# Being ripped off



## Chippygeoff (23 Aug 2014)

I know that some of the members here attend craft fairs while others are thinking about the idea. Also many of the members sell various things they have made on a smaller scale. What I would like to get across to these members is don’t get ripped off.

One of the things I hate the most is being taken advantage of. I would never wish to boast but I am well known to a lot of people and this is mostly through the craft fairs I attend. A lot of the people I have been in contact with are in business and most are always looking for a way to make a quick buck and one thing is for sure, they are not going to make it through me.

Many times I have been asked by retailers if I will supply them and I always say no. There are several reasons for this. They always want goods at knock down prices and then they will double the price or even treble it. They have no idea of the work involved and seem to think I mass produce everything at the touch of a button similar to manufacturers in China. These retailers obviously have a business to run and need to make a profit. 
I was at one event recently when I was approached by a lady who had a chain of gift shops, she wanted to buy everything I had with me, the items on display and my spare stock in boxes under the tables. I refused. She said she would pay the prices I had everything marked up at but I still said no, now most people would have jumped at this opportunity but I knew straight away that if I took up her offer it would take me three months to build up the same stock as I had with me. This would have meant not attending craft fairs for three months and I would have lost my pitch.

Besides the craft fairs I also supply craft centres and like retailers they to have to make a profit. They add 30% to everything they sell and by normal retail profits this is quite a low figure and I presume this is because the craft centres are run by the local council and are subsidised. I sell to the craft centres at the same price I sell at the craft fairs and they then add their 30% and the stuff flies out of the door.

On the other side of the coin we can be ripped off when buying in the things we need, especially wood. I have seen ridiculous prices on e-bay. A local builders merchant had some nice oak that was sold for making up door liners. It was 150mm wide and 25mm thick and in random lengths at £6 a metre I thought this was quite reasonable and bought quite a bit. When I was paying the owner asked me if I needed other wood as he could get it in for me. I gave him my e-mail address and he said he would e-mail me when he had some prices. A few days later he sent me an e-mail saying he could get beech the same dimensions as the oak at £15 a metre. He must have thought I came down with yesterdays rain.

I always try to support local businesses whenever I can and quite recently there were two things that I wanted, one was a new office chair for when I am on the computer at my desk and the other was a three piece leather suite. We have an out of town superstore near where I live and a friend said they had a sale on so I went to see if I could grab a bargain. The suites were basically reduced to half price but even at half price the cheapest suite I could find was just shy of £2000, when I say suite I wanted a 2 seater settee and a recliner armchair. With the office chair they had the one I wanted but it was £630. Spending some time on the internet I found the suite I wanted in brown leather for £649 and I found exactly the same chair at Amazon for £67. With regard to so called sales I suppose a lot of people seeing the huge discounts feel they are getting a bargain and go for it little realising that they are still paying over the odds.

I really feel sorry for the small local shops that are still struggling to run their businesses. I buy as much as I can from a tool shop that is reasonably close to where I live. The wax polish is a pound dearer than what I can get it for on line and the abrasives are dearer to. This shop does not sell at the recommended retail prices, if they did they would not sell much, they shave the prices and make a small profit on each item they sell. A little while ago I wanted the big Dewalt compound mitre saw, the local tool shop had one on display at £669. I told the owner that I could get it online at £645 including delivery. He explained to me that there were more and more online line outlets appearing all the time. Most operate from their homes so have no overheads to speak of and that will think nothing of spending £100,000 to take advantage of huge discounts from the wholesaler, the tool shop cannot spend that sort of money on one order. I felt really sorry for the guy and bought the saw from him and he told me the profit he made from this sale was just £5. He shared with me that by the same time next year he would probably have to close shop. It’s so sad as he has been there for many years and well known to all wood workers in the area.


