
> 
> It's turned into a Brexit debate with the odd useful question and comment on practical things. It's all very entertaining I (and I must admit to being very pro Europe for reasons that go well beyond economics) but three things are clear:
> 
> 
> Nothing said on here will change anyone else's mind. Opinions are entrenched regardless of facts so there is little point arguing
> Nothing on here will influence the bigger debate. If you feel strongly then raise your voice at election time and be careful who you vote for. But do vote, even the EU referendum had a dismal turnout. Even if you convince all the contributors here it makes no difference.
> It's done, its over. We live with it whether we like it or not.
> So back to the purpose of the post, if you plan to bring stuff in take care and check out what you need to do and what costs and delays you might face, just like you would from any other country.
> 
> Happy New Year all, although I won't be celebrating at 11.00 pm (midnight CET) when many of my rights and protections evaporate.


great level headed post

A very happy new to all from me too

Stay safe everybody, I know its getting awfully tedious but keep washing those hands....


----------



## Jonm

Richard_C said:


> When I started this thread it was as a 'heads up' to anyone who regularly or occasionally brings in items from the EU. A few months back there was a useful thread (I think in woodturning/lathes) about ordering a chuck from Australia, how did the total cost compare with buying locally. That sort of informative discussion is helpful
> 
> It's turned into a Brexit debate with the odd useful question and comment on practical things. It's all very entertaining I (and I must admit to being very pro Europe for reasons that go well beyond economics) but three things are clear:
> 
> 
> Nothing said on here will change anyone else's mind. Opinions are entrenched regardless of facts so there is little point arguing
> Nothing on here will influence the bigger debate. If you feel strongly then raise your voice at election time and be careful who you vote for. But do vote, even the EU referendum had a dismal turnout. Even if you convince all the contributors here it makes no difference.
> It's done, its over. We live with it whether we like it or not.
> So back to the purpose of the post, if you plan to bring stuff in take care and check out what you need to do and what costs and delays you might face, just like you would from any other country.
> 
> Happy New Year all, although I won't be celebrating at 11.00 pm (midnight CET) when many of my rights and protections evaporate.


All very true. I think it will take about 10 years from now before we can begin to see what the implications of brexit are both economically and politically. We may see a change in public opinion which may go either way, will we move closer to the EU or further away? Only time will tell.

Will Northern Ireland and/or Scotland leave the UK? Again time will tell.

What I think we should learn is if we have referendums the options should be clearly defined. Not allow one side to claim many advantages, most of which are mutually exclusive. Here I am thinking particularly of a future Scottish Independance referendum.


----------



## Rorschach

Some very hyped up comments on here and people reading into things that aren't there.

There are things that will definitely be good, there are things that will definitely be bad and there are things that we just don't just don't know because they will depend on a whole host of other things to come.
Whatever happens though, moaning about how good it would be if it didn't happen won't help, saying "I told you so" only makes you feel good, but doesn't actually help anything and usually makes the other person think (politely) less of you.

I made my peace with Brexit the day after the referendum, I accepted the result just like I accept the result of every Election I have "lost".
No use getting worked up about something you can change (yet).


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> Just don't make the dog sofa from anything you need to order from outside the UK; no one yet seems to have a clue how to get it into the country.



You seem to like telling me about running my business, but I kept telling you I'm fine and dandy. I have organised everything very well thank you. I guess you haven't then.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> You seem to like telling me about running my business, but I kept telling you I'm fine and dandy. I have organised everything very well thank you. I guess you haven't then.


I don’t believe I've ever told a single soul how to run their business (nor do I plan to start). But... maybe don't enter a thread to stir things up and then get grumpy that you get responses, yea?


----------



## doctor Bob

deleted as I can't be bothered, it's over.


----------



## sploo

Deleted on Dr Bob's request. Not even minor handbags, but it was a fair request.


----------



## Rorschach

@sploo I have to place an order for a product from the EU some time next year (I am fairly well stocked currently). I'll let you how I get on and if I have any trouble. My expectation is that I will have to pay more than I usually do but exactly how much I am not sure yet.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> @sploo I have to place an order for a product from the EU some time next year (I am fairly well stocked currently). I'll let you how I get on and if I have any trouble. My expectation is that I will have to pay more than I usually do but exactly how much I am not sure yet.


Thanks. I assume sellers will have to work this out (rather than customers) as they could fall foul of legal issues or have items delayed, or find end customers getting unexpected charges - none of which you'd want to see happen as a business. Cross fingers it becomes clear reasonably quickly, and without too much in the way of added costs.


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> Thanks. I assume sellers will have to work this out (rather than customers) as they could fall foul of legal issues or have items delayed, or find end customers getting unexpected charges - none of which you'd want to see happen as a business. Cross fingers it becomes clear reasonably quickly, and without too much in the way of added costs.



I anticipate a small import duty to be added, probably in the region of the 2.5% that is listed for lower priced goods. the VAT charge will be the same as it was before I suspect. I doubt I will see any need to raise my prices because of it but we'll see. 
I purposely made sure I wouldn't need to order anything in the first half of 2021 for just this reason, it's selfish I know but I wanted to let others do it first and see their experience.


----------



## marcros

sploo said:


> Thanks. I assume sellers will have to work this out (rather than customers) as they could fall foul of legal issues or have items delayed, or find end customers getting unexpected charges - none of which you'd want to see happen as a business. Cross fingers it becomes clear reasonably quickly, and without too much in the way of added costs.



I would expect that there will normally be a contractual discussion. The seller will do their best to state that all taxes and duties are excluded from the price. The buyer will push for everything to be included. Business to business it probably doesn't matter that much, but may have an impact on cash flow in some circumstances. Much like discussing who pays/arranges for shipping. As a trade buyer we don't mind doing it as long as we are not paying for shipping and still paying the shipper ourselves.

Consumers make things more difficult and there is usually more legal protection for them, or has been with the EU. For example, retail prices quoted in vat. Consumers would likely expect the sellers to work everything out, or at least be very clear about at what point the UK government become responsible- much like buying from the USA. After a certain point, Lie Nielsen say "that's it for what you pay us, but if your government charge more, then you have to pay it".

I haven't read the documents and guidance. I will need to get my head around it when I get back to work but hopefully there will be some more info by then. I am expecting that we will pay more in logistics costs, possibly a bit more for goods if export or import paperwork is required. Some of this will almost certainly be pushed to the suppliers, depending on the market conditions and our bargaining power.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> I purposely made sure I wouldn't need to order anything in the first half of 2021 for just this reason, it's selfish I know but I wanted to let others do it first and see their experience.


I wouldn't consider that selfish - I'd consider that a smart bit of forward planning!

Unfortunately I had some fairly expensive kit die on me just before Xmas, so I suspect I'll be finding out what an early 2021 order is going to look like.


----------



## marcros

sploo said:


> I wouldn't consider that selfish - I'd consider that a smart bit of forward planning!
> 
> Unfortunately I had some fairly expensive kit die on me just before Xmas, so I suspect I'll be finding out what an early 2021 order is going to look like.



just what you need!

price is one thing, availability could be another challenge if it is anything like so many other products.


----------



## Noel

marcros said:


> I would expect that there will normally be a contractual discussion. The seller will do their best to state that all taxes and duties are excluded from the price. The buyer will push for everything to be included. Business to business it probably doesn't matter that much, but may have an impact on cash flow in some circumstances. Much like discussing who pays/arranges for shipping. As a trade buyer we don't mind doing it as long as we are not paying for shipping and still paying the shipper ourselves.
> 
> *Consumers make things more difficult and there is usually more legal protection for them, or has been with the EU*. For example, retail prices quoted in vat. Consumers would likely expect the sellers to work everything out, or at least be very clear about at what point the UK government become responsible- much like buying from the USA. After a certain point, Lie Nielsen say "that's it for what you pay us, but if your government charge more, then you have to pay it".
> 
> I haven't read the documents and guidance. I will need to get my head around it when I get back to work but hopefully there will be some more info by then. I am expecting that we will pay more in logistics costs, possibly a bit more for goods if export or import paperwork is required. Some of this will almost certainly be pushed to the suppliers, depending on the market conditions and our bargaining power.
> [/QUOT



UKgov guidance is that the previous consumer rights have been binned and if you have any issues they point to the local court in the EU state concerned.


----------



## Jake

Noel said:


> UKgov guidance is that the previous consumer rights have been binned and if you have any issues they point to the local court in the EU state concerned.



That is inevitable, as there is no longer any automatic recognition of judgments between UK and EU countries.


----------



## Jake

Government guidance (B2B)








The Border Operating Model


A guide to how the border works with the European Union




www.gov.uk


----------



## sploo

marcros said:


> just what you need!
> 
> price is one thing, availability could be another challenge if it is anything like so many other products.


I've lost count of the number of times I've had something break/get lost/suddenly need to be purchased... about a week before Xmas . It's always a pain, but obviously this time it has potentially added inconvenience - but I guess I'll find out in time!


----------



## Jacob

Richard_C said:


> ....Nothing said on here will change anyone else's mind. Opinions are entrenched regardless of facts so there is little point arguing
> ......


As the problems emerge the remainers (including me) will say we told you so.
The brexiters will say it's all the EU's fault and that the problems just show/prove how EU is over regulated.
Johnson will resign and simply blame everybody and everything for having failed to take advantage of his "amazing achievement".
The worrying thing is that I haven't heard/read anything from the media or anywhere, from anybody who sees a directly and identifiable specific opportunity for themselves, their businesses, least of all their education
There seems to be nothing in it for anybody - except possibly the Irish who might finally move towards a united Ireland, which could make it all worthwhile! Johnson would claim the credit however.
Johnson's dad is applying for French citizenship.
I'm sure I must have an Irish relative, I'll see if I can get a passport!


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> As the problems emerge the remainers (including me) will say we told you so.



While I am sure that makes you feel fantastic and smug and oh so clever, it's not really very helpful is it? I am sure if the situation were reversed and we were having lots of problems inside the EU you would really annoyed if Brexiteers kept saying "I told you so" and being all smug about it. You wouldn't see it as useful you would think poorly of them and rightly so.

It also begs the question, what if things go really well and the UK prospers beyond all predictions and in the meantime the EU collapses due to internal pressures not related to the UK leaving. Will you fess up and say "you were right and I was wrong"?


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> While I am sure that makes you feel fantastic and smug and oh so clever, it's not really very helpful is it?


It wasn't a particularly clever opinion - more like bloody obvious. Not helpful I agree but there's non so blind as those who will not see.
By the way, is help actually needed this soon? Are things not going as predicted?
...


> It also begs the question, what if things go really well and the UK prospers beyond all predictions and in the meantime the EU collapses due to internal pressures not related to the UK leaving. Will you fess up and say "you were right and I was wrong"?


Of course I would! I'd be greatly relieved. Is that really what you think will happen?


----------



## artie

Jacob said:


> I'm sure I must have an Irish relative, I'll see if I can get a passport!


You don't need one.

AFAIK there is free movement within these Islands.

At least for today. lol


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Of course I would! I'd be greatly relieved. Is that what you think will happen?



We'll hold you to that one! lol

My honest view? I think thinks will be OK, I don't think we are going to turn into some kind of prosperous paradise nor do I think we are going to collapse into poverty. We'll have good days and bad days, pretty much like we do now.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> We'll hold you to that one! lol
> 
> My honest view? I think thinks will be OK, I don't think we are going to turn into some kind of prosperous paradise nor do I think we are going to collapse into poverty. We'll have good days and bad days, pretty much like we do now.


You could be right. We will still be effectively in the EU, just with less power and influence. There will obviously be some major set backs, but there will be efforts to remedy them.
It'd be nice to hear from someone who could point us to the advantages in real terms, not just wishful thinking!


----------



## dfps

Droogs said:


> @dfps you will probably be better off selling the kit locally rather than bring it back to UK as by the look of things you will have to pay import duty on it. From what I can gather it will be much like when I returned from Switzerland, I had to pay import duties on my stuff to the Swiss on the way in and to the UK on the way back even though I had receipts for all the furniture and white goods etc and it showed they were all over 2 years old, even my flaming bike


Thanks Droogs....I take on board what you have said and I'm really sorry you got caught out but I spent a lot of my time restoring my mini digger and have got really attached to it so .think I will gives things a bit of time to settle then write to HMRC for a definite answer.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> It'd be nice to hear from someone who could point us to the advantages in real terms, not just wishful thinking!



But you wouldn't agree with what they consider an advantage.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> But you wouldn't agree with what they consider an advantage.


Try me! Not pie in the sky but something real world.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Try me! Not pie in the sky but something real world.



Go on then, for a laugh.

The most obvious seen in the press, after 4 years (or 5?) we regain full control of our fishing waters and quotas. Is that a bad thing?

I avoided the temptation of the removal of free movement as I would get called a racist probably lol.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> Go on then, for a laugh.
> 
> The most obvious seen in the press, after 4 years (or 5?) we regain full control of our fishing waters and quotas. Is that a bad thing?


Hate to say it but that looks extremely doubtful. In fact it always did. There are reports of considerable anger in the fish trade! EU can shut off power supplies if UK tries to seize control of fish stocks, small print of deal reveals


> I avoided the temptation of the removal of free movement as I would get called a racist probably lol.


Not racist as long as you are happy with the simple fact that you too and all UK citizens have also lost freedom of movement.


----------



## Rorschach

See, I knew you would find something bad to say! lol

Regarding free movement, doesn't bother me at all, I have no intentions of living or working in the EU. And it's not like you can't still go and do it, it's just more difficult than it was before. I suspect 99% of the country had no intention of living or working in the EU.


----------



## Jacob

Breaking International News & Views







uk.reuters.com












Scottish fishing industry 'deeply aggrieved' by Brexit deal


The Scottish government claims the industry will have access to fewer cod, haddock and whiting under the new deal.



www.bbc.co.uk












'Boris is a kipper': fury and frustration at Brexit fishing deal in Brixham


Many at the harbour in the Devon town are concerned that their industry has been sold short




www.theguardian.com












How many British citizens live in the EU? - UK in a changing Europe


In 2019, according to UN data, 1.3 million people born in the UK lived in EU countries. Read this fact to find out more.




ukandeu.ac.uk


----------



## billw

Rorschach said:


> The most obvious seen in the press, after 4 years (or 5?) we regain full control of our fishing waters and quotas. Is that a bad thing?



Fishing is 0.1% of the economy. If we have lots more fish for ourselves does that make it cheaper, or do we simply export more? The whole thing always seemed like it was "they're our fish and we want them and if we can't have them we're sulking in a corner" but maybe we just knew that the French would throw an absolute fit over the whole thing and we simply kept out powder dry to extract concessions from the EU.

Regaining control isn't relevant as much as do we need the fish? Do we want them? How much of our stocks can we catch in a year with the current fishing fleet? If it's a number less than 100% then what are complaining about anyway?

Apparently we farm 109% of our lamb requirements, but we still import it from NZ. That seems a bit pointless.


----------



## Jake

Rorschach said:


> if Brexiteers kept saying "I told you so" and being all smug about it. You wouldn't see it as useful you would think poorly of them



Having had a lifetime full of that sort of badly formed opinion and newspaper propaganda I can confirm.


----------



## Jake

artie said:


> You don't need one.
> 
> AFAIK there is free movement within these Islands.
> 
> At least for today. lol



For pleasure not for business. CTA does not cover business.


----------



## Jake

billw said:


> Apparently we farm 109% of our lamb requirements, but we still import it from NZ. That seems a bit pointless.



I bet that is measured in weight. We are such narrow minded eaters that we only eat some cuts in any quantity, and so the bits we on average do not want get exported. We then buy in more bits we do like from NZ. We are also (on average) less willing to pay for quality, so there is a lot of the prized stuff (eg salt marsh) getting exported to those who will pay a premium for it that we will not. That brings in £ to the country, as we substitute with cheaper NZ stuff.


----------



## Awac

Rorschach said:


> See, I knew you would find something bad to say! lol
> 
> Regarding free movement, doesn't bother me at all, I have no intentions of living or working in the EU. And it's not like you can't still go and do it, it's just more difficult than it was before. I suspect 99% of the country had no intention of living or working in the EU.



You are right, you can still do it, and it is more difficult, it will take money. The people who have driven this brexit have the money to do as they like, and if it goes bad? No problem.

You don't want to live in the EU but I do. I don't like the way it is narrowing choice unless you have money. It feels to me as if brexit is designed to keep people _*in.*_

I just don't understand how much better it can be? Please tell me I am wrong.

*I do not now want any shortages, I expect everything to be better in life because that is what has been promised. *
*Anything else would not be acceptable. *
*Now honestly, does anyone really think this will happen for the common man?*

I have many European friends who are brother/sister woodworkers, I am not different from them today because some oaf cracks a joke and a deadline at 23:00hrs tells me I am.


----------



## Awac

Jacob said:


> Breaking International News & Views
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uk.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scottish fishing industry 'deeply aggrieved' by Brexit deal
> 
> 
> The Scottish government claims the industry will have access to fewer cod, haddock and whiting under the new deal.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Boris is a kipper': fury and frustration at Brexit fishing deal in Brixham
> 
> 
> Many at the harbour in the Devon town are concerned that their industry has been sold short
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many British citizens live in the EU? - UK in a changing Europe
> 
> 
> In 2019, according to UN data, 1.3 million people born in the UK lived in EU countries. Read this fact to find out more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ukandeu.ac.uk


_Privilegie der Visscherie_ was given in 1666 in which King Charles II granted 50 Flemish fishermen from Bruges “eternal rights” to English fishing waters.
Bruges was part of the Southern Netherlands, controlled by Spain. The offer had been Charles’s way of showing gratitude for the hospitality he received when he stayed there during the interregnum that followed the decapitation of his father, King Charles I, and his own restoration to the throne.


----------



## billw

Awac said:


> _Privilegie der Visscherie_ was given in 1666 in which King Charles II granted 50 Flemish fishermen from Bruges “eternal rights” to English fishing waters.
> Bruges was part of the Southern Netherlands, controlled by Spain. The offer had been Charles’s way of showing gratitude for the hospitality he received when he stayed there during the interregnum that followed the decapitation of his father, King Charles I, and his own restoration to the throne.



Blimey that's an interesting one. My interest in territorial waters was always affected by Gibraltar's position. Spain say they never ceded territorial waters and they're still Spanish, despite Gibraltar being ceded in 1713 and the concept of territorial waters didn't exist so clearly wasn't covered - same as airspace which in the early 18th century was definitely top of the list of things to consider given the flourishing aviation industry at the time


----------



## Awac

billw said:


> Blimey that's an interesting one. My interest in territorial waters was always affected by Gibraltar's position. Spain say they never ceded territorial waters and they're still Spanish, despite Gibraltar being ceded in 1713 and the concept of territorial waters didn't exist so clearly wasn't covered - same as airspace which in the early 18th century was definitely top of the list of things to consider given the flourishing aviation industry at the time



Let's not mention Ceuta....

_"The government of Morocco has repeatedly called for Spain to transfer the sovereignty of Ceuta and Melilla, along with uninhabited islets such as the islands of Alhucemas, Velez and the Perejil island, drawing comparisons with Spain's territorial claim to Gibraltar. In both cases, the national governments and local populations of the disputed territories reject these claims by a large majority.[44] The Spanish position states that both Ceuta and Melilla are integral parts of Spain, and have been since the 16th century, centuries prior to Morocco's independence from France in 1956, whereas Gibraltar, being a British Overseas Territory, is not and never has been part of the United Kingdom"-Wikipedia

Sigh. You know, the world is full of two fleas fighting over a dogs back....perhaps I should quote "property is theft" _Pierre-Joseph Proudhon-1840 or ooer Misses, Marquis de Sade 1797 _ "Tracing the right of property back to its source, one infallibly arrives at usurpation. However, theft is only punished because it violates the right of property; but this right is itself nothing in origin but theft"._

So territorial claims are fraught with difficulties......the world is getting smaller and resources are going to be a premium, expect more disputes I think.


----------



## billw

Awac said:


> Let's not mention Ceuta....
> 
> So territorial claims are fraught with difficulties......the world is getting smaller and resources are going to be a premium, expect more disputes I think.



Yes the irony of the double standards is superb. Ceuta's a very weird place, it's not in NATO because it's on the African continent but it's part of Spain which is, it's in the EU but not in the customs union despite the fact Spain is.

It's nice to visit though, although they tend to shoo you away from venturing too close to the fence in case you photograph all the sad looking Africans plotting how to scale the fence.


----------



## Awac

Never been Ceuta but Gibraltar a few times. Funny story, I knew a guy called Fred who was working on re-surfacing of the runway and was driving the road sweeper, apparently he did not get much sleep until one day he woke up under water, as he had driven right off the end of the runway...


----------



## houtslager

dfps said:


> I have a micro digger and 4x4 mini dumper at a property in France that I took over last year.
> I have little in the way of proof that I took them over from the UK on the ferry on a trailer apart from some random photos of the machine in the UK and the machine on a trailer prior to leaving so am a bit concerned how I would fair when I have to bring them back to the UK sometime later this year after Brexit !
> 
> Bit niche I supposed but other people must have similar large equipment or tooling in the EU that they took over from the UK ?
> 
> Anyone ?


YES That's my biggest fear , been working in France doing a major reno / rebuild job and took nearly my whole workshop over wtih me including my startrite ta 275 saw , but no after a few euro buys of some kit, when I return home I'm wondering will I get hit with import + vat on all my tooling.

If so , I'll just turn around and go back , pipper paying those taxes. !

Karl [ currently stuck in a Dutch lockdown ☹ ]


----------



## Awac

houtslager said:


> YES That's my biggest fear , been working in France doing a major reno / rebuild job and took nearly my whole workshop over wtih me including my startrite ta 275 saw , but no after a few euro buys of some kit, when I return home I'm wondering will I get hit with import + vat on all my tooling.
> 
> If so , I'll just turn around and go back , pipper paying those taxes. !
> 
> Karl [ currently stuck in a Dutch lockdown ☹ ]



You are not alone with this one....have a project barn build myself....


----------



## houtslager

Awac said:


> You are not alone with this one....have a project barn build myself....


where in France , as I'm back in the Lyon / Grenoble region once lockdown and travel restrictions are over. Got a kitchen to build in ssitu and make a load of internal doors [ copying original ] also in situ.

K


----------



## Richard_C

With a UK passport you have free movement within Ireland. With an Irish passport you have full EU rights to travel, live, work and retire in any or all of 27 countries, from the Arctic circle to rhe Mediterranean sea, be part of the biggest free trade zone the world has ever seen, and enjoy protections and rights guaranteed by the ECJ. There is a difference.


----------



## RobinBHM

Richard_C said:


> With a UK passport you have free movement within Ireland. With an Irish passport you have full EU rights to travel, live, work and retire in any or all of 27 countries, from the Arctic circle to rhe Mediterranean sea, be part of the biggest free trade zone the world has ever seen, and enjoy protections and rights guaranteed by the ECJ. There is a difference.



NI stays in SM for goods.....potential for lots of FDI.

And Arlene Foster did more towards reunification than any politician for decades


----------



## Awac

Richard_C said:


> With a UK passport you have free movement within Ireland. With an Irish passport you have full EU rights to travel, live, work and retire in any or all of 27 countries, from the Arctic circle to rhe Mediterranean sea, be part of the biggest free trade zone the world has ever seen, and enjoy protections and rights guaranteed by the ECJ. There is a difference.



And as one of those lucky individuals with duel nationality and both passports, I am going to have such fun at customs...I am just saddened that people who want to travel/live are restricted, it seems so retrogressive.


----------



## clogs

nobody has asked about vac cleaners.....
can we get the high powered one back.....????? LOL...
now we are free to decide for ouselves.....
straight bannanas and cucumbers are a thing of the past.....

Here in Crete I've heard grumbles of "WISH IT WERE US".....also when living in the Charente region of FR an awful lot of locals wish they could join the Brexit / Frexit camp......
not a lot of happy campers within the EU either....

just an idea.....for those with big kit that want to take it back...strip it down to create used spare parts.....wink wink....
who would know the value of a panel saw top etc......just mix up the parts in differant boxes and seperate trips....
the 4x4 dumper and mini digger are worth more in FR than the UK anyway and they are not cheap to move.....
when we moved here the only thing we brought with us was a brand new American fridge freezer bought buy mistake (we got the old one working) and was on a 50% discount offer....everything else was sold or given away....just not worth the transports costs....
as for machines and tooling a 1920's pick up truck and 2 antique tractors we used 2 forty foot artic's .....hahaha.....


----------



## Just4Fun

houtslager said:


> YES That's my biggest fear , been working in France doing a major reno / rebuild job and took nearly my whole workshop over wtih me including my startrite ta 275 saw , but no after a few euro buys of some kit, when I return home I'm wondering will I get hit with import + vat on all my tooling.


I am in the same position but in reverse. I have a load of stuff in the UK that I intended to bring over here (Finland) in 2020. With the COVID situation that didn't happen - who knows when a road trip through about 9 countries is going to be possible? When I do try it I assume I am going to have problems with customs somewhere.


----------



## Rorschach

Awac said:


> I am just saddened that people who want to travel/live are restricted, it seems so retrogressive.



For some I am sure it is sad, but how many people does that actually represent vs the people who struggle because the borders are open to those who want to come here?

Judging by a lot of the comments here it seems to boil back down to a point that has been raised before, the haves vs the have nots. The people who wanted to remain appear to me to be people with money and comfort. Second homes in France, renovation projects, retired like to travel. 
I don't have a problem with that, I don't begrudge anyone for enjoying the benefits of their capital whether hard earned or not. But people who think like that seem to forget that the vast majority of the country is not in that position. 
I am sure it would be lovely to have a second home in the south of Spain, I love Spain and spending my winters there would be much nicer than spending them here, but that isn't a realistic prospect for me or anyone I know.


----------



## jcassidy

Rorschach said:


> If you listen to some former MEP's you will find that a lot of EU law was written with a great deal (possibly a large majority) of UK input, so it's not so much that we are following laws written by the EU as much as we are following laws written largely by ourselves.



That's just not accurate. All EU law is written with a great deal of input from ALL the EU countries with an interest. I've been exposed to the process, the biggest influence comes from whoever holds the EU Presiency, which rotates every six months.
Nothing becomes law without all States approving it, so thinking that the French, Germans or Italians are blindly signing off on UK-written rules is nonsense.


----------



## Rorschach

jcassidy said:


> That's just not accurate. All EU law is written with a great deal of input from ALL the EU countries with an interest. I've been exposed to the process, the biggest influence comes from whoever holds the EU Presiency, which rotates every six months.
> Nothing becomes law without all States approving it, so thinking that the French, Germans or Italians are blindly signing off on UK-written rules is nonsense.



You have clearly not understood what I have written there.


----------



## custard

Richard_C said:


> With a UK passport you have free movement within Ireland. With an Irish passport you have full EU rights to travel, live, work and retire in any or all of 27 countries, from the Arctic circle to rhe Mediterranean sea



+1

Yesterday I had the freedom to live and work anywhere in Europe, waking up today that's no longer the case. I get that the vote's done and it's time to move on, but the truth is that right now I feel the loss of that freedom sorely, a lot more than I expected to.

I've got duel citizenship, British and Canadian. I'll stick around for a year or two, but if I still feel this same sense of loss of liberty, then a move to Vancouver's on the cards.


----------



## Awac

Rorschach said:


> For some I am sure it is sad, but how many people does that actually represent vs the people who struggle because the borders are open to those who want to come here?
> 
> Judging by a lot of the comments here it seems to boil back down to a point that has been raised before, the haves vs the have nots. The people who wanted to remain appear to me to be people with money and comfort. Second homes in France, renovation projects, retired like to travel.
> I don't have a problem with that, I don't begrudge anyone for enjoying the benefits of their capital whether hard earned or not. But people who think like that seem to forget that the vast majority of the country is not in that position.
> I am sure it would be lovely to have a second home in the south of Spain, I love Spain and spending my winters there would be much nicer than spending them here, but that isn't a realistic prospect for me or anyone I know.



_"In the distance and through the darkness we can see the brightly illuminated pub sign of our destination"_-Boris Johnstone (New year message). I think we can see what Boris thinks about the majority of the population, show them a pub and they will follow you.If that is his vision of the Uk, it is very narrow.

Perception. I am not rich. I have accommodation provided by work. I bought a "project" and I mean a project 7 years ago. I go back in winter for a couple of months and do a little more with what I have scraped together every year.The EU allowed me to live where I want and I was on track to build my modest retirement home over the next 15 years. I always wanted a barn, it's to do with the wood y'see.

You don't begrudge anyone for having "capital" hard earned or not? Now then brother, I begrudge anything which stops the "have nots" living how they want.
But I think your real problem is _" the people who struggle because the borders are open to those who want to come here?" _So now that the borders are closed no one is going to struggle any more in the Uk? Wow, who doesn't want to live in the land of milk and honey? I'm interested, how is your life going to change?


----------



## billw

Awac said:


> So now that the borders are closed no one is going to struggle any more in the Uk? Wow, who doesn't want to live in the land of milk and honey? I'm interested, how is your life going to change?



Recall this summer just gone, when farmers were struggling to get the usual immigrant workforce to pick crops. Behold! All those damned immigrants can't steal our jobs now! The poor can rejoice for there is opportunity at last.

Then stuff rotted in fields because nobody wanted to do the work for the money on offer. The same people who'd kick up a fuss about carrots going up 5p a kilo if the workforce was paid more.

Can't win. It's all utter nonsense.

FWIW from an academic standpoint, the white working class are somewhat vilified and feel victimised, I fear that BoJo is going to attempt a nationalistic campaign of Trumpian proportions to gee them up a bit.


----------



## doctor Bob

billw said:


> Then stuff rotted in fields because nobody wanted to do the work for the money on offer. The same people who'd kick up a fuss about carrots going up 5p a kilo if the workforce was paid more.



I really don't want any involvement in this thread but need to put a point down.
My 28 year old newphew picked spring onions in Kent last year, along with 30 uk people and 40 romanians. The gang master was Romanian, he withheld wages of the UK guys for 3 weeks eventually 25 walked off unpaid, my nephew worked for 60 days and got paid for 18 in the end. Romanians were given accomadation, UK not, he lived in a camper van. Not a thing he could do. It was peice work and he reckoned he worked at about 80% of a typical experienced ganger. Sounds like grapes of wrath.


----------



## Awac

Obviously this thread is bringing up quite a few deep feelings.

Brexit was sold on emotions. 52% v 48%. 
The country has had a huge decision made by 2% of people (demographic older, and probably dead by now, so their vote effects younger people now coming of voting age). In a company you need 75% vote to pass an extraordinary resolution. As a remain, I would not have been happy with only a 2% majority. A non-partisan public funded report should have been put forward to the public. We all think we are right, but nobody has produced such a report that we could have voted on with an _informed_ _non emotional_ opinion. I could accept the result then.

The original question was bringing in goods from the EU. _*Does goods also include knowledge and cooperation?*_
In Germany they have travelling journeymen, their pilgrimage is fairly simple: walk around the world for three years with only a light bundle. Knock on random doors, and see if strangers will put you up and feed you in exchange for fixing their roofs, making furniture and tailoring their clothes. The practice fell out of favour in the industrial age, but craftsmen still wandered up until the 1920s. Then the Nazis banned it, and the Berlin Wall made the travelling nearly impossible, but after the 80s, it slowly began to return. 






Photo. Wikipedia.

The point? Exchange of information. Communication. What a fantastic way to learn a craft. This is what makes people and communities stronger. The more segregated you are, the more controlled you are. Brexit is going to make this harder. Besides who wouldn't want to wear this! Cool!


----------



## Jacob

Gotta start making the best of a bad job and rethinking a few things? 
Interesting read: 








The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Larry Elliott


Those who predict economic Armageddon ignore the reality. The status quo wasn’t working, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott




www.theguardian.com




"....The four freedoms of the single market – no barriers to the movement of goods, services, people and capital – are actually the four pillars of neoliberalism...."


----------



## stuartpaul

custard said:


> I've got duel citizenship, British and Canadian. I'll stick around for a year or two, but if I still feel this same sense of loss of liberty, then a move to Vancouver's on the cards.


Carry your bag sir?


----------



## jcassidy

@Rorschach, you wrote "a lot of EU law was written with a great deal (possibly a large majority) of UK input, so it's not so much that we are following laws written by the EU as much as we are following laws written largely by ourselves."

With utmost respect for your opinion that the UK will be ok after BREXIT (which I'm inclined to agree with, long-term), it is simply not accurate to suggest that the UK has a majority say in general in EU regulations. 

Obviously if the UK is very interested in any particular Directive or Regulation, and no-one else could care less, then in that case, the proposal may largely be written by UK negotiators. That goes the same for any other Directive or Regulation and for any other country. For example, I doubt if the UK had any great interest in bank resolution regulations, as the UK was never a member of the Euro, but would have been heavily invested in financial markets regulation.

Therefore it is not accurate to say that "we are following laws written largely by ourselves". If that was accurate, then there'd be no case for BREXIT at all.

The fact is, the EU is a union of diverse countries and cultures, with different and conflicting interests and priorities. Whilst the UK wins some, it loses some, and this is what is intolerable for the ascendent BREXIT wing of the Conservative party.

I understood perfectly what you meant, it's just not accurate.


----------



## Awac

doctor Bob said:


> I really don't want any involvement in this thread but need to put a point down.
> My 28 year old newphew picked spring onions in Kent last year, along with 30 uk people and 40 romanians. The gang master was Romanian, he withheld wages of the UK guys for 3 weeks eventually 25 walked off unpaid, my nephew worked for 60 days and got paid for 18 in the end. Romanians were given accomadation, UK not, he lived in a camper van. Not a thing he could do. It was peice work and he reckoned he worked at about 80% of a typical experienced ganger. Sounds like grapes of wrath.



And the Irish famine was exacerbated by the English government, doesn't make you a bad person by being English. My point is bad and good in every culture and people. This is a bad person we are talking about, not a nationality.


----------



## jcassidy

Awac said:


> In Germany they have travelling journeymen, their pilgrimage is fairly simple: walk around the world for three years with only a light bundle. Knock on random doors, and see if strangers will put you up and feed you in exchange for fixing their roofs, making furniture and tailoring their clothes. The practice fell out of favour in the industrial age, but craftsmen still wandered up until the 1920s. Then the Nazis banned it, and the Berlin Wall made the travelling nearly impossible, but after the 80s, it slowly began to return.



Such wandering German craftsman worked on Jeremy Irons castle for a time.

" There was the pair of Germans who happened along the road one day in stovepipe hats and tailcoats, observing an archaic rite known as _Wanderjahr,_ in which apprentice craftsmen, upon completing their training, spend several years journeying and improving upon their craft, their costumes conveying to potential employers that they are not vagabonds. One of the Germans was a carpenter and the other a stonemason. “They carved all our figurative windows, and then, after six months, they were off,” said Irons."

How Jeremy Irons Rescued and Restored a 15th-Century Irish Castle


----------



## Rorschach

custard said:


> +1
> 
> Yesterday I had the freedom to live and work anywhere in Europe, waking up today that's no longer the case. I get that the vote's done and it's time to move on, but the truth is that right now I feel the loss of that freedom sorely, a lot more than I expected to.
> 
> I've got duel citizenship, British and Canadian. I'll stick around for a year or two, but if I still feel this same sense of loss of liberty, then a move to Vancouver's on the cards.



You have had knowledge of this for 4 years, why didn't you move in those 4 years? Did you actually ever intend to live in Europe or is it only an issue now because it would be more difficult from today?


----------



## Rorschach

Awac said:


> I'm interested, how is your life going to change?



My life? As far as I can tell I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive (I think, not sure on that yet). 
I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power. Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.


----------



## doctor Bob

Awac said:


> And the Irish famine was exacerbated by the English government, doesn't make you a bad person by being English. My point is bad and good in every culture and people. This is a bad person we are talking about, not a nationality.



I think you missed the point of my post but it doesn't matter.


----------



## Rorschach

jcassidy said:


> I understood perfectly what you meant, it's just not accurate.



Best take that up with former MEP's like Baroness Claire Fox then. Her words, not mine.


----------



## Richard_C

The 4 underlying EU principles do look a lot like a neoliberal wish list, but unlike any other trading block the EU has balanced that with strict protections for its citizens.

The mobility rights might appeal more to the better off, but the protections enshrined in EU law have done far more for the less well off than people realise. It's not just employment rights, its consumer rights, data protection, environmental, food standards, fair(er) banking, all sorts put into UK law because of EU directives. The UK acting alone would never have tidied up the TUPE loopholes that allowed employers to dismiss staff if they sold the business, introduced extended maternity rights, given at least some rights to part time and agency workers, stopped pumping untreated raw sewage into the sea or insisted on traceability of many foods. So when a close relative is fired, or gets pregnant, or finds their employer sold off, or many other things look back to what it would have been like for them 48 years ago. EU directives set out a minimum, countries can do more, just look at maternity rights and pay in Scandinavia, so all the bluster about now we are out we can make things better is just that, cheap soundbite bluster. 

Now, I know Johnson and May before him promised to maintain all those things, but the legal obligation to do so was quietly dropped from the withdrawal bill. So now the UK Govt is free to do as it pleases and argue about tariffs afterwards. 

Lots of people, particularly those in precarious employment, have to rely on Johnson keeping his promises. He doesn't have a good record. 

The EU runs on consensus politics. It takes time but the extremes get weeded out. That is an anathema to our "Britain is best, I have the right to do what I want and do it now" rhetoric around sovereignty. We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.

I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.


----------



## Awac

Rorschach said:


> My life? As far as I can tell I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive (I think, not sure on that yet).
> I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power. Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.



We have different opinions, and neither of us knows. If you make a business decision without all the facts and it goes wrong then people will say "what did you expect, you have been very cavalier in your attitude". I see no difference with what has happened with brexit. I wish you luck with finding a house, I know the problem. For or against, I still hold with what I said:

_"A non-partisan public funded report should have been put forward to the public. We all think we are right, but nobody has produced such a report that we could have voted on with an informed non emotional opinion. I could accept the result then"._


----------



## Rorschach

Richard_C said:


> We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.
> 
> I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.



Now this is an area I must take issue with. Firstly we have no idea what things would have been like outside of the EU for the last 50 years, so you can't say that we are better protected because of it, especially since we were a contributing partner so we had a say in all those laws being created. We could have had the same, similar or even better protection if we had been independent, you don't know because UK politics in that period has been shaped by membership.

Secondly, if you don't like the current situation, vote, campaign, stand for Parliament. You don't put trust in governments, you vote them in and then if they don't do what you wanted, you vote them out. That's democracy.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> My life? As far as I can tell I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive (I think, not sure on that yet).
> I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power. Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.


OK so in or out makes no difference to you but can you tell us how it will benefit anybody else: directly that is, in real terms, personally, not remote pie in the sky? This seems to be the question which nobody ever answers.


----------



## Awac

Richard_C said:


> The 4 underlying EU principles do look a lot like a neoliberal wish list, but unlike any other trading block the EU has balanced that with strict protections for its citizens.
> 
> The mobility rights might appeal more to the better off, but the protections enshrined in EU law have done far more for the less well off than people realise. It's not just employment rights, its consumer rights, data protection, environmental, food standards, fair(er) banking, all sorts put into UK law because of EU directives. The UK acting alone would never have tidied up the TUPE loopholes that allowed employers to dismiss staff if they sold the business, introduced extended maternity rights, given at least some rights to part time and agency workers, stopped pumping untreated raw sewage into the sea or insisted on traceability of many foods. So when a close relative is fired, or gets pregnant, or finds their employer sold off, or many other things look back to what it would have been like for them 48 years ago. EU directives set out a minimum, countries can do more, just look at maternity rights and pay in Scandinavia, so all the bluster about now we are out we can make things better is just that, cheap soundbite bluster.
> 
> Now, I know Johnson and May before him promised to maintain all those things, but the legal obligation to do so was quietly dropped from the withdrawal bill. So now the UK Govt is free to do as it pleases and argue about tariffs afterwards.
> 
> Lots of people, particularly those in precarious employment, have to rely on Johnson keeping his promises. He doesn't have a good record.
> 
> The EU runs on consensus politics. It takes time but the extremes get weeded out. That is an anathema to our "Britain is best, I have the right to do what I want and do it now" rhetoric around sovereignty. We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.
> 
> I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.



Hit the nail squarely on the head.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> OK so in or out makes no difference to you but can you tell us how it will benefit anybody else: directly that is, in real terms, personally, not remote pie in the sky? This seems to be the question which nobody ever answers.



I tried, you didn't like it you just posted articles from remainer media sources.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> I tried, you didn't like it you just posted articles from remainer media sources.


Try again? n.b. they weren't only remainer sources if you have a look.


----------



## Awac

Jacob said:


> OK so in or out makes no difference to you but can you tell us how it will benefit anybody else: directly that is, in real terms, personally, not remote pie in the sky? This seems to be the question which nobody ever answers.





Rorschach said:


> My life? As far as I can tell *I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever*, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive *(I think, not sure on that yet)*.
> I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power.* Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.*



Jacob, he has answered that. He doesn't know.
Brexit. Such a big decision, so little information.
It has been driven by people who want to be big fishes in a little pond in my opinion (my opinion, not fact!).


----------



## Jacob

Richard_C said:


> The 4 underlying EU principles do look a lot like a neoliberal wish list, but unlike any other trading block the EU has balanced that with strict protections for its citizens.
> 
> The mobility rights might appeal more to the better off, but the protections enshrined in EU law have done far more for the less well off than people realise. It's not just employment rights, its consumer rights, data protection, environmental, food standards, fair(er) banking, all sorts put into UK law because of EU directives. The UK acting alone would never have tidied up the TUPE loopholes that allowed employers to dismiss staff if they sold the business, introduced extended maternity rights, given at least some rights to part time and agency workers, stopped pumping untreated raw sewage into the sea or insisted on traceability of many foods. So when a close relative is fired, or gets pregnant, or finds their employer sold off, or many other things look back to what it would have been like for them 48 years ago. EU directives set out a minimum, countries can do more, just look at maternity rights and pay in Scandinavia, so all the bluster about now we are out we can make things better is just that, cheap soundbite bluster.
> 
> Now, I know Johnson and May before him promised to maintain all those things, but the legal obligation to do so was quietly dropped from the withdrawal bill. So now the UK Govt is free to do as it pleases and argue about tariffs afterwards.
> 
> Lots of people, particularly those in precarious employment, have to rely on Johnson keeping his promises. He doesn't have a good record.
> 
> The EU runs on consensus politics. It takes time but the extremes get weeded out. That is an anathema to our "Britain is best, I have the right to do what I want and do it now" rhetoric around sovereignty. We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.
> 
> I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.


That Guardian article points out that although the UK neoliberals are now released from EU civilising influences, there may yet be an alternative Labour govt which could benefit from freedom from EU constraints. It might all work out for the best!








The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Larry Elliott


Those who predict economic Armageddon ignore the reality. The status quo wasn’t working, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Trainee neophyte

People seem to be assuming the worst here: just because you no longer have an automatic right to travel, work, or live in the EU, it doesn't mean you are completely forbidden, for ever. It just means a little bit of paperwork, which you would probably have to have completed anyway. Europeans like identity cards, residency permits et al, and they require all of that even for EU "citizens". If you want to buy a house in France and live there full time, it just takes a bit more paperwork now.

The only people who will struggle to live there full-time will be the unemployed and unqualified. Even then, your average Brit will be in a much better position than an indigent Afghani or Nigerian, both of which are ten a penny all across the EU.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> I tried, you didn't like it you just posted articles from remainer media sources.


That's rather missing the point; the changes to fishing rights was raised as a benefit, but it's actually the British fishing industry that seems to be rather unhappy with the end result (I believe one direct quote was "a fudge"). Which paper(s) that was reported in doesn't really matter (unless it's believed that the report itself is factually untrue).


----------



## Jacob

Trainee neophyte said:


> People seem to be assuming the worst here: just because you no longer have an automatic right to travel, work, or live in the EU, it doesn't mean you are completely forbidden, for ever. It just means a little bit of paperwork, which you would probably have to have completed anyway. Europeans like identity cards, residency permits et al, and they require all of that even for EU "citizens". If you want to buy a house in France and live there full time, it just takes a bit more paperwork now.
> 
> The only people who will struggle to live there full-time will be the unemployed and unqualified. Even then, your average Brit will be in a much better position than an indigent Afghani or Nigerian, both of which are ten a penny all across the EU.


You have slightly missed the point.
It is the unemployed, unqualified, refugees of various sorts, who have most to gain by moving; to find employment, training, education, qualifications, to make them independent and to make them net contributors to society.
There's been an EU move towards the "social chapter" i.e. concern about quality of lives, as well as facilitating trade and business which is was kicked it off. Now being "revised" in the UK.








European Social Charter - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Rorschach

I must admit it is lovely to see a debate going on here without resorts to personal insults. I wonder if it is because certain members are not involved or maybe the topic isn't as emotive?


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> I must admit it is lovely to see a debate going on here without resorts to personal insults. I wonder if it is because certain members are not involved or maybe the topic isn't as emotive?


Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?



Nothing wrong with being opinionated, I certainly am. It's when you attack others because they hold a different one that you get trouble.


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?


Yep. I'd hate anybody to think I wasn't still an opinionated a-hole!


----------



## RobinBHM

Jacob said:


> Gotta start making the best of a bad job and rethinking a few things?
> Interesting read:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> Those who predict economic Armageddon ignore the reality. The status quo wasn’t working, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "....The four freedoms of the single market – no barriers to the movement of goods, services, people and capital – are actually the four pillars of neoliberalism...."



this is actually a very interesting philosophical point -something I find interesting from a political ideology standpoint.

the free movement of Labour does benefit neo liberalism, it young working age migration certainly favours capitalism.

But you also have to remember it allows people from poor countries to move to richer lands -I know Polish people that have settled in the UK and are now running their own businesses -so its a 2 way street

Some of the Eastern European countries like Poland have benefitted a great deal from EU investment in infrastructure -wages there are now far higher than they were.


----------



## RobinBHM

Jacob said:


> Yep. I'd hate anybody to think I wasn't still an opinionated a-hole!


dont worry you safe on that one


----------



## sploo

Jacob said:


> Yep. I'd hate anybody to think I wasn't still an opinionated a-hole!


Maybe we need to ask the mods for an "Opinionated a-hole" subforum; with access only being granted with evidence of history of being a belligerent git  

(I'm in, BTW)


----------



## RobinBHM

jcassidy said:


> The fact is, the EU is a union of diverse countries and cultures, with different and conflicting interests and priorities. Whilst the UK wins some, it loses some, and this is what is intolerable for the ascendent BREXIT wing of the Conservative party.



Brexit is a vehicle to increase opportunities those in power to deregulate for self interest. Covid emergency legislation is a rather useful example of what we will see over the next few years.....removal of checks and balances to avoid scrutiny. The Tufton street network is a shocking insight into how all the disparate groups are connected.


----------



## sneggysteve

houtslager said:


> YES That's my biggest fear , been working in France doing a major reno / rebuild job and took nearly my whole workshop over wtih me including my startrite ta 275 saw , but no after a few euro buys of some kit, when I return home I'm wondering will I get hit with import + vat on all my tooling.
> 
> If so , I'll just turn around and go back , pipper paying those taxes. !
> 
> Karl [ currently stuck in a Dutch lockdown ☹ ]




I would think that the process wil be similar to that which applied to persons returning home from outside EU. See the attached Public Notice No 5 section 7


----------



## Awac

Jacob said:


> Yep. I'd hate anybody to think I wasn't still an opinionated a-hole!


What does the A stand for.....?


----------



## sploo

Awac said:


> What does the A stand for.....?


Bottom


----------



## Misterdog

Rorschach said:


> The fact that european car manufacturers happily make RHD vehicles solely for the UK market



There is also life away from the EU. over 50% of our trade is already with that little place called the 'rest of the world'.

RHD vehicles are also used by around 30 %. of the worlds population including Japan and Australia.


----------



## Jacob

Misterdog said:


> There is also life away from the EU. over 50% of our trade is already with that little place called the 'rest of the world'.


But the other 50% is only 20 miles away by sea


> RHD vehicles are also used by around 30 %. of the worlds population including Japan and Australia.


Every maker makes RHD vehicles anyway. We have no competitive advantage, nor a motor industry for that matter.


----------



## Misterdog

Jacob said:


> But the other 50% is only 20 miles away by sea



It's cheaper to ship from China than it is to ship 20 miles by road in the EU.
Though shipping (container) costs have risen dramatically over the last 12 months which will result in some hefty price increases.

Some will see this as good news as they will blame these increases on Brexit.
In the same way that the rest of the world does not exist.


----------



## billw

Always laugh when the shipping cost on Banggood is about 50p to get it sent about 8,000 miles whilst it costs about 70p to post a cheque to the bank.


----------



## sploo

Misterdog said:


> It's cheaper to ship from China than it is to ship 20 miles by road in the EU.


I think it would be more accurate to say that an end consumer is currently charged less for an item shipped from China. It's difficult to see a way that the actual shipping costs wouldn't be more expensive.

I suspect the free/cheap shipping is built into the item pricing; as free shipping is a good psychological pull for buyers.


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> I suspect the free/cheap shipping is built into the item pricing; as free shipping is a good psychological pull for buyers.



Exactly, free shipping isn't free you're paying for it in the price of the item already.


----------



## artie

Misterdog said:


> It's cheaper to ship from China than it is to ship 20 miles by road in the EU.
> Though shipping (container) costs have risen dramatically over the last 12 months which will result in some hefty price increases.


I watched a documentary about modern cargo ships a few years back. The sheer size and amount of stuff they carry is mind boggling 

One of the many nuggets of information imparted was that it cost more to move a 40" tv from the docks to Currys than it did to move it from China to the docks.
Only seeing the sheer volume of goods on a modern ship allows me to believe that


----------



## doctor Bob

I once saw a programme about shipping and it stated it cost 35p shipping per pair of levi jeans from China to England.

Having said that due to lack of containers and empty containers sitting all over the world, containers have gone from $750 to $5000 approx for shipping costs. I believe it's $10000 to USA now.


----------



## billw

artie said:


> One of the many nuggets of information imparted was that it cost more to move a 40" tv from the docks to Currys than it did to move it from China to the docks.
> Only seeing the sheer volume of goods on a modern ship allows me to believe that



I saw what was the largest container ship in the world at the time docked in Algeciras. I might have been about 5 miles across the bay from it but it still looked absolutely colossal. Can't remember the stat on how many containers it could carry but it made cheap shipping seem plausible!


----------



## selectortone

sploo said:


> I think it would be more accurate to say that an end consumer is currently charged less for an item shipped from China. It's difficult to see a way that the actual shipping costs wouldn't be more expensive.
> 
> I suspect the free/cheap shipping is built into the item pricing; as free shipping is a good psychological pull for buyers.



The Chinese government subsidises, or pays entirely, for shipping costs of stuff we buy from Banggood, AliExpress et al. Unless we wake up and start to support local manufacturing they will have no competition eventually. Then look out.


----------



## jcassidy

Rorschach said:


> Best take that up with former MEP's like Baroness Claire Fox then. Her words, not mine.



LOL Because we should all take what a former revolutionary-communists says as gospel. Like when she said there was no genocide in Bosnia, Gary Glitter had a right to download child porn if he wanted to, and House of Lords is a gross offence against democracy and must be abolished, and all. 

In normal times, someone like her would be unelectable.


----------



## Mark Hancock

There are a number of comments regarding shipping costs from China and the EU but I suspect those observations are based on only economic considerations and little else. It was interesting to watch Mark Carney's recent talks especially the one about the ethics of business practice and it's affects on the wider community. IMHO the man talks a lot of sense.


----------



## artie

selectortone said:


> The Chinese government subsidises, or pays entirely, for shipping costs of stuff we buy from Banggood, AliExpress et al.


I've often thought that must be the case because I have bought items from china delivered for a sum that would not have covered postage in the opposite direction.

On another but related vane, I bought a 50" Hisense TV a couple of years ago.
When I queried the vendor about the low price, he assured me the quality was as good or better than more expensive better known brands and that every Hisense TV in the UK is sold at a loss, only possible because of Chinese government subsidy.
Sales pitch or truth?


----------



## sploo

selectortone said:


> The Chinese government subsidises, or pays entirely, for shipping costs of stuff we buy from Banggood, AliExpress et al. Unless we wake up and start to support local manufacturing they will have no competition eventually. Then look out.


Interesting. If it is true then what's the motive? To establish dominance of Chinese companies?


----------



## selectortone

sploo said:


> Interesting. If it is true then what's the motive? To establish dominance of Chinese companies?


Bingo


----------



## Droogs

@Awac That is exactly what my avatar is. It is from an 18thC woodcut of a Wanderjahrmann. I had one teach me my woodworking on courses while serving in Germany and the picture came from him.


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> Interesting. If it is true then what's the motive? To establish dominance of Chinese companies?


On a bigger scale it's called "dumping". Subsidised imports destroy the local producers and steal the market. Generally banned Export subsidy - Wikipedia.


----------



## Rorschach

I wonder if something has changed in the last year or so though. I used to buy a fair bit of stuff through Aliexpress but in the last 12-14 months (a bit of guess on the timeline there) the prices have really gone up, especially shipping costs. I now buy through eBay again because the prices are nearly the same and you get better (well easier I should say, AE were always helpful, just slow) buyer protection.


----------



## Awac

Droogs said:


> @Awac That is exactly what my avatar is. It is from an 18thC woodcut of a Wanderjahrmann. I had one teach me my woodworking on courses while serving in Germany and the picture came from him.


Hi Droogs
I remember the first time I drove into a service station in Germany and seen one dressed in the travelling gear looking for a lift....no one had told me about this! We had an interesting chat over the next couple of hours.

What a great idea I thought. The knowledge you could pick up in a short span of time, and all the practices shared all over the country by them...those Germans, so efficient! (couldn't find a Bockwurst, so make do with a hot dog!).


----------



## ivan

Once there was one nation toryism. Then the 2 main parties more or less agreed on the goal, but differed in how best to attain it. It faded away after the 1970's. Legislation that helped make the country a kinder palce to live has always been unpopular with the right wing - remember Maastricht? - John Major had to be seen to "cut the treaty down to size" which still did not appease his "bxstxrds" as he called them. No prizes for seeing the future direction of deregulation - anything that lowers costs. In my working life (now retired) I recall having to deal with a problem caused by a too cold workplace; the guvnor confided "Well, they don't feel the cold like we do, do they?". I'm afraid that the great and good?? have no experience of normal life, and generally act as if they have little interest in it unless they are vote catching. In the absence of official explantion, I suspect the broad sunlit uplands will be stalked by those benefitting from the deregulation (unspecified) which they are so keen to see. The word "mirage" comes to mind.

No.1 son, a brickie who worked for one of the larger building firms, sold the terrace house he renovated in his spare time, and bought a 2Ha plot in Portugal for around £2000. He moved there with his wife and 2 children, lived in a bothy and built a villa with a pool, on the proceeds of the sale. You don't have to be rich, just posess the motivation. He now makes a living locally with his digger.

I spent a lot of time in Germany in the late 1950's, youth hostelling. Other youg people were asking me - when will you (UK) join the Union. It seems strange to me that those with whom I have kept contact over the years, seem to have done so much better than their UK counterparts. Perhaps the press (with it's own agenda) felt it had to rubbish the EU with fake news to hide this intersting fact.

The Euro hasn't crashed yet. Moreover, most annoyingly, we get fewer and fewer for our £. Goodies from the USA are no longer cheap. I was lucky enough to get mine at $2.40 to the £. In my fathers day, there were $4 to the £, so 5 bob (25p) was called a dollar, and that was just after the war when the country was almost brioke. Some £, eh?

The fishermen were not happy before we joined. there was then a govt. marine research station at Lowestoft (I think) who were predicting a crash in cod stocks in the 1950's from over fishing, and there were perpetual arguments over net mesh size regulations. In EU times many sold up their quota, so a large % of fishing rights are no longer ours to control what ever happens. If we had left deal-less, inport duties would be payable on entry of fish and shellfish into the EU making such trade unviable. UK punters eat manly imported fish, as the cost is more reasonable than home grown. It's all emotion, anyway, as fisheries are worth just 0,01% of GDP.

Apologies for the column inches, but this oldie is definitely sad at the outcome. If I'm wrong and we all bask in UK glory one day, I doubt that I will see it. I have much in common with those ladies of a certain age whose pension was deferred for a few years just as their retirement was supposed to be coming over the horizon.

Time to suppress gloom with some more woodwork.


----------



## selectortone

Jacob said:


> On a bigger scale it's called "dumping". Subsidised imports destroy the local producers and steal the market. Generally banned Export subsidy - Wikipedia.


What - the Chinese ignoring the rules?? Surely not.


----------



## Awac

ivan said:


> I'm afraid that the great and good?? have no experience of normal life, and generally act as if they have little interest in it unless they are vote catching.



As I was just going to bed last night I caught Ian Duncan-Smith saying that leaving the EU is a good thing for young people as they can now go out into the world and fulfil their destiny, and _*"dominate"*_ the world. 

They really do live in a different world. 

Perhaps India has just realised "Hey, you know that Raj thing really had something going for it" or maybe Joe Biden is thinking to himself "Gee, I feel bad about the whole independence thing" or Xi Jinping "Wow, you guys! You make things so much better than us, we will never be able to make anything without copying you". The Uk dominated 20% of the globe once, when it went and took things. I don't think they will allow that again...this is not a re-run, it's a new era.


----------



## Noel

It was all a dream, no sea border thank goodness:


----------



## Noel

Awac said:


> As I was just going to bed last night I caught Ian Duncan-Smith saying that leaving the EU is a good thing for young people as they can now go out into the world and fulfil their destiny, and _*"dominate"*_ the world.
> 
> They really do live in a different world.
> 
> Perhaps India has just realised "Hey, you know that Raj thing really had something going for it" or maybe Joe Biden is thinking to himself "Gee, I feel bad about the whole independence thing" or Xi Jinping "Wow, you guys! You make things so much better than us, we will never be able to make anything without copying you". The Uk dominated 20% of the globe once, when it went and took things. I don't think they will allow that again...this is not a re-run, it's a new era.




Saw that ref IDS. Thought this was a good summary:






John Cotter

@John_Cotter

This is what happens when people are educated to believe that empire traded rather than exploited. IDS seems to think British 21 year olds can get rich by walking around in a pith helmet, carrying a copy of Bradshaw’s railway journeys under their arms, and pointing at stuff.


----------



## Awac

Noel said:


> Saw that ref IDS. Thought this was a good summary:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Cotter
> @John_Cotter
> 
> This is what happens when people are educated to believe that empire traded rather than exploited. IDS seems to think British 21 year olds can get rich by walking around in a pith helmet, carrying a copy of Bradshaw’s railway journeys under their arms, and pointing at stuff.



I thought IDS (_Irritable Diplomat Syndrome?_) was truly shocking, and what kind of message is that sending out to the world? John Cotter has it bang on, I hadn't seen that, thanks for bringing that up.


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> Saw that ref IDS. Thought this was a good summary:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Cotter
> 
> @John_Cotter
> 
> This is what happens when people are educated to believe that empire traded rather than exploited. IDS seems to think British 21 year olds can get rich by walking around in a pith helmet, carrying a copy of Bradshaw’s railway journeys under their arms, and pointing at stuff.


That's doubly amusing considering (as I understand) IDS is wealthy because he married money. I.e. his isn't rich as a result of his own efforts.


----------



## RobinBHM

Jacob said:


> On a bigger scale it's called "dumping". Subsidised imports destroy the local producers and steal the market. Generally banned Export subsidy - Wikipedia.


Like Chinese steel dumping.

EU tried to put a stop to it
UK voted against
British steel went bust.


----------



## Jacob

Handy summary here for travellers, now that we are free: Brexit: How travel to the EU has changed


----------



## jcassidy

Jacob said:


> Handy summary here for travellers, now that we are free: Brexit: How travel to the EU has changed



Youtube: You're free (to do what you want to do)!
YouTube: You picked a fine time to leave me, UK!


----------



## Trainee neophyte

EU agricultural dumping: Stop the Dumping! How EU agricultural subsidies are damaging livelihoods in the developing world - Oxfam Policy & Practice

Mind you, Oxfam is more of an MI6 policy implementation system than charity, so it's probably just politics rather than serious objection to EU practices. If you are lucky the EU will dump lots of cheap excess production into the UK, and you will get lower prices in Tescos. It won't help UK farmers, but there aren't enough of them to be a voting block, so who cares? Eat the rich!


----------



## julianf

sploo said:


> That's doubly amusing considering (as I understand) IDS is wealthy because he married money. I.e. his isn't rich as a result of his own efforts.



It always strikes me as ironic that the people who promote "the standing on one's own two feet" are generally those who have benefitted hugely from family wealth.


----------



## niemeyjt

selectortone said:


> The Chinese government subsidises, or pays entirely, for shipping costs of stuff we buy from Banggood, AliExpress et al. Unless we wake up and start to support local manufacturing they will have no competition eventually. Then look out.


Actually the Royal Mail does. China is deemed a developing nation and thus allowed cheap rates as part of the Universal Postal Union. It passes next to nothing on to Royal Mail who still have all the costs of sorting, transporting and delivering the items.


----------



## doctor Bob

I think the one think to come out of brexit is that these days, argueing for 4 years on an internet forum brings out the worst in people (me included) achieves nothing, no one changed their mind, and the debate is never ending, it's never over whilst people want one upmanship. On a forum people don't want to give up, be proved wrong, listen to other views, read diverse arguements written by unlike minds.
Yet on more rational topics most are quite open.
I have read and follwed this thread with interest, as I do on a bigger forum where the influence is more pro brexit. It follows exactly the same path but reverse as more posts are pro, where as here most are against.
It's just a numbers game as to who dominates the forum, it therefore encourages more posts as the winning feeling is there ....................... Just my opinion.


----------



## jackal

Rorschach said:


> For some I am sure it is sad, but how many people does that actually represent vs the people who struggle because the borders are open to those who want to come here?
> 
> Judging by a lot of the comments here it seems to boil back down to a point that has been raised before, the haves vs the have nots. The people who wanted to remain appear to me to be people with money and comfort. Second homes in France, renovation projects, retired like to travel.
> I don't have a problem with that, I don't begrudge anyone for enjoying the benefits of their capital whether hard earned or not. But people who think like that seem to forget that the vast majority of the country is not in that position.
> I am sure it would be lovely to have a second home in the south of Spain, I love Spain and spending my winters there would be much nicer than spending them here, but that isn't a realistic prospect for me or anyone I know.


I live in France and moved here because I was not wealthy like many of my friends. I here this argument so many times but we are not all Stanley Johnson!


----------



## Mark Karacsonyi

I don’t know what the long term affects of trade and retail will bring about yet to date. I placed an Axminster order on the 23rd of December. As of yesterday I received a DHL email, asking me if the order was for personal or professional use.

also I get 3 free days of storage at their depot, after that I need to pay. It’s 16000 Hungarian Forint per day. Not done the math it’s the cost of 3-4 beers.

Any surcharges would be paid by Axminster. The rest was purely information only. So I really need to be in for the delivery.


----------



## sploo

julianf said:


> It always strikes me as ironic that the people who promote "the standing on one's own two feet" are generally those who have benefitted hugely from family wealth.


I used to think the idea that there were sections of society that considered the poor to be poor because they couldn't be bothered to be rich was a lazy stereotype - until I encountered such thinkers.

The "Dilbert Zone" cartoonist Scott Adams once noted that the best ways to get rich are to inherit it, or embezzle it; but it's even better to inherit it from someone who embezzled it.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> I think the one think to come out of brexit is that these days, argueing for 4 years on an internet forum brings out the worst in people (me included) achieves nothing, no one changed their mind, and the debate is never ending, it's never over whilst people want one upmanship. On a forum people don't want to give up, be proved wrong, listen to other views, read diverse arguements written by unlike minds.
> Yet on more rational topics most are quite open.
> I have read and follwed this thread with interest, as I do on a bigger forum where the influence is more pro brexit. It follows exactly the same path but reverse as more posts are pro, where as here most are against.
> It's just a numbers game as to who dominates the forum, it therefore encourages more posts as the winning feeling is there ....................... Just my opinion.


The sad thing is; no one has won. Mostly we all lose.

There will always be those who will tell you there's something (or someone) to hate - and if you'll just give me your vote I'll eradicate the problem and bring utopia.

Inevitably the believers will be angry because they'll hate the bogeyman they've been sold, and ultimately be dissatisfied at the failure of the populists to deliver the promised dreamland.

The non-believers will be angry because they're being lied to.

The believers will hate the non-believers, and the populists will paint the non-believers as part of the problem (further fueling the hate).

The non-believers will hate the believers for being fooled, and the populists for doing the fooling.

One day humanity may learn - but we've repeated this pattern for hundreds of years so I'm afraid I'm not exactly hopeful.


----------



## julianf

Some people buy a new car (or whatever) that turns out to be a dog...

Some of those people will say that it was a bad choice and that they should have bought a different car.

But some, no matter how bad the car is, will still sing it's praises, because (I assume) they chose it, and to say it's no good would would seem an insult to them.

This is, in my experience, common with product choices - that some people will have always made the "right" decision no matter what the outcome, whilst some will use the outcome to judge if they made the right choice or not.

We will see this with Brexit, with no doubt at all.


----------



## Awac

julianf said:


> Some people buy a new car (or whatever) that turns out to be a dog...
> 
> Some of those people will say that it was a bad choice and that they should have bought a different car.
> 
> But some, no matter how bad the car is, will still sing it's praises, because (I assume) they chose it, and to say it's no good would would seem an insult to them.
> 
> This is, in my experience, common with product choices - that some people will have always made the "right" decision no matter what the outcome, whilst some will use the outcome to judge if they made the right choice or not.
> 
> We will see this with Brexit, with no doubt at all.



Too true Julian. Not only cars, you should have seen my first attempts carving a spoon.......I was determined to use it....!


----------



## Misterdog

doctor Bob said:


> I think the one think to come out of brexit is that these days, argueing for 4 years on an internet forum brings out the worst in people (me included) achieves nothing, no one changed their mind, and the debate is never ending, it's never over whilst people want one upmanship. On a forum people don't want to give up, be proved wrong, listen to other views, read diverse arguements written by unlike minds.
> Yet on more rational topics most are quite open.
> I have read and follwed this thread with interest, as I do on a bigger forum where the influence is more pro brexit. It follows exactly the same path but reverse as more posts are pro, where as here most are against.
> It's just a numbers game as to who dominates the forum, it therefore encourages more posts as the winning feeling is there ....................... Just my opinion.




Basically there is a 50/50 split in the population and in politicians as to leave/remain.
Some people including myself were/are split 50/50 as is/was Jeremy Corbyn.
He could not implement his re-nationalisation projects without falling foul of EU anti government subsidy legislation.

It's been a wonderful fun filled journey, I can't wait until we have another referendum with a view to re-joining the EU. So we can have all this joy again.

The cost to our economy over the past four years has been breath-taking.

Imagine if people were able to see both sides of a debate and accept some compromise.


----------



## Jacob

julianf said:


> Some people buy a new car (or whatever) that turns out to be a dog...
> 
> Some of those people will say that it was a bad choice and that they should have bought a different car.
> 
> But some, no matter how bad the car is, will still sing it's praises, because (I assume) they chose it, and to say it's no good would would seem an insult to them.
> 
> This is, in my experience, common with product choices - that some people will have always made the "right" decision no matter what the outcome, whilst some will use the outcome to judge if they made the right choice or not.
> 
> We will see this with Brexit, with no doubt at all.


It's called "confirmation bias" but it doesn't alter the truth of whether or not a decision was a good one.
If/when things don't turn out as forecast there'll also be a massive blame game. Farage/Johnson will blame everybody starting with the EU itself; the complexity of new deals will be seen as self justifying proof of unnecessary EU bureaucracy.
Then blaming all those who fail to take advantage of the possibilities of this brexit 'brave new world'.
Then blame Covid, anybody, aliens from out of space etc
Then ultimately claim that they did their best but blame the electorate for having pressed for the unobtainable. The buck will stop with those who voted for it!


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> It's called "confirmation bias" but it doesn't alter the truth of whether or not a decision was a good one.
> If/when things don't turn out as forecast there'll also be a massive blame game. Farage/Johnson will blame everybody starting with the EU itself; the complexity of new deals will be seen as self justifying proof of unnecessary EU bureaucracy.
> Then blaming all those who fail to take advantage of the possibilities of this brexit 'brave new world'.
> Then blame Covid, anybody, aliens from out of space etc
> Then ultimately claim that they did their best but blame the electorate for having pressed for the unobtainable. The buck will stop with those who voted for it!


Surely you have just done the same thing "confirmation bias". You could have said, if / when it all goes right the remainers will have a massive blame game ...........................
Just saying, no one gives ground as stated previously


----------



## julianf

doctor Bob said:


> Surely you have just done the same thing "confirmation bias". You could have said, if / when it all goes right the remainers will have a massive blame game ...........................
> Just saying, no one gives ground as stated previously



As i think i said before, aside from all of that, no one can deny the benefit of the NHS getting £350m a week extra, from yesterday.
I mean, what with covid and that, it couldn't have come at a better time.


I mean there are mistakes, and then there is downright lack of integrity. I think its good to remember that?


----------



## doctor Bob

julianf said:


> As i think i said before, aside from all of that, no one can deny the benefit of the NHS getting £350m a week extra, from yesterday.
> I mean, what with covid and that, it couldn't have come at a better time.
> 
> 
> I mean there are mistakes, and then there is downright lack of integrity. I think its good to remember that?



See............ I'm not even trying to argue any point. I am merely adressing internet arguements and the bias on both sides. But it's impossible. People need to realise that the internet forums are re-enforcements of arguement / debate by others with similar views, usually dominated by the majority of like minded posters.


----------



## billw

And we're paying the settlement bill to the EU until 2064.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> Surely you have just done the same thing "confirmation bias". You could have said, if / when it all goes right the remainers will have a massive blame game ...........................
> Just saying, no one gives ground as stated previously


I did say "if" but I do think it'll be "when". 
On the other hand the lefties think that it could be good - if they ever get into power they won't be tied to the EU and will be able to renationalise everything including the ground under your feet! Sounds good to me!


----------



## billw

doctor Bob said:


> See............ I'm not even trying to argue any point. I am merely adressing internet arguements and the bias on both sides. But it's impossible. People need to realise that the internet forums are re-enforcements of arguement / debate by others with similar views, usually dominated by the majority of like minded posters.



Yes, this has become quite a concerning issue in recent times. Echo chambers and polarisation are becoming problematic because people don't even need to accept there's another point of view to theirs any more, they just block it or disconnect from those who disagree. 

It's even _within_ groups these days, one of my football supporting friends was banned from posting in a facebook group last night because the admin objected to his view about a player's performance. Totally bonkers.

I don't even want to think where it could all lead.


----------



## julianf

doctor Bob said:


> See............ I'm not even trying to argue any point. I am merely adressing internet arguements and the bias on both sides. But it's impossible. People need to realise that the internet forums are re-enforcements of arguement / debate by others with similar views, usually dominated by the majority of like minded posters.




I, personally, think the acceptance and glossing over (which is kind of what you are doing now, implying a downright and indisputable lie as "confirmation bias") is a serious problem.

Again, there are many grey areas to the brexit thing which will be examples of confirmation bias (remember, it was my own post a few further up which bought up the topic). 

But, painting something on the side of a bus which just isnt true in order to manipulate the public isn't "Oooh, he mis-spoke", or "confirmation bias", or whatever.

Its a factual lie. And that shouldn't be acceptable, nor should it be glossed over in any way whatsoever.


----------



## Rorschach

jackal said:


> I live in France and moved here because I was not wealthy like many of my friends. I here this argument so many times but we are not all Stanley Johnson!



You are not really what I referring to. You live there, I was talking about people with second homes etc.


----------



## Awac

Rorschach said:


> You are not really what I referring to. You live there, I was talking about people with second homes etc.


And people who can afford second homes are probably the least effected by leaving the EU.


----------



## billw

julianf said:


> But, painting something on the side of a bus which just isnt true in order to manipulate the public isn't "Oooh, he mis-spoke", or "confirmation bias", or whatever.
> 
> Its a factual lie. And that shouldn't be acceptable, nor should it be glossed over in any way whatsoever.



It's not confirmation bias itself though, it's used by people AS confirmation bias. Officials said it was a "misuse of official statistics"  rather than a lie.

However don't all politicians just say whatever people want to hear when there's a vote on something? And we're surprised that the Brexiteers said stuff that made Brexit sound good? Did they care it was misleading? I doubt it.


----------



## Rorschach

Awac said:


> And people who can afford second homes are probably the least effected by leaving the EU.



I dunno, they made a big fuss about it. The easiest way to predict whether someone is Leave or Remain is by how much money they have.


----------



## doctor Bob

Rorschach said:


> I dunno, they made a big fuss about it. The easiest way to predict whether someone is Leave or Remain is by how much money they have.



I think it easier to predict on personality.............


----------



## billw

Rorschach said:


> I dunno, they made a big fuss about it. The easiest way to predict whether someone is Leave or Remain is by how much money they have.



Well Cornwall is a relatively poor county, voted to leave and they've totally stiffed themselves. The government has got control of EU funds and whilst Cornwall asked for £700m over ten years to replace those EU funds, the government probably won't be writing them a large cheque any time soon.

_"Here in Cornwall, the people who voted for Brexit and voted for the Conservatives did so because they believed or were told it was about taking back control and a commitment by our government to continue to support Cornwall. " (BBC News)_

"Believed or were told". Oops.


----------



## doctor Bob

billw said:


> _.......................(BBC News)_



When does the BBC broadcast this, recently I have only seen party political broadcast at 6pm and 10pm everyday from them.


----------



## billw

doctor Bob said:


> When does the BBC broadcast this, recently I have only seen party political broadcast at 6pm and 10pm everyday from them.



Brexit: Cornwall to face 'significant' funding cut - BBC News

Was a quote on the BBC rather than by the BBC.


----------



## sploo

julianf said:


> I, personally, think the acceptance and glossing over (which is kind of what you are doing now, implying a downright and indisputable lie as "confirmation bias") is a serious problem.
> 
> Again, there are many grey areas to the brexit thing which will be examples of confirmation bias (remember, it was my own post a few further up which bought up the topic).
> 
> But, painting something on the side of a bus which just isnt true in order to manipulate the public isn't "Oooh, he mis-spoke", or "confirmation bias", or whatever.
> 
> Its a factual lie. And that shouldn't be acceptable, nor should it be glossed over in any way whatsoever.


That's where the line lies for me. It's absolutely fine to argue about one political or economic "way" vs another. It's unlikely either side will ever be completely right or completely wrong (and pretty much every model from anarchy to fascism, communism to hyper-capitalism can be advocated for with some valid positives).

The issue is when there's outright deception; the NHS claim on the bus being just one (well worn) issue, but demonstrably false from day one.

The problem with "just moving on" is that it doesn't tackle the problem. Imagine if murderers started asking people to just move on and let the issue go


----------



## Rorschach

doctor Bob said:


> I think it easier to predict on personality.............



I dunno, I have leave and remain friends, they are all a-holes!


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> I dunno, they made a big fuss about it. The easiest way to predict whether someone is Leave or Remain is by how much money they have.


Not sure that claim is really supported by the available data on voting demographics.

Certainly it's always easier to get those at the bottom of society to vote for something "different"; the status quo is bad, so change must be good, right? But the idea of poor = Leave, rich = Remain is not widely accurate.


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> Not sure that claim is really supported by the available data on voting demographics.
> 
> Certainly it's always easier to get those at the bottom of society to vote for something "different"; the status quo is bad, so change must be good, right? But the idea of poor = Leave, rich = Remain is not widely accurate.











Brexit votes by social class 2016 | Statista


This statistic shows the result of a survey asking respondents how they voted in the Brexit referendum of 2016, by social class.




www.statista.com


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> Brexit votes by social class 2016 | Statista
> 
> 
> This statistic shows the result of a survey asking respondents how they voted in the Brexit referendum of 2016, by social class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com


"Upper Middle-Class" does not define the most wealthy in society, and the AB/C1/C2/DE classifications, whilst certainly correlating somewhat with earnings, is not specifically defined by personal income or wealth.


----------



## Spectric

Hi all

It is all irrelevant now, we are no longer Europeans and have left so must look forward to what ever comes our way, lets hope our government makes sharper decisions regarding the economy than it has dealing with the virus. So far things from the EU have looked smoother than expected but turn 180° and maybe it is also problematic with goods from the other side of the pond, take a look at Woodworkers workshop and some areas look a little bare. No router table tops just wheels and a couple of frames, no Jessem prestige lifts. Maybe they have all had a great big bubble party and misread their stock or getting ready for the new year sales!


----------



## Lefley

stuartpaul said:


> Carry your bag sir?


Come back to Canada! I live in bc. Right in the mountains.


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> "Upper Middle-Class" does not define the most wealthy in society, and the AB/C1/C2/DE classifications, whilst certainly correlating somewhat with earnings, is not specifically defined by personal income or wealth.



No I realise that, but it's probably the best we are going to be able to do and likely a fairly accurate assessment. They didn't ask my income when I voted, lol.


----------



## Awac

Lefley said:


> Come back to Canada! I live in bc. Right in the mountains.



And you have plenty of wood......what is not to like!


----------



## Peter Sefton

Spectric said:


> Hi all
> 
> It is all irrelevant now, we are no longer Europeans and have left so must look forward to what ever comes our way, lets hope our government makes sharper decisions regarding the economy than it has dealing with the virus. So far things from the EU have looked smoother than expected but turn 180° and maybe it is also problematic with goods from the other side of the pond, take a look at Woodworkers workshop and some areas look a little bare. No router table tops just wheels and a couple of frames, no Jessem prestige lifts. Maybe they have all had a great big bubble party and misread their stock or getting ready for the new year sales!



We have quite a few pre drilled JessEm Prestige lifts in stock and JessEm Table tops, we have updated the website to make a few Brexit changes. The stock levels should be correct, please let me know if the above products are showing as out of stock.

Cheers Peter


----------



## Spectric

Great work, looks like its back but what are the changes due to brexit?


----------



## johnny

clogs said:


> nobody has asked about vac cleaners.....
> can we get the high powered one back.....????? LOL...
> ..



ha ha good question The Henry vacuum I bought recently for her indoors has been thrown back at me in disgust and now lanquishes in my shed. She continues to use Charlie who is deafening but has the suction of a baby elephant sucking water from a river.
I've since bought a non working used Henry and transplanted the higher powered motor into the new Henry.


----------



## Rorschach

johnny said:


> ha ha good question The Henry vacuum I bought recently for her indoors has been thrown back at me in disgust and now lanquishes in my shed. She continues to use Charlie who is deafening but has the suction of a baby elephant sucking water from a river.
> I've since bought a non working used Henry and transplanted the higher powered motor into the new Henry.



I am pretty sure you can still buy the higher power motors brand new as spare parts.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> No I realise that, but it's probably the best we are going to be able to do and likely a fairly accurate assessment. They didn't ask my income when I voted, lol.


Some years ago I recall reading an article that claimed the most accurate correlation of belief/demographic for voting leave (a better fit than social status, gender, income, or race) was actually support for the death penalty. I'm not sure if that's actually true, but from memory I think the article was accompanied with some data (so it wasn't just a joke/made up piece).

Correlation and causation are, of course, two different things.


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> Some years ago I recall reading an article that claimed the most accurate correlation of belief/demographic for voting leave (a better fit than social status, gender, income, or race) was actually support for the death penalty. I'm not sure if that's actually true, but from memory I think the article was accompanied with some data (so it wasn't just a joke/made up piece).
> 
> Correlation and causation are, of course, two different things.



Hmm, that's interesting. Maybe we could do a little poll of that here?


----------



## Steliz

Mark Karacsonyi said:


> also I get 3 free days of storage at their depot, after that I need to pay. It’s 16000 Hungarian Forint per day. Not done the math it’s the cost of 3-4 beers.



16000ft is about £40 and even drinking in the cocktail bars in Budapest city centre will give you a little bit of change from that for 4 drinks! Maybe you've over-zeroed, it's easy to do.


----------



## Awac

Spectric said:


> Hi all
> 
> It is all irrelevant now, we are no longer Europeans and have left so must look forward to what ever comes our way, lets hope our government makes sharper decisions regarding the economy than it has dealing with the virus.



I understand what you are saying Spectric. It is the_* direction and rhetoric*_ that the government is displaying that I find distasteful. 

_“I just wish I was 21 again, frankly,”_ IDS said. _“Because my goodness what prospects lie ahead of us for young people now. To be out there buccaneering, trading, dominating the world again…_” 

_"In the distance and through the darkness we can see the brightly illuminated pub sign of our destination"_-Boris Johnstone (New year message). (Jeez- is this what he thinks the populace are wanting from a government, a low opinion and a private Boris joke in my view).

Whether you think Adam Smith or Karl Marx are right, is this really the message the UK should send out? The UK is not a big player as it was (lost, sub contracted or sold, and _they*_ are not going to make the same mistake!), it needs to specialise and invest in education because the only place it can have a chance is with quality+brand. If you want to sell quality, people have to _buy into_ your brand. What happens when you p*ss them all off with cocky bravado? I would not buy from any brand with someone like IDS. Name one business that you would buy off if it was telling everyone they were _dominating_ you?
There are a lot of crafts/small business that could do well alongside technology, but they can not compete on price (unless you think now that EU workers rights have gone we could become competitive in the sweat economy? Na, that couldn't happen...er), they need people who like them and what they do. This is what effects us as amateurs and professionals, if you want a tool or sell them, and why it is important to talk it through.

In a democracy you can vote again to rejoin Europe in the future, so I will wait for that day. Scotland did not vote to leave Europe, nothing to fear from having another democratic vote? 
If brexit all goes great and everyone is friends I will happily say I was wrong, and be glad of that fact, but I can not stand by while jingoistic claptrap erupts-sorry.
_
* Rest of the world_


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> Hmm, that's interesting. Maybe we could do a little poll of that here?


Just don't ask Priti Patel


----------



## Awac

sploo said:


> Some years ago I recall reading an article that claimed the most accurate correlation of belief/demographic for voting leave (a better fit than social status, gender, income, or race) was actually support for the death penalty. I'm not sure if that's actually true, but from memory I think the article was accompanied with some data (so it wasn't just a joke/made up piece).
> 
> Correlation and causation are, of course, two different things.



Sploo. You really pick a difficult subject! I have a new book to read just arrived today_ saws and saw makers from 1660_....and you are keeping me from it!

Depends which politician the death penalty was for...


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> That's where the line lies for me. It's absolutely fine to argue about one political or economic "way" vs another. It's unlikely either side will ever be completely right or completely wrong (and pretty much every model from anarchy to fascism, communism to hyper-capitalism can be advocated for with some valid positives).
> 
> The issue is when there's outright deception; the NHS claim on the bus being just one (well worn) issue, but demonstrably false from day one.
> 
> The problem with "just moving on" is that it doesn't tackle the problem. Imagine if murderers started asking people to just move on and let the issue go



the "its done we need to move on".....

is a narrative put forward by people who were able to make any brexit agument they wanted, whilst they enjoyed the benefits of the Single Market, but they dont want the reality analysed, oh no, thats not fair, we mustnt do that.


Here is the reality: it is only DAY 2 of brexit.


----------



## sploo

Awac said:


> Sploo. You really pick a difficult subject! I have a new book to read just arrived today_ saws and saw makers from 1660_....and you are keeping me from it!
> 
> Depends which politician the death penalty was for...


LOL I wasn't intimating that, but it's funny to consider nonetheless  

My Patel comment was in reference to the hilarious/excruciating exchange between Ian Hislop and herself on the subject - mostly where she seemed to struggle with the concept that executed people are dead, and therefore when miscarriages of justice happen it's rather difficult to correct. She's not the sharpest tool in the box.


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> the "its done we need to move on".....
> 
> is a narrative put forward by people who were able to make any brexit agument they wanted, whilst they enjoyed the benefits of the Single Market, but they dont want the reality analysed, oh no, thats not fair, we mustnt do that.
> 
> 
> Here is the reality: it is only DAY 2 of brexit.


Well, I mean, we have gone from "_it'll be easy/great_" to "_oh come on, stop exaggerating; the issues won't be that bad/50 years to recover_" to "_can we just move on and stop talking about it_".

Sounds like a resounding success to me.


----------



## RobinBHM

Awac said:


> jingoistic claptrap erupts



Certain MPs have been out in force on twitter.

one of them said: 

"last month whilst we were in the Single Market, huge delays at Dover, today its been quite and calm at Dover"


----------



## Spectric

Everything goes in circles, empires rise and empires fall and the UK is in a decline phase, not entirely it's own fault. Once upon a time the proportion of suppliers to buyers was massive, there was a huge market into which to sell your goods but now that market has also become suppliers and we have become expensive labour. As the Asian markets grow, they will force us into becoming cheap labour and they will eventually become expensive labour themselves and the circle continues so long as the impact of global warming allows. I do remember when "made in England" actually meant something but as we have progressed through " assembled in England" to "rebranded in England" then our credability has been lost. We could not even come up with a working track and trace system here in the Uk, not complicated but beyond our ability yet many asian countries had a system working very quickly. This was not entirely due to technical competance but probably equally to the madness of modern data protection, which is worthless if you are dead due to the virus.


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> Well, I mean, we have gone from "_it'll be easy/great_" to "_oh come on, stop exaggerating; the issues won't be that bad/50 years to recover_" to "_can we just move on and stop talking about it_".
> 
> Sounds like a resounding success to me.


the problem for me with the argument "we must move on" -is that it is impossible to do all the time the lies and misinformation continue, which it will all the time populism is the political strategy.


----------



## julianf

Awac said:


> Adam Smith or Karl Marx



I very much doubt that the majority of leave voters (or remain voters to be fair) would have any idea who Adam Smith is at all. And most would only know Marx as that Corbyn chap was into him....




Awac said:


> There are a lot of crafts/small business that could do well alongside technology, but they can not compete on price



I make specialist stuff. 98% ish goes for export. (as in about 1 in 50 sales are to uk customers)
The exported goods are split about 50:50 between the EU and the rest of the world.

My customers are mostly not VAT registered. As most of my final price is labour, i am deliberately and legitimately also not vat registered. 


So, 49% ish of my sales are exported to the EU, and now those EU customers are suddenly, if i fill out the paperwork correctly, going to be looking at a price thats 20% higher than it was last week.

But its not really going to be 20% higher at all, as then there will be processing, and VAT on the processing. So, assuming the processing charges are similar to those we suffer, my price in the EU will actually be 50% higher than it was last week.

What is that going to do for my competitiveness, i wonder?

But, I'm told, there will be advantages to leaving the EU. Just no one has been able to tangibly tell me what just yet. Something about less illegal immigrants and more money for the NHS.

My old man voted leave. He is only alive as some chap with brown skin and a funny accent chopped half his pancreas out. So that one was ok, but, still, we cant support all this immigration, right...

He was shocked when he called up on new years day and my partner explained to him that i was a little bothered about the whole situation.

"But there's no duty" he said, with ignorance of the actual impact to small business exporters.


Most small business start small (the clue is in the name, really). If they have anything to do with exporting their goods to the EU, the whole VAT thing is going to be a real hinderance from the start.

The easiest way to stop small businesses from becoming those big "world beating" businesses is kill them off when they are small.



But, honestly, when have the Tories ever really cared about anyone other than those at the fatter end of the stick?



"But we can get rid of VAT now we are not dictated to by the EU"

The Tories hate VAT, obviously, what with it being a regressive tax - they demonstrated their hate of it by raising it from 15-20% since taking power.


Going back to - 



Awac said:


> Adam Smith or Karl Marx



This is the problem. I mean who amongst us wholly understands Quantitative easing, and its effect on the asset market? I mean i have an interest in this stuff, and couldn't pretend to give more than a very patchy summary.


So, going back to my previous post, not only is downright indisputable lying to the populous now acceptable, but also most people just dont understand the actual mechanics of any of these things. My old man isnt a total silly person, but the whole VAT thing just had not even registered with him. And he knows his son exports to the EU.


----------



## RobinBHM

Spectric said:


> Everything goes in circles, empires rise and empires fall and the UK is in a decline phase, not entirely it's own fault


Its a good point

forecasts for share of global GDP in 2035 put UK down in 10th place

we will be overtaken by India (again), Mexico, Vietnam, Brazil.


----------



## Jacob

for IBS and Johnson it's a spectator sport - "come on chaps you can do it" sort of thing. 
If it turns out badly they'll both jeering from the sidelines as though it's not their fault.


----------



## Spectric

Whats Iritable Bowel Syndrome got to do with us leaving the EU.


----------



## Jacob

Spectric said:


> Whats Iritable Bowel Syndrome got to do with us leaving the EU.


oops yes I meant Irritable Duncan Syndrome!


----------



## RobinBHM

julianf said:


> The easiest way to stop small businesses from becoming those big "world beating" businesses is kill them off when they are small



Small businesses will be hit the hardest.

Govt advice is to use the services of a customs agent.....that's a real hit to the bottom line.

Big business like Tescos will already have an importing department and almost certainly have IT systems set up, so it will have very little impact on their coatings due to scales of economy.


----------



## RobinBHM

Spectric said:


> Whats Iritable Bowel Syndrome got to do with us leaving the EU.


He gives me an irritable bowel whenever he appears on TV.


----------



## doctor Bob

billw said:


> Yes, this has become quite a concerning issue in recent times. Echo chambers and polarisation are becoming problematic because people don't even need to accept there's another point of view to theirs any more, they just block it or disconnect from those who disagree.



It's interesting isn't it. 2-3 pages since your post and I would call it all confirmation posting, nothing new apart from backing up opinion.
As I said, I see exactly the same on another forum but from the brexit side.
Neither achieves diddly squat.
Not that I'm against it, I guess I'm just wondering in a semi rational way, why we feel the need to do it. I guess it comes down to the fundimental need to think or feel you are right and not alone in your view.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> It's interesting isn't it. 2-3 pages since your post and I would call it all confirmation posting, nothing new apart from backing up opinion.
> As I said, I see exactly the same on another forum but from the brexit side.
> Neither achieves diddly squat.
> Not that I'm against it, I guess I'm just wondering in a semi rational way, why we feel the need to do it. I guess it comes down to the fundimental need to think or feel you are right and not alone in your view.


I think it achieves quite a lot. It's a fairly normal discussion, which go on all over the place and in the media. Good democratic thing that people are joining in to back up their opinions and being presented with others with added facts and references.
Yes it can reach the very repetitive point where nothing new is said but that's how they go, until something else changes.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> I think it achieves quite a lot.



I'm not surprised as it supports your view more. I like my other forum as it supports my view more. But accept I have really not changed my opinion one bit.
It's tribalism, exactly like football for politically minded.


Although to be honest Jacob, your home team is not remain but Jeremy Corbyn   but even when relegation happens the love continues.


----------



## Awac

julianf said:


> I very much doubt that the majority of leave voters (or remain voters to be fair) would have any idea who Adam Smith is at all. And most would only know Marx as that Corbyn chap was into him....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I make specialist stuff. 98% ish goes for export. (as in about 1 in 50 sales are to uk customers)
> The exported goods are split about 50:50 between the EU and the rest of the world.
> But its not really going to be 20% higher at all, as then there will be processing, and VAT on the processing. So, assuming the processing charges are similar to those we suffer, my price in the EU will actually be 50% higher than it was last week.



Julian, I feel for you brother.
Perhaps start a new thread on this forum for anyone who produces and sells? Maybe this forum could help small producers hit by this. Would the moderator allow help/online shop/links/organised bulk purchase for _*small business*_ hit by brexit? Ask them? I would buy from you if I could and you had what I required. In a way I am helping brexit by supporting business, but your livelihood means more if I, and others can help. As far as I am concerned everyone on this forum has a connection through our interest, and I would help you even if you thought Pritti was hot....oh the very thought...and for that matter Gove....

Ask other small businesses to note for example: 


Extra costs in % they are having to pay or for that matter savings?!!
Paperwork difficulties or benefits. 
Loss of business or new market gains.
Legal angles that might help or hinder.
Government grants, bank loans etc (oh, stop it, must not get facetious!).
Etc.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> It's interesting isn't it. 2-3 pages since your post and I would call it all confirmation posting, nothing new apart from backing up opinion.
> As I said, I see exactly the same on another forum but from the brexit side.
> Neither achieves diddly squat.
> Not that I'm against it, I guess I'm just wondering in a semi rational way, why we feel the need to do it. I guess it comes down to the fundimental need to think or feel you are right and not alone in your view.


Genuine question; what's the general feeling on that brexit-leaning forum? One of job done, disappointment that it could have been better, or something else?


----------



## ivan

In or out, we can see and hear that we are ruled by folk who live in another world, with their distorted emotionally driven view more strongly held than ours, I fear. That simple Simon er..Duncan Smith, says he is deeply religious-how the hell can that sit with his view of trading domination? It's all humbug at the top!

All the UK's riches when we had them, came from Empire via private armies and the odd gunboat, by plunder of raw material, processed by the industrial revolution, and sold back to the Empire, with the odd cargo of slaves to fill an empty hold. Later benefit of early industrialisation gave us an easy sell of heavy engineering till the end of the Edwardian age, since when we have been happily declining. We need another industrial revolution to be that rich again. It will have to be high tec because of labour costs, and we don't seem to be very good at keeping good ideas for oursleves. Further, we have cut back on education and training to the point that finding a skilled workforce is not easy. Korea put human resource development into top gear about 20 years ago, realising that low skilled jobs would be moving to low wage economies. Hi tec revolutions demand huge long term investment, not the UK's favouite short term gain. It's likely that only the most powerful blocs, China, USA, EU, will have the cash to succed in that regard.

Needing some new diamond sharpening plates, had a look on Ali Express for a couple at 600 grit. £2.60 each, £5.20 total, free post. Checkout, now charging VAT at 20% !! Ahhrgh!! ( abolition of _Low Value_ Consignment Relief )


----------



## doctor Bob

Replying to Sploo

Job done.
Optimism
Lots of slagging off remainers flow charts for importing.
Remainers are still bitter
Much as you would expect etc etc

As I said, it's pure tribalism, you and others support one team, totally loyal, won't allow another team to critisicise your team, but you can question your own teams choices.
You can try and tell me that's not how it is, but it's true, you know it is.
In the past it has spilled over into other threads, just to slag off / pick an arguement with the opposition.

Same happened in the covid thread, totally polarised, one way or the other no inbetween.
In real life that doesn't happen, it's just the internet, hence it shouldn't be taken to seriously.

Also, honestly most have been so knocked back by covid and it's consequences that Brexit is now nothing but a pimple. Also 90% of public don't care, non political, more important things in life.

