# Taking my business forward. How and do I need to rethink?



## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

Morning All,

Many of you have provided very kind feedback for my recent concrete desk lamps and concrete clocks and as a result I wanted to get opinion on how best to take said products and to start selling them. I was made redundant from my soulless corporate job last May and I am now looking at the bank balance and starting to think "ooh, there is about 4 months money left :-("

Ideally, I do not want to have to return to being an IT programmer and in all honesty I am not sure I would even get a job. The industry has changed and I was in a job where I was valued for my experience of the system rather than my development skills.

So given the above, I need to pull my finger out and try and get my products out there. I have the web site and the facebook page, but as you would expect, neither of these has resulted in a single order and I am at a loss regarding what to do. I don't want this venture to never get off the ground, especially, considering the time, effort and money that I have put in over the last 2 years to come up with products that I feel have potential.

Do I just need to accept that making any sort of living is not going to happen for sometime and I should park the business and just make / sell stuff at weekends and get a full time job?

If you have any valuable advice or pointers regarding how you would take these products forward, then I would be very appreciative of any pointers.

My web page / facebook details are below.

http://www.theconcretelab.co.uk
http://www.facebook.com/theconcretelab

Thanks


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## RogerP (4 Jan 2016)

Have you thought of selling on eBay or Amazon?


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## EddyCurrent (4 Jan 2016)

What about using somewhere like these ?

https://www.notonthehighstreet.com/join/signup
https://www.artfinder.com/ ( call it sculpture perhaps ?)


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## Steve1066 (4 Jan 2016)

Have you tried selling to shops, I would phone/send an email to any furniture, light and interior design shop in any area were there is money, knightsbridge, Chelsea, Kensington, covent Garden. And towns like Exeter Oxford Cambridge and Chipping Norton.
You have a boutique product and it needs a boutique market.
Hope that helps.


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## flh801978 (4 Jan 2016)

I cant really help with how to sell your products
They look exellent in your photos
But I feel that they are far too expensive untill YOU are a name or you may get coverage in glossy magazines
The lights to move on a direct sale website I would imagine need to be <£50
Clocks perhaps £30 ish
Or put them in trendy shops on sale or return but accept that they are going to take 50 %
I make custom parts for people so I'm lucky that mostly moneys no object in industry
but when making for homeowners/ hobbyists then sometimes i make stuff that i'm making a loss at,at my hourly rate i'e I cant make things fast enough to be competetive

I hope I'm wrong for your products because they look really good

Ian


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## cammy9r (4 Jan 2016)

Hi, while I too like the look of the products I also feel that they are far too expensive. 
Look at material costs, possibly quite low the costly part will be your time for manufacture.
Try and set up enough moulds to allow for a mass production of sorts, maybe not mass but around 10 at least. When I am making something I feel it would only take a tiny bit longer to make two or three of the items providing the material is processed in batches.
This would perhaps bring the cost down and make them more appealing to consumers. 
Making batches will also solve the other problem of the 2-3 weeks waiting, people don't wait unless it is out of stock and desirable, a latest must have.
I'm sure in big industry the more they churn out the cheaper it becomes but at the same time less exclusive. 
Good luck in your venture as the products are very nice.


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## mind_the_goat (4 Jan 2016)

Etsy https://www.etsy.com/uk/
Getting traffic to your own website is very hard you need to get on the phone then take your clocks on tour.
Take the items to local galleries and craft outlets, clearly your margins will be hit but no point in having a good margin if you can't sell anything.
This place http://www.danselgallery.co.uk/gallery.html does wood items, so your desk clock may be suitable, but there are many other galleries in Dorset, take a visit to Boscombe for starters. Given the high prices I would suggest you should consider approaching some London based commercial galleries too.
Commercial Interior designers would likely be choosing items for offices, take the items to show people, don't just email photo's (see below)
High end furniture shops
Bespoke furniture makers with showrooms might be willing to put one on display.
Liberties 

Ensure any items have your name on them to pick up repeat business direct to your own outlets.

Can you offer some sort of customisation?

In my opinion the photos on your website do not justify your prices, you are using an unusual material but this does not come across at all in the photos, you could just as easily be using plastic. It's going to be really hard to sell these from photo's but I think you could do better, try to show any texture, some close ups perhaps, or try playing with polarising filters on the lights and lenses. There is no sense of scale for the wall clocks and they do look photoshopped, try some real backgrounds to photograph them against. Add some better descriptions, weights, manufacturing process, add some arty BS about the contrast between fluid and intangible time against the solid and immutable concrete  make them sound special and unique, which they are.

What movements do you use? Spending £1.5 on a movement for a £150 clock won;t help sell them, fit them with 'quality' movements and make sure you tell everyone. Fit self setting movements. eg http://www.mobatime.com/home.html


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## MIGNAL (4 Jan 2016)

Sell the clocks for £30 and you'll have to have them mass produced in China. You will literally have to sell them in the hundreds per month, maybe in the thousands. That makes the initial costs so much higher, with inherent greater risks. If they turn out to be very slow sellers you are left with a big loss.


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## marcros (4 Jan 2016)

i disagree about the price, providing that is a retail RRP type price, and there is sufficient margin in it for a retailer. if you were to sell direct for half of that price then you would never have the option of selling to trade- they wouldn't be able to complete.

I had read about the lamps without seeing pictures or prices. When I did see both, I was pleasantly surprised about both what you had produced (design and manufacturability), and the fact that they are priced at a boutique level. I agree with Steve1066.


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## Sheffield Tony (4 Jan 2016)

cammy9r":3cn7p623 said:


> Hi, while I too like the look of the products I also feel that they are far too expensive.


It is such a problem for selling hand made items of any sort. Peoples' baseline idea of price is set by that of mass manufactured goods - and probably low quality ones at that. At a craft fair before Christmas I was asked how much for a footstool (I had one there that was just for show; I was demoing, not really selling). Well, 12 pole lathe turned components split from one billet of ash, assembled, and a woven seagrass seat. Takes me a couple of days. What do you say ?

Perhaps the Amazon/Ebay/Etsy etc route is worth a try ? Did anything become of Handmade at Amazon ?


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## Rhossydd (4 Jan 2016)

flanajb":2ykvm7ws said:


> I am now looking at the bank balance and starting to think "ooh, there is about 4 months money left :-("
> Do I just need to accept that making any sort of living is not going to happen for sometime and I should park the business and just make / sell stuff at weekends and get a full time job?


16 weeks is very likely to be too short a time to develop a business fast enough to provide a living, especially in Jan/Feb/Mar.
Don't let yourself be bankrupted by failing to take action to get a proper sustainable income now.


> Many of you have provided very kind feedback


Be wary of people and friends being kind and not giving completely honest opinions. Ask the people who sell goods like this their opinion of them, they should tell you straight.


> I have the web site and the facebook page, but as you would expect, neither of these has resulted in a single order


The chances of making sales from pages like this are pretty slim unless you have a big stream of people visiting.


> If you have any valuable advice or pointers regarding how you would take these products forward, then I would be very appreciative of any pointers.


These look to be the sort of products brought by trendy people with plenty of disposable income. To sell to those you'll need to get the product into more 'designer' type shops (who will have slow turnovers and hence demand high margins), in places like London, Bristol, Leeds, Manchester etc, not the rural market towns. The other alternative to try to get them seen in glossy home style magazines, so you'd need to show them to the set dressers for those mags and persuade them to get them on shoots or plugged in design sections of mags. Also find any successful interior design blogs that have big followings and try to get the author to review and feature them.
Getting them into a big multiple like John Lewis would be ideal, but there are huge hoops to jump through and the process is glacially slow.

I assume you've 'done the numbers' and know exactly how much they cost to make and what your overheads are, so know how many you need to sell to make a living ? Is there a market for that number ?
Also that the products are completely legal to sell with all the necessary compliances and that you have sufficient insurances in place to cover any claims against you.
Local business associations can be useful for help on the more mundane/legal/financial aspects of running a business. If you haven't done some proper research on this do it soon. Being successful is mainly about selling and finance, not just building a good product.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

Some really good points made here and it is especially interesting to see the distinct split. Selling the clocks for £30 and the lamps for £50 would only be viable if I was to mass produce and get them made out of China or Eastern Europe where I can exploit cheap labour costs. I would not rule out such an idea, but it is not what I had originally intended.

I understand about economy of scale, but at the same time keep thinking back to a business quote where a seamstress was told to double her prices, but she was worried she'd lose half her clients. A mass production venture where all I do is rattle out clocks / lamps on a conveyor belt at knock down prices is not my idea of an enjoyable business model.

The comments regarding the photos are very valid. I am going to get some professional pictures taken with some really nice high resolution images of the concrete. Hopefully, it will show the visible sand grains and make them more appealing.

I have just applied to sell on 'Not On The High Street' so will wait and see what happens here.

As to the idea of selling in galleries. A clock at £175 rrp will most likely be sold to a gallery for < £100, so are you better off just selling direct to the public for £100?


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## howser (4 Jan 2016)

It might help if you list all that you are currently doing to try and sell your products ?.

I will give a few initial thoughts, they might seem harsh but you need to get past being offended by criticism (it can be hard when you have worked so hard on something), i have gone through a similar process with my business.

These are just some observations that instantly jump out at me having looked for no more than 2 minutes at your website.

1. It looks amateurish, like it was thrown together using dreamweaver and a schools guide to website building. Local councils can get away with this kind of rubbish website design, but someone trying to sell £10 worth of concrete for £300 cant. And i am not criticising your product btw, as i too sell simple bespoke products for big money.

2. Photography is pretty shocking, it does nothing for your products, pictures look dull and washed out, including the wood parts. Go on a photography course and learn how to present your products in the best light and also get some pictures with them in the surrounding for which they are intended, the harsh white blackout background does nothing for the grey concrete. Google Product lighting. (edit) Learn how to do this yourself it's not rocket science, dont water away loads of money on getting this done professioanlly, become a good amateur instead. There are guides on the internet about product photography and lighting hard to photograph products.

3. You only have Paypal as a payment option, add another card (consider stripe for this) provider and bank transfer options ? again payment page looks amateurish and having only paypal as a payment option also suggests this.

4. I googled conrete lamps, concrete clocks, conrete labs, the concrete labs, even googling "theconcretelab" gave me no results for your website in google. If you aren't on the first page or 2 of google wether that be through organic search or adwords you are going to struggle to even get views never mind sales. (edit) you dont need to spend thousands on website design, something like opencart and a good template from template monster and you can have a far superior website for a hundred quid with all kinds of paymnet options built in.

5. As someone else mentioned, your prices seem very high to me, if you are going to convince people to spend that kind of money on your stuff, you better be convincing them from the second they click on your website with amazing pictures, like someone ele said i think product options such as different woods for the lamp stand and different hand colours for the clock etc would be good and simple to implement.

6. Dont underestimate b to b sales, as i found out myself one good business customer is better than 100 private sales, private sales give a nice boost to my income but business customers are where my big money orders come from, i imagine boutique hotel chains would like your products etc.

Unless you have a ton of money to throw at this to pay other people, you need to become a jack of all trades. Product Design, Photography, Website design, Marketing, Accounting, Production etc etc.


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## Wizard9999 (4 Jan 2016)

Ah, I would have thought that market research should happen in parallel with product design, this is key to ensure you do not end up with a product with no market or that is pitched at too high a price point for the market that does exist.

To establish financial viability you need to establish what your cost to manufacture each product is, what margin you will make from direct sales via your website and on sales via other channels such as shops who you will need to sell to for a much lower price so they have a margin on the products, I would guess that a discount to retail of 30 to 50% is probably not unrealistic. Then take a conservative estimate on volumes. Margin times volume will give you contribution, from which you must then take the fixed costs of the business, repayments on any loans, etc. Finally work out what share the tax man will take of remaining profit. What is left after all of this is yours. Also, do not forget that if the revenue rises above a trigger point (was about £85k, but may be higher now) you are into the world of adding 20% VAT to your prices but this does mean you can reclaim VAT on expenditure though on balance the impact is likely to be negative overall. Do you think that you will get from zero sales to a level where you can support yourself if our months? To be brutally honest I would doubt it.

If that wasn't enough, you have a much more fundamental problem with the lamp. There is already a very similar product on sale, produced by a known 'name' in industrial design which won a design award back in 2009. This is being sold by one of the major online retailers of design lead household products. The price point they are selling at is higher, but with the similarity I think you may struggle to sell directly and / or find others to take your lamp unless there is 'clear water' between your lamp and the one that has been out there for years.

http://www.nest.co.uk/product/decode-heavy-desk-light

I am sure if this all sounds very negative, but I think you need to think very seriously about this before you 'burn' your remaining cash buffer over the next few months? Better to decide you need to find a paying job now than in four months time. Again, I am sorry if it sounds like I am trying to discourage you, I am not, just suggesting you need to be dispassionately realistic.

Terry.


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## Rhossydd (4 Jan 2016)

flanajb":2apb8znb said:


> A clock at £175 rrp will most likely be sold to a gallery for < £100, so are you better off just selling direct to the public for £100?


If a gallery sells it, first remove the VAT they have to charge > £145 then they'll probably expect to make a big margin because of low volumes, so they'll expect to pay around £80 or so and possibly expect sale or return too.
You need to do the sums.

The market exists for them. Just walk around Hoxton or similar and you'll see that type of product at that price.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

Rhossydd":12nszdfg said:


> flanajb":12nszdfg said:
> 
> 
> > I am now looking at the bank balance and starting to think "ooh, there is about 4 months money left :-("
> ...



Thanks for this. If I am to be honest, I really don't want to go down the route of selling through galleries. The John Lewis idea is the one I like the most and have given great thought too, but unsure how to proceed.

I have contradicted myself with that statement, but selling through a major home retailer is a very different business model to the one for selling through galleries. One can be done just by me, the other would require me to hire / train employees. I don't have an issue with that, as I actually enjoy the design and formulating the manufacturing process much more that I do making them one after the other.


