# wadkin lathe motor



## wallace (28 Feb 2011)

hello all, I have recently aquired a big old wadkin RS lathe. I'd like some advice on how best to tackle the motor. It is 3 phase 380/420 volt. And I wish to use it on a domestic supply. So what do I need? The spec plate is 
Type- KZ3514
Volts- 380/420
Cyc- 50
Ph- 3
hp- 1.5
Amps 2.4
Speed- 960
No.- 4385204
Any advise would be much appreciated
thanks 
Mark


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## flh801978 (28 Feb 2011)

If you want to make it variable spped you need an inverter to run it
one that steps up the 240v input to 415v output required for your motor
those are more expensive than the ones that output at 240v
or you could take the motor to bits and remove the star point and bring the wires out so you make it dual voltage
Or buy a new 3 phase motor that already dual voltage
Or buy a single phase motor if you not bothered about variable speed
or a simple 3 phase converter for your existing motor ( expensive)

Ian


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## NetBlindPaul (28 Feb 2011)

That sounds like an imperial motor, so some tweaks will be needed if you decide to replace it with a modern metric version.
You'll want a foot mount B05 or B35 depending on the room you have.
1.5HP = 1.1kW approx. 960 rpm will be a 6 pole motor in either 80 or 90 frame size probably.
You will need to change the starter also for a 1ph device, a motor of this size will require an overload of around 9A rating.
These can be found here (other suppliers are available) & you would have to satisfy yourself that the IP rating of this unit was suitable for your use, & meets your other requirements, should you choose to use it.:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Distribution_and_Switchgear_Index/DOL_Starters/index.html
Toy will probably have to run this on a C or d 10 or 16A breaker, it "may" run off a 13A plug & socket, but it "may" not this will depend on mechanical drag on start.
Will check on the availability & spec of motor as soon as I can.


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## NetBlindPaul (28 Feb 2011)

wallace,
A 1ph 6 pole is available, however, the cost is not nice!
You are looking at the other side of £300 probably plus VAT!
Then you would need to look at whatever mechanical mods are required to fit the motor, possibly mounts, pulley bore/keyway, it may be cheaper to get a new pulley bored & keyed than modify yours.
Keep asking and I'll help as much as I can.


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## wallace (28 Feb 2011)

Thanks paul, Ian I think I may have to keep the existing motor because the pulley shaft is about 12" long and fits into a bearing on the other side of the lathe.


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## NetBlindPaul (28 Feb 2011)

wallace,
Is the shaft not coupled to the motor?
If it is then a mod could be done to link the new motor to the old shaft.
Other option is as has been suggested a 1ph to 3ph conversion of some sort.
I'm not familiar with static converters, I know rotary converters, and inverters, as i used to work for an inverter manufacturer on applications & service.
Just be careful with the lecktrickery.
It may pay to swap the control to 240V anyway and then use this to control the inverter if you go down that route.
Check 9fingers paper linked to in this post:
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums...in-the-home-workshop-updated-iss2-t35143.html


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## Darren D Breeze (28 Feb 2011)

Hi Wallace, i went through the same thing last year when i bought an RS8 myself, in the end i took the motor to a "motor rewinder" who checked it out and then cut the coil wires which made the additional seperate windings needed , cant remember exactly what he done tbh, he then supplied me with a second hand inverter and wired up a seperate control box with forward/stop/reverse switch, rotary speed control and an emergency stop button. Whole thing was then ready to bolt back onto lathe and plug in and go. Cost was £2-300. Totally happy with my decision to stick with the original motor and just upgrade the controls, I've also removed the leather belt and got a new rubber impregnated one from Tony at http://www.lathes.co.uk its quieter and doesn't suffer from beltslip. Any more info just ask, regards Darren


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## wallace (1 Mar 2011)

Hello Darren, I would prefer to keep the original motor even if I have to pay a few quid more to use it. I have one of those 1.5hp clarke motors kicking around somewhere, I cant imagine that will have the nuts to do aswell as the old original motor. Darren, does the weight of the motor maintain the tension of the belt?
thanks Mark


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## Darren D Breeze (1 Mar 2011)

wallace":1w3nwlsx said:


> Hello Darren, I would prefer to keep the original motor even if I have to pay a few quid more to use it. I have one of those 1.5hp clarke motors kicking around somewhere, I cant imagine that will have the nuts to do aswell as the old original motor. Darren, does the weight of the motor maintain the tension of the belt?
> thanks Mark



Hi Mark, yes the motor and pulley shaft bearing assembly are all on a hinged plate and basically the weight of the plate and motor etc create the tension, there is also a big bolt on the front corner of the hinged plate which can be adjusted to ease the tension by partly supporting the plate, I have mine set up so the bolt is half a turn tightened, approximately! this just eases the tension and works for me, i also use the motor lift pedal to raise the motor and chock under the plate to release the tension completely when im not using the lathe. Just read on another forum about your fun and games shifting the 'Monster/Beast' the motor alone is a 2 -man lift, I agree that your Clarke motor wont match the original, stick with it and get it altered, thats a simple job, basically just chopping into the wiring to form 6-ends from the original 3-ends, star to delta enabling. If i remember i'll take a pic or two of my set up, inside motor wiring box, inverter and remote box, and post on here tomoz evening, it may be of use to you, i was on a tight budget, and dont think i'd change any of my decisions if i had to do it again.
Regards Darren


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## NetBlindPaul (5 Mar 2011)

As long as your machine is hobby / home use you are probably OK.

