# Sharpening chisels/planes



## damo8604 (30 Jul 2015)

I was watching Paul Sellers' youtube videos last night on sharpening chisels and planes.

Admittedly it's not something I was ever good at and as I'd never been taught, I realized I'd been doing it all wrong (thank goodness for youtube eh?)

I used to use a Stanley honing guide on a sharpening stone smothered in oil, it was very messy, I carved a groove into my stone and to top it all off, my chisels (although pretty poor quality B&Q jobbies) never seemed to be as sharp as they were fresh out of the packet. So I was surprised to hear him saying the chisels (even brand new) needed work immediately to become sharp.

Secondly, I noticed he didn't use a honing guide..... is this normal? does it matter if you don't have a precise 25 or 30 degree angle?

I'm looking forward to purchasing some decent chisels but I almost baulked when I saw the price, as much as I'm willing to spend on a table saw??

Are there any brands I should look at getting bearing in mind I'm an (extremely) amateur hobby woodworker who is perhaps at skill level 1 (maybe 2). I'm looking at trying different joints (the non-illegal variety) so I know I should ideally get a set of dovetail chisels, mortice chisels and then my everyday 'normal' chisels.

I'm looking forward to learning to plane stuff too, I have a Stanley No4 (never used and still in the packaging) that I bought maybe 15 years ago, I never got around to using it and I bought a ferm power plane when I discovered Screwfix and destroyed a door I was trying to fit  it now has a funny little curve on one end and horrible breakout (patched with wood filler) the other end.

I wish this forum and youtube was available 10 years ago, I'd have saved myself soooooo much money


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## Jacob (30 Jul 2015)

damo8604":3kiipz8c said:


> ...
> Secondly, I noticed he didn't use a honing guide..... is this normal? does it matter if you don't have a precise 25 or 30 degree angle?


Perfectly normal. Faster and easier. Angle not critical. Honing guides are a feature of the burgeoning amateur and DIY market and were not used at all in the glory days of woodworking.

Any old (or new) chisels will do. They are simple objects. It's nicer to have "nice" ones but they won't improve your woodwork.


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## Bod (30 Jul 2015)

Get an "Eclipse" type honing guide, much easier to use than the Stanley type.
Getting the right angle is all about practise, the guide will give you a consistent angle, when you have that fixed in muscle memory, then a guide may not be necessary. Some like me use them constantly, others never do.
Learn to use what you have, then replace what you use with better, as required.

Bod


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## jim_hanna (30 Jul 2015)

While I have nothing but respect for professionals who can sharpen freehand it's not for me and I would suggest not for you either if you can't get B&Q chisels as sharp as when purchased.

There is a huge amount, possibly too much for a beginner, of information about sharpening online. I would suggest you search for a technique called scary sharp, buy a few sheets of wet and dry paper out of Halfords and use these stuck to a piece of glass with your honing guide. This will get you a reasonably sharp edge without much skill or effort and you then have something to gauge against if you decide to use another technique.

Regards

Jim


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## John15 (30 Jul 2015)

Try Ebay for some decent second-hand chisels. I got most of mine that way. Old Marples or Stanley are good and not much money. Make sure the handles are sound and the blades are decent, but expect to do some sharpening.

John


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## custard (30 Jul 2015)

The problem with looking for sharpening solutions on the internet is a lot of people are a bit evangelical about the topic, indeed for some people the hobby of "sharpening" has taken over from the hobby of "woodworking"! So you'll get loaded with conflicting advice while impassioned devotees of the one true way try and recruit you into their sharpening tribe. It gets worse because what's actually best _for you_ is influenced by what woods and other materials you use, what you make, what tools you have, what grinding options are open to you, whether you're site based or bench based, what space is available, and what your budget is. None of which the sharpenistas are remotely interested in finding out.

Personally I'm not that agitated about sharpening, "whatever" would be my conclusion. I've seen outstanding craftsmen use many different methods, which suggests there's probably more than one way to skin a cat! 

If you're coming down to my workshop I can show you scary sharp, oil stones, diamond stones, and water stones. You can have a go on each, you can try freehand and with honing guides, you can try them with factory issue "thin" Stanley plane blades and with 5mm thick cryogenically treated A2 plane blades. You can think about the implication for skewed blades, in-cannel and out-cannel gouges, tiny blades, huge blades, and any other tools that you may need to sharpen. 

And after you've done all that you can go away and make up your own mind about what's likely to work best for you!


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## Mr_P (30 Jul 2015)

jim_hanna":1nf3fy48 said:


> While I have nothing but respect for professionals who can sharpen freehand it's not for me and I would suggest not for you either if you can't get B&Q chisels as sharp as when purchased.
> 
> There is a huge amount, possibly too much for a beginner, of information about sharpening online. I would suggest you search for a technique called scary sharp, buy a few sheets of wet and dry paper out of Halfords and use these stuck to a piece of glass with your honing guide. This will get you a reasonably sharp edge without much skill or effort and you then have something to gauge against if you decide to use another technique.
> 
> ...



Will that work ?
Isn't scary sharp sandpaper better quality/more expensive than normal sandpaper ?

I have a 1 metre float glass for plane sole fettling and had a cunning plan recently when trying to de-skew a plane iron so tried it with my eclipse 36 honing guide. Maybe it was my cheap sandpaper but it just shredded it.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Jul 2015)

If you see Aldi chisels on offer (£8) grab them. They are better than some three or four times the price. Watch the markets and car boots - I've never paid more than £4 for a Ward.


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## G S Haydon (30 Jul 2015)

Sadly there is little wisdom to offer. All systems work, all have their price along with pros and cons. Pick what you fancy or whichever system a mentor might recommend and practice .


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## Carl P (30 Jul 2015)

Hi,

Have to say I agree entirely with GS - all the methods work, main thing that helped me was practicing on chisels that were good enough to use but not so expensive that I was worried about wrecking them in the process - secondhand/car boot chisels can be good for practice, if they are not too badly abused by a previous owner. When I decided to sharpen freehand I found having an eclipse jig very handy to check how far in/out I was. Also if you don't know how sharp it _can_ be, use an eclipse type jig. I used scary sharp method for a while, it was a revelation, and easily repeatable if slow, now I use oilstones and I find I can get the same sharpness. And of course ask as many questions on here as you can, then we all get to learn something!

Cheerio,

Carl


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## xy mosian (30 Jul 2015)

G S Haydon":2ks2u9vd said:


> Pick what you fancy or whichever system a mentor might recommend and practice .



GS, I think you have got it in one there. 

Many on-line instructions, very good though they may be, do not attempt to describe what to do, or even identify, if problems occurr. A mentor who can be shown a problem visually is more likely to be able to help than one who is described a problem by someone who may not know the commonly used terminology. 

Custard has made a wonderful offer there, my advice would be to grab it with both hands. The best of learning in one to one.

xy


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## damo8604 (30 Jul 2015)

xy mosian":pm1kfc37 said:


> Custard has made a wonderful offer there, my advice would be to grab it with both hands. The best of learning in one to one.
> 
> xy


Haha, I have already taken him up, you can't beat one on one


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## jim_hanna (30 Jul 2015)

Mr_P":3aylz41r said:


> jim_hanna":3aylz41r said:
> 
> 
> > While I have nothing but respect for professionals who can sharpen freehand it's not for me and I would suggest not for you either if you can't get B&Q chisels as sharp as when purchased.
> ...



What I would call sandpaper is the two sheets on the left below, the sort of thing you would use on paint or wood. For sharpening you need wet and dry, much finer. Can't remember the price but it's not that expensive and you can get packets of mixed grits. The 2500 grit will put a mirror shine on metal.

Jim


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## richarddownunder (31 Jul 2015)

custard":2pxn96p4 said:


> The problem with looking for sharpening solutions on the internet is a lot of people are a bit evangelical about the topic, indeed for some people the hobby of "sharpening" has taken over from the hobby of "woodworking"! So you'll get loaded with conflicting advice while impassioned devotees of the one true way try and recruit you into their sharpening tribe. It gets worse because what's actually best _for you_ is influenced by what woods and other materials you use, what you make, what tools you have, what grinding options are open to you, whether you're site based or bench based, what space is available, and what your budget is. None of which the sharpenistas are remotely interested in finding out.
> 
> Personally I'm not that agitated about sharpening, "whatever" would be my conclusion. I've seen outstanding craftsmen use many different methods, which suggests there's probably more than one way to skin a cat!
> 
> ...



Amen. 

I use a diamond stone followed by a fine water stone but there are plenty of methods. I still use a honing guide after many years and find it very quick, I get the same angle each time and it means it only takes a dozen swipes on each surface and a tickle up on the back and its back to razor sharp. But I'd take up the kind offer of a go with a few different approaches and see what you like.

Tools are a minefield for advice. If you can get decent second hand with lots of metal remaining, they are fine. I bought some new Ashley Iles a while back and love using them. I probably only use 2 or 3 sizes predominantly so you don't need dozens either. I'd prefer to have a few good ones I enjoy using than a bunch of cheapies that don't hold an edge. But that's just me.

Cheers
Richard


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## DTR (31 Jul 2015)

To be fair to your B&Q chisels, I bought a set of Homebase chisels as a temporary measure five years ago.... They're still going strong now, and I still haven't got round to putting my vintage chisels back into use.


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## JohnCee (31 Jul 2015)

Jacob":2ophch1b said:


> damo8604":2ophch1b said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> > Honing guides are a feature of the burgeoning amateur and DIY market and were not used at all in the glory days of woodworking.



This is tommyrot.
My grandad was a time served, professional joiner for 50 years and he always used a honing guide.


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## Rhossydd (31 Jul 2015)

JohnCee":1nlc5vny said:


> This is tommyrot.
> My grandad was a time served, professional joiner for 50 years and he always used a honing guide.


You need to remember that Jacob's "glory days of woodworking" was before mass manufacture.
Helpful sharpening jigs have been available since mass manufacture of tools in the 19th century http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/jigarch.html so Jacob calling them a 'new fashion' says a lot.


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## clauskeller (31 Jul 2015)

I can strongly recommend: Just try it like Paul Sellers shows! You can't do wrong and will get good results after a short learning curve. I did and sharpen freehand since.

Claus


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## AndyNC (31 Jul 2015)

I've bought a few secondhand planes and it's easy to tell the hand sharpened ones: the cutting edge is not square.

I know this is not 100% proof but I always use a honing guide, it takes bit longer but you don't accumulate any errors of not sharpening it square. 
Eventually you run out of lateral adjustment in the plane.
I use a eclipse with a wooden gauge to slide against to get the angle consistent.

My thoughts anyway.

Cheers

Andy


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## CStanford (31 Jul 2015)

The obvious pitfall of logic to avoid is the assumption that every old tool one comes across was used by a Jedi woodworking master. 

The kit of a bona fide master, assuming there was much steel left on the chisels and cutting irons in the first place, likely ended up in the hands of a business partner, apprentice, craftsman/friend, etc. where what was left was entirely used up. The stuff that washes up on the beach now is usually of very uncertain origin and in a condition that indicates the last owner or two were far from expert hand craftsmen. Yet, we often impute into their condition some 'secret' of 'how it was done,' etc. when they are mostly shining examples of how things should not be done/how a tool should not be set up and maintained.

I've left intact the belly of a few old belly-backed chisels (now long gone) and except for a very limited set of circumstances where pivoting off the hump is helpful a plain, flat and polished back seems to work best for general bench use. And this is congruent with virtually every old woodworking manual I've ever read that states plainly, and explicity, 'lay the cutter FLAT on the stone when backing off the burr' 'do not let a bevel creep into the back' or words to that effect.


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## xy mosian (31 Jul 2015)

damo8604":331w8vqf said:


> xy mosian":331w8vqf said:
> 
> 
> > Custard has made a wonderful offer there, my advice would be to grab it with both hands. The best of learning in one to one.
> ...



Well done that man, in fact well done both of you.
xy


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## richarddownunder (4 Aug 2015)

AndyNC":1ivsjjpc said:


> I've bought a few secondhand planes and it's easy to tell the hand sharpened ones: the cutting edge is not square.
> 
> I know this is not 100% proof but I always use a honing guide, it takes bit longer but you don't accumulate any errors of not sharpening it square.
> Eventually you run out of lateral adjustment in the plane.
> ...



I'd go along with this. As for it taking longer, its only matter of seconds to clamp the blade in a honing guide and you remove an absolute minimal of metal as its always the same angle and I suspect, for most of us, that'd also result in less trips to the grinding wheel to true things up.

Cheers
Richard


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## xy mosian (4 Aug 2015)

AndyNC":reb9zyl4 said:


> I use a eclipse with a wooden gauge to slide against to get the angle consistent.
> Andy



I use an eclipse clone, blue thing.
For plane irons, OK! only 2".
For 25 degrees the offset is 50mm, width of the cap/back iron.
For 30 degrees the offset is scribed on the cap/back iron.

I loose useful pieces of wood.

xy


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## Eric The Viking (13 Aug 2015)

Three things on Scary Sharp:

1. I think it's brilliant. I used to use a Norton double-sided oilstone (for thirty years!!!), and never got good results. The first time I tried SS I could dry shave with the plane iron, and the learning curve wasn't there - I just followed the instructions carefully. And you can still put a camber on a plane iron with a guide - I like the Eclipse sort (much copied) best of all, but it's not suitable for everything, notably useless for skewed blades of any type. I have an aluminium Axminster guide for those, on which I've marked skew angles, which makes it easy and fast to set up.

2. A big reason for 'suddenly' getting good results was that I was properly flattening the backs of everything I sharpened, probably for the first time ever. I hadn't realised how crucial it is. Backs need to be VERY flat and VERY smooth at the edge (doesn't matter much further back). It's a rarely-needed task, but it does have to be done carefully. I think the need for a flat back is the biggest inhibitor to getting old edge tools working well - rust pits the surface and destroys the edge-forming ability, and you have to flatten past the deepest pits near the edge (which takes bloomin' ages). I've got two glass plates now. The smaller one will be dedicated to back-flattening, by having the paper stuck down around the edges.

3. Quality of wet+dry paper varies enormously. I got some from Toolstation a while back as it was cheap (or so I thought!) and I was in a hurry. Waste of money - buy cheap, buy twice - it won't stay flat! I buy mostly from Axminster now as (a) they keep finer grades (to 2500 grit), and (b) it's Hermes - good quality stuff. I also use a strong magnet in a thick polythene bag to clean the paper and glass plate between uses.

