# Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton



## Estoril-5 (24 Nov 2016)

I'm looking to attend a course next year from either Paul or Peter. Having never attended a woodworking course I'm not sure which craftsman to go for.

This is not intended to start a war or anything, just wanted some advice.

As I'm in Birmingham I'll need to travel and require overnight accommodation for either person due to their location.

So, whose been and what would you recommend?

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## Estoril-5 (24 Nov 2016)

Apologies, was meant to say Peter Sefton but the autocorrect crept in. Sorry

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## John15 (24 Nov 2016)

Peter Sefton's 5 day Beginner's Course is very good.

John


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## transatlantic (24 Nov 2016)

I wouldn't take the risk of picking one. Do both!


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## Estoril-5 (24 Nov 2016)

transatlantic":2rd6ziax said:


> I wouldn't take the risk of picking one. Do both!


I am a man with limited financial resource (although my wife would have you believe otherwise) and hence can only pick one.

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## NickN (24 Nov 2016)

AFAIK the Paul Sellers courses are 9 day at c. £950 or 2 day at c. £300, but for a compromise and reduced accommodation expense I quite like the look of the 5 day Peter Sefton beginner course at £460 (EDIT: oops, £640).

It's a decision I too need to make, but living in Worcestershire does mean I could commute to the Sefton school, not so much for the 80 rather tedious cross country miles to Abingdon.

I have attended the one day Sellers saw and plane course, it was good for learning basic cleaning and sharpening, not so good for learning practical technique or finishing, so I did leave a tiny bit disappointed, though it was a very enjoyable and worthwhile day.


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## Estoril-5 (24 Nov 2016)

The Peter Sefton 5 day course is £640 if I'm not mistaken.

Has anyone been to the Paul sellers two day course?

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## Wizard9999 (24 Nov 2016)

Timing may be a factor. Peter has explained on here previously that the short courses only run while the long course is on holiday and not using the school. This means limited dates and long lead times. His two April 5 day courses are already full (according to his website), so that means the next available course is July next year. No idea on how far in advance Paul Seller's courses need to be booked.

Terry.

EDIT: stupid me, the course booking info on the 5 day course on Peter's site is somewhat out of date, it is still showing April 2016 and these are the course showing as full. Suggest you call to get availability if timing is a factor.


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## deema (24 Nov 2016)

Perhaps an approach is to list down what your needs and expectations are for a course, and then speak to each to see which if any matches or can offer a course that will meet your requirements. It may sound odd, but simply defining your requirements clearly and what you expect to be able to do at the end will help the trainers to determine if realistically it can be achieved with one of their courses. 

My own rule of thumb is that any course in which I benefit from 50% of the instruction is terrific. Courses must cater for all abilities and time is always dedicated to achieveing a common level of understanding for everyone attending.

I would suggest that an easy way of making an assessment is by looking for a course that requires you to make something. You will beforehand know which skills are required to make the object, and by careful selection you can ensure that not only will you have something physically of value to take away, but also the knowledge to make another and similar objects.


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## MrTeroo (24 Nov 2016)

Having been on the Paul Sellers two day course I wouldn't go again. I felt his ego got in the way of actually teaching woodworking.

I've done this, I've made this, I have pieces in the White House. Nobody else does it this way. You won't see this in any books and so on.

Plenty of wide eyed disciples in attendance to lap it up though.

I came away very disappointed. There is no denying he is a master craftsman but I didn't really want to hear his philosophies on how to raise children, how to live your life etc.

His input into the two days was limited to a few demonstration sessions around his bench. Then sending us off to repeat what he had shown.

He didn't really get involved out in the workshop, leaving that to his assistant Phil. He seemed to prefer walking around taking photographs for his blog/facebook. He is also a master of self promotion I think.


If you are a disciple of Paul Sellers you will love this course. If you want to learn woodworking you may feel short changed for £235


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## Beau (24 Nov 2016)

Not attended either but from seeing a bit of a few Paul Sellers videos and seeing the work that comes out of Mr Sefton's establishment you are not comparing like with like. Pauls work appears to be good quality carpentry were as Peters work appears to be very high quality furniture. 

What type of woodwork are you aiming to make?


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## Estoril-5 (24 Nov 2016)

As daft as it sounds I don't really know what I want and hence want to do a course to learn the basics.

Saying that ive never used chisels, planes etc, I've never done any type of joints etc.

My work has always been cutting on the mitre, jig or circular saw and then glue and screw and then fill holes. Very rough and ready stuff.

Here's some stuff I've built previously



















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## Benchwayze (24 Nov 2016)

Esto;

Who wood'a known there were no 'joints' in these examples if you hadn'ta said so? 

It's the same if you make a piece of furniture with a Kreg Jig. It will look good, and last as long as you want it to. How it's put together is irrelevant, from that point of view. If you want to woodwork for the sake of it, and do things 'properly', then take a course. I fall between your two choices. Peter is a craftsman, Paul is a craftsman, but they do produce different kinds of work; generally speaking. Paul Sellers can produce fine furniture, but he tends to teach plain and simple woodwork; some of it more like good carpentry. Peter Sefton on the other hand concentrates more on furniture. He's a he's fine craftsman, and he's quite near Brum. His shop is roomy, airy and well lit. You could commute, no probs. 

That's my choice between your two prospects; if I was making one. 

Best'o luck Esto. 

John


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## Racers (24 Nov 2016)

I can't stand Peter Sellers their is just something about him that sets my teeth on edge, I have met Peter Sefton and he's a really nice chap so no guessing where I would go.

Pete


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## NickN (24 Nov 2016)

Ok, well as one or two others have said things I didn't want to comment on because of being relatively new here, I will add to my previous posting and say that:



MrTeroo":3wzb5u8w said:


> His input into the two days was limited to a few demonstration sessions around his bench. Then sending us off to repeat what he had shown. He didn't really get involved out in the workshop, leaving that to his assistant Phil.



is very much my experience too. I had been expecting Paul to move around the classroom (there were 12 of us) critiquing, helping, giving tips, encouragement, etc. during the day - what really happened was that it was Phil doing most of the practical assistance, on his own, and as a result several of us struggled a bit to know exactly how to proceed. 

There were at least a couple of people who never exchanged a word with Paul all day after the introductory ice breaking session, which I feel is a big shame. To be fair, Paul did come over and critique my restoration and sharpening of a bench plane, but only after I went over to specifically ask.

So yes, very talented and creative chap, inspiring, even, and a very good 'demonstration' teacher, but a bit lacking in being active in the hands-on help during the course, at least, in my experience of the day. Which is where help is really needed.

I may still consider the longer course Paul does, as it would appear to be more general woodworking (which is what I need) whereas Peter Sefton is more focused on the furniture aspect, at least that's my impression. Still, Upton upon Severn is relatively so close it would be silly not to go to one of his courses at some point.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (24 Nov 2016)

Racers":3rr9p795 said:


> I can't stand Peter Sellers
> 
> Pete



Is that Paul Sellers brother? :lol:


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## Beau (24 Nov 2016)

NickN":1p3ta898 said:


> Ok, well as one or two others have said things I didn't want to comment on because of being relatively new here, I will add to my previous posting and say that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I did a year with David Savage and in all honesty he did not do much of the day to day teaching but what he did is create the standards and approach to the work. Think he would admit the some of his staff were better craftsman and probably better at some aspects of teaching so IMO it's not essential that the Boss is too hands on just that their approach and standards are instilled in their staff and subsequently the students.


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## lurker (24 Nov 2016)

Paddy Roxburgh":re1obitf said:


> Racers":re1obitf said:
> 
> 
> > I can't stand Peter Sellers
> ...




He was good in the goon show but went off as he became world famous


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## NickN (24 Nov 2016)

By the way, just seen posted today on Paul Sellers' blog:

"In January we will be hosting an event surrounding woodworking joinery and I am hoping we can fill every seat to the tune of a hundred people fascinated by woodworking. He explores past traditions and unites the important elements of accuracy and sharpness with his own insights that guarantee the perfection we strive for in exemplary joinery. The tools he uses are both modern and old. Tools that survived alongside the joinery we speak of. Paul reaches back to the best of the past, unites practices and techniques with the present and reaches forward to a new future for woodworkers."

Event is from 10.00 to 12.00, so a two hour talk / presentation. Tickets are £50. :shock:

Anyway for anyone interested the link is:

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/joinery- ... 8289108485

Probably be quite interesting but £50 ticket plus £15 fuel, well, finishing my workshop and getting equipment for it is at the moment a better use for my limited funds.


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## El Barto (24 Nov 2016)

Interesting to hear peoples' perspectives on this. 

Personally speaking, I went on a 6 week "woodworking basics" course (or some similar title) at UCL (one night a week) in 2013 and while it was informative and somewhat useful, I've found I've learnt a lot more by watching YouTube videos. It's very useful being able to come back over and over again to videos. I suppose this all depends on learning style too. Of course being able to speak to an actual instructor who is right there with you is invaluable.

But having done a course, albeit not taken by anyone near the skill level or experience of Paul or Peter, I'm more than happy to stick with the internet and spend the money on tools etc.


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## skeetstar (24 Nov 2016)

Don't want to add any further complication, but you could look at Chris tribes courses. I got him to do a custom two day for me, got plenty of value from it, he was present all of he time and on hand to demo techniques and critique results. I even got an 'acceptable' for a cross halv d joint. Only Down side is he makes you tidy the workshop at the end of each day. If you want any moe specific info, pm me a number and I will call you.


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## YorkshireMartin (24 Nov 2016)

skeetstar":2ddh8che said:


> Don't want to add any further complication, but you could look at Chris tribes courses. I got him to do a custom two day for me, got plenty of value from it, he was present all of he time and on hand to demo techniques and critique results. I even got an 'acceptable' for a cross halv d joint. Only Down side is he makes you tidy the workshop at the end of each day. If you want any moe specific info, pm me a number and I will call you.



I second this. I've done a short course with Chris. He is very attentive as a teacher, literally doing laps of the work benches and is fully open to individual assistance if you ask or if he thinks you might need it, but he's not constantly hanging around your neck either. He is highly skilled and the tools he provides are good quality. There is excellent affordable (but high quality) accommodation nearby (PM me if you want a recommendation).

I would thoroughly recommend Chris to anyone. I was absolutely knackered at the end of every day, it was packed with learning and working on your project. My intention for the evenings was to get down the pub, but I ended up going to bed early! lol

He is most certainly worth a call.


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## Racers (25 Nov 2016)

lurker":3556gsov said:


> Paddy Roxburgh":3556gsov said:
> 
> 
> > Racers":3556gsov said:
> ...




Peter is such a good name everybody should be called it  

Pete


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## Estoril-5 (25 Nov 2016)

Excuse my ignorance but I've never heard of Chris tribe, I'll google him.

Cheers 

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## cowfoot (25 Nov 2016)

> Only Down side is he makes you tidy the workshop at the end of each day



Sounds like a _proper_ apprenticeship!


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## Froggy (25 Nov 2016)

+1 for Chris Tribe. http://www.christribefurniturecourses.com/
Can't comment on Peter or Paul's courses as I haven't done them, but on personality alone I would go for Peter. But all have something to offer.


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## Benchwayze (25 Nov 2016)

Racers":3k94f4fx said:


> Peter is such a good name everybody should be called it
> 
> Pete



Even "Peter Mann"? 

Well said Pete. 
Cheers 
John


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## Glynne (25 Nov 2016)

I can't comment on Paul Sellers but I've done 2 of Peter Seftons's courses (veneering & laminating and routing) and they were both excellent. No ego and a good balance between theory and practice. You will learn a lot more than just the course content as any woodworking question you ask will be answered rather than come on another specific course. 
If you are local then I suggest you pop in and have a word with Peter (as I did) before signing up and both see the facilities and get the up to date gen on the course.


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## RobCee (29 Nov 2016)

I have been on both courses (a few years ago) and I found them both excellent, but quite different. As mentioned, Peter's was a five day and Paul's was a nine day course. 

Peter Sefton has a very approachable and friendly style, mixing between demonstration, practical work and critique/advice. He is a great teacher and obviously knows his stuff. He is also a good businessman, as there are ample opportunities to bolster your tool collection from his handy shop! Fair play Peter.
In terms of achievement, I found that the focus on the basics was just what I expected, sharpening, accuracy, using a range of tools and making different types of joints. Peter's focus on accuracy was very impressive and appealed to the engineer in me. He takes a lot of price in the standards he keeps and instils that in the students he teaches. The course itself is well paced and full of useful details. There is a good balance of classroom, demonstration and practical work. The focus changes through the week from understanding the tools, through sharpening and correct tool use to making different types of joint. The project piece you make is a letter rack, with dovetails and tenons. 
At the end of the week I had (fairly) successfully completed my project and was much more comfortable with the basics of hand tool woodworking.

Paul Sellers is a very colourful character. His views are deliberately provocative and sometimes more than mildly offensive. That said, I found him approachable and interesting, even if you sometimes need to 'tune out' some of the bluster. He is very passionate about his craft and frustrated that woodworking is coming to mean light industrial automation in peoples minds. His goal is to try to show how inexpensive and approachable the craft can be. He has furnished most of his classroom with finds from ebay and car boot sales, to back up his beliefs. He does have and use modern, expensive power tools and hand tools, but does not try to push them as the only way to do it, which is quite refreshing.
In terms of the course, there are the usual theory, demonstration, practical elements along with his stories and views on woodworking. He is less hands-on than Peter Sefton, although whenever we went up to him to ask about something we didn't understand, he took the time to answer directly or to use the question as a teaching opportunity for the group (not always a great thing for my mistake...). He does rely on his apprentice Phil to help facilitate the class, but I found this to be a good thing as you had a second opinion on things. 
The major difference between the courses was the volume of practical elements. Ignoring the difference in course length, I found the pace to be excellent, by the second day I had probably cut 20 dovetail joints, getting better every time. This rate of activity continues throughout the course. Paul is a believer in repetition as a learning tool and he is right to do so. It works well. We created three different projects over the course, a hinged box (dovetails), a small bookcase (dados, mortice and tenons) and an elegant occasional table (complex mortice and tenons). Each project took about three days to complete and we were left to apply finishes later.

I found both courses extremely valuable and interesting, although they differ tremendously in style. If you want a well paced, detail focused, precision based experience, then Peter Sefton is your go to guy. If you want an interesting, hard working, practical, mini-apprenticeship style experience, then I can recommend Paul Sellers.

Here are links to the courses if anyone wants to see the details:
Peter Sefton Furniture School5-Day Furniture Making for Beginners
Paul Sellers New Legacy School of Woodworking 9-Day Foundation Course

I can honestly say that you won't be sorry with either course, I wasn't.


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## AJB Temple (29 Nov 2016)

That was a very constructive comparative review Rob.


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## Ttrees (29 Nov 2016)

I'm surprised not to see David Charlesworth up on this list ...
If you want to focus on the finest cabinetmaking you can possibly do ...
Then I would suggest he's definitely worth looking up ...
He looks to have some machines too... for cutting veneers anyway ...
I'd have a guess he's some other machines aswell and not against using them, 
but looks to be very precise hand tool work you'd be doing ..

He has DVD's too and probably the best person for explaining anything .
He uses the English language with great skill and precision,
and manages to explain things with such precision and clarity that otherwise would be very difficult to demonstrate .
Better than many face to face .


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## Wizard9999 (29 Nov 2016)

I just thought, I had an email recently from Peter Sefton's woodworkers' workshop, on 10th December they are having a hand tool and router day. First demo of the day is Peter demonstrating hand tools. If you can why not go along, chance to see the facilities and have a chat to Peter. I am hoping to relinquish taxi duties for the kids and go myself.

Terry.


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## NickN (29 Nov 2016)

Great idea Terry, I will try and get there myself, as I need to decide where my hard earned money will be going when I do a course too.

I found the bit on the website about it: http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... and_events

"Hand Tool and Routing Day at Wood Workers Workshop

Saturday 10th Dec 2016 - 10am-2pm

Wood Workers Workshop, are having a Hand Tool and Routing Day Day, so why not visit our workshops here at The Threshing Barn and get a 10% discount on your hand tools.

It’s on Saturday 10th December, 10am-2pm, meet Peter and see professional demonstrations – we believe we have the best in-house routing demonstrations set-up in the UK, see expert demonstrations from quality imported US Brands such as WoodRiver – exclusive to Wood Workers Workshop, Incra, Woodpecker and Easy Wood Tools. There will be loads of tools for sale alongside hand tools sourced from some of the best English tool makers, plus you can get expert advice on buying tools and Peter will be demonstrating Hand Tool techniques.

Tool Day visitors all get the chance to win a £50 voucher against their Wood Workers Workshop purchase, with the prize being drawn on the day."


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## sploo (29 Nov 2016)

I recently attended Paul's 2 day course in Oxfordshire and must admit I quite enjoyed it. The point about him being hands-off in the workshop I think is valid, but I found I got some really useful tips from Phil, and when I asked Paul about a specific planning technique he was more than happy to help.

Although I'd made some of the joints used in the course, and have got a reasonable freehand sharpening technique, I do feel that I got value; in that it refined and corrected some issues. It also gave me the confidence to attempt sharpening a couple of old saws I have; with reasonable success.

You probably wouldn't leave that course thinking that you were ready to handle a big piece of furniture but it'll certainly give you a foundation in some of the important joints and how to prepare your tools to do good work. I'd apply for the 9 day course in a heartbeat if it were run (and I could get the time to attend).

I can't speak for Peter's courses, but the reference to Chris Tribe is useful; as I'm in the process of a move up north, and I'll be about 30 minutes from him.


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## RogerS (30 Nov 2016)

Wizard9999":1b1l0o4q said:


> I just thought, I had an email recently from Peter Sefton's woodworkers' workshop, on 10th December they are having a hand tool and router day. First demo of the day is Peter demonstrating hand tools. If you can why not go along, chance to see the facilities and have a chat to Peter. I am hoping to relinquish taxi duties for the kids and go myself.
> 
> Terry.



Terry beat me to it. It really is important that you have a rapport with whoever is teaching you. I've been to Peter Sefton on a couple of his short courses and I have to say that a more, down-to-earth, friendly, helpful bloke I have yet to meet. As well as making fine furniture himself for many years, Peter has also been a lecturer IIRC and so has the skills and experience at imparting his knowledge.


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## custard (30 Nov 2016)

Good thread. 

A pound invested in training is likely to yield far better dividends than a pound invested in tools or machinery. But that's not what most people want to hear.

