# Methods for cutting tenon shoulders



## PaulO (1 Feb 2007)

What techniques do people prefer for cutting to a tenon shoulder line?

1) Approximate cutting with a bandsaw / tenon saw first followed by
a) Paring to a scribed line with a chisel? If so, do you aim for a convex shoulder (convex towards the tenon)?
b) Trimming to the scribed line with a shoulder plane? If so, how do you avoid break out?

2) Go straight for the scribed line with a bandsaw / tenon saw / table saw?

3) Mark the line with a 3B pencil then aim with an axe?

Any other suggestions?

I think I would go with 1a, but I am thinking of investing in a large LN shoulder plane. I am guessing it should be ideal for trimming shoulders?


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## mr (1 Feb 2007)

1a for me, but I aim for a flat shoulder, not sure why you mention convex, am I missing something? 
1c (?) method I intend to try soon - cutting to depth with handsaw, chopping out waste with big chisel (as I do now) and (new bit) cleaning up resultant mess with router plane. 

Mike


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## Philly (1 Feb 2007)

Paul
I use #2 since getting an accurate table saw. I still use a shoulder plane to correct any nastyness, though :wink: 
A shoulder plane is a very handy tool - you'll certainly appreciate having one! Don't forget to check out the Veritas ones as well as the beautiful planes from HNT Gordon.
Cheers
Philly


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## promhandicam (1 Feb 2007)

For me it would depend on the size and number of tenons. If it was several that were the same size then I think I'd go for doing them on the router table and making up a jig. If it were just one or two cut them by hand and adjust with a chisel. Like most things there isn't a right or wrong way - whatever you are most comfortable with. I've seen carpenters here in Africa use machetes for things that you or I would do with a chisel or plane. Someone will now be along to say that there is a right way and put me straight :wink: 

Steve


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## MarcW (1 Feb 2007)

Paul,

Best method I have adopted is sawing with a tenon saw to the line and cleaning with a router plane. Shoulders cleaned with a shoulder plane, but a sharp chisel is equivalent. 

Regards,

Marc


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## PaulO (1 Feb 2007)

mr":9pckhkfj said:


> not sure why you mention convex, am I missing something?



You're probably not missing something, it's probably me.

This is what I meant (grossly exaggerated):




The idea being that it will give you a nice tight joint when you clamp it up.


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## PowerTool (1 Feb 2007)

Excellent photos,Marc - thanks  

And I also go for 1a

Andrew


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## Philly (1 Feb 2007)

Now you're just showing off, Marc! :lol: 
Seriously, thanks for the pictures, very good! Looks like you had fun,
Philly


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## PaulO (1 Feb 2007)

MarcW":1defe94h said:


> Paul,
> 
> Best method I have adopted is sawing with a tenon saw to the line and cleaning with a router plane. Shoulders cleaned with a shoulder plane, but a sharp chisel is equivalent.



Beautifully done.

Any reason for not using a titemark gauge on the shoulder marking? Other than the price of having two?


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## Paul Kierstead (1 Feb 2007)

If doing lots, the table saw.
If doing a few, a fine crosscut saw (usually Japanese); I try to just "go for it", but if I am feeling shy, I might finish with a chisel. Sometimes I sort them out with the shoulder plane, but it is actually a bit of a bother. Once in a blue moon I use the band saw because it is running already (cheek cuts), but always a little shy because the bandsaw leaves a bit of a rought cut sometimes.


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## woodbloke (1 Feb 2007)

Philly wrote:


> A shoulder plane is a very handy tool - you'll certainly appreciate having one!


.......'specially the ones you make Philly :lol:

I sometimes true the cheeks after sawing by passing them across a router cutter in the table, just a feint skim is all that's needed to get them dead on - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (1 Feb 2007)

Nice pictures Marc. I like your wooden marking gauge - did you make it?

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (1 Feb 2007)

Marc - I see also from your excellent sequence of pics that you've got a steel bench dog :shock:.....if that were my bench they'd be replaced fairly smartly, in fact asap - Rob


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## Alf (1 Feb 2007)

Marc, great sequence of pics.


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## dunbarhamlin (1 Feb 2007)

Thanks Marc
I use my routers for mortice floors, but hadn't thought of the cheeks(?) - great idea.
What's the multiply morticed scrap(?) for? Checking you router depth?
Cheers
Steve


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## MikeW (1 Feb 2007)

PaulO, undercutting of tenon sholders is something I do frequently. As I usually clean up my shoulders with a chisel, it's in my hand anyway.

Steve, If Marc is doing what I often do, it's basically a set-up block for the job. Each mortise size, tenon depth/length and tenon thickness set by it. In the case of Marc's routerplane, it is used to quickly establish the offset for the cutter in tuning the tenon's relationship to a given depth.

