# Advice concerning chisels



## Carl P (14 Sep 2013)

Hi Everyone,

Unusually, thanks to good luck with carboot/ebay, I am in the rather odd position of not only having a chisel that's the right width, but also the possibility of being either bevel edged or straight sided. So the question is, straight or bevel edged for firmers - what are the advantages/disadvantages, and when does a bevel edged chisel become a dovetail chisel?

At the moment I have no intention of getting any mortice chisels, so I'm thinking of keeping straight sided firmers and dovetail chisels as a good compromise for small mortices, general hacking and fiddly stuff.

Any advice gratefully received,

Cheerio,

Carl


----------



## Cheshirechappie (16 Sep 2013)

With one or two exceptions, there isn't really much difference in function or performance between straight-sided and bevel-edged chisels. I think traditionally, joiners tended to use straight-sided firmers, and cabinetmakers leaned towards bevel-edged, but that wasn't a hard and fast rule by any means. 

However, not all bevel-edged chisels are equal - some have finer lands than others, and are therefore capable of getting tighter into angled cuts such as those found on dovetails. Some 'bevel-edged' chisels (most modern ones) are little more than straight-sided firmers with the top corners ground off, leaving lands of 2 - 3 mm depth, so are rather less able to clean right into sharp angles. For most woodworking other than fine dovetail work, that doesn't really matter very much. As long as your chisels take and hold a sharp edge, and are comfortable and balanced to use, you'll get most things done just fine.

Since most modern b/e chisels don't have fine lands, some of the niche manufacturers have started to offer specialist 'dovetail chisels' specifically to allow the cleaning up of dovetails right into the angles. Very nice they are too - and with a price tag to match. However, a good quality vintage bevel-edged chisel with nice, fine lands will do that job just as well. You don't need that many, either - a couple of small ones, a couple of medium ones and a couple of biggish will cover all evenualities - say 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" and 1 1/4". (Chris Schwarz in 'The Anarchist's Tool Chest' reckons you can do just about everything with these sizes, and some people say even this number is more than you really need.)

On morticing, there is a good argument for finding a proper mortice chisel. A bevel-edged chisel would not be ideal here - the thin edges would leave a raggy side to the mortice. It's perfectly true that mortices can be cut with firmer chisels, but sinking a mortice involves some fairly brutal chopping and (perhaps more pertinently) levering out of waste, which a heavy-duty specialist mortice chisel is built to do, but which can be rather too much for standard bench chisels, especially in the harder woods. Since much furniture work tends to use 1" sawn timber planed to about 3/4", and the recommended size of a mortice is about 1/3 stock thickness, you can do an awful lot of furniture work with only one mortice size - 1/4". If you propose to do joinery work such as replacement doors or window frames for the house, you'll need a couple of larger sizes - say 3/8" and 1/2" - but you can always pick those up off Ebay if you need them.

If I were starting again, I'd aim for about 5 or 6 fine-landed b/e chisels ranging from 1/8" to 1 1/4", a few straight-sided firmers for general chopping duties, and a 1/4" mortice chisel. I'd add to that collection a couple of out-cannel gouges and maybe a couple of long paring chisels, but only if and when I felt I needed them for a specific project.

Hope that helps!


----------



## woodbrains (16 Sep 2013)

Hello,

Cheshirechappie has pretty much covered it all. I am always baffled why BE chisels of the common thick land variety, are as popular as they are. They are neither fish nor fowl. Better to have a set of straight sided firmers, or registered mortice chisels and some really fine BE chisels. It is almost as if manufactures of BE chisels try and produce a general purpose tool, but are not good for mortices and cannot do dovetails without either modification or some other skew/fishtail chisel to actually complete the joint. Actually, I know the answer; chisels with fine lands are harder to make, so most don't really bother. Good firmer chisels should not have fallen out of favour, though, to the point that they are hardly manufactured now.

Mike.


----------



## adzeman (16 Sep 2013)

I certainly need the beveled chisel for working on dove tails and my large/old bevelled pairing chisel answers to its name of My favourite chisel.


----------



## Carl P (16 Sep 2013)

Cheshirechappie & Woodbrains,

Thank you very much for your replies, I have very little space so having more chisels than I need is not really an option. I suspected that the differences in use would be small so, straight sided firmers will stay as will a few dovetail chisels, and I will now also get a couple of mortice chisels of around 1/4", maybe more if and when the need arises. Thanks once again for your replies, really helped me to sort out my, sometimes conflicting, thoughts.

Cheerio,


Carl


----------



## Jacob (16 Sep 2013)

Firmers make good dovetail chisels if you shape the end a bit. In fact you only ever really need one - for small DTs and the corners of bigger DTs.
This was an ordinary old Sorby firmer about 3/16":


----------



## woodbrains (16 Sep 2013)

Hello,

You haven't been tool fettling, have you, Jacob? 

Actually this is a good mod and much the same as you would have to do to BE chisels with thick lands, to get them to work as they should. It is a pity that manufactures don't get them right. It can be fun to modify tools, but not everyone wants to do it. Ashley Iles do really good BE chisels which are as they should be, for a reasonable price. I cannot think of any others that are better for less money. Narex are almost there and very good value, though. Used ones are a good bet if modifying is something you like doing, if you cannot get what you need exactly.

Mike.


----------



## Carl P (16 Sep 2013)

Thanks once again - for some reason I hadn't realised that only the end of the chisel needs to be bevelled, I'm certainly not averse to modifying - especially the 2nd hand ones that have generally cost £1 or less, so something else to think about,

Cheerio,


Carl


----------



## G S Haydon (16 Sep 2013)

A very concise answer by CC! 
I would like to defend the modern bevel edge chisels with heavy lands.
I'm not sure which is the largest segment of the chisel buying population? "joiner" "carpenter" "cabinet maker" "DIY". I sometimes think we can loose sight that not all people want to make very fine joinery or become very fine cabinet makers. 
I think the modern beveled firmers with heavy lands make a very good general purpose tool. Almost all the "joinery" "carpentry" tradespeople I know have the beveled firmers and I never hear once a complaint of "my chisels don't work I wish I had smaller lands". I have only ever used modern beveled firmers and for the work I do they are excellent.
I also read a post somewhere which posed the question "why are metal strike caps added". Why not, if you don't like them don't buy them, they were never aimed at cabinet makers anyway (just wood butchers like me (hammer) ). 
We are in a rich vein of tool options these days from the cheapest imported good to superb high end choices. Just because a chisel does not comply with a design from days of yore does not render them pointless. Simply it is for the buyer and user of the tool to weigh up what the want to use them for and buy accordingly.
I rest my case


----------



## Jacob (17 Sep 2013)

The main thing is to get free of the dental surgery idea of woodwork - piece of wood strapped down anaesthetised under a bright light, with an assistant passing specialised tools for every little job, taking them away and sharpening them in laboratory conditions, etc etc
In fact with woodwork almost everything can be done with very few tools, including dovetails. If your three chisels are all firmers a knife can be used for those difficult corners of a socket. But a narrow firmer with a shallow bevel 25º ish will probably do it anyway, if presented at a skewed angle. The cut might not look perfect but it's out of sight anyway.

