# Saw Till Design



## ydb1md (24 Oct 2005)

I checked around this forum (and several of the 'murican boards) looking for a design for a small saw till. I didn't see anything that was what I was after so I came up with something of my own design. I used a 3/4" dowel to support the handle and the usual saw kerf to hold the blade.

Do you usually have your toothed edge facing in or do you support your back saws w/ their backs?

Any others care to share photos of their saw till designs?


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## Noel (24 Oct 2005)

Alas Dave, all mine hang on a hook... More importantly did I notice that you got published recently?

Rgds

Noel


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## ydb1md (24 Oct 2005)

Hi Noel,

Yep, I've been in two magazines recently. Woodwork magazine published one of my tips. I was supposed to be in Popular Woodworking with a tip but they published it as a letter. Thanks for noticing!


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## Noel (24 Oct 2005)

Yup, saw them both. Well done.

Noel


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## MikeW (24 Oct 2005)

Nice benchtop till, Dave!

Mike


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## ydb1md (24 Oct 2005)

MikeW":27r4g6wr said:


> Nice benchtop till, Dave!
> 
> Mike



Thanks Mike! I shopped around a lot before I picked that up from Ikea -- one of the last places that I checked. My wife and I were looking for furniture and I happened to check out their countertops. It's 1-3/4" beech and measures 27" x 72". The best part ? . . . It only cost $139. 

I made the apron (which you can't see here) out of red oak.


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## Jarviser (24 Oct 2005)

I keep mine in racks in a heated tool cupboard under the bench. The L-Ns have their leather cases and the Dorchester has a plastic tooth guard on. I have to take care to put them in the rack carefully since I chipped a corner off the handle of a L-N  All my toys have to be put away after each session - I am very short of space. the whole shop being 6ft x 8ft!




When in use they sit in al all purpose rack at the back of the bench along with in-use chisels and squares.


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## Frank D. (24 Oct 2005)

Nice work Dave. I'll browse through my Woodwork mag, was you letter in the last issue?
Here's my till, just after I finished it. Now I have a few more saws but they all fit except my big bowsaw. The till is hung on a wall with cleats. My larger saws have the teeth pointing outwards but it's up in a corner so I don't bang into anything by accident.


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## ydb1md (24 Oct 2005)

Frank D.":38gfomhr said:


> Nice work Dave. I'll browse through my Woodwork mag, was you letter in the last issue?



Nice till Frank. I'm guessing that the storage drawers at the base also function as the support? Very creative.

Yep, it's the current issue of Woodwork -- the one with John Morris on the cover.


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## bugbear (24 Oct 2005)

> I am very short of space. the whole shop being 6ft x 8ft!



That's even smaller than mine, which can be seen here:
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour.html#photo_tech

BugBear


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## Jarviser (24 Oct 2005)

bugbear":3jb62ltt said:


> That's even smaller than mine,


I would like to have the space to have things like saw tills and wall mounted tool cupboards, and of course there is nowhere for a table saw. But then I have never had anything larger so I don't miss it. On the good side I can heat it with 0.5KW, and for making small boxes etc it's all I need.


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## Chris Knight (24 Oct 2005)

It's great to get all these ideas about tool storage. I am in a never ending struggle with tools vs space.

I don't know who has seen the last page in the latest FWW (The WoodButcher) I got hot under the collar and squirmed in embarassment as I read it!


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## ydb1md (24 Oct 2005)

waterhead37":3j9z43oa said:


> It's great to get all these ideas about tool storage. I am in a never ending struggle with tools vs space.
> 
> I don't know who has seen the last page in the latest FWW (The WoodButcher) I got hot under the collar and squirmed in embarassment as I read it!



I really wasn't sure how to take that article -- or a few others in this month's issue. Every time I read FWW, I get the impression that they're not really sure what direction their magazine should take. Most magazines have a focus that guides their articles and content. FWW seems to flounder with the content and then use high quality, glossy photos and a pretty layout to cover their ineptitude. Can you tell I'm sad that I shelled out for the subscription? :roll:

This is the _only _ magazine I receive where every single month I hope/wish/dream that the next issue might be better.


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## Chris Knight (24 Oct 2005)

Dave,
I think it has its ups and downs and it is definitely in a down at the moment. However, I wouldn't blame it for that article - I just found it horribly accurate as far as I was concerned being honest with myself.

PW gets my vote at the moment as the best all round mag of most interest to most woodworkers.


