# Table saw refurb- kity 618



## marcros (9 Mar 2014)

I have got my kity 618 back home and have been starting to plan the mods it will have. The first job was to get the saw working as it should. Everything works but the ride and fall was very stiff. 

I lubricated it with a little oil and it must have caked the dust into a solid mass because it wouldn't budge at all. I knew it was the wrong thing to use but in the absence of anything better I hoped to get away with it. 

Then, ping the pin holding a gear to the handle dropped in half. 

I have taken the top off and all access panels. The machine inside seems well built- I am impressed by the quality. I eventually got to the problem part and replaced the roll pin with one from a cheap set from wilco motor save. Reassembled, tested and it worked fine. Tested a bit more and it got a little stiff, and the replacement pin broke. I need to see what is making it stiff but I didn't apply much force (this time!). I suspect that something is nipped up a bit tight- there are a number of things that need to allow movement and it isn't always obvious what. 

I have found a quicker way to get to the problem part now. 

The rise and fall is a long lead screw with a gear on the end. This meshes at right angles to another gear which is attached to the handle. The pin has sheared leaving the centre in the handle shaft and the 2 ends in the gear. 

Are all roll pins created equal- I am reluctant to keep using the same if I have just bought rubbish ones. Can I do anything better- thread lock the components and then pin them? Have I done anything wrong here- it was a snug fit- I had to tap the pin in and punch/pull it out when broken.


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## trsleigh (10 Mar 2014)

I've had a 618 for donkey's years. Approx every 10 years the rise/fall becomes really stiff. I initially tried oiling etc but the only cure in my experience ( at least for the next ten years ) is to completlety remove the motor mounting trunnion / rise & fall assembly, then strip down all components inolved in the rise & fall. The stiffness seems to be at any alloy to steel surface so look at the long lead screw area and the sliding surfaces at the far end. Once reassembled you'll be good for the next decade.

N.B. This is from memory from about ten years ago. I've only had to do it twice so far so should be due for another strip down soon.


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## marcros (10 Mar 2014)

can you remember how to get that lead screw assembly out?

I took the whole motor assembly out, which is basically everything except a bracket and includes the rise and fall, but I couldn't see how to separate the lead screw. There was so much duct caked into the gears at the bottom, I assumed that would be the problem. However an alloy to steel surface makes sense- there is hardly anything else it can be.

I was going to put up with it, until it siezed. But I want to do it properly so that it isn't annoying every time i use it.


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## trsleigh (10 Mar 2014)

marcros":3r5m47r9 said:


> can you remember how to get that lead screw assembly out?
> 
> I took the whole motor assembly out, which is basically everything except a bracket and includes the rise and fall, but I couldn't see how to separate the lead screw. There was so much duct caked into the gears at the bottom, I assumed that would be the problem. However an alloy to steel surface makes sense- there is hardly anything else it can be.
> 
> I was going to put up with it, until it siezed. But I want to do it properly so that it isn't annoying every time i use it.



Sorry, too long ago. But I do remember on re-assembly that the gap on the sliding mechanism at the far end ( ie away from the leadscrew end ) is quite critical to get just right.


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## marcros (10 Mar 2014)

That makes sense- I thought it was a funny arrangement and would have been much better with bearings instead.

I am wondering whether replacing the roll pin with a steel dowel might be an option, and then playing with the adjustment in the various places. When disassembles, the alloy/steel section slid up and down, so I am wondering if something is nipped up a bit tight. The handle part cant be at fault, because it is only a shaft with a gear on. If this doesnt fix it, the pin needs replacing anyway (so is not time wasted), and it will only take a few minutes to take that shaft and wheel back out again.


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## rspsteve (10 Mar 2014)

where are the pics?

Dont want to fit a sliding table to it do you ? i have the 2 metre runer sliding table and half of the mitre gauge that fits to the table .

Steve


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## marcros (10 Mar 2014)

I could take a few if you want later on. It might help anybody in the future. I am impressed with the saw underneath- seems well made.

