# GOING IT ALONE!!



## mike-reid (12 Jul 2010)

hi everyone

If you have read my post ''Are there any jobs out there?'' you will have gathered that I am gonna go self employed and be my own boss.

This decision has come about because of the encouragement from all of you folks on here, in the HOPE that there will be enough demand for the services on offer. This thread is going to be the blog of it, and will have details on what i have done so far, what i plan to do and how it has turned out.

I hope you like it and if you feel like giving me some constructive criticism or wise advice, please do so. if you think im about to drop a rite clanger, throw in the anchors to stop me!

So, today I have designed the poster/ flyer to start advertising from this weekend. on sunday i am going to a carboot to have a stall with posters and flyers on it to try to drum up a load of quotes to kick things off!!

for the rest of the week i will be fettling the tools i have been given off danny, getting them ready to press into action!


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## the_g_ster (12 Jul 2010)

Nice one Mike, look forward to reading it. 

Best of luck too.


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## BradNaylor (12 Jul 2010)

I wish you the best of luck, Mick. I'm sure many people would love to do the same thing and will monitoring your progress closely.

I kind of envy you. The early days of setting up a business from scratch are the most exciting - just don't spend money on anything you don't *really* need.

I'll try to help as much as I can. Feel free to PM me if you need any specific advice.

Cheers
Brad


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## mike-reid (12 Jul 2010)

thanks brad, glad i have a some one i can turn to that has experience of this! expect some PM's

Gster, thanks


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## jimi43 (12 Jul 2010)

Good luck Mike. You are a very motivated guy....a fine example to us all!

One of the best books I ever read about planning self employment was called "Write an Inch".

It was in the day of paper only and was meant to signify planning of what you are going to do with regards to research, finanical planning, possible grants, ideas and action plans.

You will be surprised how, just writing things down and thinking logically for 30 minutes each day sets you on the right track to avoid possible pitfalls.

These days...this "blog" would represent that and have the added advantage that research now means a huge lot more...with lots of "advisors" and mentors here.....

Great idea the blog....keep adding to it constructively and do what you have been doing...listening to everyone...deciding what suits you best and taking it on board!

Good luck mate!

Jimi


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## Chems (12 Jul 2010)

I've recently set up a site and turned my hobby into a secondary employment, I'm super busy and making a good amount of profit. Fitted furniture is where the money is I believe.


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## Dibs-h (12 Jul 2010)

Chems":1fv5i3wn said:


> I've recently set up a site and turned my hobby into a secondary employment, I'm super busy and making a good amount of profit. Fitted furniture is where the money is I believe.



I think the work is definitely there, as long as you are professional in your approach and deliver the goods so to speak and the customer is satisfied.

A lot of mates\folk I know want stuff doing - but I'm saying no to one and all, what with the workshop and Wifey\Kids wanting the house back (finished), i.e. all my "junk" out of the house.

I'm sure folk on here will give you a hand with how long stuff should take\how to price up, especially if you've never done it before. It would be a shame and dis-heartening to loose time\money on the 1st lot of jobs.

Dibs


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## mike-reid (12 Jul 2010)

would that not be the learning curve? my pricing structure is going to be along the lines of;
half day (4.5 hrs) £45
full day (8 hrs) £85
obviouly for the ''put me a shelf up'' or ''sort a skirting board'' out type jobs are hourly as a minimum of 1 [email protected]£15. do these seem fair?

for fiited items, well thats a whole diiferent ball game and will be seeking advice on here.

thanks for the warm wishes guys, it is really making this seem a little less daunting!


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## WoodAddict (12 Jul 2010)

I'm sure others will be along with more accurate advice but my first impression is that those rates seem a little too cheap to me. You need to be competitive to get your "foot in the door" so to speak, but some people can also be put off if you are too far under everyone else. They adopt the " to good to be true" attitude or "he can't be much good - he's cheap!"

It's a difficult one to get right.


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## Dibs-h (12 Jul 2010)

mike-reid":2kdcwokk said:


> would that not be the learning curve? my pricing structure is going to be along the lines of;
> half day (4.5 hrs) £45
> full day (8 hrs) £85
> obviouly for the ''put me a shelf up'' or ''sort a skirting board'' out type jobs are hourly as a minimum of 1 [email protected]£15. do these seem fair?
> ...



I think Brad said it somewhere - don't show the "working out" to the customer - i.e. 3hrs @£15 per hour. Just tell the customer it's £45. 

I think in the early days - you may need some guidance on how long some tasks might actually take. You also need to factor in getting there, unloading, getting set up, (then doing it), dismantling\putting stuff away and them loading back up. These things all take time.

Dibs

p.s. 8 hours £85 - *don't do that*. It should be around £150 per day. Look at it this way - jobs require tools, which cost and have a finite life (car included), who's paying for them? 'Cos at £85/day - it looks like you are - i.e. subsidising the punter.


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## mike-reid (12 Jul 2010)

I am trying to think of the type of clients I will have in my immediate geographical area, their incomes and funds likely to be available. If the locals near me are as skint as I am then I rekon its a good price. Dont see how I can charge alot before I build a good reputation.

If I am well off here though, please put me straight

I have my first posters up in B&q, local Morrisons and some local offices and shops already. Only been put through a photocopier and are very simple, but so far my costs are:

NIL

Cheers all


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## mike-reid (12 Jul 2010)

I think Brad said it somewhere - don't show the "working out" to the customer - i.e. 3hrs @£15 per hour. Just tell the customer it's £45. 

I think in the early days - you may need some guidance on how long some tasks might actually take. You also need to factor in getting there, unloading, getting set up, (then doing it), dismantling\putting stuff away and them loading back up. These things all take time.

Dibs

p.s. 8 hours £85 - *don't do that*. It should be around £150 per day. Look at it this way - jobs require tools, which cost and have a finite life (car included), who's paying for them? 'Cos at £85/day - it looks like you are - i.e. subsidising the punter.[/quote]

ah, of course, i forgot that. duly noted and have given myself a skutch on back of the noggin to make it sink in.

ta


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## The Shark (12 Jul 2010)

Hi Mike,

I can't offer you any meaningful advice, as it is not an area I have any experience in, but I wish you the best of luck and hope it goes well for you :lol: 

Malc


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## petermillard (12 Jul 2010)

Mike

Like everyone else, I wish you all the very best with this new venture. If you don't mind a bit of advice from someone who's been self-employed all their working life, and who started a very similar business ten years ago...

