# Steel for plane blades



## Chris Knight (19 Nov 2005)

I prefer high carbon steel for plane blades. A2 is of course rather common these days and so is cryogenically treated A2. However, I reckon A2 takes longer to sharpen and I never get an edge quite as sharp as when I use HCS. A2 of course lasts longer so there is a trade off. 

Paraphrasing Konrad Sauer's words in his latest brochure nicely sums up my feelings - when you take a few more swipes with the plane on a piece of fine furniture, rather than go and sharpen it when you know it's getting dull is maybe a sign that your tool steel needs thinking about.


But what is your personal preference? If I have left any favourites out let me know!


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## Alf (19 Nov 2005)

That was easy; I only recognised two of them* and I know I don't like A2. :lol: Isn't D2 the stuff Ray Iles has used for his mortise chisels? Hey, if we get enough votes for HCS maybe Rob'll get a move on with those alternative irons for the Bevel-Up Brigade and I can stop playing with diamonds. \/ 

Cheers, Alf

* Only a tiny exaggeration, I'm ashamed to say.


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## Chris Knight (19 Nov 2005)

Alf":ejzjfap8 said:


> Isn't D2 the stuff Ray Iles has used for his mortise chisels?



Ian used it for his 98 too.


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## Alf (19 Nov 2005)

waterhead37":21pro6c3 said:


> Alf":21pro6c3 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't D2 the stuff Ray Iles has used for his mortise chisels?
> ...


Mmm, I remembered that right after I'd posted. What's supposed to be its benefits? I can't see the same ones being good for both a smoother blade _and_ a mortise chisel. :-k 

Cheers, Alf

Afraid she's not going to understand the answer... 8-[ :roll:


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## Ian Dalziel (19 Nov 2005)

D2 is not the easiest thing i've sharpened.....in fact its the worst i've had a go at.....it takes an edge and holds it though but not a material i will use again purley because its so tough......it took Andy King almost 1 1/2 hours to get an initial bevel on the diamond stone and i gave Geoff Brown of Brimarc a go on his Tormek.....his reply after nearly 3/4 of a hour...he has never sharpened any steel like it in 15 years...it kept glazing his stones. Ray Iles made my blades and got them to RC64 but my next ones will probobly be either A2 or HSS....
I only went this route because i got ignored from Hock and Ray had material in stock and was actually easy to deal with plus he also knows a bit about steel
I now have the problem of getting the hollow grind out of one of the blades........good side it holds well and doesnt take to long to sharpen once its pre bevelled. Konrad did use D2 for a while but has gone back to HSS...

I like most materials that work and would probobly tick a few on your list because if prepared right it'll work well.

I normally use my planer thicknesser for removing most of my timber then a final finish with the hand or block plane....i dont really go running to the waterstones every few shavings and when i pull them out i prefer to do a batch at a time because its so messy....so if i'm in the middle of a run and i really need too i just change blade then sharpen a batch at a time while everythings quiet and their isnt the possibility of getting a watery mess anywhere (god i hate mess) :roll: 

Like most tools i use if it feels right in my hand and i like the balance then i'm going to use it,whether it cost £1 or £500 ......
I am probobly one of the only people here not to like the grip any of my lie nielsens....i had to change every handle on them and sometimes the weight puts a strain on my arms i then revert back to my stanley no 5......but at the end of the day i dont expect a major manufacturer to be able to come up with a handle design that suits everyone so i make my own.....once the tool feels comfortable to use the results usually improve.....and i would think very few people try to adapt to their own hand grips which is probobly a pity.....


Ian


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## Chris Knight (19 Nov 2005)

A comparison between steels:-

D2 is semi stainless btw.


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## Ian Dalziel (19 Nov 2005)

waterhead37":36ip8nqv said:


> D2 is semi stainless btw.



blends right in in the 98 

need some help to come up with a name for the 14 inch version of the 98 

Ian


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## Frank D. (19 Nov 2005)

IME D2 is tougher than the chart indicates. It's a bear to sharpen as Ian has said, so I avoid it. No tools steel is perfect, I have some old O1 which holds an edge marvelously, but on the whole I prefer A2. It can take a good enough edge to take a .3 thou shaving, which is more than sharp enough. The edge doesn't break down the same way as with O1, it has a tendency to micro-chip rather than round off, but that depends on the bevel angle and the planing angle too. I've had trouble with a few A2 blades chipping quite quickly, but they were both from the same manufacterer. I've just gotten some A2 hardened locally for my chisels, I can't wait to give them a go.


