# X - Carve CNC



## HeliGav (27 Aug 2015)

Any one used an x-carve or know of any alternatives in the UK its nearly birthday time and ive been a good boy lol


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## Roughcut (27 Aug 2015)

Peter Parfitt has some videos on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy-3k3o ... Q&index=11


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## JR147 (27 Aug 2015)

Robosavvy are a UK distributor for X Carve (not that I was looking or anything...)

http://robosavvy.com/store/x-carve-basic-kit-plus.html


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## acewoodturner (28 Aug 2015)

Just had a look at their website, quite interesting. Just got myself a year 2002 Denford router. Had to get a laptop with an rs232 slot of a mate in order to get it running. Havent had a chance to play with it properly yet as Im a bit busy just now. The Denfords are fully upgradable and there is an active forum for them.


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## custard (28 Aug 2015)

This guy in the UK has some videos on the X Carve,

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHNLNi ... ew7OskHdtw

Just about every small professional workshop I talk to mentions the X Carve. I wonder if this is the tipping point for CNC? 

There's no doubt in my mind that CNC machines will become the routers or vacuum bags of the 21st Century, and it's just a question of which manufacturer first gets down to around £1000-£2000 with a large enough, decent quality machine. The way everyone's talking it could be the X-Carve.


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## pcb1962 (28 Aug 2015)

HeliGav":or0aw3qs said:


> Any one used an x-carve or know of any alternatives in the UK its nearly birthday time and ive been a good boy lol



Just about every woodworker on YouTube has been given an X-Carve recently, there are dozens of reviews.
Marius Hornberger's evaluation is one of the most frank and critical.
My impression from the videos is that with the supplied spindle motor it isn't up to much but may work a lot better with a palm router fitted. 
Then it will become a question of whether the stepper motors and drive mechanism are man enough for the job.


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## No skills (28 Aug 2015)

From the looks of it the US maker crowd are upgrading with dewalts small router. 

One of the little shopbots would do me 8)


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## Sporky McGuffin (28 Aug 2015)

Blimey - that's a lot less than my K2 cost second hand! It'd be interesting to see how rigid everything is.


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## RobCee (28 Aug 2015)

I have one of the precursor machines (ShapeOko2), before Inventables started selling their own version (the X-Carve).
Bought it in January 2014 and have given it some good use since then.

The basic problem with it is that 'out of the box' there are many things that are compromises, so if you want to get the best from it, you will have to upgrade them.

You can make it a lot better, but it will never be up to cutting ferrous metals.

So far, the list of things I have changed (which I can remember) is as follows:


X-axis widened, stiffened, and bolted together to minimise twist (a real problem initially)
Built dust shoe and spindle mounts
Modified mdf waste board with t-nuts
Modified gantry mounting and custom spacers
Replaced spindle with Chinese import
Re-built dust shoe and spindle mounts
Replaced waste board with Aluminium t-slot
Added limit switches and filtering circuitry
Upgraded Z-axis motor
Upgraded Z-axis lead screw
Added spindle control circuit
Added frame stiffening members
Raised machine on feet for leveling
Made custom brackets and fitted drag chains
Built custom enclosure for electronics
Built a touch probe

The good thing is that you can do all this sort of thing over time. The basic machine allows you to get going easily and at a (fairly) sensible price point. There is little sense in spending £10k on a fancy machine and getting bored of it really fast, or breaking it because you don't understand what you are doing yet.

I really like mine, but it does have it's limitations. Would I buy an X-Carve? If I didn't have my machine, then I would. A lot of the initial problems I had have been addressed. From where I am now, I am considering building my own, larger machine so that I can incorporate my upgrades and design decisions into it.

I am more than happy to answer questions about these things if folks want to find out more.

