# Sharpening



## Bingy man (9 Jul 2022)

I’ve read several posts that seem to be quite negative towards the topic of sharpening. I’ve not been a member for that long but every now and again the subject of sharpening comes up and it’s never positive. Given that it’s a fundamental part of woodworking and can greatly affect your results I just wondered why this is . I personally don’t have an issue with sharpening but I can imagine it must be really difficult for newcomers and those that have never used hand tools but rely on power tools ( don’t shout me down as I’ve no intentions to start such a thread ) just interested as to the reasons why it’s not liked ..


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## TRITON (9 Jul 2022)

Perhaps you could first explain how you go about the sharpening conundrum.

Everyone's always keen to learn and hear other peoples techniques


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## ajs (9 Jul 2022)

It's time consuming and to begin with it's largely a thankless task. I don't think it helps that a full set of equipment is expensive and the like of Stanley will flog you a 400/1000 grit stone as if it is all you need.

Never used to like sharpening until a couple of years ago I decided the time had come to invest is a quality minimal set of "lifetime" chisels and I really needed to get to grips with sharpening. Those four chisels and a roll were around £100. The sharpening kit on top of that - four grades of cheap Japanese waterstones, nagura, strop, compound and honing guide were another £50 on top. That's a bit of a leap of faith when I'd never had much luck in the past.

However I found with the appropriate kit chisels actually weren't that difficult, it was simply a matter of working methodically and putting in the time. Crucially I began to see results - wonderfully sharp edges. Cosmetically, too - there's a certain pride in attaining and maintaining that distinctive glimmer of well ground blades.

Once I had the kit and a bit of practice slowly I began to find other things were sharpening better, although to be honest I was still not completely happy until only a couple of months ago. I pulled out my pocket knife for some ad hoc pruning of a rose bush and thought to myself "**** me, that's a sharp knife".

As for secrets or great insights picked up along the way the only thing that comes to mind is to put a few drops of rapeseed oil on the strop before applying the compound. The oil softens the compound up and allows it to penetrate into the leather rather that sitting on the surface and quickly flaking off.


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## Woody2Shoes (9 Jul 2022)

Bingy man said:


> I’ve read several posts that seem to be quite negative towards the topic of sharpening. I’ve not been a member for that long but every now and again the subject of sharpening comes up and it’s never positive. Given that it’s a fundamental part of woodworking and can greatly affect your results I just wondered why this is . I personally don’t have an issue with sharpening but I can imagine it must be really difficult for newcomers and those that have never used hand tools but rely on power tools ( don’t shout me down as I’ve no intentions to start such a thread ) just interested as to the reasons why it’s not liked ..


I think you may have misunderstood. It's not sharpening, but the discussing of it that is a bit like having a joke repeatedly explained to you.

Sharpening is a 'gateway skill' and it need not take long or be arduous. I, and I suspect I am not alone in this, quite enjoy creating a razor sharp edge and the positive effect it has on my work.

What I think everyone dislikes on woodworking forums is getting into long, often boring and in the end nearly always contentious discussions about the merits/demerits of different techniques. In short, there are many ways to achieve the desired result - all of them have their place.


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## Inspector (9 Jul 2022)

One would think that as description of the method a person uses would be enough leaving the user to decide which way they would like to go. There are however people that believe they know everything and their way is the only way. That my way or the highway thinking makes them get nasty and constantly push, nit pick, fight, scratch (with their perfectly sharpened claws ) and beat the dead horse proving they are the best and everyone else is an silly person for doing what works for them. The childish intolerance is what makes sharpening threads such a #### show. Sad.

Pete


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## Droogs (9 Jul 2022)

@Bingy man It is commented on in a negative way as in the past threads discussing it have almost lead to people going round the corner and landing physical blows. For some in the woodworking community take sharpening to be a divine process where the use of Dodo tears for lubrication, the rubbing on the different taste areas of a Unicorns tongue (Where each taste has a differing grit) followed by a final buffing using fairy navel fluff and Sasquatch poo are the only permitted methods. Admittedly most of these near fiights involve evryone want to go round @Jacob ' s corner 
and punch him for just dragging his chisel on the pavement.


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## Argus (9 Jul 2022)

It has turned into a sport on this forum...... simultaneously a joke at the expense of those who don't realise what's going on.

You have to get a 'sharpening' topic started, continue undetected and then play by winding up the 'gurus' and seeing how long you can keep it going until one of the robots shut it down.

In reality, basic blade and chisel sharpening is something that was done routinely and quickly by the woodworking trades in previous decades and in previous centuries without much theorising or loss of valuable working time.


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

The problem is that the subject of sharpening has been completely revised and rewritten in recent years. Wouldn't matter except that modern methods are difficult, time wasting, expensive and not particularly efficient. 
It's a bit strange - maybe sharpening attracts OCDC sufferers!
I don't think they do beginners any favours.
It took me some time to realise this myself and it was a great relief to get back to the old and easy ways!
There's also some downright ripoffery going on, e.g. magic "honing" fluids which cost more than top quality whiskey ( I name no names!)


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

ajs said:


> It's time consuming and to begin with it's largely a thankless task. I don't think it helps that a full set of equipment is expensive ......


Need not be expensive, nor time consuming and can also be quite a pleasant little diversion. 
n.b. you don't need the "full set of equipment" talked about by modern sharpening enthusiasts - they are in a world of their own!


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Jul 2022)

OP - there's your answer. There is only one way to sharpen anything, so no point in discussing it further. Research old threads - they all end the same way.


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## TRITON (9 Jul 2022)

I actually like the subject of sharpening, mainly as its a barrel full of laughs with those convoluted devices on ebay or amazon that swivel or arc at just the X angle to produce 'wicked sharp' edge in only a matter of minutes. 

Gone are the simple eclipse type honing guide on a well hollowed India oil stone that's lived in the shed since time immemorial , in favour of a Heath Robinson approach with bench mounted, double jointed bars and intermediary diamond stones.


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> OP - there's your answer. There is only one way to sharpen anything, so no point in discussing it further. Research old threads - they all end the same way.


There are dozens of ways but the quick and easy ways tend to be very similar!


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## D_W (9 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Need not be expensive, nor time consuming and can also be quite a pleasant little diversion.
> n.b. you don't need the "full set of equipment" talked about by modern sharpening enthusiasts - they are in a world of their own!



Who are these straw people?

I've not see one specific method described for fine work, but this past week found separating grinding and honing and finishing the edge at a higher angle than the grind by the modern gurus in ....

holtzapffel in the 1870s. 

Their other comment was that the grinder or grinding stone would be the most missed piece of equipment if it were missing from the tool kit of tool care and sharpening in a worker's shop.

One grinder, one oilstone. the option to use emery as described in a couple of places. 

Grind the tool, properly sharpen just the tip of it on an oilstone. Leave the rest of the time wasting outside of those two things to fools. 

For everyone else, the reason the sharpening bits go sideways is because everyone wants to describe a method, not the results. focusing on the former and not the latter is a good way to spend several minutes to sharpen something when one minute is fine and will yield a better result.


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## Terry - Somerset (9 Jul 2022)

If one contemplates the work of woodworkers of yesteryear, and reflect on the quality of their output, it is clear they were entirely capable of sharpening a chisel or plane.

Some tasks are faster with power tools (eg: thicknessing, sawing, routing), absolute precision and repeatability have improved, but the quality of the produced has changed little.

Motor assisted sharpening (Veritas, grinding wheels etc) may make the process faster. But if the quality using traditional methods was acceptable, a profusion of different stones, jigs, potions, etc create only the illusion of improvement over the methods used by our great great grandfathers! 

The message - keep it simple, stick to one method (whatever it is), practice and become proficient. Do not be tempted into butterfly mode sampling different techniques in the hope it will compensate for a lack of diligence.


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## MikeO (9 Jul 2022)

Most people give up turning because of sharpening. You don't sharpen lathe tools weekly more like hourly.
I have Sorby Pro Edge which is expensive but best thing I ever bought It takes seconds to touch up once you get profile right.


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## Adam W. (9 Jul 2022)

I've just had the weirdest feeling of déjà vu.

Must be a glitch in the matrix.


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## MikeK (9 Jul 2022)

Argus said:


> ... until one of the *robots* shut it down.



Was that really necessary?


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## Droogs (9 Jul 2022)

There there @MikeK don't feel bad, just include on of those Capchta things when *you *lock a thread and we'll all know it has received the human touch


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Jul 2022)

MikeO said:


> Most people give up turning because of sharpening. You don't sharpen lathe tools weekly more like hourly.
> I have Sorby Pro Edge which is expensive but best thing I ever bought It takes seconds to touch up once you get profile right.


You make them last an hour? Really?


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## Kittyhawk (9 Jul 2022)

From what I've discerned about the demon sharpening thread, this feels like a bit of a venture into the dark side...
I have planes and chisels and I sharpen them to an edge that satisfies my requirements. For the sake of peace I'm not going state my method but, if your method produces a result with which you are content and my method does the same, what's the problem?


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

MikeO said:


> Most people give up turning because of sharpening. You don't sharpen lathe tools weekly more like hourly.
> I have Sorby Pro Edge which is expensive but best thing I ever bought It takes seconds to touch up once you get profile right.


Bin there dunnit sold my Pro Edge. Sanding disc which came with my lathe, on headstock, does it better and costs F.A.


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You make them last an hour? Really?


Exactly. Has to be a little and often - which is one good reason for doing them freehand on an oil stone - just a little dab every few minutes, like sharpening a pencil when you are drawing a lot. After a while you hardly notice you are doing it. Or sanding disc on outboard end if more work is needed.


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## Adam W. (9 Jul 2022)

My bet is five pages before Metal Mickey shuts it down.


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## mikej460 (9 Jul 2022)

and off we go....


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> My bet is five pages before Metal Mickey shuts it down.


It's a lot better than it was!
I used to gets death threats when I mentioned _rounded_ bevels (well it felt like it) but little by little these things are becoming normalised. Again, that is, they always were!
Sharpening chisels—forget weaker micro bevels - Paul Sellers' Blog 
Sensible Sellers has got there but he's still effin about with those expensive and unnecessary diamond stones! He still has some way to go!
PS bin there dunnit again - I bought the same EZElap set (£200 ish  ) but realised they were really poor value for money and sold them on. Maybe Sellers bought them?


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

Jigs aren't all bad - I quite rate this early design-







It'll help a beginner hit 30 or 25º and after a few goes he can do it visually without the jig.
Later ones get problematic and make life increasingly difficult. Each new improved design is worse than the previous one.


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## Argus (9 Jul 2022)

@Bingy man

See what I mean?
Tour de France, Wimbledon *and* a sharpening thread!
All in one week!
Summer's here!


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

Argus said:


> @Bingy man
> 
> See what I mean?
> Tour de France, Wimbledon *and* a sharpening thread!


by popular demand!


Argus said:


> All in one week!
> Summer's here!


 And Johnson gone!! (nearly)


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## Fitzroy (9 Jul 2022)

Oh go on I’ll bite and put my tuppence in. Someone earlier called sharpening a gateway skill and I quite like that as it is a skill you have to master.

For virtually all my skills I’ve learnt them in person with an instructor. They will pick you up on your errors and answer any questions you have. 

I think many woodworkers are self taught, perhaps self guessed, from books or the internet. Knowing how to hold a plane blade to sharpen freehand with a couple of strokes is IMHO tough to learn from these sources. It‘s easier to get consistent results from a jig/guide that you can routinely place a blade in at a fixed position then repeat a set of predefined actions on a set of flat surfaces of different grits. 

In my early woodworking this consistency was priceless, and still is on occasion. It helped me learn what a sharp edge felt like in use and to recognise when I got sharpening wrong. It meant I could take a knackered plane blade and bring it back into use.

After a while I began to recognise a good edge at the correct angle and found that I could use a simpler quicker approach to sharpening by hand/feel. However when I screw up an edge I still fall back to a guide to get it back in shape. I find over the years I use the guide less and less perhaps one day I’ll loose it permanently in one of my drawers or doom. 

I think sharpening threads can become argumentative as people often end up in two camps with their sharpening journey. Those who have found hand sharpening nirvana and ditched their guides want to help others convert sooner and avoid the expense/pain of any wasted time. People who just can’t get to grips with hand sharpening (see what I did there  ) cannot believe it’s possible to get effective results without a jig and want to help others avoid the painful hours they spent pre jig.

It can all be a bit of a religious experience. 

Fitz.


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## woodieallen (9 Jul 2022)

I don't understand the difficulty. Don't you get your man to do it for you ?


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## Jacob (9 Jul 2022)

Fitzroy said:


> Oh go on I’ll bite and put my tuppence in. Someone earlier called sharpening a gateway skill and I quite like that as it is a skill you have to master.
> .....


Yes but you have to _start_ doing it and give it a few goes _before_ you buy a jig - or you'll never crack it!
20 minutes or so, good if you have someone showing you how.


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## Marcusthehat (9 Jul 2022)

I finally bought a Trend 300/1000 diamond stone/hone(which kit truely was a revelation to use), plus the recommended stropping kit.
I only sharpen a few chisels, a plane and a home made scrapers recently, but I feel I get them sharp enough for my needs with this combo. I do it by eye, feel and judgement. I am in no way a perfectionist but if the tool cuts end grain hardwood cleanly it is sharp enough for me. I also sharpen a chainsaw using my eye and the basic wee file guide. This also works most acceptably.
Nuff said.


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## Inspector (9 Jul 2022)

Well this is the point I will unsubscribe from this thread as nothing new will be allowed to come of it.

01000111 01101111 01101111 01100100 01100010 01111001 01100101 00101110 

Pete


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## Orraloon (10 Jul 2022)

Inspector said:


> One would think that as description of the method a person uses would be enough leaving the user to decide which way they would like to go. There are however people that believe they know everything and their way is the only way. That my way or the highway thinking makes them get nasty and constantly push, nit pick, fight, scratch (with their perfectly sharpened claws ) and beat the dead horse proving they are the best and everyone else is an silly person for doing what works for them. The childish intolerance is what makes sharpening threads such a #### show. Sad.
> 
> Pete


Could not have said it any better than that.
Regards
John


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## billgiles (10 Jul 2022)

From the way people go on about sharpening it seems that sharpening is becoming a competitive sport. Welcome to the sharpening Olympiad of 2023 fellow woodworkers. It is a bit like fly casting competitions, all very well in itself but does not catch any fish. 

Perhaps our sharpening enthusiasts are merely trying to justify their vast expense on exotic means of getting a fine edge - mainly to shave one’s forearms it seems.


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## pe2dave (10 Jul 2022)

Argus said:


> In reality, basic blade and chisel sharpening is something that was done routinely and quickly by the woodworking trades in previous decades and in previous centuries without much theorising or loss of valuable working time.


When it was just 'part of the job'. when it's (not) part of the fun, a different tale. My way or nothing seems common (see previous comments) is the spoiler. Perhaps this is saying "I've learned the hard way, you must do the same".
Find something rough and abrade the edge till sharp is the basis. It works, but how well is another story.


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## Ollie78 (10 Jul 2022)

billgiles said:


> From the way people go on about sharpening it seems that sharpening is becoming a competitive sport. Welcome to the sharpening Olympiad of 2023.



Well in Japan they kind of do have a sharpening/ plane setup contest. They try to shave a perfect shaving from a long beam, not sure the actual victory criteria, whether the thinner shaving wins or the most consistent etc. It's quite fun to watch.

Ollie


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## Adam W. (10 Jul 2022)

Inspector said:


> Well this is the point I will unsubscribe from this thread as nothing new will be allowed to come of it.
> 
> 01000111 01101111 01101111 01100100 01100010 01111001 01100101 00101110
> 
> Pete


Is there anything new?


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Is there anything new?





Inspector said:


> Well this is the point I will unsubscribe from this thread as nothing new will be allowed to come of it.
> 
> 01000111 01101111 01101111 01100100 01100010 01111001 01100101 00101110
> 
> Pete


01011001 01101111 01110101 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01100010 01100101 00100000 01100010 01100001 01100011 01101011 00100001


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## Adam W. (10 Jul 2022)

01001001 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110000 01101111 01110000 01100011 01101111 01110010 01101110 00101110


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## John Brown (10 Jul 2022)

Come on guys, who uses Boris these days? Unicode, please.


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## Argus (10 Jul 2022)

There's a temptation to ease this nonsense into a completely non-binary direction.


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## hlvd (10 Jul 2022)

I’m always amazed at the batdung crazy people on this Reddit and how they take sharpening to ridiculous levels.

I’m not even sure if the things they sharpen are actually used, it’s all about just sharpening 









r/sharpening


r/sharpening: A subreddit for sharpening edged tools.




www.reddit.com


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## Bingy man (10 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> Perhaps you could first explain how you go about the sharpening conundrum.
> 
> Everyone's always keen to learn and hear other peoples techniques


Ok a fabulous response from all contributors-now I get it and can see why this subject is contentious and often ends in verbal fisty cuffs . Well I looked at several options as my original method was a Stanley honing guide which gave good results but not very accurate. I looked at the axi ultimate edge system and the tormek but both to expensive with the additional jigs reqd . So in short I purchased the veritas deluxe honing guide as it gives me all the angles I’ll need in my life and the scary sharp set up . The tormek and the u/ edge would have spent most of there life parked up collecting dust so with the money saved by going with s/s and veritas I purchased a set of quality chisels for best work . On a personal note I find sharpening both boring and relentless but also therapeutic when you end up with that razor sharp mirror polished edge . The set up works for me , it’s cheap as every now and again I’ll order a few sheets of the abrasive to keep me stocked up . Thanks for all replies please don’t send the heavies around


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## Bingy man (10 Jul 2022)

Did say in original post that I had no intention of starting such a thread , I happy with the answers and will consider this thread closed - one of my favourite sayings is - each to their own !! What works for one may not suit another.. great input and thanks again


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## morqthana (10 Jul 2022)

57 00 68 00 61 00 74 00 20 00 61 00 62 00 6F 00 75 00 74 00 20 00 73 00 68 00 61 00 72 00 70 00 65 00 6E 00 69 00 6E 00 67 00 20 00 74 00 77 00 69 00 73 00 74 00 20 00 64 00 72 00 69 00 6C 00 6C 00 73 00 3F 00


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2022)

ajs said:


> ..... the like of Stanley will flog you a 400/1000 grit stone as if it is all you need.
> 
> .....


It is, almost. If that's all you had you'd get by.
That's my whole point.
I'd go for a Norton IB8 in preference, or any of the trad offerings of a similar spec.
Plus a tin of oil and a some oily rags
I have added a Norton "0" which has a finer side. Also a leather pad plus autosol for stropping.
I also use my lathe for stropping - MDF disc at slowest speed on the outboard end, smear of autosol and very fast high polish almost instant on a small chisel.
Really good for gouges too and you can do the inside on the edge of the mdf wheel.
Some ops really need a polished edge and you can feel the difference.


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## niall Y (10 Jul 2022)

Well, you did set this particular ' Hare ' running and I have to say that, so far,the 'Hounds' have been remarkably well behaved.


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## John Brown (10 Jul 2022)

Binary is so much slower than hex, although still doable. Octal is unreadable for me.


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## John Brown (10 Jul 2022)

morqthana said:


> 57 00 68 00 61 00 74 00 20 00 61 00 62 00 6F 00 75 00 74 00 20 00 73 00 68 00 61 00 72 00 70 00 65 00 6E 00 69 00 6E 00 67 00 20 00 74 00 77 00 69 00 73 00 74 00 20 00 64 00 72 00 69 00 6C 00 6C 00 73 00 3F 00


One day I'll get the hang of drills. For now I view them as disposable items.


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2022)

morqthana said:


> 57 00 68 00 61 00 74 00 20 00 61 00 62 00 6F 00 75 00 74 00 20 00 73 00 68 00 61 00 72 00 70 00 65 00 6E 00 69 00 6E 00 67 00 20 00 74 00 77 00 69 00 73 00 74 00 20 00 64 00 72 00 69 00 6C 00 6C 00 73 00 3F 00


 6" bench grinder?


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## morqthana (10 Jul 2022)

Bench grinder and by eye seems to work for knives...


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## D_W (10 Jul 2022)

Argus said:


> There's a temptation to ease this nonsense into a completely non-binary direction.



Zhe sharpening?


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## D_W (10 Jul 2022)

billgiles said:


> From the way people go on about sharpening it seems that sharpening is becoming a competitive sport. Welcome to the sharpening Olympiad of 2023 fellow woodworkers. It is a bit like fly casting competitions, all very well in itself but does not catch any fish.
> 
> Perhaps our sharpening enthusiasts are merely trying to justify their vast expense on exotic means of getting a fine edge - mainly to shave one’s forearms it seems.



If someone is doing a lot of hand work, it's not a competitive sport - it's an in-the-cycle-of work type thing along with preventing damage to an edge in the first place - like even several thousandths deep nicks are unlikely to be sharpened out by someone. 

I don't think there are many people doing that much work by hand, though, or the sharpening discussions would look more like holtzappfel and less like which honing guide to buy or a guy doing rough work talking about using stones in bad shape. 

The fact that few people are actually doing much hand work and consider sharpness an achievement vs. a routine thing gotten quickly aids supposition. like believing that you can just hand grind out 4 thousandths of blade edge quickly and nicking and things of the like don't make any difference (a brisk sharpening session removes about a thousandth of length from a tool). 

A cheap guide is useful for someone just starting ($10 chinese guide is fine) and a grinder of some sort, whatever it is, and then one or two inexpensive stones. 

The discussion of this in holtzapffel in 1875 is so good (and so is the planing discussion before it - I never saw this before last week, too bad) that it should probably be the method taught to beginners). Not surprisingly, it doesn't sound anything like the sellers method and it requires a reasonably flat stone. 

holtzapffel

if that link only works in the US, this is the 1875 version of Turning and Mechanical Manipulation: The principles of construction and I would imagine it's free on google books there, too. 

Splitting the grind and hone angle allows for fewer stones, they don't need to be fast, and a beginner can handle he angles because of the spread between the two. Nobody has ever sent me a tool to refit that was sharpened like sellers' method and actually came sharp and without clearance problems. When I send tools back, especially if I make a new iron for them, they talk about how long the edge lasts on the new iron - but the reason it does is the method in holtzapffel moves useless metal out of the way from becoming a clearance problem and the actual tip of the iron is steep enough to avoid small chipping. It has little to do with the metal or quality of the iron.


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## TRITON (10 Jul 2022)

Bingy man said:


> On a personal note I find sharpening both boring and relentless


And boring, lets not forget boring. And unfulfilling. And several other words beginning in un.

Far as im concerned, sharpening involves a power switch.


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## Droogs (10 Jul 2022)

Argus said:


> There's a temptation to ease this nonsense into a completely non-binary direction.


That's a bit woke isn't it


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> And boring, lets not forget boring. And unfulfilling. And several other words beginning in un.
> 
> Far as im concerned, sharpening involves a power switch.


Maybe you need to stop using the power switch and find your way back to the craft? 
It's no more boring than sawing, planing etc and a good result can be just as pleasing, not to mention useful!
Everybody moans about modern sharpening one way or another, you only have to look at this short thread. 
It's what keeps me blagging on about the very cheap, fast, efficient, easy, enjoyable, satisfying alternatives. Only trying to help!


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## Jacob (10 Jul 2022)

Droogs said:


> That's a bit woke isn't it


Google Kathy Burke on "woke"
She went viral this week.


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## morqthana (10 Jul 2022)

billgiles said:


> It is a bit like fly casting competitions, all very well in itself but does not catch any fish.


So, no less pointless than using the skill to actually catch fish. I've seen what people who catch them do - the daft beggars put the fish back in the water rather than in the pan.


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## Adam W. (11 Jul 2022)

I got a load of grief on a fly fishing forum, when I said I bash the pike I caught on the head and ate them with chips and peas.


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## niall Y (11 Jul 2022)

Well, push this thread along ,in a direction it might not wan't to go - Does anyone else remember the use of 'Neats Foot Oil' for oilstones? The only time I ever came across it was in my school woodwork room, eons ago.


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## Bingy man (11 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I got a load of grief on a fly fishing forum, when I said I bash the pike I caught on the head and ate them with chips and peas.


Don’t know why - you can buy a tool for killing trout when fly fishing,, now if you said that about a carp I,d be upset as when time permits I go carp fishing-and yes hours and hours of waiting for one to take my bait , a decent battle to get it on the bank-quick photo and it’s returned safely back to the water . My son gets really upset about this ( he has autism) he just can’t understand it’s all about the challenge.


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## Bingy man (11 Jul 2022)

niall Y said:


> Well, push this thread along ,in a direction it might not wan't to go - Does anyone else remember the use of 'Neats Foot Oil' for oilstones? The only time I ever came across it was in my school woodwork room, eons ago.


I thought it was now a fishing thread lol  could discuss how to correctly sharpen hooks


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## Droogs (11 Jul 2022)

I'm with @Adam W. If you go to the trouble of catching it then you should eat it. Same with when I bow Box hunting, If I get something it goes in a pie or sausages (fresh and cured), otherwise don't bother.


OOH just had an Idea, smoked fish sausages. Why have I never tried to make that? MMH yeah with a nice smokey herby sauce, yum


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## Daniel2 (11 Jul 2022)

I must say, this has to be the most courteous and amicable sharpening thread yet.


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## John Brown (11 Jul 2022)

I'm fairly certain that bow Box hunting is a typo, but I'm struggling to work out what means.


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Droogs said:


> I'm with @Adam W. If you go to the trouble of catching it then you should eat it. Same with when I bow Box hunting, If I get something it goes in a pie or sausages (fresh and cured), otherwise don't bother.
> 
> 
> OOH just had an Idea, smoked fish sausages. Why have I never tried to make that? MMH yeah with a nice smokey herby sauce, yum


Smoked haddock with parsley sauce?
Smoked mackerel pate with horseradish
Kippers etc
Who needs sausages?


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## rogxwhit (11 Jul 2022)

How do you sharpen sausages?


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## Spectric (11 Jul 2022)

Agree that sharp tools are very important to us woodworkers but it has to be less of an issue if you are power tool biased and not handtools because machines like P/T 's can have disposable blades wheras a decent handplane has to be kept razor sharp. I would also say that it is the outcome that maters and not how you get there so if a sharp tool can be achieved using more modern techniques than traditional does it really mater. 

One question, how many people use the so called scary sharp technique for their chiesels and what do you use to hold the chiesel as I will need to look at either sharpening one of mine or getting it sharpened soon?


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jul 2022)

niall Y said:


> Well, push this thread along ,in a direction it might not wan't to go - Does anyone else remember the use of 'Neats Foot Oil' for oilstones? The only time I ever came across it was in my school woodwork room, eons ago.


The old chippie I worked with decades ago told me was commonly used when he an apprentice.
I must try some - I keep it for leather hats and my wife's walking boots.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jul 2022)

Bingy man said:


> ... ( he has autism) he just can’t understand it’s all about the challenge.


I haven't and nor do I.


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## Serendipity Gunge (11 Jul 2022)

See Joke thread


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## Bingy man (11 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> Agree that sharp tools are very important to us woodworkers but it has to be less of an issue if you are power tool biased and not handtools because machines like P/T 's can have disposable blades wheras a decent handplane has to be kept razor sharp. I would also say that it is the outcome that maters and not how you get there so if a sharp tool can be achieved using more modern techniques than traditional does it really mater.
> 
> One question, how many people use the so called scary sharp technique for their chiesels and what do you use to hold the chiesel as I will need to look at either sharpening one of mine or getting it sharpened soon?


