# Workshop proximaty to garden boundry?



## Mike Saville (16 Aug 2007)

Hi All,

I've checked my local council planning website but can't find an answer to this question. 

I'm planning to build a new workshop in the next few months. The workshop will be at the back of my garden which borders a rail line. The workshop will be 35meters from my house and at least 50+ meters from any neighbouring property so no problem there. 

The width of my garden at the back is 7.6 meters. If however I have to allow for a 1 meter clearance between workshop and sides/back of garden then my max width will be 5.6 meters. 

Length is not an issue as I could make the workshop anything up to around 15meters long. 

I'd like to try and achieve a squarer shape for the shop as I think this will offer a more flexible layout. I think the ideal would be 7 x 9. But this would depend on how close I could go to side/back boundaries.

Hope some of the other workshop builders can help. I'm trying to do as much background research as poss before going to have an informal chat with the local council in a week or 2.

TIA,


----------



## mailee (16 Aug 2007)

Well don't quote me on this as I thin it is up to the local planning office but I think it is 1 mtr from any adjoining boundry. Anyone else add any more?


----------



## superunknown (16 Aug 2007)

I'm fairly sure its 1m too 

This is a helpful site for this type of thing 


http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/


----------



## ike (16 Aug 2007)

Tis 1 meter unless the building is totally of non-combustible material.

5.6m is a wide shed. :shock:


----------



## lugo35 (16 Aug 2007)

wouldnt worry niebours are far enough away not to bother them, unless you have had words :wink: .
but if its permanant may cause problems if you sell up.
recently moved house old shed was timber framed with steel sheets. i overlooked the small matter of getting permition from railway board because it was over top of a tunnel . luckily didnt cause to much bother


----------



## Lord Nibbo (16 Aug 2007)

I had an extension built about 12 years ago, I seem to recall the 1mtr from the boundry fence only applied between actual houses to stop fire spread. The workshop/double garage I had built several years ago had full planning permission and passed building regs ok, it's built within 12" of my fence.

Take note of the far end and how close it is to the fence






I'm also pretty sure the 1mtr only applies to permanent buildings not a workshop made from wood.  But then I could be wrong


----------



## Mike Saville (17 Aug 2007)

Thanks for the replies so far. I had a look through the garden law site and it seems that most sheds there are built right up to the boundary.

This workshop will be situated against 3 boundaries. Over the back boundary is about 5 meters of brambles before you reach the railway line. To the right is a stone wall around 6ft in height. The left only has a chain link fence - but also a very friendly neighbour  

I can't remember where I read about the 1 meter distance and suspect it may well be in relation to a permanent structure . . . . .

I'm reluctant to go the the planners for advice until I can firm this up a bit. My dealings with local councils in the past leave me less than confidant in their knowledge of their own rules . . . . . .


----------



## Jake (17 Aug 2007)

If the floor area is less than 15m2 (and the building does not contain sleeping accomodation!) it is totally exempt from building regulations and there are no additional requirements to comply with.

If the floor area is more than 15m2 but less than 30m2 (and the building does not contain sleeping accomodation) then the building is exempt from building regulations providing *either* (a) it is more than 1m from any boundary *or* (b) it is made substantially from non-combustible materials.

Lord N - your blockwork garage is substantially non-combustible!


----------



## ike (17 Aug 2007)

> I've checked my local council planning website



Just occurred Mike, why not phone the planning dept. They are usually very helpful with this type of enquiry. 

cheers,

ike


----------



## Jake (17 Aug 2007)

The boundary thing is a building control issue, not a planning issue.

Building control is usually a separate department -and they'll be able to tell you that the relevant rules are as per my post above.

The planning rules are well summarised here:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/englan ... 36906.html


----------



## ike (17 Aug 2007)

> The boundary thing is a building control issue, not a planning issue.



I think Planning and Building control departments do talk to each other.


----------



## Jake (17 Aug 2007)

No doubt they do, Ike, but in my experience they will not speak for each other.


----------



## stevel (18 Aug 2007)

Here in Kernow, they don't seem to know much about each other either in my experience.


