# Tool Auction at Stowmarket



## bugbear (1 Aug 2006)

Evidence from the web site notwithstanding (diary entries are for 2005!!), 

http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/diary.html

Tony Murlands "big" auction is at the Cedars (I hope) in Stowmarket tomorrow.

http://www.haylocks.co.uk/cedarshotel/

I shall be attending from around 07.30-09.30 for the very fine tail gating and yard sale.

I expect MJD and Pat Leach to be there, amongst others

BugBear (who's very glad he phoned today!)


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## Pete W (1 Aug 2006)

I'm envious - I have no chance of making it tomorrow. Even more envious on learning about the extra attraction of the early sale  

But I hope you have a great time, and be sure to let us see your trophies


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## bugbear (2 Aug 2006)

Pete W":88rqhjnb said:


> But I hope you have a great time, and be sure to let us see your trophies



Tricky with my digi-cam out of action. I got an Eclipse #36 sharpening jig for 4 quid (more on this mystery anon) and a deep-section chisel by Ward & Payne. 1/16" wide!! (3 quid).

BugBear


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## bugbear (2 Aug 2006)

bugbear":37t854hs said:


> I got an Eclipse #36 sharpening jig for 4 quid (more on this mystery anon



The mystery of Mr Tight-wad paying too much for a common tool is revealed, courtesy of Alf.

It had the instructions with it...

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/album/ ... um=6&pos=0

BugBear (who'd never seen the instructions before)


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## Alf (2 Aug 2006)

Without the junk around it: http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/album/ ... clipse.jpg

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (2 Aug 2006)

I love the damned lies!

_The straight-faced hardened steel roller permits a true square edge to be honed - even on the narrowest chisels_

:^o :^o :^o :^o 

BugBear[/i]


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## Mirboo (2 Aug 2006)

The instructions haven't changed much. Here is a copy of the instructions that came with my Eclipse 36 honing guide. I bought mine new about 18-months ago.







They still claim that "_The straight-faced, hardened steel roller permits a true square edge to be honed - even on the narrowest chisels._" Some of the dimensions have changed a little so a new Eclipse 36 must be a bit different to an older Eclipse 36. Mine is made in England and its got Eclipse 36 "written" on the side.


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## bugbear (2 Aug 2006)

Mirboo":15w8nknl said:


> The instructions haven't changed much. Here is a copy of the instructions that came with my Eclipse 36 honing guide. I bought mine new about 18-months ago.



Heh. And I thought I was being extravagant at 4 quid. I bet a "proper" new one is more than that!

BugBear


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## Mirboo (2 Aug 2006)

bugbear":5jksdivh said:


> Heh. And I thought I was being extravagant at 4 quid. I bet a "proper" new one is more than that!



I don't know about "proper", but I think I paid more than 4 quid. I bought mine from Axminster but I just checked their website and I can't find it listed there anymore. I think it was around 10 or 12 quid? I can't remember exactly.


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## Paul Chapman (2 Aug 2006)

bugbear":2ofui9gx said:


> Heh. And I thought I was being extravagant at 4 quid. I bet a "proper" new one is more than that!



They sell the "proper" ones in B&Q so if you ever go in there you can check the price - I think they are more than 4 quid :wink: 

Paul


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## David C (3 Aug 2006)

Axminster have both the proper Eclipse (Spear & Jackson now?) at about £9 and the far eastern copy at about £5-50. (Their index seems to get worse every year. Has Camellia oil ever made it?) 

As I'm sure you all know, this is absolutely my favorite and most useful honing guide.

The copy has the advantage of extra width, and will take the huge 112 scraping blades. Unfortunately discovered this after writing an article, Book 2, which showed a complex and cumbersome way of getting it into the narrow old eclipse........

The printed propoganda (for user technique), which accompanies the guide is the biggest load of misleading twaddle I have ever read.

The whole point of the narrow roller is that it is easily overidden to make the honing of slightly cambered plane blades easy.

The roller wears and becomes sloppy. Square edges are not likely when the guide is new and entirely dependent on where the finger pressure is exerted by the operator.

I find it essential to place firm force, with one or two forefingers, near to the cutting edge. Slightly out of square grinding is easy to correct by putting more force, onto the finger, which is above the "longer" side.

