# So, do most of you use sketch up for your designs?



## LFS19

I’ve never really got into it, but everyone seems to be using sketch up these days.
I’d be interested to know what other methods people use for design?

What alternatives to sketch up are there (paper methods or software) and is SU the best bet these days?

Cheers.


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## DTR

A sketch on the back of an envelope works for me. 

On occasion I've done a scale drawing, usually when there's funny angles involved. An old roll of wallpaper is quite handy for drawing on; I got a roll for 25p from B&Q (or Homebase?) when they were getting rid of stock.


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## Glynne

This works for me: - Drawing board


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## AndyT

And another vote for pencil and paper. 

For a simple project, a rough sketch and a few dimensions are enough. 
For something more complicated or ambitious I have spent time on a full size plan, elevation and sections. I found that a useful exercise as it forced me to think about all the structural details.


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## MikeG.

In the old days I'd sketch something on an an off-cut in the workshop, in 3D, then just get on with it, working things out at the bench. Then later it became a quick drawing board thing. Once my profession took me to Autocad I started using that, and now I've moved over to DraftSight.


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## dzj

Pencil and paper. Full size plan if possible, or 1:10 on graph paper.


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## Lons

Sketches on A4 paper these days or if to scale I have a couple of drawing boards. I don't bother with software programs these days even though I used Autocad extensively years ago, ( that's because I've forgotten it all now  ).


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## RogerP

Another for pencil and paper - sometimes I even use a ruler.  :wink:


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## Brandlin

Different tools for different jobs.
Pencil and paper for most straightforwards stuff, then sketchup or solidworks for anything needing heavy lifting


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## John15

Paper, HB pencil, scale rule, and a rubber.

John


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## Yojevol

It rather depends on what you mean by design and where you are in the design proces.
If it's conceptual design - roughing out ideas, then paper and pencil is best for speed and free thinking.
Once you move on to detail design then CAD, especially if you have developed 3D skills, has huge advantages:-
You think about how you are going to make it from the outset.
You can easily save alternative versions.
You can run up part lists.
The drawing process can be remarkably analogous to shaping activities in the workshop.
You can easily print off scale or full size drawings for particular needs in the W/S.
If problems arise in the W/S they can be analysed in the CAD model if need be.

I've developed my skills over many years using TurboCad (poor man's Autocad), starting with 2D. However I would certainly recommend plunging into 3D as soon as possible. Older versions of Turbocad are quite good enough for woodworking and can be obtained for a few quid on ebay.
I get huge satisfaction from seeing something develop from my screen into a real object.
I hope that gives some food for thought.
Brian


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## Woodmonkey

Sketchup is great once you have mastered the basics of how to use it. There are lots of very helpful tutorials on you tube, and it's free.
I used to draw everything out, once you've got used to sketchup you will never go back.


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## LFS19

Thanks for the great replies! Seems I have a lot to look into. I’ve wanted to try just pencil and paper as many of you seem to do, but it seems quite daunting as I’ve never reallt designed anything unassisted. It’s something I want to learn how to do. The few pieces of furnature I have designed have been through sketch up, where I’ve muddled through.


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## AndyT

Drawings don't have to be pretty to record ideas about construction. 

This was my fancy angled bread bin







(which some people thought was a toy car...)

and this was my chest of drawers


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## thetyreman

I will continue to use the pencil and paper until the day I die :lol:


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## Tasky

I've messed about with a couple of design packages before. 
Problem is, it takes so long to make something up and you're tied to the desktop PC, pretty much. All that time spent designing and aligning everything in virtual just means I'm not making anything. 

I started carrying little Molleskine notebooks way back when I was working in leather, because my best ideas and solutions usually occur when I'm out and about, at work or otherwise away from my home PC. It's also far quicker to make quick sketches, make alterations or additions, and refine them into nice pretty 3D pencilled artwork later on... if they're even needed. 

TBH, half the stuff I make doesn't need a detailed design sketch anyway. Maybe a few angle measurements and dimensions, a couple of reminder notes for when I come to do the work, and that's about it.


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## John15

For a piece of furniture with a simple design like a table, at most you need a plan, and front and side elevations, plus a detail of the leg/rail joint. This is so easy and quick with pencil and paper as AndyT has said, I'd have thought hardly worth getting the computer out. For much more complicated pieces I can see the benefit of Sketch-up or CAD.

John


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## Fergal

I find Sketchup handy for visualising how something will look in its final location and getting proportions right. For example I once used it to design some under-stairs cupboards so that I could see if the doors would open without fouling anything.

I also used it to layout an ensuite shower room in a loft conversion. By putting a model of a person in the room, I could see if there was enough headroom allowing for the slope of the ceiling.

When designing small items, it is useful to be able to print them out actual size as templates etc.

I've recently been trying Fusion 360 which is considerably more powerful and consequently much harder to learn. Its main advantage is that it is parametric so that you could, for example, design a shelving unit of a certain height with an arbitrary number of shelves which would be equally spaced. By changing the number of shelves required, the program would automatically recalculate everything for you.

Fergal


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## Beau

I use whatever I feel is needed for the job. Sometimes a sketch on and old envelope and do the rest in your head. SU is nice for complicated joints and seeing in 3D how something is going together. Also I am poor at drawing for the customer and SU works well for this but if I could draw well would not use it for this. Favourite when possible is a rod which is a full size plans on a sheet of ply.


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## Woodmonkey

Fergal":1z6xnrfv said:


> I've recently been trying Fusion 360 which is considerably more powerful and consequently much harder to learn. Its main advantage is that it is parametric so that you could, for example, design a shelving unit of a certain height with an arbitrary number of shelves which would be equally spaced. By changing the number of shelves required, the program would automatically recalculate everything for you.
> 
> Fergal



Sketchup can do this.


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## Yojevol

Woodmonkey":3tixk2xa said:


> Fergal":3tixk2xa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've recently been trying Fusion 360 which is considerably more powerful and consequently much harder to learn. Its main advantage is that it is parametric so that you could, for example, design a shelving unit of a certain height with an arbitrary number of shelves which would be equally spaced. By changing the number of shelves required, the program would automatically recalculate everything for you.
> 
> Fergal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sketchup can do this.
Click to expand...

Fusion360 at $360/year?


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## Grawschbags

I have been teaching myself sketchup whilst designing a router table. I roughed it out with pen and paper, then took it to sketchup. It's probably already saved me the cost of some materials given that I could see issues in my design before cutting anything...


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## DBT85

I like Sketchup and, for me at least, it was very easy to learn and use. Way easier than I remember when I used to try and learn 3dsmax or Maya.


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## MikeK

Yojevol":1hknwmcy said:


> Fusion360 at $360/year?



From the Autodesk website, Fusion 360 is free to hobbyists and startup businesses that have less than $100K in gross revenue. The free subscription must be renewed each year for as long as Autodesk supports the generous offer.

https://www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/free-trial


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## Eric The Viking

Grawschbags":hw4lm1bi said:


> I have been teaching myself sketchup whilst designing a router table. I roughed it out with pen and paper, then took it to sketchup. It's probably already saved me the cost of some materials given that I could see issues in my design before cutting anything...



Exactly the same for me - SketchUp lets me test designs before diving in, saving both mistakes and materials. 

For example, I had a shock recently when I realised that for the interior doors I'm planning to make, I can save about seven feet of stock by using dominoes instead of traditional mortice and tenon joints. That's _per door_, and I have a dozen of them to make. It means the dominoes will pay for themselves and the construction will be much simpler as a consequence. Of course, if I was more experienced I'd know this already (and I'd already have a story stick, too), but I'm not. Seeing it as 3D objects really helped in construction decisions.

Of course I rough stuff out with pencil and paper (weapon of choice is a 3B or 4B pencil), but my measurements come from SU, as do the plans usually, and I can quickly get sections through a 3D object, to see if there are issues such as clearances that will cause problems.

Two more recent examples: 

I've got to make a strong storage box for castoring legs for a tower scaffold system. These things are three feet long (roughly), very unbalanced (weight at one end), tubular and greasy. But they are also fragile and a safety-critical component. And I need space to store small parts for the toeboard brackets, etc. I won't be using it - it belongs to the church my wife attends - so things have to pack-in intuitively. So I've drawn out a castor column to scale, and copied it four times. These objects I can just move around in 3D until I get a practical arrangement.

I'm refurbishing a motorbike fuel tank, by stripping paint and rust from the inside and re-coating it. It's big and will be pretty heavy when it's full of chemicals. I'm making a jig to hold it, allowing it to rotate for agitation and invert for draining out. I can't afford to drop it (no dents presently) nor splash chemicals on the outer paint finish. So again, modelling it and the jig lets me see if ideas will work.

I've also played with drill press table designs, etc. Again, I picked up on problems where the quill three-handled drive would foul parts of the table, and issues fixing it to the press's existing circular table, for which I think I now have a neat solution.

I could do all of this without SU, but nowadays it's my go-to aid for thinking through design problems. 

. . . 

The biggest tip I was given, incidentally, is to make every object you create a "component", as soon as you draw it out - cubes, cylinders, whatever. That way you can control how they interact with other parts of the model (you can always combine them later on). The ability to have clones of a component, such that changing one modifies all of them at the same time, is invaluable for things like table legs and other repeated components in a design. I use that a great deal too - it's automatic and very fast. Again you can turn this off quickly if you need to.

HTH, E.


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## beechman

Pencil and paper, ruler and a glass of wine for me  
I gave up on sketch up when I couldn't download it properly (my fault I'm sure)


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## HOJ

Sketchup is my preferred method, I am inspired by Dave Richards for woodworking www.finewoodworking.com/author/david-richards and Nick Sonder for Architecture www.nicksonder.com/


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## woodbloke66

DTR":1cvd215i said:


> A sketch on the back of an envelope works for me.
> 
> On occasion I've done a scale drawing, usually when there's funny angles involved. An old roll of wallpaper is quite handy for drawing on; I got a roll for 25p from B&Q (or Homebase?) when they were getting rid of stock.



Generally I agree with this approach as I just can't be faffed with SketchUp. Over the last couple of years I've created several boards on Pinterest of stuff that interests me and it's from this that I get most of my inspiration and ideas for new projects. Any new project is sketched out in a drawing book from Poundland and further details can be drawn approx. to scale on squared paper, available from WHS.

I then make a 1:2 or 1:5 scale drawing(s) on white wallpaper lining paper (cheap as chips but buy the lightest grade) which you can get from any of the DIY sheds - Rob


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## Jacob

Pencil, T square, set square, A1 drawing board. Sketch pads backs of envelopes etc.
Sometimes paint a bit of hardboard with white emulsion for big full size drawings.
MFC shelving for rods.
You can't do rods with Sketchup or a computer unless you have a plotting printer. Even then it's just paper- better on a board so you can lay stuff on.


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## MikeG.

Well, I've been an Autocad* man for getting on for 20 years, so I find myself diverted to drawing furniture or somesuch when I'm bored working. I am quite happy sketching on a scrap of mdf or the back of an envelope, though, and have done some pretty substantial pieces of furniture without any formal drawing. 

*Draftsight for the last year or so. It's excellent, it's free, and it took me less than 2 days to teach myself.

