# Workshop Design - well it's a build really.



## Dibs-h

After reading countless posts about other peoples workshops and feeling bloody envious at times - I'm having the plans drawn up for mine with the intention of the build starting in Jan 09.

The plan is to build it with a pitched roof, on the end of a single garage utilising the end gable wall. As the front of the garage has a gate blocking off the view into the garden - the workshop is to be 3.0m wide (tad wider than garage) and 10m long.

Single skin blockwork with piers, infill piers with stud\insulation and board over. Have a choice of concrete floor or joists (haven't decided yet). As part part of the floor might be below ground level (the ground slopes down from the end of the garage) might be concrete - ideas\input welcome.

It has to be blockwork, then rendered with limestone chippings and clay tile roof - it's a conservation area and neighbours (although very nice, have covenants on that section of my garden) to match in with house and existing garage.

As the roof will be rafters\purlins - I'm loath to use steel as the 2 purlins will each need to be 10m and that weighs a sh*t load - access is slightly restricted. Was wondering if TGI beams or glulam could be used - struggling to see why not. Any thoughts?

Haven't looked at the span tables yet - will be having a chat with the structural engineer this eve about the sizes required.

I'll post up some piccies in the next day or so.


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## MikeG.

Sounds great!!!
.....except for the width. Three metres less 210 x2 equals a floor width of only 2580, or 8'-5".

Couldn't you build it out of studwork, and then batten out, wire and render? It would look exactly the same from the outside, and save you 200mm inside.....

I am not sure why you need purlins for such a narrow building? Why not just a normal cut roof or trussed roof?

Mike


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## Dibs-h

See what you mean - might make that 3m on the inside then, can't seeing it being an issue.

I would have thought with a pitched roof one would still need purlins, if not using a trussed roof - which I want to stay away from. I'd much rather not use trusses as it would mean that the "collar" effectively reduces the ceiling height down to around 8 foot (eaves will be around 8 foot). I'll have to check the span tables - been ages since I last looked.

I'm building right up against the boundary so would struggle to do anything with that part of the wall that is below the top of the boundary wall.


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## Woody Alan

If you must use purlins I would at least consider two "A" frame type trusses of substantial build at thirds positions to give you the head height and reduce the need for massive purlins. I wouldn't be happy in a building that length without tying the two sides together midpoint anyway, if it isn't trussed.

Alan


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## BradNaylor

Sounds a great size - its about the same as mine; there's two of us each running a cabinetmaking business from it AND we've got a spray booth in there!

However, watch that ceiling height. The bare minimum should be the diagonal of an 8x4 sheet plus a few inches for clearence of your light fittings.

DAMHIK!

Dan


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## Mattty

It sounds great. I wouldn't use a purlin construction myself i'd buy or make raised tie trusses. Mike's advice about width is very good also.

If you go for timber frame construction make sure you set the roof rafters out directly over the studs, i've seen a couple of jobs recently which i would be concerned about.

Good luck

Where in Yorkshire are you?


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## MikeG.

Dibs,

A raised tie on a normal trussed roof is certainly the way I would go.....whether you cut the roof on site yourself or buy pre-made trusses. There is absolutley no need for purlins of any description on such a small and simple roof. 

Mike


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## Dibs-h

Dan - that was the thinking, the eaves will be around 8 foot and I had the 8x4 sheet on a diagonal in mind.

Matty - Bradford way.

Matty\Mike - I did have a look in Trada timber tables and for the clear span around 2.1m, I wouldn't need purlins, but speaking to my Structural Eng chum, he did agree with a local timber supplier that Trusses, either with a traditional tie or a raised tie would be the way to go. Otherwise the lateral thrust wouldn't be restrained.

Although he did suggest that in the past he has solved similar issues with steel beams spliced together. I am loath to use steel though - fire protection and man handling it spring to mind.

Having thought about it - I'm more inclined to go for the raised tie trusses. A local firm quoted me around 1K for 18 of them. They sent me the profile of the truss - so I suppose one could be sneaky and used that - the sides were 7"x2" though

Has anybody made their own raised tie trusses? What connectors have been used?

p.s. Many thanks for the replies!


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## MikeG.

All the time Dibs......... simple M10 bolts will be fine for securing raised ties. Nail the joist in place first, then drill and bolt. easy.

Another tip.........try and design your roof so that your rafters are at 600 centres rather than 400.........that way it is easier to work on them and also acees for storage is better if you leave the rafters open. Personally, I have lined my ceiling with stirling board, and have storage access through the gable........which enables me to have insulation at joist level.

Mike


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## Dibs-h

Mike Garnham":2vynng73 said:


> All the time Dibs......... simple M10 bolts will be fine for securing raised ties. Nail the joist in place first, then drill and bolt. easy.
> 
> Another tip.........try and design your roof so that your rafters are at 600 centres rather than 400.........that way it is easier to work on them and also acees for storage is better if you leave the rafters open. Personally, I have lined my ceiling with stirling board, and have storage access through the gable........which enables me to have insulation at joist level.
> 
> Mike



Mike

Thanks for that. I rang another company and they quoted around £500 all in for the same trusses - bit startling to find such variation in price, some of these companies must think we are made of money.

I did intend to have the trusses at 600 centres - with the bottom tie up 1m from the wall plate level. This would give me a nice vaulted ceiling. The bit extra - above the raised tie - that seems so little, makes you wonder whether you could actually use that for anything useful. The 0.5m is actually from the top of the raised tie to the ridge and considering the "rafters" are in the region of 150mm, one isn't left with a huge amount of space.

To give it that extra security - inclined to sheet the outside with ply - I'm not very comfortable with the idea of some toe-rag pulling a few tiles out and easily making their way thru 600 spaced rafters. Also it should help locking everything together and reduce the lateral thrust at the wall plates.

I estimated that the timber to produce the trusses would be in the region of £150-£200 but did fancy doing it myself - did enjoy redoing the roof on the house itself several years ago. So may not even get pre made trusses, even if they are cheaper.

Also fitting insulation in between the rafters is what I had in mind - Kingspan\Celotex. I've got some Tyvek and laths left over from the house roof.

With respect to the fixings - how many per joint - get the impression it's 1 M10 bolt?

On the pre-made trusses - there is a single vertical piece from the raised collar to the underside of the ridge. Would I be correct in assuming that this too would be needed on site made trusses?

Cheers

Dibs


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## MikeG.

Dibs, 

that single vertical piece to the ridge is a called hanger, and its function is to support the joist to prevent sagging. Given that your span is so small, and the joist won't really be loaded given the dimensions you give, you needn't worry about a hanger.

Having said all that, because your building is on the boundary and over 15 sq. metres, you will require Building Regs approval for this job. The Local Authority will want calcs for the foundations and for the roof.........your friendly structural engineer will come in handy...

This is an obvious candidate for a "Building Notice" rather than "Full Plans Approval".......just be sure to inform the LA before you start work.

Mike


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## Dibs-h

Update - In between the millions of other things that get in the way, finally got the plans submitted and had the Planning Officer out this morning.

Bit of an change on the original idea - which was a 10m x 3m workshop on the end of an existing garage - replacing the garage as well. Thought what the hell, only do it once.

New scheme - new garage 4.2m x 6m with a suspended concrete floor (the land drops off after the end of the garage), giving me a useable basement underneath of approx 6 feet tall. New workshop on the end of the garage - 4.2m x 7.5m.

Thought I'd reduce the workshop length slightly - now that I've also got the basement under the garage.

Hopefully get the permission by mid May, so looking to start the build by the beginning of June.

I'll post a copy of the plans up shortly.


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## wizer

blimey that's quite a project!

Good luck


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## Dibs-h

I'm not to fazed by the project as whole - more the suspended concrete floor that's having a 2 poster car lift bolted to it.

Here a shot of what it will look like from the neighbours side,







The only changes (mid construction) are likely to be the deletion of the door on the end and the internal wall dividing the workshop. From previous experience - far easier to make the final changes as an amendment

And here's the plan view,







The step down from the garage to the workshop is actually in the region of 5 foot, so lowering the floor marginally should get me a basement around 6 foot. Even if it doesn't, should be very useful for strorage.


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## Escudo

Hello Dibs, good luck with your workshop project, sounds great. Lots of hard work though I'm sure.

Hope to follow progress. Cheers Tony.

PS - Don't forget the old pythagoras for the measurement of that 8 x 4


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## Dibs-h

8 x 4 - someone mentioned that before. The roof of the workshop is going to be trusses with the collar being near the top, to ensure at least 8x4 sheets clear on the diagnonal.

Off to get some Rosemary tiles for the roof this eveing - even though planning permission hasn't come thru (the Planner said he disn't see any issues cropping up) - at around £280 for over 4000 tiles is too good to give up especially as it's about 20 miles away.

Just don't look forward to loading, transporting and unloading.


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## Dibs-h

Update - the chap who "sold" me the rosemarys decided he's sell them to someone else. Thankfully no deposit paid nor transport hired! So no neck to wring.

But managed to get the same number - perfect colour match, as opposed to close - from 20 miles the other way, for about the same money. You don't realise just how much space 3,000 tiles take up, most of the patio has disappeared under them

Rang the planners today - PP has been granted, I should have it in writing by Monday morning. By which time the CofE who own next door will have stated in writing the process they want following regarding the drystone boundary wall (i.e. Party Wall).

Will post up pictures as soon as we start with groundworks.


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## head clansman

Hi dibs-h

inconsiderate who ever but that garden wall there :lol: :lol: pity it wasn,t a bit more to the left dam shame that, look forward to follow the build on your shop though .hc 

Ps the boundary wall is it a party wall, or is it yours, is it not possible to build that wall high for just the length of the workshop to gain a bit more width internally in the workshop . :?: :wink:


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## Dibs-h

head clansman":39pwzhls said:


> Hi dibs-h
> 
> inconsiderate who ever but that garden wall there :lol: :lol: pity it wasn,t a bit more to the left dam shame that, look forward to follow the build on your shop though .hc
> 
> Ps the boundary wall is it a party wall, or is it yours, is it not possible to build that wall high for just the length of the workshop to gain a bit more width internally in the workshop . :?: :wink:




All our boundary walls are party walls - with a small exception at the front which is actually mine.

Almost all our walls are dry stone wall - with it being a conservation area - can't see folk being too happy if a section of it gets replaced. Besides I kinda like them.

The workshop will be 3.6m x 7.1m internally - with a storage area underneath the attached garage of approx 3.6m x 5.6m (around 4-5foot tall) - how big do you want it? :wink:


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## Dibs-h

Update - got my planning permission - just shy of the 8 weeks quoted by the planning department and the Management Agents (for next door) came back with acceptable conditions in relation to the dig, and confirmed that the Church Commisoners are happy to give their consent.

It turned out that the wall is actually mine, as confirmed by an extract from the original deeds - circa 1918. But I suppose it's a case of trading some rights for others - i.e. giving next door some say over it's appearance and consulting them, in return for them easing the restrictive covenant on the strip of land on which the workshop\garage is being built.

Had 2 chap in to quote for the groundworks - he seemed interested but never got back to me. The other chap who had been before - quoted a reasonable price, so I asked him back round in the first several days of June - just to go over stuff and make sure there was no mis-understanding.

When asked, 

1. There are 2 buildings?
2. Are you sure you want a Building Regs certificate?

The TV programmes I watch - when they are on - are either Norm (workshop or This Old House) or Holmes on Homes, and as Mike Holmes says "If they say you don't need a permit, walk away."

When this chap started suggesting doing this without involving Building Regs and ignoring the Structural Engineers advice - I thought "no thanks".

That left me stuck thinking WTF now? And the plan had been to break ground on the 1st weekend of June, now 2-3 days away.

Well Ebay came to the rescue, On Sat eve, the following turned up,






Cost £50 for the day & £20 for collection & delivery - fully fuelled up and with a spare jerrycan.

There was a path running down the garden which seemed to have several stone flags, so we thought we'd take them up first. We soon realised that the whole path was stone flags - something I had never realised having lived there for around 10 years - with a thin skim of concrete over the top.






You can just make out the beginning of the path at the bottom of the steps on the right of the picture. It's the darker flags - around 10 inches wide. Awesome find - will be putting them back at the end for the new path.

A friend came round professing to have driven one a fair bit, so we fired it up and got some topsoil removed in about 2 hours. What made me somewhat unhappy was the number of times he struck the drystone wall with the bucket,






That's a picture before any work started - but you can see the wall. I realised due to some eye condition he has - keratoconus, his perception of depth can be poor.

So on Sunday morning at 09.30 - I never get up that early on a Sunday, I got on the digger, reasoning that having driven forklift trucks a lot in the past - it couldn't be any more difficult, so after a few hours,






And then after a few more hours later ended up with this,






The topsoil etc. removed from the dig will just be spread round the rest of the garden to level it out - it's a bit unlevel and bumpy.

That's the base for the workshop on the whole. Even though the site has been cleared to the back of the existing garage. The plan is to build the workshop first - empty out the garage first - demolish it and then build on the workshop.

The white line marks out the approx footprint of the workshop - 7.5m long by 4m wide, and it will be adjacent to the boundary wall.

I put up a string line - to get an idea of how much of a "cut" was required to get it reasonably level - or at least minimise the "fill" at the bottom.

The digging stops short of the boundary wall - the advice from the engineer has been to do r\c slap with integrated groundbeams, the one nearest to the boundary wall to be stepped back 0.5m, with the slab cantilevered over the beam.

The next picture shows the stepped dig a bit better,






Standing on the white line, a part of which is showing in the picture above (at the bottom left) - i.e. the separating wall between the garage and workshop, and facing the back of the existing garage, shows,






shows the height of the existing garage basement\pit to be now around 6 feet. So this is making me seriously considering dropping the floor in the new garage, i.e. make the foundations lower than those of the workshop by say 2 feet - to get a full basement under the garage of say 6 to 6.5 feet. The top of the opeining at the rear of the existing basement is at head height - i.e. 6 feet high, so I am optimistic it should be manageable.

Now it's just a case of "fettling" to get things a bit more level and marking out and excavating for the groundbeams. Will try it by hand - they need to be 18 inches deep, if it seems too much like hard work - I'll get the digger back in.

The following picture shows the remainder of the garden - so SWMBO and the kids still have most of it left,






Now for some advice - the original plans had been to build it in concrete block, single skin with piers say every 2m. Now the length of the building is 7.5m long and the width is 4m and I was planning on using raised tie trusses. With stud infill between the piers and some insulation.

My engineer chum is suggesting that I build the walls by laying the blocks on their side - i.e. a wall 9 inches wide. Something about being better able to resist the forces from the trusses - I can see what he means - a wall 9 inches thick would result in a more stable building, but the question I have is that would my original construction method result in an unstable building? In the workshop I am willing to lower the truss ties so that I can clear a 8x4 sheet on a diagonal and nothing more, resulting in the thrust on the wall being less than if the tie was as high as possible.

Although this will be the scenario for the garage - I would need the trusses to be somewhat higher.

On a related note - I bought approx 3500 Rosemary roof tiles for < £400 all in, so pleased with that, considering local salvage yards were quoting me £250 per 1,000 tiles plus delivery. Plus the colour match is spot on and includes enough halfs and tile & halfs to do the job.

p.s. I've never excavated footings or done any building on this scale, so any advice would be greatly appreciated. If you see anything in the pictures that could be better, etc. the advice would be much appreciated.


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## CWatters

If Building control are involved (they should be if <1m to the boundary) then they may want the insulation warpped around the piers as well. 

If the wall is 7.5 meters long I guess you may get away with only one pier in the middle. Have a chat with your SE.

Make sure he knows you want an open roof space. An alternative to a collar beams would be to install a structural ridge beam supported on gable ends to stop the spreading effect of the rafters. In effect the rafters would hang from the ridge rather than rest on the walls. Instead of just nailing them to the ridge they have to be strapped together.







Also check rafter span tables for size of rafter required without a purlin


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## Dibs-h

With the door in the middle - I was thinking of putting one pier either side of the workshop door and one on each side of both windows - giving 6 in total.

One on either side of the door as I'm not very comfortable with fitting a door into a single skin of blockwork, with 1000's of pounds of equipment\tools on the other side.

And sort of the same notion for the windows - and it would would allow me to fit stone cills to match the house and have the window set slightly further back in the opening. I know 6 piers might be slighty excessive - but I wouldn't have thought it would add much time\cost to the build.

As for the rear wall - was thinking of putting around 4 piers in that. I'll work out tomorrow the min height I require in the workshop & see what the truss firm have to say.

Cheers for the suggestion - I'll have a chat with the SE and see what he says. Plan B was to have 2 trusses - spaced at 1/3 & 2/3 of the length with collar ties at the lowest point as opposed to being raised.


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## Shadowfax

[quote said:


> CWatters":3dlcevh6]If Building control are involved (they should be if <1m to the boundary) then they may want the insulation warpped around the piers as well.



As you are building in blockwork your workshop will be substantially non-combustible so you do not need to build more that a metre from the boundary. Building Regulations only specify that figure for a combustible structure.

I don't know what you will be doing but we might as well all be clear on this.

It is looking good so far. I'm getting jealous already!

SF


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## Dibs-h

Did around 3 hours on Sunday eve - the ground is no level to within +\-3 inches. I decided to call it quits at that point, after constantly telling myself it wasn't a table top or something & didn't need to be perfectly level.

It wasn't exactly a walk in the park - but didn't feel the need to get the digger back.

I'll be having a go digging out for one of the ground beams this evening - that might change the perspective on the digger.

I don't mind getting it in - but this is free exercise and the tum does need to go, took long enough to get rid of the man-boobs & dear God, wouldn't want them back, and the tum can't stay.

Besides - each trip up and down next doors drive and across their garden, I get the feeling that these favours are to be used lightly, there's always payback.

I'll post up some more piccies after this evenings digging.

For the r\c slab - the local Builders merchants does the type of mesh required - however for the groundbeams I suspect I will need some sort of "cage" when you look down the end of it. Any suggestions on suppliers? Or does one DIY?


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## Dibs-h

Did some digging last night - completely shattered. I have 2 pairs of the same model of trainers (slightly different colour for each pair) - I was that shattered, I never noiced that the left one was from Pair A and the right one from Pair B. 

I decided to dig one of the shorter trenches,






The ground beam is approx 450 wide and 450 deep, so thought I'd give it a bash.

Not realised I must have a quarry that no has discovered - here's what came out of the trench,






Here's it from a wider shot,






Not bad for 2.5 hours work.

The original plan had been to use the wheelbarrow - but the combination of flat tyre and overloading - I just thought sod it - can't be bothered, something for another day.

I've got the SE popping round tonight - hopefully should have the spec for the ground beam cages and slab mesh, along with better idea of the pour sequence.

I've also been sent in the direction of a local Concrete Reinforcement suppliers - looks like all the reinforcement, etc should be no more than £200 delivered - so quite relieved.

Got the B\C inspector popping round 1st thing Friday morning as well. The plan is to get everything ready for the pour by end of week 3 of June (give or take a few days) - and with the reinforcement people quoting a leadtime of several days - good chance of getting there.

Anyone any idea of how long one is supposed to let concrete set before either building on it or pouring the next stage (plan is to do the groundbeams 1st, then pour the slab)?


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## wizer

Looking good, hows you back?? :lol: :lol:


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## Dibs-h

wizer":33ijwsw9 said:


> Looking good, hows you back?? :lol: :lol:



My back hasn't been good for the last several years and on the recent Bank Holiday - the muscles in the lower back spasmed causing me to freeze and stay put for 45 mins which wasn't any fun. It took almost 2 weeks for my left stride to return to normal - it got kinda shortened.

But my problems are muscle related - so whilst it was sore last night (2 Ibuprofens + 2 paracetamol afterwards), today it's feels very good - alomost normal.

Lord knows how it will feel tomorrow (after tonights session)?

Off to see the Chiro in a bit today as well - not 'cos of the digging, but more to do about the "freeze" on the Bank Holiday.


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## wizer

Take care mate. I advanced my problems whilst house bashing over the past 5yrs. Rome wasn't built in a day.


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## Dibs-h

wizer":3k1w1b8k said:


> Take care mate. I advanced my problems whilst house bashing over the past 5yrs. Rome wasn't built in a day.



I was going to say you have no idea how careful one has become with respect to the back - but reading the other thread about dodgy backs - I'd say you do.

Stuff I would have done before - not anymore. Thankfully I don't have any skeletal issues, the issues are entirely muscle based. Extremely tight hamstrings and quads, combined with water poor core muscle strength.

The yoga is helping immensly with the flexibility and going to sort out some sort of regime to improve the core muscle strength.

Now it's taking time out for R&R - more like maintenance to be honest. Chiro, monthly for a deep tissue massage of the back - gives a new meaning to "getting the elbow", and visiting Harrogate's Turkish baths which aren't too far. But it all starts to suck money and time.


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## Dibs-h

Update.

*Wed*

Got the old measuring tape out and realised that I hadn't quite cleared enough of the site, so rather than digging another trench - shifted some of the existing spoils and cleared another 4m x 1m section at the end. This time I made sure I overcleared by 0.5m.






You can see the extra bit - the surface is a slightly darker colour.

*Thurs*

Got going around 4pm - with my son thinking it was fun climbing the "mountains" in the garden (thankfully at 7yrs old - could just be left to it till his mother came home an hr later). Measured everything around 5 times from every conceivable point just to make sure I didn't dig stuff up in the wrong place. End result,






Finished around 8pm. It's not quite to the final depth - I'll do teh final "fettling" after all 4 are dug.

The "quarry" is getting bigger,






There's a nother one at the other end - and that's just the stone from the last metre of trench and it's not even at full depth!






*Fri*

Had the B\C chap out along with the SE. B\C want it to go thru - so the SE will be doing the Building Notice asap and the inspector will be out in a weeks time when the steelwork is in and ready to pour.

The B\C chap did say that it would make a nice bungalow in the future for someone. So that's got me think of whether to ensure the construction comes up to the level of a dwelling or not. I'll be redoing the costings and if the costing is marginally more - then I'm inclined to go for it. We may never do it - but if we ever sold, I can imagine it would of interest to someone wanting a granny flat or thereabouts.

Tonight - hopefully be digging the 2nd short run.


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## Dibs-h

*Fri, eve*

Didn't do anything - wifey person went out visiting friends.

*Sat*

Started at around mid-day and kept going till the eveing. managed to get all the way round. Thankfully the trench near the wall is only 12" deep as opposed to 18" on the garden side.






By the boundary wall - the slab is likely to be cantilevered by almost a metre.






I was shattered at the end - to say the hands were blistered is putting it mildly.

*Sun*

Now came the time to get everything to the right depth, width and level ('ish). Got a water level and decided to do the long trench (by the garden side) first. Decided to take it a little easier so only got that one done,






I'm hoping to get the rest done over the course of the week. It was suggested by the SE to use a trench rammer\wacker to comapct the base of the trenches prior to anything. Rang round the local hire shops - most don't have any available - all out apprently. Even if they did - it's £50 for the day & £100 for the week, all plus VAT.

Looked on Fleebay & bought a ex-hire one for £100 and reasonably local too.


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## Dibs-h

Over the course of the week I got the trenches cut to the final width and depth having checked for level etc.

Not exactly super acurate - but used 4 stakes in the corners with string (reasonably taught & a line level) to get an idea of where shuttering would be required and how much fill under the slab element,






The SE came out on Sat afternoon and suggested cutting out more on the 2 long sides, so that at least 0.5m of rebar extends into these bits (behind shuttering) - so that when the foundations are done for the garage - the 2 lots can be tied together. 

Here you can see the extra bits,






Then out with the wacker and compressed the base of the trench. I did end up spraying the trenches and sides with a little water, just to keep the dust down.






The SE provided a bar schedule for the reinforcement, so that will be getting paid for tomorow and delivered on Wed - so will probably spend the rest of the week assembling that.

In the last 2 pictures you can see the large Hilti breaker. That made light work of the extra trench bits. Like a . - I'd completely forgotton I had one. It would have been so much easier to use than a bloody pickaxe. 

Live and learn I suppose.


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## billybuntus

excellent update as usual, keep it up I'm really enoying the detail. Right up my street 8)


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## Dibs-h

Update - ordered the steel yesterday for the foundations yesterday according to bar schedule provided by the SE, it arrives this afternoon.

Rang round - substantial price variations, makes you wonder whether the smaller firms are actually using the larger firms and effectively "drop-shipping".

Mesh, rebar, shear links and a few other shapes along with 2 bags of double cover spacers and a roll of tie wire - grand total of £435.

Thats's just for the workshop - the garage is likely to be double that.

For those amongst us that have assembled steel on site - is there a specific way of tying the wire? Or just a case of tied sufficiently so that it holds togther?

*Edit* - just found this, http://www.wikihow.com/Tie-Rebar


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## Dibs-h

Update - the steel turned up as stated,






Got slightly diverted as a neighbour turned up in a panic - water shooting out everywhere in their utility room - somehow a washing m\c valve (hot feed no longer used) had turned on and the little plastic "handle" snapped off. Suspect someone had brused past it. So thankfully having a spare valve in the plumbing toolbox, replace the knackered one. I valve, 5 mins and some very grateful neighbours.

Bizarre, when she ran over, her husband had told her I wouldn't be in, and she said she'd try anyway. If it hadn't been for the steel delivery - I wouldn't have been home - how's that for coincidence.

I'd already taken the shear links and z bars round the back.

Spent about 4 hours on Thursday evening assembling the 1st cage, thank God the the weather has cooled. Had the sun in my face all the time except for the last 20 mins. Here's the end result,






On with the rest tonight and the weekend. I'm hoping to get the shuttering in place (where it requires it) and get some type 1 down on the top and compacted, before doing the z bars, as they might make it difficult to do if fitted 1st.


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## MikeG.

Dibs,

is this the same project we've been discussing in another thread?

If so, the drawing you showed seemed to have the flank wall hard up to the boundary wall........indeed, it looked as though the workshop wall overlapped the garden wall slightly.

Here, the trench seems to be a metre or so away from the wall. What am I looking at?

Mike


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## Dibs-h

Mike

It is the same project. Because I wanted the workshop up against the boundary wall, but not wanting to have to undermine\underpin it - we went for a cantilevered slab.

Hopefully the following should show\explain it better,






Dibs


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## sometimewoodworker

Dibs-h":2odi120c said:


> Update - the steel turned up as stated,
> 
> 
> 
> Spent about 4 hours on Thursday evening assembling the 1st cage, thank God the the weather has cooled. Had the sun in my face all the time except for the last 20 mins. Here's the end result,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On with the rest tonight and the weekend. I'm hoping to get the shuttering in place (where it requires it) and get some type 1 down on the top and compacted, before doing the z bars, as they might make it difficult to do if fitted 1st.



:x Sorry to rain on your parade but.

Your cage looks as if it is too wide for the trench it is in you need at least 2cm clearence on all sides otherwise the rebar will rust and breakup your foundations. 

An example is here.






In this pic you can see the cage is suspended. In the next you can see the spacers keeping the cage centred.


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## Dibs-h

A few place may need the odd bit of fettling - but the cage actually needs to be lifted up, which should improve clearance as the sides are a little sloped.

The slope down between the nearest side (bottom of picture) and the far side (top of picture) is 100mm, requiring the far end to be lifted by 100mm.

The trench is supposed to be 450 wide and the cage is 370 wide - leaving 40mm cover all round. I'm confident that once the cage is "levelled" there will be at least 40mm cover all round.

I am intending to put some longer vertical lengths in every so often - say around 0.5m tall, to centre the cages and minimise movement, but also to serve something inidcate depth for the pour. These would be driven below the depth of the trenches.

The plan is\was to build the 2 long cages first - level them in relation to the trenches and to each other, then build the shorter two tying them all together. Then drive in the 0.5m verticals every so often to centre the cages and to serve as depth guides. Although these will probably have to be driven in, before the 4 corners are "knitted" together.


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## Dibs-h

Update - I'm somewhat shattered, but fair bit of progress. As SometimeWoodworker pointed out - trench width. At 1st it did look as if raising the cages would solve the issue of maintaining at least 40mm cover all round, perhaps with a little fettling of the trenches - it also became instantly apparent that life would be massively easier, pulling the cage out 1st.

So a mate who came round on Sat at 08:00 - man that was so early - to help me move the mesh from round the front to the rear - before 2m3 of type 1 got parked on it, grabbed on end, me the other and out it came.

So after several hours - all four trenches were a little wider. Had the SE round, he seemed happy with everything. Assembled all the cages - wired together in the corners, and even got some shuttering in place, and some type 1 down. Just need to add some more ply (or something) to extend the shuttering down in 1 or 3 places and add some more on the outside of the trenches.

Here's a piccy of progress upto last night - around 10pm,






I used some engineering bricks in places to get stuff reasonably level - but chatting to the SE he mentioned that the concrete would be breached in places due to doing this - but he didn't feel it was a problem.

But got me thinking - will be popping by wickes or something and getting around 10-15 concrete paving blocks - they're 50mm thick and with the concrete spacers I have, should give me the 100m and 150 lift (dug out to bloody much) I require. Along with being able to suspend the cages in place by using a 3x2 offcut across the trench where shuttering is both on the outside of the trench and on the inside.

My arms look like I've gone 10 rounds with a demented cat - scratched is putting it politely from assembling the cages insitu and worse the bloody shear links - thats the Z bars you might see poking out. Well at least it's done so far.

The B\C inspector is coming at 12 tomorrow - hopefully do the pour on Sat am. That gives me the rest of this week to finish the shuttering and double check everything (and the triple check it again) and make sure the concrete poker drive unit works.


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## Dibs-h

Update - replaced the engineering bricks with a combination of concrete paving blocks and the proper concrete spacers, as well a combination of eng bricks and the concrete spacers. Dug out slight too much in a few places.  

B\C Inspector seemed happy with things.

Got the poker drive unit working and had it running for 30 mins or so on a few evenings - just to make sure I didn't have problems with it on the day.

Measured the trenches multiple times in numerous places and the volume worked out to 5.8m3, at which point I ordered 6.5m3 - thinking that the trenches were hardly perfect and better to have a little over than too little.

Booked the concrete pump for Sat 11am. They finished early at a previous job, so turned up at 10.30, with the concrete truck turning up 30 mins later.

All done in about 60 mins. 







I then spent a little time vibrating the concrete and then just smoothed the surface down a little. As it was a very sunny day - sprayed it with a little water 2 or 3 times over the duration of the day.

Sun - struck the shuttering. Thankfully it came away very easily - even though I hadn't applied anything to the timber.






Then shifted the remaining 1m3 of type from around the front and levelled the base for the slab.






That's where I left it last night. Now it's just a case of digging out\down the strip between the boundary wall\ground beam for the cantilevered bit and install the mesh and lay the first course of blocks to shutter for the slab.


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## Dibs-h

Progress - or some to be honest.

The SE wanted a layer of concrete putting down onto the hardcore - 2" was suggested and mixed on site would be fine.

Ended up laying it over a few days - just didn't have the time to do it in 1 go. Also made the mistake of taking the mixer down to the "site". It was fine getting it down there, getting it back up was something else.






Now comes the interesting bit - effectively undermining the boundary wall as I dig right up against it. I've done a few test "digs" - at both ends and the middle of where I'll be undermining it.






At the bottom the base of the ball is approx 6" higher than the groundbeam and at the top it's approx 18" - i.e. that's the amount by which it will be undermined.

Now the plan is to use 4"x2" as shoring back to the other "bank", 1 every metre top (i'sh) and bottom of the wall - using scaffolding boards at both ends to spread the loads.

The wall is mine, so although the neighbours might not be too impressed if it collapses and I'll have to spend money I don't want to, to have it rebuilt - but I suppose it's about measured risks.

Now the choice is to underpin the boundary wall completely - or to rely on the shoring until the slab is poured and then the return up, which will effectively be a retaining wall.

Any suggestions? 

My gut feeling is to shore the wall and as I dig along the boundary, underpin it, but not necessarily in the traditional manner - but to use more drystone walling (or concrete blocks, eng bricks or whatever fits\works) to bridge the gap between the base of the wall and the subsoil.

I don't really want to underpin the full width of the drystone wall - it's almost 2 foot wide - I'm more inclined to underpin the skin on my side. Is this a goer or am I asking for trouble?


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## miles_hot

Dibs-h":361rgv71 said:


> I don't really want to underpin the full width of the drystone wall - it's almost 2 foot wide - I'm more inclined to underpin the skin on my side. Is this a goer or am I asking for trouble?



God knows I am no expert but wouldn't that cause one side to be more solidly held in place than the other. Thus when the ground changes in moisture / moves for any reason the underpinned skin section would be held whilst the rest moved? Whilst it is a dry stone wall and thus, I guess, able to move a little within itself this would seem a bad thing from the utterly layman / silly person point of view??

Mind you digging under 2' of rubble could give it's own issues I guess - certainly the builders did everything possible to avoid digging under our foundations which are rubble unless it was absolutely necessary

Miles


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## Dibs-h

miles_hot":2e7gb8gs said:


> God knows I am no expert but wouldn't that cause one side to be more solidly held in place than the other. Thus when the ground changes in moisture / moves for any reason the underpinned skin section would be held whilst the rest moved? Whilst it is a dry stone wall and thus, I guess, able to move a little within itself this would seem a bad thing from the utterly layman / silly person point of view??
> 
> Mind you digging under 2' of rubble could give it's own issues I guess - certainly the builders did everything possible to avoid digging under our foundations which are rubble unless it was absolutely necessary
> 
> Miles



It wouldn't be a case of one skin being more rigidly held than the other. It would be a case of one skin starting lower down than the other, but still starting in the traditional manner, i.e. stone on soil.

If I don't underpin in the traditional manner (i.e. with shuttering and concrete - which would potentially make one more rigid) then the wall should still be able to move to cope with minor movements.

All advice more than welcome. BTW - I spoke in depth with the SE and after having checked the soil conditions in the 3 test holes - he was of the belief that we should haven't have any issues with the wall and any movement, but it was better to err on the side of caution - i.e. shoring and extending the base of the wall downwards.

Might do a test section - i.e. extend the wall downwards with stone as oposed to concrete - and see how it goes.


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## RogerS

Did I miss it or how are you going to clear the spoil? Faced with a similar situation, we hired a tracked barrow, all the spoil went into that and it was power-barrowed out to the road, dumped, then we got the grabhire out. That meant we only manually handled the spoil the once ie from ground and into the barrow thingy.


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## Dibs-h

RogerS":3c946yh7 said:


> Did I miss it or how are you going to clear the spoil? Faced with a similar situation, we hired a tracked barrow, all the spoil went into that and it was power-barrowed out to the road, dumped, then we got the grabhire out. That meant we only manually handled the spoil the once ie from ground and into the barrow thingy.



Top soil - which is the big pile at the bottom of the site, that's staying. It'll just be spread around and should get rid of the undulations in the garden.

The rest - 2 choices. 1 keep them or gid rid of them.

The garden is unlevel - I suspect somewhere in the region of 0.5m lower at the bottom, so the likely plan will be to scrape the topsoil from the bottom half of the garden, spread the rest of the spoils around, compact it and then spread the topsoil back.

If for whatever reason the spoils have to go, then at the bottom of the garden, at the other corner, there is a 5-6 foot gap in the leylandii and a drop of 5 feet into the playground of the private primary school. I think the headmistress (& owner) would be ameniable to a skip or 5 being placed there and filled from my side. Would be easier than going up 5 steps and then along the drive.


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## trousers

Dibs
Do you have to undermine the wall at all?
You obviously have to dig away soil up to the wall to create the space for the cantilever, but why go excavating in under the wall?
The limited amount of soil thats left adjacent to the wall is doing little or nothing to support it now, so digging it away should present no problem, but you could brace the wall as suggested for peace of mind. If your trial digs and SE suggest the ground under the wall is well consolidated then in space of time it takes you to get the concrete in should not affect the wall.
Then prepare the site for the cantilever and pour the concrete right up against the wall.
No? Have I missed something?


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## Dibs-h

trousers":33zvoccw said:


> Dibs
> Do you have to undermine the wall at all?
> You obviously have to dig away soil up to the wall to create the space for the cantilever, but why go excavating in under the wall?
> The limited amount of soil thats left adjacent to the wall is doing little or nothing to support it now, so digging it away should present no problem, but you could brace the wall as suggested for peace of mind. If your trial digs and SE suggest the ground under the wall is well consolidated then in space of time it takes you to get the concrete in should not affect the wall.
> Then prepare the site for the cantilever and pour the concrete right up against the wall.
> No? Have I missed something?



Bizarre just how exactly it turned out like your post.

I placed a scaffolding board at the top of the wall - just below the tops and length of 8"x2" at the base of the spoils (come in handy for something) and then rammed in lengths of 4"x2" every metre or so. 

Spoils - That's the mixture of clay and stone out of the trences and not the topsoil. I also plan to place a load of concrete blocks at the base of the shoring.

Will do similar at the base of the wall this evening.

The bottom 1/3 of the wall, it's base appeared barely 6" inches above the level of the ground beams, so dug out the soil next to the wall and laid sown some Type 1.






Tamped it down with a tamping tool that Wickes sell - weight of a medium sledgehammer, but with a 6"x6" square base.. Didn't want to risk getting the trench rammer out and affecting the wall.

Laid a bed of 2" concrete down and then placed some shuttering against the wall and poured in about 2" thickness (8" high) of concrete. I doubt the 2" of concrete will do much from a structural perspective, but should give it some protection from the sun and rain. The slab and cantilever is likley to be poured on the 1st Sat of August, so almost 2 weeks.

I've got to get the mesh down "L" bars for the cantilever and the 1st course of blocks down (to also act as the shuttering for the slab).**

Assuming the weather is ok this eveing - looking to repeat the same on the middle third of the wall.

One decision I have arrived at - the drystone wall runs the full length of the garage\workshop - is that the 6m or so of wall alongside the garage basement will be dismantled prior to that bit being built.

It'll add a little time and expense to the build but the wall isn't straight and has been affected over the years by next door increasing the soil level on their side. This should also make life easier digging out for the basement under the garage.

I forgot to take some pictures of the shoring etc. I'll post some more up tomorrow, after this evening's exertions.

