# Narex Chisels - lots of photos



## scubadoo (21 Feb 2012)

Just received my set of 6 cabinetmakers chisels and a 6mm mortice from Workshopheaven. I ordered them yesterday - great service from Matthew. I chose the chisels after reading a few threads on them and some advice in a thread i posted here help-on-choosing-chisels-and-block-plane-needed-please-t56196.html And for a more or less first time chisel-er, the price was a big plus.












I'm suprised how light they are but they seem very nicely balanced and feel very nice in the hand. I should say that my only previous chisels have been some cheap Stanley ones with plastic handles and one from Bristol Design tools (which developed a weird blue crazing, very fine but over the whole of the metal - no idea what that was) and some lovely Pfeil carving tools that I bought for my wife.
















They are obviously in no way as nice quality as the Pfeils but seem as nice as the Bristols, apart from........

What lets them down a little bit on the aesthetics is the look of the handles. The 'brass' ferule looks a bit cheap and I just don't understand why they stain the beech brown. Why not leave them natural? I guess beech is used because it's cheap? With some nice ash these chisels would look fantastic, but they would presumably be more expensive as well and it's the value for money that made them so tempting.











They look like they will need fettling and sharpening which i'm not suprised by. You can feel the slight grooves on the underside left from the machining. They do feel pretty sharp though and are definitely usable out of the box but really do need a proper honing - better learn how to do that then :lol:


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## Dodge (21 Feb 2012)

Glad you are pleased with them - i am using them on my bench and with the exception of the look of the ferrule/handle as you mention they are excellent and at the end of the day its the cutty bit at the end thats important! :mrgreen:


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## Modernist (21 Feb 2012)

Not wishing to dampen your enthusiasm but I hope the quality of the grinding on the underside is better than the top, judging by the 3rd pic. It looks like it was ground on the back of a breeze block. They cannot possibly have a decent edge now and look like they are going to require a deal of work to get them there. With a bit of luck the steel will be OK when you've done.


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## woodbloke (22 Feb 2012)

You may also find that the first mm or so of the blade is a bit 'mushy' and soft, once you've ground past it a couple of times you'll be into the 'good stuff' - Rob


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## Newbie_Neil (22 Feb 2012)

woodbloke":24nlglqp said:


> You may also find that the first mm or so of the blade is a bit 'mushy' and soft, once you've ground past it a couple of times you'll be into the 'good stuff' - Rob



+1

Neil


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## scubadoo (22 Feb 2012)

Ah well, change of plan - after looking at them for a while and comparing them to my Pfeil carving tools, I've decided to return them. At the end of the day, i just didn't like the look of them and the machining seemed a little rough and ready. They probably are the best tools in this price range but I think I'd rather pay a few pounds more per chisel and get something nicer. I'm keeping the 6mm as I'd used it on a test piece.

Workshopheaven have been good about it, and I've ordered an Ashley Iles 1" chisel to have a look at. 

I've also ordered 2 of the Pfeil Carpenters chisels -for around £17 each - as I was so impressed with their carving tools. I may also look for some oldies on ebay and try a new Sorby or Kirschen as well. I'd quite like to try a variety.

This in no way means that I think they're bad tools, I just want something that makes me happy when I use them - functional and beautiful.


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## Doug B (22 Feb 2012)

scubadoo":34u9no1o said:


> Ah well, change of plan - after looking at them for a while and comparing them to my Pfeil carving tools, I've decided to return them. At the end of the day, i just didn't like the look of them and the machining seemed a little rough and ready.



I can understand your change of mind, when I finally got to see a set last October I was completely under whelmed by every aspect of them, what I can`t understand is the hype that has surrounded them.


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## James C (22 Feb 2012)

Doug B":3hgxupa2 said:


> scubadoo":3hgxupa2 said:
> 
> 
> > Ah well, change of plan - after looking at them for a while and comparing them to my Pfeil carving tools, I've decided to return them. At the end of the day, i just didn't like the look of them and the machining seemed a little rough and ready.
> ...



I'm wondering if it is more of a consistency problem. I got a couple of these chisels last week, 5 in total and one of the chisels had a slightly dodgy back with the rest slightly hollow ground as expected.

The primary bevels and the ferrules were all in great condition and my chisels have been performing really well.


Matthew @ Workshop Heaven has asked me to return the single chisel I was unhappy with and he would get it sorted. So excellent service strikes again.


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## scubadoo (22 Feb 2012)

Doug B":31fryogm said:


> scubadoo":31fryogm said:
> 
> 
> > Ah well, change of plan - after looking at them for a while and comparing them to my Pfeil carving tools, I've decided to return them. At the end of the day, i just didn't like the look of them and the machining seemed a little rough and ready.
> ...



underwhelmed is probably the right word.

I'm looking forward to getting the Ashley Iles 1" and I also love the design of their elliptical dovetail chisels.

I'll post some pics of the AI and the Pfeils if anyone would like to see them.


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2012)

Hate to say but; I told you so! There was a similar chisel thread a bit back where I said not to buy Narex. Reason being that they were being heavily promoted on this site and everybody was getting over excited about what were obviously just some cheap imported chisels. Cheap imported is OK of course but you get what you pay for.
Ashley Iles a lot nicer but three times the price, as you would expect. 
But why buy a "set" anyway? Why not just get them in ones and twos as you need them? Not necessarily the same make either. It's not like a mechanic's socket set where you really need the range of sizes all neatly arrayed side by side so you can put your hands on the right one straightaway. There are very few occasions when only a single specific size of chisel will do the job. Morticing yes, but not the others.
And don't forget to buy some wood!

PS what were they like on the flat face side? Back doesn't matter much, bevel gets honed away but face is important. If the faces are as bad as the back I'd bin them! Those cheapo axminsters look like a better deal.


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## bugbear (23 Feb 2012)

Jacob":3fb1sq85 said:


> PS what were they like on the flat face side? Back doesn't matter much, bevel gets honed away but face is important.



The flat side is (also) normally called the back. I point this out for the benefit of the OP.

Yes, this is surprising.

BugBear


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

Jacob":naf7xlyg said:


> But why buy a "set" anyway? Why not just get them in ones and twos as you need them? Not necessarily the same make either.



