# Chisel sharpening - do we have a beginner guide?



## Rorton (30 Dec 2020)

Been searching the forum this evening for sharpening guidance, lots of posts about sharpening, and opening a can of worms, but I couldn’t find any ‘starter’ basic info So sorry if I’m going over old ground, and if there is a guide to this please point me in the right direction. 

i have some inexpensive chisels which I need to get (and keep) sharp, and no idea where to start and what to buy

do I need a honing guide
how many different grades of stones do I need
is there a best practice etc. 

I don’t use the chisels much, so don’t want to spend big money on fancy guides and expensive plates, but would love to know where to start and what I should look at buying to keep them in usable order.


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## KT -andy (30 Dec 2020)

You tube has lots of info .
I made a couple of oak guides that fit over a belt sander to get the angles , then wet&dry stuck to a bit of marble to finish them off .


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## Rorton (30 Dec 2020)

I’ve been there too, just watching a video by rag n bone brown.

just wondering what I need to buy

i have a 400/2000 whetstone I use for kitchen knives, don’t know if that would be of any use

otherwise, do I need 300 then 600 then 1000 grit, is that enough?


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## D_W (30 Dec 2020)

buy some metal polish to go with your stone - you have all you need to sharpen chisels. 

If you need anything else and don't have a grinder, it would be a run of 80 grit paper to grind the bevel with. 

Nothing does a job on chisel tips as well as a buffer (nor does anything come remotely close to providing the same edge longevity), but that's perhaps a couple of months down the road after you get a feel for sharp.


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## Rorton (30 Dec 2020)

I have some autosol in my car cleaning box for exhaust tips 

so use that with the 400/2000 then?


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## Nigel Burden (30 Dec 2020)

I use a double sided diamond plate which is well worn in 250 and 600 grit, finishing with a natural stone that is very fine, I haven't a clue of the git as I bought it at a car boot sale, then strop on leather.

I only use my Eclipse guide if the bevel gets out off sorts, otherwise I just sharpen free hand. Narrow chisels are difficult to get square though, and don't fit in the guide that well.

Have a look at Paul Sellers or The English Woodworker.

Nigel.


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## Bm101 (30 Dec 2020)

Autosol and an off cut of mdf is used by many as a final hone. it works really well. Keep it simple at first and don't buy a load of gear. Eclipse style jigs work and are fairly cheap. crack on and dont get bogged down in online debate.


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## billw (30 Dec 2020)

*can opener*
*tin of worms*


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## Rorton (30 Dec 2020)

Thanks, the eclipse jigs are cheep enough so I can get one of those.
is the 400 / 2000 whetstone I have sufficient, do I need something in the middle like 1000?


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## D_W (30 Dec 2020)

no, you don't need a middle stone. You can get one if you want one, but you don't need to match prescriptive paint by number lists that other people put together (nor buy certain brands of stones). Understanding what metal to hone, what to not hone, etc, is far more valuable than the difference between any sharpening media.


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## Rorton (30 Dec 2020)

Ok great thank you, so I don’t use the autosol on the stones themselves, I use the whetstone as whetstone with water for the chisels and then use autosol on some Mdf as a final hone?


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## billw (30 Dec 2020)

Is there a right answer to this? Short term the answer is abrasives and a flat surface, whether that be an offcut of granite kitchen work surface or a floor tile.

You can achieve a great result using any method, especially if you can judge angles by eye. I can't, so the investment in the Veritas kit was worth it. I use waterstones. Are they good? yes.


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## Fitzroy (30 Dec 2020)

There are many ways to skin this cat, the one that is correct is the one you develop that works for you. 

For me, I:
- put a 25degree bevel on the chisel with a bench grinder.
- use wet and dry paper from screwfix on a marble tile as an abrasive. I use 320, 400, 600, 1200, 2000. Then autosol on a leather strop glued to a piece of mdf.
- flatten the back up to 2000 grit, aiming for a full side to side flat at the sharp end extending back 5mm ish. 
- use a honing guide to put a secondary bevel on at about 30degrees. 

Once I have the chisel working I will resharpen the edge just by hand/eye, until the bevel gets too out of shape and I pull the honing guide out again. 

I bought some cheap diamond stones but didn’t find they added anything beyond the wet and dry and they seemed to loose their cutting power after about 6 months. 

Cheers

Fitz.


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## Bm101 (30 Dec 2020)

Find one method then get good at it. As long as you are sharp enough to cut wood you are doing it right. You can grow skills as you go.


