# New Veritas plane UKW exclusive announcement



## Martin Brown (20 Nov 2008)

Dear everyone

Please forgive for a commercial post, however I am sure this will be of interest to forum members.

On Monday morning we will be announcing a new plane from Veritas. Please log on for more information then.

If you are a very keen plane collector, I suggest you have your credit card to hand.

Please note I am unable answer PMs as I am away from my laptop this weekend.

Martin


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## Paul Chapman (20 Nov 2008)

8) 8)


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## TrimTheKing (20 Nov 2008)

Oooooh, new toy!

Me like shiny things 

Mark


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## wizer (20 Nov 2008)

Oh he IS a tease, but I like him! 8)


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## Philly (20 Nov 2008)

You are going to like this very much-trust me :wink: 
Philly


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## Martin Brown (20 Nov 2008)

Insert laugh from dog featured in wacky races.


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## woodbloke (20 Nov 2008)

According to Mike Hancock's email letter from CHT wot I was having a perusal of last night, there will be *two* new planes announced on the 24th iIrc... :-k - Rob


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## tnimble (20 Nov 2008)

Yep and more to come! 8) :roll:


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## lurker (20 Nov 2008)

Martin Brown":11770qgp said:


> Insert laugh from dog featured in wacky races.



Muttley


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## woodbloke (20 Nov 2008)

The long departed Alf has just received a package, she recommends keeping up the fluid levels to replace the drool ...not giving much away though  - Rob


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## Lord Nibbo (20 Nov 2008)

Monday USA Time means I'm gonna be sat at my puter till lunch time waiting 






I notice Lee Valley website are teasing as well. :lol:


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## custard (20 Nov 2008)

Hmm, what kind of new block plane? Apart from a skew iron block plane I can't think what's missing from the Veritas block plane line-up. 

Incidentally, I've got the Lie Nielsen skew block plane, and although (IMO) it's very pretty I don't rate it that highly in practical use, mainly because if you take off the side plate then the toe section flexes, and the little fence is only secured on a single arm and isn't too stable.


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## Rob Lee (20 Nov 2008)

custard":1fi07f44 said:


> (snip)
> 
> ...skew block plane, and although (IMO) it's very pretty I don't rate it that highly in practical use, mainly because if you take off the side plate then the toe section flexes, and the little fence is only secured on a single arm and isn't too stable.



Hi - 

Our skew blocks are just coming out of design now... so they'll be 6-8 months yet... sorry - took awhile to get rid of the side plate, and integrate the adjustable mouth... bit tricky, that was... :shock: 

The Monday thing - well, we're not commenting on that...Dad hadn't even seen anything 'till last week...

Cheers - 

Rob


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## custard (20 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":wum7wen1 said:


> custard":wum7wen1 said:
> 
> 
> > (snip)
> ...



Curioser and curioser!


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## Lord Nibbo (20 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":fg1cj4w0 said:


> Hi -
> 
> Our skew blocks are just coming out of design now... so they'll be 6-8 months yet... sorry - took awhile to get rid of the side plate, and integrate the adjustable mouth... bit tricky, that was... :shock:
> 
> ...



Rob have you ever heard the term "Sh.t stirer" or even "pr.ck teaser" ? :wink: :lol:


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## Rob Lee (20 Nov 2008)

Lord Nibbo":1l0f2ebs said:


> Rob have you ever heard the term "Sh.t stirer" :wink: :lol:



Nope... :lol: 

Would I be one had I talked about the pre-prod small scraping plane that I held this morning??? :lol: 

Ta - 

Rob


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## Philly (20 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":1nch1qa8 said:


> Lord Nibbo":1nch1qa8 said:
> 
> 
> > Rob have you ever heard the term "Sh.t stirer" :wink: :lol:
> ...



Genius :lol: 
Philly


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## Aled Dafis (20 Nov 2008)

Mmmm. 

What would I give to work at LeeValley? 

Rob - How about opening a new R&D office down here in West Wales??? 
   
Cheers

Aled


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## Rob Lee (20 Nov 2008)

Aled Dafis":6lgzlp5t said:


> Mmmm.
> 
> What would I give to work at LeeValley?
> 
> ...



Hi Aled - 

Actually thought about it....but we couldn't find a location we could spell....

Rob
(master of the "duck and run")


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## Aled Dafis (20 Nov 2008)

How about - Aled's House, it's actually much easier to spell in welsh - Ty Aled

I'll start clearing some space.

Cheers

Aled


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## Rob Lee (20 Nov 2008)

Aled Dafis":1n8fo22a said:


> How about - Aled's House, it's actually much easier to spell in welsh - Ty Aled
> 
> I'll start clearing some space.
> 
> ...


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## Vann (20 Nov 2008)

Martin Brown":3n49r05s said:


> Dear everyone
> 
> Please note I am unable answer PMs as I am away from my laptop this weekend.
> 
> Martin



And I thought the whole purpose of the laptop was to enable the user to take it with them, wherever they go. Self imposed exile is what I would call it (to avoid 20,000 enquiring PMs)

:lol: Vann.


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## Mr Ed (20 Nov 2008)

Martin

Are you going to actually have these planes on Monday, or just the details of them?

Just wondering, in case I feel moved to purchase. :roll: 

Cheers, Ed


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## Rob Lee (20 Nov 2008)

EdSutton":ui6yhmdg said:


> Martin
> 
> Are you going to actually have these planes on Monday, or just the details of them?
> 
> ...



Hi - 

Somehow, we messed up and they actually have inventory, as does Carbatec in Australia....
:wink: 

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Mr Ed (20 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":1j2gli5y said:


> [Somehow, we messed up and they actually have inventory, as does Carbatec in Australia....
> :wink:
> 
> Cheers -
> ...



I see, so if a vigilante mob armed with Veritas plane blades was to head to Brimarc they might get a glimpse before Monday... :shock: (not that I would ever advocate such an action you understand, purely hypothetical  )

Cheers, Ed


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## dunbarhamlin (20 Nov 2008)

EdSutton":ou7l2ooc said:


> I see, so if a vigilante mob armed with Veritas plane blades was to head to Brimarc they might get a glimpse before Monday... :shock: (not that I would ever advocate such an action you understand, purely hypothetical  )
> 
> Cheers, Ed



Nope, nor would I
Though they are only about 600 yards from where I'm sitting at work right now...
(Frustratingly good thing Brimarc don't have a sales counter - lunchtimes could get really expensive)

[Edit - soto voce] Would the vigilante mob like me to hold their coats and furnish tea and biscuits?[/edit]


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## Vann (21 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":1a1ehema said:


> Somehow, we messed up and they actually have inventory, as does Carbatec in Australia....
> 
> Cheers -
> 
> Rob



...and Carbatec, Auckland, New Zealand?

I'll be up there next week picking up my MarkII honing guide.

Vann.

Wellington, NZ. 400 miles from the nearest Carbatec, but a lot further from Aussie, UK, or Canada.

ps I see on the Aussie woodwork forum that Derek is going to post a review (or similar) on Monday.


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## Rob Lee (21 Nov 2008)

Vann":2u0xkhv4 said:


> Rob Lee":2u0xkhv4 said:
> 
> 
> > Somehow, we messed up and they actually have inventory, as does Carbatec in Australia....
> ...



Hi Vann - 

Not sure how distribution works intenally at Carbatac - but I do know they pulled out all the stops committing to *whatever* on Monday, as well as the dovetail saw...

Supply is still a bit tight as it takes a lot of inventory to fill the pipeline...

Best bet is to give then a shout directly...

Cheers - 

Rob


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## tnimble (21 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":2ac6wdsy said:


> Supply is still a bit tight as it takes a lot of inventory to fill the pipeline...


Is there a pre-order the mystery tool program? Or should we start camping in front of the srores / computer?


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## Lord Nibbo (21 Nov 2008)

One day down, two to go :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (21 Nov 2008)

I saw Martin Brown at the D&M show today - he wasn't giving anything away  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Rknott2007 (21 Nov 2008)

Hope there are plenty available


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## Rob Lee (21 Nov 2008)

Rknott2007":1f6nhjs4 said:


> Hope there are plenty available



We don't plan to stop making 'em... :lol: 

Filling the distribution pipeline takes awhile (we've had 'em on the shelf for over a month) - and we've still only got display models in our own stores (locked up, of course). 

