# Comments please on Kitchen Table



## cutting42

Hi Chaps

I have to build a kitchen table that is long and thin to fit our new house's kitchen. The width is limited so I thought of storing benches under the table and using an identical design for the table and benches. 

Material will be Oak and constructed from planks jointed to make the top and bench tops with a breadboard on the table. Should I breadboard the benches as well? I have tapered the legs but kept them chunky as I don't want to brace the legs due to space issues.

Comments please as I am pretty new to this and would like to know any howlers before I wreck any expensive wood! Aesthetic comments are welcome as well as I am not 100% certain that it just looks a little plain :? 







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## Philly

I like it, Gareth!
Maybe make the aprons a little deeper - difficult to tell from the angle of the picture. And I wouldn't worry about breadbaord ends on the benches unless you are in the mood :wink: 
Cheers
Philly


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## Anonymous

I don't think I would breadboard the benches - particularly as they are quite narrow.

I think the legs on the benches look a little thick (same thickness as the table legs?), and possibly you should scale them down in their thickness to reflect the smaller size of the bench when compared to the table?

I think it is going to look lovely in oak

If you are worried about it looking a little plain, how about putting some butterfly joints in the top to hold the planks? I saw a program on the woodwork channel where a guy did this - looked lovely

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/ww_tables/article/0,2049,DIY_14446_3728128,00.html


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## cutting42

Hi Tony and Philly

Thanks for the feedback chaps, the legs on the benches are a bit smaller - maybe not enough though. I will reduce the dimensions a touch when I get home as I think you are right they are too thick. I will also deepen the aprons as they are 75mm at the mo, I will take them to 100mm and take a look.

Ooo... the butterflys look lovely, not sure I feel brave enough for that yet but will maybe try on some scrap and see how they go.

Thanks again.


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## Shivers

looks sound,just reduce heaviness of legs slightly,& extend top length so cleat(breadboard) width equals 60-65% of total overhang.
ie--if cleat is 100mm-make total overhang 160mm or there abouts.



formula example, 100 divided by26 x 16 =61.53 
61.53 +100 = 161.53.Total overhang.


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## woodbloke

Design looks good apart from one thing - do *not* put breadboard ends on the table top. The shrinkage of the top planks will be much greater than the breadboard ends...and as Mr C has commented on another thread, they will only be level with each other twice a year, or times when expansion of the top is greatest ie humid weather in the summer. Also, if the ends are well glued onto the top it will severely restrict movement and the timber *will* split. I've done breadboard ends on a number of pieces and regret it now. 











The pics show the top a blanket chest ...you can clearly see the step in the top at the corners....and also the rather large split in the centre  ...but it all adds to the genteel character of the piece, that's my story and I'm sticking to it :lol: Spell checka's back! - Rob


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## AndyPandy

Maths isn't my strong point - but 


> formula example, 100 divided by26 x 16 =61.53
> 61.53 +100 = 161.53.Total overhang.


 What is that?!

Surely if you want something to be say 62.5% (or whatever) of anything, you just divide the width of the piece by 62.5 and multiply by 100?


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## AndyPandy

Mind you I certainly agree with the Cleat comments! An accident waiting to happen, although depending on the use of the table, there are ways to fasten them securely to avoid the result of the movements, but you'll still get and see the movement whatever you do


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## Shivers

woodbloke":s4gpg27z said:


> Design looks good apart from one thing - do *not* put breadboard ends on the table top. The shrinkage of the top planks will be much greater than the breadboard ends...and as Mr C has commented on another thread, they will only be level with each other twice a year, or times when expansion of the top is greatest ie humid weather in the summer. Also, if the ends are well glued onto the top it will severely restrict movement and the timber *will* split. I've done breadboard ends on a number of pieces and regret it now.



Cleats as they are called can be fixed on via short tenons on the table top & oversize mortices in the cleats then pegged from underneath through the cleat into the tenon(but not all the way through the top surface.

http://www.bizrate.co.uk/diningroomfurn ... 45473.html

regards.


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## dedee

Each to his own of course but I have no problem with seeing the end grain on a table top. 

My own oak dining table has not suffered from the lack of a breadboard end. 13 years in centrally heated houses and no signs of movement yet.

