# A new pig sticker, or the hidden costs of walking to work...



## Eric The Viking (20 Apr 2013)

The buses have gone up again. I'm getting a paunch. My stamina ain't what it was. 

Add that lot together and the 2.8 mile trek from home to the centre of Bristol (where the office is) begins to look inevitable ("... Mr. Andersen."). And yes, it did me some good,* I think.

But it has expensive drawbacks. Obviously, for someone starting out on the return to fitness thing, meandering is impractical - the shortest trip is probably the most sensible, but there is a huge snag: my direct route takes me down St. Michael's Hill and down the celebrated Christmas Steps, into the middle of the city. 

You've probably guessed: that's less than 20ft away from the spiked mantrap that is Bristol Design.

I had enough self control not to go in until my way home, only half an hour before it shut (how much damage can anyone do to their wallet in 1/2 hour?). Well I escaped with only slight pain: a 3/8" socketed mortice chisel for £7.80.





It's the classic "pig sticker", but seems to be of laminated construction, with a different steel on the edge and reference face. Obviously I can only clean it up so much with abrasives - it's going to be more of a nuisance if it's significantly undersize, but I have to make it a new handle at the very least.




The "handle" was quite extraordinary. It has two rusty tacks in it (one was inside the socket) and what seem to be staple holes. I think it's oak, but I'm not sure. I've never seen the maker before, but I know little...




The stamp was invisible before cleaning, which might have been to my advantage--or it might just be rubbish quality, anyway.

You can tell by now I know little about mortice chisels. I've never owned one before , and this one is supposed to be a user, not a display piece.

So here's my problem: is there a standard taper ratio for the sockets, and is there a clever process for fitting them? I don't own a lathe, but I have some offcuts of hardwood curtain pole (about the right diameter) that might be suitable - it's going to get well clobbered after all, so aesthetics are secondary. I'll probably band the end with a ring of 22mm copper pipe (or possibly a brass olive!), but I'd like to make it as strong a fit in the socket as possible.

I had a play about yesterday with the bandsaw and a taper jig, and I can cut reasonable cones in the curtain rail "stock" (finish off with spokeshave and sandpaper). My problem is that I can't seem to measure the taper very well, and, as you can see the 'handle' it came with isn't a good guide. 

Before I go for wax casting the internal shape or something similar, can anyone point me at a set of instructions, to save me wasting feet of hardwood? 

All advice considered, but I'm already planning an alternative route to work, in case it happens again (they have wheelwrights' and chairmakers' tenon cutters, too!).

Thanks,

E. 

*one afternoon meeting a fortnight isn't going to kill me. But it won't get me fit either. :-(


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## toolsntat (20 Apr 2013)

Nice 8) 
JAMES CAM <1781-1838 Sheffield

Handle is not a critical fit so taper it and drive it a bit, if it is not home take it out look at the marks where it touched and roughly remove whats stopping it :wink:

Dont fight the toolie urge you'll never win, just call in regularly and feed the fever #-o
Ps http://www.davidstanley.com/auction%20dates.htm on the 10th May :roll: :lol: 

Andy


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## Harbo (20 Apr 2013)

The traditional shape for pig stickers is oval.
Plane, Spokeshave and a bit of whittling should get you there.
One method is the heat the metal and burn the wood in - not something I've tried though? 

Rod


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## barkwindjammer (20 Apr 2013)

Slow and steady with a rasp, you can 'soot' the socket with a candle-then just patiently remove the sooted areas with the rasp.


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## Eric The Viking (20 Apr 2013)

Thanks everyone! I'm delighted it's that old.

By the time I got back to my desk, I'd done most of the fitting. I took two goes at it, because the first time I forgot to allow for a shoulder at the end of the socket. The method ended up fairly similar to BarkWindJammer's idea (wish I'd read that earlier!), but initially using the rust that stuck to the wood, and later covering it with a soft pencil and looking for rub marks.

