# Couple 'teach themselves' to build a timber framed house???!



## Graham Orm (13 Nov 2014)

I'm a tad skeptical about this. What are your thoughts guys? 'Builders' put the frames up and they did the rest between them.....they say.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... floor.html


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## finneyb (13 Nov 2014)

Skeptical on roof and chimney stack - that is a complex roof to tile and the bwk on the stack has not been done by a beginner. 
But it is the Daily Mail, so a certain amount of salt will be required.

Brian


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## bugbear (13 Nov 2014)

There's a lot of weasel words and contradictions in that.

I suspect it's a typical self-build, with a mixture of own-labour, self taught skills (books + internet + practice are powerful)
+ hired tradesman.

BugBear


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## Rhossydd (13 Nov 2014)

Grayorm":2i9s7gob said:


> I'm a tad skeptical about this. What are your thoughts guys? 'Builders' put the frames up and they did the rest between them.....they say.


I can't see any reason to disbelieve this article, despite who's printing it.
Learning enough to do a competent, often very good work, just takes determination, effort and reasonable hand to eye co-ordination.
I learnt a different variation of a similar range of skills when I restored by last house; swapping wattle and daub for plastering, slating and zinc work for tiling. Plumbing, electrics and decorating are all pretty straight forward.


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## Graham Orm (13 Nov 2014)

Rhossydd":1g9fqbgi said:


> Grayorm":1g9fqbgi said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a tad skeptical about this. What are your thoughts guys? 'Builders' put the frames up and they did the rest between them.....they say.
> ...



No need to bother with college then. Are you seriously saying that they built that chimney, or tiled that roof? I've been in the industry 35 years and am pretty competent at most trades, but I know for a fact that I couldn't do that size of job without expert assistance from other trades than my own (plumber).

Edit: pipper......make that 35 years!


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## nanscombe (13 Nov 2014)

Before the government told us all that we were not competent enough to perform various tasks, unless we paid a subscription to the relevant organisation, quite a lot of people successfully managed to do DIY tasks.

Some of us did our own electrics and plumbing (not me but my dad did) and quite a number of us (I'm talking 30 years ago) even did woodwork and metalwork at school.

I would not automatically write the guy off.

Perhaps he was related to Fred Dibner. :wink:


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## Rhossydd (13 Nov 2014)

Grayorm":1z8lqki3 said:


> Are you seriously saying that they built that chimney, or tiled that roof?


I don't see why not.
Sure it might not get done as quickly as a professional, but it's all straight forward stuff.


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## doorframe (13 Nov 2014)

What's not to believe?

Quote _*‘We’d both come out of divorces and had no money,’ says Ray, 69, about their 1998 decision.*_

Oh yeah, except the £200,000. 

Then they taught themselves every trade known to man. And became master craftsmen. 

Jackanory.


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## Rhossydd (13 Nov 2014)

doorframe":1fyhwgw3 said:


> What's not to believe?
> Quote _*‘We’d both come out of divorces and had no money,’ says Ray, 69, about their 1998 decision.*_
> Oh yeah, except the £200,000.


£200k over 16 years when both people are in employment ? Where's the problem ?


> Then they taught themselves every trade known to man.


Now who's using tabloid exaggeration. They'll have researched and learnt all they _need_ to know for their own job, not everything possible.


> became master craftsmen.


I'm sure they'd be flattered by your opinion, but I doubt they'd described themselves as 'master craftsmen'.


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## nanscombe (13 Nov 2014)

> ‘At first,’ says Ray, ‘the bank refused to give us money. They saw this pile of sticks in the yard, and thought we could never build a house out of them....



Wonderful things banks, they sometimes give you money when you need it.

... and another version from the Mirror.

Couple build amazing new Tudor home from scratch - learning Elizabethan carpentry, roofing and plumbing



> ...
> The couple bought the house in 1998 and set about teaching themselves plumbing, electrical wiring and medieval carpentry in order to create their dream home.
> ...
> “We’d never done anything like this before. We wanted to do as much of the work ourselves as we could. We ordered the timber frame from a company in Hereford and *three builders helped to put up the twenty-ton oak skeletal frame. They also helped us with a few other jobs including the insulation*.
> ...



