# Sharpening: 1000 vs 16000 grit.



## Ed Bray (20 Dec 2014)

New video by Rob Cosman on sharpening and the end result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWX2ursXfqw


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

I wouldn't watch it too closely - Cosman is into "difficult" sharpening in a big way. Better off with Sellers. Keep it simple.


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## MIGNAL (20 Dec 2014)

Crikey, I'm behind the times. My stones only go up to 8,000G. 
I'll save mi pennies and buy a 16,000. By the time I saved enuff they might be up to 24,000. Then 16,000 will be considered ruff. Still, I got off cheap. I've only spent 780 quid on sharpening media in the last 10 years.


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## Corneel (20 Dec 2014)

Actually, as he presents his sharpening method in this video, it isn't overly complex. I don't use the ruler trick, because I don't think it is neccessary and only adds another doodad, but further I sharpen exactly the same. Raise a burr on a medium coarse stone, then raise the angle a little further and reduce the burr on a fine stone, flip the blade over and completely remove the burr on that fine stone. I would even go a little further and go back and forth a few times with less pressure between the bevel and the face of the blade to remove the last traces of the burr. That's a very traditional sharpening method.

There is one thing in this video where I have my doubts. Did he really remove the burr on that 1K diamond plate? Didn't he just flip it over to the other side? If remnants of the burr are still there, it is no wonder he sees tracks in the wood. Especially with A2 steel which forms a tenacious burr.

But it is true that a 1000 grit edge isn't the pinnacle of sharpness. No doubt about that.


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## JohnPW (20 Dec 2014)

Wouldn't stropping (Autosol on MDF) achieve the same result as the 16,000 stone?


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## MIGNAL (20 Dec 2014)

Probably but Cosman sells the 16,000G and the 1,000G and the Honerite as well. They are absolutely useless sat unsold on the shelf. They don't do these videos for the good of their health. . .


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## MIGNAL (20 Dec 2014)

Corneel":1ge6abc1 said:


> But it is true that a 1000 grit edge isn't the pinnacle of sharpness. No doubt about that.



True but it's about being 'good enough' and 1,000G gets you there a large percentage of the time. I have an 8,000G waterstone so I use it (+stropping) when I really do require a very fine edge, which really isn't all that often. One day I'll try the 1,000G followed by stropping (I don't have a 1,000G stone) but I know a very good woodworker who uses nothing but that combination.


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## JohnPW (20 Dec 2014)

MIGNAL":1636od67 said:


> Probably but Cosman sells the 16,000G and the 1,000G and the Honerite as well. They are absolutely useless sat unsold on the shelf. They don't do these videos for the good of their health. . .



Well, if it's not advertising the products they sell, it's courses they run.


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

Honerite is a completely insane rip off.
These media circus clowns are best avoided like the plague.


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## bugbear (20 Dec 2014)

JohnPW":1goyijc4 said:


> Wouldn't stropping (Autosol on MDF) achieve the same result as the 16,000 stone?



The Shapton 16000 is 0.92 micron according to their website.

http://www.shapton.com/#!glassstone/c1fsz

There are certainly stropping compounds finer than 0.92 micron, but I don't know if Autosol is one of them.

BugBear


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## Peter Sefton (20 Dec 2014)

Has any one got much experience of using the Shapton stones? If so how have you got on with them?

One of my past students has some after seeing Rob using them, we have access to them and I have thought about putting them on the website but would like to hear from long time users for their opinions.

Cheers Peter


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## David C (20 Dec 2014)

Peter,
I have used the glass stones quite a bit and am not particularly fond of them.

Beware the diamond flattening stone. Mine is close to wearing out despite having been treated extremely carefully. 

They cut well enough but load up very quickly.

I have a 1500 pro stone which I like a lot for final polish.

BTW I was extremely satisfied, for many years, with the performance of King 8,000 grit polishing stones and see no need to go further.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## Ed Bray (20 Dec 2014)

I've got the 16000 ceramic/glass but I have only had it a few weeks, it seems to do the job okay but as it cost £100 I tend to keep it just for my plane irons, my chisels get done on a 3000/8000 smaller stone.


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## David C (20 Dec 2014)

I think the speed of Rob's sharpening is remarkable. It reflects an understanding of what is needed to produce an extremely sharp edge, in minimum time.

Personally I would prefer to use an Eclipse type jig, which takes very little extra time, but ensures precision, particularly for beginners.

Corneel would not have to "go back and forth" to remove his wire edge, if the edge of the back was contacting the stone properly, (and it were fine enough). Ruler trick ensures this. That is its greatest merit.

I'm afraid the naysayers have no viable case.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

MIGNAL":yozp9czq said:


> Crikey, I'm behind the times. My stones only go up to 8,000G.
> I'll save mi pennies and buy a 16,000. By the time I saved enuff they might be up to 24,000. Then 16,000 will be considered ruff. Still, I got off cheap. I've only spent 780 quid on sharpening media in the last 10 years.


I've spent about £100 in 50 years. Praps £150. Not counting oil or belts. Perhaps a realistic maximum of £300. Plus a Sorby Pro edge.
All the expensive stuff talked about on here is for sharpening enthusiasts - not mere woodworkers. Nobody needed it in the past and they don't now.
NB the "ruler" trick i.e. a small face bevel as a quick way of getting and edge on a plane blade, is as old as the hills and is easier without the ruler - you just lift the blade a touch as necessary. Usually just a matter of pressure rather than an actual lift - so little you'd hardly notice it. All plane blades have always done this way otherwise you'd have to flatten the whole face everytime. Chisel blades too - which is why they all end up after many years use with a slightly convex face


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## David C (20 Dec 2014)

Ah, no wonder so many old blades are in such terrible condition.

I'm so sorry its all too difficult for you. 

And no one has ever suggested the ruler trick for all normal blade sharpening before, as you very well know!

David


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## Newbie_Neil (20 Dec 2014)

Jacob":3q3bgsfk said:


> Better off with Sellers. Keep it simple.