So far, I have used it to machine the following materials:
MDF, Cork, Slate, Plywood, Oak, Mahogany, Acrylic, Perspex, Delrin, Engraving Laminate, Aluminium (up to 1/4" thick)


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## custard (28 Aug 2015)

RobCee":183sc22p said:


> So far, I have used it to machine the following materials:
> MDF, Cork, Slate, Plywood, Oak, Mahogany, Acrylic, Perspex, Delrin, Engraving Laminate, Aluminium (up to 1/4" thick)



You just feel there's a real revolution about to happen in furniture design, where instead of being confined to metal OR wood OR fabric OR whatever, suddenly the designer's palette has every conceivable material laid out at once, all to be mixed up together just as you please. In addition the degree of texture and organic shaping that CNC enables at a realistic price is astonishing.

It's a tough call because I was trained in a rigorous Arts & Crafts furniture making tradition, but even if it means abandoning much of that hard won knowledge I don't feel I can let this revolution pass me by. 

The question is at what point do you jump in? If I leave it too late then I'll be miles behind the learning curve, if I go too early then I'll waste a lot of money on quickly outdated kit with too small capacity. Many of my contemporaries are saying the X Carve is the one, and the moment is now. 

I'm not entirely convinced, if I can wait another year or 18 months I feel sure something much better, with a significantly more substantial capacity, will suddenly pop up at the much the same price. Who knows?


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## sploo (28 Aug 2015)

custard":235stoz5 said:


> You just feel there's a real revolution about to happen in furniture design, where instead of being confined to metal OR wood OR fabric OR whatever, suddenly the designer's palette has every conceivable material laid out at once, all to be mixed up together just as you please. In addition the degree of texture and organic shaping that CNC enables at a realistic price is astonishing.
> 
> It's a tough call because I was trained in a rigorous Arts & Crafts furniture making tradition, but even if it means abandoning much of that hard won knowledge I don't feel I can let this revolution pass me by.
> 
> ...


Totally depends on what you want it for. Most of the mid-size machines are probably too small for furniture work, and aren't really strong enough to do much aluminium (or any steel).

I know of a maker that uses one to carve out the bases for seats (they hand carve a prototype, then batch them on the CNC). The same guys make rippled MDF panels that they vacuum veneer (so you end up with a walnut cabinet that looks like the side is flowing fabric).

I've got a 39x25" machine made by K2. Sadly out of action due to a fault at the moment (and K2 have recently gone out of business ) but it was originally sold to the electric guitar making world. Mine was mostly used when I was building loudspeaker cabinets from MDF, and they're great for simple cut outs (with some rebates and pockets). They're also great for sign makers.

Any sort of 3D carving takes a much longer time - though it of course may be quicker than doing it by hand.

I've never used an x-carve, but from a brief look at the pictures I'd be wary of the rigidity of the 800x800mm unit. It doesn't look that strong for its size, and a 65mm Z axis may be limiting for some.

I'd love an 8x4' machine as the large size would give much greater versatility (and you'd spend more time cutting, less time loading and unloading the machine), but space and cost are prohibitive.

In short - these machines are very useful for the right jobs, but they're certainly not a panacea. In terms of learning curve - it's not too bad. There are cheap/free CAD programs and cheap CAM programs (e.g. I can recommend SheetCAM). There are good sign making and "take my picture and carve it" programs such as vCarve. MeshCAM will allow some degree of 3D work. You can of course spend $$$$ on top end software.


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## Sporky McGuffin (28 Aug 2015)

sploo":181o4jeu said:


> I've got a 39x25" machine made by K2. Sadly out of action due to a fault at the moment (and K2 have recently gone out of business ) but it was originally sold to the electric guitar making world.



Snap!

What's the problem? I rebuilt a fair bit of mine so might be able to help.

Software-wise I'm using Rhino3D and MADCam, then Mach3 for runtime control.


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## sploo (28 Aug 2015)

Sporky McGuffin":fg88wml3 said:


> sploo":fg88wml3 said:
> 
> 
> > I've got a 39x25" machine made by K2. Sadly out of action due to a fault at the moment (and K2 have recently gone out of business ) but it was originally sold to the electric guitar making world.
> ...


Thanks for the offer. It's the control box - the machine uses servos and the control box runs three Gecko G320 units. One axis has suddenly started tripping out with a few seconds of jogging it back and forth. It doesn't matter which machine axis is connected to it - that control box axis will always trip the whole box out.

