# House Buying - Advice?



## BearTricks (23 Aug 2021)

Hi. 

We're currently house hunting (a big change from when I was making posts on here panicking about being unemployed and skint a few years ago) and we have put offers in on a few places but haven't managed to secure anything. Prices have shot up during COVID and while we're looking at places well within budget I'm struggling to justify offering so much on houses that were significantly cheaper 18 months ago and could end up significantly cheaper in the near future.

Most of the houses we're looking at also need a bit of work ranging from a new bathroom/kitchen to possible extensions or loft conversions so extra money on top of already expensive properties.

Most articles online are failing to give decent advice. I'm aware that's because they don't know what's going to happen. I'm wondering if anyone here has bought anything since the price rise and/or has experience of buying and selling in general, potentially through the building trade or property development, and might be able to help us hedge our bets or just settle my nerves. 

As an extra bit of background the area we're living in was fine when we moved in back in 2017 but has gone downhill significantly in the last couple of years with developers turning big, cheap houses in to HMOs and moving criminals (to put it bluntly) in. We'd like to get out ASAP. We have been saving for a few years with the plan to buy this year, but we didn't anticipate the housing market going nuts. 

It's a minefield at the moment and I'm in two minds whether to buy or wait so any sage advice or discussion would be appreciated.


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## doctor Bob (23 Aug 2021)

BearTricks said:


> It's a minefield at the moment and I'm in two minds whether to buy or wait so any sage advice or discussion would be appreciated.



That's the issue, no one knows. Beginning of pandemic it was doom and gloom on house prices. Now it's mental. It will continue for quite a while but will there be a crash. who knows.
I personally think there will be at somepoint but I know sweet fanny adams and it's just guess work. However at present I wouldn't believe an expert "house" person because they don't know.

Good luck, I'd still buy rather than rent.


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## AJB Temple (23 Aug 2021)

No one can forecast the future. What they can do is guess. What prices were 18 months ago or last week is irrelevant. What you think of prices is also irrelevant in a market sense as someone else will buy the house you would like. You are operating in todays market and you either accept the price and the risk of a future price fall, or you delay and keep paying rent and take the risk of further price rises. 

Houses are primarily to live in. If you are buying one for that, as opposed to investment or churn, then take a long term view. Prices will fluctuate over time, but we are not making more land and the population is not declining. Cash is earning nothing in the bank and current inflation is therefore making your earnings and savings worth less as time passes.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2021)

Yep. Nobody knows. Go for it now if that's what you want. You just have to make sure you are buying and selling signing same day if possible, so you don't get caught out by a sudden shift. 
The good news (for owners at least) is that prices have gone steadily up since 1960s except for little blips. Might all change, we live in changeable times.


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## Spectric (23 Aug 2021)

As has been said are you buying a home or a house. With inflated prices you need to get it right, if the property raises any doubts in your mind then walk away, at least you are not in the home counties where prices are really insane. You need to do some homework to ensure the new area is not going to be a case of out the pan and into the fire so use your head and not the heart to base your choices. That is a busy looking part of the country, you do have Axminster at Warrington nearby which could be a bonus. You don't say how big an area you are looking at but a lot of areas that were once nice have gone down the pan, and employment is not so great if you go to far north of Lancaster.


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## Blackswanwood (23 Aug 2021)

I tend to agree that a house is somewhere to live with the added bonus that if you are in for the long term it's a pretty safe investment. Even if you don't make the absolute most that you could by buying at the bottom and selling at the top it doesn't matter as long as you can afford it and enjoy living in it.

Just as no one can really be certain what will happen with house prices they also cannot with interest rates but locking in on a fixed rate with some of the offers around at the moment may be a good move.

We bought our first house just before a "market correction" - I probably had some negative thoughts at the time but in the scheme of things it was irrelevant.

Good luck - there's a deal to be done on your new home out there waiting!


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## DrPhill (23 Aug 2021)

If you are purchasing for the first time, or trading up, then high prices are a worry. If you are trading down, then they are a bonus.

I was told that the answer to the question 'is it a good time to buy my first house to live in?' is 'yes'. No ifs, no buts. What you might lose in depreciation will, over time, be dwarfed by what you save in rent.

If you are trading up by a modest amount then maybe you should take the same long term view. If you are planning to value-add then probably the same. 

Remember that a "house price crash" is not as scarey as the papers will have you believe. A 'major correction' is not having your house go up in value. To put some perspective on it look at this graph note that if you had bought in 2007 before 'the crash' you could have lost ~15% of the value of the house. But 10 years later you would have been ahead again. We sold around 2008 - and it looked like a loss - but we traded up further than we might have done in the boom years. Did we lose or win? I haven't a clue, but I don't regret it.


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## profchris (23 Aug 2021)

I bought my first house in 1987. When I sold it 6 years later, prices had crashed by 20%. But I had enough savings to make up the shortfall, and the bigger house I bought was also 20% cheaper, which meant I "saved" more than my loss on the house I sold. Still there, and now it's worth four times what I paid for it.

If it's a house to live in, the longer view makes paper losses pretty much irrelevant.

The short term issue is interest rates. From 1987-1991 my interest rate *tripled* - that would have put us under if I hadn't achieved a big promotion. Current interest rates are historically very low, so an increase is more likely than a further fall - factor that in! You need enough savings to withstand a year or two of increased mortgage repayments, or some strategy for finding that money if needed.


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## Daniel2 (23 Aug 2021)

BearTricks said:


> Hi.
> 
> We're currently house hunting (a big change from when I was making posts on here panicking about being unemployed and skint a few years ago) and we have put offers in on a few places but haven't managed to secure anything. Prices have shot up during COVID and while we're looking at places well within budget I'm struggling to justify offering so much on houses that were significantly cheaper 18 months ago and could end up significantly cheaper in the near future.
> 
> ...



Personally I would wait a bit.
As you have noticed, prices have gone crazy of late.
It is quite predictable that a slump will follow soon.
You don't want to be buying on the top of the market.
Bide your time and it will reward you.


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## Cabinetman (23 Aug 2021)

Apart from changes in market, the best way to move up the housing ladder is to buy a tired house and do it up as you suggested, the only other rule I can think of is never buy or spend to create the best house in the street.
I always think one of the questions that should be on the solicitors list that they send out is – is your neighbour a Christmas nutcase? I would hate to be illuminated and have hordes of people passing just to have a look at his eccentricity. Ian


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Aug 2021)

profchris said:


> Current interest rates are historically very low, so an increase is more likely than a further fall - factor that in! You need enough savings to withstand a year or two of increased mortgage repayments, or some strategy for finding that money if needed.


My wife works for an up market bank - they have been warned to expect negative interest rates.


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## Woody2Shoes (23 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> My wife works for an up market bank - they have been warned to expect negative interest rates.


They already are negative for many/most of us:

Inflation (depending on what you're spending your money on oil, houses, timber, what-have-you...) = supposedly 3%

Interest rates (depending on what you're lending for and what your assessed ability to repay is) = say 0.5 %

Real (i.e. effective) interest rate = -2.5%
In many cases, real interest rates are a lot worse.

High inflation and low interest rates favour those who've overborrowed (governments, oil companies, that sort of thing...)


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## AJB Temple (23 Aug 2021)

I suspect Phil that negative rates referred to are for core deposits with central bank and interbank rather than for retail customers. There is no demand for cash in the interbank market as there is not much banks can do the sums needed to meet their liquidity requirement. It's nothing new: LIBOR is floating negative currently on Euro, Yen and Swiss franc and is near 0.09% positive on sterling and a tad lower on dollar.


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## Jameshow (23 Aug 2021)

I would be sure to have an offer on a house accepted at the same time as accepting an offer on your house. 

If you don't you can end up with a fixed price on your current house and spiralling houses prices in houses you want to buy in weeks / months time. Happened by to my in-laws and sister. 

Cheers James


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## AJB Temple (23 Aug 2021)

Jameshow said:


> I would be sure to have an offer on a house accepted at the same time as accepting an offer on your house.
> 
> If you don't you can end up with a fixed price on your current house and spiralling houses prices in houses you want to buy in weeks / months time. Happened by to my in-laws and sister.
> 
> Cheers James


Based on this comment from OP: "We have been saving for a few years with the plan to buy this year, but we didn't anticipate the housing market going nuts". it would appear he is renting. Hence his is a single side transaction.


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## NikNak (23 Aug 2021)

Like the others have said, are you looking for a house or a home. Look for the area you _want_ to live in and buy the cheapest you can find in that area... the only way from there is up. 
And when you find your Shangri-La, with interest rates at historical lows... every month... over pay over pay over pay on your mortgage.


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## Cordy (23 Aug 2021)

@*BearTricks*
My advice is to buy into the market
Go for quality, it will perhaps mean sacrifices -- but buy !
Property prices are going up and will continue to rise
We need to pay billions to cover Covid issues; not discussed but the government will be 
using the *Quantitative Easing* tool which can only spell inflation
Q/E is effectively the government printing money

Last year I offered to sell a property to a tenant for a fair price. He should have snatched my hand off !
Instead he waited 12 months then said he was interested.
By that time I had changed my mind. We both knew that property prices had rocketed in the interim.

