# Hand tool: sharpening and general use questions



## Dino (25 Apr 2014)

I've recently bought a used spokeshave and hand plane, the first I've ever used, as well as some used chisels.

I'm looking for some sharpening tips as well as some general usage tips as when I cut with them they are not taking the wood off "cleanly" - the shavings are tearing off rather than being shaven off. 

Am I sharpening at the wrong angle? Am I not using a high enough grit? (I have a 600 grit diamond sharpening stone).

Thanks.


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## Random Orbital Bob (25 Apr 2014)

Uh-oh.........[runs for cover].


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## Random Orbital Bob (25 Apr 2014)

seriously though. Plane iron and chisels you're best sharpening at 25 degrees ie text book. You could then if you wanted hone a very small 30 degree secondary bevel to reduce future sharpening marathons and I would personally recommend you do because regrinding the whole bevel is not my idea of a fun Sunday morning.

You could start practising doing it by hand on a stone which will be tough to start with but great long term or you could buy a simple mechanical jig which holds the blade at the correct angle on the stone (I recommend you do this).


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## Spindle (25 Apr 2014)

Hi

If you use the search function on here there's a wealth of information with regard to sharpening - set aside a few hours and absorb the collected knowledge.

Regards Mick


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## Dino (25 Apr 2014)

Sorry, I realise it was a repeat post in terms of general sharpening but I was more curious where exactly I was going wrong.

Is the wood tearing because I have the angle on the plane set badly? Is it because the angle I have sharpened the iron is bad? Or is it because I have not sharpened to a high enough grit?

Also Bob I have a bench grinder, could I utilise this in the way you described?


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## Racers (25 Apr 2014)

Dino":1f4mgw42 said:


> Is the wood tearing because I have the angle on the plane set badly? Is it because the angle I have sharpened the iron is bad? Or is it because I have not sharpened to a high enough grit?




Probably combination of all three, you need a finer grit stone or have a look at Scary Sharp method of sharpening its very cheap method, the main thing with different ways of sharpening is to find one you like and stick with it.

You could also be plaining the wood the wrong way round you need to cut with the grain.

Pete


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2014)

I'd stick with your 600 grit, sharpen at 30º, do it freehand, keep testing the results and you'll get there sooner or later.
Avoid bench grindstones altogether. Avoid flattening, polishing, spending money and the various fashions of modern sharpening.
Then when you know you can do it start looking at other options such as finer stones.
Your spokeshave blade is easier to hold in a saw kerf in a scrap of wood.
For a beginner the best way to get started is on the edge of thin boards. Easiest to plane and you can see what's going on as the shavings emerge through the mouth.
Practice practice - and waste some wood. Anything will do for practice, you don't have to spoil something good.


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## Woodmonkey (25 Apr 2014)

Chances are if its tearing then you are cutting against the grain, try turning it around. And don't worry about using a jig to get the right angle on your bevel! (There's no shame in that)


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## Random Orbital Bob (25 Apr 2014)

Dino":1yq7w0wf said:


> Sorry, I realise it was a repeat post in terms of general sharpening but I was more curious where exactly I was going wrong.
> 
> Is the wood tearing because I have the angle on the plane set badly? Is it because the angle I have sharpened the iron is bad? Or is it because I have not sharpened to a high enough grit?
> 
> Also Bob I have a bench grinder, could I utilise this in the way you described?



Hi Dino

In theory you could use your bench grinder to speed things up but.....and its a big but......the chances of things going wrong happen very fast. Consequently, as you move into the realm of grinders, you also tend to move into the world of jigs which help to keep your tool presented at a consistent angle to the sharpening medium, whether that's a sanding belt (linisher style) or a grinding wheel. The reason I made the joke of running for cover is that sharpening is a very wide topic and it illicits some of the most "heels dug in" and entrenched belief systems in the entire wood working community. Very few people have in actual fact really tried ALL the different methods and so they tend to promote and defend the one which works for their circumstances. So it tends to lead to rather heated discussion.

The debate tends to pivot around one camp being the "do it the traditional way by hand with no help and develop your inner wood workers co-ordination and skill" versus the "spend several hundred on a commercial grinder plus jigs system and have technology do it for you". There are also various shades of grey between those two ends of the spectrum.

The 64,000 dollar question is of course "What's right for you"?

If you have a tendency towards using technology to speed things up then I would research jigs, if you have a tendency to enjoy developing skills over a period of time and prefer the traditional then persevere with by hand only bevel rubbing on stones. There is nothing wrong with a 600 grit finish on a plane iron, its easily enough to be sharp enough to plane very fine shavings. People will argue you need a 3000 grit Japanese water stone....and sure that will give a fabulously polished edge but 600 grit will certainly deliver a fine enough edge for most jobs on an amateur level.

The simplest jig to use on your existing grinder is a wooden platform that you make yourself that when the chisel/plan iron is presented to the wheel, it cuts your preferred angle. Jacob recommends 30 deg, personally I also like 30 but with a primary bevel of 25 and a small secondary bevel of 30 to make the following sharpenings easier and faster. The point is you can use your grinder if you can achieve a consistent bevel facet with a known angle. Watch the heat build up like a hawk though or you'll draw the temper of the steel and it won't hold an edge (when it goes blue).

Hope that helps.

Edit: I also would pay close attention to the posters advising you to scrutinise grain direction because its entirely possible that its only your technique that's at fault and the not the iron at all. Do some experiments with chiselling one way then another to see how the different grain directions affect the cut. Also pare across the grain as well as with it to see how that goes. Trawl through google for David Charlesworth or better yet buy his DVD's, he's taken careful use of the chisel to another level.


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2014)

The point of sticking with what you have is that simple freehand sharpening is a very valuable basic skill, which every beginner should get to grips with from the start. 
It's cheap, quick, easy, effective. 
Using a bench grinder effectively is less easy for a beginner, especially with thin blades.


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## Dino (25 Apr 2014)

The bench grinder was just a question because I happen to have one (for buffering) and using a jig was mentioned. I think I would prefer to learn doing it by hand.

