# Haunched tenons on Workbench



## tibi (19 Sep 2021)

Hello, 

I am preparing to build my first workbench, which will be used for work with hand tools. It will be made of unsteamed European beech. I have already cut the wood to size with some addition for waste and it is ready to be planed to size. 

It will be laminated from boards with the final size of 120x40 mm. Legs will be laminated from 3 boards 120x40 mm. Stretchers will be laminated from 2 boards of the same size.

All mortices will be cut out by saw before lamination if they touch the edge of the board. If the mortice is in the middle, it will be chopped out. Most tenons will be 60x40 mm with 40 mm depth (on legs and stretchers). The tenon on the top of the leg that will go into the tabletop will be 40x40x40 mm. I will drawbore the mortices. 

I am sending model pictures. Pictures are without vises. 

Do you think that I should use haunched tenons or they will not be necessary at this size of tenons and the thickness of the boards?

Thank you.


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## Jameshow (19 Sep 2021)

The tenons into the bench top look a little short to me. I would make them 100mm others will have a better idea. 

Cheers James


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## Ttrees (19 Sep 2021)

I'd consider through tenons for the job if you can.
That would mean that the top component could be made a variety of ways, if doing so.
Sliding dovetails for example make a very rigid structure.

I presume you designed the stubby tenons as to not foul at the intersections of the lower strechers.
No need to have them the same height, but another get around for that is barrel nuts/furniture bolts/bed bolts.
I was going to make some up for my bench, as they are quite expensive.
I think I used M10 ones for this bench.

Not really necessary for a lot of things, but a nice application for the job if you will.
Bit of an odd bench, but it's what i had from old doors.

Made it too tall in the end, to suit a decent top thickness, so I lay this thin lab slab on top and it's perfect.
The design doesn't lend itself to being chopped down.

There is a pad on each leg as not to split if being dragged, seems to have held up well,
I can't remember if I used a dowel or anything for the job, don't think so though, about 10 years and seems to have held up well.

What I like about it is the height of the lower strechers is I can get a foot underneath, you can get leverage from this, that you might not have known you had!

Suppose the other shorter lower strechers lend themselves to a simple hinged caster system.

What I don't like is the flush upper strechers, although I make use of them...
Likely adds much rigidity when being moved.
The sharp edge of the underside often gets my knees in that area where some get fluid issues.
Someday I'm going to put a big bevel on this side too, just never got round to it.

Nothing stopping one from doing the same thing with the knock down fittings, should it not be as sturdy as it should.







Just giving you some other considerations which might be of help or not.
What are you building first, the base or the top?


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## Ttrees (19 Sep 2021)

I forgot to mention about mechanical fixing being much surer bet than a small glue area.
i.e dovetails, wedged tenons of various descriptions, and pegged tenons, pretty much
would all rely on using long enough stock for through components.

A bad floor and some weight added can have a nasty effect on once perfect joints.
Tom


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## tibi (19 Sep 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I'd consider through tenons for the job if you can.
> That would mean that the top component could be made a variety of ways, if doing so.
> Sliding dovetails for example make a very rigid structure.
> 
> ...


Hello Ttrees, 
Thank you for your advice. 
I have positioned the tenons in a way that they would not intersect with each other and I do not have to cut 45° miter inside the legs. I do not want to use bolts, because as wood dries I will need to tighten them all the time. I designed this bench with some advice taken from the Anarchist Workbench and there was written that wood shrinkage would make look through tenons with sliding dovetail on the top look bad after some time. 

as I have relatively little room in my new workshop (it is 3,75x3,75 m inside dimensions + I also stock wood for my projects there), I will build first the base and then the top. I have a 50 mm thick slab on two sawhorses that serves as my current workbench so I do not need the top first. I will hand-plane face and edge and then do two remaining sides on the thickness planer. To plane the top, I need to have my door open so that I have enough space on both sides of the thickness planer - as I do not want to take thickness planer outside and make a mess in the garden.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2021)

Through wedged and haunched tenons.
If you have an apron each side you wouldn't need the long rails and aprons are very useful.


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## Ttrees (19 Sep 2021)

I've never felt the need to check mine come to think of it.
They seem pretty tight looking to me, as in I've not noticed a gap anywhere,
and it wasn't exactly fine work I was doing at the time.

Understand if you want a more traditional approach.
in the guitar world that's something like dovetail vs bolt on guitar necks.

Unless you're stacking long lengths there, it might make sense to stack shorter stuff instead,
as a shelf is not exactly nicely accessible anyway when you have the bench top involved.
Although you could just store the longer stuff on top of some shorter timbers which would clear the raised strechers.

Tom


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## tibi (19 Sep 2021)

Ttrees said:


> I've never felt the need to check mine come to think of it.
> They seem pretty tight looking to me, as in I've not noticed a gap anywhere,
> and it wasn't exactly fine work I was doing at the time.
> 
> ...