The belt tension relying on the motor mass will give you issues with changing the motor end drive design in any significant way.

It is possible to change anything given enough thought & time though!

The rubber type belt is a very good suggestion.

Clarke do not do a 6 pole motor as far as I can tell, so if you fit a 4 pole your drive speeds will be all to pot.

As long as your motor guy can get at the winding ends then it is possible to convert the motor to an inverter drive, this will then give you infinitely variable speed.

See 9fingers sticky on motors for a little more info.

Just remember that if you are using the machine as part of a business undertaking then you have statutory legislation to contend with!


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## OldWood (8 Mar 2011)

Hi Wallace
You don't say where you are, but I would back up the motor rewire suggestion. Certainly if you can get a package for £200-300 that is a good deal. One particular asset of induction motors is that they are mechanically so simple that they are a dawdle to take apart - apart from possible the weight factor that is !!

It is pretty easy to whip off the back bearing plate and get access to the wiring so that it can be changed from 415vac star connection, where all the coils have one common junction point and the other ends of the coils are connected to the 3 phases, to 240vac delta connection where the coils are connected like the sides of an equilateral triangle with the phases connected to the three corners. It shouldn't be more than a 2 hour job for an experienced guy.

You'll be looking for a 2hp or 1.5kw inverter plus a control box to give you start stop, reverse and variable speed - allow ~£250. You will also require some intelligence to work out how the instruction manual works and how to set the electronics up to give remote control, emergency off, run and run down times, etc. 

Rob


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## wallace (9 Mar 2011)

Hi Rob, I'm in Durham. I found a guy local who says he can provide me with an inverter which will work with my motor as it is 415v and not dual voltage. When I asked about variable speed and being able to alter the ramp up speed. He said it will do all of this for the princely sum of £200. Does this seem a bit cheap or have I just got a decent deal?
thanks
Mark


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## OldWood (9 Mar 2011)

With all due respect I think that sounds a bit on the cheap side if it is a new unit - see if you can get the manufacturer and part number from him and I'll have a look at the spec.

For price guidance go to Ebay and dial this in "inverter phase 415v -(rotary)", and you will see why I'm a bit suspicious about how cheap that is.

You are in a trade off area between how much motor modification costs and the additional cost of a 415v inverter. 

Rob


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## wallace (10 Mar 2011)

Hi all, I spoke to the chap this morning and he said it will be an inverter and not a converter and has a display with buttons to programme, and wont need to be hooked upto a laptop or control unit. He said it will change 240 in supply to 415 without haveing a dual voltage motor. Also the make would be Hitachi or Omron but did not have the spec details.


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## OldWood (10 Mar 2011)

Hi Wallace - sounds a good deal, go for it. The one thing you will now want to look for is a wired remote control pad for the lathe working position - you really do not want to have to control the speed etc by pressing the buttons on the inverter, nor do you want to have to switch it on and off there. The inverter should be on the wall away from all the dust from the turning. Try Ebay if your source doesn't do such a thing

The other factor is that digital (ie push button) adjustment of the speed is a pain (is slow and irritating) - it wants to be done with a knob like a radio volume control so you get instant response. If you are concerned about the actual revs you either have to look for a suitable tachometer, or set up a chart on the wall that relates the revs to the frequency the inverter is putting out (the inverter will not show revs as it doesn't know what sort of motor it is driving, but it will show frequency). But then turning speed is a matter of feel and although I have such a chart, I rarely use it.

The other thing you will need to consider is an emergency off button, which again can be wired into the inverter box. The box can be programmed to ramp the motor down more quickly for emergency off.

I hope you are not to much of a technophobe as setting these inverters up is a bit of a learning curve. In all likelihood the manual will be downloadable so if you need it I, or someone, should be able to help.

Rob


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## CHJ (10 Mar 2011)

wallace":1uvf7gin said:


> Hi all, I spoke to the chap this morning and he said it will be an inverter and not a converter and has a display with buttons to programme, and wont need to be hooked upto a laptop or control unit. He said it will change 240 in supply to 415 without haveing a dual voltage motor. Also the make would be Hitachi or Omron but did not have the spec details.



Ask the guy if it would still be guarantied by the manufacturer, and does the unit meet the specifications for connection to local domestic mains supplies. I.E. how well are any harmonics it generates back into the supplies controlled. The actual Part No. of the device can be checked against the manufactures site to confirm specification.

There were some units around (240volt Pt. no's.) with what one might call after market mods, not approved by the original manufacturer and can cause harmonics problems on local supplies, something your local energy supplier might not be too happy about if it receives complaints.


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## CHJ (10 Mar 2011)

OldWood":3ljmryev said:


> ......I hope you are not to much of a technophobe as setting these inverters up is a bit of a learning curve. In all likelihood the manual will be downloadable so if you need it I, or someone, should be able to help.
> 
> Rob


I would think many of the current generation work fine out of the box, the default settings and the units 'intelegent' response to the motor it finds itself connect to will be fine for wood lathe purposes, digging into increased braking responce and adding any required load resistors to absorb the power generated or speed change ramps is fine if you really must but most folks need never bother.


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## kirkpoore1 (10 Mar 2011)

Here is a thread on the OWWM site about restoring a similar lathe:
http://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70658

The author is Ottawa, and is signed up here (userid is tool613, I think) though doesn't visit very often. 

