# becoming a cabinet maker



## woodmani (11 Oct 2013)

Hi there,

I have left my I.T job due to the ar#$e licking nature of the workplace, feel of isolation by others and generally I had no passion for the I.T work. My passion is working with wood and building my knowledge on it. Although i admit i have a hill to climb on knowledge and techniques, I have taken a fondness of becoming a cabinet maker and from my recent post about making bedside cabinets i decided to use them as a portfolio for my work to move forward. I have a creative imagination and tackle issues step by step with common sense, learning as i go along. 

Can anyone please tell me what is the best way to establish myself and how easy or difficult is it? I have a limited budget so I can't spend money on renting a unit or splashing money on electric machine tools which almost most say i need to do, without it i can't be successful. admittedly I'm reluctant to using electric tools knowing they do the job faster due to past bad experience but I prefer working with my hands with hand tools i have invested in but i'm unsure whether any of you will agree if machines are the way forward or not.

any of your guidance or past experience would be much appreciated so i can guide myself.

Thank you
Mani


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## Baldhead (11 Oct 2013)

Mani

I'm a hobby woodworker and retired but not from a woodworking background, I would suggest you need to speak to Dodge or Mailee, they are both professionals in the 'industry'. Your reluctance to use power tools may be a big mistake as speed in making projects leads to more work/money.
Others have said on this site that woodworking for a hobby is very different to woodworking for a job, I used to make several items which I could sell, however the repetitive nature of making the same thing day in day out made my woodworking a bit of a chore, also you will no doubt have to work with timbers you dislike (MDF horrible stuff, but cheap and smooth), and make things which you dislike making.

The professionals here will no doubt add to this, if I haven't put you off, I would like to wish you all the luck in the world and I hope you are successful which ever career path you take.

BH


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## bugbear (11 Oct 2013)

woodmani":1p1gfjs2 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I have left my I.T job due to the ar#$e licking nature of the workplace, feel of isolation by others and generally I had no passion for the I.T work. My passion is working with wood and building my knowledge on it. Although i admit i have a hill to climb on knowledge and techniques, I have taken a fondness of becoming a cabinet maker and from my recent post about making bedside cabinets i decided to use them as a portfolio for my work to move forward. I have a creative imagination and tackle issues step by step with common sense, learning as i go along.
> 
> ...



How long did you take to make the bedside cabinets, how much did the materials cost, how much do you think you could sell them for?

BugBear


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## woodmani (11 Oct 2013)

Thanks BH,

People have said time is money so need to invest in electrical machinery but I don't have a massive work area as its only my garage where I have 2 long work benches. 

Bugbear,

I've only just done the concept and calculating material requirement. Once I do that I can visit maybe Jewson and call Sykes and get a costing. I don't think I can compete with the cheaper chipboard, MDF plastic veneer stuff as this is solid wood. Not being too optimistic but I'm hoping the little things will lead to bigger things but I do acknowledge that bespoke solid wood furniture is a niche market


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## Chrispy (11 Oct 2013)

As fore becoming a Cabinet maker that's easy, you can call your self anything you like! But if you want to earn a living from it then you have to have something to sell, basically your skills and your time.

It sounds like you have the time but have you the skills? from the way you talk the questions you ask I think not.

You need to learn first, enroll on a furniture making course and get a grounding to work on.


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## MMUK (11 Oct 2013)

You also need to consider if there's a market. Remember you'll never be able to compete with off the shelf prices. Yes you'll be providing a much higher quality item that will last many years more than an Ikea/Argos chipboard special, but you'll find that 99% of people won't see the cost/lifetime equation just the up front cost. That is the biggest bugbear I have, most people don't seem to appreciate that if you buy cheap you buy at least twice. :roll: 

For instance, I costed up a rabbit hutch about three months ago. 6' x 2'6" x 2'. I came in at just shy of £450 delivered. I'd spec'd up for 1/2" marine ply and planed timber with a linolium floor. What does the customer do? She goes out and buys a Pets at Home hutch on offer for £200 and guess what? It's rotting already and the "plywood" (lol) is delaminating. :roll: :roll:


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## woodmani (11 Oct 2013)

I've come across that once. lady wanted a double door cupboard made, nothing fancy. MDF materials came at £75, i added a modest £60 a day labour, 1 day to build, paint and 1 day to deliver and fit. she started to haggle and i said its not worth my time and distance to make it, better off with something from Ikea.