Andy


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## Adam

Its taken me a few goes to see what i think looks odd. Its two things, A) I think its too thin. Imagine people sitting either side, then try adding a few wine glasses, baskets of bread, dishes bowls of food etc in between them, and I think they are sitting too close (face to face if you like). Secondly, I think it needs more overhang, the breadboard ends look odd because they sit over the top of the legs, I'd have the main planks extend further, particularly in the lengthways dimensions, but in the width a little as well. 

Putting a gentle curve into the horizontal bearers would maybe add a bit of interest?

What I do like is its simplicity. So I think it will look great once made.

Adam

Doh, read the original post. Its for a long thing kitchen....


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## SketchUp Guru

There's no reason to get splits in a table top with bread board ends if the assmbly is done properly. I think for this table though I'd leave them off so they match the benches. For a small space I think this looks good.

You might also consider trestle legs for the table and benches.


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## woodbloke

Even if the assembly was done with oversize mortices pegged from the underside, as Shivers correctly suggests (and clearly my assembly was wrong), there is still *no* way to counteract the 'stepped' effect of differential shrinkage rates which can be seen in my photos...its very irritating to see the timber shrink and know that if a different approach to the construction had been adopted the completed job would have been much better.

I also wonder with the pegged approach from the underside, if the joint line between the end grain and cleat would eventually widen over time due to shrinkage of the cleat itself...again that would irritate me. FWIW I think that the idea of and end cleat to hide end grain is an attractive one, but doesn't _really_ work in practice - Rob


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## Shivers

woodbloke":di3mv33c said:


> I also wonder with the pegged approach from the underside, if the joint line between the end grain and cleat would eventually widen over time due to shrinkage of the cleat itself...again that would irritate me. FWIW I think that the idea of and end cleat to hide end grain is an attractive one, but doesn't _really_ work in practice - Rob




it wouldn't shrink& cause a gap as you are supposed to put the pegs within 15mm or less near the edge ---so the cleat would shrink towards the table top,the only way that would have a gap is if the tenons bottomed out,

Also it got me thinking as to why cleats were needed in the first place ----then i remembered --to keep the top level & prevent warpage at the end.

regards


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## SketchUp Guru

Rob, you are correct. There is no way to prevent the stepped effect with breadboard ends but it can be either minimized by using quartersawn lumber for the planking or it can be used as a design element.


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## DomValente

Think I might brace the bench legs they get a lot of abuse 

Dom


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## woodbloke

DaveR-... see what you mean....those are attractive pieces - Rob


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## spadge

woodbloke":dbe7w19s said:


> Even if the assembly was done with oversize mortices pegged from the underside, as Shivers correctly suggests (and clearly my assembly was wrong), there is still *no* way to counteract the 'stepped' effect of differential shrinkage rates which can be seen in my photos...its very irritating to see the timber shrink and know that if a different approach to the construction had been adopted the completed job would have been much better.
> 
> I also wonder with the pegged approach from the underside, if the joint line between the end grain and cleat would eventually widen over time due to shrinkage of the cleat itself...again that would irritate me. FWIW I think that the idea of and end cleat to hide end grain is an attractive one, but doesn't _really_ work in practice - Rob



You can't stop the movement but you can hide it if you make the breadboard ends slightly overlength and make a visible shaped dummy "tenon" that you glue into the table top but allow to float in the breadboard end. These are most usually seen in "Green and Green" tables like this:-


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## cutting42

Wow! :shock: :shock: :shock: I logged in and what a fantastic response to my question. Some really useful advice here especially on how to minimise the movement. I was planing an oversize mortice to allow for movement. I might even do through pegs for the detail. I do like the look of the breadboard/cleat so will probably keep it.

I have modified the overall sizes and overhangs etc. along with the comments and I have to say I am really pleased it does look a lot nicer so thanks:






Once again many thanks for the advice.

Actually I just though of something - is quarter sawn oak a lot more expensive? Any clue as to the expected cost and where to get it?


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## Anonymous

vYou must enter a message when posting.


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## spadge

Mr_Grimsdale":3d2ui530 said:


> The board ends won't move if they are well joined, and dry enough - which means ideally leaving them in the room where you are going to have the table, for a year at least, or drying them under controlled conditions, or take a chance and be prepared to remake the table top after a year or so. Also the top must be loosely attached with buttons to allow movement.
> I'd give the table top more overhang on the sides and both table and benches a long overhang at each end say 12". It's fairly traditional and is practical - it makes general movement around the table and benches a bit easier esp if you are stuck for space.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



The only time a breadboard end will not move is if the moisture content of the timber never changes over the making and lifetime of the table(and therefore the wood always remains the same size). I think this is a dangerous assumtion to make.
You can leave the wood to season for as long as you like but if the moisture content of the wood changes (because of varying humidy levels with the seasons for example) the table top boards will move across thier width. This movement, because it is across the grain will be more than the breadboard end (which in comparison is moving along the grain) and a step will develop.
That's one reason why I don't like breadboard ends unless they are made in the Green & Green fashion to hide this movement.


