# kitchen worktop wood for garden furniture



## nicholaswebb (6 Aug 2012)

Hello there,

i am pretty new to woodworking, so please excuse any daftness within my questions!

I want to make a garden table and bench set from hardwood, and the cheapest way of buying the wood is to use kitchen worktop wood - beech specifically. This would also help because the worktop wood they sell is wide enough and precise enough that it will hopefully help with the design i am thinking.

Is this a ridiculous idea? If not, what wood be the best way to protect it from splitting and warping once i have made it? Im happy to paint it if that wood help - it doesnt need to remain the natural colour.
thanks, looking forward to your responses!

nick


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## Harbo (6 Aug 2012)

Beech is not very durable outside.
Maybe OK if you keep it covered during bad weather?

Rod


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## nicholaswebb (6 Aug 2012)

Hi,

Thanks for repyling Rod.

I will definately be buying an outdoor cover for it. Otherwise, do you think just some ronseal type outdoor stain?


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## Harbo (6 Aug 2012)

I find Osmo UV Protection oil works best on my outdoor stuff.

Rod


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## doctor Bob (6 Aug 2012)

No way will a kitchen worktop of any variety last outside whatever you put on it or around it (except a house).


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Aug 2012)

doctor Bob":7vvg0pog said:


> No way will a kitchen worktop of any variety last outside whatever you put on it or around it (except a house).



Beech worktops are rubbish, even surrounded by houses!


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Aug 2012)

Any kitchen workshop outside is lunacy - don't do it!
Most of them aren't any good for kitchens.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Aug 2012)

Any kitchen workshop outside is lunacy - don't do it!
Most of them aren't any good for kitchens.


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## nicholaswebb (7 Aug 2012)

This is bad news!!! - why are they so bad? Can you be gentle as I've already bought the wood and made the table and benches...and then thought to check here afterwards! My girlfriend is not going to be happy.


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## woodbrains (7 Aug 2012)

Hello,

Beech, I'm afraid is a no-no outside. Not only is it perishable, it has wide swings of seasonal movement, so any coatings you put on, will just flake off. The glue used by KW manufacturers would not stand up to the weather, either.

Can you not take the worktop back to the supplier? Even if there is some handling charge incurred, it would be better to take the hit, rather than lose the wood to the weather, which will be inevitable, I'm afraid.

Take a look at garden furniture, made either commercially or bespoke. You will not find solid wood tops, as the seasonal movement across a wide slab is just too much for the wood to take, even water resistant timbers like teak. The reason table tops are made from narrow slats is not just fashion, it is a structural design imperative, that has been borne out of experience.

The most suitable timber for outdoors is probably oak, if one takes into account cost, Iroko is good too. Teak is probably most suitable, but prohibitively expensive, but all in small dimensions and regularly oiled.

Sorry I can't be more positive.

Mike.


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## woodbrains (7 Aug 2012)

Sorry, You have already used the wood, so no returns.

Can you build a conservatory and use them there?!

Mike.


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## nicholaswebb (7 Aug 2012)

Haha! maybe. Great excuse for more woodwork! I'm not sure I can swing that though. I'm going to rout a load of slats into it (a bit like this- 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&cl ... lated#i=18)

So hopefully that will give it a bit less chance of warping...

Otherwise I guess I'll just have to cover it all the time...and watch it rot


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## Pete W (7 Aug 2012)

If you've already built them, I'd seal the end-grain with clear epoxy and put a couple/three coats of quality outdoor oil-based finish on them and call it good. Assuming you've allowed for wood movement in the design of the top, and you keep the end-grain of the legs out of the water, I can't see too many problems. Be prepared to renew the finish annually and I reckon you'll get years of use out of them.

Even unprotected pine will last a couple of years outdoors.


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## nicholaswebb (7 Aug 2012)

Thanks, that sounds more like it!! Great advice..(although I do appreciate the other replies too - just not what I wanted to hear!)

I have just done the mortise and tenons so far- I was going to glue it up with gorilla glue, but I assume that would not allow for movement?? Do you think screws would be better? I was planning on putting some rubber feet on the legs to keep them out the water..


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## Pete W (7 Aug 2012)

See this for attaching table tops:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00173.asp

The key thing is to allow the top to move across the width - if you fix it tightly to the base something somewhere is going to split.


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## woodbrains (7 Aug 2012)

Pete W":2qtp1cuc said:


> See this for attaching table tops:
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00173.asp
> 
> The key thing is to allow the top to move across the width - if you fix it tightly to the base something somewhere is going to split.



