# Should you speak the truth?



## Amateur (11 Apr 2021)

Morning all

The pandemic was in full swing last year.
My mate of some 40 years tells me he's off to check his property in Spain, despite the strict rules on flying for non essential business.
He's already hired someone to keep checks on the property while he's in the UK.
Three weeks later he arrived home.
I told him that I didn't want to discuss his trip with him and to move on.
Mail kept arriving.
I'm fine, don't think I caught anything..blah, blah
Then eventually a message asking
what's up?
Tell me?
Despite trying to evade a conflict I ignored the repeated question.
In the end I relented, but I asked him if he was sure he wanted to listen to my view?
The basis of what my thoughts were are founded round his comment, "I didn't catch anything" while his inability to consider he may have become a carrier and infected dozens of people causing potential deaths was a very selfish act, after what transpired to be a three weeks holiday.
I thought that was the end of it.
We are no longer in contact, which is a shame.

Should I have kept my gob shut?

So what have you said that maybe you shouldn't have done?


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## Lons (11 Apr 2021)

Your personal choice but I'd have told him right at the start he was being an ars*h*le for exactly the reasons you state apart from the fact he was breaking the rules. If he's taken the hump when he asked for the truth then that's his problem even though it is a shame after all that time, maybe he'll see sense eventually if he's honest with himself..
I'd expect my mates to speak their minds just as I do with them.

EDIT
"So what have you said that maybe you shouldn't have done?"

*"I DO".........* 49 years ago ( If my missus reads this, I'm joking, honestly!.)


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## G S Haydon (11 Apr 2021)

Talking about issues you have with the behaviours of another person is very difficult, especially to their face.

In a situation where you are friends, it would be reasonable to discuss how you feel. Ideally before he went. If he followed protocol for his trip he hasn't done anything wrong.

However, like you, I don't see the need for international travel at the moment. If you were both unable to have different views without your friendship suffering big issues it was far less robust than you imagined. Don't let this bother you, life is to short.


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## Just4Fun (11 Apr 2021)

I have been facing a similar situation. I compete in a sport and a friend I often compete with asked me to partner him in a competition later this month. That bit is OK but the competition is in Spain. I declined due to the whole COVID situation. I would like to have gone - who wouldn't be interested in a free trip to Spain to compete at their favourite sport - but I thought it was the right thing to do. My friend saw things differently and over a few weeks tried to persuade me to join him. Eventually, this week, he accepted that I wouldn't change my mind and he has found a substitute.

This has not changed our friendship. I accept that he is going despite my misgivings so I have been helping him with the paperwork and logistics for the trip - there is no need for me to create an issue out of that. He accepts that I won't go on this occasion but I am sure he will ask me to compete in future events when things have settled down a bit. As friends of nearly 30 years we have worked it out without ill-feeling.


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## Spectric (11 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Should I have kept my gob shut?



You are completely in the right and he needed telling, but you should have talked him out of the trip or if all else fails report him to the relevant authority. It is people like him and their attitude that has helped fuel the pandemic because it only takes one person like him to re ignite the spread.


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## D_W (11 Apr 2021)

His choice was worse to you than the friendship was good. It only ends one way unless that flips around in your mind. You don't need to question your priorities, and he doesn't need to question his. Sometimes that's just the way things end.


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## doctor Bob (11 Apr 2021)

For my own peace of mind I try to keep your nose out of other peoples affairs.


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## Garno (11 Apr 2021)

It's a very difficult choice to have to make.
Principles V's Friendship a combination that never has winners.
Personally I believe you did the right thing and if the friendship was a strong one it will blossom once again.
We all have different ways that we would get the friendship back on track and at the end of the day one of you will HAVE to make that first move.
You have said what you think needed to be said to him and as such never need broach the subject with him again.
That's my thoughts and I hope it all turns out well for you and the friendship gets rekindled.


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## RobinBHM (11 Apr 2021)

I went to Spain for 3 weeks, had a great time and wanted to tell my mate....but he has the strop. 
Oh well Im off to a big party tonight


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## Blackswanwood (11 Apr 2021)

I think you did the right thing and your friend sounds like a selfish knob.


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## Amateur (11 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Oh well Im off to a big party tonight



at 55 you'll be in bed by seven O' clock like the rest of us


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## thetyreman (11 Apr 2021)

my brother refuses to have the vaccine, it's caused a major rift between us but I think he's an i-diot for not taking it, you should always speak your mind even if it means falling out, I have told him that I'm not going to be in a room with him unless he gets the vaccine and I'm not joking either, what annoys me is that some people think they're somehow immune from getting it and it's that kind of attitude that will continue to wreck the economy and destroy and erode our rights and freedoms for longer, they don't understand that THEY are the reason we're in this mess, it's not the government, it's them and their actions.


