# Where to buy the best coping saw?



## markturner (3 Jul 2011)

Hi, I am after a top quality coping saw, any recommendations? 

Cheers, Mark


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## jasonB (3 Jul 2011)

Best for what? If its site use scribing skirtings etc then a good old Eclipse is hard to beat. If its for fine dovetails then you may want to consider a peircing saw.


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## AndyT (3 Jul 2011)

Well, here's my answer. I mentioned this in Jimi's thread on his new saw. Not as pretty, but very practical. 

It started with a nondescript looking bundle of three sticks in box of sale stuff in an old tools shop. I think I paid a pound for it. The frame is marked Marples, and I guess it probably dates to before WW2. 







Obviously, I added a twizzle-stick (thanks Condeesteso!) and some modern but practical terylene cord. 
To use it as a coping saw I made a shorter stretcher from a scrap of beech, and cut slots in the brass rods to take the pinned blades.






The result is light, manoevrable, tensions well and is generally pleasanter to use than my ordinary Eclipse steel framed coping saw.


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## jimi43 (3 Jul 2011)

As I mentioned in the Bowsaw thread...a spiral cut blade would turn it into a really useful bit of kit.

I can see why the design is shorter now Andy! New stretcher! Gottit! :wink: 

I'm going to be making a larger bowsaw...(by request) but I think a smaller one might just find a use too!

Jim


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## yetloh (3 Jul 2011)

As said before, it depends what you want it for. I have an Eclipse but very rarely use it because it is too coarse for most of the work I would use it for - fine dovetails. For that I have recently acquired a Knew Concept piercing saw which is expensive but incredibly light and rigid and a joy to use. You can see them here http://www.palmermetals.co.uk/shop/tools/sawframes-blades-and-accessories-1.html

Jim


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## markturner (3 Jul 2011)

hi, yes it was for dovetails. I am currently using a stanley one and find it a bit inaccurate. thanks for the tips, cheers, Mark

edit, incidentally, what's the difference between a piercing saw and a coping saw? Could not see anything called a piercing saw on the palmer metals site. 

Using the stanley saw is also difficult as the blade is thicker than the fine japanese saw I use to do the vertical cuts. The knew concept saws seem to use the same standard blades so I guess I would use the saw to do all the cuts and then tidy with a chisel to the line...


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## jasonB (3 Jul 2011)

The three "jewlers saws" at the bottom of the page are the same thing. This is the traditional style, Dictum also have a nice one

Piercing saw blades come in much finer tpis and they are also not as deep, a typical copingsaw blade is about 3mm but a piercing saw nearer 1 - 1.5mm. This means you can turn a much tighter corner.

The blades do not have pins on teh ends so they can be slipped through fine holes for pierced work where you can't saw in from an edge.

Downside is teh blades are a bit more delicate, thats why I asked what for, you would be forever snapping them doing skirtings etc

Jason


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (3 Jul 2011)

Hi Jim

Your link for the Knew Concepts fretsaw is out-of-date insofar as the saw you link to is the jeweller's version. There is a woodworker's fretsaw that has replaced it. I worked on the design and did the testing, so I can assure you that they are quite different.

For a full run down: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... etsaw.html











Regards from Perth

Derek


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## markturner (3 Jul 2011)

Hi Derek, thanks for the info, , is this the one I need? ( I am after the woodworkers fretsaw package shown at the end of your review)

http://www.palmermetals.co.uk/shop/tool ... clamp.html

Cheers, Mark


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## yetloh (3 Jul 2011)

I wasn't aware of the woodworkers version, but I have this one http://www.palmermetals.co.uk/shop/...llers-saw-5-inch-with-swivel-blade-clamp.html It works extremely well for dovetails and is a lot less expensive than the titanium version. I'm not sure what advantage the woodworkers version would offer but perhaps Derek can enlighten us.

Jim


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## AndyT (3 Jul 2011)

One further thought for anyone trying to design the perfect coping saw. In my experience, especially when using very fine jeweller's blades on metal, the problem is that although you start with a well-tensioned blade, in use the blade heats up. This makes it expand, and go a bit loose. The 'bagginess' of the hot blade makes it easier to catch it in the cut and snap it.

