# Chisels



## titan (11 Nov 2007)

Hello all,

My first post although I have been reading the forum for a while. I am building my own house ( for some time :  )
it is an Oak frame and I am now moving on to second fix and beyond. I have a fair amount of Oak sticked drying some of it six years old so I expect the 6 x 6 beams will be air dried by now. I have just bought a bandsaw and planer thicknesser and recently re-sawed and prepared some Oak for a frame and doors for an external meter box. I am ready for making the joints and realise the cheap chisels I have are not really the required quality. I have searched the forum and investigated the popularity of Japanese chisels but find a lot of conflicting information reading the various sites. I like the idea of a harder steel especially for Oak but am put off a little by the possible fragility of the edge due to the brittleness. I have a couple of Sorby heavy duty chisels which have been great on green Oak but don't know whether to stick with Sorby for the finer work or get some Japanese chisels or even two cherries. I am happy to pay for quality tools but the work I have planned is not cabinet work. Any comments welcome.

thanks

Ian


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## Karl (11 Nov 2007)

Ian

I have the heavy duty Japanese Chu-usu Nomi chisels for larger scale work - see here http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Iyoroi-Japanese-Chu-usu-Nomi-Chisels-21854.htm

I haven't had any problems with them to date, and I have been extremely pleased with them. I have the 18mm, 24mm and 36mm. No broken edges to date.

Cheers

Karl


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## matthewwh (12 Nov 2007)

Hi Ian,

I can't be too specific in terms of brands etc as I run a tool business, but hopefully I can clear up the whole hard vs brittle thing for you and help you make a more informed choice.

Pure carbon steel, be it Japanese or Sheffield O1 used by most English makers, becomes brittle when it is hardened. Taken straight from the quench it would shatter if you hit it with a hammer. To exchange some of the hardness for toughness it must be tempered by heating it gently to around 200 degrees, cooler tempering temperatures remove less of the hardness, warmer ones remove more.

RC60 - 61 is approximately the point at which the hardness and toughness balance is optimised and it is this point that most good quality English toolmakers aim for. If you think of it in terms of toffee, there are hard ones that snap like a werthers original, others are really chewy like a toffo and then just occasionally theres one that is right on the sweet spot between the two and will break your teeth and rip your fillings out - this last one is properly forged carbon steel at RC60 - 61. Very easy to sharpen, takes a superb edge and is tough as old boots.

The Japanese laminate their blades with iron, which is largely unaffected by the heat treatment process (in toffee terms it's always chewy). Because of this reinforcing / supporting layer, they can temper at cooler temperatures, leaving the steel layer at RC62 - 63 and still produce a strong blade. It doesn't sound like a lot but it does significantly increase the ability of the steel to resist abrasion, therefore making a very durable edge in terms of wear. 

In terms of impact resistance, because the steel is more brittle (like a werthers original) the Japanese use steeper bevel angles to avoid chipping, typically around 33 degrees for the main bevel; English chisels tend to have the main bevels ground at 25 to 30. 

At the end of the day, good quality English and Japanese Chisels are both highly evolved solutions to the hard / tough / brittle problem and will knock anything made from spanner metal into a cocked hat. For your selection criteria I would put far more importance on the right blade shape for your work and what feels right and comfortable in your hand than on the internal composition of the blade. 

Hope this helps!


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## WellsWood (12 Nov 2007)

Beautifully descriptive and highly educational Mathew, thank you.

Baby keeping you up then? :wink: :lol:


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## matthewwh (12 Nov 2007)

MarkW":1g6mu0ws said:


> Baby keeping you up then? :wink: :lol:



Hi Mark,

How's it going? 

The little man has been fantastic so far, bottle of milk and a story at seven o'clock and he's asleep right through 'til seven the next morning. Touch wood! (if you'll pardon the expression).


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## WellsWood (12 Nov 2007)

Fine Matt, thanks.

PM sent.


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## Paul Kierstead (12 Nov 2007)

Lovely explanation!

And ...



matthewwh":goklt7na said:


> ... and will knock anything made from spanner metal into a cocked hat.



_Will_ get used. Awesome turn of a phrase!



> For your selection criteria I would put far more importance on the right blade shape for your work and what feels right and comfortable in your hand than on the internal composition of the blade.



The single thing that seems to be missed the most. Very astute advice, I'd be trying to buy stuff from you if I was on the right side of the pond.