I guess at the moment i need to gauge what the reality is out there for others


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## Graham Orm (11 Oct 2013)

Don't want to rain on your parade, but you sound very much out of your depth. Wanting to start making a living with no power tools and being happy to make £60 a day (which is working at a loss when self employed) indicate that you've not done a great deal of research. First of all work out what your life costs to run, mortgage/rent motor expenses, food, utilities...then add how much you want on top....THEN start working out your business costs, insurance, tool depreciation, stock, lighting and heating your workshop. There will be more. Divide the total by how many hours a week you want to work to see how much a day you need. For most self employed people £150 a day is a living wage after all expenses, I'm up north, it's probably more than that in the south.

EDIT: Forgot marketing, how will you let people know you exist? have you costed advertising at all, it ain't cheap.

Once again...sorry :wink: 

Good luck.


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## woodmani (11 Oct 2013)

you said nothing to be sorry about...


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## Graham Orm (11 Oct 2013)

woodmani":1nc8pd4s said:


> you said nothing to be sorry about...



Just didn't want to sound like a nay sayer. I fit kitchens and bathrooms for a living and would dearly love to make nice pieces of furniture instead. I have a good sized workshop and plenty of gear but I know for a fact it would be nigh on impossible for me to start making a living from scratch. I've been self employed for over 30 years. It's nice to have a dream but you have to be a realist too if you want to avoid disappointment. 

Something that someone else mentioned above is that it's great when you can go and watch telly and have a brew when you've had enough, but when you're under pressure to get a set number of an item out by weekend or you need to finish and sell a piece by a deadline to make a wage it will stop being fun and become a job. That thought has often crossed my mind when I've been tempted to have a go. 

Maybe you could get some training and see if you can get a job in the industry if you're passionate enough? Let someone else do the worrying while you do what you enjoy.


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## Flynnwood (11 Oct 2013)

I don't want to come across as a nay sayer either.

I would very, very strongly suggest you create a cashflow forecast for the next 24 months and also a Profit and Loss forecast. It will give you a bigger perspective against what you face.

Just saying ....


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## Graham Orm (11 Oct 2013)

Flynnwood":1zbft33y said:


> I don't want to come across as a nay sayer either.
> 
> I would very, very strongly suggest you create a cashflow forecast for the next 24 months and also a Profit and Loss forecast. It will give you a bigger perspective against what you face.
> 
> Just saying ....



Agreed.

F'rinstance.................In the last 3 weeks, 3 new tyres for the van £250. Drill burned out replacement cost £140. Suspended work on Monday/Tue as the clutch has gone on the van, another £700. All these things have to be bargained for in your projection.


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## Steve Maskery (11 Oct 2013)

Just my 2p - there are 1000 billable hours in a year. You will work twice that, but 1000 of them will be billable.
So if you charge £20 per hour you will turn over 20K, £50 per hour you will turn over 50K. So you have have to be worth £20 or £50 per hour, and then all your costs come out of that. What's left is yours.
If you are worth it, you will have a successful business.
If your work is not worth it, no-one will buy and you will not earn anything at all.
Good luck.
S


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## petermillard (11 Oct 2013)

Totally agree with what Grayorm has written. If it's any help I have a simple 'cost of doing business' spreadsheet that let's you plug in the numbers and figure out a reasonable day-rate for yourself, though I'd hope a former IT professional would be able to do this in their sleep, lol! PM me if you think it'll help and I'll send it over.



woodmani":1s99mduh said:


> I guess at the moment i need to gauge what the reality is out there for others


You need to gauge what the reality is for *you*

Best, Pete


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## doorframe (11 Oct 2013)

woodmani":2commxsp said:


> I have left my I.T job



I take it then that you have no job, in which case what do you have to lose? Go for it, and good luck.

