# Window Tooling for Amateurs???



## juatrhiw (15 Dec 2009)

Modern wooden windows must provide both high insulation and high security. Sections are maybe 75mm for frames and 60mm for sashes and are quite complicated. They also need to look good. 

Professionals can invest in costly spindle tooling to make such windows cost effectively, but, the question is, what solutions are available to amateurs, or low-volume craftsmen?

I am contemplating the building of two porches onto my house, involving around 20 panes. I already have some superb window frames that were professionally made, and would like to copy them, having all the basic wood working tools, including a 3-phase moulder with sliding table. I have done some research on the net, but can find very little to help me, other than cutter advertisements. Books I have looked at are years out of date, dealing with traditional, thin-section windows. So, firstly, any pointers to books or articles would be useful.

The most impressive ad is for the Trend Window System. This is worth looking up on the net so that you can see a video of someone making a complete window in 2 hours. The system involves 43 separate spindle tools, mounted in stacks. I dare not even contemplate the price. Next down is the Axminster system, which looks excellent, but still costs a cool £3500. Below that, the Whitehill Finger Joint system would be fine for the sashes, but we are still at £1500. Below that, I'm not sure what is the answer, remembering that for 60/75mm sections, the scribe tools need a reach of around 60mm, to cope with those fingers or tenons.

As an amateur, I'm quite prepared to be much less efficient than a professional. However, I want a result that is just as good, which seems to argue for scribed and moulded joints, as offering the best protection against water ingress.

So, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to tackle this job? I'm full of ignorance on the topic, so feel free.

many thanks

ju


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## Dibs-h (15 Dec 2009)

juatrhiw":20mphe30 said:


> Modern wooden windows must provide both high insulation and high security. Sections are maybe 75mm for frames and 60mm for sashes and are quite complicated. They also need to look good.
> 
> Professionals can invest in costly spindle tooling to make such windows cost effectively, but, the question is, what solutions are available to amateurs, or low-volume craftsmen?
> 
> ...



I find myself in a similar position but having to produce traditional casement windows (not sash windows). Buy a Domino. The following thread of mine may be of some use plus the info from Steve M.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=37462

Will be making them (or starting) in the coming week so will be updating the thread with pictures as well.


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## Steve Maskery (15 Dec 2009)

Freud also do a set. No idea on the price.

If you email me I'll send you a very good article that used to be available on the 'net and seems to have been pulled for some reason.

S


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## Oryxdesign (15 Dec 2009)

If you have a moulder what about these?

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Whit ... -19800.htm

Simon


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## ProShop (15 Dec 2009)

It's not that difficult, complicated or expensive if as you say you already have a moulder.
And you certainly *Don't* need a Domino.

The Axminster tooling set at 3K plus isn't even complete you have to buy extra tooling, also the Whitehill & Trend is the same :shock: 

We make windows etc all the time without all that expense, but to be fair it does take a little longer.

I can recommend a book with detailed drawings in about window profiles etc.
But I guess from your post you already know the gist of what style etc you want.

pm sent.


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## Steve Maskery (15 Dec 2009)

ProShop":1gbnfae3 said:


> And you certainly *Don't* need a Domino.



Nobody _needs _a Domino. Ooh, but it's nice 
S


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## ProShop (15 Dec 2009)

Steve Maskery":3swekl4f said:


> ProShop":3swekl4f said:
> 
> 
> > And you certainly *Don't* need a Domino.
> ...



I have one, but I don't use it for windows


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## ondablade (16 Dec 2009)

There's been several discussion on the topic of window making on the Felder Owner's Group site (FOG) on Yahoo - a search might be worthwhile. Some have gone the whole hog with quite fancy tooling sets.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/f ... odworking/

ian


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## ggrranpa (16 Dec 2009)

i've used this set to make windows and doors, It's tricky to do the first one, and takes a bit of time, but after that it all gets easier. For the frames I used normal router bits..
http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/productlist/4/67/Shoulder_Scribe_Cutters.html[url]


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## juatrhiw (16 Dec 2009)

Thanks for your replies, guys

The Trada document from Steve was highly informative, but it concentrates on the whys and wherefores of the *design*. Design is certainly important, but it isn't the crux of *my* problem, which is how best to machine the wood to achieve the design.