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## titan (12 Nov 2007)

karlley":20cjwcj3 said:


> I have the heavy duty Japanese Chu-usu Nomi chisels for larger scale work I have the 18mm, 24mm and 36mm. No broken edges to date.



Thanks for the feedback Karl.

Ian


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## titan (12 Nov 2007)

matthewwh":3fmxfbwm said:


> hopefully I can clear up the whole hard vs brittle thing for you and help you make a more informed choice.
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, good quality English and Japanese Chisels are both highly evolved solutions to the hard / tough / brittle problem . For your selection criteria I would put far more importance on the right blade shape for your work and what feels right and comfortable in your hand than on the internal composition of the blade.




Matthew,

Thanks for the explanation although I am quite happy with the metallurgy and manufacturing process, my background is engineering but I have read several articles mentioning the real possibility of blade chipping with the Japanese chisels when used for anything other than fine cabinet making. You would think if the best European chisels are using the same steel at a finer bevel they would be more prone to chipping but I have not seen that mentioned anywhere. I was just asking if anyone out there in the real world has seen this problem. I see also some Japanese chisels are now being made from a version of HSS.

Ian


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## Taffy Turner (12 Nov 2007)

Ian,

FWIW I have the Two Cherries set which I bought from Axminster. I use these a lot in Oak and find them to be excellent. They hold their edge really well. I have never used Japanese chisels so can't offer an opinion there.

If I was buying the Two Cherries set again I would have gone for the un-polished set as advised by others on here (do a search), as flattening the backs was a bit of a marathon on my set.

Regards

Gary


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## woodbloke (12 Nov 2007)

An excellent analogy of the hardening and tempering process...thanks Matt. Fwiw, I've used the Axminster jap chisels and they've been very good indeed but do need to be honed as Matt has said to a steeper angle like 33deg. I now prefer the A2 LN chisels which also benefit from a higher honing angle of 33deg. The normal 30deg angle that I used to use for conventional English carbon steel edges will simply make an A2 edge crumble...had it happen  - Rob


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## pam niedermayer (12 Nov 2007)

The Atsu and Chutaka are quite strong chisels and intended for carpentry. Couple of other things about Japanese chisels: 1) it's very important to use the proper chisel for the job at hand, not doing so will likely lead to broken chisles and/or wood; and 2) it's a good idea to break in Japanese chisels, take them through a couple of gentle use/sharpening sessions before pounding away, seems that they sometimes need work hardening, tempering, whatever.

Pam


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## David C (13 Nov 2007)

Pam,

There is a long established consensus in the west, that the best metal is to be found after a few sharpenings or grindings, in all edge tools, as the tip of a bevel cdoes not harden and temper as well as the main bulk.

Toshio Odate's story about sun baking new Japanese plane blades on a hot tin roof is most intrigueing.

I have always found that professional grade Japanese chisels outperform European chisels by a significant margin, but there are some rather nasty cheap ones about which are best avoided.

Matthew,
I have my doubts whether many UK chisels are hardened to Rc 61?

Which ones do you think are please?

best wishes,
David


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## matthewwh (13 Nov 2007)

Hi David,

I was thinking specifically of Ashley Iles in this case, with RC61 being the aiming point with a slight tolerance below (chewy) but not above (brittle). 

The AI ranges that we stock (Bevel Edged, Butt and Dovetail) are all forged O1 and they aim to get as close to RC61 as possible without going over it. In the catalogue they state RC59 - 61 allowing two degrees of tolerance, in practice, when the tools are tested before final grinding they are almost invariably within one degree.

Some makers use slightly different steels which have different optimum hardnesses. The low alloy EN47 that Robert Sorby use in their bevel edged chisels optimises at RC60 so they harden to RC58 - 60 in order to stay just on the tough side of the optimum. Their paring chisels are EN45 because the priority here is to produce a strong springy blade that will hold a very fine edge with the minimal support offered by the 20 degree bevel, hardness is secondary as paring chisels don't generally do enough "wood miles" to suffer from mechanical abrasion. Even so, with the triple tempering they use to achieve the required phenomenally fine grain structure they are still able to achieve a very respectable RC58.

