# Wago Lighting Connectors



## seanf (2 Jan 2023)

I've been working on swapping some lights in our new house from standard ceiling roses to something nicer. I've hit a problem in our hallway though. It has two lights controlled by three switches, each light having 2 x live, 2 x neutral and 2 x earth wires. The light we want to put up has the tiniest of choc box connectors and I am struggling to fit two of any of the cables (e.g. both lives) securely in place. There is plenty of space inside the light fitting so I am thinking I could instead use these Wago lighting connectors for this and get rid of the choc box. I would need to strip back a little insulation on the wiring in the light - it has crimped (?) stranded wires - to make the correct length. Any thoughts or advice please?

Thanks

Sean


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## HOJ (2 Jan 2023)

Ideal for your purpose


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## Spectric (2 Jan 2023)

Chocolate block is historical like ring mains, WAGO connectors are great for many electrical connections and the ones you link to are fine for your lights. With two lights contolled by three switchs means you have a pair of one pole two way switches and an intermediate switch so make sure if you disconnect anything to take notes/pictures as this type of switching catchs many out.


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## seanf (2 Jan 2023)

Thank you very much both

@Spectric Interesting to see your comments. When I unscrewed the ceiling rose cover this is what I found:







… so the wires coming from the ceiling are just paired together and the single live and neutral from the bulb wire (excuse the layman’s terms, my electric knowledge is all from IT experience). I was thinking I would need three of the Wago connectors: live, earth and neutral grouped together in each connector and then connected to the matching wire on the light. Is that not right?

Thanks

Sean


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## HOJ (2 Jan 2023)

Ideal, The switch wiring should/will run directly between the switches and not via the light fitting, I would suggest the other light (you've not shown of the 2) will only have 1 set of brown & Blue wires of the fixed wiring coming in, as its should be the end of the run.

Just knock the MCB of though please before you mess, but if you have an RCD on the back of that though you might knock it out if you splash the wires.


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## seanf (2 Jan 2023)

Brilliant, thank you so much again. I just looked at the second light and you are, of course, absolutely right about the wiring there:






I will pick up some of the connectors I linked tomorrow. I assume there is no issue in using the same connectors for both lights? I can always buy the two way ones as well if needed, but these aren’t in stock locally at the moment

Also, I will take note of your warning. I always try to do anything like this as carefully as possible, no point taking risks just to save some money

Sean


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## Spectric (2 Jan 2023)

What you have in a std lighting circuit where the ceiling roses are the interconnects is your live, earth and neutral loop through all the circuits roses. From the rose a live is taken down to the switch and back up to the rose, often in blue but must be sleeved to show live. This switched live has its own two pair connector block where the other side is your light which connects from here to neutral. In your photo this is not the case and the three brown wires are the switched lives. If you are fitting a new light that does away with this rose and light pendant then just replicate the wires, two blues on one side of the wago and your light on the other single exit side, same for the browns and CPC's .


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## seanf (2 Jan 2023)

Thank you for the detail. I'm pleased we have a simpler setup!

Sean


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## scholar (2 Jan 2023)

Wago connectors are great, but they all need to be in an enclosure. Wago do one for these 224 lighting connectors “Wago Light” see here Reliable Solutions for Many Sectors and Industries | WAGO I haven‘t used these particular ones, but other Wago boxes i have used are pretty chunky.

Another option is Quickwire - see here  I like the look of these and intend to go round and replace all my lighting junction boxes with them - these do not need an enclosure as all exposed cables remain double insulated.

Cheers


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## Spectric (2 Jan 2023)

All electrical connections should be in an enclosure, but providing the connectors are all within the light fitting base and not shoved up above the ceiling then this is the enclosure. One thing that should be pointed out is that the CPC's looped through the original rose, if this new light fitting has any conductive parts then the CPC needs to also be connected to the light, this can easily be determined if the new light fitting has a green CPC wire or just live & neutral. My most used Wago's are 222's and they also come with support brackets and enclosures. Wago ABOX 221 IP65 32A 5-Terminal Weatherproof Outdoor Junction Box 110 x 110 x 67mm


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## MorrisWoodman12 (3 Jan 2023)

@seanf I will pick up some of the connectors I linked tomorrow. I assume there is no issue in using the same connectors for both lights? I can always buy the two way ones as well if needed, but these aren’t in stock locally at the moment

You can alway use 3 way connectors in place of 2 way if yo can't readily get them: just leave on 'bay' open.
Please remember to turn the power off.


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## pe2dave (3 Jan 2023)

Spectric said:


> All electrical connections should be in an enclosure, but providing the connectors are all within the light fitting base and not shoved up above the ceiling then this is the enclosure. One thing that should be pointed out is that the CPC's looped through the original rose, if this new light fitting has any conductive parts then the CPC needs to also be connected to the light, this can easily be determined if the new light fitting has a green CPC wire or just live & neutral. My most used Wago's are 222's and they also come with support brackets and enclosures. Wago ABOX 221 IP65 32A 5-Terminal Weatherproof Outdoor Junction Box 110 x 110 x 67mm


Reduce the TLA's please @Spectric - meaningless to me.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jan 2023)

Wagos are excellent. On numerous occasions I put my arm under the floor trying to trace wires and pipes, it wasn't until I pulled the basement ceilings down I realised there was not one single junction box with its cover in place, they were all open.