Then too - maybe nobody will want them .....

:shock: 

Cheers - 

Rob


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## wizer (21 Nov 2008)

yeh your probably right Rob, why don't you send me one to review? Then I can convince people they _need _one. Otherwise I'm really not sure they will sell _at all_.


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## Mr Ed (22 Nov 2008)

Interesting new banner appeared at the top of the UKWorkshop page...

Cheers, Ed


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## Paul Chapman (22 Nov 2008)

EdSutton":1pg028jh said:


> Interesting new banner appeared at the top of the UKWorkshop page...



Looks like it's a new Ferrari 8)


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## Paul Kierstead (22 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":1773m4au said:


> [
> Then too - maybe nobody will want them .....



That's ok, just lay 'em out on the sale table. Let me know when you do, though


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## Philly (23 Nov 2008)

Gloat Alert!!!!! Mine turned up in the post yesterday............ \/ 
Philly


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## Mr Ed (23 Nov 2008)

Philly":15pxwyit said:


> Gloat Alert!!!!! Mine turned up in the post yesterday............ \/
> Philly



Well as you know it doesn't count as a gloat without pictures (although I suspect you are not going to fall into this cunningly constructed trap! :lol: )

Cheers, Ed


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## Paul Chapman (23 Nov 2008)

Philly":1cd9iy3c said:


> Gloat Alert!!!!! Mine turned up in the post yesterday............ \/
> Philly



You can go off people......... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Enjoy it  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## BradNaylor (23 Nov 2008)

I don't use any tools that I can't plug in but even _I'm _getting curious!

Dan


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## Philly (23 Nov 2008)

I'm just amazed that they've managed to make a plane that works so well AND makes a fine cappuccino...  
Philly  
_Running for that door......_


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## Lord Nibbo (23 Nov 2008)

Philly":sl88460q said:


> I'm just amazed that they've managed to make a plane that works so well AND makes a fine cappuccino...
> Philly
> _Running for that door......_



Bog off you...... :wink: 

It's Monday in two hours in Australia, where's Derek then? come on Derek... :lol:


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## woodbloke (23 Nov 2008)

Rob...who's managed to keep remarkably quiet :wink: - Rob


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## Vann (23 Nov 2008)

Okay, it's Monday here in New Zealand (3.20am NZ Daylight Saving time as I write). So where's the pictures?

Surely we don't have to wait for the rest of the world to catch up? :evil: 

Blimey, by the time Rob's had his brekky and wandered down to the office to load up the website, it'll be Tuesday here :lol:  :lol: 

Cheers, Vann

_staggers back to bed...........yawn _

Oh, and that pipeline you're loading with the new stock Rob... Well it's apparently got a leak above Philly place 'cause one's dripped onto his workbench (lucky sod).


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## Rob Lee (23 Nov 2008)

Hi Vann - 

Just 20 hours or so to go.... :wink: 

How about the next one, we'll release in Australia/NZ first hmm???

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Vann (24 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":4uz6us81 said:


> How about the next one, we'll release in Australia/NZ first hmm???



An Australasian release sounds great Rob. And if Derek is too busy to review a pre-production model (you know, still staring in awe at the last one) I could have my arm twisted.... :wink: 

Cheers, Vann


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## Mr Ed (24 Nov 2008)

On Woodnet Rob has said between 7 and 8 EST, which is lunchtime-ish GMT....and I'm out on site this afternoon with no internet -  

Oh well, its only a plane :shock: 

Cheers, Ed


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## Martin Brown (24 Nov 2008)

Here are links to the press releases from Veritas, you may need to click to the larger size.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3027/305 ... d451_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/305 ... be04_o.jpg

For the launch Rutlands, Classic Hand Tools and Axminster will have very limited supplies. I will post links later on.

The prices will be £220 and £173 respectively.

Good luck.

Martin


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## wizer (24 Nov 2008)

http://www.axminster.co.uk/viewindex.as ... lanelaunch


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## Martin Brown (24 Nov 2008)




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## Martin Brown (24 Nov 2008)

[/img]


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## Philly (24 Nov 2008)

Take a look here for the Philly review :wink: 
Cheers
Philly


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## ByronBlack (24 Nov 2008)

Holy retro 50's styling batman!! I LIKE!


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## tnimble (24 Nov 2008)

The V logo is cool, I want it. ?Luckily? I still lack a low angle block plane.


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## TrimTheKing (24 Nov 2008)

Oooooooooooh, me likey mucho!!!

Now I need to decide, do I neeeeeeeed a second Veritas LA Block....... :? 

Mark


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## Bentham Andy (24 Nov 2008)

I don't want to appear as a party pooper but TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY QUID for a block plane from Veritas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:shock: :shock: :shock: 

Good Luck.


Andy


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## bugbear (24 Nov 2008)

Bentham Andy":2hpk37bs said:


> I don't want to appear as a party pooper but TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY QUID for a block plane from Veritas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



The whole point is that this plane is at a higher price point and build quality than previous Veritas tools - possible overkill quality, but some people like overkill, and will pay for it.

Think Toyota/Lexus if it helps.

BugBear


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## tnimble (24 Nov 2008)

bugbear":vcsv5e68 said:


> Bentham Andy":vcsv5e68 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to appear as a party pooper but TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY QUID for a block plane from Veritas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...



Exactly, if you don't want to spend the extra mony for the extra work that went into materials, quality of finish (that is not required per functionality) and design you can buy one of the other modal. Otherwise the NX60 goes nicely with the Veritas Stainless Steel 30 years Anniversary Edge Trimming plane and your tools from Bridge City, Holtey, S&S, ....




So far Classic Handtools have only added the cheap DX60 to their site


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## Bentham Andy (24 Nov 2008)

Thanks bugbear I think you may have hit the nail on the head there: 'The whole point is that this plane is at a higher price point...' However I am now looking forwards to Harrogate with added interest, providing the Land Cruiser doesn't break down on the way.

Andy


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## Paul Chapman (24 Nov 2008)

Very nice. 

With the material it's made from, it looks like Philly has, at last, found a plane that doesn't suffer from 'Rusty Finger Syndrome' 8) 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (24 Nov 2008)

Wow :shock: - I think they look fantastic. Having read Philly's review the standard offering LN looks positively mundane by comparison. It's probable a little unfair to put both side by side as the new Veritas is nearly twice the price - Rob


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## Mr Ed (24 Nov 2008)

From a specification point of view the new plane seems to tick all the boxes and the new material is certainly interesting.

I may be a lone voice on this, but the aesthetic is not something I immediately love. In Phillys pics, if you look beyond the shiny-ness of the new LV plane I actually prefer the appearance of the LN. I speak here as someone who likes the look of the other Veritas planes to date, so I'm not harking back to some historical reference point.

Performance wise I am sure its excellent, I would expect nothing less of Lee Valley. I'd love to try one, but as the owner of what I thought was an expensive block plane (LN 60.5) I'm not sure I can see me making another premium block plane purchase.

What I think is highly commendable is that there is a manufacturer out there who is prepared to make the investment in R&D to bring new premium products to the woodworking market, for which I salute you Rob Lee.

Cheers, Ed


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## tnimble (24 Nov 2008)

EdSutton":3cnas4qb said:


> I may be a lone voice on this, but the aesthetic is not something I immediately love. In Phillys pics, if you look beyond the shiny-ness of the new LV plane I actually prefer the appearance of the LN. I speak here as someone who likes the look of the other Veritas planes to date, so I'm not harking back to some historical reference point.


I'm with you on the DX60, but not for the NX60 (which should be in the mail shortly). I don't think the photo's in Phillys review do a lot of good to either of the planes. (sorry Phil) Especially the LN looks erhm a pity, could be due to bad lighting and/or from fingers-o-death.


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## frugal (24 Nov 2008)

I wonder if the black material is coated iron, or the funky composite that is used for the back of the dovetail saw that Philly reviewed.


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## Rob Lee (24 Nov 2008)

EdSutton":1mhgjwdn said:


> (snip)
> 
> What I think is highly commendable is that there is a manufacturer out there who is prepared to make the investment in R&D to bring new premium products to the woodworking market, for which I salute you Rob Lee.
> 
> Cheers, Ed



Hi Ed - 

Thanks for the kind comments... the designers will get them too...!