+ 1. Paul Sellers is excellent and shows you how to do it freehand, something that I never thought I would attempt.


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

David C":35x9zxg4 said:


> Ah, no wonder so many old blades are in such terrible condition.


Yes all those millions of old woodworkers who knew nothing about sharpening


> ....
> And no one has ever suggested the ruler trick for all normal blade sharpening before, as you very well know!
> 
> David


Because the same thing has always been done much more easily without the ruler.


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## David C (20 Dec 2014)

Rob Cosman is doing it freehand, and a good deal faster than Paul Sellers.

Though there is nothing wrong with Sellers or even Jacob's method. Its just a shame he can't stop being rude about other methods.

David


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## Corneel (20 Dec 2014)

Newbie_Neil":3k2k49o2 said:


> + 1. Paul Sellers is excellent and shows you how to do it freehand, something that I never thought I would attempt.



You did know that Cosman teaches freehand too, didn't you?

Personally, I recently switched to oilstones. I got a nice Washita and a very good Arkansas stone now. It wasn't utterly cheap, but all together something like 120 euro. There is a learning curve, because they work quite different compared to waterstones. The burr is more of an issue with these and I am still trying to find the best way to remove it cleanly. On my waterstones I couldn't really detect the burr after the 8000 stone anymore. The oilstones have some great features. They are hard, don't dish or gouge quickly and the natural ones don't soak up the oil like an India stone does.

Waterstones don't need to be expensive either, but a diamond plate to keep them flat is nice to have. And these diamond plates indeed wear out over time.

Oh well, it's all a compromise anyway.


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## CStanford (20 Dec 2014)

The end result of the ruler trick, additional polishing and refinement right at the cutting edge on the flat side, is the natural outcome of stropping on flexible media like leather, even some 'hard' rubbers give enough to produced the same effect. No lift is needed on one's finest stone. If one does feel a little lift is necessary then do it on a firm strop charged with a very fine powder. A few passes is plenty. There is no need to produce a bevel on the flat side at one's fine stone. The desired effect is achieved well before that much metal is abraded and this includes even the finest of back-bevels.

Honing past the so-called 'wear bevel' (fancy name for dull-ness) should be done only from the beveled side of the iron.

Once the flat side of a cutter is flattened and polished it needs no further work other than regular backing off and stropping. If the strop is flexible at all then fine polishing takes place all the way to the cutting edge when both sides are worked.


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

David C":1b69w9xa said:


> Rob Cosman is doing it freehand, and a good deal faster than Paul Sellers.
> 
> Though there is nothing wrong with Sellers or even Jacob's method. Its just a shame he can't stop being rude about other methods.
> 
> David


It's the cost, with very marginal benefits. 
I posted up a rough estimate of my lifetimes costs earlier. Actually most of that (£300ish plus Sorby Proedge) was incurred in the last few years. I've been bitten by the crazy sharpening bug without hardly realising it!! 
Prior to that I managed with one new and two or three second hand oil stones. Total cost at today's prices about £40. Actual cost about £5.


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## lurcher (20 Dec 2014)

bench grinder 6" cotton mop and jewlers rouge will give you the best edge you could ever want people spend more time and money on sharppening pap instead of doing some woodwork it makes me smile when i read all this 1000 gt is fine enough for 80% of work .
and how come they can never invent some file that gives you a sharp saw tooth like no other 
are we going to invent 1please make my job alot more easy


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

lurcher":5s8zx3e0 said:


> bench grinder 6" cotton mop and jewlers rouge will give you the best edge you could ever want people spend more time and money on sharppening pap instead of doing some woodwork it makes me smile when i read all this 1000 gt is fine enough for 80% of work .
> and how come they can never invent some file that gives you a sharp saw tooth like no other
> are we going to invent 1please make my job alot more easy


Or ply disc on a lathe, with autosol. Slow speed - brilliantly sharp, and gouges done on the rounded edge. Can't be bettered! Costs FA if you have a lathe or anything with a faceplate.


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## Corneel (20 Dec 2014)

Costs, that's a good one. How much did I invest in the last 8 years or so in sharpening stuff? If I didn't forget anything, and I don;t remember all prices exactly.

Second hand Cruessen grinder, 25 euro.
Norton 3X wheel, 30 euro
Diamond dresser, 10 euro
So, for grinding something like 65 euro.

Waterstones:
400 grit Bester, 50 euro
1000 grit Sigma, 30 euro
4000 grit Bester, 55 euro
8000 grit Naniwa, 65 euro

That's 200 euro.

Then the oilstones.
Washita 2nd hand 40 euro
Arkansas 2nd hand 80 euro
Leather for free.
Makes 120 euro

Diamond plates.
DMT coarse/xcoarse 100 euro

Silicon grit, 5 euro.

All together, 65 + 200 + 120 + 100 + 5 = about 500 euro, makes 390 pounds.


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## lurcher (20 Dec 2014)

what are you chasing you should open a shop with all that lot man .
3 diamond plates 
1 wooden block with leather on it as a strop 
you need a shed to keep all that in mate


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## MIGNAL (20 Dec 2014)

I lied. 

8,000G King Waterstone.
Hand crank + guide + Red replacement wheel. 
Double sided diamond stone. - cheap. 
Green stropping paste.

Around 200 pound. I have a medium grit waterstone, 3 Oil stones and a fine Arkansas. Only 2 of the Oil stones and the arkansas were bought by myself but more than 25 years ago, so I've not included the cost of those. The others I'm storing for a friend.


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

Diamond plates? Luxury!! When ar worra lad we ad nowt but t'oilstone (if we wor lucky!). Woodwok wer no woss fer it neither. Tell that t't'youth of terday!
Actually quite true.


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## iNewbie (20 Dec 2014)

Jacob":1xswp6g7 said:


> David C":1xswp6g7 said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Cosman is doing it freehand, and a good deal faster than Paul Sellers.
> ...