I'll also add, why is this thread allowed but others have been removed. Maybe a question for Noel (is he still a mod), I think he ran the other threads.
P.S. I don't want the thread removed, I'd like to know why the others were removed if this one is OK.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> .......
> 
> I'll also add, why is this thread allowed but others have been removed. Maybe a question for Noel (is he still a mod), I think he ran the other threads.
> P.S. I don't want the thread removed, I'd like to know why the others were removed if this one is OK.


This one's OK cos it's all quite civilised - so far!
People seemed to be real upset by all the political stuff, which is interesting in itself. It's as though they were really surprised and shocked to hear opinions different from their own. Personally I'm quite used to it!


----------



## Rorschach

doctor Bob said:


> I'll also add, why is this thread allowed but others have been removed. Maybe a question for Noel (is he still a mod), I think he ran the other threads.
> P.S. I don't want the thread removed, I'd like to know why the others were removed if this one is OK.



Probably because certain members didn't get involved (I think they have left).


----------



## jcassidy

Jacob said:


> This one's OK cos it's all quite civilised - so far!



Yes, eventually I noticed that all my lengthy rants, full of threats to signing people up to lifetime subscriptions to Fine Woodworking and Readers Digest, were just disappearing. It took me a while to notice because I don't actually listen to myself. I'd hate to realise how stupid my arguments are. I should probably have been a Tory.


----------



## Droogs

just seen this - food for thought


----------



## Awac

ivan said:


> In or out, we can see and hear that we are ruled by folk who live in another world, with their distorted emotionally driven view more strongly held than ours, I fear. That simple Simon er..Duncan Smith, says he is deeply religious-how the hell can that sit with his view of trading domination? It's all humbug at the top!
> 
> All the UK's riches when we had them, came from Empire via private armies and the odd gunboat, by plunder of raw material, processed by the industrial revolution, and sold back to the Empire, with the odd cargo of slaves to fill an empty hold. Later benefit of early industrialisation gave us an easy sell of heavy engineering till the end of the Edwardian age, since when we have been happily declining. We need another industrial revolution to be that rich again. It will have to be high tec because of labour costs, and we don't seem to be very good at keeping good ideas for oursleves. Further, we have cut back on education and training to the point that finding a skilled workforce is not easy. Korea put human resource development into top gear about 20 years ago, realising that low skilled jobs would be moving to low wage economies. Hi tec revolutions demand huge long term investment, not the UK's favouite short term gain. It's likely that only the most powerful blocs, China, USA, EU, will have the cash to succed in that regard.
> 
> Needing some new diamond sharpening plates, had a look on Ali Express for a couple at 600 grit. £2.60 each, £5.20 total, free post. Checkout, now charging VAT at 20% !! Ahhrgh!! ( abolition of _Low Value_ Consignment Relief )



Ivan, that is how it is. Spot on.


----------



## artie

doctor Bob said:


> I'll also add, why is this thread allowed but others have been removed. threads.





Rorschach said:


> Probably because certain members didn't get involved (I think they have left).



I was quite amazed by some previous threads, where a certain member asked for a thread to be closed and it was.


----------



## Awac

Droogs said:


> just seen this - food for thought




You know this is going to be the big debate this year. Problem is, England looks very small if Scotland leave, and then you have Faslane submarine base....


----------



## Awac

artie said:


> I was quite amazed by some previous threads, where a certain member asked for a thread to be closed and it was.


I missed that, what thread was removed? I thought it had all been good adult debate?


----------



## Jacob

Awac said:


> You know this is going to be the big debate this year. Problem is, England looks very small if Scotland leave, and then you have Faslane submarine base....


Good point. It could be a Culloden replay but with nuclear weapons.


----------



## artie

Awac said:


> I missed that, what thread was removed? I thought it had all been good adult debate?


Not this thread.
It was a while back


----------



## Droogs

I am thinking of starting a petition in Westminstter for signing it will be to outlaw retrospectively and for always dual nationality for any uk citizen unless they were physically born in the country of which they also claim to be a citizen or unless they are a current full time resident and qualify for dual citizenship through naturalisation. It will also propose that it would be illegal to hold more than £15K in a non UK mainland bank account as a private citizen unless you are permanently domiciled in the nation in which the account is located. The penalty would be forfeiture of all UK assests including overseas territories.
Call it the "we are in it together act".


What do you think


----------



## Terry - Somerset

We have spent over four years arguing about Brexit and getting terribly heated in debate. It has now happened. Get used to it!

I thought then, and still think it profoundly stupid. In the short term we have lost far more than we have gained. Whether it is justified by longer term benefits or political dogma is debatable.

Public trust in political debate and media reporting has never been lower. The whole saga may have done more damage to the UK and democracy than the act of Brexit.

It is utterly pointless revisiting the decision. We will never know for sure if it was the right thing to do - politicians and the media will simply dig out data which supports whatever contention they want to promote.

And if all else fails, any outcome will be ascribed to the pandemic.

The best strategy is now to accept the outcome and focus on making it work - anything else is quite simply futile waste of energy.


----------



## billw

Droogs said:


> I am thinking of starting a petition in Westminstter for signing it will be to outlaw retrospectively and for always dual nationality for any uk citizen unless they were physically born in the country of which they also claim to be a citizen or unless they are a current full time resident and qualify for dual citizenship through naturalisation. It will also propose that it would be illegal to hold more than £15K in a non UK mainland bank account as a private citizen unless you are permanently domiciled in the nation in which the account is located. The penalty would be forfeiture of all UK assests including overseas territories.
> Call it the "we are in it together act".
> 
> 
> What do you think



Singapore don't allow dual citizenship, if you want to be part of their country, you commit to it. 

People would find a way round the £15k limit, for example form a limited company in the Cayman Islands, and loan it lots of your money, then it's technically the company's not your private money.

I have an offshore bank account that I still use since it has a sort code, when I sell my property I'll instantly become a criminal and have all my money forfeited... unless there's a rule allowing certain situations, which will then need adjusting as more problems are found, and then people use those changes as loopholes.


----------



## artie

Complex subject.
Only thing I know is they told us if we joined the "then" common market, that prices would rise a lot. and they did.

Then they said if we leave the "EU" prices will rise substantially.

As far as I can see the only thing you can bet on is price increases.


----------



## Awac

Terry - Somerset said:


> We have spent over four years arguing about Brexit and getting terribly heated in debate. It has now happened. Get used to it!
> The best strategy is now to accept the outcome and focus on making it work - anything else is quite simply futile waste of energy.



_Using the same formula._
We were in the EU, people should have got used to it, accepted it and focused on making it work, anything else was a waste of energy. 
If Nicola Sturgeon could only just understand the act of union in 1707 has been signed and done (at the time it was one of the most unpopular political moves ever to have taken place north of the border. Sound familiar?).

_My point?_ 
In a democracy we can vote again, mistakes happen, this is why you have these kind of discussions. I am alarmed at the rhetoric that has been and is being used by the government. I will always question. Yes I am here for wood talk because "normal" people don't get that (_they glaze over, ever had that?_), but I am also interested in what a like minded group of (_not normal LOL_) people think about the world they live in. Agree, disagree, no matter, it allows me to check my thoughts and balance what is right and wrong morally for me.

I appreciate your post, and I hope your faith in Boris and the cabinet he has chosen is well founded and I am wrong, I really mean that, but I can't shake this bad feeling I have. I keep imagining 10 years from now young people saying to me "seriously, you didn't realise they were acting irresponsibly, I mean the things _they said_!".....


----------



## Awac

Just thinking.


Does anyone on here have any import/export knowledge that would help small producers/private buyers get the best deal selling/buying from the UK/EU? 
Is there a way, obviously legal, but to our benefit that a group/association could trade new and used goods between UK and EU? 
I expect some of you are in the EU on a local forum, what is being said in those forums, and do they have any ideas of how we can trade tools, goods and equipment. 
New, used, collectable and antique, do any of these carry less tax burden?


----------



## billw

Awac said:


> Just thinking.
> 
> New, used, collectable and antique, do any of these carry less tax burden?



Only antiques, over 100 years old is subject to 5% VAT. Must be in qualifying categories too.

The new rules look incredibly simple though, which is amazing for a tax regime.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Replying to Sploo
> 
> Job done.
> Optimism
> Lots of slagging off remainers flow charts for importing.
> Remainers are still bitter
> Much as you would expect etc etc


Agreed.

I guess my point is that, if the end goal was simply "leave" (with no other considerations) then it's absolutely job done - we've left, and there's no arguing about that.

But, given that we already have a number of concrete and known downsides, there must be some other upsides that are being discussed - otherwise it's essentially a celebration of self harm?

Ironically, one of the criticisms of Brexit was that it could allow erosion of workers' rights, and lowering of standards (in order to increase profits). However, given the number of concessions made to sign a deal (e.g. acceptance of penalties for diverging standards), I wonder if the hardline Brexiteers even got that?


----------



## Droogs

billw said:


> Singapore don't allow dual citizenship, if you want to be part of their country, you commit to it.
> 
> People would find a way round the £15k limit, for example form a limited company in the Cayman Islands, and loan it lots of your money, then it's technically the company's not your private money.
> 
> I have an offshore bank account that I still use since it has a sort code, when I sell my property I'll instantly become a criminal and have all my money forfeited... unless there's a rule allowing certain situations, which will then need adjusting as more problems are found, and then people use those changes as loopholes.


Simple, make it also illegal for a mainland domiciled person to own an off-shore limited company, you can only invest in PLCs. ~If you live here then be registered here for your business activities and pay UK tax. Any overseas earnings from foreign companies registered in known tax havens are taxed at 70% and anything bought with money held overseas has the 200% JRM Britannia Jingoist Git Tax applied to it. Also MPs must give up all holdings in non UK companies within 60 days of being elected. If you are Joe Bloggs then you get 90 days to sort your affairs and bring the cash home for proper taxation.

The whole point of the act is to stop the gits that shafted and lied to us from making any profit from it


----------



## Noel

Droogs said:


> Simple, make it also illegal for a mainland domiciled person to own an off-shore limited company, you can only invest in PLCs. ~If you live here then be registered here for your business activities and pay UK tax. Any overseas earnings from foreign companies registered in known tax havens are taxed at 70% and anything bought with money held overseas has the 200% JRM Britannia Jingoist Git Tax applied to it. Also MPs must give up all holdings in non UK companies within 60 days of being elected. If you are Joe Bloggs then you get 90 days to sort your affairs and bring the cash home for proper taxation.
> 
> The whole point of the act is to stop the gits that shafted and lied to us from making any profit from it



Yep and make it a rule that any sitting/future MPs have only one job to do- represent their constituents. No 50 grand a year for 5 mins "work" for an excavator manufacturer or 100 grand a year advising pharma PLCs or sitting on the board of some city investment fund. If 80k a year plus expenses isn't enough don't stand as a candidate.
Oh. and ditch FPTP, introduce PR voting or similar.


----------



## Lefley

doctor Bob said:


> I'm not surprised as it supports your view more. I like my other forum as it supports my view more. But accept I have really not changed my opinion one bit.
> It's tribalism, exactly like football for politically minded.
> 
> 
> Although to be honest Jacob, your home team is not remain but Jeremy Corbyn   but even when relegation happens the love continues.


What is the other forum. As a Canadian I’d like to read both sides of this story?


----------



## Lefley

Seems like a big winner in all this I’d the government they get to charge 20 vat on everything you guys import from the eu now!


----------



## clogs

for the prime minister and down.....
Honesty and truthfulness should start at the top, no wonder people try to wriggle out of paying tax.....etc....

Cameron lost a brilliant oppertunity to stop all the fiddling at the top (floating duck houses etc).....
all MPs and families etc should have all their tax doucuments open to public scrutiny.....
any wrong doing should be a prison offence with all such profits convfiscated and double the amount as a fine.....
with no social security payments for the same family for 10 years....
and if you don't like get a normal job....
that way we may just get on with making the UK a great place again.....

MP's should see working for the country an honour not a way of filling their pockets....

And as for selling brilliant idea's, the Uk does not really encourage those kinda people...
Get a good idea and take it to the US etc and make ur profit, who can blame them.....

All genuine research should be free of tax and VAT........only paying when products go to market......


----------



## doctor Bob

Lefley said:


> What is the other forum. As a Canadian I’d like to read both sides of this story?


I think it ran to 4000 pages, so I wouldn't bother, just read will as won't, should as shouldn't, the calling each other asreholes still happened, etc etc


----------



## doctor Bob

clogs said:


> for the prime minister and down.....
> Honesty and truthfulness should start at the top, no wonder people try to wriggle out of paying tax.....etc....
> 
> Cameron lost a brilliant oppertunity to stop all the fiddling at the top (floating duck houses etc).....
> all MPs and families etc should have all their tax doucuments open to public scrutiny.....
> any wrong doing should be a prison offence with all such profits convfiscated and double the amount as a fine.....
> with no social security payments for the same family for 10 years....
> and if you don't like get a normal job....
> that way we may just get on with making the UK a great place again.....
> 
> MP's should see working for the country an honour not a way of filling their pockets....
> 
> And as for selling brilliant idea's, the Uk does not really encourage those kinda people...
> Get a good idea and take it to the US etc and make ur profit, who can blame them.....
> 
> All genuine research should be free of tax and VAT........only paying when products go to market......



MP's salary is £81000, yes it's a nice salary, but if you have brains you will get that as a graduate salary plus bonus in the city. Could easily be on 6 figures at 22, 7 figures by 30. This is why MP's are generally very mediocre


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> This one's OK cos it's all quite civilised - so far!
> People seemed to be real upset by all the political stuff, which is interesting in itself. It's as though they were really surprised and shocked to hear opinions different from their own. Personally I'm quite used to it!



No I think it's because we have left, therefore most posts are from remainers explaining how it will all go wrong or has gone wrong. Pretty evident if you read the thread through. Pro brexit folks probably feel no need to post. As mentioned before I feel no need to debate or rationalise, as it is done. My recent posts have been more about the uefulness of political internet debates / arguements.
I said it was like football tribalism before, the game is over, remainer FC lost by a couple of dubious goals / offsides etc. Brexit FC fans are going home happy, thinking about whats on the tele, Remainer FC fans are down the pub, slagging off their teams performance, the "if onlys", we'll do them next time, rubbish manager (JC).


----------



## Phil Pascoe

I have said for years that the number of MPs should be reduced to 200 and that they should be paid £250,000 p.a. ...........
out of which they should pay their own tax deductible expenses other than legitimate 2nd class travel to and from London. They should have accommodation provided if necessary - there'll be enough bankrupt hotels on the market soon that could be bought and used. No taxpayer subsidised second homes.
As Dr. Bob said - a starting salary for a qualified solicitor at the law firm my cousin's a partner in in London is £90,000.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> ..... As mentioned before I feel no need to debate or rationalise,


Doesn't seem to be stopping you! In fact I'm sure you've mentioned it before!


> ... My recent posts have been more about the uefulness of political internet debates / arguements.
> ...


It's the main-spring of democracy and absolutely fundamental to the way we live. When the talking stops you know things have really gone wrong.


----------



## billw

We live in an individualistic, capitalist, materialist society and people are surprised that MPs do everything they can to enrich themselves?

evne if they get caught then political tribalism kicks in and their party bends over backwards to justify their behaviour. Look at the Priti Patel example (I don’t know all the facts though,willing to be corrected) for how being a bully in the workplace is apparently just fine.


----------



## Awac

doctor Bob said:


> No I think it's because we have left, therefore most posts are from remainers explaining how it will all go wrong or has gone wrong. Pretty evident if you read the thread through. Pro brexit folks probably feel no need to post. As mentioned before I feel no need to debate or rationalise, as it is done. My recent posts have been more about the uefulness of political internet debates / arguements.
> I said it was like football tribalism before, the game is over, remainer FC lost by a couple of dubious goals / offsides etc. Brexit FC fans are going home happy, thinking about whats on the tele, Remainer FC fans are down the pub, slagging off their teams performance, the "if onlys", we'll do them next time, rubbish manager (JC).



I think you'll find it is the Brexit fans in the pub....

_"In the distance and through the darkness we can see the brightly illuminated pub sign of our destination"_-Boris Johnstone (New year message). Us Remainers have gone home to read the Guardian....


----------



## billw

Whilst I didn’t vote in the referendum, I was in Gibraltar at the time and my residency missed the deadline to be registered by a few weeks ( hardly mattered there though lol) I think it’s a shame we left but it’s happened and we need to look forward.

Problem is all I see right now is a lot of people being jingoistic, xenophobic, and flag waving nationalists feeling all smug about being British before going home for a jolly nice cup of tea (from India, but that’s ok because “it was once ours”) and thinking job done.

So erm.... exactly what IS the plan? Sign a few trade agreements? Most of them don’t seem to change much at all. The US one would be detrimental to our standards and I have yet to see anything where we gain a tangible benefit on exports.

What jobs are we going to do? Finance jobs are going to Frankfurt and Paris, manufacturing jobs mostly left anyway although we do have a wealth of high-tech manufacturing left I agree.

I laughed when someone lauded BMW’s announcement that they’re shifting all their ICE production to the U.K. Surely that means they see no future in making stuff here so we’ve been given the tech that’s being phase out and all the electrical powertrains will be made abroad. 

So my view is this country now has no direction, no obvious plan, and a leader who is full of sound bites and sorely lacking in any sort of desire to put things into action.


----------



## Awac

doctor Bob said:


> MP's salary is £81000, yes it's a nice salary, but if you have brains you will get that as a graduate salary plus bonus in the city. Could easily be on 6 figures at 22, 7 figures by 30. This is why MP's are generally very mediocre


As Clogs said:
_
"MP's should see working for the country an honour not a way of filling their pockets...." _

If you are good at your job as an MP, after you leave your paltry £81k pa job, you could pick up all manner of consultancy work, probably at more than minimum wage. It should be a stepping stone where you show how good you are....and if you are at the end of your working life and you have been earning 6-7 figure sums, don't you think you could afford to accept _*only*_ £81k. 
_"Each commodity has a use value, measured by its usefulness in satisfying needs and wants",_ how much do you think a politician is worth? Thanks Karl.


----------



## doctor Bob

Awac said:


> How much do you think a politician is worth? Thanks Karl.



Depends, very broard span, starting at the bottom, an alcoholic EU leader, nothing.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> I said it was like football tribalism before, the game is over, remainer FC lost by a couple of dubious goals / offsides etc. Brexit FC fans are going home happy, thinking about whats on the tele, Remainer FC fans are down the pub, slagging off their teams performance, the "if onlys", we'll do them next time, rubbish manager (JC).


Bob, I hate to point out that the above is an analogy  

(I don't disagree with it though)


----------



## sploo

Droogs said:


> The whole point of the act is to stop the gits that shafted and lied to us from making any profit from it


The problem Droogs, is that the lying gits that shafted us are currently in charge! I.e. I think it's rather unlikely that any such changes would happen.


----------



## Awac

doctor Bob said:


> Depends, very broard span, starting at the bottom, an alcoholic EU leader, nothing.



LOL. No need to go as far as Europe....he is leading the charge!
_"In the distance and through the darkness we can see the brightly illuminated pub sign of our destination"_-Boris Johnstone (New year message).


----------



## RobinBHM

Terry - Somerset said:


> The best strategy is now to accept the outcome and focus on making it work - anything else is quite simply futile waste of energy.



The difficulty is that until the lies, misinformation, gaslighting and populist strategies are ended, the division will continue.

The last few days has seen MPs on Twitter busy pushing more brexit dishonest propaganda:

here is one example:

Steve Baker proclaims: "the govt is now getting rod of 5% VAT on sanitary products....which it can now do because of brexit."
(Steve Bake voted against removing that tax 5 years ago)


Do you think I should say "oh its fine being lied to, I mustnt complain, I must make it all work"

the only way division will end is when the lying stops.....and that will only happen when people discover "sovereignty" (whatever that is) doesnt protect them from personal hardship


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> given the number of concessions made to sign a deal (e.g. acceptance of penalties for diverging standards)



What it means in reality is that the trade deal was really only a kicking the can down the road -because it means more and more negotiations. In reality the drive to free up trade with the worlds largest customs union means the UK will slowly negotiate closer and closer relationship with the EU........which will be on hold while the children are still in power here.


----------



## Jacob

Terry - Somerset said:


> ......mic.
> 
> The best strategy is now to accept the outcome and focus on making it work - anything else is quite simply futile waste of energy.


But to make what work exactly, and how? 
We are seeing how people are coping with the problems but nobody seems to know how _to take advantage_ of our wonderful new world order. 
What are people able now to do differently and better?


----------



## dfps

jcassidy said:


> Youtube: You're free (to do what you want to do)!
> YouTube: You picked a fine time to leave me, UK!


----------



## artie

Noel said:


> Oh. and ditch FPTP, introduce PR voting or similar.


How about educating people so they realise that they are not voting for the decision makers, they are merely voting for the face on TV which relays the decision to us.


----------



## Droogs

Well @Jacob, we can now:
Plan our overseas holidays so that we go by BEV and use the 3 hour border delay to recharge our batteries.
Make a few bob down the pub by selling all the fags and booze we managed to sneak back in our underpants
Have the school kids re-energize that age old school holiday pastime of tattie picking and scything in the harvest
Reach our carbon zero target by reducing our transport emissions by not having anywhere near the number of EU driving permits we need
Have a fully environmental economy as we probably won't be able to afford the fuel for all these marvelously made British motor industry gas guzzlers as no BEV tech is being installed in our car factories just for some tiny vans
Learn to enjoy whale at the chip shop due to our amazingly brilliant new trade deal with Japan
Discover the wonderful joy in eating a real KFC that has been to the public baths before cooking
Reminisce about how we had weird red passport that we didn't really need to use even though we took them everywhere we went on the continent. How strange, at least now we get to line up for a really cool stamp
Remember the time you had a job interview on the Friday and started the new job on the Tuesday in Dresden, it would have been Monday but you couldn't put your stuff in storage over the weekend


the list goes on but the most important is the chance to sneak in price hikes and blame Boris


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> This is why MP's are generally very mediocre



Maybe political parties dont want bright people to be MPs....its in their favour to have MPs that simply vote for whatever the party wants.

why have thinkers when you can get sheep


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> Pro brexit folks probably feel no need to post


but youve just said your other forum is full of brexers....going on for 4000 pages

and its not true brexiteers have the been the most vocal, the most angry throughout 2020 and will be even more angry this year.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> the game is over



Youve fallen for the Johnson narrative.

brexit is actually only on day 3......

now lets have a think and wonder why brexiteers were so happy to expand and cement misinformation all the time they were enjoying the benefits of the Single Market.....but are now so desperate so shut down any debate on it.

If brexit is going to be fantastic, brexiters would be wanting to talk about it


so come on Bob, what is it you want to hide away from? ☺


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> but youve just said your other forum is full of brexers....going on for 4000 pages
> 
> and its not true brexiteers have the been the most vocal, the most angry throughout 2020 and will be even more angry this year.



Sorry was, it's now just whingers posting.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> Youve fallen for the Johnson narrative.
> 
> brexit is actually only on day 3......
> 
> now lets have a think and wonder why brexiteers were so happy to expand and cement misinformation all the time they were enjoying the benefits of the Single Market.....but are now so desperate so shut down any debate on it.
> 
> If brexit is going to be fantastic, brexiters would be wanting to talk about it
> 
> 
> so come on Bob, what is it you want to hide away from? ☺


Sorry mate, where did I say I wanted to shut down debate? You lot carry on, all for it. I even said don't shut the thread down.
I suppose it's deifficult to have a debate/ arguement amongst yourselves, but you do have Jacob at the table so someone will get annoyed soon to fuel the debate /arguement


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> and its not true brexiteers have the been the most vocal, the most angry throughout 2020 and will be even more angry this year.



of course it suits your narrative to say this. I'd say the opposite. That's just what happens. £5please for that arguement, if you want a better one go next door ...................

you sound a little bit annoyed, I'm as happy as larry. So that bit of your quote doesn't ring true. with me, but we are just 2.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> Maybe political parties dont want bright people to be MPs....its in their favour to have MPs that simply vote for whatever the party wants.
> 
> why have thinkers when you can get sheep


Good point, maybe that explains how Diane Abbott has risen the ranks.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

It takes a special breed of person to become a politician. They clearly enjoy that which the more normal avoid:

willingness to endure public humiliation, abuse and criticism
start a career which almost inevitably ends in failure
They may believe their sacrifice is in the best interests of the country and its citizens. This is often delusional.

Political leadership requires people with high levels of certain competencies - in particular creating the illusion that you agree with everybody and know everything. Very occassionally genuine compassion can work.

It would be preferable that those with the highest level of ability are not dissuaded from a political career through want of a decent income. £81k pa is more than most earn, but for the really able does not "cut the mustard". It is far too little to attract the right talent.

Contrast this with an apparent general lack of concern for the relatively unimportant - earnings of those who kick footballs, play music, act in films etc, whose income may be £81k per week, not pa. This is bizarre.

I would not suggest so generous a package for our political leaders - but (say) £500k pa may attract the best, not just the egotistical and flawed.


----------



## Spectric

We could have a very different political system now had Guy Fawkes not messed up, and yet we continue to celebrate his failure!


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> Good point, maybe that explains how Diane Abbott has risen the ranks.


I see you are trying to bring the thread to an end Bobby! Do you want a list of thick tories? Start with Gavin Williamson?


----------



## Spectric

Diane Abbot, she rose through the ranks because she was to Mr Corben what Monica Lewinsky was to Bill Clinton.


----------



## billw

Jacob said:


> I see you are trying to bring the thread to end Bobby! Do you want a list of thick tories? Start with Gavin Williamson?



Political views aside, she comes across as a complete idi0t.


----------



## Jake

My £5 says the other thread is the Pistonheads one.


----------



## Trainee neophyte

.


Spectric said:


> Diane Abbot, she rose through the ranks because she was to Mr Corben what Monica Lewinsky was to Bill Clinton.


For anyone traumatised by the mental images conjured by the above: Eyebleach.me | Eye Bleach, soothe your mind.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> I see you are trying to bring the thread to end Bobby! Do you want a list of thick tories? Start with Gavin Williamson?



Indeed Jacob .......................... why is Diane Abbott a thread ender, surely even she can't f--- up a thread with no participation        granted she's messed up plenty of interviews with little knowledgeable participation.
I think you're getting paranoid, don't blame you, if they shut this thread down where will the resistance go ............... Jacob would be the french gerndarme...... "gud moaning, I was pissing by the door, when I heard two shats. You are holding in your hand a smoking goon; you are clearly the guilty potty."


----------



## Awac

dfps said:


> I have a micro digger and 4x4 mini dumper at a property in France that I took over last year.
> I have little in the way of proof that I took them over from the UK on the ferry on a trailer apart from some random photos of the machine in the UK and the machine on a trailer prior to leaving so am a bit concerned how I would fair when I have to bring them back to the UK sometime later this year after Brexit !
> 
> Bit niche I supposed but other people must have similar large equipment or tooling in the EU that they took over from the UK ?
> 
> Anyone ?


If you look around at home, would you not be able to find that dated receipt for purchase of said machines for non profit use before leaving the EU? Might that give you proof of ownership before, and thus would have been bought whilst under EU law? I am wondering this myself.....sorry if it has been answered trying to catch up...been under a Renault all day.........no jokes please.....


----------



## Danieljw

sploo said:


> Interesting. If it is true then what's the motive? To establish dominance of Chinese companies?


If it is true!!!!
Really!!!
Even goods labelled "made in england" "made in europe" are done so by Chinese companies that have set up companies in the UK and or Europe...
The east does not need to go to war...
It simply has to own your economy..
The job is already done.
Perhaps an insight would be a quick study of the United buscuit company...


----------



## Jake

I see Johnson's summary to Marr of what Brexit offers to the left behind was (i) banning pulse fishing and (ii) freeports.


----------



## Noel

Jake said:


> I see Johnson's summary to Marr of what Brexit offers to the left behind was (i) banning pulse fishing and (ii) freeports.



It that the same Pulse fishing that several EU states banned a few years ago? 

Freeports? Like those that were in Southampton, Liverpool, Tilbury and many other places until quite recently?


----------



## Jacob

According to this What is a free port? All you need to know about the free-trade zones freeports could create 150,000 jobs. Presumably this reflects some of the extra work and bureaucracy created by Brexit.
They didn't sell brexit as a job creation scheme - obviously missed a trick - just think of Farages garages for starters!
PS if job creation was the thing they could have just banned a few cranes and brought in the stevedores!


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> I see Johnson's summary to Marr of what Brexit offers to the left behind was (i) banning pulse fishing and (ii) freeports.


Interesting, I never saw the interview, I have just watched the 5pm ish news on BBC and ITV and it looked very much like a "covid" interview, neither even mentioned brexit, neither anchors or roving reporters, just coronavirus. Keir interviewed he never mentioned brexit. Looks like Brexit is now far less newsworthy. I guess they are right Brexit looks like a molehill compared with the pandemic.

Quite right too, its getting very serious.


----------



## billw

Don't forget that Weetabix are Chinese now too! Edit : oh wait, they sold it to the Americans.


----------



## TRITON

Both my nephews are economists.

Conversation around the dinner table is - according to them - The economy is fecked.


----------



## Rorschach

TRITON said:


> Both my nephews are economists.
> 
> Conversation around the dinner table is - according to them - The economy is fecked.



Isn't that always what economists say though? They would do themselves out of a job otherwise


----------



## billw

Rorschach said:


> Isn't that always what economists say though? They would do themselves out of a job otherwise



Economists are like weather presenters - they tell you what'll happen in the future and if it doesn't they'll just say it was only a prediction. Can't lose!


----------



## doctor Bob

TRITON said:


> Both my nephews are economists.
> 
> Conversation around the dinner table is - according to them - The economy is fecked.



I can go with that, pandemic has wiped £6700,000,000,000 off the gobal economy, brexit success or failure is miniscule.


----------



## Rorschach

billw said:


> Economists are like weather presenters - they tell you what'll happen in the future and if it doesn't they'll just say it was only a prediction. Can't lose!



At least a weather presenter will predict nice weather as well as bad though, economists seem to be either bad, or worse.


----------



## Jake

doctor Bob said:


> I guess they are right Brexit looks like a molehill compared with the pandemic.
> 
> Quite right too, its getting very serious.



He's hopeless at that too unfortunately, basically incapable of leading anything anywhere apart from into a blind alley out of which he needs to reverse, over and over again.


----------



## Jake

doctor Bob said:


> I can go with that, pandemic has wiped £6700,000,000,000 off the gobal economy, brexit success or failure is miniscule.



You cannot switch from a short term external hit to a long term internal hindrance like that. We will uniquely still have the latter. And (like all other economies) be fighting the former.


----------



## AJB Temple

Im my experience (in the City) economists are either pessimists, or pedlars of analysis of what has already happened. An optimistic economist, or one who believes he or she can forecast, becomes a "trader". If they are more often right than wrong they get employed by hedge funds.


----------



## RobinBHM

Trainee neophyte said:


> EU agricultural dumping: Stop the Dumping! How EU agricultural subsidies are damaging livelihoods in the developing world - Oxfam Policy & Practice
> 
> Mind you, Oxfam is more of an MI6 policy implementation system than charity, so it's probably just politics rather than serious objection to EU practices. If you are lucky the EU will dump lots of cheap excess production into the UK, and you will get lower prices in Tescos. It won't help UK farmers, but there aren't enough of them to be a voting block, so who cares? Eat the rich!



That Oxfam article is 20 years old.
The EU has developed everything but arms trade preferences which the poor regions of Africa benefit from.

UK farming is ar risk from USA not EU.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> You cannot switch from a short term external hit to a long term internal hindrance like that. We will uniquely still have the latter. And (like all other economies) be fighting the former.



Your opinions are your own Jake, if you think the pandemics effect is short term I hope you are right. Personally I think the effects will last for a generation or two.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> I think the one think to come out of brexit is that these days, argueing for 4 years on an internet forum brings out the worst in people (me included) achieves nothing, no one changed their mind, and the debate is never ending, it's never over whilst people want one upmanship. On a forum people don't want to give up, be proved wrong, listen to other views, read diverse arguements written by unlike minds.
> Yet on more rational topics most are quite open.
> I have read and follwed this thread with interest, as I do on a bigger forum where the influence is more pro brexit. It follows exactly the same path but reverse as more posts are pro, where as here most are against.
> It's just a numbers game as to who dominates the forum, it therefore encourages more posts as the winning feeling is there ....................... Just my opinion.



I don't want one upmanship, I want the pro Brexit govt and media to stop lying

Yesterday's Telegraph had an article about VAT on sanitary products....a lie (Tories voted against it 5 years ago)

Johnson yesterday stated UK has banned pulse fishing (was banned by EU in 1998, reprieve in 2010 for UK and Dutch, now perm ban by EU this year )

Johnson yesterday stated UK could have freeports .....we always could.


----------



## RobinBHM

selectortone said:


> The Chinese government subsidises, or pays entirely, for shipping costs of stuff we buy from Banggood, AliExpress et al. Unless we wake up and start to support local manufacturing they will have no competition eventually. Then look out.


I believe a bigger problem is the Chinese sellers on eBay don't put on VAT making it impossible for UK businesses to compete.


----------



## billw

doctor Bob said:


> Your opinions are your own Jake, if you think the pandemics effect is short term I hope you are right. Personally I think the effects will last for a generation or two.



Agree Bob, the pandemic will lead to people working longer to make up their pensions, with less jobs surviving overall, the lower paid jobs (that the young generally do) becoming scarcer which leads to long-term unemployment and lack of opportunity.

Somehow the government has to figure out a plan of paying off all this debt, although the global consensus seems to be that countries can simply be on the never-never for the long term. We didn't pay off the WW1 debts until 2015, and WW2 was only done by 2006. The levels of borrowing for the pandemic are enormous. Governments don't have money of their own, they can only raise taxation revenues. It's quite scary for the future generations.


----------



## billw

RobinBHM said:


> I believe a bigger problem is the Chinese sellers on eBay don't put on VAT making it impossible for UK businesses to compete.



Every purchase I've made on Amazon (sorry can't compare to ebay directly) from a Chinese seller has been accompanied by a VAT invoice. I'm not sure the problem is as significant as it seems.


----------



## Awac

RobinBHM said:


> That Oxfam article is 20 years old.
> The EU has developed everything but arms trade preferences which the poor regions of Africa benefit from.
> 
> UK farming is ar risk from USA not EU.


Arms trade! Welcome, come to the UK! I know all political parties have done it, but I get the feelings it is going to be a big industry post brexit now the Uk can trade with anyone....









UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia unlawful, court of appeal declares


Ruling prompts government to suspend new arms sales to Saudi Arabia while it urgently reviews its processes




www.theguardian.com




_"Three judges said that a decision made in secret in 2016 had led them to decide that Boris Johnson, Jeremy Hunt and Liam Fox and other key ministers had illegally signed off on arms exports without properly assessing the risk to civilians". _









UK accused of selling arms to Saudi Arabia a year after court ban


British companies continue to fulfil fighter jet contracts which allow the kingdom to wage war in Yemen, despite the trade being ruled unlawful




www.theguardian.com




_“The UK government has consistently put arms company interests ahead of the rights and lives of people in Yemen. The government has proven that it cannot be trusted to implement its own rules.”









High court deals deadly blow to people of Yemen


We are Amnesty International UK. We are ordinary people from across the world standing up for humanity and human rights.




www.amnesty.org.uk




"The UK High Court has dealt a deadly blow to the people of Yemen by ruling that the UK government may continue selling arms to Saudi Arabia despite what Amnesty believes is a clear risk they will be used to commit human rights violations". _


----------



## billw

@Awac defence spending is a seriously contentious subject. The US economy has a bias towards reliance on it, so it's in their interest that the world isn't at peace. The UK generally lapdogs the position. 

Find me an American investor who thinks a Yemeni life is more important than the quarterly profit report to their investors. *shakes head*


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> .............................govt and media to stop lying



That would be ideal indeed, but surely we should include all politicians, maybe CEO's as well, royal family would be good. I'd like football managers too. Come to think of it, suppliers, drives me nuts when they tell me shiit. My Mrs spins a few as well about cost of things.
I'm all ears, how do you propose to stop people in important positions to stop lying, or spin as Labour called it. That Tony Blair should have his balls cut off maybe? Jeremy as well, his tax briefs were just made up goobledygook. I'm not sure we'd have any politicians left, and not a lot would take the jobs if distortion of truths was banned. However I'm all for it, good idea.


----------



## RobinBHM

Its impossible to give any economic predictions in regards to Brexit.

But it is possible to predict what problems putting significant trade barriers between the UK and it's biggest trade partner will have on UK businesses

We already know FDI has dropped 19% since 2016, so we need to see what happens this year to see what happens to FDI.


----------



## Awac

billw said:


> @Awac defence spending is a seriously contentious subject. The US economy has a bias towards reliance on it, so it's in their interest that the world isn't at peace. The UK generally lapdogs the position.
> 
> Find me an American investor who thinks a Yemeni life is more important than the quarterly profit report to their investors. *shakes head*



I remember an old saying when I was young (ger)"America sneezes and a week later Britain catches a cold". 
Hmm, do you think Boris can ever be the man Donald was......can pupil surpass master? I bloody well hope not. Mind you Boris was born in America (immigrant???), does this make him the first American prime minister, but maybe not the last? Ouch!


----------



## billw

Awac said:


> I remember an old saying when I was young (ger)"America sneezes and a week later Britain catches a cold".
> Hmm, do you think Boris can ever be the man Donald was......can pupil surpass master? I bloody well hope not. Mind you Boris was born in America (immigrant???), does this make him the first American prime minister, but maybe not the last? Ouch!



Don't get me started on BJ. I say this without any political influence, but he's an absolute f**king moron.


----------



## sploo

billw said:


> Don't get me started on BJ. I say this without any political influence, but he's an absolute f**king moron.


I don't think Boris is a moron, but he is unfit for public office. If you look at his past (both professional and personal) you'll see a man that has essentially zero connection to the truth. He's lost several jobs (journalistic and political) for lying, and is a serial adulterer. I'm not making a moral judgement on the infidelity, but to be able to cheat on multiple different women (I believe even fathering a child whilst with someone else) then you've got to be comfortable with deceit.

Add to that his role in trying to have a rival journalist assaulted, and he really shouldn't be anywhere near the leadership.


----------



## Jake

doctor Bob said:


> Your opinions are your own Jake, if you think the pandemics effect is short term I hope you are right. Personally I think the effects will last for a generation or two.



In what sense? Economically, the evidence is their effects are very short-lived. Hurt? That's a different question but not something that Johnson gives a toss about.


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> I don't think Boris is a moron, but he is unfit for public office. If you look at his past (both professional and personal) you'll see a man that has essentially zero connection to the truth. He's lost several jobs (journalistic and political) for lying, and is a serial adulterer. I'm not making a moral judgement on the infidelity, but to be able to cheat on multiple different women (I believe even fathering a child whilst with someone else) then you've got to be comfortable with deceit.
> 
> Add to that his role in trying to have a rival journalist assaulted, and he really shouldn't be anywhere near the leadership.



Sorry yeah I think I condensed your post into one word. He's not fit to lead a puppy on a lead let alone a country.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

In 2021 the economy is expected to be ~8% smaller than pre covid. In earlier years the economy grew by ~ 2% pa. So the economic impact of covid is to take us back to ~2016. 

We will never know whether we have caught up with where we would have been had covid never happened. And I'm not sure it matters - reality is where we are now, not where we might have been. 

I know the losses have not been spread evenly - some sectors have fared far worse than others. But I am an optimist - we should build back better, not regret what has been lost.


----------



## Rorschach

billw said:


> It's quite scary for the future generations.



Tell me about it, I was scared enough before all of this C19 nonsense started. I wasn't expecting a state pension but I thought I might at least be able to rely on the savings I could put aside and hopefully a house. Now I fully expect house prices to outstrip my earnings potential and be stuck in a rent loop and what savings I do have to be forcefully removed in a capital grab to pay for all this.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> That would be ideal indeed, but surely we should include all politicians, maybe CEO's as well, royal family would be good. I'd like football managers too. Come to think of it, suppliers, drives me nuts when they tell me shiit. My Mrs spins a few as well about cost of things.
> I'm all ears, how do you propose to stop people in important positions to stop lying, or spin as Labour called it. That Tony Blair should have his balls cut off maybe? Jeremy as well, his tax briefs were just made up goobledygook. I'm not sure we'd have any politicians left, and not a lot would take the jobs if distortion of truths was banned. However I'm all for it, good idea.



Ah, the good old "everybody lies" whataboutery.

What I want to know is why Tory MPs constantly lie about Brexit?

The UK has left, they aren't campaigning, why are they still lying?

It's constant, I fact check everything I hear about Brexit from all sides and nothing, literally nothing Tory MPs say about Brexit is honest. Ever.

I'm sorry but until they stop lying, don't expect the public to "move on"


If Brexit is so great, why the need for lies?


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> C19 nonsense started



It is not nonsense.

You need to go and work in a Covid ICU ward....you might then shut up peddling your nonsense.

ICU staff in London hospitals are under massive pressure, they way you dismiss it frankly disgusts me.


----------



## Rorschach

RobinBHM said:


> It is not nonsense.
> 
> You need to go and work in a Covid ICU ward....you might then shut up peddling your nonsense.
> 
> ICU staff in London hospitals are under massive pressure, they way you dismiss it frankly disgusts me.



C'mon now, we were doing so well not going for personal insults.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> I'm sorry but until they stop lying, don't expect the public to "move on"
> 
> 
> If Brexit is so great, why the need for lies?



Ok, that's cool, don't move on, I admire your commitment.
I suspect most will, people lack commitment, there really is only about 5% of the population which take a vague interest.

I'm back at work now guys, so I'm out. Happy new year and all that.


----------



## Trainee neophyte

@RobinBHM 

The failure to hold government to account is entirely a failure of journalism. Of course poiticians lie, of course politicians are psychopathic, deviant weirdos - the job positively attracts them. But when the journalists lie on behalf of the establishment, to enable the establishment, then the system has failed. We live in in a post democratic world, as shown so ably by the American election farce. Brexit may have been the very last "democratic" step that will ever be taken without resorting to violence, and Brexit won't actually be any real Brexit, as understood by the people who voted for it.

Shakespeare said "Kill all the lawyers", with good reason, but my vote would be to go for the journalists first. Today is Julian Assange 's day to learn if he will be extradited to face permanent incarceration or death for the evil crime of telling the truth. Anyone followed the insanity that is the "fair and balanced" coverage provided by so called "journalists"? It is their profession they are failing to protect, which makes it all the more laughable. Bought and paid for, the lot of them.

Oh, and I am sorry that the Oxfam report is so old. Luckily it worked a treat, and the EU doesn't do any product dumping any more. Phew.









European potato


According to a report by Toni Williams for Rural Life in New Zealand, an influx of European potato fries into New Zealand has already impacted on domestic growers, with less product planned for gro…




www.potatonewstoday.com













Anti-dumping sentiment expressed by the South African potato industry


In a news story published by iAfrica, titled “Urgent Action Needed To Protect SA




www.potatonewstoday.com





(2020 was the year of the potato, but pick a year, any year, and find the surplus product, and you will find the EU dumping it abroad.)


----------



## Misterdog

Jacob said:


> It's called "confirmation bias" but it doesn't alter the truth of whether or not a decision was a good one.



I've been researching exchange rates for a little project recently.

The USD V GBP. 

The year before we joined the EEC in 1973 you got $2.6 for your pound !!!!! 
(C. 1.4 today)

Yet no-one cherry picks that figure.

In February of this year the exchange rate dropped by 12 %.

Covid fears, no -one points that out.

It's all Brexit innit, to some people.
When people look beyond the end of their nose there is a whole world out there, with far more importance, to more people, than Brexit.





__





GBP to USD (all-time highs, lows & forecasts explained)







www.keycurrency.co.uk


----------



## sploo

Misterdog said:


> I've been researching exchange rates for a little project recently.
> 
> The USD V GBP.
> 
> The year before we joined the EEC in 1973 you got $2.6 for your pound !!!!!
> (C. 1.4 today)
> 
> Yet no-one cherry picks that figure.
> 
> In February of this year the exchange rate dropped by 12 %.
> 
> Covid fears, no -one points that out.
> 
> It's all Brexit innit, to some people.
> When people look beyond the end of their nose there is a whole world out there, with far more importance, to more people, than Brexit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBP to USD (all-time highs, lows & forecasts explained)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.keycurrency.co.uk


How things were in 1973 vs now as a reason to dismiss Brexit issues is not really relevant is it? I mean, how many Italian Lira did you get to the GBP in 1973 vs now (yes, I know Italy doesn't use the Lira anymore - that's my point about comparisons with 1973).

As it happens - I'm also looking into import related issues for some kit. The Danish seller can now give me a price (EUR, ex VAT) but what'll happen when it hits the UK is still not 100% understood. There is a UK Government web page that details import duties, but it "helpfully" tells me:

*The Brexit transition period has ended and new rules on tax and customs on goods sent from abroad now apply. This page is currently out of date.*

So, that clears things up then.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

Just out of interest:

- US inflation since 1973 is 508%
- UK inflation since 1973 is 963%

Just factoring inflation into the exchange rate - $2.6:£ x 508/963 = £1.37:£

Precisely what the rate is today! Completely unremarkable, yet a complete surprise!


----------



## Misterdog

sploo said:


> How things were in 1973 vs now as a reason to dismiss Brexit issues is not really relevant is it?



It shows how only looking at the exchange rate drop in 2016 is non-sense. The lack of understanding of exchange rate issues is as similar as the lack of understanding of trade in general.
A little knowledge and all that.
Though the little knowledge by the 2 sides has caused this whole fiasco.

The four years of argument prior to Brexit, followed by another 4 years of unravelling the leave process, will result in 8 years of having gone no where.
Merely to assuage the principles of some. 

Though that is the price for democracy.


----------



## Misterdog

Terry - Somerset said:


> Just out of interest:
> 
> - US inflation since 1973 is 508%
> - UK inflation since 1973 is 963%
> 
> Just factoring inflation into the exchange rate - $2.6:£ x 508/963 = £1.37:£
> 
> Precisely what the rate is today! Completely unremarkable, yet a complete surprise!



So joining the EU has caused an additional 455% inflation


----------



## Jacob

Misterdog said:


> So joining the EU has caused an additional 455% inflation


Thatcher more likely.


----------



## sploo

Misterdog said:


> It shows how only looking at the exchange rate drop in 2016 is non-sense. The lack of understanding of exchange rate issues is as similar as the lack of understanding of trade in general.
> A little knowledge and all that.
> Though the little knowledge by the 2 sides has caused this whole fiasco.
> 
> The four years of argument prior to Brexit, followed by another 4 years of unravelling the leave process, will result in 8 years of having gone no where.
> Merely to assuage the principles of some.
> 
> Though that is the price for democracy.


I'd say the large step in the exchange rate on the day the vote results were known would be a rather more accurate assessment. It has of course recovered somewhat since the deal was signed.


----------



## Rorschach

As someone who exports a lot of items to the US I am well in favour of a weak £.


----------



## sploo

Trainee neophyte said:


> The failure to hold government to account is entirely a failure of journalism. Of course poiticians lie, of course politicians are psychopathic, deviant weirdos - the job positively attracts them. But when the journalists lie on behalf of the establishment, to enable the establishment, then the system has failed. We live in in a post democratic world, as shown so ably by the American election farce. Brexit may have been the very last "democratic" step that will ever be taken without resorting to violence, and Brexit won't actually be any real Brexit, as understood by the people who voted for it.


I recently read an interesting article on the subject of modern reporting vs the propensity for untruth by politicians. It pointed out that, in this "real time" age, there's a race to be the first to report news, and as such media organisations essentially broadcast what has been said by politicians pretty much immediately.

Clearly there are those that have understood the power that can be gained by that; and the reality that by the time any fact checking is done they'll have moved on to the next untruth. By keeping a constant stream of interesting (but ultimately likely misleading) information in flow, there's never time for the previous lie to be debunked.

The suggestion in the article was that media organisations should essentially give a "time out" to politicians that lie - i.e. refuse to broadcast their new statements for a period of time (or until the politician apologies and corrects the statement).

Maybe, given the rapid advances in AI technology, we might be able to get to a stage where we have real time bulls**t detectors - that can fact check politicians literally as they speak. My preference would be to use the BS sign from the Airplane film


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> As someone who exports a lot of items to the US I am well in favour of a weak £.


Yea, I said "recovered", but other than some odd sense of pride in your currency being "strong", whether a strong or weak GBP is good entirely depends on the financial interests of the individual.


----------



## Misterdog

sploo said:


> but other than some odd sense of pride in your currency being "strong",



Though it could be the other currency that is strong/weak.
No currency has a fixed value and exchange always involves 2 currencies.


----------



## sploo

Misterdog said:


> Though it could be the other currency that is strong/weak.
> No currency has a fixed value and exchange always involves 2 currencies.


Absolutely. I guess the question is: is a strong or weak currency "better" for the majority? I suppose the majority are more likely import (i.e. purchase) than export, but the the total value of those individual imports may be low compared to commercial transactions (which will also include exports).


----------



## DennisCA

I'm reading some nonsense that says those who in the EU are supposed to charge the UK VAT rate and then hand it over to the UK and registering with the HM Revenue and Customs for this purpose (also not free). 

Needless to say a lot of businesses will not accept that and just decline UK orders. I hope there's some misunderstanding.


----------



## sploo

DennisCA said:


> I'm reading some nonsense that says those who in the EU are supposed to charge the UK VAT rate and then hand it over to the UK and registering with the HM Revenue and Customs for this purpose (also not free).
> 
> Needless to say a lot of businesses will not accept that and just decline UK orders. I hope there's some misunderstanding.


I think this is an EU-wide directive (that has been accepted into UK law); i.e. it's not a result of Brexit. Essentially, it's about trying to close loopholes. I read a good article on it a couple of days ago... which I now can't find


----------



## artie

I was domiciled for a short time in Ontario Canada in the middle to late 70s.
IIRC Provincial sales tax at that time was around 5%
The vendor charged the 5% and sent 3 or 3.5 % on to the authorities keeping the difference for his trouble.
I thought it a nifty idea.
It may have been Federal tax, it a long time ago.


----------



## billw

Misterdog said:


> Though it could be the other currency that is strong/weak.
> No currency has a fixed value and exchange always involves 2 currencies.



Although some currencies are pegged to others, eg the Singapore Dollar and Brunei Dollar are fixed at 1:1, the Hong Kong Dollar is pegged to the US Dollar at between 7.75 and 7.85 (intervention would occur if the rate moved further).


----------



## Droogs

DennisCA said:


> I'm reading some nonsense that says those who in the EU are supposed to charge the UK VAT rate and then hand it over to the UK and registering with the HM Revenue and Customs for this purpose (also not free).
> 
> Needless to say a lot of businesses will not accept that and just decline UK orders. I hope there's some misunderstanding.


I talked about this when the law was passed a few months ago and was told to stop fear mongering. It is nothing to do with the EU it is a purely British government bill and was needed to enable us to be even able to apply WTO rules in case of a no deal.
EU businesses can still sell you stuff and send it and not bother with observing the need to charge vat or pass it on as the EU can't enforce the law as it is a law that falls directly under British sovereignty, nothing to do with the EU. So You can buy stuff and pay for it and pay the vat at purchase but no way to guarantee the company will do the do and makes sure it gets through customs and no come back for you if it doesn't or the government, if they let it slip through.


----------



## Noel

DennisCA said:


> I'm reading some nonsense that says those who in the EU are supposed to charge the UK VAT rate and then hand it over to the UK and registering with the HM Revenue and Customs for this purpose (also not free).
> 
> Needless to say a lot of businesses will not accept that and just decline UK orders. I hope there's some misunderstanding.




As said, it's a GB "arrangement". And yes, many will not bother dealing with GB customers.
I saw this mentioned elsewhere, from one of your local retailers:









Scandinavian Outdoor







scandinavianoutdoor.com


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> As said, it's a GB "arrangement". And yes, many will not bother dealing with GB customers.
> I saw this mentioned elsewhere, from one of your local retailers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scandinavian Outdoor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scandinavianoutdoor.com


Interesting. So if an EU seller ships something to a UK address without charging VAT then what happens? Will it get stopped for UK import duty and UK VAT? Will it just be let through (on the assumption that the EU seller should have already charged the VAT)?

I suppose there are likely differences for small low value items that would slip under the radar, vs more valuable items that are coming in via a courier (who won't usually release the item without payment of charges).


----------



## billw

I doubt the tax authorities will assume anything! It’s an extra load of hassle for EU sellers so I do suspect some will cease U.K. deliveries but others won’t.


----------



## marcros

billw said:


> I doubt the tax authorities will assume anything! It’s an extra load of hassle for EU sellers so I do suspect some will cease U.K. deliveries but others won’t.



There is a BBC article that says pretty much that. 

BBC News - EU firms refuse UK deliveries over Brexit tax changes








EU firms refuse UK deliveries over Brexit tax changes


Some EU specialist firms stop delivering to the UK because of tax changes that took effect on 1 January.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## billw

It can’t be any worse than trying to get stuff sent to Gibraltar, which was in the EU but not the customs union.

“We can’t send things to Europe without charging VAT” erm yes you can.

“Since you’re not in Europe we have to charge the worldwide shipping fee.” But I’m in Europe?

Every parcel sent by post has to be collected in person and you had to show your ID and declare what it was. Sometimes they’d open it to check. Sometimes they’d make you pay duty and sometimes they just couldn’t be bothered to pick the calculator up.


----------



## sploo

I see from the Beeb article:

"_This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the UK are expected to register for UK VAT and account for it to HMRC if the sale value is less than €150 (£135)._"

That's a breathtakingly arrogant expectation; so I can see why retailers are telling the UK to fornicate off.

The stuff I'm being quoted for is well over that figure, and would be delivered by courier, so I guess the courier will treat it like an import from (say, the USA) and charge the duty and VAT. Well, usually import duty on the value of the item + shipping, plus VAT on the import duty charge, plus VAT on the item value, plus (usually) a handling charge (the fee for their time to charge you a fee)... and then (of course) the VAT on the handling charge (the tax on the fee for their time to charge you a fee).

I'm basking in the warm glow of reduced red tape, and freedom. Cough.


----------



## RobinBHM

Trainee neophyte said:


> The failure to hold government to account is entirely a failure of journalism



No, it's a failure of democracy.

Billionaire newspaper owners who live in tax havens give money to the political party that ensures they keep their tax havens. 

Until political parties are stopped from taking money in exchange for policy influence there can be no democracy.



Trainee neophyte said:


> Brexit may have been the very last "democratic" step


Driven by populist strategy.......and populism shares no connection with democracy.


----------



## RobinBHM

Trainee neophyte said:


> 20 was the year of the potato, but pick a year, any year, and find the surplus product, and you will find the EU dumping it abroad



Please can you tell me what that has to do with the EU.

The article doesn't mention EU....it says European potato fries.


----------



## Trainee neophyte

RobinBHM said:


> Please can you tell me what that has to do with the EU.
> 
> The article doesn't mention EU....it says European potato fries.


"In a news story published by iAfrica, titled “Urgent Action Needed To Protect SA’s Potato Industry“, it is said that South Africa is a key destination for processed potato product exports from the EU “where there is a history of dumping”. This is set to have a negative impact on the country’s agricultural sector and surrounding communities, according to the news article."

Am I reading the wrong article? The bit I looked at was "exports from the *EU* “where there is a _*history of dumping*""._


----------



## JohnPW

sploo said:


> I see from the Beeb article:
> 
> "_This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the UK are expected to register for UK VAT and account for it to HMRC if the sale value is less than €150 (£135)._"
> 
> That's a breathtakingly arrogant expectation; so I can see why retailers are telling the UK to fornicate off.
> 
> The stuff I'm being quoted for is well over that figure, and would be delivered by courier, so I guess the courier will treat it like an import from (say, the USA) and charge the duty and VAT. Well, usually import duty on the value of the item + shipping, plus VAT on the import duty charge, plus VAT on the item value, plus (usually) a handling charge (the fee for their time to charge you a fee)... and then (of course) the VAT on the handling charge (the tax on the fee for their time to charge you a fee).
> 
> I'm basking in the warm glow of reduced red tape, and freedom. Cough.




It's actually EU law that the UK has decided to keep, or had to.
They could have written:
"_This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the EU are expected to register, collect and pay EU VAT if the sale value is less than €150._"
and it'll be true.

Also, the exemption for low cost items has been scrapped under this law as well.


----------



## RobinBHM

Trainee neophyte said:


> "In a news story published by iAfrica, titled “Urgent Action Needed To Protect SA’s Potato Industry“, it is said that South Africa is a key destination for processed potato product exports from the EU “where there is a history of dumping”. This is set to have a negative impact on the country’s agricultural sector and surrounding communities, according to the news article."
> 
> Am I reading the wrong article? The bit I looked at was "exports from the *EU* “where there is a _*history of dumping*""._


And what does it have to do with the EU? 
Is it EU directive?

Maybe I am wrong, but I though goods only went somewhere when a buyer orders them.

So are you saying companies in SA and NZ are choosing to buy Potato fries from EU rather than a domestic supplier?

In which case that's a commercial decision nothing to do with the EU......why aren't you complaining about the NZ and SA companies buying cheaper abroad rather than supporting domestic farmers



It's funny how you complain the EU is protectionist and yet here you complaining of insufficient protectionism.


----------



## Noel

JohnPW said:


> It's actually EU law that the UK has decided to keep, or had to.
> They could have written:
> "_This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the EU are expected to register, collect and pay EU VAT if the sale value is less than €150._"
> and it'll be true.
> 
> Also, the exemption for low cost items has been scraped under this as well.



Indeed, the Low-Value Consignment Stock relief has been binned. 
Another thing I noticed is that reclaiming VAT on expenses from EU states will now move to a paper based system and done on an individual country basis. Globally leading the red tape race.....


----------



## Trainee neophyte

RobinBHM said:


> It's funny how you complain the EU is protectionist and yet here you complaining of insufficient protectionism.


The EU subsidises it's agricultural production. This causes excess production. The surplus is "dumped" outside the EU, causing significant hardship in countries where the farmers don't get subsidies, but have to compete with subsidised food. I would prefer, and most farmers I know would also prefer, that the subsidies were stopped so the market wasn't so squewed, both inside and outside the EU. I'm not calling for more protection, or more legislation, or more government. Quite the opposite.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

The common agricultural policy started in 1962 mainly to:

support farmers and improve agricultural productivity, ensuring a stable supply of affordable food;
keep the rural economy alive by promoting jobs in farming, agri-foods industries and associated sectors.
This meant state subsidies, in part due to concerns over food security following WW2 and then the cold war. Later we had butter mountains, and wine lakes as the EU bought surplusses and stored them.

Only fairly recently has common sense prevailed - sell it at knock down prices rather than pay to store it until it is ultimately unfit for human consumption.

Not that it should concern any of us in the UK now we have left - Boris would no doubt be very happy that another Brexit benefit has emerged!


----------



## sploo

JohnPW said:


> It's actually EU law that the UK has decided to keep, or had to.
> They could have written:
> "_This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the EU are expected to register, collect and pay EU VAT if the sale value is less than €150._"
> and it'll be true.
> 
> Also, the exemption for low cost items has been scrapped under this law as well.


I thought it was, but I was confused as to why EU sellers were unhappy with the situation re selling to the UK.

Ironic that a rule to get non-EU sellers to collect the VAT now hits EU sellers shipping to the (non-EU) UK.


----------



## Jake

JohnPW said:


> It's actually EU law that the UK has decided to keep, or had to.
> They could have written: "_This essentially means that overseas retailers sending goods to the EU are expected to register, collect and pay EU VAT if the sale value is less than €150._"
> and it'll be true. Also, the exemption for low cost items has been scrapped under this law as well.



Participation by the foreign seller in the EU version is voluntary - they can just ship it and allow VAT to be charged in customs. If they want to offer a slicker speedier more convenient service, they can register to charge the VAT and account for it themselves.

The new UK one purports to be mandatory.


----------



## JohnPW

Jake said:


> Participation by the foreign seller in the EU version is voluntary - they can just ship it and allow VAT to be charged in customs. If they want to offer a slicker speedier more convenient service, they can register to charge the VAT and account for it themselves.
> 
> The new UK one purports to be mandatory.



Voluntary would be more sensible.

Although the following is not very clear and "voluntary" is not used.

From:








Modernising VAT for cross-border e-commerce


Latest news, Mini One Stop Shop (MOSS), The VAT e-commerce package




ec.europa.eu






> An import scheme will be created covering distance sales of goods imported from third countries or territories to customers in the EU up to a value of EUR 150.
> Unlike today, when the import scheme is used, the seller will charge and collect the VAT at the point of sale to EU customers and declare and pay that VAT globally to the Member State of identification in the One Stop Shop (OSS). These goods will then benefit from a VAT exemption upon importation, allowing a fast release at customs.
> The introduction of the import scheme goes hand in hand with the abolition of the current VAT exemption for goods in small consignment of a value of up to EUR 22. This is also in line with the commitment to apply the destination principle for VAT.
> 
> Where the import OSS is not used, a second simplification mechanism will be available for imports. Import VAT will be collected from customers by the customs declarant (e.g. postal operator, courier firm, customs agents) which will pay it to the customs authorities via a monthly payment.


----------



## Jake

It's the bullet point at the end of your clip.


----------



## billw

I'll be interested to see how mandatory it is when stuff starts piling up at customs clearance centres because it's been sent without doing the VAT paperwork. What they going to do? Send it back? It's the only option, because asking the importer to pay up is a loophole in the entire process.

And remember this scheme is global, not just the EU. There's surely going to be people in some countries sending stuff over who haven't the faintest idea about the rules.


----------



## RobinBHM

Trainee neophyte said:


> The EU subsidises it's agricultural production. This causes excess production. The surplus is "dumped" outside the EU, causing significant hardship in countries where the farmers don't get subsidies, but have to compete with subsidised food. I would prefer, and most farmers I know would also prefer, that the subsidies were stopped so the market wasn't so squewed, both inside and outside the EU. I'm not calling for more protection, or more legislation, or more government. Quite the opposite.



The "potato dumping" articles you link show it has nothing to do with subsidies.
EU distributors have excess stock due to Covid and have lowered prices to try and clear it.

If you want to talk about agricultural subsidies you need to compare EU with other countries and other considerations.....it's a complex subject, rather more involved than "EU bad".


EU subsidies are accepted by WTO

This "decoupling" of subsidies means they are accepted in the "Blue box" category of subsidies in the WTO Agreement on Agriculture negotiated at the Uruguay Round, in line with international agreements to reduce market-distorting subsidies and price controls


----------



## bryan267

sploo said:


> How things were in 1973 vs now as a reason to dismiss Brexit issues is not really relevant is it? I mean, how many Italian Lira did you get to the GBP in 1973 vs now (yes, I know Italy doesn't use the Lira anymore - that's my point about comparisons with 1973).
> 
> As it happens - I'm also looking into import related issues for some kit. The Danish seller can now give me a price (EUR, ex VAT) but what'll happen when it hits the UK is still not 100% understood. There is a UK Government web page that details import duties, but it "helpfully" tells me:
> 
> *The Brexit transition period has ended and new rules on tax and customs on goods sent from abroad now apply. This page is currently out of date.*
> 
> So, that clears things up then.


After that there is a link that tells you to go to the uptodate page, or there was for me, if your using the link from earlier in this chat then yes it is now out of date


----------



## Jake

billw said:


> I'll be interested to see how mandatory it is when stuff starts piling up at customs clearance centres because it's been sent without doing the VAT paperwork. What they going to do? Send it back? It's the only option, because asking the importer to pay up is a loophole in the entire process.



Agree, they are doing it because they do not have the capacity to process the VAT at the border. They'll have to make a choice as to whether to process the VAT on the lower priced stuff in customs clearance as well as the higher value stuff, just waive them through VAT-free, or rejecting the shipments/binning them. The first seems more likely, but it will take time and money to get the extra capacity - the reality may be this is only really intended as a stop-gap in the knowledge it is unenforceable. If they just let them through without VAT, it's a big hit for the revenue (which is no longer gathering VAT on exports flowing the other way) and a massive 20% price advantage for EU retail exporters to the UK over domestic suppliers. Quite a challenge and no surprise at all it has been fudged rather than risen to (as yet).


----------



## sploo

bryan267 said:


> After that there is a link that tells you to go to the uptodate page, or there was for me, if your using the link from earlier in this chat then yes it is now out of date


The only update link I found at the time dealt mostly with travel, rather than import rules and tariffs. Unless I missed something?

EDIT: Yea, it looks as though the page I previously found has been updated with a new link. Searching through (what I understand to be) the correct tariff pages, all the relevant codes I'm looking at list VAT (understandably) but a "Third country duty" of 0%. Some years ago I imported some machinery from the US and the details were pretty clear (4% duty, and that's what I was charged). So... to anyone that knows more about this... am I right in thinking that for these (audio parts related) items coming from an EU nation I should only be charged 20% VAT (plus probably some handling charges)?

Tariff page here: Commodity code 8518900000: Parts - The Online Trade Tariff - GOV.UK


----------



## Peterm1000

VAT doesn't have anything to do with Brexit - I think. It's a tax on goods and services and the tax falls due where the "supply" happens. If you buy something in a German store, it is subject to German VAT. If you buy it in the UK, it is subject to UK VAT. The difference (I believe) is that there are no import / export duties due on goods travelling within the EU (and the UK is no longer part of the EU so the thresholds have changed). If as a business you buy something from a German retailer to be delivered to the UK, it is subject to UK VAT (as it was before Brexit). The German retailer can either charge you UK VAT using their UK VAT registration OR they can invoice you reverse charge where you use your own UK VAT registration to bill yourself UK VAT. If you are an individual, they need to charge UK VAT to be allowed to sell to you. If they don't the goods can be stopped by customs. Given the vast amount of stuff that gets shipped from China via Ebay without any VAT being charged, I think there are some loopholes, but if you do this, you are taking a risk.


----------



## sploo

Peterm1000 said:


> VAT doesn't have anything to do with Brexit - I think. It's a tax on goods and services and the tax falls due where the "supply" happens. If you buy something in a German store, it is subject to German VAT. If you buy it in the UK, it is subject to UK VAT. The difference (I believe) is that there are no import / export duties due on goods travelling within the EU (and the UK is no longer part of the EU so the thresholds have changed). If as a business you buy something from a German retailer to be delivered to the UK, it is subject to UK VAT (as it was before Brexit). The German retailer can either charge you UK VAT using their UK VAT registration OR they can invoice you reverse charge where you use your own UK VAT registration to bill yourself UK VAT. If you are an individual, they need to charge UK VAT to be allowed to sell to you. If they don't the goods can be stopped by customs. Given the vast amount of stuff that gets shipped from China via Ebay without any VAT being charged, I think there are some loopholes, but if you do this, you are taking a risk.


Yep - understood. The Danish seller would ship without Danish VAT and the import would be handled by FedEx (so they'll do the relevant customs processing). Paying the UK VAT is expected, and fine; I just didn't want to get any nasty surprises whereby it turns out I also have to pay some (large) percentage of import duty on the value of the items + shipping. As far as I understood, imports from the EU into the UK should be 0% rated, so it should just be the 20% VAT plus any handling charges by the courier?


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> As far as I understood, imports from the EU into the UK should be 0% rated, so it should just be the 20% VAT plus any handling charges by the courier?



That's how I understand it.


----------



## Lefley

We have this tax thing in Canada. Sort of. We live on the Alberta/ British columhia border. Anything we buy in bc is subject to bc tax. But if we order from alberta and get it shipped to bc there is no sales tax. As Alberta has no sales tax. Now if we buy a car in Alberta anc then register it in bc. We get hit with a tax at the dmv. But small stuff no. A lot of house builders buy material in Alberta and drive then to bc. They are suppose to declare and pay tax if going into a bc building. But most have projects in Alberta also so they have a price advantage unless they get to big and get audited.


----------



## Jake

Peterm1000 said:


> VAT doesn't have anything to do with Brexit - I think. It's a tax on goods and services and the tax falls due where the "supply" happens. If you buy something in a German store, it is subject to German VAT. If you buy it in the UK, it is subject to UK VAT.



That was the case, because we were in the EU. It used to be the case we would pay German VAT (19% or whatever it is) if we bought from a German store, and a German would pay UK VAT (20% or whatever) if they bought from a UK store. 

Now, if we buy it from a German store it is German VAT-free but subject to UK VAT on import. And vice versa.

It's the fact that the VAT on an import from or export to the EU now needs to be accounted for somehow to the buyer's domestic tax authority rather than the seller's tax authority that causes the additional red-tape and bureaucracy.


----------



## sploo

Jake said:


> That was the case, because we were in the EU. Now, if we buy it from a German store it is German VAT-free but subject to UK VAT on import.


That's my understanding (at least, based on the quotes I've had).

To be balanced; it's worth noting that, for example, Danish VAT is currently 25%. So with the UK at 20% it's possible that a moderately valuable purchase may end up cheaper than before Brexit (assuming there's little or no extra import fees on top of the 20% UK VAT). If any import/processing fees are added to small value purchases then that'll likely add on more than the 5% saving in the VAT difference.


----------



## Jake

Yes, quite so. Even more so if the UK cannot be bothered to collect VAT at all on low value imports (but then UK retail would be killed by that and the lost tax would have to be made up from some other taxation).


----------



## JohnPW

Jake said:


> It's the bullet point at the end of your clip.



That section is not very clear:


> Where the import OSS is not used, a second simplification mechanism will be available for imports. Import VAT will be collected from customers by the customs declarant (e.g. postal operator, courier firm, customs agents) which will pay it to the customs authorities via a monthly payment.



Where it says "Where the import OSS is not used", maybe it's referring to consignments of over 150 Euros:



> Distance sales of goods imported from third countries and third territories in consignments of an intrinsic value of maximum EUR 150


----------



## Jake

JohnPW said:


> Where it says "Where the import OSS is not used", maybe it's referring to consignments of over 150 Euros:



Yeah OK there's a little ambiguity there, but that is not how the EU version works. The seller is permitted to register for the V-OSS, and then can only use it in any case for single consignments worth under €150. Everything else is outside the V-OSS (seller who has not registered for the scheme, or a registered user who is sending a consignment worth over €150). There are no 'shalls' about the use of the V-OSS, it is all "mays", and very much incentive based in terms of simplifying trading.

The only bit which is more mandatory for foreign sellers is if they are third party sellers on an online platform based in the EU (say Amazon). Amazon will be forced to apply VAT on their sales and account for it for them.


----------



## billw

Jake said:


> The only bit which is more mandatory for foreign sellers is if they are third party sellers on an online platform based in the EU (say Amazon). Amazon will be forced to apply VAT on their sales and account for it for them.



A lot of Amazon Marketplace sellers are VAT registered anyway, especially the Chinese ones.


----------



## Yorkieguy

In saying that BoJo has messed things up big-style, the corollary to that is that the country would be in far better shape had Jeremy Corby and his cohort - Dianne Abbot, Rebecca 'Wrong Daily', John McDonnel, Angela Raynor et al had been swept into power with a landslide majority. I really don't think so. There's a reason that Labour lost not one, but the last three General Elections and it's simple - you don't give the keys back to they guy that crashed your car. Corbyn as PM and McDonell as Chancellor (instead if Rishi Sunak)? Errm..... 

Nothing will change.


----------



## ivan

Ali Express in China is now adding UK VAT to low cost orders. Orders over ~£135 are VAT free and the buyer will face a charge from the carrier or post office for VAT, handling, and any duty. Order from a foreign business that is ignorant of our wonderful scheme, and a consignment of any value (no more freebies) will attract VAT, handling, and duty.


----------



## RobinBHM

Yorkieguy said:


> In saying that BoJo has messed things up big-style, the corollary to that is that the country would be in far better shape had Jeremy Corby and his cohort - Dianne Abbot, Rebecca 'Wrong Daily', John McDonnel, Angela Raynor et al had been swept into power with a landslide majority. I really don't think so. There's a reason that Labour lost not one, but the last three General Elections and it's simple - you don't give the keys back to they guy that crashed your car. Corbyn as PM and McDonell as Chancellor (instead if Rishi Sunak)? Errm.....
> 
> Nothing will change.



They didn't crash the car.....there was a global financial crash enabled by deregulation.

Not that either party has been great on the economy....they've both been around about the same. 
It's an old trope one side is good and the other side isn't on economy.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

Problems with imports and exports to EU was expected. 

Negotiation was shambolic - I can only assume leaders on both sides wanted to deny giving politicians and interest groups an opportunity for proper scrutiny and possible delay. 

No one knew what the rules would be even a week before the transition period ended. Unsurprisingly the complexity of unwinding 40+ years of free trade has thrown up the completely stupid and ill thought through.

A more balanced judgement of the impacts should be made in a couple of months at the earliest. The UK and EU are clearly able to discuss and can modify detailed regulation and documentation. 

These observations do not evidence my support for Brexit (the contrary is true). But to make a judgement after only five days is premature.


----------



## RobinBHM

Terry - Somerset said:


> But to make a judgement after only five days is premature



Anybody making claims of:

"oh look, there's no chaos, everything is fine"
OR
"Oh look, theres no benefits

Are just posturing, it's meaningless.


The reality of Brexit, good or bad, won't be known for years.....because Brexit has nothing to do with the emotive slogans of sovereignty or freedom which count for nothing but everything to do with the trading environment for commerce.

Business will adapt to its new business environment of UK outside of EU....and that will take time before a pattern becomes clear - I would say 5 to 10 years.


----------



## Rorschach

RobinBHM said:


> Anybody making claims of:
> 
> "oh look, there's no chaos, everything is fine"
> OR
> "Oh look, theres no benefits
> 
> Are just posturing, it's meaningless.
> 
> 
> The reality of Brexit, good or bad, won't be known for years.....because Brexit has nothing to do with the emotive slogans of sovereignty or freedom which count for nothing but everything to do with the trading environment for commerce.
> 
> Business will adapt to its new business environment of UK outside of EU....and that will take time before a pattern becomes clear - I would say 5 to 10 years.



Umm, I was attacked when I said this including by people like yourself? You have changed your tune, not that I am complaining, it's a pragmatic stance to take.


----------



## jcassidy

RobinBHM said:


> Brexit has nothing to do with the emotive slogans of sovereignty or freedom which count for nothing



And yet formed the basis for both the BREXIT campaign and the negotiations... sovereignty sovereignty sovereignty, like a stuck record. 
What about trade? "Sovereignty over our own affairs!!" 
What about fishing? "Sovereignty over our own fish!!!" 
What about travel? "Sovereignty over our own borders!!! Oh, and £350m a week for the NHS."


----------



## billw

jcassidy said:


> And yet formed the basis for both the BREXIT campaign and the negotiations... sovereignty sovereignty sovereignty, like a stuck record.
> What about trade? "Sovereignty over our own affairs!!"
> What about fishing? "Sovereignty over our own fish!!!"
> What about travel? "Sovereignty over our own borders!!! Oh, and £350m a week for the NHS."



I always felt that the sovereignty thing was like a dog chasing a car. What happens when dog catches up with car? Hasn't got a clue what to do with it. Just wanted it, and now.....dunno. 

I asked my mum the same question because she's always harping on about it - she hadn't got a clue she just didn't want to be ruled by Germany apparently. Didn't fight in the war for that etc etc.


----------



## sploo

billw said:


> I always felt that the sovereignty thing was like a dog chasing a car. What happens when dog catches up with car? Hasn't got a clue what to do with it. Just wanted it, and now.....dunno.
> 
> I asked my mum the same question because she's always harping on about it - she hadn't got a clue she just didn't want to be ruled by Germany apparently. Didn't fight in the war for that etc etc.


Based on the last few years of Brexit arguments: the first rule of Sovereignty Club is... to talk about sovereignty you don't know what sovereignty means (in the context being discussed).


----------



## Peterm1000

Jake said:


> That was the case, because we were in the EU. It used to be the case we would pay German VAT (19% or whatever it is) if we bought from a German store, and a German would pay UK VAT (20% or whatever) if they bought from a UK store.
> 
> Now, if we buy it from a German store it is German VAT-free but subject to UK VAT on import. And vice versa.
> 
> It's the fact that the VAT on an import from or export to the EU now needs to be accounted for somehow to the buyer's domestic tax authority rather than the seller's tax authority that causes the additional red-tape and bureaucracy.



It's a question of place of supply... You can travel to Germany and buy in a German store and pay 19% VAT (which I believe you can get refunded on exit at an airport - never tried). Then you bring it to the UK and declare it to customs who will charge you import duty. However, if the German company sells to you and ownership of the goods transfers when you are in the UK, it is subject to UK VAT. Now it's much clearer that the place of supply is the UK and not Germany.


----------



## billw

Peterm1000 said:


> It's a question of place of supply... You can travel to Germany and buy in a German store and pay 19% VAT (which I believe you can get refunded on exit at an airport - never tried). Then you bring it to the UK and declare it to customs who will charge you import duty. However, if the German company sells to you and ownership of the goods transfers when you are in the UK, it is subject to UK VAT. Now it's much clearer that the place of supply is the UK and not Germany.



Is that right? I thought you'd have to declare it for export from the EU and get a tax refund/exemption, and then you'd be liable for UK on import?

Whether you've paid EU VAT is neither here nor there as far as the UK taxman is concerned any more.


----------



## Spectric

Hi

This topic must have impacted what woodworking projects people have done recently unless you are finding the workshop to cold. It is strange that we spent all this effort to escape the EU and now we are looking at issues with importing from the EU, does it really mater. If you look at items that are around you, you will notice that they are mostly products from asia and the EU was probably just taxing us because they were not EU products so we must have a saving. We will always be taxed in the UK because any government needs money to fund pointless projects like Trident, HS2 and Hinckley C, and now there is also the massive debt created by the virus. I have always admired German engineering but that is now being sacrificed in the name of profit and we now have many more countries that we can trade with, without incurring the taxes and wrath of the EU. This mess should not have dragged on for so long, we should have reminded the french about Agincourt, Crecy, Poltiers, Trafalgar and Waterloo plus the fact that if it was not for us English they would all be speaking German now and they should be glad we want to trade with them.


----------



## jcassidy

Spectric said:


> not for us English they would all be speaking German now and they should be glad we want to trade with them.



I think you meant, if it wasn't for the Russians and Americans?

I mean, if I recall correctly, the Germans had ~60 divisions in Western Europe on D-Day, and somewhere in excess of 200 divisions trying to stop the Russians advancing on Berlin.

And before anyone says anything, my grandfather fought in Burma!


----------



## clogs

top marks Spectric......
u wanna try living with them......hahaha.....
whole different ball game there.....
Generally the low end workers where I lived (rural Charente) want to leave the EU.....
it's the suits at the top and bankers that want to stay......wonder why......??
what about the motorway built in the sea on FR. Reunion Island...€1.7 billion....where did that money come from....??????
it's a bit like the HS2 monster...the more money thats invold the easier it is to cream off the top.....
I wanted Brexit and I live in the EU.....it's not for our benefit .....think long term.....it's for the childeren....


----------



## Jake

Peterm1000 said:


> It's a question of place of supply... You can travel to Germany and buy in a German store and pay 19% VAT (which I believe you can get refunded on exit at an airport - never tried). Then you bring it to the UK and declare it to customs who will charge you import duty. However, if the German company sells to you and ownership of the goods transfers when you are in the UK, it is subject to UK VAT. Now it's much clearer that the place of supply is the UK and not Germany.



I don't know whether you are talking about now or when we were within the EU VAT scheme. That's closer to the current situation, although as we have an FTA of sorts there is no duty payable to customs. It's got no resemblance to how EU VAT worked here and continues to work there.


----------



## jcassidy

Here is plain explanation of the entire tax-back thing. Main condition is you have to have proof the thing was exported, and you have to have proof that you are in fact a non-EU resident...

Tax Free Purchases for Non EU Travellers


----------



## Terry - Somerset

I don't understand the fuss being made about VAT on trade with EU.

It is now no different to non-EU countries. VAT is due on the cost of the goods + shipping at 20%. There are some special rules for goods below £135 which may affect items bought by forum members.

Initial problems are no surprise - wrong documentation, a lack of documentation, failure to read or apply guidance etc etc. 

I would expect these to be resolved in the coming weeks - trade with non-EU nations seems to work fine. Extra admin costs money and is a sad consequence of having voted to leave.

That the EU has upper and lower rate limits, I assume, is to limit cross border traffic taking advantage of different rates. Of no interest to most woodworkers, but the "tampon tax" was a consequence of this approach!!


----------



## billw

Spectric said:


> pointless projects like Trident, HS2 and Hinckley C



Trident - expensive yes, controversial yes, pointless no. MAD should make anyone think thrice about trying to nuke us. It wouldn't stop a complete lunatic no.

HS2 - trains in this country are absolute cack. Will it inevitably benefit London more than anyone else? Well there's that potential. Is it expensive? Yes. Pointless? It facilitates rapid movement of people. I don't want to sound like I'm noshing on Xi's privates, but the trains in China are incredible. 350km/h and lie-flat seats in first class. Admittedly you face the death penalty for sitting in the wrong seat but hey ho. Northern Rail is still running rolling stock that's basically a bus on two bogeys. First world that. First world.

Hinckley C. Maybe we can do without nuclear but a prominent American thinks that windmills cause cancer and kills large birds. Much like smoking for the working class.


----------



## clogs

apart from the envoiro damage HS2 will do....
for business use only it'd be cheaper for the government to supply free airline tickets to the north
instead of building same.....
But of course it'll make nice jobs for the "BOY'S" and OH the fiddles......

Not sure if it's true but isn't Hinckley getting some dated design instead of a more modern unit....
idiots in charge again.....I fear.....


----------



## Noel

Terry - Somerset said:


> I don't understand the fuss being made about VAT on trade with EU.
> 
> It is now no different to non-EU countries. VAT is due on the cost of the goods + shipping at 20%. There are some special rules for goods below £135 which may affect items bought by forum members.
> 
> Initial problems are no surprise - wrong documentation, a lack of documentation, failure to read or apply guidance etc etc.
> 
> I would expect these to be resolved in the coming weeks - trade with non-EU nations seems to work fine. Extra admin costs money and is a sad consequence of having voted to leave.
> 
> *That the EU has upper and lower rate limits, I assume, is to limit cross border traffic taking advantage of different rates. *Of no interest to most woodworkers, but the "tampon tax" was a consequence of this approach!!




No, upper and lower limits reflect the admin and cost to collect versus value. Nothing to do with "cross border traffic taking advantage of different rates". That was the whole point of a SM/CU.


----------



## Spectric

billw said:


> Trident - expensive yes, controversial yes, pointless no. MAD should make anyone think thrice about trying to nuke us. It wouldn't stop a complete lunatic no.


I think the days of the cold war are over in as much as all out world war 3, will Trident stop terrorism, Cyber attacks, Novichoc or the current virus? The concept of MAD amongst the major players is over, they all realise there is no winner and so the real threat is from terrorism & other lunatics, so Trident is not going to help. China is waging an economic war and using it's wealth to buy into every small impoverished country it can so war is not in their interest. By us having Trident it makes us a threat and therefore a target, we live on a little island that Russia could easily vapourise so the government is putting the people at risk by remaining in what is just a game of brinkmanship and being a member of the nuclear club. So lets say that we really must have this so called nuclear detterent, why have the subs, an expensive part of the program that has to be manned and maintained plus puts our oceans at risk if it goes wrong. All you need is the ability to launch the missiles into the upper atmosphere and detonate, the fall out will wipe out all life over a period of a few years so rather than instant death you actually promise the attacker a slow and lingering death which is probably worse than being instantly cremated in a flash.


----------



## Peterm1000

Jake said:


> I don't know whether you are talking about now or when we were within the EU VAT scheme. That's closer to the current situation, although as we have an FTA of sorts there is no duty payable to customs. It's got no resemblance to how EU VAT worked here and continues to work there.



I believe Tax generally has nothing to do with the EU. There are tax treaties between countries and the EU is not a country. What has changed is whether something is considered an import or not. Previously you could buy something in Germany and bring it to the UK and not consider it an import. You would pay VAT in Germany because that is where title transferred. Now, you could still buy the item in Germany, pay German VAT, reclaim that at the border, import it into the UK, pay UK taxes on import. Or the German retailer can ship it to you in the UK, pay any import duties and charge you UK VAT (or - if you have your own VAT number have you charge yourself UK VAT). The only difference to pre-Brexit is the import. VAT works exactly the same way. The UK or other countries may require you to have a local VAT agent, but that is a whole other can of worms...

So the upshot of this is that you can still buy from France, Germany, wherever... but now it will be like buying from Canada or the US or Ghana or anywhere else in the world. Some retailers will be willing to do that and others won't.

But all of that extra hassle is more than offset by the smug realisation that your passport is now blue (back to the days of the empire and all that). I'm sure you will agree


----------



## Ollie78

Yesterday I was going to order some 3d printing filament from prusa (they are in czeck republic) ....Nope. 
Currently not taking orders from the UK due to brexit. 
The guy in the unit next to me is having similar issues, he is a manufacturer and distributor of paragliding stuff. Many of his suppliers have stopped being able to send stuff.
The main excuse is not that they are unwilling to send it. But rather that the couriers won't deliver it. 
They don't know what to do, effectively they are having to be customs agents and they don't want to do it.

Ollie


----------



## sploo

Ollie78 said:


> Yesterday I was going to order some 3d printing filament from prusa (they are in czeck republic) ....Nope.
> Currently not taking orders from the UK due to brexit.
> The guy in the unit next to me is having similar issues, he is a manufacturer and distributor of paragliding stuff. Many of his suppliers have stopped being able to send stuff.
> The main excuse is not that they are unwilling to send it. But rather that the couriers won't deliver it.
> They don't know what to do, effectively they are having to be customs agents and they don't want to do it.
> 
> Ollie


Hopefully it'll be worked out in time. Even the Danish seller I'm talking to (who is willing to ship via FedEx) is saying that they can't give me any guarantees as to what'll happen at the UK end (which is fair enough).

In other news... looking at the USA overnight I see we're sadly getting the inevitable endgame of years of populist deception - namely the expression of built up rage as reality slowly pokes its way through the fog of BS.


----------



## Noho12C

Spectric said:


> ...we should have reminded the french about Agincourt, Crecy, Poltiers, Trafalgar and Waterloo ...



really... 
that was a long time ago you know, the world has changed a bit since then.



Spectric said:


> if it was not for us English they would all be speaking German now



Sure, we all saw how brits managed Dunkirk, Market Garden, Caen, etc
As someone else mentioned, i believe US and Russians did play a fairly big part.

I think it's a pity to see the UK leave, and was pretty sad after the brexit vote. However, during the past few years, I've heard more and more british colleagues blaming EU (and France particularly) for everything (economy, immigration, housing market, weather forecast, whatever-you-dont-like) and bragging at how they "saved our asses" at Dunkirk (which is a bit surprising if you read a bit about it).
Anyway, I guess if the Brexit doesnt give the expected results in few years, EU (and France) will be the one to be blamed.


----------



## Braddersmd

Ollie78 said:


> Yesterday I was going to order some 3d printing filament from prusa (they are in czeck republic) ....Nope.
> Currently not taking orders from the UK due to brexit.
> The guy in the unit next to me is having similar issues, he is a manufacturer and distributor of paragliding stuff. Many of his suppliers have stopped being able to send stuff.
> The main excuse is not that they are unwilling to send it. But rather that the couriers won't deliver it.
> They don't know what to do, effectively they are having to be customs agents and they don't want to do it.
> 
> Ollie



The most interesting thing about your post is that those prepared to find out how to do it will gain on both sides (EU and UK exporters), and those that find it all too much will lose trade. I spent most of my business life importing and exporting both to/from ROW and EU. The difference is simply one of process. Export represented approx. 10% of our turnover, and I would not have thrown that away lightly. Someone will very quickly take up the slack of businesses unable or unwilling to take it on. 

The idea that couriers are unwilling to send goods outside the EU is peculiar. Have the suppliers tried another freight agent? Maybe they mean their local equivalent of the post office - but even they will have international shipping departments.

Makes me wonder if there is a market for an intermediary import agent........


----------



## Ollie78

Braddersmd said:


> The most interesting thing about your post is that those prepared to find out how to do it will gain on both sides (EU and UK exporters), and those that find it all too much will lose trade. I spent most of my business life importing and exporting both to/from ROW and EU. The difference is simply one of process. Export represented approx. 10% of our turnover, and I would not have thrown that away lightly. Someone will very quickly take up the slack of businesses unable or unwilling to take it on.
> 
> The idea that couriers are unwilling to send goods outside the EU is peculiar. Have the suppliers tried another freight agent? Maybe they mean their local equivalent of the post office - but even they will have international shipping departments.
> 
> Makes me wonder if there is a market for an intermediary import agent........



I agree "peculiar" is an understatement. Especially as this has been going on for years. I would have expected there to be a certain amount of readiness.
Apparently the port of Rotterdam has spent a vast amount on the "brexit problem" more than the UK government at one stage.

I guess until the "agreement was published" no one had a clue exactly what the procedure would be.
I thing once the couriers have sorted a simple method everything will be back to normal. 
Perhaps in the interim a specialist import agent could make a fortune.

Ollie


----------



## Peterm1000

Reading the posts about struggling to get couriers to deliver to the UK right now... A thought. If you were a Romanian / Polish, Hungarian trucker, would you want to travel to the UK right now? Not only is the UK known as a plague island, but just before Christmas we had thousands of them locked in truck parks without proper access to water, food or sanitation for several days I believe. I suspect in 3 months everything will be much easier.


----------



## Ollie78

Peterm1000 said:


> Reading the posts about struggling to get couriers to deliver to the UK right now... A thought. If you were a Romanian / Polish, Hungarian trucker, would you want to travel to the UK right now? Not only is the UK known as a plague island, but just before Christmas we had thousands of them locked in truck parks without proper access to water, food or sanitation for several days I believe. I suspect in 3 months everything will be much easier.



This is a very good point, I certainly don't envy those working in the logistics industry right now. 
I suggest large "goods transportation cannons" at Calais and Folkestone with enormous catch nets either side. 
I am sure the army engineers would have a great time with this.

Ollie


----------



## sploo

Peterm1000 said:


> Reading the posts about struggling to get couriers to deliver to the UK right now... A thought. If you were a Romanian / Polish, Hungarian trucker, would you want to travel to the UK right now? Not only is the UK known as a plague island, but just before Christmas we had thousands of them locked in truck parks without proper access to water, food or sanitation for several days I believe. I suspect in 3 months everything will be much easier.


It's what happens when you have a nation run by malevolent incompetence. It's nothing to do with being "for" or "against" their particular political/social/economic beliefs, the issue is that we have a government consisting of the most spectacularly unsuited for leadership. E.g. the "genius" of waiting until all the kids had gone back to school for one, effing, day... (just enough time to share any bugs with one another)... and then only locking everything down at 8pm on a Monday night. The amount of work that alone generated for schools and after care providers (who were having to work through the night to "fix" Tuesday) is staggering.


----------



## sploo

Ollie78 said:


> This is a very good point, I certainly don't envy those working in the logistics industry right now.
> I suggest large "goods transportation cannons" at Calais and Folkestone with enormous catch nets either side.
> I am sure the army engineers would have a great time with this.
> 
> Ollie


Could we not aim those cannons into the middle of the Atlantic, and offload some of the chancers and charlatans that got us into this mess?


----------



## jcassidy

sploo said:


> Could we not aim those cannons into the middle of the Atlantic, and offload some of the chancers and charlatans that got us into this mess?



Thte EU has rules about polluting the water.


----------



## Jonm

Spectric said:


> Hi
> 
> This topic must have impacted what woodworking projects people have done recently unless you are finding the workshop to cold. It is strange that we spent all this effort to escape the EU and now we are looking at issues with importing from the EU, does it really mater. If you look at items that are around you, you will notice that they are mostly products from asia and the EU was probably just taxing us because they were not EU products so we must have a saving. We will always be taxed in the UK because any government needs money to fund pointless projects like Trident, HS2 and Hinckley C, and now there is also the massive debt created by the virus. I have always admired German engineering but that is now being sacrificed in the name of profit and we now have many more countries that we can trade with, without incurring the taxes and wrath of the EU. This mess should not have dragged on for so long, we should have reminded the french about Agincourt, Crecy, Poltiers, Trafalgar and Waterloo plus the fact that if it was not for us English they would all be speaking German now and they should be glad we want to trade with them.


Well that is a selective list of battles. Hastings missed out.

Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt were all part of the Hundred Years’ War. We started it owning large parts of mainland Europe and ended it owning Calais. The last eight battles were won by France such as Patay and Castillon which get very little coverage in English History.





__





List of Hundred Years' War battles - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Trafalgar would have been a good example of what you are trying to say.

I think that past battles, victories and defeats are irrelevant. The big success of the EU is that after very many centuries of conflict and war in Europe, that prospect has all but disappeared, except perhsps in the Balkans.


----------



## Droogs

@jcassidy doesn't matter we're not in it any more. So the first genuine benefit of leave has been found, we can shoot Bojo and his gimps from a big canon into the ocean and leave them there


----------



## billw

Jonm said:


> The big success of the EU is that after very many centuries of conflict and war in Europe, that prospect has all but disappeared, except perhsps in the Balkans.



Maybe I'm misguided in my history but I always thought one of the core intentions of integrating Europe was to minimise the chances of war, the "League of Nations" being the starting point way back in the 1920s(ish)?

The Balkans seem to have mostly sorted out their conflicts now, we're still left with some issues that could ignite because of separatist issues but they're relatively minimal, eg Catalonia, Basques, Scotland, Cornwall, Sealand....


----------



## Distinterior

Sealand...! Blimey, that takes me back. I had a mate who went out and stayed on it for 3 months.


----------



## jcassidy

Droogs said:


> @jcassidy doesn't matter we're not in it any more. So the first genuine benefit of leave has been found, we can shoot Bojo and his gimps from a big canon into the ocean and leave them there


Kill all the fish and sort out the fisheries dispute, all in one go.


----------



## sploo

Droogs said:


> @jcassidy doesn't matter we're not in it any more. So the first genuine benefit of leave has been found, we can shoot Bojo and his gimps from a big canon into the ocean and leave them there


Well, you know what... all these years I thought Brexit was a national act of self harm, enabled by a populace mixing ignorance with jingoism, sold by charlatans and conmen, and backed by non-dom non-tax paying billionaire media moguls. And it turns out I was wrong. The chance to fire the sexually-incontinent pidgin-latin spouting sack of shi...zle into the sea may make it worthwhile. 

Allow me to add National Front Nige to the payload and I'll bloody well collect on the behalf of vote leave.