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## Rorton (30 Dec 2020)

thanks, Im getting caught up in different video on you tube saying you need a rough, medium then fine stone/plate, 400 - 2000 seemed a big jump with nothing in between, like going from 80 grit sandpaper to 320 grit while skipping other steps

if what I have it good enough then I’ll give it a go and see how I get on.


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## Awac (30 Dec 2020)

Read everything you can, buy books. You will never get the sharpness you want until you understand what is happening.

A good first book is_ "The Perfect Edge: The Ultimate Guide to Sharpening for Woodworkers"- Ron Hock _clearly explains everything for a start in sharpening. Clear big pictures.

Sharp. It becomes a sickness, be careful....__


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## JoeS (30 Dec 2020)

Don’t buy Ron Hock’s book. You’ll become obsessed and spend more time sharpening than doing any work. People spend their whole lives sharpening, resharpening, reprofiling, shaving their arms, cutting paper, stropping, polishing, micro bevelling and everything in between - and never get round to making anything. I’ve been very guilty in the past.

I think Paul Sellers is a good no bullshit start if you’re looking for YouTube guidance - good luck and remember all the stones/papers/pastes are just abrasives at the end of the day, there’s no black magic.


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## JoeS (30 Dec 2020)

Rorton said:


> thanks, Im getting caught up in different video on you tube saying you need a rough, medium then fine stone/plate, 400 - 2000 seemed a big jump with nothing in between, like going from 80 grit sandpaper to 320 grit while skipping other steps
> 
> if what I have it good enough then I’ll give it a go and see how I get on.



Grit is often not linear and varies completely between manufacturers. Trust the course/medium/fine advice given by the manufacturer more. One 1000 grit stone and another are completely different - the stones rating in microns is generally a better guide, but still very different !


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## JoeS (30 Dec 2020)

Awac said:


> Read everything you can, buy books. You will never get the sharpness you want until you understand what is happening.
> 
> A good first book is_ "The Perfect Edge: The Ultimate Guide to Sharpening for Woodworkers"- Ron Hock _clearly explains everything for a start in sharpening. Clear big pictures.
> 
> Sharp. It becomes a sickness, be careful....__



Drat- now I’m on Amazon looking at the damn book.

OP - don’t get sucked in. I’m too far gone.Take my advice and save yourself before it’s too late.


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

I don’t have the time or patience to get hooked yet on sharpening!

I seen a Draper honing guide on Amazon so will get one of them and see how I go!


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## johnnyb (31 Dec 2020)

I've seen unbelievable quality work done with one stone(an india stone) and stropping on the palm(don't do that for heavens sake) its mostly about the abrasive reaching the end sharp bit tbh.
the above level of sharp is fairly simple to achieve but extremely effective. for most joinery work that is plenty sharp tbh. chisels being narrower(and less fussy about the edge shape tend to be easier than plane irons.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Don't forget that since the stone age (or earlier) until only very recently, freehand honing (usually with a slightly rounded bevel) has been the norm, and is still the easiest and quickest. 
But don't let that put you off buying shiny expensive gadgets if that's what turns you on! Caution; brass knobs and diamond dust can be addictive.


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## Doug71 (31 Dec 2020)

I always feel such a heathen when people are discussing sharpening.

I just freehand on a double sided diamond plate and regrind when needed, always sharp enough for what I do.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Doug71 said:


> I always feel such a heathen when people are discussing sharpening.
> 
> I just freehand on a double sided diamond plate and regrind when needed, always sharp enough for what I do.


Too easy!
n.b. narrow chisels, say below 3/4" don't need grinding. Hone alone. Unless they are great thick morticers.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

I've never really seen the point of diamond stones. Yes they cut well but there is only a thin layer of dust, which will go eventually.
Non-diamond grit stones also cut well but although the grit pieces themselves won't last as long they are there 100 or more times the depth of the diamond dust. They tend to last for life.
I bought 3 eze laps some years ago in a moment of madness. I see they'd be £250 ish now. Can't sell them on as there is no way of demonstrating how much life is left in them


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## Ttrees (31 Dec 2020)

I like diamonds as I don't have to mess about with oil, and give everything a dab with a rag in a can type deal, and can keep hands cleaner that way.

I vote for diamonds mainly for messier plane irons though, not chisels.
I've got 2 of the cheapest ones you can get on the web, DMD are the brand, the thin ones, a 400 grit and a thousand, cost about a fiver for both of them, freepost.
I used them for a while to see if they were any good, and they seem to be impressive, but annoyingly thin.
Eventually I decided to bond them to some granite off cuts with some Lidl epoxy, thinking the rubber might not bond being probably filthy, even if scraped.
Way more usable now
They have held up for me just fine, and do the hard work, and can hone a mean profile to a strimmer blade as well as a chisel.

