# Cadmium plating



## Scrit (10 Jun 2006)

Here's one for you chemistry wizards. My understanding is that during and after WWII Record plated some of their planes with cadmium rather than nickel due to the strategic restrictions on the use of nickel. Cadmium is supposed to be quite toxic and has nowadays been almost entirely superceded by nickel for plating. That being the case are there any concerns about using cadmium-plated tools, in particular the possible absorption of cadmium through skin contact (sweaty hands)?

Scrit


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## Shady (10 Jun 2006)

Hmm... Interesting subject:

OK, accepting that it's your decision as a grown up boy:

a) Fundamentally, the evidence is that Cadmium as a metal/alloy is not absorbed through the skin:


> "Primary control should focus on inhalation although cadmium also can cause toxic effects after ingestion. Cadmium is not absorbed through the skin." (OSHA, revision date 05/04/2000)



b) However, given the possible effects:


> Primary routes of exposure for cadmium are ingestion or inhalation. Long-term exposure to cadmium results in a number of negative effects, including emphysema, kidney disease, anemia, liver disturbance, and bone disease. Cadmium is also classified by EPA as a probable human carcinogen.



c) My concern would be the combination of Cadmium, my skin, and all the solvents we play with in the workshop - oils, acetone, thinners etc etc. It is certainly theoretically possible that, either through unbroken skin as a dissolved solution, or through a cut/graze in the same way, you could be exposing yourself to some risk. Pretty unlikely, but not impossible. Given that we're talking utility planes, I'd be inclined to regard the risk as not worth the candle, but that's just me, and on balance, I'd say that, for example, the health risk from dust in your workshop is probably greater... So, really, your call depending on your response to this info. Just don't eat them or try to smoke them - that will be a bad idea... :lol:


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## CHJ (10 Jun 2006)

Hi *Scrit*,
From what I can remember from doing the COSHH assessments, plated products in good condition presented little risk in handling compared with the natural exposure found in general machine shop where it might be machined or made volatile whilst welding etc.

One (USA) reference I found giving a clear guide was This (Can't put my hand on the UK version.)

Beware of any that have a white deposit, often found on plated items in electronic equipment or electrical cabinets as it is easily transferred to hands/food/cigarets etc.

I think most smokers absorb more daily than you might get from handling the solid product.


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## Scrit (10 Jun 2006)

Thank you for the responses. This question came about because I took some plane components to a local electro plater who happens to do nickel and it was he who told me that the components were cadmium plated rather than nickel and that they wouldn't replate in cadmium for health and safety reasons. 

If I wanted to replate these items in nickel do you know if they would need to be unplated first, or would it be sufficient to degrease then nickel plate?

Scrit


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## engineer one (10 Jun 2006)

scrit,

good question to allow us to consider a number of areas apart from
extraction where we might harm ourselves.

plating, be it nickel, cadmium or chrome is in fact a nasty activity,
involving acids, and heavy metals, but also often involving plating
on metals which are alloys.

any of you with older dinky toys will know about mazac, and
older car owners will have door handles on their older model
mg, or vauxhall, and those are alloys plated, and often have 
a kind of speckled appearance these days, this is due
to the plating over time re-acting with the alloy, and improper
cleaning..

actually checking old motorbikes will give you a better idea.

originally they were plated with nickel, but often over copper plating.
and indeed, the best chrome plating should be done over copper
too.

where i would be concerned, is whether the plating has de-layered,
and part of it are peeling or shaking off, and the splinters might stick into 
you. or the dust might get you.

remember, nickel, chrome, and cadmium are in modern definitions
proabably likely to be classed as heavy metal in their waste and 
natural conditions, but not when properly installed.

since we have had other long discussions about sharpening plane blades,
maybe we should really look more carefully at breathing in the 
fumes when sharpening. even on my tormek, maybe now i should 
think about wearing a mask?????

could this be the excuse others need to buy new planes from LN and LV????
   

rather than risk using materials that we now consider unsafe :twisted: :twisted: 

it seems that the dust in the workshop is more dangerous than 
cadmium on your plane.

paul :wink:


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## engineer one (10 Jun 2006)

your other reply jumped mine, scrit
i would check a couple other platers to find out, and maybe
get a copy of their coshh rules that they are going to rely on.

the major problem with plating over plating is that you cannot
guarantee to get a smooth overall finish.

motor bike restorers tend to try to remove ALL the plating before
re-plating, not least because the cost of removing substances is
higher than the plating cost, so if you can remove all the plating
it will give you a better, and much less expensive job.

paul :wink:


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## Scrit (10 Jun 2006)

Paul

It's 20 odd years since I did a Velo frame, so my memory is now a bit hazy. I recall that the plater bead or vacublasted them with something friable (ground cherry stones?) which removed the plating but left the steel underneath OK. Would that be a good way to proceed rather than deplating?

Scrit


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## mahking51 (10 Jun 2006)

Scrit
I regularly get items re nickeled at my local plating shop; old Stanley 66's and the like.
They completely strip the old coating usually by softish blast media then passivate, degrease and then copper then sulphated nickel. Mostly this is over a rough finish as per the original tool but they do lightly polish the wear areas and top ribs etc. Very happy with their work though not inexpensive! They do all the little thumb screws and small parts as well.

