# Bit of a shame



## lurker (4 Mar 2020)

I see many of you are piling on about Morris/brad nailer/Jacob.
He possibly deserves it but nonetheless it’s all a bit playground and we are better than that.


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## That would work (4 Mar 2020)

Ye, go make something (hammer)


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## Doug B (4 Mar 2020)

Brad Nailer was Duncan Cheslett, I met him once at a forum get together many years ago, though I imagine he'd have a laugh at being mistaken for Jacob.
That said I agree with your sentiments Jim


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## andys wood shed (4 Mar 2020)

Doug B":2901x05k said:


> Brad Nailer was Duncan Cheslett, I met him once at a forum get together many years ago, though I imagine he'd have a laugh at being mistaken for Jacob.
> That said I agree with your sentiments Jim


 
The good old days Doug


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## doctor Bob (4 Mar 2020)

Well I have searched and can't see any piling into Jacob, please point me in the right direction as Jacob baiting is one of my favourite hobbies....... :lol: :lol: :lol:
I keep an annual tally of his "blocking" me ............. not good this year as he seems to be banned, I demand he is let back in.

Having said that if the old rogue can't reply it's probably a bit dull.

He may possibly be busy in the local elections, I believe he wants to smash his vote tally from a few years ago and get 11 this time around.


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## AES (4 Mar 2020)

Well personally, I think that although Jacob did have his good points (basically his woodworking knowledge) in my opinion - we're all allowed to have them and express them aren't we? - I think this Forum is a helluva lot better place without him.

If you want any "proof" of that, look back over the last week or so, especially at several threads which could, potentially, have resulted in strife, and which have all passed off peacefully with no bad feelings from anyone as far as I can see. 

And it's not a question of attacking someone who can't "defend himself", nor a question of not getting on with making stuff (I am, thanks). But Jacob demonstrably deliberately set out to offend members with his ill-tempered, crass and provocative posts and responses, very often far and away beneath the point that would be considered impolite in any "civilised" gathering. Further, despite being warned, he continued to do that over and over again.

Personally he's the sort of bloke I most definitely would NOT want to share a drink with if I met him in a pub, so again speaking personally, I hope he's been banned for good. A thoroughly nasty piece of work, and good riddance to him. Thank goodness I've never even been to Derbyshire or wherever it was he came from.

However, if others have another opinion of the bloke, as said above, you're welcome to them, and to express them too.

However, IMO what we don't want or need on this Forum is a whole string of posts saying "he was a good bloke really" and others saying "Oh no he wasn't"; blah, blah, blah. 

Now THAT would be a waste of both posting and making time! ;-)

He's gone, hopefully for good, so can we just forget all about him please?

Edit for P.S. Don't know who morris or Brad Nailer is/are. Must be before my time.


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## Doug B (4 Mar 2020)

andys wood shed":2dry4jkr said:


> Doug B":2dry4jkr said:
> 
> 
> > Brad Nailer was Duncan Cheslett, I met him once at a forum get together many years ago, though I imagine he'd have a laugh at being mistaken for Jacob.
> ...



They sure were Andy O


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## MikeG. (4 Mar 2020)

AES":3d7h1p4w said:


> .........I hope he's been banned for good.......



This is the only forum I've ever been on in which the status of a member was in any doubt. There are numerous different approaches in my experience, from a simple "banned" note under the user name to a "Public Notices" section listing all banned or suspended members and the reasons for the moderator action, this one stands alone in leaving us guessing. I'm not having a pop at the moderators in saying this, as no doubt this is the system they inherited, but it does seem bizarre to me that a long standing member can disappear without anyone knowing if he has been banned or not.

I personally banished him from my life some while ago by the simple expedient of adding him to my "foe" list, so whether or not he has been banned doesn't make any difference to me.


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## Jake (4 Mar 2020)

Doug B":5xayy2nx said:


> andys wood shed":5xayy2nx said:
> 
> 
> > Doug B":5xayy2nx said:
> ...



Pre WWI that was. I've lost count these days.


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## Doug B (4 Mar 2020)

Jake":2l9uao71 said:


> Pre WWUK that was. I've lost count these days.




Well perhaps just after it started :lol: :lol:


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## Droogs (4 Mar 2020)

not wanti9ng to cause a riot or step out of bounds but have been in hospital for the last few days. Have I missed some event occuring re Jacob?


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## MikeG. (4 Mar 2020)

Droogs":11jnoymr said:


> not wanti9ng to cause a riot or step out of bounds but have been in hospital for the last few days. Have I missed some event occuring re Jacob?



He's stopped posting. We assume he has been banned, but we've not been told. He made a re-appearance under another name for an hour or two, fooled no-one, and that account got banned quickly. Oddly, under that second account name he claimed not to know if he had been banned or not, but was unable to sign in. Maybe moderator silence on these matters extends to not even telling the banned poster that they've been banned.


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## Jake (4 Mar 2020)

Doug B":282hjftf said:


> Jake":282hjftf said:
> 
> 
> > Pre WWUK that was. I've lost count these days.
> ...



Always the same thin skins.


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## Trevanion (4 Mar 2020)

I'm in a bit of two minds about Jacob.

On the one hand, I *really* do not like talking about people and saying ill will behind their back (I'm a more say it to your face bluntly kind of person), on the other hand, It kind of feels well-deserved even though I really don't want to say that.

When I was a fresh-faced member about a year and a half ago I used to think "Why is everyone giving this guy so much jib? He seems to know what he's talking about." But over the time I've been here, I've gotten to see a little more of what Jacob is about. I think one of the first viewings I saw of "Rabid Jacob" was in a thread about double glazing where he seemed to have not much of a real idea about what he was wittering on about but still contested pretty much everything anyone was saying including an expert. Another time was that "Grrripper" thread which was subsequently deleted after he went ballistic about the "Grrripper" product and basically seemed to get into an argument with himself, come up with a really daft idea about having a weight on top of a workpiece while surface planing and when contested about the safety about said technique he went all raving looney to anyone who thought it wasn't a good idea, which was pretty much everyone including Peter Sefton who got the Jacob treatment being told to "Fack off" and "You're only here to get people to buy stuff from your overpriced shop" if I remember correctly. The point of what way was the correct way to plane came up again after someone wanted clarification from the deleted thread, This thread ended up being locked in the end, partly because of me admittedly but you can read the thread for yourselves. The late BBC rant thread was another example at times, where things were just pushed too far many times and if I recall correctly someone was compared to a certain historical leader of fascist-leaning by Jacob and he was banned for a week for it. Eventually, the BBC thread was deleted for reasons I'm not quite sure of, but when it did get deleted Jacob threw all his toys out of the pram metaphorically and "accidentally" deleted his account. There was recently a thread about the housing market which was locked after it devolved into a soapbox about left-wing politics by... You guessed it, Jacob. He then opened another thread asking why that thread had been locked and compared the moderation of the forum to Soviet Russia and I assume that is when he was banned as of now.

