# Rubbish Joinery



## custard

A local builder called me a few days ago to see if I could machine him up some custom door linings in Oak. 

I know almost nothing about joinery work, but following his plans was straightforward. So this morning I dropped them off at his job. While there I saw some of the other, more "standard" door linings he was fitting. They were short hardwood staves, about 22mm x 22mm x 200mm, all glued up together and then wrapped with an Oak veneer. They didn't look particularly good to me, but I'm no expert. When I pointed this out he said those were a long way from being the worst, and there are some door linings that are just MDF wrapped with veneer. 

I was shocked, how can the weight of a door be hung from less than an inch of MDF? 

A question to the joiners on the forum, is that really representative of modern joinery work?


----------



## ColeyS1

That doesn't sound very good at all. Sometimes all people see is the money that can be saved at the time. It's a false economy trying to cut corners and use inferior materials/products.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## AndyT

They're very unlikely to read this, so I can add that some friends recently had some softwood windows installed which they were surprisingly pleased with.
The surrounding trim - architrave, window board etc - is made of very fast grown glued together strips with feathered end joints. It also has sapwood and resin pockets.
Some of the pieces are about 6mm short of what they should be, so the fitter left gaps at the ends. Maybe that's intentional, and it's an eco-friendly place for the spiders to hide in?


----------



## Doug71

Howden joinery oak veneered MDF door linings with oak veneered MDF skirting and architrave to match, hate the stuff.


----------



## custard

Here's some rubbish cabinet making to go with the rubbish joinery.

I spotted these chairs in a client's house, apparently they weren't cheap (and based on the other furniture in their house I doubt they shop at Oak Furniture Land), but look at how they're made. The back leg is built up from shorter Oak staves and then machined to shape.


----------



## tony_s

Repairing and altering similar pieces is, to quite a degree, my daily bread. I think many would be shocked if they could see beneath the surface of some of these "higher end" pieces of furniture. 0.6mm thick veneers would be a luxury for example!


----------



## pollys13

AndyT":19ws2w9b said:


> They're very unlikely to read this, so I can add that some friends recently had some softwood windows installed which they were surprisingly pleased with.
> The surrounding trim - architrave, window board etc - is made of very fast grown glued together strips with feathered end joints. It also has sapwood and resin pockets.
> Some of the pieces are about 6mm short of what they should be, so the fitter left gaps at the ends. Maybe that's intentional, and it's an eco-friendly place for the spiders to hide in?



Maybe that's intentional, and it's an eco-friendly place for the spiders to hide in? I like that one


----------



## johnnyb

Pretty much. Softwood casings can be bad but at least there redwood and chunky. Softwood linings are spruce and real rubbish. Mdf linings are mostly hated but they do give a better paint finish.(to me) joinery trends have to be delivered as cheaply as possible. So if oak linings are needed there usually not solid. A typical oak door costs £65 plus vat! I guess a solid oak internal door would cost more than that just for the wood. People are often shocked there expensive doors are chipboard!


----------



## Adam9453

Funnily enough mdf is allowed for fire rated door frames providing it’s at least 700kg/m3 density and above a minimum section size stipulated. You’d be horrified how many expensive developments have mdf frames, either spray painted or wrapped in veneer. 
Wrapping in veneer is popular as you can maintain a consistent veneer finish over the door and frame but typically we’d recommend veneering over tulipwood or Sapele depending on fire rating required. Considering fire doors can easily be 80kg plus, I’d hate to rely on fixings into mdf to support its weight!!


----------



## HOJ

I would also suggest "Carpenters" need to take stock, how do they not expect to get call backs when the doors start falling off! fixing into less than 30mm of MDF is asking for trouble from the start.

I have also seen on quite a few occasions that they have fixed the linings vertically in line behind the stops, so as not to spoil the look.


----------



## mr edd

Most shop bought joinery i.e howdens etc is a world away from the from the doors and lining's etc produced by a good small custom joinery shop. 

A fact that can lost be on some 'potential customers' who expect to get things like 4 panelled solid doors for around the same price or cheaper as moulded hollow core/egg box style from Wikes/howdens etc 

I hesitate to call most of what Howden's produce joinery, 'its joined Jim but not as we know it'

I fact i had a customer recently who wanted her modern doors replaced with something more in keeping in her newly purchased Victorian house. 
The brief was for solid pine 4 panel doors (without going down the custom route which is my preferred) which you used to be able to buy from Jeldwen/ magnet etc.
I was told by the rep that they no longer produced a mortise and tenoned solid pine door, they are nearly all veneered chipboard cored. 
I think there has been a decrease in the quality of joinery redwood in the last 15 years, so i prefer to use dougie fir for joinery instead, it is one of the few woods you can specify vertical grain for the door stiles as well. However recently i can get Sapele marginally cheaper than Douglas Fir so..........


----------



## Doug71

A builder brought me 6 redwood door casings to saw through to width last week, they needed about 10 mm off. He had got them from some builders merchant and were still in the plastic wrapping. When I opened them I could not believe how bad they were, almost every piece was bent, bowed, twisted cupped or cracked. I got him to come back and look at them before I cut them and he said they were fine, it was normal and he buys them there because they are better than other places.

Either his joiner is very skilled or very rough because I couldn't/wouldn't have fitted them.


----------



## ColeyS1

This arrived in the post this morning 




Could never compete with those prices.....short term anyway.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## Woody2Shoes

I make my own door linings out of redwood I've selected myself. I helped a friend install external doors in his house, made of "engineered" oak-veneered blockboard-type-stuff - I managed to stay silent on the quality of them the whole time - I've no idea how long they'll last.


----------



## Just4Fun

ColeyS1":39woe3p4 said:


> This arrived in the post this morning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could never compete with those prices.....short term anyway.


Those prices seem to have been drawn from a hat. Even ignoring the low price level and just comparing one with another, to me there seems to be little obvious correlation between the time & materials required to make each door and the price being charged.

Taking any of those Howden doors as an example, what would it cost to have a decent door and frame made "properly"?


----------



## johnnyb

Twisted and warped door frames are straightened up mostly when fixed by packing. No one pays for custom made doors or frames unless there's no option. Ie odd sizes. This is mass market stuff.most People are really not aware what a well fitted door is. As far as call backs go stability is the thing chipboard and veneer wins Everytime. 
Of course someone will want a custom door but they are few and far between and what if they want 10 more to match. 
I went to look at a job in an old terraced house the people that made the doors had specified 1inch thick doors! I'm guessing every house on that street was the same. Moneysaving old school style!


----------



## Craigclose1991

Only thing I like mdf for is its resistance to heat ie making a radiator cover out of it.


----------



## johnnyb

This weather has played havoc the the equilibrium moisture content of all par pine/ spruce. Most of it is as twisted as a corkscrew.


----------



## Benchwayze

custard":3ng9yn86 said:


> Here's some rubbish cabinet making to go with the rubbish joinery.
> 
> I spotted these chairs in a client's house, apparently they weren't cheap (and based on the other furniture in their house I doubt they shop at Oak Furniture Land), but look at how they're made. The back leg is built up from shorter Oak staves and then machined to shape.



Custard.

I'm confused here. Did you mean "you doubted they shop at Oakfurnitureland; or you "didn't doubt". I ask because most of my new furniture was bought from Oakfurnitureland, and it's all made from recycled off-cuts, jointed into usable boards. The made up boards are quite well-matched and the stuff is reasonably well made; (For the money). I spent a long time deciding on what I wanted, and of the ranges, I found the 'Original Rustic range was the best.) But it is all made from re-jointed laths and other off-cuts which would have been wasted if this style of furniture making had not been used. 