** - any tips\advice most welcome. Never laid a block in my life.


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## trousers

Dibs
I assume you are laying 1 course of 100mm conc blocks upright (ie 225 high)?
As it's below DPC your mortar should be 4 parts sand to one of cement. Mix with water and a plasticiser (from builders merchant) to a consistency that will almost stay on your trowel when you tip it up. Remember, when the mix is turning in the mixer, the longer you leave it turning, the runnier it will become. Don't mix too much more than you can sensibly use in a couple of hours.
Lay a block at each end of the concrete (assuming you've set out where your corners are going to be) and run a line between them. Fill in the rest of the row using the (tight) line as a guide for straight and level.
Easy innit


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## Dibs-h

trousers":3tgv8mcr said:


> Dibs
> I assume you are laying 1 course of 100mm conc blocks upright (ie 225 high)?
> As it's below DPC your mortar should be 4 parts sand to one of cement. Mix with water and a plasticiser (from builders merchant) to a consistency that will almost stay on your trowel when you tip it up. Remember, when the mix is turning in the mixer, the longer you leave it turning, the runnier it will become. Don't mix too much more than you can sensibly use in a couple of hours.
> Lay a block at each end of the concrete (assuming you've set out where your corners are going to be) and run a line between them. Fill in the rest of the row using the (tight) line as a guide for straight and level.
> Easy innit



Yes it will be 1 course of 100mm conc blocks upright.

Plasticiser - I think I've seen the stuff in Wickes, will get some. Is it just for below DPC or the lot?

Setting out - the ground beams are slightly oversized, so will probably set out the corners later in the week.

Mix - I have a Belle minimix 140, so the max amount one can mix is about 4 buckets of sand and 1 of OPC. How far do you think that would go and how long would it stay workable? Might start off with half a load and see how that goes.


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## trousers

Use plasticiser for all your blockwork. Use 6 sand/1 cement above DPC.
4 buckets of sand/1 bucket cement is about a barrowfull. I should start with half that and see how you get on. Less waste when it Zilch-Wedlock down just after you start :roll: The stronger the mix the faster it will go off.
Set out your corners first, as you say, and check everything is right for square (check diagonals, etc) and for level. Use pegs and string to help you see where the blockwork is to go.
If you start right you will carry on alright. Its all in the preparation.


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## Dibs-h

trousers":2ri61iew said:


> Use plasticiser for all your blockwork. Use 6 sand/1 cement above DPC.
> 4 buckets of sand/1 bucket cement is about a barrowfull. I should start with half that and see how you get on. Less waste when it Zilch-Wedlock down just after you start :roll: The stronger the mix the faster it will go off.
> Set out your corners first, as you say, and check everything is right for square (check diagonals, etc) and for level. Use pegs and string to help you see where the blockwork is to go.
> If you start right you will carry on alright. Its all in the preparation.



Your advice is much appreciated. I'll have a bit of a ponder on the setting out this evening as I'm digging out along the boundary wall (middle 1/3) and adding the extra bit of shoring.

Part of me is thinking that I should have done the 1st row of blocks prior to putting the shoring in place as it will slightly impede access to the gardenside wall.

However the shoring is at least 18" above the groundbeam and is only along 5m (out of 7.5m) of the length and there is reasonable space to move around - so might just leave it. Besides good weather might be in short supply and as it looks ok this evening will just carry on.

When I've set out (or attempted to) I'll post a few piccies - just to make sure things go to plan. :shock:


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## Dibs-h

Update.

Shored up the wall as best as I could,






Perhaps a bit overboard or under board - but it seems to be holding. Lets just say the headphones stayed in the house whilst I dug upto the drystone wall.

Repeated the process on the remaining 2/3 of the wall - that was done to the bottom end, i.e. lay 2" of concrete down, shutter up against the exposed soil and pour 2-4" of concrete.






Will strike the shuttering tonight, move the piles of block sitting on the groundbeam, clean up and dry lay one course of blocks down to see the levels etc. Not to mention - try and set out. If all goes well - lay down the blocks Tues evening proper.

Then hoping to get the mesh in place Wed\Thurs evening and get the slab poured on Sat am. I am so looking forward to no more bleeding digging! For a while anyway.

I'll definitely post up some pictures after tonight's little exertions - better have any mistakes pointed out 1st rather than after the blocks go down proper.


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## Dibs-h

Update: Got the 1st course of blockwork in place and mesh (some) roughly in situ.

The setting out took bloody ages - especially when you are on your own and have to walk round the whole lot - shoring gets in the way sometimes.






I had string lines all over the place - running down the sides, tops - everywhere. The diagonals where about 5mm different to each on over 8m. I decided to leave them at that.






The bits from the blockwork to the boundarywall - I'm going to shutter that.

You might notice - I had the lines around the corners - so the corners got done last. Bit unorthodox but seemed to work.

Now there is a slight little issue - the surface of the ground beams is not perfectly level. The bottom end of the site is approx 20mm lower than the top with the discontinuity occuring in the middle. Didn't spot that till half the long side of blocks were down.

I should be able to loose this in the next several courses. The concern is that if nothing is done now, when I pour the slab on Sat - this discontinuity will also be transferred to the slab as the blockwork will end up being used to level the slab.

Any suggestions?

My 1st idea is to mix some more mortar (4:1) and lay a bed (upto 20mm) where required and level it off. That should set by tomorrow (when the concrete is being poured) and then if I use the top of this to level the slab - there shouldn't be an issues. If I do this - when laying the next set of courses - will there being any issue with a bed of mortar between 2 adjacent courses being so thick, i.e. 20mm + 10mm?

Idea 2 was to lay something ontop of the blockwork where necessary - say some 3"-4" wide timber, having run it thru the bandsaw to give me that wedge shape (I suspect only 3m max should be req'd). Which will allow me to level the top of the slab but then remove this timber and then lose the "unlevel-ness" in the blockwork in the next 2-3 courses.

Timewise I suspect both approaches would take me the same length of time.

This evening - cut the mesh to length\width and fit. B\C is popping round this lunchtime. The steelwork isn't entirely complete, but the concrete is happening no matter he says - I'll take some pictures for him.


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## trousers

Dibs

Is the slab going to be the finished floor? If not, are you are going to put a sand and cement screed on it with a damp proof membrane between? You could achieve level when you screed it in that case, and not worry too much now, just adjust the blockwork level over the first 3 or 4 courses as you build.
Another suggestion, buy a set of brick pins and a line (cheap). When you do your blocklaying, you must get into the swing of building the corners up first, upright with a spirit level (and level across to the other corners). Use the line stretched between the top of the corner blocks to guide you when you fill in the rows.
Sorry if you already know this.


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## Dibs-h

trousers":v7g3u82l said:


> Dibs
> 
> Is the slab going to be the finished floor? If not, are you are going to put a sand and cement screed on it with a damp proof membrane between? You could achieve level when you screed it in that case, and not worry too much now, just adjust the blockwork level over the first 3 or 4 courses as you build.
> Another suggestion, buy a set of brick pins and a line (cheap). When you do your blocklaying, you must get into the swing of building the corners up first, upright with a spirit level (and level across to the other corners). Use the line stretched between the top of the corner blocks to guide you when you fill in the rows.
> Sorry if you already know this.



All advice is more than welcome!!

Yes an internal screed is going down over some insulation and membrane.

After having thought about it for a bit - the easiest solution is to place some timber (8"x2"), that I used previosuly as shuttering and will screw it to the outside of the long side from 1/2 waydown, to the bottom and along the bottom end - 1" or so higher than the blockwork.

This will give the me the correct level needed - so the concrete will breach the blockwork where the top of the blocks is about 1" too low. Then tamp down to that.

God - I'm shattered from laying all the mesh down. Had to trim the concrete that I shuttered against the base of the boundary wall - when I realised that there was nothing on that side to use as a reference when leveling the slab. Will be up at the crack of dawn to tie the mesh to the Z bars in the ground beams and tie the L bars for the return up (at the boundary wall). Not to mention the shuttering.

Concrete\pump is booked for 10:45.

Any advice for the slab interms of tamping\finishing off?


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## trousers

Dibs

Really think you're worrying about the concrete level too much.
You are only going to be able to move around 3 sides of the pour anyway, and with all that propping in place you are going to struggle to finish the concrete any sense before it starts going off, especially if you are on your own.
I would get it tamped up as best you can up to the height of the blockwork as it is.
As well as having to faff around screwing timber to your blockwork, remember that concrete contains 20mm aggregate (unless you've specified otherwise) and you will be attempting to finish over the top of the blockwork if you do it your way from 25mm down to nothing. Very difficult to do, as the larger stones won't go and you will be left with thin cement which will dry v quickly as the blocks suck the water out, and will therefore weaken it and it will easily crack away.
You can adjust the floor level with your screed later on.


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## Dibs-h

trousers":2oo7oy00 said:


> Dibs
> 
> Really think you're worrying about the concrete level too much.
> You are only going to be able to move around 3 sides of the pour anyway, and with all that propping in place you are going to struggle to finish the concrete any sense before it starts going off, especially if you are on your own.
> I would get it tamped up as best you can up to the height of the blockwork as it is.
> As well as having to faff around screwing timber to your blockwork, remember that concrete contains 20mm aggregate (unless you've specified otherwise) and you will be attempting to finish over the top of the blockwork if you do it your way from 25mm down to nothing. Very difficult to do, as the larger stones won't go and you will be left with thin cement which will dry v quickly as the blocks suck the water out, and will therefore weaken it and it will easily crack away.
> You can adjust the floor level with your screed later on.



I know what you mean - sometimes I have to stop and remind myself that it isn't an engineering project or woodwork.  

I got up and out for 07:00 which is totally not me. In the end I didn't screw any timber to the block - it just kind of wedged in there nicely, along with a few blocks behind it to hold it there.

I'd worked out 5.6m3 of concrete yesterday, so when Lafarge rang up this morning to confirm I asked them to up it to 6m3. Everything was booked for 10.45am. Imagine my suprise when the truck turns up at 10.30 and no pump, but thankfully it turned up minutes later and they got going.

The initial look on the guys face indicated they weren't too happy about the shoring being in the way - but soon cracked on. I was raking the concrete about.

At the end almost came a cropper - last 1m2 to do and the truck driver says no more concrete. Bullocks!

Thankfully there was about 2 barrows worth in the pump hopper and after we had levelled the rest - actually ended up with 1 barrow left. Feel somewhat relieved that I'd increased the order to 6m3 - otherwise I would have run out.

A mate came round and between the 2 of us - tamped it relatively smooth.

I'll post some piccies on Monday - the USB cable for the phone is at work.

Now off to have a shower and have breakfast\lunch and tea in one and do all the weeks chores that I've been putting off and then enjoy the rest of the day. Especially as the wife & children are still in Brum at her folks. Well at least till I go down tomorrow to collect them.

I feel so relieved that the slab has been poured - I really was starting to get a bit disheartened thinking have I bit off more than I can chew and this will be like a prison sentence - bloody never end. But now that the slab is down - I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Or at least until the garage\basement bit starts. :shock:

Really appreciate all the advice!!!


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## Dibs-h

Below are some pictures. 1st one is of the steelwork all in place and wired together,






That was finished at around 10:00 on Sat morning, and you can just see the shuttering wedged in place at the bottom of the site. The black spacers are for the top layer of mesh and concrete spacers were used for the bottom layer of mesh. Total slab depth is somewhere around 7" on average.

And here's the final one - all poured and tamped (to a reasonable level),






Word of advice - never work in the sun without drinking L's of water. Towards the tail end of the tamping the back of the thighs cramped a few times but I survived. At 10pm whilst out with some friends - both inner thighs cramped for over an hour - agony is putting it politely. So very little will be happening over the next couple of days.

Plan of action for the next bit is to lay down a course of 4" coursing blocks and then the DPC. I'm ultimately looking to lay 2" (or 40mm) of kingspan and then a 50mm screed - coming to just under the DPC. Then cary on with the normal sized blocks. Which matches nicely with a return up the boudnary wall of approx 13", which will not affect the subsequent courses.

As the return is about 1/3 of a m3 - probably mix that on site.

*Edit - just realised that coursing blocks aren't 4" high. So slight re-think required.*


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## trousers

Dibs

What are you going to use for a dpc over the slab, and where are you going to position it?


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## Dibs-h

trousers":b2lxbj70 said:


> Dibs
> 
> What are you going to use for a dpc over the slab, and where are you going to position it?



The thought was for some type of polythene sheet (whatever the builders merchants appear to sell) laid down on the slab, then 50mm insulation and then 50mm screed. The DPM would lap up and be taped to the DPC which probably will be 1 course of blockwork above the slab.

There didn't appear to be any reason why the DPM could not be laid after the walls have been built as long as the DPC in the walls was wider than the wall and allowed for the lapping.

Feel free to correct any of the above if need be.


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## trousers

Dibs

Your sand/cement screed is going to be what is known as an unbonded floor screed (as it obviously won't be adhering to the insulation board). In which case it will need to be 65mm thick minimum, and preferably reinforced with polypropylene fibres in the mix (4 parts sharp sand/ 1 part cement). Otherwise as the screed dries out it may "curl up" as it shrinks, or worse start to crack.
Lapping the polythene against the wall dpc is a definate.
What is going to be the wall finish inside? Your internal wall finish will need to cover and protect the 100mm or so of polythene that is exposed above finished floor level, protecting it from getting punctured.


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## Dibs-h

trousers":1n449nxv said:


> Dibs
> 
> Your sand/cement screed is going to be what is known as an unbonded floor screed (as it obviously won't be adhering to the insulation board). In which case it will need to be 65mm thick minimum, and preferably reinforced with polypropylene fibres in the mix (4 parts sharp sand/ 1 part cement). Otherwise as the screed dries out it may "curl up" as it shrinks, or worse start to crack.
> Lapping the polythene against the wall dpc is a definate.
> What is going to be the wall finish inside? Your internal wall finish will need to cover and protect the 100mm or so of polythene that is exposed above finished floor level, protecting it from getting punctured.



Internal - I was thinking of putting timber studwork up against the blockwork - with a vapour barrier between the studs and blockwork and insulating with batt insulation. Then plasterboard the studs. 

I was also thinking of putting down 1 lot of coarsing concrete blocks (65mm + 10mm mortar) as a platform for the studwork. This would leave me only 25mm or so of exposed polythene, but that would be behind the studwork. For the little time and cost it would get the studwork off the floor and protect the dpm.

I spoke to Lafarge and they do a screed called Gyvlon (or something) as I was think of putting UFH pipes in the screed - ahead of the house getting them. 

http://www.flo-screed.co.uk/lafarge-gyvlon.htm

It appears that for commercial apps and an unbonded floor - 40mm (min) is required. I think the cost is somewhere around £170\m3.

However, just spoken to the pump guy and Lafarge, and it's not a wearing surface, so requires a final flooring.

So either this Gyvlon stuff at 40mm then 20mm T&G flooring (timber or similar) as there appear to be a noticeable nbr of people with timber flooring over concrete.

Or go with a traditional 65mm screed as you suggested with fibre additives, etc. But then that leaves me with a concrete surface.

Hmm. Choices choices... :duno:


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## OLD

I have used springvale floorshield over a concrete base.
http://www.springvale.com/products.asp?InfoID=521&mySub=516
Then 18mm flooring over that it made a good floor might save some money as you seem to be getting some big bills.


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## Dibs-h

OLD":fv3g4kir said:


> I have used springvale floorshield over a concrete base.
> http://www.springvale.com/products.asp?InfoID=521&mySub=516
> Then 18mm flooring over that it made a good floor might save some money as you seem to be getting some big bills.



I see what you've done - this "insulation" down first over the slab and a DPM (in my case) and then the timber flooring straight over. Hmmm - will have a ponder and a gas with the SE see what he says.

How much was the stuff?

Big bills - yes I'd much rather not, but so far stuff seems to be on budget and thankfully almost everything has been bought forward, so not a great dela left to pay for - perhaps the concrete for garage & basement. 

Besides - I'm looking forward to selling all the building equipment when finished which should release a noticeable amount.

Can't be pineappled doing anything tonight - will start on the blockwork tomorrow eve.


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## OLD

I only have a 2005 price 2400x1200x50 £13.80 lots of different thickness available from 'buildbase'. I used a thin flexible dowel flush pull cut saw for its small kerf to make any cuts.


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## Dibs-h

Blockwork Piers

I'm having to put 2 of these in on a 7.5m length. The question I have is for a stretcher bond block wall - I've seen the following on other constructions,

1. the pier appears to be constructed with the blocks laid in the normal manner, on top of one another - up against the main wall. I'm assuming mortar between the peir and the wall. I would also assume that there may also be wall ties crossing from the wall to the pier in the mortar bed.

2. I haven't seen this one, but suspect it would be stronger. Each odd course laid with the blocks in the normal upright fashion but each even course being 2 blocks laid on their belly.

I'm erring towards the 2nd on. Any advice for a blockwork novice?

Progress so far,







might get the current course finished this evening, if I'm lucky.


----------



## trousers

Dibs

2.


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## Dibs-h

Update - removed shoring. It no longer getting in the way makes life so much easier.

Poured the return - man I am so knackered. Must have done somewhere in the region of 9-10 mixes. At the end it was hard enough putting 1 foot infront of the other. The return was 12" high and 6" wide at the one end and somewhere around 9" at the other. The boundary wall doesn't follow the building.

In the end just put some DPM down and used blocks 2 deep to make the formwork. My previous attempts at using timber over a long length have been a bit of a pain. Made the return a little thicker where the piers will be. Hopefully get on with the blockwork tomorrow. Will post up some pictures on Monday (usb cable for the camera phone is at work).

DPC - was going to get the cheapy stuff until I picked up a roll of Hyload. 20m of Hyload weighs a damn sight more than a 30m roll of the cheapy stuff, for the same width. Any recommendations?


----------



## trousers

Dibs

Cheapy stuff fine for a workshop.


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## Dibs-h

Cheers.

Yesterday evening got the DPC down and one layer of coarsing blocks - this levels up with the concrete return and it should just be normal blocks from now on.






Will be around 3 hours every evening - so be interesting to see how many blocks I can lay - hoping for a min of 1 coarse an evening.

It's starting to look like something now as opposed to a large hole in the ground.

The door opening is 1300 wide - I felt I'd much rather have a wide doorway rather than wish I had one later. Also the windows will be around 1350 wide. Me thinks that's a little too wide - but then again you can never have enough natural light- so will leave them at that.

The 2 peirs on the front wall line up approx with inner side of the windows (sides closest to the door opening). I'm inclined to fit additional peirs (1/2 blocks maybe) on either side of the door and the other side of the windows. Not for structural stability but for a return so that the windows and door can be set in a bit without worrying about not having a great deal left for the fixings to bite. Any thoughts?


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## trousers

Dibs

Good idea making the door 1300, have a pair rather than one biggie to keep opening.
Don't forget, if you set the door frame and window frames back you will need to have wider sills to throw the rain clear of your blockwork. I'd stick with fixing them so they are flush with the inside face of the blockwork.
Make sure all the dpc's are continuous. Looking at the pics, and seeing your thread re tanking. Are you going to rely on the synthaprufe to stop water running off the concrete and against your blockwork on the drystone wall side?
I always like to see 150mm clear below any horizontal dpc in a wall.
Remember, synthaprufe type products are not really recomended for continuous exposure to outside weather conditions, as they will degrade with UV.
Dont shop where wizzer got his :shock: It's about £40 odd for 25litres.


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## Dibs-h

trousers":22irb5kh said:


> Dibs
> 
> Good idea making the door 1300, have a pair rather than one biggie to keep opening.
> Don't forget, if you set the door frame and window frames back you will need to have wider sills to throw the rain clear of your blockwork. I'd stick with fixing them so they are flush with the inside face of the blockwork.
> Make sure all the dpc's are continuous. Looking at the pics, and seeing your thread re tanking. Are you going to rely on the synthaprufe to stop water running off the concrete and against your blockwork on the drystone wall side?
> I always like to see 150mm clear below any horizontal dpc in a wall.
> Remember, synthaprufe type products are not really recomended for continuous exposure to outside weather conditions, as they will degrade with UV.
> Dont shop where wizzer got his :shock: It's about £40 odd for 25litres.



The DPC is continious just under the coarsing blocks and then comes up 70mm or so to poured return. and then runs the full length of the return.

I'm after some sort of tanking material - only because it would be easier to apply it now rather than later. It's purely there just incase any moisture gets beteen the drystone wall and the blockwork - a gap of around 2". The bodge solution was fill it full of expanding foam! :shock: and then cover over the exposed elements with something (to be decided later).

The existing garage is built in the same manner - i.e. up against the drystone wall, and the 1st 2' or so of brickwork on that side is a slightly darker colour than the other side. Could be a denser brick possibly as the colour variation doesn't run thru a brick but is a whole section. Even when we've had a downpour - never had any water in the garage or moisture on the wall.

The whole run of blockwork by the boundary is very sheltered due to the 2 smallish trees on the other side but also due to the canopies of the much larger trees nearby.

On the drystone wall - I'll probably bridge the gap between the blockwork and the drystone wall. I'm thinking of removing the coping stones - cutting something into the blockwork (in the way you'd fix some lead flashing) and drapping it over the drystone wall and bedding the coping stones back on. 

In fact I'm tempted to use some lead - I still have the old stuff left over from having re-roofed the house a few years ago, and the lengths from the old valley would do the job just right. In which case the "cavity" between the drystone wall and blockwork would be closed in and very little UV penetration. What do you think?


----------



## trousers

I see what you're intending.
Since that space is so well protected (roof overhang will also help), I'd be tempted to run in the horizontal dpc in the wall on the concrete level, then build the wall as normal. 
I would then tank the _inside_ of the blockwork up 1 or poss 2 courses along that side, and continue the tanking down to the slab. 
If the void is open at each end to let a gale of wind through then you won't have a problem.
When the membrane goes in over the slab at flooring stage, you won't have to worry so much about the detail of lapping the membrane to the horizontal dpc on that side, as the synthaprufe is your insurance policy. Also it is inside, and will be protected.


ps See other thread re price of synthaprufe.


----------



## Dibs-h

trousers":2sj2yn49 said:


> I see what you're intending.
> Since that space is so well protected (roof overhang will also help), I'd be tempted to run in the horizontal dpc in the wall on the concrete level, then build the wall as normal.
> I would then tank the _inside_ of the blockwork up 1 or poss 2 courses along that side, and continue the tanking down to the slab.
> If the void is open at each end to let a gale of wind through then you won't have a problem.
> When the membrane goes in over the slab at flooring stage, you won't have to worry so much about the detail of lapping the membrane to the horizontal dpc on that side, as the synthaprufe is your insurance policy. Also it is inside, and will be protected.
> 
> 
> ps See other thread re price of synthaprufe.



I'd totally forgotton about the roof overhang - it'll be something in the region of 8", more than covering the gap.

Below is a picture of yesterday's progress - was getting a bit late hence a bit on the dark side,






You can see the DPC on the boundary side - under the normal blocks but under the coursing blocks for the rest of it. So I suppose it's as per your suggestion.

I'll do as you suggest for the inside - but I may just put a coat or 2 on the back of the 1st row of blocks, as any moisture that is likely to make it's way into the cavity is likely to go down first than thru the blockwork.

It took around 1.5hrs to lay the 17 blocks and the DPC - which I think is a not too shoddy rate.

Picked up some s\s mortar re-inforcement this morning as the SE is suggesting that the calcs are not going to work based on the size of the long walls and opening sizes. B\C are wanting the calcs as well.

The feeling is with a 4"x2" inner skin becoming structural and bolted to a sill and header (was thinking of making the wall plate at the top wide enough to cover both the blockwork and the inner studwork) it should improve matters, along with the mortar re-inforcement every 2 courses to eaves height.

Hopefully have the calcs in a day or so - one less thing to worry about B\C getting the hump about.

Just nipping home - the joys of working 10mins from home - B\C are popping round at 12:30 to check the DPC etc.


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## Dibs-h

Update - got the 2nd course done.






Quite chuffed really that the levels all tied up especially considering the return was poured and 1 course of blocks done before the short runs were done.

The B\C is happy with things - said he next wanted to come round at wall plate level, hopefully a few weeks from now.

The mortar mix is getting better too. Once or twice it's probbly been a bit on the stiff side - but yesterday added a little more water than I usually do and it was so much easier to work with.

The only thing is I'm going to have to clear some of the spoils in front of where the door is going. As the courses increase I can't just step onto the raft from the end. Hindsight and all that.

Hoping to get back home earlier today, so see if I can complete a full course this eveing.


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## OLD

Have some water in a plastic bottle next to the mortar spot board and add as required to make workable mix in with trowel.


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## Doug B

Try some mortar add mix. (Feb mix + is a good one) 

Makes your mortar more fatty & stays workable longer.

Not the best idea to add water & remix mortar that is already setting.


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## Dibs-h

I forgot to mention as per Trouser's recommendations I am using Plasticiser in the mix as per the isntructions on the back of the 5L pack.

Yesterday evening was a long evening. Used bitumen paint on the outside of the blocks on the boundary wall side - will use Synthaprufe on the inside as suggested.

Then almost got all the way round with the next course.






This evening - probably finish the course on the boundary side and then break down packs of blocks round the front and stack them on the slab ready for use on Sat and Sun.


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## Dibs-h

I've been pondering over the roof this afternoon and the logistics of it. I've got a load of stuff off google regarding joints, etc for trusses. So some reading this evening.

Now the SE is suggesting a bottom cord of 6"x 8" and the same for the other 2. With slightly slimmer sizes for the struts (I think that's what they are called). 

Now I'm thinking of stopping the blockwork (albeit temporarily) to construct the trusses and dryfit everything whilst it's at a manageable height, take everything down and then carry on with the blockwork. Knowing that when I come to fit everything for real there's no real ball-ache, or is that a little too "super-safe"?

I'm on my own - help is there for the odd thing, but I don't like asking too many favours - especially when the people in question have got their own stuff on.

Any thoughts\advice?

Plan B - carry on with the blockwork and construct the trusses on the workshop floor - it's big enough. After having dryfit, then do final assembly on the roof.


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## OLD

Thats why god invented tape measures . Finish the block work and then layout the trusses on the base . draw out a scale plan to help you to finally place the trusses. If you are having a block work gable a truss fixed temporally helps with block work cuts etc.


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## Dibs-h

Update - busy weekend.







Got to the window cill level. Realised on Sat that I could really do with the stone (or cast) cills sharpish, but everyone seemed to be quoting 3-5 lead time. In the end stumbled upon one of the local suppliers who keeps tons of them in stock. Picked up 2 x (140x100x1600) and 1 x (140x100x1550) - 2 fo the wondows and 1 for the door, each going past the opning by about 5". being proud of the surface by around 1.5". Roughly matching the main house. Relatively cheap at £70 for all 3.

Hopefully fit them this evening ant perhaps get another course (or half) up.


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## Dibs-h

Update - been doing more blockwork in the last couple of evening's trying not to get wet thru.






That's a shot from the loft - it was chucking cats and dogs down this morning - I wasn't going out if I could help it.

Probably on with more this evening. I reckon I'm somewhere around 3-4 courses from wallplate level.

Also found some very useful info\books on Roof Trusses - will be going for King Trusses over the piers and then purlins over them into the gables and then common rafters over the lot. Plan to do a couple of practice joints this weekend, in some joist offcuts lying about - rather than ruin some proper timber.

Got some Ashley Iles Firmer Chisels (Cheers Matt) and some lapping film - so probably get the chisels ready first. Then some wood butchery.


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## Dibs-h

Spent a fair bit of time on Sat getting the blocks round from the front - 1 course is roughly 1/2 a pack. Did pick up the concrete lintels for the external doorway, 2 windows and the 1 doorway into the garage basement, the opening which will have to be cut afterwards.

Didn't get round to doing any actual blockwork nor on Sunday. Spent most of it on Autocad - Sketchup did my head in - drawing up the cross section of the roof , trusses and so on - to see where everything lined up.

I've got the sizes of the tie beam, principle rafters, etc. so hopefully get the SE to run them thru his software tomorrow am. I'll end up with a ridge height of somewhere around 4250.

Now it'll just be taking the blockwork upto 2500 and fitting the lintels where necessary - hopefully on Monday (assuming it doesn't chuck it down). Be nice to start up the gables - but probably won't quite get there.

For anyone interested or able to comment on the King Trusses - the sizes are,

Tie beam - 4"x8"
principle rafters - 4" x 6"
King Post - 3" x 3" (at the narrowest part) and 3" x 6" at the top & bottom
Struts - 3" x 3"
Common rafters - 4" x 2"
Purlins - 4" x 6"

all in C24. The internal clear span for the trusses is a nominal 3800 and 2500 between both trusses and then 2500 into the gable walls.


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## Oldman

Coming on nicely, been following this with interest. How do you find the time!


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## Dibs-h

Oldman":17ggsmky said:


> Coming on nicely, been following this with interest. How do you find the time!



The house has been a construction site for some years and needs to be finsihed off, with only a small portion of it that can actually be used. SWMBO - wants it finished. The only way out seems to be, to build the workshop and get "my stuff" out of the house.

Time - everyday after work from around 6pm to 9pm and then most of Sat and Sun - week in week out. Sometimes I think it's like an open prison - getting let out to go to the office and then back doing hard labour.


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## Dibs-h

Update - Bank Holiday weekend wasn't the the mosty productive interms of blockwork, but I am relieved that the truss design is finished along with details of the wall plates, etc.

If someone is after details of some books - I can certainly recommend a few.

The SE ran the truss details thru the software and everything works with a nice margin of safety.

Did get to do some blockwork on Monday afternoon\eveing tho - so it has progressed along.






This evening will probably be getting more blocks round from the front. Counted the packs this morning - I've used 6 packs so far. Will have to get the remaining 4 packs round as well. Probably time to get the tressles and scaffolding boards out as the blockwork is past head height now - 9 courses + 1 of coarsing blocks.

The walls are approx 1900 high - with the wallplate being at 2500, so probably another 3 normal courses. 

Based on a wallplate height of 2500 the ridge ends up at around 4200 but this involves 2 courses of normal blocks and then 2 courses of coursing blocks. Whereas if I just do a 3 courses of normal blocks the ridge ends up being 75mm higher - I'm just inclined to go the easier route - i.e. 3 normal courses. Makes it easier for the peirs as well - no faffing about.

You might notice on the right hand side of the doorway - it's a bit toothed looking - it involved cutting about 2" off. Couldn't be pineappled - will just do it at the end with the Stihl.


----------



## Tierney

It's really starting to come together now; I must admit in the early stages it was more pity, now I'm feeling envious!


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## Dibs-h

Tierney":1z47d2q6 said:


> It's really starting to come together now; I must admit in the early stages it was more pity, now I'm feeling envious!



Pity - it felt more like doing hard time on a chain gang in the South!  

On a slightly related note - I've lost almost 1.5st in weight in about 2 months, so can't be bad.


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## Petiegolfer

I have been watching with interest the shed project.

I relandscaped the garden in our old house and put in 20 plus meters of meter high retaining wall. The walls were all made up of concrete blocks on their flats. 

I moved 7 plus packs round the back of the house. Was able to run around a pack in 30-40mins on my own one block at a time...cheaper than going to the gym! 

You definately get fit when you do this type of work!  

Piers


----------



## Tierney

Points I can relate to you on:

1) Digging foundations into what you first thought was earth; but, then finding out that it is as much rock and stone
2) Living in a house that seems like a building site for several years
3) Carrying too much stuff one by one from front to back of house

My brother in law always says that the first thing you should do when you buy a house that needs work or even to build one from scratch is to build your shed first.

DT.


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## Dibs-h

Weird thing is when I first bought the house - my wood butchering talents (if you can call them that) were somewhat dormant. I had a garage and that slowly started to fill with "stuff" - to the point where a car wouldn't go into it anymore.

Then over maybe 1yr - probably during the time I did a loft conversion and built 2 dormers that my dormant wood butchering "talents" took over.

Since then the house has been on the go, re-roofed it a couple of years ago and now trying to finish off the internals. I suspect that even if I emptied out the house - the stuff may not fit in the "shed" - I probably need a spare 40' Hi-top shipping container as well.  

I probably need to buy a huge barn for me with a small nearby house for the wife & kids. :wink: Probably another barn for the car\s and related equipment too - as has been pointed out wood is half the personality problem - cars are the other half.


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## Tierney

ahh, necessity is a great one to bring out your skills


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## Dibs-h

Update - in between dawdling this weekend got some more blockwork done,






There's one more course to go on the top but these will be the ones which will be "notched" to allow the rafter feet to poke thru in the top several inches - so thought I'd do them later. Infill or something.

Didn't half get a feeling of WTF have I built - it seemed (and still does) massive.

Will do the gables this week and get the timber delivered to do the trusses.

For the gables - the plan is to screw a 2x1 batton, upright, along the middle of the short end walls, to the required height and then run a string line from the end of the batton back to the corners, giving me an approx guide to the pitch. As long as the blockwork goes past - I'm think it should be ok.

I've got some lengths of 8x2 and 4x2 so might throw them across the top and cover with tarp giving me a bit of cover against the rain when making the trusses.

Windows - Almost forgot, the local timber yard sells sapele already run thru the spindle moulder for making into windows - if that makes sense. Mighty tempted to have a go as the last set of windows the local firm made up - were mostly screwed together. Not to mention the large saving - the only issue I'm having is the opener. Might have to have a ponder on that. Might ring round to see what the other firms will charge.

Also - the openings are 1350 wide x 1100 high. Not going to do a picture window. Split down the middle with one 1/2 opening? 3 sections with middle opening? Might have to wedge in with some lengths of roof laths lying about to get an idea of which might look better.

*Edit* - just rang the firm that used to sell the profiles - they no longer do, so will have to have a slight rethink. Although a firm in Manchester do sell them and more but the webpage isn't the clearest - (well to me anyway), too many profiles!. A local firm just quoted me around £300 (+ vat) per window (without glass) for a casement with 2 side hung openers.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - started on the gables. Screwed a batton on one of the walls - to approx the right height and then ran a stringline to the corners

Progress was reasonable.






I did have another - "man this is massive moment", but then and went and measured the ridge of the existing garage (which is only 3m wide) and that is 3.6m tall. With this one being around 4.1m - thought sod it - it isn't much bigger.

Hopefully get a couple more rows done this evening.


----------



## trousers

Dibs 

You must have long arms :lol: 
Are you intending to cut the blockwork to the correct angle after they are laid? Slightly unconventional.
Just a point - normally there would be some sort of restraint strap (metal) built in with the gable blockwork and fixed to the roof trusses/rafters. I'm thinking though that you may be building purlins into the gable so that would do the same thing really.
Also, what detail are you using to finish the verge of the roof?


----------



## plug

We normally pitch the roof before the gables are built, that way they can be strapped to the rafters as it goes up, there is a possibility the blockwork may get blown over.
Plus it is easier to build in the purlins and ridge and cut the blocks as you go.


----------



## Dibs-h

trousers":38woq1xi said:


> Dibs
> 
> You must have long arms :lol:
> Are you intending to cut the blockwork to the correct angle after they are laid? Slightly unconventional.
> Just a point - normally there would be some sort of restraint strap (metal) built in with the gable blockwork and fixed to the roof trusses/rafters. I'm thinking though that you may be building purlins into the gable so that would do the same thing really.
> Also, what detail are you using to finish the verge of the roof?



More like knackered arms. The gable that you see - there will be another wall up against that - the end of the garage, which will probably be about 2m higher.

Unconventional - learning as I'm going along I suppose.  I was thinking of screwing 2 battons forming the correct angle and then cutting with a stihlsaw. The only additional cuts required would be for the purlin ends.

There will be 2 king trusses sat on the piers, with purlins sat on those (above the strut connections) - going into the gable blockwork. 

The verge detail - of the gable that you can see, the roof will abut up to the end garage wall (not built yet) so will require lead soakers cutting into the blockwork, but will be left overhanging a little untill that wall is built.

The other end (bottom end gable) that isn't up yet - I'm planning to have a gable ladder similar to the house. The only issue is that the purlins on the house exit the walls vertically whilst these ones will exit at an angle (due to sitting on the principal rafters (if I'm making sense here). I'm looking for it to match. 

One option I've thought about is to have the angled purlins not support the gable ladder - but have "stubs" poking thru in the desired orientation that support the gable ladder. These could go back into the roof and be "strapped" to the proper purlins if need be.

I've got the BCO coming at lunchtime - so see what he says.

Here's a picture with the gable up (apart from the trimming -  ).






Might just leave the other one - and get on with the trusses? But then again - I'm thinking sod it let's get the other one up too! Trim 1, trim 2 - not much in it, especially as I don't have to hire a stihl. Besides it will be a big motivational boost.


----------



## trousers

Dibs

So are you building another wall next to the nearest gable end as in a cavity wall then? Some wall ties built in as you constructed the first wall would have been the way you'd normally tie the two walls together.

As plug has said, I'd recommend pitching the roof up now, before you do any more blockwork. Fix the trusses, ridge and purlins. Then fix the end pairs of rafters, and then build up the gable blockwork around the purlin ends, using the rafters as your guide line and cutting the blocks as you go. It really is easier.

Reason the house purlins show through vertical is prob because the rafters are birdsmouthed over them. Your truss roof is a different construction. If you want "vertical" purlins you'll have to fudge it like you say. Gives a lie to the actual shed roof construction though.
Using "dummy" purlin ends to support the gable ladder is not a great idea really, because to get the necessary cantilever resistance your "dummies" will have to extend back into the roof space under the rafters, and so will be on show. Defeats the visual object I would have thought?
Also, the bottom of the gable ladder quite often sits on (and is supported by) the wallplate at eaves level which projects beyond the gable end blockwork.