The following is the real benefit of drawing on the computer, rather than at a drawing board, in my view. This is a series of sketches of alternative pedestal designs for a dining table I am planning for next year. It takes seconds to copy a design across and alter it, so that you have side-by-side comparisons, and can make an informed choice from a dozen or more alternatives:


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## Jacob

I see your point but in fact you'd get something fairly equivalent, possibly more creatively, by the process of pencil sketching, rubbing out, sketching again, but much more quickly, freely and without switching a computer on!


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## MikeG.

I do that too, Jacob. The point is you don't get the side-by-side thing. The only sketch you're left with is the last one. That's fine for something small and simple. Also, client's like to have a choice......even if that client is your wife/ partner.


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## Jacob

MikeG.":2l743y0o said:


> I do that too, Jacob. The point is you don't get the side-by-side thing. The only sketch you're left with is the last one. .......


Well no. The way I do it (often) is to pin a big sheet of cheap flip chart paper on my board and work all over it. Sketches, alternative versions, rubbed out bits, measured bits, notes, all sorts of stuff all visible in one place. You just can't spread out on a computer!
I do similar with written stuff - notes, boxes around interesting bits, arrows, Venn type diagrams, calculations and so on. Looks a mess but it is so accessible. Then pin other stuff on the wall sometimes.
There's so much you just can't do with a computer - it's like having to work looking through a little telescope or something.


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## MikeG.

Jacob":3vsty9oe said:


> ........You just can't spread out on a computer!.........





Jacob":3vsty9oe said:


> .......There's so much you just can't do with a computer - it's like having to work looking through a little telescope or something.




A few years ago I was drawing a block of flats which was a quarter of a mile long and 12 stories high. I could zoom out and see the whole building, and then zoom in to see the "H" on the top of a hot tap. Whatever you think of computers as a design tool, don't accuse them of not having enough space!!  Don't forget you're talking to someone whose early years as an architect were all spent on the drawing board, and who sketches all the time. I sketch live for clients, often upside down so that they can see properly. Here, for instance, is the first sketch I did of my front door:






I was sitting on an aeroplane at the time. And here, for comparison, is the door:






So yeah, I'm a big fan of sketching as part of the design process. It is _*the*_ critical part. However, it has its limitations, and the computer has strengths which sketching can never match.


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## Jacob

Well yes of course a design prog does some amazing things. But when it comes to little woodwork projects a computer can make life difficult, especially for people who haven't got the hang of a pencil. You have to revert to the pencil at some point, you might as well start with one.


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## nabs

the other bonus of having a physical drawing is it encourages other people to engage with it in a way that it is not nearly as natural or convenient when on a PC. 

Not strictly design related, but when modern technology companies started to reject computer based planning and drawing tools in favour of post-it notes, whiteboards etc the major impact was that people on the teams actually started to look at them, sometimes for the first time.


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## Cordy

Inkscape is good enough for me, it's free and plenty YouTube tutorials
LOOK
Detail of a proposed Walnut Trestle table


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## matt

My choice of pencil/paper, Sketchup, or not plan at all tend to be driven by the physical size of the components and my workshop setup. Let me explain...

My "workshop" is a garage (from the day of Austin A35s (i.e. small!)). I often expand out on to the patio too. In a nutshell, I am not blessed with a workshop where I can cut sheet, use the routere etc as required. It tends to get set up for each stage of a project. So... when making a 14ft run of fitted wardrobes, I want to cut all the sheet first, then the door parts, then move on to assembly. A Sketchup design which produces a cut list works well for me. It gives me the confidence I've got the dims correct for each stage so I can somewhat blindly cut all the timber to size.

By contrast, if I had a large workshop with spaces for cutting sheet, routing, assembly etc, then I'd be more likely to prepare things ad-hoc. Cutting the parts that define the overall size, then cutting shelves, back panels, etc to fit later.

I much prefer the latter way of working as, for me, it's doing the design and construction in the workshop; allowing to devise solutions on the fly. The former does, at least, ensure solutions to challenges are not constrained by work already completed.


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## Jacob

Cordy":eln3eysl said:


> Inkscape is good enough for me, it's free and plenty YouTube tutorials
> LOOK
> Detail of a proposed Walnut Trestle table


Yebbut what does that drawing do for you which a pencil sketch wouldn't?


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## Bodgers

Jacob":3izu5r2g said:


> Cordy":3izu5r2g said:
> 
> 
> 
> Inkscape is good enough for me, it's free and plenty YouTube tutorials
> LOOK
> Detail of a proposed Walnut Trestle table
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yebbut what does that drawing do for you which a pencil sketch wouldn't?
Click to expand...

The ability to change things quickly and view it in 3D. If it was SketchUp or Fusion...

I use Fusion 360 now instead the of SketchUp as it allows you to parameterise the dimensions and then just change and scale things instantly whereas SketchUp doesn't. 

SketchUp also has a great CAM mode for ever you want to generate any part of your drawing to be sent to a CNC.





Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk


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## Jacob

I can see the point re CNC but otherwise I think I'll stick with a pencil and paper - it's literally 'hands on' and is inescapable when you get to the rods (the poor mans CNC?).


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## Cordy

Used Inkscape to print these stick-ons to scale
B are a flipped copy of A to give the mirror image






Line up the Domino machine to cross-hair and drill away




Placed legs in vice supported by spars on both sides and they drilled easy enough too; no photos  
I've no doubt there are easier ways but that method is OK for me


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## PiratePete

Another vote for DraftSight here.
Sketchbook and pencil when chatting to the customer, but DS to email them the the drawing. Admittedly this is mostly for kitchens.
It took me years to try any cad program and hung on to my drawing board far longer than my less luddite mates. Eventually I went for AutoCAD 2005 and I'd still be using it now if I hadn't had to move from xp to 7.


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## 8squared

I've tried the free online version but despite watching several tutorials i can get it to work for me so i just forgot about it and plodded along with the "scribble measurements, check measurements, cut once then realise i've cut wrong or in the wrong place" method.


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## Just4Fun

I go to a weekly woodwork evening class. I always produce Sketchup drawings for anything I am going to make there. It is surprising to me that I am the only one who does that. I have never seen anyone else with any drawing of any kind, not even a scribble on the back of an envelope. They just seem to make it up as they go along. That approach may work for the small projects typically made at a woodwork class but personally I couldn't work like that.


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## Eric The Viking

I love Sketchup, because it lets me quickly fiddle about with details, produce multiple versions, etc. I can also print out "just the awkward bits" if necessary, and so on. I can also keep a detailed model of a component (part of a model) for re-use at a later date. I can switch between imperial and metric units instantly, with no significant loss of accuracy, so, for example I can do a metric model, but add-in imperial parts as necessary. This is handy in an old house when modern materials are involved.

It doesn't replace a pencil and paper, nor a whiteboard, nor story sticks (occasionally!), but I certainly wouldn't want to be without SketchUp, and the more I use it, the more I enjoy using it.


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## Zeddedhed

I pretty much exclusively use Sketchup for working drawings. I have a computer in the workshop and find it very useful to refer to a drawing to check a dimension or to be able to alter the drawing if the client calls and asks for a change.

A lot has to do with how fluent you are with a computer and the software. I can draw up a full set of bedroom furniture with all the relevant joints and board sizes in less than 45 minutes and that will then last throughout the project. The same drawing gives me accurate pricing information, optimises sheet cutting layouts and gives me the finished price including hardware, edging, sheet goods, solid timber - the lot. It can also generate the necessary orders for me to send to to suppliers.

Granted it has taken a bit of work setting things up to do this, but it saves me a considerable amount of time.

But I still carry a notebook and the obligatory stolen screwfix pencil....


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## Bodgers

Fusion360 here. Free for hobby use. I found it easier to learn than SketchUp. Is parameter based (unlike SketchUp) so if you change one dimension it is easier to resize things.

Plus if you do CNC sometimes (like I do with the XCarve) the CAM mode is excellent.



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## worn thumbs

I have never used sketch up.I have used several different CAD programs and in the distant past I sometimes used a drawing board.I can see the drawing board from where I am sitting and it must be twenty years since it saw any use.I don't belittle drawing at a board,but a computer is faster and more accurate,not to mention light years ahead when you need to modify your work. 

Similar to others posting here I learned the basics with a copy of Turbocad which I believe cost a tenner at PC World.It became clear that it was a little out of the main stream and that Autocad was dominant in the business world (this was the nineties) and so I took the basic Autocad course at the local college.The cost of Autocad at the time was a bit steep for my level of use,but it was a bit of an advantage when I got a job at a company with Autocad LT in use.I used a few lunch breaks to draw a small table and increased my familiarity with the features that went beyond the college stuff.

A year or so later I had the chance to learn the basics of ProEngineer.That was a challenge and I never became profficient,but I could see the value of a parametric modelling program as you could just click on a feature and watch the object change shape on the screen.From observing my much more adept colleagues I could see them assigning material properties to each model and then being able to determine the weight and centre of gravity of an item.This became more impressive when they built up an assembly with several parts made of different materials and the same properties could be determined.Obviously this level of capability came with a hefty price tag.

A bit later when I felt the company was circling the plug hole and not long for the world I moved on and found myself in a workshop where the manager had used Microsoft Paint to sketch out the things we were to make.The fellows on the shop floor thought this was CAD.....He had been given the elbow a few weeks before I started and the owner of the company was keen to use technology to improve efficiency.The boss bought Rhino and I remain convinced it is the best combination of features and value on the market.Fusion may be good and popular as well as free;but so was Photobucket.

For home use I dabbled with Qcad (its now Libre Cad) and for a free 2D drafting program it was reasonably good and capable of exporting dxf versions so that I could circulate them to associates with other programs.When Draft Sight became available I installed it and found the familiar Autocad type screen very helpful and stuck with it for a while.Recently I have been using Freecad as the cost is good-the clue is in the name-it has lots of modules and is a parametric modeller if you need one.It also includes a drafting function for basic drawing and more interesting for me,there is a CAM module.So I can design an item and then generate a toolpath for my almost complete baby CNC router.The great range of file types that can be opened or exported also means that sending a file to somebody else is not a problem and things too big for my tiny machine can go to anybody with a suitable machine.

The plan is to make model components or other stuff that will fit a 380mmX280mmX70mm work envelope.While it may not be everybody's idea of woodworking it means my mistakes are in pixel form and the machine can do accurate and repetitive work while I get on with other stuff.I still have a way to go with the plan and Freecad isn't the easiest to learn,but I do commend it to all of you and the youtube videos have been a great learning tool.As an open source project maintained by enthusiasts it won't be removed from the market place and the adventurous can sign up for the daily updated version to try the latest and greatest tweaks and features.


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## Eric The Viking

Bodgers":78xjaevp said:


> Fusion360 here. Free for hobby use. I found it easier to learn than SketchUp. Is parameter based (unlike SketchUp) so if you change one dimension it is easier to resize things.
> 
> Plus if you do CNC sometimes (like I do with the XCarve) the CAM mode is excellent.



Sounds good, but on a point of info, you _can_ put numbers into SketchUp - I do it all the time for simple things. And that includes radii, angles and distances.

You can also scale in proportion extremely easily, but I don't think you can do it by ratios. I bet there's a Ruby plugin to do it though.

I also agree there is a learning curve to SU, and one biggest issue for me is the approximate nature of curves. That said, there are Bezier plugins available, and I've had it doing complex 3D spirals, and screwthreads (simpler) in the past. 

The biggest issues however are two things: 

1. no native Linux binaries (I've been told there won't ever be any, either).