So the problem is to find a tensioning method which won't overtighten a cold blade but will take up the slack as it warms up.

This is less of a problem with the stouter coping saw blades sold for working wood.


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## Peter Sefton (3 Jul 2011)

These fretsaws do look fantastic - far more sophisticated than the ones I use, I have three sizes 70mm, 100mm 150mm (the largest I use for marquetry work).

The small one is my oldest and favorite – I have had it over 20 years and it’s still going strong. I have bought some more recently for my student tool kits from Axminster at about £11.00 each. The handles came off and I had to Araldite them but I know that Workshop Heaven now sell something very similar. If you need to do dovetails in a wide board and your saw frame catches the timber, just use a pair of pliers to twist the blade by 45 degrees and then you can cut all the waste out across the board.

Cheers Peter


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (4 Jul 2011)

yetloh":1dz2w54n said:


> I wasn't aware of the woodworkers version, but I have this one http://www.palmermetals.co.uk/shop/...llers-saw-5-inch-with-swivel-blade-clamp.html It works extremely well for dovetails and is a lot less expensive than the titanium version. I'm not sure what advantage the woodworkers version would offer but perhaps Derek can enlighten us.
> 
> Jim



Hi Jim

There are two versions available, an expensive titanium and a reasonably priced aluminium. I doubt that most could tell the difference. Get the aluminium version. Both come with adjustability for angles and quick-release mechanism. 

On Lee Marshall's recommendation, I am now using the Pegas SK7 blades. They are Swiss-made, and I am getting them from:
Bens Scroll Saw....

http://www.Bens Scroll Saw.com

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## woodbloke (4 Jul 2011)

Peter Sefton":2tmy7fgx said:


> These fretsaws do look fantastic - far more sophisticated than the ones I use, I have three sizes 70mm, 100mm 150mm (the largest I use for marquetry work).
> 
> The small one is my oldest and favorite – I have had it over 20 years and it’s still going strong. I have bought some more recently for my student tool kits from Axminster at about £11.00 each. The handles came off and I had to Araldite them but I know that Workshop Heaven now sell something very similar. If you need to do dovetails in a wide board and your saw frame catches the timber, just use a pair of pliers to twist the blade by 45 degrees and then you can cut all the waste out across the board.
> 
> Cheers Peter


I've got one of the WH fret saws and have been disappointed by it  No matter how hard you try to wind on some pressure to tension the blade, it always seems to be flabby, so I'd definitely be interested in one of the Woodworker's titanium saws...even if they are a bit spendy 

Derek - I can find the titanium saw (linked to in a prior post) but where's the aluminium version please? - Rob


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (4 Jul 2011)

Hi Rob

It is termed, the "woodworker" version.

Try this link: http://www.knewconcepts.com/titanium.php

Woodworker:





5" Woodworker Aluminum with Cam-lever & Swivel Blade Clamps ($95.00)

Titanium:





5" Titanium with Cam-lever & Swivel Blade Clamps ($195.00)

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## GazPal (4 Jul 2011)

My go-to saws for radial & fine work are Eclipse coping and fret saws, a no-name jeweller's saw I "borrowed" from my wife (A professional jeweller) and a couple of wooden bow/turning saws. The pre-tensioned frames on the Eclipse saws tend to negate problems with blades loosening due to heat build up. I've never felt a need to invest in "better" saws as they're more than capable of doing the work demanded of them smoothly and accurately and are well enough made to see someone go from apprentice to retirement age.


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## Racers (4 Jul 2011)

Hi, Gazpal

Can you do this with an Eclipse?






It was done by several people at a bash so its not operator skill.

Pete


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## GazPal (4 Jul 2011)

Racers":3f0hp4gb said:


> Hi, Gazpal
> 
> Can you do this with an Eclipse?
> 
> ...




Yes, I most definitely can and much more smoothly. Can't you?  Although I prefer by buy jig-saws pre-boxed and seldom find any need to produce my own or practice cutting pointless squiggly lines in timber billets/boards, such a - potentially abrasive - question makes me wonder which point you're trying to prove. I'd simply stated my preferred tools (From among the tools I use) and nothing more or less. My tool of choice depends upon the diimension and nature of the medium on which I'm working. 

