# Request for advice - long fine furniture making course



## Eldi76 (29 Sep 2021)

I would like to ask for the opinion of the forum’s members about woodworking/fine furniture making course.
I am in a position that I can take a 1-year break of the rat race, and consider coming to the UK for an intensive furniture making/design course.
Has anyone done the long course with Peter Quin at the Furniture Craft School? I would love to hear any views. Please free to PM me if you prefer to keep them confidential.
Other schools I've looked at include Williams & Cleal, Rowden Atelier, Marc Fish, Waters & Acland. These schools seem to have a very good curriculum, and in addition maintain Instagram accounts/website pages where I can find lots of information and read former students reviews. I cannot find a single review about Peter Quin’s furniture school, which is a bit odd. I may also note that intensive courses at these four schools (W&C, Rowden, Marc Fish and W&A) are much more expensive than, for example, Peter Quin’s furniture craft school, and ask myself what is the reason… how much is related to PR and is there a big difference in the quality of the tutors/programme between these schools. 
I would appreciate any opinion about any of the mentioned schools and would love to get any recommendation about other schools.
Thank you!


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## nickds1 (29 Sep 2021)

One thing I would say in public is that I was a national trust chippie based at Scotney about 5mtrs from Peter's workshops (an adjacent building, just across a small drive - we shared facilities). I spoke to a fair few of his students and with him often.

Whilst we made stuff for the NT, his students were making really nice items for themselves and I heard nothing but positive comments. I also liked the quality of their work.


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## Ttrees (29 Sep 2021)

There's Peter Sefton, Chris Tribe and Rykotewood also
I would personally just equip a workshop with tools and machinery, should you not be equipped already, as you would be back at the start again if you were to go on a course like that.
Even if you have money aside for that later, you likely could upgrade it all from the get go.
Plenty of stuff on youtube, videos and most importantly forums to learn from.

If you like the look of some folks work here for example, you could see whom they follow
as we all "stand on the shoulders of giants"
Have a look at some threads in the archives here, for something like your favourite woodworker / youtube channels, and you should find a wealth of information to digest.

The design part I have not explored, but have glossed over the classicals in the past.
George Walker for example, food for thought...
Can it be applied to today's homes, is a valid question.

I don't know what you might get from design courses TBH, could be a load of pretentiousness
but that's what gallery's love I suppose.

Lastly a few folks over your side of the world might be able to suggest something more local
for a visit, like Derek Cohen, Scott Horsborough, I think is on your island also.

All the best
Tom


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## Jameshow (29 Sep 2021)

Chris tribe is retiring I think.... 

Someone not sure who is taking over.... 

Cheers James


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## Blackswanwood (29 Sep 2021)

Another one worth considering is the Chippendale School at Haddington.


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## Droogs (29 Sep 2021)

There is also the Chippendale School near Edinburgh, which has a long residential coure for fine furniture making

PS
I have seen the work of several of the alumni and it is to a very high standard. The course includes having guest teachers including Scott Grove for marquetry techniques. He covers some pretty complex work including compund veneering in multiple planes of axis using single pieces. very good stuff


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## Spectric (29 Sep 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Plenty of stuff on youtube, videos and most importantly forums to learn from.


Where it is a practical subject you need that one to one touch at least in the early days, youtube is ok for a sideline but it is a mine field In many cases where you could easily pick up bad, unsafe or just wrong approaches to a task and many are biased towards something for one reason or another. Hard to fully explain but in my welding days having that experienced person looking over your shoulder to see what you are doing wrong and demonstating techniques was invaluable, you could not self teach to that level.

I think @Peter Sefton is nolonger running his furniture school either.


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## Droogs (29 Sep 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Another one worth considering is the Chippendale School at Haddington.


SNAP



lol


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## thetyreman (29 Sep 2021)

I don't think peter is still offering the long-term courses he made a post about it, and chris tribe has retired now. 

I am quite impressed with walters and acland myself and that'd be one of the places I'd be researching, have heard good things about west dean college as well.


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## Peter Sefton (29 Sep 2021)

Thanks for the mention Ttrees

I have decided to cease running our long course, I ran it for over ten years and really enjoyed seeing the students grow but decided I was missing on seeing my own girls grow in the meantime. I don't want to sound like a politician but decided to have a bit more time with the family and concentrate on our short course programme. The tool shop has also continued to grow wanted to develop new products and our own AUK brand including having more things made in the UK.

As I understand it Peter Quin’s course is C&Gs based and I assume he gets funding as a traditional college may. I must say I have always liked the professionalism of Williams and Cleal and feel they have a good standard of teaching and quality making. If I ever lost a potential student to W&C I felt they were in safe hands and would get a solid training.