Making straightforward rectilinear furniture from solid timber (i.e. all straight lines and 90 degree corners) is well within the capability of almost everyone and can be achieved in even a very modest and basically equipped workshop. But for every hundred people who take up furniture making as a hobby how many progress to making even O-Level standard stuff, say like this?







I'd guess less than 10%.

But if those same 100 people sunk more money into training and less into stuffing their workshops full of carp Chinese machinery I'd guess it would be well over 50%.

Their money, their time, so absolutely their choice. But I wonder if people truly realise that it's training and knowledge rather than tools and equipment that is the key to progress?


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## custard (30 Nov 2016)

Oops, my table has capsized, maybe I need IT training!


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## sploo (30 Nov 2016)

custard":39cydhkg said:


> Oops, my table has capsized, maybe I need IT training!


TBH A lot of my woodworking projects end up looking like that anyway :wink:

Your point about the value of training is a good one though; the cost vs benefit can be very useful. In particular with Paul's course, I spotted things I didn't pick up from his various videos. I'm sure that's a common experience with courses, as "being there" means you'll always notice something from a different angle, or just have the ability to pause and ask a question at a particular stage.


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## Mr T (4 Dec 2016)

Estoril-5":102l3x18 said:


> Excuse my ignorance but I've never heard of Chris tribe, I'll google him.



That's strange as you posted on a thread about my courses last month https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/funiture-making-courses-with-chris-tribe-t88883-15.html

Chris


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## Estoril-5 (4 Dec 2016)

Mr T":2imuxf86 said:


> Estoril-5":2imuxf86 said:
> 
> 
> > Excuse my ignorance but I've never heard of Chris tribe, I'll google him.
> ...


Looked through the thread couldn't find a post on there from me, although my memory isn't what it used to be.

I'm new to all this so trying to do some research before spending some cash.

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## skipdiver (4 Dec 2016)

I have never been on a woodwork course (unless you count my apprenticeship) and am not likely to but if i were to go on one i would be more inclined to the cabinet making end of the spectrum. I have watched Paul Sellars youtube videos and enjoyed them; he reminds me of a joiner i knew years ago who taught me a lot. The thing for me is that he has been called a master craftsmen by some, but if he is, then i have known a few master craftsmen in my time. He does the basics well from what i have seen of his work and is passionate about hand tools and what he calls proper woodwork but he is no better or worse than half a dozen carpenters and joiners i have worked with over the years. He has done well out of social media and good luck to him, it's better than working for a living. £50 for a 2 hour talk? Not for me.

I don't know of Peter Seftons work and maybe i should watch some of his stuff for a comparison. I would be more inclined to go on this course as it's furniture based, unless i am mistaken.

As for Peter Sellers. he's rubbish at woodwork but your comic timing would improve no end.


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## Cordy (5 Dec 2016)

Yes Peter Sellers was rubbish; his second wife was quite nice though

Britt Ekland


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## bugbear (5 Dec 2016)

Estoril-5":1q7l0zh8 said:


> Mr T":1q7l0zh8 said:
> 
> 
> > Estoril-5":1q7l0zh8 said:
> ...



Your post was made Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:03 pm, and was replied to. You thanked the replier's post.

BugBear


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## Estoril-5 (5 Dec 2016)

[/quote]

Your post was made Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:03 pm, and was replied to. You thanked the replier's post.

BugBear[/quote]

Just had a quick trawl through and see the post you're referring to (it wasn't the thread Chris posted and hence the confusion).

So, having asked about Peter and Paul, and now realising some have said Chris, have I missed any other potential tutors?

My knowledge is limited so I'm sure I have......

P.s. thanks for the introduction Chris T

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## Peter Sefton (5 Dec 2016)

skipdiver":1qypuwl6 said:


> I have never been on a woodwork course (unless you count my apprenticeship) and am not likely to but if i were to go on one i would be more inclined to the cabinet making end of the spectrum. I have watched Paul Sellars youtube videos and enjoyed them; he reminds me of a joiner i knew years ago who taught me a lot. The thing for me is that he has been called a master craftsmen by some, but if he is, then i have known a few master craftsmen in my time. He does the basics well from what i have seen of his work and is passionate about hand tools and what he calls proper woodwork but he is no better or worse than half a dozen carpenters and joiners i have worked with over the years. He has done well out of social media and good luck to him, it's better than working for a living. £50 for a 2 hour talk? Not for me.
> 
> I don't know of Peter Seftons work and maybe i should watch some of his stuff for a comparison. I would be more inclined to go on this course as it's furniture based, unless i am mistaken.
> 
> As for Peter Sellers. he's rubbish at woodwork but your comic timing would improve no end.



I have done very little on YouTube as I spend pretty much all day everyday on the bench with my students, my first real venture onto the screen will be in a couple of months time. I have been working with Artisan Media who Paul sellers was launch by a few years ago. We are currently editing a series of DVDs to be launched in the new year, watching yourself is a little weird, only time will tell how it is perceived by the public but I feel my approach is quite different from Pauls.

Cheers Peter


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## sploo (5 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":46kfars0 said:


> We are currently editing a series of DVDs to be launched in the new year ... I feel my approach is quite different from Pauls.


That's just given me a mental image of a cross between Clarkson and Colin Furze: "Right, let's lob this b*stard through the biggest thickness planer we have. POOOOWWWEEEEEER!"

Ok... maybe not; but I'm sure there'd be a market for that kind of woodworking video :wink:


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## skipdiver (5 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":3is2n4cu said:


> skipdiver":3is2n4cu said:
> 
> 
> > I have never been on a woodwork course (unless you count my apprenticeship) and am not likely to but if i were to go on one i would be more inclined to the cabinet making end of the spectrum. I have watched Paul Sellars youtube videos and enjoyed them; he reminds me of a joiner i knew years ago who taught me a lot. The thing for me is that he has been called a master craftsmen by some, but if he is, then i have known a few master craftsmen in my time. He does the basics well from what i have seen of his work and is passionate about hand tools and what he calls proper woodwork but he is no better or worse than half a dozen carpenters and joiners i have worked with over the years. He has done well out of social media and good luck to him, it's better than working for a living. £50 for a 2 hour talk? Not for me.
> ...



Thanks for that Peter. I have since watched a couple of snippets of yours and it's more the sort of thing i'd be inclined to sign up for if i felt the urge to go on a course. Paul's work is a little basic for someone like myself but i've never had the chance to do any furniture making beyond some basic stuff and would like to learn a bit more. Will look forward to your DVD's.


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## Halo Jones (6 Dec 2016)

> That's just given me a mental image of a cross between Clarkson and Colin Furze: "Right, let's lob this b*stard through the biggest thickness planer we have. POOOOWWWEEEEEER!"
> 
> Ok... maybe not; but I'm sure there'd be a market for that kind of woodworking video :wink:


Just search for Tommy Mac! There was a very funny collaboration between him and The Woodwhisperer a while back and you have never seen such different approaches to presenting and teaching styles. Marc used to have it on the Woodwhisperer website but I think he pulled it due to embarrassment!


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## andypa (6 Dec 2016)

Skipdriver, I'm no Paul Sellers fanboy, but do you know that he has two pieces of furniture in the Whitehouse? Just outside the Oval Office. Maybe that's why he's been called a Master Craftsman  
The stuff he does on Youtube is mainly for getting people started off in woodworking. He does courses for more advanced woodworkers too.





skipdiver":soscoz3n said:


> Peter Sefton":soscoz3n said:
> 
> 
> > skipdiver":soscoz3n said:
> ...


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## skipdiver (6 Dec 2016)

Fair enough andypa. I've only seen his basic stuff.


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## Westfield (6 Dec 2016)

Another vote for Chris Tribe, I have done a number of his courses and attended his evening classes for a couple of years now.

I reckon that is the best recommendation I can give for both his courses and the evening classes.

Hugh


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## NickN (6 Dec 2016)

andypa":2id32pwf said:


> Skipdriver, I'm no Paul Sellers fanboy, but do you know that he has two pieces of furniture in the Whitehouse?



Is there anyone who _doesn't_ know...? :mrgreen: 

So anyway, Paul is 80 miles each way from home, Chris is 83 miles each way from my parent's home near Penrith, and Peter is a mere 17 miles, so certainly on ease and cheapness of access Peter wins!
Having said that, there's a lot to be said for trying different teachers and styles, so I may yet visit Ilkley too (without my hat of course).


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## Wizard9999 (6 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":1z02bs56 said:


> I have done very little on YouTube as I spend pretty much all day everyday on the bench with my students, my first real venture onto the screen will be in a couple of months time. I have been working with Artisan Media who Paul sellers was launch by a few years ago. We are currently editing a series of DVDs to be launched in the new year, watching yourself is a little weird, only time will tell how it is perceived by the public but I feel my approach is quite different from Pauls.
> 
> Cheers Peter



Thanks for mentioning Artisan media Peter, to my shame I had not heard of them before and I see they have an online shop which I'll have a look at later.

I find it interesting that you are working with them on DVDs. Of late there have been a number of threads on here about whether a market for instructional DVDs still exists, or whether they have been hounded out of existence. Some have taken the position that DVD is an outdated delivery method now superseded by downloads, some have taken the view that nobody will pay for content with the vast amount of material being turned out by YouTubers.

We still buy DVDs in our family, even for our tech savvy kids who (maybe influenced by their parents) still like having something tangible. I also watch a lot of YouTube content and it is of variable quality. However, I would categorise it as entertainment and sometimes informative, but not instructional or educational. So personally I think there is a market for high quality instructional DVDs, but whether that is a market of just one I can't say. However, I guess Artisan Media are better placed to take a view and they must think there is one as well.

Anyway, best of luck with the DVDs.

Terry.


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## skipdiver (6 Dec 2016)

NickN":wq2blm5d said:


> andypa":wq2blm5d said:
> 
> 
> > Skipdriver, I'm no Paul Sellers fanboy, but do you know that he has two pieces of furniture in the Whitehouse?
> ...



I didn't know he had furniture in the Whitehouse until i read this thread.


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## Jacob (6 Dec 2016)

I'd recommend buying the Sellers book but not doing either course.
nb Sellers is weak on design (look at his Whitehouse thing :roll: ) but very good on tools, techniques, economy, and his bench is the bees knees.

PS take a look at Chris Tribe courses post1101872.html#p1101872 he mentions rods and drawings which in my opinion are the most important thing for any aspiring woodworker to get to grips with. The magic key to everything!

http://www.christribefurniturecourses.com/

Mind you these people should be paying for the publicity!

Is Dave still at it in the west country somewhere?


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## Peter Sefton (6 Dec 2016)

Halo Jones":3va6lxcb said:


> > That's just given me a mental image of a cross between Clarkson and Colin Furze: "Right, let's lob this b*stard through the biggest thickness planer we have. POOOOWWWEEEEEER!"
> >
> > Ok... maybe not; but I'm sure there'd be a market for that kind of woodworking video :wink:
> 
> ...



The mix between Clarkson and Furze would be fun but I think I would need to stand to close to the contact adhesive first. I guess I would be closer to The Woodwhisperer than Tommy Mac, walking around the workshop with a Cuban cigar and a selfie stick just isn't me.

Cheers Peter


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## Peter Sefton (6 Dec 2016)

NickN":3vdkekyu said:


> andypa":3vdkekyu said:
> 
> 
> > Skipdriver, I'm no Paul Sellers fanboy, but do you know that he has two pieces of furniture in the Whitehouse?
> ...



Pop in and say hello on Saturday if you are free, some of my current students and their work will be here in a mini exhibition and you can take a look at the workshops.

Cheers Peter


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## Mr T (6 Dec 2016)

Jacob":3na1dgb1 said:


> PS take a look at Chris Tribe courses post1101872.html#p1101872 he mentions rods and drawings which in my opinion are the most important thing for any aspiring woodworker to get to grips with. The magic key to everything!
> 
> http://www.christribefurniturecourses.com/
> 
> Mind you these people should be paying for the publicity!



Thanks for the mention Jacob, where would you like me to send the Postal Order!

Chris


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## sploo (6 Dec 2016)

Jacob":26jf07ey said:


> I'd recommend buying the Sellers book but not doing either course.
> nb Sellers is weak on design (look at his Whitehouse thing :roll: ) but very good on tools, techniques, economy, and his bench is the bees knees.


Hate to admit it, but I do think you have a point on the design front.



Jacob":26jf07ey said:


> PS take a look at Chris Tribe courses post1101872.html#p1101872 he mentions rods and drawings which in my opinion are the most important thing for any aspiring woodworker to get to grips with.


Rods is a new one on me. Any links/books/references to help my understanding?

Halo Jones - I did look up Tommy Mac. Didn't seem _that_ crazy to me, but compared to Furze we're all sane


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## Peter Sefton (7 Dec 2016)

Spool one of my students talks about rods in this article, we use them mainly when undertaking curved, angled or repetitive work but are used in stick for more by joiners for sash windows and the like.

http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... tool52.pdf

Cheers Peter


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## Mr T (7 Dec 2016)

Peter is quite right about rods being good for curved complex angled work. I am teaching my router skills course this week and students are working from a full size workshop drawing to pick up the angles for the curved legs on the course project. On my chair making course the first day is devoted to drawing up the full size drawing of the chair.

Rods, also called story sticks, specifically are like condensed workshop drawings, consisting of lay outs of the project components in the three different dimensions. This is handy when the project is large as the rods can be laid out on a strip of board rather than having to draw the whole thing life size They are very useful for fitted furniture because you can specify the space the furniture will occupy by offering the rod up to the actual position. Then you can lay out the components within that space. The cutting list can be drawn up from the rod and the components offered up to the rod to check accuracy. It is a tricky concept to explain briefly in writing!

I planned to try explaining this in the design chapter of my book. But the whole chapter was cut due to lack of space. So I will be posting the chapter on the resources page for the book on my web site.


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## bugbear (7 Dec 2016)

sploo":1pec8xcd said:


> Rods is a new one on me.



It's just a bizarre name for what most people would call a 1:1 plan.

(an actual rod is called a "story stick", obviously :roll: )

BugBear


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2016)

bugbear":3bhca7tj said:


> sploo":3bhca7tj said:
> 
> 
> > Rods is a new one on me.
> ...


The name "story stick" probably originates with stair makers. The basic starting "rod" is a literal stick or lath; one end on the floor and the other end against the edge of the floor above and marked (i.e. measuring the "storey" height).
This is then laid down and divided (with "dividers) by the number of steps to give the riser height.
Similar for the horizontal - another stick on the ground from a point perp below the face of the top riser to ditto the bottom riser, divided to give the goings.

The "rod" is a full size sectional drawing of the project, on a board, detailed as necessary so that all marks required can be taken off directly from the drawing onto the workpieces. They are laid on the rod (in a stack where multiple) and marks taken off with a pencil and a set square, without having to measure or calculate anything.
It is handy (essential?) even for simple one offs at the simplest level; say you wanted to mark 5 pieces at 8" - you mark 8" on the rod, lay the 5 pieces in a stack on the rod and mark them all in one operation. Quicker than applying a tape to each one and also eliminates many basic sources of error.


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## sploo (7 Dec 2016)

Ah. Got it. I've heard of story sticks before, but not the term "rods". I have done 1:1 drawings or mockups before.

TBH I do find Sketchup really useful these days - as you can make a model and get accurate measurements and angles. Obviously it's less convenient if you're in the garage, don't have the computer, and forgot to check something - but nonetheless it usually works for me.

Peter - good article about the stool BTW. I do like ash, so the notes on finishing it without darkening are useful.


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## Jacob (7 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":6loxmovm said:


> ...t rods i.... we use them mainly when undertaking curved, angled or repetitive work but are used in stick for more by joiners for sash windows and the like.....


It's odd that "the rod" has been largely forgotten by current woodworkers.
They are useful (essential) for any/many projects whether fine furniture or rough joinery.
Also used extensively by other crafts. The same principles at work with dress makers patterns, sailmakers, boatbuilders, steel yards and so on. 
My first experience would be with model aircraft - bits of balsa laid up and pinned over the actual plan on paper making complex shapes which would be quite impossible without "the rod", though it wasn't called that of course.


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## skipdiver (7 Dec 2016)

The guy who used to make stuff for me from time to time would use a rod. When i had him make an oak staircase he put all the measurements on a piece of timber at the house, which ties in with what Jacob says about story/storey sticks. When i asked him why he did it, he said that mistakes happen with written measurements but the marks on his stick do not lie. Making an oak staircase wrong is a costly business. It fitted perfectly, as did all the angled oak panelling that went down the wall to the side and down the hallway.


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## sploo (7 Dec 2016)

Jacob":3t7b1aea said:


> My first experience would be with model aircraft - bits of balsa laid up and pinned over the actual plan on paper making complex shapes which would be quite impossible without "the rod", though it wasn't called that of course.


Without knowing what it was called, it's something I have used myself - specifically when making a 4 meter tall replica of the Eiffel tower. Obviously the full scale story stick was full scale for the 4 meter tall version... not actual full scale :wink:


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## RobinBHM (7 Dec 2016)

sploo":hwwvqel4 said:


> Jacob":hwwvqel4 said:
> 
> 
> > My first experience would be with model aircraft - bits of balsa laid up and pinned over the actual plan on paper making complex shapes which would be quite impossible without "the rod", though it wasn't called that of course.
> ...



actual full scale might have required a somwhat large increase in your workshop roof height


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## RobinBHM (7 Dec 2016)

I thought a 'rod' was a common term in joinery.


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## sploo (7 Dec 2016)

RobinBHM":2s7vdb9z said:


> actual full scale might have required a somwhat large increase in your workshop roof height


Indeed.

Ironically it turned out to be too tall anyway - it was for a Red Bull Soap Box race, and they neglected to tell us the finishing arch was _not_ 4m tall. The results were suitably amusing.


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## screwpainting (7 Dec 2016)

_The name "story stick" probably originates with stair makers. The basic starting "rod" is a literal stick or lath; one end on the floor and the other end against the edge of the floor above and marked (i.e. measuring the "storey" height)._

As Paddy said to Mick when laying down the flagpole to measure it...

'Don't be an silly person Mick, we want to know how tall it is, not how long'


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## Knox-on-Wood (7 Dec 2016)

I would echo all the comments made about Chris and his courses.