That's why I'm doing now, just getting three from 2 different brands.


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

All of the faces seemed pretty much the same to me. I should add that they look worse in the photos than they actually were, i just have a very good macro lens and the parallel lines weren't as grooved as they appeared.


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## GazPal (23 Feb 2012)

bugbear":24psq7cr said:


> Jacob":24psq7cr said:
> 
> 
> > PS what were they like on the flat face side? Back doesn't matter much, bevel gets honed away but face is important.
> ...




I think you'll find the majority - before the interweb and americunisation - commonly called the flat of a blade/iron it's face and the bevel was applied to it's back. This was primarily due to the fact the flat of a blade/iron faces the direction of work, whilst the bevelled back of the blade/iron faces away from the work. (In addition to this, knives don't have a face side unless sharpened from one side of the blade and creating a flat face on the other. The area behind a knife or sword's sharpening bevel is called the back or spine of the blade).


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2012)

In my experience it's only on this forum that people call the face the back. Mind you I've had a quiet life.
I didn't realise it was an americanisation. Or should it be "realize it was an americanization" ?


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## markturner (23 Feb 2012)

Well Jacob, that's a surprise! I thought you were of the persuasion that you don't need expensive tools, cheap basic ones do the job just as well... :wink: 

cheers, Mark


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2012)

markturner":3ehao3le said:


> Well Jacob, that's a surprise! I thought you were of the persuasion that you don't need expensive tools, cheap basic ones do the job just as well... :wink:
> 
> cheers, Mark


They'd be fine for me. A bit on the expensive side perhaps. I bought those axminster cheapoids some time back. :roll: Looked like a better deal than these.
I've got all sorts - mostly 2nd hand. Best are the Stanley 5001s though I have some nice old wood handled ones too.


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## bugbear (23 Feb 2012)

GazPal":23t5wl78 said:


> I think you'll find the majority - before the interweb and americunisation - commonly called the flat of a blade/iron it's face and the bevel was applied to it's back. This was primarily due to the fact the flat of a blade/iron faces the direction of work, whilst the bevelled back of the blade/iron faces away from the work. (In addition to this, knives don't have a face side unless sharpened from one side of the blade and creating a flat face on the other. The area behind a knife or sword's sharpening bevel is called the back or spine of the blade).



The last time this was discussed, I actually checked a large number written sources. The usage is as I described, although it is not 100% uniform, depending on period.

It wouldn't surprise me if the odd workshop and/or training colleges had a local convention - how would one know wether it was universal or local?

BugBear


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

stop it! you're all confusing me :lol: 

i don't know which is the back, front, face or side now :roll:


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## bugbear (23 Feb 2012)

scubadoo":ddfhknpd said:


> stop it! you're all confusing me :lol:
> 
> i don't know which is the back, front, face or side now :roll:



That (sadly) probably means you've understood correctly!

"flat side" and "bevel side" are a little long, but not prone to misunderstanding.

BugBear


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## Modernist (23 Feb 2012)

A thread beset with unexpected twists and turns - but at least the OP has identified the route to good quality, sharp chisels.


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2012)

bugbear":1t4io5ce said:


> scubadoo":1t4io5ce said:
> 
> 
> > stop it! you're all confusing me :lol:
> ...


Just remember "Face/Flat Back/Bevel" and you need never get it wrong again!


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## woodbloke (23 Feb 2012)

scubadoo":f1753a46 said:


> Ah well, change of plan - after looking at them for a while and comparing them to my Pfeil carving tools, I've decided to return them. At the end of the day, i just didn't like the look of them and the machining seemed a little rough and ready. They probably are the best tools in this price range but I think I'd rather pay a few pounds more per chisel and get something nicer. I'm keeping the 6mm as I'd used it on a test piece.
> 
> Workshopheaven have been good about it, and I've ordered an Ashley Iles 1" chisel to have a look at.


Now this I find odd. I don't doubt for a second that the machining was a little rough, in fact in one the pics the ground surface looks little better than a ploughed field. What's odd is that some time ago, Matt asked me to review the mortise chisels for F&C which I gladly did for him and the finish on the blades was superb...far better than the ones shown in your pics and I couldn't really fault the chisels in any way (at that price, which was under a tenner each) Clearly something untoward has happened with the manufacturing process so it would be interesting to see if future chisels from Narex display the same poor finish - Rob


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## knappers (23 Feb 2012)

I don't know my "back side" from my elbow!

Si.


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## Paul Chapman (23 Feb 2012)

I bought some Narex cabinetmakers chisels from Classic Hand Tools at Cressing Temple last year and the finish on them was superb.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## RogerP (23 Feb 2012)

Paul Chapman":54unmfk5 said:


> I bought some Narex cabinetmakers chisels from Classic Hand Tools at Cressing Temple last year and the finish on them was superb.
> Cheers :wink:
> Paul



My Narex chisels are also just fine - I was wondering if I was the only one.


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## woodbloke (23 Feb 2012)

Maybe the OP got a Friday afternoon set? :duno: - Rob


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## Dodge (23 Feb 2012)

Well my Narex are excellent, they have held their edge fantastically whilst working on the exceptionally hard burr oak I am using for my current project. 

No doubt a certain forum member will dispute this though


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

Like I said, I think the photos make it look worse than it is, I think it just highlights the machining patterns, are they ground back and forth? I wonder if the striped effect is just that?


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## GazPal (23 Feb 2012)

bugbear":zh3xrbws said:


> GazPal":zh3xrbws said:
> 
> 
> > I think you'll find the majority - before the interweb and americunisation - commonly called the flat of a blade/iron it's face and the bevel was applied to it's back. This was primarily due to the fact the flat of a blade/iron faces the direction of work, whilst the bevelled back of the blade/iron faces away from the work. (In addition to this, knives don't have a face side unless sharpened from one side of the blade and creating a flat face on the other. The area behind a knife or sword's sharpening bevel is called the back or spine of the blade).
> ...



One ventured farther than his own workshop or region during one's career as a cabinetmaker. This is how one would knew whether descriptions were localised, regional, or universal. 