I think you should always try and have a good talk to school, find out who is actually teaching you and also do you like their style of furniture.

Cheers

Peter


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## Ttrees (29 Sep 2021)

Spectric said:


> Where it is a practical subject you need that one to one touch at least in the early days, youtube is ok for a sideline but it is a mine field In many cases where you could easily pick up bad, unsafe or just wrong approaches to a task and many are biased towards something for one reason or another. Hard to fully explain but in my welding days having that experienced person looking over your shoulder to see what you are doing wrong and demonstating techniques was invaluable, you could not self teach to that level.
> 
> I think @Peter Sefton is nolonger running his furniture school either.



That's where the forums come into play, that should be easy to do after spending some time reading up on who to watch.
A handful of names should appear time and time again, rather than the daft stuff from most youtuber woodworkers which gets shoved in your face, which is definitely a problem for the gullible.
"Link is in the description" covers most of those, or a background of orange tools.
This is due to analytics and product placement, and on a similar note one must be aware of product placement through other means, that goes for video series drip feed too.

Plenty of folks to watch who don't want money, I'd bet on David W's channel being one of the best,
and sneered upon by a few, although not meant to be a starter course, just for demonstration.

There are video courses which may be of use, like Charlesworth's for instance, I think Peter has some too, which would likely be as fine work if one seeks that.

Above all a good bench is the most important tool for very fine work, what's likely to be focused on in most of the furniture courses, as it's probably to focus on what Klausz said, do it well first, then do it faster.
The workbench and the rest of the workshop should give an idea of what one might want to seek out for fine work, take Custard's posts here for example, compared to some who do other work, it should be evident on the type of work they do from a bit of study, mainly the bench is most informative I think.

Edit; this thread might be of help








List of notable woodworkers who use only hand tools


Hello, Can you please help me create a list of notable woodworkers who use only hand tools for their work? I would like to get to know new names for inspiration. By hand tools only I mean people who besides joinery also dimension their wood by hand (saw and plane). I already know: - Tom...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk




Tom


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## Jameshow (29 Sep 2021)

Another thought. 

How about getting an apprenticeship with a top quality cabinet maker. One near me says he cannot find those with the passion to get into making fine furniture, kitchens bedrooms etc. 

Cheers James


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## Eldi76 (30 Sep 2021)

Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.

Indeed, Peter Sefton and Chris tribe do not offer long courses anymore.

The reason I prefer to find a school in the UK (or elsewhere) is to have a different experience and at the same time get out of my comfort zone, I believe this is something I do need at this stage.

I will check Chippendale School, although I prefer a smaller school with much more personal approach.

Jamesshow – getting an apprenticeship with a top quality cabinet maker is a good idea that went through my mind…I just asked myself why one should take me (without experience) and invest so much time and efforts…If you know about someone please let me know.

I should also note that, upon completion of the course/ apprenticeship, my vision is to design and make fine furniture and at the same time contribute back to society by delivering woodworking classes to young teenagers with Intellectual disabilities. Giving these young people a sense of worth and self-esteem by creating something from scratch, has the potential to change one's life trajectory. It is something that close to my heart.
Thanks again!


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## Geir (30 Sep 2021)

A long course is a very good idea. Having an experienced craftsman explaining, looking over your shoulder and correcting is a thousand times more valuable than all the Youtube videos in the world. It can not even be compared.
I have been looking at the same places myself. I have also done short courses several places. This is extremely useful, but maybe not practical when you are "down under". I did two weeks at Rowden while mr. Savage was still around and it is excellent in almost every way. It is hard to explain but I would not spend a year there.
Have you considered North America? I did two weeks at Inside passage near Vancouver, Canada. I would not hesitate to sign up for a year there, but they have a long waiting list. There is also a place called Center for Furniture Craftmanship in Maine which looks very good.


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## David Young (30 Sep 2021)

Hello. I am a cabinetmaker in Scotland. My business is also a registered training centre for the furniture and woodworking industry.
Over the past few years I have built a workshop within the grounds of Fingask Castle where I am looking to then run short courses along with having a few students on a 1 or 2 year training programme, if this is something you feel you would be interested in please contact me directly. www.davidyoungtraining.co.uk
[email protected] 

Regards David


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## JAW911 (30 Sep 2021)

Interesting thread for me too……also interesting that no-one has first-hand experience of any of these courses (thread only started yesterday though).