Steve


----------



## iwood (18 Aug 2007)

I've recently looked into the same issue for my own workshop project and Jake's remarks above are spot on.

Less than 15m2 and you don't need to worry which is why you see many garden sheds built right up to fence. 15-30m2 is premitted development (providing you don't cover too much garden or don't live in a flat) and so not subject to planning. It is however caught by building regs and needs to be more than the metre from the boundaries to escape further scrutiny. The issue is fire hazard.

More than 30m2 and I think you'll need approval from both planning and building control regardless of where it goes. Building control are unlikely to let you put a wooden building within a metre of the neighbours fence though may not mind about the railway so long as the back fence belongs to you.

The temporary structure things doesn't cover sheds. These rules are for marquees, stages and the like. Things that are only up for a few weeks max.


----------



## Gary (18 Aug 2007)

iwood":1yx7pgow said:


> The temporary structure things doesn't cover sheds. These rules are for marquees, stages and the like. Things that are only up for a few weeks max.



I thought wooden structures like sheds were classed as "temporary structures" as they could be readily moved. As with site huts and portocabin sales offices on building sites which are often in place for several months.


----------



## iwood (19 Aug 2007)

Just looked up the Lambeth website which defines a temporary structure as "a building which is not intended to be erected for more than 28 days".

While I was there I looked again at the planning pages and I was wrong on my previous post. A shed bigger than 30m2 doesn't necessarily need planning but it DOES need approval from building regs. 

The planning limit is the height restriction. 4m for an apex roof, 3m for a single pitched roof. You might find these limits hard to adhere to in a really large squarish shed.


----------



## Keith Smith (19 Aug 2007)

The one metre rule is if you want to erect a shed without planning permission. Closer than 1m to the boundary and will normally need planning approval. My workshop (built as a stables before I bought the house) is right up to the boundary and the guttering overhangs the neighbour's land :-$


----------



## Jake (19 Aug 2007)

I shall go and find a boundary wall to bash my head against soon.


----------



## Mike Saville (20 Aug 2007)

OK, so my plan of being armed with some clear facts before I visit the planners seems to be in tatters . .  

I'll speak with my local planners and let you know what their verdict is . . . .

Thanks for the input.


----------



## cambournepete (20 Aug 2007)

Try and get something in writing from them if you can.
That way it's rather more awkward for them if they try and change their minds later...


----------



## Jake (20 Aug 2007)

JimJam":2rqh3uq9 said:


> OK, so my plan of being armed with some clear facts before I visit the planners seems to be in tatters . .
> 
> I'll speak with my local planners and let you know what their verdict is . . . .
> 
> Thanks for the input.



OK, I'll have one more try. 

Read my two posts above - one summarises the very clear facts on building control regs. The other provides a link to the very clear facts about planning permission.

Ignore any other well-meant misinformation which is in disagreement with the above! 

The boundary issue is a building regs issue and applies if your floor area is between 15 and 30 m2. Under 15m2, building regs do not apply. over 30m2 building regs apply in full. Between 15m and 30m2, building regs do not apply, but you must either build substantially in non-combustible materials (i.e. not timber framed) or you must build more than 1m from the boundary.

I can't summarise the planning regs more neatly than on the link in my post.


----------



## Shadowfax (20 Aug 2007)

I have a simple answer for you. 


Listen to what Jake is telling you!


Failing that: Listen to what Jake is telling you!


There really is no mystery.
Building Regulations and Planning Regulations are not related, at all.
Again: Listen to what Jake is telling you!

SF


----------



## nickson71 (20 Aug 2007)

Shadowfax":3ewqij3v said:


> I have a simple answer for you.
> 
> 
> Listen to what Jake is telling you!
> ...



as above 

Listen to Jake


----------



## Keith Smith (21 Aug 2007)

Jake you should come and talk to my planning department.

I've just spent the last 18 months trying to get permission to put up a garden shed. They insist I get full planning consent, that is full drawings to county, district and parish councils costing me just under £200, if I want to build a wooden shed of greater than 10 cubic meters.

10 cubic metres sounds a lot but is basically a very small shed. 