I sent the G320 back to Gecko, who tested it and claimed it was OK. I've refitted it, but it still does the same. My next task will be to flip a pair of the Geckos around, to try to isolate if it's something else in the control box.

Rhino is out of my price range, but I also use Mach for control. I've not used MADCam though.

What are you using yours for?


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## artie (28 Aug 2015)

I built a small three axis machine about 5 years or so ago, with the intention that when I had it all figured out I would build a bigger one which would handle 8 by 4 sheets.

I finished the small one and had it working nice and just left it sitting there ever since. Could anyone give me an idea of what it would cost nowadays to build one which would handle 8 by four sheets and give 1 mm accuracy.


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## custard (28 Aug 2015)

Sporky McGuffin":3srtk70f said:


> Software-wise I'm using Rhino3D and MADCam, then Mach3 for runtime control.



There's no doubting your IT skills. Every time I see your flashing nose I think, "now there's a man at ease with cyber doings and all things interwebby".


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## howser (28 Aug 2015)

Hi, been a lurker here a while but never felt the need to post before now, but that looks shockingly poor value for money.

Please if you are thinking of getting into CNC even the cheap 3060 or 6090 kits from Ebay will wipe the floor with that thing

Looks like every possible corner has been cut other than the price

If you want a light production/hobby machine the likes of the Heiz High Z models would be the minimum spec and even those are a compromise.

The chinese machines are known for not having the best electronics but can be upgraded as you go and atleast they have propper rails bearings and spindles, certainly better value for money than this.

If you want to do engraving etc then i would recommend the T models as they have ballscrews which give the machine less backlash but even more importantly you will want more speed for engraving as an acme screw will limit you in this respect

You could look at:

prototools

I have no affiliation with them whatsoever, but you will atleast be able to see what entry level machines look like and even these mostly have unsupported round rail apart from the larger models and kress router.

However dont underestimate the kress as i still use one in production and as long as im not running for hours on end then its pretty good and relatively quiet upto about 14000 rpm, and this can be uprgaded later on if you wished to a watercooled chinese spindle for only a few hundred pounds.


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## Steve Jones (29 Aug 2015)

Build your own, I did  

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/topic90046.html

Steve


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## sploo (29 Aug 2015)

Steve Jones":31286whl said:


> Build your own, I did
> 
> https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/topic90046.html
> 
> Steve


Not questioning for a second that your build is anything less than hugely impressive (it is hugely impressive) but I'm not sure it's a good solution for a professional shop - even a small one. The longevity and repeatable accuracy of a mostly MDF machine isn't going to match something made from aluminium or steel, plus there's a reason many commercial machines use sealed THK rails (dust).

Obviously, there's a huge difference in cost between that and what you've made, and as a home hobbyist I did consider building before I bought the K2. I still harbour ideas of building a fairly large lathe style machine, but lack of time and space keep defeating me. If I did, I would go for an aluminium extrusion design.

For a pro shop with a bit of time and welding skills, I'd be looking at making this http://www.mechmate.com/. I believe they started off life doing parts for Shopbot machines, and ended up being able to build an entire machine.


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## Sporky McGuffin (29 Aug 2015)

sploo":3m6839hk said:


> Thanks for the offer. It's the control box - the machine uses servos and the control box runs three Gecko G320 units. One axis has suddenly started tripping out with a few seconds of jogging it back and forth. It doesn't matter which machine axis is connected to it - that control box axis will always trip the whole box out.
> 
> I sent the G320 back to Gecko, who tested it and claimed it was OK. I've refitted it, but it still does the same. My next task will be to flip a pair of the Geckos around, to try to isolate if it's something else in the control box.



That's an odd one. I replaced all the G320s in mine with G320X when one blew and I rebuilt the whole thing, and there are tweaks to do to get them going. Have you run through the Gecko setup routine?



> Rhino is out of my price range, but I also use Mach for control. I've not used MADCam though.
> 
> What are you using yours for?



I got Rhino at the educational price - I used to work one day a week at a University and had a staff ID card; I emailed McNeil and asked if that qualified me and they said it did. I originally got mine for guitar building, but I've also found it's really good for thicknessing timber with curly grain, using a big surfacing bit, and I've also used it for precisely cutting jig components and the like.


