# A new design for a backsaw



## Pekka Huhta (22 Mar 2011)

I have wanted to build a new backsaw for a long time. A few years ago I was in a particularly boring meeting and started sketching a semi-modern saw handle which would have the same ergonomics as the old beautiful saw handles but would still look streamlined and modern. 

Well, the sketch kept on haunting me untill I just had to start building it. 

That's the progress today: 



 



The handle has very similar curves as the back saws of Klaus & Pedder, which I like a lot. On the other hand it lacks all the ornamental features of the old back saws. I like them as well, but... The world is full of back saws and they all have quite similar curves, cutouts and other ornaments in the handles. I could have copied them all, but I just had to create something new. 

Also, the spine extens all the way to the end of the handle. Originally I thought it would strenghten the handle on the narrowest spot, as karelian birch is a bit brittle. In the end the handle got quite thick on that spot so extra strength was not needed any more. Maybe it can be also considered a visual feature saying "I have just wasted a LOT of material to build something to catch your eye"  

But... I am not fully satisfied about the design yet. The front part around the sawblade looks a little too big and heavy and there is something in the overall profile which bothers me, but I just can't put my finger on the fault. 

Before I finalise the shape, I would appreciate all comments about the design. It looks quite good, but there's something I'm not happy with...

Pekka


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## jimi43 (22 Mar 2011)

Hi Pekka

That is a very beautiful design and the karelian birch is absolutely stunning! That is TWICE today I have found another wood to explore...but this one is without doubt the most gorgeous....where can I get some!?

Regarding your design...it is quite beautiful too.....and I like it from the left to almost the right but the bottom right like an axe head is not fine enough as you suggested too.

I think you need to break up the line of the radius with an opposing curve to give two further horns at the blade side...the top one being predominant and the bottom...a smaller echo of the top.

Other than that...simply beautiful!

I have just had another idea which would look nice but may not be comfortable and that would be to put some straight scallops in the grip...following the diagonal...rather like the drainage grooves on a sink draining board.....what do you think? You could even insert a dark wood glued into the scallops if the grip was uncomfortable....so you would get darker slashes...a sign of Art Deco modernism...

Lovely stuff mate...I will watch this one with interest!

Jim


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## Pekka Huhta (23 Mar 2011)

Karelian birch can be found on many wood suppliers as masur birch, "masur birch" just being the Swedish word for the stuff. It grows mainly in Finland, Sweden, and in western parts of Russia. Although they claim that the cause for the grain being so interlocked would be a reaction to an insect gnawing the tree, that's not the case, it's purely genetical. You can plant genetical karelian birches anywhere and get the pattern, and you can plant any amount of regular birches among the karelian birches without getting the supposed "infection" to the trees. 

The grain is very interlocked, even to the level that there is no distinguishable grain orientation at all. If you cut a rectangular block from the wood, you can't tell afterwards which way it was in the tree, so it resembles some kind of burl. I once used the phrase that masur birch is a bit like birdseye maple who went out for a few drinks and ended up having fun with a dish of spaghetti  


I think that the design would be improved pretty much if I still take about 1-2 mm off from all the surfaces. It looks too plump and rounded, I think that the shape should be more slim. Now it looks like a biohazard sign on horrmones. 

I had thought that I should carve a slightly hollow section for the index finger on the side of the handle, but I'm still a bit hesitant to do thet as it would also interfere with the upper saw screw as well. I actually like the axe-shaped part of the handle, but I think that it is the part that needs most attention on the design. It's a pity to lose that shape: It looks a bit like a firemans axe and that could be a brilliant trade mark for your saw: "FireAx - set your dovetails on fire" :wink: 

I have to take a look at the scallop idea, that sounded cool. I don't usually "decorate2 my designs that way, but it could take your eye away from the too ...voluptuous lines of the handle. 

Pekka


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## dh7892 (23 Mar 2011)

The wood looks very nice indeed. I'm going to Finland for a holiday in the summer, perhaps I can find some to sneak into my luggage on the way back!

I like the design too.


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## pedder (23 Mar 2011)

Hi Pekka, 

as I told you before, I like the upper part of the handle much. Good Suomi design! 

I think the lower part shuold be reviewed. I would add a dolphin pattern, because now it looks a little bit like the veritas saw. And the part, where the small finger (pinky?) touches the would can be thinner. Becaus the small finger is not that long.

