# wax sealing for turning blanks



## Random Orbital Bob (1 Apr 2014)

I've been using PVA to seal my blanks for the past year and its quite a time consuming job to basically paint the end grain. Sticky, messy etc. Starting to dread it.

Commercial blanks are always sealed with wax. I was wondering if other turners use this and if so what exactly is it? Paraffin wax? Also typically who is a good supplier and what does it cost. A quick check on ebay reveals 5kg of pelleted form for £23, but that seems toppy to me? (5L pva = £9)

Also the improvement I'm thinking of is that I simply dip or roll the blank in the melted wax and then once withdrawn, it dries fast without mess or further adhesion. What do people do to maintain a hot melted reservoir of the wax? Heat from below with a gaz type setup or what?

Thanks in advance.


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## Soylent1 (1 Apr 2014)

I used to seal core samples for testing in paraffin wax. Which would work just as well for turning blanks I imagine? It's really just a matter of using an old deep fat fryer, set the temperature to just above the melting point around 60 degrees if my memory serves me correct.? dip it in and its done, you can add a couple of layers if to make sure of a good seal. Although it might be more expensive to buy the wax in pellet form it is re-usable, if you strip the blank for turning just put the stripped wax back into the fryer and leave it for an a while, any dirt or contamination will settle to the bottom. HTH 
Tony


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## Random Orbital Bob (1 Apr 2014)

Thanks Tony. Just one thing, you mention that its more expensive in pellet form, how else does it come?


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## nev (1 Apr 2014)

would it be any cheaper/ feasible to use pound shop cheapy candles?


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## Random Orbital Bob (1 Apr 2014)

interesting idea. Not sure, I guess it depends on what weight you get for your pound. I already get CA from the local pound store because it is the least expensive source. I'll have a look next time I'm in.


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## CHJ (1 Apr 2014)

I use old candles and keep an eye open for bargain bin sell offs.
I heat wax to fuming point in a large pan and if blank or log end will fit in I immerse for a few seconds and let water vapor boil off a little then lift out. Round blanks get edges rolled in it.
If too big for pan or picking up I paint hot wax on with bristle brush.


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

Thanks chaps

Was just surfing and found this site

http://www.4candles.co.uk/candle-making ... ainer.html

They do 10Kg for £33 plus I expect postage on top of that, seems about the cheapest I've found so far. I would have thought that candles would be expensive because they've already had the cost factored into the making process ie someones expecting to recoup their labour. Bargain bins would help though. 

Thanks for the input all, at least I know what it is now and how to cook it 

I'll keep my eyes skinned for inexpensive sources. One of those slow cook ovens would make a good reservoir because they're long and oval shaped so larger diameter bowl blanks would fit in.


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## Roger C (2 Apr 2014)

Bob give these chaps a call and see if there is a stockist near you, they stock wood sealing products.
Regards Roger C

J.J. SMITH & CO. LTD.
Liverpool, England UK
email: [email protected]


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## Tazmaniandevil (2 Apr 2014)

Stick an ad on your local freecycle for old candles/candle ends. You get all sorts, even scented ones in little glass jars which can be re-used in projects or by other craft people.


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

Thanks chaps. That's helped me start down this path, much obliged


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Apr 2014)

I've always used old oil based paint on the ends of boards - what's the difference?


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## chipmunk (2 Apr 2014)

I don't know if you've considered it but I've heard of people recommending using a deep fat frier rather than an open flame to heat the wax. Alternatively you can buy single ring electric hobs for safer use in the workshop.

HTH
Jon


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

the difference is ease of application. Wax dry's the moment its not hot any more which means you can store your blanks in their final resting place within minutes of sealing them. You also don't need a brush ie just dip. So its a lot less messy and less time consuming/no temporary staging area while the paint (or pva in my case) drys.

I'm just trying to get more efficient that's the drive behind this that's all. Ideally I would have a dedicated old slow cooker that lives in the workshop into which my wax goes and then when I'm bandsawing blanks, just have it in liquid form and then process the whole lot straight away. Right now, using pva it takes ages, its pretty much another whole job after the bandsawing and I want to cut that time down. The temptation is you don't get to them til the following day and then checks start to appear in the end grain. This is about the necessary speed to avoid checking.