One drawback with referencing books is that many authors source material from elsewhere (Read other books and rely upon discussion) and don't necessarily base their information upon first hand experience. This can create a cascade effect in so far as potential misinformation is concerned and especially so if several authors share a common root source of information/translation.


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## Alf (23 Feb 2012)

woodbloke":3cq5m3fp said:


> Maybe the OP got a Friday afternoon set? :duno: - Rob


Surely they don't manufacture them as "sets" though, do they? What I mean is, to get a Friday afternooner in each size in the set, wouldn't that suggest there had to be more than a few out there that are a little on the rough side? Dunno. Anyway, not familiar with the Narexes, and as the OP sez, the camera can lie, contrary to the old saying. 

Meanwhile if Gary and BB would like to take their exchange of sweet nothings to PMs, I for one, would not object. Just sayin'.


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

So two Pfeil Carpenters chisels arrived today, around £17 each.

First thing, i like the look and feel of them. I might be tempted to sand the handles a little finer and Tru-oil them but they're fine really. The steel/bevel really thickens as you get back towards the handle. 






















Where it meets the shaft, the round section sticks down below the flat of the underside, if you know what i mean, so you have just 97mm of flat before you would hit the shaft on the workpiece, i guess that's normal? but different from the english chisels i've seen.






My god they're sharp, they seem to have a secondary bevel on them and the underside is polished, more so at the tip.


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## Bigdanny (23 Feb 2012)

Hi Folks,
I've been trying to decide on chisels over the winter and I'm looking to buy a range of sizes. I think I am still happy to buy Narex, but this discussion yesterday led me to finding the full Narex catalogue on Gogle. This confirms that all the blades are essentially the same, just have different handles. The do a range with Polyprop handles which I have managed to find a local supplier for. So Im very happy.
My question is does anyone have experience of Narex with plastic handles. Are they tough enough for general use and occassional whack with hammer or mallet. 10 chisels from 6mm to 30mm for the equivalent of 36 quid.
I guess at that price its not worth worrying too much if they do break.


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## Modernist (23 Feb 2012)

scubadoo":oadrnql5 said:


> So two Pfeil Carpenters chisels arrived today, around £17 each.
> 
> First thing, i like the look and feel of them. I might be tempted to sand the handles a little finer and Tru-oil them but they're fine really. The steel/bevel really thickens as you get back towards the handle.



Very nice although they need honing on said waterstone to a proper edge. Your great grandchildren might not share you view of the thick edge but let them worry about that.

The Swiss think of everything, even an arrow to show which way to push :lol: :lol: 

I wonder if our Bulgarian friend has opened the Pandora's coffin on a certain marketing plan?


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

Modernist":3tleu4dz said:


> scubadoo":3tleu4dz said:
> 
> 
> > So two Pfeil Carpenters chisels arrived today, around £17 each.
> ...



I'm gonna wait to see the Ashley Iles that arrives tomorrow before deciding on keeping them. but for the price, i like them.

Better decide soon though, there's a 2 yr old girl waiting for a bed!


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## Cheshirechappie (23 Feb 2012)

Is there a difference in quality of finish between Narex bevel-edged chisels and Narex cabinetmaker's chisels?

Broader question - does anybody make B/E chisels with proper, fine bevels? Most modern ones seem to be more like firmers with the edges of the top face removed. (For the avoidance of doubt, I'm assuming the chisel is lying on the bench with it's edge in contact with the bench-top, so the top face is the face is the one you see as you look down at it.) The few 'old' B/E chisels in my possession have very little metal between the chisel's face (flat bit you're supposed to flatten and some people love to argue about the polishing of) and the bevel edge slopes. The only modern ones I have that come close to this are a couple of Sorby paring chisels, of which I'm rather fond. All the others seem to have about 1/16" to nearly 1/8" square to the face before the bevel slope starts - so they don't get right into the corners of dovetails.

I see that Ashley Isles have started making specialist 'dovetail chisels', but why should they need to? Why not just decent blade cross-section on B/E chisels?


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

I've seen some Pfeil dovetail ones that aren't bevelled in section but are elliptical.


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## Bigdanny (23 Feb 2012)

Modernist":2a7bidvc said:


> :lol: I wonder if our Bulgarian friend has opened the Pandora's coffin on a certain marketing plan?



Nooo , I did think it briefly but Im sure WH would spot this and order some themselves for sale. Postage from here to UK would kill the profit. Its surprising what a range of stuff Narex make though.
Still curious about the handles though.


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2012)

GazPal":2x9htbyf said:


> .......
> One drawback with referencing books is that many authors source material from elsewhere (Read other books and rely upon discussion) and don't necessarily base their information upon first hand experience. This can create a cascade effect in so far as potential misinformation is concerned and especially so if several authors share a common root source of information/translation.


Absolutely right. My favourite is the 1/6 or 1/8 incline for dovetails. If you look at old furniture good or bad you find that hardly anybody followed this rule, but it's stuck and just won't go away.


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

Has anyone else used these Pfeils? Any opinions?


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## Paul Chapman (23 Feb 2012)

Bigdanny":2awtiqi6 said:


> this discussion yesterday led me to finding the full Narex catalogue on Gogle. This confirms that all the blades are essentially the same



The blades are not all the same. The bevel sides of the cabinetmakers chisels are ground thinner than those of the bevel edge chisels, so they are more suitable for dovetailing.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## matthewwh (23 Feb 2012)

Had a look at the returned set today and the grinding is no better or worse than any of them are or have ever been. The 4th photo does make them look like like a ploughed field but I reckon the 2nd and 3rd ones are probably more representative. 

The Narex range are not about being the most deliciously wonderful chisels ever, they are about good steel, the right shape, comfortable and well balanced, consistently hardened and significantly cheaper than the AI's which is the next time all of these factors converge in a single range of chisels. Price plays a bigger role in some people's decision making process than others, but for a lot of folks getting very similar functionality indeed for less than half the price is attractive. 