Another way would be, to follow the axe theme to the end and cut off most of the lower horns and make some finger beadings like te ones on rob cosman's saws.

Cheers 
Pedder


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## Pekka Huhta (23 Mar 2011)

I should scan the original design, that was far more streamlined. It's not that I would not have faith in the design, I just know there is something more in it which I haven't found out yet. 

I have tried to turn the whole world around to avoid the dolphin pattern on the saw. I _know_ it would improve the looks tremendously, but there's something in it that's against the whole concept of that saw. In the beginning it was just an idea of "form follows function", and the dolphin tail on the end of the handle is not any more functional than the all the ornaments on the top of the traditonal saw. 

After I drew the dovetail pattern in the handle I really think I must go that way. It really has always appealled my visual eye, and it also gives amazing amounts of air and lightness in the design. In the end I must admit that there is a function of that dolphin tail after all, although the "function" is only visual :wink: 

Don't get me wrong: I love the traditional handles, and have no aversion against the traditional handle design. Why I started to design this one was that I did not understand the reason why all manufacturers have used almost an identical handle pattern for 200 years. I wanted to build a good hand saw without any of the features I did not understand. 

I think that the people at Veritas had a bit similar brainstorm going on when they designed their back saw. I wonder wether they would accept me in the team 

Pekka


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (24 Mar 2011)

Hi Pekka

I really like the concept. I also agree that there is "something" missing. I think that this is "lightness" - the handle is too heavy looking and the blade is too square ... particularly when you are trying to use curves.

So, lighten the brass, and lighten the handle. Add curves. Remove the unnecessary material. 

There is no reason that the handle should be symmetrical. In fact I have added an assymetry to the lower end....







Just an idea to build on or discard. (This is fun!)

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Pekka Huhta (24 Mar 2011)

Darn, I was about to continue with the saw today, but I had to build a bookshelf to a lovely young lady, so this one had to wait. 

I agree that the blade is too square. In fact, it is 2 mm higher at the toe than at heel. The blade itself is pretty clode to square, but as I hand sawed the groove to the spine it's a bit deeper at the back. It was easier to get a hold of that end, so the groove got deeper. I think I'll take maybe 5 mm off from the whole blade as it is a bit high, and maybe tilting it a bit narrower at the toe would take off some weight. It's not the same as cutting off some of the back, but then again I think that the saw should have some physical weight at the front end. 

I never thought that I could cut so much off from the "axe head", but after all it looks pretty nice that small as well. 

Well, tomorrow I have time to finish it. A few rasps, a few hours, a few beer. That should do it  

Pekka


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## jimi43 (24 Mar 2011)

I like Pedder's mod but I would still put an "axe" bevel at the remaining leading wood edge.

I think that this could become your signature.

Jim


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## pedder (24 Mar 2011)

Hi Pekka,

this is my take:






Pleas tell me how you made the spine. hand sawed?????

Cheers
Pedder


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## Pekka Huhta (25 Mar 2011)

pedder":1w6wk6mz said:


> Hi Pekka,
> 
> this is my take:



Oi! Hands off from those horns  I think that the long horns on the handle are something that I can't afford to lose, although I think I will go to the dolphin pattern handle anyway. But the one single feature I have liked your saws the most are the long horns, it was one of the key features which I built the whole saw around. 

Another thing I noted is that the upper horn is too rounded, creating that "biohazard sign" look. I'll have to straighten that up a bit. 


Sawing the spine was easy. I used the same method that Klaus uses to saw the slots for the blades in the handle: I just clamped a thin japanese cross-cut ryoba blade to a piece of hardboard with suiitable spacer blocks. The cross-cut blade is very good in sawing the groove in brass, I could get nice, long curly shavings from the brass. It took less than an hour to saw the slot about 8-10 mm deep to the spine. I know that also a shallower saw cut would have been enough, but as there have been questions of "which is better, sawed back or bent from brass sheet", this one has the features of both. 


And Jimi, I love the "axe bevel" at the handle, and will definitely keep it there. 

If I think it over, there is a tiny bit of something similar in an axe handle I bilt some years ago. http://www.sihistin.fi/en/woodwork/axe.html

Pekka


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## pedder (25 Mar 2011)

Hi Pekka, 

thank you for the spine saw instructions. Never thought one can saw brass with a japanes bade. Don't try that with you new saw.  Wouldn't a rip cut have benn better? all my metal saws are rip cut. That is a lot of brass for only one saw. But technically perfect. The next step wuold be to make it licke a knife with grip scales only. 