Hope you don't think I'm being picky. Just trying to help, honest :lol:


----------



## Dibs-h

trousers":2na8xr2w said:


> Dibs
> 
> So are you building another wall next to the nearest gable end as in a cavity wall then? Some wall ties built in as you constructed the first wall would have been the way you'd normally tie the two walls together.
> 
> As plug has said, I'd recommend pitching the roof up now, before you do any more blockwork. Fix the trusses, ridge and purlins. Then fix the end pairs of rafters, and then build up the gable blockwork around the purlin ends, using the rafters as your guide line and cutting the blocks as you go. It really is easier.
> 
> Reason the house purlins show through vertical is prob because the rafters are birdsmouthed over them. Your truss roof is a different construction. If you want "vertical" purlins you'll have to fudge it like you say. Gives a lie to the actual shed roof construction though.
> Using "dummy" purlin ends to support the gable ladder is not a great idea really, because to get the necessary cantilever resistance your "dummies" will have to extend back into the roof space under the rafters, and so will be on show. Defeats the visual object I would have thought?
> Also, the bottom of the gable ladder quite often sits on (and is supported by) the wallplate at eaves level which projects beyond the gable end blockwork.
> 
> Hope you don't think I'm being picky. Just trying to help, honest :lol:



It won't be a cavity wall - it will effectively become a dividing wall between the garage and the workshop. I did think of using wall ties, but as it's not a cavity wall - didn't bother. BC wanted the 2 buildings to be seperate with their own ground beams. Suppose could use those other ties (that are screwed in on one end) to ties the two walls together.

As the roof is 2 trusses at 1/3 and 2/3 with purlins sat on top. The purlins going into the gables and common rafters sat on top. I would have to use some sort of temporary supports I suppose to hold the purlins\ridge on the other end?

The gable ladder - yes the house has a traditional purlin and rafter roof. I may still be able to alter the alignment of the purlins - I've seen drawings where the purlins are "clasped" instead of sat on the Prinicipal rafters, which changes the orientation of the cross section.

I do want the external apperance to match the house as closely as possible - even tho the roof construction is different. Point taken about the fudge, will have to have a ponder about the solution.

I won't have the timber for the trusses probably till Monday - replacing the CH boiler in the house on sunday so didn't want Sat to go "wasted". I thought that if at least the blockwork goes up - yes it may cost me an hour or so later to cut the blockwork in-situ but at least the other 6-7 hours don't go wasted. Besides the evenings in the coming week suit me better for the trusswork. Bit ar5e about face - I know, but what can I say?

Picky - don't worry about that. ALL the help\advice is most welcome


----------



## trousers

Dibs

Sorry, didn't realise the two structures were seperate, so no cavity wall as such.
Not clear in the drawing on p1 of this thread. In fact it looks like the two buildings are all in one!


----------



## Dibs-h

trousers":26ih9nfs said:


> Dibs
> 
> Sorry, didn't realise the two structures were seperate, so no cavity wall as such.
> Not clear in the drawing on p1 of this thread. In fact it looks like the two buildings are all in one!



The sneaky plan was to make them one building - but then got into conversations of expansion joints - right between the garage and workshop. And as the garage is a highly loaded building compared to the workshop - thought sod it make it 2 right up against each other. Less hassle in the long run.

BCO came round today and doesn't have any issues with what's being done.

Rang round several timber places that I use - the chaps that do the grading are either off ill or on holiday - which almost scarpered the plans to use C24 timber. Thankfully did manage to get it from someone else. £130 for both trusses - which can't be bad. Have to collect it in the morning - so might pause the other gable and get on with the trusses. 

Probably still do 2 courses on the other gable - i.e. well short of the purlins.

Still thinking on this one - still tempted to go for the other gable - need the motivational boost! I know I'll have to cut them with the Still - but I already have to do one gable - so why not 2? What do you think - I know - still ar5e about face?


----------



## BigShot

Dibs, I'd like to second the mention of gable restraints.

The issue with gables is pressure when wind blows, strong enough winds can damage (or demolish) the gable.


To restrain the walls you'll need 5mmx30mm mild steel or galvanised straps over at least 3 roof spars and taken down the wall a distance I can't remember - might be about a metre - confirm with your BCO.
The straps shouldn't be more than 2 metres apart centre to centre.
Start strapping at the highest point that will give a secure connection.
Then fit a row of noggins between the rafters and gable wall at restraint points.
If you've got ceiling joists you could do with strapping in the same way there too. (And to avoid spread you probably will have)

This is how it's done in Loft conversions even when the purlins are staying in. It's probably overkill, but better that than underkill and storm damage.


Purlins are there to stop the rafters bending, not to restrain the gables.


Usual caviats of course.
This isn't advice, it's opinion, you're not my client, get adivce from a professional and all that jazz.
Hate disclaimers but they serve as a good protection if I accidentally give it to the kind of clown who'd sue given an excuse - sure that's not you but I prefer to be on the safe side.


All that said - I'm getting workshop envy already. Think I might stop following this thread. Haha.


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## Dibs-h

Cheers Bigshot.

The BCO mentioned the retraining straps - 2 on each side of the gable, going over a min of 2 rafters. I didn't bother asking about the depth down the wall - will do when I'm nearer to fitting them.

Overkill - you should see the groundbeams! I did fit similar ones on the floor joists when I did my loft conversion some yrs ago.

Don't worry - there's an SE on board this project, so advice isn't in short supply. But the more the merrier. :wink: 

Right off home to do so more blocks. May well start with the trusses tomorrow - see how it goes.


----------



## BigShot

Sounds like you're all set.

SE, BCO, and by the looks of it some pretty capable contractors too 

Nowt wrong with sone hefty groundbeams - I do rather like the Victorian approach to building. 


Are you putting up a truss roof or a traditional one?
I've seen mention of both trusses and purlins which don't really get used together.


----------



## Dibs-h

BigShot":18adjmhd said:


> Sounds like you're all set.
> 
> SE, BCO, and by the looks of it some pretty capable contractors too
> 
> Nowt wrong with sone hefty groundbeams - I do rather like the Victorian approach to building.
> 
> 
> Are you putting up a truss roof or a traditional one?
> I've seen mention of both trusses and purlins which don't really get used together.



Contractors - just 1 novice = me! :shock: 

I originally wanted a traditional purlin and rafter roof, but at 7.5m long was struggling for timbers big enough for the purlins. Not to mention the SE stating that the calcs weren't working for the building - i.e. no internal walls. So having thought about it for a while and seeing a shot of the inside of someone else's workshop - decided on 2 trusses and finally settled on King Post trusses, after having read till my head hurt.  

The roof consists of 2 King Post trusses, placed on the piers, at 1/3 and 2/3 of the length. These will have purlins placed on the principal rafters at appox mid points, above the strut connections. Then common rafters over these, meeting at the ridge "plate" and birdsmouth'd over the pole plate. Almost like the roof shown here,

http://www.greenwoodoak.co.uk/roofs_tru ... 20roof.jpg

Did 2 more courses on the other gable this evening. All set to collect the timber in the morning for the trusses. Will have to spend a bit of time tomorrow fettling the new set of AI Firmer chisels (cheers Matt!). Will probably attempt a test joint or 2 in some lengths of 7"x3" (old joists) I have lying about. Although will probably complete the other gable first then crack on with the trusses.

Not to mention fitting the new blade to the Stihl and cranking it over - don't need a mis-behaving stihl when the time comes to use it. :shock:

I wish I hadn't sold all my scaffolding earlier in the year - but it was a choice of storing a new single phase 2 post car lift for the garage or the scaffolding - so the scaffolding had to go. But did agree the loan of it for free when needed - so probably leave that for the when garage is built, as it is taller.


----------



## Mattty

Amazing progress on this Dibs considering you have done everything yourself. 
The KP truss idea is deffo what i would do. It will leave you lots of head height for flipping 8x4 sheets and other long materials. Are you going to put a new electrical mains in or extend from the house?


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## Dibs-h

Mattty":2fd6a5ud said:


> Amazing progress on this Dibs considering you have done everything yourself.
> The KP truss idea is deffo what i would do. It will leave you lots of head height for flipping 8x4 sheets and other long materials. Are you going to put a new electrical mains in or extend from the house?



Initially there will be a 13a extension running from the house (existing garage) to power the odd light as I will have to empty out half the garage before I flatten it and then build the new garage and basement. I only need to flatten the back half of the garage as the half closer to the house isn't affected. Thought it would serve as a bit of a store and keep stuff away from prying eyes. Then just flatten that at the end. Initially it will be a pseudo workshop but more like a store - SWMBO wants the house finishing! And my "stuff" is taking up a lot of space in the house.

I've bit the bullet and will be going for 3ph - runs right past the end of my drive, and as that is coming up for the new block paving early next yr - seems oppurtune time to do it. Will also allow me to equip the garage with a screw compressor and a nice TIG.

You're not the only person who mentioned flipping 8x4 sheets - that somehow became a top 3 design requirement. :wink:


----------



## Dibs-h

Weekend's Progress:

Sat - did 3 trips to the wood yard to collect the timber for the trusses - 4.8m 4"x8" weigh more than I want to lift. Thankfully the roof bars on the estate paid off. But could only put 1 length on at a time - as the timber yard is < 2miles - I didn't mind. So 2 trips for the 2 tie beams and then a final one for the principal rafters and king post sections.

Then got on with the other gable. I appreciate there has been advice on pitching the roof and then doing the gables, but as the spot is very sheltered - threrisk of issues should be minimal and as 1 was already done before it was pointed out that my approach was un-orthodox.  Thought sod it - get the other one up - be big motivational boost.







Sun - on with ripping a 100kg+ cast iron antique gas guzzling boiler out of the loft. Don't want to be doing that again! So no progress - but hopefully a massive saving on the winter gas bill - so maybe some more tools, etc. you never know.

So hopefully this week will get on with the trusses. Probably plan out the specifics of the joints and get on with those test joints I've been meaning to do for a while.

I am so looking forward to next Wed\Thur eveing - will be taking an evening off and going to the Turkish Baths in Harrogate!!


----------



## Russell

over a week now we are all getting withdrawal symptoms, how's the progress or have you had a well earned rest this week?


----------



## wizer

what a lovely space :mrgreen:


----------



## Dibs-h

Russell":i89rv7ch said:


> over a week now we are all getting withdrawal symptoms, how's the progress or have you had a well earned rest this week?



Sorry - it's not been a huge amount of progress this last week, what with removing the 30 odd year old gas boiler and fitting a new one. No rest unfortunately.

Managed to spend Sat on the workshop - doing the King Post trusses. Had to take Sun off (visit the inlaws) However, I'm off work today (to make up) so assuming all goes well - might have one truss made.

Thinking about it the other day - I haven't chopped out mortises for so long, but bit like riding a bike. Mind you, using a 5 lb lump hammer certainly speeds things up!

I've been taking plenty of piccies - will post them up later. Off out to the "workshop".


----------



## Russell

Dibs-h":107t5w5f said:


> Had to take Sun off (visit the inlaws) However, I'm off work today (to make up) so assuming all goes well - might have one truss made.



dont think I would get away with that, thanks for the update


----------



## Dibs-h

Russell":2z0f3vtu said:


> Dibs-h":2z0f3vtu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had to take Sun off (visit the inlaws) However, I'm off work today (to make up) so assuming all goes well - might have one truss made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dont think I would get away with that, thanks for the update
Click to expand...


I've just realised how that sounds -  

What I meant was I've lost a day on the workshop - so I'm taking a day off off work to catch up on the workshop (as you all know it's on a tight schedule) - not a case of a reward or anything for yesterday. :wink:


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - why is it that the 1st one is always the most difficult to make (trusses that is)? Probably due to not having done one before, maybe. :shock: 

Below are 2 principal rafters - the top one showing the rafter\tie beam tenon and the lower one being the rafter\kingpost tennon.






The rafter\tiebeam joint went fairly straighforward - both the mortise and the tennon. Here's the 2nd one underway,






Did the kingpost mortise and the tennon - test fit, prior to shaping the kingpost.






Then went & got the bandsaw - I'm sure HSE would have a fit, but neccesity and all that






did the "shaping" - bit of smoothing with a No4 and,






Test fit went ok. Then some procrastination - the rafter\tie beam tennon is "housed" in the tiebeam. was wondering whether the rafter tennon should also be "housed" in the kingpost. After much doodling (on the timber) decided that it shouldn't be housed in the same way. I'm referring to the mortice shoulder being inset into the tiebeam top surface.

Another test fit or two, checking angles as well






Then a final fit (not quite - but at least no more faffing about until the other rafter is done.)






I don't think it's too shabby. Bloody tiring tho - fitting, dismantling then shaving a tad bit off somewhere, then having another go...

I did end up drawing the tennon outline on the sides of the timbers having the mortices cut - seemed to help with working out depths, etc. in case anyone was wondering why all the pencil lines on those timbers.

Got the struts to come yet - hopefully might get this strut complete this week. Hopefully the other one should go quicker.


----------



## Oldman

Nice to see some more pics, still hard at it!

I have a really stupid question, why pay for a large timber and then trim about 1/3 off it, is it for the asthetics or am I missing something fundimental here.

In case you dont have a clue what I am on about  

here black lined badly...


----------



## Dibs-h

Oldman":24qcqubl said:


> Nice to see some more pics, still hard at it!
> 
> I have a really stupid question, why pay for a large timber and then trim about 1/3 off it, is it for the asthetics or am I missing something fundimental here.
> 
> In case you dont have a clue what I am on about
> 
> here black lined badly...



I know exactly what you mean. The surface where the struts abutt has to be as near to perpendicular to the end of the strut. All the reading done (and pictures I've seen) in the last several weeks show every kingpost done in the same way. Having said that - a fair few of the modern ones don't - but then neither are the rafter ends inset into the tiebeam.

But almost all the classical texts (i.e. Tredgold) state the they should and that the kingpost's waist should be narrower to allow for the strut to mortice into a surface that is as perpendicular to the end of the strut. Narrowing the waist allows one to do that. In my case it may well be overkill - but as no-one is liable for any cockups but me - went with the classical design of a truss, i.e. supersafe.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - got a bit more done. Fettled the existing joints and happy with the fit. Started on kingpost tennon on the other principal rafter,






Then decided to put it together to ensure the joint at the kingpost is in the right place,






Used a ratchet strap to pull\hold the completed side together. It's was also getting dark - i.e. time to knock off and go inside.

With a bit of luck should get the mortice done this evening. I haven't got the timber for the struts yet nor the purlins - so will probably use the weekend to start the other truss and then fit the struts during the week and create the cogged joints for the purlins as well.

Thumping a chisel is so therapeutic!


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - didn't get anything done on Sat. Had to go collect a Bandsaw\Extractor from Carlisle and sold the Audi 80.

Sun - Got the 1st truss assembled (test fit). I haven't done the struts, will do the ones for both trusses together at the end.






Started on the 2nd one - after having a chat with Simon (cheers for the docs), decided to leave the tennon as long as possible - you can see the 2 variations in the following picture,






Consequently the mortice is also slightly deeper for the "modified" tennon.






Also having mulled it over - I won't be drawing boring it nor using wooden pegs. There probably isn't quite enough relish left if one was to use 18mm (or larger) wooden pegs.

I've decided to use 10mm (or therabouts) S\S pins\pegs instead. From a strength perspective - shouldn't be an issue, and with the significantly reduced diameter - I should get closer to the suggested nbr of diameters (of the pin) from the shoulder and the amount of relish left behind.

Already thinking HTF that's going to get lifted up into place - brute force and pain and multiple bodies, most likely.

The timber for the tie-beam was a bit longer than required - I started from one end - reasoning that in case of a cock-up, could just cut the end off and start again. So in the 1st picture - the "longer" end requires trimming. Just in case anyone wondered why the tie beam was longer at one end. :lol:


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## Dibs-h

Update - got the kingpost M&T done last night - came to take a piccy and it was getting dark quick - rubbish picture.

I'll be spending about 1/2 day on the "shed" today - so hoping to get the Kingpost shaped and at least 1 prinicipal rafter completed - i.e. tennoned into the Kingpost. If I'm lucky I may get a start on ther other.

Just need to check the span tables and ensure the 6"x4" purlins on a 2.5m spacing and a 2.4m ridge-wallplate span are adequate - will be ordering tomorrow so no cockups.

Will post some piccies up tomorrow of today's progress.


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## MickCheese

This is my favorite post at the moment. I keep popping back to catch any updates.

Well done on both the job and the forum updates.

Mick


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## Dibs-h

Update - Got the 2nd Kingpost shaped, it isn't the easiest thing to run thru a bandsaw! Not to mention lugging the bandsaw down to the shed!







The other end of the principal rafter,






And then after about 20 assembling attempts - a little fettling here and a little there,






If I'm lucky might get the other principal rafter T&M done this eveing - if it doesn't chuck it down.

One annoying thing tho - the nbr of times I've caught my fingertips turning the timber over or moving them about - and what with the neighbours and the school playground - have to just hop about and no cursing! 

Looking to order the rest of the larger timbers, today - 4"x4" for the struts and 6"x4" for the purlins for tomorrow. I'll leave the rest till this lot is up at least - otherwise it's just asking to fall over something. If I'm lucky may just start on the M&T's for the struts on Sun.


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## Dibs-h

Update - Friday evening got the tennon (tie beam joint) started and then it started to get dark






(the piccy is from this morning)

And then got the mortice done and after what seemed like a million fitting attempts and fettling - 






Then offered up to the Kingpost for marking the other tennon\mortise,






both mortice and tennon done,






And finally,






Sorry for the crappy picture - was starting to get dark and I had to dismantle it, restack it and cover it with sheeting, to stop it getting soaked.

Bought the 4"x4" sections today - for the struts. Hopefully all being well - should have them fitted tomorrow, well at least 2 of them. So will have 1 truss finished. If I manage to get all 4 struts fitted - will then look to cog the principal rafters in readiness for the purlins which I couldn't be pineappled to collect today so will get them on Monday\Tuesday.

The truss in the last picture - I did have a go at lifting one end to gauge the weight and pineapple me - it ain't going up even with 4-6 blokes built like the proverbial. May well assemble them in situ - or have a think about it.

Once up will screw some temp timbers across the 2. Be a bit of a pipper getting them up and for them to then fall down or go sideways due to the weather etc.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Started on the struts. As the timber was 4"x4" thought sod it, I've had enough of doing it by hand and went and got the bandsaw and did the tennons on that.






Chopped out the mortises in both the kingpost and underside of the principal rafter and test fitted the first strut,






Did the other side and fitted the lot,






Not pegged yet - PITA dismantling it again and stacking it up. Wanting to finish the other one first and then assemble them the last time (probably in-situ) before carrying on with the rest of the roof.

Probably need top slot the top of the kingpost for the 8"x2" ridge board and leave the final trimming to be done once the common rafters have been fitted. Also will need to fit the wallplate and cog it and the base of the tie beam prior to assemblimg them in-situ or getting them up pre-assembled. Will be having a ponder over the drawing again to see what needs to go where prior to getting these things up.


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## Triggaaar

Wow this is great, I only wish I joined the forum and found this thread a few months ago. I'm in the process of doing a build much like yours: Building at the bottom of the garden, right up against neighbours walls, so cantilevered slab like yours. I wish I'd been able to bounce ideas of you, we've done such a similar job.

I'm not too pleased that you've done it on your own though, I'm totally jealous. Where do you get the time to take photos and update this thread? I've got next to no photos of my build, I just want to rest when the days work is over (and I have others doing most of the work).

You mentioned at the start about making it good enough that it could convert to a dwelling if needed - did you find out how much extra it would be, and did you go with it?

I'll be keeping a close watch on your progress, and see what I could have done as you go (as my build is slightly ahead of yours).


----------



## Dibs-h

Triggaaar":1szo9ky2 said:


> Wow this is great, I only wish I joined the forum and found this thread a few months ago. I'm in the process of doing a build much like yours: Building at the bottom of the garden, right up against neighbours walls, so cantilevered slab like yours. I wish I'd been able to bounce ideas of you, we've done such a similar job.
> 
> I'm not too pleased that you've done it on your own though, I'm totally jealous. Where do you get the time to take photos and update this thread? I've got next to no photos of my build, I just want to rest when the days work is over (and I have others doing most of the work).



_Pleased_ - I've got the "other" workshop to do and the garage above it - you're more than welcome to come round - be happy to supply the cuppas and you can use the inside loo. :wink:

Pictures have never really been an issue - camera phones are impressive these days. Besides be daft not to there is a wealth of experience on this forum and besides the chaps expect them. I suspect if it was just a thread with no pictures, lots of questions and "here's" the final result - I'd be so hesitant at having a "opening bash" at my workshop - the chances of being taught a lesson would be high!:shock: 



Triggaaar":1szo9ky2 said:


> You mentioned at the start about making it good enough that it could convert to a dwelling if needed - did you find out how much extra it would be, and did you go with it?
> 
> I'll be keeping a close watch on your progress, and see what I could have done as you go (as my build is slightly ahead of yours).



I spoke to the B\C chap and if and that's a fat if - more like over my dead body - it ever turns into a dwelling (we have 2 kids and a 6 bed house - so never really) it would just require a planning permission change and with the amount of insulation that is going into the walls, floors and roof - we should get away without making structural changes later on.

To be honest - the only reason I entertained building in a potential change of use was on the off-chance that we sold up (having found a place with lots of space for the family, but with even *more *for me) and having built it with a change of use in mind, would put a bigger premium on the sale price, than the additional costs incurred.

But as the wife has been living in a bit of a building site (somewhat of an understatement) for some years - selling up and moving to do it again, *I'm certain would be* over my dead body.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - there isn't one per se, more a realisation that I don't need a wallplate as is. The trusses sit on the piers directly and what is referred to as a pole plate - sometimes cogged\notched into the top of the tie beam - goes ontop. This effectively serves as the wallpate for the foot of the rafters.

Still debating whether to glue the truss joints or not - I don't see any reason why not - so am erring down that road. Anyone know why or why not - would love some input.

Weather looks ok today - so fingers crossed will get the other 2 struts cut & morticed into the truss and then get the s\s pins cut and fitted later in teh week before getting them into place (somehow).


----------



## Triggaaar

Dibs-h":3eoh6k0a said:


> you're more than welcome to come round - be happy to supply the cuppas and you can use the inside loo. :wink:


It's a bit of a treck as I'm on the south coast.



> Pictures have never really been an issue - camera phones are impressive these days.


Yeah I'm better at taking photos than building, but I just don't have the energy. As soon as I stop for the day, I'm on the internet looking for materials/tools, or heping with the young ones.



> Besides be daft not to there is a wealth of experience on this forum


Yes indeed, I didn't find it until now. It was only when I hit an oak cladding problem I had to find a wood forum.



> I spoke to the B\C chap and if and that's a fat if - more like over my dead body - it ever turns into a dwelling (we have 2 kids and a 6 bed house - so never really) it would just require a planning permission change and with the amount of insulation that is going into the walls, floors and roof - we should get away without making structural changes later on.


It probably wouldn't be that difficult to get permission to use the building for people to stay in, as long as it was as part of the main building (ancilary to the enjoyment of), and not to be sold off separately. That's what my building is for, and it's in a conservation area in the centre of the city. I appreciate you're not too bothered about using it for living accomodation though.

What insulation are you putting in (walls, floor, roof)? For living accommodation standard it's unusual to have a single skin blockwork - are you rendering the areas that aren't up against the dry wall?

EDIT - I've just been looking at another thread where you were asking about insulation and sound proofing. Despite what your B/C said, don't assume it's enough insulation should you want to convert the space to living accommodation. Sounds like it's close, but maybe not quite enough. Just ask if you want to check (unless you already know, in which case ignore me  )


----------



## Dibs-h

Triggaaar":2g1o0zxe said:


> It's a bit of a treck as I'm on the south coast.


In which case there's no popping home to see the family - you'd have to finish it & then go. :wink:



Triggaaar":2g1o0zxe said:


> Yeah I'm better at taking photos than building, but I just don't have the energy. As soon as I stop for the day, I'm on the internet looking for materials/tools, or heping with the young ones.



Almost all the material suppliers, etc. were sorted before the build began and budgetary figures were calculated (along with a sum for unknowns)and put into a spreadsheet - and then actual vs budgetary tracked. As for childcare - unfortunately I can't do the building work & the children - although our son who's 7, likes spending a lot of time on the "site".



Triggaaar":2g1o0zxe said:


> It probably wouldn't be that difficult to get permission to use the building for people to stay in, as long as it was as part of the main building (ancilary to the enjoyment of), and not to be sold off separately. That's what my building is for, and it's in a conservation area in the centre of the city. I appreciate you're not too bothered about using it for living accomodation though.



We are in a conservation area too, but with restrictive covenants on the strip that the garage\workshops are being built. 



Triggaaar":2g1o0zxe said:


> What insulation are you putting in (walls, floor, roof)? For living accommodation standard it's unusual to have a single skin blockwork - are you rendering the areas that aren't up against the dry wall?
> 
> EDIT - I've just been looking at another thread where you were asking about insulation and sound proofing. Despite what your B/C said, don't assume it's enough insulation should you want to convert the space to living accommodation. Sounds like it's close, but maybe not quite enough. Just ask if you want to check (unless you already know, in which case ignore me  )



The ceilings will have 100mm Kingspan and so will the floor on average - as will the walls. Although I am erring down the road of batt insulation for the walls as some have said that it suppresses noise better. The glass in the windows will be D\G. So in the end I can't see it being an issue. But if we sell and any new owner puts in a change of use - then he\she would need to comply with whatever Regs are in force at the time. Which may be more prescriptive than the ones now.

Just had a thought - as the external walls are to be rendered - might have a quick look into the types of external insulation - costs, suppliers, fitting, cost effectiveness, etc.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - barely get 90 mins on an evening before it starts getting dark. Got the tennons cut on the last 2 struts (no piccies unfortunately) and as I'm home earlier today - should have the mortices cut and the struts fitted. 

May leave the trusses assembled - this assemble\dis-assembly thing is getting awfully tiring. Will just cover them over with sheeting and get stuff ready for the "lift" into place on the weekend.

Should have plenty of piccies tomorrow or this evening of the trusses. Just need the roof to be "Tyvek'd & battoned" before the end of month.


----------



## Mattty

PM sent


----------



## Triggaaar

Dibs-h":12bs1y6q said:


> We are in a conservation area too, but with restrictive covenants on the strip that the garage\workshops are being built.


Are the neigbours whose name the covenants are in, still the same neighbours (or are there just covenants on the land that have been there ages, and are in the name of someone else)? I assume the former, otherwise they won't stand.



> The ceilings will have 100mm Kingspan and so will the floor on average - as will the walls.


Wow that's a lot in the floor (if the insulation covers the whole floor) unless it's just between battens.
You obviously know what you're doing, so forgive these questions - hopefully less annoying than saying 'I could've told you that' if you did make a mistake. Is the insulation in the ceiling under, or between the rafters (if the former, again wow, that's a lot; if the latter, have you got a gap over the top to allow airflow, and a vapour barrier on the inside)?
And on the walls, are you putting DPC between the studs and blocks, and keeping the insulation off the walls?



> But if we sell and any new owner puts in a change of use - then he\she would need to comply with whatever Regs are in force at the time. Which may be more prescriptive than the ones now.


Indeed, although building regs and planning are separate, and I wonder if you could have the spec signed off now, such that if you converted it for sales purposes, it would all look finished. Otherwise someone viewing your property would see your cool building, but perhaps not give it full credit for how well built it is, and not take its true value into account (I'm a property developer :evil: )


----------



## Dibs-h

Triggaaar":1aup3i9k said:


> Are the neigbours whose name the covenants are in, still the same neighbours (or are there just covenants on the land that have been there ages, and are in the name of someone else)? I assume the former, otherwise they won't stand.


The covenants are from 1918 - the Church Of England own next door and could enforce them - but to be honest couldn't possibly have a nicer set of neighbours.  



Triggaaar":1aup3i9k said:


> Wow that's a lot in the floor (if the insulation covers the whole floor) unless it's just between battens.
> You obviously know what you're doing, so forgive these questions - hopefully less annoying than saying 'I could've told you that' if you did make a mistake. Is the insulation in the ceiling under, or between the rafters (if the former, again wow, that's a lot; if the latter, have you got a gap over the top to allow airflow, and a vapour barrier on the inside)?
> And on the walls, are you putting DPC between the studs and blocks, and keeping the insulation off the walls?



DPM will be going down, lapped up the walls and taped to the DPC that can be seen in the pictures.

There will be 50mm Kingspan (or dense EPS) down then 3"x2" battons sideways and then 50mm Kingspan between the battons and finally 18mm ply on top.

The inner stud wall will be 4"x2" spaced a little away from the wall - fully filled with insulation, vapour barrier then fireline plasterboard.

The rafters (4"x2") will have 100mm kingspan between the rafters - Tyvek on top, counter battoned, then tiling laths and then tiles. Dry ridge system, with eaves vents. Under the rafter there will be 18mm ply (equivalent to a vapour barrier) but fitted to increase the resistance to thieving scumbags should they try to enter from the roof. Might get a bit of stiffness added to the roof as well. Finished with fireline plasterboard.



Triggaaar":1aup3i9k said:


> Indeed, although building regs and planning are separate, and I wonder if you could have the spec signed off now, such that if you converted it for sales purposes, it would all look finished. Otherwise someone viewing your property would see your cool building, but perhaps not give it full credit for how well built it is, and not take its true value into account (I'm a property developer :evil: )



The B\C chap will hopefully sign it off to a dwelling spec - as planning passed it as a "Hobby Room", not as an outbuilding.

Update : made good progress on the last truss. Will post up piccies and details in the morning.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update as promised.

Got home yesterday mid-aft thereby allowing a good run at getting the trusses moving along.

Tidied up the shoulders on the strut tennons and then started chopping out the mortices in the underside of the prinicipal rafters,






Then marking out the other one, 






Here's the 2 struts tennoned into the principal rafters,






Then into the Kingpost,






and finally both struts into the Kingpost and a test fit into the Tiebeam,






*And then the moment we've all been waiting for*






Can not tell you all just how much I've been looking forward to taking this picture!!

Then a bit of a mockup to see the placement of the 4"x6" purlins and 4" tall rafters, (more like a sanity check to make sure the Kingposts don't end up being short or something)






Will be collecting some s\s 10mm bar late today (or early am) and then pegging the joints tomorrow morning. Will be slotting the Kingposts this evening as well. Tidying up inside the "shed" before anything else.


----------



## Boz62

Well done Dibs, this is really good stuff, I'm well impressed  

I'm another one who is watching this absolutely fascinated...

Boz


----------



## Oldman

I dont think Dibs has got a proper job, he spends far too much time out on the project.

Still following this with interest like everyone else I guess...


Hurry up Dibs I want to see the roof on before it snows :wink:


----------



## wobblycogs

Fantastic build, makes me wish I had the space to give it a go myself. Where do you find the time do do the work though? I run my own business from home and I would struggle to find enough time. 

Must be getting mighty cold on site too but I suppose all that hard work lifting bits into place to check the fit keeps you pretty warm


----------



## Dibs-h

Oldman":m8o6aw1s said:


> I dont think Dibs has got a proper job, he spends far too much time out on the project.
> 
> Still following this with interest like everyone else I guess...
> 
> 
> Hurry up Dibs I want to see the roof on before it snows :wink:



Roof on before it snows? I need the building complete (bar final windows & door - before Mid November!

edit - Picked up the s\s bar at lunchtime so should have the pegs chopped up this evening. Just about to order the timber for the purlins, ridge and pole plate & will be collecting that tomorrow.


----------



## Triggaaar

Liking your trusses.



Dibs-h":1p97wvlp said:


> DPM will be going down, lapped up the walls and taped to the DPC that can be seen in the pictures.


Yep, I saw the ground stuff, was wondering about the walls...



> The inner stud wall will be 4"x2" spaced a little away from the wall - fully filled with insulation, vapour barrier then fireline plasterboard.


Ah - didn't realise you had a complete inner stud wall to do. That doesn't go around the whole building though does it?



> The rafters (4"x2") will have 100mm kingspan between the rafters - Tyvek on top, counter battoned, then tiling laths and then tiles. Dry ridge system, with eaves vents.


I guess this doesn't matter, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't meet bld regs if it were a habitable space. Should do you fine though. I'm putting my insulation it at the moment, and I'm supposed to leave a gap between the top of my kingspan, and the breathable felt, even though I'm not supposed to put ventilation in. I'm waiting for my architect to get back to me to explain it to me.


----------



## Dibs-h

Triggaaar":1scxwere said:


> Ah - didn't realise you had a complete inner stud wall to do. That doesn't go around the whole building though does it?



It will be 3 walls -the outer walls - the shortest wall nearest to the house & existing garage probably won't as the garage wall will butt upto it but still be separate.



Triggaaar":1scxwere said:


> I guess this doesn't matter, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't meet bld regs if it were a habitable space. Should do you fine though. I'm putting my insulation it at the moment, and I'm supposed to leave a gap between the top of my kingspan, and the breathable felt, even though I'm not supposed to put ventilation in. I'm waiting for my architect to get back to me to explain it to me.



It may not meet it in terms of insulation value (I haven't done the calcs) but there should be no problem with full fill insulation and then the Tyvek - i.e. no space between the Tyvek and Kingspan. It's already been run past the BCO & he's fine. He's suggested that he will accept a "whole building calc" as opposed to treating each element separately. I'll be having a chat with the SE about this tomorrow.

I've gone over Tyvek and Kingspan's technical literature that many times - I haven't seen any mention of having to leave a gap between Kingpsan and Tyvek.


----------



## Triggaaar

Dibs-h":a606swqt said:


> It will be 3 walls - the outer walls - the shortest wall nearest to the house & existing garage probably won't as the garage wall will butt upto it but still be separate.


I understand you'll lap the DPM with the DPC, but I assume that would be the DPC on the internal wall, and that blockwork (with DPC extended inisde) is the outside wall isn't it?



Triggaaar":a606swqt said:


> It may not meet it in terms of insulation value (I haven't done the calcs) but there should be no problem with full fill insulation and then the Tyvek - i.e. no space between the Tyvek and Kingspan.


No space between the Tyvek & Kingspan won't affect the insulation calc. I've done it with space for vetilation reasons before, not sure why my arch specified it this time as I also have a breathable felt (similar to Tyvek). It would be handy if I didn't have to worry about the gap.



> He's suggested that he will accept a "whole building calc" as opposed to treating each element separately.


That's cool. 100mm is a decent amount, but since it's not continuos (it's only between rafters) it's not perfect. My spec is 75mm between 400mm rafters, with 40mm underneath (&15mm SoundBloc platerboard) to give U value 0.2. But then we are using it as sleeping accommodation, so if they're happy with your as a hobby room, great.



> I've gone over Tyvek and Kingspan's technical literature that many times - I haven't seen any mention of having to leave a gap between Kingpsan and Tyvek.


Thanks, hopefully I won't have to worry either.


----------



## Dibs-h

I see what you mean about the thermal bridging by the timber. I'm probably about 1 week away ordering the insulation so may try to find time to do the calc and see what the U-value is.

BCO should be visiting Mon\Tues so will discuss the "method" with him.

Update: Might have one this evening, hopefully not one of how slow A&E is. :shock:


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - have one!

Went and collected the timber for the purlins, pole plates and ridge plate this morning. The longest pieces being 6m long and with an estate reasoned that <1m would be sticking out each end. Guess what almost 2m sticking out the back - bloody modern estates and roof bars - the CofG isn't over the middle of the car. Thankfully the sawmill is < 1mile, so drove home slowly.

Got the "temp" metal shop going







(the grinder - not bad for a tenner from Makro) and tidied up the S\S pins I chopped up yesterday evening.






Then got started around midday. Moved the tie beams into place - one end 1st then the other, moved the "staging" into place, placed principal rafters, struts and king post onto the staging - got on and 2 mins later had an assembled truss. Got the ratchet straps out and cramped it to the max- both in the middle and the ends. Drilled 10mm holes thru the joints and hammered the S\S pins thru.

Took a few work in progress piccies - but all washed out - bright sunshine for a change. So you'll have to do with a "here's one I made earlier" (or later actually)






I used some length of 2"x1" (roofing laths lying about) as bracing and then got the purlins sat on top (the bracing stopping them sliding down) and the pole plates sat on top of the tie beam,






The tie beams need trimming down - the ends overhanging that wall. Threw the 8"x2" pieces for the ridge onto the end of the tie beams, reasoning that it was better off the ground than on it. Wrapped up around 6pm - not bad progress for 5 or so hrs.

I started slotting one of the kingposts - but wasn't sure whether I had accounted for the counter battons and whether the ridge needed to be flush or protrude slightly (from the top of the common rafters) for the dry ridge kit - so thought sod - I'll trim to final height & slot in situ.

Assuming Sunday doesn't pee it down - will hopefully have the purlins scarfed, and cogged into the prinicpal rafters, as well as the pole plates scarfed and cogged into the tie beam.

Getting stuff into place was far easier than I thought - even on my own. For those that offered to help with the lift (had it been too much today - I would have defintely asked for help & postponed it till tomorrow) - I really do appreciate the offers - you know who you are!


----------



## Triggaaar

Looking great.



Dibs-h":24sq7va3 said:


> I'm probably about 1 week away ordering the insulation so may try to find time to do the calc and see what the U-value is.


Are you buying new (expensive) or have you thought about seconds & co? They do all of Kingspan's seconds, and if you are not too particular about exactly what you need (and read your post you obviously don't need to be) you can save a fair bit. I bought 83m of 70mm, 32m of 22mm, 34m of 50mm and a couple of metres of 150mm for £530 delivered, which is a lot less than at my merchant.

PS, looking at that last pic, my guess would be that shoving the insulation under your rafters would be your best bet. A lot easier and quicker, and also giving a much better U value. You lose headroom, but up there I don't suppose that's a problem.


----------



## Dibs-h

Triggaaar":1xjico2p said:


> Looking great.
> 
> 
> 
> Dibs-h":1xjico2p said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm probably about 1 week away ordering the insulation so may try to find time to do the calc and see what the U-value is.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you buying new (expensive) or have you thought about seconds & co? They do all of Kingspan's seconds, and if you are not too particular about exactly what you need (and read your post you obviously don't need to be) you can save a fair bit. I bought 83m of 70mm, 32m of 22mm, 34m of 50mm and a couple of metres of 150mm for £530 delivered, which is a lot less than at my merchant.
> 
> PS, looking at that last pic, my guess would be that shoving the insulation under your rafters would be your best bet. A lot easier and quicker, and also giving a much better U value. You lose headroom, but up there I don't suppose that's a problem.
Click to expand...


I got in touch with a chap based out of Wales - he's doing 50mm Celotex for £13 per sheet - plus £30 delivery. Seconds & Co can't even come close to that price - so will be using that chap. Unless Seconds & Co have a pallet of something useable on Ebay - in which may get some. I may well put 50mm or so under the rafters. Depending on what the BCO has to say on Monday\Tuesday

Plus I need to stick a whole load of 50mm in the house roof and some of the floors - so will be buying loads.