Veritas deluxe honing guide imho as it’s almost a complete set ,, covers small tools chisels and plane irons upto 2 1/2 inch if I recall, gives you more angle settings than you will probably need , skew jig available separately and a couple of others . In use it’s pretty foolproof which is why I like it. Oh and with the deluxe you get a camber roller , also they are interchangeable so you just have to set your angle and off you go .


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## Spectric (11 Jul 2022)

That sounds good, will just have to find the angle for my Ashley Isles chisel and then read up on the Scary sharp method and away I go. Not sure if I need a camber roller or skew jig.


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Bingy man said:


> Veritas deluxe honing guide imho as it’s almost a complete set ,, covers small tools chisels and plane irons upto 2 1/2 inch if I recall, gives you more angle settings than you will probably need , skew jig available separately and a couple of others . In use it’s pretty foolproof which is why I like it. Oh and with the deluxe you get a camber roller , also they are interchangeable so you just have to set your angle and off you go .


Sounds good, but bear in mind you can do all those things and more, easily, without any sort of jig at all.
There are virtually no old jigs about anywhere because nobody used them (except a few amateurs), until the amateur boom really kicked off in the late 60s.
That simple Stanley version (see earlier post) is amongst the first. It could actually be useful as a training aid for beginners wanting to get their eye in on what 25º and 30º look like! Best of a bad lot IMHO.
Scary sharp is OK if you are stuck but an oil stone is much better!


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## Spectric (11 Jul 2022)

Surely a jig is the failsafe method, not having to hold something at a precise angle. An oilstone is going to be a lot easier than using different grades of paper with the scary sharp so will look at whats around.


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> Surely a jig is the failsafe method,


That's how it looks but jigs are problematic - mainly the need for a flat stone, which leads on to all that stuff about flattening which modern sharpeners go on and on about. Not necessary freehand.


Spectric said:


> not having to hold something at a precise angle.


Not that difficult and doesn't need to be that precise. About 25º for a grind and a bit steeper for finish to the edge.


Spectric said:


> An oilstone is going to be a lot easier than using different grades of paper with the scary sharp so will look at whats around.


Norton IB8 is best starter.


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## Spectric (11 Jul 2022)

Hi Jacob

So with that stone I assume you just use the fine side for putting the edge back on and the courser side if it needs more removed in order to put an edge back on. I am also assuming you use honing oil on an oil stone and water on a wetstone, but saying that I do recall a toolroom that used a white cutting fluid on a pink wheel when sharpening end mills.


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> Hi Jacob
> 
> So with that stone I assume you just use the fine side for putting the edge back on and the courser side if it needs more removed in order to put an edge back on. I am also assuming you use honing oil on an oil stone and water on a wetstone, but saying that I do recall a toolroom that used a white cutting fluid on a pink wheel when sharpening end mills.


Thats about it! Coarse side at about 25º, fine side about 30º.
Avoid anything called "honing" oil, it's likely to be expensive and pointless. Just use 3in1 or similar, perhaps thinned with white spirit.
Whetstone just means a sharpening stone - there's an H in the word and it doesn't mean "wet'.
Avoid "water" stones they are just part of the modern sharpening fashion parade, but a water-bath large diameter grind-wheel is a good idea if you happen to come by one, but don't go out of your way.
I've no idea about pink stuff and tool rooms - I'm just on about hand processes in wood workshops.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jul 2022)

Here we go again - avoid water stones ...

You've never used water stones so you don't know.


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## danst96 (11 Jul 2022)

Popcorn is going down well at this stage, keep 'er coming.


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Here we go again - avoid water stones ...
> 
> You've never used water stones so you don't know.


I've been talked out of it by reading all the comments over the years. Mainly you have to flatten them all the time so you need another flattening stone! And another to flatten the flattening stone?
Just bin them it's easier!


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## rogxwhit (11 Jul 2022)

Some of us earn our crust (and it often is a crust!) by making things - ie by actually doing something. And we tend to just get on with it (we'll starve if we don't). Many others earn their crust (often I suspect quite a fat crust) by just selling stuff. So they're always on the lookout for things to sell. And there's always a new rank of innocents coming along to try out the latest novelties. How many colourfully anodised trinkets have you seen lately that'll vault your skills into the stratosphere as soon as you click on 'buy'?

This applies to more than sharpening ... ? Egypt is even planning to widen a narrow part of the Suez canal to accomodate the transit of an ever greater tide of guff ...

Are we makers or are we shoppers?

I know a chap who carved a marvellous figure from a piece of firewood, and all he used was a 1/4" chisel that I'd lent him ...

.


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## rogxwhit (11 Jul 2022)

Some people approach sharpening like fashion victims ...


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The old chippie I worked with decades ago told me was commonly used when he an apprentice.
> I must try some - I keep it for leather hats and my wife's walking boots.


 What do you put on _your_ boots?


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## raffo (11 Jul 2022)

niall Y said:


> Well, push this thread along ,in a direction it might not wan't to go - Does anyone else remember the use of 'Neats Foot Oil' for oilstones? The only time I ever came across it was in my school woodwork room, eons ago.


I've used it. It's kind of thick and has a peculiar smell. Since it doesn't flow all over the place, it makes a little less of a mess compared to mineral oil or other thin fluids. 

Some people use kerosene, the version we get in the US has a very strong odor, it stinks up the whole house. I don't use it on my stones.


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## D_W (11 Jul 2022)

niall Y said:


> Well, push this thread along ,in a direction it might not wan't to go - Does anyone else remember the use of 'Neats Foot Oil' for oilstones? The only time I ever came across it was in my school woodwork room, eons ago.



I've seen references for it, and long before that, sperm oil from whales - nondrying before petroleum based light oils were all over the place. 

both would've been fine choices for oilstones as one of the biggest problems with the older ones is people going really cheap and trying to get by with oils that aren't refined and that will oxidize and clog a stone. 

I've used neatsfoot oil a whole bunch on baseball gloves and boots and shoes, but not for sharpening due to the thickness. That thickness would be excellent for india and silicon carbide stones, but only a thin film of it (apply oil, then intentionally wipe almost all of it off) on fine stones. 

The advent of cheap hydrotreated (very clean) mineral oils that are available in a wide range and that have no odor or pork rind type smell sort of pushes neatsfoot to the side. 

re: the value of highly processed mineral oils - my dad had an old oilstone that was clogged with oxidized oil. He assumed it was of no use because it was too slow. Under it was a washita. I asked after we loosened the crud if he had any mineral oil, and all he had was some singer oil cans from WWII and before. Some unopened. We chose one and the oil in it had only lightly yellowed - worked just fine, no smell.


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## Phil Pascoe (11 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> I've been talked out of it by reading all the comments over the years. Mainly you have to flatten them all the time so you need another flattening stone! And another to flatten the flattening stone?
> Just bin them it's easier!


Use the whole stone as you would an oilstone. I do confess to flattening them about once a decade, though. (Usually on a coping stone on the garden wall . )


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## D_W (11 Jul 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Some of us earn our crust (and it often is a crust!) by making things - ie by actually doing something. And we tend to just get on with it (we'll starve if we don't). Many others earn their crust (often I suspect quite a fat crust) by just selling stuff. So they're always on the lookout for things to sell. And there's always a new rank of innocents coming along to try out the latest novelties. How many colourfully anodised trinkets have you seen lately that'll vault your skills into the stratosphere as soon as you click on 'buy'?
> 
> This applies to more than sharpening ... ? Egypt is even planning to widen a narrow part of the Suez canal to accomodate the transit of an ever greater tide of guff ...
> 
> ...



I've met professional makers who have spent less on hand tools, other than carving tools, in total (including stones) than what I've spent on a single plane. 

_(that was a poorly ordered statement!)_

But, the finest maker I've ever seen is an absolute tool hound and was a relentless maker, so the idea that this is a black and white thing is a little off. Really fine makers seem to be a little bit more interested in needling away at ideal tools. For a joiner or someone just making kitchen cabinets or tables or whatever, I can't imagine much spending on hand tools would be rewarded, though. 

We have our share of people in the states who like to boast about how much they do with how little tools or with poor quality tools. boasting about the latter is a little odd when good _basic_ vintage tools really aren't very expensive.


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## D_W (11 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> That sounds good, will just have to find the angle for my Ashley Isles chisel and then read up on the Scary sharp method and away I go. Not sure if I need a camber roller or skew jig.



If you're working hardwoods, 25 degree grind, 32 degree very small secondary bevel. if you're working softwoods, you can back off a couple of degrees on the final angle. 

Separate the bevel work and work at the edge and you'll have more success and faster refreshing.


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Use the whole stone as you would an oilstone. I do confess to flattening them about once a decade, though. (Usually on a coping stone on the garden wall . )


Is the coping stone getting flatter with use? Maybe you should try it for sharpening direct and miss out the water stone altogether?


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## thetyreman (11 Jul 2022)

I find 33.62 degrees is just about right


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## Argus (11 Jul 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I find 33.62 degrees is just about right



Very interesting...... I came to the same conclusion myself after a 'blind' test where I used welding goggles during sharpening on an absolutely flat stone - no errors - to ensure that there were no unwanted external influences.


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## rogxwhit (11 Jul 2022)

How did you know that you were on the flat stone ...?


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## D_W (11 Jul 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I find 33.62 degrees is just about right



Have a go if you wish to, I tested a bunch of chisels for another reason years ago. 32 is about where good chisels start to stay undamaged a lot longer (holtzapffel suggests 25 + 10 degrees). 



These picture are about 1 cubic inch of wood only. They go sideways after this quickly - as in, the ones showing more damage get drastically more damaged and the gap widens. 

This is the damage to an MK2 and V11 chisel at 25 degrees without any secondary bevel. 


a couple of degrees more than 32 and damage pretty much stops, but it also feels a little blunt to start straight away. 

In case anyone is thinking about buying any $100 each chisels, the Iles chisel fared better than the V11 chisel by a good bit. Only a japanese chisel fared better than AI's wares, but that's to be expected - white steel makes a better chisel than O1, and AI does about as well as you can do with O1. 

there probably aren't that many people on here doing any volume of hand work, though, either. Sharpening off a thousandth of a chisel half as often as doing four thousandths if going too low on the angle doesn't get much talk because nobody's really making anything.


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## Garden Shed Projects (11 Jul 2022)

I do feel that YouTube plays a huge roll in the desire to own all the kit. You watch a number of the guys and all the power tools are Festool, a Rockler jig for every occasion, fancy Japanese planes and chisels and quite often a sharpening machine of some description sat on the bench. 

It makes it hard to believe that you can make great stuff with basic chisels, a Stanley/record no 4 and a £30 Indian oilstone for sharpening.


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## D_W (11 Jul 2022)

Garden Shed Projects said:


> I do feel that YouTube plays a huge roll in the desire to own all the kit. You watch a number of the guys and all the power tools are Festool, a Rockler jig for every occasion, fancy Japanese planes and chisels and quite often a sharpening machine of some description sat on the bench.
> 
> It makes it hard to believe that you can make great stuff with basic chisels, a Stanley/record no 4 and a £30 Indian oilstone for sharpening.



Everything leads toward it -even if someone is just an honest enthusiast on a forum doing great work, people will get what they get. 

George Wilson on the US forum, probably about as fine of a maker as you'll find alive in the last couple of centuries, would call me and say "OH GOD....NOT ANOTHER SHARPENING THREAD!"

And the users on the forum instead of asking him questions about how he did his work, would ask about what sharpening stones he was using. 

It turned out to be spyderco because at the time he looked through various sharpening stones to stock the craftsman's supply shop for CW (williamsburg), he liked those the best. 

I would bet you at least several dozen people bought spyderco stones after George didn't want to talk about them at all. 

There are no makers of his level doing regular youtube videos - they don't really get any views. There are a couple of accomplished furniture makers in the US giving classes instead, but they are rigid and and wouldn't create much YT fanfare. 

YT itself is a data collecting marvel that can find the class of people who buy and present videos that get higher ad rates. In terms of useful information on woodworking, it's pretty much dead. 

A big group of people talking about how to make things is relatively valueless (to third parties) compared to a group of people who think someone like stumpy nubs is a friendly guy and they'll ask later if he has ever made anything notable or would even know how to.


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Water stone users use free honing fluid (water).
I think this exercised a few minds on how to monetise it - how about Vichy or Perrier honing water perhaps? 
Difficult, but they cracked it eventually, by marketing a honing water _additive_!
Brilliant!
It deters rust (supposedly). Who'da thought water caused rust?
Last time I checked it worked out at £74 a litre! Coincidentally the same price as Macallan 12 Year Old Sherry Cask 70cl 
There are even cheaper whiskies and expect they'd also do perfectly well as a honing fluid.


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## Ttrees (11 Jul 2022)

David, Your suggestion of _*using* your fingers_ for "directed pressure" (a misleading term for it IMO)
has been the single biggest help to me for learning how to get my cambers bang on.
I've not heard of anyone suggesting this before, but it's saved me time and steel.

Cheers

Tom


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> David, Your suggestion of _*using* your fingers_ for "directed pressure" (a misleading term for it IMO)
> has been the single biggest help to me for learning how to get my cambers bang on.
> I've not heard of anyone suggesting this before, but it's saved me time and steel.
> 
> ...


Fingers? I hold them in my teeth, doesn't everybody?


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## thetyreman (11 Jul 2022)




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## Ttrees (11 Jul 2022)

Aye, David's suggestion of positioning of fingers _exactly _where material needs removing,
i.e to get a perfectly consistent camber as small as you like.
Good smoothing with a double iron plane needs either a perfect camber, or perfect relief on the corners.
Tipping or leaning with fingers just close, (to me) is inconsistent by comparison.
Might get ones hands dirty being pretty much at the edge, but is so quick that it makes 
no difference to me than having to correct the camber instead.
Kinda like folks sharpening scrapers and spreading the fingers, it matters more than one might think!

I never heard anyone else suggest this can be a utilized technique regarding honing plane irons
before.

Tom


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## D_W (11 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> David, Your suggestion of _*using* your fingers_ for "directed pressure" (a misleading term for it IMO)
> has been the single biggest help to me for learning how to get my cambers bang on.
> I've not heard of anyone suggesting this before, but it's saved me time and steel.
> 
> ...



it's just noticing something from experience - that almost everything we sharpen is a little bit flexible and finger pressure will put the scratches where the fingers are - it's all part of doing work where it's needed, but not pointless work where it's not. 

I made it up, too - it's not something I've seen anywhere, but the whole idea of accurate sharpening is getting a tool set up so that you can finish the edge without too much strain. 

Interestingly, when I read the holtzapffel text last week, the part on the double iron was dead accurate (never saw it before), the discussion of miter planes with a single iron (set up to 60 degrees to strike long edges without tearout, shooting of end grain pretty much omitted because it's only done on small pieces), and the discussion of sharpening was stellar - even if someone had no idea about whether or not the sharpening discussion was good, it's what I've settled on over time trying to improve results and cut time at the same time, and the angles they recommend prevent needless damage that leads to a whole lot more work. 

Grinder, oilstone. There is discussion of various other things in the text under lapidiary or setting of razors - the thing is practically definitively except for folks wanting to use something older stones won't cut - one can always throw cheap diamond powder on a finish stone and even that isn't a problem. 

Specifically noted was also working the back of a tool as flat on a stone as possible with no lift - I think anyone doing a lot of work would've noticed soon that "directed" pressure with fingers resulted in getting the polish done to the edge quickly and not anywhere else. The text also noted that stones should be flat for fine work, or something along those lines. Carefully kept flat or something of that sort. It's not absolutely necessary for stones to be dead flat, but to keep them reasonably flat is important at some point because more than just a plane iron or a couple of chisels will show up. 

If this stuff isn't mastered for hand tool work, it's really limiting. Not for someone who planes a little bit, shoves all of their stuff through a planer and then sands afterwards, but someone who wants to actually work by hand and make it pleasant and satisfying. Same as sharpening a rip saw relatively often with light passes in a couple of minutes. It makes the work accessible without being a physical drag. 

if someone is barely using hand tools, then I guess it doesn't matter that much to solve these kinds of things. I don't have an accurate table saw and if someone wanted to tell me how to cut 6000 feet of linear sticking accurately on a table saw, I'd glaze over.


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## Ttrees (11 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> it's just noticing something from experience - that almost everything we sharpen is a little bit flexible and finger pressure will put the scratches where the fingers are - it's all part of doing work where it's needed, but not pointless work where it's not.
> 
> 
> Specifically noted was also working the back of a tool as flat on a stone as possible with no lift - I think anyone doing a lot of work would've noticed soon that "directed" pressure with fingers resulted in getting the polish done to the edge quickly and not anywhere else. The text also noted that stones should be flat for fine work, or something along those lines. Carefully kept flat or something of that sort. It's not absolutely necessary for stones to be dead flat, but to keep them reasonably flat is important at some point because more than just a plane iron or a couple of chisels will show up.


Well I admit to spending all too long lapping the backs of plane irons, looking at scratches
and doing a bit of leaning, buffing the edge until dry to polish better,
but never thought of it being the same with a ...what I think is an extremely rigid thing
and still questioning if something else is possibly at work here,
whatever, either way the method is sureworthy and I use it every time I sharpen.

Likewise even whilst using a severely dished oil stone and spot honing on the corners in effort to flatten eventually, I didn't cop it,
nor any other developing efforts I've made trying various folks methods.

I reckon I might have stayed clueless forever about it 
So many thanks for the info.

Tom


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2022)

I'm just popping out for some popcorn. I may be some time.


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## Argus (11 Jul 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> How did you know that you were on the flat stone ...?



You'll have to take my word for it...... I put it down to my enhanced powers of divination. A bit like finding the switch on the bog-wall at two in the morning and turning the light on without a click.


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## D_W (11 Jul 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Well I admit to spending all too long lapping the backs of plane irons, looking at scratches
> and doing a bit of leaning, buffing the edge until dry to polish better,
> but never thought of it being the same with a ...what I think is an extremely rigid thing
> and still questioning if something else is possibly at work here,
> ...



sure thing. I've heard from at least 5 people that it was helpful - that's my goal. 

Swayed stones are possible to use just by running over the edge, of course, without any immediate threat to back geometry, but having swayed edges does increase the chance of catching the actual cutting edge on the corner of the stone, which is a poo result - it just puts a big dent in the edge that leaves lines on work. 

On new tools, though, if you get an even edge without much of the back polished, the rest will come into polish with subsequent sharpening and if it doesn't, it can be addressed later. With appropriate use, a quarter of an inch of edge is at least 100 sharpening cycles, potentially double that. Each of those may have 10 solid sections of hefty back rubbing as part of the sharpening cycle - a lot of targeted work on the back.


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## Adam W. (11 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> I'm just popping out for some popcorn. I may be some time.


My eyes rolled so far back in my head, I could see last weeks washing.


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## Spectric (11 Jul 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Some people approach sharpening like fashion victims ...


Some like myself try to avoid because I don't want to wreck my chisels and there are too many ideas around so I am going to buy some shiete chisels like I used to have and practice on them. Need to get one of them Norton oil stones as recomended by @Jacob and will start with a guide until such time as I feel happy doing sharpening free hand. I am sure people have been sharpening chisels long before any of these fancy expensive sharpening systems came to market, probably aimed at people like myself who are open to an easy option.


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## Bingy man (11 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> That sounds good, will just have to find the angle for my Ashley Isles chisel and then read up on the Scary sharp method and away I go. Not sure if I need a camber roller or skew jig.


Camber roller just allows you to soften the corners of your plane irons so if for eg your flattering a wide board it reduces the chances of you leaving tram tracks in your work ,, skew jigs for angled blades but it’s an optional extra that I don’t need. Eotd it’s whatever your comfortable using and what gets you consistent results in as short at time as possible- I’ve tried sharpening by eye with an oilstone but it just didn’t work for me.


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## morqthana (12 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> What do you put on _your_ boots?


Grangers G-Wax, of course.


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## morqthana (12 Jul 2022)

raffo said:


> I've used it. It's kind of thick and has a peculiar smell.


It's also, should anybody care, non-vegetarian/vegan.









Neatsfoot oil - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## morqthana (12 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> There are even cheaper whiskies and expect they'd also do perfectly well as a honing fluid.


What about my cask strength Laphroaig? Will that make me a better cook if I use it on my knife-sharpening stone?

Drinking it doesn't - just wondered if I've been using it wrong.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2022)

Bingy man said:


> Camber roller just allows you to soften the corners of your plane irons so if for eg your flattering a wide board it reduces the chances of you leaving tram tracks in your work ,, skew jigs for angled blades but it’s an optional extra that I don’t need. Eotd it’s whatever your comfortable using and what gets you consistent results in as short at time as possible-


It's more a case of jigs _*don't*_ allow you to camber an iron, unless you buy another expensive jig with a cambered roller etc. And so it goes on!


Bingy man said:


> I’ve tried sharpening by eye with an oilstone but it just didn’t work for me.


Don't give up too soon! It was never a problem in the past. It was the first thing people learnt in school woodwork classes. Everybody was a beginner at first.
It's a very simple craft process and much less difficult than all the other things woodworkers have to do.
If you can get someone to show you it shouldn't take more than half an hour to get it.

re wrecking new chisels - there's a lot of really bad modern sharpening advice about how to "prep" them, or other jargon like "commission" or "initialise". It's total b locks. A chisel is never so easy to sharpen as when it's brand new - just a quick hone at 30º on a fine stone, turn it over flat and remove the burr, and you are off. 
Do not go down the route of "flattening" the faces - this is never necessary. The removal of the burr is enough flattening of the face, no more is needed. 
There have been horror stories of perfect complete new sets being wrecked after hours of work by novice sharpeners following bad advice from the usual crowd!


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## Scruples (12 Jul 2022)

morqthana said:


> So, no less pointless than using the skill to actually catch fish. I've seen what people who catch them do - the daft beggars put the fish back in the water rather than in the pan.


There's fishing and there's angling. The difference being that fisherman fish, to get fish to eat whilst anglers use their skills and knowledge to outwit a fish; the sport is in the catching, and the fish is released to fight another day. Unless, you are an angler, you probably wouldn't understand.


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## Scruples (12 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I got a load of grief on a fly fishing forum, when I said I bash the pike I caught on the head and ate them with chips and peas.


A wind up, but to an angler you may well as well have joked about domestic violence.


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## Adam W. (12 Jul 2022)

They are very tasty, which is why the Polish fishers are so keen to catch them.


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## Scruples (12 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> They are very tasty, which is why the Polish fishers are so keen to catch them.


They aren't really but when it's free food the Polish are used to taking them whether they should or not.


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## Droogs (12 Jul 2022)

Scruples said:


> There's fishing and there's angling. The difference being that fisherman fish, to get fish to eat whilst *anglers use their skills and knowledge to outwit a fish*; the sport is in the catching, and the fish is released to fight another day. Unless, you are an angler, you probably wouldn't understand.


Wouldn't have thought it much of a challenge really


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## Spectric (12 Jul 2022)

I like that @Jacob nice straight advice and " just a quick hone at 30º on a fine stone, turn it over flat and remove the burr, and you are off." sounds great to me without all the other stuff that makes it sound like a black art.


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## D_W (12 Jul 2022)

Bingy man said:


> Camber roller just allows you to soften the corners of your plane irons so if for eg your flattering a wide board it reduces the chances of you leaving tram tracks in your work ,, skew jigs for angled blades but it’s an optional extra that I don’t need. Eotd it’s whatever your comfortable using and what gets you consistent results in as short at time as possible- I’ve tried sharpening by eye with an oilstone but it just didn’t work for me.



If you want to try freehanding, grind at a lower angle, make yourself a block a little above 30 degrees to see what it feels like and work the tip of the iron with a single stone at the steeper angle, do a couple of alternating front and back (not going steeper) and then strop the edge. 

The trouble with jacob and paul's fallacy is the idea that the average person gets a good edge with it - or even mediocre. Most don't. Separating the grinding and edge work drastically improves both your control of the shape of the edge and the finish of the edge. In less time.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2022)

morqthana said:


> What about my cask strength Laphroaig? Will that make me a better cook if I use it on my knife-sharpening stone?
> 
> Drinking it doesn't - just wondered if I've been using it wrong.


Well it'll taste a lot better than honing fluid and it's just about the same price here, specially reduced! Laphroaig 10 Year Old Cask Strength - Batch 014


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## D_W (12 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> I like that @Jacob nice straight advice and " just a quick hone at 30º on a fine stone, turn it over flat and remove the burr, and you are off." sounds great to me without all the other stuff that makes it sound like a black art.



it's a simple concept and doable. I've never seen anyone doing it, rounded or flat, send me a tool that's sharp without clearance problems. I've only had one with clearance problems that was sharpened to the edge. Every single part of the process goes subpar (condition of the edge, geometry of the edge, time between sharpenings). 

If you have a guide, grind at 25, hone at 32 (it could be 30 or 34, whatever it is), then gradually move to doing that by hand. You grind most of the steel away and control the camber or lack of at the edge with a medium stone and then finish with a fine stone at about the same angle. when the second bevel gets too large to hone easily, you regrind. 

if two stones is hard at first, grind nearly to the edge and find something like a washita arkansas stone, raise a burr, work the back, lighten strokes for the last couple of rubs to reduce the strength of the burr and then strop with moderate pressure to remove the burr. 

you'll execute that fine every time as long as you grind enough to make it reasonably easy to create a burr without needing a super fast or coarse stone.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> I like that @Jacob nice straight advice and " just a quick hone at 30º on a fine stone, turn it over flat and remove the burr, and you are off." sounds great to me without all the other stuff that makes it sound like a black art.


All the new chisels I've ever bought have been slightly hollow on the face. Not sure if this is just a by product of manufacture or deliberate. But either way it makes them really easy to sharpen.
Grinding marks etc on cheaper chisels don't matter either (within reason) - they lose their "sharpness" and become low friction very quickly. They may still show years later but not a prob as the high points get polished by use.


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## Scruples (12 Jul 2022)

Droogs said:


> Wouldn't have thought it much of a challenge really


That's because you're not an angler. To catch a fish in it's own environment, you have to understand its environment and the weather, including temperature and the wind direction, it feeding habits at the time you're angling and if the fish is feeding (catchable) or spawning (less catchable) or just not in the mood.

It's no more of a challenge than any sport, but a challenge it definitely is. With knowledge and experience it is likely you'll have a good session. Without the knowledge and experience, it's likely you'll have a quiet day.

Where there is less of a challenge is sea boat fishing where the experience and knowledge belongs to the skipper. The angler is just working from his instructions.


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2022)

Scruples said:


> ....
> 
> Where there is less of a challenge is sea boat fishing where the experience and knowledge belongs to the skipper. The angler is just working from his instructions.


Have caught loads of mackerel from the back of sailing boats.
Drop one hook in, catch one. Drop 5, catch 5!
It is a challenge; eating them, all.
Very tasty and speeds up the frying if you just slice off fillets.
You can get through a lot if you have a bottle of whisky to wash them down with. Cheaper than honing fluid!
We sat in Armadale Harbour some years ago frying our way though the catch and dropping scraps over side. We realised we'd slowly created a large oil slick and attracted lots of birds and seals.