Not to knock your idea of handing out leaflets at a boot fair, just remember that folks who frequent boot fairs (and I've bought and sold at a fair few myself) are generally either looking for bargains, or a bit on the thrifty side - esp. in Yorkshire lol. So by all means do it, but do other leaflet drops as well.

Re. your prices, I agree that you have to feel comfortable with what you charge, but those rates are low by any standards. To give yourself a bit of perspective, have a look at what B&Q charge for handyman services in your area, I think you'll be surprised...

I've always priced my hourly rate at around 25% of my day-rate, with the first hour priced slightly higher. That caters for small jobs (makes them worthwhile) and also small jobs that take a little longer than planned; anything longer than a couple of hours and you should be getting into a half-days work.

And finally, don't forget that people will come to you to get jobs done either because they lack the skills to do the work, or the time - or because they just don't want to do it; your services are valuable, so don't sell yourself short by undercharging and overdelivering.

Best of luck. Feel free to PM me as well if I can help with anything.

Cheers, Pete.


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## laird (12 Jul 2010)

Like the others I think you're underpricing yourself. Remember you're doing it for a living, not a charity, and you've got to pay for pensions, tax, days off, sick leave, transport, etc.etc.
I wish you all the luck in the world, enjoy.


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## mike-reid (12 Jul 2010)

whats the score with ratedpeople.com?

have googled and more about it being a scam than good came up...


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## JWLeaper (12 Jul 2010)

Ship Mate 

Your prices are too low (IMHO). I've just paid £80 (which included all materials and non-stop coffee) to a plasterer for 4.5 hours work. These were, what he calls, village rates for those of us in the same village. I got his details from behind the bar in my local - everybody happy. 

Good luck. 

John


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## Scrums (12 Jul 2010)

> sick leave


no such thing when you're self employed 

...many years ago I worked for the civil service.....I could manage about 5 weeks sick a year without getting into the deep smelly stuff, I've been working for myself for the last 20 odd years and have had just a few days - it just don't happen !

Best of luck Mike....don't worry about the underpricing yourself bit too much, you'll soon start to learn what the market will bear and get those prices right.

Chris.


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## OPJ (12 Jul 2010)

I'm sure Brad has said this before, but you really should be aiming for £200 today in the workshop. It should work out between £20-25 p/h. Don't start out too cheap or you'll run in to trouble (perhaps even lose clients and recommendations) when you have to bump your prices right, later. Even if you can "afford" to undercut the competition.

As for second and first-fix jobs, I think £15 p/h sounds about right (it's probably the average for what a carpenter would charge, depending on your area) - though, I'm willing to be told I'm wrong, if you should also consider the overheads of running a workshop, in this situation...?

As Chems said; fitted furniture (as well as kitchens and joinery) is where you're most likely to find regular work. The average person just cannot afford the true value of bespoke fine furniture. However, if you get the opportunity to exhibit one-off, original bespoke pieces at well-publicised exhibitions then, provided you can afford the expense, it might be worth a shot. :wink:

Best of luck to you. There's nothing like working for yourself, or so they say...


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## Karl (12 Jul 2010)

Mike - looking forward to reading of your progress.

Only you can decide what your charge rates should be. As you say, it depends on how much money the people in your chosen area have - no point having a daily rate of £150 if people can't afford it! Equally, set it too low and people will be suspicious. 

If your area won't support a higher daily rate, move (workwise) to an area that will! Better to travel 1/2 hour and get a better rate of pay I say.

You need to allow for your standard of living PLUS your business overheads - a few thou a year for travelling, advertising, insurance, tooling etc. Say £200 per month.

One final thought - never insist on cash for a job. It looks decidedly dodgy. Take it if it's offered though :lol:

Cheers

Karl


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## Dibs-h (12 Jul 2010)

Karl":3r82nazs said:


> One final thought - never insist on cash for a job. It looks decidedly dodgy. Take it if it's offered though :lol:



Equally don't leave the payment till the end and then take a cheque - especially if it could bounce.

Stage the payments. Probably more applicable to some of the larger jobs - say a weeks work or more.


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## tjwoodms (12 Jul 2010)

I wish you the best of luck. 
I would have to agree with the other comments on your pricing. I have only been self employed for 11 months and my rates are mid to high 20s dependant on the type of contract plus call out charges. At these rates its still not easy to make ends meet once you factor in running a vehicle tools insurance and so on.

But having said that i enjoy working much more now than i did whilst with wadkin. The hardest part for me is the lack of regular money 2 weeks ago my bank account was fairly sick but all of the sudden several customers have paid and it look quite rosey again.

Again good luck the worst that can happen is you find you have to go back on the books with a firm.


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## TrimTheKing (12 Jul 2010)

Hi Mike, I have to agree with the many who say you are selling yourself short aiming at £85pd. You need to be aiming for £150 a day at least and break your jobs down within that pricing scale, half a day 85-90. That way if you only get half a day's work one day, or have some distance to travel between the first half of the day and a smaller job later then you are still keeping your head above water.

Here are some very basic calcs assuming you would work a 5 day week and take bank holidays off:

Daily rate------------------------------------------150-----85
Calendar days in a year------------------------365
Number of lost weekend days----------------104
Working days in a year-------------------------261
Yearly earnings-----------------------------------*39150*-----22185

Working days less bank holidays-------------253
Yearly earnings----------------------------------*37950*-----21505

Working days less 3 weeks annual holiday---238
Yearly earnings----------------------------------*35700*-----20230

Now, let's assume you get ill through the year:

Less 1 weeks sick---------------------------------233
Yearly earnings-----------------------------------*34950*-----19805

Then let's assume you won't be stacked with work for the entire year and knock off a very conservative 1 day a fortnight:

Less 10%----------------------------------------209.7
Yearly earnings----------------------------------*31455*-----17824

You can very quickly see how rapidly your income can reduce, and out of this you need to pay for tooling, consumables, fuel/servicing on your car, personal liabilities (insurance, life assurance, pension/savings etc) as well as pay yourself a salary.

Don't worry about price affecting your reputation, you will build the rep by doing a good job for a market rate price. If market rate is £150pd and you do a good job, then people will tell people and it will spiral.