Doesn't necessarily seem to claim any credit for the chimney here.


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## Benchwayze (14 Nov 2014)

Why should lack of 'education' and degrees prevent someone from learning practical skills. 
In 1916, my grandfather 'electrified' his back-to-back house in Aston; he didn't read well, and he could just about write enough to sign his name. He also ran his own business as a filemaker. I had the story about the electricity from my father, who I know, wouldn't have concocted a story like that. He also told me the MOD were very interested in the nature of the 'contraption' that was in the cellar; the generator of course! I believe they thought it was a radio transmitter!


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## bugbear (14 Nov 2014)

Benchwayze":1yncodc9 said:


> Why should lack of 'education' and degrees prevent someone from learning practical skills.
> In 1916, my grandfather 'electrified' his back-to-back house in Aston; he didn't read well, and he could just about write enough to sign his name. He also ran his own business as a filemaker. I had the story about the electricity from my father, who I know, wouldn't have concocted a story like that. He also told me the MOD were very interested in the nature of the 'contraption' that was in the cellar; the generator of course! I believe they thought it was a radio transmitter!



If it was a home made generator, it probably was (also) a radio transmitter.  

BugBear


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## Benchwayze (14 Nov 2014)

Thanks BB... 

I can't testify to that of course. I knew the neighbours didn't like my Grandfather very much. Nor did most people, I am led to believe. Maybe they thought he was talking to the Germans! Anyhow, the MOD were satisfied; and yes they did visit. :roll: 

One thing I do recall seeing was the shed he built on his allotment. It's a long time ago, but wow! The family used to bunk-up there at weekends! Don't think he electrified that mind! :mrgreen:


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## AJB Temple (22 Oct 2015)

Don't you think that any trade can be learned, especially by intelligent people, if you put some time into it? There has to be an acceptance that mistakes will be made, but as a society I think we have gone backwards in the lat 20 years by creating a dependence on tradesmen, many of whom have a very narrow skill set.


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## Sheffield Tony (22 Oct 2015)

nanscombe":3ni3w37l said:


> Before the government told us all that we were not competent enough to perform various tasks, unless we paid a subscription to the relevant organisation, quite a lot of people successfully managed to do DIY tasks.
> 
> Some of us did our own electrics and plumbing (not me but my dad did) and quite a number of us (I'm talking 30 years ago) even did woodwork and metalwork at school.



Absolutely. There is so much protectionism about trades and traditional/heritage crafts. We are not talking rocket science. I've completely re-plumbed my house including CH (bit of help from a Corgi with the gas connection), done quite a lot of re-wiring (before part P deemed me not competent despite being a CEng EE), laid bricks, plastered, all without going near a college course. Ok I did them slowly and carefully where a skilled and practiced tradesman might have got it done a whole lot quicker. Only the plastering was really hard - because you can't take your time !


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## woodaxed (22 Oct 2015)

elephant droppings 

Having spent £200,000 on building the property, it is now worth in excess of £600,000. Mr Blundell has since built another two - and sold them on - just down the road


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## NazNomad (22 Oct 2015)

They made a wonderful job of carving the bed and upholstering the sofa. probably just did it in their spare time.


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## RogerS (22 Oct 2015)

AJB Temple":y6dljymt said:


> Don't you think that any trade can be learned, especially by intelligent people, if you put some time into it? There has to be an acceptance that mistakes will be made, but as a society I think we have gone backwards in the lat 20 years by creating a dependence on tradesmen, many of whom have a very narrow skill set.



If you have the time. go do it.


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## Graham Orm (22 Oct 2015)

AJB Temple":62uu8bqo said:


> Don't you think that any trade can be learned, especially by intelligent people, if you put some time into it? There has to be an acceptance that mistakes will be made, but as a society I think we have gone backwards in the lat 20 years by creating a dependence on tradesmen, many of whom have a very narrow skill set.



Yes of course given 4/5 years per trade. Surely in the last 20 years the tradesmen with the "limited" skill set have almost died out.