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## Shivers

spadge":2656eyce said:


> Mr_Grimsdale":2656eyce said:
> 
> 
> 
> The board ends won't move if they are well joined, and dry enough - which means ideally leaving them in the room where you are going to have the table, for a year at least, or drying them under controlled conditions, or take a chance and be prepared to remake the table top after a year or so. Also the top must be loosely attached with buttons to allow movement.
> I'd give the table top more overhang on the sides and both table and benches a long overhang at each end say 12". It's fairly traditional and is practical - it makes general movement around the table and benches a bit easier esp if you are stuck for space.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only time a breadboard end will not move is if the moisture content of the timber never changes over the making and lifetime of the table(and therefore the wood always remains the same size). I think this is a dangerous assumtion to make.
> You can leave the wood to season for as long as you like but if the moisture content of the wood changes (because of varying humidy levels with the seasons for example) the table top boards will move across thier width. This movement, because it is across the grain will be more than the breadboard end (which in comparison is moving along the grain) and a step will develop.
> That's one reason why I don't like breadboard ends unless they are made in the Green & Green fashion to hide this movement.
Click to expand...



Cleats have been used since the word dot to protect /stabilize table ends this really isn't a splitting hairs situation.wether the wood shrinks or not,its still going to be ok as long as they are fixed in place correctly.If you take a look through charles haywards many woodworking books you will see the perfect way to do it,people read to many amatuer mags these days & listen to norm --where-as they should be consulting the great writers of the past. whoever coined 'Breadboard is a perfect example of a not very well read person' Is that one outta fine woodworking or off of norm again.


A bemused shivers.


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## SketchUp Guru

spadge
You can't stop the movement but you can hide it if you make the breadboard ends slightly overlength and make a visible shaped dummy "tenon" that you glue into the table top but allow to float in the breadboard end. These are most usually seen in "Green and Green" tables like this:-
[img:y5eyln78 said:


> http://www.barnfurnituremart.com/larger_image.asp?id=LFBTG603B[/img]



FWIW, the pieces I posted images of on the first page of this thread are Greene & Greene designs.


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## Shivers

Dave R":2m7f1s23 said:


> spadge
> You can't stop the movement but you can hide it if you make the breadboard ends slightly overlength and make a visible shaped dummy "tenon" that you glue into the table top but allow to float in the breadboard end. These are most usually seen in "Green and Green" tables like this:-
> [img:2m7f1s23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.barnfurnituremart.com/larger_image.asp?id=LFBTG603B[/img]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, the pieces I posted images of on the first page of this thread are Greene & Greene designs.
Click to expand...


i noticed that--what gets me is all the misinformation that flies around 'dummy tenons' ect breadboards --i real;ly don't care what modern mags suggest at all as most of em are aimed at the amateur market,i'm starting to get a bit disconcerted on this forum as people don't listen to good advice at all --but ramble on about makers like green & green as a reference point (nothing wrong with them but a photo is hardly a refence point for construction techniques)---when the authorities to be worshiped should be the likes of charles haywood ,william lincoln ect----bah


regards.


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## SketchUp Guru

Well, Shivers, I'm sorry that you misunderstood my post and thought that I was trying to show a construction method. I only intended the images as illustrations of designs that use breadboard ends and have successfully dealt with the inevitable movement of the wood. I didn't make any statements regarding how to make the joinery.

The Green*e*'s made good use of the breadboard design and the joinery is clearly effective. Most of the pieces that were built to their designs are still around.

There is plenty of information available regarding the proper way to fasten breadboard ends. All one needs to do is look.

As far as the construction methods used in the designs of Charles Greene, they are described in several books. Darrel Peart's book, _Greene & Greene : Design Elements for the Woodshop_ is excellent and although I haven't seen it, Robert W. Lang's new book, _Shop Drawings for Greene and Greene Furniture_ is supposed to be a good reference.