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## Chris Knight (19 Nov 2005)

Frank,
That is a great looking collection of iron - sorry, steel! I look forward to seeing the finished articles.


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## Anonymous (19 Nov 2005)

I like A2 cause of the edge retention over O1.

I believe O1 does take a better edge initially but dulls quicker.

In a perfect world I would have A2 in all of my planes except my smoothers. 

I have no experience with D2, M2 or U2 (the band)

Dan Clermont


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## ydb1md (20 Nov 2005)

Ian Dalziel":28ti8zhe said:


> waterhead37":28ti8zhe said:
> 
> 
> > D2 is semi stainless btw.
> ...



Are you going to start selling your planes so that the rest of us can enjoy them?


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## MikeW (20 Nov 2005)

Another obvious person to select HC...

I don't generall push a blade to full edge failure. I home depending upon the operation regardless of whether it is A2 or HC, so neither get used to the point of failure. So in that respect, they both last just as long as the other. It's just that A2 takes more effort to hone. To me. Personal opinion.

Take care, Mike


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## Alf (20 Nov 2005)

Ian Dalziel":3bu7oq21 said:


> i dont really go running to the waterstones every few shavings and when i pull them out i prefer to do a batch at a time because its so messy....so if i'm in the middle of a run and i really need too i just change blade then sharpen a batch at a time while everythings quiet and their isnt the possibility of getting a watery mess anywhere


Watch out, Mike'll be onto you...



Ian Dalziel":3bu7oq21 said:


> (god i hate mess) :roll:


Anyone who's seen your workshop could probably have guessed that! :lol:



Ian Dalziel":3bu7oq21 said:


> need some help to come up with a name for the 14 inch version of the 98


How about the 1498? Or pick something from 1498 to name it after. Everyone will then puzzle as to why it's called that. :wink: Anyway, _everyone_ gives their planes numbers; why not a catchy name instead?

Depressingly I see the votes for A2 have increased overnight.  However, I have a theory. My theory is the quality of plane blades was reduced so much during the 70s and 80s by certain plane manufacturers well known to this forum that public perception became such that anything of "ordinary tool steel" must be useless and no more use than a rust attractor. Anyone who's used a good carbon steel blade from times of yore can tell you what rubbish that is, but the perception is there. Instead of making good HCS blades and re-educating the masses, certain manufacturers have pandered to this perception, so we have folks believing that nothing less than A2 is fit to use. From a piece of Stanley processed cheese slice to A2 makes sense, I grant you. From a Sorby or Ibbotson or Victor to A2? I just don't see it. Looking at Chris' chart, I can only assume the major appeal of A2 to the manufacturers is the greater stability in heat treating, hence the keeness to promote it; wouldn't we be being offered the better wear resistance of M2 otherwise? I gather the same benefit to the manufacturer might be claimed for cryo treatment too. Sheesh, are we easily manipulated, or what? :lol:

Cheers, Alf


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## ydb1md (20 Nov 2005)

Alf":1bzw7udp said:


> Instead of making good HCS blades and re-educating the masses, certain manufacturers have pandered to this perception, so we have folks believing that nothing less than A2 is fit to use. From a piece of Stanley processed cheese slice to A2 makes sense, I grant you. From a Sorby or Ibbotson or Victor to A2? I just don't see it. Looking at Chris' chart, I can only assume the major appeal of A2 to the manufacturers is the greater stability in heat treating, hence the keeness to promote it; wouldn't we be being offered the better wear resistance of M2 otherwise? I gather the same benefit to the manufacturer might be claimed for cryo treatment too. Sheesh, are we easily manipulated, or what? :lol:
> 
> Cheers, Alf



I grant you that a lot of the force behind A2's growth is marketing. It sounds kind of cool -- A2 sounds much better than O1 or HCS -- and once one manufacturer started carrying it, the rest had to carry it or be perceived as "behind."

How much different are A2 and O1? Not a whole lot. The A2 is about 1/3 more wear resistant than O1. Logically, it should take 1/3 longer to sharpen and stay sharp 1/3 longer. But, of course, people will have an opinion and a preference.