2. the licencing arrangements - I'd happily pay for a licence, but the full one is unaffordable and has professional features I'll never use. I also have no need of nor interest in the cloud-based version, mainly because of the CPU overhead (browsers are already one of the most processor-intensive applications out there for a normal non-gaming machine, this makes it worse).

So I have a bit of a love-hate thing going on. I really enjoy using SU, and it's very helpful (avoided so many expensive issues by modelling before picking up tools), but I really need a transition plan in case Trimble's marketing team does something else antisocial, to finally make it impractical for me to use.


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## Yojevol

I was going through some old files the other day and came across some sketches which were the start of an ambitious 'Dining Table and 6 Chairs' project. As this thread reappeared just recently, I thought I might be able to use them as a further contribution to this hand sketch/draw vs CAD debate.
This project started with a request from an old friend to design and make a new dining suite. The first step was to produce half a dozen sketches of designs which I thought might appeal. There was a design feature which I had come across in Fiell's book '1000 Chairs'. In particular Riemersmid's Arts & Crafts design for a 'Music Chair' :-



The obvious unusual feature is the link from the back down to the front legs. This was the inspiration for one of the 6 hand sketches I put up for consideration:-



The cross lattice in the back was a particular preference requested by the customer (who is always right – yes/no?). This was the design which was basically approved with a few comments to be attended to.
So this is when I abandoned pen(cil) and paper and started putting mouse to screen and eventually came up with this as a more definitive proposal:-



One of the comments on the sketch was that the back top rail was too straight and looked uncomfortable. So I put some curvature on it and twisted the sides inwards to match. This meant they could no longer be attached directly to the front legs, hence the cross rail between them. I didn't want the sitter's ankles making contact with the cross rail, so I had to raise it up, thus putting a tighter radius on the side curves. From this point they were referred to as the 'hockey sticks'
This drawing was reviewed and I tried arguing that the cross lattice in the back was doing nothing for the design aesthetics; I wanted emphasis on the verticals (after Macintosh).
Not to be beaten I got into the workshop and made up a full size model out of scraps. I attached the lattice horizontals on with tape for easy removal. I invited the clients round for a viewing – 'Great, just what we want'. I then whipped off the horizontals and they immediately changed their minds and accepted my point of view. Lesson learnt – 3-D models can have a big impact. Result:-



Having got the agreed design, I could then use the CAD model for developing jigs and fixtures. These are a number of bezier curves used to make pattens for the hockey sticks:-



This is a jig for routing the tenons on the ends of the hockey sticks:-



Just need to print off a drawing or two to take to the W/S knowing that all angles and dims are exactly correct.
So this is how the design turned out in reality:-



My point in all this is that the various media we have available to us to represent the desired design can all have their place in the process. We in our generation have the luxury of CAD in various forms to suit any pocket. Just think what Riemersmidt would have done with this facility. My advice wrt CAD is to get stuck in right at the start of your journey into the WWW (wonderful world of wood). Learn as you go in tune with efforts in the workshop.
Brian


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## Bodgers

Eric The Viking":3laifa28 said:


> Bodgers":3laifa28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fusion360 here. Free for hobby use. I found it easier to learn than SketchUp. Is parameter based (unlike SketchUp) so if you change one dimension it is easier to resize things.
> 
> Plus if you do CNC sometimes (like I do with the XCarve) the CAM mode is excellent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds good, but on a point of info, you _can_ put numbers into SketchUp - I do it all the time for simple things. And that includes radii, angles and distances.
> 
> You can also scale in proportion extremely easily, but I don't think you can do it by ratios. I bet there's a Ruby plugin to do it though.
> 
> I also agree there is a learning curve to SU, and one biggest issue for me is the approximate nature of curves. That said, there are Bezier plugins available, and I've had it doing complex 3D spirals, and screwthreads (simpler) in the past.
> 
> The biggest issues however are two things:
> 
> 1. no native Linux binaries (I've been told there won't ever be any, either).
> 
> 2. the licencing arrangements - I'd happily pay for a licence, but the full one is unaffordable and has professional features I'll never use. I also have no need of nor interest in the cloud-based version, mainly because of the CPU overhead (browsers are already one of the most processor-intensive applications out there for a normal non-gaming machine, this makes it worse).
> 
> So I have a bit of a love-hate thing going on. I really enjoy using SU, and it's very helpful (avoided so many expensive issues by modelling before picking up tools), but I really need a transition plan in case Trimble's marketing team does something else antisocial, to finally make it impractical for me to use.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's the same thing in SketchUp. It is fully variable based in Fusion. You can parameterise any sizing and scale/resize accordingly without it being destructive.

There is a free version of Fusion. They just don't shout about it.

If you install it, you get the single user/not for profit option afterwards. I have not paid a penny.




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## Eric The Viking

Just checked in SU (this isn't my main CAD machine): you can type scaling proportions into SU for 1D, 2D or 3D scaling. This can be a single face/vertex or a complex component (scaled proportionately) Or you can just drag handles. 

I think you can also simultaneously create a copy of the object if you wish, which is the nearest I can think of to "non-destructive". But obviously there are also umpteen layers of "undo" and nothing to stop you saving versions, etc, as you go along.

I'm _not_ trying to say it's better than other packages - there are limitations in the way I run it* and there are nastinesses in the way it does curves as polygons (or worse, polyhedra in 3D), but it is very popular. 

I have a distinct feeling that a lot of the disparaging voices either learned formally to use old-style CAD packages (and thus feel more comfortable with them), or just haven't looked at what's possible in SU, as some of it is simple, but not instantly obvious.

I also know I can get a complete novice using it productively in about 1/2 hour, which isn't the case for other packages. All my children learned it at school, and occasionally teach me tricks I didn't know, too.

Yes, I struggle to get engineering drawings from it (although even that is possible), but it serves very well for most woodwork applications, and some of the ruby plugins, for example to do threads and spirals, really make it sing.

E.

* I'm stuck at SU 2015, for a start, running in the Wine Windows emulator on xubuntu Linux, but it does run extremely well though, and interacts fully with the clipboard and the Linux desktop, etc. 

It's not supposed to, and if I had a full licence, Trimble wouldn't support it under Linux, but it actually works just fine.


----------



## Bodgers

Eric The Viking":8pkz6xei said:


> Just checked in SU (this isn't my main CAD machine): you can type scaling proportions into SU for 1D, 2D or 3D scaling. This can be a single face/vertex or a complex component (scaled proportionately) Or you can just drag handles.
> 
> I think you can also simultaneously create a copy of the object if you wish, which is the nearest I can think of to "non-destructive". But obviously there are also umpteen layers of "undo" and nothing to stop you saving versions, etc, as you go along.
> 
> I'm _not_ trying to say it's better than other packages - there are limitations in the way I run it* and there are nastinesses in the way it does curves as polygons (or worse, polyhedra in 3D), but it is very popular.
> 
> I have a distinct feeling that a lot of the disparaging voices either learned formally to use old-style CAD packages (and thus feel more comfortable with them), or just haven't looked at what's possible in SU, as some of it is simple, but not instantly obvious.
> 
> I also know I can get a complete novice using it productively in about 1/2 hour, which isn't the case for other packages. All my children learned it at school, and occasionally teach me tricks I didn't know, too.
> 
> Yes, I struggle to get engineering drawings from it (although even that is possible), but it serves very well for most woodwork applications, and some of the ruby plugins, for example to do threads and spirals, really make it sing.
> 
> E.
> 
> * I'm stuck at SU 2015, for a start, running in the Wine Windows emulator on xubuntu Linux, but it does run extremely well though, and interacts fully with the clipboard and the Linux desktop, etc.
> 
> It's not supposed to, and if I had a full licence, Trimble wouldn't support it under Linux, but it actually works just fine.


I did try SketchUp first. It was fine. I used it for a couple of years. 

The only reason why I tried Fusion was when I got the XCarve last year - I needed to generate some v carves, and it was the best way to do it.

Once I had got to grips with it, it just seemed easier to use and more powerful to me. 



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## Simon_M

I have a Mac and I use QCAD. It's a 2D program. The same program is available for Windows and Linux.

I make drawings before turning objects so for me it's sufficient to have a 2D side and top drawing. A sort of 'smart' back of an envelope drawing.

https://qcad.org/en/

There is a "free" version, but I use the Professional version and it's not expensive to buy.

They also have a tutorial book which helps if you haven't done any drawing before and the examples use the program so it's quick to get started and it becomes intuitive after a while.

Things I like are the ability to draw circles and overlay rectangles and then dimension the intersections - this saves having to resort to mental Maths. I also like mirroring and replicating around a circle - typically easy to do with CAD.

As an example I recently cut a '12 sided' wheel rim from a piece of ash and I wanted to know the outside length for each piece (and width of stock to use) to cut using a segmenting jig sufficient for a finished inner/outer radius.

Worked a treat and I can also print drawings 1:1 or scaled to fit A4 or in sections to use as a template etc.

I have a plastic see-through folder to put the drawings in - nothing seems to last five minutes in the workshop.


----------



## ScaredyCat

I've had multiple attempts to work with sketchup but I find it infuriating. It's always grabbing the wrong edge or moving along the wrong axis. drives me mad. I spend more time fighting with it than actaully working with it. 

I can see the value it it, easy measurements, there's a cutlist generator.. many good things bu, good lord I hate it.


----------



## Nikolaj33

Is there any program that is considered as an industry standard? I am considering idea to do seek employment in furniture industry, so I am wondering if there is a program that is widely used. Now that there is time on our hands, which program should I try to learn, Autocad, Scetchup, or something else?


----------



## Fidget

Fusion 360 seems to be widely used. You can get a free license if it's for personal use


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## DBT85

I learned Sketchup really fast and found it intuitive for the kinds of things I do.

I then decided that since Fusion is kind of the next step up that I'd challenge myself and try to make a fully variable workshop to Mikes design in it. It's all going rather well. I'm loving problem solving and using the parameters and formulas to work things out.

This formula for example calculates the variable length of noggin needed on the right side of the door opening.

-ShortPlate + SheetWidth * ( floor(( ShortPlate / SheetWidth ) / 0.5) * 0.5 ) + StudWidth * 1.5

In this design I can change how many bricks I want to be the width and depth of the workshop, and on either side of the door, and EVERYTHING changes to compensate. Amount and length of noggins, studs, rafters, etc. For me to make a change like this in Sketchup would have been hours of work.

The vidoes I watched to help me understand the program a little are the following.

Make a random plastic shape thing
https://youtu.be/qvrHuaHhqHI

Make a 2 part stamp (suposed to be for 3d Printing but I just stopped before that bit!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvrHuaHhqHI

Modelling a framed shed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHlz2tzZaA

Design a parametric Roubo workbench
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJLVbv0uuOQ

It's a slightly different way of thinking to Sketchup but once you get it, it feels very intuitive for me.


----------



## RogerS

ScaredyCat":z6bu8d7x said:


> I've had multiple attempts to work with sketchup but I find it infuriating. It's always grabbing the wrong edge or moving along the wrong axis. drives me mad. I spend more time fighting with it than actaully working with it.
> 
> I can see the value it it, easy measurements, there's a cutlist generator.. many good things bu, good lord I hate it.




Buy Dave Richards DVD....you'll not regret it.


----------



## Halo Jones

I just had to get a new laptop and have lost the free desktop versions of SU I used. I think they were the 2016 or 2017 versions. I have now tried the online version and find it horrible and I'm not spending money on the pro version. I'm really tempted to just ditch it and go with Fusion 360 or Blender. My work also gives me free access to AutoCad and Revit. Which of these is worth learning?