Yes I could make a better job of most of it, but at 79 years, my eyesight and strength aren't what they were, and I would have been tempted to just buy laminated pine boards for lightness, and used a domino to rely on machinery for accuracy. So I saved myself the trouble and bought ready made. By traditional standards the furniture is only just above the average but, by today's standards, for the mass market, quite good. I am happy with my new stuff, (Now I live alone) and I can work in my shop making smaller pieces for my own enjoyment! 

The Oakfurnitureland stuff is all machine jointed but at least it is jointed. 

Cons: the drawers are small, and don't fit very well. A lot of space is wasted inside because they don't use traditional drawer guides and runners. But as long as you remember to open drawers two handed, they don't wobble too much! 

The Rustic range is solidly built, pineappling heavy, and a real pig to get upstairs! 
It looks okay, and I am happy. The only problem was they delivered it much quicker than I asked; before the guy who was to decorate my bedroom turned up; and still hasn't! :? 

Regards John


----------



## johnnyb

In a house my brother rents out the tenant had a bedroom suite from ofl. The wardrobe was an enormous box. I had to take every door off and the bannister and it was still tight. They left it in the yard!. One console table was leaning 10degrees left. Anyway chap comes out and says nothing wrong with it. I hand him his coffee and gesture for him to place it on the table( on a brand new pale carpet) ok says he well replace!


----------



## doctor Bob

I love these types of thread which pop up from time to time.
Everybody jumps on the band wagon slagging it off.

Yet when someone posts up a hand made item which looks terrible, not a peep.................. I did it many years ago, crikey never again.


----------



## Benchwayze

doctor Bob":3906g1s9 said:


> I love these types of thread which pop up from time to time.
> Everybody jumps on the band wagon slagging it off.
> 
> Yet when someone posts up a hand made item which looks terrible, not a peep.................. I did it many years ago, crikey never again.



I'll have a look after breakfast Bob. See if I can find anything I can slag off! :lol:


----------



## doctor Bob

My comments were aimed at a box made for someones girlfriend, it looked like a 3 year old had made it. The complimentry comments were so sycophantic it was ridiculous, I told a few truths, went down like a lead ballooon. To be honest there is a lot of rubbish posted up here which gets drooled over. Yet a perfectly well made chair made from finger jointed material is the devils work.
I agree it's not my cup of tea, neither is a £30 door from howdens but everybody has a budget.

Is a laminated curve the devils work, or should it be from solid. Lot of people on here talk the talk but don't walk the walk....................


----------



## ColeyS1

No one's first piece of woodwork was spot on though doctor bob. My first piece I was told by a neighbour "it's functional but will look better with a table cloth" I was about 10 at the time and my parents comments were it was dung ! I listened to my neighbour who saw the positives. I still do woodwork and just this week found out joints don't really have to fit- mix up 2pac hard filler and spread them on the joints (wet obviously) and voila- scrape off the excess! A comment can provide encourage or put someone off for life.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## Benchwayze

I follow you Bob. However in my case I am a little 'senior' to need something really expensive. I will consider myself fortunate to get another ten years. I needed something that wasn't exactly dire, but which looked as if it would last me out, and looked reasonable. What I bought fits the bill. My pet hate is seeing pallet wood used to make 'character' pieces!!! I agree with recycling, but some of that stuff I woudn't use for a picket fence! 

John


----------



## ColeyS1

Just need to clarify, the hard filler comment was a joke lol- though I did see someone do it on site when they made a right hash up getting two pieces of moulding to fit.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## Armagh

In relation to the initial post. I'd have to start by saying that I don't think I've ever fitted a solid hardwood liner in my 16 year career so far. If aiming for an oak finish a rebated whitewood frame is installed. The frame is made up an inch wider than the door. A 45mm by 12.5mm solid oak slip is pinned into the rebate before the door is hung. A full width door stop then covers the rest of the frame and indeed this is made up of number smaller offcuts that are wrapped in a thin Oak veneer on three sides. You'll also get "solid oak" skirting made up in exactly the same manner. Hope that all makes sense.


----------



## doctor Bob

ColeyS1":3j4oejzg said:


> No one's first piece of woodwork was spot on though doctor bob.



Quite agree, this was not the chaps first bit of woodwork. I think he did it for a living in some form or other.


----------



## Jacob

Just4Fun":l6vi2u70 said:


> ....
> Taking any of those Howden doors as an example, what would it cost to have a decent door and frame made "properly"?


I'd guess 5 to 10 times as much for one off's, assuming a given design, no surveying required and you have the materials and all the right kit. If not then even more.
Less for a big run perhaps?
The thing about cheap stuff is it's really bloody cheap! Value for money is another issue.


----------



## ColeyS1

doctor Bob":mfnlvsph said:


> ColeyS1":mfnlvsph said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one's first piece of woodwork was spot on though doctor bob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite agree, this was not the chaps first bit of woodwork. I think he did it for a living in some form or other.
Click to expand...

Ah....I think I know who you mean now.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## ScaredyCat

doctor Bob":3m4j7f5n said:


> ColeyS1":3m4j7f5n said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one's first piece of woodwork was spot on though doctor bob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite agree, this was not the chaps first bit of woodwork. I think he did it for a living in some form or other.
Click to expand...


Presumably if he did it for a living, and hadn't starved to death, then people were buying it, which makes it acceptable to them. ie People buying aren't over critical woodworkers. 

OFL make a tidy sum from their stuff. Not everyone can afford had crafted stuff that costs a fortune to buy and not everyone can wait 3 months for the thing they need. I'm sure if everyone could afford, in price and time, master craftsman made furniture we'd have shops on every street doing it. They can't and we don't. 




.


----------



## doctor Bob

ScaredyCat":3rzxh2lj said:


> doctor Bob":3rzxh2lj said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ColeyS1":3rzxh2lj said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one's first piece of woodwork was spot on though doctor bob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite agree, this was not the chaps first bit of woodwork. I think he did it for a living in some form or other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Presumably if he did it for a living, and hadn't starved to death, then people were buying it, which makes it acceptable to them. ie People buying aren't over critical woodworkers.
> 
> OFL make a tidy sum from their stuff. Not everyone can afford had crafted stuff that costs a fortune to buy and not everyone can wait 3 months for the thing they need. I'm sure if everyone could afford, in price and time, master craftsman made furniture we'd have shops on every street doing it. They can't and we don't.
> .
Click to expand...


I think you have missed the whole point of my posts, I agree with everything you say. All I said was people seem very keen to slag of cheap end joinery but if someone posts up a bit of handmade tut on the forum no one is prepared to say it's shi.te


----------



## Lons

Howdens does have it's place.

My daughter a single girl, hardworking nurse has not a lot spare cash and her own house which is a little old 2 up 2 down. She wanted to replace the existing knackered flush hardboard doors and I haven't time to make from scratch so for the grand sum of £90 she has 6 pressed panel no nonsense doors - not yet fitted of course. #-o


----------



## Sheffield Tony

doctor Bob":y44b6i52 said:


> I think you have missed the whole point of my posts, I agree with everything you say. All I said was people seem very keen to slag of cheap end joinery but if someone posts up a bit of handmade tut on the forum no one is prepared to say it's shi.te



When anyone posts up a project on an internet forum, they ought to be prepared to receive some constructive criticism, query about their design choices etc. I am happy to take on board constructive criticism of my particular brand of "handmade tut".

