# Lapped dovetails



## Anonymous (9 Dec 2006)

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## Roger (9 Dec 2006)

I've always used pretty much what you describe - a slightly skewed Bevel Edge .......... of course there's always the 'Rat' or similar! The outer appearance is the same, but much faster


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## Wylie2112 (9 Dec 2006)

Jacob,

Hi! I'm starting a project very similar, my first wood project, and I'm trying to do it all with handtools just to learn the craft. I have been debating how to secure the sides to the tops and bottoms. I was thinking of doing it with a sliding dovetail but I have no idea how to make the shapes or how to do it so the joint comes out square and true.

Can I ask you how you decided on the dovetails and how you typically make them? I'm assuming you mean a dovetail-shaped joint that you slide one into another, am I right?

Cheers,
Shawn


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## woodbloke (9 Dec 2006)

Mr G - yup, that's what's needed ideally. You can do it with bevelled chisels ordinaire but a pair of skewed chisels make the whole job easier. Axminster sell a set by Crown I believe, but you can just as easily by a pair of second hand chisels and grind 'em yourself - Rob


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## Anonymous (9 Dec 2006)

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## Roger (9 Dec 2006)

Shawn

Here's a basic site with details and descriptions of various joints, including Dovetails. However you're probably better off getting hold of a good Woodworking reference book and then practicing a lot before you dive into some decent construction.

Dovetail Joints


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (9 Dec 2006)

> no prob except for the inner corners of the housings; I feel that there must be a more efficient or neat way and that what I really need is a pair of opposite-handed, skewed, bevel-edge (paring) chisels. Is this what the experts would use or are there other suggestions as to how to do it neatly and quickly?



Jacob

For the inside corner of a half blind dovetail, this is the chisel I use:







Basically, it is a fishtail chisel I made from an old, spare chisel. Skew chisels are useful for cleaning out corners as well, but they need to be used like a knife. A fishtail chisel cuts on the push, which affords greater control.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Wylie2112 (9 Dec 2006)

My mistake. I misunderstood what Jacob was describing. I was thinking of a blind house joint but with a dovetail profile. The top and bottom of my bookcase are going to be longer than the shelves, so the uprights will intersect them about an inch in from the edge. I was thinking about joining them with a blind housejoint, but that won't be very strong for lifting the bookcase by the top and I dind't want to just hope the glue held in that cirsumstance. I was hoping Jacob was on the same thing so I could piggy back on the thread.

Cheers,
Shawn


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## Anonymous (9 Dec 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Basically, it is a fishtail chisel I made from an old, spare chisel. Skew chisels are useful for cleaning out corners as well, but they need to be used like a knife. A fishtail chisel cuts on the push, which affords greater control.
> 
> Regards from Perth
> 
> Derek



Just the job - I'll do one tomorrow. Thanks Derek

cheers
Jacob


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## Alf (9 Dec 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Skew chisels are useful for cleaning out corners as well, but they need to be used like a knife. A fishtail chisel cuts on the push, which affords greater control.


You've lost me there, Derek. In what respect d'you mean the skews need to be used like a knife? Elucidate for this poor dimwit, if you would. 

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (9 Dec 2006)

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## Anonymous (9 Dec 2006)

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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Dec 2006)

> Derek Cohen (Perth, Oz) wrote:
> Skew chisels are useful for cleaning out corners as well, but they need to be used like a knife. A fishtail chisel cuts on the push, which affords greater control.





> Alf wrote:
> You've lost me there, Derek. In what respect d'you mean the skews need to be used like a knife? Elucidate for this poor dimwit, if you would.



Alf, I suspect that this is too simple for you! A dimwit you are not :lol: 

Here are a couple of drawings. The first usesa fishtail chisel, and the second a skew chisel.

Keep in mind that you are look at a plan of a half-blind dovetail, that is down at a open recess. The side walls are perpendicular, but these are angled to the rear wall (forming ... a dovetail!). It is the rear corners that prove difficult to clear with a chisel. Paring down towards the base is easier enough since the angle (created by the rear and side walls) is not a barrier. But paring the angle created by the base and side wall is the problem.

_Fig #1: pushing a fishtail chisel_





_Fig #2: cutting with a skew chisel:_





The point here is that it is easier to push a chisel forward than to cut with one sideways. Note that I also have skew chisels, and find that they are essential for through dovetails.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## David C (10 Dec 2006)

Derek,

That's a huge angle on your skew chisel diagram.

I prefer to prepare mine just over 1:6 (or is that under?) as this is the steepest dovetail angle that I use. They then clean the corner with a straight push.

Just a thought,

best wishes from a stormy North Devon winter,

David


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## Roger (10 Dec 2006)

I can see some advantage maybe with the Fishtail in that it's only one Chisel for both corners - but that does depend on the angle being very accurate as David's pointed out.

