# New plane is bladeless



## Chipmonk (26 Aug 2020)

Hi there,

I just bought a 'vintage' Record 778 plans from an ebay seller. It was supposed to be brand new, boxed, unopened, but it's arrived and has clearly been opened (the advert pics showed it open on table) and the blade is missing. Everything else is in perfect order. The seller is trying to tell me that these planes don't come with blades and she has 3 other unopened boxes that don't have blades in. She's been very polite, so I don't want to call her a liar outright, but this is plainly BS. I've bought a few planes (as has my dad) and we've never had the come without blades (brand new or second hand). I said buying a plane without a blade is like buying a car without wheels, or mixer without a whisk, to which she agreed, but said the joiner in her shop says they don't come with them.

I am 99% sure she's trying to pass the buck, but want to know if anyone has any input on this. I already spent 2 hours looking for replacement blades, and suggested I'd keep it if I could find one, otherwise I'll back it.

I can still send it back if it's too much hassle, since it wasn't cheap enough to justify getting a poor quality replica blade, if that is all that is available.

1) Have you ever bought a brand new plane that didn't have a blade?
2) Do you know where I can get an original Record tungsten-steel blade for the 778?  FWIW: The 078 blade won't fit a 778.

Be great if anyone can put my mind at rest on this one. 

Cheers!


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## --Tom-- (26 Aug 2020)

Google gives stock here:








Record Rabbet Plane Blade no. 778


One original near full length Record blade designed to fit the Record 778 rebate plane.Please note: - photograph may differ very slightly from actual item as we have more than 1 in stock.- One cutter supplied.




www.oldtools.co.uk


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## --Tom-- (26 Aug 2020)

Or a Ray Iles replacement which are normally seen as better than originals ie it’s not a poor quality replacement









Replacement Plane Iron RI015 - To fit Record 778 rebate plane


We stock a wide range of replacement plane irons produced in the UK by our sister company Ray Iles Edge Tools. Always razor sharp and a perfect match




www.oldtoolstore.co.uk


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## Chipmonk (26 Aug 2020)

--Tom-- said:


> Google gives stock here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cheers, Tom, but that place is actually out of stock. I feel like I've exhausted all the easy to find places with searches for 'record 778' and the like.


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## Chipmonk (26 Aug 2020)

Ah, that Ray Iles one is the one i've bookmarked for possible purchase. it seems to be 01 grade steel, which isn't as good as Tungsten (so I think), but is better than the bulk of replicas I've seen.

update: I should say that that link you provided to the Ray iles one doesn't go to the same RI one I thought it did. The old toolstore seems like they sell the same one you can get everywhere. None of them mention the steel composite/breakdown, so I assume the worst.

This is the RI one I found:









Replacement Plane Blade - 778


A British made alternative replacement Record 778 plane blade constructed from 01 high carbon steel.




www.toolnut.co.uk


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## Droogs (26 Aug 2020)

I've never had a plane arrive without a blade, even if NOS unless I have specifically bought something without a blade (as i wanted the body) and it has been stated as being so.


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## Just4Fun (26 Aug 2020)

I have never heard of a new plane being supplied without a blade. My Record 778 certainly came with one.


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## Chipmonk (26 Aug 2020)

Droogs said:


> I've never had a plane arrive without a blade, even if NOS unless I have specifically bought something without a blade (as i wanted the body) and it has been stated as being so.


Thanks, Droogs. I was starting to doubt myself, but it seems like a half-pineappled attempt to get rid of some old stock.

edit: hahaha, pineappled! Nice swear replacement.


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## Chipmonk (26 Aug 2020)

OMG, I've just realised I've been conned. Looking at the image on the box, it's not even the same bloomin plane! The original Record 778 has a bare iron support exposed just behind the iron, going down to the shoe. This one cuts in (away) from the side and is painted. It's also lighter blue. I saw some 'vintage' 778s that had the raw iron side and just figured this was a different year, but the fact it doesn't even match the box is a major clue. Absolute jokers.

This is a copy and definitely not 'vintage'. Someone has re-boxed it. Grah!


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## Trevanion (26 Aug 2020)

Chipmonk said:


> This is a copy and definitely not 'vintage'. Someone has re-boxed it. Grah!



I reckon this is a very modern (IE in the last 5 years or so) Record Irwin 778, so it's not so much a copy as it is just a modern (cheaper bits) version of the old ones. It should come with a blade though!


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## billw (26 Aug 2020)

I have noticed that the word "vintage" is used on a lot of tool listings, often with a blatant disregard for the truth!


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## Chipmonk (26 Aug 2020)

Trevanion said:


> I reckon this is a very modern (IE in the last 5 years or so) Record Irwin 778, so it's not so much a copy as it is just a modern (cheaper bits) version of the old ones. It should come with a blade though!


Cheers, mate! That's confirmed what I've been suspecting (been trying to figure out when and where it is from since last night on and off). It's clearly not even close to 'vintage' (I know that just means 'a period of high quality', but considering quality has been going downhill for decades, anything after 2000 isn't vintage to me). I wouldn't mind if it was new and high quality, but I can literally buy a new version for £15 more and get a warranty, so there's not value in this unless it is actually the vintage stuff.

The iron seems like it's probably cheap, but I can't say why. The paint is plastered on like a letterbox and the lack of blade is suspicious (despite the assertion that all 3 of their stock is like that). I've started the return just now.


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## Chipmonk (26 Aug 2020)

billw said:


> I have noticed that the word "vintage" is used on a lot of tool listings, often with a blatant disregard for the truth!


Amen to that! I've spent several hours now looking through this mound of horse manure and I can safely say that at least 50% of 'vintage' is either re-boxed newish stock or simply battered to bits.