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Rob Lee (24 Nov 2008)

frugal":3fpmlyda said:


> I wonder if the black material is coated iron, or the funky composite that is used for the back of the dovetail saw that Philly reviewed.



Hi - 

The black version is our regular ductile iron... the black suface is a polyester based powder-coat paint.... very resistant to chipping and wear...

I don't think we'll ever have the nerve to injection mold planes...

... at least....

... not for awhile....

:lol: :lol: :lol: 


Cheers - 

Rob


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## Paul Chapman (24 Nov 2008)

It will be interesting to see how the new plane sells. I can't see myself buying one because I have the existing Veritas low angle block plane and that works so well that I couldn't justify buying another. The recently introduced Veritas skew rebate, on the other hand, is ground-breaking in that it offers what no other fenced rebate plane on the market offers. That's where my money will be going when I can afford it.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (24 Nov 2008)

Looking at the styling again, the design is just *so* slick and shiny it's positively eye watering, I reckon that J Clarkeson esq. ought to be the person to review them...which is a shame really as I'm the one doing them for F&C. Rob Lee has kindly sent me one (or both) to review for the mag, along with one or two other items of interest :wink: - Rob


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## Rob Lee (24 Nov 2008)

Paul Chapman":2uihuuzi said:


> It will be interesting to see how the new plane sells. I can't see myself buying one because I have the existing Veritas low angle block plane and that works so well that I couldn't justify buying another. The recently introduced Veritas skew rebate, on the other hand, is ground-breaking in that it offers what no other fenced rebate plane on the market offers. That's where my money will be going when I can afford it.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



Hi Paul - 

No worries - we'll keep you hopping with the next bunch.... should be more than six or so by June... if we keep to plan....

Small scraper pops up next...in the hand planes, at least....

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Paul Chapman (24 Nov 2008)

Rob Lee":1x71yw6s said:


> Small scraper pops up next...



Now that sounds good - I like scraper planes 8) I look forward to it.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Vormulac (24 Nov 2008)

woodbloke":2qa3ssg2 said:


> Looking at the styling again, the design is just *so* slick and shiny it's positively eye watering, I reckon that J Clarkeson esq. ought to be the person to review them...



Nice idea Rob, but you know full well he'd call it a 'Woodworking bat' and proceed to test it by hammering a screw in with it. :lol:


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## paulm (24 Nov 2008)

EdSutton":1er131wt said:


> I may be a lone voice on this, but the aesthetic is not something I immediately love. Cheers, Ed



No, not a lone voice Ed.

I can see the appeal that the new styling may have for some/many, but way too bling for me too. 

Don't doubt it's a very high spec and functional product, just wouldn't entertain it in my workshop irrespective of price, and I do like my upmarket and expensive tools generally, even if I didn't have enough good quality block planes already.

Likewise the new dovetail saw, excepting I can't see anybody liking the aesthetics on that at all, looks awful to my taste. I think if trying to hit a price point with that product I would have gone the whole hog and made the handle of the same material as the spine (and I think I saw pics of some like that somewhere ?). It still wouldn't appeal to me but would be a bit less messy looking than the combined wood/composite version which grates a lot for me. 

Not wanting to knock one of the few innovative hand tool companies out there, and I do like the functionality of the new skew rebate plane in particular, but I've never really warmed to the aesthetics of much of the Veritas product range generally and these latest offerings don't do it for me either I'm afraid.

I must be a bit of a traditionalist at heart I suppose, which is a bit of a shock as I hadn't thought that until now !

Anyway, best of luck with the new products regardless Rob, and hope you find that I am in the minority with Ed on this one.

All the best, Paul


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## Smudger (24 Nov 2008)

How about these - which I don't think were ever made? Blingblock.







I like them, its nice to see a fresh approach, but I couldn't justify the expense.


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## Bentham Andy (24 Nov 2008)

chisel":1sneh2up said:


> EdSutton":1sneh2up said:
> 
> 
> > I may be a lone voice on this, but the aesthetic is not something I immediately love. Cheers, Ed



It's not just the price/functionality ratio that I mentioned in an earlier post that I find surprising but I also don't like the looks of it either.

Andy


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (24 Nov 2008)

Just to let you know I posted a link to my review in the Review Forum.

To save you going there ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## custard (24 Nov 2008)

bugbear":290fyc0a said:


> Bentham Andy":290fyc0a said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to appear as a party pooper but TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY QUID for a block plane from Veritas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...



I've got a Lexus...but I doubt I'll be getting one of these! 

Can anyone who has used this block plane comment on how it actually performs versus current LN/LV block planes?


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## Rknott2007 (24 Nov 2008)

Who's brought one then??


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## Karl (24 Nov 2008)

My 2pence

Not long ago you could have bought a Clifton 7 for £8 more. I know the Veritas is made of different materials, but it is just a bit too rich for my liking. Can't really work out which market it is aimed at, but £220 for a block plane is steep (Although on the other side, Rob Lee does point out the high cost of the raw materials).

Styling - love it. It was pretty obvious from the silhouette on the Axminster advert at the top of the UKW pages that the "new" model was gonna be a block plane of sorts. 

Interesting to see that Derek C (and others from what i've read) doesn't seem to think it performed any better than the "standard" LV LA block (which I have).

I'm just glad that I bought all my planes earlier this year, before the price rises :lol: 

Cheers

Karl


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## woodbloke (24 Nov 2008)

karl":qjhn0k1b said:


> Interesting to see that Derek C (and others from what i've read) doesn't seem to think it performed any better than the "standard" LV LA block (which I have).
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Karl



Karl - in the same way that a Holtey S98 will probably perform no better than a LV BU smoother...but then which would you rather have sitting on your bench, always assuming of course, that you (read I  ) could afford a Holtey? In my view, the new LV block (the shiny one) is firmly pitched in Holtey country and at an affordable price...*if * you want to push the boat out a bit - Rob


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## wizer (24 Nov 2008)

woodbloke":18hk8bup said:


> firmly pitched in Holtey country



Oh, really? I'm not sure Mr Holtey would agree. His planes are lovingly hand made from scratch, to his own design. Veritas planes are mass produced to a price. Both may be high quality planes, but I do think the leagues are different.


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## Mr Ed (24 Nov 2008)

Yes it is a bit different as Mr. Holtey is only making 16 number 98 planes...I suspect Rob Lee's tooling costs need amortising over a few more than that to break even.

Cheers, Ed


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## custard (24 Nov 2008)

Paul Chapman":kps4n3g3 said:


> It will be interesting to see how the new plane sells. I can't see myself buying one because I have the existing Veritas low angle block plane and that works so well that I couldn't justify buying another. The recently introduced Veritas skew rebate, on the other hand, is ground-breaking in that it offers what no other fenced rebate plane on the market offers. That's where my money will be going when I can afford it.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



I use both the left hand and right hand versions of the new skew rebate planes, well worth it just to avoid the din and dust of a router (and having to dress up like an astronaut just to cut a simple rebate in an exotic timber)!


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## custard (24 Nov 2008)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Just to let you know I posted a link to my review in the Review Forum.
> 
> To save you going there ..
> 
> ...



Derek, thanks for that review. In the workshop I use the LV low angle block plane, the LN skew block plane, and the LN apron block plane. When I'm outside working on boats I use a Stanley 91/2. I find that all of them share a common problem, I frequently change the depth of cut and on all these planes that means slackening off the pressure on the cap, but when re-tightened I often find the iron has tilted to one side or another. How do these new LV planes perform in that respect?


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## Karl (24 Nov 2008)

woodbloke":1pbl4f4h said:


> Karl - in the same way that a Holtey S98 will probably perform no better than a LV BU smoother...but then which would you rather have sitting on your bench, always assuming of course, that you (read I  ) could afford a Holtey? In my view, the new LV block (the shiny one) is firmly pitched in Holtey country and at an affordable price...*if * you want to push the boat out a bit - Rob



Interesting question.

I honestly don't believe that I would go for the Holtey. Performance is key. All other things being equal, i'd rather have a dozen different LV/LN/Clifton planes than one Holtey. 

Cheers

Karl


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## tnimble (24 Nov 2008)

wizer":3d5lgfsr said:


> woodbloke":3d5lgfsr said:
> 
> 
> > firmly pitched in Holtey country
> ...


