# The realities of tool ownership...



## nickds1 (10 Aug 2021)

Saw this on the Northern Line last Sunday.

Plainly copywriters have no idea at all about the realities of tool ownership... 

Made me think though. I can't even remember how many drills I have, but it's certainly **way** more than 2.8


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## Alpha-Dave (10 Aug 2021)

Interesting! I have:
Mains-powered drills x4
Battery powered drills x2
Pillar drills x2
Hand-cranked drills x2

Although only half of each type would probably count as ‘currently working’.


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## Rorschach (10 Aug 2021)

Power drills, umm 4, cordless 3, hand drills maybe 5 or 6, not sure. Pillar drill, 1, lathe 3.


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## Selwyn (10 Aug 2021)

Renting often never pays well.

By the time you go to pick something up and drop it off and hire it


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## clogs (10 Aug 2021)

my wife just ask's "how many xxxx does 1 man need".......hahaha
I just say not as many shoes as u....


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## novocaine (10 Aug 2021)

The British population is approximately 60m. It os a fair spilt of around 30m male and 30m female. The average length for sex is 3 minutes. So a cock is used on average.......

Basically we dont need cock, you'd be better to hire one.


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## MARK.B. (10 Aug 2021)

You been talking to my Mrs novocaine


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## Monger (10 Aug 2021)

Selwyn said:


> Renting often never pays well.
> 
> By the time you go to pick something up and drop it off and hire it



I think a drill is a poor example. Renting ladders makes sense.

Much more economic to purchase a drill rather than drive in traffic to the hire place every time you need one. And have to go back as you forgot a screw.

Would make more sense to borrow your neighbours drill every time. Not sure they’d be happy if it broke though.


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## flying haggis (10 Aug 2021)

Renting ladders as suggested is ok if you have a means of transporting them or are happy to pay the delivery charge. the downside is if you decide that you are going to paint the soffits on aparticular day and it then pees it down you have wasted the hire charge. If you have somewhere to store a ladder Gumtree etc is your friend. 
like this on my local Gumtree








Used Ladders & Step-Ladders for Sale in Norwich, Norfolk | Gumtree


Discover amazing local deals on used ladders & step-ladders for sale in Norwich, Norfolk ✅ Shop hassle-free with Gumtree, your local buying & selling community.




www.gumtree.com




I thought about renting a long reach hedge trimmer to do our hedges but worked out that over the lifetime of using one it worked out cheaper to buy my own. then if it rains it waits till next week, and you dont have to do all the work at once if you own as opposed to hire


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## Rorschach (10 Aug 2021)

Very few tools (excluding plant such as diggers) works out to be more economic to hire rather than buy. Even if you don't have the space to store it or need to use it again it can often be cheaper and a lot less hassle to buy new or second hand, use it and then sell it on afterwards.

An example, I can buy a new concrete mixer for about the cost of a weeks hire, I can buy a second hand mixer for about the cost of a long weekends hire. I can sell the new mixer for about 50% of new price so in reality very cheap, I could sell the second hand mixer for probably almost what I paid for it, possibly even more if I cleaned it up. So why hire?


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## Cirks (11 Aug 2021)

On a purely financial basis, there are probably better examples to use than drills as most aren’t stunningly expensive for the diy type tasks that someone who doesn’t own one already is likely to use one for (eg putting up a shelf or drilling for a few screw holes etc). I can fully understand hiring though for those who barely ever use tools (unlikely to be anyone on this site). 
I did think about hiring 1st fix nail gun when I built my summerhouse but in the end bought one with aim of reselling.....of course I’ve still got it! Not sure when I’ll use again though.
Looking on local neighbourhood sites, I can’t believe how many posts there are asking for a handyman for really basic tasks (flatpack assembly; putting up shelf or picture) so those people more likely to pay someone to do a job than to hire a tool.


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## Geoff_S (11 Aug 2021)

Let’s just add borrowing into the mix. Now, where do I start?


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## Droogs (11 Aug 2021)

B&D designed their home DIY tools in the 80s to have a motor life 3 hours before component failure. They had calculated by the time the machine had reached that point, most had been owned for at least 3 years and a big chunk over 4 by the buyer. Hence the reason for the very poor quality of DIY tools when compared to those used by serious amatuer and professionals.


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## Rorschach (11 Aug 2021)

Droogs said:


> B&D designed their home DIY tools in the 80s to have a motor life 3 hours before component failure. They had calculated by the time the machine had reached that point, most had been owned for at least 3 years and a big chunk over 4 by the buyer. Hence the reason for the very poor quality of DIY tools when compared to those used by serious amatuer and professionals.



Any evidence for this, or just another urban myth?
Making cheap tools is not the same as purposely designing them to fail at a specific point.


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## Droogs (11 Aug 2021)

As stated by ex B&D employees who where members here many years ago. There are some threads about it and stuff from a good few years ago.


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## Rorschach (11 Aug 2021)

Droogs said:


> As stated by ex B&D employees who where members here many years ago. There are some threads about it and stuff from a good few years ago.



Sounds like a good yarn from old chaps wanting to make their lives sound more interesting to me. A lot of effort to design a component to fail purposely over just throwing in the cheapest part they could that would do the job for a while.


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## Droogs (11 Aug 2021)

I ddin't write it very well they didn't design it to fail just made sure it lasted long enough


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## DIYDad (11 Aug 2021)

nickds1 said:


> Saw this on the Northern Line last Sunday.
> 
> Plainly copywriters have no idea at all about the realities of tool ownership...
> 
> ...


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## Rorschach (11 Aug 2021)

Droogs said:


> I ddin't write it very well they didn't design it to fail just made sure it lasted long enough



Ah ok that's a different then. I can absolutely see their R&D department saying "We think this will get used for 3 hours over it's lifespan, we tested this motor and it lasted more than 3 hours, so that will do".


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## Jonm (11 Aug 2021)

Droogs said:


> B&D designed their home DIY tools in the 80s to have a motor life 3 hours before component failure. They had calculated by the time the machine had reached that point, most had been owned for at least 3 years and a big chunk over 4 by the buyer. Hence the reason for the very poor quality of DIY tools when compared to those used by serious amatuer and professionals.