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## themackay (23 Aug 2014)

I think we must be the most ripped of country going.I shop about quite a lot wait for sales/offers etc for buying most of my power tools/machinery.Most of my small bits and peices I buy online from the smaller woodworking/woodturning suppliers.I buy very little locally mind you there is almost nowhere up here local anyway.Having recently retired I have gotten back into fishing again almost everything bought on line I bought 3 spinning reels from Germany and France @ 25% cheaper than best uk price I gave a couple of uk suppliers the chance to price match but they wouldnt is everyone just to greedy these days So how come I can buy stuff in the eu cheaper than uk.they have the same Vat ete as us.My Daughter is getting married dont want to start on that one its the biggest rip off of them all.Was going to buy two Sofa beds yesterday from a British company when I reached the check out an extra £70 delivery for delivery to Highlands when did Aberdeen move into the Highlands.I called them up and seemingly everywhere north of Glasgow/Edinburgh is classed as Highlands.So at present they are about to lose @£2700 worth of buisness for £70,its not so much the amount its the principle they dont charge any more for Corwall.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Aug 2014)

Yes, many do charge more for large items for Cornwall. One problem with comparing overseas prices is that we don't know what prices the dealers are buying at - I was in NZ about 16yrs ago, and I could buy some Sheffield made tools for a third of the price they were in this country, which would suggest they were buying them in a lot cheaper than the dealers in this country - and that's after transporting them half way around the world. Many of the rip offs are our own fault - swmbo came out of a supermarket (this after 30yrs of telling her to open her blo*dy eyes) laughing that they had large rolls of kitchen paper at two for £3.50 - or £1.49 each. I used to buy (for about 18mths) the smallest size Heinz tomato ketchup in glass bottles - it was the cheapest way of buying it by far. Very few people ever noticed. I was in a cash and carry (a real trade one) about 35yrs ago and I saw soap at a really stupid price, so I started to load the trolley. I stopped and thought for a moment and realised that the small bars were half the price (oz. for oz.) of the large ones. I started to unload the trolley and the rep. asked what the problem was. I told her about the price. She laughed and told me she'd sold 35 pallets of it, and I was only the third person to notice that the small ones were cheaper.


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## themackay (23 Aug 2014)

The excuse often used is what people are willing to pay is the price charged.But why is a software download $10 in the States and £10 here


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Aug 2014)

As are tools, machines, books...


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## Claymore (23 Aug 2014)

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## Woodchips2 (23 Aug 2014)

themackay":1j1nspqo said:


> .Having recently retired I have gotten back into fishing again almost everything bought on line .


That's a cracker :lol: :lol: =D> 

Regards Keith


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## Claymore (23 Aug 2014)

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## theartfulbodger (23 Aug 2014)

I fell for it, hook line and sinker.


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## IHc1vtr+ (23 Aug 2014)

Ok, stop carping on about it...


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## theartfulbodger (23 Aug 2014)

That was a good one! Nearly fell off my Perch!


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Aug 2014)

That's just plumbing the depths.


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## theartfulbodger (24 Aug 2014)

I know, sorry. There's a time and a Plaice for that sort of humour but I usually miss it


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Aug 2014)

You're normally a dab hand at it.


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## MauriceD (24 Aug 2014)

How I agree that we are ripped off in this country. My main user of time is making pens which I try to sell at local fairs. I buy my pen kits from Australia because they are half the price than those in the UK. On top of that, the postage from Nottinghamshire to north Birmingham is a minimum of £5.25 unless you spend £50. From Australia, FREE, provided I spend 80 AUD, which on the last occasion worked out at £46.00. OK they take 2-3 weeks to arrive because they travel overland via Singapore (they have travelled further around the world than I have) so you expect a delay and account for it when ordering. I have now reached the position where if I can't find it online I don't buy it.