I never go near the handle, and put as little force as possible, on the guide itself.

Figure of eight with a unidirectional bearing????????

Marples, I think, used to make an amusing guide with one largish ball, for figure of eight work, though why anyone would wish to use this method is beyond me!

It seems very odd that my methods of using this very versatile, simple, cheap guide are almost diametrically opposite to the published instructions.......
This helps to confirm my long held suspicion that many manufacturers do not have a clue about the use and function of the tools they make.

David Charlesworth


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## bugbear (3 Aug 2006)

David C":3h6yl8bk said:


> As I'm sure you all know, this [Eclipse #36] is absolutely my favorite and most useful honing guide.
> 
> The copy has the advantage of extra width, and will take the huge 112 scraping blades. Unfortunately discovered this after writing an article, Book 2, which showed a complex and cumbersome way of getting it into the narrow old eclipse........
> 
> ...



For more information, Alf has what you need:

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/album/ ... hp?album=6
and I have:
http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images ... ge_id=4279

The Marples #7418 had a cambered roller, and the Record #161 had a ball, and was useless - the ball tended not to rotate, and got (in formula one racing terms) flatted. Which made it rotate less. etc...



> This helps to confirm my long held suspicion that many manufacturers do not have a clue about the use and function of the tools they make.



Perhap the design team didn't speak to the manufacturing team who didn't speak to the sales, marketing and packaging team.

Oh, and another personal rant; why the hëll do people think a figure of eight distributes wear evenly - it self evidently maximises wear in the middle of the stone, which is EXACTLY the problem we're trying to avoid.

BugBear


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## bugbear (3 Aug 2006)

Oh, and according to the news on telly last night, a world record for a British tool was set; a bizarre, unusual and rare Norris plane, which a guy won as a prize and NEVER USED, sold for 16,000 pounds.

Too rich for my blood :shock: 

BugBear


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## David C (6 Aug 2006)

Bugbear,

You may have spotted the interesting follow up to the unique Norris plane saga, on www.woodcentral.com ?

Did you by any chance notice what price the 5 1/4 planes fetched?

David


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## Philly (6 Aug 2006)

Hah, you are not kidding Mr C! :shock: :lol: 
They certainly know how to have "fun"............ :twisted: 
Philly


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## Mirboo (6 Aug 2006)

Yeah Mr. C. I've been following that one too. Very interesting.


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## Mirboo (6 Aug 2006)

I just visited Woodcentral to check on the latest developments and the thread has now been deleted.


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## Philly (6 Aug 2006)

Should think do, too. :? 
That kinda thing puts me off my dinner-and sadly the Woodcentral folk seem to have a soft spot for it.
Mind you, I did save St Pats response-good for a laugh.
Philly


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## MikeW (6 Aug 2006)

Mirboo":q7hucbcn said:


> I just visited Woodcentral to check on the latest developments and the thread has now been deleted.


Finally? Somone I know has the complete original messages from the two miscreants.

So does Tony and Patrick. Between the first two posters and some of the bazaar follow up messages, it was headed down hill quickly.

Just to throw another Eclipse-style guide into the mix...before DB does <g>.

_Linky removed..._

Take care, Mike

and I know someone that thinks the Eclipse-style Chinese clones cost too much...


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## Alf (6 Aug 2006)

MikeW":j9ikaz9b said:


> Just to throw another Eclipse-style guide into the mix...before DB does <g>.
> 
> _Link removed by request_
> 
> ...


Oi vey :shock: Bet BB's thinking that 4 quid wasn't so bad after all... 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (6 Aug 2006)

Yep, but the LN versions do look to overcome the cheaper clones' failings. Better made for sure. But deeper v-groove. Pretty necessary for the wider blades [I filed my Eclipse a little wider]. The larger knurled knob and finer pitched bolt may well make it easier to tighten--something the clones around here suffer from.

Seeing how they are not released yet, take the price with a grain of salt. Who knows what the final price will be. But people will pay what the page shows, so...

Take care, Mike
who runs mostly guideless...


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## David C (6 Aug 2006)

Mike where did you find this on the site please?