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## AJB Temple (22 Oct 2015)

It does not take 4/5 years or anything like it to learn any individual trade sufficient to build a house. Every trade and profession seeks to create a protective mystique. High end skills are hard to acquire, but sufficient skills for typical domestic building tasks much less so. This is just my opinion, others may have a different view of course. 

Forums like this are very helpful in encouraging acquisition of skills.


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## Beau (22 Oct 2015)

AJB Temple":3pwiz9ta said:


> Don't you think that any trade can be learned, especially by intelligent people, if you put some time into it? There has to be an acceptance that mistakes will be made, but as a society I think we have gone backwards in the lat 20 years by creating a dependence on tradesmen, many of whom have a very narrow skill set.



Completely agree. 

Built my own place doing most trades except plastering. Wouldn't even class myself as intelligent. Most trades aren't brain surgery and can be done to a good standard with care and common sense. Where the skilled trades come into their own is speed. Had a friend come to help with pointing (he is a stone mason). He did five times as much as me for a given time with almost no mess. I ended up making him some furniture in exchange for doing all the pointing.


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## AJB Temple (23 Oct 2015)

Ha - yes plastering. The trouble is that your mistakes are very visible  as is all the mess. Fully agree re speed too. But if we take our time and do research most things are possible. Wiring is a good example. Most sensible DIYers could cope with a wiring diagram and it is not hard to work out specs for the design. Part P is not as daunting as all that (lots of short courses available, includng night school) and the building control route is always available. If you are doing a self build, it is probably worth the relative short course to get Part P certified anyway. There is so much knowledge readily available via the internet these days, so we have far more resources than we had even 10 years ago.


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## Graham Orm (23 Oct 2015)

Hilarious


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Oct 2015)

What is?


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## Sporky McGuffin (23 Oct 2015)

AJB Temple":3pnha9ba said:


> Don't you think that any trade can be learned, especially by intelligent people, if you put some time into it?



Of course it can - trades people learn their own trades after all. Getting good results requires some combination of practice and fixing as you go along. Even rocket science isn't brain surgery, and with all the resources on the inferweb there isn't much that a motivated person can't get the hang of.

I just had a bathroom redone not because I couldn't do it myself, but because I wanted it done quickly and well with the minimum of fuss - I have other things to do with my time. Similarly we're getting someone in to strip, plaster and paint the living room, hall, stairs and landing, and the stairs will be carpeted by someone else. I'll be either repairing the parquet flooring (previous owners ripped a load out to put in a hideous, brobdingnagian yellow brick fireplace) or fitting some engineered wood floor myself, because I've done that a few times and quite enjoy it. First two attempts were OK, third was pretty good, fourth was nigh on perfect.


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## Graham Orm (23 Oct 2015)

phil.p":1vpip5x4 said:


> What is?



How dismissive some people are of the trades.


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## Water-Mark (23 Oct 2015)

They didn't actually learn any trades, simply the skills they needed and even then only learned them well enough for each job.

I'm sure there's some exaggeration in the claims but i don't see why it's impossible. 
After all isn't learning new skills what most of us on here do all the time. 

And besides it may look shocking close up!


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## Beau (23 Oct 2015)

Graham Orm":a58yl75p said:


> phil.p":a58yl75p said:
> 
> 
> > What is?
> ...



If that was for me I did not mean to be dismissive skilled tradesman. Only that you can pick up a way to do most jobs satisfactorily. Where the expert has a vast range of knowledge of their trade one's own house will only need a small part of that (hope that makes sense). I muddled through our place at a painfully slow rate but by taking my time reading up on the specific task and taking care you can get over most hurdles.


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## Lons (23 Oct 2015)

Yeah and pigs might fly as well! :lol: :lol: 

No Money but paid £90k for land and bought the oak frame before the bank agreed to loan them money and they must have had architect drawings, planning approval and building regs as well or they wouldn't have got the loan from the bank. Were they also so foolish to have the frame delivered before the groundworks, founds and drainage were in - doubtful.

