# DC's ruler trick with a LV MKII honing guide ...



## gidon (8 Jul 2008)

Karl's post on back bevels has prompted to post my solution for applying DC's ruler trick with a plane blade without taking it out of the honing guide:





The guide simply pivots on the back of the honing guide and the small back bevel is dictated by the extension of the blade and the height of the polishing stone. You simply need a planed piece of timber to rest your polishing stone on - a rough measurement and small amount of trial and error will give you the correct thickness. The beauty is unlike with the ruler trick the back bevel angle will remain the same where ever you rub the back of the blade on the stone .
I know it's simple but always bugged me taking the blade out of the jig to apply the ruler trick.
Cheers
Gidon


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## wizer (8 Jul 2008)

Thanks gidon, I'm still learning every day. I have that honing guide. Will a back bevel work with a spokeshave blade? What happens with cambered blades?


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## woodbloke (8 Jul 2008)

I use an Eclipse clone guide and with the thicker blades there's no need to take it out of the guide. The ruler I use is an old, very thin sprung steel R&C jobbie that I got from PFT some time ago. I locate it on a couple of brass pins at either end of the polishing stone so it doesn't slip and slide around :evil: when I'm doing the flat side of a plane blade...your solution for the Veritas Mk II is a neat one though :wink: - Rob


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## gidon (8 Jul 2008)

Wizer
The only purpose of the ruler trick is to ensure the area just behind the blade is polished and that any minute burr is removed. Will work on any plane blade but shouldn't be used for chisels where you want the back perfectly flat to register your cut.
Cheers
Gidon


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## Paul Chapman (8 Jul 2008)

Excellent idea, Gidon - and by varying the height of the surface the guide runs on, you could go from ruler trick to full-blown back bevel.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (8 Jul 2008)

...and while we're looking at MrC's ruler trick...what's happened to him, he hasn't posted since before West Dean? - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (8 Jul 2008)

Perhaps we ought to PM him - he'd enjoy all this stuff about back bevels :wink: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## gidon (8 Jul 2008)

Thanks Paul - yep steeper back bevels possible too but not experimented much with that. 
Rob - yes the Eclipse guide is a handy little thing - still find the clamping mechanism on the LV is far from perfect - starting to hone with the chisel or (less frequently) the plane blade askew is very very frustrating!! Think Rob Lee could improve things somewhat there if he looked at the Tormek straight jig clamping mechanism . 
Cheers
Gidon


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## Paul Chapman (8 Jul 2008)

gidon":3gzl07ck said:


> starting to hone with the chisel or (less frequently) the plane blade askew is very very frustrating!!



I still think the best way to hold chisels is so that the jig registers from the flat side while clamping the chisel at the sides - as in the David Charlesworth modified Eclipse. I think Rob has a good photo of his somewhere (I would post a photo of mine but didn't do the mod so neatly  ). I would have thought it possible for Rob Lee's people to come up with a modification for chisels - particularly very narrow ones - which could be attached to the jig. 

I don't get any trouble with my Veritas Mk2 and plane blades. In fact I think the clamping arrangement is great for plane blades.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (8 Jul 2008)

Paul - I'll post a pic of my MrC modified Eclipse clone tonight (no access to Pbucket at the moment, at work) provided and here's the big _if_...AOHell is working (which is wern't last night :evil: ) - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (8 Jul 2008)

woodbloke":xoiykkr7 said:


> ...AOHell



Good name from my memories of it.......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## newt (8 Jul 2008)

Gidon interesting solution


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## gidon (8 Jul 2008)

Thanks Pete.
Paul - yes it's only chisels that I have a problem with clamping in the LV - and even then it's not _all _chisels. 
Don't know the DC modification to the eclipse guide - have heard it mentioned - is it in one of his books? I have the first two - will maybe take a look.
Cheers
Gidon


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## Paul Chapman (9 Jul 2008)

Hi Gidon

I'd photograph mine with a chisel in it but I haven't a camera available at the moment. However, I found a photo of Rob's







You can get the general idea from this. You fit two pieces of thin metal to the top of the jig - Rob used srews in tapped holes but I cocked up mine so used superglue  You can then register the flat side of the chisel blade to the underside of those pieces of metal. It's still possible to clamp a plane blade in it the normal way.