Please don't take this as knocking what you are doing, I think it's fantastic and absolutely the right thing for you to be doing and I applaud you for it =D> , just don't let sentiment lead you to charge your life's most important asset, your time, out too cheaply! You can always lower your prices if you geet feedback that it's too high, raising them and keeping custom is much more difficult.

All the very best and I will be keeping an eye on this.


EDIT - I took a break while writing this and others got in there with similar suggestions. Karl's idea of widening your net is a good one too...


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## mtr1 (12 Jul 2010)

How much experience do you have? if you have none or very little and you charge a day rate of £150, and you take 3 days to do a 1 day job. you will soon find yourself out of work, better to price jobs I would have thought so you take the loss and not your reputation. you will soon get the hang of pricing or you will go out of business anyway. 

All of my work comes from 50% word of mouth(my wife would say mine), 35% from my website, 10% from an ad in most of the parish news letters/magazines, and 5% from van sign writing and business cards at events(partys,bbqs).
Apart from above, all other advertising has brought other advertisers wanting to sell me more advertising. All of the free listing sites have brought a big fat £0 but they don't cost so I guess it can't harm. Think hard where your advertising will have the most effect, or you might as well just throw money away. What kind of area are you thinking of going into? Site fitting, Joinery, Cabinet maker? Hope it all goes well for you by the way.


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## BradNaylor (12 Jul 2010)

I had a chat with Steve Maskery about pricing the other week, and he reckons that although self employed people work long hours and don't take time off, they can only bill 1000 hours a year.

I poo-pooed this but then thought about it afterwards - and he's absolutely right!

So if you want to earn £25k you need to charge £25 per hour. The 'slippage' between what you think you're earning and what you actually do earn is horrendous!


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## wobblycogs (12 Jul 2010)

I'd just like to wish you all the best and throw in my 2p's worth. I've been self employed for a few years now (not in the field your looking to enter though). 

You are most certainly cutting your own throat with those sorts of prices. Personally, I'd probably not employ you if you came in with a quote like that because I'd be wondering why you were asking so little. 

I've looked at how much it costs to run my business and assuming I'm going to take a salary that makes it worth while I need to bring in about £120 per day on average. Don't forget that it costs quite a lot to run a company (insurance being one of the worst drains on cash). 

IMHO, I'd set up straight away as a limited company. It's a bit more paper work and you realistically need an accountant to make up the books at the end of the year but you can get a decent accountant for about £400 a year if you shop around and he should save you that much by helping you avoid tax (nothing illegal, just simple tax efficiency). If you go limited you will need to set up a company bank account, I managed to bag one with Santander (when they were still Abbey) with has no charges  

If you feel that you can't currently gauge how long a job will take maybe do your first few jobs for a fixed price. Record how long they take and use that to gauge future jobs. It sounds silly but time yourself at first doing all the various different parts of the job e.g. how long does it take you: to get your equipment out (no pun intended ), set up, do the job, put everything away, clean up, etc. You probably don't want a company van at first but you can claim mileage etc. 

Anyway, I look forward to hearing about how it goes. It'll be hard at first but stick at it.


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## NKE (12 Jul 2010)

…..and don’t forget that’s before you have deducted the cost of equipment, petrol, materials and then the chunk the chancellor wants….
When I set up on my own I worked out what I had to turn over a month to be able to support my family, business overheads and tax, and then tried to project the demand I could generate for my product…and from there worked out what I needed to charge to keep afloat.
It was pretty tough for the first five years or so but also the best thing I ever did.


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## petermillard (12 Jul 2010)

Just to add, there's a standard 'cost of doing business' calculation that's probably well worth doing - I did this for myself when I first became self-employed all those years ago, and my accountants now include it in the 'starter pack' for any sole-traders they get enquiries from. I have it in an Excel spreadsheet if the OP (or anyone else) is interested??

The following is the blurb I wrote to accompany the spreadsheet - sounds more complex than it is:-
------------
Take all your overheads - these are regular (weekly, monthly, quarterly, whatever) costs that occur over a working year, and will typically include rent & rates on premises/workshop, business insurance, all vehicle costs, all likely annual professional fees (accountancy, legal etc...) all phone costs, all advertising and promotional costs, subscriptions to professional organisations, equipment repairs and renewals, health insurances, any additional computer equipment, office supplies, professional development (courses and extra qualifications), internet - broadband, web site & email - basically anything and everything that relates to the general running of your business and isn't tied to a specific job.

Add to this the typical (gross ) salary you'd like to achieve - be realistic about this, it's important!

Then divide this total by the number of billable days you're likely to work. Again, be realistic; there are not 365 billable days in the year, not even close! For what it's worth, I work on the basis of 200 billable days in the year, but obviously your calcs may be totally different to mine - though interestingly 'four days a week on the tools' over 52 weeks only equates to 208 billable days...

This simple calculation ([total likely overhead+preferred salary] divided by [number of billable days]) will give you the day rate you need to achieve to maintain this level. Now, nobody lives in isolation, so if you end up with a day-rate of £490 when everyone else in your area is charging around £180, then you might want to take a look at those calculations again! 

Similarly, you might want to leave the 'salary' out of the equation altogether, and work out what your business (or proposed business) is actually going to cost to run, then figure out if you can afford to do it on what the 'going rate' is in your area.
---------------

Cheers, Pete


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## Good Surname or what ? (12 Jul 2010)

Mike,

It seems to me that you have the right attitude to make a success of this. Add in the great advice from the guys on this forum who have allready trodden that road and I think you'll make it. It probably won't be easy, but perhaps in the hard times these words may help.

_"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better.

The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt.
"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910_

Best of luck. Please keep us posted on your progress.
Phil


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## Mike.C (12 Jul 2010)

Good luck Mike. 

I seem to remember in the dim and distance past that Paul Richardson wrote an article that ran over several issues of Furniture and Cabinetmaking about starting up your own business and what to add to the quote when pricing up a job. Then he explained about what to include when trying to work out your daily rate and mentioned things that I would never have thought of like workshop electric and road tax, and then divide by 365. 

Cheers

Mike


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## laird (12 Jul 2010)

Scrums":15obw3wx said:


> > sick leave
> 
> 
> no such thing when you're self employed
> ...


