# Digging Bar Tips



## donkeyoaty (23 Aug 2013)

Just wondering if anyone can give me any info on the difference between/advantages of/disadvantages of/etc a *pencil point* or *diamond point* on a digging bar, and the same for shaft types *hexagonal*, *cylindrical* or *half-round*. I'm purchasing one to help me move large logs/uproot stumps/etc, and as lever for large objects. Not sure which I should be going with.

Also, though not strictly a woodwork enquiry -- does anyone know if one of these would be suitable to break through _thin_ concrete, rock or asphalt? If so, how would I go about this? Net is dreadfully lacking on info on these topics.

Thanks in advance for any help.


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## marcros (23 Aug 2013)

i bought a long wrecking bar- must be about 5 ft. i have used it for breaking up concrete- typically under old slabs, so not that thick, helping to rip out a lleylandi hedge and for post hole digging. also moving large rocks for a rockery and lifting 3ft x 2ft slabs. it has a point one end and a chisel the other. And a round shaft. I cant vouch for any others but this one has been invaluable. the chisel poing was useful for chopping through tree roots, and for wedging between things like paving slabs to separate them. Wherever you need to use it as a lever, i would use the chisel end. the point is less important, but i would use that to increase the point load, so breaking into concrete. For that, i have generally used the chisel point, started at an edge and propagated a crack across. 

I would get as long a one as you can- it makes a huge difference with trees. For instance, I could work mine underneath the lleylandi ones and make a see saw to lift them a bit. then work out where was still clinging on, and use the chisel poing to hack through and try again. sometimes you can be lucky and get a saw to the root. When you cant get any further, driving the thing in vertically and rocking the bar and stump forwards and back a bit worked. etc etc.

Also handy when digging hard ground to help loosen thing up, or where there is hardcore/debris and not just soil. hard going with a spade when you keep hitting stones.

I bought mine half way through a project, and wish that i had bought it at the start.


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## paulm (23 Aug 2013)

As Marcros says, invaluable for a whole host of things including your own planned uses. Mine has a point at one end and chisel at the other too which seems like a good combination for most purposes. I would guess the diameter of the bar is more important than the shape, as that and the length determine how much leverage you can get with it, round seems fine to me, maybe hexagonal gives more purchase or helps tell where the chisel tip is in use if you can't see it, but I could be making that up !

Cheers, Paul


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## donkeyoaty (23 Aug 2013)

Thanks so much both, that's really helpful advice. 

Would love to hear more from anyone else passing through - 

Also: If I have the money to affordably buy both the chisel edge and point bars, do you think that would be worthwhile? Does one have an advantage over the other when breaking concrete, for example?

Thanks again.


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## marcros (23 Aug 2013)

i wouldnt bother with both- get a double ended one.


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## Sailormantom (23 Aug 2013)

Hi, I do conservation volunteering (repairing fences, gateposts and the like) and we use these bars extensively. Don't know any brand names but the ones I have used come in two distinct stiles. One is about 1in thick, is 5ft long and has a point at one end and a chisel formed at the other. This is great for breaking into the ground or any form of levering. The other is longer but thinner and has a small spade like blade at one end and a round flat pommel at the other - perfect for cutting through roots and tamping soil back in post holes but not man enough for heavy levering as it is prone to bending.

From what you first posted you wanted it for I would suggest buying the former type.

Cheers, Tom


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## donkeyoaty (23 Aug 2013)

Thanks marcros, will follow your advice there.

Thoughts on a bent chisel edge?! As usual, manufacturers give many types to choose from and little to no information on what the difference is between them! I gather from the name the chisel must be bent (similar to the spoon chisel used by some sculpters?), but what is the advantage of this? Simply to provide an in-built fulcrum, or other? For an inbuilt fulcrum, couldn't you just invest in a contoured bar? Then again, I suppose that's difficult to get hold of at the size and strength of the large crowbar.

Attaching a picture to clarify the one I mean!







Cheers again.


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## donkeyoaty (23 Aug 2013)

Thanks Tom. I'm intrigued by the second bar you describe; sounds like a hybrid between bent chisel crowbar and posthole digging bar, which I wasn't aware existed - I'd love to know where you found it (though I suppose if it was provided by the volunteer organisation, you might as well have no idea).