When is a thing like a plane hand made from scratch?

- May sheet and flat bar stock be used? Or has the metal be melted and cast and rolled from raw ore? May the ore be purchased or must the plane maker hase a mine in his back yard?
- Must the parts be sawed and filed (preferably by self made saw blades and files), or may a milling machine be used? And may tis machine be equipted by digital readout or CNC operated?
- May he only produce a tool on request and never make teh same agina, mat he make a couple and put them for sale? If so how many may he make 10 per year, ten in total? a hundred or perhaps two hundred, or doesn't this matter as long as the parts are still hand aligned and removed from a machine and hand assembled?
- may the plane maker hire other people to help him keep up with demand, may he have some parts outsourced?

Is Mr Holtey still producing lovingly hand made tools when he makes 16 number 98 lanes in his shop using a CNC milling machine and lathe he lovingly cares for and maintains? Is he still is he would send out some parts to have sand blaster to a nice satin finish because he has not the equipment and expertise to get that nice finish on these parts?

The same can be asked about Bridge City Tool Works. What type of product have they made if they have lovingly created say 50 commemorative planes in their own shop who love and care about their job and equipment?

Maybe Rob can shed some light on the production runs they make on say the LVLAB and the NX60? I hope I can assume we've all looked at some of the pictures Rob posted on the web showing their shop and some of the production on the skew rebate planes? And that we know each machine is operated and fully cared for by one of their employees. in contrast to some mass producing companies where nobody has any responsibility for a machine except for some high up guy who manages the budget for replacing the machines if they break down. And where the employee gives a rats pink hole about the parts produced as long as the pay check will come in. Many factories reflect in high contrast to the workshop that shows in Robs pictures. I highly doubt they spend a week cleaning up, derusting machine beds, repainting the machines, floor and walls, and tidying up part storage before Rob wanders in with his camera.


----------



## Mr Ed (24 Nov 2008)

Thats a lot of questions Laura, but I'm not sure what you're really getting at.

I think all that was being said is that high end bespoke makers (e.g. Karl Holtey) and quality mass production outfits (e.g. Lee Valley) are doing 2 different things. I doubt if either thinks they are in competition with the other. I don't think either was being vaunted as better or more honourable, just different.

Cheers, Ed


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## Ironballs (24 Nov 2008)

Well I'm just glad that there are folks making new planes like this, won't necessarily buy them but it's good to know that I could if I wanted to - or could afford to in the case of Holteys!

I only have a cheapo block plane so this could be a potential future purchase for me, though there would be other planes ahead of it in the queue...

I love the look of the shinier version, modern looking and it seems that the Veritas designers have been idling staring at pictures of Ferraris whilst penning new designs. Just imagine what a No6/7 in this style would look like.

Well done Rob and team and looking forward to that little scraper in Feb

Cheers

Damian


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## tnimble (25 Nov 2008)

EdSutton":5iktwu8y said:


> Thats a lot of questions Laura, but I'm not sure what you're really getting at.


What I was getting at, when to we define in what leak a certain product of a certain maker falls.



> I think all that was being said is that high end bespoke makers (e.g. Karl Holtey) and quality mass production outfits (e.g. Lee Valley) are doing 2 different things. I doubt if either thinks they are in competition with the other. I don't think either was being vaunted as better or more honourable, just different.


Agreed that that has not been questioned in this thread. But with this new premium line of tools Rob Lee is putting out the Lee Valley, Utilitas and Veritas combo has now at least 4 kind of product:
- quality tools from various sources
- tools branded under the name of Lee Valley
- tools designed and manufactured under the name of Utilitas
- tools designed and manufactured under the name of Varitas (the same of the above with the addition of all parts must be produced in North America and must have something unique in the design)
- a no compromise range of tools with strong emphisis on design, materials and finish quality under the name of Veritas premium line

From top to bottom in this list things vary from almost 'big-box store' allke to about the likes of indi tool makers.


----------



## woodbloke (25 Nov 2008)

wizer":yjum5l1l said:


> woodbloke":yjum5l1l said:
> 
> 
> > firmly pitched in Holtey country
> ...



Tom - that we're even mentioning KH's planes and the new Veritas blocks in the same thread is in itself interesting. Agreed, the two methods of manufacture are entirely different, Holtey making a limited number of bespoke planes *not* by hand (there's a lot of sophisticated kit in his shop) and Rob Lee using what must be an equally sophisticated manufacturing system. Rob gave his designers a free hand on this one iIrc but had to reign them back on one or two issues. The weekend after next I'll have an opportunity to compare the NX60 with a Holtey side by side...it'll be interesting to see how the new Veritas stacks up beside it.
What's also quite interesting is that Rob Lee owns an S98 (it was on show last week in the USA) so you can draw your own conclusions as to the design specification(s) for the new planes :wink: - Rob


----------



## wizer (25 Nov 2008)

tnimble":3p12kuxe said:


> wizer":3p12kuxe said:
> 
> 
> > woodbloke":3p12kuxe said:
> ...



Dividing the hair into four I think there Laura.


----------



## woodbloke (25 Nov 2008)

tnimble":2lkfmty4 said:


> wizer":2lkfmty4 said:
> 
> 
> > woodbloke":2lkfmty4 said:
> ...





wizer":2lkfmty4 said:


> Dividing the hair into four I think there Laura.



Tom - the point is valid IMO. If you've ever dipped into David Pye's book on ' The Nature and Art of Workmanship' (if I remember the title correctly) there's an excellent account of exactly _what_ constitutes something made "by hand" If you can find a copy, it makes excellent and very thoughtful reading - Rob


----------



## bugbear (25 Nov 2008)

wizer":29s39yzc said:


> woodbloke":29s39yzc said:
> 
> 
> > firmly pitched in Holtey country
> ...



Wayne Anderson's planes are close to hand made, as are Bill Carter's.

Karl Holtey's most definitely are not. His production isn't fully automatic either, of course.

The designs are indeed his own, but then so are Veritas'

BugBear


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## ivan (25 Nov 2008)

I have one or two LV planes, including the new rebate. They are all substantial, accurately made, and so work excellently. Personally I do not rate Norris' adjsuter design. It looks engineering-solution-elegant, but makes it impossible to adjust depth of cut without upsetting the lateral setting, and also vice versa. Unfortunately for me LV have made a feature of this, which usually limits my choice to Clifton or LN.


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## woodbloke (25 Nov 2008)

ivan":1itzo80y said:


> I have one or two LV planes, including the new rebate. They are all substantial, accurately made, and so work excellently. Personally I do not rate Norris' adjsuter design. It looks engineering-solution-elegant, but makes it impossible to adjust depth of cut without upsetting the lateral setting, and also vice versa. Unfortunately for me LV have made a feature of this, which usually limits my choice to Clifton or LN.



I've got five planes with Norris type adjusters and have never found this to be an issue - Rob


----------



## Paul Chapman (25 Nov 2008)

I think the Norris adjuster on the Veritas low angle block plane works really well - one of the reasons I prefer it over the Lie Nielsen.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## ike (26 Nov 2008)

I like the Norris adjuster. It's an elegant design solution. So it might take a little while to get used to. How difficult can it be? :roll: I like retained one in the new LV block plane as Alf described. 

I however neither need, want or wish to spend even more on a premium 'premium' plane. :roll: As if the 'normal' planes aren't pricy enough (The price has as near as damn it, doubled since I bought my set after they first came out.) My 'premium' LV's including the LA block are already spot on.


----------



## Rob Lee (26 Nov 2008)

woodbloke":253bwwfv said:


> wizer":253bwwfv said:
> 
> 
> > woodbloke":253bwwfv said:
> ...



Hi - 

Actually - we had two partially completed 982's on display....just missing the adjusters.

I do have a 98 though, and mitre plane of Karl, as will soon have a 982. All you have to do is look at his exploded views on his website to truly appreciate how much extremely detailed work goes into each plane. 

We were luck enough to have a customer of Karl's set up on a bench in our booth at WIA with 6 or seven of her personal Holtey planes. She would let anyone who wanted have a go at a piece of maple with any of the planes... truly generous!

