# Finishing furniture backs



## Woodypk (31 Jan 2021)

Hi Guys,

I'd just like to hear your opinions on the boxing in options of mid - higher end furniture, namely the back face which is sat up against a wall on items such as TV stands/cabinets, media unit, drawer units etc.

Most cheap(ish) furniture I've made for various room in my house, such as chest of drawers and wardrobes that I'd always planned to be painted, had been finished in hardwood ply, which I think looks fine once painted (especially when you'll never see it as it's up against a wall).

I've also bought furniture in the past which has flimsy hardboard backing and some higher end stuff which had no back at all. Obviously the no back at all option isn't suitable for certain furniture such as a chest of drawers for example.

The reason I ask is because I want to have a go at making some higher end stuff for some friends who hope to have their house renovation completed by the summer. They told me they love the look of darker woods such as walnut and dark stained oak and they've agreed to cover the cost of materials + a bit as a thankyou. I thought this might be a good way to complete a few more projects without having to pay from my own pocket for the materials - since I'm a hobbyist and this isn't my method of generating income, material costs are a big thing for me.

So what would you do?

I'm thinking a Walnut bedroom furniture set - Chest of Drawers, bedside tables, maybe a wardrobe... and for downstairs I'm thinking a TV unit and perhaps a bookcase or some sort of shelving unit, maybe in oak.

How would you finish the backs of these? Is solid wood of the same species/thickness/finish the only way to go?

Tom.


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## thetyreman (31 Jan 2021)

I would say no to this, just making one piece of furniture is hard enough, making a set would be ridiculously time consuming and walnut is mega expensive, you should tell them it'll cost this much and stick to it, I think you should never agree to work for free, your time is worth more than that, even for a friend.


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## Woodypk (31 Jan 2021)

Hi tyreman,

While in some circumstances, I'd agree with you, in this case I don't believe I'm at any sort of loss.

The material costs for this projects are zero because they're already covered and my time is not charged at any sort of rate because this isn't a business for me right now. I'm more interested in getting the experience as well and ulimately, I do these jobs because I find them fun.

I've made smaller pieces from oak, walnut, mahogany and other expensive woods but just not on this physical scale - not from premium hardwoods anyway...

It might be worth mentioning, I design all my projects on CAD first before I make them. When starting out, I used to find myself making unnecessary mistakes due to poor planning, so I know I can have a cut list made one the design is finalised and agreed.

tyreman, do you have any thoughts on what I was asking with the backs of the units? 

Tom


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## dzj (31 Jan 2021)

Woodypk said:


> How would you finish the backs of these? Is solid wood of the same species/thickness/finish the only way to go?
> 
> Tom.



Traditionally, visible backs were shiplapped or T&G from solid stock. Frame and panel is also sometimes used. Veneering common plywood with a more expensive species is also not unheard of. 
If the backs aren't visible, then secondary wood or ply is adequate.


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## Doug B (31 Jan 2021)

Just go for veneered ply or MDF to match the timber you end up using, from the sounds of things you’ve got enough on making the furniture let alone making up solid panels which are a lot more prone to movement.
I‘d add that I would cost out your materials & add a good percentage for possible unfit timber or any mistakes you may make otherwise it won’t be just your time you’re giving for free. I would also want this money up front as friends have a habit of being slow at putting their hands in their pocket even when they are getting a favour done for them.


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## Droogs (31 Jan 2021)

Traditionally the internal structure and the back of furniture pieces is made from what is usually called "deal". This is usually low cost hardwoods poplar but can also be softwood such as pine. Normally you would T&G narrow boards and use them to do the back cover as they will not be seen. It is only a post modrn affectation to have high end wood showing on all faces.

edit dzj must be a faster typist than me lol


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## thetyreman (31 Jan 2021)

I'd use tongue and groove or shiplap for the backs, frame and panel is good for stability if it's solid wood but very time consuming if done using traditional joinery methods and hand cut joinery.

Nothing wrong with plywood, it's just finding the right colour that matches your walnut, I would consider buying high quality veneer ideally bookmatched and gluing that to some ply for the backs, you'll probably need to buy a lot more than you think so bear that in mind, aim for at least 20% more than you actually need.


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## doctor Bob (31 Jan 2021)

We tend to use veneered MDF or veneered ply, rebated in with a 50mm gap behind to allow for plugs and sockets,on free standing furniture


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## Woodypk (31 Jan 2021)

Thanks for the reply guys. It's massively appreciated.

So it sounds like a veneer is the way to go. 

Would you not recommend creating my own veneer and gluing it to the ply myself? Or am I really making more work than is necessary?


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## Droogs (31 Jan 2021)

A lot of work if you don't do this regularly and have the needed kit. better to just by some mdf faced with the veneer you want. have a look *here *to see what is possible


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## Jacob (31 Jan 2021)

Almost anything functional will do as it's mostly out of sight.
A lot of traditional stuff even "high end" may have just plain boards at the back, maybe planed on the internal face only, or both or neither, or butted, T&G, half lapped etc.
Next level of poshness would be framed panels.
Natural tendency would be to use inferior quality materials compared to the visible front. Sometimes very inferior with massive knots, or just very thin.


