# Building regulations Part P



## Anonymous (29 Nov 2004)

I guess many of you will be aware that from 1st January 2005 there will be some draconian measures introduced relating to electrical work carried out in your home. If the work is in the kitchen, bathroom or garden then you will have to pay a handsome sum of money (perhaps £200 or more) to a certified electrician in order that a testing certificate is produced.

So just changing or installing a simple light fitting might become rather expensive in a few weeks time!

I've put a web page together on the effects of Part P, others are welcome to comment as they see fit:

http://www.handymac.co.uk/PartP.asp

Andrew


----------



## Chris Knight (29 Nov 2004)

I think my next address may be somewhere abroad!


----------



## Adam (29 Nov 2004)

HandyMac":3k0jyhbg said:


> I guess many of you will be aware that from 1st January 2005 there will be some draconian measures introduced relating to electrical work carried out in your home. If the work is in the kitchen, bathroom or garden then you will have to pay a handsome sum of money (perhaps £200 or more) to a certified electrician in order that a testing certificate is produced.
> 
> So just changing or installing a simple light fitting might become rather expensive in a few weeks time!
> 
> ...



Being an engineer (chartered) and a member of the Insitute of Electrical engineers, and qualified as an electronic engineer, I find this very gauling, as, basically, I am happy doing my own electrics, and my only option is to be signed off by my local authority. 

Adam


----------



## Vormulac (29 Nov 2004)

I'm a qualified sparks too. This bites the big one!

I may be forced to electrocute whoever comes around to check...


----------



## frank (29 Nov 2004)

it reminds me of the time a friend of mine a builder got a sparks to do some work he worked for manweb ,he done the job got paid then my friend got manweb to pass the job and get it signed , manweb condemned the job and told him to get one of their blokes to do it .(salt in the wounds and all that) . i wont tell you what he done to the sparks .


----------



## Anonymous (30 Nov 2004)

waterhead37":3rkgrn27 said:


> I think my next address may be somewhere abroad!



Well as of yesterdays announcement by Blunkett about ID cards, anyone who moves home after ID cards are introduced and doesn't tell the authorities will face an automatic £1,000 fine.

There you are quietly driving your camper wagon full of worldly possessions onto the Dover cross-channel ferry with a one-way ticket, and old man Blunkett impounds the vehicle 'cos you forgot to send them an announcement about moving.

I think Orwell was 20 years too early with his story.

Andrew


----------



## Anonymous (30 Nov 2004)

OK I have an ONC in electrical/electronics and an electromechanical engineering degree as well as being a member of both the electrical and mechanical engineering institiutes, can I change my own light bulb?


----------



## Vormulac (30 Nov 2004)

Only if you submit the correct paperwork (in triplicate) to the correct local authority departments, pay the necessary fees associated with the administration of the request for local authority recognition of the work being undertaken and submit to: A) a local authority inspector checking the work at a time least suitable to yourself (to be chosen later by local authority) and B) a body cavity search to ensure you're not hiding any funds due to the authority pertaining to the service which they are providing you with.

V.


----------



## Adam (30 Nov 2004)

Tony":3li819pn said:


> OK I have an ONC in electrical/electronics and an electromechanical engineering degree as well as being a member of both the electrical and mechanical engineering institiutes, can I change my own light bulb?



Nope, we are incompetent at wiring our own house. I am, however, deemed competent to design products which use mains, and indeed to wire up domestic, commercial and industrial products, but can't touch the wiring the _other_ side of the plug.

How bizarre.

Adam


----------



## Chris Knight (30 Nov 2004)

Wait until the "T" regulations come in - governing plumbing matters pertaining to toilets. You will be aware of the regulations that nowadays prevent cisterns being larger than a set number of litres and the twin buttons on top of modeern loos for a half flush?

Unfortunately it appears that we are not competent to decide when to use which button with the result that too much water is still going to waste. As a consequence , you will not be allowed to flush the loo without a certificate of competence or alternatively employing a qualified loo flusher.