So ... a then 52 year old holding down a responsible job with his working wife and still finding time for activities like running, did all the construction themselves except the frame? Brickwork, plastering, stud walls, rendering, roofing, ceilings, electrics, plumbing, flooring, tiling, heating system, windows & doors not to mention the garden and all without prior experience. What about the logistics nightmare of ordering and co-ordinating materials as well as the time it takes to choose them in the first place along with the paperwork that goes with it? (hammer) Did they also fit the bathrooms and kitchen, doesn't say they didn't does it? :wink: 
Remember also that there are a couple of English winters in there as well or maybe they don't get rain, snow and short daylight hours in Staffordshire :lol: 

C'mon, anyone here who's fitted their own bathroom or kitchen for the first time or built a garden wall knows how long that takes and as a retired builder it's my honest opinion that it just isn't possible even in 2 1/2 years without significant imput from tradesmen and I'd suggest it's a classic case of a rather large dollop of poetic licence.

I have a customer who tells everyone he converted his own grade 2 listed stable though I'm not quite sure what he did apart from hang a few pictures. :lol: :lol: 

Bob

Any


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## RogerS (23 Oct 2015)

Graham Orm":26m4q8li said:


> phil.p":26m4q8li said:
> 
> 
> > What is?
> ...



+1 =D>


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## doorframe (24 Oct 2015)

my wife's cousin converts barns. what he can do with 1 stroke of his pen is amazing.

If you fall for this rubbish you're a bit of a dick.


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## sitefive (26 Oct 2015)

lololololol at this post and this is called carpentry Forum? what the hell? I'm 25 now had no former education in building, got a free piece of land, drawed up all the plans for a house gave a good whiskey and few notes to an architect just to put his stamp on the plan and sign it off, paid local guy to help me set-up timber frame as its not a 1 person job , the rest did all myself and now have a nice 130m2 house with no mortgage and probably worth 4x as much as I spent on it. The worst part in all that was getting over the red tape because supposedly there are stuff you aren't supposed to do yourself but pay someone to do...doh.. Even in a forum like this you guys are saying that this is impossible . #-o 

It took me about a year and I spent most of my weekends on the site and than also worked a lot at nights but was it worth it? Yes.. My dad is a sparky and good at plumbing and I wired the house/set up water with a lot of his help and knowledge , but I'm positive that If I was building another house now I could do it all by myself now having all this experience. 

Also you aren't supposed to master each of the trade, there are tons of tutorials for everything on Youtube , as long as you aren't total retard and have hands growing from the right place most of the stuff isn't that hard or difficult!


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## cusimar9 (26 Oct 2015)

Fair play to them. If I was mad enough, had £200k and 16 years to spare, I'd probably learn to build my own house too


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## blackrodd (26 Oct 2015)

sitefive":kqrq87cr said:


> lololololol at this post and this is called carpentry Forum? what the hell? I'm 25 now had no former education in building, got a free piece of land, drawed up all the plans for a house gave a good whiskey and few notes to an architect just to put his stamp on the plan and sign it off, paid local guy to help me set-up timber frame as its not a 1 person job , the rest did all myself and now have a nice 130m2 house with no mortgage and probably worth 4x as much as I spent on it. The worst part in all that was getting over the red tape because supposedly there are stuff you aren't supposed to do yourself but pay someone to do...doh.. Even in a forum like this you guys are saying that this is impossible . #-o
> 
> It took me about a year and I spent most of my weekends on the site and than also worked a lot at nights but was it worth it? Yes.. My dad is a sparky and good at plumbing and I wired the house/set up water with a lot of his help and knowledge , but I'm positive that If I was building another house now I could do it all by myself now having all this experience.
> 
> Also you aren't supposed to master each of the trade, there are tons of tutorials for everything on Youtube , as long as you aren't total retard and have hands growing from the right place most of the stuff isn't that hard or difficult!