Nobody needed a Sorby PE in the old days - if you dont know how to do it.... :mrgreen:


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## G S Haydon (20 Dec 2014)

t'oilstones! bye 'eck lad you ad it good! We only 'ad t' neighbours door step (no house of our own) and we were grateful for that! What the bloomin 'ecks a Diamond plate. Summit a queen eats pie and mash off? (not sure if a Devon lad is the best to try "northern" but I gave it a shot )


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## G S Haydon (20 Dec 2014)

I'll be interested to see how you feel about the oil stones Corneel, are they hollow? (hammer) (its all relative) :lol:


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## Corneel (20 Dec 2014)

lurcher":1u3qxtxj said:


> what are you chasing you should open a shop with all that lot man .
> 3 diamond plates
> 1 wooden block with leather on it as a strop
> you need a shed to keep all that in mate



3 diamond plates, that easilly adds up to 150 pound, and then you only have small ones of 150 mm length. So, your method costs real money too. And a grinder is a very usefull tool in a workshop for all kinds of jobs. 

Maybe I shouldn't have done the waterstones. But such is life, live and learn. And when you're dead you can't take your money with you anyway.

All these methods cost about the same in the end. Diamonds, waterstones, oilstones. When you want a decent finish stone at least. I think oilstones are the cheapest.


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## Corneel (20 Dec 2014)

G S Haydon":5d3c4dfg said:


> I'll be interested to see how you feel about the oil stones Corneel, are they hollow? (hammer) (its all relative) :lol:



The Arkansas is remarkably flat. The Washita has a weird wear pattern on one side, no idea what kind of tools were used. It has a "channel" running diagonally over the stone. The other side is plenty flat enough for me.


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## Cheshirechappie (20 Dec 2014)

G S Haydon":6fvdcb40 said:


> t'oilstones! bye 'eck lad you ad it good! We only 'ad t' neighbours door step (no house of our own) and we were grateful for that! What the bloomin 'ecks a Diamond plate. Summit a queen eats pie and mash off? (not sure if a Devon lad is the best to try "northern" but I gave it a shot )



I thought you Devon lads ran up Dartmoor and rubbed your tools on a Tor (in the old days that is - probably get arrested for doing that these days).

As for doorsteps - you were lucky! All we've got in Cheshire is clay, so we 'ad to bake us own bricks to rub us tools on. It was that or rub us tools on Chester city walls - probably get arrested for that these days, an' all!


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## G S Haydon (20 Dec 2014)

CC, the rumours of me rubbing my tool on a famous landmark are completely false..............

Nice find Corneel, I keep a look out for an Arkansas like yours but struggle to find 'em. I found what I think is a Charnley at a vintage fair this year for 99p (yes I passed the "you're not allowed to spend much money test") but have yet to give it a home and try it properly. It's pretty flat


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## bugbear (20 Dec 2014)

G S Haydon":1c0if66b said:


> CC, the rumours of me rubbing my tool on a famous landmark are completely false..............
> 
> Nice find Corneel, I keep a look out for an Arkansas like yours but struggle to find 'em. I found what I think is a Charnley at a vintage fair this year for 99p (yes I passed the "you're not allowed to spend much money test") but have yet to give it a home and try it properly. It's pretty flat



I have a real soft spot (and quite an accumulation) of these lovely old stones that haven't been cut fully square on all sides. Some of them
have only 1 flat surface, the upper one.

BugBear


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## bugbear (20 Dec 2014)

Jacob":1uwd9qb9 said:


> Diamond plates? Luxury!! When ar worra lad we ad nowt but t'oilstone (if we wor lucky!). Woodwok wer no woss fer it neither. Tell that t't'youth of terday!
> Actually quite true.



I thought you used a diamond abrasive Diapad to "freshen" your famous india stone. Pricy.

BugBear


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

No it was free. From another job. 
Other things will do - e.g. a bit of a scrub with a coarse wirewool or a steel pan scrubber every now and then. But 3m Diapads are ideal and not expensive - £5 or so on ebay


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## matthewwh (20 Dec 2014)

CStanford":3l8g9s47 said:


> Once the flat side of a cutter is flattened and polished it needs no further work other than regular backing off and stropping. If the strop is flexible at all then fine polishing takes place all the way to the cutting edge when both sides are worked.



Once the flat side of the cutter is flattened and polished, the time spent flattening and polishing it has already been wasted - that's the point! 

I'm sorry to press you on this Charles - it's nothing personal. I agree entirely about the beneficial effects of a slightly deformable strop, it just frustrates and fascinates me that a straightforward, all upside, no downside, genuinely useful idea like the ruler trick meets anything other than instant universal adoption.

I have yet to speak to anyone who has a single valid argument against it. 

"Once I've wasted half an hour I can get the same effect as I could have achieved in less than a minute" still doesn't cut it for me.


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

matthewwh":3bv55bt2 said:


> ..... it just frustrates and fascinates me that a straightforward, all upside, no downside, genuinely useful idea like the ruler trick meets anything other than instant universal adoption.
> 
> I have yet to speak to anyone who has a single valid argument against it......


The ruler is redundant. The without a ruler trick is done routinely by millions of people. Done better in fact, at lower angles and with less fiddling about. Most people do it without giving it a thought i.e. putting more pressure on the tool towards the edge end and effectively forming a slight face bevel, barely noticeable. If necessary lifting it a touch to form a more obvious bevel.
it also means you don't have to flatten and polish the face - which is probably the biggest time wasting and pointless ritual of the new sharpeners.


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## matthewwh (20 Dec 2014)

Jacob":3is2eiqa said:


> it (also) means you don't have to flatten and polish the face - which is probably the biggest time wasting and pointless ritual of the new sharpeners.



Agreed.

I couldn't give a tinkers about freehand or managed, that's a personal choice between two valid methods.


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## JohnPW (20 Dec 2014)

It seems the video is now private...


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## Jacob (20 Dec 2014)

bugbear":1k47zx2f said:


> ...
> I have a real soft spot (and quite an accumulation) of these lovely old stones that haven't been cut fully square on all sides. Some of them
> have only 1 flat surface, the upper one.
> 
> BugBear


If the flat surface is the lower one they are completely useless. Something to be aware of. :roll: I suppose you could fix them to the ceiling?