However, research has shown that the foregoing measures are likely to lead to the average loo user choking the loo with paper because it gets flushed infrequently since people are reluctant to employ the services of trained professionals and the measures required to unblock the loo in these circumstances lead to greater use of water than would have been the case with regular small flushes. It has also been determined that the average person uses more paper than necessary.

So, necessary corrective measures will include the appointment of public buttocks wipers who have been properly qualified and trained in the economic use of paper. Naturally after a few years of never wiping our own buttocks, we shall forget where it is and as the wise folk in power have known all along since we can't find our own buttocks, the state is fully justified in intervening in matters that - in our ignorance we may have thought private.


----------



## ike (30 Nov 2004)

Bloody nanny state! :evil: :evil: :evil: 

I think I'll just keep it to myself and quietly carry on doing my own wiring and plumbing safely and neatly (how many so called plumbers/electricians bother to make neat work these days (present company excepted naturally)? - just slap it in anyold how and take the money :evil: ), and b*****ks to the men in suits. I don't care if it's not certified - the difference is I know what's safe to do and what isn't (e.g. I won't fiddle with gas), as I don't care to risk the lives of my loved ones. For those engineers among us, it's not exactly rocket science and if unsure about anything, there's lot's of sources to find the right info/help.

Iek... or it could be Ike


----------



## Anonymous (30 Nov 2004)

ike":25yenl54 said:


> I think I'll just keep it to myself and quietly carry on doing my own wiring and plumbing safely and neatly



Good luck to you etc. But when you come to move house you will have to sign a form sent to you by the buyers solicitor confirming that no changes have been made to the electrical installation during your tenure, and if there have been you will need to supply the certificate.

Doing the job neatly etc is all well and good. But following some sort of incident involving the electrics a forensic examination (I know this sounds orwellian but don't discount this government) will reveal your fingerprints in places they shouldn't be. And that COULD result from someone having piddled around with the electrics AFTER you have sold the property on.

There's also the situation where they are currently changing the colour coding for wiring. Have you tried to buy red/black twin & earth recently? In an older property the new wiring colours are going to look out of place. In a newer property if you use an old cable supply you happen to have lying around that will also look out of place.

Fortunately those amongst us who have seen this coming have stocked up on the older cable colours and I've got a reel of 1mm and 2.5mm. I don't use a whole lot anyway so it will most likely last me a very long time. However, this is for my own private use 'cos I ain't going to do wiring outside the new regs in a professional capacity.

One thing I don't get with this new regulation. You can fit your own gas appliance without flouting the law and blow up the whole street taking a coachload of people to kingdom come, but you can't change a light fitting and electrocute yourself without risking prosecution.

I think the lunatics are well and truly running the asylum. Where's that Pink Floyd album.....

Andrew


----------



## Vormulac (30 Nov 2004)

I didn't think you could listen to Floyd anymore. Doesn't it give you rickets, or make the pound fluctuate in a non-European manner or something?

V. (through gritted teeth)


----------



## ike (30 Nov 2004)

> But when you come to move house you will have to sign a form sent to you by the buyers solicitor confirming that no changes have been made to the electrical installation during your tenure



That's simple enough, I can sign one of those.




> Have you tried to buy red/black twin & earth recently?



Yes, Focus sell it. Not that I was checking the colour code...I just buy twin and earth.



> One thing I don't get with this new regulation. You can fit your own gas appliance without flouting the law



Wasn't that previously illegal (CORGI reg an all that)?.

Ike


----------



## StevieB (30 Nov 2004)

Interesting topic this, been casting an eye over the same subject on the screwfix forums for a while as well - some very irritated sparkies over there!

My question is, who is the onus on to prove when the work was carried out? Lets say I fiddle with my electrics in February 2005 and dont get it certified. When I sell the house in the future, and tick the 'I havent done any electrical work during my stay' box, even if the electrics do blow up after I have left how can it be proved it was done in Feb 2005 not December 2004 before part P came into force?

I agree the colour change to wiring is going to be an indicator, but this is to match the EU, not for part P. I have supplies of both, and red/black earth is still readily available - I bought a reel to add sockets to a conservaroty last week from B and Q.