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## Mr.Sheepdog (24 Aug 2014)

In the UK we are always being ripped off, one of the latest, the so called cheap supermarkets, Aldi etc. lot cheaper to buy the same item in Germany etc. Well known, Rip off britain :x :x


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## themackay (25 Aug 2014)

I can buy a Wivamac 1200 lathe in Germany £700 cheaper than the UK why.I asked for a price to ship and was reffered to the Toolpost.there are 8 dealers in Germany and only one here so no competition I suppose.
Alan


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## valvoltec (25 Aug 2014)

I can see your point,and understand the reasoning that you make,and agree that the retail industry is in turmoil.
I can understand the need for you to preserve your stock and profit margin,but are you not as guilty shopping on price and online?
I purchased my lathe and tools in order to make one item for my sailing boat,I could have purchased that item for less than the cost of tools,factor my time and materials in to the equation and its a loss.
I like to make things,my own time and my input into the design are more important than cost.
Most people,just want a instant solution,the easiest and lowest cost solution.
Most firms strive to make the most profit possible,they skimp on materials,labour costs, design and product support.
If you are making nice quality items,as well as you can,with some individual input you are going to struggle,the lady offering to buy your complete stock should have taught you:-
Your prices are too low
Your marketing and method of retailing is falling short of the product.
I am not sure that you made the right decision,You could have supplied a part order,and produced stock that was sold and paid for over the next 3 months and possible longer.I guess it depends on what you enjoy doing perhaps spending the next three months flat out producing work to exacting standards stops it being enjoyable.Possibly you enjoy the retail experience, of a craft fair,relaxed and meeting the end user and getting there feedback..
The online takeover of shopping especially for specialist,hobby and interests markets and the closure of the local suppliers and shops will extend everything we buy,there are now many online outlets/marketing methods for crafts and craftspeople.Electronic Shopping allows me to purchase worldwide,I could watch you make me a bowl or other piece or approve the design and finished product,as easily from the other side of the world as stood in your workshop. 
Look at the history of some of the Great British Industry,motorcycles,bicycles and realise that the reluctance of the directors to change and there customers moving on.
I think you need to embrace every oputunity to showcase and sell your work.The Lady with the shop is going to buy from somebody.


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## powertools (25 Aug 2014)

I'm sorry but I don't understand the point of your post.
You attend a craft fair and one customer is prepared to purchase your entire stock at the marked prices and you refuse the offer but I would assume that the fact that you took it all there was to sell it and you would have been happy and thought you had had an exceptional day if you had sold the whole lot to 100 separate customers.
You supply craft centers who mark up the prices by 30% and are happy to do so.
I think you need to rethink the way you do things.


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## Mr.Sheepdog (25 Aug 2014)

Why did you refuse the sale of all your stock, I can see where you coming from that it would take time to build up again, but why not negotiate, 50% of stock, and supply on a regular basis as required, then you would still be able to attend craft fairs with stock. knowing that all you produce is sold, either at the fairs or to this woman. cash in hand.


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## scrimper (25 Aug 2014)

Have to be honest I am confused too! If you go to a craft fair to sell your goods does it matter if 100 different people make purchases and you are all sold out or 10 people or just one person buys the lot? Or would you stop selling when 50% of the stock had gone? I could understand you not wishing to sell your stock off on the cheap but at the full price does it matter who buys it?

If I went to a craft fair and sold the lot I think I would be highly delighted and be busy making more stuff and perhaps increase my prices a little the next time.

Lol Sort of reminds me of a strange bloke called Ron Summerfield who run an antiques shop in Cheltenham, his shop was chock full of stuff and he hated selling anything! When he died in 1989 the firemen had to take his body out through the window as there was too much stock in the shop to get past, it took 10 people 4 months to sort through the stock!


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## Chippygeoff (25 Aug 2014)

Interesting questions. I have been attending craft fairs for many years now and it's something I enjoy and it's a way of selling the things I make. With regard to the lady that wanted to buy my entire stock. You have to imagine the scene. There are round about 300 craft fair stalls in a very large aircraft hanger and outside of the hanger there are many other events and attractions for the thousands of people that come on a regular basis, many travelling hundreds of miles. the isles are heaving with people all day and at times there can be an many as six customers waiting to be served so I have very little time to spend with individual customers. This particular venue is not my main venue but it is one where I can take the most money.