Do your own research and Good Luck !


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## ian33a (24 Aug 2021)

If you are currently renting, get into the market, certainly. Long term, its definitely a good investment. 

If you already own something and are concerned about staying in the vicinity, definitely start looking seriously. Rightmove is an excellent resource.

Decide upon a new area and target property that you can add value to but which is placed in the *best* *area* that you can afford even if the house is the worst in the street. This gives you an opportunity to add value with much margin for gain. 
If, instead, you buy the *best house* in an average area, you wont be able to add as much value because you will hit the ceiling price of the area. 
To some degree, this is where we find ourselves at present, albeit, we've been in our house for 23 years and it has shot up in value over the years so we are less concerned about this.

Also remember, that negative equity aside, if you sell and buy, its all about the cost to change. If the market in the area where you buy and sell is hot, it will cost more to trade up. If the market is depressed, the cost to trade up is lower. This will always be the case so house price inflation and deflation isn't necessarily as bad as some think. We've tended to buy when the market is down as the differentials have worked in our favour.

If you live in an expensive area but can afford to move to a cheaper area, you will get better value. A cheaper area should be considered in the context of the *resources you need* (schools, railways, airports, hospitals, etc.) and not because it is rough and everyone is crossing their fingers for gentrification.

Moving is expensive so its wise to do it as infrequently as you can. Look for a house which meets your needs now and which should meet them for a good few years to come. So, think about a move which may stretch you a little more financially now but which will give you more growing room in the future. Better to pay more in mortgage and enjoy the benefits than pay several rounds of stamp duty and removal fees and see little for it.

Again, depending upon area, I think there will be some softening of prices in the coming months, perhaps year, and the stamp duty holiday has softened the market somewhat - but not as much as some think. There is a pent up demand to spend money as interest rates are low both for buying and saving. I'm told that it is very much a sellers market as there are far less properties than buyers. While this remains the case, prices will probably remain strong. 

We are also considering a move but circumstances mean that a move wont take place until the spring of next year at the earliest.


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## Blackswanwood (24 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> My wife works for an up market bank - they have been warned to expect negative interest rates.


Warned by who Phil?


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## Phil Pascoe (24 Aug 2021)

Head office.


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## Chris152 (24 Aug 2021)

I don't know if it's relevant to you BearTricks, but I've been wondering about how long price rises will maintain out in the countryside as people escape from the cities, home working, inflating prices in more remote areas due to covid (that reason keeps cropping up in the news). I live in a small town surrounded by agricultural land and it's got me wondering if I should sell up and live in a cardboard box til they all return to the offices.


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## Blackswanwood (24 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Head office.



The regulators (PRA and FCA) asked the financial services industry to ensure if it happened they could administer it earlier this year. I know this led to the media thinking this meant it was going to happen which has always been far from a certainty.

Interesting that your wife's Head Office see this as something to expect. It doesn't make them wrong of course but it is a brave statement to make.

Cheers


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## AlanY (24 Aug 2021)

I cannot help with advice on future house prices, but I would advise you to investigate the development plan for the area you are considering moving to. Otherwise, that premium you pay for a lovely view across those fields might evaporate when the council decides to give planning permission for a developer to build 700 houses on those fields. In the South East, this seems to be happening everywhere. The village in which I live has had estates built such that there is no longer any green fields separating our village from its neighbours.


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## daftdog (24 Aug 2021)

Just bye with a decent size rear area that you can make your own allotment it wont be long before its food or mortgage.


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## jcassidy (24 Aug 2021)

I'll give my 2c to the OP first - anyone interested in how Central Banking works can read on below 

We (2+2 household) bought a house 2 years ago after renting. Worst house in Best area. I asked my wife to list the top 5 asks in order of priority : walking distance to the sea, Near a good school, south facing garden, near shops, gas supply. My only requirement was that it would be within an hour of Dublin City centre by public transport. This really narrowed down the possible locations - especially the 'walking distance to sea' bit, which forced us to look at areas we didn't know (and frankly, never heard of). We ended up buying in a well-established 90's built cul-de-sac within 5 minutes walk of the sea, school, and Tesco.

Economically speaking the only important aspects are your personal finances; How much can you afford to borrow and at what interest rate? That will determine your upper bounds. The 'top 5' approach I adopted delimits a search area. It's just a matter of being open, viewing houses, always going back to the 'top 5' requirements.

External factors such as 'where are house prices going?' are generally speaking only relevant to investors, unless as a private buyer, you can afford to wait. Say you are paying £13k in rent per annum; if you are sure that your ideal house will be £14k cheaper next year, then sure, wait and save a grand...

Now on to Central Banking;
Central Banks influence retail interest rates by charging banks interest on their overnight deposits (US Fed does it differently). There is a margin between the Central Bank's rate and the retail banks public rates which covers the risk and opportunity costs for the retail banks. i.e. if the retail banks need a return of 5%, and the central bank rate is 3%, the public rate that banks will loan out money is 7%. Otherwise the bank won't loan and will leave excess cash on overnight deposit with the central bank.

Now at 7%, people are likely to save and unlikely to borrow. So the Central Bank, in order to keep the economy going, needs people to save less and borrow more, so they bring their interest rates down until the rates offered to Joe Public are at a place where Joe Public is happy to borrow. 

Negative interest rates like now are unorthodox tools (extremely so) and are caused because banks just aren't lending because they can't get a high enough return, and/or Joe Public just isn't borrowing because consumer confidence is low or interest rates are too high.

Banks would rather pay the Central Bank negative interest rates than take the risk of losing that money in bad loans to Joe Public / Jim Industry. Bad loans leads to greater reserve requirements, and Bankers hate having to hold reserves, so better to not loan out the money than have to hold on to greater reserves.

The monetary policy is now well outside established norms so the Central Banks are hinting that the Governments need to do more from a fiscal viewpoint - start raising taxes on that, lowering taxes on this, investing here, divesting there... 

One the same vein, retail banks are unlikely to start charging Joe Public negative interest rates because that would cause a run in the bank concerned. What they will do is cap deposits and charge higher fees. Same thing, different mechanism. Holders of large deposits (corporations, high net worth in individuals) excluded - they are being charged negative interest rates on cash deposits right now.

bit of an essay there so I'll stop while I'm ahead!


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## Terrytpot (24 Aug 2021)

The average person needs to remember just a few things…
Even though it seems expensive, your dwelling is a long term acquisition, and historically they do nothing but appreciate in value providing you use a long term view. The few lucky individuals who make a quick profit off a short term investment are not the norm and unless a truly unique opportunity presents itself you shouldn’t assume you’ll be joining their ranks. More importantly imho is the fact that if you require financial assistance to purchase a property you need to give serious consideration to how much your payments could increase when any fixed interest periods end. The current interest rates strike me as ludicrous and unsustainable and will have to at some point move and the concern has to be just how far they will when they do start to shift. Having experienced the delight of negative equity back in the 80’s and interest rates in the teens I shudder to think what that could do to someone coming out of a fixed interest period from the silly low rates we’ve enjoyed for the last decade or so.


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## Terry - Somerset (24 Aug 2021)

Lots of sound advice already but would add a few observations:

I am in the somewhat fortunate position of considering purchase of a buy to let flat. At the moment there is little or nothing on the market - possibly due to the holiday season, stamp duty holiday and covid impacts.
I am hoping the market reverts to normal in a month or two. I am uncomfortable buying when things are volatile and will wait for some stability. 
buying a house to live in is usually for the long term, if for no other reason than moving is so expensive. Personally I have tended to limit the number of house moves - try to be very clear what it is you really want, need or expect from your purchase.
no-one can tell you what will happen in the future - if they could they would be very wealthy indeed. Rents and house values may both change in the future. 
The real question is whether you buy a house needing work, and the extent to which you can diy. Not all improvements need to be done in the first year.
if you have saved a reasonable deposit, the mortgage on a property of similar size to the one you are currently renting may be no higher than the rental (possibly less)
a fixed rate mortgage for at least 3 years can be a good idea as it protects you from uaffordable increases. You may lose out if interest rates fall further - although in my view this is unlikely. A better safe than sorry approach!


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## heimlaga (24 Aug 2021)

My advice is to think through very thoroughly what you and your family want and need both now and in the long term.

It is easy to get lured into thinking that you want exactly what everybody else want and then go hunting for what everybody else hunts for and then pay way too much to get it.
It is also easy to forget that life situations tend to change and having a huge mortagage on a large house on a very small plot of land may become akin to owning a white elephant if anything changes. Sometimes it is way better to have a smaller house and enough land to build a workshop and a few sheds and have a kitchen garden. Shed space is cheaper per cubic metre than heated living space so therefore it is often a good idea to have a small house large enough for living but not for storing stuff plus some cheap outbuildings for storing stuff plus outbuildings can be used for some sort of small business or side income if times change. The more versatility the better!