I dont know about the sliding table. is it for rip cutting or cross cutting? I had a sliding carriage on my old saw nd it was useful, but have since got a RAS for cross cutting. I dont have room at present to use it, but one of these days my workshop may get rebuilt a bit bigger!


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## rspsteve (10 Mar 2014)

Its a sliding carriage for ripping or cross cutting larger panels i splashed out on a complete assembly off a schappach presisa 3.0 and am currently trying to make it fit my kity ..so the original bits a surplus ,the rail is very very heavy aluminum if you google it you can see what i mean.

If its any good to anyone they can have all the parts i have for £50 collected 

Steve


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## marcros (10 Mar 2014)

I see what you mean on google- not quite what I was after. I really like the sliding tables on things like the wadkin PK and the hammer machines- just for cutting down wayney timber.


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## marcros (11 Mar 2014)

trsleigh":3m1jrs0u said:


> I've had a 618 for donkey's years. Approx every 10 years the rise/fall becomes really stiff. I initially tried oiling etc but the only cure in my experience ( at least for the next ten years ) is to completlety remove the motor mounting trunnion / rise & fall assembly, then strip down all components inolved in the rise & fall. The stiffness seems to be at any alloy to steel surface so look at the long lead screw area and the sliding surfaces at the far end. Once reassembled you'll be good for the next decade.
> 
> N.B. This is from memory from about ten years ago. I've only had to do it twice so far so should be due for another strip down soon.



you were spot on with your diagnosis. smooth as anything now, and on to the next stage of the mods. I stripped down the whole lead screw, which didnt look too filthy, but must have been. easy enough when i worked out how it came off.

I have looked at the mitre slots, with a view to having them opened up to a "standard" 3/4" x 3/8" but I don't have the faith that there is enough casting to do it (have it done). I will machine up a piece of aluminium for the gauge I have in due course.

The next part to look at it the beismeyer fence system, which I already have, and work out how to support the rails- i will sketch out a diagram tomorrow for assistance.


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## The Bear (11 Mar 2014)

If it helps, on the unisaw the angle iron which supports the rail is just bolted to the side of the cast iron top. Nothing fancy. There are then legs which screw under the right hand extension to provide support, though the saw has enough bulk that they are not really needed.
Mark


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## marcros (12 Mar 2014)

That would work if it wasn't for the height differences that I need to overcome. 

The fence needs a 50x 50mm box section to run against and clamp to. This therefore needs to be held from beneath or to bigger and allow 50mm clear above any fixings. I am not making it clear but I hope a sketch will do so. 

I have a couple of ideas but am not sure how strong they would be. I have no experience of metals in terms of strength and thickness.


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## The Bear (12 Mar 2014)

If you need a photo of how its supposed to be attached let me know and I'll take one, though it seems you might need to gash something together. The box section rail is supported by the angle underneith which is in turn bolted to the side of the cast top, when attached how it was designed to be. This is rock solid.

Mark


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## marcros (12 Mar 2014)

i think it will be a gash something together job.







The fixed parameters are that I need box section 50mm or 2" wide, and a clear section of it 2" high to accommodate the runner on the fence. It needs to be set a few mm below the table- I quickly measured 7mm last night, but ideally it will have a mm or two of adjustment available. 

The thoughts that I have had so far, is to add a piece of 10mm (or 15mm, or whatever it needs to be) material to the bottom of the lip of the cast top, but then I have the question of how to fix the angle to that (tap it maybe?), or to use 75mm x 50mm box section but that is starting to sound very heavy.


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## marcros (12 Mar 2014)

An alternative might be to use some angle iron underneath the top, and a second piece underneath the rail, almost like a T section, but offset. This has the advantage of being off the shelf, adjustable, and can carry the router table extension on top of the inner piece.


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## The Bear (12 Mar 2014)

Did you get the front and rear angle rails as well as the box rail with your fence?