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## sploo (30 Aug 2015)

I'm feeling like we're hijacking the OP's thread :mrgreen: 



Sporky McGuffin":7mf8u24j said:


> That's an odd one. I replaced all the G320s in mine with G320X when one blew and I rebuilt the whole thing, and there are tweaks to do to get them going. Have you run through the Gecko setup routine?


I've read the manual, but it looks like it's not a 5 minute job - and it would require me to do quite a bit of rewiring/moving stuff around to do the testing.

I've flipped over two of the G320 units in the control box so I can test whether the same controller axis still fails (i.e. is it the G320, or something else). It's currently sitting on our dining table as I've not had time today to refit the box and test it though.

The G320 on the failing axis (Z) does have slightly different settings for the trim pots than X and Y, so it's possible that it's got a lower current limit (and that's causing it to trip out). But... it's always been like that, and the machine's been running for years. I always assumed they'd tuned it and found slightly different settings worked better for the vertical axis - though I believe all three servo motors are identical.

A refit with G320X units sounds interesting, and I'd certainly be interested in learning more about what you've done - though maybe we should take that to a different thread or private messages.



Sporky McGuffin":7mf8u24j said:


> I got Rhino at the educational price - I used to work one day a week at a University and had a staff ID card; I emailed McNeil and asked if that qualified me and they said it did. I originally got mine for guitar building, but I've also found it's really good for thicknessing timber with curly grain, using a big surfacing bit, and I've also used it for precisely cutting jig components and the like.


Similar here - jigs, surfacing. Not done any guitar bodies though. Lots of loudspeakers that have played recordings of guitars :wink: 

Good score with the educational pricing - great if you can get it.

I do think that the task of cutting accurate jigs is a good reason for a furniture maker to get a CNC machine. I have found that one-off items are often quicker to make by hand (once you factor in CAD/CAM/uploading/material clamping/checking you're not going to hit any fixtures/cutting/clean up), but if you produced multiple similar items on a regular basis then CNC makes a very strong case for itself.


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Aug 2015)

Fair point - I'll have a think and PM you on the troubleshooting.

I also like using the CNC machine as an intellectual exercise - how do I do the same job with hand tools, powertools/machinery and with CNC? Some things are easier one way than another, but sometimes it's just good to approach things from different angles. One of the first jobs I programmed was a turner's cube in beech. Not normally made on a mill...


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## worn thumbs (30 Aug 2015)

I'm finding this an interesting thread.I completely understand the comments regarding the structural aspects of some entry level machines and I am torn between building a basic MDF machine from scratch so that I have a better understanding of the technology or buying something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3D-CNC-Router ... 2ca094b1c3 so that I can assemble the parts and then start cutting parts.

It may be straying from the subject of this thread,but I would be glad of any experiences with adding limit switches,homing sensors and tool length sensors to basic machines.I'm currently thinking LinuxCNC and maybe Meshcam.


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## Sporky McGuffin (30 Aug 2015)

I'd say buy or make the most rigid frame you can. You can always start off with a palm router and upgrade to a spindle later, but compromising on the frame will limit the machine's potential.


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## HeliGav (9 Sep 2015)

Ordered an x carve fully loaded. Does anyone know of any websites where you can download free plans etc. to carve.


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## sploo (9 Sep 2015)

HeliGav":fv09qzaq said:


> Ordered an x carve fully loaded. Does anyone know of any websites where you can download free plans etc. to carve.


Have a rummage around the cnczone forum. I'm also on there as "sploo", though less active these days.


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## Jmac80 (10 Sep 2015)

Just looking at these..
$1279 in the usa and £1170 here, i know import charges etc but seems a little steep?


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## marcros (10 Sep 2015)

and VAT


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## Jmac80 (10 Sep 2015)

marcros":78jf6sr5 said:


> and VAT



I guess so.
I would love to give it a go but i think i'd rather a small cheap desktop diy Chinese one to get my toes wet then if i like it i can look at building my own larger unit.


