# Help needed for designing / planning a kitchen.



## EdK (19 Aug 2014)

Hi,
I have an empty room that needs to become a kitchen and would like some advice on all of the aspects.

I've been looking online a bit and reading some books but have become a bit bogged down in the choices.

So far I've worked out that at a very basic level I'll need to cut sheet materials so have bought a track saw (festool ts55). I have hand tools and some power tools (domino / router / scms saw).

It's not a massive room and I'd like to see if I can keep it to just base units but may have to have a couple of wall cupboards too.

I like drawers more than cupboards but need to draw it all out.

At the moment I'm looking for a construction process that I'm happy with so that I get on and order the materials.

Should I look at and order the things like oven / hob / sink / fridge etc first?

I have cleared out the room next door and will be using that as the 'workshop' and material store.

All very vague at the moment....
Thanks,
Ed


----------



## cusimar9 (19 Aug 2014)

Hi Edk,

I'm shortly embarking on a similar process although I'll be upgrading an already existing kitchen. To save costs I'll be re-using some of the cupboards and just fitting new worktops / doors / trim where necessary.

About half the kitchen will need redoing entirely from empty.

For the price of ready made base cabinets I'm just going to buy and assemble these. I considered making the worktops as well but again decided it probably wasn't worth the effort.

If you're making everything yourself then obviously that's a bit more work. Given your choice of track saw it sounds like you are!

In terms of planning/design you absolutely need to decide what you want in terms of sinks / hob / oven / fridge and then design the rest of the kitchen around those. Until you get a unit in front of you there will always be a measurement you didn't bear in mind and you'll be very annoyed to find you have to make tweaks to your nice new kitchen! If you have the luxury of buying appliances first then go ahead.

If you're buying cupboards off the shelf then have a look at the standard sizes available and bear these in mind. If you're buying worktops again these come in standard widths so have a look at what's available. Pay attention to the details like corner cupboards etc and plan everything out with care, that'll result in fewer surprises.


----------



## andersonec (19 Aug 2014)

Go to a few kitchen retailers and get them to do a design for you then pick the best bits from the selection you have gathered.

Andy


----------



## sammy.se (20 Aug 2014)

Hi, 

I agree about the using the retailers for the design for some ideas - they will whip up some nice designs for your on their software - but bare in mind that they want to maximise the sale, so they might draw in more units for a given space (e.g. 3 x 400mm units instead of 2 x 600mm units) so make sure you ask them what their thought process is behind specifying the number and size of units.

Definitely think of cooker and fridge you want first. For example, a free standing 'range' type cooker will be wider and not require a unit around it. However, an integrated cooker will require you to build a unit - and if it's a wall mounted oven you'll need to decide where this floor to ceiling (almost) until will be situated in your kitchen, and plan around that. same goes with the fridge - is it going to be freestanding, or integrated? 1000mm, 600mm or 500mm wide? Will it need a water pipe if it will have an integrated ice/water dispenser? etc. What about an integrated Microwave? etc. Sink - classic porcelain style sink, or the normal stainless steel insert? Both will impact your unit design.

You also need to remember that you need to vent your stove top, so if it's not an external wall your stove is against, you'll need to consider how you will route the venting through the ceiling!

Personally, I would also start looking at all the nifty ironmongery inserts you can get also - e.g. slide out larder wire trays, slide out wall unit inserts etc, as I think they give you really good access to the space and you can design your cabinets around that.

Also - is the floor already done, or will it need tiling? Don't forget that can add a few few mm to the ground height and can scupper your plans!

So, personally, I would tackle it in this order:
1) Draw up your wish list of appliances - have your first choice of each, plus a backup choice in case the first choice isn't feasible when you do you design.
2) once you've decided what appliances you ideally want, get a couple of the retailers in to design for you - nab their ideas
3) Decide what inserts you want to use (if any) as might determine what size units you need to build
4) factor in the messy stuff - where's the venting going to go? floor done? etc
5) Build your units

Hope that helps.