All that aside, I think I'd still rather see Cutting42's table without the breadboard ends or else add them to the benches. 

Oh, I'm also sorry you are offended by the term "breadboard". It has been in wide use for a long time.

Oh, and I do have a first edition copy of Charles Hayward's _Woodwork Joints_ and I have read it and referred to it many times.


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## Shivers

Dave R":3juyjlfj said:


> Well, Shivers, I'm sorry that you misunderstood my post and thought that I was trying to show a construction method. I only intended the images as illustrations of designs that use breadboard ends and have successfully dealt with the inevitable movement of the wood. I didn't make any statements regarding how to make the joinery.
> 
> The Green*e*'s made good use of the breadboard design and the joinery is clearly effective. Most of the pieces that were built to their designs are still around.
> 
> There is plenty of information available regarding the proper way to fasten breadboard ends. All one needs to do is look.
> 
> As far as the construction methods used in the designs of Charles Greene, they are described in several books. Darrel Peart's book, _Greene & Greene : Design Elements for the Woodshop_ is excellent and although I haven't seen it, Robert W. Lang's new book, _Shop Drawings for Greene and Greene Furniture_ is supposed to be a good reference.
> 
> All that aside, I think I'd still rather see Cutting42's table without the breadboard ends or else add them to the benches.
> 
> Oh, I'm also sorry you are offended by the term "breadboard". It has been in wide use for a long time.
> 
> Oh, and I do have a first edition copy of Charles Hayward's _Woodwork Joints_ and I have read it and referred to it many times.



Whoops not aimed at you dave --it was general musings at how much misinformation or half info was being spread to the owner of this thread who simply wants to make a kitchen table ---now he's going to bite all his nails off trying to make his mind up.

your post was fine & i agree with what you said,green & green's methods look fine ---i was merely stating that maybe a reference construction method should be given rather than pics ---i was in the middle of giving it a go to clarify when you posted ---so i carried it on in your post more in agreement with you than not --if you know what i mean!!.
Breadboards is hardly a sophisticated term is it though---i couldn't see myself using that term on a highend table using cleats.
These modern writers are in some ways ruining the trade ---all the trad terminology is going out the widow--The woodworking trade as a result is becoming like the house of babel.

later.


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## Alf

One aspect that may, or may not, be relevant is a kitchen table will get crumbs, crud etc on it in the normal course of use - will a breadboard end/cleat/doohickey/whateveryouwanttocallit not provide an extra place for such crud to be lodged? Just a thought.

Cheers, Alf


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## Shivers

Alf":27fn097v said:


> One aspect that may, or may not, be relevant is a kitchen table will get crumbs, crud etc on it in the normal course of use - will a breadboard end/cleat/doohickey/whateveryouwanttocallit not provide an extra place for such crud to be lodged? Just a thought.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



in that case wooden breadboards(cutting boards) with cleats on the end should all pass modern health & safety regs for kitchen use,

regards.


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## Alf

Erm, what? Is that total dismissal of the point, dig at Health & Safety, or what? Don't understand.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting.


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## Shivers

Alf":24as7pef said:


> Erm, what? Is that total dismissal of the point, dig at Health & Safety, or what? Don't understand.
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I can't ever remember seeing where dirt getting into any tabletop stopped them being made in all different fashions,

the term breadboard should apply to just that a cuting board for cutting bread.
If the table top is taken as a whole --how can the end part be called a breadboard if it is in fact a strip of wood,--i don't really care who wrote it first or who else uses it--its a complete mudperson/laymans term that should only apply to kitchen accessories--not in a description of table top construction.These modern writers are re-writing woodwork tech as their own purely by using dumbed down terminology.

No alf again a valid point --but when did that ever stop people making tables in this fashion.


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## Shivers

Mr_Grimsdale":1nscb794 said:


> Table I made about 6 years ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have been able to monitor it regularly as I gave it to my mum.
> Sycamore boards joined with plywood slip in slots (stopped so you can't see them at the ends) various widths from 10" and about 30mm thick. Joints still absolutely tight as a drum with no splits or differential movement.
> Nowadays you expect things to go into dry, centrally heated houses. If they go in dry they will stay dry and movement will be less than in the bad old days. Still will need button fixings however, to relieve stress from whatever source.
> On the other hand - a very similar table which I know of (he copied mine) has cleated (breadboard?) ends which only occasionally line up exactly with the edges of the board. Would have been better without them. Cleated ends perhaps more necessary in a more taxing environment with bigger variations in temp and humidity, or heavy duty use of the table.
> cheers
> Jacob



agree with you there grimsy--cleats come in handy with either very wide tops or those made with thicker timber,also a consideration is that all older examples were made with no glue what soever--everything was pegged so there was a lot more drift & movement going on--the cleats helped in this situation to hold the table top together, whereas modern day glues have done away with the need --however to still have the look ---you still cant escape the fact that wood still moves --even if it is 2007 the rules of wood still apply--it will shrink & expand.