Thank you all very much for the informative posts. I will try turning the wood and going with the grain but I am almost certain I was going with the grain and not against it, but I can't be sure since it might mean something different to what I think it means.


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## Corneel (25 Apr 2014)

Do you have the bevel down? And the capiron set back from the edge so you don't accidentally plane with the capiron?


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## Dino (25 Apr 2014)

Yes, I think so, the planes are assembled correctly. Somehow I misread capiron as capricorn and was very very confused for a moment.


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## woodbrains (25 Apr 2014)

Hello,

If you have a grindstone, with some grinding wheels, you might as well use it. It is not for getting the final edge that you actually plane with, but for removing previous honing when it leaves a bevel that is too wide to conveniently and quickly re hone. If you grind a 25 degree bevel, almost right to the edge, this will leave a little line of untouched metal that can be quickly brought to sharp on the oilstone. Repeat these honings as and when needed, until it seems you are taking too long to do it on the stone, then go back to the grinder to start the process again. Generally you might get 6-8 honings before regrinding, so regrinding will not be that often, really. This is a fairly classic way to do it, and most people here do it this way or a close variation thereof.

Mike.


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## Cheshirechappie (25 Apr 2014)

Dino, you may find investing a few pounds in a good book such as 'The Essential Woodworker' by Robert Wearing to be worthwhile. He's very good on the basics of setting up and using planes, and the techniques to square up wood with them. He then goes on to introduce basic cabinetmaking techniques such as mortice and tenon frames (such as stools and small tables) and carcase work, and covers lots of useful bits and pieces like how to fit hinges. He writes in a very clear and concise style, with many simple but clear diagrams. You can obtain the book here - http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalo ... Press.html - you may have to scroll down the page a bit to find it.

PS - Mike (Woodbrains) in the post above outlines the sharpening method that I use (pretty much). It's quick and effective when you get used to it, but if you feel a different technique would suit you better that's fine. You'll have gathered by now that sharpening can be a rather contentious issue; there are one or two peope who rather take the approach that their method is best, and you're an silly person if you don't follow them. Read about the subject a bit, see what methods are out there (Youtube has many videos of various methods), then make your own mind up! Whatever method you choose will need a bit of practice to become comfortable and familiar; stick with it for a bit and you'll get there!


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## Dino (25 Apr 2014)

I've youtubed a lot of techniques before I even attempted it. I'm planning on getting a few books on woodturning / carving so this can be added to the list. Thanks very much.


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## swb58 (25 Apr 2014)

I'm a big believer in starting off with the basics and with the simplest tools required. I used to think I needed a machine for everything but I've since changed my mind. 
There's nothing like doing a job in what might be described as an old fashioned way, it gives you a much better understanding of what you're doing.

Just a thought about the tools that you have bought . . . can you get them to someone who has had experience in this field and can tell you what you can reasonably expect from them. There is a massive difference between grades of chisel for example, some you can sharpen quickly, some won't achieve a decent edge, ever.


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## Corneel (25 Apr 2014)

This is a good website about sharpening. The writer uses oilstones, but it works just as well with waterstones or sandpaper. I use more or less the same technique.
http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html

Like the others say, don't delve too much into the sharpening theory. Practice is much more important.


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2014)

woodbrains":kpg40mqs said:


> Hello,
> 
> If you have a grindstone, with some grinding wheels, you might as well use it. It is not for getting the final edge that you actually plane with, but for removing previous honing when it leaves a bevel that is too wide to conveniently and quickly re hone. If you grind a 25 degree bevel, almost right to the edge, this will leave a little line of untouched metal that can be quickly brought to sharp on the oilstone. Repeat these honings as and when needed, until it seems you are taking too long to do it on the stone, then go back to the grinder to start the process again. Generally you might get 6-8 honings before regrinding, so regrinding will not be that often, really. This is a fairly classic way to do it, and most people here do it this way or a close variation thereof.
> 
> Mike.


Not classic at all, just lazy.
I was taught that the (small) bench grindstone was the kiss of death and to be avoided. Big water dipped ones OK but small strictly not. 
Some old tools turn up looking like they've been nibbled by rats - that's the small bench grindstone effect, plus the softening due to overheating.
Also they remove metal too fast from thin blades and shorten their life dramatically. Thin blades are really easy freehand, why bother with any other method?


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## Dino (25 Apr 2014)

I think I'll work on getting to do it by hand. A user said in another thread that I'd need a way to sharpen my gouges and chisels for woodturning, would I not be able to do these by hand as wel or do they require a machine too?


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2014)

Different game altogether. Personally I'd use a sanding disc on the outboard end of the headstock or a belt sander.


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## Random Orbital Bob (25 Apr 2014)

Dino":2vwfmzan said:


> I think I'll work on getting to do it by hand. A user said in another thread that I'd need a way to sharpen my gouges and chisels for woodturning, would I not be able to do these by hand as wel or do they require a machine too?



Bench tools are typically made from carbon steel (relatively soft) and can be hand sharpened. Turning tools are typically High Speed Steel (nearly as hard as tungsten Carbide) plus they're a plethora of different and complex shapes (deep fluted bowl gouges) with a range of different grind options depending on preference so its just not practical to do them by hand. All turners have at least a dry grinder, some use wet grinders, some use linishers (sanding belt based). Many use jigs to help keep a consistent facet on the bevel.

Because of the forces exerted on the edge of a tool being constantly smacked by wood spinning at fast speeds, the sharpness goes fairly quickly. Hence the need for a sharpening setup is critical to successful turning. It's every bit as important as the lathe and tools in fact as either are useless without it. Most sharpening stations are literally next to the lathe so you can turn through 90 degrees, give the chisel a tickle, get back on the lathe.


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## Dino (25 Apr 2014)

Makes sense. I assume I'd be able to use the bench grinder as part of that set up?


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## RobinBHM (25 Apr 2014)

Its all about the bevels, maybe you need a single bevel with double or multi bevel perhaps with a micro bevel or two.

and then there's the burr to consider..........