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## CStanford (21 Dec 2014)

matthewwh":1b4idek8 said:


> CStanford":1b4idek8 said:
> 
> 
> > Once the flat side of a cutter is flattened and polished it needs no further work other than regular backing off and stropping. If the strop is flexible at all then fine polishing takes place all the way to the cutting edge when both sides are worked.
> ...



Well, see, the problem with the Ruler Trick is that it has seemingly morphed from a temporary workaround for the *very occasional *blade one might run across that is more out of flat than one presently has the time to deal with, but for some odd reason must use immediately anyway (hard to imagine that a professional or serious amateur with decades of experience would find himself or herself in such a situation). Anybody routinely confronted with such cutters must be in a semi-comatose state given the state of today's market for after-market blades. Clearly, there is no reason to subject oneself to such torture. I have had remarkable luck with the used tools I've bought over the years. All were relatively easily rectified - backs flattened and polished with a minimal amount of strain. I've never quite understood all the drama and need for workarounds. Once done, it's done. God Bless Record. I think all the plane irons I've had in my shop have been essentially dead flat and polished right to the edge in short order. As I sit here tonight not one jumps out in my mind as having been something that I would characterize as a problem.

So, the real metric is what is actually required on a flat cutter on a day in and day out basis. And this is somewhat deformable strop, judiciously used, either entirely untreated except for the silica naturally found in many leathers, or one treated with a very fine abrasive powder (please, no waxy sticks!). No ruler trick.

Calling flattening and polishing the backs of one's cutting implements, only required once in a tool's lifetime, as 'wasted time' is akin to asserting that it's not necessary to four square project stock accurately before joinery and assembly begin. It is just absurd on its face. Sorry.

Still, most will soon come to this state of being anyway and give relatively decent service in the meantime. But, it's the craftsman's choice - spend fifteen minutes and get it done and out of the way and enjoy consistent service from the tool for the rest of its lifetime. Perhaps it is the "overstaffing" of one's toolbox that's really to blame. Too many tools. There really isn't much time involved in getting a modest and honest kit of tools ready for work. Otherwise, the task can seem insurmountable in the face of a sea of tools the majority of which were redundant at the outset.


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## Corneel (21 Dec 2014)

CStanford":20dl7eta said:


> I have had remarkable luck with the used tools I've bought over the years. All were relatively easily rectified - backs flattened and polished with a minimal amount of strain. I've never quite understood all the drama and need for workarounds. Once done, it's done. God Bless Record. I think all the plane irons I've had in my shop have been essentially dead flat and polished right to the edge in short order. As I sit here tonight not one jumps out in my mind as having been something that I would characterize as a problem.



Then you've had a lot more luck then me! I only remember once, two nice paring chisels that were very clean and came with a nice hollow in the back. All my other vintage tools needed extensive work, pitting being the largest problem usually. I've still got a big millwrights chisel, 5cm wide, in a drawer somewhere, where the edges are dubbed over at least half a milimeter.



> Perhaps it is the "overstaffing" of one's toolbox that's really to blame. Too many tools. There really isn't much time involved in getting a modest and honest kit of tools ready for work.



Ooch, there you've got me.  
But they are so nice, and they didn't cost much....


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## Cheshirechappie (21 Dec 2014)

JohnPW":3l0b40ts said:


> It seems the video is now private...



Ah - it's not just me that gets that response, then!

Makes you wonder how many people are arguing about a video they haven't actually watched.....


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## Andy Kev. (21 Dec 2014)

Peter Sefton":1o8e5h5a said:


> Has any one got much experience of using the Shapton stones? If so how have you got on with them?
> 
> One of my past students has some after seeing Rob using them, we have access to them and I have thought about putting them on the website but would like to hear from long time users for their opinions.
> 
> Cheers Peter


These are the views of a beginner - I've only been at this woodworking lark 18 months now - so they should perhaps be treated with caution.

I have a set of Shapton stones plus holder as offered by Dictum. The stones are 1,000, 3000 and 8,000. I also bought a 500 stone for rough work but once the edges were sorted out it slipped into redundancy. I had previously had a Cerax 1,000/6,000 combination stone. I'm much happier with the Shaptons because while the Cerax (which worked well) required a 10 minute soak before use, I only have to spray the Shaptons with water and the soak time is the time needed to set up my Veritas Mk II guide.

The results seem, to my untutored eye, to be tip top and consistent. A2 steel is dealt with very quickly indeed and one of the upshots of this is that as my confidence in the system and my ability to use it have grown, I am now sharpening much more often. It really is just a quick job at the end of a session.

I'm not sure that the 8,000 stone is absolutely necessary as the 3,000 seems to produce a pretty sharp edge and from what I've read on here the 8,000 "effect" will be worn off after only a few strokes of the plane. On the other hand as so little time is needed to put that edge on, why not?

I realise I might get my head ripped off for having this kit (particularly the guide) but in my defence I offer the following: I know no-one who has the skills to teach me and as such have to learn from books, DVDs (thank you David Charlesworth and Christopher Schwarz) and the internet. I'm absolutely sure that it is a lot more craftsmanlike (and cheaper!) to sharpen freehand but without a tutor one needs all the help one can get. Therefore I can honestly recommend these stones and perhaps some sort of guide system to any other beginner. (For what it's worth I find that spokeshave blades are a doddle to sharpen by hand but I wouldn't dare to try to put a secondary bevel on them by hand.)


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## CStanford (21 Dec 2014)

Corneel":ykq3m3p7 said:


> CStanford":ykq3m3p7 said:
> 
> 
> > I have had remarkable luck with the used tools I've bought over the years. All were relatively easily rectified - backs flattened and polished with a minimal amount of strain. I've never quite understood all the drama and need for workarounds. Once done, it's done. God Bless Record. I think all the plane irons I've had in my shop have been essentially dead flat and polished right to the edge in short order. As I sit here tonight not one jumps out in my mind as having been something that I would characterize as a problem.
> ...