But saying someones work is "shi.te" is not constructive , just unhelpful, demotivating and arrogant IMHO.

There is also a world of difference between criticising OFL's far east made basic commodity furniture, and criticising an individual forum contributor's best efforts. I assume it was their best efforts; I doubt they'd share it if they knew it was c**p.


----------



## doctor Bob

This is why I don't do it anymore.
I employ guys and take on apprentices most years, all have stayed with me at the end of the 3 year course. I know how to offer constructive critisism. I also know when a piece of work is appaulingly executed by someone who professes to have years of experience. I was prepared to tell them that at the time (not any more as mentioned). 
I do not feel I have an exaggerated sense of my own importance or abilities, quite the opposite, to be called arrogant upsets me, you know nothing about my background, you have no knowledge of what I've paid back to many many people, all because people were prepared to do the same for me many years ago. 
I'm entitled to my opinion, people don't like it at times and I stopped doing it, this was explained in my posts. I am still entitled to "think" some work is pretty poor, compared to mass produced stuff.


----------



## Jacob

I must say I tend to think that some of the aspirational 'high-end' stuff is not really as good as they think it is. :lol: They are playing a game of their own and it's a pity that many amateurs/beginners feel that they should to join it.
I'm in the middle ground here - I particularly like and admire "ordinary" stuff which is neither as cheap as possible nor over the top. 
Difficult to put a finger on it but most 'country' furniture fits (n.b. nothing country about it they made it mostly in and for towns). But they really went to town with tools of the trade - wagons, farm appliances etc often beautifully designed and made, practical and utilitarian but no compromises. Bit of a leap, and a different product, but Ikea is nearer the mark than Howdens. Maybe Ikea should make joinery?


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Maybe they should - they use 1% of the world's timber.


----------



## doctor Bob

Ikea is a typical retail outlet people turn their noses up at because "it's not made properly".
Yet it's functional, invariably stylish, often inovative and incredible value.
I don't see why this makes it rubbish. Disposable possibly but at £6 for a coffee table why not.


----------



## Jacob

doctor Bob":3ddoom46 said:


> Ikea is a typical retail outlet people turn their noses up at because "it's not made properly".
> Yet it's functional, invariably stylish, often inovative and incredible value.
> I don't see why this makes it rubbish. Disposable possibly but at £6 for a coffee table why not.


Some of the big names made cheap sh.te too, but got 'designer' prices. 
I found a Gordon Russel coffee table with the thin veneer lifting off the chipboard and scrapped it. It wasn't superior in any way to a typical Ikea equivalent.
I should have sold it on ebay as for restoration. I saved the stylish label and keep intending to make something to fix it to. Perhaps just swap the label on an Ikea thing and 10x the price at a stroke


----------



## Lons

doctor Bob":kp571e3q said:


> Ikea is a typical retail outlet people turn their noses up at because "it's not made properly".
> Yet it's functional, invariably stylish, often inovative and incredible value.
> I don't see why this makes it rubbish. Disposable possibly but at £6 for a coffee table why not.


And can't fault their way of getting footfall into the stores. Free coffee and a bacon bun for £1


----------



## Phil Pascoe

As the nearest Ikea to me is a 200 mile round trip they'll have to offer me more than a coffee.


----------



## marcros

phil.p":2uul6wc8 said:


> As the nearest Ikea to me is a 200 mile round trip they'll have to offer me more than a coffee.



the bacon bun for a quid. :mrgreen:


----------



## transatlantic

I often wish there was some minimal quality that all manufacturers have to meet. If it won't last 25 years with normal wear and tear, then it shouldn't be produced.

The amount of energy that goes into making/transporting and then the inevitable scrapping of materials in 5 years is depressing.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

Is that just for woodwork, or in general ? I don't think that would leave a lot of consumer electronics available !


----------



## Jacob

The war time utility standard was good. Stuff still around 70+ years later. Collectable in fact.
Actually some consumer electronics can be incredibly durable. 50 year old hoovers, valve radios etc. A lot of old hi-fi kit still around too.


----------



## doctor Bob

transatlantic":2pppqgkg said:


> I often wish there was some minimal quality that all manufacturers have to meet. If it won't last 25 years with normal wear and tear, then it shouldn't be produced.
> 
> The amount of energy that goes into making/transporting and then the inevitable scrapping of materials in 5 years is depressing.



That basically takes fashion and trends out of the equation of everything, which is ridiculous. For example if we took this forums members and eliminated fashion then everybody would be in tatty jeans hoicked up to their nipples, held up with a big thick belt or braces, 4" of darned sock on show and a pair of hobnail boots, topped off with an ill fitting t shirt from the 70's. Ok hang on this example isn't really working, I've been to a few open days and this is the formal dress code............


----------



## custard

transatlantic":1fxj3n57 said:


> I often wish there was some minimal quality that all manufacturers have to meet. If it won't last 25 years with normal wear and tear, then it shouldn't be produced.
> 
> The amount of energy that goes into making/transporting and then the inevitable scrapping of materials in 5 years is depressing.



Do you _value_ free markets and free choice more than you _detest_ waste, or visa versa? You're free to make that choice with your own purchases, but imposing those values on others through legislation is a big step to take. 

The only thing I can think of that might justify it is if buying crepe goods imposes hidden costs on other people. For example if the buyer of cheap tat got a price advantage, but someone else had to pick up the cost of landfill waste disposal?

So I get the argument when it comes to say outlawing certain non-recyclable plastics, but if someone wants to buy a rubbish sofa or a cheap as chips saw table then, as long as they've not been misled, I'd say that's their choice.


----------



## LancsRick

I actually embrace poor quality stuff being available, my issue is when it's disguised as something else. If I'm doing a job that only has to last as a stopgap solution then cheap is the order of the day. Ikea furniture (either standard or modified) is one of my favourites in that scenario.

What I have an issue with is when things are done poorly but people try to pass them off as adequate. I think some of the examples in this thread fall into that remit, but then again we have to decide what feature(s) it is that we're deeming low quality - there are times to judge on functionality, and there are times to judge on the level of skill and workmanship that go into them, but in some instances the lack of the latter doesn't mean a poor quality product.


----------



## Jacob

custard":2fvazgd5 said:


> transatlantic":2fvazgd5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I often wish there was some minimal quality that all manufacturers have to meet. If it won't last 25 years with normal wear and tear, then it shouldn't be produced.
> 
> The amount of energy that goes into making/transporting and then the inevitable scrapping of materials in 5 years is depressing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you _value_ free markets and free choice more than you _detest_ waste, or visa versa? You're free to make that choice with your own purchases, but imposing those values on others through legislation is a big step to take.
> .....
Click to expand...

It's a big step that has already been taken - there are all sorts of obligatory standards, for safety reasons mainly, but more is coming on line for environmental reasons - renewable resources, less energy etc.
It will only increase. Use less energy means producing more efficiently, or fewer goods. Something which lasts 10 years will consume half the materials and energy of something which has to be replaced at 5 years, a.o.t.b.e.
Utility furniture was often designed by the top names of the day and it showed.
nb "Free" markets don't really exist and never really did


----------



## transatlantic

doctor Bob":10f9pufx said:


> transatlantic":10f9pufx said:
> 
> 
> 
> I often wish there was some minimal quality that all manufacturers have to meet. If it won't last 25 years with normal wear and tear, then it shouldn't be produced.
> 
> The amount of energy that goes into making/transporting and then the inevitable scrapping of materials in 5 years is depressing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That basically takes fashion and trends out of the equation of everything, which is ridiculous. For example if we took this forums members and eliminated fashion then everybody would be in tatty jeans hoicked up to their nipples, held up with a big thick belt or braces, 4" of darned sock on show and a pair of hobnail boots, topped off with an ill fitting t shirt from the 70's. Ok hang on this example isn't really working, I've been to a few open days and this is the formal dress code............
Click to expand...