The socket is folded from one piece of steel with a lap joint. The seam is visible inside and I had to allow an off-centre groove to keep the shaft straight WRT the handle. I've managed straightness left-right and pretty much straightness front-back, but the centre of my cone was offset a bit, so the handle is a bit too near the back. I'm hoping to fight this a bit by sanding it carefully.

More pics when I get to a suitable point to break off.

Thanks again chaps!

E.


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## nev (20 Apr 2013)

thats not a shop! that looks like some mystical Mr Ben type emporium that has exactly what the customer needs although he never knew he needed it before he got there! =P~


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## Jacob (20 Apr 2013)

toolsntat":3357e8hi said:


> ....
> Handle is not a critical fit so taper it and drive it a bit, if it is not home take it out look at the marks where it touched and roughly remove whats stopping it.....


That's what I'd do. Ignore the burning idea! :roll: 
The other trick is to shape the handle _after_ you have fitted it i.e. start well over size. Trying to fit a perfectly formed handle is difficult and an unnecessary struggle.
Should have a rounded bevel. Sorry about that. But there are good functional reason - leverage at the bottom of a blind mortice is helped by a rounded bevel. It's about the moving fulcrum effect - as featured on other levering tools; claw hammers, wrecking bars, picks, etc. There is a reason for the bend. If you had a _straight_ claw hammer you'd realise why immediately on extracting the first difficult nail.
You may be lucky and suddenly realise that rounded bevels are easiest to do, and if it works for a mortice chisel it'll work on all your other chisels.

NB whether or not it's "the classic pig sticker" is another question.


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## Cheshirechappie (20 Apr 2013)

Nice - and a very fair price, too! Wish I had an emporium like that in my town....

Before Mr Bessemer invented his converter, tool steel was a scarce and expensive commodity. Hence the laminating - the backing and socket are almost certainly wrought iron.

By the sound of your last post, you've solved the taper fit problem. The outside of the handle can be finished off any way you like - spokeshave, drawknife, rasp, whatever - and they aren't usually a 'fine' finish. I suspect that as socket mortice chisels were meant for heavy work, handles took a fearful pounding, and replacement was a regular job - hence the use of a cob of stuff from the scrap pile, by your description of the 'original' handle. It's a tough design, though, as witness by the survival in pretty fair condition of a near-on 200 year old tool.

Most of these are not dead accurate on width - the size tends to be 'nominal' (but near enough). Setting the mortice gauge to the chisel, rather than a rule, would be wise. I wouldn't bother flattening the reference face, either, unless it's really way off. Just sharpen up and bash away. Mortice ends don't usually need to be high precision fits, and if you get one that does, clear 99% of the waste with the socket chisel, and pare the last 1/32" off with a highly-prepared b/e chisel.


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## jamesicus (20 Apr 2013)

My James Cam (3/8") heavy duty mortice chisel:











I don't think this is the original handle - I believe the handles on many of these chisels were replaced one or more times during their life time due to the heavy pounding they were subjected too. I also think most of the replacement handles were fabricated by their owners according to their own designs, whims and fancies.

Here is a very massive, old, Sorby (1/2") heavy duty mortice chisel which I also believe has a user replacement (worm hole ravaged) handle:











BTW, I do not remember using the term "pig sticker" to describe these chisels when I worked in Britain (c. 1947-1950) - maybe it was originally an American term?

James


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## Eric The Viking (20 Apr 2013)

James, that's really interesting. You can see the same join in the metal on yours, I think, although obviously the handle arrangements are quite different.

. . . . . . .

FWIW, here's how I've got on:

Here's the inside of the socket. 



It looks like someone used pitch at some point to gum a handle into place - thick black something, anyway. It might have been dipped in lacquer originally when new, but I can see no sign on the outside. The overlap is where I've indicated.

Here's the beginning of the new handle: 




It's Ramin, I think - an old curtain pole, with some horrible reddish-pink stain I can't completely get rid of. At the point I took the picture, the new one would fit, but with about 1/16" gap up to the shoulder. You can see the groove I had to allow for the overlap and a few spots where it's still slightly too tight.