Cheers - 

Rob


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## Pekka Huhta (26 Nov 2008)

For me the LN adjuster has been the worst possible one, although it looks brilliantly simple at first sight. There's no "gear" on the adjustment, so you will have to loosen something else when adjusting. And every time when adjusting, the iron "rides" to the same direction where you turn the knob. The small planes aren't all that bad, but frankly I hate my #62 for the poor adjuster. No tuning, lapping or greasing improves the adjuster. 


To return to the new baby, I'm a bit surprised about the strong criticism. OK, it sure is an expensive plane, but then again so are many others as well. There are limits even to the best handwork (like Wayne Anderson or Konrad Sauer) or small-scale industrial perfection (like Karl Holtey). Both styles lean heavily to plate steel manufactury, just as the old craftsmen who made the original infills. Cast structures and that sort of space-age design requires quite a bit of industry behind it. 

I don't see the new plane as much a competitor to the traditional hand-made tools but something new: a "designer plane", which has just as much value in it's design and style as any design item. You won't say that "that Alessi does not do anything my good old plastic lemon squeezer doesn't" as everyone can see it just isn't the point. On that plane you pay £100 and some for a ferking brilliant plane and another £100 for a design item. It's simple as that. 

Isn't that the whole point behind "premium?" That it isn't just practical, no-nonsense workhorse, but something more than that?

In that light I understand the new stainless version very well, but I'm not sure if the other one has enough bling in it :wink: 

Pekka

P.S: would I want one? Hmm. Probably yes, but then again if we count out my Clifton #5 and LN #62, all my other planes were made before WW2 and most of them before the first one. The new plane would probably look a bit too posh on the row


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## woodbloke (26 Nov 2008)

Pekka Huhta":3bmtvc7d said:


> For me the LN adjuster has been the worst possible one, although it looks brilliantly simple at first sight. There's no "gear" on the adjustment, so you will have to loosen something else when adjusting. And every time when adjusting, the iron "rides" to the same direction where you turn the knob. The small planes aren't all that bad, but frankly I hate my #62 for the poor adjuster. No tuning, lapping or greasing improves the adjuster.



Pekka - this is one of the fundamental things with a Norris style adjuster in that you *must* slacken off the tension on the blade *before * you make any alterations. One of the main reasons that the traditional Norris planes with the adjuster failed was that the user didn't have a clue on how to make an adjustment to the blade and so wound it in or out with the blade fully locked down...hence 'caveat emptor' (sp?) when you buy one from Fleabay... unless like a certain person in these parts known to us all, who is the possessor of an shedfull of S&S planes, you buy one that's never been used  - Rob


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## bugbear (26 Nov 2008)

Pekka Huhta":q3axsbpm said:


> "that Alessi does not do anything my good old plastic lemon squeezer doesn't"



The Alessi will spray lemon juice all over your kitchen, which the cheap one won't 

BugBear


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## tnimble (26 Nov 2008)

Pekka Huhta":2jifb09u said:


> I'm a bit surprised about the strong criticism. OK, it sure is an expensive plane, but then again so are many others as well.


The criticism rizes each time a new and expensive tool comes about. The more expensive the stronger the criticism. Take for instance the BCT Jointmaker Pro. The price between that and an average japanese handsaw is about 15 times, the strong criticism is huge. The design and material of the NX60 is very inovative if not revolutionary, but the whole functional principle behind the JMP is innovative if not revolutionary. The NX60 is only about twice as much as their other low angle block plane, it's actually cheap in comparison.


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## woodbloke (26 Nov 2008)

My 'parcel of loveliness' :wink: arrived tonite  For any doubters about the NX60, when you see and hold it :shock: :shock: ... absolutely fandabidozi!! - Rob


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## Lord Nibbo (26 Nov 2008)

woodbloke":1wld7969 said:


> My 'parcel of loveliness' :wink: arrived tonite  For any doubters about the NX60, when you see and hold it :shock: :shock: ... absolutely fandabidozi!! - Rob


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## woodbloke (26 Nov 2008)

Lord Nibbo":bltvstuz said:


> woodbloke":bltvstuz said:
> 
> 
> > My 'parcel of loveliness' :wink: arrived tonite  For any doubters about the NX60, when you see and hold it :shock: :shock: ... absolutely fandabidozi!! - Rob



...in the fullness of time :wink: - Rob

edit: forgot to mention, got the DX60 as well  

...and the new d/t saw =P~ \/


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## bugbear (27 Nov 2008)

tnimble":2hti9o9q said:


> Pekka Huhta":2hti9o9q said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a bit surprised about the strong criticism. OK, it sure is an expensive plane, but then again so are many others as well.
> ...



Holtey's site no longer quotes a price for his A31 thumb plane.

(googly) Ah - this site does:

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/k ... planes.htm

5199 dollars!. Hands up anyone who still thinks the LV is crazy money...

BugBear


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## Bentham Andy (27 Nov 2008)

For what it's worth my hand is still up.


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## Pekka Huhta (27 Nov 2008)

woodbloke":2a3gwzfx said:


> Pekka Huhta":2a3gwzfx said:
> 
> 
> > For me the LN adjuster has been the worst possible one, although it looks brilliantly simple at first sight. There's no "gear" on the adjustment, so you will have to loosen something else when adjusting. And every time when adjusting, the iron "rides" to the same direction where you turn the knob. The small planes aren't all that bad, but frankly I hate my #62 for the poor adjuster. No tuning, lapping or greasing improves the adjuster.
> ...



Yep, *BUT* the LN adjuster is not a Norris evolution :wink: I don't know wether the screw type adjuster LN's use was originally invented by E. Preston, but at least they started using that screw type adjuster quite extensively on their planes. It works well with long and narrow irons like E.P shoulder planes etc, but the same adjuster is close to useless on a wide plane - at least if you ask me  

The double screw principle as the original Stanley #62 (or #60½, #65,... etc.) is good, much better than the single screw systems. 

While woodbloke is bragging about his new planes, I have to admit that there's a sweetheart-#62 somewhere in the postal system rolling towards Finland just because of the LN adjuster  

Pekka


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## Lord Nibbo (27 Nov 2008)

woodbloke":2smdfeil said:


> edit: forgot to mention, got the DX60 as well
> 
> ...and the new d/t saw =P~ \/



Is your first name Waka? :lol: :wink:


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## Vormulac (27 Nov 2008)

woodbloke":ao54po59 said:


> ...in the fullness of time :wink: - Rob
> 
> edit: forgot to mention, got the DX60 as well
> 
> ...and the new d/t saw =P~ \/



Rob - YOU SUCK!! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

notjealousoranything...

Now if I could just work out a way to get some blue led lighting inside the NX60 I might be interested... :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (27 Nov 2008)

Have you seen the Mk 2 version






Cool or what 8) 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## wizer (27 Nov 2008)

It looks completely believable as an F1 car.... "Damon? I've got an idea that might get you back in, call me back!"


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## Lord Nibbo (27 Nov 2008)

Paul Chapman":2z7mz0eh said:


> Have you seen the Mk 2 version
> 
> 
> Cool or what 8) 8)
> ...



I spotted that yesterday, it's even got something an F1 car hasn't got....... A spare wheel :lol:


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## Paul Chapman (27 Nov 2008)

Lord Nibbo":36dr7e2y said:


> it's even got something an F1 car hasn't got....... A spare wheel :lol:



These Veritas people think of everything 8)


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## tnimble (27 Nov 2008)

My box-o-loveliness has arrived today (no, not also a DX60). It's absolutely stunning and did not need any back flattening at all, just a quick hne of the micro bevel.

Caressed a couple of pieces of hard to plane wood with it, resulting in shavings varying from whisper thin silky shavings to delicate elven hair.

No need for any 'hard to adjust' fears.


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## Philly (27 Nov 2008)

Glad to hear you are pleased!
Philly


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## Ironballs (29 Nov 2008)

Got to see both of the new models today and they are very nice, generated a lot of interest at the CHT stand in Harrogate. They're longer than I thought they would be, but I think that makes them feel better in the hand. They looked a cut above all the other blocks on show and also very modern, the knurling on the knobs for example is superb. I think these will sell very well


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## Mr Ed (30 Nov 2008)

Ever waiting for the new new thing, the big question is what the next planes in the family will be...

Cheers, Ed


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## Ironballs (30 Nov 2008)

Didn't Rob drop a sizable hint in the thread when I was asking for advice on scraper planes


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## Paul Chapman (30 Nov 2008)

Ironballs":meq37uvr said:


> Didn't Rob drop a sizable hint in the thread when I was asking for advice on scraper planes



Rob said:

Small scraper pops up next...in the hand planes, at least....

