# nasty noise



## devonwoody (31 Dec 2012)

MY tower desktop pc (w7/64 bit) is making a hunting noise which I assume is the fan.

What can you suggest I do please?

Should I shut down and wait until a professional attends to it or leave until it gives up the ghost.


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## mseries (31 Dec 2012)

Could be the case fan, PSU fan, CPU/GPU fan or maybe the hard disk. First thing to do if you don'at already have it, is create a backup of as much as you can just in case the computer becomes inoperable.

If the CPU or GPU fan is overworking it's because the component is getting too hot. This might be a symptom of a malfunciton and a warning that it's about to give up the ghost or it might be a runaway process (virus) causeing many cycles. PSU fan failure might cause the PSU to shutdown to prevent overheating and fire, might not, the PSU might overheat and cause a fire if you are not careful.


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## CHJ (31 Dec 2012)

How much dust have you collected on the CPU and power supplies heatsinks.
Dependant upon processor and software running it is quite normal for the processor fan to keep changing speed to tackle increased heat, if the processor heat sink is covered in dust this will encourage the fan to work overtime trying to reduce the heat.


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## Eric The Viking (31 Dec 2012)

[I was writing this as Chas was writing his above, obviously!]

Backup, yes definitely. Cleaning dust out of the machine will help lots though.

Put a new bag in the hoover, find its crevice tool and upholstery brush, and get a clean, reasonably small, long-bristle paintbrush.

Disconnect keyboard, mouse, screen and other connections, but leave the power cord plugged into a mains socket that is switched off at the wall. This keeps the chassis well earthed, as cleaning creates static, which in turn damages sensitive components. You need enough switched-off power cable to be able to move the box around as you clean, so an extension cable might be handy. 

Open the case (usually Pozi screws, but very occasionally T10 Torx). Lay the PC on its side so that the circuit board is at the bottom (if it's the old desktop or floor standing style of case). It's worth hoovering the solder side if you can get at it, but not making a special effort if its inaccessible. 

Start with the top and clean off all the dust you can see. Brush loose anything that's stubborn. There will probably be three fans: one on the back of the case, one built into the power supply (box on one side with a lot of thick coloured wires coming from it), and one on top of the processor (on top of the circuit board. It has a heatsink with lots of fine fins). 

The two that can cause early failure if clogged are the processor one and the power supply. Of these the processor cooling is by far the most important. Carefully and gently dislodge as much dust as you can from the processor heatsink under the fan, but don't dislodge the heatsink itself from the board. If you are confident, you might be able to remove the fan itself from the heatsink (usually self-tapping screws- this helps you to get between the heatsink fins with the paintbrush). If it looks too complex or has bolts or funny clips, don't attempt it*. You might find a cycle of brushing then hoovering, repeated, works best. 

Don't attempt to open the power supply box. It still carries high voltages when it's off (higher than mains, usually), and can be a real pig to assemble again later. Just get as much dust out of the grilles as you can easily get to with the brushes you have.

When you've cleared as much dust out as you can, it's done. If keen, you can do the main case fan with meths-soaked cotton buds to wipe the blades. This may make it quieter, but will have little effect on actual cooling performance. 

The case and power supply fans' bearings often go noisy. Often they're just bushes, but the better ones have ball-races. Maplins and others sell replacements at a reasonable price, but changing the power supply fan is non-trivial. 

If you cleaned it well, you should find the fans' speeds will now stop hunting and settle to a lower pitch, indicating they're having to work less hard to cool the machine. On some machines you can get a processor temperature readout, but the fan speed is a good indication it's clean enough. Expect it to go up in pitch if the machine is working hard - playing video off the internet, making 3D models, or lots of disk access can do it. On mine that's making 360 degree panoramic images, which needs loads of processor power.

You should find once it's clean it settles down again. In a domestic environment, especially if you have pets, it's worth doing once a year as preventative maintenance. I'm doing mine in the next few days. 

When we kept parrots, I had a shock one year - I opened the case to find everything covered in fine downy feathers and thus beautifully thermally insulated. Charlie, the hen bird, used to sit on my shoulder whilst I was working (we both enjoyed the company), but she'd preen. You have been warned! ;-)

Hope it sorts it out,

E.