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## Jmac80 (10 Sep 2015)

anyone tried one of these ?
http://openbuildspartstore.com/c-beam-m ... al-bundle/


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## sploo (11 Sep 2015)

Jmac80":33kayc5x said:


> Just looking at these..
> $1279 in the usa and £1170 here, i know import charges etc but seems a little steep?


When I bought the K2 KG3925 I paid about 4% import duty ("machines for cutting wood and plastic", as far as I recall). You obviously pay shipping for a pallet, then you pay VAT on the item cost, VAT on the shipping, VAT on the import duty (yes, tax on the tax), and I believe there was a handling fee (a fee for the privilege of them charging you a fee). Yes, there was also VAT on the handling fee too.

However, even after being royally bent over, it still came in cheaper than a European made machine. I was also looking at http://en.step-four.at/hp2/, but for the same money their machines were smaller, slower, and looked much flimsier.

That said, it was ten years ago, and the exchange rate was $2 to £1, so things may be different now.

The current rate is about $1.5, so $1279 is £852, add 20% VAT and you get £1023, so £1170 is in the ball park.


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## Jmac80 (11 Sep 2015)

yeah i guess so.
think i'd still like to only spend about 500 incase it just isn't for me.

anyone any opinions on this? http://openbuildspartstore.com/c-beam-m ... al-bundle/


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## sploo (11 Sep 2015)

Jmac80":1c6gmei3 said:


> yeah i guess so.
> think i'd still like to only spend about 500 incase it just isn't for me.
> 
> anyone any opinions on this? http://openbuildspartstore.com/c-beam-m ... al-bundle/


My gut feel is that £500 isn't a lot of cash for a CNC - even for full DIY. The K2 was $6400 (in 2006 money), and is "cheap" compared to many machines.

However, there's a video of it cutting aluminium, which isn't exactly trivial, and technology's come on a long way in the last decade, so it might be worth a punt.

Obviously the table size and travel is limited, and there's a worrying lack of specs on their site re feed rates, but I suspect it'll do small wood/plastic/alum jobs OK.


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## Sporky McGuffin (11 Sep 2015)

The feed rate will be dependent on the motors you choose, surely? That kit is just the structural and mechanical bits. Absolutely right that it's important though, or you end up burning wood and bits because you're not throwing enough heat away with the chips.

You'd need to add a controller and a set of decent steppers or servos to that kit - based on how good the OPPB I bought from them was I'd suggest:

http://www.diycnc.co.uk/cnc-systems.html

You'll also need a spindle (or a router) - Bosch palm router or GMF1400CE are good bets because you can get balanced high precision collets for them from PreciseBits, though if you can afford a proper spindle that has huge advantages (my next upgrade). Then a control application such as Mach3, a CAM processor and a CAD client if you don't have them.


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## sploo (11 Sep 2015)

Sporky McGuffin":1tw3htge said:


> The feed rate will be dependent on the motors you choose, surely?


That's true, but the strength/rigidity of the frame dictates what motors you could use, as well as the power of the spindle (which will be dictated by the ability of the machine to carry a large/heavy spindle). Even with the K2 I found that a lot of feeds and speeds recommendations for various cutting bits and materials aren't really possible, as I'd need more HP to manage the required feed speed. That said, I could get a proper spindle, which I could run at a slower RPM and scale the recommended feed speed accordingly.


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## Inoffthered (7 Oct 2015)

Apologies for not responding to the original post sooner but I have an XCarve, bought from Robbosavvy and now up and working quite well.
Anyone who has been on the Inventables website forum will read about the various issues with the machine and although I have had a few frustrating moments I am now quite pleased with it.

I bought the standard spindle but it failed within a few days. I think Inventables were sold a bad batch but their response was brilliant. There was a no quibble offer to replace or refund. I opted for a Dewalt mount and i now use a router instead of the original spindle and it is much more powerful imho.

Setting the machine up and adjusting the belt tensions takes a bit of trial and error but, having assembled the machine from boxes of bits I feel I have a better idea of how it works.