Just picked up a pair of Nbr 3 tressles - so that will allow me to have 2 lots of staging in the workshop - making fitting of the purlins much easier. 

Fingers crossed the weather is ok tomorrow and I don't sleep in!


----------



## Dibs-h

Update : had a bit of a lie in and then had to go get a load of TRV's for the CH system - the existing ones are old and knackered. So by the time I was done it had gone 1pm. Decided to tidy up the inside of the shop - I'd almost tripped up a few times before and nearly flattened my face. 

That took longer than I thought! By the time I'd got the other tressles and the scaffolding boards in place - it had gone 3pm. 

Just managed to "cut" a hole in 1 gable for a purlin end and managed to do 1 scarf joint - that took a lot longer than I thought it would!! Also managed to cog 1 principal rafter. 

Mind you it did take a while to set out properly - as with all things, the 1st one takes the bloody longest! Hopefully get some of the others finished during the week.. I want to be cutting and fitting the common rafters next weekend. 

Sorry - didn't get any piccies of today's activities- too busy paying attention to foot placement and trying to not crack my head on 6"x4"'s all over the place


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - This week has gone so fast! Managed to cut all the holes (4) in the gables for the purlins - took about 10 mins each with a 6kg breaker (drill out the outline and then switch to hammer only. The 2kg Dewalt had packed up.

Here's one I made earlier,






Here's the 1st scarf joint (by hand)






and assembled and approx insitu - I've started to cog the rafter but only half way.






which fits reasonably well. The 2nd one was done with a noddy jig\template screwed to the side and having removed most of the material used a kitchen fitters bit in the router. The 2nd one which I don't have a picture of - the alignment is slightly off. Probably due to assuming the timber was 150mm tall and it turned out about 5mm less.

Having said that the timbers are overlong anyway so - may well cut them off and redo them. Probably by hand as the hand one seemed to be better fitting.

Here's a shot of my temp workbench. :shock: 






I had the BCO come round this morning - the levels of insulation being used are sufficient and the cert will be to a dwelling level, so don't envidage any issues in a future change of use (highly unlikely for us tho).

He was very suprised at the timber work!


----------



## Dibs-h

Usual Monday update: 

Didn't get as much done over the weekend. 2 errors - spent almost 90 mins scarfing the 4"x3" pole plates - only to realise 1.5 joints in, that when I cogged the tie beams and the scarfed joints - it would destroy the scarf joints. That was Sat - then on Sun at 10:30 decided as it was a nice day (albeit cold) could do with a proper coffee - so nipped into the local Costa. Big bloody mistake. Bradford was having it's City Run (half marathon or something) and every which way I tried to get back home (around 2 miles) - kept coming across road closed signs. In the bloody end - went 15 miles right round the edge of the city to get home. 

Anyway rant over - back to the build. Progress so far - finished doing all the cogging on the purlins and cut and fitted the cleats. Did cut them so the the grain runs down to the lowered shoulder. Also banged in the opposing wedges into the scarf joints. 






Once the purlins were fitted - I did temporarily put a rafter into place\angle to get an idea of where the ridge should go and thankfully I hadn't cut too much timber from one of the Kingposts. So slotted both Kingposts - probably in a how *"definitely not to do it"* method. Stood on a platform of two scaffolding boards - 10' up in the air with a jigsaw from both sides! Followed up by a bit of paring away with a large chisel. 






The 8"x2" moved freely in both slots but as both kingposts aren't absolutely in alignment - when the ridge is dropped into place in both slots - it clamps up nicely.






Did go and get the 4"x2" lengths for the rafters - covered them up thinking there is no point getting them soaking wet thru before they are fitted.






Hopefully might just get the the ridge scarfed this evening. Then onto cogging the pole plates and fitting them. I think if all goes well - may just (aim to) get the rafters on and Tyvek'd by this coming weekend.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Didn't get the ridge scarfed last night. Got the gables "notched" for the ends of the ridge tho. The end where my "temporary workbench" is was a doddle - just stood up on the workbench. The other end wasn't so easy! 8"x2" sat on the outer wall, scaffolding boards going from a tie beam to the 8"x2" - defintely a case of how not to do it!

Thankfully the blocks only required notching by 30mm - I'll obviously have to fit an extra block at the top. I was pleasantly suprised - the ridge was absolutely level along it's length, and latterally was only out by 1" at one end. Which I thought sod it - I'll live with that, not getting the sledge hammer out and trying to move the trusses by mm's. Knowing my luck all come down like a house of cards!

I managed to get the scarf joint all marked out on both pieces for the ridge - so may get it cut tonight. Found the site lamps (from a previous project) so getting dark shouldn't be an issue! :wink:

Will post up some piccies tomorrow of the progress.

Picked up some materials for the roof - 2 rolls of Visqueen 1200 DPM 200sqm (£40), 17 ridge tiles (£10) and 2 rolls of Marley Dry Ridge Kit (£50). In case you are wondering off the Bay!


----------



## trousers

Dibs

Are you intending to use the visqueen as an underlay below the tiles/slates :shock: 
Or as temporary sheeting?
If the former, then I would say a definate no no.
Breathable roofing underlay (Tyvek etc) is the thing to go for.


----------



## Triggaaar

trousers":25tsu8mz said:


> Are you intending to use the visqueen as an underlay below the tiles/slates :shock:
> Or as temporary sheeting?
> If the former, then I would say a definate no no.
> Breathable roofing underlay (Tyvek etc) is the thing to go for.


I can answer this one


Dibs-h":25tsu8mz said:


> The rafters (4"x2") will have 100mm kingspan between the rafters - Tyvek on top, counter battoned, then tiling laths and then tiles. Dry ridge system, with eaves vents.



I need to find learn more about VCLs and when you do and don't need a gap between the insulation and brethable felt.


----------



## Dibs-h

Triggaaar":1m9t31jr said:


> trousers":1m9t31jr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you intending to use the visqueen as an underlay below the tiles/slates :shock:
> Or as temporary sheeting?
> If the former, then I would say a definate no no.
> Breathable roofing underlay (Tyvek etc) is the thing to go for.
> 
> 
> 
> I can answer this one
> 
> 
> Dibs-h":1m9t31jr said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rafters (4"x2") will have 100mm kingspan between the rafters - Tyvek on top, counter battoned, then tiling laths and then tiles. Dry ridge system, with eaves vents.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I need to find learn more about VCLs and when you do and don't need a gap between the insulation and brethable felt.
Click to expand...


Spot on Trig. Tyvek Supro Plus to be specific.

Normally I would have used Tyvek's SD2 VCL on the inside - but as I'm using ply on the inside of the rafters (theiving scumbag control layer) the same affect should be acheived.

The Visqueen is for the floor - lap & tape up to the DPC in the walls and then lay the insulation and flooring.


----------



## trousers

> Picked up some materials for the roof - 2 rolls of Visqueen 1200 DPM 200sqm (£40),



Sorry, but that's how you wrote it............... :roll:


----------



## Dibs-h

trousers":2ksgx5wo said:


> Picked up some materials for the roof - 2 rolls of Visqueen 1200 DPM 200sqm (£40),
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but that's how you wrote it............... :roll:
Click to expand...


Yeah I see what you mean - I suppose the tiredness is starting to show.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - got the ridge scarfed and in (temporarily) yesterday - Tues evening raining cats and dogs sprang to mind.






Just need to lift it back up and fit the wedges to tighten it up.

Also managed to cut the ends of the pole plates so will hopefully have them laid out this evening and the tie beams marked for cogging.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Some progress. Got the pole plates cogged into the tie beam eventually. Spent most of Sat faffing about with them. I wanted them sat over the stud wall to serve as the header, also for the birdsmouth in the rafter to not exceed 1/3 of it's depth and the angle of the rafter to be 35degrees. This only left the depth of the cogging as the variable.

Also "cut" the holes in the gables for the pole plates to poke thru. There is enough extra length to serve as the foot of the gable ladder.

Also wedged up the scarf for the ridge. Do need to pin\screw all the scarfs tho.

Below is yesterday evenings effort,






I used a lenth of 2"x1" as a rod for the rafters and do a final check at each rafter location, prior to cutting the birdsmouth. This means doing each one seperately - but it only take about a min or so, so I'm not fussed.

The clamps are just to stop them sliding off - in case it's windy today. They haven't been nailed\screwed yet - probably skew screw them. Hopefully get a load more done this evening.

I need to get all the rafters done by Sat which should be doable and get it Tyveked. I'm off work all next week to try and get the tiling done.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Yesterday evening's progress. Probably try and get more done this evening.


----------



## Boz62

I still can't believe your high workrate! It's looking good, well done.

Boz


----------



## Henning

The timberwork is so impressive, i can't find words! 
Is it usual to build like that in the UK, btw? 

Great work!


----------



## Dibs-h

Henning":feuqvm3d said:


> The timberwork is so impressive, i can't find words!
> Is it usual to build like that in the UK, btw?
> 
> Great work!



I'm glad you like it.

A rafter and Purlin roof is very common, although more and more constructions are using pre-fabbed trusses.

Truss, purlin and rafter roof is far less common but not rare. I would say it's commonplace for conservation work or in oak framed buildings (new or old). But I dare say those who know more about such types of roof - might be able to comment (MikeG & EddieJ spring to mind)

I had to use 2 large trusses to make the building design work - i.e. vaulted ('ish) roof and no internal walls. At which point I thought it would be good to do it the traditional way, after all the whole purpose of the shed is woodwork.


----------



## Jake

Impressive carpentry, Dibs.

What's going over the blockwork?


----------



## Dibs-h

Jake":3v3p06td said:


> Impressive carpentry, Dibs.
> 
> What's going over the blockwork?



Render with limestone chippings to match the upper part of the main house.

Probably leave that till the Spring - i.e. by which time the adjoining garage will have been built and get (or knowing me, do) both at the same time.


----------



## xy mosian

Terrific, terrific job Dibs, well done. 

A note perhaps, I've just returned from a holiday in France at my brother's place. He has a concrete block builing with 200mm x 50mm timbers passing through the gable ends, in a way similar to yours. Sadly the timber/block joint was filled with mortar, as the timber has swelled the wall has cracked from the lower corner of the beam. He is wishing he had used a more flexible filler. 

xy


----------



## Dibs-h

xy mosian":2q8egmwt said:


> Terrific, terrific job Dibs, well done.
> 
> A note perhaps, I've just returned from a holiday in France at my brother's place. He has a concrete block builing with 200mm x 50mm timbers passing through the gable ends, in a way similar to yours. Sadly the timber/block joint was filled with mortar, as the timber has swelled the wall has cracked from the lower corner of the beam. He is wishing he had used a more flexible filler.
> 
> xy



The side closest - that will have the garage built right up against it, so those won't have a problem. The far end - that will have a gable ladder, with the purlins, ridge and pole plates sticking out approx 8". Where they come thru the wall - I plan to wedge slate in there to take up any "slack" and then use a construction sealant to make it water\air tight.

You'd be suprised what occupies a sleepless mind during the early hours. :wink: Or perhaps not as there are so many similar souls on this forum!


----------



## xy mosian

Sounds as if you have it covered Dibs, of course.  

xy


----------



## Dibs-h

xy mosian":6leasfnn said:


> Sounds as if you have it covered Dibs, of course.
> 
> xy



Update: done some more, but had a real Cumquats evening. Not going to elaborate anymore - thankfully the "homies" aren't in. I'm in such a *grumpy* mood.

Will post some piccies in the morning and elaborate on this evening's mis-adventures (thankfully no probs with the roof). Only thing that didn't happen is getting arrested! That would have just been the icing. Probably would have been done for beating the living daylights out of a (plastic) copper with my Ikea pencil (half left)!


----------



## Triggaaar

xy mosian":3hh1a92v said:


> the timber/block joint was filled with mortar, as the timber has swelled the wall has cracked from the lower corner of the beam.





Dibs-h":3hh1a92v said:


> Where they come thru the wall - I plan to wedge slate in there to take up any "slack"


If the slate is wedged in, what will stop the wall cracking if the timber expands?


----------



## Dibs-h

Triggaaar":3115b710 said:


> xy mosian":3115b710 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the timber/block joint was filled with mortar, as the timber has swelled the wall has cracked from the lower corner of the beam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dibs-h":3115b710 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where they come thru the wall - I plan to wedge slate in there to take up any "slack"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the slate is wedged in, what will stop the wall cracking if the timber expands?
Click to expand...


The wedges would just be for the lower face, to remove any tendency to rock. The upper face wouldn't be wedged in, so expansion would be catered for in that direction. By upper and lower faces - the purlins are 6"x4" - I mean the 6" surfaces.


----------



## Triggaaar

Ah, gotcha


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: (from yesterday)

Started on the rafters on the back fo the roof yesterday - got roughly the same number done as there are on the front. They aren't screwed in yet. Thought I'd get them all in place (approx) before working out the cut at the end for the fascia and making sure the overhang is sufficient. Then ensuring the spacing is correct and screwing them in.







I was halfway into cutting those rafters last night when the mobile rang. I answered it - a chap I know was having downloading AVG Free (I'd emailed him the link earlier in the day), so ended up trying to talk him thru that. In the end stomped into the house to switch my PC on so I could see whatever he was seeing.

Ultimately decided that it should be against the law to sell PC's to certain members of the public - i.e. don't know what a browser is!

Stomped back outside to carry on with the rafters, closing the front door on the way out. That's it you've guessed - left the effing keys inside.

*Stood outside thinking the world and his dog can truly F Off!* Then thought how do I get back in - rang a mate who I believe should have a spare key. He didn't answer - got a SMS minutes later asking what's up as he was on the other line talking to Sky about problems with his Sky+. Steaming evil is a good description for how I felt. In fairness I can't blame him for my own stupidity - but sometimes you think it wouldn't be too much for someone to answer the phone or call back the same day as opposed to coming back to you days\weeks later.

Then stopped and thought for a moment. :idea: Broke a length of roofing lathe, shoved it and both hands thru the letter box, a neighbour (bless her) had popped over to look thru the proch glass and did the old - left a bit, up a bit and 20s later pushed the latch on the Yale Nightlatch and back into the house!

Man that was a close call - I can tell you.


----------



## Oldman

Well your friend with AVG problems may be a bit miffed if he reads your report on his prowness with a PC :lol: 

Also we all now know how to use a mirror on a stick and a length of wood to get into your house... :roll: 

Want me to do the washing up while I visit?


----------



## Dibs-h

Oldman":bnqfvrsm said:


> Well your friend with AVG problems may be a bit miffed if he reads your report on his prowness with a PC :lol:



Past giving a you know what!



Oldman":bnqfvrsm said:


> Also we all now know how to use a mirror on a stick and a length of wood to get into your house... :roll:



Except when the key has been turned the other way disabling the latch on the inside, the 5 lever engaged, as well as the 5 lever in the inner door - feel free to give it a go (i.e. no-one is home). Forgot the alarm and the rest.

And if you try it when I'm home - then well, that might be a tad bit painful.:wink:

Using something thru the letterbox, etc probably is as old as it gets. It will work equally as well on your door if your nightlatch doesn't deadlock - I suspect this trick is probably a big reason why nightlatches suddenly acquired deadlocks


----------



## big soft moose

Dibs-h":2pzp8ww0 said:


> Using something thru the letterbox, etc probably is as old as it gets. It will work equally as well on your door if your nightlatch doesn't deadlock - I suspect this trick is probably a big reason why nightlatches suddenly acquired deadlocks



a while back an enterprising (but truly stupid) scrote tried that trick on my parents house - sadly for him we had an irish wolfhound at that time which just happened to poddle out into the hall to see what the funny noises were...... now thats the definition of a really bad day :lol:


----------



## Dibs-h

big soft moose":85w1tj3n said:


> Dibs-h":85w1tj3n said:
> 
> 
> 
> Using something thru the letterbox, etc probably is as old as it gets. It will work equally as well on your door if your nightlatch doesn't deadlock - I suspect this trick is probably a big reason why nightlatches suddenly acquired deadlocks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a while back an enterprising (but truly stupid) scrote tried that trick on my parents house - sadly for him we had an irish wolfhound at that time which just happened to poddle out into the hall to see what the funny noises were...... now thats the definition of a really bad day :lol:
Click to expand...


If they tried that at my house when we were in - if they made it past all the building work\supplies\equipment without killing themselves - be mighty impressed!


----------



## Triggaaar

Cheer up mate, your workshop looks great


----------



## big soft moose

Triggaaar":pyglraf1 said:


> Cheer up mate, your workshop looks great



it does indeed - you just need to get it weather tight so that next time you lock yourself out you can camp in it til the missus comes back


----------



## Dibs-h

big soft moose":2dk6gu1m said:


> Triggaaar":2dk6gu1m said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheer up mate, your workshop looks great
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it does indeed - you just need to get it weather tight so that next time you lock yourself out you can camp in it til the missus comes back
Click to expand...


The Mrs gets dropped off in Brum and gets collected! That might be a rather long wait.:wink:

I've never locked myself out ever - so not too bad when you consider it took 20 secs once I'd calmed down and didn't cost anything - that and a good nights kip! Perspective I suppose.

Got alot more rafters cut this evening - 3/4's done I think. Will post some piccies up in the morning. I'm hoping that I can check the centres and screw them down on Sat am and then do the block infill. Had better fire up the Stihl - thankfully found the diamond blades for it - to trim the gables, before I Tyvek the roof. Also had better go get a bundle of 2"x1" laths to screw down over the rafters. Sat is going to be busy.

If I can manage to get my ar5e out of bed early enough - I might get the rest done before work.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: more rafters cut last night. Here's a piccy,






Just have about 14 left to do at the back - hopefully this evening.


----------



## big soft moose

looking good - what are the dimensions ? as it looks huge - not unlike my house in fact.


----------



## Dibs-h

big soft moose":bx312zbb said:


> looking good - what are the dimensions ? as it looks huge - not unlike my house in fact.



Just over 4m wide and 7.5m long, and around 4m at the ridge.


----------



## Dibs-h

Question\Advice: Originally there was to be a screed floor (over a DPM which will be lapped to the DPC that pokes out inside) with a single row of blocks butted upto the outer leaf of blockwork, inbetween the piers. A 4"x2" baseplate was to be screwed to this and then the inner stud wall built upwards. As these blocks would have been laid first and then the concrete screed - the blocks wouldn't have gone anywhere and the tendency for ethe stud wall would have been resisted by the screed (very well).

Now - there's not going to be any screed. So Plan B is to lay the DPM and lao it to the DPC (as original plan), lay 4"x4" pressure treated (or normal) timber where the blocks would have gone down - between the piers and up against the outer blockwork. Lay 50mm kingspan down on teh DPM and then 3"x2" bearers on top, screwed to the 4"x4" locking everything together. Then building the stud work off the 4"x4" baseplates in essence. Now since the 4"x4" are sat on the DPM which is continious - I feel there won't be any issue with there being no ventilation, etc.

Good idea or bad idea?

I can't really use the blocks as the even with mortar there is no screed tying them togther anymore. May well have to make a decision fairly soon.

Also - in a few places could do with leveling the slab - was thinking of a sand & cemet mix (just so there are no voids below the insulation), sharp sand with cement or building sand with cement? Or not matter? (I have some building sand left over). In either case - what sort of mix\ratio?

Thanks.


----------



## big soft moose

Dibs-h":1fyq5dcv said:


> big soft moose":1fyq5dcv said:
> 
> 
> 
> looking good - what are the dimensions ? as it looks huge - not unlike my house in fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just over 4m wide and 7.5m long, and around 4m at the ridge.
Click to expand...


nice space - thats about half my house  - bet you're looking forward to the set up/fit out phase , thats always my favourite bit


----------



## crazylilting

I'm trying to understand the predicament your in Dibs-h. Is screed just a top coat on an already existing cement slab?

From the pictures of the floor it looks like there is nothing there. 

What I would do which will probably be shot down by others would be to level off the dirt floor inside and put a layer of sand and compact it.


Put your damp proof membrane down leaving it wild up the wall past where your finished floor will be 

Run 1 - 4 x 4 down the center of the building providing you have something for load bearing. I would also bolt some squish blocks to the outside wall to the same level as the top of the 4 x 4.

Paint the blocks with a damp proof tar product not sure what it's called in the UK. Several coats and then seal the membrane to the damp course so that the one poking through the blocks is pointing up like an L. Laminated to the wall with the same tar.

Then i would bolt a ledger plate to the entire outside walls leveling the bottom with the top of the 4 x 4. I would use 6 x 2 for the floor on 16 inch centers and cut the kingspan to fill the floor joist spaces even with the top of the joists and sheet the floor with as thick plywood as you can afford.

Then wrap the membrane under the bottom plate of your 3 x 2 stud work so you can attach your vapour barrier to it and have a complete seal. For ventilation i'd drill two holes in the stud work through the floor at each end of the building and hook up an inline bathroom fan to one of them drawing fresh air in and the other exhausting it out of the building.


To further protect i would tar all block work bellow grade outside, lay a perforated pipe and cover with clean pea gravel, I don't know if you have a sloping grade but if you do you can send the pipe in that direction. Then cover that with a good quality landscaping fabric and back fill to grade.

It doesn't look like you have room for vented blocks so that would be my way around it.


----------



## Dibs-h

Yes in my case screed would be a top coat on an existing structural slab.

Nothing there - man I nearly died leveling that slab - 6M3 of C35, I'll have you know. Only kidding - you probably can't see it because all the leaves off the trees are in the workshop, composting on the floor.

You're not a million miles off. I already have a slab - 8" thick IIRC (well a raft - but what's in a name). It's just that water pools in a few places - so was thinking of sand\cement mix to level off.

On top of this slab\raft, beacuse it isn't insulated - was to be the DPM, 50mm insulation and a 50mm anhydrite (or thereabouts) screed. The 1 course of blocks inside that would have served as the base of the stud wall would have sat on the DPM, and the screed would have bonded nicely. Now because of the cost of pumping, and drying times - can't be pineappled with it. So onto Plan B.

If I place 4"x4" on the DPM, the stud walls sit on it (it effectively becomes the baseplate) - normally the baseplate is screwed\bolted down. But I don't want to pierce the DPM - so was thinking that if, in the floor the 3"x2"'s go from the back wall to the front wall - everything should lock nicely together.

Also I would have screwed some of the studs to the block wall - but they are 4" deep - so that would have to be some big screws!

In essence I suppose what I'm thinking of is not screwing the baseplate on a stud wall down to the slab, but relying on the floor joists to stop any tendency for the bottom of the studs to kick inwards (as they would be tied together). I'm probably over-egging the pudding - the studs from a strutural perspective transfer the load down from the pole plate to the slab - there isn't enough moment to cause the bottom of the studs to "kick" inwards.


----------



## chris_d

Dibs-h":1gmv45tu said:


> Also I would have screwed some of the studs to the block wall - but they are 4" deep - so that would have to be some big screws!



You could counter bore the studs to 2" with a bit that is the same diameter as the screw head, then use cheap 4" screws and plugs to attach them to the blockwork. From what I can see, the stud walls are only supporting the boarding on the ceiling and walls, so don't worry about compromising the structural integrity of the stud with the counter bore.

Simples.


----------



## Alex

Dibs, are you going for suspended wood floor? Much better IMO  
A 2" screed over insulation is not thick enough even with reinforcement for any floor carrying machinery. A screed for this floor i would also split into four with expansion gaps. And then there is the final floor finish to concrete to think about. Wood floor is sooo much easier.
Crazy's part right i'll just adjust it slight bit.
Right suspended wood floor needs ventilation.You need to work out best way of achieving this. Run supporting base joists level round the perimeter 4"x2" bolted/plug and coach bolt every 2' to the wall. I'd staple some dpc to the face of the joists that touch the wall. Now put in your 3x2" joist at 400mm centres remember to put support under or feet screwed to the side of the joist every 4'. This is so no joist is more than 4' unsupported. These 3x2" joists are suspended of the perimeter joist with joist hangers or can be notched into. Now put nogging between joists so they carn't twist should be every 6'. Now put extra supports in for the stud wall if it runs adjacent to joist it means extra feet it it runs with floor joist i'd double up or even triple the floor joist under wall so you have something to screw floor to.
Cut your 2" PU insulation tight fit between joists. Mark on walls where the stud wall goes and screw your p5 chipboard down then build stud wall on top. Remember stud walls are temp after all.
It would take me by my self 2 days, no mess, no fuss and your hand tools will love it.


----------



## crazylilting

> You're not a million miles off. I already have a slab - 8" thick IIRC (well a raft - but what's in a name). It's just that water pools in a few places - so was thinking of sand\cement mix to level off.



If you have 8 inches of concrete there why would you be worried about screwing into it? Wouldn't the damp proof membrane be under it? screwing in a 8 inch bolt through a four inch piece of wood leaves four inches before you even reach the membrane. Doesn't it?

Why did you need an eight inch slab? is this also part of the footings? K i went back and looked at the whole project again. I understand now that the slab is not just a slab it is also a part of the structural integrity of the stone wall behind the shop. However I didn't see any damp proof membrane go under this slab. In fact it is tied to the footings via rebar and steel mesh. 

So at this point the only damp proofing is between the blocks that i can see or have seen looking through the pictures provided, unless there was two pours and a membrane was put in that I didn't see.

In that case i would use marmox boards and adhere them to the slab, they will provide a bit of insulation and a water proof membrane. I would also take them up the wall to the damp course you have installed and adhere that to the boards. Then you can either screed or put down your 3 x 2 s and insulate in between those. Essentially you'd be tanking the floor and the bottom portion of the wall up to the damp proofing.


----------



## Dibs-h

crazylilting":aytqlctd said:


> Essentially you'd be tanking the floor and the bottom portion of the wall up to the damp proofing.
Click to expand...

 Yes - the "tanking" is on the inside - so I don't want to pierce it.

Whilst an ordinary 50mm screed isn't strong enough - but from the specs of them anyhridte screeds are more than capable at 50mm. They do however require a final finish layer.

I think the idea of "counter boring" sounds good.

If we work on the assumption that the dpm\dpc form a "tank" then ventilation shouldn't be an issue, and can't really be introduced either.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Just spent all day cutting the infill blocks, for the rafter feet to poke thru. 40 cuts in about 30 odd blocks - thankfully the Stihl fired up and with a new blade made relatively light work of them. Only down side - the fitting doesn't seal properly for the water kit - so got pineapple wet thru in the bargain - but thankfully all done. 

Thought it best to get them all cut and checked before mortaring them in tomorrow along with screwing the rafters down. I'm hoping to get the gables cut tomorrow and the straps fitted. I think the aim will be to get it Tyvek'd and counter battened (picked up 3 packs of 2"x1" laths on Sat).

It's gonna be a tight this week - but going for bust (preferably not A&E type of bust).

Will post up some piccies tomorrow.


----------



## Triggaaar

Dibs-h":rdh0xz0y said:


> man I nearly died leveling that slab - 6M3 of C35, I'll have you know.


Pathetic  I tried to level 27m slab of c35. But then I didn't do a great job and there was 2 of us.

Anyway, to the topic - my slab is like yours, and my plan is to hammer and boster any nasty sharp bits out, put some blinding sand down (left over building sand), then DPM, Kingspan, Vapour barrier, 22mm chipboard. I don't know if that's a good plan or not, but it is at least a plan.


----------



## Dibs-h

Triggaaar":2w1ch5o2 said:


> Dibs-h":2w1ch5o2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> man I nearly died leveling that slab - 6M3 of C35, I'll have you know.
> 
> 
> 
> Pathetic  I tried to level 27m slab of c35. But then I didn't do a great job and there was 2 of us.
Click to expand...


6m3 - that was the entire floor area = 4.1m x 7.5m = ??? :wink: 




Triggaaar":2w1ch5o2 said:


> Anyway, to the topic - my slab is like yours, and my plan is to hammer and boster any nasty sharp bits out, put some blinding sand down (left over building sand), then DPM, Kingspan, Vapour barrier, 22mm chipboard. I don't know if that's a good plan or not, but it is at least a plan.



I wouldn't have thought you'd need the vapour barrier - seems unnecessary as the DPM shold be doing it's job. I was thinking of sand (and cement mix) but will be going with some self levelling.


----------



## Triggaaar

Dibs-h":1gv2l0dg said:


> 6m3 - that was the entire floor area = 4.1m x 7.5m = ??? :wink:


Yeah I know. You did well to get away with 8" all the way. I was trying to level 27m3 over a slightly bigger area, but like I said, I've had some help.



Triggaaar":1gv2l0dg said:


> I wouldn't have thought you'd need the vapour barrier - seems unnecessary as the DPM shold be doing it's job. I was thinking of sand (and cement mix) but will be going with some self levelling.


Indeed the vapour barrier does seem weird. It's not to help the DPM, but to stop vapour going from the room into the insulation, whether it's really necessary or not I don't know. If going self-levelling I'd recommend the Wickes deep compound, which is buy 3 get 1 free = £8.80 a bag (although as I posted in a previous thread, most of these levelling compounds are supposed to be above DPM, but I don't suppose that will matter for your use).


----------



## Dibs-h

Bloody annoying - just about to go outside and it's chucking it down. 5 mins in that rain and a drowned rat would spring to mind!


----------



## Mattty

Horrible morning in Leeds to mate.. I had to open the windows in my workshop as the stove was to hot 8) :lol: 8)


----------



## Mr Ed

You're just playing at laying concrete slabs here lads - this is the slab I did today (well I say 'did' I mainly point and wave my arms and other people do it...) just over 200M3;







Telescopic 360 degree laser screeding machine - thats the way to level a slab...might not have fitted in your garden though Dibs :lol: 

Ed


----------



## Mattty

That would make a nice workshop Ed!

That is a serious piece of concreting, i don't think i'd like the responsibility of laying that one.


----------



## Triggaaar

EdSutton":1h9zh7qy said:


> Telescopic 360 degree laser screeding machine - thats the way to level a slab...might not have fitted in your garden though Dibs :lol:


That's more like it. Could have got it in my garden, assuming it's no more than two and a half feet wide.


----------



## Dibs-h

Probably cost more than my workshop build budget!!

Came back in this evening around 17:30 - looking and feeling like the proverbial drowned rat. Cold to the bone!

All I managed to do was "notch" for 4 rafters (in the corner blocks that were mortar'd in previously) and mortar'd all the others in. Left them with plastic covering them - hopefully stop the rain affecting the mortar.

Tomorrow looks ok weather wise so hopefully get the gables cut and then on with the rafters and Tyvek. Be well chuffed if I can get the Tyvek on.

Just need to work out the size, etc. of the tilting fillets on the end of the rafters - as the fascia won't be supporting the last row of (eaves) tiles. Probably lay a few tiles and work it out in situ.

If I'm lucky will get the inside swept and washed out ready for levelling of the slab.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Well it's certainly been a busy week, the expression "a drowned rat" would probably be a good description of how I ended up most evenings.

1st plan of attack was to cut the notches in the last row of blocks, for the rafter feet to poke thru. Spaced the rafters out and marked the blocks, then with the Stihl, cut several slots and then chiselled out the waste. Mortared them in place.

Then cut the gables. Didn't use the water attachment as it leaks and when I was cutting the rafter notches in the final row of blocks - I got soaked.

Screwed the rear rafters into the pole plate and the purlin - didn't screw them into the ridge (thought it best to do both sides together at the end).






Also cut off the overhanging purlins, pole plates and ridge on the side that the new garage will abut to.

That took most of the week strangely enough - far longer than I thought.

Then on Friday, got the front rafters screwed in (and both sets screwed to the ridge) - had to nip out and get more screws - 200 just don't seem to go far!






Finally managed to get a length of Tyvek on both sides at the top - overlapping it over the ridge.






That was at the end of Friday.

Then worked out the tile overhang, lath spacing and fillet size and got the second lot of Tyvek on.






The overlap on the Tyvek was marked as 6" - but as I was taping the joints I reduced it to about half, which gave me enough overhang at the eaves. It was amazing to suddenly no longer be getting wet when it rained!

Here's a shot from inside - the roof does look fantastic!






The lengths of 4"x2" being stored in the roof are for the internal stud wall, but as I had several trees worth of leaves on the floor - placed them up in the roof, whilst I cleaned up and washed the slab. Here's the slab having been cleaned of all the rubbish, but being hosed down.






In the end went and got the Karscher and blasted it all clean and then got rid of most of the water, with one of those rubber bladed thingy's on the end of a mopstick. Finally mopped up - hoping that the less water is on the slab - the quicker it should dry out, what with the door and windows not being there.

There's a lot more of the slab that will need SLC - so assuming I can get some temporary lighting sorted inside - that's on the list for this week and then the DPM and stud wall. I need the stud wall up before the tiling as the stud wall supports the pole plate.

Nothing happening for Mon\Tues as I have other stuff to do - hopefully crack on Wed evening with the SLC.


----------



## houtslager

looking damn goodfrom inside AND outside.

lucky pipper , wish I was so far in my build too 

hs


----------



## plug

Hi, nice shop, how have you fixed down the Tyvek I dont see any battens, if you have any strong winds nails will not be enough to hold it on.
It is not a good idea to overhang the Tyvek into the gutter as it will soak up water, it should be flush with the bottom of the rafters and then use some dpc to overhand into the gutter, or use these.
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/36622/Bui ... -Pack-of-5


----------



## Dibs-h

plug":2rwnxzjd said:


> Hi, nice shop, how have you fixed down the Tyvek I dont see any battens, if you have any strong winds nails will not be enough to hold it on.
> It is not a good idea to overhang the Tyvek into the gutter as it will soak up water, it should be flush with the bottom of the rafters and then use some dpc to overhand into the gutter, or use these.
> http://www.screwfix.com/prods/36622/Bui ... -Pack-of-5



Cheers for the link Plug. The Tyvek has been stapled down for the moment - the counter-battons have yet to be nailed on top of the rafters.

The overhang at the eaves is only a matter of a couple of inches - will be trimmed later.


----------



## JanneKi

Have you overlapped the Tyveks properly? You need to start from the bottom and then climb up, like a pine cone sieve. In the picture it now seems you put the Tyvek up in the top 1st and then the other one - the lower one must ALWAYS be below the Tyvek that's higher up, so in case water runs down (as it will, even if the roof is not leaking due to condensation) it will run down all the way and not drop from the middle to your insulations.

Also, nail them down ASAP, staples hold absolutely nothing.


----------



## Dibs-h

JanneKi":2ljjtowd said:


> Have you overlapped the Tyveks properly? You need to start from the bottom and then climb up, like a pine cone sieve. In the picture it now seems you put the Tyvek up in the top 1st and then the other one - the lower one must ALWAYS be below the Tyvek that's higher up, so in case water runs down (as it will, even if the roof is not leaking due to condensation) it will run down all the way and not drop from the middle to your insulations.
> 
> Also, nail them down ASAP, staples hold absolutely nothing.



Initially the lower roll of Tyvek was placed as in your first picture - purely to allow me to attach the acrylic tape near to the uppermost edge and see what I was doing. The bottom edge of the top sheet was pulled out - looking like your 2nd picture and then the paper covering removed and the top sheet smoothed down over the bottom sheet.

Actually, I find it easier to start from the top and work your way down

The 'shop is in a sheltered spot, so I'm not expecting the Tyvek to get ripped off anytime soon - but I'll get some counter battons on.

It was a bit of a minor gamble - I needed the daylight hours yesterday to clean out the inside, prior to the application of the SLC - hoping the slab would dry out a little first. and that the Tyvek will be ok for a day or so, until I get round to the counter battons.

*Plug* - looked into Felt Support Trays - apparently they are designed for use with an eaves ventilation strip - i.e. the tray sits on the ventilation strip, which is nailed onto the top of the fascia, which supports the last row of tiles. For cases where the last row of tiles is not supported by the fascia but by a tilting fillet and tile batton (which I'll be doing) - you use something (looks almost identical - but slightly different) called an Eaves Protector. The bit where it goes into the gutter, the profile is different. There's a place local'ish that does 10 for £13.50.

Thankfully it's paid off doing the building in multiples of 1.5m :wink: - 'shop is 7.5m long and garage will be 6m long.


----------



## Dibs-h

Just bought a propane space heater of the Bay - local thankfully & will be collecting a Propane cylinder tonight as well. Temps dropping a bit and it would certainly help in drying the inside out.

Gas bottles - that's a proper wind up. I thought there would be a deposit for the bottle which you would get back. Nope - there is something called a Hire Charge, which is proprtionally refunded depending on how long you've had the bottle. So in my case seeing as I need the bottle for a month or so - only get 75% back.

Thankfully the local hardware shop does them for about £1 more than the refill price from the big boys - but no deposit of Hire Charge.

Things ain't going all that fast at the mo - Her Indoors burnt the clutch out on her car last night (telling her the clutch pedal ain't a foot rest - doesn't seem to have any affect) so that right royally screwed yesterday eveing and possibly the next few evenings!


----------



## MikeG.

Dibs,

I'm not sure why you would be using a gas heater at all........

Firstly, before you are weather-tight you are simply trying to heat up the whole of West Yorkshire, and secondly, the major product of combustion of those heaters is water-vapour! Whilst you will be warming the place up a bit, you will actually be making it wetter.

Get a roof on, windows & door/s fitted, then on dry days just leave the windows open to let nature do her stuff.

Mike


----------



## Russell

Get some battens on that Tyvek pretty quickly there are some high winds forecast over next couple of days. Would hate to see that hard work wasted.


----------



## Dibs-h

Mike Garnham":3cd8514b said:


> Dibs,
> 
> I'm not sure why you would be using a gas heater at all........
> 
> Firstly, before you are weather-tight you are simply trying to heat up the whole of West Yorkshire, and secondly, the major product of combustion of those heaters is water-vapour! Whilst you will be warming the place up a bit, you will actually be making it wetter.
> 
> Get a roof on, windows & door/s fitted, then on dry days just leave the windows open to let nature do her stuff.
> 
> Mike



I'm needing to put the SLC down and with the concrete being soaking wet - felt it could do with some drying out. As the Tyvek is supposed to be vapour permeable - I thought that any water vapour assuming it isn't tonnes of it - should pass thru it.

Windows - that's on the list of things to make\do, so I'll have to make do with closing the openings off with Ply for a while. The door is on the list of things to make as well - being super wide and I have a design or 2 in mind, If I was to get someone to make it - I can't see it being cheap.