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## Dino (25 Apr 2014)

haha! This is going to be fun.


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## Rhossydd (25 Apr 2014)

Dino":1fcqewv5 said:


> I assume I'd be able to use the bench grinder as part of that set up?


Yes, a standard bench grinder is fine for turning tools, and is pretty much what most turners use (especially those with limited budgets).
It's simple to make a jig that always presents the tool to the grinder wheel at the same angle every time to make repeatable sharpening easy and leave one less thing to worry about when you're starting out.


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## Yorkshire Sam (26 Apr 2014)

Dino":ptlopd2e said:


> I've recently bought a used spokeshave and hand plane, the first I've ever used, as well as some used chisels.
> 
> I'm looking for some sharpening tips as well as some general usage tips as when I cut with them they are not taking the wood off "cleanly" - the shavings are tearing off rather than being shaven off.
> 
> ...




If it helps any .. I am too a recent beginner and took advice from this forum too. I tried several methods without going overboard on gadgets etc. I read in one of the posts something that struck a cord ... something like 'craftsmen have been using a stone in a box for decades ...' and stuck with that and practiced it, sometimes got quite frustrated, thought Id never get the hang of this ... but I did and now I can sharpen chisels, plane blades and spokeshaves quite easily and wondered what was all the fuss about. I am no craftsman, artisan or trained wood worker but I get that satisfied feeling when I can plane or pare a piece of wood and also feel a little smug when I think I now know when a chisel needs sharpening when before I would have thought it would have done. Keep with it ... it comes.


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2014)

If you can put a turning tool to a piece of wood and produce a controlled precise shape freehand you can put that same tool to your grinding medium and do the same to the tool. One is almost a mirror of the other. It's very strange that people have convinced themselves (wrongly) that one is possible and the other is not. Jig mania spreading like a virus.
I'd say the sharpening is much easier than the turning. You don't need jigs.


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## Rhossydd (26 Apr 2014)

> If you can put a turning tool to a piece of wood and produce a controlled precise shape freehand you can put that same tool to your grinding medium and do the same to the tool.


Which is fine if you _can_ do that, but when starting out those skills are unlikely to be in place. Why make beginners lives harder by suggesting they have to learn two skills ? Especially if not getting sharpening correct makes the second task of turning wood much harder.

'Jigs' don't have to expensive or complex, they just have to do the job. My turning sharpening jigs are made of scrap wood and cost nothing and building them took very little time indeed. For that tiny bit of effort I can reliably sharpen gouges and scrapers easily, reliably and fast. That in turn means I work with sharper tools that give better results more easily, which helped me learn the craft quicker.




I _can_ sharpen by hand now, but it's just easier to use the jigs for the tools that fit them.
I don't feel any need to make life harder for myself and wouldn't suggest anything that makes lifer more difficult to novices either.


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## Spindle (26 Apr 2014)

Jacob":adrjr2du said:


> If you can put a turning tool to a piece of wood and produce a controlled precise shape freehand you can put that same tool to your grinding medium and do the same to the tool. One is almost a mirror of the other.



Hi

I disagree - when a tool is used in turning it's effect is immediately apparent and can be adjusted accordingly unlike applying a turning tool to a grinding wheel where the effect is hidden until the tool is turned over to allow observation of the bevel.

I'd advise anyone starting out in woodturning to use some form of jig to allow repeatable, single bevel grinds to be produced and thus remove one of the variables encountered when learning to turn.

Regards Mick


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2014)

Spindle":2g1dant6 said:


> Jacob":2g1dant6 said:
> 
> 
> > If you can put a turning tool to a piece of wood and produce a controlled precise shape freehand you can put that same tool to your grinding medium and do the same to the tool. One is almost a mirror of the other.
> ...


The same applies if you use a jig.
You soon get the hang of it after a few goes. You can see the edge itself and it doesn't take much brain power to guess what's happening out of sight


> I'd advise anyone starting out in woodturning to use some form of jig to allow repeatable, single bevel grinds to be produced and thus remove one of the variables encountered when learning to turn.
> 
> Regards Mick


But the jigs themselves are so variable and involve a learning curve and time spent making them.
Why bother? Nobody used them in the past. Jigs don't feature in old turning books. It's easier without.
An absolute beginner might need some reference points I suppose, a few books, photos of your tool edges before you start hacking at them etc


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## Random Orbital Bob (26 Apr 2014)

Jacob......has the word "progress" ever permeated that oh so traditional mind of yours?

They didn't used to use motor cars either.....do you own one?


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## Random Orbital Bob (26 Apr 2014)

Anyway....to the OP....as I said in the 2nd post of this thread....sharpening threads have a tendency to polarise the community into those for or against the technology deployed in sharpening.


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2014)

A copy lathe is "progress" too. Why struggle without?
I don't think it is progress to deskill these crafts. Quite the opposite - it's craft in decline.


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## Spindle (26 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":3o2wb4so said:


> Jacob......has the word "progress" ever permeated that oh so traditional mind of yours?



Hush - I'm pretty sure I'm correct in the fact that Jacob, in the past, has admitted to owning and liking a Sorby Pro Edge - Still I suppose he could have removed the tool rest from that and any grinders he has - after all that tool rest is a jig isn't it :roll: :roll: 

Regards Mick


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2014)

Spindle":2c8hjcwg said:


> ...- after all that tool rest is a jig isn't it :roll: :roll:
> 
> Regards Mick


No it isn't - it's a tool rest. It's in the name - look closely, there are two words; TOOL and REST.


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## Random Orbital Bob (26 Apr 2014)

Just to balance out the argument with sensible reasons why there is a genuine place for technology, especially in turning. In the early days of hand sharpening the harder, more exotic alloys of steel weren't readily available. Carbon steel tools are soft enough to be hand sharpened, whereas HSS is a lot tougher to remove steel from.

The availability of cheap electronics and tooling has a huge part to play in the access of what was once confined to the industrial only setting.