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## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting.


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## Shivers

Mr_Grimsdale":1ifuhl6d said:


> Shivers":1ifuhl6d said:
> 
> 
> 
> snip
> ---you still cant escape the fact that wood still moves --even if it is 2007 the rules of wood still apply--it will shrink & expand.
> 
> 
> 
> Yebbut what counts is _differential_ movement - if all moves at the same rate then there is no problem.
> Infact my table above showed a lot of movement in the drawer bottoms (10mm redwood boards) but with trad details this not a prob; pull out the nails and tap the board back into its slot.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob
Click to expand...

I know you know ya stuff--that wernt aimed at you that was aimed at the biscuit jointer crowd whom would sling a cleat on with biscuits poly glue ect.& no joinery.---i gotta think my posts thru better methinks.otherwise i'm going to be labeled as a crowbar expert.


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## Alf

Shivers":e96r4hwo said:


> No alf again a valid point --but when did that ever stop people making tables in this fashion.


Well I wasn't commenting on the basis of fashion or not, but merely putting forward a point the OP might want to consider. Hopelessly on topic in fact...

Cheers, Alf


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## SketchUp Guru

No matter what you want to call the end treatment, here's a method for constructing it. It is based on the method used by Garrett Hack. Glue only on center tenons. Slots in outer tenons. Wooden pegs from below don't show on top. The mortises for the outer tenons are slightly wider than the tenons.






Perhaps there is a language difference that is clouding the issue here. In the US a cleat would be a piece applied to the underside of a planked table top cross grain-wise. Enlarged screw holes would be made in the cleat to allow for movement of the planks. Cleats of this sort would be seen on planked doors and blanket chests as well.


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## Shivers

Alf":u0yl4god said:


> Shivers":u0yl4god said:
> 
> 
> 
> No alf again a valid point --but when did that ever stop people making tables in this fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I wasn't commenting on the basis of fashion or not, but merely putting forward a point the OP might want to consider. Hopelessly on topic in fact...
> 
> Cheers, Alf
Click to expand...


I'm sure he never thought of that--he'll probably be glad you brought it up.


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## spadge

Mr_Grimsdale":237txwv7 said:


> Table I made about 6 years ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have been able to monitor it regularly as I gave it to my mum.
> Sycamore boards joined with plywood slip in slots (stopped so you can't see them at the ends) various widths from 10" and about 30mm thick. Joints still absolutely tight as a drum with no splits or differential movement.
> Nowadays you expect things to go into dry, centrally heated houses. If they go in dry they will stay dry and movement will be less than in the bad old days. Still will need button fixings however, to relieve stress from whatever source.
> On the other hand - a very similar table which I know of (he copied mine) has cleated (breadboard?) ends which only occasionally line up exactly with the edges of the board. Would have been better without them. Cleated ends perhaps more necessary in a more taxing environment with bigger variations in temp and humidity, or heavy duty use of the table.
> cheers
> Jacob



Cricky seemed to have ruffled a few feathers but your second paragraph about breadboard ends only occasionally lining up is exactly the point I was trying to make. (But I am a bit confused because it does seem to contradict your earlier post when you said it wouldn't move if the wood was well seasoned?) 

I wanted to point this out so Gareth wasn't disappointed if he used breadboard ends expecting the ends always to be flush with the top. He like me is a hobbyist and its little faults like that that always jump out at you, even if others don't notice and even if it is "only" a kitchen table.

Guess you professionals have the luxury of selling on these sort of minor faults on, whilst we amatuers have to live with them:lol:

I'll get me coat!


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## wrightclan

Dave R":leasnmdj said:


> Perhaps there is a language difference that is clouding the issue here...



My thoughts exactly.