Anyway, in other news, I'm glad to see the reduced bureaucracy benefits coming into play: Brexit: Lorry drivers handed £32,000 in fines since New Year's Day


----------



## MarkDennehy

Noho12C said:


> Sure, we all saw how brits managed Dunkirk


'tis a pet peeve, but since great-granddad wound up in the dubsters for a few weeks (and how you did that is a bit of rather important history for the military history buffs to go look up), I'd really like to see someone mention the French 12th Motorised Infantry Division or the French First Army when talking about Dunkirk, since them fighting off three german panzer divisions (to the death btw) is why the BEF got to Dunkirk at all instead of being massacred on the banks of the Dyle.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Also, slightly worse news, the last few days have been the grace period for shipping from the continent:


----------



## RobinBHM

MarkDennehy said:


> Also, slightly worse news, the last few days have been the grace period for shipping from the continent



You aren't allowed to quote from the FT, they've always been pro EU and therefore are considered to be part of "project fear"

So please re-post with a quote from the Daily Express, where you will discover the truth: it's all the fault of the EU bullying us, or its Macrons fault, or it could the fault of unspecified furrinors.


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> You aren't allowed to quote from the FT, they've always been pro EU and therefore are considered to be part of "project fear"
> 
> So please re-post with a quote from the Daily Express, where you will discover the truth: it's all the fault of the EU bullying us, or its Macrons fault, or it could the fault of unspecified furrinors.


You want a quote from the Excrementspress? Go on then...


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> You want a quote from the Excrementspress? Go on then...



Wow. Amazing how far spin can go.


----------



## sploo

billw said:


> Wow. Amazing how far spin can go.


Remember:

We ban them = Taking back control! Power! Sovereignty!
They ban us = Bloody forriners!/EU!/Snowflakes!

etc. etc.


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> Remember:
> 
> We ban them = Taking back control! Power! Sovereignty!
> They ban us = Bloody forriners!/EU!/Snowflakes!
> 
> etc. etc.



Yes and it's things like this that are worrying for the future. If the story had been "well we did it to them, so no surprise they did it to us. We need to be adults and sort this out" it would have been a) much better and b) the cause of the Express losing sales forever.

Have people REALLY lost the ability to process information that isn't in their favour?


----------



## Nigel Burden

billw said:


> Have people REALLY lost the ability to process information that isn't in their favour?



Yes.

Nigel.


----------



## Noho12C

billw said:


> Yes and it's things like this that are worrying for the future. If the story had been "well we did it to them, so no surprise they did it to us. We need to be adults and sort this out" it would have been a) much better and b) the cause of the Express losing sales forever.
> 
> Have people REALLY lost the ability to process information that isn't in their favour?



I think you have a very good point here. 

It's fine to have a difference of opinions, and some can be in favour of brexit and some against it. As long as there is some reasoning behind (and respect for the other side)

But it looks like nowadays people don't bother to think. They read something on internet (preferably some dodgy website/newspaper/Facebook post) and just repeat it. No thinking, no checking. 

And not only for the brexit. The Covid vaccination is a very good example (did you know there are 5G chips in the vaccine ?)


----------



## RobinBHM

Noho12C said:


> It's fine to have a difference of opinions, and some can be in favour of brexit and some against it. As long as there is some reasoning behind (and respect for the other side



What makes the Brexit debate so hard is the endless dishonesty....mostly from the Leave side, although the remain project fear in 2016 was also dishonest.

every Brexit debate is pretty much taken up with debunking dishonest or misleading claims there's nothing left for meaningful debate.


EU membership for UK did have problems and there are some opportunities for the UK now it's left. But those debates have never been had and never will because the Leave campaign was and still is built on stuff that's not true, namely sovereignty, freedom, fishing etc.


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> But those debates have never been had and never will because the Leave campaign was and still is built on stuff that's not true, namely sovereignty, freedom, fishing etc.


And a reduction in bureaucracy... which is going as well as predicted: Brexit: The reality dawns

Oh, and £350 mil a week for the NHS. But it seems we're just clapping for them again instead.


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> Oh, and £350 mil a week for the NHS. But it seems we're just clapping for them again instead.



I bet the government are thankful to Captain Sir Tom Moore who managed to raise more for the NHS than Brexit has, and none of it from the public purse.


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> And a reduction in bureaucracy..



Rules of origin checks
Sanitary and phytosanitary controls
Transit documents
Customs declarations
VAT complications
Product certification no longer accepted
Replication of REACH now required.

I've heard of countless business owners who have moved their companies from UK to be inside the Single Market.....it's the only way they can continue to be competitive.


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> I've heard of countless business owners who have moved their companies from UK to be inside the Single Market.....it's the only way they can continue to be competitive.


Well, it's worked for Leave.eu (they've "moved" to Ireland, as it was required for them to keep their .eu domain). Irony. Etc.


----------



## Noel

sploo said:


> Well, it's worked for Leave.eu (they've "moved" to Ireland, as it was required for them to keep their .eu domain). Irony. Etc.



Which is against EU IP regulations. 
Apparently some bloke in Co Waterford has just found out he is the point of email contact for them. Investigation on it's way.


----------



## billw

Surely they should be registering left.eu anyway?


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> Which is against EU IP regulations.
> Apparently some bloke in Co Waterford has just found out he is the point of email contact for them. Investigation on it's way.


I thought it was ok (in that .eu domains need to be owned by either an EU business or EU citizen)? Obviously the fact the guy now named is apparently surprised by it is a problem.

For me, the "amusement" was that (like so many of the Brexit backers*) they have the resources to move critical infrastructure to EU nations in order to not lose out; whereas the majority of people they convinced to vote Leave do not.

* See: Farage getting German passports for his kids, or Ratcliffe sodding off to Monaco.


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> * See: Farage getting German passports for his kids, or Ratcliffe sodding off to Monaco.



Always laughed at the "foreigners do the jobs that no British person would do, which is why Farage's wife is German" jokes.


----------



## Noel

sploo said:


> I thought it was ok (in that .eu domains need to be owned by either an EU business or EU citizen)? Obviously the fact the guy now named is apparently surprised by it is a problem.



And carry out their business and/or be a resident of an EU state as far as I recall. 

The guy, Sean Power, in Waterford is quoted as saying:
_" My lawyers are looking into this on my behalf presently and will be in touch as deemed necessary in due course, _I_ have nothing to do with Leave.EU and never heard of it before yesterday.”_ 

Ah, here's the small-ish print:

According to Article 4 (2) (b) of Regulation (EC) No 733/2002, as amended by Regulation (EU) 2019/517, the following persons, undertakings and organisations are eligible to register .eu domain names: 


a Union citizen, independently of their place of residence;
a natural person who is not a Union citizen and who is a resident of a Member State;
an undertaking that is established in the Union; or
an organisation that is established in the Union, without prejudice to the application of national law.


----------



## Jake

Noel said:


> Which is against EU IP regulations.
> Apparently some bloke in Co Waterford has just found out he is the point of email contact for them. Investigation on it's way.



I thought they used Guido?


----------



## Noel

Jake said:


> I thought they used Guido?



There's less than a Rizla paper between the two outfits...
@Cheshirechappie might know, he's big on Staines/Guido if I recall correctly.


----------



## Jake

Noel said:


> There's less than a Rizla paper between the two outfits...
> @Cheshirechappie might know, he's big on Staines/Guido if I recall correctly.



Sorry I meant to re-register the domain, he being Irish resident/citizen with no apparent intention of leaving for sunlit uplands.


----------



## LBCarpentry

Starting to notice some serious price hikes in ironmongery and other consumable bits now. Some offerings have nearly doubled in price. What exactly did people think would happen when we “take back control”......of nothing...

Scary for those of us who price and win jobs a few months ahead of schedule. That’s a lots of profit vanishing. I Even imagine some people will be going back to customers and saying their agreed quotation is now void. Thus losing them the business for “unprofessionalism”. What a complete mess.


----------



## sploo

LBCarpentry said:


> Starting to notice some serious price hikes in ironmongery and other consumable bits now. Some offerings have nearly doubled in price. What exactly did people think would happen when we “take back control”......of nothing...
> 
> Scary for those of us who price and win jobs a few months ahead of schedule. That’s a lots of profit vanishing. I Even imagine some people will be going back to customers and saying their agreed quotation is now void. Thus losing them the business for “unprofessionalism”. What a complete mess.


In the interests of fairness; covid is playing a major part in the rise in shipping costs and issues around general transportation. Based on reports of problems at ports, Brexit is certainly a factor, but until covid is under control the full impact may be hard to judge.


----------



## artie

LBCarpentry said:


> I Even imagine some people will be going back to customers and saying their agreed quotation is now void. Thus losing them the business for “unprofessionalism”.


I don't think it would be unprofessional to revise a quote when circumstances beyond your control change.
Even where a contract is signed, There should always be a clause for unforeseen circumstances.

For the last number of months, even with verbal quotes I have been adding "That's under present circumstances" who knows what next week will bring.


----------



## Droogs

such as a fundamental material change in the international status of your nation. If that happens then you should get to reconsider previous arrangements, wouldn't you agree @artie


----------



## artie

Droogs said:


> such as a fundamental material change in the international status of your nation. If that happens then you should get to reconsider previous arrangements, wouldn't you agree @artie


Or something as simple as, going to the builders merchant and being told the cupboard is bare and will be for two weeks.
That happened me more than once, On one occasion I was able to source from a different supplier for a mere 29% more.


----------



## Benchwayze

We lost! For Heavens sake accept the democratic result get with the program to make Britain great again. If you can't or don't wish to do that then move to European Union to live. I am sick of the bickering from both sides. Grow up please!

John


----------



## RobinBHM

LBCarpentry said:


> Starting to notice some serious price hikes in ironmongery and other consumable bits now. Some offerings have nearly doubled in price. What exactly did people think would happen when we “take back control”......of nothing...
> 
> Scary for those of us who price and win jobs a few months ahead of schedule. That’s a lots of profit vanishing. I Even imagine some people will be going back to customers and saying their agreed quotation is now void. Thus losing them the business for “unprofessionalism”. What a complete mess.



Ive been warning my mate who runs a joinery shop about this.

Hafele, Hettich, Blum, Grass etc etc are all European

sheet materials..

Eggar: most plants are in Europe
Medite: factories in Ireland
Accoya made in Europe (tricoya factory being built in UK soon)



Kronospan: 
*2015 Shippenville, USA
2015 Ryomgaard, Denmark
2014 Le Creusot, France
2014 Auxerre, France
2013 Mogilev, Belarus
2013 Ufa, Russia
2013 Elektrogorsk, Russia
2013 Villabrazaro, Spain
2012 Burgos, Spain
2012 Salas de los Infantes, Spain
2011 Smorgon, Belarus
2009 Brasov, Romania
2009 Strzelce Opolskie, Poland
2009 Lapovo, Serbia
2007 Szombathely, Hungary
2007 Spremberg, Germany
2007 Ponterosso, Italy
2007 Veliko Tarnovo, Bulgaria
2005 Riga, Latvia
2005 Oxford Alabama, USA
2004 Mohacs, Hungary
2004 Novovolynsk, Ukraine
2004 Bjelovar, Croatia
2004 Sebes, Romania
2004 Egorievsk, Russia
2003 Zvolen, Slovakia
2001 Bischweier, Germany
2000 Beijing/Danyang, China
1998 Mielec, Poland
1997 Burgas, Bulgaria
1996 Pustków, Poland
1995 Jihlava, Czech Republic
1994 Sanem, Luxembourg
1993 Lampertswalde, Germany
1992 Poznan, Poland
1989 Szczecinek, Poland
1982 Sandebeck, Germany
1970 Chirk, United Kingdom
1959 Salzburg, Austria
1897 Lungötz, Austria*


----------



## RobinBHM

Benchwayze said:


> the program to make Britain great again



will it be as successful as Trump making America Great Again?


----------



## Droogs

I can't make Britain great again Im not allowed to get the bus to london and storm westminster.


----------



## Misterdog

sploo said:


> Oh, and £350 mil a week for the NHS. But it seems we're just clapping for them again instead.



Though that figure rose after 2016. 



> In 2018 the UK’s gross contribution to the EU amounted to £20.0 billion; however, this amount of money was never actually transferred to the EU. It is best thought of as a theoretical liability.







__





The UK contribution to the EU budget - Office for National Statistics


How much does the UK contribute to the EU budget as a member? And what about payments from the EU?



www.ons.gov.uk





Many seem unable to grasp a difference between gross and nett figures though.


But in the interview with the Guardian newspaper, Johnson said the UK’s weekly gross contribution to the EU would rise to 438 million pounds by the time Britain left the bloc.

“There was an error on the side of the bus,” Johnson said. “We grossly underestimated the sum over which we would be able to take back control. As and when the cash becomes available – and it won’t until we leave – the NHS should be at the very top of the list.”

As for the Brexit pound, well it was worth 2.6 Dollars the year before we joined the EU. 

It was still a dumb idea IMO.


----------



## Benchwayze

Not while we all moan about it instead of getting with it. God help us if we ever need to conscript again for a conflict.

That's my two pennorth done with.

John


----------



## Misterdog

RobinBHM said:


> will it be as successful as Trump making America Great Again?



Though he brought unemployment in the US to a 50 year low.









U.S. Unemployment Rate Falls to 50-Year Low


The Bureau of Labor Statistics released its monthly Employment Situation Report, which shows robust employment growth in September.




www.whitehouse.gov


----------



## sploo

Misterdog said:


> “There was an error on the side of the bus,” Johnson said. “We grossly underestimated the sum over which we would be able to take back control. As and when the cash becomes available – and it won’t until we leave – the NHS should be at the very top of the list.”


There are two small issues with that; one being that most of the individuals that fronted the leave campaign are opposed to social services (such as socialised healthcare). Indeed some had even written or publicly spoken in favour of NHS privatization, or replacing it with "some sort of health insurance". As such, it would seem somewhat unlikely that those individuals would hand extra cash to the NHS; even if it were available. It would essentially be like an economically left wing politician trying to gain votes by claiming they'd support larger bonuses for bankers - it's just not particularly plausible, given that person's political history.

The second problem (specifically with the above quote) is that Boris Johnson said it. The last few years have rather shown that there's absolutely no connection between what Boris says, and what Boris will do tomorrow.



Benchwayze said:


> Not while we all moan about it instead of getting with it. God help us if we ever need to conscript again for a conflict.


We are all getting on with it. Many of us are trying to work out how to get on with our business and personal lives whilst working around the problems it's caused.


----------



## Benchwayze

Okay Sploo. I don't worry about folk like you. It's fruitless whinging I am sick of. But I am sure you got my point to begin with.

John


----------



## RobinBHM

Benchwayze said:


> Not while we all moan about it instead of getting with it. God help us if we ever need to conscript again for a conflict.
> 
> That's my two pennorth done with.
> 
> John



It is debating rather than moaning.

I hate to say this but it does rather seem that people would like all the Brexit problems to be brushed under the carpet. 

However in order to "get on with it", it's important to be informed of the facts.


----------



## LBCarpentry

Benchwayze said:


> We lost! For Heavens sake accept the democratic result get with the program to make Britain great again. If you can't or don't wish to do that then move to European Union to live. I am sick of the bickering from both sides. Grow up please!
> 
> John



A ridiculous thing to bark out.

I do accept the vote, I have no choice do I? But Does that mean it can’t mentioned ever again? 

First off, I’m British, and therefore I love to moan. Second off, I’m British, and I love saying “I told you so”

“Make Britain great again” - first time I’ve heard that - raises an eyebrow. So is that referring to the successful Trump administration or our glorious colonial past? 

Louis


----------



## Misterdog

sploo said:


> The second problem (specifically with the above quote) is that Boris Johnson said it. The last few years have rather shown that there's absolutely no connection between what Boris says, and what Boris will do tomorrow.



Though Keir Starmer has just said that he thinks that 'probably' all nurseries and early learning centres should close.

He has constantly criticised government for sending out confusing messages,
though if they do close, then he will claim that Labour mentioned it first.



> Of course we support government on this issue - but - if they had listened to us days ago, lives could have been saved.


 (my version of upcoming quote Labour)

Though if child care is closed then front line medical staff may have to stay at home, thereby risking lives.. 

All politicians are mendacious and manipulative by nature, one party is no better than another IMO.

There are no correct answers anyway only opinions. As the indisputable science has proven during this pandemic.
The scientists are like Brexit politicians.

Has wearing masks reduced transmission ? not according to the figures I am seeing.
Some 'science' could say - image how bad it would be if we were not wearing masks.


----------



## Misterdog

RobinBHM said:


> However in order to "get on with it", it's important to be informed of the facts.



The only fact we have so far is that it took a bunch of overpaid politicians on both sides, 4 years of posturing to reach a deal that was always inevitable.

So why leave it until the 11th hour, thus causing even more hardship and uncertainty.
Well the EU wishes to show any other country daring to leave how hard they will make it, IMO.


----------



## doctor Bob

Anyone who has a joinery shop saying it could go bust this year, would have gone bust anyway, we have never had it so good.
Stop whinging, would you rather have a pub, cafe, nightclub, gym etc. You have a privaliged business in these terrible times.
You need to look at the bigger picture, honestly, if you can't make a profit on a job when prices of SOME materials goes up then you have priced wrong.

Talk about looking for a down side. In the past I have done jobs at a loss just to keep my guys busy, that will not happen in the present times. 
I guess I'm easily pleased, this is just my view, but have some sympathy for the bigger picture and count your lucky stars.


----------



## Droogs

Benchwayze said:


> Not while we all moan about it instead of getting with it. God help us if we ever need to conscript again for a conflict.
> 
> That's my two pennorth done with.
> 
> John


Damn right because I for one will do everything I can to ensure that no other Scot ever takes up arms in the defence of a UK where 2 of the kingdoms in it are kept in subjugation by one of the other 2. I say that as ex UK mil. This place I find myself living in is not the place I gave 20 years to protect. I am a British passport holder/citizen and I feel genuinne shame and embaressment that I am. But as I have been stripped of my rights that I spilled my blood to have, I can not live anywhere else and have the full protection of the laws and rights I fought to defend.


----------



## Benchwayze

Typical reaction. Say something original instead of the worn out anti Colonial drivel, or don't bother.


----------



## Noel

Benchwayze said:


> We lost! For Heavens sake accept the democratic result get with the program to make Britain great again. If you can't or don't wish to do that then move to European Union to live. I am sick of the bickering from both sides. Grow up please!
> 
> John



Just Britain then John? Rest of UK doesn't matter to you?


----------



## RobinBHM

Misterdog said:


> Though he brought unemployment in the US to a 50 year low.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Unemployment Rate Falls to 50-Year Low
> 
> 
> The Bureau of Labor Statistics released its monthly Employment Situation Report, which shows robust employment growth in September.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.whitehouse.gov


That's a little misleading.

What is more accurate is: "unemployment reached a 50 year low whilst Trump was in office"

I do agree that the economy hasn't done badly under Trump, but he hasn't done any amazing fiscal policies to achieve it and his tax cuts aren't sustainable.


----------



## Benchwayze

Droogs said:


> Damn right because I for one will do everything I can to ensure that no other Scot ever takes up arms in the defence of a UK where 2 of the kingdoms in it are kept in subjugation by one of the other 2. I say that as ex UK mil. This place I find myself living in is not the place I gave 20 years to protect. I am a British passport holder/citizen and I feel genuinne shame and embaressment that I am. But as I have been stripped of my rights that I spilled my blood to have, I can not live anywhere else and have the full protection of the laws and rights I fought to defend.


Droog. Your given right to say all this . Don't expect me to share with you though. I did my whack too. I was supposed to have been too young at the time. As were the Scots, Welsh and Irish lads with me. We just did as we were told. No histrionics from within the pram.

I had an idea the would be a reaction from .... well there you go! 

John


----------



## doctor Bob

LBCarpentry said:


> Starting to notice some serious price hikes in ironmongery and other consumable bits now. Some offerings have nearly doubled in price.



Could you give an example, I couldn't.
I could do 10% example, but I could do that every January.

I could also give examples of delays in products, but this started back in sept /oct, mainly due to demand and lockdown closure of factories in Europe. I overcome this by adding to the panic by spending about £20k on hardware stock.


----------



## Benchwayze

Noel said:


> Just Britain then John? Rest of UK doesn't matter to you?


Last time I looked Noel Britain *was *the UK; or have I made a mistake somewhere? Jumping Jacks! That does it. Am I landed among fools?

NOTE
*Great Britain*

1. England, Wales, and Scotland considered as a unit. The name is also often used loosely to refer to the United Kingdom.
Come back Noel?

John


----------



## Noel

Benchwayze said:


> Last time I looked Noel Britain *was *the UK; or have I made a mistake somewhere? Jumping Jacks! That does it. Am I landed among fools?
> 
> John



Looks like you may have landed in that very place John : )


----------



## Droogs

Yes Benchwayze, you are mistaken. We live on the Bristish Ilses, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is specifically England, Scotland and Wales only, even says so on passports regardless of colour


----------



## Benchwayze

Noel said:


> Looks like you may have landed in that very place John : )


You made the gaff Noel. Not me. England is England. I never mentioned England. I said Britain, which is the UK... The four constituent parts combined. The UK, aka Britain. There's some question as to whether or not it is still Great! 

John


----------



## Benchwayze

Droogs said:


> Yes Benchwayze, you are mistaken. We live on the Bristish Ilses, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is specifically England, Scotland and Wales only, even says so on passports regardless of colour


Fair enough. I have heard that before. But Noel was implying that I didn't care about certain other parts of these Isles. That was not so. You can argue the point if you wish. I won't... Britain is the UK for all practical purposes. To win your point, you think otherwise. Okay I bow to your superior knowledge, oh wise one. But the UK is Britain to most of us. And it's the Britain I care about.


----------



## Misterdog

RobinBHM said:


> What is more accurate is: "unemployment reached a 50 year low whilst Trump was in office"



LOL.

More accurately, is that anyone who stands under the banner of socialism will never credit anyone, not under their banner, with anything.
And vice-versa.

Trump ( a sociopath in my view) proudly boasted of the wall he would build, with criticism from much of the world.
The EU however also built a wall, providing Turkey and Libya with tens of billions to prevent migrants from crossing into the EU.









Syria–Turkey barrier - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Hypocrisy ?

I have no banner under which to stand, so I see both sides, and applaud few.


----------



## doctor Bob

Misterdog said:


> I have no banner under which to stand, so I see both sides.



LOL, they don't like that around here......


----------



## Benchwayze

Droogs said:


> Yes Benchwayze, you are mistaken. We live on the Bristish Ilses, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is specifically England, Scotland and Wales only, even says so on passports regardless of colour



Actually I don't have a passport any more. 

And Nil illegitimi carborundum deorsum pronus... )
My latin is pigeon latin, but I figure you will get my drift. 

Britain... = Nillus Secundus.

John


----------



## Benchwayze

doctor Bob said:


> LOL, they don't like that around here......


They are clearly either Alpha or Beta people... NOT Sigma types! LOL!

Now for my roast lamb and spaghetti with tom-sauce!


----------



## Benchwayze

RobinBHM said:


> will it be as successful as Trump making America Great Again?


I dont have a crystsl ball so I don't know. But certainly whining won't achieve a thing. Except convince weak minds that dragging evéyone down to one level is the way to go.
John


----------



## billw

Benchwayze said:


> Actually I don't have a passport any more.
> 
> And Nil illegitimi carborundum deorsum pronus... )
> My latin is pigeon latin, but I figure you will get my drift.
> 
> Britain... = Nillus Secundus.
> 
> John



England, Scotland, and Wales are on the island of Great Britain. There is no geographical place called Britain.


----------



## doctor Bob

classic one upmanship going on here..............................


----------



## RobinBHM

Benchwayze said:


> I dont have a crystsl ball so I don't know. But certainly whining won't achieve a thing. Except convince weak minds that dragging evéyone down to one level is the way to go.
> John



Please dont conflate debating with moaning or whining.

Leaving the Single Market has created very significant trade barriers which will have a damaging impact on UK business for many many years.

Why are you scared of this being discussed......perhaps you don't want Brexit reality being scrutinised.


----------



## LBCarpentry

doctor Bob said:


> Could you give an example, I couldn't.
> I could do 10% example, but I could do that every January.
> 
> I could also give examples of delays in products, but this started back in sept /oct, mainly due to demand and lockdown closure of factories in Europe. I overcome this by adding to the panic by spending about £20k on hardware stock.



Reddiseals


----------



## RobinBHM

billw said:


> There is no geographical place called Britain



That's true, it's been renamed The Great Sunlit Uplands


----------



## doctor Bob

LBCarpentry said:


> Reddiseals


I'm not familiar with this product as I'm furniture.
However I get it, but to really affect you can I suggest it has to be bigger value products. I'd be annoyed if mag catches doubled but it wouldn't stop me making a reasonable profit.
If your glass doubles or if my timber doubled then I'd get your point.
Even then, I go back to my original point that I don't think anyone in this industry should be moaning when you look at the bigger picture.


----------



## Jake

You should be OK in your business Bob. I assume the City taking a big hit would not be good for customers, but it is not clear what will happen there. Otherwise, it is just about some inputs which are imported via wholesalers. As you say, might see some price rises but they should be limited given no tariffs and the type of goods. 

It's a lot more complicated for lots of other types of business.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> You should be OK in your business Bob. I assume the City taking a big hit would not be good for customers, but it is not clear what will happen there. Otherwise, it is just about some inputs which are imported via wholesalers. As you say, might see some price rises but they should be limited given no tariffs and the type of goods.



Well not according to posters on here. Someone mentioned how all joinery products will go mental and gave a long list of european suppliers, another joiner reckons it's stopping his profit. Not sure what your opinion is now Jake.

I'm just giving an honest opinion rather than taking a side.


----------



## Jake

I was agreeing with you Bob, if that is allowed. I think a fairly straightforward domestic business like yours which only needs to rely on some straightforward EU goods as inputs should not be affected too much.


----------



## Benchwayze

RobinBHM said:


> Please dont conflate debating with moaning or whining.
> 
> Leaving the Single Market has created very significant trade barriers which will have a damaging impact on UK business for many many years.
> 
> Why are you scared of this being discussed......perhaps you don't want Brexit reality being . I
> 
> 
> am scared of my heart giving up and that's about all. But in that instance I won't know that much sb





Droogs said:


> Yes Benchwayze, you are mistaken. We live on the Bristish Ilses, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is specifically England, Scotland and Wales only, even says so on passports regardless of colour


Includes Eire. Strange eh? You are talking geographically. Subtle difference to me.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> I was agreeing with you Bob, if that is allowed.


Don't try that low down trick on me .................... now I really am confused


----------



## Jake

doctor Bob said:


> Don't try that low down trick on me .................... now I really am confused



I didn't mean to do your head in Bob sorry.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

The Brexit opposition had a real opportunity in 2019, and may have got a second referendum. Politics got in the way and they screwed it up.

The Labour Party lost 3 elections since 2011. Not because the Tories adopted fantastic policies all effectively implemented. They lost as they had neither the policies, leadership or credibility to succeed.

The dominant Remainer strategy (of which I was one) was complacency from 2013 when Cameron promised the referendum. Believing arguments based on logic and fact would win the day was mistaken.

However upsetting or disruptive, it has happened. Put energy into making it work, not futile anger at what might have been. 

Losers in a democratic debate need to take as much responsibility for the outcome as the winners.


----------



## Benchwayze

RobinBHM said:


> It is debating rather than moaning.
> 
> I hate to say this but it does rather seem that people would like all the Brexit problems to be brushed under the carpet.



Don't presume to read my thoughts Robin.

To paraphrase Morgan Freeman In Shawshank Redemption . Get busy working or get busy folding up.
You are British? Well live with it and get behind the rest. No More from me.


----------



## Noel

Benchwayze said:


> Fair enough. I have heard that before. But Noel was implying that I didn't care about certain other parts of these Isles. That was not so. You can argue the point if you wish. I won't... Britain is the UK for all practical purposes. To win your point, you think otherwise. Okay I bow to your superior knowledge, oh wise one. But the UK is Britain to most of us. And it's the Britain I care about.





Benchwayze said:


> Includes Eire. Strange eh? You are talking geographically. Subtle difference to me.





Benchwayze said:


> Fair enough. I have heard that before. But Noel was implying that I didn't care about certain other parts of these Isles. That was not so. You can argue the point if you wish. I won't... Britain is the UK for all practical purposes. To win your point, you think otherwise. Okay I bow to your superior knowledge, oh wise one. But the UK is Britain to most of us. And it's the Britain I care about.



Didn’t mean to imply you didn’t care John but, as said by others, you are mistaken ref Britain/UK.

Regarding your other post: Eire? Do you speak Gaelic : )


----------



## Jake

We are at the zenith of the distance of our relationship with the EU, there will be a gradual drift back as we negotiate the rest of the relationship. My guess is that culminates in some form of joining again within a few decades.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> We are at the zenith of the distance of our relationship with the EU, there will be a gradual drift back as we negotiate the rest of the relationship. My guess is that culminates in some form of joining again within a few decades.



or the EU collapses completely as more countries leave, just another guess.


----------



## LBCarpentry

doctor Bob said:


> I'm not familiar with this product as I'm furniture.
> However I get it, but to really affect you can I suggest it has to be bigger value products. I'd be annoyed if mag catches doubled but it wouldn't stop me making a reasonable profit.
> If your glass doubles or if my timber doubled then I'd get your point.
> Even then, I go back to my original point that I don't think anyone in this industry should be moaning when you look at the bigger picture.



Just one example - in November casement stays were £2.86 + Vat. Today they are £4.69 and only one example. We are only a small business & we spend nearly a grand a month with Reddiseals, Price increase for that company alone would be the equivalent of buying a new business van. 

It’s not to be scoffed at and paying attention to the small things is what creates the bigger picture. That’s what running a business is. I don’t believe we have had anywhere near the full extent of price rises yet. Timber and glass will come too that’s for sure.

Louis


----------



## Jake

doctor Bob said:


> or the EU collapses completely as more countries leave, just another guess.



Very unlikely indeed. Especially now they've seen where exiting gets you. Even the neo-fash populists are more now talking reform not exit. Brexiter pipedream. Euro has issues but that's not essential (as we showed).


----------



## sploo

Misterdog said:


> All politicians are mendacious and manipulative by nature, one party is no better than another IMO.
> 
> There are no correct answers anyway only opinions. As the indisputable science has proven during this pandemic.
> The scientists are like Brexit politicians.
> 
> Has wearing masks reduced transmission ? not according to the figures I am seeing.
> Some 'science' could say - image how bad it would be if we were not wearing masks.


To be a successful politician you've got to be good at getting what you want; but the "all politicians lie" trope is dangerous - because it normalises the likes of Trump or Johnson. Granted it would be fairly hard to point to any politician and claim they're the model of truth and honesty, but most are not pathological liars. Dismissing all as bad means we bury our heads and allow the very worst ones to continue unchallenged, because we accept it as somehow normal; it's not.

Scientists are nothing remotely like Brexit politicians. Science may not always be right, and not every scientist is honest, but the overwhelming majority are simply trying to gather data in order to test hypotheses. When one says "we don't know" - it means we don't know (yet). That honesty is critically important, and much better than the charlatans who claim to have all the answers. Tragically that caution appears to be interpreted by many as a lack of certainly, competence, or honesty; whereas the con-men who confidently broadcast their version of truth to the world are all too often seen as the ones to hear.


----------



## Benchwayze

Noel said:


> Didn’t mean to imply you didn’t care John



Sadly i think you did. And this twisting of my words by Droogs when he knows fine well what I meant by Britain, is just typical pedantry to score cheap points. It doesn't work with me. Still say there's a lot of whinging getting in the way of any so called debate.

Bye


----------



## Ollie78

[/QUOTE]


RobinBHM said:


> What makes the Brexit debate so hard is the endless dishonesty....mostly from the Leave side, although the remain project fear in 2016 was also dishonest.
> 
> every Brexit debate is pretty much taken up with debunking dishonest or misleading claims there's nothing left for meaningful debate.
> 
> 
> EU membership for UK did have problems and there are some opportunities for the UK now it's left. But those debates have never been had and never will because the Leave campaign was and still is built on stuff that's not true, namely sovereignty, freedom, fishing etc.



This is so true. 

Trying to find a real fact about brexit is at this point completely impossible. 
I would love for someone with no vested interest to do a real study into the lies of all sides and the real facts. I suggest maybe a Japanese university or someone like that. It would certainly make interesting reading.

Ollie


----------



## Jacob

Ollie78 said:


> This is so true.
> 
> Trying to find a real fact about brexit is at this point completely impossible.
> I would love for someone with no vested interest to do a real study into the lies of all sides and the real facts. I suggest maybe a Japanese university or someone like that. It would certainly make interesting reading.
> 
> Ollie


We are just waiting for somebody to explain how brexit will benefit them or their business, now, in the real world, not pie in the sky. What opportunities are now available to them and how are they exploiting them?
It's the missing link - surely there'd be something tangible?


----------



## Mark Hancock

sploo said:


> To be a successful politician you've got to be good at getting what you want; but the "all politicians lie" trope is dangerous - because it normalises the likes of Trump or Johnson. Granted it would be fairly hard to point to any politician and claim they're the model of truth and honesty, but most are not pathological liars. Dismissing all as bad means we bury our heads and allow the very worst ones to continue unchallenged, because we accept it as somehow normal; it's not.
> 
> Scientists are nothing remotely like Brexit politicians. Science may not always be right, and not every scientist is honest, but the overwhelming majority are simply trying to gather data in order to test hypotheses. When one says "we don't know" - it means we don't know (yet). That honesty is critically important, and much better than the charlatans who claim to have all the answers. Tragically that caution appears to be interpreted by many as a lack of certainly, competence, or honesty; whereas the con-men who confidently broadcast their version of truth to the world are all too often seen as the ones to hear.


I’ve refrained from getting involved in this thread although I have been following it with first amusement and then despair. Despair at the polarization we find in society today e.g. covid, Trump, Brexit etc.

Politicians:
A “good” politician is not one who gets want he wants. IMHO a good politician is one who has integrity, morality, honesty, open minded and able to change their stance through rational argument. Sadly due to the party system there are very few about simply because if they are elected when a member of a political party they then have to conform and abide with the views of that party or face expulsion and possible deselection. My local MP is a classic example of this; he has agreed with Cameron, May and Johnson, changing his views on each change of PM, purely to maintain his role as a minor minister in each administration – my cynical view and I have the same views of other political parties.

Scientists:
Science is not an exact discipline. It’s about discovering, understanding and trying to quantify. I vaguely remember the number of planets in our solar system from my youth; now I don’t. I also recall using different theories (wave or particle) to explain different phenomenon depending on the situation. Those that quote data from scientific sources first need to understand the parameters under which that data was arrived at; saw today someone saying a covid vaccine was a problem because one person died “from it”!

Trying to combine the two, politicians and scientists, to inform the public, as in the present pandemic situation, was never going to work unless the former took the unprecedented step of putting their party dogma to one side and worked for the benefit of all.

Fake News:
I never heard of this until about five years ago and I sadly believe it’s why we find ourselves where we are. I hate generalisation but it would appear that a large majority nowadays accept what they see/ are told/fed, be it from news sources or social media, without thought or question. I saw recently on either this thread or another on this forum where misinformation which had been debunked ages ago was yet again peddled as a response. Those that do this are part of the problem. They should be held accountable as all it does is polarize people further and fuel the ludicrous conspiratorial theories that abound e.g. man-made virus, microchip in vaccine, rigged elections etc. I’ve stopped calling these people out as it always seem to end in abuse rather that rational discussion.

I’ll respond to genuine comments but any going down the semantic line I’m not concerned with. I’ve tried to be as clear as possible and am only interested in rational discussion.


----------



## Benchwayze

RobinBHM said:


> Please dont conflate debating with moaning or whining.
> 
> Leaving the Single Market has created very significant trade barriers which will have a damaging impact on UK business for many many years.
> 
> Why are you scared of this being discussed......perhaps you don't want Brexit reality being scrutinised.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Don't talk wet! No one really knows yet to be honest. We all have to wait a while instead of jumping in. I just am sick of the whinging is all.
> And why did you respond to my originsl charge of whinging and moaning? Was there a bit of guilt there? Lol!
> Bye-bye.


----------



## RobinBHM

I used to have an account with Hettich UK, they used to hold most stock in Germany....but orders arrived in 3 days. I can't see rapid supply chains


Benchwayze said:


> Don't presume to read my thoughts Robin.
> 
> To paraphrase Morgan Freeman In Shawshank Redemption . Get busy working or get busy folding up.
> You are British? Well live with it and get behind the rest. No More from me.



Yet you presume to read my thoughts by interpreting debating as moaning.


How can I get behind Brexit when this Brexit government can't get behind Brexit?

It is blindingly obvious this government don't believe in Brexit, because if they did, they wouldn't be pushing out lies and misinformation about it.


People who are proud of their achievement are happy to be honest about it.


----------



## RobinBHM

Mark Hancock said:


> I’ve refrained from getting involved in this thread although I have been following it with first amusement and then despair. Despair at the polarization we find in society today e.g. covid, Trump, Brexit etc.
> 
> Politicians:
> A “good” politician is not one who gets want he wants. IMHO a good politician is one who has integrity, morality, honesty, open minded and able to change their stance through rational argument. Sadly due to the party system there are very few about simply because if they are elected when a member of a political party they then have to conform and abide with the views of that party or face expulsion and possible deselection. My local MP is a classic example of this; he has agreed with Cameron, May and Johnson, changing his views on each change of PM, purely to maintain his role as a minor minister in each administration – my cynical view and I have the same views of other political parties.
> 
> Scientists:
> Science is not an exact discipline. It’s about discovering, understanding and trying to quantify. I vaguely remember the number of planets in our solar system from my youth; now I don’t. I also recall using different theories (wave or particle) to explain different phenomenon depending on the situation. Those that quote data from scientific sources first need to understand the parameters under which that data was arrived at; saw today someone saying a covid vaccine was a problem because one person died “from it”!
> 
> Trying to combine the two, politicians and scientists, to inform the public, as in the present pandemic situation, was never going to work unless the former took the unprecedented step of putting their party dogma to one side and worked for the benefit of all.
> 
> Fake News:
> I never heard of this until about five years ago and I sadly believe it’s why we find ourselves where we are. I hate generalisation but it would appear that a large majority nowadays accept what they see/ are told/fed, be it from news sources or social media, without thought or question. I saw recently on either this thread or another on this forum where misinformation which had been debunked ages ago was yet again peddled as a response. Those that do this are part of the problem. They should be held accountable as all it does is polarize people further and fuel the ludicrous conspiratorial theories that abound e.g. man-made virus, microchip in vaccine, rigged elections etc. I’ve stopped calling these people out as it always seem to end in abuse rather that rational discussion.
> 
> I’ll respond to genuine comments but any going down the semantic line I’m not concerned with. I’ve tried to be as clear as possible and am only interested in rational discussion.


Great post, many thanks.

the problem is lies spread faster than the truth.....


There are only two intellectually-*honest* debate tactics:

1. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s *facts*
2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s *logic*

Whereas the dishonest list is much much longer


----------



## Benchwayze

Robin. 

Telepathy not needed. Your post is one long moan. Give it a rest.


----------



## RobinBHM

If nobody knows yet how things will turn out.....why did you vote for Brexit?

Earlier on you claimed it will "make Britain great again" here you are know, saying "we don't know how it's going to work out"


----------



## RobinBHM

Benchwayze said:


> Robin.
> 
> Telepathy not needed. Your post is one long moan. Give it a rest.


Telepathy not used.

This government continuously push out Brexit mistruths....that is fact

People who are proud of true achievement are happy to be honest about it.....that is fact.


If Brexit is so great why can't they be honest?


----------



## Benchwayze

Now I am incensed. 
How the he'll can you presume to know which way I voted? Look at my original post. I said WE LOST not YOU LOST. That might be a clue or it might not be. It's my business not yours

John 

John


----------



## Benchwayze

Oh God give me strength. What is wrong with this fellow? He would be amusing if he wasn't so pathetic. Anything he doesn't like has to be a lie.
Think of something else Robin. Then I might waste a bit more time on responding.
For the last time my initial post said get with the program. Accept the result and get behind the job. STOP MOANING.WHICHEVER SIDE YOU ARE ON! And don't think you know which side I am on because you don't, however much you might think it's obvious. 
I am done with you on this. Time to grow up sonny


John


----------



## sploo

Mark Hancock said:


> I’ve refrained from getting involved in this thread although I have been following it with first amusement and then despair. Despair at the polarization we find in society today e.g. covid, Trump, Brexit etc.
> 
> Politicians:
> A “good” politician is not one who gets want he wants. IMHO a good politician is one who has integrity, morality, honesty, open minded and able to change their stance through rational argument. Sadly due to the party system there are very few about simply because if they are elected when a member of a political party they then have to conform and abide with the views of that party or face expulsion and possible deselection. My local MP is a classic example of this; he has agreed with Cameron, May and Johnson, changing his views on each change of PM, purely to maintain his role as a minor minister in each administration – my cynical view and I have the same views of other political parties.


Yea, I probably should have said that a _successful_ politician is one who gets what he wants 

I think our local (Tory) MP probably fits the above description too. He generally seems like a decent person, but as a relatively junior member he just votes in line with the party. I suppose I should be glad to not have one of the fully swivel eyed crazies.


----------



## sploo

Benchwayze said:


> Oh God give me strength. What is wrong with this fellow? He would be amusing if he wasn't so pathetic. Anything he doesn't like has to be a lie.
> Think of something else Robin. Then I might waste a bit more time on responding.
> For the last time my initial post said get with the program. Accept the result and get behind the job. STOP MOANING.WHICHEVER SIDE YOU ARE ON! And don't think you know which side I am on because you don't, however much you might think it's obvious.
> I am done with you on this. Time to grow up sonny
> 
> 
> John


John.... you've come into the thread... to complain about people complaining... and are now complaining that Robin is complaining, when (at least based on his last few posts) he's just making pretty clear and factually based comments. I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but it doesn't seem this thread is doing you much good.


----------



## Benchwayze

I am done with it Sploo. I ought to have known better than try to debate Marxists. It's easier to juggle with glue. 
When they stop using the Guardian and other rags for their 'truths' and look for real evidence then I might come back to UKW. Maybe if they banned politics and religion on this forum like they once did it would help. As a parting shot I never mentioned sides. I merely got sick of the moaning and maybe a little rashly I said so. And I am still dismayed by it. 
Regards

John


----------



## sploo

Benchwayze said:


> I am done with it Sploo. I ought to have known better than try to debate Marxists. It's easier to juggle with glue.
> When they stop using the Guardian and other rags for their 'truths' and look for real evidence then I might come back to UKW. Maybe if they banned politics and religion on this forum like they once did it would help. As a parting shot I never mentioned sides. I merely got sick of the moaning and maybe a little rashly I said so. And I am still dismayed by it.
> Regards
> 
> John


What I know about Marxism you could fit on the back of a stamp... but I'm not really seeing any in the statements above regarding Brexit. Indeed, it's not really about capitalism vs socialism, or authoritarianism vs libertarianism.

The Grauniad(sic) can be lefty nonsense (in the way the Mail is "righty" nonsense), but factual reports of parked lorries and paperwork problems at borders are just that: factual.


----------



## Benchwayze

RobinBHM said:


> If nobody knows yet how things will turn out.....why did you vote for Brexit?
> 
> Earlier on you claimed it will "make Britain great again" here you are know, saying "we don't know how it's going to work out"


Was this drivel aimed at me Robin?Are you saying if I don't know what the outcome will be on any subject I shouldn't vote for anything? That is truly nonsense. People vote with their heart all the time. Especially the young. And I should check your predictive text. There is now and theŕe is know. You know?
John


----------



## Daniel2

Benchwayze said:


> I am done with it Sploo. I ought to have known better than try to debate Marxists. It's easier to juggle with glue.
> When they stop using the Guardian and other rags for their 'truths' and look for real evidence then I might come back to UKW. Maybe if they banned politics and religion on this forum like they once did it would help. As a parting shot I never mentioned sides. I merely got sick of the moaning and maybe a little rashly I said so. And I am still dismayed by it.
> Regards
> 
> John



Is it too simple to not read, or participate in, threads which you find upsetting ?


----------



## starlingwood

I had a quote the other day for about 600EUROS of castors from Germany and they wanted to slap a 42EURO 'customs declaration' charge on the order. I thought UK-EU agreed a FTA at the 11th hour?


----------



## billw

starlingwood said:


> I had a quote the other day for about 600EUROS of castors from Germany and they wanted to slap a 42EURO 'customs declaration' charge on the order. I thought UK-EU agreed a FTA at the 11th hour?



That's sounding like the company charging you for their time and effort in filling out paperwork. Nothing in any agreement that stops this from happening.


----------



## marcros

starlingwood said:


> I had a quote the other day for about 600EUROS of castors from Germany and they wanted to slap a 42EURO 'customs declaration' charge on the order. I thought UK-EU agreed a FTA at the 11th hour?



There is a FTA. The €42 isn't an import tax so is allowed.


----------



## starlingwood

marcros said:


> There is a FTA. The €42 isn't an import tax so is allowed.



When I questioned this they said it was due to Brexit. I asked if it was just an admin fee for their paperwork and they did not get back to me.


----------



## marcros

starlingwood said:


> When I questioned this they said it was due to Brexit. I asked if it was just an admin fee for their paperwork and they did not get back to me.



I believe that it will be additional admin due to Brexit.


----------



## giantbeat

starlingwood said:


> I had a quote the other day for about 600EUROS of castors from Germany and they wanted to slap a 42EURO 'customs declaration' charge on the order. I thought UK-EU agreed a FTA at the 11th hour?



its not that simple I'm afraid
there will be no duty/tariffs, but that does not mean no import costs..... you will still be charged for clearing customs & of course VAT which now has to be checked at the borders... its all extra work. .... a whole heap of new admin to be done for both sides so we are seeing customs charges fly up.... based upon the complexity of the deal they ahve hammered out & the way HMRC wants the EU to handle VAT (i go into this abit more below) its actualy more complcated & labour intensive than WTO rules, which we knew the cost of before, what we are doiling with now is completely unknown & we are realizing the costs we realise the workload

EU companies that sell to the UK are now expected to register for VAT in the UK & complete a quarterly return & pay HMRC for sales of a certain value...or on other higher value instances expected not deduct the VAT and sell items ex vat for HMRC to collect VAT at the border.... so yet again more admin to do, which all costs.

couriers such as DPD have already added their own extra admin charges onto consignments for customs clearance (or they did until the suspended EU & UK road services last week as 50% of consignments were getting rejected at both sides of borders due to in complete or incorrect customs paperwork)

The fact is the deal happening at the last minute has thrown everyone big & small in at the deep end and as of mid last week no one knew what they were doing.... we needed a deal or no deal to be established long before the transition period was over to be able to get things sorted & systems in place.

I have suspended EU shipping for my business as we currently are still working out what its going to cost us & the issues at the border are not settling down yet.... my EU suppliers (wood, metalwork, etc) have all done the same but some of them are now considering completely stopping UK supply as the turn over for the Uk alone is not looking like its worth the workload.... i understand this ass im looking at the same quandary

my advice to anyone right now, is hold off buying anything from the EU if you can.... we need suppliers, couriers/import/export agents & the boarder teams to actualy work out what they arer doing & what it costs, at this time we are flying by the skin of our pants.


----------



## Noel

starlingwood said:


> I had a quote the other day for about 600EUROS of castors from Germany and they wanted to slap a 42EURO 'customs declaration' charge on the order. I thought UK-EU agreed a FTA at the 11th hour?



Trade agreements and customs are separate matters. 
A Free Trade Agreement is free of tariffs (at least of those goods that have been covered in the agreement). Customs on the other hand protects the market the trade agreement covers.
I think as time goes on NTBs, such as ROO, Accumulation, Quotas etc will impact more than many think.


----------



## AJB Temple

doctor Bob said:


> or the EU collapses completely as more countries leave, just another guess.


I kind of agree with this, but I think the trigger may be currency support issues. My wife is German and we live in Germany some of the time (or at least we did when travel was not restricted). Talking to Germans and reading the German press, their patience with supporting the weak economies in the Southern and fringe areas of the EU is wearing thin. When Mrs Merkel goes, and we have new German leadership, we may see a less tolerant approach. Despite media posturing, in attitude the Germans generally are not big fans of the French and are more aligned with British attitudes. 

However, it does make sense for the EU to try to keep a trading bloc together, as it gives far more leverage on a world stage.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

Simplistically, Brexit has thrown up two immediate problems:

VAT payments - admin is now similar to imports from non-EU where broadly VAT is due on import (ignoring special schemes)
Increased paperwork needs to be paid for either by an import/export surcharge, increased price, or reduced profit
Had there been two or three months to get things sorted, there would be far fewer problems. Two or three days was quite inadequate.

Paperwork costs of (say) £50 would be trivial in the contect of a £20k order, but are a real burden on small value transactions.

Neither of these will be an issue in a year (probably much less). We will (a) get used to the new status quo, (b) the rules may change to make it less of an issue, or (c) we will simply change behaviours.

In any event, getting terribly excited and emotional about is it a complete waste of energy. We can't cancel Brexit.


----------



## Benchwayze

Daniel2 said:


> Is it too simple to not read, or participate in, threads which you find upsetting ?



*Daniel...

To not read?* Don't you mean to ignore?

Yes it would be simple to ignore, and up until now that's what I have done. But we can all reach a breaking point. This is a woodworking forum. There's room for other interesting subjects of course, but it's time to ban politics and religion; neither of which are interesting, unless one favours dissent and moaning on the site. 
Thanks for your input. You comment is noted; just noted.
John


----------



## artie

Daniel2 said:


> Is it too simple to not read, or participate in, threads which you find upsetting ?


This is a recurring theme which usually gets pointed out to members just before they flounce off in a huff


----------



## doctor Bob

artie said:


> .................................... just before they flounce off in a huff



followed by this sort of announcement, standard practice on all forums, bit sad.


----------



## ivan

Yes, I wish we were still in, and no, I am not winging about it. What I do winge about is the distinct lack of promised golden upland on the horizon, and the growing realisation that those who promised the golden future have absolutely no idea what it might look like or from whence it will come. How inspiring is that? Further, insightful commentators can already see ways those at the top of the pile are getting richer, and quite quickly too, whilst the rest of us are rummaging around in the dark (and covid) trying to work out what is going on...
Personally I think that to earn the adjective "civilsed", any country should: take care of the sick, elderly, vulnerable, and give a help in hard times. This can be done without creating dependancy.


----------



## Richard_C

The EU had a VAT netting arrangement, a seller in say France could charge VAT under a common EU VAT registration and by magic sales to the UK would result in VAT ending up in our Treasury. We aren't in that club now, so the trader has to register for a UK VAT account in order to trade here. Many won't. 

Even Rees-Mogg said that it could take 50 years before we see the economic benefits of Brexit. I'm really looking forward to it, I'll be 118 and my children will be retired. So too will be most of the people old enough to vote in 2016. Meanwhile we fill in forms and remove the fillings from our sandwiches. 

The referendum was simplistic, it would have been possible to honour it by leaving the EU (political union) but remain in both the single market and the customs union. A small influential group within the ruling party made sure we left all 3. So:


We have left the political union of the EU in line with what the people wanted.
Our leaders have chosen to leave the single market, but have negotiated a tariff free trade agreement for goods.
Our leaders have chosen to leave the customs union and have chosen to apply customs duties. 
I accept 1 and am not complaining. Nobody voted for 2 and 3. 

Back to the original post, there are practical things and extra costs to consider if you buy stuff from the EU.


----------



## billw

Well I suppose it's lucky that China isn't in the EU else we'd never be able to buy a new powertool again.


----------



## D_W

billw said:


> That's sounding like the company charging you for their time and effort in filling out paperwork. Nothing in any agreement that stops this from happening.



That happens even in the united states in some cases. the least effective group as far as charging fees or even collecting customs duties in connection with the service fees is the USPS. US customs levies the fees, but the post office is responsible for collecting them. I guess they don't share money with each other because the collection rate on customs duties passed along to the USPS is about 40%.


----------



## RobinBHM

Benchwayze said:


> Was this drivel aimed at me Robin?Are you saying if I don't know what the outcome will be on any subject I shouldn't vote for anything? That is truly nonsense. People vote with their heart all the time. Especially the young. And I should check your predictive text. There is now and theŕe is know. You know?
> John



I apologise if you are getting upset, I thought it a perfectly reasonable point to make.

I was merely pointing out the contradictory nature of your argument.

You are saying: "you don't know how it's going to turn out"
Yet you voted presumably with the belief there would be benefits.
If you didn't, why vote for it?


----------



## RobinBHM

starlingwood said:


> I had a quote the other day for about 600EUROS of castors from Germany and they wanted to slap a 42EURO 'customs declaration' charge on the order. I thought UK-EU agreed a FTA at the 11th hour?



The consequences of leaving the Single Market as set out in the Withdrawal,Agreement in 2019 has meant serious non tariff barriers between the UK and it's largest trade partner we're always inevitable.

Non tariff barriers are a greater hindrance to trade and more costly than tariffs.

The EU has gone much further than any other trade bloc anywhere in the world to eliminate non tariff barriers.

I used to import Siberian Larch from Germany and it was literally as easy as ordering it from a company in Essex.

The European Union front loaded bureaucracy by harmonising regulations (EU red tape).....which then removed bureaucracy from businesses who could trade freely.

Brexit has achieved the strange thing of theoretically removing the red tape of harmonised regulations and standards, but does so by imposing massive red tape onto business.


Sadly the Brexit campaign has focused entirely on sovereignty and freedom (non tangible and meaningless) instead of focusing on the practical issues of customs declarations, transit documents, rules of origin (very tangible).


----------



## Benchwayze

Robin.
Who said I did vote for 'It'. I might not have voted at all. I didn't vote in the election just gone. I was taken ill at the wrong time; too late to make arrangements. I was pretty sure what that result was going to be, but that doesn't indicate which way I would have voted. I believe you assumed I voted leave because I was fed up with the bickering over the result. It isn't beyond the bounds of possibility that even staunch remainers can be fed up with the problems.
No offence but I don't quite see your point in your last paragraph.
Because I can't foresee a result I should not vote? And as I said if you think I was on one side or the other from my original post that's a case of misinterpretation. I did say WE LOST not YOU LOST.
Now I've had enough bickering thank you. So just let's bury this hatchet please. My apologies too. For my short fuse.

John


----------



## Jake

Benchwayze said:


> Robin.
> Who said I did vote for 'It'. I might not have voted at all.



You did.


----------



## Jake

doctor Bob said:


> followed by this sort of announcement, standard practice on all forums, bit sad.



C'mon Bob, you have to admit there's nothing like a good flounce from a proper flouncer.


----------



## Jake

Narrator: "It wasn't."



Benchwayze said:


> Now I am incensed. How the he'll can you presume to know which way I voted? Look at my original post. I said WE LOST not YOU LOST. That might be a clue or it might not be. It's my business not yours


----------



## Jake

Noel said:


> Trade agreements and customs are separate matters.
> A Free Trade Agreement is free of tariffs (at least of those goods that have been covered in the agreement). Customs on the other hand protects the market the trade agreement covers.
> I think as time goes on NTBs, such as ROO, Accumulation, Quotas etc will impact more than many think.



Big problems for much of business, perhaps especially services (lucky we don't do much of those) but also anything with complex supply chains or which imports stuff from ROW to export to EU markets.


----------



## Skingdom

billw said:


> Will duty free shops be making a come back?


let's hope so


----------



## Benchwayze

Jake said:


> You did.
> 
> View attachment 100799


Copy of PM to Jake.

Jack/Jake or whatever your name is>

Are you deliberately seeking to cause trouble? It seems so. I apologised to Robin for my short fuse, hoping to close the issue.
Your meddling has opened it up again. This meddling was done with intent to embarrass me, for no reason other than to make yourself look bigger than you really are.
As far as I can tell, the post you dug up is from a time when my wife was at home, and she has now been in care for almost 5 years.
I hope you are satisfied with how clever you think you are. I can't find words low enough to describe your actions on this.

What I said eight years ago might now have no bearing on this particular thread. 
What I voted for has absolutely NOTHING to do with you, so keep out of that territory.

JW


----------



## Benchwayze

Jake said:


> C'mon Bob, you have to admit there's nothing like a good flounce from a proper flouncer.


Overt troublemaker... From the security afforded by the PC!


----------



## Jake

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen leavers caught to be pretending to be remainers to assist their arguments. I don't think I've ever seen the reverse.


----------



## Jake

Benchwayze said:


> Overt troublemaker... From the security afforded by the PC!



It wasn't actually about you at all Benchwayzer. It was a post in memoriam of flouncers past.


----------



## Benchwayze

Your recent grave digging was about me. So please drop it. Altogether.


----------



## Jake

You do know your posts on here are public right? You've just been held accountable for them by contrasting X with Y, that's all. That was about you, yes.

The other post was not.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your wife.


----------



## Benchwayze

Nah. This meddling is about you and your desire to gloat and be seen doing it. Kudos to you. Bask while you may. Acknowledge your sympathies. Eos


----------



## Jake

No, it's about you trying to pretend to be a remainer so you could say that remainers should be on board the Brexit programme now and should stop holding the decision to Brexit to account by examining its problems, failings, irreconcilable contradictions and impossibilist ambitions. Sorry but that is not going to happen and there is nothing that entitles you to ask for us to do that. Trying to slip in as a "we" isn't going to change that.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

I think this thread is providing a real service to contributors who seem to be going through the conventional stages of loss:

denial
anger 
bargaining
depression
acceptance
Being able to express ones emotions is often regarded as helpful. Most have done the denial bit and are now somewhere in the middle three.

Even Brexiteers may have similar feelings. Despite having got the outcome they voted for, it is not delivering the benefits they may have expected, only problems they hadn't anticipated..

The battle is over. As a remainer I lost. I don't want to waste any time or energy on the first four. It happened, get used to it, and move on.

I know this is unsympathetic - so apologies who those who feel I am being insensitive.


----------



## Jake

We are not in an end state Terry. We are at the start of a journey. If we do not look around us at where we are, we can't fix the things that will need to be fixed. The current deal doesn't touch the sides of doing that, even on its own terms. This is not emotional longing to be an MS again, it is just a recognition that there is serious damage coming down the track if we do not fix things like security cooperation, data adequacy, services access to mention but a few.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> C'mon Bob, you have to admit there's nothing like a good flounce from a proper flouncer.


You are right, flouncing can sometimes be funny, it's just a bit sad that basically through nit picking and acting as a gang, you managed to upset a good member of our community. You all understood the post, just acted all high and mighty "I'm better than thou, because I know my geographical terms". Most times a flouncer will receive my waving emoji, however here I see a bunch of smug old men patting themselves on the back for upseting a good member of the forum.


----------



## Noel

But we knew what we voted for......
Yeah right. Man who voted for internal UK border complains about internal UK border...... Better not mention fish to him.....


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> The European Union front loaded bureaucracy by harmonising regulations (EU red tape).....which then removed bureaucracy from businesses who could trade freely.
> 
> Brexit has achieved the strange thing of theoretically removing the red tape of harmonised regulations and standards, but does so by imposing massive red tape onto business.


Very nicely summarised. I suppose that with anti-London sentiment in much of the rest of the UK we can eventually look to a removal of their red tape and regulations, and each of our counties can be free to choose on which side of the road they'll drive, and which pin gets wired to what on a mains plug 

(Yea, it's a silly suggestion, but it's only taking a silly step we've already taken to the next level)




Noel said:


> But we knew what we voted for......
> Yeah right. Man who voted for internal UK border complains about internal UK border...... Better not mention fish to him.....


Fairly certain Redwood was one of the "bar stewards" (sic) as referred to by John Major. Says all that needs to be said really.


----------



## Droogs

sploo said:


> and which pin gets wired to what on a mains plug



Does that really matter sploo as it's usually really dark when I have to wire one back up


----------



## sploo

Droogs said:


> Does that really matter sploo as it's usually really dark when I have to wire one back up


Yea, that's a fair point. You can just keep trying until you find the one that works . Like this:


----------



## msparker

Apologies, I'm sure this is somewhere in the thread but I couldn't see it in the pages I scanned. I just ordered some nails and a dovetail saw from Dictum, I was not charged VAT. Have I walked into a bit of a trap here? is there going to be a massive faff to get the parcel and extra cost (above VAT)?


----------



## Droogs

You are more tan likely gonna have to stump up when UPS or whomever deliver before you get the package


----------



## billw

msparker said:


> Apologies, I'm sure this is somewhere in the thread but I couldn't see it in the pages I scanned. I just ordered some nails and a dovetail saw from Dictum, I was not charged VAT. Have I walked into a bit of a trap here? is there going to be a massive faff to get the parcel and extra cost (above VAT)?



Probably. Or they might just throw in into the sea.


----------



## D_W

sploo said:


> Yea, that's a fair point. You can just keep trying until you find the one that works . Like this:




somewhere around 3:00 was predictable!! seen that in physics lab when a person who told me they were going to be an electrical engineer in college didn't believe that you could bend a paper clip into something that would cause trouble with the outlet on the lab table. So, he bent a large paper clip into three prongs and inserted it into the outlet, it made the same noise and flew across the back of the room clanging into the wall "Ping!!!!".

I have no idea how the dude didn't get fried. Tips of the paperclip were melted into little ball shapes, just a little, but enough to see - and black stuff like that around the outlet.

Fortunately, our teacher was elderly and heard the sound, turned around and looked for a second, and then went back to writing on the board.

(the event didn't throw a breaker, because this is the USA and we don't need it to be that safe, especially in public schools where we are filtering out the dummies).


----------



## eribaMotters

That would mean it would be more expensive as UK vat is 20%.
I'm fed up as since 1999 we have gone to France each summer for between 2 and 6 weeks and now have to think what we take with us when camping. I enjoy cooking and prep and freeze a fair bit to take with us, so I can spend more on the great fresh produce they have. I cannot do this any more. I cannot even take a first night meal to heat up after driving 600+ miles towing a caravan. After a journey like that all you want to do is unload, do a basic set-up and have a drink and simple meal before a good sleep.
And don't get me started on wine. Some years I'd brought back up to 180L in wine boxes, enough for a year and a few festive gatherings. Now it's 18L each.

Colin


----------



## artie

It's not only the 20% VAT, there'll be a tenner for the courier for collecting the VAT


----------



## RobinBHM

eribaMotters said:


> That would mean it would be more expensive as UK vat is 20%.
> I'm fed up as since 1999 we have gone to France each summer for between 2 and 6 weeks and now have to think what we take with us when camping. I enjoy cooking and prep and freeze a fair bit to take with us, so I can spend more on the great fresh produce they have. I cannot do this any more. I cannot even take a first night meal to heat up after driving 600+ miles towing a caravan. After a journey like that all you want to do is unload, do a basic set-up and have a drink and simple meal before a good sleep.
> And don't get me started on wine. Some years I'd brought back up to 180L in wine boxes, enough for a year and a few festive gatherings. Now it's 18L each.
> 
> Colin



My bugbear is loss of pet passports. I don't like going away without my dog so going across to Calais and onwards to Brittany or further South was a lovely foreign holiday with my dog.


----------



## Noel

Sadly you cannot leave the island of GB with a pet without incurring time, cost, certificates and other formalities.


----------



## RobinBHM

Aa


Terry - Somerset said:


> I think this thread is providing a real service to contributors who seem to be going through the conventional stages of loss:
> 
> denial
> anger
> bargaining
> depression
> acceptance
> Being able to express ones emotions is often regarded as helpful. Most have done the denial bit and are now somewhere in the middle three.
> 
> Even Brexiteers may have similar feelings. Despite having got the outcome they voted for, it is not delivering the benefits they may have expected, only problems they hadn't anticipated..
> 
> The battle is over. As a remainer I lost. I don't want to waste any time or energy on the first four. It happened, get used to it, and move on.
> 
> I know this is unsympathetic - so apologies who those who feel I am being insensitive.



I don't really agree, Im not bothered by Brexit itself.....the reality is it won't be as bad as one side say nor as good as one side says.

What I refuse to accept is the dishonest narrative used by the Brexiteer side that "you need to let it go, it's done"

Brexit has literally only just happened...for 4 years all the Brexit arguments have taken place whilst the retained all the benefits of the Single Market.

Brexit reality has only been less than a fortnight.....and in that period pro Brexit MPs have been out in force making dishonest claims.


Sadly division in this country will only ramp up more this year....Brexiteers will become even more angry than they were last year. I've no doubt some remainers will too.


Until the leaders of Brexit start telling the truth there won't be any healing.


----------



## sploo

D_W said:


> somewhere around 3:00 was predictable!! seen that in physics lab when a person who told me they were going to be an electrical engineer in college didn't believe that you could bend a paper clip into something that would cause trouble with the outlet on the lab table. So, he bent a large paper clip into three prongs and inserted it into the outlet, it made the same noise and flew across the back of the room clanging into the wall "Ping!!!!".
> 
> I have no idea how the dude didn't get fried. Tips of the paperclip were melted into little ball shapes, just a little, but enough to see - and black stuff like that around the outlet.
> 
> Fortunately, our teacher was elderly and heard the sound, turned around and looked for a second, and then went back to writing on the board.
> 
> (the event didn't throw a breaker, because this is the USA and we don't need it to be that safe, especially in public schools where we are filtering out the dummies).


There's a comment on the video that sums it up nicely, "As a British electrician, I would like to congratulate you on not being dead.... against all odds"

I do remember sticking LEDs across the live an neutral pins of every socket in the DT room at school (with the master breaker off), then turning it on. Great firework display. Not so great smell


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> Until the leaders of Brexit start telling the truth there won't be any healing.


That'll never happen though will it; they need to maintain the narrative that we could have achieved utopia, if it weren't for the evil EU.

Some will do that because they are smart enough to understand the con (at least, even if they were mostly ignorant of the actual details of trade and law), and others (based on some of the silly comments made over the last few years) will actually believe it to be true.


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> That'll never happen though will it; they need to maintain the narrative that we could have achieved utopia, if it weren't for the evil EU.
> 
> Some will do that because they are smart enough to understand the con (at least, even if they were mostly ignorant of the actual details of trade and law), and others (based on some of the silly comments made over the last few years) will actually believe it to be true.



We now have the oversimplified, "Brexit got done" narrative, as though it's as simple as having a new government, job done, nothing more to think about.....one side moaning other side happy.

It is not.

What we have is the beginning: Brexit false arguments and gaslighting will carry on but running parallel will be Brexit reality (which Brexiteers don't want discussed somare framing it as moaning)

So we will get MPs saying: "there is no trade friction NI to GB, just teething troubles".....but on the ground there will be businesses having real problems.....problems which won't go away, the cost increases and delays will impact business, people's jobs, the economy. 

I wonder how Brexiteers will feel in a few years.....about that extra freedom and sovereignty they voted for. What will happen when they realise it amounts to nothing?


----------



## Droogs

I wonder how they will feel when they realize their arrogance voted their country away and consigned it to oblivion. All they have done is prove the suspicion that for the most part, the idea of the UK is a load of guano


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> I wonder how Brexiteers will feel in a few years.....about that extra freedom and sovereignty they voted for. What will happen when they realise it amounts to nothing?





Droogs said:


> I wonder how they will feel when they realize their arrogance voted their country away and consigned it to oblivion. All they have done is prove the suspicion that for the most part, the idea of the UK is a load of guano


From the Brexit "leaders" I suspect it'll just be a continuation of misleading statements, mixed with gaslighting. It would be policital suicide to publicly admit it's a failure.

From the supporters... I suspect a majority will consider it some form of job done (and after all, "we" won). Given the lack of understanding of most of the pros and cons of EU membership (from all sides) I suspect that for many, the negative impacts of leaving the EU won't be that visible. Combine that with the Brexit leaders gaslighting and I doubt that many will be aware of the problems.

The lack of sunlit uplands and availability of personal unicorns can easily be passed off as the fault of the EU/remoaners/Corbyn's left testicle; so that probably won't be a problem either.


----------



## Droogs

Well Sploo I agree with most of what you said but from where I'm looking down on the UK, to me, every one of those who touted a vote for Brexit is an anti unionist and has actively engaged in an act to destroy the union, *especially the ERG.* Afterall they have turned this unionist into a very reluctant but no longer reversable separatist with regards to the UK as the only way for my "nation" to have the form of governance it wants to no longer be a part of that union but part of another with much more socially aware people


----------



## Ditch 08

I believe that when the Vote happened, as in most elections the vote was against what was there for something different, one of the main things that people believed would change was illegal immigrants, coming over from France and the EU criminals that could just come over. Also the EU had been set up as a gravy train for failed Politicians who wanted power. (look at Nigel F). The Accounts have never been signed off, what has happened to all that money too many fingers in the pie me thinks.

The EU have needed to make it hard to discourage others from leaving and we hear a number do. Then there are those whos books never equaled what was required to join (got in at a discount).

I am afraid that the first benefit not being in the EU is the pandemic, we have been able to get what we require and currently we have Vax'ed more than the whole EU put together.

We did not vote to join the EU but we did vote to join the EEC. If we could have gone back to that then I would have voted EEC.


----------



## sploo

Droogs said:


> Well Sploo I agree with most of what you said but from where I'm looking down on the UK, to me, every one of those who touted a vote for Brexit is an anti unionist and has actively engaged in an act to destroy the union, *especially the ERG.* Afterall they have turned this unionist into a very reluctant but no longer reversable separatist with regards to the UK as the only way for my "nation" to have the form of governance it wants to no longer be a part of that union but part of another with much more socially aware people


I don't think they did it deliberately though. If you look at the cr*p they (the ERG) came out with regarding solutions to the ROI/NI border (long after the vote was done) I suspect they a) weren't aware of the problem they'd cause in the first place, b) had absolutely no understanding of trade or border rules.

Obviously that doesn't make it OK, and I'm sure there are those who backed Brexit who were aware of some of the issues that could have been caused, but certainly when you look at the swivel-eyed loons in the ERG I doubt they know much about anything.

I do find it tragically amusing though that it's probably increased the chances of a future united Ireland, and right now I wouldn't blame Scotland for voting for independence - despite my sadness that it might happen.


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> I don't they did it deliberately though. If you look at the cr*p they (the ERG) came out with regarding solutions to the ROI/NI border (long after the vote was done) I suspect they a) weren't aware of the problem they'd cause in the first place, b) had absolutely no understanding of trade or border rules.
> 
> Obviously that doesn't make it OK, and I'm sure there are those who backed Brexit who were aware of some of the issues that could have been caused, but certainly when you look at the swivel-eyed loons in the ERG I doubt they know much about anything.
> 
> I do find it tragically amusing though that it's probably increased the chances of a future united Ireland, and right now I wouldn't blame Scotland for voting for independence - despite my sadness that it might happen.


Looking ahead - a united Ireland and Scotland together could be the future. Wales would be tempted to join, leaving little England as an eccentric xenophobic enclave, run by old Etonians and the landed gentry.


----------



## Noel

Ditch 08 said:


> I believe that when the Vote happened, as in most elections the vote was against what was there for something different, one of the main things that people believed would change was illegal immigrants*, coming over from France and the EU criminals that could just come over.* Also the EU had been set up as a gravy train for failed Politicians who wanted power. (look at Nigel F). * The Accounts have never been signed off*_,_ what has happened to all that money too many fingers in the pie me thinks.
> 
> *The EU have needed to make it hard to discourage others from leaving and we hear a number do.* Then there are those whos books never equaled what was required to join (got in at a discount).
> 
> I am afraid that the first benefit not being in the EU is the pandemic, we have been able to get what we require and currently we have Vax'ed more than the whole EU put together.
> 
> We did not vote to join the EU but we did vote to join the EEC. If we could have gone back to that then I would have voted EEC.



The UK had the right and the option to refuse or deport anybody, they just didn't bother putting in the infrastructure to do so.
The accounts have been signed off, by the Court of Auditors, certainly for the past 10 yrs as far as I recall.
Out of interest - "_The EU have needed to make it hard to discourage others from leaving and we hear a number do" _What have they done and what states are leaving?
I'd say your statement that "we have Vax'ed more than the whole EU put together..." is just about out of date. Was your UK claim for one shot or two?


----------



## JohnPW

msparker said:


> Apologies, I'm sure this is somewhere in the thread but I couldn't see it in the pages I scanned. I just ordered some nails and a dovetail saw from Dictum, I was not charged VAT. Have I walked into a bit of a trap here? is there going to be a massive faff to get the parcel and extra cost (above VAT)?


I think for consignments of under £135 you pay VAT to Dictum, then they give the VAT to the UK govt.

Over £135, you pay VAT to Royal Mail/courier plus a handling fee, ie the seller's price won't include VAT. You might have to pay import duties as well.


----------



## Noel

JohnPW said:


> I think for consignments of under £135 you pay VAT to the Dictum, then they give the VAT to the UK govt.
> 
> Over £135, you pay VAT to Royal Mail/courier plus a handling fee, ie the seller's price won't include VAT. You might have to pay import duties as well.



I think it's up to the vendor/retailer. They can charge MWSt if they want to but you'll still be charged UK VAT. There's no rule/regulation that insists that an EU seller signs up to be an unpaid collector of tax for the HMRC. This was a whizz idea by HMRC/HMT, nothing do do with the Dec 3oth Trade and Cooperation Agreement.


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> Looking ahead - a united Ireland and Scotland together could be the future. Wales would be tempted to join, leaving little England as an eccentric xenophobic enclave, run by old Etonians and the landed gentry.



And dealing with a huge contingent of unproductive but loudly complaining citizens who want to convince everyone else left that they're working hard for nothing.


----------



## billw

Are there any examples of companies coming to GB because we’ve left the EU? Genuine question because all I’ve seen is leavers. Might be the media bias I experience so wonder if anyone’s heard differently?


----------



## Jacob

billw said:


> Are there any examples of companies coming to GB because we’ve left the EU? Genuine question because all I’ve seen is leavers. Might be the media bias I experience so wonder if anyone’s heard differently?


I'd be very surprised! 
I've been asking for a long time if anybody can identify any real benefit affecting them, or their business, in any way, i.e. not hypothetical pie in the sky.
Dead silence!


----------



## RobinBHM

Ditch 08 said:


> I am afraid that the first benefit not being in the EU is the pandemic, we have been able to get what we require and currently we have Vax'ed more than the whole EU put together



EU rules allow nation states to allow vaccines to be used before EMA approval.

The UK could've still been the first to start vaccinating whilst an EU member

So not a Brexit benefit.


----------



## RobinBHM

Ditch 08 said:


> The Accounts have never been signed off


Actually this is a very old Brexit claim that is not true and never has been.

Like all things Brexit the details are important.









Is the EU’s budget ‘signed off’ by auditors? - Full Fact


It’s often argued both that the EU’s budget hasn’t been signed off by the auditors for years, and that it’s consistently given a clean bill of health.




fullfact.org


----------



## RobinBHM

Ditch 08 said:


> main things that people believed would change was illegal immigrants, coming over from France and the EU criminals that could just come over



Sadly Brexit means less ability of UK to control its borders not more.

The UK no longer has access to Schengen Information system, so it can't easily search to find who people are.

Also UK has lost European Arrest Warrant, so we may have to go back to the old fashioned extradition system.


----------



## billw

RobinBHM said:


> Sadly Brexit means less ability of UK to control its borders not more.
> 
> The UK no longer has access to Schengen Information system, so it can't easily search to find who people are.
> 
> Also UK has lost European Arrest Warrant, so we may have to go back to the old fashioned extradition system.


Isn’t Gibraltar in Schengen now? We could just ask them


----------



## RobinBHM

billw said:


> Isn’t Gibraltar in Schengen now? We could just ask them


Good thinking!


----------



## jcassidy

Just a note, in the Irish papers it's reported that DHL tried to charge a €42 charge fie online purchases from Arnotts department store which is owned by Selfridge's and has goods in warehouses in UK. 
Arnotts said DHL had no business charging their customers and have reimbursed. DHL blame the client (I.e. Arnotts/Selfridge's) for providing the wrong paperwork. Lol


----------



## Noel

billw said:


> Are there any examples of companies coming to GB because we’ve left the EU? Genuine question because all I’ve seen is leavers. Might be the media bias I experience so wonder if anyone’s heard differently?



Lots, tonnes of companies, hundreds of multi nationals setting up in GB, the list is endless, there's a queue, DfT is overwhelmed, telephone never stops, switchboard is overloaded, extra staff taken on. Look at the sit vac ads, never ending lists and columns of wanted ads, it's anticipated that there simply won't be enough people in the country to fill all the positions created. It's amazing, amazing I tell you.


----------



## Jacob

OTOH fishermen in Eyemouth on TV this evening complaining about compete halt to their trade.
Other north english and Scottish fishing ports in the same boat.
A lot of their trade is specialised; shellfish, lobster, etc which used to go straight in to frig lorries and off to France in 24 hours. Mallaig is a big one for this and serves the western islands and Hebrides fishing industry. Continuous flow of huge fridge artics up and down the A830 - very improved over recent years to serve the trade
Now stopped dead, due to paper work and other formalities - as many people predicted four years ago, and have been saying ever since.
Tragic, stupid, predicted, but forecasts loudly denied by Johnson and co.


----------



## Noel

__





Subscribe to read | Financial Times


News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




t.co


----------



## doctor Bob

are you very hairy Noel?
I'm currently doing a PHD on political leanings and hairyness.


----------



## RobinBHM

Jacob said:


> OTOH fishermen in Eyemouth on TV this evening complaining about compete halt to their trade.
> Other north english and Scottish fishing ports in the same boat.
> A lot of their trade is specialised; shellfish, lobster, etc which used to go straight in to frig lorries and off to France in 24 hours. Mallaig is a big one for this and serves the western islands and Hebrides fishing industry. Continuous flow of huge fridge artics up and down the A830 - very improved over recent years to serve the trade
> Now stopped dead, due to paper work and other formalities - as many people predicted four years ago, and have been saying ever since.
> Tragic, stupid, predicted, but forecasts loudly denied by Johnson and co.



Dismissed as "teething troubles"......

A bit can be put down to that, but delays and cost increases will be permanent and many industries in many sectors will have to make significant changes.....which will mean some businesses closing, some moving to be inside SM and some laying staff off.

That's the consequence of shrinking your frictionless market from $19trillion down to $2.5trillion


----------



## Jake

Compare and contrast:









Government to enshrine workers' rights pledge in new bill, Number 10 confirms


A promise by Boris Johnson not to water down workers' rights after the UK leaves the EU is to be enshrined in a new law, it has emerged.




www.politicshome.com


----------



## doctor Bob

I have trouble with some cross posting on various threads by some members.
Some want business shut down in the covid thread, every life counts and all that. Then in this thread business loses 2-5 days trading and it's game over for them.

You need to make your minds up, and stick to your views, you cannot argue one point on one thread and a completely different stance on another. Some of you are purely politically motivated, to me it smacks of selfishness.
The world is in crisis, who gives two tosses about political point scoring on a woodworking forum, to be honest I real feel as though a few on here have issues, good luck to you and I hope you can come through this.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> are you very hairy Noel?
> I'm currently doing a PHD on political leanings and hairyness.


You forgot sandal-wearing Bob.

But... let's be honest; pointing out a bunch of promises made (and warnings repeatedly dismissed) isn't really anything to do with political leanings. Indeed, I'm not sure I could really identify Boris' political beliefs (as I suspect he doesn't really have any). It's not about left vs right, or authoritarianism vs libertarianism; it's about the deceptions of a bunch of lying charlatans, and the realities of the problems they've caused.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> I have trouble with some cross posting on various threads by some members.
> Some want business shut down in the covid thread, every life counts and all that. Then in this thread business loses 2-5 days trading and it's game over for them.
> 
> You need to make your minds up, and stick to your views, you cannot argue one point on one thread and a completely different stance on another. Some of you are purely politically motivated, to me it smacks of selfishness.
> The world is in crisis, who gives two tosses about political point scoring on a woodworking forum, to be honest I real feel as though a few on here have issues, good luck to you and I hope you can come through this.


That's both a fair point, and a somewhat misguided one. The problems caused (for business) by Brexit are likely to be long term - and entirely self-inflicted (by the nation). Sure we'll get the procedures streamlined in time, but there will be a negative impact to costs for the foreseeable future.

In hand with that, right now we have a global pandemic, and NHS hospitals are seriously struggling. Closing businesses to try to reduce transmission of the virus in the short to medium term (weeks to months) isn't a hypocrisy vs complaining about the problems caused to businesses by Brexit.

Absolutely, some of those businesses may not survive several weeks of lockdown; which is absolutely terrible, and no fault whatsoever of the owners.


----------



## doctor Bob

Rubbish


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Rubbish


Well... not really. But I respect your right to disagree.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> Well... not really. But I respect your right to disagree.


Well it is and I also respect your rights.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Well it is and I also respect your rights.


That's fine - it's just there's not much meat to the argument (not that I'm trying to have an argument - just trying to get the point across that the two negative impacts on business have different causes, likely different length of impact, and different reasons for impact).

It's not hypocrisy to want to try to reduce virus transmission by shutting down (hopefully temporarily), and at the same time being annoyed at the extra load on a business due to Brexit (regardless of whether that individual voted for or against Brexit... and none of us voted for Covid).


----------



## doctor Bob

It is hypocracy, but I respect your rights.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> It is hypocracy, but I respect your rights.


No it's hypocrisy with an 'i'.
It isn't though, it's a conflict of interests.


----------



## Rorschach

I might be placing my order earlier than expected so will be interesting to see how things go. Anybody here yet dealt with a 4 figure order?


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> I might be placing my order earlier than expected so will be interesting to see how things go. Anybody here yet dealt with a 4 figure order?


What order? Fish?


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> No it's hypocrisy with an 'i'.
> It isn't though, it's a conflict of interests.


Thank you, spelling correction is a sure sign you know you are wrong.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> What order? Fish?



Not fish, non-perishable goods.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> It is hypocracy, but I respect your rights.


How?

A business owner could say "I am temporarily closing my business to reduce the risk of Covid transmission to staff/customers, but I'm also annoyed about the extra load on my business due to the Brexit deal" (and that would even be fine if that owner had actually voted _for_ Brexit).

Similarly, a member of the public could be in favour of shutting down businesses temporarily (to reduce Covid transmission; not because they wish the business harm), and also be upset that those businesses would be hit by Brexit related red tape when they're running again.

Not an ounce of hypocrisy in those positions. I rather suspect it might be your political leanings coming in there Bob.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

The referendum was lost through complacency and an inability to communicate with voters. Brexiteers created an emotional playing field. Remainers believed rational argument would win the day. They were wrong.

The country then spent 4 years during which Remainers failed to put forward sufficiently compelling arguments to change the outcome.

In a final "roll of the dice" Remainers were trounced in a general election. They are as much the reason for the outcome as Brexiteers.

I was a remainer, and still think Brexit utterly foolish. But it has happened. Raking over old and obsolete arguments is a complete waste of energy. Get used to it. 

A losing football team may analyse the last match to understand why they lost - but they train to win the next one! Remainers should do the same - not continually re-run old lost arguments.


----------



## Jacob

Terry - Somerset said:


> ...... Remainers should do the same - not continually re-run old lost arguments.


We aren't though. We are looking at the scenario as it now is. 
The game never stops - nothing is fixed at it's a certainty that negotiations and changes will go on indefinitely, even more so (we hope) as problems show themselves


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> How?
> 
> A business owner could say "I am temporarily closing my business to reduce the risk of Covid transmission to staff/customers, but I'm also annoyed about the extra load on my business due to the Brexit deal" (and that would even be fine if that owner had actually voted _for_ Brexit).
> 
> Similarly, a member of the public could be in favour of shutting down businesses temporarily (to reduce Covid transmission; not because they wish the business harm), and also be upset that those businesses would be hit by Brexit related red tape when they're running again.
> 
> Not an ounce of hypocrisy in those positions. I rather suspect it might be your political leanings coming in there Bob.



I respect your right to talk rubbish, but you are wrong.


----------



## Noel

Terry - Somerset said:


> Simplistically, Brexit has thrown up two immediate problems:
> 
> VAT payments - admin is now similar to imports from non-EU where broadly VAT is due on import (ignoring special schemes)
> Increased paperwork needs to be paid for either by an import/export surcharge, increased price, or reduced profit
> Had there been two or three months to get things sorted, there would be far fewer problems. Two or three days was quite inadequate.
> 
> Paperwork costs of (say) £50 would be trivial in the contect of a £20k order, but are a real burden on small value transactions.
> 
> Neither of these will be an issue in a year (probably much less). We will (a) get used to the new status quo, (b) the rules may change to make it less of an issue, or (c) we will simply change behaviours.
> 
> In any event, getting terribly excited and emotional about is it a complete waste of energy. We can't cancel Brexit.



Can I have the name and number of your customs clearance agent? £50 is a bargain, does that include EurMed certs? Eur1 certs? T2L docs? RoO certs/evidence? 
Costs for exporter pre customs, cost for importer pre and during delivery?

Point is, saying "ah sure, 50 quid, what's the big deal?" just shows a complete lack of understanding.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> I respect your right to talk rubbish, but you are wrong.


OK... but can you explain then why that position is wrong? Just "rubbish" isn't really a particularly convincing argument.

In what way is it hypocritical to want to reduce virus transmission rates (accepting that will likely harm a business as a negative side effect), but also wish a business success (i.e. be annoyed at the negative consequences of Brexit on those businesses)?

I can understand how that position is going to frustrating to a business owner; but it's not a hypocritical position, because in both cases no harm is desired to the business. The former (closing due to Covid) is a reluctant acceptance of need due to exceptionally bad circumstances (i.e. the pandemic).


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> OK... but can you explain then why that position is wrong? Just "rubbish" isn't really a particularly convincing argument.



No one has convinced anyone of anything in 4+ years. Whether it be intellectual or not. 
Many years ago, I actually made the effort with a page long reasoning for why I voted to leave, it was my greatest piece of work ever. I didn't get one reply. However post on here that someone is spouting rubbish and it's incessant. It's the nature of a forum, pick and choose.


----------



## Jake

Rorschach said:


> Not fish, non-perishable goods.



Sounds like its relatively simple, high enough order value to justify the additional costs, only difference you should notice is some extra for the customs clearance and having the added VAT transaction like on an order from the States or wherever. Maybe some delay at the moment - hope they get the new paperwork right etc. 

Just like with Bob's business with some EU-made goods inputs and domestic aimed outputs. Simple cases.

Do you sell to the EU though? If so, what are your other inputs into your products (apart from your labour) and what is their country of origin? You will need when re-exporting to an EU customer to work out whether the rules of origin qualify your shipment within the FTA.


----------



## Rorschach

Jake said:


> Sounds like its relatively simple, high enough order value to justify the additional costs, only difference you should notice is some extra for the customs clearance and having the added VAT transaction like on an order from the States or wherever. Maybe some delay at the moment - hope they get the new paperwork right etc.
> 
> Just like with Bob's business with some EU-made goods inputs and domestic aimed outputs. Simple cases.
> 
> Do you sell to the EU though? If so, what are your other inputs into your products (apart from your labour) and what is their country of origin? You will need when re-exporting to an EU customer to work out whether the rules of origin qualify your shipment within the FTA.



I rarely sell back into the EU so I am not anticipating any problems there. 

I was just wondering if anyone had dealt with the VAT system yet. In the past of course it was just paid when ordering, not sure how that will work now. I am not too worried though, a bit of extra hassle the first time I expect.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> No one has convinced anyone of anything in 4+ years. Whether it be intellectual or not.
> Many years ago, I actually made the effort with a page long reasoning for why I voted to leave, it was my greatest piece of work ever. I didn't get one reply. However post on here that someone is spouting rubbish and it's incessant. It's the nature of a forum, pick and choose.


That's all kinda unrelated to the matter at hand, but I can understand the frustration in getting no response to a long post. My point is just that there's little value in an argument of "rubbish"; as it doesn't really help an understanding on why that position is held.


----------



## Jake

Rorschach said:


> I rarely sell back into the EU so I am not anticipating any problems there.
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone had dealt with the VAT system yet. In the past of course it was just paid when ordering, not sure how that will work now. I am not too worried though, a bit of extra hassle the first time I expect.



Should be OK then apart from the current border delays as long as they have their paperwork in order. You'll get a VAT invoice from the shipping company, as per importing from rest of world. The handling fee and having to deal with that extra transaction should be the only difference you notice. Simple case, like I said.


----------



## Noel

Rorschach said:


> I rarely sell back into the EU so I am not anticipating any problems there.
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone had dealt with the VAT system yet. In the past of course it was just paid when ordering, not sure how that will work now. I am not too worried though, a bit of extra hassle the first time I expect.



You VAT registered?


----------



## Rorschach

Noel said:


> You VAT registered?



Nope, my business is way too small for that.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> My point is just that there's little value in an argument of "rubbish"; as it doesn't really help an understanding on why that position is held.



Don't ***** yourself over that fact, you haven't understood my position held for nearly 5 years and vice versa.

I find the doom and gloom attitude rather frustrating and draining. This state of mind, that everything is a disaster can not be good for people. Do you work with people or are you a lone worker?


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Don't ***** yourself over that fact, you haven't understood my position held for nearly 5 years and vice versa.
> 
> I find the doom and gloom attitude rather frustrating and draining. This state of mind, that everything is a disaster can not be good for people. Do you work with people or are you a lone worker?


It's kinda hard to understand a position when the argument made is "rubbish".

I work with people. Over the course of my career; many many hundreds, from many different countries. Collaboration on scientific, tech, and consumer engineering projects. Working _with_ people is key. Positive collaboration leading to greater success; rather than isolationism.

The mad thing is that it's always been the Brexit position that's been the negative one (fear and distrust rather than positive building together). Pointing out the harmful impacts of that position is not negativity; it's making rational judgement of the likely outcome, based on the available evidence.

Now that it's happened (and surprise surprise the positives are thin on the ground, and many of the predicted negatives are plain to see), the response is that "we" are being negative, and we should all just move on and stop talking about it. Now that really is an argument that's rubbish.


----------



## artie

Terry - Somerset said:


> The referendum was lost through complacency and an inability to communicate with voters. Brexiteers created an emotional playing field. Remainers believed rational argument would win the day.


Unfortunately a lot of decisions are made as a result of sensationalism, guilt trips or just plain lies.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> It's kinda hard to understand a position when the argument made is "rubbish".
> 
> I work with people. Over the course of my career; many many hundreds, from many different countries. Collaboration on scientific, tech, and consumer engineering projects. Working _with_ people is key. Positive collaboration leading to greater success; rather than isolationism.
> 
> The mad thing is that it's always been the Brexit position that's been the negative one (fear and distrust rather than positive building together). Pointing out the harmful impacts of that position is not negativity; it's making rational judgement of the likely outcome, based on the available evidence.
> 
> Now that it's happened (and surprise surprise the positives are thin on the ground, and many of the predicted negatives are plain to see), the response is that "we" are being negative, and we should all just move on and stop talking about it. Now that really is an argument that's rubbish.



Not at all. It's just in 5 years I've never seen a glimpse of any positivity, in anything in your life. Even when I post that I'm quite happy you seem to knock that back. In REAL life i'm sure you are the life and soul of the party, just not on here. I guess that maybe an internet demeaner, I hope so. Do you really believe I have taken the negative position? if you do then our conversations are at an end as you really would be talking bolllloxs then. You have chastised me plenty of times for explaining that I'm as happy as a pig in poop and lucky that I can reflect back on some terrible times and realise how blessed I truely am.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Not at all. It's just in 5 years I've never seen a glimpse of any positivity, in anything in your life. Even when I post that I'm quite happy you seem to knock that back. In REAL life i'm sure you are the life and soul of the party, just not on here. I guess that maybe an internet demeaner, I hope so. Do you really believe I have taken the negative position? if you do then our conversations are at an end as you really would be talking bolllloxs then. You have chastised me plenty of times for explaining that I'm as happy as a pig in poop and lucky that I can reflect back on some terrible times and realise how blessed I truely am.


I dislike con-men, fraudsters and populists; people who take advantage of others for their own personal gain (frequently at the detriment of those they're conning); hence my dislike of Brexit. If more people called out the BS merchants they (hopefully) wouldn't be so successful.

I've been lucky enough to benefit from some of the opportunities that an integrated Europe has brought (and I'm grateful and very positive about it). The fact we've taken away many of those benefits from ourselves and our children (in order for a tiny minority to - possibly - benefit) is tragic.

An individual may be positive or negative, but the negative _position_ is supporting isolationism and separation; especially when that's been based on lies and fear. And yes, even if that's been done with a smile.

PS I see even the Telegraph is now reporting that Boris is considering "changes" to the working time directive; another warning that was absolutely Project Fear and would never happen. But I suppose bringing that up would be considered negative.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> I dislike con-men, fraudsters and populists; people who take advantage of others for their own personal gain (frequently at the detriment of those they're conning); hence my dislike of Brexit. If more people called out the BS merchants they (hopefully) wouldn't be so successful.
> 
> I've been lucky enough to benefit from some of the opportunities that an integrated Europe has brought (and I'm grateful and very positive about it). The fact we've taken away many of those benefits from ourselves and our children (in order for a tiny minority to - possibly - benefit) is tragic.
> 
> An individual may be positive or negative, but the negative _position_ is supporting isolationism and separation; especially when that's been based on lies and fear. And yes, even if that's been done with a smile.
> 
> PS I see even the Telegraph is now reporting that Boris is considering "changes" to the working time directive; another warning that was absolutely Project Fear and would never happen. But I suppose bringing that up would be considered negative.



Do what you want Sploo, your demeaner / manner / life disposition is your choice. Some people are built that way, others not.

P.S. not sure, but are we playing the "last word" game again?


----------



## Rorschach

Jake said:


> Should be OK then apart from the current border delays as long as they have their paperwork in order. You'll get a VAT invoice from the shipping company, as per importing from rest of world. The handling fee and having to deal with that extra transaction should be the only difference you notice. Simple case, like I said.



Yep, it's only duty that might be a problem, although if it is only a couple of % that isn't an issue.


----------



## Jake

Rorschach said:


> Yep, it's only duty that might be a problem, although if it is only a couple of % that isn't an issue.



Are these EU made goods?


----------



## Rorschach

Jake said:


> Are these EU made goods?



It's raw materials but yes. 

From my contact with the supplier it looks like I will be paying extra. The prices are the same as I paid before Brexit, but now I will have to pay VAT when it arrives. So I am guessing either they don't want to deal with the hassle or (more likely) they were never paying proper VAT in the first place. That's Greeks for ya! lol.


----------



## Jake

Simple again then, no duty. Duty would only apply if the rules of origin didn't cover it. Say if the Greek seller actually imports it from Turkey and doesn't do anything more than repackage it and sell it to you - *and* customs find out.


----------



## Rorschach

Jake said:


> Simple again then, no duty. Duty would only apply if the rules of origin didn't cover it. Say if the Greek seller actually imports it from Turkey and doesn't do anything more than repackage it and sell it to you - *and* customs find out.



