# Oven tempering using a heatsink.



## Bm101 (18 Dec 2019)

In another thread concerning tempering tool steel in an oven I gave out a bit of misinformation in error concerning the use of a sand heatsink and that it would raise the Temps in a domestic oven to above the normal range. I was gently enlightened that a heat sink can't raise the Temps. I have no reason to disagree and I am always happy to learn but it does puzzle me. 
The original thread is here : making-a-brass-infill-plane-hattori-hanzo-dp-t120331.html
Rather than clutter that excellent build thread up I thought to raise the question here.
Hattori shows a wheat coloured temper on his O1 steel that seems to indicate an oven temperature of around 200 celcius. Ok no worries there. Most ovens in the uk go to 250.






But if the heatsink (sand in a turkey baking foil tray) doesn't actually raise the Temps, then when I did this 4mm thick iron for my first plane, how did achieve this blue colour that grades somewhere between 300 and 330 celcius? 





I'm genuinely intrigued.
With this iron actually, I fluked. In use it holds an edge at least as long as as any I have bought. Longer I think. Obviously I'm not applying DW. Type testing conditions! Just seems to work.
Mind you if you ever eaten an animal you killed yourself it's maybe the same delusion as that lol. Fish you catch yourself always tastes better.
Next doors cat too if you can get away with it. :-" 

What do we think people? 
Cheers 
Chris


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## Woody2Shoes (18 Dec 2019)

Were you using a fan oven? If so, I think what they try and regulate is the air temperature, rather than the temperature of lumps os material within the airspace.


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## Sheffield Tony (18 Dec 2019)

I wonder how much hysteresis the oven temperature control has. If the temperature cycles 200 - 250 - 300 - 250 - 200, a cake will not notice the difference between that and a constant 250, but the oxide colour probably reflects the peak temperature.

Wildly speculating here, you understand !


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## Trevanion (18 Dec 2019)

Bm101":35wm69m6 said:


> Mind you if you ever eaten an animal you killed yourself it's maybe the same delusion as that lol. Fish you catch yourself always tastes better.
> 
> Next doors cat too if you can get away with it. :-"



Ah, Sorry to hear about your cat going missing Ted... Here's some meatloaf I made yesterday to help keep your mind off it.


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## sunnybob (18 Dec 2019)

You need to calibrate your oven thermostat. Sand can not raise the temp. It can hold the heat for a very long time, so if you left the steel in there for longer than you should have the steel might have got hotter than your intended temp.

I have spent a lot of my working life with ovens, commercial and domestic, and its common to find a thermostat out by as much as a 100c. either way, although most are within +/- 5c by design.


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## Eric The Viking (18 Dec 2019)

I'm with Sunnybob on this. I have a cheap type-K thermocouple-based digital thermometer, which agreed with me that the oven was miles off. It under-reads by rather a lot (stuff wasn't being cooked properly). I estimate under by 10-15deg C. It's a Naff, er Neff. The fan oven is better, but the smaller oven that gets the most use has to be deliberately dialled "too high". The thermostat is right up in one back corner, where the it's hottest, which doesn't help. 

SWMBO's oven thermometer is just a coil-driven needle (mechanical), and doesn't read at all reliably. But thermocouples should be consistent. For super accuracy one probe in melting ice or boiling water and t'other one measuring, IIRC. Mine lets you do that and came with two probes.


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## ED65 (18 Dec 2019)

Bm101":bvxo6ul6 said:


> ...when I did this 4mm thick iron for my first plane, how did achieve this blue colour that grades somewhere between 300 and 330 celcius?


Maybe this is why:


> _ I was roasting some potatoes and squash with the oven set to 350F, but the oven thermometer read 600_.


 :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## ED65 (18 Dec 2019)

Sheffield Tony":krbwbicj said:


> I wonder how much hysteresis the oven temperature control has. If the temperature cycles 200 - 250 - 300 - 250 - 200, a cake will not notice the difference between that and a constant 250, but the oxide colour probably reflects the peak temperature.
> 
> Wildly speculating here, you understand !


Yup, that's exactly how almost all ovens work. The heat goes on and off and the idea is that the oven averages out at the set temp. Or thereabouts. Approximately like. Okay okay roughly in the right ballpark careful not to put stuff near the back-left corner on the top shelf as that's a hot spot.



sunnybob":krbwbicj said:


> I have spent a lot of my working life with ovens, commercial and domestic, and its common to find a thermostat out by as much as a 100c. either way, although most are within +/- 5c by design.