A2 has become one of those things that people (me included) just assume has to be better because we've been told it's better. Those of us that compare A2 to HCS and quantify their strengths and weaknesses are in the minority. Even though we are a vocal bunch, I imagine that we represent between 1% to 5% of the woodworking community. Maybe if someone began promoting proper HCS in the magazines, we'd see a shift but everytime that a tool comes out in A2 or D2 or some other exotic matrix, it catches readers eyes.

From the manfacturers perspective, they really have to pick one kind of steel and stick with it. I imagine it'd be tough for Veritas or LN to offer buyers the option of A2 or HCS on the majority of their products. Let's face it, I'm not sure how many planes Rob Lee sells in a year, but it's not a super high volume kind of business. I'm sure he has to weigh the pros and cons of all of this. It's not something to jump into lightly. It also becomes overwhelming for the salespeople taking the orders and the consumers making the orders. Give the average person too many choices and they become overwhelmed, their eyes glaze over and they just turn the page. From the sales perspective, when you have a blade for a plane made with three different bevels in two steel formulations the possibility for making a mistake when shipping increases. Everytime you make a mistake in shipping, you lose money on the postage and risk damaging your reputation and/or losing a customer. 

So, all the way around, it seems like tool manufacturers have decided to go with A2 and it's going to be a tough course to change.

Just my .02


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## Alf (20 Nov 2005)

:-$ Sheesh, Dave. Don't put Rob off; he's planning to offer HCS. 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (20 Nov 2005)

Alf":11ixogjv said:


> :-$ Sheesh, Dave. Don't put Rob off; he's planning to offer HCS.
> Cheers, Alf


But is that because even Rob prefers HC to A2 at a personal/professional use level? I think so from what he has mentioned in the past.

Mike


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## Ian Dalziel (20 Nov 2005)

Thanks for the ideas Alf...i'll give it some serious thought

Dave....not at the moment but maybe sometime soon

very interesting debate 

Ian


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## Alf (20 Nov 2005)

MikeW":709aqxjc said:


> Alf":709aqxjc said:
> 
> 
> > :-$ Sheesh, Dave. Don't put Rob off; he's planning to offer HCS.
> ...


Well I assume he hasn't let the power go to his head quite so much that he's doing it _just_ for his own benefit... :-k :lol: But yes, he did say as much at the show. Personally I don't care _why_, just _when_. :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (20 Nov 2005)

Well a little strongly worded...and I don't really care why, either. I just want them.

Of course, I only have 3 LV planes left. My LA block, LA smoother and the #6. Good intentions gone awry, my plan was to purchase the BU planes using some of the money from the sell-off. But it has gone all into making saws. Oh well.

And just to balance things out, all of my LN planes larger than a block plane are gone as well <g>. Oops. The #9 is still here. That one will stay.

Take care, Mike


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## ydb1md (20 Nov 2005)

MikeW":1y58k4ns said:


> And just to balance things out, all of my LN planes larger than a block plane are gone as well <g>. Oops. The #9 is still here. That one will stay.
> 
> Take care, Mike



Well, technically, the #9 is a block plane.  

That #9 is one pretty plane. If I had a need for one and they weren't so expensive . . . :roll:


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## Rob Lee (21 Nov 2005)

MikeW":33wstedq said:


> Alf":33wstedq said:
> 
> 
> > :-$ Sheesh, Dave. Don't put Rob off; he's planning to offer HCS.
> ...



Hi - 

HCS is personal choice for me... nothing wrong with A2 (and it is more popular) but I prefer to sharpen faster, and more often...

Cost is also much less - and for the same price - one could have 2-3 HCS blades....

We will have HCS as an alternative across the board, once we've sorted out supply....

Cheers - 

Rob


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## gidon (21 Nov 2005)

I prefer A2 purely based on the fact that it's meant to hold an edge longer. When I get my sharpening stones out I tend to give most of the tools I've used recently a go - I don't tend to sharpen in the middle of a job like it seems a lot of you do (too messy in a small workshop) - so the longer the edge lasts the better. 
Cheers
Gidon


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## Alf (21 Nov 2005)

Rob Lee":152o1xr7 said:


> nothing wrong with A2 (and it is more popular)


Helped by fatuous statements in the likes of FWW Tools & Shops that fails to mention the longer sharpening time and the need for a steeper bevel angle on A2 chisels. Honestly, I haven't even read all that one article yet and already smoke and fumes are emanating over all the inaccuracies. :evil: _Ashley_ Iles are gonna just love all the enquiries about the mortise chisels they _aren't_ making... But I digress, not to say rant. 



gidon":152o1xr7 said:


> I don't tend to sharpen in the middle of a job like it seems a lot of you do (too messy in a small workshop)


Waterstones, eh, Gidon...? :wink: :lol: 

Cheers, Alf


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## ydb1md (21 Nov 2005)

Alf":1zo48f10 said:


> Rob Lee":1zo48f10 said:
> 
> 
> > nothing wrong with A2 (and it is more popular)
> ...