The skew 'seems' just a little more versatile somehow - but it's probably more personal preference really. I might just find or make a Fishtail however - I can see it coming in handy sometime!


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## Alf (10 Dec 2006)

Ah, see what you meant now Derek. I can only concur with the previous opinions; kinda depends on the degree of skew in your skew chisels. I confess I prefer the idea of justifying two chisels to one as well...  :wink: Gratuitous shot for no good reason whatsoever:






Cheers, Alf


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## woodbloke (10 Dec 2006)

Alf - _do_ like them handles - will have to have a go ere long on my own pair of skewed chisels - Rob


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Dec 2006)

> Derek,
> 
> That's a huge angle on your skew chisel diagram.



David

Here is a picture of the Crown skews I own. I bought them about 3 years ago. They still have the same skew angle they came with. I did not change it as I found them useful to clean up through dovetails. 

The fishtail chisel has sides ground to 1:6. I cannot claim any creativity here as I got the idea from Rob Cosman. 






These skews, in any case, are too large for some of the skinny dovetail, so I plan to make a few in the near future.

I did make a dovetailed box today. A Christmas present for a galoot. Jarrah and Mahogany.






Inside is a dovetail marking knife and a scratch awl.






Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (10 Dec 2006)

Nice set, Derek.


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## Anonymous (11 Dec 2006)

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## dchenard (11 Dec 2006)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> > Derek,
> >
> > That's a huge angle on your skew chisel diagram.
> 
> ...



Cosman had one of those fishtails at his booth last week, I was wondering what it was for...

Thanks for the heads-up.

DC


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## David C (11 Dec 2006)

Dear Derek,

I have not tried a skew at the angle supplied by Crown.

Could you possibly explain in what cutting operations you find their acute angle useful please? I do not use my skews at all in through dovetailing and suspect that you may have some cunning application.

BTW my pair are reground 6mm (1/4") chisels, as I need to get into a narrow socket at the edges of secret mitre dovetails.

Have never understood why commercial ones seem to be 1/2" or wider.

Cosman's rationale is efficiency, which is good, one chisel instead of two, but it looks rather unkind to me, on the chisel I mean, and I don't think his variation will get into those small sockets.

David


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Dec 2006)

Hi David

These Crown skews chisels are a waste of money as dovetail chisels go. They were an impulse purchase some years ago. They are 1/2" wide, which is not the main problem, but rather that they are thick and very long - like over long firmers with a skew bevel. The width does limit them to more widely spaced tails, since this equates to wider pins. I plan to grind a few of my own skews now. 

My "weapons" for dovetailing include a couple of Matsumura Japanese dovetail chisels when I need to use a mallet, but mostly I use a set of 1/8" - 1/2" Berg pairing chisels that I have reground and rehandled just for dovetailing (these are very sweet - a light and delicate balance). I have 1/4" and 3/8" fishtail chisels, which are usually all that are needed.

So how and when do I use the Crown skews? They are almost the same angle as a heavy duty Japanese knife I have, but have more authority, so are prefered when clearing out inside corners of tails. Think of peeling an apple!  

No cunning application I'm afraid - unless you want to come over and find out whether they make good kebab skewers! :shock: 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Anonymous (11 Dec 2006)

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## Wylie2112 (11 Dec 2006)

Always thinking about the right tool for the job, I was looking at this set of skew chisels which seem to have a more acute angle and shorter handle and blade length. How useful do you think this kind of chisel would be for doing dovetails by hand?

http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?ite ... mID=103414

Shawn


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## Wiley Horne (11 Dec 2006)

Shawn,

Those are too wide. Look at Mr. Charlesworth's post just above. He is talking about a 1/4" tool (6mm). By the way, most any old 1/4" chisel that you find at a boot sale or wherever will do this job--you just sharpen it to a skew angle. One other 'by the way', I usually do this job with an ordinary straight 4.5mm chisel, simply because it's nearer to hand than going to fetch the skews from the other end of the bench. There are three approach angles into the corner of a half blind socket, and two of 'em of straight shots.

Wiley


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## Anonymous (11 Dec 2006)

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## Wylie2112 (11 Dec 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":1f12054k said:


> Not cheap those GW offerings :roll:
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



No, exactly why it pays to ask for some experienced wisdom on this site. I was asking about the angle of the skew and the length of the blades/handles more than anything. Some examples of skew chisels I've seen seem to have very shallow skews, which I'd have thought would limit their usefulness. 

Having said all that, I've not done many blind dovetails and haven't really needed a skew chisel to do the ones I have done. I think the fishtail looks like a neat solution to the access problem, though. Might get myself down to the bootsale soon to pick up the raw material for one!