Hello,

This is completely academic in this situation. The top will move more than the film finish will, causing it to fail, within one seasonal cycle I'm afraid. Oil is no good either, the wood has to be reasonably waterproof already for this to work. 

Gorrilla glue is a good choice for the joinery, it was made for such applications and will be flexible enough for the joinery, but this is the only good aspect of the project, I'm afraid.

Can't you use the table for a good work bench for future projects, in your garage or shed? It is the best way to mitigate the situation, you will be buying/making new garden furniture at some point soon. At least you won't be scrapping your work completely, if you find an alternative use.

Incidentally, pine can in no way be compared to beech for some sort of comparison to durability. Low density softwoods do not have the wide seasonal swing in movement as high density hard wood. To make things worse, beech is one of the worst hardwoods in this respect and will pull itself apart. Pine also cotains a fair amount of resin, which gives it some protection, 'till it has leached out with the weather. Beech is devoid of any resin, or any tannin either, to give it any antiseptic properties. The finish will fail, water ingress will be rapid, leading to black staining, which is caused by bacterial and fungal attack. The fungus in question is dry rot and is airborne. Beech is particularly suseptable to it, you may have heard of spalted beech, it is the cause of this. It won't take long to turn the wood to mush, but it would have looked so awful much before this to be around for you to see.

Again, sorry, but news you like to hear is not going to make it true.

Mike.


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## woodbrains (7 Aug 2012)

Pete W":3autltel said:


> See this for attaching table tops:
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00173.asp
> 
> The key thing is to allow the top to move across the width - if you fix it tightly to the base something somewhere is going to split.



Hello,

This is completely academic in this situation. The top will move more than the film finish will, causing it to fail, within one seasonal cycle I'm afraid. Oil is no good either, the wood has to be reasonably waterproof already for this to work. 

Gorrilla glue is a good choice for the joinery, it was made for such applications and will be flexible enough for the joinery, but this is the only good aspect of the project, I'm afraid.

Can't you use the table for a good work bench for future projects, in your garage or shed? It is the best way to mitigate the situation, you will be buying/making new garden furniture at some point soon. At least you won't be scrapping your work completely, if you find an alternative use.

Incidentally, pine can in no way be compared to beech for some sort of comparison to durability. Low density softwoods do not have the wide seasonal swing in movement as high density hard wood. To make things worse, beech is one of the worst hardwoods in this respect and will pull itself apart. Pine also cotains a fair amount of resin, which gives it some protection, 'till it has leached out with the weather. Beech is devoid of any resin, or any tannin either, to give it any antiseptic properties. The finish will fail, water ingress will be rapid, leading to black staining, which is caused by bacterial and fungal attack. The fungus in question is dry rot and is airborne. Beech is particularly suseptable to it, you may have heard of spalted beech, it is the cause of this. It won't take long to turn the wood to mush, but it would have looked so awful much before this to be around for you to see.

Again, sorry, but news you like to hear is not going to make it true.

Mike.


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## Pete W (7 Aug 2012)

woodbrains":znk1hsqp said:


> The top will move more than the film finish will, causing it to fail, within one seasonal cycle I'm afraid. Oil is no good either, the wood has to be reasonably waterproof already for this to work.



Oil isn't a film finish. As for wood needing to be waterproof before an oil finish will work, that's news to me.

Anyway, here's one company offering garden benches in beech:
http://www.edwardbulmer.co.uk/category. ... be72f2a839

Here's another (the bench and tabletop):
http://www.newfromold.co.uk/solid_wood_ ... niture.htm

And another (second from bottom):
http://www.jennycole.co.uk/page2.htm

Nobody's suggesting beech is an ideal wood for outdoor use, but with regular maintenance it'll work for several years.


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## doctor Bob (7 Aug 2012)

Pete W":1p841l24 said:


> Nobody's suggesting beech is an ideal wood for outdoor use, but with regular maintenance it'll work for several years.



It's a kitchen worktop........


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## Sgian Dubh (7 Aug 2012)

woodbrains":2aid7mss said:


> ... The finish will fail, water ingress will be rapid, leading to black staining, which is caused by bacterial and fungal attack. The fungus in question is dry rot and is airborne. Beech is particularly suseptable to it, you may have heard of spalted beech, it is the cause of this. It won't take long to turn the wood to mush, but it would have looked so awful much before this to be around for you to see.
> Mike.