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## Scruples (12 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Have caught loads of mackerel from the back of sailing boats.
> Drop one hook in, catch one. Drop 5, catch 5!
> It is a challenge; eating them, all.
> Very tasty and speeds up the frying if you just slice off fillets.
> ...


Like I said. The only skill in sea fishing from a boat is where to put the boat. Mackerel are a shoal fish and, like you say, catching them requires no skill so it's called fishing rather than the more skilful angling.


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## mikej460 (12 Jul 2022)

Don't you just love tangents


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2022)

Scruples said:


> Like I said. The only skill in sea fishing from a boat is where to put the boat. Mackerel are a shoal fish and, like you say, catching them requires no skill so it's called fishing rather than the more skilful angling.


I guess OCDC modern sharpening is more like angling then, whereas we humble woodworkers can only manage fishing (and more fish to eat!!)......er, praps not, stretching it too far!


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## Bingy man (12 Jul 2022)

Scruples said:


> That's because you're not an angler. To catch a fish in it's own environment, you have to understand its environment and the weather, including temperature and the wind direction, it feeding habits at the time you're angling and if the fish is feeding (catchable) or spawning (less catchable) or just not in the mood.
> 
> It's no more of a challenge than any sport, but a challenge it definitely is. With knowledge and experience it is likely you'll have a good session. Without the knowledge and experience, it's likely you'll have a quiet day.
> 
> Where there is less of a challenge is sea boat fishing where the experience and knowledge belongs to the skipper. The angler is just working from his instructions.


Well didn’t want to start a sharpening thread as my original post was just to enquire why it seems such a taboo subject-query answered lol - however certainly didn’t expect to be discussing fishing either but yes like a lot of hobbies etc it is indeed a challenge as everything you say is correct . The reward for all the efforts carp fishing is when the alarm screams and eventually if you do everything correctly is a decent 20lb +carp in your net , not to fire up the b b q and eat it -that’s what chip shops are for . Fishing is just another of my passions and just like woodwork the more effort you put in the greater the reward even if the reward comes a lot later .wonder how many members have made a really beautiful piece of furniture and a year later it’s still sitting in the workshop unsold- once it does sell and someone else is admiring it the maker is now rewarded ( job satisfaction and a few quid in his or her pocket) such is life as we are all different but the same too.


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## Adam W. (12 Jul 2022)

mikej460 said:


> Don't you just love tangents


I prefer satsumas.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Jul 2022)

I hate oysters.


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## mikej460 (12 Jul 2022)

Oh lord there's another one forming....


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## mark w (13 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> It's more a case of jigs _*don't*_ allow you to camber an iron, unless you buy another expensive jig with a cambered roller etc. And so it goes on!




That's not correct Jacob, you can successfully camber a blade with a honing guide without buying any additional rollers, I do it and David Charlesworth demonstrates this in his articles and videos.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2022)

What are the cambered rollers for then?


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## MikeK (13 Jul 2022)

mark w said:


> That's not correct Jacob, you can successfully camber a blade with a honing guide without buying any additional rollers, I do it and David Charlesworth demonstrates this in his articles and videos.



Be careful, lest you let facts get in the way of a humorous story.  

I had the pleasure of spending four weeks with the late David Charlesworth and learned how to quickly, accurately, and consistently sharpen my tools. This included easily establishing a camber on my plane irons with the LN honing jig. In those four weeks, I never saw David free hand sharpen a chisel or plane iron. He always used the Tormek to establish the 25-degree primary bevel and then switched to the LN honing jig and water stones for the other bevels. This is how I learned, and I am comfortable with it.


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## MikeK (13 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> What are the cambered rollers for then?



The cambered rollers are another method to accomplish the same thing. There are many paths to the destination.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2022)

I always think it's a pity that Charlesworth never got to grips with freehand sharpening. 
With his meticulous attention to detail he had just the right mindset for it.


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## MikeK (13 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> I always think it's a pity that Charlesworth never got to grips with freehand sharpening.
> With his meticulous attention to detail he had just the right mindset for it.



I asked David why he used the honing jigs instead of freehand sharpening. He told me it was for the same reason he had a P/T, table saw, router table, and bandsaw in his shop. Some aspects of woodworking have progressed with technology and just because a process worked great for centuries is no reason to hang onto them when there is a better way.

If you are comfortable with freehand, then please continue, but please don't try to force it down the throats of others.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Jul 2022)

Likewise oilstones.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2022)

MikeK said:


> ........
> 
> If you are comfortable with freehand, then please continue, but please don't try to force it down the throats of others.


It works both ways!
Modern sharpening is very heavily over promoted.


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## johna.clements (13 Jul 2022)

I sharpen with an old facing brick and lidl own brand washing up liquid. Gets a nice shine.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2022)

johna.clements said:


> I sharpen with an old facing brick and lidl own brand washing up liquid. Gets a nice shine.


Possible no doubt, it takes all sorts,  but I'm sure you'd find it easier with an 8x2 oil stone and a tin of 3in1!


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## MikeK (13 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> It works both ways!
> Modern sharpening is very heavily promoted.



When asked about the best way to sharpen a chisel or plane iron, I start with "This is how I do it...", and then suggest several methods. You should try this opening line next time.

I don't know anyone who has the time to devote to an apprentice program to learn and refine freehand sharpening. I certainly don't, nor do I want to just grab a chisel and figure it out. A one-hour block of instruction is all I needed to consistently sharpen my tools to meet my requirements. Modern sharpening methods and systems work for beginners, like me, and are still evolving.

I have a friend in Virginia who only shaves with a straight razor. He will belittle anyone who doesn't with "you don't know what you're missing" as he walks around some days with a plaster on his chin, cheek, or throat. I am confident that I have lost far less blood that he has in our nearly identical years of grooming, and maybe have spent less on razors, yet he is comfortable holding on to the old ways.


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## johna.clements (13 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Possible no doubt, it takes all sorts,  but I'm sure you'd find it easier with an 8x2 oil stone and a tin of 3in1!


I have used cooking oil but then I smelt like I worked in the chippy.


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2022)

MikeK said:


> I asked David why he used the honing jigs instead of freehand sharpening. He told me it was for the same reason he had a P/T, table saw, router table, and bandsaw in his shop. Some aspects of woodworking have progressed with technology and just because a process worked great for centuries is no reason to hang onto them when there is a better way.


That is a good and fair point, brings us back down to earth. Why try and sharpen a chisel like someone would a century ago when you can get more consistent results with far less skill using a jig or guide, it comes down to making life easier so we can use the tools to produce something rather than spend time sharpening our tools. 

Why has someone not come up with chisels that have disposable ends, maybe you can give them a hone to keep the edge but at some point just replace it and off you go with a new chisel.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> That is a good and fair point, brings us back down to earth. Why try and sharpen a chisel like someone would a century ago


You could ask - why use a chisel/plane/knife/saw which was designed a century ago? Answer - because they worked perfectly well a century ago and still do. Ditto the sharpening. Or 10 centuries ago for that matter.


Spectric said:


> when you can get more consistent results with far less skill using a jig or guide, it comes down to making life easier so we can use the tools to produce something rather than spend time sharpening our tools.


There wouldn't be an issue except for the often repeated comments about modern sharpening being boring, slow, expensive and needing a lot of kit - the opposite of freehand.


Spectric said:


> Why has someone not come up with chisels that have disposable ends, maybe you can give them a hone to keep the edge but at some point just replace it and off you go with a new chisel.


Well they did try it with plane blades but it turned out better to sharpen them instead. Mainly the size of blade - you'd need great boxes of them I imagine, or send them off to be sharpened, not like disposable razor blades at all!
There were sharpenable safety razors at one point. Much like the ordinary safety razor except you could thread in a strop like a belt and pull it to and fro, but in the end cheaper to use disposable.


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## sploo (13 Jul 2022)

MikeK said:


> I asked David why he used the honing jigs instead of freehand sharpening. He told me it was for the same reason he had a P/T, table saw, router table, and bandsaw in his shop. Some aspects of woodworking have progressed with technology and just because a process worked great for centuries is no reason to hang onto them when there is a better way.


I think this is an interesting argument/position.

Undoubtedly it's quicker to throw large quantities of material through a P/T, table saw etc than it is to plane it (or saw it) by hand. Arguably it also requires less skill; in the sense that it's hard work to get a board really nice and flat and even thickness with a hand plane. I enjoy using a hand plane, but the machines are definitely coming out when I've got lots of boards to process.

For sharpening cutting tools such as (flat/square ended) chisels and hand plane blades though I do wonder about the time aspect; it's probably just as fast to freehand sharpen vs the time to put a blade in a jig. Pushing a blade or chisel into a grinder wheel or linisher (e.g. ProEdge) would, granted, be really fast.

No right or wrong way... I just thought it was interesting as I've never really considered the time aspect of sharpening freehand being an issue (vs "newer" methods).


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## D_W (13 Jul 2022)

MikeK said:


> Be careful, lest you let facts get in the way of a humorous story.
> 
> I had the pleasure of spending four weeks with the late David Charlesworth and learned how to quickly, accurately, and consistently sharpen my tools. This included easily establishing a camber on my plane irons with the LN honing jig. In those four weeks, I never saw David free hand sharpen a chisel or plane iron. He always used the Tormek to establish the 25-degree primary bevel and then switched to the LN honing jig and water stones for the other bevels. This is how I learned, and I am comfortable with it.



I learned - first attempt, from david's video. I think I hassled him about why he didn't have a what's next as I grew tired of how slow the sharpening was and he flatly said "I teach methods that beginners will have success for". 

I think there's an important point in this - I can do as well freehand now, but I've sharpened thousands of times. If I couldn't get the same results freehand, I would still use a jig. 

I've never seen anyone sharpen the full bevel of a tool and get close to david's results, and if anyone wanted to prove me wrong in a cycle of actual work, they'd find out otherwise if I microscoped their blades. Less accurate sharpening means more often sharpening and more work using tools. 

Incidentally, what David taught is almost the same thing as Holzappfel recommends, they just don't mention a guide. 

I puzzled for a couple of years about the level of sharpness everyone told me I was missing by not spending time with a pro, but followed David's video exactly and it turned out the method does exactly what he said - it finishes the edge. The other benefit of it is following the final angles he uses, defects in edges occur far less. Having early success was invaluable. I only switched to freehand to cut time, but who in their right mind would recommend to someone who doesn't sharpen all the time to switch to a worse method for them.


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## D_W (13 Jul 2022)

Spectric said:


> Why has someone not come up with chisels that have disposable ends, maybe you can give them a hone to keep the edge but at some point just replace it and off you go with a new chisel.



You could probably find these with little effort-but when I first started woodworking in about 2005 or 2006, there were chisels with replaceable HSS bits on the end. I don't know anyone who got them, but there was discussion around them.


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## MikeK (13 Jul 2022)

sploo said:


> *No right or wrong way*... I just thought it was interesting as I've never really considered the time aspect of sharpening freehand being an issue (vs "newer" methods).



This is the point I was trying to make, but some just can't get past their own bias. I really don't care if the best way for one is to take the chisel to a mostly flat rock by the creek, wedge it between their toes, and dance a jig. If it accomplishes the task, then that is the right way for that person.


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## Spectric (13 Jul 2022)

MikeK said:


> the best way for one is to take the chisel to a mostly flat rock by the creek, wedge it between their toes, and dance a jig.


Has anyone tried it? maybe we are missing a trick!


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## TRITON (13 Jul 2022)

Tomorrows sharpening topic - The Skew.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> Tomorrows sharpening topic - The Skew.


Ooh can't wait! Whose go is it?


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## TRITON (13 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Ooh can't wait! Whose go is it?


Hopefully not mine, I bought a Record no2506 side rebate plane the other day(A score at £35) so im in need of honing the edges of the skew irons. I've no jig and they're too small to try it freehand.


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2022)

TRITON said:


> Hopefully not mine, I bought a Record no2506 side rebate plane the other day(A score at £35) so im in need of honing the edges of the skew irons. I've no jig and they're too small to try it freehand.


Take something like a 6 to 10" long piece of 2x1" for a handle, cut a saw kerf in the end and insert blade. Apply to oil stone.
Doesn't have to be a tight fit if you can't match the thickness - holding it down firmly on the stone will keep it in place. This is an essential trick for all shapes and sizes of small blade - most often a spokeshave or block plane.
You can of course put a screw or two through, for a tight fit
Same trick is handy for a big plane blade but no kerf just bolt it on through hole in a 2x1" length. This makes it possible to grind a full bevel on a coarse stone quite quickly, because you can put a lot of effort into it, more so if it's long enough for both hands.
Might have to bevel the end, to clear the stone.


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## Droogs (13 Jul 2022)

It's simple if you have old 01 metal then use old methods or new, which ever suites but if you have modern PMV11 or Crypto-warp 120 moon steel then use modern methods designed for them as the old stones find them too hard to work quickly.


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## Marcusthehat (13 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> What are the cambered rollers for then?


Yer hair!


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## mikej460 (13 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Take something like a 6 to 10" long piece of 2x1" for a handle, cut a saw kerf in the end and insert blade. Apply to oil stone.
> Doesn't have to be a tight fit if you can't match the thickness - holding it down firmly on the stone will keep it in place. This is an essential trick for all shapes and sizes of small blade - most often a spokeshave or block plane.
> You can of course put a screw or two through, for a tight fit
> Same trick is handy for a big plane blade but no kerf just bolt it on through hole in a 2x1" length. This makes it possible to grind a full bevel on a coarse stone quite quickly, because you can put a lot of effort into it, more so if it's long enough for both hands.
> Might have to bevel the end, to clear the stone.


yes and LN give you a similar gadget with their router planes


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## Jacob (13 Jul 2022)

Droogs said:


> It's simple if you have old 01 metal then use old methods or new, which ever suites but if you have modern PMV11 or Crypto-warp 120 moon steel then use modern methods designed for them as the old stones find them too hard to work quickly.


I've got Hock blade in a 4 which says A2 Cryo whatever that means. It does take noticeably longer but not a game changer.
I see sharpening as a little break from the job and a few minutes either way is fine. 
Supposed to keep it's edge longer anyway but I can't say I've noticed particularly


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## thetyreman (14 Jul 2022)

Droogs said:


> It's simple if you have old 01 metal then use old methods or new, which ever suites but if you have modern PMV11 or Crypto-warp 120 moon steel then use modern methods designed for them as the old stones find them too hard to work quickly.



I prefer O1 steel generally, it's always easy to sharpen, I don't mind sharpening more often.


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## D_W (14 Jul 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I prefer O1 steel generally, it's always easy to sharpen, I don't mind sharpening more often.



I won't bombard you with edge testing bits and bobs, but there is a whole bunch of other reasons O1 steel is nice to use. It's nicest around the hardness that Iles makes their chisels - not sure if they spec irons the same. 

But they have to do with its ability to be strong without being overly tough, which translates to them sharpening easily, dropping the burr in sharpening without a fistfight, and not holding on to deflection or forming burrs in use.


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## Jameshow (14 Jul 2022)

johna.clements said:


> I sharpen with an old facing brick and lidl own brand washing up liquid. Gets a nice shine.


I use a concrete block and old engine oil...!


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I use a concrete block and old engine oil...!


Ho Ho.
I bet you sharpen with £500 worth of kit, spend hours at it, keep trying new gadgets, materials magic honing fluids, keep looking for the secret angle, use feeler gauges, the latest honing jig with all the accessories, diamond plates, 25 grades of microfinishing film, lapping film, watch videos, buy books, spend hours flattening water stones.........yawn
- but still struggling!   
PS come to think it could really be a very long list of stuff which nobody ever felt the need of until fairly recently
Why did sharpening get so difficult, sometime in the 80s I guess? Was no prob for the previous several thousand years, including beginners and amateurs. In fact we were all beginners - including the professionals.


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## D_W (14 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Ho Ho.
> I bet you sharpen with £500 worth of kit, spend hours at it, keep trying new gadgets, materials magic honing fluids, keep looking for the secret angle, use feeler gauges, the latest honing jig with all the accessories, diamond plates, 25 grades of microfinishing film, lapping film, watch videos, buy books, spend hours flattening water stones.........yawn
> - but still no bloody good at it!
> PS come to think it could really be a very long list. Why did sharpening get so difficult, sometime in the 80s I guess? Was no prob for the previous several thousand years, including beginners and amateurs. In fact we were all beginners - including the professionals.



when did people lose the ability to do it well? In 1875, at least, the convention seems to have been keeping stones flat for fine work. 

the loss of cabinetmaking with hand tools pretty much killed it, leaving it to people who use almost entirely power tools telling everyone they know everything about hand tools.


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## Jameshow (14 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Ho Ho.
> I bet you sharpen with £500 worth of kit, spend hours at it, keep trying new gadgets, materials magic honing fluids, keep looking for the secret angle, use feeler gauges, the latest honing jig with all the accessories, diamond plates, 25 grades of microfinishing film, lapping film, watch videos, buy books, spend hours flattening water stones.........yawn
> - but still struggling!
> PS come to think it could really be a very long list.
> Why did sharpening get so difficult, sometime in the 80s I guess? Was no prob for the previous several thousand years, including beginners and amateurs. In fact we were all beginners - including the professionals.


Nope but I must confess to a set of diamond plates.... Father Jacob forgive me...!


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## MikeO (14 Jul 2022)

niall Y said:


> Well, push this thread along ,in a direction it might not wan't to go - Does anyone else remember the use of 'Neats Foot Oil' for oilstones? The only time I ever came across it was in my school woodwork room, eons ago.


ive used it on my boots


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2022)

Salaman's the man.


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2022)

MikeO said:


> ive used it on my boots


Good for machining aluminium apparently Neatsfoot oil - Wikipedia
I've got a tin but can't remember why I bought it. I'll have a go with it for sharpening.


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## Adam W. (14 Jul 2022)

Any new sharpening developments yet ?


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Any new sharpening developments yet ?


Working on it. Getting there slowly - back to the garden of sharpening innocence!


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2022)

mark w said:


> That's not correct Jacob, you can successfully camber a blade with a honing guide without buying any additional rollers, I do it and David Charlesworth demonstrates this in his articles and videos.


Have you got a link?
I found one where he's cambering by first reshaping waterstones with an expensive "Odate Crowning Plate" (or several of them at different radii), which I'd never heard of. Is that what people do?
Easier and cheaper freehand of course, and you don't need to shape a stone, though mine is a bit hollow and will produce a slight camber anyway, if you let it!


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Why did sharpening get so difficult, sometime in the 80s I guess?


We were shown old honing guides in the first year at school ........... 1965.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> We were shown old honing guides in the first year at school ........... 1965.


They did exist even back then (and a lot earlier) but hardly anybody used them.
No need basically.
We weren't shown them at school in my 1955 first year, nor in my C&G course in 1982 but they were becoming more common - and sharpening becoming more difficult!
I bought Stanley (early and late models) and an Eclipse. Still got them in a drawer - untouched for 20 years or more.
The essential detail, jig or freehand, is to bring up a burr across the whole width, however tiny.
If not you will be struggling. I sometimes wonder if this is the detail which escapes some beginners and sends them off in the modern sharpening direction.


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## Tony Zaffuto (15 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> We were shown old honing guides in the first year at school ........... 1965.


I served a four year carpenter apprenticeship in the mid-70’s and the Record honing guide was a required tool to have, along with a Carborundum stone. other sharpening tools included a 42x sawset and saw files. Funny that our instructors never showed us how to use these tools. During that time, I used a powered belt sander with a worn out belt to sharpen edge tools. Had a rounded bevel, and a bit of non-jig honing on a fine stone gave an acceptable edge.


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## mark w (15 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Have you got a link?
> I found one where he's cambering by first reshaping waterstones with an expensive "Odate Crowning Plate" (or several of them at different radii), which I'd never heard of. Is that what people do?
> Easier and cheaper freehand of course, and you don't need to shape a stone, though mine is a bit hollow and will produce a slight camber anyway, if you let it!


Hi Jacob, I don't have a link but his sharpening video demonstrates it and it's in at least one of his books, all available to purchase from his website.


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## MikeK (15 Jul 2022)

Here is the sharpening video from 2015 where David describes the Odate dressing plate for achieving camber on the plane irons:



Here is another video where David demonstrates the Tormek SE-77 jig for setting camber in the plane irons:



However, when I attended his courses in 2019 and 2020, the Odate plate was not used and I never knew it existed until now. Likewise, the SE-77 was not used to establish a camber. David demonstrated how to consistently, accurately, and quickly set the camber using flat water stones and a LN honing jig. He used a DMT diamond plate to flatten the water stones after every use. 

We did use the SE-77 jig on the Tormek with one of the diamond wheels for establishing the primary 25-degree hollow bevel on all of the plane irons and chisels. The adjustment of the SE-77 was great for fine tuning the blade or chisel alignment.

This kit or method is certainly not for everyone, but is one solution to the end result of sharp tools. I don't have the luxury of an apprentice program where I can spend a year learning how to freehand a chisel to Sir's expectation. Of all the resources available to me, I have more money than time, so David's method is what I chose, and I am very happy with the results.


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## Tony Zaffuto (15 Jul 2022)

I ain’t gonna get in the middle of “jig” “no jig” argument, but there is one very clear advantage to using a jig. There are many youngsters here, but as one that will be 70 this September, using a jig is much easier on arthritic fingers (In spite of being out of the trade for 30 years), than freehand. Most of the time, I still free hand.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2022)

MikeK said:


> ..... I don't have the luxury of an apprentice program where I can spend a year learning how to freehand a chisel .....


More like 20 minutes to get the idea and a few hours to get competent! No luxury involved and very little expense or extra kit. 
I don't know how the idea ever came about that it's difficult - it never was in the past.


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## Jacob (15 Jul 2022)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> I ain’t gonna get in the middle of “jig” “no jig” argument, but there is one very clear advantage to using a jig. There are many youngsters here, but as one that will be 70 this September, using a jig is much easier on arthritic fingers (In spite of being out of the trade for 30 years), than freehand. Most of the time, I still free hand.


I'll be 78 in December and have arthritis, more in one hand than the other. Had hip replacement in Feb.
I've always found that holding a jig is very much _less_ comfortable than holding a chisel handle or a plane blade.
The wooden handles (scrap plus saw kerf) knocked up for little blades are much handier than a jig.
One big weakness of jigs is that they don't have handles. A bit like trying to work a plane without handles - possible but not ideal!


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## D_W (15 Jul 2022)

MikeK said:


> Here is the sharpening video from 2015 where David describes the Odate dressing plate for achieving camber on the plane irons:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I never use a jig. I wouldn't recommend someone who gets better results with a jig than they do freehand to sharpen freehand, though, either - that doesn't seem very sensible. 

Teaching a beginner who isn't an apprentice (where you can command they keep doing something until they get it and do it your way) probably tends toward using something like an eclipse guide to get edge geometry right and to bias finishing the tip of the blade properly, which david's three bevel method does. 

I think the crowning plates or whatever those were called, attached to odate, seemed like a good idea but they were expensive and what if you want a different camber? You end up with an expensive plate or three with a need if you want to use another one to work the flat back of something to buy yet another. 

David's method is a jig based version of turning the iron a little bit in sharpening (even a smoother) to introduce cambering. 

Interestingly, the holtzappfel book also mentions doing this, but anyone who freehands for a while and wants to finish plane without much scraping or sanding to follow (or none in ideal situations) will figure that out on their own. 

Tormeks and jigs are kind of the same - they are both slower ways to do something, but they are easier to get right and if one's doing little enough that the speed isn't a concern, then....if it isn't a concern, it isn't a problem. 

Freehanding after you get the feel is kind of like riding a bike, or learning - you have to go through a period of doing it often - in a short period, to get the feel for what works well, but not everyone will ever do that. An experienced sharpener will usually not vary more than a degree or so in a final bevel when doing the method holtzapffel describes - they won't because higher or lower will feel wrong. Eons ago, someone asked me what final angle I use freehand and I didn't know - whatever it takes to stop nicking from occurring and be appreciably steeper than the grind. I got out half a dozen plane irons and all of them were almost exactly 33 degrees. Sometimes it's not important to know that, but it's interesting that it's fairly close to what David recommends with a jig. And Holtzappfel says the same 25 grind, +10 for a small secondary bevel and edge finish established with a "turkish oilstone". Nobody on here will be buying that, but it's the same level of finish of any good finishing stone.


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## throbscottle (16 Jul 2022)

When I was a kid my Grandad, who was a gardener his entire life, taught me to sharpen knives on his oilstone. I've never seen his undulating-slide technique anywhere else, but bloody hell, it worked! If it was very blunt (read: sharp by any other standard) he'd rub it on a bit of emery paper first. He then gave me his oilstone, which was in a lovely wooden box, but it was a long time before I had anything more than my growing collection of pocket knives to sharpen on it.

In school woodwork class I'd learnt about the shape of a chisel blade, although I don't think I was taught specific angles,, but we weren't given the opportunity to actually try it (possibly due to a known limit to combining boys with sharp tools). So when I eventually got some chisels of my own (and at some point I also acquired a plane, but didn't have the space to use it properly), I had quite a bit of learning to do.

Took me a while to work out what to actually do, didn't take so long to work out how slow going it was if the chisel was blunt! So I got the "little and often" message early on. Jigs simply weren't a thing I was aware of until I got an Eclipse drill sharpening jig, which proved to be pretty terrible - I'm so glad I learnt to sharpen them properly! Plane blades proved a bit more challenging and I didn't get much chance to practice.

Sadly my grandad's oilstone went the way of all my first tools, and it was only when I bought similarly shaped and sized carborundum stones (that the oil just goes straight through) that I appreciated what I'd given up (family heritage notwithstanding). But at least I'm now the proud owner of a grinder. That I made out of a hairdryer...


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## Tony Zaffuto (16 Jul 2022)

throbscottle said:


> When I was a kid my Grandad, who was a gardener his entire life, taught me to sharpen knives on his oilstone. I've never seen his undulating-slide technique anywhere else, but bloody hell, it worked! If it was very blunt (read: sharp by any other standard) he'd rub it on a bit of emery paper first. He then gave me his oilstone, which was in a lovely wooden box, but it was a long time before I had anything more than my growing collection of pocket knives to sharpen on it.
> 
> In school woodwork class I'd learnt about the shape of a chisel blade, although I don't think I was taught specific angles,, but we weren't given the opportunity to actually try it (possibly due to a known limit to combining boys with sharp tools). So when I eventually got some chisels of my own (and at some point I also acquired a plane, but didn't have the space to use it properly), I had quite a bit of learning to do.
> 
> ...


I remember viewing a video by “Tools for Working Wood”, about a dozen years or more ago, by Maurice Frazer (IIRC), using oilstones, showing his freehand methods, that were a combination of side to side and back & forth. Used nearly all of the stone’s surface. I was to ingrained with my own freehand style to change, though.


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## Terry - Somerset (16 Jul 2022)

I get a 25 degree main bevel using a jig on my belt sander. I am wary of fire risk (sparks and sawdust are not happy bedfellows but this is an occasional need and monitored.

I use an eclipse jig for plane and chisels to get a consistent angle and reasonably sharp edge. Were I an apprentice working with wood all day, every day then freehand skills would develop quickly.

As a weekend woodworking warrior, sharpening tools to a consistent angle means any problems can be linked to user skill deficiencies rather than inadequate sharpening. 