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## Ozi (24 Aug 2021)

Two things that matter in this decision is how safe your job seems and how much equity you will have, I have always been in the fortunate position of being able to buy while borrowing a bit less than the maximum I would have been allowed. Then if it's at all possible making the odd over payment. With my first house that meant almost no furniture, I used a large cardboard box as a table for over a year but hammered the hell out of the mortgage, glad I did when things turned south we had interest rates go 8% to 10% to 12% then back to 10% in one day. Having a bit of credit with the building society saved my bacon. 

You only get one life, if you are living somewhere you don't feel happy unless it's a reckless risk I would say move, be realistic, don't stretch your finances too far. As long as you can keep paying that mortgage unless you have to move the current price don't matter and once you have some equity behind you as others have said falling prices close the gap if you want to move up and rising prices increase the percentage of the house you own.

Good luck, and whatever choice you make be happy with it


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## Sean33 (24 Aug 2021)

BearTricks said:


> Hi.
> 
> We're currently house hunting (a big change from when I was making posts on here panicking about being unemployed and skint a few years ago) and we have put offers in on a few places but haven't managed to secure anything. Prices have shot up during COVID and while we're looking at places well within budget I'm struggling to justify offering so much on houses that were significantly cheaper 18 months ago and could end up significantly cheaper in the near future.
> 
> ...


No expert by any means but the best piece of advice i have ever been given re houses is your better to have the worst house on a nice street than the best on the worst. A friend of mine has a small homebuilding company and he is still looking to buy land now if that helps. He also said i think its the nationwide is offering a 5 yr fixed mortgage at 1.19%. I have always listened to him and his point is as above and the worst house can always be tarted up to be in line with the street


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## starlingwood (24 Aug 2021)

You just need to get on the ladder. It's rubbish I know but I cant see anything on the immediate horizon that will rock the economy and if a global pandemic didn't then whats it got to take. 

If you get on and there is a crash so will all other places too which can work to advantaged if you're moving up the ladder. Just got to do it. Do not flitter money away on rent.


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## ian33a (25 Aug 2021)

I feel that the belief that money is wasted on rent isn't especially valid. While I don't rent myself, but have done on occasions, a mortgage isn't the holy grail that many people think it is.

If you rent, you pay somebody each month for the flexibility to live in a place, generally free of risk, for an agreed period of time.

If you fund a mortgage, especially in the early stages, you pay a lender an amount of money each month to fund, almost totally, the interest on a debt and administration and their shareholder return. Very little of it pays against capital - with some mortgages, none of it ever does. You own a portion of the property but the lender generally retains ultimate control over the property. You do get a stake in the financial gain if the property appreciates in value but, you are also exposed to the risk if it drops with the lender having a more limited risk than you do.

My son and his girl friend were considering buying having just graduated from university and starting new jobs. I suggested that they rent for a while during which they could establish themselves workwise, decide what they wanted in a purchased property, save as much as they could and accumulate a decent deposit. Then, when more sure of what they want and how they are, buy more at leisure, probably with a better interest rate and more immunity from price fluctuation. 

I'm not saying that anybody should rent forever, quite the opposite, but rental money, in my opinion, isn't burning money in the way that many people think it is.


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## Amateur (25 Aug 2021)

We are a society of people who are afraid to move homes out of the areas we were brought up in or commute for work.
This fear or dependency needs to change if people are expecting value for money in the property market.
A city is just that. Most types of job positions are stereotype all over the country with excellent home prices.
On renting.
Well if you get used to any spare money you invariably will spend it on other things and maybe never get out of this chain.
But the main point is this.
Whatever you buy should be your home. Somewhere if you want kids you can happily bring them up there.
But Not a vehicle to remortgage your summer holiday with.
Just my thoughts you understand.


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## Glitch (25 Aug 2021)

Short answer:
Get on the ladder. You need a roof over your head. It doesn't really matter how much the property is worth in the short term. Negative equity is only a problem when you sell.


Building equity only really matters if your plan is to eventually downsize and release money to help fund retirement or to be mortgage free.

Best street thing is a safe bet but certainly here in London you can get more by picking the next hotspot before it takes off.
Good areas are always expensive. Up and coming areas have more scope for bigger profits, or getting more for your money.

Try to get a house that will meet your future space requirements, or with scope to extend. In a rising market it quickly becomes impossible to move up the ladder in the same area.

Make sure you have enough headroom to fund a hike in interest rates.

Now the rambling bit:

Overpaying whilst mortgage rates are low isn't always the best option. Pay more into your pension instead. You'll get tax relief and maximise employer contributions.
You can use tax free lump sum in retirement to pay off mortgage.
If interest rate rises reduce pension contributions to cover increase in mortgage.

Met my (final) wife in 1987 after divorce. Bought her flat and rented it out whilst we moved to another house together. Prices crashed but just waited until they recovered and the (then non paying) tenant was evicted. Came out with small profit. Put me off BTL for life. Should have stuck with it. Cheaper areas of London have rocketed over the years.

Wife took redundancy after first child born. Used money to move to much nicer area.
Should have rented that house out too!
Bought smallest house on one of the best streets. Now Aston Martins and Porsches down the other end of the street whilst I've kept my battered 2004 CR-V 

Been here 28 years. Extended and improved. Now an empty nest and I've retired. Neighbouring areas have shot up by bigger percentage

Actively looking to move to Suffolk.
Surprised and pleased with our valuation. House will sell very quickly.

Problem is the market for our target areas and property type is just as bonkers as where we are now. Multiple offers over asking price for properties we like and sold within 1-2 weeks.

Bloody WFH Johnnies have over heated the market out in the sticks.


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## Suffolkboy (25 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> Short answer:
> Get on the ladder. You need a roof over your head. It doesn't really matter how much the property is worth in the short term. Negative equity is only a problem when you sell.
> 
> 
> ...




Where in Suffolk? We are currently looking in Suffolk and it's nuts. People buying houses without a viewing a couple of hours after it's gone on rightmove! Had several offers that we have placed over the asking price beaten by people offering more.


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## Glitch (25 Aug 2021)

Suffolkboy said:


> Where in Suffolk? We are currently looking in Suffolk and it's nuts. People buying houses without a viewing a couple of hours after it's gone on rightmove! Had several offers that we have placed over the asking price beaten by people offering more.



We are fairly flexible but probably the same places everyone is clamouring for. 
Ideally near Suffolk coast from Woodbridge up to Southwold and across to Halesworth, Framlingham.
Pretty much ruled out Beccles and Saxmundham and anywhere too remote or sitting on the A12. Not actually in Southwold and Aldeburgh too expensive/busy.

We've only just had our place valued so haven't done any viewings yet. We've called agents about specific properties and as you say it's completely crazy, places under multiple offers within days. Prices in Suffolk and Norfolk rising faster then London.

Agents are being pretty lazy in my opinion. The presentation on Rightmove is often poor. Not enough useful photo's and details. They should do a far better marketing job for a couple of weeks, then hold an open day and invite best and final offers. They shouldn't accept offers from people who haven't viewed and haven't been properly vetted. It'll lead to buyers dropping out. No doubt people will have an offer accepted and still keep looking.

Unless you're a cash buyer the inflated prices will get knocked back by the mortgage lender when they do their valuation.

We're not under any pressure to move other than golden years of retirement slipping away. Might have to wait and see if the market calms down.


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## Suffolkboy (25 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> We are fairly flexible but probably the same places everyone is clamouring for.
> Ideally near Suffolk coast from Woodbridge up to Southwold and across to Halesworth, Framlingham.
> Pretty much ruled out Beccles and Saxmundham and anywhere too remote or sitting on the A12. Not actually in Southwold and Aldeburgh too expensive/busy.
> 
> ...



Lovely area you are looking. 

I grew up in Aldeburgh. 

Have you considered a Barge on the Deben?


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## Sheptonphil (25 Aug 2021)

One piece of advice I have always adhered to when buying a house (I’m on my 11th house) “better to buy the worst house in the best street, than the best house in the worst street”. 

whatever your reservations, just buy, you’ll always realise your nett outlay when all is taken into account. Don’t keep making offers, someone is going to pay the asking price, make sure it’s you.


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## BearTricks (25 Aug 2021)

Thanks for the advice everyone.


AJB Temple said:


> Based on this comment from OP: "We have been saving for a few years with the plan to buy this year, but we didn't anticipate the housing market going nuts". it would appear he is renting. Hence his is a single side transaction.



That's right. I should have been more clear. We were renting previously and offered to move in to an empty property owned by one of my parents a few years ago. The logic being that I'll eventually get at least some of those rent payments back at some point down the line. 

We have actually had an offer accepted as of today. Our deposit is healthy so we're not actually lending an amount that I feel uncomfortable about. The property needs some work but it's liveable while we get the jobs done assuming we don't hit any stumbling blocks before getting the keys.


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## Spectric (25 Aug 2021)

The most important thing about your pile of bricks is that it is your home, think like that and it's value is irrelevant and so get on and enjoy living there. Given my time again and if I was late twenties / early thirties now I would without hesitation be getting out of England, it is just becoming an over crowded over developed sespit, only those of a certain age can appreciate how nice it was.