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jan 2023)

pe2dave said:


> Reduce the TLA's please @Spectric - meaningless to me.


I had to google TLA - meaningless to me.


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## MorrisWoodman12 (3 Jan 2023)

@pe2dave CPC = circuit protective conductor. That is earth to you and me.
TLA three letter abbreviation 
Have fun 
Martin


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## TomGW (3 Jan 2023)

pe2dave said:


> Reduce the TLA's please @Spectric - meaningless to me.


TLA ??


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## Phil Pascoe (3 Jan 2023)

Wiki actually gives TLA as three letter acronym - one of which of course CPC isn't. By the bye.


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## John Brown (3 Jan 2023)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Wiki actually gives TLA as three letter acronym - one of which of course CPC isn't. By the bye.


I never found a definitive answer as to whether an acronym needs to be pronounceable or not. I was always in the yes camp, but have read/seen clever folks saying no.


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## seanf (3 Jan 2023)

Thank you very much for your help everybody. I have just put the first of the hallway lights up. The Wago connectors are a dream to use, so simple and I think I’ll use them for every light I am fitting rather than just the hallway ones where I had the problem






Sean


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## pe2dave (4 Jan 2023)

(if you have room) I think those quickwire connectors are a) news to me, b) another bit of magic to aid connections.
I wonder how / if the regs cover them when not within a 'container'


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## scholar (4 Jan 2023)

pe2dave said:


> (if you have room) I think those quickwire connectors are a) news to me, b) another bit of magic to aid connections.
> I wonder how / if the regs cover them when not within a 'container'


They don’t need a separate enclosure because the wiring remains double insulated into the Quickwire box - ie there is no exposed single insulated cable (and you need a tool to undo it). I think these are the requirements. 

I think these are the neatest solution I have seen - you can pop the Quickwire unit with anll the circuit connections into the ceiling void above the light fitting and just have one cable coming to the fitting itself. 

Cheers


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## pe2dave (4 Jan 2023)

scholar said:


> They don’t need a separate enclosure because the wiring remains double insulated into the Quickwire box - ie there is no exposed single insulated cable (and you need a tool to undo it). I think these are the requirements.
> 
> I think these are the neatest solution I have seen - you can pop the Quickwire unit with anll the circuit connections into the ceiling void above the light fitting and just have one cable coming to the fitting itself.
> 
> Cheers


Good to hear. My issue was a ceiling light screwed into a rafter? 1" hole? V.difficult to get anything back into the void.


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## pe2dave (4 Jan 2023)

Yuk. I shan't be buying any quickwire. All cookies or p... off?
Dirty and quite possibly wrong.


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## scholar (4 Jan 2023)

pe2dave said:


> Yuk. I shan't be buying any quickwire. All cookies or p... off?
> Dirty and quite possibly wrong.


Interesting point..

I had a look and the site says you need to accept non-necessary cookies to view 3rd party content (all YouTube, I guess) - would that be a requirement of the Quickwire site linking to YouTube? I don’t know.

Until very recently, I have been blasé about accepting all cookies, but mostly now try to limit to necessary ones, except when I’m in a rush…

Cheers


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## pe2dave (4 Jan 2023)

scholar said:


> Until very recently, I have been blasé about accepting all cookies, but mostly now try to limit to necessary ones, except when I’m in a rush…
> 
> Cheers


go to individual products and you get the circuit diagram of each connector.
I 'refuse' cookies if at all possible.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Jan 2023)

I clear everything a couple of times a week so I don't worry too much about cookies.


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## Spectric (4 Jan 2023)

If rewiring a property then modernise, we have talked about Seans problem on an old build but the solution now is to loop through the switchs, at least on a ground floor where it is more likely to fit decorative lights than just rose & pendants. Hager actually make light switches with the provision for neutral built in White Moulded Sollysta . The problem can be that that ideally you want at least 35mm back boxes and getting these into newer properties can be a right pita.


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## Old Grizzly (5 Jan 2023)

Used these for the first time a few months back, rewiring the new upstairs lighting circuit. A real time saver. Biggest problem was the loft flooring - 8 x 4 x 3/4 chipboard nailed down with annular nails ... all under 12 inch of fibreglass insulation roll ... messy hard work
Beware of the rookie mistake I made. Always been used to using choc blocks and when I finished up for the day I was very tired and had a bare cable end and without thinking I secured each wire in its own hole in a 3 way wago block, forgetting they were all inter connected ..... that tested the breakers nicely with impressive visual and audio effects and woke me up very quickly .... in a split second I knew exactly what I'd done.
Don't play with wiring when tired !


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## Spectric (5 Jan 2023)

Sometimes access can be a right pain, in some cases it can be better to remove as little flooring as possible and use other methods. Faced with your 3/4 boards I would have drilled a pilot hole up from the light side and then made an access hole from above using these sort of tools:

 or 127mm Solid Board Cutter Kit

and for getting the cables through places you won't beat these https://super-rod.co.uk/#products


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## seanf (5 Jan 2023)

Today I finished putting up the final three lights we have bought so far and was again very impressed. Not only do the connectors make it faster but they make it 1000 times easier to do the job by yourself. No more wishing for a third hand when balancing the new light and trying to connect up the wires in a choc box, a simple press on the connector, a tug on the wire to ensure it's securely connected and on to the next 

Sean


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## Superduner (Friday at 06:12)

There are several types and configurations of copy Wacos on the market-fairly obviously from China.
They are all in one connectors for 3 core mains cable and, I'm guessing, not legal for use in the UK,
Some YouTubers have tested them at up to 4000 volts before they gave up and melted.