3a. Work in a good light and get a really good and powerful hand lens. I use an old 50mm SLR camera lens (back to front!), which is about perfect for the job. Keep a cheap filter on the front and the back lens cap, park it upside down and it should stay clean, even if pelted with sawdust. Being able to properly see what I'm doing helped enormously, and above all allows you to see exactly when to change to a finer grit (although you can feel this after a bit of practice).

So, yes, with Scary Sharp you can just grab the stuff and get really good results -- I did! But you must follow the process properly and the cheapest Wet+Dry will probably disappoint. 

E.


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## CStanford (13 Aug 2015)

I left scary sharp and jigs a fairly long while ago and sometimes wonder why I did. There's a lot to be said for dry sharpening in terms of convenience day in and day out. One can't argue with the edges that come off 3M 2,500 and finer grit paper. The backs are blinding, and flat too and most importantly with hardly any effort at all except for the most neglected examples. Maybe it's time for a trip back to the glass shop.


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## damo8604 (13 Aug 2015)

I bought a granite chopping board in place of a glass sheet but I was surprised it wasn't 100% flat :-(


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## CStanford (13 Aug 2015)

It doesn't need to be over its entire surface but only over an area relevant for the sharpening movement. A chopping board is likely a pretty big thing. The area you need for sharpening is probably a good bit smaller than the board. Don't throw it out without reassessing.


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## Eric The Viking (13 Aug 2015)

Plate glass offcuts from glaziers?

Actually, one of mine is the thick glass they used to put in front of TV screens to improve the contrast (and later block x-rays from early colour sets), and the other is the remains of some bathroom scales. Both cost nothing.


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## Zeddedhed (13 Aug 2015)

My local glazing firm sold me a mahoosive piece of float glass (very flat) 500 x 300 x thick for about a tenner. Polished edges too.


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## mouppe (14 Aug 2015)

I sharpen most things freehand but I also have the Veritas honing guide from my earlier learning days. They've recently introduced a narrow blade honing guide which I'm considering because there are a couple of blades (such as shoulder planes and the LN95) where it is key to sharpen the bevel square, and the new guide would help achieve that. 

Has anyone here tried the new guide and can recommend it or not?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 Aug 2015)

You will not be disappointed with the small blade holder for the Veritas Honing Guide. Used especially with the wide wheel, it works faultlessly. Simple to set up and grips blades like a bulldog.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## mouppe (14 Aug 2015)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> You will not be disappointed with the small blade holder for the Veritas Honing Guide. Used especially with the wide wheel, it works faultlessly. Simple to set up and grips blades like a bulldog.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



Thanks Derek, by "wide wheel" I assume you mean the standard roller? 

I have just ordered the narrow blade attachment, but Lee Valley did warn me over the phone that shoulder plane blades did not work in the guide. They have such excellent service that sending back an unwanted item is completely hassle-free so I'm going to try the guide out, and send it back if it doesn't work. 

Also, they have a gift card special going on, where you can get $250 cards for $219, or $500 cards for $430 etc.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (14 Aug 2015)

I purchased the small blade guide as I was curious (since I freehand all my blades except BU planes), and already had the wide, non-cambered wheel that came with the guide originally. This will cut down on the cost if you have one. 

The guide is designed for bevel edge chisels. The sides of the blade jaws are angled, and this clamps down on bevel sided blades. Although I have not tried honing square sided plane blades, I am confident that you will have no difficulty. I have used it to hone mortice chisels.

Regards from Perth 

Derek


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## mouppe (14 Aug 2015)

Derek, thanks that's good info and much appreciated although there is nowhere in the lee valley website description that suggests the guide is for beveled edges. I think the shoulder plane blade problem related to the "matchstick-shaped" head of the blade and the jaws want to clamp right where the blade width changes. I'll post a comment after I try the guide. 

"For those who predominantly sharpen narrow blades, we offer a narrow-blade honing guide consisting of the narrow-blade clamping head, the standard roller base and the angle registration jig. It clamps blades from 1/8" to 1-1/2" wide using parallel jaws to ensure blades stay square to the jig. Whether they have bevelled or square edges, blades are kept centered and tight to the reference face of the jig by the canted jaws. It accepts beveledged chisels up to 15/32" thick and square-edged chisels up to 11/32" thick, and hones bevel angles from 15° to 40° and back bevels from 10° to 20°.
The standard head uses a clamping bar that registers on the face of the blade. It accepts flat and tapered blades between 1/2" and 2-7/8" wide and up to 15/32" thick, including skew blades. It hones bevel angles from 15° to 54° and back bevels from 10° to 20°.

The narrow-blade head clamps blades from the sides with parallel jaws to ensure they stay square to the jig. The jaws are also canted to keep blades centered and tight to the reference face of the jig, whether they have bevelled or square edges – it will even hold chisels that are triangular in cross section. It accepts blades from 1/8" to 1-1/2" wide, holding bevel-edged chisels up to 15/32" thick and square-edged blades up to 11/32" thick. It hones bevel angles from 15° to 40° and back bevels from 10° to 20°."


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## JonnyW (14 Aug 2015)

Christ I wish I could nip along Custard's workshop for a bit of tuition!

When I started my apprenticeship in 1989, I can categorically tell you that not enough time was dedicated to sharpening of tools - the theory - the principles - different methods - and techniques etc etc. It was just glanced over for the 'more important' stuff like joints, door and window making, truss construction blah blah. If it wasn't for the old boat builder I worked with for years who built violins, mandolins and guitars in his spare time, i would've spent my apprenticeship and time served time, gouging wood with horrifically dull tools. 

He taught me the basics and some pretty useful stuff that I still use today. However he was old school, and I'll never forget the day I turned up to work having bought the first ever (at that time at that workplace) honing guide. After he finally stopped pissing himself laughing and stopped calling me the biggest vagina he'd ever met - and after a while watching me use the honing guide, he finally thought it might be a good idea. 

I used a stop guide to set the correct angles. Just a piece of block board with pieces of wood set to the correct length when the blade was in the honing guide. They are all over YouTube and the net. It's a really cheap way of setting your primary and secondary honing angles using really cheap honing guides. No need to wade in and buy a Veritas MK2 if that kinda money is out of your price range at this time. 

And let me tell you about sharpening - go on the net or on forums and you will receive a thousand different opinions and a thousand different methods of sharpening tools - so good luck. But they all follow similar principles of mirror flat back and front. The two sides that meet to form the edge should be mirror flat (I think!!). 

I've owned and used site tool bag chisels and I own and have used chisels that shouldn't lie in the bottom of a tool bag and they are all good if sharpened properly. I recently bough Ashley Iles' bevel edged chisels and they are sublime. Take very little 'setting up'. But they are pricey as is the Lie Nielsen chisels I own - but they are out of this world. 

I also own four Narex firmer chisels and four of their butt chisels. Love the butt chisels; good quality and feel really good in your hands. The firmer chisels feel quite cheap and the brass plated ferrules on some looked worn or tarnished when I got them, but they sharpened up lovely. 

So have a look at the Narex. Excellent price and I'd say good quality. Fettle up nice. 

Jonny


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## mouppe (19 Aug 2015)

Follow-up:-

The narrow blade head arrived yesterday and I tried it today with a 3/4" shoulder plane blade and a variety of narrow bevel-edged and mortise chisels. It worked perfectly with all of them, even the 1/8" chisel. 

Because it clamps from the side instead of above and below, it ensures the blade is sharpened square to its edges. This was not always the case with the standard head as narrow blades could slip out of square. 

So for those people who use the veritas honing guide, I would recommend picking up this new head.


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## Kalimna (19 Aug 2015)

Damn. I have the Mk II guide, and just received an order from Axminster. Does this mean I need to break out Mr Mastercard again??? I do have a couple of narrow chisels, and a shoulder plane, so I may find it useful.

Thanks for the reviews,
Adam S


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## mouppe (19 Aug 2015)

Kalimna":1fj9q0m0 said:


> Damn. I have the Mk II guide, and just received an order from Axminster. Does this mean I need to break out Mr Mastercard again??? I do have a couple of narrow chisels, and a shoulder plane, so I may find it useful.
> 
> Thanks for the reviews,
> Adam S



I am putting a little review of the guide on youtube. if you search for 'Veritas narrow blade honing guide" it should be uploaded shortly.


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## Kalimna (20 Aug 2015)

Thanks for the YouTube review - I shall look it up.

Cheers,
Adam


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## Jacob (28 Aug 2015)

Rhossydd":xg9hr9tz said:


> JohnCee":xg9hr9tz said:
> 
> 
> > This is tommyrot.
> ...


Your grandad was unusual.
They've always been about either as accessories for amateurs (the "Gentleman Woodworker") or various gadgets for pro sharpeners and tool makers but the mass of woodworkers pro or amateur did not use them, for two reasons; 1st because they aren't necessary (any fool can learn to sharpen freehand even school kids did it in woodwork class) 2nd because you have to buy them. 
Simple evidence - old ones are extremely rare, whereas old oil stones, chisels etc are extremely common.
Nobody used them when I started (school woodwork 1955 ish and then as DIYer, building worker and general bodger) and not when I did a pro course (1982 ish) but they were just coming into fashion then - in fact I bought one myself. It took quite a few years for me to realise that it was easier (and a bloody sight cheaper!) without.
Sharpening became "a problem" in the 80s basically because there were more newcomers with more cash and there was more opportunity to sell them stuff they didn't really need.
The fashion for water stones came a bit later and the latest pointless fashion; for flattening and polishing faces (but calling them "backs" :lol: ); is even more recent.


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## D_W (29 Aug 2015)

If you guys are having trouble learning to hone freehand, start with a single washita stone and a bare leather strop. Let the stone break in from use. I know you guys have a ton of washita stones (real washita, not "turkey stones" or other soft arkansas stones), because I see them for sale over there, and holzapffel says they took over there.

I can't think of anything other than carving tools where I'm wanting anything more than that edge. That includes smoothing planes and moulding planes, and for practical purposes, paring chisels, too.

Freehand sharpening is easier with one stone than it is with two or three....and stropping is better with bare leather than it is with compound loaded leather. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa0pBnph9q8


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## Jacob (29 Aug 2015)

D_W":3arv8x1a said:


> If you guys are having trouble learning to hone freehand, start with a single washita stone and a bare leather strop. Let the stone break in from use. I know you guys have a ton of washita stones (real washita, not "turkey stones" or other soft arkansas stones), because I see them for sale over there, and holzapffel says they took over there.
> 
> I can't think of anything other than carving tools where I'm wanting anything more than that edge. That includes smoothing planes and moulding planes, and for practical purposes, paring chisels, too.
> 
> ...


Yep that's the way to do it. As done by millions of woodworkers around the world for thousands of years with no problem at all.
Why did sharpening start getting difficult in the 80s?


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## lurker (29 Aug 2015)

Nice to see you back Jacob. You are continuing flogging a dead horse here as many think they can buy their way around developing skills.
I got on that bandwagon but quickly realised you are pretty much correct albeit a bit extreme.


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## blackrodd (29 Aug 2015)

lurker":3ng87k95 said:


> Nice to see you back Jacob. You are continuing flogging a dead horse here as many think they can buy their way around developing skills.
> I got on that bandwagon but quickly realised you are pretty much correct albeit a bit extreme.




Very well put, Mr Lurker, "Buy their way around developing skills"
Rodders


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Aug 2015)

blackrodd":24hds7js said:


> lurker":24hds7js said:
> 
> 
> > Nice to see you back Jacob. You are continuing flogging a dead horse here as many think they can buy their way around developing skills.
> ...



I think that we should post a rule that states categorically that anyone owning a honing guide should be flogged. And anyone with a handtool that costs more than 50p should be castrated! Woodworking should not be fun. Anyone who has fun at woodworking is not manly! :lol: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## MIGNAL (29 Aug 2015)

Back to sharpening. 
What exactly is a Washita stone? I have a Smiths stone that was sold as being an 'Arkansas', I bought it many years ago. Originally it was Grey/white in colour. I do know that it's quite slow cutting, very much in the polishing category.


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## Droogs (29 Aug 2015)

Derek,
Would that be chemical or physical. if physical maybe by their own blades?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 Aug 2015)

Droogs, this is a sharpening thread ... so, what would you use, a chisel or a plane blade, and how would you prepare for the "unkindest cut of all"? And if all you had left was a slightly hollowed oilstone, would you flatten it first, or just use it as is?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Droogs (29 Aug 2015)

old school me. Use as is, but then I've sharpened chisels on marble wall tiles before and then slice and dice with the most in appropriately sized chisel I could find


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## D_W (29 Aug 2015)

MIGNAL":1rrcoojc said:


> Back to sharpening.
> What exactly is a Washita stone? I have a Smiths stone that was sold as being an 'Arkansas', I bought it many years ago. Originally it was Grey/white in colour. I do know that it's quite slow cutting, very much in the polishing category.



It's a type of novaculite stone. It's often described as a grade of arkansas stones, but arkansas stones and washitas are slightly different types of stones and not just different by grading. Washitas all come from one mine or mine complex, and it's closed (but still full of suitable rock - norton owns it, and it's the same mine(s) as the old stones that say "pike" came from). Washitas are more of a matrix with pores, and arkansas stones are more of an agglomeration of particles. 

Washita stones make a very good stone to use if you're only going to use one, but soft arkansas stones don't work quite as finely. In the 1800s, soft arkansas stones were sold as a lower cost alternative to washitas. 

Smiths and others label a lot of stones that are soft arkansas stones as washitas, gray and white suggests a soft arkansas. They can cut quite fine if left alone, but not quite as nicely as a washita. I started using a washita only as a novelty and then it became a matter of being more practical than diamond hones, waterstones, etc (it's faster as long as you can grind accurately, and the steels you use are compatible with novaculite)


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## D_W (29 Aug 2015)

Jacob":2dowg072 said:


> D_W":2dowg072 said:
> 
> 
> > If you guys are having trouble learning to hone freehand, start with a single washita stone and a bare leather strop. Let the stone break in from use. I know you guys have a ton of washita stones (real washita, not "turkey stones" or other soft arkansas stones), because I see them for sale over there, and holzapffel says they took over there.
> ...



That's when the whole first japanese tool wave started and the influx of hobbyists came in, right?

Paint by number is nice when you're a beginner if nobody is around to teach you anything, I guess. I liked it at the outset, but eventually it becomes a nuisance to waste time putting things in jigs and troubling over angles and such when you can do it practically subconsciously.