I'm definitely missing some examples there but those are the main ones that come to my mind when I think of Jacob's character. As Mike said, it's not clear whether he is actually banned or not but after the way "Morris" was dealt with a couple of weeks ago I assume he has been, for how long I have no idea.

To be brutally honest, I agree with AES. I think the ban should be on a permanent basis which is a sad thing really for a member who has been a part of woodworking forums for 15+ years but I think UKW might have been the only one left where he was welcome in the end. I wonder how many members have left quietly over the years after getting the Jacob treatment or who have avoided joining all together because they saw the conflict that happened occasionally? Again, like AES said, there have been a few threads lately where things would normally get extraordinarily heated but for the most part, they've been very civil and some excellent discussion has taken place especially in the "Electric Vehicles" thread where I only saw one comment that could be considered out of place, which was apologised for sincerely and the discussion moved on. I don't think I've ever seen Jacob apologise once, even if he was totally out of order. He only ever seems to dig ever-greater holes to avoid apologising instead of holding his hand up and saying "I made a mistake". But then, should he banned for having a very strong differing opinion to practically everything said on the forum? I dunno.

AGAIN, like AES said, is he the kind of bloke you'd want to spend time with down the pub? Putting it into forum terms, would you ever consider sending Jacob a PM to converse? I doubt many would want to. I'd like to think I could send a PM to pretty much anyone on this forum and have a bit of external forum conversation about pretty much anything and I'd like to think the same is vice versa with myself not to blow hot air up my own buttocks (I've got all the time in the world by the by if anyone wants to chat about anything :wink, there are some *great* members here, new and old.

That's my opinion on the subject.


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## sunnybob (5 Mar 2020)

Jacob was a TROLL (for people who dont know what that means regarding the internet, definitions are easily available)
I accused him of being one a couple of times. 
He did not refute me, and once even admitted it. "I enjoy it" were his exact words on this forum.

I had an uncle Henry, he went drinking with my dad several times a week. At least once a month uncle Henry would start an argument in the pub, my dad would defend him, and they would both get banned from the pub. Luckily, back then, there were 6 different pubs in easy walking distance, most in sight of each other. So they just moved on. By the time they had got banned from all of them (uncle Henry every single time) the first pub let them back in again.
Uncle Henry was a very nice man, he always bought comics for me when he visited, but uncle Henry was a troll.....


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## MikeG. (5 Mar 2020)

sunnybob":3b7ybg9s said:


> Jacob was a TROLL.....



The thing is, he was a self-professed troll. It's in his profile.

The other thing is, it's against the forum rules to call another member a troll. It's unfortunate that the moderators don't police this, and incredibly one of the moderators himself actually called Jacob a troll. One of the failings of moderation here is that at least some of the mods seem to think the rules don't apply to themselves. Nonetheless, I've always been deeply uncomfortable about calling Jacob (or anyone else) names. In theory, until a moderator actually tells us he has indeed been banned, we still shouldn't be calling him a troll, even though this is what he called himself. Indeed, we probably shouldn't even be discussing another member directly until or unless we know he is no longer a member.


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## Doug B (5 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":3mstjlum said:


> The thing is, he was a self-professed troll. It's in his profile.
> .



He stated in a post he hadn’t put that in his profile, interesting that it should go up there just before he was apparently banned :-k


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## John Brown (5 Mar 2020)

I never understood why some members couldn't just ignore him.
Sure, he could be annoying sometimes, but he certainly didn't have a monopoly in that regard.
I was slightly uncomfortable at the way certain other members responded to him from time to time, ranging from downright confrontational to smugly condescending/patronising. Jacob, for the most part, shrugged it off and carried on doggedly making his point, whether right or wrong.
All in all, it often looked like the RAF had been scrambled to take out a wasp.

Do I miss his contributions? Probably not, but I do agree with the OP in this thread. Playground stuff. He isn't posting anymore for whatever reason, so there's really no need for gloating.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Mar 2020)

I think the word "troll" should no longer be used. Just call people a "Jacob" instead. :lol:


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## sunnybob (5 Mar 2020)

Mike, you missed the point of my post. You say you rarely read his posts anyway, so most likely missed it, but Jacob, when named by me, did not only not deny he was a troll. he admitted he enjoyed winding the people up.

Troll, in internet terms, isnt actually an insult, in the way that you could affectionately call my uncle Henry a S%"t stirrer, because thats what he was. Its a one word description of a type of person that would otherwise take a couple of paragraphs to fully describe.
An insult is something that is not true. The truth can never become an insult.

I sometimes enjoyed the reactions he got, but never follow any thread that goes past three pages, because that has ALWAYS lost its way and descended into chaos.
The same way I dont argue on the internet, because its completely pointless. If I have something to say i say it, and thats the end of it for me, but many people just have to have the last word, even if its not a pleasant one. =D> =D> 8)


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## FatmanG (5 Mar 2020)

The fact that 2 page thread has been created with members needing to make their feelings known about him says banning him was the right decision but cmon guys HES GONE 

finished

Move on


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## John Brown (5 Mar 2020)

FatmanG":uyrsgntt said:


> The fact that 2 page thread has been created with members needing to make their feelings known about him says banning him was the right decision but cmon guys HES GONE
> 
> finished
> 
> Move on


Or that you miss him.


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## AJB Temple (5 Mar 2020)

It's funny, people like J (who based on his website did have some skills and experience in things like window renovation) don't bother me: easily ignored and the internet is an anonymous place really so who cares what other people think? A member of my family has a similar character - highly opinionated (without much foundation in knowledge) and aggressively argumentative. Laughable and easily ignored. 