Once correct, it removes making measurements on similar pieces.

Take care, Mike


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## MikeW (1 Feb 2007)

PaulO,

Typically I use a bandsaw or simply handcut them. Depends in part on mood, often on quantity. Once in a blue moon I use the WoodRat.

Fine tuning the tenon is mostly a rasp or file on the tenon cheeks, but before I sold it, a router plane was used if I had a bunch to do. Usually use a chisel for the shoulders.

Seeing how I'm going to be teaching another handtool use class in the near future and using a router plane is part of what I teach, guess I need a new one...

Take care, Mike


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## MarcW (1 Feb 2007)

PaulO":35lbta4r said:


> ...Any reason for not using a titemark gauge on the shoulder marking? Other than the price of having two?



Yes Paul, the wooden marking gauge has a longer fence than the TiteMark and allows to take out the wobbling movement on marking a line more than 3 cm from the board's edge.



> Nice pictures Marc. I like your wooden marking gauge - did you make it?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Paul



Nope Paul, it's a japanese gauge from Dieter Schmid. I like it much for its long fence.





> Marc - I see also from your excellent sequence of pics that you've got a steel bench dog .....if that were my bench they'd be replaced fairly smartly, in fact asap - Rob



Yes Rob, good advice, but I won't ever come to make some. #-o 



> Thanks Marc
> I use my routers for mortice floors, but hadn't thought of the cheeks(?) - great idea.
> What's the multiply morticed scrap(?) for? Checking you router depth?
> Cheers
> Steve



Steve, the scrap's just for setting the router plane. The mortises are testcuts with a new chisel, sort of multi-purpose-scrap-piece  .

Thank you all for your positive feedback,

Marc


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## AHoman (2 Feb 2007)

MarcW":fkbyzq7u said:


> [...] the scrap's just for setting the router plane. The mortises are testcuts with a new chisel, sort of multi-purpose-scrap-piece



Marc,
Thanks for explaining -- that pic was a mystery to me. (I don't use a router plane -- yet!)
Brilliant photos -- thanks for posting them. (Nice looking wood, too!) I'd love to see more posts like this -- aspects of projects, documenting use of hand tool techniques.
-Andy H


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## Anonymous (2 Feb 2007)

Dado cutters in radial arm saw.

Well you did ask! :lol: 

Cheers
Brad


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## Anonymous (2 Feb 2007)

Great photos Mark. 

Nice tools too 8) ...makes me a bit jealous.


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## Anonymous (2 Feb 2007)

You must enter a message when posting.


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## bugbear (2 Feb 2007)

MarcW":1to1f0w4 said:


> Paul,



Gooooooooooooooo Tyzack!

BugBear


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## MarcW (2 Feb 2007)

bugbear":21yhdmd8 said:


> Gooooooooooooooo Tyzack!
> 
> BugBear



Yes Tyzack, under 10 GBP but why goooooooooooo? :? Isn't it that common? 

Marc


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## Anonymous (2 Feb 2007)

Found you can also cut shallow tennons complete (not much deeper than an inch) with just a stanley 289. Going straight down into end grain.....
Found it quicker if you've got many to do.....just line them all up in the vise and do just one cheek for all of them at once.... do the other 3 cheeks the same. No saws, little marking out, no trimming.


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## bugbear (2 Feb 2007)

MarcW":2w95f582 said:


> Yes Tyzack, under 10 GBP but why goooooooooooo? :? Isn't it that common?



They're quite common, but rather good. I have several.

It's just that some people think that ONLY Disston saws have any merit at all.

BugBear


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## bugbear (2 Feb 2007)

Jake Darvall":rp5arth1 said:


> Found you can also cut shallow tennons complete (not much deeper than an inch) with just a stanley 289. Going straight down into end grain.....



It's standard to use a rebate plane (289 would work very well) to cut the very wide (multiple feet), and not very deep tenon for a breadboard end.

You would NOT want to saw that!

BugBear


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## MarcW (2 Feb 2007)

bugbear":1agi9l0d said:


> ...They're quite common, but rather good. I have several.
> 
> It's just that some people think that ONLY Disston saws have any merit at all.
> 
> BugBear



Bugbear, pst. I have to admit, I have no Disston, not a single one. :lol:


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## Anonymous (2 Feb 2007)

bugbear":23l9iuy1 said:


> Jake Darvall":23l9iuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > Found you can also cut shallow tennons complete (not much deeper than an inch) with just a stanley 289. Going straight down into end grain.....
> ...



Do you mean, straight down end grain, or do you mean accross grain ? 

Cause I'd imagine the traditional way is accross the grain with a nicker of sorts......with the table top or whatever flat on the bench....and working the end ? ......is that what you mean. 

Cause what I'm saying is different....an end grain cut. 