The standard answer on the OWWM site would be to buy a transformer to boost your voltage from 240V to 415V, then get a VFD (variable frequency device) to create the 3ph power from the single phase input. The VFD would also give you the ability to use a remote pushbutton start (in fact, you could re-use the existing buttons if you wanted), plus speed changes in addition to changing speed via moving the belt. (Note that the VFD and the inverter that Rob is talking about _may_ be the same thing under a different name--this is one area of the local lingo that I haven't translated yet.) I also realize that you have different electrical regulations which may preclude this approach.

If a motor shop can convert the motor to dual voltage with a few wiring changes, I think that would be a good approach. Otherwise, I wouldn't mess with the motor wiring itself. Better to rig up a system to feed the motor what it needs.

Kirk


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## OldWood (10 Mar 2011)

CHJ said:


> OldWood said:
> 
> 
> > ......I hope you are not to much of a technophobe as setting these inverters up is a bit of a learning curve. In all likelihood the manual will be downloadable so if you need it I, or someone, should be able to help.
> ...



Not my experience Chas, and I've set up 4 within the last 2 years. Straight out of box, yes, if you are not using remote control, but the moment you do that it's a different game and really control on the lathe is essential in my opinion, plus you really do have to have an emergency stop facility, even an amateur !!

Rob


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## CHJ (10 Mar 2011)

OldWood":17v06m31 said:


> Not my experience Chas, and I've set up 4 within the last 2 years. Straight out of box, yes, if you are not using remote control, but the moment you do that it's a different game and really control on the lathe is essential in my opinion, plus you really do have to have an emergency stop facility, even an amateur !!
> 
> Rob



Yes but on the ones i've used it's external wiring not needing to re-program the microcode in the device, which is the point I was trying to make, obviously not clearly enough. 
Anyone seeing a manufacturers manual for such a device for the first time could easily baulk at all the technical information it contained.

Speed control is usually achieved by wiring a potentiometer between three terminals.

Likewise direction of rotation is at most a two way switch between three terminals.

An emergency stop switch is just required to break the connection in the mains feed to the NVR switch feeding the invertor, assuming that the NVR switch itself is not the type already fitted with a large 'Hit' switch.


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## OldWood (10 Mar 2011)

Interesting - why use an NVR switch when the box has emergency stop capability which will stop the motor quicker as it will ramp the frequency down faster than free run ? I don't see the need for an NVR when a 13A switched and fused outlet with an indicator light on it seems perfectly adequate and is smaller, neater and cheaper. 

I do also seem to remember that you do have to go into the programming to set the box to Remote. There is also the case of maximum and minimum speeds that should really be set - few people will be aware that it is acceptable to run an induction motor, particularly multipole ones, at 100Hz or more whereas going much below 25Hz runs the motor into cooling problems. 

Sorry Chas, on this one I don't agree with you and using these boxes without being aware of all the major parameters of induction motor running is inadvisable.

Rob


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## CHJ (10 Mar 2011)

OldWood":349ioi74 said:


> Sorry Chas, on this one I don't agree with you and using these boxes without being aware of all the major parameters of induction motor running is inadvisable.
> 
> Rob


That's fair enough, but there is not a lot of mystique involved with using them and personally have not had a cooling problem with the normal duty cycle associated with a wood lathe.



OldWood":349ioi74 said:


> Interesting - why use an NVR switch when the box has emergency stop capability which will stop the motor quicker as it will ramp the frequency down faster than free run ? I don't see the need for an NVR when a 13A switched and fused outlet with an indicator light on it seems perfectly adequate and is smaller, neater and cheaper.


Now this is something I totaly have to disagree with, the NVR switch is to protect an operative from a machine starting up again after a mains supply power interruption without deliberately resetting it.

They are not fitted to just about any electrical powered machine tool you care to purchase for nothing, indeed I believe it is illegal to supply a machine without one.


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## wallace (10 Mar 2011)

Sorry chaps but I think my brain just imploded, (hammer) . I have a friend who is a fitter where there is alot of inverter usage on machinery, he is going to check everything I do. When you program an inverter to alter ramp up and ultimate speed of the motor is it reasonably easy or is it loads of code and things. Does the inverter have to be placed away from the lathe to protect it from dust, will I be able to use the existing on/off switches. The chap who is supplying said the variable speed is achieved by turning a dial, if the dial is on the inverter then it would have to be on the lathe. Or is that where the remote comes in. Does the remote just plug and play? or does it need to be programmed as well? Sorry for all the dumb questions and thanks for all the input.


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## CHJ (10 Mar 2011)

wallace":6l2z5q7t said:


> ... When you program an inverter to alter ramp up and ultimate speed of the motor is it reasonably easy or is it loads of code and things.



Usually, after selecting the function number it's a matter of selecting the appropriate numbers on the display.



wallace":6l2z5q7t said:


> ...Does the inverter have to be placed away from the lathe to protect it from dust,


Idealy yes as it needs cooling. *



wallace":6l2z5q7t said:


> ...The chap who is supplying said the variable speed is achieved by turning a dial, if the dial is on the inverter then it would have to be on the lathe. Or is that where the remote comes in.


The potentiometer knob on the inverter is usually very small and not practical to use as the working control, it's intended as an easy means of adjusting the speed in a fix and forget mode.



wallace":6l2z5q7t said:


> ... Does the remote just plug and play? or does it need to be programmed as well?


No programing involved, once wiring is connected between remote box and inverter all you have is a couple of switches and a potentiometer knob to turn.

* On my main lathe the inverter is mounted within the headstock away from the dust and gets its cooling by direct mounting of its heatsink on the cast housing,


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## OldWood (10 Mar 2011)

> Now this is something I totaly have to disagree with, the NVR switch is to protect an operative from a machine starting up again after a mains supply power interruption without deliberately resetting it.
> 
> They are not fitted to just about any electrical powered machine tool you care to purchase for nothing, indeed I believe it is illegal to supply a machine without one.