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## XTiffy (Friday at 06:59)

I became an expert on this subject some years ago having to access and correct ilegal electrical connections of a cowboy electrician (napit registered). This was a new build with all of the chipboard flooring down. Trend supply a Routerbout system which makes quite a large access hole/plate, from memory about 250mm dia (I still have some of the components/cutter). I also used the metal plate system (as per the video put up by spectric), when a smaller access was sufficient. I have used all of the electrical connections that have been mentioned in this post wago which are great and quickwire for a log cabin lighting circuit which was good too.


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## MikeJhn (Friday at 10:29)

Oh dear Expert please do tell us what was illegal about the electrical connections?


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## XTiffy (Saturday at 12:06)

MikeJhn,
Not sure if I am the expert you are referring to. The bodger believed in using chocolate blocks wrapped in insulation tape and squirelled away beneath floors and in stud partitions. As I am sure you are aware Elec regs. require access for maintenance etc. Wago use the boxes to house the wago connection blocks to satisfy regs. Somewhere I have photos of lots of the problem areas that surfaced. One item was forgetting to run an earth continuity cable so he drilled the outside walls ran it along a few inches deep in the earth (as in Dirt!) then drilled back through the outside wall. When I protested that that cable could easily be cut when digging in the garden he said "that it was OK as it didn't carry any voltage". Then don't get me started on the "builder" using a plumber who caused even more problems.


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## Spectric (Saturday at 13:27)

MikeJhn said:


> was illegal about the electrical connections


They probably mean unsafe or in contrevention of the regs, I have seen many bad / dangerous examples over the years and downlighters seemed a bad area where at best they used choc block without any enclosure or at worst just twisted wires and taped. 

What is a


XTiffy said:


> One item was forgetting to run an earth continuity cable


You have the CPC's but whats a earth continuity cable?


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## Phil Pascoe (Saturday at 13:40)

I wonder how many places in the UK have earths to copper pipework which were perfectly sound at the time but the continuity of which has since been broken by pieces of plastic piping used for additions and repairs?


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## XTiffy (Saturday at 14:41)

Yes, Earth _bonding_ cable for metal pipework etc.! Yes, I do mean illegal in the sense of not corresponding with Regs.


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## XTiffy (Saturday at 14:49)

My point was not about the electrical issues but regarding the original post about access through laid chipboard floors (the electrical issues are which led me to use various methods of gaining access to the floor void) or plasterboard, ceilings/studwork etc.


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## MikeJhn (Saturday at 15:42)

The BS's are a guide, they are not a statutory instrument that must be complied with.


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## XTiffy (Saturday at 16:40)

MikeJhn,
To me your over-legalistic definition is pointless. That is like saying the UK Highway code is not law but you can be punished for not observing it.
The fact is that Building Regs. require you to have all wiring certified as meeting the current version of the Electrical Regs, whether you wish to say that is not a "Statutory instrument" is irelevant.


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## Phil Pascoe (Saturday at 16:41)

Not the best comparison, maybe, as parts of the H.C. are advisory.


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## HOJ (Saturday at 18:55)

This could be dangerous, but part of a subject I'm currently working on so seemed relevant to post, however I'm of the mind electrical subjects should be treated the same as sharpening and political threads.

*Lifted from the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989*

British Standard BS 7671 Requirements for Electrical
Installations (also known as the IET Wiring Regulations)

BS 7671 Requirements for electrical installations is also known as the IET
Wiring Regulations. They are non-statutory regulations which ‘relate principally to
the design, selection, erection, inspection and testing of electrical installations,
whether permanent or temporary, in and about buildings generally and to
agricultural and horticultural premises, construction sites and caravans and their
sites’.

BS 7671 is a code of practice which is widely recognised and accepted in the
UK and compliance with it is likely to achieve compliance with relevant aspects of
the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.



XTiffy said:


> The bodger believed in using chocolate blocks wrapped in insulation tape and squirelled away beneath floors and in stud partitions. As I am sure you are aware Elec regs. require access for maintenance etc



*Suitability of connections*

Guidance note 10

#160 The regulation requires that all connections in circuit and protective
conductors, including connections to terminals, plugs and sockets, and any other
means of joining or connecting conductors, should be suitable for the purposes for
which they are used. This requirement applies equally to temporary and permanent
connections. The insulation and conductance of the connections must be suitable,
having regard to the conditions of use including likely fault conditions.


#161 The mechanical protection and strength must be such as to ensure the
integrity of the insulation and conductance under all conditions of use including
likely fault conditions, subject to the need for any maintenance which may be
required by regulation 4(2).

*Regulation 4(2)*

#66 Regulation 4(2) is concerned with the need for maintenance to be done to
ensure safety of the system, rather than with the activity of doing the maintenance
in a safe manner (which is required by regulation 4(3)).

#67 The obligation to maintain arises only if danger would otherwise result. The
maintenance should be sufficient to prevent danger so far as is reasonably
practicable.

As always open to debate interpretation.


