# Finishing ASH and MAPLE



## Des333 (25 Nov 2016)

What is the best finishes for ASH or MAPLE wood to retain their white finishes? Decorative boxes some plain wood and some with inlays.

I've read a lot on the different types of polyurethane (oil and water based) but seems mixed results. I've just tried DANISH oil on Maple an sure enough it has taken on the darker colour, no doubt Ash will be the same. 
Should I use a transparent French Polish to maintain white or is this not robust enough ?

Clear water based polyurethane seems to be getting more popular but can it be finished to such a fine degree for decorative work, either a deep gloss or similar to multi coats of Danish oil?


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## Doug B (25 Nov 2016)

I've found acrylic lacquer is the slowest to yellow, but eventually the whiteness is lost with all finishes


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## ED65 (25 Nov 2016)

There are actually a couple of other threads right at the top of the forum currently covering the topic of clear finishes and lighter-coloured woods if you want to go check those out.

Shellac is robust enough for use on tool handles, so definitely good enough for a lot of indoor pieces as long as you aren't worried about water or alcohol getting on the thing. If the colour you get from transparent French polish is fine with you then I don't see any reason you shouldn't use it on boxes.



Des333":2wy7945q said:


> Clear water based polyurethane seems to be getting more popular but can it be finished to such a fine degree for decorative work, either a deep gloss or similar to multi coats of Danish oil?


The right ones can certainly give a high gloss but whether it's quite good enough is up to the individual. Honestly the finish achievable with Danish oils isn't a particularly high standard for gloss level so if that's acceptable then I think you'd be more than happy enough with the gloss level from a good water-based poly.


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## sunnybob (25 Nov 2016)

I'm also still looking for something to keep Maple white. Wipe on poly leaves it a strange mottled yellow.


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## Des333 (25 Nov 2016)

Thanks for the comments. Sorry ED65 I may have misled you, the Danish oil is more for a lustre to the wood while, in most darker wood colours, brings out the colour of the wood. I went away from deep gloss finishes a while back as they looked wrong, IMHO, comparing commercial boxes with sprayed finish and a depth and gloss like plastic I just wanted my work to have a nice finish and protection but something natural. Emily Palm (Blue Herron Woodwork) has made some fine boxes and she used Danish oil, the boxes have an oiled finish that presents the box at their best without a deep gloss (a deep gloss would probably look wrong).


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## marcros (25 Nov 2016)

i would use a super blonde shellac.

Lemon oil is said to keep the wood pale, but I have not tried it. I noted it down to give it a go at some point, but to be honest I like the shellac as a finish so there is/was no urgency.


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## ED65 (25 Nov 2016)

Coincidentally just stumbled across this a few minutes ago: A Nonyellowing Finish for Maple.


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## custard (25 Nov 2016)

Des, here's the thing, Ash and Maple may superficially look similar in that they're both pale timbers, but when it comes to finishing they're actually poles apart. 

The critical difference is that Maple has a really tight grain that's ready for finishing straight after sanding, where as Ash is at the opposite end of the spectrum with an especially course and open grain. If you want an Ash box that's "finished to...a fine degree" then first you have to decide on a strategy for grain filling. If you plan on using a water based poly to retain that pale look then you could think about Aqua Coat as the grain filler, its expensive but it does a good job on Ash. If you're going to use a blonde shellac then you have to decide between cheap and cheerful grain filling with plaster of paris or the more laborious traditional method using rottenstone or a similar abrasive medium. The abrasive route gets complicated if there are dark wood inlays as unless you know what you're doing you'll smear dark wood dust into the open Ash grain.

Whatever you choose make sure you experiment on off-cuts. Much of the finishing advice you get on the internet is criminally inept, it's the blind leading the blind, so prove any technique first on scrap timber in your own workshop before setting to on boxes that have taken you many hours to make.

Good luck!


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## Des333 (26 Nov 2016)

Custard, thanks for the reply very informative. I knew maple was a tight grain as it showed up on working the wood but I didn't know Ash was such an open grain, at times thin layers of the wood show through and can spoil or make working the wood awkward. As you say rottenstone may be the better traditional way to go but having not used it at all, and with inlays could be messy. I'm thinking the most effective way to go could be to use a shellac sanding sealer (Zinsser?) to fill the grain and then use a super blonde shellac. What is the difference between a blonde shellac and a transparent? I have a transparent and it not exactly clear.