I bought a B&D drill in mid 70’s, 1/2 inch chuck, two speed hammer drill. Used it extensively, you could remove the chuck and add on attachments like circular saw, jigsaw, sander, bench holder etc. I remember borrowing a circular saw attachment.

I used it extensively, hammer action went first, bearings rattled, had to rebuild the switch but when you pulled the trigger it went round and round. It ended up permanently in a bench clamp with a grind stone in it till I obtained a bench grinder. Threw it out in a house move.

It lasted a lot more than 3 hours. Perhaps the 1980’s policy lead to its demise, from one time market leader.
Picture of drill model (not the actual one) attached


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## DIYDad (11 Aug 2021)

Interesting concept but I’m not sure I’d want to hire out my tools every weekend. You can guarantee the tool you need would be on hire!
It’s not cheap either £7 a day for a £35 Bosch tool! ……although….any takers to hire a Domino for £200 for a day anyone?


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Aug 2021)

flying haggis said:


> Renting ladders as suggested is ok if you have a means of transporting them or are happy to pay the delivery charge. the downside is if you decide that you are going to paint the soffits on aparticular day and it then pees it down you have wasted the hire charge. If you have somewhere to store a ladder Gumtree etc is your friend.
> like this on my local Gumtree
> 
> 
> ...



20 years ago I bought a 16 rung extending ladder for £80 new. The local hire shop wanted £47.50 per week to hire one. My chimney rebuild took six weeks instead of two because of the weather. Work it out.  The downside being of course that you need somewhere to store the thing.


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## Terrytpot (11 Aug 2021)

nickds1 said:


> View attachment 115656


It would seem that most of us on here fall well outside the norm in needing more than 3 minutes a year of usage from our drills (I do have to wonder how they reached that figure, even my mum’s drill that she’s never used has had more usage than that) . Maybe the statistic actually refers to a drill bit and not the actual drill itself as most people capable of drilling holes have quite an assortment of bits but will do most of the drilling they want in quite a limited amount of diameters.


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## dickm (11 Aug 2021)

clogs said:


> my wife just ask's "how many xxxx does 1 man need".......hahaha
> I just say not as many shoes as u....


"the unexplained death of Mr Clogs is being investigated by the police.................."


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## stuart little (11 Aug 2021)

Monger said:


> I think a drill is a poor example. Renting ladders makes sense.
> 
> Much more economic to purchase a drill rather than drive in traffic to the hire place every time you need one. And have to go back as you forgot a screw.
> 
> Would make more sense to borrow your neighbours drill every time. Not sure they’d be happy if it broke though.


Yes, what use is a ladder if you don't 'hire' it?!!


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## Ollyis (11 Aug 2021)

nickds1 said:


> Saw this on the Northern Line last Sunday.
> 
> Plainly copywriters have no idea at all about the realities of tool ownership...
> 
> ...





nickds1 said:


> Saw this on the Northern Line last Sunday.
> 
> Plainly copywriters have no idea at all about the realities of tool ownership...
> 
> ...





To be fair to the copywriter; he or she has got us all talking, got their ad reposted on this forum and got the brand noticed by more people as a result. They've done their job. Fat Llama (terrible name btw) rent all sorts of stuff by the look of their site, it's not just a tool hire co, so who knows, we may be renting a drone or a camera lens from them as a result.

Bad copy is copy that gets ignored. This has at least stimulated a debate.

For the record, I am a copywriter and I do own more than 2.8 drills.


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## Droogs (11 Aug 2021)

my Mrs is a proofreader and copyeditor and owns no drills what so ever


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## ivan (11 Aug 2021)

I lived in Birmingham in the mid '70's, and had a mate (Doctorate in Metallergy) who worked for Lucas. I remembering him complaining that he had to research materials for distributor contact breakers that would work OK for just over a design life of one year. Just don't get me started on the design life of washing machine drum bearings...


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## Jonm (12 Aug 2021)

I looked at the Fat Lama website. Interesting concept, zoom in to your local area, then do a search and it comes up with local people hiring out things, not just tools. I would have thought lots on here could hire out tools.

My concern would be liability, hiring a tool is completely different to lending it. Most tools can cause injury and how do you prove it was safe when you hired it out. I could not see anything on the website to cover this.

Fat Lama charge 15% of the hire fee to the lender, and 15% to the borrower.


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## MorrisWoodman12 (12 Aug 2021)

Jonm said:


> Fat Lama charge 15% of the hire fee to the lender, and 15% to the borrower.


No wonder it's a FAT Llama


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## MorrisWoodman12 (12 Aug 2021)

Jonm said:


> I bought a B&D drill in mid 70’s, 1/2 inch chuck, two speed hammer drill. Used it extensively, you could remove the chuck and add on attachments like circular saw, jigsaw, sander, bench holder etc. I remember borrowing a circular saw attachment.
> 
> I used it extensively, hammer action went first, bearings rattled, had to rebuild the switch but when you pulled the trigger it went round and round. It ended up permanently in a bench clamp with a grind stone in it till I obtained a bench grinder. Threw it out in a house move.
> 
> ...



I still have exactly the same model bought to drill into concrete lintels in my first house so 48 years old. Think I've had my moneys worth. Still used occasionally. Yes my hammer action broke too. Mended myself care of Cambridge Instruments model shop circa 1976. So


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## clogs (12 Aug 2021)

think the general idea of B n Decker was dont use a bearing when a bush will do.....then they didnt have fancy self lube plastic, I bet it's what would be fitted if they did....and they couldnt'd buy Chineseium at the time....
pretty much that was the only make available apart from Wolf at the time I left for California, 50 years ago.....
tooling over there was a revelation.....Makita, Skill sidewinder saws etc.....even nail guns...proper affordable compressors and we wont get into machine and automotive tools.........
ALL available for the DIY brigade should u wish....
Most of the probs with brit stuff is the management.....just build it good enough to get away with it......
Ford could build a Transit world beater to take on Sprinters should they wish....
and I won't mention those idiots in the past at Triumph / Norton....
over n out.......hahaha....


