# dovetail jig



## gjhimages (14 Oct 2016)

looking to buy my first dovetail jig for router
my stock is only 6mm thick, for small boxes

will dovetail jigs cut material this thin?

not clear from websites

thanks


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## deema (14 Oct 2016)

Have you tried cutting them by hand? Double up planks fir the tails and gang cut them to speed it up and help with accuracy. With very little practice you can quickly cut them for boxes probably far faster than setting up a jig.


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## Glynne (14 Oct 2016)

Gifkin's jigs go down to 2mm (I think), but despite owning a larger version I still think hand cut are better - unless of course you're on a production line.


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## Jacob (14 Oct 2016)

They are easy to do free hand and look a lot nicer even if they end up a bit irregular. 
Nobody need a DT jig unless they are into mass production sh|te furniture, with unskilled workers. 
For one offs or short runs they'd make the work more difficult, not less.


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## MattRoberts (14 Oct 2016)

The trend jigs won't - they go to 12mm min


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## gjhimages (15 Oct 2016)

I guess I will have a go at hand cutting are their any rules as to width and number of tails or 'if it looks good cut them


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## Jacob (15 Oct 2016)

gjhimages":2mgoi9a0 said:


> I guess I will have a go at hand cutting are their any rules as to width and number of tails or 'if it looks good cut them


They come in all shapes and sizes, there are no rules, except where strength is required they are made more substantial, but for light loads such as drawer sides they can be very light "single kerf" cut.
Have a look at old furniture. Google "old dovetail joints". 
They are very fashionable amongst amateur woodworkers so if you just google "dovetail joints" without the "old" you get a lot of fancy non traditional varieties, which you can ignore if you wish. 
You also get a lot of theories about how they should be done but you can ignore most of these too!
Wikipedia gets it wrong - this quote below is nonsense - if you bother to look at old furniture and measure the angles you'll find they vary from close to 90º ("box" joint) to 45º ish which is a bit too shallow as corners can break off.
_The angle of slope varies according to the wood used. Typically the slope is 1:6 for softwoods and a shallower 1:8 slope for hardwoods. Often a slope of 1:7 is used as a compromise."
_


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## Eric The Viking (15 Oct 2016)

Jacob is bang-on: I often wonder, "How did I get that done so quickly, when I didn't have machine tools?"

The answer is straightforward - there was no setup time nor fiddling around. And I probably wasted a lot less material too.

If you want to splash out, get a nice Japanese rip saw (suitable for dovetails in hardwood). I've come to them late in life and they're wonderful - less effort, beautiful finish, and as accurate as I could possibly manage. There are a few guides for them too, that help keep the saw perpendicular to the work. I haven't tried, but there's one disc-shaped Japanese one that's been around for a long while, so probably works well.

I also got some very cheap s/h 1/4" chisels that I've re-ground to skews, to get into the corners, but even they're a bit of a luxury - I'm sure Jacob will tell you they're not necessary.

And hand tools let you listen to the afternoon play on Radio 4 at the same time - try doing that next to the router table!

Thirty quid would see you well set up, and pretty smug when you make your first really nice joint.

E.


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## John15 (15 Oct 2016)

There are lots of hand cut dovetails on Youtube. The UK ones are mostly very instructive, the American ones less so.

John


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## custard (15 Oct 2016)

There's an inverse relationship between the thickness of the stock and the complexity of hand cutting through dovetails. That's because the most difficult bit is keeping the saw perfectly perpendicular to the workpiece throughout the cut. 6mm thick stock is an absolute doddle. 12mm thick is good practise stock for beginners. 18-24mm thick you need to concentrate. 30mm plus is tricky if you're aiming for flawless, gap free dovetails.


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## gjhimages (15 Oct 2016)

thanks for all the responses
guess i'll have to have a go


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## JonnyW (16 Oct 2016)

Go on, ask which should be cut first - pins or tails. 

I'll get a cuppa. 

Jonny


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## gjhimages (16 Oct 2016)

Go on then which first??