ITS/Ultex do a very frequent half price sale on the hones bonded to some thick plate, and I seen that similar priced ones to that are on the bay now.

The diamonds are far more aggressive when new, and can take some time to settle in, so you would need to strop afterwards.
I've got a fancier wee plate, $50 Dia-sharp for that.

Tom


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

Well it didn’t quite go to plan.

The whetstone I had seemed to wear quite quickly, definitely not flat any more, and generated a lot of slurry.

not sure if poor quality stone (it’s wusthof for the expensive knives I have ) or poor technique but another 20 sessions and it won’t be much use. 

any suggestions then on what to buy to get a beginner to sharpening up and running.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Rorton said:


> Well it didn’t quite go to plan.
> 
> The whetstone I had seemed to wear quite quickly, definitely not flat any more, and generated a lot of slurry.
> 
> ...


An absolute beginner couldn't do better than the Norton India IB8. Medium and coarse. Once he's got the hang of it he could add one more finer stone and get into polishing on leather, or disc, with autosol or similar.
PS not from Axminster they have it on at a silly price. I guess they don't want to encourage sharpening cheapskates!


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

Thank you, looking at that now. It says can be used with oil or dry, assuming oil is best


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Rorton said:


> Thank you, looking at that now. It says can be used with oil or dry, assuming oil is best


Definitely oil. I use half and half with white spirit. Keep it well flooded, not just a smear.
A magnet is good for lifting off swarf and keeping it clean. Wipe after use and put lid back on box so it doesn't dry out (you need a wooden box - trad woodworker project No 1)
Will need occasionally refreshing with a light scrub over - SS pan scrubber, coarse bit of stone etc. I use a 3M diapad because I've got one but they are not cheap


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

And is mineral oil ok, ie liquid paraffin?


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Rorton said:


> And is mineral oil ok, ie liquid paraffin?


Probably - as long as it is non setting and not too thick - don't use linseed oil! I use 3in1


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Come to think - if you do go the freehand oil stone way you are saving a huge amount of money so investing in a 3M Diapad is more affordable and would be a good investment. I use the black grade. About £20 sometimes cheaper on ebay.
They last forever, very good quality - I bought a set about 20 years ago for cleaning up a stone fireplace and I've still got them. Good for glazing too and other processes.


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

Thanks, I’ve ordered an IB8 from eBay for £30 so that’s on its way, I’m going to make one of those boxes from solid timber and then route the hole out for the stone to sit in I think. Use some magnets to keep it closed. A mini project 

will check out the 3m pads too. Black is 120grit from what I read

all this is ending up costing me more than a new set of chisels, will have to buy better ones now to justify the sharpening gear


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Hope I'm not leading you up the garden path!
The medium grit is good for beginners because it produces a result good enough for most purposes, but mainly because you get a result fast and can see where you've been and how things are going. A very fine stone can be very frustrating as nothing seems to be happening for a long time, so best left until later when you've got a working system going and have more of a feel for it


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

I dont mind if it will do the job and I dont have to keep buying, lots of reviews seem to favour the IB8 so happy enough with that.

Do you mix oil/whitespirit in a little bottle and keep it handy when sharpening? im guessing Id be better off with a guide too, I seemed to think that the top of the chisels were not level if that makes sense, the top isn't 90 degrees to the sides, as thought I may have added an angle with my poor effort today.


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## Awac (31 Dec 2020)

Rorton said:


> I don’t have the time or patience to get hooked yet on sharpening!
> 
> I seen a Draper honing guide on Amazon so will get one of them and see how I go!



I think you mean the Draper which is a copy of the eclipse. 
Do yourself a favour and watch *"Modifying an inexpensive honing guide" *on you tube by fine woodworking. It makes it much more accurate for a few minutes of your time.


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

Yes that’s the one, will check the video, thanks!


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## Awac (31 Dec 2020)

Rorton said:


> I dont mind if it will do the job and I dont have to keep buying, lots of reviews seem to favour the IB8 so happy enough with that.
> 
> Do you mix oil/whitespirit in a little bottle and keep it handy when sharpening? im guessing Id be better off with a guide too, I seemed to think that the top of the chisels were not level if that makes sense, the top isn't 90 degrees to the sides, as thought I may have added an angle with my poor effort today.