Brad


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## Anonymous

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## Roger

> cleaty wotsits if dry etc. in fact better as the breadboardy thingies


Now Jacob - are you just trying to cover all languages, reference sources and phraseology ? :wink:


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## cutting42

This is proving an excellent thread and I am getting a great education here, thanks everyone.

Largely due to DaveR's comments, I did a non cleated/breadboard version and I quite like it. I actually think it adds to the chunkyness of the top and it will certainly cut down on the amount of work involved!







I have a handmade oak dining table (not by me but a chap called Charles Matts from Norfolk/Suffolk somewhere) and that is an oval top using quarter sawn oak planks. That has not move a mill in over 15 years I think I will try and get quarter sawn planks and keep it simple.


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## SketchUp Guru

Well, I think it all works together better without those thingummies on the ends. As you say, less work, too. Quartersawn oak would be nice for this but since movement of the wood won't really be visible now, you wouldn't need to use q-sawn.

Do remember that that you still need to take movement into consideration when attaching the top to the aprons between the legs.


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## woodbloke

Alf wrote:


> One aspect that may, or may not, be relevant is a kitchen table will get crumbs, crud etc on it in the normal course of use - will a breadboard end/cleat/doohickey/whateveryouwanttocallit not provide an extra place for such crud to be lodged? Just a thought.



Making the assumption that the cleats are made on the table ends as DaveR suggests in his drawing, which is a far better method than I used, there will still be differential movement in the timber which is allowed for in the construction. However, shrinkage no matter how small, will still take place on the end cleat, and as the joining area between the cleat and the end grain is dry and will become wider over time a gradual build up of crud and grime will accumulate in the crack....eventually i think it will look like a black line across the end of the table at each end. Continual washing and cleaning of the table top will force more crud into the crack and I feel it will eventually look.....unpalatable - Rob


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## promhandicam

I'm not going to get into the cleat/breadboard thing as I thought cleats were a) used on cycling shoes (UK) or b) football / soccer boots (USA) or c) for tying off ropes on a boat! 

my suggestion would be to add some draws to the table - either on the end or the sides - I think that Jacobs table has draws down the side. useful for tablecloths / coasters etc.

Steve (who learnt a fourth definition of cleat tonight)


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## Anonymous

Steve- a fifth, I think they use cleats in climbing. :lol:


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## Shivers

you bunch of ruffians.



http://images.google.co.uk/images?clien ... a=N&tab=wi


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## cutting42

I had to try:

http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum ... tnG=Search


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## Shivers

Anything like this


http://images.google.co.uk/images?clien ... a=N&tab=wi


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## wrightclan

This academic paper...

http://cfaonline.asu.edu/haefer/classes/564/564.papers/pierceharpsichord.html

...mentions the use of breadboard end construction in the casework of an 18th century harpsichord. I don't have any idea when the first use of the term breadboard end was used in this context; but it's certainly not an invention of modern mags. As I understand it, the term does derive from its use in breadboards for bread; but it *is* a traditional technique (with both inherent advantages and inherent difficulties as disputed on this thread) and it is a traditional term (probably Yankee in derivation.) :wink: 

Brad


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## SketchUp Guru

Thank you Brad.


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## Shivers

wrightclan":1gbwmw5a said:


> This academic paper...
> 
> http://cfaonline.asu.edu/haefer/classes/564/564.papers/pierceharpsichord.html
> 
> ...mentions the use of breadboard end construction in the casework of an 18th century harpsichord. I don't have any idea when the first use of the term breadboard end was used in this context; but it's certainly not an invention of modern mags. As I understand it, the term does derive from its use in breadboards for bread; but it *is* a traditional technique (with both inherent advantages and inherent difficulties as disputed on this thread) and it is a traditional term (probably Yankee in derivation.) :wink:
> 
> Brad



that was a hard read & i couldn't spot breadboard--also is this verbatim from an original article or interpretation by the author of this white paper(c2000),the earliest book i could see noted as a ref was 1820,all the rest were from the 1970-90's,i didn't see which ref the description came from.So its a moot point,--probably the difference between the oceans.
All i can say is that in all the books i've read cleats is used as an expression,maybe i've read mostly british books.


Just located it under a slot that mentions one in 1769--as follows,

" The fronts of the cheek are finished with breadboard ends. The breadboard ends to the cheek and spine are merely hardwood pieces inlaid 8mm."

theres something wrong with 8mm being quoted from 1769


regards


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## mr

The article says 


> The fronts of the cheek are finished with breadboard ends. The breadboard ends to the cheek and spine are merely hardwood pieces inlaid 8mm into the outside surfaces.