I'll let you know how I get on. Will be interesting to see how the Greeks handle the tax given their reputation.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> I find the doom and gloom attitude rather frustrating and draining



I agree the doom and gloom and endless whining from Brexiteers over the last few years has been dreadful.

One might imagine having left the EU they might be happy....but no.

Last year they moaned endlessly about the "EU being bullies"
Now they are still moaning because people have the temerity to discuss the inevitable problems of Brexit reality.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> Some people are built that way, others not



You are conflating the debating of Brexit with ones emotional state.

Just because Sploo does not believe it is acceptable for fraudsters to not be scrutinised for their con, does not in any way give a clue to his outlook on life.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> You are conflating the debating of Brexit with ones emotional state.
> 
> Just because Sploo does not believe it is acceptable for fraudsters to not be scrutinised for their con, does not in any way give a clue to his outlook on life.



Thank you, but I'm afraid you are not in the last word game. Me and Sploo play that, just me and him for the last 4 years. I'm winning.
After a number of years you DO get a few clues. 
Also you see great examples of tribalism


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> I agree the doom and gloom and endless whining from Brexiteers over the last few years has been dreadful.
> 
> One might imagine having left the EU they might be happy....but no.
> 
> Last year they moaned endlessly about the "EU being bullies"
> Now they are still moaning because people have the temerity to discuss the inevitable problems of Brexit reality.




I disagree.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> P.S. not sure, but are we playing the "last word" game again?


No *

* couldn't resist that one, sorry


----------



## MarkDennehy

Ditch 08 said:


> I am afraid that the first benefit not being in the EU is the pandemic, we have been able to get what we require and currently we have Vax'ed more than the whole EU put together.


Um. No.
The vaccine was approved for use in the UK *before* the transition period ended, *because* of EU law.
Also, you're paying a lot more per dose than anyone in the EU and I don't know why, because the UK was invited to be in the group order *without* having to abandon brexit but just didn't respond.
Also also, if you can get all you require, why on earth are you talking about skipping the second shot or substituting a different vaccine for that second shot, to which every doctor involved has said _"are you high? of course that's not how that works, can I talk to an adult please?"_ when asked if it might work.



jcassidy said:


> Just a note, in the Irish papers it's reported that DHL tried to charge a €42 charge fie online purchases from Arnotts department store which is owned by Selfridge's and has goods in warehouses in UK.
> Arnotts said DHL had no business charging their customers and have reimbursed. DHL blame the client (I.e. Arnotts/Selfridge's) for providing the wrong paperwork. Lol


Yup, a lot of shops here are pulling that nonsense and paying for it. Our kettle sprang a leak and shorted out the main house RCD. Ordered a replacement from the Curry's down the road (we're under lockdown with the worst infection rate per capita in the world right now thanks to nonsense from our bunch of merry idiots). That shop said it had loads of stock, all would be well, so I ordered and they tried to ship the kettle from a depot in the UK via DPD who had just announced that they would indefinitely suspend shipping from the UK to the EU including Ireland because of Brexit. I cancelled the order, and apparently I'm one of thousands doing the same thing, which can't be great for their business.

Meanwhile the same freight issues biting in the UK right now are also biting here, even though we never had a vote on whether or not to have a go at this jolly jape, and our freight companies are giving out the most dreary warnings about foodstuffs and such, which is irksome when you're under lockdown conditions. So, y'know, brexit is *ever* so popular over here right now.


----------



## marcros

MarkDennehy said:


> Um. No.
> The vaccine was approved for use in the UK *before* the transition period ended, *because* of EU law.
> Also, you're paying a lot more per dose than anyone in the EU and I don't know why, because the UK was invited to be in the group order *without* having to abandon brexit but just didn't respond.
> Also also, if you can get all you require, why on earth are you talking about skipping the second shot or substituting a different vaccine for that second shot, to which every doctor involved has said _"are you high? of course that's not how that works, can I talk to an adult please?"_ when asked if it might work.
> 
> 
> Yup, a lot of shops here are pulling that nonsense and paying for it. Our kettle sprang a leak and shorted out the main house RCD. Ordered a replacement from the Curry's down the road (we're under lockdown with the worst infection rate per capita in the world right now thanks to nonsense from our bunch of merry idiots). That shop said it had loads of stock, all would be well, so I ordered and they tried to ship the kettle from a depot in the UK via DPD who had just announced that they would indefinitely suspend shipping from the UK to the EU including Ireland because of Brexit. I cancelled the order, and apparently I'm one of thousands doing the same thing, which can't be great for their business.
> 
> Meanwhile the same freight issues biting in the UK right now are also biting here, even though we never had a vote on whether or not to have a go at this jolly jape, and our freight companies are giving out the most dreary warnings about foodstuffs and such, which is irksome when you're under lockdown conditions. So, y'know, brexit is *ever* so popular over here right now.



where are you writing from?


----------



## Noel

sploo said:


> I thought it was ok (in that .eu domains need to be owned by either an EU business or EU citizen)? Obviously the fact the guy now named is apparently surprised by it is a problem.
> 
> For me, the "amusement" was that (like so many of the Brexit backers*) they have the resources to move critical infrastructure to EU nations in order to not lose out; whereas the majority of people they convinced to vote Leave do not.
> 
> * See: Farage getting German passports for his kids, or Ratcliffe sodding off to Monaco.





Noel said:


> And carry out their business and/or be a resident of an EU state as far as I recall.
> 
> The guy, Sean Power, in Waterford is quoted as saying:
> _" My lawyers are looking into this on my behalf presently and will be in touch as deemed necessary in due course, _I_ have nothing to do with Leave.EU and never heard of it before yesterday.”_
> 
> Ah, here's the small-ish print:
> 
> According to Article 4 (2) (b) of Regulation (EC) No 733/2002, as amended by Regulation (EU) 2019/517, the following persons, undertakings and organisations are eligible to register .eu domain names:
> 
> 
> a Union citizen, independently of their place of residence;
> a natural person who is not a Union citizen and who is a resident of a Member State;
> an undertaking that is established in the Union; or
> an organisation that is established in the Union, without prejudice to the application of national law.



LOL, says it all really, pure comedy :

Leave dot EU not happy after being caught breaking EU IP rules, Neale Richmond (third rate politician....) is a TD (MP) in the Irish Dail. Sovereignty innit?
"Leave means leave lads, jog on......"


----------



## MarkDennehy

marcros said:


> where are you writing from?


Ireland.


----------



## Droogs

@MarkDennehy  I've always thought you were in Stepaside in Wales, not down the road from Sandyford


----------



## MarkDennehy

*lol* Droogs


----------



## marcros

Droogs said:


> @MarkDennehy  I've always thought you were in Stepaside in Wales, not down the road from Sandyford



that is what confused me. when I clicked on the location in the profile, it also took me to Wales!


----------



## Rorschach

Apparently you need an EORI number to import goods now, be interesting to see how easy that is to get hold of.


----------



## Noel

Rorschach said:


> Apparently you need an EORI number to import goods now, be interesting to see how easy that is to get hold of.



Very easy. If you've imported in the past in the course of your business HMRC should've dropped you a note to apply.

Fill in the boxes here: Get an EORI number

And do some new letterheads etc with the number on it. Without it you're asking for hassle.

Also have you had written confirmation on agreed price and shipping? Does the shipper clearly indicate that they are NOT charging VAT/GST? Are they registered for it?


----------



## Rorschach

Noel said:


> Very easy. If you've imported in the past in the course of your business HMRC should've dropped you a note to apply.
> 
> Fill in the boxes here: Get an EORI number
> 
> And do some new letterheads etc with the number on it. Without it you're asking for hassle.



I've imported plenty over the last 12 years, I doubt HMRC ever noticed though. They didn't contact me about EORI.


----------



## Noel

Noel said:


> Very easy. If you've imported in the past in the course of your business HMRC should've dropped you a note to apply.
> 
> Fill in the boxes here: Get an EORI number
> 
> And do some new letterheads etc with the number on it. Without it you're asking for hassle.
> 
> Also have you had written confirmation on agreed price and shipping? Does the shipper clearly indicate that they are NOT charging VAT/GST? Are they registered for it?



Edited as you replied.


----------



## Rorschach

Noel said:


> Does the shipper clearly indicate that they are NOT charging VAT/GST? Are they registered for it?



No idea, I am dealing with Greeks, I am sure they have a workaround! lol

I will factor in a 20% addition to what I am paying anyway, if it turns out I don't pay it, great.


----------



## Noel

Rorschach said:


> No idea, I am dealing with Greeks, I am sure they have a workaround! lol
> 
> I will factor in a 20% addition to what I am paying anyway, if it turns out I don't pay it, great.



FPA is 24% in Greece. Point I was making is that if they charge you then it's money thrown in the ditch and then it'll be a further 20% when it reaches your shores + admin etc. In many cases it's not a big deal, depends I suppose on the shipping value and your needs.


----------



## Delwood

doctor Bob said:


> Well it is and I also respect your rights.


Project fear has morphed into project reality.


----------



## Rorschach

Noel said:


> FPA is 24% in Greece. Point I was making is that if they charge you then it's money thrown in the ditch and then it'll be a further 20% when it reaches your shores + admin etc. In many cases it's not a big deal, depends I suppose on the shipping value and your needs.



I was quoted a price, they won't say if that includes VAT or not, they don't know really because they don't really deal with tax. They will ship it to me with "suitable paperwork so I don't pay" who knows what that will entail. I factored 20% extra into what I was willing to pay (they are more than 20% cheaper than other companies I deal with and I know they are very good quality) so I will either pay what I expected or I will pay 20% less.


----------



## kenpez

Ollie78 said:


> Yesterday I was going to order some 3d printing filament from prusa (they are in czeck republic) ....Nope.
> Currently not taking orders from the UK due to brexit.
> The guy in the unit next to me is having similar issues, he is a manufacturer and distributor of paragliding stuff. Many of his suppliers have stopped being able to send stuff.
> The main excuse is not that they are unwilling to send it. But rather that the couriers won't deliver it.
> They don't know what to do, effectively they are having to be customs agents and they don't want to do it.
> 
> Ollie



I ordered some more printers from prusa on the 12th December 2020. At the time there was a 3-4 week delay for new orders. They were kind enough to upgrade to next day shipping free of charge so I recieved them just before the new year. Shame I can't order any of their filament at the moment. Amazon basics is mediocre but it does the job for the mean time.


----------



## pe2dave

Oh dear. Caught up in Dover? Bought a new battery drill, Amazon.
Checked on it this morning.

Saturday, 16 January
7:37 PM
Package departed an Amazon facility
Casirate d’Adda (BG), Lombardy IT
Friday, 15 January
9:58 AM
Package arrived at an Amazon facility
Bergamo, Lombardy IT
Thursday, 14 January

Package has shipped
Montelimar, FR

Crazy? How many miles is that?
Makes me wonder how many air?/sea? miles it will have travelled if it gets here - That's without Brexit holdups.


----------



## jcassidy

Yet another bunch of Irish customers caught up in the entire customs-charges screwup by retailers and couriers...

Currys PC World Irish Customers Asked To Pay Import Tax

Whist of the story is Irish customers buying off Curry's *Irish* website for goods from it's *Irish* store are being asked by DPD to pay import fees. Which, to be clear, should not apply, as the consumer is buying duty-paid goods from an Irish retailer. Again, Curry's are blaming DPD, so DPD stopped shipping packages, so now another entire cohort of customers are stuck in limbo with neither money nor goods.

One guy had to pay €200 tax for a PC before DPD would release it!

I assume the same is happening in reverse if people are buying goods of UK retailers which are actually being shipped in from abroad... 

Moral of they story is, go to the shop in person!


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> I disagree.


You may disagree, but the vote Leave campaign was indeed entirely built on negativity......emotive slogans convincing Brexiteers that UK had lost its freedom and sovereignty and Brexit would get it back.


----------



## sploo

Export rather than import, but I see the fishing industry isn't exactly happy:









Fishing firms protest over post-Brexit disruption - BBC News


Boris Johnson promises £23m in compensation for exporters which have lost orders due to delays.




www.bbc.co.uk





Or to summarise: we've caused a massive problem by deceiving the country into voting to add extra bureaucracy to exports, so we'll now throw £23m of your (taxpayers) money to cover the costs of rotting squid.


----------



## RobinBHM

MarkDennehy said:


> So, y'know, brexit is *ever* so popular over here right now


N Ireland was an insolvable problem, Theresa May had at least a modicum of integrity and wouldn't allow the United Kingdom to to be broken up.

Johnson had no such scruples, he simply threw NI under a bus in order to get power.

Johnson quite simply lied...he said there would be unfettered access and kept repeating it.

Apparently in modern politics if you lie big you can win big.

Current govt motto is: never explain, never back down, never apologise.


Now we have more gaslighting: the pro Brexit side are dismissing issues as "teething troubles".....some are, many are permanent increases in paperwork, delays, costs.


----------



## Noel

RobinBHM said:


> N Ireland was an insolvable problem, Theresa May had at least a modicum of integrity and wouldn't allow the United Kingdom to to be broken up.
> 
> Johnson had no such scruples, he simply threw NI under a bus in order to get power.
> 
> Johnson quite simply lied...he said there would be unfettered access and kept repeating it.
> 
> Apparently in modern politics if you lie big you can win big.
> 
> Current govt motto is: never explain, never back down, never apologise.
> 
> 
> Now we have more gaslighting: the pro Brexit side are dismissing issues as "teething troubles".....some are, many are permanent increases in paperwork, delays, costs.



Although Mark is in Ireland, which as he describes is now suffering many ill effects of Brexit (fishing, customs red tape and tax/duties and so much else) Johnson did indeed threw NI under the bus. Gove rabbits on about NI getting the best of both worlds - in GB and EU CU etc- in reality it’s the worst of both entities. 

GB has been a distribution hub for goods to NI/Ireland and further afield since UK joined the EU. It’s difficult to see that continuing and makes little sense for it to continue. For example Toyota are talking about moving it’s parts operation to Belgium. I’m sure many others types of goods distribution hubs will be rethinking their future.

It’s still difficult to understand why a country voted to increase trade barriers with the world’s biggest trading bloc and also within it’s own borders.


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> Now we have more gaslighting: the pro Brexit side are dismissing issues as "teething troubles".....some are, many are permanent increases in paperwork, delays, costs.


On that subject, I was amused to see the bullsheet fountain Toby Young recently mention he's automatically deleting tweets more than a week old to protect against (and I quote) "politically-motivated offence archaeologists".

Or as I like to call them: people who point out he's full of, erm... sheet.

I mean, imagine being so unsure of your own arguments that you'd rather people don't remember what you previously said. Reminds me of something...


----------



## Jacob

Noel said:


> .......
> 
> It’s still difficult to understand why a country voted to increase trade barriers with the world’s biggest trading bloc and also within it’s own borders.


Americans are breathing sigh of relief and talking of the Trump 4yr "aberration" coming to an end. 
Lucky them ! 
We are stuck with our Farage/Johnson/brexit aberration for a long time to come


----------



## artie

RobinBHM said:


> You may disagree, but the vote Leave campaign was indeed entirely built on negativity......emotive slogans convincing Brexiteers that UK had lost its freedom and sovereignty and Brexit would get it back.


And in what way was that negative?


----------



## Jacob

artie said:


> And in what way was that negative?


In that it wasn't true. We are now less free.
The most symbolic loss of freedom we've insanely inflicted upon ourselves is freedom of movement.
The practical losses are being documented every day as exporters/importers rage against red tape and regulations, which membership of the EU freed us from.
We are all waiting for someone to put their hand up and point us to a real advantage in Brexit which isn't pie in the sky, but so far there has been nothing. The only good news is that if we ever have a socialist government they will be free of EU constraints on some issues, but these could have been negotiated for from within and in partnership with other European socialists.


----------



## sploo

artie said:


> And in what way was that negative?


Because it wasn't true. It was painting a picture of the UK as a victim, an oppressed nation, shackled by evil foreign rules that were woven into the fabric of our society. It was an argument that used fear, isolationism and nationalism as it base.

Oh, and also plenty of hypocrisy; what with the EU being an insidious organisation controlling every part of the UK, _and_ it being simultaneously really easy to split.

As we've so painfully seen, details, facts, reality - all of those inconvenient things were brushed aside; but people are now having to deal with that lack of thought, as you can't just hand wave away the realities of trade and international law.


----------



## Noel

artie said:


> And in what way was that negative?



You’re having a larf Artie, eh?


----------



## artie

Jacob said:


> In that it wasn't true.





sploo said:


> Because it wasn't true.



Then it was a lie not negative.


----------



## artie

Noel said:


> You’re having a larf Artie, eh?


Nothing funny about it.

"slogans convincing Brexiteers that UK had lost its freedom and sovereignty and Brexit would get it back. "

Was a very positive thing , and millions fell for it.


----------



## Jacob

artie said:


> Then it was a lie not negative.


OK he's avin a laff!  
In the real world lying is generally regarded as a negative sort of thing, especially if it relates to and influences important issues.
Would a diagram help? n.b. a "false positive" is a negative.


----------



## billw

artie said:


> And in what way was that negative?



Because it was utter bullcack aimed at appeasing a lot of folk who want it to be the 1950s again.


----------



## sploo

artie said:


> Then it was a lie not negative.


They lied about negative stuff.

Ok, the NHS claim on the side of the bus was arguably positive (in that it was insinuating that money could go to a good cause). It was a lie of course (on multiple levels), and extremely cynical and deceptive; given the economic politics of those who stood in front of said bus.

Most of the rest was based on the idea of the UK being shackled by the EU; playing to nationalism, and fear of "others". I.e. negative/victim mentality. It worked though; at least for the purposes of the vote.


----------



## Richard_C

Early 2019 I had a short trip to Lens (the Louvre outpost), Lille and Brussels to beat the potential no deal no transition cliff edge we faced then. In Brussels there is an EU visitor center, had been before, and the first gallery contains pictures of the post WW2 destruction, poverty and chaos. There was a political will to rebuild and make sure it didn't happen again, which led to the coal and steel union of France, Germany and the Benelux countries, the beginnings of the EEC and eventually the EU.

There is good evidence that countries which trade with one another don't go to war with one another, and if there is a mutual dependency the chances are reduced even more. That was the ideal. It worked, if you are old enough to remember the cold war, the iron curtain and the 3 minute warning reality or have visited Berlin and seen the nuclear shelter, or worked out how much the UK and USA spent on a permanent tank and troop army on the Rhine you would never have imagined that the USSR would collapse and the iron curtain be pushed back so far that E Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Latvia and so many more evolved into free democracies with consumer, human and employment rights underpinned by the ECJ and ECHR. Not a shot was fired. The EU presented a trade and a social vision that people could buy in to.

Maybe that is what Churchill meant when he made a speech to youth in Zurich in 1946, the quote is proudly displayed in that gallery:

_"We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple hopes and joys which make life with living". _

Lots of "Brexiteers" have appropriated Churchill, Johnson, Francois, Duncan Smith, but conveniently forget that he was one of the most pro European post war leaders.

This thread started as one about practical implications, which get worse every day. We all have examples, my daughter awaits new carpets ordered early December and expected first week in January- fitters say "dunno when, the carpet you ordered is made in France, not had a delivery for ages....." Easy excuse perhaps, Felixtowe, lorries, brexit, covid... who knows. But it's trivial compared to the big picture. Yes we can 'bail out' fishermen short term, but not forever. We can compensate business in NI short term, but not forever. We have already spent the big red bus £350m a week several times over in direct costs and harm to the economy. But that too is trivial in comparison to the big picture.

The world is increasingly dominated by 3 big and influential trading blocs - USA/NA, China and the EU. With trade power comes diplomatic power, and no country wants to deploy the only other source of influence, military power. As well as the 3 blocs, there are the oil suppliers who will become less influential as we turn away from fossil fuels and a few much smaller groups happy to build local free trade arrangements. Counties like Japan are far less relevant than they were 25 years ago. Not only are we not in one of those 3 important blocs, we actively chose to leave.

A song keeps going through my head, Pink Floyd "Final Cut" - Post War Dream:


_What have we done to England?
Should we shout, should we scream
"What happened to the post war dream?"_


----------



## artie

The goal posts weren't long in shifting.
I learned this lesson before but forgot.
Nothing more from me.


----------



## Noel

artie said:


> The goal posts weren't long in shifting.
> I learned this lesson before but forgot.
> Nothing more from me.




Got your Green Card?


----------



## artie

Could you spell that one out for me?
Not getting it?


----------



## sploo

artie said:


> The goal posts weren't long in shifting.
> I learned this lesson before but forgot.
> Nothing more from me.


The only moving goalposts of which I'm aware were the ever changing promises Boris made to those whose support he needed (e.g. just ask the DUP).

The position that Brexit is and always was a process based on fear and deception (i.e. negativity) has never changed.


----------



## Noel

artie said:


> Could you spell that one out for me?
> Not getting it?



When you drive down to Dublin bay to see the fine country of Wales of course. : )


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> When you drive down to Dublin bay to see the fine country of Wales of course. : )


Out of interest; what is the current status for NI residents wishing to drive across the border to ROI? I assume there's been some fudge to try to maintain a lack of physical borders?


----------



## RobinBHM

artie said:


> And in what way was that negative?


Because it was built on the belief that it was the EU that had taken our sovereignty.
Brexit was built on fear: fear of the EU, fear of immigrants.

Fear is a negative emotion


----------



## Noel

sploo said:


> Out of interest; what is the current status for NI residents wishing to drive across the border to ROI? I assume there's been some fudge to try to maintain a lack of physical borders?



Currently you canny, unless for good/essential reason, cause of C-19. Police/Garda checkpoints most of the time. A green card to indicate insurance compliance has been needed since Jan 1st. Other than that no difference, CTA etc. Oh and lots of smuggling, both ways, on goods etc. Imagine the people traffickers will get busy soon....
.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Noel said:


> Although Mark is in Ireland, which as he describes is now suffering many ill effects of Brexit (fishing, customs red tape and tax/duties and so much else) Johnson did indeed threw NI under the bus.


Y'know, it's gotten so bad watching some of the coverage of all this in the last few years, that it's genuinely nice when someone doesn't confuse Ireland and Northern Ireland...



> GB has been a distribution hub for goods to NI/Ireland and further afield since UK joined the EU. It’s difficult to see that continuing


It probably won't for Ireland at least; we already have new ferry lines opened up to France and another opens on Monday to Amsterdam and more will follow because we're still below the capacity we were at in December. Delivery prices will increase significantly as well, though it's interesting to note that I now pay less for delivery from amazon.de than I do from amazon.co.uk for the same item (when they're being delivered from german and UK distribution centers). The cost of the customs and red tape and so forth is that high, at least at the moment.


----------



## billw

Imagine the carnage when an independent Scotland joins the EU.


----------



## RobinBHM

MarkDennehy said:


> Y'know, it's gotten so bad watching some of the coverage of all this in the last few years, that it's genuinely nice when someone doesn't confuse Ireland and Northern Ireland



I did, my apologies!

I guess I tend to think of the Island of Ireland made up of Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland....but I understand that is incorrect.

I imagine Brexit also damages Ireland, not just NI? Although I think trade with UK is less than with EU and USA.


----------



## RobinBHM

billw said:


> Imagine the carnage when an independent Scotland joins the EU.



Hadrian will have to refurbish his wall.


----------



## MarkDennehy

RobinBHM said:


> I guess I tend to think of the Island of Ireland made up of Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland....but I understand that is incorrect.


Well, it's not the worst I've ever heard. The phrase "The island of Ireland" gets used over here to signify the entire physical island, as in the geographical entity. But "Ireland" is the official name of the republic; if you say "the republic of Ireland" we know what you mean but nobody here calls it that really. I mean, unless they're taking the mickey to get a rise out of you, that is  



> I imagine Brexit also damages Ireland, not just NI? Although I think trade with UK is less than with EU and USA.


It does, mainly for logistical reasons because the land bridge goes away and because a lot of small businesses like timber yards were dealing with distribution hubs in the UK rather than the continent due to the size of the local markets here. Where margins were thin already, that's really bad news. The trade with the UK is less of an issue these days - in the 1970s something like 90% of our trade was with the UK but it was about 11% in 2019. That's for goods, mind, for services it was lower, about 7% in 2019. Most of our trade these days is overwhelmingly with the EU with the US a closeish second. 
Northern Ireland is in a much more exposed position with regard to trade than we are I'm afraid, things are not looking good for them at the moment.


----------



## billw

MarkDennehy said:


> Well, it's not the worst I've ever heard. The phrase "The island of Ireland" gets used over here to signify the entire physical island, as in the geographical entity. But "Ireland" is the official name of the republic; if you say "the republic of Ireland" we know what you mean but nobody here calls it that really. I mean, unless they're taking the mickey to get a rise out of you, that is



I've always assumed Ireland to mean the RoI in sovereign state terms, and the geographical entity to be the Island of Ireland. So I guess that holds true over the other side of the Irish Sea too


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> Currently you canny, unless for good/essential reason, cause of C-19. Police/Garda checkpoints most of the time. A green card to indicate insurance compliance has been needed since Jan 1st. Other than that no difference, CTA etc. Oh and lots of smuggling, both ways, on goods etc. Imagine the people traffickers will get busy soon....
> .


Yep, I can see that working really well. Nothing in the history of the ROI/NI border to suggest that police checkpoints will cause any problems eh 

If only someone had pointed out before the vote that it might have been an issue. Ahem.




billw said:


> Imagine the carnage when an independent Scotland joins the EU.


Whilst there's apparently all sorts of issues with joining, I wouldn't blame the other EU nations for bending/relaxing the rules to allow Scotland in quickly. If nothing else but for a laugh against Westminster.

I was going to make a comment/joke about Scotland wanting to join the EU in order to protect food standards; given that parliament has (last night) voted to effectively allow changes to food safety regulation without consultation. But then I realised the Scots eat haggis, so that's probably a moot point


----------



## Droogs

no different to tripe sploo, but joshing aside the vote is a major problem for uk producers. they still need to comply with EU grade rules to sell in uk and europe but ROW can now give us slops and pretend its sirloin


----------



## sploo

Droogs said:


> no different to tripe sploo, but joshing aside the vote is a major problem for uk producers. they still need to comply with EU grade rules to sell in uk and europe but ROW can now give us slops and pretend its sirloin


Yep. It's (yet) another one of those Project Fear/never going to happen/just whinging remoaners things that was warned about (multiple times). Surprise surprise it's now being quietly put into place.

Still, I rather like haggis. Not so sure about tripe. Or rat hair in my pasta.


----------



## MarkDennehy

sploo said:


> Yep, I can see that working really well. Nothing in the history of the ROI/NI border to suggest that police checkpoints will cause any problems eh


Well, those checkpoints aren't on the border at the moment. We're all in a level five lockdown in Ireland and similarly Northern Ireland is locked down as well, the checkpoints are internal to each country enforcing the lockdowns. 
The cross-border traffic is a wholly separate, way more complex issue.


----------



## Richard_C

We have started off down the slippery slope much sooner than I thought. Food standards decisions are now in the hands of Ministers, no parliamentary scrutiny, and BEIS has announced a review of employment regulations, unsurprisingly consulting first with large business. So much for Parliamentary Sovereignty. You could see it coming when the Government took the 'enshrined protections' clauses out of the withdrawal bill and pushed it through the Commons with 'its this or nothing' arguments. 

One bugbear for BEIS is the package of working time regulations which are wholly, and when ministers are speaking willfully, misunderstood. They don't stop people working as many hours as they want, they stop employers forcing people to work more than 48 hours in a week. Big difference, and record keeping isn't necessary unless the employee asks. With rising unemployment surely its better for the nation to employ more people than it is to increase the hours of those in employment.

Ken Clarke, admittedly a pro-European remainer, who held most of the great offices of State and is respected by all sides identified Ireland and the border as being the biggest irreconcilable problem in Brexit. It really is irreconcilable and no-one wants, but we might all get, the 'troubles' returning. Troubles is an understatement. In pessimistic moments I can see the UK Government, under pressure from Stormont, bending the "Irish Sea non- border" arrangements so much that the EU shouts foul. The EU start border checks, making them the bad guys here, and it all goes bad. The Good Friday Agreement as its called is an international treaty and includes an open border guarantee, made possible by our EU membership or at least by our membership of the customs union. Sometime between the referendum and the implementation, a vote for EU withdrawal was turned into a mandate to leave the single market and the customs union as well so what we have is self-inflicted.

Once Covid restrictions are gone, I have no idea how the cross border movement of people will be managed - can an EU citizen (say a plumber from Spain) legitimately living and working in Ireland, go to Belfast and do some work there for a few days? And how would anybody know, unless you start border ID checks, and there the real trouble starts.

NI is fairly unimportant economically (population England 56m, Scotland 5.5m, Wales 3.1m, NI 1.8m, GDP: 1.8 Tn, 160Bn, 75Bn, 50Bn) but often important politically. Most recently the DUP kept May in power and in the 'wafer thin majority' years of Heath, Wilson, Callaghan they or their predecessors were vital. The GDP figures are a bit distorted because so many companies have their head office in London so results are reported there. I'm sure that's why the Johnson Government agreed to such a fudge - if it goes wrong who cares? But they deserve better. 

Interestingly the NI population is on average the youngest of the 4 nations by far, perhaps in 5 years time they will see that their future lies as some kind of self-governing region within Ireland and as full EU members. I wonder if constitutionally the 6 counties could be associate members of the Commonwealth? Difficult perhaps.

Some think its a great relief to be out of the EU, others including me see nothing but difficulties and have nothing but regret. As a pensioner when the referendum happened it's too late for me to emigrate, If my adult children leave the country I will be sad but will understand.

Meanwhile, I'm glad I'm not having to cope with buying much in the way of materials and equipment that has to cross a real or imaginary border. Good luck to those of you who need to to keep your businesses going.

We are where we are.


----------



## rafezetter

RobinBHM said:


> N Ireland was an insolvable problem, Theresa May had at least a modicum of integrity and wouldn't allow the United Kingdom to to be broken up.
> 
> Johnson had no such scruples, he simply threw NI under a bus in order to get power.
> 
> Johnson quite simply lied...he said there would be unfettered access and kept repeating it.
> 
> Apparently in modern politics if you lie big you can win big.
> 
> Current govt motto is: never explain, never back down, never apologise.
> 
> 
> *Now we have more gaslighting: the pro Brexit side are dismissing issues as "teething troubles".....some are, many are permanent increases in paperwork, delays, costs.*



While I don't disagree things are not great at the moment, and I made no attempt to deny them, the absolute truth is all of this still sits on the EU's doorstep - in 1979 the UK entered into a "free trade agreement" for TRADE AND ONLY TRADE.

Brussels in thier "wisdom" made it about more than that, because they were quite happy to listen to lobbyists from spain france portugal etc about how envious they were of the UK's fishing industry, as just one example of those on the other side - stakign a claim in what was not rightfully thiers under the guise of "well we are a union now, so you have to do as we say or we'll revoke your "free trade".

and they then continued to use that stick to beat us, for thier own monetary and political gain for the next 40 years.

it constantly amazes me just how ignorant remainers and pro EU people are of the REAL information about how the EU evolved from simply being about FREE TRADE ACROSS BORDERS WITHOUT RED TAPE OR TARIFF, to the behemoth it now is.

BOTH sides voted based on lies in many areas, BUT the reality is the EU is the one that decided that they wanted more than what the original agreement offered.

We COULD have gone back to the original precepts, but the EU are greedy now, they have become like the gold digger wife "accustomed to a certain lifestyle" from our monetary contributions, so without that PERMAMENTLY left to continue (instead of the reducing scale we now have) they weren't interested in accomodating our requests for free trade - EVEN at the expense of the reduced trade with the UK of their own member states.

"Cut off nose to spite face" has never been more accurate.

But as I've said elsewhere and will repeat, anyone who thinks the EU is a "united" group of countries is an silly person, there are just as many issues of division inside it today as before - more probably, now that some countries have seen the REAL true colours of the leadership.

I and many other brexiteers I've spoken to firmly beleive it will either tear itself apart in the next 50 years, OR it will become another USSR, leaving NATO make it's OWN ARMY (the idea is already floating about) and become something very sinister indeed, those on the fence like Norway will be told "in or out" and it may** even come to armed conflict as it seeks to expand it's powerbase and conflicts with China's own expansionist policies.

The cynical might say it almost sounds like a carbon copy of 1939 - which wouldn't be a surprise considering the reality of where the blueprint for the EU came from; and anyone whom denies this hypothesis to be clearly self evidentially true, clearly hasn't read that pithy document of world domination either, they are essentially identical.

** probably will - this is human beings involved after all.

Why people think the EU is an altruistic system "for the benefit of all" is beyond my understanding - the very fact that it has closed trade borders with THE REST OF THE 170 ODD COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD, speaks VOLUMES about the introverted nature of it.

The facts are undeniable


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> Yep. It's (yet) another one of those Project Fear/never going to happen/just whinging remoaners things that was warned about (multiple times). Surprise surprise it's now being quietly put into place.
> 
> Still, I rather like haggis. Not so sure about tripe. Or rat hair in my pasta.



This is one of the biggest issues we are going to have. If we allow US imports then they'll drive down the price (if anyone buys them, I won't) and UK producers will either have to choose to compete with them domestically on price, or stick to EU quality so they can export. Let's face it we are going to sell ZERO agri products to the USA. It's absolutely one-way traffic. 

Unbelievable that people still love good old Boris, oh he's such a character, look at that lovely hair, oooh he's proper British he is.

Farcical.


----------



## sploo

rafezetter said:


> Brussels in thier "wisdom" made it about more than that, because they were quite happy to listen to lobbyists from spain france portugal etc about how envious they were of the UK's fishing industry, as just one example of those on the other side - stakign a claim in what was not rightfully thiers under the guise of "well we are a union now, so you have to do as we say or we'll revoke your "free trade".


The UK fishing industry sold its quotas to foreign owned firms. That's rather different to staking a claim on something that's not rightfully theirs.



rafezetter said:


> and they then continued to use that stick to beat us, for thier own monetary and political gain for the next 40 years.


"They" were us. The EU was "us"; it wasn't a game of UK vs EU; we were a member state. We also gained financially by being part of that trading zone.



rafezetter said:


> BOTH sides voted based on lies in many areas, BUT the reality is the EU is the one that decided that they wanted more than what the original agreement offered.


I wanted the one that allowed free movement of people and easy trade across borders (which is facilitated by sharing regulation and rules).



rafezetter said:


> But as I've said elsewhere and will repeat, anyone who thinks the EU is a "united" group of countries is an silly person, there are just as many issues of division inside it today as before - more probably, now that some countries have seen the REAL true colours of the leadership.


Of course there are disagreements; that'll happen in any club or organisation. The critical thing is trying to work together; rather than being on the outside, throwing stones in.



rafezetter said:


> I and many other brexiteers I've spoken to firmly beleive it will either tear itself apart in the next 50 years, OR it will become another USSR, leaving NATO make it's OWN ARMY (the idea is already floating about) and become something very sinister indeed, those on the fence like Norway will be told "in or out" and it may** even come to armed conflict as it seeks to expand it's powerbase and conflicts with China's own expansionist policies.


You've just claimed the EU isn't a united group of countries, and then claimed it might initiate armed conflict against others. Do I need to explain the collision of realities there?



rafezetter said:


> The cynical might say it almost sounds like a carbon copy of 1939 - which wouldn't be a surprise considering the reality of where the blueprint for the EU came from; and anyone whom denies this hypothesis to be clearly self evidentially true, clearly hasn't read that pithy document of world domination either, they are essentially identical.


That's now firmly descended into tin foil hat madness; and (having some German family) is also pretty distasteful.




rafezetter said:


> Why people think the EU is an altruistic system "for the benefit of all" is beyond my understanding - the very fact that it has closed trade borders with THE REST OF THE 170 ODD COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD, speaks VOLUMES about the introverted nature of it.


The EU is a system for the benefit of those who are members (accepting the members themselves will always have internal disagreements - just like any trading block). It is "open" within the trading block - just like any other trading block.


----------



## Richard_C

Don't we all just love shouting in capitals.

The EU is a very big parliamentary democracy, not an evil empire. It has an ideology that balances trade and business with the rights of its citizens. 

That parliament works on consensus, no single country and no single political group dominates. Unlike winner takes all fptp governments, coalition and consensus weeds out the kind of extremism you think you see. That frustrates those who seek to wield unfettered power and ultimately that frustration led to Brexit. 

The EU wields economic and diplomatic power but has no tank divisions.

We, the UK, were part of that democracy. We elected MEPs, and if turnout in those elections was dismal that is our fault not theirs. We, UK citizens, were better protected as citizens, workers and consumers than ever before.

If you think we are better looked after and will have a fairer society under Johnson and his cabal than we were under EU rules, good for you. You can enjoy your future. But to equate the EU with the rise of Fascism in 1939 is a wilful distortion.


----------



## Droogs

Re Rafezette'rs post: - Sounds exactly like a modern interpretation of the creation of the union of the kingdoms of Great Britain to eventually make the UK. No different to the story of the unification of Germany, from 300 little kingdoms into one modern nation. This is how human society evolves socio-politically. from village to town to a collection of towns to a county to a collection of counties to a country. The EU is evolving in the same manner, just at much faster pace and with a lot less bloodshed.
After all there would have been no English/Scottish union if the English hadn't applied the samesort of draconnian trading rules you are moaning about to Scotland - forbidding any oversees English colony from trading with Scotland or any of its attempts at creating a colony on pain of death. Forcing the country into bankruptcy (sound familiar) and then basically paying to take over. At least brussels give you a chance to object

edit typos


----------



## brocher

Thought you might like to see a reply I got from Dieter Schmid in Berlin today about Brexit 

"
Thank you for your inquiry.

Corona, Brexit all these issues have stressed our normal business. We have to reorganize our shipping modalities to the UK. But before we have to clear up several fiscal details regarding customs clearance and taxes. It’s a very sophisticated process and we have to pay much attention to all the new regulations.

For this reason, we have decided that the only way to avoid a number of problems is to temporarily suspend shipments to the UK. 

We sincerely hope that this unpleasant situation will be of short duration and that we will soon be able to resume supplying our valued UK customers. 

We can only apologise for the inconvenience caused.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards / cordiali saluti

Vincenzo Ballacchino


--
Dieter Schmid Werkzeuge GmbH
Wilhelm-von-Siemens-Str. 23
12277 Berlin
Germany"


----------



## RobinBHM

rafezetter said:


> The facts are undeniable



I am sure you won't be surprised when I say disagree with pretty much all of your post....I won't respond to any specific point as Sploo has posted a reply that mirrors the points I would've made.

However, I would just like to say; thank you for your effort in posting, I did read and consider everything you wrote. 


Because the UK is an island off mainland Europe, I think the public has never felt a part of the European Union and the vast majority of English people have very little idea what the European Union does and how much we were actually a part of it.

Did you know that the UK played a pivotal role in the creation of the Single Market? 

Not only that but the UK has played a big role in many many EU decisions over the years

And the UK had more opt outs than any other EU nation.


The EU has many faults but goodness me they are out numbered by the Brexit destination


----------



## RobinBHM

brocher said:


> temporarily suspend shipments to the UK



That is a real shame


----------



## brocher

Just to add how Government is making it simple for all our businesses to trade!!! It all looks so simple doesn't it!! Brexit


----------



## Argus

Following the recent discussions here about buying stuff from the EU - it used to be a piece of cake - here's an article on the current state of affairs that cropped up in today's Grauniad:









Britons buying from EU websites hit with £100 customs bills


Parcel firms demanding payment before delivering items ordered from European websites since Brexit




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Cheshirechappie

I understand that some people have strong feelings about Brexit and it's ramifications, but could we keep political threads in the Off Topic section, and the rest of the forum politics free please? There are already at least two threads running in the Off Topic section on post-Brexit trade matters - do we really need more?


----------



## Argus

Cheshirechappie said:


> "................could we keep political threads in the Off Topic section, and the rest of the forum politics free please? ..................."




Not at all political - in fact very pertinent to us woodworkers.

Many of us regularly buy tools and other equipment direct from the EU.
Getting an unexpected bill like that detailed in the report is something to be vary wary of.

.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

All right.

Consider this - the trade deal negotiated between the EU and the UK was agreed on 24 December 2020. That gave no time for the relevant Civil Services either side of the Channel to formulate guidance to businesses, still less for businesses to find out what the new rules were or incorporate them into their sales procedures, before the agreement came into force on 1st January 2021, just three weeks ago. Had the agreement been reached six months before, there would have been plenty of time for that to happen, and the change would have been rather more seamless.

Give it a few days or weeks while everybody works out what they should be doing, and it'll all settle down.

Remember, we buy and sell stuff from non-EU countries, mostly without much fuss. It's not THAT new or different.


----------



## AES

@Argus: Agreed that your post wasn't political - nor do I think it was intended to be - but as a member here for 18 years you MUST have noticed that there are certain subjects on here which are, to say the least, always extremely "sensitive".

And you must have seen that anything to do with Brexit is definitely a subject that has ALWAYS fallen into the "hotly-disputed/ entrenched opinions" category.

So while I'm sure that your motives were "pure" in just sending out a warning to anyone in UK wanting to buy stuff from the EU during the next few weeks, I'm also sure that you'll agree that "political" or not, your post will (hopefully now only "would") be turned into yet another political rant thread.

Personally I think that Cheshirechappie is quite right - for whatever reason/s, the UK/EU agreement has only just been signed off and with Christmas, New Year, AND Covid all going on as well, even with the best will in the world on all sides, it must take the civil servants in all the affected countries some time - weeks? months? - to turn the signed agreement into actual working procedures.

In other words, if necessary to post at all, it surely would have been enough for you to say something along the lines of QUOTE: Suggest any potential buyers of stuff from the EU hold off for a few weeks or more until all the procedures have been properly put into practice. At present it seems that UK buyers of stuff from the EU COULD face customs charges running into hundreds of quid. UNQUOTE:

Posted with respect Argus


----------



## julianf

The lack of vat synchronisation is not a "teething" issue.

Higher level transactions will smooth out in time, however, consumer level transactions are stuffed, and will be forever.

There are costs involved with vat collection. Royal mail has been overcharging for them for years, but there are still costs regardless.

To say "we have been doing it fine elsewhere for years" neglects the minimum £8 (+vat) charge that RM etc have been applying to non EU transactions for years.

Again, say goodbye to buying without additional costs, but, way way more importantly, all those firms serving EU consumers directly now have additional costs implied.

If those firms are specialist low volume firms, legitimately working under the UK vat registration threshold, the situation becomes even worse, as, not only are their products suddenly 20% more expensive to EU customers, their customers will also be hit with clearance fees.

I would imagine that there would be a number of specialist wood workers in this class.

I am in this class with specialist metal work.

I know someone who builds custom wood burners. He has (well had) built up a good EU presence.

These are not teething issues. The lack of vat synchronisation isn't about people learning how to fill in forms better. It is, in a lot of cases, a terminal barrier to specialist low volume direct to consumer trades.


----------



## Droogs

Seems that there may also be a CITES admin charge as species are now crossing international trade bouderies as well to come into the uk from EU states


----------



## MickCheese

I have bought a couple of thing from Germany in the past few weeks, one was about £50 the other nearly £200. Not woodworking but musical instrument related.

Neither had any issues, neither had any duties added. So from a personal point, it hasn't affected me.

Be careful about listening to naysayers.

Mick


----------



## Setch

MickCheese said:


> I have bought a couple of thing from Germany in the past few weeks, one was about £50 the other nearly £200. Not woodworking but musical instrument related.
> 
> Neither had any issues, neither had any duties added. So from a personal point, it hasn't affected me.
> 
> Be careful about listening to naysayers.
> 
> Mick



Possibly you've been lucky - back when I bought stuff from Stew Mac in the States semi-regularly, I had a good initial run of deliveries without attracting duty, followed by a much larger spell of getting hit with duty and admin fees which made a painful difference to my pocket.


----------



## MickCheese

I too got stung by Stew Mac, but remember they are not in Europe. Maybe a deal with the USA will make it possible to order from there without a hefty bill to the post office.

Mick


----------



## julianf

> Dear julian,
> 
> UPS have made us aware of severe delays to all international parcels due to the multiple changes recently enforced by Brexit. As a result UPS have stopped any further international parcel bookings through Parcel2Go and all other major partners.



So there you have it - one of the major players in the courier market saying that they can not be bothered with the issues from brexit.

Or, in business speak, they can not conduct their usual trade at profit due to brexit.


----------



## Peterm1000

Cheshirechappie said:


> ......
> 
> Remember, we buy and sell stuff from non-EU countries, mostly without much fuss. It's not THAT new or different.



Really? I don't think I've ever bought anything from a non-EU country and had it imported into the UK. I think 99.9% of people don't.

There are all kinds of ramifications that are not going away in 2-3 weeks - not least product liability. There was an awful story on here about some poor chap who had cut off his arm with a mitre saw. Imagine that mitre saw had done that because it was defective from the point of manufacture. Imagine you had bought that mitre saw new 5 years earlier direct from the tool supplier in Germany and that it was originally manufactured in China. Under EU law, the first person to import something into the EU has product liability FOREVER so the German company would be on the hook. Now that the UK is not part of the EU and the UK mirrored EU law on this, what matters is the first importer into the UK - you. So if you do buy a tool from Germany and import it into the UK and it turns out to be defective 10 years later, you are liable.

If you haven't had duties added, it's not because you don't owe them. It's because you weren't caught yet and you didn't correctly declare what was being imported. That is no different to changing what you say you earned on your tax return.


----------



## novocaine

WHAT leaving the EU has negative effects, surely not, dont be daft, i shall not here it,i shall stick my fingers in my ears my thumb up my pineapple and pretend it cant be true.

Get bent, i want to say bottom hole and dam well say it, i dont have a pineapple to take a dump out of.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

By 'we' I meant the UK generally. However, more specifically, there are people on this forum and elsewhere that have in the past bought woody stuff from the USA, Canada, and probably Japan. Maybe elsewhere, too. So it's not new.

As for the rest of your comment - don't really see what you're getting at. EU countries are now just like the rest of the world, and we trade with quite a lot other countries. We seem to import quite a lot of stuff from China, so presumably the importers understand and accept their liabilities.

Personally, I'm trying to buy less stuff made in China these days. But that's another topic.


----------



## Noel

Peterm1000 said:


> Really? I don't think I've ever bought anything from a non-EU country and had it imported into the UK. I think 99.9% of people don't.
> 
> There are all kinds of ramifications that are not going away in 2-3 weeks - not least product liability. There was an awful story on here about some poor chap who had cut off his arm with a mitre saw. Imagine that mitre saw had done that because it was defective from the point of manufacture. Imagine you had bought that mitre saw new 5 years earlier direct from the tool supplier in Germany and that it was originally manufactured in China. Under EU law, the first person to import something into the EU has product liability FOREVER so the German company would be on the hook. Now that the UK is not part of the EU and the UK mirrored EU law on this, what matters is the first importer into the UK - you. So if you do buy a tool from Germany and import it into the UK and it turns out to be defective 10 years later, you are liable.
> 
> If you haven't had duties added, it's not because you don't owe them. It's because you weren't caught yet and you didn't correctly declare what was being imported. That is no different to changing what you say you earned on your tax return.




Indeed, some simply don't understand/don't want to believe how duties and taxes work or how HMRC is applying recently introduced regulations.



MickCheese said:


> I too got stung by Stew Mac, but remember they are not in Europe. Maybe a deal with the USA will make it possible to order from there without a hefty bill to the post office.
> 
> Mick



US FTA? Will make no difference, taxes and duties again, with admin charges of course.


----------



## IanB

& this (sorry if its already been mentioned, couldn't read all 37 previous pages!)...









Britons buying from EU websites hit with £100 customs bills


Parcel firms demanding payment before delivering items ordered from European websites since Brexit




www.theguardian.com


----------



## powertools

Please not another Brexit thread the last one caused lasting damage to this woodworking forum and we could do without that again.
Noel in your position as a mod on the forum you would be well advised to delete this topic rather than get involved.
Perhaps we could revisit this topic in 12 months time when things have settled down.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Setch said:


> Possibly you've been lucky - back when I bought stuff from Stew Mac in the States semi-regularly, I had a good initial run of deliveries without attracting duty, followed by a much larger spell of getting hit with duty and admin fees which made a painful difference to my pocket.


The problem started when the U.K. government permitted carriers to charge a ridiculous handling fee to process tax payments on your behalf. This immediately became a lucrative income source for them. Unfortunately they are all set up to do this automatically so applying it to EU shipping is inevitable.


----------



## Argus

paulrbarnard said:


> The problem started when the U.K. government permitted carriers to charge a ridiculous handling fee to process tax payments on your behalf. This immediately became a lucrative income source for them. Unfortunately they are all set up to do this automatically so applying it to EU shipping is inevitable.



That is precisely the point raised in the newspaper article that I quoted in the initial part of this post. Carriers are allowed an open day on disproportionate costs for collecting the levies.

An aspect of the post that seems to have eluded the writers of the initial responses that came up.


----------



## AES

@Peterm1000: You wrote, QUOTE: Under EU law, the first person to import something into the EU has product liability FOREVER so the German company would be on the hook. UNQUOTE:

Sorry you are completely wrong on that point, which I happen to KNOW for a fact.

But just as Cheshirechappie predicted, this thread has already started to get "silly", and IME of similar previous threads here, it's not going to get any better, whatever the OP's intentions.

On the contrary, in all likelihood it's going to get worse, and quickly.

Suggest the mods stop it NOW - IMO we just don't need this sort of junk here.

IF we need anything at all, it's simply a suggestion to wait awhile before buying anything from "anywhere overseas". End of!

And NO Argus - the aspect of couriers being able to charge almost whatever they like for "admin" is NOT lost on a lot of us who've been living outside the EU for YEARS!


----------



## Spectric

Is this why there is a shortage of so many items in the supermarkets?


----------



## novocaine

Spectric said:


> Is this why there is a shortage of so many items in the supermarkets?


Nope. Thats the vegans.


----------



## Cheshirechappie

Argus said:


> That is precisely the point raised in the newspaper article that I quoted in the initial part of this post. Carriers are allowed an open day on disproportionate costs for collecting the levies.
> 
> An aspect of the post that seems to have eluded the writers of the initial responses that came up.


You may care to read the last paragraph of my second comment on this thread. It's pretty obvious that once the UK has left the EU and the Transitional period has ended, we trade with EU countries in the same way we trade with any other country, and as the subject of import duties and other charges on purchases made by forum members from suppliers in the US and elsewhere has been discussed in the past, it shouldn't be a complete shock to anyone.

Argus - AES is right. This thread can only degenerate into the usual point-scoring, sanctimonious finger-wagging and general unpleasantness of the other 'political' threads. Maybe you did raise the issue in all innocence, but you do know how Brexit has been a divisive issue on this forum. I have no wish to fall out with you, you're a decent, knowledgeable member of the forum. But - as a long-standing member, you must know that poking a wasp's nest of a subject like Brexit and its ramifications is just bound to end in trouble.

Right - my reason for my first post was because I thought Off Topic was a better place for threads like this than it's original place in General Woodworking. The Moderators have moved the thread, so that's my concern addressed. I now wish I hadn't been drawn into the rest, but hey-ho, that's life. I'll leave those who wish to continue the subject to do so.

Edit to add - It now seems that the thread to which this comment referred has been merged with another thread, so my ramblings don't make much sense, unless you know the context! Hey-ho. Dat's life, folks.


----------



## billw

On topic about buying from the EU, this is a shambles. I was looking at something on EBay that was being sold in Ireland earlier and the listing said the price was subject to 20% VAT. Now, if the seller isn't VAT registered then he's probably already absorbed Irish VAT on the item and now I'm paying UK VAT as well? So that's good.

Losing access to firms like Dieter Schmid is basically going to be a godsend for my bank balance, but also a huge loss to a source of top quality kit at what was reasonable prices (and would be again I suppose if they figure out whether it's worth exporting.

Boris and co saying all the current problems are due to COVID is nonsense, nobody's asking for food health certifications because of COVID, they're asking because we aren't in the EU. I wonder how much longer they can keep this charade up before people start seeing the absolute train wreck that's been created.


----------



## RobinBHM

Clearly there are lots of changes to EU imports which are of real interest to us woodworkers.

Unfortunately Brexit is surrounded by so much misinformation, this thread is a real opportunity to learn what is actually happening in terms of VAT, delays and costs of importing.

I've learnt a lot already, so it would be a shame if this thread was stopped.


----------



## Jake

Noel said:


> US FTA? Will make no difference, taxes and duties again, with admin charges of course.



Some people do not get the difference between an FTA and a Customs Union/Single Market. But I'm sure everyone will make an exception for us, we're English!


----------



## julianf

Jake said:


> Some people do not get the difference between an FTA and a Customs Union/Single Market. But I'm sure everyone will make an exception for us, we're English!



The majority of the population believes the spin that brexit has happened and there is no trade barrier.

They think that the "free trade agreement" means nothing has changed. 

If the news wasn't full of Covid, this mess would be all over it all of the time.


----------



## Noel

julianf said:


> The majority of the population believes the spin that brexit has happened and there is no trade barrier.
> 
> They think that the "free trade agreement" means nothing has changed.
> 
> If the news wasn't full of Covid, this mess would be all over it all of the time.




Sadly many do, if a few recent posts are anything to go by. As Jake alludes too and I've posted before, a trade agreement (and there really is no such thing as a _free_ trade agreement) ensures the flow of goods, customs & duties protect that flow of goods. 

But hey, it's sovrinty innit.


----------



## Peterm1000

AES said:


> @Peterm1000: You wrote, QUOTE: Under EU law, the first person to import something into the EU has product liability FOREVER so the German company would be on the hook. UNQUOTE:
> 
> Sorry you are completely wrong on that point, which I happen to KNOW for a fact.



I don't know what you do for a living but I am a senior employee of one of the world's largest banks buying and financing billions of dollars of equipment across all of Europe. I have been in the industry for over 20 years and they pay me to know more than a little about import rules and Vat. I am sure I am not 100% right, but I know I am not completely wrong. What are your qualifications on this subject? 

Previous threads have descended into chaos because of people's inability to be civil to each other... 

Considerably more on the EU's product liability laws here but the important bit is as follows. There isn't a time limitation and at the moment UK law mirrors EU law on this point. That may well change of course. 

"
*Which parties can be held liable for defective products?*

Under Article 3 of the Product Liability Directive, liability for a defective product extends to:


the producer;
the first importer of the product into the European Union (the intention being to ensure that there will always be a defendant within the European Union that can be held liable for the defective product);"









The product liability regime in the European Union


A structured guide to the product liability regime in the EU




www.lexology.com


----------



## bansobaby

For pities sake, listening to some of this you would think the UK had been part of the EU since the dawn of time, and that leaving was similar to crossing the outer reaches of the galaxy and forming an entirely new civilisation on a barren moon.
It was never anything more than a bit of a club that got out of hand and turned into a colossal waste of money. Not to mention a gravy train for wannabe politicos who couldn’t hack it in their home countries.
It’s galling to think that a few generations ago we all fought to free Europe from something truly scary, and now we are ******** ourselves about being told to stand up and get on with it.
Pathetic.


----------



## Jake

bansobaby said:


> For pities sake, listening to some of this you would think the UK had been part of the EU since the dawn of time, and that leaving was similar to crossing the outer reaches of the galaxy and forming an entirely new civilisation on a barren moon.
> It was never anything more than a bit of a club that got out of hand and turned into a colossal waste of money. Not to mention a gravy train for wannabe politicos who couldn’t hack it in their home countries.
> It’s galling to think that a few generations ago we all fought to free Europe from something truly scary, and now we are ******** ourselves about being told to stand up and get on with it.
> Pathetic.



I really do not think you are armed with all the tools to call other people pathetic on this subject, but unfortunately we are where we are because knowledge and understanding are less important than the sorts of emotional feelings and factual distortions you are expressing.


----------



## Droogs

@bansobaby and on what front did you fight on, in which regiment? *We *didn't fight to free anything others did and they were the ones who, in the main, voted for us to join that club. In fact the leader of that generation was one of the main instigators for that club being created. Yeah that's right the guy all the brexiteers are soo enamoured and proud of, Winston Churchill was the strongest advocate of its creation.


----------



## Jake

Droogs said:


> @bansobaby and on what front did you fight on, in which regiment? *We *didn't fight to free anything others did and they were the ones who, in the main, voted for us to join that club. In fact the leader of that generation was one of the main instigators for that club being created. Yeah that's right the guy all the brexiteers are soo enamoured and proud of, Winston Churchill was the strongest advocate of its creation.



And then one Margaret Thatcher was the essential protagonist in the creation of the Single Market, and the expansion of what became the EU into more easterly Europe (an Atlantacist policy for various reasons). For all the faults, she was more of a realist than any current Tory frontbencher.


----------



## nrg710

Jake said:


> And then one Margaret Thatcher was the essential protagonist in the creation of the Single Market, and the expansion of what became the EU into more easterly Europe (an Atlantacist policy for various reasons). For all the faults, she was more of a realist than any current Tory frontbencher.


She was also the only Conservative leader strong enough to slap down the Eurosceptics of her party. As soon as Major came along, Euroscepticism was effectively a party within a party and was tearing the Tories apart. David Cameron succeeded in stopping the EU question tearing his party apart, swapping it instead for an issue which has since- and will continue to- tear the country apart.


----------



## Fergie 307

I think it's important to remember that what we joined, and what Churchill and others had advocated, was the EEC. This was essentially a trading arrangement, without all the monetary and political union baggage that has evolved since. If the EU leadership don't wake up then it's these issues which will lead more countries to leave, and eventually bring the whole thing down. There are many examples where countries in a geographical area have formed strong trading blocks without the need to share currency and so forth, and are sucessful. They have the sense not to burden themselves with an equivalent of the EU Commission, which has sadly become a self serving, and deeply corrupt , organisation, who's major concern seems to simply be to concentrate ever more power in their own hands. I would be at all surprised to find that if you fast forward fifteen years there will be no Euro, and the organisation will have reverted to its original economic rather than political focus.


----------



## Rorschach

FWIW I would vote for the 70's EEC type situation and if that was what were part of in 2016 I would have voted to remain. I think simplified trading arrangements between close neighbours is an excellent idea. Unfortunately that is not where things ended and before anyone says anything yes I accept that successive UK governments were also partially responsible for what the EU became.


----------



## billw

Rorschach said:


> FWIW I would vote for the 70's EEC type situation and if that was what were part of in 2016 I would have voted to remain. I think simplified trading arrangements between close neighbours is an excellent idea. Unfortunately that is not where things ended and before anyone says anything yes I accept that successive UK governments were also partially responsible for what the EU became.



What sort of things did the EU do that you didn’t like and why?


----------



## Rorschach

billw said:


> What sort of things did the EU do that you didn’t like and why?



Full of French people innit.

Seriously though, that is a long winded post I don't have time for right now but I'll try and type something up later. It will be boring though.


----------



## Peterm1000

Now we are well and truly off topic...

The thread is about what needs to happen to bring things into the UK from the EU. Rightly or wrongly, Brexit is done. We are out. Going over the reasons helps no one.

Now that Brexit is done, I think it is genuinely useful for people to understand how to buy things from abroad and bring them to the UK, the taxes they are going to incur and the risks they will be carrying so they can decide whether it is worthwhile or not. The costs are undoubtedly higher and there are greater risks. The Brexiteers would argue that those costs are offset by greater opportunities. I don't think we will know whether that is true for quite a while.


----------



## Fergie 307

The original, and very good idea, was that member countries agreed to trade between themselves without tariffs, taxes etc. In all other respects they remained independent. Unfortunately the dream scenario of the EU Commission now seems to be a United States Of Europe, with individual member governments entirely subservient to them. Personally I can't see this ever working, and I don't think it would be a good idea anyway. In the long term I think you will see a return to something more like the original organisation. This may come about because the Commission recognised the need to reform, unlikely in my opinion. More likely that other countries will now leave, and the remaining members will force a rethink.


----------



## Fergie 307

Peterm1000 said:


> Now we are well and truly off topic...
> 
> The thread is about what needs to happen to bring things into the UK from the EU. Rightly or wrongly, Brexit is done. We are out. Going over the reasons helps no one.
> 
> Now that Brexit is done, I think it is genuinely useful for people to understand how to buy things from abroad and bring them to the UK, the taxes they are going to incur and the risks they will be carrying so they can decide whether it is worthwhile or not. The costs are undoubtedly higher and there are greater risks. The Brexiteers would argue that those costs are offset by greater opportunities. I don't think we will know whether that is true for quite a while.


Hear hear. What's done is done, no amount of whining about it is going to change anything, we have to get on with it. I think anyone who believed that this could ever been seamless was extremely naive, of course there will be some disruption. Hopefully things will settle down fairly quickly as everyone gets used to the new arrangements, and then we will have a clearer understanding of exactly where we are. I regularly but stuff from the EU, and continue to do so. I have to say I haven't really seen any reason to be confused about costs as they are usually fairly clearly stated. If the added VAT or whatever takes it over your budget, then you either swallow the extra cost or buy elsewhere. I agree entirely with those who have said that if you can then it's probably better to wait until things have settled down a bit.


----------



## Limey Lurker

bansobaby said:


> It was never anything more than a bit of a club that got out of hand and turned into a colossal waste of money. Not to mention a gravy train for wannabe politicos who couldn’t hack it in their home countries.


Don't you think that Britain has now been turned into a bit of a club that's getting out-of-hand and wasting colossal amounts of money on a gravy train for wannabe politics who couldn't hack it in the EU?


----------



## Droogs

Fergie 307 said:


> I think it's important to remember that what we joined, and what Churchill and others had advocated, was the EEC. This was essentially a trading arrangement, without all the monetary and political union baggage that has evolved since. If the EU leadership don't wake up then it's these issues which will lead more countries to leave, and eventually bring the whole thing down. There are many examples where countries in a geographical area have formed strong trading blocks without the need to share currency and so forth, and are sucessful. They have the sense not to burden themselves with an equivalent of the EU Commission, which has sadly become a self serving, and deeply corrupt , organisation, who's major concern seems to simply be to concentrate ever more power in their own hands. I would be at all surprised to find that if you fast forward fifteen years there will be no Euro, and the organisation will have reverted to its original economic rather than political focus.


Winston Churchill in fact stated at the end of the war "what is needed is in fact a United States of Europe". In fact here is the man's very speech

The Bold is my input

*United States of Europe*
*September 19, 1946. University of Zurich*





I wish to speak about the tragedy of Europe, this noble continent, the home of all the great parent races of the Western world, the foundation of Christian faith and ethics, the origin of most of the culture, arts, philosophy and science both of ancient and modern times. If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that has sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations in their rise to power, which we have seen in this 20th century and in our own lifetime wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.


What is this plight to which Europe has been reduced? Some of the smaller states have indeed made a good recovery, but over wide areas are a vast, quivering mass of tormented, hungry, careworn and bewildered human beings, who wait in the ruins of their cities and homes and scan the dark horizons for the approach of some new form of tyranny or terror. Among the victors there is a Babel of voices, among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair. That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient states and nations, and that is all that the Germanic races have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide. Indeed, but for the fact that the great republic across the Atlantic realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve her own fate as well, and stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor. They may still return.


Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. *We must build a kind of United States of Europe*. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.


----------



## Jake




----------



## Noel

Brexit going well in Larne:


----------



## brocher

Peterm1000 said:


> Now we are well and truly off topic...
> 
> The thread is about what needs to happen to bring things into the UK from the EU. Rightly or wrongly, Brexit is done. We are out. Going over the reasons helps no one.
> 
> Now that Brexit is done, I think it is genuinely useful for people to understand how to buy things from abroad and bring them to the UK, the taxes they are going to incur and the risks they will be carrying so they can decide whether it is worthwhile or not. The costs are undoubtedly higher and there are greater risks. The Brexiteers would argue that those costs are offset by greater opportunities. I don't think we will know whether that is true for quite a while.



As Jacob Rees-Mogg said quite clearly a few months ago, we will know if it is a success in 50 years time!! Meanwhile he will benefit from not having pay his taxes as his company is domiciled outside the UK in Ireland! But we will all be paying the price in limited choice due to the import duties, taxes, and reams of red tape!


----------



## Rorschach

brocher said:


> Meanwhile he will benefit from not having pay his taxes as his company is domiciled outside the UK in Ireland!



That's not true.


----------



## ivan

Thanks for the debunking of the "we only signed up to a trading club" nonsense. I voted to join and remember a lot of discussion about how trading would open the door to an ever increasing union in the future. Those who believe we were overrun by the armies of "ruling unelected Brussels bureaucrats" should remember that there are more civil servants up Newcastle way in the department of work and pensions than in Brussels! Brussels produced proposals for the members to debate, much as in the UK where legislation is also drawn up by unelected civil servants, and only later approved (or not) by the ministers concerned, before being debated (or pushed through by the whips) in the House. 
Churchill saw that the pooling of sovereignity (every member gave some up) would deliver a symbiotic advantage, the sum being more powerful than the parts. Rather useful in an increasingly global world largely controlled by economic might.

I can't help thinking of a future ocean of sharks, where it will pay to be a big one, or a member of a co-operating pack. Or maybe one of those small camp follower fish that scavenge their shark host for parasites and crumbs from his fearsome bite...


----------



## Rorschach

billw said:


> What sort of things did the EU do that you didn’t like and why?



I didn't like that laws were drawn up by unelected civil servants and MEP's were only there to rubber stamp them. Not only seemed to lack accountability but also be a huge waste of money. I didn't like that our government used the EU as a scapegoat for laws it probably wanted to bring in but couldn't get past parliament and public scrutiny. I thought it was over reaching in it's legislation going far beyond simple trade regulation. I didn't like freedom of movement.

I did like visa free access for travel and healthcare provision when abroad, and I did like VAT free easy purchasing but neither of those benefits outweighed the costs IMO.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

ivan said:


> I voted to join ...


You didn't.


----------



## Nick Laguna UK

Noel said:


> Brexit going well in Larne:


Hi Noel - hope all is good with you and yours mate - very long time no speak/see I know.
In fairness many of us know that this sort of extremism has always existed by people trying to capitalise on any issue to create further issues 
Not saying there are no issues, but jeez I wish people would just deal with it - that's the pragmatic solution - whoever sprays things like that to intimidate others who are just working has no place, sure you agree too.
I remember seeing some 'tout' graffiti outing people (pre-social media) in the mid 90's around Belfast and often wondered what their motives were, and worryingly what the consequences were..
Cheers and all the best,
Nick.


----------



## Rorschach

Noel said:


> Brexit going well in Larne:



We don't negotiate with terrorists.


----------



## Droogs

yes we do


----------



## Mark Hancock

Rorschach said:


> We don't negotiate with terrorists.


The ignorance of youth.


----------



## Noho12C

Rorschach said:


> I didn't like freedom of movement.
> 
> I did like visa free access for travel and healthcare provision when abroad



Seems a bit like an antinomy, no ? Or were you expecting freedom of movement for UK citizen only ?


----------



## RobinBHM

Whatever the ideological arguments, as a group of woodworkers it's an awful shame to have a massive marketplace of woodworking tools to be more difficult to access.

I'd like to think buying woodworking tools unites us more on this parish than sovrinty


----------



## Rorschach

Noho12C said:


> Seems a bit like an antinomy, no ? Or were you expecting freedom of movement for UK citizen only ?



Freedom of movement and visa free travel are not the same thing.


----------



## Noho12C

Well, if you have visa free travel, then you have freedom of movement.

Or are you talking specifically about the freedom of movement for workers ? Which is a different thing.


----------



## Mark Hancock

Rorschach said:


> Freedom of movement and visa free travel are not the same thing.


Please explain.


----------



## Rorschach

@Noho12C @Mark Hancock 
Freedom of movement (as I see it anyway) is the freedom to travel anywhere within the EU for as long as you like, and work there/own property etc. You basically enjoy the rights of any citizen living in that country.

Visa free travel is the ability to travel to any country without applying for a visa and being allowed to stay for example 3 months. Depending on the agreement you may be allowed to work etc for some/all of that period. You have no rights to state healthcare, benefits etc. As I understand it we will have visa free travel within the EU very much like we do with the USA.

Does that makemore sense now? My apologies if my wording made it confusing.


----------



## Sandb1g

Richard_C said:


> No chance of travel at the moment, but in the past I have picked up the odd tool or bit of kit when I've been driving through France or similar. Got a few necessary bits for my 2CV once when they were hard to find in the UK. Those of a certain age will remember customs limits, X litres of wine etc., N cigars and suchlike and duty on almost anything else. I remember buying an ice axe in Andorra and managing to convince a customs man who did an 'open boot please' check that it was for personal use and had been used - evidenced by the dents on the shaft - so he reluctantly didn't charge duty on it.
> 
> Anyway, those days are back:
> 
> www.gov.uk/guidance/bringing-goods-into-great-britain-from-outside-the-uk-from-1-january-2021
> 
> 
> 
> _You can bring in other goods worth up to £390 (or up to £270 if you arrive by private plane or boat). If a single item’s worth more than your allowance you pay duty or tax on its full value, not just the value above the allowance.
> 
> If you go over your allowance then you will pay customs duty on the total value of your goods. The rate:_
> 
> 
> _is 2.5% for goods worth up to £630_
> _depends on the type of goods if they’re worth more than £630_
> _From 1 January 2021, you will be able to check your allowances, make a declaration and pay any tax using an online service for passengers.
> 
> You will also have to pay VAT at the standard UK rates._
> 
> It's a per person limit, you can't join them up so if you buy a fancy tool for £500 you can't say "ah but my wife owns half of it....." and split it over 2 allowances.
> 
> I guess anything you buy online/mail order from specialist retailers will attract the whole vat fee+handling charge palaver now as well. No idea what will happen in Northern Ireland with its open border.
> 
> Gosh I'm looking forward to all of this, the forms look delightful.


.


----------



## Jacob

Government advising businesses to move to Europe. Obvious really.  









Move to EU to avoid Brexit costs, firms told


Exporters advised by Department for International Trade officials to form EU-based companies to circumvent border issues




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Danieljw

Zzzzzzzzzz!


----------



## MarkDennehy

Rorschach said:


> We don't negotiate with terrorists.


I'm not sure that statement really sits well with reported news in the UK press:









Loyalists hold talks with NIO to express anger over Irish sea border


Loyalists have held talks with the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) about the Irish Sea border and any threat it may represent to the Union.




www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk






> Loyalists have held talks with the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) about the Irish Sea border and any threat it may represent to the Union.
> ...
> The LCC is an umbrella organisation representing loyalist groups including the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando,



That was this week just gone.

This is earlier, from when the DUP were backing Theresa May (which was not the most stabilising of political arrangements in NI, I think it's fair to say):








DUP defends Arlene Foster's 'astonishing' meetings with senior loyalists


THE DUP has defended its leader's decision to meet loyalist paramilitaries to discuss the implications of a mooted Brexit deal that could see a so-called border in the Irish Sea.




www.irishnews.com






> THE DUP has defended its leader's decision to meet loyalist paramilitaries to discuss the implications of a mooted Brexit deal that could see a so-called border in the Irish Sea.




It is somewhat of a long-running pattern that predates recent years though.


Rorschach said:


> Freedom of movement (as I see it anyway) is the freedom to travel anywhere within the EU for as long as you like, and work there/own property etc. You basically enjoy the rights of any citizen living in that country.


Not fully. You'd have no right to vote, for a start.


> Visa free travel is the ability to travel to any country without applying for a visa and being allowed to stay for example 3 months. Depending on the agreement you may be allowed to work etc for some/all of that period. You have no rights to state healthcare, benefits etc. As I understand it we will have visa free travel within the EU very much like we do with the USA.


That's not accurate.

Ireland might be a special case because there's a preexisting Common Travel Area agreement in place, but there are some questions over that because the sheer scale of the changes brexit wrought is so extensive that nobody is completely sure it's not been undermined; removing the foundation of almost forty years of law overnight has too many side effects to be really sure about much.

But within the wider EU, no, there is no CTA and while you don't require a visa today - part of the transition agreement means there's some leeway - you have to have a valid passport and apply for entry with that and what consitutes a valid passport is tighter than you're used to:








Will I need a visa to travel to the EU after Brexit?


Will I need a visa to travel to the EU after Brexit?




www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Terry - Somerset

The UK signed up to the EU following a referendum with an overwhelming majority (66:34). Since then our elected representative signed up to further major changes - in particular Maastricht (1992) and Lisbon (2007). 

The 2016 referendum which ultimately took us out of the EU was a major mistake. But we need to make it work as well as we can. There may be pressure to rejoin in the years to come - but it will not happen in this decade!

There are clearly some teething problems - no surprise. The issues were not properly resolved in good time - a few days notice is a complete indictment of the negotiating tactics and process. 

However both importers and exporters have failed to understand and complete documentation properly. There was always going to be additional paperwork and customes declatations. Complications associated with VAT were all but inevitable.

To use the first three weeks outside of the EU as the basis for forming or reinforcing opinions is daft. Exit will clearly change supply chains, possibly prices and suppliers - but it would make more sense to assess how it is working in six months when at least some of the anomalies have been resolved.


----------



## Jacob

Terry - Somerset said:


> ...To use the first three weeks outside of the EU as the basis for forming or reinforcing opinions is daft. Exit will clearly change supply chains, possibly prices and suppliers - but it would make more sense to assess how it is working in six months when at least some of the anomalies have been resolved.


Just in time delivery means it matters now, not in 6 months.
It seems many small businesses will be closed in 6 months time.
We can, and we need to have an opinion of how things are going currently.
We can also compare this with what we were promised during the last four years.
We can change our minds if things turn out differently 6 months hence.
If things aren't working well in 6 months we will be able to point the finger of blame at all those who voted to leave, and say it's all your fault!


----------



## RobinBHM

Terry - Somerset said:


> The UK signed up to the EU following a referendum with an overwhelming majority (66:34). Since then our elected representative signed up to further major changes - in particular Maastricht (1992) and Lisbon (2007).
> 
> The 2016 referendum which ultimately took us out of the EU was a major mistake. But we need to make it work as well as we can. There may be pressure to rejoin in the years to come - but it will not happen in this decade!
> 
> There are clearly some teething problems - no surprise. The issues were not properly resolved in good time - a few days notice is a complete indictment of the negotiating tactics and process.
> 
> However both importers and exporters have failed to understand and complete documentation properly. There was always going to be additional paperwork and customes declatations. Complications associated with VAT were all but inevitable.
> 
> To use the first three weeks outside of the EU as the basis for forming or reinforcing opinions is daft. Exit will clearly change supply chains, possibly prices and suppliers - but it would make more sense to assess how it is working in six months when at least some of the anomalies have been resolved.


Great post.

temporary: issues will get resolved as businesses get trained and new administration systems get refined

permanent: additional permanent cost increases and technical delays will force business change, either finding new sales, new supply chains, bankruptcy, moving to be inside SM

longer term: who knows but commerce will probably trump ideology and UK will most likely build a closer relationship with the EU


----------



## Jake

There's a serious risk the UK will never build a closer relationship with the EU, because one of the prices of Brexit will be its existence.


----------



## Jacob

RobinBHM said:


> ....
> 
> longer term: who knows


Who knows? You mean you have no particular expectations of any benefits?


> ......but commerce will probably trump ideology and UK will most likely build a closer relationship with the EU


Probably correct - and the question will be raised as to why we put ourselves through the mill (for however long it takes and how much it costs) if we are going to end up in much the same place, but with a diminished reputation, less power, less influence than we ever had


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Terry - Somerset said:


> The UK signed up to the EU following a referendum with an overwhelming majority (66:34).



The UK voted to remain in the EEC ...

Ftfy.


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> ...moving to be inside SM


Potentially sacking staff in the UK, and moving your business operations to an EU nation doesn't exactly sound like a big win for the UK.

I suppose Rees-Mogg would tell parliament they'll be happy because they'll be British Businesses! Just without the staff, or the location. But I guess they at least wouldn't be fish.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Terry - Somerset said:


> There are clearly some teething problems - no surprise.


Quite a lot of people in the logistics industry - the people actually driving the trucks, so to speak - have been saying for quite some time that these are not teething problems, but structural ones. That seems worrying.

Also, as bad as things are at the moment, remember that for NI at least, they are still in the three month grace period before full certification checks will be applied on goods coming from GB to NI. So if these are teething problems, either they get resolved rather rapidly, or the UK will watch one of its union suffer food shortages. 

I mean, this is the Irish guy telling you this, so the irony meter just punched it's needle out the far side of the case...


----------



## artie

Terry - Somerset said:


> The UK signed up to the EU following a referendum with an overwhelming majority (66:34).



I don't recall a referendum before we entered, but I was only a kid so wasn't paying too much attention.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

You didn't recall it because it there wasn't one.


----------



## Noel

Phil Pascoe said:


> You didn't recall it because it there wasn't one.



I was reading the other day there was a ref in the mid 70s about continued membership of the EEC. Think there’s only been the two EEC/EU.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

Putting effort and emotion into complaining about what has happened is pointless. The battle has been fought (not very well by Remainers) and lost. I don't like it either but get used to it.

There is close to zero chance of re-entry in the next decade. It is likely the Tories will be in control for the next four years. 

A new goverment in 1924, if they pursue a policy of re-entry, will need a few years to win a referendum, agree with EU and implement. We are unlikely to get as good a deal as we had before exit. 

In 10+ years when we look to see whether it was all worth it, both sides will selectively point to data that proves their point. 

As the government have failed to agree success criteria - what does it mean in terms of growth, employment, inflation etc - we will probably never know whether it was a success. In business this would be poor project management.

Nigel Farage formed UKIP in 1992. It took 20+ years to put Brexit on the agenda leading to the referendum. He is a very effective, persuasive communicator (like him or not). Unless utterly overwhelming it will be another 20 years before there is a real prospect of change.


----------



## sploo

Terry - Somerset said:


> Unless utterly overwhelming it will be another 20 years before there is a real prospect of change.


By which time we'll have robbed a generation the freedoms and opportunities we had, all so we could reduce our own rights and rot some squid in a lorry.

Well, not Farage's kids obviously; he can get them German passports.


----------



## Sandb1g

Would it work ROI and Nor5hern Ireland?


----------



## Sandb1g

Terry - Somerset said:


> Putting effort and emotion into complaining about what has happened is pointless. The battle has been fought (not very well by Remainers) and lost. I don't like it either but get used to it.
> 
> There is close to zero chance of re-entry in the next decade. It is likely the Tories will be in control for the next four years.
> 
> A new goverment in 1924, if they pursue a policy of re-entry, will need a few years to win a referendum, agree with EU and implement. We are unlikely to get as good a deal as we had before exit.
> 
> In 10+ years when we look to see whether it was all worth it, both sides will selectively point to data that proves their point.
> 
> As the government have failed to agree success criteria - what does it mean in terms of growth, employment, inflation etc - we will probably never know whether it was a success. In business this would be poor project management.
> 
> Nigel Farage formed UKIP in 1992. It took 20+ years to put Brexit on the agenda leading to the referendum. He is a very effective, persuasive communicator (like him or not). Unless utterly overwhelming it will be another 20 years before there is a real prospect of change.


I can see Scotland going it alone and joining the EU


----------



## Rorschach

Sandb1g said:


> I can see Scotland going it alone and joining the EU



Unlikely the EU would let them join, at least not until they set up their own independent bank and sorted out their debts which could take years.

I don't have a problem with Scottish independence, I don't think it would be good for the people of Scotland though and to be honest it isn't in the interest of the SNP as they would lose their appeal very quickly as rulers of an independent Scotland, their track record on the power they do wield is shameful and they only get away with it because they can blame failings on Westminster.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> I don't have a problem with Scottish independence, I don't think it would be good for the people of Scotland though and to be honest it isn't in the interest of the SNP as they would lose their appeal very quickly as rulers of an independent Scotland, their track record on the power they do wield is shameful and they only get away with it because they can blame failings on Westminster.


Oh the irony of replacing Scotland with the UK, the SNP with the Tory Brexiteers, and Westminster with the EU.


----------



## RobinBHM

Jake said:


> There's a serious risk the UK will never build a closer relationship with the EU, because one of the prices of Brexit will be its existence.



Maybe the DUK will rejoin (Dis United Kingdom)


----------



## RobinBHM

Sandb1g said:


> I can see Scotland going it alone and joining the EU



That would be mad.....a customs border between England and Scotland.


----------



## Droogs

can't wait, got popcorn in for the show already. So looking forward to Danger Mouth and his faithful bumlick the govester using all the brexit remainers reasons to stay in the union. should be lots of fun


----------



## Droogs

I know people who were ardent unionists and while they can't stand the SNP will support them until independance, specifically to be an EU member state and free of westmister and the tories


----------



## Noel

It’s ok everyone, The Telegraph has come to their senses, Brexit is the fault of Angela Merkel. According to Ambrose Evans Pritchard, apparently International Business Editor.......oh, and the EU is broke:


----------



## RobinBHM

Jacob said:


> Probably correct - and the question will be raised as to why we put ourselves through the mill


The answer is easy: financial self interest of a wealthy few.

There tends to be a misconception that the Leave campaign was one group with one ideology.

But Brexit was enabled by a disparate group, made up of:

ideological dinosaurs still clinging to the British Empire (Bill Cash, John Redwood),

financial self interest (Steve Baker, Rees Mogg), 

Career self interest (PM, Liz Truss etc), 

Disaster capitalists: (Crispen Oden, Farage)

Deregulation: (Richard Tice)

Private Healthcare opportunities with USA: ( take yer pick, Owen Paterson, Hancock etc etc)

Connection to USA libertarian groups (Matthew Elliott)

Climate change deniers / fossil fuel interests (Koch Brothers)

Brexit propaganda sites ( Institute of economic affairs.....and a dozen more


Weirdly they all seems to connect at an address in London: 55 Tufton street.









Mapped: Boris Johnson's Cabinet and the Tufton Street Lobbying Network


Boris Johnson has retained a core of ministers linked to a lobbying network pushing to weaken the UK’s environmental regulations in his first cabinet reshuffle since the general election. But the day also saw a number of high-profile sackings, potentially weakening the network’s influence in...




www.desmog.co.uk






Where we are headed in this parliament is: deregulation (banking, tax avoidance, employment rights, healthcare) and a hidden USA deal (albeit ruined by Trump losing)


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> That would be mad.....a customs border between England and Scotland.


Well, there's already a wall, so....


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> It’s ok everyone, The Telegraph has come to their senses, Brexit is the fault of Angela Merkel. According to Ambrose Evans Pritchard, apparently International Business Editor.......oh, and the EU is broke:



I'm pretty sure it was the Telegraph that recently had an article complaining that current Brexit problems are all down the government, and are all the things "we Brexiteers" warned them about. I must have been out that day. You know, the one where they were warning about all the problems with Brexit.

Still, full marks for their superb gaslighting.

EDIT: It would be great if the Telegraph could make their minds up though; apparently Brexit would be great, but if they're now implying it's the "fault" of someone then that would rather indicate it's not considered to be a good thing?


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> Telegraph



Telegraph = broadsheet version of Daily Mail


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> Telegraph = broadsheet version of Daily Mail


Oh I know it smells of excrement wrapped in a thin veneer of fake respectability (whereas the Mail is just excrement), but the logical fallacies and gaslighting over how Brexit is now all the fault of others is hilarious; though, obviously, absolutely entirely and utterly predicted long ago.

Off/back on topic; I had recently been considering buying a Prusa 3D printer. Probably not a good time with Covid etc but just thought I'd check their site:

"Currently we are not accepting UK orders due to Brexit issues."


----------



## MarkDennehy

RobinBHM said:


> That would be mad.....a customs border between England and Scotland.


Why mad? You've already got one land border between the UK and EU...


----------



## MarkDennehy

Noel said:


> It’s ok everyone, The Telegraph ...



Heh. Sorry, but after the Telegraph's most recent note on the liklihood of how Biden would be favorably disposed towards the UK, I can't help but feel you shouldn't put much faith in their analysis


----------



## billw

So.... any good news stories emerging about us leaving yet? Is it still a no?


----------



## Jake

We got rid of 5k foreigners taking up NHS nursing jobs if that counts.


----------



## Fergie 307

Droogs said:


> Winston Churchill in fact stated at the end of the war "what is needed is in fact a United States of Europe". In fact here is the man's very speech
> 
> The Bold is my input
> 
> *United States of Europe*
> *September 19, 1946. University of Zurich*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish to speak about the tragedy of Europe, this noble continent, the home of all the great parent races of the Western world, the foundation of Christian faith and ethics, the origin of most of the culture, arts, philosophy and science both of ancient and modern times. If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance there would be no limit to the happiness, prosperity and glory which its 300 million or 400 million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that has sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations in their rise to power, which we have seen in this 20th century and in our own lifetime wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.
> 
> 
> What is this plight to which Europe has been reduced? Some of the smaller states have indeed made a good recovery, but over wide areas are a vast, quivering mass of tormented, hungry, careworn and bewildered human beings, who wait in the ruins of their cities and homes and scan the dark horizons for the approach of some new form of tyranny or terror. Among the victors there is a Babel of voices, among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair. That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient states and nations, and that is all that the Germanic races have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide. Indeed, but for the fact that the great republic across the Atlantic realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve her own fate as well, and stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor. They may still return.
> 
> 
> Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. *We must build a kind of United States of Europe*. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.


Think you underestimate the significance of the two words "kind of". Churchill never suggested the surrender of individual countries sovereignty to an overarching European Parliament. This is typical of the sort of misinterpretation that is so annoying. The idea was to try and prevent any resurgence of German power, and to present a unified front against communism. The best way to do these things was for all the countries to be members of a club, where differences could be resolved by talking, rather than shooting at one another.


----------



## Fergie 307

ivan said:


> Thanks for the debunking of the "we only signed up to a trading club" nonsense. I voted to join and remember a lot of discussion about how trading would open the door to an ever increasing union in the future. Those who believe we were overrun by the armies of "ruling unelected Brussels bureaucrats" should remember that there are more civil servants up Newcastle way in the department of work and pensions than in Brussels! Brussels produced proposals for the members to debate, much as in the UK where legislation is also drawn up by unelected civil servants, and only later approved (or not) by the ministers concerned, before being debated (or pushed through by the whips) in the House.
> Churchill saw that the pooling of sovereignity (every member gave some up) would deliver a symbiotic advantage, the sum being more powerful than the parts. Rather useful in an increasingly global world largely controlled by economic might.
> 
> I can't help thinking of a future ocean of sharks, where it will pay to be a big one, or a member of a co-operating pack. Or maybe one of those small camp follower fish that scavenge their shark host for parasites and crumbs from his fearsome bite...


Exactly, a co-operating pack. It was perfectly sensible to introduce co-operation in other areas, the Schengen Treaty being a good example. The problem is that it has become increasingly obvious that some want to go way beyond close co-operation. The aim now seems to be to create a literal United States Of Europe, with a single central government. Personally I can't see any of the member states accepting that. The EU desperately needs to reform, the problem being that any meaningful reform would have to be undertaken by the very people who would likely lose their jobs as a result. Not surprisingly they are about as likely to do this as turkeys are to vote for Christmas. It's a great shame as the EU was a great idea, and still can be If they can get a grip of the very clear problems it has. I hope the shock of us leaving will force some real reform, but I doubt it. If another major country leaves, and I suspect France may be next, then the whole thing will fall apart, which would be a great shame.


----------



## sploo

billw said:


> So.... any good news stories emerging about us leaving yet? Is it still a no?


Happy British Fish!

(yea... no, nada, zilch, nil, nowt, nothing, fornicate all)

If only someone had warned it wasn't a good idea eh?


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> The aim now seems to be to create a literal United States Of Europe



Like every big organisation, there are some empire builders inside the European Parliament.
But there are also plenty of more moderates wanting a looser Union.
There is also 27 nation states most of which don't want a political union.

"United States of Europe" is a one sided view, part of a Brexiters armoury.


Polling consistency shows EU is popular in pretty much every EU nation, there's no chance of any wanting to leave, esp France.
The problem is the UK media is full of stories claiming "XYZ country on verge of leaving".......usually quoting some unnamed minor politician.


----------



## Fergie 307

Jake said:


> View attachment 101562


OMG now we're quoting the Daily Mail as a source of indisputable fact, really??
Have to say I'm with Margot from the good life on that one.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Bild Zeitung a couple of weeks ago - 


In the end — as Germany’s most respected politician today, Wolfgang Schaeuble, the President of our Bundestag Parliament, admits — the urge is to align fiscal and budget policies. This will centralise the EU to such an extent that not only separate national governments, but even the nations themselves will become a thing of the past, at least in all practical and legal senses.


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> Like every big organisation, there are some empire builders inside the European Parliament.
> But there are also plenty of more moderates wanting a looser Union.
> There is also 27 nation states most of which don't want a political union.
> 
> "United States of Europe" is a one sided view, part of a Brexiters armoury.
> 
> 
> Polling consistency shows EU is popular in pretty much every EU nation, there's no chance of any wanting to leave, esp France.
> The problem is the UK media is full of stories claiming "XYZ country on verge of leaving".......usually quoting some unnamed minor politician.


Macron won the French election out of nowhere, in an almost Trumpesque upset. He did so on the back of promises he has been unable to fulfil and is now deeply unpopular. Who is waiting in the wings, the likes of Marie Le Penn, right wing nationalists. They have made it very clear that they would seek to leave, so I wouldn't be so sure. Very sadly these sort of right wing politicians are gaining popularity in many countries, and many have similar anti EU views.
I really worry what will happen when Frau Merkel goes. She has been such a towering figure in European politics. Unfortunately she has already run into difficulties at home because of her liberal stance on immigration in particular. Now we have left Germany is by far the largest contributor to the EU, and the right wing there are very vocal in their opposition to what they are as Germany having to prop up other members. I have no idea who will replace Merkel, but it seems a fair bet that it will be someone less liberal than she has been.


----------



## Fergie 307

Phil Pascoe said:


> Bild Zeitung a couple of weeks ago -
> 
> 
> In the end — as Germany’s most respected politician today, Wolfgang Schaeuble, the President of our Bundestag Parliament, admits — the urge is to align fiscal and budget policies. This will centralise the EU to such an extent that not only separate national governments, but even the nations themselves will become a thing of the past, at least in all practical and legal senses.


That seems a pretty fair assessment to me, and exactly why I think we are better off to leave. Where is the urge he speaks of coming from, not one suspects the member countries governments. This is the problem. The Commission set up to administer the necessary bureaucracy to facilitate co-operation in trade and other areas has ceased to see itself as the servant of the members, it now wants to be the boss.


----------



## jcassidy

Phil Pascoe said:


> Bild Zeitung a couple of weeks ago -
> 
> 
> In the end — as Germany’s most respected politician today, Wolfgang Schaeuble, the President of our Bundestag Parliament



Now you're quoting the German version of the Telegraph, quoting the guy who invented austerity budgets, wanted to burn Greece, sink Spain, barred Germany from taking on any new debt, and was all for the invasion of Iraq...


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> That seems a pretty fair assessment to me, and exactly why I think we are better off to leave. Where is the urge he speaks of coming from, not one suspects the member countries governments. This is the problem. The Commission set up to administer the necessary bureaucracy to facilitate co-operation in trade and other areas has ceased to see itself as the servant of the members, it now wants to be the boss.


So - I'm not going to disagree with most of the sentences in the above post, but think for a minute why the first sentence may be a problem. Take a look at our current boss (and his motley crew of malevolent incompetents) and ask yourself the question; are we _really_ better off to leave?

Point being; whenever someone complains of the risk of being run by "their lot", they rather ignore the quality of "our lot". Does anyone really think our governments are our servants?


----------



## Phil Pascoe

jcassidy said:


> Now you're quoting the German version of the Telegraph, quoting the guy who invented austerity budgets, wanted to burn Greece, sink Spain, barred Germany from taking on any new debt, and was all for the invasion of Iraq...


Actually I'm quoting Wolfgang Schaeuble. Just because you object to the source it doesn't make what he said matter less.


----------



## billw

Phil Pascoe said:


> Actually I'm quoting Wolfgang Schaeuble. Just because you object to the source it doesn't make what he said matter less.



I think his point was that the publication is selective in who they quote, and the guy might be quite extreme.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Something that might actually be of use, from today's Times -

Sir, Your leading article (“Making Brexit Work”, Jan 22) raised a number of important issues that the government is working hard to address. I wanted to correct the record on the helpline for HMRC’s Chief IT system for customs. I’m pleased to confirm that there is a helpline. The number is 0300 3222 9434 and businesses can also speak to an adviser online at tax.service.gov.uk. The helpline has taken around 20,000 calls in the past two weeks and handled roughly 91 per cent of calls, with an average speed-to-answer of around 20 seconds. We appreciate that businesses have done an enormous amount to prepare for the changes that Brexit brings and some are encountering difficulties as we adjust to our new relationship. We stand ready to help ensure goods can continue to flow smoothly and support businesses to deal with the changes.
*Lord Agnew of Oulton*, minister,
HM Treasury and Cabinet Office


----------



## Phil Pascoe

billw said:


> I think his point was that the publication is selective in who they quote, and the guy might be quite extreme.


All newspapers are. It doesn't make quotes any less valid.


----------



## billw

Phil Pascoe said:


> All newspapers are. It doesn't make quotes any less valid.



Well it makes them no less *true*.


----------



## Droogs

Fergie 307 said:


> Think you underestimate the significance of the two words "kind of". Churchill never suggested the surrender of individual countries sovereignty to an overarching European Parliament. This is typical of the sort of misinterpretation that is so annoying. The idea was to try and prevent any resurgence of German power, and to present a unified front against communism. The best way to do these things was for all the countries to be members of a club, where differences could be resolved by talking, rather than shooting at one another.


That is exactly what we had, a semi federal EU where countries gave up some sovereign powers for the collective good but on the whole retain the right to take them back and also swing the full strength of all their other powers. Remember no EU law could be applied in the UK until it was ratified by our own parliament not a single EU directive or law has ever been put on the statute books in the UK with prior ratification and approval of our MPs.


----------



## Noel

Fergie 307 said:


> Macron won the French election out of nowhere, in an almost Trumpesque upset. He did so on the back of promises he has been unable to fulfil and is now deeply unpopular. Who is waiting in the wings, the likes of Marie Le Penn, right wing nationalists. They have made it very clear that they would seek to leave, so I wouldn't be so sure. Very sadly these sort of right wing politicians are gaining popularity in many countries, and many have similar anti EU views.
> I really worry what will happen when Frau Merkel goes. She has been such a towering figure in European politics. Unfortunately she has already run into difficulties at home because of her liberal stance on immigration in particular. Now we have left Germany is by far the largest contributor to the EU, and the right wing there are very vocal in their opposition to what they are as Germany having to prop up other members. I have no idea who will replace Merkel, but it seems a fair bet that it will be someone less liberal than she has been.