I've just lost a whack of time (and am about to lose some more) trying to sort out a brain tumour. This sort of problem may occur whether you're self employed or not - and either way you've got to have the cash to cover non earning periods.
Not moaning, just being realistic.


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## matthewwh (12 Jul 2010)

Mike, 

First off bloody well done - a small step for man, a giant leap for Mike and his family.

If you are thinking about fitted furniture it may be worth talking with Simon from Oryx Design, he was thinking about offering kitchen fitting courses and both the train fare and the training are wonderfully tax deductible! Simon is a fantastic guy and has a vast technical knowledge and understanding of the industry.

Another idea is joining the federation of small businesses who can help you out with inexpensive bank accounts, insurance etc, free legal advice, and access to other small business owners in your area through networking events (you'll meet new friends in the same boat and potential clients - these are exactly the type of people you want to be targetting).

For leaflets google vistaprint for dirt cheap but very high quality printing that you can design yourself online. Don't mess around with boot fairs, go for a drive and find the street with the biggest houses, electric gates and big shiny mercs in the driveway - work the fertile ground first and then go down from there. Loaded people work bloody hard for what they've got and don't have the time for handywork - they really appreciate a good reliable bloke, don't mind paying for a job well done and are just as quick to recommend you to more good clients. 

Look like the kind of guy they'd like to have in their home, smart checked shirt, clean jeans with no holes, polished shoes that you take off at the door and then put back on once you're on the dustsheets, clean shaven, smelling nice, a big smile and a headful of jokes that are suitable for kids. 

The normal advice is to lease a new van as this looks smart and doesn't require a bunch of capiatal, but second hand ones are a steal at the moment so you may be better off getting a bank loan and buying one - don't laugh too hard when they ask for 10% interest it is the going rate at the moment. 

Last thing that no one has accounted for yet - the dreaded 'just' factor - as in 'can you just', you will get people who want you to 'just' do this and 'just' to that and before you know it you've 'just' done half a day's work for nowt. Work out now whether you want to 'just' build it into your pricing and be able to say 'sure' with a smile on your face, or whether you want to suck your teeth and say 'well I can, but it'll cost another...'


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## Benchwayze (12 Jul 2010)

All the best of British to you Mikey. Great to see someone deciding to give it a go. I really wish you all the luck you deserve Oppo! 

Incidentally, there's another No. 4 on the way in the next few days, and if I can find it a rip-panel saw, (Should you want one you cvan re-sharpen.)
Although you can buy hard-points for about a fiver these days. 

let me know.

John


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## Dan-K (12 Jul 2010)

I can't give any useful advice on starting up and several people have commented on the rates aspect already, but just to say I recently paid £150 for an electrician for a day. This was the labour component of a straightforward job, approx 8hrs with a lunch break and he was on the 'competitive' end of the quotes we got :wink: I'd not expect to pay much less to any sort of tradesman, and like others have said, if you are 'too' cheap that can be just as off-putting to the customer as over-charging 

All the very best with the new venture


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## richburrow (12 Jul 2010)

Mike I think you are taking a good step forward.
I know this might sound very tedious.....
I am sure that there is a market for assembling Ikea style furniture. It could be a nice little add on to your business.
Ikea offer a service have a look at what they charge.
Just an idea
Good luck
Rich


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## big soft moose (12 Jul 2010)

just to add the best wishes mike (and note that your box of rubbish - i mean preloved- tools is growing)

btw I'd second what the others said about price £85pd is too low - I dont do day rate (wood) work , but for craft fairs in pricing up my turnery I'd calculate prices based on materials +overhead+ labour at £25/hour then adjust it if it seems to low or high

When I used to do day rate work with a chainsaw I'd usually start from £400/day (to reflect the higher degree of skill /risk involved in working aloft) , though again that would be adjusted up or down per job (ie down if i was taking away a lot of decent wood, up if the client was a rich barsteward who could cleary afford it)

Bottom line is to charge what the market will stand and not to underprice yourself startiong out as it is difficult to raise prices on repeat buisness later - also a lot of people think cheap=poor quality so you may actually get more custom charging more


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## Lons (12 Jul 2010)

petermillard":2e6bg5d4 said:


> Just to add, there's a standard 'cost of doing business' calculation that's probably well worth doing - I did this for myself when I first became self-employed all those years ago, and my accountants now include it in the 'starter pack' for any sole-traders they get enquiries from. I have it in an Excel spreadsheet if the OP (or anyone else) is interested??
> 
> The following is the blurb I wrote to accompany the spreadsheet - sounds more complex than it is:-
> ------------
> ...



*I'd endorse that 100%*

I did a similar excercise when I set up my business 15 years ago and I excluded the salary bit as I wanted to see if I could actually afford to do it at all.

It's very easy to get carried away with the dream of working for yourself. you have to have the drive and downright singlemindedness to make it happen (unless you're very lucky).

You'll have to work bloody hard and long hours and in the early days, if you calculate your actual hours (inc accounts / estimates etc) you'll get a shock at how little your rate actually is.

*If successful, it will be the best thing you ever did though!*

Incidently - right from the start I made the decision to produce quality work for a premium rate. I never advertise - all word of mouth and I guard my reputation vigourously. I've always had more work than I can handle and once you've got a few good jobs under your belt it's amazing how quickly word spreads.

remember though - bad reputation moves even faster.

Good luck

Bob


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## TEO (12 Jul 2010)

Good luck Mike,
Lots of good advice here, especially about your pricing; I'm with all the others, you need to aiming for at least £150/day. However, having said that, what with overruns, the unknown unknowns and straightforward silly person cock ups, I'm sure that I've done many jobs for loads less than that. 
However as Karl said, if your target market doesn't have the money, it doesn't have the money so you'll have to be sensitive to that, I have a sort of unofficial ad hoc redistributive policy. The wealthy clients, relative to me most of them are wealthy, get to help the less well off clients.
Also, a little preparation for the vagaries of self employment might help later: Clients change their minds...a lot, try not to present them with too many solutions, a few good choices are better all round. The really interesting jobs are the ones that involve new techniques, materials etc, don't be put off by the unknown, it might just be the most interesting thing you've ever had to learn and there are a million places and people who are happy to share their knowledge with somebody who values it. Painful experience says always get a least 50% upfront, on most jobs that will cover all the materials and pay you a pittance if the client decides to go bankrupt! Try and get it all written down ie. get the clients to agree to a drawing and a scheme of works, even if it's only rough, we all have to suck up a few niggles but when it comes to the big stuff that's really going to cost you money, a piece of paper can be a great help when you need to dig your heals in.
Going self employed is the best thing, it certainly has it's moments but they all add to the mix.
Best of luck,
T


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## srp (13 Jul 2010)

Well done mate, and good luck.
The 1000 hours comment from Steve Maskery that Brad mentioned is very true, and is the reason you should avoid the "can you just" jobs.