This forum is a civilised place by and large, with some helpful and knowledgeable people who help each other out. It is soon obvious who knows what they are talking about. And it is easy enough just to focus on the positive members who do not resort to name calling and pointless arguments.


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## thetyreman (5 Mar 2020)

I actually liked him for what it's worth, he wasn't really that bad, just had strong opinions and political views that don't go with what most people on here have, which I find hilarious  

I will be sad to see him go, he had invaluable knowledge on sash window making and experience that very few will match again on here.


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## AndyT (5 Mar 2020)

For anyone who thinks Jacob never apologised, this search should help

search.php?keywords=Apologies&terms=all&author=Jacob&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


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## Selwyn (5 Mar 2020)

I liked him.

Pricked the balloons of some who got terribly arty farty about sharpening and woodwork and brought it back to what it was - a craft which needs practice.


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## Sheffield Tony (5 Mar 2020)

thetyreman":1rkadum8 said:


> I will be sad to see him go, he had invaluable knowledge on sash window making and experience that very few will match again on here.



+1. At least he had some things worthwhile to say. He knows a lot about old school woodworking, things that are sadly becoming forgotten, so have to be re-learned the hard way. When this forum follows the trend of most of the other forums and falls largely silent, we'll regret the people we drove away. Even the inflexible and argumentative ones :wink:


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## AES (5 Mar 2020)

All the following is simply my own opinion (to save me typing IMO over and over again).

With all due respect to previous posts and posters, my own opinion is that Jacob went FAR beyond what could by any standard be reasonably referred to as "play ground stuff".

As sunnybob says, Jacob was a troll, and quite happily admitted that. (BTW, I understand on good authority that Jacob did NOT identify himself as "Forum Resident Troll", the Forum software and/or the Mods did that for him).

And it's completely correct to say to yourself "just don't feed the troll" - in NORMAL circumstances.

BUT if we accept that one basic definition of a troll is someone who goes out of their way to deliberately provoke arguments, then not only did Jacob do that, he also went FAR beyond that definition.

Andy T has managed to find 1 post by Jacob (just ONE???) where he has apologised, but nobody will deny that any apology/ies by Jacob were VERY few and far between. Not only that, 99.9% of the time his ONLY response to any criticism, or to anyone else expressing any differing view to his own, was to personally attack the dissenter, very often in a highly destructive and highly offensive personal manner.

In short Jacob seemed to positively enjoy deliberately issuing "personal hurts" to other members, and that clearly with deliberate malice aforethought. That suggests to me a person who has a defect within his physiological make up. Someone who "gets his kicks" from deeply hurting others is to me just "defective" in some way.

As such he is perhaps to be pitied rather than condemned, but nevertheless, I for one am perhaps even less generous of spirit than even Jacob was in this respect - I never have accepted the Christian parable of "the prodigal son" and there comes a time when I simply have to stop "turning the other cheek".

As said, his behaviour often descended FAR below a level which could be accepted in any playground - or indeed in any "civilised club", internet or otherwise (which is what UKW is to all intents and purposes).

Although I have previously conceded that he had a good level of knowledge of "traditional woodworking", he consistently outweighed that benefit to us all by his totally unacceptable behaviour - a behaviour which, even with EXTREME patience and latitude allowances on their part/s, often needed correction by the Mods.

In short I'll sum up Jacob and his contributions to UKW as on balance totally negative and I for one will most definitely NOT miss him. I sincerely hope he never comes back here, but if he does, then I'll have no problem whatever in living with his presence. It will simply be much easier and more pleasant not to have to do so.

One final point. It seems to be the case that we don't know for sure if he's been banned or not, or if so, for how long. Be that as it may, as far as I know, no individual needs to be a registered member or to log in here to simply read posts on UKW - anyone can do that simply by being on line, and I assume that would include any banned member as well.

If so, it's quite likely that Jacob is reading all this now. If so I'm pleased, and if not I hope he does start reading here soon. Because I for one am not in the slightest bit reticent to say all this to his face.

But I very much doubt that he would be able to learn anything from it because, as said above, Jacob has plainly and consistently exhibited a fundamental flaw in his character - no sunnybob, (and the rest of you), NOT simply by stirring up arguments just for the hell of it, like your comic-giving Uncle, but only to try his very best to viciously verbally assault other people.

Long may his absence continue - "a thoroughly nasty little piece of work".


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## AndyT (5 Mar 2020)

AES":3rd4krnr said:


> Andy T has managed to find 1 post by Jacob (just ONE???) where he has apologised



The search I linked to yields about twenty posts where Jacob apologised.


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## AES (5 Mar 2020)

OK Andy T, noted. But 20 posts with apologies versus how many posts in total?

But I really do NOT want to start a "statistics nit picking" session with you or anyone else. So would you agree that "in the majority of his posts" Jacob did not even attempt apologise in any way?

I think your answer will be yes, in which case I believe the thrust of my argument is, at least in that respect, fundamentally correct.


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## Doug B (5 Mar 2020)

AES":j1i1r9um said:


> In short Jacob seemed to positively enjoy deliberately issuing "personal hurts" to other members, and that clearly with deliberate malice aforethought. That suggests to me a person who has a defect within his physiological make up. Someone who "gets his kicks" from deeply hurting others is to me just "defective" in some way.
> 
> 
> . - "a thoroughly nasty little piece of work".




Irony :?:


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Mar 2020)

No.


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## Irish Rover (5 Mar 2020)

I seem to have walked into a fishwives convention...


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## John Brown (5 Mar 2020)

"With all due respect to previous posts and posters, my own opinion is that Jacob went FAR beyond what could by any standard be reasonably referred to as "play ground stuff"."
Also with all due respect, I assumed the OP was referring to the gloating on the other thread as being playground stuff. Not anything Jacob did. 
And if that wasn't the intention of the OP, it was certainly mine.
Off to scale some fish now...


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## Lons (5 Mar 2020)

I won't comment on Jacob except to say that anyone who describes the forum as being like communist Russia probably deserves and should expect to be banned.

In reality however it's undeniable that the forum has in recent times become a much more civilised and pleasant place to visit and as already stated, threads that would certainly have developed a toxic attitude have instead produced arguments from all sides without any name calling or falling out.