I stand corrected ! And actually went out to the workshop to see what the box did on a mains failure. Really suprisiing - I did expect the electronics to be sensitive to that and shut down. An NVR it is going to have to be then - thanks for alerting me to that. I'll have to look at the other installations I've done for friends now.

Cheers
Rob


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## NetBlindPaul (10 Mar 2011)

Firstly, I gather that this machine is not to be used in a business?
If it is for business use then a radical re-think is required.

I’m now going to make a few comments and statements that may not be popular, however, this is what I do for a living and I am doing OK at it thanks, I’m far from the cheapest at what I do, but my customers return.
That is I put my money where my mouth is & get paid for it and I go back again so I must be doing something right!
Remember being an engineer I am paid for my opinions and only when they are proven am I correct.
As per my sig, I actually also provide control systems design and H&S advice & carry the PI insurance for this.
Please note carefully that my comments on this forum are not and cannot ever be taken as formal engineering or H&S consultancy advice.
I use the term inverter generically, to mean variable frequency drive or pulse width modulated drive etc.

Inverters can do many things, they may work with the default parameters on any particular motor, they may not, they are not clever enough to "read" the motor data unless this is programmed into a chip within the motor and communicated to the drive when they are connected and powered up, we used to do this with our digital drives to prevent customers (machine builders) from running drive & motor combinations outside their design parameters. Some can make very rudimentary impedance measurements (inductance, capacitance and resistance).

I believe that the price of £200 is very cheap, the guy is doing himself no favours, especially when he considers the risk he is taking in providing you with his professional opinion on how to make this work should it go wrong.

Any inverter unless IP65 rated will need to be fitted into an IP65 rated enclosure with sufficient air space and thus cooling to prevent the unit from overheating. Remember these devices will have loads of electrolytic capacitors in them, they don't like heat.

Any machine used in a business undertaking or sold, must have a nvr or "equivalent" method of safety.
It is doubtful that an inverter would restart a motor after power loss.
However, its suitability for use as the nvr on a machine would need to be clarified by the manufacturer statements.
Any emergency stop device must be latching in the off position else it is not an emergency stop.
Any start device must be momentary, i.e. only make the contacts when pressed and break them when released.

You can wire a suitable remote potentiometer of a suitable value in a suitable manner remote from the inverter for speed control at the operating position for the lathe, if the inverter has that facility

Inverter ramp functions can be very severe, you need to consider the machine mechanics before ramping too fast. Think about how quick it ramps up on a standard squirrel cage motor on 50Hz mains and make the ramp down the same time.

Most programmable inverters have several responses to e-stop commands. They can free wheel, ramp down at max ramp or at a programmed ramp, at ramp up speed and others.

CHJ is correct with the mains filtration. Inverters can inject harmonics and other such electrical “nasties” back into the mains, this is no longer allowed under statutory legislation and you must install an RLC filter at the input to the drive.

Also remember that you have a statutory legal duty to inform your electricity supplier/local distribution network operator if you are connecting loads above a certain value to your domestic electrical supply.

Adding bleeder resistors and other such drive additions can get quite complex, remember bleeder resistors can get VERY VERY hot in a VERY short space of time, the consequences of this could be interesting! Keep them in a dust free environment & I mean FREE, where they can dissipate the heat, their rise is almost adiabatic for those that follow my train.

Again an out of the box inverter set up may well work OK as CHJ suggests it may not. This may depend on many things including the number of pole pairs in the motor, most are targeted at 2/4 the OP has 6 so tweaks may be needed?

Transforming up voltages is one way, however, remember that the current on the primary is also increased! You don’t get owt for nowt!

To add a remote control panel and remote speed pot should only be a couple of parameter changes.

You need to be careful in supplying your inverter from a DOL type starter which is what I think CHJ refers to as an nvr. Please consult the makers documentation as you may need separate supply controls devices for the control circuits and the power sections.


OldWood is correct that the max speed must definitely be set and the min is advisable, the overheating comment is also correct, again please remember that wood dust and especially wood flour is extremely flammable nay even explosive.
The issue with overheating may as CHJ states be a small risk due to the duty cycle, but it is there. The airflow across the motor fan of the induction motor will be designed to keep the motor temperature within its design limits when running at full load according to its duty cycle at its normal running speed. This is a common failure mode when inverters are incorrectly applied to induction motors in industry, this is more common than you think!

It is illegal to supply a machine or in fact any motor driven device for business use without an “nvr”, however their application in DIY equipment is a mute point, the number of DIY machines I find in business premises that do not comply with PUWER98 due to the lack of nvr is astonishing!
I condemn them and write up a report.
I actually rung and demanded an answer from one “cheap” machinery maker with 3 letters in their name and asked them if any of their machines met the requirements of PUWER98 after going through a few of their technical support guys who did not understand the question, once I got through to one that did, he could not answer me, they had to call me back the following day with an answer from elsewhere in their organisation which was, guess what, NO!

Wallace, if he is a fitter he may not understand the full ramifications of the electrical systems. His work may be primarily mechanical, it may not, you need to be sure that he has sufficient electrical competence as his errors may end up hurting you even though they may be unintentional, in fact they will almost definitely be unintentional!