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## custard (4 Jan 2016)

You are one of the most talented designers that I've seen on this forum, and your making skills don't look too bad either! What's more you seem tuned in to the contemporary style that makes your work particularly saleable.

However, despite your many abilities, if you need to pay off a mortgage and put food on the family table then unfortunately the answer has to be, get a proper job and build up the woodworking income as a sideline. 

You _can_ make a modest income from furniture, and if you are in the fortunate position of having almost no overheads and few financial obligations, then that modest income might be enough. But the reality is I don't know of a single designer/maker who generates a decent and reliable income purely from bespoke furniture making. To take a wage that's over £30k, everyone that I know has had to add a second string to their bow, fitted kitchens, teaching, joinery packages, boat fit outs, etc. Furthermore, even getting up to the modest £15-25k level that's more realistic from purely bespoke work, even that takes a year or two before the commissions start to arrive with reasonable regularity, and if you need to add a chunk of overhead by renting a workshop and buying machinery on credit then you'll almost certainly end up at or below minimum wage.

But it would be real shame if someone with your skills and originality hung up their tools completely. I hope you persevere along the commercial route, most sensibly in your spare time or on a part time basis, and I'd be absolutely delighted if you prove me completely wrong and make an absolute mint with your talents!


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## cammy9r (4 Jan 2016)

Sheffield Tony":32lhbtox said:


> cammy9r":32lhbtox said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, while I too like the look of the products I also feel that they are far too expensive.
> ...



@Sheffield Tony. You say a couple of days, is that 48 hours or two 8 hour days ~16 hours. How much do you need for your labour per hour £7 or £70. I did a custom paint job on a 'friends' motorcycle, many layers for colour variations and accents. Then clear coat and wet colour sand and polish to a mirror finish. Charged £350 for the lot including materials. He thought it was a lot of money but when I broke it down for him he saw I barely made £5 per hour.....so what should I have charged. Good fun as a hobby but finding a price is difficult.
Im only offering my opinion in that average people lurking on facebook will find £315 for a desk lamp a bit much. At those prices he is catering to a niche market and will find it difficult to shift products at this early stage.
My 2p worth and will let the thread continue on topic.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

howser":r8730dfn said:


> It might help if you list all that you are currently doing to try and sell your products ?.
> 
> I will give a few initial thoughts, they might seem harsh but you need to get past being offended by criticism (it can be hard when you have worked so hard on something), i have gone through a similar process with my business which is marine related.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your open and honest advice. The web site was done by me using a wordpress template and of course I was really pleased with it. I totally agree with the photos and am getting that sorted out this week.

A lamp costs ~ £25 to manufacture and all in not far off a day to build, so doing these cheaper is not really viable. I think I'd rather become a taxi driver.

I appreciate I have a great deal to learn.


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## Rhossydd (4 Jan 2016)

flanajb":27d7erjp said:


> The John Lewis idea is the one I like the most and have given great thought too, but unsure how to proceed.


Simply call them up and ask to speak to the buying department for homewares. Eventually you'll get through to someone who will talk you through the process and if you're lucky will post you one of their compliance packs. That's a big volume detailing what they expect from you as a supplier and how they'll trade with you.
Eventually you might get the chance to take them in to show and pitch to them, (ever watched The Apprentice or Dragons' Den ? you'll know the score).
Don't forget they'll expect nice packaging, instructions, CE labelling etc etc.

If you started now, you might get them in the shops by Autumn, if you're very lucky.
Not impossible, glacially slow, but a good company to deal with once you've got a sale.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

custard":1gt55do5 said:


> You are one of the most talented designers that I've seen on this forum, and your making skills don't look too bad either! What's more you seem tuned in to the contemporary style that makes your work particularly saleable.
> 
> However, despite your many abilities, if you need to pay off a mortgage and put food on the family table then unfortunately the answer has to be, get a proper job and build up the woodworking income as a sideline.
> 
> ...



Thanks, but like many others I have a large mortgage and need to be bringing in > 30k / year. The wife cannot help on the income front, so I am now starting to realise that doing this full time is not a viable option. I think I have had my head up my *$%£ in thinking that this was going to suddenly turn around and become a revenue generating business in such a short space of time.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

Rhossydd":3g8uy65l said:


> flanajb":3g8uy65l said:
> 
> 
> > The John Lewis idea is the one I like the most and have given great thought too, but unsure how to proceed.
> ...



Thanks.


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## Wizard9999 (4 Jan 2016)

Rhossydd":tmlhp1z3 said:


> flanajb":tmlhp1z3 said:
> 
> 
> > The John Lewis idea is the one I like the most and have given great thought too, but unsure how to proceed.
> ...



I can't see how you would make the volumes to make it viable for John Lewis. However, there was a TV programme a few years back on Liberty having opens days for small scale designers to take their products in for review, no idea if it is a reglar event or if it was a one off. Maybe see if you can find out. They would need lower volumes and could certainly support your product at a worthwhile price point. But the take-up rate was absolutely tiny compared to the hundreds queueing down the street for a chance to show them their designs. Still if they do run this event regularly and you get in...

Terry.


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## flh801978 (4 Jan 2016)

John lewis will only pay you 25% for your goods
A good friend is a jeweller and had a small display. in her local store .she was shocked by the whole experience

It so they can mark down unsold goods by 100% and still cover their costs

As others have said theres no way you can make yourself 30k a year with making things out of wood and concrete unless someone else is making huge volumes for you and they selling


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## Rhossydd (4 Jan 2016)

Wizard9999":3jt2mxq5 said:


> I can't see how you would make the volumes to make it viable for John Lewis. However, there was a TV programme a few years back on Liberty having opens days for small scale designers to take their products in for review,


Having now seen the 'one a day' I'd agree that trying to supply John Lewis is a pipe dream. I doubt Liberty would be interested, their stock range isn't so 'industrial', far more 'arts and crafts' some wonderful work there though.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

flh801978":1lzivjow said:


> John lewis will only pay you 25% for your goods


 Ouch! There goes that idea.


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## MIGNAL (4 Jan 2016)

I sell a high value item and selling on commission can be anywhere around the 25 - 35% range of the selling price. I doubt that John Lewis would entertain the idea of selling on commission but some small independents might. Whilst the item is on the retail premises it's not covered for things like damage or theft. If they offer to buy outright I'm looking at a 50% or more 'cut' in my normal direct selling price. It can be as high as 70%.


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## Wizard9999 (4 Jan 2016)

Rhossydd":2x1pndm7 said:


> Wizard9999":2x1pndm7 said:
> 
> 
> > I can't see how you would make the volumes to make it viable for John Lewis. However, there was a TV programme a few years back on Liberty having opens days for small scale designers to take their products in for review,
> ...



They sell a concrete candle holder for £270


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## mind_the_goat (4 Jan 2016)

flanajb":c4h3ppbl said:


> As to the idea of selling in galleries. A clock at £175 rrp will most likely be sold to a gallery for < £100, so are you better off just selling direct to the public for £100?



I think you completely missed the point, Galleries sell high end items, can show your actual item, have footfall, regular clients willing to spend money, probably including commercial interior designers, and also know the market. You however have none of those things, so even if you reduce your price to £30 you are still unlikely to sell much. Galleries sell low volume items, John Lewis sell mass produced items, you really need to think where your market is. 
Yes, you will need to make more samples, I think you have done the fun bit of the project and now the hard work starts.

Your prices are probably reasonable for handmade items but only if you can the right people to see them.

This all requires getting out there and showing your product, seems like now is the best time to do that while you have no other commitments, if you need to take a different job to bring in some money you will then have no time to do this. Actually getting out and selling this stuff may be well out of your comfort zone but you have no business unless you do. There is a reason sales people often make more money than the people designing and making a product and there is a reason many highly skilled people with great ideas never make any money. Could your wife help with researching possible contacts, making calls and arranging appointments while you make some more samples? This may be your only chance, don't blow it


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## AJB Temple (4 Jan 2016)

Flan ajb - you asked, so I will be blunt, like some of the others. I did think this when I first looked at your website when you asked about steam bending, but kept quiet. Please don't take offence: but really you are throwing money away. I think you are going about this in a fundamentally wrong way: you have started with products that you can / want to make and are trying to find a market for them. You have pitched the prices into the high end sector, which is very limiting, and your web site is rather poor as it provides very little detail.

The only way to succeed in business, without a lot of luck, is to identify the market demand and then fill it. 

If you look on Amazon, clocks are plentiful and cheap. Who wants a concrete clock? You give no information about the quality of the mechanism and do not show how a heavy item can be hung. There is nothing to justify the price, which starts at £115. The only place where you might sell this kind of thing is high end design shops, such as the Conran shop. Volumes will be low. 

The lamp is competing in a saturated market (go into any DIY shed and you will see hundreds of cheap lamps. and you are using high labour steam bent woods leading to a price of over £300 for a rather basic lamp. This is dreamland. Ask yourself why anyone wood want a concrete lamp? The answer may be that it is fantastic for outdoor used waterproof and won't fall over in the wind: but whatever the reason is your website does not justify the purchase. 

Nor does your website have any means of placing an order or making payment, and it delivers no instant gratification as everything is made to order with a 2-3 week lead time (so it is clear you have no stock). People simply do not buy from sites like this when they can order on a single click from Amazon. 

I strongly advise you not to spend any more redundancy money on this until you have worked out something that you can make from which you can identify real demand and a route to market. You need cash coming in and I would not be relying on this as a business. You must find a route to market and a shop window that will get some significant traffic (by which I mean active web targeting and get yourself to London with some samples and leave them with design outlets). 

Develop a proper written business plan. Start with market demand. Then product range. Then pricing and costing. If it is not scalable you will not make money, so if you are intent in being an artisan maker of concrete products I think you will need another job as well. 

Either way, good luck with your venture. AJB


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## Lons (4 Jan 2016)

Hi flanajb

I've hesitated because it's obvious that you've poured your heart and soul into these products and there's nothing worse than people pouring cold water on your hopes and dreams. I know how hard it is and how long it takes to establish a business as I've done it.
It looks as if you've come down to earth so my opinion for what it's worth.

Your products look well made and very well thought out but difficult to find on-line and though they don't appeal to me personally there appears to be a market. I don't however think you would find too many buyers willing to speculate a lot of hard earned on an unknown product from an unknown company website which it's easy to assume is from a private address, ( no address and just email plus mobile number ). I can't see you making any kind of living anytime soon from your website unfortunately.

However much it goes against the grain, you need to get your products on display and if that means giving the retailer a high proportion of your perceived value then so be it.
You need to cost out materials, time and labour plus a % of your overheads and price it at a figure you're happy with for trade then double that figure for retail.

It's easy to say you're not giving some retailer 50 or 70% off retail but the alternative is probably that you don't sell any at all and don't forget that 50% of nothing is nothing!

I sincerely hope it works out for you but in the meantime I'd start looking for a job even if short term to pay those bills

regards
Bob


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## Mr_P (4 Jan 2016)

When I finally get round to launching my idea, I'll be contacting all the relevant bloggers on the subject and sending out samples to generate a bit of buzz and website traffic. 

Think you need to give a lot thought to downsizing.


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## beech1948 (4 Jan 2016)

flanajab,

You produce good sound designs and good levels of workmanship.

Photo's look plastic not concrete. Thats an issue as it immediately devalues the product.

Designs look OK but are almost too similar to plastic cheapos in the £15 to £30 price band. Product is devalued.

I feel that there is a market for expensive clocks BUT ! design is everything and I feel you need to lift your designs a little to stand out.

It may be unusual shapes
It may be more textures
It may be colours
It maybe size

Customers will want to know....why cement.? Why plain almost 60's ish designs. Why so expensive. Afterall clients do not worry about you making a living at all. John Lewis also could not care less.

Mid-century modern ( an American phrase) seems to be making a comeback over there and will probaby resurface here.

Potential markets.

High end designers, architects, show homes, sellers of 60's and 70 furniture made in the Danish style of teak or veneers, etsy, custom products for one off buyers.

Market issues

Price ? Most people buy a lamp, put in place and forget about it. Plastic cheaper clock competitors

Designs ? Texture, uniqueness, 

Outlets ? Few and far between

Sorry to be a bit negative. Thats no bad thing though as I'm applying 48+ years of marketing experience and the experience of running my own company.

I too exited the IT industry recently. IF you need the money then go back to IT and maybe work as a contractor and maybe work 3 days a week to cover the mortgage and spend the rest developing the business ideas. It does not matter if you hate it as its a means to an end.


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## davin (4 Jan 2016)

Firstly don't get despondent.
You have a great product. I have been thinking making a range of smaller products to sell online for a long time, but finding the time to develop the idea with a young family and bills to pay not easy.. 
You have the time, the product and some money!
A friend of mine is developing lighting, so we went to 100% design show in London last autumn. This is the kind of place you have to be.
Designers, architects, specifiers, buyers from all over the world go there.
A week after this there is a large design show in East London for startups, Buyers also go there to check out what is happening on the street man!
We spoke to many light manufacturers, not all were large companies. Many are one man bands like yourself who have developed a few products.
There were some guys from Slovenia who had some really nice products. They got funding from kickstarter (many similar crowd funding sites).
They were selling all over Europe (and I believe they had several large orders from the show).
You might spend £1000 on a stall and not get any orders, but who knows who has picked up your card and will get back to you. I will be honest I am not in my comfort zone in those kind of places, I am not good at selling myself (that's why I am rubbish at selling my products to shops) but you have to be to make it in the design world.
So stick with it. Don't make your site too UK centric, get better photos (etsy has some good advice)
And lets be honest, its got to be more fun than doing IT (no disrespect to IT guys!)
Good luck Davin

http://www.100percentdesign.co.uk/
https://www.kickstarter.com/learn?ref=nav


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## mind_the_goat (4 Jan 2016)

AJB Temple":3oqw6mwr said:


> The only way to succeed in business, without a lot of luck, is to identify the market demand and then fill it.