What I'm saying is if you've got many tenons to do at once, and the rails or styles or whatever arn't too long, is you can clamp them all up vertically in the vise well aligned with a tearout board following....with a deep face on the plane, the accuracys excellent I've found. More stable than off a thinner edge. 

Depending on your vise capacity and care put into alignment you can do, say, 6 tenons at once(or whatever), just running off the same depth stop setting. 

I've done it twice personally....first time so so....second time managed to iron out the problem .....good results.


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## Paul Chapman (2 Feb 2007)

Sounds good, Jake. Do you have any pictures?

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Anonymous (3 Feb 2007)

If I can find the chance to get out of the house today, I'll try and take a few shots using some scrap.  The misses gets cross though when she sees me walking with the camera though...to that means I'm being unproductive.... I'll have to hide it under my shirt :lol: :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (3 Feb 2007)

If she complains, Jake, just blame me - my wife usually does :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## spadge (3 Feb 2007)

Great Pics Mark but I was taught to cut the cheeks first. That means you can do all the marking whilst the wood is in the square. If you cut cheeks first then any haunches and finally the shoulders you don't have to scibe the cheek lines on a surface you have just cut (your fourth photo).
I guess whatever works for you is the best way but cutting in the sequece I was taught seems a bit more logical.

Cheers

Grahame


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## SON (3 Feb 2007)

Paul,
Machine (shoulders): dimension sawing on table saw and sliding table (with SUVA guard and riving knife in place!). Minor clean up with shoulder plane (after sawing cheeks) = bottom of saw kerf not flat. Sawblade height set on scrap piece. I bought the SUVA guard specifically to allow me to do this particular job safely.
Hand (shoulders): Mark shoulders with marking knife (deep to ~1mm) and cut ramp into waste using chisel so that tenon saw runs in triangular channel. (Technique shown in Alf Martensson's book The Woodworker's Bible). This means that the knifed line defines the surface which you will see in the assembled joint - gives a very clean shoulder line with no risk of breakout from cleaning up with shoulder plane.
Cheeks: Tenon saw or bandsaw. Shoulder plane or paring chisel to fine-tune fit as required.

Simon


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## Anonymous (3 Feb 2007)

Paul Chapman":1tshwazk said:


> If she complains, Jake, just blame me - my wife usually does :lol:
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul



:lol: ok Paul,,,,but I was lucky this time. She didn't notice. 

Try and follow Mark's example with some photos. 

All a bit ruff and ready... used brittle scrap pine... but should give an idea. 

I find it quicker than using a saw on each piece.....the planes locked in the vertical....so you tend to get good vertical cuts......so its like using a saw with a guide I suppose. Coming down end grains tuffer shore, but your width of cut is small so you can drop it relatively quickly with a coarse shaving......maybe lighten up near depth as usual. 

Be a few other ways of doing this for shore. Just found it to be a handy way of doing many identical pieces at once......limited to around an inch depth of tenon though....else your hand can get chewed up by the side of the leading cheek. :roll: ....happened to me once. 

Through some scrap through the thicknesser. Shot the ends square enough for the example......8 pieces here....2 of them will take the tearout (discard these pieces latter)





Should have scribed cross grain here with try square around the cheeks so theres lines to cleanup to latter. But was in a hurry and forgot to do it. 

The ideas just to clamp them all up in the vise vertically...lined up....clamp to help keep it all together....(probably should have used a stronger clamp....those quick grips aren't that strong I've found)





Then just take the 289 straight down the end grain....like this sort of thing...
















Then work on each individually with plane or a chisel so they bite nice...right onto the scribed lines.


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## Paul Chapman (3 Feb 2007)

Thanks for taking the trouble to do that, Jake - you're a star (but we knew that already :wink: ). That looks like a really good method and a very good finish for pine. That plane with the skewed blade (and the deep fence :wink: ) must help I would think - not many of them about.

Thanks again - I'll send the wife a box of chocolates :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Anonymous (3 Feb 2007)

Paul Chapman":1ws0wlwu said:


> - not many of them about.



Thanks Paul. Always kind. 

No. not many about. I couldn't justify spending a couple of hundred or more on one....... but I got lucky on ebay.....I won two 289 bodies for $30US........Missing all of the parts though. 

I think the designs flawed though....only a single rod....fence flexes about. I added a crude second arm to stop that....but I've probably mentioned that before....broken record...sorry. 

Thankyou, but we're right for chocolates.  I'm lucky enough to have a wife who likes to cook..... There's a container in the kitchen full of chocolate chip and macadamia nut cookies. Well, half full now. Ate about 20 of them last night  a couple this morning too. Probably not a good idea to have any more chocolate in the house. :wink:


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## Paul Chapman (3 Feb 2007)

Jake Darvall":r1ffewlk said:


> I think the designs flawed though....only a single rod....fence flexes about. I added a crude second arm to stop that....