I don't know your requirements (money-wise) to keep a roof over your head. If you've said goodbye to your mortgage and children then you can maybe afford to take a chance.

If you're knee deep in debt then you'd best be looking hard for a well paid 9-5.

Either way, good luck. I wish I was in a position to give it a go, but for some reason Lloyds seem quite determined that I repay the money they lent me to buy this house.


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## nanscombe (11 Oct 2013)

I guess a possibly simplistic but scary, non-business way of looking at it would be to think about the monthly / annual bills that you used to pay when you were working.

That's probably the sort of money you'd have to make after you've paid for materials and business expenses.

For me, I'd have to make an excess of about £11k over the year. :shock:


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## mailee (11 Oct 2013)

Most of it has been stated above so I won't repeat it. You will not earn a living with hand tools unless you have a very good reputation as a high end cabinet maker and can command high prices. You must advertise to start with or how does anyone know you are out there? Family and friends are great but this is not a wide enough audience. Best places are local Church mag (Pretty cheap) the phone book and a website. The latter two will cost much more dependant on your web skills. Your family will have to be 100% behind you as you will be working some long hours for little or no pay at times. To give you an example I returned from work tonight at 7.30 pm after starting work at 9am, the reason for this is that I have been fitting a set of wardrobes I had built for a customer. This job of fitting I had calculated should have been about a day and a half as the old one had to be removed, this took much longer than expected. add to that that one of the cabinets had to be fabricated on site and it took much longer than I had priced for! luckily these jobs are few and far between but they do happen. I will now spend a couple of hours on the computer pricing and drawing up some plans for another possible job (which I get no pay for) and then hope it is worth the effort and I do get the job. You will also need some extra space for the work that is finished but waiting to be fitted or space for refinishing the cabinets away from the dust. 
I would sit back and have a good think about it and work out a business plan, I think you will find hand tool work just isn't for the self employed. Sorry for the negative post but it is a big step to take without a lot of thought to it. HTH.


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## Graham Orm (11 Oct 2013)

I think he's gone to the pub.


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## Max Power (11 Oct 2013)

I too have resigned from my well paid secure job that supported my wife and familly ccasion5: 

I am planning on doing cosmetic surgery as I hear the pay is quite good.  

I have no equipment other than my wifes kitchen knives and absolutely no experience whatsoever  

Do you think Ive done the right thing :? 

:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## doctor Bob (11 Oct 2013)

Every one has to start somewhere but to be honest I think you need a bit more experience than a couple of bedside cabinets.

Having said that If I can run a cabinet making business anyone can........


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## Max Power (11 Oct 2013)

What is your advice for my business Bob


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## nathandavies (11 Oct 2013)

mailee sums it up quite nicely. I make cabinets for a living, using as many machines as I can afford to speed things up. the idea of making things with hand tools is wonderful but unfortunately unrealistic unless you have a reputation, even then you are a bit of a novelty. I was talking to a rep the other day and said to him that I wished i'd worked harder at school so that I could make more money in an easier way and woodwork was a hobby. that being said it is in my opinion a wonderful way to make a living, whilst you are making a living, but like any other self employed business, if you have no paying work it's a killer. if you do give it a go, good luck and at least when you get to 80 you won't be thinking "I wish i'd given it a go" 

nathan


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## doctor Bob (11 Oct 2013)

Max Power":3fmmwd7d said:


> I too have resigned from my well paid secure job that supported my wife and familly ccasion5:
> 
> I am planning on doing cosmetic surgery as I hear the pay is quite good.
> 
> ...



