# Silk purse from a sow's ear? Any advice?



## Stan (24 Mar 2022)

I offered to clean up and sharpen a plane for someone as a favour. What they supplied "has issues".

It is a number 4 plane with "Silverline" on the lever cap. ( I am aware of its status in the world of planes! ) The iron is marked "record" and at some time in the past has been reground to a slight convex shape. The regrind, the make and general condition make me think it has been converted into a scrub plane.

I have spent a while lapping the sole using the following kit;







This is a piece of plate glass supplied by Veritas, guaranteed flat. I made a 3/4in plywood surround for it and the glass sits slightly proud in a recess to protect it. The plywood is then clamped in my workbench, which sits on a base I made with adjustable feet so it can be levelled and prevented from rocking on the ground. Standard wet and dry is clamped on just firm enough to hold it.

Results so far;






The heel and toe are coming up nicely. The sole appears to be concave in two dimensions. This I can mitigate, but the real horror is to come.


Resting the plane on its right and left sides;












The right side sits nice and firm.

The left - oh dear. Yes, that is a gap. When I press the left side flat at the rear this is what I get. The plane rocks in both dimensions like a banana. ( Perhaps I should paint it yellow ).

I don't have the facility to machine the side square. Am I just going to have to put up with it, or can anything be done?


----------



## Against_The_Grain (24 Mar 2022)

Unless your friend is left handed and using it in a shooting board I wouldn’t give two hoots about the squareness or flatness of the sides.


----------



## Droogs (24 Mar 2022)

Don't try to do anything to the sole without the frog and the iron being insitu. The reason for this is that the tensions withing the sole casting are in different places and act in different directions to when the plane is complete and when it is in pieces. The cast sole will "relax" when the frog and iron are removed. This means that if you then sort it out and flatten it, when the thing is back together it will not be so.

Put it back together with the blade just above being able to protrude. Start with 120g and a lot of fluid on the paper. Mark the sole completely in sharpie and then rub exactly along the length axis back and forth. After a dozen strokes see where the sharpie has been removed to get a picture of how out it is.
Work the plane until the following areas are level (you do not need the entire sole to be so) -
The Toe (front edge of the plane
The mouth (the area to the from and back of the slot for the iron about 1/4" either side
The Heel (the back edge of the plane.

Once these are level step up to the next grit and repeat until you get to around 1k

The plane will then be true and usable provided you sort out the iron with a slight camber ie an arc with a height of 4 or 5mm in the middle compared to the side corners.

hth


----------



## paulrbarnard (24 Mar 2022)

Droogs said:


> ie an arc with a height of 4 or 5mm in the middle compared to the side corners.


I agree with all you said except this bit. That’s quit a camber for a smoothing plane.


----------



## Droogs (24 Mar 2022)

My baad fingers on the wrong buttons should be 1 or 2mm. Typing while fighting the dog  for a soggy yucky fluffy thing


----------



## Jameshow (24 Mar 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> I agree with all you said except this bit. That’s quit a camber for a smoothing plane.


I have that much camber on a scrubbing plane - great for cleaning up dirty / rough boards and as a toolbox plane!

Mines a wickes model!


----------



## cowtown_eric (25 Mar 2022)

ain't nothing said about how you have to fix everything at one go to join the flat sole society. As far as I know, the Tool God will on;ly shine on those worthy......s tell them that the tool could be refined, and maybe that sends them down the path or rhikenology!, and suddeny yu become an "oldtools" enabler!!!


----------



## Stan (25 Mar 2022)

cowtown_eric said:


> ain't nothing said about how you have to fix everything at one go to join the flat sole society. As far as I know, the Tool God will on;ly shine on those worthy......s tell them that the tool could be refined, and maybe that sends them down the path or rhikenology!, and suddeny yu become an "oldtools" enabler!!!


 

Eh?

I need to punctuate that correctly. I don't fancy being labelled an "old tool".

Thanks for the advice everyone. Droogs - I had forgotten the point re leaving the frog attached. Extra thanks.

I have a 1954 copy of "Planecraft", which I am using to help me stumble along the path from ignorance to enlightenment. For a scrub plane it recommends a camber with a centre height of between 1/64 and 1/32 of an inch, i.e. less than 1mm. This particular plane is about 4mm.