I use either an eclipse fret saw or my jeweller's saw when crafting ornate lute holes, dovetail or tenon saw when dovetailing and tend to match the tools I use to the work in hand. Zimples. :wink:


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## Racers (4 Jul 2011)

Hi, Gazpal

I always struggled with Eclipse saws in thicker wood, the blades curving like a washing line and having to twist the saw more than needed to change direction. My bowsaw coping saw works much better than an Eclipse.

That bit of wood was cut at speed not paying attention to accuracy and cleanness.


Pete


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## woodbloke (4 Jul 2011)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> It is termed, the "woodworker" version.
> 
> ...


Derek, thanks for the linkies. I've changed over to my old Groz fretsaw from Axminster and even though it's only a cheapie, the tension I can get on fret blade is far higher than the WH saw - Rob


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## GazPal (4 Jul 2011)

Racers":1fhuw2ck said:


> Hi, Gazpal
> 
> I always struggled with Eclipse saws in thicker wood, the blades curving like a washing line and having to twist the saw more than needed to change direction. My bowsaw coping saw works much better than an Eclipse.
> 
> ...



Hi Pete,

One could tell the timber was cut without particular attention to accuracy or tidyness, although it's still possible to cut at speed and with attention to detail.

With heavier/thicker materials I tend to up the ante - tool-wise - and move onto my bow/turning saws using blades matching the degree of finesse or agression required in the cut. With coping saws I tend to set the blade to match variations in cutting direction and let the blade do the work.


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## markturner (6 Jul 2011)

Well my new Knew concept saw arrived today and very nice it is to, thank you guys!! One thing, I was going to order some blades from the site Derek linked, but they are all 5 inch blades, rather than 5 and one eighth as specified by Knew concept, who state clearly that shorter blades will not work, so I am a bit unsure. Can someone confirm the best blades for the saw? 

Cheers, Mark


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## matthewwh (7 Jul 2011)

woodbloke":2vmt6724 said:


> I've got one of the WH fret saws and have been disappointed by it  No matter how hard you try to wind on some pressure to tension the blade, it always seems to be flabby, - Rob



Hi Rob,

I think you may be making the same mistake as I did when I first tried them - i.e. trying to use the tension adjuster to apply the tension rather than adjust it. 

*Install the blade and check that the tension adjuster isn't at one extreme or the other.
*Loosen the top screw. 
*Hold the back upright of the frame like a pistol and press your thumb on the end of the frame to apply the tension.
*Tighten the top screw.
*Adjust the tension with the adjuster to a satisfyingly taut 'ping'.

Here's a couple of videos:

Installing the blade
Tensioning the blade

12.5, 15 and 20tpi skip tooth blades will be available within the next week or two and I'm hoping we will have the Knew Concept ones in shortly too.


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## woodbloke (7 Jul 2011)

Thanks for that Matt, I'll give it a go. Look forward to seeing the 'Knew Concept' saws as well - Rob


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## Scouse (7 Jul 2011)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> 5" Woodworker Aluminum with Cam-lever & Swivel Blade Clamps ($95.00)
> 5" Titanium with Cam-lever & Swivel Blade Clamps ($195.00)



Hi Derek, 

Would you say there was a great deal of difference, ie. $100 worth, between the aluminium and the titanium in terms of strength and reliability long term (weight difference between the metals is not an issue for me)? 

I'm one of those blokes who only likes to buy a tool for work once, and the number of fret saws I've gone through in the last few years is a source of frustration and would probably pay for either one of the above!

Cheers

El.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (7 Jul 2011)

I have not used the aluminium version, only the titanium ones. All three I have were stages in developing the final design. Happily, I did not pay for them. However, if I were buying one, I would consider the aluminium one the better value. From what I understand, the aluminium may not have the extra rigidity of the titanium, but it is very rigid - far more so than anything else on the market. It is also slightly lighter than the titanium version. This is unlikely to be a case where you get second best and feel that it is letting you down.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## bugbear (7 Jul 2011)

From another forum, a similar thread resulted in a post of a previous "engineered" coping saw:

Over on Woodnet, click here 

IIRC Axminster also used to sell this (anyone know for sure?).