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## Daniel2 (11 Apr 2021)

First it was Brexit, now it's Covid and vaccines.
How we are getting so steamed up and allowing these issues to cause such division, even
within families.
It's very sad and very worrying.


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## thetyreman (11 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> First it was Brexit, now it's Covid and vaccines.
> How we are getting so steamed up and allowing these issues to cause such division, even
> within families.
> It's very sad and very worrying.



what's more worrying is how he could be a superspreader and completely ignorant to what he's doing, it could easily kill my parents, and I'd never forgive him for that.


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## Doug71 (11 Apr 2021)

I am amazed at some peoples attitude towards the whole Covid thing, it was commented the other day how tidy a friends hair was looking compared to other peoples, when asked if his wife had been trimming it his reply was "No, the hairdresser we use has been popping round, she is looking after her good customers."


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## Phill05 (11 Apr 2021)

There is noting wrong in standing up and telling the truth exactly it how it is, if he chose to fall out with you over what HE did he is a very shallow person maybe in the future he might realise his actions were wrong and ask you to be friends again, until that day don't worry and get on with life as it is. You never know he might be reading this post.


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## Daniel2 (11 Apr 2021)

thetyreman said:


> what's more worrying is how he could be a superspreader and completely ignorant to what he's doing, it could easily kill my parents, and I'd never forgive him for that.



I am only trying to suggest that we (the great unwashed), try to maintain some sense of proportion and perspective on these (reasonably important), issues.
The issues themselves are, indeed, serious, but surely not to the extent of creating division between friends and family.
MSM have turned us into a band of drama queens  
Before you all jump on me, I will say that my wife is a district nurse and is very closely involved with the saga, albeit in France; not the UK.


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## Spectric (11 Apr 2021)

Doug71 said:


> "No, the hairdresser we use has been popping round, she is looking after her good customers."


No one alive knows what the grim reaper looks like and what guises they may use to snare their next victim!!


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## D_W (11 Apr 2021)

thetyreman said:


> what's more worrying is how he could be a superspreader and completely ignorant to what he's doing, it could easily kill my parents, and I'd never forgive him for that.



Are your parents vaccinated? If they are, this is unlikely enough that I'd never catastrophize such a scenario. There are things at our own doorsteps that are more pressing. If the parents aren't vaccinated, that would be one.


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## Retired (11 Apr 2021)

Hi,

I doubt we'll ever be clear of Covid;

Hairdresser fined £17K stopped by police as she planned to reopen again

Why didn't the police also fine the customers?

My wife and I both retired take Covid very seriously indeed; I only visit the supermarkets for necessary shopping; my wife hasn't been inside a store for a year. Shame on all who are ignoring Covid rules.

Kind regards, Colin.


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## DBT85 (11 Apr 2021)

A good friend is one that can take you calling them a dick if they are being a dick.

On the subject of vaccines I am all for letting people choose whether to get a vaccine, just as I am all for people choosing whether to do business with or see people who haven't for non medical reasons.

It'll be moot anyway, as soon as the likes of Spain or France say you can't come here without a vaccine the amount of holdouts that are worried about Bill Gates controlling them with 5g signals will dissipate becase they'll want to go on holiday.


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## D_W (11 Apr 2021)

If one is vaccinated at this point, the risks are fairly low. The third world will continue to culture covid, not us.

WA state here in the us has one death per month in the vulnerable vaccine group of 1.2 million. Only 5 hospitalizations per month. I can't imagine how many deaths and hospitalizations have occurred for other reasons. 

If the vaccine take rate is reasonably high, it's time to stop dwelling on other people. I'm vaccinated. If someone else doesn't want to be, I don't care. You're getting too wound up about sensationalism brought by news and real life is passing you by, and you may be alienating people for no good reason.


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## pils (11 Apr 2021)

SPI-M-O: Summary of further modelling of easing restrictions – Roadmap Step 2, 31 March 2021


Statement from the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Modelling, Operational sub-group (SPI-M-O).




www.gov.uk




*Para's 32 & 56*
This has been thoroughly fact checked.


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## artie (11 Apr 2021)

The original question I think was about telling the truth.

In my experience the more truth you tell the less (so called) friends you will have.

As for travel, vaccinations, etc. it's not my business to try to control what others do or don't do unless they pose a clear and present danger.


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## D_W (11 Apr 2021)

artie said:


> In my experience the more truth you tell the less (so called) friends you will have.



That's true, but not everyone wants a huge group of friends. There are some of us scatterbrained who generally prefer to stick to a small group of friends worth talking to or being around. If any of those friends of mine didn't get vaccinated, I wouldn't bother them about it. If they said something false, I'd point them to data, but that would be about the end of it. 

