# WoodRat versus the new Router Boss



## aldel (2 Feb 2008)

Hi folks,

I don't know if there are still any WoodRat users amongst the members here now but I thought you may like to know about a new competitor that will soon be available.
The Router Boss from the Craftsman Gallery looks like it will address all the little problems that the WoodRat had and be even more versatile too. Martin Godfrey now has some serious competition.
Lewis has allowed me to post some excellent engineering renderings on my 'Rat site http://www.aldel.co.uk/Router_Boss.htm.
I would be interested to hear your comments.

Aldel


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## wizer (2 Feb 2008)

Wow with all that green you might be fooled into thinking this is a Festool product!

Looks interesting.


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## TheTiddles (2 Feb 2008)

Finally!

The woodrat advertises that it's 'designed by woodworkers' and it shows. As an engineer I'm delighted to see a product that appears to be 'designed by engineers'

When will you be getting a freebie Adel?

Aidan


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## Philly (2 Feb 2008)

Wow! Look forward to seeing a review!
Philly  
_a Rat user still_


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## Chris Knight (2 Feb 2008)

Looks pretty exciting!

Just shows what happens when a company resolutely refuses to listen to the marketplace - someone will eat your lunch.


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## wizer (2 Feb 2008)

waterhead37":2n3i427y said:


> someone will eat your lunch.



I hate it when that happens...


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## Harbo (2 Feb 2008)

It looks interesting and probably expensive?
Cannot see me upgrading to it from from my Rat though - I do not use it enough to justify the outlay!

Rod


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## woodshavings (3 Feb 2008)

It does look interesting - particularly the improved fixing capability.
Look forward to a Adel review! 

(Still a RAT user) John
PS I wonder if the WR patents apply and have been ignored or it is sufficiently different......


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## RogerM (3 Feb 2008)

Harbo":19qzzw60 said:


> It looks interesting and probably expensive? ..........
> 
> Rod



$699 - $799 based on length of beam so broadly in line with the WR. Bet that it will cost the same number of £'s tho' when imported into the UK. I wonder how heavy it is and how much excess baggage I'd have to pay to buy one on holiday and bring it home?


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## Anonymous (3 Feb 2008)

RogerM":oarax7yj said:


> Harbo":oarax7yj said:
> 
> 
> > It looks interesting and probably expensive? ..........
> ...



As most tools come in at the same in pounds as dollars, the new machine will be much more expensive than a rat

As a rat owner, i am really quite disappointed with its many failings (i do mean many) and if this new machine is designed and engineered properly, then there may well be a 2nd hand woodrat for sale soon :wink:


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## BradNaylor (3 Feb 2008)

I don't own a Woodrat - I've never used one. In fact I've never seen one!

However, I've read a fair bit about it on here and on other sites and the concept interests me. I get the distinct impression though, that the Woodrat's innovative basic design is badly let down by problems with build quality and idiosyncratic functionality.

I'd be interested in this new product if I could be assured that it could withstand the day to day punishment of a professional workshop. The Woodrat seems never to have been more than an occasional hobbyist's tool. 

Thoughts, anyone?


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## Escudo (3 Feb 2008)

I have a woodrat, and have found it to be very handy. I don't have room for a router table and would be lost without my rat for trenching, grooving etc. Not to mention the joint making capabilities.

I have been meaning to make a jig to improve work holding options, the new machine may provide some design clues and ideas.

Tony.


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## Harbo (3 Feb 2008)

Tony - better get selling soon 'cause if the new machine comes out "tops" the price of S/H Rats will plummet!! 

Rod :lol:


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## mpooley (4 Feb 2008)

I had a rat years ago but got rid because of clamping problems.
This looks good but im surprised they can get away with it as it looks like a complete rip off to me. :shock:


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## SketchUp Guru (4 Feb 2008)

I heard a rumor that the patent on the Rat has run out. I'll be interested to see more about the Boss, too.


