# Sad story of my uneven bench top



## SMALMALEKI

I am planing to flatten my bench top this weekend. Here is the story. My bench tops were the very first laminating projects I did. I made couple of mistakes and ended up with boards which were twisted and some had jumped up. 
Keep it short I flattened one side and left the underneath as it was. 
Now my two part of bench top although individually flat and square but they are not in one plane . 

I am planing on flattening it this weekend. I am using two parallel rails and router flattening jig. 

Can I use winding sticks to make them co-plane?


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## SMALMALEKI

This is the method I am using.


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## novocaine

Pin a sting form diagonol from corner to corner of the rails. Then do it the other way.
Adjust till the string just touches in the middle. You are now close enough to in wind to jave at it.


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## SMALMALEKI

novocaine said:


> Pin a sting form diagonol from corner to corner of the rails. Then do it the other way.
> Adjust till the string just touches in the middle. You are now close enough to in wind to jave at it.


That’s the way this guy does. But as using a winding stick is more familiar for me I was thinking of doing what I know rather than something new. 
would it work or not? I don’t know.


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## novocaine

Oh. He does that in the video. Sorry, didnt watch it, he irritates me. Just flicked through it now.

Yes you could use winding sticks. The string will be quicker.


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## Bm101

An example of what Novocaine is explaining is shown here. 
Check the comments of Herman Melville for an explanation of level and flat by the poster.

I used two metal bars to do mine and just clamped them up level for the jig. Beauty is they can also be used for cramps with heads attached and in a few years I can use them again. In the meantime they hang up in the roofspace out the way. As long as the bench is falt it doesn't bother me if its a mill or two higher at one end. I'm not a cnc machine.


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## Jacob

Wheeling out the old jpg again sorry! One big advantage of the trad British bench is ease of flattening. Plane the front beam flat then plane the apron upstand at the back, to match.


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## SMALMALEKI

Bm101 said:


> An example of what Novocaine is explaining is shown here.
> Check the comments of Herman Melville for an explanation of level and flat by the poster.
> 
> I used two metal bars to do mine and just clamped them up level for the jig. Beauty is they can also be used for cramps with heads attached and in a few years I can use them again. In the meantime they hang up in the roofspace out the way. As long as the bench is falt it doesn't bother me if its a mill or two higher at one end. I'm not a cnc machine.




I must be very tired after 5th long day shifts. Could you explain how did you use two metal bars as a jig?
I can get two L shaped profile from shop in the morning.


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## Bm101

I clamped one length of box section (leveled lengthways with my long spirit) an inch or so below the surface( dictated by your sled height etc). I then repeated along the other side using the first as the datum. The box section is longer than the bench. It's a two person job btw unless you screw them on. The box section then act as runners for the sled. The original plan was make them easy to attach by putting permanent fixings on as a quick router sled set up for other wood but in the end it was actually easier to later adjust the sled for the workbench top itself.


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## SMALMALEKI

Jacob said:


> Wheeling out the old jpg again sorry! One big advantage of the trad British bench is ease of flattening. Plane the front beam flat then plane the apron upstand at the back, to match.View attachment 102111


In fact I followed an English workbench plan from @Paul Seelers old YouTube clips. 
I have two aprons on two sides.


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## SMALMALEKI

I am struggling to understand something here. I have put two rails / runners on both sides. Three corners are raised 10 mm above the bench corners carefully. Then I used a digital angle finder on an straight aluminium L shaped profile. Making it zero and then adjusting the other end to the same angle. so far I was satisfied that I have a co-planer set. 
as I was leaving garage to end today’s work I just checked with winding sticks and to my horror there is a twist on the rails. 
my digital angle finder is accurate to 0.1 degree so I can’t explain the discrepancy. 
can someone please explain where may I have gone wrong ?


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## Jacob

SMALMALEKI said:


> I am struggling to understand something here. I have put two rails / runners on both sides. Three corners are raised 10 mm above the bench corners carefully. Then I used a digital angle finder on an straight aluminium L shaped profile. Making it zero and then adjusting the other end to the same angle. so far I was satisfied that I have a co-planer set.
> as I was leaving garage to end today’s work I just checked with winding sticks and to my horror there is a twist on the rails.
> my digital angle finder is accurate to 0.1 degree so I can’t explain the discrepancy.
> can someone please explain where may I have gone wrong ?


Not sure what you mean. Photo might help?


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## Silfi

Smalmaleki--how far out is it? On a 600mm wide bench a .1 deg error is 1.04mm. If error is +/- then 2mm error possible. You say having zeroed the scale you adjusted the angle---to zero presumably? If it out by a large amount could a rail have moved?

Edited to correct typo.


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## SMALMALEKI

Rails are screwed on three corners and the fourth corner is clamped waiting to confirm the final setting. I use the finder which can be zeroed by pressing a button or show the absolute horizon.
pictures shows the rails and the aluminium profiles as well as the winding sticks.


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## Jacob

Can't you just lay a spirit level over the bench? Can't see the purpose of your two rails and with those thin angle irons look a likely source of error themselves.
Handy to have the thing level but it is not at all critical - you judge the flatness of your work pieces as necessary by looking at them, squint the length, across the width with winding sticks etc.
You don't need to do it by checking against a flat surface - it may not be possible anyway and you'd still have to check the flat surface.
I suggest do some woodwork and stop worrying!
PS have you got a photo of the whole bench? Can't see how you've constructed it. It's common for new items to settle and bend as they dry out or get used to an uneven floor.