Rockwell hardness merely gives us an indication of resistance to mechanical abrasion, which is only one of many factors to consider in choosing the right chisel. If this is a particular priority, for work in abrasive timbers like Teak, Iroko or Kauri for example, then good Japanese chisels (you're quite right there are some woeful examples out there) and LN's A2 range both score very well in terms of Rockwell hardness, albeit by very different means. In both cases though, this comes at the price of requiring steeper bevel angles to prevent edge failure via chipping or bending respectively. That said, as long as the manufacurers recommended angles are maintained, end users are very unlikely to encounter a problem and with good honing technique both will still take a very useable edge.


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## newt (13 Nov 2007)

I have read that the Japanese work mainly in softwood, if this is the case does it have any influence on their chisel design?


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## David C (13 Nov 2007)

Matthew,

Very interesting and in depth answer.

Thank you.

David


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## MarcW (13 Nov 2007)

Hi all,

I once wrote that Two Cherries are now (then) available only ground and not polished. I bought three of those. I got deceived by flattening the face (side opposite of the bevel) because two of the three had a hollow and were even torn... Other woodworkers confirmed me they too had problems with the ground geometry.

Two Cherry offers an important advantage by producing this unreached range of different sizes, going from 2 mm to 32 mm in 2 mm steps and from 35mm to 50 mm in 5mm steps. If you have imperial sized tools, you could hesitate. 

IMHO Two Cherries has an acceptable price-performance ratio. Keeping in mind that they need some fettling. As I don't like the handles, I turned other ones...

For cabinetmaking I'd reach for the LNs or some professional graded japanese chisels.


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## pam niedermayer (13 Nov 2007)

I bought a small set of 2 Cherries about four years ago from Dieter, when a dollar was worth something , they were only $70 or so, and found them a great bargain. I know nothing about their quality today. Of course, I never really checked for flat backs, simply used them out of the box. Ignorance is truly bliss.

I normally use Japanese chisels for everything, but this set of six allowed me to fill in some blanks on the cheap.

Pam


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## sparky (13 Nov 2007)

Just a thought here  

I thought to to recommend Barr chisels. I have a set of their cabinet makers chisels 1/4"- 1" and they are TOUGH and take an awesome edge very easily and hold it for a long time. Barr makes chisels mainly for timber framing so these cabinet maker chisels are up to any task that your oak would have. They may not be delicate enough to do the finest of cabinet work but from what you describe I thought that I would recommend them. Now with the dollar as weak as it is that might be an advantage but then there are all those taxes that you have for importing. Just a suggestion as I think that you can't beat his quality...he learned metalworking from a japanese sword smith.



http://www.barrtools.com/

sparky


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## bugbear (14 Nov 2007)

newt":x3radouv said:


> I have read that the Japanese work mainly in softwood, if this is the case does it have any influence on their chisel design?



The Japanese work in a range of woods - their planes are made from very hard (Japanese) Oak.

However, in the west, their Shoji work (in softwood) has achieved disproportionate publicity, leading to a deceptive view.

BugBear


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## titan (14 Nov 2007)

sparky":qbhxiu0k said:


> Just a thought here
> 
> I thought to to recommend Barr chisels. I have a set of their cabinet makers chisels 1/4"- 1"
> 
> sparky



They look really nice, but a quick calculation adding on import duty and vat would make them about £230 here for the four chisels.


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## mr (14 Nov 2007)

matthewwh":r6der5kd said:


> I was thinking specifically of Ashley Iles in this case, with RC61 being the aiming point with a slight tolerance below (chewy) but not above (brittle).



I've got a few of the AI bench chisels,in my limited experience ( I know others swear by them) they are very brittle, I wouldn't buy more of them I don't think.

Cheers Mike


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## matthewwh (14 Nov 2007)

mr":h305zpi6 said:


> I've got a few of the AI bench chisels,in my limited experience ( I know others swear by them) they are very brittle, I wouldn't buy more of them I don't think.
> 
> Cheers Mike



Hi Mike,

If you pop them in the post to me with a note of your address, I'll arrange to have them checked and re-tempered if necessary then send them back to you.


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## mr (14 Nov 2007)

Thanks for the offer Mathew, however they have already been back to AI, have to say that you can't fault AI s service for want of a better word. They still chip out at the end though, praps I'm just too rough with them though they don't get malleted at all. 

Cheers Mike


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## MarcW (14 Nov 2007)

sparky":1tggxfvm said:


> ... I have a set of their cabinet makers chisels 1/4"- 1"
> ...
> 
> sparky



Sparky and all,

Would you mind posting a pic of your set and may I query a detail pic of the cross section of one of those? I never came close to a Barr chisel but heard only good things about...