I now know a whole lot of people who have been vaccinated. I don't know a single person who has been vaccinated and gotten sick except one person who got a shot on a friday and went to work on a monday and got covid from a coworker (that was his first shot). That's not really advisable behavior. Some of my friends think the election was stolen in the US and others think their kids have low odds of not being involved in a school shooting - i think both groups are bonkers (both don't understand odds very well and could be spending their time doing something gainful).


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## mikej460 (11 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> No one alive knows what the grim reaper looks like and what guises they may use to snare their next victim!!


No but I think it's reasonable to assume said reaper will have a nice haircut...


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## TominDales (11 Apr 2021)

thetyreman said:


> my brother refuses to have the vaccine, it's caused a major rift between us but I think he's an i-diot for not taking it, you should always speak your mind even if it means falling out, I have told him that I'm not going to be in a room with him unless he gets the vaccine and I'm not joking either, what annoys me is that some people think they're somehow immune from getting it and it's that kind of attitude that will continue to wreck the economy and destroy and erode our rights and freedoms for longer, they don't understand that THEY are the reason we're in this mess, it's not the government, it's them and their actions.


Families can be supper annoying and idiotic. However taking vaccines is an emotionally, psychologically challenging issue. I'm very much in favour of vaccination, it is one of the safer medical procedures, similar risks to taking paracetamol or aspirin. However it is quite personal to have a foreign agent injected into your body and some quite normal people can be vaccine hesitant. In the case of COVID they run the risk of a getting a very nasty disease, so its quite a personal choice.
We will need herd immunity at some stage and that will depend on 70 to 85% of the population being vaccinated - depending on the effectiveness of the vaccines. However that leaves room for 20 to 30% to abstain. The risk they face is catching the disease, which when incidence is low may be fine, but, they are vulnerable should there be another outbreak. The other pressure your brother will face, is requirements for certain activities such as going on an airline, taking a holiday, going to concerts etc, he may have to purchase expensive PCR tests or have regular lateral flow tests. There will be pressures on those hesitant to take the vaccine. I suspect your brother will have a fair amount of soul searching to do. 
I would say vaccine hesitancy is in a different category to disobeying the social distance rules. 
As for my brother, he made the excuse to see his in-laws in New Zealand (also where his daughters are studying) and has spent the last 3 months in the sunshine. He did have to spend 2 weeks locked in a hotel with his wife and their youngest child at their expense.....


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## DBT85 (11 Apr 2021)

80% herd immunity will only work with the original covid-19 variant that was less virulent. With the newer ones that are now most common, closer to 90 and 95% is required.



mikej460 said:


> No but I think it's reasonable to assume said reaper will have a nice haircut...


By the end of tomorrow, certainly!

I'm booked in for Tuesday. A birthday haircut!


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## mikej460 (11 Apr 2021)

DBT85 said:


> 80% herd immunity will only work with the original covid-19 variant that was less virulent. With the newer ones that are now most common, closer to 90 and 95% is required.
> 
> 
> By the end of tomorrow, certainly!
> ...


Happy birthday - have a good one


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## DBT85 (11 Apr 2021)

mikej460 said:


> Happy birthday - have a good one


Seeing my mum and dad for the first time since xmas day, she's made me cupcakes and I'm getting county reknowned sausage rolls and scotch eggs from the Fladbury Pie Shop! Who needs more?


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## RobinBHM (11 Apr 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> For my own peace of mind I try to keep your nose out of other peoples affairs.


Very wise advice.


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## RobinBHM (11 Apr 2021)

Amateur said:


> Should I have kept my gob shut



Sometimes the pragmatic solution is to not get involved.

Sometimes telling people the truth doesn't have a positive outcome.....the reality is when he told you, he had already travelled, so any damage was done. Telling him he did wrong couldn't undo anything, you might want to ask yourself what your motivation was for saying something.

Reading between the lines, I wonder if your mate pushed you for an answer as he knew he did wrong and wanted your support as validation. You probably told him what he knew......and was denying to himself.


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## mikej460 (11 Apr 2021)

DBT85 said:


> Seeing my mum and dad for the first time since xmas day, she's made me cupcakes and I'm getting county reknowned sausage rolls and scotch eggs from the Fladbury Pie Shop! Who needs more?


Excellent! It'll be a good day all round.


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## TominDales (11 Apr 2021)

DBT85 said:


> Seeing my mum and dad for the first time since xmas day, she's made me cupcakes and I'm getting county reknowned sausage rolls and scotch eggs from the Fladbury Pie Shop! Who needs more?