My (lighthearted) response to "can you just" is by saying 'I don't 'just' do a job, I do it thoroughly', followed by 'when would you like me to book it in". Another favourite is 'do you do odd jobs?' - answer - "a lot of my jobs are odd, but i don't do odd jobs. What do you need doing and when". This usually results in some extra work, but you've made the point you're a professional and not willing to do a bodge.

And word of mouth is priceless.


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## superunknown (13 Jul 2010)

I wish you the very best of luck. I am in my third month of doing the very same thing. So far I am loving it.

There is some great advice in this thread, I wont repeat.

'Make sure your not to cheap', the advice most people have given me. If your work is good and you are good at what you do you will be fine.

If you ever fancy a chat of want any help, let me know. 


The very best

Steve


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## tjwoodms (13 Jul 2010)

One of the things i do to try to bring in repeat bussiness is when passing a recent customer i pop in to make sure everything is ok or at least call them a month or so later alot of people appreciate this and often book for follow on jobs off the back of this. It also demonstaites your not going to take the money and run. Also alot of the time if the customer isnt completly satisfied he wont call to let you know but will simply use somone else in the future so if you call in and discover this you have a chance of doing somthing to change their mind weather it be a small adjustment or just a quallity check.
Also no matter how hard you try you will never completly satisfy everybody somtimes they just dont like you.

i also give a 5% discount for payment on completion it helps get the money in.

Its not easy setting up a small bussiness but if it was everybody would be doing it and there wouldnt be a hole in the market for you slide into.


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## awkwood (13 Jul 2010)

There are alot of reigonal differences in what is a reasonable rate. In my area the cheapest are £10 to £12 and any one charging £24 per hour is regarded as dear, this is for a 8 hour day
In the last few months ive found it hard to win jobs at £20. per hour,but £17.50 to £18.00 seems to be the going rate here

If you are doing alot of small jobs everyweek there is a lot of lost time, traveling, collecting materials ,ordering , measuring up and phone calls, and it can be suprising to few hours you can invoice in a week, On weeks like these you can be very busy work 6 days and still not make as much as you expect


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## beech1948 (13 Jul 2010)

Mike,

I've just caught up with your plans for self employment. Good decision, great to see you doing this. I wish you all of the luck in the world to succeed.

You have had lots of advice already about rates, quality etc etc. 

BUT, what service are you actually providing to your unsuspecting customers.

best regards
Alan


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## mike-reid (13 Jul 2010)

A.M. HOME MAINTENANCE
07908363770

TRADITIONAL SKILLS, TRADITIONAL VALUES. GETTING THE JOB DONE RIGHT, FIRST TIME AND ON TIME!

	ALL TYPES OF CARPENTRY/CABINET MAKING/TIMBER FINISHING
	DOOR AND LOCK REPLACING
	FLAT PACK ASSEMBLY
	PAINTING AND DECORATING
	OUTDOOR MAINTENANCE
	INTERNAL RENOVATIONS
	FURNITURE/FLOORING RESTORATION

IF YOU WANT A PUNCTUAL AND PROFESSIONAL FAMILY RUN SERVICE, CALL US FOR YOUR FREE QUOTE.

VERY REASONABLE RATES. QUALITY WORK AND SATISFACTION GUARANTEED. 
HOURS- 8 TIL LATE


here is whats on the flyer. 

wow, where do i start with soooo many posts to answer???


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## mike-reid (13 Jul 2010)

there is so much information on here! i want to print it out so i can isolate all the advice and condense it to make a page of bullet points, but when i print it it only shows half of the page.
is there a print version button i am missing somewhere?


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## TrimTheKing (13 Jul 2010)

mike-reid":2ektbies said:


> A.M. HOME MAINTENANCE
> 07908363770
> 
> TRADITIONAL SKILLS, TRADITIONAL VALUES. GETTING THE JOB DONE RIGHT, FIRST TIME AND ON TIME!
> ...


Hi Mike, just a little grammar tweak. Reads better I think.


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## BradNaylor (13 Jul 2010)

mike-reid":1ukjhkqm said:


> A.M. HOME MAINTENANCE
> 07908363770



2 points;

1. The name - boring boring boring! Either come up with a snappy, catchy trading name that says what you do, or just use your own full name. The former makes you stand out from the crowd and the latter sounds trustworthy and professional. Using initials just makes you look unimaginative!

2. Always include your landline number as well as your mobile. It gives you a look of permanence and respectability.

Brad


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## petermillard (13 Jul 2010)

BradNaylor":110e4ice said:


> 2. Always include your landline number as well as your mobile. It gives you a look of permanence and respectability.
> 
> Brad



Unless you don't want work calls coming to your house, of course. Maybe Mike should think about buying an 0845 or 0800 number and diverting it to your mobile - cheap enough and easy to do, and it works for me 

Pete


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## mike-reid (13 Jul 2010)

i havent got a land line, cant afford it!

ok, the name is pants? i'd love to use 'HIRE A HUBBY' but its already been taken. the initials are after my sons name and the idea is that with it being an A, it will be at the top of directory listings like thompson local and in paper classifieds etc. 

the name is important you are totally right. but i am not sure a snappy catchy one is the way ahead. i want to be known for being traditional and solid, not gimicky, if that makes sense. will have to work on that then.

thanks for the grammer amendment Brad......


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## wobblycogs (13 Jul 2010)

You don't need to buy 0845 numbers any more, you can get them free. I've just signed up for one for my company with these people http://www.uk2numbers.co.uk but there are loads of others out there. 

Might be worth getting a website set up as well. I doubt you will get any work through directly but potential clients might look you up to see what you are like. No need to spend the earth on some super fancy designer site, you just need something respectable for now.