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## Jonm (12 Aug 2021)

clogs said:


> and I won't mention those idiots in the past at Triumph / Norton....
> over n out.......hahaha....


Some years ago, a friend of mine was looking to buy a new house. His wife liked the look and location of a house in Meriden. My friend was not so keen as it was near the Triumph motorcycle factory. They visited the house and bought it. It was located on the site of the factory.


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## Dangermouse 2nd (12 Aug 2021)

The word "Supposedly " induces me to believe the are really squirting hot air out their rectum....


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## Spectric (12 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> A lot of effort to design a component to fail purposely over just throwing in the cheapest part they could that would do the job for a while.


This is very true, a large company I worked for had many test facilities for what was termed durability testing amongst others and if a component report suggested a longer life cycle than was required then it was immediately subject for cost saving, could be reduction in material, level of temper or a weight reduction program, anything to save money otherwise it would be over engineered and unwanted cost.


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## Rorschach (12 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> This is very true, a large company I worked for had many test facilities for what was termed durability testing amongst others and if a component report suggested a longer life cycle than was required then it was immediately subject for cost saving, could be reduction in material, level of temper or a weight reduction program, anything to save money otherwise it would be over engineered and unwanted cost.



A very sensible policy really, no need to over engineer something and waste time, money and resources. Only problem comes when it's such a reduction in lifespan as to make the product not fit for purpose. Hitting that sweet spot is a real skill, probably the best at doing so are car manufacturers, a modern car is a near perfect balance of durability and economy.


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## Spectric (12 Aug 2021)

Another problem with hiring out tools is that unless you know the person well you do not know in what condition the tool will be returned. If you need breakers, mixers and paddies mopeds etc there are plenty of places to hire, but for us in woodworking I doubt if there is a market for mitre saws and drills.


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## Sheptonphil (14 Aug 2021)

Terrytpot said:


> It would seem that most of us on here fall well outside the norm in needing more than 3 minutes a year of usage from our drills (I do have to wonder how they reached that figure, even my mum’s drill that she’s never used has had more usage than that) . Maybe the statistic actually refers to a drill bit and not the actual drill itself as most people capable of drilling holes have quite an assortment of bits but will do most of the drilling they want in quite a limited amount of diameters.


I’m not so sure, at approx 10seconds a hole, thats 18 holes a year. I‘ll bet I drill hundreds of holes a year, but step son probably does 4 or 6 In a year. His drill will be ‘as new’ if sold in ten years time.


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## nickds1 (14 Aug 2021)

My in-laws were famers.

I only leant a decent tool to my father-in-law once.

Never, ever, again...


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## heimlaga (18 Aug 2021)

Most drills sold are probably of such terrible quality that they only last a few minutes of use......

My power tools tend to be used until the commutator is worn out. Those blasted sprouts have quit selling spare commutators separately.......... and without a new commutator is is not worth the effort to rewind a burned out armature.......

Ny favourite hate objects at the moment are the designers who use non standard bearings in angle grinders........ A professional grade angle grinder only lasts a few years before the bearings fail and then it cannot be rebuilt as the propriatory parts cost more than a new angle grinder.


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## JobandKnock (18 Aug 2021)

clogs said:


> pretty much that was the only make available apart from Wolf at the time I left for California, 50 years ago.....


You missed both Stanley-Bridges and Arcoy which were on the market in 1971... My first drill (for work) was a Stanley-Bridges



clogs said:


> Ford could build a Transit world beater to take on Sprinters should they wish....


Surely that's the wrong way round? Vans like the Sprinter, Crafter, Vivaro, etc came about because Ford built the Transit. But that was a joint effort with Cologne, wasn't it?


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## Bigegg (20 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Hitting that sweet spot is a real skill, probably the best at doing so are car manufacturers, a modern car is a near perfect balance of durability and economy.



This is why I own a 20y/o Lexus:
Cost me £1500 with 250,000 miles on it:
You'd be hard pushed to believe it's not 4years old with 30,000 miles on it.

My last lexus cost me £800 and I kept it for 8 years: never failed an MOT. never needed anything except brakes, tyres, and servicing - and drove better than my GF's brand new Ford.

I only sold it because I needed an estate - and it's still on the road somewhere up Newcastle way.

My daughter just got a french thing: new. It's been back to the dealers three times already.


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## Bigegg (20 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> You missed both Stanley-Bridges and Arcoy which were on the market in 1971... My first drill (for work) was a Stanley-Bridges
> 
> 
> Surely that's the wrong way round? Vans like the Sprinter, Crafter, Vivaro, etc came about because Ford built the Transit. But that was a joint effort with Cologne, wasn't it?



If Ford made a transit with bodywork as indestructible as their 2.5n/a bananananana engine, nobody would ever need to buy another.


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## JobandKnock (20 Aug 2021)

Mercs are hardly problem free, though. Mk.1 Vitos were absolute rot boxes and Sprinters have had their problems as well. Current Vitos are a lot better, but the VW T5 is better still (at least in rust terms). I've had a couple of Transits in the past, but they were the ones with separate chassis (and coach built bodies). They didn't seem too bad in terms of rust other than the front wings, maybe because they had a chassis, which is readily accessible


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## clogs (20 Aug 2021)

my Volvo 740 got retro fitted with a bannana Ford lump....I did it because the 5 cylinder VW they were using was [email protected]
it gave me 1/2 mill miles before she had to go, n thats cos the wife wouldn't drive it....