Have a good one.
I'm off to the barber first thing tomorrow Its over four months since I had one and my wife wont let me near any family photos. I've had the vaccine so feel relatively ok about it, one covid case in our areas this w/e and I'll take a mask. I need to smarten up, the local school has a safeguarding inspection on Tuesday from the council/ofsted, and I'm pastoral governor so don't want to be told to get a short back and sides.....


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## TominDales (11 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Sometimes the pragmatic solution is to not get involved.
> 
> Sometimes telling people the truth doesn't have a positive outcome.....the reality is when he told you, he had already travelled, so any damage was done. Telling him he did wrong couldn't undo anything, you might want to ask yourself what your motivation was for saying something.
> 
> Reading between the lines, I wonder if your mate pushed you for an answer as he knew he did wrong and wanted your support as validation. You probably told him what he knew......and was denying to himself.


One exception to this generally sound advice, is sometime friends need someone to tell them the truth for their own good. That's often hard, and needs judgement as to the right time etc, but its what a true friend does. We had a girl in the office who had bad BO and its was starting to become a the joke behind her back. We draw lots on who was going to tactfully tell her, most of the strong men turned instantly into jelly at the prospect.....


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## KingAether (12 Apr 2021)

If me and me mates didn't often say some really challenging things to each other in reaction to our respective choices/actions/opinions i'd worry something was wrong. Especially after 40 years he should be able to hear your concern, take it for what it is and respect it whether that means understanding but agreeing to disagree or having a change of mind over it. Personally i'd say you did the right thing being open with your concerns, if he doesn't like that its a shame but it is what it is.


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## DBT85 (12 Apr 2021)

TominDales said:


> Have a good one.
> I'm off to the barber first thing tomorrow Its over four months since I had one and my wife wont let me near any family photos. I've had the vaccine so feel relatively ok about it, one covid case in our areas this w/e and I'll take a mask. I need to smarten up, the local school has a safeguarding inspection on Tuesday from the council/ofsted, and I'm pastoral governor so don't want to be told to get a short back and sides.....


I know that feeling. I wanted to get booked in for the 12th but every slot went in about 20 minutes! Already got my next one booked in already just in case.

Looking forward to a nice short neat haircut again and a neatly trimmed beard. I currently sport the "through a hedge backwards" effect.


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## Dave Brookes (12 Apr 2021)

I found the best way to ensure people in the supermarket keep their distance is to wear my Hannibal Lecter face mask!


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## Lons (12 Apr 2021)

artie said:


> In my experience the more truth you tell the less (so called) friends you will have.



Now I know why I don't have any.


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## Blackswanwood (12 Apr 2021)

DBT85 said:


> Looking forward to a nice short neat haircut again and a neatly trimmed beard. I currently sport the "through a hedge backwards" effect



I planned ahead for any potential pandemic many years ago and married a hairdresser ... which is probably one of the most expensive haircuts possible


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## Mark Hancock (12 Apr 2021)

DBT85 said:


> Seeing my mum and dad for the first time since xmas day, she's made me cupcakes and I'm getting county reknowned sausage rolls and scotch eggs from the Fladbury Pie Shop! Who needs more?


Don't forget the Pork Pie !


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## mikej460 (12 Apr 2021)

DBT85 said:


> I know that feeling. I wanted to get booked in for the 12th but every slot went in about 20 minutes! Already got my next one booked in already just in case.
> 
> Looking forward to a nice short neat haircut again and a neatly trimmed beard. I currently sport the "through a hedge backwards" effect.


I'm currently sporting the 'I sleep in a park' look


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## shed9 (12 Apr 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> Reading between the lines, I wonder if your mate pushed you for an answer as he knew he did wrong and wanted your support as validation. You probably told him what he knew......and was denying to himself.


I suspect there is a lot in this comment. It probably accounts for the 'mate's' subsequent reaction in that he knows what he did is wrong and maintaining contact with the OP will just perpetuate that in the immediate term.

As for the initial question of speaking truth or not? It's all relative in that we are all truth efficient to some extent, it's all a matter of the efficiency of it. I would wager that when COVID finally catches up with the Spanish property owner, either directly or indirectly then the conversation will be quite different.


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## bp122 (12 Apr 2021)

My wife keeps reading this series of threads on Facebook, I think, called "am I the ar****le" 

It is filled with examples like yours.

I think you some your mind and that is the right thing to do. Your mate should have respected your right to have an opinion and acknowledged the possiblity of it not being aligned with his, especially after you asked him if he really wanted you to speak your mind. 

If he wants this friendship, he will come around. If he doesn't, his loss by the sound of it.


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## Stanleymonkey (12 Apr 2021)

You tried to not bring it up - but your friend kept on asking and asking despite warnings!!

He wasn't going to let it drop. That made it hard on you to avoid it. He sounds like the kind of person who might have cut you off in two years times in a disagreement over a parking ticket or borrowing some cash. I have lost friends who were not far from being brothers and still miss them. It is hard but you have to move on.