The complex geometries of for example deep fluted bowl gouges are plain and simple NOT easy to do freehand, and that technique is NOT the same as presenting the tool to turning wood because in oder to sharpen the bevel evenly you need to swing the tool in a near 180 deg arc against the grinder. That is simply not an easy skill for a novice to learn any more then skew use is "easy".

There is a perfectly reasonable and rightful place for jig technology in modern wood working and to continually refute it as though its the devil at work or just a waste of money is futile and frankly rather ignorant. Why not just accept (gracefully) that a CHOICE exists and folks are free to choose one way or another and there isn't any need to continue banging on about one particular method being superior to another, what a waste of bloody oxygen!


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## Random Orbital Bob (26 Apr 2014)

Jacob":jyr5qmwy said:


> A copy lathe is "progress" too. Why struggle without?
> I don't think it is progress to deskill these crafts. Quite the opposite - it's craft in decline.




Do you think that the skill of the craft of turning is more or less widely practised now in 2014 than it was in say 1970?


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## Rhossydd (26 Apr 2014)

Jacob":mw6comff said:


> But the jigs themselves are so variable and involve a learning curve and time spent making them.


The only variability in the one I pictured above is the wear on the wood and wheel. The ear on the wooden part is neglibible and the change the wheel diameter is so slow you won't notice it until you've done a huge amount of tool sharpening.
Learning curve ? Place tool on jig > push gently onto rotating grinding wheel > rotate tool > remove, how hard was that ?
Time spent making it ? about an hour. How long did you have to work to pay for your Sorby Pro edge ? 10 hours at £25/hr ?


> Jigs don't feature in old turning books.


Nor did electric motors or high speed steel tools, but most people use them now. It's called progress.

What's more of a puzzle is why you seem to make such an effort to make beginner's journeys into woodwork so much more difficult than it needs to be.


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## Spindle (26 Apr 2014)

Jacob":2mdi2fe6 said:


> No it isn't - it's a tool rest. It's in the name - look closely, there are two words; TOOL and REST.



Ahh I see:

Tool rest





Jig





:roll: :lol: :lol: 

Mick


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## Random Orbital Bob (26 Apr 2014)

Jacob":3ptowub0 said:


> Spindle":3ptowub0 said:
> 
> 
> > ...- after all that tool rest is a jig isn't it :roll: :roll:
> ...



Wrong.

The Sorby pro-edge tool rest is fixed at repeatable known angles from the belt which range from about 15 deg for a skew to 80 deg for a scraper. That's the whole point of the dam thing! Those repeatable angles (in combination with other bits of technology that help the tool stay straight and/or rotate evenly) allow the user to consistently repeat the angle at which they grind the bevel of their chosen edge. To deny that the pro-edge rest isn't a jig is laughable


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## caroleb (26 Apr 2014)

> The 64,000 dollar question is of course "What's right for you"?


 =D> 



> The point of sticking with what you have is that simple freehand sharpening is a very valuable basic skill, which every beginner should get to grips with from the start.


also =D> 



> a standard bench grinder is fine for turning tools, and is pretty much what most turners use


 another =D> 



> don't delve too much into the sharpening theory. Practice is much more important.


 and =D> 

but ..


> haha! This is going to be fun.


 - to start with, yes, but give it a while...........

Anyway, the skill here is to be able to sift through all the information you have been given and glean the most you can from it. Doubtless the answers are all here, but there are some politics to be avoided too. There is no 'right' way. Only your way. You will find it, the truth is you cannot do without it. I am not even sure it is teachable (is that a word?) but found through experience. Dive in and enjoy it- surely that's the important thing? 

Hope this helps. I have no wish to offend anyone. But a tool-rest (see what I did there?) is a bit like a jig, isn't it? :evil: 

Caz


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## KevM (26 Apr 2014)

Dino":3bcyjzna said:


> I've recently bought a used spokeshave and hand plane, the first I've ever used, as well as some used chisels.
> 
> I'm looking for some sharpening tips as well as some general usage tips as when I cut with them they are not taking the wood off "cleanly" - the shavings are tearing off rather than being shaven off.
> 
> ...



Regardless of sharpening style a few things have helped me.
- A marker pen to mark the edge to be sharpened
- A good light to work in
- A x10 pocket lens to inspect the sharpened edge and see what's been removed

The marker pen and pocket lens quickly become redundant, but I found they helped me to understand what I was actually doing in my sharpening process. I paid good money for that steel - the less I have to remove the better.
What's sharp enough rather depends on what you're doing; for carving tools an easy slice across end grain that leaves a burnished finish is a pretty good indication that I should stop faffing with sharpening and get back to the job in hand.


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2014)

Call a tool rest a jig if you like but I think of these sorts of things as jigs
http://www.axminster.co.uk/storme-woodt ... ing-system
http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/


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## Spindle (26 Apr 2014)

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Ninth one down on the Tormek link


:wink:


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2014)

Spindle":3kh7kde6 said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Ninth one down on the Tormek link
> 
> ...


£70. Who needs it? A tool maker perhaps, but a turner would do it quicker and easier freehand on a tool rest, or hand as tool rest.


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## Spindle (26 Apr 2014)

Hi

Did you misunderstand on purpose :wink: 

This is item nine on the Tormek link

http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/svd110/index.php

The item you linked is actually the jig / tool rest I, (and I expect other turners), use the most - why ever would I bother to learn to free hand fingernail profiles when I have a perfectly good system that ensures efficiency and repeatability.

Regards Mick


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## Paul Chapman (26 Apr 2014)

Jacob":3lv7wtjt said:


> Who needs it?



Anyone who wants speed, accuracy and repeatability. I reckon the Tormek and its jigs are great. Can't understand why you're such a Luddite when it comes to grinding and honing, Jacob.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Random Orbital Bob (26 Apr 2014)

Actually Jacob, I wasn't being tongue in cheek when I asked you to answer the question: Do you believe the skill of wood turning has got less or more since 1970? You see, your continual battle cry is that by moving away from pure freehand approaches the risk is that the craft is "de-skilled".