*The processors run so hot there has to be an excellent thermal connection between the processor and the heatsink. This is achieved with a special sticky pad (usually), and it doesn't work well enough if it's ever disturbed. The heatsink is tightly clamped down, and will be fine if cleaned, even quite roughly, but NOT if you disturb the clamps!


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## devonwoody (31 Dec 2012)

Thanks all, yes I will take off the side and do the cleaning.

It has quitened down in the past hour, still a slight noise, but the vents have needed regular cleaning lately. (new carpets around is one problem I think.)


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## AndyT (31 Dec 2012)

It could just be the fan itself - this happened to me a while ago. I thought the hard drive was dying but in fact the problem was just that one of the plastic blades of the case fan had snapped. A replacement was only about £4 from Maplins and very easy to swap over.


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## JakeS (31 Dec 2012)

AndyT":1bqclgqq said:


> one of the plastic blades of the case fan had snapped



I have to admit to being pretty aghast that that could ever happen!




While cleaning the dust out will help in the majority of cases, you also sometimes find that one program or another has started running amok and using the CPU full whack all the time, which will cause it to heat up more and require the fans to be spun up to top speed to keep it running. I've had problems with web browsers before where they've had a problem with adverts on some sites, videos, or flash animations and gone crazy until I restarted them.

You can check this by right-clicking on the taskbar at the bottom of the screen (not on any of the programs, just the bar) and selecting 'Start Task Manager'; then go to the 'Processes' tab, click once on the 'CPU' column header, and you'll see a list of all the things your PC is running alongside how much of the CPU's time they're taking. If your web browser - or anything else - is taking more than 40% or so continuously, there may be something wrong.


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## devonwoody (31 Dec 2012)

did the task manager thing and the process tab seemed calm showing 0.1 on a couple of things at C.

Went to performance tab and then resource manager and there is one item which is running at 5 to 6% average, named wmpnetwk.exe another perfmon.exe 2.66% and the rest at under 1%.

Cleaned the inside of desktop tower, processor fan seems quiet but I think its casing fan either front or rear making the noise, less since cleaning, but still more than it used to. 

the green performance charts running around upto 8%

did not find the temperature.


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## CHJ (31 Dec 2012)

devonwoody":19xpfz1v said:


> ...I think its casing fan either front or rear making the noise, less since cleaning, but still more than it used to.
> ...



With a casing fan that is starting to sound a little loud from the bearings, if you remove them from the case and inspect them they often have a sticky label (with the voltage etc. details) covering the bearing and 'motor'.

Expose this bearing and with a small watchmakers screwdriver dipped in some light (sewing machine) oil, place a small drop of oil on the bearing, will often keep it going for the useful life of the machine.


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## Lons (31 Dec 2012)

CHJ":cb6chqp2 said:


> devonwoody":cb6chqp2 said:
> 
> 
> > ...I think its casing fan either front or rear making the noise, less since cleaning, but still more than it used to.
> ...



If oiling doesn't work it's normally just a standard 100mm fan, cheaply and easily available almost anywhere including ebay and replaced by undoing 4 small screws. Sometimes the fan is screwed into a holder clipped into the case, varies a bit but self explanatory. The fan is low voltage and easily tested as it has a push on plug connection to the motherboard - 2 pins. (note which way it goes on in case it's the reversable type.)

The graphics card, where a seperate one is fitted sometimes has it's own small fan (sometimes just a heatsink) and these are very prone to the same fault and again can be replaced.

cheers

Bob


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## stevebuk (31 Dec 2012)

yes i heard that Nasty noise too in your last video, but i thought it was the piano myself..LOL


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## devonwoody (1 Jan 2013)

stevebuk":3u7vpfi0 said:


> yes i heard that Nasty noise too in your last video, but i thought it was the piano myself..LOL




No it cannot be that I replaced the keyboard to Tyros 4 special edition couple of days ago. :mrgreen:


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## Harbo (1 Jan 2013)

Isn't your computer fairly new (and still under warranty)?

If not, you can with care run it with the side panel off and listen for the problem one?