I use Ultex diamond stones - mostly a combined 400/1000 grit. They may not last a lifetime, just several years of occasional use - but they are 25% of the cost of DMT. 6mm of steel should stay flat.

Bought some leather now, stuck to some 18mm MDF and chrome polish to hone.

All very basic - total cost of all the kit ~£50-75. I did once buy a proper waterstone - within weeks it had developed a definite rut down the middle - now useless without flattening.

I commend this simple approach to no one - it suits me, and I am under no time pressure. I have to accept that I may ignorant of what other methods could be used to improve sharpness!!


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## raffo (16 Jul 2022)

throbscottle said:


> When I was a kid my Grandad, who was a gardener his entire life, taught me to sharpen knives on his oilstone. I've never seen his undulating-slide technique anywhere else, but bloody hell, it worked!


Can you describe this technique a little more?


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## spanner48 (16 Jul 2022)

I'm with Jacob on this. I was taught, back in 1958, how to sharpen anything freehand - including twist, Jennings, Irwin and Forstner drill bits, as well as every sort of plane, chisel, gouge, knife or saw. 

But what's missing here is that getting the primary and secondary bevels right, though important, was much less critical than making sure the face side was REALLY flat. And for that, hollowed or rounded stones are a PITA. So we hade a large steel 'Flatting Plate' at school, and a periodic chore was grinding the sharpening stones flat again using carborundum grit and water. Took about an hour for each stone. 

So for me, diamond stones are a godsend: last far longer; stay flat until they're completely worn out. 

Nowadays I help out - almost always sharpening and toolsetting - at about 20 Repair Cafés around where I live. The people who bring tools in are always surprised that I spend three or four times as long on the face side [or on the 'KIssing Faces' of anything from scissors to hedge clippers] as I do on the sharpening bevel. I always show them how essential it is to raise a burr along the whole cutting edge, before fining the sharpening grind and finally knocking off the wire edge by stropping across the palm of a hand.

And when a diamond stone IS worn out [and I've worn out a few . . ] they're excellent for 'stropping off' a wire edge. My left hand is a bit crippled, so I can't keep it completely flat, and tend to get 'Stropping Slashes' across the palm if I'm not careful.


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## throbscottle (16 Jul 2022)

raffo said:


> Can you describe this technique a little more?


With the blade held so it's being pushed along the stone, it obviously hangs off at either end, pull the blade back and forth so the whole blade gets coverage, at the same time pushing it along the length of the stone. I don't know if he did it this way just because of blade length to stone width ratio, or because it actually does produce a demon-sharp blade, with no burr to worry about.


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## xy mosian (16 Jul 2022)

How fortunate, we are, not to be able to read when learning to walk. I seem to think we just get on with it.
geoff


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2022)

xy mosian said:


> How fortunate, we are, not to be able to read when learning to walk. I seem to think we just get on with it.
> geoff


No prob, there'd be plenty of gadget salesmen standing by, along with booksellers and magazine writers!
If you actually had to learn sharpening from scratch in an emergency e.g. sharpen an axe or chisel to repair a boat you'd been cast away on, you'd find a bit of stone and have it sorted in half an hour or so.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2022)

throbscottle said:


> With the blade held so it's being pushed along the stone, it obviously hangs off at either end, pull the blade back and forth so the whole blade gets coverage, at the same time pushing it along the length of the stone. I don't know if he did it this way just because of blade length to stone length ratio, or because it actually does produce a demon-sharp blade, with no burr to worry about.


It's not really a "technique" though, it's just an obvious way of touching up the whole blade.
I tend to draw a knife across diagonally, starting with heel and ending with toe. Makes no difference and it doesn't do to over think these things!

throbscottle's grandad's oilstone or something probably very similar pops up on ebay all the time. £5 or so.

spanner48's stone flattening perhaps unavoidable in a school or multi user environment but can't say I've ever felt the need myself. Jigs need a flat surface - which of course is the first problem you are likely to hit unless you also buy a new stone (and another stone to flatten it with etc etc!)

Angles get mentioned a lot - there's only one important one - hone the edge at 30º (more or less!)

All the old books advise grinding at 25º and honing at 30º which is excellent advice for the beginner, except it has been mis-interpreted as a _dead flat_ bevel at either angle, which is difficult freehand - so forget flat.
Also mis-interpreted as meaning you _must_ have two bevels, but one at 30º is all you need for smaller chisels or thin plane blades, and bigger ones too, or the rounded bevel which varies from 30º at the edge, to something less. The 25º grind is just to get material off faster and has no bearing on the cutting edge.

It's not obvious at first but all normal planes, chisels and gouges, with or without cambers, are really easy to sharpen freehand, on the same stones, except you may need slip stones for inside gouges and similar, or holders for small blades - made from a few scraps and a saw kerf.


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## xy mosian (16 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> No prob, there'd be plenty of gadget salesmen standing by, along with booksellers and magazine writers!
> If you actually had to learn sharpening from scratch in an emergency e.g. sharpen an axe or chisel to repair a boat you'd been cast away on, you'd find a bit of stone and have it sorted in half an hour or so.


I couldn't agree more jacob.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2022)

Googling "Odate crowning plate" - it seems to have originated in 2005 but become rapidly defunct, presumably with few takers. Not surprising really as it would involve a sizeable outlay in slow and inefficient sharpening aids with very limited use.
It does bring up all sorts of odds and ends such as this unbelievable site Plane Perfect which also looks very dated.
It suggests to me that the days of crazy sharpening are perhaps behind us and things are getting back to normal?


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## hlvd (16 Jul 2022)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> I served a four year carpenter apprenticeship in the mid-70’s and the Record honing guide was a required tool to have, along with a Carborundum stone. other sharpening tools included a 42x sawset and saw files. Funny that our instructors never showed us how to use these tools. During that time, I used a powered belt sander with a worn out belt to sharpen edge tools. Had a rounded bevel, and a bit of non-jig honing on a fine stone gave an acceptable edge.


My instructor in Tech forbid us from using a honing guide, it was hand sharpen only or otherwise you’d never be taken seriously as a joiner.
About ten years later I started using a honing guide and still do as it avoids that dreaded rounded bevel.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2022)

hlvd said:


> My instructor in Tech forbid us from using a honing guide, it was hand sharpen only or otherwise you’d never be taken seriously as a joiner.
> About ten years later I started using a honing guide and still do as it avoids that dreaded rounded bevel.


 No wonder you have to use a jig! Who taught you to dread rounded bevels and why?


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## Ttrees (16 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> Googling "Odate crowning plate" - it seems to have originated in 2005 but become rapidly defunct, presumably with few takers. Not surprising really as it would involve a sizeable outlay in a slow and inefficient sharpening aids with very limited use.
> It does bring up this all sorts of odds and ends such as this unbelievable site Plane Perfect which also looks very dated.
> It suggests to me that the days of crazy sharpening are perhaps behind us and things are getting back to normal?


I have a plate intentionally made the other way round, likely a little flatter profile though.


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## raffo (16 Jul 2022)

throbscottle said:


> With the blade held so it's being pushed along the stone, it obviously hangs off at either end, pull the blade back and forth so the whole blade gets coverage, at the same time pushing it along the length of the stone. I don't know if he did it this way just because of blade length to stone width ratio, or because it actually does produce a demon-sharp blade, with no burr to worry about.


I'm not sure if I'm getting this right, the blade is held diagonal to the length of the stone? as you move it back and forth, it overhangs when it reaches the ends? Isn't that the way a bench stone is typically used? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Jul 2022)

In The Village Carpenter by Walter Rose they were advised to use a stone narrower than blade they were honing so the stone dished end to end but stayed flat side to side.


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## throbscottle (16 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> It's not really a "technique" though, it's just an obvious way of touching up the whole blade.


Got to call it something. "Technique" was the word that came to mind. "Way" is good too. "Method" also works but you're more like to find it in a recipe book. 

If I had a pound for every forum argument I've seen over semantics, I'd be heavier!


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2022)

Plane Perfect does have it's funny moments!






3000 years to reach this peak of perfection! (which nobody was interested in  )
What can one say? Good try chaps, better luck next time? Don't call us we'll call you?


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## throbscottle (16 Jul 2022)

raffo said:


> I'm not sure if I'm getting this right, the blade is held diagonal to the length of the stone? as you move it back and forth, it overhangs when it reaches the ends? Isn't that the way a bench stone is typically used? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.


No, perpendicular. Think of a typical folding pocket knife with a blade 3 inches long, being sharpened on an oilstone 2 1/2 inches wide. So that's half an inch overhang. So pushing the blade down the stone uses the full length of the stone, and sliding the blade back and forth along_ it's_ length, ie, across the stone, as you go, sharpens the full length of the blade (and incidentally keeps it burr-free). Hence I chose to call it *undulating*.

I did attempt to use the side to side motion when I started to sharpen edge tools for the first few times, but it proved too difficult for me.


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## Jacob (16 Jul 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> In The Village Carpenter by Walter Rose they were advised to use a stone narrower than blade they were honing so the stone dished end to end but stayed flat side to side.


Good idea.
And cheaper stone. The Odate 3000 year miracle thing went same way - they went on to make cheaper "half plates" and wrote pages about it. Still not much interest. Probably collectable if you find one on ebay?


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## Tony Zaffuto (16 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> No wonder you have to use a jig! Who taught you to dread rounded bevels and why?


What is wrong with rounded bevels (not aimed at you, Jacob)?


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## D_W (16 Jul 2022)

throbscottle said:


> No, perpendicular. Think of a typical folding pocket knife with a blade 3 inches long, being sharpened on an oilstone 2 1/2 inches wide. So that's half an inch overhang. So pushing the blade down the stone uses the full length of the stone, and sliding the blade back and forth along_ it's_ length, ie, across the stone, as you go, sharpens the full length of the blade (and incidentally keeps it burr-free). Hence I chose to call it *undulating*.
> 
> I did attempt to use the side to side motion when I started to sharpen edge tools for the first few times, but it proved too difficult for me.



This can be done well with the iron on a diagonal as it allows more of the width to remain on the stone. The scratches in the edge still terminate going through the edge rather than along it, and it makes adding camber a little easier. In fact, I think this is much easier both to keep the bevel relatively constant and for the camber reason, though, it's possible to do what you're saying without too much trial end error.


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## steve355 (17 Jul 2022)

MikeO said:


> Most people give up turning because of sharpening. You don't sharpen lathe tools weekly more like hourly.
> I have Sorby Pro Edge which is expensive but best thing I ever bought It takes seconds to touch up once you get profile right.



i made do with a second hand bench sander, and made a solid grinding rest plus the jigs for skew and gouges (not the fingernail type) from scrap bin metal. Total cost about £40 and does the same thing. I’ll get a pro edge one day when it breaks down.

For ordinary chisels imho there’s no substitute for hollow grinding on a wheel, then an oilstone and a strop.

Metal lathe bits, well that’s a whole different story.


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## Oakydoky (17 Jul 2022)

Fine India stone 3in1 oil. No jig. Learn to do it by hand. Compared to other tool skills in woodworking its easy! It helps to eyeball the tip as you lift it a little on the stone and you will see a line of oil just squeeze out, this shows that you are on the bevel. (30deg but that's an estimation that you just learn very easily) Circular or figure of eight movement. Raise a slight even burr then keeping completely flat, flip over and back off to remove the burr. Repeat if necessary but with gentler strokes until there's no burr and it's sharp. I then strop the blade on the Palm of my hand (I doubt anyone would teach that now!) Like this I can easily obtain an edge that you could shave with. This is how I was shown during my yacht joinery apprenticeship in 78. It might even be the same fine India stone. I do have a black Arkansas as well but rarely use it.
So no, no diamond plates or wet/dry stuck to glass etc. Cheap simple quick very effective.


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## Adam W. (17 Jul 2022)

Oakydoky said:


> Fine India stone 3in1 oil. No jig. Learn to do it by hand. Compared to other tool skills in woodworking its easy! It helps to eyeball the tip as you lift it a little on the stone and you will see a line of oil just squeeze out, this shows that you are on the bevel. (30deg) Circular or figure of eight movement. Raise a slight even burr then keeping completely flat, flip over and back off to remove the burr. Repeat if necessary but with gentler strokes until there's no burr and it's sharp. I then strop the blade on the Palm of my hand (I doubt anyone would teach that now!) Like this I can easily obtain an edge that you could shave with. This is how I was shown during my yacht joinery apprenticeship in 78. It might even be the same fine India stone. I do have a black Arkansas as well but rarely use it.
> So no, no diamond plates or wet/dry stuck to glass etc. Cheap simple quick very effective.


That's far too simplistic for people to accept, there must be a jiggy thing in there somewhere that you aren't telling us about.


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## Oakydoky (17 Jul 2022)

I know it's shocking! But no I've never owned or used a jig. To me a jig would remove your ability to feel what you are doing which is 90% of the whole thing.


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## Adam W. (17 Jul 2022)

A customer service agent will be along shortly to tell you that you are doing it wrongly and that you need to but a new Lie-Nielsen fandangle to make your life complete.


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## Jacob (17 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> A customer service agent will be along shortly to tell you that you are doing it wrongly and that you need to but a new Lie-Nielsen fandangle to make your life complete.


Yup. You can't have too many fandangles in this game. 
I strop on my hand too. Not sure if it does anything but it feels right and impresses bystanders.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> That's far too simplistic for people to accept, there must be a jiggy thing in there somewhere that you aren't telling us about.


A wrist.


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## Oakydoky (17 Jul 2022)

I also sharpen my saws 
Original Distons of course.


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## Limey Lurker (17 Jul 2022)

Jacob said:


> No prob, there'd be plenty of gadget salesmen standing by, along with booksellers and magazine writers!
> If you actually had to learn sharpening from scratch in an emergency e.g. sharpen an axe or chisel to repair a boat you'd been cast away on, you'd find a bit of stone and have it sorted in half an hour or so.


I know many people who would use the stone to bash the blunt axe or chisel through the wood.


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## Adam W. (17 Jul 2022)

Limey Lurker said:


> I know many people who would use the stone to bash the blunt axe or chisel through the wood.


We don't talk about them in polite society.


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## Sgian Dubh (17 Jul 2022)

If this whanging on back and forth about sharpening's dark arts (complexities, jig requirements and/or difficulties?) doesn't stop soon I'm going to have resurrect a hoary old chestnut of mine I've got tucked away. Slainte.


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## Adam W. (17 Jul 2022)

It's got to 11 pages without pistols at dawn, what's going on ?



Sgian Dubh said:


> If this whanging on back and forth about sharpening's dark arts (complexities, jig requirements and/or difficulties?) doesn't stop soon I'm going to have resurrect a hoary old chestnut of mine I've got tucked away. Slainte.


I'm not so sure I want to see your hoary old chestnuts, but get them out if you really feel the need to share.


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## D_W (18 Jul 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> If this whanging on back and forth about sharpening's dark arts (complexities, jig requirements and/or difficulties?) doesn't stop soon I'm going to have resurrect a hoary old chestnut of mine I've got tucked away. Slainte.



hit it, richard! as long as a chest-nut isn't a profane growth near your breastbone.


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## Sgian Dubh (19 Jul 2022)

D_W said:


> hit it, richard! as long as a chest-nut isn't a profane growth near your breastbone.





Adam W. said:


> I'm not so sure I want to see your hoary old chestnuts, but get them out if you really feel the need to share.


No need to dig out the hoary old chestnut I'd say. It looks like my threat to post it did the trick, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Jacob (19 Jul 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> No need to dig out the hoary old chestnut I'd say. It looks like my threat to post it did the trick, ha, ha. Slainte.


It was your hoary old chestnuts which set me off on the road to rounded bevel ruin!


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## mikej460 (19 Jul 2022)

Adam W. said:


> It's got to 11 pages without pistols at dawn, what's going on ?
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure I want to see your hoary old chestnuts, but get them out if you really feel the need to share.


Yes I was thinking much the same - you just keep your hoary old chestnuts to yourself..


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## Droogs (19 Jul 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> No need to dig out the hoary old chestnut I'd say. It looks like my threat to post it did the trick, ha, ha. Slainte.


If they are such a good example, shouldn't they have their own chapter in the books next revision? And why weren't they included in the 1st print?


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## Jacob (19 Jul 2022)

Droogs said:


> If they are such a good example, shouldn't they have their own chapter in the books next revision? And why weren't they included in the 1st print?


Maybe trad sharpening (easy, fast, cheap, effective) is a trade secret? 
It hardly gets mentioned in any of the old books, beyond grind at 25º hone at 30º.


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## Sgian Dubh (19 Jul 2022)

Droogs said:


> If they are such a good example, shouldn't they have their own chapter in the books next revision? And why weren't they included in the 1st print?


Well Droogs, it's just a somewhat embellished and tongue-in-cheek story about learning how to sharpen bench chisels and plane irons. You may have seen it, I don't know, but I'd say it's irrelevant to timber technology, the focus of the book. 

Still, it's a thought that if included, but who knows where, it might divert a reader from the dry techy stuff for a wee while and perhaps enhance their reading experience. The truth is, of course, that I don't think the editor or publisher would allow me gratuitously slip it in somewhere, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2022)

Just had a deja vu moment; "Odate plate".
Suddenly remembered my first double sided oil stone, 50+ years old, still kicking around in a cupboard.
It's hollowed and dished both sides.
It forms a camber automatically, whether you want it to or not
It's an Odate oil stone!
Phew that's saved me a few quid!


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## D_W (3 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Maybe trad sharpening (easy, fast, cheap, effective) is a trade secret?
> It hardly gets mentioned in any of the old books, beyond grind at 25º hone at 30º.



This must be a word of your own making, as there is no universally identical method that was "traditional". If you have a site work method, you should call it that. 

Holtzapffel provides a very good method, but they also describe it as 25/35 - and they do so very clearly. Along with mentioning that for better work, it's important that both the iron and the stones are carefully kept flat. 

Plenty of other older literature shows a single flat bevel. 

It's convenient to endorse something that wasn't universally done the same was as having been as a strawman.


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## Adam W. (3 Aug 2022)

Holtzapffel is just one man with an opinion, not the be all and end all of sharpening metal tools.


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## D_W (3 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Holtzapffel is just one man with an opinion, not the be all and end all of sharpening metal tools.



Doing as little as you can to follow that? He's one - others have different instructions and show other edge profiles. the fact that they don't match should be a clue. 

I have received unused or very little used planes from the 1800s and they didn't match holtzapffel, but rather had very long primary bevels and very steep secondary bevels to limit the amount of metal being honed. It's not as if everything was done one way. 

Holtzapffel's other narratives - how planes work and how they should be set up are ideal. He's not just another guy who teaches routers on tuesdays, sharpening to new users wednesdays and then uses a pocket hole jig on site the other three days.


----------



## Jameshow (3 Aug 2022)

I get the impression these new sharpening techniques have exploded on the scene since YouTube came about. Everyman and his dog has a new technique to do an age old job. 

It's the same with cycling you need a "Bike fit" before you can ride a bike!! On the back of which you get the old timers who tell it as it is and get the backs up of the technique 
- YouTube influencers!!


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2022)

Holtzapffel's advice is just the standard advice for total beginners as found in all the old books i.e. grind at 25 and hone at 30 to 35 ish. It's pretty much the universally identical method worldwide, probably since the stone age.


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## Adam W. (3 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> Doing as little as you can to follow that? He's one - others have different instructions and show other edge profiles. the fact that they don't match should be a clue.
> 
> I have received unused or very little used planes from the 1800s and they didn't match holtzapffel, but rather had very long primary bevels and very steep secondary bevels to limit the amount of metal being honed. It's not as if everything was done one way.
> 
> Holtzapffel's other narratives - how planes work and how they should be set up are ideal. He's not just another guy who teaches routers on tuesdays, sharpening to new users wednesdays and then uses a pocket hole jig on site the other three days.


You've been banging on about Holtzapffel for the last three weeks, have you only just discovered him ?


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## Ttrees (3 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I get the impression these new sharpening techniques have exploded on the scene since YouTube came about. Everyman and his dog has a new technique to do an age old job.


Great isn't it, another golden age of skill sharing if you like, 
which probably was last seen on such a scale over a hundred years ago.

Way better than some old dusty book with vague instructions IMO.

Tom


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## D_W (3 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I get the impression these new sharpening techniques have exploded on the scene since YouTube came about. Everyman and his dog has a new technique to do an age old job.
> 
> It's the same with cycling you need a "Bike fit" before you can ride a bike!! On the back of which you get the old timers who tell it as it is and get the backs up of the technique
> - YouTube influencers!!



It's interesting enough just to read the cards that come along with various tools. Stanley had at least one that said to grind at 25 degrees and hone the edge. I've done some screwing around and never found anything that holds up well in wood at 25 degrees, but the damaged edge is thinner and may not matter in coarse work. 

the trouble for beginners is that everyone wants to pitch a method, but nobody wants to tell beginners what the result should be. 

same thing goes with sharpening systems - which i find to be an irk - is to suggest that some set of expensive stones will lead to a finer edge than something else. the stones make almost no difference - accurate grinding and then finishing the edge is all there is, and lapidary grits are cheaper, finer (if desirable) and more closely graded than any stone I've found. 

method and stones together is like some way to corral beginners, though - to make them think they're getting fundamentally different results that can only be had with a specific method. The results are something they never look at, though.


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2022)

Ttrees said:


> Great isn't it, another golden age of skill sharing if you like,


More like the golden age of making things up and pretending to be a sharpening guru!
The first essential is to persuade people that things are difficult, which of course it often _is_ for a beginner, for the first 20 minutes or so.
Once they are hooked you can tell them any old baloney and sell them gadgets / kit/books/magazines/courses - but not to forget to _continue_ to make it difficult or you could lose credibility and sales. 


Ttrees said:


> Way better than some old dusty book with vague instructions IMO.


grind at 25 , hone at 30º - the beginners universally identical method more or less. What else do you need to know? Bringing up a burr right across is about it.
Very pleased with my Odate oil stone (see above) - there could be a market for them!


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> .....
> 
> the trouble for beginners is that everyone wants to pitch a method, but nobody wants to tell beginners what the result should be.


I guess they work it out that it's supposed to result in things being "sharper" otherwise why would they even bother?


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## D_W (3 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> You've been banging on about Holtzapffel for the last three weeks, have you only just discovered him ?



As if you read that I mentioned him and why but missed why. I have the three volume set from around 1840. 

A later update showed up on google books and is searchable. When I googled "flat sharpening stone cabinetmaking" because I figured jacob's constant droning about stones being flat being a new thing, I figured i'd find some older literature that advised a method of honing to keep the stone flat.

The 1875 edition showed up in excerpt, I read it and was stunned how perfect he description of various plane options were. I never read the 2000 pages or whatever of the original set because I hadn't bought them for that. Still haven't pulled the older version out to see if instruction is the same. 

the entire book is a treatise and well detailed, it's not just planecraft or some kind of pocket reference. i didn't go back and look at nicholson, but I think I've seen it before mentioning that it's important to address the tip of the iron separately from the rest. 

There are only two things really important for beginners. Spend $20 on a hand scope and confirm you're sharpening the edge and not leaving damage. Then consider the geometry - 30 degrees will hold up for softwoods, but it won't hold up damage free in hardwoods. The rest is results based - it doesn't matter what the method is and for anyone sharpening enough for it to matter and not just lifting splinters on doorway corners, the desire for doing it faster will follow. 

And it'll end up like holtzapffel. 

if you can't follow that? No, I didn't just stumble on holtzapffel. Yes, I did just stumble on that section of the work. 

Also missing from instructions was sharpening a low bevel angle on a bevel up plane and a large shooting board for square things. Not surprising.


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> As if you read that I mentioned him and why but missed why. I have the three volume set from around 1840.
> 
> A later update showed up on google books and is searchable. When I googled "flat sharpening stone cabinetmaking" because I figured jacob's constant droning about stones being flat being a new thing, I figured i'd find some older literature that advised a method of honing to keep the stone flat.
> 
> ...


Right.


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## D_W (3 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> More like the golden age of making things up and pretending to be a sharpening guru!



Who are these people who are bringing up methods and selling expensive sharpening gear - especially those referenced on here?

Paul Sellers?

I've seen very little of it on here at all, but the strawman you create is seen walking around often. if you stopped blowing air into him, I think he'd collapse.


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## Ttrees (3 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> More like the golden age of making things up and pretending to be a sharpening guru!
> The first essential is to persuade people that things are difficult.
> Once they are hooked you can tell them any old baloney and sell them gadgets / kit/books/magazines/courses - but not to forget to _continue_ to make it difficult or you could lose credibility and sales.
> 
> ...


I can see what you're saying for the absolute beginners,
but I'm talking about skill sharing, which is something intermediate compared.

An intermediate or hobbyist can easily spot those who are skilled,
and get it for free.
No baloney or carp involved 

This is a golden age, and we're getting to see things with our own eyes,
No pretending anymore, or meeting half way in a sorta vague mist of English.
Real evidence in real time.
Searching for #woodworking and whomever may pop up is for others entertainment
and not someone looking for skills. 
What could be better?


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## D_W (3 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> I guess they work it out that it's supposed to result in things being "sharper" otherwise why would they even bother?



The result is a given finish at an edge, and the geometry at the edge and behind it. 

Very easy concepts. 

A beginner can mistake a short lived burr for sharpness. 

The other thing they can see with a small hand held scope is that nothing expensive does any better than all of the cheaper options.


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## Oakydoky (3 Aug 2022)

Wow. Now I understand why sharpening threads can start ww3.
Fine India. 3in1. No jigs. Grind at 25 sharpen at 30. 
The end.
Please?


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2022)

Oakydoky said:


> .......
> Fine India. 3in1. No jigs. Grind at 25 sharpen at 30.
> The end.
> Please?


Yes you've got it, well done.
Don't forget the burr *right across the whole edge. *Planes often wear more in the middle and the burr may come up there last. If you stop too soon you are only part way there.
PS forgot to add - there is just one magic trick, well it seems like it, which is a quick squiggle of candle wax on a plane sole. No special candles required and an average sort of candle will last for many years!


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## D_W (3 Aug 2022)

Oakydoky said:


> Wow. Now I understand why sharpening threads can start ww3.
> Fine India. 3in1. No jigs. Grind at 25 sharpen at 30.
> The end.
> Please?



i'd normally suggest ignoring the thread starter so you no longer see the thread (as in, the ignore function). 

i don't think that'll work well in this case!

As far as the end - there are things like carving and occasionally paring on show surfaces where that will come up short....

but literally a buffer or $10 of lapidary diamonds will go from where you are to that without doing much (ok, anything) else. 

The real boon now for anyone looking for really fine edges is just how cheap lapidary supplies are and just how finely graded even the cheap stuff is.


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## Oakydoky (3 Aug 2022)

Years of experience has taught me that stropping on the Palm of my hand is the best lapidary method!
And I do know what a fine edge is!


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2022)

Oakydoky said:


> Years of experience has taught me that stropping on the Palm of my hand is the best lapidary method!
> And I do know what a fine edge is!


I do that too. Maybe it's just a ritual but it feels as though it's doing something. And it impresses bystanders!


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## Ozi (3 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> 01001001 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110000 01101111 01110000 01100011 01101111 01110010 01101110 00101110


Ha, I have seen past your fiendish code.....Really struggling to get anything sharp with pop corn though - must be a knack.