There are not many jobs where a bevel edge is _absolutely_ essential (can anyone think of an example?) and they can be managed without entirely. Sometimes they are convenient as you can see better what you are doing, but on the other hand they are a bit fragile at the corners of the edge and easily overheated if you grind them. Stick to firmers until you really need a bevel edge.


----------



## Racers (17 Sep 2013)

Or you could just buy your self some nice tools, you have to eat bland food.

Pete


----------



## Jacob (17 Sep 2013)

Racers":2vy79gae said:


> Pete, Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know
> It doesn't have to scream to cut wood
> 
> I killed my dinner with karate
> ...


Er, you have been going without food so that you can buy chisels? :lol:


----------



## Random Orbital Bob (17 Sep 2013)

I don't know for certain but I'll bet my gonads that the proliferation of mass market bevel edge chisels is to do with their ease and cheapness to manufacture.


----------



## Carl P (17 Sep 2013)

For me this thread is not about the quality of individual tools, after all a good quality firmer that has been reground to have fine lands _is_a nice tool, although it may be _easier_to buy one already that shape, but what are the best uses for them. As is often the case, it seems that it is not clear cut - a firmer with or without bevel edges is a good general purpose chisel. I think, as I now have more chisels than I have space for, I'll stick with straight sided with a few bevel edged, some reground to give fine lands, sell the rest on evilbay and put the proceeds towards a couple of mortice chisels. The ones I have are an eclectic mix of Marples, Sorby, Ward, Footprint etc, some of which required a large investment of time to grind past pitting etc (ended up using a belt sander) but that's OK, I love fiddling, sorry, fettling old tools!

Cheerio,

Carl


----------



## Corneel (17 Sep 2013)

G S Haydon":1gtsu672 said:


> A very concise answer by CC!
> I would like to defend the modern bevel edge chisels with heavy lands.
> I'm not sure which is the largest segment of the chisel buying population? "joiner" "carpenter" "cabinet maker" "DIY". I sometimes think we can loose sight that not all people want to make very fine joinery or become very fine cabinet makers.
> I think the modern beveled firmers with heavy lands make a very good general purpose tool. Almost all the "joinery" "carpentry" tradespeople I know have the beveled firmers and I never hear once a complaint of "my chisels don't work I wish I had smaller lands". I have only ever used modern beveled firmers and for the work I do they are excellent.



Completely right of course. But one wonders, why do Stanley, Bahco etc grind side bevels on their chisels, if it doesn't serve any purpose? They could save some costs, making straight sided firmers. I think it has alot to do with how the tool looks like. Carpenters, joiners and DIY-ers are nowadays used to the bevel edge look, so they won't buy a square one? Somewhere along the way, the bevel edged chisel became the norm and now they are always made like that.


----------



## Jacob (17 Sep 2013)

Corneel":2h4yxcdu said:


> ..... But one wonders, why do Stanley, Bahco etc grind side bevels on their chisels, if it doesn't serve any purpose? .....


It's what sells. People think bevel edges are better in some mysterious way and those old paring chisels certainly look nice! They equate finer chisels with finer woodwork. A little delusion - that's all there is to it I think.


----------



## AndyT (17 Sep 2013)

I don't want to go over old ground about grades of steel, but somewhere in all this is the difference between old steel and new. 

Go back a century to when 'cast steel' was the norm. If you wanted an all-round chisel you needed something relatively thick - so you bought a square edged chisel. If you needed something lighter and more delicate you bought one where quite a lot of the steel had been forged or ground away - a bevel edged chisel. But you could not expect to take a heavy cut with it - you'd risk snapping the fairly brittle chisel. 

Modern chisels are made of steel which is much tougher, so less likely to snap. You can have something strong enough to use as a general purpose chisel even if the edges have been ground back a bit. Overall, the thickness is a bit more than an old, delicate bevel edge, but almost all of the time the extra thickness won't be a problem. So we get true general purpose chisels tough enough to chop a big rebate but usable for common dovetails as well. Some people even chop mortices with them. 

The only time I can think of that you really need a fine land on your bevel edged chisel is when you are cutting really skinny dovetails (as found on old drawer sides) where the chisel is the same width as the cut, so must cut right into the corners without being held at an angle.


----------



## Corneel (17 Sep 2013)

A "semi" beveled chisel, so you need to skew the chisel a bit less then an old fashioned firmer, in a dovetail corner. Sounds reasonable.


----------



## Jacob (17 Sep 2013)

AndyT":14147hzf said:


> ......
> The only time I can think of that you really need a fine land on your bevel edged chisel is when you are cutting really skinny dovetails (as found on old drawer sides) where the chisel is the same width as the cut, so must cut right into the corners without being held at an angle.


Old drawer DTs are _always_ over cut with the saw - so the corners of pin holes, and the corners on the face of blind DT sockets (inside face of drawer side), don't need cleaning out. This leaves the inside corners of blind sockets but these are out of sight so a bit of untidy chiselling doesn't matter much, and in fact they are often untidy and undercut - I guess they didn't always have the _correct_ chisels!


----------



## woodbrains (17 Sep 2013)

Hello,

The over cutting on half blinds in drawers is more likely due to the speed they were done. There was a lot of piece work done in cabinet shops in the time when most of the 'ordinary' antiques we see were made. There was no time for slacking. I have a nice quality Victorian dressing table with 13 drawers in it. There is a lot of over cutting in it, but by no means on all the dovetails, or even a majority of them. It certainly wasn't done to make chiseling the waste easier, but I bet they were done at breakneck speed, though.