I don't think anyone knew they wanted an iphone before Apple started selling iphones. Not suggesting this is in the same league but when it comes to decorative items few people know exactly what they want till they see it, maybe luck is involved but good marketing may have more influence.

There is clearly a market for higher end decorative pieces it's just a question of how to tap into it. I still think fj has a chance to get these onto the market for a little additional investment in time and money. If he can sell a few items through specialists he can then think about designing new products, or they may be able to provide feedback. may well be that he has to find other work but if he get these out there first then the business has a chance, even if it's only as an additional income.

Thinking about it, the name ConcreteLab could be a problem, as well as sounding industrial ( the products don't look industrial) it also rather restricts your other product options. would be better to just go with your name (or make one up) to give it that 'designer' appeal. 

I don't think you should give up just yet, but maybe I'm biased towards wanting you to succeed as an IT person myself I'd like to think I could break out into something else one day.


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## Inoffthered (4 Jan 2016)

The John Lewis idea is the one I like the most and have given great thought too, but unsure how to proceed.

.[/quote]


I think your view of the "John Lewis" option would change when you see their contract. As with all of the big multiples they know how to squeeze their suppliers and whatever your starting price is they have a number of ways of chipping away at your margins for example:-

They operate a rebate scheme based on any increase in year on year sales of your products which can be as much as 6% off your invoice value.

In addition they will extract a 2% contribution towards their marketing and promotion costs (for their general marketing, not to promote your products specifically). The 2% is calculated BEFORE any of the other charges/ deductions are made.

They operate a just in time delivery policy and charge a 5% per week penalty if any orders are delivered late.

John Lewis also retain the absolute discretion to mark down the selling price of your items and charge the supply a maximum of 50% cost price discount

They charge a settlement discount of 3% on ALL payments to suppliers and they pay 60 days after the invoice is received.


When you add up all of the rebates/discounts etc your final margin is nowhere near where it started so you would need to factor these into your initial selling price. Also bear in mind that they are "never knowingly unsold" which could create problems if you did find another retail outlet to sell your items.


With regards to more general comments, my advice would be to avoid selling too cheaply, it is too easy to become a busy fool. The trick is to find the right market and then sell your stuff in a way that can justify a premium price. This will mean presenting your web site in a stylish way and ensuring that product photos show the quality of the items. 

Unlike some I don't have a problem with your business name, it won't be a problem if it is marketed and presented in the right way. (Who would have thought calling a business Weird Fish or Fat Face would have been successful?)

I know of numerous people in your position that use Pinterest as a means of exposing their products to the market place.

You could get a stand at any of the trade shows or Chelsea Flower show but this involves an element of risk in that you have the certainty of a cost with uncertainty as to the number of sales.


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## MIGNAL (4 Jan 2016)

Who would have thought 'Carphone Warehouse' would be a suitable name for a high street retailer selling mobile phones. I know it may have started out aiming at the car market but when you think about it it's a pretty naff name.


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## heimlaga (4 Jan 2016)

To be harsh I got the impression that you are a very good designer, a good craftsman, a mediocre production planner, a mediocre salesman and a diastrously bad economist.

All of us have an unique combination of those skills. Few are good at more than two things and every single person is disastrously bad at at least one of those things...... so in all you are a person no worse nor better than most of us. That is what we have friends and family and collegues fore. They make up for our shortcomings.

Being a very mediocre salesman myself I cannot help you with that....... but I am rather good at production planning and economy...... and I am absolutely sure that with your hobby sized production you cannot produce and market enough clocks and lamps per week to earn the amount of money you need to stay afloat.
3000 pounds a month before tax is a huge lot of money. I doubt a craftsman in any field can earn that much. I have never ever earned more than 2200 euros (1880 pounds) in a month even when I had a very lucrative job and worked long days. 

An one man business producing enough to stay afloat would include a concrete mixer that can mix at least two wheelbarrowloads of concrete at a time, and a series of some 200-400 moulds that you can put on a vibrating table, fill and vibrate and put on a rack to set when you have a concrete casting day. Then you need suitable silos for two kinds of aggregate plus cement so you can buy at least 5 preferably 8 cubic metres at a time of each sort of aggregate. The cement silo must be in a heated space.......and of cause you need an unheated building for casting.....plus you need a heated spray painting booth and an assembly room.
This would be viable if you live in a rural area and have an old empty barn you can put to use and friends in the scrap iron business who can find your machines cheap and if you are good at making things work......... but then you would be far away from the swankier parts of Greater London where your customers live....... and as we are both equally bad at marketing I doubt you could sell all those clocks and lamps you produce. I am absolutely sure that myself I couldn't sell that much whatever I did.


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## Craigus (4 Jan 2016)

This has been an interesting read. I can't really add anything extra that hasn't already been mentioned, except the obvious which you may have thought of already... or may have overlooked due to your enthusiasm.

You enjoy this now because, even though you are looking at expanding it into a business, ultimately it's still a hobby.

Say it all worked perfectly just as you would like it to in whatever capacity that is. Give it 3 years and you will be sick of it and you'll be browsing a Golf forum rather than this one as that will be what you do for fun as concrete molds and steam bending are no longer enjoyable and just another boring production run.

Not in every case is that true but you know what I mean. I very nearly learnt this the hard way.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

davin":dwy021l6 said:


> Firstly don't get despondent.
> You have a great product. I have been thinking making a range of smaller products to sell online for a long time, but finding the time to develop the idea with a young family and bills to pay not easy..
> You have the time, the product and some money!
> A friend of mine is developing lighting, so we went to 100% design show in London last autumn. This is the kind of place you have to be.
> ...



Thanks for that Davin. All very, very valid and necessary, but I too feel exactly the same as you regarding comfort zone and selling myself. This is where a business partner who enjoys that side of the business would be invaluable right now!

Some very nice designs / products at 100% design show!


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## Mr_P (4 Jan 2016)

Heimlaga but surely thats step 2.

No one invests in that kind of set up unless they are sure there is a market for the product ?

He's done the right thing by starting small and testing the market, if its a success he can increase production.

My rough calculations are 30k / 12 = £2500 he sells at £350 knock off on the high side £100 (he said £25 but other costs paypal etc..) so he needs to sell 10 a month to survive. Biggest current problem is lack of sales maybe its the price, drop it by half but will he sell twice as many ???


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

Craigus":3s9qtqbd said:


> Say it all worked perfectly just as you would like it to in whatever capacity that is. Give it 3 years and you will be sick of it and you'll be browsing a Golf forum rather than this one as that will be what you do for fun as concrete molds and steam bending are no longer enjoyable and just another boring production run.


 Haha. You know me too well! I do have the attention span of a gnat.


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## MatthewRedStars (4 Jan 2016)

The website needs tarting up. The shadow effect on the title bar is 'wrong', and the text underneath is fuzzy. Fonts on product pages are too big. Certain things not lining up.

Charging high prices is fine. But the branding has to be bulletproof. Grab an issue of Wallpaper and look at the adverts, that's who you're competing with and you're not on the same page with regard to slickness and branding. 

If you charging premium prices you need to pay for top class web design and book some studio times with an experienced product photographer. It's all or nothing. Then get schmoozing Elle Deco, set dressers etc.

I like the products btw!


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## MusicMan (4 Jan 2016)

+1 to all of the above. I've been an adviser to a number of small spinout companies, and the common failing is not realising that you have to be good at everything to do with the business. As has been said, you need to take finance, sales, marketing, personnel etc (when you get that far) as seriously as you take the product design. Most companies are started by designers/technologists/inventors who do not realise that they are only covering maybe 25% of the company's needs. You won't have all the skills yourself, but you have to have them available though colleagues or service companies etc. and you need to take the as seriously as the product design.

When I was running a small company in the USA, I joined a business discussion/training organisation called The Alternative Board, set up to help small companies over precisely such problems. The group was extraordinarily diverse: hitech scientific instruments, one-woman accountancy shop, a florist, geotech consultant, funeral director, storage and moving company, kitchen cabinet maker. But 80% of our day-to-day business problems were common to us all, and by sharing experience and training we solved many such problems. The most scary thing was that we often had not realised that we had the problems until someone else came up with them. 

It can be done if you have the right attitude and commitment, but it takes longer than you think to get everything together, even if you know this rule. I echo those who suggest that you preserve your income by taking on consultancy/contract work while learning and building up your craft business, if that is the way you want to go. And give serious thought to downsizing, as one of your problems will be cash flow, and another will be taking out the second mortgage for investing in the business. After persuading SWMBO that it is a good idea....

Keith


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## davin (4 Jan 2016)

I would also add that if I was spending that amount of money on a product ( or thinking of enquiring), I would want the website to tell me a bit more about the company and where you are based?

But I would add you are very brave for having a public critique session. I made my own website and it shows that I know very little about website design!


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## n0legs (4 Jan 2016)

flanajb":s6ecglr6 said:


> Haha. You know me too well! I do have the attention span of a gnat.



That's something you'll need to address if you want to make a success of this.
Keep your eyes open and your wits about you. 
Remember, "from small acorns mighty oaks doth grow" 
I wish you the very best of luck.


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## Rhossydd (4 Jan 2016)

davin":3q6lyujz said:


> I would want the website to tell me a bit more about the company and where you are based?


+1, in fact it's a legal necessity to have the business contact details on the site (although it's very rarely enforced).

I actually quite like the web site. It's clean design will appeal to the likely clientèle. The photography could be better, but isn't really as bad as some here might imply.
PayPal is actually a good choice to handle payments. Too many people fail to understand that you DON'T need a PayPal account to pay via their portal and it can accept any credit or debit card for payment without needing to set up one of their accounts. That needs setting out on the site.
Using Wordpress has a hidden advantage of delivering a multi platform compliant site that is being seen as a necessity for good ranking by the search engines now.

Where the site is a MAJOR fail is the lack of text. Search engines NEED text to be able to categorise and rank the site. They also like good appropriate keywords built into the page's code in the right fields, plus a good site title too. Goggle have a huge amount of help on their site to enable site authors optimise their site for Google to index, read it and act on it, that will give you the good ranking you need.
Most importantly, make it a good read that will explain why the products are good and enhance their appeal. Good text and good photographs will convert visitors to customers.


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## beech1948 (4 Jan 2016)

"Quote"
So given the above, I need to pull my finger out and try and get my products out there. I have the web site and the facebook page, but as you would expect, neither of these has resulted in a single order and I am at a loss regarding what to do. I don't want this venture to never get off the ground, especially, considering the time, effort and money that I have put in over the last 2 years to come up with products that I feel have potential.

Thats really the question. What do I do next.

You have some products...

You need to test market them. Others and I have suggested a few channels to explore but only you can explore them.
Make a list of channels.
Select those with best "high end" or upmarket branding.
Find their phone numbers and add to list.
When you have the first 10 start calling and try to get through to the buyers or MD for a small company. Make appointments to see them. If YES to appointment then send a letter of thanks confirming meeting, send emailed photos. When you see them remember that you are the head of a small manufacturer and not an oik off the streets.

Use the first 10 meetings to see "WHAT IS THE FIRST REACTIONS AND ADVICE RE MARKETS YOU ARE GIVEN". Do not try to sell, maybe ask if they are interested and what tyhey want to do next. Do not try to sell as it will happen organically if its going to happen.

Go home collate info and call the next 10 with a newly tuned message......you were going to get these ready between visits wern't you. 

So thts whats next. Test market, be passionate, be clear and share your vision. 

Selling is not the spiv like activity many imagine. A salesmans job is to ascertain what the client wants, judge how he may serve that want and having agreed that you have what they want to ask them to sign the contract. Thats the contract you already have available put together in between test marketing visits.

If you go ahead with this I see quite a lot of travel, hotel time and the need for patience. Even an outright rejection can be turned into a set of questions to find out why, what and how come. Be ready for the rejection as it will happen. Sales is often just a numbers game to find that customer who like what you have. 

Selling is a process and nothing special except the more experience you have the easier it is. Your current concept of selling is wrong I am certain. Selling should be about you, your integrity, your likeability your passion, your skill, and matching the client wants. 

Consider all of the different types of human there are and each is represented in sales so there is no reason you can not successfully sell.

A journey of a thousand sales begins with a first step.
make list of 10, 
call and get appointment
go see
test market

After the first 20 or so you will know in your heart if that market exists.

Branding is everything so consider image, appearance, clarity, names. The Brand tells people what you are. You might try to think of brands you like and write down 5 words you would associate with that brand..just tyo see what they are projecting to you.

Good luck if you go ahead. I suggest without the TEST MARKETING phase you will not make any more progress.


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## beech1948 (4 Jan 2016)

PS

FLANA would be great brand name either for the company or as a range brand for a product line.


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## shed9 (4 Jan 2016)

Interesting read and I will certainly be pilfering some of the advice on here for myself.

My advice for what it's worth and some of it is merely reiterating what others have already stated;

1. Don't despair but the possibility of this turning into a viable business in the timescale you indicate is clearly not viable. Perhaps get some freelance / contract work in order to meet the financial requirements that you have.
2. Sell your products and yourself properly. People that pay this amount of money for designer goods want to know more about their unique product. They want to know why and what makes it unique. They want to know who made it (and sometimes why). Give your back story and explain why you and why your products? I don't get any of this in your website.
3. Get your product in print - A friend of mine got her own simple product in a few good (high end) magazines and turned into a business success almost overnight. Exposure is key but be ready for the traffic in ensuring point number 2 is addressed first.
4. Get your product in the right environments. Try your best to get it into places like Purves & Purves, Heals, designer shops, etc. Yes they are going to screw you in their commission however being realistic they are not going to fly off the shelves leaving you out of pocket and it lets you associate your product with high end retailers, i.e. "as sold in Purves & Purves". It will also massively help you with point number 3.
5. Seek out your local (and national) business and funding assistance;
https://www.dorsetforyou.com/businessadvice
https://www.dorsetforyou.com/article/31 ... an-funding
https://www.gov.uk/browse/business
There will be others and don’t dismiss funding opportunities. There are plenty of small and large schemes which may be relevant to you. They generally expect some output in the form of jobs created and / or safeguarded but it’s certainly worth the phone call to see what is available. They may be able to provide you with some mentoring – this can be a bit hit and miss but at the very least you will get some contacts out of this option.
6. Repeat points 1 through 6.