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## mikej460 (Saturday at 21:56)

I'm in the middle of totally refurbishing an old kitchen and hall into an open plan dining room. This work involved removing the internal wall and ripping out the old ceiling, ready for rewiring and new pipework. I found a lot of dead wires and even a few unterminated live wires. I'm currently wiring the new lighting circuit so I'll share one scary example of what I found:






The new 2 way lighting circuit will use 3 core and earth between the two switches, a wago box (screwed to a joist) and 224 connectors to wire in the feed wire and switched live wire. I use wago connectors on most wiring projects now.


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## MikeJhn (Saturday at 22:23)

XTiffy said:


> MikeJhn,
> To me your over-legalistic definition is pointless. That is like saying the UK Highway code is not law but you can be punished for not observing it.
> The fact is that Building Regs. require you to have all wiring certified as meeting the current version of the Electrical Regs, whether you wish to say that is not a "Statutory instrument" is irelevant.


Not irrelevant in any circumstances, there are no Electrical Regulations that are law, you can quote BS's till the cows come home, but they are not regulations, the IET are a self appointed body that call their documents the "IET Regulations", but they are not statutory and are therefore not a legal regulation, British Standards are advisory and if it can be demonstrated that any work has been carried out in line with the advice or indeed exceeded that advice then the spirit of the advice has been complied with and any legal requirement has been met.


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## mikej460 (Saturday at 22:35)

MikeJhn said:


> Not irrelevant in any circumstances, there are no Electrical Regulations that are law, you can quote BS's till the cows come home, but they are not regulations, the IET are a self appointed body that call their documents the "IET Regulations", but they are not statutory and are therefore not a legal regulation, British Standards are advisory and if it can be demonstrated that any work has been carried out in line with the advice or indeed exceeded that advice then the spirit of the advice has been complied with and any legal requirement has been met.


I think the point here is more that the electrical regs are mandated by building control who can force you to comply. Our sparks came to look at our CU the other day as it needs to be moved, its a modern plastic split CU with 2 RCD breakers and mcbs. He recommended we replace it with a metal one with rcbos to meet the latest 18th edition regs and also a big plus (together with full certification) when we eventually sell the place; the labour cost will be the same.


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## Spectric (Saturday at 22:49)

XTiffy said:


> Yes, I do mean illegal in the sense of not corresponding with Regs.


But the electrical regulations, BS7671 are not a legally binding document, they are best practice and for guidance as to how you design, inspect and test an installation. There is nothing in law that states you must follow this guidance but if you injure or electrocute someone then the first question asked will be, did you follow BS7671 and if not then you had better have a very sound explanation or you will be prosecuted. 



XTiffy said:


> The fact is that Building Regs. require you to have all wiring certified as meeting the current version of the Electrical Regs,


 An electrical installation only has to have met the regulations at the time of the installation, you do not have to bring older installations upto the current regulations but must certify that installation is safe. 

As for bonding, a lot has changed since the mandatory use of residual current protection, once upon a time we would have to bond radiators in bathrooms.

Regulation 701.415.2 states supplementary bonding may be omitted, provided that all final circuits of the location have additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with 701.411.3.3.


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## Spectric (Saturday at 22:54)

mikej460 said:


> Our sparks came to look at our CU the other day as it needs to be moved, its a modern plastic split CU with 2 RCD breakers and mcbs. He recommended we replace it with a metal one with rcbos to meet the latest 18th edition regs


That is more a case of doing the right thing, you are replacing the CU as part of moving it but had this just been a test and inspection then you could advise the customer that having a newer board with RCBO's would meet newer regs but no way could you make them change it.


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## mikej460 (Saturday at 22:56)

Spectric said:


> That is more a case of doing the right thing, you are replacing the CU as part of moving it but had this just been a test and inspection then you could advise the customer that having a newer board with RCBO's would meet newer regs but no way could you make them change it.


Agreed and he said as such; it is our choice.


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## Spectric (Saturday at 22:58)

MikeJhn said:


> there are no Electrical Regulations that are law,


I always looked upon them as a double edged sword, you don't need to follow them but if something goes wrong then the HSE will use them to prosecute you. There are cases where you just cannot fully follow BS7671, you might have to make a slight change but so long as your change is safe beyond doubt and you can justify it then not an issue.


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## deema (Saturday at 23:02)

I’ve sat on a few committees that have set the regulations, it never ceased to amaze me how regulations were changed to meet the needs of additional profits and business for the company’s that sat on the very same committees. 

Now its a long time ago I was involved with the IET or IEEE as it was then, but I believe that electrical boxes had to be made from V0 plastic, that’s virgin material that has a specific fire retardancy. Lighting and other stuff was required to be on split circuits to avoid the ‘lights going out due to a single fault’. You would have a very hard time trying to ignite V0 material, so I don’t buy into metal boxes to resolve the perceived fire risk of the box. They used to be metal before plastic took over!!!! Plastic was seen as presenting a lower chance of electrocution.!!!

A RCBO is simply a MCB and RCD in one unit, far more expensive than MCB’s covered by a single RCD. I can’t think of a single reason why the RCBO is a better solution. The minor inconveniences of a few more circuits being deactivated due to an earth fault on one isn’t I would suggest a big issue. In the good old days, people kept candles and the torches at conveniently places in case the lights went out. After all, power cuts do occur, where I live at least a biannual event.