I was actually refering to the topic at hand, doors and fittings.... 

What's ridiculous is you jumping to clothing


----------



## doctor Bob

transatlantic":3os8jhwn said:


> doctor Bob":3os8jhwn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> transatlantic":3os8jhwn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I often wish there was some minimal quality that all manufacturers have to meet. If it won't last 25 years with normal wear and tear, then it shouldn't be produced.
> 
> The amount of energy that goes into making/transporting and then the inevitable scrapping of materials in 5 years is depressing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That basically takes fashion and trends out of the equation of everything, which is ridiculous. For example if we took this forums members and eliminated fashion then everybody would be in tatty jeans hoicked up to their nipples, held up with a big thick belt or braces, 4" of darned sock on show and a pair of hobnail boots, topped off with an ill fitting t shirt from the 70's. Ok hang on this example isn't really working, I've been to a few open days and this is the formal dress code............
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was actually refering to the topic at hand, doors and fittings....
> 
> What's ridiculous is you jumping to clothing
Click to expand...


Crikey this is a very difficult audience to try and do comedy to .............


----------



## Sgian Dubh

doctor Bob":1ztm010a said:


> Crikey this is a very difficult audience to try and do comedy to .............


Well, not everyone here is always hard to make chuckle. You've managed it for me recently in this thread and in the fancy dovetail thread to which we both contributed. I admit to having a bit of a soft spot for IKEA's products; certainly their business model and work methods (if that's the right term) I think of as a something of a wonder to behold. Their ability to satisfy the needs of customers economically, usually repeatedly I suspect, is really very clever. I can't say if it's all good or bad, but IKEA just seems to keeping rumbling on and growing bigger. Slainte.


----------



## D_W

Just4Fun":1cqsa08u said:


> ColeyS1":1cqsa08u said:
> 
> 
> 
> This arrived in the post this morning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could never compete with those prices.....short term anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Those prices seem to have been drawn from a hat. Even ignoring the low price level and just comparing one with another, to me there seems to be little obvious correlation between the time & materials required to make each door and the price being charged.
> 
> Taking any of those Howden doors as an example, what would it cost to have a decent door and frame made "properly"?
Click to expand...


Where are they made? We've got plenty of that kind of thing going on in the states - if the products go to higher end, it's referred to as prestige pricing (everything's actually cheap, but you differentiate price levels to target certain customers. That way, you get to keep the low end of the market as well as the mid to high end).

There are some very stupid examples of it, though, like cadillac selling a rebadged chevy volt (which is already expensive for what it is) for nearly double the price. And they did manage to sell a few, too. Essentially a plug in version of the GM econo platform (cruze) sold for $70k or a little more.


----------



## transatlantic

doctor Bob":ohrrdwe7 said:


> Crikey this is a very difficult audience to try and do comedy to .............



My bad


----------



## Benchwayze

Never mind Bob,

The only part of that description that isn't me is the socks! I can't wear them any more. Can't find any that don't cut into my diabetic legs! 

:? :? 

John


----------



## D_W

doctor Bob":31w7x4aw said:


> Ikea is a typical retail outlet people turn their noses up at because "it's not made properly".
> Yet it's functional, invariably stylish, often inovative and incredible value.
> I don't see why this makes it rubbish. Disposable possibly but at £6 for a coffee table why not.



100% agree. The options before ikea were other tape veneer particleboard furniture of even lower quality. Ikea serves a purpose - not everyone is enthusiastic about furniture or envisions giving it to their kids. 

From an economic standpoint, it makes more sense - buy the furniture, save the difference for retirement. You'll be FAR ahead (I have little of the stuff, but recognize It'd make more fiscal sense to have gone that direction than making some furniture and purchasing true locally made solid furniture for other items). The bent ply ikea items will probably outlast me. For damned sure, I could never have made a comfortable bent ply chair and upholstered it with leather for $180.


----------



## D_W

johnnyb":3jgmm8et said:


> This weather has played havoc the the equilibrium moisture content of all par pine/ spruce. Most of it is as twisted as a corkscrew.



If it would've been sawn properly, that wouldn't happen. I don't know how you get "sawn properly" on a regular basis, though. 

There's a ton of older pine trim here in the states that has fared very well other than for denting (it dents easily, of course). 

The standard now is probably MDF for where it would have been used. The shock to me is that MDF type products are becoming standard of spec homes for exterior use. Maybe I missed that and it's decades old practice, but MDF never resists expanding when moisture cycles are involved. FIL paid for a mid-rated builder (think 1 1/2 times per square foot of a typical corporate builder) and they used finger joint poplar for all of his sill work and MDF for all of the mouldings in his house. All painted. The wood around the window areas was an "upgrade" at that, too. In a decade, the finger joints will telegraph through the paint. I guess he can at least sand and paint them.


----------



## D_W

phil.p":xg6brugt said:


> As the nearest Ikea to me is a 200 mile round trip they'll have to offer me more than a coffee.



You can pick up a few skankas there...........





..I would've thought that was swedish for questionable women, but apparently it's cooking pots.


----------



## El Barto

custard":12uqeotj said:


> Here's some rubbish cabinet making to go with the rubbish joinery.
> 
> I spotted these chairs in a client's house, apparently they weren't cheap (and based on the other furniture in their house I doubt they shop at Oak Furniture Land), but look at how they're made. The back leg is built up from shorter Oak staves and then machined to shape.



That is gross. But very indicative of what people will accept. I imagine 99% of the people buying furniture like this (from Habitat, Heals et al) will not notice nor care that it was made that way. It's a shame, especially when you consider the prices these "higher end" places are charging...


----------



## Jacob

custard":3mbfogh5 said:


> Here's some rubbish cabinet making to go with the rubbish joinery.
> 
> I spotted these chairs in a client's house, apparently they weren't cheap (and based on the other furniture in their house I doubt they shop at Oak Furniture Land), but look at how they're made. The back leg is built up from shorter Oak staves and then machined to shape.



We've got an IKEA GJORA double bed 
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/bed ... -49129997/
Ingenious construction - not a single piece of wood in there longer than about 300mm. 
This dramatically reduces waste (imagine making it out of solid), ensures consistent and controlled timber quality and keeps the price down.
nb instead of headboard you drape a cloth over the top rail (decorative quilt, whatever) and lean back against the wall.
It works really well, can't knock it so far.
Building up from staves is inspired industrial design and manufacturing!


> ...people buying furniture like this (from Habitat, Heals et al) will not notice nor care that it was made that way...


Not me squire; am interested in and know clever design and construction when I see it, not to mention value for money! 
A traditionalist old chap whittling/wittering/tut-tutting in a shed might not approve though :roll: :lol:


----------



## El Barto

Jacob":2d8odvcj said:


> Not me squire; am interested in and know clever design and construction when I see it, not to mention value for money!
> A traditionalist old chap whittling/wittering/tut-tutting in a shed might not approve though :roll: :lol:



Hm nope not what I was getting at, I forgot how pedantic this place is. What I meant is that of the people I know who buy from Heals, Habitat et all, (who I imagine are fairly typical of the patrons of these kinds of stores) they probably aren't thinking about the clever construction methods employed and how x amount of material/waste was saved. I don't doubt that there's a fair amount of people such as yourself who DO take notice of that, but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority haven't noticed/don't care.