Lastly - don't be too precious about your ideas or brand at this stage. Be prepared to change names, product design, etc. You can get too fixed on a certain path sometimes and blinker out other options often to the determent of the project. Don't get me wrong, 'm not suggesting that you dismiss your brand but at this early stage be prepared to change direction if it is needed, no matter how small or large a change.

Hope this helps and good luck.


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## heimlaga (4 Jan 2016)

Mr_P":1jhgmojs said:


> Heimlaga but surely thats step 2.
> 
> No one invests in that kind of set up unless they are sure there is a market for the product ?
> 
> ...



Yep that is step two...... but reaching step two is a long process......and until step two has been reached the business will not make enough money to support the household of mr and mrs Flanajb. 

That is my whole point!


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## Wizard9999 (4 Jan 2016)

You have had a lot of good advice in this thread. but ultimately, as many have said already you only have a business if there is a market for your product, therefore for me the number one issue is this...





I know the shade is different, but other than that the design is very similar to yours, even down to the red flex (which by the way half the concrete desk lamps out there seem to have, so maybe a different colour).

When I shop for things like a desk lamp online I do it through google images, that way I can see something I like before I go to a retailers site. The good news is that if I search on images of "concrete desk lamp" your pictures come up three or four times. The problem is that before I get to your pictures I have seen maybe 15 pictures of the lamp above.

The lamp above won the 2009 Elle Decoration best UK household design award, it has therefore been on sale for 6 years already and had a fair amount of publicity in the type of publications your target clients will read. So I fear that much of the demand for a desk lamp with a concrete base / shade and bent veneered plywood stem in the £300 to £400 price range has most likely already been satisfied.

Terry.


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## doctor Bob (4 Jan 2016)

Can I ask what the cost of the quartz clock mechanism is, it looks pretty cheap. 
I wouldn't pay £300 for a clock which had a cheap mechanism.
This one appears to have a different one to a standard £10 clock, which in my opinion gives it a bit more worth, FYI this is retailing for about £130


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## custard (4 Jan 2016)

custard":370mw87z said:


> You are one of the most talented designers that I've seen on this forum, and your making skills don't look too bad either! What's more you seem tuned in to the contemporary style that makes your work particularly saleable....
> 
> ...it would be real shame if someone with your skills and originality hung up their tools



Well spotted Terry and Dr Bob...and more fool me for being so effusive.


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## Wizard9999 (4 Jan 2016)

custard":136cepdu said:


> Well spotted Terry and Dr Bob...and more fool me for being so effusive.



I don't think you should apologise for being positive Custard, I only wish I could be less of a glass half empty person. It is one of the reasons I would never be able to do what Flanajb is trying to do and get of my behind and do something different!

Terry.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

I am glad I took the time to post. The comments on here have saved me from a great deal of anguish. My lamp design wad based on the one posted, but I decided to hone the design and in my view make it even more minimalistic. Concrete clicks too were already out there, so I thought I'd make them too.

I think custom concrete sinks and wall tile panels for architects is probably a better option. I am basing my pricing on what I think they are worth and what I want to earn / hour. 

I'll be honest and admit that I don't have the energy :-(

I appreciate the honesty from you all.


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## Woodmonkey (4 Jan 2016)

Interesting thread. Just to chuck my two pennies in, Davin has nailed it with the London design shows, there are a few different ones but these are frequented by the buyers from the top end design stores. I've been to a few of these and your work would definitely stand up against a lot of the stuff on offer. This is a much more professional way in than just cold calling John Lewis etc. I've done some work for a designer I know who regularly does these shows including ones in Paris and Milan and she does very well (or would not continue to do them.) Design junction and TENT London are two off the top of my head.


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## Lons (4 Jan 2016)

flanajb":287gaaca said:


> I think custom concrete sinks and wall tile panels for architects is probably a better option. I am basing my pricing on what I think they are worth and what I want to earn / hour.
> 
> I'll be honest and admit that I don't have the energy :-(



Hi flanajb

Energy is very definitely a prerequisite whatever you do in setting up and running a business. Without that you haven't a prayer. Your alternative products still need to be sold.

How did you come to the decision "what I think they are worth" btw ?

I know and have encountered many people with good ideas and the usual talk of determination, enthusiasm etc but who in reality failed to put in the legwork and effort. Building your own business means that it's with you 24 hours a day, you'll sleep on something and wake up writing the idea on a pad, you'll constantly be looking at the competition and for ideas and foreverlooking at your efforts in a very critical manner. Believe me, energy is something you can't do without unless you are extremely lucky.

It was mentioned earlier that it could become a chore and that is also a real risk, happened to me at one stage.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

Lons":j6faw290 said:


> flanajb":j6faw290 said:
> 
> 
> > I think custom concrete sinks and wall tile panels for architects is probably a better option. I am basing my pricing on what I think they are worth and what I want to earn / hour.
> ...



Hi Lons, for me the process started as follows.

I became interested in GFRC (much more prevalent in the US and Aus) and started researching using it to make furniture. As pointed out above, the lamp and other offerings where already being made, but like anything in life, you don't just stop pursuing an idea just because it is already being done. I looked at the lamp and though "very nice, but I can refine the design and make it look much sleeker". Whilst my design is similar, the differences are quite major. LED lamp rather than bulb, flex is integrated into the rear of the arm, switch removed from the base .... 

I digress, but my price is based on the hours and I mean hours spent over the last 2 years formulating a process for making the lamps and clocks. I have made master forms only for them to be destroyed by polyurethane rubber bonding to it. I have had more castings go in the bin whilst coming up with a mix design that works. Things like. 0% or 10% or 20% ground blast furnace slag. How about a 0.28 water / cement ratio. Ordinary portland cement from the builders merchant vs pure portland from Wales.

The list goes on and on. I probably sound like I am getting frustrated in trying to justify why they are priced at the cost they are, but is the work I have put in to date not factored in?

On a totally different topic, but regarding price. i read an article on a US forum regarding concrete furniture where a maker asked "how much can I charge for this concrete table?" The reply was an eye opener and so true. It read "market it as a concrete table for $100 OR a bespoke artisan ... and charge $1000. Your choice."

I think this comment is valid across all markets spectrums. Is a $10 pair of jeans from Primark really 1/8th of the quality of Levis. It's all in the branding and I am following that same principle.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

I am going to stick my head up from the parapet here. So I see a lamp design in the market and decide to change it as follows.

1) LED lamp with driver integrated into base
2) switch is on flex rather than base
3) Concrete is acid etched so as to expose sand particles
4) White cement and walnut or grey cement and maple
5) Flex is not visible as it is routed into the back of the arm

Designers take inspiration from other designs out there. If we didn't, there would only be one of everything on sale.

Before I am accused of plagiarism, take a moment to ask yourselves "are my ideas influenced in anyway by others I have seen or are they 100% mine?" If so, then commend you.

Disappointed that just because I base a design on something else out there the word plagiarist starts being bantered about.


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## petermillard (4 Jan 2016)

Yes, good thread - Kudos to Flanajb for posting. l'll just add that whilst I broadly agree with a lot of what’s been said above, I do like the the look of the products (though, as always, everyone's a critic, myself included) and I think they’re well priced for hand-made items.

Fundamental question though; are you an artisan making one-off exclusives (a slightly tough trick to pull off when there's a mould involved - custom colours may help) and selling direct, or are a small business supplying retail outlets in greater volume - assuming the volume can be met? These two options would need rather different approaches.

Lots to think about - good luck with it all, and keep us posted.


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## Rhossydd (4 Jan 2016)

flanajb":2kkygiv6 said:


> .... the word plagiarist starts being bantered about.


Only by you though!
It must be something that concerns you or you wouldn't have mentioned it.

As I've read it, the concern is not that you've copied someone else's work. The worry is that by being so similar to a fashionable item that's been on sale for a long time, much of your market has already been captured.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

petermillard":3alyc73j said:


> Fundamental question though; are you an artisan making one-off exclusives (a slightly tough trick to pull off when there's a mould involved - custom colours may help) and selling direct, or are a small business supplying retail outlets in greater volume - assuming the volume can be met? These two options would need rather different approaches.


As you have already sussed. One offs would be significantly more. If you have to make a rubber mold, your firstly need to create a perfect master item to use for the molding of the rubber. This really adds considerable time to a project.

Custom colors is a possible option, but my initial trials with using dyes has been one of frustration and too many throw away rejects.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

Rhossydd":2y27f3t1 said:


> flanajb":2y27f3t1 said:
> 
> 
> > .... the word plagiarist starts being bantered about.
> ...


 Really? Just because it's not posted in public does not mean it has not been mentioned.


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## Zeddedhed (4 Jan 2016)

Flanajb, my two cents worth.

I think the designs are great. The fact that they are based on similar items is irrelevant in my view. You've made them your own.
Probably agree with the others that the website needs a lick of professionalism, both on the general design and photography side.
I think the pricing sounds reasonable.
I REALLY would love to see you succeed with these.

BUT

I think it'll be extremely difficult to achieve your stated goals in the time frame. Interior designers, magazines, - all that stuff has been mentioned and is probably the right way to go but it's going to be a VERY slow build until it starts to make you anything like sensible money. I'd try them out on Etsy rather than Not On the High Street - much cheaper and you get more of the money.

Best of luck.


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## Duncan A (4 Jan 2016)

From someone who has zero design and business credentials....
I like your products and think they would sell at designer prices with the correct marketing, as pointed out in such helpful detail by many others on the forum. Your lamp in particular I find far nicer than the Elle model (which looked to me like an Ikea self assembly item) and I really don't think that anyone was hinting at plagiarism - after all, pretty well all desk lamps are similar due to providing similar functions. FWIW I think the twisted cord is too old fashioned for such a contemporary piece, but it must be said that my style sense has never been positively remarked upon!

If you do decide to go ahead, your first priority must be to cover the bills at home or you will never be able to give your all to the business whilst worrying about feeding the children/wife/yourself. If this means contract IT work whilst building up the business, so be it; at least you will be keeping your options open and may even come across some useful contacts as you move around from job to job.

Regardless, good luck with whatever you choose to do, and don't forget to give yourself credit for having got this far - it is no mean feat.

Duncan


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## doctor Bob (4 Jan 2016)

Here's how I see it.
The market is very small and there are quite a few companies already established

http://www.clocroc.com/index_en.html

I think you are chasing a limited market, I think it's possible to do with some clever marketing but this will cost. I'd work on getting a job at present.

Good luck, remember 4 months will fly past.


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## flanajb (4 Jan 2016)

doctor Bob":2dxm7plz said:


> Here's how I see it.
> The market is very small and there are quite a few companies already established
> 
> http://www.clocroc.com/index_en.html
> ...



I have seen the clocks being made by clocroc. Clever and cheaper and they must have a cnc router to hand to cut the vinyl faces. Looking at their product I now ask myself "89 euros for their offering or £175 for mine?" 89 euros works if I pay someone £10 - £15 / hour to make them for me. That is the issue with a lot of this. If you like working for peanuts then you are fine, otherwise, choose a white collar occupation. Sad that seems to be the way.


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## doctor Bob (4 Jan 2016)

flanajb":xdzeadqn said:


> I have seen the clocks being made by clocroc. Clever and cheaper and they must have a cnc router to hand to cut the vinyl faces. Looking at their product I now ask myself "89 euros for their offering or £175 for mine?" 89 euros works if I pay someone £10 - £15 / hour to make them for me. That is the issue with a lot of this. If you like working for peanuts then you are fine, otherwise, choose a white collar occupation. Sad that seems to be the way.



The wealthiest people I know started on the shop floor working for peanuts.


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## Lons (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":34snqdtu said:


> my price is based on the hours and I mean hours spent over the last 2 years formulating a process for making the lamps and clocks.
> I probably sound like I am getting frustrated in trying to justify why they are priced at the cost they are, but is the work I have put in to date not factored in?
> 
> Is a $10 pair of jeans from Primark really 1/8th of the quality of Levis. It's all in the branding and I am following that same principle.



I can see why you need to build in your development costs from the beginning and your example of the difference between a $100 v £1000 item being in how it's marketed...however, you are not in that position and if you're selling none and you won't if the pricing is wrong or the product not in the right market place then you won't recoup the development costs anyway. Certainly not a chance over your time scale.

The jeans, I don't see as a good example and there is a very real difference in quality between jeans from Primark and Levis apart from which they are targetted at different market groups entirely. I bought Primark jeans long ago for work and they weren't even fit for that! I think if you look at Levi and Wrangler they started from humble beginnings and built a reputation later reinforced by clever, aggressive and expensive marketing. ( I won't pay retail for Levis btw just wait for offers or a visit to the US :lol: )

Doc Bob has it exactly when he says


> The wealthiest people I know started on the shop floor working for peanuts.



James Dyson and Alan Sugar didn't succeed without getting off their backsides and pushing their products under the noses of everyone they thought could help them. I can't remember how many times Richard Branson failed before he made it. One thing they all had and still have is the energy, commitment and belief to make it happen but they also did their research.

I'm trying not to be too critical flanajb and like others applaud you for sticking your neck out, you clearly want it to happen and I sincerely hope you can it's just at the minute I think you should cover the bases and make sure your family comes first which means ensuring the bills are paid. Assuming you have a stable family you're going to need their 100% support.

Just my humble opinion though.
regards
Bob


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## YorkshireMartin (5 Jan 2016)

I love your products, I think they are cool and I can see them being featured in magazines, but I'd find another way to support yourself whilst developing certain key areas of your business and you may well do ok.