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## Lons (26 Aug 2020)

Presumably you paid by paypal which would make getting a refund fairly simple even if not then ebay will sort it out. I wouldn't accept that it looks like a blatant rip off.


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## Bod (27 Aug 2020)

Chipmonk said:


> Cheers, mate! That's confirmed what I've been suspecting (been trying to figure out when and where it is from since last night on and off). It's clearly not even close to 'vintage' (I know that just means 'a period of high quality', but considering quality has been going downhill for decades, anything after 2000 isn't vintage to me). I wouldn't mind if it was new and high quality, but I can literally buy a new version for £15 more and get a warranty, so there's not value in this unless it is actually the vintage stuff.
> 
> The iron seems like it's probably cheap, but I can't say why. The paint is plastered on like a letterbox and the lack of blade is suspicious (despite the assertion that all 3 of their stock is like that). I've started the return just now.



That "paint" looks very much like powder coating, if it is then the tool is weeks old, rather than decades.

Bod


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## Jarno (27 Aug 2020)

It is quite a new version of this plane, but the box could have told you that. But, yeah, it should have been delivered with a blade.
A fine plane though, might need a little bit more work to get it finely tuned.

Did the ebay auction have clear pictures?


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## Daniel2 (27 Aug 2020)

The problem with the word "_vintage_", is that it lacks precise definition, in contexts other than wine.
It is very subjective. We all know what it's intended meaning is, but exactly what is, and what isn't "vintage, is less clear.
Having said that, sellers do abuse and exaggerate it, to the point, these days, of rendering it meaningless.
*I would pull them up on it, in this example.*
It is clearly not vintage, so their item description is completely misleading, whether it was their intention or not.
Vocabulary exists for a reason. Just gaily throwing in random words because they look attractive has, unfortunately, become somewhat of a blight recently. 
Return it & tell them why.
Hopefully they're decent people.

ATB,
Daniel
PS; You could also suggest to them that, while they're editing the word vintage out of the description, they could also make it clear that it is supplied without a blade


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## Jarno (27 Aug 2020)

I buy on eBay regularly, and there are certain words that people think mean something, but actually do not. "Vintage" is one of them, I just ignore that type of words, same with "good condition", facts not fluff.
But yeah, if you are not happy with it, and it was misrepresented, return it.
Plenty of other 778's on ebay (or old Woden).


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## Jackbequick (27 Aug 2020)

My first impression is 'Indian reproduction' recently manufactured el-cheapo not vintage quality...though the original is only about what??... 70 years old. That the person had three should have alerted you also (maybe 3 or 23 or 33? ex India rubbish) Actully the boxing itself suggests this is not from a reputable organisation. It would have been decent had the advertisement said 'no blade' but on the same score...you would have been wise to ask. There are some extremely high quality tool makers today... Stanley is no longer one...but this unit you bought is not one. Was it costly?...It still might do your job with a blade.

I suggest if you look at the Amazon advertisement (Irwin Record Rebate Plane Length 8-1/2-inch: Amazon.com.au: Home Improvement) you will find the tool supplied with a blade. Your vendor may be selling the blades separately or did an e cheapo deal on some without it, I suggest the former.

The advertisement ehn becomes ambiguous 
*Product description *

*Product Description*
Record 778 rebate plane

The Record 778 rebate plane has two cutter positions, one for normal rebating work and a forward position for planing into corners and difficult positions.
The adjustable fence supplied can be used on either side of the plane to accurately control the size of the rebate.
Cast iron body with accurately ground base.
Five thread depth adjusting screw for precision control of shaving thickness.

Length 8.1/2in/215mm.
Cutter Width 1.1/2in/38mm.
Type. Rebate.
*Set Contains:*
1 x Rebate Plane

The cutter is not mentioned in "Set contains". To me this indicates deceptive practice. It see s possible your vendor bought from Amazon or India or somewhere, several planes to re-sell at profit on eBay.

I'm stronger in opinion than Jarno...if the blade was a part of the advertisement and if not excluded, is your entitlement. The photos from you are the eBay photos?...If the original photos showed a blade I'd send it back politely and explain the dilemma and error and if it escalates make as much fuss with eBay as it needs to get it retracted. Don't wait….or it will be too late...demand the recovery now....

I also have no idea why anyone is talking about 'tungsten' blades...handplane blades are in all my experience with old blades, high carbon steel. Today?...who knows...popout rubbish from India isn't going to have fine blades and I wouldn't even contemplate a 'tungsten' handplane blade.. 

If the blade was not shown in eBay photos or listed in'what you get' you can only protest the tool is incomplete. I do not agree you cannot/will not find an original blade but if only a recently made one it will likely be a mass production quality...likely to need to often be sharpened. 

Record 'of old' made good tools...to me this is just junk by comparison and looking at the thing. You can see more on Record No. 778 Duplex Rabbet & Filletster Plane

Lie Nielsen...top tool makers did supply the blades so somemust be 'around' Lie-Nielsen Blade for Record 778 Rabbet Plane. "Tooled up" UK also sell the blades (be quick?) at 17 pounds and 95 pende sterling Record Replacement Iron for 778 Plane | Spare Irons

Now you have all the info to make a decision...but do not procrastinate...decide and act.



Note that the fillister is not an old tool...designed in 1950's but there are other ways of skinning the cat for the same outcome using older tools. I you get nowhere or let it drag on...do you have a use for it? If so use it until it breaks.


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## Jackbequick (27 Aug 2020)

some wise words from you too, jarno...I read after my own dissertation. (Chuckles)


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## Chipmonk (27 Aug 2020)

Lons said:


> Presumably you paid by paypal which would make getting a refund fairly simple even if not then ebay will sort it out. I wouldn't accept that it looks like a blatant rip off.



Yeah, now the 'new car smell' has worn off, I can see it for what it is. A cheap version in an old box. I did pay by paypal, and they've accepted a return, but I'm tempted to out them as a hooky practice.