I've written so many letters they are sick of me but they won't relent, £200 for permission to put up a garden shed is ridiculous and I still have no shed :evil: What I quoted above is what I've been told by them.

I have to deal with the local planning department a lot and it's my experience that the planners don't know their elbow from any other part of their anatomy and rules are arbitrarily interpreted depending on the particular planner.


That said your advice is sound

Keith


----------



## Mike Saville (21 Aug 2007)

So if I want to go closer to 1m from the boundary and have more then 30msq then I need planning permission?


----------



## nickson71 (21 Aug 2007)

ignore this one ........ I mixed up planning and building control briefly




EDITED AS I GOT IT WRONG


----------



## Jake (21 Aug 2007)

Keith Smith":152g5367 said:


> Jake you should come and talk to my planning department.... They insist I get full planning consent, that is full drawings to county, district and parish councils costing me just under £200, if I want to build a wooden shed of greater than 10 cubic meters...



The rules for PP were on the link I gave in my other post. I'll post htem here because this seems to be causing some confusion (that's not aimed at you). 

You need PP if:

_1. You want to put up a building or structure which would be nearer to any highway than the nearest part of the "original house", unless there would be at least 20 metres between the new building and any highway. The term "highway" includes public roads, footpaths, bridleways and byways.

*or* 2. More than half the area of land around the "original house" would be covered by additions or other buildings.

*or* 3. The building or structure is not to be used for domestic purposes and is to be used instead, for example, for parking a commercial vehicle, running a business or for storing goods in connection with a business.

*or* 4 If your house is a listed building, and you want to put up a building or structure with a volume of more than 10 cubic metres.

*or* 5. If you live in a Conservation Area, a National Park, an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, or the Broads, and you want to put up a building or structure with a volume of more than 10 cubic metres (though it might be allowable as an extension)

*or* 6. You want to put up a building or structure which is more than 3 metres high, or more than 4 metres high if it has a ridged roof. (Measure from the highest ground next to it.)_

The words "original house" have a particular meaning - it is the original volume of the house when the planning system was put in place (1940s?), ignoring extensions and additions after that date - all of which eat into the allowance.

*Note: in all cases, if your new building would have a volume over 10 cubic metres, and come within 5 metres of the house, it would be treated as an extension. *

I suspect your issue, Keith, is either that your shed is over 10m2 and within 5m of the house, or you are in a conservation area.

BUT: this is all planning and has nothing at all to do with the 1m boundary rule which is puirely and simply a building control issue and nothing to do with planning.


----------



## Jake (21 Aug 2007)

JimJam":39lujm8t said:


> So if I want to go closer to 1m from the boundary and have more then 30msq then I need planning permission?



No - in that case you need to comply with the * building regulations*.


----------



## Keith Smith (21 Aug 2007)

Jake":2eiel1lz said:


> I suspect your issue, Keith, is either that your shed is over 10m2 and within 5m of the house, or you are in a conservation area.



No and no :roll: but

I do live in a listed building so rule 4 applies........but


The planning dept have written to me several times stating that the reasons they want full planning consent is nothing to do with the fact I live in a listed building. :? 

I'm going to build one less than 10 cubic metres :lol:


----------



## Jake (21 Aug 2007)

Let's start at the beginning then:



JimJam":2nleqpxf said:


> Hi All,



Hello. I'm going to assume your workshop is your 7m x 9m ideal - in most cases it is not critical, but it is certain that it will exceed the de minimis 10m3 allowance which applies in all circumstances - so you need to ensure that you satisfy all the other exemptions. 

I'm also going to assume that you are not in a Conservation Area, Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty or a National Park and that your house is not a Listed Building? If you are in any of those things, you need planning permission for anything bigger than 10m3 so the rest of this post is redundant.

I'm then going to assume this is for domestic use - if it is for a business, you need planning permission.



 JimJam":2nleqpxf said:


> I'm planning to build a new workshop in the next few months. The workshop will be at the back of my garden which borders a rail line.



Railway line is good, as it means there cannot be a 'highway' along the back, so the workshop should be further from the highway than your existing house. 

The only difficulty might be with footpaths, bridleways etc. Are there any of those in the land adjacent to your garden? 