Don't tell me that you and Rob are trying to get us all switch to the MkII power sharpener?! :norm: 
:wink:


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## gidon (21 Nov 2005)

Alf":1lee5k9m said:


> gidon":1lee5k9m said:
> 
> 
> > I don't tend to sharpen in the middle of a job like it seems a lot of you do (too messy in a small workshop)
> ...



What else?


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## Rob Lee (21 Nov 2005)

ydb1md":1tlk0eua said:


> (snip)
> 
> Don't tell me that you and Rob are trying to get us all switch to the MkII power sharpener?! :norm:
> :wink:



Hey - I LIKE waterstones....I just don't like like sharpening A2 on 'em, and I don't personally like diamond stones either....

I do have power sharpeners - but have always liked stones... somehow, it's part of the woodworking gestalt for me...

We all choose our own paths.... even though we're trying to get to the same place!

Cheers - 

Rob


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## MikeW (21 Nov 2005)

Rob Lee":uadnecaw said:


> ...HCS is personal choice for me... nothing wrong with A2 (and it is more popular) but I prefer to sharpen faster, and more often...


That's because you are a wise, wise man...as well as...


Rob Lee":uadnecaw said:


> ...Cost is also much less - and for the same price - one could have 2-3 HCS blades....


...having our spendthrift ways in mind...


Rob Lee":uadnecaw said:


> ...We will have HCS as an alternative across the board, once we've sorted out supply....Cheers - Rob


...and a generous one as well!

But just to make sure your first batch of HCS is well tempered and well formed, send a set to me and I'll give 'em a proper test... :lol: 

Take care, thank you for the info Rob.

Mike


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## Philly (21 Nov 2005)

I'm always a little bemused by the "A2 takes longer to sharpen" comments. I have a few Cliftons-I love the irons in them (HCS) and they sharpen easily. But when I have to sharpen an A2 blade it doesn't take THAT much more effort. What, a few extra swipes? :? 
Maybe I sharpen too often ( :^o ) and my blades only need a "touch-up", but I just don't have a problem. And for the record-I'm no fan of sharpening. It's a necessary evil. :wink: 
Comments?
Philly  
_Who is cruising for a bruising......_


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## Alf (21 Nov 2005)

ydb1md":2zl5j1oy said:


> Don't tell me that you and Rob are trying to get us all switch to the MkII power sharpener?! :norm:
> :wink:


I dread to think sometimes what Rob's trying to get us doing 8-[ :lol: , but for myself, ab-so-lute-ly not. You're looking at someone who's kicked the power grinder out of the workshop without a pang. It lives with the lathe now; a terrible tailed spinning cabal plotting to take over the garage. 8-[

Cheers, Alf


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## ydb1md (21 Nov 2005)

Rob Lee":hu1ix735 said:


> ydb1md":hu1ix735 said:
> 
> 
> > (snip)
> ...



I agree -- I like waterstones too. Somehow they're more organic and tactile.

I'm curious to try the HCS irons once they are released.


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## Alf (21 Nov 2005)

Philly":k0h62jnl said:


> I have a few Cliftons-I love the irons in them (HCS) and they sharpen easily. But when I have to sharpen an A2 blade it doesn't take THAT much more effort. What, a few extra swipes? :?


Try on oilstones.

And *before* everyone jumps on me and says "Ah ha, you dinosaur. See what happens when you use ancient rocks hewn from your neanderthal cave?" [-X ], I'd like to point out a few things. I _like_ oilstones. I like the feel of them under good carbon steel. A2 feels wrong. I like the fact I'm putting rust preventing oil on my tools rather than rust-inducing water. I like the fact they cost me peanuts...  I even like the smell of neatsfoot oil. I was happy with my oilstones, after much trying out of other systems, and had no desire to change having found sharpening happiness. I didn't want to have to play silly pippers (pardon my Klatchian) just to satisfy blasted A2 steel. 'Course a couple of blades I could cope with, and I didn't complain (much), 'cos it didn't take proportionally that much longer in the big sharpening scheme of things. But it's got hopelessly out of hand now. Everywhere I look there's A2 steel; which is nice in that I have new tools to play with, I grant you, but I hate sharpening too, and it gets me down. Once more I've ventured out into the "which sharpening system to use" wilderness, got hopelessly lost, and am struggling along learning a fresh system. You've absolutely no idea how much I hate it; it really depresses me that I've been chucked back to square one like this.