Close of play this evening. I couldn't get all the stain out of the grain, so I'm hiding it a bit with shellac. This is the first coat touch dry. I'll do a couple more tomorrow and see how it darkens down. In the background are various 22, 28 and MDPE olives I looked at for a ferrule at the end, but without a lathe, my only alternative is core drills (hole saws), and the olive sizes fall inconveniently in between the saws I have. I've just rounded the end over and tapered it for the last 1/2" or so. It's not quite snug to the socket I've allowed about 1/32" for it to tighten in. As it will still come loose, I'm wondering about dipping the taper in shellac tomorrow then tapping it firmly home. It won't matter in use, unless it really shrinks, and I can't see why that should happen.

So it lives again, and doesn't look disgraceful. If I have a lot of oak to mortice, I might have another go at a ferrule, but it'll do for now.

Jacob, I take your point about the bevel - it's as I bought it at the moment. Someone put the primary bevel on with a file, I think. You can't see in the picture, but the marks are crossways, not along the thing. It does have a camber, incidentally, very slightly on the 'reference' face. I can't see it being a problem in use, and I'm not going to mess with it, just sharpen it as-is for now, and see how I go with it. I remember it being suggested that 25deg alone is a possibility, but I don't want to take much metal off it - hopefully someone else will be using it in 200 years' time.

E.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Apr 2013)

I'm glad now that I picked up the three Ward pig stickers that I saw last week for £10.


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## Eric The Viking (20 Apr 2013)

Result! I assume they also had better handles too, did they?

E.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Apr 2013)

Two did, one wasn't so good. When I get my daughter to show me how to sort out the photos, I'll post them. Just before xmas I got two Ward mortice chisels, a Ward firmer, and four I & H Sorby firmers (all box handled) for £20! They're worth a photo. I really must get around to it.


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## jamesicus (20 Apr 2013)

Eric The Viking":1tqngouv said:


> James, that's really interesting. You can see the same join in the metal on yours, I think, although obviously the handle arrangements are quite different ..........


Then we have the lighter sash mortice chisels, Eric, with the traditional British boxwood handles. Here are two typical ones:

William Marples & Sons (1/4"):











Robert Sorby (1/4"):











James


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## Richard T (21 Apr 2013)

I wish I lived as close to that spiked mantrap .... I'll get there one of these days.


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## Vann (21 Apr 2013)

Eric The Viking":2yf4f8qm said:


> ...about the bevel..I remember it being suggested that 25deg alone is a possibility...


IIRC the bevel on a pigsticker should be around 35° or higher (at work ATM so don't have references handy).



Eric The Viking":2yf4f8qm said:


> Jacob, I take your point about the bevel...


Leonard Lee writes in "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" that pigstickers did have a rounded bevel - or at least a slightly rounded transition. So, for once, Jacob is right (about his flaming round bevels (hammer) )

Cheers, Vann.


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## Jacob (21 Apr 2013)

Vann":tkhu3x2g said:


> Eric The Viking":tkhu3x2g said:
> 
> 
> > ...about the bevel..I remember it being suggested that 25deg alone is a possibility...
> ...


30 will do fine


> Eric The Viking":tkhu3x2g said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob, I take your point about the bevel...
> ...


Why/what on earth is a "slightly rounded transition"? :roll: 
It just wants to be rounded - edge at 30º, rounded back. It's not about sharpening it's about leverage, like it's mate - the swan neck mortice chisel. 
But once you find out how to do the rounded bevel you may suddenly realise that it'll work just as easily and well for all your chisels. Not possible with a jig - that way madness lies.


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## AndyT (21 Apr 2013)

Nice one Eric!

As I know quite well, it is a very good shop and one we are privileged to have. Prices are sometimes lower than ebay, sometimes a bit higher, but the huge advantage that you can go and examine a selection of alternatives is what makes it so useful.

I don't think you need a ferrule on a socket chisel handle, but when you find that you do need one for another chisel, there's a handy shop in Bristol which has a range of proper brass ferrules in different sizes. They are hanging up on wires on the end of one of the shelves of smaller planes and measuring tools, just on your left as you enter the main shop!