Whats the worst that can happen .......


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## Max Power (11 Oct 2013)

Woo Hoo just a few clients like that and this time next year Ill be a millionaire (hammer)

Now wheres she put those knives :?


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## nathandavies (11 Oct 2013)

some nice work there bob. how many people have you got working for you?


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## Cheshirechappie (11 Oct 2013)

Well, you've read the voices of hard-bitten experience above. VERY few people make a living as hand-tool only woodworkers. That said, google 'Tony Konovaloff', and see if you can track down a copy of John Brown's book 'Making Welsh Stick Chairs' (http://www.abebooks.co.uk is probably your best bet).

More people make it as self-employed cabinetmakers, furniture restorers and the like (and those are related but very different skills); however, as with any other walk of life, success needs a sound footing - starting with the necessary skills. Aquiring those can take years. The old apprenticeships were generally for about five years. Modern full-time courses are a bit shorter. As you're doing that, you can start to put together a body of work to show potential clients. Then you'll need to develop the business and marketing skills, find premises and equipment, build contacts for timber supplies and so on.

It can be done, but it'll take time and financial investment. It'll need, above all else, sheer bl**dy determination to overcome all the obstacles that will arise. It's said that most people over-estimate what they can achieve in a year, but underestimate what they can achieve in a decade.

Other people have done it. So can you. If you REALLY want to.

Good luck, and keep us posted!


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## Baldhead (11 Oct 2013)

Max Power":3a4iu0ch said:


> I too have resigned from my well paid secure job that supported my wife and familly ccasion5:
> 
> I am planning on doing cosmetic surgery as I hear the pay is quite good.
> 
> ...


Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. 

BH


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## doctor Bob (11 Oct 2013)

nathandavies":36258hj6 said:


> some nice work there bob. how many people have you got working for you?



7 of us altogether.
Another apprentice should be starting next month


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## nathandavies (11 Oct 2013)

pm'd bob


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## cutting42 (12 Oct 2013)

Hi Mani (when you get back from the Pub)

I do not know most of the posters here but I have met doctor bob and seen his workshop. He has nailed (haha, see what I did there) the concept of making a living out of woodworking and it has nothing to do with hand tools unfortunately.

Some of it depends what stuff you want to make but mostly it depends on what people are prepared to buy. Most households are prepared to spend thousands of fitting out a kitchen but only spend hundreds on bedroom furniture despite the skills and cabinets being largely the same. 

The other profitable area can be art pieces, if you have the creative ability to build beautiful and desirable objects be they tables, chairs or sculptures, all you need to learn are the practical skills to turn your ideas into reality. You can do this at college and get qualified as a student or you can pay for one of the many residential courses around the country (many in Devon for some reason) to learn fine hand skills. Trouble with art is that the people who buy art are often snobs and will only buy a "name" so you have to create one. 

I have a good friend who now makes high quality furniture in his double garage. He started as a site joiner, moved to fitted cupboards and odd jobs and from those contacts got his first furniture commission. From then on he transferred his earning from less joinery and odd jobs to more and more high quality pieces. However he does have a table saw, spindle moulder, bandsaw, planer, thicknesser as well as a fine collection of hand tools. He came with me to see Bobs workshop and he realised he was not efficient enough and really needs to get a bigger premises and better machinery as he can't keep up with demand and he is still not making enough money.

Best of luck


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## Max Power (12 Oct 2013)

Making and installing kitchens is certainly one of the better ways to make money as a woodworker Gareth, but would the semi automated conversion of sheet material into boxes fulfil the original posters ambition to be a cabinetmaker :? 

While both Rembrandt and my nephew (a car sprayer) could both be described as painters I doubt many would consider their work the same


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2013)

Bedside cabinets is a good idea for a start up. Post up some snaps of yours?
If they are any good make a batch, not just one at a time. Do 10 as efficiently as you can and then sell them for whatever you can get. Give them away if necessary - you want experience and turnover.