You’re a bit out of touch with French politics. Marine Le Penn (not Marie) is pro EU and pro Euro. Her FN party has moved to the centre right after the 2017 election loss (Macron’s LREM party won on a pro EU with deeper ties to Brussels ticket) and is viewed as republican, as opposed to her father’s nationalist far right views, views for which his daughter expelled him from the party.


----------



## Fergie 307

sploo said:


> So - I'm not going to disagree with most of the sentences in the above post, but think for a minute why the first sentence may be a problem. Take a look at our current boss (and his motley crew of malevolent incompetents) and ask yourself the question; are we _really_ better off to leave?
> 
> Point being; whenever someone complains of the risk of being run by "their lot", they rather ignore the quality of "our lot". Does anyone really think our governments are our servants?


I recall a marvellous observation made some time ago by Will Self on question time. He said that we get the politicians we deserve, his reasoning being that we moan when they lie, but if they tell us the truth we won't vote for them. Whilst I wouldn't normally expect to agree with him, on this point I think he was spot on. I couldn't agree more about our current leading politicians, a right shower the lot of them. But at least we have the opportunity to boot them out after a few years, which makes them have to have at least some interest in doing whatever they were elected to do. Whether you like the German politician quoted or not, his is a pretty accurate summary of the long term goals of the EU. If you want to be governed by an EU president then fair play, I dont.


----------



## billw

Fergie 307 said:


> If you want to be governed by an EU president then fair play, I dont.



Can I just ask you to clarify the reasons why?


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> I recall a marvellous observation made some time ago by Will Self on question time. He said that we get the politicians we deserve, his reasoning being that we moan when they lie, but if they tell us the truth we won't vote for them. Whilst I wouldn't normally expect to agree with him, on this point I think he was spot on. I couldn't agree more about our current leading politicians, a right shower the lot of them. But at least we have the opportunity to boot them out after a few years, which makes them have to have at least some interest in doing whatever they were elected to do. Whether you like the German politician quoted or not, his is a pretty accurate summary of the long term goals of the EU. If you want to be governed by an EU president then fair play, I dont.


Agree completely re the politicians we get - but then it's pretty much the same at the EU level too (at least, in the sense that we can - or could - vote for MEPs, and vote them out).

One benefit of having so many differing voices (in the EU system) is that it's probably pretty hard for one extremist group to take charge. It's also harder for those with money to influence (as they'd have to influence so many different politicians in so many different countries). Case in point - Rupert Murdoch a few years ago claiming huge influence in UK politics, but a dislike of the EU because they didn't listen to him (read: he couldn't influence/bully/blackmail enough of them). As such (and certainly given recent governments in the UK) I'd struggle to see it would be worse for us to be governed by an EU president!


----------



## Fergie 307

Noel said:


> You’re a bit out of touch with French politics. Marine Le Penn (not Marie) is pro EU and pro Euro. Her FN party has moved to the centre right after the 2017 election loss (Macron’s LREM party won on a pro EU with deeper ties to Brussels ticket) and is viewed as republican, as opposed to her father’s nationalist far right views, views for which his daughter expelled him from the party.


And you're not at all suspicious that their apparent change of heart might just be a political ploy to make them more appealing, after all everyone was taken a bit by surprise by Macron.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

... Rupert Murdoch a few years ago claiming huge influence in UK politics, but a dislike of the EU because they didn't listen to him ...

He denied ever saying it, and there is no proof that he did.


----------



## sploo

Phil Pascoe said:


> ... Rupert Murdoch a few years ago claiming huge influence in UK politics, but a dislike of the EU because they didn't listen to him ...
> 
> He denied ever saying it, and there is no proof that he did.


Evening Standard link with quote:




__





Stay or go - the lack of solid facts means it’s all a leap of faith


Despite what the In and Out campaigns say, there’s nothing to back up either position with any certainty




www.standard.co.uk





He _might_ not have said it; sure - but it's been reported a few times, and certainly he holds (or at least, held) huge power over UK politics (and much less so over the EU as a whole).

If he has denied saying it, it would be a great irony for the owner of the Sun to be upset about false reporting from a newspaper wouldn't it?


----------



## Fergie 307

billw said:


> Can I just ask you to clarify the reasons why?


Because whilst I am all for co operation between our countries, in trade, security and all manner of other things that are mutually beneficial, I don't see why that should have to involve a central government. I believe that we had reached the stage where the EU was already too powerful, and it's ambition is to seek ever more power. I don't believe we need to go in that direction to preserve co operation. I firmly believe that all countries should retain their independence. The ideal of the EU seems increasingly to bring all the participating nations under one central government, which I think is both unworkable and wrong. Since they have resisted all meaningful reform we were left with a choice. Stay and accept ever increasing interference, and the long term possibility of central rule, or leave. I believe we made the right choice. Was it ever going to be a walk in the park, no. Anyone who believed that was incredibly naive. However the reality is that the vast majority of the countries in the world are not members of the EU, and, shock horror, don't appear to be destitute as a result, so the idea that we have somehow cast ourselves into the wilderness is just nonsense. It will take time, and there will be pain but in the long term I think everything will get sorted out, including our relationship with the EU. We will all want to sell each other the same stuff we did before and I'm quite sure that in time commerce will trump politics and ways will be found. Let's not forget we have always bought far more from them than they have from us, that is simple fact and they will naturally want to keep doing so. I can't see the likes of VAG for example sitting on their hands whilst their products take a hit In one of their biggest markets, this would be insane. Hopefully it won't be too long before we can get over the stupid political posturing on both sides, and start sorting out the practicalities of how this is actually going to work. The EU, like some remainers, have to accept what has happened and get over it, the alternative is that they will end up cutting off their nose to spite their face.
In the meantime we can pursue trade with the rest of the world free from the constraints of the EU. There are big opportunities, especially when you consider that emerging economies like India are places where we already have close ties.


----------



## doctor Bob

I can here the cogs whirring .................... 
Input, input, press buttons .................... repeat repeat repeat. 

Exterminate exterminate exterminate.


----------



## jcassidy

Phil Pascoe said:


> Actually I'm quoting Wolfgang Schaeuble. Just because you object to the source it doesn't make what he said matter less.



Schauble is a hawk and represents a minority view within Germany - a powerful minority, nonetheless. There is a reason why he has never managed to make it as Chancellor, despite having been around since the Kohl era. If I recall correctly, he's been forced to resign a time or two over various dubious dealings but has always managed to claw his way back into the centre. Check his wikipedia page! 

I would just as easily find some quotes from other powerful German politicians advocating a less intrusive EU, the Bavarians for example are a powerful block and are very leery of Berlin having any say in what happens in Munich, never mind Brussels. Soder, for example, wanted Greece out of the EU, didn't want the Romanians in, and is totally against the idea of greater fiscal co-operation.


----------



## doctor Bob

Resigned a time or two, sounds like a normal politician.
The only time it seems to cause damage to your career is if you have ladies tights on, a corset and are trussed up like a turkey.


----------



## Peterm1000

Oh dear, oh dear... where to start.

1. Brexit is done. The deal has been cut. Let's get over whether that is good or bad and hold the victors to account. They said it would all be great.
2. Bild Zeitung - it means "Picture Paper". It is somewhere between the Sun and the Sunday Sport. Hardly the equivalent of the Daily Telegraph.
3. " However the reality is that the vast majority of the countries in the world are not members of the EU, and, shock horror, don't appear to be destitute as a result, so the idea that we have somehow cast ourselves into the wilderness is just nonsense ". There are 171 countries in the world. Libya and Armenia are the mid point and the average Brit has 15 times the wealth they have. The EU countries are basically in the top 30 and once you get out of the top 40, we have around 10 times the average wealth per inhabitant. So the majority of the world does appear to be nearly destitute...


----------



## Phil Pascoe

2. Bild Zeitung - it means "Picture Paper". It is somewhere between the Sun and the Sunday Sport. Hardly the equivalent of the Daily Telegraph. 

Which makes not the slightest difference to the quote.


----------



## Fergie 307

doctor Bob said:


> Resigned a time or two, sounds like a normal politician.
> The only time it seems to cause damage to your career is if you have ladies tights on, a corset and are trussed up like a turkey.


Oh I don't know, sounds like a fairly tame evening for some of them !


----------



## Fergie 307

Peterm1000 said:


> Oh dear, oh dear... where to start.
> 
> 1. Brexit is done. The deal has been cut. Let's get over whether that is good or bad and hold the victors to account. They said it would all be great.
> 2. Bild Zeitung - it means "Picture Paper". It is somewhere between the Sun and the Sunday Sport. Hardly the equivalent of the Daily Telegraph.
> 3. " However the reality is that the vast majority of the countries in the world are not members of the EU, and, shock horror, don't appear to be destitute as a result, so the idea that we have somehow cast ourselves into the wilderness is just nonsense ". There are 171 countries in the world. Libya and Armenia are the mid point and the average Brit has 15 times the wealth they have. The EU countries are basically in the top 30 and once you get out of the top 40, we have around 10 times the average wealth per inhabitant. So the majority of the world does appear to be nearly destitute...


Ok, both probably a bit OTT. The point I am making is that some In the remain camp would have had us believe that if we left we would somehow be unable to survive on our own, and would all be down to bread and water, which is a bit daft.


----------



## Noel

Gardening online update:

www.trees-online.co.uk


----------



## Jacob

Peterm1000 said:


> Oh dear, oh dear... where to start.
> ...... the idea that we have somehow cast ourselves into the wilderness is just nonsense ......


Not what anybody is saying. 
But it would be interesting to hear of a good reason for having deliberately made our trading relationship with our greatest and nearest export/import market, so much more difficult. It seems nobody can think of anything.


----------



## Jacob

Fergie 307 said:


> Ok, both probably a bit OTT. The point I am making is that some In the remain camp would have had us believe that if we left we would somehow be unable to survive on our own, and would all be down to bread and water, which is a bit daft.


Not entirely daft - there are difficulties already, there will be shortages and businesses will be folding. 
What is really daft is that anybody believed anything Johnson said e.g. "oven ready deal" etc etc


----------



## Peterm1000

Phil Pascoe said:


> 2. Bild Zeitung - it means "Picture Paper". It is somewhere between the Sun and the Sunday Sport. Hardly the equivalent of the Daily Telegraph.
> 
> Which makes not the slightest difference to the quote.



No - but it does make a substantial impact on the likelihood of good journalism being employed in how the quote was edited and presented. Or maybe you think news media present news without any cultural or political bias.


----------



## Peterm1000

Jacob said:


> Not what anybody is saying.
> But it would be interesting to hear of a good reason for having deliberately made our trading relationship with our greatest and nearest export/import market, so much more difficult. It seems nobody can think of anything.



Just to be clear, you are quoting me quoting someone else. Those aren't my words or my viewpoint.


----------



## Spectric

And the next impact is Mastercard wants to rip of UK citizens purchasing from the EU by hiking fees Mastercard hikes up interchange fees for non UK merchants


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Peterm1000 said:


> No - but it does make a substantial impact on the likelihood of good journalism being employed in how the quote was edited and presented. Or maybe you think news media present news without any cultural or political bias.


I did say all newspapers are biased. Bias makes no difference to a quote - it's either a quote or it's not. I wouldn't expect a pro EU paper to publish the the quote, anyway. They don't like to admit openly what the intentions for the EU are - they still like to portray it as a happy little trading area, when it has been intended to be a political entity since The Treaty of Rome.


----------



## Fergie 307

Jacob said:


> Not entirely daft - there are difficulties already, there will be shortages and businesses will be folding.
> What is really daft is that anybody believed anything Johnson said e.g. "oven ready deal" etc etc


Or the numbers on the bus. Or Osbourne and co telling us that if we even voted to leave, much less actually did it, there would be an overnight economic melt down and the need to have an immediate emergency budget to control the resulting chaos. Both sides told some real whoppers throughout the campaign. But they are politicians, sadly lying comes as naturally to most of them as breathing.


----------



## alanpo68

Fergie 307 said:


> Or the numbers on the bus. Or Osbourne and co telling us that if we even voted to leave, much less actually did it, there would be an overnight economic melt down and the need to have an immediate emergency budget to control the resulting chaos. Both sides told some real whoppers throughout the campaign. But they are politicians, sadly lying comes as naturally to most of them as breathing.



Sterling dropped by 8.4% the day after the Brexit vote the biggest single day fall for a major currency since the Second World War.


----------



## Droogs

and i bet JRM and his mates made a fortune shortselling it


----------



## RobinBHM

Peterm1000 said:


> and hold the victors to account


It's tricky, they are as slippery as happy British fish.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Fergie 307 said:


> I firmly believe that all countries should retain their independence.


Sir, it appears you are posting this from the _"United Kingdom"_? This entity appears to comprise four separate yet not independent countries with a central government that isn't even in three of the countries...
...despite Scotland's thoughts on the matter 

Mind you, the way things are going, it's not an EU presidency you'd need to worry about but a Chinese general secretariat...


nb. I may be slightly salty because along with Tunnocks Teacakes and Twinings tea going up in price even before Tunnocks or Twinings have a say in things, I am unable to get tuffsaws bandsaw blades any more at all (Ian told me he just isn't shipping due to the VAT), and houseofwood bowl blanks are going to jump so much in price from the customs and shipping that I may actually wind up seeing my timber stock _*decrease*_ which is, as you can imagine, making my fingernails itch.


----------



## D_W

alanpo68 said:


> Sterling dropped by 8.4% the day after the Brexit vote the biggest single day fall for a major currency since the Second World War.



That should make your services and businesses more attractive to currency from other countries. 

Unless you manage to hamstring businesses with unnecessary costs and regulations to make them non-competitive, anyway.


----------



## RobinBHM

D_W said:


> That should make your services and businesses more attractive to currency from other countries



It's not quite as simple as that.

Most businesses need imported supplies.

Sadly the UK now has to contend with costly non tariff barriers to access its biggest trade partner....which are indeed making it less competitive.


----------



## Jake

Fergie 307 said:


> OMG now we're quoting the Daily Mail as a source of indisputable fact, really??
> Have to say I'm with Margot from the good life on that one.



Hardly, but the fact that they had a leader at the time of the 1975 referendum arguing that the ever closer union was nothing to be scared of is clear historical evidence that the discussion and vote at that time was not in respect of a vanilla free trade area as commonly claimed by brexity types.


----------



## Jake

Fergie 307 said:


> the likes of Marie Le Penn, right wing nationalists. They have made it very clear that they would seek to leave, so I wouldn't be so sure.



Le Pen has dropped that, having seen the balls up that Brexit is. Now all the talk is of reform.


----------



## Droogs

MarkDennehy said:


> nb. I may be slightly salty because along with Tunnocks Teacakes and Twinings tea going up in price even before Tunnocks or Twinings have a say in things, I am unable to get tuffsaws bandsaw blades any more at all (Ian told me he just isn't shipping due to the VAT), and houseofwood bowl blanks are going to jump so much in price from the customs and shipping that I may actually wind up seeing my timber stock _*decrease*_ which is, as you can imagine, making my fingernails itch.



I am open to begin tunnock smuggling operations if you feel there is a market


----------



## RobinBHM

Jake said:


> Le Pen has dropped that, having seen the balls up that Brexit is. Now all the talk is of reform.



The narrative that "EU is about to collapse" is built from hunting down the small minority of Euro sceptic political parties in Europe. 

"EU about to collapse" is just Brexit supporters desperate need for validation.


----------



## RobinBHM

Droogs said:


> I am open to begin tunnock smuggling operations if you feel there is a market


I'm in  

Nobody would've voted for Brexit if they knew it would make Tunnocks tea cakes more expensive.


----------



## jackal

The UK is using an 25 year old imports export system generate 4k error codes... Totally incompetent 25 year old computer


----------



## Peterm1000

MarkDennehy said:


> Sir, it appears you are posting this from the _"United Kingdom"_? This entity appears to comprise four separate yet not independent countries with a central government that isn't even in three of the countries...




Isn't that the comedy of the whole "I want to rule myself" argument? Where do you draw the line?


----------



## billw

Peterm1000 said:


> Isn't that the comedy of the whole "I want to rule myself" argument? Where do you draw the line?



Much the same with the Basques and Catalans. In fact pretty much all European nations were formed by amalgamation at some point, the anomalies are the remaining microstates such as San Marino, Andorra, and Liechtenstein. At least they are highly unlikely have any secessionist problems within them. Do people want to reverse the map back to the 16th century?


----------



## Fergie 307

Jake said:


> Le Pen has dropped that, having seen the balls up that Brexit is. Now all the talk is of reform.


Sorry but when someone has spent their whole political life raging against the EU, the Euro, NATO etc etc, I am not entirely convinced when they claim to have turned over a new leaf. It has undoubtedly worked though she got a third of the vote last time.


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> The narrative that "EU is about to collapse" is built from hunting down the small minority of Euro sceptic political parties in Europe.
> 
> "EU about to collapse" is just Brexit supporters desperate need for validation.


So the very embarrassing leak of briefing documents prepared for German ministers detailing those countries considered to be at risk of following the UK can just be dismissed as a bit inconvenient, jolly good, no need to lift ones head out of the sand yet.


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> I'm in
> 
> Nobody would've voted for Brexit if they knew it would make Tunnocks tea cakes more expensive.


A factor I hadn't considered in coming to my decision, pipper! Count me in for a couple of smuggled boxes.


----------



## Noel

Fergie 307 said:


> So the very embarrassing leak of briefing documents prepared for German ministers detailing those countries considered to be at risk of following the UK can just be dismissed as a bit inconvenient, jolly good, no need to lift ones head out of the sand yet.



Was this the Der Spiegel article?


----------



## Jacob

Fergie 307 said:


> ..... those countries considered to be at risk of following the UK .....


They might read things like this first:




__





Research: Moody's - New Brexit trade agreement confirms macroeconomic cost for UK of losing EU membership - Moody's






m.moodys.com




BTW can somebody remind me of the benefits of Brexit and how/when they will show up? I keep asking this but all I hear is a deathly hush! In fact it's very quiet out there. Too quiet - just the moaning of unemployed fisherman, HGV drivers, import/exporters, large and small.


----------



## Jonm

Fergie 307 said:


> So the very embarrassing leak of briefing documents prepared for German ministers detailing those countries considered to be at risk of following the UK can just be dismissed as a bit inconvenient, jolly good, no need to lift ones head out of the sand yet.


I cannot find this document. Are you able to post a link


----------



## Jonm

Jacob said:


> They might read things like this first:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Research: Moody's - New Brexit trade agreement confirms macroeconomic cost for UK of losing EU membership - Moody's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.moodys.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW can somebody remind me of the benefits of Brexit and how/when they will show up? I keep asking this but all I hear is a deathly hush! In fact it's very quiet out there. Too quiet - just the moaning of unemployed fisherman, HGV drivers, import/exporters, large and small.


The only one I can find is Nissan starting battery production in UK so it meets 55% rules of origin criteria.


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> Sorry but when someone has spent their whole political life raging against the EU, the Euro, NATO etc etc, I am not entirely convinced when they claim to have turned over a new leaf. It has undoubtedly worked though she got a third of the vote last time.


It's almost like when a group of individuals who have spent their whole political lives in opposition to publicly funded social services stand in front of a bus claiming they'd spend more money on the NHS


----------



## Fergie 307

sploo said:


> It's almost like when a group of individuals who have spent their whole political lives in opposition to publicly funded social services stand in front of a bus claiming they'd spend more money on the NHS


I wouldn't say almost like it, I'd say exactly the same.


----------



## Fergie 307

Noel said:


> Was this the Der Spiegel article?


Believe so. It was a German finance ministry strategy briefing document. Leaked to the German press. Details Netherlands, France Austia Poland etc, not necessarily in that order. Think they viewed Netherlands as most at risk. This was in 2017 I believe. Talks about extra funding burden on Germany following our departure, and potential consequences of any others.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

Remainers are happy to use negative news to reinforce their belief that Brexit was seriously flawed. Brexiteers will trivialise immediate negatives, and point to the glories yet to come (Nissan excepted they have little good news to point to right now).

The tension which leads the EU to centralise power and control is common to all political systems. It arises from a belief that:

the centre has greater talents at its disposal than local bodies
local bodies are less able or trusted to manage finances properly
central coordination is invariably more efficient and rational
nations should be managed for the benefit of the nation as a whole, not individual localities
The UK is not materially different with tensions between devolved nations, and at lower levels with county councils, unitary authorities, town councils etc.

It is easy to be attracted to the concept of more local control over local issues with central control over only those things which genuinely need centralisation - eg: defence, foreign affairs, currency etc.

Delegating powers more locally will expose different problems - eg:

Barnett formula which clearly shows that Scotland gets a higher than average benefit (what happens on independence)
That London and S.East subsidise less affluent parts of the country - paying more tax
What revenue raising powers are delegated - local sales taxes, income tax, etc will depend on local political leaning
There is no right answer but a range of opinions. But leaving the EU for the sake of "sovereignty" simply exposes fundamental issues in the way the UK is managed.


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> I wouldn't say almost like it, I'd say exactly the same.


Indeed. It worked though.



Fergie 307 said:


> Believe so. It was a German finance ministry strategy briefing document. Leaked to the German press. Details Netherlands, France Austia Poland etc, not necessarily in that order. Think they viewed Netherlands as most at risk. This was in 2017 I believe. Talks about extra funding burden on Germany following our departure, and potential consequences of any others.


I rather suspect that the very public hash the UK has made of leaving (not that any way of leaving wouldn't have caused some issues) will make the populations of other EU countries wary of voting to join us in our act of self-vandalism. At least for a few years anyway.


----------



## jcassidy

sploo said:


> I rather suspect that the very public hash the UK has made of leaving (not that any way of leaving wouldn't have caused some issues) will make the populations of other EU countries wary of voting to join us in our act of self-vandalism. At least for a few years anyway.



For a few years anyway. For example, Lega Nord in Italy is built around the idea of the heavy-industry-laden northern regions (Lombardy, Veneto, etc.) hiving off from the poorer south. Much like the SNP. They're very keen on a vote for ITALEXIT, if only as a precusor to a vote on NORDEXIT!

Never mind the fascist illeberal regimes in Poland and Hungary. Once the spigot of German cash stops flowing, they'll be having a think about what benefits they might get from being outside (next stop, Russia-client dictatorships)


----------



## billw

Terry - Somerset said:


> There is no right answer but a range of opinions. But leaving the EU for the sake of "sovereignty" simply exposes fundamental issues in the way the UK is managed.



You're way too clever to be posting here.


----------



## billw

jcassidy said:


> Never mind the fascist illeberal regimes in Poland and Hungary. Once the spigot of German cash stops flowing, they'll be having a think about what benefits they might get from being outside (next stop, Russia-client dictatorships)



We are driven by the west being "right" and the concept that it might not be is what will fracture the west.


----------



## Fergie 307

sploo said:


> Indeed. It worked though.
> 
> 
> I rather suspect that the very public hash the UK has made of leaving (not that any way of leaving wouldn't have caused some issues) will make the populations of other EU countries wary of voting to join us in our act of self-vandalism. At least for a few years anyway.


I sincerely hope our departure will be a wake-up call to abandon the whole federalist idea and take on reform, and a lighter touch approach. I really feel they have to do this If It is to survive. It will be interesting to see what happens when the full impact of the loss of our contributions kicks in, and exactly how they deal with it. I can see that leading to something of a bun fight. It would be a great shame to see it all go pear shaped as the concept is great. I'm sure Mr Putin will be all to happy to pick up the pieces in his part of the world, subject of course to bring "invited" in to help out!


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> So the very embarrassing leak of briefing documents prepared for German ministers detailing those countries considered to be at risk of following the UK can just be dismissed as a bit inconvenient, jolly good, no need to lift ones head out of the sand yet.



"considered to be at risk"
Is not the same as 
"Most likely to"

All you are talking about is some contingency planning


Perhaps you could tell me how many years Euro sceptics have been saying the EU is about to collapse imminently 

Shall we say 3 decades, or more.......


----------



## billw

Fergie 307 said:


> I'm sure Mr Putin will be all to happy to pick up the pieces in his part of the world, subject of course to bring "invited" in to help out!



Which is why the EU needs to be stronger. Putin wants to rebuild the USSR, and he'll be all too happy to see the EU crumble so he can reintegrate the eastern states from a failed union.

There are certainly some right-wing governments that would probably love to leave the EU. Weirdly, they're also the ones most beholden to Chinese economic influence.


----------



## RobinBHM

jcassidy said:


> For a few years anyway. For example, Lega Nord in Italy is built around the idea of the heavy-industry-laden northern regions (Lombardy, Veneto, etc.) hiving off from the poorer south. Much like the SNP. They're very keen on a vote for ITALEXIT, if only as a precusor to a vote on NORDEXIT!
> 
> Never mind the fascist illeberal regimes in Poland and Hungary. Once the spigot of German cash stops flowing, they'll be having a think about what benefits they might get from being outside (next stop, Russia-client dictatorships)


Ah ok.....so you are clearly an "EU is about to collapse" believer......you are seeking validation eh?......not surprising really, brexits not exactly going well

Public support for EU in both Hungary and Poland is very high.....not surprisingly EU membership has transformed these Eastern Bloc countries and the public there are very keen on freedom of movement.


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> I sincerely hope our departure will be a wake-up call to abandon the whole federalist idea and take on reform, and a lighter touch approach. I really feel they have to do this If It is to survive. It will be interesting to see what happens when the full impact of the loss of our contributions kicks in, and exactly how they deal with it. I can see that leading to something of a bun fight. It would be a great shame to see it all go pear shaped as the concept is great. I'm sure Mr Putin will be all to happy to pick up the pieces in his part of the world, subject of course to bring "invited" in to help out!



The EU has some major structural flaws....namely the Euro Zone and CAP as well as mission creep.
It's possible Brexit and Covid might be a catalyst for change. I know there has been talk of a 2 tier Europe.


----------



## Pallet Fancier

billw said:


> Well it makes them no less *true*.



Try this example: quoted in the UK press, the UK Health and Social Care Committee were questioning a civil servant about vaccine supplies. A Tory member asked the CS "what if the EU restrict the amount of vaccine coming to the UK?"

There was a pause. CS blinked. You could see him wondering several things, such as how the EU would get the authority to do that, why they would do that, what colour the flying pigs were, today, etc. 

Anyway, the CS eventually answered "Well, if they were to do that, then it would harm the UK's ability to vaccinate the population, but they are not doing that, so it won't."

UK Press printed the question and the "... it would harm the UK's ability to vaccinate" part of the answer, just like the Tory knew they would.

You cannot take ANYTHING at face value, any more. There is always some pipper with an agenda and an idea of how to invent a non-event and make it into a news story. Sounds like the same thing just happened in Germany.


----------



## John Brown

Jacob said:


> They might read things like this first:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Research: Moody's - New Brexit trade agreement confirms macroeconomic cost for UK of losing EU membership - Moody's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.moodys.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW can somebody remind me of the benefits of Brexit and how/when they will show up? I keep asking this but all I hear is a deathly hush! In fact it's very quiet out there. Too quiet - just the moaning of unemployed fisherman, HGV drivers, import/exporters, large and small.


Boris gets to be PM.
Jacob Rees Smug gets richer.
Happier fish.
Errrr... that's it.


----------



## ivan

No doubt a _skillfully manned_ small boat can survive alone on the economic sea. It would do better in a convoy. A larger vessel entirely is more likely to make better and faster progress, as there are more resources under command. As of now, the skills navigating our small boat are questionable. In the past, it was our choice to be either part of a convoy, or to join a larger vessel entirely; but _no one could force the issue_.

Users of the phrase "The EU wants..." are using an emotional link to suggest we were being somehow forced against our will by civil servants in Brussels. The EU can only do what the ministers of the members agree to. From the start all agreed to closer political union. That's where it's been going, and the members, not civil servants, will decide how close is close enough. There are bound to be differences of emphasis between members, which detractors sieze upon and promote as signs of breakup.

By the way, happy fish are happy 'cos we're still in the sea, 'cos if we're caught, no one can work out how to sell us...


----------



## sploo

John Brown said:


> Boris gets to be PM.
> Jacob Rees Smug gets richer.
> Happier fish.
> Errrr... that's it.


Ironically, I suspect Boris wasn't actually planning for Brexit; at the time the referendum was announced Cameron had said he was going, so there was clearly going to be a leadership contest. Throwing his hat in the Eurosceptic ring, and getting a narrow but respectable defeat in the referendum (as was widely expected) would have given him a lot of support within the party. Instead, he and Gove looked completely shell-shocked on the morning after the vote, and the next thing Boris did was to run away and leave others to clear up the mess.

The path that's lead us to Boris as PM has essentially been the opposite of survival of the fittest; a multi-year circus, until the clown was unsurprisingly the winner.


----------



## John Brown

sploo said:


> Ironically, I suspect Boris wasn't actually planning for Brexit; at the time the referendum was announced Cameron had said he was going, so there was clearly going to be a leadership contest. Throwing his hat in the Eurosceptic ring, and getting a narrow but respectable defeat in the referendum (as was widely expected) would have given him a lot of support within the party. Instead, he and Gove looked completely shell-shocked on the morning after the vote, and the next thing Boris did was to run away and leave others to clear up the mess.
> 
> The path that's lead us to Boris as PM has essentially been the opposite of survival of the fittest; a multi-year circus, until the clown was unsurprisingly the winner.


The story I heard was that up to a day or so before the referendum, Boris was still undecided about which way to jump, as he had no real opinions one way or the other, but was just looking to get the best political advantage.
Could be wrong, but has the ring of truth...That's why I don't feel that sorry for him, despite the dung-blizzard he ended up walking into.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

ivan said:


> . From the start all agreed to closer political union ...



And if our politicians had been honest enough to tell us that at the time of Maastrict we quite probably would have left then. Right from the Treaty of Rome they have insisted that was not the case.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> The path that's lead us to Boris as PM has essentially been the opposite of survival of the fittest; a multi-year circus, until the clown was unsurprisingly the winner.



Unsurprising hey ............. short memory.
There was a massive thread on here, part of it was how Jezza was going to do it this time around. It was a very surprising landslide.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

The UK is part of a global community. Leadership or influence of the global community generally increases the probability of favoured strategies being adopted.

The UK has swapped being a leading member of one of the top three economic powers with US and China, for a presence in their own capacity behind US, China, EU, Japan and India in GDP terms.

The other determinant of leadership is potential military muscle - US, China and Russia currently being dominant. This has changed little through Brexit.

The EU currently has no coherent defence policy, although UK position as the dominant NATO partner may come under some threat compared to the combined influence of the EU27.

In a purely objective assessment the UK will likely lose on the international stage. Whether the largely emotional benefits - eg: sovereighnty - are sufficient to compensate for the loss and hassle is a matter of opinion not fact.


----------



## doctor Bob

On this thread are when someone says "may or considered" some one jumps on it and say "it's not the same as will".
But this works for both ways of the arguement.
So unfortunately for the poster it's just a strawman or a whataboutery  or maybe even a bit conflagulated.....................
I'm starting to think someone has a bet on with his misses that he can average 10 or more "catchphrases" per page.
I get it by the way, someone will now say arrh but we know we told you etc, however just above is a post saying the UK may come under ..................... so I say scarecrow.
Anyway, I've said my flinkingnubbit (Bobby's new catchphase) for the moment.


----------



## sploo

John Brown said:


> The story I heard was that up to a day or so before the referendum, Boris was still undecided about which way to jump, as he had no real opinions one way or the other, but was just looking to get the best political advantage.
> Could be wrong, but has the ring of truth...That's why I don't feel that sorry for him, despite the dung-blizzard he ended up walking into.


That's Boris though: no political convictions, just whatever is good for me (though also with a history of poor decision making when he tried to get what was good for him).


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Unsurprising hey ............. short memory.
> There was a massive thread on here, part of it was how Jezza was going to do it this time around. It was a very surprising landslide.


I did say "Boris as PM", but I was more thinking of "Boris as leader of the Conservative Party".

He's certainly managed to fail upwards though. 

Was a Corbyn win ever seriously on the cards (polls or betting odds)? I thought (hoped) it might have just resulted in a hung parliament at best.


----------



## Rorschach

John Brown said:


> The story I heard was that up to a day or so before the referendum, Boris was still undecided about which way to jump



Do you mean the actual referendum or the announcing of it? He can't have been undecided that close to the actual referendum, he was going around on the vote leave battle bus for weeks before.


----------



## John Brown

Rorschach said:


> Do you mean the actual referendum or the announcing of it? He can't have been undecided that close to the actual referendum, he was going around on the vote leave battle bus for weeks before.


I stand corrected. Thanks.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> I did say "Boris as PM", but I was more thinking of "Boris as leader of the Conservative Party".
> 
> He's certainly managed to fail upwards though.
> 
> Was a Corbyn win ever seriously on the cards (polls or betting odds)? I thought (hoped) it might have just resulted in a hung parliament at best.



Flap flap 

Flinkingnubbit for now.


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> .....
> Was a Corbyn win ever seriously on the cards (polls or betting odds)? I thought (hoped) it might have just resulted in a hung parliament at best.


Came close in 2017. They turned up the pressure so that it wouldn't happen again. The pressure is still on and Labour is being divided and purged as we speak, with one of the weakest leaders ever.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Came close in 2017? They should have walked it, and would have with virtually anyone else in the Country leading them.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> Came close in 2017. They turned up the pressure so that it wouldn't happen again. The pressure is still on and Labour is being divided and purged as we speak, with one of the weakest leaders ever.



Some certainly thought he was going to win, banged on about it for months and months, then when he did absolute shiite, they found every excuse in the book. Hilarious and great entertainment, the best part is these doollaly, delusional nutters are still among us. They want Keir out and probably bring in some one like red len. They can't see the wood for the trees.

Purged ................... excellent load of bollloxs.
Flinkingnobbit


----------



## Rorschach

Phil Pascoe said:


> Came close in 2017? They should have walked it, and would have with virtually anyone else in the Country leading them.



Don't be silly, it was all a big conspiracy to keep Corbyn out of power, nothing to do with him (and his party) being unelectable. Soros and Gates did it, or was it Epstein (didn't kill himself)?


----------



## doctor Bob

Rorschach said:


> Don't be silly, it was all a big conspiracy to keep Corbyn out of power, nothing to do with him (and his party) being unelectable. Soros and Gates did it, or was it Epstein (didn't kill himself)?


I heard, the teletubbies were giving out false subliminal messages slurring Jezza's character.

For me it's the way Jacob tells em, it's a cracker


----------



## Fergie 307

ivan said:


> No doubt a _skillfully manned_ small boat can survive alone on the economic sea. It would do better in a convoy. A larger vessel entirely is more likely to make better and faster progress, as there are more resources under command. As of now, the skills navigating our small boat are questionable. In the past, it was our choice to be either part of a convoy, or to join a larger vessel entirely; but _no one could force the issue_.
> 
> Users of the phrase "The EU wants..." are using an emotional link to suggest we were being somehow forced against our will by civil servants in Brussels. The EU can only do what the ministers of the members agree to. From the start all agreed to closer political union. That's where it's been going, and the members, not civil servants, will decide how close is close enough. There are bound to be differences of emphasis between members, which detractors sieze upon and promote as signs of breakup.
> 
> By the way, happy fish are happy 'cos we're still in the sea, 'cos if we're caught, no one can work out how to sell us...eren't able to influence it, and so voted to leave.





ivan said:


> No doubt a _skillfully manned_ small boat can survive alone on the economic sea. It would do better in a convoy. A larger vessel entirely is more likely to make better and faster progress, as there are more resources under command. As of now, the skills navigating our small boat are questionable. In the past, it was our choice to be either part of a convoy, or to join a larger vessel entirely; but _no one could force the issue_.
> 
> Users of the phrase "The EU wants..." are using an emotional link to suggest we were being somehow forced against our will by civil servants in Brussels. The EU can only do what the ministers of the members agree to. From the start all agreed to closer political union. That's where it's been going, and the members, not civil servants, will decide how close is close enough. There are bound to be differences of emphasis between members, which detractors sieze upon and promote as signs of breakup.
> 
> By the way, happy fish are happy 'cos we're still in the sea, 'cos if we're caught, no one can work out how to sell us...


Personally I didn't like the direction of travel. Couldn't influence it in any way, much as I would have liked to, so voted to leave.


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> That's Boris though: no political convictions, just whatever is good for me (though also with a history of poor decision making when he tried to get what was good for him).



I think he expected to just the some grinning flag-waving leader of freedom from the EU with no work. He got lumped with the pandemic and it highlighted his absolute ineptitude. He's not a leader whatsoever, inspires about as much confidence as a 737 Max on autopilot, and his career is probably going the same way.


----------



## sploo

Phil Pascoe said:


> Came close in 2017? They should have walked it, and would have with virtually anyone else in the Country leading them.


Indeed. Indeed.

Just think how much fuss we could have saved if Miliband could eat a bacon sandwich


----------



## sploo

billw said:


> inspires about as much confidence as a 737 Max on autopilot


That's extremely offensive. I mean, at least the 737 would kill you quickly


----------



## jcassidy

RobinBHM said:


> Ah ok.....so you are clearly an "EU is about to collapse" believer......you are seeking validation eh?......not surprising really, brexits not exactly going well



Er, no. Exact opposite, actually. I honestly think Britain is going to be f**ked so badly by BREXIT that it will serve as a warning to all the other *Exiters, but I don't want to spark a war on here because there is a significant number of members who think the exact opposite.



> Public support for EU in both Hungary and Poland is very high.....not surprisingly EU membership has transformed these Eastern Bloc countries and the public there are very keen on freedom of movement.



What you actually mean is, public support for the EU cash cow is very high, and public support for _outwards _freedom of movement is very high, but public support for some fundamental principles such as respect for the rule of law and universal human rights, nah not so much.


----------



## Lefley

doctor Bob said:


> Flap flap
> 
> Flinkingnubbit for now.


Bob you have actual come up with a word that can not be googled. At least for now!


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> Ah ok.....so you are clearly an "EU is about to collapse" believer......you are seeking validation eh?......not surprising really, brexits not exactly going well
> 
> Public support for EU in both Hungary and Poland is very high.....not surprisingly EU membership has transformed these Eastern Bloc countries and the public there are very keen on freedom of movement.


Might be more interesting to ask the average German how they feel about paying for their neighbours new found prosperity, particularly following our departure when they and other net contributors will be paying considerably more.


----------



## Fergie 307

ivan said:


> No doubt a _skillfully manned_ small boat can survive alone on the economic sea. It would do better in a convoy. A larger vessel entirely is more likely to make better and faster progress, as there are more resources under command. As of now, the skills navigating our small boat are questionable. In the past, it was our choice to be either part of a convoy, or to join a larger vessel entirely; but _no one could force the issue_.
> 
> Users of the phrase "The EU wants..." are using an emotional link to suggest we were being somehow forced against our will by civil servants in Brussels. The EU can only do what the ministers of the members agree to. From the start all agreed to closer political union. That's where it's been going, and the members, not civil servants, will decide how close is close enough. There are bound to be differences of emphasis between members, which detractors sieze upon and promote as signs of breakup.
> 
> By the way, happy fish are happy 'cos we're still in the sea, 'cos if we're caught, no one can work out how to sell us...


A good analogy. The problem with the big ship idea is that the bigger the shop the less agile it becomes, taking an age to turn and about 5 miles to stop. Very bad at responding quickly to any situation. Look at the howling balls up that has been made of the whole immigration issue as an example.


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> Might be more interesting to ask the average German how they feel about paying for their neighbours new found prosperity, particularly following our departure when they and other net contributors will be paying considerably more.


It is interesting how you think rich countries helping out poorer countries as a bad idea.


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> A good analogy. The problem with the big ship idea is that the bigger the shop the less agile it becomes, taking an age to turn and about 5 miles to stop. Very bad at responding quickly to any situation. Look at the howling balls up that has been made of the whole immigration issue as an example.



There is a huge trade leverage advantage being part of a large trade bloc.

The UKs most important trade markets are: EU, USA, China......UK us now a minnow.

The UK is now weak, it has the highest trade barriers now of any advanced economy.



How exactly have the EU made a mess of immigration?


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> It is interesting how you think rich countries helping out poorer countries as a bad idea.


Strawman, diversion.


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> Personally I didn't like the direction of travel. Couldn't influence it in any way, much as I would have liked to, so voted to leave.


The EU has serious failings and I would agree, I don't like the direction of travel either.

Although I don't like the direction of travel of the UK and I'm not sure how UK citizens have any real influence.

What influences policy in this country is the billionaire party donors, right wing libertarian groups etc not the public.

I never voted for Matthew Elliott, top govt advisor who is very closely connected to the Koch foundation....a group that is financed by fossil fuel interests and pushes for deregulation.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> Strawman, diversion.



Yeah, good effort, no cigar  

You've put my comment as though it's in response to a different post to the one I replied to.

You can do better than that!

Have a good day at work


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> Yeah, good effort, no cigar
> 
> You've put my comment as though it's in response to a different post to the one I replied to.
> 
> You can do better than that!
> 
> Have a good day at work


Your right, don't know how that happened. I've ammended it.
Still a strawman.

Will do, very good at present.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

RobinBHM said:


> I never voted for Matthew Elliott, top govt advisor who is very closely connected to the Koch foundation....a group that is financed by fossil fuel interests and pushes for deregulation.



You never once voted for the upper echelons of the EU either. That didn't seem to bother you.


----------



## sploo

Phil Pascoe said:


> You never once voted for the upper echelons of the EU either. That didn't seem to bother you.


I assume that was the point Robin was making; one of the frequent criticisms of the EU is that "we" don't vote specific people into specific positions - but our system of rule is basically the same. I.e. the argument is a bit moot (being ruled by "our lot" is really no better than "their lot").


----------



## jcassidy

billw said:


> We are driven by the west being "right" and the concept that it might not be is what will fracture the west.



Which bit of 'Western' culture isn't 'right'? The bit about some level of freedom of speech? A fair amount of respect for the rule of law? A general respect for human rights? An expectation of good public governance? Those are the things that bind the 'West' together.

The mistake people the 'West' (that is, nations with a democratic system of government, separation of powers, educated, and progressive) make is thinking that everyone else shares the same values. Its becoming increasingly clear that a significant portion of Eastern European nations don't.


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> Might be more interesting to ask the average German how they feel about paying for their neighbours new found prosperity, particularly following our departure when they and other net contributors will be paying considerably more.


Depends what you mean by the average German. Being married to one (and having lots of German family) I can tell you clearly what they'd feel.

At least among that extended circle of family and friends (mostly originating from East and West Berlin) there's a very real memory of the division of the city and a desire for unity rather than isolation.

But are they "average". Probably no more average than just about everyone I knew in the UK that thought Brexit was an insanity.


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> Personally I didn't like the direction of travel. Couldn't influence it in any way, much as I would have liked to, so voted to leave.


And then we sank.

(I'm joking. I hope)

EDIT: Maybe I should have said instead, "and then you handed the helm to Dominic Raab; who didn't realise we were surrounded by water - how's that going to work out?"



Fergie 307 said:


> A good analogy. The problem with the big ship idea is that the bigger the shop the less agile it becomes, taking an age to turn and about 5 miles to stop. Very bad at responding quickly to any situation. Look at the howling balls up that has been made of the whole immigration issue as an example.


Ignoring the final sentence (because that really could do with some references and/or evidence) do you want your government to be able to make rapid changes, or just plod along and keep things running? Personally I'd rather politicians were pretty hamstrung, and could do little more than keeping the light bulbs in the streetlamps lit. When they get free reign to be "agile" it means they screw things up every few years (each time a new set of under qualified morons take charge), and make sweeping changes to education, health, rights, and economics; usually based only on their own personal convictions, and that idea they had whilst they were being b*ggered by one of the bigger boys in the toilets at Eton.



jcassidy said:


> What you actually mean is, public support for the EU cash cow is very high, and public support for _outwards _freedom of movement is very high, but public support for some fundamental principles such as respect for the rule of law and universal human rights, nah not so much.


Some years ago I saw a great poll of UKIP supporters; who (unsurprisingly) were strongly against immigration to the UK. They were also quite strongly supportive of the right for Brits to live as ex-pats in Spain. Irony clearly being the thing you use to flatten your shirtony.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

sploo said:


> But are they "average". Probably no more average than just about everyone I knew in the UK that thought Brexit was an insanity.



We obviously live in very different places - I only spoke to a few people who thought remaining was sensible.


----------



## sploo

Phil Pascoe said:


> We obviously live in very different places - I only spoke to a few people who thought remaining was sensible.


That's the problem - we all live in our own little bubbles (which tend to echo our own views). I know these threads tend to stir things up somewhat but I value them because it means we're exposed to opposing opinions (which is healthy).


----------



## Rorschach

Phil Pascoe said:


> We obviously live in very different places - I only spoke to a few people who thought remaining was sensible.



I've heard it said by London types that when the referendum results was announced they were so shocked because they had never met a person who wanted to vote leave and thought they only existed on TV, Farage and the like.

My own personal experience is that I know a few people who voted remain, a few who voted leave, some were very passionate on each side, some were much less fussed like myself. The majority of people I know/met though, didn't seem to care either way and didn't bother voting, and still today they don't really care either way.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

It doesn't surprise me that London voted remain - it has millions of first, second and third generation immigrants, so any mention of being anti immigration and they vote the opposite way. A huge number of influential people in London have jobs that are/were connected to if not dependent upon the EU, which must have skewed it as well.


----------



## billw

jcassidy said:


> Which bit of 'Western' culture isn't 'right'? The bit about some level of freedom of speech? A fair amount of respect for the rule of law? A general respect for human rights? An expectation of good public governance? Those are the things that bind the 'West' together.
> 
> The mistake people the 'West' (that is, nations with a democratic system of government, separation of powers, educated, and progressive) make is thinking that everyone else shares the same values. Its becoming increasingly clear that a significant portion of Eastern European nations don't.



Well those things are certainly what the West believes in, but that's not to say everyone does and to them our views are wrong. We're, as individuals, prone to believing our own system is the right one and others must be wrong, and my point was that we're not in a position to judge.

As for Eastern Europe, well it's a fair portion of the world that doesn't really share the same opinions, whether in whole or part. It's obviously the Chinese model that's most unpalatable to us right now, and they're being framed as a threat to us.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> I've heard it said by London types that when the referendum results was announced they were so shocked because they had never met a person who wanted to vote leave and thought they only existed on TV, Farage and the like.
> 
> My own personal experience is that I know a few people who voted remain, a few who voted leave, some were very passionate on each side, some were much less fussed like myself. The majority of people I know/met though, didn't seem to care either way and didn't bother voting, and still today they don't really care either way.


It's likely true that the majority don't really care that much either way; except perhaps when they get a nasty surprise due to unexpected import charges on an item that's come from the EU - but in time those charges will be clear (so people will just accept the new price they see).

But that in itself is a problem; if you look at some of the votes in the House of Commons in recent weeks we've had protections against changes to workers' rights and the NHS removed. The government assures us that they don't plan to actually change anything (though they've already backtracked that one with proposed changes to the working time directive).

Like boiling a frog slowly, people won't notice as the NHS is further privatised, and their rights are further eroded by those who will make a tidy sum from exploiting us plebs. At least, until it's too late anyway.


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> It's likely true that the majority don't really care that much either way; except perhaps when they get a nasty surprise due to unexpected import charges on an item that's come from the EU - but in time those charges will be clear (so people will just accept the new price they see).
> 
> But that in itself is a problem; if you look at some of the votes in the House of Commons in recent weeks we've had protections against changes to workers' rights and the NHS removed. The government assures us that they don't plan to actually change anything (though they've already backtracked that one with proposed changes to the working time directive).
> 
> Like boiling a frog slowly, people won't notice as the NHS is further privatised, and their rights are further eroded by those who will make a tidy sum from exploiting us plebs. At least, until it's too late anyway.



You assume though that everyone is against changes? What's wrong with change, it isn't always for the worse.

Speaking personally (though I know I am not alone), I think the NHS/PHE is a shambles and not fit for purpose. We pay too much money for a sub-par service that is revered like a religion in this country despite very poor outcomes in many diseases. It has too many bureaucrats and is too centralised making it clunky and slow to act as we have seen to our cost in the last year. Scare stories about privatisation prevent us from having the proper conversations needed to reform the NHS.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

A point made some long while ago in the Press - it's very often the people who treat the NHS as sacrosact that prevent its improvement. Funny how there isn't one other Country that's copied it, glad as I am we have it.


----------



## Jacob

Phil Pascoe said:


> You never once voted for the upper echelons of the EU either. That didn't seem to bother you.


You may not have voted Phil but many of us did; we had "M.E.P.s" until recently.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> You may not have voted Phil but many of us did; we had "M.E.P.s" until recently.



You might like to look into what powers MEP's have.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> You might like to look into what powers MEP's have.


Yes I think you should.
On another note: How Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal is proving a nightmare for UK businesses


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Yes I think you should.
> On another note: How Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal is proving a nightmare for UK businesses



That response sums up your entire argument perfectly.


----------



## Jacob

".....Things have reached such a pass that Nissan’s announcement last week that the future of its Sunderland plant was secure was hailed as very good news – pre-Brexit, its future was never in doubt. And on Sunday came the revelation that the government’s own trade advisers are telling struggling businesses to set up separate companies inside the EU to circumvent the new barriers....."
All madness really. Not as mad as 74 million votes for Trump but with far worse and longer term consequences for the UK than orange man ever was for the USA


----------



## Jacob

Phil Pascoe said:


> It doesn't surprise me that London voted remain - it has millions of first, second and third generation immigrants, so any mention of being anti immigration and they vote the opposite way. A huge number of influential people in London have jobs that are/were connected to if not dependent upon the EU, which must have skewed it as well.



Scotland and NI voted remain too. Wales was close and would do now with hindsight. Those immigrants get everywhere!
On another note- interesting that Britain's "special relationship" with USA is shifting from London to Dublin. Not surprising but a long time coming, considering Cromwell's part in the formation of the USA.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Rorschach said:


> I've heard it said by London types that when the referendum results was announced they were so shocked because they had never met a person who wanted to vote leave and thought they only existed on TV, Farage and the like.


I'm intrigued ... "London types"?


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Jacob said:


> You may not have voted Phil but many of us did; we had "M.E.P.s" until recently.


Who aren't the upper echelons - they're there to rubber stamp.


----------



## Rorschach

Blackswanwood said:


> I'm intrigued ... "London types"?
> 
> View attachment 101915



That's them! Going around talking about apples and pears.


----------



## Peterm1000

Rorschach said:


> You assume though that everyone is against changes? What's wrong with change, it isn't always for the worse.
> 
> Speaking personally (though I know I am not alone), I think the NHS/PHE is a shambles and not fit for purpose. We pay too much money for a sub-par service that is revered like a religion in this country despite very poor outcomes in many diseases. It has too many bureaucrats and is too centralised making it clunky and slow to act as we have seen to our cost in the last year. Scare stories about privatisation prevent us from having the proper conversations needed to reform the NHS.



The UK spends substantially less on health than all other G7 members except 1. However, the percentage of that spend that is publicly funded (i.e. the NHS) is one of the highest in the world. In other words, to have a truly great health service, we need to pay more. But other countries have individuals pay that rather than the state. So - either raise taxes, have people buy private healthcare insurance or stop complaining about the service we get.

I am sure there are efficiencies that can be made, but I doubt they add up to more than 10% and to get a top quality health service will need more than 10%.


----------



## Rorschach

Peterm1000 said:


> The UK spends substantially less on health than all other G7 members except 1. However, the percentage of that spend that is publicly funded (i.e. the NHS) is one of the highest in the world. In other words, to have a truly great health service, we need to pay more. But other countries have individuals pay that rather than the state. So - either raise taxes, have people buy private healthcare insurance or stop complaining about the service we get.
> 
> I am sure there are efficiencies that can be made, but I doubt they add up to more than 10% and to get a top quality health service will need more than 10%.



I wasn't talking about our spend as a figure/% I was talking about how we spend too much for the service we get, i.e it is very poor value for the taxpayer.

I have no problem paying more tax if the service we get reflected what was put into it. As Phil rightly pointed out, if the NHS was so great why are we the only country in the world to use this system and clearly it isn't the best as the results show.


----------



## Jacob

Phil Pascoe said:


> Who aren't the upper echelons - they're there to rubber stamp.





https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/CIT5.-Dem.pdf


----------



## Phil Pascoe

"Thirdly, the European Commission is an entirely appointed institution, not democratically elected, and it has the monopoly of proposing laws ..."

Yes, I know how it works - that's why I voted to get the hell out of it.


----------



## Jacob

Phil Pascoe said:


> "Thirdly, the European Commission is an entirely appointed institution, not democratically elected, and it has the monopoly of proposing laws ..."
> 
> Yes, I know how it works - that's why I voted to get the hell out of it.


If that really was the issue for brexiters (it wasn't) then it should have been item one of the brexit negotiations (it wasn't) and the process of improving EU democracy could have been pushed forwards.
In fact I doubt one in a thousand brexiters even noticed details like this in the first place, so well spotted Phil!
Hope you are happy with the way things are panning out. Presumably Cornish fishing is really flourishing now?








Cornish MPs challenge own government over Brexit fishing 'threat'


Secretary of State and Camborne and Redruth MP George Eustice faced questions from Cornish MPs Steve Double and Sheryll Murray over concerns raised by fishing businesses in their constituencies




www.cornwalllive.com


----------



## Jacob

One big issue with brexit is yet to come; that is how brexit voters are going to face the fact that it was all a dreadful mistake. 
Many are saying it already. 
Johnson and co will blame all and sundry for the failings. 
Just have to hope the disappointed don't get too angry and take to the streets.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Fishermen were always going to get sold out - they've been used to it since the liar Heath.


----------



## MarkDennehy

I'm not sure I understand the level of distaste at EU officials being appointed when it's the UK government that appoints them...
I mean, I get the disconnect between voting for your local representative and your local representative apointing an EU official, but you have the same disconnect between your vote in a general election and who the PM is - you don't get a vote in the latter at all, the winning party in the Commons decides that. It's the same level of disconnection between the ballot box and the office whether you're talking about the EU commissioners or the PM/Chancellor/Ministers in the UK government (or the Taoiseach/Tánaiste/Ministers in the Irish government).

(I'm not defending that disconnect, btw, I think it's a bad thing; but I don't see how the EU is _worse_ than local government by the metric of disconnection)


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> One big issue with brexit is yet to come; that is how brexit voters are going to face the fact that it was all a dreadful mistake.
> Many are saying it already.
> Johnson and co will blame all and sundry for the failings.
> Just have to hope the disappointed don't get too angry and take to the streets.



Have you been on the sauce again.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

There is more than just the UK model of how democracy works: 

first past the post is not the only democratically fair way of electing political leaders - it has strengths and weaknesses
holding ministers accountable for all that happens within their department is, bluntly, daft. They are a figurehead; the knowledge, experience, implementation etc sits with the civil service
The EU places more power in the hands of permanent (generally very able) unelected officials, and makes elected politicians responsible for strategy, direction, budgets. This has much to commend it. MEPs are sometimes deficient in holding the commission properly to account.

From what I saw the EU managed the Brexit negotiations far, far better than the UK. The members agreed strategy and negotiating stance with one focal point (Barnier). Any individual national interests were resolved largely below the radar.

Contrast that with the UK - political sniping, court cases, proroguing parliament, changes of leadership and negotiating team etc etc. A complete shambles whatever the outcome preferred.

This is not to suggest the UK should move to an EU style of democratic process - but in this case it was abundantly more effective.


----------



## selectortone

Terry - Somerset said:


> The EU places more power in the hands of permanent (generally very able) unelected officials, and makes elected politicians responsible for strategy, direction, budgets. This has much to commend it. MEPs are sometimes deficient in holding the commission properly to account.


Well, if we are to believe TV series like "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister", and more recently "The Thick Of It", our government is run along similar lines, with most of the real power wielded by (unelected) Permanant Secretaries and their many minions.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> You assume though that everyone is against changes? What's wrong with change, it isn't always for the worse.
> 
> Speaking personally (though I know I am not alone), I think the NHS/PHE is a shambles and not fit for purpose. We pay too much money for a sub-par service that is revered like a religion in this country despite very poor outcomes in many diseases. It has too many bureaucrats and is too centralised making it clunky and slow to act as we have seen to our cost in the last year. Scare stories about privatisation prevent us from having the proper conversations needed to reform the NHS.


It depends on the change. Certainly the NHS is a large inefficient organisation, but the main current problems are a decade of underfunding.

My other half is an NHS doctor, who's also worked in both German and US hospitals. Believe me, you don't want a privatised commercial system like the US.

Ironically, as she (the "boss") points out; in the UK system you have a central NHS contract, so you don't really have much power (as a doctor) to say "screw you, I'm going to a different hospital for a better deal". A privatised system of hospitals (like in the US), each with their own contracts, would potentially be a good thing for doctors; hospitals would have to compete on benefits, salaries, working conditions, and equipment. Certainly she believes she'd be paid much more in that system.

However, she absolutely does not want that to happen - because the burden of financing then falls on the patient. Hospitals will compete to perform profitable procedures, and actively avoid the "pointless" stuff (such as looking after someone as they're dying of cancer). You also end up with the population either having to pay for medical insurance (significantly more expensive than their outlay under the current UK system), or face having no cover and being bankrupt as a result of illness.

However, if you are wealthy, and especially if you are wealthy and in a position to benefit from selling off a publicly funded NHS, then such privatisation is very attractive. That's far more likely to be the end game for those on the right wing of the economic spectrum (such as the current Tory government). The idea that those individuals would seek to "reform" the NHS to make it better for "the people" is fanciful, and at odds with their long term program of defunding it.

So - you're absolutely right; change isn't always for the worse. However, the kind of change (for the NHS, rights of UK workers, food standards) that we're likely to see in our current political situation will almost certainly be very much for the worse for the common plebs like us.


----------



## selectortone

Here's my experience of NHS vs Private Healthcare:

When my late wife was first diagnosed with cancer it was in an NHS hospital. She received initial treatment via the NHS until I cleared it with the private health insurer I had with the company I worked for. Once I got the OK, her treatment was transferred to the much smaller private hospital on the other side ot the road (Poole General vs The Harbour Hospital for those who are interested). I was a little surprised to find that the oncologist and surgeon who looked after her were the same two doctors she had had at the NHS hospital. While she was undergoing chemotherapy I could see them scuttling across the road between the two hospitals. While chatting to one of the nurses one day she told me that all the physicians worked for both. And when it came to radiotherapy, or use of any other large equipment like MRI scanners, they wheeled my wife over to the NHS hospital to use their machines.

Now, I loved my wife dearly (still do) and I wasn't about to question these practices, but it was always in the back of my mind that we were, effectively, jumping the queue for these machines. In the end she died anyway after a long and painful time, in 2005, so it's moot.

She had a private room at the Harbour Hospital, her own TV and phone, posh menu, ensuite toilet. But when it boiled down to it she received exactly the same treatment, by the same physicians, as she would have done under the NHS, just more luxuriously.

That's experience No 1, here's experience No2:

A couple of years ago my daughter, who was staying with me at the time, had a minor operation that involved a general anaesthetic. She has private healthcare through her company and the op was carried out at another local private hospital. Very nice.. private room, shower in the loo, choice of lunch.... all very posh.

Brought her home at 5pm. Throughout the evening she was a bit breathless and in the morning she was like a severe asthmatic, couldn't catch her breath at all. I called the private hospital and they told me to take her to Bournemouth General, the closest A&E. (I thought... WTF??? but did as I was told)

You read all these stories about 3 hour waits in A&E, well, they take problems with anaesthesia very seriously. We were there 5 minutes when the triage nurse called her. Got a summary of her symptoms and she was being wheeled to the Major unit two minutes later. The Major unit is for "serious injuries and illnesses". She was seen immediately by an intern, then a doctor, then a consultant. A pulmonary embolism (blood clot in the lungs) was initially suspected but quickly ruled out by a blood test (done and results returned within 15 minutes) and a chest X-ray indicated pulmonary oedema (fluid on the lungs) - probably caused by a bad reaction to anaesthetic administered at the private hospital. She was then transferred to the AMU (Acute Medical Unit) for observation. Happily, her breathing got back to normal over night and she was discharged the next day.

I had nothing but admiration for NHS workers even before covis. It's off the scale now.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> One big issue with brexit is yet to come; that is how brexit voters are going to face the fact that it was all a dreadful mistake.
> Many are saying it already.
> Johnson and co will blame all and sundry for the failings.
> Just have to hope the disappointed don't get too angry and take to the streets.



You wanna get yourself down to Radio Rentals, your record is still broken.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Terry - Somerset said:


> The EU places more power in the hands of permanent (generally very able) unelected officials, and makes elected politicians responsible for strategy, direction, budgets.


That surely is contradictory.


----------



## doctor Bob

Rorschach said:


> You wanna get yourself down to Radio Rentals, your record is still broken.



when the socialist revolution happens matey you'll be the first up against the wall. Jacob with his wellies and bobble hat on, with pitchfork in hand,


----------



## Phil Pascoe

selectortone said:


> ... She had a private room at the Harbour Hospital, her own TV and phone, posh menu, ensuite toilet. But when it boiled down to it she received exactly the same treatment, by the same physicians, as she would have done under the NHS, just more luxuriously ...



My mother asked her consultant what the difference would be - the treatment's exactly the same, done by the same people - but you'll have a nicer room afterwards.


----------



## Jacob

Phil Pascoe said:


> My mother asked her consultant what the difference would be - the treatment's exactly the same, done by the same people - but you'll have a nicer room afterwards.


And when it's a bit more advanced she would have the option of paying for the nicer room ahead of the queues, or waiting longer getting a less nice one cheaper.


----------



## Jacob

Phil Pascoe said:


> Fishermen were always going to get sold out - they've been used to it since the liar Heath.


Thats OK then if they knew what they were voting for.


----------



## Richard_C

Responding to a few things here.

What would the Germans think about supporting poorer nations? When the wall came down - 1989 - Germany introduced a reunification tax, I think it was about 2% on tax rates for 10 years, with wide public support because people could see the moral and economic argument for investing. All of the former Eastern Bloc countries have had EU support and increasingly are growing their economies. The Polish workers who went to other EU countries 10 years ago can now stay at home and enjoy a reasonable standard of living. Migration control is being achieved not by blocking migration but by making it unnecessary. Its a long term project, its working.

European democracy does work. To get things done you need agreement from 3 bodies, the Commission who make it happen, the Parliament who approve and/or make the laws (and sometimes surprise the Commission) and the Council which has representatives of every members state. We elect the MEP s and indirectly elect our Government which sends representatives to Council. It is big and sometimes cumbersome and needs consensus to work, which tends to weed out madness. I vote for an MP, I don't vote for a Prime Minister or any other Minister. I find it hard to see a Democratic deficit in the EU. I am 1/250th of the electorate for my Parish Council, they might be interested in what I think, then up through the layers to District and County Council, Parliament and finally 500 million EU voters, at leach step my views count less and I'm less likely to get what I want but it is still democratic. Democracy, the worst system we have until you look at all the others.

Yes there was and still is a level of corruption in the EU. Remember T Dan Smith and Poulson? Jonathan Aitken? It's everywhere, a good organisation recognises it and deals with it one bite at time knowing that it is ever present. Its not a reason to leave an organisation. 

Now to 'mission creep' of the EU. If you want real open borders and a single market you have to have rules on consumer protection, safety standards, origin and so on or you open up to cheap unprincipled manufacturers. Then you have to think about other rules, like not making products in government run labour camps housing political prisoners, or giving your citizens the right to access a common legal system for commercial disputes (ECJ) or the ECHR to enforce their personal rights. So yes, you get more and more common rules. I bet though that the disabled children chained in filthy conditions in Ceaucescus Romania aren't complaining about EU interference, and I believe the EU has a moral duty to all of its citizens. It has quietly achieved more in the last 25 years than the UK alone ever could. Negotiators complained of the EU being 'idealistic' - of course it was, the EU is based on ideology, one that we helped form. Without ideology its just a great big supermarket.

Anyway, back to practicalities. If you want to buy anything from the EU and be sure what customs duty will be applied, you can look here for help on the relevant codes:

www.gov.uk/guidance/finding-commodity-codes-for-imports-or-exports

As this is a UK Workshop forum, have a look at wood: Here's a tiny extract

_Roughly trimmed wood which is used for making walking-sticks, umbrellas, tool handles and similar products is not classified under heading code 4403. Instead it’s classified under heading code 4404_

Don't confuse that with 4403 which includes among many other things wood to make smoking pipes. I guess if you want to make your walking stick and a pipe out of the same piece you need a mixed consignment declaration


And here for the duty for that code:

www.gov.uk/trade-tariff

Which handily for this is just the 20% VAT. As is most wood from the EU, but you still have to find the code and declare it.

Easy, don't forget to add on the carrier's handling charge.


Grrrrrr


----------



## Richard_C

Jacob said:


> And when it's a bit more advanced she would have the option of paying for the nicer room ahead of the queues, or waiting longer getting a less nice one cheaper.



And soon after be asked to show a credit card before the Ambulance will pick you up after you break your leg in the street.


----------



## Nigel Burden

doctor Bob said:


> when the socialist revolution happens matey you'll be the first up against the wall. Jacob with his wellies and bobble hat on, with pitchfork in hand,



So Jacob is just an alias? He's really Citizen Smith.


----------



## Jacob

Nigel Burden said:


> So Jacob is just an alias? He's really Citizen Smith.


Close. Actually I am Spartacus (but don't tell anybody yet or they'll all want to be Spartacus)


----------



## doctor Bob

Nigel Burden said:


> So Jacob is just an alias? He's really Citizen Smith.



Just a guess, he is a man of many guises.


----------



## Jacob

Would you buy a fitted kitchen from this chap?


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Jacob said:


> Thats OK then if they knew what they were voting for.


Out of the fire, back into the frying pan.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Richard_C said:


> Without ideology its just a great big supermarket.



Which is what the UK voted to stay in, and if it were we would undoubtedly have voted to stay in it. The referendum should have been held before Maastricht. We know why it wasn't, of course - the government would have had to have given out truthful information and thus knew a referendum would have come up with the wrong answer.


----------



## sploo

selectortone said:


> Here's my experience of NHS vs Private Healthcare:...


Very sorry to hear of the loss of your wife.

Your experiences are pretty much spot on as examples of the NHS.

Consultants are permitted to do a degree of private work, but the private hospitals (at least in the UK) don't tend to deal with really serious surgeries (or hold much in the way of the really expensive kit such as MRI scanners). Obviously that'll be different in countries where private healthcare is the norm.

Your daughter's experience rings true too; private (at least in the UK) is great... until something goes seriously wrong... at which point you'll be pointed at an NHS hospital. Unsurprisingly, NHS hospitals take a pretty dim view of getting a patient who needs treatment because of a problem in a private hospital, but it does happen.


----------



## sploo

Richard_C said:


> And soon after be asked to show a credit card before the Ambulance will pick you up after you break your leg in the street.


Based on my wife's experience of working as a doctor in the US, that is chillingly closer to the truth than many in the UK would probably imagine.


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> Very sorry to hear of the loss of your wife.
> 
> Your experiences are pretty much spot on as examples of the NHS.
> 
> Consultants are permitted to do a degree of private work, but the private hospitals (at least in the UK) don't tend to deal with really serious surgeries (or hold much in the way of the really expensive kit such as MRI scanners). Obviously that'll be different in countries where private healthcare is the norm.
> 
> Your daughter's experience rings true too; private (at least in the UK) is great... until something goes seriously wrong... at which point you'll be pointed at an NHS hospital. Unsurprisingly, NHS hospitals take a pretty dim view of getting a patient who needs treatment because of a problem in a private hospital, but it does happen.


Private hosps have to cherry pick because they are usually small. My recent cataract op was via NHS but at a private hosp which also does a number of other routines such as hip replacements. Nothing wrong with specialising of course but the NHS gets left with the pricier stuff. A bit like private schools which often don't have the facilities and send their kids off to state schools with 6th forms


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> It is interesting how you think rich countries helping out poorer countries as a bad idea.


I think you will find I did not say, or even suggest any such thing, not do I think it. I merely suggest, based on what I have been told by German friends, that there is a perception amongst many Germans that they are being expected to shoulder an unfairly large part of the cost of helping out their poorer neighbours. Most saw 're unification of Germany as an absolute duty, and were more than willing to pay for it. This was a completely issue that had nothing to do with the EU.


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> The EU has serious failings and I would agree, I don't like the direction of travel either.
> 
> Although I don't like the direction of travel of the UK and I'm not sure how UK citizens have any real influence.
> 
> What influences policy in this country is the billionaire party donors, right wing libertarian groups etc not the public.
> 
> I never voted for Matthew Elliott, top govt advisor who is very closely connected to the Koch foundation....a group that is financed by fossil fuel interests and pushes for deregulation.


Kind of my argument really. If anyone is unhappy over the degree of representation they have here in the UK, then why would they want to be ruled by an EU president, who will necessarily be even more remote, and over whom they will have even less influence. I just don't get it.


----------



## Jake

Fergie 307 said:


> Sorry but when someone has spent their whole political life raging against the EU, the Euro, NATO etc etc, I am not entirely convinced when they claim to have turned over a new leaf. It has undoubtedly worked though she got a third of the vote last time.



She can believe what she wants internally, the point is she knows it is now a barren political furrow contrary to what you were saying (but you now appear to agree).


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> There is a huge trade leverage advantage being part of a large trade bloc.
> 
> The UKs most important trade markets are: EU, USA, China......UK us now a minnow.
> 
> The UK is now weak, it has the highest trade barriers now of any advanced economy.
> 
> 
> 
> How exactly have the EU made a mess of immigration?


For exactly the same reason they are now along a mess of Covid vaccination. The machine has become so big and clunky that it is used to taking years to come to any important decision. It simply can't deal with things that need to be done quickly. The original immigration/asylum rule was that a person had to make their application in the first EU country they came to. Ordinarily very sensible. When the current crisis developed the Greeks and Italians quite reasonably pointed out that in the circumstances this was completely unworkable. Have the EU been able to resolve this effectively, no. Not I am sure because of any lack of feeling for those involved, but because he way they make decisions and policies simply isn't able to cope at the speed required. So you still have thousands living in squalid camps, and the system for processing them in chaos.


----------



## Fergie 307

sploo said:


> And then we sank.
> 
> (I'm joking. I hope)
> 
> EDIT: Maybe I should have said instead, "and then you handed the helm to Dominic Raab; who didn't realise we were surrounded by water - how's that going to work out?"
> 
> 
> Ignoring the final sentence (because that really could do with some references and/or evidence) do you want your government to be able to make rapid changes, or just plod along and keep things running? Personally I'd rather politicians were pretty hamstrung, and could do little more than keeping the light bulbs in the streetlamps lit. When they get free reign to be "agile" it means they screw things up every few years (each time a new set of under qualified morons take charge), and make sweeping changes to education, health, rights, and economics; usually based only on their own personal convictions, and that idea they had whilst they were being b*ggered by one of the bigger boys in the toilets at Eton.
> 
> 
> Some years ago I saw a great poll of UKIP supporters; who (unsurprisingly) were strongly against immigration to the UK. They were also quite strongly supportive of the right for Brits to live as ex-pats in Spain. Irony clearly being the thing you use to flatten your shirtony.


hey I'm not suggesting that jumping off the bus because you don't like the destination is without problems. The Brexiteers would say jump whenever you like, we will be there to catch you in a big fluffy cushion. Before the bus is even out of sight you will be whisked off in a Rolls Royce, cocktail in hand, for the land of milk and honey. The remainers would try and persuade you that the destination wasn't so bad, and you should stick along for the ride. If you were stupid enough to want to jump of then they would solemnly assure you that you would undoubtedly break every bone in you body, and be left dead in a ditch at the side of the road, never to be seen again. The truth of course lies somewhere in between, and we will find out in due course.


----------



## Noel

Fergie 307 said:


> The original immigration/asylum rule was that a person had to make their application in the first EU country they came to. Ordinarily very sensible. When the current crisis developed the Greeks and Italians quite reasonably pointed out that in the circumstances this was completely unworkable. Have the EU been able to resolve this effectively, no. Not I am sure because of any lack of feeling for those involved, but because he way they make decisions and policies simply isn't able to cope at the speed required. So you still have thousands living in squalid camps, and the system for processing them in chaos.



Asylum seekers do not have to apply for asylum status in the first state, safe or otherwise, that they reach. I've heard a few politicians and others saying this recently, mostly UKIP types. It's not the case. 
See UN Convention on Refugees, Dublin Regulations, Geneva Convention and finally a UK court case some years ago that upheld a case of a migrant not needing to


----------



## Fergie 307

Jake said:


> She can believe what she wants internally, the point is she knows it is now a barren political furrow contrary to what you were saying (but you now appear to agree).


No. If you look it to what she is saying now you will find that there is a lot of wriggle room. So she now advocates EU reform, something that is very unlikely to succeed, leaving the option to leave open when it fails. My suspicion is that this is all a facade, aimed at making them more electable. I suspect f she ever does get real power the mask will fall away pretty rapidly. Let's not forget her father. One of the most unpleasant politicians alive. A holocaust denier, vicious anti semite, homophobe, Islamophobe etc A man who sees nothing wrong with Petain's collaboration with the Nazis, or the rounding up of tens of thousands of French Jews to be sent to concentration camps. You will no doubt say that she expelled him from the party, and yes that is true. The problem is that although the official reason was because of his remarks denying the Holocaust, which incidentally he had made hundreds of times before, without a peep out of his daughter or the party, I have never seen a report where she has directly contradicted those views. Only a month before this blew up she went on record to say how she had been inspired by him and couldn't imagine running the party without the benefit of his "wisdom and experience". So did the party membership rise up to demand he be removed, no. Many actively supported him. I suspect that in reality he wasn't expelled because of his views so much as for his unfortunate habit of airing them very publicly at the most politically inopportune moments. His grand daughter, also a French politician, is just as bad. These are vile people.


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> Kind of my argument really. If anyone is unhappy over the degree of representation they have here in the UK, then why would they want to be ruled by an EU president, who will necessarily be even more remote, and over whom they will have even less influence. I just don't get it.


Ok, so you and I have basically zero individual influence over the EU as a political body. But then we also have effectively zero individual influence over our own government. However, individuals of the likes of Rupert Murdoch do wield not inconsiderable influence over single national governments, but find it much harder to gain the sort of wide power that would be required to manipulate a larger multinational body such as the EU. That for me is a big plus.


----------



## Fergie 307

sploo said:


> Ok, so you and I have basically zero individual influence over the EU as a political body. But then we also have effectively zero individual influence over our own government. However, individuals of the likes of Rupert Murdoch do wield not inconsiderable influence over single national governments, but find it much harder to gain the sort of wide power that would be required to manipulate a larger multinational body such as the EU. That for me is a big plus.


That is a very valid point, anything that keeps his grubby mitts out of things has definitely got to go in the " things in favour" column.


----------



## Awac

Can anyone answer a question for me? *Bringing goods to the EU and back again.*I know it is the wrong way and back for this thread but...

What happens if I want to take a boot, er trailer load of MY tools to my project (and I mean project!) barn in France, then come back with MY tools to UK? Will I have to prove they are mine? Do I have to draw up an itemised list for customs? When I travel tool light it looks like I am on my way to a tool fair....


----------



## Droogs

You have to be able to prove ownership and when each item was purchased if you want to have any chance of avoiding import tax. i had to do it a few years ago coming back from Switzerland. it was a nightmare to do


----------



## selectortone

Awac said:


> Can anyone answer a question for me? *Bringing goods to the EU and back again.*I know it is the wrong way and back for this thread but...
> 
> What happens if I want to take a boot, er trailer load of MY tools to my project (and I mean project!) barn in France, then come back with MY tools to UK? Will I have to prove they are mine? Do I have to draw up an itemised list for customs? When I travel tool light it looks like I am on my way to a tool fair....


In the old days you went to your local Chamber of Commerce, left a hefty cheque as a returnable security and they gave you a multi-page document called a 'Carnet de Passage' upon which you listed everything you were taking with you - electronic demo equipment worth several thousand pounds in my case. You then stood in line with all the lorry drivers at each country exit and entry point and got a Customs stamp to prove that you were entering and leaving with said goods. Two queues per border crossing. On your return, you went back to the Chamber of Commerce and, provided all your Customs stamps were in order, and all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed, they gave your cheque back.

The international commercial traveller community all did a communal dance when we joined the EEC and didn't have to do that for travel on the continent any more. Presumably you have to again now. Ah well, that's progress...


----------



## Awac

selectortone said:


> In the old days you went to your local Chamber of Commerce, left a hefty cheque as a returnable security and they gave you a multi-page document called a 'Carnet de Passage' upon which you listed everything you were taking with you - electronic demo equipment worth several thousand pounds in my case. You then stood in line with all the lorry drivers at each country exit and entry point and got a Customs stamp to prove that you were entering and leaving with said goods. Two queues per border crossing. On your return, you went back to the Chamber of Commerce and, provided all your Customs stamps were in order, and all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed, they gave your cheque back.
> 
> The international commercial traveller community all did a communal dance when we joined the EEC and didn't have to do that for travel on the continent any more. Presumably you have to again now. Ah well, that's progress...


I have those same memories, and I was afraid this might be the answer....sigh.


----------



## Awac

Droogs said:


> You have to be able to prove ownership and when each item was purchased if you want to have any chance of avoiding import tax. i had to do it a few years ago coming back from Switzerland. it was a nightmare to do



Jeez Droogs. I can feel the blood draining from my wallet, I am spread between two countries, tools, motorbikes, shop power tools, hydraulic presses etc.....well isn't brexit wonderful.


----------



## Droogs

Just try to make sure you have paperwork showing when you got it and It need to be over a certain age if I remember rightly to be nulled
but i would recomend contactng customs to see what the script is. Hopefully you'll be ok


----------



## John Brown

Sorry, I haven't been paying proper attention here... Has anyone listed the benefits of Boris' Brexit? Apart from the happy fish twaddle?


----------



## Awac

John Brown said:


> Sorry, I haven't been paying proper attention here... Has anyone listed the benefits of Boris' Brexit? Apart from the happy fish twaddle?


There is no list of boris (small b) brexit benifits. So that's the list complete then.


----------



## Awac

John Brown said:


> Sorry, I haven't been paying proper attention here... Has anyone listed the benefits of Boris' Brexit? Apart from the happy fish twaddle?


Oh and on the fish twaddle. I heard on the radio that they keep saying the EU have given back 25% of their fishing rights, but that the UK government failed to mention the EU have 30%, so 25% of 30% is in fact er, 8.3%....but at least they are happy British fish.....JRM. What a . I couldn't find anything ruder, but I think you get the point....


----------



## John Brown

Oh! I forgot the "sovereignty". The right to be told what to do by Boris, Gove, Patel etc. We live in confusing times, when Cornwall, one of the poorest regions in northern Europe, and one of the biggest recipients of EU cash, votes overwhelmingly to saw off the branch it's sitting on. We should have granted independence for Kernow years ago. I expect it's too late now.
On the other hand, I do like that Mena Dhu...


----------



## Noel

John Brown said:


> Sorry, I haven't been paying proper attention here... Has anyone listed the benefits of Boris' Brexit? Apart from the happy fish twaddle?



See below, a full and comprehensive list I’ve managed to put together of the many benefits:


----------



## PetePontoValentino

jcassidy said:


> Er, no. Exact opposite, actually. I honestly think Britain is going to be f**ked so badly by BREXIT that it will serve as a warning to all the other *Exiters, but I don't want to spark a war on here because there is a significant number of members who think the exact opposite.



That is probably the whole reason why the negotiation needed to be so tough. This was not only about Brexit, it needed to (and will) set an example of what will happen when people leave.


----------



## PetePontoValentino

I have just looked at this thread for the first time as I have shipping issue, however, this is from the UK to Switzerland (not EU). I bought a small item at auction at the start of the week (pocket watch). I have been trying to find a carrier to pack and ship the thing for me. Most are not interested (refusing even to make an offer because of the Brexit situation). It seems the issue at the UK border goes beyond the Brexit change!


----------



## RobinBHM

Awac said:


> Can anyone answer a question for me? *Bringing goods to the EU and back again.*I know it is the wrong way and back for this thread but...
> 
> What happens if I want to take a boot, er trailer load of MY tools to my project (and I mean project!) barn in France, then come back with MY tools to UK? Will I have to prove they are mine? Do I have to draw up an itemised list for customs? When I travel tool light it looks like I am on my way to a tool fair....



I would guess you would face the same problem as musicians and businesses travelling to set up exhibitions.

It probably needs a carnet.


----------



## Rorschach

I wonder what the customs arrangements would be if you took over some Vaccine with you? I bet you wouldn't have any problems then.


----------



## RobinBHM

Awac said:


> Oh and on the fish twaddle. I heard on the radio that they keep saying the EU have given back 25% of their fishing rights, but that the UK government failed to mention the EU have 30%, so 25% of 30% is in fact er, 8.3%....but at least they are happy British fish.....JRM. What a . I couldn't find anything ruder, but I think you get the point....



Yes the UK gets an increase of 25% of fish quota in iUK waters.

But UK fisherman lose some quotas in EU water access.


And the UK does not automatically get back all its quotas in 5 years time.....in 5 years negotiations start again.


----------



## Fergie 307

Peterm1000 said:


> The UK spends substantially less on health than all other G7 members except 1. However, the percentage of that spend that is publicly funded (i.e. the NHS) is one of the highest in the world. In other words, to have a truly great health service, we need to pay more. But other countries have individuals pay that rather than the state. So - either raise taxes, have people buy private healthcare insurance or stop complaining about the service we get.
> 
> I am sure there are efficiencies that can be made, but I doubt they add up to more than 10% and to get a top quality health service will need more than 10%.


Hear hear. I think this goes back to Will Self's observation regarding getting the politicians you deserve. If we want the NHS to go back to its original principle, the best care available no matter what ails you, this is going to cost a LOT more money. None of them really want to take the plunge and tell us how much extra we would have to pay. Personally I think it is too important an issue to be left entirely to politicians. It could be run by a board comprising representatives of all the interested parties, chosen from within their own ranks. This should include politicians from the major parties. This body would decide what needed to be done, and present the bill to the incumbent government. As it is each new government introduces sweeping reforms. These are often I'll conceived, and in any case take so long to implement that they are still in progress when the next lot come along and decide to do something completely different. The result is an organisation in a permanent state of flux.


----------



## Blackswanwood

John Brown said:


> Oh! I forgot the "sovereignty". The right to be told what to do by Boris, Gove, Patel etc. We live in confusing times, when Cornwall, one of the poorest regions in northern Europe, and one of the biggest recipients of EU cash, votes overwhelmingly to saw off the branch it's sitting on. We should have granted independence for Kernow years ago. I expect it's too late now.
> On the other hand, I do like that Mena Dhu...



In fairness haven't we been able to avoid getting caught up by red tape to get out of the blocks quickly securing and administering vaccinations?

Your point about Cornwall is a key one. The same thing applied in Sunderland where only time will tell how car manufacturing fares and I am pretty sure South Wales which has received masses of EU funding. How people voted came down to how they felt which can override logic. The negotiating stance has reflected this - logically when we want free access to the EU for trade why would we expect them to say okay keep all the fish but it became a major sticking point to avoid a narrative in the press that said we'd caved in.

I voted to remain and still wish we had but think we need to just get on with it. I expect many of the downsides will get blurred by the pandemic but the sun still comes up in the morning and I would argue still have more going for the UK than against it.

Cheers


----------



## Fergie 307

PetePontoValentino said:


> I have just looked at this thread for the first time as I have shipping issue, however, this is from the UK to Switzerland (not EU). I bought a small item at auction at the start of the week (pocket watch). I have been trying to find a carrier to pack and ship the thing for me. Most are not interested (refusing even to make an offer because of the Brexit situation). It seems the issue at the UK border goes beyond the Brexit change!


Not sure why you should have this problem. I have just taken delivery of a watch from a business in Spain. Other than extra VAT etc no drama whatsoever. Surely the responsibility lies with the seller, they shouldn't have sold you it if they can't ship it.


----------



## Fergie 307

Jacob said:


> One big issue with brexit is yet to come; that is how brexit voters are going to face the fact that it was all a dreadful mistake.
> Many are saying it already.
> Johnson and co will blame all and sundry for the failings.
> Just have to hope the disappointed don't get too angry and take to the streets.


Heaven forbid that democracy should extend to giving the bunch of thickies that are the British public the right to vote on such important issues. Far better to have not allowed such foolishness. You fetch the rope and I'll go find Cameron.


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> Not sure why you should have this problem. I have just taken delivery of a watch from a business in Spain. Other than extra VAT etc no drama whatsoever. Surely the responsibility lies with the seller, they shouldn't have sold you it if they can't ship it.


It's a big fat "it depends". If the item was over £135 then the rules are different, and if it were shipped by one of the larger courier firms (who are set up for processing VAT and import fees) then it should (probably) be OK. Smaller firms, and items under £135, present a more complex problem (though at least part of that is due to the new VAT rules, which isn't related to Brexit).


----------



## sploo

Blackswanwood said:


> In fairness haven't we been able to avoid getting caught up by red tape to get out of the blocks quickly securing and administering vaccinations?


Nope: Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> I wonder what the customs arrangements would be if you took over some Vaccine with you? I bet you wouldn't have any problems then.


That would depend on whether you're planning on bringing the vaccines back with you (Carnet de Passage) or whether you're shipping them for sale (export/import paperwork + VAT). Additional paperwork required either way (vs no Brexit).


----------



## Jonm

Fergie 307 said:


> Might be more interesting to ask the average German how they feel about paying for their neighbours new found prosperity, particularly following our departure when they and other net contributors will be paying considerably more.


At the same time you could ask them what they think of these other countries keeping the value of the euro down so german exports are cheaper, keeping manufacturing in germany.


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> That would depend on whether you're planning on bringing the vaccines back with you (Carnet de Passage) or whether you're shipping them for sale (export/import paperwork + VAT). Additional paperwork required either way (vs no Brexit).



Wooooooshh!


----------



## Jonm

sploo said:


> Nope: Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit


The approval and setting up vaccinations occurred before Jan 2021, whilst we were still following EU rules. Being out of the EU made no difference.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> Wooooooshh!


No whoooosh; I know what you were trying to imply, but the reality is that just because something is important (and wanted by the EU from the UK), it's unlikely everyone's going to just drop all the rules - especially on something as safety critical as medical products.


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> Based on my wife's experience of working as a doctor in the US, that is chillingly closer to the truth than many in the UK would probably imagine.



A quick trip to A&E in the States cost me $3,000. First thing they asked me for when I got to the hospital? My name. Then my credit card details.

They didn’t ask me for money to get into the ambulance though but it wasn’t cheap


----------



## Awac

Fergie 307 said:


> Heaven forbid that democracy should extend to giving the bunch of thickies that are the British public the right to vote on such important issues. Far better to have not allowed such foolishness. You fetch the rope and I'll go find Cameron.


If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal. -Emma Goldman


----------



## Jonm

Blackswanwood said:


> In fairness haven't we been able to avoid getting caught up by red tape to get out of the blocks quickly securing and administering vaccinations?
> 
> Your point about Cornwall is a key one. The same thing applied in Sunderland where only time will tell how car manufacturing fares and I am pretty sure South Wales which has received masses of EU funding. How people voted came down to how they felt which can override logic. The negotiating stance has reflected this - logically when we want free access to the EU for trade why would we expect them to say okay keep all the fish but it became a major sticking point to avoid a narrative in the press that said we'd caved in.
> 
> I voted to remain and still wish we had but think we need to just get on with it. I expect many of the downsides will get blurred by the pandemic but the sun still comes up in the morning and I would argue still have more going for the UK than against it.
> 
> Cheers


With regard to vaccinations, the approval, advance purchasing and commencement of vaccinations all occurred prior to Jan 2021, whilst we were still following EU rules so I think it made no difference.


----------



## Awac

RobinBHM said:


> I would guess you would face the same problem as musicians and businesses travelling to set up exhibitions.
> 
> It probably needs a carnet.


Why would I need a brass instrument?


----------



## Blackswanwood

sploo said:


> Nope: Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit


Maybe approval wasn't but that's not my point and apologies of I didn't express it clearly.

The Astra Zeneca dispute seems to point to the UK having gained an advantage by not having been wrapped up in the central purchasing process used by the EU.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Jonm said:


> With regard to vaccinations, the approval, advance purchasing and commencement of vaccinations all occurred prior to Jan 2021, whilst we were still following EU rules so I think it made no difference.


We were but we were not a party to the central purchasing initiative taken by the EU


----------



## Fergie 307

Awac said:


> If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal. -Emma Goldman


Very good!


----------



## selectortone

selectortone said:


> In the old days you went to your local Chamber of Commerce, left a hefty cheque as a returnable security and they gave you a multi-page document called a 'Carnet de Passage' upon which you listed everything you were taking with you - electronic demo equipment worth several thousand pounds in my case. You then stood in line with all the lorry drivers at each country exit and entry point and got a Customs stamp to prove that you were entering and leaving with said goods. Two queues per border crossing. On your return, you went back to the Chamber of Commerce and, provided all your Customs stamps were in order, and all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed, they gave your cheque back.
> 
> The international commercial traveller community all did a communal dance when we joined the EEC and didn't have to do that for travel on the continent any more. Presumably you have to again now. Ah well, that's progress...


Quoting myself....

On reflection, my addled old brain is telling me the appropriate document in AWAC's case is the ATA Carnet rather than the Carnet de Passage.

ATA Carnets are for temporary imports of goods such as commercial samples or tools and are used worldwide (with a few exceptions); the Carnet de Passage is for temporary imports of high value goods such as cars, broadcast equipment etc, into a smaller subset of countries, mostly third world.


----------



## John Brown

Fergie 307 said:


> Heaven forbid that democracy should extend to giving the bunch of thickies that are the British public the right to vote on such important issues. Far better to have not allowed such foolishness. You fetch the rope and I'll go find Cameron.


JRM freely acknowledged that if another vote was taken, remain would win, and that's why it wasn't going to happen. How is that democratic?
And for what it's worth, I expect there were "thickies" on both sides. My problem has always been the lies told by the Brexitters. I've heard it said that there were lies on both sides, but I've not seen many details. I saw a lot of people saying "project fear", that's about it.


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> I've heard it said that there were lies on both sides, but I've not seen many details. I saw a lot of people saying "project fear", that's about it.



There will be a 2 year recession losing 800,000jobs in 2016 /2017 /2018, growth -6%. From george Osbourne.
If you look for it, it's all there. Try google.


----------



## Rorschach

doctor Bob said:


> There will be a 2 year recession losing 800,000jobs in 2016 /2017 /2018, growth -6%. From george Osbourne.
> If you look for it, it's all there. Try google.



He was right about the 800k jobs, just not the reason.


----------



## Jonm

Jacob said:


> One big issue with brexit is yet to come; that is how brexit voters are going to face the fact that it was all a dreadful mistake.
> Many are saying it already.
> Johnson and co will blame all and sundry for the failings.
> Just have to hope the disappointed don't get too angry and take to the streets.


I do not think that the vast majority of brexiteers have changed their minds. The demographics mean that more people who voted leave have died compared to those who voted remain.

The other issue is that there appear to be more barriers to trade between NI and the rest of UK than between NI and Eire. We seem to be pushing NI in the direction of Eire. Then there is Scotland which could leave the UK and join EU, I have no idea how a border with Scotland in the EU would work. Both scenarios would swing the balance away from rejoining as Scotland and NI have a majority of remain voters.

Another issue is that we would not rejoin on anything like the terms we had as a member. How many people who voted for remain would be happy rejoining the EU, adopting the Euro and the inevitable closer political union that this requires. Or rejoining with some lesser status, outside the euro but with less say in the rules, effectively becoming a vassal state to the EU.

Perhaps in ten years time we will look at it again, see where we are and where the EU is.

Personally I would vote for rejoining now on the same terms as we left but that will not be on offer, I am not so sure about rejoining on the terms I have outlined above, I would have to decide at the time, assuming I am still here.

It is very emotive, even on here you are getting comments suggesting you are on drugs, I do wish people would be polite and respectful of other opinions.


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> There will be a 2 year recession losing 800,000jobs in 2016 /2017 /2018, growth -6%. From george Osbourne.
> If you look for it, it's all there. Try google.


Those look like predictions to me, rather than outright lies.
As I'm sure you know, Bob, you can find pretty much anything if you Google hard enough.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Awac said:


> If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal. -Emma Goldman


Additionally, Mark Twain’s isn’t the only name that has been attached to this though. American peace activist Phillip Berrigan and anarchist writer Emma Goldman have also been credited with originating this expression, although there is no evidence that either of them said or wrote it. - Snopes.


----------



## Jacob

Fergie 307 said:


> Heaven forbid that democracy should extend to giving the bunch of thickies that are the British public the right to vote on such important issues. Far better to have not allowed such foolishness. You fetch the rope and I'll go find Cameron.


I didn't say they were thick but I do think they were lied to and thoroughly misled. You only have to ask what happened to the "oven ready' deal.


----------



## D_W

Blackswanwood said:


> Maybe approval wasn't but that's not my point and apologies of I didn't express it clearly.
> 
> The Astra Zeneca dispute seems to point to the UK having gained an advantage by not having been wrapped up in the central purchasing process used by the EU.



This is the kind of political argument that you expect newspaper writers to make. 

Because of brexit, you're getting the vaccine far sooner than you would have through the EU distribution channels and red tape. 



John Brown said:


> JRM freely acknowledged that if another vote was taken, remain would win, and that's why it wasn't going to happen. How is that democratic?
> And for what it's worth, I expect there were "thickies" on both sides. My problem has always been the lies told by the Brexitters. I've heard it said that there were lies on both sides, but I've not seen many details. I saw a lot of people saying "project fear", that's about it.



And after you rejoined, some EU mandate would pee everyone off and you'd be in position to vote to exit again - and most people for remaining would state that there shouldn't be a revote. How democratic would that be?

This is a typical situation just like presidential elections in the US where people forget why they voted what they did and complain about whatever is in place. 

I was happy to see trump go but now we're greeted with absolutely stupid claims economically on a daily basis. Now, we're going to update the US vehicle fleet (650k vehicles) with battery powered union US made vehicles (which don't exist) that are majority US parts (also don't exist - tesla is the closest with about 55% US made parts). Tesla is out because they're not union, is the only auto maker in the US with any real growth potential and is probably ripe for federal meddling now with the current administration.

Oh, and somehow, we're going to create a million jobs on 650k vehicles. One wonders how much they're supposed to cost? Imagine a given year where you had to buy a simple basic vehicle that created using 1.5 jobs with benefits just for labor...the vehicles would cost $200k for a small mail cart. 
Following will be contracts awarded to companies who can't meet the costs they propose (unlike tesla, which can actually meet cost targets), and new vehicles with no reliability history, but don't worry, the government will fix them once they buy them. Money doesn't matter when it comes from someone else. 