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## Peter Sefton (7 Dec 2016)

Wizard9999":2zqtygyk said:


> Peter Sefton":2zqtygyk said:
> 
> 
> > I have done very little on YouTube as I spend pretty much all day everyday on the bench with my students, my first real venture onto the screen will be in a couple of months time. I have been working with Artisan Media who Paul sellers was launch by a few years ago. We are currently editing a series of DVDs to be launched in the new year, watching yourself is a little weird, only time will tell how it is perceived by the public but I feel my approach is quite different from Pauls.
> ...



Terry
I guess I have spent about 3 or 4 weeks working on the content since Easter, with script writing, filming and editing, with Artisan doing as much work putting everything together with editing, adding titles, music and adding images. They have been very professional and have produced a fantastic quality product - far better than we could have ever achieved on our own. I think the market has developed more towards download than DVD but it depends on the customer’s choice of medium. 

The filming is currently being edited for DVD format and will also be available as a digital download to cover both options. 

Only time will tell if there is a market or if free stuff on You Tube has it covered. I have tried to cover the areas in a similar depth and breadth as I do with my full time students but there is nothing better than being in an interactive environment with woodworkers to tease out more information. We still have to evaluate how best to bring the in depth downloads to market, the idea is to encourage woodworking and offer a high level of knowledge and experience rather than competing with the weekend woodworker and a Sony Camcorder.

As you know the short courses tend to book up well and this is a way of reaching a broader audience, this has meant I have done a few less short courses this year, we will have to see how DVD’s/downloads are received and whether we film the wood machining series next, or revert back to just workshop delivery teaching next year. 

Cheers Peter


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## El Barto (9 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":eijrcuwd said:


> Wizard9999":eijrcuwd said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Sefton":eijrcuwd said:
> ...



This sounds great - I'd definitely be interested in downloadable content. You should check out Vimeo's On Demand service - it's by far the best way to consume things like this on the web (in my opinion). The video quality and accessibility are second to none. I've bought several films and boxsets through the service and always been really pleased with it. I can't, however, speak for how commission/revenue works, but as champions of indie filmmaking I imagine it would be quite reasonable. 

Sorry for the hard sell... I just really like the service


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## Steve Maskery (10 Dec 2016)

I looked at Vimeo and it did look very good in many ways. The biggest off-put for me was the rather large number of people who complained that it cost them too much to host compared with the actual revenues they received. Sure there are the brilliant success stories, but if you look at the films that really make it, not many of them are the sort of instructional videos that we are talking about here. The number of people who would like to watch some indie blockbuster is millions of times greater than the number of people who want to watch a guy pottering about in his home workshop. The markets are completely different.
The "you can find it all for free on YouTube" mentality, which we see a lot of on here, unfortunately, means that it is very easy to spend a lot of time and not an inconsiderable amount of money producing something of excellent quality, only to find that it is difficult to sell because there is no perceived value difference between the paid-for product and the YT freebie. Everyone wants to watch good video, too few people are prepared to pay for it, in my experience.
There is a widespread view that Intellectual Property should be free at the point of consumption and that the costs of production should be paid for by somebody else. Anybody else. But not me. Get Sponsorship. Get advertising. And I'll install an Ad-blocker. But not me. 
We have to try to change this view.

I hope that Peter's DVDs are very successful. They should be, I've been to his open days and seen the quality of the work produced there. Anything that grows the market and raises standards is good in my book.

And just to be balanced, I've seen Chris Tribe's work, too. Just fantastic.

If I had the resources I would gladly book myself on both their courses.


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## NickN (10 Dec 2016)

Just a quick report back from the mini open day at Peter Sefton's Woodworking School - first time I've been there or met him.

Nice facilities, spacious enough and well laid out with a good mix of hand tools and electrickery powered machines, and friendly staff too. During the space of a short Router Lift and Table demonstration I went from "I never ever want a power router or table in my workshop" to "I really want a nice shiny Jessem Router Lift and Table, gimme, now". Well almost anyway... need to learn how to use a router first.

What I have come away with though, apart from a nearly new WoodRiver 4 1/2 plane at less than half the new price, and a heavily discounted new seconds Low Angle Block plane, is a firm desire to book in on one of the future 5 day beginners courses, once I can arrange the time off work to suit. Spoke at some length with Peter about the course content and it has a really good thorough grounding in all aspects of woodworking, including the all important (to me) practical techniques of achieving things like straight sawing and sawing the wrong side of the line, etc. I was very impressed by the standard of the work previous students have created, and also it seems to me that Peter really wants the students to achieve the highest possible standard, and learn precision woodworking with a range of both hand and machine tools.

It's not to say that I won't try and get to one or two of the other teachers and their courses mentioned here too, but the priority will definitely be to go on one of Peter's as soon as I can, even more so as it's only a 40 minute journey from me.


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## Steve Maskery (10 Dec 2016)

Result! Glad you had a good day.


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## MrTeroo (10 Dec 2016)

I really wanted to go to that but I am in Lingfield on a family occasion today :?


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## Bm101 (10 Dec 2016)

I'm thinking of running a course myself. It's called 'Loft Conversions and all associated trades'. Unlike your bog standard usual type of course, this is an opportunity! It's a chance for highly skilled tradesmen to gather together and have a warm (once the roofers have completed their course, payment and booking separate please), and friendly place to discuss skills and compete in a friendly welcoming atmosphere as to who can work to the best possible standards at the cheapest possible outlay. You will be able to learn and improve many skills from fellow tradesmen from plumbing to wiring up to plastering. If things go well there and no one catches on there will be future courses in kitchen fitting, hard landscaping and vehicle maintenance. Possibly even child minding. You'll need to provide all your own tools *and materials*. As a course host and 'registered edumacator' we will be happy to make you a cuppa (ltd to 3 per day, 1.5 if you take sugar) and change our minds constantly about Juliet Balconies half way through the build. '_Course', I mean 'Course!'
_
All applicants please register by PM asap to avoid disappointment. Are you up to the challenge!?! Well. Are you!?!

(hammer) 
You never know.


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## skipdiver (10 Dec 2016)

Add bacon butties and i'm in.


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## NickN (10 Dec 2016)

Bm101":29ldx8d6 said:


> there will be future courses in kitchen fitting, hard landscaping and vehicle maintenance.



Do we have to bring our own granite, gravel and tyres? :mrgreen:


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## Bm101 (10 Dec 2016)

I think I was quite clear.


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## NickN (10 Dec 2016)

Hmm, think I'll wait for the all-inclusive version...


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## Peter Sefton (11 Dec 2016)

Thanks for the advice on Vimeo El Barto and Steve, no hard sell on me, all advice welcome.

We plan to have them downloadable from the Knowledge page on the new tool shop website, this section is still work in progress but will be ready in time for the videos when they have completed the editing.

Cheers Peter


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## Peter Sefton (11 Dec 2016)

NickN":1ox8jgpn said:


> Just a quick report back from the mini open day at Peter Sefton's Woodworking School - first time I've been there or met him.
> 
> Nice facilities, spacious enough and well laid out with a good mix of hand tools and electrickery powered machines, and friendly staff too. During the space of a short Router Lift and Table demonstration I went from "I never ever want a power router or table in my workshop" to "I really want a nice shiny Jessem Router Lift and Table, gimme, now". Well almost anyway... need to learn how to use a router first.
> 
> ...



Good to meet you and your wife yesterday, pleased you enjoyed the open day and had chance to see the current students work and chat to the team. Hopefully we will see you on a short course next year.

Cheers Peter


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## Wizard9999 (12 Dec 2016)

NickN":1mzeq35c said:


> Just a quick report back from the mini open day at Peter Sefton's Woodworking School - first time I've been there or met him.
> 
> Nice facilities, spacious enough and well laid out with a good mix of hand tools and electrickery powered machines, and friendly staff too. During the space of a short Router Lift and Table demonstration I went from "I never ever want a power router or table in my workshop" to "I really want a nice shiny Jessem Router Lift and Table, gimme, now". Well almost anyway... need to learn how to use a router first.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the write up Nick. Very disappointingly I my visit was vetoed by SWMBO as we had friends coming in the evening and apparently me disappearing for 8 hours (about a four hour round trip from where I am) was considered unhelpful.

I was thinking about the wood machining course Peter runs, but I have started to think maybe the five day beginners course may be the way to go.

Terry.


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## Wizard9999 (12 Dec 2016)

Steve Maskery":213jdfz9 said:


> The "you can find it all for free on YouTube" mentality, which we see a lot of on here, unfortunately, means that it is very easy to spend a lot of time and not an inconsiderable amount of money producing something of excellent quality, only to find that it is difficult to sell because there is* no perceived value difference between the paid-for product and the YT freebie*. Everyone wants to watch good video, too few people are prepared to pay for it, in my experience.
> There is a widespread view that Intellectual Property should be free at the point of consumption and that the costs of production should be paid for by somebody else. Anybody else. But not me. Get Sponsorship. Get advertising. And I'll install an Ad-blocker. But not me.
> We have to try to change this view.


[my emphasis]

I guess therein lies the rub Steve. If I think back to my business school days it is little different to many products in that it is all about differentiation. The question these days is how to demonstrate that the quality of the product merits a higher price. Peter has the benefit of the reputation of his woodworking school, ie brand equity.

I do wonder how long the YouTube model will work. If I understand it YouTube pays people who upload videos that generate traffic above a certain level. But that only works if that traffic encourages advertising, which is only encouraged if that advertising converts to sales for the advertiser. I have no idea of the statistics, but I am sceptical that is is good value for the advertisers, not least because the adverts I see are often not at all connected to the content I am watching - why advertise the new Transformers movie to somebody about to watch a video on how to make a tablesaw sled?

The other thing I have noticed is that in the main it only seems to be US YouTubers that generate really big viewing numbers (well for the types of videos I watch anyway). I think Peter Parfitt is excellent, but his videos generate a tenth of the traffic of other less well made content from the US. Maybe it is just the size of the 'market', maybe it is that those from other countries are happy to watch US produced videos but Americans don't watch content not made in the US.

Not sure where this post is going, but I guess what I wanted to say is that making great content is only half the battle, I agree with you that it is getting the message out there that it is great content that is equally as hard.

Terry.


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## MrTeroo (12 Dec 2016)

Maybe Paul Sellers has the right mix.

He has lots of basic videos on youtube and one multi part slightly more complex one (workbench) then in tandem he has a website offering subscription or one off payment models for video tutorials featuring more involved projects?

The free youtube videos are the bait on the end of his hook.


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 Dec 2016)

This is a response to Terry's post.

Part of the value proposition that YT and similar web spaces bring is targeting very specific special interest groups. When I graduated I worked in TV advertising for the first 3 years of my career (ITV). There is a lucrative market called the 16-24 yr olds that used to be notoriously difficult to target (because they didn't watch Coronation St et al). That was one of the things Channel 4 was going to be good for (The Tube etc).

Modern web spaces like YT are absolutely fantastic for targeting special interest groups and not just the old elusive 16-24's but now almost literally, men over 45 who have a Myford lathe!! The possibilities in refining the granularity of targeting are absolutely off the chart.

That's one of the reasons the YT model is so successful. However, to your point about why does an advert for a movie aimed at kids appear in my video on router tables! Again, back in my ITV days, advertising is sold by delivering content on a "cost per thousand" of your target audience basis. If you advertised your beer brand, you wanted it in the centre break of the Xmas Bond movie because it attracted a huge male audience. But that spot is incredibly expensive for media buyers to purchase. What about the end break of News at Ten?? Still has beer drinkers, but not enough to warrant a spot rate for the break. So the media owners (ITV in this case) package air time so that instead of one big, sexy break like Bond delivering all their ratings (Cost per thousand), instead they're delivered in 20 less well known breaks.

I think it's clear that YT are doing just that, they're packaging their media product in a way which delivers a guaranteed amount of target audience ratings....and you don't care which content that appears in...as long as it influences enough of your target to get them buying product. So it's a bit hit and miss and when you see a transformers movie ad, you're left scratching your head, but the packaging principle is almost certainly why it's done.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2016)

Quite a few YT how-to producers offer vast amounts of material free but with invitations for voluntary contributions, sometimes just a token amount to let you into the "members" area. I've chipped in myself on banjo and guitar tutorials - not a lot, just £1 here and £2 there, via paypal, if I've thought the material was particularly good - which in fact would be about 1% of what's on offer!

Sellers has the biggest and best marketing - he has something available on every front but has avoided the temptation of selling or promoting tools which is a relief and much to his credit. He's stuck strictly to his last, which is teaching, training, information - with a very solid base in fundamentals.


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## Random Orbital Bob (12 Dec 2016)

I agree that Sellers has a superb approach to his web based marketing. There is a somewhat counter intuitive argument that the vast majority of traditional businesses just don't get. It goes something along the lines of.....you cant give too much value away. In other words, you could post 48 hours of free YT videos with all the "trade secrets" and it would actually promote your business rather than injure it. Basically, the more you give (value), the more people come back to you for more, especially in education and training. Sellers is brilliant at making people want to consume his material because he "gives" so much. That gets his brand trusted and people them want more of his brand. Traditional businesses are too locked into the old (non digital) idea that you need to be paid BEFORE you give free value. The digital age has turned that upside down. Now you need to give first, build your brand and then people will come and pay you willingly for more.

Successful internet woodworkers like Wood Whisperer, Matthias Wandel etc have understood that in spades. It's all about the marketing I'm afraid.


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## Steve Maskery (12 Dec 2016)

And that's the problem, Jacob. You value a pint of beer more highly than a "particularly good" tutorial. I'm not having a go at you personally, but you are expressing a very widely-held attitude. Online training videos, even good ones, are almost worthless, economically speaking.


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## custard (12 Dec 2016)

Steve Maskery":duj9l13z said:


> And that's the problem, Jacob. You value a pint of beer more highly than a "particularly good" tutorial. I'm not having a go at you personally, but you are expressing a very widely-held attitude. Online training videos, even good ones, are almost worthless, economically speaking.



But if you take Jacob's quid and multiply it a million times you get.....flippin' 'eck Rodney, this time next year we'll be millionaires!

And that's the point with t'interweb. Peter Sefton in this workshop isn't _scaleable_, he can take a dozen or so students and that's it. But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.


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## Jacob (12 Dec 2016)

custard":2vp8r8f0 said:


> Steve Maskery":2vp8r8f0 said:
> 
> 
> > And that's the problem, Jacob. You value a pint of beer more highly than a "particularly good" tutorial. I'm not having a go at you personally, but you are expressing a very widely-held attitude. Online training videos, even good ones, are almost worthless, economically speaking.
> ...


Exactly.
But it's got to be really good to be worth a £1 tip!


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## Peter Sefton (12 Dec 2016)

custard":33crff65 said:


> Steve Maskery":33crff65 said:
> 
> 
> > And that's the problem, Jacob. You value a pint of beer more highly than a "particularly good" tutorial. I'm not having a go at you personally, but you are expressing a very widely-held attitude. Online training videos, even good ones, are almost worthless, economically speaking.
> ...



We take a maximum of 8 students in the workshop and less when wood machining and are usually fully booked on most courses, it would be great to be able to take on more students and better for profit margins but that would lose the feeling and I believe, quality of what we offer. I have done a few free YouTube and Vimeo videos and written on various forums and in the magazines over the years. I don't have the time or interest to sit all day every day blogging and doing the whole internet thing. My passion is working with my students from behind the bench and pushing both them and myself to produce the best work we can, pulling from my experience of woodworking and furniture making. 

I was lucky in that Artisan approached me to see if we could work together to reach a wider audience showing a high level of furniture making and woodworking, hopefully giving a different approach from some of the other DVDs out on the market. Tomorrow I will be showing my students how to make the most out of their existing hand planes and tools, we could shoot a video on that but it has been done 100 times before - we have a lot of students come to the workshop who have invested in some fantastic tools but have very little idea of how to get the most out of them. I hope to be able to show how we do this, and take woodworkers to a higher level after they have achieved the basics, or show them how to achieve those higher levels from the start of their woodworking.

I hope there is a market for this not only in the UK but also across the pond - we have quite a few US based woodworkers who wish to join us in the workshop to see the English way of working and pushing the boundries of making and design - at present these woodworkers cannot gain access to UK education in our school due to UK visa red tape, hopefully this video based learning will reach different audiences ie., students who cannot come on our practical courses due to distance, time or cost.

Cheers Peter


----------



## custard (12 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":246ojzvi said:


> We take a maximum of 8 students in the workshop and less when wood machining
> Cheers Peter



I was talking figuratively Peter, trying to get across a point about the true nature of the web, I hope I haven't caused any offence.


----------



## Peter Sefton (12 Dec 2016)

custard":6nuf7vn1 said:


> Peter Sefton":6nuf7vn1 said:
> 
> 
> > We take a maximum of 8 students in the workshop and less when wood machining
> ...



No offence taken, I fully understand what you mean.

Cheers Peter


----------



## Paddy Roxburgh (12 Dec 2016)

custard":2jwrglfb said:


> But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.



Blimey, how much would an ebay no 4 cost then?


----------



## Austinisgreat (12 Dec 2016)

Paddy Roxburgh":2zmxl4z8 said:


> custard":2zmxl4z8 said:
> 
> 
> > But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.
> ...


£20.00 - £40.00 as we speak - just checked!.......... going up.....

Cheers

Andrew

ps got mine for about £7.99 couple of years back :shock:


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

Austinisgreat":12dv6qrw said:


> Paddy Roxburgh":12dv6qrw said:
> 
> 
> > custard":12dv6qrw said:
> ...


What - you mean Sellers has talked the price up?
Seems to be £20 ish buy it now. Cheap.

What's different about Sellers is that you don't feel his courses are really a front for selling tools and kit - he concentrates on basic skills and knowledge, which, let's face it, is what any person wanting to do a course most likely needs. Nobody is going to find out how to make fine furniture in 5 days. 5 years more like.


----------



## Random Orbital Bob (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":2k6k8q3a said:


> What's different about Sellers is that you don't feel his courses are really a front for selling tools and kit - he concentrates on basic skills and knowledge, which, let's face it, is what any person wanting to do a course most likely needs. Nobody is going to find out how to make fine furniture in 5 days. 5 years more like.



Agreed. Sellers hasn't appended add-on businesses around his hub of education and training. He has one agenda, which is explicit, to give classes, whether they're classroom based or by other forms of media. What I think he has got very very right is expert use of the internet to promote his capability. Lets face it, it's not just the future, it's the now for reaching any decent size of audience. He has superbly blended the look and feel of a craftsman's workshop, even down to all the cliché's of beard, Northern accent, multiple planes in the background view, with the most exciting form of modern mass media, the web. His presentation style is so ridiculously at ease that he IS your woodwork teacher personified, or your Granddad, all rolled into one. You can almost smell the wood shavings. In this country we are woefully short of these new kinds of "stars" whereas across the pond there are many who grabbed the opportunity with both arms, to such an extent that they're now sponsored as the tool vendors realise how lucrative and focused their target audience reach has become. Here, we seem to bleat on over and over about how "it's all free" on the internet and there is no decent contract any more between buyer and seller. Rubbish! it's just different.