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## CStanford (29 Aug 2015)

The only known Novaculite deposits suitable for sharpening stones are in the Ouachita Mountains, not far from Hot Springs, Arkansas. Novaculite deposits are located by prospectors who search for leads in outcroppings on the side walls of cliffs and mountains. A lead may run in any direction: horizontally, obliquely or vertically. In following it, there is no way to foretell what quantity or quality of rock will be encountered. When a vein is struck, which is apparently suitable, it is generally a solid mass of extremely hard and brittle rock with no natural lines of cleavage. Quarrying involves blasting with black powder. Because of its brittle nature, light charges must be used. Quarried stone is cut with diamond saws and shaped into many forms using hand and mechanical production procedures.

I spent more weekends than I can count (in my younger days) water skiing at Lake Hamilton near Hot Springs. It's a beautiful place. The whole area is.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lake+ha ... 36&bih=545


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## Random Orbital Bob (31 Aug 2015)

Modedit: This thread has been cleaned up and restored. The individual responsible for the personally insulting behaviour that derailed it has been banned. We all know sharpening illicits strong feelings as we each defend our own beliefs about whats right and wrong but please lets keep the responses measured and not aimed at the individuals.


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## Benchwayze (31 Aug 2015)

Since I developed arthritis in my thumb joints, the only thing I use sandpaper for these days is opening the lids of hermetically sealed pickle and jam jars. 8) 

I don't think I am ready to start sharpening my tools on wet and dry just yet. Maybe when I've worn out my waterstones.


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## Rhossydd (31 Aug 2015)

Benchwayze":3os6y3dk said:


> Since I developed arthritis in my thumb joints, the only thing I use sandpaper for these days is opening the lids of hermtically sealed pickle and jam jars. 8)
> I don't think I am ready to start sharpening my tools on wet and dry just yet.


The sophisticated 'abrasive paper' approach is the Sorby Pro Edge which would be brilliant for someone with arthritis I suspect. No repetitive pressure needed, just easy great edges.

Even Jacob bought one. Although he hates to be reminded that the adjustable tool rest is really just a modern jig to make sharpening easier ;-)


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## Benchwayze (31 Aug 2015)

Ross, 

You might well have something there, but for the moment, I grit my teeth and continue to sharpen 'freehand'. I don't fancy a channel along the middle of my stones. I can just about manage to apply enough pressure as yet, but I think there's a time coming when I might have to find another solution.


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## Sawyer (31 Aug 2015)

custard":funtm4iz said:


> The problem with looking for sharpening solutions on the internet is a lot of people are a bit evangelical about the topic, indeed for some people the hobby of "sharpening" has taken over from the hobby of "woodworking"! So you'll get loaded with conflicting advice while impassioned devotees of the one true way try and recruit you into their sharpening tribe. It gets worse because what's actually best _for you_ is influenced by what woods and other materials you use, what you make, what tools you have, what grinding options are open to you, whether you're site based or bench based, what space is available, and what your budget is. None of which the sharpenistas are remotely interested in finding out.
> 
> Personally I'm not that agitated about sharpening, "whatever" would be my conclusion. I've seen outstanding craftsmen use many different methods, which suggests there's probably more than one way to skin a cat!



Welcome Damo; you will find that Custard is right: but on UKW, you start a sharpening thread at your peril! The good news though, is that with a bit of practice, freehand sharpening is pretty easy and inexpensive, which is why it's the only method I've ever used. Go ahead and try the other techniques too and do whatever suits you. The main thing is to get things sufficiently (but not obsessively) sharp and then enjoy yourself cutting wood instead of abrading metal.


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## richarddownunder (2 Sep 2015)

Over the past year I have been somewhat distracted from woodwork by the hobby of knife making. Professional (and I'm sure many non-pro) knife-makers often free-hand grind their knives using a linisher and, using the touch that comes with day-to-day familiarity, they grind symmetrical flat blades. If I had started off that way, I'd probably have a pile of mis-shapen knives in a scrap bin. Instead, I plane a wooden block to about 4 degrees and screw my knives to this jig. That way I know I can reliably get the correct angle on each side and the end result is pretty good. Even if I mastered free-hand grinding today, next time I made a knife, in a few weeks time, I'd probably stuff it up. Some makers may be precious about their skill to hold a knife to a linisher and think free-hand is the only REAL way, I don't care, I just want a nice end result. Of course, some others use a CNC milling machine which must be an unspeakable evil - they probably don't even get burned, cut and dirty hands! :twisted: 

Thought I'd mention that as I don't feel there is any shame in using a jig if the results are better. For someone with woodwork as a part-time hobby I need all the help I can get and if I get better results using a honing guide then so be it. If I sharpened planes and chisels every day, then I'd probably find it worthwhile to develop free hand sharpening skills to speed things up. As it is, a few extra seconds with a honing guide is of no consequense as I'm not in a rush. I suspect there are many others in the same boat.

Cheers
Richard


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## Woodmatt (8 May 2016)

Having read all of what has been written here and elsewhere on this subject, which honing guide would members choose between the Veritas MK 11 and the Eclipse 36 and why.Thanks


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## Woody2Shoes (8 May 2016)

Hi - I have both, my 2d's worth:

Eclipse (and clones) wins on price and is quicker to set up (if you create a simple length/angle-setting jig to go with it) - it sometimes needs a bit of fettling with a file or two to get a blade to sit tight/flat/square in the jaws.

Veritas is perhaps better than Eclipse on narrow blades (if you get the extra accessory) and the micro-bevel "switch" feature on the roller(s) is really handy - you can also do skewed blades if you're feeling brave.

Both work fine for most chisels and plane irons.

Cheers, W2S

PS I Googled "novaculite" and found that "Washita" probably is an alternative spelling of Ouachita meaning "big bison"(!):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouachita_Mountains 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouachita_orogeny


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## David C (8 May 2016)

For chisels and square edge plane blades, with or without camber, the Eclipse type is best.

If used carefully you won't get a groove in your stone.

David


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## ED65 (9 May 2016)

Woodmatt":rsyykfrv said:


> Having read all of what has been written here and elsewhere on this subject, which honing guide would members choose between the Veritas MK 11 and the Eclipse 36 and why.Thanks


Neither or both. This is a good read if you've not seen it before, Understanding Honing Guides from Popular Woodworking written by Christopher Schwarz, but I'd particularly draw your attention to the page tacked on the end by Joel Moskowitz on why you don't need a guide 

If you do want a jig I'd actually encourage you to build one, might cost you 50p in materials and I promise you you'll have a jig more capable than the Eclipse and probably as good as the hugely overpriced Veritas.


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## Woody2Shoes (9 May 2016)

ED65":2zvyuan8 said:


> Woodmatt":2zvyuan8 said:
> 
> 
> > Having read all of what has been written here and elsewhere on this subject, which honing guide would members choose between the Veritas MK 11 and the Eclipse 36 and why.Thanks
> ...



I completely understand Moskowitz's point. As someone with quite a bit of the learning curve still ahead of me(!), I find a jig most useful in getting the primary bevel (if not also any secondary bevel) edge at 90 degrees to the length of the blade - e.g. for shoulder plane irons and the like. Once I've got the cutting edge properly square, I'm happy enough to do a bit of freehand honing as the blade dulls thereafter - until the edge starts looking wonky and then I go back to the jig to square things up!

I've made a wooden jig out of scrap for sharpening curved gouges etc. which works fine - again, most useful if squaring up a wonky edge. Cheers, W2S


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## bugbear (9 May 2016)

Woody2Shoes":1hz9lhlc said:


> I completely understand Moskowitz's point.



His opinion seems a little circular - if people aren't getting as good results from hand sharpening as jigs, he says it's either bad technique or lack of practise. That's such a general assertion, it carries little information.

Consider replacing "hand sharpening" with "unicycle riding".

Clearly better technique, or more practice will improve your unicycle riding, and one day your unicycle riding might be excellent, but getting a bicycle might be the more practical way forward.

BugBear


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## Woodmatt (9 May 2016)

Thanks for your thought ED65 and for the link,as you say interesting reading.I also went to the link suggested by Joel Moskowitz 

http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html


The method/technique for sharpening suggested there is completely different to what I was taught some 40 years ago so I will give that method a go before I spend money on a guide.

The next question is do member consider Water Stones to be better that India Stones?


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## CStanford (9 May 2016)

If one parses what sharp truly is then it is possible, logically, to conclude that it is not really achievable and therefore woodworking itself would be a waste of time.

In retrospect I think the best edges I've ever achieved were with a jig and very fine grit sandpaper on glass - just blisteringly sharp. The speed lost in setting the cutter in the jig is recouped by the cutting speed afforded by the abrasive sheets. The only problem with all of this of course are the tools that cannot be conveniently jigged. You have to learn freehand honing anyway and then once learned one tends to use it for everything.

It's a matter of inevitability I guess.


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## Jacob (9 May 2016)

Woodmatt":2v3vnedb said:


> Thanks for your thought ED65 and for the link,as you say interesting reading.I also went to the link suggested by Joel Moskowitz
> 
> http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html
> 
> ...


Norton India stones are cheaper, work well and last much longer than water stones. 
Jigs don't work on less than flat surfaces which probably accounts for the popularity of water stones with jig users - they are softer and flatten easily, which is no advantage for freehanders.


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## Corneel (9 May 2016)

bugbear":3h11ngn2 said:


> Woody2Shoes":3h11ngn2 said:
> 
> 
> > I completely understand Moskowitz's point.
> ...



You clearly didn't understand the message: freehand sharpening is easy! When people do it the wrong way or when they don't persevere a bit through the initial learning curve, yes then it becomes a problem.

My daughter was good with unicycling when she was a kid. It took her several days though to get the hang of it. Stuborn perseverance, nothing else. But unicycling is a lot harder then freehand sharpening.


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## Corneel (9 May 2016)

The benefits of freehand sharpening:

It's quicker, especially chisels. So you are less inclined to continue working with blunt tools.
You can sharpen every tool. And there are a lot of tools that don't fit any honing guide.
You don't hollow your stones nearly as quickly.
You don't need absolutely flat stones (I haven't flattened my oilstones yet in two years of use).
So you save yourself all those stone flattening sessions.
You can use smaller or narrower stones which are a lot cheaper.
You save yourself the usual troubles that jigs tend to give all kinds of users.
You save yourself a little bit of money not buying the jigs.

The easiest tools to freehand sharpen are the chisels and the planeblade, especially the chisels. When you rely on a jig to do the easy ones, then you face a much bigger challenge as soon as you need something that doen't fit a jig. Something like a gouge, or and axe, or a routerplane blade or whatever.


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## Racers (9 May 2016)

Corneel,

Not everybody can sharpen freehand I have a dyspraxic son and a wife with a benign hand tremor who would really struggle.

I will have to put you on my ignore list if you insist that its easy, thats just not fair everybody, no one likes to be made to feel stupid if they can't do something that most other people can do, thats discrimanation.

Pete


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## Woody2Shoes (9 May 2016)

I'm afraid I assumed the use of a flat "stone" of some sort. I guess a dished stone helps if you want a camber. I sharpen my scythe blade (without a jig) with a piece of red house-brick! Cheers, W2S


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## D_W (9 May 2016)

Racers":1r3gdjjb said:


> Corneel,
> 
> Not everybody can sharpen freehand I have a dyspraxic son and a wife with a benign hand tremor who would really struggle.
> 
> ...



Pete, in wrestling terms, is this a work or a shoot?

We all get things differently. I do think freehand sharpening is easily attainable to everyone, but in the words of the guy who popularized the Bear bow video series, perfect practice makes perfect. 

If the method doesn't come to you, even a video may not show it, but were you to end up in my shop for a few minutes, I think I could make it attainable. 

That's excluding people who have physical difficulties that would prevent them from being able to do it in terms of dexterity.


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## D_W (9 May 2016)

Woody2Shoes":1cm49x50 said:


> I'm afraid I assumed the use of a flat "stone" of some sort. I guess a dished stone helps if you want a camber. I sharpen my scythe blade (without a jig) with a piece of red house-brick! Cheers, W2S



You can sharpen a flat object with an out of flat stone, and in doing so correctly, slowly work the out of flat stone back to flat. Literally the only issue with an out of flat stone is that the abrasive contact points may be small and the abrasive can cut more deeply. 

I bought two stones last Tuesday. One came from the dollar store here, it was literally a dollar. I tried it out and was surprised to see that its abrasive power was quite strong. I won't say what the other stone was. 

At any rate, I already know the answer as to whether or not the dollar stone (which is probably not that flat) can be useful in a sharpening cycle because I know it cuts strongly. I tested it out in combination only with Dursol polish (similar to autosol) on MDF and then stropped it and eventually hung a hair on the edge and severed it. 

It is the method (the freehand method) that makes this attainable, but more than just the freehand method, the idea of not trying to get stones or abrasives to do unnecessary work. Let the grinder do the bulk, and the work on the stones is fairly minimal. 

Initial flattening can be done with sandpaper on glass - it's better at high removal rates than stones are, anyway.


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## Racers (9 May 2016)

D_W":3gwjvmf3 said:


> Racers":3gwjvmf3 said:
> 
> 
> > Corneel,
> ...



I don't understand your wrestling analogy.

The problem is that not everybody is able bodied or disabled there are shades, me I am slightly dispraxic my hand eye cordination isn't the best, I am very dislexic, sequences, remembering numbers etc are very hard.

So I find it unbeleavble that people put so much importance on freehand sharpening, why not critisize prople who can't walk, "look I can do it easly"

Pete


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## D_W (9 May 2016)

In my terms, you'd say "it's a shoot". 

I would love it if the whole world could simplify talking about situations in pro wrestling terms, but I am very far from seeing that happen. Right now, kees is no-selling your reply. 

You do what you can do at the bench, sharpening, or whatever it may be. What's probably going to come up for a lot of folks is the thought that freehand sharpening is ultimately much easier than most woodworking operations - that is where I think it's a matter of method, though developing the touch and making it a long-term memory thing.

I share some of your sentiment about differences - it is almost impossible for me to remember names in the short term, sequences, lists of wants from my wife, almost anything, and parts of my executive functions don't seem to work at all (planning ,working memory, etc). 

I know kees fairly well from his online conquests (how's that kees?..."conquests!!"), and I also know that he's a much nicer person than me and I'm sure he didn't intend anything personal.