If you were to plot lathe sales from 1930 to 1970 versus lathe sales from 1970 to date...I bet they'd tell an interesting story about the proliferation of the skill of turning as a global phenomena. Whilst not having that data I would bet my right arm that the skill of wood turning has undergone exponential growth since 1970 and further, that that growth is directly matched to the growth and price composition of lathe availability. In other words as the technology through mass production, computerisation and cheap far eastern labour has brought the tools within the grasp of household budgets, the "craft" has exploded.

Now I know what you'll say next: Just because all those new folks are doing it doesn't mean they're any good, doesn't mean they have any "skill".

Well, I would argue the standard of wood turning skill out there is pretty dam good. I also don't believe sharpening skill has any relation whatsoever with wood turning skill. Practice is the mother of skill and that means on the lathe. So any procedure that gets the turner in front of the lathe for as long as possible is HELPING the skill of the craft and not the opposite. Sharp tools are what aid the skill of the craft, not sharpening skill. Anything which delivers sharp tools, preferably as fast as possible is the optimum driver for upskilling the craft of wood turning.

Anyway, I promised myself I wouldn't bite....and what goes and bloody well happens!!!


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## Woodmonkey (26 Apr 2014)

I agree Bob, the turning is the craft, the sharpening is a by-product of the craft, it doesn't matter a jot how you get your chisels sharp as long as they are sharp. I would like to see anyone sharpen an HSS deep fluted bowl gouge without some sort of jig (call it a tool rest if you like it's still a jig)


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## charvercarver (26 Apr 2014)

Just to add, if you're going into carving as well as turning I highly reccomend learning to free hand sharpen. Apparently you can get jigs for the tormek, but considering how often you need to touch up your gouges on a strop anyway I don't think it would prove to be much of a convenience.


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## Dino (26 Apr 2014)

I've already done a bit of hand carving, sharpening knives I am fine with it's just getting the angle right on the chisels and planes that I seem to have a problem with but that's very new to me in any case. From the advice here it just seems that I need more practise which I would agree with. A lot of good information here in any case.


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## Doug B (26 Apr 2014)

Spindle":q3vtz5wi said:


> Jig



No that's definitely a tool rest not a jig, I should know, it was mine :shock: so where did the photo come from ?


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## Spindle (27 Apr 2014)

Doug B":wjt21z3f said:


> so where did the photo come from ?



Hi

Google images - you must have uploaded it at some point.

Served the point well though as responses now identify the two examples as both jigs and toolrests. To me they're both jigs but it's really only down to semantics :wink: 

Regards Mick


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2014)

Spindle":gjif12da said:


> Doug B":gjif12da said:
> 
> 
> > so where did the photo come from ?
> ...


A tool rest is a tool rest. Doug's and that tormek thing are both tool rests. A jig _holds_ things. Fuzzy area in between but it's not semantics. e.g. That wolverine thing is an in-betweeny but I'd call it a jig myself.


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## Random Orbital Bob (27 Apr 2014)

And Jacob, what about the point of "de-skilling" the craft?


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":1hq4iyvq said:


> And Jacob, what about the point of "de-skilling" the craft?


As a trade craft it's virtually disappeared. Hardly anything is turned commercially as in the old days when it was massive. It still flourishes on the fringe of arts n crafts (hollow forms/urns :lol: ) and amateur hobby woodwork (nothing wrong with amateur woodwork this isn't a criticism).
And of course to suit the amateur market the gadget salesmen have got in there in a big way. A lot of sales depend on persuading people that sharpening is difficult - "de-skilling" in a word. It's kind of self fulfilling - many of the gadgets promise much but do actually make sharpening more difficult, not to mention more expensive.


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## Random Orbital Bob (27 Apr 2014)

Jacob":bgq74awd said:


> Random Orbital Bob":bgq74awd said:
> 
> 
> > And Jacob, what about the point of "de-skilling" the craft?
> ...



I see your point, you're documenting the shift away from the "trade" of turning to a generally non professional mode. I don't dis-agree with that, its clearly happened and has been mirrored in many other industries, the text book classic being typography. Desk top publishing completely decimated the professional typesetter in about 10 years flat. And I guess that kind of "progress" can be seen as rather sad because it undermines the value of a particular job type across an entire industry. For the people involved, that's a pretty hard position to find yourself in, especially if you're getting on a bit.

But I'm not sure that's true in the case of turning, but I may be wrong. The professional end of turning was to a large degree supplying the building and furniture industry with spindles for stair's, chairs, cricket stumps, kitchen items etc. I guess there were bowls too and other face grained work but the work was to some extent, large batches of repeat items which made up a component of a bigger system? Of course there would still be commissions for incredible work from large budgets, royalty etc but that still holds true today. Wouldn't the bulk of production have been fairly narrow in design scope? Beads, coves, pommels etc. Sure they take skill to do, in particular they take skill to repeat accurately by hand but the scope is narrow.

With the birth of cheap tooling and access, the arts and crafts switch has exploded in terms of the scope of design. No longer restricted by a clients boring brief for 8000 stair spindles and the odd newel post, incredible forms have started appearing: Huge natural edge forms, hollow vessels almost as big as the turner, bowls out of the sides of branch crotches, multi centre pieces, segmented pieces, a huge variety in colour, shape and texture. Surely it makes sense to suppose that the skill necessary to produce this veritable cornucopia of variety has evolved beyond the mastering of the humble table leg?

So I would argue the industry has upskilled BECAUSE of the arts and crafts growth and in spite of the demise of the trade (regrettable though I agree that is for the people concerned).

And by the way...this has nothing to do with sharpening jigs


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## Lons (27 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":2vyxodak said:


> Actually Jacob, I wasn't being tongue in cheek when I asked you to answer the question: Do you believe the skill of wood turning has got less or more since 1970? You see, your continual battle cry is that by moving away from pure freehand approaches the risk is that the craft is "de-skilled".
> 
> If you were to plot lathe sales from 1930 to 1970 versus lathe sales from 1970 to date...I bet they'd tell an interesting story about the proliferation of the skill of turning as a global phenomena. Whilst not having that data I would bet my right arm that the skill of wood turning has undergone exponential growth since 1970 and further, that that growth is directly matched to the growth and price composition of lathe availability. In other words as the technology through mass production, computerisation and cheap far eastern labour has brought the tools within the grasp of household budgets, the "craft" has exploded.
> 
> ...