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## deema (Saturday at 23:21)

I believe Wago connectors have a maximum specified resistance of 20m Ohm, or 0.2 Ohm. Doesn’t sound much but if you use them say in a 32A line that’s a power dissipation of circa 200 watts…..more than a few A+ rated light bulbs…….so you don’t want to use many.


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## porker (Saturday at 23:58)

You might want to check you calcs. 20mOhms is 0.02 Ohms, so a max of 20W. I note that the 221's are rated at 32A @ 400v. Not sure how the contact resistance measures up to traditional junction boxes but I assume the constant spring pressure in the Wago connector maintains the connection potentially better than a screw which can loosen over a long time of thermal cycling


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## deema (Sunday at 00:12)

porker said:


> You might want to check you calcs. 20mOhms is 0.02 Ohms, so a max of 20W. I note that the 221's are rated at 32A @ 400v. Not sure how the contact resistance measures up to traditional junction boxes but I assume the constant spring pressure in the Wago connector maintains the connection potentially better than a screw which can loosen over a long time of thermal cycling


Bother! My maths is now failing, thank you.


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## Valhalla (Sunday at 00:16)

deema said:


> I can’t think of a single reason why the RCBO is a better solution.


You will at least know immediately which circuit has a fault condition - but is that worth the additional cost of installing rcbos .....probably not


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## Phil Pascoe (Sunday at 07:17)

deema said:


> I’ve sat on a few committees that have set the regulations, it never ceased to amaze me how regulations were changed to meet the needs of additional profits and business for the company’s that sat on the very same committees.


My father many moons ago was a builder. He was advised by a planning committee that his men should no longer cut roofs, he should use fink trusses. Some while later he discovered that a councillor on the committee owned the only local firm making the trusses.


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## NormanB (Sunday at 10:07)

mikej460 said:


> I'm in the middle of totally refurbishing an old kitchen and hall into an open plan ding room. This work involved removing the internal wall and ripping out the old ceiling, ready for rewiring and new pipework. I found a lot of dead wires and even a few unterminated live wires. I'm currently wiring the new lighting circuit so I'll share one scary example of what I found:
> 
> View attachment 150667
> 
> The new 2 way lighting circuit will use 3 core and earth between the two switches, a wago box (screwed to a joist) and 224 connectors to wire in the feed wire and switched live wire. I use wago connectors on most wiring projects now.


I have seen that and worse in ‘new builds’ - much of the U.K. housing stock is probably of a similar lash up.


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## Phil Pascoe (Sunday at 10:10)

Yeah, at least his junction boxes had the covers on them.


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## NormanB (Sunday at 10:17)

deema said:


> I believe Wago connectors have a maximum specified resistance of 20m Ohm, or 0.2 Ohm. Doesn’t sound much but if you use them say in a 32A line that’s a power dissipation of circa 200 watts…..more than a few A+ rated light bulbs…….so you don’t want to use many.


And what is the specified resistance of a choc block?


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## Spectric (Sunday at 11:42)

deema said:


> A RCBO is simply a MCB and RCD in one unit, far more expensive than MCB’s covered by a single RCD. I can’t think of a single reason why the RCBO is a better solution.



Think of a two RCD consumer unit, five circuits on each RCD with the circuits spread across the two RCD's. A fault occurs in let's say an external light and trips the RCD, now you lose all those circuits on that RCD which might include a fridge or freezer or your heating system and you can imagine the potential consequences. With RCBO's you will only ever lose that one particular circuit, a fault in one has no impact on any of the others.



deema said:


> You would have a very hard time trying to ignite V0 material, so I don’t buy into metal boxes to resolve the perceived fire risk of the box. They used to be metal before plastic took over!!!! Plastic was seen as presenting a lower chance of electrocution.!!!



I have seen plastic junction boxes and such that have deformed / discoloured through heat but not any that have actually resulted in combustion. Modern plastics are fine in domestic enviroments, metal was used in industrial due to supposedly better protection from impact but again Pvc conduit can take a lot of impact and polycarbonate is great when you want something that cannot be easily smashed with a hammer. This latest change to using metal consumer units with sealed cable entry does seem OTT, especially now we no longer used the old wired fuses and have residual current protection and going back even further the fuse boxes were wooden.


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## John Brown (Sunday at 12:33)

Off on a tangent here, but I seem to remember a recent John Ward YouTube, in which he explained how most current (in the non-electrical sense) RCDs(so RCBOs as well) are fairly useless, with the proliferation of switch mode power supplies and inverter drive appliances?


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## Spectric (Sunday at 12:51)

The problem with switch mode power supplies is they can induce a larger current into the CPC due to the filtering capacitors and will cause issues with residual current protective devices and nuisance tripping. Under the 18th regs look up BS7671 Reg 531.33.2 which essentially states that the maximum earth leakage on each RCD must not exceed 30% of the nominal value, so your 30mA RCD's must not have more than 9mA. To achieve this might require additional RCBO's to spread the leakage so more cost to the consumer and more expense with equipment for the electrician.


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## somean49 (Monday at 06:54)

Spectric said:


> Think of a two RCD consumer unit, five circuits on each RCD with the circuits spread across the two RCD's. A fault occurs in let's say an external light and trips the RCD, now you lose all those circuits on that RCD which might include a fridge or freezer or your heating system and you can imagine the potential consequences. With RCBO's you will only ever lose that one particular circuit, a fault in one has no impact on any of the others.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen plastic junction boxes and such that have deformed / discoloured through heat but not any that have actually resulted in combustion. Modern plastics are fine in domestic enviroments, metal was used in industrial due to supposedly better protection from impact but again Pvc conduit can take a lot of impact and polycarbonate is great when you want something that cannot be easily smashed with a hammer. This latest change to using metal consumer units with sealed cable entry does seem OTT, especially now we no longer used the old wired fuses and have residual current protection and going back even further the fuse boxes were wooden.