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## Glynne (16 Oct 2016)

As someone needs to stick their head above the parapet, I'll go first.
I cut tails first as I find it easier to mark the pins from the tails rather than the other way around. But like most things, there are pros and cons and you will find differing arguments hence the "go on ask" comment from Jonny. Nowhere near as contentious as sharpening but it can still raise blood pressure in certain quarters.


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## deema (16 Oct 2016)

I also cut the tails first. I place both boards together that will receive the tails. I mark out using pencil. The two boards together help to cut straight across without being on an angle. The greater distance emphasising and out of alignment. If I where starting out I would then scribe the lines on top of the grain with a knife, then on the waste side of the wood use a chisel to flick out to create a 'knife wall' this allows the saw to start in a kerf so your sure it's correctly aligned and then all you have to do is concentrate on is cutting vertically. The trick I feel is to sight down the top of the saw, not looking to one side or the other but absolutely on top of the saw. If you look to one side or the other your body moves and you will not saw straight. (Until muscle memory kicks in) before you start sawing make sure you align the wood so the marks of the tails are on one side of the tail vertical, again this helps a lit with sawing accuracy. You can see a very small variance from vertical, but you can't see off vertical if your cutting off vertical to compensate for the clamping of the wood. Cut all tails in one side, adjust the wood and cut the other.

Now mark the pins with a knife. Again create a knife wall, this time on both the line you have scribed from the tails and also along the edge (grain) of the wood. Now cut the pins. The knife walls will help to keep the saw aligned, and cutting vertically really helps.

I'm fairly sure that if you follow this method you will get dovetails that fit straight from the saw, without any adjustment necessary of the walls of the pins / tails.

If you cut the pins first, you can't gang cut the tails, which is more time consuming


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2016)

Tails first but I tend to think of it as pins and pin-holes (between the "tails") and so it's pin holes first. 
From looking at old stuff I'm pretty sure that's how it was done traditionally, in pairs as deema describes; usually the two sides of a drawer.


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## woodbrains (16 Oct 2016)

Hello,

Pins first, trust me, it is best. 

1, see Custard's comments above, the thicker the stock the harder it becomes, so gang cutting is just doubling the thickness of your stock, doh! The time saving is negligible anyway, it takes longer to cut through double the thickness (more strokes) cutting the waste and paring to the baseline has to be done for each dovetail just the same.

2, marking the tails through the larger gaps in the pin board is vastly easier, especially with London pattern dovetails (single entry) try getting a knife which has a blade thicker than a saw blade into a single saw kerf dovetail. Japanese sawn tails -forget it!

3, there is more chance of a sawing error in the tail sockets, so done first can be corrected when marking the tails. Cut the tails first and any sawing error in the sockets are for keeps.

4 it is easier to mark and see the mark in side grain than end grain. A knife mark in end grain oak, say, needs a lot of pressure to see it. Pins can be marked in pencil, if cut first and then knifed through to the tails.

5, some dovetails cannot be cut tails first, such as secret mitred or double lapped ones, so why not have a single, universal method?

Of course dovetails can and are cut the other way around successfully by many craftsmen, so perhaps you just have to try both and find out for yourself. But I used to cut tails first and after I changed to pins first I won't go back, if you paid me. 

Mike.


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## Jacob (16 Oct 2016)

woodbrains":3cc3fy5v said:


> Hello,
> 
> Pins first, trust me, it is best.
> 
> 1, see Custard's comments above, the thicker the stock the harder it becomes, so gang cutting is just doubling the thickness of your stock, doh! The time saving is negligible anyway, it takes longer to cut through double the thickness (more strokes) cutting the waste and paring to the baseline has to be done for each dovetail just the same.......


I've looked at a lot of old DTs - almost entirely drawers sides, and they all look to be cut pin holes first and in pairs. Never more than two at a time..
The thin single kerf ones are most common because they are easiest and quickest - only one line to mark up (or guess), not two.