I do take your point about the stain on the handles (which are hornbeam - not beech) and we will shortly be having some made with a clear finish (same price) which I think will be very popular. They have also offered to polish the blades but after the debacle with Kirschen a few years back I thought we'd stick with ground and leave polished blades to the Germans who apparently love them. If anyone needs anything else from the extensive Narex range just pop me an email and I'll be happy to order it for you with our next shipment.

The Pfiels are very good chisels indeed, apart from the wedge shaped sides which will gradually grow the sides throughout their life. The Narex cabinetmakers are around 1mm all the way up, which is about as fine as you can get by machine but well within range of being dressed with a small diamond file at 45 degrees if you did need them finer.

The sides on the AI's are finer still at about half a mm, this is achievable because they are hand ground, freehand, like this:







No jigs or fixtures, just like the olden days but without the silicosis.

The backs on the AI's are also very good indeed and when drawn along a very fine stone should just allow the underside of the cutting edge to be polished whilst still being flat enough out of the packet to pare exhibition grade joinery. They harden them to within a hairs breadth of the optimum for O1 (RC61) and as long as you can get them back to the factory, they will happily regrind, sharpen or repair them as necessary for the rest of your life.


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

matthewwh":2fc62ipz said:


> Had a look at the returned set today and the grinding is no better or worse than any of them are or have ever been. The 4th photo does make them look like like a ploughed field but I reckon the 2nd and 3rd ones are probably more representative.



I had a feeling you might :wink: 

That's exactly what I said in my earlier posts, the photos/lighting exaggerate it but i think the tools would be more appealing to the market if the back and face were finished finer. You can feel the grooves if you run your fingernail along the surface.



matthewwh":2fc62ipz said:


> I do take your point about the stain on the handles (which are hornbeam - not beech) and we will shortly be having some made with a clear finish (same price) which I think will be very popular.



That would be great to see. I actually like the logo and fonts used, makes them look a bit more modern and quite classy, it's just the terrible staining and cheap ferrule that ruined the look. 

And again as I said before , I'm not saying that they're bad chisels, just that they didn't appeal to me and I'd happily pay a little more. Can't wait to see the ashley Iles that you're sending me and I hope the fact that I returned them and made a larger order at the same time shows that I'm not just being a PITA :lol: . For the money, they are very good tools and there isn't anything to compete without spending a few more pounds per chisel.

This is the first time I've used WSH and I have absolutely no complaints about the service you offer =D>


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## Cheshirechappie (23 Feb 2012)

Thanks, Matthew. I think that answers my question!


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## scubadoo (23 Feb 2012)

matthewwh":1ocrzezc said:


> and as long as you can get them back to the factory, they will happily regrind, sharpen or repair them as necessary for the rest of your life.



That is pretty mind-blowing service in this day and age.


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## Jacob (24 Feb 2012)

scubadoo":auep11tj said:


> matthewwh":auep11tj said:
> 
> 
> > and as long as you can get them back to the factory, they will happily regrind, sharpen or repair them as necessary for the rest of your life.
> ...


Except if everybody did it they'd go bust or have to stop selling defective chisels or simply withdraw the offer. 
It's called PR. 
They also know that the cost of posting them both ways would make it cheaper to buy another chisel instead. 
Or do they include postage both ways, in which case I might consider buying a complete set or the first time in my life! 2 sets in fact so that I could always have one set being sharpened without holding up the job.
Don't be taken in again by another load of flannel!


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## Sawyer (24 Feb 2012)

ModernistThe Swiss think of everything said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: =D>


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## Sawyer (24 Feb 2012)

Jacob":v8cge9zv said:


> scubadoo":v8cge9zv said:
> 
> 
> > matthewwh":v8cge9zv said:
> ...


Not dissimilar to a range of cheap Far Eastern tools available over here which proclaim 'Guaranteed Forever' on the packaging. :!: 
One of these days, I'm almost tempted to take them up on the claim. 8)


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## Jacob (24 Feb 2012)

Sawyer":clnxrjts said:


> Modernist said:
> 
> 
> > The Swiss think of everything, even an arrow to show which way to push :lol: :lol:
> ...


[/quote]I thought it was to indicate the pointy end, elf n safety gorn mad again.


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## scubadoo (24 Feb 2012)

Jacob":311anjaz said:


> scubadoo":311anjaz said:
> 
> 
> > matthewwh":311anjaz said:
> ...



It costs about £7 to send a set of 6 or 7 chisels first class, about £9 if yo want it recorded. So I reckon that's a pretty good deal if anyone wants to do it. As long as they're ALL knackered at the same time that is!

I would exactly call that flannel, maybe someone's just being a bit grumpy this morning :wink:


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## Jacob (24 Feb 2012)

They are never going to need repairing, and anybody who can't regrind and hone a chisel isn't likely to be using them in the first place. It's flannel. Is it in writing BTW or is this just a one off bit of flannel which everybody will forget?


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## Cheshirechappie (24 Feb 2012)

Ashley Isles do make their 'regrind' offer in writing. It's on the homepage of their website, anyway.

Jacob - out of interest, do you think that the ideal cabinetmaker's bench chisel is different to the ideal joiner's chisel? It just occurs to me that joiners are not often called upon to cut dovetails; most joinery work is mortice and tenon, sinks in door-frames for hinges and other square-edge work. Would most joiners prefer the stronger firmer chisels (the rectangular cross-section ones you never seem to see these days)? Is there a difference between the ideal joiner's bench chisel and the ideal site-work chisel?


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## Racers (24 Feb 2012)

Hi, Jacob

But if they where like Triggar's broom, you could have a chisel for life :wink: 

Pete


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## Harbo (24 Feb 2012)

Here's AI's Guarantee:

"Our Guarantee
Any goods manufactured by us found faulty in material
or edge keeping quality will be replaced unconditionally.
Any tool returned to us, which we have made,
we will regrind free of charge."

So what's wrong with that - there's no pleasing some people?


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## Modernist (24 Feb 2012)

Cheshirechappie":24kx5j45 said:


> Ashley Isles do make their 'regrind' offer in writing. It's on the homepage of their website, anyway.
> 
> Jacob - out of interest, do you think that the ideal cabinetmaker's bench chisel is different to the ideal joiner's chisel? It just occurs to me that joiners are not often called upon to cut dovetails; most joinery work is mortice and tenon, sinks in door-frames for hinges and other square-edge work. Would most joiners prefer the stronger firmer chisels (the rectangular cross-section ones you never seem to see these days)? Is there a difference between the ideal joiner's bench chisel and the ideal site-work chisel?