Sammy


----------



## Ian down london way (20 Aug 2014)

As a consumer of kitchen designs, don't forget:
Place to put a bin (in the open, under sink, wherever)
Place to put trays (tall thin area, maybe using gap between standard sized cupboards
Sink Muncher or not (uses lots of undersink area);
if applicable, place to store mop, bucket, broom (if kitchen encompases utility storage).
Consider putting one or two sockets low down / on extension leads, so as to allow you to put in LED kick board lighting (cheap, but nice effect)
Ikea do some interesting wardrobe LED lighting strips which you switch on when you open the door (proximity sensor). Nice effect.


----------



## sammy.se (20 Aug 2014)

So true about the bin and the mop!! I have a space for the bin. But the mop is a pain in the bum!!


----------



## Ian down london way (20 Aug 2014)

Oh, and seriously consider options for underfloor heating.


----------



## RobinBHM (20 Aug 2014)

Are your doors going to be front frame or overlay construction? that will have an influence on set out, appliance choice etc.

Either way, I would draw a plan first (allowing maybe 650mm worktop depth if you can, 600mm if very tight especially for integrated appliances). Then from the plan the elevation can be drawn. I find it easier to draw the view of the door / drawer layout first then use that as the set out for the carcases. Dont forget to allow sufficient space for services. Switches for appliances can be fitted into an adjacent cabinet -often a jigsaw cutout and a plastic backbox for plasterboard works. 

If you are making your own carcases and doors then you can ignore standard sizes. Set out the appliances first as these dictate what is left for cabinets. The cabinets sizes can then be worked out.

Of course we wont complain if you insist on a WIP thread! (with images!)


----------



## Ian down london way (20 Aug 2014)

Lots of images !!


----------



## EdK (20 Aug 2014)

Thanks for the input and advice!

Yes, I have tiled the floor and have done the electrics and basic plumbing.

Will post some pics and a rough dimension plan at the weekend.

I've got a rough idea for the layout as mentioned before, more drawers than cupboards / reduced wall units.

As for the appliances, I will probably choose some and see how they fit in the design and then amend as needed.

I've been looking at kitchen building books in the library at lunchtimes and although they give alot of good ideas some of them are dated and most are from the USA.

I got a price list for sheet materials yesterday and these are the ones that immediately spring to mind but having said that I am not sure on what is suitable:

Qtr cut oak 2 sides mdf 6mm x 2440 x 1220 = £38.86
Qtr cut oak 2 sides mdf 13mm x 2440 x 1220 = £46.98
Qtr cut oak 2 sides mdf 19mm x 2440 x 1220 = £54.10
Caberwood pro standard grade mdf 18mm = £26.36
Caberwood pro standard grade mdf 12mm = £19.86
Caberwood pro standard grade mdf 9mm = £16.91
Caberwood pro standard grade mdf 6mm = £13.67
Caberwood pro MR grade mdf 18mm = £30.26
WBP exterior plywood BB/CC 18mm x 2440 x 1220 = £44.75
WBP exterior plywood BB/CC 15mm x 2440 x 1220 = £38.88
WBP exterior plywood BB/CC 12mm x 2440 x 1220 = £30.94
Wisa-spruce III/III grade plywood 9mm = £17.46
Wisa-spruce III/III grade plywood 12mm = £22.98
Wisa-spruce II/III shuttering plywood 18mm = £31.97

My rough understanding is that you can use MDF or ply for the carcasses (yes, I am a newbie  )
I was planning on using domino for joints - good idea or better off getting a biscuit jointer for man made sheet material?

What thickness should I be looking at : 18mm ?

Think I am happy making the doors as had a go for a bathroom undersink unit that turned out ok ( bathroom-sink-cabinet-unfinished-t80642.html ).

Alot of questions... just trying to work it all out - seems like a big project but don't have the lump sum for a bought kitchen and have the time to make one (and I'd like to learn more  ).
Thanks,
Ed


----------



## RobinBHM (20 Aug 2014)

I suppose 18mm melamine faced chipboard is often used for carcases. 18mm MR mdf for painting or 19mm mdf if you decide on veneered. For a plywood choice I like birch plywood. Far eastern plywood, often WPB is fine but splinters easily and cheaper versions, especially cheap non WPB chinese production ply may contain voids.

Birch plywood makes a great material for drawer boxes, maybe 15mm for sides and 6mm for bottoms. Concealed drawer runners, self close adds a professional touch. As a tip for concealed runners, make the drawer 1mm oversize for a loose fit, thats allows the runner to wotk smoothly.