Skewing a chisel with heavy lands, in a half blind socket does not really work. The opposite corner of the chisel contacts the back of the socket before the corner we are trying to clear gets close. If chisels with heavy lands are all you have, a pair of skew chisels will be needed to get into the corners. Or else a custom grind as per Jacobs photo. It is amazing how tenacious the bits of waste in the corners can be at hanging on, unless attacked with a fine, sharp chisel, often from thee directions. It is also surprising how just a few crumbs of waste will stop the joint coming together.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (17 Sep 2013)

woodbrains":1nf2dnlv said:


> ....There is a lot of over cutting in it, but by no means on all the dovetails, or even a majority of them.


If you look more closely you would find they _all_ are, but on carefully done work you would hardly notice. It only has to be a gnat's thingy to work. _Not_ doing it just makes for more work and would be indicate inexperience if not found.


> It certainly wasn't done to make chiseling the waste easier,


Yes it was, and also to make the sawing easier of course. If you are having to chisel out the corners of pin holes basically you dunnit wrong!


> Skewing a chisel with heavy lands, in a half blind socket does not really work. The opposite corner of the chisel contacts the back of the socket before the corner we are trying to clear gets close. If chisels with heavy lands are all you have, a pair of skew chisels will be needed to get into the corners. .....


In actual practice it's head-down-brain-off and you get it done. If it's the "wrong" chisel it might not be tidy but nobody will know after it's all been glued together.


----------



## woodbrains (17 Sep 2013)

Hello,

Just had an good look at the drawers. I was actually being a bit harsh, there are several over cuts, but considering the total number of dovetails, not too bad, probably about 10% or so. The saw kerf is quite thin, too. The maker must have had a very good quality saw. Sorry I just don't believe that over cutting was intentional on cabinet work. I have read no text other than explaining that sawing should stop at the baseline and seen no evidence in good antiques. Poorer quality, rough and ready lash ups, perhaps, ( though I still doubt it, less able craftsmen produced inferior work, with all manner of errors) but I am not concerned about those.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (17 Sep 2013)

woodbrains":1iaas23h said:


> ..... I have read no text other than explaining that sawing should stop at the baseline and seen no evidence in good antiques. Poorer quality, rough and ready lash ups, perhaps, ....


You'd learn more if you looked at woodwork rather than texts. 
In good quality work it's done very carefully so that not even you would notice! :lol: 
It's such an easy and obvious little trick that to _not_ do it would be simply stupid.


----------



## woodbrains (17 Sep 2013)

Jacob":wb0oat89 said:


> In good quality work it's done very carefully so that not even you would notice! :lol:
> .



Hello,

In good work, it is done so carefully that they are not even there!

Mike.


----------



## G S Haydon (17 Sep 2013)

Completely right of course. But one wonders, why do Stanley, Bahco etc grind side bevels on their chisels, if it doesn't serve any purpose? They could save some costs, making straight sided firmers. I think it has alot to do with how the tool looks like. Carpenters, joiners and DIY-ers are nowadays used to the bevel edge look, so they won't buy a square one? Somewhere along the way, the bevel edged chisel became the norm and now they are always made like that.[/quote]



AndyT":6psblsmr said:


> I don't want to go over old ground about grades of steel, but somewhere in all this is the difference between old steel and new.
> 
> Go back a century to when 'cast steel' was the norm. If you wanted an all-round chisel you needed something relatively thick - so you bought a square edged chisel. If you needed something lighter and more delicate you bought one where quite a lot of the steel had been forged or ground away - a bevel edged chisel. But you could not expect to take a heavy cut with it - you'd risk snapping the fairly brittle chisel.
> 
> ...



I think I find common ground here. Like many things it's what you are used to. I find as a general purpose tool they work just fine. I have never craved an old school firmer yet. I find the beveled simply work. I have not had the time to buy firmers, and contrast them and I don't feel the need to. Stanley, Bacho, Faithfull, et al please carry on doing what your doing. They are very good tools for the job they were intended for.


----------



## charvercarver (17 Sep 2013)

Have to say most old dovetails I've seen have been over cut, I think they were regarded simply as efficent joinery back in the day. Anything that wasn't on display was not fussed over that much.


----------



## Jacob (18 Sep 2013)

charvercarver":3hpf0lmd said:


> Have to say most old dovetails I've seen have been over cut, I think they were regarded simply as efficent joinery back in the day. Anything that wasn't on display was not fussed over that much.


Agree.


woodbrains":3hpf0lmd said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just had an good look at the drawers......


One thing that's come out of this thread is that Mike has started looking at his own furniture - apparently for the first time! 
I'd say that anyone who claims to be interested in woodwork hasn't really begun until they've started looking at the stuff around them, taken out every drawer, crawled underneath, turned them around, up side down, shone a torch across a surface to see tool marks, etc. 
Cheap furniture is rewarding as there is more evidence left; on expensive stuff the joiner has usually made more effort to cover his tracks. 
Old and new - e.g. IKEA is good on design and economical construction.
The texts are just the tip of an enormous iceberg. There's masses of information out there.

Well done woodbrains - better late than never!


----------



## Corneel (18 Sep 2013)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_firley/sets/72157635404664767/

Here you can see pictures of over 400 dovetailed drawers and cases. It's a bit hard to see in a picture of course, but a lot of them are very obviously overcut, especially the drawers, but even in cases and chests where the dovetails are in plain view you can witness overcutting. 

I've looked around in my own house. My antique furniture is very modest, mostly pine cabinets, so probably not a very definitive reference. But, all the dovetails are overcut.

When something isn't mentioned in period book texts, it doesn't say it wasn't common trade practice. The books present the ideal case, how a teacher would learn it to his boys.


----------



## Jacob (18 Sep 2013)

Brilliant set of photos!
Even if you can't see an overcut you can be sure that nearly all of them will at least have the corner nicked by the saw to avoid having to clean up with a chisel. And similarly with other sawn joints. It's how it's done.


----------



## Racers (18 Sep 2013)

So we have to carry on doing things badly because that's how its always been done?
Do we still burn witches? and have rickets or the Derbyshire neck?

I would like to make my dovetails then best I can so I made my self one of these




Now I can get into the corners and remove the once difficult bits.

Pete


----------



## iNewbie (18 Sep 2013)

Jacob":3q91afgf said:


> Cheap furniture is rewarding as there is more evidence left; on expensive stuff the joiner has usually made more effort to cover his tracks.