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## Peter T (22 Apr 2013)

Jacob":t9r6kkia said:


> 30 will do fine



If you want the edge to crumble the first time you use it!

35 degrees is much more durable!!


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## Jacob (22 Apr 2013)

OK 30º for softwood then. That's what I've always used, without edges crumbling. But there's no rule - what works is what counts.


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## Eric The Viking (22 Apr 2013)

I ground it last night. My bevel measure (notches in a bit of plastic, courtesy Dakota) isn't wonderful, but it was at 30 degrees. I've gone a bit steeper, probably 33. That gets me in the ballpark, and I'll round it a bit (aiming for 35) when I hone it, next time* I've got the big glass plate out for a scary sharp** session, probably next week. 

One other plus about a rounded bevel (thanks Jacob!) is the extra meat left behind (the primary bevel otherwise is a chord), but it'll get there with subsequent regrinds - I'm not taking any unnecessary metal away as it's old and nice. I reserve the right to change my mind if it doesn't behave.

E.

*It's tidy-the-house-up week. I'm a man under Authority!

**just because I use wet+dry on glass doesn't mean I can't freehand stuff if necessary, but you do have to be careful not to scuff the paper. It's a quick and easy way of going from coarse to fine grit, and I get on well with it.


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## Vann (23 Apr 2013)

Jacob":2btbiwss said:


> But there's no rule...


Correct, but people come here for guidance. We don't all have the knowledge you have gained by working with these tools for a living.


Jacob":2btbiwss said:


> ...what works is what counts.


But without guidance where do we start? 20°? 25°? We'd loose a lot of good steel before we got to a stable 30° or 35° _without edges crumbling_.. That's why we come here to get advice. Unfortunately you're so busy pushing your rounded bevels, you forget to give the advice the OPs needs. You know roughly what works, we don't necessarily. Try not to forget that. 

Cheers, Vann.


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## Jacob (23 Apr 2013)

Vann":2djthzam said:


> ....t without guidance where do we start? 20°? 25°?


30º. Try not to forget that. 

If in doubt just stick to the time honoured rule of grind at 25 and hone at 30. This has been repeated by just about every woodwork book and woodwork teacher probably for thousands of years and is good practical advice for the beginner.

NB I'v never had "crumbly edges" myself. In fact I'd never heard of them until people started complaining about LN chisels and A2 steel.


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## dannykaye (23 Apr 2013)

Never sure what makes a pig sticker, my favourite mortice chisel is a W Marples & Son. Sadly in need of tlc after three years in a box in a shed but... The primary angle is 25 and the cutting edge is 32.5, according to a Richard Keil gauge.





the end of the handle is three leather pads. If anyone has any of this pattern they want to get rid of please PM me as I would like a 1/8 and a 1/2. I could be persuaded to swap for more rugged versions


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## Peter T (23 Apr 2013)

Jacob":1ey85omg said:


> Vann":1ey85omg said:
> 
> 
> > ....t without guidance where do we start? 20°? 25°?
> ...



Ray Iles English Patern Mortise Chisel. ........... English Oak. ..........

Crumbles at 30 degrees, lasts forever at 35 degrees!!


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## Eric The Viking (23 Apr 2013)

dannykaye":1ps941n5 said:


> Never sure what makes a pig sticker, my favourite mortice chisel is a W Marples & Son. Sadly in need of tlc after three years in a box in a shed but... The primary angle is 25 and the cutting edge is 32.5, according to a Richard Keil gauge.
> 
> the end of the handle is three leather pads. If anyone has any of this pattern they want to get rid of please PM me as I would like a 1/8 and a 1/2. I could be persuaded to swap for more rugged versions



Can't help on the swaps, although the leather pad idea is 'mentally bookmarked'. It's a sort of woody version of a Thor hammer. On which note, I see Axminster sell replacement pads - would be dead handy for mine as the leather is quite shrunken now, but I can't imagine how you fit them - anyone got a tried and tested technique?

Sorry - drifting my own thread! Feel free to do a handbrake turn...

E.