A BS1363 plug & socket is acceptable for isolation for emergency use and for mechanical maintenance according to BS7671 (IEE wiring regs).
Please remember if you mod your own machine then this may be fine, but "IF" "something" "goes wrong" and your house insurer becomes involved, in say a fire, then if the equipment does not meet accepted standards and good workmanship then you may have issues with them paying up.

Now, don’t be afraid of doing these things, just do them right, research, ask questions, follow the makers instructions, and the relevant UK standards & guidance you will be fine.
Remember though your biggest enemy apart from the electricity itself, will be the very thing you are working with the wood dust!

Sorry if I have upset anyone, but this peeps is the way it is!


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## OldWood (10 Mar 2011)

Paul
Your input is from someone who is in the professional world. I think you are incorrect in raising all sorts of ghosts for the amateur and DIY environment - I consider that you are scare mongering, perhaps not deliberately, but because you take your job seriously and think that what applies there, applies to us all. It is not fair for you to quote PUWER98 at us - these are regulations for the work place and do not apply elsewhere, OK it might be that they represent good practice, but it certainly isn't the case for instance that insurance companies could penalise a homeowner for not complying. We are under no obligation whatsoever to ensure for instance that our bandsaws run down in 10 seconds, that our circular saws have all the protection covers; these may be desirable, but beyond that nothing. We have no one to sue if we damage ourselves and that is the key point. 20, 30, 50 years ago the loss of a finger was regarded as a hazard of the job and you lived with it; now in the litigious age, every company has to make sure they cover their a****s, and that is where you come in. Please stop the lecturing - it's not helpful.

Apart from the standard wiring regulations, there are no safety regulations that apply to the homeowner - Chas has pointed out for instance the significance of the DOL/NVR, but I am no obligations in terms of the law, or in fact the insurance company, to comply.

Rob


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## tool613 (10 Mar 2011)

i have taken that motor apart. . my power plant was the single speed 1.5 hp.( wadkin did offer a two speed motor with two windings) with a VFD. i will get better speed control ,forward and reversible,and breaking. the motor that came with the lathe is 550 volts so i had it rewound with inverter duty wire. for those at home this cost me $300 plus the VFD of about $200. there is no motor swap here as this is a special motor. so for $500 i will have all the features of a modern lathe. while the statorwas at the motor shop i got bearings and painted the end bells and get it ready.























ok so you have done a few motor bearings, and you run into some hoffmann . they are open deep grooved and have bronze cages. you do what any self respected wood worker would do and call the bearing shop.he sayes she will have to get back to you and you don"t hear from him for hours. you have givein him all the info the sizes. bang the phone rings and she has found them. they are not cheep. as they would say i am loking for good bearings cheep, not good cheep bearings.
one of the bearings was a little worn but i got two @ $82 each. they are open with a bronez cage.





the stator was at the motor shop being rewound to 220 volts,with inverter duty wire. as i said the the motors bearings are being shipped during this. so as far a the power plant goes all i needed was VFD. i went with a Teco 7300 cv . it has the power switch for the vfd , with forward and reverse,start and stop with two station one with a cable and magnet to locate the station down the bed or on the out board banjou, . What i like about this unit is the control pad is removable and can be remote of the vfd.






i pulled the bearings from the rotor and i am looking forward to getting the new ones. 







the bearing caps or grease caps for the motor bells are made of aluminum cast . one of the caps had been damaged and was missing the grease zurk. so i had to fix one on. i solder a peace on and am good to go.









it need to be that long b/c of the pulley at that end covers the grease cap.






i got the bearings ,and the motor back from the rewind shop. we painted it and put it together. as i said we rewound from 550 to 220 so i can run it on a vfd.














these are open bearings and need to be greased. i used synthetic EP.





the guys at the motor shop did a nice job of the rewind with invertor duty wire.






we put the long shaft end on first.













i wire it up for a test run. and shot a video.




jack how will now field questions


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## CHJ (10 Mar 2011)

NetBlindPaul":2ruyl0yu said:


> .........It is doubtful that an inverter would restart a motor after power loss.



The IMO Jaguar Cub inverters I have (also sold under several other brand names I believe) start to ramp up power output as soon as power is supplied to the input if the rotational direction switch is made or equivalent link is in place.

The only time they will not start as such is if the Invertor has tripped on over current due to the motor being stalled with a severe tool catch and is going through its built in cooling/safety routine. *
They will not start up again until power has been disconnected long enough for internal circuits, capacitors/interlock circuits I presume, have had time to discharge despite them showing power as still connected to the input.

* A very good safety attribute as far as I'm concerned, happens rarely but very thankful when it does.


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## NetBlindPaul (10 Mar 2011)

OldWood":1gxarlwl said:


> Paul
> Your input is from someone who is in the professional world. I think you are incorrect in raising all sorts of ghosts for the amateur and DIY environment - I consider that you are scare mongering, perhaps not deliberately, but because you take your job seriously and think that what applies there, applies to us all. It is not fair for you to quote PUWER98 at us - these are regulations for the work place and do not apply elsewhere, OK it might be that they represent good practice, but it certainly isn't the case for instance that insurance companies could penalise a homeowner for not complying. We are under no obligation whatsoever to ensure for instance that our bandsaws run down in 10 seconds, that our circular saws have all the protection covers; these may be desirable, but beyond that nothing. We have no one to sue if we damage ourselves and that is the key point. 20, 30, 50 years ago the loss of a finger was regarded as a hazard of the job and you lived with it; now in the litigious age, every company has to make sure they cover their a****s, and that is where you come in. Please stop the lecturing - it's not helpful.
> 
> Apart from the standard wiring regulations, there are no safety regulations that apply to the homeowner - Chas has pointed out for instance the significance of the DOL/NVR, but I am no obligations in terms of the law, or in fact the insurance company, to comply.
> ...