My old 2002 lwb 311 sprinter would out do anything a similar year ford Transit could do and use less fuel....
the Vito fell down cos they went front wheel drive and ate gearboxes that because they teamed up with Chrysler...Chrysler got the engines and Merc got the g/box....
the Vito MK2 went back to RWD and was much better thought of.....
(My last Merc car got left behind in S Africa, a 300D turbo.....wish I had it now)....
forget about the rot they all do.....but Ford messed up when they put the electronic main pump on...endless trouble even if u could find anyone to fix it....all the pump reconditioners I used flatly refused to have one in the place...... 
YES Ford were the first to build a decent modern van, I remember the MK1....so much better than the Thames garbage of before.....
but then like always they sat on it....and didn't re invest....typical Brit management....and as u say later Cologne got involved....fancier bodies and extras but what about the engine just before the Bannana, the dealer's couldnt give em away....I worked for a comp that had a fleet of over 100 of them....as soon as the bannana engine came out they all got auctioned off.....
I still wouldn't buy a Ford.....
and it's a pity Lexus didn't make a van but then we do have the world best selling pick up truck from the same group....but thats another story....
tara.....have a good weekend.....


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## Bigegg (21 Aug 2021)

My old lexus (GS300) had a GTW of 4.2T with a kerb weight of 2.2T.
Translation: it could pull a 2T trailer(!)
That was a 1.5T payload in my twin wheel box -
Which is _more_ than the transit could carry.
(Although, tbf, although the van only had a 1.2T payload, it could also tow a 2T trailer at the same time).

My newer lexus (IS300 Sportcross) will tow 1.5T - but towbars for it are so rare I doubt I'll _ever_ be able to find one.
(It took me 5 years to get one for the GS)


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## heimlaga (21 Aug 2021)

A modern car is just about as far from a sound ballance between economy and durability as one can get.

When it is old enough to become an affordable commuting vehicle for a not very well paid worker..... that is let's say 15 or 20 years old everything is crumbling and everything its built to make it as expensive and difficult to repair as possible.
However there is not much else one can do......... there is no money is smuggling wash basins and pitchforks and colour TVs and coffee theese days...... and very little money is smuggling tobacco and diesel fuel. Burglaries are too risky and all municipal dumps are off limits to scroungers.
So...... either you need to win the lottery without buying a ticket.... a rater unlikely occurance..... or drive a crumbling car.

My 1984 model Opel Kadett E (sold as Vauxhall Astra in UK) is actually much closer to a good ballance. With 350000 kilometres on the meter it is still a good user bringing me from point A to point B with minimal trouble. Not because parts last forever but because they can be repaired or shifted out with minimal effort whenever they fail. The only problem being the steadily worsening shortage of spare parts.


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## JobandKnock (21 Aug 2021)

So does that mean you are suggesting we return to driving Morris Minors? OK, the way this government in the UK is heading that might still become a reality for some... At least then I'd be able to service and maintain the things with just a basic tool kit (like I once used to). Ah, the mighty engine...


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## Spectric (21 Aug 2021)

I cannot knock the transit, or any other ford for that mater as they were what I first learned to weld, escorts and capri's with struts coming through the top plate and battery trays gone, not to mention floor pans, seatbelt mounting points and sills. With transits it was chassis and cabs but once you could weld a rust bucket you could weld anything.


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## Terry - Somerset (22 Aug 2021)

Many, many years ago I went to B&D for an interview in their finance area. Given the disciplines they had in place at that time to monitor costs and variances on a monthly basis I can completely believe that products were progressively engineered down in cost to maximise profit.

Early on B&D were market leaders with limited competition - B&D was to drills what Thermos was to vacuum flask. Plastics technology was less advanced and metal castings were used extensively.

Roll on to the 1990s and lots of new brands started appearing - cost cutting was key to profitability.

People on this forum make frequent use of tools. Most folk do DiY very occassionally. Complex or difficult tasks - call in a handyman or expert.

So the typical user will put up a shelf, fix a cupboard to a wall, drill a couple of holes for a hanging basket bracket etc. Not every day, not every weekend, but occassionally. Over the course of a year they may use the drill half a dozen times for a few minutes run time. 

If a tool lasts 3-4 years this is perceived as OK. If fortunately it lasts 5-10 years - brilliant product!!


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## stuart little (22 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> So does that mean you are suggesting we return to driving Morris Minors? OK, the way this government in the UK is heading that might still become a reality for some... At least then I'd be able to service and maintain the things with just a basic tool kit (like I once used to). Ah, the mighty engine...


At least all parts for a MM are available!


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## stuart little (22 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> I cannot knock the transit, or any other ford for that mater as they were what I first learned to weld, escorts and capri's with struts coming through the top plate and battery trays gone, not to mention floor pans, seatbelt mounting points and sills. With transits it was chassis and cabs but once you could weld a rust bucket you could weld anything.


The old Tranny diesel did the 'knocking', one needed ear defenders when working under the bonnet with engine running!


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## stuart little (22 Aug 2021)

heimlaga said:


> A modern car is just about as far from a sound ballance between economy and durability as one can get.
> 
> When it is old enough to become an affordable commuting vehicle for a not very well paid worker..... that is let's say 15 or 20 years old everything is crumbling and everything its built to make it as expensive and difficult to repair as possible.
> However there is not much else one can do......... there is no money is smuggling wash basins and pitchforks and colour TVs and coffee theese days...... and very little money is smuggling tobacco and diesel fuel. Burglaries are too risky and all municipal dumps are off limits to scroungers.
> ...


In 2001 I bought a new SAAB 9-3 2.0t auto, still got it with 30k miles, but since coviditis struck it's on a SORN, but although it's a 'car tax' rip-off @ £360/yr. I've no intension of buying anything else. I was self employed in the motor trade until retiring in 2009, before the newer 'unfixable' cars got to my workshop!


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## niemeyjt (22 Aug 2021)

clogs said:


> my Volvo 740 got retro fitted with a bannana Ford lump....I did it because the 5 cylinder VW they were using was [email protected]
> it gave me 1/2 mill miles before she had to go, n thats cos the wife wouldn't drive it....


Ah yes - I was warned off diesel 740s - and ended up with a 4 cylinder (2.3L?) petrol version - lovely car until Suffolk Police became involved.

Apparently the VW diesel Volvo used was from an LT van - where it was fitted inclined by 30 degrees or so. Fitting it vertically in a Volvo was behind at least some of the issues.