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## Corneel (9 May 2016)

Of course Pete, being disabled changes everything. I should have include that caveat. My comments were with healthy people in mind.

But you would be surprised what you can do with some disabilities. I am stottering quite badly, doesn't keep me from talking a lot ;-) The guy who runs Old Street Tools, making some of the best wooden handplanes on the world with mostly handtools, has a severe tremour in one of his arms. He freehand sharpens too and advocates it. I don't write this to bully you, more like an encouragment to try all things that are difficult for you. Everybody has his limits, it is always fun to push them a little.


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## Corneel (9 May 2016)

D_W":1kwf3zye said:


> I know kees fairly well from his online conquests (how's that kees?..."conquests!!"), and I also know that he's a much nicer person than me and I'm sure he didn't intend anything personal.



Ha, I on't conqueer anything! Most things I try are overwhelming for me too.


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## lurker (9 May 2016)

Corneel":2jtk5str said:


> Of course Pete, being disabled changes everything. I should have include that caveat. My comments were with healthy people in mind.
> 
> But you would be surprised what you can do with some disabilities. I am stottering quite badly, doesn't keep me from talking a lot ;-) The guy who runs Old Street Tools, making some of the best wooden handplanes on the world with mostly handtools, has a severe tremour in one of his arms. He freehand sharpens too and advocates it. I don't write this to bully you, more like an encouragment to try all things that are difficult for you. Everybody has his limits, it is always fun to push them a little.



You can see from the stuff Pete "knocks out" he needs no encouragement to push himself.
His hand skills are quite remarkable and I was unaware he had hand eye coordination problems until today.

Folks can we just accept some people are ok with free hand and others like other ways


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## Corneel (9 May 2016)

Let me be clear. I have absolutely nothing whatsover against anyone using what he deems himself usefull in his own shop!

This is a discussion forum though. A place to exchange ideas and to use arguments to convince someone else about something. I think I posted some very good arguments in favor of freehand sharpening. Do with it whatever you like.

When you are a woodworking teacher, then things are a little more subtle. I think you owe it to your students to learn the very usefull skill of freehand sharpening. It's one of these once in a lifetime oportunities for them to learn it, to get over their own trepidation regarding freehand sharpening. It's of course easier to shove a jig in their hands and get on with the project at hand.


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## D_W (9 May 2016)

Corneel":2sc4r95e said:


> Let me be clear. I have absolutely nothing whatsover against anyone using what he deems himself usefull in his own shop!
> 
> This is a discussion forum though. A place to exchange ideas and to use arguments to convince someone else about something. I think I posted some very good arguments in favor of freehand sharpening. Do with it whatever you like.
> 
> When you are a woodworking teacher, then things are a little more subtle. I think you owe it to your students to learn the very usefull skill of freehand sharpening. It's one of these once in a lifetime oportunities for them to learn it, to get over their own trepidation regarding freehand sharpening. It's of course easier to shove a jig in their hands and get on with the project at hand.



Agree...and it gets those students right up to sharpening everything they can find that has an edge and is large enough to be held in hand. Knives, scissors, gouges, moulding plane irons, ...

...kitchen gadget blades, fruit peelers, turning tools, etc...some care with those things, especially peelers if there will be kids using them, but they work a treat when they're sharpened whereas a too-sharp knife can cut too deep peeling things on the quick.


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## Jacob (9 May 2016)

When I first rediscovered freehand sharpening some years back (having been tempted down the jig route for a number of frustrating years) I was so pleased I sharpened absolutely everything I could lay my hands on; 100 or more items including dragging out boxes of old chisels and planes never to be used. Didn't take long!
I still keep finding them - many of them unused, neglected but still surprisingly sharp!


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## Jacob (9 May 2016)

Racers":1xzerfu4 said:


> ..
> So I find it unbeleavble that people put so much importance on freehand sharpening, why not critisize prople who can't walk, "look I can do it easly"
> 
> Pete


OK some people have a real problem; we sympathise and yes freehand sharpening isn't "important" . 
But for those who aren't disabled it IS easier. That includes poor eyesight - freehand can be done entirely by feel - in fact it probably helps.
My criticism is towards the army of people telling everybody it's really difficult unless you buy masses of kit, videos, go on courses etc etc. They are all snake oil salesmen. I was caught out too! It only became "difficult" in the 80s or thereabouts. Before that virtually nobody bothered with jigs and nobody had much of a problem. Bit of a learning curve of course.


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## ED65 (9 May 2016)

Woodmatt":2ddfhiia said:


> http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html
> 
> The method/technique for sharpening suggested there is completely different to what I was taught some 40 years ago so I will give that method a go before I spend money on a guide.


One thing I love about that is that the author stresses that just a very narrow strip at the very end of the back actually needs to be flat when many sources (too many) these days put such an emphasis on flattening a great swath of the back of a chisel, or even the entire back.

I'm not a fan of the sharpening technique described however. It works but I find it far too hard on the finger joints of my left hand so I think it's best suited to people who work more with their hands than the average sedentary guy. And no offence to the ladies, but most women too.



Woodmatt":2ddfhiia said:


> The next question is do member consider Water Stones to be better that India Stones?


Oh God, introduce one of the other most controversial topics in sharpening why don't you? :lol: No waterstones are not better, although many users will claim otherwise (sometimes with good cause, but it's not as simple as they're making out). Of course they do work and work well, just as all of the other alternatives do in the right hands. What to pick is very much a matter of what you prefer in terms of how they work and whether you like watery mess or oily mess or dry mess. And we shouldn't discount the 'romance' of the materials, we chose a lot of our kit that way.

Also it is worth repeating that this doesn't have to be an exclusive choice, you can use a mixture of sharpening media if you like. I have one waterstone, a handful of oilstones and some diamond plates and use all of them depending on what I'm doing and the mood I'm in.


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## Woodmatt (9 May 2016)

I thought this video was quite helpful for those who haven't seen it before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JHc37GC_jo


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## David C (9 May 2016)

I suspect the successful freehanders are in a rather vocal minority.

A simple Eclipse type guide ensures accuracy and repeatability from the start. 

These are extremely desirable qualities which actually increase efficiency.

These are the unpalatable facts ...........

best wishes,
David


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## Jacob (9 May 2016)

David C":ace75p43 said:


> I suspect the successful freehanders are in a rather vocal minority.
> 
> A simple Eclipse type guide ensures accuracy and repeatability from the start.
> 
> ...


Doing it freehand is accurate and repeatable too. 

I suppose we are in a vocal minority in the current world of amateur woodworking, but only 30 or so years ago we were the majority - nobody used jigs - nobody had a problem (beyond the short but necessary learning curve) and it was quicker, cheaper, etc etc.


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## Corneel (9 May 2016)

A simple Eclipse guide will sharpen your gouges, handaxe, marking knife, drawknife, scissors, routerplane iron etc, very well of course. :lol:


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## Jacob (9 May 2016)

I've still got several jigs in a drawer but have never used or felt the slightest need for them - since I got back to basics.
The best of them was the early Stanley for plane blades only, with a little ruler for bevel angles, which Dave mentioned in a recent post. It worked fine but anybody using it would quickly realise that they could do it even better without.
Later models got increasingly complicated, expensive and useless. The Kell jig was a new low in uselessness. Topped by the Lee nelson - equally clumsy and useless but much more expensive. 
Somebody somewhere will be working on the ultimate jig which will be unbelievably useless and astronomically expensive. :lol:


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## D_W (9 May 2016)

David C":hcwtnewx said:


> I suspect the successful freehanders are in a rather vocal minority.
> 
> A simple Eclipse type guide ensures accuracy and repeatability from the start.
> 
> ...



It doesn't take a skilled user less time to sharpen with a jig, and there is no functional difference in sharpness nor accuracy. 

A beginner who transitions to freehand may not believe that one week in, but woodworking online is one of the few places I've seen where popular opinion of the less or unskilled is stated as fact. 

Certainly, you can find someone bad at sharpening freehand, but the same type would be asking 3 years after starting how they should keep an iron square in a jig.


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## Jacob (9 May 2016)

Anyway Dave why not get in with the zeitgeist? Videos and courses on freehand sharpening with just one or two stones, for life? They'd be queuing round the block!
If you can't beat 'em join 'em!


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## D_W (9 May 2016)

I want to encourage people to make their own planes, show them how to make excellent ones, maintain the cap iron and sharpen the iron freehand using the cap iron as a guide for the work, and I don't want any pay for it. Is that about the same?

Every time I see posts about expensive over-engineered narrow chisel jigs or skew iron jigs my eyes just about cross. You can tell what direction an iron needs to be ground or honed from skew and narrow planes just by looking down the sole of the plane when the iron is in it, and you can look at the iron with the cap iron strapped on and tell whether or not you need to remove a little more from the left or the right.


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## iNewbie (9 May 2016)

Jacob":31k01clk said:


> *My criticism is towards the army of people telling everybody* it's really difficult unless you buy masses of kit, videos, go on courses etc etc. They are all snake oil salesmen. I was caught out too! It only became "difficult" in the 80s or thereabouts. Before that virtually nobody bothered with jigs and nobody had much of a problem. Bit of a learning curve of course.



What Army? -talk about let your imagination run-a-skew...


You got caught out, we "get it",............... ad nauseum... :mrgreen: 


Next it'll be people who use a Jig are lepers. Oh, wait...


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## D_W (9 May 2016)

I'll indulge us in this a little longer, though I'd really like to talk more about planes.

Bit, every year, someone comes out with something more complicated than just taking an iron to a grinder and then rubbing the end of it on some stones.

The last one was paul sellers and the ezelaps and scads of people had to do just what he did. And then a bunch of them said they quit that and went to a different system.

But the people who just grind their irons and then rub the ends on stones rarely drop that and go to another method.

It costs almost nothing unless you splurge on the grinder and stones, and that splurging gains you very little.


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## swagman (10 May 2016)

HOME CARPENTRY; John Barnard; 1940 publication. 

*Method of Sharpening Tools on Oil-Stone.* - _The great difficulty which the amateur will experience in setting a tool on the oil-stone lies in keeping the bevel at the same angle with the stone throughout the operation. As he moves the tool backwards and forwards along the stone, he is apt to give it a different inclination when close to him than when at a greater distance, the angle at which the tool is inclined being greater when in the former position than the latter. In order to counteract this variation of angle it is evident that the tendency to be aimed at is the raising of the hand slightly as the tool moves further from the person instead of allowing it to take different angles of inclination during its movement over the stone. The elbows should be squared, the hands and arms should have freedom. The tool should be grasped with the right hand so that the first finger only is held above. The fingers of the left hand should lie together and straight upon the upper side , their tips fairly near the edge of the tool, the thumb being underneath. The tool will thus be held firmly and well under control. _

*Mechanical Aids in Sharpening Tools. * - _The amateur should not be disheartened if, for some time, he should fail to obtain a sharply defined bevel, and a good cutting edge upon his chisels and plane-irons. Although the sharpening of edge-tools is generally acknowledged to be a difficult matter for beginners there is no reason why the proper method should not be acquired. _

_If however, in spite of carefully following the instruction given above, after some practice he is still unable to obtain satisfactory results he may desire rather than send his tools to a professional man, to obtain one of the excellent contrivances which have of late years been introduced to help him in this respect. These appliances are designed to hold chisels and plane irons whilst they are being sharpened either on the oil-stone or grindstone. When the tool is put into the holder and brought to the right bevel with the adjustment screw it is a simple matter to bear it on the stone and by moving it forwards and backwards to obtain a perfectly uniform bevel and a keen edge. This appliance is sold at a very moderate price, but the amateur, with the exercise of a little ingenuity, should have no difficulty in making of hard wood or similar appliance which will serve its purpose quite well until he has learned to manage without its assistance. _

Caveat; Whether one chooses to freehand sharpen or rely on a honing guide is a matter of personal choice. For the vast number of woodworkers who are restricted to the weekend only to refine their woodwork skills, the shorter learning curb needed to master a honing jig, compared to that of freehand sharpening, does make the honing jig alternative a much more practical solution..


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## David C (10 May 2016)

Swagman,

Thank you, I enjoyed that.

I will now return to sharpening my pattern makers in cannel gouges..........

David


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## Jacob (10 May 2016)

swagman":pa6he90m said:


> ........ _but the amateur, with the exercise of a little ingenuity, should have no difficulty in making of hard wood or similar appliance which will serve its purpose quite well until he has learned to manage without its assistance_.........


I think that is possibly good advice. By all means experiment around the problem - all part of the familiarisation process. But don't be exclusive - if you use a jig also have a go freehand every now and then - it only gets better/easier, until one day you suddenly find the jig is redundant.


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## Paddy Roxburgh (10 May 2016)

FWIW here's my experience. Many years ago I wanted to get better at using hand tools (I had been a real machine junkie) and realised that sharp tools were vital. I found that I did not get a good edge freehand and bought a jig. Suddenly my tools were sharp and I was paring and planing like a good un. After a while I tried freehand and found I could now get a good edge. I don't know exactly what the difference was, had the training wheels trained me? had I just got better with my hands? Dunno. I still use the jig for tools that have higher angles, like the 50 degree blade for my block plane and the 35 degree angle on my mortise chisels, but for my bench plane and chisels just go freehand.
Paddy


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## Phil Pascoe (10 May 2016)

That's an interesting observation. Maybe the jig acts like training wheels on a bike? After a little while your wrist would tend to go that position? I've never used a jig, I don't know. 40 some odd years of using a chainsaw and I've never used any sort of jig or gauge sharpening a chain - I suppose you just get used to doing these things, not thinking about them.


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## Peter Sefton (10 May 2016)

Paddy Roxburgh":kvgg0etp said:


> FWIW here's my experience. Many years ago I wanted to get better at using hand tools (I had been a real machine junkie) and realised that sharp tools were vital. I found that I did not get a good edge freehand and bought a jig. Suddenly my tools were sharp and I was paring and planing like a good un. After a while I tried freehand and found I could now get a good edge. I don't know exactly what the difference was, had the training wheels trained me? had I just got better with my hands? Dunno. I still use the jig for tools that have higher angles, like the 50 degree blade for my block plane and the 35 degree angle on my mortise chisels, but for my bench plane and chisels just go freehand.
> Paddy



Sounds like a very sensible solution and you are right learning to sharpen at 30 degrees is one thing mastering 35, 38 and 50 is more tricky. 