*Long may it continue to be so!*


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## AJB Temple (5 Mar 2020)

Ever since I gave up professional life to become just a businessman, I have increasingly followed a simple maxim with my employees: "be nice". Irrespective of how others behave it is better not to allow oneself to be baited. It's a waste of emotional energy and time. 

Elenor Roosevelt got this right, many years ago: "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent". With only minor adjustments this maxim can be adapted to deal with any overly opinionated, judgemental or rude behaviour. 

It always takes two to have an argument. As it is the internet it is even easier to turn a deaf ear or a blind eye, than it is in normal life. It is a choice to allow ourselves to be baited by internet trolls and the choice to disregard them when necessary is easy and painless to execute. Hence J never bothered me at all and I could sift value from some of his posts in his areas of specialist experience, and simply ignore the silly spats and wind ups. We are not kids here in this place.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Mar 2020)

And the best possible outcome you can expect from having an argument with an silly person on the internet you don't even know is winning an argument ......... with an silly person on the internet you don't even know.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Mar 2020)

Sillyotic forum censoring software!


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## doctor Bob (5 Mar 2020)

I'm more worried that the tin of paint balanced on the upside down bowed plank being pushed by 2 x 3ft long push sticks over the planer has caused him an accident.
Or maybe he has gone into his bunker whilst the world is in turmoil.


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## Droogs (6 Mar 2020)

Perhaps he is self isolating and doesn't want his computer to catch the virus either


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## Doug B (6 Mar 2020)

phil.p":3d0ja0se said:


> No.



Yep, sadly what I thought as well


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## Vann (8 Mar 2020)

I'll miss him (hammer) .

Cheers, Vann.


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## Eric The Viking (8 Mar 2020)

Me too, even though we didn't see eye-to-eye on many things.

There's far, far worse out there, in YouTube comment threads, for example. I've also never known Jacob to be really rude, either, at least not by those standards .


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## Steve Maskery (8 Mar 2020)

Eric The Viking":qcwjhl2s said:


> There's far, far worse out there, in YouTube comment threads, for example.



I recently had someone commenting negatively on one of my videos before admitting they hadn't actually watched it...

Go figure, as our American cousins might say.


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## D_W (24 Mar 2020)

I was out of the loop on this. I could very well get banned from this forum at some point for being insistent about things that I know and that I know I've got much more experience with than the person I'm talking to. It's a risk. Could I be called a troll? I guess. David Charlesworth said something along the lines to me about being the most arrogant person he's come across because I was insistent I knew more about plane design and use than he does. 

I will help people with something that I know well. I will ask for advice from people who know more about a topic than I do. Is it trolling? No. Will I agree with someone so that we can be buddies and dilute information? No. Will I be insistent on something I only kind of know? No, i'm likely not to comment on it at all unless it looks like someone is being misled. 

All summed, i learned to ignore jacob when i wasn't looking for his opinion. I didn't mind him, but this forum is owned by someone and it's their rules. I've left other forums in the past when they were clearly ad focused and abused master makers who didn't want to concede that a brand new beginner had an opinion that was equal weight with theirs. Why didn't they? Because it's not true. Why did the forums insist beginners feel that way? Because the advertisers are interested in the beginner, and not in a guy who can literally make an autolathe that spits out ebony tuning pegs while they make an instrument entirely by hand. 

If jacob couldn't adhere to the rules, then the owners get to decide. If I don't like the the owners' principles (which isn't the case here), then there are other places to go.


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## Andy Kev. (24 Mar 2020)

I reckon the problem with him was that while he was knowledgeable about the craft, he was totally unskilled at explaining to other people why he profoundly disagreed with them on some matters or he simply enjoyed being provocative to the point of rudeness. 

If the former is the case, it was probable that he had a very low threshold for things which led him to abandon civility. If the latter, then it is difficult to see what a forum can do other than ban him. I think that for some folk, he became so annoying that his presence automatically triggered a lowering of their politeness thresholds.

So the bottom line is how you rate his benefit : detriment ratio in terms of the forum. I found it easy not to be wound up by him but many didn't. And I'm afraid that the evaluation of his banning probably lies in the fact that people are now saying that some topics can be discussed in a pleasant manner, something which his participation clearly tended to prevent.


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## Droogs (24 Mar 2020)

All aside, I really do hope the old curmudgeon is safe and well during all this


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## MikeG. (24 Mar 2020)

D_W":3jqnspvv said:


> .......... Could I be called a troll? I guess. David Charlesworth said something along the lines to me about being the most arrogant person he's come across because I was insistent I knew more about plane design and use than he does..........



There's two ways of discussing/ arguing: you can stick to the facts, or you can get personal. As soon as you start talking about the other person, and about your superior abilities/ knowledge/ whatever compared to that person, then you've lost the argument, and you are susceptible to the accusation that you are trolling. To tell anyone that you know more than they do about a subject you have to actually know how much they know. The way you approach these discussions, though, isn't in the spirit of finding out what the other person knows, and so you are logically unable to sustain any sort of claim of superior knowledge/ skill/ experience. You don't do discussion so much as lecture, and you pay no attention to the level of expertise in your audience (you've just admitted as much with Charlesworth, for instance). And yet you're the first to call people trolls. Anyone who questions you is a troll. You've said pretty much that in one of your videos. It's a very strange approach to the idea of a discussion forum.


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## John Brown (24 Mar 2020)

The real problem with Jacob was the gang of people who tripped over themselves to attack him.
Whatever you may think, I was not not a fan, he had/has his faults, but some forum members were, in my opinion, childishly antagonistic.
One of the mods once linked to a thread wherein Jacob had given advice about shaping spindle moulder cutters, and was attacked by another forum member in a way that was totally unwarranted. I have followed this forum for several years, and contributed almost nothing, as I'm sure some people will be quick to point out, but I unfortunately have an overdeveloped sense of fair play, and I found (and continue to find, even though he doesn't post anymore) the treatment of Jacob by some of you to be no more than petty schoolyard bullying, and I really think it's pathetic and shameful. 
If that means I can expect less in the way of helpful advice in the future, then so be it.