The concept is very simple but effective. All plane blades (that fit), regardless of thickness are registered from the flat side.
Therefore for any desired angle, projection will be the same, for blades of different thickness.

Exactly the same principle as the chisel slot on the Eclipse type.

David Charlesworth


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## MikeW (6 Aug 2006)

David C":2d4rm0d2 said:


> Mike where did you find this on the site please?
> 
> The concept is very simple but effective. All plane blades (that fit), regardless of thickness are registered from the flat side.
> Therefore for any desired angle, projection will be the same, for blades of different thickness.
> ...


Hi DC,

There is no direct link. Just as there isn't yet to the shaving horse and the scissors and ... :lol: 

I do like what appear to be advancements over my Eclipse and its clones. Not that one may need such improvements per se. But if it works better as far as clamping strength over some of the clones, I'll buy it at their final pricing--whatever it is [well, as long as it is not over $50 <g>].

I have had such variability in the clone's ability to clamp a chisel well, that at classes I almost feel I have to give a disclaimer when I talk about them. They are cost effective, though.

Take care, Mike


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## MarcW (7 Aug 2006)

MikeW":38tsa1eh said:


> There is no direct link. Just as there isn't yet to the shaving horse and the scissors and ... :lol:
> 
> I do like what appear to be advancements over my Eclipse and its clones. Not that one may need such improvements per se. But if it works better as far as clamping strength over some of the clones, I'll buy it at their final pricing--whatever it is [well, as long as it is not over $50 <g>].
> 
> ...



Hi all,

At the moment there isn't any link at all. Someone must have cut with those scissors... :lol: BTW Mike, what are those scissors for? 

After looking at David's dvd on sharpening I got back from freehand sharpening to the eclipse guide. I had some troubles with not square edges.  I find it the most simple and useful honing guide. Well I only have to compare to the Veritas MKI and the Kell for small and short blades. I just wanted to purchase the MKII the moment I remembered having already the eclipse guide. As it is this useful, Tom had the good idea to make a better one. Hopefully he will engrave edge to guide distances for several angles. [-o< This will avoid having another sheet of paper lost somewhere in the shop finding it merely when not needed. ](*,)

Regards and have fun in the shop.

PS:
I'm out for shopping this afternoon. Adore walking in this large warehouse with over 60 different woods.


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## bugbear (7 Aug 2006)

MikeW":1jlktflz said:


> I do like what appear to be advancements over my Eclipse and its clones. Not that one may need such improvements per se. But if it works better as far as clamping strength over some of the clones, I'll buy it at their final pricing--whatever it is [well, as long as it is not over $50 <g>].
> 
> I have had such variability in the clone's ability to clamp a chisel well, that at classes I almost feel I have to give a disclaimer when I talk about them. They are cost effective, though.
> 
> Take care, Mike



I've seen complaints about the side-clampers wearing a groove in the stone, and the clamping not being powerful enough.

IMHO, both problem are caused by the user relying too much on the tool to FORCE him/her to sharpen in the correct way, and not using the tool AS A GUIDE.

Trust me, when you're using a Marples #7418 you learn a delicate touch.

The clamping force is pitiful...

http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images ... ge_id=4279
http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/album/ ... um=6&pos=1

BugBear


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## bugbear (7 Aug 2006)

Mirboo":2b1jvm9n said:


> I just visited Woodcentral to check on the latest developments and the thread has now been deleted.



No fair! I missed it! :twisted: 

BugBear


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## bugbear (7 Aug 2006)

MarcW":2lnmzxm1 said:


> Hopefully he will engrave edge to guide distances for several angles. [-o< This will avoid having another sheet of paper lost somewhere in the shop finding it merely when not needed. ](*,)



I STRONGLY recommend anyone with a classic side-clamper (Eclipse #36 or clones) to make one of these;

http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images ... ge_id=3508

They not only save you having to remember the distances, they automatically give VERY consistent angles from one sharpening to the next; this is very advantageous in minimising the amount of metal to be removed, and thus maximising sharpening speed.

