# Market Research Question 1: Shellac



## Terry Smart (4 Jun 2005)

Hi All

We're thinking of extending our range with, among other things, shellac in flake form, popular with so many people here (and for good reason!).

So a couple of questions to ask, to try to make sure we get the basics right:

Firstly, which shellacs? Dewaxed Blond, Dewaxed Lemon etc?

Secondly, most people sell this in plastic bags which has always seemed to me to be unhelpful; I'd imagine the product goes everywhere once opened and resealing the bag is very difficult. We're thinking of using plastic containers with lids - are we trying too hard here? Do users of this use the whole bag at a time perhaps, or would you see an advantage to being able to put a lid back on it and keep some for another day?

All feedback welcome!


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## Argee (4 Jun 2005)

Terry Smart":11mbnlng said:


> Firstly, which shellacs? Dewaxed Blond, Dewaxed Lemon etc?



Dewaxed Blond for me, thanks!



> We're thinking of using plastic containers with lids - are we trying too hard here? Do users of this use the whole bag at a time perhaps, or would you see an advantage to being able to put a lid back on it and keep some for another day?



I like your thinking.  Regarding the container types - what about those "pinch seal" airtight bags, like biscuits sometimes come in? Would seem a lesser cost than plastic containers? 

Ray.


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## Noel (4 Jun 2005)

Dewaxed Blond (strange term that.......) for me and the resealable bags, like Zip bags, would work.

Noel


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## Alf (4 Jun 2005)

Terry,

I'd say blonde, button (orange) and garnet covers all the required bases - all dewaxed. You might want to consider selling a proper "mixer" too. Having switched from purple meths to clear methyl alcohol (I think that's the stuff? I know it has a little shellac added to it to stop it upsetting customs for being "proper" alchol or something), I've found it seems to do a much better job than meths and I avoid any danger of the purple dye effecting blonde shellac on pale woods. Dunno why it isn't more accessible to buy - some legal reason I know not of? Anyway, fwiw.

Personally I don't use a whole bag at a time, no way! I just put it into self-seal bags. I know some people store shellac flakes in the fridge or freezer, so they might not want an unneccessarily large tub, half full, taking up room and losing them SWMBO points. A resealable bag would be favourite for me. 

Cheers, Alf


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## devonwoody (4 Jun 2005)

what timespan is involved here for the product availability please?


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## Chris Knight (4 Jun 2005)

Terry,

I prefer de-waxed and usually use blonde. Any resealable robust container (tins are fine) as long as it doesn't have one of those stupid childproof lids that turn me on a good day into a Grumpy Old Man and on a bad day into a slavering beast from Hell.

Seconding Alf, a decent finishing spirit to go with it would be useful.


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## Terry Smart (4 Jun 2005)

Hi Folks

Good thoughts so far, keep'em coming!

We're looking at quite a long lead time here, several months, but we'll let you know when the time is right!

In the fridge, Alf? Do they know something about shellac that I don't? I'm under the impression that unmixed it lasts ages.

Thanks for the input so far, more is welcome!


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## Alf (4 Jun 2005)

Terry Smart":1jv75rep said:


> In the fridge, Alf? Do they know something about shellac that I don't? I'm under the impression that unmixed it lasts ages.


Well I suppose it's the most obvious cool, dark place?

Cheers, Alf


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## Shady (5 Jun 2005)

Alf: where do you currently get your 'non-purple' methyl alcohol?


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## devonwoody (5 Jun 2005)

Shady":12uky135 said:


> Alf: where do you currently get your 'non-purple' methyl alcohol?



How about Vodka????


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## Chris Knight (5 Jun 2005)

Shady,
Dunno about Alf but my I get mine from Fiddes (they call it finishing spirit) although the last lot I got said ethanol rather than methanol on the (plastic ) container. All previous supplies said methanol. I haven't actually checked with Fiddes because ethanol works fine too (that is the drinkable (hic) kind that gets denatured with methyl violet etc in meths but I am not sure what has been used in this stuff to denature it).

Methanol dries even faster than ethanol which I prefer for French polishing so I may go in search of methanol again. Years ago when I flew RC model aircraft, that was the fuel we used in the motors so I guess a model shop will have it.


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## Shady (5 Jun 2005)

Thanks Chris: it would be nice to find a 'screwfix/RS/Axminster style place - so Terry, there's your market opening!! I'd definitely buy if I found a reliable and not stupidly expensive source..

At the moment I buy the Liberon pre-mixed super blond dewaxed. Yes, I know, heresy. heresy - but actually, it appears to be consistent quality, and saves a bit of effort. I get a bit more than I'll need, and throw it after the job's done. As a 'mini product review', I'd recommend it.


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## Alf (5 Jun 2005)

I got mine from a galoot, and it damn nearly knocks me out every time I open the container. Not actually sure if it's ethanol or methanol; a very plain, unadorned, plastic container. Tsk. [-X

I used the Liberon pre-mixed blonde de-waxed as my shellac introduction, and as long as you get it from somewhere with a reasonable turnover, it's not bad. 

Cheers, Alf


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## CHJ (5 Jun 2005)

*Terry* I'm with


> *Alf* ...I'd say blonde, button (orange) and garnet covers all the required bases - all dewaxed....


 on this one if you are talking range of product, and also a source of clear methanol mix to support the 'blond' product at least.

Re-sealable (zip-up, but not so cheap that it takes forever to re-align the two halves) plastic bags with clearly readable and semi-permanent label would seem to be the ideal and taking up minimum storage space.