From your diagram it looks like the front edge of the top is not flat, some piece sticking out at the bottom? If the sticky out bit is just a couple of lugs as per my kity bandsaw I'd be tempted to cut them off to make the front flat. If that sticky out bit runs along the whole length of the front I'd make an infill piece to sit on top of it and make the front flat. 
With the front flat you can then drill through and fix the angle rails as the manufacturer intended. Box rail is then fastened to the angle leaving the clearance you need to clamp down. 

Only other thing I would add is to have a look how you square the mitre slot to the blade. Does it involve adjusting the top rather than the blade as per most American saws. If so the rails are very heavy and hang from the top. I notice you said the top is aluminium you will need to be confident the top is strong enough to carry the whole rail assembly without distorting it and pulling it out of square

Hope that helps

Here's a photo of mine


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## marcros (12 Mar 2014)

The Bear":2kxzeo2c said:


> Did you get the front and rear angle rails as well as the box rail with your fence?



No, just the fence



The Bear":2kxzeo2c said:


> From your diagram it looks like the front edge of the top is not flat, some piece sticking out at the bottom? If the sticky out bit is just a couple of lugs as per my kity bandsaw I'd be tempted to cut them off to make the front flat. If that sticky out bit runs along the whole length of the front I'd make an infill piece to sit on top of it and make the front flat.



No, they run the whole length front and back. The kity rail slot under them.



The Bear":2kxzeo2c said:


> With the front flat you can then drill through and fix the angle rails as the manufacturer intended. Box rail is then fastened to the angle leaving the clearance you need to clamp down.



This would work I think. The lip on my saw has 3 or 4 lot holes in. Would you tap the filler piece and bolt from the underside? How thick would the filler piece need to be to tap from the front to hold the angle? Would aluminium do- I am not hugely confident of tapping steel!



The Bear":2kxzeo2c said:


> Only other thing I would add is to have a look how you square the mitre slot to the blade. Does it involve adjusting the top rather than the blade as per most American saws. If so the rails are very heavy and hang from the top. I notice you said the top is aluminium you will need to be confident the top is strong enough to carry the whole rail assembly without distorting it and pulling it out of square



the adjustment is on the top itself. It seems that any adjustability is on the bolt holes. It is fixed with 6 countersunk bolts onto the frame. And i havent fixed it down yet- i need to get some m5 nuts to fix a plate on and it is easier with the top off. The rails will hang from the top. It feels pretty robust, but I have to admit the weight of rails had concerned me a bit. Would aluminium rails and box be strong enough?



The Bear":2kxzeo2c said:


> Hope that helps



it does, thank you.

This saw has a cut depth of 95mm, which is part of the reason that I bought it. My father is after something, and I have put a wanted ad in the forum. Having just been mailed about a startrite tilt arbour, i am tempted to give him this one, with factory issue fence, sell my extra bits, and have a look at the startrite, albeit with less depth of cut.


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## The Bear (13 Mar 2014)

This is what I'd do, basically because this is how it's supposed to attach. I'd just bolt all the way through the infill, that's how mines done (minus the infill). The box is tapped and bolted on because you obviously can't get a nut on in the middle of it. No idea about the aluminium strength, as you know the fence is heavy steal and so are the biesmeyer rails which give it so much solidity. 

Mark


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## marcros (13 Mar 2014)

I need to check then that there is sufficient meat in the casting but I think that there should be.


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## crampy (18 Mar 2014)

Marcos, I have had exactly the same thing happen to my 618 only yesterday. The roll pin snapped so I took the top off and had a look. The problem is I'm not sure how to get access to the cog to repave the roll pin. what exactly did you do? 

Hope you can help, sorry if its a silly question I'm relatively new to woodworking and and very new to tool breakdown.


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## marcros (18 Mar 2014)

wow. i can actually help on this one!

There are 2 issues- the cause and the replacement of the roll pin.