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## Andy Kev. (25 Mar 2020)

John Brown":1w6mpxg9 said:


> The real problem with Jacob was the gang of people who tripped over themselves to attack him.
> Whatever you may think, I was not not a fan, he had/has his faults, but some forum members were, in my opinion, childishly antagonistic.
> One of the mods once linked to a thread wherein Jacob had given advice about shaping spindle moulder cutters, and was attacked by another forum member in a way that was totally unwarranted. I have followed this forum for several years, and contributed almost nothing, as I'm sure some people will be quick to point out, but I unfortunately have an overdeveloped sense of fair play, and I found (and continue to find, even though he doesn't post anymore) the treatment of Jacob by some of you to be no more than petty schoolyard bullying, and I really think it's pathetic and shameful.
> If that means I can expect less in the way of helpful advice in the future, then so be it.



I think that's probably fair comment. If you add to the mix that he was also given to provoking for the sake of provoking and he was determined to never learn from fair criticism, you've probably got the whole thing summed up.


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## Andy Kev. (25 Mar 2020)

D_W":16nu1x8j said:


> I was out of the loop on this. I could very well get banned from this forum at some point for being insistent about things that I know and that I know I've got much more experience with than the person I'm talking to. It's a risk. Could I be called a troll? I guess. David Charlesworth said something along the lines to me about being the most arrogant person he's come across because I was insistent I knew more about plane design and use than he does.
> 
> I will help people with something that I know well. I will ask for advice from people who know more about a topic than I do. Is it trolling? No. Will I agree with someone so that we can be buddies and dilute information? No. Will I be insistent on something I only kind of know? No, i'm likely not to comment on it at all unless it looks like someone is being misled.
> 
> ...


What you perhaps don't see is the extent to which come across as gruff. It's possible to say things very directly without (most) people getting upset. Having seen some of your videos, I think I "get" you but you need to understand that with the written word we have to take more care with phrasing.


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## craigs (25 Mar 2020)

I wasn't sure whether to comment on this or not as I don't know any of you or this Jacob of whom you speak. But from my outside perspective this person has some people that like him and some that don't and can't ignore him.

If he broke the rules, then absolutely there should be some action around that and it should scale, otherwise we have chaos. 

IF however we fall into the chasm that society is currently in of "we don't like your opinion so you will be deplatformed", we might as well give up now and enjoy the echo chamber of only listening to people who agree with you.


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## MikeG. (25 Mar 2020)

craigsalisbury":2yvwbvcv said:


> .........IF however we fall into the chasm that society is currently in of "we don't like your opinion so you will be deplatformed"..........



That very much was NOT the situation with Jacob. A lot of people respected his knowledge and experience in production hand tool woodworking and bench joinery, and yet couldn't stand the way he behaved here, and towards them as individuals. I have dived in on Jacob's side in the past, but certainly ended up in the category who wanted his woodworking wisdom but couldn't stand the behaviour. I guess it's 6 or 9 months since he went on my ignore list as a result. The issue was never his opinions, but the way he expressed those, and the goading and false accusations that came along all too often.


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## craigs (25 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":2vvnt1v7 said:


> craigsalisbury":2vvnt1v7 said:
> 
> 
> > .........IF however we fall into the chasm that society is currently in of "we don't like your opinion so you will be deplatformed"..........
> ...



Fair enough, as I said, I was sure whether to comment or not. It just seems 4 pages of comments seems like unresolved issues lol


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## Doug B (25 Mar 2020)

Droogs":36wq9kww said:


> All aside, I really do hope the old curmudgeon is safe and well during all this



He is thanks & taking the advice for folks in their 70’s


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## Lons (25 Mar 2020)

Doug B":2m2u8f8j said:


> Droogs":2m2u8f8j said:
> 
> 
> > All aside, I really do hope the old curmudgeon is safe and well during all this
> ...


*What - he's taking advice from Boris? #-o :lol: *
On a serious note though good to hear, I wouldn't wish ill of the old bu**er while confessing I have at times in the past.  

If Jacob had kept his politics well distanced from various threads he would have been just about ok even the sharpening arguments were just about tolerable and as said several times the forum is a much more civilised place now where when things have got a little heated there have been apologies made and no intervention from the mods, when was the last time posts were deleted?


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## MikeG. (25 Mar 2020)

Lons":1gcq1feb said:


> ........*What - he's taking advice from Boris? #-o :lol: *......



Just for the benefit of those newly arrived from Mars, Boris isn't giving advice, he is giving instructions.

Oooops, semantic-hole.......That's not aimed at you, Lons. I'm not suggesting you are newly arrived from Mars. I'm just ...........never mind................stop digging Mike....


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## Lons (25 Mar 2020)

Hmmm. Looks as if you are on the mend Mike =D> :lol:


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## Trevanion (25 Mar 2020)

John Brown":hq98jqs1 said:


> One of the mods once linked to a thread wherein Jacob had given advice about shaping spindle moulder cutters, and was attacked by another forum member in a way that was totally unwarranted.



Ah yes, that thread. To be fair to Roger, I think he (And several other members) had a couple of serious spats with Jacob in the days prior so that's why tensions were a bit high I think.

It wasn't so bad when Jacob got things right, it was when he got things absolutely dangerously wrong and wouldn't back down from his statements. 

Here's a similar thread I came across on another forum once which gave me a chuckle, some of the things Jacob came up with were down-right lethal if put to actual use such as using smooth knives in a serrated block under an incorrect assumption it will hold better than a smooth jawed block. And then there's just putting out false statements like "_you all seem to have missed that it is an early version of a limited block, but shown without the limiters._" why comment on something you have no clue about what you're looking at? I haven't been at this lark particularly long comparatively but even I know that's a Diangle block for two separate cutting angles.

I sometimes wonder how a man with supposedly 30+ years of experience could be oh so wrong so often, loose weights on top a board on a surface planer? I mean... Come on...


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## Doug B (25 Mar 2020)

John Brown":1jumkbul said:


> The real problem with Jacob was the gang of people who tripped over themselves to attack him.
> Whatever you may think, I was not not a fan, he had/has his faults, but some forum members were, in my opinion, childishly antagonistic..



& still do John even though or perhaps because he can no longer answer back.


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## Vann (25 Mar 2020)

When I first joined this forum (~2008) he was posting as _Mr Grimsdale _- and I believe that was at least his second persona - having been banned under a previous name.