If not, then you meet the 'no part of the workshop shall be closer to a highway than the existing house' exemption.



JimJam":2nleqpxf said:


> The workshop will be 35meters from my house



That's good - it will not automatically be classed as an extension then, as it is more than 5m from your house. 

In addition, if the workshop is 35 metres from your house then it is probably safe to assume that even after building a 7m x 9m workshop on it, less than 50% of your curtilage (front and back gardens, driveways etc, i.e. all land around your house) will be covered with building.



JimJam":2nleqpxf said:


> and at least 50+ meters from any neighbouring property so no problem there.



In fact, that's irrelevant.



JimJam":2nleqpxf said:


> The width of my garden at the back is 7.6 meters. If however I have to allow for a 1 meter clearance between workshop and sides/back of garden then my max width will be 5.6 meters.



That is irrelevant from a planning perspective - I'll deal with building control below.



JimJam":2nleqpxf said:


> Length is not an issue as I could make the workshop anything up to around 15meters long. I'd like to try and achieve a squarer shape for the shop as I think this will offer a more flexible layout. I think the ideal would be 7 x 9. But this would depend on how close I could go to side/back boundaries.



Proximity to boundary is irrelevant from a planning perspective - I'll deal with building control below.

The only thing that you need to think about for planning permission - assuming my assumptions above are all correct is to design a workshop which satisfies the requirement that the workshop is * not more than 3 metres high, or not more than 4 metres high if it has a ridged roof. (Measure from the highest ground next to it.) *

The shape of your workshop will affect that, if you want a ridged roof. If it going to a be flat roof, then you are OK whatever. If you want a ridged roof, then you need to make sure that you can get your roof ridge in below 4m - whether by using materials that allow a very shallow slope (metal) or by reducing the width of the workshop. 

However, if you want a wide workshop with a ridged roof in materials that mean the ridge will end up more than 4m high - off you go to planning.

OK, so that's planning out of the way.

Building control - you smash the 30m2 floor area with a 7m x 9m (63m2) workshop so you will need building regulations approval of the workshop whatever you do (unless you reduce the size by over half). The rule about exemption from building regs and 1m from the boundary is irrelevant. 

However, Building Control will probably insist that either you build more than a metre from the boundary or that you build substantially in non-combustible materials. Give them a call and discuss that with them.


----------



## Jake (21 Aug 2007)

Keith Smith":39p4tlx0 said:


> I do live in a listed building so rule 4 applies........but
> 
> 
> The planning dept have written to me several times stating that the reasons they want full planning consent is nothing to do with the fact I live in a listed building. :?



Have they given the actual reason for their decision then? Not that it really matters as the listed building thing stuffs you anyway.



Keith Smith":39p4tlx0 said:


> I'm going to build one less than 10 cubic metres :lol:



Very useful!

There is nothing in those exemptions which prevent you constructing a series of sub-10m3 sheds, each of which meets the exemption on its own - at least until the series covers more than 50% of your curtilage. They could be quite close together!


----------



## Keith Smith (21 Aug 2007)

Jake":1k46xub3 said:


> There is nothing in those exemptions which prevent you constructing a series of sub-10m3 sheds, each of which meets the exemption on its own - at least until the series covers more than 50% of your curtilage. They could be quite close together!



I probably wouldn't get away with that because I'm caught by "the erection of any free standing structure within the curtilage of the property shall not be carried out without the express written consent of the Local Planning Authority" they think of everything :roll: .

Looking at all the paperwork again it refers to Part 1,Class E, clause (f) as the reason I need planning, this appears to be something to do with the curtilage of listed buildings so despite the fact they told me it wasn't because I was listed it appears it is. Strangely they let my neighbour (also listed) build a very large shed and greenhouse a couple of years back and didn't require planning for either, they just gave him written consent :?

I have of course pointed that out to them in our communications :twisted: but it hasn't done me any good


----------



## kafkaian (21 Aug 2007)

Keith Smith":2zh76jdj said:


> I have of course pointed that out to them in our communications :twisted: but it hasn't done me any good



And don't argue the toss with them because if you do the chances are, like with some councils, they will maladminister to get the right result for them and the wrong one for you. Remember, you can't arrest a council officer for deception, but they'll come down hard on a thorny complainant at every opportunity.