The articles provenance though doesn't suggest that the term (rather than the technique) is one which was in use at the time of the making of the intruments described. It appears to be entirely the author's own input as far as I can tell (which is,I think, Shiver's point). In the same article other historic terms appear to be presented in italics ie "ravalement" which would suggest that the breadboard term is not thought (at least by that author) to be a historic term. 

Having said all that I can quite imagine that it's a historical term from across the pond along the rebate / rabbet lines.

Cheers Mike


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## wrightclan

Shivers,

Everything in your above post misses my point entirely on so many levels. I didn't say that the term was in use in 1769. As I said, I have no idea of the earliest use of the term. (But I can probably find references that go back to at least the early part of the 20th century). If I remember correctly, the makers of the harpsichord in question were Flemish, and wouldn't have used the term "breadboard end" or "cleat."


The author isn't a woodworker (as far as I know) and likely doesn't read woodworking magazines. The author is a musical historian. Why would a musical historian (who likely doesn't read woodworking mags) use a term like "breadboard ends" to describe the construction of a part of a harpsichord(if indeed as you contest, the term is a modern invention by woodworking mags aimed at amateurs)? Perhaps it is because the term has become a part of design lexicon (especially relating to woodwork) to such a degree that the author understands the term and believes her readers will understand the term as well.

Brad


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## Shivers

wrightclan":4lov9nsq said:


> Shivers,
> 
> Everything in your above post misses my point entirely on so many levels. I didn't say that the term was in use in 1769. As I said, I have no idea of the earliest use of the term. (But I can probably find references that go back to at least the early part of the 20th century). If I remember correctly, the makers of the harpsichord in question were Flemish, and wouldn't have used the term "breadboard end" or "cleat."
> 
> 
> The author isn't a woodworker (as far as I know) and likely doesn't read woodworking magazines. The author is a musical historian. Why would a musical historian (who likely doesn't read woodworking mags) use a term like "breadboard ends" to describe the construction of a part of a harpsichord(if indeed as you contest, the term is a modern invention by woodworking mags aimed at amateurs)? Perhaps it is because the term has become a part of design lexicon (especially relating to woodwork) to such a degree that the author understands the term and believes her readers will understand the term as well.
> 
> Brad



yep i'll go with that,that makes sense,

i agree --i just checked my fww annuals,breadboards mentioned,no cleats anywhere(this is 1-9),i stopped buyin em at that point.
All i can say is that any shop i worked in never used the b***db***d term,& some others who have worked in shops have also agreed.thats all.
I was also taught the term in college whilst doing city & guilds --so how wrong can that be.Maybe i should go back & tell my lecturer off.


regards.


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## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting.


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## Shivers

Mr_Grimsdale":2a9vmw3j said:


> sez ere in my "Joinery and Carpentry" (Corkhill Dowsett Millar Hayward Duckworth Hancock Bennetts) 1929, glossary;
> _CLEAT. A bearing block nailed under a beam. Also the wooden cramps used for jointing together long lengths. Also alternative name for a small batten._
> I only have a problem with mis-use of a word when the user thinks it is the _right_ word in some technical way, rather than it being the users best stab at finding a word which fits.
> 
> chers
> Jacob



thanks grimsdale that brought a smile,unfortunately you are quoting from a carpentry book,

ok ok so if theres no term in the carpentry book for the end thingy,& it was called a breadboard in the usa ---what on earth was it called here,now i gotta dig the rest of me books out,thanks grims sigh.

cheers.


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## wrightclan

Shivers":19tudt76 said:


> I was also taught the term in college whilst doing city & guilds --so how wrong can that be.Maybe i should go back & tell my lecturer off.
> 
> 
> regards.



Umm, Exactly at what point did I (or anyone else) slag off your use of the word "cleat?" You're the one who has been ranting on about the use of the term "breadboard end," as if it's a totally unacceptable term foisted upon unsuspecting hobbiests by evil woodworking magazines. (Just so your clear, that preceding sentence is a bit of intentional hyperbole.)

