# Startrite 352



## Harbo (4 Oct 2011)

Has anybody fitted more modern type guide wheels to the older type 352 Bandsaw?

The original system is rather crude and I know they work reasonably well, but on tightening them up, mine tend to rotate in the direction of the tightening force and therefore altering the correct gap and "parallelness".
It takes several attempts to get them to an acceptable position and is becoming a bit of a pain whenever I change blades.
Trying to get a clamp to keep them in position is difficult - because of the blade and allowing spanner " access ".

Rod


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## Racers (4 Oct 2011)

Hi,

I have a 352 and I have the same problem its tricky to get them set right, but I do tend to use the same blade for everything so it doesn't happen often.
I guess you could just fit roller bearings on place of the blocks, I will have a look at mine tonight to see if what I am thinking is possible.

Pete


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## Harbo (4 Oct 2011)

Yes fine once set up properly but I changed blades to cut some brass yesterday and ruined a piece - and brass is not cheap!

Rod


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## Racers (4 Oct 2011)

Hi, Rod

Well I had a look and it's possible to replace the blocks with bearings.

Pete


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## paulm (4 Oct 2011)

Hi Rod, I use a suitable thickness feeler gauge inserted between the guide block and the blade when tightening, helps avoid the block turning in when tightening. Hope that helps.

Cheers, Paul


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## dickm (4 Oct 2011)

Personally, I wouldn't dream of replacing the blocks on my 352. Never had any problems adjusting them, but one tip that might help is to pinch a bit of very thin paper (Rizla?) between blade and guide when tightening to stop any movement.
(Just seen Paul has beaten me to it with this  )


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## Harbo (4 Oct 2011)

Yes I do use thin paper but it doesn't stop the LHS one moving out when tightening - (clockwise).

Rod


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## paulm (4 Oct 2011)

Harbo":7rzmmfrp said:


> Yes I do use thin paper but it doesn't stop the LHS one moving out when tightening - (clockwise).
> 
> Rod



That one I just hold against the feeler blade with my fingers when tightening...... Seems to work fine, but maybe you are working to higher levels of precision Rod ?

Vaguely recall Alan Holtham doing demo's though where I think he slackened top and bottom guides off altogether without any noticable loss of precision in the cut, or maybe I imagined that, perhaps someone else can recall ?

Cheers, Paul


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## Harbo (4 Oct 2011)

Paul, the thing is I cannot hold the guides tight enough to stop them moving when I tighten the nuts.

When my saw is properly set up I get no blade drift at all. 
Yesterday I changed a 1/2" thin blade to a 1/2" 14TPI slightly thicker one - so all I had to really change was the guide gap?
The first attempt gave a terrible result - I was cutting some brass strips with the fence as a guide.
After playing around only setting the gap again I got the required result. So I have to think the guide adjustment is important?

Here's some WIP - the brass pieces are parallel - honest  







Rod


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## Argus (4 Oct 2011)

.

I agree that they work fine when set .... but and this was the main point brought up earlier - , they are a pain to set in the first place and tend to go out of true quickly.
It may be the age of the saw - mine's 20 odd years old, but I would like to try a set of bearings iin the hope of a more positive setting.

Are there any kits availble and if so, will they fit the 352?


.


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## paulm (5 Oct 2011)

Argus":1yizkxtp said:


> .
> 
> I agree that they work fine when set .... but and this was the main point brought up earlier - , they are a pain to set in the first place and tend to go out of true quickly.
> It may be the age of the saw - mine's 20 odd years old, but I would like to try a set of bearings iin the hope of a more positive setting.
> ...



How odd, don't have any trouble setting mine up, just takes a little bit of care and they never go out of true, how can they if you tighten the securing bolts adequately ?

Cheers, Paul


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## Racers (5 Oct 2011)

Hi, Rod

My idea is some bearings with the right inside diameter with a big washer at the back against the back plate, a smaller washer that fits against the inner race so the outside one can turn, another small washer and the nut. Seems simple to do just need to price some bearings up.

Pete


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## Harbo (5 Oct 2011)

Pete - that sounds like a cunning plan  

I suppose identifying the correct bearing will be the problem: 7mm approx ID, 23mm OD and 16mm wide?

Cromwell's miniature ones are only 7mm wide - they do a Stud Type Track Roller which is 12mm wide but don't know if the would be the correct type and it's expensive?

Rod


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## Racers (5 Oct 2011)

Hi. Rob

These might work http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Bearin ... _info.html

I don't think you need a deeper bearing.


And if we buy 10+ they are cheaper!

Pete


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## condeesteso (5 Oct 2011)

If it's block guides, one thing to consider is replace with lignum vitae, and have them in contact. That is a David Charlesworth trick on his old Wadkin. The LV will wear but slowly and is good for its self-lubricating properties.
And Rob - making a few Bridge City squares there are we?? =D>


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## Harbo (5 Oct 2011)

Pete - pm sent

Douglas - Apart from the fact I haven't any Lignum, I think the same problem will occur with the tightening? A bearing cannot swing out?
And well spotted - I don't know what they charge but well worth the money - very fiddly and time consuming to make?  