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## Jacob

Just watched a bit of the Wood whisperer's vid. 22 minutes is about 20 minutes too long. He's mad as a hatter!
There's too much of this sort of stuff on youtube. They make things look difficult so that the solution looks magic. That's what card sharps and conjurors do


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## SMALMALEKI

Jacob said:


> Can't you just lay a spirit level over the bench? Can't see the purpose of your two rails and with those thin angle irons look a likely source of error themselves.
> Handy to have the thing level but it is not at all critical - you judge the flatness of your work pieces as necessary by looking at them, squint the length, across the width with winding sticks etc.
> You don't need to do it by checking against a flat surface - it may not be possible anyway and you'd still have to check the flat surface.
> I suggest do some woodwork and stop worrying!
> PS have you got a photo of the whole bench? Can't see how you've constructed it. It's common for new items to settle and bend as they dry out or get used to an uneven floor.


I built my bench two years ago. Until recently I needed to work some wider boards for my kitchen shelves project where the twist between two halves made working difficult. Here is a photo of bench when it was waxed for the first time.


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## SMALMALEKI

Jacob said:


> Just watched a bit of the Wood whisperer's vid. 22 minutes is about 20 minutes too long. He's mad as a hatter!
> There's too much of this sort of stuff on youtube. They make things look difficult so that the solution looks magic. That's what card sharps and conjurors do


Jacob 
You are a man of wisdom. Would you kindly tell me how would you flatten it?


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## SMALMALEKI

These L shape aluminium profiles are flat and straight 1000 mm. I’ve tested them for flatness and they are very good. Perhaps a cheaper alternative to Veritas aluminium winding sticks.


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## Ttrees

They might be very flat, but how much can they deflect if not fully supported, like in that picture with the UKJ jig resting on it?
Maybe they don't deflect, I'd guess they would like that, especially if a little weight was applied.
I'd personally use them as a reference to get some good hefty timbers precisely flat for the job.

Nice bench BTW
Tom


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## aebersold

When I built my bench, after glue up I flattened it (beech) with a hand plane and straight edge within about .002” flatness. It’s hard going physically and when I’d finished I resembled a 5’4” version of Arnie. I think you can rely too much on the powertool approach, faff around making jigs, buying “stuff” and watching guys on YouTube that don’t make much, when the job could have been done quicker with hand tools and a bit of graft. Unless of course you were doing it on a regular basis and need to make money at it.


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## Jacob

SMALMALEKI said:


> These L shape aluminium profiles are flat and straight 1000 mm. I’ve tested them for flatness and they are very good. Perhaps a cheaper alternative to Veritas aluminium winding sticks.


The cheap alternative to Veritas winding sticks is to make a pair of your own out of any handy bits of scrap.
Nobody ever _bought_ winding sticks in the past as they are amongst the simplest things any half competent woodworker could make.
At its simplest you find a straight bit of something or other and cut it in half to make two winding sticks.
Another big secret you won't find in a tool catalogue is that the best way to test for straightness is to *look* at the thing. Crouch down and squint over your bench from side to see how the edges line up, squint down the length to see how straight they are.
If your digital gadget shows up an error which you can't actually see, then throw the digital gadget away.
PS and whilst crouching you also squint along the diagonals! Move your head a bit as you do it.
PPS - winding sticks have to be straight and _exactly same height_ to avoid error. If you have say 2 pieces of 3x1" then you'd use them either both on the narrow edge or both on the wide. If they approach squareness you need to make sure you use them the right way round, perhaps mark the top edge of each.


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## fiddlerjon

Exact flatness is not required in a workbench. As you use it, you are going to end up with bumps and scrapes which means your true flatness is going to be compromised from the start. Go for an APPROXIMATELY flat work surface. Ensure that the top surface of your vice is level with the surface of your bench.
Good luck, and don't fret over super accuracy - this is wood, not metal. work.
Jonathan


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## Jacob

fiddlerjon said:


> Exact flatness is not required in a workbench. As you use it, you are going to end up with bumps and scrapes which means your true flatness is going to be compromised from the start. Go for an APPROXIMATELY flat work surface. Ensure that the top surface of your vice is level with the surface of your bench.
> Good luck, and don't fret over super accuracy - this is wood, not metal. work.
> Jonathan


Exactly. And the first workpiece you drop onto the bench is not likely to be flat itself (which you verify by *looking* at it) so the flatness of the bench doesn't matter at all.


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## Ttrees

Totally agree, nothing needs to be flat, 
the same goes for your surface planer beds 

Benches are for sticking chisels into, and cutting into with your handsaws


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## SMALMALEKI

I built few winding sticks and as they are all wooden they keep moving despite being oiled. Therefore I have a pit of handy aluminium fit back up. I didn’t have a well seasoned wood stable enough( I have some gifted to me which are super precious and not cut them yet) for lasting winding sticks. 
now I have few piece of beechwood lying in my garage for second year and hopefully they should be ready for use.
My main confusion was in discrepancy between winding stick and digital angle finder( level). 
it’s always beneficial to hear from experience though.