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## Hornbeam (31 Jan 2021)

I think the quality of the backs, reflects the overall quality of the piece but also consider whether the back is ever seen. So on a chest of drawere, the back is always hidden by the drawere but a wardrobe/cupboard you will see the back when you open the doors
So in order of quality, I would probable say

Cheap plywood grooved/rebated into the sides
Veneered plywood grooved/rebated into the sides
Veneered plywood panels in a separate frame. The frame would be mortice and tennoned but could be dominoed. Advantage of veneered panels is they can be glued in all round as you dont really have to consider timber movement
Cedar of Lebanon panels in a separate frame ( particularly for clothing storage). You could also use solid panels of the same wood as the rest of the piece
Just remember that quality takes time and costs money . What level are you aiming for and what level does you client appreciate/expect
Also consider that TV /electrical items can create quite a bit of heat so if in a semi enclosed cabinet you need to consider wood drying movement and allowing the heat out


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## TheTiddles (31 Jan 2021)

One of the ways of telling a genuine old piece is what got used for backs, drawer bottoms etc. Modern pieces are often made to a far higher standard, some beautiful pieces have packing crates nailed on the back, dovetail cuts that extend miles past the scribe line that are then covered in lining paper etc...

make it how you are happy with it, that’s a luxury the people who have to make money on it don’t have, enjoy that.

Aidan


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## Jacob (31 Jan 2021)

Hornbeam said:


> I think the quality of the backs, reflects the overall quality of the piece ....


I think the quality of the backs reflect only the quality of the backs.


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## Ttrees (1 Feb 2021)

Might be a bit off topic, as WoodyPK is seemingly OK with modern day slavery,
regarding HIS/HER own time,effort, and risking the WoodyPK name,
as the projects intended to be a learning experience for someone else who doesn't appear to place any or much value on workmanship,
If they truly are that mean, I would be wanting to know what they expect in regards to the back of the piece(s)
One could assume they are clueless, or you have came across that you can do it in your factory easily in a day.


Is it up to us to keep doing it the traditional way for authenticity though?

I would think the average buyer of handmade furniture is always right, and that they would expect the highest standard in freestanding peices, otherwise why not go to Ikea/OFL.

You could argue its a nod to tradition, but with the advancement of technology,
has the goal posts not moved? 

One could counter argue with this though, and suggest old methods are still valid as environmental impact needs to be considered nowadays.

What say ye, about this 
Thanks
Tom


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## Hornbeam (1 Feb 2021)

I totally agree with Aidan that many very high quality pieces had very crude backs etc. 
The question is where do you stop. Should you only focus on the visible aspect of the piece when everything is closed. Why do drawers with fine London pattern exude quality when structurally the are much poorer than coarser ones. Drawer bottoms with drawer slips and cedar bottoms easier to do wider drawer sides and a ply base as they are never seen
My point is see what the client wants/understands and then make accordingly


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## Jacob (1 Feb 2021)

Hornbeam said:


> I totally agree with Aidan that many very high quality pieces had very crude backs etc.
> The question is where do you stop. Should you only focus on the visible aspect of the piece when everything is closed. Why do drawers with fine London pattern exude quality when structurally the are much poorer than coarser ones. Drawer bottoms with drawer slips and cedar bottoms easier to do wider drawer sides and a ply base as they are never seen
> My point is see what the client wants/understands and then make accordingly


So called London Pattern DTs can be done crudely too. There's nothing special about them they are the easiest to do as you can start them from just one saw kerf. And for all normal drawer purposes they are strong enough. Whether or not they are finely done is another thing altogether.
One reason for "fine" detailing with thin drawer sides etc is that it saves on material. You can't join a 8mm thick drawer bottom to a 6mm thick side with nails but you can if you taper the board edge and put it in a slot. It's the cheapest way to do it and saves material. 
A lot of posh stuff has every corner cut with all the emphasis being on what you see up front.


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## Woody2Shoes (1 Feb 2021)

Another option would be simply to stain ply or poplar/pine boards to match the 'show' wood. There are loads of 'walnut' stain options for example. Even Doucette & Wolf use poplar or similar as a 'secondary' wood. https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCjatELwdjLj3_03Q80iTc_g


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## Jacob (1 Feb 2021)

Forgot to say - backs may need to be loose fitting, pinned lightly or in slots etc. to allow for movement.
If strongly constructed and solidly joined at the back, then movement in the structure might show at the front instead, and you could get sticking drawers and doors.


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## TheTiddles (1 Feb 2021)

Jacob said:


> Forgot to say - backs may need to be loose fitting, pinned lightly or in slots etc. to allow for movement.
> If strongly constructed and solidly joined at the back, then movement in the structure might show at the front instead, and you could get sticking drawers and doors.


Not if you use veneered MDF


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## Sean33 (1 Feb 2021)

Woodypk said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'd just like to hear your opinions on the boxing in options of mid - higher end furniture, namely the back face which is sat up against a wall on items such as TV stands/cabinets, media unit, drawer units etc.
> 
> ...