Rod


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## devonwoody (1 Jan 2013)

Harbo":h5jvu5yb said:


> Isn't your computer fairly new (and still under warranty)?
> 
> If not, you can with care run it with the side panel off and listen for the problem one?
> 
> Rod




Yes I am going round in a minute to see the builder, is telephone line number does not seem in operation so I am expecting the worse there.

Took the sides off and it sounds like front casing fan.


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## Harbo (1 Jan 2013)

Not so critical if the other fans are working and an easy one to replace as its independent?
Oiling might help that one as its not attached to a module generating heat?

Rod


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## devonwoody (1 Jan 2013)

Just got back from builder, told him the story, he says the processor has got two fans, one in front and one behind so as I cleaned out all others, he will take out processor and clean the other one not accessible.

And do a tidy up because of slowness.

(changed his telephone number recently)


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## Tom K (1 Jan 2013)

devonwoody":pk3e5szz said:


> Harbo":pk3e5szz said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't your computer fairly new (and still under warranty)?
> ...



Some lazy sods take a day off on Jan 1st (homer)


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## Eric The Viking (1 Jan 2013)

@Devonwoody:

Unless your chap is VERY good, don't let him take the processor fan off (there is but one, almost always). 

See my other posting: nowadays it is almost impossible to remove and replace the actual processor fan/heatsink without upsetting the vital, thin and fragile thermal-pad that conducts heat from the processor into the heatsink.

It's a one-shot sticky pad. If you dislodge it you have to clean the remains off both sides (processor and heatsink) very thoroughly indeed and fit a new pad. Any muck or lumps left behind vary the distance, and the heat builds up in the processor, as it can't escape efficiently enough. Inside the processor the transistors themselves run at well above water boiling point, and there's very little room for error. If it's put back wrongly the processor can be literally toasted in seconds. Clean it carefully, but don't disturb it.

The case fan may have a duct that pushes air down over the processor area. That one (mounted on the case) is fine to mess around with, and will probably benefit from a really good clean and/or replacement.

E. 

PS: for what it's worth, I cleaned out my own machine this morning, prompted by this thread. There was a mat of fuzzy fluff on top of the processor heatsink, under the fan. If I hadn't cleaned it, pretty soon the processor would have seriously overheated and burned out. It's a common cause of laptop failure too, as their heatsinks clog even more easily, as the vents are tiny.


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## devonwoody (1 Jan 2013)

Eric The Viking":1g8ofyyi said:


> @Devonwoody:
> 
> Unless your chap is VERY good, don't let him take the processor fan off (there is but one, almost always).
> 
> ...




Computr spec; attached. The pc builder was adamnant that there are two fans to this processor, but I will confirm details again when I take it in.


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## Lons (1 Jan 2013)

Dual cooler fans / heatsink are not uncommon, especially on AMD processors which run noticeably hotter than Intel. They are occasionally arranged so one pulls air whilst the other pushes though the general consensus has always been that a fan must push cool air on to the heatsink fins and not the other war around.

Erics point about the heatsink pad is valid also - up to a point. The main reason for the pads is speed of assembly and the alternative, easily available for years is heatsink compound which comes by in a tube. Does exactly the same job and can replace the pads as long as the surfaces are thoroughly cleaned as Eric said.

It sounds as though it is a case fan however and that's cheap and dead easy to replace. If it were mine, I would do it as a matter of course as it's an important component.

Bob


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## Eric The Viking (1 Jan 2013)

I suspect we're actually agreeing: are you considering 'dual fan' to be one on the heatsink and one pushing air through a duct from the case down over the heatsink fan? If so I understand what you mean.

I wasn't aware that AMDs run that much hotter. I've only seen that arrangement in HP, Dell and a few others. I'd just assumed it was good housekeeping, as it adds cost.

E.


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## JakeS (1 Jan 2013)

Eric The Viking":xyotw60n said:


> I suspect we're actually agreeing: are you considering 'dual fan' to be one on the heatsink and one pushing air through a duct from the case down over the heatsink fan?