There is definitely a difference but mainly in the narrower widths. All AI blades are fine and thin for their width which is ideal for cabinet making but on say 10mm down they are a bit delicate for a severe bashing. On the wider widths I don't think it makes any difference.


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## Noel (24 Feb 2012)

Harbo":26ob9nw8 said:


> Here's AI's Guarantee:
> 
> "Our Guarantee
> Any goods manufactured by us found faulty in material
> ...



Depends on what standards are applied to "faulty in material" and "edge keeping quality"? There's hardly a BS or TUV or whatever standard for such things? It's mostly personal opinion and experience, no?
As for returning for a free regrind, who would be bothered?


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## Jacob (24 Feb 2012)

Cheshirechappie":38zj0r2h said:


> Ashley Isles do make their 'regrind' offer in writing. It's on the homepage of their website, anyway.
> 
> Jacob - out of interest, do you think that the ideal cabinetmaker's bench chisel is different to the ideal joiner's chisel? It just occurs to me that joiners are not often called upon to cut dovetails; most joinery work is mortice and tenon, sinks in door-frames for hinges and other square-edge work. Would most joiners prefer the stronger firmer chisels (the rectangular cross-section ones you never seem to see these days)? Is there a difference between the ideal joiner's bench chisel and the ideal site-work chisel?


Horses for courses obviously. You wouldn't expect to use little bevel edge 1/4" chisels on a building site, but you never know.


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## Max Power (24 Feb 2012)

As Noel says very few people would be inclined to send a chisel back for grinding. I did however send some specialist turning chisels back to Sorby that I bought off ebay and the previous owner had damaged the shaped ends of.
They did them foc and didnt even charge me for the return postage, thats what I call service =D>


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## Alf (24 Feb 2012)

Noel":3t0oey3h said:


> As for returning for a free regrind, who would be bothered?


Well for some of the carving chisels, for a start, that'd be an offer worth having. Some of them are pretty diabolical to grind, and if you'd made a mess of it - or, woe betide, the edge was badly chipped - it might well be worth getting back to "factory settings". Dunno if AI do corner chisels, but there's a type that is absolutely no fun to grind too. It's a mistake to judge the value of the offer just because one's own experience might only encompass half a dozen basic bench chisels.

All told, AI don't _have_ to make the offer, but they do. Good PR? Yeah. But why not? At least they're making an effort and not just throwing a piece of cheese with the corners knocked off at the market and calling it a "bevel edged chisel", like so many manufacturers of formerly good reputation.


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## matthewwh (24 Feb 2012)

Funnily enough there is a chippie who lives in the same village as the AI factory, he has two sets of their chisels that he keeps in buckets and has never sharpened any of them. If his chisels are blunt he just pops in and exchanges buckets on his way to work!

Admittedly it's rare to find someone who has problems with bevel edged chisels but I can see how it would be convenient for woodworking teachers to be able to pop all the chisels in the post at the beginning of the holdiays. For tools like incannel gouges, v-tools, corner chisels etc it's reassuring to be able to have a go at grinding them knowing that if you do make a pigs ear of it it's not the end of the world.

Brian,
The registered firmer chisels are more substantial if you need something you can give a bit of welly to.


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## Jacob (24 Feb 2012)

woodbloke":2r9tmnua said:


> ..........
> Now this I find odd. I don't doubt for a second that the machining was a little rough, in fact in one the pics the ground surface looks little better than a ploughed field. What's odd is that some time ago, Matt asked me to review the mortise chisels for F&C which I gladly did for him and the finish on the blades was superb...far better than the ones shown in your pics and I couldn't really fault the chisels in any way (at that price, which was under a tenner each) Clearly something untoward has happened with the manufacturing process so it would be interesting to see if future chisels from Narex display the same poor finish - Rob


I think you should take this fairly seriously Rob (even though it's just about some cheapo chisels :roll: ). 
If the chisels you were given were not typical then you have been tricked into giving them a good review and have effectively helped to pull a fast one those who bought them on the strength of it. 
You should protest strongly, as your reputation as a reviewer, and that of the magazine, become discredited by cheap tricks like this.
Shouldn't be tolerated.


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## scubadoo (24 Feb 2012)

Jacob":3iu267ew said:


> woodbloke":3iu267ew said:
> 
> 
> > ..........
> ...



I think you're getting a bit carried away there Jacob, as I keep saying, the camera was a DSLR with a Sigma 50mm DG Macro lens. At that level of magnification it's going to show up machining lines on anything that hasn't been polished wether you can actually feel them or not (as you will see on the photos of the Ashley Iles in my next post).


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## scubadoo (24 Feb 2012)

So, for my third brand, I've just received a 1" Ashley Iles Mk2 Bevel edged cabinetmakers chisel from Matthew at WSH today, great service as usual.

This thing is beautiful. It looks and feels gorgeous and is very nicely made. The bubinga handle is lovely to the touch and is beautifully finished.

Nice and sharp as well.

















Whilst I like the Pfeil chisels, this is definitely nicer and doesn't suffer from the wedge shaved bevel ( the bevel on the AI goes down to 1mm from the underside) and the workable length you get before hitting the shaft is greater (105mm).

All in all, out of the chisels I've tried - Bristol Designs, Narex, Pfeil and AI - I would absolutely choose the AI. Obviously they're roughly twice the price of the Narex, but I'd say that they're more than twice as nice and will be ordering a couple more sizes from Matthew. Just need to decide wether to keep the Pfeils or swap them for the AI's. I would put the Bristols at the bottom as the steels really were quite rough even though the design looks nice and traditional. If the Narex were finished nicer and the handles were nicer I'd probably have stuck with them.

Clearly, these comments are based on the appearance, design and manufacturing quality of the tools as at the moment I can't comment on their cutting performance or edge holding capabilities but I hope it's useful to see and compare a few different chisels.