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## Jameshow (25 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> The most important thing about your pile of bricks is that it is your home, think like that and it's value is irrelevant and so get on and enjoy living there. Given my time again and if I was late twenties / early thirties now I would without hesitation be getting out of England, it is just becoming an over crowded over developed sespit, only those of a certain age can appreciate how nice it was.


Or it's move to somewhere like Northumberland, mid Wales or North Devon to a quieter way of life 

Cheers James


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## johnny (26 Aug 2021)

ian33a said:


> I feel that the belief that money is wasted on rent isn't especially valid. While I don't rent myself, but have done on occasions, a mortgage isn't the holy grail that many people think it is.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that anybody should rent forever, quite the opposite, but rental money, in my opinion, isn't burning money in the way that many people think it is.


I couldn't agree more . I have rented property for most of my working life and the major benefit for me was that I could afford to rent large houses and flats with plenty of rooms and space in great locations which I could not have afforded had I bought something on a mortgage. 

shortly after leaving UNI In 1988 I was offered to buy the property I was renting at that time ,a GF flat in a tiny old cottage containing a 1x bed flat on each floor . I was offered £7500.00 cash to buy so I jumped at the chance to get on the property ladder and at last gain some security of tenure.

The flats were tiny with a small courtyard ,in desperate need of modernisation and located on a busy hill in a small Somerset Village . I repaired and upgraded them and eventually sold them making a small profit . The five years I lived there were truly miserable . Small windows, no storage space, no garden, no outlook, and dark inside all year round. A typical 100 year old workers cottage.

Having learnt my lesson in 1999 I looked for a more suitable property to rent and found a huge end of terrace 4x bed cottage with huge garden in a private secluded lane at £465.00 month rent.. It was heaven. I ran my Business there with an office and electronics workshop and My partner and myself lived there for 13 years and in all that time the rent stayed at £465 per cal month. ! The Landlord refused to sell us the property but I have calculated that taking into account the increase in equity and the huge mortgage it would have required I have still been better off financially and lived in a great property in a fabulous location for a peppercorn monthly rent instead of a huge monthly mortgage .

Due to an inheritance in 2012 we purchased the adjacent property and are enjoying our retirement in security with no mortgage or rent to pay.
I know that I have been very fortunate but my experience is that life is not about saddling yourself with a huge mortgage and other large loans ..... its about quality of life however you can achieve that


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## Ollie78 (26 Aug 2021)

A house is still always worth a house. 
The market goes up and down together in general. I could sell my house for loads more than we payed but will still need to buy another one. Treat it as a home not an investment.
Don't be scared of work, better to buy something older and properly built than some new estate type house by a big builder.

Ollie


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## ian33a (26 Aug 2021)

Indeed Ollie, and I've often said to people, you only realise the financial value of a house if you plan to sell it and live in a cave or if you are forced into a care home.

We are in the process of passively looking as we may move next year - various windfalls allowing us to move somewhere which offers better value. If we do move it will be to something that allows us to exploit our hobbies and interests better, now that we are retired. In that regard, a move is for enjoyment and adventure and not purely for financial investment.

I also agree with your sentiment about new builds. Small, quality builders aside, the big companies are throwing up shoe boxes with handkerchief sized gardens and no privacy and charging a premium for doing so. Older stuff has more character and space around it.


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## Spectric (26 Aug 2021)

ian33a said:


> I feel that the belief that money is wasted on rent isn't especially valid. While I don't rent myself, but have done on occasions, a mortgage isn't the holy grail that many people think it is.


We have been brought up in this country to believe it is, drumed into us that bricks are a good investment to sell the ideal yet it is a very good means to ensure people support the economy by knowing their home is at risk if you don't pay the debt. You go through education to start a career which funds both the government and your lifestyle, you get a wife, start a family and buy a home, work until old age then retire. Now if you are unlucky and need support they use the money tied up in your house to pay the cost of care until there is little left when it get's paid for you. 

So renting does sound like you are just spending money but you do have a home, your rent is less than an average mortgage and you do not have to worry about major repairs. You also have more freedom to just move elsewhere without the hassle of buying and selling property. Ok so with a mortgage it does get cheaper towards the end of the term but even when you own the property the capital is tied up, you could sell up and rent or move into a residual lodge(caravan) or join the other brits abroad like that lot in sado park in spain. The other option is to get fleeced and go for a capital release scheme, whatever you choose you still need a home.

So what is the best option, rent or buy? There is no answer that is right for all, you decide and live with the decision, but a mortgage is not the must have option. Renting is more popular in europe but they probably have more controls in place, buying is a big commitment, my opinion is that you need to base it on how much of your income will be consumed by your mortgage for the next fifteen years, and how much impact this will have on what you expect from life. These days mortgages are consuming a high percentage of income, once upon a time the man of the house could support everything but now you need more than an average wage. My mortgage was about 5% of my annual income so not an issue, now some are needing more than 30% of their total joint income, must impact their lives. I personally would not buy a property under the current enviroment, to much outlay and harder to earn good money these days so to much impact, as I have said emigration is a good option for youngsters with ambition or rent a property until a property crash which will happen, too many properties are becomming out of reach for mew buyers.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2021)

Renting is all very well but why anyone would want to be paying rent when they retire is beyond me.

I was thinking to emigrate in the mid '80s but plans went belly up. My sister's a Kiwi, having been there since 1987, and has done very nicely - they have two houses, one about £1,300,000 and the other about £500,000 - both will be sold when they retire and they'll downsize and have a nice pension.

I remember my grandmother going nuts when her rent increased to £2 7s 6d a week. (£2.37 1/2p for you callow youths.)


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> your rent is less than an average mortgage


Not around here.... its always been more than a mortgage, which is crazy ( for the renter) because if you can afford to rent, the bank should give you a mortgage, but no, it doesn't work like that! 

I don't think pandemic prices will go back down, certainly not here. It sometimes stalls, but doesn't drop.

I am definitely on the hamster wheel, got to work to pay for everything and you cant stop! Kids, wife, mortgage, lots of tools and other things to go wrong and fix.
What else is there? You can't just go live on a piece of woodland, the local council come after you and its a real fight ( a friend of mine has done this )

Lots of great comments above for the pro and con of it all, but I would buy somewhere if you can


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## Spectric (27 Aug 2021)

Ah yes Devon, second home hotspot which is totally unfair on locals. Up here a couple were evicted because their rent was about £450 a month, as a holiday let the greedy landlord could get £800 a week, hope the taxman takes a good lump.

I was lucky in that I brought in the south and then sold to escape the rat race being created by over development and moved north, a one way trip but up here people live, down south most just survive. Also earning good money in the nineties, more than I could earn now even down south because a lot of the work went abroad but were easy times. Now if faced wth what many are facing it would be a dilema, wages have not kept pace with property prices and the gap is much larger now so I would really struggle yet people are living on just £30K or less.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> people are living on just £30K or less.



£30,000 for many in Cornwall is the stuff of dreams.


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## baldkev (28 Aug 2021)

Yarp  
Imagine being a young couple both working at tescos or something. You just don't have a chance at getting a house unless someone helps you ( family )
We wanted to move pre pandemic, no chance now so we are probably going to do a loft conversion subject to planning etc..... its an AONB so a bit more complex
Mind you, how lucky are we? At least we didn't get born in Afghanistan


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## Glitch (28 Aug 2021)

We need to build 'council houses'
Not through housing associations disguised as charities.

Today's social housing is hardly affordable on the average wage. Often needs two wage earners.

So glad my Mum and Dad didn't take up right to buy. I could have bought it for them (or really for us kids)
Mum now has a nice council retirement bungalow for her final years and no property or care home cost worries.

Father in law had to buy the council flat (now housing association) he has lived in since 1966 because he couldn't afford the rent on his basic pension. It cost peanuts but he has paid out £thousands for repairs to the block and faced with many thousands more for fire safety improvements and cladding issues. The flat cannot be sold. He is 91 and the equity in the unsaleable flat might have to be used for his final years care costs if we can't persuade him to move in with us.

We need to provide affordable secure housing for those that need it. Right to buy is a failure in my opinion.
Let those that can afford it buy property.
Short term lets on the private market. Long term security through councils, just like the old days.

A proper house building program can create jobs and training opportunities. Build for quality not profit.


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## baldkev (30 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> A proper house building program can create jobs and training opportunities. Build for quality not profit.


 Many years ago I thought it would be a good idea to set up a building scheme for affordable housing. The basic premise is that you have a core of well trained personelle that oversee the crews and help with training. The scheme would take on apprentices, mostly young or homeless, to train them up and give them a shot at life. On site accommodation can easily be sorted for the homeless while the works are ongoing. 


As for right to buy, my in laws bought theirs and still live there, it gave them a massive leg up and they had 4 kids, so it definitely helped them
There are a ton of issues with the idea, like people stealing materials etc, but there is with big building firms anyway.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> .
> Let those that can afford it buy property.