----------



## Recky33 (25 Mar 2022)

Is this " favour " going to end up as a scrub or are you trying to get it back as a No4 ? If a scrub it's ok as it is, just sharpen it, the idea is to get stuff down fast, just remember a big camber set shallow works fast, a small camber set deep tires you out very quickly, If it's going back to a No4 don't make any plans for the next month or so as you are about to fall out with the idea of doing favours


----------



## --Tom-- (25 Mar 2022)

Just sharpen it and get it working, you’ll chase diminishing returns with time that could have been spent on something much more fun


----------



## D_W (25 Mar 2022)

strong aluminum oxide paper next time rather than silicon carbide. Silicon carbide's intended for alloy steel with carbide. It's fragile and it breaks - you want something tough that will stay coarse under pressure. 

That's often the inexpensive, gray, white or yellow alumina (not stearated or coated unless the coating is shallow or almost not there). 

Unless that casting is extremely hard, it would generally take me about 5 minutes to remove that on 80 grit mirka gold roll. Sheets would be OK if it's a decent brand with heavy enough paper - roll with adhesive is need if you want to do this several more times (brand doesn't matter, just decent quality). 80 grit al-ox roll here is often in the $12 range for 10 yards by 4 inches.


----------



## clogs (25 Mar 2022)

D_W
long time since I heard Yards..... a bit like £'s, shillings and pence....lol....


----------



## D_W (25 Mar 2022)

except we know what yards are in the US. Both types!! I'd have to study the old English money system 400 times to be able to read old catalogs and have a clue which item cost more than another.

Just guessing on what's still sold by the yard here:
* sandpaper rolls
* fabric
* garden stuff (cubic yard)
* probably still concrete (not exactly something I buy every day).
* carpet

Not to mention, american football goes by yards.

Little weird to see scandinavian sandpaper with yards on it, though.

guessing a lot of that stuff is still in yards for fear of losing the older customers. When we all have chips implanted and everything becomes nonverbal, we won't have to worry about converting it.


----------



## Orraloon (27 Mar 2022)

A yard is a meter thats been short changed by 3 and a bit inches. 
I got used to both systems as when Britain changed over the change was so gradual they still have not finished it after 50 years. When I came to Australia everything was metric as they did the change in one go. Picked a date, said thats changed and job done. Quite happy and can work with both systems but do most of my woodwork in feet and inches as I can visualize that better.
I always look for a tape or rule that has both measurements.
Regards
John


----------



## Peri (27 Mar 2022)

D_W said:


> I'd have to study the old English money system 400 times



Dead easy.

"Two farthings = One Ha'penny. ​Two ha'pennies = One Penny. ​Three pennies = A Thrupenny Bit. ​Two Thrupences = A Sixpence. ​Two Sixpences = One Shilling, or Bob. ​Two Bob = A Florin. ​One Florin and One Sixpence = Half a Crown. ​Four Half Crowns = Ten Bob Note. ​Two Ten Bob Notes = One Pound (or 240 pennies). ​Once Pound and One Shilling = One Guinea.​
The British resisted decimalized currency for a long time because they thought it was too complicated.” ​​(Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett)


----------



## Bod (27 Mar 2022)

Peri said:


> Dead easy.​​"Two farthings = One Ha'penny. ​Two ha'pennies = One Penny. ​Three pennies = A Thrupenny Bit. ​Two Thrupences = A Sixpence. ​Two Sixpences = One Shilling, or Bob. ​Two Bob = A Florin. ​One Florin and One Sixpence = Half a Crown. ​Four Half Crowns = Ten Bob Note. ​Two Ten Bob Notes = One Pound (or 240 pennies). ​Once Pound and One Shilling = One Guinea.​​The British resisted decimalized currency for a long time because they thought it was too complicated.” ​​(Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett)



A cheap ice-cream costs £1.50p or 30 bob (£.s.d) Inflation?

Bod


----------



## raffo (27 Mar 2022)

What's a pence?


----------



## Peri (27 Mar 2022)

Several pennies I reckon.

Sixpennies become sixpence, threepennies becomes thrupence.

I was 3 when we went decimal - it's all a bit before my time


----------



## raffo (27 Mar 2022)

The transition from Penny to pence is missing in the list  glad i didn't have to deal with all that.


----------



## Chris70 (28 Mar 2022)

… and a sixpence was also known as a tanner. Or was that only in Geordieland?


----------



## nickds1 (28 Mar 2022)

Chris70 said:


> … and a sixpence was also known as a tanner. Or was that only in Geordieland?


According to the Royal Mint (Coin Nicknames | The Royal Mint) the name "tanner" comes from a Romany word...