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## cutting42 (12 Oct 2013)

Max Power":1b97j41z said:


> Making and installing kitchens is certainly one of the better ways to make money as a woodworker Gareth, but would the semi automated conversion of sheet material into boxes fulfil the original posters ambition to be a cabinetmaker :?
> 
> While both Rembrandt and my nephew (a car sprayer) could both be described as painters I doubt many would consider their work the same



Depends if you want a hobby or a profession!

Many have described in detail how hard it is to make money at this regardless. My approach would be to to focus on making a living and then branch out into fun stuff.

You can easily make a small fortune making fine furniture, just start with a large one!


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## powertools (12 Oct 2013)

I'm not qualified to say weather you could make a living from this idea or not. Woodwork is my hobby and unlike you I am prepared to accept the many down sides of work in order to be able to do the things I enjoy in my spare time.
One thing I am qualified enough to tell you is that running a home based business is the most frustrating thing you could possibly try to do, the only person who thinks you are at work is you and any problem that arises among your family and friends they will turn to you to help because they are at work and you are at home.


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## Max Power (12 Oct 2013)

Jacob":1aldytlp said:


> Give them away if necessary - you want experience and turnover.



Sounds like an excellent business model Jacob, You should promote yourself as a Sales and Marketing Guru as well as a Sharpening Guru. Perhaps even write a book and film script, I can see it now "My journey from rags to ruin"


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## Jacob (12 Oct 2013)

It's not a business model.
You have to get started which may mean flailing about and making mistakes (if they are really bad you give them away or burn them :shock: ). But you might hit the jackpot from day one. You won't know if you don't get started.
PS and getting started is the beginning of being of able to make "business models" cash flow projections etc. You have to have some input to start with.


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## nanscombe (12 Oct 2013)

Max Power":2zji59q8 said:


> Jacob":2zji59q8 said:
> 
> 
> > Give them away if necessary - you want experience and turnover.
> ...



How many hobbyists start out by just making things, to get the practice, and giving them away to family and friends. The main difference being they are not relying on them as their main source of income.

One day a friend of a friend sees it and asks "Where did you get that?" and you may end up with a commission that you wouldn't have had if no-one ever saw your work.


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## RogerS (12 Oct 2013)

Max Power":sbicsudu said:


> Jacob":sbicsudu said:
> 
> 
> > Give them away if necessary - you want experience and turnover.
> ...



Not to worry, Max. Not sure how you can have any "turnover" if you are "giving things away"


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## Graham Orm (12 Oct 2013)

Given me an idea actually. I have an up market customer who seems to like me. I'm sure she'd be happy to 'borrow' a piece indefinitely and show it to her friends, with a view to commission on any sales made thereafter.


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## Flynnwood (12 Oct 2013)

Just to bring this topic back into the real world for the OP.

90%+ of business ideas fail because of inadequate cashflow. That's it (the point) !


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## Max Power (12 Oct 2013)

Grayorm":38ksww3t said:


> Given me an idea actually. I have an up market customer who seems to like me. I'm sure she'd be happy to 'borrow' a piece indefinitely and show it to her friends, with a view to commission on any sales made thereafter.




If she's "up-market" she's a Client not a customer Graham :lol:


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## Graham Orm (12 Oct 2013)

Max Power":2kug4w96 said:


> Grayorm":2kug4w96 said:
> 
> 
> > Given me an idea actually. I have an up market customer who seems to like me. I'm sure she'd be happy to 'borrow' a piece indefinitely and show it to her friends, with a view to commission on any sales made thereafter.
> ...



 Oops :wink:


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## nanscombe (13 Oct 2013)

Grayorm":2pwsx24y said:


> Given me an idea actually. I have an up market customer who seems to like me. I'm sure she'd be happy to 'borrow' a piece indefinitely and show it to her friends, with a view to commission on any sales made thereafter.