At this time of the year I am spending up to 14 hours a day in the workshop going flat out and at times it is not a pleasure, especially when making many of the same item but it's something I have to do in order to live. I can only produce so much stock in one day and there are times when I just have to walk away from it and do something completely different. If you have never been in this position then please don't comment on something you know nothing about.

On an average day I would have with me round about 400 items and a third of these would be on display on the tables and display stands and as an item is sold I replace it from spare stock. It is nothing for me to go away at the end of the day with a dozen orders for various things and these have to be made and the customer pickes them up the following week or if they are a tourist, which is often the case, I post them. In the areas where I attend craft fairs there are high levels of unemployment so I have to keep my prices low. A friend in Manchester can sell the same item as me for almost double what I charge and if I had a stall around the London area I could treble what I charge here. It's all swings and roundabouts but at the end of the day I am happy with the profit I make. If we take an average crfat fair I will probably sell between 20 and 50 items but I still have enough stock left for the next craft fair a few days later but in the meantime I am slaving over a red hot scroll saw trying to replce the items I sold at the previous craft fair and this is the busiest time of year and will remain so up until Christmas. Things won't pick up again until the last week of March but from Christmas till March I am still working long hours building up stock.

As I said, it can get tedious and boring at times and I am only one person knocking the stuff out. I have had to give up my web site as it got to much. I just could not handle the volume of work coming my way and that's why I never sold all my stock to that lady as I always have to maintain some sort of stock level otherwise I stand a very good chance of losing my space at the various venues I attend. To the craft fair organisers space is money and if i did not turn up for a few weeks my space would be allocated to someone on the waiting list wanting to get in.


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## valvoltec (26 Aug 2014)

If you are really that busy,try selling 50 things for £2 instead of 100 at a £1.
Consider outsourcing work asking on here,or a co operative with another woodworker.
Review what you make,how much it costs,and the man hours involved.
People who attèend craft fairs have disposable income,if what you make appeals it will sell.
You tell us you can sell at 3 times the price in another area,then do it.
What you are now saying is that you are offering a service to the community,selling things that you spend many hours making at a reduced cost,because you enjoy selling at craft fairs,but you don't enjoy making as the workload and pressure has become too much.But better this than supply one vendor with toys,that would buy all you can make for your full retail price.The whole point of the craft fair is too sell,things for a profit.
My own guess is that you are a cash only cottage industry,400 items that you take 3 month to make.
Gives you 133 sales a month,the average price wold have to be in the order of £20 for your gross turnover to be£2600 less materials and costs, of say £10 an item would give you an income of about £15k a year,Most of us would have give the lady offering us full retail on our stock which at my figures would need to be 400 x £20 or £8k a big hand shake and take the money at run.
The whole thing and your figures make no since,Six customers deep at times and yet only 20 to 50 sales in a day from 1 thousands of visitors,working up too14 hours a day,at 40 sales a day it would be 10 craft fairs worth of stock,.I can make most Sundays 50 to a £100 pound profit at my local car boot on a £10 pound stall,craft fairs were £25 twenty years ago,bigger events were £50 to £100.However you choose to sell and what your margins are whatever other sources of income you have this does not appear to be a viable venture or a fair return


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## Chippygeoff (26 Aug 2014)

Valvoltec.Voltec. I would not want to appear rude but I feel you have very little idea of craft fairs. First of all I am happy in what I am doing, and yes, it does get tedious at times. When I switched from scroll sawing as a hobby to making it into a small business I did everything that any small business would do. I went on a business course, spent time with the inland revenue and ploughed many thousands of pounds into workshop equipment, materials etc. Being disabled I am not dependant on what I earn at craft fairs but it certainly helps to live a better life, be debt free and have no worries. Also if I need to buy a new scroll saw or some other machine it is not a problem.