..

you're living in a dream world when you dream about what could be vs. what is. Nobody will ever be satisfied with what is and with the what could be or what could have been, you'll never be forced to examine all of reality - only the favorable parts you like.


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> I didn't say they were thick but I do think they were lied to and thoroughly misled. You only have to ask what happened to the "oven ready' deal.



I'll bet the remain side was a rare breed of politicians who only made honest statements.


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> Those look like predictions to me, rather than outright lies.


Some say predictions, some say porkies, depends on your politics doesn't it!!


----------



## John Brown

D_W said:


> This is the kind of political argument that you expect newspaper writers to make.
> 
> Because of brexit, you're getting the vaccine far sooner than you would have through the EU distribution channels and red tape.
> 
> 
> 
> And after you rejoined, some EU mandate would pee everyone off and you'd be in position to vote to exit again - and most people for remaining would state that there shouldn't be a revote. How democratic would that be?
> 
> This is a typical situation just like presidential elections in the US where people forget why they voted what they did and complain about whatever is in place.
> 
> I was happy to see trump go but now we're greeted with absolutely stupid claims economically on a daily basis. Now, we're going to update the US vehicle fleet (650k vehicles) with battery powered union US made vehicles (which don't exist) that are majority US parts (also don't exist - tesla is the closest with about 55% US made parts). Tesla is out because they're not union, is the only auto maker in the US with any real growth potential and is probably ripe for federal meddling now with the current administration.
> 
> Oh, and somehow, we're going to create a million jobs on 650k vehicles. One wonders how much they're supposed to cost? Imagine a given year where you had to buy a simple basic vehicle that created using 1.5 jobs with benefits just for labor...the vehicles would cost $200k for a small mail cart.
> Following will be contracts awarded to companies who can't meet the costs they propose (unlike tesla, which can actually meet cost targets), and new vehicles with no reliability history, but don't worry, the government will fix them once they buy them. Money doesn't matter when it comes from someone else.
> 
> ..
> 
> you're living in a dream world when you dream about what could be vs. what is. Nobody will ever be satisfied with what is and with the what could be or what could have been, you'll never be forced to examine all of reality - only the favorable parts you like.


I don't think you quite understand how this stuff works, D_W. We can comment on stuff that goes on in the USA, but how dare you have the gall to think you know anything about UK politics. It seems you just like arguing. Have you run out of things to sharpen?


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Some say predictions, some say porkies, depends on your politics doesn't it!!


There's a difference between poor forecasting and outright deception though.

You could make a prediction of the economic impact of a certain change, based on the available data, and that could be argued over (optimistic/pessimistic/missing important implications). Heck, you could even get to a point where most agree it's as good a prediction as is currently possible - and it could still turn out to be wrong.

Contrast that to making claims you know to be patently false. Especially claims you know to be false, but claims that have been carefully chosen to connect with your target audience.

One is making a mistake (or even just being poor at predicting), the other is lying.


----------



## Droogs

If or when this island ever rejoins it will be on the same conditions as the eastern european nations had to meet and comply with. There will be no special exemptions or rights as we will be joining either having failed to be successful outside as a united nation or in dribs and drabs after the UKs break up. Don't be surprised if/when an independant England rejoins its people face the same restrictions that the Poles, Hungarians and others faced re right to work/live etc for the first few years. Also our rights to full citizenship rights would be dependant on us being able to bring our failing economy into line through unbelievable austerity to adopt the Euro without which we will not be allowed to rejoin. If Scotland and N Ireland split from UK early enough and return to the fold, I believe they would not have any of the problems England would but it would have to be done within the next 5 years and the Scots would have not doubts about adopting the Euro instead of the continued use of sterling.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> There's a difference between poor forecasting and outright deception though.
> 
> You could make a prediction of the economic impact of a certain change, based on the available data, and that could be argued over (optimistic/pessimistic/missing important implications). Heck, you could even get to a point where most agree it's as good a prediction as is currently possible - and it could still turn out to be wrong.
> 
> Contrast that to making claims you know to be patently false. Especially claims you know to be false, but claims that have been carefully chosen to connect with your target audience.
> 
> One is making a mistake (or even just being poor at predicting), the other is lying.



You say mistake, I say lie. It's really not rocket science to see that "what doesn't suit your agenda", is just a poor forcast, we can all do that. It's not big and it's not clever, it's also extremely transparent. Still it will give you a few brownie points from John I suppose, you may even get a bit more kudos within your gang.


----------



## D_W

John Brown said:


> I don't think you quite understand how this stuff works, D_W. We can comment on stuff that goes on in the USA, but how dare you have the gall to think you know anything about UK politics. It seems you just like arguing. Have you run out of things to sharpen?





yeah, things to sharpen are running low - every time I find a new faster trick for sharpening or grinding, everything gets tuned up and then there's nothing to do. Thus resorting to making more tools.


----------



## D_W

I'll ink you guys in on some of our government battery powered vehicles. They'll be expensive, probably not very reliable, probably not very much range, but platitude approved! Tell Jacob they're green and paid for with someone else's money. He'll love 'em.


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> I don't think you quite understand how this stuff works, D_W. We can comment on stuff that goes on in the USA, but how dare you have the gall to think you know anything about UK politics. It seems you just like arguing. Have you run out of things to sharpen?



Is this a joke post. I hope so. If it's for real, well I'm lost for words. Spo much for globilisation and embracing different nations and culture, open to all.
In John's case, not quite ..............


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> You say mistake, I say lie. It's really not rocket science to see that "what doesn't suit your agenda", is just a poor forcast, we can all do that. It's not big and it's not clever, it's also extremely transparent. Still it will give you a few brownie points from John I suppose, you may even get a bit more kudos within your gang.


My point stands; an honest but flawed prediction/estimate is different to a known lie.

Or to put it another way - have you ever miscalculated the cost of a job due to an honest mistake or unforeseen circumstances (I know I have). That's totally different to knowingly telling someone a false figure in order to manipulate them. Having never met you (but seen a fair few of your posts) I rather suspect you've never done the latter because you're a decent human being - unlike those who deliberately misled the public.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> My point stands; an honest but flawed prediction/estimate is different to a known lie.
> 
> Or to put it another way - have you ever miscalculated the cost of a job due to an honest mistake or unforeseen circumstances (I know I have). That's totally different to knowingly telling someone a false figure in order to manipulate them. Having never met you (but seen a fair few of your posts) I rather suspect you've never done the latter because you're a decent human being - unlike those who deliberately misled the public.



Oh come on, stop it. 
George Osbournes figures were so far out he looked like a right pineapple. He lied.
I have never said that job is going to cost £800,000 and then found it cost nothing to make.
George to use your words, knowingly told people a false figure.


----------



## Rorschach

Droogs said:


> If Scotland and N Ireland split from UK early enough and return to the fold, I believe they would not have any of the problems England would but it would have to be done within the next 5 years and the Scots would have not doubts about adopting the Euro instead of the continued use of sterling.



You haven't been paying much attention to the Scotland/EU debate then have you? Scotland can't join the EU with the pound which it wants to keep, but it wouldn't be able to join anyway because it's debts are too high. It would also not get any more favourable terms than any other country no matter how quickly it joined (if it were allowed).


----------



## billw

If Scotland want to go, bloody let them. I suspect the realities of independence will be a whopping punch in the face and they'll have their local version of Brexit. Oh and if it were my choice I'd make it clear that it was a one-way street. Dissolve the UK as soon as they go.


----------



## D_W

This is the magic of politics. Only one side intentionally misleads the public. The other may have errors greater in magnitude or lesser, but if they say the right things or belong to the right group, their costly mistakes are "honest". 

The only trouble is that nobody agrees across the board which side is which.


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> well I'm lost for words.


In that case my work is done. 
Was it a joke? What do you think?


----------



## D_W

Rorschach said:


> but it wouldn't be able to join anyway because it's debts are too high.........



objectively solving their own problems and figuring out how to make their services attractive to the rest of the world is out, I guess?


----------



## Blackswanwood

D_W said:


> This is the kind of political argument that you expect newspaper writers to make.
> 
> Because of brexit, you're getting the vaccine far sooner than you would have through the EU distribution channels and red tape.



This is the kind of comment someone who hasn't followed what has happened would make.


----------



## D_W

Blackswanwood said:


> This is the kind of comment someone who hasn't followed what has happened would make.



Doses are administered in the UK so far at a rate 4-10 times higher than europe. Even in the US where there is loud complaining about the slow distribution, we're 2 to 7 times or so higher than the european vaccine rates. 

What am I missing - if you weren't in the EU, you would've been able to just roll your own and do as you please?









Total COVID-19 vaccine doses administered per 100 people


All doses, including boosters, are counted individually.




ourworldindata.org


----------



## D_W

I see in the "fact check" article "oh, there were special exclusions that would've allowed the UK to approve and distribute unlicensed vaccines, anyway". 

It's naive to think that would've just gone over without any resistance. You can do a lot of things. Whether or not they would've been done that way is a completely different thing. I could just see the criticism "we shouldn't move faster than the full EU, it's not safe". 

The statement would be more accurately put as "brexit likely has reduced time to approval for viable vaccines and increased distribution time without having to rely on regulatory caveats that may have been controversial or cumbersome".


----------



## D_W

(However, success is punished if it comes under the wrong circumstances...that's politics).


----------



## Blackswanwood

D_W said:


> Doses are administered in the UK so far at a rate 4-10 times higher than europe. Even in the US where there is loud complaining about the slow distribution, we're 2 to 7 times or so higher than the european vaccine rates.
> 
> What am I missing - if you weren't in the EU, you would've been able to just roll your own and do as you please?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Total COVID-19 vaccine doses administered per 100 people
> 
> 
> All doses, including boosters, are counted individually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ourworldindata.org



We're not in the EU and have done our own thing and are ahead of the EU.

The EU are now complaining that they getting their delivery from Astra Zeneca after the UK. 

My point is that arguably it's one instance of us having "regained our sovereignty" being better for us. Admittedly it's the only one I can see.


----------



## Blackswanwood

D_W said:


> I see in the "fact check" article "oh, there were special exclusions that would've allowed the UK to approve and distribute unlicensed vaccines, anyway".
> 
> It's naive to think that would've just gone over without any resistance. You can do a lot of things. Whether or not they would've been done that way is a completely different thing. I could just see the criticism "we shouldn't move faster than the full EU, it's not safe".
> 
> The statement would be more accurately put as "brexit likely has reduced time to approval for viable vaccines and increased distribution time without having to rely on regulatory caveats that may have been controversial or cumbersome".


You've missed the point - I'm talking about placing orders for the drug not approval. The EU bought their vaccines as a collective. We bought our own much earlier.


----------



## Jacob

Blackswanwood said:


> You've missed the point - I'm talking about placing orders for the drug not approval. The EU bought their vaccines as a collective. We bought our own much earlier.


......whilst we still were in the EU. The EU had nothing to do with it either way. 
The only surprise is that we seem to be ahead of the game on this, although behind on everything else, with the worst per capita deaths in the world.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> ......whilst we still were in the EU. The EU had nothing to do with it either way



We weren't in the EU, we left in Jan 2020.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> We weren't in the EU, we left in Jan 2020.


We were still in transition until Jan this year, which basically meant no change until the oven ready  deal was signed.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Jacob said:


> We were still in transition until Jan this year, which basically meant no change until the oven ready  deal was signed.


With respect I think that is a different point to how we bought our vaccines.


----------



## Jacob

Blackswanwood said:


> With respect I think that is a different point to how we bought our vaccines.


The point is we weren't constrained by the EU over this or many other things. So far there are no examples of benefits from our regained "sovereignty"


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Jacob said:


> ......whilst we still were in the EU. The EU had nothing to do with it either way.



The EU threatened Germany and the Netherlands (and possibly others) with court action if they acted independently. Germany is now blaming the UK for getting the vaccine first rather than blaming the EU, which of course is at fault.
edit - We weren't constrained by the EU over this? Of course we would have been. Just like the others.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> We were still in transition until Jan this year, which basically meant no change until the oven ready  deal was signed.



So you admit you were wrong then, we weren't in the EU.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Jacob said:


> The point is we weren't constrained by the EU over this or many other things. So far there are no examples of benefits from our regained "sovereignty"


But isn't it the case that if we had not left the EU we would have been in with them moving at the pace of the slowest and buying as part of their bulk deal.

I'm not arguing Brexit is a good thing and as I've already said I cannot yet see any other benefits but as luck would have it we could move faster than the rest and have benefited. I do wonder if you are just determined to refuse to accept that there could be the odd benefit (even if outweighed by disadvantages in the round) for the sake of it?


----------



## Noel

Phil Pascoe said:


> The EU threatened Germany and the Netherlands (and possibly others) with court action if they acted independently. Germany is now blaming the UK for getting the vaccine first rather than blaming the EU, which of course is at fault.
> edit - We weren't constrained by the EU over this? Of course we would have been. Just like the others.



No, it’s a contractual issue between AZ and the EU. AZ cannot deliver according to the contract.
PS- got links to EU threats to Germany? Haven’t seen mention of that.


----------



## D_W

Blackswanwood said:


> You've missed the point - I'm talking about placing orders for the drug not approval. The EU bought their vaccines as a collective. We bought our own much earlier.



Imagine the criticism you'd have received for "hoarding" by ordering earlier, regardless of the rules. I expect if the EU remains slow, they'll start pointing fingers at others. But that's also politics. 

There was an article about this in our AP news wire. Israel has dosed 40% of the population at least once. UAE at a high percentage just below that, and for some reason, Serbia is at the head of the pack in the EU (are they using russian vaccines?). The article raised the question as to why the EU has been so slow to order when it's not a supply issue at this point. 

In the US, it's a supply issue - there are so many commercial health care providers that could administer the vaccine that they're just sitting and waiting. We get emails from them all the time - hoping that we'll go to them for vaccination instead of the health plans. My health plan had enough to do all of their staff and nursing home residents (which is about 10% of the local population). 

My parents live in an area with fewer health care workers by proportion and fewer nursing home residents and were vaccinated last week. It took 3 days for them to get scheduled. 

Apparently, the issue here also is the scheduling groups are going willy nilly and doing no confirmation. If they have a 10% cancel rate, some of the doses are going to waste, so the health systems themselves have started packing relatives of their employees in based on risk level (as in, ahead of the priority classes in the general population). They can screen their own employees and get relatives in faster so as not to waste the doses. 

I suppose this is yet another advantage of having a combination public, private not for profit and private for profit systems - we can easily administer the vaccines faster than we can get them.


----------



## D_W

Blackswanwood said:


> But isn't it the case that if we had not left the EU we would have been in with them moving at the pace of the slowest and buying as part of their bulk deal.



It's not the case that you would have been required to. I wonder how much work and red tape would be involved in exercising the exceptions and documenting them. Something you don't have to do now. 

I'd imagine there's a fair chance that your gov. would've had some part wishing to do that and others wishing to go with the EU system (for thoroughness and safety). 

I was a little bit incensed here, actually, about the US approving vaccines slower. We also heard bloviation about how the US wouldn't be able to administer vaccines efficiently because we don't have a centralized system, and how far behind we'd be compared to europe. It's almost a joke - the pharmacies here that do vaccinations are more than happy to distribute anything they can, and if the health systems lag at all, the public goes to the private options.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Oh come on, stop it.
> George Osbournes figures were so far out he looked like a right pineapple. He lied.
> I have never said that job is going to cost £800,000 and then found it cost nothing to make.
> George to use your words, knowingly told people a false figure.


Osborne was/is a waste of skin and oxygen - no argument there. Did he outright deliberately lie? I'm not sure I'd actually put him as smart enough to come up with a coherent deception; my money would be incompetence due to lack of ability in his field. Basically like Nadine Dorries passionately rejecting Theresa May's Withdrawal Deal because it would leave us with no MEPs.


----------



## sploo

Phil Pascoe said:


> edit - We weren't constrained by the EU over this? Of course we would have been. Just like the others.


As detailed by the link I posted earlier (Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit) we were not constrained. Pertinent quote:

"...since 2012, the UK’s Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) has been free, under regulation 174, to give temporary approval to an unlicensed medicinal product in the case of certain types of public health threat, such as a pandemic. 

When the MHRA approved the Pfizer/BioNTech coronavirus vaccine for use in the UK on 2 December, the government press release accompanying this announcement made clear that approval was given under regulation 174.

The government has previously said that “_if a suitable Covid-19 vaccine candidate, with strong supporting evidence of safety, quality and effectiveness from clinical trials becomes available before the end of the transition period, EU legislation which we have implemented via regulation 174 of the Human Medicines Regulations allows the MHRA to temporarily authorise the supply of a medicine or vaccine, based on public health need._"


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> In that case my work is done.
> Was it a joke? What do you think?



I'd like to think it was a joke.


----------



## doctor Bob

Sploo you say, Tomato we say Tomato


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Sploo you say, Tomato we say Tomato


I say tomato... Dominic Cummings says "Boris, call them funny coloured foreign invaders, and I'll use Cambridge Analytica to flood Facebook with posts from turnips complaining that the tomatoes are coming here from the EU and stealing our jobs".

*cough* Anyway, I've got to nip off to see Barnard Castle.


----------



## Jacob

What does she say to Dave I wonder?  Samantha Cameron business hit by post-Brexit 'teething issues'


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> The point is we weren't constrained by the EU over this or many other things. So far there are no examples of benefits from our regained "sovereignty"



Except that you didn't need to defend any exceptions and hesitate to step forward with approving the vaccine early and distributing it far faster than the EU, and since you're in it, you haven't had to field any of those obnoxious snooty comments about hoarding it and keeping it away from other member states. 

It's only life or death in some cases here, so no big deal, right?


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> I say tomato... Dominic Cummings says "Boris, call them funny coloured foreign invaders, and I'll use Cambridge Analytica to flood Facebook with posts from turnips complaining that the tomatoes are coming here from the EU and stealing our jobs".
> 
> *cough* Anyway, I've got to nip off to see Barnard Castle.



Oh dear, I thought my post sort of said lets agree to disagree and call it a day on that. Looks like you really have got your knickers in a twist, still as I always say, there is nothing in this world which can't be resolved by having a vent on a woodwork forum.


----------



## Droogs

doctor Bob said:


> Oh dear, I thought my post sort of said lets agree to disagree and call it a day on that. Looks like you really have got your knickers in a twist, still as I always say, there is nothing in this world which can't be resolved by having a vent on a woodwork forum.


Damn straight DrBob Mumsnet is far far too vicious!

edit typo


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Noel said:


> No, it’s a contractual issue between AZ and the EU. AZ cannot deliver according to the contract.
> PS- got links to EU threats to Germany? Haven’t seen mention of that.


You obviously didn't hear the German MEP on the radio this morning saying how the EU would make things difficult for the UK.

edit - Sorry, I misread that. It was said on the radio this morning that Germany and the Netherlands (and France, iirc) were told by the EU that there would be court cases against them as the EU had decided to negotiate en bloc. They had initially attempted to buy at the about the same time as the UK. (It was on a predominantly right wing radio station, though, so undoubtely a lie.)


----------



## Phil Pascoe

sploo said:


> As detailed by the link I posted earlier (Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit) we were not constrained.


I didn't say we were. I said we would have been - not quite the same thing.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Oh dear, I thought my post sort of said lets agree to disagree and call it a day on that. Looks like you really have got your knickers in a twist, still as I always say, there is nothing in this world which can't be resolved by having a vent on a woodwork forum.


Nah. It's my eyesight in a twist; that's why I'm sending this message whilst driving to a castle.

(I'm not actually driving whilst sending messages - just in case someone doesn't get the joke)

But Droogs is right; stay off Mumsnet; it's feral.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Phil Pascoe said:


> Which is what the UK voted to stay in, and if it were we would undoubtedly have voted to stay in it. The referendum should have been held before Maastricht. We know why it wasn't, of course - the government would have had to have given out truthful information and thus knew a referendum would have come up with the wrong answer.


Um. Phil, I'm not sure you can say that's how a referendum works in the UK unless you don't look at buses much.

I mean, over here in Ireland, every EU treaty required a referendum and there's a body provided for in law called the Referendum Commission who must distribute to every voter a pamphlet explaining the vote, what each alternative means and they are required by law to not distribute biased or false infomation, so you get things like this:


https://www.refcom.ie/previous-referendums/lisbon-treaty-2009/Referendum-Lisbon-treaty-2009-guide.pdf




https://www.refcom.ie/previous-referendums/lisbon-treaty-2009/Referendum-Lisbon-treaty-2009-extended-guide.pdf



It's expensive to do, it's hard work, and it's absolutely vital and the UK doesn't do it at all.

And just to depress you further, even when we do it, we still make shameful decisions like the referendum on birthright citizenship which we have been trying to fix for over a decade since, so even when you give people an official vetted source of independent unbiased information they will often ignore it in favor of their own whims. For example:



D_W said:


> Because of brexit, you're getting the vaccine far sooner than you would have through the EU distribution channels and red tape.



I mean, this is false. It's demonstrably false, it's known widely to be false. The fact that the approval of the vaccine happened before the end of the transition period - in other words, while the UK was still operating under EU law and before brexit had taken effect - shows that it's false. The statement has no merit at all, it's indefensible on every level. And yet DW believes it despite all the facts and evidence against it.

When that's widespread and you run a referendum, you're not going to get a decision based on facts, you're basically holding an advertising duel.

It's not a great way to govern a society.



> Tesla is out because they're not union, is the only auto maker in the US with any real growth potential


Okay, my inner engineer can't let that slide without pointing out that Tesla are all sizzle, no steak and if you want to know how good they are, look at the average time to fix one in the US.
If you want an electric car, said the guy with the electronic engineering degree, buy something like a Nissan Leaf.


----------



## nabs

sploo said:


> As detailed by the link I posted earlier (Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit) we were not constrained. Pertinent quote:
> 
> "...since 2012, the UK’s Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) has been free, under regulation 174, to give temporary approval to an unlicensed medicinal product in the case of certain types of public health threat, such as a pandemic.
> 
> When the MHRA approved the Pfizer/BioNTech coronavirus vaccine for use in the UK on 2 December, the government press release accompanying this announcement made clear that approval was given under regulation 174.
> 
> The government has previously said that “_if a suitable Covid-19 vaccine candidate, with strong supporting evidence of safety, quality and effectiveness from clinical trials becomes available before the end of the transition period, EU legislation which we have implemented via regulation 174 of the Human Medicines Regulations allows the MHRA to temporarily authorise the supply of a medicine or vaccine, based on public health need._"


this is accurate Sploo, but it does miss one important factor in as far as Brexit has allowed the government to dodge the discussion on how a global pandemic requires a global solution. 

For the time being the EU have avoided entering into an international trade war on vaccine supply, but there is no escaping the fact that getting vaccine to those in most need will at some point require people in richer countries to accept their vaccines will be delayed because of the greater need elsewhere.

EU member states can't avoid this discussion for long but our hard won victory of becoming a minor player on the world stage means we can watch from the sidelines. A brexit dividend?


----------



## D_W

MarkDennehy said:


> If you want an electric car, said the guy with the electronic engineering degree, buy something like a Nissan Leaf.



The model 3 is an honest viable car. The nissan leaf here in the states is a no-go due to short range and no thermal management. If we were stuck with the leaf instead of the model 3, we would still be listening to short rage comments. The first leaf here that quoted 130 miles range had 70, and then folks who live in cold weather areas have battery life problems. 

To call the leaf steak and the tesla sizzle is like calling steak sizzle and veggie burgers steak. 

You were still a member of the EU technically, do you really think the EU was operating with the UK the same way it would have without imminent exit in the near future? That's naive.


----------



## D_W

nabs said:


> this is accurate Sploo, but it does miss one important factor in as far as Brexit has allowed the government to dodge the discussion on how a global pandemic requires a global solution.
> 
> For the time being the EU have avoided entering into an international trade war on vaccine supply, but there is no escaping the fact that getting vaccine to those in most need will at some point require people in richer countries to accept their vaccines will be delayed because of the greater need elsewhere.
> 
> EU member states can't avoid this discussion for long but our hard won victory of becoming a minor player on the world stage means we can watch from the sidelines. A brexit dividend?



You vaccinate your entire population or as many as will tolerate it. That's the solution. It doesn't require a global government, it requires vaccines. Slowing yours down to the pace of someone else's isn't helping the problem just because it's consensus.


----------



## Jacob

After much thought I've spotted a brexit dividend!!
If you are a lobster or a shellfish that is - exports have ground to a halt and their lives have been prolonged! That should bring a smile to their little faces!
They'll be in really good nick if they can fatten up through the summer.
The scots should eat more of them instead of deep fried mars bars and haggis.


----------



## doctor Bob




----------



## doctor Bob

There is a really interesting article here.

Hiroo Onoda - Wikipedia

It sort of mirrors the story of remainers.


----------



## Jacob

Some interesting scams here. Brexit beats them all. Top 5 financial scams


----------



## RobinBHM

MarkDennehy said:


> When that's widespread and you run a referendum, you're not going to get a decision based on facts, you're basically holding an advertising duel


Wise words.

The Leave campaign was built on emotive slogans......it's quite easy to sell "the grass is greener"

The Remain campaign had an altogether more difficult job: try selling the benefits of the Single Market.....it's pretty hard to sell the benefits of something the public don't even know it is a benefit.

There are even business owners that export to Europe and have been horrified to discover their business has ground to a halt.


----------



## Jacob

RobinBHM said:


> ..."
> 
> The Remain campaign had an altogether more difficult job: try selling the benefits of the Single Market.....it's pretty hard to sell the benefits of something the public don't even know it is a benefit.
> ......


They failed to promote EU from the start, even though the benefits were obvious to every import/exporter, every user of imported goods (nearly all of us), every employer/employee looking for work/workers further afield, every foreign holiday maker, every retiree abroad, nearly every Irish person north or south, every exchange student, every organisation joint effort over research, crime, whatever....and so on, and on!
It could have won the election for Labour had they not sat on the fence so feebly and allowed twerps like Farage to get away with it.
The yanks are free of Trump, just 4 years of insanity, we will have the legacy of Farage for years to come.


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


>


Well, that's a new low in debating techniques.


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> Well, that's a new low in debating techniques.


You haven't read all my posts have you      trawl back you'll find lower.
I've never been so offended






The great thing is John, I can laugh at myself, I know what I am. I don't take myself too seriously and you won't offend or upset me, or stop me. To be honest posts like yours rather tickle me.


----------



## Noel

D_W said:


> You were still a member of the EU technically, do you really think the EU was operating with the UK the same way it would have without imminent exit in the near future? That's naive.



And still is a member. 
DW I’ve a feeling Brexit is a bit like the game of cricket for you.
: )


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> You haven't read all my posts have you      trawl back you'll find lower.
> I've never been so offended
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The great thing is John, I can laugh at myself, I know what I am. I don't take myself too seriously and you won't offend or upset me, or stop me. To be honest posts like yours rather tickle me.


Thanks. I try to inject a bit of self deprecatory humour into my posts, so I'm not surprised they tickle you. Apart from when you have to ask if I was joking, when I believe D_W, who is American, and as such is supposed to be immune to irony, didn't need to ask.


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> Thanks. I try to inject a bit of self deprecatory humour into my posts, so I'm not surprised they tickle you. Apart from when you have to ask if I was joking, when I believe D_W, who is American, and as such is supposed to be immune to irony, didn't need to ask.



Keep trying John, water off a ducks back.
Heres a picture just for you...........





Have you trawled back, there's some really low posts to look for.


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> Keep trying John, water off a ducks back.
> Heres a picture just for you...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you trawled back, there's some really low posts to look for.


No thanks.


----------



## Droogs

brilliant☝picture


----------



## MarkDennehy

D_W said:


> The model 3 is an honest viable car.


Only if you discount maintenance. The average repair times for all the teslas including the 3 are _diabolical_ compared to every other manufacturer. The truth is, they were very good at making a new design, but all the expertise the other manufacturers had developed over decades in the areas of manufacturing processes and building for maintenance (by mechanics, not by punters) were thrown out with the bathwater because Disruption! Innovation! Newness! Shiny! 

I think, if you love the new stuff they have and want it, the best thing to do is wait a few years and buy a car from someone else that incorporates the features that turned out to work. Tesla is like Citroen on crack cocaine in terms of making new things that don't really last that well. 



> You were still a member of the EU technically, do you really think the EU was operating with the UK the same way it would have without imminent exit in the near future? That's naive.


I'm in Ireland, we're still a member of the EU and it has consistently polled above 80% approval in Ireland for decades. 
As to "would they have done it this way for everyone else" they *did*. The UK was operating under EU rules, not EU-rules-for-the-UK. Everyone else, us included, worked under the same rules. 
It wasn't until this past few weeks that the UK has operated under UK rules rather than EU rules.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Jacob said:


> They failed to promote EU from the start, even though the benefits were obvious to every import/exporter, every user of imported goods (nearly all of us), every employer/employee looking for work/workers further afield, every foreign holiday maker, every retiree abroad, nearly every Irish person north or south, every exchange student, every organisation joint effort over research, crime, whatever....and so on, and on!



I do wonder - and I'm not alone - about that promotion. The referendum campaign would have been far too late for it.
Over here, well, these are everywhere, just part of the landscape:













When you know what paid for what because it's right up there on the sign, well, all politics is local really and "they fixed the road" is a punchline to a lot of jokes over here because every politician in the country will claim to have fixed some bit of local infrastructure. When the EU actually pays for major roads you use every day and we know that because it's on the signs.... well, like I said, 80%+ approval ratings for decades, _even as we voted against two treaties and had them reworked_. 

But could you have gotten that effect when instead of listing who paid for what, certain newspapers were inventing fake stories to use up excess ink about "EU standard bananas" and the like, for decades? I think this argument got lost gradually over the last 20 years rather than on one day in 2016.


----------



## Jacob

MarkDennehy said:


> ..... I think this argument got lost gradually over the last 20 years rather than on one day in 2016.


Yes. The referendum was a massive catch-up learning process for most of us, pro or anti. It came too late, after the event.
EU sponsored signs are up in the UK too but not that obvious. Completely ignored in some deprived areas where EU spending was making a difference but didn't stop them voting against it.
PS my wife tells me we have one in the village - a local business got some sort of boost from the EU. I'll find out about it.


----------



## sploo

D_W said:


> You were still a member of the EU technically, do you really think the EU was operating with the UK the same way it would have without imminent exit in the near future? That's naive.


Yes, because it's done on the rule of law.

Now, I've no doubt many were pretty tired of our (the UK's) BS. I mean, we kept sending them morons such as David Davis; that would be enough to make anyone hate your guts. But - it would be a dangerous game to ignore or break international law just because you're unhappy with the other side.

BTW I mention the thought of breaking international law because one side did threaten it; and it wasn't the EU.


----------



## Noel

MarkDennehy said:


> I do wonder - and I'm not alone - about that promotion. The referendum campaign would have been far too late for it.
> Over here, well, these are everywhere, just part of the landscape:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you know what paid for what because it's right up there on the sign, well, all politics is local really and "they fixed the road" is a punchline to a lot of jokes over here because every politician in the country will claim to have fixed some bit of local infrastructure. When the EU actually pays for major roads you use every day and we know that because it's on the signs.... well, like I said, 80%+ approval ratings for decades, _even as we voted against two treaties and had them reworked_.
> 
> But could you have gotten that effect when instead of listing who paid for what, certain newspapers were inventing fake stories to use up excess ink about "EU standard bananas" and the like, for decades? I think this argument got lost gradually over the last 20 years rather than on one day in 2016.



I hear Amazon are going to open a fulfilment facility somewhere, did you hear where Mark? Amazon.ie ?


----------



## Rorschach

MarkDennehy said:


> I do wonder - and I'm not alone - about that promotion. The referendum campaign would have been far too late for it.
> Over here, well, these are everywhere, just part of the landscape:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you know what paid for what because it's right up there on the sign, well, all politics is local really and "they fixed the road" is a punchline to a lot of jokes over here because every politician in the country will claim to have fixed some bit of local infrastructure. When the EU actually pays for major roads you use every day and we know that because it's on the signs.... well, like I said, 80%+ approval ratings for decades, _even as we voted against two treaties and had them reworked_.
> 
> But could you have gotten that effect when instead of listing who paid for what, certain newspapers were inventing fake stories to use up excess ink about "EU standard bananas" and the like, for decades? I think this argument got lost gradually over the last 20 years rather than on one day in 2016.



The EU didn't pay for it, they took your money and then gave it back to you and except you to be grateful.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> There is a really interesting article here.
> 
> Hiroo Onoda - Wikipedia
> 
> It sort of mirrors the story of remainers.


A guy who was unaware of the world around him, and had a viewpoint that was decades out of date. Hmmm... that would be a better fit for a different group, no?

But for what it's worth; us whinging remainers are well aware that we've lost. The problem is that the vast majority of leave voters also lost; they just haven't realised it (I'd like to add "yet", but I'm not that optimistic). The spoils of victory do also appear to be a bit thin on the ground.


----------



## Noho12C

Rorschach said:


> The EU didn't pay for it, they took your money and then gave it back to you and except you to be grateful.



I think you get that point partially wrong. Indeed, UK was a net contributor to the EU budget, so in a way they paid for what was advertised as "paid by EU".

However, one thing many brexiteer forgot to tell is that EU is financing many large projects across EU. When handling these big projects without EU funding, part of the financing is coming from banks. As these projects are very big, you have usually many banks financing the infrastructure project via loan syndication (to spread the risk). Which is costly in term of interests.

Having the EU funding those infrastructure projects, you remove part of the banks costs, which can add up to a nice sum on a 5 to 10 years projects.


----------



## Awac

D_W said:


> Except that you didn't need to defend any exceptions and hesitate to step forward with approving the vaccine early and distributing it far faster than the EU, and since you're in it, you haven't had to field any of those obnoxious snooty comments about hoarding it and keeping it away from other member states.
> 
> It's only life or death in some cases here, so no big deal, right?


From what I understand the former president didn't need to hesitate with covid planning either.....


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> The EU didn't pay for it, they took your money and then gave it back to you .......


That remark could apply to every single thing done by every government everywhere.


> and expect you to be grateful.


 Nonsense. The expectation is that people recognise the power of our governments/organisations to organise and mobilise on our behalf. This is what we want them to do.
With the referendum and so many vacuous comments like this, you get the impression that people have absolutely no idea at all about how things work in the real world and have never given it a thought.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> That remark could apply to every single thing done by every government everywhere. Nonsense. The expectation is that people recognise the power of our governments/organisations to organise and mobilise on our behalf.
> With the referendum and so many vacuous comments like this, you get the impression that people have absolutely no idea at all about how things work in the real world, and have never thought about it for a second



Last time I checked the UK government doesn't stick signs on roads saying they paid for them. I know my government pays for stuff, that's where my taxes go.


----------



## D_W

Awac said:


> From what I understand the former president didn't need to hesitate with covid planning either.....



What's to hesitate on when you don't have a plan? (though it was interesting that the vaccines were being developed and not a peep from anyone about them until right after the election. That was intentionally timed, but given his railing against prescription drug prices and companies no surprise that the drug companies waited until someone else was in office to provide updates). 

He didn't even have a plan when he got covid - he looked at one of his advisors and said "so, is this how I'm going out?"

I sure don't want to see biden get it, as his VP is scary.


----------



## sploo

D_W said:


> I sure don't want to see biden get it, as his VP is scary.


How so? (genuine question; I don't know much about her... though... define "scary" on the "Trump/Pence index")


----------



## Jonm

Blackswanwood said:


> We're not in the EU and have done our own thing and are ahead of the EU.
> 
> The EU are now complaining that they getting their delivery from Astra Zeneca after the UK.
> 
> My point is that arguably it's one instance of us having "regained our sovereignty" being better for us. Admittedly it's the only one I can see.


The advance orders, approvals and start of vaccination all occurred whilst we were in the transition period and following the eu rules so nothing to do with “regaining our sovereignty” which occurred on 1 Jan 2021.


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> How so? (genuine question; I don't know much about her... though... define "scary" on the "Trump/Pence index")


She's against assault rifles!
She's got a brilliant CV. A very experienced and progressive politician. Makes Trump family and entourage look like retarded teenagers with personality problems.








Kamala Harris - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## doctor Bob

Being reported by some news agencies that EU will put in place an export ban on the pfizor vaccine from tomorrow, effecting UK supply.
I hope this is not true as most people need the second shot.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> Being reported by some news agencies that EU will put in place an export ban on the pfizor vaccine from tomorrow, effecting UK supply.
> I hope this is not true as most people need the second shot.



I hope that's not the case.

People are dying, here and in the EU.....it's not great to see fighting over vaccines like a couple chavs on Black Friday in Asda having a scrap over a cheap TV. (It's nothing to do with UK but EU and AZ)


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> The EU didn't pay for it, they took your money and then gave it back to you and except you to be grateful.


Considering Brexit red tape as a result of leaving the Single Market will exceed out net club fee......it could well be argued we got all the funding projects for free.


----------



## Fergie 307

Jacob said:


> I didn't say they were thick but I do think they were lied to and thoroughly misled. You only have to ask what happened to the "oven ready' deal.


Oh please no, not the remainers refrain. How does it go, wring hands, wail " but we were all lied to", repeat.
For what it's worth I agree we were all lied to. Where I suspect we will differ is that I would say we were lied to in pretty much equal measure by both sides. You will no doubt maintain that only leavers lied, and that everything the remain side put forward was the absolute truth. The reality is that anyone who is prepared to make a decision based upon what they are told by politicians deserves whatever they get. Unfortunately they mostly tell lies. It's not difficult to tell when they're doing it, it you look closely you can see their lips moving.


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> Considering Brexit red tape as a result of leaving the Single Market will exceed out net club fee......it could well be argued we got all the funding projects for free.


Well no, in our case they took our money and gave us about half of it back.


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> Oh please no, not the remainers refrain. How does it go, wring hands, wail " but we were all lied to", repeat.
> For what it's worth I agree we were all lied to. Where I suspect we will differ is that I would say we were lied to in pretty much equal measure by both sides. You will no doubt maintain that only leavers lied, and that everything the remain side put forward was the absolute truth. The reality is that anyone who is prepared to make a decision based upon what they are told by politicians deserves whatever they get. Unfortunately they mostly tell lies. It's not difficult to tell when they're doing it, it you look closely you can see their lips moving.











Leave.EU founder Arron Banks: we would 'lead people up the garden path if we had to' on Brexit


The man who bankrolled the Leave.EU campaign today told a parliamentary inquiry into fake news that he wasn’t averse to leading voters “up the garden path” over Brexit.




www.standard.co.uk




Both sides mislead; agreed. Not sure I'd agree with "equal measure".


----------



## Fergie 307

RobinBHM said:


> I hope that's not the case.
> 
> People are dying, here and in the EU.....it's not great to see fighting over vaccines like a couple chavs on Black Friday in Asda having a scrap over a cheap TV. (It's nothing to do with UK but EU and AZ)


And the latest is that they are allegedly now proposing to take the Germans and Belgians to court because they broke EU rules by securing supplies of vaccine on their own account, rather than waiting for the EU to get their act together.


----------



## Awac

D_W said:


> What's to hesitate on when you don't have a plan? (though it was interesting that the vaccines were being developed and not a peep from anyone about them until right after the election. That was intentionally timed, but given his railing against prescription drug prices and companies no surprise that the drug companies waited until someone else was in office to provide updates).
> 
> He didn't even have a plan when he got covid - he looked at one of his advisors and said "so, is this how I'm going out?"
> 
> I sure don't want to see biden get it, as his VP is scary.


I will do you a 2 for 1 deal. You get boris (small b) back (he was born in America and as I say, he is the first American Prime minister but not the last I expect), and I will throw gove (small c, sorry g)in for free....they like to be fed chlorinated chicken if you can spare some....


----------



## Jacob

Fergie 307 said:


> Oh please no, not the remainers refrain. How does it go, wring hands, wail " but we were all lied to", repeat.
> For what it's worth I agree we were all lied to. Where I suspect we will differ is that I would say we were lied to in pretty much equal measure by both sides. You will no doubt maintain that only leavers lied, and that everything the remain side put forward was the absolute truth. The reality is that anyone who is prepared to make a decision based upon what they are told by politicians deserves whatever they get. Unfortunately they mostly tell lies. It's not difficult to tell when they're doing it, it you look closely you can see their lips moving.


Can't think of any egregious lies from the remain camp, what did you have in mind? In fact I can't think of much the remain camp actually said. There was a govt leaflet but the general assumption was that remain was a dead cert. Horribly wrong!
Any obvious lies in this? :- https://assets.publishing.service.g...ean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf


----------



## Fergie 307

Rorschach said:


> You haven't been paying much attention to the Scotland/EU debate then have you? Scotland can't join the EU with the pound which it wants to keep, but it wouldn't be able to join anyway because it's debts are too high. It would also not get any more favourable terms than any other country no matter how quickly it joined (if it were allowed).


Oh I don't know, the idea of political and economic stability didn't seem to bother them where the Greeks were concerned.


----------



## D_W

Awac said:


> I will do you a 2 for 1 deal. You get boris (small b) back (he was born in America and as I say, he is the first American Prime minister but not the last I expect), and I will throw gove (small c, sorry g)in for free....they like to be fed chlorinated chicken if you can spare some....



I don't know what chlorinated chicken is, but we've got lots of chicken and lots of pools, so I'm sure we've got he chlorine to make it!!

What do we need in the US? Fiscal responsibility and a nod toward innovation. Every side right now wants more than all sides can have total (the able-bodied beggars, and the innovators...). 

Not sure what we'd do with Boris, but there have been many pro wrestler's over here with bright blonde hair. Do you think he can suplex anyone?


----------



## Nigel Burden

Well the good news is that there is a new vaccine available that appears to have a high rate of efficacy. Novovac is an American vaccine manufactured in the UK.

Nigel.


----------



## John Brown

Anyway, this thread was started, as I understand it, because people were experiencing problems bringing stuff into the UK from the EU.
In the interest of balance, can anyone point to any beneficial consequences of leaving that have directly affected them? 
It'd be nice to get some good news.


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> Well no, in our case they took our money and gave us about half of it back.


In the UKs case the Single Market saved more money than we paid.....so we got the funding effectively free.

EU club fee was never a zero sum game


----------



## Fergie 307

Jacob said:


> Can't think of any egregious lies from the remain camp, what did you have in mind? In fact I can't think of much the remain camp actually said. There was a govt leaflet but the general assumption was that remain was a dead cert. Horribly wrong!


Oh come on. We were told that all flights would cease immediately in fact I seem to recall some silly person even suggesting that aircraft leaving the UK would be banned altogether from EU airspace. I can't remember the reason given, something to do with our air traffic controllers not complying with some EU rule or another apparently.
Rolls Royce were going to go bust because they would no longer be able to sell their engines to Airbus. Why an engine sitting in the factory and fully compliant with EU standards the day before Brexit would suddenly not be the day after wasn't explained. Nor was the other small problem, namely that the only other source of engines for them are the likes of GE in the US, not a member of the EU last time I checked, so how could they buy them from them.
Last, but my favourite, was to see the funk Cameron and co got in as the day of judgement approached, and it began to dawn on them that this wasn't going to be the slam dunk they had thought, and they might actually lose. Then we got Osbourne 's speech where he warned solemnly of some kind of immediate economic Armageddon if we do much as voted to leave, much less actually did it. Watch it, it's really funny. Now someone pointed out that the pound did take a big hit the next day. What of course they don't point out, because it's a little inconvenient, is that once the bankers had got over their hissy fit it bounced back again pretty quickly.


----------



## Jacob

"......likening Britons’ post-Brexit status to that of “Chinese tourists”......








Legal experts: Brexit ‘biggest loss of rights in history’


Legal experts: Brexit ‘biggest loss of rights in history’




www.connexionfrance.com


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> Oh please no, not the remainers refrain. How does it go, wring hands, wail " but we were all lied to", repeat.
> For what it's worth I agree we were all lied to. Where I suspect we will differ is that I would say we were lied to in pretty much equal measure by both sides. You will no doubt maintain that only leavers lied, and that everything the remain side put forward was the absolute truth. The reality is that anyone who is prepared to make a decision based upon what they are told by politicians deserves whatever they get. Unfortunately they mostly tell lies. It's not difficult to tell when they're doing it, it you look closely you can see their lips moving.



Brexit campaign by vote Leave and this govt was built on lies, gaslighting, misinformation, populist strategies etc etc.

Brexit was only ever a vehicle for deregulation, disaster capitalism, vested self interest, climate change deniers etc etc......and you can't sell that with honesty.


----------



## Jacob

Fergie 307 said:


> Oh come on. We were told that all flights would cease immediately in fact I seem to recall some silly person even suggesting that aircraft leaving the UK would be banned altogether from EU airspace. I can't remember the reason given, something to do with our air traffic controllers not complying with some EU rule or another apparently.
> Rolls Royce were going to go bust because they would no longer be able to sell their engines to Airbus. Why an engine sitting in the factory and fully compliant with EU standards the day before Brexit would suddenly not be the day after wasn't explained. Nor was the other small problem, namely that the only other source of engines for them are the likes of GE in the US, not a member of the EU last time I checked, so how could they buy them from them.
> Last, but my favourite, was to see the funk Cameron and co got in as the day of judgement approached, and it began to dawn on them that this wasn't going to be the slam dunk they had thought, and they might actually lose. Then we got Osbourne 's speech where he warned solemnly of some kind of immediate economic Armageddon if we do much as voted to leave, much less actually did it. Watch it, it's really funny. Now someone pointed out that the pound did take a big hit the next day. What of course they don't point out, because it's a little inconvenient, is that once the bankers had got over their hissy fit it bounced back again pretty quickly.


Nobody took any notice of daft scare stories like these being wafted about - except of course the brexiters who took the bait of all sorts of other very silly ideas.
The remain view was largely on the positives.
The economic armageddon, if there is to be one , would be sometime after Jan this year, ahead, obviously not back then in 2016


----------



## John Brown

D_W wrote:
"I don't know what chlorinated chicken is, "
Seriously? For someone who appears to know more about what happens in the UK than all the natives combined, I find that hard to believe. But if you are serious, it's a process whereby dead chickens are washed with a chlorine solution, to kill off harmful bacteria. Not in itself a terrible idea, except that opponents of this practice claim that it allows chickens to be raised in less than ideal conditions, which would not be acceptable in the UK. If you have read any UK news feeds in the last two or three years, you stand a good chance of having encountered this story.
Not to be confused with Coronation Chicken, which is a different kettle of fish entirely.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> Nobody took any notice of daft scare stories like these being wafted about - except of course the brexiters who took the bait of all sorts of other very silly ideas.
> The remain view was largely on the positives.
> The economic armageddon, if there is to be one , would be sometime after Jan this year, ahead, obviously not back then in 2016



Wiffle waffle flap flap.

or


----------



## RobinBHM

Fergie 307 said:


> Oh come on. We were told that all flights would cease immediately in fact I seem to recall some silly person even suggesting that aircraft leaving the UK would be banned altogether from EU airspace. I can't remember the reason given, something to do with our air traffic controllers not complying with some EU rule or another apparently.
> Rolls Royce were going to go bust because they would no longer be able to sell their engines to Airbus. Why an engine sitting in the factory and fully compliant with EU standards the day before Brexit would suddenly not be the day after wasn't explained. Nor was the other small problem, namely that the only other source of engines for them are the likes of GE in the US, not a member of the EU last time I checked, so how could they buy them from them.
> Last, but my favourite, was to see the funk Cameron and co got in as the day of judgement approached, and it began to dawn on them that this wasn't going to be the slam dunk they had thought, and they might actually lose. Then we got Osbourne 's speech where he warned solemnly of some kind of immediate economic Armageddon if we do much as voted to leave, much less actually did it. Watch it, it's really funny. Now someone pointed out that the pound did take a big hit the next day. What of course they don't point out, because it's a little inconvenient, is that once the bankers had got over their hissy fit it bounced back again pretty quickly.



I agree project fear was wrong......but there's no equivalence to the 4 years of endless Brexit lies

German car industry
Easiest deal in history
Get back control of borders
Stop immigration
Goods will be cheaper
Get rid of red tape
Get back control of fishing
Global trade
EU will cave in
They need us more than we need them


How are those things going?


----------



## RobinBHM

John Brown said:


> "I don't know what chlorinated chicken is



The term "chlorinated chicken" is more of a media created term to describe lower standards.

It's less about chlorine being used to wash chicken than the lower welfare standards.....and hormones in beef and GM foods.

In my understanding most US producers don't even use chlorine


----------



## Jacob

RobinBHM said:


> I agree project fear was wrong......but there's no equivalence to the 4 years of endless Brexit lies
> 
> German car industry
> Easiest deal in history
> Get back control of borders
> Stop immigration
> Goods will be cheaper
> Get rid of red tape
> Get back control of fishing
> Global trade
> EU will cave in
> They need us more than we need them
> 
> 
> How are those things going?


"Project Fear" was a brexit fiction. It didn't exist, except in the Mail etc.


----------



## John Brown

RobinBHM said:


> The term "chlorinated chicken" is more of a media created term to describe lower standards.
> 
> It's less about chlorine being used to wash chicken than the lower welfare standards.....and hormones in beef and GM foods.
> 
> In my understanding most US producers don't even use chlorine


Hold on a minute! I never said I didn't know what it was! It was D_W...


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> "Project Fear" was a brexit fiction. It didn't exist, except in the Mail etc.


----------



## Fergie 307

sploo said:


> Leave.EU founder Arron Banks: we would 'lead people up the garden path if we had to' on Brexit
> 
> 
> The man who bankrolled the Leave.EU campaign today told a parliamentary inquiry into fake news that he wasn’t averse to leading voters “up the garden path” over Brexit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.standard.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both sides mislead; agreed. Not sure I'd agree with "equal measure".


Ok, I certainly haven't kept a dossier of who told what lies, how many and when. I have neither the time or the interest in doing so. My perception, for what it's worth, is that at the beginning of the campaign the biggest liars were definitely leave. As it progressed the balance changed. As the fateful day drew closer remain started to panic as it became increasingly apparent that things weren't going as expected. They then turned up the lying in a desperate effort to salvage the situation. Since the vote I think there can be little doubt that Boris wins the lying contest, oven ready deal my buttocks. But who was really daft enough to believe that? Could the EU have given us a very favourable deal, yes, there was no physical obstacle to that. Were they ever going to, no. They clearly couldn't give us all the benefits of full membership and waive the membership fee, that would be completely daft from their point of view, and a completely unreasonable expectation from ours. What we have now is something that has enabled the politicians on both sides to strut their stuff and, in their eyes at least, satisfy their respective audiences. What will happen now is that the civil servants on both sides will get to work and tidy up after them as they always do. I remain quite confident that over time things will get tweaked and finessed as necessary, and in a few years time we will probably be left wondering why we made such a song and dance about it.


----------



## John Brown

Arron Banks. Mark Francois. Nigel Farage. Richard Tice. Jacob Rees-Mogg. Dominic Cummings.


----------



## PetePontoValentino

Fergie 307 said:


> Not sure why you should have this problem. I have just taken delivery of a watch from a business in Spain. Other than extra VAT etc no drama whatsoever. Surely the responsibility lies with the seller, they shouldn't have sold you it if they can't ship it.



"We can quote for shipping to UK but unfortunately at the moment due to Brexit, the shippers we use have suspended the service outside the UK for the time being due to the backlog of paperwork entailed." kind of sums it up really


----------



## MikeJhn

I wonder how long all Threads that aren't woodwork specific will turn into a Brexit debate instead of keeping to the subject title.


----------



## Rorschach

Fergie 307 said:


> Oh I don't know, the idea of political and economic stability didn't seem to bother them where the Greeks were concerned.



They have learnt their lesson since then.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> The EU didn't pay for it, they took your money and then gave it back to you and except you to be grateful.


Had to revisit this it kept me awake last night!
It applies to every transaction - go into a pub and "they take your money and give it back to you" (as beer), or a shop, ditto and you come out with the Daily Mail and a loaf of bread. 
It's biblical: is it Jude or Jonah? A sort of miserable blinkered view of everything
Even more chronic when our Jonahs say of something absolutely free e.g. the NHS "no it's not free because somebody else pays for it"
Brexiter psychology - biblical! (in a very negative sort of way)!


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Had to revisit this it kept me awake last night!
> It applies to every transaction - go into a pub and "they take your money and give it back to you" (as beer), or a shop, ditto and you come out with the Daily Mail and a loaf of bread.
> It's biblical: Jude 1:16 NIV: These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. a sort of miserable blinkered view of everything
> Even more chronic when our Jude says e.g. of the NHS "no it's not free because somebody pays for it"
> Brexiter psychology - biblical! (in a very negative sort of way)!



Does the drive belt need tightening?


----------



## RobinBHM

John Brown said:


> Hold on a minute! I never said I didn't know what it was! It was D_W...


I'm sorry.

I should have made it clearer: I certainly wasn't criticising you, just elaborating on the term "chlorinated chicken"


----------



## Jacob

Fergie 307 said:


> ......Could the EU have given us a very favourable deal, yes, there was no physical obstacle to that. Were they ever going to, no. .....


We already had one. Now we haven't.


----------



## Fergie 307

Jacob said:


> We already had one. Now we haven't.


yes but with strings attached that some of us didn't like.


----------



## Fergie 307

Jacob said:


> Nobody took any notice of daft scare stories like these being wafted about - except of course the brexiters who took the bait of all sorts of other very silly ideas.
> The remain view was largely on the positives.
> The economic armageddon, if there is to be one , would be sometime after Jan this year, ahead, obviously not back then in 2016


Ah I see. Remainer lies were just silly ideas that no one took any notice of anyway. Leaver lies on the other hand swayed the poor ignorant public en masse to vote the 'wrong' way. Can you seriously not see how daft that is. And I would remind you that Osbourne promised that there would need to be an emergency budget "within days" of a leave vote in order to mitigate the effects of the chaos that would ensue. Never mind though, not a lie, just another daft remainer scare story that no one will have taken any notice of anyway.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Jacob said:


> Had to revisit this it kept me awake last night!
> It applies to every transaction - go into a pub and "they take your money and give it back to you" (as beer), or a shop, ditto and you come out with the Daily Mail and a loaf of bread.
> It's biblical: is it Jude or Jonah? A sort of miserable blinkered view of everything
> Even more chronic when our Jonahs say of something absolutely free e.g. the NHS "no it's not free because somebody else pays for it"
> Brexiter psychology - biblical! (in a very negative sort of way)!


You should get professional help if what’s been said on the internet keeps you awake at night.


----------



## Fergie 307

PetePontoValentino said:


> "We can quote for shipping to UK but unfortunately at the moment due to Brexit, the shippers we use have suspended the service outside the UK for the time being due to the backlog of paperwork entailed." kind of sums it up really
> [/QUOT
> is the shopper out of interest. None of the major carriers seem to be having these issues





PetePontoValentino said:


> "We can quote for shipping to UK but unfortunately at the moment due to Brexit, the shippers we use have suspended the service outside the UK for the time being due to the backlog of paperwork entailed." kind of sums it up really


Who is the carrier out of interest? None of the major carriers seem to be having these problems.


----------



## Blackswanwood

I just wondered if anyone expects there to be a point in the whole Brexit issue being replayed in this thread where consensus prevails?

Anyone who voted Brexit feels they were right and the current issues will bed in and life will go on. The Remainers see it as a self inflicted wound that will blight us for ever. Anyone saying to someone in the other camp words to the effect of “that’s a fair point” is rarer than rocking horse manure ... I just wondered if anyone expects it to change or just ramble on for ever?


----------



## Jacob

Fergie 307 said:


> Ah I see. Remainer lies were just silly ideas that no one took any notice of anyway. Leaver lies on the other hand swayed the poor ignorant public en masse to vote the 'wrong' way. Can you seriously not see how daft that is. And I would remind you that Osbourne promised that there would need to be an emergency budget "within days" of a leave vote in order to mitigate the effects of the chaos that would ensue. Never mind though, not a lie, just another daft remainer scare story that no one will have taken any notice of anyway.


Remainer "lies" and scares weren't shared by many remainers and were peripheral to the remainer position, which was basically optimistic, forward looking, positive about the benefits of the EU.
The brexit position was/is the opposite; utterly negative, depressive even, xenophobic, hostile, relying on a weird myth of sovereignty, harking back to the empire, massive lies centre stage; oven ready deals etc etc.


----------



## Rorschach

Blackswanwood said:


> I just wondered if anyone expects there to be a point in the whole Brexit issue being replayed in this thread where consensus prevails?
> 
> Anyone who voted Brexit feels they were right and the current issues will bed in and life will go on. The Remainers see it as a self inflicted wound that will blight us for ever. Anyone saying to someone in the other camp words to the effect of “that’s a fair point” is rarer than rocking horse manure ... I just wondered if anyone expects it to change or just ramble on for ever?



It probably won't change.

FWIW I don't necessarily think Brexit is right, it was just right for me and my views, I can also see why it was right to vote remain for others. It may turn out to be a bad decision in which case if we have another referendum and try and re-join then I would vote for that. When I cast my vote I could see the argument from both side but on balance I felt a change was needed, it will probably be a good 10 years before I will be able to make a decision on whether I was right to vote that way or not. Just like voting for a government this is not a permanent decision, after all the vote to remain in the EEC was clearly not permanent either. We did a 40 year experiment and now we are going to try another. Saying we couldn't re-join is nonsense because we could if we wanted to and saying we wouldn't get as good a deal is also nonsense as we have no idea what the situation will be in 10-20 years time, we might get a better deal, or the same deal, you never know and who is to say the EU will still exist in 20 years time? A week is long time in politics, 20 years is several lifetimes by comparison.


----------



## Noho12C

Jacob said:


> It applies to every transaction - go into a pub and "they take your money and give it back to you" (as beer), or a shop, ditto and you come out with the Daily Mail and a loaf of bread.



Do you need to pay to get the Daily Mail ?!


----------



## Jacob

Noho12C said:


> Do you need to pay to get the Daily Mail ?!


Hypothetical. Not me personally I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole!


----------



## John Brown

I expect it to rumble on forever.
Although I do know one person who voted to leave, and soon afterwards decided it was a big mistake, he isn't remotely interested in woodworking.


----------



## sploo

Fergie 307 said:


> What will happen now is that the civil servants on both sides will get to work and tidy up after them as they always do. I remain quite confident that over time things will get tweaked and finessed as necessary, and in a few years time we will probably be left wondering why we made such a song and dance about it.


We (as in "the nation") will definitely get all the paperwork faff sorted out in time, and I'm sure imports and exports from/to the EU will end up being no more onerous than, say, the US. The problem is; that's still far more onerous (and expensive) than it was before - so those additional costs will be permanent. Also permanent are the losses to freedom of movement, the negative impacts to joint funding for research projects, and, assuming the Tories can work it out (now that they're somewhat free of EU influence) a steady degradation of our rights, and likely more selling off of the NHS.


----------



## nabs

Fergie 307 said:


> What will happen now is that the civil servants on both sides will get to work and tidy up after them as they always do. I remain quite confident that over time things will get tweaked and finessed as necessary, and in a few years time we will probably be left wondering why we made such a song and dance about it.


this misses the point that some of these changes are structural and will have a permanent effect on the UK export trade and the supply chains that depend on it. Yes in many cases the costs created by the new trade barriers we have just put up between us and the EU will either be absorbed as reduced profit margins or passed on to consumers as price increases, but the more fundamental change will be to those export business with low margins where EU trade no longer makes sense and to those businesses who lose EU customers because they've conclude it is easier/cheaper to buy from other member states.

We are only just beginning to see the impacts of this huge change and it will have ripple effects for years. The same will happen in reverse as we implement our import controls in July. Last year we did about £20 billion of trade with the EU *per day *so this is quite a big deal.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> Had to revisit this it kept me awake last night!



Sorry to here this.
I'd honestly say that losing sleep for the sake of an internet thread is not worth it.
It's an interesting thread but the true reality is it's just a group of nobodies whinging between themselves.
Your views however well thought, have no impact on anyone else.
Take a break, get some sleep.


----------



## selectortone

John Brown said:


> D_W wrote:
> ....not to be confused with Coronation Chicken, which is a different kettle of fish entirely.


Or Bombay duck. Will no one think of the poor ducks!!


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> Sorry to here this.
> I'd honestly say that losing sleep for the sake of an internet thread is not worth it.
> It's an interesting thread but the true reality is it's just a group of nobodies whinging between themselves.
> Your views however well thought, have no impact on anyone else.
> Take a break, get some sleep.


It was only a few minutes. Once I'd come up with the obvious answer I nodded off! Thanks for your concern, I might just have a little nap later.


----------



## Noel

Fergie 307 said:


> Could the EU have given us a very favourable deal, yes, there was no physical obstacle to that. Were they ever going to, no. They clearly couldn't give us all the benefits of full membership and waive the membership fee, that would be completely daft from their point of view, and a completely unreasonable expectation from ours. What we have now is something that has enabled the politicians on both sides to strut their stuff and, in their eyes at least, satisfy their respective audiences. What will happen now is that the civil servants on both sides will get to work and tidy up after them as they always do. I remain quite confident that over time things will get tweaked and finessed as necessary, and in a few years time we will probably be left wondering why we made such a song and dance about it.



How do you think the EU could " have given us a very favourable deal"? How would that have been possible within the confines of SM/CU/TEU etc?


----------



## McAldo

PetePontoValentino said:


> I have just looked at this thread for the first time as I have shipping issue, however, this is from the UK to Switzerland (not EU). I bought a small item at auction at the start of the week (pocket watch). I have been trying to find a carrier to pack and ship the thing for me. Most are not interested (refusing even to make an offer because of the Brexit situation). It seems the issue at the UK border goes beyond the Brexit change!



Today DPD returned to me a package meant to a friend in Italy, for the second time..
When that happened the first time, one week ago, their customer service were very apologetic and also said there was no reason on file for the parcel to have been stopped before even leaving the UK, and that they were happy to either refund me or pick it up again,
Having opted for the latter, and rated them 1 star on trust pilot pending succesfull delivery, they got back to me explaining that unfortunately the package was being returned once again, and it was a widespread problem related to Brexit, affecting manydeliveries over the last month or so.
However, they also mentioned this should now be solved.
So I am trying again..

The delivery driver for my area is always the same and after the second return apparently assumed I was some trader in the habit to ship defective items


----------



## nabs

Noel said:


> How do you think the EU could " have given us a very favourable deal"? How would that have been possible within the confines of SM/CU/TEU etc?



edit to fix quoting
that's right Noel. The EU gave us exactly the deal Johnson asked for, namely a basic FTA. It was this governments decision to leave both the customs union and the single market, not the EUs.


----------



## McAldo

PetePontoValentino said:


> That is probably the whole reason why the negotiation needed to be so tough. This was not only about Brexit, it needed to (and will) set an example of what will happen when people leave.



That is one way of seeing it, but not necessarily a perfect description of the situation.
When work got in the way of me attending sessions at my turning club, I notified the president that unfortunately it made little sense for me to remain a member.
I was reassured that I would anyway be welcome to attend sessions whenever I could, for a fee at the door, but other activities such as trips to show, socials and similar, were reserved to members only.
If I were a certain kind of person, I could have thought, or even argued, that it was probably some evil ploy to teach me a lesson and encourage other members not to leave the club. People reasoning like that about every day life and ordinary things are rare I think, but in life you meet all sorts.
But how would that reasoning sit with the club members?
They made the club so to help each other, enjoy each other company, and access activities that would be very hard to organize on a regular basis as a bunch of unconnected woodworkers.
Of course the implications of that is also that the benefits are only for members. And that the activities work accordingly to the club. I cannot have my own favourite time for demonstrations, restrict them to bowls work only, demand that it all reflects my own spin on woodturning.
And if I demand for my suggestions to be heard as a non member, that might well fall on deaf ears.
But does that really happen because I am being punished? 
Are we, non members, the very center of the club's concerns?

I found it interesting that, when applying so called common sense to their normal life, activities and social activities, people come up with conclusions completely different than their opinion about politics, international trade and so forth.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Noel said:


> I hear Amazon are going to open a fulfilment facility somewhere, did you hear where Mark? Amazon.ie ?


Amazon eyeing first fulfilment centre in Dublin got announced this morning...


----------



## D_W

McAldo said:


> Today DPD returned to me a package meant to a friend in Italy, for the second time..
> When that happened the first time, one week ago, their customer service were very apologetic and also said there was no reason on file for the parcel to have been stopped before even leaving the UK, and that they were happy to either refund me or pick it up again,
> Having opted for the latter, and rated them 1 star on trust pilot pending succesfull delivery, they got back to me explaining that unfortunately the package was being returned once again, and it was a widespread problem related to Brexit, affecting manydeliveries over the last month or so.
> However, they also mentioned this should now be solved.
> So I am trying again..
> 
> The delivery driver for my area is always the same and after the second return apparently assumed I was some trader in the habit to ship defective items



Sounds like they had some problem and didn't want to admit it, so they blamed it on brexit.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Rorschach said:


> Last time I checked the UK government doesn't stick signs on roads saying they paid for them. I know my government pays for stuff, that's where my taxes go.


That is an amount of faith most Irish people do not possess about their government. 
We have learned over the years that taxes are money and money has a habit of not always going to where we think it needs to go for projects that make our lives better. 

Also, the whole "they took your money and gave it back to you and expect you to feel grateful" idea is a category error. The point of the signs is not to say "the germans and french and british and italians paid for your road" (though that's true, because EU structural funding is a bootstrap process which caters to people who don't have boots), the point is to say "these are the projects we prioritise, this is what we do", in comparison to some of our leaders who can point to vast private estates owned by leaders who were not being paid enough money to buy those estates when asked about their priorities.


----------



## Droogs

Rorschach said:


> It probably won't change.
> 
> FWIW I don't necessarily think Brexit is right, it was just right for me and my views, I can also see why it was right to vote remain for others. It may turn out to be a bad decision in which case if we have another referendum and try and re-join then I would vote for that. When I cast my vote I could see the argument from both side but on balance I felt a change was needed, it will probably be a good 10 years before I will be able to make a decision on whether I was right to vote that way or not. Just like voting for a government this is not a permanent decision, after all the vote to remain in the EEC was clearly not permanent either. We did a 40 year experiment and now we are going to try another. Saying we couldn't re-join is nonsense because we could if we wanted to and saying we wouldn't get as good a deal is also nonsense as we have no idea what the situation will be in 10-20 years time, we might get a better deal, or the same deal, you never know and who is to say the EU will still exist in 20 years time? A week is long time in politics, 20 years is several lifetimes by comparison.



Very commendable Rorschach, of course to say this island couldn't rejoin is nonsense. So is you next sentence, no member of the EU will allow this country to rejoin and wield the same level of obstructionist power that we just relinquished. We will never be given a veto power within the EU ever again, it is not worth the problems caused to everyone else as our past and present behaviour has emphatically proven. Also given recent events, I would postulate that it in fact more likely that the UK will not exist in 20 years time as two of its constituent parts have a population that is increasing in size as more of the young come to voting age, that the standard belief is it will be better to either be independant and an EU member for the scots and to possibly also reunifiy for the N. Irish. The political structure within the provences even though deliberately designed to deny that coming majority a voice will not be able to stop it. Brexit will be its catalyst and its champion.

I say the above with a very heavy heart as I have been a staunch unionist my entire life. No more, recent events have totally stripped me of all belief in the UKs greatest lie prermeated at all levels "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori". Or to go hungry for or to go naked for or to go peniless for and above all to suffer for the lies of swindlers, theives and liars.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> It was only a few minutes. Once I'd come up with the obvious answer I nodded off! Thanks for your concern, I might just have a little nap later.



Can the nurses in the facility give you some medication, or try and bribe the security guard to get you something. Those secure facilities for nutters are rife with underhand transactions


----------



## RobinBHM

selectortone said:


> Or Bombay duck. Will no one think of the poor ducks!!


Bombay duck was banned by the EU back in 1977

Now there's a potential Brexit bonus......we can now eat something called a duck that is actually more akin to the health standards of road kill


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> Sorry to here this.
> I'd honestly say that losing sleep for the sake of an internet thread is not worth it.
> It's an interesting thread but the true reality is it's just a group of nobodies whinging between themselves.
> Your views however well thought, have no impact on anyone else.
> Take a break, get some sleep.



I can't help thinking Jacob has a full size effigy of Corbyn in his bedroom.....with a plaque on the base with the inscription "we almost won"


----------



## MarkDennehy

> Your views however well thought, have no impact on anyone else.


I mean, to a point. The price of food in my country is going to go up because of a vote in yours and votes follow views so to say there's *no* impact on anyone else is just not true. It's an aggregate effect, certainly, but avalanches are just lots and lots and lots of tiny little snowflakes in aggregate, and they'll kill you dead as a dodo with ease, so don't discount aggregates. 

Especially since your bridge will collapse if you don't pay attention to the aggregate


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> Can the nurses in the facility give you some medication, or try and bribe the security guard to get you something. Those secure facilities for nutters are rife with underhand transactions


They give me everything I ask for. They even keep the mini bar topped up 24/7. 
They want me to stay because I help them out, especially the brexit cases on Farage ward. I've got them thinking they are on a woodwork forum and I only have to talk about sharpening or scrub planes to get them calmed down and fixated, and they stop playing with themselves for a bit.
Going now, nurse says it time for another massage. It's never ending.


----------



## Fergie 307

Jacob said:


> Remainer "lies" and scares weren't shared by many remainers and were peripheral to the remainer position, which was basically optimistic, forward looking, positive about the benefits of the EU.
> The brexit position was/is the opposite; utterly negative, depressive even, xenophobic, hostile, relying on a weird myth of sovereignty, harking back to the empire, massive lies centre stage; oven ready deals etc etc.
> [/QUOTE
> Why do you assume that the brexit lies were shared by all who voted to leave? Not me I assure you. I found stuff on both sides utterly cringeworthy, like a bunch of five year olds throwing toys at each other over the sandpit.


----------



## McAldo

D_W said:


> Sounds like they had some problem and didn't want to admit it, so they blamed it on brexit.



Why would it sound like that though?
This is a delivery by road, and accordingly to the government there are major delays in Dover.


----------



## D_W

Delays usually result in something arriving late. Why would it result in a return? We have no brexit here, but plenty mailing delays, especially due to covid rates and different countries' reactions to them. No air ems from Japan, for example (though all of the private delivery companies continue to work in and out of there by air).


----------



## D_W

Jacob said:


> They give me everything I ask for. They even keep the mini bar topped up 24/7.
> They want me to stay because I help them out, especially the brexit cases on Farage ward. I've got them thinking they are on a woodwork forum and I only have to talk about sharpening or scrub planes to get them calmed down and fixated, and they stop playing with themselves for a bit.
> Going now, nurse says it time for another massage. It's never ending.



Don't forget about your posts where you said activists blocking some random lady's front door were in the right because imminent climate disaster was more urgent than her need to go to work. That one was funny. I sure hope it was kayfabe.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> Going now, nurse says it time for another massage. It's never ending.



Be careful, those male nurses have a very strong grip.


----------



## sploo

MarkDennehy said:


> I mean, to a point. The price of food in my country is going to go up because of a vote in yours and votes follow views so to say there's *no* impact on anyone else is just not true.


Let us off this time though. I mean, England has _never_ done anything bad for ROI before has it.

(I'll get my coat)


----------



## Jacob

The one single most dominating brexit theme was control of our borders and keeping foreigners out, on the assumption that they were deflating wages and inflating house prices. Can we assume that there will be massive corrections to farm wages as the season gets going and that rents and house prices will come tumbling down?


----------



## Jacob

D_W said:


> Don't forget about your posts where you said activists blocking some random lady's front door were in the right because imminent climate disaster was more urgent than her need to go to work. That one was funny. I sure hope it was kayfabe.


Er, I don't recall that, do you have a link?
Would you like to talk about scrub planes?


----------



## boggy

I live in France and have tried to place orders with British seed suppliers and have been informed that orders from the EU are not being accepted owing to Brexit. There are 17 M&S food stores around Paris which have empty shelves owing to Brexit regs.


----------



## RobinBHM

Blackswanwood said:


> I just wondered if anyone expects there to be a point in the whole Brexit issue being replayed in this thread where consensus prevails?
> 
> Anyone who voted Brexit feels they were right and the current issues will bed in and life will go on. The Remainers see it as a self inflicted wound that will blight us for ever. Anyone saying to someone in the other camp words to the effect of “that’s a fair point” is rarer than rocking horse manure ... I just wondered if anyone expects it to change or just ramble on for ever?



"thats a fair point"

  



joking aside, Its an interesting point, I personally think division will increase this year and probably next. I can see it calming down in 2022 / 2023 a bit but will then get reignited as campaigning starts on the next election.

currently support for brexit has been boosted by UKs vaccine roll out, but give it 18 months when thats forgotten and people will start to get fed up with brexit damage, especially if theyve lost their business or jobs, then we will see support for brexit dwindling.

lets also remember a lot of youngsters have been made eligible to vote since 2016....and they will be more pro EU.


----------



## D_W

RobinBHM said:


> "thats a fair point"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joking aside, Its an interesting point, I personally think division will increase this year and probably next. I can see it calming down in 2022 / 2023 a bit but will then get reignited as campaigning starts on the next election.
> 
> currently support for brexit has been boosted by UKs vaccine roll out, but give it 18 months when thats forgotten and people will start to get fed up with brexit damage, especially if theyve lost their business or jobs, then we will see support for brexit dwindling.
> 
> lets also remember a lot of youngsters have been made eligible to vote since 2016....and they will be more pro EU.



Not to mention the bias to always favor what you don't have, because you can't poke holes in the negative things going on with something that's not in place to poke at. 

The bias in elections or referendums that are about even odds will always be against whatever is in place because it's a false argument. You're arguing about something practical that's in place and what could be is an ideal. We are starting to go through the same thing here in the US already. 

We were relieved to see trump voted out. The news is abuzz already with policy discussion that got trump voted in in the first place. It'll probably take less than two years for people to have a major change of heart (the ones in the center who swing the vote). If there's a substantial tax increase of any type, it will be almost automatic.


----------



## Daniel2

boggy said:


> I live in France and have tried to place orders with British seed suppliers and have been informed that orders from the EU are not being accepted owing to Brexit. There are 17 M&S food stores around Paris which have empty shelves owing to Brexit regs.



I also live in France.
Tried to place an order the other day, with Machine Mart.
I was told that I need to provide them with an EORI (?), number before they can ship and, in addition,
they could not advise if I would need to pay any import duty.
Suffice to say, for a private individual, that's just too complicated and financially risky, so I simply won't
bother. How many others, I wonder, are facing similar issues ?
BTW, has anyone yet come up with any tangible positive aspects to this debacle so passionately voted for ?


----------



## sploo

D_W said:


> Not to mention the bias to always favor what you don't have, because you can't poke holes in the negative things going on with something that's not in place to poke at.


"Change" is always a vote winner.

That said - I remember an interesting news piece here in the UK a few years back where they interviewed a number of people from strong Trump supporting areas (areas with low income/high unemployment). The angle of their questioning was essentially about how people felt now that Trump was in power, but hadn't really delivered on his populist election promises (and hadn't really changed anything for them). Were they angry? Well, no, not really - they felt disenfranchised by "government" anyway (which was why they voted for Trump in the first place). Even those who weren't still supportive of him weren't that bothered because they kinda expected to get nothing from those in power - so they weren't surprised to get nothing.

I do think there are some parallels in the UK with Brexit; there was strong support in areas where people feel disenfranchised, and, rightly or wrongly, feel that jobs have been lost to immigration. They'll get nothing from Brexit; except maybe further reduced working rights due to changes the Conservatives will now implement. You'd hope they'd be angry with those that conned them, but I doubt that'll happen.


----------



## RobinBHM

D_W said:


> We were relieved to see trump voted out. The news is abuzz already with policy discussion that got trump voted in in the first place. It'll probably take less than two years for people to have a major change of heart (the ones in the center who swing the vote). If there's a substantial tax increase of any type, it will be almost automatic.



I dont know enough about US politics to know really. It seems to me the presidential system means only the super rich get to be president. Do they represent about the average Joe? -I would guess the system works like here -the richest corporations give the biggest political donations in exchange for policy influence...........not much democracy there. I would guess that happens with both Democrats and Republicans.

I get the impression US lobby groups have discovered they can get access to UK MPs for a fraction of the price of the USA. Hence we have the Koch foundation giving money to brexit propaganda sites which in turn give money to MPs.


----------



## Woody2Shoes

RobinBHM said:


> "thats a fair point"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joking aside, Its an interesting point, I personally think division will increase this year and probably next. I can see it calming down in 2022 / 2023 a bit but will then get reignited as campaigning starts on the next election.
> 
> ......
> 
> lets also remember a lot of youngsters have been made eligible to vote since 2016....and they will be more pro EU.


That, and proportionally more of the crusty old gits who pushed brexit over the line will have shuffled off this mortal coil - from covid or something else...


----------



## Noel

Dear Irony.
Wouldn't it be so ironic if the DUP leader, who feels very, very British and supported Brexit made a request for military support to help with the rollout of the C19 vaccination found out that before any military folk go to NI from GB that they have to fill in customs forms, give 15 days notice and inform NATO in Brussels of their movements and fill in NATO form 302.


----------



## Droogs

Ah the good old movement order. This is got round usually by most forces who have to visit lots of different areas of the alliance having an indefinate moverment order in their wallet. I carried the same one round for 9 years before I had to get a new one stamped. Was awesome meant i didn't need a passport for the most part as well except gibraltar, needed my passport to go through spain into gib


----------



## Noel

Droogs said:


> Ah the good old movement order. This is got round usually by most forces who have to visit lots of different areas of the alliance having an indefinate moverment order in their wallet. I carried the same one round for 9 years before I had to get a new one stamped. Was awesome meant i didn't need a passport for the most part as well except gibraltar, needed my passport to go through spain into gib



Can you imagine if something kicked off in NI and they needed military support...
Right, call the army. 
Right sir.
When will they be here, 24 hrs, 48hrs?
Ah, might be a bit of a delay. Should be here in a fortnight, maybe longer. Paperwork you see, bit of a pipper. 

I'm sure it'll be sorted at some stage but could you make it up?


----------



## Droogs

in emergencies a signal is usually sent with "paperwork to follow". most customs guards don't argue if you turn up at the barrier with 155mm gun pointing at them, unless they are Danish in which case they insist on checking you haven't got bottles of vodka/fags or porn hidden down the barrel


----------



## Blackswanwood

RobinBHM said:


> "thats a fair point"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joking aside, Its an interesting point, I personally think division will increase this year and probably next. I can see it calming down in 2022 / 2023 a bit but will then get reignited as campaigning starts on the next election.
> 
> currently support for brexit has been boosted by UKs vaccine roll out, but give it 18 months when thats forgotten and people will start to get fed up with brexit damage, especially if theyve lost their business or jobs, then we will see support for brexit dwindling.
> 
> lets also remember a lot of youngsters have been made eligible to vote since 2016....and they will be more pro EU.


You could well be right. I hope it will not be the case but I agree with the view put forward by @Droogs that there an increased probability that the UK will split. 

One factor is in my view how the EU evolves now we have left. Poland and Hungary seem to have an outlook that could be troublesome and (while I voted to remain) some aspects that the leave campaign exploited had substance and need to be addressed. 

I do hope saying that doesn’t mean I now get shot by both sides!


----------



## Rorschach

I also agree that I think Brexit made a split of the UK more likely (though I think it was fairly likely before that). Personally I don't hold any strong unionist feelings. If the Scots want to go it alone, I wish them the best. I think however it would be a terribly bad idea unless their first act is to vote out the SNP who are wholly incompetent to run a country.

What does confuse me though is the wish to become an independent country, and then join the EU (if allowed, which is unlikely) who would offer a terrible deal and they would be swapping Westminster overlord for Brussels overlords with Scotland having much less power. Very strange, but not my choice.


----------



## Noel

Blackswanwood said:


> You could well be right. I hope it will not be the case but I agree with the view put forward by @Droogs that there an increased probability that the UK will split.
> 
> One factor is in my view how the EU evolves now we have left. Poland and Hungary seem to have an outlook that could be troublesome and (while I voted to remain) some aspects that the leave campaign exploited had substance and need to be addressed.
> 
> I do hope saying that doesn’t mean I now get shot by both sides!


. 

Indeed, the road to UK split up seems to certainly have been shortened. As well as Scotland don’t forget NI although I suspect many in GB will be happy to see the back of the wee place. At least guaranteed to be full member of EU.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Of course if the UK does break up we have our Prime Minister for the Independent Republic of Yorkshire lined up ready ...


----------



## Droogs

@Blackswanwood I don't think any remainer ever denied that the EU just like most organisations is not perfect and needs areas improved but for them the best way to get improvements is from within through consensus, not by throwing your teddy out the pram and then running away from home. Unfortunately the case of the UK gov'mint is they are not willing to listen at all


----------



## Blackswanwood

Noel said:


> .
> 
> Indeed, the road to UK split up seems to certainly have been shortened. As well as Scotland don’t forget NI although I suspect many in GB will be happy to see the back of the wee place. At least guaranteed to be full member of EU.


Indeed - although I guess that would have some very difficult and sensitive issues to overcome Noel.


----------



## sploo

Droogs said:


> ... unless they are Danish in which case they insist on checking you haven't got bottles of vodka/fags or porn hidden down the barrel


That's just specific enough that I have to assume it's a real anecdote


----------



## Noel

Blackswanwood said:


> Indeed - although I guess that would have some very difficult and sensitive issues to overcome Noel.


. 

Difficult and sensitive would be accurate, perhaps considerably worse. The actual process of re-unification is relatively straightforward (all island vote as per GFA), the practical issues (health etc) would be challenging but the reluctance, plain and literal “not over my dead body” attitude from some factions (many who are armed) could prove, to put it mildly, a return to the darker days.
There have been signs of a softening by those that would be traditionally against an all Ireland due to Brexit and the manner in which others decide the future, constitutionally and otherwise, of the place (not much changed there in the past 800 years). The border planted in the Irish Sea this past few weeks is causing many difficulties and a small number are threatening civil disobedience (of the NI flavour) but that hopefully will come to nothing.
Would the south even want the place? A lot of baggage to pile on that particular train if it ever leaves the station. 
Independence? Unlikely, NI gets 12bn of your hard earned a year just to stand still.
One answer might be some sort of entity like San Marino or Andorra supported by London and Dublin. A proper gateway to the EU and GB.

Hard to know what exactly will happen but as said, Brexit has shortened the road to some change, just hope it produces some stability and, above all, removes any threat to a rather at times wobbly peace process.


----------



## Jonm

Woody2Shoes said:


> That, and proportionally more of the crusty old gits who pushed brexit over the line will have shuffled off this mortal coil - from covid or something else...


The demographics are that age group 45-54 year olds voted remain 44%, leave 54%. So by your definition anyone aged 45 and over is a “crusty old git”.

Perhaps if more of the not “crusty old gits” had bothered to take the trouble to vote then we would not be in this mess.


----------



## Jonm

Jonm said:


> The demographics are that age group 45-54 year olds voted remain 44%, leave 54%. So by your definition anyone aged 45 and over is a “crusty old git”.
> 
> Perhaps if more of the not “crusty old gits” had bothered to take the trouble to vote then we would not be in this mess.


That should be “leave 56%”


----------



## Droogs

2% spoiled ballots or no shows perhaps


----------



## Jonm

Droogs said:


> in emergencies a signal is usually sent with "paperwork to follow". most customs guards don't argue if you turn up at the barrier with 155mm gun pointing at them, unless they are Danish in which case they insist on checking you haven't got bottles of vodka/fags or porn hidden down the barrel


The dutch customs would insist on checking the sandwiches of the gun crew for “meat and dairy products”.


----------



## Jonm

Being outside of the EU I would like to see VAT abolished and a return to Purchase Tax. For those who are too young to remember, it was a tax paid on “luxury“ items. It wad collected once at point of sale, so the tax was paid once. VAT requires every company with a turnover of £85k or more, to file vat returns. I mage the cost savings for companies not having to to do all this paperwork. Only retailers would be involved and the greatly reduced number of taxable transactions would be easier to police for fraud.


----------



## doctor Bob

Noel or anyone from NI, I'm curious as to what your feelings are with whats happening with the border (article 16).


----------



## Jonm

doctor Bob said:


> Noel or anyone from NI, I'm curious as to what your feelings are with whats happening with the border (article 16).


Just been announced on bbc news that EU have backtracked on this.


----------



## John Brown

I'm a crusty old git, and I took the trouble to vote.


----------



## D_W

Jonm said:


> Being outside of the EU I would like to see VAT abolished and a return to Purchase Tax. For those who are too young to remember, it was a tax paid on “luxury“ items. It wad collected once at point of sale, so the tax was paid once. VAT requires every company with a turnover of £85k or more, to file vat returns. I mage the cost savings for companies not having to to do all this paperwork. Only retailers would be involved and the greatly reduced number of taxable transactions would be easier to police for fraud.



Way too practical. I'd guess the VAT generates far more revenue than the purchase tax did (that type of tax is in place here in the states). 

But our state and federal governments don't really care about paperwork. There's gobs of it, even if it may be less than the volume done in the UK, and they have the gall to describe with each official document how said doc meets the requirements made under the "paperwork reduction act".


----------



## doctor Bob

Jonm said:


> Just been announced on bbc news that EU have backtracked on this.



It seems a right balls up. Apparantly the newspapers in Germany and a few other countries are ripping them a new ar$eehole.
Other sites are just saying if remainers want a second referendum lets have it then.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> It seems a right balls up. Apparantly the newspapers in Germany and a few other countries are ripping them a new ar$eehole.
> Other sites are just saying if remainers want a second referendum lets have it then.


Certainly looks like a significant own goal on the part of whichever EU bodies decided it was a good idea. Even if they've done it for practical/pragmatic reasons it sets a dangerous precedent that will fuel those opposed to the EU, and give the UK government a convenient excuse to also abuse article 16.


----------



## Peterm1000

Fergie 307 said:


> Well no, in our case they took our money and gave us about half of it back.



I think that's a false understanding... It was less than 1% of taxpayer's tax bills. For most people it was about £1 a week. An amount that is quickly exceeded if you ever want to import anything (the original purpose of this thread). People pay £15 a month for a bank account that gives them free travel insurance and AA cover. The £1 a week was an absolute bargain - the right to work anywhere in the EU, to transport as much booze or cigs as you wanted for a fraction of the cost in the UK, the right to come and go to the EU whenever you wanted. One booze cruise to Calais and you've easily covered the £50 EU membership cost you a year.

Oh and by the way, high tax payers (who footed the majority of that EU tax) were very clearly for Remain and support for Leave was much higher amongst non-tax payers. Support for Leave declined substantially as household earnings increased. So actually, for a very significant number of Leave voters it wasn't "our money" that was being taken at all.


----------



## doctor Bob

I wonder what wee Jimmy Krankie is making of it all. I bet she's packing her fireworks away and having a rethink.

Looks like the EU have done more to unit opposing factions within the UK in 24hrs than any UK polititian or political party has done in 4 years.


----------



## Jake

Terrible messaging for a UK audience, but we are a third country. Also no angels in this. Our use of the emergency approvals process meant we grabbed the available doses from the Dutch production facilities because the UK ones we basically paid for with advance payments and grants aren't on stream until December (of this year). And AZ have told the EU their supply has to be throttled because their partner's new Belgian site isn't producing as well as they hoped, while promising us that our full order will be filled from the EU sites, which the EU also pre-funded with advance payments.

None of this will trouble the jingoist press and its groupie-think followers.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> Terrible messaging for a UK audience, but we are a third country. Also no angels in this. Our use of the emergency approvals process meant we grabbed the available doses from the Dutch production facilities because the UK ones we basically paid for with advance payments and grants aren't on stream until December (of this year). And AZ have told the EU their supply has to be throttled because their partner's new Belgian site isn't producing as well as they hoped, while promising us that our full order will be filled from the EU sites, which the EU also pre-funded with advance payments.



Damage done Jake. EU tweets doing blame game. European Press ripping them to pieces. Terrible 24hrs for EU.


----------



## Jake

It was pretty a stupid escalation of words for sure. I'd put a bet on them having got a quiet assurance from our govt before backing off though.


----------



## artie

doctor Bob said:


> Noel or anyone from NI, I'm curious as to what your feelings are with whats happening with the border (article 16).


Sorry.
I don't do soap operas


----------



## Noel

doctor Bob said:


> Noel or anyone from NI, I'm curious as to what your feelings are with whats happening with the border (article 16).



A mess.
Arlene on R4 complaining about it. Ironic that her party has been calling to invoke A16 past few weeks.....
Of course her party was in the minority pushing Brexit, collapsing May’s backstop, thrown under the bus by Johnson and now boo hooing “it’s not fair, big boys did it..”.


----------



## Rorschach

The EU showed their hand on the vaccine row right away because they made a big song and dance about it and appealed to moral principles for AZ. You know as soon as someone does this that they are on shaky legal ground and they made a mistake and are trying to cover it up
If they had been confident in their contract they would have simply instructed the lawyers (they have enough of them) and AZ would have quickly capitulated. 

Our handling of the vaccine acquisition and roll out is a definite benefit of Brexit, though of course I realise that is a complete fluke.


----------



## Jester129

Rorschach said:


> They have learnt their lesson since then.


Really, they have not. Look at the headlines today about the vaccine 'war'!


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> It was pretty a stupid escalation of words for sure. I'd put a bet on them having got a quiet assurance from our govt before backing off though.


Maybe, but like I say damage is done.


----------



## Rorschach

Jester129 said:


> Really, they have not. Look at the headlines today about the vaccine 'war'!



I am confused, you have taken my quote completely out of context.


----------



## doctor Bob

Noel said:


> A mess.
> Arlene on R4 complaining about it. Ironic that her party has been calling to invoke A16 past few weeks.....
> Of course her party was in the minority pushing Brexit, collapsing May’s backstop, thrown under the bus by Johnson and now boo hooing “it’s not fair, big boys did it..”.


Is that it Noel, bit thin on the ground compared to the normal 3000 word essay. doesn't really help explain the situation from your prospective.
Are you excusing the EU (a mess), but still having a dig at others (Arlene on R4 blah, blah .......)
Must be painful.......

Also to quote Robin, classic whataboutary.


----------



## McAldo

D_W said:


> Delays usually result in something arriving late. Why would it result in a return? We have no brexit here, but plenty mailing delays, especially due to covid rates and different countries' reactions to them. No air ems from Japan, for example (though all of the private delivery companies continue to work in and out of there by air).



DPD was not clear about the reasons but, quoting from their reply:

" I cannot apologise enough about the problems with delivery. I'm afraid we are seeing quite a lot of problems with parcels being exported to Europe at the moment, as a result of the Brexit changes, which is why your parcel has been returned to sender.

I appreciate how frustrating this must be, and I'm so sorry that your parcel is again showing as on its way back to the return address. I believe that the issue that caused this has now been resolved, but if you'd prefer for us to refund your order in light of the problems I understand entirely, and can of course arrange this for you once you've received the parcel back. "

So, I am sending it for the third time, hoping the "issues", whatever they were, are now solved.

Regarding delays only producing delays in delivery, rather than returns, this might well depend on the courier.
DPD-local is the cheapest option to send to the EU, at least as a normal customer booking door to door collection for single parcels.
Other options cost upwards of 60% more. The difference was even more pronouced before January, with Royal Mail charging £65 for the same parcel DPD-local woud deliver for £19 or so.

Delays are not going to be cost free to the courier. Keeping a truck stuck in Dover for an undetermined number of hours or days means paying for the driver time and other associated expenses, while jeoparding the logistics. The delay might be determined by government priorities putting parcels ike mine at the very botto of the queue for custom checks and other procedures. Keeping the package at the depot awaiting also cost money because contingency space runs out quickly, and getting an extra warehouse is a long term investment.

So, some cheap couriers might find it less expensive to simply return the parcel and offer to refund. After all their local warehouses and drivers are not paid extra to do that, or very litte more compared to the alternatives. It should be said that they only did something about it when I chased them aggressively, it is not like I received any explanation or refund offers upon receiving it back. 
Which again points to costs saving, the less people asks for a refund or a rebooking imediately, the less manageable it all becomes for the company.


----------



## doctor Bob

Now there is talk of the EU invoking emergency powers of article 122, basically means they want to take total control of AZ, occupation of a private company, taking interlectual rights and control of the factories.
Looks like they really want to make a proper mess of it.


----------



## doctor Bob

I suspect a quiet day on the thread....................


----------



## RobinBHM

Whilst EUs vaccine balls up is a goal for Brexiters.....damage caused by leaving the Single Market rolls on.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> Whilst EUs vaccine balls up is a goal for Brexiters.....damage caused by leaving the Single Market rolls on.



Surely it's an own goal, not just a deflection but UvdL, picked up the ball in defence passed it to half her brexit team, dribbled around her team mates and scored a cracking goal. Celebrated for 2 hrs and then realised that no one was cheering, thought about it for a few more hours and then told everyone it wasn't a goal and that she hadn't meant to shot from 20 yards out and that it was a ball boy encouraging her which made the oversight happen.
Now she is invoking article 122, which basically means she is taking ownership of the pitch and goalposts and football, and she will go home, for tea, if no one likes it.
She's been in charge of the team for 3 days, maybe 4, and she's lost the fans already.


----------



## Jake

It looks like the EU misread the strength of their contractual hand vs AZ. Interesting argument because AZ promised them it had no prior contractual obligations which would prevent impede hinder it from fulfilling its supply obligations to the EU. As AZ had a 'best endeavours' duty (really high) to fulfill supply schedule to the EU I think the Commission read that as cast iron and that AZ would be in breach if they didn't at least throttle UK supplies proportionally to the throttle on UK supplies (which has been their ask for weeks)

But I think that's wrong, as best endeavours do not oblige you to breach obligations to third parties. So the prior agreement with the UK did not prevent hinder etc AZ from using Its best endeavours, it just had already reduced the scope of what it could with best endeavours at the time it contracted with the EU.

As for the row generally, picture the reverse. All AZ production is in the UK and and we paid for a new factory which is struggling but the EU is refusing to accept a proportional cut in supply, with the effect that the UK is shorter of supply than the EU despite it all being produced in the UK. I think I know how jingoists woukd paint that one, and I am absolutely sure this UK government would be threatening all sorts of emergency measures.