I think he was banned again under the Grimsdale name, and when eventually allowed back used his own name.

From a 2009 thread


Jake":bb71o95g said:


> woodbloke":bb71o95g said:
> 
> 
> > Lord Nibbo":bb71o95g said:
> ...


So I guess there's a long history of him undertaking troll-like activities - and of others baiting him.

Cheers, Vann.


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## shed9 (25 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":35a4pmji said:


> There's two ways of discussing/ arguing: you can stick to the facts, or you can get personal. As soon as you start talking about the other person, and about your superior abilities/ knowledge/ whatever compared to that person, then you've lost the argument, and you are susceptible to the accusation that you are trolling. To tell anyone that you know more than they do about a subject you have to actually know how much they know. The way you approach these discussions, though, isn't in the spirit of finding out what the other person knows, and so you are logically unable to sustain any sort of claim of superior knowledge/ skill/ experience. You don't do discussion so much as lecture, and you pay no attention to the level of expertise in your audience (you've just admitted as much with Charlesworth, for instance). And yet you're the first to call people trolls. Anyone who questions you is a troll. You've said pretty much that in one of your videos. It's a very strange approach to the idea of a discussion forum.


The irony meter is off the scale here, yet again. Would that be discussing like;


MikeG.":35a4pmji said:


> Oh for goodness sake. Far too many broad statements. I've had a cheapie for over 30 years that is 100%. It hasn't changed at all. Look, I don't give a damn if you want to waste money on pointlessly expensive kit, but don't try to justify it to me by making stuff up.


Or


MikeG.":35a4pmji said:


> Do you not bother actually reading what people write? Or is it that you simply assume that anyone who says anything which contradicts your viewpoint must be lying? I've already told you that this claim of yours is wrong. My language will get stronger if you keep repeating such nonsense in the face of the decades-long experience of others. You've obviously never bought anything at the lower end of the price range, so you quite clearly don't have the first idea what you are talking about.............so why pontificate, when all you do is show your ignorance to those of us who have bought cheaper squares than you? Stop, think, and maybe, just maybe......learn.


Or


MikeG.":35a4pmji said:


> Stop making stuff up and you won't induce strong reactions. You are about to join a very short list of mine which means our interactions on this forum come to an end. There are many sphincters in the human body, but you clearly aren't talking about the Pyloric sphincter, Glissons sphincter, or the cardiac sphincter. Ta ta.


Or


MikeG.":35a4pmji said:


> Do you not see that there is an arrogance inherent even with a comment like that? You're on a forum of woodworkers. I very much doubt that there is a single one here who hasn't got a plane, but more than that, there are professionals here who have been trained at length in hand tool work and who use a plane for hours every day in their working lives. The equivalent in architecture would be me going on an architect's forum and telling the other architects that I knew better than them, and they should be doing it my way. If I did that I would expect some push-back from the other forumites...........and I really wouldn't be calling those who questioned me trolls. That is what you are doing. If you were on a forum of pastry chefs or plumbers or whatever and the subject of planing somehow cropped up, you might well feel entitled to give a gentle lecture, and you might well feel it unlikely that anyone knew enough about the subject to question you. Not, however, on a forum of woodworkers.


Or


MikeG.":35a4pmji said:


> You just don't help yourself, do you. Can you think of any reason at all why David Charlesworth might have called you arrogant?


Asking for a friend....

Oh and stop the constant jibes at moderators, it's a thankless task made worse by jibes.

Been absent for while, hope everyone is safe and staying safe.


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## D_W (25 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":2fk73gy2 said:


> D_W":2fk73gy2 said:
> 
> 
> > .......... Could I be called a troll? I guess. David Charlesworth said something along the lines to me about being the most arrogant person he's come across because I was insistent I knew more about plane design and use than he does..........
> ...



Can you imagine someone who didn't really know that much about architecture (but perhaps they've built a few things and may even be a decent builder) telling you what's what about architecture? It's kind of like that.

You don't need to have a pleasant discussion when they're ignoring your advice, you need to get them to stop and try your advice so that the discussion can progress. 

I tend not to comment on things I don't know much about, which probably compounds the perception. I'd prefer that the discussion advances rather than getting stuck in mediocrity, but if someone is OK with just treading water, I'd prefer they inform me of that, too. 

I would also prefer that the people who are experts in a narrow area tell me they are, give me something provable and I'll go try it rather than arguing with them. I can think of a few folks on other forum who like provable things - I guess that rubs some the wrong way because they're really here to be in sort of a woodworking theme park.


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## nabs (25 Mar 2020)

well, I miss Jacob. I don't miss all the carping and moaning that ensued pretty much every time he offered an opinion. Bizarrely this aspect of the forum continues unabated even now he is no longer posting. Most odd!


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## Bm101 (25 Mar 2020)

Lurked nailed this thread in the first post in two sentences a month ago.
I used to be a bit baffled by some of his posts and the fact that he obviously enjoyed baiting people he had never met was alien to me. He talked some real sense about some stuff mind especially puncturing the myth of posh tools and in this climate I'm very glad to hear from Doug he is well.
But he also took real enjoyment out of baiting people. It worked. Look at this thread. 
A month later its still going amid a global pandemic. Wtf. I'll have a bet he checks up on this thread and has a good old chuckle that some of you are still irritated even now. 
Be honest I reckon if he was a local in your pub (remember them?  ) he'd probably be a bit of a craic to have a pint with tbh. Interesting. Maybe just not every day.


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## Steliz (25 Mar 2020)

I assumed it was a measure of just how bored the forumites have got under the current situation when they are resurrecting old threads. LOOK! Now you've got me doing it.


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## MikeG. (25 Mar 2020)

D_W":2cikslnq said:


> ........Can you imagine someone who didn't really know that much about architecture (but perhaps they've built a few things and may even be a decent builder) telling you what's what about architecture? It's kind of like that.........