Although the Carve has its own CNC software (Easel...which is improving and developing every week) I have opted to use VCarve (on a microsoft partition on my Mac) saving tools paths as a file on a stick which I then drop into Chillipeppr to communicate with the XC. I find this works quite well. for simpler projects Easel is perfectly adequate and Inventables seem to be adding bits to it weekly, e.g. gear generator, inlay generator etc.

Overall I am quite pleased with the Xcarve and am building a long list of things to have a go at.


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## Jmac80 (25 Oct 2015)

Hi Inoffthered
Are you still enjoying the router? Any pics of stuff you created? ready to sell me it lol 



Inoffthered":19uxu3ji said:


> Apologies for not responding to the original post sooner but I have an XCarve, bought from Robbosavvy and now up and working quite well.
> Anyone who has been on the Inventables website forum will read about the various issues with the machine and although I have had a few frustrating moments I am now quite pleased with it.
> 
> I bought the standard spindle but it failed within a few days. I think Inventables were sold a bad batch but their response was brilliant. There was a no quibble offer to replace or refund. I opted for a Dewalt mount and i now use a router instead of the original spindle and it is much more powerful imho.
> ...


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## Jmac80 (26 Oct 2015)

What do you all think of this one compared to the xcarve?
X6-2200L http://www.omiocnc.com/x6-2200l-3a/


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## Sporky McGuffin (26 Oct 2015)

It _looks_ a lot more rigid, which is always a good thing. Or, rather, being more rigid is a good thing.


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## Jmac80 (26 Oct 2015)

Fast reply thanks 
They are meant to be the best of the Chinese ones.
The advantage i see with the xcarve is bed size for larger projects and maybe ease of use?
But as you say this one looks a lot more rigid and a much more powerful spindle that seams to be (by videos) heaps quieter than my dewalt router which would be mounted on a xcarve... wow that things scream!
what to do...... ?


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## sploo (26 Oct 2015)

Jmac80":2tec0gp5 said:


> What do you all think of this one compared to the xcarve?
> X6-2200L http://www.omiocnc.com/x6-2200l-3a/


Working area isn't that large - so be certain you won't find it restrictive.

A water cooled spindle is a big positive, but remember there will need to be a tank and pump somewhere for the water.

$2200 with a spindle seems very low to me - my K2 KG3925, without a spindle, was over $4000, and that was 10 years ago. It is using servos not steppers though. Perhaps the tech has just gotten way cheaper over the years.


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## sploo (26 Oct 2015)

Jmac80":38j2phle said:


> Fast reply thanks
> They are meant to be the best of the Chinese ones.
> The advantage i see with the xcarve is bed size for larger projects and maybe ease of use?
> But as you say this one looks a lot more rigid and a much more powerful spindle that seams to be (by videos) heaps quieter than my dewalt router which would be mounted on a xcarve... wow that things scream!
> what to do...... ?


Yea, a water cooled spindle should be much quieter and hopefully have lower runout than a router. A VFD should also mean you can run lower spindle rpm whilst still getting good power (unlike many routers). If you look at recommended feeds and speeds rates for many cutters, the hobbyist machines can't move fast enough (as they're not strong enough/spindle underpowered) so you end up with too high rpm with a router - thus a spindle is a nice feature.


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## Sporky McGuffin (26 Oct 2015)

I'd probably build from scratch if I upgraded - but I appreciate that's a bit like the recommendations that people buy ol dindustrial machinery and recondition it. Definitely good results, but perhaps a bit much for a first purchase.

As sploo says, do consider whether the working area is large enough - my K2 is a 4' x 2' bed and that's been enough for most projects. My Bundgard is a lot smaller and that's really hampered its usefulness.


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## Jmac80 (26 Oct 2015)

So all in all with postage it works out a few hundred pound more than an xcarve.
I take it you would both rather a x6-2200l over the xcarve?


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## Jelly (26 Oct 2015)

custard":1sszrtyl said:


> RobCee":1sszrtyl said:
> 
> 
> > So far, I have used it to machine the following materials:
> ...



I'm honestly struggling to work out if you're being serious or deeply sarcastic...