BugBear


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## Paul Chapman (7 Aug 2006)

bugbear":27x97q87 said:


> I STRONGLY recommend anyone with a classic side-clamper (Eclipse #36 or clones) to make one of these;
> 
> http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images ... ge_id=3508
> 
> They not only save you having to remember the distances, they automatically give VERY consistent angles from one sharpening to the next; this is very advantageous in minimising the amount of metal to be removed, and thus maximising sharpening speed.



I second that. I pinched Bugbear's idea - it really saves time and, as he says, results in consistency. Excellent idea, Bugbear, thanks :wink: 

Paul


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## Mirboo (7 Aug 2006)

Yep, I'll third that. I made one after seeing the one described in Leonard Lee's book "The Complete Guide to Sharpening".


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## Paul Chapman (7 Aug 2006)

bugbear":2wg8686i said:


> [
> I STRONGLY recommend anyone with a classic side-clamper (Eclipse #36 or clones) to make one of these;
> 
> http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images ... ge_id=3508



I find you can also use it quite successfully with the Veritas Mk 1 honing guide, which I use for blades which cannot be clamped on the side (for example Record 778 blades) :wink: 

Paul


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## Chris Knight (7 Aug 2006)

Also, if you make a thin (3mm) slip of wood then you can use it as a spacer for a secondary bevel.


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## bugbear (7 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":39ud6rof said:


> I second that. I pinched Bugbear's idea - it really saves time and, as he says, results in consistency. Excellent idea, Bugbear, thanks :wink:
> 
> Paul



Just to be clear, while I have attempted to popularise the idea, I've never claimed I invented it - 'cause I didn't.  

BugBear


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## dedee (7 Aug 2006)

With reference to the jig that Bugbear popularises, with a larger base plate and the stops not quite in the centre one could set the primary angle from one side and a secondary angle from the other?


Andy


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## Paul Chapman (7 Aug 2006)

bugbear":1jraip2n said:


> Paul Chapman":1jraip2n said:
> 
> 
> > I second that. I pinched Bugbear's idea - it really saves time and, as he says, results in consistency. Excellent idea, Bugbear, thanks :wink:
> ...



Well BugBear, your attempts to popularise the idea are working, because that's how I saw it. Thanks again  

Paul


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## David C (8 Aug 2006)

Bugbear,

You may have noticed the setting aid which Deneb had at the last APTC show.

Same principle as 'your's' but set out round a larger square of plywood. This gave room for some more variations of honing angle, for different tools and uses. i.e. 45 degrees for scraper plane blades etc. The thin (approx 3 mm) shim was attached with a boot lace or string and allows for the 2 degree lift when moving to the polishing stone, which is the technique I favour.

Some clever person might be able to find a drawing?

best wishes,
David


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## MikeW (8 Aug 2006)

David C":c6kb3awh said:


> ...
> Some clever person might be able to find a drawing?


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## bugbear (8 Aug 2006)

David C":mlofjeac said:


> Bugbear,
> 
> You may have noticed the setting aid which Deneb had at the last APTC show.
> 
> Same principle as 'your's' but set out round a larger square of plywood.



In a workshop as tiny as mine, finding room for a bigger gadget can be difficult. 

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour.html#photo_tech

Is a shot of the workshop taken from outside the workshop (the benchtop is 5' x 2' for scale)

BugBear


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## DaveL (8 Aug 2006)

bugbear":1045m00x said:


> In a workshop as tiny as mine, finding room for a bigger gadget can be difficult.


You could make lots more space in there, just get rid of that three legged bit of kit, not sure what sort of woodworking tool it is anyway, then you would have room for a 6" square of ply. :roll: :wink:


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## Alf (8 Aug 2006)

You could achieve the same with a single stop at the furthest required point and assorted spacers to shorten the distance for higher angles, couldn't you? But maybe a keychain of spacers would overload the more _bijou_ workshop too...  

Cheers, Alf


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## woodbloke (8 Aug 2006)

Never thought to make such a simple device. I've always used a rule to set the distance from the eclipse jig (DC modified) to the blade edge which is a bit hit and missy to say the least...so will now have to go out to the 'shop and find a couple of bits of ply - Rob


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## bugbear (8 Aug 2006)

woodbloke":2sj227ou said:


> Never thought to make such a simple device. I've always used a rule to set the distance from the eclipse jig (DC modified) to the blade edge which is a bit hit and missy to say the least...so will now have to go out to the 'shop and find a couple of bits of ply - Rob



For me the "compromise" was to use a combo square set to the right distance - which is a bit extravagant (and still not as dead-nuts repeatable as the jig, assuming you ever use the combo square for other purpose!)