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## Anonymous (5 Jun 2005)

Dewaxed Blond for me in a nice re-sealable container, thanks!


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## GCR (5 Jun 2005)

Terry

So far I have been lazy and purchased ready mixed "white polish". I would be interested in buying shellac flakes and a suitable "solvent". I have used industrial meths in the past but my customs and excise licence has expired/got lost and I have had problems purchasing said stuff anyway.

Bob


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## trevtheturner (5 Jun 2005)

Alf":6ghexlcd said:


> I got mine from a galoot, and it damn nearly knocks me out every time I open the container. Not actually sure if it's ethanol or methanol; a very plain, unadorned, plastic container. Tsk. [-X



Sure it's not pocheen, Alf? :lol: :lol: You're not too far away!

Cheers,

Trev


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## AndyBoyd (6 Jun 2005)

Alf":3d6akm6q said:


> Terry,
> 
> I'd say blonde, button (orange) and garnet covers all the required bases - all dewaxed. You might want to consider selling a proper "mixer" too.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I'm with Alf on the Shellacs, I use de-???? methyl alcohol but my supplies are a bit varied, so only for the blond, for the garnet I use good old meths as that is easy to get, mind you I never polish to a high gloss finish (I've started negotiating with Houtslager to teach me that fine old art, states it would take me 3 months to learn!!!) I just wipe it on and sometimes finish it with wax.

A nice pot with a lid would be nice, I store mine in a round metal biscuit tin (Our local biscuit maker sells his in these - even with a free handy sticky label and they stack too!


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## devonwoody (6 Jun 2005)

Meths is blue.

Anyone ever found a way of getting rid of the blue colour.

(perhaps if you put a yellow colour in with the meths you would get green :lol: or red and get purple)

Still wouldn't drink it of course but a different colour or shade could be handy as a stain?


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## beech1948 (8 Jun 2005)

Alf":3libnr25 said:


> Terry,
> 
> I'd say blonde, button (orange) and garnet covers all the required bases - all dewaxed. You might want to consider selling a proper "mixer" too.



That goes for me too.



Alf":3libnr25 said:


> Personally I don't use a whole bag at a time, no way! I just put it into self-seal bags. A resealable bag would be favourite for me.



Me too

I also sometimes wonder about how much to make up. I wonder how difficult it is to measure and mix. Is there any way to have say three or fours sizes of shellack and mixer as packs. Eg Like the just add water..you know I really mean spirit.?

alan


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## The Restorer (13 Jun 2005)

I buy mine from Fiddes at the moment and use their Transparent shellac powder. This comes in a clear plastic container with a screw top lid (bit like the old sweetie jars). I buy it a Kilo (£14.01) at a time and this last ages considering i'm doing this professionally. I'd always go with transparent shellac purely because it doesn't alter the colour of the wood so much. Button is probably the most used (especially by the Victorians) after this.
I'd suggest 250g and 500g sizes for general usage. It does last (forever?) if stored properly as long as ir's not mixed.
The hardest thing to get hold off, and the obvious opening, is for finishing spirit to be able to mix your polish up. I again get mine from Fiddes at £11.47 for 5ltrs.
Terry, you'd need to look at supplying proper polishers wadding and top quality white cotton sheeting to make up the rubber for application.
I still can't get french polishing your melamine product right, but won't give up!!
Anything further i can help with, drop me a PM.

Steve.


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## edmund (21 Jun 2005)

I thought I'd add my preferences as well as information on methylated spirits for general interest.

On the shellac front I typically use the paler shellacs (blonde, lemon) - always dewaxed. I use it both for making polishes and making shellac stopping - easier to make lighter colours darker than vice versa  I don't have any preference for container, although a re-sealable back would be helpful. I just use a small clip of the type you would use to seal opened food bags. This does have the advantage of being able to roll up a half full bag a bit to stop the contents moving around.

On the solvents front I'm fortunate enough to have a small supply of pure ethanol (my father used to work as an industrial scientist). I would like to be able to get my hands on IMS though, but this is a problematic. I do feel that the violet dye in MMS does affect the colouring of the finish, if only slightly. 

I've set out a bit of information below on methylated spirits as there appeared to be some interest.

Problem with using ethanol as a solvent is that that excise duty on alcoholic drinks is based upon their ethanol content. Pure ethanol would have such a high rate of duty that it would be far too expensive to use for purposes such as making shellac polishes. To avoid the excise duty ethanol is mixed with other chemicals to make it poisonous. This process of adding other chemicals is know as methylating. 

The law regarding the supply and use of methylated spirits is contained in the Methylated Spirits Regulations 1987.

There are three types of methylated spirits: 

(1) Mineralised methylated spirits (MMS). This is the purple liquid the general public are able to buy. Methanol (wood naphtha) is mixed with ethanol and methyl violet is added to give the purple colour. It also has an additive to make it taste horrible and to make it difficult to separate the ethanol from the other chemicals.

Methanol is very poisonous and causes blindness and death if consumed.

(2) Industrial methylated spirits (IMS)
This is usually 95% ethanol and 5% methanol. It can be obtained in different strengths. It is relative easy to separate the ethanol from the methanol so it may be obtained only by persons specifically authorised by Customs and Excise (and the recipient has to satisfy a number of conditions regarding storage of IMS).

(3) Denatured ethanol B (DEB)
This is mostly ethanol but with some chemicals added. It is only used to make perfumes and ointments. Again, authorisation from Customs and Excise is required to receive it.


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