Jacob is correct jigs would not have been used in the old days but six year apprenticeships would have been. We now have a very active DIY woodworking community who enjoy weekend woodworking and without sharp tools they will struggle, why not use jigs to help and train your hands and eyes. 

I show my students how to sharpen by hand and how to use jigs, most decide to continue using jigs, they are not banned from the workshop! Also most of them arrive in cars in the morning not many on a horse and cart, not sure why the moved on  

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (10 May 2016)

Peter Sefton":1i2wbrgx said:


> ...
> 
> Sounds like a very sensible solution and you are right learning to sharpen at 30 degrees is one thing mastering 35, 38 and 50 is more tricky. ....


Tricky if you want the precise angle - but nobody actually needs this. 
"Mastering" doesn't come into it. Any fool can do it it doesn't take 6 years. 20 minutes more like.
in the real world; 50 would be "a bit more than 45", 35 ditto 30, 38 ditto 35. 25 is a bit less than 30. That's how freehand sharpening works - and it does work. .


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## ED65 (10 May 2016)

Pardon another tangent gents.



Paddy Roxburgh":349azcmv said:


> the 50 degree blade for my block plane


50°??


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## bugbear (10 May 2016)

I note that Jacob has strong opinions on how beginners should be taught, but that people who _actually teach_ beginners have different opinions.

It appears that Jacob's opinions are "theoretical".

BugBear


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## Peter Sefton (10 May 2016)

ED65":32mhqa4l said:


> Pardon another tangent gents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A 50 degrees sharpened blade in a 12 degrees low angle block gives an effective cutting angle of 62 degrees, great for interlocked or difficult grain. I like to use a low angle blade 38 grind with just the sharpening angle at 50, make life much easier when sharpening.

Cheers Peter


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## iNewbie (10 May 2016)

Jacob":328ic7x0 said:


> Peter Sefton":328ic7x0 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



And this 20 minute knowledge came after you couldn't freehand for years and bought some Jigs?

Previous post: "When I first rediscovered freehand sharpening some years back (having been tempted down the jig route for a number of frustrating years) I was so pleased I sharpened absolutely everything I could lay my hands on; 100 or more items including dragging out boxes of old chisels and planes never to be used. Didn't take long!
I still keep finding them - many of them unused, neglected but still surprisingly sharp!"


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## ED65 (10 May 2016)

To be fair though BB, there are many theoreticals in sharpening. 

Waterstone users sharpening to 8k, 10k, even 12k and above, invariably talk about how good their edges are, how much _better_ they are, but as many here know that's mostly theoretical (or to put it another way, irrelevant).


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## Eric The Viking (10 May 2016)

I'd love to sharpen freehand but I can't - trust me, you really wouldn't want my hands these days. 

They used to be straight and normal, now they're not. It took me ten years or so to get used to the deformity, and I still often smash crockery (the wife is very patient). When you get arthritis, it's not just the joint damage, but your brain expects the fingers to move in a certain way... and they don't/won't. You have to re-learn where your fingers actually are, and even that changes over time.

I was never very good at sharpening freehand as a youngster, but then I was never properly taught and the materials - good quality stones etc., weren't available to me.

So I use my own variant of scary sharp and jigs, but it's for two reasons: firstly it helps when you can't grip easily or fumble - you don't wreck an edge you've been working. Secondly, I'm still learning, and jigs let me change a little at a time. Freehand there are simply too many variables for me to learn where I'm going wrong. Maybe it would be different if I had an expert looking over my shoulder, but I don't.

And I don't find scary sharp slow or expensive. When the alternative risks screwing up and having to start again, I'm happy to spend a couple of seconds fitting a chisel into an Eclipse jig, and then touching it up to a properly sharp edge.

Using a jig doesn't make me a better sharpener. It makes me an efficient one. 

FWIW, I also have a wet grindstone of the Tormek style. Once in a blue moon I have managed to get a plane iron or chisel dry-shaving sharp from it, but I'm blowed if I know how I did it. I've read-up on the things, watched the videos, bought the grading stones, etc. And the cure-all complex jigs for tricky things (most of which simply don't deliver - more fool me!). I know how to use the leather honing wheel side, too. But sometimes it all works and sometimes it doesn't and, crucially, I can't get it to be consistent. 

Waste of money? Not really, because it's handy and quick for getting a good basic shape to a tool, but I find that is its best use. And I can use it for restoring things like kitchen knives when the edge has been wrecked through misuse (and being cheap steel, usually!).

Scary sharp isn't complicated. It's really simple - flat surface, go down through the grits using a jig. Anyone can do it, AND get really good results first-go.

I have to say, I've looked at some of the posh jigs, Veritas notably. Neat ideas, but a hundred quid's worth*? Honestly???

The eclipse does it for me 95% of the time. There a couple of weird cases - skewed blades for side rebate planes and gouges, for example, where it can't ever work, and others (heavy mortice chisels), where things won't fit reliably, but otherwise it's wonderful, even for cambered blades. Not having a linisher, I struggle with doing gouges, and those I do indeed attempt freehand. But they're nothing like as sharp as they probably could be.

With due deference to both David C. and Peter S., if 'twere me, I'd teach scary sharp first**. This is simply because the student then learns what a suitably sharp edge actually is, and that they really can do it for themselves. That boosted my confidence enormously. And I now know what I'm looking for when I experiment with other methods.

Everyone's mileage, etc.

E.

*by the time you've got all the options/accessories, essential add-ons, etc.
** the may well do that - I don't know.


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## bugbear (10 May 2016)

Eric The Viking":2xb4vj29 said:


> With due deference to both David C. and Peter S., if 'twere me, I'd teach scary sharp first**. This is simply because the student then learns what a suitably sharp edge actually is, and that they really can do it for themselves. That boosted my confidence enormously. And I now know what I'm looking for when I experiment with other methods.



Agreed - in principle - but as long as long as a decent sequence of particle sizes is available, be they diamond, SiC paper, oil stones or waterstones, the abrasive doesn't really matter.

Of course, for a beginner _at home_ SiC paper is by far the cheapest initial means to a suitable sequence of grits; in the workshop of a class, other possibilities might be provided.

BugBear


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## MIGNAL (10 May 2016)

Personally I'd teach the two stone method. Actually one stone and the grinder. Simple, you only have to buy the one stone and you have access to something that will take out serious nicks. I also use the grinder to reform old files into knives and little cutting blades from worn needle files etc. 
Oh and it suits both freehand and jigs too. SIC paper is cheap to start. In the long run it will work out very expensive but obviously depends how much woodworking one actually does. For a professional the paper is an expensive method of sharpening.


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## CStanford (10 May 2016)

David Savage on the whole matter:

http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/bespoke-furniture/

SHARPENING... AGAIN! MERCIFUL HEAVEN!

OK so i'll dip my toe in this murky pool. But only because my buddy on the blog asked me to do it. He says "How do you sharpen Japanese chisels?" Well the answer is really pretty much the same way you sharpen European blades. We begin with getting the back of the blade absolutely flat. We use a one eighty wet and dry abrasive on a dead flat granite surface. Followed by three hundred then one thousand then six thousand grit Japanese water stones. Keeping the Japanese water stones dead flat in this process is absolutely of paramount importance.

THE PREPARATION

Why do we bother getting the back of the blade flat? Well it's to make sure that you have absolute contact with those sharpening stones. The most important part is when you're working is the corner of the blade. That seems to do 90% of all work. Especially when pairing, chopping's another matter. So get that back flat, polished and shiny. If you can hold it away at arms length and see your eyeball a yard away then it is about right. If you can't then something's wrong.

THE GRIND

Next we grind our blades to twenty-five degrees. This is a general all round all purpose grinding angle. Pairing chisels maybe ground slightly lower and chopping blades slightly higher. But this is the general all purpose. Grinding we do on a Tormek water stone, or, if you know what you're doing, on a bench grinder. We don't use slowed down special grinders but we do form the surface of the grindstone with a diamond stone to a slight dome. So that the stone is only cutting one spot. That way by moving the blade across the grindstone we can keep the edge cool. Our grinder is also setup with a workshop made tool rest which just helps us locate the tool and present it cleanly to the grindstone and move it around easily in front of the stone.

HONING THE MICRO BEVEL

The Japanese hone the entire surface and most of the Japanese blades are ground at an angle of thirty degrees. This is too high for Western work and I think honing the whole of that surface is a waste of time. We just hone a micro bevel on the front like we do all our European blades. We hone without honing guides, again, because of speed. I know this is fighting talk but at Rowden we wouldn't employ anybody who has to use a honing guide to sharpen blades.

NO TRAINING WHEELS AT ROWDEN

It's a different matter, however, if you're not doing this work to earn your living, then just don't worry about it, take your time, use what jigs you need and get it right.

Honing we do on a one thousand grit Japanese water stone and then we're just pulling to turn a burr. That burr is then polished off by honing with probably a four thousand or six thousand grit water stone. I doubt if we took it any further at this point for a chisel. Japanese plane irons maybe we take it to a finer grit maybe ten or twelve thousand. But a chisel, four or six thousand seems to be OK. [seems backwards to me, but who am I?]

LITTLE AND OFTEN

The essence of the technique is little and often. We don't worry too much about buying chisels that hold their edge forever because our attitude in this workshop is to, when your concentration breaks after ten or fifteen minutes of detailed work, you raise your eyes from the bench, blink and just walk over to the sharpening bench. [YES! THIS!] Touch up that blade in your hand. The blade never gets blunt. You're always keeping it in that really sharp, keen area. Sharpening in this context takes a minute, minute and a half. Don't begrudge doing it little and often.

Have a great day!

David


Rowden Farm workshops, Shebbear, Devon, EX21 5RE, UNITED KINGDOM


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## iNewbie (10 May 2016)

CStanford":hm0z9j77 said:


> THE GRIND
> 
> Next we grind our blades to twenty-five degrees. This is a general all round all purpose grinding angle. Pairing chisels maybe ground slightly lower and chopping blades slightly higher. But this is the general all purpose. Grinding we do on a Tormek water stone, or, if you know what you're doing, on a bench grinder. We don't use slowed down special grinders but we do form the surface of the grindstone with a diamond stone to a slight dome. So that the stone is only cutting one spot. That way by moving the blade across the grindstone we can keep the edge cool.* Our grinder is also setup with a workshop made tool rest which just helps us locate the tool and present it cleanly to the grindstone and move it around easily in front of the stone.*
> 
> ...



One training wheel then...


This is such a circular argument. The amount of time the "go freehand" crowd spend posting about it they waste -in my eyes- as much time as the crowd who use a jig -in their eyes. :mrgreen:

Whatever works for you.


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

MIGNAL":25pon2cu said:


> Personally I'd teach the two stone method. Actually one stone and the grinder. Simple, you only have to buy the one stone and you have access to something that will take out serious nicks. I also use the grinder to reform old files into knives and little cutting blades from worn needle files etc.
> Oh and it suits both freehand and jigs too. SIC paper is cheap to start. In the long run it will work out very expensive but obviously depends how much woodworking one actually does. For a professional the paper is an expensive method of sharpening.



Washita...easiest way to hone.

Two stones is fine, though. Any more than that suggests that someone is working more metal than they should (or perhaps sticking with tradition like sharpening the entire bevel on japanese tools). 

I only use three stones when I restore a straight razor, and that is FAR more demanding of perfection in scratch removal. 

(but washita and a strop is something I could teach just about anyone, and the stone is impervious to damage and requires extremely little maintenance - wipe it off once in a while, that's it).


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## swagman (10 May 2016)

_ We hone without honing guides, again, because of speed. I know this is fighting talk but at Rowden we wouldn't employ anybody who has to use a honing guide to sharpen blades.

NO TRAINING WHEELS AT ROWDEN_

I am at a loss to understand why someone would purposely choose to include this type of content. 

Stewie;


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## Jacob (10 May 2016)

phil.p":3eoh7av1 said:


> That's an interesting observation. Maybe the jig acts like training wheels on a bike? ....


Could start another hare here - but in fact training wheels for bikes are deprecated - they can have completely the wrong effect and actually de-stabilise the rider. They can make things more difficult. I speak as parent, grandparent of a large mob of cyclists!
Honing jig is strikingly similar!


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## Jacob (10 May 2016)

iNewbie":3hxwgyu1 said:


> .....
> 
> And this 20 minute knowledge came after you couldn't freehand for years and bought some Jigs?


Wrong. 
I could freehand perfectly well - I learnt it at school. But like a lot of people I was seduced by the promise of "progress, new improved levels of precision etc etc only obtainable with a jig". It took some years to realise that this was a delusion and in fact led to a whole rake of other problems. The only advantage being those trim looking precise bevels, which don't of themselves constitute sharpness.


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## Corneel (10 May 2016)

You put small children on a bike with training wheels when you are too lazy yourself to help them learn bicycling. Usually you put them on the bike like that when they are still too young and don't have the motorics yet for sometghing diffcult like that. Then they grow older, their brain works better and suddenly you must get of your butt, run behind them for an afternoon or two and they have the skill wired. The trainings wheels have had no purpose, apart from the entertainment value in the meantime.

It's funny, the discussion is not about technical arguments pro or contra a jig. It is all about feelings, psychology and maybe even politics.


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## iNewbie (10 May 2016)

Jacob":2retwmfz said:


> iNewbie":2retwmfz said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



Perfectly well? Jacob, having read your previous post I find it hard to believe you had your Freehand sharpening down so good. Why follow a Pied Piper when you've got the edge.

*Previous post:* "When I first rediscovered freehand sharpening some years back (having been tempted down the jig route for a number of frustrating years) I was so pleased I sharpened absolutely everything I could lay my hands on; 100 or more items including dragging out boxes of old chisels and planes never to be used. Didn't take long!
I still keep finding them - many of them unused, neglected but still surprisingly sharp.

If you can do one chisel well theres no need to practice on 99 or more...

Corneel. Its all about the humour for me. :wink:


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## Corneel (10 May 2016)

iNewbie":ww87y9vw said:


> Corneel. Its all about the humour for me. :wink:



We can shake hands then.


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## iNewbie (10 May 2016)

/lifts left trouser leg.


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## Jacob (10 May 2016)

iNewbie":ktk16a5j said:


> ... Why follow a Pied Piper when you've got the edge.


Good question - the answer was promises of even greater perfection!


> ......
> If you can do one chisel well theres no need to practice on 99 or more...
> 
> ...