First, to get to the roll pin, you need to remove the handwheel and the pin that it grips on to, and the orange wheel that goes into the part that allows you to adjust the angle of the blade. 



You next need to remove the part that the orange wheel connects with- the black toothy grin part on the cabinet. It is held with 8 m5 button head cap screws and nuts. These were tight on mine, and you need to get a socket on the nut to stop it spinning. If you need some replacements, i have a bag of socket cap screws and nuts- let me know. This allows just enough access to get the part out. My saw is shown without that part on. 







Inside the saw, there is a grub screw holding that handle shaft in place- you may need to remove the cabinet access panels on the saw, and play with different cutting angles to get the allen key onto it. You may have to also loosen the 2 nuts around that area that hold on the casting- I cant remember because I hadnt worked out this method until i had snapped a couple of pins. To solve the cause you need to remove these at some point, but easier if left in for now. wiggle the part that you are trying to remove about a bit and it should come out- more than likely the shaft and cog as 2 pieces. You could try to fit another pin and try again, but the problem will probably reccur. You only need to pip the part back in, nip up the grub screw and fit a roll pin for the black handle to test it.

The cause is probably it all being bunged up, and probably by where the leadscrew goes through an aluminum casting near the top. I cleaned every other part of mine before stripping fully and the problem remained. 


To get the lead screw out, you need to undo the 2 nuts from the bottom green support bracket


onto the casting that held the cog you have just removed


. Ratchet spanners are handy here, in fact anything other than an adjustable spanner. You need to remove the bolt at the far end that goes through the semi circular angle track (non handle end)


, and slacken off the 2 grub screws at the top of the far end of the saw motor


. Finally, there are a couple of levers that lock things on the front- remove these. Keep the male threaded one handy (orange)- when you put the motor back on, it is useful to hold the weight of it. If I have remembered everything, you can get the motor and carriage out, leaving the support bracket in place. Work out how it all moves- it is tight, awkward and heavy but not difficult. Find somewhere to prop it, inside the cabinet. The motor lead on mine was short! Remove the two bolts on the bottom of the casting holding the cog previously removed. You can not take a rag, wrap around the cog and unscrew the lead screw. It is probably tight, which is the problem. Clean everything down, spray with dry lubricant and reassemble. You need a set of spanners, sockets may do. An adjustable spanner will be too big DAMHIKT!

Reassembly is much the reverse. the adjustment side needs putting in and then wiggling just enough to get the far side in. again, tight, heavy awkward but not difficult. Be ready to screw in the orange lever to hold it. The far side- do not nip the grub screws up tight or it locks it solid! Test it up and down before putting everything back on. Put the motor back in, and the put the handle shaft and cog in- gives you much more room.

Having done it, I would say that it is a 2 hour job to fully sort, although it took me much longer 1st time round.

I havent done so yet, but you will need to make something to make sure that the mitre slots are parallel to the blade. I am expecting to have to remove mine again, so havent fixed it down (saw not being used at moment!)


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## marcros (18 Mar 2014)

mine is pretty accessible at present- if you need pictures or the manual, let me know.

The manual has an exploded parts diagram, but is about 2/10 in terms of usefulness!


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## crampy (18 Mar 2014)

marcros":gt668pjo said:


> mine is pretty accessible at present- if you need pictures or the manual, let me know.
> 
> The manual has an exploded parts diagram, but is about 2/10 in terms of usefulness!



Marcos your a hero, a couple of photos of some of the areas you highlight in your description would be great. Also what size roll pins are needed for the replacement? 

Thank you so much for this, I owe you one!!


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## marcros (18 Mar 2014)

I have just came back inside. I will nip out and take a few in a couple of minutes. 