----------



## InTheHighlands

Jake said:


> It looks like the EU misread the strength of their contractual hand vs AZ. Interesting argument because AZ promised them it had no prior contractual obligations which would prevent impede hinder it from fulfilling its supply obligations to the EU. As AZ had a 'best endeavours' duty (really high) to fulfill supply schedule to the EU I think the Commission read that as cast iron and that AZ would be in breach if they didn't at least throttle UK supplies proportionally to the throttle on UK supplies (which has been their ask for weeks)
> 
> But I think that's wrong, as best endeavours do not oblige you to breach obligations to third parties. So the prior agreement with the UK did not prevent hinder etc AZ from using Its best endeavours, it just had already reduced the scope of what it could with best endeavours at the time it contracted with the EU.
> 
> As for the row generally, picture the reverse. All AZ production is in the UK and and we paid for a new factory which is struggling but the EU is refusing to accept a proportional cut in supply, with the effect that the UK is shorter of supply than the EU despite it all being produced in the UK. I think I know how jingoists woukd paint that one, and I am absolutely sure this UK government would be threatening all sorts of emergency measures.


I've read the contract - and, from a previous life, am used to reading such things........

It looks to me that the EU are pointing at Clause 5.4, where the UK factories are mentioned. There's room for some ambiguity, but my reading of 5.4 is that it's a clause put in by the EU seeking AZ's Best Endeavours to manufacture IN the EU (presumably because of confidence in standards and/or to keep the money spent locally) and they state that the UK factories will be deemed to satisfy this requirement. It's NOT a clause focussed on manufacturing FOR the EU.

The clause goes on to say that the EU will try to help find alternative manufacturing sites in the EU in the event of production problems etc. And then goes on to say how they will approve sites outside the EU if all else fails.

The EU seem to be misrepresenting the contract..........


----------



## doctor Bob

Jake said:


> It looks like the EU misread the strength of their contractual hand vs AZ. Interesting argument because AZ promised them it had no prior contractual obligations which would prevent impede hinder it from fulfilling its supply obligations to the EU. As AZ had a 'best endeavours' duty (really high) to fulfill supply schedule to the EU I think the Commission read that as cast iron and that AZ would be in breach if they didn't at least throttle UK supplies proportionally to the throttle on UK supplies (which has been their ask for weeks)
> 
> But I think that's wrong, as best endeavours do not oblige you to breach obligations to third parties. So the prior agreement with the UK did not prevent hinder etc AZ from using Its best endeavours, it just had already reduced the scope of what it could with best endeavours at the time it contracted with the EU.
> 
> As for the row generally, picture the reverse. All AZ production is in the UK and and we paid for a new factory which is struggling but the EU is refusing to accept a proportional cut in supply, with the effect that the UK is shorter of supply than the EU despite it all being produced in the UK. I think I know how jingoists woukd paint that one, and I am absolutely sure this UK government would be threatening all sorts of emergency measures.


Just classic whataboutary Jake, as Robin would say.


----------



## Noel

doctor Bob said:


> Is that it Noel, bit thin on the ground compared to the normal 3000 word essay. doesn't really help explain the situation from your prospective.
> Are you excusing the EU (a mess), but still having a dig at others (Arlene on R4 blah, blah .......)
> Must be painful.......



Little point, you've no interest in NI/Ireland or the island's welfare. 
BTW, your post about A122 seem to reflect, almost word for word the misinformation spouted by the DT/Express and the likes of Bridgen, O'Neill etc.


In the meantime can I recommend:


----------



## doctor Bob

Noel said:


> Little point, you've no interest in NI/Ireland or the island's welfare.



Very well argued Noel, although you come accross as a tad bitter, and your arguement never stopped you in the past. Sounds like you've taken your football home as well, come on dont be a ......








Last time a thread went like this, you lot got miffed, and the thread was closed down. 

Come on Noel, stop pouting.


----------



## doctor Bob

Noel said:


> BTW, your post about A122 seem to reflect, almost word for word the misinformation spouted by the DT/Express and the likes of Bridgen, O'Neill etc.



or any daily paper, radio station, TV, internet forum, twitter, mate it's all over the news, just watch TV.


----------



## doctor Bob

Noel said:


> In the meantime can I recommend:



Thanks I'll give them a go, have you tried sour grapes?


----------



## doctor Bob

Noel, hats off mate, at least you did a half hearted reply.
The rest of the Tuffty gang has gone into hiding ......................

Anyway just for old times sake this will make you chuckle, seeing as how UVdL is headlining the gig at present



May put up a Diane Abbott video for Jacob, too early at the moment.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> or any daily paper, radio station, TV, internet forum, twitter, mate it's all over the news, just watch TV.


I'm sure it is, and I'll bet the Mail/Express/Der Stürmer are having an absolute field day.

I wonder how vocal they were when the UK government was threatening to break international law?

Whataboutery, sure, but it is rather amusing how big a deal this (temporary, poor PR) EU screw up is, vs the continual deception of Boris and co, the lining of their mates' pockets with PPE contracts, and the small fact that the root issue of an NI/ROI trade border has been created by Boris et al in the first place. But they're rather quiet about that.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> I'm sure it is, and I'll bet the Mail/Express/Der Stürmer are having an absolute field day.
> 
> I wonder how vocal they were when the UK government was threatening to break international law?
> 
> Whataboutery, sure, but it is rather amusing how big a deal this (temporary, poor PR) EU screw up is, vs the continual deception of Boris and co, the lining of their mates' pockets with PPE contracts, and the small fact that the root issue of an NI/ROI trade border has been created by Boris et al in the first place. But they're rather quiet about that.



Classic whataboutary. Been dismissed plenty of times by Robin (one of the Tuffty club members) as a shiite arguement.
BBC, ITV, Sky news, the lot mate, not just the 3 papers you list. I believe they were extremely vocal aboiut it, Gena Millar was in the headlines all the time. I suppose it's every dog has it's day. Anyway, Gena's keeping very quiet.
Funny old world.

The best read was from WHO, who basically said it was sad to see EU fighting for cake when the rest of the world dodesn't have crumbs.
May be shut down soon as someones got the hump or the editing will start to happen, like last time


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Classic whataboutary. Been dismissed plenty of times by Robin as a shiite arguement.
> BBC, ITV, Sky news, the lot mate, not just the 3 papers you list.


Come on Bob; the Mail et al loosing their minds over a (very real, and serious, albeit temporary) screw up by the EU is like Peter Sutcliffe expressing disgust about that time Buzz Aldrin punched a bloke.

Has the irony not been lost on you that the whole issue only exists in the first place due to England and Wales voting to leave?

The daft thing is that the Brexiteer glee seems to centred around the notion that some people think the EU is perfect (and thus the illusion is shattered). That's never been the case at any point in this long and tedious argument; it's always been about a pro/con balance. I'll take a poor PR screw up and U turn over our litany of visits from the foobar fairy any day of the week.

On a lighter note, don't go into the shed today: Tragedy as Daily Mail readers wank themselves to death after EU finally makes mistake


----------



## doctor Bob

I'm off to me shed, got a really hard job to do


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> I'm off to me shed, got a really hard job to do


Take care. And some lube.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Noel said:


> Would the south even want the place?


So, that one's complex. I mean, for a start, the name isn't "the south" or "Southern Ireland", it's "Ireland" because at the time, nobody felt that the country was being split, so much as there was a temporary territorial incongruity that would later be resolved. "At the time" here refers to a period about a century ago, but at that point it would have been akin to referring to China as "Northern China" when talking about China and Taiwan (I don't recommend that by the way, if you ever find some enemy has given you the opportunity to do so).

But as to reunification, every person who remembers a single united Ireland is now dead from old age. Nobody paying taxes today knows it as anything but a proposal, or some dry text in a history book, and that state of affairs primarily came about because the Good Friday Agreement took all the things like border posts and army bases which were acting like petrol in a house fire and removed them, and over time, things calmed down a notch. Not "calm", by normal measures - NI in the good times was still a place where you could put a foot wrong and not get it back - but businesses could business, and families could family and it was a place to live, not a place to flee from. And the border counties in Ireland felt a large benefit from that too; you don't have to actually stand *in* the volcano to get burned after all.

So over the last decade or so, anytime someone surveyed people in Ireland on the question of reunification, one of two things happened - either you didn't specify what the economic cost would be and they said yes, or you did and they said no. I think the majority of people here feel that it's a nice academic idea, but nobody wants to take the economic hit that West Germany took from reunification. Now you add in the DUP to the equation and frankly, we've had enough experience with being a religious theocracy (we're right now just absorbing the latest in about six reports on the works of the religious orders in Ireland and this one accounts for several thousand dead children, the bodies of almost eight hundred of which were found in a mass grave in an abandoned Victorian sewer under the institution in question in Tuam) that the idea of allowing the DUP into government in Ireland when they insist on creationism as public policy in Northern Ireland (there is literally a part in the visitors centre by the Giant's Causeway that says it's a basalt formation formed in volcanic activity 60 million years ago _or_ God Made It Like It Says In The Bible because of the DUP). The way that the DUP maintains links with terrorist groups who did _not_ agree to disarm as part of the Good Friday Agreement is also something that nobody here wants any part of. But it wouldn't be possible to just take NI without the DUP so, honestly, between the pricetag and the T&Cs, I think you'd have a hard uphill slog to argue for reunification here. In NI, not so much, there's been recent tipping over towards the idea because of the DUP's handling of Brexit, of Covid, and of some financial scandals that preceded both and which collapsed the NI government for months _right when it was needed_ to deal with Brexit and Covid. But both sides of the border have to agree before reunification, so the nightmare scenario is now on the table that NI could leave the UK, but Ireland wouldn't vote to reunify. And that's a nightmare because NI isn't a self-sustaining entity.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Rorschach said:


> I also agree that I think Brexit made a split of the UK more likely (though I think it was fairly likely before that). Personally I don't hold any strong unionist feelings. If the Scots want to go it alone, I wish them the best. I think however it would be a terribly bad idea unless their first act is to vote out the SNP who are wholly incompetent to run a country.
> What does confuse me though is the wish to become an independent country, and then join the EU (if allowed, which is unlikely) who would offer a terrible deal and they would be swapping Westminster overlord for Brussels overlords with Scotland having much less power. Very strange, but not my choice.


From out here it seems that not a lot of people "on the ground" agree with your assessment of the SNP, and to be honest looking at Westminster's reaction to Covid19 and Holyrood's, it's hard to see the grounds for your assessment. 
That aside, the reasoning behind leaving the UK and joining the EU seems fairly straightforward. The EU has more money, offers more trade, and has in the past proven at cost to itself that smaller member states are treated as first class citizens. Whereas the UK economy is projected to not be recovering in the near term and has unanswered questions hanging over it in the medium to long term, and 43% of their trade was already with the EU before Brexit (and the Single Market accounted for the majority of their trade). And Westminister has a rather bad reputation when it comes to anything "north or west of Watford". 
I mean, there are a whole bunch of personal reasons but I'm too far away to see those; but everyone can see the trade figures and historical record.

You might want to think about asking for the nukes back if they do split off btw!


----------



## Noel

MarkDennehy said:


> So, that one's complex. I mean, for a start, the name isn't "the south" or "Southern Ireland", it's "Ireland" because at the time, nobody felt that the country was being split, so much as there was a temporary territorial incongruity that would later be resolved. "At the time" here refers to a period about a century ago, but at that point it would have been akin to referring to China as "Northern China" when talking about China and Taiwan (I don't recommend that by the way, if you ever find some enemy has given you the opportunity to do so).



I was speaking in a colloquial sense Mark, so it's indeed the South, although "down below" is a common term as well. Next time you're in the North, call in.
I have a customer in Ballysadare, Sligo who always refers to "down North"


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> ......
> May put up a Diane Abbott video for Jacob, too early at the moment.


Every time Bobby gets excited he thinks of Diane Abbott! 
Could Therese Coffey help cool him down?


----------



## Jake

I think of Bob as an Ann Widdecombe man.


----------



## Noel

Noel said:


> I was speaking in a colloquial sense Mark, so it's indeed the South, although "down below" is a common term as well. Next time you're in the North, call in.
> I have a customer in Ballysadare, Sligo who always refers to "down North"





MarkDennehy said:


> So, that one's complex. I mean, for a start, the name isn't "the south" or "Southern Ireland", it's "Ireland" because at the time, nobody felt that the country was being split, so much as there was a temporary territorial incongruity that would later be resolved. "At the time" here refers to a period about a century ago, but at that point it would have been akin to referring to China as "Northern China" when talking about China and Taiwan (I don't recommend that by the way, if you ever find some enemy has given you the opportunity to do so).



I saw this description of the place on SM the other day from a gentleman in England:

South & North of Eire


----------



## Jacob

Jake said:


> I think of Bob as an Ann Widdecombe man.


She's already spoken for.


----------



## Noel

MarkDennehy said:


> So, that one's complex. I mean, for a start, the name isn't "the south" or "Southern Ireland", it's "Ireland" because at the time, nobody felt that the country was being split, so much as there was a temporary territorial incongruity that would later be resolved. "At the time" here refers to a period about a century ago, but at that point it would have been akin to referring to China as "Northern China" when talking about China and Taiwan (I don't recommend that by the way, if you ever find some enemy has given you the opportunity to do so).
> 
> But as to reunification, every person who remembers a single united Ireland is now dead from old age. Nobody paying taxes today knows it as anything but a proposal, or some dry text in a history book, and that state of affairs primarily came about because the Good Friday Agreement took all the things like border posts and army bases which were acting like petrol in a house fire and removed them, and over time, things calmed down a notch. Not "calm", by normal measures - NI in the good times was still a place where you could put a foot wrong and not get it back - but businesses could business, and families could family and it was a place to live, not a place to flee from. And the border counties in Ireland felt a large benefit from that too; you don't have to actually stand *in* the volcano to get burned after all.
> 
> So over the last decade or so, anytime someone surveyed people in Ireland on the question of reunification, one of two things happened - either you didn't specify what the economic cost would be and they said yes, or you did and they said no. I think the majority of people here feel that it's a nice academic idea, but nobody wants to take the economic hit that West Germany took from reunification. Now you add in the DUP to the equation and frankly, we've had enough experience with being a religious theocracy (we're right now just absorbing the latest in about six reports on the works of the religious orders in Ireland and this one accounts for several thousand dead children, the bodies of almost eight hundred of which were found in a mass grave in an abandoned Victorian sewer under the institution in question in Tuam) that the idea of allowing the DUP into government in Ireland when they insist on creationism as public policy in Northern Ireland (there is literally* a part in the visitors centre by the Giant's Causeway that says it's a basalt formation formed in volcanic activity 60 million years ago or God Made It Like It Says In The Bible because of the DUP).* The way that the DUP maintains links with terrorist groups who did _not_ agree to disarm as part of the Good Friday Agreement is also something that nobody here wants any part of. But it wouldn't be possible to just take NI without the DUP so, honestly, between the pricetag and the T&Cs, I think you'd have a hard uphill slog to argue for reunification here. In NI, not so much, there's been recent tipping over towards the idea because of the DUP's handling of Brexit, of Covid, and of some financial scandals that preceded both and which collapsed the NI government for months _right when it was needed_ to deal with Brexit and Covid. But both sides of the border have to agree before reunification, so the nightmare scenario is now on the table that NI could leave the UK, but Ireland wouldn't vote to reunify. And that's a nightmare because NI isn't a self-sustaining entity.



Pretty much accurate Mark. 
Speaking of the Causeway visitor centre, there's no truth in a holiday mad DUP MP getting tangled up in a backhander situation with the developer.......


----------



## ivan

N & S of Eire? Sureley that's Rockall and Scotland?


----------



## Noel

ivan said:


> N & S of Eire? Sureley that's Rockall and Scotland?




Iceland & Spain?


----------



## MarkDennehy

Noel said:


> I saw this description of the place on SM the other day from a gentleman in England:
> South & North of Eire



Yeah, the Eire thing is a bit... problematic.
See, if you're speaking English, the word is Ireland. If you're speaking Gaeilge, the word is Éire but that fada over the E matters, because E and É are completely different letters in Gaeilge and the difference matters. For example, cáca means cake, which you'd like to eat and caca means faeces which.... well, to each their own but I'd rather not  (There's more to it, like the point that Gaeilge didn't actually use the latin alphabet English uses originally so it was easier to see the difference and so on, but I'm not enough of an expert to go that far in it - native speakers aren't common in Ireland)
So "South & North of Eire" is a phrase that in a way describes the speaker better than the object


----------



## Jake

InTheHighlands said:


> I've read the contract - and, from a previous life, am used to reading such things........



I've skimmed it but only focused on the bits in issue, and same, but still current life for better or worse.



> It looks to me that the EU are pointing at Clause 5.4, where the UK factories are mentioned. There's room for some ambiguity, but my reading of 5.4 is that it's a clause put in by the EU seeking AZ's Best Endeavours to manufacture IN the EU (presumably because of confidence in standards and/or to keep the money spent locally) and they state that the UK factories will be deemed to satisfy this requirement. It's NOT a clause focussed on manufacturing FOR the EU.[
> 
> The clause goes on to say that the EU will try to help find alternative manufacturing sites in the EU in the event of production problems etc. And then goes on to say how they will approve sites outside the EU if all else fails.
> 
> The EU seem to be misrepresenting the contract..........



I don't think there is a problem for them in Clause 5.4, that works fine. UK is deemed to be EU for the purposes of that clause. So AZ is obliged to use best endeavours to supply from EU+UK (I think that is because AZ's plan is to produce mainly from the UK once fully ramped up - unclear to me how far they have got on that). What the Commission was getting very hot under the collar about was the AZ representation at 13(1)(e) that AZ had no prior obligations which would hinder its fulfilment of its obligations under the agreement (which include best endeavours to make supply on schedule). As I said, that obviously doesn't work, can't work. So the EU definitely got the wrong end of the stick in saying AZ is is breach, poor lawyering.


----------



## Noel

MarkDennehy said:


> Yeah, the Eire thing is a bit... problematic.
> See, if you're speaking English, the word is Ireland. If you're speaking Gaeilge, the word is Éire but that fada over the E matters, because E and É are completely different letters in Gaeilge and the difference matters. For example, cáca means cake, which you'd like to eat and caca means faeces which.... well, to each their own but I'd rather not
> So "South & North of Eire" is a phrase that in a way describes the speaker better than the object



It's problematic (fada not withstanding) for some as their out look is still tethered to a bygone age, usually around 1950 or so.


----------



## stuartpaul

doctor Bob said:


> Surely it's an own goal, not just a deflection but UvdL, picked up the ball in defence passed it to half her brexit team, dribbled around her team mates and scored a cracking goal. Celebrated for 2 hrs and then realised that no one was cheering, thought about it for a few more hours and then told everyone it wasn't a goal and that she hadn't meant to shot from 20 yards out and that it was a ball boy encouraging her which made the oversight happen.
> Now she is invoking article 122, which basically means she is taking ownership of the pitch and goalposts and football, and she will go home, for tea, if no one likes it.
> She's been in charge of the team for 3 days, maybe 4, and she's lost the fans already.


pineapple me Bob, - that’s an analogy! Never thought I’d see the day.


----------



## Keith Cocker

Fergie 307 said:


> Who is the carrier out of interest? None of the major carriers seem to be having these problems.


Not true in my experience. I ordered an item from Amazon UK - a low value extension bar for a ratchet - and they shipped it from their Spanish facility via UPS on 19th Jan. Its still not here. the UPS tracking shows ""The package is delayed due to a Brexit related disruption. We are adjusting delivery plans as quickly as possible" I think UPS would regard themselves as a "Major carrier"!! Brexit is the worst mistake this country has made for a very long time IMO.


----------



## Peterm1000

Jake said:


> I've skimmed it but only focused on the bits in issue, and same, but still current life for better or worse.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there is a problem for them in Clause 5.4, that works fine. UK is deemed to be EU for the purposes of that clause. So AZ is obliged to use best endeavours to supply from EU+UK (I think that is because AZ's plan is to produce mainly from the UK once fully ramped up - unclear to me how far they have got on that). What the Commission was getting very hot under the collar about was the AZ representation at 13(1)(e) that AZ had no prior obligations which would hinder its fulfilment of its obligations under the agreement (which include best endeavours to make supply on schedule). As I said, that obviously doesn't work, can't work. So the EU definitely got the wrong end of the stick in saying AZ is is breach, poor lawyering.



Not "Best Efforts". The contract says "Best Reasonable Efforts". The contract goes on to describe that as the kind of effort a similar sized company would make. The addition of the word "reasonable" and the language afterwards reduces the standard from "Best Efforts" substantially. It's now an arguing match between the two sides as to whether AZ could "reasonably" do more. I don't think many companies would breach the terms of a contract with one client to improve the speed they deliver for another.

I heard on the news that the reason the EU took 3 months longer is because they secured a cheaper price per dose than the UK (strange, because all these Brexit threads are full of Leave supporters claiming the EU squanders money and the UK government would have a much more penny pinching approach).


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> The daft thing is that the Brexiteer glee seems to centred around the notion that some people think the EU is perfect (and thus the illusion is shattered). That's never been the case at any point in this long and tedious argument; it's always been about a pro/con balance. I'll take a poor PR screw up and U turn over our litany of visits from the foobar fairy any day of the week.



Of course I see your point, but only a few weeks ago your gang was pointing out "George the truckie losing his sandwich."
So why make such a big deal over it. Well it scored you a point. So I don't really think your in any position to chastise me for my "glee", mainly because you all go so excited over a confiscated ham sandwich, some of you really "went to the shed" over it.
So you see, it's very easy for things to bite you in the arris.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Noel said:


> It's problematic (fada not withstanding) for some as their out look is still tethered to a bygone age, usually around 1950 or so.


I mean, the original origin of the word Eire (as opposed to Éire) is very much... well, it's very full-on stereotypical whitehall mustachio'd villan actually, but most of those originators are just gone these days. What cracks me up about the word is that it's far harder to pronounce compared to "Ireland". I mean, if you're saying Eire, the word structure is just a bit odd compared to most English nouns so you get fifty different ways to say it. Saying Éire would be a bit hard to master as well if you grew up speaking English becuase the long vowel sounds are one of those things that always sound like you have an odd accent if you didn't learn them through immersion (I mean, I thought I could pronounce French after school, and then the first French person I spoke French to just very politely asked me to stop because I sounded like I'd learnt French in Korea and it was hurting their ears).
But "Ireland" is easy to pronounce (unless you're from Boston apparently, and they pronounce it with a long 'r' and what sounds like six 'e's more than are written into the word and somehow they get a descending pitch tone on the 'I' which I have trouble replicating when I try  ).
Honestly, it's like watching someone going out of their way to make life harder on their mouth


----------



## RobinBHM

Jake said:


> It looks like the EU misread the strength of their contractual hand vs AZ. Interesting argument because AZ promised them it had no prior contractual obligations which would prevent impede hinder it from fulfilling its supply obligations to the EU. As AZ had a 'best endeavours' duty (really high) to fulfill supply schedule to the EU I think the Commission read that as cast iron and that AZ would be in breach if they didn't at least throttle UK supplies proportionally to the throttle on UK supplies (which has been their ask for weeks)
> 
> But I think that's wrong, as best endeavours do not oblige you to breach obligations to third parties. So the prior agreement with the UK did not prevent hinder etc AZ from using Its best endeavours, it just had already reduced the scope of what it could with best endeavours at the time it contracted with the EU.
> 
> As for the row generally, picture the reverse. All AZ production is in the UK and and we paid for a new factory which is struggling but the EU is refusing to accept a proportional cut in supply, with the effect that the UK is shorter of supply than the EU despite it all being produced in the UK. I think I know how jingoists woukd paint that one, and I am absolutely sure this UK government would be threatening all sorts of emergency measures.



I think the EU is upset because they agreed 120million doses.
AZ then told EU before Christmas they could only do 80million
AZ then told EU this week they could only do 30 million.

EU did pay AZ $400 million upfront, so they've invested in setting up the factories too.

I believe the contract includes a "competing contracts" clause....so it does mean there's a case for EU vs UK supplies.

Yes the EU took longer due to price and legal negotiations.

UK have removed any comeback from AZ for any legal,claims, EU have not.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Of course I see your point, but only a few weeks ago your gang was pointing out "George the truckie losing his sandwich."
> So why make such a big deal over it. Well it scored you a point. So I don't really think your in any position to chastise me for my "glee", mainly because you all go so excited over a confiscated ham sandwich, some of you really "went to the shed" over it.
> So you see, it's very easy for things to bite you in the arris.


I don't think there was any celebration over the "sandwich loss incident" (or indeed any of the problems caused by Brexit). A fair bit of "we told you so", sure; but no celebration. We're all being bent over and shafted by this together.

There's also a rather different magnitude of screw up here: the EU took some action that was legal under the withdrawal agreement, which was however poorly thought out, ham fisted, bad PR, and then U turned (after having made themselves look daft). In comparison, the UK government have handed the nation long term trade barriers, and threatened to break international law (as just two "minor" examples of the Brexit debacle). Not really on the same level of mess or impact is it!

PS I've lost count of the number of times our government has done something dumb and then U turned this month; let alone over the last year, so it's rather pointless to keep score on that one as it ain't "them" that are losing that game.

PPS My "arris" is nice and soft


----------



## Jacob

UK firms plan to shift across Channel after Brexit chaos
Well whooder thortit? Stone the crows! Quelle surprise! Blow me down wivva fevver!
Anne Widdecombe never said anything about this?
Could be a problem now freedom of movement now ended - it might be hard to follow the businesses and get a job.
Oh well I'm sure it'll all work out for the best, Johnson seems quite confident, Farage and Widdecombe will have thought it through carefully. 
Good to know it's in safe hands...... er....


----------



## Jake

Peterm1000 said:


> Not "Best Efforts". The contract says "Best Reasonable Efforts



Yes true, same point holds though. Breaking commitments in a prior contract cannot be within the scope of that.


----------



## Jake

Jacob said:


> She's already spoken for.
> 
> View attachment 102201



That is Bob isn't it?


----------



## Jake

sploo said:


> the EU took some action that was legal under the withdrawal agreement, which was however poorly thought out, ham fisted, bad PR, and then U turned



What actually happened was the Commission announced an intention to do something politically incendiary, but possibly legal if they followed the procedure. Then said totalitarian unaccountable overlords got told to shut up and reverse course by the the elected heads of the sovereign governments of member states, and did so.


----------



## sploo

Jake said:


> What actually happened was the Commission announced an intention to do something politically incendiary, but possibly legal if they followed the procedure. Then said totalitarian unaccountable overlords got told to shut up and reverse course by the the elected heads of the sovereign governments of member states, and did so.


Wait... individual states that are EU member countries have sovereignty!?!??!?!? Elected national heads could override the Commission!?!?!?!?

It's almost as if the EU system works


----------



## Jake

sploo said:


> Wait... individual states that are EU member countries have sovereignty!?!??!?!? Elected national heads could override the Commission!?!?!?!?
> 
> It's almost as if the EU system works



Nuts isn't it.


----------



## Jacob

Jacob said:


> UK firms plan to shift across Channel after Brexit chaos


And if they _do_ move guess what - they'd have to employ foreigners! 
We've lost freedom of movement to stop horrible foreigners stealing our jobs and now they will not only be taking our jobs but taking our businesses too!
Was this really in Johnson's oven ready deal?


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> And if they _do_ move guess what - they'd have to employ foreigners!
> We've lost freedom of movement to stop horrible foreigners stealing our jobs and now they will not only be taking our jobs but taking our businesses too!
> Was this really in Johnson's oven ready deal?



They could still employ British people, just like firms here can still employ Europeans, the difference is there is no automatic right to be able to work/settle. You know this of course, but it isn't on your record.


----------



## PetePontoValentino

McAldo said:


> Today DPD returned to me a package meant to a friend in Italy, for the second time..
> When that happened the first time, one week ago, their customer service were very apologetic and also said there was no reason on file for the parcel to have been stopped before even leaving the UK, and that they were happy to either refund me or pick it up again,
> Having opted for the latter, and rated them 1 star on trust pilot pending succesfull delivery, they got back to me explaining that unfortunately the package was being returned once again, and it was a widespread problem related to Brexit, affecting manydeliveries over the last month or so.
> However, they also mentioned this should now be solved.
> So I am trying again..
> 
> The delivery driver for my area is always the same and after the second return apparently assumed I was some trader in the habit to ship defective items


Good luck with your shipping, I had a bit of a giggle about the dodgy trader


----------



## PetePontoValentino

McAldo said:


> That is one way of seeing it, but not necessarily a perfect description of the situation.
> When work got in the way of me attending sessions at my turning club, I notified the president that unfortunately it made little sense for me to remain a member.
> I was reassured that I would anyway be welcome to attend sessions whenever I could, for a fee at the door, but other activities such as trips to show, socials and similar, were reserved to members only.
> If I were a certain kind of person, I could have thought, or even argued, that it was probably some evil ploy to teach me a lesson and encourage other members not to leave the club. People reasoning like that about every day life and ordinary things are rare I think, but in life you meet all sorts.
> But how would that reasoning sit with the club members?
> They made the club so to help each other, enjoy each other company, and access activities that would be very hard to organize on a regular basis as a bunch of unconnected woodworkers.
> Of course the implications of that is also that the benefits are only for members. And that the activities work accordingly to the club. I cannot have my own favourite time for demonstrations, restrict them to bowls work only, demand that it all reflects my own spin on woodturning.
> And if I demand for my suggestions to be heard as a non member, that might well fall on deaf ears.
> But does that really happen because I am being punished?
> Are we, non members, the very center of the club's concerns?
> 
> I found it interesting that, when applying so called common sense to their normal life, activities and social activities, people come up with conclusions completely different than their opinion about politics, international trade and so forth.



An interesting analogy, however, I see (all) politicians as somewhat different to "normal people". I left the UK in 2020 and now live in Switzerland. I regularly order stuff that I can't get over here but am becoming reluctant to do so as the shipping is so much hassle. 

Okay, so the impact of Brexit is relatively small and I can thankfully side step most of the Brexit stuff that is going on.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Todays news seems to be problems for the Steel Industry as the free trade agreement has limitations and the effective quota will run out in a few months but on the upside we are applying to join a trading club of Pacific Rim nations ...


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> They could still employ British people, just like firms here can still employ Europeans, the difference is there is no automatic right to be able to work/settle. You know this of course, but it isn't on your record.


You are getting there! 
No automatic right to be able to work/settle is the main deterrent, on top of the big mess of new red tape, insurances, vehicle licences, processes about access to public services and so on. 
It's already worked brilliantly in Britain with a shortage of foreign farm workers last season and a big fall in NHS recruitment, helped by a deliberately policy of hostility to foreigners.
It's all going to plan, stopping freedom of movement and xenophobia were top of the brexit agenda from day one.


----------



## Rorschach

Wanting to stop freedom of movement isn't xenophobic.


----------



## doctor Bob

Blackswanwood said:


> ....................... upside we are applying to join a trading club of Pacific Rim nations ...



That's not a bad thing and yes I see you have said "upside" but then a frowny face, so curious as to what you feel about it.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> Wanting to stop freedom of movement isn't xenophobic.


It is if it's about stopping freedom of movement of foreigners.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> That's not a bad thing and yes I see you have said "upside" but then a frowny face, so curious as to what you feel about it.



Remind me, where is "the Pacific Rim" in relation to Dover?


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> It is if it's about stopping freedom of movement of foreigners.



I think that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have seen on this thread.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> Remind me, where is "the Pacific Rim" in relation to Dover?



if you think it's just geographical position that's important then I can't change your mind.

Not that I could, as that's not how it works on an internet forum. It is just binary.
Trade only with next door, never further afield.
I'd be looking more at the 900million customers, the £9 trillion market.
How's the calculus going?


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> if you think it's just geographical position that's important then I can't change your mind.


Geographical position is important due to distance and journey times. This is why you get your kitchen jobs mainly within 100 miles or so (I guess) and hardly ever in, say, Taiwan. It's simper than you think.
Raab was even confused about where Europe was in relation to Dover, so its no wonder that other people are confused and simple logic is out of the window


> ....
> Trade only with next door, never further afield.


Go for it! What is holding you back? The world is your oyster!
Remember the advice of your great leader IBS:
“I just wish I was 21 again, frankly,.....Because my goodness what prospects lie ahead of us for young people now. To be out there buccaneering, trading, dominating the world again...”








IDS rinsed after urging young Brits to 'buccaneer, trade and dominate the world'


The London Economic - “I just wish I was 21 again. Because my goodness what prospects lie ahead of us for young people now..." - Politics




www.thelondoneconomic.com




And don't forget - Anne Widdecombe is watching you and has high expectations!


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> Geographical position is important due to distance and journey times. This is why you get your kitchen jobs mainly within 100 miles or so (I guess) and hardly ever in, say, Taiwan. It's simper than you think.
> Raab was even confused about where Europe was in relation to Dover, so its no wonder that other people are confused and simple logic is out of the windowGo for it! What is holding you back? The world is your oyster!
> Remember the advice of your great leader IBS:
> “I just wish I was 21 again, frankly," IDS - an arch-Brexiteer - said. "Because my goodness what prospects lie ahead of us for young people now. To be out there buccaneering, trading, dominating the world again...”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDS rinsed after urging young Brits to 'buccaneer, trade and dominate the world'
> 
> 
> The London Economic - “I just wish I was 21 again. Because my goodness what prospects lie ahead of us for young people now..." - Politics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelondoneconomic.com



I understand. (see non binary)
why is a bad thing, joining the Pacific rim group.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> I see all that but why is a bad thing though, joining the Pacific rim group.


We already trade with the Pacific rim. It's not a bad thing at all. But it isn't a simple alternative to trading with the EU, now that that has become so problematic.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> If it were a serious virus then yes the 60% would be a problem...


As I've noted before; I'll pass your thoughts onto my (exhausted doctor) wife. I'm sure she'll be relieved to hear that their terrified, gasping, and dying patients are faking it, and the protocols they have in place in the hospital with "covid hot" wards are all completely unnecessary.


----------



## Peterm1000

Jake said:


> Yes true, same point holds though. Breaking commitments in a prior contract cannot be within the scope of that.



I don't agree... Breaking commitments is arguably within the scope of "Best Efforts" - it means doing the very best you can to do something. The addition of the word reasonable and then the comparison to other similar companies implies it is not. Either way, the EU isn't going to litigate over this because that would take years. AZ still has the easiest vaccine to transport and will be the winner until the single dose vaccines come in.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> I understand. (see non binary)
> why is a bad thing, joining the Pacific rim group.


I believe we already have trade agreements with a number of the members of that block; though there are rumours the US might join now that Biden is in charge (Trump was against it). That could provide a useful benefit.

Analogy alert: The problem of course is that it's like celebrating getting a wooden leg after deliberately cutting your real one off; it's a positive, sure, but tiny in comparison to what you've lost.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> I think that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have seen on this thread.


How about this then?


----------



## Peterm1000

sploo said:


> I believe we already have trade agreements with a number of the members of that block; though there are rumours the US might join now that Biden is in charge (Trump was against it). That could provide a useful benefit.
> 
> Analogy alert: The problem of course is that it's like celebrating getting a wooden leg after deliberately cutting your real one off; it's a positive, sure, but tiny in comparison to what you've lost.


----------



## Awac

sploo said:


> No matter how loony, the NHS will treat them.
> 
> Sadly, there's no vaccine for Dunning–Kruger.


My wife is reading Nietzsche next to me and is thinking the same......


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> Sadly, there's no vaccine for Dunning–Kruger


Very good


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> We already trade with the Pacific rim. It's not a bad thing at all.



Thank you.


----------



## Noho12C

Rorschach said:


> They could still employ British people, just like firms here can still employ Europeans, the difference is there is no automatic right to be able to work/settle. You know this of course, but it isn't on your record.


So you really think they would move their company to EU and offer (expensive) expat contracts to British people for the sake of it, instead of hiring cheaper local workforce ?


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> Thank you.


My pleasure. Hope that helped.
Will you be off yourself to find new clients somewhere around the Pacific Rim?
Send us a post card if you do!
PS and don't forget the middle of the Pacific - Vanuatu is very nice this time of the year


----------



## Noho12C

Rorschach said:


> Wanting to stop freedom of movement isn't xenophobic.


No, but let's be honest for a minute : a good part of the brexit idea relies on xenophobia. The usual BS : foreigners stealing British jobs and living on benefits.
I strongly believe many people voted in favour of the brexit with some xenophobic mindset.


----------



## Jacob

Noho12C said:


> So you really think they would move their company to EU and offer (expensive) expat contracts to British people for the sake of it, instead of hiring cheaper local workforce ?


Brits working abroad would probably have to take a hit in their wages to cover the extra expense and sheer difficulty of employing them.


----------



## Noho12C

Jacob said:


> Brits working abroad would probably have to take a hit in their wages to cover the extra expense and sheer difficulty of employing them.


Oh I think people wouldn't bother at all moving to EU. And UK companies relocating in EU would simply hire local workforce. Cheaper and easier.


----------



## RobinBHM

Noho12C said:


> Ps : there was an interesting article (in the guardian ?) about BJ trying helplessly to please Biden for a potential future deal with the US, without much success. Looks like the adoration BJ had for Trump is firing back..



A key reason Brexit was a USA trade deal.

Many so called Brexit think tanks (in reality Brexit propaganda sites) have been funded by US libertarian groups

Intstitue of Economic Affairs is an example, it gets funding from the Koch foundation who campaign for deregulation. The IEA is a site that pushes for privatisation of NHS. The current health secretary received £32k from the IEA, so we shouldn't be surprised there have been plenty of NHS contracts opened up to the public sector in recent years.

And top advisor to the government, Matthew Elliott has very close connection to the Koch brothers.

So a USA trade deal is a key prize for all those MPs involved in private healthcare....it's a cash cow.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> My pleasure. Hope that helped.
> Will you be off yourself to find new clients somewhere around the Pacific Rim?
> Send us a post card if you do!
> PS and don't forget the middle of the Pacific - Vanuatu is very nice this time of the year



Quite possibly, I like that area, could do a trip on business expenses. Assessing the market and all that. Japan, Aus, NZ, etc. Much more fun than the trip to Portugal to measure up.
Once we are released, could be great tax avoidance.
You're a genius.


----------



## doctor Bob

Rorschach said:


> Good if people like Robin are going to start resorting to bare faced lies.


Can't you do it somewhere else? Why not just PM each other, then you could really abuse each other.
Me and Jacob write letters to each other, I put dog poo in the envelope and he returns it with cat poo and allsorts of unspeakable stuff.


----------



## RobinBHM

It is true the EU have behaved badly, but Brexit will still cause long term damage....mostly to small businesses.

Which will go on for years.


I hope the general public will start to see the disbenefits of being a 3rd country and will begin to change the narrative so we build a closer relationship.


----------



## Noho12C

RobinBHM said:


> It is true the EU have behaved badly



On what instance ?


----------



## Blackswanwood

doctor Bob said:


> That's not a bad thing and yes I see you have said "upside" but then a frowny face, so curious as to what you feel about it.


I’m not very good with emojis ... I thought that one meant not sure what to think.

I voted Remain but am of the view that the decision having been made we need to get on with it. I don’t buy the view that the UK will become a backwater - we’re pretty resilient as a nation and need to look for the opportunities - this could be one and I hope it is.

The debacle of How we negotiated our exit (I would have brought in the best negotiators from industry on day one rather than leaving it to politicians and civil servants), backbiting and political shenanigans over the past few years haven’t done anything to build our reputation on the world stage. I think the way we respond to the EU over the vaccine row is an opportunity to show true leadership and hopefully start to move forward again.

I will now await someone telling me I am wrong as that is the custom with this thread. . Hopefully this emoji means that’s a joke rather than I am crying!


----------



## Blackswanwood

Jacob said:


> We already trade with the Pacific rim. It's not a bad thing at all. But it isn't a simple alternative to trading with the EU, now that that has become so problematic.


Although the prospect for growth in Pacific Rim nations far outstrips the EU.


----------



## RobinBHM

Noho12C said:


> On what instance ?


invoking NI protocol article 16
not a great move in my mind.


----------



## RobinBHM

Blackswanwood said:


> Although the prospect for growth in Pacific Rim nations far outstrips the EU.


Liz Truss says its a great opportunity....so maybe it isnt


----------



## RobinBHM

Blackswanwood said:


> Although the prospect for growth in Pacific Rim nations far outstrips the EU.


thats true, but prospect for growth is always larger when you start from a small position

Around 8% of British exports go to the 11 countries of the CPTPP; over 40% to the 27 countries of the EU. The traditional arguments about trade – that geography and gravity matter more than politics – suggest that these proportions are unlikely to change radically in the short to medium term.


----------



## Noho12C

RobinBHM said:


> invoking NI protocol article 16
> not a great move in my mind.


Not the best move indeed. But I don't think allowing UK to get EU made vaccines when EU can't get UK made vaccine isn't great neither.


----------



## billw

sploo said:


> Sadly, there's no vaccine for Dunning–Kruger.



One of my favourite theories that is!


----------



## Blackswanwood

RobinBHM said:


> thats true, but prospect for growth is always larger when you start from a small position
> 
> Around 8% of British exports go to the 11 countries of the CPTPP; over 40% to the 27 countries of the EU. The traditional arguments about trade – that geography and gravity matter more than politics – suggest that these proportions are unlikely to change radically in the short to medium term.


I get the points on geography and gravity but throughout history trade has taken place over many thousands of miles so it possibly takes a different outlook (and some optimism) to see where the opportunities are.

The prospect for real growth may also come from the demographics in the comparison. I haven’t checked but would guess that Europe’s ageing population and mature markets show less potential for growth than others.


----------



## Rorschach

billw said:


> One of my favourite theories that is!


 
Me too, I love how the racing cars sound as they go past.


----------



## billw

RobinBHM said:


> Liz Truss says its a great opportunity....so maybe it isnt



I noticed today there was mention that if we get in the TPP before China we could (but no guarantee) veto their membership. I wonder how geopolitical this decision is.


----------



## sploo

Noho12C said:


> Ps : there was an interesting article (in the guardian ?) about BJ trying helplessly to please Biden for a potential future deal with the US, without much success. Looks like the adoration BJ had for Trump is firing back...


That's one of the things that's really amused me about Biden getting the presidency; Boris did his usual poor decision making when he had his "Kenyan heritage" stab at Obama (timed just as Obama was leaving office, so he obviously thought a bit of dog whistle racism would play to his base, and be low risk). Unfortunately for him, the Obamas and Bidens are close personal friends; so let's just say that it didn't go down well.

Indeed, after Biden's success, and Boris' inevitable congratulations, a member of Biden's team referred to BJ as "that shape-shifting creep". Perfectly summing up the two-faced, amoral, sociopathic sack of s**t.



billw said:


> One of my favourite theories that is!


The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club... is that you don't know you're a member of the Dunning-Kruger club


----------



## sploo

Blackswanwood said:


> Although the prospect for growth in Pacific Rim nations far outstrips the EU.


£1 worth of trade to £2 worth of trade is 100% growth!

OK, I'm being facetious; but we've replaced easy access to one of the largest markets on the planet (that was also on our doorstep), for the possibility of joining one that is much smaller, and most definitely not on our doorstep. It's hard to paint that as a smart move; but then it's hard to paint the current members of the UK government as smart.


----------



## doctor Bob

Have we stopped trading with the EU?


----------



## selectortone

sploo said:


> The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club... is that you don't know you're a member of the Dunning-Kruger club


----------



## Droogs

It would appear, judging from traffic volumes, apparently so


----------



## Daniel2

doctor Bob said:


> Have we stopped trading with the EU?



My worms eye view of things says yes


----------



## doctor Bob

Droogs said:


> It would appear, judging from traffic volumes, apparently so



Are you looking at those cross channel ferries, Edinburgh to calais still.


----------



## Droogs

Edinburgh is for cruise ships (another thread) and cargo is for Rosyth mostly. We actually had a continnental ferry service but they got rid of it as most Scots had no money left to afford the tickets after (take you pick) Brussels, Westminster, Holyrood, the Council or the paperboy had robbed us of all our cash


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Have we stopped trading with the EU?


"replaced easy access" (though Droogs' joke is probably right at the moment)


----------



## Noel

*Folks, please take note. This not a C19 thread and will not turn into a C19 thread. Vaccines in the detailed context of recent EU-UK events, yes. Vaccine rollout and efficacy, no. C19 and if it's a sniffy nose or a life threatening disease or a wintery red nose, no.
If some feel it really necessary to go off piste then it'll be a simple matter of excluding you from the thread.*


----------



## Droogs

Not import but export I suppose. Just seen a piece about British immigrants to the EU or expats as they like to call themselves rather than economic migrants (which is what they are for the most part), have started to discover that they are no longer able to get things like Sky. There have been a few pieces published about how a load of those complaining actually voted for leave and can't understand why they can not get British telly anymore amongst many other things.


----------



## Noel

Droogs said:


> Not import but export I suppose. Just seen a piece about British immigrants to the EU or expats as they like to call themselves rather than economic migrants (which is what they are for the most part), have started to discover that they are no longer able to get things like Sky. There have been a few pieces published about how a load of those complaining actually voted for leave and can't understand why they can not get British telly anymore amongst many other things.



Don't be silly Droogs, of course they can get Sky.

















In Spanish, Portuguese, French....


----------



## Daniel2

I feel like I want to be offended at being referred to as an* economic migrant.*
 
Even if it is true.
But, I don't subscribe to Sky or any of it's brethren.


----------



## Droogs

If the reason you moved to the continent is to get more bang for your buck or 'cos your job made it a must rather than to be with the inlaws etc then you are an economic migrant that is what is means. Go somewhere other than where you grew up to get a better lifestyle in terms of material possessions and ability to afford such.

I'm an economic migrant, I moved from Fife to Aberdeen and then to Edinburgh via a few other places and countries
urely for financial reasons ie work.


----------



## doctor Bob

Droogs said:


> Edinburgh is for cruise ships (another thread) and cargo is for Rosyth mostly. We actually had a continnental ferry service but they got rid of it as most Scots had no money left to afford the tickets after (take you pick) Brussels, Westminster, Holyrood, the Council or the paperboy had robbed us of all our cash


Don't worry, wee Jimmy Krankie will save the day.
I lived in Polmont for 3 years in the 90's in a lovely little converted stable block. Used to hire (holiday) a converted fishing net factory on the forth in Leven for a few years.
Not been back up for 10 years. Loved Edinburgh and Glasgow


----------



## Blackswanwood

sploo said:


> £1 worth of trade to £2 worth of trade is 100% growth!
> 
> OK, I'm being facetious; but we've replaced easy access to one of the largest markets on the planet (that was also on our doorstep), for the possibility of joining one that is much smaller, and most definitely not on our doorstep. It's hard to paint that as a smart move; but then it's hard to paint the current members of the UK government as smart.


I get your point but not that it’s an exact swap - we are also able to do other deals which was not the case as an EU member. I’m not claiming it’s ideal but am perhaps feeling a more cup half full about it than some.


----------



## Daniel2

Droogs said:


> If the reason you moved to the continent is to get more bang for your buck or 'cos your job made it a must rather than to be with the inlaws etc then you are an economic migrant that is what is means. Go somewhere other than where you grew up to get a better lifestyle in terms of material possessions and ability to afford such.



With all respect Droogs, that's a bit of a simplification.
My wife is Dutch, whom I met whilst working as a true expat, many moons ago.
By virtue of us maintaining a longterm relationship (ergo; living together, then marrying),, it would be impossible to remain close to both extended families;
Therefore, we saw no issue on choosing to settle in "neutral territory", so to speak.
During the past twenty years here, two daughters have been born and bred. So, to them, France is their home, French is their first language, and they have never known anything different. 
Trying to keep it short, but I hope you see my drift ?


----------



## Droogs

DrBob did they let you out early for good behaviour? I remember you could get a grand red pudding supper from the chip shop by the square in Leven town centre then off down the beach to munch away. Polmont has a lot of very nice countryside around it


----------



## doctor Bob

Droogs said:


> DrBob did they let you out early for good behaviour? I remember you could get a grand red pudding supper from the chip shop by the square in Leven town centre then off down the beach to munch away. Polmont has a lot of very nice countryside around it



Mid Feb, massive converted factory, on the beachfront of leven, decide to go for a walk on the beach with 4 adults and 5 kids, I made it the furthest about 50 yards before turning back. I thought I wasn't going to make it, chill factor -50


----------



## Droogs

@Daniel2 I get what you're saying and I did say familial reasons for moving somewhere are perfectly valid and mean you are just an immigrant to that area. If you had moved there for money reasons then you would be an economic migrant. The term Expat is a rather jingoistic xenaphobic term and was originally used by the occupying imperial forces and politicos of the British empire to show that although they may be in a foreign land and live there a long time they were not of that place but remained British and would probably at the end of a career return to the UK

edit typo spelling


----------



## Droogs

Was it down by the swimming pool end if so think i remember the building. gone now I think, I used to stay at the far end in the caravan park


----------



## doctor Bob

Sorry near Leven, actually Lower Largo, right on the beach near a car park

Beautifully Converted Fishing Net Factory with Stunning views


----------



## sploo

Blackswanwood said:


> I get your point but not that it’s an exact swap - we are also able to do other deals which was not the case as an EU member. I’m not claiming it’s ideal but am perhaps feeling a more cup half full about it than some.


Oh it's definitely a good thing. I mean, I _think_ it's a good thing - it's hard to trust the morons we have in government at the moment due to their long (and regularly) displayed lack of competence, and abundance of malevolence (meaning they'll likely either bollerx it up, or they have plans to use it to line their own pockets). To reuse my analogy from a couple of pages ago; I'm just a bit cynical when someone's making a really big positive deal about the new wooden leg they claim they'll give you, when that's the same person that cut off your real one in the first place (whilst claiming that was a great idea too).


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> Oh it's definitely a good thing. I mean, I _think_ it's a good thing - it's hard to trust the morons we have in government at the moment due to their long (and regularly) displayed lack of competence, and abundance of malevolence (meaning they'll likely either bollerx it up, or they have plans to use it to line their own pockets). To reuse my analogy from a couple of pages ago; I'm just a bit cynical when someone's making a really big positive deal about the new wooden leg they claim they'll give you, when that's the same person that cut off your real one in the first place (whilst claiming that was a great idea too).



I'll accept your point, but it's not been cut off, at present it's a bit wobblier than it was but we don't know whether it will get tightened up. We also could have an extra leg.
My view point, very simplistically was, the EU will collapse and I think first out is best. Rather than multiple countries running for help / cover.
So I still believe we did the right thing.
I know you can chastise me for that view but I believe it will happen as you obviously beleive trade with Europe will collapse.
Also I don't accept it has to be binary, and this thread would be better served if people would give a little bit. A discussion is better than an arguement, back slapping is not helping either.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> I'll accept your point, but it's not been cut off, at present it's a bit wobblier than it was but we don't know whether it will get tightened up. We also could have an extra leg.
> My view point, very simplistically was, the EU will collapse and I think first out is best. Rather than multiple countries running for help / cover.
> So I still believe we did the right thing.
> I know you can chastise me for that view but I believe it will happen as you obviously beleive trade with Europe will collapse.


Trade with other EU nations won't collapse (and that's not something I've ever suggested or believed - indeed it would be daft for all concerned). However, we have made it harder, and more expensive. The well documented delays that have been occurring over recent weeks will eventually get resolved as everyone gets used to the new norm, but the added costs won't go away - they're permanent (at least, until we change our trading agreements at some unknown point in the future).

Will the EU as a body collapse? Nothing lasts forever; but find it hard to believe. The close proximity (and very different mindset) of many of our European neighbours means that more value does appear to be placed on interaction; whereas the UK has always seen itself as somewhat removed (both geographically, and for some who still hark back to Empire: "better").


----------



## Blackswanwood

sploo said:


> Oh it's definitely a good thing. I mean, I _think_ it's a good thing - it's hard to trust the morons we have in government at the moment due to their long (and regularly) displayed lack of competence, and abundance of malevolence (meaning they'll likely either bollerx it up, or they have plans to use it to line their own pockets). To reuse my analogy from a couple of pages ago; I'm just a bit cynical when someone's making a really big positive deal about the new wooden leg they claim they'll give you, when that's the same person that cut off your real one in the first place (whilst claiming that was a great idea too).


I do like that analogy but some would say that the leg was bad so needed cutting off. 

Given we have a deal now with the EU that has been accepted by our elected officials and it is what it is what do you think are the best practical things for the UK Government to do?


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> I'll accept your point, but it's not been cut off, at present it's a bit wobblier than it was but we don't know whether it will get tightened up. We also could have an extra leg.
> My view point, very simplistically was, the EU will collapse and I think first out is best. Rather than multiple countries running for help / cover.
> So I still believe we did the right thing.
> I know you can chastise me for that view but I believe it will happen as you obviously beleive trade with Europe will collapse.
> Also I don't accept it has to be binary, and this thread would be better served if people would give a little bit. A discussion is better than an arguement, back slapping is not helping either.



certainly the world economy will look very different in 2050

we will have been overtaken by: India, Bazil, Russia, Mexico, Indonesia


----------



## RobinBHM

Blackswanwood said:


> the best practical things for the UK Government to do?


Get some adults in parliament.

people that understand data and know where Dover is, would do to start, work upwards from that


----------



## Noel

Noel said:


> *Folks, please take note. This not a C19 thread and will not turn into a C19 thread. Vaccines in the detailed context of recent EU-UK events, yes. Vaccine rollout and efficacy, no. C19 and if it's a sniffy nose or a life threatening disease or a wintery red nose, no.
> If some feel it really necessary to go off piste then it'll be a simple matter of excluding you from the thread.*



Just in case this was missed.


----------



## sploo

Blackswanwood said:


> I do like that analogy but some would say that the leg was bad so needed cutting off.
> 
> Given we have a deal now with the EU that has been accepted by our elected officials and it is what it is what do you think are the best practical things for the UK Government to do?


Some would say; but generally they've been unable to give coherent reasons as to exactly why (lots of displays of a lack of understanding of the workings of the EU vs our own government, lack of understanding of how trade works, etc. etc).

What should the UK government do? Depends if we're talking about the incumbent morons or "government " in general?


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> What should the UK government do?


Not so much the government per se, but for the UK to move forward, we need to start having some honesty and dealing in facts.

Mainly because whatever garbage comes from the government or the media, the facts of brexit in terms of the endless trade barriers are here and are starting to bite.

So I would say to the government: start talking the truth and stop gaslighting.


----------



## Blackswanwood

RobinBHM said:


> Get some adults in parliament.
> 
> people that understand data and know where Dover is, would do to start, work upwards from that



I agree


----------



## Blackswanwood

RobinBHM said:


> Not so much the government per se, but for the UK to move forward, we need to start having some honesty and dealing in facts.



I agree with that Robin. For instance the fact that Free Trade Agreement has been misconstrued as “everything will be as it was” should never have been allowed to happen.

Unfortunately I don’t know what the answer is as very few politicians (from any party) are willing to tell it as it is.


----------



## billw

RobinBHM said:


> certainly the world economy will look very different in 2050
> 
> we will have been overtaken by: India, Bazil, Russia, Mexico, Indonesia



1. Their growth rates are higher because they've got more room to grow due to being emerging economies. China's economy has benefited from huge infrastructure spending because they didn't have a decent road/rail/air network but you can't keep building networks forever.

2. Over time it's not really surprising that countries with much larger populations generate a larger GDP than we do. Indonesia's population is something like 5x ours.

3. At tenth in the world the UK will still have a significant amount of economic clout. Or should...... but we have no idea where our trajectory is heading over that sort of time frame.


----------



## Droogs

Still gong by that projection we are still ahead of the French, so maybe Brexits not gonna be so bad


----------



## RobinBHM

billw said:


> 1. Their growth rates are higher because they've got more room to grow due to being emerging economies. China's economy has benefited from huge infrastructure spending because they didn't have a decent road/rail/air network but you can't keep building networks forever.
> 
> 2. Over time it's not really surprising that countries with much larger populations generate a larger GDP than we do. Indonesia's population is something like 5x ours.
> 
> 3. At tenth in the world the UK will still have a significant amount of economic clout. Or should...... but we have no idea where our trajectory is heading over that sort of time frame.



Yes indeed.

The Leave campaign has been arguing the EU has shrunk.....but what they neglect to point out is that EUs share of global trade has shrunk because China's has increased from $300b in the 80s to around $20trillion now.

I wasn't pointing out UK will do badly, but just making the point the global economic map is changing a great deal.


----------



## Noho12C

Droogs said:


> Still gong by that projection we are still ahead of the French, so maybe Brexits not gonna be so bad


What's the thing with the French ? Why always comparing UK to France ?


----------



## Droogs

It is a jibe at a very English trope. Seeing as the French have traditionally been the arch nemesis of the English and in light of that, if anything happens, even if it is disastrous for the UK or English people is, IF the French get it worse then it's fine. A dig at the perceved mentality of most brexiteers loosely based on around 100 years of history between the 2 peoples. Where did yo grow up Jupiter?


----------



## doctor Bob

Droogs said:


> Where did yo grow up Jupiter?



Hey my family is from Jupiter, pleasecan we try and be more considerate.
Not very PC to us Jupitarians.


----------



## Blackswanwood

Droogs said:


> It is a jibe at a very English trope. Seeing as the French have traditionally been the arch nemesis of the English and in light of that, if anything happens, even if it is disastrous for the UK or English people is, IF the French get it worse then it's fine. A dig at the perceved mentality of most brexiteers loosely based on around 100 years of history between the 2 peoples. Where did yo grow up Jupiter?


Whereas the Scots just like to see the English lose - I still have the emotional scars of watching England fail to qualify for the 2008 Euros in an Edinburgh pub. No Scotsman didn’t own a Croatia shirt that night!


----------



## Droogs

Well they say a Scotsman will always support two teams in an international tournament; Scotland and whoever is playing England


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> Not so much the government per se, but for the UK to move forward, we need to start having some honesty and dealing in facts.
> 
> Mainly because whatever garbage comes from the government or the media, the facts of brexit in terms of the endless trade barriers are here and are starting to bite.
> 
> So I would say to the government: start talking the truth and stop gaslighting.


Agreed.

I don't know if the original question was in general, or specifically about Brexit, but in general I'd say evidence and data driven policy, rather than policy driven by dogma and personal beliefs.

More in the way of fact checking (such that lying politicians and tabloid media get called out loudly and quickly) would be critical to decent government too. If it's easy to lie to get what you want, there will always be those willing to do it.


----------



## Jelly

I've recently discovered David Wilks YouTube channel, and was pleasantly surprised to see he's fair local to me and doing really interesting stuff, sharing his knowledge of deep-hole boring and trepanning, which is something of a black art in the machining world.

Well worth watching!



*Edit:* 
After reading @RobinBHM's comments, I feel like this should be titled *"What Brexit can tell us about UK Government's attitude to supporting British industry"* because the Brexit and Europe angles are both irrelevant to the core issue...​​Whenever the government is faced with a need to do something meaningful to support UK industry they dither for a bit, then do nothing of substance, whenever they talk about UK PLC or the Leveling Up agenda, there's no coherent policy behind the words which will drive that. _Both of which I find deeply frustrating._​


However, going through his back catalogue, I found he's been slowly selling off his equipment, and dissolving his business.

I've linked to the relevant bit, but to quote the video:

_"The Brexit was the start of it._​​_Brexit absolutely destroyed the engineering business, in, I don't know about the rest of England, but Sheffield took a massive beating."_​​Which just re-ignited my fury from 4 years ago.

Now don't get me wrong I was firmly in the remain camp during the referendum; but my nose was not unduly bent out of shape by that decision, it happened and the world had to keep moving; I was willing to be convinced that Brexit could be a good thing.

It's what came next (or didn't, to be precise) which got my blood boiling...
​In the weeks after the referendum, once the pound devalued, I could see that there was an opportunity, and if played right the decision to exit the EU, and the associated rebalancing of the pound on a more logical footing with the dollar and euro offered massive potential for the UK to revitalise it's manufacturing industry and body the economy with national export growth.​​We announced a new element of "industrial strategy" within government, and I thought "Great, they're really going to do it, this could be the UK's chance to emulate the success of Korea in the 70 & 80's!"​​But as time wore on within a month or two, I could see nothing was happening, the political optics and the need to win on an ideological level was trumping the practical steps which needed to be taken immediately in order to lay the groundwork to make the most of what opportunities Brexit could offer, and the capacity within the civil service which should have been moving heaven and earth to prepare that, was being wasted on endless to-ing and fro-ing due to constant government changes of direction (and leadership).​​
No-one in power was making a positive case for how we could re-make Britain and it's place within the world.
The planning for and investment in infrastructure and capacity building which needed to be happening *"rIght now!"* was nowhere to be seen, and
No short to medium term support for otherwise strong businesses which were being hit by the investment uncertainty and currency fluctuations was forthcoming.
​By four months in, I was sick of being told that Brexit was "the will of the people", whilst seeing previously profitable businesses (including customers and suppliers of mine who I had excellent working relationships with) restructuring or dissolving entirely because of adverse trading conditions, and talking to friends who were losing their jobs directly as a result of the lack of clarity about the future.​​I'd forgotten all that with time, become ennured to the medium term damage, come to let the BS from our elected representatives & the newspapers wash over me, and accepted that this was our lot as a nation.

But watching that video brought it all back, and I'm still irked by how things have played out, in the end pragmatically having a foot in both camps was more torture than just picking a side and sticking to it.

Rant Over.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

J.C. ................ here we go again.


----------



## RobinBHM

I'm not sure devaluing the pound actually helps exports much....UK manufacturing uses a lot of imported components.

Brexit was an opportunity for change in this country, however I would suggest that opportunity existed whilst being an EU member. Germany is a world leader in technology and engineering.

I actually think Brexit is a red herring, the decline in engineering in the UK has been a direct result of domestic politics.

I remember a few years ago a business owner who runs an engineering company said his company had suffered in the past because the Single Market meant huge competition and European companies who had invested more in technology were able to produce better quality at lower prices. That spurred his company to invest and his company was beating the European competition. He also said that the leading UK manufacturers were becoming more competitive than Chinese engineering....obv at the higher end.


----------



## Jelly

RobinBHM said:


> Brexit was an opportunity for change in this country, however I would suggest that opportunity existed whilst being an EU member. Germany is a world leader in technology and engineering.
> 
> ...
> 
> I actually think Brexit is a red herring, the decline in engineering in the UK has been a direct result of domestic politics.



I would fully agree with the latter point, I suppose that's the Gist of my Post, when push comes to shove, the UK government doesn't want to (or isn't able to) support those sectors in a meaningful way. 

Too much value appears to have been placed on non-productive and abstract financial services at the detriment of almost every other area of the economy; which combined with the lack of infrastructure investment which would have supported increased manufacturing growth, put us where we are today.



And yes, there wasn't necessarily any need to leave the EU to make a positive change; *But* it was a moment which presented both some unique opportunities to think differently and be radical in our approach, gave the government a really strong impetus to make change and highlighted a national appetite for it.

However, if the government was willing to go all in with that kind of approach (similar to the controversial but highly effective Heavy Chemical Initiative, which South Korea persued in the 70's) being free of EU state aid rules would give them a lot more room to manoeuvre (state aid rules wouldn't necessarily prevent it, but would make it slow and unable to be responsive), in terms of providing direct and targeted support or investment funding to business in order to drive the change they really want to see.


----------



## paulrbarnard




----------



## Jelly

paulrbarnard said:


>



It's highly unusual for Boris to be personally announcing his government's policy towards UK manufacturing in a musical number...

But I'll credit him this, if the whole prime minister thing doesn't work out he's got a much more promising career as a drag artist than I would have thought!


----------



## Noel

Noel said:


> *Folks, please take note. This not a C19 thread and will not turn into a C19 thread. Vaccines in the detailed context of recent EU-UK events, yes. Vaccine rollout and efficacy, no. C19 and if it's a sniffy nose or a life threatening disease or a wintery red nose, no.
> If some feel it really necessary to go off piste then it'll be a simple matter of excluding you from the thread.*



*This not a C19 thread and will not turn into a C19 thread
Vaccine rollout and efficacy, no.
If some feel it really necessary to go off piste, posts will be removed, then it'll be a simple matter of excluding you from the thread.*


----------



## D_W

Jelly said:


> It's highly unusual for Boris to be personally announcing his government's policy towards UK manufacturing in a musical number...
> 
> But I'll credit him this, if the whole prime minister thing doesn't work out he's got a much more promising career as a drag artist than I would have thought!



Bright blonde hair and maybe a "woo" and he could do some pro wrestling over here. 

Or host an outdoors show. The hair is unusual.

boris doppelganger


----------



## D_W

Does he tell fish stories?


----------



## Jelly

D_W said:


> Bright blonde hair and maybe a "woo" and he could do some pro wrestling over here.
> 
> Or host an outdoors show. The hair is unusual.
> 
> boris doppelganger



Honestly I would pay to see former and politicians face off in pro wrestling matches... 

Maybe someone should suggest it as a charity fundraiser?

Alternatively, maybe I just need to follow more Taiwanese politics.

It's certainly very... spirited, you might say.


----------



## billw

I don't know about the exact implementation of these new rules because all my stuff from Banggood is arriving from China with no problem, no duty or VAT paperwork. Admittedly the last thing I bought cost me £30 and the customs declaration said £3.18.


----------



## D_W

Their fighting style is very unusual!! They look really calm while fighting, but at least their legislators are young enough to do it, unlike ours.


----------



## Jelly

D_W said:


> Their fighting style is very unusual!! They look really calm while fighting, but at least their legislators are young enough to do it, unlike ours.



It is rather unsettling isn't it.

For contrast, see the Ugandans who seem to go for a cross between pro-wrestling (chairs and all) and a brawl at a shriner convention!


----------



## D_W

That's a little more like it. At least they have expressions on their faces. Makes them look a little less serial killer to me.


----------



## sploo

billw said:


> I don't know about the exact implementation of these new rules because all my stuff from Banggood is arriving from China with no problem, no duty or VAT paperwork. Admittedly the last thing I bought cost me £30 and the customs declaration said £3.18.


For the moment at least, the large volume (and "creatively valued on the paperwork") mail coming from China does appear to be slipping under the radar. I do wonder if there will be a crackdown on it at some point (and if that would even be feasible).


----------



## marcros

I would say that most Chinese stuff does seem to slip through. It is strange because I can almost guarantee that not a single US thing ever gets to me without a charge, and often they have been inspected too. Same with Australian items. They used to be a bit hit and miss, but the last couple came with a bill.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

I've always felt that wars and conflicts should be settled by each side sending its champion to fight for the cause.

Cheaper, only one person ends up dead or seriously wounded, much quicker than normal wars.

The added benefit is that normal political behaviours - half truths, selective statistics, sometimes just simple lies have no part in such a conflict.


----------



## doctor Bob

OK, go on then, I'll wrestle Jacob to settle it.
Having said that I bet he's a wirey one and got some strength, maybe in a few years would be better.

Definately not Noel, you know what the Irish are like, he's probably been in more bare knuckle fights than I've had hot dinners.


----------



## selectortone

billw said:


> I don't know about the exact implementation of these new rules because all my stuff from Banggood is arriving from China with no problem, no duty or VAT paperwork. Admittedly the last thing I bought cost me £30 and the customs declaration said £3.18.


Shhhhhhhhhhh!!!


----------



## D_W

billw said:


> I don't know about the exact implementation of these new rules because all my stuff from Banggood is arriving from China with no problem, no duty or VAT paperwork. Admittedly the last thing I bought cost me £30 and the customs declaration said £3.18.



What would a 30 pound parcel bring -6 pounds of revenue? Probably safe on the small things for quite some time as the customs folks know where they make their money. 

We do have things that require duties in the states, but they're usually archaic competition-related things (like a 9% increase on the price of japanese guitars, and on an individual basis - someone buying a guitar from japan - only over a fairly high value threshold)


----------



## sploo

D_W said:


> What would a 30 pound parcel bring -6 pounds of revenue? Probably safe on the small things for quite some time as the customs folks know where they make their money.
> 
> We do have things that require duties in the states, but they're usually archaic competition-related things (like a 9% increase on the price of japanese guitars, and on an individual basis - someone buying a guitar from japan - only over a fairly high value threshold)


As far as I recall, there was an exemption whereby anything under about £19 was ignored (though I heard that had now been stopped).

For small value deliveries that come via the normal postal service (i.e. not with a major courier), Royal Mail would charge you the duty and VAT (and VAT on the duty), plus a handling fee of £8. Obviously (as they're a percentage) the duty and VAT on low value deliveries wasn't a big deal, but the £8 handling fee kinda took the urine.


----------



## D_W

yeah, that's a rough fee. 

Those kinds of things develop here in the states when an agency decides that fees and such will make up a large part of their operating budget. It doesn't take long for certain parts of that to go away and the whole policy (self-funding agencies) is neutered. 

Some of our regulatory bodies are taking on a policy of enforcement rather than fee based compliance now, though - I guess they're a "business", too. Government business. 

Took me a little while to get up to speed with the whole customs thing on ebay "please sell me X and Y separate, and ship all in X container with receipt from sale, but not much description". 

Um, no. 

Usually requested after the sale. I don't doctor customs (But don't sell much international now, either). The idea that something you're selling at a minor loss or clearing a couple of dollars on should come with fraud and some oddball refinagling of paperwork is wee.


----------



## Jonm

billw said:


> I don't know about the exact implementation of these new rules because all my stuff from Banggood is arriving from China with no problem, no duty or VAT paperwork. Admittedly the last thing I bought cost me £30 and the customs declaration said £3.18.


I think the new rules apply to goods from EU, there is no change to goods from China.


----------



## Noel

Noel said:


> Brexit going well in Larne:











Brexit: Animal-based food checks at ports suspended


Arlene Foster denounces "threats" against staff checking on animal and food products at Larne and Belfast.



t.co


----------



## sploo

D_W said:


> yeah, that's a rough fee.
> 
> Those kinds of things develop here in the states when an agency decides that fees and such will make up a large part of their operating budget. It doesn't take long for certain parts of that to go away and the whole policy (self-funding agencies) is neutered.


I suspect we'll start to see much more of an issue with fees on imports from the EU to the UK now. There's a good German based vendor of musicians kit (www.thomann.de) that recently put up a detailed page explaining what they were having to do with regard to shipping to the UK. I can't find the specific page right now but it detailed a similar small paperwork charge for orders under £135 (orders over that have different UK import rules). It's not huge, but a rough calculation told me that a £130 order would cost ~£144 (about an 11% increase). Not a big sum of cash on one order, but it all adds up if every such small order from the EU is hit similarly.


----------



## Noel

sploo said:


> I suspect we'll start to see much more of an issue with fees on imports from the EU to the UK now. There's a good German based vendor of musicians kit (www.thomann.de) that recently put up a detailed page explaining what they were having to do with regard to shipping to the UK. I can't find the specific page right now but it detailed a similar small paperwork charge for orders under £135 (orders over that have different UK import rules). It's not huge, but a rough calculation told me that a £130 order would cost ~£144 (about an 11% increase). Not a big sum of cash on one order, but it all adds up if every such small order from the EU is hit similarly.



Is that free of MWSt? VAT on top upon entry into GB?


----------



## sploo

Jonm said:


> I think the new rules apply to goods from EU, there is no change to goods from China.


Not specifically Brexit related, but this (EU 2021 ending €22 import exemption; Import OSS returns) contains the details of the removal of the duty free limit.

How policing this is going to work (in theory anything sent to the UK - e.g. from China should already be subject to VAT) - I don't know.


----------



## Droogs

SWMBO told me this morning that the legal rules regarding animal welfare in farming in the uk were revoked last night. Ah well , welcome to the 51st state


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> Is that free of MWSt? VAT on top upon entry into GB?


I believe that Thomann are doing the UK VAT collection for orders <£135; so they'll remove the German VAT, charge the UK VAT, add a fee for the hassle of the UK related paperwork, and send it. Over £135 the rules are different; plus I guess those sort of orders would likely go via a courier; who will charge their own fees for the paperwork.

I don't know exactly how a low value (e.g. tens of GBP) package will be marked for shipping into the UK; I mean, how do the authorities know if the EU seller has already collected the UK VAT on behalf of HMRC? I assume that would be stated on paperwork - but paperwork with every small value order is going to be a nightmare of bureaucracy and extra cost.

I found this (How a New VAT Rule From BREXIT Now Impacts Every US Seller Shipping to UK Customers) useful article for US based sellers. Whilst it mentions that if the seller fails to collect the UK VAT from the buyer (for <£135 orders) it may result in delays and the package being returned to the seller, it doesn't indicate how the UK system will know whether the VAT had been collected or not (unless there is some accompanying paperwork).

All sounds like a huge mess TBH.


----------



## sploo

Droogs said:


> SWMBO told me this morning that the legal rules regarding animal welfare in farming in the uk were revoked last night. Ah well , welcome to the 51st state


Couldn't immediately find any articles about a related vote in parliament; but it wouldn't be surprising - they've already started to roll back protections on workers' rights, food standards, and protections for the NHS in votes in recent weeks (all things that were definitely Project Fear and would never happen).


----------



## Rorschach

Droogs said:


> SWMBO told me this morning that the legal rules regarding animal welfare in farming in the uk were revoked last night. Ah well , welcome to the 51st state



Do you think UK farmers are chomping at the bit to start whipping their animals and it was only the EU that could hold back their bloodlust


----------



## Blackswanwood

Droogs said:


> SWMBO told me this morning that the legal rules regarding animal welfare in farming in the uk were revoked last night. Ah well , welcome to the 51st state


I cannot find anything in any of the news or online about this Droogs - do you know specifically what it was as I thought there was a commitment to maintain if not strengthen them (for instance banning some live exports).


----------



## Droogs

From what she said it is to do with what can be sold. So basically foreign meats do not need to meet the same ethical standards as uk produced products. So the way is almost clear for yankee chicken and beef but uk farmers still have to follow eu rules so a really level playing field not

will see if i can get the source from her when she gets back in as I have apparently shrunk the arrse of all her jeans when i did the washing


----------



## Jelly

Rorschach said:


> Do you think UK farmers are chomping at the bit to start whipping their animals and it was only the EU that could hold back their bloodlust



I'm not worried about our farmers animal husbandry practices... Certainly the ones I know care deeply about their herds/flocks and treat their animals very well.

I am quite concerned by our farmers being put out of business by the kind of faceless corporate agribusiness which would be only too happy to lower welfare standards to make a quick buck.


----------



## Noel

sploo said:


> I believe that Thomann are doing the UK VAT collection for orders <£135; so they'll remove the German VAT, charge the UK VAT, add a fee for the hassle of the UK related paperwork, and send it. Over £135 the rules are different; plus I guess those sort of orders would likely go via a courier; who will charge their own fees for the paperwork.
> 
> I don't know exactly how a low value (e.g. tens of GBP) package will be marked for shipping into the UK; I mean, how do the authorities know if the EU seller has already collected the UK VAT on behalf of HMRC? I assume that would be stated on paperwork - but paperwork with every small value order is going to be a nightmare of bureaucracy and extra cost.
> 
> I found this (How a New VAT Rule From BREXIT Now Impacts Every US Seller Shipping to UK Customers) useful article for US based sellers. Whilst it mentions that if the seller fails to collect the UK VAT from the buyer (for <£135 orders) it may result in delays and the package being returned to the seller, it doesn't indicate how the UK system will know whether the VAT had been collected or not (unless there is some accompanying paperwork).
> 
> All sounds like a huge mess TBH.


. 

HMRC’s plan (and nothing to do with the TCA agreed on Dec 24th BTW) was for the package/parcel to have some kind of “VAT accounted for“ stamp/bar code/QR code. No idea if it ever happened. 
Of course the courier/RM etc may need to charge to scan the code, you know how it is....... Or rather, “can we charge for that” ? Damn sures we will....”.


----------



## Rorschach

Jelly said:


> I'm not worried about our farmers animal husbandry practices... Certainly the ones I know care deeply about their herds/flocks and treat their animals very well.
> 
> I am quite concerned by our farmers being put out of business by the kind of faceless corporate agribusiness which would be only too happy to lower welfare standards to make a quick buck.



Ultimately that will be down to the consumer. If you buy meat from a supplier with high welfare standards then the farmers won't go out of business. Meat in this country is very clearly marked as to country of origin and welfare practice. Personally I buy (almost) exclusively British meat and the meats that are not British (bacon, sausage, cured meats) come from EU countries. 
While I am not against things like for example chlorine rinsing of meat as practised by a few producers in the US (note that all bagged salads we buy are chlorine washed so it's nothing crazy) I have no interested in buying American chicken when I can buy British chicken very cheaply.


----------



## Droogs

Yeah but they are also bringing in legislation allowing meat that is bulk imported and has its final packaging put on in the uk (and this can be jus a cardboad loop) to be marked as british.


----------



## Rorschach

Droogs said:


> Yeah but they are also bringing in legislation allowing meat that is bulk imported and has its final packaging put on in the uk (and this can be jus a cardboad loop) to be marked as british.



I can't find any articles to support this, can you link to some? 
If that is the case then there is no way the meat could be marked produced in UK if it is simply packed here. A change of packaging would have to occur and I could change my buying habits appropriately.


----------



## Droogs

I'll see if I can dig out the piece I read about the meat packaging, it was a while ago when they were talking about a us deal and was mentioned by some conservitive being interviewed, may take a while as I am doing online work at the mo and just dipping in here, but will get it to you


----------



## selectortone

Rorschach said:


> Do you think UK farmers are chomping at the bit to start whipping their animals and it was only the EU that could hold back their bloodlust


The legislation was there to prevent the import of meat from countries with poor animal welfare practices. It's not so much the chlorination of chicken but why it is necessary - i.e. low hygiene standards.


----------



## Rorschach

selectortone said:


> The legislation was there to prevent the import of meat from countries with poor animal welfare practices. It's not so much the chlorination of chicken but why it is necessary - i.e. low hygiene standards.



I guess it depends if that is important to you. Personally I think the US has on balance very high standards of food hygiene (you can't buy Eggs covered in poop for instance) and the washing of chicken could be seen to be a sensible preventative measure rather than simply covering for poor practice (two sides to every story) and it is something we do here but not to meat.
It doesn't worry me, but if it worries you campaign on it to get the laws you want enacted and of course most importantly, don't buy US chicken, if there is no market for it, they won't sell it.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> Personally I think the US has on balance very high standards of food hygiene (you can't buy Eggs covered in poop for instance) and the washing of chicken could be seen to be a sensible preventative measure rather than simply covering for poor practice (two sides to every story) and it is something we do here but not to meat.


Have a read of the FDA guidelines; lovely bits such as the acceptable percentage of rodent hair in pasta.

US food standards have for decades been greatly influenced by large corporations; i.e. to keep costs down.

Washing of chicken in chemicals _could_ be seen as a preventative measure; but that's not the reason it's there - it's to allow for cutting costs by reducing standards of cleanliness during production.

I guess the pertinent questions are

1. Do we believe the Tories are interested in food welfare (and the welfare of the population in general), or do we believe they'd be more interested in cutting corners in order to increase profit for their mates?
2. Do we believe the general public will take enough interest in what's in their food, and buy good quality produce over reaching for the cheaper item (regardless of the welfare/health standards of that item)?

I think I can be fairly confident of the answers to both of those questions; which is why good legislation is important.


----------



## Rorschach

Ah so it's just political point scoring again.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> Ah so it's just political point scoring again.


No - it's about reality; the likely outcomes based on history and available evidence.

"Freed" from the shackles of joint regulation, a UK government could reshape rules based on their own political dogma. Politicians from the economic right wing end of the spectrum tend to prefer small government, low taxes, and lower regulation. All of which sound good; except that it does mean reduction in social services, and more freedom for the unscrupulous to act in their own self interest. Given that such (unscrupulous) people exist, it's a pretty sure thing that reduction of regulation (that might allow corner cutting in order to reduce costs) will be welcomed and utilised.

For example; the working time directive doesn't prevent an employee working longer hours, but it prevents a employer from _forcing_ an employee to work longer hours. Why would you seek to remove it unless you wanted to give employers the "freedom" to enforce longer working hours on employees (given that you could currently ask them sign a waiver and work longer hours if required). All part of the same attitude to reducing regulation.


----------



## Jelly

Rorschach said:


> Ultimately that will be down to the consumer. If you buy meat from a supplier with high welfare standards then the farmers won't go out of business.


This underestimates the power of retailers and wholesalers in the food supply chain.

People on the whole will buy whatever is conveniently available to them, and when push comes to shove many if not most will discriminate on price. That you and I care enough to be selective is almost wholly irrelevant to the national trend.

Once one major retailer chooses to break ranks and sell lower welfare standard meat, it will initiate a race to the bottom where others are forced to follow. That will quickly squeeze wholesale prices for British producers (who from the sounds of it won't even have the option to lower standards, so are doubly screwed).

The ultimate outcome will be to force whatever British producers survive to increase prices and sell as a premium product to make up for the demand shortfall; driving up prices for consumers like myself (and yourself) who do care enough to discriminate on welfare/quality.


Net result in the long term:

less and poorer UK farmers,
greater proportion of revenue from UK food sales is diverted overseas worsening our already dismal balance of trade,
prices of high welfare meat will be inflated,
after an initial price drop the retail prices (but not wholesale prices) of low welfare meat will inevitably stabilise back around the old high welfare prices _because that's the level the market can support._
I struggle to see how that would be positive for the UK.


----------



## D_W

Large social benefits don't go away. From the fence in the middle, I see right wingers now in a fight to prevent more. Nobody takes anything significant away, even in the states. The two most favorable changes for seniors have even come under Republican admins. Medicare part d and the Medicare advantage type plan. Why? Because the two parties fight over what they can get their names on. If democrats have a priority and Republicans can sponsor the bill first, it's like stealing someone's lunch money.


----------



## Rorschach

You act like we don't have a democratically elected government that (since Brexit) is even more accountable to the electorate than it has been in probably 30 years.

Don't want chlorinated chicken, don't want reduced regulation on working hours, campaign for it, stand for Parliament yourself or support those who share your views. It's all very well sitting and saying "Oh we can't trust the Tories", well do something about it then. Since the Tories have been in power for 29 out of the last 42 years (and the remaining 13 were Tory-lite Labour) it would seem that in general they are trusted a lot more than their opposing parties.


----------



## selectortone

Rorschach said:


> I guess it depends if that is important to you. Personally I think blah blah blah.......



I was simply pointing out that: "Do you think UK farmers are chomping at the bit to start whipping their animals and it was only the EU that could hold back their bloodlust" was barking up entirely the wrong tree. Nice deflection...


----------



## Rorschach

selectortone said:


> I was simply pointing out that: "Do you think UK farmers are chomping at the bit to start whipping their animals and it was only the EU that could hold back their bloodlust" was barking up entirely the wrong tree. Nice deflection...



No deflection, I was addressing your point.


----------



## MikeJhn

Just had a case with PayPal declined, the seller provided a Royal Mail tracking No that was false, but showed delivery was achieved, despite the non existence of Customs and Excise information PayPal have upheld on the side of the seller, so moral of the story don't buy anything through PayPal that is outside the UK and expect protection by using them.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> You act like we don't have a democratically elected government that (since Brexit) is even more accountable to the electorate than it has been in probably 30 years.


How's that working out for you?

You know; given the recent votes in parliament to remove protections on selling off the NHS, reducing worker's rights, etc.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying "the other lot" aren't likely just as scummy in their own ways, but platitudes such as "accountable" are fairly meaningless in the face of what our elected government is actually doing.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> No deflection, I was addressing your point.


Probably falls neatly under this Appeal to Extremes though.


----------



## Jelly

Rorschach said:


> You act like we don't have a democratically elected government that (since Brexit) is even more accountable to the electorate than it has been in probably 30 years.



Our system of government now effectively selects our rulers via a national popularity contest which is won by a concerted effort over several months to deflect people from looking at each party's failings by demonising the other side.

There is no practical mechanism for us to hold individual politicians to account in a meaningful way; the only time in living memory a UK government been held to account over a policy decision was over the Poll Tax, and that was achieved as a result of a massive campaign of civil disobedience, and some on outright rioting in the streets.

That's pretty dysfunctional really, and we can do better as a society.




Rorschach said:


> campaign for it, stand for Parliament yourself or support those who share your views.



I have previously pointed out that I do a lot of this... My missus actually jokes about the fact that I'll inevitably end up standing for parliament one day, but realistically I simply don't have the means to commit to doing that even if I wanted to.

In any case your point is brought up frequently enough in political conversations to be a trope, and invariably it comes across as someone making a BS deflection by accusing their opponents of failing to take personal responsibility, to derail the thread of discussion and disguise that they're unable to come up with a valid counterargument.


----------



## selectortone

Rorschach said:


> No deflection, I was addressing your point.


My point was that the change in legislation is not aimed at British Farmers as you implied. But of course you know that, you just can't admit it.


----------



## Rorschach

selectortone said:


> My point was that the change in legislation is not aimed at British Farmers as you implied. But of course you know that, you just can't admit it.



I know that, my original post was a little tongue in cheek of course, I don't actually think the legislation was to stop farmer beating their cattle. When you replied about the nature of the legislation I then addressed that point, that's not deflection, that's just carrying on the conversation.


----------



## selectortone

Rorschach said:


> I know that, my original post was a little tongue in cheek of course, I don't actually think the legislation was to stop farmer beating their cattle. When you replied about the nature of the legislation I then addressed that point, that's not deflection, that's just carrying on the conversation.


Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.


----------



## Rorschach

selectortone said:


> Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.



Are we getting to the point that you are just arguing on principle now? If that's the case then fine, but at least be up front about it otherwise there is no point in any of these conversations.


----------



## billw

Droogs said:


> Yeah but they are also bringing in legislation allowing meat that is bulk imported and has its final packaging put on in the uk (and this can be jus a cardboad loop) to be marked as british.



That is an absolute outrage if they allow it. There is no way you can import meat and say it's British produce, No way at all. Utterly unethical. 

I also feel that consumers are going to kick up a storm as will the media.


----------



## ivan

The USA has poor food hygiene standards, and has almost ten times the rate of food poisoning per 1000 population than the UK. Clorination of chicken won't harm you in the short term, but it hides low standards of poultry husbandry which also require regular use of antibiotics, a use no longer permitted here or in EU. Regular use of antibiotics as growth promoters, to keep low level infection of poorly raised birds at a minimum, is just about the best way to create antibiotic resistant bugs. As we are now close to bug resistance overcoming ALL antibiotics from over use, this affects your future health. You could die from a workshop cut pre antibiotics, and many did. This is just one example; there are other similar stories in the US livestock sector, that we definitely do not want to import, for public health reasons. Just in case you think I am a cuddly animal crusader, think again. I (a retired agronomist) usually buy eggs from caged hens. If the hens were that unhappy they'd go off lay and that affects profit so no one would use cages. "Free range" doesn't mean a wander round the farmyard; more like access to a small prison exercise yard. It certainly does not look like the pictures on the egg box! Animal welfare in the legislation sense relates to the practice of animal husbandry - the scientific techniques of animal production. Albeit that the RSPCA would investigate you for cruelty for too enthusiastically thrashing your stock with a large stick...


----------



## thetyreman

billw said:


> That is an absolute outrage if they allow it. There is no way you can import meat and say it's British produce, No way at all. Utterly unethical.
> 
> I also feel that consumers are going to kick up a storm as will the media.



agree, I will not stand for it personally, there will be huge protests about this subject.


----------



## Droogs

Her ladyship says it was to do with pre-prepared foods such as ping and takea away nuggets kind of thing. The meat can come in under the new lower standards and once processed into the "meal" can be then labled made in uk and does not have to declare origin of meat contents as being from US. It was apparently part to the uk trade deal paperwork and that the removal of the ethical treatment of farm animals by removing the acknowledgement that they can feel pain was the first part of the legislation needed to push through the laxer rules for importer of us meat here. She said it was part of somenting from PETA or one of the other animal things she looks at


----------



## selectortone

ivan said:


> The USA has poor food hygiene standards, and has almost ten times the rate of food poisoning per 1000 population than the UK. Clorination of chicken won't harm you in the short term, but it hides low standards of poultry husbandry which also require regular use of antibiotics, a use no longer permitted here or in EU. Regular use of antibiotics as growth promoters, to keep low level infection of poorly raised birds at a minimum, is just about the best way to create antibiotic resistant bugs. As we are now close to bug resistance overcoming ALL antibiotics from over use, this affects your future health. You could die from a workshop cut pre antibiotics, and many did. This is just one example; there are other similar stories in the US livestock sector, that we definitely do not want to import, for public health reasons. Just in case you think I am a cuddly animal crusader, think again. I (a retired agronomist) usually buy eggs from caged hens. If the hens were that unhappy they'd go off lay and that affects profit so no one would use cages. "Free range" doesn't mean a wander round the farmyard; more like access to a small prison exercise yard. It certainly does not look like the pictures on the egg box! Animal welfare in the legislation sense relates to the practice of animal husbandry - the scientific techniques of animal production. Albeit that the RSPCA would investigate you for cruelty for too enthusiastically thrashing your stock with a large stick...


But the Americans do have nice clean shiny eggs.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Jelly said:


> This underestimates the power of retailers and wholesalers in the food supply chain.



So when Uber was starting its "we're not a taxi company so we don't have to adhere to taxi company laws" business plan in the US, everyone there referred to it as "chickenisation" which I didn't understand because I thought Uber invented the practice of saying that its drivers were not employees, but independent contractors that had a contract with Uber; I learned that I was utterly wrong, they'd just stolen the idea from the chicken industry. 

Turns out, the entire chicken industry in the US is currently three companies that do to farmers what Uber does to drivers. In effect, it's a monopoly arrangement - if you're a US chicken farmer, you have a single company that you can deal with to get your chickens to market; the others won't deal with you or use the Irish Insurance trick of quoting a price that is so high it's silly. So you wind up in a contract with the chicken packing company that says who you buy chicks from, how you feed them, how much light they get per day, what vets you can use and what treatments they must administer, they (the packing company) design the coops you have to get a loan to build, and you have to sign up to an NDA so you can't publicly complain and you can't sue in court because the contract specifies an non-court arbitration mechanism for disputes. And you don't get a specified price for the chicken until after you ship it off, so you never earn enough to get out from under. It's a remarkably durable system (if you're a chicken packer). Agriculture in the US has a really high rate of deaths at work, mainly because of suicide, and chicken farmers top the tables for suicide. 

The laws on animal welfare prevent all of this from happening in Ireland or the EU in general. Removing them is like undoing your seatbelt while driving. It's not immediately fatal to do so, but if there wasn't a law against doing it, your annual deaths from road accidents goes up becuase Humans Gotta Human. Similarly, if you make it legal to do what has been done in the US, well, people will want to do it because it makes them a lot of money legally. 

From the point of view of your average person, this is really bad for farmers. But it's also really bad from the point of view of your average chicken eater because those companies want maximised profit, and producing chicken which is 100% safe to eat is expensive; and if they can control the rules of the game the way they do, well, you just say that 99% safe to eat is legal and away you go. 

I guess if you're a vegan who doesn't worry about farmers, it's not a big deal.


----------



## artie

selectortone said:


> But the Americans do have nice clean shiny eggs.


I eat nice shiny eggs as well.
Straight from the bum of my flock of truly free range hens.
All four of them roam free from dawn to dusk on nice clean grass.
When I say straight I do of course mean via pot or pan.


----------



## sploo

MarkDennehy said:


> The laws on animal welfare prevent all of this from happening in Ireland or the EU in general. Removing them is like undoing your seatbelt while driving. It's not immediately fatal to do so, but if there wasn't a law against doing it, your annual deaths from road accidents goes up becuase Humans Gotta Human. Similarly, if you make it legal to do what has been done in the US, well, people will want to do it because it makes them a lot of money legally.
> 
> From the point of view of your average person, this is really bad for farmers. But it's also really bad from the point of view of your average chicken eater because those companies want maximised profit, and producing chicken which is 100% safe to eat is expensive; and if they can control the rules of the game the way they do, well, you just say that 99% safe to eat is legal and away you go.


Perfectly summarised, and exemplifies the size/influence issue I brought up earlier in the thread; if individuals or corporations can influence national governments to relax standards (such that it allows them to increase profit) they will. A benefit of a large, lumbering organisation such as the EU is that it's just that much harder to influence, as you'd have to threaten/bribe/squeeze so many different people in so many different nations that it's just that bit more difficult to get the kind of power that you might have over a single national government. Note that I'm not claiming there's no corruption in the EU - far from it; just that it's harder for "The Chicken CoOp Inc Ltd Of-Your-Country" to massage enough MEPs to pass that chlorine hose bill that'll allow the CEO to buy another yacht this year


----------



## doctor Bob

I buy good food. I'm slim, but only because of my work and exercise, I eat like a horse.
A large proportion of the population don't care what they eat, you just have to look around.
Harlow is my local takeaway empire, gregs, street grazers, etc etc, it's an eyeopener.


----------



## MarkDennehy

BTW, just to abuse a deceased ungulate (to stay roughly on tone if not on theme), this is the kind of thing I was talking about with regard to Tesla:








NHTSA Makes Tesla Recall 133,951 Cars After Concluding They'll 'Inevitably' Fail


The 2012-2018 Model S and X had a memory issue that eventually kills the touch screen, which NHTSA deemed a safety issue.




www.roadandtrack.com


----------



## alexalexander

selectortone said:


> But the Americans do have nice clean shiny eggs.


 and remember that egg shells are porous and whatever they were washed in would have seeped inside.


----------



## RobinBHM

MarkDennehy said:


> Similarly, if you make it legal to do what has been done in the US, well, people will want to do it because it makes them a lot of money legally



I have nothing against legitimate discussions about Brexit, but what is frustrating is that the Leave campaign was made up of disparate groups. Some honestly believed UK would be better outside Europe.

However a significant amount of the Leave campaign was driven not by ideology but simple greed. 
Brexit is for a large part a vehicle for deregulation. Many of the Brexit so called think tanks are nothing more than lobby groups often funded by US libertarian groups.

Brexit removes the checks and balances from government, allowing the executive to avoid scrutiny and deregulate for self interest. Opening up the UK Market to USA food and private healthcare will result in lucrative deals for those with the right connections.

Brexit was sold as the UK getting back control, but it's really about those in power taking back control for personal gain. Covid emergency legislation was a rather good example of how deregulation enables contracts with no scrutiny.






Here is an extract from Desmog.com

"If you have detected a distinctly American flavour to the rampant lobbying in Westminster corridors over a Brexit deal, there is a good reason why.

A close look at the transatlantic connections of the London-based groups pushing for the most deregulated form of Brexit reveals strong ties to major US libertarian influencers. These include fossil fuel magnates the Koch brothers — known for funding climate science denial around the world — and the man who bankrolled Donald Trump’s campaign, Robert Mercer.

At the heart of this network lies a little-known power couple, Matthew and Sarah Elliott. Together, the husband and wife team connect senior members of the Leave campaign and groups pushing a libertarian free-market ideology from offices in Westminster’s Tufton Street to major US libertarian lobbyists and funders.