I echo what others have said in that cadmium metal is not inherently bad news but any time it is volatilised, grinding, welding or via solvents etc it wants careful watching. Better safe than sorry.
All plating solutions are very bad news indeed and great effort is taken to minimise spray from the tank agitators. I would not work in a plating shop for any money.

Regards
Martin


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## engineer one (10 Jun 2006)

scrit, 
as an ariel man, i have always found the velo enthusiast a little
strange, those funny clutches etc, plus that frame!!!!

however you are right, about a softer product, but frankly i wonder
whether with the proper masking, you could use a sander, say one
attached by spindle or a dremel type drill, and that would i think
give a good smooth finish.

i think blasting would produce more dangerous dust than sanding,
although if you can do it in an industrial cabinet then that would be 
ok., but i find that blasting tends to round off the corners too much.

by the by i worked for a while in the plating shop, doing the polishing
on a flap wheel to clean up the surface before acid dipping and 
plating.

however, any work you can do before it gets to the platers will save 
money, which might make looking at a modern plane almost
economical :lol: :lol: :lol: 

paul :wink: 
ps sorry alf, reverting to engineering mode again


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## Scrit (10 Jun 2006)

engineer one":7y66lfr1 said:


> As an ariel man, i have always found the velo enthusiast a little strange, those funny clutches etc, plus that frame!!!!


 Yes, but at least our back pots don't overheat! Believe me, having a frame which accommodates a long seat (3 men and a dog.....) is very useful on the way back from the pub, but I digress.

I've got access to a Guyson cabinet which has a reciovery/recycle system so I think that might be the way to go. Just need to find out what he uses as "shot" 

Scrit


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## Alf (10 Jun 2006)

The one and only warning I've heard about cadmium plated Record planes is *don't try and remove the plating* - that's presumably when you can ingest the bad stuff. So proceeding with caution seems called for.

Cheers, Alf


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## engineer one (10 Jun 2006)

alf i also think that part of it is to do with the damage you might do to 
the underlying part if you use abrasive paper and so on.

however using an air gun shot blaster in a cabinet will i think be
relatively safe and more accurate.

scrit, some of us actually have single cylinder motor bikes, not the
four cylinder ones that have cooling problems. more importantly
a nice suspension and good roadholding.

i assume you are only going to re plate the cap, so you will need
to drift out the metal dowel for the lever, and make sure there is
enough room after plating for it to move up and down.

be nice to see the results

paul :wink:


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## Alf (10 Jun 2006)

engineer one":3edr5a1m said:


> alf i also think that part of it is to do with the damage you might do to
> the underlying part if you use abrasive paper and so on.


Nope, this was definitely specific to trying to remove cadmium plating, but you're right, it's nigh on impossible to do a good job of it. DAMHIKT... 8-[

Cheers, Alf


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## CHJ (10 Jun 2006)

*Scrit,* If you want to DIY have a look at this supplier (under plating)used to do a lot of this in my teens when still living on a farm without electricity. (charged my batteries from my push-bike alternator) Mind you I don't think you can get silver or gold cyanide over the counter anymore for SWIMBO's jewelry.


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## Scrit (11 Jun 2006)

Thank you all for the input. I actually want to refinish a Record #050A (yes, Alf a COMBINATION junior boat anchor) which has suffered rather badly over the years. Depending on how it goes it might go in thios week - or maybe not..... 

Scrit


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## Alf (11 Jun 2006)

Refinish? Sheesh, I thought folks just cut the anchor cable and left them in the oggin when they got too bad... :roll: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Colin C (11 Jun 2006)

Hi Srit 
How much is it going to cost to get it re-finished as I have a Recond 44 that needs re-plating too


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## Alf (11 Jun 2006)

Sheesh, it's a disease. 

Lessee, re-plating won't make them work better, so you can't be users. And re-plating doesn't make them worth more, so you can't be collectors either. So what is this? Boutique plane accumulators looking to make the contents of their display cases shiny? 

Deary, deary me... :roll:

Cheers, Alf


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## Scrit (11 Jun 2006)

Alf":34ohsv31 said:


> Lessee, re-plating won't make them work better, so you can't be users. And re-plating doesn't make them worth more, so you can't be collectors either. So what is this? Boutique plane accumulators looking to make the contents of their display cases shiny?


 
:lol: 

Well if it was good enough for the late Jim Kingshott.......

You've obviously never had an old motorcycle, Alf, or you _might_ understand. Then again, maybe not....... :wink: 

Scrit


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## Shady (12 Jun 2006)

> Lessee, re-plating won't make them work better, so you can't be users. And re-plating doesn't make them worth more, so you can't be collectors either. So what is this? Boutique plane accumulators looking to make the contents of their display cases shiny?
> 
> Deary, deary me... Rolling Eyes



Man alive, you're in 'crusty old Alf the curmudgeonly commentator' mode recently Alf: take a chill pill and enjoy the posts... why not clean one's planes if one wishes?? Feel free to abuse me by pm if you need to... :wink:


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## Alf (13 Jun 2006)

Shady":3nsbv8ky said:


> why not clean one's planes if one wishes??