You're right. Don't know why Stanley stuck with single rods on most of their fenced planes. Useless. It's why the Record #778 is so much better than the Stanley #78



Jake Darvall":r1ffewlk said:


> Probably not a good idea to have any more chocolate in the house. :wink:



Keep buying the chocolate, Jake. They reckon it's better than sex, which is a good thing when you get to my age   :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## MarcW (3 Feb 2007)

Thanks for sharing Jake, fine pics. Planing end grain in order to plane on tenons wasn't clear for me either. Seems I have to look around for a # 289 now. :lol: 

Marc


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## Anonymous (5 Feb 2007)

Paul Chapman":yrgruo6a said:


> Keep buying the chocolate, Jake. They reckon it's better than sex, which is a good thing when you get to my age   :lol:
> 
> Paul



:lol: I'm not sure what to say to that Paul. :lol: ..... beta hold my tongue :wink: 



Pleasure Mark. Thanking you too for those pics as well. Really enjoyed them .


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## Anonymous (7 Feb 2007)

I just mark out the tennons from the face side with a motrrice guage, and rip the cheeks first. I sometimes use a sharp knife (opinel) along the try square to score the shoulder lines and then cut another wedge shaped sliver along it so the saw drops into a nice vee, then that gives a crisp edge and a guide for the tennon saw. I always do them by hand at the mo. If theres any need for adjustements I use a 2 inch chisel


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## dedee (7 Feb 2007)

Here's how I did some on some cedar last year.

It is important not to turn the secondary fence over half way though as the resulting tenons will be a different sizes DAMHIKT!






With the cedar being so soft the waste just snapped off with just light finger pressure.





Cleaning the rough spots on the tenon with a chisel. The shoulders were all very clean straight from the saw although I think I went too far with the shoulder depth.  





Andy


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## ByronBlack (7 Feb 2007)

I have nothing to offer this thread i'm afraid. But I wanted to thank everyone who took the time to post pictures, and their techniques, this is very handy for me personaly!


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## MarcW (7 Feb 2007)

ByronBlack,

Let me add some pics more, 'cause I always feel so out of balance making a tenon without a mortice :lol: :wink: 

But first a pic of my two new benchdogs, they are a little softer at touch nevertheless really biting at the end \/ Thanks Rob for giving good advice to replace the existing metal versions :wink: :





So here a first mortice variation, haunched and rabbeted





Then some tenon pics from marking to cutting:


















Controlling a cheek for parallel to the rail's face with a combination square:





Finally some pics showing off mortising from setting the marking gauge over chopping to measuring squareness to the work:





































Hope you enjoyed,

Marc


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## Paul Chapman (7 Feb 2007)

Very nice set of pictures, Marc.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## AHoman (7 Feb 2007)

Marc,

Brilliant photos again!
I would like to ask, what are the advantages of the haunched + rabbetted mortise and what would you use it for?

Also admired your bench dogs -- they look like they like to have a job to do! (whether or not you want them to do it?)
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Andy


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## Mittlefehldt (7 Feb 2007)

Andy, I am sure MArc will contribute an answer to your question, but I can give you one use. Last year I made a screen door for my modest domicile, and I did the mortises and tenons, including the cross piece in the centre of the door, and not thinking it through clearly enough I ended up having to cut stopped rabbets in the inside of the door to accept the screens. 

It involved doing blind rabbets and not a little bit of blue air. I thought about it for some time afterwards, mostly when I was sitting on the back deck looking at it through a glass of local vin du pays, and worked out, (in my head that is) pretty much what Marc illustrated. Doing it that way I could have done through rabbets and then joined them together with little fuss, it would be much easier than what I did, and doubtless would have looked better.

Thanks Marc for posting that as it validates what I figured out and since you did it first I can see it better in my head now to. 

As to the original question I do it all by hand, because that is what I want to do. I recently built a closet organizer that involved forty two mortise and tenon joints, 2.5 inches long X 2 inches deep X .5 inches wide. The first mortise took me near half an hour, the last six less than an hour.

James


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## MarcW (7 Feb 2007)

Andy,

The combination of a haunched tenon and a rabbet not rabbeted as I wrote is indeed unlucky. A haunched tenon prevents the rail to distort but lets enough wood above the mortice, so the end will not crack. 

I rabbeted the whole frame (actually 4 ) in order to install T&G boards to fill in and didn't consider that the haunch would be half useless because the rabbet allows to make leeway at one side.

I use haunched mortises, when the tenon is not that wide and I risk distortion so a rail could move and so not stay anymore in the same plane as the style. 

Marc


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## Anonymous (7 Feb 2007)

1b

plane a small chamfer at the end of the shoulder to prevent breakout


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