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## Jacob (3 Aug 2022)

HOLZAPFEL MUSIC


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## D_W (3 Aug 2022)

Oakydoky said:


> Years of experience has taught me that stropping on the Palm of my hand is the best lapidary method!
> And I do know what a fine edge is!



ahh...disregard first comment - I thought you had started this thread but a scroll back shows no. 

I made the mention of another step more or less because paring surfaces off of an india will often result in flaws and shorter edge life with plane irons (like 35% shorter on a smoother). 

replacing the stropping set with a fine abrasive to remove the burr by honing instead of stropping generally makes the 35% difference without adding time to sharpening. 

but perhaps you're sitting on the fact that you already do this when needed. 

this kind of thing is something I wouldn't have believed but in the past have been goaded into testing the results. I stepped from fine down to a washita (which is only barely short of something like an 8k grit waterstone) but fine show surfaces straight off of the tool (especially paring cuts on wooden planes, but I'm sure many other things) suffered. 

The older references that I've seen (hasluck comes to mind) assume that something like a bench sized translucent stone may be a bit too price and recommend something like a washita followed by "emery grit" on a softer surface.


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## Adam W. (4 Aug 2022)

Oakydoky said:


> Wow. Now I understand why sharpening threads can start ww3.
> Fine India. 3in1. No jigs. Grind at 25 sharpen at 30.
> The end.
> Please?


Welcome to woodworkings Möbius strip, a continual loop of sharpening blather.


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## Jacob (4 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Welcome to woodworkings Möbius strip, a continual loop of sharpening blather.


Yebbut there is a sense of slow change and I feel we may have passed the peak of crazy sharpening some years back with the Odate plate; basically expensive diamond encrusted devices (in sets of four) to put a camber on plane blades, and another "dressing" plate intended _to wear out stones instantly;_ dished and hollowed stones being useful for the same thing.
The five plates range from 60 microns to 9 microns diamond size Diamond-Coated Crowning Plates - FineWoodworking. but probably no longer available as they didn't sell, which is good to hear - common sense not quite dead yet!


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## rogxwhit (4 Aug 2022)

Isn't advertising marvellous? Bored with life? - buy product X. Feeling inadequate? - get product Y. There's no end to it, even as the world spirals towards oblivion ....


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## Sgian Dubh (4 Aug 2022)

Darn. I thought I'd managed to kill this monster approximately two weeks ago three pages back.

It looks like all I did was temporarily knock out and concuss the beast (should have checked harder), and it's now woken up and come back to life.

Time to hide away, again, ha, ha. Slainte.


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## D_W (4 Aug 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> There's no end to it, even as the world spirals towards oblivion ....



I haven't observed this part yet, but it is a human tradition to talk about how bad things are. 

I'd rather sharpen stuff than do that, though. Maybe it's a coincidence (this isn't a shot at you - it's probably not hard to figure out who these folks i'm referring to might be), but it does seem that the most ardent about how much time is wasted on sharpening discussions are usually the most miserable either personally or with imaginary "the world is terrible" stuff. And they'll drone on and on about how terrible society has become and then tell other people about how much of a waste of time it is to sharpen things. 

I've always liked sharpening stuff, though more impatient with it than early on. The most miserable person I can think of (or at least one of the most miserable) is one of the first to heckle me about it endlessly. Still goes on about it now. And no, it's not Jacob.


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## D_W (4 Aug 2022)

Sgian Dubh said:


> Darn. I thought I'd managed to kill this monster approximately two weeks ago three pages back.
> 
> It looks like all I did was temporarily knock out and concuss the beast (should have checked harder), and it's now woken up and come back to life.
> 
> Time to hide away, again, ha, ha. Slainte.



Richard....you can't kill a bear with a fly swatter. No matter how hard you swing.


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## mikej460 (4 Aug 2022)

We've got builders in. Yesterday I watched one of them sit down on his step-up with a cordless mini grinder fitted with a diamond cutting disk in one hand and a brand new chisel in the other. He then proceeded to 'hone' his chisel before starting work. I had to walk away, it was too painful to watch..


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## Spectric (4 Aug 2022)

mikej460 said:


> We've got builders in. Yesterday I watched one of them sit down on his step-up with a cordless mini grinder fitted with a diamond cutting disk in one hand and a brand new chisel in the other.


Thats a builder for you, many are jack of all trades but master of none and I have seen there handwork, need a hole through some sterling board to get a pipe through, no problems and you get a hole smashed through with a hammer!!


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## mikej460 (4 Aug 2022)

Spectric said:


> Thats a builder for you, many are jack of all trades but master of none and I have seen there handwork, need a hole through some sterling board to get a pipe through, no problems and you get a hole smashed through with a hammer!!


what really made me laugh was when I said 'well that's different' he replied with cordless grinder and diamond disk in hand, 'I do it the traditional way'..


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## D_W (5 Aug 2022)

mikej460 said:


> he replied ....'I do it the traditional way'..


"I know a guy you should talk to. He says his method is the traditional way".


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## MCTWoodwork (5 Aug 2022)

I would report your potential exposure to the local council. My Uncle sadly died of asbestos poisoning, he was a GPO engineer for literally a few years before eventually running Telco's sales around the world. To work out where it came from it was theorised as an old GPO engineer (like my old man used to be) they were all given a tin of fibres made by Rawl (before they made them plastic...) which he (as was the norm) proceeded to mix in his mouth with spit, and use them to fit/fix boxes/telephones and comms equipment to walls etc. Awful. Bless him, I really do miss my Uncle Mac so much as well. What a character, a really funny & generous man. It's a cruel cruel world.


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## Spectric (5 Aug 2022)

Asbestos turns up in places that you don't initially think of such as gaskets, old electrical distribution equipment and even light fittings.


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## Oakydoky (5 Aug 2022)

Phew.... I'm ok with my India stone then.


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## Jacob (5 Aug 2022)

One positive from this thread - I've rediscovered my long neglected 50+ year old double sided oil stone, dished and hollowed to boggery both sides, and how useful it is for quickly shaping cambered edges if needed. Thank you Mr Odate.


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## yan89 (8 Aug 2022)

Sorry if this is already mentioned elsewhere, but is a bench grinder the only way to reset a primary bevel without spending 40 mins using a honing jig on a diamond stone by hand?

I don’t own a bench grinder and have been watching Rob Cosman’s video on resetting primary bevels for tips but it seems he’s really keen on the investment rather than alternatives so thought I’d ask here first


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## D_W (8 Aug 2022)

bench grinder is probably the cheapest. Cheap grinder, decent rest (you can make it if you have to) and the coarsest wheel you can find - a 24 grit tool room wheel actually works really well. 

And a cheap dressing tool. 

you can get more expensive options (like CBN wheels and bigger grinders, etc) but CBN doesn't work any better than a 24 grit tool room wheel and they do (CBNs) get tired after a while. They're certainly not up to the challenge of cutting primary bevels on many newly made tools. 

You may find that you've triggered people to all provide their favorite pet option. 

if you're going to do a primary by hand, you really, though, should do it every time you sharpen so that the amount of work is spread over each sharpening. It will sort of dictate what you like to use in a plane iron and grinding will be more accurate with a grinder where you don't remove the actual edge of the tool. Belt sanders, etc, are OK, but there's no great virtue in running the edge off of a tool. 

Comments above come from pretty much trying it all. if I could only have one thing, it would be a cheap grinder with a really coarse wheel and the cheapest chinese wheel dressing tool (T-shaped).


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Sorry if this is already mentioned elsewhere, but is a bench grinder the only way to reset a primary bevel without spending 40 mins using a honing jig on a diamond stone by hand?
> 
> I don’t own a bench grinder and have been watching Rob Cosman’s video on resetting primary bevels for tips but it seems he’s really keen on the investment rather than alternatives so thought I’d ask here first


No it's not ever been already mentioned elsewhere!  
It's fast freehand on an oil stone once you've got the knack of energetic grinding and
is the best way with thin modern plane blades as there is no chance of over heating.
It's quite possible with thick old blades too, if you have to, but helps if you bolt them to a bit of 2x1" by way of a handle so you can put more energy into it.
Chisels are narrower and already have handles so freehand an oil stone is the obvious way.
Honing jigs slow things down.
The best power option is a flat sanding disc as they run cooler and flatter than a bench grinder.
We were taught (in two training experiences) never to use small bench grinders for sharpening, as blades easily over heat, can waste lots of metal and end up looking as though nibbled by rats. Big slow wet wheels preferred option back then.


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## yan89 (9 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> No it's not ever been already mentioned elsewhere!
> It's fast freehand on an oil stone once you've got the knack of energetic grinding and
> is the best way with thin modern plane blades as there is no chance of over heating.
> It's quite possible with thick old blades too, if you have to, but helps if you bolt them to a bit of 2x1" by way of a handle so you can put more energy into it.
> ...


Oh really? I have a trend 300/1000 diamond stone and the veritas honing guide and it still took me a good 40 mins..

When you say energetic, do you refer to the downward pressure applied to the plane iron, the vigour of the strokes or both?!

Also would you just grind the iron on the oil stone then go through finer grits on scary sharp or similar for the secondary?


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Oh really? I have a trend 300/1000 diamond stone and the veritas honing guide and it still took me a good 40 mins..
> 
> When you say energetic, do you refer to the downward pressure applied to the plane iron, the vigour of the strokes or both?!


Both. Fast and furious over the whole length of the stone. Don't worry about primary/secondary flat bevels as long as you don't exceed 30º


yan89 said:


> Also would you just grind the iron on the oil stone then go through finer grits on scary sharp or similar for the secondary?


I don't think in terns of primary/secondary/micro bevel. I tend to use just one fine stone nearly all the time but occasionally a coarser one if it needs more metal taking off.
I recently rediscovered an old dished and hollowed stone which is brilliant for shaping cambers, then to be finished on the fine stone


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## Blackswanwood (9 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Sorry if this is already mentioned elsewhere, but is a bench grinder the only way to reset a primary bevel without spending 40 mins using a honing jig on a diamond stone by hand?
> 
> I don’t own a bench grinder and have been watching Rob Cosman’s video on resetting primary bevels for tips but it seems he’s really keen on the investment rather than alternatives so thought I’d ask here first



No it’s not the only way - there are 101ways and you won’t find consensus on which is best. If you have a few days (weeks) to spare have a read back through some of the debates (bickering) on the topic.

One possible solution if you want to go faster is use a more coarse stone or plate and then switch back to a finer one to finish off.

I personally use a Tormek - it works for me but others will have their own chosen methods and there will be those who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their way.


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2022)

Blackswanwood said:


> No it’s not the only way - there are 101ways .....


Mostly of recent invention. But there is a long established traditional way -


Blackswanwood said:


> One possible solution if you want to go faster is use a more coarse stone or plate and then switch back to a finer one to finish off.


- and that is it! Traditionally with reference to angles of 25/30º ish


Blackswanwood said:


> I personally use a Tormek - it works for me but others will have their own chosen methods and there will be those who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their way.


Never tried one but all users comment on how slow they are, which seems to miss the point of power tool.


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## Blackswanwood (9 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> But there is a long established traditional way -
> 
> - and that is it! Traditionally with reference to angles of 25/30º ish
> 
> Never tried one but all users comment on how slow they are, which seems to miss the point of power tool.


As I said there will be some who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their chosen way


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2022)

Blackswanwood said:


> As I said there will be some who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their chosen way


Feel free to do it how you like - but the question was asked. People can make their own minds up.
PS the one essential fine and coarse stone I use is a Norton Combination "O" but there are dozens of similar. The best basic beginners stone is something like the Norton IB8 which is medium and coarse. A medium grit is good for most purposes and is good for beginners as you get tangible results quicker.


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## D_W (9 Aug 2022)

Blackswanwood said:


> I personally use a Tormek - it works for me but others will have their own chosen methods and there will be those who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their way.



Tormek gets a lot of grief, and sometimes from me. The one thing I remember about it is as soon as it starts to get slow, hit it with the diamond truing tool and it'll be faster again. I'd gotten cheap while using mine not wanting to grade off the stone surface with the diamond truing tool. 

I may have already said it in this very thread, but I've heard that some insurers won't allow spark-making tools under their policies (commercial, I would assume, I don't think anyone would ever ask on a residential policy), and in that case, the tormek would work well. )

i'd rather have a tormek than grind by hand. Nobody grinds as accurately by hand as they think they they do and the bias is always toward not finishing the job.


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## yan89 (9 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> Tormek gets a lot of grief, and sometimes from me. The one thing I remember about it is as soon as it starts to get slow, hit it with the diamond truing tool and it'll be faster again. I'd gotten cheap while using mine not wanting to grade off the stone surface with the diamond truing tool.
> 
> I may have already said it in this very thread, but I've heard that some insurers won't allow spark-making tools under their policies (commercial, I would assume, I don't think anyone would ever ask on a residential policy), and in that case, the tormek would work well. )
> 
> i'd rather have a tormek than grind by hand. Nobody grinds as accurately by hand as they think they they do and the bias is always toward not finishing the job.


When you say it's 'slow', I presume it's much quicker than hand-grinding?


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## D_W (9 Aug 2022)

On any blade that's thick and relatively hard, it will be a lot faster. But when used right, it's a very accurate machine, removing all but the last bit of the blade, and not really punishing you even if you do grind through to the edge. 

An accurate grind will result in better honing and better honing results in a plane working better and cutting longer before clearance runs out. 

On thin irons, with a friable crystolon stone, you could hone as fast, but nobody will do that as accurately. 

There are sneaky places to waste time with hand tools, but there aren't many people who use them enough to notice them. If you work entirely by hand, youc an discern how much work you're getting done between sharpenings more easily, or how much longer a plane will go before it stops starting a cut near you as easily. That part is important if you're working entirely by hand because dimensioning wood isn't the hack and slash nonsense that you seen on youtube or from book writers, it's a matter of working accurately at a reasonable rhytm and making sure each stroke of a plane is doing what it should. Which isn't working slow, but maybe working 3/4ths as fast as you would think you could ramming away, but ultimately working more accurately and still working through a greater volume of wood. 

The reason a dry grinder is nice is because it's cheap, it's quick and if you're only removing metal that's not all the way at the edge, you still maintain the orientation of the edge by hand. My first grinder was a 150mm ryobi grinder with a 250 watt motor. It wasn't a great grinder, but it would be easily good enough to sharpen everything I've ever sharpened. 

Having water at the tormek was part of the reason that I sent mine packing - it was a little too fiddly and the dry grinder is faster - and sometimes my shop gets near freezing. It's miserable to get 35 degree F water on cold hands. 

But one of the things that seems to bother people the most about a tormek is that there are people who can freely dump $1000 on one plus some accessories and be comfortable enough to spend that without having to have too much regard. 

(nearly forgot - dust - another reason some people seem to like a tormek is that there will be no free dust laying around or in the air, and with a grinder, there will be some unless you hook a vacuum to the dust ports.)


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## Adam W. (9 Aug 2022)

A $1000 dollars for a Tormek ! 

LOL, You're being properly done.


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## D_W (9 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> A $1000 dollars for a Tormek !
> 
> LOL, You're being properly done.


Beats paying $1000 in fees to someone with a masters in wood art.

I bought a used supergrind about a dozen years ago or more for $300 with a bunch of attachments. 

Guy that got me into woodworking was a career engineering manager with an attorney spouse. If he spent $1000 for a tormek, it would be one of the cheaper pieces of motorized equipment in his shop. 

I think if someone felt like they were having a go at him about spending that kind of money - or I should say I know what he'd do - he'd probably ask you how you got to where you are. English fellow, too. Moved to the states to get away from the mentality that his dad was a tradie so he should be, too.


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## Adam W. (9 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> Beats paying $1000 in fees to someone with a masters in wood art.


Ahem! 

Two masters degrees in wood art, thank you!


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## TRITON (9 Aug 2022)

Ask yourself - What did they do in the 18th and 19th centuries ?.

Certainly not ultra accurate edge, laser honed to the exact degree, on a 10,000 grit whatever. And yet some of the finest cabinetry, far surpassing what the majority of us(Adam excepted) can achieve were turned out daily, now filling the museums of the world.


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## Jacob (9 Aug 2022)

TRITON said:


> Ask yourself - What did they do in the 18th and 19th centuries ?.
> 
> Certainly not ultra accurate edge, laser honed to the exact degree, on a 10,000 grit whatever. And yet some of the finest cabinetry, far surpassing what the majority of us can achieve were turned out daily, now filling the museums of the world.


Tool making was one thing, but once in the hands of the woodworker all he had to do was to hone the edge a little and often at about 30º, which would be freehand on fine stone. Then occasionally speed it up by grinding at 30º or less on a coarse stone or a hand cranked grind-wheel.
Simple stuff, hardly gets a mention in the old books, taken for granted, any fool can do it!
And of course, is _still_ all you need to do in spite of the amazing proliferation of kit, gadgets, methods, in recent years.
Nice book on the industrial side of things is "Back to the Grindstone" by Herbert Housley - mostly about Sheffield cutlery pre WW2 but woodwork tools were made in same shops by the same people. The Hawley Museum is well worth a visit. Just up the road from me!


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## thetyreman (9 Aug 2022)

also this obsession with getting the exact angle is ridiculous, if it's anywhere between 17.5 and 35 degrees and sharp I'll use it, I don't really care that much anymore about the exact angle, if it takes me more than 3 minutes to sharpen a blade I get annoyed, you've got to be efficient if you want to work with hand tools, even if it's a hobby, you'll save enourmous amounts of time that can be better spent making.


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## Noel (9 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> A $1000 dollars for a Tormek !
> 
> LOL, You're being properly done.



Shop had big windows.... : )


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## D_W (9 Aug 2022)

thetyreman said:


> also this obsession with getting the exact angle is ridiculous, if it's anywhere between 17.5 and 35 degrees and sharp I'll use it, I don't really care that much anymore about the exact angle, if it takes me more than 3 minutes to sharpen a blade I get annoyed, you've got to be efficient if you want to work with hand tools, even if it's a hobby, you'll save enourmous amounts of time that can be better spent making.



you may have been taking the wee a little bit, but you're pretty close to the effective usefulness of everything from straight razors to tools for hardwood. 

I think it's not important to know what the actual angle is. If you're doing to do a lot of hand tool work, it's important to know how to set up a tool so that the edge doesn't get damaged, though. that's a fairly narrow window, and the discussion on the internet tends toward angles instead of tending toward knowing where you tools are just right. 

A few years ago, someone asked if I would measure the angle on my plane irons and they were all within a degree of 33 degrees. Freehanded, but they're freehanded off of a quality grind, which is way different than freehanding something where you're trying to abrade a huge cross section of metal. 

I think straight razors are around 16-18 degrees, but they don't hold up unless the tip is rounded ala unicorn - which is exactly what the barber linen and shell leather do - they burnish the very tip of the razor round but leave the angle behind the edge very thin and the combination allows for hundreds of shaves without any perceived dullness increase.


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## CMax (10 Aug 2022)

My first introduction to proper sharpening was at a woodworking course about 15 years ago by a chap called Bruce Luckhurst in Ashford. Lovely chap, excellent teacher. In a week, he taught us how to tune up old planes and chisels, sharpen them, dimension stock, cut dovetails and make and veneer a drawer front. As far as I can remember, everyone in that class had sharp tools after the day's tuning/sharpening lesson.

The method was very simple: flatten the back on a Norton oilstone using neatsfoot oil, then hand grind the bevel using a figure-of-eight motion. Then it was stropped on a bit of a leather and you were good to go.

@D_W - I watched some of your videos on the unicorn buffing technique (and read your posts here), but I'm a little vague on the whole method. Do I have it right?

1. Grind a 25 degree primary bevel.
2. Freehand hone the 30+ degree secondary bevel on a stone
3. Ruler trick the back.
4. Polish the front and back on a powered buffing machine (or compound on wood)

If that is the case, are you recommending to re-grind the primary every time the plane blade/chisel is sharpened, or do you let the secondary bevel grow larger with each sharpening and only re-grind when it gets too wide?


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

* grind at 20
* hone at a few degrees more (like 23 if you would like a number that was measured, not chosen - as in, I figured out the method without measuring anything and then took a side profile of a chisel later when measurements were requested)
* back flattened - no ruler trick
* buff chisel bevel side into the buffing wheel holding subjectively about 45 degrees to the wheel, or about 15 degrees or so more than just having the bevel tangent to the buffer

I don't generally use the ruler trick - when you use cap irons on a plane, to get all of the wear out of an iron with the ruler trick, you end up chasing the back bevel bigger and bigger, and it's counterproductive.


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## Jacob (10 Aug 2022)

CMax said:


> ....
> 
> The method was very simple: flatten the back on a Norton oilstone using neatsfoot oil, then hand grind the bevel using a figure-of-eight motion. Then it was stropped on a bit of a leather and you were good to go.
> 
> .....


That's it - with tiny variations.
E.G. Any thin oil will do. Doesn't have to be literally a figure of 8 - can be a swirl, or straight up and down, round and about, whichever way to use the whole surface of the stone. To be sure that I have honed 100% I bring up a burr across the whole width before turning it over to flatten and take the burr off, or do the "without a ruler"* trick on old not very flat blades.
* same as the ruler trick but without a ruler - it's easier.
A little and often, quick, easy, cheap, simple, traditional.
About as difficult as sharpening a pencil with a knife.


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## yan89 (10 Aug 2022)

Blackswanwood said:


> No it’s not the only way - there are 101ways and you won’t find consensus on which is best. If you have a few days (weeks) to spare have a read back through some of the debates (bickering) on the topic.
> 
> One possible solution if you want to go faster is use a more coarse stone or plate and then switch back to a finer one to finish off.
> 
> I personally use a Tormek - it works for me but others will have their own chosen methods and there will be those who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their way.


Out of interest, which Tormek did you go for? and which attachments do you need for plane & chisel sharpening alone? Still completely undecided but wanted to price it up out of interest


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## Blackswanwood (10 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Out of interest, which Tormek did you go for? and which attachments do you need for plane & chisel sharpening alone? Still completely undecided but wanted to price it up out of interest


I have the T3 which I think has become the T4 in the current range.

Either of these will do what you are looking for






SE-77 Square Edge Jig - Tormek







www.tormek.com










SVD-110 Tool Rest - Tormek







www.tormek.com





It works for me but I’m definitely not holding it out as the right way for everyone. I settled on it after doing a course with Chris Tribe in Ilkley where various methods were available to try. 

I re-established the bevel on a Clifton Plane iron on Saturday in about ten minutes. I have no doubt others can match or beat that with their chosen method.


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Out of interest, which Tormek did you go for? and which attachments do you need for plane & chisel sharpening alone? Still completely undecided but wanted to price it up out of interest



the square edge jig is really all you need, but if it doesn't come with a diamond truing tool, I'd get that also as the way to make the thing work fast is to skim the dullness off of the wheel regularly. 

or you can buy one of the CBN wheels that are made for them and sell the stock wheel online somewhere. I know a guy here in the states who likes the low dust of the tormek and who loves the CBN wheel. 

the floor of my shop is practically black sometimes, at least in parts, so It doesn't mean as much to me. 

I'd advise looking around or asking for used if you are thinking about one, and the supergrind/2000/T8 used first if you can find one. they are not the budget option, but they do work and they will keep your hands clean while grinding and keep dust out of the air. 

they also never really ever break - the US distributor for them has had to replace one, and the one he replaced was being used by a sawmaker to taper saw plates. The only real fault of the older ones is that the arbor can rust to the wheel. Anything newer has a stainless arbor. 

The only real reason that they're expensive is because they refuse to make them overseas and they provide good dealer support. It's not a poor man's tool, but it's an honest offering compared to a lot of the junk that's on the market. 

(I still like a dry grinder with a really coarse wheel better).


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> bench grinder is probably the cheapest. Cheap grinder, decent rest (you can make it if you have to) and the coarsest wheel you can find - a 24 grit tool room wheel actually works really well.
> 
> And a cheap dressing tool.
> 
> ...



Let it be said that David probably sharpens more blades in one day than the remainder of the UK and USA combined in a year! It is no wonder that he has worn out a CBN wheel! 

David, as you recall, I turned you on to CBN wheels. You went for a 80 grit and I predominantly have used a 180 grit. Since I have used one longer than you, and since my 180 grit should wear faster than your 80 grit, it says something that my wheels are still going strong some 7 years later. But I represent the average Weekend Warrior, albeit one who builds a fair wack of furniture and uses hand tools a lot of the time. What I am saying is that CBN wheels are truly excellent and will last a long time. Plus the dust off them is far less than off a 24 grit white wheel, and they require minimal maintenance. Since there is minimal wear for normal human beings, angle settings on tool rests do not change. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## MikeK (10 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> The only real reason that they're expensive is because they refuse to make them overseas and they provide good dealer support. It's not a poor man's tool, but it's an honest offering compared to a lot of the junk that's on the market.



By "overseas", I assume you mean China. My T8 is clearly marked made in Sweden, which is not overseas for me, but is overseas for the U.S. market. Does Tormek have another factory for North America?


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Aug 2022)

My Supergrind was rusted to a lump at the end of 10 years. I had stopped using it after 5 years. Too slow and lots of upkeep. The tool rest is excellent, and I use it (BGM-100) on my CBN bench grinder. That is the best of both worlds - speed, accuracy and repeatability.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

MikeK said:


> By "overseas", I assume you mean China. My T8 is clearly marked made in Sweden, which is not overseas for me, but is overseas for the U.S. market. Does Tormek have another factory for North America?



No, good point - overseas over here generally means going to china or somewhere else that costs much more. Poor choice of words. Sweden is where machines sold in the US are made, too. 

Jet made a competing machine that had a lower quality wheel with a higher top speed and variable speed control. It also had very poor quality connectors/electrics and a lot of them failed to work here pretty quickly. At the time, there was a lot of complaining about Tormek's price. 

( I just looked - jet's machine is now $489 in the US and is made in china. I'm sure it's OK - but the increases in price are pretty much in line with what jet looks to be doing - my opinion, making up for being bought and sold several times and widening the gap between make price and sold price ).


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> Let it be said that David probably sharpens more blades in one day than the remainder of the UK and USA combined in a year! It is no wonder that he has worn out a CBN wheel!
> 
> David, as you recall, I turned you on to CBN wheels. You went for a 80 grit and I predominantly have used a 180 grit. Since I have used one longer than you, and since my 180 grit should wear faster than your 80 grit, it says something that my wheels are still going strong some 7 years later. But I represent the average Weekend Warrior, albeit one who builds a fair wack of furniture and uses hand tools a lot of the time. What I am saying is that CBN wheels are truly excellent and will last a long time. Plus the dust off them is far less than off a 24 grit white wheel, and they require minimal maintenance. Since there is minimal wear for normal human beings, angle settings on tool rests do not change.
> 
> ...



yes on the 80 grit. I was aware of the CBN before you showed them and the reason for CBN instead of diamond, but somehow you managed to put the weight on the seesaw hat tipped the balance. 

I have two cbn wheels - one is a very cheap flat wheel directly from china ($50) that claimed to be aluminum - it's mild steel, which Is fine. They're all heavy. the other is from woodturner's wonders. They both still work, they've just slowed a lot. 

When the 80 grit was new, it cut deeper than a 46 grit pink wheel by a lot. 