The photos are letting you down in my opinion. The lighting is flat, white background isolation is inappropriate as the sole illustration for a design centric product of this type, there is little context. They lack general quality. I'd hazard a guess they were taken with either a bridge camera or a low end DSLR with a kit lens. Product photography, especially for this type of product, is a task for a good pro product photographer in a studio. It's a specialist discipline of photography. Look at some interior design magazines or swiss watch adverts (Ulysee Nardin, IWC and so on) to see how they could look. Boutique product, boutique images.

The web site is a little bit amateurish and is definitely something I'd be looking to improve upon, because if you're USP is design, an amazingly beautiful web site is a must. They don't come cheap.

I have an issue with the use of *concrete* in a wall clock that costs £175, not sure why. I know a lot of effort goes into making these. Any chance of making them from a custom material to differentiate? Concrete can look amazing, but if the clock came up in conversation, perhaps people wouldn't immediately think it was a must have item, if you see what I mean? If you asked someone where they would buy a concrete wall clock, I'd imagine the most common response would be a garden centre. For that reason marketing might be more of an uphill battle than it could be with a few tweaks.

I think you're on to something, I really do, it just needs refinement and time.

Best of luck, it's a great idea.


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## Mr_P (5 Jan 2016)

Its been mentioned before but I'll mention it again after new info has been provided by the maker about the lamps.

Text,
Just had a quick look at the website and can find no mention of Made in the UK, 2 years of development finding the perfect mixture, you make your own moulds. Many folk will glance at your website and assume you are just an importer.

Regarding development costs, it might be better to bite the bullet and write them off or try and recoup them over a much longer period of time.


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jan 2016)

" ... there is a very real difference in quality between jeans from Primark and Levis ..." - Bob

It shouldn't be an automatic supposition that because you pay a lot, the quality is better - I buy jeans from a cheap outlet for £15 for two pairs - they are way better made than the Levis 501s I was paying £50 a pair for thirty years ago.


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## Eric The Viking (5 Jan 2016)

I've only just caught up with this thread - fascinating in its entirety.

Flanjab, you deserve a lot of credit for doing this - it's brave to put your heart on your sleeve and it's great to read all the comments. I haven't pored over every post, but it certainly seems like everyone's trying to contribute in a positive way -- even if it's stuff one doesn't really want to hear!

I've tried to do small business myself in the past, but given up on the basis that I didn't have the energy for it (this turned out to have a medical reason, but that's an excuse!). It is really tough and all the advice given about perseverence, tenacity and becoming an expert at everything I'd echo. There are plenty of professionals who'll take your money for advice, and so on, but who aren't taking your risks and don't have your imperatives (such as your mortgage and family to support), and you simply have to DIY a lot of the business stuff as it's not cost-effective to pay someone else, at least in the early stages. 

There's an old saying:"In a goldrush, be the person selling the shovels." And it's true: they're the people who make the bulk of the money, because they meet a pressing need at the minimum risk for the greatest return. They were the bussiness analysts and accountants and business 'angels' of the Klondike.

Practical thing: the web site. Others have said it needs text. That's partially true. It needs search engine optimization (SEO), and good text is part of that. 

Whatever you do with the products, no matter how you sell them and to or through whom, that site needs to SELL for you. There are fundamentals in this:

1. It must have good, ongoing SEO. If people can't find the site they can't find you. Few users of Google search bother with any more than the second results page. Most only use the first five links Google throws at them. Being on page three is an exercise in futility, no matter how interesting the products are. More on SEO below...

2. It must have all your business details, not just for legality but to appear professional. People want to do business with you _in the way they want to_, which might be by phone or even letter/fax or visit, and commercial customers expect an established business (few will take a risk on something coming out of a garage, no matter how good the products).

3. SEO does two things: it lets you get found on the Web, and it pushes your web presence towards the market(s) you want to target. Both are necessary. But it's founded on solid product marketing beforehand. That means understanding the customer's needs/wants/preferences, and meeting them.

So what makes your concrete products so desirable? Why would someone want them over, say, a desk lamp or a clock from Ikea? "They're better than XXX because..." can be answered in a number of ways, including "My stuff is rare and special." 

The thing is, you have to decide what aspects of the product you want to push (and 'aspects' of you and your business too!). Those are the things you should be talking about on your site. If your business is designer/bespoke, people probably want to know as much about you as about the products - they're paying a premium to buy into your values, _to own a Flanjab lamp_ (or clock or whatever), rather than just people who like what you do.

They might be trying to furnish a house entirely in concrete products and thus have found you, or they might be looking for an interesting desk lamp or a clock. If you think the latter is more likely (personally, I do!), then that's how you angle your web site.

It's been mentioned earlier: Google gives a lot of help to webmasters wanting to SEO their sites. I heartily recommend both their _Webmaster Tools_ and _Google Analytics_, but take time also to read their suggestions. SEO is not complicated and there are no "black arts" to practice - just make the text concise and compelling, accurate and relevant. 

Make your site meta information agree with the site's content (don't put irrelevant or too-broad keywords in, hoping to cast your net wider), make the image _names_ agree with their content too. Also put your business details into Google Places (or its current equivalent), get a Facebook page for the business and products, put yourself on LinkedIn as the business owner and/or a concrete designer, and consider a carefully planned advertising/promotion campaign to get your products seen by the right people (journalists and style gurus, commercial buyers and retail customers).

Have a look at Drew Pritchard's web site, to see something that's really well focused on a well-understood demographic. It's the main sales tool for his business, and done very well. You don't have to like (or dislike) it, the point is _how_ it works as a sales tool.

In particular look at his Salford Racking products, which the company actually manufactures new. Consider the photography, the amount of text, what aspects of the product and company and product it's talking about, the page layout, and even the font he uses.

There's one absolutely key thing (and it's a big factor in what's made him successful): It's not "Old Reclaimed Stuff", it's "Drew Pritchard", i.e. personal. In large part, he's selling himself!

Note also that there's no mucking about: you get what you want in the right order - products to browse, then buying details and company information. I see you do that too, which is good.

Whatever you think of the man (personally, I find him hard to dislike), I'd guess there's a big overlap between his target market and yours. Is imitation the sincerest form of flattery?

E.


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## AJB Temple (5 Jan 2016)

To add a tangent on pricing. There is a shop in Camden (London) selling desk lamps with concrete bases, bent beechwood arms and a shade, LED spotlight fitted and a red flex. They are £32 in the sale, reduced from £55. I would post a picture here but they made a fuss when I tried to take a snap on my phone. The bases are available in off white, grey and black and it looks as if they have been polished as some aggregate shows through. They are made in London apparently by a guy who also moulds concrete garden furniture, statuary and so on. 

Incorporating your development costs, learning time and costs of failures into your current pricing is not a good idea. This is a sunk cost and you have to wave goodbye to it: treat it as a learning experience. Your price is determined by value perceived by your customers, and that depends on who they are and how you market to them. It may be a good idea to develop another product which is not so similar to work developed by others, as you will then more easily be seen as unique rather than a copyist / developer. 

You could develop some cash flow products at much lower price points - for example desk top furniture (pen holders, phone stand, whatever). Or kitchen knife blocks with a concrete base. 

There will be no volume market as anything you can mould someone else with more resources can mould cheaper. So creative design and more artisan products may serve you best. The references to brand are important - and at the moment you don't have one. We are on page 5 of this thread and I have commented a couple of times and can't be sure that I remember the name on your website. If pushed I would say it was concrete laboratories. You need to find something memorable. 

Find some shops that sell high end design at premium prices. I am a bug fan of Manufactum (now available on-line in the UK), who have a simply fantastic shop in Cologne and elsewhere. They sell everything at premium prices and are always looking for things that are "different" and ultra high quality. Seek out such retailers: they don't necessarily need to be in the UK.


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## Wizard9999 (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":10s765j5 said:


> Rhossydd":10s765j5 said:
> 
> 
> > flanajb":10s765j5 said:
> ...



Flanajb

If it is my post that raises this thought in your mind then I am sorry it has had that result. As I think I said elsewhere in the thread I very much admire your efforts. I agree with your comments that there is little very new in the world, I recall hearing reports of cases taken to court about songs where one composer claims ownership over a particular combination of notes which I find a bit odd. I still like the comment made by an old teacher of mine many, many years ago, he said "copying from one source is plagiarism, copying from more than one source is research" (I am sure it was not his original thought, but don't know who said it first). The vast majority of 'new' products are inevitably an evolution of previous products, consciously or sub-consciously drawing on other products. If you had simply bought one of the other lamps, disassembled it and then ruthlessly replicated it then I would find that problematic but that is not what you have done. My point was (as has already been said) that with the other lamp out there the market may not be what it would have been without it.

Terry.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

Wizard9999":2qdh9cmx said:


> If it is my post that raises this thought in your mind then I am sorry it has had that result. As I think I said elsewhere in the thread I very much admire your efforts. I agree with your comments that there is little very new in the world, I recall hearing reports of cases taken to court about songs where one composer claims ownership over a particular combination of notes which I find a bit odd. I still like the comment made by an old teacher of mine many, many years ago, he said "copying from one source is plagiarism, copying from more than one source is research" (I am sure it was not his original thought, but don't know who said it first). The vast majority of 'new' products are inevitably an evolution of previous products, consciously or sub-consciously drawing on other products. If you had simply bought one of the other lamps, disassembled it and then ruthlessly replicated it then I would find that problematic but that is not what you have done. My point was (as has already been said) that with the other lamp out there the market may not be what it would have been without it.
> 
> Terry.



Terry, Apologies if I insinuated it was you, but it was a pm I received.

I keep reading all of these posts and really appreciate the time and effort people have put into their responses. It has been an eye opener for me and whilst I have found some of it very disheartening to read, it has been a wake up call that the business is not a viable income generator. Especially, considering my monthly outgoings. At the moment all of the items I have made (pretty 2-3 of each product) have been made in my garage. If I then factor in the expense of renting a workshop, business insurance ... the whole model becomes even worse from a revenue generation perspective. Having my own business has always been a dream of mine, but I think I need to remove my rose tinted spectacles and realise that in reality it can be one big ball ache and I am not sure that is the road I want to venture down.

I have read many times, that people who earn a living in furniture making related occupations don't do it for the money, but for the love of making stuff. My motivation was/is to make ££ and be free from the corporate monotony and be in control of my own destiny. I now feel that there are simpler ways of achieving this, without having to venture down a concrete manufacturing business.

Thanks again.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

Eric The Viking":1bvwyalp said:


> There's an old saying:"In a goldrush, be the person selling the shovels." And it's true: they're the people who make the bulk of the money, because they meet a pressing need at the minimum risk for the greatest return. They were the bussiness analysts and accountants and business 'angels' of the Klondike.



I like that saying. One that I could learn a lot from!


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## Wizard9999 (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":32srifsz said:


> Eric The Viking":32srifsz said:
> 
> 
> > There's an old saying:"In a goldrush, be the person selling the shovels." And it's true: they're the people who make the bulk of the money, because they meet a pressing need at the minimum risk for the greatest return. They were the bussiness analysts and accountants and business 'angels' of the Klondike.
> ...



Flanajb

There may be something in this for you. You mentioned in one of your posts that some of the inspiration for this was the use of concrete technology more usual in the US and Australia, you used an acronym I was not familiar with but I assumed it was glass fibre reinforced concrete. I drew this conclusion based on havinf watched an episode of Grand Designs Australia where large panels of this were used in the construction, so maybe I am wrong. There have been many examples of people transferring an idea from one country to another and making a chunk of money, the most notable route being from the US to the UK. If you have invested the time to get to grips with how you can use a superior technology / product in a application where it has not been used before then maybe that is the USP you need to make a successful business, rather than looking at the product design.

You mentioned products for architects before and maybe there is something in this. Concrete is a popular product in many areas these days and if you are able to produce items with superior strength for example then maybe you can produce one-off bespoke items that need this extra strength? Instead of selling directly to end consumers your target market would be specifiers and architects. If you read magazines like Living Etc. for example you will often find homes where a clever designer has taken off the shelf kitchen carcasses / cabinets as a the base for a kitchen but used high end handles, worktops, etc. to given a much higher end look (I mention Living Etc. rather than some of the more high end magazines as they often feature aspiration all types who want the full look but can't afford to go to a top end provider for every aspect).

Anyway, sure you get the idea, but thought it worth mentioning.

Terry.


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## CHJ (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":2yb6e7lf said:


> [I keep reading all of these posts and really appreciate the time and effort people have put into their responses. It has been an eye opener for me and whilst I have found some of it very disheartening to read, it has been a wake up call that the business is not a viable income generator. Especially, considering my monthly outgoings. At the moment all of the items I have made (pretty 2-3 of each product) have been made in my garage. If I then factor in the expense of renting a workshop, business insurance ... the whole model becomes even worse from a revenue generation perspective. Having my own business has always been a dream of mine, but I think I need to remove my rose tinted spectacles and realise that in reality it can be one big ball ache and I am not sure that is the road I want to venture down.
> ..



One aspect you may not have factored into the equation of self employed viability with enough background information/knowledge is the financial accounting and tax, (both liabilities and allowances) I would suggest before you get too disheartened you seek some advice on this score and set yourself a timescale to research the 'Business' aspects in depth rather than the product production.

As a self employed individual with a good accountant advising what is legal on your profits and loss accounts it is not unknown to have a reasonable income and virtually no personal tax liability. 

A good accountant can save you many hours of heartache and 10 X + their fees in lost income.

Will you be operating totally 'on your own' or will your wife/partner/sibling be there to take on the 'office' duties whilst you concentrate on production? invariably self employment becomes a 24/7 commitment for the whole family, keeping the 'value added' within the family helps considerably in efficiency and moral support.

Personally I would say whatever you do, do not factor your family home into the financing of your enterprise.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

Wizard9999":27wl9vdv said:


> flanajb":27wl9vdv said:
> 
> 
> > Eric The Viking":27wl9vdv said:
> ...