Very well put Bob =D> =D> 

Doesn't make any difference as you won't get a sensible unbiased answer from the "master sharpener" who of course has personally tested every jig and gadget that he so vehemently condems. Stick someone in a dark hole for long enough and they'll eventually lose their vision. 

I've turned most of my life since the age of 13 but just come back to it after a 15 year gap, I'm also a woodcarver and general woodworker. I learned to sharpen with oilstones at school, and of course it's a skill but only a means to an end. 
Every woodworker has to be able to keep his tools sharp and how he does that is purely his decision based on how much he is prepared to spend in both money and time.
Personally, I don't enjoy sharpening, consider it as "down time" and use the fastest and most effective method at my disposal dependant on the tool and the work to hand as well as of course my own ability. That can be Tormek, bench grinder, oil / water diamond stone or strop. If that labels ma a Philistine then so what, I don't give a monkeys :wink: God forgive me but I even use throway handsaws, metal rather than wooden planes and a lathe with a motor :roll: 

Not everyone has the will or skill to sharpen a chisel freehand in 5 seconds like it seems Jacob can. Not everyone wants to or can be bothered to spend the time trying either and that includes me. If it works for you Jacob that's great but don't unilaterally decry orther folks methods just because you don't agree.

Bob


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## Random Orbital Bob (27 Apr 2014)

Lons":2gbgvg9w said:


> Very well put Bob =D> =D>
> 
> Doesn't make any difference as you won't get a sensible unbiased answer from the "master sharpener" who of course has personally tested every jig and gadget that he so vehemently condems. Stick someone in a dark hole for long enough and they'll eventually lose their vision.
> 
> Bob



I've come to learn that of late! But in this case I wanted (for some reason I cant fathom) to logically and reasonably refute the contention that sharpening by hand has anything whatever to do with the skill of wood turning. The skill of wood turning is served by sharp tools, not by their delivery vehicle.

Out of curiosity Jacob, are you a turner?


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":1geerj5q said:


> .... The skill of wood turning is served by sharp tools, not by their delivery vehicle.


I don't agree. I think they are part and parcel of the same job and you want to be able to do it quickly and easily when you are in the middle of a job. Much like sharpening a pencil when you are drawing.


> Out of curiosity Jacob, are you a turner?


A bit. A few bowls and stuff. What I've done most is knobs and shaker type pegs. It took some time but I can do a run of either all coming out the same instead of scrabbling for a matching set from a mixture of odd sizes, how it was at the start.


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## Random Orbital Bob (27 Apr 2014)

I think you're right that they're part of the same job and I agree that when you're at the lathe the last thing you want is the downtime associated with sharpening. And I think your pencil analogy is spot on ie you just want it sharp as fast as heck so you can get on with the fun bit ie the turning. I think the nub of this debate is the time it takes to get it done to a decent enough standard. For me, the technology genuinely assists me in that respect and facilitates my fast return to the lathe. I don't doubt that using freehand methods you can achieve a bevel to the standard you feel happy with, but that takes time to learn and perfect. My personal choice (having started out with oil stones many years ago) is to use technology to speed up my downtime. But its a choice. I respect your choice to do it the traditional way, I think you might get slightly less flack if you respected other choices. But it is, after all, a free country and truth be told, I like a range of points of view and think the world would be a poorer place if everyone fell in line with the same perspective


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## Dino (27 Apr 2014)

Out of interest are there any cheap jigs for an angle grinder? I've spotted on one axminster which cost about £75 and while I appreciate theirs is probably very functional I'd much rather make a cheaper one out of wood.

And what grit stone would I use on an angle grinder to sharpen turning tools? I only have very coarse grit on the one I own.


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## Spindle (27 Apr 2014)

Hi

Search Google images for ideas:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=grind ... s&tbm=isch

Easy enough to make out of wood or MDF

80 or 100 grit white, ruby or blue wheel 

Regards Mick


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## Woodmonkey (27 Apr 2014)

Dino these are similar to what you saw today in my workshop

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ad ... ening-rest
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-aw ... ne-grinder


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## Dino (27 Apr 2014)

That's the one I was looking for hah. I've got a decent grinder that I've only used for sharpening axes really. It's more the stone I was looking for.


Thanks!


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## Rhossydd (27 Apr 2014)

Dino":1g0wmi95 said:


> It's more the stone I was looking for.


I've found the O'Donnell 80 grit ruby wheel excellent for sharpening turning tools. http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Grindin ... heels.html not too expensive either. As seen in the picture posted earlier with the home made jig.
I've got the Axminster aluminium rest referenced by woodmonkey, but it's not the greatest bit of kit they sell, more of an adjustable tool rest, rather than a jig as such.


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## Lons (27 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":2nqe7g7w said:


> .... The skill of wood turning is served by sharp tools, not by their delivery vehicle.





> ="Jacob"wrote............I don't agree. I think they are part and parcel of the same job and you want to be able to do it quickly and easily when you are in the middle of a job. Much like sharpening a pencil when you are drawing.


Jacob, that's complete and utter rubbish! 

A skilled turner can and would if necessary produce acceptable results with a sub standard tool just as would an artist with a blunt pencil. Not that they would wish to and of course ayone using a tool or a pencil needs it to be sharp but that's got absolutely nothing to do with skill. I repeat even though it falls on deaf ears, sharpening is merely a means to an end!

A person has skills - an inanimate object certainly does not :lol: I have yet to witness, (robotic or cnc machines excepted) a pencil or chisel that can produce anything without a human hand to guide it.

Bob

ps
A sharp skew helped me produce this, or did it make the pen on my behalf :wink:


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## Mr T (27 Apr 2014)

Just back from holiday and seen this thread. Dino, if you could get up to my workshop in Ilkley I can give you some free hands on help with sharpening and use. PM me if you are interested.