You're right, even if it's just regular day to day stuff, I'd probably grind something every several hours in the shop. Add in toolmaking and it's hard on a wheel. I don't think they'll ever stop cutting, but both wheels are slower than a 24 grit gray wheel and a little easier to burn tools with, but a 24 grit regular grade tool room wheel is kind of a different animal than most more coarse wheels. It's too bad they're not offered with more regularity. Their density is lower - I don't know why - maybe big particles don't stack as much, and they don't glaze as easily. they do shed grit, though - the CBN wheel doesn't noticeably shed anything, but with raking light, you can see a lot of fine dust going into the air coming off of it. 

I guess it depends on what people want. I like to refresh a hollow in 30 seconds to a minute if possible.


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## CMax (10 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> * grind at 20
> * hone at a few degrees more (like 23 if you would like a number that was measured, not chosen - as in, I figured out the method without measuring anything and then took a side profile of a chisel later when measurements were requested)
> * back flattened - no ruler trick
> * buff chisel bevel side into the buffing wheel holding subjectively about 45 degrees to the wheel, or about 15 degrees or so more than just having the bevel tangent to the buffer
> ...


Thanks for the clarification, David. I have since found and read a few of your articles that further enlightened me on the method. I'm intrigued to try this out. Having only need of one stone and a buffer is very appealing. This wouldn't add much time or cost to the method I'm used to and seems like it will provide a much-improved result. I have a set of Ashley Iles chisels, and it would be great to have them perform longer between sharpening sessions. 

The angles you suggest, would that be the same for both plane and chisels edge?


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

CMax said:


> Thanks for the clarification, David. I have since found and read a few of your articles that further enlightened me on the method. I'm intrigued to try this out. Having only need of one stone and a buffer is very appealing. This wouldn't add much time or cost to the method I'm used to and seems like it will provide a much-improved result. I have a set of Ashley Iles chisels, and it would be great to have them perform longer between sharpening sessions.
> 
> The angles you suggest, would that be the same for both plane and chisels edge?



You could do the same for plane irons, but I'd buff both sides of the bevel moderately if you do (not on chisels, though!!). It's possible to buff only the bevel side, but I think most people will have trouble doing that as it creates clearance problems. 

On bevel up planes like block planes, whatever you honed angle would be to control tearout minus 5%, so if you hone a block plane to 40 degrees, then 35 + heavy buffing instead, and only on one side of the iron just like a chisel. 

realistically, I think just honing a plane iron is better because they don't get hammered into things, but you can use a fairly crude stone like an india stone and buff both sides while removing the burr (like regular stanley plane) and sharpness will be improved. 

At this point, I lightly buff plane irons after thinning the burr with a few light alternating strokes so that the burr comes off easily. Sort of a replacement for stropping. Chisels and bevel up planes (rarely use the latter, and just have one block plane) get the full one-side treatment. 

Ashley iles chisels should pretty much wear you out before they need much if you give them the buffer treatment, and for no increase in effort or sharpness using them. 

The first feedback I heard from this method was from a guy cutting seams off of I guess reinforced plastic moulds. He said that he and his employees tried using chisels in the past to pare off the seams because it's easy, but they are immediately dull. With the apex buffed off, they can generally trim seams off and on all day and sharpen once. Cutting composite, polymer or fiber materials wasn't exactly the target audience, but you never know what you'll find. The guy was a woodworking club member in TN and I guess he figured he'd take the method back to his shop and give chisels another go.


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## yan89 (10 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> the square edge jig is really all you need, but if it doesn't come with a diamond truing tool, I'd get that also as the way to make the thing work fast is to skim the dullness off of the wheel regularly.
> 
> or you can buy one of the CBN wheels that are made for them and sell the stock wheel online somewhere. I know a guy here in the states who likes the low dust of the tormek and who loves the CBN wheel.
> 
> ...


On this 'dry grinder & course wheel' method, are you referring ideally to an 8 inch CBN wheel used without a water bath?


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> On this 'dry grinder & course wheel' method, are you referring ideally to an 8 inch CBN wheel used without a water bath?



Dry grinder and coarse wheel would be for a high speed grinder. I have both 6 and 8 inch full speed grinders, but I don't know what luck others would have with 8 inch full speed. You trade speed for pressure as getting a heavy hand on an 8" full speed grinder is a fast heat maker, so a coarse wheel and light pressure with discretion makes it faster. without discretion it makes it _burn things_ faster.

The CBNs that I have are on a 6" full speed grinder.

I don't think the grinder matters that much if following the oft-given advice of 6" full speed or 8" half (or variable) speed. I like the full speed 8" grinders for heavy work - mine are not high priced grinders (the big ones), but they are not the lower powered 600-800 watt or whatever grinders offered to woodworkers - they're tool room grinders with something like 1350 watts, so they can make use of the power at high speed for actual toolmaking, and one is tied up using a dry high speed belt attachment.

The 6" grinder that I have is just the lower powered baldor version, and it's a better grinder than the one I started with, but I have to admit that I don't think it saves any time over the original $38 grinder.

As far as the tormek goes, I believe that's also used dry with CBN - maybe it can be used either way, but since the CBN doesn't grade and clog like the aluminum oxide wheel, it can be used dry. Albeit likely with higher pressure - it's been a long time since I gave my older tormek to a friend who expressed interest in it. if my calculations are correct, a full speed 8" grinder runs about 126 feet a second and the tormek runs about 4.

The tormek either the gray wheel (which is very good quality) or CBN - I had others that I found for bargain/clearance (the fine wheel, the black wheel) and I guess the black wheel would be OK but it has to be graded by the diamond truing tool. The waterstone wheel was a waste, but I got it for half price and sold it later for something more than I paid for it. Tormek sells the system as a grinding and honing system, but it falls short honing if you have even basic hand sharpening skills. It's a grinder. 

I don't know what point grinders become really dangerous, but a catch on a high powered 8" grinder that breaks the wheel would be very violent. I've grown to like the wheel speed, but it does by feel seem to be big enough with a heavy wide wheel to suggest it could be a bomb if something got trapped between the rest and wheel while running full speed.


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## CMax (10 Aug 2022)

I understand now, thanks, David! I'll report back my findings when I get time, though I'm sure it'll be of no surprise to you, given all your experience with this method.


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

Should be easier to get right than a regular method on chisels. I've only been able to present it once in person, but the group that tried it seemed to all have success on the first go. Not a group of dedicated hand tool workers by any means from what I could tell. 

buffing both sides of the bevel on a cheaper lockback pocket knife will be shocking. Not because of sharpness so much as how long cheap soft knives will remain sharp if you can prevent the edges from deflecting.


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## Ttrees (10 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> * grind at 20
> * hone at a few degrees more (like 23 if you would like a number that was measured, not chosen - as in, I figured out the method without measuring anything and then took a side profile of a chisel later when measurements were requested)
> * back flattened - no ruler trick
> * buff chisel bevel side into the buffing wheel holding subjectively about 45 degrees to the wheel, or about 15 degrees or so more than just having the bevel tangent to the buffer
> ...


I've seen you buff the flat minutely also, care to clarify...should it make sense?
Just wondering if you changed your mind about that, or happened to forget to add that little snippet.
Cheers
Tom


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

Ttrees said:


> I've seen you buff the flat minutely also, care to clarify...should it make sense?
> Just wondering if you changed your mind about that, or happened to forget to add that little snippet.
> Cheers
> Tom



I do that to chase any burr that's been turned to the back off. 

If someone has a buffer around, this will make sense, if not it may not - this part I'm about to type specifically. 

The buffer has very little cutting power on the corner of a stitched wheel, so it won't round a back much. The center of the wheel with a tool pushed in and it will do quite a bit. 

So my preference at this point is to feed the tool across the center of the wheel on the "cut side" and then clean off the back side with a light pass across the corner of the buffing wheel both to remove any remaining burr - there really shouldn't be any - and to clean off any line of compound and swarf that may stick to the side opposite the bevel.


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## yan89 (10 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> Dry grinder and coarse wheel would be for a high speed grinder. I have both 6 and 8 inch full speed grinders, but I don't know what luck others would have with 8 inch full speed. You trade speed for pressure as getting a heavy hand on an 8" full speed grinder is a fast heat maker, so a coarse wheel and light pressure with discretion makes it faster. without discretion it makes it _burn things_ faster.
> 
> The CBNs that I have are on a 6" full speed grinder.
> 
> ...


Sorry to continue questioning, but when you say 'full speed' 6 inch grinder, is there a set speed it should (or shouldn't) exceed? I'd rather not drop £4-500 on a Tormek before I know i'll get benefit out of it, but there's grinders available new on a certain brazilian rainforest themed site for £40 (Einhell TH-BG 150 2980RPM), £55 (Clarke CBG6RP 2900RPM) or £83 (Record RPBG6 2850 RPM) which wouldn't seem like as much of an investment in the short term


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## D_W (10 Aug 2022)

full speed here is typically 3450-3600 rpm, but anything high 2000s or more is probably "full speed"., maybe for no reason other than the electric cycles?

Electricity is 60hz here. 

If it's 50hz where you are, then maybe that's about proportional compared to that range. 

Half speed grinders here are generally around 1725 rpm or a little more. 

The speeds you mention would be fine. I wouldn't want a slow speed 6" grinder, it's just encouraging you to increase pressure to make up for wheel speed and there's some balance where that becomes a problem. On everything that has any kind of speed.


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## yan89 (10 Aug 2022)

Blackswanwood said:


> I have the T3 which I think has become the T4 in the current range.
> 
> Either of these will do what you are looking for
> 
> ...


I did that same course around 6 weeks ago, in the same shop, but with Nick Thompson who I think bought the shop from Chris, or did a joint venture, a few years ago. He still champions Chris’ work, so much so that I immediately bought his book when I’d left!


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## Jameshow (10 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Sorry to continue questioning, but when you say 'full speed' 6 inch grinder, is there a set speed it should (or shouldn't) exceed? I'd rather not drop £4-500 on a Tormek before I know i'll get benefit out of it, but there's grinders available new on a certain brazilian rainforest themed site for £40 (Einhell TH-BG 150 2980RPM), £55 (Clarke CBG6RP 2900RPM) or £83 (Record RPBG6 2850 RPM) which wouldn't seem like as much of an investment in the short term


Would not this titan be better vfm with 400w/ 8in diameter. 









Titan TTB521GRB 200mm Brushless Electric Bench Grinder 240V


Order online at Screwfix.com. Powerful, cast aluminium bench grinder with adjustable tool rests and eye shields for safety. Includes LED work light for precise work in tight areas. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 5 minutes.



www.screwfix.com


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## CMax (10 Aug 2022)

This might be an ignorant question, but I've never owned a grinder or polisher: can a grinder take a polishing wheel, so that all I'd need is one machine with a coarse grinding wheel on one side, and the appropriate stitched mop on the other?


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## yan89 (10 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Would not this titan be better vfm with 400w/ 8in diameter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Certainly looks it James - cracking suggestion! Thanks


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## raffo (11 Aug 2022)

CMax said:


> This might be an ignorant question, but I've never owned a grinder or polisher: can a grinder take a polishing wheel, so that all I'd need is one machine with a coarse grinding wheel on one side, and the appropriate stitched mop on the other?


Yes, that's what I do. Match the diameter of the wheel and the diameter of the arbor when getting the buffing wheel.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (11 Aug 2022)

CMax said:


> This might be an ignorant question, but I've never owned a grinder or polisher: can a grinder take a polishing wheel, so that all I'd need is one machine with a coarse grinding wheel on one side, and the appropriate stitched mop on the other?


Yes. I have two half-speed bench grinders. One is set up with CBN wheels, as mentioned earlier, and the other with two polishing mops, a soft and a hard. The latter are used for sharpening, ala David’s Unicorn method …







Regards from Perth

Derek


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## CMax (11 Aug 2022)

Thanks chaps!


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## yan89 (12 Aug 2022)

Out of interest, anyone got any recommendations for good tool rests and wheel dressing tools?


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## D_W (13 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Out of interest, anyone got any recommendations for good tool rests and wheel dressing tools?



Make a rest design out of plywood to start and see if you like how it operates, affix it to something other than the grinder and screw down the grinder. if you like the design you make, you can either face it with spring steel, or you can remake it. I wouldn't buy anything, especially not an aluminum rest or anything that isn't cast iron or steel.

For dressing wheels, the T shaped very cheap dresser is what you want.









Diamond Grinding Wheel Dresser Metal Grinder Stone Grinding Dressing Tool | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Diamond Grinding Wheel Dresser Metal Grinder Stone Grinding Dressing Tool at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





I've been using one of these for a long time and the diamonds have never really worn off of it. Probably 14 years old at this point and has worn several wheels to the point of replacement. they're just imported by the tens of thousands, so find a seller with the same thing and shop on price.


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## D_W (13 Aug 2022)

Note on that dresser, it's just a square tube with a layer of coarse diamonds. There's another type with what looks like a rectangle of who knows what stuck on the end - no clue if the latter is OK - I'd stick with something that looks exactly like above - it should outlast you and the T shape makes it easier to take light bits off of a wheel and keep the contour where you'd like it. 

There is a single point expensive type that a machinist or tool and die shop would point you to, but they are more suitable for heavy removal on a large wheel. Something you should never have to do.


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## yan89 (15 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> Note on that dresser, it's just a square tube with a layer of coarse diamonds. There's another type with what looks like a rectangle of who knows what stuck on the end - no clue if the latter is OK - I'd stick with something that looks exactly like above - it should outlast you and the T shape makes it easier to take light bits off of a wheel and keep the contour where you'd like it.
> 
> There is a single point expensive type that a machinist or tool and die shop would point you to, but they are more suitable for heavy removal on a large wheel. Something you should never have to do.


Thanks for the extra detail D_W

I was looking at CBN wheels that would fit the grinder linked above - this one - and can't seem to find any 200 x 20 x 16mm wheels 'on the shelf'. Axminster have wheels of similar sizes, but the closest seems to be 200 x 32mm. 

I did email a couple of firms who have replied asking if I wanted one made to order, and what grit/concentration/rim/grade I'm after.. 

I feel a bit of research coming on!


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## D_W (15 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Thanks for the extra detail D_W
> 
> I was looking at CBN wheels that would fit the grinder linked above - this one - and can't seem to find any 200 x 20 x 16mm wheels 'on the shelf'. Axminster have wheels of similar sizes, but the closest seems to be 200 x 32mm.
> 
> ...



They have to be very accurate or you just get a slight bounce of the chisel and cutting only on a portion of the wheel. this happens a lot on regular wheels not properly trued, but over time you can get them into true with use. 

For CBN, you can get an odd sized wheel if you can get a properly made bushing, or if you have a lathe, you can make a metallic or corian bushing. 

I think it's best to get a pre-made wheel made properly if possible, though.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (15 Aug 2022)

yan89 said:


> Out of interest, anyone got any recommendations for good tool rests and wheel dressing tools?


I have the Tormek tool rests, which is sold as the BGM-100 kit (see above). This is an amazing combination with the CBN wheels on an 8” bench grinder. It requires a little extra time for set up, but once dialed in (and mine has been adjusted just once in 7 years), it produces fool proof grinds at any angle you choose. It also uses any of the Tormek lathe chisel guides, and this increases its versatility. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## TRITON (22 Aug 2022)

Clearly this Chap has a spiritual home here  
I mean, to the point of drawing it all out on paper. Im not sure if thats good practice or just totally anal


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## Jacob (22 Aug 2022)

TRITON said:


> Clearly this Chap has a spiritual home here
> I mean, to the point of drawing it all out on paper. Im not sure if thats good practice or just totally anal



42 minutes! 42 minutes too long IMHO.


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## TRITON (22 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> 42 minutes! 42 minutes too long IMHO.


Too long for your attention span Jacob  

I'm sure there's a few 10 minute vids out there.


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## Jacob (22 Aug 2022)

TRITON said:


> Too long for your attention span Jacob
> 
> I'm sure there's a few 10 minute vids out there.


No just too much flattening nonsense. 
Shouldn't take 42 minutes to show how to sharpen a chisel, which normally takes about 30 seconds.
How on earth did they manage before the flattening of chisels was discovered?


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## D_W (22 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> No just too much flattening nonsense.
> Shouldn't take 42 minutes to show how to sharpen a chisel, which normally takes about 30 seconds.
> How on earth did they manage before the flattening of chisels was discovered?



This must've been before 1875, as even holtzapffel mentions keeping stones and tools flat for fine work. 

The three stone lapping method is probably new, but rubbing two stones together isn't, and someone with reasonable skills can manage two stones to keep both flat. 

labor intensive process isn't needed to keep things flat.


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## Jacob (22 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> This must've been before 1875, as even holtzapffel mentions keeping stones and tools flat for fine work.


Yes but not the modern sharpeners obsessive degree of flatness only possible with diamond stones. etc etc


D_W said:


> The three stone lapping method is probably new, but rubbing two stones together isn't, and someone with reasonable skills can manage two stones to keep both flat.


Somebody with reasonable skills can keep a stone flat enough, for life, merely by spreading the work load over the whole surface.
But a hollowed stone comes in handy for cambering blades anyway.
The three plate flattening method was developed by Whitworth in the 1830s and was key to precision engineering. Flatness (manufacturing) - Wikipedia
He lived and is buried just up the road from me (Darley Dale) but moved around and interestingly also worked for Holtzapffel & Co at one stage.
Luckily precision engineering is not needed for woodwork hand tools, but the idea seems to have deranged a whole generation of woodworkers and driven them insane!


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## D_W (22 Aug 2022)

This thing of hollowing stones came about with odate peddling a group of shaped diamond hones. I don't think it has any merit unless someone sets every plane blade to the same camber or whatever the case may be. A stone deliberately kept flat is better, with a stone having mild longitudinal sway but not lateral being next. 

I never looked up the three stone method origin, only remember someone claiming that no flattening of stones occurred before it came about, or that they were "truly flat" or some nonsense. 

the one true thing about modern diamond hones is that they can be useful for conditioning or keeping a stone flat on top of keeping the stone flat with technique and relatively flat diamond hones are about $20 now. 

i'm sure stones were trued plenty before 1830, but I'm not a big reader of historical stuff other than to see it incidentally after figuring something out. 

Having a stone hollow in the width is a bad idea because it will result in setting the back edge of a blade in a way that it won't touch the stone completely and you can work anything over a line or a corner to make up for lack of flatness (as in over the edge on the end with deference toward making sure the back of an iron contacts the edge), but it's not a better way to do things. It's a way of increasing the chance of denting an edge. 

There seems to be two extremes- either you need perfect, or nothing matters. What people really need is understanding the result and being lazy enough to get it as easily as possible without ever having "re-dos" or edge checking tests. There should be no need for edge checking tests very quickly after starting.


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## Jacob (22 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> This thing of hollowing stones came about with odate peddling a group of shaped diamond hones.........


The idea that a hollowed stone might produce a cambered edge was probably discovered in the stone age. Probably  mesolithic.


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## D_W (22 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> The idea that a hollowed stone might produce a cambered edge was probably discovered in the stone age. Probably  mesolithic.



The idea that it produces "a" cambered edge was probably immediate. The idea that it doesn't produce the one that you want in most cases probably followed immediately after that. 

it sounds good, so I guess it's good to say that it works well on a forum for that reason.


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## TRITON (23 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> No just too much flattening nonsense.
> Shouldn't take 42 minutes to show how to sharpen a chisel, which normally takes about 30 seconds.
> How on earth did they manage before the flattening of chisels was discovered?


And the rest of the vid ?, the tormek machine, wheel type, the renovation of a plane, back flattening was only a small section as was sharpening in general. It was a more using sharpening system, tools and implements. Interesting tips.
You'd know this if you'd watched it.

You should stay clear of this philosophy old chap


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2022)

TRITON said:


> And the rest of the vid ?, the tormek machine, wheel type, the renovation of a plane, back flattening was only a small section as was sharpening in general. It was a more using sharpening system, tools and implements. Interesting tips.
> You'd know this if you'd watched it.


Oh I missed all that! 
Mind you, like everybody else in the game I've been bombarded with info on sharpening for years and years. I've noted the widespread opinion on Tormeks that they are slow, so crossed them off my list a long time ago.
They haven't anything new to say. In fact most of what they say is rubbish and a waste of time.
PS just had a 3 minute flip through. Yes all rubbish. Zero mention of freehand.


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2022)

Norton India stones are confusing and their website is too.
I bought a new IB8 combination for reference. Compared to the others I'd class it as medium/coarse and hence ideal for beginners, as tangible results come up fast and easily. It's about the same as my first ever stone bought from Woolworths many years ago
I've also got a No "0" which much finer on the fine side and just about as fine as you need to go for ordinary purposes.
I've also got a tan coloured marked "Medium India" which is about the same as the fine on the No "0". Also have a tan coloured combi marked "fine" on one side which is about the same as the medium above. 
Don't need so many of course, so stick to three: No "0" for finest, IB8 for medium and my Woolworths stone for coarse as it's already conveniently hollowed and good for cambering edges.


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## D_W (23 Aug 2022)

different colors, different types of alumina - usually. Not sure that for basic high carbon steels we'd notice much difference unless they are a hard type intended to fracture.

Norton will probably never have much support for whetstones - the market for them is tiny and the cost is low.


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## TRITON (23 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Zero mention of freehand.


I expect they're looking for a consistent edge. We design and have machines that cut tooling, that make drills, or spindle moulder technology where the cutting blades/limiter's have to be made to a high degree of precision.

They certainly dont grind those freehand.
Some look to putting that precise an edge on an iron or a chisel blade as per anything else. Unfortunately you haven't seen any of the series following the build and restoration techniques, from a range of boat builders as well as input form other trades, ie pouring a big lead keel accurately, or the casting of the bronze structural parts.

Turning out to be a beautiful boat, all the skilled craftsmen and women working on it over the years, little back stories, human stuff and the like.. And in it you get the overall historic picture of how the structure of a large yacht fitted together.

Shame you have no interest in that


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2022)

I just think it's a great pity that simple traditional freehand sharpening has been written out of the record as though it never existed. You'd think trad boat builders would be into it, not least because it saves an enormous amount of time and is very practical, particularly on site away from a workshop, which boat builders tend to be.
I didn't know about their other stuff so you didn't need to make a snide remark about me not being interested!
I used to do a lot of sailing but not boat building. Read a lot though, and about the amazing skills whereby sail sailors could just about build a new ship if they were wrecked. No chisel flattening or tool polishing would be involved!


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## D_W (23 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> I just think it's a great pity that simple traditional freehand sharpening has been written out of the record as though it never existed.




this is a made up problem. There's plenty of practice and discussion of it, just not in groups that don't have serious hand tool woodworkers. I don't know of any carver who uses a jig...do you?


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## Jacob (23 Aug 2022)

I'll dig out my copy of "From Tree to Sea". Ted Frost, and see if anything is said about sharpening.


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## thetyreman (23 Aug 2022)

I primarily use freehand sharpening, it's not extinct at all, it's very fast and practical.


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> I'll dig out my copy of "From Tree to Sea". Ted Frost, and see if anything is said about sharpening.


Nothing at all about actual sharpening. Grinding gets mentioned apropos adzes.

Looked in Robt Wearing Essential WoodWorking, he mentions the eclipse jig as helpful for beginners and hints at chisel flattening.
That was 1988. Crazy sharpening hadn't quite begun but jigs were catching on and flattening had been mentioned! 
Maybe Wearing kicked it off?
Who came up with the terms "primary/secondary/micro bevel"?


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## mudman (24 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> different colors, different types of alumina - usually. Not sure that for basic high carbon steels we'd notice much difference unless they are a hard type intended to fracture.
> 
> Norton will probably never have much support for whetstones - the market for them is tiny and the cost is low.


Okay, been lurking for a long time now but your comment intrigued me. I've always thought of a whetstone as a sharpening stone (any) and so the main product that I know Norton for. Or do you mean something different by the term, something more specialised perhaps?


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## D_W (24 Aug 2022)

mudman said:


> Okay, been lurking for a long time now but your comment intrigued me. I've always thought of a whetstone as a sharpening stone (any) and so the main product that I know Norton for. Or do you mean something different by the term, something more specialised perhaps?



By whetstone, I mean sharpening stone. What I mean about Norton is how some of their responses either relayed to me or to retailers in terms of stones make it clear that doing anything special is sort of a distraction from their core business, which I believe is industrial and construction applications. 






Home Page EN US


As a brand of Saint-Gobain, a world leader in sustainable habitat, Norton offers the widest portfolio of grinding, cutting, blending, finishing and




www.nortonabrasives.com





This is the US site, but the English will probably be interpretable in the UK. Norton has a lot of specialty grinding wheels, belts, papers, diamond drill/coring, concrete construction, etc. All of those things are fairly high priced or are consumable and high volume. They still have a big variety of sharpening stones, but I get the sense that they're not a main product compared to the higher volume and probably higher profit items. 

I guess to put this in perspective, consider something even like a small part time knife maker. If a knife maker grinds 5-10 stainless knives a day, they'll go through about $25 in specialty belts. Or more if they are grinding really high vanadium steel. I think with what little grinding I do on a high speed 2x48 belt machine and I've probably put $300 of belts through my machines or a little more. Sounds wasteful, but they are consumable and cheap belts don't work the same way as modern belts - modern belts take over where wet wheels used to be needed, and red aluminum oxide paper (cheap) at high speed will just burn tools and knives in a hurry. 

In a fabrication shop or a manufacturer, deburring wheels and belts and such would add up quickly and the customer is a constant customer.


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## D_W (24 Aug 2022)

Jacob- mudman's comment encouraged me to look at norton's page. Norton in the US is obviously known for the oilstones, and for hobby woodwork, they have a set of "normal" softer waterstones.

They have a tan combination stone of alumina and they grit rate the tan side at 1000 and refer to it as slightly softer, and designed to be used with water.

I wonder if yours is something like that.

I've had sharpening stone lots - this may offend some others - where I've gotten so many 2x6 and 2x8 stones with the intention to get an arkansas slip, etc, because the whole lot will sell cheaper than the slip would itself. the only solution with such large lots - because the bench stones really aren't worth anything individually, is pick out the unique stuff and send the rest to to the dump. If they were a constant thickness, one could probably practice buttering bricks with them. I've never kept any of the tan ones to my knowledge, but could be wrong.






Combination Grit Waterstone


For fast sharpening and fine finishes on planes and straight chisels, chose the Norton Combination Grit Waterstone. These dual-grit sided synthetic stones




www.nortonabrasives.com


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## D_W (24 Aug 2022)

More fodder for the curious:



https://www.nortonabrasives.com/sga-common/files/document/catalog-nortonindustrial-7362-lr-bookmarked.pdf



To get an idea of the size of their offering spatially, you can download that catalog and scroll and scroll and scroll until you finally get to bench stones at page 220.

I noticed in their sears-like "good, better, best" rating tiers, they have translucent arkansas stones listed as "better".

!!!

I've never seen their "best" offering. Apparently, they are offering what look like spyderco-ish ceramic stones called "ascent", which is news to me. No clue who deals in that stuff over here, but it's probably on amazon or some other similar thing were some dodo can buy a wholesale lot, send it to amazon and then have amazon do the work selling it. (I found them online - they're expensive).


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## D_W (24 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> "primary/secondary/micro bevel"?



Does the term matter, or does it make it somehow different than what holtzapffel discussed accurately in their publications 150 years ago?

