# How old is my backsaw?



## pedder (26 Mar 2008)

(I know, this thread would work better with pictures, but I can't take any at this moment. )

I got an old Tyzack tenon saw (14 inch) today. It has become a habit of me, to buy english saws and take their backs/splines and screws and add a new handle and sometime a blade. But this one isn't the usual 1970s Spear & Jackson but a W. Tyzack Sons & Turner with split nuts, a brass back with elephant / nonpareil logo and a handle with a beautiful lambs tongue. Is there any webside like disstonianinstitute for english backsaws? Any idea how old this saw is? 

Cheers 
Pedder


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## Philly (26 Mar 2008)

Pedder
"Hand Saw Makers of Britain" says...

Tyzack Wm. Sons and Turner
Sheffield 1867-1990
Nonparieil and Elephant mark.
Ltd by 1906


So between 1879 and 1906, if that helps?
Philly


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## pedder (26 Mar 2008)

Philly":u70xb806 said:


> Pedder
> 
> Nonpareil and Elephant mark.
> Ltd by 1906



Hi Philly, 

Do I read this correct? My saw is 100+ years old? 8) Or is it between 1906 and 1990? :roll: 

Cheers Pedder


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## MarcW (26 Mar 2008)

Oh Pedder,

No picture, no saw, no value, no gloat, no... :lol:

... no =P~

Come on, give us picture!


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## pedder (26 Mar 2008)

Sorry Marc, 

at this moment only the picture from the 'bay.  Maybe later more. 

BTW, I'm pretty sure they used Nonpareil + Elephant after 1906. Would be interesting when they stopped using split nuts.

Cheers Pedder


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## Jake (26 Mar 2008)

Doesn't that mean it became a limited co by 1906?

That handle looks pretty early to me though.


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## MarcW (26 Mar 2008)

Cool,

Definitely it doesn't look to be 1990... :lol:


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## MrJay (26 Mar 2008)

I'm fast coming to the conclusion that saw dating should be taken with a pinch of salt. I've a similar offering (below) that a previous owner marked 1907. Obvious differences between mine and yours would be a medallion and slightly more ornate chamfer along the top edge (only slightly, it might just not be clear from your picture but yours looks to be a clean cut all the way across, mine has a bit). Other than that yours looks very familiar, the brass back especially; I've later back saws from Tyzack that have a more decorative back. I couldn't tell you how those things relate to the age of your saw. I can tell you that mine is the nicest tenon/carcase saw I've had the pleasure of using.





I've a few other saws by Tyzack. The big cross cut saw, second from the left, I am utterly unsure of the age - somewhere between 1870 and 1970 I reckon. I've a small, open handled back saw which shares the same inscription and style of back to yours but with screw heads rather than split nuts and the afore mentioned other tenon saw, a 120, which is inscribed Tyzack Turner & Sons Ltd and has a much more modern looking handle with a crude lambs tongue and modernist angular look about it. I'd guess 40s-50s-60s, again without split nuts.

clicky


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## Harbo (26 Mar 2008)

Here's a couple of Tyzacks (badged Frederick Willey, Leeds) that belonged to my Grandfather - I reckon they are early 1900's?:












Rod[/img]


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## Martin Cash (26 Mar 2008)

I can't add much to the discussion on backsaws by Tyzack, but I do have a very nice crosscut Nonpariel with the elephant logo that would date from maybe the 1950's if that helps.
On a different tack I have tried to find some information on another English saw that I have which is a 16 inch backsaw by Abbeydale of Sheffield.
I shot a query off to Alice Frampton but she was unaware of the make.
Has anyone any info on this maker. Sorry I don't have a photo at the moment, I will post one tonight if I can figure out how to.
Regards
MC


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## Joe (26 Mar 2008)

There is an interesting history on the Tyzack family, written by Dan Tyzack, here. Apparently the Abbeydale brand was Tyzack's "budget" line.

Joel


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## Martin Cash (27 Mar 2008)

Here is a pic of the said Abbeydale saw - the poor cousin of the Tyzacks.
[/img]http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=70053&d=1206603362

Regards
MC


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## Martin Cash (27 Mar 2008)

Grrrr! how does one post an image here???

MC


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## Smudger (27 Mar 2008)

Here it is:





Put the photo into Photobucket (www.photobucket.com) and then copy and paste the IMG address provided.

The tag looks like this:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f338/ ... aleSaw.jpg

with



at the end.


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## Martin Cash (27 Mar 2008)

Thanks Dick.
Bear with me this is a practice run:





Jeez.... I'll try again later!
MC


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## Smudger (27 Mar 2008)

You have to upload the picture to a hosting site.


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## bugbear (27 Mar 2008)

Martin Cash":q2zdjm16 said:


> Here is a pic of the said Abbeydale saw - the poor cousin of the Tyzacks.
> [/img]http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=70053&d=1206603362
> 
> Regards
> MC



Wow! How did you take the photo of the name - very clear!