Do you not see that there is an arrogance inherent even with a comment like that? You're on a forum of woodworkers. I very much doubt that there is a single one here who hasn't got a plane, but more than that, there are professionals here who have been trained at length in hand tool work and who use a plane for hours every day in their working lives. The equivalent in architecture would be me going on an architect's forum and telling the other architects that I knew better than them, and they should be doing it my way. If I did that I would expect some push-back from the other forumites...........and I really wouldn't be calling those who questioned me trolls. That is what you are doing. If you were on a forum of pastry chefs or plumbers or whatever and the subject of planing somehow cropped up, you might well feel entitled to give a gentle lecture, and you might well feel it unlikely that anyone knew enough about the subject to question you. Not, however, on a forum of woodworkers.


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## D_W (25 Mar 2020)

Sure, I get that. I don't know how many woodworkers are planing every day for hours but I would embarrass most of the people you're talking about if it came to using planes and measuring results. 

All I need is something provable otherwise. Like the following:
* i learned to use the cap iron in isolation. A video subsequently came out and I advised to ignore the numbers in it and avoid making jigs to set a cap iron. Almost decade later, someone had a paper translated from the makers of the video that advised setting a hand plane (the video was for a power tool) and it matched my advice. 
* i've advised professional woodworkers on reducing labor planing and made planes for some that were used for paying work (to my knowledge, their businesses have grown and now they're using machines). At least one of these woodworkers was planing to finish for commission work in solid wood
* I've subsequently found that everything that I've advised (from experience) is in nicholson's text except for one thing (i expect to find out now why I'm wrong about that - it has to do with contouring a cap to follow an iron on a plane with a flat sole). 

You may not grasp the subtleties here because it's not economically or effort important if you're not using planes that much. It's not by chance that I figured out the same things that nicholson advises, and came to prefer plane designs that were necessary to compete economically. I have the experience to get to that point - most don't. I don't have the option to turn to a thickness sander, I don't have a power jointer or dust extraction. If someone doesn't do enough planing for my advice to matter, that's fine. If they do and they ignore it, then that's too bad for them. 

I can spot people who don't know as much about this stuff easily - it's because they haven't sweated it out. 

This isn't an american thing, by the way - most americans also avoid conflict and try to be conciliatory, even if it means other people are misled about statements of fact. 

I tend to know more about sharpening media than most people, too. Almost everyone. There's a reason for that. People ignore my advice all the time - that's OK. If they're going to, I wish they'd tell me ahead of time so that I wouldn't waste my time. I"m not looking for groups of beginners to advise - if I wanted to do that, I could teach those people here. I don't make planes for beginners, either. For a very good reason.


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## D_W (25 Mar 2020)

add one person I forgot about -I've heard graham blackburn put a talk on at CW here in 2010 where he used a common plane and planed anything that was put in front of him. 

I'm not sure how nobody in the room grasped the importance of it, but literally nobody was able to make anything of it until years later.


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## MikeG. (25 Mar 2020)

D_W":t90xj12k said:


> .......I would embarrass most of the people you're talking about if it came to using planes.......
> 
> ........You may not grasp the subtleties here......
> 
> ...



You just don't help yourself, do you. Can you think of any reason at all why David Charlesworth might have called you arrogant?


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## Andy Kev. (26 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":3li1tvqw said:


> D_W":3li1tvqw said:
> 
> 
> > .......I would embarrass most of the people you're talking about if it came to using planes.......
> ...


I think you have to cut DW a bit of cultural slack here. While those sort of remarks are completely beyond the pale in British circles and could even earn you a punch in the teeth from some people, it is much more normal in US culture to make very blunt - and to us brash - claims about where you stand and what you represent. The only point is if it's BS or not. In the case of DW it is probably not and certainly with regard to his experience of sharpening it definitely isn't.

The other side of the coin is that Americans can sometimes take our politeness when expressed obliquely as being a bit false. And they don't do irony, never, ever. What for us could be a devastating ironic put down would probably go completely undetected in Yank circles. That's not to have a go at them. It's just a cultural difference.


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## D_W (26 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":38odvb24 said:


> D_W":38odvb24 said:
> 
> 
> > .......I would embarrass most of the people you're talking about if it came to using planes.......
> ...



About planing? Of course. As a friend of mine would say, it's not boasting if you can do it. I don't know why he says that, I always thought it was still boasting, but I am saying those items as statements for two reasons. To put them out there (i care less about someone thinking that I have false humility about them. I actually despise the "me so humble, let me prove i'm more humble than you" crowd), and second, to have them tested by someone else who can disprove them (I'm happier to be wrong and learn than to do nothing and not).


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## MikeG. (26 Mar 2020)

D_W":1gcj8nx7 said:


> ....... Of course. As a friend of mine would say, it's not boasting if you can do it. .........



It is here. It is possibly our biggest social taboo. You simply do not, in any circumstances, blow your own trumpet. It's worse than queue-jumping, or urinating in your mother-in-law's fireplace on christmas day. Do it here (Britain) and your witnesses immediately hold you in contempt.


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## D_W (26 Mar 2020)

Andy Kev.":1txvo9z5 said:


> The other side of the coin is that Americans can sometimes take our politeness when expressed obliquely as being a bit false. And they don't do irony, never, ever. What for us could be a devastating ironic put down would probably go completely undetected in Yank circles. That's not to have a go at them. It's just a cultural difference.



You're right. In the US, people tend to be distrustful (not all - the south comes to mind where this kind of thing is standard fare) of someone who says one thing to them and something to someone else. I learned the hard way in the south that this is common. There are some mannerisms that aren't that common here (one comes to mind from a youtube channel, the habit of some folks in the UK to smile when they're talking to you when there doesn't seem to be a reason to smile). 

You're also right that the slights don't really work from UK to US. 

In all of this, strangely enough, the most literal and blunt person I know is English. But he's in the United States because he prefers it here. He's definitely a unique case (in more ways than one). 

The things I know well (planes probably better than sharpening, but because they can reduce labor more to me), I know well. But they're limited to that. If you asked me about the fastest way to make a piece of furniture, outside of the planing part, I couldn't tell you much. As much as I'd embarrass a lot of professional makers planing, if it came to making an entire piece of furniture, I don't have the experience to begin to compete. 

The flip side to this also, is I doubt that most professional makers would care as they're focused on the furniture and not the planing or making of the planes. I think that's perfectly reasonable, and if you said "your fascination with planes and planing is dumb", I'm not bothered by that, and from your point of view if they're not important to you, I'd even agree.