I think the problems start when efforts to rehabilitate essentially ruined tools somehow morph into being orthodox workshop practice. Anything beyond very lightly freckled tools just aren't worth fooling with. There are better vintage tools on the market and certainly the choice in new tools and replacement cutters is broad enough to be able to avoid the issue altogether. I avoided the problem simply by asking sellers the condition of the tools I was buying if it wasn't obvious from photos. Really, a very simple process.

While there are books dealing specifically with how to refurbish used tools, I don't own one single book on the craft of woodworking itself that starts with the premise that one acquires rust-encrusted tools with which to start their journey in woodworking. And no wonder, it's ridiculous. 

Nor do any of these books provide methods of sharpening to accommodate or work around moderately to severely pitted steel. I've read no credible manual on the craft of woodworking that ever has. Orthodox methods assume clean steel - a perfectly reasonable assumption. If the pitting is all the way to the cutting edge then the little slip that results from using the Ruler Trick won't be effective anyway. It simply is not large enough or deep enough to work past anything but the lightest pitting, pitting that could have been gotten rid of in the first place simply by lapping.

A slight lift will allow one to remove rag on a bellied cutter that won't lie flat. But the slight lift needs to be done at the strop, not a stone. And if the strop is relatively compressible the lift itself likely won't be necessary.

And the 30,000 ft. view begs the question -- who in the world would be using a preponderance of bellied chisels and plane irons in the first place? A professional over three decades into the craft? Makes no sense in that amount of time a kit of tools haven't come into flat if by nothing other than sheer accident.


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## Corneel (21 Dec 2014)

Ha ha, we live in different parts of the world obviously! It's all part of the fun, when you are so inclined.


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## CStanford (21 Dec 2014)

Corneel":2vyvz74m said:


> Ha ha, we live in different parts of the world obviously! It's all part of the fun, when you are so inclined.



People do have fun with it, but it is ancillary to woodworking. One could have a stunning career and never lay hands on a vintage tool or make a habit of restoring them for use. My personal goal is to leave a bunch of tools behind that are nothing but nubs, rather than bushel-baskets full of ones that I restored.

I do have some old tools but they were well cared for before coming into my hands. I think that sort of continuity is more appealing than the converse.


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## n0legs (21 Dec 2014)

CStanford":iykeu9mh said:


> People do have fun with it, but it is ancillary to woodworking. One could have a stunning career and never lay hands on a vintage tool or make a habit of restoring them for use. My personal goal is to leave a bunch of tools behind that are nothing but nubs, rather than bushel-baskets full of ones that I restored.
> .



Agreed.
The frequency of these debates makes me wonder if these extremely sharp tools ever see a bit of wood. Might be a lot of `all show and no go' with some.


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## CStanford (21 Dec 2014)

There are people on the boards that have kits of tools that dwarf the combined kits of, say, Alan Peters, Tage Frid, and Frank Klausz combined. Not to mention power equipment to go along with the equal or better of these same craftsmen.

There is a point past which it becomes just plain strange, even if a lot of people are doing it. Nobody begrudges an adequate kit, but some of those I've seen beggar belief in an homage to pure redundancy.

I'd be looking for honing shortcuts too I suppose.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall and watch the mental wheels turn as somebody decides which the four or five No. 7s they own (for all intents identical planes) will be used that day to shoot a few edges for a panel glue-up. It's bizarre.


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2014)

Cheshirechappie":1mxbzte1 said:


> JohnPW":1mxbzte1 said:
> 
> 
> > It seems the video is now private...
> ...


I watched a few minutes of it but it was the same old stuff and a bit of a promo for Woodriver planes. Some very shiny tools there!
Vaguely interesting to hear that he's into freehand but I'm not desperate to find out the details. It was bad enough watching Deneb P struggling away so seriously with a scrub plane on a LN video. :lol:

"NEW! - Purchase any Woodriver Plane at robcosman.com and receive a FREE three month dual membership subscription to "Rob Cosman's Online Workshops""

Wowee!!


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## Graham Orm (21 Dec 2014)

I can't believe this thread has got to 4 pages in 29 hours. I can't be bothered reading it all, but my 2 penneth is a leather strop. No matter what medium you use, I always find that the strop with aluminium oxide on it as a final quick polish makes a noticeable difference.


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## Corneel (21 Dec 2014)

Not so judgemental guys. To each his own.


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## JohnCee (21 Dec 2014)

David C":1xwa8rbi said:


> I think the speed of Rob's sharpening is remarkable.



It is for sure.
But he manages to pack in a large amount of unnecessarily frantic rubbing in the short time he takes.


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## bugbear (21 Dec 2014)

JohnCee":1nzv7m7f said:


> But he manages to pack in a large amount of unnecessarily frantic rubbing in the short time he takes.





Jacob":1nzv7m7f said:


> No effin about - thrust away furiously, fast and efficient.



Perhaps Butler and Cosman have more in common than either would care to admit.

Bugbear


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## iNewbie (21 Dec 2014)

I don't think Cosman wipes his on a tissue though...


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## David C (21 Dec 2014)

I read a few posts, but it was the same old stuff.

Jacob's video efforts eagerly awaited......... 

David


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## CStanford (21 Dec 2014)

The most difficult part of it all is grinding the hollow and videos really can't teach it IMO. You just have to get in there and do it. Might even draw temper on a cutter trying to learn but there is no substitute. And once one is successful producing a hollow the rest is register the hollow and hone, or register the hollow lift slightly and hone.

Of course beginners shouldn't start with pitted steel and bellied cutters, and one wonders why anybody else would want to waste their time on it either.


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## Rhossydd (21 Dec 2014)

David C":1czo65h5 said:


> Jacob's video efforts eagerly awaited.........


A video from Jacob ? a flick book is more likely.


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## G S Haydon (21 Dec 2014)

I think this vid from FWW is not too bad at all on grinding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB-Pa73Snp4


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## Peter Sefton (21 Dec 2014)

Andy Kev.":37kbeymu said:


> Peter Sefton":37kbeymu said:
> 
> 
> > Has any one got much experience of using the Shapton stones? If so how have you got on with them?
> ...