In fact, I guess the best way is not to batch them at all but to bandsaw, seal, bandsaw, seal that way you have no standing time at all before they're sealed. Right now, I'm certain I'm losing blanks to checks due to too long an open time after prepping.


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## Grahamshed (2 Apr 2014)

Interesting thread Bob. Do you still stick the blanks for air circulation or just pile them up ?


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

Morning Graham

No I don't sticker them, I probably should truth be known but it just seems overkill given they're not great long slabs destined for furniture use. I have checked many times and no mould growth is apparent on adjacent blanks so that's not a problem. A case could probably be made for them not drying as fast but with the best will in the world, I just don't have the indoor space to have the luxury of stickering blanks.


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## Grahamshed (2 Apr 2014)

Thats good. Don't need to feel guilty about mine then.


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## Woodmonkey (2 Apr 2014)

I use the pellets, 5 kg lasts me a long time although I'm maybe not doing the volume that you do. I've seen it stated on another thread that cheap candles are not as good as they are not pure paraffin wax so doesn't stick properly to the blank... Deep fat fryer sounds like a good idea or slow cooker, I just use an old big frying pan over a camping stove outside the front of the workshop - its easy to roll even quite large blanks in this whereas you might not fit in a fryer unless you had the wax right up to the top. I've noticed the wax doesn't stick properly unless it's nice and hot.


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## Grahamshed (2 Apr 2014)

So now I have to tell SWMBO I need a slow cooker in the workshop ???
She will suggest I get a bed as well


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## paulm (2 Apr 2014)

I used to do the wax method Rob but changed to dipping in sealer or brushing on if too big. Reason being that it was too much effort and time unless doing big batches all at once, and even then delays from cutting all then sealing all weren 't helpful .....

Cheers , Paul


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

thanks again chaps.


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

I think my problem is polarised due to the enormous logjam I have. Once I've got through all the stuff I've collected, been given, windfalls etc it should slow to a steady pace and won't be such a problem. For right now though I've got literally hundreds of blanks waiting to be cut from the log or be wasted so the scale is unprecedented.


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## CHJ (2 Apr 2014)

Woodmonkey":2n7plybt said:


> .. I've noticed the wax doesn't stick properly unless it's nice and hot.


Hence why I get mine just up to, or very close to, fuming point and let the moisture boil off the wood surface as steam, the wax then gets sucked into the surface pores as it cools.


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## Grahamshed (2 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":20ujztoq said:


> I think my problem is polarised due to the enormous logjam I have. Once I've got through all the stuff I've collected, been given, windfalls etc it should slow to a steady pace and won't be such a problem. For right now though I've got literally hundreds of blanks waiting to be cut from the log or be wasted so the scale is unprecedented.


Why is there no emoticon for 'purses lips, raises eyebrows, smiles and shakes head all at the same time while slowly turning green' ?


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## Spindle (2 Apr 2014)

Hi

Rather than going straight to individual blanks it can make sense to board your stock if you have the facility - stack with sticks and seal the ends.

Regards Mick


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## Dalboy (2 Apr 2014)

I try and get logs in 6' lengths seal the ends this is great as I can then store them until I am ready to rough turn and reseal. I use emulsion paint to seal as soon as I get home


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

I do seal the log ends too Dal. Trouble is they don't dry very quickly when kept in the round
And Mike. I agree that storing the timber in sticker'd boards is ideal. Then I could use it for furniture as well ie I have more options. It's also a lot easier to store because I have limitless outside storage in which I can improvise cover

In fact to that end I've been reviewing Alaskan mills after PaulM and I discussed it some time ago. He uses one and I have no doubt they are the right way to go. Just don't own one yet. Also some of the timber I get in the round is just too small to bother milling in that way. Further the kerf sizes do waste a lot of sometimes very valuable and rare timber. (Walnut and Laburnum being cases in point)

So it's not an either or for me, rather it's both.