I have nothing against any of these places, by the way; I own plenty of Ikea and Habitat furniture. What would be really cool is if they talked more about their construction process and engaged the customer in the ways they minimise waste. That would be interesting...


----------



## Jacob

El Barto":ik1ip0k7 said:


> ......What would be really cool is if they talked more about their construction process and engaged the customer in the ways they minimise waste. That would be interesting...


I'd be interested to know how they do the made up timber stuff.
Presumably it's reduced small from green to get it dry as fast as poss and then machined up. Must save huge amount compared to solid wood e.g at one extreme - air dried occupying space for years whereas processed in and out in days.


----------



## Benchwayze

Looking at what I bought Jacob, it seems they buy usable off cuts, and joint them up. (In bulk of course.) They run it through wide sanders to thickness and then make up boards of suitable dimensions. (Just like kitchen worktops.) As woodworkers we would see it for what it is; but the layperson would just see it as 'the way it's made'; if they noticed it at all. 

I think this is good recycling, and it is grain-matched pretty well. Even though it's not virgin timber, they can claim it is solid wood; because by definition it is. As I said earlier the furniture isn't class. But it's robust, and it looks okay (The 'Original Rustic ' range does at least!) It suits my purposes, for a bedroom makeover! And it's not like it has to last me for donkey's ears! 

John


----------



## Phil Pascoe

As some wag said on the subject before - I expected my furniture to be made from pieces of prime oak, I just didn't expect it to be made from thousands of them. :lol:


----------



## Benchwayze

I did have 'prime' oak furniture. It was made in the 1940s, and was stamped with the 'utility' mark! It had a lot of plywood in it mind! 
I got rid of the last piece about three years ago because it was wormed. The tops and door frames which were (OK )I kept in my scrap pile. 

I do know what you mean Phil and I do like prime oak! But I used to buy that in rough sawn planks when I needed it! :wink: 

John


----------



## Sgian Dubh

D_W":38jtena5 said:


> johnnyb":38jtena5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This weather has played havoc the the equilibrium moisture content of all par pine/ spruce. Most of it is as twisted as a corkscrew.
> 
> 
> 
> If it would've been sawn properly, that wouldn't happen. I don't know how you get "sawn properly" on a regular basis, though.
Click to expand...

I'm struggling to understand what you're saying there David. What do you mean by "sawn properly" because as there are relatively limited methods for converting saw logs, i.e., tangential or radial cutting resulting in the different classifications of the resultant grain patterns on the wide faces of the board, i.e., tangential, radial aka 1/4 sawn, rift sawn and figured.

I suspect you're really alluding to what happens to a board after it's sawn out of the log, i.e., how it's seasoned and for what purpose it's seasoned. For example, most softwoods (not all) go to the construction industry and are dried in a kiln to a joinery grade target moisture content, i.e., ~20% MC ±2%. Furniture grade wood (mostly hardwoods but some softwoods) have a target MC of ~11% ±2% here in Europe (7% MC in North America). I'm omitting discussion of air drying in this response for simplicity.

So, in many respects it's not a great surprise that stuff intentionally dried to 20% MC has a tendency to distort upon subsequent additional drying, particularly if the stuff is just sitting around in a pile rather fixed to something that will tend to hold it relatively true and straight, e.g., as part of a stud wall. In addition contributory factors for distortion may be natural growing stresses coupled with kiln induced drying stresses that can sometimes take a while to reveal themselves as they respond to changing environmental circumstances. Slainte.


----------



## Sheffield Tony

Jacob":2aj67ogb said:


> I'd be interested to know how they do the made up timber stuff.
> Presumably it's reduced small from green to get it dry as fast as poss and then machined up. Must save huge amount compared to solid wood e.g at one extreme - air dried occupying space for years whereas processed in and out in days.



We have some oak furniture, bought from a local "garden centre" before OFL was well known, but of a very similar sort. I asked about where it came from. Imported from the far east, bought by the mixed container load. Made from reclaimed wood, which originated from Europe. Our stuff is not made from quite such small pieces, but presumably as the demand has grown and reclaimed timber has got harder to source, the bits get smaller. Colour and grain matching is not great, but I'm willing to accept it as character of a sort. The furniture was off the shelf and a lot cheaper and quicker than making my own "handmade tut" instead :wink: 

There was an episode of "How its Made" which showed the finger jointing of scraps of wood into long lengths, all automated from a hopper of bits, joined into a continuous length, fed past a saw to be cut to the required pieces. No human intervention to agonise over the best grain match, or placement of the finger joints.


----------



## D_W

Sgian Dubh":1dvakw9s said:


> D_W":1dvakw9s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> johnnyb":1dvakw9s said:
> 
> 
> 
> This weather has played havoc the the equilibrium moisture content of all par pine/ spruce. Most of it is as twisted as a corkscrew.
> 
> 
> 
> If it would've been sawn properly, that wouldn't happen. I don't know how you get "sawn properly" on a regular basis, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm struggling to understand what you're saying there David. What do you mean by "sawn properly" because as there are relatively limited methods for converting saw logs, i.e., tangential or radial cutting resulting in the different classifications of the resultant grain patterns on the wide faces of the board, i.e., tangential, radial aka 1/4 sawn, rift sawn and figured.
> 
> I suspect you're really alluding to what happens to a board after it's sawn out of the log, i.e., how it's seasoned and for what purpose it's seasoned. For example, most softwoods (not all) go to the construction industry and are dried in a kiln to a joinery grade target moisture content, i.e., ~20% MC ±2%. Furniture grade wood (mostly hardwoods but some softwoods) have a target MC of ~11% ±2% here in Europe (7% MC in North America). I'm omitting discussion of air drying in this response for simplicity.
> 
> So, in many respects it's not a great surprise that stuff intentionally dried to 20% MC has a tendency to distort upon subsequent additional drying, particularly if the stuff is just sitting around in a pile rather fixed to something that will tend to hold it relatively true and straight, e.g., as part of a stud wall. In addition contributory factors for distortion may be natural growing stresses coupled with kiln induced drying stresses that can sometimes take a while to reveal themselves as they respond to changing environmental circumstances. Slainte.
Click to expand...


It can be flatsawn or quartered, or fit, whatever you'd like, but the timber the boards is cut from can't be right on the stump, can't be full of tension and the sawing needs to be done with the pith centered (in two dimensions) relative to the cut itself. 

That doesn't help the dryness issue you mention, and certainly wood sawn as I describe can still cup. But it shouldn't bow or twist much because it's sawn straight down the tree and shouldn't have any significant runout. 

this is a bit of a pipe dream, especially for commodity grade stuff. However, in making planes, I saw two types of wood that have absolutely horrible behavior (american beech and apple that grows in the states) prove to be very stable over the years. But the beech, even if it's dead quartered, will have poor behavior if you cannot follow a straight line from one end to the other and not cross grain (i.e., if you see grain running diagonally but it looks quartered on the end, it will twist). 

It's a pipe dream because the market appears not to care, and you cannot stipulate any such cutting and get maximum feet out of a log. Even if it's flatsawn, it'll be necessary to concede some lumber at the fat end of the log, and that will never happen.


----------



## Sgian Dubh

D_W":38qj2n83 said:


> It can be flatsawn or quartered, or fit, whatever you'd like, but the timber the boards is cut from can't be right on the stump, can't be full of tension and the sawing needs to be done with the pith centered (in two dimensions) relative to the cut itself.
> 
> That doesn't help the dryness issue you mention, and certainly wood sawn as I describe can still cup. But it shouldn't bow or twist much because it's sawn straight down the tree and shouldn't have any significant runout.
> 
> this is a bit of a pipe dream, especially for commodity grade stuff.