Thanks for the input and your experience of using the Shaptons, I do like the idea of only a quick spray of water to get them going. 

The Veritas MK2 is a great bit of kit and we find that new woodworkers do produce excellent and repeatable edges every time when using it. If they can master the technique of free hand honing all the better but repeating 30 degrees is one thing, repeating 17 degrees back bevels and high angles is a lot trickier. The Veritas will cope with most things you throw at it, but not all.

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (21 Dec 2014)

Rhossydd":ss5up4zw said:


> David C":ss5up4zw said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob's video efforts eagerly awaited.........
> ...


I've got nothing to sell and anyway the trad way is dead simple. You can't make money by telling people they _don't_ need x, y, z.
Sellers vid is good - just transpose that to an oil stone.
It really is an odd phenomenon the way sharpening has been taken over and made difficult/expensive by the new boys. Has the same thing gone on in many other areas? NB it's not "progress", if anything it's the opposite.


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## blackrodd (21 Dec 2014)

G S Haydon":9sm6hf06 said:


> I think this vid from FWW is not too bad at all on grinding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB-Pa73Snp4




As you say, not too bad, but he had the shakes somewhat and another one who doesn't say anything on the correct wheel grit for the job.
Most of the new grinders seem to arrive with an 80 grit wheel, which is really too fine and will tend to burn the steel quite easily. 40 grit is far too course but a 60 grit will remove the steel quite quickly without too much burning or "blueing" and he had the water as a coolant.
As for "crowning" the cutting edge, I would think that the idea is to allow for a smaller grit area to come into contact with the chisel, thereby helping to keep the chisel steel cooler, I would think it difficult not to follow the wheel's shape and ending up with a roundy ended chisel.
I was always taught to keep the stone the shape you wish to end up with and our saw shop had more than a dozen carborundum wheels different sizes and shapes for the cutters alone.
I still sharpen free hand, without the rest guard, It's very much like riding a bike or driving a car, the more you do, the easier it gets as you're confidence grows.
Regards Rodders


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## bugbear (21 Dec 2014)

Jacob":2oqlga89 said:


> Sellers vid is good - just transpose that to an oil stone.



Sequence of 3 diamond grits, high level of polishing via stopping, proper emphasis on back flattening, all good stuff.

BugBear


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## David C (21 Dec 2014)

Yes, I enjoyed reading his ode to the hollow oilstone, but what does he choose to use?

David


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## Corneel (21 Dec 2014)

Now I understand why he thinks his chisel and plane iron backs remain polished indefinitely. He polishes them every time on a strop with polishing compund! So, there is no magic after all.


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## CStanford (22 Dec 2014)

Yes, one works the backs of chisels and plane irons on the strop to remove rag and to polish.

A strop isn't really necessary with very fine media but no media in the form of a stone is as fine as the finest powder one can apply to a strop.


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## CStanford (22 Dec 2014)

G S Haydon":w053uoh2 said:


> I think this vid from FWW is not too bad at all on grinding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB-Pa73Snp4



It is pretty good. I must admit that I happily use 'Jacob's method' almost exclusively but I do often finish on a hard strop with AlOx powder. In context, it amounts to my finest stone I guess.


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## bugbear (22 Dec 2014)

CStanford":1uqac0ro said:


> ...t I do often finish on a hard strop with AlOx powder. In context, it amounts to my finest stone I guess.



The main difference between a strop and a fine stone is that a traditional strop has quite a lot of give in it, so the 
edge is slightly rounded and made steeper (on a near microscropic scale) as the abrasion proceeds. This flex
is quite useful when sharpening gouges - the abrasive, to some extent, confirms to the curve.

In the modern era, some people use hardwood strops, or even diamond dust in cast iron or copper - these strops (or laps)
are very nearly identical in behaviour to stones.

BugBear


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## CStanford (22 Dec 2014)

Yep, I use the powder on hard rubber. If I make a bit of a bumbling pass on the hard rubber it won't really ruin the work that came before.


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## buffalobill (22 Dec 2014)

Jacob":2vds5rlp said:


> I wouldn't watch it too closely - Cosman is into "difficult" sharpening in a big way. Better off with Sellers. Keep it simple.


Both Seller and Cosman do freehandsharpening, Sellers use 3 diamondstones and a strop vs Cosmans 2 stones i really dont see Sellers metod any easier/simpler


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## David C (22 Dec 2014)

It must be that fiendish 6 inch ruler which upsets Jacob. 

Much too "difficult".........


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## Jacob (22 Dec 2014)

Not difficult just pointless. One extra bit of fiddling about which nobody needs.


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## David C (22 Dec 2014)

Now that I think about it there are indeed some difficulties.

There are several excellent reasons for using the ruler, and they need a little effort to be understood properly.

It then becomes clear that the ruler is far from pointless.

The method was specifically adopted for Japanese waterstones. Perhaps this is why the oilstone user is so sceptical?


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## CStanford (22 Dec 2014)

I've actually forgotten what the ruler trick is supposed to accomplish. It seems superfluous on a tool that has a flat and polished back. 

What is it actually for?

After 30+ years in the profession don't all your chisels and plane irons have flat and polished backs by now? If not, why not?

If the new stuff you're buying for your school is severely out of kilter please tell us what brands you are buying so we can avoid them.

I've never spent more than fifteen to twenty minutes flattening and polishing up the most pedestrian of brands - chisels, irons, etc.


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## David C (22 Dec 2014)

As you have forgotten, I wonder why you expend energy being rude about it? 

If you use oilstones, I would not bother to take the trouble to understand the issues.


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## Graham Orm (22 Dec 2014)

It's Christmas guys........anyone got a football?


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## iNewbie (22 Dec 2014)

/sound of a ball deflating from an oil-stoned sharpened chisel...