Pam, 

I had to smile reading that you didn't even flatten the face of the Two Cherries. Chisels like those come in handy to do rough work but unconsciously we don't cherish them as we do with other tools of which we know someone had put great attention to their making.


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## mr (14 Nov 2007)

MarcW":2qwpicsa said:


> I had to smile reading that you didn't even flatten the face of the Two Cherries. Chisels like those come in handy to do rough work but unconsciously we don't cherish them as we do with other tools of which we know someone had put great attention to their making.



And amusingly the tools that someone has put great attention into making don't or shouldn't (IMHO) require further fettling.
Cheers Mike


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## David C (14 Nov 2007)

I have never yet encountered a chisel which did not require back flattening and polishing.

Just one of those wierd oddities of the woodworking trade?

Odd really, as we expect our cars and white goods to work.......

David


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## mr (14 Nov 2007)

David C":f7am0v9k said:


> I have never yet encountered a chisel which did not require back flattening and polishing.
> David



Likewise though I always expect that the better ones should be free from that requirement. I am often disappointed. 

Cheers Mike


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## David C (14 Nov 2007)

Often or always?

David


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## mr (14 Nov 2007)

Regarding chisels - to date - often, I have one LN mortise chisel which was sufficiently flat out of the box for my purposes. None of my other chisels have been "perfect" out of the wrapper as far as I can recall. 
Cheers Mike


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## dirtydeeds (14 Nov 2007)

thats a curious notion, the first thing that sprang to mind was japanese oak


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## matthewwh (14 Nov 2007)

*Big Rant coming up*


David C":2w6anda8 said:


> Odd really, as we expect our cars and white goods to work.......
> 
> David


 David,

Please don't take offence, as this is intended with the highest possible regard for your skills and standards, which the vast majority of us aspire, one day, to approach.

Given the performance that a highly tuned 'street car' is capable of on the track, versus the performance level that we would drive off the dealer's forcourt, I would suggest that tool consumers get an incredibly good deal from their manufacturers. 

Suppliers like Clifton, Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Richard Kell, Ashley Iles and Sorby work bloody hard to deliver products that are within sensible tolerances of perfection. Yes, they can be tuned for higher performance levels, but would the average high-end consumer be willing to fork out for the extra labour required when with one of your DVD's and a couple of hours of shop practice, they can achieve, and most crucially, maintain the same standards themselves? 

The very finest Japanese chisels are usually delivered blunt as a babys ar53 and without the hoops fitted, yet no one would suggest that Tasai San, Fujihide San or Iyoroi San and their serious competitors were delivering anything but the very finest products that money can buy. 

I have no intention of trying to belittle the standards that you set, however I would seriously question the proportions of your analogy.


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## pam niedermayer (15 Nov 2007)

MarcW":t9or5syg said:


> sparky":t9or5syg said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Marc, it was a very tongue in cheek statement. I did use the 2 Cherries right out of their box (also nicely crafted) with no preparation; but they were apparently in great shape, ready to go. I took them to a weekly woodworking class where I was making a fine cherry table, didn't want to expose the Japanese chisels to the machinery using heathens. They did a great job.

True, I cherish my Japanese, Dastra, antique US laminated, and UK chisels more; but I suspect that's because I had to work more hours to obtain them.

Pam


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## Racers (15 Nov 2007)

Hi,

I have loads of top quality chisels often bought for a pound from cat boot sales Ebay etc and a set of new Marples/Stanley for taking out on jobs with me (I chipped my favourite old cast steel Marples that is hard as nails and it took forever to grind back on my waterstones) Some of the old chisels have two names stamped on them, I will have to add mine, that’s 3 generations of use. I can't think why I would ever buy new chisels unless to replace my taking out chisels then they would be new Marples/Stanley.


Pete


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## David C (15 Nov 2007)

Matthew,

Great rant, thoroughly enjoyed, and spot on.

I will give it some thought before posting a counter rant on behalf of the legion of weekend warriors who struggle with their tools instead of enjoying best performance.

best wishes,
David


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## ike (15 Nov 2007)

david c wrote:



> on behalf of the legion of weekend warriors who struggle with their tools instead of enjoying best performance.