Shawn


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## David C (13 Dec 2006)

Wylie,

That remind's me of when I started learning.

The technique first taught to me, just blast slightly too deep into the far corner with an 1/8" chisel.......

This worked OK but I prefer the neater look from the 1:6 skews.

This neatness does little to improve the joint But I get a lot of satisfaction from neat corners................

These little foibles can be good for the soul.....or is it just pride?

Derek,

Thank you, I cannot concieve of a use for the 1/2 " Crown design.........yet.

In a similar vein I can't find a use for the very long sharp edges on Japanese knife, looks more suited to animal skinning to me, and very easy to cut yourself on the heel end of the bevel.

David


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## bugbear (13 Dec 2006)

David C":2hwm0v3o said:


> The technique first taught to me, just blast slightly too deep into the far corner with an 1/8" chisel.......



Heh; crude but effective, and once the joint is closed, no one will ever know...

BugBear


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## Anonymous (13 Dec 2006)

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## Anonymous (13 Dec 2006)

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## woodbloke (16 Dec 2006)

Mr G wrote:


> "crude but effective" seems to be the general rule for anything out of sight



Don't agree here at all Mr G I'm afeared. In my view the satisfaction comes from making _all_ parts of the job as good as you can possibly do them _without_ cutting corners at the expense of time or sometimes money. As an amateur maker that is a luxury that I can afford but will concede that different constraints _may_ apply if you have to earn a crust from making sawdust.

I am building my elm cabinet this winter and recently finished doing the back, solid elm frame with two floating elm panels. This has been niggling me for some time - I didn't do it in _quite_ the right way and had I fitted it to the cabinet later on (and it would be against a wall where no one will see it) _I_ would always know that it was rubbish and it would irritate me....I would have always been looking at the back and thinking ...Hmmm. Consequently the finished and polished panel went thru' the bandsaw the other night and I have prepared some new timber which is adjusting in the 'shop.

When I was working in the trade, my then boss made a piece for David Linley which was then inspected at length by one of his minions. Now Dick had used some ordinary 75mm pozidrive screws in the construction, thinking that they wouldn't be seen, which were buried deep on the underside of the piece..nothing wrong with that. Linleys bloke looked underneath and said that when the next piece made it would be using... 'proper brass countersunk screws, with the heads mirror polished'... Dicky just mumbled something in the affirmative and turned a little bit pale  :shock:

As JK has said in one of his books, its as easy to do a job correctly ( and he was talking about back panel construction) and to your satisfaction as do it badly - Rob


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## Anonymous (16 Dec 2006)

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## Roger (16 Dec 2006)

You're right with that one Mr. G .....

The old Masters certainly practiced that - when a penny was worth a fortune, time was way too valuable to spend on a hidden feature that never saw the light of day! It certainly didn't detract from either their reputation, place in history or the quality of the pieces produced.


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## woodbloke (16 Dec 2006)

Mr G - as I said, different constraints apply if you make a living from building stuff. If batch producing a quantity of cabinets as opposed to just one, then different techniques might be employed to save time (eg a greater use of machinery to prepare and finish timber, standardizing of component parts, spray finishing etc etc) but the quality of the overall workmanship ought not to be diminished.

I do agree tho' that whist much old furniture is breathtaking in the standard of work achieved (in common with much of today's pieces) an awful lot was produced to a standard which was deplorable (again the same thing happens today). A little trawl thru' Joyce's book will amply illustrate the point. I think that different constraints and pressures on the makers and firms that produce the furniture give rise to varying qualities. From my _own_ perspective, making on-offs at leisure, its worth attempting to do the very best, simply for my own satisfaction - Rob


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## engineer one (16 Dec 2006)

for those of use who remember certain kinds of motorcycles, and were involved in exhibition work for motor or motorcycle shows, there is the famous Brough Superior story.

pre war Brough we aligned with Rolls Royce in their reputation, which considering they were a company that used many proprietory items said much for their production. for those who don't know Lawrence of Arabia used many Broughs, and was killed whilst riding one.

however before one Earls Court exhibition George Brough was inspecting the display models and said "that tank is not good enough, but the tank builder said there's no time to make another" George took a hammer and smashed the tank, saying "there is now" :twisted: 

the important thing is that the amateur does have time, and may well feel that it is important whilst the professional needs to do the best in the time.

this does not diminish from either, just reflects a different approach at the time.

paul :wink:


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## Anonymous (16 Dec 2006)

I think the price reflects the standard of quality and build, I can build virtually the same pieces of furniture and yet the prices can be very different. Due to build methods, materials used etc.

The price quoted should reflect the build quality, the difficult part is assessing what the customer can afford.


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## woodbloke (16 Dec 2006)

....and price is obviously one of the main constraints - Rob


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