Maybe that was a misunderstanding. I am not stacking boards under the bench, but in the workshop. Three of the four sides of my workshop are now stacked with timber. Once I complete the bench, one of those sides will be empty.


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## Cabinetman (19 Sep 2021)

You would only normally use a haunched tenon to fill in where you have put a groove in for a panel, the tenons on the rails should be almost as wide as the rail is, but then just pare a bit back to create a shoulder.
I would not have the front and end rails at the same height as was said earlier, this way you can have much longer tenons or even through tenons with tusks. 
Despite what the Anarchist says I wouldn’t have the tenons coming right through the benchtop, it really isn’t necessary and just causes problems, your top is going to be quite heavy enough to keep it still. Ian


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## tibi (19 Sep 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> You would only normally use a haunched tenon to fill in where you have put a groove in for a panel, the tenons on the rails should be almost as wide as the rail is, but then just pare a bit back to create a shoulder.
> I would not have the front and end rails at the same height as was said earlier, this way you can have much longer tenons or even through tenons with tusks.
> Despite what the Anarchist says I wouldn’t have the tenons coming right through the benchtop, it really isn’t necessary and just causes problems, your top is going to be quite heavy enough to keep it still. Ian



Thank you Ian. As I have already cut all the wood to almost finished length, I can now only make the distance between left and right leg shorter to get longer tenons. But that should not be a problem. Anarchist is against the through tenons on the benchtop. He is for blind tenons that are drawbored.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2021)

tibi said:


> Thank you Ian. As I have already cut all the wood to almost finished length, I can now only make the distance between left and right leg shorter to get longer tenons. But that should not be a problem. Anarchist is against the through tenons on the benchtop. He is for blind tenons that are drawbored.


You don't need draw boring at any point, or tenons through the top.


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## Jameshow (19 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> You don't need draw boring at any point, or tenons through the top.


But he's got no apron and 40mm tenons hardly cut it to prevent racking whilst planing. 

Cheers James


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2021)

No tenon through the top would prevent racking.


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2021)

My bench has tenons through the top without any issues. It's been quite happy that way for 15 years.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2021)

Yes, but that doesn't prove they are either necessary or a good idea.


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2021)

My bench doesn't wrack because of them, as it has no other means of stopping it.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2021)

There isn't much need to hold a fairly heavy top down, it just needs to be prevented from bouncing up. Racking is prevented one way or another by the frame, whether or not with an apron.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2021)

Adam W. said:


> My bench doesn't wrack because of them, as it has no other means of stopping it.


So it has no frame?


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2021)

That's a bit of a silly question.


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2021)

If you meant to mean, does it have braces to resist wracking?

Then the answer is no. The tenons through the top eliminate the need for them.
And no it's not braced against a wall either.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2021)

It's not a silly question at all - if the the only thing preventing racking is tenons through the top why have a frame? Just legs will be adequate.


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2021)

It has legs with stretchers at the bottom. The stretchers are dry fit tenoned into the legs.

A bench top with legs makes a frame, so yes it's a silly question..


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## tibi (20 Sep 2021)

From most of your replies, I have found out that my tenons are too short. I made them as long as I was allowed so that I could saw out 4 tenons before lamination from the middle board of the leg. Sawing out 4 tenons out of 16 in total is not much of a help, so I can move the legs closer to each other and make the tenons longer (as the boards are already sawn to approximate length). 

My original tenons did have only 1 top shoulder and no shoulders on their sides. Do tenons always need to have shoulders on their sides or they can also be as wide as a thickness of a board? 
How far from the front of the leg should the mortice be so that I do not break the edge when prying? 

Thank you.


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## Tezza1 (20 Sep 2021)

Jameshow said:


> The tenons into the bench top look a little short to me. I would make them 100mm others will have a better idea.
> 
> Cheers James


Hi James 

Impressed with your choice of material. The final look should be very impressive. My own hand made workbench was hand made using wedged through haunched mortice and tennons for the upper rails (front to back) the lower ones were through mortice and tennons again wedged. The lower joints constructed at different heights so as not to impact each other. I am a little unsure as to your reasoning in using stub tennons to locate the top as this would restrict expansion in the worktop. Surely better to allow the top to " move". Hope you enjoy your project.


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## Jacob (20 Sep 2021)

Time to launch my bench picture again for the 100th time! This is an example of the standard British bench as used by the trade, school, colleges everywhere, in the old days when woodwork was a major industry. For some reason it has gone right out of fashion and doesn't even feature in the various modern books on the subject.
But it is a simple design, resolves all the "bench" problems, easy and cheap to build, practical.
Because its been expunged from the record everybody building a bench nowadays thinks they've got to design their own, and they get ever more ingenious, over-built and complicated. Some designs involve two or three times as much material as needed and will be incredibly heavy, for no obvious purpose.
Back to basics - especially for first benches, which if you get right will probably see you out, you wont need another one!