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## Blaidd-Drwg (30 Sep 2021)

Droogs said:


> There is also the Chippendale School near Edinburgh, which has a long residential coure for fine furniture making
> 
> PS
> I have seen the work of several of the alumni and it is to a very high standard. The course includes having guest teachers including Scott Grove for marquetry techniques. He covers some pretty complex work including compund veneering in multiple planes of axis using single pieces. very good stuff



I also recommend Chippendale. I took the professional course a few years ago and not only do they teach furniture making and design, but also the business and marketing aspects of woodworking.


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## Austin Branson (30 Sep 2021)

Eldi76 said:


> Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.
> 
> Indeed, Peter Sefton and Chris tribe do not offer long courses anymore.
> 
> ...


Hi Eldi, I am intrigued by your desire to teach folk with intellectual disabilities. I was, in my past life, the woodwork teacher at Queen Alexandra College, in Birmingham. Ostensibly, a college for the visually impaired, there were several students with learning disabilities, and others with multiple disabilities. I applaud your motives. I found the work immensely rewarding, if more than a little frustrating at times. Best wishes for your future. Austin


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## Spectric (30 Sep 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Above all a good bench is the most important tool for very fine work,


Yes saw a silly youtube video where the bench was rocking back and forth as the guy was doing some routing, just unwatchable as they were clearly demonstrating incompetance.


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## Blackswanwood (30 Sep 2021)

David Young said:


> Hello. I am a cabinetmaker in Scotland. My business is also a registered training centre for the furniture and woodworking industry.
> Over the past few years I have built a workshop within the grounds of Fingask Castle where I am looking to then run short courses along with having a few students on a 1 or 2 year training programme, if this is something you feel you would be interested in please contact me directly. www.davidyoungtraining.co.uk
> [email protected]
> 
> Regards David


Hi David - what are you planning on covering in your short courses?

Cheers


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## Ttrees (30 Sep 2021)

Another source to seek for training might be on the Auzzie forum,
should it be the case of a tool requirement.
This could be expensive, as I've heard Cosman mention folks bringing unusable tools to his classes before, and commenting that it would take an age to get said tools working in a usable state.
And to complicate further, some tools might not even be available.

Not saying that all places will be like that, but seems to me like one might be better off getting the basics like tool prep outta the way and spend their money a bit more wisely on intermediate and professional skill training down the road a bit.

Basically saying if you've got the money to jet set off to get training, you sound like you don't have the time to build a bench, so maybe you might have to buy one instead.
Either way a bench is going to be first thing you will need, so it might be worth considering something like a Sjobergs professional job, (not the wee toy ones) or something solid like that.
Take note that you won't find too many ones chewed to bits, with chisel marks and saw cuts which tells a story.

Youtuber Matt Estlea might be one you could have a look at, he is a tutor now where he studied before at Rycotewood.
I think he mentioned a lot of stuff about his time there, which likely would be of interest.
He also used the place for building his bench, which might make more sense if you found something local.

Get the tools first is my way of thinking, or at least start collecting everything you will need now.
One could spend the cost on travel, accommodation and tutorage on the things needed
as it all adds up.
Should you not be in a position to be buying new saws, planes and all the rest
(if required)
Then have you seen the prices of off the shelf ready to go and possibly posh enough on paper tools
the likes of Lie-Nielsen, Clifton, or at least Quangsheng/Wood river/Bench dog and whoever else who makes knockoff Lie Nielsen/Veritas stuff that's guaranteed to be within spec, etc

Not saying all facilities would be the same, but some food for thought.

I'm likely making this all sound horribly expensive, and I'll bet a few folks watching
very much disagree, and have everything sorted for you already, no tools necessary, but worth noting just incase.

If not then there is always videos to buy which would be an inbetween,
if you can splash out for tutorage.
Not sure if they offer much more than whats out there on youtube though, take the likes of
the departed Phil Lowe's series shot by some organisation titled ...The art of woodworking.
There would hopefully be an index so you could get an idea on what you wish to learn.

One could do this all on the cheap by looking on the forums, buy good machinery, timber
and tools, without being hung up needing something if stuck.
and build a bench which would likely be as good as a course, or buy one and build something
which would do the same.

Just saying again I think a fine furniture course would be better off on specific subjects and not just getting the basics down.
I think Charlesworth does that kinda thing, aswell as the videos, which from Charlesworth from what I've seen on two videos are as good if not better than being there in person,
The precise instructions, attention to detail and honesty regarding the work is unmatched, and is strictly concerning the finest work one can do.

Sorry for the long winded post
Tom


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## Spectric (30 Sep 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I'm likely making this all sound horribly expensive,


I think it will be as expensive as you want to make it, but if you buy right first time and remove the process of itteration that myself and others have taken then it will result in a more cost effective solution, buying cheap often means buying again. Are you saying that in a country the size of Australia there are no woodworking courses to join and you will need to travel half way round the planet or are you wanting a change of scenery as well ? If you found a course in the states or Canada then whilst there you could buy some of the tools available cheaper than we pay here for what is top quality, ie Jessem, Woodpecker, Incra etc.