I think you are correct there Terry. I feel as though that with clocks and lamps you are competing in a very tough market. A market where it is easy to have mass produced items shipped into the UK from Eastern Europe and the Far East. Trying to compete there is pointless. In fact, I will tell you that not long ago I saw that exact same lamp being advertised on Ali Express for $30 it was basically a company in China offering to make copied concrete lamps for nothing. All you had to do was to agree to buy 1000 of them in one go.

Taking the wall panels / custom sinks and other made to spec item idea, the above is not easily done. For one, volume and lead times will usually mean the item has to be made here in the UK. That is a better business to be in. Funny, but I have just demoulded the first 36" * 18" custom made wall tile that I am planning on using to tile a feature wall in the kitchen. The panels will be fixed to the wall with stainless steel bolts. Very industrial looking, but a different feature. I also agree that architects and specifiers are a better option as a customer as if you do a good job there is no reason why you will not end up with repeat business. Retail customers who buy a clock or lamp are probably only going to do it once.


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## BearTricks (5 Jan 2016)

I'll be completely honest. I hadn't seen the lamp you used as inspiration and I thought yours was a good design. If I did know of the prize winning one, then saw yours in a store I would automatically think that it was a knock off. 

I don't say that to insult you. I appreciate good design but unfortunately I can't always afford it so I do a lot if shopping at discount places like TK Maxx etc. Even in places like Next, John Lewis etc I will invariably spot products that clearly have taken design elements from more expensive brands. Occasionally I'll see a complete rip off. It always irks me because I imagine some executive sat in a board room trying to figure out how they can capitalise on someone else's idea.

I don't think it's plagiarism but it doesn't matter what someone on a forum who has read your process and understands it thinks. You yourself were the one who said the word first so you must have some fears about people misinterpreting your intentions. 

It's okay saying that you took the design and made it more minimalist, but the people who would buy the lamp to sell in stores like John Lewis will be aware of the original one, and the designers of the original lamp will invariably find out about it. It will be up to JL whether they want to risk selling something that could bring them legal issues and up to the aforementioned designers whether they have enough to bring a copyright lawsuit to you. As I said, at that point they won't care about any good intention you had. 

I think that the upside is that you can tweak the product further. If anything I think it could be more minimal. It won't take much to take it to a place that is more your own. You clearly understand the materials and techniques so use your knowledge to your advantage. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## Lons (5 Jan 2016)

phil.p":2z9w4i3n said:


> " ... there is a very real difference in quality between jeans from Primark and Levis ..." - Bob
> 
> It shouldn't be an automatic supposition that because you pay a lot, the quality is better - I buy jeans from a cheap outlet for £15 for two pairs - they are way better made than the Levis 501s I was paying £50 a pair for thirty years ago.


I wasn't trying to say there was Phil and in fact did suggest that I won't pay retail in the UK. But there is very definitely major quality difference between Primark and Levi.
It isn't just quality either. I bought cheaper end jeans from various places specifically for work and still wear then in my workshop. What is obvious is the difference in fit sometimes and I'm roughly standard size. The best I found was a range at £9.50 from an M&S factory outlet. 

I also said it was not a good example to compare with the OP products.

last time in the US enabled me to buy a dozen pairs of Wrangler / Levis for around £18 a pair so it's the market here which is being exploited, what I was trying to say I suppose it that they built that market over time and maintained it by target marketing and volume sales. The OP doesn't have that and his products are unlikely to achieve high volume but rather niche, high price and have to be presented correctly to have a chance.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

CHJ":17f9k6hm said:


> flanajb":17f9k6hm said:
> 
> 
> > [I keep reading all of these posts and really appreciate the time and effort people have put into their responses. It has been an eye opener for me and whilst I have found some of it very disheartening to read, it has been a wake up call that the business is not a viable income generator. Especially, considering my monthly outgoings. At the moment all of the items I have made (pretty 2-3 of each product) have been made in my garage. If I then factor in the expense of renting a workshop, business insurance ... the whole model becomes even worse from a revenue generation perspective. Having my own business has always been a dream of mine, but I think I need to remove my rose tinted spectacles and realise that in reality it can be one big ball ache and I am not sure that is the road I want to venture down.
> ...


 Thanks Chas. Plan was/is to create a limited company. It shields our personal assets. Have even looked into selling my personal tool collection to the wife (she is considerably under tax threshold with her part time job) and then leasing the machines to the ltd company for a monthly fee.


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## custard (5 Jan 2016)

BearTricks":29goub2d said:


> It's okay saying that you took the design and made it more minimalist, but the people who would buy the lamp to sell in stores like John Lewis will be aware of the original one, and the designers of the original lamp will invariably find out about it. It will be up to JL whether they want to risk selling something that could bring them legal issues and up to the aforementioned designers whether they have enough to bring a copyright lawsuit to you. As I said, at that point they won't care about any good intention you had.



Bear Tricks has nailed it.

It's a fair bet that any buyer for a large chain store will be aware of the originals, so they won't touch yours for fear of a "cease & desist" letter dropping on their door mat. You may think you've done enough to evolve the design, I'm no Intellectual Property lawyer but my guess is that you're not nearly far enough away to be in the clear. 

I've met a reasonable number of designers and they're all over the place when it comes to defending their copyrights. Some shrug their shoulders and say that's life, others are like rottweillers and seem to dedicate their lives to IP litigation. One thing's for sure though, if (and it's a mighty big if) you were ever to earn any real money then even the most laid back designer would sniff the cash and come after you. Do you really want to bet on a business that has minimal earnings prospects, but comes with a high chance of a ruinous lawsuit in the unlikely event that it _does_ succeed?


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## Wizard9999 (5 Jan 2016)

custard":39f0jool said:


> BearTricks":39f0jool said:
> 
> 
> > You may think you've done enough to evolve the design, I'm no Intellectual Property lawyer but my guess is that you're not nearly far enough away to be in the clear.



I think that is a good point Custard and while I think Flanajb is moving away from the idea of the lamps and clocks being the future for his business as this thread is getting pretty big it may be a useful point as the thread may get picked up in the future.

I am not a lawyer either, but if I understand these things correctly they way it is looked at is not in the round but rather more on a point by point basis. So in the context of music (where such cases have had a reasonable amount of publicity) two songs may not be similar, but if there is a passage of several notes that has appeared in a prior song then I think if there is money to be had then this gets picked up upon. So, if my understanding is correct despite the other changes you have listed previously it may be that you could be challenged because your lamp has bent plywood intersecting a round concrete base. Again, I realise your thinking has probably moved on, so I mention it more for future reference if this thread pops up.

Terry.


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## Wizard9999 (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":mp08lhta said:


> CHJ":mp08lhta said:
> 
> 
> > flanajb":mp08lhta said:
> ...



As said, good professional advice can more than pay for itself. I am not an accountant, but I do have a limited company so have some personal experience / benefit of advice from a good firm of accountants. Three things I would highlight.

1. The most basic benefit of having a limited company comes down to the fact that companies only pay tax on profit whereas individuals by and large pay tax on revenue (though they know this as gross earnings), so the costs of running a company are generally paid out of pre-tax income whereas the costs of being an individual are generally paid out of post-tax income.

2. Extract profit from a company has always been beneficial because you can use both salary and dividends. The usual way to do this was to pay a salary large enough to get NI credit but small enough that no NI or income tax needs to be paid, then pay the balance in dividend which (taking account of the associated tax credit) meant no additional income tax to be paid y the person receiving the dividend. If you have a spouse with an income below the upper tax band then you could balance the share holdings so they also topped up their income to the upper tax threshold with no additional tax to pay - in technical terms this is called 'income shifting' and has been tested in court and ruled completely legal.
But, the government has now said too many people are incorporating in order to take advantage of this benefit (I will not bore with a one man debate on whether this is reasonable or not). The result is that from April the old tax credit system will fall away and a new tax rate of 7% on dividends will apply above a threshold level, which if I recall correctly is £5k (and remember your company will already have paid corporation tax of 20% on its profits). So the old benefits of using dividends ilo salary will not be as good as they have been in the past.

3. Anything funky, like selling items to your wife and leasing them back may fall foul of the relatively new general anti-avoidance rules. If there is not a clearly defendable business reason for doing this and the only benefit is a tax one chances are it will be deemed tax evasion these days. I know this as I have tested some rather esoteric legal structures I have thought about with my accountant and they have been quick to warn of this issue.

I am not an accountant or tax adviser, this is not advice, rules change over time, you need to get professional advice specific to your situation, etc., etc.

Terry.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

The irony of all of this is the comment below from the web page detailing the "Benjamin Hubert Desk Lamp"

http://www.dezeen.com/2009/09/21/heavy-desk-light-by-benjamin-hubert-for-decode/

*"I commend the designer on his prolific output for the London Design Festival. However, it seems these and the lampshades are somewhat lacking in original content. As pointed out above, these have a 'very similar spirit to desklamp by Ilse Crawford' . I question whether this is spirit or more-so that these, the lampshades and the chair are derivative of other projects. The over-riding feature of all 3 pieces is that the designer is driven by an application of current and borrowed styles rather than experimenting and finding their own feet. I commend the output but these projects feel like they came from a mood board of other projects published in the last 18 months."*


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## CHJ (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":2dco5g2r said:


> Thanks Chas. Plan was/is to create a limited company. It shields our personal assets. Have even looked into selling my personal tool collection to the wife (she is considerably under tax threshold with her part time job) and then leasing the machines to the ltd company for a monthly fee.


Machines are assets with a depreciation factor to be set against taxable profits, avoid 'clever' avoidance tricks, there are a host of legitimate 'costs' to claim, wife can be paid an income as long as you can justify her time commitment *if challenged*, log her hours against paperwork/transport time/supplies sourcing/product research just keep it believable, don't claim 10 hrs a week on the road or excessive vehicle maintenance and only put £5.00 worth of fuel in the car a week and no parking fees, finite details are rarely needed or indeed achievable. 
Just be aware that if she does not currently have to do a self assessment she, (or your accountant on her behalf) will need to do so in future.

Again a good accountant earning respect and fees should provide feedback on stuff you've missed.

*Edit:- above better put by Terry a couple of posts ago whilst I was procrastinating.*

On the plagiarism aspects, all manufactures and designers study their rivals products, you see all sorts of things from cars/washing machines/printers/machine tools/weapons/TV's/engines from rival producers hidden in the back of test/research labs. They will tell you they are protecting their patents or design copyright, but they don't exactly ignore innovations if they can benefit.

What they don't do is tell the world that they have studied a rivals product and using it as a design aid are producing a better version of their own.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

You lot may think I am nuts, but I decided the best way to see whether as copyright is being infringed is by emailing photos of my lamp to the company making 'The Lamp' telling them I have a revised and better version!

If there is an issue, I am sure I'll get a solicitors letter.


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## Roughcut (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":asny4s9h said:


> Thanks Chas. Plan was/is to create a limited company. It shields our personal assets.  Have even looked into selling my personal tool collection to the wife (she is considerably under tax threshold with her part time job) and then leasing the machines to the ltd company for a monthly fee.



Hmm I would advise taking some professional accountancy advice on that one, and/or a phone call to HMRC.
Because I'm fairly sure going down that road would be frowned upon.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

Roughcut":2cdv6fn7 said:


> flanajb":2cdv6fn7 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Chas. Plan was/is to create a limited company. It shields our personal assets.  Have even looked into selling my personal tool collection to the wife (she is considerably under tax threshold with her part time job) and then leasing the machines to the ltd company for a monthly fee.
> ...



If that one is frowned upon, I am sure I can sell my tools / machinery to the business OR at least offset an allowance for their use.


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## Cordy (5 Jan 2016)

Not read all the posts on here; 7 pages now :| but forming a ltd company and not a bean sold........ hmmm
Been self employed since 1967 btw

It's quite easy to do my own tax returns -- not had an accountant for years


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## MIGNAL (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":344r5h4f said:


> You lot may think I am nuts, but I decided the best way to see whether as copyright is being infringed is by emailing photos of my lamp to the company making 'The Lamp' telling them I have a revised and better version!
> 
> If there is an issue, I am sure I'll get a solicitors letter.



That may tell you if they aren't interested. It won't tell you if it's an actual violation of copyright. Surely that would have to be decided in court, even if you do receive a solicitors letter.


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## Mr_P (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":35w5nwf2 said:


> You lot may think I am nuts, but I decided the best way to see whether as copyright is being infringed is by emailing photos of my lamp to the company making 'The Lamp' telling them I have a revised and better version!
> 
> If there is an issue, I am sure I'll get a solicitors letter.



Not nuts, just incredibly naive on far too many aspects of running a business.


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## Inoffthered (5 Jan 2016)

oduction.
As a self employed individual with a good accountant advising what is legal on your profits and loss accounts it is not unknown to have a reasonable income and virtually no personal tax liability.
A good accountant can save you many hours of heartache and 10 X + their fees in lost income.
Three things I would highlight.
1. The most basic benefit of having a limited company comes down to the fact that companies only pay tax on profit whereas individuals by and large pay tax on revenue (though they know this as gross earnings) said:


> 1. Absolutely not true! A sole trader/partnership pays tax only on profits NOT on gross earnings. The reason limited companies are attractive vehicles to run a business (apart from the benefits of limited liability) is that corporate taxes are taxed at 20% whereas profits in the hands of a sole trader or partner are taxed in accordance with the personal bandings.
> 
> Profits for tax purposes start with the profit shown by the accounts and are then adjusted for disallowable items such as depreciation, entertaining which are added back to profits. Taxable profits are then reduced by any capital allowances/Investment allowances that may be be available.
> 
> ...


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## Sheffield Tony (5 Jan 2016)

Quick point of order, copyright does not apply to 3D designs. Design rights are the thing to look at. They are not such strong protection as either patent or copyright, and vary by country.