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## Doug B (24 Feb 2012)

scubadoo":2po8xqbt said:


> Jacob":2po8xqbt said:
> 
> 
> > woodbloke":2po8xqbt said:
> ...



Whilst not wanting to put it in such strong terms, I do agree with Jacob on this.

I had read Robs review amongst others before seeing these chisels & was left wondering if i was looking at the same chisels.

Something else that occurs to me is, if so little attention is payed to the quality control of the finished chisels as shown by these wildly differing reports, it leads me to wonder what control is applied to the manufacture of the steel these chisels are being made of.

Will we in the future have threads such as we have had on other makes of chisels where one owner compares them to cheese & another claims they hold a good edge.


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## Harbo (24 Feb 2012)

I've got a couple of Bristol Designs ones from their carving range.
Their chisels were supposed to be hand forged by a local blacksmith/craftsman?
When I bought mine a few years ago, they said the man had retired and they only had some remaining stocks?

Rod


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## jimi43 (24 Feb 2012)

Matthew sent me a mortice chisel to review (reminds me...must send that back to you Matthew!) when they first came out and it was really nice though I don't particularly like the handle either.






The finish is "silk" on all but the bevel...and the bevel is as finely ground as any I have seen...it cuts well too...






The side grinding is a bit rounded as you can see but for the price...this is one nice chisel indeed.

I don't use it simply because I need to send it back to WH and also because my 100 year old plus boxwood handled Sorby is...and always will be my tool of choice...






.....and pretty good value for a quid too!



Roll on the bootfairs! :wink: (mind you...as others have pointed out..I may need to wait a few weeks to collect a "set"!) :mrgreen: 

Jimi


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## scubadoo (24 Feb 2012)

Harbo":35x98ln4 said:


> I've got a couple of Bristol Designs ones from their carving range.
> Their chisels were supposed to be hand forged by a local blacksmith/craftsman?
> When I bought mine a few years ago, they said the man had retired and they only had some remaining stocks?
> 
> Rod



From their website:

"This effort was done in conjunction with a forge interested in keeping alive traditional techniques of quality production and ran as a sideline along with more modern techniques. Unfortunately the accountants have gained an upper hand at the forge and our production runs have been stopped. We still have stocks of most of the tools but they will gradually run out."


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## Doug B (24 Feb 2012)

scubadoo":9si68mo1 said:


> I would absolutely choose the AI.



I`ve been very happy with mine & I`ve found them a really helpful company, even being happy to make me a one off turning chisel.

I bought a set butt chisels from them whilst on an arranged visit to their factory which is well worth doing if you are in the vicinity, otherwise they stand at a lot of the wood shows & are always happy to give good advice.


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## matthewwh (24 Feb 2012)

I'm glad to hear that you are pleased with the AI's, they are a very popular line. 

Don't worry about Jacob - he won't be satisfied until you have dug one up out of a ditch with your bare hands and rounded the end over on an oily kerb stone.

The chisels sent to Rob were simply added to the list of orders for the day, so the person who selected them had no inkling that the order was any different to the others, they were just the next ones to come out of the box. 

Out of interest Jacob, what warranty do you offer on the windows that you make?


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## scubadoo (24 Feb 2012)

matthewwh":fwx7drwj said:


> I'm glad to hear that you are pleased with the AI's, they are a very popular line.



I'm not suprised, they're lovely. Is there much difference between these and the dovetail ones? Is it just the elliptical section? they also look lovely.

Oh, and not that Workshopheaven needs anymore plaudits but I just have to say what great service. I ordered a waterstone that turned up cracked in half, not sure how as it was well packed :? 

Anyway, Matthew posted a replacement to me the same day and told me to keep the broken one as a spare to chuck in my toolbox. How good is that! Thanks Matthew =D>


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## GazPal (25 Feb 2012)

Cheshirechappie":3d08f7ah said:


> Ashley Isles do make their 'regrind' offer in writing. It's on the homepage of their website, anyway.
> 
> Jacob - out of interest, *do you think that the ideal cabinetmaker's bench chisel is different to the ideal joiner's chisel*? It just occurs to me that joiners are not often called upon to cut dovetails; most joinery work is mortice and tenon, sinks in door-frames for hinges and other square-edge work. Would most joiners prefer the stronger firmer chisels (the rectangular cross-section ones you never seem to see these days)? Is there a difference between the ideal joiner's bench chisel and the ideal site-work chisel?




The same can be said of most tools in use, but tool kit depends on the work undertaken or necessary to complete a given project. Investing a working set of bevel edge and firmer chisels (Adding whichever sizes you need) was a route recommended to me during my apprenticeship and I've not regretted making that particular initial investment over the past few decades.

_Very general guidelines:_

Firmers = carpentry/framing.

Bevel edged = joinery and cabinetry.

The main thing is being able to produce an end product via the most streamlined route possible and this is where having the right tool for the job seriously comes into play, but only if the expense can be justified.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Feb 2012)

Jimi, I think that pattern is london pattern, (someone feel free to correct me) but is the mark "i" or "r" Sorby?
Some years ago I had a 2" bevel edge I.Sorby -it was beautiful!...................some "friend" relieved me of it (probably to take home to dig holes for hi
s pansys or marigolds).
Has anyone knowledge of I.Sorby- I've not had much luck tracing them (everything directs me back to R.Sorby


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## Noel (25 Feb 2012)

Alf":2vecg6rt said:


> Noel":2vecg6rt said:
> 
> 
> > As for returning for a free regrind, who would be bothered?
> ...




It may be worth it for speciality/non-regular stuff but as we're discussing common-or-garden chisels I'd imagine most wouldn't bother and as mentioned I'm sure most owners know how to cope with a chipped or badly ground edge. And I'd also imagine the company in question are aware of this too.


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## studders (25 Feb 2012)

Jacob":2avsb4gr said:


> If the chisels you were given were not typical then you have been tricked into giving them a good review and have effectively helped to pull a fast one those who bought them on the strength of it.



I very much doubt that this would be the case. What would be the point? In a very short space of time a hard earned good reputation would be ruined.