BugBear


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## MarcW (8 Aug 2006)

woodbloke":1jia4twi said:


> Never thought to make such a simple device. I've always used a rule to set the distance from the eclipse jig (DC modified) to the blade edge which is a bit hit and missy to say the least...so will now have to go out to the 'shop and find a couple of bits of ply - Rob



Hey Rob,

Don't do that. It is that easy to set the correct distance by eye. 8 times of 10 I'm right at the millimeter. Setting by eye, fixing the screw a little bit measuring, fixing seriously and go. It's kind of that easy. :wink: And the jig where's my jig? Is it the right one? Turn it over, the correct angle at the other side, God where are my glasses? Hey much of fuss! [-( 

Regards, Marc


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## Alf (8 Aug 2006)

MarcW":35unf1qu said:


> And the jig where's my jig? Is it the right one? Turn it over, the correct angle at the other side, God where are my glasses? Hey much of fuss! [-(


That's easily fixed. For my turning gouge sharpening jig I have blocks screwed to the board the grinder is bolted on at the right distances from the edge - always handy and ready to use. Mind you I do have to check which is the one for the spindle gouges and which is for the bowl gouge, but it's not _that_ hard. I get it right nine times out of ten... :wink: If I used honing guides more I'd probably do the same for that - hard to lose when there's a grinder attached to it :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## Paul Chapman (8 Aug 2006)

I have a piece of lipped and varnished chipboard on which I have all my sharpening stuff. I've fixed my blocks to that, so when the short-term memory loss kicks in I can still find them :lol: 

Paul


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## David C (8 Aug 2006)

Mike,

Not found that drawing yet? 

You are a bad man and you know why!

best possible wishes and salutations,
David


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## bugbear (9 Aug 2006)

MarcW":1c22bxp3 said:


> Hey Rob,
> 
> Don't do that[make a jig]. It is that easy to set the correct distance by eye. 8 times of 10 I'm right at the millimeter.



I'm sure you can. But I believe there are strong practical benefits to the tremendous (absurd!) consistency bought by the simple jig.

It's not about having the same bevel angle for cutting - cutting IS effected by bevel angle, but 0.5 degrees makes little difference.

It's about rapid sharpening.

If you can't hit the identical bevel-plane at each sharpening, you have to do enough work to convert the angle of the tool to the angle of presentation.

This is excess work, and excess removal of precious tool IMHO.

Setting by jig, by physical gauge is very quick - probably quicker than eye, since it requires almost no care or attention.

BugBear


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## MarcW (9 Aug 2006)

bugbear":3jizuosl said:


> I'm sure you can. But I believe there are strong practical benefits to the tremendous (absurd!) consistency bought by the simple jig.
> 
> It's not about having the same bevel angle for cutting - cutting IS effected by bevel angle, but 0.5 degrees makes little difference.
> 
> ...



For sure BugBear, the angle has to be consistent. I always measure before I fix the screw. Finally the distance from corner to guide will always be in the range of a quarter of millimeter. In the left hand the blade with the guide and in the right one the steel rule and later the screwdriver. What is quicker? I don't know but certainly there is no more than a couple of seconds of difference. And that's no great gain. 

Important to me is to be careful and to put attention to what I do. I like attention and working rhythm. It maybe sounds warped but that's one reason why I'm in woodworking. Detecting why something doesn't work gives me kind of pleasure. Nothing better than a well fitting joint!

Regards, Marc


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## David C (9 Aug 2006)

Marc,

Detecting why something does not work or does not fit, gives me enormous satisfaction and pleasure. This is surely the route to better technique and better work.

I regularly harrangue my students with virtually your exact phrase!

David Charlesworth


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## MarcW (10 Aug 2006)

David C":3fth81mt said:


> Marc,
> 
> Detecting why something does not work or does not fit, gives me enormous satisfaction and pleasure. This is surely the route to better technique and better work.
> 
> ...