Bod said:


> That "paint" looks very much like powder coating, if it is then the tool is weeks old, rather than decades.
> 
> Bod



Yeah, I was wondering about that. The paint is layered on so thick, it's also covering a code of some sort (CF2?) above the No.788 stamp and I haven't seen that on any 'real' vintage pics. The record-planes site has a bunch of pics of this plane (among classier, older ones), but I don't think they are very picky about the gallery, or maybe this is really just a new, crappy version of the once-great brand.



Jarno said:


> It is quite a new version of this plane, but the box could have told you that. But, yeah, it should have been delivered with a blade.
> A fine plane though, might need a little bit more work to get it finely tuned.
> 
> Did the ebay auction have clear pictures?



The box is definitely for a vintage unit, it's 70s/80s or thereabouts. The unit obviously isn't, though, now I've had a good look. No way it would survive 40 years without tarnishing. The build quality seems OK, but I can't shake this feeling the iron was low grade. It had a chip near the mouth and had this' fibrous' nature I associate with cheap metals. Can really describe it any better than that. 



Daniel2 said:


> The problem with the word "_vintage_", is that it lacks precise definition, in contexts other than wine.
> It is very subjective. We all know what it's intended meaning is, but exactly what is, and what isn't "vintage, is less clear.
> Having said that, sellers do abuse and exaggerate it, to the point, these days, of rendering it meaningless.
> *I would pull them up on it, in this example.*
> ...



Yeah, it's a weasel word nowadays. Any year can be a good year, but unless they've had an uptick in production quality (newsflash: "quality declines since brand saturation") then the term isn't valid. I don't believe you can call something vintage unless it's an improvement on or equal to a previous vintage period, same goes for wines, too!



Jackbequick said:


> My first impression is 'Indian reproduction' recently manufactured el-cheapo not vintage quality...though the original is only about what??... 70 years old. That the person had three should have alerted you also (maybe 3 or 23 or 33? ex India rubbish) Actully the boxing itself suggests this is not from a reputable organisation. It would have been decent had the advertisement said 'no blade' but on the same score...you would have been wise to ask. There are some extremely high quality tool makers today... Stanley is no longer one...but this unit you bought is not one. Was it costly?...It still might do your job with a blade.
> 
> I suggest if you look at the Amazon advertisement (Irwin Record Rebate Plane Length 8-1/2-inch: Amazon.com.au: Home Improvement) you will find the tool supplied with a blade. Your vendor may be selling the blades separately or did an e cheapo deal on some without it, I suggest the former.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I thought that "we have 3 brand new unopened boxes and they are all the same and none have blades" was really fishy. I suggested they'd been ripped off. 

The earlier versions of the 778 were marked as tungsten blades on the packaging. You can see a few of them on the record-planes.com page for the 778. Adding Tn seems like it keeps the edge better.

Wow, I didn't know LN had made some 778 blades. I'd like to get my hands on one, but guess they'd be around $50 or more. I found quite a few places selling those ones from the TooledUp link, but they look cheap and there's no specification on the steel (on any site!), so I'm assuming it's rubbish. There's only ever 1 pic, never any specs and they all use the same, unhelpful description. Too many smells for me. Also, you can find the exact same one (according to identical pic) for £9, so that site is expensive.

I've already started the return process, just boxing it back up. It cost me £75 and I know I can get the one from Amazon, which looks to me like the same one for £85 and that has a blade. I wouldn't buy it, because I can't be pineappled to sharpen a blade every 50 feet.

Here's the link to the ebay ad, btw. Now I'm looking at it, it's obviously they tried to hide the fact it wasn't the same plane and that it was missing the blade. The lady has been really friendly and polite, so either I'm a cynical git or this is how they keep their 100% rating. I'm going with the latter.









VINTAGE RECORD REBATE PLANE -778 - NEW | eBay


VINTAGE RECORD REBATE PLANE -778 - NEW. Condition is New. Dispatched with Royal Mail 2nd Class.



www.ebay.co.uk





I've included another pic of the box and plane before I send it.


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Aug 2020)

.......


Jackbequick said:


> I also have no idea why anyone is talking about 'tungsten' blades...handplane blades are in all my experience with old blades, high carbon steel. Today?...who knows...popout rubbish from India isn't going to have fine blades and I wouldn't even contemplate a 'tungsten' handplane blade..


......

I have two (genuine, and relatively 'vintage' ) Record planes with 'Tungsten steel' blades/cutters:

a #20 compass plane Record No. 020 Circular Plane
and a #50 combi plane Record No. 050 Improved Combination Plane

I think that Record, but maybe others, made a 'thing' of tungsten steel blades (I guess they were said to hold an edge longer).

Cheers, W2S


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## Chipmonk (27 Aug 2020)

Woody2Shoes said:


> .......
> 
> ......
> 
> ...


Thanks for chipping in. Do you find they hold the edge longer? Or isn't it an appreciable difference?

I haven't seen one of those circular planes before... very interesting.

I may have a look at the combination planes, too. I guess you can do grooves as well as rebates with them? I suppose they sacrifice cut width because of the grooves, though, so maybe not.


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## Woody2Shoes (27 Aug 2020)

Chipmonk said:


> Thanks for chipping in. Do you find they hold the edge longer? Or isn't it an appreciable difference?
> 
> I haven't seen one of those circular planes before... very interesting.
> 
> I may have a look at the combination planes, too. I guess you can do grooves as well as rebates with them? Suppose the sacrifice cut depth for the grooves, though, so maybe not.


They're fairly specialist planes to they don't get an intensive workout very often - I guess their edge holds a little longer.


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## Chipmonk (27 Aug 2020)

Woody2Shoes said:


> They're fairly specialist planes to they don't get an intensive workout very often - I guess their edge holds a little longer.