> try getting a knife which has a blade thicker than a saw blade into a single saw kerf dovetail. Japanese sawn tails -forget it!


If you can't mark through them you are obviously using the wrong kit - so yes, forget it! :lol: 
Really not a problem at all; a scribe pin is handy - I use an old dart (without the feathers), or a square ended thin craft knife if they are really fine - you stab it in chisel fashion - "cutting" a line knife fashion is more difficult.


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## Chip shop (16 Oct 2016)

Jacob":lt2hqi2d said:


> woodbrains":lt2hqi2d said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...




The Veritas Dart...amazing commercial opportunity.  

I'm a tails first man myself, and, obviously, I'm right. (hammer)


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## JonnyW (17 Oct 2016)

Sorry I was being mischievous with my comment.

So I may as well man-up and state that I'm a tails first kinda guy. Coz that's the way I was taught when I did my advanced craft many moons ago (along with some useless joints I've never needed to do), and am so brainwashed I'm yet to try pin(holes) first. 

Does anyone rabbet their boards before cutting the tails? I remember reading a Chris Schwarz article on pins or tails first, and he mentioned rabbeting the tails board. I didn't quite understand what he meant or what was the advantage - something to do with making transferring the marks for the pin holes easier. 

Jonny


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## Jacob (17 Oct 2016)

Pin(holes) first is the same as tails first. 
I suppose if you had a rebate the drawer side would fit tight against the drawer front whilst marking through for the pins , but I've never seen this in old work so guess it's just another amateur woodwork tip. The hacks have to keep coming up with new tricks!


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## JonnyW (17 Oct 2016)

Jacob, you're right there. But isn't it fun reading in every new expensive issue, how they've successfully reinvented the wheel?.

Jonny


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## AndyT (17 Oct 2016)

Lurching back to the original suggestion about a jig to use on thin stock...

Nowadays, like lots of others who have already replied, I like to cut dovetails the quiet way. But a while back (fifteen years or more) I bought a little 1/4" Bosch router and explored ways of using it. 

I made a few little boxes like this, from 9mm ash, and did the dovetails using the router. 







I made this very simple jig. I've looked back at a book I had at the time, and I think it was probably intended as a very economical copy of one of the Keller jigs. It's designed to be used with a hand held router, dovetail cutter, and a guide bush. 











You clamp the workpieces vertically against the cross-bar, with a bit of sacrificial wood in between. The slots are long enough to hold four pieces at a time (the four sides of a box). With the cutter projection set to suit the thickness of the wood, follow the slots to cut out the tails on the ends of the boards. At the time I used this jig, I would have used a Workmate for the clamping but a proper vice would do if it was wide enough.

That produces a set of finished tails. Mark the pins from these as if making by hand. Saw the sides of the pins, inside the waste, by hand or by bandsaw.

Then clamp a pair of boards back to back so the narrow sides of the waste are together. You don't need a jig for this. A workmate is suitable as it provides extra horizontal surfaces which help make the base of the router stable. Using a small straight cutter, remove most of the waste. These cuts are made to full depth. You can go up near the sawcut, leaving a wisp of wood to cut off with a small knife. Or with practice, you can guide the cutter into the kerf but stay the right side of it, especially if your saw cuts are not made with an extra-fine dovetail saw but with something cheaper or the bandsaw. This sounds harder than it is but you soon get used to keeping the router cutter inside the waste. 

The result should be some decently-fitting dovetails. I only ever made the one jig, but they are quick and easy, so you could make one to suit the scale of your boxes. You can of course vary the spacing, though you can't go much thinner than these because of the diameter of the router cutter.


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## woodbrains (17 Oct 2016)

Hello,

A couple of observations; running a slight rebate on on board gives a positive location for setting the other board against when transferring marks. It was not (widely) done on old work because they did not have the speed and accuracy of a router table to do so. It is a useful method for accuracy (for those who want to) so why should we not? It is ludicrous to argue that because it was not seen on old work that we should not, if we feel the need, when the truth is, it wasn't done becuse it couldn't have been. There is such a thing as progress! Of course if you don't want to, then don't, we have a choice. 