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## Nigel Burden

Ttrees said:


> Totally agree, nothing needs to be flat,
> the same goes for your surface planer beds
> 
> Benches are for sticking chisels into, and cutting into with your handsaws



You'd be horrified at my bench. It's only four feet by eighteen inches and is screwed to the frame of my 6x8 shed. It's been knocked together with whatever board I could lay my hands on. I flattened it last week as it does move being in an unheated wooden shed. It's flat enough that work doesn't move, but t now has a chunk out of it where it tore out near a knot. And yes it has chisel marks in it, and saw marks. 

To be honest, I couldn't bring myself to use some of these very well finished benches for fear of ruining them. Richard Maguire made a bench that sold for £3800. May be ok if you a pro, but I'm just a hobby wood mangler.

Nigel.


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## Jacob

Ttrees said:


> Totally agree, nothing needs to be flat,
> the same goes for your surface planer beds


Er - not sure about that one!


> Benches are for sticking chisels into, and cutting into with your handsaws


Does happen. Also it's handy to nail or screw temporary stops to a workbench.
This is my favourite Antique Brutalist Solid Beech Workbench might get around to copying it one day but would add a Record 52 1/2 vice


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## Ttrees

Two benches are handy to have, one for rough work and another for nice work.
One can have a thin top and be flipped over for metalwork or whatever...
though I doubt Smalmaleki will be using his bench for the likes of that.

I'm just a hobbyist also, and have no funds for an expensive planer thicknesser even when broken / little room / rented place with 13a plugs, so it's not very fees-able to get a proper PT , and those noisy lunchbox things seem pants to me, and would attract unwanted folk, regardless of any 'lockdown' happening.
That's why I treat my benchtop as a surface planer bed.

Might not be important for someone who's making picnic benches, but for making
something of the caliber of SM's bench, i.e cabinetry or equally tricky stuff,
it makes sense to have something you can trust.

Virgin timbers are out of my price range, well the kind that won't become a meal for the beetles, so I end up reclaiming tropicals and laminating them a lot of the time, thus a reliable method of planing enabling me to be more frugal with the materials I have.

Regarding making the bench flat
I suggest making a pair of parallel straight edges, and no shorter than the length of the bench, otherwise you will make a concave surface which translates to
the opposite thing happening in the work.
(the ends being nipped off, leading to much wastage)
A plane is much less prone to creating such an error by hollowing the work out.

These lengths can be flipped over to double any error that might happen,
I shim this thin benchtop until its leveled with some very nearly square blocks
so can be rearranged for seasonal movement.







Tom


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## Ttrees

Have ye got no clamps Jacob?


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## Jacob

Ttrees said:


> Have ye got no clamps Jacob?


Er , yes. Why? I've got dozens of them sash and G etc


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## Jacob

Ttrees said:


> ......Regarding making the bench flat
> .......


I suggest *looking* at it (see several posts above) and if it doesn't look flat, plane it a bit until it does. You might have to think carefully about which bits to plane.


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## timothyedoran

Here is my 2p. I made a seller's workbench last year. I carefully planed all the bits square and straight or so I thought. I made a pair of winding sticks from some scrap pine, simple and quick. 
Then I laminated them together and somehow created a big twist along the length. I nearly binned it as there was about 5mm difference over the length. Instead I tried to plane it flat. It didn't take too long maybe an hour or so with a scrub and hand plane. Result a flatish and twist free slab. I then continued to build the bench and only flattened at the end.

I didn't need a digital what's it or lengths of extruded metal. Without being rude I suggest you try with some wooden winding sticks. I think the eye is good enough and seeing the errors as the winding sticks magnify the error because they are leavers. Unless you have reduced vision, in which case sorry for my assumption.


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## Jacob

timothyedoran said:


> .....Instead I tried to plane it flat. It didn't take too long maybe an hour or so with a scrub and hand plane.


Agree with all that except I wouldn't bother with a scrub pane for just a few mm. They've become a bit trendy- it's because they've been slipped into the catalogues and promoted by unscrupulous tool sellers!
They are just for dog rough work where you might have used adze or axe in the old days.


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## Ttrees

There's no way I'd be able to get the accuracy I'd want doing so though, Jacob.
Way easier to let the bench do that for me...
in conjunction with a long reach angle poise lamp which has a good sized shade
(about 7.5" diameter) which I forgot to mention.

Those tiny errors multiply when laminating and it becomes a real headache for me.
Got three anglepoise/folding arm/architect lamps recently for the workshop, took a long while to find them, although seemingly easy to get in Canada, as Cosman has plenty of new ones.
Don't be fooled those miniature ones ebay with totally fake measurements, they are miniature things,


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## Jacob

Ttrees said:


> There's no way I'd be able to get the accuracy I'd want doing so though, Jacob.
> Way easier to let the bench do that for me...
> in conjunction with a long reach angle poise lamp which has a good sized shade
> (about 7.5" diameter) which I forgot to mention.
> 
> Those tiny errors multiply when laminating and it becomes a real headache for me.
> Got three anglepoise/folding arm/architect lamps recently for the workshop, took a long while to find them, although seemingly easy to get in Canada, as Cosman has plenty of new ones.
> Don't be fooled those miniature ones ebay with totally fake measurements, they are miniature things,
> View attachment 102444