Life is a game I'm afraid and every now and then a massively disruptive technology comes along that upsets the apple cart, fundamentally changing the rules. The smart, agile thinkers adapt and embrace the new, finding new routes to market, learning what the new rules are through trial and error. Those that don't adapt, get pruned out by economic forces, precisely like evolution in nature. Cruel is not an unreasonable adjective to describe this process, but make no mistake, it's happening......and fast.


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## AJB Temple (13 Dec 2016)

Personally I have no problem with a tutor selling tools - as long as they are quality tool that will support the techniques taught. Practically all of us like and enjoy new tools, so the tutor is pushing at an open and unresisting door. Why should a third party shop get the benefit? We can tell when we are getting a hard sell, and we are all adults and can make our own minds up. I actually see a tool shop attached to a tuition centre as a plus point! 

I don't suppose many people in the tuition business put You Tube videos up out of altruism.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

AJB Temple":26fu7d1y said:


> ... I actually see a tool shop attached to a tuition centre as a plus point!.....


Perhaps OK as long as they are not leading the gullible into buying unnecessary flash gear like veritas chisels (PMV 11 :lol: ) and all the other well know shiny tat - turning woodwork into a shopping experience. 
Instead they should be setting an example and teaching common sense about tools - which is what Sellers does extremely well.


----------



## iNewbie (13 Dec 2016)

And he's off...


----------



## sploo (13 Dec 2016)

iNewbie":1r941yqh said:


> And he's off...


To be fair I do agree with Jacob on the unnecessary flash gear point (though I don't have a view about any specific tools).

What I like about Sellers is that he'll call out something as bad when it is bad, but he's not in the least bit elitist about tools - if something's cheap and good he'll tell you about it and use it.

In his Woodworking Masterclasses videos I've often noticed he'll be using the Aldi chisels or the Silverline #4 plane he recently tried out. I think he's rather fond of his Ashley Isles chisels at the moment (who can blame him) but I like his unpushy approach when it comes to tools. Basically, practice and skill matters more.


----------



## iNewbie (13 Dec 2016)

sploo":3mrbl07e said:


> iNewbie":3mrbl07e said:
> 
> 
> > And he's off...
> ...



If someone wants to buy "flashy gear" I'll leave it up to them - its their money and decision. I don't just assume they're gullible - Jacob got taken in and followed the Guru's and now we never hear the last of it... 

Sellers cabinet is loaded with posh tools, why, because he doesn't have an issue with using them because they're a tool. And yes I've seen his recommendation for The Iles chisles and he's not to proud to recommend Veritas either.

https://paulsellers.com/2011/08/looking ... y-veritas/


https://paulsellers.com/2014/05/planes- ... work-with/


> *
> 8 May 2014 at 11:01 pm*
> 
> "I used the Veritas block plane and their bevel-up jack plan extensively on the White House pieces I designed and built for the Permanent Collection of the White Hose five years ago."



This guys not the Virgin Mary. 

His use of the tools in his video may be for some old romantic notion - like buying Woden because his mentor had one. Who knows. I think we ALL know buying the best tools available doesn't make a craftsmen. 

If this forum had a bunch of Guru's trying to shift the top brands I'd probably understand where Jacob is coming from. As soon as one uber company is mentioned out pops the Garlic/Holy Water and Cross...


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

iNewbie":3jzzvic4 said:


> ....
> If this forum had a bunch of Guru's trying to shift the top brands I'd probably understand where Jacob is coming from. .....


That's very much how it was only a few years back. Still is a bit!


----------



## Peter Sefton (13 Dec 2016)

You have been to at least one of my open days Jacob back in the day of Classic Hand Tools, Workshop Heaven or Intelligent Workshop to name but three of the many other woodworking companies that have attended the shows along with a fair few different demonstrators. None of them paid to be here and no member of the public has ever been asked to pay to come along, not sure if any one twisted your arm to buy tools or too enjoy the refreshments put on to raise money for our nominated charity. 

After a few years of advising students where they could buy tools from we started a tool shop run from here, this gives the students a chance to try before they buy a range of tools. We also show students how to make the most out of the tools they already have. We have just this morning flattened ground and sharpened some students old Stanley and a new set of Marples. We will be working on a students faithful block plane after tea break to sort out the sole and re grinding the blade that is chipping from cutting wood. 

The students will then move onto sharpening the AI in the tool boxes and my Narex and PMV11, if they decide to buy any of these with a student discount or go on Ebay and buy old stuff thats fine by me. I feel happy they have experience different levels of tools and they can make their own minds up if they wish to buy new tools or not.

I work with my students every day and stay friends with them as they progress as woodworks for many years, I am very happy with the advice we give out to help woodworkers.

Maybe I should change my approach possibly holding a morning like Paul has planned, what is it £50 per head maximum 100 woodworkers for a 2 hour session, not a bad way of earning 5K for a mornings work.

Sorry my approach has offended you somehow, never mind I will have to live with that.

Cheers Peter


----------



## sploo (13 Dec 2016)

iNewbie":2mrvwu14 said:


> Sellers cabinet is loaded with posh tools, why, because he doesn't have an issue with using them because they're a tool. And yes I've seen his recommendation for The Iles chisles and he's not to proud to recommend Veritas either.


Nothing wrong with mentioning tools you like. I have spoken with Paul in person about this, and he made the point that they try to avoid doing videos with the specific and obviously branded tools - to avoid giving the impression that you must have a particular product in order to succeed.

It's inevitable though that a person interested in a field will have the "desire" pieces that they really want; especially stuff they coveted as a youngster but couldn't afford.

As for this forum though; I've not been a member for that many years, but I can't say I recall coming across people pushing particular tools or brands (even from the members who are also vendors).


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":1g4sk0ar said:


> ....
> Sorry my approach has offended you somehow, never mind I will have to live with that.
> 
> Cheers Peter


Offended? Not me squire! :lol: 

However I do think that the various vendors of tools and services do risk running the gauntlet and can expect a fair bit of scepticism on forums like these, which are for the benefit of woodworkers, who may or may not choose to end up as their clients. 
"Critique" is the word and the more the better!
Has Paul Sellers ever posted here I wonder? Probably got more sense!


----------



## MrTeroo (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":2g5v02sa said:


> Has Paul Sellers ever posted here I wonder? Probably got more sense!




I don't know you Jacob, but you have a very inflammatory style of writing? Maybe you can't see it?

Could you possibly read through your posts a couple of times from the viewpoint of third parties before clicking submit?

I mean this in good faith with no malice


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

MrTeroo":hk1d86vg said:


> Jacob":hk1d86vg said:
> 
> 
> > Has Paul Sellers ever posted here I wonder? Probably got more sense!
> ...


Nope can't see it. Must try harder!


----------



## MrTeroo (13 Dec 2016)

Fair enough.


----------



## Wizard9999 (13 Dec 2016)

MrTeroo":37yfej9d said:


> Jacob":37yfej9d said:
> 
> 
> > Has Paul Sellers ever posted here I wonder? Probably got more sense!
> ...


I see you are pretty new Teroo (no offence intend, just observation). It won't take you long to realise Jacob simply does this as some sort of twisted sport. Best to ignore as witout oxygen a fire will die.

Terry.


----------



## Mr T (13 Dec 2016)

MrTeroo":1tkpalsf said:


> I don't know you Jacob, but you have a very inflammatory style of writing? Maybe you can't see it?
> 
> Could you possibly read through your posts a couple of times from the viewpoint of third parties before clicking submit?
> 
> I mean this in good faith with no malice



The forum wouldn't be any fun without the Curmudgeons Mr Teroo.

Chris


----------



## Wizard9999 (13 Dec 2016)

I always find these debates interesting to a point.

I understand the point that to ensure people are not excluded from woodworking it is helpful that there are people demonstrating how second hand and / or inexpensive tools can be fettled and give great results in the hands of the skilled. It is also very helpful that there are people out there pointing out which new cheaper tools are not the best quality when compared to older, better made second hand items.

But are we saying higher quality, more expensive new tools are of poor quality?

Take my friend Jim for example. He worked for years in the City and made a few quid, enough that he could retire in his mid-forties and now only does a bit of part time work because he finds it interesting and keeps his brain ticking over. Jim has become interested in woodwork in the last few years and has been buying some tools. Jim has come to woodwork later in life and wants to spend his time trying to develop skills so that he can make some things he is proud of before he gets too old, he doesn't want to spend any more time than he has to fettling tools if it means he has less time to do woodworking. So Jim nips out and buys some Clifton, Lie Nielsen and Veritas tools. He spends a few thousand pound, but to Jim that is not a lot of cash as back in the day that would buy him and a few City chums a decent lunch with wine.

Should Jim be excluded from woodwork because he has the means to buy decent tools straight off the bat?

Terry.


----------



## lurker (13 Dec 2016)

Its a shame Jacob does seem to intentionally wind folks up the wrong way, because his underlying message is good.

You don't need to spend a fortune on boutique tools to do good woodwork.
If you look around this website its easy to be taken in by the pseudo science of sharpening. 
There are no short cuts to skills, but with the right technique many are easy to aquire ............but they can't be bought.
Where hand tools are concerned the old ways are frequently the best.

He likes Sellers (can't stand his delivery myself) cos he sings a similar song. 

Sorry if you feel I have put words in your mouth Mr Grimsdale :wink:


----------



## lurker (13 Dec 2016)

Wizard9999":xmxgj3hf said:


> I always find these debates interest to a point.
> 
> I understand the point that to ensure people are not excluded from woodworking it is helpful that there are people demonstrating how second hand and / or inexpensive tools can be fettled and give great results in the hands of the skilled. It is also very helpful that there are people out there pointing out which new cheaper tools are not the best quality when compared to older, better made second hand items.
> 
> ...



Thats no problem at all, in fact I bet most of us are like Jim (some of us even sharing his name if not his wealth). However your mate is combining two hobbies, tool collecting and woodwork. They are frequentlly found together but are mutually exclusive. 
Jim will soon learn that boutique tools will need some maintainance so "fettling" is unavoidable.


----------



## Wizard9999 (13 Dec 2016)

lurker":vfgc5t3h said:


> Wizard9999":vfgc5t3h said:
> 
> 
> > I always find these debates interest to a point.
> ...



Not to quibble but I did say Jim wanted to minimise fettling, not eliminate it and the reason for minimalising it is to give him more time to work with wood. If Jim buys a shiny new Clifton no4 I suspect he will be able to use it a bit sooner than if he buys a rusty fifty year old Record, even if after the necessary work the Record can be a great tool.

Surely to suggest anyone who buys expensive tools is by definition a tool collector is exactly the type of exclusion I suggested was unreasonable?

Terry


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## MrTeroo (13 Dec 2016)

Mr T":x500vclm said:


> The forum wouldn't be any fun without the Curmudgeons Mr Teroo.
> 
> Chris




Maybe, but having arrived at this forum after leaving another one (different subject matter) that was like the wild west, it was a breath of fresh air to see polite conversation being the norm.

And a Secret Santa! Unheard of on an internet forum  

Maybe I'm too sensitive after the last forum.

I really enjoy this forum btw.


----------



## lurker (13 Dec 2016)

MrTeroo":3uv4g4uw said:


> [
> I don't know you Jacob, but you have a very inflammatory style of writing? Maybe you can't see it?
> Could you possibly read through your posts a couple of times from the viewpoint of third parties before clicking submit?
> I mean this in good faith with no malice



He can see it 
He has certainly been banned enough times :lol: 
Jacob is an old git, I'm pretty sure he will take that as a compliment, as is intended.


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## sploo (13 Dec 2016)

Wizard9999":17i3bgxg said:


> Take my friend Jim for example. He worked for years in the City and made a few quid, enough that he could retire in his mid-forties and now only does a bit of part time work because he finds it interesting and keeps his brain ticking over. Jim has become interested in woodwork in the last few years and has been buying some tools. Jim has come to woodwork later in life and wants to spend his time trying to develop skills so that he can make some things he is proud of before he gets too old, he doesn't want to spend any more time than he has to fettling tools if it means he has less time to do woodworking. So Jim nips out and buys some Clifton, Lie Nielsen and Veritas tools. He spends a few thousand pound, but to Jim that is not a lot of cash as back in the day that would buy him and a few City chums a decent lunch with wine.
> 
> Should Jim be excluded from woodwork because he has the means to buy decent tools straight off the bat?
> 
> Terry.


The problem is that at some point Jim is going to have to sharpen the tools, and likely fettle them to get them working properly (so new or old they're going to have to be taken apart and adjusted).

My (relatively modern) Stanley #4 (given as a gift) had always been an object of curiosity. With a bit of help from others I learned how to start using it, but it wasn't until I picked up my first old 'un from eBay that I realised I had to cross the bridge of stripping one down (in order to restore it). I wouldn't think for a second about taking a plane to bits now if required, but as a newbie I wouldn't have had the confidence to do it on my newer Stanley - let alone a Clifton (as I'd have been worried about c*cking something up).


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

Wizard9999":2xv8hx90 said:


> ..... If Jim buys a shiny new Clifton no4 I suspect he will be able to use it a bit sooner than if he buys a rusty fifty year old Record, ....


It's not likely that a novice would be able to do much even with a perfect hand-plane and it'd need sharpening a few times before he'd got the hang of it - in other words probably quite quickly on a par with the old Record.
I've got a Clifton 4. Don't use it much it so much heavier than a Record. Also the metal is soft and it picked up a scratch from a nail, early on. Doesn't matter - just a bit irritating on a supposedly top of the range tool.
OK so they are sharp out of the box but that's only for the first hour of their active lives. But if that's the issue it'd make more sense and save a lot of money to have your Record blades professionally sharpened


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## MikeJhn (13 Dec 2016)

Hi Guys

I have not read through this thread, but just wanted to give some positive insight into Peter Sefton and his work ethos, I recently bought a JessEm router table guide set from him and in conversation mentioned my problem Arthritic hands, Peter sent me a Micro Jig push block free of charge to see if it helped, (big plus 1) he also noted that I had a problem with an XX router extension, we discussed this to ensure that I was setting it up correctly, the conclusion was that it is faulty and Peter immediately issued a refund, now this is not so far out of the ordinary until you realise I bought this over two years ago and Peter has honoured his commitment to this customer far beyond what I have come to expect (big plus 2) Obviously this is the standard of service you can expect from this honourable retailer.

My Gast is Flabbered.

Mike


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## meccarroll (13 Dec 2016)

Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.

Regarding the tool speculation, if you want to produce quality woodwork it's far easier using quality tools, just my take after 40 years as a professional woodworker.

Mark


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":wubwy8g8 said:


> Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.
> 
> Regarding the tool speculation, if you want to produce quality woodwork it's far easier using quality tools, just my take after 40 years as a professional woodworker.
> 
> Mark


Dunno I think the setting up and sharpening is more important than the "quality" (within reason).
I certainly would agree with Sellers that a set of silverline chisels will do just as well as a set of LV (PMT 111 :lol: ) at 50 times the price the price.
https://paulsellers.com/2014/08/which-c ... d-you-buy/


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## Wizard9999 (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":22xalmlx said:


> meccarroll":22xalmlx said:
> 
> 
> > Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.
> ...


But...
https://paulsellers.com/2016/10/uk-chisel-like/


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

I fettled a set of the Aldi ones, reducing the lands, taking all the machining marks off, flattening the faces and regrinding them on a finer wheel before making and fitting a set of London pattern handles in padauk for last years S/S. They were as good as virtually anything I own (- and surprisingly converted me to LP handles, as I could not see the fascination before). Unfortunately the ungrateful recipient couldn't be bothered to post any pictures, or even acknowledge their receipt.
The next time I see a set, I'll do myself some (I need more like I need a hole in the head  ). The Lidl ones are near identical but have hornbeam handles. I appreciate that not everyone wants this work, but there is no better way of learning tool maintenance and what to look for in an expensive tool. The most I've ever paid for a plane is £30 for a Stanley No.8 with a full Sweetheart iron and the most for a chisel about £5 for some box handled Wards - I doubt there is much on the market to come near them. Pay what you wish for your tools, good luck to you - but you really, really don't need to.


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

phil.p":lv60nk0x said:


> .... Pay what you wish for your tools, good luck to you - but you really, really don't need to.


I paid for a brand new Clifton 4 (£250 ish? can't remember) out of interest to see if you get value for money at the top end. You don't - it's a delusion.
They don't hold their value either - that's another popular delusion.


----------



## meccarroll (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":3684a4qo said:


> meccarroll":3684a4qo said:
> 
> 
> > Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.
> ...



All woodwork tools with a blade will need sharpening/honing at some time or another irrespective of whether they are new old etc and the quality of the tool will make very little difference to that point. However the interval of sharpening will generally depend upon the quality of the blade and on this point quality is very important.

If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion.

I read your summary regarding using a "Rod" and could not have put it any better myself but in respect of quality tools it's a no brainer.

Mark


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

"If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion."
Not all low priced tools, maybe, but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not.


----------



## iNewbie (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":1ptymfjs said:


> meccarroll":1ptymfjs said:
> 
> 
> > Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.
> ...




Just incase you mised Wizards post :mrgreen: : 

"_I think we all want a chisel that looks good too._"

https://paulsellers.com/2016/10/uk-chisel-like/

I don't mind his pushing of product he likes as he doesn't have blinkered vision - unlike a disciple of his...


----------



## lurker (13 Dec 2016)

phil.p":3gqeb307 said:


> but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not.



I've given up telling my wife this.


----------



## meccarroll (13 Dec 2016)

phil.p":29ea4hcm said:


> "If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion."
> Not all low priced tools, maybe, but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not.



I made the comment based on 40 years experience of using hand woodwork tools, but of course you see this as a wild assumption. 

Mark


----------



## NickN (13 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":3lsdz7bp said:


> Maybe I should change my approach possibly holding a morning like Paul has planned, what is it £50 per head maximum 100 woodworkers for a 2 hour session, not a bad way of earning 5K for a mornings work.