Additional; I like Tyzack saws, and have several, some of which are pictured here:

http://galootcentral.com/index.php?opti ... s&album=50

(coppermine link - liable to rot)

BugBear


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## Admiral (27 Mar 2008)

I found an open handle version on this side of the pond, split nuts but no elephant logo, and mine dated about 1860 according to a fellow at a tool collecting club who was the resident saw expert. He also advised that split nuts were not used much after 1880, so I'd say your saw is likely somewhere around 1870-1880.


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## pedder (27 Mar 2008)

Admiral":enexlc93 said:


> I found an open handle version on this side of the pond, split nuts but no elephant logo, and mine dated about 1860 according to a fellow at a tool collecting club who was the resident saw expert. He also advised that split nuts were not used much after 1880, so I'd say your saw is likely somewhere around 1870-1880.



In this case I will clean it softly, sharpen it and use very carefully. :lol: 

Cheers Pedder


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## bugbear (27 Mar 2008)

Admiral":od0x32ok said:


> ... He also advised that split nuts were not used much after 1880



If that's the case, old saws are very common over here 

BugBear (with many split nut saws)


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## MrJay (27 Mar 2008)

Like I said. Saw dating. Salt.


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## lurker (3 Apr 2008)

I have tyzacks same as those pictured, they were my Dads and I guess he bought them new in the 50's. I doubt yours are very much older.

I have lots of other older makes too, but the tyzaks are the ones I use - no reason other than sentimental.

Assuming you want to check for a decent saw, easiest way is to run a micrometer over the blade.
The newer they are them more likely the steel is just a flat sheet rather than a properly made saw.
Can anyone confirm this or am I talking c**p as usual??


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## lurker (3 Apr 2008)

Pedder,

Does your "expert " want to buy a very rare pre 1880 (by his criteria) back saw I have, with an original plastic handle. 8)


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## pedder (3 Apr 2008)

lurker":2gcb639a said:


> Does your "expert " want to buy a very rare pre 1880 (by his criteria) back saw I have, with an original plastic handle. 8)



My expert? :-s 



lurker":2gcb639a said:


> Assuming you want to check for a decent saw, easiest way is to run a micrometer over the blade.
> The newer they are them more likely the steel is just a flat sheet rather than a properly made saw.



Please tell me more about that. (Allthough i don't own a micrometer.) What else than a flate sheet of stell shall a properly sawblade be? Tapered back on a back saw? :-k Never heard of, but that don't mean much :lol: 

Cheers Pedder


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## bugbear (4 Apr 2008)

lurker":13ljf9f2 said:


> Pedder,
> 
> Does your "expert " want to buy a very rare pre 1880 (by his criteria) back saw I have, with an original plastic handle. 8)



(pssst; that was "admiral", not "pedder")

BugBear


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## bugbear (4 Apr 2008)

pedder":23qpvbwi said:


> lurker":23qpvbwi said:
> 
> 
> > Assuming you want to check for a decent saw, easiest way is to run a micrometer over the blade.
> ...



The measurement thing would only apply to "hand saws" (as opposed to backsaws).

You're looking for tapered grinding.

For further info, try reading "HOW A DISSTON HAND SAW IS MADE" here:

http://www.toolemera.com/Manufacturers/ ... ols.6.html

BugBear


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## pedder (4 Apr 2008)

bugbear":2juy38s7 said:


> The measurement thing would only apply to "hand saws" (as opposed to backsaws).



BB, thanks for clarification.


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## Jake (4 Apr 2008)

Admiral's expert based his dating on the split nuts - plastic handle and split nuts is an unusual combo.


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## lurker (4 Apr 2008)

Well seems I had a few senior moments yesterday

Mixed me Pedders with me Admirals

And started waffling on about handsaws when everyone else was discussing backsaws. :roll: 

I DO have a plastc handled backsaw with split nuts though :lol: 
I bought it at a boot sale specifically for the nuts.
Its left whole at the moment as I am planning to practice sharpening with it.


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## Racers (4 Apr 2008)

Hi, Lurker



> Its left whole at the moment as I am planning to practice sharpening with it.



It would be easer with a file :wink: 

Pete


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## Jake (4 Apr 2008)

lurker":34aqc2xd said:


> I DO have a plastc handled backsaw with split nuts though :lol:
> I bought it at a boot sale specifically for the nuts.



How odd!


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## Peter Evans (18 Aug 2008)

I would love to see a picture of a plastic handled backsaw with split nuts!. Disston introduced the domed screws in 1876 and whilst the UK was slow to adopt them, I would think most makers were using them by 1900. That slowness probably accounts for the Disston price premium in the early 20th century over British saws. 