Yes. And means test everyone in social housing - if they can afford to buy, they can afford a free market rent.

The right to buy wasn't a bad idea per se, the bad idea was not reinvesting the money and building more.


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## Terry - Somerset (30 Aug 2021)

Some of these comments are quite polarised - individual experiences vary widely:

The cost of renting is not dissimilar to purchase - a typical rental yield is ~5% gross from which the landlord needs to deduct service charges, maintenance costs, insurance etc. Current long term fixed rate mortgage (10 years) is ~4%.
The impact over time on mortgage rates, property values, rental costs may be speculation, but historically house price changes increase the owners equity, rental costs typically increase to reflect property values.
Moving house is a significant cost - not just the obvious costs of stamp duty, estate agent, legal, removals, but (likely) carpets, curtains, decorations, structural etc. Rental may be best whilst young if there is an expectation of moving for career development. 
A personal view - long term ownership is the preferred model - simplistically mortgages can be repaid, rent continues until we shuffle off the mortal coil!
Affordability of property varies widely across the country. Regional income levels also vary. We should be wary of making generalisations based on personal circumstances which are inherently individual (I may also be guilty of this).
We are becoming a property polarised society. Those who inherit from property owning parents are likely to become far wealthier than those who inherit from renters. 
This may be a key driver of buy to let in recent years. Often the inheritance comes at an age where the need is to reinforce pension provision (BTL) or repay outstanding mortages, not meet an immediate financial need.


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## J-G (30 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The right to buy wasn't a bad idea per se, the bad idea was not reinvesting the money and building more.


Absolutely!!

That's one of the few things that Maggie got wrong 

It's not that councils didn't re-build - they were not allowed to use the funds created to do so !


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Aug 2021)

I've always thought the lack of means testing unfair - I know a chap quite well who earned between three and four times what I earned whose rent I effectively spent decades subsidising. I don't think that is the way the system should be designed to work.


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## Lonsdale73 (30 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've always thought the lack of means testing unfair - I know a chap quite well who earned between three and four times what I earned whose rent I effectively spent decades subsidising. I don't think that is the way the system should be designed to work.



If he was earning three or four times your earnings and therefore presumably not on benefits, then how were you subsidising his rent?


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## RobinBHM (30 Aug 2021)

BearTricks said:


> Most articles online are failing to give decent advice. I'm aware that's because they don't know what's going to happen. I'm wondering if anyone here has bought anything since the price rise and/or has experience of buying and selling in general



my advice is that there are now 2 stages of price negotiations: at offer and following survey

surveys are now used as leverage -and around loads of house purchases fall through following survey and or the price gets dropped.

house prices wont fall -unless there is a major economic crash, which is unlikely.....unless we are all dead from covid


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Aug 2021)

Lonsdale73 ^^^ Because I was paying taxes, he was getting a cheap house, subsidised by the tax payers..


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Aug 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> surveys are now used as leverage -and around loads of house purchases fall through following survey and or the price gets dropped.



A problem buyers and lenders are having (especially in areas like Cornwall where the prices are escalating by the minute is that people are agreeing to buy then the surveyors are valuing the property (even if near perfect) at way under the asking price.


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## Lonsdale73 (30 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Lonsdale73 ^^^ Because I was paying taxes, he was getting a cheap house, subsidised by the tax payers..


And he wasn't paying taxes on his triple/quadruple earnings?


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## Spectric (30 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> We need to build 'council houses'


We will need to build an awful lot of houses if bumbling Borris opens up the doors for people from war torn regions, we are so willing to help everyone else but not our own. You should get your own house in order before sorting out anyone elses.


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## Terry - Somerset (30 Aug 2021)

I supported the sale of council housing in the belief that owner occupiers take more care of the property and the local environment. It relieves the taxpayer of subsidies required for council and social housing.

But the key to ensuring people have somewhere to live rests not on whether it is publically or privately constructed, nor whether it is rented or owned, but only that there is a sufficient quantity, of the right quality, in the right place, at the right (fair?) price.

Councils seem to attach importance to the quality of construction as they are likely to be responsible for the property for many decades to come. 

By contrast the private sector seem content if the building lasts long enough not to give rise to an expensive claim - NHBC is apparently 2 years for defects and 10 years for structure. 

We do not need more council housing, but improved building standards and enforcement. Councils could support this by (a) giving planning permission only for high quality homes, and (b) refusing occupation of houses which do not meet these standards. Pigs might fly as well!


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Aug 2021)

Lonsdale73 said:


> And he wasn't paying taxes on his triple/quadruple earnings?


Of course he was. He should be subsidising other people's housing not his own.


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## Lonsdale73 (30 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Of course he was. He should be subsidising other people's housing not his own.



Okay, someone mentioned a salary a £30k salary so for aument's sake let's say that back then that's what you were earning. Over the course of a year, you would have taken home around £24, 000. Being on triple your salary, his take home would have been £60, 000 so he will have paid more in tax and NIC than you would have earned in total in the same period. Unless he hoarded every last penny under his mattress, it's probable that he spent more than you did on various goods, helping comapnies to make money that kept staff in jobs with a regular income. Thus, he was 'subsidising' the housing of others to a far greater extent than you were doing. If he really was on four times as much as you, then each year his contribution is nearly double your annual income and EIGHT TIMES your contribution.

Ignoring for a moment that renting isn't always necessarily cheaper than a mortgage (I no longer have one of those but if I was to rent my house out tomorrow it would bring a return some 25% higher than the mortgage to buy it would cost), after 25 years, you've paid yours off, it's probably worth several times what you paid for it and from now on all your income is all yours. Maybe one day you will leave it to your kids to squabble over or think "Sod them, I'm off on a round the world cruise that I'm never coming back from." Meanwhile, Mr Renter is still paying his rent on a property that he might well think of as home but will never be his, never be something he can pass on except to the next custodian who these days has to rent at over the odds because some banker tells them that they can't afford a mortgage.

Flipside of your arguement is that for all those years, for all the money he paid into the system, he'll receive the same state pension as you so it could be said that he is subsidisng your dotage.


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## Trainee neophyte (31 Aug 2021)

You get a job to earn money to pay rent or buy a house. You swap many, many hours of your life for bits of paper, which are then swapped for a mortgage or rent. (It's ironic that the bits of paper are actually someone else's debt, created by a bank out of thin air, which you slave to earn, and then give back to the bank as your mortgage payment, thereby destroying said debt note).

Why not use the hours of your life to build your own house? Use low cost high labour techniques as they did back in the dark ages - cob, stone, straw bale, etc. Modern techniques such as clay slip straw are also useful, and cheap/virtually free. Work less (or not at all) for other people, but invest your hours in yourself.

Working for someone else means the employer take the risk instead of you, but in exchange for that security you give up about a third of your life. Half if you don't count sleeping as being "your" time. Seize the day, take the risk yourself. Use your own life for your own benefit.


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## Glitch (31 Aug 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> You get a job to earn money to pay rent or buy a house. You swap many, many hours of your life for bits of paper, which are then swapped for a mortgage or rent. (It's ironic that the bits of paper are actually someone else's debt, created by a bank out of thin air, which you slave to earn, and then give back to the bank as your mortgage payment, thereby destroying said debt note).
> 
> Why not use the hours of your life to build your own house? Use low cost high labour techniques as they did back in the dark ages - cob, stone, straw bale, etc. Modern techniques such as clay slip straw are also useful, and cheap/virtually free. Work less (or not at all) for other people, but invest your hours in yourself.
> 
> Working for someone else means the employer take the risk instead of you, but in exchange for that security you give up about a third of your life. Half if you don't count sleeping as being "your" time. Seize the day, take the risk yourself. Use your own life for your own benefit.


If only the land was available.
Do you still get VAT back on new builds?


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## Glitch (31 Aug 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> I supported the sale of council housing in the belief that owner occupiers take more care of the property and the local environment. It relieves the taxpayer of subsidies required for council and social housing.
> 
> But the key to ensuring people have somewhere to live rests not on whether it is publically or privately constructed, nor whether it is rented or owned, but only that there is a sufficient quantity, of the right quality, in the right place, at the right (fair?) price.
> 
> ...


No, we definitely need affordable housing.

Higher quality will just mean the developers pass on the higher prices. 

Councils shouldn't need to buy the land and are not building for profit so should be able to build quality homes for far less than a developer.
Maybe councils should do more to provide land for 'affordable' self-build?

Whilst I love the countryside I think industrial scale farming has ruined a lot of it. I'd allow some building on green belt land.
Homes left empty for a long time (TBD) should be taxed or repossessed.

Blimey my inner left wing is coming to the surface!


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> ...
> 
> We do not need more council housing, but improved building standards and enforcement. ......


Tell that to a homeless person.
Simple fact of life - if you sell off, or stop public services it will save money, BUT somewhere down the line people who need the services will suffer the consequences.
Selling off council houses could have worked if done intelligently - money reinvested in housing for starters, prohibition on buy to let, 2nd homes, speculation etc. so that the original objective was maintained i.e to provide housing where needed.