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## Chris Knight (4 Feb 2008)

Dave,
I see that Henry Godfrey has answered your post over at the Woodrat forum with a pathetic little bleat!


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## SketchUp Guru (4 Feb 2008)

I saw that, too. :roll:


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## Gary (4 Feb 2008)

Dave R":1hih1tut said:


> I saw that, too. :roll:



Likewise, hardly sounds like fighting talk form Woodrat. A slip up with patents me thinks and someone else has grabbed at a free corner in the market. We can but hope Woodrat will reduce their prices to remain competitive. :lol:


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## Anonymous (4 Feb 2008)

Gary":2svx0gkr said:


> . We can but hope Woodrat will reduce their prices to remain competitive. :lol:



I'm not sure that this would help them. The WoodRat is flawed in many areas due to poor design. Looks to me that the new one could have fixed the main issues and so one will not have to replace the jaws and and make loads of jigs so the thing is usable :wink: :lol:

When I received my 'Rat, i thought I'd bought a kit and it was up to me to finish it off :wink: 
Once I had made a set of jigs, made new aluminium clamps and clamp guides, made some adjsutale jaws for the clamps, fitted a method of measuring position, made and fitted a precision stop (all are posted on here in detail), it proved to be a very useful joint cutter that *occasionally is invaluable.* 

Still use the router table much more often than the Rat though........


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## SketchUp Guru (4 Feb 2008)

I went back to read Henry's edited response. I'm dispapointed in him for making a comment like that. It sounds like sour grapes to me. From the images I've been able to see of the Router Boss, it seems to have little in common beyond appearance. The carriage appears to ride on better guides, the router mount is more flexible as far as setting angles of movement. There's no left hand clamp and the thing will be available in different lengths to suit.

I guess I'll wait to see when the Boss is released.

Currently I wouldn't be without my WoodRat. Well, unless I can replace it with something better. The only thing I've seen so far that promises to be better is the Boss. I guess we'll see.


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## aldel (5 Feb 2008)

This morning I noticed that Henry's remarks on the WoodRat forum have been edited again!!


I have now had time to fully investigate the proposed engineering of the Router Boss and although at first glance it may have some passing resemblance to the WoodRat, it is in fact different in every way. Only one fence, totally different I-beam, alloy plate, sliding rules, positive 1/2 degree adjustable stops, larger T-track and completely different clamping system. Dovetails are cut in a unique way and even the plunge assist bar is totally different to WoodRat's plunge bars. 
The sliding bar will be available in three different lengths and with totally new bearings, it will be adjustable to remove any play. Front and rear dust collection and electronic scales for super accuracy if you want it.
So it seems to me that this is a unique design with operating methods that are not the same as on a WoodRat. In my view to call it a copy would be inaccurate and wish Lewis all success.

My worry is the likely cost of the Router Boss in the UK as quality gear is going to cost us dearly with all our taxes.

I think it is an opportunity for WoodRat to get their act together and drop the Pathfinder designs and fix the channel and carriage rattle. New alloy fences as standard. Listen to customer suggestions and ideas. Reduce not increase prices and then they would be really competitive.
Could they not swallow their pride and sell and distribute for Lewis?!


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## jaymar (5 Feb 2008)

First let me say I have never used a wood rat. I have read many posts on the subject though and get the feeling that the Rat is very much overpriced. If that is the case there seems to me no reason that a competitor will force down the price of both products.


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## Nick Gibbs (5 Feb 2008)

In calling ourselves British Woodworking I feel some responsibility to support British engineering and innovation. It is no surprise that there's a rival to the WoodRat, and in some ways even Martin Godfrey will welcome the competition, however painful it may feel now. 

We are talking to an American colleague to get a look at the Router Boss, but I'd hope woodworkers can be as supportive of Martin's efforts as possible. We all live in a global society these days, and that's brought many of us huge benefits, but I think there is a place for a little positive discrimination to help local industries that face rivals from larger, lower-cost economies. Otherwise we get subsumed and lose our ability to fend for ourselves.