Rob,
My opening line I hoped, covers my comments, in that IF the machine is in use in a business undertaking then the business "rules" apply.
If this was not the case then sorry.

However, have you read your home insurance policy small print recently!
These companies have been hit hard by the global financial crisis and are looking for get out clauses not to pay claims to reduce their outgoings.

You may find that there are clauses in there which they will use “on” you if you had an issue relating to a fire originating in a machine you had wired/built/modified.

Apart from that, I am trying to make the point that for example a bleeder resistor could have a temperature rise of perhaps in excess of 100 deg Celsius in less than one second, now that could be an issue if you were touching it, or it were covered in wood flour could it not?

I am NOT scaremongering, I hoped to make that clear with my closing comment.

What I was trying to do was to put some facts down with regard to the engineering science, from an inverter manufacturers point of view, my last employer prior to my own business was with such a company on design/applications/service.

I feel that much of my post does have relevance to the DIY use of these devices.

It seems to me that there is a mixed bag of posters on here, some are DIY some seem to be running business ventures, unfortunately, all H&S legislation applies to businesses even sole traders it is just the complexity that varies with the size of the business. Am I incorrect? Is this a completely and wholly DIY forum, as it does not seem to be from some of the web sites I have looked up?

I hoped also to show obviously not well the rules that apply to businesses, i.e nvr, e-stops PUWER98 etc.

IMHO you would hope that one would fit some kind of emergency stop device when modifying a machine even for ones own use as in the event of an unforeseen incident you may be on your own at home (?) and the big red button may be the one that saves you!


I do make customers laugh, sometimes, as I have 2 sayings I use on them about safety “devices”!

The e-stop is the only button on the machine that matters, the green one only makes it go, and that is not really important as the big red one is the one that makes it stop when you need it to, now that is important!

The only wire that is important is the earth wire as that is the one that stops you from getting electrocuted, the others only make the machine work and in comparison they are pretty unimportant really, are they not?

If you want I’ll just leave the forum, no problem.
I contacted the mod team on joining and made them aware of my status and I was told that I would be monitored. This I expected & I believed was wholly right.
I have never hidden my status in the industry, which is the major reason for putting the information I have in my signature, thus it is obvious to all readers of my posts my background.
I have not yet made any approaches or attempted to ply my wares to any poster, I have attempted to move machinery for posters on to my trade contacts however, I have made it clear to them my intentions I did this in an effort to help them.


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## NetBlindPaul (10 Mar 2011)

CHJ,
I don't like Jaguar/IMO Cub inverters, my value engineering comments come along again.
I don't think that this modus operandi is correct and the inverter should have additional control devices fitted over and above a direction switch!
Normally the direction control would be via a contactor, thus, this would default to off in the event of a power failure, I don't have any manuals to hand for these right now.
"Our" inverter manuals did not allow a direct switch connection to the direction outputs, we also had a drive enable command, think dead mans handle before the drive would run up.
There are ways of implementing control on these devices quite simply to get red hot systems!

However, it seems I'm not welcome!
CHJ, sorry but it seems you may have been wrong. Sorry.


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## NetBlindPaul (10 Mar 2011)

tool613,
One last comment, even if I rebuild machines with grease nipples on motors I never refit them!
I remove them and plug the holes.
Just because you had Hoffman open bearings in the motor did not mean you had to refit them.
I almost exclusively use 2RS bearings in motors and most wood machines.
The rubbing seals (RS) offer additional protection against the ingress of wood dust, also the bearings have sufficient lubrication within them to last what is called the L10 life, this is the design life that if the bearing is utilised within its design parameters that 90% of bearings will survive to.
This will be 100's of 1000's of hours at least.
One of the largest failure modes of electic motors is overgreasing of the bearings.
Your pic of the greased bearing looks well over greased to me, sorry, unless that is all the grease you have put into the unit.
By the way did you wash the bearings prior to fitting as they may have had a protective coating, or an incompatible lubricant already within them?

Apart from that well done nice job, I do like rebuilidng motors myself.


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## CHJ (10 Mar 2011)

The jaguar inverter I have fitted to my wood lathe has an option to 'power off' mode which then requires an external command to power up, but in it's default state it is Power on.


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## NetBlindPaul (11 Mar 2011)

CJS,
IMHO the alarm output contacts must be wired into the e-stop circuit end of.
Thus these would assist in removing power in the event of a fault condition and as they should be wired through a contactor in the event of a power failure they would stop the MC from engaging, thus prevent restart.
I don't know the model etc. still so I can't fully comment, but, I would like to know what x1, x2, & x3 functions are by default.
I suspect that you have not correctly implemented the control / e-stop chain on your devices.

However, as it appears that my input is not welcome here I'm not sure if I'll be back.


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## tool613 (11 Mar 2011)

NetBlindPaul":3b4ff2y8 said:


> Just because you had Hoffman open bearings in the motor did not mean you had to refit them.
> I almost exclusively use 2RS bearings in motors and most wood machines



as you may know Hoffman bearings are no longer around. these a skf


NetBlindPaul":3b4ff2y8 said:


> The rubbing seals (RS) offer additional protection against the ingress of wood dust, also the bearings have sufficient lubrication within them to last what is called the L10 life


 i like open over sealed in fact i have pulled seals off some . sealed bearing are guarantied to fail open just need some cleaning and greasing and clean out of the grease cap to make room. i have never found good old sealed bearing, but i have found good old open.