Peter, if you're still reading this thread by now (!) then just to say, please don't change a thing (though I know you weren't serious anyway). While I do admire the Paul Sellers approach to the use of budget and affordable tools, and the seeming absence of sponsorship by brands, as well as his excellent videos and blog, I got a slight feeling on his course earlier this year that the 'online celebrity status' might just possibly be going to his head a little - and as I mentioned in an earlier post, this caused him to lack involvement with the students (of which there were too many, 13 is imho too big a number) and concentrate too much on... well, not sure really, as Phil took a lot of the photos as well as providing most practical assistance to the class. Or he of course might just be getting a bit tired too with all the work he does. Either way the effect isn't the best for aspiring woodworker students.

Speaking personally, if I pay good money to attend a class run by respected craftsman Teacher X then I really want to be taught and helped along by Teacher X, not Assistant Y.

Hence I will be doing a 5 day beginners course with yourself, as I feel far more confident that this is what I will get.


----------



## MrTeroo (13 Dec 2016)

NickN":2wv5iq42 said:


> Speaking personally, if I pay good money to attend a class run by respected craftsman Teacher X then I really want to be taught and helped along by Teacher X, not Assistant Y.




+1


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## Wizard9999 (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":3ubcadsy said:


> phil.p":3ubcadsy said:
> 
> 
> > .... Pay what you wish for your tools, good luck to you - but you really, really don't need to.
> ...



In which case then I'll give you £50 for it Jacob, deal?

Terry.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":1birl6za said:


> phil.p":1birl6za said:
> 
> 
> > "If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion."
> ...



I've used them longer than that , but by the bye. I didn't say it was a wild assumption, I said the converse was no wilder. No offence meant, I was just pointing out that cheap isn't always bad and expense doesn't always mean top quality. Diminishing returns are of course another discussion.


----------



## meccarroll (13 Dec 2016)

phil.p":d74ycozp said:


> meccarroll":d74ycozp said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":d74ycozp said:
> ...



Yes but seem to be quoting a point I never made Phil.p:.........


> Not all low priced tools, maybe, but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not



In my experience Silverline, are cheap low grade tools that are inferior to more expensive propriety brand quality tools and I can say this with first hand experience.

If anyone has any reason to disagree and has any outlandishly expensive hand tools that they would like to swap for a brand new siverline equivalent then please do PM me, I'll be only too glad to make an exchange  

Mark

PS Phil.p No offence taken and I hope none taken by you either.


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

Wizard9999":3l4m9hp5 said:


> Jacob":3l4m9hp5 said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":3l4m9hp5 said:
> ...


No I'm keeping it - as a reminder to avoid being taken in by hype!


----------



## Wizard9999 (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":3280wjpr said:


> Wizard9999":3280wjpr said:
> 
> 
> > In which case then I'll give you £50 for it Jacob, deal?
> ...


Yeah, sure Jacob very believable :lol:


----------



## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

I wouldn't presume for a moment that a cheap tool would out perform an expensive one until I had tried it, no matter what I read about it. Those Aldi/Lidl chisels I have - I wouldn't say for a moment that they are equivalent to Ashley Isles etc. , but for day to day use they are undoubtedly as good as (or maybe better than) some mainstream brands at four or five times the price. Silverline of course is utter crrap, as are many other brands - but there are manufacturers and more so marketers who do the odd line that is very good value ... but that is back around the circle, there are upmarket ones that occasionally market a dog. This is one reason why we seek advice from sites such as this. 
Curiously, mentioning Silverline in particular I have an acquaintance who told me the only plane he owns that is dead flat with sides at true right angles is a Silverline. I daresay the iron is a piece of lead, though. :lol:


----------



## woodbrains (13 Dec 2016)

phil.p":37223t44 said:


> I wouldn't presume for a moment that a cheap tool would out perform an expensive one until I had tried it, no matter what I read about it. Those Aldi/Lidl chisels I have - I wouldn't say for a moment that they are equivalent to Ashley Isles etc. , but for day to day use they are undoubtedly as good as (or maybe better than) some mainstream brands at four or five times the price. Silverline of course is utter crrap, as are many other brands - but there are manufacturers and more so marketers who do the odd line that is very good value ... but that is back around the circle, there are upmarket ones that occasionally market a dog. This is one reason why we seek advice from sites such as this.
> Curiously, mentioning Silverline in particular I have an acquaintance who told me the only plane he owns that is dead flat with sides at true right angles is a Silverline. I daresay the iron is a piece of lead, though. :lol:



Hello,

Is his try square and straight edge Silverline, by any chance?

Mike


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

phil.p":3g7na6og said:


> I....
> Curiously, mentioning Silverline in particular I have an acquaintance who told me the only plane he owns that is dead flat with sides at true right angles is a Silverline. I daresay the iron is a piece of lead, though. :lol:


On the other hand -I had an "Ess Vee" 4 plane which was total garbage - except the blade which was perfectly OK and fair quality. I bought it (£5 or so) for the same reason as the Clifton - to bracket the target. Top value is still anything by Record.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

Hello,

Is his try square and straight edge Silverline, by any chance?

Mike
--------------
He's an engineer by training. No. :lol:


----------



## Bm101 (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":21gs5k6r said:


> Wizard9999":21gs5k6r said:
> 
> 
> > OK so they are sharp out of the box but that's only for the first hour of their active lives. But if that's the issue it'd make more sense and save a lot of money to have your Record blades professionally sharpened


But sharpening by hand is the only way to go?!? 
I'll give you £55 notes for the clifton Jacob. That's a fiver more than Terry. You could buy 2 records for that pal.
Thanks to all your advice I reckon I could sharpen it too by now.  
Seeing as you're buying premium tools as a test, here's one you might like bud. Goal post dollies. Makes shifting them even easier,


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

Bm101":18mhmvaz said:


> Jacob":18mhmvaz said:
> 
> 
> > Wizard9999":18mhmvaz said:
> ...


What it's worth (as a plane) and what it'd sell for are two different things. £250 inc postage?
nb I don't need any more records I've got more than I need thanks.


----------



## Peter Sefton (13 Dec 2016)

NickN":260k5jxi said:


> Peter Sefton":260k5jxi said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I should change my approach possibly holding a morning like Paul has planned, what is it £50 per head maximum 100 woodworkers for a 2 hour session, not a bad way of earning 5K for a mornings work.
> ...



Thanks Nick don't worry I have no plans to change the way we do things in my workshop, we have a format that we feel works well for our students.

You may have met one of my two workshop assistants over the weekend, Paul is a very talented furniture restorer and french polisher with forty plus years of experience in furniture, his main duty is keeping the workshop spic and span and making sure everything is ready for the students. The only teaching he does is for the last hour or so of my beginners course showing the guys how to shellac seal and wax their weeks work. He also advices any of our full time students if they have restoration projects.

Sam my younger assistant wasn't around on the weekend, he is an Alan Peters award winning young designer maker and a very talented young man, he shows my full time students Sketch Up and helps me prep timber as well as assisting in the tool shop, his afternoons are spent improving his own skills whilst working on commissioned work for his own clients, this is good for his personal development and gives the other full time students an insight into their first few years making in the real world.

I do employ other craftsmen to teach specialist subjects with my full timers, Mark Hancock for wood turning, Quentin Smith for marquetry, Chris Yates for routing (he was demonstrating on Saturday) and Bob Jones for polishing. Sean Feeney joins us once a week for design and make and assists with business studies as he is still a bespoke furniture maker.

http://www.markhancock.co.uk

http://www.qjsmarquetry.co.uk

http://www.seanfeeneyfurniture.co.uk

I am more than happy to bring other craftsmen into the workshop if I feel they can offer the students something up and above my own teaching, although I taught all these skills for years on both C&G and Btec national diplomas. What I won't do is pass the students onto a less experienced maker to free up more time for my own endeavours, this isn't what they paid for.

Hope to see you in the future, cheers Peter


----------



## Peter Sefton (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":1nhnhywx said:


> meccarroll":1nhnhywx said:
> 
> 
> > Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.
> ...



Setting up and sharpening is critical and easier with quality tools, a good craftsman can do reasonable work with cheap tools, but better work with quality kit, a beginner will always be at a disadvantage but quality tools will help, poor quality tools and a lack of understanding is going to be hard going for any new woodworker.

I would be very surprised if you can cut your London patten dovetails with Silverline chisels (never used them myself) but I would guess they have large lands and don't make one smaller than 6mm. How would they cope cleaning up a shoulder line 1.5 - 2 mm wide between sloping dovetails, My young assistant Sam uses Narex chisels but borrows my chisels when doing very fine work like this. I feel anybody that thinks all these chisels are the same either hasn't done such fine work or is kidding themselves and possibly others.

Cheers Peter


----------



## sploo (13 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":305zioly said:


> I do employ other craftsmen to teach specialist subjects with my full timers, Mark Hancock for wood turning, Quentin Smith for marquetry, Chris Yates for routing (he was demonstrating on Saturday) and Bob Jones for polishing. Sean Feeney joins us once a week for design and make and assists with business studies as he is still a bespoke furniture maker.


A definite +1 for Mark Hancock. As a novice turner I'm not well placed to judge someone's talent (though I liked what I saw in a demo I attended). Top bloke too - very approachable and happy to answer dumb questions from a novice.


----------



## El Barto (13 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":2qvcwqav said:


> NickN":2qvcwqav said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Sefton":2qvcwqav said:
> ...



Sounds like you've got a great setup there Peter and kudos on the ethic/s behind it all.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (13 Dec 2016)

Brings to mind what my father used to say - people say I'm clever ... they're right. I'm clever because because I make sure I employ people who are cleverer than me.


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":10nb3hez said:


> ...
> I would be very surprised if you can cut your London patten dovetails with Silverline chisels (never used them myself) but I would guess they have large lands and don't make one smaller than 6mm. How would they cope cleaning up a shoulder line 1.5 - 2 mm wide between sloping dovetails, My young assistant Sam uses Narex chisels but borrows my chisels when doing very fine work like this. I feel anybody that thinks all these chisels are the same either hasn't done such fine work or is kidding themselves and possibly others.
> 
> Cheers Peter


It's really odd how DTs are so misunderstood. 
The whole point of what is doubtfully called "London Pattern" dovetail is that it's the very easiest one to do. Single kerf on one side is guide for the kerf on the other - invariably done free hand, including the positioning, though dividers would be used on posher work. 
Remove the waste with any small cutting implement filed to fit - Silverline chisel if that's all you've got, bit of old saw blade, a nail if you are desperate. No need to spend £50 on PMV 111 whatever that is :lol: 
It's the easy beginners DT for light work, and very common.
Small is not necessarily "fine" in any particular sense.

LN Narex LV chisels only go down to 1/4 or 1/8" etc so you are going to have to file up a bit of broken knife or something for 1.5 to 2mm - but you'd take out most of the waste with the saw itself.


----------



## woodbrains (13 Dec 2016)

Jacob":qurs7g0x said:


> Remove the waste with any small cutting implement filed to fit - Silverline chisel if that's all you've got, bit of old saw blade, a nail if you are desperate. No need to spend £50 on PMV 111 whatever that is :lol:
> It's the easy beginners DT for light work, and very common.
> Small is not necessarily "fine" in any particular sense.



Hello,

Small is definitely not fine, when you do them quite obviously. But they should be and if you think a bit of filed metal or a nail is anywhere near a substitute for a fine landed chisel for doing such work, then it explains a lot about your perceptions of what fine work is. You obviously haven't seen it/ don't do it. But still you feel the need to preach about how others do it!

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (13 Dec 2016)

woodbrains":2tre36am said:


> Jacob":2tre36am said:
> 
> 
> > Remove the waste with any small cutting implement filed to fit - Silverline chisel if that's all you've got, bit of old saw blade, a nail if you are desperate. No need to spend £50 on PMV 111 whatever that is :lol:
> ...


I've done a few - but more relevant - over the years I've looked at a lot of old work of varying quality.
The preaching comes from the "fine furniture" lot, who have invented a whole mythology about how difficult things are and how special (and numerous!) the tools required.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

PS you won't find a "fine landed chisel" 1.5 to 2mm wide. Quite the opposite - the sides of such a small DT would be very steep so the bevel would only need to be slightly less i.e. not "fine" at all.
What you will find is that "The old timers who just had firmer chisels would simply grind an angle at the leading square edge of their chisels. It was a steeply tapered bevel,which tapered out at about 1/2" long. This gave enough clearance right at the cutting edge end to clean out dovetails" (from another forum).
What you will also find (in old work) is that all DT sides are over-cut to a greater or lesser extent. Hardly visible on top class work, wildly exaggerated on cheap work (it's faster).
This makes removal of the waste much easier - the corner is already cut out.
I doubt the pros ever fiddled about with coping saws either - I guess (but I don't know) that they did a starter cut vertically (several on a wide DT) to cut up the waste and make it easier to remove.
On a single kerf DT this would be the starter cut, followed by the two angled side cuts in the same kerf. Very quick and easy whilst the saw is in your hand. 

Not sure about the word "land" with reference to the bevel of a chisel - is it old and established? Is it just the flat bits left untouched by shaping? e.g. a triangular section would have no lands at all?


----------



## woodbrains (14 Dec 2016)

Hello
Perhaps you should offer courses yourself, Jacob, and teach the trad dovetail, like these:





Whilst courses of today will be teaching these:





I don't think classes on gappy, overcut dovetails will have many subscribers, though.

You can't keep harking back to bygone ages, Jacob, buyers if fine furniture won't tolerate anything but that which approaches perfection. They simply won't buy it, and at the price it costs, you can't blame them. Besides, student on these courses want to be able to do what the best modern makers can (demonsterably) do. We have moved on, we have improved. We no longer dovetail, piece worked drawers, where speed caused sloppiness, and this was tolerated. 

Incidentally, the land on a chisel is the bit left at the edge, if the bevel has not been ground fine enough to reduce it to an acceptably thin enough level. Look at Ashley Iles chisels for an example if excellent BE chisels. Very narrow chisels still have bevels and should not have lands, even though the bevels are much less acute, they still fit into dovetail sockets without bruising the tails.

Mike.


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

I don't see that as "moving on" at all - it's just a different market. 
Overworked and expensive stuff has always been made for the well-off, from the earliest times - there's nothing "contemporary" about those DTs. though they have become somewhat fetishised in recent years! But it's a shrinking market - IKEA turns over more!

TBH I really like "ordinary" stuff such as in your top picture. It's from and it's for ordinary people. It's the mainstream centre of the craft tradition. It's much more interesting than a lot of the meretricious over-worked posh stuff.

PS and there's nothing "antique" about the other DTs - they are just cheaply made.


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## Racers (14 Dec 2016)

Their you go, we shouldn't get thoughts above out station, ordinary people like us don't deserve fine stuff.


Pete


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

Racers":2h8ql0co said:


> Their you go, we shouldn't get thoughts above out station, ordinary people like us don't deserve fine stuff.
> 
> 
> Pete


Not sure what point you are trying to make Pete.


----------



## woodbrains (14 Dec 2016)

Hello,

Ironically, it is because of IKEA and the like that 'ordinary' stuff, as you put it, is not done anymore. It doesn't matter how fast and sloppy I can make dovetails, I can't crank out stuff cheap enough for people to buy in preference to IKEA. Besides they look bad too, so even less chance of selling. So you make them fine by taking a bit more time and hopefully there is a slim market who will buy high quality. 

Incidentally, you are wrong about those dovetails being for ordinary stuff for ordinary people. I've seen enough Cuban mahogany chests of drawers, with flame veneered drawer fronts, cock beads and drawer slips etc. for a high end Victorian market, with sloppy, overcut dovetails. It was just tolerated in those days, it simply isn't now. I have never seen antiques (perhaps very, very rarely) with dovetails as fine as those done as a matter if course by modern makers. You are backing a losing argument if you think we are ever going to go back to work like you seem to prefer.

For this reason, I think Peter Sefton's would be a more useful course to do. Or Chris Tribe for that matter, I know him personally and know him to be a fine craftsman. Perhaps you should sign up and find out how it is done these days.

Mike.


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## Cheshirechappie (14 Dec 2016)

Jacob":2cr194oa said:


> Racers":2cr194oa said:
> 
> 
> > Their you go, we shouldn't get thoughts above out station, ordinary people like us don't deserve fine stuff.
> ...



We often have the same problem with your posts, Jacob!


----------



## Racers (14 Dec 2016)

Jacob":17uq7k2r said:


> Racers":17uq7k2r said:
> 
> 
> > Their you go, we shouldn't get thoughts above out station, ordinary people like us don't deserve fine stuff.
> ...




According to you we shouldn't have fine quality tools or do fine quality work.

Maybe we should go back to the stone age, no point in advancing and striving to make things better.

People like nice things and like to make nice things, it seems like you have a complete reversion to improvement.

Pete


----------



## iNewbie (14 Dec 2016)

Come on Pete, when they made Cast Crucible Steel we all should have stuck with flint. Thats where we all went wrong.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

woodbrains":2caaovut said:


> ..... Perhaps you should sign up and find out how it is done these days.
> 
> Mike.


 :lol: We all know "how (some people) think it is done these days" we are told over and over again - but we don't have to follow fashion if we don't want to. For some people it seems to be a moral crusade.

Perhaps you should keep your eyes open a bit and you would see that there is a huge middle ground between IKEA and, say, J Makepeace. It takes a bit of skill (design skill mainly) and ingenuity to find a niche between the cheapest and the most expensive but a huge number of people are in there doing it. 
You could join them woodbrains, instead of sitting on the sidelines muttering disapprovingly and trying to "correct" the others. Get a life!


----------



## sploo (14 Dec 2016)

We do seem to have rather strayed from the original topic (of courses).

I am actually moderately interested in the current discussion, and I even think there might be merit in a thread that documented examples of old and new work (with contributions from both sides of the argument). Obviously it would always be possible to find good or bad examples of both old and new work, so sample size is important.

It does occur to me that antique furniture is likely to have used glues that may have perished, wood that has moved, and pieces that in general have taken use and abuse - so is it always valid to look at old pieces and assume they were sloppy from day one? Don't answer that - in this thread at least; let's take it to a new thread.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

One thing you can say for sure about old work is that it lasts!* That's something to take note of.

* explainer (in case woodbrain doesn't get it :roll: ); if it didn't last it wouldn't still be here.


----------



## sploo (14 Dec 2016)

Jacob":1wp66aoy said:


> One thing you can say for sure about old work is that it lasts!* That's something to take note of.
> 
> * explainer (in case woodbrain doesn't get it :roll: ); if it didn't last it wouldn't still be here.