Of course probably millions of saws were made with split nuts over the 150 years before 1900 - hence we see them all the time, even in the colonies. 

Some modern makers use non-removable rivets, perhaps some of those look like split nuts?

Split nuts have made a comeback with modern high quality makers - nostalgia?


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## kenneth cooke (21 Aug 2008)

Harbo":3n5vc53m said:


> Here's a couple of Tyzacks (badged Frederick Willey, Leeds) that belonged to my Grandfather - I reckon they are early 1900's?:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a Frederick Willey, Leeds tenon saw which belonged to my late uncle who was a joiner. I had it sharpened by City Tools in Leeds and it is superb. I also have a Tyzack tenon saw which has also been sharpened by them. I believe they are as good as it gets unless you pay out the considerable amount required for LN saws which I must say, I have and they are astonishing


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## Peter Evans (22 Aug 2008)

That is an interesting sharpening job on the Willey backsaw, I guess users have run the mill file up to the bevel, but not to the end of the saw blade. At least you know how much of the saw has been used, and you know when you have run the saw too far into the wood - the saw jambs in the cut.


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## bugbear (22 Aug 2008)

Peter Evans":1yiie8lb said:


> That is an interesting sharpening job on the Willey backsaw



Yes - it is indeed. Getting those teeth even and lined up would be quite an exercise now 

BugBear


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## Ray Gardiner (23 Aug 2008)

Hi Pedder, 

Did you ever get around to taking any pictures of that saw? I have scanned
this thread and can't see any pics. (maybe I missed it :roll: ) 

Regards
Ray


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## pedder (31 Aug 2008)

Hi Ray, sorry for being late. I made two pictures, the last ones in this blogentry: http://pedder-altedamenauskiel.blogspot ... -ende.html 
Still I don't know how much I'll do on this saw. Didn't even sharpen the teeth. :wink: 

Cheers Pedder


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## MIGNAL (31 Aug 2008)

bugbear":3a6w9yt2 said:


> Peter Evans":3a6w9yt2 said:
> 
> 
> > That is an interesting sharpening job on the Willey backsaw
> ...



I do believe the very first saw (15 tpi) that I sharpened turned out much better than that. I think I'll give City Tools a miss.


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## Harbo (31 Aug 2008)

Mignal - a bit of confusion here - the photos are of my saw with teeth untouched - nothing to do with City Tools.

The saw as actually got no teeth at all now as I am in the process of re cutting them.

Rod


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## MIGNAL (1 Sep 2008)

Ooops!! My apologies to Kenneth Cooke and to City Tools of course.


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## Vultz (28 Apr 2011)

Martin Cash said:


> Thanks Dick.
> Bear with me this is a practice run:
> ...
> 
> ...



Hi All,

I know this post is getting on a bit so apologies in advance for dredging it up again. I've been doing some research online over the last few days to try and find information on refurbishing these type of saws. I picked up a Abbeydale dovetail saw at a craft market over the Easter weekend and am interested in getting the blade in working condition and refinishing the handle. Can anyone advise where I can find information on how to remove the bolts that attach the handle to the blade? Like in Martin Cash's image, the saw is attached with some fasterners that don't have a slot on either side and i'm not keen to start forcibly removing them unless presented with no other options. All my searches to date have not lead me to how to remove these type of screws/bolts.

Appreciate any advice that can be provided.

Thank you

P.S. can't reference the image in Martin's quote, so you'll need to refer to the bottom of the first page of the thread to see what i mean.


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## Alf (28 Apr 2011)

Welcome to the forum, Vultz. Sounds like you have the push together rivet variety of saw handle fastening. A money-saver on the cheaper models of saws, and a total pain in the proverbial for the saw nut now. Never designed to be taken apart again, and the only way to remove them risks damaging the handle. If you can get 'em off cleanly, you'll have to assume you'll probably need to replace them, I'm afraid.


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## Vultz (29 Apr 2011)

Thanks for the quick response. Is it safe to assume then that I would need to drill them out or do something similar to get them off? I want to avoid damaging the handle if I can.


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## Alf (29 Apr 2011)

Yeah, drilling them out is your best bet. Failing that, if you're careful - and they're not too obstinate - I've found pincers are the bet for pulling them out. But the odds of damaging the handle are obviously pretty high.


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## bosshogg (29 Apr 2011)

I find that placing your cursor where you want the pic to be and clicking on the button at the top of the full editor works without any fuss, perhaps I'm missing something here?
...bosshogg #-o


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## Vultz (29 Apr 2011)

Ok, shall give it a go with the pincers and the drill.

Hi bosshog, it may be because my account is newly created. It said something along the lines of not having permission yet to link.


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## Vultz (1 May 2011)

Ended up resorting to a cutoff wheel on my Dremel. Damaged the handle a little but has given free access to the saw blade to clean it up. Thanks for the advice


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