I was about to post about roll pins. Whatever they are they are metric- the ones in the cheap kits are metric versions of imperial and are rather tight. Let me go and take some pics and some measurements of the roll pins


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## marcros (18 Mar 2014)

the roll pins are either 2.4mm or 3.2mm, I cant remember which I used, but I suspect it was the latter. I bought a Hilka kit from Wilco Motorsave for a fiver. Although I moaned, it actually did the job. I drove a small pin down the centre of each larger one when fitted, to reinforce it. They need to be either 3/4" or 1" long- there is a bit of space for longer, I think I used 1" because it was all that I had left after breakages. It was a week ago now! 

The handle one is tight to fit- length is only restricted by getting it in. Again, I used 1". I had to use a piece of metal bar to put on top, and hit the bar carefully- a hammer wouldnt fit into the space. You need to refit the toothed piece of the cabinet before you can fit the orange hand wheel, then the pin, then the black hand wheel.

Do get yourself a handful of m6 nuts and washers, for what they cost. it saves a lot of searching around. The nut on the end of the black handwheel is m8 I think.


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## crampy (20 Mar 2014)

Marcos I have just finished your perfect step by step guide, took me just over two hours and the saw runs like new! I owe you big time. Now you've got me intrigued at upgrading the rip fence!


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## marcros (20 Mar 2014)

I will do some pics but it will be a slowish one over the next couple of weeks. Need to order the steel tomorrow, a few bits and bobs of tooling. Might splash out on some paint too. 

I decided to do this before getting the saw (ie look for a base for a saw project), and got the fence from on here. To be fair the standard arrangement on the 618 looks reasonable. I only need to fix the support rails and box section to the top. 

The principle is the biesmeyer fence system which you can see online- the ready made version is very super cool tools or something like that. There is a step by step on YouTube by askwoodman (user). A cheaper version can be made from off the shelf steel and a toggle clamp.


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## marcros (5 Apr 2014)

The Bear":z2omnwev said:


> This is what I'd do, basically because this is how it's supposed to attach. I'd just bolt all the way through the infill, that's how mines done (minus the infill). The box is tapped and bolted on because you obviously can't get a nut on in the middle of it. No idea about the aluminium strength, as you know the fence is heavy steal and so are the biesmeyer rails which give it so much solidity.
> 
> Mark



I have made one step forward and half a step back so far. I did get as far as testing the fence out but found some bits like the measuring glass stick up above my table surface as is it now. 

I have tried more or less what you suggested, but my whole assembly is a bit high. The issue I have is that the lip prevents me putting the holes much lower than they are. 7mm would make it much better, can probably squeeze 4mm lower. I also don't like the infill much, although the issue I am guessing is that the hole is a fraction off straight. 

I think that I will cut the infill off. I don't want to fix the infill to the saw and the rails to the infill, and that way seems the easiest other than using multiple angles as I first thought of. 

What should I use to cut cast aluminium alloy- it is about 3/8" at a guess, and 20" long. I was thinking a hacksaw and then tidy up with a 60 grit disk on the die grinder. I have never done any cutting on the angle grinder but do have one and a cutting disk if necessary.


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## TomGW (18 Apr 2014)

I'm interested in fitting the Biesemeyer style fence on an Axi TS-250 and it seems that the Kity has a similar, stepped front edge to the table. My idea was to get a steel bar milled to the correct depth for an infill and have it welded to the back of the angle iron, thus reducing the potential for movement in the whole assembly. I also felt that this would mean that the weight of the Bies rails would be supported by the lip across the whole width of the table, rather than just a couple of bolts.
BTW, there was a Delta fence sold for $45 on eBay a few days ago. My finger was hovering over the "bid" button in the closing secs, but I was dithering because I wasn't sure that we can still get imperial sized tubing here and was afraid that 50mm wouldn't work.


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## richie 231069 (7 Feb 2015)

Hi rspsteve Richie here,
Do you still have the sliding carriage for the KITY 618 for sale ?
If you do can you let me know.
Richie.


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## Dokkodo (8 Jan 2017)

Hi all, first post, i have been drawn here by this thread, which is right on topic for me having just bought this saw, but hoping to get stuck into the rest of the forum now...