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## engineer one (25 Oct 2005)

nice tills, as for the magazines, i find that both Wood and PW are good.
have you guys checked the nov issue of PW re the dovetails and cutting with a hand saw articles very useful. and skilfully portrayed.

strangely i find Fine Housebuilding better these days.
paul 8)


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## Alf (25 Oct 2005)

Tsk. My "saw till" is very poor in comparison with these beauties. But on the other hand it was free and instant - albeit temporary. Yep, definitely temporary. Any time in the next 5 - 10 years I'm sure to do something about replacing it...  In a previous life it was a display for tubes of oil paint:






and a close up if you really care. Far from ideal because you have to exercise a good deal of care to avoid knocking the teeth against the metal, but handy for holding other tools waiting attention, as you can see.  

Heck, I'm really teetering on the edge of making some form of tool storage with all this talk. Oh deary me. :-# 

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (25 Oct 2005)

What a remarkable number of backsaws!

I assume (he said, laughing like a drain) that they're all sharpened and tuned (and used) for different purposes...

BugBear


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## Alf (25 Oct 2005)

bugbear":i7dba40k said:


> I assume (he said, laughing like a drain) that they're all sharpened and tuned (and used) for different purposes...


Well apart from the open handled 12" tenon and the 10" brass-backed dovetail that I cocked up when I sharpened it, erm, yes. Just don't ask me about the other ones in the boxes...  

Cheers, Alf

To paraphrase Tom Price; I have this monkey on my back that smacks me on the head whenever I see a back saw.


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## bugbear (25 Oct 2005)

what about the other ones in the boxes?

BugBear


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## Alf (25 Oct 2005)

You asked :roll:

They're rather less cleaned, sharpened and set. 8-[ In fact one is totally sans teeth - but I bought it that way, honest guv! Oh, but I've just remembered there are two, or maybe three, in the tool chest which are all sharp etc, so the balance is definitely on the credit side. Oh yes, no question of that. As long as we don't count the handsaws...

It's not my fault saws are always so darn cheap, is it? The fact they've cost a fortune by the time they're in working order is neither here nor there. 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (25 Oct 2005)

Oh tsk tsk...a _*metal*_ saw till? Oh the shame the saws must feel!

Tell you what, Alf. I'll take them off your hands and even pay the postage costs. :lol: 

Mike,
who has his own "temporary" saw till problem...and a couple stacks of saws. And a box. Or two.


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## Alf (25 Oct 2005)

MikeW":et108wxf said:


> Tell you what, Alf. I'll take them off your hands and even pay the postage costs. :lol:


Mike, you're the soul of generosity, but I couldn't impose on you in such a way. =; :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## ydb1md (25 Oct 2005)

MikeW":1i3nct0z said:


> Mike,
> who has his own "temporary" saw till problem...and a couple stacks of saws. And a box. Or two.



Mike,

I feel for you. You have stacks and boxes of saws? :shock: 

At least you have a cabinetry business where you can justify (rationalize?) your purchases. The rest of have to keep our quantity of tools somewhat reasonable. :roll: 

If you need to make room for Alf's box of saws, I can cover the postage for a box of yours to the east coast.


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## ydb1md (25 Oct 2005)

MikeW":30lsnf33 said:


> Oh tsk tsk...a _*metal*_ saw till? Oh the shame the saws must feel!
> 
> Mike,
> who has his own "temporary" saw till problem...and a couple stacks of saws. And a box. Or two.



Imagine the sorrow those stacked and boxed saws feel ?!  
Never getting to see the light of day . . . . .
Drowning in their own rustiness from that West Coast atmosphere

oh the shame . . . . :lol:


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## MikeW (25 Oct 2005)

Oh, no. No imposition I assure you! 

I'll even send the carrier around to collect them. Say noon tomorrow? :wink: 

Nice bunch of saws, though. 

Isn't "temporary" a really improperly used word when it comes to woodworkers who either have other lives or actually make things? I know it is for me. Knock something up in order to "temporarily" solve an issue (like yesterday). Truth is, unless I have to, it'll remain until I die.

There's a fellow I know who has not in 5 years finished his shop. He has made a couple items for around the house under pressure from his better half, but all his time is consumed with making his shop and shop fixtures.

He has decided he rather enjoys making his shop into what looks like a giant, albeit more open, Studdley tool chest. In 10 more years, though, it might just truly resemble it! This is great for him. Me, I'm too lazy for that. But he does receive great joy from it. Making his storage fixtures more efficient also gives him justification for obtaining more tools, too!

Speaking of saws, time to get to work...