At times you write the strangest stuff, Jacob.


----------



## Corneel (18 Sep 2013)

Racers":2omhmjmp said:


> So we have to carry on doing things badly because that's how its always been done?
> Do we still burn witches? and have rickets or the Derbyshire neck?



I guess it depends on the context. When you're a hobbyist you can do whatever you fancy. A professional, working at a fixed price, might look a bit different at this. At the other hand, there are not many professionals working under such time constrains with handtools anymore.


----------



## Jacob (18 Sep 2013)

iNewbie":153f3v47 said:


> Jacob":153f3v47 said:
> 
> 
> > Cheap furniture is rewarding as there is more evidence left; on expensive stuff the joiner has usually made more effort to cover his tracks.
> ...


Think about it. It's not so strange.


Racers":153f3v47 said:


> So we have to carry on doing things badly because that's how its always been done?
> Do we still burn witches? and have rickets or the Derbyshire neck?


You can do things how you like. 
But if you want to be quick and efficient with hand tools it's not a bad idea to take note of how the experts did things. Some things from the past are well worth taking note of (e.g. hand tool techniques) others best left behind (Derbyshire neck).


----------



## Phil Pascoe (18 Sep 2013)

I don't recall those beautiful, wide dovetails of Derek Cohen's work being over cut...


----------



## mseries (18 Sep 2013)

G S Haydon":1n17d9xo said:


> ..... I have never craved an old school firmer yet. I find the beveled simply work. I have not had the time to buy firmers, and contrast them and I don't feel the need to. ....



I am not a chisel enthusiast like some people are but I have recently had to use my chisels for some deep mortices that my router is not suitable for. I wasn't aware until recently what different shaped chisels were for and it's threads such as this that are educating me. So thanks chaps. 

My chisels are mostly old school firmers, from my old school actually - really, my Dad attended the tool sale for me when they closed the woodwork rooms before they demolished and rebuilt the school. I use these chisels for most things though my chiselling work isn't very extensive. I do own a couple of bevel edge chisels but to be honest I like the weight of the firmers.


----------



## Racers (18 Sep 2013)

Jacob":yfvizpnu said:


> iNewbie":yfvizpnu said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":yfvizpnu said:
> ...



Experts over cut do they? more like they would get a bollocking for being slow so did every thing fast so quality suffered, I believe its a great insult to a Japanese wood worker to be called slow.

I like the idea of being quick and efficient with hand tools but also doing something i can be proud of, over cutting isn't one.

Pete


----------



## Corneel (18 Sep 2013)

Something weird has happened. Somehow it is now sacrilage to show some honest handtool marks. We are so much used to machined perfection, anything less precise then a CNC machined piece of MDF with a sprayed gloss paint is looked down upon. The fact that the piece falls apart in 10 years time, or is out of fashion in half the time, is less important.

I'm exagerating of course. But apart from the perfect dovetail, there are other things to be proud about. A well designed piece for example. That's what buyers two centuries ago would look for. Not if the drawer dovetails were machine like executed. A little bit of tearout, or jack plane tracks inside a chest, noone would critique a piece for such work. For a cabinet maker at that time it was also a matter of being able to produce nice work in a timely fashion. That's something to be proud of too.


----------



## Corneel (18 Sep 2013)

If you don't want to overshoot the baseline, buy this one:

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...ey-auctions/catalogue-id-2874386/lot-19288399


----------



## MIGNAL (18 Sep 2013)

Everyone is so accustomed to products made on an industrial basis. It's as though the eye has been trained to look for the minor imperfection. Craftsmen are now 'chasing the laser' as someone succinctly put it. There's not a lot of beauty in perfection and if there is you quickly tire of it. It just doesn't have enough 'noise' to hold the attention. I'm fond of giving the Steinway Piano finish as a prime example: perfectly flat and perfectly glossy. Perfect and incredibly impressive on first sight. It holds the attention for a few seconds. It becomes very cold looking and boring within seconds. How to turn a warm looking material (wood) into a cold looking one that resembles plastic or glass.


----------



## CStanford (18 Sep 2013)

Corneel":qpickn3a said:


> Something weird has happened. Somehow it is now sacrilage to show some honest handtool marks. We are so much used to machined perfection, anything less precise then a CNC machined piece of MDF with a sprayed gloss paint is looked down upon. The fact that the piece falls apart in 10 years time, or is out of fashion in half the time, is less important.
> 
> I'm exagerating of course. But apart from the perfect dovetail, there are other things to be proud about. A well designed piece for example. That's what buyers two centuries ago would look for. Not if the drawer dovetails were machine like executed. A little bit of tearout, or jack plane tracks inside a chest, noone would critique a piece for such work. For a cabinet maker at that time it was also a matter of being able to produce nice work in a timely fashion. That's something to be proud of too.



Well said. One certainly doesn't have to look hard for examples of flawless dovetails applied to designs of rectilinear box projects I'd be reluctant to bury a deceased stray dog in. Fugly comes to mind, but oh, look at the dovetails. A British fellow recently made a blog post showing some quickly made chests using clinched nails that frankly have more warmth and soul and are much more inviting than some recent ill-proportioned and sterile works I've seen with overwrought hand-cut dovetails.

Art imitates life, or vice-versa, or art imitates the Leigh jig. Not sure which of the three....


----------



## woodbrains (18 Sep 2013)

Hello,

WOW! Some of you people are so good at writing tommy rot, you are actually suceeding in deluding yourselves. Over cutting is a result of speed, pure and simple. The baseline was aimed for as you should, but speed resulted in some error. That is all. It has nothing to do with some myth that it was done on purpose to facilitate the waste removal. Better craftsmen over cut less, some absolutely awful stuff done by less able wood butchers had lots of overcuts. If some think there is some sort of honesty in rough and ready, couldn't care less made stuff then, that is their preference. But let us not start pretending that that was some sort of standard and somehow craftsmen who want to do neat, accurate work are being all unnecessary. 

Another thing, if over cutting was method and not error, absolutely every side of every single pin socket would be overcuts. But they are not, there is evidence of random, here and there over cutting, which is indicative of pilot error, not intent. Surprisingly, on the cabinet I am examining presently, there are more overcuts on the dovetails than on the tail sockets. In fact there are surprisingly few there. There is no advantage in over cutting tails for waste removal, only on the pins, so it would be the other way around, unless it was just error. If you think about it, without the confirmation bias that seems to be endemic here at the moment, there _would _be less over cutting on the pins, since there are 2 baselines to aim for, so more concentration and a little less speed would be used, hence more accuracy and less over-cutting. In fact, common dovetails should have no overcutting at all, since this will not help waste removal on either tail or socket board, but there are. It is pilot error, pure and simple. ( or bad workmanship )

Mike.