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## D_W (26 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":2bav5x8x said:


> D_W":2bav5x8x said:
> 
> 
> > ....... Of course. As a friend of mine would say, it's not boasting if you can do it. .........
> ...



This is strange, as folks from England and Scotland who make it over here are quite eager to tell us why the UK is better (houses cost more, country is much older, etc). But I don't doubt what you say. It sounds like a secret game. 

In the US, if you do it, people will probably say "prove it", and they're fine with it if you can, but we do have some "sore cheeks" type folks who don't like anyone who can do anything well. That's human nature. They populate forums to some extent and their objective is to find people who are bold and good at things and bury their threads until they get banned so that the level of discussion on the forums stays low and unthreatening. 

http://www.cybozone.com/fg/wilson1.html#wilson6

It reminds me of something George had once said. The lute rose at the top of this page is a level of work I'll never achieve, most won't. Most professional makers own't ever be able to design, make the tools for and execute something like that. Someone accused him on the forum of taking credit for his apprentices' work, and he flatly said "the work is mine. None of them would've been capable of it". I suppose that it would be received even less well there than it was here, but eventually the folks who just want a woodworking site that's a false confidence booster ran him off by harassing his threads.


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## MikeG. (26 Mar 2020)

D_W":2flei036 said:


> MikeG.":2flei036 said:
> 
> 
> > D_W":2flei036 said:
> ...



That's an entirely different matter. It's perfectly OK to say this or that is better than the other, but to say "_I _am better....." Sheesh. That's the lowest of the low. 



> I don't doubt what you say. It sounds like a secret game.........



It's neither secret, nor a game. Everyone knows it, and everyone does it. The British simply cannot tolerate braggards. Clearly Americans can, because Trump.


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## D_W (26 Mar 2020)

I'm better at ____ and "I'm better than person X" (in general) are viewed *drastically differently* in the united states. The first is said often, usually the person saying it is willing to be disproved. I have heard it once (it must be more than once, but I can only think of one) "I'm better than ___". Actually, it was "we're better than them" and the instant reaction from my dad who was present was "don't include us in we, we're not interested in talking like that". You'd be considered dumb as far as I can recall - dumb enough to make a generalized statement like that. 

I've never said that. 

As far as people boasting or being a braggard, those are two different things, too. Boasting if you can prove it is intermittent, tolerated, and if your boasting isn't credible, people generally love the opportunity to lampoon. If you're not credible, you're generally disregarded rather than resented. If you're a braggard in general (about all kinds of things), people will take the whiz out of you by telling you how great you are and torpedoing your dinghy. 

If you come here from the UK and tell everyone 45 things in a row that are better than something in the US, people will interpret as you saying "you're better" but they'll tell you about it. 

Cultural difference, I guess. If someone said they were better at X than another person and you accused them of saying they're a better person, they'd tell you that you're being intentionally offensive.


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## MikeG. (26 Mar 2020)

D_W":fg8edppt said:


> .......As far as people boasting or being a braggard, those are two different things.......



Might be the case over there. Here, they amount to the same thing, and are treated with contempt. It's irrelevant whether your claims are true or not, you just shouldn't be making them on your own account. And that really is the end of the story......it's as simple as that.


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## D_W (27 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":3itvmx40 said:


> It's irrelevant whether your claims are true or not, you just shouldn't be making them on your own account. And that really is the end of the story......it's as simple as that.



If i were English, it would be as simple as that, i guess.


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## MikeG. (27 Mar 2020)

As you're not English, you can use that bit of knowledge to understand why you so often generate the reactions you do. It is then up to you, of course, whether you want to keep on bumping up against those reactions, or whether you adjust your posting style when dealing with a predominantly British audience.


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## D_W (27 Mar 2020)

MikeG.":3rrgrtlx said:


> As you're not English, you can use that bit of knowledge to understand why you so often generate the reactions you do. It is then up to you, of course, whether you want to keep on bumping up against those reactions, or whether you adjust your posting style when dealing with a predominantly British audience.



That's sort of the point of my prior post. If the subject matter gets to a user who actually uses it (see custard, for example), then I'm fine with it. I got sort of a jolt from andy-kev about the sharpening stuff. I get PMs and emails about it all the time and can't remember who I've talked to, but I'm quite fond of sharpening and the same as planing, find that most people are punishing themselves with false dilemmas. It's sort of like planing, though - I'd love to know more about the motives of the user before I start going on about results and economy of getting them without compromise (that is, most people who sharpen something once per week aren't really going to benefit from discussions of things like wanting a slow finishing medium rather than a fast one). 

It's the product of an unhealthy fascination with sharpening things but being very lazy about it (same as planing).

I also get it that English (and a lot of american) first allow a set of rules among people to dictate what they'll communicate (not just how), but a lot of americans will put fascination with the topic (especially men) first and check at the end to see who is still around.

The funny bit about it is that of my three closest friends here, all are like that, but the one who is the most offensive (by the accounts of everyone else) is English, and he made his way out of the country about 40 or 45 years ago because his father was a joiner and he wanted to be a mechanical engineer. That created a problem there in finding a job (it would make nearly no difference here), his father told him to stay in his lane more or less and take whatever his lot in life becomes and they had a multi decade falling out about it. He is still working here as an engineering manager and maybe some of his behavior is rebellion. I don't know. I appreciate how he talks, he appreciates how I talk, and we are practically giddy about lampooning each others' boasts.

He has a gigantic fondness for David Charlesworth (as do I). 

The other strange thing about him is his fondness for healthcare in the US and the regularity that he points it out (he's of means - when you have full coverage here in the states, healthcare is almost like a luxury service, I guess, but we are about to find out what it's like when even the overspending here doesn't create surplus capacity). 

There is one very english habit here, though. That is, despite the infections and death tolls increasing, many folks are of a mind to say "oh well, I'm tired of it. Let's carry on and not make a big deal about it". Unfortunately, the newspapers feel we deserve horror stories above and beyond just factual reporting.


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## MikeG. (27 Mar 2020)

If you're finally getting the point that "I know better than you" means it doesn't matter what on earth you say afterwards as you've lost your audience, then great, my work here is done. Your reply, however, can also be read as "I'll carry on as before because I'm right"......in which case you'll not have an audience. We'll see, I suppose.


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