As for the covid / selfish argument. Although no one in my family has thankfully died, we have had relatives in intensive care who are slowly recovering. Fit and healthy friends who can't make a coffee without needing to rest now because of long covid. I wouldn't wish that onto anyone. So it's not about being over dramatic.


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## XH558 (12 Apr 2021)

Social Distancing Tourette's is working just fine for me ................


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## Droogs (12 Apr 2021)

Personaly, he seems to care little for other human beings. People that selfish and arrogant are better out of you life than in. If you had kept up the pretense that all was fine, resentment would kill the "friendship" over time any.


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## Peterm1000 (13 Apr 2021)

If everyone broke friendships with everyone who broke the Covid rules, a lot of people would have no friends...


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## DBT85 (13 Apr 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> If everyone broke friendships with everyone who broke the Covid rules, a lot of people would have no friends...


Where does one draw the line? Wearing a mask below the nose is minor. Organising a house party or going on holiday is quite another.


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## TominDales (13 Apr 2021)

We probably need that 'British' trait of tolerance. Good old fashioned obey the laws of the land and be tolerant of those around us, it is needed more than anything right now. That does not mean condoning lawlessness, but as most teachers and police know, its picking the right fights to maintain high standards.

I had my haircut last night at 10pm. The 21 year old lad who cut it, I was his last customer on a busy day!, said he felt the government measures were overblown and he felt it was all exaggerated. I listened and mildly moved on to say how it was age dependant and the healthcare system has locked up giving the government little choice (by this stage he had a fresh razor blade at my neck, so i was perhaps being extra tactful..). 
From his perspective, he had obeyed all the regulations, he was wearing a mask and used plenty of hand gel etc, I had been into the shop earlier to book the appointment and they only allowed a couple in at once (compared to the other barbers in town, that were packed out). He said he had only worked 9 weeks since October and they had a shop with rent to pay as well as his flat rental etc. Many in his age-group have had covid and hardly noticed it. Whereas I am in a salaried job and can work from home saving money. As with most self employed people, he had never taken time-off for coughs and colds and didn't see this as much different. 
This disease affects families differently, it has robbed some unfortunate families of loved ones, those working in f2f professions have had to endure hardship at work and financial hardship due to business shut downs. Those whose lifeline depends on serving people f2f or whose income depends on property have had hard choices to make. 
As you say having a party is irresponsible but some people are facing very hard choices while others are hardly affected.


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## Peterm1000 (13 Apr 2021)

DBT85 said:


> Where does one draw the line? Wearing a mask below the nose is minor. Organising a house party or going on holiday is quite another.


I think Tomindales has this summed up quite well... People make their own decisions. Unless someone is going around actively coughing on people or licking the shelves in Tesco, I think we should be a little more tolerant. I frequently have friends who have different views to me (politics, Brexit etc. etc.) but it would have to be really bad for me to lose a friendship over it.

A 3 week trip to Spain that may or may not have been allowed by the rules then? Never.


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## MARK.B. (13 Apr 2021)

Never once in all the time spent in lockdown have i had any concerns about getting a haircut  of course being Bald has helped a lot


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## TominDales (16 Apr 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> Never once in all the time spent in lockdown have i had any concerns about getting a haircut  of course being Bald has helped a lot


I've gone 5 month without a haircut, our chairman at work asked if I was living under a bridge, my wife banned me from photos with the kids. But the trigger was a safeguarding inspection by the Local authority of our school and as the pastoral governor, I didn't fancy being told to get a short back and sides.


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## Spectric (16 Apr 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> If everyone broke friendships with everyone who broke the Covid rules, a lot of people would have no friends


But maybe there would have been less deaths if breaking Covid rules was socially unacceptable and freinds told freinds and stood there ground.


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## D_W (16 Apr 2021)

MARK.B. said:


> Never once in all the time spent in lockdown have i had any concerns about getting a haircut  of course being Bald has helped a lot



ditto, except I've cut my own hair with clippers for somewhere around 18 years now. When we went to shutdown, I.....cut my hair with clippers. 

10 minutes every two weeks. My wife used to hassle me about how much time I wasted cutting my own hair until I asked her to total the minutes I'd spend getting appointments and driving.


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## jcassidy (17 Apr 2021)

Ignoring the whole covid thing, we have two people on the opposite sides of an issue.

You think he's being a dick about it but you're willing to let it go.

He thinks you're being a dick about it but he's not willing to let it go.

Hopefully he won't bin 45 years of friendship over it, but it's his choice.

I suspect he's super p****ed because he knows you're right and he's wrong, which as anyone who has had an argument with their spouse knows, is the worst position to be in!