OK, cheers. Sounds like I should stop worrying about getting the original, as long as it's not a poor quality one.


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## Friesiansam (27 Aug 2020)

In your position Chipmonk, I would be reporting the seller and following Ebay procedure to get a refund for falsely described goods. Ripoff merchants won't be stopped if no-one complains.

As for "vintage", a word so thoroughly misused by Ebay sellers, as to be meaningless.


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## Jarno (27 Aug 2020)

That's a Marples Record, and it is a real one not any kind of knockoff or anything. I bought one at about half that in the same condition on ebay, I would guess that is about 80's-90's? Later than that and it would be Irwin Record.
The colour is lighter blue than the older planes. Do not underestimate the number of warehouses where a stack of stuff can just stay untouched for years on end, just collecting a bit of dust which can easily be wiped off.
It is not misrepresented IMHO, but it is incomplete, and you couldn't know because the plane blade is in a brown envelope in the box, not mounted in the plane.
So, once more IMHO, send it back, because while it is probably new and a "real" Record, it is not complete (or, accept the extra cost of buying a nice blade for it, I mean, it is a very very nice plane).

Oh, and mine is definitely not gathering dust, I use it a lot. Been meaning to dull the left corner of the plane blade though, I keep cutting myself on it when I hold the plane.....


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## Chipmonk (27 Aug 2020)

Friesiansam said:


> In your position Chipmonk, I would be reporting the seller and following Ebay procedure to get a refund for falsely described goods. Ripoff merchants won't be stopped if no-one complains.
> 
> As for "vintage", a word so thoroughly misused by Ebay sellers, as to be meaningless.



Yeah, the injured pride part of me wants to do that (I'm 99% sure they knew it wasn't the one on the box and still don't believe them about the blades), but being wrong and slandering someone is a risk, so I'm going to point out the facts on the review and let people judge for themselves. I think the fact she told me her joiner mate said 'planes don't come with blades' and 'none of the other planes have blades' was an attempt to fob me off. Not a good way to earn trust, but hardly a smoking gun.



Jarno said:


> That's a Marples Record, and it is a real one not any kind of knockoff or anything. I bought one at about half that in the same condition on ebay, I would guess that is about 80's-90's? Later than that and it would be Irwin Record.
> The colour is lighter blue than the older planes. Do not underestimate the number of warehouses where a stack of stuff can just stay untouched for years on end, just collecting a bit of dust which can easily be wiped off.
> It is not misrepresented IMHO, but it is incomplete, and you couldn't know because the plane blade is in a brown envelope in the box, not mounted in the plane.
> So, once more IMHO, send it back, because while it is probably new and a "real" Record, it is not complete (or, accept the extra cost of buying a nice blade for it, I mean, it is a very very nice plane).
> ...



cheers, Jarno, but I'm sure it's not a Marples one, it's just too pristine and there's no sign of oils to protect it, so it can't have been preserved for decades. Irwin-Record, yes, I believe it could be, but the mismatch metween the box and the product is fishy (would they use a 70/80s box for a new irwin record? I *highly* doubt that. As you say, I can get a new or SH for the same or less and get it to actually cut stuff! Think of that... a cutting plane, what a time to be alive! Sorry, I have been containing sarcasm soooo hard with this seller.

I've already boxed it, but waiting for rain to stop before I send it. I did think about keeping it regardless, but there were little clues as to the drop in quality and I didn't want to pay £75 for it. The little jack-shaped thingy on the inside, just in front of the blade (no idea what it's for at this point) was ill-fitting and flimsy. All the pics I've seen of older models had this but looked like it was well machined and made of steel (this looked like lacquered ally).

Yeah, enough said, it's going back, but good to get so many opinions from you guys and well worth me signing up! 

Cheers.


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## Jackbequick (28 Aug 2020)

I was querulous about 'tungsten blade' as more difficult to sharpen...last longer but not as easy. Tungsten tipped saw blades for example are meant to be 'throw away'. Unlike some shearers and some tradesmen most I think would throw away the blunt blade ...not do what we do and sharpen them at home ready for the next day. Part of that 'modern tradesman' package is the gymnasium to get those 'throwing' muscles built up. I raised circumspection about the Amazon as it shows a blade but states only "Plane" as the component...so does that include blade?...I'd ask first. "Personally" 

I'd go for the old (vintage sometimes) Stanley kit. ...for example Excellent Vintage Stanley #55 Combination Plane W/52 Cutters & Boxes + Extras | eBay 

There are some 778 blades for sale on eBay at present The cheapest...lowest postage unlike the US ripoff 124129282722 another 114352868846 and a heap are available (German made) 323904523995...


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## Vann (28 Aug 2020)

There's no cutting iron in the original photos - but new planes are always supplied complete with irons. 

It looks to me like NOS - but old stock because the retailer took the irons out to sell separately (possibly intending to order replacements).

Cheers, Vann.


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## Jarno (28 Aug 2020)

+1
And as mentioned, if you buy it new, the plane blade sits in a small brown envelope in the box, so it is not mounted in the plane.
All planes come with plane irons, you can sometimes order extras, but there are always one or more with the plane when new and complete.
Wouldn't go with a Stanley 55 as a replacement for a (7)78, maybe a 44, but that certainly doesn't have as much heft as a 78.


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## Woody2Shoes (28 Aug 2020)

Jackbequick said:


> I was querulous about 'tungsten blade' as more difficult to sharpen...last longer but not as easy. Tungsten tipped saw blades for example are meant to be 'throw away'. Unlike some shearers and some tradesmen most I think would throw away the blunt blade ...not do what we do and sharpen them at home ready for the next day.



I think it's worth making a distinction between steel with tungsten (and probably vanadium) as part of the alloy (which is what the old Record tools used), and more modern tooling with tungsten carbide cutting edges. Both are easily sharpenable with modern diamond stones (although tungsten-rich dust is not good to breathe).