But you don't know that new work _doesn't_ last... unless you get a time machine :wink:


----------



## Racers (14 Dec 2016)

Jacob":3hjn8lw7 said:


> One thing you can say for sure about old work is that it lasts!* That's something to take note of.
> 
> * explainer (in case woodbrain doesn't get it :roll: ); if it didn't last it wouldn't still be here.




You can only say some of it lasts, or they would be massive piles of old furniture every where.

Pete


----------



## bugbear (14 Dec 2016)

Racers":16nvic3t said:


> Jacob":16nvic3t said:
> 
> 
> > One thing you can say for sure about old work is that it lasts!* That's something to take note of.
> ...



Indeed - the extant old furniture is a self selecting sample. The sample is further skewed by expensive furniture being well looked after.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

Racers":bj2dkiju said:


> Jacob":bj2dkiju said:
> 
> 
> > One thing you can say for sure about old work is that it lasts!* That's something to take note of.
> ...


Yes you've nearly got it Pete!


bugbear":bj2dkiju said:


> ...
> Indeed - the extant old furniture is a self selecting sample. The sample is further skewed by expensive furniture being well looked after.
> BugBear


Yes and no. 
Valued (i.e. liked, well used, popular, etc) furniture is well looked after but this isn't the same as expensive. You see a lot of careful repairs done to quite ordinary stuff. My favourites are the little blacksmith made iron plates spanning broken joints in windsor chairs - sometimes beautifully done and quite inconspicuous - more like orthpaedic surgery than woodwork!.
On the other hand there was masses of meretricious expensive stuff made by Chippendale and everybody, much of which has disappeared without trace - except in the catalogues.


----------



## Racers (14 Dec 2016)

Jacob":1ufu9hh0 said:


> Racers":1ufu9hh0 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1ufu9hh0 said:
> ...




Masses of Chipendale? masses! I don't think so, care to come up with any numbers? evidence? or is it just a wet finger in the air job as usual.

Pete


----------



## bugbear (14 Dec 2016)

Racers":1jw1qv9v said:


> Jacob":1jw1qv9v said:
> 
> 
> > Valued (i.e. liked, well used, popular, etc) furniture is well looked after but this isn't the same as expensive. You see a lot of careful repairs done to quite ordinary stuff. My favourites are the little blacksmith made iron plates spanning broken joints in windsor chairs - sometimes beautifully done and quite inconspicuous - more like orthpaedic surgery than woodwork!.
> ...


There are more surviving Rolls Royces than Austin Allegros...

In fairness to Jacobs point, some Rolls Royces that were made have indeed been scrapped. :roll: 

BugBear


----------



## Peter Sefton (14 Dec 2016)

Chippendale and his highly skilled craftsmen made top notch furniture, it was so desirable that local carpenters and joiners tried to replicate it, but often made a pair quality version. This was called Country Chippendale, this shows something which is still evident today, carpenters may not understand the quality of fine furniture or how to replicate it (not surprising it's a different trade). I am sure a lot of country Chippendale has gone most original remains.

Thus using a nail to cut fine dovetails rather than a sharp chisel, the finished job will show the difference even if Jacob cannot see it. I go back to my original point you can't cut fine dovetails with a fat cheap chisel.

As an aside when I was a journeyman maker working with experienced craftsmen from Gordon Russell's when they made a really good quality job they would always say "it's like a job in the town" it's a reference back to Chippendale makers from London town, as we country boys are just as good!

Cheers Peter


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

There's a popular myth that town makers were copied in the country in an inferior sort of way.
If anything it was the other way around. Chippendale, Hepplewhite, Sheraton all were country furniture makers - drawn to town by the money. Paxton was a country boy and a gardener. Mackintosh was Glaswegian. And so on.
Richard Bebb goes on about it a lot - pointing out that there was imaginative and creative design and making going on all over the place - not just a feeble diaspora from the cities, and conversely, so-called "country" furniture (i.e. simple and utilitarisn) was just as likely to be made and bought in towns.
The Regional Furniture Society writes at length along the same lines.

PS re dovetailing with a nail - not to be recommended but would be possible if you were desperate, and nobody would know the difference (as long as you kept it sharp).


----------



## bugbear (14 Dec 2016)

Jacob":34pf5lfw said:


> The Regional Furniture Society writes at length along the same lines.


They might be the teensiest bit biased. :lol: The lowliest hand in an auction house can spot "Country Furniture" a mile off.

And Richard Bebb is making a living selling the stuff - we all know Jacob's view of how trust worthy a seller's opinion is of what he's selling.

BugBear


----------



## woodbrains (14 Dec 2016)

Hello,

I dunno what tripe you read Jacob, but innovation in art and design had always taken place in large towns. How else could it be? People where in close proximity, their workshops, factories, studios, pubs. This is how cross pollination of ideas took place. This is where Paris, New York, London etc, could keep in touch via ports and shipping, and art movements could evolve. Design filtered through to provincial towns and the countryside, several decades after the initial buzz flourished in the major towns. Yes, decades later, it was this slow. You see things like Art Deco architecture in provincial towns being built as de-rigour in the 1950's long after it was the height of fashion in big cities, and even then it was tinged with the local traditions that were hard to drop, or misunderstood as being of the style.

No one is saying country makers were any less skilled, but they simply were not at the cutting edge if innovation and their clients not as well heels as city dwellers. Does this ring true with anyone here, though no real excuse since we have the internet to inform us what is going on!

Mike.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (14 Dec 2016)

From my studies of furniture history (which are admittedly not formal), it seems that from the birth of 'fine' furnituremaking in the 18th century, the vast majority of both designers and makers worked in London (even if their origins were elsewhere), with a few exceptions such as Gillows of Lancaster. I think that's in part because the techniques were brought in by immigrants from France and Holland, both of which were far in advance of England in matters woodworking (and much else) in the 17th century, and they tended to gravitate to where the market was - generally where the money was. More recently, since about the 1960s the picture has reversed, with the best designer-makers being mostly outside London.

The picture for furniture of good, ordinary and cheap qualities is, of course, far more mixed. A few provincial firms tried their hands at copying 'fine' furniture (or interpreting from catalogues such as Sheraton and Hepplewhite), but whilst they were highly competent at good or ordinary wares, their lack of market meant they had little opportunity to develop the skills of 'fine' cabinetmakers.

It's worth bearing in mind that the market for 'fine' furniture has always been miniscule in comparison to the markets for good, ordinary or basic wares.


----------



## woodbrains (14 Dec 2016)

Cheshirechappie":3gzldjna said:


> It's worth bearing in mind that the market for 'fine' furniture has always been miniscule in comparison to the markets for good, ordinary or basic wares.



Hello,

True, but it was the driving force for the changes in design and fashion. If it wasn't for the few wealthy clients wanting/coveting the new, we would not have such a wealth of design movements with all the varied forms and styles.

As to the market for fine furniture being miniscule, it might just be the only market left for handmade things. The ordinary stuff is well catered for with mass produced stuff, or imported tat.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

bugbear":bnktn44h said:


> .....The lowliest hand in an auction house can spot "Country Furniture" a mile off.....


But they can't necessarily tell where it was made. Demand for plain utilitarian furniture was as high if not higher in the towns.


----------



## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

woodbrains":1e1dxtg3 said:


> ...
> No one is saying country makers were any less skilled, but they simply were not at the cutting edge if innovation....


Chippendale, Sheraton, Hepplewhite all began their innovative careers in the north. 
The arts n crafts movement was born as a reaction to the city (Great Exhibition 1851) and was wide spread in Britain and eventually international.
The story is not at all as simple as the popular model. And it's a lot more interesting.


----------



## meccarroll (14 Dec 2016)

Found this published by the: *VICTORIA & ALBERT MUSEUM OF ART AND DESIGN*

It may be reasonable to assume that the information is as accurate as any you will find:

*Thomas Chippendale*


Thomas Chippendale was born in Otley, Yorkshire, 1718 and died in London in 1779.

Chippendale was an only child, born into a family of Yorkshire carpenters. Details of his early career are unknown but in 1748, aged 30, he moved to London where he set up as a cabinet-maker, married and had a large family.

In 1754 he published The Gentleman and Cabinet-Maker’s Director, a pattern book that was to secure his position as one of the most eminent cabinet-makers of the 18th century. Chippendale’s workshop was on St Martins Lane, the newly fashionable centre of the furniture making trade in London. From there he undertook many large-scale furnishing projects for grand houses throughout Britain.

Breakthrough
In the 18th century there was an increasing demand for luxury goods. Chippendale’s Director provided for this market with 160 engravings of fashionable furniture designs.


Title page of the 1754 edition of The Gentleman and Cabinet-Maker's Director. NAL no. III.RC.N.10
Published by subscription, The Director was an instant success. It was reissued in 1755, and again in 1762 with additional plates in the new Neo-classical style. Subscribers included aristocrats and cabinet-makers. Shrewd publicity brought Chippendale many lucrative commissions. His firm supplied all manner of furnishings and household equipment.

So influential were his designs, in Britain and throughout Europe and America, that ‘Chippendale’ became a shorthand description for any furniture similar to his Director designs.

Design model
Furniture designs had been occasionally published before 1754, but Chippendale’s Director was the first publication on such a large scale. It included designs in the ‘Gothic, Chinese and Modern Taste’ – the last meaning French Rococo style.


A Cabinet-Maker's Office, unknown artist, about 1770, Britain. Museum no. P.1-1961
Not all furniture supplied by Chippendale exactly followed his published designs. Many were simpler pieces for bedrooms and private spaces. Patrons could also combine Director elements to create bespoke commissions. For Dumfries House in 1759 only 12 of the 50 items ordered came from The Director.

Despite his success, Chippendale never received a significant royal commission, unlike some of the other cabinet-makers in St Martin’s Lane.

Business model
Chippendale’s business grew quickly. By 1755 his workforce comprised 40–50 artisans, including cabinet-makers, upholsterers and carvers. Chippendale would not have made furniture himself – or even managed the workshop. His role probably involved making designs, cultivating clients and promoting the business.

Cash flow was a constant problem as clients rarely paid promptly. Chippendale went into partnership with the wealthy Scottish merchant James Rannie and later the accountant Thomas Haig. Their business acumen complemented Chippendale’s entrepreneurial flair. In 1776, Chippendale’s son, also Thomas (1749–1822), took over the firm. Continuing financial difficulties and then Haig’s death led to closure in 1804.


Hope you enjoyed the read, from the Museum. LINK: http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t ... ippendale/
Mark


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## woodbrains (14 Dec 2016)

Hello, 

The big three all ended up in London to start businesses, I wonder why? Oh yes, the clients, the innovation and the inspiration were all there and not the countryside or provinces. 

Arts and crafts movement was originated by city intellectuals. The stuff made was sold almost exclusively in the major towns or to London business men who furnished their country estates with it. The ethos of designer craftsmen in the A & C movement was too difficult to realise and in fact most stuff became factory made and sold by the likes of Liberty of London. In the USA apart from some very marginal communities, as almost all mass produced in the big metropolises. 

Cities was were it was at.

Mike.


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2016)

woodbrains":24vdzw2y said:


> Hello,
> 
> The big three all ended up in London to start businesses, I wonder why? Oh yes, the clients, the innovation and the inspiration were all there and not the countryside or provinces.....


They started and got established in the country. They weren't inspired _from_ London - the opposite - they took their innovations _to_ London. 
Arts and Crafts was actually a repudiation of London influence (Great Exhibition 1851) - the opposite of "innovation and inspiration" from London. London attracts talent (it's the money) but doesn't always generate it.

Incidentally - Chippendale and most makers had non of the moralistic zeal of the A&C gents. They would make anything - coffins, painted furniture, ordinary stuff, probably wheel barrows! They were businessmen. All that self-righteous A&C moralising came later.


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## Bm101 (14 Dec 2016)

Economically I've always pictured that time (perhaps at all times) to be one of great divide but perhaps particularly then. You've got your dead poor who were quite literally a step or two away from death and there's graveyards full of unnamed souls to prove it. Of course there would have been graduations of poverty but I always see it as fairly minimal graduations up to any one who had to work for a living. I'm sure there were a class of working people who were relatively well off in general terms but then you had this huge unfathomable leap to the gentry. I wonder if anyone can work out the equivalent cost of a piece of Chippendale furniture in todays prices?
I'm aware I'm over simplifying and I don't want to use terms like middle class etc because it's too easy to make assumptions. My rambling point is, if only 3 % (wild guess!) of the population could afford really fine furniture maybe that's why there is so little around but it's relatively so well preserved. If it's stuck in a house that's been owned by the same family for 9 generations it's not subject to the same challenges of the rest of us now is it? It's got maids to clean it, it's generally in a warm and secure place, the mistress of the house might write an occasional letter from a bureau.... It's not being shunted on to the back of a wagon because you have to move house. Or getting damp and cold in winter because times then were Generally Pretty Drafty. Or being used on regular basis because there's 8 kids in the house and it's a chest of drawers and you have More Pressing Concerns even if you're well off enough to even _afford_ basic furniture.

Just a thought.


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## bugbear (14 Dec 2016)

Jacob":24d1yps4 said:


> woodbrains":24d1yps4 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



You were either in London, or (if you were Good Enough) you moved to London. London was the centre of excellence, the goal.

People outside London copied (or tried to) the excellence that was in London.

BugBear


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2016)

bugbear":36k8371r said:


> Jacob":36k8371r said:
> 
> 
> > woodbrains":36k8371r said:
> ...


There were very rich traditions alive and well in the rest of Britain which were nothing to do with London. It's a pity that so many are blind to this they don't know what they are missing!
The Great Exhibition 1851 was a display of "London excellence" so gross that it was repudiated by designer/makers of the time and gave rise to the Arts &Crafts movement. The building itself (Crystal Palace) was designed by a Derbyshire gardener (Paxton) who had developed the design/technology at Chatsworth with no influence from London at all.
These were two highly influential pillars of modernism and were both a reaction against London conservatism and commercialism.
Art Nouveaux arrived in Scotland before London (Rennie Macintosh), and so on. Scotland had close historical links with France from a long way back.
The other great ports had cultural links with Europe and the rest of the world, independently of London. 

Times change. It's odd that Arts n Crafts has degenerated to such an extent that fussily overworked dovetails are regarded as it's greatest legacy - the modern sine qua non of excellence! :lol:


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## bugbear (15 Dec 2016)

Jacob":1sryff30 said:


> bugbear":1sryff30 said:
> 
> 
> > People outside London copied (or tried to) the excellence that was in London.
> ...



You cite some good exceptions to a general rule. I was talking about woodwork though, so Paxton's (wonderful) cast-iron-and-glass work doesn't really advance the discussion. I think concepts like "designer/maker" came a little later than 1851.  

BugBear


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## woodbrains (15 Dec 2016)

Hello,

The countryside did have its traditions, no one is blind to those, but the fact is, little innovation came from the country. As you said 'tradition' i.e. the same working methods from the same ( locally available) materials, perpetuating the same locally developed forms, past down from father to son to son........( Mother to daughter if you include sewing, cooking, etc, ) nothing changed for hundreds of years, except very slowly. It was not and could never be innovation, but slow evolution. It takes money and the desire for something different to prompt innovative ideas and this was only available in the cities. No one would be interested in the country nor have the means to pay for it. Country makers had to move to cities or else they would be making the same old stuff heir granddad did and probably more often repairing it

Didn't Macintosh, and just as likely his wife see Art Nouveau on their trips to .......Paris? I think Paris might just count as a city.

Mike.

Glasgow was not exactly a small backwater, either, plenty of craftsmen and a world class shipping centre.


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2016)

bugbear":13lzv2ox said:


> Jacob":13lzv2ox said:
> 
> 
> > bugbear":13lzv2ox said:
> ...


Cast iron, WOOD and glass, just to be pedantic. Designer/makers kicked off in the paleolithic era as far as I know.


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2016)

woodbrains":3l9gmvg5 said:


> ..but the fact is, little innovation came from the country.


Nonsense. Not worthy of comment! You need to get out more "woodbrains" :lol:


> Didn't Macintosh, and just as likely his wife see Art Nouveau on their trips to .......Paris? I think Paris might just count as a city.
> 
> Mike.


But it wasn't London and Glasgow was ahead of London.


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## meccarroll (15 Dec 2016)

As someone mentioned Paris (France) the extract below is an example of what was happening in France at the time of Thomas Chippendale.

What is interesting is the mention of furniture making in a much wider sense covering a wider sphere of woodwork than we tend to think of today. And how the craftsmen of the day were seen to be employed under the then Guild system. Coach building was probably a very highly skilled craft at the time but not mentioned much today as a furniture craft.



*The Golden Age of French Furniture in the Eighteenth Century*

Some of the most beautiful and refined furniture ever made, displaying the highest level of artistic and technical ability, was created in Paris during the eighteenth century. Much admired by an international clientele, it was used to furnish residences all over Europe and also influenced fashions of cabinetmaking outside France.

Furniture-Making Guild (Corporation des Menuisiers)
French furniture of this period was the collaborative effort of various artists and craftsmen who worked according to strictly enforced guild regulations. Established during the Middle Ages, the guild system continued with little change until being dissolved in 1791 during the French Revolution. The Parisian guild to which the furniture makers belonged was called the Corporation des Menuisiers. It had great influence on the education of furniture makers by requiring at least six years of training that led to a high degree of technical specialization and ensured a high standard of work. First an apprentice spent three years or more in the workshop of a master furniture maker, followed by at least as many years as a journeyman. In order to become a master, a journeyman had to prove his competence by making a chef-d’oeuvre, or masterpiece. Once that was successfully completed, he could open his own workshop only if a vacancy existed (the number of masters allowed to practice at one time was strictly controlled by the guild, as was the size of their workshops) and he had paid the necessary fees. The dues were lower for the sons of master cabinetmakers than for people from outside Paris who had no relatives in the guild. From 1743 onward, it became the rule to stamp every piece of furniture that was offered for sale with the maker’s name. An additional stamp, JME (for jurande des menuisiers-ébénistes), would be added once a committee, made up of elected guild members who inspected the workshops four times a year, had approved the quality. Any furniture that failed to meet the required standards of craftsmanship was confiscated.