White spirit or kerosene oil mixtures are good and do work, but I find they irritate my skin if I use it to much, you might be lucky.
If not, personally I have found sewing machine oil bought by the litre lasts a long time and does not irritate. The most important thing about sewing machine oil is it is made not to _gum up_, think about a sewing machine with all the fabric fluff around it (speak to any sewing machine engineer, and ask what he thinks of 3-in-1.....after expletives, he will explain it clogs). I use India oil stones, they are good. My only suggestion is buy a cheap and I mean cheap coarse diamond stone, (like an amtech £6 with postage eBay) to refresh your oilstone surface and occasionally flatten.


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

Thank you. Will look into the coarse stone. 

How often do you find you need to refresh your India surface with the diamond?


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## Awac (31 Dec 2020)

Rorton said:


> Thank you. Will look into the coarse stone.
> 
> How often do you find you need to refresh your India surface with the diamond?



Not a great deal, and literally 3-4 rubs back and forth (why am I thinking of Vic and Bob...) keeps the surface fresh, no science to it, just when it feels right, stone cutting slows down. If you are only occasionally sharpening you might not need to _flatten_ an oil stone for a long time. If you are doing carving gouges, they can wear a grove after a period of time (much better than water stones for wear). 
Once you have everything sharpened and bezels to your liking, it does not take much effort to keep them. It is the _shaping_ of the bezel angle that takes the effort on a stone (I shape with a hand cranked wheel or a Pro-edge now, but I used to do it by hand) and you can use that coarse diamond for this, but being cheap it has its limits for punishment.
Remember, what you are aiming for is to remove as little as possible.


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## Cheshirechappie (31 Dec 2020)

Rorton said:


> Thank you. Will look into the coarse stone.
> 
> How often do you find you need to refresh your India surface with the diamond?



The surface of an India fine stone needs refreshing about once a decade if you're using it occasionally, and take care to sharpen over the whole surface of the stone and wipe it clean of contaminated oil at the end of each day. If you're using it professionally every day, maybe once a year.

I have one I've used intermittently for about 35 years. The surface has never needed 'refreshing' to make it cut better, but because I haven't used the ends of the stone as much as the middle, it's worn about 1/2mm hollow in length. In that time, it's sharpened thousands of chisel and plane edges, and a good few other things, too.

Tip - before you have a 'proper' wooden box for it to live in, keep the stone in a thick plastic bag when not in use. Two reasons - it keeps dust and filth from contaminating the stone's working surfaces, and it stops the oil that leaks out of the stone from contaminating everything it comes into contact with. If the wood of the box is porous, it'll absorb oil from the stone over a few months, and start leaking it onto anything it's stood on. Either poly bag or wrap in rag, or soak the box in oilproof finish before it goes into service, and wipe it out at the end of each day. Only takes a few seconds.

The oil leaking isn't a problem with most natural oilstones, which aren't porous, just the man-made ones, which are. The naturals (Arkansas, slate and the like), you just wipe clean and job's a good 'un.


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## billw (31 Dec 2020)

Jacob said:


> Hone alone.



Terrible film.


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## Jacob (31 Dec 2020)

Cheshirechappie said:


> ....If you're using it professionally every day, maybe once a year.


A bit more than that. It's not just the swarf it's the wire edges, other dust and sawdust too. Every day or 'now and then' - just a quick pass when its well flooded with oil. It makes a huge difference


> ....
> 
> The oil leaking isn't a problem with most natural oilstones, which aren't porous, just the man-made ones, which are. The naturals (Arkansas, slate and the like), you just wipe clean and job's a good 'un.


Not the leakage more the spillage - they work best when well flooded and oily rags need to be on hand. Not a problem.


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## Rorton (31 Dec 2020)

Im planning on using some iroko I have to make a box and router out a section the exact size of the stone (half in each half) so it doesn’t move inside the box. Hopping that should be ok?


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## Rorton (1 Jan 2021)

Just looking at idea of what others make for a box to store the stone, and noticed that people that use a honing guide, suggest putting some 1” blocks of wood at either end of the stone, flush with the top of the stone, this way the guides wheel can start to run on the block of wood and not the stone and then you can use the whole length of the stone.
seem like a good idea or just overkill?


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## Orraloon (1 Jan 2021)

Looks like a good Idea to me. 
Regards
John


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## Nigel Burden (1 Jan 2021)

Bill Carter advocates a block at both ends of the box, so as the blade doesn't drop off I suppose.

Miscellaneous (billcarterwoodworkingplanemaker.co.uk) 

Nigel.