18mm mfc is a good choice for carcase material as it is prefinished. Not easy to cut cleanly without chipping.

Mdf and veneered boards need finishing. Painting mdf carcases is a lot of wotk.

I actually just screw together the carcases with confirmat screws from Hafele. 

Base height can of course be whatever you choose. It is common to see a carcase height of 720mm, allowing 140mm for plinth feet creates an overall height of 860mm then add on 40mm for worktop =900mm.


----------



## Ian down london way (20 Aug 2014)

Most of my current kitchen was made with MDF carcasses. One part that didn't work at all well, was the supports for the sink. After the mastic around the sink had perished, and let through water, the MDF swelled terribly, and sagged. I had to put in some additional vertical members (oak) to prop it up. Simialr stuff happened above the dish washer, as the steam which comes out when you open it too early (and leave it ajar to cool down) got through the paint, into the MFD, which swelled, cracked the paint, and then again had lots of trouble. So, any areas that may get wet or steamy, use solid hard wood.

Just a thought.


----------



## rdesign (21 Aug 2014)

really if moneys tight don't buy mdf or ply wood for the cabinet boxes. 
white melamine (Particle Board) butt joined solid bottom screwed through the sides two 4 inch nailers on top groove in sides and bottom with router for a 1/4 inch back and its done. use plywood for sink base and your toe kick. easiest was to do the toe kick is rip 4 inch ply wood strips and make a long base. level it and screw it to the floor and place your cabinets on top ! adjustable plastic legs take ages to level and to get the run right. Then attach a nice 1/4 inch ply painted or laminated length to the kick pushed tight to the floor so if theirs a gap its at the top no one will see it  spend ur time and money on the doors and countertops and finished ends thats what people see.

building commercial cabinets for a year now miss real wood the yanks love laminating everything.

regards Richard


----------



## Graham Orm (21 Aug 2014)

sammy.se":2dk8gl4r said:


> So true about the bin and the mop!! I have a space for the bin. But the mop is a pain in the bum!!



You're doing it wrong


----------



## morfa (21 Aug 2014)

You're doing it on a budget, but you can afford to splash out for a festool track saw? That said, you don't need much once you've bought that.

I'd use Birch ply. Which costs about £50 + VAT at my local yard. They'll also do a few cuts for you if you need that. Some places will cut the whole lot for you to your plan if you pay a little extra. That would have saved you a few bob. As others have said, steer clear of MDF (I say, as I look at my mdf kitchen cabinets). It just won't cope with the moisture.

Don't bother with dominos and biscuits and all that faff which requires lots of expensive extra kit. Get a simple pocket hole jig and a box of screws from Kreg. If you're using Birch ply this will work perfectly (Berncarpenter of this parish makes excellent kitchen cabinets in this fashion and he's a pro, so know's his stuff).

This is what I got:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0088CPBRE

The screws you buy will depend on the thickness of your material. But for 18mm I think it's 1 1/4" coarse screws. Buy some cheap ply and make a few test boxes if you've never made them before. It's not really that hard, but you'll screw up a few times, so worth making the mistakes on ones that don't matter so much.


----------



## Phill joiner (21 Aug 2014)

I think you should think about what style you're going for first..... inframe traditional , modern , painted , stained. These all have an influence on things like oven style, tap style, sink style.
What are you going to do in the corners of the kitchen..... Access into corner units can be a pain. Appliance one side and drawers the other and you can't get in the corner.
Allow 30/40mm again in the corners so when the doors or drawers open they miss the handles. 
Worktop material? This influences what sink can be fitted........ UNDERMOUNT IN A LAMINATED TOP IS A NO NO. Belfast sink in a laminate top needs to be lifted up through the top so the edges can be sealed.
Allow 40mm min voids in the back of units which need pipes running behind.
I could go on and on but it all comes down to planning and drawing it out in detail as much as possible.
Personally if I was going to spend time building my own kitchen then I would use the best quality birch ply material I could. You also need iron on edging.
If you post up some room sizes and what you're thinking of then I can point you in the right direction.