Tool 'performance' is the least of it. It's mostly about getting skilled and for a lot of us - being hampered in the process by having to wear the bins!

Ike


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## mr (15 Nov 2007)

ike":2a5vvijx said:


> being hampered in the process by having to wear the bins!
> 
> Ike



If I follow you correct, I have to agree, I find my tediously poor eyesight is a real obstacle to good work. 

Cheers Mike.


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## sparky (15 Nov 2007)

MarcW":y975xzu6 said:


> sparky":y975xzu6 said:
> 
> 
> > ... I have a set of their cabinet makers chisels 1/4"- 1"
> ...



Ill see what I can do. A pic of my chisels would be my first posted pic so what angle(s) would you like.

and how would I post a pic anyway

Sparky


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## CHJ (15 Nov 2007)

mr":ucmj7imh said:


> ......
> If I follow you correct, I have to agree, I find my tediously poor eyesight is a real obstacle to good work.
> Cheers Mike.



Having been involved with fine detail work for many years, often using large diameter magnification lenses, when vision problems started to become a nuisance during a spell at a drawing board I got a pair of mid distance glasses and asked for a magnification factor to be added.

Ever since those times whenever my main specs have needed replacing due to abuse, slow drift of vision parameters etc. I have used the option of 'second pairs' to have a pair prescribed for close/mid distance with an increased magnification, it means that print this big is readable on a monitor and close work on the bench or lathe is aided without struggling to align the bi-focals.


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## MrJay (15 Nov 2007)

Grrr bench chisels. I've been looking for some olde englandish examples to replace my plastic handled marples DIY specials for maybe 12 months or so. So far I've only found two not banana shaped enough to be worth buying, and one of them was American. I think Ashly Iles will be getting a call before very long.


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## bugbear (16 Nov 2007)

MrJay":jg61gosj said:


> Grrr bench chisels. I've been looking for some olde englandish examples to replace my plastic handled marples DIY specials for maybe 12 months or so. So far I've only found two not banana shaped enough to be worth buying, and one of them was American. I think Ashly Iles will be getting a call before very long.



Second hand chisels with decent blade lengths have always been a little thin on the ground, and bevel edged versions really quite rare.

It took me a long time (5 years) to get a decent range of BE chisels (around 3/16" - 1") at good prices (under 3 quid each)

BugBear (patient and cheap)


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## pam niedermayer (16 Nov 2007)

MrJay":ihyqrcwg said:


> Grrr bench chisels. I've been looking for some olde englandish examples to replace my plastic handled marples DIY specials for maybe 12 months or so....



I've found that as I've obtained the specialty chisels I need, such as morticing and paring, I no longer need bench chisels. So while I may keep the small set of 2 cherries, just in case, I'll probably sell the large set of Japanese bench chisels.

Pam


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## David C (16 Nov 2007)

Pam,

This demonstrates interesting differences of technique?

I chose to chop my dovetail shoulder lines instead of paring, (faster and more accurate in my opinion) and would not be without a set of bench chisels. How else is one to remove the waste from single lap dovetails and secret mitres, what else chops back to a dado line so nicely as a wide Japanese bench chisel etc etc

These are instant thoughts and not any kind of criticism.

best wishes,
David


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## MarcW (16 Nov 2007)

David,

I used to pare dovetail shoulder lines, often enough with a clamped batten that would guide the cut, sometimes I glued wet and dry on the batten. This worked okay but I never was quite satisfied by the method, because the batten tended to slide, and was difficult to put exactly at the guaged line. After watching your last DVD on chisels, I changed to your chopping method. No fuss, much less time, no setup, no stress, just pure ww pleisure... I like those moments when someone takes the devil out of the work 8)


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## David C (16 Nov 2007)

Marc,

So glad you like chopping.

The good old Krenov guide block still gets very occasional use here but not for DT shoulders.

The problem is to clamp the guide block in exactly the right place.

David


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## pam niedermayer (17 Nov 2007)

David C":254n4x55 said:


> Pam,
> 
> This demonstrates interesting differences of technique?
> 
> ...




I usually chop my dovetails, too, just don't use bench chisels, might use light weight chutaki (carpenter's, kind of between oire and atsu) or atsu (heavy duty mortise chisels in larger sizes) or shinogi (often called dovetail, not because they're specifically for dovetails but because they look like dove tails).