The ones I've seen have been more both-ends-of-a-tunnel arrangements, like this:

http://digitalsushi.co.za/image/cache/d ... 00x600.jpg

One fan pulls air into the heatsink, the other pulls air out of the heatsink.

(My understanding is that it doesn't really matter whether the air is pulled or pushed, the thing that matters is maximum flow across the maximum surface area; if you only have one fan then pushing air directly onto the blades is going to be most efficient, because fans gather from a wider cone than they distribute to.)



That said, while I don't understand quite how the one in the picture above goes together, I've not personally seen first-hand a CPU cooler for which it has been necessary to remove the heatsink from the CPU to remove the fans; they've always been removable from the outside while leaving the heatsink block attached. And I would give the same caution as Eric - unless you really, really know what you're doing, it's best to never detach the heatsink block. It can have a massive effect on the thermal transfer from CPU to heatsink.




The short answer, of course, is that if you want a quieter PC, never buy an AMD. Every single one I've personally encountered has been notably noisier than an equivalently-capable Intel-based machine. There's a reason they're cheaper.


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## Lons (1 Jan 2013)

Eric The Viking":1kgsme70 said:


> I suspect we're actually agreeing: are you considering 'dual fan' to be one on the heatsink and one pushing air through a duct from the case down over the heatsink fan? If so I understand what you mean.
> 
> I wasn't aware that AMDs run that much hotter. I've only seen that arrangement in HP, Dell and a few others. I'd just assumed it was good housekeeping, as it adds cost.
> 
> E.



Hi Eric 

No, both fans in dual arrangements are very close to or attached to the heatsink. Case fans are completely seperate (my own desktop has 3, controllable as well as PSU / CPU and graphics card fans.

If you google it you'll probably find them, they are there. More expensive than single fans and not usually used except on high end gaming machines or specials that are overclocked. I once fitted a water cooled system which I couldn't get my head aroung (water / electrics!).

AMD CPUs have traditionally always run nearer the top of their operating capacity than Intel and therefore hotter. The AMD spec is (or was) slightly lower but output similar. That's why Intel were much easier to overclock due to the margin of capacity available and why earlier AMDs needed special heatsinks and tended to have a shorter life. Not quite as simple as that but gives the gist.

Except for the last couple of years I've built a lot of pcs for a lot of people but that was when you could make a few £ out of it.
The first ones when memory was tiny and expensive and hdds held little more than the operating system (DOS then win 3.1 :roll: ). My first CD writer was a Sony tray model X2 speed and you were lucky if you got 1 in 3 good disks out of it - That cost a wopping £395 :shock: 

I would never suggest that anyone inexperienced should remove either CPU or heatsink but the fan, if single is only held by a maximum of 4 screws and sometimes just clips. If the CPU isn't soldered to the motherboard (rare) I would always remove this with the heatsink and separate on the bench. It isn't difficult but a novice could bend the pins or damage components with static etc.

What you and Jake said about separating heatsink and CPU is right but it really isn't difficult and just commonsense. Static wrist strap, very thin blade, careful cleaning and re-attach using a new pad or heatsink compount and its as safe as houses. I've never had one fail - but I've had a lot of practice.

Anyway, back to the original post. DW from his questions clearly isn't experienced and unless it's a case fan shouldn't do it himself.

A case fan however is so easy that anyone getting in a pro to change it is throwing their money away and I'd suggest that anyone capable of using handtools or machinery is very competant.

The arguments about push or pull for CPU fans will be there still I suspect (all forums have their share of Jacobs - couldn't resist - sorry). It's another subject.

Bob


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## Eric The Viking (2 Jan 2013)

I take your points , Bob and Jake. I knew about those posh cooling blocks (the one in the picture looks like it uses liquid cooling too), but I was assuming Devonwoody's one wasn't an ultimate overclocked gaming beast! 

I also know what you mean about thermal pads. I'm sure they're mainly to ensure self-builds happen without problems, as if you use thermal compound you're better off with as little as you can - going back a few years, they used to fail because people put way too much on and effectively insulated the CPU casing from the heatsink!