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## jonbee56 (2 Apr 2014)

Apologies here for hijacking the thread

I've started using PVA on a 50/50 water dilution. Will it really matter or should it be 100%PVA


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

I've experimented (a little) with dilution of the PVA and I found it just gets too runny to stick to the surface in any decent amount if I dilute any more than by about 10%. I can't say how that performs as a water slowing down agent ie is it still doing its intended job but I notice the blank ends look a lot less shiny (once dry) if you dilute much more than that. 
I'm taking that shininess to mean the end is sealed well and therefore slowing down water loss.

But like I said there's no way I've measured the difference in any way other than anecdotally so I could be completely wrong.


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## Grahamshed (2 Apr 2014)

When you buy ready prepared blanks ( and I have done so from more than one place ) they are WAX covered. I'm guessing they do that rather than PVA/paint/whatever for a reason, be it effectiveness, simplicity or a mixture of both.


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

I bet its related to drying time. Because the hot wax solidifies very quickly as it cools, the blanks can be stored efficiently with little mess


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## Soylent1 (2 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":27jlcq0z said:


> Thanks Tony. Just one thing, you mention that its more expensive in pellet form, how else does it come?



Sorry for the late reply Bob, I think this question has been answered by other members? 

If you do decide to use wax & cooker, and have any questions I'd be happy to help. I don't have many skills but sealing things in wax used to be my thing ( I really am that sad  ), and full of useless information on the subject. For example if you give the blank a light dusting of talc before sealing It'll make stripping the wax about a million times easier :wink: :wink: 

Tony


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

Wow Tony....you are THE wax man 

Did you used to be the curator of madame Tussauds by any chance?


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## bobblezard (2 Apr 2014)

Hi Bob,

YEs I think this is the way forward, I recently bought 5kg from a local craft shop (£20.99) and used an old stock pot and a camping stove to start sealing and as you say it makes large batches lots quicker and cleaner to deal with. 

One tip I picked up from another thread was to melt the first layer in with a blow torch and then rewax to ensure good penetration and protection. Not sure this if is overkill but I've tried it with a few pieces that look awkward and that I really want to give the best chance of making it to the lathe.

Good luck, Bob 8)


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## Soylent1 (2 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":yocvhrqo said:


> Wow Tony....you are THE wax man
> 
> Did you used to be the curator of madame Tussauds by any chance?




Unfortunately not, but I always seem to end up working with a load of dummies   

Tony


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## Woodmonkey (2 Apr 2014)

> One tip I picked up from another thread was to melt the first layer in with a blow torch



I would be wary about using a blow torch on it, paraffin wax is flammable is it not?


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## Soylent1 (2 Apr 2014)

+1 for the above!
I would be very careful using a naked flame anywhere near it, It's quite volatile when in liquid form. Also there's no reason to have it over about 70 degrees maximum for sealing.


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

Soylent1":1fmnxj7l said:


> Random Orbital Bob":1fmnxj7l said:
> 
> 
> > Wow Tony....you are THE wax man
> ...



=D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

Soylent1":2x6vg2de said:


> +1 for the above!
> I would be very careful using a naked flame anywhere near it, It's quite volatile when in liquid form. Also there's no reason to have it over about 70 degrees maximum for sealing.



I rather thought Chas's idea of heating the wax to fuming point and then seeing off any water vapour near the edge to be sealed sounded sensible? That would mean the wax would suck into the pores better and the seal would be more effective don't you think?

Also were you in the British Antarctic survey or something? Wondering why you needed to wax core samples....samples of what core?


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## Wybrook (2 Apr 2014)

Not sure sealing ice cores with hot wax would be too effective ! Cue one big puddle :lol:


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

LOL...you have a point


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## Spindle (2 Apr 2014)

Hi

The method Chas describes is the one I've seen used and would use myself. I would take the necessary precautions with regard to the fire risk as I do when welding or grinding in the garage.

Talc to make the wax removal easier, does that really work on wood? I'm of the opinion life's too short to worry about recycling 5ps worth of wax.

Regards Mick


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## Random Orbital Bob (2 Apr 2014)

what fire precautions do you take when grinding Mick?