I think you're right about the "pipe dream" aspect. Sawyers generally convert to maximise yield and there have to be compromises. Compromises are the result of a sawlog not generally being a cylinder but frequently more reminiscent of a somewhat deformed truncated cone, perhaps with what might be called an imperfect fustrum to match the rest of the imperfect geometrical form of a saw log. Frequently there are other lumps and bumps in a saw log to consider when the sawyer looks at it and tries to assess the best way to cut.

I guess that winning out a 'perfect' blank for planes might often best be achieved through riving or cleaving although many wood species don't rive easily, or at all successfully. But if it's achievable the splitting follows the longitudinal grain direction, whatever that may be, e.g., straight, spiralled, reversed, etc. Then reject all those blanks that show evidence of being something less than 'perfect', e.g., growth stresses, spiral grain, rippled grain, etc. After that, it would be a case of seasoning the resultant blank(s) and going through another culling session when the wood has dried to your target moisture content. Aside from that, I suspect you're correct that you can't easily employ someone to custom cut a log to your precise specifications unless you're willing to pay a hefty fee, and you just have to sort through whatever's available from your source. Or, do as you seem to be doing, sawing out your own blanks trying to get them as good as possible regarding grain orientation. Slainte.


----------



## D_W

I agree with everything you said (either paying the price for custom sawing from a good small sawyer, or finding a perfect log and riving it). 

There was one seller in the US here selling 16/4 beech actually sawn properly. It was $16 per board foot, which was surprising at first, but nice to use. 

I've been lucky enough to get one sawn log from a sawyer here who went out of business, and it made most of my kitchen cabinets. He thought the color was special, so he was very deliberate when he sawed it as I described (but has since retired), never found a buyer for it and sold it to me for cheap when he retired. the boards were, of course, irregularly shaped in order to follow the grain and there was some waste involved using it. It would never be commercially viable, but I'd pay 25% more for any joinery work anyone did in my house if they could arrive with wood like that. 

Standards are probably worse in the US than they are in the UK, though we do have a very large number of local sawyers to go with the commercial mills. Some will do good work (just not construction lumber type prices) on their own and stock upcharge lumber, and others will do whatever you want on a per-hour basis. A hobbyist can make it work. I wonder what the upper middle market architectural timber looked like 175 years ago.


----------



## doctor Bob

Off topic, but a quick question to our American friend above. We seem to be getting a few TV programs about log built houses over in the USA, I mean rustic looking but proper big houses. All logs inside and wooden kitchens and just wooden everything, varnish / polished evrything.
As an Englishman I find this style horrific, very difficult TV to watch, do Americans aspire to this finish / type of house or is it just a certain area of USA.
I hope I'm not insulting, indeed you may well think my house terrible.


----------



## D_W

There aren't many houses like that here, but you see them place to place. More common to see large buildings made like that that are commercial (lodges or other such places up in the mountains). If you go to ski somewhere in aspen and end up in a lodge like that, it's just part of the theme more or less. 

Fake log homes are also around, but the typical new home here is just stick and siding. They're cheaper to make, easier to insure, etc. When you get into higher dollars, then you'll see larger homes that are truly brick or stone, but none of those are going to be in the average home price range (plenty of older brick and stone homes, though). 

I think that it's popular for TV producers in other countries to pretend that half of the US is rednecks, which means that at any given time you could conclude:
* half the people are in trailers
* half the people are in log homes
* half live in tin sheds

etc. 

The reality of life in the states is that it's probably not that different than life in the UK. Maybe cheaper housing on average and slightly larger than the UK (more rooms, etc), but that varies a lot here, too. 

No logs or rednecky homes in most places, and anywhere that you'll find them, they might be 1 of 500 structures in a given area. 

I'm not offended by any of that, though. It's the magic of TV to do a poor job of portraying other countries - it's the mentality of a pro wrestling promoter - you draw views by exaggerating things.

I get a chuckle about all of the TV programs that show all americans as being fat, and you go to youtube comments and you'll find lots of english folks talking about "all you fat americans". (I see the july 2017 rate for obesity is 33.7% in the US and 28.1% in the UK). I saw a clip of a BBC program there that has fat people on it, and when they really want to "teach the fat UK person a lesson about what the future holds for them", they have them visit someone in the american south and imply that there's no truly obese people in the UK. The southern accent combined with obesity must really play well over there.

You go to an expensive area (truly expensive where, perhaps, the average home price is about $4MM - avalon new jersey comes to mind) and you won't see fat people. At that social status, I guess it's unacceptable and most of the folks are well kept. Certainly not a log home to be found anywhere there (but there is one at the edge of avalon made entirely of teak - and the build cost was a lot more than $4MM). I don't think you'll see that kind of thing on TV there, though, when they can find someone with deer antlers in their house somewhere in southern west virginia.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

* half the people are in trailers
* half the people are in log homes
* half live in tin sheds

Where do all the other halves of the people live?


----------



## D_W

Of course, that was on purpose. I could probably find 9 other things that "half" the people live in. 

They're called yogiism's in the states here, where someone tells you something that doesn't add up.

there are some stereotypes that are true, though. There's WAY too many people driving big cars long distances with one person in them. In my opinion there are WAY too many people eating at restaurants 4 times a week and taking to vacations a year and then complaining about debt (we generally do less "holiday" than UK and continental europe, though - people spend more of their money on "stuff" and places to put it).


----------



## johnnyb

I love dw s post. It sums up junk tv to perfection. Although Mississippi and louisiana can be difficult to find decent snap! The local fast food joints are bordering on inedible for me. I do find Americans love to eat in slightly downhome mom and pops that have great home cooked food though. Po boys in Nola spring to mind. BBQ joints to. Luvverly. 
I reckon American food is generally cheap and nasty. I'm thinking the 50 different hams at walmart. Also the nasty spreads claiming to be like butter in huge tubs.yuch!


----------



## johnnyb

Across the Pontchartrain bridge is the town of Mandeville a more middle class area you'd struggle to find. Nice restaurants beer halls joggers "historical" houses. Not many black people.some though.
My late father was slightly baffled by American racism as our small town was billeted by Americans during and after. Black and White were divided using pubs. Of course the locals were all white( even the colliers) but if a white gi decided to have a pint in the crown and cushion he was promptly arrested!
Baffling.( Even the mps were segregated) 
Jb


----------



## D_W

johnnyb":13e3mrc4 said:


> I love dw s post. It sums up junk tv to perfection. Although Mississippi and louisiana can be difficult to find decent snap! The local fast food joints are bordering on inedible for me. I do find Americans love to eat in slightly downhome mom and pops that have great home cooked food though. Po boys in Nola spring to mind. BBQ joints to. Luvverly.
> I reckon American food is generally cheap and nasty. I'm thinking the 50 different hams at walmart. Also the nasty spreads claiming to be like butter in huge tubs.yuch!



We've got the full range (of foods). You can have corn-based stuff at a dollar a pound for a lot of rubbish, or you can have (beyond) organic veggies and meat at $10 and $20 a pop. 

A lot of us like mom and pop stuff (restaurants) because everything is a chain. LA and mississippi are sort of their own things. What you get there is regional, and you'll probably not find it in most other places. I learned the hard way that everything is fried in peanut oil, and if you don't eat a lot of peanut oil, you'll be up three hours after you go to bed wondering if you have food poisoning while you sit on the toilet. It took me *two* nights to figure that out. 