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## Jackbequick (28 Aug 2020)

Vann said:


> There's no cutting iron in the original photos - but new planes are always supplied complete with irons.
> 
> It looks to me like NOS - but old stock because the retailer took the irons out to sell separately (possibly intending to order replacements).
> 
> Cheers, Vann.


 Hi Vann...my thoughts on that are similar but that there was never any intention to provide the cutters....bearing in mind that places like eBay have all sorts and types and your comeback is when they only provide what is stated. So....unless they say 'photos are part of the description' and like Amazon end up with 
Supplied:
Plane only when I would want to see 
plane and cutter or plane and genuine 778 blade

You are wise to ask. Let's not imagine eBay and Gumtree in particular offer outlets only for honest people, every and any crook has the opportunity to access your cash and the costs of getting the cash back punish the buyer.


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## Jackbequick (28 Aug 2020)

Woody2Shoes said:


> I think it's worth making a distinction between steel with tungsten (and probably vanadium) as part of the alloy (which is what the old Record tools used), and more modern tooling with tungsten carbide cutting edges. Both are easily sharpenable with modern diamond stones (although tungsten-rich dust is not good to breathe).



Fair point Woody, so long as one knows what is actually intended by 'tungsten blade' Considering how comparatively little of the blade will be used before throw away and possible costs I'd rather correct mix carbon steel and an ordinary oilstone. Others may see it differently. I still use planes with blades over 100years old, used properly and sharpened properly they do a mighty job...Perhaps it's impressive to use the word 'tungsten' as a descriptor these days where tools are poor...for example I spent hours sharpening my new Stanley chisels to perfection. Stored them away whilst overseas...came back to find the softer part of the handles rotted off them. Would Stanley sharpen them for me on replacements?,,, no, so I kept them one day hoping to find a handle solution. By and large hand tools today are rubbish by comparison with products up to the 1960's. I take that back when thinking of Sidchrome which was barely passable compared with Gedore for example. American industrial tools were the tops. That's where the old tradesman was king, and if you wanted to sell to them you turned out good gear. That's the reason my tools are old an I still have the tools of my apprenticeship, 56 years ago. 

Most places now, wanting to compete and have outlets at places like Bunnings turn out to a price and claim it is to same specification as when made in (say Switzerland) it's old regime. When the handle on the screwdriver turns independently of the shaft you know it's junk....when you see people belting a wood handled chisel with a hammer and not tapped with a mallet you realise its about the distance between horse and cart and a motor lorry. When you open your 'traditional name' stored steel capped boots and find the soles rotted off them you know how low we have allowed manufacturers to go...and to hide in the 'globalised' marketplace. Amazon and ABE claim to have return situations but in my experience never meet the promise. "Brave New World"? One can better buy worn flat face tools, including wooden planes and true them for another hundred years of good service. Unless we demand best quality we will always be overwhelmed by DIY quality...That's my soap box oratory over!!


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## TheTiddles (28 Aug 2020)

Sorry you’ve been conned, but there is something funny in here... she has three in unopened boxes without blades... without opening the box, how does she know there aren’t blades in them? Does she also have a cat in a box and is her last name Schrodinger?

Aidan


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## Inspector (28 Aug 2020)

Aidan she weighed a box and complete plane and then did the same with an incomplete plane, blade out. Then compared the unopened boxes she had. Coclusion. The unopened boxes have no blades.


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## Jackbequick (29 Aug 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> Sorry you’ve been conned, but there is something funny in here... she has three in unopened boxes without blades... without opening the box, how does she know there aren’t blades in them? Does she also have a cat in a box and is her last name Schrodinger?
> 
> Aidan


Aidan....Sie stellen zu viele fragen!! Wörter wie '_Schraeder _and _Schrodinger' (I now trying my gut inglish) _should remind you of ze real world......when our language usink plis remember you do not ask the questions...you gif only answers...like ze inspector. It is we, ze vendor who choose whether to gif you Inglander "blade" oder geben _Ihnen keine kinge_. Picture on box is just added bonus. Ja?.


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## Jackbequick (29 Aug 2020)

Inspector said:


> Aidan she weighed a box and complete plane and then did the same with an incomplete plane, blade out. Then compared the unopened boxes she had. Coclusion. The unopened boxes have no blades.



You will go far in life Inspector....this is the method used in some countries in deciding elections. It is possible the vendor bought the planes to re-sell but from some shonky dealer or suckered 'other'. Schrodinger's notional cat may, if one's imagination stretches so far, have purloined the cutters. The questions are: 'what constitutes a smoothing 'plane' ...'is your opinion the only one'... 'is there a rigid and enforceable definition (in this case of 'plane' and 'what did the vendor believe it had for sale'. Say any of us was selling a table of hand tools and it included say a number 1 Stanley USA or Canadian. Would it be a number 1 Stanley plane without its blade? I might argue were there two pretty much equivalent and not chipped etc. the other English being provided with a blade....would I buy the USA Canadian without a blade or the English with the blade?...I'd buy the former. I might buy boh to get the blade or I might negotiate for the blade until I found a genuine original. 

If only buying the USA/ Canadian would I say 'do you have the original box for my _bladeless _plane' or just say 'do you have the original box for the plane'. Obviously I am talking about 'common parlance' as opposed to 'definitive surgical analysis'.

Nowdays we get a price for say a battery drill...arrive to buy it and find it 'skin-only'...no battery. So what constitutes a battery drill? Buying a mains powered drill does not include a substation connected to the h.v. complete with voltage reduction or a portable alternator....we have to provide that...then apply that argument to the battery...and to the blade. In the modern world of chicanery and internet sales it is wise to keep in mind and engage proactively that muse from 'The Usual Suspects"...'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he doesn't exist'. It should be 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to con people that 'globalisation is good'. Look at the origins of all attempts at globalisation (empire builders) including the successful central banker method and evil is behind it.