----------



## Woody Alan (28 Mar 2022)

​
d = penny (for 'denarius', a Roman silver coin)


----------



## stuart little (28 Mar 2022)

Orraloon said:


> A yard is a meter thats been short changed by 3 and a bit inches.
> I got used to both systems as when Britain changed over the change was so gradual they still have not finished it after 50 years. When I came to Australia everything was metric as they did the change in one go. Picked a date, said thats changed and job done. Quite happy and can work with both systems but do most of my woodwork in feet and inches as I can visualize that better.
> I always look for a tape or rule that has both measurements.
> Regards
> John


If the change-over took that long, imagine the chaos if changing from RHD to LHD.


----------



## stuart little (28 Mar 2022)

Peri said:


> Several pennies I reckon.
> 
> Sixpennies become sixpence, threepennies becomes thrupence.
> 
> I was 3 when we went decimal - it's all a bit before my time


In Ireland 2 pennies was 'twopence'.


----------



## stuart little (28 Mar 2022)

raffo said:


> What's a pence?


1 pence = 1/100 of a GBP [£]


----------



## Johnwa (28 Mar 2022)

Raffo, Pence is just the term used in the UK decimal currency system for a new penny which was equivalent to 2.4 old pennies, it was used as an alternative to cent" The we don't want any of that Johny foreigner malarkey here dontcha know" attitude was still prevalent in the "Establishment" in those days. Also by the way, we used to call 2/6 (two shillings and sixpence also known as half a crown) half a dollar just to add a little colour to the mix .


----------



## Droogs (28 Mar 2022)

Nearly all the names used for british currency have foreign origin even the pound. The £ symbol is taken from the Roman army and actually mean Libre pond a part of a legionaries wages paid in pound weights of salt. This was done as it was then easier for the trooper to then barter trade for items he needed or wanted with the locals, who invariably lived far from sources of salt but needed it to preserve meat etc.


----------



## Concizat (28 Mar 2022)

stuart little said:


> If the change-over took that long, imagine the chaos if changing from RHD to LHD.


Sweden did it a while back


----------



## bluenose (28 Mar 2022)

6 of chips and a piece of fish please.

6 of chips was sixpence or a tanner Piece of fish was a shilling or a bob as per Peri at #15. So fish and chips equates to 7.5p in todays money.

And yes I am an old wrinkley


----------



## John Hall (28 Mar 2022)

I’m wondering if you maybe going over the top regarding (sharpening) the plane…is it going to used for precision work or general use?…is all that hardwork going to be worthwhile and appreciate?


----------



## Stan (28 Mar 2022)

John Hall said:


> I’m wondering if you maybe going over the top regarding (sharpening) the plane…is it going to used for precision work or general use?…is all that hardwork going to be worthwhile and appreciate?




I didn't explain myself properly at the beginning. This is a "thank you" for some enormous help, so I will invest whatever time it takes to produce the best work I can. I offered to recondition a plane, and this was the item provided.







The above shows the upper metalwork after grot and loose rust has been removed. The knob has been sanded and oiled and awaits waxing. The handle has a crack, so after sanding to remove the old flakey varnish, I have glued the crack. Oiling/waxing to be done.








I was using the corrosion as a guide to flatness instead of marker pen. As can be seen above it is vastly improved, but has moved on since this was taken. Sole and cheeks have been waxed to prevent new rust and upperworks have been lightly sanded and painted.

A couple of oddities:

The cap iron is from Record and has been painted black at some stage.

The iron is only 1 15/16 in wide instead of 2in, ( as well as its camber ). I am sourcing a replacement iron to avoid a regrind. Anyone know what would use the smaller size?

Thanks for advice and interest.


----------



## Bod (28 Mar 2022)

Record used 2" blades in the later T5 planes, aimed at the schools market.
I fear a Record replacement will be hard to find.
Some No.4 smoothers also used 2" blades.

Bod.


----------



## Keith Cocker (29 Mar 2022)

Chris70 said:


> … and a sixpence was also known as a tanner. Or was that only in Geordieland?


In Lancashire too. As my dad used to sing:

“Rule Britannia ! Two tanners make a bob
Three make eighteen pence
And four two bob”


----------



## okeydokey (29 Mar 2022)

Don't forget the Groat - a fourpenny bit


----------



## Keith Cocker (29 Mar 2022)

Johnwa said:


> The we don't want any of that Johny foreigner malarkey here dontcha know" attitude was still prevalent in the "Establishment" in those days.


And now it’s been passed onto to at least 51% of the population


----------



## J-G (30 Mar 2022)

Peri said:


> The British resisted decimalized currency for a long time because they thought it was too complicated.


I've only just come across this thread so I'm a bit late responding but that statement is so wrong!!