Well yes it depends on what you are doing.
I often drop on a bit of mdf or ply if I want a nice flat surface, or a couple of bearers across to support some things, and so on.
Agree about bright lights. A good torch is handy - to shine across a surface and show up irregularities. I'm surprised LN or LV haven't worked up some sort of digital torch gadget at an incredible price.
Oops spoke too soon; LV have https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/sho...ing/levels/110487-green-crosshair-laser-level 
Instead of *looking* at the thing you just follow their simple instructions:
Emitting a bright green crosshair beam for good visibility, this laser level is self-calibrating to provide clear lines for level and plumb, accurate to ±1.5mm at 5m (approximately 1/16" at 16'), with a working range of 15m (about 49'). Its field of projection is broad enough to cast the beam onto more than one surface at a time. This makes it easy to transfer a continuous reference around inside or outside corners, permitting accurate alignment of elements on adjacent surfaces.
The level has two modes of operation. In standard mode, its internal floating pendulum mechanism automatically stabilizes with gravity, correcting up to 3° of inclination. In the locked mode, the pendulum remains in a fixed position, allowing you to tilt the level to project a line at any angle. When the level is off, the same lock stabilizes the pendulum to help prevent damage from jostling.


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## Ttrees

Agreed with the bearers Jacob, I have three in the pic above on the TS.
Often a length laying on them will make it very obvious if there not spot on.
and helps to keep the chisels away from damaging the bench top also.

Tom


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## timothyedoran

Jacob said:


> Agree with all that except I wouldn't bother with a scrub pane for just a few mm. They've become a bit trendy- it's because they've been slipped into the catalogues and promoted by unscrupulous tool sellers!
> They are just for dog rough work where you might have used adze or axe in the old days.



I quite agree. My excuse is that I bought a rubbish silverline no.4 years ago. I never could get it working nicely. Or if I did, some other adjustment went out. I bought a vintage record 
no4 and it was like night and day. For the silverline I just put an arc shaped camber on the blade. Suddenly it's brilliant at rapid if rough wood removal. 

If you are suggesting that there are people trying to sell us stuff we don't 'need', promising all problems will evaporate then I quite agree.


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## SMALMALEKI

First of all I would like to thank everybody for their contribution. I learned a lot. 
what I did
1- I bought a construction grade 6*2 timber and cut it in half ending with 2*2.4 meter timber 
2 - I got one edge straightened in a joiner 
3- because of the twist which I had missed in the shop these rails did not sit flat on my bench apron 
4 I hand planes one face of each to get them square to the edge ( other way around) 
5- I got oak veneered and made a plaining slid making sure
6-this morning in day light I checked the rails and made sure they are not twisted 
7- My eyes and winding sticks were more accurate than the digital level( angle finder) 
8- bench top is flattened using a router with 2 inch flat router bit 
Mistakes I made 
1- I should had flattened the one d
Face before the edge 
2- I was turning the digital level to face inward and it could have doubled the standard error of the machine.
3- I took my eyes off the laminating and ended up with horrendous twist literally loosing more than 10 mm of my bench top thickness 
4- I cut the corners a d did not flatten the underside of the bench tops which made the bench to be twisted.
All I have left to do is to sharpen the 5 jack plane and get rid of router bit marks.
Ps: Why my beech wood is tearing on planing in both directions?


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## novocaine

your blade isnt sharp enough.


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## Nigel Burden

Have a look at this from Paul Sellers.

Paul Sellers' Videos on Woodworking -Tutorials, Techniques and Projects 

Nigel.


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## D_W

put a filler strip between the two parts of the top, set a cap iron on a long plane and plane it. look for high spots with any straight edge (no winding sticks needed) and plane off the high spots until there are none and then take continuous shavings overlapping each other until the surface is clean. it'll take an hour unless it's horribly horribly out of flat. 

As far as flat benches, if you do hand work, you want some part of your bench to be flat enough to plane a typical part that you'd use (e.g., if you plane panels) to be a judge of flatness so you can do accurate work. If you don't work by hand, I don't know, but if you smooth plane and boards flex, no clue how it's not annoying. 

Too much on youtube pretends to provide an easy solution, but the temporary solution results in permanent lack of skill.


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## SMALMALEKI

novocaine said:


> your blade isnt sharp enough.



I thought this was sharpened last week but I must have had a moment. Sharpened the blade and it’s doing well.


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## timothyedoran

SMALMALEKI said:


> I thought this was sharpened last week but I must have had a moment. Sharpened the blade and it’s doing well.


I know that feeling. If in doubt I sharpen up.


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## SMALMALEKI

Nigel Burden said:


> Have a look at this from Paul Sellers.
> 
> Paul Sellers' Videos on Woodworking -Tutorials, Techniques and Projects
> 
> Nigel.


I’ve watched some of his clips. Did you have any particular one in mind?


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## Danieljw

My work bench is 5mtr long (17 feet, there about.) Made from 50 x 250mm rough sawn pine frame with 18mm plywood top.
It has less than 0.5mm deviation end to end, and I make accurate joinery.
Work benches are made for work...
This nonsense you see on YouTube is more suited for your dining room.
I have a second bench over 100 years old, it was given to me by someone that was renovating an old barn, made from solid chestnut, it looks like the spanish civil war was fought on it, but it serves its purpose well.
Chinese digital inclination gauges work best in the bottom of a dustbin.
If you use a bevel gauge and protractor 
You can knock out perfect angle gauges in second and eliminate doubt.