Mike


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## Alf (25 Oct 2005)

ydb1md":27h0yite said:


> The rest of have to keep our quantity of tools somewhat reasonable. :roll:


I won't have such filthy language on this forum! [-( :lol: 

Unfortunately, it's often true. At some point I'm going to _have_ to stop just thinking about rationalising and actually do something about it properly. Dribs and drabs ain't making any impact.  Plus I'm turning into one of those people that used to annoy me intensely when I started - i.e. I'd rant at the magazine/book/monitor with cries of "why d'you have three of those?! I really, really, *need* one to *USE*, and you're sitting on *three* of them?!" I apologise if I have the same effect on anybody else.  What can I say? Make me an offer, I suppose. :? :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (25 Oct 2005)

Hah!


> You have stacks and boxes of saws? At least you have a cabinetry business where you can justify (rationalize?) your purchases. The rest of have to keep our quantity of tools somewhat reasonable.


"Reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder :lol: 

Truth be told, strictly for making stuff, I would only "need" less than 10 saws. Not the ... bunch I have.

The saws are for refurb and selling, or, for cutting up in order to make new saws. The couple dozen that are currently "mine" I have bought for their uniqueness and or utility for ther biz.

And then there are the 20-30 saws that are not mine that are for sharpening, sent by their owners. Half of that biz is from working carpenters who have gotten tired of hardpoint saws and their disposability, or who have a bunch of older saws they use.


> Imagine the sorrow those stacked and boxed saws feel ?!
> Never getting to see the light of day...Drowning in their own rustiness from that West Coast atmosphere


The ones in the boxes are for getting cut into parts for other saws. Imagine how that makes 'em feel!

But no rust. The shop is heated from the house's forced air furnace. Nothing has ever gotten rust on it, unless I failed to wipe off sweat from working. I leak a lot.

Mike


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## ydb1md (25 Oct 2005)

I recently purchased a refurbished Atkins from this gentleman 

http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=woodnut4

In addition to refurbishing, he's made some very nice saws for himself.


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## Anonymous (26 Oct 2005)

Found a small saw till on PW's site.



.

evie


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## bugbear (26 Oct 2005)

Alf said...



> The fact they've cost a fortune by the time they're in working order is neither here nor there.



I'll grant my initial costs to get "set" for saw restoration were high (saw vice, saw set, car boot files at 50p EACH, I tell you, EACH!), but ongoing costs are very low indeed (excluding my time, of course)

Where are spending out?

BugBear (tempter to finally buy some of APTC's vallorbe saw files)


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## Alf (26 Oct 2005)

Well first up I don't have any 50p files, which racks the price up quite a bit.  Especially if it's a retoothing job, as it so often seems to be, when files die like so many moths round a candle. :roll: Then there's the cleaning up sundries as well - for both blade and handle, the magnifying doodah so I can actually see the bally teeth, and so forth. But mainly it's expensive in time - which is a rare commodity and thus not cheap. 

Or to put it another way; if I sell any, please don't any prospective buyer expect to pick it up for pennies like I did, 'cos there's been some on-costs. :roll: :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (26 Oct 2005)

> the magnifying doodah so I can actually see the bally teeth,



Interesting - what do you use?

Lens-on-a-flexi-stalk or visor?

BugBear (who recently shelled out 2.99 on a 4.0 dioptre "ready-spex as a trial)


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## Alf (26 Oct 2005)

Visor. It cost me considerably more than the ones I subsequently saw everywhere _*after*_ I'd bought it, natch. ](*,) I still get on better without it, to be honest, but not for so long at a time.

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (26 Oct 2005)

I bought ready-spex u21 at 4 dipoptre ( at Tesco )

http://www.readyspex.co.uk/products.html

Following ... http://www.bertech.com/product8/magnifi_notes.htm

I get:
Magnification power: 1.333
Total power: 2.333
Focal Length: 10"

I haven't really tried them yet.

BugBear


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## ydb1md (26 Oct 2005)

bugbear":1pr3pinr said:


> I bought ready-spex u21 at 4 dipoptre ( at Tesco )
> 
> http://www.readyspex.co.uk/products.html
> 
> ...



You'll have to give us a review.  I'm looking at the optisight and optivisor by Donegan optical but I'm not sure which magnification to get.

The 15ppi teeth on my saw look reeeaaally small.