I pity the poor soul that buys you're house, from what you are saying, you bribed an architect to "sign off" any 
building regs you chose to ignore, as well as foundation depth drainage etc, electrics and plumbing compliance 
and certification,"red tape" and looking at you're posts, you've been buying up tools since July, you don't know how to use a jigsaw, and got in a tiswas over what blades to use, and last week you couldn't get you're new planer to work said you're new planer cutters were not set properly, from the factory, then they were. Whatever.
Some people are capable of mastering several trades, From reading you're posts, I believe you are not one of these 
people, As someone said last week, you're a difficult man to help
This Red tape you refer too, planning permission, building regs, etc connecting up to gas, sewage and electricity,
That you seem so pleased to have ignored is for mr and mrs public's safeguard when they have signed up for 30 years of mortgage payments!, I expect you will have disappeared by then, Do you know Esther Rantzen?
Rodders


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## sitefive (26 Oct 2015)

blackrodd":2u0m5s5x said:


> sitefive":2u0m5s5x said:
> 
> 
> > lololololol at this post and this is called carpentry Forum? what the hell? I'm 25 now had no former education in building, got a free piece of land, drawed up all the plans for a house gave a good whiskey and few notes to an architect just to put his stamp on the plan and sign it off, paid local guy to help me set-up timber frame as its not a 1 person job , the rest did all myself and now have a nice 130m2 house with no mortgage and probably worth 4x as much as I spent on it. The worst part in all that was getting over the red tape because supposedly there are stuff you aren't supposed to do yourself but pay someone to do...doh.. Even in a forum like this you guys are saying that this is impossible . #-o
> ...



Well at least I'm not a whiny phaggot who just pays someone to do the stuff you can try and do yourself, everyone has to start somewhere, Am I going to waste time and ask someone to do stuff for me just because I think it may be too hard? No I'm going to find a way to do it and learn a new skill in the process.
That attitude gets you nowhere, I'm well aware of the building regs and have followed everything to the point as It's a house I built for myself ,by what means I have got to the outcome is another question.There is nothing wrong with making the plans for the house yourself and doing all the leg work yourself and just let someone double-check and sign it off for a fraction of the price.

People in this country aren't even capable of selling their own homes, They must let an ''agent'' sell it #-o Pathetic...


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## blackrodd (27 Oct 2015)

People in this country aren't even capable of selling their own homes, They must let an ''agent'' sell it #-o Pathetic...[/quote]

Yes you're right there, "The people in this country are pathetic"
I'm not sure for how much longer though.
Rodders


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## rafezetter (27 Oct 2015)

I can't understand why this has caused so much controversy - I suggest those that think this article is mostly false watch all 11 series of "Grand designs" (the one about housebuilding) and you'll see dozens of people all doing it for themselves because they don't have the money to pay someone else - and in most of the cases - doing a bloody good job of it too. I saw one episode where a retired couple bought what was just a falling down shell in a small village in france and did the entire renovations themselves, and both of them were past 60 before they even started. It was three floors and all it had were the walls, and even those were barely standing up.

I'm actually quite saddend to see so many of the people here whom have obvously learned how to do a skill so dismissive of others doing the same; so incredibly small minded and judgemental, that I'll struggle to give anything they post from now on barely more than a cursory glance. And some people say Jacob is bad.

I assume they also think all those groups of "ordinary" people who are part of home building co-operatives are also faking that too....

Oh, and lets not forget just how "professional" many of the tradesmen are nowadays eh? Why is there such a plethora of people having to call out another tradesman to put right what a different "tradesman" did the first time - and why so many customers think that better than 50% of tradesmen are little more than bodging cowboys in a van?


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## blackrodd (27 Oct 2015)

I'm actually quite saddend to see so many of the people here whom have obvously learned how to do a skill so dismissive of others doing the same; so incredibly small minded and judgemental, that I'll struggle to give anything they post from now on barely more than a cursory glance. And some people say Jacob is bad.

I assume they also think all those groups of "ordinary" people who are part of home building co-operatives are also faking that too....