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## Ttrees (30 Sep 2021)

Spectric said:


> I think it will be as expensive as you want to make it,


I most definitely agree with what Spectric has said here.
If you start searching now, (once you know what you're looking for)
you will save money, rather than having to pay up for top of the line tools as you wouldn't have the time to fettle them,
On a similar note in regards to machinery also, you could spend 5 times as much if you want it now.

There is a lot of stuff that might not be involved in a fine woodworking course, there are other subjects like safety which for some machines are course in itself,
The European's have stricter laws and thus safer, ie riving knifes and crown guards used in UK.
Dust extraction, and the logistics of the workshop, i.e possibly getting the sparky in to upgrade the supply.
But for the minute, I'm guessing the focus is on hand tools?
So here is a good thread which would be worth clicking.








Minimal hand tool set


I'm interested to hear what people consider the best balance of the fewest tools possible to do the maximum range of work. If this has been discussed a million times I apologise, just kill it admin! But hey, we all go to the pub and have the same conversation with our mates over and over and...




www.ukworkshop.co.uk





All the best
Tom


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## David Young (3 Oct 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> Hi David - what are you planning on covering in your short courses?
> 
> Cheers


Hello. 
I'm looking to cover courses that would meet peoples/groups needs. Anything from basic hand tools, power tools, manufacturing of frames and carcases, veneering to complex machining. I would also look at specific projects if clients wanted to look at production methods for runs of items. Hope that answers your question. 
Please contact direct for more help with your specific requirements.
I'm always happy to help with advice if I can. Regards D


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## tibi (4 Oct 2021)

Maybe this might be relevant as well





Furniture Making Apprenticeship with Edward Barnsley Workshop


An Edward Barnsley Workshop Furniture Making Apprenticeship provides a thorough practical training in a commercial environment.




www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk


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## JohnPW (4 Oct 2021)

I think all the tools should be provided on a course, and which are maintained by a technician. That means the teachers can concentrate on techniques using the same tools which are set up the same way and not worry about any students' potentially deficient tools.

I agree there's no substitute for a teacher watching and correcting your mistakes.


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## TRITON (4 Oct 2021)

Design/construction = 4 parts design to 1 part construction.

Whatever you want to make you are going to need exact dimensions of every single component. So you need to know what its going to be overall, and the idea you initially start with might not be the finished design totally.
Some might say its easy to keep it all in your head and work it through as you go, which I think is what people looking for a course are wanting the course to give them. They've seen things very nice and maybe selling for lots of money and want to recreate the same thing.

When I first started on a furniture design course, we were given 6-(3 pairs) short pieces of pine. 1 for a half lap joint, 1 for a mortice and tenon, and 1 for a half lapped dovetail, and that was all the instruction of actual working we were given.
You make a dovetail in rough pine, then it is up to you to teach yourself to make any dovetail joint, no matter pitch or size, and the same goes for every other joint.
The actual making is the easy part in my humble opinion, the hard part of it is coming up with eg a cabinet, in all its final dimensions, as well as its overall scale, its important features etc etc.

Design - This to my mind is not really the hardest part, but certainly the longest part of any design idea. You will start with a sketch, then a series of sketches, maybe working off a picture you've seen or is in your head and carry those sketches forward to the finished article. As in each and every part of it. You should marry up features you want prominent int he piece, but may have to discard as the overall takes shape. Legs on a table or other unit might start thick, or so proportioned might not suit and have to be reworked or even rethought, and this rethinking will affect the rest of the design, so best get it down on paper before committing to a final model.


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## kmcleod (5 Oct 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Another source to seek for training might be on the Auzzie forum,
> should it be the case of a tool requirement.
> This could be expensive, as I've heard Cosman mention folks bringing unusable tools to his classes before, and commenting that it would take an age to get said tools working in a usable state.
> And to complicate further, some tools might not even be available.
> ...



Re Charlesworth courses versus videos - I've been lucky enough to take a few of David's courses and while the videos are great, actually being there and doing the course is far superior, IMHO, as its all the 'other' information you pick up during the course that jumps your quality of work forwards.


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## Eldi76 (5 Oct 2021)

IMHO, If one would like to acquire good woodworking skills, it is essential to work/study under the supervision of an expert who is looking over your shoulder to examine what you are doing wrong and demonstrating techniques. I tried learning through YouTube but for me it just doesn’t work. Moreover, there is always a good chance that I will adopt wrong techniques, as there is no one to correct me on real time. These wrong techniques might become habits that will accompany me for a long time. For centuries, the best method of studying a skill or profession was as an apprentice coupled to an expert. Not only in woodworking or other crafts, but also in science and medicine - areas much closer to me.