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## marcros (23 Apr 2013)

have a look for a thread on rehandling stanley 750's. I am almost certain that i have seen a few things on replacing the leather washers. I have some stanley socket chisels that are not 750's (they are defiance I think, marked Stanley D Made in USA) that had the same washers on. They will be rehandled one of these days, when i get a few more.


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## Cheshirechappie (23 Apr 2013)

dannykaye":pjlmx1zg said:


> Never sure what makes a pig sticker, my favourite mortice chisel is a W Marples & Son. Sadly in need of tlc after three years in a box in a shed but... The primary angle is 25 and the cutting edge is 32.5, according to a Richard Keil gauge.
> 
> the end of the handle is three leather pads. If anyone has any of this pattern they want to get rid of please PM me as I would like a 1/8 and a 1/2. I could be persuaded to swap for more rugged versions



Have a bit of a rootle on the dreaded 'bay. Socket chisels come up quite frequently, and whilst I've never seen one as small as 1/8" (just because I haven't seen one doesn't mean they don't exist, of course!), the 1/2" size is quite a regular offering. Prices for the vintage ones are not too bad either - with postage, a tenner should cover it, and you may get change from that. They seem to be common in the 1/4" to 3/4" range, and occasionally crop up larger than that. I did see a 1 1/2" once (went for silly money), but unless you're rebuilding wooden ships or cathedral rooves you'd be unlikely to find a use for it - no doubt a collector snaffled it.

I succumbed to a few (a selection between 3/16" and 5/8"), not yet in service. All are laminated like Eric's, most seem long-lived and very well used. There's a bit of pitting on a couple that might make return to service a bit of a challenge. The handles vary a lot; a couple turned, a couple made by spokeshave judging from the marks. Handle lengths vary between about 3" and 9", not including the socket taper. One has a short length of thick-walled steel tube fitted like a hoop to the mallet end. One is wrapped in insulation tape - someone couldn't be bothered to replace a split handle!


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## AndyT (23 Apr 2013)

Well, if it's show and tell time for socketed mortice chisels, here's one I bought from the very same place, before I really realised that socket chisels existed and were a bit different; I just wanted one 1/4" wide:






The junction between hard steel and tough wrought iron is easy to see:






I'm not sure if the handle is boxwood or beech:






There's no maker's name so it's hard to date, but I like its balance; it should be good for another century or so.


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## Peter T (24 Apr 2013)

Jacob":2yt2743d said:


> Vann":2yt2743d said:
> 
> 
> > ....t without guidance where do we start? 20°? 25°?
> ...



Poor advice again, IMHO. 25 degrees is fine for most chisels but mortice chisels are better with the primary bevel at 20 degrees.

Makes it much easier to drive the chisel into the wood!


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## Jacob (24 Apr 2013)

Peter T":eb5m09zr said:


> Jacob":eb5m09zr said:
> 
> 
> > Vann":eb5m09zr said:
> ...


Wrong.
25/20 OK if you only ever poke gently at things (fine paring etc) but if you did any hard work you'd soon have problems!


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## Peter T (24 Apr 2013)

Wrong.
25/20 OK if you only ever poke gently at things (fine paring etc) but if you did any hard work you'd soon have problems![/quote]

Why don't you read peoples posts before rushing into print?

OK, let's try again -

Mortice chisel - 

Primary bevel - 20 degrees, making it easy to drive into the wood.
Secondary bevel - 35 degrees, to prevent the edge crumbling.

All clear now??


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2013)

Mortice chisel - 30º edge for most things (I suppose someone might need steeper) and rounded bevel. The rounded bevel is nothing to do with sharpening as such, but is for leverage.
A shallower bevel might make it easier to drive in but would also make it harder to pull out, which is also where the rounded bevel helps.


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## bugbear (25 Apr 2013)

Peter T":kyctohlr said:


> Jacob":kyctohlr said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong.
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Wise_Old_Owl

BugBear


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2013)

bugbear":3vrn4z1u said:


> Peter T":3vrn4z1u said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3vrn4z1u said:
> ...


Why do people post at all when they have nothing to say?