----------



## Shultzy (21 Aug 2014)

Hi Edk, I've just finished a new kitchen with all drawers using pocket hole joinery. If you look at my post you wil;l find a lot of useful info. I have the complete design in sketchup and if you want some of the base and wall unit let me know


----------



## EdK (22 Aug 2014)

OK - budget wise I plan on spending a bit each month (hence the track saw). I'm not strapped for cash and this isn't a project that I'm going to scrimp on - just not going to drop alot of cash on in one go - can siphon some off the monthly salary (still have a day job  ).

I looked at off the shelf kitchens / getting someone to do it for me and didn't like the quality / style. Hopefully I can make some better material choices and by making it myself I can learn and also get something that fits well (and hopefully not screw up too much). Anyway, that's my thoughts on the budget.

Rough thoughts without knowing much: birch ply / blum drawer slides / cherry doors / possibly a painted island unit / probably granite work tops (whole island is granite here in Guernsey).

Not sure about the cherry TBH... everyone seems to use alot of oak in kitchens - maybe with good reason!

(Then I can start on all the bedroom cupboards / storage...)


----------



## morfa (22 Aug 2014)

EdK":3nb0b0ed said:


> Not sure about the cherry TBH... everyone seems to use alot of oak in kitchens - maybe with good reason!



Fair enough on doing it bit by bit. It's hard work and I wouldn't want to put you off, but I know that mine (still not finished) has been really hard to get it all done. If you're able and willing to block out whole weekends to putting the hours in then it's possible to do it all. But I remember spending the best part of a couple of months working most evenings and all weekend long to get mine half done. Going to have to put some more effort in now to get it finished off before christmas.

Oak is mainly used cause there is a perception that it's 'premium'. It isn't really, it's just that oak was very common back in the day, so was widely used. As a result now a days, it's popular. I could be wrong about that, but that's what it seems like. Most people couldn't tell oak from cherry from sycamore, so as long as you like it, then that's fine.

Cherry doesn't have tannin in it, so won't turn everything black when you're working it. Also with oak you have to be careful what kind of metal you screw into it. According to this link, Cherry is a good choice:

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... ck-cherry/

Personally I've never used cherry however. Tulipwood/popular is a good choice if you're going to paint your doors. It's cheap, stable and easy to work.


----------



## RobinBHM (22 Aug 2014)

In recent years the trend of having a mixture of natural timber and painted can be stunning, so I think you idea of a contrasting island could work very well. 

Cherry can be a nice timber for a kitchen and it machines and sands well. Can look great with dark granite.

Cherry trees have a lot of sap so if you want all the dark heartwood, be prepared to pay a premium or allow a lot of waste. If you can see the timber before buying it would be well worth it. 

Cherry darkens quite a bit as it ages, it may look pinkish when freshly machined but tones down, so allow for this when considering colours


----------



## Graham Orm (22 Aug 2014)

Try this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AejTGYLN6c


----------



## EdK (26 Oct 2014)

Well slow start....
Just made a quick model in SketchUp :






First time using SU and seems ok - I may have made some mistakes but will double check it all - I think I'll just use it as a starting point for rough design.

Here is an older idea of what I wanted :





Bought a Rangemaster Pro+ 90cm induction : http://www.rangemaster.co.uk/range-cook ... -induction

Kitchen floor is all down now and sealed/grouted :





























The range gets delivered in 4 weeks or so, have priced up a variety of granite worktops to get an idea on price and need to get planning!

I guess I'll plan the units/cabinets around the range in SketchUp to get an idea of layout and configuration.


----------



## EdK (24 Nov 2014)

Well I've roughed out some ideas in Sketchup (I am a beginner so go easy!):











Other image links here (I won't post them all in-line on this page):

http://www.pixelstripper.com/ftpedward/ ... ugh-03.jpg
http://www.pixelstripper.com/ftpedward/ ... ugh-04.jpg
http://www.pixelstripper.com/ftpedward/ ... ugh-05.jpg
http://www.pixelstripper.com/ftpedward/ ... ugh-06.jpg
http://www.pixelstripper.com/ftpedward/ ... ugh-07.jpg
http://www.pixelstripper.com/ftpedward/ ... ugh-08.jpg

I think I have enough counter topage.
The counter will run over the washing machine and dishwasher, across the sink then to the range. And continue the other side of the range

Issues
The area to the left of the range is a little awkward. I'm not sure that the wall units to the right of the fridge/larder will have enough access room if you stnad in the corner and reach up?