The 'Florin' introduced in 1849 was the UK's first attempt to change to 'Decimal' currency. At 2 shillings or 24 pence (d) it was 1/10 of a pound (20s or 240d). The fact that the original design came in for some derision - since it omitted the words 'Dei Gratia' (by the Gace of God) or even the abreviation 'D.G.' - caused it to became known as the 'Godless Florin' and may have had an impact on the decimalization not proceeding further.

The incsription on the reverce of the 1849 coin had " ONE FLORIN ONE TENTH OF A POUND " intended to promote the decimal experiment.


----------



## J-G (30 Mar 2022)

Keith Cocker said:


> “Rule Britannia ! Two tanners make a bob
> Three make eighteen pence
> And four two bob”


or even "three make one and six" which is what we sang in the midlands.


----------



## clogs (30 Mar 2022)

the Swede's made left hand drive cars for the home market years before they changed...
meaning u could only by LHD cars for about 10 years or so....
The day of change (remembering all the road signs had been changed prev).....
there was a blanket speed limit of say 30mph.....then over a few days it increased...
typically as in that part of the world it was all well organised ....

If they tried it here what would the snowflakes and woke brigade make of it...?
guess they'd all have a dicky fit and jump of a cliff...
perhaps it would be a good thing to try it just for that...hahaha....


----------



## clogs (30 Mar 2022)

also when in Calif they tried to change the fuel to liters.....
seem to remeber almost a riot and it got changed back again to UR short gallon....
what daya use now.....?

I can just remember going with my dad to buy a new suit...the price was in Guinea's..
dont they still use Guine's in horse racing ....?

u come here for wood related subjects and sort the world out......hahaha...


----------



## Stan (29 Apr 2022)

Renovation finished. Plane being fitted to box under construction.







There is a crack in the handle. I fixed it by rubbing in a small amount of wood glue and letting it dry, repeating a few times.











Box construction completed. Awaits choice of wood finish. I am thinking of a mid/dark brown stain followed by a couple of coats of matt varnish. Any suggestions/advice?

The yellow gunk in the plastic pot is home-made wax for the wooden parts and sole. The brush and steel wool are for keeping it clean. Under the brush is the original iron, completely cleaned, heavily waxed and wrapped in bubble wrap for storage. I sourced a new iron and sharpened it as the original had been cambered to make a scrub.


----------



## Inspector (29 Apr 2022)

Someone is special to have had you make honey out of dog #### and a box too! Well done.

Pete


----------



## Droogs (29 Apr 2022)

A very nice restoration to a level that look right for using rather than sitting on a shelf and being for looking. Well done


----------



## Orraloon (30 Apr 2022)

Thats as near to a silk purse as could be done. Great restoration.
There is however one thing you have not done. It is a serious breach of forum law to do up a plane and not post pics of it making shavings
Regards
John


----------



## pe2dave (30 Apr 2022)

Keith Cocker said:


> In Lancashire too. As my dad used to sing:
> 
> “Rule Britannia ! Two tanners make a bob
> Three make eighteen pence
> And four two bob”


Three one and sixpence
and four two bob

was our version (on the better side of the Pennines ;-) )


----------



## jcassidy (30 Apr 2022)

Can i ask how you cleaned up the lever cap? That's the one thing i generally leave alone. Thanks


----------



## Thingybob (30 Apr 2022)

Droogs said:


> My baad fingers on the wrong buttons should be 1 or 2mm. Typing while fighting the dog  for a soggy yucky fluffy thing


Wife in the workshop again eh


----------



## Stan (30 Apr 2022)

jcassidy said:


> Can i ask how you cleaned up the lever cap? That's the one thing i generally leave alone. Thanks



I removed all corrosion etc as usual. Then flaking parts of the metal electroplating removed using fine grade wet/dry. WD40 degreaser, followed by two coats of hammerite smooth silver. Purists may be horrified by this, but this plane is never going to be a museum piece. The paint reduces corrosion as well as being nicer to look at than ugly blotches. For the logo backing, I used Humbrol gloss enamel in the closest shade I could find to the original.

When I get around to it I will "up my game" and teach myself electroplating.

Filing the cam on the lever to a usable shape was probably the hardest part to get right.


----------



## Auldfart2010 (1 May 2022)

Chris70 said:


> … and a sixpence was also known as a tanner. Or was that only in Geordieland?


I remember getting a slap from me mum for calling it a Tanner.


----------



## Pedronicus (2 May 2022)

.


----------



## whiskywill (3 May 2022)

stuart little said:


> 1 pence = 1/100 of a GBP [£]



No it isn't. Pence is the plural of penny so is anything more than a single penny.


----------



## MikeJhn (17 Nov 2022)

I used to get a slap from my woodwork teacher if I put a plane down on its sole.


----------