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## Daniel2 (31 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Tell that to a homeless person.
> Simple fact of life - if you sell off, or stop public services it will save money, BUT somewhere down the line people who need the services will suffer the consequences.
> Selling off council houses could have worked if done intelligently - money reinvested in housing for starters, prohibition on buy to let, 2nd homes, speculation etc. so that the original objective was maintained i.e to provide housing where needed.



Prohibition on buy to let ?
Get real Jacob


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Prohibition on buy to let ?
> Get real Jacob


Yes it's been a disaster. Added hugely to the pressure on house prices for obvious reasons; creating a shortage but allowing profiteering. Many ex council houses are now rented with rents wildly above what they would have needed to be under council management. A big giveaway.


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## Daniel2 (31 Aug 2021)

I would agree that governmental / council investment in social housing
has been catastrophic and absolutely shameful.
However, I would consider the private property market to be quite
separate from that.


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## Glitch (31 Aug 2021)

I'd maybe ban the leasing of BTL property back to councils. Why should privateers profit?

One of the issues with rental is security of tenure. Far more secure through a council or HA.


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## Daniel2 (31 Aug 2021)

Why is the word "profit" bandied around as some kind of dirty word, when
it's derived between consenting adults ?


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> I would agree that governmental / council investment in social housing
> has been catastrophic and absolutely shameful.
> However, I would consider the private property market to be quite
> separate from that.


It isn't though.


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Why is the word "profit" bandied around as some kind of dirty word, when
> it's derived between consenting adults ?


Often one of the adults is not consenting.


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## Daniel2 (31 Aug 2021)

@Jacob , have we not been through this before ?


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> @Jacob , have we not been through this before ?


Well yes, nothing has changed!


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## Daniel2 (31 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> Well yes, nothing has changed!



If anything, it's got worse.


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## Glitch (31 Aug 2021)

Daniel2 said:


> Why is the word "profit" bandied around as some kind of dirty word, when
> it's derived between consenting adults ?



No problem with profit making in the private rental market. Let market forces do their thing.

It doesn't really have a place in public sector housing though.
God knows how much public money is spent on temporary hotel accommodation and the leasing of privately owned properties.
Maybe I'm being naive but Councils should be as self sufficient as possible and as a result provide more jobs for the local population.
My council recently took rubbish and recycling back in house. The service has improved.


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## Daniel2 (31 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> No problem with profit making in the private rental market. Let market forces do their thing.
> 
> It doesn't really have a place in public sector housing though.
> God knows how much public money is spent on temporary hotel accommodation and the leasing of privately owned properties.
> ...



That's more clear and I agree completely.
Social housing should be based on non-profit and a whole lot more of
it is needed than is being done at present.
It's the current ideology of privatising everything, where it goes wrong.


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> No problem with profit making in the private rental market. Let market forces do their thing.
> 
> It doesn't really have a place in public sector housing though.


In the real world we are all public sector and all housing is "social" housing.


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## Glitch (31 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> In the real world we are all public sector and all housing is "social" housing.


Of course Comrade


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> Of course Comrade


The old conditioned reflex kicking in!
Weird how people have been persuaded to see "social"policies as the thin end of an evil communist wedge, whereas unconstrained high rents, with inflated unearned capital gains (tax free), subsidised by housing benefits, with insecurity of tenure and homeless people on the streets, are seen as pillars of a civilised free society!
Maybe they should cut back on the benefits? 








The story of social housing - Shelter England


Find out about the rise and fall of social housing in England and join Shelter's campaign for more to be built.




england.shelter.org.uk


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## Glitch (31 Aug 2021)

Jacob said:


> The old conditioned reflex kicking in!
> Weird how people have been persuaded to see "social"policies as the thin end of an evil communist wedge, whereas unconstrained high rents, subsidised by housing benefits, with insecurity of tenure and homeless people on the streets, are seen as pillars of a civilised free society! Maybe they should cur back on the benefits?
> 
> 
> ...



Conditional reflex to a conditional ideological trope 

Read my posts Jacob. I'm all in favour of building proper council houses.

I was almost born in a shoebox in the middle of the road - well a post-war prefab anyway and then a spanking new council house in the 60's until I left home at 23 and bought a tiny terraced cottage. Mum still in her 1 bed council bungalow.

There's nothing in the Shelter article I didn't know. I agree with everything they are saying.
I thought it might back up your ideological statement that all housing is social housing, but it didn't


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> Conditional reflex to a conditional ideological trope
> 
> Read my posts Jacob. I'm all in favour of building proper council houses.
> 
> ...


All housing is social housing in that the whole of society needs housing.


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## Spectric (31 Aug 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The right to buy wasn't a bad idea per se, the bad idea was not reinvesting the money and building more.


It was a stroke of genius on behalf of that nasty old hag, once you had a debt tying you to your home then the unions lost the power to strike, your home was now at risk if you did so a means to control the working class in the day.


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## RobinBHM (31 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> It was a stroke of genius on behalf of that nasty old hag, once you had a debt tying you to your home then the unions lost the power to strike, your home was now at risk if you did so a means to control the working class in the day.


thats awfully cynical.

although I wouldnt put it past the minds of those following neo liberalism


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## Daniel2 (31 Aug 2021)

RobinBHM said:


> thats awfully cynical.
> 
> although I wouldnt put it past the minds of those following neo liberalism



It certainly sounds plausible enough.


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## RobinBHM (31 Aug 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> I supported the sale of council housing in the belief that owner occupiers take more care of the property and the local environment. It relieves the taxpayer of subsidies required for council and social housing.
> 
> But the key to ensuring people have somewhere to live rests not on whether it is publically or privately constructed, nor whether it is rented or owned, but only that there is a sufficient quantity, of the right quality, in the right place, at the right (fair?) price.
> 
> ...



theres a missing perspective in this

notably it is that the UK uses land and property as an investment, its something to make money from.

the big housebuilders need land, so they buy and sell land as an investment. they build up a portfolio. They build only at a rate that keeps demand high so prices keep going up. Its known as land banking.

Add in the fact that Quantitative Easing puts money into the investment market that goes into land and property

Private housebuilding can never solve the housing crisis.

the solution is public housebuilding and or land value tax


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## RobinBHM (31 Aug 2021)

Glitch said:


> My council recently took rubbish and recycling back in house. The service has improved



yes, contracted out services arent always best.


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## AJB Temple (31 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> It was a stroke of genius on behalf of that nasty old hag, once you had a debt tying you to your home then the unions lost the power to strike, your home was now at risk if you did so a means to control the working class in the day.



I think this is nonsense. My parents had to live in rented accommodation and after 11 years of marriage they managed to get a council house. Eventually, under the right to buy scheme, they bought their council house and worked very hard to pay off the mortgage (for example by doing cleaning jobs at a bank, on top of their day jobs). My mother is 88 and still lives in this house and is very pleased indeed that they bought it, as she has a secure paid for home and is not beholden to the council or anyone else paying rent. 

My father was in a trade union in the automotive industry in Coventry and for a while was a trades union official of some sort (I don't recall the title). He became very disenchanted with the union because he regarded them as unnecessarily belligerent to the extent of damaging employer/employee relations. He was not a subservient man at all, but even he could see that seemingly endless aggressive union action would inhibit investment. 

Most working people, irrespective of "class" do not wish to be dependent on the state, and mostly they wish to improve their own position and security. Home ownership for many was a means of doing that. Council houses in many areas are architecturally oppressive and unimaginative buildings that are significantly class divisive. I am well aware of this as I was a council house kid when I was at school and few let me forget it. 

It is also wrong to state that capital gains are purely unearned income as if this is a total windfall. This may be so in some cases, but it must be put in the context of inflation both in property, goods generally and incomes. Gains, such as they are, can only be spent in a market that usually has risen substantially - ie the purchasing power of money has also materially changed in that a pound from 1980 had far more purchasing power than a pound today. This has to be factored in to computing the real value of gains.


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Selling council houses at the market price might have been good (subject to appropriate restrictive covenants etc) if the money had been ploughed back into council housing but it was not.


AJB Temple said:


> ...
> Most working people, irrespective of "class" do not wish to be dependent on the state,.......


We ALL are dependent upon the state, with the possible exception of the odd wild man being self sufficient in the undergrowth in some neglected corner.

Capital gains by definition are unearned and have been astronomical in the housing market, far outstripping inflation. Keeping up with inflation is all very well but would anyone be happy with negative capital gains in a deflating economy?


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## Skydivermel (31 Aug 2021)

I don't think buyers of new houses know exactly what they are letting themselves in for. When you look at the materials used, (mostly lightweight) the speed at which developers build them, the very lax building control, we (from my perspective) seem to be building the slums of the future.

I recently went with my sister to view a new build, I could move the internal walls simply by leaning on them. You could hear a pin drop in the next room. The fixtures i.e. boilers, radiators, kitchen cabinets, consumer units etc were all very cheap basic tat that's put in as cheap as possible. You daren't hang a picture on a plasterboard wall for fear of it coming down.

3 to 5 years from now any new build will require a substantial investment from the owner because everything is falling to bits.