----------



## RogerS

Halo Jones":s4us81ip said:


> I just had to get a new laptop and have lost the free desktop versions of SU I used. I think they were the 2016 or 2017 versions. I have now tried the online version and find it horrible and I'm not spending money on the pro version. I'm really tempted to just ditch it and go with Fusion 360 or Blender. My work also gives me free access to AutoCad and Revit. Which of these is worth learning?



If you're a Mac-man then I have the early versions. Are you sure that they're not available for PCs squirrelled away online somewhere ?


----------



## DBT85

Sketch up is still available I think.

I've learned some fusion in the last few weeks and picked it up quite fast I feel.


----------



## Just4Fun

Can you get the version you need from https://help.sketchup.com/en/downloading-older-versions?


----------



## LarryS.

I downloaded an offline free version of sketchup just a couple of months ago


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## billw

I recall trying to learn sketchup but it was using up so much of my time (and I'm not exactly computer illiterate) that I gave up and went back to pencil and paper.


----------



## Lazurus

Is there any similar programs suitable for an IPAD as i dont have a "pooter"?


----------



## aspire53

There’s an iPAD version of Fusion 360. I am in a learning mode so can’t comment on how it compares with the pooter version.


----------



## RogerS

billw":22mt6kb5 said:


> I recall trying to learn sketchup but it was using up so much of my time (and I'm not exactly computer illiterate) that I gave up and went back to pencil and paper.



You needed to get a copy of Dave Richards' excellent DVD on Sketchup for woodworkers.


----------



## billw

Is it still relevant given it was released a few years back and there's been numerous versions of the software since? Maybe I should download a previous version because the web interface is frustrating?


----------



## Deadeye

Glynne":2bkbh2jo said:


> This works for me: - Drawing board


Yes - I keep going back to it


----------



## billw

So I downloaded Make 2017, watched a beginner course on LinkedIn Learning, and it's SO easy to get the hang of. I still get confused occasionally and draw random lines but overall SU is fine. I am not sure why I didn't like the web version, but the desktop one is fantastic.


----------



## Spectric

Hi all

Have used many programs over the years from Autocad / Solidworks to Orcad and many others I find that with woodworking in a non production enviroment that simple sketches on paper & handling bits of wood to picture the joint or result desired are good enough and allows more time doing the job than producing pretty pictures on a computer. If I need to produce a technical drawing then 2D is adequate and I use Qcad for this purpose, ideal for floorplans and layouts as well as making a library of wood profiles that your router can produce.


----------



## Retired

Hi,

I too have tried to use a number of CAD programs over the years at first I couldn't even draw a straight line but then I wanted to draw spur gears to use as templates. I was truly amazed to find this;

Download FREE CAD Software | Custom Parts | eMachineShop

This CAD program is totally free and includes a spur gear wizard which was highly useful to me; there are many video tutorials too.

Kind regards, Colin.







I wanted to try an idea out; print out full sized paper patterns of the gears I needed; attach each pattern using double sided self adhesive tape to a cast iron gear blank then use the engineering lathe with a single point cutter mounted between centers using the paper template as an index; it worked a treat as seen here.


----------



## Dr Al

I've used pretty much every CAD application going over the years, but for home / hobby stuff I've pretty much settled on a mixture of:

Pen & 5 mm square grid paper - can't be beaten for anything quick.
Onshape (free for non-private projects and runs in a browser and works well even on low spec computers) - very powerful, professional standard CAD for free.
ZW3D for stuff I don't want to be visible to (very determined) other web users. I doubt anyone would ever find any of my onshape projects from amongst the millions, but sometimes you've got to keep stuff private. It's not the cheapest, but it's *way *cheaper than the likes of Solidworks, *way *better than Fusion 360 and nearly up to Onshape's standard.
cadquery - for when I want to do really complicated automated scripty stuff.


----------



## MilesH

I've been using Alibre for 17 years. There is a version called Alibre Atom which is very good value: Alibre Atom3D for hobbyists and model makers


----------



## Dr Al

MilesH said:


> I've been using Alibre for 17 years. There is a version called Alibre Atom which is very good value: Alibre Atom3D for hobbyists and model makers



Have they sorted out the lack of top-down design yet? When I tried Atom3D a year or two ago, it was impossible to design one part based on another in an assembly without permanently locking the two parts together (a fact that was confirmed by their customer support people). I quickly concluded that it was no more capable than FreeCAD (which as the name implies is free) and therefore not worth spending any money on. Given Onshape is free for hobbyist type use (as is Fusion 360), it seemed a bit daft to be paying a few hundred notes for something so basic.


----------



## MilesH

Alibre could be better for top-down modelling but I've never felt particularly restricted when using it in that way. I tend to avoid free stuff from commercial companies because there's no guarantee it will continue....


----------



## Cooper

I really enjoy using Sketchup and have found it very useful for calculating dimensions, if I want to alter proportions of an item that has lots of components. The last time I used it was to work out how to make a wooden land camera to fit on an old magic lantern. (I found making the camera much harder than drawing it!) 
The drawback to using CAD is that some shapes are easier to draw with it and so that can direct the form the item takes. This is particularly true of the case with turned items. 
I am fortunate that I find sketching quite easy and often make preliminary drawings before going to the computer.


----------



## matkinitice

Eric The Viking said:


> For example, I had a shock recently when I realised that for the interior doors I'm planning to make, I can save about seven feet of stock by using dominoes instead of traditional mortice and tenon joints. That's _per door_, and I have a dozen of them to make. It means the dominoes will pay for themselves and the construction will be much simpler as a consequence. Of course, if I was more experienced I'd know this already (and I'd already have a story stick, too), but I'm not. Seeing it as 3D objects really helped in construction decisions.



This is brilliant. I plan to make a set of fitted wardrobes in the future and someone else said something very similar. The tool, plus the cost of the materials still comes in under at what it would cost for a professional fitting/company to do. This is how I can sell the purchase to the missus. 

I wince at the cost of the Domino but actually sitting down and working out the numbers makes it viable. Plus once you have it I'm sure I'll find further use for it in the future.


----------



## Dr Al

MilesH said:


> Alibre could be better for top-down modelling but I've never felt particularly restricted when using it in that way. I tend to avoid free stuff from commercial companies because there's no guarantee it will continue....



Yes the risk-averse tendency was one of the reasons I bought ZW3D rather than just using Onshape for everthing. For a while I used FreeCAD (which is free but not from a commercial company and does everything and more that Alibre could do when I compared them). The lack of top-down modelling was too much of a constraint though and I stumped up the (one-off) cash for ZW3D. I understand that the FreeCAD developers are working on assemblies and top-down modelling, but they weren't there yet when I was trialling the various different options.


----------



## Fireburst

I use Sketchup for the majority of my larger projects but I still revert to my A2 drawing table from time to time. It depends on the complexity.

Like everyone else for simple projects, the back of an envelope seems to suffice.


----------



## Andy F

Sketchup is very useful for dimensioning components for you. I made a set of drawers and shelves with a mitre saw station on top, for my garage.

I had 2 pieces of melamine worktop which i knew the sizes of and I knew the total width and height. Drawing it in sketchup gave me all the drawer carcass dimensions and the amount of wood I needed without having to think about it. With a free add in to sketchup, I got a list of dimensioned parts and, using a website I found for cutting sheets of ply, a full cut list. 

When I can find the original sketchup drawing, I will post it in the "What did you make" forum.

Andy


----------



## Roberto Flintofski

I've recently tried Sketch Up and condenser myself quite pc literate and quick to learn ! However I'm struggling like hell with it ...


----------



## RogerS

Roberto Flintofski said:


> I've recently tried Sketch Up and condenser myself quite pc literate and quick to learn ! However I'm struggling like hell with it ...



Ignore the majority of videos on YouTube as they will teach you bad practice.

Buy a copy of the excellent DVD or download by Dave Richards https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/sho...rkers-the-basics-and-advanced-techniques-dvds

I'm sure there's a download version available somewhere or other if you don't want to wait for the DVD to arrive.


----------



## Roberto Flintofski

RogerS said:


> Ignore the majority of videos on YouTube as they will teach you bad practice.
> 
> Buy a copy of the excellent DVD or download by Dave Richards https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/sho...rkers-the-basics-and-advanced-techniques-dvds
> 
> I'm sure there's a download version available somewhere or other if you don't want to wait for the DVD to arrive.


Will do many thanks


----------



## DBT85

Roberto, start small and piece things together from there. Is there anything in particular that's making you think "It can't be this hard"?



RogerS said:


> Ignore the majority of videos on YouTube as they will teach you bad practice.



What kind of bad practise are we talking about? I fail to believe there are not decent videos of the subject on youtube.


----------



## RogerS

DBT85 said:


> Roberto, start small and piece things together from there. Is there anything in particular that's making you think "It can't be this hard"?
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of bad practise are we talking about? I fail to believe there are not decent videos of the subject on youtube.


A lot of them push Groups as a concept IIRC. Components is the best way.


----------



## DBT85

RogerS said:


> A lot of them push Groups as a concept IIRC. Components is the best way.


Oh, groups can go hang 

Did you give Fusion a go at all?


----------



## RogerS

DBT85 said:


> Oh, groups can go hang
> 
> Did you give Fusion a go at all?



Oh Christ...is this going to become a meaningless sharpening thread ?

If so, I'm out of here.

And no, I haven't tried Fusion. Why would I? SketchUp does what I need. And Fusion probably treats groups the same way SketchUp treats Components.

Frankly I couldn't care less either way. The OP was asking about SketchUp. Not Fusion.


----------



## billw

I found a series of lessons on LinkedIn learning that I found really useful, although I think you have to pay for access to them usually. It was very basic but split up into sections of a few minutes long each so it never got irritating.

There's probably 90% of SketchUp that I don't use, but then again if I don't need it, what does it matter?


----------



## DBT85

RogerS said:


> Oh Christ...is this going to become a meaningless sharpening thread ?
> 
> If so, I'm out of here.
> 
> And no, I haven't tried Fusion. Why would I? SketchUp does what I need. And Fusion probably treats groups the same way SketchUp treats Components.
> 
> Frankly I couldn't care less either way. The OP was asking about SketchUp. Not Fusion.


Ok Rodger. Sorry I seem to have said something out of place.


----------



## pe2dave

At work (a while back) I used autocad, from one floppy disk!
with that in mind I used qcad which I find great where detail is needed. 2D, but that's enough with 3 views.


----------



## NewbieRaf

+1 for struggling with sketch up let me know if you find a way


----------



## Eric The Viking

COMPONENTS are the way to go.

Start off making the simplest things (even mere 2D rectangles!) into components.
Then practice selecting several components and collecting them into one big new component.
Find out how to name components, too.
*Clone* your components (ctrl+C ctrl+V, i.e. copy & paste). You position your clone after making it.
Make new components out of collections of components (nests of nests), and practice drilling down into them, changing one thing, then exit.
Notice how, if you clone components, a change made in one clone automatically affects the same bit in all the other clones - this is superbly useful. Notice, too, how you can use "make unique" to stop this happening (does what it says).​
Experiment on really simple shapes, rather than an actual project, so mistakes don't drive you nuts.

As a rule, when you are making any shapes (2D or 3D), at the first sensible point you are working on it, make it into a component, EVERY time.