I'd like to have a table in the kitchen and I've blocked in a space for one that is 1500mm x 1000mm which I'm hoping will be large enough for 6 once pulled out from the wall.
Also I could rotate the table against the long bare wall for daily use.

I also thought about not having a table in the kitchen and using that space for either a larder / dresser unit for storage or some smaller storage and then a small island in the middle of the room.
I don't think that I can fit in an island but could probably make more storage in place of the table.

I've mercilessly stolen RogerM's idea for hafele le mans corner units and I've planned these as 1010mm x 600mm units.

Any thoughts?

Once the plans are roughly planned I will draw them up properly (or roughly work out the MFC that I need and order that - will take time to get here...)

Cheers,
Ed


----------



## EdK (24 Nov 2014)

Another top tip from RogerM - the cutting list software (http://www.rasterweq.com/specifications.htm)

Just had a play and it has worked out that I need the following:

2800 x 2070 Egger MFC 18mm x 4 sheets
2800 x 2070 Egger MFC 8mm x 3 sheets

That's great and takes out alot of guess work (although the sizes that I entered were rough)

For the wall units should they have a top?
I've specified 18mm base and sides and then an 8mm back.
The base units have an 18mm strip or two across the top for supporting the granite work top.

I've specc'd the wall units to be 18mm base & sides with an 8mm back and a solid 8mm top.
Should the wall units have an 8mm top or a 18mm top? I thought it would be just to stop dust rather than anything too structural?

Going to work out some bedroom storage / cupboards now to add on to the order....
Planning things is sooo frustrating I feel... (v. necessary, but I fell like I'm not actually making anything!).
Ed


----------



## EdK (24 Nov 2014)

More things...(too much coffee!)

Tools to buy:

Pocket hole jig 
I've seen the Kreg ones and the UKJ ones. Any advice? Is the basic one ok (£75 ish)
What length & type of screws to use?

Router bits
Bead cutter. Wealdon 4.8mm diam. one (T2502B - http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... ll_69.html)
or
Wealdon 6.4mm diam one (T2503B - 1/2 - http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... ge_70.html) ?
Am leaning towards the 6.4mm but hard to visualise as this is new to me!

Mortar groove. Wealdon 45 degree T1910 - 1/2 - http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... ve_80.html )

I have a TS55. Is the standard blade it comes with fine for cutting MFC?

What screws are normally used for screwing the MFC cabinet parts together? I am new to MFC, but was planning on some 6mm dominos for reference and then screw the sides to the base/top etc. What type and what length of screws would be good?

What screws for joining different MFC cabinets together? ie you have two boxes made up and want to fix them together. I noticed that RogerM has used what looks like 2x large headed silvery screws... any info?!

What fixings for attaching base units to walls and wall units to walls?
Do you use brackets to attach the wall units?

Thanks for any advice - feel like I'm edging closer to starting....
Ed


----------



## morfa (26 Nov 2014)

I have the Kreg jig. You don't need the swanky holder, just the basic £30 jig set will do. In fact it's more flexible if you just have the smaller jig. The big holder can't fit into a lot of places. I have this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0088CPBRE

It's a Kreg R3 Mini Jig. Size of screws depends on the thickness and type of wood. The mini-jig comes with a pack of test screws, so use them and buy a box of whatever you need.


----------



## Phill joiner (1 Dec 2014)

Can I ask why the larder unit is 700mm wide next to the fridge? If you could make the larder unit 600 wide to match the fridge it would look better......And it would allow you to make the 700 wall unit next to it an 800mm wide unit(2x400 wide doors). A 700mm wide door is big when open. Also check what size doors you need for a le man's corners. I think it's 450mm min.
I would us 18mm thick material for the backs of the base units, run to the top. Then a 100mm stretcher rail run flat along the front edge. When you cut your carcase out, cut a full bottom piece and top piece then rip 100mm off one....That will do the stretcher rail and the shelf. If that makes sense.
Hope this helps.


----------



## EdK (1 Dec 2014)

Thanks morfa - I will have a look at the R3 - good advice.

Thanks Phill - I made the larder as wide as I could just to fill the space - not a good decision and I will reduce this so that the corner units and wall units work out better as you suggest.
I'll redo the drawing when I get time and hopefully it'll all work out a little better.

Thanks,
Ed


----------