I'd certainly spend some time thinking about a good name. We let the company muppet register the name and so we have ended up stuck with a name that causes most normal people to retch and come out in a nasty rash (ok, maybe it's not quite that bad).


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## Terry Smart (13 Jul 2010)

I'd agree that a landline number is important - I'd be reluctant to deal with someone who doesn't have one in a business set-up.

Personally, I'd avoid 0845 numbers; many people have call-inclusive packages these days which offer free calls to landline numbers; many still exclude 0845 numbers, I'd rather call an 01 or 02 number. Yes, I know I'm tight but that's the way I am.

Also, it's reckoned that next year more calls will be made on mobiles than on land-lines for the first time. Most mobiles charge for 08** numbers so this won't attract the business you might think an 0845 or even 0800 number would.

Ultimately, a landline gives credibility and builds trust.


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## Steve Maskery (13 Jul 2010)

I thought I'd already posted this, but it appears not.

I would avoid the use of ALL CAPITALS in your text. It is more difficult to read than lower case and makes it look as if you are shouting everything.

S


PS Brad, glad to see you are coming round to my way of thinking...


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## Dan-K (13 Jul 2010)

I'm afraid I'm also going to be picky here  


> HOURS- 8 TIL LATE


should be HOURS- 8 TILL LATE, or better still: I am happy to be contacted between 8AM and 8PM Monday to Friday.
I agree with the point about capitals being shouty, and 'late' means different things to different people. You also don't say which days you work, or specify if available 7 days a week. I just think it could be a little clearer and more elegant. Hope you don't mind, only intending to help  
Also agree re: landline number. I usually won't even call to enquire if a landline isn't listed.


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## Steve Maskery (13 Jul 2010)

Dan-K":1xqhkvqm said:


> I'm afraid I'm also going to be picky here
> 
> 
> > HOURS- 8 TIL LATE
> ...



Er, I can out-pedant you! 

It should be 8 'til late, as, in this context, TIL is a contraction of UNTIL.

I do agree that that looks a tad odd though.

S


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## big soft moose (13 Jul 2010)

mike-reid":wvyhlom8 said:


> and the idea is that with it being an A, it will be at the top of directory listings like thompson local and in paper classifieds etc.



In that case how about "Aardvark home maintenance"  

and on the hours thing steve is right that its 8 'til late - but why put hours on at all, you arent a shop, your clients will be making appointments after all and presumably your phone has voicemail so you could just say "call any time"

(also get a landline - if you get one soley for buisness it will be a deductable expense, so you will be able to afford it)


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## Dibs-h (13 Jul 2010)

Mike

I'm assuming you have a broadband - why not just get a VOIP fone & number. Numbers cost on average £1 per month and since you aren't really going to be making calls - costs of calls aren't an issue (but they're cheap in any case). Just have it go to a recorded message, inviting callers to leave their number & message, or ring the mobile.

Still professional and as cheap as chips.

HIH

Dibs


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## Steve Maskery (13 Jul 2010)

Dibs, do you have any recommendations?
S


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## Dibs-h (13 Jul 2010)

Steve Maskery":36t6k8jp said:


> Dibs, do you have any recommendations?
> S



A while ago I saw alot of good press for www.voipfone.co.uk and they do a month's free trial - so you can check it out.

Whoever you go with check out http://www.itspa.org.uk/members.html and make sure they are on it. Past experience would suggest staying away from resellers.

HIH

Dibs

p.s. If you can't get a free trial for a month or so - then they aren't really pitched at small businesses and I'd say give them a miss.


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## Mike.C (13 Jul 2010)

laird":2sypfhlg said:


> Scrums":2sypfhlg said:
> 
> 
> > > sick leave
> ...



What can I say Laird, I am really sorry to hear about your medical condition. Although my illness was no where near as bad as yours I do know how you must be feeling. Good luck to you for the future and try and follow the best advice I was ever given _"Do not give up hope"_

Cheers

Mike


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## Dan-K (13 Jul 2010)

Steve Maskery":1m25j0lo said:


> Er, I can out-pedant you!
> 
> It should be 8 'til late, as, in this context, TIL is a contraction of UNTIL.


Ooh, I knew I should have added a rider! Prepare to be out-pedanted!  I was taught to use till; the contraction 'til is a more recent and informal term, which apparently arose from a misconception as explained here. Anyhow, I concede 'til (with the apostrophe) would be equally acceptable to most. 
I shall now get back on topic and agree with moose:


moose":1m25j0lo said:


> why put hours on at all, you arent a shop, your clients will be making appointments after all and presumably your phone has voicemail so you could just say "call any time"



And laird, I'm also sorry to hear the news, hope it gets sorted soon.


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## petermillard (13 Jul 2010)

I had a couple of Skype numbers (Skype-In??) for six months or so, just to try them out. I have to say, promoting one of these numbers alongside my mobile number, I think I had one call to the 'landline' vs all others to the mobile, so from my experience, the whole 'anyone working just from a mobile phone is dodgy' attitude just doesn't play out .

I don't disagree about a landline number giving an impression of 'permanence' or 'stability' but it's only an impression - this is the 21st Century; _everybody_ has a mobile 'phone (my octogenarian parents have mobile phones) and using a mobile number rather than a landline as the main point of contact makes perfect sense when that person's job is to be out and about working in peoples homes i.e. not in an office or a workshop waiting for calls.

I put my 0800 number in play for my convenience, and everyone always asks for my direct mobile number - if only so they can text me.

Cheers, Pete


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## Steve Maskery (13 Jul 2010)

Dan
Oo-er! I didn't know that! 

Thanks for a bit more hinteresting heducation.

Cheers
Steve


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## beech1948 (13 Jul 2010)

Mike,
You said
>>>.
M. HOME MAINTENANCE 
07908363770 

TRADITIONAL SKILLS, TRADITIONAL VALUES. GETTING THE JOB DONE RIGHT, FIRST TIME AND ON TIME! 