Jake - thanks for excellent summary. This has helped me!


----------



## Keith Smith (21 Aug 2007)

kafkaian":3ewyyywq said:


> Keith Smith":3ewyyywq said:
> 
> 
> > I have of course pointed that out to them in our communications :twisted: but it hasn't done me any good
> ...



Too late, it's currently taken me 2 months to get a letter stating that they want more information (7 pages) before they will let me change a pair of French doors, like for like too :? .

I agree, Jakes post is excellent, it could do with being made part of a knowledge base; this sort of question often comes up.


----------



## Jake (21 Aug 2007)

Keith Smith":35h3g44o said:


> I probably wouldn't get away with that because I'm caught by "the erection of any free standing structure within the curtilage of the property shall not be carried out without the express written consent of the Local Planning Authority" they think of everything :roll: .



Is that a listed building consent thing?



Keith Smith":35h3g44o said:


> Looking at all the paperwork again it refers to Part 1,Class E, clause (f) as the reason I need planning, this appears to be something to do with the curtilage of listed buildings so despite the fact they told me it wasn't because I was listed it appears it is.



Yup, it is.

_ Development not permitted
E.1 Development is not permitted by Class E if—
(f) in the case of any article 1(5) land or land within the curtilage of a listed building, it would consist of the provision, alteration or improvement of a building with a cubic content greater than 10 cubic metres._

That's a quote from the General Permitted Development Order, which is the relevant Statutory Instrument: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_1 ... m#IDARND3D


----------



## Keith Smith (21 Aug 2007)

> Is that a listed building consent thing?



No I don't think so. I think it is a condition attached to the original permission granted to convert the barns to houses.


----------



## Jake (21 Aug 2007)

Further to this *Note: in all cases, if your new building would have a volume over 10 cubic metres, and come within 5 metres of the house, it would be treated as an extension. * 

...

and at the risk of confusing things even further (*this has no application to the OP's case*) it might be worth adding on the hoops you have to go through (in planning) to see whether something which is deemed to be an extension is in fact still permitted development (if it is, you do not need planning permission). 

If the workshop is within the 5m of your house and over 10m3 then it is classed as an extension and you have to follow the relevant volume rules, which look at the cubic volume of the original house (when planning started, can't remember the date, 1940s?). The following rules give you your permitted development volume:

a) for a terraced house, or any house in a conservation area, AOB or national park (or Norfolk broads) 50 cubic metres or 10% of original volume, whichever is the greater,

(b) for other houses, 70 cubic metres or 15% of original volume, whichever is the greater,

subject to an overriding maximum of 115 cubic metres;

Then you subtract the volume of all existing extensions and additions which added to volume of the house since the 1940s. What is left is your remaining allowance, and if your workshop is less m3 than the remaining allowance, you don't need PP. If it is more, off you go to planning again.


----------



## Jake (21 Aug 2007)

Keith Smith":13plml6z said:


> No I don't think so. I think it is a condition attached to the original permission granted to convert the barns to houses.



Ah, you are thoroughly stuffed then.


----------



## Keith Smith (21 Aug 2007)

Jake":13y78yvo said:


> Keith Smith":13y78yvo said:
> 
> 
> > No I don't think so. I think it is a condition attached to the original permission granted to convert the barns to houses.
> ...




Yep, like the fat turkey waiting for Christmas


----------



## Mike Saville (22 Aug 2007)

Jake":23xnuozv said:


> Let's start at the beginning then:



Hi Jake, I really, really appreciate you taking the time to make this post. Not everyone would be so patient or generous with thier time - so many thanks.

Your assumptions - suggestions are all correct and I shall go and have a chat to building control. 

One solution for me may be to move the workshop up the garden a bit away from the rear boundary. The 7.6m at the back is the narrowest point and the garden gets much wider as it comes towards the house (18m). I'd like to avoid this though as the ground behind the workshop would then probably not be used to full effect.

Thanks once again.


----------