Yes, I can sell at three times the price in other areas but would you get up at 3am in the morning, travel 300 miles and get back in the early hours of the following day for what will be a 4 to 5 hour event. I don't think so. All my crfat fairs are within 3/4 of an hours drive from home. At the venues we have many tourist and I sell a huge amount of things because the prices are very reasonable and I am more than happy with the profit I make. I am not a greedy man out for every penny I can squeeze out of people. Last week we had an exhibition going on in the smaller hall and a guy there had a large range of wood work that he had made from the trees that were cleared to make room for the new hall. The wood was lovely, the workmanship was superb and over a week at the exhibition he sold precisely zilch, not a single item. Why, because he was to expensive. He had chopping boards on his stall at £38 each, small simple lidded boxes, £59 each. Each day he had travelling expenses and each day he had to pay for his pitch and yet he did not make a penny profit.

Yes, some venues can charge £100 for the day. I pay £5 and I have 2 6ft tables for that, sometimes 3. No two days are the same, one day I may sell 50 items and another day I may only sell a few. It's all down to who comes through the doors. I sell items ranging in price from £5 to £75. As I said, I am happy with the way things are, yes I am under pressure sometimes but it's all part of the game.


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## Claymore (26 Aug 2014)

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## Chippygeoff (26 Aug 2014)

Thanks Brian, some positive feedback at last and from someone who knows what they are talking about. It does not matter what craft fair someone attends and it could be anywhere in the UK. There will be times when it's like watching paint dry. I am very fortunate to be at the venues that I attend, they are prime venues and very cheap. This time of the year is very busy and will remain so up until Christmas. It is not easy to get a regular pict as I have, often there is a long waiting list. I have been at my regular venue now for several years and all the stall holders are like one big family, we help each other out, watch the stalls near us if the people want to go to the loo or make a cup of tea.

Brian, there is no need for flask at my main venue, the hall was demolished and then rebuilt, we have a super modern kitchen with an urn and every thing you would expect to find in a kitchen. The organiser lets us in to do whatever we want and even provides snacks. 2 hours before lunch one of the ladies comes round with a menu and we tell her what we want and the pub next door brings the food in around 1pm, piping hot.


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## Claymore (26 Aug 2014)

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## valvoltec (3 Sep 2014)

I don't quite understand any of this,you post comments about your business giving you small returns for a large investment of time and tooling and rant about rip off Britain and the price of everything. 
I offer advice and encouragement based on running several small business.I have attended and sold at craft fairs in connection with one of them.
When suggested to you that you alter change or take a new approach you then find excuses not to do,too far,too many hours,blah blah.
Best of all you jump to the defence of your current business model,what you were moaning about to start off with.
Other people post that indeed you don't seem to have an argument. 
I was interested in your craft fair subject and I recall making a reasonable profit from them.
Thanks for sharing with us wishing you all the Best for the future in your Craft fair endeavours.


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## powertools (3 Sep 2014)

valvoltec":3hzy4der said:


> I don't quite understand any of this,you post comments about your business giving you small returns for a large investment of time and tooling and rant about rip off Britain and the price of everything.
> I offer advice and encouragement based on running several small business.I have attended and sold at craft fairs in connection with one of them.
> When suggested to you that you alter change or take a new approach you then find excuses not to do,too far,too many hours,blah blah.
> Best of all you jump to the defence of your current business model,what you were moaning about to start off with.
> ...



I guess Chipy is too busy to reply. I was interested in his colour fill posts but we never had an update to his progress on that either.
I would and I assume that many others would like a link to a busy craft fair that only charges £5 per day for up to 3 6ft tables but I doubt that we will get a reply for that either.


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## jonluv (3 Sep 2014)

Regarding Craft Fair costs, just had an email this morning about a Christmas show last year £10 this year £18 --- did not even bother to answer the promoter
I wish my pension would increase by 80 percent!


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## valvoltec (3 Sep 2014)

Paying between £6 and 10 for Car boot pitch.
Paid around £25 years ago for craft fair in hotels round Derbyshire 
Needed to take £350 on the day to cover everything.