I've used CNC routers & milling Machines before and can see their worth for doing volume production runs of complex shapes, but if you're doing short runs and one off work I struggle to see the advantage in all that the time invested in making a solid model, resolving issues with the toolpaths and order of operations in your CAM programming, running a test, tweaking the CAM Program and still being limited by tooling constraints.

I will say that this is hardly a revolution, Wadkin's vast machine tool range was founded off the back of their Pattern Miller machine and released an NC version of the same in 1968, so the option to use a 5 axis numerically controlled milling machine has existed for 47 years, and to use a manual version of the same has existed for getting on 92 years...

I like CAD-CAM and it has definitely changed the world forever, but I struggle to see that they have value and applicability outside production environments... I know several very high tech companies I deal with at work have the same outlook and keep an array of manual toolroom machines and the skills to use them available as it's quicker and easier to achieve a fine tolerance on a one-off or prototype that way.

Your years of skill and experience may well be faster if you want to achieve the very finest results!


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## Sporky McGuffin (26 Oct 2015)

Jmac80":1jjva637 said:


> I take it you would both rather a x6-2200l over the xcarve?



Based on what little I know of the two, the former looks much more rigid which is a key consideration. What do you want to do with it?


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## Ram64 (26 Oct 2015)

Hi James,
Take a look at www.store.amberspyglass.co.uk 
They supply a Shapeoko2 clone DIY self assembly machine which comes in a stock size or configurable sizes to suit. I too am looking to self build and am in a queue awaiting ordering information for a machine kit.

I have no affiliation with the company.

Cheers Nigel


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## Jmac80 (26 Oct 2015)

Sporky McGuffin":2mjnmyex said:


> Jmac80":2mjnmyex said:
> 
> 
> > I take it you would both rather a x6-2200l over the xcarve?
> ...



It's primarily for hobby use making wood signs in hardwood and softwood, also cutting small shapes in fairly thin 1.5mm - 3mm aluminium sheet.
Want to learn how to do it as it has always interested me and who knows where it will lead to in the future


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## Jmac80 (26 Oct 2015)

Ram64":301q47s0 said:


> Hi James,
> Take a look at http://www.store.amberspyglass.co.uk
> They supply a Shapeoko2 clone DIY self assembly machine which comes in a stock size or configurable sizes to suit. I too am looking to self build and am in a queue awaiting ordering information for a machine kit.
> 
> ...



Thanks Nigel
Off for a look now.


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## Jmac80 (26 Oct 2015)

This seems a pretty good review as the guy already has a cnc machine.
https://youtu.be/sE6oabieqYI?t=300 review is at 5minutes in.
I notice a lot of the wood workers that were given them on youtube all rate it fairly highly but to me it seems like they are a bit more excited with their new toy and the potential possibilities, it's good to hear from current cnc router owners.


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## Inoffthered (27 Oct 2015)

Jmac80 said:


> Hi Inoffthered
> Are you still enjoying the router? Any pics of stuff you created? ready to sell me it lol
> 
> Yes all good with the XCarve. A bit of a steep learning curve with Chillipeppr and VCarve, not least because I use a Mac and so have installed VCarve on a Microsoft partition on the Mac. I work on projects in VCarve then save the toolpath to a memory stick. Then, back in Mac mode, its just a case of dragging and dropping the cutting file off the stick onto chillipeppr , zeroing the XC, pressing go and away it carves.
> ...


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## Jmac80 (27 Oct 2015)

Inoffthered":2k5hr44t said:


> size of cutting bed would be restrictive.



Yes that bothers me also.
I want to do largish wood signs.
After a lot of reading and viewing up options i will get the fully loaded x-carve..
Here are my reasons:

I already have the dewalt router
It's about £500 cheaper after shipping was added to the chinese one and then i may still get 2-300 pound import charges.
There is so many people that have it with plenty of walkthrough videos for newbs.
More windows 10 compatible than the Chinese cnc.
Larger cut size.
Thriving forums with lots of support for newbs.
It will be good for learning the basics.

Thanks all


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## sploo (28 Oct 2015)

Jmac80":2mll238l said:


> So all in all with postage it works out a few hundred pound more than an xcarve.
> I take it you would both rather a x6-2200l over the xcarve?