Collectively, the network aims to use Brexit as an opportunity to slash regulations in the UK, paving the way for a wide-ranging US-UK free-trade deal that could have disastrous consequences for the environment.

The current draft withdrawal agreement appears to try and provide some protection for the current level of environmental regulation — at least in principle. But politicians associated with this transatlantic network are lobbying hard for the draft deal to be scrapped, along with those protections.

This DeSmog UK investigation reveals the strength of the ties between Matthew and Sarah Elliott, UKlobbyists and politicians, and US groups with vested interests in fossil fuels keen to profit from deregulation.

It shows how organisations with strong ties to the Koch Brothers and Robert Mercer increased their political activities in the UK immediately before and after the Brexit referendum.

And it uncovers US libertarian spending patterns that show increased resources flowing into Europe prior to and around the time of the Brexit referendum, as pro-Brexit groups with ties to the Elliotts in the UK saw their budgets balloon."








Matthew and Sarah Elliott: How a UK Power Couple Links US Libertarians and Fossil Fuel Lobbyists to Brexit


If you have detected a distinctly American flavour to the rampant lobbying in Westminster corridors over a Brexit deal, there is a good reason why. A close look at the transatlantic connections of the London-based groups pushing for the most deregulated form of Brexit reveals strong ties to...




www.desmog.co.uk


----------



## sploo

RobinBHM said:


> I have nothing against legitimate discussions about Brexit, but what is frustrating is that the Leave campaign was made up of disparate groups. Some honestly believed UK would be better outside Europe.
> 
> However a significant amount of the Leave campaign was driven not by ideology but simple greed.
> Brexit is for a large part a vehicle for deregulation. Many of the Brexit so called think tanks are nothing more than lobby groups often funded by US libertarian groups.
> 
> Brexit removes the checks and balances from government, allowing the executive to avoid scrutiny and deregulate for self interest. Opening up the UK Market to USA food and private healthcare will result in lucrative deals for those with the right connections.
> 
> Brexit was sold as the UK getting back control, but it's really about those in power taking back control for personal gain. Covid emergency legislation was a rather good example of how deregulation enables contracts with no scrutiny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an extract from Desmog.com
> 
> "If you have detected a distinctly American flavour to the rampant lobbying in Westminster corridors over a Brexit deal, there is a good reason why.
> 
> A close look at the transatlantic connections of the London-based groups pushing for the most deregulated form of Brexit reveals strong ties to major US libertarian influencers. These include fossil fuel magnates the Koch brothers — known for funding climate science denial around the world — and the man who bankrolled Donald Trump’s campaign, Robert Mercer.
> 
> At the heart of this network lies a little-known power couple, Matthew and Sarah Elliott. Together, the husband and wife team connect senior members of the Leave campaign and groups pushing a libertarian free-market ideology from offices in Westminster’s Tufton Street to major US libertarian lobbyists and funders.
> 
> Collectively, the network aims to use Brexit as an opportunity to slash regulations in the UK, paving the way for a wide-ranging US-UK free-trade deal that could have disastrous consequences for the environment.
> 
> The current draft withdrawal agreement appears to try and provide some protection for the current level of environmental regulation — at least in principle. But politicians associated with this transatlantic network are lobbying hard for the draft deal to be scrapped, along with those protections.
> 
> This DeSmog UK investigation reveals the strength of the ties between Matthew and Sarah Elliott, UKlobbyists and politicians, and US groups with vested interests in fossil fuels keen to profit from deregulation.
> 
> It shows how organisations with strong ties to the Koch Brothers and Robert Mercer increased their political activities in the UK immediately before and after the Brexit referendum.
> 
> And it uncovers US libertarian spending patterns that show increased resources flowing into Europe prior to and around the time of the Brexit referendum, as pro-Brexit groups with ties to the Elliotts in the UK saw their budgets balloon."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew and Sarah Elliott: How a UK Power Couple Links US Libertarians and Fossil Fuel Lobbyists to Brexit
> 
> 
> If you have detected a distinctly American flavour to the rampant lobbying in Westminster corridors over a Brexit deal, there is a good reason why. A close look at the transatlantic connections of the London-based groups pushing for the most deregulated form of Brexit reveals strong ties to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.desmog.co.uk


Chilling, but absolutely no surprises. The drive for deregulation for the purposes of profit was pretty clear right from the start of the Brexit campaigning; it's just taken time to unweave the threads of exactly who was funding what.


----------



## McAldo

My DPD Local parcel to Italy got returned to me for the third time.
Even DPD customer care have given up on it, and insist they would like to send me a refund.
I guess it is just getting expensive for them to keep collecting it just to give up because of delays at the HUB. They will not give me any details but looking at the tracking it seems every time the thing gets delayed, so I guess it costs them too much to keep it in the warehouse or in a truck queueing.

What a pain in the backside..
I will need to try some alternative service without even knowing if it will make any difference.
I guess an air delivery would work, but it would also cost double the value of the item (an old floor tom drum which is not made anymore, my friend is in love with it because it is a perfect match for his old drumset. As a musician I appreciate that, but surely this is turning into a nightmare).


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> Ultimately that will be down to the consumer. I......


Except for those who don't know what they are getting or can't afford premium prices.
Relaxing regulations affects the poorest and most disadvantaged first. It also gives greater economic power to those who want to reduce standards and it becomes a downward spiral. 
It's an old story, twas ever thus.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Except for those who don't know what they are getting or can't afford premium prices.
> Relaxing regulations affects the poorest and most disadvantaged first. It also gives greater economic power to those who want to reduce standards and it becomes a downward spiral.
> It's an old story, twas ever thus.



 You think I can afford premium prices!


----------



## jcassidy

sploo said:


> I believe that Thomann are doing the UK VAT collection for orders <£135; so they'll remove the German VAT, charge the UK VAT, add a fee for the hassle of the UK related paperwork, and send it. Over £135 the rules are different; plus I guess those sort of orders would likely go via a courier; who will charge their own fees for the paperwork.



The £135 limit is because, after this, HMRC will apply customs and duties, and that's an entire encyclopedia of rates and levies and it's not worth Thomann's time tryingn to figure out which HMRC may or may not apply to any given pakcage.



> I don't know exactly how a low value (e.g. tens of GBP) package will be marked for shipping into the UK; I mean, how do the authorities know if the EU seller has already collected the UK VAT on behalf of HMRC? I assume that would be stated on paperwork - but paperwork with every small value order is going to be a nightmare of bureaucracy and extra cost.



I've found that for items under the VAT limit (£22 or thereabouts), I actually save money on Amazon.co.uk as they remove the UK VAT and there is no Irish VAT applicable. Everything over £22 is not worthwhile buying. Can't wait for Amazon to open a fulfillment centre in Dublin - surely Amazon.ie is not far away!


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> You think I can afford premium prices!


It's enough to turn you vegetarian! Grass is a bit boring though - must dig out some grass recipes.


----------



## sploo

jcassidy said:


> The £135 limit is because, after this, HMRC will apply customs and duties, and that's an entire encyclopedia of rates and levies and it's not worth Thomann's time tryingn to figure out which HMRC may or may not apply to any given pakcage.


Yep. At least there is a bit of common sense there (no extra duty on orders <£135).


----------



## Droogs

Rorschach said:


> You think I can afford premium prices!


If anything in your shopping cart is branded with anything other than "Tesco Basics", Then yeah you can afford premium prices as far as about 9 million others in the UK are concerned.

just reread that and it comes accross as a personal dig which is not meant Rorschach - collective you/we sort of thing


----------



## doctor Bob

Don't get me started on food, diet, health.
This country is full of grazers, used to be 3 meals a day, now it's just graze all day long.
Eating crrap is a habit.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

There are clearly deficiences in US agriculture. But in the UK most agricultural output is controlled by the major 5 supermarket chains that account for 75% of food sales.

The risks associated with poor agricultural practices have not been properly communicated - the result is fear mongering over chlorine washed chicken, rather than an informed debate over all real risks.

The government has control over food standards, *BUT it needs to take its obligations seriously. * 

For the general public price is a major issue, and supermarkets will seek lowest possible cost suppliers. The public are unable to differentiate on the basis of appearance.

Those campaining for better standards have not put their message across in a way which motivates all to demand better and hold the government to account.


----------



## Rorschach

Droogs said:


> If anything in your shopping cart is branded with anything other than "Tesco Basics", Then yeah you can afford premium prices as far as about 9 million others in the UK are concerned.
> 
> just reread that and it comes accross as a personal dig which is not meant Rorschach - collective you/we sort of thing



Tesco basics, living the dream!  

I didn't take it personally but I know what you mean.


----------



## Noel

Unfettered access my aris....
Take back control of our borders (except the new internal one we agreed/suggested to but didn't understand)
Gove writes to Maros Sefcovic: remember that protocol thing or whatever it was we signed last year? You know, the one we didn't understand? Calling it the NI Protocol instead of the NI Backstop doesn't seem to have worked..............can we talk about it again?


----------



## RobinBHM

Noel said:


> Unfettered access my aris....
> Take back control of our borders (except the new internal one we agreed/suggested to but didn't understand)
> Gove writes to Maros Sefcovic: remember that protocol thing or whatever it was we signed last year? You know, the one we didn't understand? Calling it the NI Protocol instead of the NI Backstop doesn't seem to have worked..............can we talk about it again?



sadly the gaslighting carries on:

this is a tweet posted this morning from an MP whose surname is "pine"

"Glad to see U.K. government is now engaging with GB/Northern Ireland trade issues. They need to smooth out all internal U.K. trade so it runs as before January. The EU should not be allowed to damage it"

this is the reason brexiters should not be allowed to claim: "its time to let it go"........dishonesty should be called out. dishonesty is not democracy


----------



## Noel

RobinBHM said:


> sadly the gaslighting carries on:
> 
> this is a tweet posted this morning from an MP whose surname is "pine"
> 
> "Glad to see U.K. government is now engaging with GB/Northern Ireland trade issues. They need to smooth out all internal U.K. trade so it runs as before January. The EU should not be allowed to damage it"
> 
> this is the reason brexiters should not be allowed to claim: "its time to let it go"........dishonesty should be called out. dishonesty is not democracy




The fish Twitterer?
Run as before? Kinda obvious answer to that. Good thing he and his ilk were totally aware of the implications and the damage that was on the horizon, eh?
A16 dramatics again I wonder?


----------



## Jacob

RobinBHM said:


> ...... They need to smooth out all internal U.K. trade so it runs as before January. The EU should not be allowed to damage it......


Widely predicted that brexit problems would be blamed on the EU, or everybody/anybody other than Johnson/Gove/Farage.
Personally I blame the electorate for being suckers and believing the right wing media


----------



## Noel

Here’s 1978, MPG and decimal things:


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> Here’s 1978, MPG and decimal things:



The last fella spent 10 years fighting in 6 year war. Scandalous I tell ya. Next they'll want to rename it to World War 50.8! *

* Think about it


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> The last fella spent 10 years fighting in 6 year war. Scandalous I tell ya. Next they'll want to rename it to World War 50.8! *
> 
> * Think about it


er - give us a clue


----------



## Distinterior

2 (inches) = 50.8 (mm.)


----------



## D_W

that lady at 1:45 in the video was a visionary. I think that was an early tesla!!

(she only drives her cart 4 mph, but she's can still run circles around the EU vaccine delivery.).


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> sadly the gaslighting carries on:
> 
> this is a tweet posted this morning from an MP whose surname is "pine"
> 
> "Glad to see U.K. government is now engaging with GB/Northern Ireland trade issues. They need to smooth out all internal U.K. trade so it runs as before January. The EU should not be allowed to damage it"
> 
> this is the reason brexiters should not be allowed to claim: "its time to let it go"........dishonesty should be called out. dishonesty is not democracy



it's time to let it go ..........


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> it's time to let it go ..........


The time to let it go will be when we are all basking in the obvious benefits of brexit and wondering what all the fuss was about.
No benefits have shown up yet but it's only 5 years of negotiations so far. What's the hurry?
Come to think - I can't remember what the benefits were supposed to be. A bit weird - were we all hypnotised somehow?


----------



## Daniel2

Whole debacle was an excercise in mass obfuscation


----------



## Noel

Daniel2 said:


> Whole debacle was an excercise in mass obfuscation



As somebody said this morning:

Boris Johnson said he'd never agree an Irish Sea border, then agreed it, denied he'd agreed what he'd agreed, then implemented it...& now says there must not be an Irish Sea border.


----------



## sploo

Noel said:


> As somebody said this morning:
> 
> Boris Johnson said he'd never agree an Irish Sea border, then agreed it, denied he'd agreed what he'd agreed, then implemented it...& now says there must not be an Irish Sea border.


To be fair, he doesn't even know how many kids he's got, so complex international trade agreements must be a bit of a stretch.


----------



## Droogs

i really can't believe he has any! he must have shares/access in rohipnol, only rational explanation or visitied a lot of coma hospitals


----------



## Jake

Noel said:


> As somebody said this morning:
> 
> Boris Johnson said he'd never agree an Irish Sea border, then agreed it, denied he'd agreed what he'd agreed, then implemented it...& now says there must not be an Irish Sea border.



He got over it the best you can, just like Bob says.


----------



## Ollie78

I am thinking the only way Boris is still in power is because he has so much dirt on everyone else in the parliament that no one will dare to actually get rid of him.

It was fairly harmless fun and games when he was Mayor of London as the damage was limited a bit, but this current shambles is baffling in the extreme.

I will never forget the faces of those brexiteer donkeys at the press conference on the morning of their "victory" like a bunch of 5 year olds trying to explain how they didn`t cut each others hair whilst holding the scissors and standing in a pile of hair.
They never for one moment expected to win, it was a gamble for personal gain and they actually followed it through just to save face. Muppets.

Ollie


----------



## sploo

Ollie78 said:


> I am thinking the only way Boris is still in power is because he has so much dirt on everyone else in the parliament that no one will dare to actually get rid of him.
> 
> It was fairly harmless fun and games when he was Mayor of London as the damage was limited a bit, but this current shambles is baffling in the extreme.
> 
> I will never forget the faces of those brexiteer donkeys at the press conference on the morning of their "victory" like a bunch of 5 year olds trying to explain how they didn`t cut each others hair whilst holding the scissors and standing in a pile of hair.
> They never for one moment expected to win, it was a gamble for personal gain and they actually followed it through just to save face. Muppets.
> 
> Ollie


I don't think he has dirt on others; it's basically due to a process of:

1. Promise the country an attractive impossibility (that you know you can't possibly deliver, but it doesn't matter because you won't win anyway)
2. Win, unexpectedly
3. Run away and leave others to clear up the mess
4. Unsurprisingly, others (who have some shred of honesty and decency) fail to deliver the impossible (because, you know, reality)
5. The public get annoyed waiting for their attractive impossibility
6. Come back as the only choice left
7. Eradicate any remotely competent or decent remaining MPs from your party
8. Promise the electorate you'll definitely deliver the attractive impossibility
9. Get elected
10. Surround yourself with the most incompetent, malevolent, inept, morons known to mankind

There's essentially no one left in the Conservative party to challenge him; at least in the sense of being a) competent, and b) attractive/entertaining to the electorate, so the party leaves him there. I suppose any remaining rational party members probably hope that Boris will eventually go down in flames (without doing too much further damage to the party) then they can get someone competent in.

Obviously none of this was helped by Labour being unable to connect with the electorate - but granted it's difficult when your opponent is promising people the Earth, in a way that appears to be convincing enough that sufficient voters believed the con.


----------



## doctor Bob

You need to sort it then, I'd recommend ranting on a woodworking forum for 4 years. Usually best to repeat stuff over and over.


----------



## brocher

Noel said:


> As somebody said this morning:
> 
> Boris Johnson said he'd never agree an Irish Sea border, then agreed it, denied he'd agreed what he'd agreed, then implemented it...& now says there must not be an Irish Sea border.


This is Johnson lying through his teeth directly when questioned by Sophie Ridge on Channel 4! He is just a lying toad!!


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> You need to sort it then, I'd recommend ranting on a woodworking forum for 4 years. Usually best to repeat stuff over and over.


Ranting and repeating crazy stuff over and over for 4 years does seem to have worked well for Boris et al...


----------



## Jake

Bob's lot, [edit counting is difficult: 8] years ago, about when people started to believe. 
Nigel Farage – 2013 Speech to UKIP Conference – UKPOL.CO.UK


----------



## Rorschach

Any of you thought of standing for parliament on an anti Brexit platform? Sounds easy from what I read here, the electorate would be clamouring to vote you once you point out those easy facts and how stupid they were to vote for Brexit. They'll be building statues of you in no time.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> Any of you thought of standing for parliament on an anti Brexit platform? Sounds easy from what I read here, the electorate would be clamouring to vote you once you point out those easy facts and how stupid they were to vote for Brexit. They'll be building statues of you in no time.


I thought someone had already dealt with that whattabouterry several pages ago.

Better perhaps to stand for parliament on a platform of better education, and tighter controls on fact checking and honesty from politicians and the media. It'd be more attractive to the electorate, and would be more likely to counter future such deceptions of the public.


----------



## Daniel2

So, I took the plunge and placed an order with Workshop Heaven.
Mainly to see for myself how things are working out, regarding buying
in the DUK and being shipped to mainland Europe.
It really appears that they are bending themselves inside out to try and
accommodate the new system.
The ordering process was made painless to me, and DHL were charged
with billing the VAT & customs duties (which, at the point of despatch,
were still an unknown amount).
I have just recieved the bill from DHL. Of course there is the VAT; nothing
wrong with that. The duty to be paid on the items (€400 worth), is €20.
Okay, it's not a lot of money. But, still, it's €20 thrown into the ether because
of giving the public a say in something they were too dim to even
realise that they didn't understand what they were actually voting for.
The extra workload it has placed on the vendors and tranporters is terrible
and can only scrape more away from their margins, because the prices haven't
gone up.
Yet.
Just more non-productive paper chasing to generate "money".
Like the South Sea Bubble, this road we're on is unsustainable.

ATB,
Daniel


----------



## sploo

Daniel2 said:


> So, I took the plunge and placed an order with Workshop Heaven.
> Mainly to see for myself how things are working out, regarding buying
> in the DUK and being shipped to mainland Europe.
> It really appears that they are bending themselves inside out to try and
> accommodate the new system.
> The ordering process was made painless to me, and DHL were charged
> with billing the VAT & customs duties (which, at the point of despatch,
> were still an unknown amount).
> I have just recieved the bill from DHL. Of course there is the VAT; nothing
> wrong with that. The duty to be paid on the items (€400 worth), is €20.
> Okay, it's not a lot of money. But, still, it's €20 thrown into the ether because
> of giving our half witted public a say in something they were too dim to even
> realise that they didn't understand what they were actually voting for.
> The extra workload it has placed on the vendors and tranporters is terrible
> and can only scrape more away from their margins, because the prices haven't
> gone up.
> Yet.
> Just more non-productive paper chasing to generate "money".
> Like the South Sea Bubble, this road we're on is unsustainable.
> 
> ATB,
> Daniel


As someone pointed out a some pages ago; Brexit _has_ essentially removed bureaucracy and red tape from the top of the system... but simply moved it to the individual; so we're all now having to deal with the resulting extra procedures and costs.


----------



## doctor Bob

Probably the best thing to do, is to find a few like minded individuals on say a woodworking forum and back slap each other for 4 years.
Won't change anything.


----------



## Rorschach

doctor Bob said:


> Probably the best thing to do, is to find a few like minded individuals on say a woodworking forum and back slap each other for 4 years.
> Won't change anything.



Or join the labour party, pretty much the same thing.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Probably the best thing to do, is to find a few like minded individuals on say a woodworking forum and back slap each other for 4 years.
> Won't change anything.


Naaah. I'm planning on starting a campaign to have all prisoners released. I mean - by definition, the crimes they committed were in the past, so we should all just let it go and move on. No point in being miserable and dwelling on it; just let them out and move forward.


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> Naaah. I'm planning on starting a campaign to have all prisoners released. I mean - by definition, the crimes they committed were in the past, so we should all just let it go and move on. No point in being miserable and dwelling on it; just let them out and move forward.


Recommended in the Bible and numerous other places. "Jubilee" year - every few years (50?, 7?) cancel the currency and all debts/credits, cancel all land property ownership and redistribute, free all slaves and prisoners, etc .
A big restart button for when things have gone to the dogs.
Features a lot in Verso - the most interesting and radical history book I've ever read! Out marxes Marx!


----------



## Jelly

Rorschach said:


> Any of you thought of standing for parliament on an anti Brexit platform?





sploo said:


> I thought someone had already dealt with that whattabouterry several pages ago.




Once again for emphasis:


Jelly said:


> _[snip]_
> Your point is brought up frequently enough in political conversations to be a trope, and invariably it comes across as someone making a BS deflection by accusing their opponents of failing to take personal responsibility, to derail the thread of discussion and disguise that they're unable to come up with a valid counterargument.




Now taking the other point:


sploo said:


> Better perhaps to stand for parliament on a platform of better education, and tighter controls on fact checking and honesty from politicians and the media. It'd be more attractive to the electorate, and would be more likely to counter future such deceptions of the public



The cynic within me suspects that it would be extremely difficult, nigh impossible to build a campaign or party to do that, as long as we have:

De-facto two party rule, and
A politically influential Print Media which is highly polarised and would likely view the fact checking and media honesty angle as being an assault upon the power they have been able to concentrate.

If Labour becomes willing to concede that it has *at least* two distinct political philosophies with in their ranks (the Conservative party has at least 3, but I can't see them conceeding anything whilst they're in power) and that they can only satisfy both sides of that long term is by supporting a move to Proportional Representation or similar preference based voting systems; then there's a chance things would get better.


----------



## Jacob

Jelly said:


> .......
> 
> If Labour becomes willing to concede that it has *at least* two distinct political philosophies with in their ranks (the Conservative party has at least 3, but I can't see them conceeding anything whilst they're in power) and that they can only satisfy both sides of that long term is by supporting a move to Proportional Representation or similar preference based voting systems; then there's a chance things would get better.


Agree about PR etc.
Not sure what "political philosophies" there are in Labour other than the socialist mainstream as represented by Corbyn, Attlee, Bevan et al. The others more like power seeking factions.
Could anybody hazard a guess at Starmer's "philosophy" ?


----------



## Jelly

Jacob said:


> Agree about PR etc.
> Not sure what "political philosophies" there are in Labour other than the socialist mainstream as represented by Corbyn, Attlee, Bevan et al. The others more like power seeking factions.
> Could anybody hazard a guess at Starmer's "philosophy" ?



I don't think Starmer has built a cohesive platform, I'm not a huge fan of his having rather prefered Lisa Nandy for the leadership after Corbyn departed (although to my discredit, not enough to have joined the party in order to vote for her).

Anyway, on the distinct political philosphies going on within Labour:

I would consider the New Labour/Blairite faction to have a distinct political philosophy, which could be characterised (perhaps pejoratively, but not inaccurately) as "Thatcherism-Light with a side of Social Democracy"; very keen on using public-private partnership and PFI even in cases where there's an obvious natural monopoly where the government delivering the project/service directly would be a more efficient way to do things.​​There's then the standard socialist/social democrat philosophy you describe; but there's then a distinct split within that philosophy between:​
People who have a more traditional british take on that which is based more around class which emphasises the economic (left-right) split and is agnostic to mildly conservative on social issues, and 
People who have a more internationalist, socially liberal view which tends towards intersectionality theory and pushes for the social issues of individual marginalised groups to be addressed, because that will in turn have knock-on effects which advance everyone's wellbeing and economic security. 
Whilst it's not intentionally part of this sub-group's political philosophy, it wouldn't be unfair to generalise that "not being very good at explaining themselves in simple terms" is a defining element of the most vocal members within this group.


Consequently, 


The Blairites infight with the Traditionalists, over the validity (or lack thereof) of following keynesian or neo-liberal economic policies.
The result is that opposing parties (Lib Dems, SNP, and Conservatives alike) are able to use the frequent disagreement and movement in position by the party, to paint it as being economically unsound; 
The emotiveness of that internal disquiet and frequent change means they can do this even though the hard evidence suggests Labour has performed about as well as if not slightly better than the Conservatives or Coalition have in recent history, whilst being much less harsh on the poorer elements of society).

The Internationalists in-fight with both the Blairites and the British Tradition over different things (government intervention in markets and foreign policy with the Blairites, and Social Policy with the more conservative element of the British Tradition), which allows opposition to do two three things:
Firstly to paint that faction as being purely interested in "Identity Politics" and engaging in a "Culture War", whilst being uninterested in wellbeing of the man on the street.
Secondly, to use the memory of Militant and other entryist organisations to make people feel that the same thing is happening again with Momentum (which I'm sceptical of, but wouldn't consider to be anything like the genuine entryist movements in the 70's and 80's).
Thirdly, having created the false (or misleading) narrative, and the spectre of a shadowy group controlling the party from within, go on to then paint the entire labour party as being cohesively behind those things as a political project; thus turning off traditional labour voters.

FWIW I think all three of those philosophies have excellent contributions to make to the political life of the UK, and would subscribe to certain elements of all three, tending towards the two more traditionally left wing viewpoints. 

My main issue is that by having an ongoing, frequently public and always rancorous battle for primacy within the party rather than co-operating, all three factions have contributed to undermining the electability of the Labour Party as a whole.


----------



## Droogs

then lets have true PR and have the parties split into their factional parts and have a consensus coalition government for once


----------



## selectortone

Expecting MPs from the two main parties to vote for PR is about as likely as turkeys voting for Christmas.


----------



## Rorschach

It doesn't help that we held a referendum on voting reform and it was thrown out.


----------



## Jelly

Droogs said:


> then lets have true PR and have the parties split into their factional parts and have a consensus coalition government for once


Exactly!

It would help to clarify the status of devolution too...

I know plenty of younger Scots people who recognize the issues with independence, but still vote SNP because they don't feel that Labour, LibDem, or Conservative would actually represent their interests in Westminster.

The converse applies in Wales where I know a number of people who naturally align with Plaid Cymru, but vote for a "Main Party" in Westminster elections because they don't think Plaid will get in (this said I did live in Gwynedd at the time which had a Plaid MP, so some of that nationalist spirit is bound to spill over into neighbouring constituencies).

I might actually consider voting for the Yorkshire Party myself if there was a genuine PR system in place, they have fairly sensible center-left policy positions and articulate a good argument for regional devolution.


----------



## Ollie78

Pretty sure Guy Fawkes had the right idea.

Ollie


----------



## doctor Bob

We could have a referendum on PR. Let’s hope it’s close so we can have a brief 5 year chat about it.


----------



## doctor Bob

Hopefully we can have some fresh analogies


----------



## doctor Bob

See if we could get to page 100 with out mentioning the nazis


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> We could have a referendum on PR. Let’s hope it’s close so we can have a brief 5 year chat about it.


Why do you even engage in these threads, Doctor? You won! Get over it!


----------



## doctor Bob

John you are correct. Do you just want backslappers then?


----------



## doctor Bob

I like the pm feedback to be honest, from the people too timid to engage with the gang


----------



## doctor Bob

Plus sploo and Jacob would miss me


----------



## doctor Bob

I thought you stormed off in a huff to be honest a while back


----------



## Droogs

Didn't realize you got midnight loveletters DrBob


----------



## John Brown

I just want to know in what tangible way Brexit has enhanced your life. Tangible, not some vague nonsense about sovereignty, or "unelected beaurocrats".


----------



## doctor Bob

You can put me on ignore, very easy


----------



## Blackswanwood

Daniel2 said:


> Okay, it's not a lot of money. But, still, it's €20 thrown into the ether because
> of giving the public a say in something they were too dim to even
> realise that they didn't understand what they were actually voting for.



Are you advocating we have an IQ test before allowing people to vote?


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> I just want to know in what tangible way Brexit has enhanced your life. Tangible, not some vague nonsense about sovereignty, or "unelected beaurocrats".


To be honest, this is so frustrating. I have actively posted why I voted brexit. Quite often and no one ever seems to read it.


----------



## doctor Bob

Now comes the ..... yeh but arguements


----------



## doctor Bob

The whataboutary


----------



## doctor Bob

You don’t know why you did it


----------



## doctor Bob

It’s been done to death


----------



## Jelly

doctor Bob said:


> We could have a referendum on PR. Let’s hope it’s close so we can have a brief 5 year chat about it.


 
I wouldn't have thought you'd be naïve enough to have seriously believed the second referendum would stop people "Banging on about Europe", given the first one clearly did nothing to that end.

If you're particularly lucky the voices will get so loud that some hapless government will decide to go "best of three" just to shut them up for you.


----------



## John Brown

Ok. I didn't ask why you voted for Brexit, did I?


----------



## doctor Bob

Daniel2 said:


> . But, still, it's €20 thrown into the ether because
> of giving the public a say in something they were too dim to even
> realise that they didn't understand what they were actually voting for.
> 
> ATB,
> Daniel



That’s quite a statement, do you think it’s that simple


----------



## Rorschach

John Brown said:


> I just want to know in what tangible way Brexit has enhanced your life. Tangible, not some vague nonsense about sovereignty, or "unelected beaurocrats".



Watching BBC luvvies heads explode in 2016, worth it at any price.


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> Ok. I didn't ask why you voted for Brexit, did I?



No you didn’t but if you knew why I voted brexit, you’d realise your question is irrelevant to my position.


----------



## John Brown

I'm still waiting to hear how the Doctor's life has been enhanced.


----------



## doctor Bob

Rorschach said:


> Watching BBC luvvies heads explode in 2016, worth it at any price.


That was the big issue, people didn’t understand the working man mentality


----------



## John Brown

Can't answer?


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> I'm still waiting to hear how the Doctor's life has been enhanced.


John you are not reading my posts


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> Can't answer?


Calm down tiger.


----------



## John Brown

Just one thing?


----------



## doctor Bob

Are you stamping your feet John?


----------



## doctor Bob

Or bashing the table


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> See if we could get to page 100 with out mentioning the nazis


Godwin's law


----------



## doctor Bob

My life has not been enhanced or diminished, we are in a new situation. It is just generally a happy life. I believe the future is going to be great for me, but as always that may be my optimistic outlook. I don’t think I could live with such pessimistic outlook as some on here, must wake up every day with the weight of the world on your shoulders.
I’m building a house in my garden at present that’s going fine, my 2 businesses are going well, probably due COVID. But generally it’s all ok


----------



## doctor Bob

Maybe I’m in a lucky situation. But the questioner was directly accosting me. So I have to reply about me


----------



## RobinBHM

John Brown said:


> I just want to know in what tangible way Brexit has enhanced your life. Tangible, not some vague nonsense about sovereignty, or "unelected beaurocrats".


The Leave campaign made promises that could never be delivered.

If you take out all the people who voted for Brexit for misguided reasons you can't be left with many people.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> The Leave campaign made promises that could never be delivered.
> 
> If you take out all the people who voted for Brexit for misguided reasons you can't be left with many people.


How can u know that then


----------



## Daniel2

Blackswanwood said:


> Are you advocating we have an IQ test before allowing people to vote?



Might not be as daft as it sounds


----------



## Daniel2

doctor Bob said:


> That’s quite a statement, do you think it’s that simple



What; the shameless waste of my €20, or not understanding what we were voting for ?


----------



## doctor Bob

The great thing about optimism is you look forward rather than thinking how great the past was.


----------



## doctor Bob

Daniel2 said:


> What; the shameless waste of my €20, or not understanding what we were voting for ?


That 52% had no concept of what they wanted the future to look like


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> I just want to know in what tangible way Brexit has enhanced your life. Tangible, not some vague nonsense about sovereignty, or "unelected beaurocrats".


You try and find a post from me where I’ve mentioned that stuff. You are putting words in my mouth. Nothing more than manipulation of words to make it sound like I said something I didn’t. Cheap shot


----------



## doctor Bob

You gone john. I’m off to my gym. Ask me another in a pleasant manner, rather than shouty demanding and I’ll reply in an hour. It is better for everyone to be pleasant.


----------



## Daniel2

doctor Bob said:


> That 52% had no concept of what they wanted the future to look like



Each, on an individual level, probably did have their own picture of the future, in their mind's eye.
However, I still stand by my point, that I believe the vast majority (downside of a democracy), did 
not fully understand the implications of their vote.
I'm incensed because Brexit has cost me €20 (inc vat).


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> could live with such pessimistic outlook as some on here, must wake up every day with the weight of the world on your shoulders



Ah, a conflation.

It is a rather shallow argument to label people who disagree with Brexit as pessimistic.
Debating Brexit does not give any indication as to a persons level of happiness.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> It is better for everyone to be pleasant


Boring though


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> Ah, a conflation.
> 
> It is a rather shallow argument to label people who disagree with Brexit as pessimistic.
> Debating Brexit does not give any indication as to a persons level of happiness.



You tried this before. I find positive stuff in everything. That makes me an optimist. As an optimist I find you all very pessimistic about the future. I was asked about me, directly and gave my view. If you’re not happy with that then that’s fine. To be honest it just seems point scoring


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> Or bashing the table


Sorry, Doctor, no, I was lighting the log burner, eating my dinner and watching some lightweight romantic comedy film with my wife.
Glad to hear that Brexit isn't really affecting you one way or another, but this thread was started because some people are apparently suffering the fallout. If you're not affected, then I can only guess that you join in to jeer and gloat. There's nothing wrong with that, and if if makes you happy, then there's a Brexit benefit for you! The next time someone asks you how life has improved for you post Brexit, feel free to say that it allows you to jeer and gloat. You have my blessing.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> Hopefully we can have some fresh analogies



The tea bag analogy

If you leave the bag in, then over time the cup of tea will get stronger. And it may appear that the bag is getting weaker but it’s now part of a stronger bag of tea.

Whereas if you take the bag out, the tea gets weaker and the bag goes directly in the bin


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> Sorry, Doctor, no, I was lighting the log burner, eating my dinner and watching some lightweight romantic comedy film with my wife.
> Glad to hear that Brexit isn't really affecting you one way or another, but this thread was started because some people are apparently suffering the fallout. If you're not affected, then I can only guess that you join in to jeer and gloat. There's nothing wrong with that, and if if makes you happy, then there's a Brexit benefit for you! The next time someone asks you how life has improved for you post Brexit, feel free to say that it allows you to jeer and gloat. You have my blessing.



Make stuff up as you wish john, if it makes you happy.
When have I gloated, you asked me a question I replied. Saying very little had changed. Again just another cheap low shot from you. I thought you wanted a serious discussion.
You must have really suffered if you think life remaining the same is a gloat.
Having said that I like to see people doing well. I certainly see no reason to frown on others doing well.
I see your point about the reason for the thread but your attitude just confirms to me that you just want your gang on here.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> The tea bag analogy
> 
> If you leave the bag in, then over time the cup of tea will get stronger. And it may appear that the bag is getting weaker but it’s now part of a stronger bag of tea.
> 
> Whereas if you take the bag out, the tea gets weaker and the bag goes directly in the bin



What!


----------



## artie

I was on a well known auction site about a week ago intent on purchasing a small item. £2.94 including postage.
I clicked the buy it now option and proceeded to check out.
Only to be informed that I needed to change my address before the seller would accept payment.

Now I don't know about anyone else but I don't think a £2.94 item warrants me upping sticks, so I decided to just delete it. oops no can do.

So I just shut the whole thing down and went to Amazon where a vendor obliged me albeit for a few pence more.

Tuesday past I received an email from that well known site advising that I needed to pay to avoid a no payment case opening against me.

Today I have been noticed that a case has been opened against me.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> That was the big issue, people didn’t understand the working man mentality


This is absolutely true, and indeed the Leave camp did a really good job at tapping into it to secure the vote of that demographic. 

Sadly, understand and empathise are two different things; as Brexit probably does the most harm to those at the bottom (not that they gave a toss about that of course).


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> This is absolutely true, and indeed the Leave camp did a really good job at tapping into it to secure the vote of that demographic.
> 
> Sadly, understand and empathise are two different things; as Brexit probably does the most harm to those at the bottom (not that they gave a toss about that of course).


The working man was told what to do by the middle class, I was publicly told by a ceo that I didn’t know enough to deserve a vote. He may well have been right, but it would be a sad day when one man one vote is not the correct way.


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> The working man was told what to do by the middle class, I was publicly told by a ceo that I didn’t know enough to deserve a vote. He may well have been right, but it would be a sad day when one man one vote is not the correct way.


In this instance (the Brexit referendum) it was the working man being told to vote against "the elite"... by wealthy members of the monied elite.

Agree on one man one vote though; totally unacceptable for someone to tell another they don't deserve a vote.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> The working man was told what to do by the middle class, I was publicly told by a ceo that I didn’t know enough to deserve a vote. He may well have been right, but it would be a sad day when one man one vote is not the correct way.


It was more the media doing the telling, motivated by wealthy vested interests. 
Not a "class" thing - there are plenty of intelligent people amongst "the working class".
The fact that your man was a CEO means nothing he was probably as thick as a post. "Class" has nothing to do with it - just look at some of the old Etonians running Britain today, some of them shouldn't have been released from the 5th form!


----------



## Droogs

ah but he was the man DrBob and his was the vote


----------



## doctor Bob

A


----------



## doctor Bob

A


----------



## Droogs

choo?


----------



## Jelly

doctor Bob said:


> That was the big issue, people didn’t understand the working man mentality



Whilst I don't agree with you on much about the EU, I would fully agree with you on this.


I don't know if this fits with your own thoughts, but is what I learned from a bunch of the operators at work who were/are keen brexiteers.

Whilst I did have a whole detailed post written about what I learned from them about their reasons for voting that way, but the bottom line I arrived at is something like:

Many brexiteers felt left behind, knew that they didn't gain all that much tangible from the EU and were keenly aware that they were already being taken for granted, treated like idiots and imposed upon by the powers that be...​​The leave campaign then failed to articulate any of the benefits of the EU in a way which was meaningful to them, and reinforced all of those feelings by basically telling them what to do with insufficient attempts to seriously explain or engage with them.​
Sound about right?


What I will say from the opposite side of the argument, is that in that context the choice to vote against the establishment, knowing that there wasn't much for them to loose, whilst an upset victory would bring them back to political relevance and give them more of an opportunity to influence the UK's future; *now looks like a very canny decision indeed.*

Not _all_ that much to do with Europe*, but definitely not stupid either.*


----------



## Jake

Droogs said:


> choo?



Milne. 

no, McKenzie/Breakwell


----------



## Jake

Jelly said:


> the choice to vote against the establishment



They weren't at all, the establishment is stuffed full of Brexiters.


----------



## RobinBHM

Jelly said:


> Many brexiteers felt left behind, knew that they didn't gain all that much tangible from the EU and were keenly aware that they were already being taken for granted, treated like idiots and imposed upon by the powers that be



It was certainly clever the way those that felt so left behind were persuaded to vote for the neoliberal ideology that's been responsible for the decline.

And vote for deregulation that will accelerate decline and inequality.


----------



## RobinBHM

Jake said:


> They weren't at all, the establishment is stuffed full of Brexiters.


the Tufton street establishment,


----------



## Jake

Not just there, all over the place. The born-to-power establishment is massively brexit-biased. That's only part of the modern establishment which is more professional and career based, but even within that, there's a lot of it. Countless MPs, judges, civil servants, you name it. I know a few. None of them give a flying toos about Bob's spring onion picker, apart from to think he was overpaid.


----------



## Jelly

Jake said:


> They weren't at all, the establishment is stuffed full of Brexiters.


Whilst you're not necessarily wrong, I feel like you've missed the important point...

In doing so, they calculated they could regain some of the political capital they had lost in the preceding three decades... Which worked pretty much as intended.

It's also notable that the more visible (and at least on a day to day level, influential) parts of the establishment, be that politicians, the media, bankers, economists, statistians, etc. Broadly and loudly came out in favour of remain, but failed to connect with or articulate their points to the average guy on the street; alienating them...


By contrast, for the most part the pro-brexit side of the establishment (predominantly from aristocratic and "old money" mercentile families, with a few wealthy private business owners thrown in) knew it was best to mostly keep quiet apart from occasionally coming out to play the part of a comically endearing posh person, so as not to alienate the very people whose support was needed.


----------



## Rorschach

That look on David Dimbleby's face though when he announced the exit poll, fantastic.


----------



## Jacob

The establishment were pro brexit because of fear of the incipient socialism implied by the social chapter - another layer of regulation, of benefit to ordinary people, particularly "the working class". Press corner
How to persuade people to vote against their own interests?
Easy peasy - just do what the main stream media has always done to control the mob; persuade them to hate each other. Hating foreigner workers was tops, particularly Romanians.
This is what the MSM do. They lay out an organised hate programme every day. Foreigners, immigrants, the unemployed, asylum seekers, gypsies, students, lefties, Corbynists, media studies, single mothers on benefits, black people, Jews, trade unions......etc etc.
This is what they have always done since 17C or earlier, with the details of the list varying through history - "dissenters, antinomians, witches, catholics, beggars, itinerant preachers, agitators, conjurors, pamphleteers, anabaptists" and so on.
Add to the mix the crackpot conspiracy theories; Qanon, paedophile rings, the Great Reset, covid as a sinister totalitarian confidence trick, terrorists, then it's no wonder that a lot of people are going around totally confused and getting angry.
Then smart alecs like Farage or Johnson will say "follow me chaps everything will be all right".


----------



## Rorschach

Oh yeah the famously pro-Brexit MSM!


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> Oh yeah the famously pro-Brexit MSM!











The UK finally leaves the EU as Britons across the country celebrate


On the stroke of 11pm, the UK officially divorced from the bloc after three years of political struggle that split families and paralysed Westminster.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## doctor Bob

Got to love a Jacob story. They remind me of “murder she wrote” entertaining but thin on plot.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob will come back with a corker, can’t wait, trouble is I’ll read it with the theme tune in my head. Hopefully it’ll go soon and he’ll go back to being the hermit in life of Brian


----------



## Daniel2

This is all well and good, ruminating over the larger issues from our armchairs.
But, can anyone, ANYONE, please give a *tangible* benefit that has been had from
leaving the EU. Almost anything will do... Even straw clutching


----------



## John Brown

Daniel2 said:


> This is all well and good, ruminating over the larger issues from our armchairs.
> But, can anyone, ANYONE, please give a *tangible* benefit that has been had from
> leaving the EU. Almost anything will do... Even straw clutching


Rorschach has given his. He apparently enjoys watching people's heads exploding.
I believe this was endorsed by the good doctor, as well.


----------



## Droogs

Also you can punch Boris and Gove square in the face and know that no gendarme will ever arrest you


----------



## Jacob

Daniel2 said:


> This is all well and good, ruminating over the larger issues from our armchairs.
> But, can anyone, ANYONE, please give a *tangible* benefit that has been had from
> leaving the EU. Almost anything will do... Even straw clutching


No more Eurovision Song Contest?


----------



## Droogs

that is not a benefit Jacob just a relief lol


----------



## Rorschach

John Brown said:


> Rorschach has given his. He apparently enjoys watching people's heads exploding.
> I believe this was endorsed by the good doctor, as well.



I gave others earlier on in the thread. The heads exploding thing was a joke, people with a sense of humour would have caught that.


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> Rorschach has given his. He apparently enjoys watching people's heads exploding.
> I believe this was endorsed by the good doctor, as well.


No it wasn’t. Stop the cheap shots. Where did I say that. You are just being a tool.


----------



## doctor Bob

John I feel sorry for you if brexit has destroyed your life, obviously from your posts it’s effected you big time. But what have u got against me for saying nothing has changed. U asked me a question I answered


----------



## doctor Bob

I just get the feeling u don’t want different views


----------



## doctor Bob

And if that view doesn’t suit your agenda then you pineapple them off


----------



## John Brown

Rorschach said:


> I gave others earlier on in the thread. The heads exploding thing was a joke, people with a sense of humour would have caught that.


Rorschach, I went back to the beginning of the thread. You said some stuff about how some low cost items might end up being cheaper. Talked about fishing quotas four or five years hence. After I read your post where you stated that nothing had made any real difference to you, I stopped reading.
No doubt that post was a joke as well.


----------



## Woody2Shoes

sploo said:


> That's just specific enough that I have to assume it's a real anecdote


So did they find the contraband then ?


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> That was the big issue, people didn’t understand the working man mentality


Looks like endorsement to me, sorry if you quoted Rorschach in order to ridicule him, and I misinterpreted.


----------



## Jacob

Bob thinks Pacific Rim trading is a potential benefit.
But we already trade with the Pacific Rim. And it's a long way from Dover (not many people know that, they'll be in for a shock - "are we nearly there yet?" etc)


----------



## Rorschach

John Brown said:


> Rorschach, I went back to the beginning of the thread. You said some stuff about how some low cost items might end up being cheaper. Talked about fishing quotas four or five years hence. After I read your post where you stated that nothing had made any real difference to you, I stopped reading.
> No doubt that post was a joke as well.



I also said about ending free movement but apparently that makes me a xenophobe even though that also makes Australians, NZders, Americans xenophobes as well but hey ho.


----------



## John Brown

Rorschach said:


> I also said about ending free movement but apparently that makes me a xenophobe even though that also makes Australians, NZders, Americans xenophobes as well but hey ho.


Was that before or after the post where you said it hadn't affected you one way or the other?
And how has the ending of free movement benefitted you?


----------



## Rorschach

John Brown said:


> Was that before or after the post where you said it hadn't affected you one way or the other?
> And how has the ending of free movement benefitted you?



It hasn't affected me yet, we have only been out for 5 weeks! Give it chance man.
Ending of free movement will allow us to control which kinds of professions are allowed to migrate here protecting jobs in industries which are already well staffed. That in turn will help (not solve, it needs more than just that) the housing crisis that is preventing me and my friends and family from being able to afford to buy a house.

I am very pro immigration, as long as it is controlled and we get the right kinds of people come here, just like those xenophobic Australians do. (That xenophobic bit was a joke for humourless)


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> Looks like endorsement to me, sorry if you quoted Rorschach in order to ridicule him, and I misinterpreted.


I’m happy to accept you have misunderstood rather than just being a ......


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> I also said about ending free movement but apparently that makes me a xenophobe even though that also makes Australians, NZders, Americans xenophobes as well but hey ho.


Predictable strawman.

Are you able to debate honestly?


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> I also said about ending free movement but apparently that makes me a xenophobe even though that also makes Australians, NZders, Americans xenophobes as well but hey ho.


Yes xenophobe. A result of carefully cultivated dislike/distrust of foreigners.
Free movement in fact possibly the single most progressive and democratic thing about the EU - and the most alarming to those opposed to the social chapter and better conditions for workers.
It's an old trick. It used to be the French, Spanish, catholics, most promoted as enemies. Then the black population - marginalised to prolong slavery. Then the Germans - used to promote the utterly unnecessary but deadly WW1.
And so it goes, a continual propaganda war, to sow division.
United we stand.......


----------



## doctor Bob

There are a lot of scarecrows these days,


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Yes xenophobe. A result of carefully cultivated dislike/distrust of foreigners.
> In fact possibly the single most progressive and democratic thing about the EU - and the most alarming to those opposed to the social chapter and better conditions for workers.
> It's an old trick. It used to be the French, Spanish, catholics, most promoted as enemies. Then the black population - marginalised to prolong slavery. Then the Germans - used to promote the utterly unnecessary but deadly WW1.
> And so it goes, a continual propaganda war, to sow division.
> United we stand.......



Nothing to do with distrust or disliking them at all. I have many foreign friends around the world and in Europe, I love them, but it doesn't mean I want them to have freedom to come live and work here.


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> I’m happy to accept you have misunderstood rather than just being a ......


So Bob, to get back to my original point. This thread started because some people were/are experiencing difficulties post Brexit. If it hasn't affected you (or Rorschach) one way or the other, why do you feel the need to engage? My theory was jeering and gloating, but you actively deny that. When I asked, in the interest of balance, if you could point to one tangible benefit, you couldn't. So you resorted to asking me if I was stamping or banging my first, presumably to give yourself more time to come up with...well, nothing.
I shall flounce off in a huff now, maybe dish out a few brownie points to my gang first.


----------



## doctor Bob

Ok cool, see ya. Funny how you don’t want different views, and consider “nothing’s changed” as gloating and jeering. And yet I get mullered for saying “your pessimistic “. Funny old world


----------



## Daniel2

*“Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people.” - Thor Heyerdahl*


----------



## Jelly

Rorschach said:


> That in turn will help (not solve, it needs more than just that) the housing crisis that is preventing me and my friends and family from being able to afford to buy a house.


It is highly unlikely that the end of free movement will lead to any meaningful change in the housing situation. If anything in the event there was a drop in the housing market caused by a sudden rush of departures then it's likely the government would move to shore up those prices via other mechanisms.

Housing in the UK has become expensive because it's been made artificially scarce by a variety of government policies since the 50's.

A policy which reversed that artificial scarcity, and drove prices down would be politically very uncomfortable for any government, who would alienate a lot of people, and potentially create a negative equity crisis.

So until the majority of UK voters don't own their own home, and a party identifes that as a strategy which will allow them to win, it's most likely that we will continue to see successive governments come out with grand sounding but ultimately quite small and ineffective plans on housing.

So odds on, you will just have to wait it out until the political calculus changes.


----------



## doctor Bob

The reason for asking if you were stamping your feet was the fact you asked me the same thing 3 times in 2 minutes. Whilst I was having my tea. I found it rather needy, and pictured you having steam coming out your ears bit like Ian paisley thumping the table


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> .....have many foreign friends around the world and in Europe, I love them, but it doesn't mean I want them to have freedom to come live and work here.


1 Why not?
2 What if they want to come and live and work here?
3 What if you want to go and live and work there?
4 How specific should freedom of movement be and why? What about between the UK Nations? What about all those Yorkshire people moving into Derbyshire? What about those funny ferkers in several villages around me!
What about the 3 other of the "Four Freedoms"
• Free movement of goods.
• Free movement of capital.
• Freedom to establish and provide services.
Why should these be free to move but not Free movement of persons.
Is there some sort of logic behind this?
What about banning free movement of capital as well? If not, why not?


----------



## Droogs

So you think just because you were lucky enough to be born on a particular lump of mud, you get the right to deny everyone else from living on whatever lump of mud they would like to? Let us hope your lump of mud doesn't turn into a lump of something else and you feel like moving.


----------



## MarkDennehy

Rorschach said:


> I am very pro immigration, as long as it is controlled and we get the right kinds of people come here, just like those xenophobic Australians do. (That xenophobic bit was a joke for humourless)


In the spirit of dealing with difficult subjects with humour...


----------



## Mark Hancock

Jelly said:


> It is highly unlikely that the end of free movement will lead to any meaningful change in the housing situation. If anything in the event there was a drop in the housing market caused by a sudden rush of departures then it's likely the government would move to shore up those prices via other mechanisms.


Recent reports this last week with regard to Hong Kong and ex-pats on the continent looking to return home would suggest an increase in house prices through increased demand.


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> Nothing to do with distrust or disliking them at all. I have many foreign friends around the world and in Europe, I love them, but it doesn't mean I want them to have freedom to come live and work here.



I know its a damn nuisance having all those EU nurses coming here looking after our elderly.....they arent the right kind of people.

Thank goodness the toxic brexit environment made 10,000 of them go back home.


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> That in turn will help (not solve, it needs more than just that) the housing crisis that is preventing me and my friends and family from being able to afford to buy a house.



immigration is not a cause of the housing issue, so ending free movement wont solve it.

the free market neo liberal ideology needs high immigration to feed it...so the reality is that UK governments want high immigration but simultaneously tell the public they are tough on immigration.

You need to dig a little deeper to find out why you and your friends cant afford to buy a house


----------



## Jacob

RobinBHM said:


> ........
> 
> You need to dig a little deeper to find out why you and your friends cant afford to buy a house


Fiscal policy first - makes property a good investment especially for the very rich even if it stays empty. Good for dodgy mega rich - Russian oligarchs, dodgy money sources etc somewhere to secure it.
In turn it increases rents as another return on investment.
Incentives to buy-to-let increases profitability.
Planning windfall profits go to the developer not the community.
Absence of house building policy creates a shortage.
Sale of council houses inflates market - owners get better off, tenants get worse off and end up excluded from buying.
Basically "a perfect storm" of pressure on house prices - deliberately contrived by governments as electoral bribe, for half the community.
Easy to reverse except for massive negative equity trap which will lose votes, so maybe a bubble which will burst anyway. Hasn't done since about 1970 except for little hiccups - 2007 etc soon forgotten.
And so on....
PS Immigrants could become part of the solution as building workers, fairly obviously IMHO. There are no positives about brexit.


----------



## Rorschach

Jelly said:


> It is highly unlikely that the end of free movement will lead to any meaningful change in the housing situation. If anything in the event there was a drop in the housing market caused by a sudden rush of departures then it's likely the government would move to shore up those prices via other mechanisms.
> 
> Housing in the UK has become expensive because it's been made artificially scarce by a variety of government policies since the 50's.
> 
> A policy which reversed that artificial scarcity, and drove prices down would be politically very uncomfortable for any government, who would alienate a lot of people, and potentially create a negative equity crisis.
> 
> So until the majority of UK voters don't own their own home, and a party identifes that as a strategy which will allow them to win, it's most likely that we will continue to see successive governments come out with grand sounding but ultimately quite small and ineffective plans on housing.
> 
> So odds on, you will just have to wait it out until the political calculus changes.



It might, it might not, but it's one factor for certain and it's not just the housing situation, that was an example, jobs is another one that affects people I know.


----------



## Rorschach

You ask for a reason, I gave one, just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it isn't a valid viewpoint.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> It might, it might not, but it's one factor for certain and it's not just the housing situation, that was an example, jobs is another one that affects people I know.


Immigrants create work and hence more jobs. This has always been the case in all expanding economies everywhere. The idea that they steal jobs is nonsense.


----------



## Jake

It's the same fallacy as leads to austerity - treating an economy as something fairly fixed like a household.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Immigrants create work and hence more jobs. This has always been the case in all expanding economies everywhere. The idea that they steal jobs is nonsense.



Go ask my mate who was a labourer and was replaced by a Pole if he created a job or had his job stolen.


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> Go ask my mate who was a labourer and was replaced by a Pole if he created a job or had his job stolen.


Did he get the sack? What were the details?
What about the other three freedoms? Don't they take over jobs in the same way?
What about all these Bangladeshis coming here and taking over our Indian restaurant industry?




__





Business of British Bangladeshis - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Did he get the sack? What were the details?



His boss made everyone redundant (I am not 100% sure if they were contracted etc) saying the business wasn't viable. They then found he set up again with Polish workers doing the exact same work for less pay. Now you may say that it's the boss that was the problem, and I could see that point of view, but he was only able to do that because the workers were available to do it.


----------



## Jacob

Jacob said:


> Did he get the sack? What were the details?





Rorschach said:


> His boss made everyone redundant (I am not 100% sure if they were contracted etc) saying the business wasn't viable. They then found he set up again with Polish workers doing the exact same work for less pay. Now you may say that it's the boss that was the problem, and I could see that point of view, but he was only able to do that because the workers were available to do it.


Stories get kicked around (mainly by N Farage) but you don't have to believe them.


----------



## Jelly

Rorschach said:


> You ask for a reason, I gave one, just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean it isn't a valid viewpoint.



"A valid viewpoint" is a whole can of worms.

You're perfectly entitled to believe that, and you're equally entitled to vote based on your beliefs.

You aren't entitled to not be challenged on whether that viewpoint can be supported by evidence, by someone who holds a different one, or who has access to more or different information than you did when you originally formed the view.

You are of course still entitled to get stroppy about being challenged.

But it doesn't really lend much credence to the idea that your view holds "validity" in the sense of forming an objectively verifiable theory about how the world works.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> His boss made everyone redundant (I am not 100% sure if they were contracted etc) saying the business wasn't viable. They then found he set up again with Polish workers doing the exact same work for less pay. Now you may say that it's the boss that was the problem, and I could see that point of view, but he was only able to do that because the workers were available to do it.


That's part of the "genius" of the xenophobes; an employer screws over native workers in order to save money by employing cheaper immigrants... and the people blame the immigrants.


----------



## doctor Bob

So what was going wrong then. Bad bosses, immigrants valuing their labour to low, people wanting cheap, exploitation of migrants. Surely it’s a combination of all factors. Bit too easy just to say racism


----------



## Jacob

sploo said:


> That's part of the "genius" of the xenophobes; an employer screws over native workers in order to save money by employing cheaper immigrants... and the people blame the immigrants.


And another successful example of a propaganda divided work force, the same people also objecting to unions and imposed wage rates. ....divided we fall.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> So what was going wrong then. Bad bosses, immigrants valuing their labour to low, people wanting cheap, exploitation of migrants. Surely it’s a combination of all factors. Bit too easy just to say racism


The blame goes to any identifiable characteristic and nationality or colour are easy to pick on.


----------



## doctor Bob

I dislike militant unions. I pay my guys for 5 days but they work 4 1/2 days. Just treat staff better than you want to be treated. Loyalty is important


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> The blame goes to any identifiable characteristic and nationality or colour are easy to pick on.


Sorry being thick, is that an answer


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> I dislike militant unions. I pay my guys for 5 days but they work 4 1/2 days. Just treat staff better than you want to be treated. Loyalty is important


Well if everybody did that there'd be no need for Unions!
My grandfather worked as an engineer for Aristoc in Derbyshire (stocking makers). He remembered the general strike. He didn't have to strike because the unions recognised that Aristoc paid good wages and looked after their workers. It's very simple really.


----------



## doctor Bob

Trouble is no one seems to think it’s possible to have cross over opinions. This thread is very binary


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> Well if everybody did that there'd be no need for Unions!
> My grandfather worked as an engineer for Aristoc in Derbyshire (stocking makers). He remembered the general strike. He didn't have to strike because the unions recognised that Aristoc paid good wages and looked after their workers. It's very simple really.



Mine was a riveter on the Tyne shipbuilders. Unemployed for 4 years, he educated himself out of it. Ended up a public health inspector. Day he qualified they offered him his riveter job back. My grandmother made him refuse. Very proud of his roots


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> So what was going wrong then. Bad bosses, immigrants valuing their labour to low, people wanting cheap, exploitation of migrants. Surely it’s a combination of all factors. Bit too easy just to say racism


The reason for the problem existing (native workers' jobs moving to immigrants) is that there's always someone willing to cut corners in order to save a buck.

Why it's allowed to happen is, yes, a degree of racism (or xenophobia). At least, if "them in charge" couldn't point at the immigrants and say "he's stolen your job" then it would be a darn sight harder for those same individuals to deflect the blame away from themselves.




doctor Bob said:


> I dislike militant unions. I pay my guys for 5 days but they work 4 1/2 days. Just treat staff better than you want to be treated. Loyalty is important


Sadly that's not the norm in many workplaces. It absolutely works both ways; there are scumbag employers who want to squeeze every last drop out of their employees, and militant union guys who seem to care less about the workers' they claim to represent and more about "giving a fat cat a bloody nose".


----------



## Rorschach

sploo said:


> At least, if "them in charge" couldn't point at the immigrants and say "he's stolen your job" then it would be a darn sight harder for those same individuals to deflect the blame away from themselves.



And now thanks to Brexit, they can't


----------



## Droogs

Oh yes they can. They can now bring in sub saharan africans who will do the job for half the cost of a pole or romanian would for the same amount of immigration hassle. So they win even more. I unfortuneately don think your friend will get his job back soon

edit adendum
Oh and the sub saharans are new essential workers and need to be let in as these employers can no longer entice and european nationals to come over and do the job let alone get their own mugs to do the job for the price they are now offering either


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> And now thanks to Brexit, they can't


So... simultaneously _not_ tackling the heart of the problem, _and_ also taking away freedom of movement from ourselves.

Oh, and the likelihood of course is that said companies will then simply move work to other (cheaper) regions, or in time just replace people with automation.


----------



## MarkDennehy

I'm a bit confused by how removing the legal protection of workers' rights while also "doing something" to limit unions will prevent immigrants taking your job if you're one of the majority who are just workers rather than business owners.
And I'm not convinced that chickenisation will resolve that confusion...


----------



## Jake

The aim of those steering Brexit has always been Singapore (hateful place). Entirely reliant on immigrant labour with zero rights.


----------



## Terry - Somerset

There are "three parties" to a "contract" - the employee ('ees), the employer ('ers), and the customer.

The customer holds the most power. If they don't buy the product of the 'ers and 'ees efforts, the 'ees and 'ers will soon not exist.

Most (not all) customers are driven by money. If 'ers don't respond they won't get the business. 'Ees are at liberty to take or leave the job - but most 'ees prefer jobs to unemloyment.

Creating restrictions which inhibit the 'ers is a balancing act. Too much 'ees protection will reduce employment or increase prices and/or imports. Too little and 'ees get all the pain.

Where we may be losing touch with reality is in the policy of using income as the basis for immigration.

This rewards immigrants with decent jobs (no problem with this) but potentially consigns our own citizens to the unfilled low paid jobs. We should spend more on training and education to improve their capabilities.


----------



## Jacob

Terry - Somerset said:


> ....Where we may be losing touch with reality is in the policy of using income as the basis for immigration.


Absolutely. A massive disincentive to many as the risk of losing a job would involve deportation.
Completely bloody crazy anyway - we need low skilled workers too. They turn into higher skilled workers


> ........ unfilled low paid jobs. We should spend more on training and education to improve their capabilities.


And enforce minimum wages and proper terms and conditions - a level playing field, with some increased costs to the customer, fewer cowboy gang master ops, less exploitation of the vulnerable and no undercutting of others' wages. More power to the unions too.


----------



## Jacob

".....The volume of exports going through British ports to the EU fell by a staggering 68% last month compared with January last year,....."
Just the start apparently, expected to get worse.








Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit


Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Blackswanwood

I do find some of the underlying views that we are heading towards the UK being a country that discards workers rights through deregulation perplexing.

We have elections every five years which all politicians know means they risk losing their job if they annoy the electorate. Some regulation arguably would benefit from changing albeit in some cases this is down to our past gold plating of EU regulation rather than the EU regulation itself.

I voted Remain and would not dispute that we’ve thrown the baby out with the bath water. The reason the vote went the way it did is an amalgam of a range of factors however it’s done. I don’t buy that the electorate are dim And claiming such is a sure sign of a bad loser. There are opportunities that come from not being a member of the EU and it’s far healthier, again imho, to focus on them.

In or out of the EU we have a lot to be grateful for living in the UK.


----------



## John Brown

Rorschach said:


> It hasn't affected me yet, we have only been out for 5 weeks! Give it chance man.
> Ending of free movement will allow us to control which kinds of professions are allowed to migrate here protecting jobs in industries which are already well staffed. That in turn will help (not solve, it needs more than just that) the housing crisis that is preventing me and my friends and family from being able to afford to buy a house.
> 
> I am very pro immigration, as long as it is controlled and we get the right kinds of people come here, just like those xenophobic Australians do. (That xenophobic bit was a joke for humourless)


Only been out for five weeks, but had four and a half years to prepare.


----------



## Rorschach

John Brown said:


> Only been out for five weeks, but had four and a half years to prepare.



Ok well I haven't seen any changes good or bad in the last 4.5 years.


----------



## sploo

Blackswanwood said:


> We have elections every five years which all politicians know means they risk losing their job if they annoy the electorate.


They risk losing their job _if the media the people read tells them they should be annoyed_. That's the killer issue.

I get a variety of media links pop up on my phone, and looking through the headlines from, say, The Express, someone who got their world view only from that source would be basically living in a parallel universe.


----------



## sploo

Rorschach said:


> Ok well I haven't seen any changes good or bad in the last 4.5 years.


Significant rises in reported racism, huge damage to the UK's standing on the world stage, loss of joint funding in medical and research fields, the country spending more on preparations than our entire EU membership costs since we joined. All of those "trivial" and minor things happened before we even fully left.

Have you only been reading The Express?


----------



## RobinBHM

Blackswanwood said:


> We have elections every five years which all politicians know means they risk losing their job if they annoy the electorate. Some regulation arguably would benefit from changing albeit in some cases this is down to our past gold plating of EU regulation rather than the EU regulation itself



In theory, I agree.
But democracy is rather illusory in this country.

Billionaires own the media, billionaires donate to the government.
US libertarian groups fund Brexit propaganda sites who in turn lobby MPs

current politicians are driven by vested self interest.


The electorate can be persuaded to vote against their best interests.....Brexit damage will be slow and unnoticed by most of the public. A boiling frog doesn't notice till it's too late.

FPTP means 90% of the electorate have no say.


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> Ok well I haven't seen any changes good or bad in the last 4.5 years.



You won't see them if you don't look for them.


----------



## Rorschach

RobinBHM said:


> You won't see them if you don't look for them.



If you gotta go look for it, maybe it isn't there?


----------



## doctor Bob

So now the gang are saying it’s not a proper democracy ....... dear oh dear, maybe we should switch to the eu version where just one nominee is put forward and she still just scrapped in.
Maybe an African style democracy


----------



## Noel

Rorschach said:


> If you gotta go look for it, maybe it isn't there?



If you don’t understand something it doesn’t mean it’s not a problem.


----------



## doctor Bob

The question u all keep asking us is being answered, then you all get moody because it wasn’t what u wanted to hear. Why is that our problem. I still am struggling to comprehend how stating nothing has changed for me is “gloating and jeering” maybe I should be self flagulating myself for having a very average unchanging lifestyle.


----------



## Misterdog

Jake said:


> The aim of those steering Brexit has always been Singapore (hateful place). Entirely reliant on immigrant labour with zero rights.



There are many countries with migrant labour programs though.

Guest Worker Programs


----------



## Rorschach

doctor Bob said:


> I’d say gloating and jeering is the backslapping the gang does. Almost to the point of n—hing each other off



Circle jerk is the term I usually hear used. Very common among the champagne socialists.


----------



## doctor Bob

Good program on R4 about luvvies telling porkies about their working class roots. Lot of pretenders out there. It’ll come out that jacob is public school and owns second home


----------



## artie

Blackswanwood said:


> We have elections every five years which all politicians know means they risk losing their job if they annoy the electorate.


I;m not much into politics and in my opinion party politics is the worst idea ever for the electorate.
Also I find it hard to find any substantial difference between parties, once elected.


----------



## RobinBHM

Rorschach said:


> If you gotta go look for it, maybe it isn't there?










*Brexit: 71 pages of paperwork for 1 lorry of fish*









Brexit: 71 pages of paperwork for 1 lorry of fish


How new rules on exporting to the European Union have affected a British fishing firm.



www.bbc.co.uk






*Almost 10,000 EU health workers have quit NHS since Brexit vote*








Almost 10,000 EU health workers have quit NHS since Brexit vote


Staff losses will intensify recruitment problems at health service, which now has 40,000 vacant nursing posts




www.theguardian.com






nothing to see here chaps, I cant see any problems whatsoever


----------



## Misterdog

RobinBHM said:


> current politicians are driven by vested self interest.



If only it were just the current ones.
I see party political dogma, as I see religion. People are wedded to an ideology and frame their world, to provide a perfect world, within that frame.
They then spend their lives trying to convince others that their vision/religion/politics is the one true path.

Sorry but I'm out.
I'll stick with the flawed democracy that we enjoy, 'other politics' is equally flawed.
Anyone who believes otherwise is the reason that the word dogma was created.


----------



## RobinBHM

How is the UK going to protect the fishing industry.

What is the solution? 

brexit is done, weve left the SM and CU, I know that. This isnt a discussion about pros and cons.

It is now a discussion of what can we do to stop the damage - these problems arent simply teething troubles -they will make many businesses unviable.

Unfortunately brexiters dont understand the benefits of the Single Market, until they do, Im not sure how we move forward.





Here is one example of the huge problems of extra paperwork

this is one example of an export health certificate for one lorry


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> So now the gang are saying it’s not a proper democracy ....... dear oh dear, maybe we should switch to the eu version where just one nominee is put forward and she still just scrapped in.
> Maybe an African style democracy


I dont think that's what Robin was saying. It is democracy, it's just that it's being perverted by well funded groups deceiving the electorate into voting against their own personal interests. Not that it's a UK specific problem; the US probably "leads" the world on that.

As pointed about several pages back, an irony of the large, lumbering, multi-national nature of the EU means that it's a bit harder for such lobbying groups to manipulate.


----------



## Misterdog

RobinBHM said:


> I cant see any problems whatsoever



Where would you rather be for your Covid vaccination ?



The UK: 9.79m


Germany: 2.47m


Italy: 1.99m
France: 1.53m.


----------



## RobinBHM

Misterdog said:


> If only it were just the current ones.



it isnt just the current ones and most Western democracies arent very re democratic.

But the current government in this government have taken self interest to a massive new level.

look at the connections they have to: US libertarian groups, propaganda think tanks, private healthcare, disaster capitalism, fossil fuel interest, climate change deniers









Mapped: Boris Johnson's Cabinet and the Tufton Street Lobbying Network


Boris Johnson has retained a core of ministers linked to a lobbying network pushing to weaken the UK’s environmental regulations in his first cabinet reshuffle since the general election. But the day also saw a number of high-profile sackings, potentially weakening the network’s influence in...




www.desmog.co.uk


----------



## RobinBHM

Misterdog said:


> Where would you rather be for your Covid vaccination ?
> 
> 
> 
> The UK: 9.79m
> 
> 
> Germany: 2.47m
> 
> 
> Italy: 1.99m
> France: 1.53m.



I am happy to say the UK has done very well with the vaccination programme and would not have been likely within the EU.

however, that was not the point being made. Vaccination success doesnt remove or diminish trade problems or the massive division over the last 4 years

perhaps I might say Id have preferred less than 100,000 deaths and 10,000 more NHS nurses in exchange for a slower vaccinatoin roll out.


----------



## Blackswanwood

RobinBHM said:


> How is the UK going to protect the fishing industry.
> 
> What is the solution?



Eat more fish!


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> The question u all keep asking us is being answered, then you all get moody because it wasn’t what u wanted to hear. Why is that our problem. I still am struggling to comprehend how stating nothing has changed for me is “gloating and jeering” maybe I should be self flagulating myself for having a very average unchanging lifestyle.


The thing is that plenty has changed for you (and me, and the rest of us); it's just that for most the changes may not be immediately obvious. 

If every time you left your house someone now insisted you fill in a long form before you drive your car you'd be very clearly inconvenienced. Obviously that's not happening; but any goods coming in and out of the country are now requiring such paperwork, thus leading to an increase in costs. That inevitably will have a knock on effect on anything you buy (e.g. even food).

That's a minor example, and the impact to political and personal rights and freedoms will likely be much harder to quantify, but most definitely present.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> The thing is that plenty has changed for you (and me, and the rest of us); it's just that for most the changes may not be immediately obvious.
> 
> If every time you left your house someone now insisted you fill in a long form before you drive your car you'd be very clearly inconvenienced. Obviously that's not happening; but any goods coming in and out of the country are now requiring such paperwork, thus leading to an increase in costs. That inevitably will have a knock on effect on anything you buy (e.g. even food).
> 
> That's a minor example, and the impact to political and personal rights and freedoms will likely be much harder to quantify, but most definitely present.


That wasn’t the question, stop manipulating things


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> I dont think that's what Robin was saying. It is democracy, it's just that it's being perverted by well funded groups deceiving the electorate into voting against their own personal interests. Not that it's a UK specific problem; the US probably "leads" the world on that.
> 
> As pointed about several pages back, an irony of the large, lumbering, multi-national nature of the EU means that it's a bit harder for such lobbying groups to manipulate.


Yet having only one leader too elect is fine, you are really rubbing up too each other today


----------



## RobinBHM

sploo said:


> I dont think that's what Robin was saying. It is democracy, it's just that it's being perverted by well funded groups deceiving the electorate into voting against their own personal interests. Not that it's a UK specific problem; the US probably "leads" the world on that.
> 
> As pointed about several pages back, an irony of the large, lumbering, multi-national nature of the EU means that it's a bit harder for such lobbying groups to manipulate.


yes indeed

The specific point I was making is that the democratic belief that the government wont deregulate because they are scared the people will vote against them.....is not true. 


the North have had decades of under investment and yet they voted for brexit and the ideology that led to that under investment.
Brexit wont bring jobs back to the industrial regions. Brexit will concentrate jobs into the city and the South East.

Brexit damage will mean support for it will wane over the next few years, as people drop ideology when it really affects their life. But brexit is a boiling frog -a bit like austerity, it will happen slowly, people wont notice the decline.


----------



## sploo

Misterdog said:


> Where would you rather be for your Covid vaccination ?
> 
> 
> 
> The UK: 9.79m
> 
> 
> Germany: 2.47m
> 
> 
> Italy: 1.99m
> France: 1.53m.


Noel will purge this thread of covid related posts as they're off topic.

The actual situation with these numbers is much more insidious and misleading. My (doctor) wife has just written a piece on this in answer to a question from a family member, and it's eye-watering to read. I don't know if there is a suitable thread on the forum, but if she's OK with it I could PM you a copy?


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> That wasn’t the question, stop manipulating things


Shrug.

Seemed like the question to me. What was it then?


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> Yet having only one leader too elect is fine, you are really rubbing up too each other today


I think you've misinterpreted Robin's post, then brought up a whataboutary argument re the EU, then deflected from another answer with the same whataboutary. 

But for what it's worth; the putting forward of a single candidate (who then somehow still nearly managed to loose) is rather comical.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> perhaps I might say Id have preferred less than 100,000 deaths and 10,000 more NHS nurses in exchange for a slower vaccinatoin roll out.


Trouble is no one will know how many deaths that may have caused. So it’s just rhetoric


----------



## Blackswanwood

sploo said:


> They risk losing their job _if the media the people read tells them they should be annoyed_. That's the killer issue.
> 
> I get a variety of media links pop up on my phone, and looking through the headlines from, say, The Express, someone who got their world view only from that source would be basically living in a parallel universe.



I do agree that media ownership needs to be looked at but it’s a lot harder to do than talk about on the internet. I’d prefer to see the likes of Murdoch out of UK media ownership. However there are plenty of people who find the Guardian and BBC biased and equally toxic so good luck with that one.


----------



## RobinBHM

doctor Bob said:


> Yet having only one leader too elect is fine, you are really rubbing up too each other today



No.

The European Parliament, European Commission and European Council have their own issues with lack of accountability and lack of democracy.

My pointing out limitations of our democracy does not mean I accept the EU with all its flaws. Im not a fan of the EU system.


you are using the footballerification argument: if you arent in the red team, you must be in the blue.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> No.
> 
> The European Parliament, European Commission and European Council have their own issues with lack of accountability and lack of democracy.
> 
> My pointing out limitations of our democracy does not mean I accept the EU with all its flaws. Im not a fan of the EU system.
> 
> 
> you are using the footballerification argument: if you arent in the red team, you must be in the blue.



Great reply, I have to completely agree and I too have questioned the binary ness of this thread. Thank you robin


----------



## Misterdog

RobinBHM said:


> But the current government in this government have taken self interest to a massive new level.



This could never happen under Labour of course.



> In the UK, Blair appears not to be valued for his political legacy — his service to the UK his and international statesmanship — but rather as one of a new breed of self-serving politicians, who literally spun a web of power, duped the public on the grounds for going to war, blindly supported of George W. Bush, left a party in turmoil, and then attained fabulous wealth and faux-celebrity lifestyle after leaving office.



Written in 2010.

I can already see the counter argument being written 'Tony Blair wasn't a true socialist'


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> Shrug.
> 
> Seemed like the question to me. What was it then?


If you look back, question from john brown. Seemed upset with reply, “my life has not changed” and then went into one that I was gloating and jeering.


----------



## doctor Bob

RobinBHM said:


> if you arent in the red team, you must be in the blue.



Never..... green and yellow, top of the championship


----------



## sploo

doctor Bob said:


> If you look back, question from john brown. Seemed upset with reply, “my life has not changed” and then went into one that I was gloating and jeering.


Fairy nuff.


----------



## doctor Bob

sploo said:


> Noel will purge this thread of covid related posts as they're off topic.
> 
> The actual situation with these numbers is much more insidious and misleading. My (doctor) wife has just written a piece on this in answer to a question from a family member, and it's eye-watering to read. I don't know if there is a suitable thread on the forum, but if she's OK with it I could PM you a copy?


I’d be interested to see that sploo if possible. From the coal face as such


----------



## Noel

Never understand why some, in defending Party A, say well Party B would be worse when both parties are as useless as each other.
Bit like buying a car that breaks down on a weekly basis and the garage saying "well, good thing you didn't buy a Trabant, they break down on a daily basis". Does that reassure you as you leave the garage with a happy smile on your face? As you walk a mile to the nearest bus stop.


----------



## doctor Bob

Noel said:


> Never understand why some, in defending Party A, say well Party B would be worse when both parties are as useless as each other.
> Bit like buying a car that breaks down on a weekly basis and the garage saying "well, good thing you didn't buy a Trabant, they break down on a daily basis". Does that reassure you as you leave the garage with a happy smile on your face? As you walk a mile to the nearest bus stop.


I’m certainly guilty of this at times, i genuinely believe politics and debates should not be binary, but I’m certainly not the worst, whether, left or right, leave or remain


----------



## Noel

sploo said:


> Noel will purge this thread of covid related posts as they're off topic.
> 
> The actual situation with these numbers is much more insidious and misleading. My (doctor) wife has just written a piece on this in answer to a question from a family member, and it's eye-watering to read. I don't know if there is a suitable thread on the forum, but if she's OK with it I could PM you a copy?



Stick it in the vax thread and see how it goes.


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> If you look back, question from john brown. Seemed upset with reply, “my life has not changed” and then went into one that I was gloating and jeering.


My question was why you post in this thread, if you haven't been affected. 
But since you and Rorschach have resorted to playground insults, I've lost interest. You carry on with your pot stirring.


----------



## Nick Laguna UK

Just back on EU shipments & to present the facts we are experiencing & there is no political view attached to this, but this is what it is at moment - we really hoped all this would have been sorted by now... so frustrating

I had a good retail customer just outside Belfast asking for a lathe carriage quote on Friday - we can't even attempt a quote for the foreseeable future as our forwarders have stopped quoting. They have no capacity left as they have been collecting goods but these do not leave UK until documents have cleared customs. As that is not happening their warehouses are full.. Pallets shipped to Ireland over 20 days ago are still not delivered!

We had a shipment to Holland rejected as we had put a small warranty part on as FOC. So created a fake invoice to overcome that.

Northern Ireland should have been easier, but now NI customers will have to pay import duty because we cannot prove machines will not end up in Southern Ireland - we have been unable to get an exemption for 'goods not at risk' as in theory someone from Southern Ireland could easily drive North to buy it and bypass the import duty..

Crazy for sure & not good for business
Cheers all, Nick


----------



## Droogs

That is a ridiculous situation for a business to find itself in Nick, I hope your customers are able to understand and remain loyal even if they have to wait


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> My question was why you post in this thread, if you haven't been affected.
> But since you and Rorschach have resorted to playground insults, I've lost interest. You carry on with your pot stirring.



No this was your question 


John Brown said:


> I just want to know in what tangible way Brexit has enhanced your life. Tangible, not some vague nonsense about sovereignty, or "unelected beaurocrats".



I replied that at present it was neither enhanced or made worse. At this point you said I was gloating and jeering, simply not true.
My question is how is having a different opinion to you, explaining my life at present was neither enhanced or made worse, gloating and jeering. As I keep saying it seems you only want like minded people on this thread.
I also asked you to look for my reasons for voting leave as they were not about what you had suggested, but you chose not too. At this point you got a bit shouty and demanding whilst I was having my tea.
I see no reason why I should not post on this thread unless Noel specicslly says it only for people who have been affected. Then it would be slight one sided.
Of course maybe I don’t understand the rules of an internet debate, is disagreeing not allowed. If you want to call having a different opinion or view, pot stirring then that’s fine.


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> No this was your question
> 
> 
> I replied that at present it was neither enhanced or made worse. At this point you said I was gloating and jeering, simply not true.
> My question is how is having a different opinion to you, explaining my life at present was neither enhanced or made worse, gloating and jeering. As I keep saying it seems you only want like minded people on this thread.
> I see no reason why I should not post on this thread unless Noel specicslly says it only for people who have been affected. Then it would be slight one sided


At that point I said that the only reason I could see for you to be engaging in this thread, was for gloating and jeering. I stick by that. But I have never " gone off on one", stamped my foot or pounded my first. Those are all inventions of yours, and appear to be typical of your debating style. I have also not resorted to puerile insults.
Nor have I posted silly pictures, to try and put down another member, as you did in another thread. When I called that low, you replied that you'd sunk lower than that before, but I see you accused me of a low shot.


----------



## doctor Bob

There is an ignore function. It works very well


----------



## RobinBHM

Nick Laguna UK said:


> Just back on EU shipments & to present the facts we are experiencing & there is no political view attached to this, but this is what it is at moment - we really hoped all this would have been sorted by now... so frustrating
> 
> I had a good retail customer just outside Belfast asking for a lathe carriage quote on Friday - we can't even attempt a quote for the foreseeable future as our forwarders have stopped quoting. They have no capacity left as they have been collecting goods but these do not leave UK until documents have cleared customs. As that is not happening their warehouses are full.. Pallets shipped to Ireland over 20 days ago are still not delivered!
> 
> We had a shipment to Holland rejected as we had put a small warranty part on as FOC. So created a fake invoice to overcome that.
> 
> Northern Ireland should have been easier, but now NI customers will have to pay import duty because we cannot prove machines will not end up in Southern Ireland - we have been unable to get an exemption for 'goods not at risk' as in theory someone from Southern Ireland could easily drive North to buy it and bypass the import duty..
> 
> Crazy for sure & not good for business
> Cheers all, Nick


Business is hard enough, it's crazy the UK has chosen to do this.

Small businesses will suffer more than large because of scales of economy.

Long term this country needs to move on from Brexit ideology and start to build a closer relationship with our largest trade partner to cut down these damaging trade barriers.


----------



## Daniel2

RobinBHM said:


> Business is hard enough, it's crazy the UK has chosen to do this.
> 
> Small businesses will suffer more than large because of scales of economy.
> 
> Long term this country needs to move on from Brexit ideology and start to build a closer relationship with our largest trade partner to cut down these damaging trade barriers.



Rebuilding what was already in place, you mean ?


----------



## John Brown

doctor Bob said:


> No this was your question
> 
> 
> I replied that at present it was neither enhanced or made worse. At this point you said I was gloating and jeering, simply not true.
> My question is how is having a different opinion to you, explaining my life at present was neither enhanced or made worse, gloating and jeering. As I keep saying it seems you only want like minded people on this thread.
> I also asked you to look for my reasons for voting leave as they were not about what you had suggested, but you chose not too. At this point you got a bit shouty and demanding whilst I was having my tea.
> I see no reason why I should not post on this thread unless Noel specicslly says it only for people who have been affected. Then it would be slight one sided.
> Of course maybe I don’t understand the rules of an internet debate, is disagreeing not allowed. If you want to call having a different opinion or view, pot stirring then that’s fine.


I'm fine with you posting wherever you like. I was merely trying to find out why you post on this particular thread, if all you want to say is "I'm alright, Jack".
But this is just pig wrestling now.


----------



## Rorschach

RobinBHM said:


> Long term this country needs to move on from Brexit ideology and start to build a closer relationship with our largest trade partner to cut down these damaging trade barriers.



I have absolutely no problem with building a strong trading relationship with the EU, indeed I welcome free trade. It was always political union that I was against. I know free movement is somewhere between the two before anyone accuses me of hypocrisy.


----------



## Rorschach

John Brown said:


> I'm fine with you posting wherever you like. I was merely trying to find out why you post on this particular thread, if all you want to say is "I'm alright, Jack".
> But this is just pig wrestling now.



I thought your name was John, or is Jack a nickname?


----------



## Daniel2

John Brown said:


> I'm fine with you posting wherever you like. I was merely trying to find out why you post on this particular thread, if all you want to say is "I'm alright, Jack".
> But this is just pig wrestling now.



And therein lies the flaw of the one person one vote system.
In this case, the majority of voters were in the camp of "makes no difference to me",
and were thus able to vote with emotion rather than objectivity. Albeit led along by MSM
and dodgy propaganda.


----------



## John Brown

Rorschach said:


> I thought your name was John, or is Jack a nickname?











Jack (given name) - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org




.


----------



## doctor Bob

John Brown said:


> I'm fine with you posting wherever you like. I was merely trying to find out why you post on this particular thread, if all you want to say is "I'm alright, Jack".
> But this is just pig wrestling now.


Agreed it’s pig wrestling and I’d like it to stop. However I had to answer your question due to the fact I was being accused of ignoring it, 3 times, so I answered it. I’m in a no win situation if you don’t want me to be honest and then accuse me of “I’m alright jack” when I reply. What do you actually want me to say, that may be easier for you.

I do think “my life hasn’t altered” is different to “I’m alright jack”


----------



## doctor Bob

Daniel2 said:


> And therein lies the flaw of the one person one vote system.
> In this case, the majority of voters were in the camp of "makes no difference to me",
> and were thus able to vote with emotion rather than objectivity. Albeit led along by MSM
> and dodgy propaganda.


So get rid of one man one vote? Surely it can’t be replaced with an alternative 
I don’t go along with that, everyone is equal.

Ps. I never voted on the principle “makes no difference to me” .... how could I know that 5 years ago.


----------



## Daniel2

doctor Bob said:


> So get rid of one man one vote? Surely it can’t be replaced with an alternative
> I don’t go along with that, everyone is equal.
> 
> Ps. I never voted on the principle “makes no difference to me” .... how could I know that 5 years ago.



For sure, it's by far the best system we've managed to come up with so far. But, it's not flawless.
The event in question demonstrated that more than adequately.
I am of the opinion that one should only use a vote if one is sufficiently qualified to do so.
By qualification, I mean sufficiently informed of all the wider issues & implications and that one
properly understands and assumes responsibility for what one is using that vote for.
Hence, the earlier suggestion of having an iq test, before being allowed to vote, is not such
a daft proposition. But, naturally, we cannot (and should not), go down that road.
@Blackswanwood , I may come across as a sore loser. I prefer to see it as a honeymoon period
of mourning and bemoaning. I will probably come out of it quite soon.
I agree, that there is no value in crying over spilt milk, and we can only look forward.
Who knows what the future holds ?

Keep happy everyone,
Daniel

PS; There are still an awful lot of dim people out there


----------



## doctor Bob

What IQ should be the cut off?


----------



## Daniel2

doctor Bob said:


> What IQ should be the cut off?



Oh, about 6.5, methinks. 
That should clear away a lot.


----------



## doctor Bob

I’m in then


----------



## doctor Bob

we should stop the boffins voting as well, just to balance it out.


----------



## Jacob

Misterdog said:


> This could never happen under Labour of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Written in 2010.
> 
> I can already see the counter argument being written 'Tony Blair wasn't a true socialist'


The counter argument is that Blair is history. 
In the meantime we've had Brown, Harman, Miliband, Harman again, Corbyn, all history, and now Starmer.
Corbyn and Miliband probably score highest in terms of commitment and lack of self interest. 
Starmer is emerging as a career politician - weakening party democracy and running the show with focus groups and 2nd rate PR agencies, as you might run a private golf club. He won't be around for long.


----------



## doctor Bob

I can’t disagree Jacob, but surely it needs a balancing act electable v too radical


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> I can’t disagree Jacob, but surely it needs a balancing act electable v too radical


The most radical government we've had since Attlee is Johnson's. Biggest changes since WW2, but not in a good way. Also deeply ideological - various half baked notions of neo liberalism, free market, wealth trickling down etc. all kicked off in 1979 and still failing to achieve anything at all.
In comparison Labour seems just pragmatic, wishing to put the house in order in a sensible way. And a distinctly possible way too, which is why the establishment went ape hsit and made sure we wouldn't win in 2019.


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> The most radical government we've had since Attlee is Johnson's. Biggest changes since WW2, but not in a good way. Also deeply ideological - various half baked notions of neo liberalism, free market, wealth trickling down etc. all kicked off in 1979 and still failing to achieve anything at all.
> In comparison Labour seems just pragmatic, wishing to put the house in order in a sensible way. And a distinctly possible way too, which is why the establishment went ape hsit and made sure we wouldn't win in 2019.



 ok thank you


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> The most radical government we've had since Attlee is Johnson's. Biggest changes since WW2, but not in a good way. Also deeply ideological - various half baked notions of neo liberalism, free market, wealth trickling down etc. all kicked off in 1979 and still failing to achieve anything at all.
> In comparison Labour seems just pragmatic, wishing to put the house in order in a sensible way. And a distinctly possible way too, which is why the establishment went ape hsit and made sure we wouldn't win in 2019.



Damn you must smoke some good stuff!


----------



## doctor Bob

Jacob said:


> which is why the establishment went ape hsit and made sure we wouldn't win in 2019.



You are a very bright man Jacob, how come you only came to this conclusion after you lost by a massive landslide majority. You were convinced you would win until the exit poll. Surely if it was such a media exercise you or the Labour Party would have seen it. John McDonalds face on the bbc was just shock, he wasn’t bright enough to see this obvious establishment stitch up.

I’d say it’s more to do with the working man not liking what the Labour Party has become, although some people were talking about the problem decades ago, too focus on minor issues and not the bigger picture


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob said:


> You are a very bright man Jacob, how come you only came to this conclusion after you lost by a massive landslide majority. You were convinced you would win until the exit poll.


Not at all. It's always unknown. Nobody expected labour to get so close in 2017 either


> Surely if it was such a media exercise you or the Labour Party would have seen it.


We did see it. Everybody saw it. It was the most intensive campaign against a single party leader ever. All the right wing press was full of it day after day, from the day Corbyn became leader. Even the Guardian ran anti Corbyn rants (its under new "management" and is not the paper it was.


> .............
> I’d say it’s more to do with the working man not liking what the Labour Party has become, although some people were talking about the problem decades ago, too focus on minor issues and not the bigger picture


The main objection (besides the intense Corbyn hate campaign) was that Labour _was_ looking at the bigger picture, but were being told that the agenda was impossible, in the same way (and by the same people) they were being told that brexit was the golden future.
Massive lies in both cases. People need to think for themselves and not read the Daily Mail.


----------



## Rorschach

Jacob said:


> Not at all. It's always unknown. Nobody expected labour to get so close in 2017 eitherWe did see it. Everybody saw it. It was the most intensive campaign against a single party leader ever. All the right wing press was full of it day after day, from the day Corbyn became leader. Even the Guardian ran anti Corbyn rants (its under new "management" and is not the paper it was.The main objection (besides the intense Corbyn hate campaign) was that Labour _was_ looking at the bigger picture, but were being told that the agenda was impossible, in the same way (and by the same people) they were being told that brexit was the golden future.
> Massive lies in both cases. People need to think for themselves and not read the Daily Mail.



Are you sure that you and I are living in the same country? I don't know what media you were looking at but I damn sure wasn't seeing it, everything I saw was hailing Corbyn as the new messiah and Brexit was going to be the end of civilisation.

Or is it more likely you were seeing what you wanted to see so you didn't have to accept the reality that you are of a minority view and that most people around you don't want to live under the same circumstances as you do. It sounds to me like you are part of the same champagne socialist bubble as the metropolitan elites living in London and working for the BBC etc. I suspect while you profess marxist views you actually live very comfortably thanks to a capitalist system and Thatcherite policies. Am I wrong or do you actually live in a small council house struggling to get by and wearing a donkey jacket when you visit the working mens club?


----------



## Jake

Rorschach said:


> Circle jerk is the term I usually hear used. Very common among the champagne socialists.



Seems like you and Bob have a little circle yourselves.


----------



## doctor Bob

Anyway, you know what’s what now, can’t go wrong next time, b impossible


----------



## Jacob

Rorschach said:


> Are you sure that you and I are living in the same country? I don't know what media you were looking at but I damn sure wasn't seeing it, everything I saw was hailing Corbyn as the new messiah and Brexit was going to be the end of civilisation.
> 
> Or is it more likely you were seeing what you wanted to see so you didn't have to accept the reality that you are of a minority view and that most people around you don't want to live under the same circumstances as you do. It sounds to me like you are part of the same champagne socialist bubble as the metropolitan elites living in London and working for the BBC etc. I suspect while you profess marxist views you actually live very comfortably thanks to a capitalist system and Thatcherite policies. Am I wrong or do you actually live in a small council house struggling to get by and wearing a donkey jacket when you visit the working mens club?


Amazing how many Daily Mail cliches you can pack into one post!
2017 totals 3 main parties
Tory 13,636,684. Labour 12,878,460. Scots Nats 977,569. Tories minority here!
2019 ditto13,966,454, 10,269,051, 1,242,380 Still a substantial Labour vote but not enough we know. Big swing from lib dems to tories.
Just pointing out that Labour voters are not a tiny weird minority of people with obscure views.* 
It might look like it to you but perhaps you don't get out enough!
PS and brexit may not be the end of civilisation (yet) but it's obviously a total disaster, as widely forecast by a huge number of people, including a big majority of Labour supporters, as voted against by majority in Scotland, NI and would be Wales now they've seen the outcome.
*That's the brexit party!


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## Misterdog

Jacob said:


> People need to think for themselves and not read the Daily Mail.



Nor the Socialist Worker newspaper.

It's all opinion and at the end of the day, if you don't portray yourself as electable to the majority, you don't get the 'job'.

As with life.


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## Jacob

Misterdog said:


> Nor the Socialist Worker newspaper.
> 
> It's all opinion and at the end of the day, if you don't portray yourself as electable to the majority, you don't get the 'job'.
> 
> As with life.


It depends on who is doing the portraying.

Socialist Worker weekly circulation about 8000 i.e. about 1100 daily. 
Daily Mail daily circulation 1,134,184. One thousand times the SW!


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## Misterdog

Jacob said:


> PS and brexit may not be the end of civilisation (yet) but it's obviously a total disaster, as widely forecast by a huge number of people, including a big majority of Labour supporters,



So you can draw a definitive conclusion after 4 weeks - wow.

If a 'big majority of labour supporters' knew this it's a shame that after 4 years of debate the party and JC could not agree a policy to fight it.

Maybe just one example of how they would dither around in government if elected ?


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## Blackswanwood

Just wondering if this forum rule has been completely dispensed with?


(6a.) Politics.
Over the years there has been one subject that has caused heated debates on the forums and that is politics. For that reason political discussion, in particular party political comments in a thread are not regarded as acceptable, please remember this is a woodworking forum after all. We do however understand that politics effects everyday life which is why some topics may be allowed depending on the circumstances.


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## Misterdog

Jacob said:


> Socialist Worker weekly circulation about 8000



What is that as a percentage of the 66,000,000 population of the UK ?


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## Jacob

Misterdog said:


> So you can draw a definitive conclusion after 4 weeks - wow.
> .....


Nearly 5 years since the referendum. Plenty of time to work it all out. Pity the oven ready deal wasn't ready!


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## MikeK

This thread has deviated considerably from the original topic and has apparently run its course.


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