The origin of this sort of rebate predated Chris Schwartz 'discovery' anyway. I don't know exactly who did it first and how long ago, but I tried it for curiosity about 15 years ago from something I read (not Schwartz). I suspect these things were done longer ago than any one cares to think. I would bet someone tied it with a knife and rebate plane, at some point in the distant past. You could not tell by looking at old stuff, anyway, you would have to break every piece apart to see. Whilst I agree it was not normally done, no one can say it was never done.

Tage Fridd was an advocate of pins first dovetaiing. He was not known for taking any prisoners when it came down to speed of working, so I doubt any time advantage of doing tails first is worth commenting on. He learned is craft longer ago than my one on these forums, for sure.

Mike.


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## Jacob (17 Oct 2016)

woodbrains":38av6ojt said:


> ...It is ludicrous to argue that because it was not seen on old work that we should not, if we feel the need, when the truth is, it wasn't done becuse it couldn't have been.


It wasn't done because it isn't necessary.


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## Glynne (18 Oct 2016)

> Nowhere near as contentious as sharpening but it can still raise blood pressure in certain quarters.


I did warn you! As with sharpening threads, a lot of sensible and differing views and then........the J bomb.


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## woodbrains (18 Oct 2016)

Jacob":ke862xxo said:


> woodbrains":ke862xxo said:
> 
> 
> > ...It is ludicrous to argue that because it was not seen on old work that we should not, if we feel the need, when the truth is, it wasn't done becuse it couldn't have been.
> ...



Hello,

I wonder if, because women didn't do woodwork back then, they shouldn't now, as everything was done then as it should and we should only do the same? Or perhaps some are more enlightened! We move on, we advance we get better. For example, just because antique furniture shows over cuts at the baseline of dovetails, does it mean we should over cut ours? An exhibition jewellery box with over cut, randomly spaced joints, no blooming way. So what do we do, dogmatically stick to old ways and pretend that their less than perfect joinery is as good it can be? I've some Victorian furniture which is quite high end stuff. It is very good indeed, but sadly the dovetailed drawers, not crudely done by any means, simply would not fly these days. It is just the way it is. So if running a slight rebate gives the step up in accuracy we need, then we should do it. If we don't have to, (as a rule, I don't) then all well and good. I'll tell you where I might do it, a 24 inch deep cabinet with multiple carcase dovetails that show. If I felt I would gain a better register when transferring the 17 or so pins to the tailboard, hell yes I'd spend a minute running a 1mm deep rebate on the tailboard with a router. 

Mike.


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## Jacob (18 Oct 2016)

woodbrains":3ab5dgsy said:


> ....just because antique furniture shows over cuts at the baseline of dovetails, does it mean we should over cut ours? An exhibition jewellery box with over cut, randomly spaced joints, no blooming way. .....


Cheap work is over-cut a lot - cleans out the corners in one move - even over-cuts on the sockets of blind DTs helps to some extent. 
With top quality work the over-cut will be so close you would hardly notice but they'll be there _just_ touching the line. Basically because it'd be madness _not_ to over-cut otherwise you would have to fiddle about messily cleaning out the corners - you might even talk yourself into buying pairs of opposite skewed chisels! :lol: 

I've got another theory for which I've found no evidence except that it works very well, as follows:
The single kerf DTs common on drawer sides are easiest cut if you do 3 cuts, not the usual two plus coping saw. You'd do a perpendicular cut down the centre of the DT pin hole, probably freehand with no marking or measuring and with a tenon saw slightly fatter than the DT saw. Then the two side cuts would be done by dropping the DT saw into the top of the first kerf, over-cutting as necessary. 
Then the waste can be removed without a coping saw but just with a fine chisel - as the first kerf has already taken out some waste and cut it in half, the rest drops out easily. Try it. I was really pleased with myself when I discovered this little wangle!