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## jimi43 (25 Feb 2012)

phil.p":l4yfs86w said:


> Jimi, I think that pattern is london pattern, (someone feel free to correct me) but is the mark "i" or "r" Sorby?
> Some years ago I had a 2" bevel edge I.Sorby -it was beautiful!...................some "friend" relieved me of it (probably to take home to dig holes for hi
> s pansys or marigolds).
> Has anyone knowledge of I.Sorby- I've not had much luck tracing them (everything directs me back to R.Sorby



With excuses for the minor hijack...yes it is and it is I&H Sorby "Hanging Sheep" mark and an absolute gem. There is a great page on the interwoven family history of the various "Sorbys" on the ROBERT SORBY HISTORY PAGE....

Cheers

Jim


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## woodbloke (25 Feb 2012)

jimi43":3gq3ei2l said:


> Matthew sent me a mortice chisel to review (reminds me...must send that back to you Matthew!) when they first came out and it was really nice though I don't particularly like the handle either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



...and that was exactly what I found as well with the mortise chisels and for less than a tenner each...difficult to better - Rob


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## bugbear (27 Feb 2012)

bugbear":3njd7abm said:


> scubadoo":3njd7abm said:
> 
> 
> > stop it! you're all confusing me :lol:
> ...



I have spent a rather enjoyable part of Sunday afternoon perusing my books. I can now report a conclusion of the correct use of "back" "front" and "face" w.r.t. plane blades and chisels.

*No one has a clue.*

Gary's notion that the authors slavishly copy each other is not borne out - each and every one of them seems to make up whatever seems convenient! I have seen "back", "face", and "back face" all used for the flat side of the blade.

I have also repeatedly seen "back" used for the bevel side of the blade.

"front" is used so rarely, I can't form an aggregate view.

About the only point of agreement is that "front" and "back" are opposite sides.

I would therefore reiterate my recommendation of "bevel side" and "flat side" as a means to avoid the morass, and withdraw any assertions previously made about the traditional use of "back", "front" and "face".

BugBear


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## Jacob (27 Feb 2012)

Well that's very interesting BB. :roll: 
I think I'll stick to the sensible convention of back/bevel, face/flat. I wasn't going to change anyway, whatever you found out!


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## RogerP (27 Feb 2012)

I think just flat-side and bevel-side is the clearest and avoids all confusion with different interpretations of front and back.


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## ali27 (27 Feb 2012)

I have the narex chisel set. Bought it a while ago. Haven't
used them yet, but yesterday I flattened the backs of these chisels.
Wasn't difficult as the back was a bit hollow. All chisel backs were 
flattened quite quickly except one which was convex around the edge.
The edge was more than a thou higher. So I stopped flattening the back
of that one when it was less than a thou. I was going to grind away a mm
or so of the edge anway. 

So overall quite positive in terms of flattening the back
of these chisels.

Ali


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## Jacob (27 Feb 2012)

ali27":jw3sz505 said:


> I have the narex chisel set. Bought it a while ago. Haven't
> used them yet, but yesterday I flattened the backs of these chisels....
> Ali


Why?


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## GazPal (27 Feb 2012)

bugbear":1zon06q5 said:


> *Gary's notion that the authors slavishly copy each other is not borne out - each and every one of them seems to make up whatever seems convenient! I have seen "back", "face", and "back face" all used for the flat side of the blade.*
> 
> BugBear


 
:roll: I prefer woodworking and tend not to obsess over such matters. :lol:


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## ali27 (27 Feb 2012)

Jacob":279wtamh said:


> ali27":279wtamh said:
> 
> 
> > I have the narex chisel set. Bought it a while ago. Haven't
> ...



The back of chisels should be flat. Seems to be common knowledge.

So my question to you is ''why not''? Are you doing the jacob air trick
to get a tiny backbevel on chisels?


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## Jacob (27 Feb 2012)

ali27":s7bym7xn said:


> Jacob":s7bym7xn said:
> 
> 
> > ali27":s7bym7xn said:
> ...


Common delusion more like. 
If they are new and _really_ need flattening you should send them back . Or bin them if old. Personally I've never flattened one in my life. 
If you aren't happy with inaccuracies involving single thousands of an inch I suggest you throw away you feeler gauges! They aren't doing you any good. :lol: 
How's the woodwork coming along?

PS surely these Narex's are perfect (within reason)? I'm really surprised that another new set requires remedial work before they've even been used.


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## James C (27 Feb 2012)

Jacob it's not about flattening the back but polishing it IMO. When I recieved my Narex chisels this is one of the first things I did before honing a microbevel.

Do you ever sharpen both sides of a carving knife? Isn't it the same, or am I mistaken?


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## Jacob (27 Feb 2012)

James C":1p21xliq said:


> Jacob it's not about flattening the back but polishing it IMO. When I recieved my Narex chisels this is one of the first things I did before honing a microbevel.
> 
> Do you ever sharpen both sides of a carving knife? Isn't it the same, or am I mistaken?


 Most knives are sharpened equally both sides. They are symmetrical in section, perp to the edge. 
Planes and chisels are not. They are sharpened on the bevel almost entirely, until the edge is back into the unworn portion of the face/flat side. The face is only briefly honed, dead flat on the stone , to remove the wire edge. It's not a face flattening exercise, it's a wire edge removal job, though the face is flattened a touch in the process, for the last inch or so. 
I thought everybody knew this?

PS if you are polishing the face are you also polishing the bevel? If not why not? I know carvers polish both sides, but only near the edge. They need very sharp clean cuts (when they come to finishing at any rate) as the chisel/gouge cut surface may be visible. Rarely the case in joinery and cabinet making.


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## James C (27 Feb 2012)

I wasn't talking about flattening Jacob in fact I stipulated that in my post. I've only flattened when I have been bringing some of my grandfathers bevel edged chisels back to life from some pitting.

I do polish both the bevel and the face, I find it slightly improves chisel performance.

I do admit thought that I probably only polish the face every 4th or 5th time I reattend to the microbevel.


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## Benchwayze (28 Feb 2012)

Jacob":zno156db said:


> In my experience it's only on this forum that people call the face the back. Mind you I've had a quiet life.
> I didn't realise it was an americanisation. Or should it be "realize it was an americanization" ?