I believe the requirement for metal clad consumer units/fuseboxes was driven by the concerns of the fire and rescue services: in fires the plastic enclosures could melt causing live conductors to fall into the pooled water pumped into the burning building. This had consequences for the safety of fire fighters and other emergency service personnel.


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## Spectric (Monday at 10:41)

somean49 said:


> was driven by the concerns of the fire and rescue services: in fires the plastic enclosures could melt causing live conductors to fall into the pooled water pumped into the burning building.


I think that is a very feable excuse from someone, I fully understood the need for wiring in commercial premises to be supported in such a way that it did not hang down when a ceiling came down and this to an extent can apply to domestic but a fuseboard melting to the point a conductor remains live and hangs into a pool of water, I have seen boards burnt in house fires but they become a charred mass with everything glooped together.


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## deema (Monday at 10:52)

Have a look at the box the main fuses and meter sit in……as are all new ones…….plastic!! It’s a F****ing joke. So, the consumer unit has to be metal , but the infeed goes through two boxes that are…..plastic.
This is a classic example of how regs are corrupted and what frustrated the hell out of me when I sat on them.


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## Spectric (Monday at 16:12)

I think if they were really serious about safety in a domestic enviroment then there would have been a lot more precise advice and less ambiguity in the regulations which in itself is misleading as they are guidance. They are concerned about the plastic CU but what about the fumes from Pvc cable and they still allow ring mains sixty years after the copper shortage that introduced them. I think in domestic it all comes down to cost and not upsetting property developers who have already got round using electricians for cheaper domestic installers.


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## HOJ (Monday at 18:15)

I'm having a battle with an EICR done on a property where the "electrician" has raised a C2 for not having an RCD on the lighting circuits, 20 year old property, at worst its a C3 even then its still not necessary to assign a condition at all, he gave a nice price to "fix it" as well...

Not having an issue with the fact there is or isn't RCD's its the principal of trying to con someone (90 year old) to generate business, when it is done in a way that terrifies them.


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## deema (Monday at 18:47)

@HOJ report him, the body is toothless, ie won’t revoke or even investigate his competence, but, you can get an opinion, which you can then use for either social media review of his practices, or to defend why you don’t need to do it. 
I had an silly person do an electrical safety check who decided all the down lighters needed replacing……for around £3K. He insisted he was right about his interpretation of the regs, but I was one of those who had created a guidance note on the subject. Let’s put it this way I ensured I did as much damage to his business as possible. Rip off merchants need to be shut down.


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## Valhalla (Monday at 19:01)

Spectric said:


> domestic installers.


What's one of them then? During my time on the tools (in a very very different life) I worked on all manner of electrical systems - refrigeration, fire alarms, medical facilities, nurse-call systems and BMS (to name a few) and we had a comprehensive understanding of all these sytems. Imagine my total disbelief when I found out I couldn't rewire my own house unless I has some part P cert. If I did it blind-folded I would still turn out a better job than a lot of the monkeys out there with all those pseudo qualifications. I gave up my JIB card years ago....not worth the plastic they're printed on.


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## Spectric (Monday at 19:14)

Valhalla said:


> What's one of them then?


A domestic installer is NOT a qualified electrical engineer but someone who does wiring in domestic properties ONLY, they do not need any qualifications but must be a member of a competant persons scheme and have insurance. Gone are the days of a qualified electrician wiring houses, the property developers wanted to cut cost and maximise profits for the shareholders and so they can buy bigger yachts so along came a domestic installer, just de-skilling to max out returns and is why new builds are often just badly built sheds. Having seen some of their work I would not let them change a light bulb, I believe that a good underlying understanding of a subject allows much better judgement and decision making, plus you can see when something is wrong much easier.



Domestic Installer – Electrical Qualifications


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## Spectric (Monday at 19:21)

HOJ said:


> I'm having a battle with an EICR done on a property where the "electrician" has raised a C2 for not having an RCD on the lighting circuits,


The current regulations state that all circuits must be protected by a residual current device, including lighting but unless it is a rental property then the current regulations do not need to be retrofitted to older installations. If inspecting a property to issue an EICR which is for rental then you need to ensure safety and it would not be unreasonable to request residual current protection on all circuits simply to provide that level of protection, peace of mind for landlord and no comebacks on the person signingthe EICR.


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## Valhalla (Monday at 20:09)

Spectric said:


> must be a member of a competant persons scheme


So by definition - having a JIB gold card makes someone a member of a competent persons scheme??


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## MikeJhn (Tuesday at 07:08)

Spectric said:


> A domestic installer is NOT a qualified electrical engineer but someone who does wiring in domestic properties ONLY, they do not need any qualifications but must be a member of a competant persons scheme and have insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> Domestic Installer – Electrical Qualifications


Not trying to start an argument, but where does it say in any legislation that someone offering themselves as an domestic electrician MUST be a member of a competent persons scheme, that link you posted is a sponsored link from a training organisation, so a vested interest.