Parts of the deep south can be unsafe (downtown baton rouge, Louisiana, and I'm sure parts of mississippi. It helps to know where it's not safe to go. If there was segregation in the military in WWII, it was probably because they couldn't separate the guys from the north and south (white guys). I'm glad that era is over ( to say in the least - in my opinion, they should've separated the southern whites from everyone else and made them sit by themselves). There's a lot more poo stirring about racism on TV than there actually is on the ground here - I guess the media isn't satisfied unless they're taking the low road. Too much reading of pro wrestling psychology (where the idea is to make people angry to get them to buy tickets, they're more likely to pay to see someone they hate getting beaten than to see someone they like beating someone up).


----------



## doctor Bob

I believe you get Downton Abbey in America, we English gents all live like that.
When we talk about making stuff, of course we don't make it, one instructs the Butler to tell the footman to tell the peasants to make it.


----------



## johnnyb

The north south thing makes sense and would have pleased him to have a reason why the objections to white and black mixing was only applied to troops. The gis stayed till at least 1947 as they helped clear the snow into huge piles after that bad winter.


----------



## D_W

doctor Bob":1bgmyab7 said:


> I believe you get Downton Abbey in America, we English gents all live like that.
> When we talk about making stuff, of course we don't make it, one instructs the Butler to tell the footman to tell the peasants to make it.



I haven't seen downton abbey, but I quite like Doc Martin. 

In the states, we figure that you're either royalty or soccer hooligans, with nothing in between. 

And lots of boiled meat and pork pies.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

I quite like Doc Martin, but I find the accents weird.


----------



## Jacob

D_W":28qz8edd said:


> doctor Bob":28qz8edd said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you get Downton Abbey in America, we English gents all live like that.
> When we talk about making stuff, of course we don't make it, one instructs the Butler to tell the footman to tell the peasants to make it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen downton abbey, but I quite like Doc Martin.
> 
> In the states, we figure that you're either royalty or soccer hooligans, with nothing in between.
> 
> And lots of boiled meat and pork pies.
Click to expand...

Right about the pork pies.


----------



## MikeG.

Just thought I'd look into this thread to see some rubbish joinery. How far back do I have to look?


----------



## dzj

I remember Clunes from Men Behaving Badly and the thought of Gary as an MD was quite funny.


----------



## Phil Pascoe

MikeG.":3cvet2de said:


> Just thought I'd look into this thread to see some rubbish joinery ...



You should know better by now. :lol:


----------



## D_W

johnnyb":8zur4srt said:


> Across the Pontchartrain bridge is the town of Mandeville a more middle class area you'd struggle to find. Nice restaurants beer halls joggers "historical" houses. Not many black people.some though.
> My late father was slightly baffled by American racism as our small town was billeted by Americans during and after. Black and White were divided using pubs. Of course the locals were all white( even the colliers) but if a white gi decided to have a pint in the crown and cushion he was promptly arrested!
> Baffling.( Even the mps were segregated)
> Jb



I have to chuckle about this post reading it again, as anywhere around Pontchartrain is pretty far afield for someone from the UK!

How'd you like the heat there?


----------



## johnnyb

The best thing about New Orleans is the Newcastle brown! It's quite popular and I reckon it's a fair bit more potent than the home grown.


----------



## Benchwayze

D_W":1m5b8n6q said:


> doctor Bob":1m5b8n6q said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you get Downton Abbey in America, we English gents all live like that.
> When we talk about making stuff, of course we don't make it, one instructs the Butler to tell the footman to tell the peasants to make it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen downton abbey, but I quite like Doc Martin.
> 
> In the states, we figure that you're either royalty or soccer hooligans, with nothing in between.
> 
> And lots of boiled meat and pork pies.
Click to expand...


DW

I think I must be nothing in between then! :lol: 
I just bought the first seven series of Doc Martin. I lost track of that series when my wife became ill. So, as I admire Martin Clunes's work, and like him, I also love dogs, I treated myself! 

I make my own pork pies, But I have yet to master hand-raising them. The only meat I boil is a gammon slipper (Midlands slang!) Great with cheese and pickle! 

John


----------



## Jacob

Benchwayze":f5ye5lar said:


> [....
> I make my own pork pies, But I have yet to master hand-raising them. ...


Would that involve bottle feeding?


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Benchwayze":1giylp1k said:


> I make my own pork pies, But I have yet to master hand-raising them. The only meat I boil is a gammon slipper (Midlands slang!) Great with cheese and pickle!
> 
> John


We buy gammon slippers a few hundred miles from you. My friend was a pub landlord and a brilliant baker (he used to bake 280 pasties at a time) - he used to make huge hot water pastry pork pies, but had it sent back regularly with the complaint that there must be something wrong with it as it wasn't pink.


----------



## Eric The Viking

phil.p":8keif2al said:


> I quite like Doc Martin, but I find the accents weird.


That's "Mummerset", beloved of poor actors everywhere. 

You'll just have to use the subtitles, like the rest of us.

The Archers is by far the worst though: two brothers, born, brought up and living in the same village have quite different regional accents - one slightly West of England/Gloucestershire, the other Norfolk!

For our tranastlantic cousins: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Archers


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Yes, Mummerset is a perceived West Country accent - one problem there is the number of different West Country accents, the other is that the West Country is thought to begin somewhere like Swindon. :lol: When I was a very child my mother told me it quite easy to tell the different accents of elderly people from Falmouth and Penryn ...... three miles apart. I have in the past spoken to people from about twenty miles down the road (nearly off the end  ) whom I have had great difficulty understanding despite having spent my life here. My own accent varies according to whom I am speaking (and probably the amount of alcohol consumed). I have been know to lapse into the vernacular.


----------



## Benchwayze

Jacob":2zwf77uw said:


> Benchwayze":2zwf77uw said:
> 
> 
> 
> [....
> I make my own pork pies, But I have yet to master hand-raising them. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Would that involve bottle feeding?
Click to expand...


Hi Jacob; 





Such a comeback was anticipated, and I almost decided not to use the expression. :mrgreen: But yes; forming the crust does involve gentle treatment and a certain amount of coddling and petting! 

Not really work for most woodworkers' hands! 

Cheers


----------



## Benchwayze

phil.p":1x856rwn said:


> Benchwayze":1x856rwn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I make my own pork pies, But I have yet to master hand-raising them. The only meat I boil is a gammon slipper (Midlands slang!) Great with cheese and pickle!
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We buy gammon slippers a few hundred miles from you. My friend was a pub landlord and a brilliant baker (he used to bake 280 pasties at a time) - he used to make huge hot water pastry pork pies, but had it sent back regularly with the complaint that there must be something wrong with it as it wasn't pink.
Click to expand...


Few treats more tasty than a fresh, hot pork pie, soft and still dripping! Such as I have whenever I go to Skipton! I always want another one immediately, but I don't like to be thought of as a glutton!!! 
Actually Phil, the last gammon slipper I did; I steamed as opposed to boiled. I ate it with mash, peas, and parsley sauce. Delish! 


John


----------



## Phil Pascoe

Much as I like pork and much as I like pies I don't like pork pies. :?


----------



## Benchwayze

A close friend of mine just won't eat any kind of pie. He calls them 'sealed secrets'; i.e we never know what horrors we might find inside. 
In fact I did once find a staple inside a well-known make of half-time steak pie! :shock:


----------



## Jacob

Benchwayze":17518qw8 said:


> A close friend of mine just won't eat any kind of pie. He calls them 'sealed secrets'; i.e we never know what horrors we might find inside.
> In fact I did once find a staple inside a well-known make of half-time steak pie! :shock:


UK's staple diet?