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2021)

Never felt the need for a block at each end but I can see the need if you use a jig.
Re freshening up the surface - I was thinking about CC's comments ^^^ contrasting with mine, he says hardly ever, I say every now and then.
The coarser the stone the more often it needs freshening - and vice versa; very fine stones hardly ever. In fact it's temping to freshen up a slow fine stone only to find that it made no difference at all - it wasn't needed. But a coarse stone feels different immediately. It removes a bigger quantity of coarser material and gunges up faster. Also the way I do it is quite fast and forceful with a lot of pressure, which is not possible with a honing jig.


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## Woody2Shoes (1 Jan 2021)

Gosh - another year passes and we have:
1) Yet another sharpening thread.
2) Jacob on a sharpening thread.

Ground hog day?! 

Happy New Year!


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> Gosh - another year passes and we have:
> 1) Yet another sharpening thread.
> 2) Jacob on a sharpening thread.
> 
> ...


Nice to be back!
It is a fundamental issue and is heavily worked over in many places, nothing to do with me! I don't start threads but I don't see why I shouldn't chip in if anybody asks for info. They chose for themselves.


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## Cheshirechappie (1 Jan 2021)

I think the usual material for oilstone boxes was whatever happened to be available. Cabinetmakers might find a nice piece of mahogany, shopfitters would have access to offcuts all sorts of choice timbers; teak would nice, being oily, but very hard to find these days.. Iroko should be as good as anything.

The end-grain inserts at the stone ends are something seen in quite a few vintage oilstone boxes. I think the logic is that a bit of a run-off at the ends of the stone allowed even a freehand sharpener a full stroke, allowing more even wear at the stone ends. It's not compulsory - more boxes don't have them than do - but it does show that bit extra care taken by someone taking pride in their kit.

A few years back, one of our occasional contributors, Graham Haydon (come back Graham - all is forgiven!), made a You-Tube video showing a simple oilstone set-up. He had two blocks of wood the same thickness as the stone screwed to a scrap of melamine-faced chipboard. One of the blocks was long enough to allow the honing guide a full run back off the stone; the other block just stopped the stone from sliding forward. Thus, he had long runway, stone, stop block. He could lift the stone out to wipe off surplus oil, which obviously the melamine helped with. Also screwed to the melamine was a block set the right distance from the edge of the board to set the right projection of blade from honing guide, so he didn't have to measure each time. Just set blade edge against stop block, slide guide to touch board edge and tighten up. Very quick, once set up.

So that's another idea for an oilstone and honing guide set-up.


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2021)

If you intend to sharpen freehand it’s important that you don’t alter the angle as you slide up and down the stone – fairly obvious, I have always used my knees as pivot points so that my upper body and arms are sort of locked in the same shape, difficult to explain, anybody else do it that way?
It’s got me thinking. I might have to video myself doing it, I might be able to describe it then ha ha Ian


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## Rorton (1 Jan 2021)

Haha I saw a video with a chap describing a dance as he was sharpening. What also seems apparent is some people don’t just push the edge up and down the stone, but have the chisel at right angles to the stone and move it across that way

i recon you should do a video though!


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2021)

I think that would be just too embarrassing lol


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## johnnyb (1 Jan 2021)

you really never have to refresh the surface. im guessing that's the secret. a clogged stone and thick oil gives a finer hone!


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## Bm101 (1 Jan 2021)

Rorton said:


> Just looking at idea of what others make for a box to store the stone, and noticed that people that use a honing guide, suggest putting some 1” blocks of wood at either end of the stone, flush with the top of the stone, this way the guides wheel can start to run on the block of wood and not the stone and then you can use the whole length of the stone.
> seem like a good idea or just overkill?
> 
> View attachment 99912


It makes a lot of sense if you are using a jig, otherwise you are not only not using the whole stone, you are encouraging dishing a bit which leads to more stone maintenance. Before anyone jumps down my throat this is a long term issue and will affect softer stones more obviously. 
So let's retain some sense of calm. *whistles*
I use the ultex diamond stones Rorton in a offcut sheet of mdf with a hole routed out so the stones sit flush. (So...sameish principle). At some point I want to buy/find/skipdip a bit of thick acrylic to replace the mdf as it's not ideal tbh and getting a bit 'raggy'. Plus I can stick a bit of scarysharp to it as a hone. I bought some a while back but haven't used it yet. Sometimes I use a veritas jig for repeatable results, mostly not if i'm just touching up an edge. The original idea was for ease of use with the jig but even freehand I find it's just easier everything being flush. Eventually I want a a 3 diamond sheet maybe A3 size I can hang on the wall out of the way on a screw to save space etc.