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## HOJ (Tuesday at 08:33)

@Spectric Its an owner occupied property up for sale, purchaser had the EICR done, now wants to re negotiate price, oh and they had a drain survey done, guess what, apparently they need fixing & that will be £xxx.xx + extras etc, had an independent survey done, nothing wrong with them..


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## deema (Tuesday at 09:47)

EICR reports are like printing money for a lot of people. It’s not often they come across anyone who either knows the regs or is interested enough to look up and interpret what they say. So, it’s wide open for corruption as there is absolutely no regulation. It was an absolute backward step IMO it’s introduction.


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## Spectric (Tuesday at 10:28)

HOJ said:


> Its an owner occupied property up for sale, purchaser had the EICR done, now wants to re negotiate price,


They are just looking for any excuse to knock the price, if the electrical installation is safe even if not meeting current regs then the EICR should be issued, it may just note / advise that it might be prudent to provide RCD protection for the lighting circuit but if they want an all singing 18th edition consumer unit with RCBO's then that is something they can undertake once they own the property.


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## Spectric (Tuesday at 10:44)

MikeJhn said:


> but where does it say in any legislation that someone offering themselves as an domestic electrician MUST be a member of a competent persons scheme,


This competant persons scheme is government pushed and is both de-skilling and trying to meet shortages in labour. It applies to not only domestic installers but other building trades. 

Have a read of Competent person scheme - current schemes and how schemes are authorised


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## deema (Tuesday at 11:02)

Spectric said:


> They are just looking for any excuse to knock the price, if the electrical installation is safe even if not meeting current regs then the EICR should be issued, it may just note / advise that it might be prudent to provide RCD protection for the lighting circuit but if they want an all singing 18th edition consumer unit with RCBO's then that is something they can undertake once they own the property.


Yes and no. Virtually nobody knows the regs apart from those involved with them, and most of them debate what they actually require!. So the poor purchaser has an EICR done to see how much of a cowboy / cowgirl / cow person has had their paws over the job……which tells you very little in reality……and then understandably asks the owner to either put right or discount the property to the tune of what ever the report requires and recommendations suggestEd.
Sparky has a vested interest in finding / inventing anything, as they are highly likely to be asked to be asked to do the job by either the vendor or the purchaser.
Now, both parties are caught, there is no independant body they can appeal to, so they end up finding a solution or walking away. We have regulation in the UK without any form of policing of the system which leads to complete corruption and shoddy work to boot.


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## MikeJhn (Tuesday at 11:38)

Spectric said:


> This competant persons scheme is government pushed and is both de-skilling and trying to meet shortages in labour. It applies to not only domestic installers but other building trades.
> 
> Have a read of Competent person scheme - current schemes and how schemes are authorised


Interesting link, but no where does it say that to work as a domestic electrician you MUST be a member of the register: Home


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## Spectric (Tuesday at 13:24)

If you are not an electrician and not on a competant persons scheme then all your work would have to be inspected at your cost which I believe would be prohibitive, so the competant persons schemes are forced upon you. There are a lot of electricians that are time served and fully qualified that look at the domestic installer as just DIY'ers because they do lack that understanding you gain through academia.


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## Spectric (Tuesday at 13:31)

deema said:


> So the poor purchaser has an EICR done to see how much of a cowboy / cowgirl / cow person has had their paws over the job……which tells you very little in reality……and then understandably asks the owner to either put right or discount the property to the tune of what ever the report requires and recommendations suggestEd.


The best thing to do in these circumstances is just to stand by the price and tell the potential buyer to either buy it or find something else, you don't want to go down that route otherwise they will find all sorts of issues in trying to get the price down. Another idea would be to get a second opinion from maybe a more experienced electrician who can apply some common sense and understands that there are a huge number of properties that don't comply with the latest regs and that does not mean the property is not electrically safe.


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## MikeJhn (Tuesday at 21:04)

Spectric said:


> If you are not an electrician and not on a competant persons scheme then all your work would have to be inspected at your cost which I believe would be prohibitive, so the competant persons schemes are forced upon you. There are a lot of electricians that are time served and fully qualified that look at the domestic installer as just DIY'ers because they do lack that understanding you gain through academia.


Again not trying to start an argument, but it seems there is some confusion about what is legally required.

Inspected by whom and to what end? Most professional domestic electricians call these scheme's, Scams and try to avoid them, indeed most I know have resigned from them after paying the exorbitant fees for a number of years for no benefit.

An electrician does not have to be a member of a competent persons scheme to offer their services, they just have to be competent.

There is no such thing as a fully qualified domestic electrician, there is no legislation or professional body that an electrician can be a member of and no legally binding regulations that they must follow, only the made up out of thin air "EIT Regulations" which have not been legislated, passed through Government, given Royal assent or passed into law by the Secretary of State.

Some of the awful electrical work/practice's I have seen will not change until there is a recognised professional body responsible for the standards required and not the convenient made up ones that appear out of thin air to jump on the bandwagon of the miss-placed competence scheme's.

The additional problem (my own Association/Institute included) is the agenda of the Board to increase membership above all else, I have first hand knowledge of this.


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## Phil Pascoe (Tuesday at 21:34)

I think rules and regulations should be law and not merely advisory therefore be totally unambiguous, therefore not needing any "interpretation" - indeed, interpretation shouldn't be possible.