----------



## charvercarver (18 Sep 2013)

Woodbrains:

If the over cutting was pure error I'm not sure just speed would account for it. It seems unlikely that so many over cut examples exist just through mistakes, after all it isn't that difficult to not over cut and joiners of that period would certainly have been very experienced with a saw.

I think it is more likely like the practice of undercutting tenons on the unseen side, if you couldn't see it they were only really concerned with structural strength, not appearance.


----------



## MIGNAL (18 Sep 2013)

So Woodbrains, does the 'rough and ready' apply to Mr.Krenov and his 'hacked out, rough as old boots' Planes? or was he just deluding himself - and a lot of woodworky folk, going by the number who bought them. By your definition that would make him dishonest.
Oh dear!!


----------



## CStanford (18 Sep 2013)

woodbrains":qa1sqjsh said:


> Hello,
> 
> WOW! Some of you people are so good at writing tommy rot, you are actually suceeding in deluding yourselves. Over cutting is a result of speed, pure and simple. The baseline was aimed for as you should, but speed resulted in some error. That is all. It has nothing to do with some myth that it was done on purpose to facilitate the waste removal. Better craftsmen over cut less, some absolutely awful stuff done by less able wood butchers had lots of overcuts. If some think there is some sort of honesty in rough and ready, couldn't care less made stuff then, that is their preference. But let us not start pretending that that was some sort of standard and somehow craftsmen who want to do neat, accurate work are being all unnecessary.
> 
> ...



People afraid of the baseline spend a lot of time cleaning up the juncture at the base of every pin and tail left by removal of the waste. Nobody is aiming at a consistent overcut, but more a 'complete' cut that descends all the way to the bottom of the incised baseline in order to mimimize a lot of tedious chisel-work cleaning up cuts that fell short of where they should have (again, on pins AND tails). The result is an occassional overcut (slightly through the incised baseline), even by excellent craftsmen. 

I don't think delusion, endemic confirmation bias, etc has anything to do with it.


----------



## iNewbie (18 Sep 2013)

I'm not sure why some people/woodworkers have a hang-up on someone owning/using a nice high-end tool V a romantic de-rusted old'un or, why seeking to make your hand made work as unflawed as it possibly can be makes you the devils-spore and CNC = cold and soulless. But it has me asking: why do they care.


----------



## woodbrains (18 Sep 2013)

Hello,

In fact let's rewind a bit. Overcutting will not help remove the waste any easier, whether with a good chisel or a bad one, in any case. So the argument is moot anyhow. Some people could cut down to the baseline consistently well others could not. Speed, lack of light, lack of practiced skill, whatever, these are the reasons for overcutting. Easing the waste out is fallacious.

The Krenov plane thing has no bearing on anything other than Krenov's planes. What he did cannot prove or disprove what another craftsman, from another era, with other expedients and pressures, did and for what reason. In any case, Krenov did not make planes to sell. He made planes to use himself and gave some away to someone he thought nice. The few he made ( and some people bought) towards the end of his life, he made when he was actually almost totally blind and could no longer make furniture. They were more autographs than tools at that point, for people who wanted a memory of the man.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (18 Sep 2013)

woodbrains":2j6v72qa said:


> .....Overcutting will not help remove the waste any easier, .....


Yes it will. Ideally the over-cut would just nick the gauge line but this is quite difficult to do and simpler to allow a slight over cut - as little as possible of course. I don't know why you keep needing to have this explained it's glaringly obvious. 
Now you've started, keep on looking at furniture - you may learn something!
What about old Jim's blarny about tool marks, no sanding etc? Is there a book of rules with some things allowed and others not?


----------



## G S Haydon (18 Sep 2013)

Carl P":24c8iqlt said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Unusually, thanks to good luck with carboot/ebay, I am in the rather odd position of not only having a chisel that's the right width, but also the possibility of being either bevel edged or straight sided. So the question is, straight or bevel edged for firmers - what are the advantages/disadvantages, and when does a bevel edged chisel become a dovetail chisel?
> 
> ...



If your still here Carl I think we can agree :lol: on the following

Both a Beveled Firmer & a Straight Firmer make very good general purpose tools. As much as anything its what an individual is used too.

A beveled edge becomes a dovetail chisel when there is virtually no land.

Your choice of straight sided firmers and dovetail chisels will serve you very well indeed.


----------



## MIGNAL (18 Sep 2013)

oh right Woodbrains. In other words it was fine for Krenov to hack out rough old Planes (complete with rough, knobbly bits) but in the case of other woodworkers doing something similar it becomes dishonest and 'woodbutchers'. You couldn't buy his Planes but he _was_ selling his 'autograph'. I do believe that the autograph was around $300 US a number of years ago  
What a load of jumped up, self righteous bllshit. Typical of an artsy woodworker! Have you an artists statement to go along with the knobbly Planes?


----------



## CStanford (18 Sep 2013)

iNewbie":2z8im6wv said:


> I'm not sure why some people/woodworkers have a hang-up on someone owning/using a nice high-end tool V a romantic de-rusted old'un or, why seeking to make your hand made work as unflawed as it possibly can be makes you the devils-spore and CNC = cold and soulless. But it has me asking: why do they care.



Don't confuse posting opinions on a forum with the notion of "caring."


----------



## CStanford (18 Sep 2013)

woodbrains":3brbsvj3 said:


> Hello,
> 
> In fact let's rewind a bit. Overcutting will not help remove the waste any easier, whether with a good chisel or a bad one, in any case. So the argument is moot anyhow. Some people could cut down to the baseline consistently well others could not. Speed, lack of light, lack of practiced skill, whatever, these are the reasons for overcutting. Easing the waste out is fallacious.
> 
> ...



Won't help? That's absurd. Go out to your shop and stop your saw cuts a half millimeter or so from the knifed line and let us know how much clean up you have to do. Nicking the far side side of the gauged line absolutely helps eliminate a whole lot of chisel work.