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## D_W (1 Jan 2021)

johnnyb said:


> you really never have to refresh the surface. im guessing that's the secret. a clogged stone and thick oil gives a finer hone!



clogging on oilstones probably happens three ways:
1) swarf from the stone (crystolon stones do this with light oil - they need a lot of oil and a bath is better. with an oil bath, there isn't another hand grinding stone that comes remotely close, not even diamonds, regardless of how tough the steel is). 
2) pinning (wire edge can come off on india stones, especially with stainless and A2, etc (v11 is stainless) - or just with soft steel) can end up on the surface and pinning mutilates edges
3) drying oil

1 and 3 solve themselves with the introduction of more oil (as long as a drying oil that shouldn't be used isn't _too too _old and dry (simple green soak usually loosens that stuff, but you can just grind it off, too). 

2 needs something that grabs the pinning more than the stone, or abraded off

I never refresh an india stone, but will wire brush pinning off. 

pinning looks like no big deal, you may feel it, etc. It's destroying an edge when a little point of metal sticks in the stone and nobody hones as much off as the pinning creates (it can easily create nicks 2 or 3 thousandths deep, meaning at least that much of the edge has to be removed to get a fresh edge, and it would take half an hour to hone that much off with most finish oilstones). 

Hopefully this doesn't get too complicated to the starter of this thread. Freehand and oilstones is my mode of choice, period, and I've had at least 300 sharpening stones and have played with everything. I've had two wet grinders (both gone) have three wheel grinders right now and two belt grinders, and right above my sharpening station is a stone that cost $700. I prefer a simple hard middle stone and something cheap for finishing ,and a buffer is good to have once you get down sharpening to an apex. 

I don't agree with jacob on the rounded bevel and if he were in the states, I'd show his edges under a scope to show why. He'll spend more sharpening time than I do and get a worse edge. It's OK if you're not finishing things with tools, but it's an easy issue to solve, biasing the process to create an edge that most people will never experience in about 30 seconds. For me, It's washita and then buffer, or on harder steels, india/washita/buffer. The really expensive stones are fun to figure out how to get the most out of and they can have interesting feels, but the work-a-day stones you can just use and beat on and do whatever you want and never feel like you have to be precious (and they're fast).


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> If you intend to sharpen freehand it’s important that you don’t alter the angle as you slide up and down the stone


It's OK as long as you don't lift it. Basically you hone fast and hard at 30º but with a slight bias towards dipping so that you are backing off the bevel at the same time. It's how everybody used to sharpen from the stone age until about 1980 (?) when they started think about it, getting confused and making it difficult. I'm not sure how the obsession with flat bevels came from. I guess it's the beginners' injunction to avoid "rounding over" and getting an ever steeper bevel. This has been misunderstood by a whole generation. What I (and the whole world) used to do, could be called "rounding under" if that'd help!


> ....... I have always used my knees as pivot points so that my upper body and arms are sort of locked in the same shape, difficult to explain, anybody else do it that way?
> It’s got me thinking. I might have to video myself doing it, I might be able to describe it then ha ha Ian


Can't wait! I've heard of these mysterious "locked joints" but the nearest I've ever got is a touch of arthritis. Be careful!


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## Jacob (1 Jan 2021)

D_W said:


> .....
> 
> I never refresh an india stone, but will wire brush pinning off.


Same thing, Just a quick scrub and a wipe


> pinning ......
> 
> Hopefully this doesn't get too complicated to the starter of this thread.


Ho ho ho!  "Pinning" is a new one for me


> ......For me, It's washita and then buffer, or on harder steels, india/washita/buffer.....


For me it's Norton India medium to Norton India No 0 fine (might be obsolete it's a number on an old double-sided stone) followed by buffer on leather plus Autosol or on an mdf disc. I've got lots of others including Arkansas with which I have a fiddle with but they seem a bit useless.


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## D_W (1 Jan 2021)

figured I'd call it pinning as that's what it is on a file. No clue what you'd really call it. 

How many stones I use is somewhat dependent on tool hardness, but I'm making most of the tools I use now, so I can control that and choose. 

As far as the very fine indias, I bought a sharpening stone lot from japan. I'm fairly sure that one of the stones is a brown vitrified stone about equivalent to a 6000-8000 grit finish stone (sort of an ultra ultra ultra fine india). Two of the other stones are ultrafine india stones (much finer than a fine india, more like 2000/3000 grit equivalent. Far better than anything of a waterstone type in that range. 