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## blackrodd (22 Dec 2014)

Grayorm":1b88tc1k said:


> It's Christmas guys........anyone got a football?



personally, I'd wait 'til after the Christmas carols have finished, before getting the ball out and then share honing photo's!
Regards Rodders


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## MIGNAL (22 Dec 2014)

Grayorm":2r35515q said:


> It's Christmas guys........anyone got a football?



That's a little premature. Let the war continue.


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## CStanford (22 Dec 2014)

David C":se06xwnt said:


> As you have forgotten, I wonder why you expend energy being rude about it?
> 
> If you use oilstones, I would not bother to take the trouble to understand the issues.



I would honestly like to have an understanding of what issue needs to be solved once a tool's back is flat and highly polished all the way across the cutting edge and for a fair distance behind the cutting edge to accommodate loss of length over time. I've read for years that this is the ideal and this from sources considered classics in the field. You are apparently asserting it is not. I'd like to understand why.

On tools not specifically treated on the front end (a jack plane iron or two) I have been unable to stop the backs from becoming flat and polished. I can't imagine a scenario where they wouldn't over time, and in reality not all that much time. If it's a problem it's one that solves itself -- my favorite kind. Are other people somehow having a different experience? If so, to what would this be attributed? The outcome seems a certainty.


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## woodbrains (22 Dec 2014)

Hello,

I got 20 new block planes for highschool, not best quality, but not bad considering budget constraints. The ruler trick was a godsend preparing those! This is a good instance for its use, I think you'll agree.

The wear bevel on plane irons extends further on the flat side than the bevel side. This is especially so on bevel up planes. It is quite possible to raise a wire edge when honing, but not actually get past the wear bevel, so thinking you've sharpened, but actually not. You might just return to the stone and hone some more to get past the wear bevel. It is arguable that a small back bevel, such as that produced be the ruler trick will get past the wear bevel quicker and save time, steel and uncertainty, therefore should ALWAYS be employed, in fact. 

Knowing and UNDERSTANDING what the ruler trick/back bevels actually do is knowledge that can be useful in the right application. Dismissing certain techniques, that do have uses for some is plain ignorance. It might not be for certain people, but it has demonstrably positive results when used with common sense.

Mike.


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## CStanford (22 Dec 2014)

Mike, I do understand that it's a dodge for tools in less than stellar condition.

I have two block planes and I don't seem to have any difficulty honing their cutters in the normal manner. I don't see any need for a dodge at all. They've always seemed really sharp, cut as if they're really sharp. I suppose ignorance must be bliss in this case.


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## David C (22 Dec 2014)

Charles,

That is the old theory.

If you do a little research over the Christmas break, you might discover what the powerful advantages of the ruler trick are. 

It was devised for synthetic Japanese water stones. And can be used for plane and all other blades, except chisels.

Several notable craftsmen have extolled its virtue, so you should not have too many problems with your research. Chris Schwarz, Rob Cosman, Deneb P., Tom Fidgeon.

Treat it as a challenge! And leave me alone until you are better informed......


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## CStanford (22 Dec 2014)

I see from an article you wrote for PW (linked below) that its main thrust is backing off an iron that has become bellied by a hollow waterstone, viz. it's for bellied cutters.

My cutters are flat, my stones are not worn hollow. I don't believe that I have a use for the ruler trick. I don't have to lift to polish away a burr as my black Ark tests dead flat and it has imposed this level of flatness to my tools over time (with help from the stones that come before it; they're all flat).

Your article, complete with schematics of hollow stones and the resulting belly introduced on a plane iron:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techn ... uler_trick

"One of the main problems occurs as the surface of a sharpening stone wears hollow in use. The flat side of our plane blade develops a bump in its length. (See the illustration at right.) One day we flatten the stone and have a disastrous situation where the critical edge area no longer touches the stone at all. This makes it impossible to polish away the wire edge, which is a vital part of the sharpening process."

I agree that this is more applicable to waterstones than other types of stones -- oil, ceramics, diamond, Scary Sharp, etc.

Your article does confuse me in that the first portion introduces the ruler trick as a way to deal with hollow stones and later in the article you tout the ease at which waterstones can be kept flat.... :wink: It would appear that it is only the lazy waterstone user, one who doesn't keep his stones flat (easily done, right?) that might have use for the technique.

I'm really only concerned with what you've written about the technique since it has been essentially attributed to you. I'm happy to have found the PW article.

How do you suppose the likes of Toshio Odate apparently enjoy the use of waterstones without needing your micro back beveling technique? Is it simply through regular waterstone maintenance? One would assume so. Do you have information to the contrary?


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## Mr T (22 Dec 2014)

Why are people on forums so bloody pedantic! As I see it we all find our own way with the craft, picking up tips and techniques as we travel on the journey, discarding some that don't work for us and adopting others that do. David, Charles, Jacob et al are all doing us a favour explaining their methods but showing themselves up as being rather petty in their pedantry.

For what it's worth here's my unpedantic approach to sharpening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XizVz0ZD9PE

Chris


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## Water-Mark (22 Dec 2014)

Is that really a 20min video to demonstrate a 30 second sharpening technique?

(only kidding :wink: )

Being a beginner my chisels and plane irons are far from perfect but they're more than sharp enough to cut the wood I'm cutting using cheap diamond plates and a leather strop.

I have to wonder, how much sharper can they get, and is it worth the bother?

And Merry Christmas to one and all, however you sharpen your chisels.


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## matthewwh (22 Dec 2014)

My apologies, I've dropped the cat among the pigeons and not been around to fish it out before the feathers start flying.

Charles, please take a moment to reflect upon the following:

The ruler trick is only for plane irons, so all reference to chisels is otiose.

As you know, the fundamental principle of sharpening is to create a line of intersection between two polished surfaces, however there is also the secondary principle to consider:

The smaller a surface is, the less effort it takes to polish it (or the higher the quality of polish can be achieved for the same effort).

We create a secondary bevel on the other side for exactly these reasons, if (unlike a chisel) the back is not a registration surface, why on earth not apply the same logic of a carefully managed convexity to the back of a plane iron.