I can see that jointing up the frame in the square (or rectangle) and then running the mouldings and finally mitreing the corners is an option, but it has the (albeit small) disadvantage that it permits water to enter from the outside to the inside. The alternative, of having a scribed stile overlapping a moulded sill, has the advantage of no easy water entry point. 

The problem as I see it, is that without fancy tooling, it will be difficult to get the tenon-to-mortice fitting to match the scribe-to-moulding fitting, and to get the inner and outer shoulders of the joint to fit properly.

Or am I missing something, which is certainly not unusual?

ju


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## ProShop (16 Dec 2009)

juatrhiw":2wj6a93s said:


> Thanks for your replies, guys
> 
> The Trada document from Steve was highly informative, but it concentrates on the whys and wherefores of the *design*. Design is certainly important, but it isn't the crux of *my* problem, which is how best to machine the wood to achieve the design.
> 
> ...




Check your PM box . 2 sent


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## Steve Maskery (16 Dec 2009)

But Ju, isn't this the whole point? As ams, we can't do exactly the same as industry, at least, not as easily. You can do exactly what you want with just hand tools, but it is a lot of work. So that is why we compromise. But the compromise need not be in quality. With modern glues and good _appropriate_ joinery, it is certainly possible to make a good-looking, robust, efficient window frame. It won't be the same as an industrial one, but it can be just as good.

S


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## ondablade (17 Dec 2009)

Put it this way. The set of 'one setting' tooling that Felder sell for the small shop (video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfc7J8gLwtg) costs £4,250 plus VAT.

Don't know if the continental pattern is very different, but the point is that if they felt it viable to offer such a product at that price the chances are that that's about what it takes to do a commercially viable decent job on a spindle moulder in a small shop.

Either that or they got it wrong.

That's not as Steve says that there aren't non commercial ways of doing it for much less investment, but at the cost of much more time. 

I'd imagine that next step down is to use a bundle of separate moulding cutters and a rebating head that each need individual setting.

Chances are that below that you could use fewer cutters (maybe just some specialised jointing ones) , and prepare some of the sections using multiple saw cuts....

ian


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## joiner_sim (17 Dec 2009)

All your mouldings and rebates can be done on the spindle, obviously. Probably with cutters you already have? Jointing wise, I'd just cut the tennons on the bandsaw, you can achieve good scribes on the bandsaw if you take your time.


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## Modernist (18 Dec 2009)

I make Euro stule timber windows and I have had the same dilemma. I ended up buying a large adjustable groover and a standard groover plus normal rebate blocks. I diod a long thread on most of this on the other side

http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/viewt ... 40&start=0

Nowadays I do the scribed shoulder on the bandsaw having done the main tenon on the moulder and just clean out the corner by hand.


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## juatrhiw (18 Dec 2009)

A big thank - you to everyone who helped me out on this one! I shall give it a go as soon as I get rid of the Christmas visitors, making sure that I use some pretty cheap stock to start with.

Wonderful thing, internet forums.

ju


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## Tim Nott (20 Dec 2009)

We've been making a load of doors and windows in a small workshop and invested in a s/h Sedgwick 3-head tenoner at around 3,500 - about the same as the axminster tooling! Our other two machines are a combi saw/spindle/pt and a rubbish fox mortiser

After a fair bit of trial and error I think we got it sussed.
Cut all the pieces to length (or over to leave horns on the styles)
Rebate the styles on the spindle moulder, cut the moulding on the styles with a router.
Mortise the styles.
Tenon and scribe the rails 'in the square', then rebate and mould with the spindle and router still set up.
Put the frame together and marvel at the tightness of the scribes.

I've left out the bit about having loads of decent sized offcuts of the same stock for trial and erroring on.


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