If you want to be compliant with the law when selling your house, whats to stop people doing DIY stuff themselves rather than pay a spark, then just get the electrics tested/certified before you move so you have a certificate to satisfy the buyers solicitor? This is a suggested part of buying a house anyway, although I suspect its rarely taken up. Looking at it from the other side, would you not buy your dream house because the electrics did not have a part P certificate? If the answer is no, you would still buy it then surely part P becomes irrelevant from a moving on perspective?

Handymac, on your website you say that 5-6 possibly less deaths are due to mains faults, yet on here you mention forensic examinations and fingerprints. Are these two points of view compatible? This is not meant as an attack in any way, I just dont see the problem being as draconian as you suggest for the future - possibly because I am not in the trade as you are?

I guess we will have to wait and see how things pan out but for now at least I shall continue to do my own electrics and deal with the problem of certification if it arises when I come to sell. How many of the general public do you think will have heard of part P and know to ask the spark they hire whether he is compliant? I suspect not many!

Steve


----------



## Anonymous (30 Nov 2004)

This is not really that new - just an extension of what has been in place in industry for years

The bottom line for years has been that the last person to work on a dangerous electrical installation is responsible for it being dangerous whether they actually carried out the work or not. The reasoning behind this is that anybody who carries out maintenance or retro-fit work has to be qualified and so should recognise and make good any defective installation/equipment.
This was something I was only too aware of during my years of electrical and electronic design on industrial control systems, where I was often the guy commisioning and then signing off my technicians work :? 

Ike, I would leave well alone.

Want any electrical work done? I checked and my ONC includes modules that qualify me as an electrician; and I know the 16th edition of the regs (not 17th edition though oops). Does it matter that I have never been employed as a sparky?? :wink: :lol: 

Blimey I could stop this lecturing lark and make a packet fitting plugs :wink:


----------



## ike (30 Nov 2004)

> Ike, I would leave well alone.



Now you tell me! I've been and done wiring (including several 3-phase workshop systems) for 30 odd years for myself and the college where I taught in Belize. I haven't zapped/set fire to anybody or anything so far <rushes off to find piece of unvarnished wood>.
:roll: 
Ike


----------



## ike (30 Nov 2004)

> Want any electrical work done? I checked and my ONC includes modules that qualify me as an electrician;



My apprenticeship had modules on wiring but it didn't qualify me to be an electrician. It did qualify me to safely undertake simple domestic wiring. Just because one doesn't have a bit of paper, it doesn't mean one is automatically, dangerously incompetent.

The bit of paper only shows that at a specific point in time, one was able to demonstrate sufficient knowledge of the craft. It doesn't prove that all electrical work will be 100 % safe, after all qualified electricians can and do get electrocuted.

My point is that someone with a technical/professional background, and a reasonable amount of commonsense can be perfectly capable of safe electrical work, at least for domestic wiring for oneself, not anybody else of course. 

Ike


----------



## Midnight (30 Nov 2004)

Given the state of the wiring in this place, any new work is bound to make it safer... Repeated attempts to get it inspected for safety by the council led to a half blind clerk-of-works coming round without any diagnostics gear... I've heard of many shortcuts in my time... but zen-diagnostics...???


----------



## woodshavings (30 Nov 2004)

What constitutes a "competent person" in terms of this act? I could not find any definition on the gov website. 
John


----------



## Anonymous (30 Nov 2004)

Ike 

My ONC included all of the modules for a city and guilds 232 industrial electricians qualification (not sure why I was put on this course!) - I studied an extra year to gain ONC.

I'm afraid I don't completely agree with your point. An electrician apprenticeship takes 4 years working with a skilled and experienced electrician and attending day or block release at a technical college for those 4 years. 
The bit of paper reflects an awful lot of knowledge and experience that the average joe has no idea about.
Sure, joe average knows that the red or brown are live and the black or blue are neutral but the electrician will know all about the electical regulations and how to test an installation safely and correctly, how to bond according to the regs, how faults are likely to develop, how to rate and de-rate cables for different installations, how to terminate mineral insulated and armoured cables correctly, how to protect equipment and people and a host of other things.