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## SMALMALEKI

Danieljw said:


> My work bench is 5mtr long (17 feet, there about.) Made from 50 x 250mm rough sawn pine frame with 18mm plywood top.
> It has less than 0.5mm deviation end to end, and I make accurate joinery.
> Work benches are made for work...
> This nonsense you see on YouTube is more suited for your dining room.
> I have a second bench over 100 years old, it was given to me by someone that was renovating an old barn, made from solid chestnut, it looks like the spanish civil war was fought on it, but it serves its purpose well.
> Chinese digital inclination gauges work best in the bottom of a dustbin.
> If you use a bevel gauge and protractor
> You can knock out perfect angle gauges in second and eliminate doubt.



thank you for your reply and sharing your knowledge. 
I have to admit I am struggling to understand how to use a bevel gauge and protractor to check for twisting on the bench! Sorry I am not trained in fine woodworking rather I am self thought.
Would you be kind enough to explain it to me or direct me to somewhere to learn more?
Regards


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## Ttrees

David Charlesworth is the _very best _at teaching how to plane correctly.
Most folks don't come anywhere near close to conveying this with as much detail.
Although Custard has some very good threads on it also.

Once one has that down, then it might be time to learn how a double iron plane
like a Bailey can work for timbers which aren't so cooperative.

Only two folks come to mind in this regard, who would be a good to learn this from...
What I mean is, that they go into a good amount of detail on the subject.
Those would be David Weaver above (David W youtube) look for his 'setting a cap iron' article on would centralz (not saying the real site name as I've got scolded already from giving advice on external forum links.
Not saying he's all that great at conveying clear concise advice, like Charlesworth for example.
Derek Cohen is the other fella who would be good to learn from.

Another English fella comes to mind also, but its just skimming the surface really, he should do another video on the subject to be a little more comprehensive.
That video thumbnail is misleading for example.

Pride and ignorance from the other gurus, is quite a hindrance for folks learning.
A bit of honest humbleness would go a long long way.

Tom


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## Jacob

SMALMALEKI said:


> thank you for your reply and sharing your knowledge.
> I have to admit I am struggling to understand how to use a bevel gauge and protractor to check for twisting on the bench! Sorry I am not trained in fine woodworking rather I am self thought.
> Would you be kind enough to explain it to me or direct me to somewhere to learn more?
> Regards


I think he's pointing out that setting a saw blade is easier and more accurate with an ordinary bevel gauge and protractor. 
A school protractor (£1 or so) just as good as an Invicta at £50 whatever.
In fact you angle device is not good in my opinion. It is effectively a very short level. The shorter they are the greater the error. 
A normal builders spirit level would be handier, generally useful, probably cheaper and at say 1000mm long would be very accurate for your purposes.


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## Nigel Burden

SMALMALEKI said:


> I’ve watched some of his clips. Did you have any particular one in mind?



Sorry, that link brought up all the videos.

The one I had in mind is Bench hights and planing techniques. This is the one where he pulls the plane with some cord demonstrating the difference between a plane that you think might be sharp, ie. one that's still taking shavings, and then one that's been freshly sharpened. It's from seven years ago. I've posted the link again but you will need to go back seven years and search.

Paul Sellers' Videos on Woodworking -Tutorials, Techniques and Projects 

Nigel.


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## Ttrees

A typical example from many gurus which won't show anyone how to use a double iron plane in less than ideal timber, and instead relying on party tricks.
Many folks starting off use knotty pine in most cases for their first projects, i.e a bench build.
Most of those guru's giving a dribble at a time hinting they have more to offer, but they never do, well as long as I've been into woodworking (around a decade)
Yes I know, spring chicken and all that.... 

At the same time... surely that is enough time........
To actually demonstrate how to use the Bailey style for knotty pine, or tropicals 
without using machinery, and plane those timbers efficiently starting from roughsawn or twisted boards to finish planing, without ever needing a scraper for flat timbers ever again.
Nah, click-baiting is obviously much more of an earner, 
so they continue to be elusive instead.

Kudos to another popular English man who actually gave it a shot, (sticking a video out there for all to see) 
even when he was evidently newish to the game changing results of using the double iron plane with efficiency.

Wise enough to know a good thing when he seen it, a lot more of a trustworthy of a person to learn things from, rather than others relying on elusiveness and gimmickry.

Honest is what learners need, not crouching tiger hidden dragon malarkey

Tom


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## Nigel Burden

I take it that you don't like Paul Sellers then Tom.

The video was to illustrate how it is possible to not realise when your plane needs sharpening. It is not gimmickry as you can not force the plane as you have no contact with it other than the cord that you are pulling, where as when you are holding and pushing your plane you are adding weight which will enable a less than very sharp plane to still take shavings.

Nigel.


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## Ttrees

I truly can't answer that question Nigel, I watch his video's.
He is obviously skilled, and I might have picked up a tip or two from him,
but that's about it really.
Oh I remember one impressive thing now what stuck
Watch him sharpen a gouge in a figure 8, pretty slick if you ask me.
Insert laughing at the spring chicken writing this! 
That kinda thing is why I had a bit of a rant.
His pride gets in the way.