I've been in the construction industry for best part of 30 years and some of what I see horrifies me.

As for old social housing it was bullet proof and built to last, most of the social housing stock is circa 100 years old and still going strong.


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## Glitch (31 Aug 2021)

AJB Temple said:


> I think this is nonsense. My parents had to live in rented accommodation and after 11 years of marriage they managed to get a council house. Eventually, under the right to buy scheme, they bought their council house and worked very hard to pay off the mortgage (for example by doing cleaning jobs at a bank, on top of their day jobs). My mother is 88 and still lives in this house and is very pleased indeed that they bought it, as she has a secure paid for home and is not beholden to the council or anyone else paying rent.
> 
> My father was in a trade union in the automotive industry in Coventry and for a while was a trades union official of some sort (I don't recall the title). He became very disenchanted with the union because he regarded them as unnecessarily belligerent to the extent of damaging employer/employee relations. He was not a subservient man at all, but even he could see that seemingly endless aggressive union action would inhibit investment.
> 
> ...



Right to buy certainly can work for many.

My father-in-law bought his council flat for £13k (lived there since 1966). Easy walk into the City of London. At 92 he'll have plenty of money to pay for a nursing home if the need arises.
His two bed flat is lost to the housing association. He has had to pay thousands towards upkeep of the block and it still has cladding issues. Fellow HA tenants have paid nothing and get all the benefits of new windows, doors, fire safety improvements, new/repaired roof and the rubbish, shoddily installed but nice looking cladding. Lesson: void leasehold properties

A young workmate lived in a council flat close to Buckingham Palace with his parents and siblings. Bought it for £245k under RTB. Valued at £1M about 5 years ago. Remortgaged it as a Buy to Let and they moved to Luton, presumably now in a debt free mansion and getting impressive rent from their ex-council flat. Perfect AirBnB for tourists. Seems wrong to me that tenants can make a fortune and the council lose a property.

My parents worked all their lives in relatively low paid jobs. Except for a couple of years abroad and employment with accommodation they always lived in council houses. They saved money for good holidays and put a little bit aside for retirement. 

The council offered them a downsizing move from their 3 bed house to a warden assisted retirement bungalow in a nearby village. Best move they ever made. A location they could never have afforded. Any problems with the property is fixed by the council. Council redecorate every few years and they have replaced all the kitchen units. When my Dad had a stroke (a failed carotid endarterectomy) there was very little extra needed to pay towards his care costs. If anything happens to Mum the bulk of her care costs are taken care of. When she dies her nice little bungalow will be taken up by another deserving council tenant.


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## Chippyjoe (31 Aug 2021)

Spectric said:


> It was a stroke of genius on behalf of that nasty old hag, once you had a debt tying you to your home then the unions lost the power to strike, your home was now at risk if you did so a means to control the working class in the day.




Oh dear oh dear.


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## Trainee neophyte (31 Aug 2021)

The UK housing market is entirely rigged by the government, on purpose, to create false scarcity and therefore ludicrous values. Remove all planning restrictions and hey presto! you have affordable housing for all.

You would also have an economic crisis of unimaginable proportions, the end of the entire banking system and possibly fiat currency to boot. So on that basis, enjoy your insane property values which benefit the asset owners at the expense of the wage earners. 

As an example of how life could be in a different universe, Greece has a population of 11 million, and 10 million houses. There are very few restrictions on building a house anywhere you want, so most houses are valued at the build cost, or less. I have mentioned before that a 3 bedroom, 120 square metre, 20 year old house in an acre of olive trees costs €50,000. They would probably accept €40,000. The same size house to rent is around €200 to €250 a month. All because the government don't limit and restrict and forbid building houses.


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## Jacob (31 Aug 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> The UK housing market is entirely rigged by the government, on purpose, to create false scarcity and therefore ludicrous values. Remove all planning restrictions and hey presto! you have affordable housing for all.


There'd be even more chaos. Britain is nearly twice the size of Greece but about 6 times the population. Greece has 3 times as much space per capita.
The basic problem is not planning but lack of policy; government inertia and a "free" market.
Similarly France is 2.3 times UK in size with only a slightly bigger population, and houses are cheaper. More than twice the space per capita.


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## Spectric (31 Aug 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> The UK housing market is entirely rigged by the government, on purpose, to create false scarcity and therefore ludicrous values.


not sure it is the government directly but houses are treated as an investment and often sold on the basis that they will earn you money, but unless you downsize or move to a cheaper location that money is tied up until you die at which point the government takes inheritance tax. 



Trainee neophyte said:


> a 3 bedroom, 120 square metre, 20 year old house in an acre of olive trees costs €50,000


Thats about forty grand, a lot for the money when compared to here in the uk, that is the problem with a little island and being over populated so are we heading in the direction of Japan.


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## Terry - Somerset (31 Aug 2021)

Perhaps also worth noting that the average salary in Greece is less than half the UK. A crude comparison which ignores weather, culture, food, etc etc - but goes some way towards explaining differential house prices.

Planning controls inhibit development - new build tends to lag the requirement. IMHO - local communities have too little control over what happens locally vs that which is imposed.

In France and Spain (don't really know Greece) relatively uncontrolled development leads to a blight on the edge of many towns and villages where disused and decaying industrial units are an eyesore - it is obviously cheaper to build new than restore or demolish..


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## Trainee neophyte (1 Sep 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Perhaps also worth noting that the average salary in Greece is less than half the UK. A crude comparison which ignores weather, culture, food, etc etc - but goes some way towards explaining differential house prices.
> 
> Planning controls inhibit development - new build tends to lag the requirement. IMHO - local communities have too little control over what happens locally vs that which is imposed.
> 
> In France and Spain (don't really know Greece) relatively uncontrolled development leads to a blight on the edge of many towns and villages where disused and decaying industrial units are an eyesore - it is obviously cheaper to build new than restore or demolish..


Greek towns are mostly deeply ugly. There is no esthetic in the culture, and most of the old building have collapsed from constant earthquakes. The modern building technique is municipal car park as apartment block. However, it comes down to personal choice: you get to build the house _you_ want, on _your_ land. There are earthquake and insulation requirements which are suprisingly well enforced, but no planning committee deciding that the beer tastes nicer only once they have peed in it. The idea that the government can decide what windows you install, or the colour of your door, or refuse to allow you to build an extension because your house must remain as it was 200 years ago, is all anathema (greek word, by the way). At the end of the day, if you don't have control, is it your house? If you don't have the right to do what you want with your property, is it really yours? 

Of course if there are property taxes to pay you can reasonably say that you are just renting your land from the government, and they _will_ take it back if you stop paying your rent.


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## Trainee neophyte (1 Sep 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Perhaps also worth noting that the average salary in Greece is less than half the UK. A crude comparison which ignores weather, culture, food, etc etc - but goes some way towards explaining differential house prices.


I would suggest that almost one house per person is more important - supply outstrips demand in most places. Obviously there is an upper limit to prices, but if there were only 5 houses in the country, the price would be bid up to whoever could afford them. Easy to find 10 multimillionaires to drive the prices well above affordability for "normal" people.

Don't forget that rent assistance also drives house price inflation: it subsidises the private landlords and allows all rents to be increased. UK Government largesse at work again. No such thing in Greece. If the government didn't tilt the playing filed so drastically, the free market would supply demand. If only there was such a mythical beast as as free market.


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## Wayside2020 (1 Sep 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> You get a job to earn money to pay rent or buy a house. You swap many, many hours of your life for bits of paper, which are then swapped for a mortgage or rent. (It's ironic that the bits of paper are actually someone else's debt, created by a bank out of thin air, which you slave to earn, and then give back to the bank as your mortgage payment, thereby destroying said debt note).
> 
> Why not use the hours of your life to build your own house? Use low cost high labour techniques as they did back in the dark ages - cob, stone, straw bale, etc. Modern techniques such as clay slip straw are also useful, and cheap/virtually free. Work less (or not at all) for other people, but invest your hours in yourself.
> 
> Working for someone else means the employer take the risk instead of you, but in exchange for that security you give up about a third of your life. Half if you don't count sleeping as being "your" time. Seize the day, take the risk yourself. Use your own life for your own benefit.


You are sort of correct. But you still need the land to put the house on in the first place and possibly would need a mortgage.


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## Glitch (1 Sep 2021)

The U.K. does depend a lot on consumer spending. 
Low interest rates makes people borrow more.

Having an increasing lump of equity in your property makes you think you are far better off than you really are. It encourages people to borrow/spend/remortgage. 
Thinking: 'We can always downsize'

My brother-in-law has finished paying off his 'right to buy' council house (which is small but very nice) and thinks he is loaded. He has his state pension, another small pension and needs to keep working, as does my sister (part-time) at least until here state pension kicks in another 2-3 years time. She is desperate to retire. Savings and a small inheritance have gone, mostly baling out my younger niece who married a philandering, thieving gambler. The older one married a conman but he's made a few quid by selling unbelievable investments.

BiL thinks they can move to the coast and downsize to release a bit of cash (that won't last long).