As long as you don't say 'incentivise' when you mean encourage! Heard that word quite a lot recently, via the BBC, but even my 'murrican spell check doesn't recognise it either with a z or an s. 8)

Anyway. the Narex bevel edged chisels I bought are okay. The striking surface on the handles could be better, but as I don't clout the life out of a bevel edged chisel, no problem. They aren't the world's best, but for the money, they are good to go.

As for polishing the flat side, why bother if there's only a slight difference in performance? Sounds like a lot of time expended for little purpose. I make sure it's flat, and that there is enough reflection to use for estimating angles, such as when chopping inlay. (For which a chisel needs to be 'sharp' of course!)


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## Noel (28 Feb 2012)

Benchwayze":3ma2q0ua said:


> Jacob":3ma2q0ua said:
> 
> 
> > In my experience it's only on this forum that people call the face the back. Mind you I've had a quiet life.
> ...



Such heresy, you'll get burned at the stake 

Flat-ish and sharp, end of story.


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## James C (28 Feb 2012)

Benchwayze":bz72rpjv said:


> As long as you don't say 'incentivise' when you mean encourage! Heard that word quite a lot recently, via the BBC, but even my 'murrican spell check doesn't recognise it either with a z or an s. 8)
> 
> Anyway. the Narex bevel edged chisels I bought are okay. The striking surface on the handles could be better, but as I don't clout the life out of a bevel edged chisel, no problem. They aren't the world's best, but for the money, they are good to go.
> 
> As for polishing the flat side, why bother if there's only a slight difference in performance? Sounds like a lot of time expended for little purpose. I make sure it's flat, and that there is enough reflection to use for estimating angles, such as when chopping inlay. (For which a chisel needs to be 'sharp' of course!)



Expended time ends up being a couple of passes so not much time at all.


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## Benchwayze (28 Feb 2012)

Noel":2suglmeq said:


> Benchwayze":2suglmeq said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":2suglmeq said:
> ...



I am fireproof Noel. 'cos there ain't no laws being broken in my shop! Just my way of doing things. (I think I am becoming hide-bound! :mrgreen: ) :lol:


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## Jacob (29 Feb 2012)

James C":30a0117b said:


> ....
> 
> Expended time ends up being a couple of passes so not much time at all.


It's getting less and less! You don't work through 25 grades of grit finishing off with jewellers rouge and a dash of lipstick? Rules are rules you know.


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## Benchwayze (29 Feb 2012)

25 grades of grit, emery flour followed by jewellers' rouge on pitch, (minus the lipstick) is for making Telescope mirrors, not sharpening tools. 
Oh Darn it. I mentioned emery flour. Someone is bound to want to try it! 

James, 

I think you will expend a lot of time (Time you could spend cutting wood), to get to the point, where you don't expend much time. 

I may disagree with what you say but I will defend... and all that. Going to have to beg to differ on this one old chap.


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## James C (29 Feb 2012)

That's fine everyone is entitled the their own opinion. 

I made a lot of my decisions about the way I sharpened originally based on what other people had said was "the correct way" and I didn't get on with it and it ended up costing me money in unused equipment and jigs etc.

I'm just happy I found a way that works for me so I can move on to actually making something.


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## pswallace (29 Feb 2012)

I got myself A set of Narex bench chisels about A year ago and after A bit of sharpening and honing they were great,although the mill marks weren't anywhere as near as pronounced as those in your pictures....but I can't fault their performance which is what counts at the end of the day...might be a consistency problem.The cabinet-maker style ones weren't available when I bought mine.....maybe the first ones that came over where better finished???


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## Gerard Scanlan (5 Apr 2012)

I received half a dozen chisels from Workshop Heaven today. 4 more Ashley Ilses dovetail chisels and 2 Narex bevel edge. I really like the dovetail chisels which is why I added to the couple I already had, but I wanted some bevel edge chisels that I could really hit with a hammer when chopping out mortices. Shouldn't I be using a mortice chisel #-o , well that's another story that Paul Sellers explains better than I can. Anyway I was astonished by the quality of the Narex chisels. I polished up the backs in 2 minutes! They were completely flat. Are they as nice as the Ashley Ilses? No they are not, but they are less than half the price and cut perfectly, hold their edge. They are better value for money than I had expected, so much so that I ordered 3 more (in different sizes).
I think I have developed a bit of a chisel thing (hammer)


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## matthewwh (9 Apr 2012)

We've had quite a few requests for natural handles on the 8116 range, what do you think?


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## Harbo (9 Apr 2012)

From the photo, they look a lot nicer to me.

Rod


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## shim20 (9 Apr 2012)

they look better natural i think, they should do this on the mortise chisels to maybe?


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## jimi43 (9 Apr 2012)

Hi Matthew

I think that they are a vast improvement on the former...which was below par ( :roll: ) by anyone's standard.

The steel is wonderful and now that they have hornbeam handles and brass ferrules the whole thing comes together.

Not one of my most favourite of shapes I have to say but that is a taste thing.

Nice to see them lightly waxed though instead of poly-yucky-stick-ethane finish!

One thing that just entered my head was perhaps producing a small run of just steel sans handles. Some of us enjoy making our own ya know!

(this is a pie-in-the-sky idea...ignore me....I doubt it it would catch on!) :mrgreen: 

Jim


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## Doug B (9 Apr 2012)

jimi43":18idurex said:


> One thing that just entered my head was perhaps producing a small run of just steel sans handles. Some of us enjoy making our own ya know!
> 
> (this is a pie-in-the-sky idea...ignore me....I doubt it it would catch on!)



I think that`s a great idea Jim, I can`t remember the last time i bought a handled turning chisel.

Making a bespoke handle that suites my grip makes it far more comfortable than using a shop bought generic one, particularly if using the tool for a long period.


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## matthewwh (9 Apr 2012)

We had the AI's without handles for a while but there didn't seem to be much interest so we went back to just doing them handled. Anything's possible though, just drop me a line.


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## James C (9 Apr 2012)

I really like the look of them, they look much better than the previous version. It will make it difficult if I buy anymore to expand the sizes I have what's more important that the new ones match or that they look nicer?


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