I'm the first to applaud a good idea from anywhere in the world. We've tested the Gifkins Dovetail Jig from Australia this issue and it is absolutely fantastic. But I know the struggles Martin has endured to get the WoodRat where it is now. I understand from my own experiences how frustrating it is to know that your product could be even better if there weren't quite so many challenges to overcome. 

All the best to you Martin, and we will do what we can to support WoodRat, a product that has given so many woodworkers so much enjoyment over the years, and ok, a spot of heartache here and there. 

Cheers

Nick


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## SketchUp Guru (5 Feb 2008)

jaymar":svfo58b2 said:


> ...and get the feeling that the Rat is very much overpriced.



I guess I don't see the Rat as overpriced. Add up what you would need to spend to buy commercially available equipment to do variably spaced dovetails, sliding dovetails, mortises, tenons, dadoes, rebates, tongue and groove joinery, dowels, etc. And then consider the cost of the space to store and use them. A tool like the WoodRat and now the Router Boss doesn't look so bad.


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## SketchUp Guru (5 Feb 2008)

Good on you Nick. I think Martin deserves to be supported. He has developed an excellent product. Hopefully having a little competition will give him the push to make it even better.




Nick Gibbs":11u0jrdo said:


> In calling ourselves British Woodworking I feel some responsibility to support British engineering and innovation. It is no surprise that there's a rival to the WoodRat, and in some ways even Martin Godfrey will welcome the competition, however painful it may feel now.
> 
> We are talking to an American colleague to get a look at the Router Boss, but I'd hope woodworkers can be as supportive of Martin's efforts as possible. We all live in a global society these days, and that's brought many of us huge benefits, but I think there is a place for a little positive discrimination to help local industries that face rivals from larger, lower-cost economies. Otherwise we get subsumed and lose our ability to fend for ourselves.
> 
> ...


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## Chris Knight (5 Feb 2008)

I have had my rat since the year dot, It was quite expensive but I have had my money's worth from it. What disappointed me was the way the Martin Godfrey steadfastly refused to respond to the customers many legitimate criticisms and often excellent suggestions. In the early days at least he gave the impression that if you had a view that the Woodrat could be improved then you were just too thick to understand it properly.


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## Nick Gibbs (5 Feb 2008)

I am seeing Martin in a couple of weeks' time and will ask him about the development of the WoodRat: what's gone well, what's gone not so well. If there's anything specific you'd like me to ask, just say so.

Cheers

Nick


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## Anonymous (5 Feb 2008)

Nick Gibbs":3pbfmwg5 said:


> I am seeing Martin in a couple of weeks' time and will ask him about the development of the WoodRat: what's gone well, what's gone not so well. If there's anything specific you'd like me to ask, just say so.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Nick



New clamps - aluminium, not plastic (there was 0.5mm deflection on mine due to poor manufacturing tolerances, material choice and slop).
Improve the 'T' pieces that hold the clamps.
Lose the rattle and play in the carriage.
Replace the plastic strip that guides the carriage (I seem to recall that this might have been done on later models).
Sort out the horizontal drive which often slips if the wood being machined is tightish against the router support.
Add measuring scales for X and Y positioning.
Supply two stops on the cross traverse.
Add adjustable stops to both sides of the Y traverse.
Re-design the way it cuts dovetails, losing that button and using the aluminium cross guides.
Make the router plate out of thicker Phenolic or some more rigid material (less flex when moving the router in and out)
Lose that ridiculous brush and supply proper work holding jigs.
Drop the price by at least £100

Listen to the users and look at the plethora of additions and changes they have made to the Rat to make it work well. 

Accept that not every user wants to work with bits of blutac and a pencil and some want to actually measure cuts using accurate scales and pointers on the machine.