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## kostello (23 Aug 2013)

http://www.screwfix.com/p/roughneck-17l ... tAod4GQAag


I've got one of these.

Works well but the bar does bend when trying to move a full skip


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## donkeyoaty (23 Aug 2013)

Thanks kostello - yes, I thought the posthole digging bar might be too narrow for heavy duty lifting. Nice to know I had that right.


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## Peter T (23 Aug 2013)

kostello":2bozk6p2 said:


> http://www.screwfix.com/p/roughneck-17lb-post-hole-digger/62496?kpid=62496&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&gclid=CP_chZ7lk7kCFTLMtAod4GQAag
> 
> 
> I've got one of these.
> ...



+1 for this.

I've been using mine to help dig concrete fence post holes. Very useful.

Useful for breaking up solidified bags of cement left by builders!!


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## Cottonwood (23 Aug 2013)

I'd go for a dual purpose one-I use a smallish (3 foot) bar, chisel one end point the other. It is fantastic to start post holes (if your driving posts in afterwards with a maul) it lines them up in the hole position really well. I just push the bar in, rotate it , push in deeper, rotate it again until there is a long tapered hole around 12 to 18 inches deep. 
I also use it to finish opening awkward firewood logs, also to disentangle logs that ocasionally get stuck up on my splitting machine. Mine isnt big or heavy enough to smash concrete, but I have used it to move extremely heavy and bulky items on pallets around my shop.


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## dickm (23 Aug 2013)

Agree with advice to go for biggest one you can easily handle, but can't really see the point in having more than one! You'll tire out quickly enough with one . 

An odd sidelight on this - in England (or certainly on the Welsh border) this sort of tool was always called a crowbar, and I spent many hours as a lad using one to make holes into which to drive fence posts. But up here in North East Scotland, it's called a pinchbar. Anyone know why?

And if you really don't want to tire of breaking concrete, get a Kango!


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## marcros (23 Aug 2013)

I always thought a crowbar was about 2 ft long and curved one end. Also known as a nail bar I think (around here).


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## Lons (23 Aug 2013)

I have a couple but only 1 in regular use.
It is around 5ft long 30mm thick hexagonal, with a point at one end and shaft bent at the other to a chisel end. Very heavy but invaluable. I was gifted it 15 years ago so have no idea what it cost.

The easiest way to break concrete (from vast experience) is to find and edge, or make one with a heavy mel, dig the bent chisel end under it, put a brick or similar as a fulcrum, lever down to lift the edge of the concrete a little and bash it with the mel. With a gap underneath it will break surprisingly easily even if quite thick. If 2 people then one pushes and other bashes but if on your own just kick somethin under and it will work every time.

I don't use mine for tree roots either as I've found that a mattock (grubber) does the job much better and quicker - after all that's one of the jobs it was made to do. Axe end cuts through roots you can see and the spade end cuts under to the ones you can't see. If a trunk is left the shrub or tree can be pushed over to get at the tap root. - easy peasy!

Bob


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## John15 (23 Aug 2013)

I've had the same 5' crow bar for about 40 years - the pointed end for making starter post holes and breaking concrete etc as said earlier, and the angled chisel end together with a fulcrum, working like a large nailbar, for raising heavy objects. It weighs a ton but it's a useful tool.


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## DMF (24 Aug 2013)

Hi,

sorry but after years on site as a ground worker i have to say there's a lot of talk for using these for smashing concrete, move on! We have breakers now (and some decent cheap ones are available, ps i have a sharpened chisel bit for tree roots as well while i think about it) so don't do your self in  Yes i have some, 2 big old things one with a large chisel and one with a point and they do get used but just every blue moon, chisel for squaring the edges of deep hand dug trenches, point for getting a big flint out, etc / whatever but if someone handed me one for breaking concrete up i would advise them of the year their in whilst waving my hands about as dramatically as i could and wait till they caught up.

Dean


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## donkeyoaty (27 Aug 2013)

Dear all, thanks again for your help - looking into everything you've recommended, grateful for all your advice.