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Mr Ed (30 Nov 2008)

He did, there's also an interview with him on the Popular Woodworking site where he's said they will be doing a small scraper, a LA Jack and Bevel Up Smoother in the premium range, plus 'a plane unlike anything ever done before' whatever that is.

Just wonder which one will be next.

Cheers, Ed


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## Rknott2007 (30 Nov 2008)

Whats wrong with the current bevel up smoother????


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## Ironballs (30 Nov 2008)

I was using my BUS today and find it hard to see how they could improve it, the only route would be to either make it more bling or alter the handles to make it more familiar to users of other plane families


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## Vann (30 Nov 2008)

By all accounts the BUS is very good (I don't own one), but looking at the NX60, I would say the premium BUS would have the nickel body (so no body rust) and stainless fittings instead of brass. Then add the streamlining.... 
(hey, maybe LV will add a 'boot' [that's a 'trunk' to any 'Mericans reading this] so you can store the other two blades on board :lol: )

Seriously though, Derek Cohen's review suggests the new planes don't actually plane any better then the Veritas or LN low angle block planes, they just have additional features (and bling). Personally I like the brass and the O1 steel blades of the existing range, but would probably prefer the shape and mouth stop on the NX/DX60.
Cheers, Vann.


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## Ironballs (30 Nov 2008)

I thought the new new blocks added features not available on the current models and then they added the shiny element - which does look good. I didn't think the BUS was that lacking in features, though would be happy to be proved wrong


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## woodbloke (1 Dec 2008)

Ironballs":15c3vx75 said:


> I thought the new new blocks added features not available on the current models and then they added the shiny element - which does look good.


I was using both over the weekend and they are very pleasant to use, though as Alf said in her review, no better than a standard block, such as my LN 60.5. What is slightly fiddly is to set up the mouth adjustment with the allen key, but once that's done, you can just leave it alone. The most awkward thing though, is fitting the tapered blade into the Eclipse jig for honing...very tricky :x It will go in, but *only* just - Rob


----------



## Handworkfan (1 Dec 2008)

I'm usually a fan of Veritas tools and have quite a selection in my kit - but I don't think I'll be adding this one. I'd have to keep the workshop door shut all the time or I'd be afraid the thing was going to take off on some intergalactic voyage!
Most of Veritas' innovations have a point to them - e.g. the blade-centring grub screws - and I love the combination of black paint, bubinga handles and brass fittings. Unless it works significantly better (and I gather it doesn't) there's no reason to give cupboard space to this one and several good ones not to.
Sad - I haven't been disappointed in a Veritas product since their ill-conceived waterstone pond, but this looks like a remarkably worthy successor!
What would interest me would be a bevel-up jack plane with a higher bed angle to enable me to get a seriously steep EP - now that would be worth more than a second look


----------



## woodbloke (1 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":27bgz9a8 said:


> hat would interest me would be a bevel-up jack plane with a higher bed angle to enable me to get a seriously steep EP - now that would be worth more than a second look


Welcome to the forum...a high EP is easy to achieve anyway with a BU plane. Hone a micro-bevel at 50deg and the EP then becomes 62deg, which is not bad going :wink: - Rob


----------



## Handworkfan (1 Dec 2008)

woodbloke":270vhk9f said:


> a high EP is easy to achieve anyway with a BU plane. Hone a micro-bevel at 50deg and the EP then becomes 62deg, which is not bad going :wink: - Rob


yes, that's why I favour BU planes. I use the VEritas Mk 2 guide on its steepest setting (54 + 2 deg on the eccentric roller = 56) which I reckon gives me an EP of 68 degrees - and I've got a nice finish on some African Blackwood with that - but the steep honing angle means there's very little blade projecting from the jig to register agasint the square fence. a higher bed angle would reduce the honing angle, making the process easier.
I dont' think it's likely to happen though because of economics. But then, if we'r etaliking economics, why produce such an expensive block plane if it comes to that?


----------



## Vann (2 Dec 2008)

woodbloke":3ts7pna8 said:


> ...as Alf said in her review,


Has Alf done a review of these new planes? If so, where? I've checked the reviews on this site and the "Cornish Workshop" site but can't find anything. I thought she'd gone into hibernation.

The only reviews I've seen are Derek Cohen's, and Christopher Schwarz (Popular Woodworking site).

Cheers, Vann


----------



## Paul Chapman (2 Dec 2008)

Here you go http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/premium.html

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Handworkfan (2 Dec 2008)

The more I think about this, the more disappointed and - yes - angry I feel. Why have VEritas poured resources into bling and packaging (which latter will doubtless end up in the recycling bin) to produce a plane that adds no practical value to their range, when there are so many other things they could have done with what they themselves say is our money?
None of the top 3 volume manufacturers, for example, produces a compass plane - now there's a gap. 
It's sheer self-indulgence - they're obviously making too much money from us their customers


----------



## tnimble (2 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":2gox6m5c said:


> produce a plane that adds no practical value to their range



The plane does not perform better in the shavings that can be made than the set of block planes previously t thi one 'performing best'. Not adding any practical value is something completely different. These planes do add practical value; better ergonomics, improved ease of repeatable setup, new type of non rusting alloy


Packaging does not get tossed away, its put away to one day get reacquainted with the plane


----------



## Jake (2 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":18d7xcsz said:


> The more I think about this, the more disappointed and - yes - angry I feel.



I'm left pretty cold by them, but I don't feel that I have a right to be angry about it.



> Why have VEritas poured resources into bling and packaging (which latter will doubtless end up in the recycling bin) to produce a plane that adds no practical value to their range, when there are so many other things they could have done with what they themselves say is our money?



It isn't your money if you don't buy one.



> None of the top 3 volume manufacturers, for example, produces a compass plane - now there's a gap.
> It's sheer self-indulgence - they're obviously making too much money from us their customers



I think they are probably noticing the criticism they sometimes get of the standard range being too utilitarian, and trying to appeal (in their own distinctive way) to those who would like a bit more bling and a few frills around the edges. 

Brass planes are pretty blingy in my view (ref your avatar).


----------



## Handworkfan (2 Dec 2008)

It was a LV spokesperson who made the comment that he regarded their money as their customers' money.
Well,, perish the thought that a plane should be utilitarian - next thing we know someone will be suggesting they should be judged on how well they do a job! :shock: 
You'll have to ask LN why they make their planes of bronze (not brass)
As far as the Veritas plane is concerned, I guess the market will untlimately pass its own verdict - maybe they should just go the whole hog and get Joan Rivers to endorse it. :wink:


----------



## Jake (2 Dec 2008)

Sorry, bronze, yes. For the weight and non-rusting ostensibly. Mostly for bling appeal, I suspect.

They haven't abandoned the utilitarian ethic, they are just trying to broaden their audience.

As for the money thing, what they meant was that for their standard range they tried not to 'waste' money on non-utilitarian frills so as to allow purchasers to buy a fine working tool at a reasonable price.

Given that there is a choice whether to buy the standard block (which is what I would do) or the 'premium' plane, the purchaser can decide whether his money is wasted on frills/bling or not.


----------



## lurker (2 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":3fx65wt5 said:


> The more I think about this, the more disappointed and - yes - angry I feel.



Unless you have shares in these firms what's to get worked up about?
Find something useful to get angry about.

These things give lots of people pleasure. I'm not one of them, but hey they are doing me no harm.

You must be in an absolute rageing fury with Waka :lol: :lol:


----------



## Handworkfan (2 Dec 2008)

Maybe 'angry' was a bit hyperbolic - but it's annoying to me that a firm that can produce such excellent kit is going down the bling road rather than filling the very obvious gaps that there are in the market - as I say, a compass plane would be a great addition to the range. it seems to me to be departing from a successful formula of well-worked out and thoroughly usable kit that's always been exceptional value for money.
But fair enough - I'm not going to waste too much energy being angry with them especially when there's so much else that's more satisfying to grouch about :wink:


----------



## bugbear (3 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":37ffpoli said:


> Maybe 'angry' was a bit hyperbolic - but it's annoying to me that a firm that can produce such excellent kit is going down the bling road rather than filling the very obvious gaps that there are in the market - as I say, a compass plane would be a great addition to the range. it seems to me to be departing from a successful formula of well-worked out and thoroughly usable kit that's always been exceptional value for money.
> But fair enough - I'm not going to waste too much energy being angry with them especially when there's so much else that's more satisfying to grouch about :wink:



Thing is - lots of customers ASKED, long, loud and repeatedly for a bling-i-er range of tools, so all LV are doing is what customers asked for.