David,
BugBear,

This phrase salvaged my newly bought lumber yesterday. While ripping a two inch board I couldn't saw to the marked line. (4.5 tpi handsaw) I used a wedge, but that didn't prevent the saw from binding. I found out that the set was to shallow. After setting jointing and sharpening, the sawkerf got straight. This was an enormously satisfying moment. What would have been the alternative? I don't have any machines anymore except a small circular saw of which I certainly would burn its inside if using it to cut this thickness. 

Now I'm a teacher too and maybe this kind of phrase comes to us more easily as to others. Judging by the sheer number of posts, Bugbear, you must be older than I am. And I would never want to teach anybody with such an amount of experience. Not that someone had expressed this, just in case someone could think it. :wink: 

A honing guide where I'd love to use a jig other than that delivered with is the Veritas MKI. But as someone mentioned already, differently thick blades discourage this. The measuring method would be helpful here, if there was a small fence to hold the blade against. Only to put the blade square to the guide is so tedious. 

Regards, Marc


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## bugbear (10 Aug 2006)

MarcW":36foplo4 said:


> A honing guide where I'd love to use a jig other than that delivered with is the Veritas MKI. But as someone mentioned already, differently thick blades discourage this.



The Eclipse guide has exactly the same (geometrical) issue (*). But (as I said) consistency of angle between sharpenings is much more important than getting some "absolute" angle, so (in practice) I don't worry about the difference in bevel angle I'm getting between "normal" bailey blades (a scant 1/8", or 2/16") and woodie blades (a scant 3/16")

With a projection distance of 1 1/2" inches for 30 degree, a height difference of the 1/16" (3/16" - 2/6") makes a angle difference of invtan((1/16)/1.5) ~= 2 degrees.

BugBear

(*) only jigs that reference the back surface of the blade get this right, and there aren't many. LV mk II is notable here.


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## MarcW (10 Aug 2006)

bugbear":3ok333ig said:


> With a projection distance of 1 1/2" inches for 30 degree, a height difference of the 1/16" (3/16" - 2/6") makes a angle difference of invtan((1/16)/1.5) ~= 2 degrees.
> 
> BugBear
> 
> (*) only jigs that reference the back surface of the blade get this right, and there aren't many. LV mk II is notable here.



2 degrees neglectable, the jig would not only help finding the consistent angle, but get the blade's edge parallel to the guide's edge. Skew blades would profit from this. :arrow: I will put it on my to-do-list. Thanks!

Regards, Marc


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## Paul Chapman (10 Aug 2006)

MarcW":2wzkjfgs said:


> A honing guide where I'd love to use a jig other than that delivered with is the Veritas MKI.



Marc, I have the Veritas Mk1 honing guide and the angle setting jig supplied with it, but I have never found the Veritas angle setting jig very good. I now use the "BugBear type" (as I call it :wink: ) wooden jig with it, and that has been very successful, fast and consistent and helps to keep the honed edge square.

Paul


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## bugbear (10 Aug 2006)

Paul Chapman":3mumupme said:


> ... and helps to keep the honed edge square.



On a rather separate note, don't assume that simply because a blade is square in the honing guide, that the blade will inevitably end up sharpened square.

No honing guide exerts enough "authority" to stop the blade becoming skewed if you put more pressure on one side than the other. (*)

This is easily seen to be true, since no honing guide (not even my monster) exerts enough authority to stop you putting the David-Charlesworth-Recommended tiny camber on your smoothing blades...

BugBear

(*) in particular, the idea that the tiny roller on an Eclipse #36 has more lateral authority than a 2 1/2" blade under high honing force verges on the amusing.


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## David C (11 Aug 2006)

Bugbear, 

well said. That is why the Eclipse pamphlet instructions are so thoroughly misleading.

In the sharpening technique which I describe and use, the squareness of an edge is controlled entirely with the force applied by two fore fingers.

If using my three bevel method, (Grind, coarse stone, polish) and if the coarse stone honing bevel is narrow, it is easy to square up a slightly out of square grind, or to correct an out of square edge.

This is much much more difficult and time consuming to do if one chooses a single bevel, or allows the coarse stone bevel to get too wide.

best wishes,
David


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