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## woodpig (26 Nov 2016)

Cellulose sanding sealer seems to work well enough. I'd keep away from using any "natural" products that are likely to yellow over time.


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## Gerard Scanlan (26 Nov 2016)

Osmo 3040 mixed with Osmo 3062 half and half. Works a treat. Very blonde shellac is good to but I find it does yellow a little after 6 months or so.


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## custard (26 Nov 2016)

Des333":387ducxo said:


> Custard, thanks for the reply very informative. I knew maple was a tight grain as it showed up on working the wood but I didn't know Ash was such an open grain, at times thin layers of the wood show through and can spoil or make working the wood awkward. As you say rottenstone may be the better traditional way to go but having not used it at all, and with inlays could be messy. I'm thinking the most effective way to go could be to use a shellac sanding sealer (Zinsser?) to fill the grain and then use a super blonde shellac. What is the difference between a blonde shellac and a transparent? I have a transparent and it not exactly clear.




Nothing wrong with sanding sealer under shellac for boxes, sanding sealer can be a bit soft for hard use furniture and it does shrink a bit more even when it appears dry, so leave an extra day or two before sanding for that final coat.

Difference between transparent and blonde? Who knows, different manufacturers use all sorts of descriptions, which is why you shouldn't rely on internet advice or packaging descriptions but should always try it first on scrap!

Zinsser aren't the only supplier of shellac sanding sealer, and their UK supply chain can be a bit hit and miss on their less used products, Rustins, Liberon and other UK manufacturers all do blonde shellac sanding sealer that's likely to be a bit fresher.


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## SurreyBod (3 Dec 2016)

Definitely agree with the comment on ash and grain. I've just finished a piece (a picture frame) in ash with a black ebony inlay. Getting a good finish has proved a real b*tch. The fine dust from the ebony seems to find a home in the grain of the ash and gives it a dirty look. Added to which I finished it with a danish oil finish which has further muddied the look. Thankfully it was a test piece so was browsing this forum looking for finishing advice.

(Managed to remove the "dust" problem simply by the fairly brutal approach of running the frame edges back through the table saw. Need a better solution for next time through)


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## thetyreman (5 Dec 2016)

SurreyBod":2noftsxo said:


> Definitely agree with the comment on ash and grain. I've just finished a piece (a picture frame) in ash with a black ebony inlay. Getting a good finish has proved a real b*tch. The fine dust from the ebony seems to find a home in the grain of the ash and gives it a dirty look. Added to which I finished it with a danish oil finish which has further muddied the look. Thankfully it was a test piece so was browsing this forum looking for finishing advice.
> 
> (Managed to remove the "dust" problem simply by the fairly brutal approach of running the frame edges back through the table saw. Need a better solution for next time through)



you need a tack cloth to remove the dust, get some.


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## custard (5 Dec 2016)

thetyreman":us3q3tw7 said:


> you need a tack cloth to remove the dust, get some.



Don't bother, at least not for this job. 

A tack rag won't work, it can't get right into the pores so it won't remove that Ebony grubbiness. A compressed air line will shift some but not all of it. Better solutions are either using a freshly sharpened and finely set scraper to bring the Ebony inlay all the way down flush (with no use of abrasive paper at all), even then you'll still produce some dust so you should also use a soft brush to regularly sweep away the fines. Alternatively, fill the grain of the ground _before_ inlaying with something like sanding sealer or shellac.

Actually I find inlaying with Ebony such a huge faff that I prefer to inlay with Sycamore or Holly for pale lines, and Laburnum, African Blackwood or Indian Rosewood for dark brown/black lines. These timbers aren't as brittle as Ebony, so you don't get quite as many dust producing micro fractures. You can also get Sycamore stringing lines that have been died black, that helps but personally I don't use it as I prefer to cut my own stringing and inlay lines to the exact specifications I want.


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## woodbrains (5 Dec 2016)

Hello,

Also, tack rags can cause adhesion problems with modern water born poly. 

I know a fine maker of marquetry boxes, who cannot avoid getting different colour dust contamination after sanding. It is just a matter of the meticulous use of a powerful vacuum cleaner, dusting brushes and perhaps an airline.

Mike.


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