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## woodbrains (18 Oct 2016)

Hello,

Well done Jacob, you have innovated a method of making a relief cut down the centre of the waste, which, unless I'm very mistaken, was never taught in wood working school by the old guys. If it went done by them, why don't you say that is unnecessary? 

Happily, I have been making just that perpendicular relief cut when I dovetail for many years. 

Incidentally, my Victorian chest is not cheap work- mahogany case, carved mirror surround and drawers with delicate sides and slips, flame mahogany drawer fronts, 9 of the 13 drawers have nice locks fitted. It would have cost a bomb, yet there are over cuts on the dovetails. Not done for any reason other than speed of production, but absolutely would not fly in a piece now

Mike.


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## AndyT (18 Oct 2016)

Please guys, spare a thought for the OP. He's a new member of the forum, probably wondering why his question - which is specifically about jigs - has provoked such a reaction.
If you want to discuss dovetails in general, it's easy to start a new thread to do so, but meanwhile, does anyone have anything to add about the use of jigs in thin stock?


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## deema (18 Oct 2016)

Cutting a rebate for a Dovetail is very simple and quick with hand tools, you don't need a router. The rebate 'trick' is I understand not to aid marking out, but to hide any issues with the base line. As such, any cabinet maker worth their salt would rather avoid the small extra effort and just make dovetails that fit. 

If however you are starting out, I would advise on your first pieces that may be on display....usually for the loved one.....that a rebate is used. The inside of the draw is what is seen, and any small gaps in the base line will be visible. A rebate will hide any billy do's!

To dispel a myth, there are no more saw strokes to cut through 1" thick stuff than there are to cut 1/4" thick stuff with the same saw assuming that the gullets of the saw are not overloaded with the spoil. If you use a Dovetail saw with c14tpi you will be fine to gang cut anything your looking to do for cabinet work down to say 1/4". (I.e. Two piece 1/8" or 3mm thick) If you use a saw with a 20 or more TPI, the thickness of the stuff becomes important, not because of the effort involved / number of stokes but because once the gullets become full the saw will not cut straight and will wander.

In my experience people find cutting stuff hard work because they are using a saw with too many teeth for the thickness of the material. The gullets become full and the saw stops cutting and starts to wanders. You make less progress with each stoke of the saw, tend to apply downward oressure to compensate and become frustrated as the saw wanders off line. Most people think it's because the saw is dull, this may be the case, but in most it's because the saw has too many teeth per inch


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## woodbrains (18 Oct 2016)

Hello,

Sorry, but since the OP seems to have decided to cut dovetails with chisels and saw etc, some tips on doing that did not seem out of order. I didn't mean to divert the thread, apologies. 

In my experience, there are not many jigs that do small dovetails in thin stock that actually look reasonable. Gifkins jig was specifically designed for small boxes and looks to be the best, but I don't own one. I do have a Leigh jig which will do thinish stock, but the angle of the dovetail bit gets steeper the smaller you go and IMO look silly when the angle gets too steep. Both these systems are expensive, too.

I suggest the OP should try hand cutting them in the small scale he wants to do. However, it is not impossible to 'jig' sawn dovetails. He might like to find Robert Ingham's book, cutting edge cabinetmaking. There is some useful info on dovetailing for small scale work in that, he might find interesting.

Mike.


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## Jacob (19 Oct 2016)

woodbrains":14o7ayuz said:


> ...
> Happily, I have been making just that perpendicular relief cut when I dovetail for many years. ....


It's slightly more than a "relief" cut. 
One perpendicular cut for a single kerf DT, or two cuts defining a wider pin hole, then start the saw in the kerf for the angled sides. Works well with a wider pinhole as the waste is very easy to remove. Much easier than fiddling about with a coping saw. Coping saw is a mistake.


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## gjhimages (19 Oct 2016)

Thanks to everyone for all the interesting replies, I believe the way forward is to cut by 
hand. I have been looking at Paul Sellers website blog and YouTube 
Very interesting and thought provoking


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