Sorry, what was the question? 

Oh yeah. I have theories (surprise) It's not each individual blade taking longer. It's _all_ those accumulated blades adding up to so much longer overall, I think. Plus, when you get in the sharpening groove, after a _lot_ of practice over the years, I think just a couple of seconds more can seem like an eternity. I'm no great shakes as a sharpener, but I like to flatter myself I'd reached the "hone and get back to work" stage. Added swipes seem like an awful lot extra effort when you've managed to pare down just how long it takes to touch up a blade edge to the absolute minimum. Also the longer it takes the more opportunity I have to muck it up... 

And I miss my oilstone. Did I mention that? Sharpened up my ordinary, bog standard steel pocket knife on it the other day. Done in a brace of shakes and wickedly sharp. Sigh.  

Cheers, Alf

Are they doing Olympic Ranting in 2012? I think I may be a dead cert for the team if I put in a little more practice...


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## MikeW (21 Nov 2005)

Philly":2i2u0m48 said:


> I'm always a little bemused by the "A2 takes longer to sharpen" comments. ...But when I have to sharpen an A2 blade it doesn't take THAT much more effort. What, a few extra swipes? :?
> Comments? Philly
> _Who is cruising for a bruising......_


Oh, you knew you'd get a response from me, didn't you? :lol: 

I have spent the last couple months counting strokes and time on two different powered sharpeners. What? How daft is that?

Really. I had a purpose. While strokes are dependent on more than mere iterations of end-to-end on a stone and are therefore somewhat subjective, the powered sharpeners are less so. More controlled conditions.

Simple observations would be that A2 and harder steels take both more back and forth iterations and a greater pressure, significantly so on the iterations imo. But count 'em. If you can refresh a HC blade in 10-15 (pick a number) strokes on 3 different stones and A2 took only 5 more per stone, what's the ratio? Now do that on the 3-4 planes you are typically using on a project. 1 to 3 times a day for me sometimes, at least for the larger bench planes.

But the difference is actually greater than that. The wear on the equipment (stones, PSA discs, etc) is also greater. I really do have to flatten my King waterstones more frequently when honing a batch of A2. With the Shaptons, it is less so, except on the lower grits.

I use Shaptons personally, which really do cut significantly faster than a waterstone. The reality is, one of the costs Rob is talking about has something to do with the post heat treatment processing. It simply takes longer and uses more materials than HCS. And, I believe, for very marginal benefits.

I can refresh a paring chisel in a couple strokes on a Shapton 2000 grit stone while working (it sits on the bench). Same with a plane iron. But, that's if they are HCS. When I need to do an A2, it does take longer.

But...these are personal observations. And to some degree personal bias. No one is attempting to convert anyone and is just good dialog.

Take care,

Mike


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## dedee (21 Nov 2005)

just supposin' I had a number of planes/chisels of varying makes and age. How would I know what they are made of?

Andy


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## Chris Knight (21 Nov 2005)

Andy,
A time honoured way is to touch the iron to a grindstone and look at the sparks. HC steel emits a shower of orange sparks with lots of forks off them. Other steels perform differently. I am sure there is a picture out there somewhere..


Here you go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing_metals


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## Alf (21 Nov 2005)

dedee":v1jcf3wi said:


> just supposin' I had a number of planes/chisels of varying makes and age. How would I know what they are made of?


I'll take a wild shot in the dark and guess "steel"...

Getting her coat, Alf


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## bugbear (21 Nov 2005)

> and the need for a steeper bevel angle on A2 chisels.



http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=bescset



> The bevel is flat ground at 30°, but a higher secondary bevel (about 35°) is advisable,



By all the lemmings of the nether Hells! You're right! Big of a pipper if you want an ultra-parer (e.g. 20 degree single bevel)

BugBear


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## Alf (21 Nov 2005)

bugbear":11wezryf said:


> By all the lemmings of the nether Hells!