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## Mr_P (5 Jan 2016)

http://www.furniturenews.net/resources/ ... ng-designs



> We have never come across a case of design copying where the drawings or design documents were used to create a competing product. *In every case the infringer takes the finished product and copies it, perhaps in the process trying to make sufficient changes to it to argue that it has created a different product*. It seems odd, therefore, that the criminal offence of copyright infringement is committed in unrealistic circumstances, whilst the true harm is not criminalised.
> 
> Whilst we welcome the criminalisation of registered design infringement, the vast majority of new furniture is not registered and is thus protected only by unregistered design right, and not protected by the criminal laws at all. Flagrantly infringing a creation protected by copyright or trade mark law in full knowledge of the infringement constituted a criminal offence punishable, in theory at least, with a prison sentence of 10 years. However, copying a design was something that only the civil courts could deal with.


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## doctor Bob (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":1b0qoz9w said:


> Plan was/is to create a limited company. It shields our personal assets. Have even looked into selling my personal tool collection to the wife (she is considerably under tax threshold with her part time job) and then leasing the machines to the ltd company for a monthly fee.



I'd be looking at selling something before I even worried about Ltd or sole trader.

Concentrate all your efforts on selling to get some income before doing anything else. The rest will fall into place as you go along. No sales = no business.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

Tail between legs. Have decided it's way too much ball ache to carry on with this. I might dabble, but on the side.

The copyright thing is just another nail in the coffin for me. 

IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)


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## Lons (5 Jan 2016)

That is completely wrong Terry, I can see why you need to employ an accountant. :wink: 

The calculations are pretty simple and it's nett profit after allowable expenses and deductions that is added to your earnings as income. There is also a threshold where you need to pay class 4 NICs on top of the mandatory class 2 contributions.
I retired a few months ago after 18 years as a sole trader and trust me, it ain't rocket science.

Bob


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## MIGNAL (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":8d3kma9z said:


> Tail between legs. Have decided it's way too much ball ache to carry on with this. I might dabble, but on the side.
> 
> The copyright thing is just another nail in the coffin for me.
> 
> *IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle.* Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)



Concrete clock making at - £200 per day or IT at + £500 per day. 
Tough choice. :shock:


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## Lons (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":1tnqywfa said:


> IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)



Probably more than you'd make in a week so calculate how many days you need to work to pay the bills and plenty time over to be creative.

You would still need to sort out your accounts / tax presumably as self employed if contracting and could run your concrete products as a separate business which would let you offset your expenses and costs. You can also claim a % of overhead working from home and could write off / down your tools and get a % of your vehicle costs as well.


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## MattR (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":2vtt4smc said:


> Tail between legs. Have decided it's way too much ball ache to carry on with this. I might dabble, but on the side.
> 
> The copyright thing is just another nail in the coffin for me.
> 
> IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)



Seems like there must be a compromise in there. Can you not work 8 - 9 months of the year (I know a lot depends on contracts), and save enough to have 3 months off making clocks / designing / whatever? ?


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## Mr_P (5 Jan 2016)

Well you can't say you didn't try

:roll: :roll: :roll: 


> The Concrete Lab
> 
> 
> 30 December 2015 at 12:34 ·
> ...



Not exactly a great time to launch on the 30th and its not been a week yet. You've done the work just needs a bit more. Re-design products and website and a bit of marketing. Next step is probably working on the bank balance though so part time consultancy for you, as Doctor Bob said 4 months will fly.

Must admit I wouldn't be pratting about with my idea if I thought I could earn that kind of money.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

As already eluded too on here. If circumstances were different and money was not an issue then I'd still be tempted to get cracking. I'd rent a unit, buy the large 3 phase compressor that I need for spraying GFRC and branch into other areas. I'd also be tempted to purchase a cnc router too. All of this costs money and at present I don't feel comfortable shelling out on a wim.

If I can secure a contract then I can always run the two ventures through the same ltd company. An Accountant will be best placed to work out what's the best option.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

Mr_P":3hl8dicg said:


> Well you can't say you didn't try
> 
> :roll: :roll: :roll:
> 
> ...



I agree that it is all a bit of a joke. Deep down I think I knew it was a pipe dream and unrealistic. I just didn't think too hard about it. As soon as New Year came and everyone went back to work I seemed to have a bit of a 'oh pipper' moment. This thread and all the replies just reinforced that conclusion. 

I enjoy making stuff and being creative, but that's totally different to busting uour balls day in day out making creative items only to sell them for a few quid. No thanks.


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## mind_the_goat (5 Jan 2016)

https://oami.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/de ... pean-union

Looks like an unregistered design has 3 years of 'protection'. Registration can extend that for some time but I think enforcement of that on something only 'based' on the original would be pretty hard. Apple failed to protect the iphone design. 
I did do a quick search in the design database for "Desk Lamp" with the designers name and didn't find anything.


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## profchris (5 Jan 2016)

This thread has been an interesting read, but has veered off into how to run a business. I think its main purpose has been to convince flanajb that there is, currently at least, no potential business here. The reason for that is that the numbers don't stack up. Assume that these £200 clocks sell direct to the public, and that the profit on each is £100 (the best case I'd say), then he'd need to make and sell 300 a year to achieve his £30k income target. That doesn't seem achievable to me, or him.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is the full range of the market, as this might help show if there is a way to make a viable business. As an example, I make ukuleles for fun, but I also play them so I know what they cost.

At the bottom end of the market a Chinese factory-made uke for £50-100 is perfectly playable and sounds OK. At £300-£600 you get a very nicely-made uke, from decent woods and with a fair amount of hand work involved, and paying more won't get you an appreciably better playing or sounding instrument. At this level you can get a plain instrument from a single craftsman as well. From £1k to £5k you're getting beautiful woods, individual craftsmanship and a high level of decoration.

If I persuade myself that my ukes might sell in that £300-£600 range I can see that I'd need to make and sell between 2 and 4 a week to achieve £30k. Making them by hand, as I do, takes about 40 hours. There aren't enough hours!

So if I wanted to give up the day job I'd need to take one of two routes (assuming I could sell all I made, which is an unlikely assumption!):

1. Change my production methods (standardise designs, plenty of jigs, more power tools) to achieve the numbers needed at the current price level, or

2. Achieve a high enough price so I can carry on building in the way I want. I could make maybe 40 instruments a year (allowing time for marketing, bookkeeping, website building etc), so I'd have to sell each one for around £1,500 assuming a 50% margin. But that puts me into the custom builder market, which requires decoration etc, so I probably need double the build time and thus to produce 20 instruments at £3k.

These are just back of the envelope numbers, but they show me that what I currently do for fun is not viable as a business. There are two potentially viable models, if I can sell my output, and each requires a different approach. If I chose number 2 I'd clearly need to spend some time building at this new level and establishing a reputation for doing so which would enable me to sell that those prices.

Back to flanajb, it's become clear that his equivalent of option 1 won't work. But, is there an equivalent of option 2, lamps and clocks selling for £1k or more? If so, that might be worth investing some time and effort into, while consulting part-time, but it would take a few years to achieve if it exists.


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## Mr_P (5 Jan 2016)

mind_the_goat":2ftotqbo said:


> https://oami.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/designs-in-the-european-union
> 
> Looks like an unregistered design has 3 years of 'protection'. Registration can extend that for some time but I think enforcement of that on something only 'based' on the original would be pretty hard. Apple failed to protect the iphone design.
> I did do a quick search in the design database for "Desk Lamp" with the designers name and didn't find anything.



This Uk Gov site says 10 years after first sale.

https://www.gov.uk/design-right

It does mention EU at 3 years.

Edit some hope here


> Licence of right
> 
> You can allow someone else to use your design by selling or giving them ‘licence of right’.
> 
> ...



Depends on how much for a license ??


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## doctor Bob (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":sziyimpb said:


> Ideally, I do not want to have to return to being an IT programmer and in all honesty I am not sure I would even get a job. The industry has changed and I was in a job where I was valued for my experience of the system rather than my development skills.






flanajb":sziyimpb said:


> IT contracting at £500 / £600 a day seems like less of a hassle. Shame, as I enjoy being creative (copying) ;-)




Is it that easy?


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## Wizard9999 (5 Jan 2016)

Inoffthered":2otejzag said:


> oduction.
> As a self employed individual with a good accountant advising what is legal on your profits and loss accounts it is not unknown to have a reasonable income and virtually no personal tax liability.
> A good accountant can save you many hours of heartache and 10 X + their fees in lost income.
> Three things I would highlight.
> ...


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## Wizard9999 (5 Jan 2016)

Lons":22vh4h0j said:


> That is completely wrong Terry, I can see why you need to employ an accountant. :wink:
> 
> The calculations are pretty simple and it's nett profit after allowable expenses and deductions that is added to your earnings as income. There is also a threshold where you need to pay class 4 NICs on top of the mandatory class 2 contributions.
> I retired a few months ago after 18 years as a sole trader and trust me, it ain't rocket science.
> ...



Bob

As I said above I have never been involved in sole trading, so I have nothing to offer on this topic, apologies if my post gave the impression this is what I was referring to rather than PAYE.

Whilst your accounts may have been straight forward enough for you to do I can assure you mine are not, that may be because my business is more complex than yours was or my accounting knowledge is less than yours :wink: . However, given my accountant's annual costs are less than a day's profit I don't consider it a big issue.

Terry.


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

doctor Bob":u512iuqr said:


> flanajb":u512iuqr said:
> 
> 
> > Ideally, I do not want to have to return to being an IT programmer and in all honesty I am not sure I would even get a job. The industry has changed and I was in a job where I was valued for my experience of the system rather than my development skills.
> ...



If I get my head down and back into my books then, yes it's very viable.


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## Mark-numbers (5 Jan 2016)

Can you make anything in Concrete? Ie worktops etc?


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## flanajb (5 Jan 2016)

Mark-numbers":wrlakr4v said:


> Can you make anything in Concrete? Ie worktops etc?


If you are asking me whether I can make concrete worktops. Then, I'd have to say that I am not really setup for making worktops. 

If you are asking me whether you can make worktops out of concrete, then the answer is yes. Just Google Concrete Countertops. You'll find plenty of places making them.


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## Lons (5 Jan 2016)

Wizard9999":1xkhk7ly said:


> As I said above I have never been involved in sole trading, so I have nothing to offer on this topic, apologies if my post gave the impression this is what I was referring to rather than PAYE.
> 
> Whilst your accounts may have been straight forward enough for you to do I can assure you mine are not, that may be because my business is more complex than yours was or my accounting knowledge is less than yours :wink: . However, given my accountant's annual costs are less than a day's profit I don't consider it a big issue.
> 
> Terry.



I wasn't trying to have a go at you Terry just responding to your statement as being wrong. 
A sole trader is regarded as an individual for tax purposes and therefore his earnings as that individual consist of any salary / drawings from his business/s plus any nett profits or loss and as I said not difficult just time consuming.

I agree wholeheartedly that employing an accountant can easily more than repay itself but in my case with a good grasp and experience in I.T. and many years managing business for other people I chose to do it myself as I didn't find it a chore. I'm lucky enough to be comfortable with accounts and tax disciplines and my varied construction business was complex enough btw which at one stage with a second venture plus part time lecturer got a bit "busy" :lol: I didn't have a holiday for the first 10 years so I guess my family would say I was wrong but most of that was because I just wanted to do it!

In my case, the mortgage had been paid, kids left home and the missus working so I didn't need to make huge amounts while building the business which is a completely different scenario to the one flanajb faces.

regards
Bob


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## Inoffthered (5 Jan 2016)

flanajb":1mcxo14n said:


> I enjoy making stuff and being creative, but that's totally different to busting uour balls day in day out making creative items only to sell them for a few quid. No thanks.



Don't give up, just moderate your plans.
Trying to build a business from a zero base to £30k in a few months was always going to be a big ask and probably unachievable. If you enjoy making stuff then why not use your "day job" to pay the bills and look to develop your concrete business in slower time. 

Without the pressure of having to sell something to pay the bills, any pitch you make to a potential buyer will be more relaxed. Make a range of samples and go and see an interior designer and show them your products and explain how you can personalise the products to suit their needs. See how they react and adapt your next pitch based on the feedback. 

Spend a bit of time to give your website a look consistent with a premium product. There are many inexpensive ways of driving traffic to your website.

Think of a way of marketing your product to differentiate it from Chinese tat. If someone is buying a lamp on price alone they should not be your target market. Don't be defensive about your selling price just develop an explanation to justify it.

Don't be put off by the doom merchants that can think of a hundred reasons not to do something e.g. potential design problems etc . Unless you directly crib a unique design the chances of getting into a legal ruck are remote.

Don't kill your dream, still go for it but perhaps not in a s*** or bust way.


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## Mark-numbers (5 Jan 2016)

I was going to make a point that Concrete worktops and the likes of are now in vogue within the Restaurant trade and in many respects for kitchen surfaces.

I started my business 4 years ago, I started in the domestic domain and it didn't work for me, I now solely do commercial work and its going well..................If you could do concrete worktops I know for an absolute fact that there is a requirement for makers of such things. 

The guys that I know who have started and stayed in the domestic market remortgaged their houses just to pay for marketing and set up.........It does require heavy investment.

On the other hand if you could go commercial its far cheaper and easier to make phone calls to interior designers etc to introduce yourself and products.

Just my 2 pennies worth.


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## rafezetter (5 Jan 2016)

Without wading through 8 pages of replies here's my few thoughts; the prices are too high for what they are in all fairness, though they are well made and finished with obviously good moulds made and used, with good processing techniques to remove air voids etc it's still _just_ concrete, as has been said there seems no variation on the basic design compared to a plastic clock, and if put side by side with one, little to show it's actually concrete for those looking at it away from the website.

One of the biggest reasons why concrete items have become increasingly popular is because they are polished and because they are made from concrete with aggregate, have the stone component visible with all the variations of that with glass additions and all manner of other quirks that are visible, thus giving you a terrazo effect, while yours are just plain grey.

Now obviously having them polished will add cost and time, but it is doable on a home scale with the right items.