I'm active in cooking circles as well as woodworking. From everything I've seen it would be very unusual indeed to find a domestic oven that was accurate. Even at the high end they can be pants. 

User testing consistently shows that oven temp settings are off, with 30° or so being not at all uncommon, and sometimes way off (see above) with wild swings that make them a nightmare for home bakers. You wouldn't notice if you only cook roasts, casseroles and roasties, or ready meals and oven chips for that matter, which is why most people are unaware of the problem.

Not that rare to find ovens that are inconsistently off as well, okay-ish at lower temps but then suddenly decide they have an 11 setting when the dial is turned all the way up.


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## MikeG. (18 Dec 2019)

All of which makes the idea of a heat sink all the more useful. A heatsink holds temperature longer, be that up or down. In other words, a heatsink will tend towards the average temperature in its location, thus evening out the fluctuations. Someone wanting a constant temperature for tempering a piece of steel would be well advised to have both a thermometer and a heatsink, because even if the oven temperature fluctuates 50 degrees either side of his desired number, the heatsink will limit the range of temperatures that the steel experiences.


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## sammy.se (18 Dec 2019)

What about the dutch oven concept, i.e. a sealed unit within the oven, would that hold a more consistent temperature. Could that be adapted for tempering purposes? I know for bread baking the advantages are the even heat from the cast iron, plus the steam that is locked in. 

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## sunnybob (18 Dec 2019)

The oven thermostat will allow the element to heat untill the stat "reads" the temp its set to reach. it then cuts the power to the element, untill the temp reaches the lower set point.
The "blueprint" design difference is plus or minus 5c from the set temp.
On older mechanical thermostats (dials) the stat can be wrong from the word go, or can go out of spec as it ages. mechanical stats are very cheaply made and have very little quality control. All ovens are supposed to be calibrated when they are installed, by putting a thermometer in the middle of the central shelf. Nowadays with internet shopping and self build units thats out the window.
Old mechanical stats can be adjusted quite easily. On the most common types you pull the dial off and look down the hollow spindle. There is a tiny screw head showing. Use a screwdriver to adjust it.
DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE A CHECKING TEMPERATURE PROBE. You could easily set it so high the oven will catch fire. :shock: (hammer) 

If you have a digital stat, its more likely to be accurate. Most digital stats can be adjusted via the display unit but each manufacturer has its own system so the installation manual would be needed to find out how.
I had to attend a Tesco supermarket where the girl had managed to fool the digital temperature setting on the chicken rotisserie oven. at 260c it caught the chicken fat alight and quite literally blew the door off (cue Michael Caine) =D>


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## MusicMan (18 Dec 2019)

The colours seen on tempering are interference effects indicating the thickness of the oxide. The initial growth of the oxide at any temperature is initially fast then slows down (logarithmically) but keeps on growing. The colour charts are constructed for reasonably rapid heating for a short time, such as in a flame or forge, i.e. blacksmith guides. Tempering in a cooker will not produce the same thicknesses at different colours hence they are a poor guide. This is because the heat transfer rate is different in an oven to a forge or flame, and different again is the part is sitting in a sand heatsink. And if you leave it sitting in the oven for a long time, you will get the succession of tempering colours even though the temperature is not changing.

It is indeed not true that a heat sink (or any passive object not itself emitting energy) could possibly increase the temperature of an oven. Heat can only flow spontaneously from hot to cold, Though shalt not violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Actually, you can't. 

So what to do? You have found empirically a heat treatment that suits your needs. Stick with it. That is how tempering procedures were devised (with a bit more measurement involved).

Keith


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## Woody2Shoes (19 Dec 2019)

MusicMan":2vjgw3zt said:


> .....
> It is indeed not true that a heat sink (or any passive object not itself emitting energy) could possibly increase the temperature of an oven. Heat can only flow spontaneously from hot to cold, Though shalt not violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Actually, you can't.
> ....



Yebbut I think we've agreed that it can probably increase the average temperature of a piece of steel inside it, relative to an identical piece alongside but outside it - due to its thermal inertia. Also that the indicated temperature of the oven is very much an indicative estimate of the target temperature and nothing more - largely because of the (rather primitive) way that ovens regulate their temperature.

You can have just as much fun trying to measure the temperature inside a fridge - which I had to do recently. There's a stratification effect, plus the effect of air changes, plus the thermal inertia of the solid/liquid contents, plus a similarly crude temperature regulation mechanism.