But watching him do anything related to hand plane, apart from sharpening,
is a bit like this guy.


Going back to your suggested link Nigel, it illustrates _a_ point very well, demonstrating the plane working without anything else involved like skewing a blunt iron to make up for sharpness.
Sure a sharp iron is preferred, obviously,
but sometimes that only lasts for a very brief period on timbers with a high silica content, or timbers with knots for example.

If you set the cap iron close enough to deal with some troublesome timbers then it doesn't need to be so sharp, and it stays sharper for longer.
Believe it or not.

To prove this...
One can experiment with some real difficult examples of timbers with alternating grain, not all examples of troublesome timber with such grain is difficult though, so pick the worst or close to it, most offending piece you've got.

With your stock selected, sharpen the iron as you normally do.
Set the cap iron to about 1/32" and no further away from the edge than that, and plane it until the iron needs sharpening.
(some offending examples might need the cap slightly closer than that, if you've truly got some difficult stock)

You will get tearout, when it starts to get dull.
Don't sharpen it yet though!
Instead set the cap closer and plane it again and the tearout will disappear.
Magic 

If you work with troublesome stock
Two planes or irons are needed to make use of the Bailey/double iron plane.
One will need to be set at half the distance away from the edge compared to the other mentioned.
If you can get the cap iron as close as a 64th away from the edge, then it basically means you can set it closer if need be.
That first plane has a profile sharpened with a camber that suits the timber...
It will likely not work any further away than the 1/32" with a 50 degree or hair over
profile on the cap iron.
Warren Mickley suggests going steeper, so that suggests one could get away with a larger camber than I would use for my timbers.

The steeper the cap iron, the further away the cap iron can be set, and likewise the opposite.
I have hit staples before and not damaged the cap iron when its honed at 50 degrees, that's why I suggest going to that angle.

But again regarding technique
Did I say Charlesworth's _methods_ _of planing _ are foolproof, and should be studied first.
He is not afraid of being honest, unlike some folk....
That other bloke will keep stringing folks along in this regard.
Chu, pok, hu, fa, stomp, the strength of 10 men he has! 

[Edit]maybe I'm being far too serious, and I _do _like Mr Sellers.
after all I actually enjoyed the video I've just linked.


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## Delwood

I wish I could actually see 1/64th.


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## SMALMALEKI

Jacob said:


> I think he's pointing out that setting a saw blade is easier and more accurate with an ordinary bevel gauge and protractor.
> A school protractor (£1 or so) just as good as an Invicta at £50 whatever.
> In fact you angle device is not good in my opinion. It is effectively a very short level. The shorter they are the greater the error.
> A normal builders spirit level would be handier, generally useful, probably cheaper and at say 1000mm long would be very accurate for your purposes.


I use a 1000 mm L shaped profile to increase the level footprint.


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## Jacob

SMALMALEKI said:


> I use a 1000 mm L shaped profile to increase the level footprint.


It doesn't though. The level footprint stays exactly the same.
Have you tried using your ali strips as winding sticks?
They need to be precisely same height as well as straight.
Put them on the bench as per pic below - but easier to squint from the end of the bench rather than banging your head on it. Then swap/turn them about but in the same position on the bench. Should show exactly the same amount of error each time - if not then they are not straight enough. 
If you bench is out by just a few mm it doesn't matter at all.
You get the expression "reference surface" with some of the new boy gurus - ignore it - it's not a woodworking idea it belongs to precision engineering


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## Ttrees

What illustration is that from Jacob?
I wouldn't be impressed if I was the author and that's what the artist came up with.
Strange him/her wouldn't have a bash at it themselves, and draw something sensible, instead of putting that in their book.

Comes across like the publishers had the same attitude that the record companies had back in the day, must produce another hit to meet the deadline and all that.

Seems a typical example of where some of the attitude I was talking about above came from, totally unspecific and keeping to the tradition of being clandestine.

Thankfully we have, boring, non monetary infulenced forums, and exciting monetary infulenced youtube today, to actually learn from if we really want to.


Tom


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## SMALMALEKI

Jacob said:


> It doesn't though. The level footprint stays exactly the same.
> Have you tried using your ali strips as winding sticks?
> They need to be precisely same height as well as straight.
> Put them on the bench as per pic below - but easier to squint from the end of the bench rather than banging your head on it. Then swap/turn them about but in the same position on the bench. Should show exactly the same amount of error each time - if not then they are not straight enough.
> If you bench is out by just a few mm it doesn't matter at all.
> You get the expression "reference surface" with some of the new boy gurus - ignore it - it's not a woodworking idea it belongs to precision engineering
> 
> View attachment 102680



I tested them for straightness based on the method of three straight edges. I checked them against each other and then against a third one individually. All three were straight and they are exactly the same height. ( I learned the method from this forum). I hope this explanation is adequate for this brilliant way of straightness test.


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## Jacob

SMALMALEKI said:


> I tested them for straightness based on the method of three straight edges. I checked them against each other and then against a third one individually. All three were straight and they are exactly the same height. ( I learned the method from this forum). I hope this explanation is adequate for this brilliant way of straightness test.


So have you tried them as winding sticks and can you find the error you digital device shows?