	ALL TYPES OF CARPENTRY/CABINET MAKING/TIMBER FINISHING : Err what does this mean. Can you list better examples..door fitting, kitchens fitted, build-ins, bookcases, tables, etc etc
	DOOR AND LOCK REPLACEMENT 
	FLAT PACK ASSEMBLY 
	PAINTING AND DECORATING 
	OUTDOOR MAINTENANCE : Can you be more specific
	INTERNAL RENOVATIONS : Can you be more specific
	FURNITURE/FLOORING RESTORATION 

IF YOU WANT A PUNCTUAL AND PROFESSIONAL FAMILY RUN SERVICE, CALL US FOR YOUR FREE QUOTE. 

VERY REASONABLE RATES. QUALITY WORK AND SATISFACTION GUARANTEED. 
HOURS- 8 TIL LATE 
<<<<<

I was thinking that often clients don't know what to call things, or imagine a technical name but don't know it. Being more explicit gives a couple of things:-
1) It look like you have more experience and skill than normal
2) You look more professional
3) You provide ideas of what people might consider to hire you for at £150+ per day

Good luck
Alan


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## big soft moose (13 Jul 2010)

Couple of other points



mike-reid":2n7zmndq said:


> IF YOU WANT A PUNCTUAL AND PROFESSIONAL *FAMILY RUN *SERVICE, CALL US FOR YOUR FREE QUOTE.



My understanding was that it was just you - so how are you ar "family run service" - if it is just you i'd say "if you want a punctual and proffesional service, call me for quote"



mike-reid":2n7zmndq said:


> VERY REASONABLE RATES. QUALITY WORK AND *SATISFACTION GUARANTEED. *



I'd be careful of putting that in writing - because it appears to mean that if I am not 100% satisfied I diont have to pay - andf some peopole are picky beggars who are never satisfied and will use this against you

you could just say "very reasonable rates and quality work guaranteed" but Imo it would be punchier to leave it at "call me for a quote"

also I would put the phone number at the end as in "call me for a quote on... "


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## Steve Maskery (13 Jul 2010)

Dibs - thank you.


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## mike-reid (14 Jul 2010)

ok then fellas

all of the points for the flyer have now been taken into consideration and have changed the draft copy, shall we say. i have expanded on the services available, fitted wardrobes, book cases, outdoors maintainence like fencing, gates, planter boxes and benches. When i get a 'shop set up i will then advertise furniture, but one step at a time i think. 

times, satisfaction statement and grammer changes have also been corrected.

i am going to look into the landline number, but as pointed out, i am not going to be sat in the house waiting for it to ring (hopefully), so a possible 0800 divert number would be the best option.

I am struggling with the name change though. I know its not jumping off the page, but this is going to be a long term venture and I do hope it will be able to grow into a family business for me and my sons, hence using family initials. 

i have a day off from the dreaded office today so will be putting it to full use, doing some leaflet drops and having them put up in local shops and builders/painters merchants.

Must also make more time for tool fettling and looking into how to set up as sole trader ot Ltd.

thank you all for the pointers and advice, it really is priceless!


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## Dibs-h (14 Jul 2010)

mike-reid":2x34cflv said:


> i am going to look into the landline number, but as pointed out, i am not going to be sat in the house waiting for it to ring (hopefully), so a possible 0800 divert number would be the best option.



I wouldn't do an 0800 nbr - it costs from mobiles and it costs you to receive. Most VOIP providers can give you any geographic nbr. Say for arguments most of the work you wanted was in Sheffield and you wanted to appear as if you were in Sheffield - they'd give you an Sheffield nbr as easily as they'd give you a Barnsley nbr. And for the same cost. Just let it run to answer machine - giving the caller the mobile nbr, should they wish to contact you immediately (sort of thing).




mike-reid":2x34cflv said:


> I do hope it will be able to grow into a family business for me and my sons, hence using family initials.



It's good to have aspirations and a long term plan - but who knows what your lads will want to do in 10-20yrs time. I would suggest you aim to make it grow and be profitable as possible. Anything else is a bonus. The one thing I would say to you is be mercenary with your thinking - there's no room here to be personal, etc. It's about getting the maximum return for your time & effort, whilst maintaining customer satisfaction, excedding expectations and encouraging repeat business - nothing less, nothing more.

I've met folk who've gone into business - not treating it seriously and getting all enamoured with the thought of "being in business", but when asked what their hourly costs are, they haven't had a clue and ended up going out of business.

I've met dung hot trademen and met dung hot businessfolk and not often the 2 in one.

HIH

Dibs


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## Scrums (14 Jul 2010)

Just a couple of more points/ideas.....

1) Name of the business - whether or not you intend to link it to a website straight away or possibly sometime in the future - decide on a name that you can get a .co.uk domain name for and buy it.....for instance your email addy won't end up as [email protected], which looks cheap and nasty for a business.

2) Business banking - looks so much better when the customer pays the business name rather than J.Bloggs.....and it can be free. Santander (was Abbey) do a free account and so do Alliance & Liecester (also part of Santander) I've tried both - Abbey/Santander were awful, whilst A&L are great, plus you do all your banking via a post office, they do charge though - but only if you don't bank £ 1k a month.

3) Consider, perhaps in the future taking Credit cards, a bit immoral in a way but I've managed to overcome my scruples and seen an increase in turnover. Cost for hire of GPRS terminal is about £1 a day, then card fees on top of that - but giving customers an alternative to cash/cheques, particularly when cheques are going out of fashion can pay dividends.

Chris.


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## Orcamesh (14 Jul 2010)

Good luck Mike on your new adventure, looks like you have had shed loads of advice already so I wont add as it seems unnecessary. 

But as for company names beginning with A, how about :

(1) Accurate Woodworking (or Carpentry)

(2) Amazing Woodwork (or Carpentry)

(3) Absolute Woodworking Services

(4) ABC Woodwork

(5) Aspire (or Aspirational) - Woodworking Services

(6) Articulate Woodwork

I can come up with more, but feel free to use (if you can)...

If there is a town/village near you which begins with A then you could probably use that too.

You may need to check on Trademarks by doing a trademark search and if you want to become a limited company then you may need to check on company names already listed, but you probably already know this.

cheers 
Steve


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## wizer (14 Jul 2010)

All Carpentry Services (Barnsley) Ltd


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## Dibs-h (14 Jul 2010)

Scrums":2b7ekoxs said:


> 3) Consider, perhaps in the future taking Credit cards, a bit immoral in a way but I've managed to overcome my scruples and seen an increase in turnover. Cost for hire of GPRS terminal is about £1 a day, then card fees on top of that - but giving customers an alternative to cash/cheques, particularly when cheques are going out of fashion can pay dividends.
> 
> Chris.