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## D_W (17 Apr 2021)

jcassidy said:


> You think he's being a dick about it but you're willing to let it go.
> 
> He thinks you're being a dick about it but he's not willing to let it go.



That's not what I gathered from the first post. I gathered the guy was talking his thoughts, OP didn't like it and stopped responding in general, and his buddy asked him why he wasn't responding. I didn't get the sense that buddy demanded to keep talking about his covid behavior, but rather didn't expect that it would stop all conversation. 

If it was someone I actually considered to be a friend, I'd have probably said "that's pretty irresponsible given the circumstances". If buddy came back and had covid, the response would've been more brisk. That would've been the end of it unless buddy kept justifying it, and my response would've been similarly blunt. No reason to keep bringing it up, i'm not going to agree with that.


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## TominDales (17 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> But maybe there would have been less deaths if breaking Covid rules was socially unacceptable and freinds told freinds and stood there ground.


While I do agree with this. There was little consensus last summer for that to happen, it is now generally regarded as a failure of leadership at the start of Covid by our government. It meant people were confused on what to do, it was hard to see rule breaking (bending) as socially unacceptable. There were (still are) strong voices in the governing party arguing against lock down and BJ kept giving in to them throughout the spring and early summer.
Even after banning overseas trips, his dad flew to Greece to open up his holiday home - apparently a legally ok thing to do. His key adviser ignored the rules and went un-punished. 
Despite the equivocal nature of lockdown rules last year, surveys have shown that the large majority of UK public have stuck to the rules. The two big exceptions being, last summer holidays - which were legalised - and poorer communities where low paid workers continued to work in f2f jobs ignoring self-isolation practices. Again, this has been poorly enforced and without proper economic support for those types of jobs (many not qualifying for furlough, or for sick pay). Again both of these exceptions are down to policy decisions. This behavior has devastated poorer communities, in our region the large south Asian minority community in West Yorkshire has seen deaths in every street, with several family members killed. In most cases they faced the choice of not feeding the family or raking risks. 

Conditions are much better right now.
Since January we have seen clearer and consistent government messaging and pretty strong leadership, 'abundance of caution' at each unlock turn. The un-lock hawks have been resisted and a gradual measured approach to un-lock is underway. Its been consistent and largely data driven. That combined with the successful roll out of the vaccine has restored confidence in the leadership (whether one likes them or not) for a general consensus to be built. These are the pre-conditions necessary for socially acceptable norms to be enforced by the general public. 
I agree with you that we need it to be socially unacceptable to break the rules. I think we in a better position to that to happen now. About time, I suppose this virus took us all by surprise. 
To face down dangerous new variants in the cumming months we will need this level of care. The recent 'surge' testing in London is a good example of this new approach. However we will have another summer of pubs open and foreign holidays before the new varietals start to rampage over the next winter - will we remember what do to. Hopefully we have learned the ebb and flow of this disease by then..


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## Spectric (17 Apr 2021)

Was there any real leadership, I think in the face of the pandemic they just fell apart and run around like lost sheep, that is why I think that we need a government body made up of all the right people, probably cross party that takes full control when this sort of emergency arises and can act fast without all the political bickering and discussion. Ok some would view them as a dictatorship but that is what is needed in an emergency like a pandemic, but will we learn anything from this, no.


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## TominDales (17 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Was there any real leadership, I think in the face of the pandemic they just fell apart and run around like lost sheep, that is why I think that we need a government body made up of all the right people, probably cross party that takes full control when this sort of emergency arises and can act fast without all the political bickering and discussion. Ok some would view them as a dictatorship but that is what is needed in an emergency like a pandemic, but will we learn anything from this, no.


Totally agree, it was hopeless last year. But I do think they have got things together this year - which is leadership in its way. Not the strong Churchill, Blair, Thatcher or Lloyd-George type of muscular leadership we have had in past crises, but a lot better, maybe Callahan-lite??. I'm trying to think of weaker leadership in our history than the performance last summer - King John maybe.


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## Lons (17 Apr 2021)

Yet *another* thread that's somehow morphed into politics and heading down the same route as those that went before.


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## Jacob (17 Apr 2021)

Lons said:


> Yet *another* thread that's somehow morphed into politics and heading down the same route as those that went before.


Not my fault I didn't say a word!
No need to - seems to be a consensus on failure of leadership etc.
You are entitled to defend Johnson if you must but trying to stop people talking about issues isn't the same thing at all.


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## D_W (17 Apr 2021)

Spectric said:


> Was there any real leadership, I think in the face of the pandemic they just fell apart and run around like lost sheep, that is why I think that we need a government body made up of all the right people, probably cross party that takes full control when this sort of emergency arises and can act fast without all the political bickering and discussion. Ok some would view them as a dictatorship but that is what is needed in an emergency like a pandemic, but will we learn anything from this, no.