Cheers, W2S


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## MikeG. (19 Dec 2019)

Woody2Shoes":nts0tog9 said:


> .........Yebbut I think we've agreed that it can probably increase the average temperature of a piece of steel inside it, relative to an identical piece alongside but outside it - due to its thermal inertia..........



No, I don't think so. The average temperature of both would be essentially the same, assuming they both started at the same temperature. The _range_ of temperatures would be much different, but the average the same.


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## Bm101 (19 Dec 2019)

Thanks for all the replies so far Gents. This is turning out to be an informative thread. I don't have the right type of mind to at least _easily_ understand some of the concepts being proffered but it's definitely aiding this bear of little brain understand some of the principal concepts. Both of tempering process _and_ how ovens work. 
Essentially in my case at least Musicman's point that empirically it works is the most pertinent for me but it's fascinating reading the replies.
Many thanks as always.


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## sunnybob (19 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":2cdgpym6 said:


> Woody2Shoes":2cdgpym6 said:
> 
> 
> > .........Yebbut I think we've agreed that it can probably increase the average temperature of a piece of steel inside it, relative to an identical piece alongside but outside it - due to its thermal inertia..........
> ...



As mike (and I) say, anything inside the oven that is inert (like sand) CAN NOT increase the temp. It can only hold the temp for longer than the surrounding air.
Length of time at any one temperature can affect the metal colour.


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## Bm101 (19 Dec 2019)

I'm a bit baffled here Bob. 
For the sake of argument, let's suggest we have a premium temperature controllable kiln for example. Its mustard because Nasa made it to work properly. You put a lump of steel in and turn the dial to the precise temperature you want. 
When that steel reaches that temperature how does it ever increase past that from length of exposure? 
Not saying you're wrong (obviously) but I don't understand how the colouration can change if the same temp is meticulously maintained at a constant. 
I pick a set of cold keys up and hold them. They warm up but don't keep warming. Is it because the temperatures are high enough to alter the physical properties of the steel in the oven? I can't picture it tbh.
:|


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## ED65 (19 Dec 2019)

Bm101":18cf1ev7 said:


> When that steel reaches that temperature how does it ever increase past that from length of exposure?


It doesn't but the oxide skin thickness increases over time. Tempering colours are traditionally achieved quickly and then there'd be a second quench to halt heating.



MusicMan":18cf1ev7 said:


> The colours seen on tempering are interference effects indicating the thickness of the oxide. The initial growth of the oxide at any temperature is initially fast then slows down (logarithmically) but keeps on growing. The colour charts are constructed for reasonably rapid heating for a short time, such as in a flame or forge, i.e. blacksmith guides. Tempering in a cooker will not produce the same thicknesses at different colours hence they are a poor guide.


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## sploo (19 Dec 2019)

Bm101":2t14jk13 said:


> I'm a bit baffled here Bob.
> For the sake of argument, let's suggest we have a premium temperature controllable kiln for example. Its mustard because Nasa made it to work properly. You put a lump of steel in and turn the dial to the precise temperature you want.
> When that steel reaches that temperature how does it ever increase past that from length of exposure?
> Not saying you're wrong (obviously) but I don't understand how the colouration can change if the same temp is meticulously maintained at a constant.
> ...


I'm assuming that MusicMan's earlier reply is pertinent; at some temperature (I don't know what) an oxide layer will start to form on the surface of the metal. If kept above some temperature (again, I don't know what) the oxide layer will continue to grow, slowly changing the colour.

However, you could instead rapidly heat the metal up to a specific temperature (a shown in the diagram in your first post) in order to quickly achieve a target colour, then immediately let the metal cool.

I assume that if a metal item is in a "blanket" of sand it'll initially heat up slightly slower, but as the oven element cycles on and off it'll maintain a much more constant temperature due to the insulating layer of sand. I suppose if the oxidation only happens above a certain temperature then metal sitting open on an oven shelf may stop oxidising, as it rapidly drops below the oxidation temperature when the oven element is off (whereas metal in the sand "blanket" will lose heat more slowly, thus staying above the oxidation temperature). Thus two identical metal parts (one open, one in sand) in the same oven may oxidise at different rates.

All complete speculation on my part; having no experience (but a passing interest) in this.


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## MusicMan (19 Dec 2019)

Yes, colour indicates the thickness of the oxide, and nothing else. The well-known charts are compiled for a standard 'blacksmith' rate of heating, hence they are practically useful.