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## Adam W. (20 Sep 2021)

tibi said:


> From most of your replies, I have found out that my tenons are too short. I made them as long as I was allowed so that I could saw out 4 tenons before lamination from the middle board of the leg. Sawing out 4 tenons out of 16 in total is not much of a help, so I can move the legs closer to each other and make the tenons longer (as the boards are already sawn to approximate length).
> 
> My original tenons did have only 1 top shoulder and no shoulders on their sides. Do tenons always need to have shoulders on their sides or they can also be as wide as a thickness of a board?
> How far from the front of the leg should the mortice be so that I do not break the edge when prying?
> ...



Here's mine.

4" thick top from 2" stock. Legs laminated to form full width tenon which goes straight through the top 2" from the edge. No glue, no pegs. The big tenon is visible middle left.

No issues with anything after a long time using it. I can lift off the top with a hoist if I want to dismantle the bench for any reason.


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## Jameshow (20 Sep 2021)

^^^^^ Two examples of best practice ^^^^^^^^


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## Adam W. (20 Sep 2021)

What, a mess on the floor and a mess on the bench?


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## Ttrees (20 Sep 2021)

Each to their own regarding bench design.
We all have our own reasons, might try and make a posh version of Jacob's tin of lead beans someday.
I'm sure someone like CS is on it already though, likely titled "The Bachelors bench"


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (20 Sep 2021)

My bench has a 1” high x 3” long tenon (base is Jarrah) into a 3 1/2” thick European Oak top. Although the tenons are pegged, the top is heavy and unlikely to move.






The tenons for the stretchers are draw-bored. The mortice is 3” deep and the tenon is 4” wide with (legs are 5” wide and 3” deep). No haunches here.






The bench is bloody heavy and has not moved a mm since I built it 9 years ago ..






Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Jacob (20 Sep 2021)

Ttrees said:


> Each to their own regarding bench design.


Only if you've thoroughly investigated the traditional offerings first. The first and foremost rule of good design is to copy.


> We all have our own reasons, might try and make a posh version of Jacob's tin of lead beans someday.
> I'm sure someone like CS is on it already though, likely titled "The Bachelors bench"


It's two bean cans with melted lead, quite posh enough as they are! About 3 kg each I seem to recall. Also have a nice posh trad 5kg cast iron weight and a 6kg piece of railway line. I call them my "gravity clamps" and use them a lot, sometimes with my beam clamp gizmo.


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## Cabinetman (20 Sep 2021)

tibi said:


> From most of your replies, I have found out that my tenons are too short. I made them as long as I was allowed so that I could saw out 4 tenons before lamination from the middle board of the leg. Sawing out 4 tenons out of 16 in total is not much of a help, so I can move the legs closer to each other and make the tenons longer (as the boards are already sawn to approximate length).
> 
> My original tenons did have only 1 top shoulder and no shoulders on their sides. Do tenons always need to have shoulders on their sides or they can also be as wide as a thickness of a board?
> How far from the front of the leg should the mortice be so that I do not break the edge when prying?
> ...


On your drawing your rails are made up of two pieces of wood glued together, the shorter outer one forms the shoulder on that side and with the massiveness of the whole structure I think you can safely not have a shoulder on the other side- sure it won’t distort! 
As you have a piece of 1”? Wood on the front, the mortise will be set back at least that amount so I don’t think you need have any worries about splitting the leg.
Not sure about your question re not having shoulders at all, without shoulders the wood/rail will be the same section as the m/hole and the only thing setting the length of the rail will be the depth of that hole. Hope this helps. Ian


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## GregW (21 Sep 2021)

Tension rises  I start ******** bricks  in a minute, instead gave 5 min relax break 

Comment says:
“First workers after lockdown distance learning courses”


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## thetyreman (27 Sep 2021)

Jacob said:


> Time to launch my bench picture again for the 100th time! This is an example of the standard British bench as used by the trade, school, colleges everywhere, in the old days when woodwork was a major industry. For some reason it has gone right out of fashion and doesn't even feature in the various modern books on the subject.
> But it is a simple design, resolves all the "bench" problems, easy and cheap to build, practical.
> Because its been expunged from the record everybody building a bench nowadays thinks they've got to design their own, and they get ever more ingenious, over-built and complicated. Some designs involve two or three times as much material as needed and will be incredibly heavy, for no obvious purpose.
> Back to basics - especially for first benches, which if you get right will probably see you out, you wont need another one!
> ...



very similar to the one I made, what book is that from jacob?


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## Jacob (27 Sep 2021)

thetyreman said:


> very similar to the one I made, what book is that from jacob?


"Joinery & Carpentry " ed. Richard Greenhalgh, New Era Publications. Excellent 6 volume set - one of the best old woodwork text books you can get, from before the age of gadgets, jigs, digital devices and other nonsense!


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