The more people that see your work the better. If it sits in someone else's home, rather than your workshop (or home), the more chance that the right person will see it and want one themselves. :wink:


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## MickCheese (13 Oct 2013)

powertools":2x4ql1yk said:


> I'm not qualified to say weather you could make a living from this idea or not. Woodwork is my hobby and unlike you I am prepared to accept the many down sides of work in order to be able to do the things I enjoy in my spare time.
> One thing I am qualified enough to tell you is that running a home based business is the most frustrating thing you could possibly try to do, the only person who thinks you are at work is you and any problem that arises among your family and friends they will turn to you to help because they are at work and you are at home.



This is so true.

My wife is a sole trader working from home, not woodwork but breeding and selling 'creepy crawlies', tarantulas, scorpions and such. (She looks normal but I keep telling her she is not!)

But my point is that like the poster above she constantly gets put upon to collect other family members kids from school when they are sick, asked to lunch by friends and in general no one thinks she works. She actually works a lot harder than I, she works longer hours and gets paid less.

So

A job in IT may sound dull and boring but it will give you security and then take an evening class in basic cabinet making. That will tell you if you have the skill set to make a god of it.

Good luck.

Mick


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## RogerS (13 Oct 2013)

MickCheese":1g8eribv said:


> ....
> A job in IT may sound dull and boring but it will give you security and then take an evening class in basic cabinet making. ....
> 
> Mick



I think it might be a bit late for that......from the OP

_I have left my I.T job _ :wink:


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## Water-Mark (13 Oct 2013)

Work is work and there will always be times you dislike it whatever you do.

As someone who has been self employed for a number of decades now, most of my working life in fact I'd like to add the business of holidays, sick and pension.

There's a lot to be said for a 9 - 5 with benefits, even one you don't like.


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## RogerS (13 Oct 2013)

Water-Mark":1hlkz28k said:


> Work is work and there will always be times you dislike it whatever you do.
> 
> As someone who has been self employed for a number of decades now, most of my working life in fact I'd like to add the business of holidays, sick and pension.
> 
> There's a lot to be said for a 9 - 5 with benefits, even one you don't like.



Not to mention that regular salary cheque each month.

And knowing that weekends, the time is your own. Not spent playing catch-up on the work you did/didn't do in the week.


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## Steve Maskery (13 Oct 2013)

Ah, the other man's grass is always greener, eh?
It certainly is.
S


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## Peter Sefton (13 Oct 2013)

Self-employment is hard work and not for everyone, but how many of you self-employed makers would go back to your old life of working for someone in a job that you didn't like? 
Other professions may be more financially rewarding but I enjoy furniture making as much today as I did 30 years ago when I started out. I have so many students that come to me that do earn very well but hate every day at work. You’re a long time working and a long time dead I say do what you enjoy but test the water first.


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## doctor Bob (13 Oct 2013)

Some of the guys on here seem to do really long hours.
I try and do a 5 day week, I work 3-4 Saturday mornings a year.
I probably work a 50 week.
It wasn't like this when I started out but now I sort of think what is the point of having my own business if I can't have a good way of life.


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## mseries (13 Oct 2013)

Not all IT jobs are dull and boring and not all IT jobs are that secure either.


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## petermillard (13 Oct 2013)

doctor Bob":13drlcbd said:


> It wasn't like this when I started out but now I sort of think what is the point of having my own business if I can't have a good way of life.


This, exactly. I've been self-employed all my working life and the odd long day or a bit of weekend work sometimes is unavoidable, but I mostly work a roughly 9 hr day, five days a week. As for pension, paid holidays and sick leave; it's my business - it's up to me to build those costs into my fee structure. So I do.