Asset rich, penny poor is a common state for people to get into these days. Very little savings and insufficient pension but they've usually had a good spend up to keep the U.K. economy going.


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## baldkev (3 Sep 2021)

This has turned into a great thread



Trainee neophyte said:


> Working for someone else means the employer take the risk instead of you, but in exchange for that security you give up about a third of your life. Half if you don't count sleeping as being "your" time. Seize the day, take the risk yourself. Use your own life for your own benefit.



Im self employed. I get more than i did working for someone else, but, by the time ive done the yearly bookwork, quotes, invoicing, viewing jobs and meeting customets, finding info or ideas for the various jobs, jeeping tooling etc up to date, i am no better off. Its not even like i can really do 'what i like' as a self employed person..... whatever happens i have to earn enough to pay the mortgage, vouncil tax, insurances, phone, vehicle costs etc etc...... so it actually is an illusion, im just a busy bee earning money for the tax man 

How can you stop? We have to live somewhere and the mrs doesnt do camping 

You are totally right about the supply and demand situation driving prices, especially in certain areas, and the housing market must be the uk's biggest spend?



Glitch said:


> Asset rich, penny poor is a common state for people to get into these days. Very little savings and insufficient pension but they've usually had a good spend up to keep the U.K. economy going.



I get this. Is it worth saving up?  If property increases are generally the best way to make money, that means over time the pound in your bank doesnt keep up. For instance 20 years ago, 40k would buy a house in devon. 1 million was a colossal amount. 1 million now is a lot but not so much that you are joining the elite in barbados and owning a few properties etc.
The same 40k house is about 250k and up now. But the earnings and by extension, your hourly wage, hasnt kept up. And it would have been better to buy as much property as you could.....

Its difficult to 'get ahead' if you dont earn a good surplus over what you need. Most of us work to live, so how can we change that? Anyone got a good idea, without moving country or living in a tent?


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## Blackswanwood (3 Sep 2021)

baldkev said:


> Its difficult to 'get ahead' if you dont earn a good surplus over what you need. Most of us work to live, so how can we change that? Anyone got a good idea, without moving country or living in a tent?



It is only difficult as ”society” has got hooked on the drug of having what it wants now with easy credit. Klarna and the like springing up encouraging people to have it now and pay later is just one example.

The answer to your question in my view Kev is that people need to make the choice to save and the earlier it starts the easier it becomes. Saving needs to be a habit. Martin Lewis offers a lot of good tips on how to save money - most people would make a saving if they swapped energy supplier, downgraded their Sky TV package to what they actually watch etc etc. 

I’m not trying to make out it’s easy but for a lot of people I think it really is just down to having the discipline.


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## Jacob (3 Sep 2021)

baldkev said:


> .........
> Its difficult to 'get ahead' if you dont earn a good surplus over what you need. Most of us work to live, so how can we change that? Anyone got a good idea, without moving country or living in a tent?


History shows that the most effective way to change that is to join a union and fight for better wages and conditions. Sorry to state the obvious but most of the improvements to our working lives are directly due to union activity, even if taken up by government eventually.


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## Adam W. (3 Sep 2021)

I've become a perpetual student. 

I quite like it to be honest.


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## Jacob (3 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I've become a perpetual student.
> 
> I quite like it to be honest.


Unions, and access to free education and training for life! My 81 year old sister has just got her fine art degree - she could afford the fees but there must be millions of talented people out there who don't have the means.


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## Adam W. (3 Sep 2021)

Indeed. I always considered going to work to be an unwelcome intrusion into my personal time.

I have to do lots more DIY than a normal DIY'er and have cut the house/car maintenance bills way past the bone.


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## RobinBHM (3 Sep 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Greek towns are mostly deeply ugly.



I think its a shame the Greek government never controlled development -especially in the islands

I remember staying in Acharavi, Corfu -and a taxi driver was saying it was a tiny fishing village in the 70's and people bought land for peanuts.

the typical ribbon development has allowed it to turn into a bit of a sprawling mess.

I think Corfu is lovely, which had the potential to be an upmarket resort, but ended up as a low end Costa Del Sol chav destination.


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## RobinBHM (3 Sep 2021)

baldkev said:


> Its difficult to 'get ahead' if you dont earn a good surplus over what you need. Most of us work to live, so how can we change that? Anyone got a good idea, without moving country or living in a tent?


its very hard if you are trapped in rental -that sucks out the money that should be saved for a house deposit.

most people these days rely on bank of mum an dad or inheritance to get them that deposit.

once on the ladder, mortgage is usually less than rental cost. 


the only way out is to become totally driven to save every penny for a deposit.....which is very hard


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## Glitch (3 Sep 2021)

Blackswanwood said:


> It is only difficult as ”society” has got hooked on the drug of having what it wants now with easy credit. Klarna and the like springing up encouraging people to have it now and pay later is just one example.
> 
> The answer to your question in my view Kev is that people need to make the choice to save and the earlier it starts the easier it becomes. Saving needs to be a habit. Martin Lewis offers a lot of good tips on how to save money - most people would make a saving if they swapped energy supplier, downgraded their Sky TV package to what they actually watch etc etc.
> 
> I’m not trying to make out it’s easy but for a lot of people I think it really is just down to having the discipline.



Saving a regular amount, no matter how small is good advice. Saving into a pension is tax efficient. A stocks and shares ISA better than cash over the long term. There are life strategy funds that make investing very simple.

Building equity in your home can work as a savings strategy if you can achieve your target then pay off remaining mortgage and/or release cash to boost savings and/or pension. Unless you do move the equity is just wooden dollars that you can't spend.

The pension forum on the MoneySavingExpert.com (Martin Lewis sold it but still fronts it) is fascinating. There are other great forums on there for other subjects like saving and another for becoming debt free. Well worth a look.

Remarkable how little money people can live a comfortable early retirement on. Makes me realise how frivolous I have been in the past.


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## Blackswanwood (3 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> I've become a perpetual student.
> 
> I quite like it to be honest.


There is certainly nothing wrong with that at all - in actual fact it’s a really refreshing approach. Whether it’s through what you do at work or how you choose to spend your time otherwise I think it’s really healthy to prioritise doing something that makes us feel fulfilled.


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## clogs (3 Sep 2021)

Robin,
Corfu, Cornwall eyc and everywhere else come to think of it was a nice quaint place ONCE.....
but a few local Chaves saw easy money to made from foreigners....selling land a property at inflated prices......this is called good business...or greed depending wether ur a commie or not.....
In France for a fact theres a saying dont sell to the French when u can screw a foreigner for more money.....another reasonto leave that place......
I have always worked abroad and would never return to the UK for many reasons but the weather is just one.....
you can make a living anywhere it's just the add on's that take ur money.....
as for pensions and insurances they are all [email protected]
better to buy and sell anything than trust the "A" holes in suits....
after getting raped by the system I just bought the machinery that I wanted or could make money on....and the odd fixerupper.....lived cheap until I got married....
then things changed, still bought what I wanted but had to have decent 3 peice and curtains plus no motorcycles in the living room....hahaha.....
always been self employed and worked hard which has given me almost all the toys I want and the chance live somewhere that's warm and pleasant.....
but it's not for everyone......
My wife and I have mostley held down 2 jobs each and worked all hours planning for the future which has worked out well....luckily....
better to work for a few quid than none at all....
I was bought up to take work where u can and ur next meal just might not be there.....
U just gotta work SMART ....


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## baldkev (3 Sep 2021)

Some great replies above 



Blackswanwood said:


> most people would make a saving if they swapped energy supplier, downgraded their Sky TV package to what they actually watch etc etc.



Yep, i do shop around to keep costs down. I avoid sky etc, we have netflix though.
In the last 20 years we also have been converted to the digital age, phones, tablets, smart tv and more things to buy than ever before ( including tools ). 

My bad habit is tools. 

Mind you, it used to be strippers and fast cars, so i must be getting better with my money


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## Daniel2 (3 Sep 2021)

baldkev said:


> Snip .....
> 
> Mind you, it used to be strippers and fast cars, so i must be getting better with my money



Nah, you're just getting older.


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## baldkev (3 Sep 2021)

Now ive got a mortgage and kids, i cant afford fast cars or strippers 

I was of course helping the economy......


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## Blackswanwood (3 Sep 2021)

baldkev said:


> Now ive got a mortgage and kids, i cant afford fast cars or strippers
> 
> I was of course helping the economy......


Reminds me of the George Best “Where did it all go wrong quote”


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## baldkev (3 Sep 2021)

i just looked for it, found these quotes instead:


In 1969 I gave up women and alcohol – it was the worst 20 minutes of my life.
* * *
I once said Gazza’s IQ was less than his shirt number and he asked me: “What’s an IQ?”




The beetles were great at being funny too.... in an interview they asked the beetles if ringo was the best drummer in the world, one of them replied
'ringo isnt even the best drummer in the beetles'


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## Trainee neophyte (3 Sep 2021)

It's a fine quote, but lots of people have used it. I just don't know who was first.


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