The long horns are a feature Klaus like the most. I don't need any lower horns, because my hands are a bit large. So when I test cut a saw for a customer with musicans hands my pinky is below the lower horn.

Cheers
Pedder


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## Pekka Huhta (25 Mar 2011)

Ah, sorry: of course it was a rip cut blade, not cross cut. 

In fact it was most efficient to saw it with only a few teeth, not the whole blade. That way you could in fact carve thick shavings out of the brass.

Good lubrication is essential, I applied some candle wax to the blade every few minutes. It increased the cutting speed a lot.

Pekka


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## Pekka Huhta (25 Mar 2011)

Ok, next try:



 

Top of the handle was smoothed out about 3 mm, so that the back is more streamlined. That made the biggest diference. The heel had a much gentler treatment, there was only a millimeter or two coming off from that surface. 

I almost regret that I cut a bit too much off from the "axe": 4 mm from the bottom and 2 mm from the front end. Some kind of showoff-factor was cut off. It's not bad, just less showy. I had no time or energy for the back, but I think I just make a neat ending at the handle and that's it. 

It always surprises me how small changes make so huge difference. Even the heel of the handle does not look too bulky any more, even without the dolphin pattern (at least to my eyes)

What do you think? 

Pekka


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## Pekka Huhta (5 Apr 2011)

I got it almost ready, only sharpening of the teeth is still a pending issue. I just received my old saw with a new 14 TPI toothing from Pedder, and I'm very tempted to re-tooth this one to 14 TPI instead of 18. Frankly, I don't think I can get a 18 tpi saw set and sharpened to my liking with these eyes :roll: :wink: 

I could not resist adding a few decorations to the picture: a set of small E.A.Berg butt chisels I restored and the marking set I built some time ago. It looks like I'm doing some dovetailing in the near future (hammer) 

Pekka


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## pedder (6 Apr 2011)

Wow Pekka, she came out really nice!

Cheers Pedder


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## Klaus Kretschmar (6 Apr 2011)

Hi Pekka,

Stunning! You did a great job on this saw. The spine is very special and nicely done. Don´t know if the long inlayed spine is necessary to avoid a handle breakage but it looks nice and worthy. And .. if my eyes don´t tease me .. it seems to me that you filed the spine ovally, didn´t you :mrgreen: In any case you created a saw that isn´t only unique but beautiful and crafted good, congrats!

BTW, those other karelian birch handeled tools look fantastic! The timber is intriguing for sure.

Klaus


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## Trizza (6 Apr 2011)

Beautiful work Pekka! Tosi hyvin tehty


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## Pekka Huhta (6 Apr 2011)

Klaus Kretschmar":3ln65vzj said:


> Stunning! You did a great job on this saw. The spine is very special and nicely done. Don´t know if the long inlayed spine is necessary to avoid a handle breakage but it looks nice and worthy. And .. if my eyes don´t tease me .. it seems to me that you filed the spine ovally, didn´t you :mrgreen: In any case you created a saw that isn´t only unique but beautiful and crafted good, congrats!



Thanks! The back is oval: that was the feature that I fell in love with your saws. And building one with the same idea was one of the main drivers to even start building this saw. 

Continuing the spine all the way back and in fact _through _the whole handle was my original idea. I thought that I would split the whole handle and the back of the brass handle would rest against your palm. Then again, that kind of a design would have been tremendously difficult to shape (shaping brass and wood to the same shape) and I thought that the cold brass against your hand would have been a bit awkward. For that reason I just left the upper part of the spine extension to place. 

I'm slowly building a set of tools for myself. There is an infill project going on and a few other ideas, so I would slowly replace the factory made tools with my own designs in my tool cabinet. That'll take years, but I'm not in a hurry.

Karelian birch is beautiful wood. It is somewhat of a cliche over here being one of the few "exotic" woods growing here. But used sparingly it is quite a nice wood. For this saw I found a piece where a branch had grown a perfect shape and grain orientation for the handle. It looks pretty good in the finished handle as well. 

But can anyone tell me why the saw screws are always on the right side of the handle? Is there any technical reason for it?