TBH I've not looked into either machine deeply enough to feel confident to make a recommendation. From what I've seen of the X-Carve it looks to have very exposed bearings (as opposed to sealed linear sliders). That might cause issues if you're creating a large volume of dust and chips and they start to foul the rails (i.e. good extraction and keeping the machine clean will be a must).




Jelly":2mll238l said:


> I've used CNC routers & milling Machines before and can see their worth for doing volume production runs of complex shapes, but if you're doing short runs and one off work I struggle to see the advantage in all that the time invested in making a solid model, resolving issues with the toolpaths and order of operations in your CAM programming, running a test, tweaking the CAM Program and still being limited by tooling constraints.


Lots of good points in your post there.

I mostly used mine for producing loudspeaker panels (so at minimum you're producing two of each panel, even if each panel is unique to that cabinet).

I think that even for low volume work, if you're needing to do a lot of carefully measured cuts (many dados, rebates, pockets and circular cut-outs) then the CAD+CAM+machine set up time can be worth it. However I agree that the benefit really comes from making lots of an item.

The accuracy can be a useful tool though; I've sometimes used CNC to produce templates and cutting guides to aid manual cutting, and I think it's well suited to that.




Jmac80":2mll238l said:


> It's primarily for hobby use making wood signs in hardwood and softwood, also cutting small shapes in fairly thin 1.5mm - 3mm aluminium sheet.
> Want to learn how to do it as it has always interested me and who knows where it will lead to in the future


For sign making you'll really want something with as large a working area as possible. I've not used VCarve (other than a test of the trial version a long time ago) but I understand it's very good for that sort of work. Not cheap though.




Inoffthered":2mll238l said:


> Yes all good with the XCarve. A bit of a steep learning curve with Chillipeppr and VCarve, not least because I use a Mac and so have installed VCarve on a Microsoft partition on the Mac. I work on projects in VCarve then save the toolpath to a memory stick. Then, back in Mac mode, its just a case of dragging and dropping the cutting file off the stick onto chillipeppr , zeroing the XC, pressing go and away it carves.


What's your gut feel with VCarve? I keep looking at it (not just for lettering, but now as a replacement for my current 2D/2.5D CAM software), but keep being put off by the price.




Jmac80":2mll238l said:


> After a lot of reading and viewing up options i will get the fully loaded x-carve..
> Here are my reasons:
> 
> I already have the dewalt router
> ...


Congrats. I do think the widely available support is a good factor; even when K2 were in business the support was patchy, and on forums there were far more questions than answers, so a large community of users will be helpful.

You could later update it with a spindle. I'm not recommending this one in particular, but a friend bought a very similar eBay/Chinese model and he's quite happy with it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-ER20-WATE ... 0748327119


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## Sporky McGuffin (28 Oct 2015)

sploo":2nf6p9br said:


> even when K2 were in business the support was patchy



Something of an understatement!

On the timesaving front, I did a lot of guitar fretboards with mine. All different radii, different scale lengths, numbers of frets, nut and bridge widths and so on. In Rhino3D I could use Grasshopper (parametric modelling system) to input the values above and it'd generate the geometry. Took a day or two to set up, but then each new board took seconds to generate tool paths. I assume Sketchup has a parametric plugin?

Definitely agree on things like jigs.


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## sploo (28 Oct 2015)

Sporky McGuffin":2sfg0eye said:


> sploo":2sfg0eye said:
> 
> 
> > even when K2 were in business the support was patchy
> ...


*LOL* K2 were a bit strange. I once phoned them with an issue and they were great - even spending time on the phone to go over some tips.

However, there were pretty much no instructions with the machine, and my settings for Mach were largely modified from a copy of a config file someone posted on a forum. Little things like the charge pump being rather important, but something a noob would never guess.

I have subsequently had issues with the Gecko G320 units, and whilst their service is good I don't entirely trust the system.

Guitar building is a great use of CNC. I've never actually done any modelling for the CNC using SketchUp though; mostly it's been an ancient version of AutoCAD (and before that, free alternatives) and a rather good (and very cheap) 2D/2.5D CAM program called SheetCAM.


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