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## John Brown (Tuesday at 22:44)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I think rules and regulations should be law and not merely advisory therefore be totally unambiguous, therefore not needing any "interpretation" - indeed, interpretation shouldn't be possible.


While I agree with the spirit of what you say, in a world where language mutates and evolves, to the extent where "literally" can now be used to mean "virtually", there will always be room for interpretation. Stick to Latin, maybe?


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## Spectric (Tuesday at 22:45)

MikeJhn said:


> they just have to be competent


How do they prove that? If you take the electrical engineers route then you get experience by working for a firm whilst doing the apprenticeship and formal qualifications from day release. If you don't want to become a fully qualified electrician and just want to wire domestic then you to become a domestic installer and need to prove compentancy by registering with someone like NICEIC. It is along the same lines as gas safe, Quote

Registered Competent Person Electrical is a single point of reference for consumers seeking a domestic electrician to carry out work in their home. The register contains a comprehensive list of all full scope Part P registered electricians in England and Wales.

All domestic electrical installers registered with NICEIC are listed on Registered Competent Person Electrical. They can be found at www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk and are authorised to use the logo alongside their Competent Person Scheme Operator’s logo. This is to ensure consumers have just one intuitive logo to recognise but are still able to access robust support, such as the work quality guarantee.

Registered installers are encouraged to promote this dual logo to customers to verify their competence and raise awareness of the single point of reference. 



MikeJhn said:


> Inspected by whom and to what end?


If a person undertakes electrical work and they are not on a competancy scheme like NICEIC then either a qualified electrician or someone with the part P must perform a test and inspection in order to certify the job, this is mandatory and BC needs the certs.


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## MikeJhn (Tuesday at 22:51)

Agree, but the Part P registration and certificate are the responsibility of the home owner. Strange world!

Just to clarify, Part P is a regulation not a qualification.

And you don't have to be a member of any scheme to carry out an inspection.


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## deema (Tuesday at 23:21)

It’s a very strange world. You will find my signature on the certificate of conformance for many different types of electrical test equipment made up to about twenty years ago and used to commission everything from power stations down to private dwellings and yet despite being a Chartered Electrical and Electronics Engineer who certified the instruments measure what is needed to issue the certificates I cannot certify the wiring in my own home. I once could, but then it was changed which was ridiculous.


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## Valhalla (Tuesday at 23:29)

MikeJhn said:


> they just have to be competent.


Define competency in an electrical installation context.....I'll wager that for every positive there will be many negatives


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## MikeJhn (Yesterday at 07:30)

Valhalla said:


> Define competency in an electrical installation context.....I'll wager that for every positive there will be many negatives


Someone who can wire a plug correctly, first time.


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## cmoops2 (Yesterday at 09:13)

Correct ! (unlike gas for which the law demands registration) ....


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## MikeJhn (Yesterday at 10:05)

A Local Authority Building Control have no authority to insist that anyone issuing a Part P notification or an EICR is a member of a scheme, in my experience they are not interested in an EICR as in most case's they do not have the experience/expertise to interoperate the results.


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## Woody Alan (Yesterday at 17:49)

> in my experience they are not interested in an EICR as in most case's they do not have the experience/expertise to interoperate the results


I would have to agree with that. I used to do electrical wiring industrially as part of equipmment installation until quite a few years ago the company split the equipment installation and electrical connection apart. I would consider myself competent and wired out my own extension on the house and used the firms contractors to test inspect the installation and at the same time do a full test on the whole house(because it was free). They found one earth fault on the existing part on a light(dis earth) BC were not in the slightest bit interested in the report on the whole thing, just the single piece of paper saying part P.

I get frustrated with the whole competency thing as an individual who takes these things seriously I even bought the regs book and researched to make sure I was up to date. There are many horror stories of new builds with faulty /incorrectly wired electrics. A simple example was the power extension to an outbuilding with exported earth fed by 100mA breaker at the house to protect the cable and 30Ma consumer in the building the tester was surprised at the armour only being earthed at the house because most electricians incorrectly earth both ends. (seperate earth core for board) it's a lottery with electricians I've found everyone you ask a tricky question you get a different answer. Mostly some of these errors are not unsafe as such but I like to know these things and think that makes me competent but how do you prove it .


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## MikeJhn (Yesterday at 21:02)

Yes you are not supposed to export an earth to an outbuilding, the outbuilding should be TT'd.


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## Woody Alan (Yesterday at 22:31)

MikeJhn said:


> Yes you are not supposed to export an earth to an outbuilding, the outbuilding should be TT'd.


I knew somebody would come up with that response to illustrate my point. You are partly correct in your statement in that it is a method and probably the first go to especially if the building has metal infrastructure, but not entirely correct as it was approved by my electrician colleague with NICEIC when we were unable to get a satisfactory test by local earth. 
This is one of the reasons I rarely post on forums anymore because I cannot be bothered with having to justify the reality to people stuck in their bubble of perceived knowledge whose first step is to attack rather than phrase something like " Oh that's unusual, why didn't you use the TT method?" . I'll let you have the last word as I'm sure you will be offended or feel the need to support your statement but at the end of the day it was approved at installation and then approved by qualified electricians on a full documented test.
As I said as many different viewpoints as there are electricians, not neccessarily all wrong.


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## MikeJhn (Yesterday at 23:05)

Where do you get the idea from that someone attacked you?


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