Oh, and lets not forget just how "professional" many of the tradesmen are nowadays eh? Why is there such a plethora of people having to call out another tradesman to put right what a different "tradesman" did the first time - and why so many customers think that better than 50% of tradesmen are little more than bodging cowboys in a van?[/quote]


Perhaps you would like to look towards the end of you're post, as above, 
Do you not think that you're top paragraph starting," I'm actually quite saddened" etc, etc, may have a large bearing upon the you're next statement "lets not forget just how "professional" many" etc, etc. 
These people thrive because many people like a cheap job, and they are not always easy to spot right away.
You've probably answered you're own post, who, if anyone taught these cowboys with the white van?
The original post concerned a couple having "Taught themselves" carpentry and joinery, roofing, tiling, and most other trades involved in a typical housebuild,
As it was a newspaper article, and that unlikely claim, alongside the financial inconsistency's showed, in my and others opinion, the article for it's worth.
Watching utube vids and book reading, will not result in many competent trades people, nor my favourite, Google.
If it were that easy, we would not have so many "how do I do this?" queries on this forum to answer.
The "Judgemental" knowledgeable tradesmen is valued on that occasion!
As on some other threads, some love love a bit of Jacob bashing, 
So off we go.
If you're post was meant for me, I stand by my earlier posts concerning bribery, and"red tape", etc
Self build? I answered an ad for 6 self builder people a few years ago on timber frame build, 2 were very quick on
picking up the skills and the others were ok, just slogged hard doing most of the lobouring, enjoyed that one.
Regards Rodders.


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## Lons (28 Oct 2015)

I doubt any sensible person would honestly decry the considerable efforts of the couple in question or anyone else who's invested the time and effort to learn skills and made sacrifices to build or convert their own home, I certainly wouldn't.
What I did question was the content of the story which makes no sense at all and I seriously don't believe they did it all themselves (as reported except the frame) without help. Note I didn't say they couldn't learn the skills just that it's typical "condensed" reporting and maybe some selective memory loss. I know a number of people including some of my customers who boast of doing it themselves when all they actually did was sketch an idea on the back of a fag packet. One of my friends has just moved into her dream home in Newcastle, her "self build project" but all she did was pay the bills and argue with the different trades and delaying all of them by constantly changing her mind midstream then arguing about the extra costs because of that. I turned the job down, just as well as we wouldn't be friends anymore. (hammer) 

Same for sitefive. Great achievement if as you say you "_did the rest yoursel_f" but in the next statement you said of your father " _with a lot of his help and knowledge_" so the inference is that maybe you didn't do it all. :wink: 

Where does it say this is a "carpentry forum" btw and when I went to school plans were drawn not "drawed" - perhaps just strong dialect :lol: 
I've always drawn up my own plans and in later years took the trouble to familiarise myself with Autocad to make it quicker but learning anything new takes time and drawing plans for a full house is a big investment in that.
Your post suggests a timber frame kit house btw and my experience of these suppliers is that they usually provide detailed plans and instructions so I'm a bit surprised you didn't take advantage of that facility.

Yes anyone with a modicum of intelligence and commonsense can learn the skills necessary to build a house just as they could with the same determination study for a degree, take an apprenticeship, start their own business or just live life to the full.

Bob


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## Graham Orm (28 Oct 2015)

Lons":3id7o6in said:


> I doubt any sensible person would honestly decry the considerable efforts of the couple in question or anyone else who's invested the time and effort to learn skills and made sacrifices to build or convert their own home, I certainly wouldn't.
> What I did question was the content of the story which makes no sense at all and I seriously don't believe they did it all themselves (as reported except the frame) without help. Note I didn't say they couldn't learn the skills just that it's typical "condensed" reporting and maybe some selective memory loss. I know a number of people including some of my customers who boast of doing it themselves when all they actually did was sketch an idea on the back of a fag packet. One of my friends has just moved into her dream home in Newcastle, her "self build project" but all she did was pay the bills and argue with the different trades and delaying all of them by constantly changing her mind midstream then arguing about the extra costs because of that. I turned the job down, just as well as we wouldn't be friends anymore. (hammer)
> 
> Same for sitefive. Great achievement if as you say you "_did the rest yoursel_f" but in the next statement you said of your father " _with a lot of his help and knowledge_" so the inference is that maybe you didn't do it all. :wink:
> ...


 =D> =D>


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## rafezetter (29 Oct 2015)

Hmm... I'm not sure why Blackrodd would think my post was solely for him but hey ho. 

What I had hoped was transparent about my comment regarding the cowboy builders was that you can be someone who actually took a course in a trade at some point and STILL be a bodging cowboy builder, with the mentality "get it done, get the money, and get out" and you can also be a self taught "DIY tradesman" of sorts who will work with the attitude "my wife is watching and if I screw this up there will be hell to pay"; with every shade imaginable in between.