So, I just got this saw and it had the jammy rise/fall issue, which I fixed by taking it all apart and cleaning out the lead screw as mentioned, worked a treat. However, now I can't wind the blade down below the bed. I started with a 250mm blade, which wouldnt go anywhere near fully down, so I swapped to a 200 and the lowest I can go is about 10/15mm. Surely I should be able to get it all the way down - so where might I have reassembled incorrectly? 

I suspect that it may be the vertical cog, which seemed to be sitting higher than before disassembly, but i didnt take any pictures so I couldnt really tell. Also there is a loose nut and washer at the top of the lead screw which seemed to do its own thing, could that be a culprit? 

My other question was, the crank handle for the rise and fall has enough forward/back play in it that when it sits further back the cogs are disengaged, which can make winding it annoying and i think is probably wearing the gears down when they arent engaged as they grind on each other. Its all bolted up tight, and the handle is sitting tight up on the pin, the play seems to be in the rod/bearing.

Any advice much appreciated, and i think ill give it the much needed fence upgrade next time I have some spare cash so ill be back to see how you guys did that...


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## marcros (8 Jan 2017)

Welcome to the forum.

something isnt quite right there- i have a 260 or 270mm blade in i think, and it sits proud by 25mm. I cant remember if his is correct I dont use the saw that much. A 200mm blade should sit below the table, I would have thought. I would need to have a look through the exploded parts diagram, but there shouldnt be that much that can be assembled wrongly. If you need a copy of the manual, I have it at work, but am not in the office until Friday. 

I would guess that you have something broken in your crank handle. Probably a missing grub screw in the gear or a roll pin- there shouldnt be any real play. I am guessing, but if the cog was on the handle shaft firmly, the whole assembly couldnt move. Perhaps there is another item that stops it, but either way, I doubt that it is an expensive or unobtainable part. I have just had a look at mine, but you cant see much from the outside. My orange wheel has a couple of mm of play in it, but the black rise and fall has none. I remember from the disassembly, to get the cog out of the leadscrew end, it had to disengage the teeth and fit through a hole. there wasnt much clearance. the orange wheel has to engage in the teeth in the angle plate that is bolted to the cabinet. I wonder whether the cog is coming off your shaft or sliding along it, because i think it would be very difficult for the whole assembly to slip out of where it started- you would feel the same effect in the handle- ie it would feel disengaged.

have a look at this too http://lumberjocks.com/topics/59269

just a thought- i wonder whether the 2 issues are related- at the bottom of the adjustment, there is a bit more resistance, and so the handle turns but nothing happens? Is the handle turning at the lowest height- mine hits resistance and wont turn any more?


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## Dokkodo (8 Jan 2017)

As I suspected on the height. I guess I'll be opening her up again... it's not too mechanically complicated in there, I'm sure if I try and follow the logic of it I'll see what's up with the height limit on mine.

As for the handle and crank, the cog is firmly on the rod and the handle firmly bolted on, it's the rod itself which has about 5mm of play back out of its bearing housing thing, enough to disengage and then handle spins freely. See image for part.

It seems the roll pin thing going is a fairly common issue but I can't see where that would be in relation to my part? I'm thinking just to replace tha part entirely if possible. Any advice where to look for these sortsa things? 

Thanks for your help!


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## marcros (8 Jan 2017)

i cant see an image. I cant recall on mine exactly what is there, but there is definitely something stopping it coming forwards.

Dont plan on replacing anything if you can avoid it- the parts are scarce and £££. NMA agencies are the distributor and may still have some bits.


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## Dokkodo (9 Jan 2017)

Hi again, if you could confirm what size blade and clearance you have thatd be grand because I just cant see how it would be differently assembled to get below zero on anything bigger than 200. Looking at it now it is almost under with a 200 though, i think i must have been remembering with the bigger blade. It sort of looks like if you wanted a shallow cut youd have to use a smaller blade, and for a bigger cut bigger blades.

thanks again


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