Talking of not getting what you expect, my current Toyota has a BMW engine - I only found out when I got a recall notice on it - the EGR catches fire or something like that.


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## stuart little (22 Aug 2021)

niemeyjt said:


> Ah yes - I was warned off diesel 740s - and ended up with a 4 cylinder (2.3L?) petrol version - lovely car until Suffolk Police became involved.
> 
> Apparently the VW diesel Volvo used was from an LT van - where it was fitted inclined by 30 degrees or so. Fitting it vertically in a Volvo was behind at least some of the issues.
> 
> Talking of not getting what you expect, my current Toyota has a BMW engine - I only found out when I got a recall notice on it - the EGR catches fire or something like that.


Porsche used the LT petrol engine in their 944.


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## hairy (22 Aug 2021)

Jonm said:


> I bought a B&D drill in mid 70’s, 1/2 inch chuck, two speed hammer drill. Used it extensively, you could remove the chuck and add on attachments like circular saw, jigsaw, sander, bench holder etc. I remember borrowing a circular saw attachment.
> 
> I used it extensively, hammer action went first, bearings rattled, had to rebuild the switch but when you pulled the trigger it went round and round. It ended up permanently in a bench clamp with a grind stone in it till I obtained a bench grinder. Threw it out in a house move.
> 
> ...


I've still got one of those that was my Grandads. I love it cos you can see the sparks from the pixies feet as they run round and round the magic wheel that drives it. Stinks too


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## stuart little (22 Aug 2021)

I bought a Wolf 1/2" drill back in 1969/70, it was used 'a lot' & lasted into about 2002, until an silly person in a neighbouring unit borrowed it & burned it out. I made do with cheapie ones after that. Good thing too as my Ferm corded drill sprouted legs! So only cordless until retirement & 'serious hobby DIY', then cheapies replaced with DW - NO loaning!


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## Cooper (22 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> So does that mean you are suggesting we return to driving Morris Minors? OK, the way this government in the UK is heading that might still become a reality for some... At least then I'd be able to service and maintain the things with just a basic tool kit (like I once used to). Ah, the mighty engine...


Not such a bad idea. I have just come back from Germany where we used a brand new hire car which had all the modern fandangos (an up grade) As I drove along if it didn't like the line I took birds sounded like a tropical jungle, when I passed other vehicles and had to leave space the steering wheel jumped as though I had driven into a trench left by heavy goods. Driving home from Stansted in my Y reg Fiesta was a delight.


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## Noel (22 Aug 2021)

stuart little said:


> Porsche used the LT petrol engine in their 944.



Didn't they develop a new 2.5 ltr unit for the car? Basically one bank from the 928's V8?
Perhaps you are thinking of the 924?


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## stuart little (23 Aug 2021)

Noel said:


> Didn't they develop a new 2.5 ltr unit for the car? Basically one bank from the 928's V8?
> Perhaps you are thinking of the 924?


AH, you may well be correct there mate, me & numbers & it was about 30yrs ago!


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## JobandKnock (23 Aug 2021)

Longer, surely?


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## Fergie 307 (23 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> Another problem with hiring out tools is that unless you know the person well you do not know in what condition the tool will be returned. If you need breakers, mixers and paddies mopeds etc there are plenty of places to hire, but for us in woodworking I doubt if there is a market for mitre saws and drills.


So true. Having had a couple of bad experiences I now never lend tools in any circumstances whatsoever. You never know if the otherwise perfectly sensible and intelligent individual you know may turn out to be a cack handed tool butcher. One of my dad's favourite expressions is "you could give him a battleship to dust and he'd break it". I'm sure we can all think of someone we know who fits the bill.


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## stuart little (24 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Longer, surely?


It was getting on a bit when it got to my workshop, as I worked on older cars - MG, MM. 2CV etc.


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## stuart little (24 Aug 2021)

stuart little said:


> AH, you may well be correct there mate, me & numbers & it was about 30yrs ago!


Delayed action memory kicking in - twas a 944 but I was ,obviously, misinformed by a fellow mechanic who probably was thinking of a 912. Talking of which a 912 came in for work brakes & non start. Fuel pump relay was the cause of non-start, this relay had a VW part no. on it, so got a price from both VW & Porsche, surprisingly Porsche was £5 less than VW! What's this got to do with woodworking?  . Oh well, back to 'Project Binky'!!!!! I'd like to thank you guys for the link to 'Binky' - I'm now addicted.

Stuart


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## Fergie 307 (25 Aug 2021)

Had a fuel cut off valve go on the Merc. Genuine Mercedes part £200 odd plus vat. But made by Bosch, and from their local agent £150 all in. So who wants to pay 90 quid for a pretty cardboard box with Mercedes Benz printed on it?


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## JobandKnock (25 Aug 2021)

Some Mercedes owners? I bet it'll be the same (but more so?) when people need parts gorvthe badge-engineered Kangoo that M-B sell.


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## stuart little (25 Aug 2021)

Here's another, GM movano pas pump pulley £90 ,Renault master £20 & this was 14 yrs ago!


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## Fergie 307 (25 Aug 2021)

I recall having to do an engine on a Volvo. This was the model they did very briefly that was a badge engineered Daf, I think Volvo called it a 100. The engine was a Renault four pot with wet liners, a la Renault 12 etc. The owner was adamant it was a Volvo engine, " it has Volvo stamped into the cover on top". A set of liners and pistons from Volvo was a horrendous price, Renault slightly less so, or you could buy them from Hepolite who actually made them for Renault for about half the price. Never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people can be of what is actually in their cars. Similarly in those days many manufacturers used Ferodo brake linings, so would sir like the parts in a Ferodo box for £20, or exactly the same parts in a Renault, Fiat etc box for £35?