The woodrat is potentially a good machine but it is only partially designed and finished in my (professional engineer) opinion and a lot of work was needed on mine before I could use it with any confidence in its accuracy.


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## beech1948 (5 Feb 2008)

Tony,

A great list. I don't have a woodrat but have used one belonging to a colleague.

Your posting the list in a place thats not too visible to the designer of woodrat.

Maybe this whole tread should be copied to woodrat.com.

regards
alan


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## TheTiddles (5 Feb 2008)

yeah, competition, it's a pipper, keeps forcing you to develop new and better products, life would be much easier if you were the only manufacturer of a particular concept, maybe a router based jointing machine, for example. Then you could keep your product mostly the same for years and ask a really, really high price for it.

I have a little rat, the concept is excellent, it works great, I'm a master engineer with a virtually limitless supply of materials like engineering plastics and screws, I feel sorry for anyone who wanted it to work as well as it should straight out of the box. 

Take the 'Rat, sprinkle a little Incra over it, season with some shims, sliding bearing surfaces and some better screws (christ, how little can you pay for screws?), beat the plastic bits to death, they are terrible quality, mix in some creative ideas with other people's experience and you're really getting there, looks like somebody has...

Aidan


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## stewart (5 Feb 2008)

I also am a 'rat owner - but not from an engineering background or profession. I've been on one of Woodrat's courses and found it very useful at seeing the potential of the machine. It seems there are quite a few 'rat owners on the forum who have had to make modifications and tried to pass their frustration at the 'rat's 'foibles'/'inaccuracies' onto the Godfreys without much success.

Perhaps this latest development would be a chance to collect all those modifications that people have made into one place? I remember some time ago reading Tony's post about his new fences but not having access to the materials he used was a bit frustrating for me.

Does anyone have details/pictures of modifications they have made that don't feature on aldel's excellent site that they could post?


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## Anonymous (5 Feb 2008)

beech1948":3ix01mtp said:


> Tony,
> 
> Your posting the list in a place thats not too visible to the designer of woodrat.
> 
> ...



True Alan, but I am not a member of the woodrat forum and have no desire to join. The context of my post is that Nick Gibbs is talking to Martin and will hopefully pass on my list - martin does not take constructive criticism well though :lol:


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## SketchUp Guru (5 Feb 2008)

stewart":21fh3r5h said:


> Does anyone have details/pictures of modifications they have made that don't feature on aldel's excellent site that they could post?



Stewart, I haven't built this one but I also don't think it is on Aldel's site yet. I designed this for someone who wanted to be able to clamp up larger panels for raising than the Rat's channel could handle moving. I drew it with the face at an angle because at the time I was drawing it, I was thinking of Martin's demonstration of panel raising with a straight bit. It could be built with the rail vertical or even adjustable.


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## stewart (5 Feb 2008)

Very nice, Dave - now that needs a long wall!


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## SketchUp Guru (5 Feb 2008)

Thank you. I don't have a wall that long but I think you should build this thing.


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## stewart (5 Feb 2008)

Fortunately I don't need a raised panel that size...yet


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## SketchUp Guru (5 Feb 2008)

stewart":1u0b1ozr said:


> Fortunately I don't need a raised panel that size...yet



That's no excuse!   :lol:


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## ivan (6 Feb 2008)

If MG had produced his Woordat identical to the new all digital Routerboss, I wouldn't have bought one. Clever, yes, but I much prefer a non digital machine. I'm happy providing my own scales, but do consider the Nylon fences a mistake (so does MG, he's brought back Ali ones), and I do wish he'd paid a bit more attention to the linear "bearings". The original style ali-angle routerplate guide rails stiffen the plate adequately for me, but were an extra. Now they're just flat bar and to my mind not rigid enough.

I had a long talk with MG at a Shepton Mallet show last November(?) and he seemed to think his critics were all retired engineers who want to turn the woodrat into a milling machine, which it's not intended to be, (he said) I said if it were we probably couldn't afford it, and anyway I prefer to cut to a line when working wood, not a readout.