As Jacob says, the old boys have been doing much the same for years but without the control, I once bought an old Norris smoother with an edge like an axe, and deemed it such a disaster I asked Darryl Hutchinson make me a new one. I now understand that it had been extensively 'without a ruler tricked' and was probably quite recoverable had I followed the previous owner's technique.

The difference is that David's technique is repeatable and controlled, yielding maximum result for minimum effort.

It works just as well with well kept oilstones, especially if you have lovely superfine Arkansas or Charnleys that will deliver a slick glossy polish.

In comparison, a flat back extends the area to be polished, thereby watering down the beneficial effects of backing off and stropping to an area that will not be relevant for decades.

At the end of the day it's just secondary bevels for backs, when we can get away with using it instead of managed concavity (as we must for chisels).

The benefits are abundant, the arguments against either stubbornness, intransigence or both. 

Did all brilliant ideas take this much effort to introduce? If so perhaps we have a view on why it has taken 4000 years to get to where we are now without the benefit of the internet?


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## CStanford (23 Dec 2014)

One gets precisely the same effect by using a charged leather strop, actually probably a better effect.

There isn't one iota of intransigence. The ruler trick is the end result of throwing the baby out with the bath-water, in this instance a simple leather strop and perhaps stones that don't erode on as rapid a schedule.

I still wonder how a decades-long woodworker ends up with anything but tools with flat and highly polished backs. Nobody has been courageous enough to explain it. As far as I can tell, it can only happen to those who defer maintenance on their waterstones.

I totally understand the technique as a dodge if for some reason one finds himself or herself with a shortage of properly prepared plane irons.

Plane irons used for years (really just months) get flat and they get polished. Like death and taxes, it's a certainty. One could go out of their way to work backs on hollow stones but that's just bad technique, not a shop-standard, recommended, or commendable practice.


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## CStanford (23 Dec 2014)

mod edit

Mike, the article speaks for itself.


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## matthewwh (23 Dec 2014)

The polish more than 1mm behind the edge is irrelevant. Why are you wasting effort creating it?

"Because its so easy" doesn't make it any more relevant.


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## CStanford (23 Dec 2014)

matthewwh":13kxb1g8 said:


> The polish more than 1mm behind the edge is irrelevant. Why are you wasting effort creating it?
> 
> "Because its so easy" doesn't make it any more relevant.



If you don't register enough of the cutter on the stone you're likely to cut yourself and it's just plain uncomfortable to me. If you want to see a back being worked read Toshio Odate and look at accompanying photos. Or Hayward, Jones, Hooper, Wells, Taylor, et al.

Why are you fighting it? Just put the plane iron on the stone in a comfortable position and rub. What's the big deal?

I guess I need to take a picture of a row of plane irons to show you guys what a total of an hour or so worth of work will produce followed up by regular honing over the years.

Maybe the whole problem is that I'm the only guy around who is stupid enough to be using the same tools with the same cutters in them?

Beginning to think so.... I'll let you in on a secret -- they actually get shorter over time! Can you believe it?

I have no idea how I could have kept the cutters from getting polished and flat. None at all. It's as if I'm being asked to apologize for not needing a dodge around a bad plane iron. If I did have one really out of whack I simply would have gotten rid of it and bought a new one. What the hell- thirty bucks or so? Please. It's like refusing to by a new package of toilet tissue. Why get mad at your own a$$hole? Get what you need to get done what needs doing.


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## MIGNAL (23 Dec 2014)

I don't think I've come across a poor modern Plane iron, one that requires anything more than a couple of minutes work. 
LN, Veritas, Ray Iles, Quangsheng, modern Stanley premium, unknown Chinese HSS (several) have all been as flat as one could wish. 
The worst I've had was an old thin Stanley blade, which I gave up on. I've also had a couple of old English cast blades that were too far out to bother with but that's out of more than a dozen blades of that type. I also have an old thin Acorn blade that is flat but a bit pitted behind the cutting edge. That will be a candidate for the ruler trick when I eventually reach that pitting. For some reason it happens to be a very good blade, at least as good as any of those modern blades that I've listed. That's why I won't give up on it.


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## CStanford (23 Dec 2014)

You don't know how relieved I am to know I'm not the only one:

"I don't think I've come across a poor modern Plane iron, one that requires anything more than a couple of minutes work. "


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2014)

The only modern blade I had a prob with was an old USA Stanley (laminated). The back (i.e. the same side as the bevel) was oddly uneven and wouldn't lie flat on the frog so I had to flatten it until it had enough high spots to sit still. Quite easy to do as it was the soft side of the lamination.
NB the modern fashion for calling the flat side the "back" instead of the more obvious word "face" leaves the back itself (the bevel side) nameless as nobody seems to call it the "face". 
No accounting for fashion!
I wonder when/why the change occurred. I've got some old woodworker mags (50s and 60s) and the flat side is "the face" throughout - in the texts and in adverts (Marples Chisels amongst others)


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## CStanford (23 Dec 2014)

Makes sense as the no beveled side is oriented upward when installed in the plane. The other side downward, hence the back.

I think I'll switch the way I refer to either side.

You do bring up a good point in that an iron could be _twisted_ and you'll have more problems than just lapping the face - she won't sit tight to the frog and would likely chatter and cut very unevenly. Any effort to produce polish at the cutting edge is potentially just a Band-Aid over a much bigger problem.


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## David C (23 Dec 2014)

Chris T,

Enjoyed your video. Minimal pedantry!

David C


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## CStanford (23 Dec 2014)

High praise indeed.

pe·dan·tic
pəˈdan(t)ik/
adjective
adjective: pedantic

of or like a pedant.
"many of the essays are long, dense, and too pedantic to hold great appeal"
 synonyms:	overscrupulous, scrupulous, precise, exact, perfectionist, punctilious, meticulous, fussy, fastidious, finicky; 
dogmatic, purist, literalist, literalistic, formalist;
casuistic, casuistical, sophistic, sophistical;
captious, hair-splitting, quibbling;
nitpicking, persnickety
"a pedantic interpretation of the rules"


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