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## stuart little (25 Aug 2021)

Fergie 307 said:


> I recall having to do an engine on a Volvo. This was the model they did very briefly that was a badge engineered Daf, I think Volvo called it a 100. The engine was a Renault four pot with wet liners, a la Renault 12 etc. The owner was adamant it was a Volvo engine, " it has Volvo stamped into the cover on top". A set of liners and pistons from Volvo was a horrendous price, Renault slightly less so, or you could buy them from Hepolite who actually made them for Renault for about half the price. Never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people can be of what is actually in their cars. Similarly in those days many manufacturers used Ferodo brake linings, so would sir like the parts in a Ferodo box for £20, or exactly the same parts in a Renault, Fiat etc box for £35?


Some Renault parts didn't fit the Volvo version. Here's another, working on a Mitsubishi [don'tt remember model], I spotted a 'Volvo' tag on an a/c pipe. Parts for the Cit./ 'Pug'/ Fiat Sevel van cheaper from Fiat!


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## Bigegg (25 Aug 2021)

There are parts for the lexus, which can be ordered from the Toyota dealers, under a Lexus part number, in a Lexus box, which is half the price of the same thing from lexus


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## jcassidy (26 Aug 2021)

Bigegg said:


> My newer lexus (IS300 Sportcross) will tow 1.5T - but towbars for it are so rare I doubt I'll _ever_ be able to find one.
> (It took me 5 years to get one for the GS)



A man who likes cars as rare as good steak. You've more chance of finding a tow bar for a Lamborghini.


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## jcassidy (26 Aug 2021)

A young lad at work is a BMW fan boy. The turbo on his nearly-new 5-series blew, long story but his own fault really. 

BMW garage quotes €14k to replace everything on the exhaust, from the manifold to the pipe, as it was all damaged! Knowing I worked in a garage as a kid, he mentioned it to me. I wondered, surely if debris damaged the manifold, the cylinders would be trashed?? Doesn't sound right. Referred him to an independent BMW specialist near where I train. 

Of course it turns out everything just needs a deep clean. Couple hundred euro for an exhaust specialist down the country plus a couple grand labour. Less than $3k all in, including a reconditioned turbo and an important life lesson.

Made me feel sorry for all the schmucks who trust their dealer and don't get second opinions.


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## Jonm (26 Aug 2021)

Spin speeds on washing machines. Higher spin speeds are a big selling point. Of course any out of balance load (and there is plenty of that with washing) and the forces on the bearings go up as the square of the speed. Double the rpm and loads are four times higher. So obviously the higher spin speed machines have stronger bearings plus more powerful and stronger motors and that is what you are paying for.

So I looked at a manufacturer which sold similar machines but different spin speeds. Part numbers for replacement drums and motors were the same! I cannot remember which manufacturer it was. Then I tried to find out how much drier the higher spin speed got the clothes, how much longer they would take to dry outside and if tumbling, was the reduced time measurable and would it be reduced in practice and actually reduce costs. I gave up at that point.

I came to the conclusion that basically you were paying extra for a different connection to the motor, extra programmes that would never be used, dubious improvements to the ”dryness” of the clothes and a machine which would wear out quicker.


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## Bigegg (26 Aug 2021)

jcassidy said:


> A man who likes cars as rare as good steak. You've more chance of finding a tow bar for a Lamborghini.



I'm laughing. But I'm also crying inside.


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## Jonm (26 Aug 2021)

stuart little said:


> but although it's a 'car tax' rip-off @ £360/yr. I've no intension of buying anything else


That is to encourage you to be green. Scrap the car and buy a newer, more efficient cleaner car. The fact that making the new car will dump far more CO2 in to the atmosphere than will ever be saved by the more fuel efficient car is immaterial.

It “sounds“ environmentally friendly to tax older, less fuel efficient and polluting cars but the government has not produced any research to demonstrate that it is actually environmentally friendly to scrap a perfectly good old vehicle and replace with new. Perhaps someone on here knows better.

Here is a report but I have not the time to read it.


https://ec.europa.eu/clima/sites/default/files/transport/vehicles/docs/2020_study_main_report_en.pdf


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## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Jonm said:


> Spin speeds on washing machines. Higher spin speeds are a big selling point. Of course any out of balance load (and there is plenty of that with washing) and the forces on the bearings go up as the square of the speed. Double the rpm and loads are four times higher. So obviously the higher spin speed machines have stronger bearings plus more powerful and stronger motors and that is what you are paying for.
> 
> So I looked at a manufacturer which sold similar machines but different spin speeds. Part numbers for replacement drums and motors were the same! I cannot remember which manufacturer it was. Then I tried to find out how much drier the higher spin speed got the clothes, how much longer they would take to dry outside and if tumbling, was the reduced time measurable and would it be reduced in practice and actually reduce costs. I gave up at that point.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that basically you were paying extra for a different connection to the motor, extra programmes that would never be used, dubious improvements to the ”dryness” of the clothes and a machine which would wear out quicker.



Interesting, I assume higher spin speed would be better built to cope, maybe not. That being said, my policy of buy cheap, buy multiple times had worked well for white goods, most last almost as long as their much more expensive counterparts and the cost per year is far far lower overall.


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## stuart little (26 Aug 2021)

Jonm said:


> That is to encourage you to be green. Scrap the car and buy a newer, more efficient cleaner car. The fact that making the new car will dump far more CO2 in to the atmosphere than will ever be saved by the more fuel efficient car is immaterial.
> 
> It “sounds“ environmentally friendly to tax older, less fuel efficient and polluting cars but the government has not produced any research to demonstrate that it is actually environmentally friendly to scrap a perfectly good old vehicle and replace with new. Perhaps someone on here knows better.
> 
> ...


An old 7t diesel truck is cheaper to tax!


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## Terry - Somerset (26 Aug 2021)

Premium products generally sell in much lower quantities than their lower priced mass market equivalents. Applies to white good, cars, electronis etc.

In some cases premium products are genuinely better than the lower priced. Often they are superficially different and just marketed to differentiate between brands and badges.

We know this happens with woodworking machines where lathes, planers, thicknessers, bandsaws etc etc are frequently badge engineered as Axminster, Scheppach, Charnwood, DeWalt, Titan etc etc etc. All that changes are peripheral elements which avoid a complete redesign - colour, fences, labelling, chrome not painted pulleys etc.