----------



## woodbrains (18 Sep 2013)

Hello,

No, overcutting won't help. It is an expedient to prevent an undercut. But cutting to the line in no less effective than overcutting and much neater.

Jacob is contending some other nonsense entirely, than an overcut can somehow make up for having a chisel that is too fat to remove the waste right into the corners, which is total bunkham as well.

Don't forget, I still have the Victorian dressing table with only the occasional overcut in all the 13 drawers. The only explanation is 'unintentional' or they all would be like that, or all not.

I am really impressed with the real reason for the arguments put forward, though. Finding imperfect work from the past to justify ones own imperfect work. Blaming CNC for not being able to get away with mistakes and flaws, these days. Decrying an old blind mans work, who isn't around to defend himself, and sold a few things after he was past his best, based on his fame more than the object itself. As if that proves anything! I suppose it is much easier to puppy and make excuses than to improve, though.

Mike.


----------



## charvercarver (18 Sep 2013)

Woodbrains:

I'd agree with the others that over cutting helps, cleaning out the waste from the junction between the sloped parts and the square parts is much easier with an over cut.

I think the simple fact that so many over cuts are seen shows that unseen neat joinery wasn't a critical issue for the joiners of old, that being the case why wouldn't they over cut? These days hand cut joinery is a selling point, so it makes sense to chisel out all the waste. In the old days the joinery wasn't much of a factor, after all modern draw fastening isn't very attractive, but no one much minds. See also adjustable hinges.


----------



## MIGNAL (18 Sep 2013)

No Woodbrains, krenov isn't around to defend himself. Neither are the 'dishonest woodbutchers'. 
Then again you obviously missed my point entirely. I wasn't decrying his work. I rather like a bit of texture in wood. It has a more interesting feel than over fussed, over sanded stuff. In fact I quite like the odd tool mark, the inlay that wiggles a little. Perhaps that was why Krenov did his knobbly planes: 'good enough', 'functional'. Probably the same reason why the dishonest woodbutchers did their type of work.
We'll leave perfection to yourself.


----------



## woodbrains (18 Sep 2013)

charvercarver":17u0w12t said:


> Woodbrains:
> 
> I'd agree with the others that over cutting helps, cleaning out the waste from the junction between the sloped parts and the square parts is much easier with an over cut.



How? If I stop at the baseline, how might overcutting be an advantage? Or is it just quicker not to worry about trying to stop at the baseline too much. That is not the same as overcutting on purpose as a matter of course. Like I said, the craftsmen were quick and could get away with the odd mishap. Speed to get the job done and get paid, lead to errors. Especially, someone explain how overcutting can help clear the waste with a fat sided chisel. And how this possibly infers that Victorian craftsmen had lousy chisels while tool aficionados swear by old tools. 



> I think the simple fact that so many over cuts are seen shows that unseen neat joinery wasn't a critical issue for the joiners of old, that being the case why wouldn't they over cut? These days hand cut joinery is a selling point, so it makes sense to chisel out all the waste. In the old days the joinery wasn't much of a factor,



This, I've not disputed this but things change. We cannot make fine things these days and expect good money for them when even the most untrained eye (often from a point of ignorance) can pick up the errors. I envy the old makers to a point ( I wouldn't like the work conditions) the drawers I have are very good indeed and the dovetails are almost as good as I had to do. I bet the maker took half the time to do them, though. Then again, I've seen as close to perfection as could be. I would rather aim high.

Mike.


----------



## Corneel (19 Sep 2013)

When you are not fretting over such details, you could half the building time and thus half the price. So you can reach more people. Of course you would have to educate your customers what handwork really is. 

I object to the notion that overcut dovetails are "sloppy".


----------



## iNewbie (19 Sep 2013)

Corneel":vkb079gi said:


> When you are not fretting over such details, you could half the building time and thus half the price. So you can reach more people. Of course you would have to educate your customers what handwork really is.
> 
> I object to the notion that overcut dovetails are "sloppy".



Why should some people do that, though - half the time and price. Why does someone need to reach more people? 

Everyone works to their own standards as is their choice. If good enough is good enough thats fine, but for people to get upset because others seek to push themselves to what they define as _perfection_ -in how they build/work, who am I to judge. There's snobbery on both sides imho. I don't see things in Black and White - I'll sit in the grey area and wonder.... WTF.


----------



## Jacob (19 Sep 2013)

The odd thing is about woodbrains perfectionism is that even his guru (St Jim RIP) argues against it.
I first became aware if the argument many years ago when I fancied being a luthier and started making a lute (mostly from a kit I confess). The hardest bit was carving the sound hole. I chanced upon some very valuable notes from (edited - probably Stefan Gottleib) along the lines of _avoid over working, sandpaper, scraping, a few chisel marks will be fine and keep it looking fresh_ etc
Then at woodwork shows one thing often noticeable is the over-fine finish of amateur work - backs and undersides all polished and every sign of hand tool work removed, arrises rounded over etc.
It's not that tool marks are desirable in themselves but neither is the over worked effect. It's a compromise and time is a big factor - is it worth the extra effort or would it be better to attend to some other details?
But then it's quite nice seeing evidence of the human touch.


----------



## Corneel (19 Sep 2013)

iNewbie":gdh8l16c said:


> Why should some people do that, though - half the time and price. Why does someone need to reach more people?
> 
> Everyone works to their own standards as is their choice. If good enough is good enough thats fine, but for people to get upset because others seek to push themselves to what they define as _perfection_ -in how they build/work, who am I to judge. There's snobbery on both sides imho. I don't see things in Black and White - I'll sit in the grey area and wonder.... WTF.



Sure, everybody should do what they feel happy with! And what brings bread on the table.

That doesn't change that striving for machine perfection with handtools is a dead end street. First we had to compete with the Leigh jig and succeeded. Then came the CNC routers. Next is the 3D printers. All the time while striving for absolute perfection we loose sight of the true value of handtool work. The connection with our human being. The visibility of the craftsman in the end result.

This masterpiece was kind of an eyeopener for me. Nobody would argue this isn't a fine ship. And it was very succesfull too, being the flagship of the Duthc navy in the second Dutch-English war (1666). I'm sure you could find some overlong sawcuts if you look close enough. Really impressing is how fast they build this ship, it was completed in 7 months. SEVEN! At the same time 3 other similar ships were being build on the same warf in Rotterdam.