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## Racers (25 Apr 2013)

I don't know why do you Jacob ;-)

Pete


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## Cheshirechappie (25 Apr 2013)

At the risk of re-igniting controversy, I'm not convinced about 20 degree primary bevels for heavy-duty chisels, even if the secondary bevel is 30 to 35 degrees. Given the amount of punishment, especially levering back and forth, that such chisels are routinely subjected to, I'm inclined to a rather stronger primary bevel, say about 30 degrees. Then, if the secondary bevel is very small (as it will be after a full regrind) there's still enough meat to resist chipping and edge breakage by over-enthusiastic levering. OK, you have to whack it a bit harder - but you're whacking it hard anyway, especially if you're working something like well-seasoned oak.

Generally speaking, 25/30 for bench chisels, 30/35 for heavy duty work, and 20/25 for fine paring. For extra hard or extra easy-working woods, you might ammend these up or down a bit.


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## xy mosian (25 Apr 2013)

Just how much effort does it take to sharpen a chisel, mortice or otherwise, and alter it if found lacking?
xy


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## Cheshirechappie (25 Apr 2013)

xy mosian":zwjza730 said:


> Just how much effort does it take to sharpen a chisel, mortice or otherwise, and alter it if found lacking?
> xy



Well, if you've chipped a big chunk out of it because the edge wasn't strong enough for duty, potentially more than you'd like in the middle of a job....


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## GazPal (25 Apr 2013)

xy mosian":2b3cafm4 said:


> Just how much effort does it take to sharpen a chisel, mortice or otherwise, and alter it if found lacking?
> xy




Next to no effort if using a grinding wheel, but sometimes quite a lot of effort if attempting it all - re major metal removal - via bench stones. It's always easier to sneak up on (Grind down to) a shallower primary angle than find yourself having to re-grind - wasting valuable edge steel - to a steeper angle.

The downside to hollow grinding is the fact you always remove more metal than intended due to the arc ground into the blade. The angle between edge and rear primary bevel transition can be the desired angle, but the resulting under-sweep caused by the grind often reduces/removes too much metal directly behind the edge and leaves you with a weaker edge. Especially if using smaller than 8" diameter vertical grinding wheels and in comparison to flat ground or free handed bevels which retain as much meat behind an edge as physically possible.

I think Leonard Lee rightly mentions something about the above in his book on sharpening.

------------

A 20 degree primary bevel on mortise chisels is a wee bit shallow for my liking, but I do tend to grind in at between 25 & 30 degrees with a secondary bevel between 30 & 35 degrees depending on timber being worked. Chisel and mallet choice, plus good technique and setting out tend to take care of the rest. :wink: 

In terms of force used when mortising I tend to err on the side of using a well hefted mallet to drive chisels rather than opt the brute force route, as this simple option lends itself to enhancing the degree of control one has with each blow and greatly reduces user fatigue. Especially if one has a decent number of mortise to chop during a shift/session. It's also much safer and reduces the number of band aids needed during the working year.


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## xy mosian (25 Apr 2013)

Ok! Given the snags to re-forming the edge above. Wouldn't it be wise to start easily rather than to assume that all is well and to belt the living daylights out of the chisel.
Hollow grinding can be avoided, even on small grinding wheels, by grinding across the bevel. Of course you have to watch what is happening.
xy


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## GazPal (25 Apr 2013)

xy mosian":ob4hq1wm said:


> Ok! Given the snags to re-forming the edge above. Wouldn't it be wise to start easily rather than to assume that all is well and to belt the living daylights out of the chisel.
> Hollow grinding can be avoided, even on small grinding wheels, by grinding across the bevel. Of course you have to watch what is happening.
> xy




Yes, it's always best to gauge how the blade bites into timber on the first chop/mortise before committing to heavier mallet strikes. That's where technique kicks into gear and potential heartache is greatly reduced.  

A genuine drawback with grinding across the bevel is the risk of deforming the edge. One unguarded move and you're back to square one and need to start again.