NetBlindPaul":3b4ff2y8 said:


> One of the largest failure modes of electic motors is overgreasing of the bearings.
> Your pic of the greased bearing looks well over greased to me, sorry, unless that is all the grease you have put into the unit.


lots of room for grease in the bearing caps and the bearings have be turned to remove the grease after packing. about 30% full .the pic is before turning and cleaning . good eye.


NetBlindPaul":3b4ff2y8 said:


> did you wash the bearings prior to fitting as they may have had a protective coating, or an incompatible lubricant already within them?


looked like oil that most are packed in and i cant see that ever giving me a problem. the grease is a synthetic type EP #2 .

are you guys that regulated about a 1.5 hp motor over there?


jack


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## tool613 (11 Mar 2011)

NetBlindPaul":3ss9xxff said:


> I don't know the model etc. still so I can't fully comment, but, I would like to know what x1, x2, & x3 functions are by default.



if i was to make a guess they are preset for speed/ hrz out put. my 7300 cv has this.
i have wire my 7300 cv with a rotary switch and have set parameters to tell me rpm at the spindle when the mechanical drive is changed.(wish i had 4) my vfd will display proper rpm at the shaft. the LED display can be set to show rpm, amps have to look in the manual for others.

my vfd is also set for top end of 90hzs so that hp is not lost the wadkin rs motor is slow speed i believe over there 960 rpm.
jack


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## kirkpoore1 (11 Mar 2011)

OldWood":2utg06xo said:


> Paul
> Your input is from someone who is in the professional world....
> 
> Apart from the standard wiring regulations, there are no safety regulations that apply to the homeowner - Chas has pointed out for instance the significance of the DOL/NVR, but I am no obligations in terms of the law, or in fact the insurance company, to comply.
> ...



Rob:

I'm sure you're correct about the difference between business rules and what a homeowner needs to comply with. However, some of what Paul is talking about (such as not letting an inverter restart a motor after an external power failure) is certainly applicable in all situations and could often be applied with very little effort. Yes, perhaps Paul is being a little abrupt, but having been reading this list for a few months now it's clear that both commercial users and hobbyists come here, and some of them (especially the new professionals) may not be up to speed on all the requirements. Engineers aren't known for being the, ah, _smoothest_ communicators (though they're still a lot better than computer programmers like me). I think if everyone took a step back and reviewed their posts with the intended audience in mind before hitting the send button, we'd all enjoy the conversation a little more.

Paul, perhaps some more precise phrasing would allow the general audience to better discern what they _must_ do from what they _should_ do and what it would be _nice_ to do.




CHJ":2utg06xo said:


> The jaguar inverter I have fitted to my wood lathe has an option to 'power off' mode which then requires an external command to power up, but in it's default state it is Power on.



Chas, are you saying that your lathe motor will restart if you have an external power failure while running, then the power comes back on? If so, does that seem wise to you?

Thanks, though, guys, I'm getting a lot out of this thread.

Kirk


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## OldWood (11 Mar 2011)

Chas - I initially wrote a challenge to your Jaguar's wiring diagram as I failed to pick up on the fact that 'MC' is 'Magnetic Contactor' - better to find these things first before showing ignorance. :roll:. 

I don't know about the Jaguar, but the Teco 7300 CV I have can be set to switch off if there's a mains failure - I've checked my records and it isn't set correctly for this (one of today's tasks !). Do I take it that that this would not be considered adequate and that the NVR is not just belt-and-braces ?

It's also interesting to note that like my Teco, your diagram shows remote control switches are not momentary action. I agree with Paul here that momentary action switches are preferable, and are required by an older inverter I have. There's presumably some technical reasons why the designers have changed this.

Jack - I'm interested in your comment about getting an rpm readout from the 7300 - how is that achieved? Having looked at the manual I guess it must be something to do with Parameter 4.04 but how is that set up and implemented ? 

Rob


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## tool613 (11 Mar 2011)

OldWood":1x5epq4o said:


> Jack - I'm interested in your comment about getting an rpm readout from the 7300 - how is that achieved? Having looked at the manual I guess it must be something to do with Parameter 4.04 but how is that set up and implemented ?



did it over a year ago, but all i did was call Teco and they walked me through took about 15 minutes a three position switch is all that is need.. i found them to be very helpful.just give them a call. 

here is a test run on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKr6lFud1g0





did the testing before i mounted it in the lathe.









i had bundled all the control wires for function and to keep this organized.





the hole is for a pot and wires 9,10,and 11 wire it up. i had found the the pot was faulty.





there is still room for dust collection controls ,and the flex conduit is for a control station with earth magnets . this will let me place a station at the other end of the lathe or on the outboard banjo.





the center switches control power to the vfd and the stop has lock out for tool change. the switches to the right control the vfd that is mounted on the wall. the bottom switch is for speed control

.





thanks for looking

jack


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## CHJ (11 Mar 2011)

kirkpoore1":38hg3zmx said:


> Chas, are you saying that your lathe motor will restart if you have an external power failure while running, then the power comes back on? If so, does that seem wise to you?
> 
> Thanks, though, guys, I'm getting a lot out of this thread.
> 
> Kirk



No Kirk, the inverter is downstream of a reasonable quality NVR switch and will not start up again until the NVR is activated.

Regarding comments elsewhere about lower budget end inverters I find that the IMO Jaguar Cub series quality more than adequate for my use, the one fitted to my wood lathe has been in use for 14 years. 