Rod


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## condeesteso (5 Oct 2011)

Hi Rod - (not Rob, apologies) - don't know how the guides on the 352 are made so fair enough. But I retain that LV trick as being useful - had a Beckum a while ago with block guides and it would have been good on that I think. And I suspect you know what Bridge City charge... quite a bit. Very nice indeed though... got a spare one?? :lol:


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## Benchwayze (6 Oct 2011)

I had some fibre 'cool-block' material given me to epoxy to the guides on my 351. I never go around to fitting the stuff, but I was assured it wore quite well, and really did run cool. 

Anyone used this stuff? it looks like tufnol, but with a small honey-comb pattern visible through one surface. 
John


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## dickm (6 Oct 2011)

FWIW, I fitted some "Coolblox" to the Kity that preceded my Startrite, and they were certainly better than the Kity originals, but seemed to me to wear out very fast.


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## beech1948 (6 Oct 2011)

I looked at buying a set of bearing based guides a couple of years ago for my 352.

I found a set at APTC that cost about £35. The main issue was that the diameter of the hole to fit to the post was different and I never made an effort to resolve the issue.

Scott and Sargeant will sell you a pair of roller guides for about £250 +.
I also considered the Carter guides from the US of A but had issues with sizes and choosing from their many products. Again not a cheap solution.

My final solution was as follows. 
1) Remove guides and clean down to a level of surgical purity inc removal of all rust and grime.
2) Rethread the bolts and nuts securing the guides to ensure a clean thread pattern
3) Replace the rear guide rod with the carborundum end with a new one from ALT saws. ( Startrite passed all the spares for their older saws to them)
4) Created a mini Scary Sharp sandpaper set up and cleaned the metal guide blocks to be square and flat. They only needed a little tuning
5) Reassembled, used a strip of office paper as a spacer, used my socket set to tighten up the guide block nuts and used cured the tendency for one side to deviate from perfect positioning by making a wooden jig to slide over the blade from below the guides and hold the guide blocks in the correct position while I tightened away.

This all took me about 30 minutes even though it sounds long winded and inc the wooden jig.

The lower guides were a pain though and after setting up I seldom change these.

Since then I have had no problems with guide blocks moving out of place due to torsion effects from tightening.
No roller guides were bought.

Good luck

Alan


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## beech1948 (6 Oct 2011)

Oh!. ALT Saws and I discussed the provision by them of a bearing based set up. They could do it and came back with a quote and a list of parts ( God only knows where that is now). I did not go with them at that time because they seemed to vanish in front of my eyes and became somewhat unresponsive.

You may get different mileage.
Alan


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## Harbo (6 Oct 2011)

Thanks Alan - that wooden jig looks like a good idea - I will give it go next time I change a blade.

Rod


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## Benchwayze (6 Oct 2011)

dickm":1vf8hcfz said:


> FWIW, I fitted some "Coolblox" to the Kity that preceded my Startrite, and they were certainly better than the Kity originals, but seemed to me to wear out very fast.



Ah well... When I get around to turning up my old bowling woods into a mallet or two, I'll keep some of the Lignum scraps to one side! 

Cheers Dick

John


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## Racers (20 Oct 2011)

Hi, Chaps

Found this place http://www.bearingoptions.co.uk/bearing ... -248-p.asp these look a better option as the bolt is M8 and you need at least 11mm spacing from the middle of the bolt to the blade.
99p each and 99p postage so I have ordered 4 to test, less than a fiver in total!

Updated link

http://www.bearingoptions.co.uk/628-2rs ... 2144-p.asp

Pete


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## Harbo (20 Oct 2011)

That's very reasonable - let us know how you get on with them?


Rod


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## Racers (20 Oct 2011)

Hi, Rod

Got an Email saying they have posted them, first class post so looks like some weekend fun!

Pete


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## Harbo (20 Oct 2011)

Seems like we will have a different sort of fun this weekend - two Granddaughters coming to stay for the half term week - no workshop for me!  

They're lovely really.  

Rod


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## Racers (23 Oct 2011)

Hi, Chaps

Well I fitted then today took about 1/2 an hour to do top and bottom guides.

Parts used, I needed to cut a flat on the big washers as they are bigger than the bearings.


1 by Racers, on Flickr



3 by Racers, on Flickr


Fitted



2 by Racers, on Flickr

How do they work I here you say, very well, got them adjusted and it cuts better than before, did some tight curves and straight lines. I need to do some deep cutting and other stuff to be sure, but for a fiver it is looking good.