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## Vann (25 Apr 2013)

Getting back to Leonard Lee, he recommends a 30° bevel for softwoods and a 35° bevel for hardwoods – but again says “Your guide is edge failure…”

An interesting snippet he includes (I hope I’m not infringing on copyright) refers to Jacob’s obsession...
_“The first time I visited the Sorby factory in Sheffield, England, in the 1970s, I asked the works manager why they were the only manufacturer to round the back of the bevel on their mortise chisels. He looked at me quizzically, drew himself up and said something like, “We have been doing that, man and boy, for the 40 years that I’ve worked here.” Although that was not the answer I was looking for, I dropped the subject.
Thinking about it weeks later, after I had returned to Canada, I realized that rounding the junction between the bevel and the blade back would make it easier to lever waste out of a mortise. That particular part of the chisel is used as a fulcrum in the process and rounding it would prevent the corner from digging in.
I should have said something to Sorby at the time because the next year their catalog showed all mortise chisels with a sharp intersection between the bevel and the back. A useful design feature had been lost because nobody knew why it was there.”_
The photo accompanying the article shows a slight rounding – not the massive rounding someone on here recommends for all bevels (hammer) 

On the subject of secondary bevels on pigstickers, Lee includes a diagram of a chisel with a 35° bevel, and a 25° primary bevel. However he recommends that the secondary bevel should not come closer than 1/8" to the face (measured at 90° to the face, not along the bevel).

Cheers, Vann.


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## AndyT (25 Apr 2013)

I've had to go quite a long way back to find it, but I'd just like to mention that Eric did say:

"It does have a camber, incidentally, very slightly on the 'reference' face. I can't see it being a problem in use, and *I'm not going to mess with it, just sharpen it as-is for now*, and see how I go with it."

which seems a sensible approach to me.


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## GazPal (25 Apr 2013)

Vann":21z7ljsj said:


> On the subject of secondary bevels on pigstickers, Lee includes a diagram of a chisel with a 35° bevel, and a 25° primary bevel. However he recommends that the secondary bevel should not come closer than 1/8" to the face (measured at 90° to the face, not along the bevel).
> 
> Cheers, Vann.



I think it can come much closer to the edge than his recommended 1/8", but the meaning behind his figures certainly makes a great deal of sense in terms of blade bevel/tip strength. Secondary bevel angles obviously influence edge retention.

I much prefer rounding the rear primary bevel transition, as it makes this section of the blade less liable to dig into the rear of the cut as you excavate/dig out waste. This method of rounding also helps when the time comes to bottom-out the mortise to a smooth finish.


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## GazPal (25 Apr 2013)

AndyT":3hk6uh6i said:


> I've had to go quite a long way back to find it, but I'd just like to mention that Eric did say:
> 
> "It does have a camber, incidentally, very slightly on the 'reference' face. I can't see it being a problem in use, and *I'm not going to mess with it, just sharpen it as-is for now*, and see how I go with it."
> 
> which seems a sensible approach to me.




I couldn't agree more Andy


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2013)

Vann":2gj6x0q5 said:


> .....
> The photo accompanying the article shows a slight rounding – not the massive rounding someone on here recommends for all bevels .....


What on earth is a "massive rounding"? Please explain.
Sorry Gary I don't understand this either "rounding the rear primary bevel transition".??

PS come to think, what is a "slight rounding"? Please explain.

Here's a picture of a rounded bevel on one of mine - a 2 1/2" wide oddity 







Is this a "massive" rounding, or a "slight" ditto, and/or where is the "rear primary bevel transition"?

What the f|ck are you all burbling on about? 

NB it's sharp with an edge about 30º


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## GazPal (25 Apr 2013)

Jacob":q9f8y4q7 said:


> Vann":q9f8y4q7 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



Never a problem Jacob. A transition is a point where two different angles or plains meet and smoothly convert from one direction or form to another, so - in this case - that would be the point where the back of the blade meets the rear edge of the primary bevel.

Slight rounding tends to involve a greater arc and radius than if working to a smaller radius which would give a tighter curve/sweep. Two penny round instead of penny round.  