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## Anonymous (26 Oct 2005)

I use a magnifying glass on a stalk. It is 3x IIRC.
I lucked out and found the estate sale of a man who owned a sharpening service. There were several boxes of NOS Nicholson files in various sizes so I'm stocked for life for less than $20. :lol:


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## Frank D. (26 Oct 2005)

Roger Nixon":3pf5hmmm said:


> I lucked out and found the estate sale of a man who owned a sharpening service. There were several boxes of NOS Nicholson files in various sizes so I'm stocked for life for less than $20. :lol:


How many gloats like this do you have up your sleeve, Roger? Keep it up and you'll soon take Philly's place as gloatmeister.
Frank


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## Jarviser (26 Oct 2005)

ydb1md":3hhswv9f said:


> The 15ppi teeth on my saw look reeeaaally small.


I know its probably sucking eggs and grannies time, but with my eyesight I always daub permanent black felt tip all along the teeth gullies so I can see which one I filed last, especially if I need to stop and scratch something. When I do the other side I repeat the daubing. I haven't seen that tip in any texts that I have read.
I also use some of those flip up additional specs (I think from Tilgear in UK) on top of prescription safety glasses. (There's no more important safety rule than..... :wink: )


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## Alf (26 Oct 2005)

Jarviser":3aoc4i0s said:


> ydb1md":3aoc4i0s said:
> 
> 
> > The 15ppi teeth on my saw look reeeaaally small.
> ...


Yeah, I do that. Destroys the marker pen, but very effective.

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (26 Oct 2005)

> I know its probably sucking eggs and grannies time, but with my eyesight I always daub permanent black felt tip all along the teeth gullies so I can see which one I filed last, especially if I need to stop and scratch something.



Sadly, to file a saw well, you need to be able to see EXACTLY wether a tooth has been filed _enough,_ which requires vision and judgement WAY below the whole teeth level.

It's hard.

BugBear


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## Jarviser (26 Oct 2005)

bugbear":2u18e86b said:


> It's hard.
> 
> BugBear


I agree, but its even harder if you can't remember which one it was! In any case if its a quick sharpen, rather than a recut, it's nice to be able to give each tooth two light file cuts, and rest every couple of inches, knowing you can start where you left off. I can't see the shape of a 20TPI tooth, but I can see that I have been there..


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## MikeW (26 Oct 2005)

As we drift away from saw till design...

BB mentioned something important and that is sharpening a saw is more than running a file over the teeth, no matter how consistent one is. 

A well filed saw is akin to tuning a plane. One can begin at any level, and nearly any result, and most often make the plane or saw better than it was.

But for different types of work, one can tune the filing to be more/less agressive or smoother in the cut, even for the same number of teeth. Same goes for different types of woods. For someone who is working primarily in softwoods, I would not sharpen the saw the same. For someone new to using a handsaw, I might add a tad more set and more rake on a rip, for instance.

Those and other issues should be taken into account when sharpening a saw...but most likely one can always make any saw better than it was just by sharpening at the same angle as was previously sharpened.

And to come back to the topic...here is one of the saw things (I hesitate to call them tills) I knocked up in order to accomodate a change in the layout of my shop. Another temporary solution--I hope. If for no other reason that I have 3 of these on different walls.

Just a couple boards glued and screwed to the wall. Kerfs into the top board and basically a ledge for the handles.

Mike


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## ydb1md (26 Oct 2005)

MikeW":16wnmb7w said:


> As we drift away from saw till design...
> 
> Just a couple boards glued and screwed to the wall. Kerfs into the top board and basically a ledge for the handles.
> 
> Mike



Was the second, higher, "ledge for the handles" added to allow for shorter saws?


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## MikeW (26 Oct 2005)

> Was the second, higher, "ledge for the handles" added to allow for shorter saws?


Oh Dave, one should not ascribe too much thinking on my part. Lack of planning and "winging" it was the order of the day.

Too hastily knocked up as far as the top board--I didn't measure my shorter saws and so put it a little higher than I sould have.

As for the bottom, well the multi-level was a design feature. Or rather, it became one once some of the saws with longer bottom horns than the couple I used to gauge from were resting on the shelf portion.

The one in the picture was the first of these "temporary" things I made. The other couple were made with a little more thought. Not much, but a little :lol: 

Mike


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## ydb1md (26 Oct 2005)

MikeW":svinxj27 said:


> > Was the second, higher, "ledge for the handles" added to allow for shorter saws?
> 
> 
> Oh Dave, one should not ascribe too much thinking on my part. Lack of planning and "winging" it was the order of the day.
> ...