So a temp'ish solution is in mind. But reasonably secure - the high value kit won't be going in until the shop is totally secure.

Any suggestions for a cheapish temp'ish solution for a door? The 2 ideas I had in mind is ,

1. door casing from 3"x2" softwood and then a 8'x4' sheet of ply just about closes the opening off. Perhaps 2"x1" rectangle and cross pieces with 1/2" ply screwed either side. Or

2. Ledge & brace door out of something like regularised 8"x2" (or 6"x2") softwood.

*Edit* - Mike sorry should have said that the outside temp has dropped < 5C on the last few eveings and as I would be looking to do the SLC on an evening - I thought the heater would help keep the ambient temp above 5c for the 3 hours that the SL requires to set. But last night was over 5C - so no probs.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - did a bit of SLC last night - went quite will. At least the floor is now +\- several mm's as opposed to +\- 1/2" in teh bay that I did.

I would have liked to have done it all in one go - but as the whole floor doesn't require it and it's not receiving a final floor directly on top, not too bothered.

The one interesting thing I noted - it rained heavily last night and the roof at the back emptied it's entire contents into the gap between the rear wall and the drystone wall behind it. The rear wall was noticeably wet and water (drips) was coming thru in places.

So I shall be sorting out the fascia and gutter on the back rather rapid on Sat am, before anything else. Am wondering what to do in the small gap at the back. It's about 4" wide at one end widening out to 5.5" over 7.5m.

I'm going to get all the rubbish (leaves etc.) out of there 1st and then have a think. I think no matter what I do - I'll have to remove all the coping stones which are bedded in. I think I may end up doing some sort of box gutter type thing. It'll be more of a last line of defense type thing as once the main gutter is one - the overhang will be somewhere in the region of 1'. 

I have the lead, from when I renewed the valley on main house roof - which is around 18" wide and around 6m long, which should yield enough material to do one.


----------



## Dibs-h

*Sat* - spent all morning doing errands - got the 10"x1" and 9"x1" PSE for the fascias and bargeboards. Had to get up on the front porch roof to measure what I'd used when doing the house roof and what profiles I'd used. Also got the Ogee profile that hides the undercloak\bargeboard join and allows it to overhang that little bit more.

Using Sikkens Robul Satura\Onul (primer) for them, can you get them locally nope. Had to nip over to Leeds. Paid a lot less for them than in the past - will make a mental note to dress like a scruffy site labourer when going again!

Also got 4 lengths of guttering (same as the house) and all the fittings - again fat discounts at the builders merchants - dressing like a scruffy site labourer seems to be paying dividends!

All this by 1pm.

Counter-battoned the roof in the afternoon - well every 2nd one. Thinking that Sat night was going to be even more windy than Friday - better that than no counter battons. Also pulled the excess Tyvek over the gable wall (one with no ladder) and screwed 2 lengths of batton to the wall to stop it flapping about.

In the evening - ran a 3/8" roundover bit in the router along the PSE for the fascia and bargeboards. Followed by a v bit about an inch or so from the edge - to give a drip groove. Ran the ROS over them and then give them a coat of the Sikkens Primer. Left them to dry in the shop on some tressles.

On *Sunday*, did the counterbattons I'd left out on Sat and then faffed about working out the dimensions\locations of the tilting fillets, eaves tile batton location and tile batton spacing. I'm using Rosemary Clays anbd rememeber reading that the batton gauge was recommended at 80mm (by Dreadnought anyway) but the tiles on the main house were around 100mm. In the end decided to go with 90mm and obviously some will be a little more and some a little less. In the end did a little "sample" panel consisting of 5 rows of tiles (only 1 tile wide thankfully).

I've set the eaves to overhang into the gutter such that a vertical line from the front edge of the eaves tiles straight down, lands in the gutter about 1/3 from the back of the gutter. If anyone suggests otherwise - now would be a good time.

Then went and got the Bandsaw and cut all the little fillets - kept the "master" - that way when it comes to the garage, no faffing about again. :wink: 

Little construction adhesive and a nail - done.

Total Progress to date:






View from the loft - it was chucking it down this morning. 

The remote control power thingies from Aldi - they're awesome. Can switch the site lamps\power to the shop by remote control!!

Hopefully get the fascias\bargeboards painted and fitted this week and the gutters. Can finally start tiling then!


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - things have been slow this week. Just been in the 'shop painting the fascias and bargeboards. Whilst Sikkens Robul Satura is very good paint - the primer is likely putting on treacle!

Sealed the knots in the boards, filled in what required filling and then 1st coat of primer - what's worse is each coat (2 coats) took 2 days to dry!






Quick scotchbright'ing between both coats.

Then ROS'd it and 1st coat of satin black (Robul Satura) topcoat. This was put on last night at 18:00 and dry this morning - so will be giving it a light ROS'ing or scotchbright and then another coat, this evening.






Then thought I might as well make a start on the roofing laths. So worked out the length and ensured the lath gauge (90mm) wasn't going to result in weird results. Nailed a few lengths to serve as a "perching" platform and then started at the top (didn't start at the bottom as the felt support trays aren't fitted yet).

Got a few lengths nailed on and then stopped - not being able to remember for the life of me what the BS's say about the spacing of joints in laths. So thought I'd better stop.






Looked it up afterwards - no length should be less than 1200mm and no more than 4 joints in a group on a rafter. So will be continuing with them this evening. Hopefully get one side complete. 

Just need to find my "roofing" trainers 1st. Safety boots and walking on (in between) laths don't go together. Whereas an old pair of trainers that are like boxing boots (just don't go past the ankle) are perfect.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: didn't do anything on Sat, was at Harrogate.

Sunday - got the Fascias and 1 bargeboard fitted. The new Bessey speedclamps certainly came in handy. Cutting off the overhang for the purlins and ridge were hard work.

In the past I've always mitred the external joints and scarfed (simple 45degree cut) for joining lengths and used an external grade polyeurathane (5 min) which foams to fill gaps. Might be overkill, but did the same again.

Then carried on with the laths - almost 1/2 of the front done.











The white line you can see above the bottom window - that's not a crack, just a bit of string blown onto the fascia. I thought it was a crack and went out to check - hence the piccies.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - Friday\Sat\Sun

Spent almost all 3 days on the build and if you look at the picture in the previous post and the one below, it doesn't seem to have changed much - bloody annoying. 






However, the fascias on the rear are on, as is the other bargeboard. Annoying enough the rear rafters were all slightly different lengths - so needed trimming to even them up and a bit of shortening for the guttering to just miss the adjacent tree trunks. This meant all new tilting fillets on the ends.

Fitted the felt support trays on the rear as well. They've already been fitted to the front. The rear guttering still needs final trimming to length and the outlet putting in it's final place, but for the moment is draining to the bottom of the garden, via length of pipe.

Most of the tile laths are done on the front - with 7 left to go. There is only around 3/4" to take out in the last 7 runs so fairly chuffed. I'm about half done on the rear. Still to fit the cement board for the (gable ladder end) verge, but as the end of the tile laths haven't been nailed into the last rafter - shouldn't be a problem. Followed by cutting the excess off.

Now that the rear gutters are on and the rear roof is no longer dumping all the water into the gap between the rear wall and drystone wall behind (rainging from 3" to 6") - I'm waiting to see if the small amount of water seeping in around DPC level on the rear wall stops\reduces. If not then - will have to look at taking the rear drystone wall down and tanking (or something) the back wall. I may take some of the coping stones off in the worst affected part and take part of the wall down - enough to see what the source of this "leak" is.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: fitted some laths yesterday evening, and swept up inside. Sawdust is mighty useful for soaking up some of the water that had crept in from the rear wall.

Assuming it doesn't chuck it down this eveing will be doing some more laths this evening.

Someone recommended a product called Decodex by Liquid Plastics to stop the small amount of water ingress through the back wall. Having read up on Synthaprufe and all sorts of other liquid products, I've decided to use Decadex.

Only slight snag is that my purchase of a Domino is going to have to wait (possibly) a little as I have to get my hands on a proper Airless Sprayer to put this stuff on with. It's going to be a tad bit difficult with a brush - even with some kind of extension pole thingy - so it's going to be a proper sprayer. Mind you that will come in handy for other jobs round the house\garage\shop, etc.


----------



## trousers

Hi Dibs

Decodex doesn't come up on a search of LP site?
Why not make things easier for yourself and use a (brush applied) system applied internally, eg Hey'di from Sovereign Chemicals.


----------



## Dibs-h

trousers":3btp4rp2 said:


> Hi Dibs
> 
> Decodex doesn't come up on a search of LP site?
> Why not make things easier for yourself and use a (brush applied) system applied internally, eg Hey'di from Sovereign Chemicals.



http://www.liquidplastics.co.uk/Product.asp?id=179

Having spent ages Googling (which isn't always the best thing to do) the one thing that struck me as fairly well agreed upon is to tackle things from the positive side as opposed to the negative side - if possible (physically & not too prohibitively expensive).

As the sprayer would get used for other things - the cost would get "written down" against multiple projects. The options I considered 

1. take the wall down and tank with membranes, etc. and put the wall back. Cost approx £1000
2. use a Polyeurathane Gel mixed with water and poured into the gap. It's supplied by some German firm. Cost around £900
3. Spray Decodex or similar. Cost £150 for the stuff plus £500 (approx) for the sprayer.

If I go with the Option 3 - it doesn't exclude subsequently going with Option 1, if it came down to it. Whilst the cost of the Sprayer is unwelcome - I'm not hiring one for £200 plus vat - I'd rather buy one for £500. Admittedly used but can use it for other stuff and then flog it off.


----------



## MikeG.

Where's your scaffold, man? You shouldn't be working on a roof without a scaffold! Come on Dibs..........that is an accident waiting to happen.

Mike


----------



## Dibs-h

Mike Garnham":1jzd4hqs said:


> Where's your scaffold, man? You shouldn't be working on a roof without a scaffold! Come on Dibs..........that is an accident waiting to happen.
> 
> Mike



One of those scheduling puffins ups.  Sold it all as I couldn't store that and the 2 poster lift I bought for the garage. 

 

p.s. Mike - any thoughts on the leak into the inside from the rear?

"Now that the rear gutters are on and the rear roof is no longer dumping all the water into the gap between the rear wall and drystone wall behind (rainging from 3" to 6") - I'm waiting to see if the small amount of water seeping in around DPC level on the rear wall stops\reduces. If not then - will have to look at taking the rear drystone wall down and tanking (or something) the back wall. I may take some of the coping stones off in the worst affected part and take part of the wall down - enough to see what the source of this "leak" is."


----------



## MikeG.

Dibs,

my thoughts on tanking are to always do it on the outside. Others think very differently, but I always try and keep the structure dry. If you can get the stone wall out of the way you should be able to use a physical barrier rather than apply a liquid, but you do have to think carefully about the details.

So, no scaffold......at the very least get a couple of tower scaffolds up and work off those.........tying them back to the structure. It will also force you to have a bit of a site tidy-up!  


Mike


----------



## trousers

> my thoughts on tanking are to always do it on the outside



My thoughts too, except that its a bit late in the day. Should have been sorted at DPC stage before blockwork was started.
Which is why plan B is easier, ie tank internally, so no taking down of drystone walls etc.
Dibs, that system I suggested will cost way less than you are proposing to spend on other measures, and is guaranteed to hold back 10m head of water. I've used it on several contracts (including my own w'shop) so I know it works.


----------



## billybuntus

trousers":2m4itsi2 said:


> my thoughts on tanking are to always do it on the outside
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My thoughts too, except that its a bit late in the day. Should have been sorted at DPC stage before blockwork was started.
> Which is why plan B is easier, ie tank internally, so no taking down of drystone walls etc.
> Dibs, that system I suggested will cost way less than you are proposing to spend on other measures, and is guaranteed to hold back 10m head of water. I've used it on several contracts (including my own w'shop) so I know it works.
Click to expand...


which methods that? I've just used chromprufe from toolstation (10 quid for a large tin) for internal tanking and its doing well thus far.

Unless there was a lot of water pressure behind the wall or it was easier to tank externally I'd do it again.


----------



## Dibs-h

billybuntus":36drgpcp said:


> trousers":36drgpcp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my thoughts on tanking are to always do it on the outside
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My thoughts too, except that its a bit late in the day. Should have been sorted at DPC stage before blockwork was started.
> Which is why plan B is easier, ie tank internally, so no taking down of drystone walls etc.
> Dibs, that system I suggested will cost way less than you are proposing to spend on other measures, and is guaranteed to hold back 10m head of water. I've used it on several contracts (including my own w'shop) so I know it works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> which methods that? I've just used chromprufe from toolstation (10 quid for a large tin) for internal tanking and its doing well thus far.
> 
> Unless there was a lot of water pressure behind the wall or it was easier to tank externally I'd do it again.
Click to expand...


I think Trousers meant the following,



trousers":36drgpcp said:


> Hi Dibs
> 
> Decodex doesn't come up on a search of LP site?
> Why not make things easier for yourself and use a (brush applied) system applied internally, eg *Hey'di from Sovereign Chemicals.*



After having a think - this could be a plan,

1. trim the DPC on the back wall (cut off the bit that comes into the building.
2. cut some of the mortar out of the horizontal joint (say 10mm deep)
3. use barrier mortar (or similar) to "plug" the horizontal joint
4. use Hey'di or similar on the inside of the back wall.

Although I'm inclined to pause at 3 to see how things go. Now the Heydi stuff (barrier mortar, plug mortar and Hey'di) isn't cheap, so I think (hope) there might be mileage in trying the simple things 1st,

1. clean out the gap,
2. reduce the wall height in places to get a better look at what is happening & if it rains perhaps sprinkle some food\trace dye into the gap to see if it comes in.
3. reduce the height of the soil on the other side to the base of the wall. [will discuss this with the neighbours tomorrow]

One thought that did occur is if after reducing the soil height on the other side - would a perforated pipe (land drain) at the base of the wall (if not a tad lower) on the other side help? This would only involving digging a smallish trench (I think).


----------



## Oldman

Not quite the same problem but I had a ground level shed at the bottom of a slopping garden, mainly clay so little drainage.

I used 4" perforated pipe in a 2ft square trench filled with pea shingle to re route the water away from the shed.

I have other land drains that I laid and put geotextile matting in the trench first to stop the pipe getting clogged with silt but this one I did bare and so far (2yrs) its running away well.


----------



## trousers

Dibs

Don't . about with taking a look at what is happening/dyes etc.
It's obvious what is happening.
Your rear wall dpc is on top of that concrete butress, and any water that lands on the concrete is going to soak thro the blockwork or joints as it has nowhere else to go. 
It's poor design and the only way to get over it is to tank the inside of the wall/concrete above and below that horizontal dpc (so that it is continuous with the floor dpc) so that you form a continuous barrier.
If you can reduce or preferably eliminate the amount of water getting on the concrete in the first place then that would be an absolute priority.
You may even find then that a bomb proof solution like hey'di is uneccessary, and synthaprufe or similar will give you the insurance you need.


----------



## Dibs-h

trousers":l171g7yz said:


> Dibs
> 
> Don't . about with taking a look at what is happening/dyes etc.
> It's obvious what is happening.
> Your rear wall dpc is on top of that concrete butress, and any water that lands on the concrete is going to soak thro the blockwork or joints as it has nowhere else to go.
> It's poor design and the only way to get over it is to tank the inside of the wall/concrete above and below that horizontal dpc (so that it is continuous with the floor dpc) so that you form a continuous barrier.
> If you can reduce or preferably eliminate the amount of water getting on the concrete in the first place then that would be an absolute priority.
> You may even find then that a bomb proof solution like hey'di is uneccessary, and synthaprufe or similar will give you the insurance you need.



With the rear gutters on now - I would say that a great deal of the water getting onto the concrete buttress has been elimanated. The gutters over hang by around 10". Whereas before the Tyvek was emptying it all down the gap - all 21m2 of it

The only means that exist is for water coming thru the wall. Now this could either be rain hitting the wall and coming thru it or from the higher level soil on the other side. Suppose I do have to wait till it rains again to get a better idea of how much the "flow" has been reduced.

I would prefer a bomb proof solution simply from the perspective that once the inner stud, insulation, etc. is in place - I don't want a problem growing unseen.

From a design perspective - would it have been better to have had a taller buttress - i.e. past the soil level on the other side? Or detailed the joint better? Or with a channel for the water to drain away\down?


----------



## trousers

> I don't want a problem growing unseen.



I'd definately agree with that!

With respect to "what would it have been better to do", hindsight is a marvellous thing. At the design stage you have to consider what you are up against and specify accordingly. In your case, the concrete butress and close proximity of the drystone wall have not helped your cause.

I always start from the perspective that, if at all possible, the horizontal wall dpc is 150mm above *any* external ground level. Then, inside the building, any floor membrane is sealed to the wall dpc so that it forms a continuous barrier.
This is the ideal, but not always possible. So, in your shop, the wall dpc in the rear wall would be at least 150mm above the butress or any other ground level, and inside the floor membrane will come up the wall to seal with the wall dpc. If that means that 1200guage polythene is not a practical option, you've got to look elsewhere for a solution.

Without dribbling on here, I could pm you a solution for your particular shop if you felt you needed some help. I'm sure tho' that you could, with a few minutes pondering, see the way forward for yourself. Much more satisfying to nail the problem yourself I would have thought :wink: [/quote]


----------



## Dibs-h

trousers":2dq4o6w8 said:


> I don't want a problem growing unseen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd definately agree with that!
> 
> With respect to "what would it have been better to do", hindsight is a marvellous thing. At the design stage you have to consider what you are up against and specify accordingly. In your case, the concrete butress and close proximity of the drystone wall have not helped your cause.
> 
> I always start from the perspective that, if at all possible, the horizontal wall dpc is 150mm above *any* external ground level. Then, inside the building, any floor membrane is sealed to the wall dpc so that it forms a continuous barrier.
> This is the ideal, but not always possible. *So, in your shop, the wall dpc in the rear wall would be at least 150mm above the butress or any other ground level,* and inside the floor membrane will come up the wall to seal with the wall dpc. If that means that 1200guage polythene is not a practical option, you've got to look elsewhere for a solution.
> 
> Without dribbling on here, I could pm you a solution for your particular shop if you felt you needed some help. I'm sure tho' that you could, with a few minutes pondering, see the way forward for yourself. Much more satisfying to nail the problem yourself I would have thought :wink:
Click to expand...


Thanks - the sentence of yours that I've highlighted, it says enough. Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I suppose as it my first build - I don't feel too bad with this slight little hiccup.

Tomorrow, I'm going to have a little chat with next door about reducing the soil level on the other side and then monitor the siutation for a while or at least until it rains. Shouldn't take more than an hr or so to recue the soil level. Probably be a good break from roofing.

I've got plenty to be getting on with interms of tiling, windows and door - so will just keep an eye on matters for a while - which should give me an idea of whether I need a lightweight solution or a heavyweight one.

The advice is much appreciated!!


----------



## Dibs-h

Didn't really do much today - faffing about getting a domino and then the bits and pieces for a 8'x4' glue up bench.

It's rained heavily today and did last night - bizarre for once I was grateful for it. Checked inside and no water is coming thru the rear DPC. Did also have a chat with the neighbours and they have no objection to me lowering the soil in a few places on teh other side of the drystone wall. As it's a zero cost option will get on with it at some point in teh next few days and monitor things.

In the meantime hope to get all the laths on tomorrow and the cement board undercloak on the gable ladder side. Also need to count the nbr of tile & halfs (reclaimed) I have as Planning will probably be a stickler. As long as there's enough for the gable ladder side, I'm not to bothered if I fit new ones on the other side - and then when the garage is built those tiles will have to come off for the soakers, etc. Will source the additional reclaimed tile & halfs before then.


----------



## Dibs-h

Progress: 

Got the laths done yesterday - bloody tiring and my ar*se aches from sitting on the laths. 







Just got the bottom ones on each side (the one that supports the bottom of the eaves tile and the top 2 - but I've deliberately left the top 2 off to ensure I don't end up having issues with the dry ridge kit. i.e. fit them when test fitting the dry ridge kit. 

I had a look inside and noticed something on the rear wall in a few places, 






Sorry for the rubbish picture - it looks like some sort of effervensence\salts coming thru. Only in one or 2 places and only the mortar joints.

Anything to bear in mind\be concerened about?


----------



## Bluekingfisher

Just had a read through your thread as I am planning to build another workshop of my own next spring.

Fortunately I am going with a wooden workshop, roughly 7m x 4m if I can get away with it. It won't be as permanent as your but with luck should have it up in a week or so fingers crossed.

I built a garden wall a couple of years ago and suffered from the white crystalisation coming through the brick work. I brushed it off and sprayed it with 50- 50 mix white vinegar and water, the problem hasn't returned. The green colour would indicate some form of damp I would have thought though.


----------



## trousers

> it looks like some sort of effervensence\salts coming thru. Only in one or 2 places and only the mortar joints.
> 
> Anything to bear in mind\be concerened about?



Usually happens when the blocks are very wet before (or during) laying.
Excess water drains to the bottom of the block (which is quite porous)taking dissolved alkaline salts with it. When it gets to a relatively impervious bed joint it migrates with the salts to the surface, evaporates, and leaves the salts behind.
It will dry out eventually, and you can brush most of it off.
Not a problem, unless there's lots of it and you are planning to plaster/render the wall.


----------



## Dibs-h

Thanks chaps - not intending to plaster\render so will just leave it and brush it off at some point, and there isn't really much of it. Just wondered what it was\how it came about.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - no picies unfortunately. I reduced the soil on the other side of the drystone wall in a few places. So will see if that hopefully makes a difference. Also cleaned out the gap between the back wall and the drystone wall - man that was hard work.

Currently knocking up the assembly table (8'x4') with the domino.


----------



## Bluekingfisher

I think your efforts will be well rewarded as the dampness would permiate through the wall, particularly as it is only single skin.

You must be looking forward to getting in there and doing some woodwork after all this time.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update

Friday:

Knocked up a support frame to fix to the roof bars of the A4, so that when I want the odd sheet of 8'x4' or two, I don't have to pay as much for delivery as for the materials. Seeing as the timber yard is about 5 miles away - worked a treat getting 2 sheets of ply and 1 sheet of 6mm mdf for my assembly table. 

Saturday:

After errands and similar for TDC - got on site for around mid-day. Trimmed all the laths to size and nailed the last lath into place (the one that supports the bottom of the eaves tile). Also closed off the counter-batton space with S\S flymesh. 

Sunday:

Couldn't escape for ever - bloody tedious. Collecting piles of Rosemary tiles from the patio, walk down the garden, stack them on the front of the roof, get on the roof, stack them on the back (just below the ridge), get on the other side and stack them nearer to where they will be used.

































Oh - and here's some I did earlier.







I also laid out the row of eaves tiles - just to check for spacing etc.

Also nailed the cement board in place for the mortar undercloak. No more tiling till the weekend realistically - so will be cracking on with the windows and Domino.


----------



## MikeG.

If you want a really nice job, pop that cementitious board off and replace it with a row of half slates, or, better still (if you've got the room) clay plain tiles. It makes such a difference to the finished look!

Mike


----------



## Dibs-h

Mike Garnham":28ywt7bu said:


> If you want a really nice job, pop that cementitious board off and replace it with a row of half slates, or, better still (if you've got the room) clay plain tiles. It makes such a difference to the finished look!
> 
> Mike



Hhmm. Will have a ponder. I suspect there isn't quite enough room for plane tiles. Slate perhaps. However, there is a profiled bit of timber which is fitted under the cement board to cover the join - on the house anyway. Looked perfectly fine to me. But will have a Google for images of what you are referring to.

I suspect I have at least 2 full days of "loading" the roof with tiles, prior to it becoming an issue. Mind you I plan to tile the back roof from it's right hand bottom corner - leaving the gable ladder end alone till the end. And doing the front roof from the left hand bottom corner. That way the gable ladder - i.e. mortared bit, can all be done at the same tile with lime mortar. Which potentially gives a little more time before I have to decide.


----------



## Dibs-h

Very little has happened with the shop itself - other than had all the insulation delivered for the inner skin (rockwool batts) as Selco were doing an offer too good to refuse, but meant buying it well in advance. It's stacked infront of the windows.

Also bought all the Ply (18mm hardwood) for the flooring as Selco were doing it for £13.99 per sheet, so thought what the hell. Bought a few extra sheets - as no doubt it will come in handy for stuff.






Now just need to finish the windows and door, before the weather improves, so I can get on with the tiles.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - finally getting somewhere.

Time to fit the windows and doors (I'm not updating the other threads - as it's all coming together in this one). For those that have missed the window thread,

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/work ... 37462.html 

and the door thread,

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/brac ... 36877.html

Had a slight snag with one window it had bowed slightly,






If you look at the hinge side - roughly mid point you should be able to see that the casement is proud of the frame. It was the same on both sides. Off it came and 5 mins with a plane and it was better, but that had removed the paint - so another day or so and re-painted. Swapped the hinges over to new ones as the ones on the windows got painted in the painted in the end. 

Time to fit the hardware and fettle stuff. Fitting the espag keeps - but of trial and error, using small screws.






Drilling the holes for the handle - a jig would have made life so easy, but with only 4 casements, didn't seem such a priority.






Did end up putting the driver on the lowest torque setting and then having to back the screw off a tad otherwise the mechanism was a tad stiff.






The window openings were almost square - so a little trimming with an angle grinder we have,






I don't think it's too bad,






Fitted with the Rapierstar fixings - I suppose one has to use the remaining 180 or so somewhere. :lol:

Managed to get 4 of them glazed yesterday,






One casement had warped and needed some persuasion to close - I won't be opening that one any time soon and made the choice to glaze it. It would delay things to remake it now - whereas fitting it closes the shop up and I can replace it at my leisure. 

Got the door fitted earlier and got the aluminium weatherbar fitted. The hinges ended up with 6 & 9 (top & bottom), 3rd midpoint (approx) and the 4th one between top and 3rd. 3rd and 4th were adjusted so that the gaps between top\4th and 3rd\4th were the same - due to the placement of the middle rail - the hinges shuffled upwards slightly. Appreciate they might not be to everyone's liking - but for some reason - this arrangement of hinges looks right to me. And more importantly the door swings perfectly - so I'm chuffed.











Hopefully glaze the remaining 2 casements this evening and see if I can make a start on fitting the deadlock and glazing the door. It's a bit of a faff as the glazing bars either side of the curved verticals will be finally shaped when fitted. Got a nice mushroom mortice knob on Sunday in brushed s\s - so should look good - 2.5" diameter, which feels about right. Got mortice catch (if that's what they are called) choice of 3.37" or 3" - doesn't centre the knob in either case - but 3" is the closest.


----------



## ByronBlack

Just spent some time looking through the thread - fantastic work. That is going to be one very cosy woodshop. Looking forward to seeing the rest.


----------



## Mattty

Your getting there mate. When are you going to finish the roof? Rosemarys look great but there is so many per sq M they really are time consuming to fit. It's worth the extra effort though.
I assume the outside is rendered- are you doing this yourself also?


----------



## Dibs-h

Mattty":33g1q3cu said:


> Your getting there mate. When are you going to finish the roof? Rosemarys look great but there is so many per sq M they really are time consuming to fit. It's worth the extra effort though.
> I assume the outside is rendered- are you doing this yourself also?



Just finished glazing the remaining 2 casements.

Hoping to start on the remainder of the roof this coming weekend. Hopefully get the door glazed tomorrow and locks done on Thursday - got to go down to Brum to collect Wifey and Kids late Friday, which gives me Sat & Sun to do the roof.

There are a fair nbr of tiles stacked on the rear roof - probably less than 25% of what is needed, but it's a start. With Rosemarys only every 5th row is nailed (as is the eaves, verges and tops) the rest aren't so once you get a rythm, it's relatively quick. Teh biggest headache will be getting them up there - as a 1 man band. But free exercise and savinng cash - so can't be bad.

The outside will be rendered with limestone chippings to match the house. That'll have to wait until the adjacent garage (new) is built and then look to render both at once. At this point I'm intending to have a go as getting someone in might not be cheap & I'm against slave labour (even if it offers). PP want a test panel - so will probably screw a 4'x3' cement board to the wall and give it a go. Probably do than soonish - that way I'll get an idea of how it will age - i.e. do the test panel before the garage & then once the garage is finished, I'll know how the render will look in say 6 months time.


----------



## MickCheese

Looking good. I really like the door, very classy

Mick


----------



## Dibs-h

Does stuff ever go to plan - not in my world. 

Sat - got the last 2 holes glazed in the door and the beading fitted. Then had to trim them as the were cut oversize. Had an offcut around 3mm thick from a 3"x2" - so using that as a spacer, put a new blade in the Fein MM and cut a way, tidying up with some 80g Abranet. Then on with some primer.







The primer is a little lighter than the topcoat - another lot of primer and then hopefully the topcoat. Chopped up some s\s offcuts into 4" lengths and having drilled the holes in the hinge side of the door, hammered them in. Then drilled out some slightly oversize hole in the metal jamb for them to engage.






Fitted the deadlock in the stile and then came time for the rectangular cutout in the jamb - started off with a pair of 13mm holes and then the hard part. A combination of files, die grinders and the Awesome Aldi dremel-clone with some mini cutting discs and what felt like a lifetime later - we have,






Just some cutting residue to wipe off the frame\seal. I have one more to do higher up for the tubular\mortice latch - which I really don't want to do! Stooped over the above effort for ages - aches and pains really set in this morning.


----------



## Dibs-h

Right an update:

Spent most of the week faffing about with cutting square holes in steel jambs and fitting locks, as well as handles. The 2 ironmongers I used supplied single spring latches and when I came to use it with unsprung door furniture - well a quick trip to Screwfix soon resolved that. 

No real WIP unfortunately - I'm sure you'll understand, square holes in situ in 5mm steel isn't the easiest thing to do, here's the end result,






Now the only problem is Wifey saying, "The workshop door looks really nice. Why has your workshop got a door that looks a million times better than our front door?" (Front door isn't rubbish tho!)

"I think one exactly like that in that egg dart blue would look just right as our front door!" Go figure!

Spent Sat tidying up the workshop - binned all the rubbish and bagged up all the offcuts (next door have wood burner) then stacked more tiles on the roof, thought I'd better get into it gently! My arms already look like they've been done over by a demented cat!

Laid out the eaves course - just to check how many etc. then started in the bottom right hand corner






Now that's when things started to go off plan. I nailed the 1st main course of tiles, then instead of the 5th one - ended up doing the 7th one. Don't really know what happened there. Might have happened around tea break time! 

Then looked at it a bit closer and using a length of lath sideways on (i.e. 1" thick" realised the "joints" were starting to go all over the place! Now a 1\4" deviation is fine - but the odd ones approaching 1" were not.

Sat there for a while - then went sod it - pulled everything off to the 5th row (re-stacking them) and started again. This time laying a whole row out and then moving on. I appreciate it might not be orthodox but so much of this build hasn't been, so I can live with it.

Ended up with this,






Both verges aren't fully nailed in - they'll both have to be stripped back - one for the join between both buildings and lead soakers and the cloaked one for the lime mix to be bedded in. Not the ideal order of things - but when you are on your own - as long as it works out in the end - not mega fussed.

Thankfully one of the biggest saving graces is that the tiles (reclaimed) - almost all have both nibs which makes it so much easier.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Managed to get 10 more rows on in the last 2 evenings. It seems to be about 5 rows per evening and then stack some more for the next day. I'm around 6 rows from the tops so might finish the back this evening.






Thankfully, I don't suffer from hayfever or it would be hard work sat up there in amongst cherry blossoms!


----------



## mtr1

Looks cracking, how are you heating it dibs out of interest.


----------



## Dibs-h

mtr1":2dwgbqab said:


> Looks cracking, how are you heating it dibs out of interest.



With 4" of Kingspan in the roof\floor and 4" of Rockwool in the walls - add maybe a couple of layers of clothing and a hoodie - I'm hoping not to have to heat it to be honest.

I did toy with the idea of a wood burning stove - but shelved the idea due not being too keen on having a potentially unattended fire in the workshop. *Open to suggestions\advice.*

Update: Did some more last night - might get an evening off, although I doubt it for some reason. :roll: 






Thankfully the ridge tiles I'd bought off the bay fit and even tho they are new, they blend in colour-wise very well. Got one of the dry ridge kits out - a Marley one. 6M kit with metal brackets to go on\near the apex of every rafter pair. Rafters every 16" apart, 10 brackets in the kit - HTF is that supposed to work. Going to give Marley Tech services a ring today and ask - :roll:

Decided to sod the brackets and as the ridge beam pokes above the rafter apex - just going to extend that upwards and screw the ridges (using the connector pieces) into that. The extra piece of timber will be covered with a roll of whatever comes in the box - so shouldn't have any issues.

With a bit of luck and good weather might get the roof finished this weekend - assuming I don't sleep in. :wink:


----------



## mtr1

I think with all that insulation you could get away with a electric one(just on for a bit), but you can't beat a woodburner. People put them in their homes after all, and leave them unattended. As long as they are fitted right shouldn't be a problem, I'm definitely fitting one in mine.


----------



## billybuntus

A woodburners not a problem providing you don't leave anything combustible near it (common sense) and its pretty much sealed so its not as if anythings gonna fall out of it onto a concrete floor and light up your workshop.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - Sat started with the following,






I'd laid out the eaves tiles on Fri eve - just in case I needed any more and Sat morning would be the only time to get any.

After a few intermissions (i.e. domestic chores - I'm sure those of you with young children know what I mean - :wink we have,






Then onto Sunday - (after another slight sleep in) got some more stacked up on the roof, got a another 2 diagonals done,






Then the heavens opened up. Hung about in the doorway for a bit - did check to see that the water drains correctly into the gutter and doesn't overshoot - it does nicely.

So went and serviced the Audi instead - getting wet at ground level is preferable to getting soaked on a roof!

Thanks for the advice about the woodburner - I'm half tempted to put a chimney "thing" on the left hand side of the shop (as in photos), but because the new garage would abut it - it would actually be in the garage gable. It would look right as well. Could easily feed the woodburner out of that.

The plans are getting a re-submission, it appears someone who was tasked with putting a side door and 2 high level windows didn't stick them on the plans. Additional windows\doors require Consent - but I'm sure I could get the chimney in under an Amendment.


----------



## Mike.C

Very nice Dib's, very nice indeed =D> =D> 

Cheers

Mike


----------



## paul-c

what a great wip thread dibs  
looks a great build and will be a superb workshop
i have really enjoyed your wip  
thanks paul


----------



## Henning

This is coming along very nicely! 
Workshop of my dreams... One day. One fine day... 

I would get a woodburning stove. It's rather nice to have some heat!


----------



## Mattty

Thats looking really good Dibs. Rosemarys really do look great on a roof. 

PS- Peel the glazing stickers off asap. UV light seems to turn the glue on them from easy peel to araldite.


----------



## Dibs-h

Mattty":2cv84djo said:


> Thats looking really good Dibs. Rosemarys really do look great on a roof.
> 
> PS- Peel the glazing stickers off asap. UV light seems to turn the glue on them from easy peel to araldite.



Thanks - peeled them off yesterday evening and thankfully they came straight off.

Did some more yesterday evening. I'm finding that if I do a diagonal 2 tiles wide - it feels quicker but is still manageable.






Might get the rest on this evening if I'm lucky. I don't have enough reclaimed tops so might have to get the old wet tile cutter out and cut some full length ones down. Picked up a few more ridge tiles so might just get the roof totally finished this weekend.


----------



## Sportique

Hey Dibs - that is magnificent :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :evil: :evil: 

   really!

=D> =D> 

Look forward to seeing the final touches

Dave


----------



## MickCheese

Still looking good and still interesting.

33+ thousand views tells me others find it just as interesting as I do.

Well done.

Mick


----------



## woodsworth

I have to say i think the workshop builds and just seeing other people's shops more interesting then the woodworking threads. Twenty some years in the trade i'm no longer surprised by much. But gearing up a shop or installing a ducting system, simply wiring the shop gets me excited. I've loved this thread, my second favorite build. The door looks fantastic by the way!!!


----------



## Dibs-h

Really appreciate the kind words & encouragement chaps! 

It's been going on for almost 11 months and at times it feels like a prison sentence. Although I have to say - doing the roof is somewhat therapeutic. Hitting that many nails does wonders for the day's stresses! :lol:

Update: On Wed I almost got the remaining tiles on, but the then realised that the eaves course should have had the tile & half (and not the 1st main course) so things ended up slightly short.

So yesterday finished off the main tiling, shuffled the tile & halfs down a course and counted the tops. Needed around 90, but had 60 so out with the old wet tile cutter. Here's the start,






and 20 mins later we have






Then after a bit of bodgering - as my roof ladders won't be back till the weekend,






Will be bedding the verge tiles (far end ones) in lime mortar this weekend and fitting the ridge tiles with the dry ridge kits.

Then onto the inside - DPM, flooring, insulation (walls, floor & roof), etc.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Borrowed some aluminium ladders and fitted the roof hooks and then got going. Rolled out the ridge roll that comes with the Marley dry ridge kit, with a nail every 1m or so into the pieces of timber that were fitted onto the ridge.

With only one roof ladder - it was a right faff. Start at one end - roll it out, come down, move ladder, go back up, roll it some more, come down... you get the picture. Then the same shenanigans for nailing it, and sticking it down. Then onto getting the ridges up the. All I can say is thank God for Snickers work pants with knee pads!!

As you can appreciate WIP piccies are a bit hard work up a roof ladder. Sorry. Anyway here's one with all the ridges fitted,







And here's a gratuitous shot in better light,






That took a fair part of Sat. On Sunday my attention turned to the rear wall and where water had penetrated from the other side horizontally on and under the DPC. Cut the overhanging DPC back and then cut the mortar out (and the DPC) to a depth of around 20mm and more or less the full height of the mortar bed.

I'd got some Feb Waterstop

http://www.feb.uk.com/products/waterproofing/waterplug

and as per instructions, filled this cutout leaving.






I'd also got some of their FebTank Super,

http://www.feb.uk.com/products/waterpro ... tank-super

(a cementious slurry type product for negative and positive water pressure). In all honesty, since the guttering has been on the back - there has been no more seepage. But before fitting the DPM - I'd just like that extra bit of peace of mind.