I also second Roger - Dave Richards's tutorials and other videos are really excellent.

SketchhUp is brilliant, but it is also clever, and you do need to understand its cleverness to use it. Time spent systematically "playing about" with it will pay back tenfold.

Have fun, E.

PS: Woodworking SU models aren't very big (filesize), so once you start on real projects, don't be afraid to save several copies: "hall_table_1, hall_table_2, etc. You can always delete stuff you no longer need, but sometimes it saves you from over-writing something you need to keep with a version that later turns out to be a mistake.


----------



## Eric The Viking

And another thing:

There is some correlation between the way you group things in SketchUp and real life. For example, a panel door set, where the rails and stiles will each be repeated on each door (although top and bottom rails might differ). I find "thinking in components" can help my real world workflow, or at least echoes it a bit: so I will set up my bandsaw to cut all the tenons in one go, to the same dimensions, and I can "virtually" do this in SU, using components.

I'm sure other 3D modelling packages do this too, but SU is easy for me, and free.

HTH, E.


----------



## johnny

LFS19 said:


> I’ve never really got into it, but everyone seems to be using sketch up these days.
> I’d be interested to know what other methods people use for design?
> 
> What alternatives to sketch up are there (paper methods or software) and is SU the best bet these days?
> 
> Cheers.


absolutely I sketch up .. I often draw to scale if its something I am designing from scratch. Sketching up not only helps me to visualise how It will look and perform its function but how I will go about constructing something and crucially anticipate any potential constructional problems before I start.
Besides drawing up is a great way of putting off starting a job yet convincing yourself and others that you are making progress


----------



## Eric The Viking

^^^ Particularly the last bit.


----------



## Jelly

I've tried most of the CAD programs over the years...

My hands down favourite is Siemens Solid Edge (with an honourable mention to NX, which is just a bit too powerful for my needs), nothing else holds a candle to it for me.

Fusion360 is ok and has good native CAM tools (as does SolidEdge, but Fusion has a bigger library of plugins to translate g-code for non commercial control setups).

AutoCAD is very fussy and old fashioned to use, but also so widely available that I've had to learn it... I like certain elements of it, but usually find myself wanting to use an actual drawing board instead.

Tried, SketchUp found it awful to use and once I began to get a handle on it frustratingly limited compared to a "real" CAD program; deleted it and went back to using other software

With all that in mind, I'll still default to working from a sketch when doing woodwork, it's only if I have a very complex design that I can see value in making a CAD model first.


----------



## Sandyn

Pencil and paper, but to capture ideas, not really for accurate design. I use Inkscape for other type of work where I need dimensions, like room planning, diagrams and stuff like that. I also use it sometimes for accurate marking of metal parts since the printed output is to scale. I'm at the age where I can't be bothered learning another software package which I occasionally use, then go through a mini learning curve every time I use it.


----------



## Eric The Viking

I use Inkscape too, but it is VERY hard to learn, partly because it is poorly documented (but wonderful compared to the iOs device I have!).

I have used a lot of drawing packages down the years (and loved Corel Draw - I have typeset books in it), but I would still use SU for roughing out designs, etc. as its learning curve is far shallower gradient than Inkscape.

And Inkscape is essentially 2D, not 3D, and that makes a big difference.


----------



## Robbo60

Try Alistair Johnson at Freebird interiors


Roberto Flintofski said:


> I've recently tried Sketch Up and condenser myself quite pc literate and quick to learn ! However I'm struggling like hell with it ...


I am too but watch this. It shows you how to design a carcase and as we all know a box is the basis for many things. I got this and just watched part 2 but haven't tried to emulate it.


----------



## billw

Eric The Viking said:


> PS: Woodworking SU models aren't very big (filesize), so once you start on real projects, don't be afraid to save several copies: "hall_table_1, hall_table_2, etc. You can always delete stuff you no longer need, but sometimes it saves you from over-writing something you need to keep with a version that later turns out to be a mistake.



DEFINITELY do this! I've saved myself so much time by being able to go back to a previous version that I knew was OK after making a mess of things.


----------



## MikeK

Like Roger and Eric stated, I make every cut piece a component in SU. When I build drawers using the component sides, ends, and bottom panel, I make the drawer assembly a component. This is handy for me when I have lots of drawers that are the same size. If I make a change to a sub-component that I want to apply to all of the drawers, I modify the component, and the change is applied immediately to all of the affected components.

One of the few times I use groups, is when I have several drawers in a carcass and I want to be able to move them in and out of the carcass while keeping the spacing and alignment between the drawers.


----------



## Eric The Viking

I think that is the first useful application of groups I have come across. 

Of course, I should get out more...


----------



## Dovetaildave

SketchUp


SketchUp users are architects, designers, builders, makers and engineers. They are the people who shape the physical world. They are important, and they dese...




www.youtube.com





I have learned enough from the link to teach students myself.

All our files are first drawn in SU and exported either 2 or 3D.

opened in cura is 3D and require printing.
opened in coreldraw if 2D for laser cutting.
Regards,
Dave


----------



## Peri

At the mo, Inventor HSM - only because I teach it at work. Reading this, SU sounds like it might be better suited for my simple carpentry projects.


----------



## AJB Temple

I'm very much in two minds about this. Although I am very computer literate and have dabbled with SU briefly a few years ago, for the things I have made in the last few years I find I can do a scale drawing more quickly than using sketch up. Part of the frustration here is printing for use out in my workshop (which moves around currently due to my projects). At home I only have an A4 laser jet, whereas I can use A2 or A3 on a board. 

This year I've largely made an entire quite large kitchen, including making all cabinetry, a 5 metre Island, some oak framing, two solid oak external doors, two internal sliding doors, roof strengthening, two insulated loft hatches etc. The oak framed cabinets were laid out on the stone floor in chalk and sketched on paper. Construction of cupboards is very simple and I just measure in situ and cut. I've done quite a bit of framing and I just visualise joints and mark up directly with the timber. I don't think I had any dimension errors. Just one leg where I cut the joints incorrectly (made it as a centre leg with three mortices - it was supposed to be a corner with two). 

Now I have to make 22 drawers for the kitchen and 18 more for the utility (just doing kitchen for now) plus 9 cupboard doors. There are a handful of different drawer depths and widths, but basically they are all just boxes and I can't really see the advantage of a SU print of something that has only three critical dimensions. 

I'm willing to invest some time in learning SU properly, if I could see what I am going to gain from the investment. I can't help thinking there must be lots of templates out there that can be just adapted with very little work? I know guys like Mike K are really good with this stuff - how long does it take to learn?


----------



## Spectric

Hi

In previous design jobs I used Catia, Autocad, a little solidworks and many specialised packages like Orcad and ICAP but in woodworking I use hand drawn sketchs. For layouts and where there are complex angles and potential footprint issues I use Qcad, a simple 2D cad package and sometimes Mathcad for more numerical issues.


----------



## Spectric

Forgot to mention that in metalwork a CAD drawing can be essential as you can send it to a metal cutting shop for laser cutting and they just cut it out of sheet steel for you, and if you want many items cut their software will maximise the number you can get from a sheet. It also cuts all the stud holes when I used it for items like exhaust manifold headers and adaptor plates for transmissions, send the drawing and collect that afternoon.


----------



## MikeK

AJB Temple said:


> I know guys like Mike K are really good with this stuff - how long does it take to learn?



You are too kind, but I think I am still a novice at SU, and it is a perishable skill. I had a lot of AutoCAD experience with 2D engineering drawings, but SU is my first attempt at 3D. I was making simple cabinets in about 30 minutes the first time I used SU.

Everything I learned came from YouTube, mostly from Justin Geis, The SketchUp Essentials. Justin has hundreds of short videos that go into detail on every feature of SU, including the free Make 2017 version that I use.









TheSketchUpEssentials


This channel is dedicated to bringing valuable SketchUp lessons and tutorials to help people have fun with 3D modeling! I started using SketchUp a few years ...




www.youtube.com





I was able to model my shop, with all of the equipment, in about four hours. This included baselining the footprint, searching the 3D Warehouse for the 1:1 SU models for as much of the equipment as I could find, and going back to the SU tutorials to determine how to do something I had forgotten. I already finished the miter saw workstation, so I was able to import it as a component into the shop layout. As a result of seeing how it fit in the model, I made a few adjustments to the workstation to make the shop less cramped.

When I decided to make a mobile MFT-style workbench, I created a SU model. I think the workbench took me two hours to create, and another two hours, or so, to modify it by adding more drawers and surface support beams.

Here is the SU model of my workbench, not including the wheels, sliding shelves and drawers on the side, or the drawer fronts for the end drawers.








Here is the actual workbench as of two hours ago. I still have a lot of work to do, such as make the holes in the Valchromat top, but I was able to make changes to the design with SketchUP before buying more plywood or aluminum extrusion. Please excuse the clutter in the basement. It is also a work in progress. 






The original design had three full width drawers on the end, at 100mm, 150mm, and 212mm high. Over the weekend, I changed my mind and made three 100mm high drawers and one 150mm high drawer. After another inventory of the things I know I will put in the drawers, I need three 100mm high drawers. I only had three sets of 500mm full-extension drawer slides, so I ordered more today and pre-drilled the holes for the slides. 

I installed the 400mm full-extension drawer slides at the bottom along the side openings, since these were easy to install while the partitions were out. When I figure out which tools I want in the workbench, I can add the remaining slides.


----------



## billw

So that begs the question, should you use SU for rough ideas or absolute exact piece by piece work?


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## AJB Temple

That is a quick scoot up the learning curve Mike. Impressed. Lovely job of the table. Looks beautifully engineered. 

I presume the other apertures are for sustainers? Do they take special drawer runners? There appears to be some sort of cut out on the front of my systainer boxes, and the new boxes have a wider one.


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## MikeK

billw said:


> So that begs the question, should you use SU for rough ideas or absolute exact piece by piece work?


I use SU for complex exact work when tolerances are critical, or as critical as they can be with wood. I also use paper if I'm building something I've done before and know where the critical collision points are. I have an A3 desktop drafting table when I need it; otherwise, I sketch by hand with a straight edge.


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## Sean33

Roberto Flintofski said:


> I've recently tried Sketch Up and condenser myself quite pc literate and quick to learn ! However I'm struggling like hell with it ...


Likewise, not sure if its because the pc we have is a mac as the boss is a photographer or just me but can't even get the thing to stay in mm or cm, change it in settings and still works in inches, If i do manage to drawer something, copy and paste, no chance..Spent countless hours trying to work it out to no avail...


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## MikeK

AJB Temple said:


> That is a quick scoot up the learning curve Mike. Impressed. Lovely job of the table. Looks beautifully engineered.
> 
> I presume the other apertures are for sustainers? Do they take special drawer runners? There appears to be some sort of cut out on the front of my sustainer boxes, and the new boxes have a wider one.



Thank you!

The apertures on the sides are 430mm wide (405mm between the drawer slides), which is perfect for the Systainer T-Loc on an open shelf. With the exception of the VAC SYS, all of my Festool tools are T-Loc. The VAC SYS is the original container with the side locks.

I haven't built the shelves yet, but they will be 19mm plywood rectangles with four recesses for the Systainer feet. Gravity will do the rest. There are three bays on each side with 550mm from bottom to top. I might put small drawers on the top of each bay for tools and leave the rest open for Systainers.

The newer Systainer 3 supposedly accepts slides on the container for vehicle use. I'm happy with the T-Loc containers.