If you leave the metal at a fixed temperature for some time, the oxide will thicken and hence the colour will change even though the temperature has not.

If you want the maths, there is no such thing as the temperature that oxide starts to form, or rather, it is absolute zero. The rate of growth increases exponentially with temperature, and logarithmically with time at that temperature, assuming a coherent oxide that does not crack off. If it does, then the growth rate is more or less linear with time. Iron oxide is coherent when thin and incoherent when thick.


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## sploo (19 Dec 2019)

MusicMan":17ezf8er said:


> Yes, colour indicates the thickness of the oxide, and nothing else. The well-known charts are compiled for a standard 'blacksmith' rate of heating, hence they are practically useful.
> 
> If you leave the metal at a fixed temperature for some time, the oxide will thicken and hence the colour will change even though the temperature has not.
> 
> If you want the maths, there is no such thing as the temperature that oxide starts to form, or rather, it is absolute zero. The rate of growth increases exponentially with temperature, and logarithmically with time at that temperature, assuming a coherent oxide that does not crack off. If it does, then the growth rate is more or less linear with time. Iron oxide is coherent when thin and incoherent when thick.


Thanks MM. That tallies with this (old, but very interesting) paper I found: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/ ... 63_A1b.pdf

EDIT: I find a lot of people are also incoherent when thick. Ahem.


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## MikeG. (19 Dec 2019)

MusicMan":eggcetxs said:


> ...... Iron oxide is coherent when thin and incoherent when thick.



Incoherent rust..........there's a thought!


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## MusicMan (19 Dec 2019)

"Thanks MM. That tallies with this (old, but very interesting) paper I found: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/ ... 63_A1b.pdf"

Yes that paper seems pretty sound and NBS/NIST work was/is always excellent. (I was on the review panel for their Physics lab in the early 2000s). Understanding of the maths of chemical kinetics made a lot of progress in the 1950s and 60s, but that paper was sound for the time.


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## MusicMan (19 Dec 2019)

MikeG.":2yaknbvc said:


> MusicMan":2yaknbvc said:
> 
> 
> > ...... Iron oxide is coherent when thin and incoherent when thick.
> ...



Well it always is!


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## sunnybob (19 Dec 2019)

I think you have it by now, but i will try one more time in laymans terms (cos I was naff at technical science)

The element heats to the temp set on the thermostat. (say 200c for the sake of argument).
*IF* The stat is correct, the power will be shut off to the element at 200c.
Because electricity is slow to heat and slow to cool, you get whats known as "overshoot" where the element will still heat for a very short time untill the element has absorbed all the electric.
Its possible for actual temp in the oven to reach 220c for a very short while untill the element reaches max temp and starts to cool. When the stat reads the low temp set point (usually 10% of the high setting), the element starts to heat again, and so on and so on.
All irrelevant if cooking food, 'cos the high and low temps even out every few minutes.

Air in the oven touching the outsides of the oven will cool fairly rapidly. A tub of sand will take much longer to cool because the heat in the middle of the tub is insulated by the dense sand around it.
This is the way the old economy 7 night storage heaters worked. Heat up very dense stone overnight and let them give off heat for many hours during the day.

Now we move onto the metal. Anyone who is hooked on Forged In Fire, will know that when working metal in a forge, timing is as critical as heat. Overheat it and it will go brittle and crack. Underheat it and it will be softer than a soft thing in the sun. Cool it too quickly and it will shatter.

Get it just the right heat FOR JUST THE RIGHT TIME, and sir, "it will cut"

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> (hammer) 
Sorry Doug. :roll:


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## MusicMan (20 Dec 2019)

sunnybob":e5132ar1 said:


> Now we move onto the metal. Anyone who is hooked on Forged In Fire, will know that when working metal in a forge, timing is as critical as heat. Overheat it and it will go brittle and crack. Underheat it and it will be softer than a soft thing in the sun. Cool it too quickly and it will shatter.
> 
> Get it just the right heat FOR JUST THE RIGHT TIME, and sir, "it will cut"
> 
> ...



Your paragraph on the metal is too much of a simplification, especially the overheat statement, though it all depends on the particular alloy. But the last sentence is spot on!