My saw-storage-thing required some re-engineering after a few days. One of my saws had longer horns than the saw that I designed the rack with. So, I had to add some "feet" to it get things to fit. My newest backsaw was much larger than I thought would be so I had to redesign the kerf board to keep it from falling over backwards. Guess that's why these rapidly knocked up things are our "temporary" shop fixtures. Somehow they hang around the shop much longer than we think they will though . . . :roll:


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## MikeW (26 Oct 2005)

> Guess that's why these rapidly knocked up things are our "temporary" shop fixtures. Somehow they hang around the shop much longer than we think they will though . . . :roll:


LOL--they do hang around a bit. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, I really misapply the term "temporary" as regards most shop fixtures. They get knocked up well enough to be functional and so get used to the point I can't stand it any longer and so begins thinking about a "real" whatever-the-temporary thing is.

I thought I had come to that point on the saw tills. But when push came to shove, I opted for yet another "temporary" sollution. But I am still bugged about it. So I will design a nice one. Once I stop buying some collectable saws anyway. To the horror of some galloots, I do use these collectable saws. I bought them for that purpose.

Oh well. I think the drugs are kicking in enough to go file some saws. I wonder how they'll turn out :lol:

Take care, Mike


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## engineer one (27 Oct 2005)

nice tills guys, but surely they are all temporary.

the first one is just knocked up to meet the present needs, then 
we get more skilful and want something more beautiful, and more
to reflect our newer skills. Then we aim for Studley. but what we do not
know is how long it took Studley to make his box that we now see.

last year i made a new cupboard in the hall of my flat(apartment) to 
hide the hot water cylinder and so on, and then to put my power
tools. once i'd got the 708 dewalt in to this place, i ran out of space.
gawd knows where the hand tools are going to go. Having sharpened 
them, now i need to use them to make their homes.

but like us all, i have this double edged problem, some work is done 
at home, some on site. so what do i build a portable one, that inevitably
gets to be too heavy, so like everybody i end up using a bunch of the 
cases our power tools come in, and a couple of rucksacks to carry the 
hand tools.

then we need a bench at home, do we put tools into that?

the problem is never ending, because just as soon as we get the
first one built something new comes along, and it has to be left out
until we can find another home,or storage facility.

evie made a comment elsewhere about planing full shavings.
surely that depends upon how flat the wood is, not just the
position of the blade? Mike W you know more about that than me.

:wink: 
paul


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## Philly (9 Jan 2006)

Hi All
Well, it only took a few months but here is my upgraded saw till (made with ideas gleaned from you talented lot :lol: ) Constructed from the finest hand picked materials (shop scrap), here it is.....




Gives me a little more room for new tools, if any ever come along....  
Philly


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## ydb1md (9 Jan 2006)

Nice till Phil! 

I was looking at your shop shots -- the new acquisitions haven't slowed down, have they? Did you get some nice stuff for Christmas?

Good pictures, all in all, of the projects and tools. But, you need to get a better picture of the pink Princess scooter. 






Guess you didn't take over the whole two-car garage. :shock: :lol:


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## Philly (9 Jan 2006)

Ouch :roll: 
Got me there Dave :lol: 
Here's an updated view-I've put all my machinery in one half of the double garage that is my workshop. The table saw, router table and jointer are bunched together as an island, the rest are around the perimeter. Seems to be working out so far (lets hope I don't have any 12 foot planks to rip down.....)








All my hand tools, the bench and a nice size assembly area are in the other half.
New tools??? Um.... L-N 140N, the Adria tenon saw, Stanley 71. At least that's all I can remember at the moment. Oh, I have a nice Diston winging its way from the States as we speak, too. \/ 
Pics to follow,
Best regards
Philly


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## JesseM (10 Jan 2006)

waterhead37":13kyw8c7 said:


> Dave,
> I think it has its ups and downs and it is definitely in a down at the moment. However, I wouldn't blame it for that article - I just found it horribly accurate as far as I was concerned being honest with myself.


Same here. I wonder if they did that to see how people would react. They had reader feedback this month that had 3 people's comments with 3 completely different viewpoints.


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## ydb1md (10 Jan 2006)

JesseM":1yuhlypl said:


> waterhead37":1yuhlypl said:
> 
> 
> > Dave,
> ...



They certainly have their ups and downs -- as all magazines do. They had a good issue this month. Next month should be even better -- they're publishing one of my tips!


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## ydb1md (10 Jan 2006)

Philly":3pkzuo89 said:


> Ouch :roll:
> Got me there Dave :lol:
> Philly



Nah, I was only yanking your chain Philly. More than a few of us are envious of your tool collection, err selection. 

I did like the shots of your projects. The jewelry boxes gave me some ideas. Are they maple?

I'll have to post some pics of my daughter's "castle bed" when I get it finished.


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## Philly (10 Jan 2006)

Close-sycamore, Dave.
http://www.philsville.co.uk/offcut_box.htm
Philly


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