Hi there, if it was me and it was for a paying customer i would use the same timber as main construction, otherwise veneered MDF or Ply
hope this helps


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## Woodypk (2 Feb 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Might be a bit off topic, as WoodyPK is seemingly OK with modern day slavery,
> regarding HIS/HER own time,effort, and risking the WoodyPK name,
> as the projects intended to be a learning experience for someone else who doesn't appear to place any or much value on workmanship,
> If they truly are that mean, I would be wanting to know what they expect in regards to the back of the piece(s)
> ...



Ttrees, I like your reply, It sounds like something I'd say if I were you and you were me. Alas... We are not. 

But tell me, why does and artist put so much effort, days of their time, countless hours into a piece of art that may ultimately mean diddly to all but themselves?

I'm not saying I'm an artist. About as far from one in fact...

But just because you could charge someone £1000s for a one-off furniture set doesn't mean you have to.

I'm an amateur, a hobbyist. I enjoy making things and If I can make something half decent, I will try. Much for the enjoyment of doing something that I really like to do if not for any other reason. If someone looked at some furniture I built and told me "Jeeze, you undercharged for that" then I would silently give myself a pat on the back and think I'd done a good job.

I'm relatively new to furniture making so I just wanted to know what was the best way around finishing off furniture at the back where you are unlikely to spend much, if any time looking at.

From what I've read, a glued frame, rebated in with a floating panel seems to be the way to go. I think this will look good too and finish it off nicely.

Does anyone have a supplier for veneered MDF/Ply they'd be happy to recommend.

Thanks again for the replies.


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## Droogs (2 Feb 2021)

as per my earlier post it contains a link to a supplier with what I think is the biggest choice of veneer finishes in the uk


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## Woodypk (2 Feb 2021)

Thanks Droogs, I did look at that yesterday. I don't recall it having pricings displayed. I'll send them a message and see if they can get back to me with some prices for what I'm looking for.


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## TheTiddles (2 Feb 2021)

The Shakers had one answer to the “why” question, George Mallory had another, if you truly don’t understand why anyone takes pride in their work, I actually feel quite sorry for you, but then I spend my life surrounded by people that think and live that way.

As for veneered board, there are many suppliers, what are you after? A lovely job would be to veneer it in the same material as the rest of the cabinet, so buy a substrate like MRMDF and use the scrappier of your veneers you’ve not used on your show faces, or cedar if you like the smell.

Aidan


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## Woodypk (2 Feb 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> The Shakers had one answer to the “why” question, George Mallory had another, if you truly don’t understand why anyone takes pride in their work, I actually feel quite sorry for you, but then I spend my life surrounded by people that think and live that way.
> 
> As for veneered board, there are many suppliers, what are you after? A lovely job would be to veneer it in the same material as the rest of the cabinet, so buy a substrate like MRMDF and use the scrappier of your veneers you’ve not used on your show faces, or cedar if you like the smell.
> 
> Aidan




That is my point exactly, Aidan. Why would I go to these lengths? Trying to create a quality product for someone with minimal compensation...

The answer is because I can (or I will do my best to try) and because I want to. Because I enjoy making things.

I think I was looking down the lines of purchasing a veneered MDF (or ply?) board rather than veneering it myself.

Tom


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## TheTiddles (2 Feb 2021)

I think you didn’t quite make your point when you expressed it as a question!
Anyway, crack on and do it to your way and enjoy the process.

Veneered MDF is more common and available than ply, especially with both sides veneered, depending on what you want it’s available from almost all timber merchants to requiring a custom made to order panel from a handful of suppliers in the uk

Aidan


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## Woodypk (2 Feb 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> I think you didn’t quite make your point when you expressed it as a question!



Aidan, I thought my point was made just by asking the question. I didn't think I would need to provide the answer to a question I thought was so obvious...

It doesn't matter anyway. If I choose to spend hours making something for someone else who "doesn't appear to place any or much value on workmanship". That's fine. Because I do and I will remember the time I made that piece. And as long as it means something to me, that's enough for me.

Back to the job at hand....

I think I'll go with a veneered MDF in a frame and I'll do some digging with some places near me. 

Thanks guys.


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## Ttrees (2 Feb 2021)

Hello again,
I hope I didn't give you an impression that this project was a waste of your time. 
Just a bit of slavery is all.
I have never sold anything, or the likes, so have no input really.
As a hobbyist, this is art as far as I'm concerned.

Whatever you choose since this project is for your pro folio ONLY...
and your pro folio may get more attention that you might think.
Make it well like it was going in your house, (pretend you have the wealth of the clientele you would aspire to sell to)
Bad news travels faster and further than good news.
Maybe not as much with furniture as with say guitars, but you never know.
You gotta be happy with it.

Good luck and more power to your elbow!
Tom


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## Woodypk (2 Feb 2021)

Thanks, Tom.

It made for an interesting post *edit thread.

Cheers.
Also Tom


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