Actually Mike dry rot (_Serpula lacrymans_) is quite a rare fungus in the wild, and it often seems to thrive best in man made conditions. It also has a definite preference for softwoods, hence the severity of dry rot problems in buildings if attacked. The initiation of spore developments requires certain conditions: a suitable food source such as wood, oxygen, warmth, and damp conditions caused by, perhaps, a slow leak in the plumbing that seeps down a wall to woodwork. This causes the MC of the wood to rise over the ‘dry-rot safe’ point of 20% quite quickly and dry rot fungus spores will germinate and grow. Most fungi need higher moisture content than this to develop, but dry rot is able to get going at these comparatively low MC levels. _Serpula lacrymans_ prefers shelter, the sort found in building fabric, and I'd say it's unlikely to be the main attacker of a beechwood furniture item that's outside in the rain and damp.

Another significant characteristic of _Serpula lacrymans _ is that it's a brown rot which makes it unlikely to be a contributory factor in the spalting process. Spalting is caused by an infection by two or more white rots. The different fungi attacking the wood cause different changes in colour and cause varying degrees and types of degradation. In effect these different fungi set up defined territories within the log or board. The black lines mark the edge of the territory each fungus has staked out for itself— it’s a defensive line that other fungi can’t cross. Slainte.

*Edit to say*, that I generally agree with every one in discouraging the use of beech for outdoor use. And a glued up beech kitchen worktop probably wouldn't last long outside unless it's only taken out and used in dry weather.


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## wallace (7 Aug 2012)

When you said worktop, I hope you didn't mean one of those that are made up of lots of little bits all glued togather. I had a spare bit a few years ago and made a top for one of those cast pub tables it was left outside and did not last long before all the little blocks had fallen appart. One good thing is it made lots a pen blanks for the lathe  
Mark


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## woodbrains (7 Aug 2012)

Hello,

This is interesting, Richard and I am sure you are right. However, whatever the fungus I was talking about, and I might have called it the wrong name, is very easy to infect the wood out doors. I have been spalting my own beech this way for years. Whatever I am referring to is found inleaf mould and general decaying garden matter, twigs, roots etc. and will blow around. Covering the table with a tarp, will actually help the fungus along. I use bin liners.

Mike.


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## Sgian Dubh (7 Aug 2012)

woodbrains":g8i3uct6 said:


> Hello, This is interesting, Richard and I am sure you are right. However, whatever the fungus I was talking about, and I might have called it the wrong name, is very easy to infect the wood out doors. Mike.


The problem is Mike that in 2001 it was reckoned there might be something like 13 million different fungi, and yet only ten years earlier in 1991 David Hawksworth, a mycologist at Kew Gardens estimated the world’s fungal diversity at 1.5 million species which was thought at the time to be a radical overestimate. I haven't checked recently to see how much larger the estimates have grown to.

There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of different fungi that might be involved in what might seem to be just the simple decay of vegetable matter and the like, and no doubt many of those fungi look somewhat similar, and different fungi will produce comparable decaying and decayed end products, etc. Slainte.


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## woodbrains (8 Aug 2012)

Sgian Dubh":1vmmn4tj said:


> woodbrains":1vmmn4tj said:
> 
> 
> > Hello, This is interesting, Richard and I am sure you are right. However, whatever the fungus I was talking about, and I might have called it the wrong name, is very easy to infect the wood out doors. Mike.
> ...



Wow, this is a whole new area, which I know little about, but is fascinating all the same. This is the marvellous thing about wood work. there are so many fields which overlap: art, design, architecture, structural engineering, design history, coatings technology....

One thing for sure, beech is not going to fare well, out doors!

Mike.


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## misterfish (9 Aug 2012)

A couple of years ago there was an outside kitchen included in one of the show gardens which I think had a dark hardwood work surface. This was made by Armstrong Jordan - so maybe Doctor Bob could tell you about it.

Misterfish


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## doctor Bob (9 Aug 2012)

The worktop was acroos the back of the kitchen, it was an exotic african hardwood name of which escapes me at present.
Very very dense wood, with a high oil content.


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## feswood (17 Aug 2012)

i would love to see some pics of the bench


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## nicholaswebb (24 Aug 2012)

well..its all made now...i had to go through with it even against the warnings because id started..






im going to paint it or stain it now... what do you think would be best (bearing in mind what you say that nothing will be best!)

Ive tried wood stain, but it looks a bit rubbish...what i really want is a matt finish, but something that will protect it as much as possible..

Ive also tried some water based undercoat, which looks fantastic (hiding the grain which is what i am after for this project)...but then id have to put sating or gloss over it which would ruin the look..

ive got a decent cover for it, and might even store in indoors in winter..

ill put up pictures as it breaks down, to prove you all right!


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## Harbo (24 Aug 2012)

Osmo UV Protection Oil.

Rod


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