Pam


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## David C (17 Nov 2007)

Pam,

Thank you, lots of chisels ~;-)#

David


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## matthewwh (17 Nov 2007)

David / Marc



David C":1p4dyyt8 said:


> I chose to chop my dovetail shoulder lines instead of paring, (faster and more accurate in my opinion)
> David



Now I'm really intreagued, I chop AND pare my DT's making a triangular shaped cutout (I always thought the two kinda went together) does this mean I'm doing twice as much work as I need to? Or do I need to invest in another DVD to quench my thirst for edification?


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## David C (18 Nov 2007)

Matthew,

I think that is the European method.

I was taught to saw waste with piercing or Jewellers saw with 18 tpi fretsaw blade installed. For huge dovetails Coping saw is used.

This gets you close to shoulder lines, then perhaps two chopping cuts which go half way through, from both sides finishes the majority of the line.

The advantage of this method is that only one final cut is made from the cut shoulder line, minimizing bruising and compression. If shoulder lines are cut in fairly deep with a sharp cutting gauge or equivalent, I dont even have to grip the chisel handle as the edge seats securely in the gauge line. 

After release cut, I then pare into the corners with a slightly skewed chisel, not a skew chisel.

SEE Book 3 page 114 and book 1 page 66 & 73 or of course DVD 5 ~;-)#

David


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## woodbloke (18 Nov 2007)

David C wrote:


> I was taught to saw waste with piercing or Jewellers saw with 18 tpi fretsaw blade installed. For huge dovetails Coping saw is used.
> 
> This gets you close to shoulder lines, then perhaps two chopping cuts which go half way through, from both sides finishes the majority of the line.



I use much the same method, I was also taught to* very* slightly undercut the surface at the shoulder line. Corners are then cleaned out with a 'shop-made knife, blade made from an old cut throat razor with a very large grippy handle which means that I can have a lot of control over how it's used - Rob


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## pam niedermayer (18 Nov 2007)

matthewwh":2lah3rfv said:


> Now I'm really intreagued, I chop AND pare my DT's making a triangular shaped cutout (I always thought the two kinda went together) does this mean I'm doing twice as much work as I need to? Or do I need to invest in another DVD to quench my thirst for edification?



Yes, more of everyting, conspicuous consumers always welcome, especially if you increase your credit card debt at the same time. 

I chop and then pare at the line, trim the corners as needed. If the dovetails are really small and narrow, I pare all the way.

Pam


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## TonyW (18 Nov 2007)

Rob, your shop made knife looks great - can see it runs of AA 1.5volts what size is the motor  

Cheers  
Tony


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## Racers (18 Nov 2007)

Hi,

Here are my cast steel chisels I wa susing them today and thought you might like to see them, not matching handles or all beval edge but cracking steel and loads of history.





Pete


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## bugbear (19 Nov 2007)

Racers":a1vax994 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here are my cast steel chisels I wa susing them today and thought you might like to see them, not matching handles or all beval edge but cracking steel and loads of history.
> 
> Pete



VERY nice.

BugBear (with similar, but lesser)


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## matthewwh (19 Nov 2007)

David C":141uueos said:


> I was taught to saw waste with piercing or Jewellers saw with 18 tpi fretsaw blade installed. For huge dovetails Coping saw is used.
> 
> This gets you close to shoulder lines, then perhaps two chopping cuts which go half way through, from both sides finishes the majority of the line.
> 
> ...



~;-)# A bearded smiley... outstanding!!!

Thanks David - that makes a lot of sense. DVD #5 is definitely on the Christmas list too, I've yet to watch one that didn't save me hours of time in the workshop. 

I have been playing around with different methods quite a bit in the past few months, whilst trialling prototypes of dovetail chisels. One method you might find interesting was using chisels for initial laying out instead of a knife.

I'd start with a single cut with the marking gauge, then definine the baseline of each socket individually using a light chopping cut with a chisel, registered in the marked line. Another two chops define the sides, always keeping the bevel towards the waste, and give you a nice crisp edge to saw against. I still carried the marks around the end with a square and marking knife as this proved to be more accurate.

Once the waste is removed, you use the same chisel that you laid the joint out with to clean up the baseline, thus ensuring a nice flat bottom and a bare minimum of fluff in the corners. A final clean around with a cabinetmakers fishtail skew and you're done. If I can get this image to appear you will see a laid out DT on the left showing the initial tapped in baseline and sawn shoulders, cleaning one up with the FT Skew, one waiting for the final clean up of the baseline and the edge of a finished one.