Dean - let's assume, for now, that a bar is my only option. I have my reasons, I promise.


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## Lons (27 Aug 2013)

donkeyoaty":ecp5js4r said:


> let's assume, for now, that a bar is my only option. I have my reasons, I promise.



Part time burglar ? :lol:


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## donkeyoaty (27 Aug 2013)

Ha ha, if only I had the courage! No, no. Digging bar somewhat the wrong type for breaking and entering, anyway.

_Does anyone know the difference between a chisel and point crowbar and basic digging bar?_ Only one I can see in the catalogue is the price - chisel and point costs more at 1.8m than the regular digging bar. Any ideas?


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## donkeyoaty (27 Aug 2013)

Scratch that last query, have just noticed - digging bar is 'manufactured' (so probably machined or stamped?), chisel & point crow is drop forged. Might go with the latter, now.


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## bugbear (27 Aug 2013)

Lons":ly01nra1 said:


> The easiest way to break concrete (from vast experience) is to find and edge, or make one with a heavy mel, dig the bent chisel end under it, put a brick or similar as a fulcrum, lever down to lift the edge of the concrete a little and bash it with the mel. With a gap underneath it will break surprisingly easily even if quite thick. If 2 people then one pushes and other bashes but if on your own just kick somethin under and it will work every time.



As regularly demonstrated by Tommy Walsh on groundforce.



Lons":ly01nra1 said:


> I don't use mine for tree roots either as I've found that a mattock (grubber) does the job much better and quicker - after all that's one of the jobs it was made to do. Axe end cuts through roots you can see and the spade end cuts under to the ones you can't see. If a trunk is left the shrub or tree can be pushed over to get at the tap root. - easy peasy!
> 
> Bob



Agreed. For roots I use a "grubbing mattock" (as you describe) a old worn-short pickaxe (VERY strong, lots of leverage) and a road menders fork. Do NOT try to lever roots with a normal garden fork - you'll just bend the tines to no effect.

BugBear


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## jakethebuilder (27 Aug 2013)

My bar is hexagonal, six feet long, with a chisel on one end, and a point on the other. About an inch and a half in diameter. I like the hexagonal shaft, because it's easier to keep your grip when you start sweating. And you will be sweating if you heave that bar for more than a few minutes. It'll bend slightly, if I put all my 230 pounds on it, with a log fulcrum at the one foot mark, but with the hexagonal shaft, it's easy enough to flip it over and bend it back the other way. That would be tough to do with a round shaft, as it would tend to turn.


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## Lons (27 Aug 2013)

> As regularly demonstrated by Tommy Walsh on groundforce.


I've never seen that program Bugbear though I know who he is (the guy with the bracees who did adverts?) Anyway, if it is him, I bet I used the method first - I'm older than him I think :wink: :lol: 

Bob


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## DMF (28 Aug 2013)

donkeyoaty":icno20s0 said:


> Dean - let's assume, for now, that a bar is my only option. I have my reasons, I promise.



OK a promise is a promise so i'm happy :lol: 

Shame your not closer, whatever you had in mind i would of willingly helped out with kit, as for the discussion in general, don't try to lever to much with digging bars they will bend and that can throw the balance off when you use them for what their for no matter how much you think you've straightened them, crow bar types yes much stronger, i got a set of combination bars that you can lever anything with but they were £250+ for the pair some 15 years ago. My head was with proper bits of concrete but to tommys spec a good graft would do it with a pick and a sledge if he accidentally put too much down!

With this type of thing always use what you have to hand, i know in this area i'm lucky and have the choice but two of the best tools were given to me, the first the welders on a job made me, a bar, made from a 9' length of some proper scaffold tube with the end hammered flat, 3 thick lengths of re-bar and some kiln dried sand in the void and the end welded shut, ended up one hell of a levering tool! That's what i use for levering under stumps if their isn't another tree i can chuck the old hand winch round i also got given. Of course if you have a petrol disc cutter then those tyrannosaur type blades are good for all kinds of mess too including root chopping, etc etc, whatever it is in your case i hope you have fun  

Dean


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