Unfortunately on Sunday the temp dropped to around 5, and the datasheet for this product stated that it should only be applied in temps exceeding 5 degrees. So just had a day off! So hopefully will be giving it 2 coats of this stuff this week, some Synthaprufe and then down with the DPM, bearers and then the flooring and stud walls.

Found a supplier of 4" kingspan type stuff for a ridiculously low price, so will be grabbing a mate with a very large van and getting as many as we can can get into it. Will report back on that if anyone else is interested.

I was going to lay 2" Kingspan down - 3"x2" bearers down sideways, infill with 2" Kingspan and then 1" ply flooring. Now I'm just thinking that's a faff - and I'm inclined to use 4"x2" joists sat directly on the DPM and infill with 4" kingspan, with the 1" ply screwed on top. *Any suggestions?*


----------



## chris_d

Dibs-h":3v1922tc said:


> I was going to lay 2" Kingspan down - 3"x2" bearers down sideways, infill with 2" Kingspan and then 1" ply flooring. Now I'm just thinking that's a faff - and I'm inclined to use 4"x2" joists sat directly on the DPM and infill with 4" kingspan, with the 1" ply screwed on top. *Any suggestions?*



Hi Dibs,

You are an inspiration to us all - can't fault your attention to detail and determination to succeed! You probably know this but surely just infilling the joists with Kingspan will create a cold bridge through the joist? An easier solution may be to float a T&G floor directly over the 4" kingspan although you will probably have to install skirting to stop the sides lifting. If you do consider this then I'd suggest checking the compressive strength of Kingspan especially if you intend to support heavy machinery.

HTH,
C


----------



## Russ

Very informative topic and some great pictures. The roof looks great.





I built a workshop a couple of years ago and made the same type of roof as yours but was strongly advised by a good friend and roofer that the king post must not sit/touch onto the tie bar, but must work like a pendulum to prevent any possible problems with movement that may result in the center of the tie bar bearing the weight of the king post and causing the tie bar to dip/sag....

It's not a very clear photo and it looks as though my king post is fixed to the tie bar but it's actually floating, I had to hollow-out the bottom of the post to fit round the bar leaving a 15-20mm clearance , had some slight movement, but only by a few mm.





Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure the floating method is to ensure that if a ceiling were to be fitted at some stage it would prevent any problems with movement...

Good to see a project like this, it's going to be a mighty nice workshop.

Russ


----------



## Dibs-h

chris_d":1sitza0i said:


> Hi Dibs,
> 
> You are an inspiration to us all - can't fault your attention to detail and determination to succeed! You probably know this but surely just infilling the joists with Kingspan will create a cold bridge through the joist? An easier solution may be to float a T&G floor directly over the 4" kingspan although you will probably have to install skirting to stop the sides lifting. If you do consider this then I'd suggest checking the compressive strength of Kingspan especially if you intend to support heavy machinery.
> 
> HTH,
> C



Chris - thanks for the kind words! Yes the original reason for having Kingspan under the joists and between was to prevent cold bridging. However I'm not all that convinced that the compressive strength of the stuff is up to heavy machinery. I spoke to their Tech Dept and the were mentioning things like 10% compression etc.

I might do a U-Value calc and see how much the cold bridging affects it. I suppose the fact that there will be around 10" of raft (concrete) underneath the DPM - I'd expect the thermal bridging to not be huge, as the temperature below the slab shouldn't vary hugely over the year. Probably speak to my tame SE as well.




Russ":1sitza0i said:


> Very informative topic and some great pictures. The roof looks great.
> 
> I built a workshop a couple of years ago and made the same type of roof as yours but was strongly advised by a good friend and roofer that the king post must not sit/touch onto the tie bar, but must work like a pendulum to prevent any possible problems with movement that may result in the center of the tie bar bearing the weight of the king post and causing the tie bar to dip/sag....
> 
> It's not a very clear photo and it looks as though my king post is fixed to the tie bar but it's actually floating, I had to hollow-out the bottom of the post to fit round the bar leaving a 15-20mm clearance , had some slight movement, but only by a few mm.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure the floating method is to ensure that if a ceiling were to be fitted at some stage it would prevent any problems with movement...
> 
> Good to see a project like this, it's going to be a mighty nice workshop.
> 
> Russ



Russ - before I did the trusses I read so much on them my head hurt. IIRC the connection between the tie beam and the Kingpost is supposed to be fixed. As the tie beam deflects downwards due to the loads - it puts the kingpost in tension, which is the aim. There are so many variations on the theme - but the one consistent thing is that the bottom of the kingpost is always fixed into the tie beam. So have a stopped mortice, whereas some have a thru one with the tenon poking out the bottom. I never saw any where it just floated on top. In your case - whilst it may look like a Kingpost truss, if the bottom of the kingpost isn't fixed to the tie - your truss isn't a true kingpost truss. But it doesn't really matter as long as it structurally works. In my case as Building Regs wanted the calcs for the roof - plus all the works by Tredgold and guidelines assumed fixed connections and as I ended up designing the trusses myself - went with the traditional approach.

In terms of initial assembly - some will prop up the centre of the tie beam (causing a small upwards deflection) before pinning it together, so that when it settles - the tie beam isn't deflecting downwards. If that makes sense.


p.s. Applied the 1st coat of the waterproof render thingy last night, so should be applying the second coat this evening. Sorry no piccies.


----------



## Russ

Thought it was fine but just thought I'd mention it....

I was buzzing when I built my shop, loved every second of it and saved a fortune.....  

Are you going to render the blocks? Cedar clad would look the bizz...

Russ


----------



## Dibs-h

Russ":2jkiu3um said:


> Thought it was fine but just thought I'd mention it....
> 
> I was buzzing when I built my shop, loved every second of it and saved a fortune.....
> 
> Are you going to render the blocks? Cedar clad would look the bizz...
> 
> Russ



Buzzing - we'll sometimes. Most of the time I'm knackered! The only outside help I have had is the chaps who pumped the concrete for the ground beams and raft. Not forgetting my mate who had a go on the digger, but after wacking the drystone wall too many times (he got demoted to watching) - I operated the digger.

We're in a conservation area - hence the reclaimed rosemary tiles. The block walls will be rendered (with limestone chippings) to match the main house - planning conditions. Planning want sample panels etc. That's going to be interesting.

Fortune - certainly saved that, not to mention lost a few inches off the waistline and the moobs have gone! 

Now that you mention costs\savings - strange no-one has asked what the costs have been so far.


----------



## chris_d

Dibs-h":12zpi38h said:


> I'm not all that convinced that the compressive strength of the stuff is up to heavy machinery. I spoke to their Tech Dept and the were mentioning things like 10% compression etc.



10% is just a standard measurement point as defined in the applicable BS to allow easy comparison between materials but the important bit is what pressure is required to give 10% compression. This table should help and I doubt that any of your machinery is greater than 12 tonnes and with a bearing area less than 1m2:






HTH,
C


----------



## Mattty

Hi dibs. I'd strongly suggest you use a t&g floor of some description of if you do go the sheet route double it up staggering the joints and glue the 2 layers together. I've fitted ply floors before on joists at 400mm centres and the edges still have a knack of lipping up. 

Personally i'd be fitting a Joist floor with Kingspan between and T&G ply or a double layer of chipboard t&g.

The build is looking really good mate. The roof looks especially superb. I find it amazing that you have done all this single handedly!


----------



## Dibs-h

Mattty":3s7d2e5q said:


> Hi dibs. I'd strongly suggest you use a t&g floor of some description of if you do go the sheet route double it up staggering the joints and glue the 2 layers together. I've fitted ply floors before on joists at 400mm centres and the edges still have a knack of lipping up.
> 
> Personally i'd be fitting a Joist floor with Kingspan between and T&G ply or a double layer of chipboard t&g.
> 
> The build is looking really good mate. The roof looks especially superb. I find it amazing that you have done all this single handedly!



Chris - cheers for the link, will check it out.

Matty - the ply I have is the far eastern WBP hardwood one - 22mm thick. Selco were doing it for about £15\sheet - so I just bought a load. The cheaper (normally) shuttering ply would have the edges lipping up - but eastern hardwood WBP?


----------



## PaulO

Dibs-h":217136ym said:


> Now that you mention costs\savings - strange no-one has asked what the costs have been so far.



What have the costs been so far? Aside from the human cost of muscular / skeletal damage


----------



## Dibs-h

PaulO":1ud4z2jn said:


> Dibs-h":1ud4z2jn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that you mention costs\savings - strange no-one has asked what the costs have been so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What have the costs been so far? Aside from the human cost of muscular / skeletal damage
Click to expand...


Well I've lost (and kept off more importantly) just over a stone in weight, but obviously you're not asking about that sort of poundage. :wink:

I've already paid for the Rosemary tiles for the new garage as well as the Tyvek for it - so some things have been bought forward. Including these Phase 2 items (i.e. for the additional garage\basement) the *total costs so far are £4,700* - that's everything.

Done absolutely sod all lately - at the moment dealing with a Compaq Server\SBS 2003 that's misbehaving - favours?? I'm sure some of you know what I mean - favours getting out of hand.

I expect it to finish at around £5,500 - the build that is.


----------



## billybuntus

Thats not bad at all considering the space you now have.

I know all too well about those favours, I've managed to knock the phonecall everynight asking how to do this and that on the head.

IT is more time consuming than any other trades favours and the favours also tend to not earn you much back.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: no piccies. Sod all has happened - got the SBS 2003\Compaq server sorted.

I'm at the stage where I need to get the floor down, build up the stud walls and put the insulation in the roof, but 4" Kingspan ain't cheap and these 2nds boys ain't all that cheap.

Got a load sorted for tomorrow - might have the roof insulated over the weekend if all goes well. Assuming I can get the DPM down and BR don't have any issues. Can't imagine so, haven't had any probs so far.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Haven't got any piccies unfortunately. I got some Kingspan type insulation. 

Absolute stonking price - each board was 4' x 8' (min). Some went to 12'.

40 boards all in - if not a few extra, basically 2 LWB Sprinter loads - £200 in all. PM me if you want the chaps details - and it's kosher. I collected from a factory - Liverpool way.

Admittedly no foil on them - but as it's full fill insulation - who cares & I don't believe it makes an ounce of difference, and BR don't care.

Spent the last week or so - measuring, measuring again, cutting and fitting it. Got almost 1/2 way doing the rafters. At the moment, the workshop is rammed to almost bursting point with this stuff and the other insulation. Going to be so glad when it's all fitted.


----------



## mark

Dibs,
You've done fantastically well to get the building you have for under £200/sq.m. I'm self-building mine at the moment (a combined workshop/garden store/greenhouse). Size is 5x13m and I'm aiming for the £300/sq.m mark - construction is slightly different from yours though in that it's cavity wall/insulated slab etc.
Before I embarked on the self-build I had a quote from an oak framer for a basic shell on top of a provided (by me) base - Over £800/sq.m for an unfinished shell not including any groundworks!!!
*Inspirational stuff Dibs - keep at it.*
Mark


----------



## Triggaaar

Dibs-h":yh0rmlhj said:


> 40 boards all in - if not a few extra, basically 2 LWB Sprinter loads - £200 in all. PM me if you want the chaps details


That's a great deal Dibs, well done.



> Admittedly no foil on them - but as it's full fill insulation - who cares & I don't believe it makes an ounce of difference


No, I don't think it does. You need a little gap for the foil to do anything.



> Now that you mention costs\savings - strange no-one has asked what the costs have been so far


I did think about asking 6 months ago, but thought you'd either want to keep it to yourself, or you'd volunteer it at some point. You must be very proud of your job, it's amazing you've done it so cheaply.


----------



## Dibs-h

*Update:* Got all the insulation fitted in the rafter spaces. All except for the 3 rafters above the trusses which require it fitting in smaller pieces (one's done). Took some piccies - but left the cable to connect phone to PC at home! I'll post some piccies up this evening, otherwise as we all know - no piccies means it never happened!


----------



## Dibs-h

*Piccies:* Her's a couple of shots of most of the rafter spaces having been insulated,






This one shows just the spaces above the trusses remaining to be done. As of yesterday evening only 1 remains - so should have that one done this evening.






One of the insulation boards as they came - still loads left over.


----------



## scholar

Hi Dibs

It is looking very neat.

What is the insulation you are fitting? I know you said it is like Kingspan without the foil - in the pictures it looks like polystyrene. I am looking for something to add some insulation to my loft and do not want to fit foil as it will shield the tv and radio signals, so this stuff may be just what I want. 

I would be wary of using polystyrene due to fire considerations but I am guessing yours is not actually polystyrene.

cheers


----------



## Dibs-h

scholar":l0g20glh said:


> Hi Dibs
> 
> It is looking very neat.
> 
> What is the insulation you are fitting? I know you said it is like Kingspan without the foil - in the pictures it looks like polystyrene. I am looking for something to add some insulation to my loft and do not want to fit foil as it will shield the tv and radio signals, so this stuff may be just what I want.
> 
> I would be wary of using polystyrene due to fire considerations but I am guessing yours is not actually polystyrene.
> 
> cheers



It's definitely not polystyrene and is identical to Kingspan\Celotex - when you cut it with a handsaw, there's no mistaking that smell! 

I'm off to finish the last bit and will hopefully take a better picture - the last ones looked totally rubbish.

Dibs


----------



## Acanthus

Hi Dibbs, 

So what has been happening? we need updates (please)


----------



## Dibs-h

I got some! Let me have a cuppa and wake up properly! :wink:


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Well after what seemed like an eternity wrapping Router Plates - I'm back on with the shed.

Thursday - went and got some Syntaprufe and did the back wall. Took bloody ages. Thankfully virtually none of it on me!

Friday - did a few trips to the lumber yard. 4"x4" for the base plates all round and 4"x2" for the "joists". Not to mention getting it in to the shed somewhere. The kingpost trusses paid off - lots of storage up there!

Sat - sod all as I went to collect Wifey & Kids! Got back late in the afternoon, but managed to get the 2nd coat of Synthaprufe on the back wall.

Sunday - bloody hell! Time for the DPM & Flooring. Decided to to it in 3 sections, i.e. between each bay, that way I don't kill myself emptying the entire contents out!

Got all the batt insulation out and a fair amount of the board insulation out into the garden, swep the floor up, abosultely loads of "dust\shavings" from having fitted the insulation in the rafters. Went & found the Visqueen and cut off 1 length!







That's not a stud wall - that's just somethig having up in the air out of the way!

Here you can see the back wall. The intention is to lap the DPM up - but not all the way up - can't see the point of it going that far up. Basically to the existing DPC on the rest of the walls and a little bit higher on the back wall.






Laid the 4"x4"'s on the back wall, front wall & on the side - fitting 4"x2"'s in between and then 2 lots of noggins. All screwed together with 3" screws & an impact driver! Then starting cutting the 4" Kingspan stuff and fitting that. Got almost half of that "bay" done last night.






Then the annoying part - putting all the stuff outside, back in! I could have left it - the likelihood of getting it nicked is negligible - but it wouldn't half screw stuff up for me - so better safe than sorry!

Plan to get the rest of the insulation into that bay this eveing and hopefully get the ply down. Be a relief getting that insulation fitted - it ain't half taking space up! Then shuffle stuff about and start on another bay!

Checked the floor in a few places with a spirit level and the bubble is between the lines so happy enough.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Cleared out part of the workshop again and got on with putting some more insulation down, followed by tidying up and getting ready for the rest. Here's a piccy of bay 1 finished,






Hopefully get stuff moved around this evening and maybe make a start on another bay.

I'm going to do the other end and then finish the middle bay. Got tomorrow off work, so hoping to have the entire floor finished tomorrow evening.


----------



## wobblycogs

Looking really good. That's going to be one amazing workshop once it's finished. How come the insulation is yellow up one side in that last picutre?


----------



## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":252rsku6 said:


> Looking really good. That's going to be one amazing workshop once it's finished. How come the insulation is yellow up one side in that last picutre?



Been outside a bit I suspect - UV. Seen that on regular Kingspan as well, but admittedly on the edges as there is foil on the flat bits.


----------



## Dibs-h

Took Wednesday off in the hope of getting the floor finished - did bloody well! Literally. Almost finished the joists around 13:30 then disaster struck and I spent the next 3-4 hours in A&E and Plastic Surgery!

Not much in the way of pain - so when I got back I thought, I haven't got a great deal left and it's only insulation! So with my good hand,










More progress might be slower now for the next several weeks - but we'll see.

Dibs


----------



## wobblycogs

Sorry to hear about the accident, you've done well for someone with only one working hand. 

If you're ok talking about it though, please, you can't leave us with just that little bit of information about the accident. What power tool bit you? I'm guessing circular saw.

Either way, hope you get well soon and heal up well.


----------



## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":2zsyig6k said:


> Sorry to hear about the accident, you've done well for someone with only one working hand.
> 
> If you're ok talking about it though, please, you can't leave us with just that little bit of information about the accident. What power tool bit you? I'm guessing circular saw.
> 
> Either way, hope you get well soon and heal up well.



I'm ok talking about it - just a little annoyed with myself as I'm usually supersafe.

Here's the nitty gritty - https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/hand ... 43807.html

Dibs


----------



## bucephalus

Sorry to hear about the accident - hope you are feeling better soon. 

This workshop thread is the one that introduced me to this site and these forums, and I have followed it with great interest - hope you get to complete it soon. 

It's also the thread that convinced me I needed a pre-built workshop, having neither the skills or the strong back needed to do a job half as good as this one!

Thanks for an inspiring and informative read so far.


----------



## Dibs-h

bucephalus":391vjg6w said:


> Sorry to hear about the accident - hope you are feeling better soon.
> 
> This workshop thread is the one that introduced me to this site and these forums, and I have followed it with great interest - hope you get to complete it soon.
> 
> It's also the thread that convinced me I needed a pre-built workshop, having neither the skills or the strong back needed to do a job half as good as this one!
> 
> Thanks for an inspiring and informative read so far.



Cheers mate!

I'm back in tomorrow to have the stitches removed (and possibly see someone). But will be back in the shop by this weekend to carry on with the insulation and maybe lay the joists in the middle bay. I'm off work for most of next week - so probably will get back on with the shop as there is only so much daytime TV one can watch! :roll:

I so wish I'd built one yrs ago!

As for a pre-built one - unless you specifically need a brick\block\stone one - a wooden one (even self made) goes up a lot quicker and easier!


----------



## Dibs-h

Update - progress. I've been venturing in and out of the shop. Spent most of Bank Holiday Monday in there and ached the day after - so had some R&R for a few days. :wink: Spent a little bit of time in there this weekend. Got the bearers down in the final bay (middle 1/3) after having got the DPM down and joined it to the rest with some thick - what I can only assume is some Butyl - tape.

And then on with filling with insulation.

This was progress upto Monday,






and yesterday progress,






Hopefully get the rest of it in tonight & perhaps a little planing on a few of the bearers - just so the ply is easier to lay down.

One thing I've realised is that I could have down with setting the stone cill at the base of the door a tad higher - but will get away with taking the door off and taking 5-10mm of the bottom.

Dibs.

I can't really say from experience but is it really that much more different working on a wooden floor than working on a concrete floor? Dropping tools aside. Just curious.


----------



## cmwatt

WOW! :shock: Just finished reading all 20 pages (read first ten last night lol) as I've just joined the forum and must say im really impressed! The roof looks particularly fantastic, im sure it'll look great when finished completely. One thing I might have done is stuck a couple of velux's in though for more natural light? I would also recommend a wood burning stove, particularly for those cold winter evenings. Great stuff, would love to build my own workshop one day! 

Craig. 

Edit - Oh and hows the hand doing?


----------



## Dibs-h

cmwatt":5b97phwt said:


> WOW! :shock: Just finished reading all 20 pages (read first ten last night lol) as I've just joined the forum and must say im really impressed! The roof looks particularly fantastic, im sure it'll look great when finished completely. One thing I might have done is stuck a couple of velux's in though for more natural light? I would also recommend a wood burning stove, particularly for those cold winter evenings. Great stuff, would love to build my own workshop one day!
> 
> Craig.
> 
> Edit - Oh and hows the hand doing?



I'm glad you like it Craig. There's been times when I was sick to the back teeth of it. :lol:

I did think about Veluxes - and the front of the workshop is south facing, but I'm planning to fit solar panels for hotwater on that roof & the adjoining (yet unbuilt) new garage roof. If the roof was say on a 2nd storey then I might have been tempted - but on a single storey, just a little uncomfortable from a security perspective.

I have a wood burner in mind - so much so that the adjoining garage will have the chimney\flue for it - so aesthetically it'll look good too.

The hand is coming along - I can squeeze one of those foam balls almost fully now, whereas when the stitches came out - could barely make a dent in it. Just getting used to the recovery - little electric shock sensations and such like in the finger.

I'm hoping to get the floor in this weekend, so I can start fitting the batt insulation in the stud walls (yet to put up) - and finally start recovering some of the internal space!

Dibs

p.s. Oh - welcome to the forum!


----------



## MickCheese

Is it really nearly two years that I have been following your exploits?

I will be sad once you finish, it's been like a soap every few evenings I get an update.  

I have really enjoyed your write-ups and cannot wait to see the finished article. I do think it is a most beautiful out-building and one you should be very proud of.

Not long to go now!

Well done. =D> 

Mick


----------



## Dibs-h

MickCheese":1odo4np8 said:


> Is it really nearly two years that I have been following your exploits?
> 
> I will be sad once you finish, it's been like a soap every few evenings I get an update.
> 
> I have really enjoyed your write-ups and cannot wait to see the finished article. I do think it is a most beautiful out-building and one you should be very proud of.
> 
> Not long to go now!
> 
> Well done. =D>
> 
> Mick



Lord it feels like it sometimes. :shock: Feels like an open prison - they let me out to go to the day job and then back in for this. :lol:

The start date of the thread is slightly misleading in that, the date is when I decided to have a shed and the planning stage started.

Started the build itself at the beginning of June 2009. So I'm in the 2nd yr - but this build can't take 2 yrs, otherwise Wifey ain't going to be too pleased!


----------



## MickCheese

Sorry

Should have whispered :wink: 

Still a work of art though, and that takes time.

Mick


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Got final lot of insulation in yesterday, had a cracking day literally! 






So cracking it hurt.

I took the door off the hinges to cut 5mm off the bottom as the floor gets in the way of the door opeing & closing. Put it back on and the decided to try putting the Aluminium thingy back on at the bottom. So here's me lying on the floor head near the door and can't hold the Aluminium thingy (door threshold whotsit), screwdriver and the door still with almost 2 hands.

So I push the door back thinking that at some point it's going to stop - does it hell. The top catches aload of 12" cam and Bessey clamps hung loosely on the tie beam, they come off and fall down the front of the door.

Yes - one of the Besseys catches me right on the forehead - end 1st! Then to rub it in - the side catches me just to the side of the eyebrow.

Thankfully no unconsciousness or anything - just turned the air blue for 5 mins, pulled the remaining clamps off and threw them all in the far end of the shop, cussing even more!

Then went in the house and sat down on the couch with an Ice pack on it and a million questions like "What happened Dad?" Then a wave of mild nausea later that night. Today - thankfully no nausea, still a very mild headache and most of all no bruise - so no need to explain that at work! 

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs, Sorry to hear that you are in the wars again. Do you wear toetectors?
I only ask this as you seem to be running out of body parts to damage. Do all workshop builds have an accident phase and is this what I've got to look forward to? Should I invest in a suit of armour, or a blobby suit? Or should Diane take out extra insurance now?
I hope that you are now fully recovered and back on the case.

Kind regards...Dick


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":32scrbx7 said:


> Hi Dibs, Sorry to hear that you are in the wars again. Do you wear toetectors?
> I only ask this as you seem to be running out of body parts to damage. Do all workshop builds have an accident phase and is this what I've got to look forward to? Should I invest in a suit of armour, or a blobby suit? Or should Diane take out extra insurance now?
> I hope that you are now fully recovered and back on the case.
> 
> Kind regards...Dick



I've always worn toetectors - have 3 pairs, 1 for car work, 1 for general stuff and another pair for inside work (which don't mark floors etc. which usually get worn for work in the shed). Invest in some if you haven't any. Get some with steel midsoles - stops nails from going thru - DAMHIKT!

I'd also recommend some safety glasses - Bolle do some really nice ones and they are cheap.

http://www.safetysupermarket.co.uk/Products.aspx?i=773

Never bought from them but you can see the ones I'm on about - don't get the 1 pair, get several. I have some Bolle ones and they are very good.

I would also get a full face visor - worth having one. The best buy would probably be those latex covered builders gloves. You'd struggle to beat this sort of price,

http://www.gloves4work.co.uk/products.p ... =search_id

I bought several dozen some yrs ago and am probably down to the last several pairs.

Accident phase - I know what you mean. It must be that, generally never had an accident (touch wood) and then like a London bus, all came at once! 

Hopefully back in the shop tomorrow and get the floor down.

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi dibs, As it happens I worked in the bottling industry - lots of broken glass. So I am sorted for boots and safety glasses for a while; but the bolle look good.
At the moment we are using gardening gloves, rather like the builders gloves with the latex palm and fingers, but a bit heavier.However, they are more expensive than the gloves4work site, so we will use them when more are required, thanks for the links.

Hope you managed to get some more done to the floor, isn’t work a nuisance.
We have finally had dry weather so are moving on with the brickwork. A brickie would laugh at our pace, but we are getting there...TTFN...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Progress. Well not at last, but slowly been getting there.

Built up almost all of the stud walling on the 3 walls. The wall that butts up against the garage (yet to to be built) - I'm not bothering.

View of the front - showing LH (if looking from the outside) window







RH (if looking from the outside) window,






I was so thankful that the stud wall on the gable and the front met without complicating matters, i.e. everything on 16" centres. The above picture - there is one more stud to go on the gable end. You can see it better here,






Just have the nogins on the gable wall and the RH bay to do.






The back wall due to the "return\dwarf wall" - the only way I could figure out to do is,






i.e. 1 length of 4"x2" on it's side - half on the "return" (there is only about 2" of it sticking out anyway) and half on lengths of 4"x2" turned sideways.

The foam - that was just a bit of experimenting - had half a can (gun grade) so just filled in the small gaps behind the studs, on the reason that weak adhesion over a large area would be a stronger bond than say a strong force over a small area. Sort of a wall ties if you know what I mean. Obviously not thermally broken and doesn't break the Synthaprude coating either.

Got the BR chap coming round hopefully Wed am - so should be able to put all that batt insulation where it belongs as opposed to constantly getting in the way.

Just need to hunt down some polythene or similar of the correct gauge as the vapour barrier. Any thoughts as to what the correct('ish) thickness should be? Obviously doesn't need to be anywhere the same thickness as DPM!

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs, 

It's looking good. I see you have used wbp ply for the floor; is it t & g or butted? I was considering the same for my floor.
I have cast around the net and it seems that 500 gauge is the thickness used.
Are you sure that you need a VCL? Do you sweat a lot, or are you going to take baths in there? :wink: I would suspect that the RH will be greater outside (especially at this time of year) than in the workshop. Just an observation, having worked outside all day. It was damp as hell this morning and then again after five ish. Even the open fronted barnette felt drier. I seem to remember Mike Garnham suggesting not to bother, and just paint the osb/ply.

Having been reading the American 'Building Science' site, vapour transmission is a complex affair. It's about where the dew point is reached that is critical.
This is usually at the external sheathing which then rots - not that you will have that problem. I wonder whether more vapour would come from the block wall than from the inside of the workshop? I don't mean to alarm you, just giving you something to ponder. 

Regards...Dick.....PS. I have sent you a PM.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cheers Dick. The vapour barrier is just a belt and braces approach. The building spec is that for a dwelling just incase there is a PP change of use in the future.

I'm going to line the walls with fireline plasterboard not osb. Just personal preference.

Thanks for the steer on the vapour barrier gauge.

The flooring is 18mm wbp ply, Selco had it on special offer for around 14 quid a sheet when i bought it. Will be laying it butt jointed.

Cheers

Dibs.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Had the Building Inspector in last week and he wants the inner stud walls ply lined as they load bearing. Also 3 rows of noggins breaking up the wall into 4 similar sized sections.






And additional uprights up against the piers - screwed into the piers. Didn't have to bother on the gable end as the studs there aren't load bearing.






Then on with the Rockwool insulation - after the initial "God this is a bit thick" and realising that I'd cut 2 batts in half and not realised. Once that penny dropped - just plodded on. Got all the "sections" filled in as much as possible with single pieces and then went back with the offcuts.






Finally finished all the insulation yesterday evening. In one or two places - like where 2 studs are very close only leaving a couple of inches - I fitted some Kingspan stuff instead. And some expanding foam in others.






I'd started with 15 bundles or Rockwool - how many have I got left 7! How on earth I'd ordered 15 I don't know, add to that 20 boards of the rigid stuff. I haven't quite freed up as much free space as I'd wanted! 

I had bought enough of the rigid stuff for the garage roof as well. I have enough of the Rockwool stuff for the garage or it's basement but not both - so I can't see it as having been bought, as it was cheap. Will have to count a little better next time.

Going to vapour barrier the gable as it's only getting drywalled, and laying the floor down by Wed evening. Thursday - all the 1/2" ply is coming for the walls and roof - along with some extra sheets for the garage & it's works (going to take 1/2 the garage down so need to close the end off and the adjoining drystone wall is coming down so need to erect some temporary hoarding along 5m of boundary).

Dibs


----------



## wobblycogs

Looking really good dibs. Not far to go now now. and you'll have the workshop to end all workshops. 

I must have misunderstood something though. I was under the impression that the roof rested on the block work but you seem to be implying that, at the back at least, the roof rests on the stud work?


----------



## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":e1ctdqtg said:


> Looking really good dibs. Not far to go now now. and you'll have the workshop to end all workshops.
> 
> I must have misunderstood something though. I was under the impression that the roof rested on the block work but you seem to be implying that, at the back at least, the roof rests on the stud work?



The only thing that rests on the front & back walls is the ends of the King Post trusses - directly on the piers. The purlins rest in the gable walls. Pole Plates (according to the old books that I came across) are cogged into the Truss ends and go into the walls. These sit inside the block walls.

Hopefully a piccy is worth a thousand words.






If you look at the above piccy - you see the Pole Plates - I've sort of ringed it in red. These are inside the blockwork. You will also see the "notches" in the block work for the rafter feet.

My stud work (front & back) is therefore loadbearing. Hence the 3 rows of noggins and ply over boarding. Whereas if you look at the Gable end, the studwork there isn't load bearing, so no overply and less noggins.

Hope it's clearer than mud.

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,

You are really steaming ahead now, as Wobbly Cogs said. With all those noggings, I think that you have had as many cuts to make as I have...just at 90°though :wink: 
It must be a lonely existence, doing it all on your own, does it bother you,or do you prefer it?

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Henning

Keep up the good work, Dibs! 

Still very impressed by your roof. If i end up building a workshop, i'll look into if i can build something similar here.


----------



## Dibs-h

Dick

You are right, at times it is boring and lonely but a lot of things fall into that category.

Thankfully the timberwork hasn't been boring.

I just stick my headphones on and listen to music on the phone or a radio station. So time passes well. The most mind numbing had to be bringing all the blocks from the front, down the drive onto the dig. Equally boring was bringing all the rosemary tiles from the patio, stacking them on the front, climbing up and then stacking them on the back. Glad to see the back of that, I can tell you that.

Cheers

Dibs



Cegidfa":3om0r9j4 said:


> Hi Dibs,
> 
> You are really steaming ahead now, as Wobbly Cogs said. With all those noggings, I think that you have had as many cuts to make as I have...just at 90°though :wink:
> It must be a lonely existence, doing it all on your own, does it bother you,or do you prefer it?
> 
> Regards...Dick.


----------



## wobblycogs

Thanks for the (very clear) explanation. 

I must admit that at first I thought why not just rest the roof on the walls but now I think about it that's a really clever design. The stud work front and back neatly hides the pillars and, since it had to be there anyway for the insulation, it's not taking up extra space. Presumably as well there are no fascias or soffits to go wrong either since only the ends of the rafters protrude past the wall.


----------



## Dibs-h

There are fascias on the outside - I didn't want the ends of the rafters just left as they are. Besides it matches the look of the house as well.






There will be soffits - but this is just 6mm ply that will be screwed at 90degrees to the fasicas just to close in the space behind the rafters for the 10 or so inches outside the wall.

The soffits might be overkill - but on the main house, we had a squirrel infestation - so it's just now SOP to close them in, even tho the roof is counter-battened and has Tyvek, so no ventilation required behind the fabric.

Cheers

Dibs



wobblycogs":3nu9eyxc said:


> Thanks for the (very clear) explanation.
> 
> I must admit that at first I thought why not just rest the roof on the walls but now I think about it that's a really clever design. The stud work front and back neatly hides the pillars and, since it had to be there anyway for the insulation, it's not taking up extra space. Presumably as well there are no fascias or soffits to go wrong either since only the ends of the rafters protrude past the wall.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: So much stuff gets in the way, I kinda need another workshop for the the stuff. Mostly overbought insulation (rigid & batt), but it'll get used up in the garage\basement - so will just live with it for now.

Emptied all of it out into the garden - prompting comparisons from Wifey to the kids about the Princess & the Pea. 

Started with the flooring at the back and then the whole boards in the middle. Took a few hours and a fair few "trims" to get it all so that any gaps were a couple of mm at the most - then just 4 or so screws to hold each board down. Just in case I feel the need to adjust anything.

Here's a piccy - haven't seen it that empty for ages!






Working out the nbr of boards - I'm just over halfway.

That was Wednesday evening. I'd worked out how many boards (1/2") I required for the walls\roof, plus a few extra possibly for external "fencing" - when I take a section of adjacent drystone wall down. This was paid for on Wed lunchtime and turned up Thurs am,






Manually getting them off the truck as they turned up in a flatbed. Thankfully between me and the driver took about 15 mins.

Then me on my own - talk about mind numbing - getting them down the drive and into the workshop - without taking off in the wind or doing myself in. Finally all 30 of them!






Hopefully make some progress on the flooring this evening.

Dibs

*p.s.* I'm using 2"x #8's for screwing the ply to the floor and studding. Expecting to have it around 6"-8" on centres. Probably less on the flooring - say every 12". Any thoughts?


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,

Just checked in the TRADA book and they recommend 150 centres at the edge of boards and 300 everywhere else. Not many people do it, but each board
for walling and flooring should be gapped all round by 3mm, to allow for expansion. The fixings should be a minimum of 8mm from the board edges.
I also checked a manufacturer's site and the same applied.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Mcluma

Can i give you a little tip on the floor boards - before its to late

do not put the floor boards under the wall, You never know if you would want to lift one, and if they are under the wall you cannot do that anymore

Just use a skirting later.

You never know if you would like to put some electrics or airlines under the floor


----------



## Dibs-h

Cheers for the advice there.

At the moment the flooring is about 1" away from the studs - this should cater for the ply and plasterboard\drylining. Although if it does look like it will cover the flooring - I'll trim the board. The intention was to always cover the final gap with skirting.

The floor is full fill insulation so might have problems with running utilities in it. :lol:

Spent all day Sat in there and to be honest it doesn't look any more advanced than it did before I got in there! :shock: 

The penny dropped that the edges of the boards didn't catch the noggins - or to be precise - some caught them fully whilst others didn't. So lifted the boards - having marked where they sat and repositioned all the affected noggins. About 3/4's in total! :evil:

Not very happy I can tell you! But at least all the board edges are now sitting on the noggins. Would have been immeasurably harder had I used nails instead of screws! At one point I went thru a "sod it, let's leave it phase!" but also knew the flex in the board edges would p!ss me off over time and when it's full (fuller I suppose as it's not empty at the mo either) would be near impossible to rectify.

Sunday - nothing, as I spent all day replacing the 20yr (or something) TRV's on all the rads and fitting one of those Magna Clean widgets just after the boiler. Now that Wifey has CH working (and on), I can get back to the workshop. 

Cheers

Dibs



Mcluma":3smyi12s said:


> Can i give you a little tip on the floor boards - before its to late
> 
> do not put the floor boards under the wall, You never know if you would want to lift one, and if they are under the wall you cannot do that anymore
> 
> Just use a skirting later.
> 
> You never know if you would like to put some electrics or airlines under the floor


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,

What a pain, It’s at times like these that you can ‘cock a snook’ at all the smart @rses that say ‘use nails, it’s cheaper’. My very reason for using screws, and, the joints are stronger.
Replacing TRV’s what a joyful job - not, but necessary. The Magna Clean is a sensible idea. 
I have had to stop the shed roof trusses to give a hand with the house roof. The chimney on the end of the house is leaking and less than upright, so we are taking it down and roofing over. What a beautiful day for it, and grand views from the top of the scaffolding.

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Alex

Looking damn good Dibs. Nearly there. 8) 
I'm busy with my own shop at the mo similar build, block build. I'm at the stud out, 3"x2" and insulate cavity batts outside walls. I was just wondering why you foamed the back of the studs and if there will be any condensation issues without this been a vented cavity, I'm planning similar. Did BC or architect spec it? I'm going to be fitting vapour barrier over stud before boarding with soundblock plasterboard. Definitely thinking of foam the back of studs now as don't want sound bridging outside wall. Just head and floor plate fixed.
Anyway thanks for posting excellent WIP. Thoroughly enjoyed following.


----------



## Dibs-h

Alex":2ds2b24j said:


> Looking damn good Dibs. Nearly there. 8)
> I'm busy with my own shop at the mo similar build, block build. I'm at the stud out, 3"x2" and insulate cavity batts outside walls. I was just wondering why you foamed the back of the studs and if there will be any condensation issues without this been a vented cavity, I'm planning similar. Did BC or architect spec it? I'm going to be fitting vapour barrier over stud before boarding with soundblock plasterboard. Definitely thinking of foam the back of studs now as don't want sound bridging outside wall. Just head and floor plate fixed.
> Anyway thanks for posting excellent WIP. Thoroughly enjoyed following.



Hi Alex

The foaming behind the studs - that was just a little experiment. Didn't go anywhere in the end. In the end I just drilled a hole right the the stud (every 2nd stud) and inserted a RapierStar screw straight into the block work. To affect the same sort of thing as a wall tie. Made a massive difference in the gable wall - even tho the stud isn't load bearing there.