Norton has a UF india part number, but I haven't seen one sold in years. Too bad. They could be used front and back and straight to autosol to polish off a burr and be in the neighborhood of a shapton 16k stone. In theory, I paid about $6 each for those stones from japan. Also included was a solid white alundum 8x3 stone called a "Barber oilstone". More or less a synthetic version of a trans ark. If I had anywhere to put stones from those gloms, I'd order more.

We sometimes hear from the gurus how advanced the new stones are, and to some extent, it's cheaper now to get closely graded alumina (but that doesn't seem to have translated into better stone prices). There are industrial things like seeded gel and other specialty aluminas put in even more expensive stones, and my understanding with most of them is that they decrease heat in power grinding. What's the point of that dumped into a sharpening stone? It's a waste. 

Somewhere around 1900, the germans and some american companies made finely graded barber hones, as well as others more common with 1200FF abrasive. I've seen a few in 8x3 format that were marketed both for razor production (initial shaprening) and to woodworkers. Woodworkers and carpenters wanted nothing to do with them and few sold. When we hear about resin or synthetic stones being new, it's a bit of a barfer. No, professionals didn't think they were any better. They became popular when woodworking was turned over to amateurs.


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## mikej460 (1 Jan 2021)

I was taught to sharpen with oilstones and my first project was to build a dovetailed oilstone box complete with a wooden block at each end. I was always taught to use a figure of eight movement across as much of the stone as possible and don't take the chisel off the stone.


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## Rorton (1 Jan 2021)

The wooden block is free floating, just a pressure fit, not glued in?


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## Cabinetman (1 Jan 2021)

Jacob said:


> It's OK as long as you don't lift it. Basically you hone fast and hard at 30º but with a slight bias towards dipping so that you are backing off the bevel at the same time. It's how everybody used to sharpen from the stone age until about 1980 (?) when they started think about it, getting confused and making it difficult. I'm not sure how the obsession with flat bevels came from. I guess it's the beginners' injunction to avoid "rounding over" and getting an ever steeper bevel. This has been misunderstood by a whole generation. What I (and the whole world) used to do, could be called "rounding under" if that'd help!Can't wait! I've heard of these mysterious "locked joints" but the nearest I've ever got is a touch of arthritis. Be careful!


 The old adage about a picture and 1000 words would be apposite here Jacob, rounding over, rounding under, we need a diagram or two please.


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## mikej460 (1 Jan 2021)

Rorton said:


> The wooden block is free floating, just a pressure fit, not glued in?


Pressure fit. I made two about 15 years ago and they are still going strong. Pressure fit allows you to use twin grit oilstones.


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## Awac (1 Jan 2021)

Rorton said:


> Just looking at idea of what others make for a box to store the stone, and noticed that people that use a honing guide, suggest putting some 1” blocks of wood at either end of the stone, flush with the top of the stone, this way the guides wheel can start to run on the block of wood and not the stone and then you can use the whole length of the stone.
> seem like a good idea or just overkill?



I have always thought this was a clever idea for a guide, and keep promising myself that I will get around to making it. 
Made by the Luther grinding company. I have one of their hand grinders which I have to restore...yes when I get time!


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2021)

Awac said:


> I have always thought this was a clever idea for a guide, and keep promising myself that I will get around to making it.
> Made by the Luther grinding company. I have one of their hand grinders which I have to restore...yes when I get time!
> 
> View attachment 100025


They are all clever ideas. Too clever. It's easier without them.
I thought the cleverest ever was the simple Stanley; Vintage Stanley Honing Guide 25 and 30 degrees bevel VGC | eBay
Only work with slotted blades but very easy and you can camber as well. It's a good 'training wheel' - a beginner soon gets the idea and finds he can manage without it.


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## G S Haydon (2 Jan 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> I think the usual material for oilstone boxes was whatever happened to be available. Cabinetmakers might find a nice piece of mahogany, shopfitters would have access to offcuts all sorts of choice timbers; teak would nice, being oily, but very hard to find these days.. Iroko should be as good as anything.
> 
> The end-grain inserts at the stone ends are something seen in quite a few vintage oilstone boxes. I think the logic is that a bit of a run-off at the ends of the stone allowed even a freehand sharpener a full stroke, allowing more even wear at the stone ends. It's not compulsory - more boxes don't have them than do - but it does show that bit extra care taken by someone taking pride in their kit.
> 
> ...