The eureka moment on the road re-discover was noticing the rounded bevels on so many old chisels and plane blades, including the Japanese. It occurred to me that they couldn't all be wrong. 10 minutes later I discovered that they were right! :lol: 
Previously I'd been hung up a bit on the two bevel system, which is a bit finicky as well as being utterly pointless. The rounded bevel isn't that much different - the edge is 30º (or whatever you chose) but the rounded bevel behind dips in a curve instead of being in two distinct parts. This makes it much easier to grind and/or hone - you just dip the handle as you go.
At which point I got over enthusiastic and sharpened everything in sight!


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## lurker (10 May 2016)

This thread is 10 months old and has 119 replies
the last useless 110 just repeating the first useful 8


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

The interesting part of this is finding the text from the 1940s, using it as a defense to not grow out of using guides. If you can't, you can't, and that's what the text says....but it doesn't say..."hey, just use a guide". It suggests that some people find that they can't go without a guide and they need to go back to it or pay someone to sharpen tools for them. 

That's different than suggesting use of a guide. It's suggesting freehand unless you find you can't after making a legitimate effort at it.


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## bugbear (10 May 2016)

Jacob":3oseriz5 said:


> *rounded bevels* on so many old chisels and plane blades, including the *Japanese*.



I've demolished (with actual evidence, not repeated assertions) your claim that the Japanese normally use (and aim for) rounded bevels before.

I'll just link to it, instead of repeating it.

post788026.html?hilit=%20flat%20bevels%20stick#p788026

So please do everybody the small respect of not repeating a demonstrably unsupported claim unless you have new evidence.

BugBear


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## swagman (10 May 2016)

D_W":11ig4i4c said:


> The interesting part of this is finding the text from the 1940s, using it as a defense to not grow out of using guides. If you can't, you can't, and that's what the text says....but it doesn't say..."hey, just use a guide". It suggests that some people find that they can't go without a guide and they need to go back to it or pay someone to sharpen tools for them.
> 
> That's different than suggesting use of a guide. It's suggesting freehand unless you find you can't after making a legitimate effort at it.



Caveat; Whether one chooses to freehand sharpen or rely on a honing guide is a matter of personal choice. For the vast number of woodworkers who are restricted to the weekend only to refine their woodwork skills, the shorter learning curb needed to master a honing jig, compared to that of freehand sharpening, does make the honing jig alternative a much more practical solution..


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## Jacob (10 May 2016)

bugbear":q83eh3bo said:


> Jacob":q83eh3bo said:
> 
> 
> > *rounded bevels* on so many old chisels and plane blades, including the *Japanese*.
> ...


Seen 'em. 
Seen Japanese woodworker using them, here and in Japan. 
Have seen them on woodwork forums where the new owner of an old chisel is moaning about the "incorrect" rounded bevel - as though the previous owner was an silly person. (I think it was woodbloke, can't track it down now).

But the substantive argument for rounded bevels is that they were/are used universally and exclusively by almost everybody using edge tools and sharpening them by hand (as distinct from machine) - except the new sharpeners, who think they know better. :lol:


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

That's not correct. I rarely do more than a few hours per week of woodworking, and usually only on the weekends. 

Jigs and guides are advertised as a way to get to things quicker, and they probably are for initial working, but unless one is really challenged by the method (freehand), they are more cumbersome after a very short period of learning. Two things go hand in hand, one is accurate (and quick) grinding, and the second is honing what's left that the grinder doesn't do. 

I think it does a disservice to people who want to do more than work a smooth plane to get them stuck on guides. It creates ridiculous constrictions when they want to expand (gouges, narrow chisels, skew irons). 

Skew irons and narrow chisels are front and center at this because there is so much fluff on the forums about what guide will do them, and they are a twaddle to sharpen freehand (for different reasons). The sole of a skew plane tells you all you need to know about honing the iron. It takes longer to learn to use the equipment to do those things than it does to learn to do them freehand. Sight the sole, see if the iron is even, if it is, hone it evenly. If it's not, hone a little more on the side that is too proud of the sole. Except that once you learn that simple skill, there really is never part of it that gets very proud of the sole. 

The whole world of vintage tools opens up to you because you don't sit around and worry about whether or not the skew angle is 24 degrees or 29, or "how did someone use this shoulder plane when the iron isn't bedded perfectly square". 

All of those skills are right in the same ball park as basic fitting, but the desire is to teach beginners paint by number for everything instead of teaching them to use their hands and eyes, and teaching them to fit work rather than follow a method blindly.


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## Peter Sefton (10 May 2016)

lurker":1yf0p9vj said:


> This thread is 10 months old and has 119 replies
> the last useless 110 just repeating the first useful 8




What's new? Same old same old. 

Are this is new https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DcjCM_-GDM


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

bugbear":1yyyg5gg said:


> Jacob":1yyyg5gg said:
> 
> 
> > *rounded bevels* on so many old chisels and plane blades, including the *Japanese*.
> ...



Whether they use rounded or flat is inconsistent. I've bought a gaggle of old (japanese) tools that were in use by professionals (and they were sharp) and most do not have a perfectly flat bevel on them unless they are unused and the bevel left from the large-diameter grinding wheel (from manufacture) is still on them. 

I've never gotten a used chisel that had a perfectly flat bevel on it, regardless of what bloggers and youtube video makers do now. 

There's someone with quite a large number of videos on youtube, a guitar maker, and he works the flat bevel - laboriously - for 7 or 8 minutes for each tool he sharpens. But even when he turns the iron over, the bevel is in two facets and he's only working part of the bevel - the top half is relieved at a shallower angle. 

I still sharpen a flat bevel because it looks nicer, but I make a microthin microbevel on the end because it speeds up work by avoiding chipout that will occur if the chisels are left in mid 20s bevel angles - especially if the chisels are used for something heavy. I have had discussions with people in japan who do the same thing, and someone relayed to me that So yamashita does the same thing (despite the fact that he's pretty rigorous sharpening).


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## MIGNAL (10 May 2016)

just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it. 
After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes. 
Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair! 
Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life. 
How hard can it be?


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

MIGNAL":e0oyx50x said:


> just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
> After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes.
> Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair!
> Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life.
> How hard can it be?



100% spot on. Most of the old NOS irons I find have a very long shallow primary bevel on them to facilitate doing just that. Lift the tool off of the primary a little bit and hone only a small area of material, flip the iron to work the back and weaken or remove the wire edge, and done.


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## iNewbie (10 May 2016)

lurker":uj3x8nrt said:


> This thread is 10 months old and has 119 replies
> the last useless 110 just repeating the first useful 8



In woodworking these threads are like 5 loaves and 2 fishes. Its hard too swallow but the trout keep taking it.


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

Guarantee if you put up a thread of some fine work, it will only last a dozen posts or so....


.... unless someone asks about sharpening in it somewhere. Strikes me that on youtube, a lot of the videos of ultra fine work that have been out there for years have relatively few views, but if someone puts up a video about sharpening a chisel with a piece of sandpaper on a brick and says it's for beginners (that's the hook, I guess), it'll get several hundred thousand views and fights will break out in the comments.


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## G S Haydon (10 May 2016)

..........I'm off to find a brick and some sandpaper........ 

Odate mentions rounding bevels on irons or chisels (I think) that are a touch on the brittle side. Kinda pointless trying to attribute one fixed way to an entire nation. I'll admit it's written as common practice, but you'd need to rub shoulders with people who made stuff there to be sure.
UK books mention mainly secondary bevels, not everyone does it though. Again, difference between books and keyboards or working with a variety of skilled people. 

Not sure it's a brick but he uses a concrete block to dress the stones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXWkuVgiRvk alternative to a diamond plate . Love the mortise skills https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjtHE_QZrdU . I really do, places the chisel quickly, direct and practiced movements. However it's not "by the book" which is often the way. People work in different ways. Worth checking out the other vids, quite a confident pace to all of them! Let's rip some tenons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd3dBwg9jWY

By the way I don't endorse any of it, some of it on that channel is lethal! It's just "evidence" of extreme variation of method.


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

Nothing wrong with the concrete block for soft stones, for sure. Probably has silica and alumina in it, and it's got plenty of pores (and I'm sure the form for the side is flat).


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## Jacob (10 May 2016)

G S Haydon":3pjsi12n said:


> ............... Kinda pointless trying to attribute one fixed way to an entire nation. I'll admit it's written as common practice, but you'd need to rub shoulders with people who made stuff there to be sure......


There isn't a fixed way but there are easy ways and difficult ways. 
Producing a flat bevel freehand is more difficult than a relaxed rounded bevel. 
Ergo anybody concerned about sharpness _and_ speed is not going to go the difficult way.
So what you find in the vast majority of edge tools world wide and right back to the stone age is rounded bevels.
There are "perfectionists" who think there are "correct" ways of do things, but unless these things have a real advantage most will tend towards the easy way - if they want to use the tool in a hurry!

And slight cambers are easier and more useful: 







PS Odate is an interesting writer without a doubt but it doesn't do to extrapolate too far from any writer's particular interpretation. 
Many of the odd notions of the "correct" way (DTs at 1/6 and 1/8 for example) are slipped in with the best of intentions but hang around forever, misleading whole generations!


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## Racers (10 May 2016)

MIGNAL":iwgaa708 said:


> just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
> After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes.
> Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair!
> Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life.
> How hard can it be?




Now find some one with a disability and do the same! 

Why does ONE person doing something under supervision make it achievable for everybody?

Such a lot of discrimination on this thread, its unbelievable! 

Pete


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

G S Haydon":2bm4z24p said:


> By the way I don't endorse any of it, some of it on that channel is lethal! It's just "evidence" of extreme variation of method.



Looks like a pro to me, by the way. With chinese influence in how he works (using the side of the hammer, flicking the chips out of the mitered finger joint cut, etc). 

I wish I could make planes with that kind of swiftness.


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

Racers":34jrrcyv said:


> Such a lot of discrimination on this thread, its unbelievable!



Generalized talk becomes difficult when generalizations have to be inclusive of everyone. Or more specifically, if you know your in a small minority, lampooning generalizations as being discriminatory against you either suggests you're looking to be offended, or it's a work. 

You can comfortably be in the minority of people who can't freehand sharpen for legitimate reason _without getting offended_ when someone shoots a barb that is obviously intended for people who physically can.


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## Woodmatt (10 May 2016)

This sharpening lark is opening up a whole new world.When I was a apprentice some 45 years ago I was taught to sharpen by hand,didn't know about jigs then.I had a India combination stone,Coarse/Fine and I am sure I was only taught to use the coarse side,when the burr had be produced it was one stroke on the back of the blade and the rest removed by stroking the blade across the palm of the hand,similar to how a hairdresser used to stroke the cut throat across his strop and that was it,a supposed sharp blade which I now realize was not sharp at least not in the terms being discussed here.

As it is some 35 years since I was able to do any practical woodwork I have recently tried sharpening blades and seem to produce a very unsatisfactory result.So after reading all the post about freehand sharpening just being a matter of practice and before I buy a jig I spent an hour in my workshop today and by the end I have been able to produced a couple of reasonably sharp chisels bearing in mind I still only have the India combination stone (The original from my apprenticeship).Yet to try a plane blade

So now I have a question bearing in mind the micron sizes on the combination stone (coarse 97/fine35) should I get an in-between stone say an Arkanas hard white stone 14 microns and a strop or just go straight to a strop.


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## G S Haydon (10 May 2016)

D_W":nx02wcef said:


> G S Haydon":nx02wcef said:
> 
> 
> > By the way I don't endorse any of it, some of it on that channel is lethal! It's just "evidence" of extreme variation of method.
> ...



Agree, although there is a crazy clip with circular saw blade!!! The dovetail waste chopping is nice and tidy though as are many of the others. They are clearly experienced people.


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

Woodmatt":17pyl73o said:


> This sharpening lark is opening up a whole new world.When I was a apprentice some 45 years ago I was taught to sharpen by hand,didn't know about jigs then.I had a India combination stone,Coarse/Fine and I am sure I was only taught to use the coarse side,when the burr had be produced it was one stroke on the back of the blade and the rest removed by stroking the blade across the palm of the hand,similar to how a hairdresser used to stroke the cut throat across his strop and that was it,a supposed sharp blade which I now realize was not sharp at least not in the terms being discussed here.
> 
> As it is some 35 years since I was able to do any practical woodwork I have recently tried sharpening blades and seem to produce a very unsatisfactory result.So after reading all the post about freehand sharpening just being a matter of practice and before I buy a jig I spent an hour in my workshop today and by the end I have been able to produced a couple of reasonably sharp chisels bearing in mind I still only have the India combination stone (The original from my apprenticeship).Yet to try a plane blade
> 
> So now I have a question bearing in mind the micron sizes on the combination stone (coarse 97/fine35) should I get an in-between stone say an Arkanas hard white stone 14 microns and a strop or just go straight to a strop.



The arkansas stone should be useful. What's sold as "hard white" (but doesn't show translucence) these days is similar to an older soft arkansas. I don't know why the grit charts show them as 14 microns, as there are no oilstones with particles that large, but there is space between particles on all but the translucent and black stones, and that space is what creates the cutting ability. 

If the stone you're thinking of is like I describe (white and fine, but not translucent), then it should be a very good step, and if you let it break in, it will be right on the doorstep of a bright polish - and it will follow an india stone very well.


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## D_W (10 May 2016)

G S Haydon":3gchdn4k said:


> D_W":3gchdn4k said:
> 
> 
> > G S Haydon":3gchdn4k said:
> ...



I'll have to watch some of their videos this evening, I only watched the finger joints and the sawing of the multi-tenon boards. 

My relatives did risky things, and it wasn't uncommon to know several folks who grew up in the depression era who were missing fingers, etc (when I was a kid, they're all dead now), but the next generation was much more safety conscious.


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## MIGNAL (10 May 2016)

Racers":2vmzwkdh said:


> MIGNAL":2vmzwkdh said:
> 
> 
> > just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
> ...



Stop writing sht!
Where did I state that it did? I just related what I did and the outcome of someone who had never done it before. If you don't like the result, tough.


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## Jacob (10 May 2016)

MIGNAL":wi1w7q9h said:


> Racers":wi1w7q9h said:
> 
> 
> > MIGNAL":wi1w7q9h said:
> ...


Well yes. In fact normal freehand sharpening would probably be easier for most disabilities. Less faffing about, fewer things to hold etc.


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## Racers (11 May 2016)

MIGNAL":2bi5ctsf said:


> Racers":2bi5ctsf said:
> 
> 
> > MIGNAL":2bi5ctsf said:
> ...