In practice too much' has become 'small print' … 'typical photograph, not this item' and 'buy now argue later'. The honourable handshake and 'giri' driven obligation being fulfilled even at a loss has pretty well vanished. Tanaka Ken in the brilliant movie "Yakuza" made a comment to Robert Mitchum concerning 'Giri'..'._the obligation hardest to bea_r' . His answer to Mitchums buddy's 'what if you don't bear it?' was ...if you don't FEEL it...you don't have it. (my emphasis). 

Honour amongst good men, for good cause has largely become superseded by obligation to evil men for evil deeds....we see them daily and often support them.

It seems our dissatisfied buyer has made an arrangement to recover his funds in part or all. The question we have to ask these days is 'what am I actually getting'...and ask the vendor in advance. It's very simple 'does the plane I would buy come complete and with its cutter'. I realise from experience and losses amounting into many thousands that eBay is riddled with shonks and people pretending they are ignorant... '_lights up...do not have aerial to test further_' or '_from my grandfather's estate...worked ok in 1930....should be ok_'...stories . 

These days in this method of distance and description purchase "Caveat Emptor'...the rather nauseating business advice has become really essential. If I don't get a satisfactory answer no matter how much I lust after an item...I will not buy or bid. Not altogether a patient man I have found through painful experience that it is true that whatever you see ….perhaps setting aside something like a Bugatti 57C Atlantic ...will turn up again and often a better buy. (there are four of those Bugattis so..._.hmmmm… maybe...._). 

Don't lust after items, just decided what is your purpose and are they fit for purpose. I forgot to check...Lie Neilsen made a 778 blade...why?...surely not for 'record owners'....maybe the company made the equivalent of the 778....if so that's the one I'd be after...in the meantime I'd find another way to do the job for which I want the 778 or buy a Stanley somewhere in that 40-55 range which will immediately or ultimately do the same job.


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## Vann (29 Aug 2020)

Jackbequick said:


> Hi Vann...my thoughts on that are similar but that there was never any intention to provide the cutters...


 I'm reluctant to agree with you there. In my own experience I have at least twice had a retailer take a part out of the box, as he had none of that part in stock (in one case it was a collet for a router - he opened another router box and sold me the collet). In both cases the retailer was both honest and helpful. I have no reason to suspect they were not going to order a replacement part as soon as I left the shop.

I do agree that the seller in this case is either mis-informed or dishonest. But like I say, I suspect somewhere down the track a retailer took the cutting irons out to help a customer.



Jackbequick said:


> ...Lie Neilsen made a 778 blade...why?...surely not for 'record owners'...


Apparently so. I have one in my Record 778.



Jackbequick said:


> ...maybe the company made the equivalent of the 778...


No, Lie-Nielsen have never made a 778. I don't think they've ever made a rebate plane - the nearest would be their shoulder planes.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Chipmonk (29 Aug 2020)

Jackbequick said:


> I was querulous about 'tungsten blade' as more difficult to sharpen...last longer but not as easy. Tungsten tipped saw blades for example are meant to be 'throw away'. Unlike some shearers and some tradesmen most I think would throw away the blunt blade ...not do what we do and sharpen them at home ready for the next day. Part of that 'modern tradesman' package is the gymnasium to get those 'throwing' muscles built up. I raised circumspection about the Amazon as it shows a blade but states only "Plane" as the component...so does that include blade?...I'd ask first. "Personally"
> 
> I'd go for the old (vintage sometimes) Stanley kit. ...for example Excellent Vintage Stanley #55 Combination Plane W/52 Cutters & Boxes + Extras | eBay
> 
> There are some 778 blades for sale on eBay at present The cheapest...lowest postage unlike the US ripoff 124129282722 another 114352868846 and a heap are available (German made) 323904523995...


I have diamond stone, so it shouldn't be much of a problem after the first honing.

Cheers for the tip, I'll take a look at that.


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## Chipmonk (29 Aug 2020)

Inspector said:


> Aidan she weighed a box and complete plane and then did the same with an incomplete plane, blade out. Then compared the unopened boxes she had. Coclusion. The unopened boxes have no blades.


Hahaha, I would love to give them that credit.
But, nah.


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## Tony Zaffuto (30 Aug 2020)

I am puzzled by the label on the box, particularly the name "Calvert Stevens" under Record. If I'm not mistaken, the name "Calvert" was used by Record for planes that had "extra" refinements, but I don't recall the name Stevens.

I have a NOS 778 that I bought about a decade ago, from Patrick Leach. It is packed away in my "accumulation" and I don't remember if I have the box or not, but it was a Record. The color of yours looks like what I remember of mine.

These planes are more carpenter tools, than cabinetry tools, and I would expect yours to be serviceable once you locate a blade. Personally, I would try to get a partial refund from the seller, just enough to get a blade. I would think a Stanley 78 blade will fit, and those used planes cost next to nothing in the states. Failing to get a partial refund, I would just keep the plane and mark it up to experience.

I would post a "want to buy" for the blade, on as many woodworking forums as you can.


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## Garno (30 Aug 2020)

Anyone else noticed where the people who have ripped him off are from?

Crook,

You couldn't make it up


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## Jarno (30 Aug 2020)

The Calvert Stevens was a very expensive plane indeed, which was probably used as a "halo" product for the rest of the products.
It helps to date the plane though, end 80's beginning of 90's?
I am not joining the choir of "you got ripped off and the seller is a crook". They should have checked to see that the plane was complete, rather than assume it was. If they want to do a partial refund, that would be best (imho), else use the ebay seller protection and buy another one. Enough of them available on ebay, and it is (once more, imho) a very helpful tool, for carpentry and joinery.