I have started to build a Roubo-style workbench in a workshop without any guidance, I just had to pay the owner for the use of machines. I followed movies of The Wood Whisperer and in addition used Guido Henn's notes for building this workbench. Still, I found myself stuck at some point; For some reasons, I could not replicate exactly the technique used by the instructors, and there was no one to help with advice or alternative solution. Needless to say that I had very little hands on experience (although I watched many YouTube woodworking movies) and it was very frustrating.

With regards to hand tools – I have quite a few, some of very good quality. I will purchase more in the future, when I would truly need.


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## Ttrees (5 Oct 2021)

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying an old planing video of Charlesworth's which he had an audience
was a real help for me, and I haven't seen anything comparable to it since, 
and I'm no slouch when I'm on the couch!

Others might disagree, but I think dimensioning stock is the biggest thing, and also first thing folks seem to struggle with, as it instantly shows up an inadequate setup, the workbench.
This is for concerning fine work, with good tolerances.

I did have a pretty flat bench to start with, and I made proper use of it after watching the video.
A simple bench bolted to the wall, leveled up construction timbers and old fenceposts, 
A rigid door which I'm told is a solid core, as I was calling them composite fire doors, smooth, heavy and rigid, and a counter lying on top loosely screwed down over it, not too tight to deflect!
It makes planing self explanatory, and if you don't understand, get a dark crayon or graphite for small stuff and scribble on the bench.
The high spots are where you should be planing, simple.
Just incase someone is sweating it out, this will teach where to plane in minutes.
Step two, Charlesworth has some tips on the tube, angle poise lamp is the bees knees for sighting the work.







I'd either be looking to buy something (used and cared for if possible) like a Sjobergs elite, or getting someone or a facility to get a bench made up, be that a course or not, should one have no materials whatsoever to make something trustworthy.
It would make sense to inquire about this regarding a local course.

Have a look at Ben's skookum trestles/sawhorses and think of putting a suitable door, with some aprons if wanting something now, against a wall or something to stop lateral forces like planing.
The mid shelf looks good for putting a beam across, which would allow one to block/shim some timbers in the center to counter deflection if it were a problem.








Post a photo of the last thing you made


What was I thinking? Cut out of a very hard Mahogany but not sure what family it is, so hard it does not need a finish on it. And in the background is a very old tree turned to stone. That's amazing!




www.ukworkshop.co.uk





That would be a good start, the work doesn't need be so difficult, just as long as you know who's worth their onions, as many folk are misleading.

A long reach angle poise lamp and a solid bench, don't hack it up with sawcuts or chisel marks
and see what you make of it, might be worth trying.

I think you would be off to a running start if you had that.
All the best
Tom


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## MikeK (5 Oct 2021)

kmcleod said:


> Re Charlesworth courses versus videos - I've been lucky enough to take a few of David's courses and while the videos are great, actually being there and doing the course is far superior, IMHO, as its all the 'other' information you pick up during the course that jumps your quality of work forwards.



I was fortunate to be able to attend all four of @David C's one-week courses after I retired, with the last two courses in March 2020. I almost had an extended stay in England because the flights back to Germany were rapidly being cancelled.

Prior to David's courses, all of my recent education in fine woodworking was from books or the Internet. I learn better in a classroom environment with Sir observing and providing immediate correction when I appear to be straying. When I took the Tool Tuning and Dovetail courses, I was his only student and was one of two students for the Mortise and Tenon and Drawer Making courses. I have all of David's DVDs, and can highly recommend them. I might have been successful with just the videos, but the wood burner would have had more fuel in the process.

The final exam for the Tool Tuning course was to use the freshly refined tools on a rough piece of walnut and turn it into a nearly perfect piece of stock with specific dimensions. I am confident in saying I would not have been able to accomplish this on my own in the same time and with the same level of quality.

My first attempt at a dovetail joint on my own prior to the course was a total failure. My first dovetail joint in David's course was beyond my expectations (maybe his as well). The difference was the one-on-one instruction and immediate feedback. Equally important for me was the note taking, and even today I refer to my notes from each course.

In late 2019, I scheduled a 12-week woodworking course in Washington state that would start in the Fall of 2020. This was an expensive plan, with tuition, airfare, lodging, and local transportation, but I budgeted for it. Unfortunately, world events took care of that plan.  I still plan on taking a similar course in the future.


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