Pete,

That looks like a good set, most of them probably only on their second woodworker, and nothing wrong with firmers either. In fact many of the chisels sold these days are actually firmers with the corners ground off rather than true bevel edged chisels. If you ever do feel the need for matching handles let me know.

Has anyone heard from Ian by the way? Just wondering what he plumped for in the end.


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## Racers (19 Nov 2007)

Hi, matthew

Some of them are on their 3rd owner now, they are my selected ones I have another tool roll full of ones like these but not as nice, I have a 1 1/2 bevel edge Sorby that didn't make the grade as its to long to fit in the roll!! I also have a nice set of gouges and some paring chisels and gouges, I guess I have a problem I must have about 70 chisels and gouges. 

Pete


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## MarcW (20 Nov 2007)

matthewwh":4f8pyqhm said:


> ...
> Has anyone heard from Ian by the way? Just wondering what he plumped for in the end.



That would interest me too. As I'm not sure anymore of what I recommended earlier during this thread. Four days before this thread started I ordered two bench chisels from LN and did not yet get them. So if I was asked once again which ones to recommend, I'd say those that are available even if you have to cope with new handles and lots of fettling... :?


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## bugbear (22 Nov 2007)

woodbloke":3p830fxm said:


>



Nice use of AA battery as an (almost?) universal item of size reference.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (22 Nov 2007)

BB wrote -


> AA battery as an (almost?) universal item of size reference.


...apart from a 50p piece possibly? - Rob


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## bugbear (22 Nov 2007)

woodbloke":1xfya3xr said:


> BB wrote -
> 
> 
> > AA battery as an (almost?) universal item of size reference.
> ...



That works about as well as the dimes our American friends are prone to.

BugBear


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## titan (22 Nov 2007)

MarcW":20cjcktb said:


> matthewwh":20cjcktb said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...




Yes I have been following the tread, although I have now finished the frame and doors using my old Stanley chisels. I have spent a bit of time researching Japanese tools also been reading the Japanese tool sections of the American and Australian woodworking forums, I am considering getting a set direct from Japan ( top quality at a reasonable price) but that will be a 4 month wait for the ones I want.
There seems to be the die forged chisels at the lower end of the market, the hand forged by the top makers at the top of the market and anything in between, that is based on price but of course I would expect quality also. Most of the ones I could find for sale in the UK don't even name the manufacturer and a few seem well overpriced. The German suppliers seem to have a better selection and name the makers, the prices also look logical. 
I bought a couple of chisels off ebay, described as a new Tateguya Nomi ( I think it is Tataki Nomi ) heavy duty Mortice chisel made by Iyoroi in about 1996/7, I will be giving this a serious work out to see how the edge stands up. So in conclusion you can buy some no name Japanese chisels from the usual outlets or a set of Sorby 166 or 167 for the same money or Two Cherries for less. Or of course get caught up in the whole Japanese hand made chisel thing and spend far more than necessary just for function. I might just go for the latter which I would get next spring and get a couple of Sorbys in the meantime.

Ian


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## Pekka Huhta (26 Nov 2007)

I'm cutting in very late, but a friend just asked about where to get good a chisel set and the first thing that popped into my mind was the Ray Iles bevel edge/london pattern set. 

http://www.oldtools.free-online.co.uk/edgetools.htm

Has anyone any experience about these? The price is definitely tempting, and if the chisels are any good it might be a good set. 

Pekka


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## MarcW (26 Nov 2007)

titan":1idqfk8o said:


> ...
> So in conclusion you can buy some no name Japanese chisels from the usual outlets or a set of Sorby 166 or 167 for the same money or Two Cherries for less. Or of course get caught up in the whole Japanese hand made chisel thing and spend far more than necessary just for function. I might just go for the latter which I would get next spring and get a couple of Sorbys in the meantime.
> 
> Ian



Ian,

If you want to buy Sorbys which certainly is a good brand, I'd reconsider the LNs. There is no difference in price, but there is one in making them work.

I have both and albeit the Sorbys have marvelous handles and good geometry, the grinding is relatively coarse compared to the LNs. I received additional chisels (half inch and one inch) on Thursday and flattened the backs of both, sharpened to 30° and honed to a tad more - under 15 minutes both. That is very impressive.


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