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## razornut (4 Sep 2014)

May I chime in. Yes we are ripped of. To the extent it leaves graze marks on our souls. Nothing I can do about that, however. When I have restored a razor hopefully sell some. Or a brush or two, I'm not in it to make a living at it. It is a hobby. My time is my own. I actually take pleasure when someone says " That's beautiful how much " the fact someone actually is prepared to part with their hard earned for something I made or restored is a buzz. A vindication if you will that I didn't waste my time.


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## Claymore (4 Sep 2014)

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## scrimper (4 Sep 2014)

Claymore":se5vt3i2 said:


> Regarding Razers post above its a new thing to me and unusual hobby/subject... although with my shaky hands I don't think i will be swapping my electric shaver! lol
> Any chance of you posting some photos of the razers/brushes? love to see others work.
> Cheers
> Brian



Indeed I had to read the post twice before I realised that razornut was actually restoring razors! Never heard of that as a hobby before, as you say it would be nice to see some pictures.


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## razornut (4 Sep 2014)

Ok gentlemen. Here is a razor and a brush the brush. Is my first attempt at wood turning the razor was also my first full restoration the scales (handle) are a set I made. The blade is a Joseph elliot 5/8ths full hollow circa 1850 both woods are coolabah Burr the lighter part of the scales is the sapwood. I hope you like em


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## scrimper (4 Sep 2014)

Well Razor, what can I say that is brilliant work, what an absolutely amazing standard of finish I just don't know how you could achieve such a high standard I certainly could not come even close!

When you commented earlier about razors I thought you had used the word meaning something else? But now I see what you have done I can fully understand why you restore razors. Top marks to you. 

John


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## novocaine (4 Sep 2014)

looks lovely but the important question is what does it shave like?

I use a modern straight or more typically a shiv/shavette (because I'm lazy), which isn't anywhere near as pretty as what you have created but does a damn fine job, I hope yours is of a similar nature, it looks like it anyway. perhaps your new found turning skills could be put to use for a dish and strop handle too so you get the full set? the scroll saw would do a pretty fine job of a box for it all too.

what are you using as a finish? creams and balms are pretty hard on most plasticised finishes.


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## boysie39 (4 Sep 2014)

Must say I do like your work. Never seen pics. of anyone else doing this type of work . When I was a lad the Safety Razor was making it's mark on the market ,so I never had to use the "Open Razor" but my Dad and my brothers used them . I did over the years have the luxury of having a few shaves in barbers. I seem to remember that it was a very personal piece of kit. 

Thank you for showing ,I hope you will post more when you have some .


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## Claymore (4 Sep 2014)

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## razornut (4 Sep 2014)

It would appear I have hijacked this thread. That was not my intention so I hope chippygeoff would accept my apologies. So I think it only proper to continue this thread else where so I'll open a new thread called different ideas show and tell in the projects section.


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## razornut (4 Sep 2014)

By the way my name is Dave ;-)


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## Claymore (4 Sep 2014)

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## razornut (4 Sep 2014)

novocaine":q5m1cmn5 said:


> looks lovely but the important question is what does it shave like?
> 
> I use a modern straight or more typically a shiv/shavette (because I'm lazy), which isn't anywhere near as pretty as what you have created but does a damn fine job, I hope yours is of a similar nature, it looks like it anyway. perhaps your new found turning skills could be put to use for a dish and strop handle too so you get the full set? the scroll saw would do a pretty fine job of a box for it all too.
> 
> what are you using as a finish? creams and balms are pretty hard on most plasticised finishes.


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## scrimper (5 Sep 2014)

razornut":1bvb5kaa said:


> It would appear I have hijacked this thread. That was not my intention so I hope chippygeoff would accept my apologies.



I wouldn't worry, its called thread drift and happens in all forums and most of us do it from time to time it's what makes forums interesting.


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## razornut (5 Sep 2014)

Yes may be but on the other razor forums I'm in it is considered 'bad form' old boy lol


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