Massive rounding is something I've yet to see on a standard straight bladed chisel's bevel.  I think you'd need to freehand something like an 87 degree angle - exaggerated for the sake of emphasis  - in order to massively round over a bevel.


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## GazPal (25 Apr 2013)

Jacob":2y2z2ff7 said:


> Vann":2y2z2ff7 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



I missed your edit, where you added your picture.  

You example shows more a straight transition with a distinct springing point from which the arc of the bevel stems.

The transition point is where the flat plain on the back of your blade meets the point where you'd normally find a primary bevel on a double bevelled edge. 

The babbling regards the roundover normally used on mortise chisels  Well...... mine does. :lol:


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2013)

OK so _the transition point is where the flat plain on the back of your blade meets the point where you'd normally find a primary bevel on a double bevelled edge._
But this seems to me to be of no interest whatsoever, sharp, massive, angular, rounded, covered in erotic carvings, it has no bearing at all on the sharpness if the chisel.


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## GazPal (25 Apr 2013)

Jacob":kdahcuvg said:


> OK so _the transition point is where the flat plain on the back of your blade meets the point where you'd normally find a primary bevel on a double bevelled edge._
> But this seems to me to be of no interest whatsoever, sharp, massive, angular, rounded, covered in erotic carvings, it has no bearing at all on the sharpness if the chisel.



Sharpness wasn't the point (Pardon the accidental pun) when mentioning the roundover at the rear of the bevel on mortise chisel. It regarded the manner in which such a roundover can aid chisel work when mortising.

--------------

I'd never called or known heavy duty mortise chisel were nicknamed "pig stickers" until I began visiting online woodworking fora, so assume it must be yet another "Americanism".  Bayonets..... yes, but never chisels. :lol:


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2013)

GazPal":9v32m7zi said:


> ...
> I'd never called or known heavy duty mortise chisel were nicknamed "pig stickers" until I began visiting online woodworking fora, s .....


Me too. I think it was invented on this forum, possibly along with "OBM" for "oval bolster" mortice chisel


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## bugbear (26 Apr 2013)

Jacob":c254kn29 said:


> GazPal":c254kn29 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



You are wrong, as a simple search would have shown you.

BugBear


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## Harbo (26 Apr 2013)

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSch ... tChis1.asp

Rod


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2013)

He probably picked it up from this forum.


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## Racers (26 Apr 2013)

33,900 results from a google search for "pigsticker chisel", they have learnt allot from us ;-)

Pete


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## Eric The Viking (26 Apr 2013)

The really creepy thing about that chap staring at the back of my neck is that, as soon as I turn round...

... he isn't. 

Fiendishly cunning.

:duno: E.

PS: didn't mean anything disparaging by 'pigsticker' anyway. I'd far rather live in a world where that was the normal thing to do* when you wanted bacon, than one in which it's politically incorrect to even smell the stuff. 

*possibly with a different tool, though.


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## AndyT (26 Apr 2013)

When I Googled "pig stickers" I got this!

Am I doing something wrong? :roll:


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## Racers (26 Apr 2013)

Pete


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2013)

Racers":2noz7m1f said:


> 33,900 results from a google search for "pigsticker chisel", they have learnt allot from us ;-)
> 
> Pete


851000 hits on "twerp"! That's interesting isn't it!


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## Vann (26 Apr 2013)

Jacob":1m2id1pp said:


> 851000 hits on "twerp"! That's interesting isn't it!


Pot and kettle Jacob :!: 

Cheers, Vann.


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## Racers (26 Apr 2013)

Jacob":14u77yfs said:


> Racers":14u77yfs said:
> 
> 
> > 33,900 results from a google search for "pigsticker chisel", they have learnt allot from us ;-)
> ...




674,000,000 results for "Whatever"  

Pete


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## jamesicus (26 Apr 2013)

Original factory grind on Sorby Kangaroo brand sash mortice chisel (top):

and 

Butcher heavy duty ("Pigsticker") mortice chisel (bottom)

















James


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## GazPal (27 Apr 2013)

Pig stickers


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