----------



## MIGNAL (19 Sep 2013)

What people like Woodbrains need are a very high quality CNC machine, along with a high quality industrial sander. Then a finishing robot. 
In fact the less that the human comes into contact with the work, the better. If you can't find an automated machine that is up to the task: build a better automated machine. There lies the path of the 'perfect' object. Using hand tools, the sensible limits of a working professional and you haven't got a hope.


----------



## Corneel (19 Sep 2013)

That's a bit charged of course. As long as Mike finds customers with the money, that's fine, for him.

Doesn't mean it's the same for everyone, or something everybody should strive for.


----------



## charvercarver (19 Sep 2013)

> How? If I stop at the baseline, how might overcutting be an advantage? Or is it just quicker not to worry about trying to stop at the baseline too much. That is not the same as overcutting on purpose as a matter of course. Like I said, the craftsmen were quick and could get away with the odd mishap. Speed to get the job done and get paid, lead to errors. Especially, someone explain how overcutting can help clear the waste with a fat sided chisel. And how this possibly infers that Victorian craftsmen had lousy chisels while tool aficionados swear by old tools.



True if you stop excactly on the baseline; as in where the kerf ends doesn't need any clean up then over cutting doesn't add anything, but that is very tricky to do. I just don't think the old guys cared that much. 




> This, I've not disputed this but things change. We cannot make fine things these days and expect good money for them when even the most untrained eye (often from a point of ignorance) can pick up the errors. I envy the old makers to a point ( I wouldn't like the work conditions) the drawers I have are very good indeed and the dovetails are almost as good as I had to do. I bet the maker took half the time to do them, though. Then again, I've seen as close to perfection as could be. I would rather aim high.
> 
> Mike.



I think this where we diverge, I don't regard the over cuts as errors as such. I think they are, or were, accepted as part of the aesthetic. Just as today we accept ugly draw and cupboard fixings, though I wouldn't call over cuts ugly as such, they do contrast with the care that was taken over the visible surfaces.


----------



## Jacob (19 Sep 2013)

Corneel":1jz6sr12 said:


> ......
> This masterpiece was kind of an eyeopener for me. Nobody would argue this isn't a fine ship. And it was very succesfull too, being the flagship of the Duthc navy in the second Dutch-English war (1666). I'm sure you could find some overlong sawcuts if you look close enough. Really impressing is how fast they build this ship, it was completed in 7 months. SEVEN! At the same time 3 other similar ships were being build on the same warf in Rotterdam.


7 months! Would have been quicker if they'd had a complete set of matching chisels and a Veritas honing jig?
Talking of untidy Dutch work - that Van Gogh never finished anything properly either. Look at this messy brush work. And appalling furniture made by idiots.
If only he had had a camera and could have afforded to stay in a decent hotel!


----------



## Carl P (19 Sep 2013)

Interesting parallel with music here, a friend of mine once said in a discussion about music 'you know, we all strive to be more in tune and more in time, obviously that's got to be right, and yet that's not where the music is.' I believe the same is true here, perfectly executed woodwork can be soulless, or it can be part of the overall beauty and characterful design, less rigorous work (for want of a better phrase) can be full of character, or just sloppy/bad, quite how to define this I don't know, maybe post some links to examples?

Cheerio,

Carl


----------



## woodbrains (19 Sep 2013)

charvercarver":3hjiuyum said:


> I think this where we diverge, I don't regard the over cuts as errors as such. I think they are, or were, accepted as part of the aesthetic. Just as today we accept ugly draw and cupboard fixings, though I wouldn't call over cuts ugly as such, they do contrast with the care that was taken over the visible surfaces.



Hello,

I don't think we do diverge. I wrote 'error' to mean 'unintentional'. I was not having a go at the old craftsmen who did good honest work. But sawing past a line is not a prescribed method, either, which was all I was trying to get across. The Victorisn dresser I was referring to has dovetails with the odd overcut. I love the thing, it was done by very good craftsmen indeed. But there is a fine line between leaving the honest mark of the maker and being a bit rough. This is often a matter of opinion and taste, but you have to be honest about it. You cannot falsely imbue some old time charm to a pile of poorly made firewood, just because it is old, nor do you have to start making something over, if there is an honest mistake in an otherwise top notch job. Krenov was brought up again here, about his idea of leaving tool marks as a sign of the maker. This is true, but he never encouraged sloppiness either. I don't remember ever seeing overcutting on any of his dovetails, even when he was old and past doing his best work. But this is where it is down to personal judgement. Seeing the slightly scalloped and burnished marks left by a sharp hand plane is the sign of a craftsman. Leaving tear out (IMO) is sloppy. Perhaps one or two overcuts is acceptable. But 10 on one drawer, coupled with gappy shoulders on mortice and tenons, and some tear out on the top, cannot be viewed as a bit of charm. Cumulatively lots of little thing add up to sloppiness.

Perhaps I am wrong, but the market for fine furniture doesn't seem to tolerate visual defects as perhaps it once did. And if there are craftsmen who are capable of not overcutting their dovetails, the market realises this, and it is not easy to persuade the customer that it is part of the charm. They don't see it.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (19 Sep 2013)

Yawn. He's unstoppable!!!
How are sales at the moment BTW?
Hate to tell you but you couldn't be wronger. There is a huge market for all manner of rubbish and non rubbish, including bog standard trad made design and construction warts and all.
The market for expensive, perfectionist Arts n Crafts oddities is, and always has been, vanishingly small.

And what is this "charm" nonsense? What on earth do you mean?


----------



## woodbrains (19 Sep 2013)

Jacob":18nltvtj said:


> Yawn. He's unstoppable!!!
> How are sales at the moment BTW?



Hello,

Not selling anything at the moment, having time out doing other stuff, might be permanent. You don't seem to realise that I started wanting to make honest, less fussy stuff, but you simply cannot make enough of it to sell it to the market that wants it and make any money. So you make it better and try to charge a bit more, eventually you make it so good that it will realise the price you need to earn, but the market is now very small indeed. I don't expect you to believe me, since you immediately want to contradict me , rather than perhaps understand what I say and maybe offer a sensible solution, but making one off furniture is tough. Look at oak furniture emporium type stuff. Could you make something to compete with those prices? I'm sure you could design better stuff and make it better, but not for the same prices, even if you did accept some makers charm, to expedite the process. So how do you sell that for more; what added value can you persuade the customer your stuff has than oak emporium doesn't. If you have a solution, then, without the usual extraction of water, let me know. 