First, no fan of politics - this is more of an observation of reality, and not for or against one or the other. 

But let's be realistic about what was going on - businesses were fighting for the ability to survive and there wasn't clear direction on what and how much relief would be provided. If the entire world had locked down and the disease had kind of just gone away, we'd be hearing endless nonsense about how they ruined peoples' lives by causing their businesses to go under. 

It's driving by looking through the rearview mirror at this point - everyone should stop it. It wasn't really even that long ago that we knew whether or not we'd have a vaccine. 

And the whole stupid hand washing thing - don't get me started on that. Or telling people that it would send a bad message if they wore n95 masks in public, because they should only be kept for front line workers. 

We all get very good at solving problems and pointing fingers after the fact.


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## D_W (17 Apr 2021)

TominDales said:


> Totally agree, it was hopeless last year. But I do think they have got things together this year - which is leadership in its way. Not the strong Churchill, Blair, Thatcher or Lloyd-George type of muscular leadership we have had in past crises, but a lot better, maybe Callahan-lite??. I'm trying to think of weaker leadership in our history than the performance last summer - King John maybe.



point us to a large country with any level of freedom that has a lot of foreign traffic to and through, and where we'd say there has been great leadership through covid. There must be a unicorn somewhere that locked every single person down, everyone tolerated it, and that vaccinated the entire population before anyone else.


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## Lons (18 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> Not my fault I didn't say a word!
> No need to - seems to be a consensus on failure of leadership etc.
> You are entitled to defend Johnson if you must but trying to stop people talking about issues isn't the same thing at all.


1. I never accused YOU of saying anything, though you have now.  
2. Consensus is more likely that the whole lot across all parties have their noses in the trough.
3. Never once have I defended Johnson, I dislike him as much as I did your "yesterday man" best mate.
4. I haven't tried to stop anyone talking about issues. I made a comment that this has morphed into a politics thread yet again. It has - fact!

Any betting person on here would put money on this going down the same route as the others and eventually being locked. There's a reason that politics is (allegedly) a banned subject on forums like this, maybe it's time the rule was either enforced or thrown out. There are plenty of political forums out there for anyone who wants an argument.


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## Daniel2 (18 Apr 2021)

There's no obligation to read, or participate in, a thread which doesn't please us.


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## AJB Temple (18 Apr 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> There's no obligation to read, or participate in, a thread which doesn't please us.


I surmise that is not the reason why politics etc are not allowed. No one ever changes their mind as a result of "debate" on forums, but finger pointing and name calling escalate. Some people enjoy argument and baiting. This all usually taints forums as the personal enmity spreads into other areas. In the end it just wastes moderator time and puts a lot of people off participating in the workshop sections.


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## Daniel2 (18 Apr 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> I surmise that is not the reason why politics etc are not allowed. No one ever changes their mind as a result of "debate" on forums, but finger pointing and name calling escalate. Some people enjoy argument and baiting. This all usually taints forums as the personal enmity spreads into other areas. In the end it just wastes moderator time and puts a lot of people off participating in the workshop sections.



I never have been very good at seeing a wider picture  
You give a good explanation.


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## Jacob (18 Apr 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> I surmise that is not the reason why politics etc are not allowed. No one ever changes their mind as a result of "debate" on forums,


They might or might not but they do get better informed if they want to. I find myself googling all sorts of things which I was unsure about.
I find it interesting, not least because it's a variegated bunch of people with all sorts of opinions; more interesting than talking to people who agree with everything you say!


> but finger pointing and name calling escalate.


yes well that's where it becomes tedious, for the mods especially. Not that difficult though to put it down.


> Some people enjoy argument and baiting.


Takes all sorts! Can be done in a good natured, grown up and civilised way


> This all usually taints forums as the personal enmity spreads into other areas. ....


It need not. Anyway people who get agitated and feel threatened probably need a bit of healthy exposure to other views. And there is a good deal of simple information exchange involved


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## Peterm1000 (18 Apr 2021)

Travel to Spain has never been banned. It wasn't banned last year and it isn't banned now. There are and have always been a set of reasons why travel is allowed. Most people won't be able to comply with those reasons but if you own a place in Spain its very possible that you have been allowed to travel all last year and all this year. This is why Bojo's Dad could travel - perfectly legally. 

Of course it would have been safer for the person to stay at home but we have all been leaving home for a variety of reasons and all taking a certain level of risk when we do.