The clock faces themselves apart from the slightly raised sections have no obvious marker for the hours. Now I can understand that for some this is desirable for a "minimalist" effect, but for some customers especially those older people who would pay the price of such an item, poor eyesight in low light conditions is a consideration, while I know most people can tell the approximate time without them, adding things as markers in the mould isn't a difficult endeavor - semi precious stones, shells, small fossils like ammonites, glass hearts for the ladies - maybe with different coloured ones for the quarters would all both add interest and make it easier to see, all of which can be bought in bulk from ebay for very little money.

The desk lamp, while also very well made is just downright overpriced for all but the chelsea / knightbridge set, and I'm not saying that to be cheap, far from it - my personal family background is one of moderate wealth, but it is still _just_ a desklamp, that no-one I know would pay for, and also having spent some time in a salvage / upcycled / repurposed furniture quirky items shop with designer prices, has taught me that some things, no matter how inventive or unique simply don't sell above a certain price point, regardless of the effort involved, because people simply do not care how long it took to make. I'm also a bit diasappointed that you have chosen to show the cord, although maybe considered a feature in red, it shouts out against the "minimalist" lines of the whole. If it were I I would make the arms in 2 halves with a channel for the cord routed out before gluing those 2 together, but that's just me. Instead of having a clunky (plastic - for £350 REALLY??) clicker maybe look into having a touch stud in the base for on and off?

I'm sure you have spent the time looking at the plethora of desk lamps available around the same price points as comparison, but a quick look myself has shown for the same pricer range you can buy beautiful antiques, old industrial ones or ones with more features.

I'm no expert but I'd imagine that many startups make barely more than minimum wage (if that) until established, it seems like you are expecting far more from this initial period than is warranted.

For the selling side of things I'd echo contacting boutiques and companies that deal in the refurbished antique / homecrafted items market. As has also been said a smaller margin of profit in the hand is far better than the much bigger forcasted one - something echoed by every single one of the dragons from dragons den. While many places like "not on the high street" and etsy have high priced items, what they don't show is volume of sales at that price point.

I'm really not trying to be negative but give you my honest thoughts to add to all the others, the more feedback you have the more you are informed.

oh, as an afterthought - as you have the moulds have you considered using casting resin with inclusions?


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## Eric The Viking (5 Jan 2016)

I had an idea recently I was hoping to patent, with a view to doing enough development on it to have something worth selling on, to be worked up into a commercial product by someone else.

These guys have strong views about patents - not very complimentary. I'd heartily recommend their book to anyone else thinking about work in that area. Design Right seems to be the more sensible way to go, not least because (a) it costs a lot less than a patent, (b) Trading Standards will act to prevent/remove knock-offs on sale to the public (they are not interested in patent infringements), (c) to sue an infringer is relatively easy, to defend a patent will bankrupt you.

Flanjab, if you can find a commercial partner, you might have a future business as a 'design house'. 

After all, you _have_ worked these products up into saleable items, you understand concrete technology and have debugged the chemistry/production materials to the extent you have a 'recipe' that works. It's just your cost of production and overheads that make artisan production impractical.

An other attractive possibility has also been discussed: using your expertise in the material as a consultancy/specialist build service. I can imagine there are many things that you could make with the material that would be hard to do or expensive in other ways, for example, reproduction leadwork for buildings (if you can cast detail), many sorts of kitchen appliance/fittings, and so on.

Reappraise, pay the bills by contracting, but don't let the spark go out.

E.

PS: There's a supplement to their book that's all about the issues with patenting. It's available from their site for free download. The book itself, A Better Mousetrap, could be a blueprint for what you want to do - I think it's really useful.


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## Rhossydd (5 Jan 2016)

rafezetter":xu6k2mi2 said:


> Without wading through 8 pages of replies here's my few thoughts;


Maybe you should have the courtesy to read through it. Then you would not needlessly duplicate other people's comments and would be aware of the OP's response to them.


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## shed9 (5 Jan 2016)

I don't want to put a damper on this topic however I would point out that this thread has the potential of becoming linked to the end product in question via future Internet searches. Whilst not necessarily a bad thing it could colour the product to some degree; good or bad but it should maybe be taken into account by the OP.


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## rafezetter (6 Jan 2016)

Rhossydd":12emvuep said:


> rafezetter":12emvuep said:
> 
> 
> > Without wading through 8 pages of replies here's my few thoughts;
> ...



Ahh but the more times the same "advice" is provided the more weight there is to what is being said instead of just seen as one persons isolated opinion, and I'm pretty sure I did say that at the end, if YOU had the courtesy of reading all of MY reply, that I took the time to write for the OP's benefit instead of just cutting out the first few lines to score points. Whatever you may personally feel about this or any other of my replies in the forum Rhossydd; I took the time to write my views in a constructive manner, however right or wrong YOU may perceive them, and many would agree that _all_ feedback and opinions are good to receive, even if they are to be discarded later.

And by the way Rhossydd - I read 3 of the 8 pages which by that time I'd read enough to see what was being said, and I'm also pretty certain that 90% of the replies I've seen over the last few years posted to threads of longer than a few pages can also be guilty of reading a handful and replying without reading the entire lot; I don't remember "YOU MUST READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE REPLYING" as being one of the forums rules, so get over yourself.

And you have the barefaced to lecture ME on courtesy and do it publicly no less.


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## mumble (6 Jan 2016)

I haven't read all the way through this thread so if it has already been mentioned I apologise. but have you thought of advertising your products in something like Construction News or attending a Civil Engineering trade show?


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## No skills (6 Jan 2016)

Try to get some product placement with TV, a few samples sent out might get a couple of seconds airtime somewhere.
How about Houzz? Can you advertise through there, might get closer to your target market.


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## flanajb (6 Jan 2016)

I think this thread has run it's course now. But before I just wanted to answer the points that people made about the concrete bases looking plastic. Apologies for that, it was just poor photos. I have taken revised images and as you can see, they look far from plastic


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## bugbear (6 Jan 2016)

flanajb":1335c4bz said:


> I think this thread has run it's course now. But before I just wanted to answer the points that people made about the concrete bases looking plastic. Apologies for that, it was just poor photos. I have taken revised images and as you can see, they look far from plastic



I don't think they look "concrete" enough.

Here's a company doing architectural stuff (baths, etc, at high prices, called "concreations").

Many of their options are very concrete-y.






Here's their palette page:
http://www.concreations.co.uk/colours.htm

BugBear


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## Rhossydd (6 Jan 2016)

bugbear":u6wshucc said:


> I don't think they look "concrete" enough.


I agree, they could be plastic or Corian.


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## flanajb (6 Jan 2016)

bugbear":36ul57e3 said:


> flanajb":36ul57e3 said:
> 
> 
> > I think this thread has run it's course now. But before I just wanted to answer the points that people made about the concrete bases looking plastic. Apologies for that, it was just poor photos. I have taken revised images and as you can see, they look far from plastic
> ...



GFRC is a fine sand / cement mix. You cannot use aggregate, so that look is out of the question. GFRC enables you to cast thin sections ~ 10mm. The strength comes from the fact that you use alkali resistant glass fibre in the mix. Even if you did use aggregate in the mix, you'd have to diamond grind the faces. I can see that could be possible on large flat surfaces, but on the curved faces would not.


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## shed9 (6 Jan 2016)

flanajb":4sbdvmy1 said:


> I think this thread has run it's course now. But before I just wanted to answer the points that people made about the concrete bases looking plastic. Apologies for that, it was just poor photos. I have taken revised images and as you can see, they look far from plastic



Contact your local college / University, they will have contacts who take product shots for the students at reasonable rates and will likely do you a similar deal. It works out typically around £30 per shot on average and really is the difference between night and day in portraying your product images. I know a few people who have done this quite successfully with web shops.


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## flanajb (6 Jan 2016)

bugbear":1y2m11ak said:


> flanajb":1y2m11ak said:
> 
> 
> > I think this thread has run it's course now. But before I just wanted to answer the points that people made about the concrete bases looking plastic. Apologies for that, it was just poor photos. I have taken revised images and as you can see, they look far from plastic
> ...



They do make some very nice stuff. They use concrete as opposed to GFRC

This is a very nice sink.


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## MIGNAL (6 Jan 2016)

Bling! Could go out of fashion in a couple of years. To be honest I think I prefer the more subtle flanajb concrete but perhaps that's just me. I can understand why the bling concrete might give someone a feeling of added value though.


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## Jacob (6 Jan 2016)

howser":2yq4sihg said:


> ....
> 4. I googled conrete lamps, concrete clocks, conrete labs, the concrete labs, even googling "theconcretelab" gave me no results for your website in google. I......


There's a simple reason for this; very little text. Search engines search for text. You need to write an extended essay on your products and burble on constructively around the whole topic with lots of links and information. As much info as you can find on decorative use of concrete - terrazzo and the history thereof and so on. Plus useful stuff - DIY projects?
A website needs to be a resource in its own right, to attract the general reader and establish yourself as knowledgable and competent. It's not like a shop - you want 1000s of visitors (doesn't cost you anything they don't take up shop space) but only a few actually buying.


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## Sheffield Tony (6 Jan 2016)

I quite like the concrete bling. Prefer it to the dull grey industrial look. Might need more than standard kitchen carcasses to support that sink though, I suspect.


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## RobO (6 Jan 2016)

This is a really interesting thread, and some excellent advise has already been given. I would just like to add, even if you don’t think you will be continuing with this as a business, it’s worth keeping your website online if there's a possibility that you may have a go again in the future. Google doesn’t like new sites. In my experience it takes at least 6 - 12 months to get a site ranking in Google for significant keywords. (Google Sandbox Effect). I would also reiterate the advise given by Jacob above regarding the website content.

Cheers
Rob


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## beech1948 (6 Jan 2016)

flanajab,

A couple of odd thoughts and just to complete the cycle you have sent my brain on.

a) You can be both employed in a permasnent role and also at the same time be registered with HMRC as self employed so you could continue to explore whilst working.

b) You could also be employed and run a Ltd company.

c) Of the twom options the first is easiest the second a bit more complex and must have an accountant to verify the Co accounts.

The cycle you have started is that I have for some time been thinking about wall art or wall plaques as a business idea. The idea came from a trip to Chester and a visit to an art gallery where I saw a 5ft square painting which consisted of a frame, a painted background and some small ceramic shapes added as the main art form. The ceramic shapes were fairly brilliant colours and looked a bit like a peacocks tail. The whole combo of paint, ceramic and frame was quite startling and then really attractive. Sadley at £2995 it was outside my budget by quite a bit. BUT..................

I started to think...wooden panels, wooden panels and movements, ceramic shapes within wooden panels, ceramic panels with bits of wood.

Panels with say a moving mocking bird shape..saw a reference to an american plan yesterday...UMM?.

Could this possibly be a way forward for you. Maybe larger panel clocks..UMM??

Good luck


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## marcros (6 Jan 2016)

c) is not entirely correct- you do not need to have an accountant, but this is dependent on company size. there are exemptions for small companies.


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## BearTricks (6 Jan 2016)

What I'm taking away from this is that maybe doing something along the lines of how many woodworkers supplement their fine furniture work with kitchen fitting etc. Perhaps the lamps and clocks could be an aspect of the business but if you could figure out a way to incorporate the concrete in to larger projects such as worktops then you might have an earner on your hands. 

I also prefer the slicker more minimal concrete with nothing added to it. It'll stand the test of time. I see glittery worktops from the 90s occasionally and they probably looked great (somehow) at the time but now they look like cheap tat. 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## wills-mill (6 Jan 2016)

(I apologise if this has been mentioned elsewhere)

Have you thought of the impact of making the product physically more meaty? They are smashing looking things but if someone says concrete, then I want to see a desk lamp that threatens to destroy toes and crush desks! 

One of the things I've found with timber products is a scale/price conundrum. Someone earlier mentioned the labour and component count put in to a green Ash footstool as an example- If you have a product that someone can tuck daintily into a carrier bag, they often want to only pay a high street price. There is often the issue that there is as much work in a small object as a large version of the same, with only a minimal difference in raw material cost. In fact, it's often the case that a small object is harder to make, as it's a fiddle to manipulate and has to finished to a more critical level of detail. Often the 'wow' factor and heft of a large object gives people the psychological confidence to pay a 'bespoke' price, it also helps that it's a talking/ gloating point over the cheese and wine at a party. You are selling an experience as much as a practical item....

My favourite moan about scale price is that your average furniture firm may have a range of Oak coffee tables. The 3ft will be £149, the 4ft £249, the 5ft £349. Why? because people are happy to pay more for more. The extra timber, finishing, transport, handling are fairly negligible, but retail confidence is another thing entirely.

http://www.johnlewis.com/browse/home-ga ... ps/_/N-cjt
http://www.johnlewis.com/browse/home-ga ... mps_010815
I don't think your prices are too much, perhaps compared to Ikea, but that is not you. John Lewis have a £2,400 anglepoise lamp for Gods sake!
I'm impressed with what can be done with the fibre reinforcement, but I feel that you could definitely use the wonder of the 'crete to create some bulk, not more minimalism?


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## davin (6 Jan 2016)

"One of the things I've found with timber products is a scale/price conundrum"

I agree, I tried making children's furniture, Brightly coloured modern looking. Everyone loved it. Except I soon realised that it takes just as much time to make a small chair as it does to make a big chair. Still lurking in the back of my mind though. The furniture I made (like the lamp) would be another product that ideally could be outsourced to a small batch factory, Poland, Lithuania maybe?

Ps you bought a woodburner from me earlier in the year, Hope its puffing away ok. I have only had mine lit about 4 times so far this year!


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## wills-mill (6 Jan 2016)

Howdy Mr Woodburner! No, it's sat in the corner till a couple more structural jobs are finished in the workshop....

Luckily it's been quite tropical!


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## mind_the_goat (7 Jan 2016)

Etsy offering 'mentoring' for would be sellers:

https://www.etsy.com/resolution?geo...tm_source=UKBlog&utm_campaign=Etsy_Resolution


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