See the hi-lighted in red bit, for some people its hard.

Pete


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2016)

So? They are perfectly free to ignore my post. Of course I can't cover every single eventuality, I didn't intend to and I perfectly understand that certain conditions may or will necessitate the use of a completely different approach. I haven't got a problem with that. I haven't got a problem with anyone using a guide, that's their free choice. I was just relating how easy it was to teach someone (a rank beginner) to sharpen a blade freehand using the two (or rather one) stone method. If he can do it, I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of folk can. 
I never suggested that the method was compulsory. I'll try the experiment with another rank beginner, his sister. I suspect she will pick it up very fast. As a test I once got her to use a dovetail saw, sawing to a line. It was like she had been using one for years! I later worked out why she seemed so accomplished yet a few of the guys, who were older than her, were so incompetent. Their approach was completely different. Their approach was hard, rigid, lot's of effort. After all, they were sawing wood and in their heads they had decided that it was difficult, something that required lots of effort and sweat. Her approach was soft, careful, relaxed. That might be a lesson on how to teach freehand sharpening, sawing and all manner of other tasks. Hold things overly tight, too tense, rigid and things become so much more difficult. In fact almost impossible in some cases. It's no different to watching anyone who is very accomplished at fine motor tasks, they make it look easy. It is, once you learn the method and the approach.


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## Jacob (11 May 2016)

The main thing is to disregard the endless repetition of the notion that it's difficult. 
It isn't difficult, it's dead easy. 
OK some unfortunates will have a disability prob but that's the case with all/any activities which are really easy for most of us. We recognise this and aren't suggesting they can do things which are self evidently impossible for the few.
But I still think freehand will be easier for many e.g. arthritis sufferers; jigs are a pipper to hold. It's always been a mystery to me why they don't have handles. Such a stupidly obvious omission.


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## Corneel (11 May 2016)

Back when I used a jig I was in fact quite capable to sharpen freehand after I used the grinder. That wasn't ever a problem at all. Grind a hollow, drop the chisel on the stone, resting on the hollow with a slight bias towards the edge and rub it back and forth until you get a wire edge. Despite my attachment to the jig, it never was a problem. What was a problem for me back then was some kind of mental block, ideas about "accuracy" and "repeatability". I just didn't understand how to rehone the chisel without going back to the grinder each time.

Reality, when I finally got my act together, was utterly simple. Do the same, but when the hollow shrinks it takes a bit longer until the wire edge appears. Fine polishing I do the same way but at a slightly higher angle again. It is not an "accurate" method at all. I have no idea what angle my chisels have, somewhere around 30 degrees I guess. Point is, it doesn't matter. "Repeatability" isn't a problem either, the wire edge tells me all I need to know.

I know Jacob uses a different freehand method. More power to you Jacob, but I like to take to the grinder from time to time and take advantage of the hollow.


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## okeydokey (11 May 2016)

I find that one of the diamond DMT Whetstones are really good and easier to use than a traditional oilstone. After that I go to wet and dry on a piece of glass starting about 600 and going higher if you want a real polish, but whether its really much sharper ? after going to a high grit wet and ?


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2016)

The grinder/one stone method is probably the easiest method to use, although I will admit that a hand crank does take some practice. The actual stone takes very little practice. Once you get the method the actual removal of metal is very, very little. That stone can be an 8,000G waterstone, even one as fine as that works. I don't even feel for a wire edge, never have. I just polish it on the 8,000 and then strop. It never fails.


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2016)

okeydokey":5osen62c said:


> I find that one of the diamond DMT Whetstones are really good and easier to use than a traditional oilstone. After that I go to wet and dry on a piece of glass starting about 600 and going higher if you want a real polish, but whether its really much sharper ? after going to a high grit wet and ?



I think you will find the law of diminishing returns sets in. 8,000 and higher probably gets you the ultimate edge. It's not necessary for a lot of work though. Sometimes I use the medium on my diamond stone, which is 600G. Actually it might be 800 or even 1,000G now that it's some 3 years old. The one dislike I have for fine waterstones is pre wetting it (allowing time to soak in) and using the nagura stone. The diamond stone is a bit less fuss free, although I've never had one of the finer diamond stones.


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## swagman (11 May 2016)

While reading the thread started by Corneel india-stone-question-t97703.html I noticed a comment by CC that I think is quite relevant to the current discussion on freehand versus a honing jig. 

_There just isn't a 'right' answer. However, there will be an answer that suits each individual and their particular set of circumstances. Don't let anybody tell you that one way is better than another - it may be for them, but it may not be for you. _


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

Stewie, that may be a feelgood answer, because it seems inclusive and pleasing to all, but I doubt in the days when people did a significant amount of work with hand tools that their methods differed by much, and I doubt there were many people who couldn't learn freehand. Some may have taken longer than others, but they wouldn't have had guides to hide behind.


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## Cheshirechappie (11 May 2016)

D_W":zewug1zh said:


> Stewie, that may be a feelgood answer, because it seems inclusive and pleasing to all, but I doubt in the days when people did a significant amount of work with hand tools that their methods differed by much, and I doubt there were many people who couldn't learn freehand. Some may have taken longer than others, but they wouldn't have had guides to hide behind.



Back in the early 19th century, they didn't have artificial oilstones or jigs. They got on with it using what they had, because that's all they had.

Back in the early 20th century, they didn't have diamond stones or lapping films, and water stones were pretty well unknown in the West. They'd pretty much ditched the Charnley Forests and Turkey stones because man-made Nortons cut faster, and they could use one of a number of polishing stones if they needed a better edge. (See 'The Village Carpenter' by Walter Rose for details of this assertion.)

Now, we have (comparatively) a much wider choice. Small, relatively cheap bench grinders, all manner of honing media from natural and man-made Waterstones, oilstones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, diamond pastes on lapping plates, lapping films and abrasive papers, several types and designs of jig, and heaven knows what else.

There ain't no law saying which of those you have to use. It's up to the individual. You tell us (frequently, and repeatedly) that you like a Ouchita stone used freehand - great! You've got a solution that works for you. I've got my India and my Welsh slate - works for me. But the next person may have a different set of problems, and feel happier with a different answer. That's fine - we have choice - more than woodworkers have ever had before; so let's take advantage of it!


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## CStanford (11 May 2016)

I have a nice selection of stones but what I now end up doing 98% of the time is using a fine India and then a hard rubber 'strop' (really functioning as a very fine stone) with AlOx powder. A less than $40 solution had I not bought the other stones that essentially now go unused. I still have an Eclipse jig that occasionally comes out if a rebate plane iron starts to get a little wonky. I certainly don't worry about ruining a stone that would cost less than $20 to replace if I shopped around.

For freehand honing I haven't found anything faster than this combination. The fine India raises a burr almost immediately, the AlOx charged strop removes the burr and polishes about as fast. You can even do a little 'tip up' on the strop to polish the back right at the edge and not create a discernible back bevel (chisels, plane irons, everything). In any event if one starts to creep in the fast-cutting fine India obliterates it the next time around.


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

Cheshirechappie":k4hbipnz said:


> D_W":k4hbipnz said:
> 
> 
> > Stewie, that may be a feelgood answer, because it seems inclusive and pleasing to all, but I doubt in the days when people did a significant amount of work with hand tools that their methods differed by much, and I doubt there were many people who couldn't learn freehand. Some may have taken longer than others, but they wouldn't have had guides to hide behind.
> ...



Waterstones were common in the west. They were sold as razor hones, and there were attempts by the razor hone manufacturers to sell bench stone sized hones that were very similar to current "ceramic" stones, with an alumina abrasive and a resin binder of some sort. They were mid-grit stones all the way to something similar to a current shapton 1 micron stone. 

Everyone in any industry had easy access to lapidary supply (but generally only used something like that for razors or carving tools) and everyone had access to silicon carbide stones in the early 1900s. 

A lot of silicone carbide stones were sold, not many large razor hone style stones (though some did), but the washita and hard arkansas stones didn't really stop selling until hand tool woodworking was almost completely dead. That's probably about the same time gadgets started coming on the market, because carpenters and amateurs who used hand tools infrequently became the market. India stones and coarse carborundum stones fill in the bottom of the range in terms of grit and speed (arkansas stones don't generally cut fast unless they are roughed up often), and probably gained popularity when people stopped finishing work with planes and card scrapers. 

I doubt anyone on this forum has used more honing media than I have, I'm aware of all of it. I like to fiddle with it, it's entertaining. But it's not productive, and none of the modern media is any significant improvement over india/washita/hard arkansas. If it was, the intention to try to sell the same thing to professionals in the early 1900s wouldn't have fallen flat on its face. It needed a supply of beginners looking try to buy a skill rather than attain it - the professional market couldn't supply that demand. 

Certainly, there's no need to use a washita stone - that's my favorite, and it was in droves when people did work and cared about time, but they're not easy for a beginner to procure and they don't make sense with a guide. It's the method that you use with them that is translatable to other stones.

Out of curiosity last week, I bought a stone for one dollar at the dollar store (I was surprised to see a two sided sharpening stone for a dollar, and I sort of hope the dollar store theme isn't popular elsewhere - though it does have some virtues for things like greeting cards). The same day, I bought a huge okudo suita, it was more than a dollar. I intentionally sharpened a chisel on the dollar stone, and dursol on mdf (similar to autosol), and then stropped it until it would catch and sever a hanging hair. The idea that somehow all of the modern media is an improvement over perfecting the skill is popular with the retailers, I guess.

Every sharpening method I've tried is one that works. The modern methods create more complications than solving problems. It's like those things that are intended for people to sharpen knives, they've got arms coming out in all directions and a bunch of settings to adjust and they take special small sized stones that are useless for anything else. Someone new to the game is probably excited to find that they can put a knife in one, follow the directions and eventually come up with a sharp knife. If they have to sharpen a knife 300 times over a year, I doubt they'll think it's so interesting.


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

CStanford":2mmxxl3p said:


> I have a nice selection of stones but what I now end up doing 98% of the time is using a fine India and then a hard rubber 'strop' (really functioning as a very fine stone) with AlOx powder. A less than $40 solution had I not bought the other stones that essentially now go unused. I still have an Eclipse jig that occasionally comes out if a rebate plane iron starts to get a little wonky. I certainly don't worry about ruining a stone that would cost less than $20 to replace if I shopped around.
> 
> For freehand honing I haven't found anything faster than this combination. The fine India raises a burr almost immediately, the AlOx charged strop removes the burr and polishes about as fast. You can even do a little 'tip up' on the strop to polish the back right at the edge and not create a discernible back bevel (chisels, plane irons, everything). In any event if one starts to creep in the fast-cutting fine India obliterates it the next time around.



One can't criticize that method at all.


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## CStanford (11 May 2016)

It works like a charm.


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## lurker (11 May 2016)

Little gloat:
Some of us are still using Charnley (Charnwood) Forest stones because some of us (well one of us :mrgreen: ) have exclusive access to the fabled Whittle hill quarry 8)


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

lurker":184os673 said:


> Little gloat:
> Some of us are still using Charnley (Charnwood) Forest stones because some of us (well one of us :mrgreen: ) have exclusive access to the fabled Whittle hill quarry 8)



I am doing my part to make sure the good (unusual/large/older) washita stones are repatriated to the states here, so you've got to have something to use after they're gone!!

It looks like the slates (other than water of ayr) still come from there in quantity.


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## Cheshirechappie (11 May 2016)

*chuckle*

Back in Walter Rose's day, craftsmen couldn't give away Charney Forest stones (previously avidly sought after) when the new man-made oilstones became available.

Now, when a genuine Charnley comes up on Ebay, the bidding goes mental for it!

Funny old world, innit?


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2016)

lurker":2l6yf5pe said:


> Little gloat:
> Some of us are still using Charnley (Charnwood) Forest stones because some of us (well one of us :mrgreen: ) have exclusive access to the fabled Whittle hill quarry 8)



Wot da ya do? Go out at the crack of dawn armed with a bolster and lump ammer?


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

Cheshirechappie":2yf3wczz said:


> *chuckle*
> 
> Back in Walter Rose's day, craftsmen couldn't give away Charney Forest stones (previously avidly sought after) when the new man-made oilstones became available.
> 
> ...



The washita and hard arks are described in Holtzapffel as wiping out the native stones, not in the first edition, but in the second. That would give a time range that those stones came around to commercial success in England. 

True hard arks are like the best and hardest charnley's, except they're all alike, and there is no natural english stone that I'm aware of that is similar to a washita. 

Not everyone used india stones. A friend's father (a carpenter in England) left his stuff behind, and in his tool box were three worn out planes and two stones. One stone was carborundum, the other was a washita stone. Both very well used. 

Having read too much bloggery at the time and believing the hype about modern stones, we were confused as to how he could've gotten a finished edge from such coarse stones. A little less confused now.

(not to say the india isn't a good stone, but it is not a replacement for washita and arkansas stones, it's a supplement on the bottom end).


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## Cheshirechappie (11 May 2016)

I suspect that the main reason for the highish prices paid for genuine Charnley Forest stones today is the value put on then by collectors rather than users.

But .... whatever.


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## Corneel (11 May 2016)

I must say that I haven't experienced the virtues of the Washita yet, despite trying. Mine is really too slow, or I do something wrong which is very well possible. At the moment I prefer a manmade oilstone fro the coarse step combined with an Arkansas translucent and a strop.


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## lurker (11 May 2016)

I agree it's because of the novelty value: so far as I am aware it's the only stone to come out of that quarry in the past 75 years.
I have nice oil stones but only use scary sharp in reality but am a recent convert to diamond following the trend offer many of us grabbed earlier in the year


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

Cheshirechappie":3oq47rnp said:


> I suspect that the main reason for the highish prices paid for genuine Charnley Forest stones today is the value put on then by collectors rather than users.
> 
> But .... whatever.



They have caught the eye of the (always say this with a gasp ) razor people. Actually, I think the people asking big money for them are sucking wind a little bit as other stones have become the "it" stone. 

The only people who will pay more for a stone than the razor people are the australian axe people (but what they buy is limited to a few things - norton barber hones and frictionites, mostly).


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

Corneel":34la02ax said:


> I must say that I haven't experienced the virtues of the Washita yet, despite trying. Mine is really too slow, or I do something wrong which is very well possible. At the moment I prefer a manmade oilstone fro the coarse step combined with an Arkansas translucent and a strop.