Menuisiers and ébénistes
The Corporation des Menuisiers was divided into two distinct trades, that of the woodworkers who made paneling (boiserie) for buildings and coaches, and that of the actual furniture makers. The latter can be subdivided into menuisiers (joiners), responsible for the making of solid wood furniture such as console tables, beds, and chairs, and the ébénistes, from the word ébéne (ebony), makers of veneered case pieces. Most of the menuisiers were French born, often members of well-known dynasties of chairmakers, and were located in or near the rue de Cléry in Paris. By contrast, a large number of Parisian ébénistes were foreign born, many of whom worked in the Faubourg Saint-Antoine. Although not forbidden, it was rare to combine the professions of a menuisier and an ébéniste.

In addition, there were two other groups of furniture makers active in Paris, working outside the framework of the guild. The so-called royal cabinetmakers, who were given special privileges and workshops either at the Louvre palace, at the Manufacture Royale des Meubles de la Couronne at the Gobelins, or in other buildings owned by the crown. Royal cabinetmakers were free from guild regulations. The second group consisted of the so-called artisans libres, or independent craftsmen, many of them foreigners who sought refuge in certain “free” districts of Paris outside the guild’s jurisdiction.

Daniëlle O. Kisluk-Grosheide
Department of European Sculpture and Decorative Arts, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

October 2003

THE LINK: http://metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ffurn/hd_ffurn.htm

Mark


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## OM99 (15 Dec 2016)

back slightly more on topic Paul Sellers reduced his price for his talks to £30

Oli


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2016)

Yes the scope of wood working was huge. It's easy to forget - even when I worra lad railway coaches and wagons were largely timber and we still had horse drawn delivery vehicles made of wood, though wooden wheels were antique even then. Motor vehicles had wooden frames. Farm machinery like balers and threshers, factory plant like silos, were timber. 
It's very odd that the fussy dovetail brigade seem to think they are/were top of the trade but they were (and still are) a tiny fraction of what is being made.


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## NickN (15 Dec 2016)

OM99":2wxnmz0m said:


> back slightly more on topic Paul Sellers reduced his price for his talks to £30
> 
> Oli



Interesting. Still, with 170 miles of driving involved, not worth doing for just a two hour talk. £30 today got me a 300/600/1200 watt oil filled radiator for my freshly insulated shed, plus a protractor spirit level at Lidl, imho probably a better use of the money.


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## iNewbie (15 Dec 2016)

Aldi were out of their deluxe stollen. I was well pithed.


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## OM99 (15 Dec 2016)

NickN":3oegp47m said:


> OM99":3oegp47m said:
> 
> 
> > back slightly more on topic Paul Sellers reduced his price for his talks to £30
> ...



Never said it was good value just stating that he reduced his price, but still a bit steep for 2 hours talk imo.

Olivier


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## NickN (15 Dec 2016)

And I didn't think that you had suggested it was good value either, so no criticism intended. Just a statement that I still think it's not worth it, too.


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## El Barto (15 Dec 2016)

With respect fellas, taking the driving/distance out of the equation, £30 for a two hour talk seems pretty reasonable to me. Maybe you'll come away with some new insight, maybe not, but it seems the price you believe a highly skilled and respected woodworker's time is worth is unrealistic. And that goes for anyone of that calibre, not just Paul Sellers. My two cents anyway.


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## MatthewRedStars (15 Dec 2016)

£30 seems fine. In line with most pass times for two hours entertainment. Football, bigger gigs, theatre etc


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## woodbrains (15 Dec 2016)

Hello,

I wonder how much it costs to stop him from talking? I'm starting a fund.

Mike


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## NickN (15 Dec 2016)

El Barto":3g83yuaz said:


> With respect fellas, taking the driving/distance out of the equation, £30 for a two hour talk seems pretty reasonable to me. Maybe you'll come away with some new insight, maybe not, but it seems the price you believe a highly skilled and respected woodworker's time is worth is unrealistic. And that goes for anyone of that calibre, not just Paul Sellers. My two cents anyway.



With equal respect in return, I happen to think that a highly skilled woodworker's time is worth considerably more than £15 an hour, and I would and have happily paid closer to £25 an hour for practical tuition. But two things make this event a non-starter for me, one, it's at least six hours of my time and three gallons of fuel used, making that a far higher cost, and two, it's not practical based but a talk (and with the work I do I'm pretty bad at staying awake for talks and lectures, give me hands on any day). 

Actually I'm a bit surprised he hasn't offered a paid for live streaming version, given how internet savvy his organisation appears to be.


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## El Barto (15 Dec 2016)

NickN":3nkqji8k said:


> El Barto":3nkqji8k said:
> 
> 
> > With respect fellas, taking the driving/distance out of the equation, £30 for a two hour talk seems pretty reasonable to me. Maybe you'll come away with some new insight, maybe not, but it seems the price you believe a highly skilled and respected woodworker's time is worth is unrealistic. And that goes for anyone of that calibre, not just Paul Sellers. My two cents anyway.
> ...



Well I did start by saying taking the driving/distance out of the equation so...

Live streaming would be cool.


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2016)

Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
Maybe it's all gone to his head - I hope he's not trying to be a bit of a pop star! Won't be throwing my knickers!

Woss appened to our Dave he used to post a lot promoting his courses - sharpening etc. has he retired?


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## Beau (15 Dec 2016)

Jacob":q8vmab71 said:


> Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
> Maybe it's all gone to his head - I hope he's not trying to be a bit of a pop star! Won't be throwing my knickers!
> 
> Woss appened to our Dave he used to post a lot promoting his courses - sharpening etc. has he retired?




Looks like he still has plenty on http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/course-dates/


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## Mr T (15 Dec 2016)

To get back to the OP! I have been wondering why questions about courses often seem to be put in a binary format, Paul or Peter. Actually there are lots of courses out there. Here are a few providers off the top of my head:

John Lloyd Sussex http://www.johnlloydfinefurniture.c...ture-making-courses/furniture-making-courses/
Marc Fish Sussex http://www.marcfish.co.uk/cabinet_making_tuition_short.htm
David Charleswoorth Devon http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/
David Savage Devon http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/short-courses/
Waters and acland Cumbria http://www.watersandacland.co.uk/furniture-school/furniture-making-courses/#ctc
West Dean Sussex https://www.westdean.org.uk/study/s...ter_category=Woodworking+and+furniture+making
Wood Workshop Cumbria http://www.woodworkshop.co.uk/
Chippendale School East Lothian http://www.chippendaleschool.com/cabinet-making-courses/short-furniture-courses/

Also some chancer in Ilkley offers courses. That's nine providers and I'm sure there are many more. Does anyone have any comments on any of these other providers rather than just Peter and Paul.

Chris


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## Jacob (15 Dec 2016)

Beau":3bynf6dg said:


> Jacob":3bynf6dg said:
> 
> 
> > Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
> ...


Sharpening weekend, £250: I presume that includes accommodation, all meals, free beer, massage, use of the pool and the billiard room and 24 hour room service?


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## Beau (15 Dec 2016)

Jacob":1uikv9ie said:


> Beau":1uikv9ie said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1uikv9ie said:
> ...



If I had the skills and reputation to run course at those rates I would. We are in this to make a living after all.



From the boiler thread get the impression plumbers can earn 1k in a few days. Whats that from a few years experience and a few thousand pounds worth of tools and a van? Maybe 10000 guys and guys equally as good? 

The likes of David have a big premises with 10s of thousands pounds of kit and all the bills that go with a building. Plus vast experience and the ability to share it and one of the best craftsman in country and begrudge him earning a few quid?


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## meccarroll (16 Dec 2016)

Jacob":1tjrh0if said:


> Beau":1tjrh0if said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1tjrh0if said:
> ...



I agree Jacob £250 does at first sight seem a lot of money to learn how to sharpen your tools and I would not like to have to pay it myself (I do the job for a living) but it is a pretty standard charge for two days tuition by a privately run school. These charges are very much in line with what a local college might also charge but privately run schools often take fewer students on each course so there is more time for one to one learning during the course. It is just the norm Jacob, these courses are all pretty much the same price. I think the main thing to look for is a detailed breakdown of the course content, class size and any additional costs that might be charged.

Mark


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## iNewbie (16 Dec 2016)

Jacob":1lq95yay said:


> Beau":1lq95yay said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":1lq95yay said:
> ...



Lathering you up in 3-in-1 might cost a bit more on the massage front.


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## sploo (16 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":59y12xna said:


> I agree Jacob £250 does at first sight seem a lot of money to learn how to sharpen your tools and I would not like to have to pay it myself (I do the job for a living) but it is a pretty standard charge for two days tuition by a privately run school. These charges are very much in line with what a local college might also charge but privately run schools often take fewer students on each course so there is more time for one to one learning during the course. It is just the norm Jacob, these courses are all pretty much the same price. I think the main thing to look for is a detailed breakdown of the course content, class size and any additional costs that might be charged.
> 
> Mark


It's also worth working those numbers through in terms of subtracting costs (heating, lighting, kit, public liability insurance, the fact it probably includes VAT - which the teacher doesn't get to keep, and then business related taxes).

If you earned £100 per day (after all costs and taxes), worked 5 days per week, and factored in losing 4 weeks to holiday and illness, that's only £24,000 per year. Hardly rolling in it. Of course, you'd have to then charge a lot more than £100 day in order to make £100 per day after costs. Even more if you weren't earning every week day of every week.




iNewbie":59y12xna said:


> Lathering you up in 3-in-1 might cost a bit more on the massage front.


Happy finish sir?


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## Mr T (16 Dec 2016)

sploo":2l1165ji said:


> If you earned £100 per day (after all costs and taxes), worked 5 days per week, and factored in losing 4 weeks to holiday and illness, that's only £24,000 per year. Hardly rolling in it. Of course, you'd have to then charge a lot more than £100 day in order to make £100 per day after costs. Even more if you weren't earning every week day of every week.



That's a reasonable calculation Sploo. Most course providers do not teach solidly all week every week. Preparation for a course can take a few days to start with, then there is time taken developing new courses and all the numerous admin type jobs that need to be done. So I actually teach no more than 13 days per month, but I'm still busy even though my business is now devoted to teaching.

Chris


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## Peter Sefton (16 Dec 2016)

I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience.

Who exactly is teaching the course? Not the same as whose name is over the door. The person delivering the subject may be the technician or a workshop assistant; and in some cases it can be a fellow student!

Will the tutor be dedicated to the students that have paid for their time and expertise for the whole duration of the course, or will they be running other courses at the same time, or teaching your course for part of the day and leaving you with others to deliver the majority of your learning, or even dealing with their commercial customers? What is the main focus of their business and consider how that will that impact you and your experience?

Does your tutor have any teaching and/or assessing qualifications, and are they experienced at teaching or are they a commercial workshop that has a bit of spare bench space and a desire to improve their cash flow?

Is the teacher experienced in that subject area and has the facilities to teach it fully. In sharpening for example does the teacher demonstrate a wide variety of medium and have them available for you to use?

What facilities do they have - a good range of tools, machines or veneering equipment that is relevant to you and your own workshop? 

Is the workshop in an easily accessible location with local amenities, and is there a range of accommodation nearby to suit your budget, if you wish to stay locally during your course.

Will you need to bring your own tools or will you be issued with your own quality toolkit (not shared workshop tools that never get looked after or kept sharp)?

Can you experience a range of tool types from different manufacturers that suit all budgets, and do they have good quality, well-maintained machines or at the other end of the scale, very expensive high production kit that you are never likely to use in your own workshop?

Does the tutor keep their teaching up to date, with new ideas and innovations and investigating new trends? Can they accommodate different learning styles?

How big is the workshop? Does it have separate areas for hand tool work, a machine shop and a separate classroom for design, or theory delivery? Will other workshop users interfere with your learning environment? Will you have your own bench and workspace and a good amount of room to spread yourself out? Is the workshop well lit and warm?

Is the workshop well managed and does it comply to all regulations, LEV, Fire safety, first aid trained staff, using ACOP and COSHH compliant? Do you think it is a professionally run workshop?

During the time you are in the workshop is there only one course running at a time, or are the tutors trying to deal with different subject areas and groups of students.

Is your course in a commercial workshop which also teaches, if so, what happens if a paying job runs over – how does this effect your learning experience?

If you ask a question, does the tutor have a wide range of experience to be able to answer it fully?

What materials will you be using - is it limited to softwoods like pine or will you be enjoying and learning about a whole range of quality hardwood timber products, glues and polishes.

Will the materials you use be dry and well selected for you? Or will your treasured course project warp, twist and fail through poor timber management.

Finally and probably most importantly, do you think you would enjoy being taught by the tutor i.e., do you want to spend forty hours with this person?

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":mpwq1fk8 said:


> .....
> Finally and probably most importantly, do you think you would enjoy being taught by the tutor i.e., do you want to spend forty hours with this person?
> 
> Cheers Peter


Or would you be better off spending the money just buying a load of wood and getting stuck in?
If you have spent more on courses and tools rather than wood, you haven't really begun. 
Procrastination will butter no parsnips!


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## MrTeroo (16 Dec 2016)

Wizard9999":30ru18ls said:


> I see you are pretty new Teroo (no offence intend, just observation). It won't take you long to realise Jacob simply does this as some sort of twisted sport. Best to ignore as witout oxygen a fire will die.
> 
> Terry.




Ok


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## custard (16 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":1eegpu4k said:


> I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience.



Excellent list. 

If you're considering a longer course I'd add a few additional points,

-is there a structured syllabus?
-does each project in that syllabus have an identified learning outcome that delivers a necessary skill to the student and progresses logically onto the next project?
-beware courses where the student is given an overly large project too soon, some courses deliberately give students projects that are designed so that they'll be fully occupied with mundane repetitive tasks and won't pester the staff.
-clearly understand the workshop's safety policy. I know of one course where students are told that they're safer using unguarded saws because they'll pay more attention.
-what hours are guidance available? Some courses only have instructors for part of the day, if you hit an intractable problem outside of those hours then you're left twiddling your thumbs.
-a critical test is, would you be capable of replicating the projects after the course has finished _in your own workshop_? If the answer's no then something's wrong. I've heard of courses where students get to use sophisticated pre-built jigs or specialised equipment, or the teaching staff have pre-made particularly complex components, so that the student can proudly display an item and say "I made this", but they haven't a hope of ever making it again.
-beware courses that claim to give you the skills to become a professional designer/maker. You can get a start in the right direction, but the number of designer/makers who make a viable income purely from the fruits of their furniture making can be counted on the fingers of a particularly accident prone machine operator. Plus it's years not months before you acquire the full suite of skills and the speed to work commercially.
-does the workshop has an easily identified design ethic? If so make sure it's something you like, because in lots of subtle and not so subtle ways that's what you'll end up qualified to make.
-what would happen if the course proprietor or an instructor fell ill? Is the workshop sufficiently staffed that it could carry on and complete your training? I could point to multiple instances on both short and long courses where this has happened, if you've taken a sabattical break from a career to attend a course then that's a problem.

And to pick up Peter's final point about how well you get on with the tutor, that's worth re-stating. For every great woodworking tutor out there there's another who has a giant chip on their shoulder, or only teaches to make the numbers add up and really just wants to crack on with their own projects, or uses teaching as a bully pulpit to big up their own ego and spout off about their crackpot theories, or actually isn't quite as skilled as they'd have you believe. Over the years I've met quite a few of these guys and their ex students, it's pretty sobering how few genuinely professional and competent instructors (like Peter and his team) there actually are, so buyer beware.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

MrTeroo":rumku1s9 said:


> Wizard9999":rumku1s9 said:
> 
> 
> > I see you are pretty new Teroo (no offence intend, just observation). It won't take you long to realise Jacob simply does this as some sort of twisted sport. Best to ignore as witout oxygen a fire will die.
> ...


Basically these people should be paying for the advertising - this is a forum for woodworkers , not salesmen.

I'm happy for them to join in chats etc but the numerous self promoting posts is really over the top and should not be allowed.
It's commonly known as "spam".

Look at the rules we have about selling our odds and ends of tools - this is to exclude overt sales people from exploiting a free resource intended for a our mutual self help.


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## PAC1 (16 Dec 2016)

Jacob, the thread was started by someone asking which course was best. The course providers only commented when asked direct questions or bated by you. To now suggest they should not be allowed to defend themselves from your prejudiced views is the height of hypocrisy. 
Earlier you suggested people should not go on their courses. Yet even you had training of some sort whether that was an indentured apprenticeship or a TOPS course I do not know nor care but to suggest people should not seek out training for our trade is again hypocrisy.
I know it is best not to bite on your bating but on behalf of those course providers, the record needed stating clearly.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

PAC1":2jftg2qd said:


> Jacob, the thread was started by someone asking which course was best. The course providers only commented when asked direct questions or bated by you. To now suggest they should not be allowed to defend themselves from your prejudiced views is the height of hypocrisy.
> Earlier you suggested people should not go on their courses. Yet even you had training of some sort whether that was indentured apprenticeship or a TOPS course I do not know nor care but to suggest people should not seek out training for our trade is again hypocrisy.
> I know it is best not to bite, on your bating but on behalf of those course providers, the record needed stating clearly.


I don't have a prejudiced view. I've no idea about the quality of these courses. I just get a bit brassed off with endless self promotion and free advertising.
Ask yourself how many of their posts are about woodwork topics but without reference to the courses (and the tools etc) they are selling.
I'm sure Peter is fully aware of what I am saying.
Another notorious self promoter used to answer wood-work questions with things like "it's in my second book, third video" etc, in other words "I'm not telling you the answer - go and buy my book"! :lol:


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## sploo (16 Dec 2016)

Mr T":3g9brkbm said:


> That's a reasonable calculation Sploo. Most course providers do not teach solidly all week every week. Preparation for a course can take a few days to start with, then there is time taken developing new courses and all the numerous admin type jobs that need to be done. So I actually teach no more than 13 days per month, but I'm still busy even though my business is now devoted to teaching.
> 
> Chris


I have friends who run their own (small) businesses, so I frequently hear the "I don't make much money" line :wink: (but to be fair they do back it up with realistic cost examples)




Jacob":3g9brkbm said:


> Or would you be better off spending the money just buying a load of wood and getting stuck in?
> If you have spent more on courses and tools rather than wood, you haven't really begun.
> Procrastination will butter no parsnips!


Practice is absolutely key - going to a weekend (or even a week) course isn't suddenly going to make you any good. However, I tend to find that a good course (be it woodworking or something entirely unrelated) tends to give me a few "take home" messages - techniques or examples that really gel; things that answer a question or correct a technique issue. The kind of thing where you could spend years struggling with something, when it really just took an experienced practitioner to watch you do something (incorrectly) and give you some advice.