How to Sharpen a Chisel Quickly and Easily


How to Sharpen a Chisel Quickly and Easily: This instructable is going to give you a quick and relaible way to put a sharp edge on your chisels. You will need; Norton India cobination stone size 8" x 2". This has a grey "coarse" side and an orangey brown "fine&q…




www.instructables.com





No video though


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## Rorton (2 Jan 2021)

Thanks for the link, exactly what I needed.
Is it better to remove the stone from its wooden box to use it, or sharpen while it’s in its box, or doesn’t it really matter?


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2021)

Rorton said:


> Thanks for the link, exactly what I needed.
> Is it better to remove the stone from its wooden box to use it, or sharpen while it’s in its box, or doesn’t it really matter?


Leave it in the box (Graham wasn't using one for his demo). 
That's the whole idea - it catches the oil overflow and you wipe the stone after use while it's in the box, or tip it out and wipe the inside of the box too, if necessary. You make a box for each of your stones and they stay in it for life!


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> I think the usual material for oilstone boxes was whatever happened to be available. Cabinetmakers might find a nice piece of mahogany, shopfitters would have access to offcuts all sorts of choice timbers; teak would nice, being oily, but very hard to find these days.. Iroko should be as good as anything.
> 
> The end-grain inserts at the stone ends are something seen in quite a few vintage oilstone boxes. I think the logic is that a bit of a run-off at the ends of the stone allowed even a freehand sharpener a full stroke, allowing more even wear at the stone ends. It's not compulsory - more boxes don't have them than do - but it does show that bit extra care taken by someone taking pride in their kit.
> 
> ...


The end grain block is another bit of over thinking, the curse of modern sharpening. 
Perhaps needed for jigs but not for freehand: you start with the blade on the stone obviously, but you can run it off the edges and/or the end. Then every now and then you turn the stone (still in the box, don't over think it!) end to end so that you use both ends and even out wear.


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## Rorton (2 Jan 2021)

Ok thanks, it just looked like on Graham’s web page, the stone was removed from the box, on closer inspection it’s the leather attached to a piece of timber which I thought was the box


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## Awac (2 Jan 2021)

Here is an old _how-to _from Pike 1913.
Old, but gives advice for care of oilstones, not much has changed since. 
Don't whatever you do start a discussion on what is best, hollow grind v flat grind? It will go somewhere you do not want to go.....yet...


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2021)

Awac said:


> Here is an old _how-to _from Pike 1913.
> Old, but gives advice for care of oilstones, not much has changed since.
> Don't whatever you do start a discussion on what is best, hollow grind v flat grind? It will go somewhere you do not want to go.....yet...


Very interesting!
No mention of a honing jig (not counting the grindstone attachment). They had been invented but only as a gadget to sell to amateurs or "gentleman woodworkers". Old ones (before mid C20) are very rare.


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## Rorton (2 Jan 2021)

Thanks. I think I’ll try without the jig, only worry is a couple of chisels are not square at the end. Would prefer not to rely on one as I feel it will be easier and hence I will sharpen more if I can just go to the stone and use it.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2021)

Rorton said:


> Thanks. I think I’ll try without the jig, only worry is a couple of chisels are not square at the end. Would prefer not to rely on one as I feel it will be easier and hence I will sharpen more if I can just go to the stone and use it.


They don't have to be dead square for most purposes. If you want them straighter just bias the sharpening a bit each time to take more off one side than the other.


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2021)

Just deleted this - needs working on!


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## Jacob (2 Jan 2021)

Just deleted this - needs working on! 
How do you delete a post completely?


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## Awac (2 Jan 2021)

Jacob said:


> Very interesting!
> No mention of a honing jig (not counting the grindstone attachment). They had been invented but only as a gadget to sell to amateurs or "gentleman woodworkers". Old ones (before mid C20) are very rare.


Notice they are trying to sell grinding wheels and stones. Freehand honing is much easier when you have a hollow grind as you can rock and feel the bezel, and is easier to freehand. This is a good argument for hollow grinding (careful, dangerous ground....!). 
If not using a grinding wheel and trying to reshape or put a good angle on a tool, I find it easier to use something like the eclipse guide for the donkey work, (my hands cramp up if doing it for too long) because you can direct more pressure with less effort. Then you can freehand as you work just to keep the edge fresh.

That's what I do anyway....if not using my pro-edge or hand grinder.


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## doctor Bob (2 Jan 2021)

Just use what you have and practice to get as sharp as you can.
Once you can achieve a nice consistant/even shape and a burr, then invest a bit.

Sharpening is very important, but is not mystical.


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