Ttrees said:


> What illustration is that from Jacob?
> ......


"Joinery & Carpentry " ed. Richard Greenhalgh, New Era Publications. Excellent 6 volume set - one of the best old woodwork text books you can get, from before the age of gadgets, jigs, digital devices and other nonsense!


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## Ttrees

SMALMALEKI said:


> I tested them for straightness based on the method of three straight edges. I checked them against each other and then against a third one individually. All three were straight and they are exactly the same height. ( I learned the method from this forum). I hope this explanation is adequate for this brilliant way of straightness test.



Straight they may be/possibly are pretty good, but rigid they may not be.
Have you checked how much they might deflect?
Pretty easy to check this by having one of your beams fully supported on the bench,

Using three blocks of some kind, one for each end and one in the middle.
Slide the middle block from under the beam and see if it pulls the straight edge.
Probably so, get some paper and shim each end, and try again.
You might get a rough idea on how much it deflects that way.

Tom


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## SMALMALEKI

Jacob said:


> So have you tried them as winding sticks and can you find the error you digital device shows?
> 
> "Joinery & Carpentry " ed. Richard Greenhalgh, New Era Publications. Excellent 6 volume set - one of the best old woodwork text books you can get, from before the age of gadgets, jigs, digital devices and other nonsense!


I have tried them and found the problem. 
the digital gadget has a level of error. I was moving it from one end to the other end and turning it 180 degree to face me when I was standing in the middle so I was causing the error to duplicate.


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## SMALMALEKI

Ttrees said:


> Straight they may be/possibly are pretty good, but rigid they may not be.
> Have you checked how much they might deflect?
> Pretty easy to check this by having one of your beams fully supported on the bench,
> 
> Using three blocks of some kind, one for each end and one in the middle.
> Slide the middle block from under the beam and see if it pulls the straight edge.
> Probably so, get some paper and shim each end, and try again.
> You might get a rough idea on how much it deflects that way.
> 
> Tom


There is a relative structural stability built in the T and L shape profiles.
generally speaking there is more resistance and rigidity in the structure when forces applied to the width of them ( the same reason for having joist the way they are used)
So under normal circumstances with no load on them beside their own weight as a winding stick they are stable enough ( winding sticks are always supported on the boards to be checked.
Cheers


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## Ttrees

I'd make sure one wasn't resting centered on the bench, supported in the middle,
and the other with the ends resting like in the photo with the digital box.

Talking about winding sticks, I never seen one with a center line marking.
Suppose many use a good long level for that, so the bubble does that job.
Still I must make a short pair someday, as they would come in handy for joining something large, like two halves of a bench or table top.
I'd still be inclined to draw a line for the middle.

Tom


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## SMALMALEKI

Ttrees said:


> I'd make sure one wasn't resting centered on the bench, supported in the middle,
> and the other with the ends resting like in the photo with the digital box.
> 
> Talking about winding sticks, I never seen one with a center line marking.
> Suppose many use a good long level for that, so the bubble does that job.
> Still I must make a short pair someday, as they would come in handy for joining something large, like two halves of a bench or table top.
> I'd still be inclined to draw a line for the middle.
> 
> Tom


 
I must make a pair soon for long term use. The use of aluminium profiles was a temporary use for flattening the table top only.


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## Jacob

SMALMALEKI said:


> I must make a pair soon for long term use. The use of aluminium profiles was a temporary use for flattening the table top only.


No big deal two straight pieces of anything will do. An advantage of just making them when you need them us that they will be straight fresh from the plane, but weeks later may be less so, though you can of course straighten them again.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Here is my bench after the last flattening, which was about 15 months ago ...












I had built it about 6 or 7 years before that time, and this was the first flattening since the build. The European Oak top had lasted pretty well, but there was no longer a substantial area I could rely on for being perfectly flat. As David noted, flat is needed when you use it as a reference surface, and when you use it to shoot edges ...






Winding sticks are not used to “flatten” the top. They are used to check for twist.

Like Jacob, I do not use a scrub plane for tasks like this. I cannot say I use a scrub plane more than a few times a year, and then it is if I am overcome with madness. A jack plane with a 12” camber is usually more than sufficient to take off waste quickly. But note that most of my boards are prepared on machines these days.

As David also mentioned, the first step to flattening is to seek out the high spots, isolate and remove them with a short plane. A smoother or a jack plane will do nicely. I use a straight edge rubbed with chalk to find the high spots.

My preference is to work down the bench. Some may want to work across the bench. You will end up doing both anyway. But it is the high spots you need to focus on. Your aim is to remove as little as possible.

I end with planing down the bench. This is where the winding sticks come in. This is a 36” jointer I built. It is like a battleship - once it gains momentum, nothing stops it! 