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## Tony Zaffuto (30 Aug 2020)

Jarno said:


> The Calvert Stevens was a very expensive plane indeed, which was probably used as a "halo" product for the rest of the products.
> It helps to date the plane though, end 80's beginning of 90's?
> I am not joining the choir of "you got ripped off and the seller is a crook". They should have checked to see that the plane was complete, rather than assume it was. If they want to do a partial refund, that would be best (imho), else use the ebay seller protection and buy another one. Enough of them available on ebay, and it is (once more, imho) a very helpful tool, for carpentry and joinery.



Thanks for the Calvert Stevens clarification! I remembered Calvert but not Stevens. I would be curious what was done to this plane to further refine it!


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## Jarno (31 Aug 2020)

Record No. CS88 Calvert Stevens Smooth Plane


Record No. CS88 Calvert Stevens Plane Created to fill the gap between a Stanley-type plane and those made by Norris of London, the Record CS88 boasted superior workmanship to any other Record plane…




www.record-planes.com





Norris adjuster, not sure if they also included the Bedrock style frog adjustment.
All, in all, meh?


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## Tony Zaffuto (31 Aug 2020)

Jarno said:


> Record No. CS88 Calvert Stevens Smooth Plane
> 
> 
> Record No. CS88 Calvert Stevens Plane Created to fill the gap between a Stanley-type plane and those made by Norris of London, the Record CS88 boasted superior workmanship to any other Record plane…
> ...



Don't know-never tried one! Patrick Leach had one on his site a few months back, but it was sold before I contacted Patrick to buy it (I think it was on his site!). 

Do you recall the time frame when they were available? I seem to remember maybe two decades ago, and vaguely recall Lee Valley having smoothers in their catalog - any thoughts?


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## Vann (31 Aug 2020)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> ...Do you recall the time frame when they were available?...


I believe they came out in 1988 and were only available for about two years.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Tony Zaffuto (31 Aug 2020)

Vann said:


> I believe they came out in 1988 and were only available for about two years.
> 
> Cheers, Vann.



That's probably spot on, as I remember getting my first woodworking catalogs in the mid 80's.

Thanks,

T.


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## PaulB (2 Sep 2020)

Is everyone here really advocating sending the plane back? It is obvious to me that very few planes of this type will actually have a blade these days as the originals are as rare as hen's teeth. The body of this item is recycled, but not particularly well done, painting over rust is never a good look. The blade for this item was a poorly made affair usually with multiple hairline cracks. I would report the seller. All 778 planes came with a blade, but my grandfather made a new one for his plane from tool steel, which is still in use somewhere in the family, we are all woodworkers.


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## Bod (2 Sep 2020)

If the item is sold as "New" or "Complete" then every part that the factory supplied, must be with it.
Sold as "Parts only" or "Spares or Repair" then it is up to the seller just what is offered.
The item should be returned for full refund, or agreement reached for reduction of cost to reflect the value of the missing parts.

Bod


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## Jarno (2 Sep 2020)

PaulB said:


> It is obvious to me that very few planes of this type will actually have a blade these days as the originals are as rare as hen's teeth.



They really aren't that rare. At the moment there are 16 of them on ebay, granted some of them are incomplete or offerings for parts (plane blades, the rods that go with these planes).

Wait for this one:








RECORD 778 REBATE PLANE | eBay


A RECORD 778 REBATE Plane -- good all round condition ALL parts present, clean and lightly oiled. Largely corrosion free with a little paint loss.



www.ebay.co.uk





Or buy this one:








Vintage Record Rabbet Fillister Plane 778 | eBay


Nice plane.



www.ebay.co.uk





There are several others, but they are pretty expensive. I paid 60 euros for mine locally, which was in a pretty nice condition. And I also had one in the box, like new, like the thread starter (same box too), for about 30GBP on ebay.
Patience saves you money.


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## Chipmonk (3 Sep 2020)

Jarno said:


> They really aren't that rare. At the moment there are 16 of them on ebay, granted some of them are incomplete or offerings for parts (plane blades, the rods that go with these planes).
> 
> Wait for this one:
> 
> ...


I think PaulB was referring to the blade being rare, which they are. I have spent several hours looking for the 778 spares and simply blades on their own. The only sources I can find are out of stock and not responding to emails. I've managed to purchase a good condition Record 778 on ebay (£57), so despite the fact it's used, it's seemingly an *actual* vintage and has an original blade. I also managed to get a couple of Ray Iles 778 replacement blades from ToolNut and they seem really good (well protected with wax and oils, too). They were only £9 each, so half the price of the nameless replicas, which comprise about 90% of search results (and all having the same images and descriptions - i.e. source provider).

To cap off the saga of the original plane I got from ebay: I sent it back and the refund arrived in full today. We had a couple of parting shots:

ME: Thanks for that. It's a shame and I hope you haven't been had by your provider (whoever they were). I've now had feedback from over 2 dozen carpenters on my forum and there's no precedent for a plane without a blade, but most tellingly there is very little confidence that this is a vintage unit, and since Record stopped making them in 2004 (well after they became Irwin-Record) it seems more likely to be an attempt to defraud somewhere in the supply-chain. They are estimated to be less than 5 years old possibly of Indian origin, since there is an identical black version of this exact model available under an Indian pseudonym. That comes with a blade.​​SELLER: No fraud and def record not Irwin record plane - dad says those planes came out of our bishop shop when we closed it in 1978 and his dad had bought them probably around 1955/1960 - he’s hardly ever bought anything that was made after the companies combined - but I totally appreciate your opinion on the plane and def agree that without the blade it was useless to you!​​ME: I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm not sure how you'd be so sure that your supplier was not defrauded. There is no way that plane was 60 years old, you only have to look at the condition of the metals, they would have to be kept in an oil bath to stop surface rust and they obviously weren't - they didn't even have a protective bag on them. If you are saying you got them direct from (pre-Irwin) Record's UK warehouse then they must have gotten a lift with Doctor Emmett Brown.​​Everything from that era had a much darker shade of blue (slightly greener, too).​The only models that have the cut-away I mentioned are Faithfull and an indian clone. Neither are marked as Record and Irwin-Record's have both names stamped on them.​

Now, if I'm wrong about that plane (please see previous pics) being 60 years old, then I'm an *******. But I just can't credit it. No bag, no oils, no sealant, just a plane in a cardboard box for 60 years. 