Cheers, Pete


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## sawdust1 (13 Oct 2013)

hi all, when i started on the road as a full time furniture maker about 26 years ago their were not that many of us out here in the sticks but now every one with a few tools in the garage wants to become one, now i don't have a problem with that but it does dilute the pool of potential customers available. I have found that over the years as the jobs have fallen away slightly ( their is only so much furniture a client can squeeze into their house) i have had to branch out into carpentry, joinery and property maintenance to bring in enough money to pay the bills. Luckily i have no mortgage, but still being the only breadwinner with a family of 4 its been a struggle. The days of having a 4 month waiting list have gone, and the constant worry of looking for jobs is stressful, the hours are long as when i have finished on site after tea i will be in the workshop for several hours, the workshop is 100M from the house and the nearest neighbour is 1/4 mile away so late night noise is no problem, but deadlines have to be met and bills have to be payed so have no choice. Would i change it, probably not, who wants a regular pay packet with payed holidays and sick pay and weekends off mmmm sounds nice.


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## No skills (13 Oct 2013)

I have found this thread quite interesting. As somebody that wants/needs a change of job and has been considering cabinetmaking as a future I couldn't imagine just trying to walk into it nearly blindly after quiting a job far far removed from it :shock: 

Getting a work space/tooling/experience and just building a business is a fairly huge undertaking, if I ever got to the point where I could just work part time somewhere and run the business to make my income I would honestly think I had done very well. Just running a business as my sole income just seems so unlikely.

I might soon be forced to walk out of the job I have currently so perhaps I'll end up stacking shelves at Tesco, at least I'll have time to think about it


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## Dangermouse (13 Oct 2013)

As has been said, first get some training, that's a MUST if you have done little or no cabinet work before. It can cost a fortune if you go for new professional grade tools, so go second-hand / vintage, plenty about and a lot cheaper than new and dare I say most are better made and will last longer. You will need some machinery, you cant do all of it by hand, its the old thing " time is money" and unless your the best cabinet maker in the world and people will wait six months for a tea tray, you will have to do a job in relatively quick time. also it usually takes at least a couple of years for a business to be established and making money, so you might have to have a part time job for a while. you do need to advertise and get known, if you make the best things in the country they will be worthless unless people know they can buy them from you, a website is a good start. even if your being as tight as with money as I am, ( LOL ) you will need a few thousand to get up and running, so think where will this come from, savings or to be borrowed and repayments factored in. You can make money, not a fortune, but you have to be pragmatic and don't look on being a cabinet maker as some Shangri-La where everything is smelling of roses, it ain't. Also you say you will be using your garage, so if you do use some machinery, make sure your electrics are up to the job and you will have to keep the people next door on side, so that means keeping the noise down and you will have to check if you need planning permission for change of use and you might have to pay business rates. that is if you tell the council..........


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## Steve Jones (14 Oct 2013)

20+ years ago I did City and Guilds in Handmade furniture, also Timber preparation and passed them both. 

Although I'm now self employed I work in the gardening industry, doing a course at college wont necessarily get you into the line of work you want to do. The problems I had trying to get into woodworking after college were that nearly all companies in this locality wanted a 'time served' person rather than a 'straight out of college' person.

My advice whatever you decide to do is think about it wisely, being self employed is not all a bed of roses and there have been many occasions when I'd have preferred a guaranteed pay cheque at the end of the week.

Steve


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## riclepp (14 Oct 2013)

For my two pennyworth.
I have a job I hate and detest, but it pays the bills and allows me to buy the tools I need and training. Yes, I too wish to become a cabinet Maker like my father before me (he was time served). The biggest issue as mentioned numerous times above, is getting noticed by potential customers! I have now made several peices of furniture for my home and have added to a facebook page and seperate website. I do not at this point in tme wish to advertise in the local free press (even though I have to pay ....free press?) Although I don't mind this delay, I am finding getting the necessary experience a problem, as there is only so much you can do initially, before you need help and advice from and experienced and well versed cabinet maker (you try and offer your time for free to other cabinet makers, they just laugh at you, been there, done that!!). Most course that I have seen are as stated before are in Devon!!!! Although if you have the cash and ability to travel, then it isn't a problem... Depends on who it is with you are looking on avarage around 14k for a long course and this dose not include, rent, food, books, travel and tools (so more like £25k). For some people that is a full years wage, but as they say got to speculate to accumilate. Business plans are essential to any business, if you don't know who to do one go to the tax office or bank they will help. 