Hope that's clear. Will try to do some more photos later.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Paul Chapman (9 Jul 2008)

Gidon, thinking about this a bit more and looking at your photo again, the problem with chisels slipping in the LV Mk2 jig is down to the clamping bar. The chisel registers off the flat side - what it needs is something to replace the clamping bar so that the chisel is clamped by its sides. Perhaps we should suggest that to Rob Lee :-k 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## gidon (9 Jul 2008)

Paul
Haven't seen Rob here for some time unfortunately. Even some bigger tightening knobs would help with clamping pressure. And the choice of finish on the clamping bar is a little smooth - I tried sticking some sandpaper on the clamping bar to no avail .
Thanks for the pic of the eclipse - have a couple of eclipse guards (dunno why!) - may try it on one of them
Cheers
Gidon


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## Paul Chapman (9 Jul 2008)

gidon":23eiri09 said:


> Paul
> Haven't seen Rob here for some time unfortunately. Even some bigger tightening knobs would help with clamping pressure.



I think Rob is having some problems with his ISP.

I think the problem when clamping narrow chisels is that the knobs clamp the bar at the ends. This will cause the pressure to be at the ends and the more you tighten them, the more the bar will tend to bend and give less pressure at the centre where the chisel is. In addition, with a bevel edge chisel there is only a very narrow piece of the chisel for the clamping bar to press down on.

The Eclipse-style guide overcomes this by clamping the chisel by its sides.

The Veritas Mk2 is my first choice for plane blades, where the clamping bar works very well but for chisels, particularly bevel edge ones, I think the modified Eclipse-style jig has it beaten.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## gidon (9 Jul 2008)

Agree - the eclipse is better for chisels really. Maybe the clamping bar on the LV needs to be stiffened? If you try the Tormek jig - it is able to exert far more pressure.
Was referring to Rob Lee in the above message - not seen him for a loong time.
Cheers
Gidon


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## Paul Chapman (9 Jul 2008)

gidon":kknapwyb said:


> Was referring to Rob Lee in the above message - not seen him for a loong time.



Sorry, got the wrong one  :lol: 

He's been on the 'other side' a few times - might drop him a PM :-k 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Harbo (9 Jul 2008)

The Eclipse mods are in David's 3rd book page 83.

I am glad somebody else is finding the Veritas holding mechanism far from perfect but don't tell Tony  

The Kell Type II jig holds by the side too.

Rod


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## Benchwayze (9 Jul 2008)

I was thinking of trying this 'back-bevel' idea on an old plane I am fettling. :-k But each time I try to put the bevel on the blade, I am gripped by a strange paralysis. 

I can only describe it as the kind of reluctance I would feel towards using a hammer on the wooden handles of a chisel. It just doesn't seem the right thing to do to a beatifully honed plane-iron. 
I appreciate that the back bevel is small, but why go to all the trouble of achieving a mirror finish on the back of the iron, only to undo the work by turning the cutting-edge into one that you'd find on a cold-chisel? :? 

Maybe I am a dinosaur, but I need to be convinced, before I try it. 


John


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## Paul Chapman (9 Jul 2008)

Benchwayze":mg9s8ir9 said:


> I need to be convinced, before I try it.



It reduces tear-out so you only need to use it if that's what you are getting. Best if you have two blades - one honed normally and one with a back bevel which you can pop into your plane when you need it. Or you could use a scraper instead, then you need not do it at all......