Having done a course - or even passing an exam or several is absolutely ZERO indication of attitude towards the work or the client once you've got that certificate; not even how many years you've been in business counts, because there are always those who will get away with doing "just enough" to get paid.

I think that the words self taught were used in the article because its simpler to say that then "they bought a bunch of books, watch youtube vids and got advice from friends and others" but even then - unless you go and ask them and they admit they took nightclasses and had private sessions with woodworkers, sparkies and other trades people; then you'll just have to accept what was written. Simply stating "I don't beleive it's possible" is closeminded without proof.

There are wonders that have been made by man, often untrained amateurs that are amazing - do you disregard those with the same viewpoint?

http://www.boredpanda.com/cave-carving-ra-paulette-new-mexico/

Read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra_Paulette

and another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Garden_of_Chandigarh

that's what saddens me - that people don't beleive this is possible when there is proof it can be.


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## Fatboy (29 Oct 2015)

rafezetter":3erv3l8g said:


> I can't understand why this has caused so much controversy - I suggest those that think this article is mostly false watch all 11 series of "Grand designs" (the one about housebuilding) and you'll see dozens of people all doing it for themselves because they don't have the money to pay someone else - and in most of the cases - doing a bloody good job of it too. I saw one episode where a retired couple bought what was just a falling down shell in a small village in france and did the entire renovations themselves, and both of them were past 60 before they even started. It was three floors and all it had were the walls, and even those were barely standing up.



That's probably my all time favourite 'episode' of Grand Designs and it makes your point perfectly. 

I've worked on some self builds, many where the owner has bought in every trade upto and including interior design and one where a young couple with two kids under 3 did it all themselves because they simply couldn't afford to pay for trades but wanted their own design. I watched his wife learn to lay blocks when they were coming out of the ground and greatly admired the incredible face brick fireplace she created 20 months later. I offered to help them put the roof on, they just asked for advice and confirmation a few times but did it all themselves in the end.

Where there is a will.....


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## doorframe (29 Oct 2015)

rafezetter":anvpfo5w said:


> ... then you'll just have to accept what was written.



Just like 'The Sun' readers.


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## Lons (29 Oct 2015)

> What I had hoped was transparent about my comment regarding the cowboy builders was that you can be someone who actually took a course in a trade at some point and STILL be a bodging cowboy builder, with the mentality "get it done, get the money, and get out" and you can also be a self taught "DIY tradesman" of sorts who will work with the attitude "my wife is watching and if I screw this up there will be hell to pay"; with every shade imaginable in between.
> 
> Having done a course - or even passing an exam or several is absolutely ZERO indication of attitude towards the work or the client once you've got that certificate; not even how many years you've been in business counts, because there are always those who will get away with doing "just enough" to get paid.



That is of course absolutely true...however it very definitely isn't confined to just builders. There are "cowboys" for want of a better word in every industry and profession you can think of from politicians down to the guy on the dole ripping everyone off wherever they can. Blatter (FIFA) is a prime high profile example at the minute.



> I think that the words self taught were used in the article because its simpler to say that then "they bought a bunch of books, watch youtube vids and got advice from friends and others" but even then - unless you go and ask them and they admit they took nightclasses and had private sessions with woodworkers, sparkies and other trades people; then you'll just have to accept what was written. Simply stating "I don't beleive it's possible" is closeminded without proof.



I followed the usual academic route eventually managing companies for other people before setting up my building company and working for myself for 18 years before retiring a few months ago. While working full time supporting a wife and 2 kids I also lectured part time, converted my own properties while also gaining teaching and woodworking qualifications alongside the usual family commitments so I know just how much time is needed to invest in a "self build" and how much work is possible without help, in a given time bearing in mind I'm experienced not a beginner.

I don't consider myself to be "closeminded" and unless you've asked the reporter of the atricle, by stating "I think" in your above quote you are also making assumptions without proof. 
If you are naive enough to just accept and believe what you read then good luck to you. :wink: 

Bob


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