There shouldn't be any condensation issues there - i.e. warm moisture laden air meeting cold air\surface - as I'm over boarding with 12mm ply. It seems fairly universal that using ply - due to it's glue lines - negates the need for a vapour barrier. In the case of the gable wall - which won't be getting ply'd - I'll be putting a vapour barrier up first and then the drywall.

*Update: * Floor is down, except the last piece in front of the door, but I need to remove the Aluminium weather bar and fit a timber threshold and weather bar first.

Due to my less than perfect block work and the fact that the roof got tiled before the inner stud wall went up, a few issues arose when fitting the studs. When the studs where fitted - I made sure that each was plumb, but as there are effectively 3 wall sections at the back - there was always going to be a possibility that they wouldn't all be in line. Also the face of the piers - there was about 5-10mm difference between top & bottom, i.e. not perfectly plumb. 

I realised this when fitting the studs and it was accepted that I would "fix" this later. I ran a string line across the back wall - almost at the top and almost at the bottom. The front face of the studs were at different depths from the string.

So yesterday - ran several lengths of 4"x2" thru the table saw cutting pieces (shims or whatever the word is) to bring the front face to a consistent depth from the string line, and allowing the ply to go straight across the piers. Thickness ranged from 10-20mm. Nailed these on with brad nailer - I'll screw thru these when the ply is fitted. So now the variation is within several mm's - which I'm much happier with. Altho I suspect - overkill.

Annoying thing was the brad nailer jammed last night, Aldi el-cheapo seems to have packed up. Will try to fix it this evening - but have ordered a new Bostich Brad nailer - for tomorrow. - http://www.screwfix.com/prods/71212/Pow ... Nailer-18g in case anyone is interested. Better than paying £130! And certainly better than having El Cheapo's go bang. Mind you for the peanuts I paid for El-Cheapo - it did well.

Back in tonight - bit of luck might just get the wall ply'ed. Altho - probably do the roof 1st, as the offcuts can then be used elsewhere.

Will post up some piccies tomorrow.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Alex

Thanks for replying. I thought maybe the the foam was for cold bridging or stopping damp. I might staple some 4"DPC to the back of my studs to protect from damp/cold bridging, foam just look so much easier. :wink: 
The nailers not for fixing the ply on is it? Drywall screws and impact driver what you need but you knew that. :wink:
Are peers going to be uninsulated then?
I build mine on the outside to avoid faffing about. I might have to put some pics on here so you can see I'm not trying to take the mick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Hi Alex

No the nailer is for fixing the shims on the studs. I'm using an impact driver and 2 inch nbr 8's to fix the ply.

The piers will be uninsulated. To have insulated them would have reduced the internal width and meant using 6 inch studs which would have increased the costs. There is something called aerogel, which is like a cloth with a u value of 0.07 and 5mm thick but the cost is 45 GBP per sqm. But the payback is unrealistic.

Sods law, came to use el cheapo brad nailer and it worked faultlessly. 

Cheers

Dibs



Alex":2sokorwn said:


> Thanks for replying. I thought maybe the the foam was for cold bridging or stopping damp. I might staple some 4"DPC to the back of my studs to protect from damp/cold bridging, foam just look so much easier. :wink:
> The nailers not for fixing the ply on is it? Drywall screws and impact driver what you need but you knew that. :wink:
> Are peers going to be uninsulated then?
> I build mine on the outside to avoid faffing about. I might have to put some pics on here so you can see I'm not trying to take the mick.


----------



## john bossley

hi dibs, all i can say is WOW , i've just had to read this completely through from the start, very impresive, also given me a good few ideas for my pathetic shed. by the way how is the hand, jb.


----------



## Dibs-h

Hi John

Glad you like it. It!s been a labour alright, sometimes love but more like penance at times.

The hand is physically recovered and the feeling is coming back so count myself very lucky.

No work on the shed today, spent the day commisioning a CAT6 network for a client and getting ready for VOIP in a week or so time. Not what I would have liked to have been doing but you can't turn down paid work, especially when it pays well.

Hopefully get to spend all day in the shed tomorrow. 

Cheers

Dibs



john bossley":2if3es45 said:


> hi dibs, all i can say is WOW , i've just had to read this completely through from the start, very impresive, also given me a good few ideas for my pathetic shed. by the way how is the hand, jb.


----------



## john bossley

hi dibs, glad the hand is ok, i'm in my shed at the moment now,doing a few things , cleaning up,cutting up, just head butted the end of my panel saw,ouch,thing is my early warning sysem has worn out [hair] so i dont know when i'm getting tooo close to to something hard,oohh my head hurts,jb.


----------



## Alex

JB, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: My tablesaw had a rail on side for sliding table after catching my gollies :shock: one to many times I fitted a tennis ball soooooooo much better. :twisted:

Dibs, started studding my walls out yesterday, that reminds me I need screws toolstation/screwfix here I come. I'll get some pics up soon.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: well finally something that feels like progress!

Finished "shimming" the back wall so that everything is in line and that the piers are effectively recessed into it, thereby allowing the ply to go straight in front of them.







Laid a sheet of ply against the wall and marked the floor - then lifted the 3.5 panels on the floor - moving stuff all around the place and trim the ply so that the ply sheets on the floor don't end up under the sheets of ply on the wall. No piccies of that as I was trying not to kill myself lifting and cutting ply sheets in a confined space.

Decided to start fitting some sheets wherever possible - just to reduce the total number of sheets that I keep having to move around from one pile to another.  

Started with the roof - did the metal strap first






Then on with the 1st board - these don't go all the way into the corner of the eaves as I would probably end up with a similar situation with the floor sheets in the wall and difficult to lift afterwards, if there was a requirement.






At this point I left the roof alone - preferring to do the back wall, as psychologically it would feel better, etc. :lol:

Here's the 1st sheet on the back wall - 






bit of luck might have the back wall complete this evening.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## kirkpoore1

Hi, Dibs:

I just started reading your thread, and it looks like you're doing great. In doing your ceiling, do you have a drywall lift (or I guess you'd call it a plasterboard lift) available? One of these:





It made a world of difference using one when I did my shop last year. 

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":3b94ol94 said:


> Hi, Dibs:
> 
> I just started reading your thread, and it looks like you're doing great. In doing your ceiling, do you have a drywall lift (or I guess you'd call it a plasterboard lift) available? One of these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It made a world of difference using one when I did my shop last year.
> 
> Kirk



Hi Kirk

They are available here and they can be hired - but my experience with hiring things is that jobs never take the weekend you think they will and when you take it back it would have been cheaper to have bought it.  Did that once with a few acro-props. 

Besides access externally is a bit - how shall we say less than perfect at the moment. :wink:

I've had a pair of the following,






for a few years and they certainly make life easy. These will easily do the boards in the bit between the eaves and purlins. For the upper run (i.e. purlins to ridgeboard) probably rig something up using the tiebeams of the trusses.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dibs-h":2qaz5835 said:


> Hi Kirk
> 
> They are available here and they can be hired - but my experience with hiring things is that jobs never take the weekend you think they will and when you take it back it would have been cheaper to have bought it.  Did that once with a few acro-props.
> 
> Besides access externally is a bit - how shall we say less than perfect at the moment. :wink:
> 
> I've had a pair of the following,
> ...
> for a few years and they certainly make life easy. These will easily do the boards in the bit between the eaves and purlins. For the upper run (i.e. purlins to ridgeboard) probably rig something up using the tiebeams of the trusses.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dibs



Yea, I know what you mean. Since I didn't know how long I'd need it, I actually bought a used one from a guy who'd only bought it to do his basement. When I was done with it, I sold it to somebody else, for almost the same price. I did the same thing with scaffolding. And your --what, polejack?-- doesn't take up room. The drywall lift was in the way every minute I wasn't using it. 

Good luck on your walls and ceiling this weekend...

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":3j7e8i9g said:


> The drywall lift was in the way every minute I wasn't using it.
> Kirk



Kirk

I know what you mean - at the moment, everything is in the way. 

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs, 

Glad that the hand is recovering, feeling does take a long time to return - if it is going to.I routed my hand many years ago, rushing to finish for Christmas.
Luckily, the doc on duty was also a plastic surgeon and she steri-stripped the jagged cuts together. She asked if the students could watch as they didn't get many of these types of wound. There were so many of them that I offered to stand in the corridor and thrust my arm through the door, that raised a few laughs. 
You are getting on ok now, but it must seem like forever. As to lifting the ply sheets up to the ceiling, inevitably, on your own - I still reckon that you could pm me some spare muscles :wink:
My build seems to have slowed, but it takes an eternity to do all the different cuts and make all the gussets. It will be a case of 'look, we have a roof,' one day soon; if it ever stops ***** raining (insert expletive of choice).
We took delivery of the TS55 the other day, what a difference in the use compared to clamping a rail. It speeded up the gusset manufacture no end,
and when stacked together they were all the same size, exactly - worth every penny.

Regards....Dick


----------



## Dibs-h

*Update:*

Managed to get a full day Sat on the shed. Sunday - had one of those can't be ars'd moments. A straight 9 hrs on Sat - guy's got to have a break sometime.

After weighing up the advice on the vapour barrier - decided to fit it, as I hadn't fitted many ply sheets thus far.

Here's the vapour barrier stapled on,






I screwed a few "battons" on the side of the tie beam where it goes onto the pier, to give the ply there something to screw to.






Getting there,






Almost there 






Bloody relief I can tell you - but that's only the back wall. 







Fitted the strap to the wall - 






Vapour barrier on the ceiling - 1st row, so to speak. Spent ages looking for the staple gun, only to find it on the floor and probably walked over it a million times! Not a happy bunny!






1st row boarded - a relief






Then went round on all the boards on the wall, putting screws in every 6" round the perimeter of them and 12" elsewhere. I can see this little adventure eating screws! Not to mention potentially draining the NiMhs on the Makita quicker than the charger can charge them. Using 2 batteries. I think the new spare in the shelf isn't going to be spare much longer.

Got the day off tomorrow so assuming I don't have a snooze - should be some progress.

Dibs


----------



## kirkpoore1

Looks really nice so far, Dibs. Just remember, it's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer--it feels so go when you stop.

Kirk


----------



## big soft moose

Dibs-h":w9gafpbg said:


> Then went round on all the boards on the wall, putting screws in every 6" round the perimeter of them and 12" elsewhere. I can see this little adventure eating screws!



whats the particular rerason for uising screws - I would have thought that this was a job for mr paslode


----------



## Dibs-h

big soft moose":24cspnl5 said:


> whats the particular rerason for uising screws - I would have thought that this was a job for mr paslode



Did fancy a Paslode ages ago, but other tools were higher in the list of wants\needs, so didn't get one. During the build a few things have had to be moved\adjusted a tad and rework is *so* much easier with screws than nails.


----------



## Mcluma

Must be getting lovely warm in there :wink:


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":2m3h0wfh said:


> Must be getting lovely warm in there :wink:



I have been keeping an eye on the wall thermometer every now and then when in the workshop - it's been around 8-10 degrees C most evenings this week. When the outside has been around 1-2 degrees.

Haven't felt the need for any heating as long as you are doing stuff.

Ended up snoozing this morning so didn't get into the shop as early as I would have liked.  Just fitted the vapour barrier on the 2nd row (i.e. between purlin and ridge on the back roof) and getting ready for the ply. So not looking forward to that.

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Managed to get 2 sheets on the second row. A row seems to take just about 3.5 sheets and takes ages. Proper man handling them up there and then fitting them.

This morning my back is saying - I'm sure you can guess what it's saying. Going to have to dream up some method of dealing with these upper rows of boards - getting medieval with them only ends up in soreness the day after. 

I think I'm going to leave the drywalling until sometime (probably a long time) later, i.e. when the adjoining garage\basement has been built and the workshop is a lot less cluttered.

Might try and spend an hr or 2 in there this evening and see if I can get the 2nd row finished.

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

Dibs,

maybe its best if you wait until you have two people helping you, then it could all be done in half a morning

Don't put you'r back out

get some people in on a saterday morning, and it will be done quicker and maybe also better

do not make compromises


----------



## Dibs-h

Well, popped down to Rotherham and collected a drywall lift. Lifts a panel 16 feet which should do even the highest boards. Got it into car ok, bloody difficult at the home end. Ended up taking all the bits out of the box in the drive. It's all sat in the house until I get it into the shed tomorrow. Had to dash off after dropping it off, only day I could make it to Harrogate. Few hundred quid lighter. 

Hopefully get a good day in the shed tomorrow.

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

Dibs-h":215rqb0r said:


> Well, popped down to Rotherham and collected a drywall lift. Lifts a panel 16 feet which should do even the highest boards. Got it into car ok, bloody difficult at the home end. Ended up taking all the bits out of the box in the drive. It's all sat in the house until I get it into the shed tomorrow. Had to dash off after dropping it off, only day I could make it to Harrogate. Few hundred quid lighter.
> 
> Hopefully get a good day in the shed tomorrow.
> 
> Dibs



good choice


----------



## Dibs-h

Didn't even go into the shed on Sunday. Just had one of those - "easy" days.

Went down to the shed yesterday evening - took 3 trips to get all the bits down there for the lift, and about 10 mins assembling it.

Fitted the remaining strap on the back wall - 







stapled the VB back and measured up for the board, Put it on the cradle, and raised the cradle.






Bit of shoving and pushing the lift to get the board where I wanted it. Another little turn of the wheel and tight up against the rafters. I also noticed that the sprung hooks had dis-engaged at the end. Might pay more attention to that as it would get a little interesting if I wanted to get it down for some reason.






5 mins later and all screwed and lift down. Certainly is one of the better lots of £120 I've spent and damn sight less stressful on the back and less cursing in general.






Hopefully back in tonight for the front 2 rows of boards. Would be nice to get at least one row done. 

Dibs


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dibs-h":d9p8hiau said:


> 5 mins later and all screwed and lift down. Certainly is one of the better lots of £120 I've spent and damn sight less stressful on the back and less cursing in general.
> ...
> Dibs



Everything's easy with the right tool.

Kirk


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,
It might be expensive, but McLuma's suggestion was obviously a good one, if yet more expense; it's only money :shock: but your back is more important.
It costs me a lot of money going to the chiropractor every three months. I tried aping Superman whilst riding a motorcycle - not recommended.

The build is looking good now, and not so far to go to the end of the first half of the project. I take it that you will have some recouperation before starting the next section?

Regards...Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":1qj81qth said:


> Hi Dibs,
> It might be expensive, but McLuma's suggestion was obviously a good one, if yet more expense; it's only money :shock: but your back is more important.
> It costs me a lot of money going to the chiropractor every three months. I tried aping Superman whilst riding a motorcycle - not recommended.
> 
> The build is looking good now, and not so far to go to the end of the first half of the project. I take it that you will have some recouperation before starting the next section?
> 
> Regards...Dick.



£120 - it's quite cheap in the grand scheme of things and when I finish with it and sell it - I'm likely to get most of my money back I suspect (say at least half). TBH the thing thad made me discount it originally was not knowing they dismantle and 2nd'ly they are that cheap on the Bay.

I used to go to a chiropractor ages back - it's not cheap.

Recuperation - now there's a word I'd like to get familiar with. Can't see it happening tho. That's usually the several hours in bed on a Sunday. :lol:

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Last post on Nov 26 - Lord that's a long bout of CantBeArsedItis!  

There has been progress - almost all the ply has been fitted. Just been wondering whether I should ply the end gable wall studding as well. But then I would have to go and get another 5-6 sheets for when half the current garage gets demolished and I need to close the end off. Probably see how I feel tomorrow!

This morning 32 sheets of 12.5mm Fireline plasterboard turned up in the front garden courtesy of a Hi-ab. Each weighing 32Kg and all of them needing taking down the drive, over the "obstacle" course (which is the garden) and into the workshop. Paid help (was going to pay after the job) and favours both didn't materialise :roll: - so after a few errands, i.e. couldn't escape them any longer, I took them down.

Took almost 2 hours - with zero damaged boards. My arms must be at least 12" longer - it's probably the only time I've been grateful that the nerves in the left hand aren't quite 100% - otherwise I'd have paggered out half way or something.

Will hopefully post up some piccies over the weekend of the progress. Got to collect Wifey & kids tomorrow. Oh and move the newly acquired Spindle Moulder (Cheers Paul!!!) out of the hallway and hide it somewhere until it can go down to the 'shop.

I wonder if I strip it down a bit and throw a sheet over it - would it past muster as a tall side table or something? Maybe put a lamp on it.... :wink: Or just hide it behind the sofa with the rest of my stuff. :lol: 

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

Its a miracle that she hasn't complaint yet about the money you have sunk into that workshop, so do worry about that spindle moulder :lol: :lol: :lol: 


Happy New Year, be safe, healthy and happy..


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":28sxw3rh said:


> Its a miracle that she hasn't complaint yet about the money you have sunk into that workshop, so do worry about that spindle moulder :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> Happy New Year, be safe, healthy and happy..



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Dibs

p.s. found a temporary home for the spindle moulder! :lol:


----------



## MickCheese

What?

Told her is was a new spin dryer with one of those new fangled mangle thingies?  

Mick


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: I have been busy - honest.

Finished fitting the last lot of ply sheets to the roof, but thankfully just realising I hadn't fitted the last wall strap - been a bit interesting trying to fit it afterwards!






Then fitted the vapour barrier across the front and cut out for the windows and doors - 






Started fitting out the ply on the front,






Slight noggin adjustment - as the stud walls weren't perfectly inline, I'd previously run a string line across and cut strips of 2" wide timber to bring things level - obviously forgotten to do the same for a few noggins - but quick cut and some timber. The one in the picture is probably one of the worst out of line ones.






Carrying on with the ply on the front,






I'd left the last piece of the roof ply off - so fitted that,






then carrying on with the front,






Then 1 morning the plasterboard turned up - and as said before neither favours nor money were going to get me out of shifting this,






No work in progress pictures unfortunately on this one! Here it is nicely stacked - might not be perfect on end, but it's out of the way, sort of.






Then vapour barrier'd the gable wall - could have done with an extra few hands, but such is life!






Now this is where stuff slowed right down. The intention was to fit 1" Kingspan on the roof - it was agreed with Building Regs. Now I had a large pile of 4" thick board, so after a mess about with some guitar strings and power supplies of varying ampages, and some lengths of bandsaw blade - I called it a day and accepted I'd have to spend some cash. :-$ 

1" boards aren't cheap (but then neither are ones of other thicknesses) - I spotted a local'ish chap on the Bay advertising them at £10 each. Now they sell for around £14-£16, so £10 was a bargain. Me being me - I asked him how many he had and would he do a discount for qty?

So £300 later - I had 36 boards! (plus 20 delivery). So not only is it going on the roof, yes you've guessed it -* everywhere but the floor!*
















Back Wall,






Gable Wall






I haven't done the front yet - but will be doing that at the end.

Started the plasterboard on the back wall,






Back wall completed. There is a gap of 4-5" at the bottom and then fitting the skirting at a later point in time. In moving those boards - I couldn't believe I had moved them from the front , down the drive, down the garden steps and into the workshop, without killing myself or ruining a number of boards! :mrgreen: 






Then started on the roof. 






Now it's difficult to fit them long ways as the distance between the trusses or wall & truss is < 7' and the boards need to "tuck in" slightly over the truss, so went with the "cut 'em in half" approach. Yes the "joint" in the wall does carry thru into the roof, but as everything has a skin of ply, I can't see it being an issue.

I didn't bother taping the Kingspan joints with Aluminium tape as I felt that vapour barrier, 1/2" ply and the Kingspan (friction fit) didn't leave any opportunity for much!

That's all for now - but I can see light at the end of the tunnel. Did a slight sweep up of the floor at the before starting the boarding - 3 bin liners!  

Might see what the costs are for plastering - or you know what!

Dibs


----------



## wobblycogs

Blimey Dibs, your workshop is better than my house! You're going to be so warm and cosy in there you'll never want to come out. Another couple of big pushes like that and you'll be moving in. I was just wondering what you are planning on doing about the electrics as I didn't see you fitting any duct work or anything. Presumably you're going to surface mount? I think I'd probably get the place professionally plastered even though labour will probably account for 90% of the bill - I think it'll really finish the place.


----------



## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":9np15r4j said:


> Blimey Dibs, your workshop is better than my house! You're going to be so warm and cosy in there you'll never want to come out. Another couple of big pushes like that and you'll be moving in. I was just wondering what you are planning on doing about the electrics as I didn't see you fitting any duct work or anything. Presumably you're going to surface mount? I think I'd probably get the place professionally plastered even though labour will probably account for 90% of the bill - I think it'll really finish the place.



Going to surface mount the electrics - gives me flexibility (aka change my mind up to the last minute :lol

Plastering - what are you saying, that mine's going to be rubbish?? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: I know what you mean - I'll get some quotes and try to suppress my normal urge of bursting out with "How pineappling much?"

Dibs

p.s. It probably better than the house - I just hope wifey and kids don't swap and move in, leaving me the house! :lol:


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dibs-h":2hj9kk97 said:


> Going to surface mount the electrics - gives me flexibility (aka change my mind up to the last minute :lol
> ...
> Dibs



Surface mounting is great. Just make sure to mark where the studs are in the wall so you can find them when attaching everything. Done right (1), it can be pretty fast, too.





Kirk
(1)"Done right" for me was using an electrician, because my wife said "I don't want you burning the house down."


----------



## wobblycogs

sorry, I'm sure your plastering is great. I was merely thinking of my own attempts which are not too bad for an amateur (IMVHO) but not a patch on what a pro can achieve. It's one of the few jobs I think it's worth saving up and paying for.


----------



## mtr1

It really is looking fantastic Dib's, have you any thoughts about layout now? I think with all that insulation, you won't need a woodburner. But they are great for a tidy workshop, not so good if your looking for a scrap of timber though.


----------



## Dibs-h

mtr1":gxrnfch4 said:


> It really is looking fantastic Dib's, have you any thoughts about layout now? I think with all that insulation, you won't need a woodburner. But they are great for a tidy workshop, not so good if your looking for a scrap of timber though.



Cheers Mark. I don't as of yet to be honest. That's probably something to be decided by the collective wisdom of folk here! :lol: 

The only thing that springs to mind is to have put the RAS on the back wall, perhaps in the middle'ish. - the back wall is approx 7.3M long, so should easily be able deal with most timbers if the RAS is in the middle. I also have a largish old school woodworking bench which needs to go in the shop. Also a 8x4 assembly table which I'd knocked up when making the door\windows, but that's on castors, so can easily be pushed to one side.

The main kit is Lorem P\T, Kity 419 and an EB 315 B\S - these I'm thinking of putting on castors so they can be moved around as need be. Almost forgot the new Fox Spindle Moulder (but I'm thinking there is no reason why that can't go against a wall).

The one thing I do want is a small desk, etc in a corner for a pc\laptop and general tinkering.

I am thinking of bringing water into the workshop, to a small corner basin (perhaps with one of those tiny electric water heaters) - that way I'm not traipsing to the house for water.

Biggest headache for some of this year is that as soon as the shop is plastered, the garage needs emptying out into it as does my stuff round the house! Then crack on with the adjoining new garage and its basement (which will have an interconnecting doorway into the shop). All being well, the middle bay should stay empty so at least I'll have somewhere to make sawdust.

Speaking of sawdust - I put an ad in Gumtree for a domestic wheelie bin full of sawdust - that's about how much I'd generated. No responses for ages and then like a London bus, all at once. Had a chap come from Rochdale - £20. Considering I was going to burn it - no complaints! :mrgreen: 

Dibs


----------



## Vormulac

Blimey Dibs, I've just spotted this - I'm in awe! Incredible work, sir!


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,
Blimey guv'nor, you've put me to shame. Your bout of CBA wasn't really CBA, more like recuperation, after flogging yourself to death - on your own. 
Especially as you have to work as well.........respect, as they say these days.

Best wishes from a fellow Shedi Knight.

Dick.


----------



## Dibs-h

Some more progress - none last night. Had to drive over to Manchester to collect a laptop that I'd bought, but here's the progress from a couple of hours on Tuesday evening.






Half the back roof (lower row) has now been boarded. The plan is to get a row done tonight and another tomorrow, leaving a bit of a push on Sat to get the front, gable and lower row on the front roof done. Knowing my luck probably Sunday by the time I'm finished. I am so looking forward to it all being boarded - it'll look a lot less constructional and more like "almost finished".

Probably get some quotes on the plastering as well - just to see if the cost is palatable\justifiable. I'll have to go find my trowels\hawk as a backup plan - paddle mixer's already been located, so one less thing to scratch my head and ar5e and wonder where the heck it went.

Hopefully some more tonight.

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Friday - managed to get a couple of hours in the 'shop. Spent a fair bit of time moving stuff anout and clearing the floor - it was starting to resemble a tip. That didn't leave a great deal of time for boarding, but managed to get some on - 






Sat - spent all day faffing about with this laptop. Turned out to be issues with the VirginMedia connection I was using (a mates), but the downside was having to install a LAMP VM so I had local access to some Dev servers, when round at my mates. Enough of the boring stuff..


Sunday - got a got day in. Got the upper 2 rows of the roof boarded (back which I'd started on Friday and all of the front upper row).






Then a bot more moving stuff round and using all the offcuts of Kingspan to clad the front - 






It looks an absolute jigsaw - but virtually nothing wasted! One or 2 little pieces left - but it was getting late & I was somewhat shattered!

So now just the plasterboards on the front and then the last row (lower) on the front roof and of course the far gable end. Bit of luck might be somewhat there over the course of this week. Oh yeah - then the plastering!

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Nothing on Monday. Tuesday - managed to get a couple of hours in. Spent a little while umming and ahhing about orientation of boards and then not quite remembering which way the ply went. Once I'd scratched my ar5e and remembered - starting fitting them. Decided to work from both ends and meet in the middle over the door, hopefully with an offcut from somewhere else.







and






Counting the boards - overbought as usual!  

Hopefully get the front finsihed this evening and the lower row on the roof this evening. Got a bit of a lead on a plasterer that a mate used on his extension, who charged very reasonably - so will try and get a quote.

Dibs


----------



## frugal

Dibs-h":akipjrhb said:


> It looks an absolute jigsaw - but virtually nothing wasted! One or 2 little pieces left - but it was getting late & I was somewhat shattered!



Marvellous job there mate. 

Out of interest. How are you attaching the Kingspan to the frame, and then attaching the plasterboard to the Kingspan. What stops it all falling off of the wall?


----------



## Dibs-h

frugal":1gzplcom said:


> Marvellous job there mate.
> 
> Out of interest. How are you attaching the Kingspan to the frame, and then attaching the plasterboard to the Kingspan. What stops it all falling off of the wall?








The red circles - a single 35mm plasterboard screw in the middle of every piece - sunk just below the surface, and then the odd little piece just wedged in. Not as many screws are required as you might think. The frame has a skin of 1/2" ply, so there is no issue of having to hit the studs everytime.

There are markings (pencil) on the floor showing where the vertical studs are and ones on the purlins showing the rafters (the roof also has a ply inner skin). I'm using 75mm plasterboard screws to screw thru into the studs and 50mm ones where just into the ply.

Fireline board - bloody heavy stuff!  

Dibs


----------



## frugal

Dibs-h":3rctf0qa said:


> The red circles - a single 35mm plasterboard screw in the middle of every piece - sunk just below the surface, and then the odd little piece just wedged in. Not as many screws are required as you might think. The frame has a skin of 1/2" ply, so there is no issue of having to hit the studs everytime.
> 
> There are markings (pencil) on the floor showing where the vertical studs are and ones on the purlins showing the rafters (the roof also has a ply inner skin). I'm using 75mm plasterboard screws to screw thru into the studs and 50mm ones where just into the ply.



That won't work quite so well for me when I end up doing the garage. I will be putting the insulation over concrete walls. Concrete blocks not known for their ease of screwing into. 

I guess I could put up 25mm battens onto the wall first, then attach the insulation over those, rather than my current plan which is to put up 50mm battens and then insulate between them with a layer of OSB on top.

<edit> I jst discovered that there are infact masonry screws for doing just this... All these years I have been using rawplugs... So I can in fact attach Kingspan to the walls with the OSB and screws... Woot! Now all I need to do is not need to replace the car and I might even have some money to spend on the workshop before 2020


----------



## Dibs-h

frugal":1s3ljbjl said:


> Dibs-h":1s3ljbjl said:
> 
> 
> 
> The red circles - a single 35mm plasterboard screw in the middle of every piece - sunk just below the surface, and then the odd little piece just wedged in. Not as many screws are required as you might think. The frame has a skin of 1/2" ply, so there is no issue of having to hit the studs everytime.
> 
> There are markings (pencil) on the floor showing where the vertical studs are and ones on the purlins showing the rafters (the roof also has a ply inner skin). I'm using 75mm plasterboard screws to screw thru into the studs and 50mm ones where just into the ply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That won't work quite so well for me when I end up doing the garage. I will be putting the insulation over concrete walls. Concrete blocks not known for their ease of screwing into.
> 
> I guess I could put up 25mm battens onto the wall first, then attach the insulation over those, rather than my current plan which is to put up 50mm battens and then insulate between them with a layer of OSB on top.
> 
> <edit> I jst discovered that there are infact masonry screws for doing just this... All these years I have been using rawplugs... So I can in fact attach Kingspan to the walls with the OSB and screws... Woot! Now all I need to do is not need to replace the car and I might even have some money to spend on the workshop before 2020
Click to expand...


You need to be careful in that the concrete garage walls aren't as thick as one would like. I suspect 50mm in most places and perhaps 75mm (at the most) at the edges. Wouldn't want to drill into them with the frequency that might be required in what you propose.

You probably would be better getting the plasterboards that already have the insulation attached - which IIRC, can be fixed with dot&dab plasterboard adhesive - which wouldn't have any issues bonding on the concrete walls. Yes you'd have plasterboard as opposed to OSB, but you could use tapered edge and minimise the plastering.

If, however the walls are proper 4" thick block - then you'd be ok.

HIH

Dibs


----------



## frugal

Dibs-h":1k8kbgow said:


> If, however the walls are proper 4" thick block - then you'd be ok.



They are the 4" thick about 18"x9" blocks.


----------



## Dibs-h

frugal":33ct1ja8 said:


> They are the 4" thick about 18"x9" blocks.



From Kingspan themselves,



> Is it possible to apply the Kingspan Kooltherm K17 Insulated Dry-lining Board onto an adhesive dab system to the inside face of the solid 9 inch brick wall?
> Solid brick walls can be penetrated by rain, depending on exposure and type and condition of the bricks and mortar. It is with this in mind that we would not recommend the use of an adhesive dab system but instead that Kingspan Kooltherm K18 Insulated Dry-lining Boards are applied to either a timber batten or metal furring system in order to create a cavity between the boards and the brickwork skin.



Metal system - wouldn't do it in a garage, so you are stuck with your original idea of 25mm or 50mm battens.


----------



## Cegidfa

Sorry to horn in Dibs.
Frugal, an alternative is to stick the insulation up with DOW Insta Stik low expanding foam. It works a treat; just press it into place and hold for a few minutes....job done. I used this method in my bathroom...no probs. You could then 'carefully' drill batten fixings and use masonry screws.. I used 7mm Rapier fixings for which you need a 6mm drill. One proviso, run the goop horizontally across the boards, otherwise there is a risk of convection currents. Also run a bead all round the periphery as an edge seal. I hope that is of use.

Going well Dibs, don't flag now, the end is in sight; of part one that is :lol: :lol: 
Today I put insulation on the 'prow' of the workshop - on the outside. I always was an awkward sod.

Regards....Cegidfa.


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":3m3d79qn said:


> Going well Dibs, don't flag now, the end is in sight; of part one that is :lol: :lol:
> 
> Regards....Cegidfa.



That must be how a con must feel, being released only to get nicked on another charge just outside the prison gates! :lol:


----------



## Dibs-h

Update:

Got a few more hours in the 'shop last night. Fitted the remaining pieces above the windows,






then the same for the left window, but left the small bit out above the door - wait till I've finshed the end gable, as it will no doubt leave an offcut big enough. Then rather than do the last row on the front roof - went for the end gable. Reasoning being that the boards were going upright, so better use of the time and do the roof the following day (being less tired)






More tonight, no doubt!

Dibs


----------



## softtop

Great job - really enjoying watching it come together. Make me feel guilty for not doing enough here though...!!


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: decided to fit the plasterboards in the end gable above the 3 boards I fitted the daty before.






Took a few goes - annoying thing was it's not like fitting the ply or insulation - i.e. couldn't use the leftover from the first angled piece (as to fit on the other side, you would have to flip it over & it's pink side out).

Here's it finished - poor quality picture, looks as if the camera phone decided to auto-focus on the dust in the air! #-o 






Hopefully have the last row on the front roof done this evening.

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

Are you going to plaster this??

Maybe not the right time to say it

but you could have gotten yourself the insulated plasterboard :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":3u8a49ij said:


> Are you going to plaster this??
> 
> Maybe not the right time to say it
> 
> but you could have gotten yourself the insulated plasterboard :lol: :lol: :lol:



It is going to be plastered.

I did price it up - my 1" Kingspan came in at £8.90 per sheet (almost 1/2 the going price) and the plasterboard was no more than £7 per sheet.

Just a matter of economics - the insulated dryline board is >£40 per sheet.

Don't worry I've banged my head countless times - but not that hard. :mrgreen: 

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

I just bought two pallets of insulated platerboard (40mm ) at £13.50 a sheet


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":172z06p4 said:


> I just bought two pallets of insulated platerboard (40mm ) at £13.50 a sheet



Sorry when I said the insulated drywall - I meant a like for like, plasterboard backed with Kingspan, aka Cooltherm K17\K18.

To the best of my knowledge insulated plasterboard comes in 3 types

- basic, i.e. expanded polystryrene, around £17 per board [white insulation]
- plus, i.e. extruded polystryrene, around £24 per board [orange insulation]
- super, i.e. phenolic, around £36 per board

Now the Kingspan stuff K17\K18 Cooltherm is around £35 per board.

Prices are including VAT.

I suspect the boards you've bought are the 9.5mm plasterboard with the expanded polystyrene backing - based on the price you've paid. Be interested to know otherwise tho.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dibs, I went back to the beginning of the thread and started reading. I didn't realize you've been working on this for over two years. That's a long, long slog. I congratulate you on your persistence. 

Have you got a plan for your electrical? So far, I have't run across that in any earlier posts, and I note from your current pictures that you have nothing in place as yet.

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":40gl4z9n said:


> Dibs, I went back to the beginning of the thread and started reading. I didn't realize you've been working on this for over two years. That's a long, long slog. I congratulate you on your persistence.
> 
> Have you got a plan for your electrical? So far, I have't run across that in any earlier posts, and I note from your current pictures that you have nothing in place as yet.
> 
> Kirk



Actual grunt work is at 18months so don't feel that depressed yet.

I plan to have 6 double 5 foot tubes (T8), 2 in each bay. The sockets will all be surface mounted. I can't really do the electric until the adjoiing garage is built as it will come in thru there. As the garage won't have kingpost trusses (I need the space for the car lift) the build will probably go alot quicker.

There is a high probability of having 3 phase fitted, so the electric will probably all happen together at the end.

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

*Update:* no piccies as it doesn't look massively different.

Finished the last row of plasterboards on the roof. Had a bit of a faff with removing some boards and ply from the front wall. Forgot to run some alarm cable. So once that was in - put the ply & plasterboards back on.

Picked up 5 bags of Multi-Finish & 2 rolls of scrim tape, yesterday. Found my plastering hawk and trowel too. Yes it's Plan B - I'm doing it. :shock: 

Just got to go over the plasterboards and ensure that they're all screwed down and the screws are adequately countersunk. Planning on doing the end gable wall first. Forgot to pick up some corner beads - get that tomorrow. Slightly annoying thing is that having lived in old (and still living in one) houses, I like rounded corners, not sharp 90 degree ones. So might just get some quadrant beading and use that instead.

Going to put timber up both sides of the door opening and the top - reasoning being that as me (and stuff) goes in and out, the greatest probability is the sides will get the occasional knock and timber will stand up better than plasterboard. Got to get some timber for the window sills too!

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

Dibs-h":33p4baxq said:


> *Update:*
> Going to put timber up both sides of the door opening and the top - reasoning being that as me (and stuff) goes in and out, the greatest probability is the sides will get the occasional knock and timber will stand up better than plasterboard. Got to get some timber for the window sills too!
> 
> Dibs



that will look much better, also put timber arround the windows


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":6wqe6ynd said:


> Dibs-h":6wqe6ynd said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Update:*
> Going to put timber up both sides of the door opening and the top - reasoning being that as me (and stuff) goes in and out, the greatest probability is the sides will get the occasional knock and timber will stand up better than plasterboard. Got to get some timber for the window sills too!
> 
> Dibs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that will look much better, also put timber arround the windows
Click to expand...


I hadn't thought about that one. I was thinking of leaving the timber around the doors - ever so slightly proud. Perhaps even round over the inner edge. Perhaps the same for the windows too.

Just plain softwood - painted in the end. For the sills - how much should it be sticking out? Is there a rule of thumb?

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## billybuntus

Is your plasterboard of the tapered variety? Just wondering why your choosing to skim the room?

Personally I'd just joint all the boards with easifill and sand back. It would leave you with an excellent finish and not be as cold to the touch as skim.

If you choose to joint get yourself a pole sander to knock back any edges, you could have it flawless with a few nights work.


----------



## Dibs-h

billybuntus":lq6q3op2 said:


> Is your plasterboard of the tapered variety? Just wondering why your choosing to skim the room?
> 
> Personally I'd just joint all the boards with easifill and sand back. It would leave you with an excellent finish and not be as cold to the touch as skim.
> 
> If you choose to joint get yourself a pole sander to knock back any edges, you could have it flawless with a few nights work.



Nah it's the straight edge variety. Why skim? For the practice - I've got a fair bit in the house to do at some point and that too is straight edged as well.

Cold - I'd be suprised. :lol: Considering how much insulation is in the building! :mrgreen: 

Dibs


----------



## Mcluma

It should be proud by about 3 to 4 mill, also depending how much plaster youi want to put on :wink: 

I like wooden trim better then plastered


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":1d5pbpc8 said:


> It should be proud by about 3 to 4 mill, also depending how much plaster youi want to put on :wink:
> 
> I like wooden trim better then plastered



Come to think about it - all the windows in the house (and there are a fair few of them) all have wooden trim around the windows. Might have a good look as I suspect some of them still have the original trim.