Go with whatever works, I guess. I do grind more often with a washita than I would with some other stones, and I have had a bunch to pick from and generally go with the fastest ones (which tend to have a lot of mottling). Still, a grind is good for 4 solid honings, at least, and since the grind is only a little at a time, it's quick.


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2016)

I have one of those frictionite hones. Came to me in a very circular way from the US. It's small, obviously intended for a razor. 
What is it actually made of? I assume some man made stone.


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## Woody2Shoes (11 May 2016)

lurker":1dqcprmh said:


> Little gloat:
> Some of us are still using Charnley (Charnwood) Forest stones because some of us (well one of us :mrgreen: ) have exclusive access to the fabled Whittle hill quarry 8)



Do they glow in the dark? http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C2346849

(hammer) 

Let's not forget that with some tools it's better to take the stone to the blade, rather than vice versa, making use of a jig more complicated (at best)

Cheers, W2S


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

MIGNAL":gp9aj883 said:


> I have one of those frictionite hones. Came to me in a very circular way from the US. It's small, obviously intended for a razor.
> What is it actually made of? I assume some man made stone.



Yes, man made. They (the literature that came with it) said the abrasive in it was from Rhodesia (something processed from natural material, or maybe just graded material) and stopped making the hones when they could no longer get them. The price for one of those hones was about $6 in the 1970s, so there probably wasn't a great reason to keep making them, anyway. The abrasive size is 1200F and like a lot of stones that don't shed stuff, they get finer as you use them. 

George Wilson sent me a pile to sell on ebay for him (which I did, and almost all of them went to Australia - all but one). I kept an 821 and 825 for a while (full 8" bench stones where each stone is like one side of the #00 frictionite), and have to say that they are the nicest feeling stone I have ever used if you put some water on them. Like silk over hard rubber. 

No clue what binds the abrasive together, it was something proprietary to american hone and there couldn't have been more than a couple of people making them. Am Hone shut down, and I think all of their equipment was sold off. Whatever they did, it's a really nice combination. I eventually sold my 821 and 825 (for what I had bought them from George for), just couldn't settle with the idea of wasting them on tools when there is no shortage of good stones that are not that rare. I don't know what size the coarse abrasive is on the frictionite, but maybe it's 4f??

(what I recall from the literature is that it boasted of the abrasive being square shaped or something, and gentler for razors)


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2016)

No idea. Never really used mine. I think I tried it once and it did seem very good. It's in a red box with 00 frictionite on it. It might be 4 or 5" long, I'll have to check. It has a small slurry stone with some instructions wrapped around it. Box is pretty beat up.


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

standard sizes were 2x4 and 5x 2 1/2

IIRC, the bench stones were 8x 2 1/2, sort of an odd size. Their wrapper said they were for "razor manufacturing", I guess the assumption that a cutler would have someone doing final sharpening on razors after working the bevel on a flat grinder.


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2016)

Wow! Some of these frictionites go for silly money. They are nuts!


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

MIGNAL":3jb8ypot said:


> Wow! Some of these frictionites go for silly money. They are nuts!



I don't know what they are now, but the good condition 2.5x5 stones were about $225 when I sold them for George. 

The axe men in australia rub them on their race axes between heats, and I know nothing more about that than it must be more than just pros doing it because there was a guy who sent me an email about once a month asking if I had any more. He said he'd take all that I could get at that (I guess he was probably reselling them to local club members). 

The big ones were a little harder to sell. I couldn't get anyone interested right away and bought them from George for $300 for the pair. I guess they were too big for the axe people to consider as being handy. 

I did eventually sell them for the same net. One realizes with razors that there are many other stones that do the same thing, and that once you get further into shaving, a barber or experienced shaver hones very rarely. Maybe a couple of times a year at most for a shaver, and every several hundred shaves for a barber (the newbies on the razor forum talk of honing a razor hard every 10 shaves or so, something counterproductive and certainly wasteful of expensive razors).

the norton axe man hone can bring almost $1,000 - same size as the frictionite.


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## MIGNAL (11 May 2016)

This one is 4 1/2 x 2". I think it's double sided i.e. two grits.


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## D_W (11 May 2016)

MIGNAL":2br7f76h said:


> This one is 4 1/2 x 2". I think it's double sided i.e. two grits.



All of the barber sized hones I've seen (that say frictionite on them) are two sided. The two grits are pretty close together, though. Am hone sold a ton of different barber hones through various brands, but their two with similar size abrasives were the super punjab and the #00. they were very similar, except the coarse abrasive on the super punjab was something else, it might've been carborundum - don't know. Not something you're likely to come across at a boot sale, anyway. 

They made single grit stones of other types.

If they were still making them for a reasonable price, they'd make a great finish stone.


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## adrspach (11 May 2016)

Cheshirechappie":ow6vyfhd said:


> I suspect that the main reason for the highish prices paid for genuine Charnley Forest stones today is the value put on then by collectors rather than users.
> 
> But .... whatever.



Sorry wrong suspicion. Theere are few collectors but not as many as straight razor honers. Those straight razor guys love them (yes i am one of the as well as collector with deeper interest in specifficaly this type of hone) and that is what drew prices up for good stones. However there are now many which are not good enough for razors.


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## adrspach (11 May 2016)

lurker":1fhrv03x said:


> I agree it's because of the novelty value: so far as I am aware it's the only stone to come out of that quarry in the past 75 years.
> I have nice oil stones but only use scary sharp in reality but am a recent convert to diamond following the trend offer many of us grabbed earlier in the year



Sorry to say there are younger hones which came from Whittle Hillquite recently (just few I saw sold on bay by guy who got hold of some stone from one of the quarries) but also there were others made in fifties and sixties by the last CF honemaker. Also there are other quarries/ sources for CFs more or less publicly known.

Apart from that and back to the original question CFs are not one stone to do all job at all. They are too fine. To be on the par with Washita from what UK can offer you would be more somewhere arroun Dalmore Yellow but it will wear faster than the Washita. On the other hand if I will want one hone only for sharpening of thick edged tools I love Old Turkey. So far quicker, can use pressure for sharpening, decent polish finish and does not wear out quickly.
I use naturals for fun.
If I want fast and not messy my atomas do the job. If the steel is a bit dodgy Tam O Shanter often is the hone of choice.


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## GoodGreeff (12 May 2016)

I like using an ordinary whetstone with an adjustable chisel holder on wheels. It gives a good and consistent result. For lathe chisels a jig is essential.


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## D_W (12 May 2016)

adrspach":1g0yglp5 said:


> lurker":1g0yglp5 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree it's because of the novelty value: so far as I am aware it's the only stone to come out of that quarry in the past 75 years.
> ...



Are you referring the user AJ something or other on ebay? He's taken some criticism on the razor board, but his hones are quite nice. The criticism comes on the razor boards because it sounds like (from his descriptions) that you'll be getting a hone comparable to a water of ayr or y/g escher, but they are not quite as fine. No matter for woodworking, though, better if they are a bit less fine. 

He does get a bit liberal with the use of terms like yellow lake and such, and using branded stone names for stones that are unmarked. 

When you say turkey, do you mean a cretan? (the black flakey novaculite) or do you mean an arkansas stone from the US?


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## bridger (12 May 2016)

I have a hand cranked bench grinder. it's just right for that kind of thing. it turns slow enough to be able to grind close to the edge without worrying about taking too much metal or overheating. besides, it's a hand tool 




D_W":19341wcm said:


> Corneel":19341wcm said:
> 
> 
> > I must say that I haven't experienced the virtues of the Washita yet, despite trying. Mine is really too slow, or I do something wrong which is very well possible. At the moment I prefer a manmade oilstone fro the coarse step combined with an Arkansas translucent and a strop.
> ...


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## swagman (12 May 2016)

_I have a hand cranked bench grinder. it's just right for that kind of thing. it turns slow enough to be able to grind close to the edge without worrying about taking too much metal or overheating. *besides, it's a hand tool* _

Bridger; you also use a milling machine. What's the issue with not using a powered bench grinder . !!

https://bridgerberdel.wordpress.com/page/2/


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## D_W (12 May 2016)

Stewie, what has gotten into you lately? I don't think Bridger's comment is one intended for a debate contest.


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## D_W (12 May 2016)

bridger":2me340c6 said:


> I have a hand cranked bench grinder. it's just right for that kind of thing. it turns slow enough to be able to grind close to the edge without worrying about taking too much metal or overheating. besides, it's a hand tool
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have never come across a nice hand cranked grinder in the wild, or i might have one instead of the uber expensive (not to some, but to me) baldor with a pair of wheels, one being cbn. Not that the baldor is functionally any better than the $40 ryobi grinder with gray wheels that preceded it, but at least it runs without needing to be clamped down.


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## Jacob (12 May 2016)

Hand cranked doesn't make sense to me - unless you've got somebody cranking it for you. You only get out what you put in so why not apply your energy direct to a flat stone? Also it leaves you with one hand to hold the blade. I suspect these are the reasons they are not so common. I've never tried one, I could be wrong.

But a flywheel would help. The obvious design would be something like the potters kick wheel, then you are using your feet as well as your hands.
Wouldn't be difficult to bodge up something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK3d6wPYlxk


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## MIGNAL (12 May 2016)

You are all missing the point. Bridger has given it in his post. It's about control, being able to creep up to the very edge of the blade without removing the tip. When you get close it's simply a matter of slowing the wheel. Not overheating the blade. Hard to have such control with a powered grinder. It has a great many different speeds, decided by the operator. There's a polished band of steel left by the polishing stone. The idea is that you remove all but the very edge of this. One hand, two hand, it doesn't matter. It's just another skill, doesn't take long. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kvlEPCEp6c

They don't even have a tool rest. None of them do. True freehand sharpening. The usual hand crank is a breeze in comparison.


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## David C (12 May 2016)

My first student was very Keen on all things Krenov.

He found a nice hand grinder, built a JK type rest and soon became very proficient with it.

David


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## Benchwayze (12 May 2016)

Charnwood Forest? Isn't that where Sir David Attenborough found his first fossil, as a youth? :?:

What like is it as a huntin' ground for landscape painters Lurker? :mrgreen: 

I'm trying a ceramic sharpening stone, on a whim! 

Cheers


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## Benchwayze (12 May 2016)

Jacob":1ipuig3n said:


> Hand cranked doesn't make sense to me - unless you've got somebody cranking it for you. You only get out what you put in so why not apply your energy direct to a flat stone? Also it leaves you with one hand to hold the blade. I suspect these are the reasons they are not so common. I've never tried one, I could be wrong.
> 
> But a flywheel would help. The obvious design would be something like the potters kick wheel, then you are using your feet as well as your hands.
> Wouldn't be difficult to bodge up something like this:
> ...



I have an old electrified sewing machine still with its foot treadle. That would be good for a 'goer', I could convert my Tormek? (hammer)


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## lurker (12 May 2016)

Benchwayze":1opy37kw said:


> Charnwood Forest? Isn't that where Sir David Attenborough found his first fossil, as a youth? :?:
> 
> What like is it as a huntin' ground for landscape painters Lurker? :mrgreen:
> 
> ...



Hi John
very old (even in fossil terms) and rare fossils have been found in the forest but not by DA.
The scenery is quite spectacular for a small area, lots of Bluebells at the moment in the woods. 
You could tuck in some wood related stuff too like a visit to Charnwood tools showroom and a couple of hours at Stoneywell cottage where there is some wonderful furniture made by Gimson
If you come next Friday (20th) there is also the David Stanley auction :lol:

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/stoneywell

http://www.davidstanley.com/


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## Benchwayze (12 May 2016)

Thanks Lurker. Me and my wallet would be well-served by keeping clear of Charnwood Tools; they have a dinky 8" table saw, that would fit my shop, and the reviews are tolerable. I couldn't get that under the radar! Sadder though is I can't go anywhere special; the Doc won't pass me as fit to drive after a suspected 'mini-stroke', on the grounds my BP is too high. He's ramped up the rampiril! 

It looks like living on rabbit food for a while, to get some weight off! :x 


Cheers.

John


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## bridger (12 May 2016)

no issue at all. I also have some 6 or 8 powered bench grinders, depending how you define bench grinder, and I use them. but for what DW was describing, quick frequent light grinding of the primary bevel to take the load off of the honing process, the hand cranked grinder hits a sweet spot of slow variable speed, no messing around with water cooled wheels and minimal throwing grit around the shop. if I'm doing something involving much metal removal I'll use a powered machine.




swagman":2rv6i28w said:


> _I have a hand cranked bench grinder. it's just right for that kind of thing. it turns slow enough to be able to grind close to the edge without worrying about taking too much metal or overheating. *besides, it's a hand tool* _
> 
> Bridger; you also use a milling machine. What's the issue with not using a powered bench grinder . !!
> 
> https://bridgerberdel.wordpress.com/page/2/


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## bridger (12 May 2016)

I have sure thought about doing something like this:
https://youtu.be/ldZvMvPZZuY



Jacob":2d9d400c said:


> Hand cranked doesn't make sense to me - unless you've got somebody cranking it for you. You only get out what you put in so why not apply your energy direct to a flat stone? Also it leaves you with one hand to hold the blade. I suspect these are the reasons they are not so common. I've never tried one, I could be wrong.
> 
> But a flywheel would help. The obvious design would be something like the potters kick wheel, then you are using your feet as well as your hands.
> Wouldn't be difficult to bodge up something like this:
> ...


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## bugbear (12 May 2016)

bridger":29530809 said:


> I have sure thought about doing something like this:
> https://youtu.be/ldZvMvPZZuY



Most treadle grinders are of course large sandstone jobs with a simple pitman arrangement; pretty much time honoured tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nx2Ut7K8Is

But there was the famous (depending on the circles you move in) Heyden AllBall treadle grinder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErMs--ZJAqo

It works via a recirculating ball bearing drive, very complex, but absurdly robust and reliable.

It almost defeats the object of a hand (human powered) grinder, because in adverts it claims to run the grindstone at the manufacturers full rated speeds (which might leads to more heat). With enough RPM the grindstone is its own flywheel, of course.

My local bike shop owns and uses one.

BugBear


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## Cheshirechappie (12 May 2016)

adrspach":ll9bnegg said:


> Cheshirechappie":ll9bnegg said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect that the main reason for the highish prices paid for genuine Charnley Forest stones today is the value put on then by collectors rather than users.
> ...



Fair enough! I suspected wrongly. Thanks for the correction.


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