Brad


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## Shivers

wrightclan":3ei5snsl said:
 

> Shivers":3ei5snsl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was also taught the term in college whilst doing city & guilds --so how wrong can that be.Maybe i should go back & tell my lecturer off.
> 
> 
> regards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Umm, Exactly at what point did I (or anyone else) slag off your use of the word "cleat." You're the one who has been ranting on about the use of the term "breadboard end," as if it's a totally unacceptable term foisted upon unsuspecting hobbiests by evil woodworking magazines. (Just so your clear, that preceding sentence is a bit of intentional hyperbole.)
> 
> Brad
Click to expand...

Ok calm down,my lecturer was 70 yrs old & had spent 50 years in the trade,how much more of a reference should i use,should i adopt a usa term just because its in a mag,or should i try to instill some brit trade terms.


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## wrightclan

Shivers":gqyksqog said:


> Ok calm down,my lecturer was 70 yrs old & had spent 50 years in the trade,how much more of a reference should i use,should i adopt a usa term just because its in a mag,or should i try to instill some brit trade terms.



How can I make this more clear? *I do not have a problem with the word "cleat."* I am sure you are perfectly correct in your usage of the term. You however *are not correct* in your assumption that "breadboard end" is a recent invention of woodworking magazines.

Brad


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## SketchUp Guru

> Shivers
> 
> 
> Master cabinetmaker/designer/shopfitter.
> 
> _Guest57 should read some books(pre-fww)
> A good tradesman doesn't rest on his laurels'._



Shivers, I think you should change your signature line. This is inappropriate and far from professional.


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## Shivers

I thought that had been covered before--yes i do recognize that its not a new term,i have a problem when its used on a very large table,as the image of the expression hardly fits the physical appearance ,Ie--a refectory tabletop hardly looks like a breadboard does it, maybe our recent posts have been misinterpretations .

_____________________
done dave
-----------------------------

regards.


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## Anonymous

You must enter a message when posting.


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## Shivers

A good tradesman doesn't rest on his laurels'.


not sure if thats misplaced--but i dont want to start up another thread on it--grin.

i had a discussion with others on this a few weeks ago --apparently the use of the apostrophe is also open to debate,the disscussion was about the use of english,i sat back as obviously im not an english grammer major(which has been pointed out more than once lol).

apparently even the english teachers cant get it right these days.


http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/


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## Alf

At the moment I'm wondering what laurels possess that a good tradesman doesn't want to rest on. They're not particularly spiky are they? :-k

Cheers, Alf


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## Shivers

Alf":271c7cqr said:


> At the moment I'm wondering what laurels possess that a good tradesman doesn't want to rest on. They're not particularly spiky are they? :-k
> 
> Cheers, Alf



My psychic abilities tell me to rest on em at mo.


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## Anonymous

edited by mr G


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## wrightclan

Mr_Grimsdale":14qzcmgt said:


> Alf":14qzcmgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> snip
> I'm wondering what laurels possess
> snip
> 
> 
> 
> Hardys' ?
Click to expand...


Stans' :?: 

Brad


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## Shivers

Ah ha --a gangup,nice lot.


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## Alf

That'll be another fine mess you've got yourself into then, Shivers...? :wink:


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## Shivers

Alf":3gpifxjh said:


> That'll be another fine mess you've got yourself into then, Shivers...? :wink:



you're a sharp one,yep it happens to the best of us.
It's a matter of fitting in with a clique or not,i know where i am.
Peer pressure is so hard these days.


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## DomValente

I think Alf is deliberatley being goaded to speed up postings, I don't like it and if it doesn't stop I'll start stirring up the whole cleated,breadboard,thingamijig.


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## Shivers

DomValente":1cz767m6 said:


> I think Alf is deliberatley being goaded to speed up postings, I don't like it and if it doesn't stop I'll start stirring up the whole cleated,breadboard,thingamijig.



LOL


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## Alf

Did I not mention how much I was going to enjoy playing merry hell with my average post count? Oh dear, silly me... Let's see, in the last few days: 11, 13, 12, 13, 14. Time to go very quiet yet, d'you think? :twisted:


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## DomValente

No, no, you're right on target thank you very much.


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## Sgian Dubh

Having dropped into this thread late through a redirection from over at the General forum, I just thought I'd mention that 'breadboard' ends, the American nomenclature that's causing all the stooshie here and 'cleated' ends are also known as *clamping* or *clamped* ends.

Just thought I'd mention it as I don't think anyone else has thought to do so. My source is Hayward, C (1970) _Antique or Fake._ I think he's been mentioned once or twice before in this thread. Slainte.


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