Chris


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## Lons (27 Apr 2014)

Mr T":3c8sv2ti said:


> Just back from holiday and seen this thread. Dino, if you could get up to my workshop in Ilkley I can give you some free hands on help with sharpening and use. PM me if you are interested.
> 
> Chris



Now that's proper help and advice =D> =D> =D>


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## Dino (28 Apr 2014)

Mr T":2h5mu7ze said:


> Just back from holiday and seen this thread. Dino, if you could get up to my workshop in Ilkley I can give you some free hands on help with sharpening and use. PM me if you are interested.
> 
> Chris



Thanks Chris, PM sent. Being told what I'm doing wrong would be fantastic help.


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2014)

Lons":4ve4pcxc said:


> Random Orbital Bob":4ve4pcxc said:
> 
> 
> > .... The skill of wood turning is served by sharp tools, not by their delivery vehicle.
> ...


Nice pen. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.


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## Random Orbital Bob (28 Apr 2014)

I must say I was struggling with the point a bit too. If I read between the lines as well as the text I think he's saying 2 things:

Firstly, lets bash Jacob (and I have to be honest you bring that on yourself Jacob, because you always lead with the chin!!) Secondly, that the sharpness of the tool is unrelated to the turning skill development. 

Parhaps Lons will be along later to clarify. I must say whilst I applaud the Jacob bashing , I'm not sure I agree with the notion that a master turner can do wonders with a blunt tool. Amazing turning results and very sharp tools are hand in glove. I still stand by my original point which is that it doesn't matter how sharpening gets done, the method is unimportant, the resultant sharpness is what counts and the speed with which its delivered (to get back on the lathe). Further, that the method adopted is a matter of personal choice and thank goodness we have the good fortune to live in an age when choices abound almost endlessly (even if there are one or two snake oil salesmen trying to get us to make them


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":26o7ch4z said:


> ..... Amazing turning results and very sharp tools are hand in glove. I still stand by my original point which is that it doesn't matter how sharpening gets done, the method is unimportant, the resultant sharpness is what counts and the speed with which its delivered (to get back on the lathe).


You might as well argue that it doesn't matter how the turning is done, is only the end product which counts and a copy lathe is the way


> Further, that the method adopted is a matter of personal choice and thank goodness we have the good fortune to live in an age when choices abound almost endlessly (even if there are one or two snake oil salesmen trying to get us to make them


The reason I keep chipping in is that so often when a beginner asks a question he is presented with modern sharpening as though there is no sensible option and that freehand is almost impossible. It's not true, it's dead easy and also very useful as a standby if nothing else. 
Personally I think it's more than a standby and is part of the craft skill itself, not a separate operation.

PS Just an afterthought - the wolverine jig holds a chisel at a fixed angle - why can't the user hold it at that angle unaided? He can manage it perfectly well when he's doing the actual turning.


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## Random Orbital Bob (28 Apr 2014)

I take your point Jacob, really I do. You're promoting the value of the fundamentals, the basic skills that if learned first, early on, provide the foundation for the craft. In a way you're selling the notion of the apprenticeship. That there is a correct order of things to learn and if you do them in that sequence, it will inform and enable the skill as it develops and I entirely agree with that "bottom up" approach.

I think where we differ is where the start point should be? I view the modern sharpening methods (characterised by things like the Tormek and Sorby Pro-edge incidentally) as short cuts along that learning curve. I hate to use a car analogy but here goes: They are in some respects similar. You could have the student walk the 3 miles to the destination because walking is a fundamental skill and therefore should be valued and taught. Or you could accept that cars are here, use them and get to the destination faster. You will have had to shell out some money to do that, but you can get on to the stuff that happens at the destination very quickly.

I think that in turning, a really useful start point is standing at the lathe with a 3/4" roughing gouge in your hand and a piece of yew spinning very fast in front of you. 

The technology just boosts you further down the track that's all. In the case of complex geometries like bowl gouges, doing it by hand may actually impede turning progress because the frustration factor would be a barrier.

I do respect your position though. Perhaps with a little less dogma


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## MMUK (28 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":2d6k9wv1 said:


> I think that in turning, a really useful start point is standing at the lathe with a 3/4" roughing gouge in your hand and a piece of yew spinning very fast in front of you.




:shock: 

You forgot to mention that the person should be wearing goggles, ear defenders and gloves!


:wink:


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## Random Orbital Bob (28 Apr 2014)

of course......and before you use any power tools, always read the manufacturers.......there is no more important safety aspect than these, safety glasses!


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## MMUK (28 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":3b9ubknp said:


> of course......and before you use any power tools, always read the manufacturers.......there is no more important safety aspect than these, safety glasses!




And if the EU has it's way, you'll need a license before you can buy a power tool. :roll:


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## Woodmonkey (28 Apr 2014)

> You might as well argue that it doesn't matter how the turning is done, is only the end product which counts and a copy lathe is the way



No, a copy lathe is fine for knocking out table legs but would not be able to replicate most of the highly skilled work such as that which is showcased on this site.


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## Lons (28 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":g7m19r0o said:


> I must say I was struggling with the point a bit too. If I read between the lines as well as the text I think he's saying 2 things:
> 
> Firstly, lets bash Jacob (and I have to be honest you bring that on yourself Jacob, because you always lead with the chin!!) Secondly, that the sharpness of the tool is unrelated to the turning skill development.
> 
> Parhaps Lons will be along later to clarify. I must say whilst I applaud the Jacob bashing , I'm not sure I agree with the notion that a master turner can do wonders with a blunt tool. Amazing turning results and very sharp tools are hand in glove. I still stand by my original point which is that it doesn't matter how sharpening gets done, the method is unimportant, the resultant sharpness is what counts and the speed with which its delivered (to get back on the lathe). Further, that the method adopted is a matter of personal choice and thank goodness we have the good fortune to live in an age when choices abound almost endlessly (even if there are one or two snake oil salesmen trying to get us to make them



Just logged back in and read my post and I confess I'm struggling as well with the content. (My excuse is that I'd had a few beers before I wrote it :wink: )

Anyway, you've pretty much got it Bob. 