All to give create an illusion of particular brand strengths and differentiate one product from another. They often comes from the same factory.

That common parts are used where possible (typically where it is not obvious and don't show) is no surprise. It is much cheaper to manufacture in volume - so why create unique product parts if they are not required.

So motors, bearings, brakes, filters, motors, are likely to be interchangeable. Large expensive components likewise - castings, fabrications, complex machining etc - where separate designs simply add cost often with limited benefit.

Those who take the trouble to understand this can save money - but it is then they who take the risk of a non-compliant part!


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## stuart little (26 Aug 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Premium products generally sell in much lower quantities than their lower priced mass market equivalents. Applies to white good, cars, electronis etc.
> 
> In some cases premium products are genuinely better than the lower priced. Often they are superficially different and just marketed to differentiate between brands and badges.
> 
> ...


Television parts all made in one factory in China. Vehicle cam belts, despite so many brand names, are made by only two manufacturers. Correct me if I'm right!


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## Spectric (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Interesting, I assume higher spin speed would be better built to cope, maybe not.


Take this concept to diesel engines, they used to be built using much heavier components and were lower reving, 0 to 60 in half an hour but would just keep going, I had several cars with the 2.1 Euro diesel that went twice round the clock without missing a beat. Now high reving, built from similar components as a petrol and with performance to match but do not last as always stressed.


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## Terry - Somerset (26 Aug 2021)

Cars - how the short term dominates design and manufacturing decisions.

Car companies sell to the first owner. They select on the basis of initial cost balanced against performance, status and gizmos. The may pay some (but relatively little) attention to trade in values (especially for PCP deals).

The second owner usually after 2-4 years typically apes the first - price, performance, gizmos, status in slightly different proportions. 

Providing the vehicle lasts for the first two owners, 4-7 years, up to 100k, why would a manufacturer add more cost to the original vehicle - they simply lose sales!.

Not green but pretty much inevitable. Similar issue for electric vehicles - the premium the first owner would pay over an ICE needed to be less than their fuel cost saving. This is now changing due to reduced EV costs, legislative pressure and environmental awareness.


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## Spectric (26 Aug 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Providing the vehicle lasts for the first two owners, 4-7 years, up to 100k, why would a manufacturer add more cost to the original vehicle - they simply lose sales!.


Looks a similar concept is being applied to houses, why make them last for decades, I doubt we will see the modern lego house still standing in a 100 years unlike so many around today.


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## Stevekane (26 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> Interesting, I assume higher spin speed would be better built to cope, maybe not. That being said, my policy of buy cheap, buy multiple times had worked well for white goods, most last almost as long as their much more expensive counterparts and the cost per year is far far lower overall.


Im sure this is the right approach for oneself if not the enviroment, we have a very expensive Melie washing machine thats now over 10yrs old, no repairs and no serviceing, but for the past 5 or 6 yrs weve been tied to old technology, newer machines have shorter wash cycles, lower temp programs and perhaps lower energy costs,,so whats the best approach??


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## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Stevekane said:


> Im sure this is the right approach for oneself if not the enviroment, we have a very expensive Melie washing machine thats now over 10yrs old, no repairs and no serviceing, but for the past 5 or 6 yrs weve been tied to old technology, newer machines have shorter wash cycles, lower temp programs and perhaps lower energy costs,,so whats the best approach??



I don't have the luxury of thinking about the environment in most of my purchasing decisions.


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## JobandKnock (26 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> Take this concept to diesel engines, they used to be built using much heavier components and were lower reving, 0 to 60 in half an hour but would just keep going, I had several cars with the 2.1 Euro diesel that went twice round the clock without missing a beat. Now high reving, built from similar components as a petrol and with performance to match but do not last as always stressed.


Sounds like the old Peugeot diesels (pre-common rail). Went almost indefinitely providing you fed them oil, water and diesel - but didn't ever take the head off


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## Terry - Somerset (26 Aug 2021)

> Looks a similar concept is being applied to houses, why make them last for decades, I doubt we will see the modern lego house still standing in a 100 years unlike so many around today.



In the 1980s I first went to Saudi Arabia. I was horrified that in the middle of town they were demolishing a building constructed only a few years previously at great expense.

The conclusion - why build to last when rebuilding is possibly cheaper and quicker than modifying to meet current needs.

This is why Ikea and Primark have been so successful. Rather than build furniture and clothes to last a generation, accept that needs change and build to an appropriate quality.

As a child of the 1950s and 60s I was bought up with "traditional" values - make do and mend, buy quality to lasts a lifetime, fix it when it goes wrong etc. But as our needs change so radically as we age I am not sure this really works - it was just the best solution at the time.


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## Rorschach (26 Aug 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> This is why Ikea and Primark have been so successful. Rather than build furniture and clothes to last a generation, accept that needs change and build to an appropriate quality.



I have Ikea furniture that is lasting very well, just need to take care of it, same goes for Primark clothes, I have some that are more than 10 years old, worn regularly, still good and several years left in them.

I think some of the bad rep that cheap stuff gets is because lots of people don't take care of the items they own, I see it in friends and family sadly, very rough with their stuff and it looks terrible almost as soon as they get it home. Children don't help there either.


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## Jacob (26 Aug 2021)

JobandKnock said:


> Sounds like the old Peugeot diesels (pre-common rail). Went almost indefinitely providing you fed them oil, water and diesel - but didn't ever take the head off


My Peugeot 305 van did about 250k - estimated as the odometer had packed in some years earlier, along with the oil gauge. Unfortunately missed an oil top up and the engine self destructed. 405 estate similar for mileage. My two favourite vehicles ever.


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## Just4Fun (27 Aug 2021)

Rorschach said:


> I have Ikea furniture that is lasting very well, just need to take care of it


12 to 15 years ago Lidl had some barristers bookcases in. Adjustable shelves, "timber"-framed glass doors, and a drawer. Probably a similar quality to Ikea. I bought 12 of them and have been using them ever since.