Not to mention you can pre-authorise credit cards at the beginning of a job for a customer with whom you've never dealt with before.

Dibs


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## jlawrence (15 Jul 2010)

For a landline number take a look at www.voiptalk.org, I've used them in the past and it worked well.
When looking to contract someone in for something I won't touch them if they only advertise a mobile number. However, I will 99% ring their mobile rather than landline - assuming they advertise both.
I suppose I see a landline number as a company having a physical presence (even if it's just a house) where as with a mobile you've next to no chance of tracing them.
I also won't contract someone who doesn't advertise their company/operating address.

I must say, "hubby for hire" sounded more like somekind of pimping service .


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## BradNaylor (16 Jul 2010)

Dibs-h":1pq7vn1n said:


> Scrums":1pq7vn1n said:
> 
> 
> > 3) Consider, perhaps in the future taking Credit cards, a bit immoral in a way but I've managed to overcome my scruples and seen an increase in turnover. Cost for hire of GPRS terminal is about £1 a day, then card fees on top of that - but giving customers an alternative to cash/cheques, particularly when cheques are going out of fashion can pay dividends.
> ...



I really wouldn't bother.

In twenty five years of dealing with the public I've never had a single case of anyone refusing to pay. After all, you know exactly where they live.

The only reasons I can think of for this happening are if you've done a lousy job, in which case they shouldn't be expected to pay, or if they are total scumbags, in which case you shouldn't be doing the work in the first place.

'Scumbags' inhabit all strata of society. The key is to identify them before agreeing to do any work for them!

As for cheques, most of my customers pay me by BACS


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## TEO (16 Jul 2010)

BradNaylor":2lafdiu8 said:


> Dibs-h":2lafdiu8 said:
> 
> 
> > Scrums":2lafdiu8 said:
> ...



It's not always as simple as that Brad, 
I was subbing for a main contractor who went bust, the cabinets I'd fitted couldn't be removed, I couldn't get access and no point anyway as they wouldn't fit anywhere else. I'd done a few jobs for the guy before and he'd paid on the nail. I took some advice but basically it was just one of those things, his cash flow got stuffed by the banks withdrawing most of his overdraft. I had to just suck it up.
Nearly bankrupted me in the process and it's still rumbling through my finances two years later.
C'est la vie and sometime La vie really does a number on you.


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## Dibs-h (16 Jul 2010)

BradNaylor":1epu8ut5 said:


> I really wouldn't bother.
> 
> In twenty five years of dealing with the public I've never had a single case of anyone refusing to pay. After all, you know exactly where they live.
> 
> ...



I entirely understand what you mean Brad, but if you as a trader have a GPRS CC terminal and are using it. It is only another option at your disposal to be able to pre-authorise a credit card before work takes place.

Not only for perceived dodgy clients but for any or all of them. It's extremely common practise out there for deposits to be taken (what they mean is pre-authorise) on CC's, and I think it's not a bad idea to copy the rest of Industry sometimes. Business is business and I think good business practices are universal.

Dibs


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## BradNaylor (16 Jul 2010)

TEO":1zogsztj said:


> It's not always as simple as that Brad,
> I was subbing for a main contractor who went bust, the cabinets I'd fitted couldn't be removed, I couldn't get access and no point anyway as they wouldn't fit anywhere else. I'd done a few jobs for the guy before and he'd paid on the nail. I took some advice but basically it was just one of those things, his cash flow got stuffed by the banks withdrawing most of his overdraft. I had to just suck it up.
> Nearly bankrupted me in the process and it's still rumbling through my finances two years later.
> C'est la vie and sometime La vie really does a number on you.



One of the many reasons why I don't subby for anyone. I only work with private clients who I like the look of!

Life's too short...


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## Dibs-h (16 Jul 2010)

BradNaylor":660uyulm said:


> One of the many reasons why I don't subby for anyone. I only work with private clients who I like the look of!
> 
> Life's too short...



I think that's the way to be - but in the early days, I think it's hard for someone (unless they're somehow overwhelmed with work early on) in the early days to be so selective.


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## Shane (16 Jul 2010)

All the best Mike, I was in this position in Nov 08 and it has been the best thing I have ever done, I wont pretend it hasn't been tough, but deffo worth it. I havn't got much to add though I'm afraid cos it's all been said previously.



Dibs-h":qshjw54e said:


> I think that's the way to be - but in the early days, I think it's hard for someone (unless they're somehow overwhelmed with work early on) in the early days to be so selective.



I made sure very early on to have my tw*t radar dailed in properly, better to be at home for free than out working for free


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## Mr Mike (17 Jul 2010)

BradNaylor":1tml808r said:


> One of the many reasons why I don't subby for anyone. I only work with private clients who I like the look of!
> 
> Life's too short...




I second those sentiments entirely. You really learn to trust your instincts about people when working purely with private customers. Life really is too short to work for 'orrible people.....and when working, you need to be able to focus on your work, not worry about whether you're going to get paid or not. If i don't feel 100% about a customer, then I will politely decline the work or the offer to quote.

I've worked for interior designers in the past, and if anything, it made it absolutely clear to me that I prefer to work directly with the client.

I don't pay for advertising and I'm booked solidly through to late November at the moment. In the summer months it's mainly sash restoration and listed building work, in the autumn and winter months, mainly fitted furniture / alcove units.

Definitely don't price yourself too cheaply in the first few years as you will lose those first customers as regulars when you start to inch your prices up. If you have other customers to fill that vacuum then that's fine.

You will find pricing a headache too initially.....dont worry if you don't make as much as you would have liked to on some jobs......that does happen occasionally......the important thing is to leave the client satisfied.


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## TrimTheKing (17 Jul 2010)

WTF is it with all these pineapple's???


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## Steve Maskery (17 Jul 2010)

Trim
It didn't used to be written like that. I think that an zomeone haz changed all the occurrencez of the letter between R and T into pineapple.

Cheerz
Z


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## Dibs-h (17 Jul 2010)

TrimTheKing":3ffwaefd said:


> WTF is it with all these pineapple's???



If you start cussing it replaces all the words with pineapple. :lol:


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