----------



## Benchwayze

Jacob;

If you were a trout, you'd never live to be a two-pounder! :lol: 
Cheers


----------



## D_W

Benchwayze":2vo6mj0s said:


> D_W":2vo6mj0s said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> doctor Bob":2vo6mj0s said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you get Downton Abbey in America, we English gents all live like that.
> When we talk about making stuff, of course we don't make it, one instructs the Butler to tell the footman to tell the peasants to make it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen downton abbey, but I quite like Doc Martin.
> 
> In the states, we figure that you're either royalty or soccer hooligans, with nothing in between.
> 
> And lots of boiled meat and pork pies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> DW
> 
> I think I must be nothing in between then! :lol:
> I just bought the first seven series of Doc Martin. I lost track of that series when my wife became ill. So, as I admire Martin Clunes's work, and like him, I also love dogs, I treated myself!
> 
> I make my own pork pies, But I have yet to master hand-raising them. The only meat I boil is a gammon slipper (Midlands slang!) Great with cheese and pickle!
> 
> John
Click to expand...


Pork pies are one of those things that you mention in the US and everyone thinks they must be a name for something else (as in, surely, there can't be a "snack pie" that has meat in it). 

We have Cow Tails here, but they are just candy (caramel and sugar). There's probably others. 

Savory foods are in the minority in the US given our affection for extreme amounts of sugar. A scottish friend who comes here from time to time is surprised by three things:
* our local scottish bar has more scotch varieties at any given time than he's able to get anywhere that he's been in Scotland or London (he loves that the ladies at that bar flock to him - a "real" one in a scottish bar them. "talk like shrek...talk like shrek!!"...well, he doesn't love that last request). 
* he's never seen a gun anywhere but TV when he's been here (I think he thought it would look like a western movie or something from hollywood - "let's settle this with a duel")
* and his common line "god ____...isn't there any savory food on any of the menus here?" (nope...sugar, or sugar plus, or sugar plus plus with chocolate syrup on top....unless you just want meat with eggs, bacon and cheese on the top). 

As to doc martin, I love the one line he had when his relationship was on the rocks in one of the mid seasons ..."why does everyone need to be happy?"


----------



## Jacob

Picture of a classy looking pork pie for D_W in case he hasn't seen one. That's probably onion pickle to the left. Looks very tasty I might just have to pop out and purchase one now.


----------



## D_W

That is a strange heart-stopping combination.

I like both, but we generally stick to warm chicken soup with a potato-based sauce in something like that ("pot pie"). 

that meat would be called bologna here if it is of the smoked and partially cooked variety (regional types in different places - "lebanon" bologna would have that look). the light colored bologna that has been ground into a puree is to be avoided.


----------



## Benchwayze

There is no genuine scientific evidence that saturated fat is bad for the heart. There's a huge case to be answered for with sugar and starch however! 

Laugh if you like, but I have lost five stones since October last, after going high fat-low carb. 8)

I do treat myself to the occasional pork pie, pastry and all!


----------



## Phil Pascoe

My friend, a GP, told me ten years ago that the medical profession weren prioritising the wrong thing - it's the amount of sugar in our diets that's doing the damage, not the fat.


----------



## Benchwayze

The worst part of Low Carb is going without bread. I do love a bacon sandwich! But if I want to lose the weight, summat has to go! :mrgreen: 
Still have a few stones to go... 

John


----------



## Jacob

Benchwayze":9s1vqo8t said:


> The worst part of Low Carb is going without bread. I do love a bacon sandwich! But if I want to lose the weight, summat has to go! :mrgreen:
> Still have a few stones to go...
> 
> John


Zero sugar, much less alcohol and half sized portions. Sweet things as a rare treat.
You can eat almost anything then including bread, bacon sandwiches (either small ones, or go without something else). 
We have fish n chips now and then but one portion shared between us does it.
I don't miss anything except the alcohol. Food tastes the same if not better, just less of it.


----------



## lurker

Jacob":2dbn0n3d said:


> Picture of a classy looking pork pie for D_W in case he hasn't seen one. That's probably onion pickle to the left. Looks very tasty I might just have to pop out and purchase one now.



Jacob, being born and spending the first 20 years of my life in Melton Mowbray, I can tell you, that object is not a real pork pie. Far too pink !


----------



## Phil Pascoe

lurker":1whzk9q2 said:


> Jacob, being born and spending the first 20 years of my life in Melton Mowbray, I can tell you, that object is not a real pork pie. Far too pink !



My friend was a pub landlord who baked beauties, he used to have them sent back regularly because there was something wrong with them - they weren't pink.


----------



## Jacob

lurker":2appk6cv said:


> Jacob":2appk6cv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Picture of a classy looking pork pie for D_W in case he hasn't seen one. That's probably onion pickle to the left. Looks very tasty I might just have to pop out and purchase one now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob, being born and spending the first 20 years of my life in Melton Mowbray, I can tell you, that object is not a real pork pie. Far too pink !
Click to expand...

Yes a bit on the pinkish side but I've seen pinker.


----------



## Benchwayze

Hmm! I believe you're in a nice part of the Uk Jacob. Never tasted your local chips! Must take a trip sometime. Have a look t'mills!

Cheers

John


----------



## Benchwayze

Jacob":3k3166im said:


> lurker":3k3166im said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob":3k3166im said:
> 
> 
> 
> Picture of a classy looking pork pie for D_W in case he hasn't seen one. That's probably onion pickle to the left. Looks very tasty I might just have to pop out and purchase one now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob, being born and spending the first 20 years of my life in Melton Mowbray, I can tell you, that object is not a real pork pie. Far too pink !
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes a bit on the pinkish side but I've seen pinker.
Click to expand...


It's only cochineal! Crushed beetle exoskeleton colouring! :mrgreen: 

I prefer the 'eyepiece' meat. It sees me through the week! Sorry; couldn't resist! 


Cheers

John


----------



## fiveeyes

from rubbish joinery to rubbish meat...where else can someone be so entertained and bewildered at the same time...simply amazing..love it!!
carry on.......


----------



## Benchwayze

Just reading a list of usernames is often amusing; and I thought eyes was spelled eyez! Lol!

John


----------



## LBCarpentry

On the occasions I have to purchase off the shelf external doors (XL joinery etc) I usually get offered "doweled or M&T?". I always go for the M&T on the basis that the joints will be far stronger. The latest door I purchased had to have a stile removed and adjusted in some way a pipper me, I got the stile off and the M&T joint was purely a visual trick of the mind! it was doweled but made to look like a M&T joint on the outside! unbelievable!!


----------



## Doug71

LBCarpentry":1g519si7 said:


> On the occasions I have to purchase off the shelf external doors (XL joinery etc) I usually get offered "doweled or M&T?". I always go for the M&T on the basis that the joints will be far stronger. The latest door I purchased had to have a stile removed and adjusted in some way a pipper me, I got the stile off and the M&T joint was purely a visual trick of the mind! it was doweled but made to look like a M&T joint on the outside! unbelievable!!



That's interesting to know. I supplied 8 external oak doors (XL Joinery) to a customer about four years ago for some barns they were converting in to holiday lets. I went back to do some more work a while ago and almost every door has come apart at the joints or the veneer has lifted. As the title of this thread says "rubbish joinery".


----------