I am not knocking you or anyone else, just saying that puting wires in is a small part of the job/knowledge.




> The bit of paper only shows that at a specific point in time, one was able to demonstrate sufficient knowledge of the craft. It doesn't prove that all electrical work will be 100 % safe



All skilled craftsmen undertake a lifetime's learning in their craft and I cannot agree with the above point. I have had countless industrial electricians working for me in various companies and they all took pride in their knowledge and job. I have no direct experience of domestic electricians though



> My point is that someone with a technical/professional background, and a reasonable amount of commonsense can be perfectly capable of safe electrical work



Common sense does not even come into it. What you or anyone else considers safe does not come into it. 
All Electrical installations MUST comply with the IEE wiring regulations, currently 17th edition - failure will lead to prosecution and possibly criminal charges should someone be injured by a person's (skilled or not) work.

My final point is that in the last 24 years I have seen such electrical abominations that you would not believe - not in industrial buildings where skilled professional are employed but in peoples houses.


----------



## Anonymous (30 Nov 2004)

woodshavings":25nqr9yi said:


> What constitutes a "competent person" in terms of this act? I could not find any definition on the gov website.
> John



A competent person is one who is both qualified in the discipline and certified by the Institue of Electrical Engineers (IEE)

So, a time-served electrician (with city and guilds craft electrical course studied), an electrical technician (ONC, HNC, HND in electrical engineering or related), an electrical engineer (electrical engineering degree and possibly chartered) or anyone of similar background, i.e. having studied and practiced electrical engineering principles and knowledgeable about the electrical regulations.

Electrical engineering is a higly theoretical area - not just wires and plugs :wink:


----------



## Vormulac (1 Dec 2004)

woodshavings":1kbujacb said:


> What constitutes a "competent person" in terms of this act? I could not find any definition on the gov website.
> John



Asking the government to define a competant person is like asking a blind man to describe paisley. One simply has no concept of the other.

:wink: 

V.


----------



## Anonymous (1 Dec 2004)

Vormulac":1w2j2w21 said:


> woodshavings":1w2j2w21 said:
> 
> 
> > What constitutes a "competent person" in terms of this act? I could not find any definition on the gov website.
> ...



See above  :wink:


----------



## ike (1 Dec 2004)

> An electrician apprenticeship takes 4 years working with a skilled and experienced electrician and attending day or block release at a technical college for those 4 years.
> The bit of paper reflects an awful lot of knowledge and experience that the average joe has no idea about.
> Sure, joe average knows that the red or brown are live and the black or blue are neutral but the electrician will know all about the electical regulations and how to test an installation safely and correctly, how to bond according to the regs, how faults are likely to develop, how to rate and de-rate cables for different installations, how to terminate mineral insulated and armoured cables correctly, how to protect equipment and people and a host of other things.
> 
> I am not knocking you or anyone else, just saying that puting wires in is a small part of the job/knowledge.



What...and you think I don't realise any of that ? I'm not knocking your point of view. I've been through the same system with countless others - a different discipline granted. but pleassse give us mechanical engineers a little more credit. :wink: 

cheers

Ike


----------



## Anonymous (1 Dec 2004)

ike":32trlbi7 said:


> but pleassse give us mechanical engineers a little more credit. :wink:
> 
> cheers
> 
> Ike


All credit given. :wink: I am a lecturer in the Mechanical Engineering department :lol: (Instrumentaion and control of dynamic systems)


----------



## Anonymous (1 Dec 2004)

Interesting arguments going on here about what constitutes a competent electrician.

Just to bring this back to the original article for a moment. From the governments own mouth this Part P fiasco is designed literally to combat the loss of life involving electrical fatalities.

So it must be a big problem then with all those lives being lost.

From the governments own investigatory papers and also backed up from data freely available from the RoSPA web site, the number of lives lost each year from electrical fatalities which Part P could have an effect on is 4-6.

Now it is my view that these darwin-enabled species might just continue to pass away, and quite possibly in even greater numbers. Why? Because instead of people like me able to provide services costing not very much the customer will obtain quotes from competent electricians of probably 10x that amount - and so decide to do the work themselves without employing anyone.