Pekka


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## Klaus Kretschmar (6 Apr 2011)

Pekka Huhta":1arstbb0 said:


> But can anyone tell me why the saw screws are always on the right side of the handle? Is there any technical reason for it?
> 
> Pekka



Pekka,

I don´t think that there is a technical reason. The screw doesn´t know the direction it is mounted :mrgreen: It´s a visual thing that the saw has one "show side". This will be usually the left side since that is the side you will see while sawing if you use the saw right handed. 

Left handed sawyers happen often to request a reversed screw direction and the etching at the right side of the saw. They want to see the show side also while sawing.

How long did it take to file the spine ovally? I find it rather time consuming ...

Klaus


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## Pekka Huhta (8 Apr 2011)

Filing the spine was pretty easy, at least compared to the fact that I started with a 8x50 mm brass bar and shaping _that_ to a spine took some time to start with 







As you can see I cheated a bit and sawed it with a jigsaw. :wink: 

What caused more problems was the transition from oval to square. I could not decide the handle angle and there was a problem getting the transition to the correct place and angle. But when I got that sorted out I did some more cheating and took an angle grinder to rough shape the oval. Then it was time for some filing with a rough mill file. Some polishing with a handheld power grinder (abt 16 000 rpm), still some further filing and some polising with a buffing wheel. 

After I got the back shinning, I took several grades of wet-n-dry paper and dulled the surface. I also added a sulphur mixture to patinate the brass and then polished it a tiny bit with steel wool. I love old tools, so I wanted this to start as an "old tool" instead of a shiny, new one :wink:






Pekka


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (8 Apr 2011)

Hi Pekka

The saw is great. I like _everything_ except the screws. They appear to bulge and affect the streamlined look you have been after. I would remove them, flatten their domed faces, and then reinstall. 

What do they look like from the other side?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Pekka Huhta (8 Apr 2011)

You are right Derek, they are almost as awful on both sides. I have a set of larger saw screws (for a handsaw), I could maybe turn new ones from them.

I don't particularly like the screws either, so that could be a good idea. I may have to fill the gaps under the screws with a drop of epoxy, but that would definitely be worth trying...

Something to do tonight (hammer)  

Pekka


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## Pekka Huhta (9 Apr 2011)

Derek, you were right about it: the screws still look a bit too large for the saw, but the look is far more streamlined now. 

I "turned" the extra large screws to correct size by chucking them on my drill and filing them against the direction of rotation. They were a bit thicker than the oriinals, but I think they fit the saw quite nicely.

Pekka


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## pedder (28 Feb 2016)

Hi woodworker, 

I post my entry here, becaus it fits and this thread was a big inspiration. 
On the german forum we've talked about making a new design for saw handle. 
Modern without all these little curves an hooks and pins. 

This is my last try and I am so happy with it, I have to share it with you. 





















This design is inspirated by a lot of saw handles, I've seen in my live, but the one from Pekka and one of Stewies designs (Can't find it at the moment.) are heavily viewable. 

More pictures on the blog http://two-lawyers-toolworks.blogspot.de/2016/02/modern-mk-ii.html 

Cheers 
Pedder


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (28 Feb 2016)

Hi Pedder

Interesting saw.

Are you posting for comment, or is this a finished design?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## pedder (28 Feb 2016)

Hi Derek,

Thanks! 

I don't understand your question. Comments esp. critics are allways welcome, 
even though, I'm pretty pleased with this design.

Cheers 
Pedder


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## Pekka Huhta (2 Mar 2016)

Lovely saw, I especially like the top part and the transition in the top forward section of the saw. And the horns of the handle are as beautiful as always. 

It's interesting to see how the designs evolve: I had your saws as the benchmark for mine when I started building my saw and now this saw is again "third evolution". In a funny way you are in fact taking inspiration from your own saws, just filtered and modernized by me in the middle  



pedder":pmuje8mb said:


> Hi Derek,
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...



I think that Derek referred to the fact that I posted my original saw as unfinished product for comments and suggestions for improvement. 

Only thing I would change would be the front of the handle, and I am not sure how. It looks quite nice from some angles, but somehow there could be a bit more defined form and mass in it. Now it looks slightly "molten" or un-defined from some angles. Probably feels great in your hand anyway. 

Brilliant saw!

Pekka


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Mar 2016)

Pedder - I hope you meant it was your latest try, not your last try.


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## mikefab (2 Mar 2016)

phil.p":2hz1ni80 said:


> Pedder - I hope you meant it was your latest try, not your last try.