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Dec 2016)

Jacob":24no913s said:


> PAC1":24no913s said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, the thread was started by someone asking which course was best. The course providers only commented when asked direct questions or bated by you. To now suggest they should not be allowed to defend themselves from your prejudiced views is the height of hypocrisy.
> ...



Tell you what, Jacob - since you have such a low opinion of people running introductory woodworking courses (a wrong opinion, in my view - as several posts on this thread from people who have benefitted will attest), how about running some courses yourself? You've got the workshop, you've got the skills, and you've got the opinions.

Obviously, you wouldn't advertise these courses, as that would go against all you've said in this thread. Nonetheless, word would spread about the Derbyshire Guru who cuts dovetails with little but a sharpened nail, and people would flock to drink up the wisdom of He Of The Dished Stones. Next stop, the BBC would come knocking, and you'd be the star of The Great British Make Off, prowling the benches in the tent like Mary Berry with a pencil behind her ear. Fame and fortune await, Jacob!


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## meccarroll (16 Dec 2016)

Peter Sefton":mfp558ok said:


> I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience.
> 
> Who exactly is teaching the course? Not the same as whose name is over the door. The person delivering the subject may be the technician or a workshop assistant; and in some cases it can be a fellow student!
> 
> ...




=D> 


Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL

You made an important point regarding teaching qualifications, and that is a fair point because it is all to easy for a professional woodworker (Cabinet Maker, Joiner, Carpenter Boatbuilder etc) to say I can teach you a subject but the question is do they really know how to deliver the subject professionally? I think this is where teaching qualifications are extremely important because they provide evidence that the person delivering the course has a proven ability to do so. Teachers and lecturers in further and higher education take qualifications so that they are qualified to teach in Colleges etc, so here is the punchline that I've been dying to know what Teaching and Assessing qualifications have you gained Peter and where did you gained them? 

Another quite important question: what qualification do your long term students gain at the end of their course, is it an in house qualification or is it an award by a nationally recognised organisation like the City & Guilds Institute?

I know I have put this question to you Peter but it is also equally put to the other course providers who have contributed on here so far if they wish to answer it. 

Mark


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

Cheshirechappie":1a02wp0o said:


> ....
> Tell you what, Jacob - since you have such a low opinion of people running introductory woodworking courses ...


I haven't a low opinion of the courses (I know nothing much about them) I just get p|ssed off with all the advertising.
There's a lot of traders of one sort or another on this forum - if they all started flogging their wares it'd be really boring. Don't mind the occasional discrete reference to what they do - it's not uninteresting obviously, but let's have less of this blatant banging of the drum.
They often have little teams of forelock pulling fans in tow, who encourage them. 
I suppose we are all vulnerable to a bit of flattery - if people treat you like a guru you may start thinking you actually are one!
Worst victim of this form of flattery was St Jim Krenov R.I.P. - who sometimes seemed not to know what all the fuss was about and spent a lot of time protesting his innocence!


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Dec 2016)

Jacob":2qw1gd91 said:


> Cheshirechappie":2qw1gd91 said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



For someone with not much knowledge of the courses under discussion, you do seem to have quite a lot to say.

As for advertising, the members of this forum who run courses don't bang on about it, there being rules an' all, which no doubt the Mods keep a beady eye on. However, if somebody asks them a direct question by posting on the forum, it seems fair enough to me if they provide an answer by posting on said forum - and I don't really see how that can be 'advertising'.

Jacob - seriously, now - if you do have a particular beef with anybody misusing the rules, could you take it up with the Mods via the Private Message system? Otherwise, things might get nastier than is desirable on the public message boards.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":1wihu897 said:


> .......
> 
> Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL


Yes I think he covered everything really thoroughly :roll: yawn


> You made an important point regarding teaching qualifications, ....


Good point. On my TOPS/C&G course we were taught by retired tradesmen who had also done a teaching course with respect to their trade. In other words they had years of experience behind them. We got a certificate or something - but it was well deserved if you had lasted the full stretch and got the marks.
Many of these modern private courses are not recognised particularly by anybody and really are just tasters for amateurs - mainly early retired I guess, and not hard up. Could be wrong.


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## Cheshirechappie (16 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":1ymks1ay said:


> Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL
> 
> You made an important point regarding teaching qualifications, and that is a fair point because it is all to easy for a professional woodworker (Cabinet Maker, Joiner, Carpenter Boatbuilder etc) to say I can teach you a subject but the question is do they really know how to deliver the subject professionally? I think this is where teaching qualifications are extremely important because they provide evidence that the person delivering the course has a proven ability to do so. Teachers and lecturers in further and higher education take qualifications so that they are qualified to teach in Colleges etc, so here is the punchline that I've been dying to know what Teaching and Assessing qualifications have you gained Peter and where did you gained them?
> 
> ...



Mark - I think if the courses under discussion were intended to lead to a Nationally recognised trade qualification, your points would be very valid. However, in this instance, the courses are intended to be almost a replacement for the sort of introduction to basic woodwork that used to be commonly taught in secondary schools, and now isn't. They're really aimed at people who want to do a bit in their shed at weekends, but want to do a bit more than just potter about. They could be a foundation for higher things, but could be all many people want or need. Nobody doing them seeks a formal qualification, just some basic skill and knowledge for the fun of it. Thus, I don't think formal teaching qualifications are really needed, just the demonstrable ability to do what is being taught.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

Cheshirechappie":1im1glzw said:


> ...
> For someone with not much knowledge of the courses under discussion, you do seem to have quite a lot to say......


That's because I'm not commenting on the course, I'm objecting to the relentless self promotion and free advertising.


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## AJB Temple (16 Dec 2016)

Jacob - there is a solution for you: just don't read the threads. It is peculiar really, quite often you make useful contributions to threads in a down to earth way, and then blow it completely with derogatory remarks which unfortunately tend in the eyes of others to demean you and undermine what you say. That is a pity. I do read your contributions often as there are gems occasionally, but the ranting repetition (as on this thread) becomes tiresome. 

Personally, I have found the contributions from the course providers to be suitable and relevant to what this forum is about.


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## meccarroll (16 Dec 2016)

Cheshirechappie":2p2omqyg said:


> meccarroll":2p2omqyg said:
> 
> 
> > Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL
> ...



Maybe if I put it this way: I've asked a couple of questions the course providers now have an opportunity to answer and maybe provide further information


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## custard (16 Dec 2016)

Incidentally, the same variability that is found on paid for training also exists on C&G courses. On the one hand there are outstanding C&G colleges like Chichester, who seem to turn out World Skills Championship medal winners every year, on the other hand I hear of colleges where the students chuck tools around and vandalise each others work, while demotivated instructors sit around with a couldn't care less attitude.


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## meccarroll (16 Dec 2016)

custard":2l1rsel3 said:


> Incidentally, the same variability that is found on paid for training also exists on C&G courses. On the one hand there are outstanding C&G colleges like Chichester, who seem to turn out World Skills Championship medal winners every year, on the other hand I hear of colleges where the students chuck tools around and vandalise each others work, while demotivated instructors sit around with a couldn't care less attitude.



Yes Iv'e seen this happen too and it's not an overstatement to say you need to have properly trained staff to deal with the situation.


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## lurker (16 Dec 2016)

Jacob":2y7vuns3 said:


> Cheshirechappie":2y7vuns3 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...




Jacob,
That is simply not true


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

lurker":1uf2shsd said:


> Jacob":1uf2shsd said:
> 
> 
> > Cheshirechappie":1uf2shsd said:
> ...


What isn't true?


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":2sqq4lfj said:


> .........
> Maybe if I put it this way: I've asked a couple of questions the course providers now have an opportunity to answer and maybe provide further information


Peter Sefton is highly qualified - it's on his web site.


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## kevinlightfoot (16 Dec 2016)

In the 1980s myself and Mick O,Donnell tried to unify the people who were setting up courses and training in woodturning we were aware of people who will remain nameless setting up as woodturning instructors who were neither teachers lecturers or even decent wood turners .We set up a system for training woodturning instructors and organised a few conferences to try and get this unification under way.After much hard and unprofitable work we realised we would not succeed in our venture.Th e main obstacle was the fact that people were loathe to understand that being able to turn a bowl or run off a set of spindles did not really mean they had the ability to teach other how to do the same,and the never ending question of who teaches the teachers and who says theirs is the correct way anyway.I rapidly became disillusioned with the whole world of woodwork teaching and trained through five hard years at university to become a primary school teacher.During that time I discovered that some of the lecturers were themselves very poor at passing on their expertise as teachers and had in fact left the teaching profession as failed front line practitioners.The old saying comes to mind of those that can ,do,and those that can't ,teach.I now consider that a lot of these woodworking teachers have to turn to running courses because they haven't been able to make it in the cut and thrust world of making for a living .You should be aware also of professional bodies who allow you onto their register .In 1983 I applied to be placed on The Regiter Of The Worshipful Company of Woodturners,I was invited to interview and to submit a few samples of my work for the examiners perusal.I took a day off work and travelled quite a distance to the Cotswolds where I was interviewed byCecil Jordan a turner of repute the day was quite stressful on my part hoping that I was up to scratch.After a few weeks wait I was informed I was to be placed on the register,I had made it I was indeed a professional turner,Cecil Jordan said so!
All was well until at a gathering of turners at Loughborough I happened to be talking to a well known turner and teacher who was also on the aforementioned Register and I asked him about his interview.Oh he said I didn't have an interview I just telephoned and asked to be placed on the Register and was immediately accepted.I promptly asked to be removed from the Register as the qualification wasn't worth a jot.This type of thing goes on and you should take any qualification claims with a large pinch of salt.


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## Jacob (16 Dec 2016)

kevinlightfoot":k706nsvz said:


> I.......This type of thing goes on and you should take any qualification claims with a large pinch of salt.


Well yes. A good teacher isn't necessarily a good practitioner either, and vice versa. Either way it's a vocation.
How to do things and how to _learn_ to do things are very different.


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## Random Orbital Bob (16 Dec 2016)

In the software business I used to run one of the most common mistakes was to promote the best "tekky" in to the line management role. Surprise surprise, they couldn't delegate, couldn't listen, frequently undermined subordinates and were openly critical of their work if it failed to meet the standards of their own veteran status! Ask them to absorb more subtle management skills like motivating a team or handling a tricky client situation that required diplomacy and BOOM, all hell would break loose.

So it is with teaching. Teaching is a skill and it's very different from making. Making is a self absorbing process, teaching is quite the opposite, nothing to do with self. It is unsurprising that many competent makers fail to make good teachers and equally, many average or worse makers can in fact make great teachers.

A few good makers might well be able to teach too.


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## AJB Temple (16 Dec 2016)

Teaching at high level is a funny old game. I went to a very old university. The dons (lecturers) were mainly recruited and retained for their academic research skills - at which they excelled. Research is what brought both the money and kudos into the universities. Teaching was a requirement of the job usually, but some, perhaps many, were not gifted in this area and others also lacked interpersonal skills to a remarkable degree. 

Several years of study to doctorate level taught me that teaching qualifications are rarely an indicator of good teachers. I will give you an example. I sent my eldest son to a prep school in the private system. They were not required to employ traditionally qualified teachers. The school employed a South African engineer to teach technology (or whatever they called it - but various craft skills anyway). He had spent 20 or so years working in industry after his degree and had no teaching qualifications to his name. He was universally regarded by the students in both the prep school and the senior school as an inspirational man. Unemployable in the state sector though.


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## kevinlightfoot (16 Dec 2016)

Glad to see agreement with my point !


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## Random Orbital Bob (16 Dec 2016)

At my university, the only male without a doctorate was openly scorned by the staff (all of whom were actively engaged in publishing their research). He was in fact an ex-secondary school teacher. Like your South African, he was easily the best teacher as voted by the student body. He had no ego to defend, it just wasn't about him, it was about making the subject matter interesting and memorable and then helping people to understand specific problems in complex areas of knowledge. Lovely bloke, knocked the rest of the egomaniacs into a cocked hat!


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## MikeJhn (16 Dec 2016)

Everybody is eventually promoted to the level of their own incompetence, its called the Peter Principle.

Mike


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## meccarroll (16 Dec 2016)

Jacob":11d2y6s3 said:


> meccarroll":11d2y6s3 said:
> 
> 
> > .........
> ...



I've looked on Peter Sefton's web site (and a good few of the others out of interest) and read a bit about him. On his web site there is some information about him being asked to set up a furniture course at his local college and I believe he also taught the BTEC National Diploma in Furniture Design too but I could not find which qualifications he has.

I think it's quite interesting to know a bit about the private side of education in the woodwork industry and as Peter Sefton said earlier in the thread...........................



.................................._ *Mr Sefton*_:



Peter Sefton":11d2y6s3 said:


> I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience
> 
> 
> Does your tutor have any teaching and/or assessing qualifications, and are they experienced at teaching or are they a commercial workshop that has a bit of spare bench space and a desire to improve their cash flow?
> ...



After reading the above I thought why not ask as I was dying to know. I'm betting he has a Cert Ed (Certificate in Education) but I'm not sure. It's what college lecturers aim to achieve as it is a further/higher education certificate for lecturing in courses like the one you did in college.

Mark


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## RobinBHM (17 Dec 2016)

Judging by the stupid ideology of current thinking in PGCE training anybody NOT qualified to teach is likely to do a better job.

Perhaps these privately run courses should be Ofsted inspected...........


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## meccarroll (17 Dec 2016)

RobinBHM":6t1v30s0 said:


> Judging by the stupid ideology of current thinking in PGCE training anybody NOT qualified to teach is likely to do a better job.
> 
> Perhaps these privately run courses should be Ofsted inspected...........



Think they (_not all_) run outside of, Ofstead, mainstream regulation LoL


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## bugbear (17 Dec 2016)

Random Orbital Bob":d90y87iz said:


> So it is with teaching. Teaching is a skill and it's very different from making. Making is a self absorbing process, teaching is quite the opposite, nothing to do with self. It is unsurprising that many competent makers fail to make good teachers and equally, many average or worse makers can in fact make great teachers.



Agreed in all regards.

BugBear


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## Jacob (17 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":1mvhl1fb said:


> Jacob":1mvhl1fb said:
> 
> 
> > meccarroll":1mvhl1fb said:
> ...


Look on his web site http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... er_sefton/ it's no secret. 
His anorak will be covered with badges!


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## tomatwark (17 Dec 2016)

The point that is being missed here is.

If you are serving an apprenticeship the role of the college is to provide you with a qualification, and to give you an insight into the things that you may not do at your work place, most of your learning should be by experience, on the job.

This is why a lot of people who do a full time course struggle when they hit the employment market, because they do not have the work experience and lack the speed need to make the company money.

The courses that Peter Sefton, Paul Sellers and the like run are largely aimed at the amateur, who want to spend their money to make the hobby more enjoyable and hopefully with respect to using machines safer.

It is their money and if the courses are not up to their expectations it is for them to complain about them.

Good luck to the folks who run these courses, as an employer I have to train and teach my staff to make sure that they know what they are doing just to cover myself with the HSE and to make sure that the work we produce is to a good standard.

I do use an external training company for some of this and also a couple go to the local college, but still do some of it myself.

The difference is that the folks paying for the courses choose what they want to learn, guys working for me learn what I need them too, but I have to pay them and the training provider.


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## meccarroll (17 Dec 2016)

Jacob":2asccgeo said:


> Look on his web site http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... er_sefton/ it's no secret.
> His anorak will be covered with badges!




Similar to the one you have Jacob:



Jacob":2asccgeo said:


> Good point. On my TOPS/C&G course we were taught by retired tradesmen who had also done a teaching course with respect to their trade. In other words they had years of experience behind them. We got a certificate or something - but it was well deserved if you had lasted the full stretch and got the marks.



It's just self development Jacob and not a bad thing as you are aware.

Mark


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## Jacob (17 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":35kjrb6u said:


> Jacob":35kjrb6u said:
> 
> 
> > Look on his web site http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... er_sefton/ it's no secret.
> ...


Yes I suppose I ought to expand my own CV. All sorts of things could go in; was a bus conductor, farm labourer, quarry worker, etc etc. in the scouts I was patrol leader (Peewit patrol)


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## meccarroll (17 Dec 2016)

Jacob":gte3qa5i said:


> meccarroll":gte3qa5i said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":gte3qa5i said:
> ...



Aw, Your'e so cute Jacob. Just for that I'll give you a X now you send me one back :ho2


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## Peter Sefton (17 Dec 2016)

meccarroll":2q4ga7wo said:


> Peter Sefton":2q4ga7wo said:
> 
> 
> > I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience.
> ...



Good and valid questions Mark

My teaching qualifications are that I have a C&G NVQ 3 Further and Adult Education Teachers Certificate 7306 and C&G NVQ Assessors Award TDLB D32/33 gained in the mid nineties. 

I worked in further education for 8 years as a Course Leader with responsibilities for my fellow instructors and a technician. I had lecturing responsibilities on the BTEC National Diploma in Furniture Making and Design and various C&G Furniture Making qualifications. During this time I undertook a range of personal development courses in regards to Wood Machining and Health and Safety with the HSE, Student Mentoring and Tutorials and preparing for Ofsted :roll: 

I do not offer any formal qualifications to my full time students at present, I have been there and done that, and resigned from the college system when teaching became obsessed with ticking boxes rather than making them  

I did get in contact with Pro Skills earlier this year to see how the route to formal qualifications has developed and felt like I was entering a bureaucratic nightmare - Pro Skills has since closed down as the education sector tries to decide how they wish to proceed. As I understand it, FE will be losing more funding next year to make way for self-devised courses and apprenticeships, which is what was removed in 2002 when all courses had to fit within the European frame work - look out for the new broom :lol: 

My students work towards our School Diploma based on the best parts of the old BTEC National Diploma I used to run. Sean Feeney also assesses this with me, over a series of projects including design, making and business studies. Sean has 7 Bespoke Guild Marks and has served twice on the judging committee for the Furniture Makers Company.

When I taught in FE I had a mix of young and mature students much the same as now. On occasions this led to issues with some mature students as they had no interest in taking exams but we needed the results for both funding and Ofsted inspections. These are issues I do not wish to deal with again as my main focus is the delivery of quality teaching to my fee paying students who join us for a variety of personal reasons.

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (17 Dec 2016)

Spam


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## Random Orbital Bob (17 Dec 2016)

Locking this thread now lest we forget the rules about commercial entities needing to pay for advertising! I appreciate the thread wasn't started by either of the entities in question but it has become a bill board so enough is enough.


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