An whilst we are talking safety with these devices, please remember that if dismantling a machine or control box for servicing that disconnecting mains power does not provide an immediate safe condition, dependant upon output connections and the model design parameters an inverter may still have a high voltage present on its terminals and any connected wiring for several minutes.

Best wait at least five minutes even ten before handling.


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## NetBlindPaul (11 Mar 2011)

^+1 to CHJ with regard to discharge times they can hold 800V d.c. (direct c(k)iller) voltage in the bus capacitors for several minutes after shut down. Not all bus voltages are this high, some are only 300V d.c.
There has to be capacitance on the d.c. bus within these units to allow for speed changes and other dymanic responses.

By the way, looking at the contacts on the IMO inverter drawing posted by CHJ, there are no switches shown, there are normally open contacts shown, however, there is no method of actuation shown.
This on advanced industrial machinery may well be via plc outputs.
Other means can be used.
I would use a contactor to switch these inputs, not a switch, ever.

The IMO unit is not my choice and I have quite a lot of experience of inverter type units from most of the major players.
Siemens, Control Techniques, Schneider, Bosch, Refu, IMO, and others whose names escape me now, too late on a Friday afternoon!
Given choice I would use, Bosch Rexroth, CT, Schneider, Siemens in that order as those are the drives I have the most experience with and have programmed up the most times, I also have some of the programming software, & interfaces thus it makes life easier!


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## wallace (11 Mar 2011)

Hi all, well I left this thread for one night and look what happened, Paul I have no problem with anybody giveing me advice on how best or how to procede in the safest way. I was shop steward and safety rep before I was made redundant last year, so I like to know everything before I attempt things. The chap I know is a very capable 'fitter' and has worked with industrial electrics for a long time. Jack I read your restoration from start to finish yesterday and was hugely impressed. I hope I can do half as good of a job. Most of this electrical talk is going over my head. I'm tempted to fit a converter and just use the belt adjustment on the lathe


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## tool613 (12 Mar 2011)

wallace":3arg74z1 said:


> Jack I read your restoration from start to finish yesterday and was hugely impressed. I hope I can do half as good of a job.



thanks Wallace. they are the best lathe in the world,and worth all the effort.

if you need any help just pm


jack


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## OldWood (18 Mar 2011)

Sorry to bump this post back up again, but I'm interested in the necessity of an NVR/MC/DOL upstream of an inverter when the box itself can be set up to cut out if there is a mains glitch. I've now reset my own one to do this (didn't think this through properly when I set it up :shock: ) and I've checked that the other ones I have an interest in are set properly. 

If the box can do it and isolation exists in the form of a 13A FCU/SKt, is further NVR switch isolation necessary ? It is interesting to note that a Speed Genie package that I installed comes in a wall mounted box with all switching, lights, etc. and it doesn't include an NVR. 

Rob


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## loz (18 Mar 2011)

Rather than "waiting" for capacitors to discharge, perhaps mention of the use of the Brinkley stick might be worthwhile? - Its what i used before entering high power transmitter cabinets.

Regs

Laurence


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## CHJ (18 Mar 2011)

OldWood":1oduwtjn said:


> Sorry to bump this post back up again, but I'm interested in the necessity of an NVR/MC/DOL upstream of an inverter when the box itself can be set up to cut out if there is a mains glitch. ...



Personally, having worked with electronic equipment for some years I would rather rely on a switch that physically breaks a circuit, be it an NVR or a momentarily latched relay that automatically drops out than ever I would trust a transistor/thyristor/triac circuit to prevent power passage.
Having said that I don't trust a standard switch either so I may be over cautious, they have been known to weld shut under fault conditions and always pull a plug out or remove fusing before working on anything.


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## NetBlindPaul (19 Mar 2011)

I can't comment as my opinions are those of someone professionally involved.



CHJ,
No switch should weld closed if it is correctly selected.







Else,

I don’t know what else I can suggest.
I feel that some of the inverter manuals have been incorrectly interpreted end of.
The NO contacts have been taken as a mechanical switch, where as if you study the data they are almost certainly an NVR contact.
However this is DIY stuff so I know nothing apparently.


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## CHJ (19 Mar 2011)

CHJ":1fs5n1m4 said:


> ..they have been known to weld shut under *fault* conditions..


And


NetBlindPaul":1fs5n1m4 said:


> CHJ,
> No switch *should* ...



Are still enough for me not to trust any switch without checking.

Would you put your hands into a garden shredder, or nearer home for a wood worker, a chip extractor fan to clear a blockage with just the wall socket mains switch turned off for safety?

I've seen single switches fail in Armament and Ordinance circuits where the switches themselves have cost more than most DIY kit.
Many hours are spent just checking that the relays in the circuits are where they should be and not stuck due to spring failure or welded contacts.

Most 'home' or 'DIY' switches rely on the function of a simple spring or an over centre rocking action and where that spring is the beryllium enhanced contact leaf itself, overheating can leave it vulnerable. (how many amps can a 13amp domestic socket switch be subjected to on motor start up ? !!)

Electronic switches (as found in converters) I trust even less as an isolating media.

And getting back to the original cause of these comments about converters and switching. I pointed out that a converter (or its associated wiring) may not be set up to fail safe 'ish', this indeed proved to be a fact in at least one instance, so as far as I'm concerned the comment served its purpose.

Professional expertise is invaluable for finite diagnosis of difficult fault occurences, but some basic practical checks and solutions can often save lives, body parts and a whole lot of unnecessary expense and frustration.


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