I've emailed Irwin support to ask them if they can clear it up, but from experience, it doesn't always help.


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## Jarno (7 Sep 2020)

As we have established in this thread, 30 years, not 60 and it says Record, none of the Indian copies are marked Record or Irwin, and none of them are blue. And the Indian ones have the single prong nicker, rather than three prongs for the Record planes. It is known that the older Record planes, and Woden, are darker blue than the newer ones.
So, as someone who had a, only slighter older (same box, without Calvert Stevens logo) plane just like this, it is a real one, just not a very old one. 
But who am I to try and convince you, right? You do you...


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## Chipmonk (7 Sep 2020)

Jarno said:


> As we have established in this thread, 30 years, not 60 and it says Record, none of the Indian copies are marked Record or Irwin, and none of them are blue. And the Indian ones have the single prong nicker, rather than three prongs for the Record planes. It is known that the older Record planes, and Woden, are darker blue than the newer ones.
> So, as someone who had a, only slighter older (same box, without Calvert Stevens logo) plane just like this, it is a real one, just not a very old one.
> But who am I to try and convince you, right? You do you...



Cheers, Jarno. Just to be clear, I wasn't saying it was 60 years, the seller was. And I wasn't suggesting this was a 'legitimate clone', if people are selling knock-offs, they're going to copy the originals. I'm not even arguing that was a knock-off (although I suspected it at one point), I just don't know and it was very hard to find proof that it was legitimate. 

That said, I still can't credit this one as being even 30 years old. Why would they hold this particular stock in humidity-controlled warehouses for 3 decades and more? Kind of moot, since the seller said it was bought between 1955-1960. There was absolutely no sign of aging and nothing in the box was protecting it, no bag, nothing. The seller said all 3 of them were the same.

Did you buy yours back in the 80s? Was yours this light blue colour as well? i.e. it didn't match the box it came in? Does your have that cut-away behind the blade or does the blade-support sit flush with the edge of the shoe? I've seen a few of these immaculate, light-blue, 'vintage' Records on sale now.

As far as convincing anyone is concerned, you or anyone else with a robust set of facts and sources can convince and the jury is out until that happens (which is also why I haven't reported the seller). I really appreciate your input, I just haven't seen or heard a nailed-shut argument for either side.

I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt in certain cases, but most crooks thrive on the phrase 'plausible deniability'.

So it's either:

a) a 30 year old original that doesn't match its box, and was kept in perfect conditions but had the blade nicked (as, apparently had its batch-brethren) and the seller mistakenly assumed it was part of a batch they bought in 1960. 

Or 

b) it's a newer chinese product. My final supposition concurs with you, that it might have been an early Irwin-Record, but made in China and before the switch to Irwin-Record branding. That might explain the pristine condition (i.e. Irwin took care of it). The deal-break was that I could see the same item on Amazon for £10 more and that was a Chinese Irwin-Record with a blade (and warranty).






Irwin Record Rebate Plane Length 8-1/2-inch: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools


Free delivery and returns on all eligible orders. Shop Irwin Record Rebate Plane Length 8-1/2-inch.



www.amazon.co.uk





* or c) it's an old item that has been renovated to look new. I'm dismissing this because all the non-painted hardware is pristine.

I'm willing to believe either, but, in the absence of any evidence, it's gone back, they've refunded the money and I'm none the wiser about it's history (or lack of). 

So I paid £55 and got this one, with a blade. I'd already bought a couple of Ray Iles 778 blades (in case they disappeared altogether), which seem really good (if anyone needs one, let me know. I doubt I'll wear all 3 out).









VINTAGE RECORD 778 RABBET FILLISTER PLANE | eBay


In good used condition (see all photos). length 8.5".



www.ebay.co.uk





It arrived yesterday and, unlike the previous one, the fence fits perfectly and is really easy to adjust. My first impression was that it was higher quality than the previous one. Ultimately, this feels like a huge waste of time, but I'm happy with the plane, at least!


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## Bm101 (7 Sep 2020)

TheTiddles said:


> Sorry you’ve been conned, but there is something funny in here... she has three in unopened boxes without blades... without opening the box, how does she know there aren’t blades in them? Does she also have a cat in a box and is her last name Schrodinger?
> 
> Aidan


Strictly speaking wouldn't the boxes would have to have the irons in them and not in them at the same time. 

That plane would look nice and work better with a nice waxed bit of wood screwed to the bed.


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## Chipmonk (7 Sep 2020)

Bm101 said:


> Strictly speaking wouldn't the boxes would have to have the irons in them and not in them at the same time.
> 
> That plane would look nice and work better with a nice waxed bit of wood screwed to the bed.


I suppose they were in a quantum juxtaposition of correct wrong-ness.


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## Nigel Burden (7 Sep 2020)

I have a Woden W78 which is from the period 1957 -60. The remaining blue paint is considerably darker, as is the remaining paint on my Record 76 which I would imagine is from the 1950s-60s.

Nigel.


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## TheTiddles (8 Sep 2020)

Chipmonk said:


> I suppose they were in a quantum juxtaposition of correct wrong-ness.


Do you think we’ve stretched a wave function analogy too far yet?!


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