I have had a business that I closed as customers were wanting the training but didn't or delayed payment, which affected my business's ability to function. It is hard, very hard to get where you want, but with determination it is possible, that is if you want to succed with your plans. Mine will, but softly, softly catchy monkey way. So Mani, give it a go you have nothing to lose and if all fails at least you can say you tried and no-one can ever take that away from you.


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## Peter Sefton (14 Oct 2013)

There are a couple of courses in Devon but not for £14,000 as far as I am aware but look further afield and that fee is available, there are several private schools and some more bench rental type workshops around the country. Some of us make running a craft based business a substantial part of the training. You can be the best maker in the world but without any customers and a profit margin your days will be numbered. Short courses may be available at local colleges but not many still exist which is very sad. The state colleges are no longer very interested in furniture making as they are expensive courses to run and much better funding can be gained from Auto CAD and other courses with less health and safety issues.


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## n0legs (15 Oct 2013)

:idea:


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## SteveB43 (15 Oct 2013)

+1 for what n0legs said, start small, build up a portfolio, yes maybe give some stuff away as Jacob says, (visibility and presence) and build up a customer base,even a few 'clients' if you're lucky...
sometimes it's necessity that is the driver, in MickCheeses' case, is it not bigger and tougher hammers to keep them creepycrawlies at bay ?? (hammer) 
speaking of creepycrawlies, anyone's workshop had one of these little visitors?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ea...-false-widow-spiders-spreading-across-UK.html

also +1 for cashflow, I think that's the main reason business will fail in the first year..


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## Dangermouse (17 Oct 2013)

So after all the media hype we find that the spider is as dangerous as a bee sting. :---)


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## nanscombe (17 Oct 2013)

In other words it can kill you if you have an allergic reaction ... just like a bee sting.

Given the numbers of children with allergies it's potentially as dangerous as peanuts.

What now, for sale signs with "WARNING - This house may contain spiders" on it.


According to the Natural History Museum, false widow spider



> The bite of the false widow spider *can be medically significant* in humans, but *usually without any long-lasting effects*.


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## mailee (19 Oct 2013)

Uh? have I missed something here? All of the previous posts have been about starting a cabinet making business and suddenly it changes to spiders?? I think we have crossed posts here! :?


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## nanscombe (19 Oct 2013)

SteveB43":2ap6funp said:


> +1 for what n0legs said, start small, build up a portfolio, yes maybe give some stuff away as Jacob says, (visibility and presence) and build up a customer base,even a few 'clients' if you're lucky...
> sometimes it's necessity that is the driver, in MickCheeses' case, is it not bigger and tougher hammers to keep them creepycrawlies at bay ?? (hammer)
> *speaking of creepycrawlies, anyone's workshop had one of these little visitors*?
> 
> ...



The words "Creepycrawlies" and "workshop" in the same sentence. Not crossed posts just a bit scope creep.


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## No skills (19 Oct 2013)

SteveB43":2n9gkdy9 said:


> speaking of creepycrawlies, anyone's workshop had one of these little visitors?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ea...-false-widow-spiders-spreading-across-UK.html




They come in shipping containers once in a blue moon, some times they survive the poison bags (or whatever they use now) that are used.

Saw a few one summer when I was a teenager working in a container yard, funnel webs as well - scary looking pippers when they pop out their holes/webs - they never survived the winter though.

See a gecko once as well, think somebody took it home.

Fun times.


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