IMHO it's related to the Knew Concept in not having a simple bent bar for a body (e.g. Eclipse), but in having a structure from the world of Civil engineering;

The Knew concepts has a lattice (like a tower crane), the ABEL has an I beam (*). Both designs are intended to get more strength and rigidity for a given use of material.

In the present age, I don't know what would be more cost effective - laser/water/plasma cutting sheet material or die casting.

Edit; googling also gave same saw being sold by Christopher Schwarz

Edit; a rather involved google led to this:

STILL on sale in France at 40 Euros

BugBear

(*) actually it's it's an 'inverted T' beam, but I think I just made that up!


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## AndyT (7 Jul 2011)

But is it better than this one?


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## bugbear (7 Jul 2011)

AndyT":pl3idgfl said:


> But is it better than this one?



My almost-famous bowsaw? A little big for dovetail waste;

http://web.archive.org/web/200901140658 ... owsaw.html

BugBear (who'd actually forgotten how many people built from that plan)


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## yetloh (7 Jul 2011)

Scouse":36b5u93i said:


> Would you say there was a great deal of difference, ie. $100 worth, between the aluminium and the titanium in terms of strength and reliability long term (weight difference between the metals is not an issue for me)?
> 
> I'm one of those blokes who only likes to buy a tool for work once, and the number of fret saws I've gone through in the last few years is a source of frustration and would probably pay for either one of the above!



Frankly, in the real world, I find it hard to see the extra value in the titaium version over the aluminium item that I have. I also quite like the red anodised finish which has the added advantage that it does not disappear in the mess of shavings and tools that all too often defines my bench.

Jim


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## markturner (8 Jul 2011)

Very impressed with mine, although I yet to use it on a proper joint, the test cuts I made were very impressive. I have ordered some of the Pegas blades from bens scroll saw as well. Thanks for the info everyone!


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## bugbear (8 Jul 2011)

An alloy "I" beam saw was listed by Axminster in their '97 and '99 catalogues;






This doesn't appear to be the same as the Abel 160 - in particular the T beam section appears to be the other way up. It (was) certainly Cheap enough.

BugBear


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## Woodwould (10 Jul 2011)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> I worked on the design and did the testing, so I can assure you that they are quite different.



According to the Knew web site, what differentiates the woodworker's saw is the un-painted handle!


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (10 Jul 2011)

Woodwould":1gm07d9p said:


> Derek Cohen (Perth said:
> 
> 
> > I worked on the design and did the testing, so I can assure you that they are quite different.
> ...



Hi WW

I will let Lee know that's how it comes across.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## David C (14 Jul 2011)

Yes it is not a coping saw, but the piercing or jewellers saw which Workshop Heaven sell is the only one I am aware of which will take a decent tension.

The tension adjustment screw is missing from all others including the Dictum version.

If this screw is compltely slacked off, while the blade is fitted and tensioned, and then tightened fully, an excellent high tension can be achieved. A considerably higher note than the one on the video.

I use Eclipse 18 TPI fretsaw blades for removing waste in 10 mm thick stuff.

I find it incomprehensible that so many tool sellers choose the simpler and hopelessly unsatisfactory model.
Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

Damn the poster of the Knew concepts titanium saw, I want one...........but am currently resisting temptation.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (15 Jul 2011)

Hi David

Lee (Knew Concepts) has now recommended Pegas SK7 blades. From http://www.Bens Scroll Saw.com

I was using the Eclipse 18 tpi, and in fact gave them to Lee to trial. He is a jeweller not a woodworker, but was quite impressed and subsequently began supplying the fretsaw with the Eclipse. When he switched to the Pegas he sent me a couple. They are streets ahead. Really worth getting.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## David C (15 Jul 2011)

Thanks Derek, 

I will give them a try.

David (jealous)


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## yetloh (15 Jul 2011)

David C":1c9xdk46 said:


> Damn the poster of the Knew concepts titanium saw, I want one...........but am currently resisting temptation.



Sorry about that David, but you know you really have to have one and you would "save" quite a bit if you went fo the aluminium version. I blame it all on David Barron for it was he who showed me his Knew piercing saw.

Jim


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## David C (15 Jul 2011)

Ah, yes. A very bad man


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