My experience with those bookcases should be a good test. Not many people buy 12 identical items of furniture so that is testing on a larger scale than most home purchases, and, for flat pack furniture, I have now had them a reasonable time compared to many.

All have been fine except for 1 in which the drawer front came off. Do I conclude that the quality is poor because that drawer failed? Or did I make an error assembling that one, an error I did not make on the other 11? Do I conclude that one drawer failed because I treated it badly but treated the others well? Do I conclude that the quality is good because 11 have had no problems at all? Like most things I could argue the point in different ways to support whatever conclusion (opinion) I want to justify.


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## Fergie 307 (27 Aug 2021)

Jonm said:


> Spin speeds on washing machines. Higher spin speeds are a big selling point. Of course any out of balance load (and there is plenty of that with washing) and the forces on the bearings go up as the square of the speed. Double the rpm and loads are four times higher. So obviously the higher spin speed machines have stronger bearings plus more powerful and stronger motors and that is what you are paying for.
> 
> So I looked at a manufacturer which sold similar machines but different spin speeds. Part numbers for replacement drums and motors were the same! I cannot remember which manufacturer it was. Then I tried to find out how much drier the higher spin speed got the clothes, how much longer they would take to dry outside and if tumbling, was the reduced time measurable and would it be reduced in practice and actually reduce costs. I gave up at that point.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that basically you were paying extra for a different connection to the motor, extra programmes that would never be used, dubious improvements to the ”dryness” of the clothes and a machine which would wear out quicker.


Our Samsung has a system that prevents it from spinning if the load is seriously out of balance, I think a lot of modern machines have this feature. It will rock the drum to and fro to redistribute the load, then try again. Eventually it will give up and the single bath mat, or whatever one of the kids put in there comes out sopping wet as it has refused to spin it.


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## Fergie 307 (27 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> My Peugeot 305 van did about 250k - estimated as the odometer had packed in some years earlier, along with the oil gauge. Unfortunately missed an oil top up and the engine self destructed. 405 estate similar for mileage. My two favourite vehicles ever.


Sold a lot of 309 1.9 diesels to a taxi company many years ago. The owner reckoned to get at least 300k out of them. Had one myself for a long time as a run around then passed on to a relative. It was still going strong at 230k when it got written off in an accident. The interior and bodywork was still remarkably good too.


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## Rorschach (27 Aug 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> 12 to 15 years ago Lidl had some barristers bookcases in. Adjustable shelves, "timber"-framed glass doors, and a drawer. Probably a similar quality to Ikea. I bought 12 of them and have been using them ever since.
> 
> My experience with those bookcases should be a good test. Not many people buy 12 identical items of furniture so that is testing on a larger scale than most home purchases, and, for flat pack furniture, I have now had them a reasonable time compared to many.
> 
> All have been fine except for 1 in which the drawer front came off. Do I conclude that the quality is poor because that drawer failed? Or did I make an error assembling that one, an error I did not make on the other 11? Do I conclude that one drawer failed because I treated it badly but treated the others well? Do I conclude that the quality is good because 11 have had no problems at all? Like most things I could argue the point in different ways to support whatever conclusion (opinion) I want to justify.



If you want something to fail you can be certain that it eventually will, if you are rough enough trying to prove that it was rubbish in the first place.

I have a good example that I think proves my point, well sort of anyway. My sister has some Ikea wardrobes in her bedroom, very pleased with them, very practical (modular system) and reasonable priced. A few years ago she moved house and they now had a spare bedroom that needed furniture. She wanted some more similar wardrobes as she was very happy with hers and even after moving they were still sturdy etc. By chance a friend of hers was moving soon after and was getting rid of some suitable wardrobes in the same type. 
Since I built the first lot I was tasked with reassembling these "new" ones. These wardrobes were actually newer than the ones my sister had by a few years, the condition was really rather poor in comparison, some scratches, scuffs, chips etc. Assembly had been done very roughly, screws overtightened, holes blown out etc. Despite being assembled by someone who has a practical job and excellent tools, they clearly considered it a cheap bit of tat not worthy of care and attention.
As a result I had to make several repairs and adjustments to make everything sturdy and usable again, luckily this is an area I am good at and do often.
It does show though that the way something is treated in both assembly and life can have a big impact on how long it lasts and peoples perception.


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## Bigegg (27 Aug 2021)

jcassidy said:


> A man who likes cars as rare as good steak. You've more chance of finding a tow bar for a Lamborghini.



I got one 

£125 from a breaker who is a member of the sportcross FB group.
Just got a 600 mile round trip to collect it.


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## jcassidy (27 Aug 2021)

Bigegg said:


> I got one
> 
> £125 from a breaker who is a member of the sportcross FB group.
> Just got a 600 mile round trip to collect it.



Well I'm eating my hat.


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## Bigegg (27 Aug 2021)

jcassidy said:


> Well I'm eating my hat.



I'm *at least* as amazed as you are - and certainly more chuffed.


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## Stevekane (27 Aug 2021)

Just4Fun said:


> 12 to 15 years ago Lidl had some barristers bookcases in. Adjustable shelves, "timber"-framed glass doors, and a drawer. Probably a similar quality to Ikea. I bought 12 of them and have been using them ever since.
> 
> My experience with those bookcases should be a good test. Not many people buy 12 identical items of furniture so that is testing on a larger scale than most home purchases, and, for flat pack furniture, I have now had them a reasonable time compared to many.
> 
> All have been fine except for 1 in which the drawer front came off. Do I conclude that the quality is poor because that drawer failed? Or did I make an error assembling that one, an error I did not make on the other 11? Do I conclude that one drawer failed because I treated it badly but treated the others well? Do I conclude that the quality is good because 11 have had no problems at all? Like most things I could argue the point in different ways to support whatever conclusion (opinion) I want to justify.


And a side issue you may not have considered is that these Lidels “Barristers Bookcases” seem to have given you a legal air,,your “summing up” was very Rumpole I thought,,
Steve.


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## Just4Fun (28 Aug 2021)

Stevekane said:


> your “summing up” was very Rumpole I thought


Well I have the figure for it


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