End result: A few more sizzling bodies on the end of a piece of T&E.

Now just consider for a minute, if government spent all the money they are wasting on Part P (including mounting a radio advertising campaign in the coming weeks, bill board posters, you name it), how's about they used that money to buy a cat scan or 3 for hospitals etc? How many more lives might they be able to save - repeatedly - if they stopped fannying around trying to protect Joe Public from doing electrical work?

Andrew


----------



## Midnight (1 Dec 2004)

c'mon Tony... when last did ya see a sparkie working some pyro... or use a megger for that matter...??? BTW.. we're onto the 18th edition now 

I spent a couple of hours reading the regs last night... and for the most part, all I could see was a bunch of exemptions.. honestly.. I checked and triple checked to make damn sure it wasn't the meds messin with my head (it was late.....honest)... there's tons of work that ya could do that doesn't need notification...

The overall impression I got was that they want a C of C for the work done... I reckon if they failed to classify any and all properly qualified sparkies / engineers as competent personnel, there'd be a riot of biblical proportions.. 

I wonder how this affects their efforts to import tradesmen from foreign parts to make up for the lack of apprenticeships these past 25 years..???


----------



## Vormulac (2 Dec 2004)

Oh, there'll be an exemption for that, don't you worry...

V.


----------



## Anonymous (2 Dec 2004)

Midnight":3rlv4gxg said:


> c'mon Tony... when last did ya see a sparkie working some pyro... or use a megger for that matter...??? BTW.. we're onto the 18th edition now



Hi Mike 
Last time for pyro was a couple of years ago (fire alarm circuit), megger 1 month ago!!

As for the wiring regs there is NO 18th edition of the regs! 

Who says so? The IEE says so - I phoned and asked them not 10 minutes ago as I had not heard of 18th edition and as a member was a little concerned when I read your post - why wasn't I told kind of concerned :shock: .

The Current edition is the 16th (2001) with a brown cover which includes amendments 1 and 2 (not included in the blue cover version but avaialble online)


----------



## Les Mahon (2 Dec 2004)

An interesting topic this. I don't know what it's like in england 9moved home to ireland 8 years ago) but here the electricity suply board will not replace your meter and main fuse if the "tails" from the conumer unit are not certified by a certified electrician - To be a certified electrician you need to be part of the professional body, created and regualted by the electricans themselves!

I think self regulation is a good thing, in line with pevious posts the governement don't have the competancy to do it, but it worries my slightly that it could be open to abuse.

For myself, I completly re-wired my own house this year - The wiring that was in it when we bought it was original and completly knackered. Now the only thing I'm unhappy about in the whole thing is the connections from the main fuse, two dodgy looking pieces of 2.5mm cable!


----------



## Anonymous (2 Dec 2004)

Les Mahon":1qq14rzm said:


> I think self regulation is a good thing



It would have been very simple to provide self-regulation, without incurring the red tape of having to join a government quango costing hundreds of pounds per year.

The law should have been changed to require anyone doing electrical work making sure it was done to 16th edition standard. Presently (and historically) those standards are advisory only. You can ignore them and you aren't committing an offence.

Instead we've invented a system whereby qualified and experienced electricians are not to be trusted, and need a mother hen to go out and inspect their work on a frequent basis to ensure that it's up to standard.

To put this into perspective, how would it go down if you passed your driving test and then government issued a new law requiring you to have an examiner drop in to make sure you were still driving okay years later?

Part P is about you not being able to drive on the road unless you belong to the AA or RAC.....several times over.

Andrew


----------



## Anonymous (2 Dec 2004)

And you can expect your council tax bills to go up too. In order for local authorities to police this system they will have to employ more administrators at the local office, even if the certification work is subcontracted out.

Andrew


----------



## norman (2 Dec 2004)

Tony said:


> This is not really that new - just an extension of what has been in place in industry for years
> 
> The bottom line for years has been that the last person to work on a dangerous electrical installation is responsible for it being dangerous whether they actually carried out the work or not. The reasoning behind this is that anybody who carries out maintenance or retro-fit work has to be qualified and so should recognise and make good any defective installation/equipment.
> 
> ...