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## MikeK

Sean33 said:


> Likewise, not sure if its because the pc we have is a mac as the boss is a photographer or just me but can't even get the thing to stay in mm or cm, change it in settings and still works in inches, If i do manage to drawer something, copy and paste, no chance..Spent countless hours trying to work it out to no avail...



I use a Late 2009 iMac (also a photgrapher) and am using SU Make 2017. Are you setting the SU preferences? This is a global setting, and I have never changed it since I installed SU.


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## Jelly

Spectric said:


> And sometimes Mathcad for more numerical issues.



I'm mildly jealous, I have to resort to excel solver or clunky VBA macros these days.

Never rated MathCAD when I had access to it, but now I miss it.




Spectric said:


> Forgot to mention that in metalwork a CAD drawing can be essential as you can send it to a metal cutting shop for laser cutting and they just cut it out of sheet steel for you.



Being able to send files out to the profilers without first having to actually produce a drawing I'm 100% certain constrains all the critical dimensions was definitely a game changer...

Although actually the most useful thing I've done with model based G&DT was communicating the specification of a custom milling cutter I had ground to cut a spline profile in a single pass; I could not have fully communicated that with my hand drafting skills.


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## Jonm

Design of my house I had paper cut outs to scale of the rooms which I moved about to get a general layout which I then computed and printed on to paper and refined. Basically I used paper and pencil for the “design” but computer for the drafting and drawing production for planning and building control. Layout of sloping drive, retaining walls, long and cross sections all done by hand but with drafting done on the computer then printed and refined.

Simple things like a box I would probably draw directly on the computer to get the cutting sizes, mainly because it is quicker than doing it by hand and means it does not matter if I lose the paper.

My computer program is an old piece of software which runs on XP. I therefore have VirtualBox on my computer with XP running in it. Works well, drawing files are stored on the main operating system so they get backed up and I can print them, email them etc. XP sits in its own “box” with no connection to the internet so no risk of viruses. Works well, virtually seamless, with XP opening in a Window just like all the other programs. 

I use the old software because I am used to it and it does everything I want.


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## Jonm

Sean33 said:


> Likewise, not sure if its because the pc we have is a mac as the boss is a photographer or just me but can't even get the thing to stay in mm or cm, change it in settings and still works in inches, If i do manage to drawer something, copy and paste, no chance..Spent countless hours trying to work it out to no avail...


I have a Mac and run Windows XP in VirtualBox. You could do the same and use a later version of Windows and a windows version of your drafting program. Virtual box is free and it did not take me long to set it up, probably a few hours, but don’t ask me any questions about it, I followed the instructions and looked things up on the internet but only did it the once.

It works great, log in to Mac and I can open Windows XP as a window just like any other program, seamlessly switch between the two. Design files are located in the Mac part of the computer, so printing, emailing drawing are all done using Mac OS.


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## Spectric

Jelly said:


> I'm mildly jealous, I have to resort to excel solver or clunky VBA macros these days.



Hi The VBA programing language may not be in the same league as a proper compiled language like C or Pascal but it can be very helpful when handling large CSV files. I have a VBA script that imports a navigation CSV file from a GPS in BNG format, converts to WGS84 Lat and Lon before using the OSGB15 conversion to deliver a much more accurate BNG location on a map.


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## Jelly

Spectric said:


> Hi The VBA programing language may not be in the same league as a proper compiled language like C or Pascal but it can be very helpful when handling large CSV files. I have a VBA script that imports a navigation CSV file from a GPS in BNG format, converts to WGS84 Lat and Lon before using the OSGB15 conversion to deliver a much more accurate BNG location on a map.



Curiously enough, it was doing the opposite transformation which was the first thing I used VBA for...

A friend who work in computing described VBA as 

"_Rarely the best solution, but often a fast and adequate one... The expanding foam of programming languages if you will._"​​Which sums it up nicely, it's often a practical solution for me but I'd much rather use one of the languages which has a well documented, dedicated solver libraries for simultaneous and differential equations, and numerical methods.


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## Spectric

A good way of describing it, it is apart from Delphi the only OOP language I use, most of my programing was in control systems, power supplies and powertrain where C is the language of choice for embeded and firmware uses especially when you need safe C certification.


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## galleywood

Does anyone feel qualified to make a SketchUp guide 'sticky'?


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## pe2dave

galleywood said:


> Does anyone feel qualified to make a SketchUp guide 'sticky'?


A concern with this idea, good though it is.
If you sift the youtube examples, you'll find them out of date (version) with the current offering.

I'm guessing with the rate of development, SU will have many changes, so any guide must
make it clear this is for revision x.y for it to stand a chance?
(Just my experience of using SU examples / tutorials)


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## billw

It would be easy(ier) to do for SU Make since that's no longer being updated. I find it so much easier to use than the web based version too.


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## Sean33

Thanks Jonm, i will have a go at that


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## Sean33

MikeK said:


> I use a Late 2009 iMac (also a photgrapher) and am using SU Make 2017. Are you setting the SU preferences? This is a global setting, and I have never changed it since I installed SU.
> 
> View attachment 96149


To be honest with you i can't even find how to download make 17 version, complete technophobe when it comes to this so been playing with SU free, continually change to mm but always reverts to inches, drives me mad!


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## billw

Sean33 said:


> To be honest with you i can't even find how to download make 17 version, complete technophobe when it comes to this so been playing with SU free, continually change to mm but always reverts to inches, drives me mad!







__





Downloading older versions | SketchUp Help


Click on the appropriate links below to get started. We offer downloads to the last two major versions of SketchUp Pro:




help.sketchup.com


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## billw

Also, you can change the measurements in settings so it always opens in mm. I'm sure someone posted a link to a video walking you through the exact steps.


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## Sean33

billw said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Downloading older versions | SketchUp Help
> 
> 
> Click on the appropriate links below to get started. We offer downloads to the last two major versions of SketchUp Pro:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> help.sketchup.com


thanks billw, much appreciated


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## Sean33

H


billw said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Downloading older versions | SketchUp Help
> 
> 
> Click on the appropriate links below to get started. We offer downloads to the last two major versions of SketchUp Pro:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> help.sketchup.com


hi Bill, did i mention that i am rather a technophobe, clicked on the link, downloaded but seems to be sketch up pro and a free 30 day trial, probably me being stupid but does that sound right to you ?


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## DBT85

The basics required for sketchup woodworking should be fairly standard no matter the version.


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## billw

Sean33 said:


> H
> 
> hi Bill, did i mention that i am rather a technophobe, clicked on the link, downloaded but seems to be sketch up pro and a free 30 day trial, probably me being stupid but does that sound right to you ?



There's three sections on the page, SketchUp Pro 2020 at the top, then Sketchup Pro 2019, then Sketchup Make 2017 - it's the last one you need (choose either PC or Mac depending on what you use).


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## MikeK

Sean33 said:


> H
> 
> hi Bill, did i mention that i am rather a technophobe, clicked on the link, downloaded but seems to be sketch up pro and a free 30 day trial, probably me being stupid but does that sound right to you ?



It's been a while since I downloaded it, but I think you have the pro version for 30 days. After the 30-day period ends, it reverts to the free version automatically. You don't have to do anything different, but you will lose access to any of the features that are unique to the pro version. I have no idea what those differences are, since I only use the free version.


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## SamTheJarvis

I can only think in sketchup these days. The ability to tweak a design, adjust component dimensions and adjust colours etc. on the fly is too handy for the design workflow. Quicker iteration = better product. Plus modelling parts often follows a similar process as to how they would be built, at least with regards to machine processes, so it almost serves as a dry-run to building it (sometimes even in the specific order of machine operations).


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## Sean33

billw said:


> There's three sections on the page, SketchUp Pro 2020 at the top, then Sketchup Pro 2019, then Sketchup Make 2017 - it's the last one you need (choose either PC or Mac depending on what you use).


Hi Bill, i did click on the bottom one the 2017 version, MikeK has posted an interesting point that maybe i have the pro version for 30 days, then it'll revert to the make 17, hopefully it will and thanks for the link as i spent a good few hours trying to find it !


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## Sean33

MikeK said:


> It's been a while since I downloaded it, but I think you have the pro version for 30 days. After the 30-day period ends, it reverts to the free version automatically. You don't have to do anything different, but you will lose access to any of the features that are unique to the pro version. I have no idea what those differences are, since I only use the free version.


Hi MikeK, thanks for this, ill tinker with it and see what happens in 30 days.


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## billw

Sean33 said:


> Hi Bill, i did click on the bottom one the 2017 version, MikeK has posted an interesting point that maybe i have the pro version for 30 days, then it'll revert to the make 17, hopefully it will and thanks for the link as i spent a good few hours trying to find it !



Ah, apologies I don't recall that happening when I got mine but heyho! I think the big difference for me was that 2017 is software downloaded to your PC, and the newer versions are web-based. Now I'm quite probably wrong about this, but locally bases software seems to be much easier to control (e.g. keystrokes and combinations) than web-based software that relies on how keystrokes are interpreted by a browser.

I tried using the "modern" version of SU but when I got the downloaded version I found it way easier to use.


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## J-G

I have both 2017 and 2014 installed and, as far as I can tell, 2014 is the last version that is truly 'Free' to use and I find easier - not that I've done a lot in 2017, I'm just very comfortable with 2014.

2017 was installed at the behest of a.n.other because he wanted a file in that format but in fact 2017 can read 2014 files and 2017 can 'save as' a 2014 version so there is no issue with compatibility and file transfer. The only thing that occasionally flags up an irritation is that the 3D warehouse no longer supports 2014 so you need to jump through a hoop to find .dae format files if you need to use images created by someone else to speed up a project where your own design or drawing would take longer than the effort warrants. I've used about 5 such files over the past 4 years.


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## BHwoodworking

i have 2 ways.

little project, such as a planter or something like that, i have a pen and pad, with scribbled on diamensions

big ones, e.g. bbq shelter, skechup, just to work out proportions and how much timber needed.


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## Snettymakes

Whilst I would prefer to use something like Fusion360, I use Shapr3D on the iPad with an Apple Pencil. It's really nice to be able to use something on the iPad as I can tinker with designs whilst watching TV in the evening. Much easier to show get approval from the wife as well rather than traipsing out to the office.

I don't rate the software much, it's expensive for the pro package, it's not very intuitive, and is not parametric (which is a real pain, and breaks my software engineer brain). But the workflow of the iPad and the pencil make up for that in spades imo.

On the subject of CAD, I've seen massive benefit in being able to visualise designs for myself, but also for other people who's observations improve the design. My wife and I have come up with a rather elegant solution for our under stairs storage which would not have been possible without CAD. Rapid iteration is the key to finessed designs imo.

Workshop furniture, something rustic, or similar I won't bother with CAD, for the most part the design will be in my head, maybe with a pencil drawing for dimension reference (juggling dimensions in my head generally results in milling mistakes).


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## Amateur

Old school.
Draw it up full size.
Sometimes make a mock up or prototype from softwood depending what it is I'm making.
I find perspective can be judged better than sketch up which I have used, and a full size drawing can be used as a rod. Invaluable for marking out dimensions quickly and checking components.

I always relate to the 737 max which, had a mock up been done they would have realised the engines were too high and too far forward. Mock ups are an invaluable tool.
Additional cost is another thing.



But what do I know


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## Spectric

LFS19 said:


> I’ve never really got into it, but everyone seems to be using sketch up these days.