BugBear


----------



## Handworkfan (3 Dec 2008)

bugbear":18q2ktog said:


> Thing is - lots of customers ASKED, long, loud and repeatedly for a bling-i-er range of tools, so all LV are doing is what customers asked for.
> 
> BugBear



Well, I can't argue with that, more's the pity. :wink: 
(It's not as easy as it looks, you know, being a Grumpy Old Man - and I'm still only learning the art.) :lol:


----------



## woodbloke (3 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan wrote:


> It's not as easy as it looks, you know, being a Grumpy Old Man - and I'm still only learning the art.


...and some of us around these parts have been at it a long time :wink: :lol: - Rob


----------



## Rob Lee (3 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":3lipbcs4 said:


> Maybe 'angry' was a bit hyperbolic - but it's annoying to me that a firm that can produce such excellent kit is going down the bling road rather than filling the very obvious gaps that there are in the market - as I say, a compass plane would be a great addition to the range. it seems to me to be departing from a successful formula of well-worked out and thoroughly usable kit that's always been exceptional value for money.
> But fair enough - I'm not going to waste too much energy being angry with them especially when there's so much else that's more satisfying to grouch about :wink:



Hey - where's the beef?? :lol: 

Ain't no direction change here...did you miss the saw released at the same time?

How about that side rebate plane??? It's a steal, for what it is....

Our next 8 planes are planned to be $129, $79, $79, $79, $79, $165, $179, and $179.... and a spokeshave at $109 ... all USD (and subject to change based on wonky exchange rates...)

If we do a jack in Ni-resist ductile - it'll cost us $134 to buy the raw casting - and cost twice as much to machine as normal ductile... that's completely without "bling". "Bling" is pretty much free... advanced material you gotta pay for....buy it - or don't but it, but don't ascribe motivations or directional changes that aren't there...

Then too, we don't have to play in just one sandbox... 8) 

Cheers - 


Rob
(who is rapidly gaining insight as to what it must have been like to be a director at Volvo in the 80's... :shock: :lol: )


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## Paul Chapman (3 Dec 2008)

Keep up the good work, Rob. I think most of us are very happy with the tools you are producing.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Vormulac (3 Dec 2008)

There will always be naysayers Rob, but you don't sound too choked about it - stout fellow! :lol: 

V.


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## Rob Lee (3 Dec 2008)

Vormulac":24q5hh1n said:


> There will always be naysayers Rob, but you don't sound too choked about it - stout fellow! :lol:
> 
> V.



Hi - 

No worries here - I know what we're doing - and where we're going...and am quite willing to share that ...

I'm not really chuffed about any comments - it's all good (and all scrolls off the bottom eventually... :lol: ) ...

Cheers - 

Rob


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## yetloh (3 Dec 2008)

Surely one of the points about hand tools is that they should be satisfying to behold. All Holtey planes qualify hands down. So do the new LV block planes. Also LV are innovators; LN are not. Apart from build quality their planes are no advance over Stanley/Record of 50 years ago. I have the LN low angle block plane and the more I use it the less I like it; I prefer my old (fettled with a Jap laminated blade) Stanley equivalent which is a more useful size and vastly easier to adjust laterally. 

I think the new LV block planes are great and am in the queue for the premium version. My LN will appear on ebay in due course.


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## Handworkfan (3 Dec 2008)

Rob Lee":1s1zb9gc said:


> [Ain't no direction change here...
> 
> buy it - or don't but it, but don't ascribe motivations or directional changes that aren't there...
> 
> ...


I actually said a lot of nice things about LV which have gone unnoticed - I've got a shedload of Veritas kit and I love it, so I'm clearly not just carping for the sake of it.
I'm happy to be assured that there's no directional change, which was what I was worried about. I'll continue to buy, use and doubtless love the well-engineered and functional tools that LV produce at such competitive prices - I've reviewed a few of them over the years.
It seems to me that LV is a unique company, doing soemthing that no one else is doing. LN refine classic designs and produce them to a very high standard, which is great, and Clifton likewise produce pretty trad kit also to high standards - but LV have a tradition of innovation with purpose - the blade-centring screws are a great example, and the frog that supports the blade right through the sole is another.
My only 'beef' is that I don't want to see the only company in the world that does that kind of thing losing its way. If you tell me it hasn't, then that's fine.
No problem.


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## Rob Lee (4 Dec 2008)

Hey Handworkfan...

I *did* put smileys in my post... no offense here...
:shock: 

Cheers - 

Rob
(between periods, hoping to avoid becoming a basement dweller supporter....)


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## Handworkfan (4 Dec 2008)

Rob Lee":954wogvd said:


> Hey Handworkfan...
> 
> I *did* put smileys in my post... no offense here...
> :shock:


Yes, you did - sorry if I sounded defensive.
Don't take me too seriously - I don't - not functioning very well at present and probably rather grumpier than usual.
No offence taken - just think of me as a critical friend.


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## Rob Lee (4 Dec 2008)

Handworkfan":2iiscyrf said:


> Rob Lee":2iiscyrf said:
> 
> 
> > (snip).... just think of me as a critical friend.



That's exactly how I read it...!

Cheers - 

Rob
(Whose team *did* avoid the basement..  )


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## karl5005 (4 Dec 2008)

I don't want to hijack this thread as it is really about LV, but I do feel the need, as my name is mentioned a few times, to address a few misconceptions.

1. My planes are approx 90% hand made, my workshop is quite humble and the majority of machine operations call for a great deal of workholding and tooling which needs to be made. The majority of parts, especially the wood, are done by hand. I employ machining where precision is required and it takes care of some of the donkey work.

2. Since all my planes are fabricated there is absolutely no need for any sand blasting and never has been. All my work is done in house except for the heat treatment on the blades.

3. Holtey and LV planes are different concepts and both work very well as do various others.

My new plane is called No 982, but the '2' does not mean mark 2, it is a different plane from the No 98.

I am a proud owner of a LV NX60 and I can only speak highly of it. I wish Robin Lee and his team the success they deserve.

Karl Holtey


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## Lord Nibbo (4 Dec 2008)

karl5005":2by6i3pj said:


> My new plane is called No 982, but the '2' does not mean mark 2, it is a different plane from the No 98.
> 
> 
> Karl Holtey



Ah! my dream machine a #98  One day Karl, one day. :lol: 

PS... nice to see you post again =D>


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## woodbloke (4 Dec 2008)

karl5005":39jz60vb said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread as it is really about LV, but I do feel the need, as my name is mentioned a few times, to address a few misconceptions.
> 
> 1. My planes are approx 90% hand made, my workshop is quite humble and the majority of machine operations call for a great deal of workholding and tooling which needs to be made. The majority of parts, especially the wood, are done by hand. I employ machining where precision is required and it takes care of some of the donkey work.
> 
> ...



Karl - your planes are the just the *very* best and like LN I'd love to own one, but when your 'shop was featured in F&C a while ago, it's not what I'd call a '90% hand' operation, so please don't try and persuade me otherwise. I've said this many times when people refer to 'handmade'... basically _no such thing exists_. I suggest you find a copy of Proff David Pye's book 'The Nature and Art of Workmanship' from which I quote the last para from Chp 3, 'Is anything done by hand?'
"The extreme case of the workmanship of risk [hand work] are those where a tool is held in the hand and no jig or any other determining system is there to guide it. Very few things can properly be said to have been made by hand, but, if there are any operations involving a tool which may legitimately be called hand work, then perhaps these are they. Writing and sewing are examples"
I'm pretty certain last time I looked at one of your masterpieces I couldn't detect any crochet work :lol: - Rob


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## Mr Ed (4 Dec 2008)

"To distinguish between the different ways of carrying out an operation by classifying them as hand or machine work is, as we shall see, all but meaningless"

Same author, same book, same chapter!