I end up planing with a toothing blade in a jack plane. This roughens the surface slightly. The last thing one wants is a slick top. I add a single coat of Danish Oil. This is simply to prevent oil and glue from penetrating too much, and aiding cleanup. The surface ends up matt.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## SMALMALEKI

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Here is my bench after the last flattening, which was about 15 months ago ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had built it about 6 or 7 years before that time, and this was the first flattening since the build. The European Oak top had lasted pretty well, but there was no longer a substantial area I could rely on for being perfectly flat. As David noted, flat is needed when you use it as a reference surface, and when you use it to shoot edges ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Winding sticks are not used to “flatten” the top. They are used to check for twist.
> 
> Like Jacob, I do not use a scrub plane for tasks like this. I cannot say I use a scrub plane more than a few times a year, and then it is if I am overcome with madness. A jack plane with a 12” camber is usually more than sufficient to take off waste quickly. But note that most of my boards are prepared on machines these days.
> 
> As David also mentioned, the first step to flattening is to seek out the high spots, isolate and remove them with a short plane. A smoother or a jack plane will do nicely. I use a straight edge rubbed with chalk to find the high spots.
> 
> My preference is to work down the bench. Some may want to work across the bench. You will end up doing both anyway. But it is the high spots you need to focus on. Your aim is to remove as little as possible.
> 
> I end with planing down the bench. This is where the winding sticks come in. This is a 36” jointer I built. It is like a battleship - once it gains momentum, nothing stops it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I end up planing with a toothing blade in a jack plane. This roughens the surface slightly. The last thing one wants is a slick top. I add a single coat of Danish Oil. This is simply to prevent oil and glue from penetrating too much, and aiding cleanup. The surface ends up matt.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek


Hi Derek 

thank you for your reply. Two halves of my bench top were true But there was a twist between them. To take it out I built two rails which needed to be parallel hence use of winding sticks.


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## Jacob

You can use winding sticks to help flatten a bench - they just have to be long enough so that they double as straight edges.
I made my current bench about 35 years ago. I haven't flattened it once since then! I've cleaned it a few times and planed off any protruberances such as you get from knocking nails into it , or over enthusiatic morticing.
If I want a very flat surface for any reason I'll drop on a piece of mdf, or two or three bearers nicely planed up, or various other solutions
It's impossible to have a general purpose bench which also has a perfect surface. If I wanted a perfect surface bench then I'd make one separately for that purpose, but I don't need one.
"Reference surface" is an engineering term and not much use to woodworkers. It's obviously distracted a lot of people!
Derek your bricks look like the labour of Hercules! I'll post up a photo of my "weighted beam" clamp which does the same thing but much easier. 
Think "Moxon" vice but horizontal instead. You can either use a bolt at each end, or one bolt and a weight at the other end. It's effectively a "quick release" set up and takes seconds to put things in, turn them etc.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Jacob, you probably surmised that I was shooting two thin edges for joining ...






I would like to see your fixture.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Ttrees

I think Jacob uses a lead stuffed tin'obeans for the job.
But said recently by his own account, he actually owns clamps, so I could be mistaken and do like what Custard has demonstrated.

I'd imagine the principal could be made a bit fancier with the use of a shave horse idea, another reason to have a tool well incorporated into a bench design.
But nothing stopping one from drilling or chopping two holes into the bench top either.

Curious myself
All the best
Tom


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## Jacob

This is the basic set up - beam, bolt at one end, weight at the other, panel workpiece being held.
Apologies for the squalid condition of my bench! I hadn't noticed until I took a photo. It must have been vandalised when I wasn't looking!







Smaller objects may not need the weight if you put it close to the bolt for extra leverage. I was trying out an old dado plane here on a piece of scrap. It was another recent discovery in my box of old and mysterious tools










On the other hand extra weight could be added for a panel. The old bean tins full of lead!








Or another bolt at the other end to really clamp it down. I was using these two bolts before I found another (adapted) carvers screw in my box - they are really useful and you don’t need a spanner








Planing panel from other side of bench - to release panel to turn it, just lever up the beam. Quick release, no effin about with clamps or Derek's pile of bricks.








Planing bevel on edge of panel - it’s a bottom board for a drawer repair








Planing bevel down to gauge line








Couldn’t resist photo of glorious shavings. The wood is reclaimed matchboard probably 150 years old. I’ve got a lot of it and am trying to use it up! Planing anything is much easier if you have a firm holding to start with








Starting on the cross grain








Different class of shaving








Part 2 to follow


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## Jacob

Part 2

Fitted to Drawer. New combined slip and side repair in one piece.
The original bottom was only 5mm thick pine and had been slotted into side without slips, which is the cheapest and easiest fix but not durable. Cheap joinery.













This beam clamp is incredibly useful as it's very easy to set-up and adjust, or remove - there is a slot so you can just pull the beam away. Also infinitely adaptable e..g. can be set as a fence for routing a dado, or holding down for shooting an edge, with other bits of board as necessary.
It's perfect for doing DTs - you can hold several drawer sides together side by side, or a big cupboard side panel full width, and so on. Or a hold down for carving, lettering etc.
Can be quickly installed in any other position by drilling a hole for the screw,
No clamps involved and just one bolt to hold it all, or two if you need to.
Much more convenient and speedier than the metal hold down alternatives
The main thing about it is that a firm holding improves your planing enormously.
PS and it cost sweet FA - I found the bolts in a box! One ordinary bolt will do - cost next to nothing, but those fast thread carvers bolts are very good.
What is the tech name for that style of thread, as found on bench vices etc?
PPS I found the answer in "Rust" magazine; "square" thread apparently.








Threads and thread systems — Rust Magazine


Few things are more central to (the nuts and bolts if you will) technology than threads. Machinist Jerry Blanchard discusses thread systems, their history and uses in this fascinating article.




www.rustmag.com


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