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## Soylent1 (2 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":d7gudc4z said:


> Soylent1":d7gudc4z said:
> 
> 
> > +1 for the above!
> ...



I haven't ever sealed any wood with wax, so I'm not saying Chas's method is wrong, it's probably the way to go if you want to get a good seal on the first dip. But I have always found that if you fail to get an adequate seal on the first coat, pin holes etc.. then just another quick dip after the first layer has solidified is usually sufficient, if not then try a third coat. It might take a minute or so longer but it means you can have your wax at a lower temperature.

I used to work for an independent materials testing laboratory. Not as glamorous as the Antarctic survey


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## Spindle (2 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":3v5v29mi said:


> what fire precautions do you take when grinding Mick?



Hi

Fire extinguisher to hand - no flammable materials in the line of fire - don't leave the garage unattended for at least half an hour after I've finished grinding.

I was actually referring to angle grinding but it would apply equally, (though perhaps with a shorter 'wait' time), if I used an offhand grinder in the garage.

Regards Mick


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## Random Orbital Bob (3 Apr 2014)

righto...so its stray sparks igniting dust etc you're mitigating against


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## Grahamshed (3 Apr 2014)

I did wonder about that. I have positioned my pro edge right next to the lathe on the basis that if it was quick and easy to get at I would use it more often. That did mean that the sparks were going into the surrounding shavings [-X


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## CHJ (3 Apr 2014)

Grahamshed":4sj4mh1h said:


> I did wonder about that. I have positioned my pro edge right next to the lathe on the basis that if it was quick and easy to get at I would use it more often. That did mean that the sparks were going into the surrounding shavings [-X




You also need to take care not to contaminate any Oak turnings or cloths etc. used for finishing it. 
Steel and Oak tannins have a habit of making an unattractive finish if any moisture gets to them.

And on the basis of belt sanders for sharpening, the Pro edge is a relatively open construction and not normally used for wood resulting in low risk, but using the general shop Belt and Disc sander to sharpen steel is a higher risk scenario if you don't clean out any fine wood dust in the nooks and crannies regularly.


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## Grahamshed (3 Apr 2014)

CHJ":1nxd3hw5 said:


> Grahamshed":1nxd3hw5 said:
> 
> 
> > I did wonder about that. I have positioned my pro edge right next to the lathe on the basis that if it was quick and easy to get at I would use it more often. That did mean that the sparks were going into the surrounding shavings [-X
> ...



As you say, the pro edge is open and is only for sharpening. I was referring to the sparks seeming to go down into the shavings that had accumulated on the floor. I am not sure if they were still hot when they got there ( I kept as close an eye as I could for a while  )


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## Tazmaniandevil (3 Apr 2014)

If I'm using the angle grinder I usually give it a good half hour before leaving the garage. I once had a corner full of cobwebs start smouldering on me. If possible, I do any grinding or welding outside.
My bench grinder is (hopefully) far enough away from the lathe to be safe, but usually spend at least half an hour sweeping up and tidying tools away before locking up, just in case.
It does no harm to keep a fire extinguisher near to hand, and a fire blanket takes up very little space.


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## petercharlesfagg (3 Apr 2014)

CHJ":3abmdw6t said:


> I use old candles and keep an eye open for bargain bin sell offs.
> I heat wax to fuming point in a large pan and if blank or log end will fit in I immerse for a few seconds and let water vapor boil off a little then lift out. Round blanks get edges rolled in it.
> If too big for pan or picking up I paint hot wax on with bristle brush.



I used to go the same way apart from using an electric hot plate with a tray with raised edges (1 inch high minimum, a roasting tin is good) then chuck in all the old candles I could beg from family, neighbours etc.

Ensure the wax is HOT!  Do not stick you finger in it to check!

Use a piece of *Green wood* to test and if it sizzles then do not get it hotter!

Dip all the cut logs or roll your blanks, GENTLY, in the wax. Take it slowly or else hot wax goes everywhere!

It is by far the cheapest and most effective option.

Regards, Peter.


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