I can't find my hasluck carving book, but it's pragmatic. It probalby describes honing and grinding as separate operations with honing at a steeper angle - just like holtzapffel and anyone else actually doing fine work and not just rubbing a blade on a coarse stone at a job site.









Working with Hand Tools


The classic all-in-one guide to woodworking with hand tools including hundreds of projects and thousands of illustrations.Whether you’re a beginner with an idea in mind—but not a clue where to start—or an old pro with years of experience, you want to ensure your project comes out right. From...



www.google.com





Here's another hasluck publication online - the first one that I can find that you can read it.

In the brief entry about sharpening, it states that the tool bevels are shown at one angle to avoid confusion, but then says - the grinding and honing should be done at two different angles and that the honed bevel should be kept small vs. the grinding bevel to avoid introducing the final bevel as a source of increased force if it grows large. As in, wedging force or blunting. And concludes that it is desirable to grind a tool often (to keep the secondary bevel small).

The pages aren't numbered that I see - this discussion happens around figure 130 in the book.


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> ........
> 
> In the brief entry about sharpening, it states that the tool bevels are shown at one angle to avoid confusion, but then says - the grinding and honing should be done at two different angles and that the honed bevel should be kept small vs. the grinding bevel to avoid introducing the final bevel as a source of increased force if it grows large. As in, wedging force or blunting. And concludes that it is desirable to grind a tool often (to keep the secondary bevel small).


That is the standard general advice for the beginner from all the old books and a good starting point.
But you soon find that chisels don't need grinding if you keep them honed a little and often freehand, and neither do thin Stanley Bailey plane blades - in fact that is the nearly the whole point of their design; to make a plane with an easily sharpenable blade which won't need grinding.
Non of the old books go in for the modern obsessive manner of flattening, beyond the need to remove the burr and flattening a bit behind the edge.


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## D_W (24 Aug 2022)

An even more humorous discussion follows around figure 138 or so, and that is to do accurate grinding that is one facet (not convex, not rounded) so as not to lose efficiency, start off with a relatively blunt honing angle above the grind and then end up having to regrind too soon. At the very beginning of that, the text refers to poor grinding as encouraging things that increase effort of the tool user significantly. 

I have literally droned on about exactly the same thing here over and over - it takes no more time to sharpen accurately and consider effort than it does to not do it, and anyone that is working a significant amount of wood by hand will get awfully precise about this because they will be able to do it as a matter of routine - good sharpening becomes nothing more than exercise, and the better the grind (off of a machine if it's really going to be accurate in any short period of time), the more time and effort saved both in honing and using the tools. 

I know of two people who have done a lot of hand work professionally and both are pretty specific about how they sharpen things. Not specific like machine accuracy, but specific about both edge condition and prevention of damage and doing the job accurately. I don't know if they actually know the angle they're sharpening at - it doesn't matter because you can discern that without knowing it. 

Hasluck does go on after this to completely fail to understand the purpose of the cap iron and to boast of the rigidity of the parallel iron, which is probably less a product of rigidity and more a product of industrial grinding or rolling blades to a constant thickness. 

But the grinding and sharpening discussion is dead on. If one grinds by hand, they will have to do it more often unless they are willing to do it to a very shallow angle to make up for lack of flatness, and then hand grinding at such a shallow angle is awkward. BTDT as I have to constantly grind bevels on new tools and have no interest in running everything over a wheel grinder back and forth for 15 minutes to set a new bevel. But once a tool is in use, the hollow grind is dominant over pretty much anything else. 

what's funny is of all of the so-called experts on what needs to be done or not done, I haven't seen anyone other than me talk about what accurate grinding does for edge life from honing, and how pointless a convex bevel is due to the quality problems that come along with it and the work after it. 

One of the professional users mentioned above does only hand grind nearly perfectly flat bevels -that's his choice - as part of his honing process, but I think the reason he does that is due to preference to use a chisel bevel down a lot (professionally) in carving and shaping operations. 

Oh, and haslucks entry at the same time makes a point of not spoiling the cutting edge by rounding the back of a tool, and that not keeping the backs flat creates additional labor, not less. 

Once again, if you actually use hand tools a lot, and not just intermittently, you realize this quickly. Hasluck definitely has literature on carving, which makes it even faster to notice, but it exists everywhere. He even goes further to say something else I've droned on about- that poor creation of cutting angles leads to more sensitivity to wear - sending you back to the stones sooner than you would have gone with better accuracy - all the while robbing the workman of effort while the tool is in use. 

It's about time I found a discussion of this somewhere. 

I do have a good test for someone to perform, and partly where I came across understanding the need for accuracy - freehand hone an iron, then carefully grind an iron with a shallow grinding angle and then hone something like a 33 degree final bevel on the iron with a very fine stone (or oxide). Then plane with both setups in a single piece of wood and see how much longer the precisely sharpened iron planes. It will be drastic. That doesn't mean that you can't get the same edge life freehand, it just means that you have to be able to separate grinding and honing so as not to have the main bevel of the tool interfering with accurately finishing the edge. 

From the text - "the wedge like form of a tool edge".... (formed by the final secondary bevel, that's covered earlier) .... should be kept as wedge-like for as long as possible before the honed edge becomes obtuse..."the grinding of the hollow facet being regarded as of the greatest importance"

Of course, with the discussion of the secondary angle becoming more obtuse, hasluck is assuming that you are grinding one angle shallower and then honing freehand to finish the edge.


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## D_W (24 Aug 2022)

the above discussion is exactly what I drone on about. 

Not sure how the function of the cap iron was lost between the 1875 draft of holtzapffel and this text, but this text

Hasluck goes on to describe the economy of having accurately sharpened saws later. I would imagine that if I mention sharpening a rip saw at least once a project, not just when it's "dull", but as soon as it doesn't regulate itself in the cut without feeling the need to apply any extra force, it sounds odd given the large following of "send the saw to someone to be sharpened". 

Hasluck refers to using well sharpened saws as being two hours ahead for the week at the jobsite. 

All of this kind of stuff is what keeps people from actually doing much work by hand - it's rarely discussed, but it turns accurate hand work from seeming like a mountain into just intuitive exercise. Accurate as in being able to do rough work to at least match basic machines in accuracy, and in some cases better them. You can certainly learn to rip wood with less trouble to remove on the edges than you'd have from a cheap contractor's table saw where there's the odd bind here and there leaving a deep swirl in whatever you're cutting. Accurate hand ripping, which becomes routine, requires nothing more than removing any saw marks with a jointing plane and feeling for square at the same time - the plane will communicate with some experience whether or not the cut is out of square.


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## mudman (24 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> By whetstone, I mean sharpening stone. What I mean about Norton is how some of their responses either relayed to me or to retailers in terms of stones make it clear that doing anything special is sort of a distraction from their core business, which I believe is industrial and construction applications.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks D_W, that does make sense to me. I guess I was guilty of not considering the wider context of the supplier's business.
And your subsequent posts are very interesting. Picking up woodworking again after a fairly long lay off so hopefully will be interecting a bit more here again.


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## D_W (24 Aug 2022)

mudman said:


> Thanks D_W, that does make sense to me. I guess I was guilty of not considering the wider context of the supplier's business.
> And your subsequent posts are very interesting. Picking up woodworking again after a fairly long lay off so hopefully will be interecting a bit more here again.



sure -I was aware of the norton company size more or less because I had the same thought. In he past, Norton mentioned that their exclusive access to the pike washita wasn't really worth their time. and I kind of thought "what? you're the only company with access to the mine that has the good material in it and you sell sharpening stones and we know the ground stock is huge clear rock that can just be cut into whetstones, and it's not worth your time?"

And the answer was kind of yes, it wasn't worth their time. It's cyclical and there isn't enough demand to do it full time and opening and closing the mind and then shipping the stones to the N.E. USA to be processed just wasn't worth it. Then, I went out to look at their catalog and it was one of those moments where you just say "oh. I get it".


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## Jacob (24 Aug 2022)

mudman said:


> Okay, been lurking for a long time now but your comment intrigued me. I've always thought of a whetstone as a sharpening stone (any) and so the main product that I know Norton for. Or do you mean something different by the term, something more specialised perhaps?


D_W may have been thinking of Norton Motorbikes. Norton Abrasives are probably the world's biggest supplier of whetstones, of all shapes and sizes.
n.b. "whetting" means sharpening, nothing to do with water unless you are wet whetting of course!

Difficult to pick though D_Ws long rambles but:



> They have a tan combination stone of alumina and they grit rate the tan side at 1000 and refer to it as slightly softer, and designed to be used with water.
> 
> I wonder if yours is something like that.


No mine are all oil stones. Colour doesn't seem to relate to grit size either. Both orange and tan come as fine or medium. Coarse is always grey/black. Their grades coarse/medium/fine are all anyone needs, if they are consistent, whatever the colour.
Norton have cottoned on to the relatively recent fashion for waterstones - crazy sharpening gets everywhere! I guess they have to bow to fashion to some extent.
Edit: This link doesn't work unless you defeat the the rude word filter and replace "rubbish" with "cr ap" without a space.  https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/water-stones-are-rubbish/


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## D_W (24 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> I think D_W may have been thinking of Norton Motorbikes. Norton Abrasives are probably the world's biggest supplier of whetstones in all shapes and sizes.



uh, no. only if you literally didn't read anything that I wrote above. 

I know the discussion of sharpening and grinding efficiency from an economic standpoint is above most peoples' heads, and another reason that I usually chuckle at the expense of people when "oh, the convex bevel is as good as anything, sellers really knows what he's talking about" comes up. 

Well, if you have limited hand tool use among a lot of power tool use, it makes little difference. About as much as half hearted whetstone making matters for Norton. 

Norton's released ceramic whetstones in 8x2 and 8x3 sizes, the latter listed from $139-$159 here. I don't think they'll have much luck with them, and they probably won't know why - and probably won't care.


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## mudman (25 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> D_W may have been thinking of Norton Motorbikes. Norton Abrasives are probably the world's biggest supplier of whetstones, of all shapes and sizes.
> n.b. "whetting" means sharpening, nothing to do with water unless you are wet whetting of course!
> 
> Difficult to pick though D_Ws long rambles but:
> ...


Well yes, that is what prompted my question. What I think you've missed though is that D_W was saying that in the context of their complete product catalogue, it is small beer to the company.

n.b. I know what whetting means, I said so in the comment you quoted and D_W also said as much in his earlier reply.

n.b.2 Waterstones aren't a recent craze. They have been a traditional sharpening method in Japan (hence Japanese waterstones) for a very long time. Perhaps you refer to they only being introduced into the West in recent decades. BTW, how long do you have to wait for it to become 'established' rather than 'recent'? However, I guess that Norton have realised that people like using waterstones and have decided to enter the market. Nothing crazy about it, just a different medium available that has the ability to remove small bits of metal from a blade.

n.b.3 Your link doesn't work.


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2022)

mudman said:


> ...
> 
> n.b.2 Waterstones aren't a recent craze. ....


They are here and by all accounts very problematic compared to oil stones. One problem they have attempted to mitigate is a very expensive additive which makes water work more like, guess what, oil! It inhibits rust apparently.


mudman said:


> n.b.3 Your link doesn't work.


Thanks for the link comment. Defeated by the rude word filter - see edit above.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Aug 2022)

They are here and by all accounts very problematic compared to oil stones...

By all the accounts that agree with your opinions on something you know nothing about.


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> They are here and by all accounts very problematic compared to oil stones...
> 
> By all the accounts that agree with your opinions on something you know nothing about.


I do know what I've read about them!
The first problem is simply the huge array of choices Tools - Sharpening - Japanese Waterstones - Page 1 - Workshop Heaven followed by the even bigger array of bits of kit
In the good old days there was only coarse/medium/fine oil stone, natural or more often man-made, in a wooden box, and sharpening wasn't a problem for anybody.


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## Phil Pascoe (25 Aug 2022)

I've read oilstones are garbage. It must be true, because I've read it.


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## D_W (25 Aug 2022)

By all accounts? Strange language. I wonder how long continental European craftsmen have been using Belgian hones with water.. same with slates like the water of ayr..

And the Japanese hones mentioned above, along with sandstones that were used throughout Europe.


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've read oilstones are garbage. It must be true, because I've read it.


Where did you read that?


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## mudman (25 Aug 2022)

I'd be interested in what you might have read. A quick Google reveals very few, mostly subjective, negative opinions. The link you gave above is another subjective opinion. They don't work for him, he doesn't like them, fair enough, they don't suit his way of working, doesn't mean they're rubbish.


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## mudman (25 Aug 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've read oilstones are garbage. It must be true, because I've read it.


Yes, lots of accounts of problems. They have a propensity to dish across the width and then are a pipper to flatten.


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2022)

mudman said:


> I'd be interested in what you might have read. A quick Google reveals very few, mostly subjective, negative opinions. The link you gave above is another subjective opinion. They don't work for him, he doesn't like them, fair enough, they don't suit his way of working, doesn't mean they're rubbish.


In general that they are expensive, wear out fast, need flattening with another stone, need water which is messy, and water causes rust if not dried quickly.
Some of them are only a bit more expensive than oil stones but the other problems remain.
They seem to suit knife sharpeners which makes sense as water and food preparation go together and oil would be inconvenient. I think the fashion has spilled over from knife sharpening - they tend to be even more obsessive than woodwork sharpening enthusiasts!


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2022)

mudman said:


> Yes, lots of accounts of problems. They have a propensity to dish across the width and then are a pipper to flatten.


Never need flattening if you use them properly. I've only done it once (in 50+ years of woodworking) just by way of experiment. Needn't have bothered.
You keep them flat by spreading the work load over the whole surface. A little bit of dishing is no problem anyway, except for jig users - who must have a flat surface - which is where all the modern sharpening problems seem to begin
Water of Ayr stone is interesting Scottish Stones seems to be another knife/razor sharpener. There a lots of lesser known stones used, including water stones, but the trad oil stone is the most common by far.


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## D_W (25 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Never need flattening if you use them properly. I've only done it once (in 50+ years of woodworking) just by way of experiment. Needn't have bothered.
> You keep them flat by spreading the work load over the whole surface. A little bit of dishing is no problem anyway, except for jig users - who must have a flat surface - which is where all the modern sharpening problems seem to begin
> Water of Ayr stone is interesting Scottish Stones seems to be another knife/razor sharpener. There a lots of lesser known stones used, including water stones, but the trad oil stone is the most common by far.



The Oilstone is only common in the last 150. Before that, the only preferred Oilstone was the Turkish. 

Charns and idwals were around, but they can be agonizingly slow. 

The Belgian hone was extremely common and usually used with water. By carpenters. So were the slates common in England. 

I used waterstones for quite some time and never needed anti-rust anything, and other than the intentionally soft stones, none were more messy than Oilstones. The most messy stone I can think of is a carborundum Corp medium or fine silicon carbide bench stone. They shed little grit everywhere and it's stuck to you and everything else with oil.


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> ..................none were more messy than Oilstones. The most messy stone I can think of is a carborundum Corp medium or fine silicon carbide bench stone. They shed little grit everywhere and it's stuck to you and everything else with oil.


You need to have on hand a collection of oily rags. Oil is much easier to clean up than water.


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## D_W (25 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> You need to have on hand a collection of oily rags. Much easier to keep clean than water.



There's a clear case of lack of exposure here. 

waterstones range from the softest aoto, probably softer than a king stone to fused alumina with no pores - far harder than anything offered in oilstones. Though I've got a few oilstones of fused alumina (solid white) made for barbers from japan that say "barber oilstones". When the stone is more or less a pore-free ceramic slab, it doesn't matter what you use on it. 

The idea that choosing between waterstones or oilstones is some kind of critical thing is nonsense.


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> There's a clear case of lack of exposure here.
> 
> waterstones range from the softest aoto, probably softer than a king stone to fused alumina with no pores - far harder than anything offered in oilstones. Though I've got a few oilstones of fused alumina (solid white) made for barbers from japan that say "barber oilstones". When the stone is more or less a pore-free ceramic slab, it doesn't matter what you use on it.
> 
> The idea that choosing between waterstones or oilstones is some kind of critical thing is nonsense.


Water stones for kitchens, barbers etc (watery, sterile, culinary environment), oil stones for woodwork shops (dry environment, rust prone tools). Though you could use either of course, if you had to, but then have to put extra effort in to cleaning up.
PS kind of obvious really. I think water stones caught on because of the knife sharpening fraternity - even crazier than woodworkers! Also pleasingly Japanese and redolent of samurai swords - along with camellia oil, which also used to be really trendy!


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## D_W (25 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Waterstones for kitchens (watery environment), oil stones for woodwork shops (dry environment). Though you could use either of course, if you had to.



You haven't got a clue what you're talking about. The most popular device sold for knives is a tri hone - an oil bath, like Norton's IM 313. It's only been aimed at woodworkers recently. The stones kitted with them are designed entirely for sharpening knives intended to be steeled - not for tools.

The use of waterstones historically didn't involve a faucet, it involved a bucket. Cleaning the stone is as simple is dipping it in the bucket and wiping across it once. You managed to dance past the coticule thing again, an extremely common bench and site stone - often used with spit - graded for various uses by characteristics, from knives to tools to razors, with overlap. It's possible to use oil on them since they're generally pore-free, but far more common to use water or spit.

it doesn't do anyone any good when you make absolute statements and then claim experience - people just getting into the hobby may believe you until they've been around here for a little while.

Information about stones is publicly available now, and it was publicly available 150-200 years ago in holtzapffel's publications, both with types of stones/lubricant and their use.


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## D_W (25 Aug 2022)

By sold for knives, I mean sold for actual kitchens with serious home chefs or commercial kitchens/restaurants, not some thing that looks like a grasshopper with tiny finger stones sold through ebay videos and social media.


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## Hornbeam (25 Aug 2022)

These discussions always seem to get really contentious. I think this is because people tend to spout off a load of rubbish about things they know very little about. Over the last 40 years I have used water stones and oil stones, wet grinders and dry grinders. I have found what works for me and I will stick with it. Maybe other systems such as diamond plates, scary sharp etc are better but that is a bit subjective.
Waterstones and wet grinding works for me, I am not able to comment on other systems


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## D_W (25 Aug 2022)

I think they start to get contentious when absolutes are described. I've only been woodworking for about 16 or 17 years now, but I have a bit of an affinity for sharpening things and have had about 400-500 sharpening stones over that period. I keep a bunch for novelty, and it has nothing to do with actual woodworking, it's a side hobby. 

It really makes no difference what the stones are or what the lubricant is. Sharpening is about the same with everything, and there just aren't many absolutes until you get down to talking about what abrasives are in the stones, how they're held, what size and how hard the particles are. The lubricant is chosen not based on what's being sharpened, but rather what works better on the stone. Stones that work reasonably well with both end up being used with both...

....which horrifies forum experts 75 years later when they find something like a belgian hone that's "been abused and misused by being exposed to oil". 

In your case, you get to use what you prefer. If you weren't able to use what you prefer, I'd bet you'd do just as well with anything else, as long as the method wasn't so slow that it got in the way of finishing the job of sharpening.


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## Jameshow (25 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> No just too much flattening nonsense.
> Shouldn't take 42 minutes to show how to sharpen a chisel, which normally takes about 30 seconds.
> How on earth did they manage before the flattening of chisels was discovered?


5 year apprenticeship..... 

I'm joking but that's how you learnt! 

The idea of a hobby apart from work is a relatively recent invention I'd think?


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## Jameshow (25 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> I just think it's a great pity that simple traditional freehand sharpening has been written out of the record as though it never existed. You'd think trad boat builders would be into it, not least because it saves an enormous amount of time and is very practical, particularly on site away from a workshop, which boat builders tend to be.
> I didn't know about their other stuff so you didn't need to make a snide remark about me not being interested!
> I used to do a lot of sailing but not boat building. Read a lot though, and about the amazing skills whereby sail sailors could just about build a new ship if they were wrecked. No chisel flattening or tool polishing would be involved!


No they just use a belt sander!!


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## D_W (25 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> 5 year apprenticeship.....
> 
> I'm joking but that's how you learnt!
> 
> The idea of a hobby apart from work is a relatively recent invention I'd think?



In the US, it seems for the average population to be somewhere around 100 years old. 

In the case of something like this (sharpening topic), you can talk to someone who learned from a master and was given one option, or maybe two, or you can talk to a free spending hobbyist (like me) who has had at least 400 sharpening stone and has some fascination with them - but no delusion about the outcomes really being that much different from any of them, and get a pretty accurate answer. 

Along with relevant advice of "it doesn't matter that much". It can start to matter if you get into really bizarre steels, or steels with a significant amount of vanadium, but those aren't that useful for "cold work". 

that leads to nod-off discussions like, the difference between 10V and V11 steels. Because boy are they not at all alike.


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## Jacob (25 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> 5 year apprenticeship.....
> 
> I'm joking but that's how you learnt!


Most people learnt a school.


Jameshow said:


> The idea of a hobby apart from work is a relatively recent invention I'd think?


No it's ancient. 
The Woodworker Magazine started 1901
Big boom after WW2 I think. Remember Barry Bucknell?
This is interesting:
_"Joseph Moxon’s book Mechanick Exercises is the grandfather of all modern DIY manuals."_ from A brief history of DIY, from the shed to the maker movement | Science Museum


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## D_W (25 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Most people learnt a school.
> 
> No it's ancient.
> The Woodworker Magazine started 1901
> ...



DIY and hobby woodworking are drastically different things. 

125 years ago here, a farmer would do the building themselves - outbuildings and house. that's not a hobby, but it's DIY.


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## Jameshow (25 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Most people learnt a school.
> 
> No it's ancient.
> The Woodworker Magazine started 1901
> ...


I was thinking that's relatively recent!


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## essexalan (26 Aug 2022)

Five years of woodwork at school and nobody taught us how to sharpen so it was blunt chisels and blunt plane irons. I learnt basic sharpening from my dad and the bloke next door. Fast forward to the 80's and the edge you could get with a waterstone was a revelation and other than an upgrade of the stones used I have never looked back. Grind with a ProEdge and finish with a sequence of stones, quick strop with 1 micron diamond loaded leather or hard balsa, job done. The more refined the edge the longer it lasts. Modern plane irons get a jig but I touch the edge up freehand or use a spare blade, older irons and chisels get ground square and then finished freehand. Carving tools and waterstones don't get along well IMO so man made oilstones followed by naturals like a Washita and a good stropping works for me. 
Didn't the old timers recommend running the edge through a piece of hardwood endgrain to "remove" the burr?


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## Jacob (26 Aug 2022)

essexalan said:


> Five years of woodwork at school and nobody taught us how to sharpen so it was blunt chisels and blunt plane irons.


Rather surprising! It's not rocket science surely someone in the class could have sussed it out in 5 years?


essexalan said:


> ......Carving tools and waterstones don't get along well IMO


If it works for carving why not other edges too?


essexalan said:


> so man made oilstones followed by naturals like a Washita and a good stropping works for me.
> Didn't the old timers recommend running the edge through a piece of hardwood endgrain to "remove" the burr?


Yes have heard that, but there's loads of theories going around as we know!


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## Jacob (26 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I was thinking that's relatively recent!


_"Joseph Moxon’s book Mechanick Exercises is the grandfather of all modern DIY manuals.
Published in 1683–5,"_
In fact taking more time and effort into making things than functionally required goes back to the stone age.


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## essexalan (26 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Rather surprising! It's not rocket science surely someone in the class could have sussed it out in 5 years?
> 
> If it works for carving why not other edges too?
> 
> Yes have heard that, but there's loads of theories going around as we know!


Sharpening stones were kept in a locked glass top case and only teacher was allowed to use them. Don't know why but theory was taught not the practice. Certainly not rocket science and launching rockets has evolved over centuries as well. He kept his posh Stanley and Norris planes locked up as well.
Try sharpening something like a narrow v-tool on a waterstone and you will soon find out. No problems with the straight bevels on plane irons and chisels. Quite sure that the experts can do it but not me. 
Wasn't a theory it was a practice recommended by many old timers. Never tried it myself because I was taught to abrade the burr away gently rather than ripping it off.


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## Jacob (26 Aug 2022)

essexalan said:


> Sharpening stones were kept in a locked glass top case and only teacher was allowed to use them. Don't know why but theory was taught not the practice. Certainly not rocket science and launching rockets has evolved over centuries as well. He kept his posh Stanley and Norris planes locked up as well.
> .............


Much the same for me except we only did one year of woodwork.
Years later got drawn in to trying a jig as it seemed sort of obvious. They were a bit of a novelty back then.
Eventually I got a bit exasperated by fiddling with jigs and made an effort to get back to basics. A sudden moment of truth! Never regretted it - simple, fast, cheap, effective, etc etc.


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## essexalan (26 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Much the same for me except we only did one year of woodwork.
> Years later got drawn in to trying a jig as it seemed sort of obvious. They were a bit of a novelty back then.
> Eventually I got a bit exasperated by fiddling with jigs and made an effort to get back to basics. A sudden moment of truth! Never regretted it - simple, fast, cheap, effective, etc etc.


Ours was mixed in with metalwork as well. 
Nothing wrong with jigs but rumbling them around on diamond plates or oilstones is not my idea of fun. Once you have found out what sharp really is then you can experiment if you want to. What I have now works for me so no need to change very little wear on my Sigma stones so they will see me out and they handle any steel I throw at them. Cheap, effective and fast enough but then I am not in a hurry.


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## Tony Zaffuto (26 Aug 2022)

Absolutely love these sharpening threads-if anything, they teach us there are many ways to achieve our goals, with none right and none wrong.

As I posted long ago in this thread, my sharpening began on a powered belt sander, with rounded bevels. Next (weeks/months/maybe years?) I began to refine edges on a carborundum stone. That served me well, until decades later, when I started to read woodworking mags that implied I was doing it wrong. So, backwards I trodded into a few jigs, stones and such. Today, it is freehand, with an occasional reshape on powered CBN. Stones are natural oil or Spyderco’s, really whichever is closest. My edges work for me and the species of wood I work with (Cherry or white oak).

So, there it is and I guess I’ll never make the cover of American Woodworker or have followers on YouTube, but so what?


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## Stuart Moffat (26 Aug 2022)

As a boy in Junior school me and mates would sit in the playground and sharpen out penknives on paving slabs. We all had very sharp penknives! imagine that in school today!


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## CMax (26 Aug 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> As a boy in Junior school me and mates would sit in the playground and sharpen out penknives on paving slabs. We all had very sharp penknives! imagine that in school today!


Many school kids in London have knives these days. Don't know their sharpening methods, though.


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> As a boy in Junior school me and mates would sit in the playground and sharpen out penknives on paving slabs. We all had very sharp penknives! imagine that in school today!



pocket knives weren't uncommon when I was a kid in school early on, either. I don't remember anyone having them sharp, but stuff like swiss army knives and such were sort of toys. 

I recall a much older aunt talking about going to school in the 40s or 50s and how at some point, they stopped allowing kids to bring guns to rural schools in the US. 

If you're wondering what the kids were doing with guns......

..........they were taking them to school to trade (think hunting rifles and shotguns), sometimes trading with teachers. 

By the 90s, the schools took liberties breaking into students cars and doing random searches at any time. But guess what they were really looking for...
.......kids who brought cigarettes onto school property, even in a car. Automatic suspension. Do recall one kid getting "caught" with some restaurant prep knife in his car trunk - which he probably only had because he'd lifted it from his workplace. Not the kind of kid to ever be involved in offensive physical altercations, but suspended nonetheless in the first instance I ever saw of a "zero tolerance" rule at school in the 90s.