By all means clean them. Heck, you can paint 'em and plate 'em 'til their as abominable as Anne Robinson's face lift, just don't expect me to like it.

Apparently nothing less than a wooden plane followed by a Bailey followed bu a infill panel plane was good enough for Jim Kingshott, but I don't think that necessarily makes it the thing to do really, do you?

Cheers, Alf


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## mahking51 (13 Jun 2006)

Alf,

So you don't want to see pics of my just refinished 46 with all new everything and full set of blades, awaiting its new greenheart and maple dt'd box with lurex lining by Versace?   

Regards
Martin


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## Alf (13 Jun 2006)

Only if you provide me with a re-plated bucket to puke in first.

Cheers, Alf


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## Colin C (13 Jun 2006)

So I take that as a no :roll: :twisted: 8-[ 
( running for the hills , forgetting the coat )


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## Scrit (13 Jun 2006)

mahking51":1rzzcjjs said:


> So you don't want to see pics of my just refinished 46 with all new everything and full set of blades, awaiting its new greenheart and maple dt'd box with lurex lining by Versace?



Sounds quite stylish, even fetching, Martyn. 8) Let's see.....

Scrit


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## Bean (13 Jun 2006)

Scrit
You will struggle/will not find anyone to Cadmium plate your plane. It is now illegal to do so, unless you have a licence and then it is only given for aircraft parts. An awful lot of other plating processes will also disapear in the next few years as hexavalent chromium is outlawed. The main change will be to trivalent chomium, colours are not so pretty.

To blast the cadmium off you will create a lot of dust so wear a face mask, also you will need to clean out the blast cabinet as it will also be full of contaminated medium. It may be best to find someone who does this for a living, they will have the ability to handle these contaminents.

Oh and Velo's rock. First motorbike I rode was a velo venom clubman on the service road at Houghton airfield


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## mahking51 (14 Jun 2006)

Scrit,
Just a peek then, not quite finished yet; Alf, have bucket on standby!






Hope you like it.

Regards
martin


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## engineer one (14 Jun 2006)

martin are you sure that versace are subtle enough for you??? :lol: 

looks nice though,
better clean up my similar looking thing

paul :wink:


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## mahking51 (14 Jun 2006)

Paul,
I did have the option of a gold tint to the plating but thought that Alf might have had a stroke!

On a silghtly more serious note I don't see anything wrong with taking a tool back to where it was when new; I really look after my new tools to keep them that way so why not older ones?

Mind you, it'd be a funny old world if we all liked things the same way!

Regards
Martin
(just 'phoning for a quote to chrome a bucket....)


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## engineer one (14 Jun 2006)

naw a b&q plastic one at 99p will do :lol: :lol: 

paul :wink:


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## Colin C (14 Jun 2006)

Hi Martin
How much did it cost you as I would like to get an idea as to how much my 44 might be


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## Colin C (14 Jun 2006)

It also has no plating to remove


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## Newbie_Neil (14 Jun 2006)

Hi all

Hope you don't mind me joining in.

This reminds me of a time almost forty years ago when a friend of mine, who was an apprentice at BEA (?) aircraft maintenance in South Wales, lifted the bonnet on his car to show me the _*newly chromed*_ engine.

Cheers
Neil


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## Alf (14 Jun 2006)

Arrgh! My eyes, my beautiful eyes.... ](*,) Obviously we need something to counteract that PDQ:






Cheers, Alf


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## mahking51 (14 Jun 2006)

Alf,
I have to say that if mine had been in that condition I would have thought twice about doing it up, very nice, full set of cutters?

martin


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## mahking51 (14 Jun 2006)

Colin C
Not quite sure as it was part of a much larger order; somewhere around £20 I think for all the bits, you do have to clean the threads afterwards as they can stick.
Martin


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## Alf (14 Jun 2006)

mahking51":28klgjhl said:


> I have to say that if mine had been in that condition I would have thought twice about doing it up


It wasn't quite like that when I started... Missing one, maybe two cutters IIRC. Not surprising given the lousy design of cutter box.


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## Scrit (14 Jun 2006)

At the risk of being branded a phillistine I quite like that Martin! 8) 

I just wonder why nobody objects to planes like this, though:






which come from the factory all nicely plated

Right then that's me off Alf's Christmas card list......... If I was ever on it to start with. :lol: 

Scrit


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## Alf (14 Jun 2006)

Scrit":p46obr2t said:


> I just wonder why nobody objects to planes like this, though:


Who says they don't? I do! The poor thing should have been _used_. :roll: :lol:



Scrit":p46obr2t said:


> Right then that's me off Alf's Christmas card list......... If I was ever on it to start with. :lol:


S'okay Scrit, _everyone's_ off my Christmas card list - I don't have one. :wink:

Cheers, Alf


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