Keith


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## Bm101 (20 Dec 2019)

I think the over simplification is on my behalf to be honest Keith. :wink: 
Thanks all. I have a far better general understanding overall.
In one of those odd little moments of coincidence I came across one of those workshop practices books today. Number 1. Had completely forgotten I bought it (and a few others) and it was 'tucked away' by the Mrs in my desk. 
The title?
Hardening, tempering and heat treatment' 
 

So. That's the Christmas Reading List sorted.


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## Woody2Shoes (20 Dec 2019)

sunnybob":13eha3lo said:


> MikeG.":13eha3lo said:
> 
> 
> > Woody2Shoes":13eha3lo said:
> ...



I think you're missing my use of the word 'average' - that's important. The typical temperature regulation in an electric oven/furnace is a bit like the graphs on here:

https://www.eurotherm.com/en/temperatur ... made-easy/

My point is that the heat input to the "sytem" is continuously fluctuating. A lump of stuff - closely thermally coupled with the workpiece - which has a high thermal inertia will smooth out these fluctuations in a way that helps to increase the average temperature of the workpiece over time (versus the equivalent setup without the added thermal mass) - partly because it stops it cooling in the 'undertemperature' parts of the cycles. Obviously, any effect depends on the relative time constants involved and will be less noticeable where the oven is well thermally insulated.

Cheers, W2S


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## Woody2Shoes (20 Dec 2019)

Further 'food' for thought.....

https://genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/ ... ation.html


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## Woody2Shoes (20 Dec 2019)

Woody2Shoes":olpvxnoq said:


> Further 'food' for thought.....
> 
> https://genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/ ... ation.html



PS I spent a lot of time studying control theory some decades ago - I wish I could remember more of it!


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## MikeG. (20 Dec 2019)

Woody2Shoes":1f7aolv0 said:


> .......My point is that the heat input to the "sytem" is continuously fluctuating. A lump of stuff - closely thermally coupled with the workpiece - which has a high thermal inertia will smooth out these fluctuations in a way that helps to increase the average temperature of the workpiece over time (versus the equivalent setup without the added thermal mass) - partly because it stops it cooling in the 'undertemperature' parts of the cycles........



Yeahbut.......the heatsink will also keep the workpiece cooler than the oven when the oven goes above the set temperature, which is why I contend that the average temperature will be the same.


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## MikeG. (21 Dec 2019)

Here is what I think is happening, with the dashed line being the average temperature in the oven, the blue being the air temperature in the oven, and the red being the heatsink temperature:


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## CHJ (21 Dec 2019)

When heat treating small critical components in Industrial grade ovens we treated it as normal practice to place a larger thermal mass in the oven and let the oven temperature stabilise before introducing the critical component in close contact with the thermal mass.

I would certainly do this with a domestic oven if I was aiming for a temperature in the tempering region for a cutting blade. 
And due to the lack of internal thermocouples for most instances putting in a test piece to watch for the colour cast achieved before submitting the work piece.


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## Droogs (22 Dec 2019)

From what I've learned from horologists is that the use of a heat-sink usualy brass fillings rather than sand is not to raise the temp but to provide a more regulated and even temp across the whole piece being tempered to enable a much more consistent thickness of oxide layer thus providing a uniform colour as the light refracts on the surface once polished. Admittedly this is usually for when bluing hands etc but I'm sure the principle works for plane irons as well. Very well explained process here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhjiIPohUywtemp 

So the bluing on the OPs iron is due to length of time at a particular temp giving a thicker layer and not how fast it is heat up or cooled down


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## TheTiddles (25 Dec 2019)

Much discussion here, mostly correct.

Using “heat sinks” (a term engineers avoid using unless they’re electrical as they often don’t get that there’s no such thing as a “heat sink” like there is a current sink) does not magically make things hotter (or colder, the point of realisation at which I usually get brought in). In the same way as there is no such person that can’t lose weight by eating less... you just can’t cheat at thermodynamics.

One thing people are noticing is that measuring temperature is actually quite hard, many think they are measuring the temperature of something without realising they are actually only measuring the temperature of the thermometer, thermocouple etc... which may be very different to what they actually want to know the temperature of.

Aidan


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## Max Power (28 Sep 2020)

Bm101 said:


> In another thread concerning tempering tool steel in an oven I gave out a bit of misinformation in error concerning the use of a sand heatsink and that it would raise the Temps in a domestic oven to above the normal range. I was gently enlightened that a heat sink can't raise the Temps. I have no reason to disagree and I am always happy to learn but it does puzzle me.
> The original thread is here : making-a-brass-infill-plane-hattori-hanzo-dp-t120331.html
> Rather than clutter that excellent build thread up I thought to raise the question here.
> Hattori shows a wheat coloured temper on his O1 steel that seems to indicate an oven temperature of around 200 celcius. Ok no worries there. Most ovens in the uk go to 250.
> ...