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## gidon (9 Jul 2008)

John
Not sure if you're talking about a real back bevel - or the DC ruler trick which is not trying to create a back bevel per se but ensuring the blade is polished in just the right place (creating a small back bevel :?)? Either way - if you make it very small and it makes no difference, you can always grind it away . 
Cheers
Gidon


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## Paul Chapman (9 Jul 2008)

Hi Gidon, 

Here are some more photos, as promised.

On the left is an Eclipse jig and on the right a modified one. The two pieces of thin aluminium were fixed on with superglue







The normal way of holding a bevel edge chisel in the jig is to grip it in the two grooves. However, the way the bevels are ground on the sides of bevel edge chisels varies a lot so this method of gripping gives variable and unsatisfactory results (ie the chisels don't fit in the slots at all well)






With the modified jig this problem is overcome because the flat side of the blade is registered against the underside of the aluminium and the sides of the chisel are gripped by the sides of the jig (not the grooves)






In order to fit narrower chisels, I will have to file down the pieces of aluminium or I might make another one with narrower pieces and keep this one for wider chisels.

Hope this helps

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## dennis (9 Jul 2008)

Paul

Could you not fashion some packers to go either side of a narrow chisel.

Dennis


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## Paul Chapman (9 Jul 2008)

dennis":20f0q69p said:


> Paul
> 
> Could you not fashion some packers to go either side of a narrow chisel.
> 
> Dennis



Possibly - but I guess you would have too many bits to hold and not enough hands :lol: Rob (Woodbloke) has made his so that it takes quite narrow chisels and it works well, so I think filing down the aluminium pieces is the best way. 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## gidon (9 Jul 2008)

Many thanks Paul - might just have to try that ...
Cheers
Gidon


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## woodbloke (10 Jul 2008)

After having got back on line again after having been dumped by AOHell a few days ago...Pauls pic is a good one. Those two bits of aluminium are epoxied and screwed in place. Note also that the body of the guide has been filed away to accommodate chisels...I can go down to 6mm but the smallest size has to be done in a grimmer way :wink: . Because the chisels sit lower in the guide than a plane blade (wot sits on top) the registration distances on the 'bench hook' for each are considerably different:






I use a honed angle of 30 deg on the LN chisels and BD planes (with a 32 deg micro-bevel as seen in the pic) and you can see from the pic that there's about a 6mm difference in the registration distance for a 30deg set - Rob


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## ivan (10 Jul 2008)

You can easily bend the clamp bar on the Mk 2 Veritas guide with the standard brass knobs! Jap chisels are difficult as the back is hand forged and not // to the polished side. Once bent, the clamp bar will grip less well requiring more pressure.... I straightened mine but a repeat effort might break it, so I use the Kell for Jap chisels, grips very well but not comfortable to grind as very short extension.

The new Tormek straight jig also grips well but does have the advantage of blade-side registration; the veritas wouldn't like this so much, blade really needs to be ~ central.


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## jonbikebod (10 Jul 2008)

Benchwayze":27w7ntf2 said:


> II can only describe it as the kind of reluctance I would feel towards using a hammer on the wooden handles of a chisel.
> 
> 
> John


I am with you on that John having restored many old blades to flatness that had this feature due to curved oil stones (I always believed), so know it takes a entirely disproportionate amount of metal removal to get back to square one. I took the bevel up route and have never looked back.
Jon.


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## Harbo (10 Jul 2008)

I see Bridge City have brought out a new honing guide with a single bolt holding mechanism (similar to Veritas Mk I's?)

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/Products/HG-1+Honing+Guide+and+SUG-1+Set-Up+Gauge+Bundle

Rod


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## Paul Chapman (10 Jul 2008)

It looks good, Rod, and has some nice features but I reckon it would still struggle with bevel edge chisels - and, blimey, it costs more than a Wenzloff saw :shock: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## lurker (11 Jul 2008)

Bloody hell Rod! 
My eyes are watering
I'll stick to my eclipse clone I think


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## gidon (11 Jul 2008)

Yikes that's pricey.
Thanks Rob - glad you're back online .
Cheers
Gidon


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