Pete


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## fluffflinger (27 Oct 2011)

Thanks for the work you've done there Pete. Bearings plus some washers, total cost £6.30 fitting time 25mins. Job done.

The blocks on the 352 I'm refurbing needed milling and I was/still am going down the Lignum Vitae solution but this has given me a quick, cost effective and hopefully successful solution, just waiting for my new blades and I'll report back.

Two further questions on this topic;

Any value in replacing thrust rods with a bearing set up of some kind, tight for space and would need a bit of fabrication, what do you all think?

Question to those that know, I presume you use end grain as the bearing surface when using Lignum Vitae?

Regards

Richard


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## dickm (28 Oct 2011)

fluffflinger":1a6otn9c said:


> Any value in replacing thrust rods with a bearing set up of some kind, tight for space and would need a bit of fabrication, what do you all think?
> 
> Question to those that know, I presume you use end grain as the bearing surface when using Lignum Vitae?


Interesting idea to replace the thrust rod, which is a bit of a problem on my saw; would be quite tricky in the space available, I'm guessing. 
I used end-grain lignum on my previous Kity, but the blocks on that were square cross section. Not sure whether the longer bearing surface on the 352 would be better side grain. Try both and see what happens?

Your comment about the original blocks needing milling - wouldn't it be possible just to grind them on a flat wheel (or even on a diamond stone?). Or would that impregnate the bearing surface with grit, which would NOT be a good idea.


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## fluffflinger (28 Oct 2011)

Dick

Thanks for response I will try both ways with the lignum vitae. 

I undertand what you say about the space for fitting a rear bearing but as I have the old tipless thrust rods as a starting point we will see where we go with that one. There is plenty of room above the top thrust rod but below the table it's very tight indeed, the issue I feel would be getting a wide enough bearing with a small outside diameter.

The original meehanite blocks are desperately chewed up and totally out of square. I think if I am to use them in the future I will have them milled flat and square as they certainly have plenty of meat on them.

Regards

Richard


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## beech1948 (28 Oct 2011)

Richard,

Mehanite blocks can be lapped to be square. All you need is basically a Scary Sharp type set up and some patience. If the Mehanite blocks are really chewed up the you can buy spares from ALT Saws. Look in Google.

When I did my 352 blocks I made a small jig out of three pieces of pine laminated together. The middle one at an angle to hold the block square to the sandpaper. Was much better than holding a small piece of metal with my fingers. Worked a like a charm to.

Alan


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## fluffflinger (28 Oct 2011)

Alan

I have done some work on the blocks, flattened the backs then started working on the faces using 100 micron lapping film from Workshop Heaven. That's the stuff I use to do initial flattening on the backs of chisels etc. When I had lost all feeling in my fingers for the 3rd time I had a look and didn't seem to be getting very far. I'll re-visit with a coarser grit, before I take them to the machine shop.

Want to try the Lignum Vitae as an experiment. Having said that I'm really please, thus far, with the bearing set up.

I'm really only just getting to know the machine and I haven't worked out how to eliminate the play in some components so I can get it really fine tuned as yet but the bearing are really easy to set and adjust.

Kind regards

Richard


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## beech1948 (28 Oct 2011)

Richard,
I have found my Mehanite blocks to be fine so I'm not really looking to change yet BUT maybe will give your approach a try to experiment. I've never used bearing type supports on a bandsaw. I bought my 352 in 1993, fixed it up, added a Kreg fence last year to replace my wooden one and have just gone from there. There is a learning curve but its not too steep. The 352 is a great machine for the small cost.

Have you any front on shots as well as the side on ones. I wanted to see how close the bearings were to the blade and to think about any adjustment issues.


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## Racers (28 Oct 2011)

Hi, Chaps

I have my bearings adjusted to about the thickness of a piece of paper (A4 80 gram) seems to be about right.

I think a rear bearing will have to be located above the side bearings as there is no space lower down, I will have a think about it and see what I can come up with.

Tha tips on the rods are just tungsten carbide, you could get one from a masonary drill and braze it on.

Pete


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## Chris152 (11 Nov 2019)

Pete - do you still have the photo of the parts you needed to convert the guides (obliterated by photobucket above) - and if so, could you post it again? The weblink to the bearings themselves still works so I can get those, I think. We have a 351 in our shared workshop but the bearings are awful, so it's got to be worth trying. Tia, if you can.


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## Racers (11 Nov 2019)

Hi Chris

I have uploaded the relevant photos to one of my Flickr accounts and edited the post.

Pete


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## Chris152 (12 Nov 2019)

Many thanks Pete, all clear, bearings ordered - it was a long shot, I know I'd struggle to find a photo that old! Really appreciate it, there was talk of getting a new saw but I reckon we can sort this one. £7.64 incl delivery.
Chris


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## Racers (12 Nov 2019)

No problem Chris, I had them in a folder called Startrie so it was easy.

Let us know how you get on.

Pete


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