I have read David Pyes book and in my opinion its not easy going and somewhat self-indulgently analyses the subject in a needlessly academic way. In my view clarity on wether something is 'handmade' or not is even less likely with Mr. Pye in the mix.

Cheers, Ed


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## Paul Chapman (4 Dec 2008)

Blimey, using Pye's definition you wouldn't even be able to fit the fence to your rebate plane :shock: :shock: 

I think I will still consider my stuff as hand-made (even though I occasionally use a router and biscuit jointer) - everything else is done with hand tools (some with fences :wink: )

Cheers :wink: 

Paul

PS and I would class Karl's planes as hand-made.


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## Ironballs (4 Dec 2008)

I didn't see a conveyor belt or moving production line in that feature on Karl's planes, so in my book it's hand made. And very well hand made too.

Let's stop talking semantics and get back to ogling shiny things


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## tnimble (4 Dec 2008)

A few pages back or so when this whole thing about hand made versus mass produced came up I posted some questions to show that is about impossible to differenciate based on the type of tool used or based on what is outsourced 

We don't all grow our own trees to shop them down and make them into boards, likewise does a toolmaker need to do each and every step hirmself that is required to produce the final result.

When trying to do so, one either places Karls and Robs products as equal, or place Robs and ChangDong A Million Hinges For a Buck ltd. as equals.

Both are not true. One can only differenciate if one really want by; the though behind the product and high toletrance high quality versus high volume hope to get away with quality.


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## Handworkfan (4 Dec 2008)

woodbloke":2y5089bb said:


> "The extreme case of the workmanship of risk [hand work] are those where a tool is held in the hand and no jig or any other determining system is there to guide it . . . "



That would be the extreme case, but it ain't that simple, is it?
I would regard, for example, freehand scrollsaw work (something I find impossible to do well!) as hand work.
In a truly 'extreme' case, presumably, no 'jigs' (try squares) would be used to guide the tool (pencil or knife) in marking out! :lol: 

There's also the uestion of who made the jigs - the fact that an end comes perfectly square when I shoot it is down to the fact that I made the shooting board properly in the first place - by hand.
Similarly, a mitred box corner is easily planed to a precise 45 degrees using the 'birdhouse' jig, but only because that itself was precisely planed by hand to the required angle - so as far as I'm concerned it's still hand made in that exhibits, even indirectly, the genuine hand skills of the maker.


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## bugbear (5 Dec 2008)

EdSutton":2dvsf2o0 said:


> I have read David Pyes book and in my opinion its not easy going and somewhat self-indulgently analyses the subject in a needlessly academic way. In my view clarity on wether something is 'handmade' or not is even less likely with Mr. Pye in the mix.
> 
> Cheers, Ed



Sounds related to this book, which I found singularly unenlightening, despite high praise for it in some quarters:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... ight=craft

BugBear


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## woodbloke (5 Dec 2008)

Proff Pye's book is quite a difficult philosophical text to wade through (it was on our reading list for University) and as Ed has correctly pointed out, there are elements within in that appear to contradict. Without wishing to go too far OT Proff Pye examines the nature of 'workmanship' and more specifically the 'workmanship of risk' and the 'workmanship of certainty'
The former is when articles of any sort are supposedly made 'by hand' with all the risks that are attached, hence the reason that we often pay a premium price for goods that are 'hand made'. The 'the workmanship of certainty' is when the risk element is hugely reduced by using a machine tool system of some description, be it a production line, an individual CNC machine or even a hand tool which will determine the desired outcome with far more guarantee. A hand plane then becomes a 'hand-_guided_, outcome determining system' (or words to that effect) to produce a straight surface, the surface is not actually 'hand-made' per sae.
If you take an even more extreme example than the ones quoted, the only thing I can think off that can truly be said to be hand-made is if you were to go to a muddy field, dig up some clay with your bare hands, fashion that clay into a slab pot and then cook it in the sun...that would be 'hand-made' at the a very basic level. Flint knapping is another example which is one step up. The flint knapper (and I know someone who still does this) has a very high 'workmanship of risk' element but another tool is used (a rock or another flint) in the hand to make the desired shape, so it becomes a 'hand-guided' outcome...the analogy here is to think about using a plane blade _on its own_ to make a straight surface :shock:...but then, how do you make the plane blade?... 
The book goes into lots of other interesting areas and is quite thought provoking, hence it's a bit of a hobby-horse :roll: for me when I hear of stuff that's supposedly 'hand-made' as it's a useful 'catch-all' phrase that we use these days to describe something that has an element of 'hand-work' in it. 
I think I've done a enough of a resume here (I think most of it's right...diminishing grey cells etc) and if I've offended anyone by last night's post ('specially Karl H...and I still want an S98) then I apologize and I'll spout no more :-# - Rob


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## karl5005 (5 Dec 2008)

Not offended in the slightest Rob, especially if you can see your way to a No 982 plane. 

I do feel deeply about the true status of my work and it is nice to have a discussion. I would rather people reserved judgement until they visit my workshop :lol: 

To make another bold statement, my philosphy is that the end justifies the means, and the means often come at cost.

Karl Holtey


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## Chris Knight (5 Dec 2008)

I feel the question of hand versus machine tends to the hair splitting variety. It is perhaps easier and more fruitful to consider whether an object is produced for a mass market or a smaller more discerning/demanding market.

In any event, if one wants the best performance possible from a tool, it might well have been produced by any one of dozens of methods.


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## Lord Nibbo (5 Dec 2008)

waterhead37":3qtcmyxg said:


> It is perhaps easier and more fruitful to consider whether an object is produced for a mass market or a smaller more discerning/demanding market.



Spot on waterhead, I suspect you use an electric sander or even an electric drill but what you may have made you will still consider hand made, am I right or am I right :lol: 

So if I choose to buy a cnc to cut up sheet material to make bird boxes I'll still sell them as hand made by me, as it was me who set up the machine using my skills :lol: 

I just don't see any point in any arguments I've read in this thread, a Rolls Royce is still a Rolls Royce and I will still want a #98 :lol:


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## woodbloke (5 Dec 2008)

LN wrote:


> I just don't see any point in any arguments I've read in this thread, a Rolls Royce is still a Rolls Royce and I will still want a #98


Not arguments in the accepted sense, just a point of view that's worthy of discussion, that's all...and you're not the only one who wants a No98 :lol: - Rob


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## Handworkfan (6 Dec 2008)

Lord Nibbo":27to3fk0 said:


> [So if I choose to buy a cnc to cut up sheet material to make bird boxes I'll still sell them as hand made by me, as it was me who set up the machine using my skills :lol:


By that argument, it seesm to me that a wood machinist, having skilfully set up the machine, could feed a few hundred door rails through a double-ended tenoner and claim they were hand made. :? 
This feeos like a really interesting topic, but we're in danger as Karl said of hijacking the LV thread - so I'm taking the liberty of starting a new thread on this in case anyone wants to continue on a dedicated thread.


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## graween (8 Dec 2008)

Hi.
Mr Lee (Rob).
Do you plan to make some "chamfer guides" for the new block planes, like the ones available for the preceding block planes made by veritas ?

Guys


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## Rob Lee (8 Dec 2008)

graween":39nyx1v7 said:


> Hi.
> Mr Lee (Rob).
> Do you plan to make some "chamfer guides" for the new block planes, like the ones available for the preceding block planes made by veritas ?
> 
> Guys



Hi - 

No plans at the moment to do this - but will pass that suggestion along!

Cheers - 

Rob


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## tnimble (8 Dec 2008)

Rob Lee":32pl89zr said:


> No plans at the moment to do this - but will pass that suggestion along!



One of the reasons to stick with LV, LN, Clifton and alike

What about an O1/D2/D3 replacement iron for the DX/NX 60 Rob?


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## Rob Lee (8 Dec 2008)

tnimble":3pu143iw said:


> Rob Lee":3pu143iw said:
> 
> 
> > No plans at the moment to do this - but will pass that suggestion along!
> ...



Hi - 

O1 is on order!

Cheers - 

Rob


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## graween (9 Dec 2008)

Thanks Rob for the answer.

Thanks also for passing the suggestion. Don't know if it was a top selling thing for the low angle plane, but it is helpfull.

But for the moment I can live without it  and use my dx60. At least when it will have cross the Atlantic Ocean, which I hope it does before christmas !

Thanks.


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