Not everyone!

I use Qcad, a 2D CAD package that does what I need, ideal for getting accurate drawings for things like built up profiles and proving fag packet ideas. But rather than spend to much time drawing I prefer to just rough sketch and then get into making it.


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## Sporky McGuffin

Pencil and paper to explore a basic concept, then Rhino3D for more exact work, weird joints and details and do on. To me, CAD is part of the enjoyment. I also have a little CNC machine I bought for guitar making, but now mostly use for jig components. Or surfacing really nastily grained timber.


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## Sandyn

My body came with built in 3D software, still running on version 1, I use Notpad (the original version) with Pencil V1. I'm more an 'organic designer, I just make things up as I go along.


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## Spectric

LFS19 said:


> but everyone seems to be using sketch up these days.


Not everyone, often you need a scribble on paper, once upon a time known as fag packet drawings. I cannot get on with Sketchup, have used Catia, Autocad and Solidworks in the past but for me Sketchup is to graphical and not technical enough so when needed I use Qcad pro which is great.


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## Adam W.

I use pen and paper and enjoy the skill and difficulty involved. I also get a lot out of looking at a well executed drawing on paper.

I also have a bit of a pencil and compass fetish.


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## Jameshow

My men's shed chaps say it's all in my head and have a good laugh at me! if I had a drawing then the guys would still argue over the the interpretation of the dwg! 

Btw does an ariondack chair have a curved or straight back?!!! 

Cheers James


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## Sandyn

Jameshow said:


> Btw does an ariondack chair have a curved or straight back?!!!


Check the drawing!!


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## JoshD

I'm pretty much part of the pencil and paper brigade myself these days, although I did use CAD for a steel-framed unit I made, where the ability to create layers etc really was invaluable. But one thing nobody has mentioned is using isometric paper, which I find tremendously useful for producing quasi 3d drawing with accurate (sort of) dimensions.


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## Jacob

2B for face and edge marks or any marks on rough sawn
HB for general notes on wood or paper, design work on paper etc
2H for the rod and for marks on planed timber,
If you buy 3 different brands then you can have different colour for each grade, saves confusion.
Drawing board, T square, set square, rubber, compasses, various plastic stencils, draughting tape, clips
Occasional pen use for posh drawings.
Cheap paper - flip chart pads
Had a go with sketchup but felt that I'd have to be very competent to reach the point where the program itself wasn't in charge of what I could do. But in any case the thing has to be turned back into pencil marks on wood so you might as well start with a pencil from the beginning.


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## hlvd

Jacob said:


> 2B for face and edge marks or any marks on rough sawn
> HB for general notes on wood or paper, design work on paper etc
> 2H for the rod and for marks on planed timber,
> If you buy 3 different brands then you can have different colour for each grade, saves confusion.
> Drawing board, T square, set square, rubber, compasses, various plastic stencils, draughting tape, clips
> Occasional pen use for posh drawings.
> Cheap paper - flip chart pads
> Had a go with sketchup but felt that I'd have to be very competent to reach the point where the program itself wasn't in charge of what I could do. But in any case the thing has to be turned back into pencil marks on wood so you might as well start with a pencil from the beginning.


Exactly how I was taught in school and technical college, it’s a shame they don’t teach it anymore.


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## hlvd

I need to see a project in my mind first, can spin it around like you would on CAD, try different variations, then once I know what it’ll look like I’ll make a rough diagram on paper with all the necessary dimensions, time’s money when you do it for a living.


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## J-G

I use SketchUp along side CorelDRAW! -- both have their use, one to get the 'spacial' aspects in order and the other for the detailed workshop drawings which now-a-days includes creation of CNC drawings which can't be created from pencil & paper images 

It does depend upon the job in hand of course but most of my work involves complex interaction of many components such as clocks, though my current project is a 1/12th scale Grand Piano with MP3 player (ie. a music box).

Here's a screen-shot showing the two programs with the piano drawings 'live'.





The big advantage of getting to grips with any computer based CAD program is that you can test 'ideas' and sort out potential problems before committing real materials, but there is also the option to 'scale up' the view so that it becomes easy to see the difference that even 0.1mm can make ---- the black keys on the piano are 1.1mm thick and some of the white keys have 0.6mm or 0.8mm rebates!


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## Spectric

J-G said:


> The big advantage of getting to grips with any computer based CAD program is that you can test 'ideas' and sort out potential problems before committing real materials,


Yes that is how I use Qcad, a 2D program but you can get an extension so it produces files for CNC. By having a library of router cutter profiles I can work out combinations to make stacked mouldings and such before buying the cutter or doing trial runs on actual timber. If anyone wants a library of Infinity 17th and 19th century profiles then feel free to ask.


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## accipiter

I've enjoyed reading all the comments in this topic. Been very interesting.

I've always liked the idea of using a CAD program over the years when I came to computers - 1995? - and have 'played' at times but not persevered, time to learn in depth has been the problem. Pencil & paper have been easier for an initial idea then a rough design, sizes etc., but mostly I *see* what I'm wanting to create in my mind - and adapt as I go along. Started that way - pencil sketch etc., back at school in the early/mid 1960's so it's been hard to adapt... much as I've wanted to and tried.

That said I did come across some videos on Sketchup on YT by "Kings Fine Woodworking" giving some instructions on using it making it seem quite "easy". I downloaded the Sketchup 2017 version (as it's free) and have had a play. I still *like* the idea of using such but I'm not sure I've the *time* to learn on the computer when it's the old way of pencil & paper that's the quickest (for me).


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## Wildman

RogerP said:


> Another for pencil and paper - sometimes I even use a ruler.


or a rule, unless the odd king is available, ha ha ha


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## Wildman

Eric The Viking said:


> Exactly the same for me - SketchUp lets me test designs before diving in, saving both mistakes and materials.
> 
> For example, I had a shock recently when I realised that for the interior doors I'm planning to make, I can save about seven feet of stock by using dominoes instead of traditional mortice and tenon joints. That's _per door_, and I have a dozen of them to make. It means the dominoes will pay for themselves and the construction will be much simpler as a consequence. Of course, if I was more experienced I'd know this already (and I'd already have a story stick, too), but I'm not. Seeing it as 3D objects really helped in construction decisions.
> 
> Of course I rough stuff out with pencil and paper (weapon of choice is a 3B or 4B pencil), but my measurements come from SU, as do the plans usually, and I can quickly get sections through a 3D object, to see if there are issues such as clearances that will cause problems.
> 
> Two more recent examples:
> 
> I've got to make a strong storage box for castoring legs for a tower scaffold system. These things are three feet long (roughly), very unbalanced (weight at one end), tubular and greasy. But they are also fragile and a safety-critical component. And I need space to store small parts for the toeboard brackets, etc. I won't be using it - it belongs to the church my wife attends - so things have to pack-in intuitively. So I've drawn out a castor column to scale, and copied it four times. These objects I can just move around in 3D until I get a practical arrangement.
> 
> I'm refurbishing a motorbike fuel tank, by stripping paint and rust from the inside and re-coating it. It's big and will be pretty heavy when it's full of chemicals. I'm making a jig to hold it, allowing it to rotate for agitation and invert for draining out. I can't afford to drop it (no dents presently) nor splash chemicals on the outer paint finish. So again, modelling it and the jig lets me see if ideas will work.
> 
> I've also played with drill press table designs, etc. Again, I picked up on problems where the quill three-handled drive would foul parts of the table, and issues fixing it to the press's existing circular table, for which I think I now have a neat solution.
> 
> I could do all of this without SU, but nowadays it's my go-to aid for thinking through design problems.
> 
> . . .
> 
> The biggest tip I was given, incidentally, is to make every object you create a "component", as soon as you draw it out - cubes, cylinders, whatever. That way you can control how they interact with other parts of the model (you can always combine them later on). The ability to have clones of a component, such that changing one modifies all of them at the same time, is invaluable for things like table legs and other repeated components in a design. I use that a great deal too - it's automatic and very fast. Again you can turn this off quickly if you need to.
> 
> HTH, E.


I have often used floating tenons, don't have domino facilities as cannot justify it.


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## thikone

I use SketchUp because I can. I learnt how to use it well. I use pencil and paper up to my abilities to draw. I cannot match in accuracy of proportions using pencil. I don't use a ruler on paper because it is easier to go to SketchUp when accuracy and straightness is needed.

What was the question? How many can use SketchUp and how many cannot use a pencil?

For me it was easier to learn SketchUp than to master drawing with a pencil... 
It is hard to learn how to draw for most people, I think.
It is time consuming to draw in full size. Should be possible to print from SketchUp full size if needed.

Recently I mastered Fusion 360 and 3D printing. Next thing I want to try is to 3D print a miniature model in plastic with all mortises and tenons. How about that, old pencil?  I do envy those how can draw though, for some reason.

So, how many are very good at both, 3D modelling and drawing?


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## Oakay

Pre 1995 Drawing board
Pre 2002 approx Turbocad 2D
Pre 2010 Turbocad 3D
Pre 2011 Sketchup 8 (Google pre Trimble)
2012 to present FormZ pro which is a bit like sketchup without the need to make every object a group or component. Solids not surfaces. Wish I found it earlier but their marketing is almost non-existent.


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## Keith 66

When i was a D&T technician i got pretty proficent using 2d Design which is the drawing program used by 90% of schools in the UK. It had a few strange quirks such as the undo button would only work one time, not a lot of use if you balls up. It appears to be based on Qcad? Recent updates give unlimited undos & other improvements.
I have just got the new version as i know it already & dont want to have to learn a new set up!


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## Spectric

With the rate of technological advance it probably won't be that long before we see virtual reality entering hobby woodworking but for me at my age I am more than happy with 2D.



Keith 66 said:


> I have just got the new version as i know it already & dont want to have to learn a new set up!


Do you mean Qcad, I find it meets my needs well and at a good price. I use it more to help visualise things rather than complete items such as how combined mouldings will look, deciding what radius will look right on something but also room layouts to see how things will fit. It is very precise so I can take a dimension from the drawing and use it to set my router table cutter which ensures parts later fit without the unexpected.


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## Pedronicus

Has to be drawing board and associated gubbins for me as well like wot I used to use designing large heating & a/c systems. Tickled us when CAD was in it's infancy and the artichoke's drawings showed dimensions to 2 decimal places e.g 1112.16cm instead of 1110cm. Like the contractors were going to build to to those tolerances!


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## bspokespaces

I have used Sketchup for some years now. I specialise in designing and making bespoke alcove cabinets and floating shelving. Drawing everything within a given space, carcasses, doors, drawers and shelving will confidently produce something that will fit. During the build and when fitting the furniture on site.
Although it does take time to create the drawings it will give you an accurate cutting list and save on wastage. As some of the other respondents have said. It depends on what you are intending to make.
For years, Sketchup has had a free version but stopped the downloadable version in 2017. Their free version now is available to use when connected to the internet. The original pre-2017 version and the online version screen layout and tool icons are quite different which is very annoying if you've spent hours learning your way around the old one. To keep the old layout you have to pay; It's very expensive and you have to pay each year.
If your piece of furniture doesn't have to fit accurately into a space and provided you get your proportions right - hand drawing a design would be OK.


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## Jacob

bspokespaces said:


> ............
> If your piece of furniture doesn't have to fit accurately into a space and provided you get your proportions right - hand drawing a design would be OK.