Very interesting and useful thread, I have no knowledge at all on the subject so handy to refer to.


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## Jelly (13 Oct 2020)

Woody2Shoes said:


> My point is that the heat input to the "sytem" is continuously fluctuating. A lump of stuff - closely thermally coupled with the workpiece - which has a high thermal inertia will smooth out these fluctuations in a way that helps to increase the average temperature of the workpiece over time (versus the equivalent setup without the added thermal mass)



[Note: On reflection, explaining my logic clearly here would be much better done with some diagrams, and/or a system of equations... But that's apparently not something my brain is willing to do for me at1am on a Tuesday morning. Sorry!]

So I'd agree that:
_In no case could the thermal mass equilibrate to *a temperature greater than the average temperature of the hottest element within the system* (i.e. the heating element) because that would violate thermodynamic principles._

But, there's an additional factor to consider... Does some property of the thermal mass alter the modes of thermal transfer relative to the oven's design intent?

Ovens are designed for heat transfer via convection (be that natural or forced) to predominate, so the average temperature of the air as a heat transfer medium will act as a limit on the temperature an item in the oven can reach, exactly how you describe.


_However_ many of the cheaper, naffer electric ovens I've used in my years as a connoseur of inexpensive rented houses, had elements which would get *far* hotter than the desired air temperature when on, then just switch off for a bit. 

When I say far hotter I can be confident of this because the elements were visibly glowing, and incandescence generally begins to occur at no less than 525°C, that incandescence also means Radiative heat transfer is beginning to become relevant.

So... If the heating element is at a much higher temperature than the air, and you insert a thermal mass which has a substantially higher absorptivity than air it could equilibrate with the air temperature, and then continue to absorb energy via radiative thermal processes and reach a surface temperature greater than the air around it.

That hot (relative to the air) surface of the thermal mass would then begin to equilibrate with it's surroundings, and if it's a thermally conductive material, conduction would predominate so most of the thermal energy absorbed would be transferred into the interior of it, until it began to reach internal thermal equilibrium, meaning convective heat transfer to the air around it would start to predominate.

At which point the geometry of the thermal mass becomes important, because it is possible to have geometries in which the heat rate for radiative heat transfer into the thermal mass becomes equal to the heat rate of convective losses from the thermal mass, at an object temperature greater than the surrounding air temperature.

Only once the air temperature began to rise above it's setpoint as a result of that convective transfer from the thermal mass to the air, would the oven element turn off.


_So in principle there's a plausible mechanism by which a thermal mass with the right geometry and material properties could reach a temperature higher than the average air temperature of the oven; *provided the oven in question had a sufficiently crude control architecture to make the radiative heat transfer mechanism viable.*_


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## Eric The Viking (13 Oct 2020)

The oven I was complaining about (above) blew up in the week before lockdown. The failure took out the main logic board, making it uneconomic to repair. I paniced, and rang round locally to source a replacement. Ended up back at our usual white goods supplier, Horders, who I can't praise enough for quality of service, (definitely going the extra mile so we weren't left without an oven for lockdown). So what follows is by no means criticism, and I wholeheartedly recommend them both for prices AND service...

... Our new "Bosched" Neff oven is horrid, in comparison to the proper Neff one it replaced. I have measured it with a type K thermocouple (all I have that will cope with the temperatures. When the oven is set to 200 C, it initially overswings by about 30 C, with a hysteresis range of about 50 C overall. It settles to an average temp of about +10 to +20 C of target. I have "re-calibrated" the dial with tape and a Sharpie. 

Control was electronic in the last two Neff ovens (i.e. using actual thermocouples and measuring voltages), but is now down to oil-filled tubes and springy contacts. The new one's engineering is a throwback to 1950s design, and it is incapable of measuring the actual oven temperature, hysteresis notwithstanding.

This is one of many cost reducing (I guess) changes that have been made to the design since Bosch took Neff over, most of which are, in my view, simply cheapening it.

I am furious I got conned by the brand name (pretty much as expensive as its predecessor, too). I won't buy another, and I can see why people like Aga ovens. You may not be able to control the oven temp easily, but at least you get what it tells you!

E.


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