Hopefully get a couple of hours in there this evening.

Cheers

Dibs.


----------



## billybuntus

Dibs-h":xu5mb4zj said:


> Nah it's the straight edge variety. Why skim? For the practice - I've got a fair bit in the house to do at some point and that too is straight edged as well.



Get yourself a tube of deepheat for your sore shoulders and arms when your next out


----------



## Dibs-h

billybuntus":2lvqin5f said:


> Get yourself a tube of deepheat for your sore shoulders and arms when your next out



Could have done with some when I dug the trenches for the groundbeams and countless other times! :lol: Well past it now. :mrgreen: 

Free exercise and saves £40 or so on the gym fees! :lol: :lol:


----------



## Mcluma

Dibs-h":1lp24934 said:


> billybuntus":1lp24934 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get yourself a tube of deepheat for your sore shoulders and arms when your next out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could have done with some when I dug the trenches for the groundbeams and countless other times! :lol: Well past it now. :mrgreen:
> 
> Free exercise and saves £40 or so on the gym fees! :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...



i'm to old for that, and my kids don't want to do hard labour anymore, so i have a digger


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":2r0b2cnc said:


> kids



:idea: Now there's an idea!


----------



## Mcluma

Dibs-h":2zcs88oa said:


> Mcluma":2zcs88oa said:
> 
> 
> 
> kids
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :idea: Now there's an idea!
Click to expand...



you have them, or do first have to build and train them :lol: :lol:


----------



## Dibs-h

Mcluma":1m8o12hz said:


> Dibs-h":1m8o12hz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mcluma":1m8o12hz said:
> 
> 
> 
> kids
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :idea: Now there's an idea!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> you have them, or do first have to build and train them :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...


Have 2 - 9 & 4, I suspect the 4yr old will be more hindrance than help & liable to throw hissy fit if things don't go her way :roll: 

The other one - he already keeps asking when *his* workshop will be ready?


----------



## Dibs-h

Progress: Well in a manner.

Do you remember the pile of muck in front of the shed? Here's a quick reminder - 







Well now you don't see it.






And now you do but not so magically transported to the front and a lorry with a Hiab will be collecting it in about a week. About 14 cubic yards of the stuff!






I've got a huge pile of stones at the bottom of the garden, which will contribute to the drystone wall that will be built between us and the other semi (the crappy fence that was there is long gone.) Also had a bit of a general tidy up and strimmed what is supposed to be the rest of the garden but is more like a meadow.

I've yet to fit the final piece of ply flooring inside - just infront of the door so to speak. Slight problem - with 22mm hardwood ply, it appears that the stone cill is about 5mm too low. Now the original thought was to remove the aluminium threshold and put down a piece of say 6mm Aluminium flat bar and then put the threshold back. 6mmx 65mm x 1350mm isn't cheap especially when you don't want 6m of it.

So Plan B - remove the stone cill and fit another one. Considering the local stone merchants charged me £20 for it in the first place - I think that's a winner as I'm not bothered how the existing one comes out. Will be picking that up on Thursday and fitting it that evening, which should allow me to get the final piece of flooring in and then do the trim around the door\windows.

And then plaster. At least with the mountain of earth gone - getting stuff in & out of the shop is a damn sight easier and less dangerous.

Got some Heras fencing - collecting it next week as the drystone wall behind the garage has to come down, for the new garage and it's basement.

Dibs


----------



## vmvseoa

Any more progress on this great build yet Dibs???


----------



## Dibs-h

vmvseoa":32x59jt2 said:


> Any more progress on this great build yet Dibs???



Well the wagon came on Monday lunchtime and took all the spoils away. Collected the round top Heras fencing in the afternoon - got a cracking price on that - 5 panels, 4 feet and 8 couplers for £102

Had a plasterer come round the other evening and give me an estimate. Got another one coming round in a day or so to quote as well. Now that the mountain of earth has gone from the front, getting stuff in and out of the shop is a lot easier too!

Been busy with a few other things (non shed related) - but hoping to finish off the few outstanding things this weekend. Stuff like the wooden window\door trim and the last piece of flooring, along with the small pieces of plasterboard that needs to go at the bottom of the walls.

Will post up some pictures these weekend after I'm done.

Got another 2 weeks (max) to get this last lot done - so there will probably be a huge flurry of activity shortly. Then on with the garage\basement - spent all last Sat evening with the SE going over the structural\constructional details.

Cheers

Dibs


----------



## wobblycogs

Hope you don't mind me asking but I for one would be really interested in hearing about what your SE has to say about your basement works. My long term goal is to turn our smelly damp basement into a useful fairly dry space, probably not living space more like somewhere I can store garden tools and logs etc. Any hint / tips / info is always well received 

Cheers


----------



## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":3fdimb9b said:


> Hope you don't mind me asking but I for one would be really interested in hearing about what your SE has to say about your basement works. My long term goal is to turn our smelly damp basement into a useful fairly dry space, probably not living space more like somewhere I can store garden tools and logs etc. Any hint / tips / info is always well received
> 
> Cheers



If folk are interested - I can continue the thread with the garage\basement build or do a new thread? Or no thread? There will be a bit of a pause between the shop being plastered, to when the internal fitting out takes place. That will have to wait a little as I'm going to have to empty the garage out and it has to be stored somewhere.  

For the basement - I'll be excavating about 1m down from the current level between the existing garage & shop. (Not looking forward to that as it's about 24 cubic meters, a damn sight more than for the 'shop). The drystone wall will be taken down and replaced with the Heras fencing. 

SE is fully on board with the basement side of things.

Approx details are 1' reinforced raft\slab with a ground beam where it adjoins the end of the 'shop. Along the back wall there will be a retaining wall which will be finished with 1 skin of drystone wall, so the neighbours side looks like it currently does. Cast pillars going up the side - which should protrude into the basement once it's been finished, but by how much isn't yet finalised. These will tie in with a large amount of rebar in the garage floor - creating a localised reinforcement in the garage floor, going across the garage floor. This is to take a 2 post car lift in the garage - and the floor to effectively take the load of a car on the floor, lift in the floor and a car on the lift. The garage floor will be cast in-situ using the metal deck that you see used in commercial builds.

On the garden side there will also be a retaining wall, but not as high as our garden will be re-leveled. I also suspect the short side towards the drive will also have a retaining element. The initial thoughts are to fit a rubber type of membrane to the outside and cover it with a protection board. And\or internally render it with some of the Cementious slurry type of product and then couple of coats of Synthaprufe. The retaining walls - I'm expecting to be block - space with mesh and then block. The gap will be filled with concrete. Will be discussing whether waterproof concrete might be an option. 

For an existing space - it's a bit different. Is your space ventilated? You'd be surprised how much difference that can make.

Dibs

p.s. Here's a picture - sort of WIP, need to finalise a few things yet.


----------



## wobblycogs

Thanks a lot for that Dibs, I'd vote for a separate thread about this project if you're up for it. The car lift idea is great, I've been considering pricing one up for us as parking is at a premium unless we sacrifice even more back garden.

Our cellar is ventilated in so much as there is a open hole / window at the front and the coal chute come access point at the back both of which let air in. There's no forced air though which I know would make a big improvement. I've looked into a couple of tanking solutions for it but the main reason for not doing anything about it yet is because of the very limited headroom of about 1800mm - those Georgians of yester year must have been really short! I was thinking of digging it out a bit and pouring a slab but seeing you go for a 300mm slab makes me wonder if that is practical, my plan was for half that thickness.


----------



## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":hcafbzsc said:


> Thanks a lot for that Dibs, I'd vote for a separate thread about this project if you're up for it. The car lift idea is great, I've been considering pricing one up for us as parking is at a premium unless we sacrifice even more back garden.
> 
> Our cellar is ventilated in so much as there is a open hole / window at the front and the coal chute come access point at the back both of which let air in. There's no forced air though which I know would make a big improvement. I've looked into a couple of tanking solutions for it but the main reason for not doing anything about it yet is because of the very limited headroom of about 1800mm - those Georgians of yester year must have been really short! I was thinking of digging it out a bit and pouring a slab but seeing you go for a 300mm slab makes me wonder if that is practical, my plan was for half that thickness.



My lift is a single phase - electro-hydraulic and European as opposed to cheap Chaiwanese. List price somewhere around £3k nowadays.

The reason my slab will be around 300mm is because it is the main mechanism of transferring the weight of the building and it's contents into the ground. In your case - it would just be a screed and you would use a 100mm one for regular concrete or 50mm if using an Anhydrite one, but that would then need a final covering.

Another 300 dug out would be about what you'd have to dig out. Worth doing a test dig (say 12"x12") at the mid-point of each of the basement walls to establish how far the existing footings go.

Dibs

p.s. Happy to do the other build as a separate thread. This thread might pause or seriously slow down soon and then pick again when I'm fitting out.


----------



## wobblycogs

Ah ok, I suspected it might need to be thicker for the lifter etc. Will have to look into Anhydrite as a 50mm slab would be great. I've already test dug one corner and I reckon I can get another 200 on the headroom if I'm careful. My aim is for 1900 headroom as that would be just enough to get a decent sized bandsaw down there .

Cheers.


----------



## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":2gnbjr1m said:


> Ah ok, I suspected it might need to be thicker for the lifter etc. Will have to look into Anhydrite as a 50mm slab would be great. I've already test dug one corner and I reckon I can get another 200 on the headroom if I'm careful. My aim is for 1900 headroom as that would be just enough to get a decent sized bandsaw down there .
> 
> Cheers.



http://www.gyvlon.co.uk/index.html - that's one of the biggest players in the market. Needs to be pumped in.


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: finally seem to be getting back on with things.

Wed: spent an hr or so getting the last large piece of flooring in front of the door.

Thursday: There was a slight issue, in that if the flooring continued to the back of the Aluminium threshold the rubber strips on the bottom of the door had to be removed. Solutions were either to lift the threshold up by 5mm, packing it with Aluminum plate ( or steel), completely replace the stone cill with the new one 5mm higher. I initially fancied Plan B - but then didn't fancy the demolition & knowing my luck, it would go pear shaped.

Looked on Exitex's site and they had another profile - identical but 5mm taller. Result! Picked one up yesterday afternoon. Took the door off the hinges - man it weighs a ton! Cut 5mm off the bottom, put the door profile back on, cut and fitted the small piece of flooring and fitted the new threshold.

Not much to look at for a 3-4 hrs work!







Now I can fit the timber reveals round the door and windows - hopefully make some progress with those this evening - as I'm hoping to get the plastering done over the long weekend.

Kept the old threshold - as I can use that on the garage side door, which will be a standard width!

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Sod all yesterday but this afternoon (late) got back in the shop. Took ages finding the plasterer's hawk. Must have walked past in loads of time!  That and the expanding foam gun.

Was going to to the front wall, but decided to do the end gable. Checked all the screws were flush - a few needed driving home & fitted a small piece of plasterboard at the bottom of the wall and applied the scrim.

From start to finish in about 4 hours so don't feel too bad - hands a bit sore, not having done any plastering for ages. Hoping to do the back wall and the back roof tomorrow - hoping to get them done in a day, assuming I don't sleep in.  

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Have been working honest Guv!

Here's the gable wall,






Very happy with the result.

Then decided to do the roof, but starting at the top. The upper halves (above the purlin) looked as if they'd be the hardest and they were! Got the scaffolding boards sat on the trusses, on the upturned assembly table at one end and a stack of ply sheets stood upright at the other. Climb up the ladder, then squeeze thru the truss to either end and then back and plaster as well - right palaver!






That's the back upper half done and the 1st coat on the front half, having come down to mix up for the 2nd coat. Here's one of the upper halves (front and back) both having dried. Very happy with the result.






Then came to do the back wall - clearing all the stuff away from the back wall, noticed this on the back wall - some kind of spores\mould?






Plasterboard was bone dry and these weren't to be seen elsewhere. All I can put it down to is that the 4" PU insulation that was leaning against the wall, had been in and out of the shop a few times and had gotten a little wet once or twice, could be responsible for it. Been paying attention to the wall in that area since and the plaster has dried to the same colour as the rest of the wall.

Then got ready for the timber reveals round the windows and door. The window ones fitted fine - the door, well the header only left a 6mm space, the hinge side only a 12mm space and the other side 12mm. That pineappled me right off. Then realised I'd screwed some 12mm ply to the sides. Took that off, giving me 25mm which was cool, but the header needed lifting up.

So off with some plasterboard, cut back some ply with the Fein, took out the Rockwool and unscrewed the small uprights between the header and wall plate, removed the header and packed it with 2 pieces of 12mm ply giving me adequate space for a 25mm reveal above the door. Trim the uprights, and fit everything back!






Then whilst checking the lock side, realised the stud wasn't vertical. The bottom was out by 10mm towards the door - so off with more plasterboard and then cut the ply back to 1 stud away to allow access to the stud bottom, remove screw, thump with lump hammer, check with level \tape measure and fit screws, etc. Even bigger Palaver than plastering the upper halves of the roof! That left me with the ply, kingspan and plasterboard overhanging the studwork by around 1". That was so much fun (not) trimming it back. 

Messing about with the studwork around the door was half of Saturday and a few hours on Sunday. The rest of Sunday was plastering. Did the lower half of the back roof - did it in about 3 hours, which is down from about 4, so don't feel bad. Now just the lower half of the front roof and the front wall. Plan to do these on Tuesday evening (ceiling) and Wed (front wall). Then a little bit of trim work (skirting etc.) and then paint! Figure it will be easier to paint before the kit starts to move in.

One thing I did find whilst plastering - having something like a halogen floodlamp aimed along the surface, whilst flattening the 2nd coat and polishing so helped. But that might be having spent too much time in car bodyshops!  

Dibs


----------



## MickCheese

Still looking and still interested!

Mick


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,

What a palaver to get up to the plastering, still, it looks a grand job; I wish I could do that good a job :sad:
What would we do without the Fein? I think back on the cost and shudder.....but every time I use it, I'm glad I bought it. It has dug me out of an awkward situation many a time; both in wood and brick situations...Great piece of kit.
I think that building a workshop should be defined as the ultimate definition of irony, because no matter how much we plan, design and draw, something thwarts us. For you, this time it's reveals; I have that joy to come :smile:

Keep up the good work...Regards...Dick.


----------



## wobblycogs

I normally live by the rule buy good buy once but I wasn't sure if I would get enough use our of a Fein so I decided to buy the Bosch all in one version. Despite being a Bosch green which normally means rubbish it's put up with stacks of seriously heavy use. In terms of bang for buck it probably one of the best tools I own.


----------



## Dibs-h

Didn't do anything on Monday and even the tho the temptation was so strong to skive off yesterday evening, bit the bullet and went into the 'shop last night and got on with plastering the lower half of the front roof.

For some daft reason I mixed up the plaster and then scrimmed the 3 or so joints and checked that no screws were proud - something I usually do first. Got the 1st coat on reasonably quick,






I also seem to be getting good at estimating how much to mix. Then down to mix the next batch for the 2nd coat and on. Wait a bit and then flat and polish. Here's a piccy of it starting to go off,






Last night's plastering took no more than 3 hours from start to finish - well chuffed considering the 1st run of the roof took 4. Just 1 more lot tonight - the front wall.

Dibs


----------



## kirkpoore1

So, Dibs, how thick is each coat? You're using a process that I'm not familiar with (though I'm hardly a construction worker, so that's no surprise). When I did my shop, after installing the drywall I taped and mudded the joints, painted on a coat or two of sealer, and then painted. Yours sounds much more laborious, even though I found taping and mudding to be amazingly tedious. Next time I'm hiring that part out.

Good work...

Kirk


----------



## wobblycogs

Perhaps I can shed a little light on it Kirk, I'm no builder either but I've needed to do some plastering over the last couple of years and I taught myself via Google which meant I got a lot of information about how it's done in both the US and UK. 

It would seem that on your side of the pond dry lining is the technique of choice (great tutorial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR8hPGiF8yA) for a plaster finish. I believe a lot of houses in the US are timber frame which makes dry lining pretty simple since you can easily make sure the plaster board is perfectly level before filling the gaps with a board finish.

Traditionally on this side of the pond houses have had a two coat plaster finish (another good tutorial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO4orltyxfk) often over a substrate of browning or undercoat plaster. The undercoat plaster is applied directly to the brickwork which has to be wetted (old school) or sealed with PVA (modern) first. The undercoar is made fairly level and as it's drying the surface is cut in a diamond pattern to provide a bond for the finishing coats. Two coats of a fine finish plaster (often just a multi-finish now a days) are then applied first about 2mm thick then 1mm thick just as the first coat has gone firm. It's then "polished" with the trowel to give a smooth surface. This last step is the hardest for a novice to get right because it requires fine trowel control and it's hard to see imperfections while the plaster is still damp. 

Pretty much all the new build houses here are now dry lined I believe. I presume it has changed because houses are now mostly wooden stud work internally rather than brick as they used to be. The next lot of plastering I've got to do I'm going to have a crack at dry lining as applying a two coat finish is seriously hard work.


----------



## Dibs-h

kirkpoore1":1rp04zn4 said:


> So, Dibs, how thick is each coat? You're using a process that I'm not familiar with (though I'm hardly a construction worker, so that's no surprise). When I did my shop, after installing the drywall I taped and mudded the joints, painted on a coat or two of sealer, and then painted. Yours sounds much more laborious, even though I found taping and mudding to be amazingly tedious. Next time I'm hiring that part out.
> 
> Good work...
> 
> Kirk



Hi Kirk

It's pretty much as Wobbycogs described it. Boards in the UK are available as either tapered edge (which lends itself to tape & mud) or straight edge, which must be plastered. It is approx 2-3mm fine plaster and then polished.  Whilst taping and mud is making inroads in the UK - I'd say a 2 coat plaster finish, even on drywall is the predominant finish in the UK.

It isn't the easiest thing to do - but does get easier and quicker the more you do it. 

I managed to complete the front wall last night - but not till just after 23:00.  Didn't get plastering till just before 20:00. Had to fit little pieces of board at the bottom on a few sections. Also realised that where some of the boards butted up - they didn't have any screws there.

Getting home and finding out that my former car insurance provider had decided to bill my credit card for another policy, when they had clearly been told I wasn't renewing with them and the 30 mins on the phone, didn't help the timeline.

Just looking forward to an evening at the Turkish Baths @ Harrogate - http://www.harrogate.gov.uk/Pages/harrogate-6188.aspx for anyone who hasn't been.

Dibs


----------



## kirkpoore1

Dibs-h":33ye9wvw said:


> [Hi Kirk
> 
> It's pretty much as Wobbycogs described it. Boards in the UK are available as either tapered edge (which lends itself to tape & mud) or straight edge, which must be plastered. It is approx 2-3mm fine plaster and then polished. Whilst taping and mud is making inroads in the UK - I'd say a 2 coat plaster finish, even on drywall is the predominant finish in the UK.
> 
> It isn't the easiest thing to do - but does get easier and quicker the more you do it.
> 
> ...
> Dibs



It sounds a lot like what's used here for textured ceilings, then. The textured ceilings look good, but if damaged by a leak they're kind of a pain to fix (like has happened to my bedroom, alas). 

Tapered drywall is indeed the standard here. This is my shop after taping & mudding, but before sealing:






Enjoy your spa visit--I hope it works out the kinks your plastering put in.

Kirk


----------



## Dibs-h

Ah -the spa certainly did the trick! My right elbow aches from all the plastering tho. Went in this evening and very happy with the plaster finish of the front wall.

Measured up the perimeter of the floor and the perimeter of the windows and door frame for the architrave and the skirting. Hopefully getting some in the morning. Going for chamfered as opposed to some ornate stuff. Reasoning being - less surface for dust to gather on. Probably get primed MDF architrave to go round the door and windows and softwood for the skirting.

Looking to get it all fitted on Saturday and have a good old clearout as well. And fire up the airless sprayer and see how it paints.

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Update: Been busy with the trim work. Didn't get primed mdf in the end - having worken up a tad bit late might have been responsible!  

So went and got a whole load of 3" chamfered architrave to go round the windows and door and some 4" of the same for the skirting. I'd already got some 1"x7" boards for the sill and reveals. 

Was originally going to go for architrave all the way round the windows - sort of picture frame look, but then looked at the windows in the house - the sill stuck out a bit and went past the architrave a tad.

This was after I'd cut everything to length, including the sills! Cobblers. So slid the sill out - ran it on a jointer a few times to ensure the edge was flat and decided to plant the "nosing" on! Conveniently the local timber place had 2" wide bits of the timber at almost the correct length. 5 mins on the router table to round over the front edge and ends, some glue and some 3" screws, covered with plugs and you'd never know! Architrave - some no nails stuff and some brads sorted that out.

Spent the last 2 evenings - sanding everything totally smooth. Filled in any imperfections - usually the knots - with some 2 pack filler, and then flatting it again. All most all the 1" boards (window\door reveals and window sills) were screwed to the studs, using a countersunk thingy from trend - allowing plugs to cover the hole.

So back into the house - used the pillar drill in the loft and cut a 100 or so plugs, as I didn't want to be going back up again. Don't ask what the pillar drill is doing in the loft! Suffice to say it's on notice and will be going onto the shop soon.

Bit of pva and whacked them all in - and cut them almost flush. Will be popping back in this evening to get them flush, sand down any minor bits of bondo left behind and give them all a coat of Sikkens WB primer with the old Apollo HVLP.

Did nip into my local auto refinishing supplies place yesterday afternoon - for some masking paper, tape, mixing cups, filters, etc. so all set for spraying.

Anyhow here's a picture or 2 to prove it's all real and not just in my head. Either that or it's a group delusion!











Not the best pictures as the camera doesn't like the fact that it's brighter outside than inside. Only a camera phone so no real complaints.

Dibs

p.s. going to try and prime the skirting boards (tonight), i.e. before fitting them - have a cunning plan for that. More details (or not if it goes **** up) tomorrow!


----------



## Dibs-h

Did the final sand of the trim work - the plugs and checked that nothing needed any more bondo. Gave the skirting boards their final sand ready for primer. Bloody warm in the shop - well I suppose the insulation is effective! :mrgreen: 

Then applied knotting solution over all the knots.

All ready for spraying the primer on Sat - after I've had a huge clean up and vacuum!  

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Update


Skirting - did have a slight hassle on Sat - the chamfer I'v always assumed usually covers about 1/3 of the board width. Imagine my surprise when 2 lengths had it in the middle. No bloody receipt to hand & I couldn't be bothered to faff about with the roof rails for the car as I needed 2 x 10' lengths. So quick run to the timber yard and back. An estate certainly helps and it can just about fit 10' long timbers in the car.

Here's my cunning plan for the skirting -






Two pieces of timber (spare roof laths) clamped to the Kingposts tiebeams and then the skirting pinned to each one with a brad. 2 sheets of masking paper stapled to the back of it and voila - after having been sprayed of course.

Windows\door trim - now that's a different story. Here's the shots - 











Anyone see the cock up?

Bloody chamfered edge is to the wrong side! That and I'd used up all the primer (so getting some more in the morning). Went back in yesterday evening and thankfully the cheapo version of no-nails and the brads meant that using a filling knife - all the pieces came off good enough to re-use, but only some can be used again. Just need to nip down to the timber yard and get another 6m (for the door) in the morning as well. I suppose it could have been worse - could have top-coated it all as well! :mrgreen:

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Update:

Got some more paint - Sikkens Cettol BL Opaque (water based) is now sold as Rubbol Sattura BL - how's that for being obvious. Thankfully it is the same paint and goes on the same.

Got the architrave refitted (along with the new pieces) the correct way round, filled in the various imperfections and gave it another coat of primer - or the 1st coat in the case of the new timber. Re-coated the skirting boards with another coat of primer.






So - almost 4 calendar days later, I'm at almost exactly the same point I was at on Sunday! #-o I suppose in the grand scheme of things - it's a minor headache!

Just mulling over the fitting of the skirting boards - obviously will be coping the ends (so the light goes across the joint as opposed to in it - and wondering whether to use a countersunk drill bit and plugs or some no nails stuff and use the brads from the nail gun. Due to the wall construction - I would need brads that are around 65mm long if I want them to engage with the 12.5mm ply (15mm skirting, 12.5mm plasterboard, 25mm PU insulation & 12.5mm ply). No idea if they do brads that long.

Brads would obviously be easier than countersunk holes and plugs. Suppose see how it goes.

Well at least the weather is nice!

Dibs

edit - just found out Screwfix do 64mm finish brads - so might just use brads. :mrgreen: Gives me an excuse to use the new Bostich brad gun that's been gathering dust for ages!


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,

Glad to see that I am not the only one making cockups :wink:
Still the end of phase one is getting closer every day.

Does the water based Sattura give a very gloss finish,
or is it more towards satin? I ask, because I used Sattura Plus on the windows,
which is classed as satin, on the tin - but it is more gloss than satin to my eye.

Cheers...Dick.


----------



## bosshogg

Dibs...this is no workshop, I'm sure I saw a beach towel in that woven bag wiff the handles and a frisbee...come clean this is the prelude to a home bar at the bottom of the garden...init :lol:


----------



## Dibs-h

Cegidfa":103sgc8f said:


> Hi Dibs,
> 
> Glad to see that I am not the only one making cockups :wink:
> Still the end of phase one is getting closer every day.
> 
> Does the water based Sattura give a very gloss finish,
> or is it more towards satin? I ask, because I used Sattura Plus on the windows,
> which is classed as satin, on the tin - but it is more gloss than satin to my eye.
> 
> Cheers...Dick.



Hi Dick

The Satura is a satin finish. I've used it before on the windows and it is a satin finish.

Started on fitting the skirting yesterday evening. Looks like I'll have to use the countersink drill bit and screw the skirting on and then plug the holes. Went to Ikea today and bought some storage boxes - "stuff" lying about and getting in the way has been p!ssing me right off lately. Going to go slightly OCD and tape a sheet of A4 on the end of the boxes listing the contents - so I no longer have to go thru everything to find that one little thing I'm looking for! :roll: 

Going to be along day tomorrow - hoping to start painting the walls and roof.

Bosshogg - :mrgreen: :mrgreen: It will be nice to have somewhere to escape to - from the noise in the household! :wink:

Dibs


----------



## wobblycogs

> It will be nice to have somewhere to escape to - from the noise in the household!



Oh, you really are making me jealous now. Youngest has been grumpy all day: wah wah wah. It's enough to drive a man to use his power tools (to drown out the noise of course).

The shop is looking great, are you going to have a grand opening?


----------



## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":4kdbgvkt said:


> It will be nice to have somewhere to escape to - from the noise in the household!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you really are making me jealous now. Youngest has been grumpy all day: wah wah wah. It's enough to drive a man to use his power tools (to drown out the noise of course).
> 
> The shop is looking great, are you going to have a grand opening?
Click to expand...


Probably next year - when the new garage (and its basement is up) - due to the fact as soon as it's painted - it'll get rammed back up to the rafters with all the stuff that needs to come out of the house (bandsaw, t\s, spindle moulder and tons of other kit). Don't ask where all that is hiding at the mo! :mrgreen: 

Did all the skirting this evening - just one piece left to fit to the right of the door (looking from the inside) but that doesn't have scribed ends thankfully. Just got to fit the plugs in the countersunk holes and ready to paint. :mrgreen: 

Dibs


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,
I don't consider labeling boxes with their contents, OCD - just plain common sense....as one who regularly ferrets through boxes getting more annoyed.
Now, if you were to take a feather duster to the roof cobwebs.....that would be OCD :smile:

Keep on truckin'.......Dick.

PS. Thanks for the paint info.


----------



## Dibs-h

*Update:* Skirting's finished, or at least fitted. Spent yesterday tidying up and moving stuff from here to there and then got rid of a load of scraps that were lying about, Basically everything is in the middle of the workshop with a 3'-4' walkway all around. I'd have taken everything outside (most of it is insulation boards) and had a really good tidy up and stacked stuff differently but it was chucking it down.

Then went round the walls scraping off the odd splatter of plaster that I'd neglected to remove - and a quick rub down. Marked the low spots and then mixed up some Gyroc Easi-Fill. Went on very well - takes bloody ages to dry tho! :roll: With hindsight - I'd have applied that 1st and then tidied up - but as with all such great (mis)adventures, learning the hard way is mandatory.

Just need to sand the Easi-Fill, clean up the dust, mask up and then paint. Be nice to have a dry day - but looking out of the window at the moment (at work) and it's chucking it down!

Dibs


----------



## Dibs-h

Update:

Spent a few evenings during the week sanding the filler and applying a some more until happy with he finish. Friday evening masked up the purlins\trusses and around the windows\doors.

Saturday (today) - quick sweep up of the dust and tried out the airless sprayer. Wouldn't fire up! :evil: 

Pulled out the switch and when I pushed it back in - it fired up at which point I realised the switch was a bit temperamental. Got all medieval on it (with the power off) giving it a smack with a lump hammer - which soon sorted it out.

Thinned the Gliddens matt emulsion 1:1 with water and sprayed the walls\roof with a mist coat. Started at around 14:00.

Then thinned some more down (less thinned down) for the next batch - 1:3 water to paint and sprayed everything again. Getting up to the roof was enough headache, but so much easier not carting paint up there! By 17:00, the 3rd coat - hardly thinned - was on and going off. Had run out of paint by this time!

So off to Wickes and got 10L of their trade matt - sprayed this on neat. It's a pain putting on white paint - as it's not the easiest thing knowing what you've painted and what you haven't!  

Sprayed everything to death by around 20:00. Did the bit just above the skirting with a brush as the bloody masking tape wouldn't stick to the skirting for some reason. Have to say the airless sprayer is awesome - can coat a wall (2.4m x 7.5m) in about 10 mins!

Going to empty out the workshop completely on Sunday, sweep up - check the finish and touch up if need be and remove all the masking paper\tape. Then put everything back as neatly as possible as opposed to hap hazard all over the place.  

Here's a few teaser piccies! Will post up some more tomorrow when it's empty! 

















Dibs


----------



## Halo Jones

Hi Dibs,

That is looking really nice. After so much effort are you planning on having free standing units for all your workshop stuff or are you going to be hanging cupboards off the walls with french cleats or similar?


----------



## Henning

Sooo, when's the pic's of you putting the tools and machinery coming then? :-D

Great work on all the finishing touches! I am amazed at your patience. I have a sneaking suspicion I would've done the "that'll do, it's not a church" on more occasions than one...


----------



## scholar

Henning":20gp15gx said:


> "that'll do, it's not a church"




Lovely phrase which I should bear in mind myself more often. I shall remember it.

cheers

(thinking about Norway today, Henning)


----------



## Dibs-h

Hi Halo

Not had any thoughts about the cupboards or free standing units - will go with whatever suits or is convenient no doubt. I suspect the former as it will probably be quicker. What are your thoughts on which one?

At the moment it's just a case of getting the garage emptied out and it's contents into the workshop - then all the stuff that's hiding around the house! :wink: 

Hoping to leave at least the middle third for doing\making stuff, as it would be really frustrating to have got so far and still have nowhere to make stuff. :evil: 

Didn't bother touching any of the paintwork up - as just in the process of geting stuff in there, I bumped the walls in a few places!  Will leave it till the garage is built and the workshop emptied out again and will paint it again prior to kitting it out.

Dibs


----------



## Halo Jones

As the inside of my workshop is going to be clad with osb I fancy I will just pop a nail or screw in wherever I feel like it. With the quality of finish you have gone for I would be thinking twice about peppering the plaster with raw plugs to hold shelves up etc. Of course with all the time in world you should make a proper tool cabinet and your workbench should be made of at least 5 inch thick maple.....


----------



## Dibs-h

Halo Jones":1ckasgck said:


> As the inside of my workshop is going to be clad with osb I fancy I will just pop a nail or screw in wherever I feel like it. With the quality of finish you have gone for I would be thinking twice about peppering the plaster with raw plugs to hold shelves up etc. Of course with all the time in world you should make a proper tool cabinet and your workbench should be made of at least 5 inch thick maple.....



So can I - behind all the plasterboard, there's 1/2" plywood sheathing. :wink: 

I have an old school workbench in the garage, which is one of the few things coming out of the garage, that won't be going back to the garage. :mrgreen: 

Dibs


----------



## Halo Jones

I'll bet there is also a layer of lead behind the ply just incase everything goes nooclear :shock: 

I'll go and hide in my shabby chic wooden hut!


----------



## Dibs-h

This will probably be my last *update* on this thread - update, as in no more work is being carried out on the workshop. Will be starting a new thread on the Garage and it's basement separately.

Anyway here's a few snaps of the finished internals - 


























Dibs


----------



## billybuntus

If I lived next door I'd come and tidy it up for you. Very well done for getting this far. I spend most of my nights (can't remember last time I didn't) after work 'jobbing' so I can really appreciate how much motivation it takes to get as far as you have done but I can see your flagging ;-)

Go and get your teeth into the garage build and come back later when you've got the place setup how you like it. Don't use it as a dumping ground though :shock:


----------



## Cegidfa

Hi Dibs,

At last. You must have been thinking, 'will this ever end?' 
So when will the operating theatre be ready for patients?  
You are a part of Cameron's outsourcing of the NHS...aren't you :shock: 

Best regards.....Dick.


----------



## xy mosian

Well done Dibs =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 
I really admire your tenacity, think I would have stopped long ago.

xy


----------



## wobblycogs

Well done that man. It's clearly been a long hard slog but you've stuck it through to the end and I'm really impressed. Hope you are chuffed with the results, you should be.

I have to also thank you for showing me that I don't really want to build my own house


----------



## Dibs-h

Thanks chap for the compliments. Yes - at times it did feel as if it was never ending!

Feels so good to be able to walk into it as opposed to climb over stuff to get into it.

Billy - I plan to heed your words and go against my hoarding nature and try very hard for it not to become a dumping ground!

Woblby - chuffed to bits with the results. Especially the trusses and the purlins being visible. So glad I didn't go with collared pre-made trusses.

Got a load of castor wheels so plan to cut up some 1" ply tomorrow for bases for the p\t, t\s and spindle as opposed to having to drag them across the floor.  

Dibs


----------



## Orcamesh

Hi Dibs

This is a fantastic workshop and I have enjoyed reading your updates as you went along. You have done a great job and you must be dead chuffed. I got builders to build my garage (workshop) so I took the lazy way out, but I knew that if I did it myself that it would have taken years instead of months. I did what I could (electrics, painting, flooring, etc, but that is all). Anyway, don't let these be the last photos, it would be great to see it when you have it filled with all your kit!

cheers
Steve


----------



## Dibs-h

Orcamesh":2fgbnvq2 said:


> Hi Dibs
> 
> This is a fantastic workshop and I have enjoyed reading your updates as you went along. You have done a great job and you must be dead chuffed. I got builders to build my garage (workshop) so I took the lazy way out, but I knew that if I did it myself that it would have taken years instead of months. I did what I could (electrics, painting, flooring, etc, but that is all). Anyway, don't let these be the last photos, it would be great to see it when you have it filled with all your kit!
> 
> cheers
> Steve



Steve

Don't worry about that - there will be more updates\pictures when I kit\fit it out.

Dibs


----------



## MickCheese

Congratulations.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading about your exploits.

You've done a fantastic job and should be rightly proud.

Now, have a little rest.

Then, let us see it full of tools and in action.

Mick


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## bucephalus

Fantastic build Dibs - and great WIP reports. 

It has been such a mammoth journey, but what is really impressive as some of the others have mentioned is the fact that you have always finished every aspect to the highest standard - I have recently 'finished' mine... but I finish when I get to the 'I can't face doing this anymore' stage I'm afraid...

Congratulations again - and bring on the Garage!


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## Henning

Congrats on completion, Dibs! 

Impressive to say the least!

I'll be waiting for the pic's of everything in and looking like a workshop now


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## Dibs-h

Clamps - moved most of them in. Do you think a man can have too many clamps? :mrgreen: 







Just screwed some 2"x2" to the wall and hung the clamps on - remembering to tighten them slightly, so brushing past them doesn't result in a big pile on the floor! Just got to go find the remainder and do something for the heavier sash cramps.

Handsaws - the initial thought was to do something similar for them, but use screws\nails to hang them on. Yes - cheap and nasty, but need to get them off the floor. Then wasn't too happy about hanging the wooden handles on screws\nails - as the majority are Disstons.

Casting my mind back to my school days, remember a shaped piece to fit the inside of the handle - screwed to the wall\etc, with a bit that was proud and would twist round to stop it falling off. For the nbr of saws - that might take a while!

Instead going to order some rear earth magnets to put in a piece of timber screwed to the wall, rather like those bars\plates for knives. 

Cheers

Dibs


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## wobblycogs

Looking good, are those clamps home made? They look like the heads are made of wood.


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## Dibs-h

wobblycogs":35qp8c6k said:


> Looking good, are those clamps home made? They look like the heads are made of wood.



Heads are wooden - cam clamps. Made by Kamelia or something. Bought them all from a fellow forumite about 1.5 yrs ago.


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## pip1954

hi have you started the garage yet i enjoyed the workshop =D> 
pip


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## Setch

Dibs-h":2p0svt0o said:


> wobblycogs":2p0svt0o said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking good, are those clamps home made? They look like the heads are made of wood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heads are wooden - cam clamps. Made by Kamelia or something. Bought them all from a fellow forumite about 1.5 yrs ago.
Click to expand...


Klemmsia I believe. Nice selection!


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## Dibs-h

pip1954":3119zoif said:


> hi have you started the garage yet i enjoyed the workshop =D>
> pip



Hi Pip

Just been emptying the garage out over the last couple of weeks - I can actually walk into it now as opposed to climb in over all the stuff. :mrgreen: 

I've had a pallet stacked over 6' tall with parquet for the house, so busy moving that into the workshop, so I can also get the old school workbench out and into the workshop. Then build the internal stud wall in the middle, across the garage, so that the back can be demolished. Keeping the front half (as viewed from the drive) means the gate into the garden stays in place and I can use half the garage for storage and more importantly can leave the 2 post lift in there.

Hopefully start a new thread on the garage build in the next 2 weeks or so.

Dibs


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