Pencil and paper is perfectly accurate. The big issue is how you transfer your measurements to the workpiece. Pencil gives you the advantage of full size working drawings which is not possible with CAD unless you are near print shop or work in a big office.
And there are perfectly good ways to sort out cutting lists without computer assistance!


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## Kayen

LFS19 said:


> I’ve never really got into it, but everyone seems to be using sketch up these days.
> I’d be interested to know what other methods people use for design?
> 
> What alternatives to sketch up are there (paper methods or software) and is SU the best bet these days?
> 
> Cheers.


You haven't said in what capacity you are coming from?

If you're a hobbyist woodworker choose whichever you prefer.

If you're a professional woodworker taking on reasonably large and complex jobs, then SU is most definitely the way to go - there are no advantages to pencil and paper, but many with SU.


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## rogxwhit

It's a free world - but Sketchup or any other app is hardly necessary for the everyday design / make / install of furniture / joinery. A pencil sketch of a concept will be perfectly readable by and acceptable to a client, whilst also having a humanly organic quality. 

Equally, an A1 or larger drawing board is a nicely tactile thing to use for dimensioned working drawings. And it uses no electricity!

Each to their own ...


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## gcusick

Yojevol said:


> Fusion360 at $360/year?


No, Fusion360 at £0/year. Minor limitations, but generally insignificant.


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## Spectric

rogxwhit said:


> but Sketchup or any other app is hardly necessary for the everyday design


I suppose it depends upon the complexity but I think Sketchup is a visualisation tool for those who cannot draw like myself, I don't mean technical drawing but a picture representation of the intended object. For me just an easy 2D package like Qcad delivers what I need without a huge learning curve and spending more time on drawing an item than making it is not for me. I look at many aspects of furniture making as being creative and not technical, these items are made from the persons own vision and not from some drawing, it gives furniture individualism. This can also happen when people are using the same power tools because you then work within the tools capability, with a hand tool there are no limitations apart from your skills and vision.


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## Jarno

Used to be design engineer, so I still have a laptop with 3d modeling software (Creo Parametric). It is fantastic for 3d, but utterly useless for 2d. At our company, we used to have AutoCad LT for the 2d things, but the bean counters decided we could do without it. Luckily I also have Adobe Illustrator, which I used for labeling design and logo's, so I use that for 2d CAD now. And obviously pen(cil) and paper, should do more sketching though, it is good to do things away from the PC.


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## Reffc

Must admit I tried google sketch and found it took longer than hand drawing which may be down to my own ineptitude but being old fashioned, I always use pencil drawings for all of my designs and then pass them through the copier for use in the workshop. I find it easier to do one-off designs (which most of mine are) this way and correcting them means just a pencil and eraser are needed. In general, computers leave me cold and I find hand drawing more therapeutic. I do use specialist software for my speaker designs as it saves on pages of hand written calculations and it's a lot more accurate and quicker for things like passive crossover design providing I input accurate raw driver measurement files first. I guess horses for courses. Computer simulation of electro-acoustical response is one area where I wouldn't be without computers or software these days but drawings I always do by hand.


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## Spectric

If you need 2D then take a look at Qcad, the base version is FREE and for about £30 you get the full version with great support and a forum to assist. I use it for laying out a room, drawing up cabinets and seeing if the design makes sense as well as underfloor heating loops to ensure they are the same length, it has the ability to give the total length of an entity.


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## sawtooth-9

Just put what's in your head onto a sketch on paper.
Pencil and paper.
You will quickly see what is important to your design.
Then I tend to see where I have gone wrong - and can correct before I cut wood or metal.
No need for computer design - which can be good, but why bother.
Real skill is translating a design from your head into a real physical object - a skill that is not valued today.


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## Just4Fun

Today I tried to use Sketchup for the first time in months. This is what I got:







I don't want to pay, so that rules out the "Buy online" and "Contact a local reseller" buttons. The "No thanks, Exit" button does what it says and closes SketchUp. That leaves the "I agree" button. Maybe I am stupid but I cannot understand what I would be agreeing to if I clicked that. Any ideas?


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## Jameshow

sawtooth-9 said:


> Just put what's in your head onto a sketch on paper.
> Pencil and paper.
> You will quickly see what is important to your design.
> Then I tend to see where I have gone wrong - and can correct before I cut wood or metal.
> No need for computer design - which can be good, but why bother.
> Real skill is translating a design from your head into a real physical object - a skill that is not valued today.


Yeap if it's complicated then I'll have a sketch or to show clients.


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## Reffc

sawtooth-9 said:


> Just put what's in your head onto a sketch on paper.
> Pencil and paper.
> You will quickly see what is important to your design.
> Then I tend to see where I have gone wrong - and can correct before I cut wood or metal.
> No need for computer design - which can be good, but why bother.
> Real skill is translating a design from your head into a real physical object - a skill that is not valued today.


Agree entirely. You should be able to practically visualise the whole design in your head. I find then making a sketch and translating that to accurate scale hand drawings once I'm happy that the design will work is the way to go. If I am unsure about geometry of any specific joint, I then practise on scrap until I have it sussed and ensure the drawings draw attention to any specific requirements including making a notes column to the side of the sketch. I work on A3 paper which is easier to work from and to show clients.


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## Allen Quay

Just4Fun said:


> Today I tried to use Sketchup for the first time in months. This is what I got:
> 
> View attachment 146891
> 
> 
> I don't want to pay, so that rules out the "Buy online" and "Contact a local reseller" buttons. The "No thanks, Exit" button does what it says and closes SketchUp. That leaves the "I agree" button. Maybe I am stupid but I cannot understand what I would be agreeing to if I clicked that. Any ideas?


Is SketchUp Make a different version to SketchUp Free? From your screenshot, I'm not sure what you'd be agreeing to, unless it's referring to the statement about SketchUp Make being potentially vulnerable to security issues, because it hasn't been updated since 2017? I'm just guessing though (based on the info available in the screenshot).


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## J-G

The only reason it might be 'vulnerable' would be because it wants to store you files on the 'cloud' rather than on your own PC. 

If you can find the 2014 version available to download, that has no such issues and is really FREE.


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## Bodone

A5 Black book and pencil For me - that way I can very quickly flick back and see how designs progress. Ie rough out sketch with rough sizes through to finish sketch with accurate dimensions and cutting list with bill of materials. Back of book for all working out/rough stuff and when happy/complete finish sketch at front of book, my sign off process.

For context, weekend hobbyist, but (part of) day job have gone from drawing board to 2D/3D/4D/VR/AR and whatever three letter acronym has been thrown at engineers over the last 40 years in everything from single components up to thousands of the bloody things. Other part of day job was working at these companies so I’ve access to Fusion/Catia/SWX/SE/NX and the people who write/manage what goes into them - still use black book.

If I was doing this for a living, or lots of repeat but slightly differing components/parts I’d take the time to put a workflow/parametric in place with CAD and If I had little or no experience I’d choose the one that had the best learning resources and accessible user base rather than one that had massive functionality.


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## Reffc

There is another reason I won't be beholding to any CAD software for my designs. firstly, a few years ago, we lost out main hard drive and back ups all within the same week, whilst the IT technician was trying to recover the hard drive, the back ups then failed (we used external WP hard drives)....10 years of CAD data down the drain! Secondly, I won't be beholding of any company that ransoms what you do after first offering a free software only to remove it and offer it online along with all the insidious tracking and data usage in a unique coded format that is not transferrable (I know not all are). 

There's a lot to be said for pencil, paper and good old fashioned technical drawing skills. imho we have all become far too reliant on computers and software and forgotten that it a tool not a creed. There's a fine line requiring decisions on information security and efficiency but accuracy can be assured with hand drawings if they are checked and you're systematic in the way you build up calcs and drawings. Others will have different views and larger scale working has the4se days become totally dependant upon machinery and software such as CNC.


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## Geriatrix

I am a SketchUp Make 2017 user. I can't hand draw or sketch well enough to even understand it myself a few days later so 3D CAD suits me for woodworking projects design and 3D printing. I'm not going to try and justify my choice, it just suits me and is a lot more powerful than I had realised in the early days. It doesn't take long to knock out a 3D design for an extraction adaptor which is such a handy function although it takes a lot longer to print it.
You can still download SketchUp Make 2017 from SketchUp Make 2017 
Installation is the same as any other Windows software. Every time you run this version of SketchUp, you are presented with the opening screen shown below. Simply select the "Start Using SketchUp" button in the bottom right and you are up and running.


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## Spectric

Reffc said:


> There is another reason I won't be beholding to any CAD software for my designs. firstly, a few years ago, we lost out main hard drive and back ups all within the same week,


Don't think me hard but this does not sound like a good backup when it comes to digital asset management. I have seen to many people almost in tears having lost their work due to failure of IT equipment and when asked about backups just look blankly at you. 

If you are producing anything in a digital format, be it a story book, a technical manual or software then it takes time, your time which has a value and you should value this data as if it was a solid object sitting on the table next to you. A good backup system will require multiple storage devices, I do not consider " The cloud " to be one of them. The more storage devices and the higher the frequency of backups the less data you will lose so think of how much you value your data.

As a minimum you want to save anything you are working on to a pen drive during the time you are on the Pc, every hour is ok. Then backup your entire workdrive every week, using at least three storage devices. Week 1 to device 1, week 2 to device 2 and week 3 to device 3, on week 4 you overwrite device 1 and then repeat this cycle. 

If your data is extremely valuable then you should have a RAID array in the Pc so all the data is mirrored and many more backup devices with some stored securely away from your place of work just in case you have a fire. If you want an extra layer of protection then backup your data to a server with a raid array within where you are working as well. Big companies will mirror data to many off site secure backup servers and run expensive backup solutions because they know the value of interlectural property and the time taken to produce.


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## Reffc

You're not being harsh at all as we ought to have backed up to the cloud. I took the decision after we lost that data that I was not entrusting the future of our small business to the internet, that I wanted all our current design data kept in paper back ups on site and that is what we do. That suits us where it wouldn't suit a larger business where efficiencies can be had for investing time especially in repetitive manufacturing jobs which are more computerised (CNC being the obvious example where you need to archive dxf format drawing data in case you need it again). In principle, as soon as you entrust your precious data to someone else, you lose some control over it. It only takes a server to go down and you're stuffed. In 10 years this has happened twice with our server provider, so we upgraded that several years ago and now our website and marketing is safeguarded but I do not trust online storage any more than I trust external hard drives locally. We now renew our external drives every two years and keep multiple back ups for all historic projects but all new work and designs are done on paper and archived locally so we keep hard records of everything and that suits us fine. I can't afford to lose such valuable data again and this way the risks of doing so are almost non existent.


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## Spectric

I have used Western digital black drives and never had one go down, I am still on the fence with the solid state drives.


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## Reffc

Spectric said:


> I have used Western digital black drives and never had one go down, I am still on the fence with the solid state drives.


It was one of their 1tB external hard drives that I had fail Roy. It was used for about 8 years and the advice I received is many hard drives, WD ones included, should be replaced every 4 to 5 years as reliability can be sketchy longer term. Our local GP had two of them fail within 18 months of new. Many no doubt go on many years longer but once bitten...SS drives I think can be just as risky but prices are coming down all the time. We use WD Elements SS drives now and they've been very fast and very reliable so far. We're a few years in now on our last one so will be replacing it next year. They're quite inexpensive at £30 to £40 for the 1TB ones so in terms of cost/year about a tenner for peace of mind per year.


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