My first actual PC was 8086 (not 8088!), and I upgraded it to 1MB of ram by removing and replacing the 14-pin DIL chips by hand (still have the special soldering iron tip somewhere). I also had to drill the board very carefully, to add suppression caps on the power rails for memory reliability. Apricots didn't have the 640k limit . I've also got the BIOS upgrade chips somewhere to let it read PC-DOS formatted disks!


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## Lons (2 Jan 2013)

> My first actual PC was 8086 (not 8088!), and I upgraded it to 1MB of ram by removing and replacing the 14-pin DIL chips by hand (still have the special soldering iron tip somewhere). I also had to drill the board very carefully, to add suppression caps on the power rails for memory reliability. Apricots didn't have the 640k limit . I've also got the BIOS upgrade chips somewhere to let it read PC-DOS formatted disks!



Those were the days Eric :lol: 

I think there's a spectrum in my loft somewhere and I remember trying to buy a BBCb and couldn't get one for love nor money so bought a Commodore 64 only to find there was b***er all software and had to write my own. Couldn't do it now - memory's shot :lol: 

1mb ram was decent memory on early PCs. I remember doubling mine to 2mb at extortionate cost #-o was plug in by then though so easy enough.

Bob


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## mseries (2 Jan 2013)

Lons":2oc1uewj said:


> > My first actual PC was 8086 (not 8088!), and I upgraded it to 1MB of ram by removing and replacing the 14-pin DIL chips by hand (still have the special soldering iron tip somewhere). I also had to drill the board very carefully, to add suppression caps on the power rails for memory reliability. Apricots didn't have the 640k limit . I've also got the BIOS upgrade chips somewhere to let it read PC-DOS formatted disks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I used to play on a 16K ZX81, it's what I started programming with, taught myself BASIC. Still in IT now, 30 years later.


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## mind_the_goat (2 Jan 2013)

"Yes I am going round in a minute to see the builder" 
I think that's your problem, I find it's best to let the builder do the brickwork, but buy your computers from a PC engineer


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## Chems (2 Jan 2013)

Late to the party, but I often find the numerous PC's I use start making noises like that. I just give it a good whack on the side and it usually dislodges whatever is causing the sound, a bit of cobweb clipping the fan or something vibrating. 

DW - if it is the main case fan you'd easily be able to replace that yourself with your practical skills!


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## devonwoody (4 Jan 2013)

Chems":3by3k7rw said:


> Late to the party, but I often find the numerous PC's I use start making noises like that. I just give it a good whack on the side and it usually dislodges whatever is causing the sound, a bit of cobweb clipping the fan or something vibrating.
> 
> DW - if it is the main case fan you'd easily be able to replace that yourself with your practical skills!


 

Been for a ride the last couple of days. 

The pc needs a bit of a kick, so going to let the man do his tricks, takes for ever to boot up and other little niggles so decided to have a clean out all ways.


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## bugbear (4 Jan 2013)

Lons":1ok9n999 said:


> ... so bought a Commodore 64 only to find there was b***er all software and had to write my own.



Are you sure?

"Approximately 10,000 commercial software titles were made for the Commodore 64 including development tools, office productivity applications, and games" (Wikipedia)

Now if you'd bought a Dragon or a Jupiter Ace, you'd have really struggled for software...

BugBear


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## mind_the_goat (4 Jan 2013)

I still have my Acorn Atom in the garage. Built it myself and upgraded it to the full 12K of memory, 6 of which was for the video. Overclocked it as well so it ran at 2MHz. I'm going to have to get it out soon while we still have a TV and cassette player it might work with.


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## Lons (4 Jan 2013)

bugbear":365jwyq4 said:


> Lons":365jwyq4 said:
> 
> 
> > ... so bought a Commodore 64 only to find there was b***er all software and had to write my own.
> ...



Yes but unfortunately I bought one of the very first ones and programs and games were very thin on the ground.
The kids were young and impatient so I had to write some simple games initially. I remember there was a magazine around very quickly and a few books with game and application programs for people to copy. Pretty basic stuff.

Bob


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## devonwoody (28 Jan 2013)

That noise as turned out to be a fan bearing on the video card, so the PC has gone to the menders.

Using my old XP computer and I reckon its better than that ~W7 high spec job.


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