That's right up there with "Rissoles", BB. 



bugbear":11wezryf said:


> You're right!


It has been known before... :roll: 

Apparently they jacked up the bevel angle 'cos the blooming things were chipping out. I have to say, had I realised that _before_ I bought them, I might have hesitated, oh, 30 seconds longer. As it is, a set in something other than A2 would be nice... Makes the long "paring" handles a bit redundant to my mind. :?

Cheers, Alf


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## ydb1md (21 Nov 2005)

Sooooo . . . . .

Is this one of those cases where newer seemed better, but it wasn't, so we had to fall back and punt?

:-k

If anyone suggests D2 plane blades do we get to tar and feather them?

:roll:


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## Midnight (22 Nov 2005)

> It's not each individual blade taking longer. It's all those accumulated blades adding up to so much longer overall, I think.



6 blades, all of em A2... 5 honed with the Mk2 and one freehand.. 10 mins done n dusted... no rust.... minimal mess.... zero hassle....

gotta looooooove waterstones.. 

a couple o quick wipes ofer the stone an its good t go...

<shrugs...

maybe its just me....


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## Anonymous (22 Nov 2005)

A2 for me without a doubt. I don't find it hard to sharpen at all on the fine DMT stone followed by the 6000 grit waterstone. 1 minute max. once in the honing guide

I'm interested in your point about HCS giving a sharper edge Chris. How did you determine this? Is it just the feel of the tool in use or some other way?

Also, how do you sharpen the A2's you have?


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## Alf (22 Nov 2005)

Tony":2bq79szs said:


> 1 minute max. once in the honing guide


1 minute *plus* honing guide set up time?! See? _Ages_ :roll:


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## bugbear (22 Nov 2005)

> I even like the smell of neatsfoot oil.



You must have a nice warm workshop.

In mine neatsfoot "oil" is more like neatsfoot wax.

I use (as recommend in Kingshott's old sharpening book) a mix of oil and white spirit AKA pick yer' own viscosity.

BugBear


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## Alf (22 Nov 2005)

bugbear":276wd28j said:


> You must have a nice warm workshop.


Only in the summer.



bugbear":276wd28j said:


> In mine neatsfoot "oil" is more like neatsfoot wax.


Same here, in the winter. I let it melt in front of the oil-filled rad until it's liquid enough to suck up with a syringe. Then I can push out a little worm of oil when I need it, regardless of whether it's hot or cold. Clever huh?

Cheers, Alf


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## ydb1md (22 Nov 2005)

Alf":1uf2hrve said:


> . . . I can push out a little worm of oil when I need it, . . .
> Cheers, Alf



Is that like "eye of newt?" I'm starting to worry about you alf. :roll:


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## Alf (22 Nov 2005)

ydb1md":32gz7ys8 said:


> I'm starting to worry about you alf. :roll:


Only _starting_, Dave? :lol:


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## ydb1md (22 Nov 2005)

Alf":8d6x9eur said:


> ydb1md":8d6x9eur said:
> 
> 
> > I'm starting to worry about you alf. :roll:
> ...



Well . . . . 

I thought that maybe the "eye of newt" and "worm of oil" was some sort of spell to make the A2 easier to sharpen until the HCS blades showed up.

:lol:


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## dedee (22 Nov 2005)

waterhead37":1kt6j9zl said:


> I am sure there is a picture out there somewhere..
> Here you go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing_metals



Thanks Chris , I found quite a number of very interesting articles on this subject but as I have yet to find the need to touch any of my plane irons to a grind stone I will have to assume, for the time being at least, that they are all just "steel".


Andy


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## Anonymous (22 Nov 2005)

cc.


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## Midnight (22 Nov 2005)

> See? Ages



as opposed to how long with your oily stuff..????


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## Alf (23 Nov 2005)

Midnight":nimlm9ay said:


> > See? Ages
> 
> 
> 
> as opposed to how long with your oily stuff..????


For the A2? Dunno - too long. For the ordinary steel, whatever it's supposed to be called, I've not timed it, but my gut feeling is it's a least half that. I wouldn't like to commit myself without the facts though, so when Rob's sorted out a supplier I'll find a stopwatch and let you know. :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Midnight (24 Nov 2005)

> so when Rob's sorted out a supplier I'll find a stopwatch and let you know.



now... would that be a bezel up or bezel down stop watch...????????

mannnn.... I gotta get out more.... :roll:


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