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## RobinBHM (18 Apr 2021)

Peterm1000 said:


> Travel to Spain has never been banned. It wasn't banned last year and it isn't banned now. There are and have always been a set of reasons why travel is allowed. Most people won't be able to comply with those reasons but if you own a place in Spain its very possible that you have been allowed to travel all last year and all this year. This is why Bojo's Dad could travel - perfectly legally.
> 
> Of course it would have been safer for the person to stay at home but we have all been leaving home for a variety of reasons and all taking a certain level of risk when we do.



I didn't realise the OPs mate was Bojo's dad


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## TominDales (18 Apr 2021)

Sorry, my apologies for sparking this off.
I was trying to make the point that, for a consensus on what is socially acceptable, requires a clear & consistent message that is constantly re-enforced by the all in government - at all levels ie national and local - and of whatever country or party as a pre-condition.
I believe we have those conditions at the moment, which is a good thing and will allow a social consensus to build up on what is quite a complex issue. Its a good thing as it will save lives. Making that point, seemed a bit incongruous as last year we did not have those conditions, so the jokes at BJ's expense for the summers chaos was meant to acknowledge the temporal contradiction and be humorous - but probably ill-considered, I haven't been on this forum for long, so not that aware of the mine-field. Mia culpa


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## D_W (18 Apr 2021)

When the government starts to define what's socially acceptable and what's not and it gets really rigid, then you have China. 

That doesn't mean that people who did selfish things weren't weenies, but I'd prefer a society where you don't get things like "Social credit" scores that prevent you from free movement. 

The problem with "all in one way" type groups is that you will find that quite often, you don't enjoy their all in one way, and they foster a group of tattle tales (this is actually common in Amish societies - where a large segment of the population particularly enjoys telling on people - and not for positive reasons).


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## Jacob (18 Apr 2021)

TominDales said:


> Sorry, my apologies for sparking this off.
> I was trying to make the point that, for a consensus on what is socially acceptable, requires a clear & consistent message that is constantly re-enforced by the all in government - at all levels ie national and local - and of whatever country or party as a pre-condition.
> I believe we have those conditions at the moment, which is a good thing and will allow a social consensus to build up on what is quite a complex issue. Its a good thing as it will save lives. Making that point, seemed a bit incongruous as last year we did not have those conditions, so the jokes at BJ's expense for the summers chaos was meant to acknowledge the temporal contradiction and be humorous - but probably ill-considered, I haven't been on this forum for long, so not that aware of the mine-field. Mia culpa


The mine field is out there - we just talk about it here! 
Information exchange/discussion, essential to the democratic process.


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## rafezetter (20 Apr 2021)

DBT85 said:


> A good friend is one that can take you calling them a dick if they are being a dick.
> 
> On the subject of vaccines I am all for letting people choose whether to get a vaccine, just as I am all for people choosing whether to do business with or see people who haven't for non medical reasons.
> 
> It'll be moot anyway, as soon as the likes of Spain or France say you can't come here without a vaccine the amount of holdouts that are worried about Bill Gates controlling them with 5g signals will dissipate becase they'll want to go on holiday.



I was going to basically say the same but you beat me to it, especially the first part. I've been helping a friend of 35 years get through a very messy and difficult situation with his clearly unreasonable wife, by giving him my couch to sleep on for almost 11 months (so far) as well as some very frank and honest discussions, with me basically calling her a looner (good reason, I said it was messy), She's his wife and he loves her, so he doesn't like it, but we are still friends, because he clearly understands his welfare is my driving motivation (especially after he attempted suicide)

Sometimes the only way to help someone be a better person is to tell them they are being a dick (or that thier wife is a manipulative cow whom, now she's got 2 babies, 2yrs old and 6 months who incedentally kicked him out BEFORE the second was even born, is after the house she made him buy).



Lons said:


> Now I know why I don't have any.



I'm sure you do Lons,




Peterm1000 said:


> If everyone broke friendships with everyone who broke the Covid rules, a lot of people would have no friends...



Less chance of contamination then, works for me  - Too many new variants now, and a-holes too eager to do non ESSENTIAL travel without giving consideration to consequences.


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## Peterm1000 (20 Apr 2021)

Sure - tell someone what you think. I think that's fine. But then telling them that unless they agree with you, they can't be your friend - that doesn't sound very tolerant to me.


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## Amateur (21 Apr 2021)

Jacob said:


> They might or might not but they do get better informed if they want to. I find myself googling all sorts of things which I was unsure about.
> I find it interesting, not least because it's a variegated bunch of people with all sorts of opinions; more interesting than talking to people who agree with everything you say! yes well that's where it becomes tedious, for the mods especially. Not that difficult though to put it down.Takes all sorts! Can be done in a good natured, grown up and civilised way
> It need not. Anyway people who get agitated and feel threatened probably need a bit of healthy exposure to other views. And there is a good deal of simple information exchange involved


I very nearly believed, you believed what you wrote then


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