----------



## Midnight (2 Dec 2004)

> why wasn't I told kind of concerned .



  

'scuse me while I take care of an errant Engineer... I ummm... maybe gone some time....

Any good tips for gettin blood stains outa yer jeans....????

Wayyyyyy back while I was apprenticing, fresh outa training school I came across a sparkie running emergency lighting wire; spec said it needed to be fire proof... so I thought... pyro..... kewl....

turns out he's using some hi spec Pirelli stuff... looked 'orrible... fire rating met code and it cost less than half of pyro both in reel costs and labour... trying to find pyro thesedays is like finding hens teeth...

Megger's are a daily use tool in my line of work (dealing with up to 3kV in an offshore application), but I've yet to meet a domestic sparkie who's used a megger since college... Honestly... traditional diagnostics seems to be "suck it an see"... or at best, a quick look-see with an AVO or similar. In that respect, if these new regs tightens that up.... can it be such a bad thing....????????


----------



## Anonymous (3 Dec 2004)

Midnight":3cjnaqqk said:


> but I've yet to meet a domestic sparkie who's used a megger since college... Honestly... traditional diagnostics seems to be "suck it an see"... or at best, a quick look-see with an AVO or similar. In that respect, if these new regs tightens that up.... can it be such a bad thing....????????



To be fair Mike, I don't have anything to do with domestics or domestic sparkies. 

Closest I came was when I had to go around with the city engineers testing installations of some kit our company made and installed in homes (Earth loop impedance + insulation resistance + RCD trip time, current and fault trip times) and I expected that these tests would be carried out on every installation.


Suck it and see???? - SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree, tightening regs must be a good thing - 30mA (0.03A) at 240V kills :twisted:


----------



## Anonymous (1 Jan 2005)

When I moved into our present house I was worried about the electrics as to me it was simply a 'rats nest' of cable draped randomly around the loft. Further investigation found cut wires with taped ends, bundles of wires twisted together and wrapped with tape, sometimes the wires actually went into terminal strips, but not always and never in a junction box. I was stunned that the surveyor hadn't picked it up, especially as I asked for the utilities to be checked. The breaker panel also has some interesting loop connections as I have to turn off two breakers to isolate the bedrooms but only one for the kitchen, and the latter also kills the dinig room lights (3 rooms distant), the shed has a switch that doesn't appear to do anything other than trip the main breaker..... The list is endless.

After a long argument with the surveyor, he brought in an electrician (at their cost) who tested the whole house circuit and passed it as safe!!!!! (I wonder if he worked for ManWeb?)

During the past 4 years I have been sorting out some of the mess, bit by bit as I renovate the house. I am also a skilled electrician (that's what it says on my card anyway).

I guess I'll now keep the electrician's report that says the house is safe, leave the rest of the mess of wires, and hope for the best.... The switch in the shed still trips the main breaker.

I wonder what they'd make of my 110 Volt circuit in my workshop? Wired to US code, incidentally, once past the transformer (basically the sockets are upside-down with the earth at the bottom!).


----------



## dennyk (8 Nov 2005)

What happens if the sparks who re-wired your house has moved and not left a forwarding address?

What if the house was re-wired 30 years ago according to the NEW regulations that came out then, would the wiring be OK now?

I am not an incompetent, I rewired my Garage/ Workshop 4 years ago, it has its own fuse board ( contact breakers) plus RGB's for portable tools, I had an electrician check it all for me, he told me he could not have done it any better, everything was up to standard, How do I stand under Part B?


----------



## dennyk (8 Nov 2005)

Talking about Government creating regulatory bodies.

Just look at the fiasco the FSA caused!!!!


----------



## ike (8 Nov 2005)

> How do I stand under Part B



To avoid serious injury in case PArt B gives way and collapses without warning, you are only allowed to stand under Part B if you are wearing a safety helmet, safety shoes and glasses, otherwise you WILL be prosecuted, (or possibly electrocuted) - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

Ike


----------