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> _"Joseph Moxon’s book Mechanick Exercises is the grandfather of all modern DIY manuals.
> Published in 1683–5,"_
> In fact taking more time and effort into making things than functionally required goes back to the stone age.



Except nobody is really doing that here. You're just busy with cob on your hands trying to build strawmen that will stand up.


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## Terry - Somerset (26 Aug 2022)

The goal is to sharpen tools such they can work the selected materials to the desired standard. It matters not at all which method is used to do the sharpening.

I would observe that:

those who make a living using sharp tools will gravitate towards those methods which minimise effort to maximise the time devoted to producing. They have a lifetime of work to "hone " their sharpening techniques. 
the hobbyist may never spend sufficient time on their hobby to optimise sharpening skills. They will adopt the approach which, for them, provides consistently sharp tools. This may reasonably involve jigs.
companies promote products to generate profits. Some will deliver functionality at a reasonable price,. Others promote no end of potions , abrasive variants, assorted jigs and machines in pursuit of sales and profit. If buyers feel it enhances their sharpening efforts - great! 
Interesting as the last 20 pages of posts are, dogmatic attachment to any one method is daft.


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## Tony Zaffuto (26 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> pocket knives weren't uncommon when I was a kid in school early on, either. I don't remember anyone having them sharp, but stuff like swiss army knives and such were sort of toys.
> 
> I recall a much older aunt talking about going to school in the 40s or 50s and how at some point, they stopped allowing kids to bring guns to rural schools in the US.
> 
> ...


Here in my part of Pennsyltucky (rural), in the late 60’s, one shop class at the public school built muzzleloaders (I went to a parochial school). pocketknives were common, as were shotguns or rimfire rifles in cars, for hunting after school.


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

Tony Zaffuto said:


> Here in my part of Pennsyltucky (rural), in the late 60’s, one shop class at the public school built muzzleloaders (I went to a parochial school). pocketknives were common, as were shotguns or rimfire rifles in cars, for hunting after school.



when my aunt relayed that, I guess her kids or maybe some friends - not sure which - were telling her of how much more strict schools were getting - this being long before me. Because she remembered well enough to repeat to me "we thought it was ridiculous. If the kids aren't allowed to bring guns to school and put them in their lockers, how are they going to trade them?"

I'm sure that a lot of the kids were also hunting right after school - my dad relayed the same. They'd get home, and if there were no obligations, something fresh for dinner was always nice as probably was the unwinding of walking the farm and getting outside. Not sure what happened - he mentioned shooting a lot of pheasants and rabbits, but that at some point, small game seemed to go scarce, and not with any change in hunting. In my area, it was probably a decline in deer hunters and changes in farming practices and machine efficiency eliminating cover and food (spilled seeds or cobs out of the combines).


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2022)

When I was eleven or twelve the village boys nearly all had their own shotguns. 1966ish.


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> When I was eleven or twelve the village boys nearly all had their own shotguns. 1966ish.



same here. single shot 20 gauge type shotguns or combination types (rimfire and small bore shotguns) were the fare of poor men and kids.....mostly to give the kids something to hunt with, preventing "borrowing" of better guns from the cabinet getting scuffed up on the woods, dropped and dragged over fences. 

I'm in line to inherit a few of the "dad's guns" that are well worn, but haven't got a clue what I'll do with them. Once the kids guns got in poor shape, they were relegated to barns or livestock buildings to be used to shoot rats or used as a "pig gun" to off a pig before processing. My father still has my father in law's single shot pig gun and despite cleaning and removing rust from the thing, it still has a little smell of pig poo if you clean your nasal palate and open the action and take a whiff. 

missing in this now is the idea that the guns could be stolen if they were just left out in the open in various buildings, especially when itinerant farm workers would help in various parts of the year. I've never heard of it occurring within the group of relatives. Now that people keep them inside and nice, it sounds like it's not uncommon- and probably drug related - not from dealers, but addicts who lose their sense.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2022)

Most of ours were 410s.


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## Jacob (26 Aug 2022)

Wen ar worra lad we all ad Thompson sub machine guns and and grenades. But kids today...


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> dogmatic attachment to any one method is daft.



it would be super dandy at some point if people started comparing the results of their sharpening rather than their methods. $20 for a hand scope is a bridge too far, I guess. 

I used to peruse a razor forum. I would antagonize (not intentionally) the group of method folks who had this that and the other comment about how poorly their straight razor would shave, hold up, or whatever else.

"I think you need a small hand held scope. I think you will find your problem as that you either have not honed all of the archaic damage from the edge of a razor last shaved with 50 years ago and then mishandled, or you'll find that you're sharpening lots of stuff most of the time, but getting an undamaged edge with the fine scratches reaching the edge on both sides after eliminating defects probably will fail to appear. When you make it appear, you'll be surprised how well the razor shaves"

"no way...you don't know what you're talking about.. I did a 5 stone progression with honing pyramids and there's no way I didn't reach the edge. The razor is defective, it's microchipping but it's possible that I overhoned it". 

After a few months, a couple of people bought hand held scopes and taking pictures took off. None of them had finished their razors to the edge for various reasons (if you think it's hard to hone tools properly for beginners, imagine picking up an old straight razor and trying to reshape it and then hone it to a finish to the very tip from end to end on both sides - where you can't use much physical pressure). 

Then it became standard to show results (pictures from a scope, and what magnification) and ask if they were good enough rather than ask about the method. 

I still don't think most people on those forums have a clue what overhoned means, but that hobby sort of blew up about the same time that hand tool woodworking did, and there's a lot less in earnest done on both at this point.


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## Jacob (26 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> it would be super dandy at some point if people started comparing the results of their sharpening rather than their methods.


We do it all the time by using the tools. Every time we sharpen we compare/contrast before and after, or compare different planes used on the same job or different jobs. In fact it's a continuous lifetime's study!


D_W said:


> .... I didn't reach the edge.


The one sure check of reaching the edge is feeling the burr - right across the blade.


D_W said:


> ....
> 
> I still don't think most people on those forums have a clue what overhoned means,


Er, true! What does overhoned mean, other than carrying on longer than you needed to?


D_W said:


> but that hobby sort of blew up about the same time that hand tool woodworking did,


Hand tool woodworking has been going strong for thousands of years. Hobby shaving is very new and very much a minority interest, except in Brazil!


D_W said:


> and there's a lot less in earnest done on both at this point.


True there aren't many earnest shavers in my experience.


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> We do it all the time by using the tools. Every time we sharpen we compare/contrast before and after, or compare different planes used on the same job or different jobs. In fact it's a continuous lifetime's study!
> 
> The one sure check of reaching the edge is feeling the burr - right across the blade.
> 
> ...



I'd guess the number of shavers was probably bigger than the number of hand tool woodworkers by a long shot. I don't know where they came from or why they wanted to use straight razors. 

Feeling a burr is only part of the confirmation that you reached the edge. There is some discretion in how big the burr needs to be so that you don't come up short when you don't want to and so that you don't just rely on raising a huge burr and waste time. You can create a pretty significant burr and feel it past the edge without the honing actually being done all the way to the edge. 

Overhoned is a shaving topic I'd only explain to someone actually shaving - it's not complicated, but it involves understanding context when the term was popular to explain why it makes no sense with a bunch of ultrafine modern abrasives.


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## Jacob (26 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> I'd guess the number of shavers was probably bigger than the number of hand tool woodworkers by a long shot. I don't know where they came from or why they wanted to use straight razors.


Sounds alarming! Have they surrounded the house? 
Non around here at all but I know dozens of hand tool woodworkers.


D_W said:


> Feeling a burr is only part of the confirmation that you reached the edge. There is some discretion in how big the burr needs to be


How big does the burr need to be?


D_W said:


> ...
> 
> Overhoned is a shaving topic I'd only explain to someone actually shaving


what, on zoom, skype or something?


D_W said:


> - it's not complicated, but it involves understanding context when the term was popular to explain why it makes no sense with a bunch of ultrafine modern abrasives.


A bit of a of cult secret?


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> How big does the burr need to be?
> 
> what, on zoom, skype or something?
> 
> A bit of a of cult secret?



The burr needs to be big enough so that the apex of the honed edge is finished and clear when you're done. It's easy to create a burr, hone through removing it and not remove the actual edge, or not remove damage in an edge. Both are kind of pointless. 

Overhoning is a simple term - I'll post something in the OT thread about it. The desire of the shaving forums because a few people answered the question before knowing what it actually was, was to create some convoluted answer that didn't make any sense but allowed someone an out to say "I think you overhoned the razor and the edge is fragile". 

With good steel, that doesn't actually happen. Sort of like the comment about waterstones, it's based on the mistake of deciding an answer must make sense with what's available in the last 40 years.


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## Phil Pascoe (26 Aug 2022)




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## WideningGyre (26 Aug 2022)




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## Jacob (26 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> ....
> 
> Overhoning is a simple term - ....


It's OK I googled it. I didn't think it would bring anything up - I know all about it now! 





Overhoning - Shave Library







shavelibrary.com




PS pages and pages of fascinating stuff. Belgian Hones - Shave Library


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## WideningGyre (26 Aug 2022)

Well, besides waffles Belgians are certainly know for their.... shaving. Cleanest shaved population of all modern Western democracies. That's saying something too.


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> It's OK I googled it. I didn't think it would bring anything up - I know all about it now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



good lord, the false definitions of it live on in a "wiki". I guess they don't want to answer why the truly fine natural stones (that were expensive) often advertised that they "would not overhone". 

The idea that a wire edge will somehow grow and grow in in some way that damages an edge is a little odd. I posted a picture in OT. the edge shown is off of the hone. on fine stone, there is no appreciable burr. 

I have belgian hones, of course. but only three at this point. There used to be a huge trade in them with a gaggle of mines selling stones near seams ( the ones good for razors ) to shavers and carpenters. the "blue stone" away from the seam has value for architectural use, and can also be a hone. The yellow by itself is unstable. 

there is one company now (ardennes) retailing hones and they're not that great compared to a lot of older hones, at least not what's retailed and they can be *really* expensive, like $350 for an 8x3 bench stone. there's nuance to using them that's beyond the scope of this forum - you can get a little more out of a stone than its coarseness would suggest on a razor with a light touch and experimenting - but the good ones are fine and no matter how you rub a razor on them, the razor is sharp. $100-$350 depending on size for an iffy outcome is not so great. you can buy pulled (kept in reserve) stones for what appears to be even more - maybe those are the ones that would measure up to better older hones. 

not a single one of them is as fine as micronized pigments that cost a few dollars and can be gotten from kremer pigments or any other art supply place that sells high quality pigments. 

The fact the definitions in that page still have legs is....it's just boggling.


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## D_W (26 Aug 2022)

WideningGyre said:


> Well, besides waffles Belgians are certainly know for their.... shaving. Cleanest shaved population of all modern Western democracies. That's saying something too.



I never knew that - kind of took a shine to the shaving thing, though, too, trying to figure out where the modern kitted up version didn't connect with the "my grandfather had one tube of fine honing paste and one strop and used it all his life" stories. 

Turn of the century catalogues, though, are loaded with the belgian coticule hones. As in, even the catalogues in the US - the stones were just rebadged/stamped by pike and carborundum corp, etc. The garnet particles in their stones are kind of round and relatively gentle on edges for their size - much different concept than just making a finer and finer (but sharp and pointy) abrasive.


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## WideningGyre (26 Aug 2022)

If garnet is so magical, then why not garnet sandpaper on glass? Or loose garnet?









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Garnet powder:









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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

For a minute there when it was all shotguns i thought we'd lost the topic for good 



D_W said:


> None of them had finished their razors to the edge for various reasons (if you think it's hard to hone tools properly for beginners, imagine picking up an old straight razor and trying to reshape it and then hone it to a finish to the very tip from end to end on both sides - where you can't use much physical pressure).



Exactly.
@Jacob lives for this! 
Waterstones produce a very fine edge because they are smoother ( less coarse ) and some of them are ridiculously fine. And now expensive.
Ive got waterstones, oil, lapping film ( very good ) diamond pastes, different strops, whetstone grinder.
I can get a usable edge with any of the above, but you cant get an edge good enough to shave your face with a coarse stone of any description.
My biggest sharpening triumph was reviving an ern ator ( circa 1918 ) with a shave ready edge. My first properly sharp edge from blunt. Imagine using a chisel that sharp


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## Blackswanwood (27 Aug 2022)

I wonder if Top Trumps have ever considered a set of sharpening cards


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

Im just amazed, post count now over 400 and not one member has been banned


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## Cooper (27 Aug 2022)

essexalan said:


> Five years of woodwork at school and nobody taught us how to sharpen


Back in the 70s & 80s when my job was called Head of Woodwork. I demonstrated how to sharpen chisels and plane irons but I must admit the kids didn't practice and that would have been the best way for them to learn. They did practice setting the planes however. The reason was that I had a technician, who did the rounds of the workshops each morning putting a perfect edge on all the chisels. If I let the kids have a go, chances were the edges would have been blunt for the next class. I also suspect I would have had to deal with a lot of cut fingers.
As it was, I had 40 years in the workshops without any serious accidents, which was always my first priority. You wouldn't believe the forms I'd have had to fill in!!


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## pe2dave (27 Aug 2022)

Stuart Moffat said:


> As a boy in Junior school me and mates would sit in the playground and sharpen out penknives on paving slabs. We all had very sharp penknives! imagine that in school today!


Gutting fish on a trawler, the nearest 'stone' was a one inch hawser. Put an edge on a knife. If worse, the 'whiffling stick' was used (a steel).


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## Jacob (27 Aug 2022)

baldkev said:


> ....... Imagine using a chisel that sharp


Yebbut imagine using a super sharp razor for woodwork!


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## Tony Zaffuto (27 Aug 2022)

We’ve all succumbed to being influenced by internet celebs, YouTubers, magazine personalities and worse, the vocal fanbois who worship those goomers. First symptom is continuing to speak of what the rabble put forth. Full infection is practicing it!


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## D_W (27 Aug 2022)

WideningGyre said:


> If garnet is so magical, then why not garnet sandpaper on glass? Or loose garnet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



not a huge fan of paper on glass - it doesn't lend itself to manipulation the same way as a stone surface. 

However, I'd never looked to see what's in garnet paper, so I went and looked. Almandine - close to the mohs hardness of coticules, but slightly higher. 

i'd guess that finding it in 5-10 micron size in a surface where it doesn't come loose is pretty difficult.


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## D_W (27 Aug 2022)

baldkev said:


> For a minute there when it was all shotguns i thought we'd lost the topic for good
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Imagine being able to use a chisel that *thin*. At 16-18 degrees....I didn't believe that it would be any different to hone a razor when starting, but it's definitely the case that preventing defects is a little harder in such a thin edge. But when the edge does give way just a little over time, the thin cross section still makes it so that it will catch a hair easily. 

I could get caught going on at length about razors and how wonderful the straight razor is vs. anything now because of the ability to set an edge that will stay the same 200-300 shaves in a row, and about its ability to prevent razor burn because it can be set so that it will catch a hair, but not the skin behind the pore that the hair props up. Effectively severing the hair and then sliding over the skin. 

But you can certainly make a razor sharp enough that it will cut both, and there's no real virtue to it. 

I have to be careful, though, or I'll bore everyone even more and some guy will add that definition to "overhoning". 

I have a picture of a razor that was used for almost a year. 





Compared to the one freshly honed:




There's just not much difference between being to the linen two times and 40 except the scratches suggest that at some point, dirt or something got on the linen. 

the scale of these pictures is 2 hundredths of an inch top to bottom. 

What I gather from this is that you could hone a lifetime with a razor and use a couple of hundredths of an inch off of the edge and never have a bad shave. 

compared to this - a disposable double edge razor blade will generally start denting on the first shave. They're softer. I get a chuckle out of the article format that comes out once every half decade or so: "scientists have determined what causes razors to dull, and it's not that they wear out". 

You don't say. 

I'd bet engineers and marketers at the razor companies figured this out a long time ago - that there's no great reward to making a razor blade a little harder - someone will break a few putting them in a razor, and the only ones who would ever think their razor got dull are the ones that allow dried soap to build up behind the edge. 

This is an astra razor blade after something like two or three shaves:


Still shaves OK here but is on the way down hill fast, and within a week for me it's time to change the blade. I have actually honed these (double edge) blades - but the core of the steel is too soft to hold up without its coating. and the coating hides the dullness of the edge a little bit by allowing the blade to slide across skin. 

...there, I just went on about razors a little bit...,nobody is going to remember anything I type here or in the overhone post, so I guess I'm just bored.


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## D_W (27 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yebbut imagine using a super sharp razor for woodwork!



Sharpen a chisel to 17 degrees, push it into something and let us know how it goes. 

razors get a treatment from the linen that's a whole lot like the unicorn profile on chisels. without that treatment from the linen, the edge can deflect a little bit and things go poorly from there. 

This is the modern forum honing thing - to fail to understand what's happening at the edge from the linen, skip it, sharpen finer and finer, and then just sharpen all the time. 

what I showed in pictures above - get one good linen and one fine hone - use the hone once a year, the linen once a week....it's too boring for people, I guess. To have a razor that is identical every single day and controllable for sharpness is pretty good, thought. Takes about 3 minutes to shave plus a little less than a minute on the leather, and 30 seconds of linen one day a week. 

This goes back to the scope.....it's a whole lot easier to know what you're getting at an edge, when it's a quality problem with the razor (which isn't uncommon - there's not much room for error in steel and heat treatment, unlike tools), and when you didn't do the job. 

Sort of like it would be smart for most people to use a $20 hand scope early on and find out what they're doing at the actual edge and then compare actual finish fineness with use, as well as find out what they're doing setting an edge up to stop damage from occurring. a long-time hand tool user years ago (like 150+) would've done these things learned over a very long time, but they can be gotten past quickly. they can't be seen with a loupe, though, and skipping doing this is false economy. Either the $20 part of the hour of time that it may take to look at a couple of dozen edges over an entire career or lifetime hobby.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Aug 2022)

pe2dave said:


> Gutting fish on a trawler, the nearest 'stone' was a one inch hawser. Put an edge on a knife. If worse, the 'whiffling stick' was used (a steel).


Probably why Opinel was the brand of choice for fishermen I knew. So soft you could sharpen them on anything harder than cheddar.


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yebbut imagine using a super sharp razor for woodwork!


Give it a try Jacob..... but clearly my point was that you can get a VERY sharp edge quite quickly if you want..... its just progress. In the late 1800s they probably just used slate ( maybe 10 to 12k grit from uk slate, 18kish from a thungarian ) now diamond pastes do easily 80k grit. For very fine work or paring, the sharper the chisels edge, the better, no?


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## thetyreman (27 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> Sharpen a chisel to 17 degrees, push it into something and let us know how it goes.


works well for pairing especially pine and endgrain.


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## Adam W. (27 Aug 2022)

baldkev said:


> Give it a try Jacob..... but clearly my point was that you can get a VERY sharp edge quite quickly if you want..... its just progress. In the late 1800s they probably just used slate ( maybe 10 to 12k grit from uk slate, 18kish from a thungarian ) now diamond pastes do easily 80k grit. For very fine work or paring, the sharper the chisels edge, the better, no?


I use slate, it works just fine.


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I use slate, it works just fine.


It definitely works and has done for probably hundreds of years.....

But that wasnt the point. The point was that if you want sharper, you can get it without much extra effort or expense.
These sharpening discussions are always the same because the 2 camps dont recognise each others position. On the one hand, sharpening is simple and can be done with any hone, be it carborundum, wetstone or even aluminium oxide. And whatever works for that person works.... so they aren't interested in changing.

On the other hand, people use newer kit, like lapping film, to achieve a sharper edge and so they put their points forward and the 2 sides clash.

If each simply stated how they do it and left it at that, we wouldnt have 17 pages of discussion on sharpening. Whoever reads it can choose their poison, but unfortunately it usually ends up with mud slinging and back biting.

The grown up thing to do would be acknowledge each others views are move on.
Edit to say, a couple of years back i read d_w's writing on the unicorn method and he starts by saying this isnt for everyone and that his research is aimied at giving a longer edge life etc, so it was actually a balanced piece of writing. ( or something on those lines )

But back to the arguing, maybe jacob can run us through sharpening his flint axe in the dark ages 
Love you jacob


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## Jacob (27 Aug 2022)

D_W said:


> .....
> 
> I could get caught going on at length.........


No, really? 



Phil Pascoe said:


> Probably why Opinel was the brand of choice for fishermen I knew. So soft you could sharpen them on anything harder than cheddar.


Is there a problem with having them easy to sharpen?
I've always had Opinels but I never knew they were "soft" in some mysterious way! 
They certainly work really well as a pocket knife. Would they work better if they were difficult to sharpen?


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

Maybe this thread should be locked and stickied to every forum subsection.... that way it'll act as a deterrant to further sharpening discussion  if nothing else it'll take a day or two to read it all 
Bingy man certainly got his moneys worth out of this one!!


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## Adam W. (27 Aug 2022)

@baldkev I'm happy with it and I can carve construction grade spruce just fine with a slate finish. Why would I want to try for sharper if what I've got works well?

I can't see the point of wasting all this time, effort and money, when the object is to chop wood with a fine finish and sharpen as quickly as possible to achieve an edge that lasts.


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## Phil Pascoe (27 Aug 2022)

I've had a few Opinels. Easy to sharpen, you haven't an opinel of keeping them sharp. Good for their intended use, they can be sharpened on just about anything.


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> @baldkev I'm happy with it and I can carve construction grade spruce just fine with a slate finish. Why would I want to try for sharper if what I've got works well?
> 
> I can't see the point of wasting all this time, effort and money, when the object is to chop wood with a fine finish and sharpen as quickly as possible to achieve an edge that lasts.


Exactly. Camp 1, which is fine. 
D_w's point is that his edge can last longer. As for money, lapping film is cheap. Time? Not really much extra, maybe 20 seconds with a buffing wheel.... Davids point to his lower angle was that you only regrind to the angle once, then its set and youd do as normal, but at the new lower angle and if you have a buffing wheel, great.

Before anyone gets all hot and bothered about my posts, I've read d_w's stuff and I havent changed my angle. I do use the buffing wheel now and its great. At some point I'll do a 25° bevel and see what happens, but the likelihood is i wont even notice, because im a site chippy, so edge life doesnt matter as much as if you were predominantly a hand tool user ( which again, d_w has made clear )


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## Jacob (27 Aug 2022)

baldkev said:


> ....
> 
> But back to the arguing, maybe jacob can run us through sharpening his flint axe in the dark ages......


No problemo. You either flake off the edge or rub it up and down on something a bit abrasive. Or both. Nothing has changed in the intervening 5000 years. 
I guess a sharp flint edge would need to be a bit more than 30º I've never thought about it.
What would the recommended primary, secondary, and tertiary micro bevels be for bronze?


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## Jacob (27 Aug 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I've had a few Opinels. Easy to sharpen, you haven't an opinel of keeping them sharp.


ho ho!


Phil Pascoe said:


> Good for their intended use, they can be sharpened on just about anything.


I use a steel if there's one handy. Or just a piece of steel such as the back of another knife (or fork, spoon, tent peg, etc)


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## Adam W. (27 Aug 2022)

baldkev said:


> Exactly. Camp 1, which is fine.
> D_w's point is that his edge can last longer. As for money, lapping film is cheap. Time? Not really much extra, maybe 20 seconds with a buffing wheel.... Davids point to his lower angle was that you only regrind to the angle once, then its set and youd do as normal, but at the new lower angle and if you have a buffing wheel, great.
> 
> Before anyone gets all hot and bothered about my posts, I've read d_w's stuff and I havent changed my angle. I do use the buffing wheel now and its great. At some point I'll do a 25° bevel and see what happens, but the likelihood is i wont even notice, because im a site chippy, so edge life doesnt matter as much as if you were predominantly a hand tool user ( which again, d_w has made clear )


Last longer than what? He's just a bloke with an opinion like everyone else, and I'm pretty sure he's not the all knowing expert on woodworking that he thinks he is.

You'd be better off making your own trials than relying on someone else's opinion.


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

Jacob said:


> What would the recommended primary, secondary, and tertiary micro bevels be for bronze?


Primary at jagged rock angle, secondary at more jagged rock angle and if you can fit a third bevel, you need seriously jagged rock angle


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## Jacob (27 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Last longer than what? He's just a bloke with an opinion like everyone else, and I'm pretty sure he's not the all knowing expert on woodworking that he thinks he is.


Yebbut what about his big magnifying glasses?


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Last longer than what? He's just a bloke with an opinion like everyone else, and I'm pretty sure he's not the all knowing expert on woodworking that he thinks he is.
> 
> You'd be better off making your own trials than relying on someone else's opinion.



Well, in the writing, he describes setting up a test using the same pieces of wood, with the blades sharpened in different ways for each plane for the test. He ( from memory) focussed on delivering the same pressure with each pass and counted how many strokes he got until the edge dulled.
Certainly it seemed well set out and he redid the tests to make sure he wasnt inadvertently engineering a result. To be fair, if you read it, it does sound very unbiased.

Im not claiming that d_w is any type of authority, just putting across in words the basis of his opinion.... and he clearly knows more about steel than you or i


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## Adam W. (27 Aug 2022)

I don't claim to know anything about steel, why would I, I'm a chippy? I do know about wood and I know when someone is spouting bull about being fabulous and all sorts of smashing with hand tools.

I read some blurb on lapping film. Here it is....

*"How to Use Lapping Film*
_First use a 600 grit diamond stone to remove any nicks, chips or imperfections from the blade. Then sharpen the edge as you normally would until you have a good edge at around 1200 grit. 
Put 3-4 drops of lubricant on the film making sure it is spread evenly across the film. I use  Krud Kutter as a lubricant but glass cleaner or any all-purpose cleaner works better than nothing. 
Next, using a back stroke as you would when stropping, take 50-75 strokes on each side of the blade. Continue until you have reached the desired level of sharpness for that grit. (The number of strokes will vary depending on the hardness of the knife and the angle you are using.)"_

From How to Use Lapping Film for Sharpening

That doesn't sound like a quick method of sharpening anything to me, but it does sound like being an obsessive sharpener and nothing else.

It reminds me of someone else on here.


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## Jacob (27 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> I don't claim to know anything about steel, why would I, I'm a chippy?
> 
> I read some blurb on lapping film. Here it is....
> 
> ...


Yep there's a lot of it about. It's a load of baloney.
What is lapping film exactly? No don't tell me I don't want to know!


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## Adam W. (27 Aug 2022)

Um, it's new and smashing and will make your life complete for only £150.00 per month.


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## baldkev (27 Aug 2022)

It a cheap way of getting razors properly sharp. If you wanted to get a sharper edge, you could buy a couple of the finer grits of paper to finish off your normal routine. Or if you dont, dont.

It goes back to post 415

No point discussing it any further


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## D_W (27 Aug 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Last longer than what? He's just a bloke with an opinion like everyone else, and I'm pretty sure he's not the all knowing expert on woodworking that he thinks he is.
> 
> You'd be better off making your own trials than relying on someone else's opinion.



I've had about enough of your trolling.


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## MikeK (27 Aug 2022)

Time, gentlemen.


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