The new Ali fences are more versatile with T slots, and the new mitre box works, but isn't yet for sale.


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## SketchUp Guru (6 Feb 2008)

While I'm not a critic of the Rat, I did make several suggestions to Martin in the way of improving small aspects of the machine. My suggestions would have cost him very little and would have made the machine much more friendly to people who haven't got a lot of experience with it. I was rebuffed.

I still like the machine and use it regularly, even for milling plastic, but I wish Martin weren't so resistant to those who were trying to help make it better. Had he actually paid attention to us, he'd have realized we aren't all "retired engineers who want to turn the woodrat into a milling machine." There are plenty of plain old woodworkers who have had good ideas to make improvements. We were just ignored. :roll:


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## Anonymous (6 Feb 2008)

I'm not a 'retired engineers who want to turn the woodrat into a milling machine.', I'm a working engineer (not machinist - there is a vast difference) and want the WoodRat to be what it should, and could, have been had Godfrey listened to its users over the years.

The concept is very good, the problems are all in the details.

As for using the Rat, I find that it gets used maybe once every couple of months (mainly because of the necessity t fit/make jigs each time I want to use it and one cannot cut DTs without taking the aluminium guides off) whereas the router table gets used once a week


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## beech1948 (6 Feb 2008)

I think that MG should stop his bleating and respond like a business man.
1) Take them to court if possible but don't waste time if not
2) Get several users from this forum to spend a day discussing product improvements
3) Put in place an upgrade path and do it rapidly
4) Reduce the price as the current price is too much for relatively small value..something the Router Boss will suffer from also I think just like other expensive Leigh and Trend jigs.

but will he ( MG) have the nouse to do this.
alan


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## RoyS (6 Feb 2008)

Hi - 'Admin' on the Woodrat Forum posted this morning, drawing attention to a Feedback Form, which is at http://woodrat.com/feedbackform.html.

I suggest posters here take the opportunity to make their views known directly.

I write as a Woodrat owner who admires the concept but cannot believe that 
a scrubbing brush should have a role in my workshop.

best wishes - Roy


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## ivan (6 Feb 2008)

I know what you mean (brush) but it works amazingly well. I now have a brush for the router table too!


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## Chris Knight (6 Feb 2008)

The brush is actually a very good thing and an improvement on a poorly made featherboard any time!

However, I think I might have spotted one of WR's problems - they see things differently, judging by this photo from their website :lol:


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## motownmartin (6 Feb 2008)

Well spotted Chris :lol:


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## SketchUp Guru (6 Feb 2008)

waterhead37":24iyufe9 said:


> The brush is actually a very good thing and an improvement on a poorly made featherboard any time!
> 
> However, I think I might have spotted one of WR's problems - they see things differently, judging by this photo from their website :lol:



I agree. I like the brush, too. Very smart thing. It works better than the BenchDog plastic featherboards I bought.

Chris, I've seen that, too. Made me laugh but the shot makes sense. It would be hard to tell that the center pins are different from the outer ones if the board was turned around.


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## aldel (6 Feb 2008)

Ok I'll hold my hand up. I initially thought the brush was a poor idea but it works very well indeed.

Well spotted Dave! Some time ago I noticed the drawing was "wrong", However I did not notice that the middle pins were recessed so the picture does make sense even though the pin board should be the other way around.
Just shows how the eye can be deceived.


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## ivan (6 Feb 2008)

> they see things differently, judging by this photo from their website



Wonderful!!!

As you say, Tony, the devil's in the detail; thoughtful users have made their own corrections. Ideally we shouldn't have to, all about balance of features and price points I suppose.


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## TheTiddles (6 Feb 2008)

'Retired engineers'??! :shock: 

I'm a working engineer who earns so much money doing it I can even afford a WoodRat, so there! :lol: 

Aidan


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