Pedant.


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## pedder (2 Mar 2016)

phil.p":379kmukt said:


> Pedder - I hope you meant it was your latest try, not your last try.



Hi Phil, 

thank you for that correction. It might have cause the question wether or not I'd like to hear critics.
It is my youngest try and sure not my last.

Cheers 
Pedder

English was the soft spot in school.
So thanks for any cost free extra tution.


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## Phil Pascoe (2 Mar 2016)

mikefab":27ppv1au said:


> phil.p":27ppv1au said:
> 
> 
> > Pedder - I hope you meant it was your latest try, not your last try.
> ...


Not at all, Mike. Totally different meaning.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Mar 2016)

I was not sure if Pedder sought critique, and so hesitated to say anything. I emailed him to find out what he wanted, and he said to write my thoughts. 

I still hesitate to comment since design is so subjective and, as they say, everyone is an expert. My gut feeling is that Pedder has the beginnings of a great design, but there are a few factors I would do differently ... however that does not make the design better, only different. 

Pedder, as it stands, the saw handle has three separate parts, and these do not integrate to my eye. There is the top horn, the lower horn, and the "neck" (link to the blade). I absolutely love the top horn, and I like the concept of the neck - however it is too long. The "stretch" is graceful but it disconnects from the saw back and plate, and I also wonder how this would affect feedback when sawing. The lower horn is the weak area. It reminds me of a spoon (more bulbous than graceful). It is different from the top horn. The last area is just one of preference, and this is the projection at the rear of the handle. I never make mine as pronounced as you make yours.

So, shortening the neck and changing the lower horn (very roughly done on a very basic drawing program) ...






Now you can critique my critique 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## pedder (2 Mar 2016)

Pekka Huhta":19yp8jws said:


> Only thing I would change would be the front of the handle, and I am not sure how. It looks quite nice from some angles, but somehow there could be a bit more defined form and mass in it. Now it looks slightly "molten" or un-defined from some angles. Probably feels great in your hand anyway.
> 
> Brilliant saw!
> 
> Pekka



Hi Pekka,

first of all many thanks for sharing the original design with us. The step from your design to me was short. Since this thread (and that it the reason, I'm posting here) I thought about using your design and change it top my wishes. (the lower part) then Stwie came up with the sinus curve (sine wave) at the lower horns. So I'm more a design composer than a designer.

I think your critic refer to the lower front horn? On my first try the front horn was longer:














But it was disturbing. But I'll take you tipp on the next saw.

Cheers 
Pedder


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## pedder (2 Mar 2016)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I
> 
> So, shortening the neck and changing the lower horn (very roughly done on a very basic drawing program) ...




Hi Derek, that is a nicve saw, too and your and Pekkas point to the lower front horn will be obyed. If I'd shorten the neck, my index finger would overlap the cheek. I wouldn't want that. And the buckle I love. 

But over all your critics make the saw more mainstream. So maybe I will take some more oft it. But not the neck and the whole buckle. :lol: 

Cheers
Pedder


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## pedder (2 Mar 2016)

pedder":2fvtzv5q said:


> If I'd shorten the neck, my index finger would overlap the cheek. I wouldn't want that. And the buckle I love.



Hi Derek, I can't shorten it. It is already too short. 





Cheers 
Pedder


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (2 Mar 2016)

Hi Pedder

That helps. The photo offers a fresh perspective. I like the long neck better now that I can see it works. It adds a gracefulness to the lines of the saw. Don't change this aspect. I wish I could add it back into my reconstruction that I posted. The combination could be a killer.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Harbo (3 Mar 2016)

Being a bit of a Traditionalist, I was having reservations about the look but having seen the saw in action I now think it's great.
Another 30yrs and that will be a Traditional style. 


Rod


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## Klaus Kretschmar (3 Mar 2016)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


>




Hi Derek,

the length of the neck shouldn't be changed. Pedder showed it already. In fact the handle isn't longer than our "traditional ones at all. Here's a comparison to our Carcass saw handle:






The main reason that this modern styled handle loooks to be longer is caused by the fact, that the blade is positioned a bit more forward than it is on our other saws.

Aside of this your design sketch is inspiring. Specifically the change of the bottom horn is very appealing to my eye. It looks very harmonically and matches the overall handle design very well. 

Klaus


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