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (19 Sep 2013)

woodbrains":3qtejdte said:


> ..... but making one off furniture is tough. Look at oak furniture emporium type stuff. .....


There is a huge middle ground. Making one offs is pointless. If it's any good why not make 5 or 10 at a time? No need to compromise on quality - in fact it improves with longer runs as problems get sorted. Perhaps modify your designs very slightly to suit a particular client (table sizes etc) but otherwise no compromise - you make what you want but in batches. 
The main thing is that costs go down and productivity goes up enormously as you scale up, even slightly. Everything gets easier.

Not quite the same - but even the top most chefs don't do one offs. They cobble together a menu and you take it or leave it.

And one of the strengths of batch making is that you can make low cost items viably - by making them in large batches, 10s, 100s even. Think of currant buns!


----------



## woodbrains (19 Sep 2013)

Jacob":21njjdbu said:


> woodbrains":21njjdbu said:
> 
> 
> > ..... but making one off furniture is tough. Look at oak furniture emporium type stuff. .....
> ...



Hello,

This is nothing but good sense, I totally agree. I did do some batches of small items like boxes, mirrors and lamps. Some from each of the batches sold like hot cakes. But passing trade was thin at my workshop, so I had to sell through shops. And of course shop mark up meant slim profits. Once the shops sold as many as they were going to, I ended up with a storage problem. Not so bad with small items, but I'd hate to batch produce large items, as I'd soon outgrow the workshop. Getting all the clients up front and then making the batch is a way some do it, I can't say how hard it is to get all the ducks in alignment, and in what time frame, so the waiting customers don't get tired of waiting.

Perhaps when I get my shed up and running, I will batch produce a range of something, so if I do venture to try again, I can hit the ground running.

Thanks for your advice, I appreciate it.

Mike.


----------



## Jacob (19 Sep 2013)

Maybe you have to put the artist/craftsman idea on hold and work out how to earn from a small space*, or how to get a larger one. 
Mind you it's taken me a long time to get the space and I've still got to earn from it - or "monetize" it as the wife keeps saying. I don't know where she picks up these expressions :roll:
The artist/craftsman idea does seem to be a bit of a millstone around the neck for quite a few people.

PS * Boxes - everybody loves them and there are infinite possibilities. I'll tell the wife!


----------



## AndyT (19 Sep 2013)

Whisper it quietly but isn't it nice to see Jacob and Woodbrains agreeing with each other!


----------



## Sgian Dubh (19 Sep 2013)

AndyT":3oybvwpp said:


> Whisper it quietly but isn't it nice to see Jacob and Woodbrains agreeing with each other!


It is, because I was beginning to wonder if the circular bickering was ever going to end. And I'm also somewhat surprised to see that (apparently) all these busy woodworkers in this thread, and a few others I suppose, seem to have so much free time that they can ponce around for most of the day typing long and verbose ripostes to each other! I have to reserve most of my poncing around on woodworking forums and the like for evenings and weekends, i.e., when I've finished work for the day or week. Slainte.


----------



## woodbrains (19 Sep 2013)

Hello,

I've seen some of your furniture, Richard. I don't recall seeing any overcutting in your dovetails, you might have lent a hand defending the high end makers point of view, I was getting a bit lonely defending it by myself (hammer) . Some thoughts on how we might sell our stuff without starving would be nice, too. 


Jacob, I worked hard and got my space, but perhaps you are having better luck monetizing it than I. =D> if I can get some stuff together from my small space, I might give it another go, with a fresh approach. I might just have to carry on with my new job and make things for myself as and when. Being employed takes up so much time, there is possibly too little left for a new venture. We'll see how it pans out.

Mike.


----------



## Sgian Dubh (20 Sep 2013)

woodbrains":3irilvsk said:


> Hello, I've seen some of your furniture, Richard. I don't recall seeing any overcutting in your dovetails, you might have lent a hand defending the high end makers point of view, I was getting a bit lonely defending it by myself (hammer) . Some thoughts on how we might sell our stuff without starving would be nice, too. Mike.


Mike, I don't need to overcut because I'm bloody good, and quick, ha, ha.

I learnt long ago to merely be an observer in pointless and pathetic nit-picking bickerfests, such as this thread. Participating in them is an exercise in frustration and time wasting, so they're generally best left alone to pickle in their own bilious stew. Some arguments are unwinnable, even if you know you're right and can prove it.

Meanwhile, I need to get away and do some real work for the rest of the day instead fooling around here. Slainte.


----------



## Jacob (20 Sep 2013)

woodbrains":2sm461p0 said:


> .....
> 
> Jacob, I worked hard and got my space, but perhaps you are having better luck monetizing it than I. =D> if I can get some stuff together from my small space, I might give it another go, with a fresh approach. I might just have to carry on with my new job and make things for myself as and when. Being employed takes up so much time, there is possibly too little left for a new venture. We'll see how it pans out.
> 
> Mike.


Fresh approach might be to recognise that "high end" is only one of many possible ways. 
Another parallel with music might be those who imagine that if their piano lessons aren't going to get them to the Albert Hall they might as well stop altogether. But they then miss the incredible richness of all the other possible genres and alternative ways of being involved - other ways, which aren't "inferior" at all.
Right I'm off to do some work now! Bit late but it is Friday.


----------



## Carl P (20 Sep 2013)

Bang on with the musical parallel Jacob, as my many gigs at weddings, restaurants, dodgy venues with dubious combo's will attest, of course I'd like to think I've maintained my artistic credibility, but...

Cheerio,

Carl


----------



## woodbrains (20 Sep 2013)

Hello,

Ha Ha 

I'll become a wood busker :wink: 

Mike.


----------



## Carl P (21 Sep 2013)

Hi Mike,

Just remember, you need a dog with a grubby, slightly gaudy bandana, preferably sporting a tinkly bell aswell, also should look a little thin, even though there are a few regular sweet old ladies who always buy dogfood for him (not too concerned about the busker though!) and don't forget, we haven't reached October yet, but you need to brush up on all those Christmas favourites - you may be above that sort of thing, but it's the corny sh*te that gets the punters to part with their dosh!

Cheerio,


Carl


----------



## Jacob (21 Sep 2013)

Nicely made wooden sledges go down well as Christmas approaches.


----------



## iNewbie (21 Sep 2013)

Not sure I could eat a whole one, though...


----------