The skill of a turner, woodworker, and virtually any other trade you care to mention is developed within the person, not the tools he or she is using. There are of course many tasks which can't be achieved without specific tools and a great many more which are made much easier by a jig or a tool. My point was that these tools are purely a means to an end, nothing else and whilst sharpening skills are also developed it is a seperate skill. 
In the case of a turning tool, of course it need to be sharp but I stand by my comment as I have witnessed remarkable results from an old guy using bench chisels which I definately did not consider sharp enough for my use. Granted, he used more abrasive paper than I would but the finished results were excellent.
I would also add that I use my turning tools straight off the grinder (no jigs) and they are more than sharp enough for turning but my carving chisels are honed to a mirror finish - horses for courses. 
As another example, I am quite capable of planing a piece of softwood if out on site with a blade that's past its best. It's bloody hard work and I don't want to but it can be done if necessary.

My issue with Jacob is purely his tunnel vision attitude as he is undoubtedly a skilled and knowledgeable woodworker but there are many others on this forum who are at least as skillful just a lot less vociferous.

I don't disagree with the points about hand sharpening as I was taught the same methods but they aren't the be all and end all. My memories of apprentices is that once they learned how to sharpen, they were usually given that task whilst the qualified guys got on with the creative stuff. 

If Jacob wants to live in the past then there's nothing at all wrong with that and everyone is entitled to an opinion but that's exactly what it is, nothing more! By posting opinions as fact he could deter beginners from progressing where the use of modern "gadgets" might help them develop. Personally I prefer progress and happily use anything and everything which enhances my enjoyment of my work and hobbies. That's my perogative and when newbies ask for advice, it should be given as such not rammed down their throats as the only way to go.

Bob


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## Random Orbital Bob (28 Apr 2014)

do you think Jacob should be licensed


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## Lons (29 Apr 2014)

Random Orbital Bob":2rcsh8n6 said:


> do you think Jacob should licensed



Nope but definitely should come in a plain wrapper with a health warning :wink: :lol:


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## iNewbie (29 Apr 2014)

Lons":3jepzctv said:


> Random Orbital Bob":3jepzctv said:
> 
> 
> > My issue with Jacob is purely his tunnel vision attitude as he is undoubtedly a skilled and knowledgeable woodworker but there are many others on this forum who are at least as skillful just a lot less vociferous.
> ...



Its too early for me to be reading some _unbiased_ common sense. :wink: =D>


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## Jacob (3 May 2014)

Woodmonkey":3jlvlj6p said:


> > You might as well argue that it doesn't matter how the turning is done, is only the end product which counts and a copy lathe is the way
> 
> 
> 
> No, a copy lathe is fine for knocking out table legs but would not be able to replicate most of the highly skilled work such as that which is showcased on this site.


You missed the point but you are wrong anyway - CNC can do intricate things quite beyond hands-on control.


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## Woodmonkey (3 May 2014)

Firstly, you said copy lathe, not CNC. Those are two different things.
Secondly, no, a CNC cannot replicate anything a turner could do. Just for example, I can't see how a cnc could make this:


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## Jacob (3 May 2014)

Lons":20fhmruk said:


> ....
> 
> If Jacob wants to live in the past then there's nothing at all wrong with that and everyone is entitled to an opinion but that's exactly what it is, nothing more! By posting opinions as fact he could deter beginners from progressing where the use of modern "gadgets" might help them develop. Personally I prefer progress and happily use anything and everything which enhances my enjoyment of my work and hobbies. ...
> 
> Bob


Yes I am a bit slow on the progress front. I make tea in a tea pot I still haven't got around to buying a Goblin Teasmade. :roll: 






And I must get some balance wheels for my bike, they are such an obviously valuable thing to have. These look good, anybody here use them?:


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## Phil Pascoe (3 May 2014)

:-" I had a Goblin Teasmaid once...


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## Lons (3 May 2014)

Tea bags Jacob,,, Or does that open another never ending argument? :wink: Mine's a coffee

Are youy selling your stabilisers? My grandaughter will need some in a year or three :lol: 

Bob


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## Cheshirechappie (3 May 2014)

Jacob":2t81hdit said:


> And I must get some balance wheels for my bike, they are such an obviously valuable thing to have. These look good, anybody here use them?:



Step 1 - Move stabilisers to upper slot on mounting bracket, thus leaving back wheel clear of floor.

Step 2 - Liberally smear honing compound on rear tyre. The tread will help to hold a reserve of compound.

Step 3 - Pedal furiously whilst applying tool edge to tyre (in trailing direction, obviously; don't want any punctures).

Step 4 - Wheel bike out of way using front wheel and stabiliser wheels (don't want to contaminate honing compound with workshop floor-sweepings).

All you need is this and a Sorby Pro-Edge. You could sling those nasty old oily stones.


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## Dino (10 May 2014)

I figured this deserved an update.

Was planing today, and yesterday, for the first time after Chris (Mr T on the forums) showed me how to sharpen the plane and use it.

It went incredibly well, it was very satisfying to be able to actually use the tool and not feel like an silly person anymore.

Wanted to make this reply to thank him publicly because his help was invaluable. So. Thanks Chris!


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## bugbear (10 May 2014)

Dino":2yytn0ej said:


> I figured this deserved an update.
> 
> Was planing today, and yesterday, for the first time after Chris (Mr T on the forums) showed me how to sharpen the plane and use it.
> 
> ...



one on one teaching beats all the text, photos and videos ever made.

Kudos to you both.

BugBear


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 May 2014)

+1....well done my young apprentice (said in Yoda's voice)

What a nice chap Mr T is for doing that.


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## woodbrains (10 May 2014)

Hello,

Chris Tribe is a very nice chap and an excellent craftsman. I would thoroughly recommend one of his courses, if any one fancies doing such a thing.

Mike.


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