# Does a woodrat do dovetails as well as a Leigh jig



## Woody Alan (17 Feb 2006)

Hi All

I have been selling a few bits and bobs and collected enough money to treat myself to a woodrat or Leigh jig or an incra. I have looked at all of the products and read a lot of the info on the forum, and I have one fairly straightforward question. Does the woodrat do all that the Leigh jig can do, excepting the fact that you can buy extra templates for the Leigh (isoloc) and excepting that the Leigh can do batch work quicker, which I am not concerned about. If it can, and I think it can, then I think it's the way for me to go. Your help appreciated.

Cheers Alan


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## Knot Competent (17 Feb 2006)

Well if this doesn't start a war I'll be amazed!

John

Gill, can I borrow a tin helmet?


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## Woodythepecker (17 Feb 2006)

Hi Alan, Does the Woodrat do everything that the Leigh can do? You have started something now, and i am sure that you will receive many replys from both Woodrat and Leigh owners praising the particular jig that they own.

I own a Leigh but not the rat, so i am not that clued up on the latter, but i can tell you that the rat does do everything the Leigh can and LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS more.

But i still prefer my Leigh :^o i do honestly 

A bit slow, John got there before me :lol: 

Regards

Woody


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## SketchUp Guru (17 Feb 2006)

Alan, I could write for a long time (edited to add: it looks like I did.  ) regarding the benefits of the Rat for dovetails over the Leigh jigs. I'll try to keep it short.

First, consider why you want dovetails. Is it because of their appearance or for joint strength. If the latter, I urge you to consider other methods of joinery. With today's adhesives, I think you can come up with less fiddly and quicker ways to join two pieces of wood at the corners that will be just as strong once glued up.

If you are making dovetails for their appearance then consider the difference between carbide and HSS cutters. Personally I think carbide cutters make fat, ugly dovetails. That's my opinion of course but compare them to ones made with the WoodRat cutters and I think you'll see the ones made with the HSS cutters look much more pleasing.

BTW, you can certainly use carbide cutters with a WoodRat. You are much more limited in cutter choices with the Leigh or other dovetail jigs.

Also consider the width of stock each can take for dovetailing. Maybe dovetailing wide stuff won't be an issue but if you want to do a blanket chest or other wide case sort of thing, you might find you have to do some fancy footwork to make dovetails with a Leigh jig. The D4 is limited to 24" and the 1600 is limited to 16". the WoodRat can handle about 32 or so out of the box and could easily be set up to handle wider stock if you really wanted to.

Batch cutting is easy with the WoodRat. The tail boards can be stacked and the cuts made quickly. 

The Leigh jig will consume bench space when you are using it and needs a home for storage when you aren't. The Rat hanging on the wall is always put away and it is always ready for use.

This next part of the argument doesn't always work for people because they may already have covered these operations with other equipment. But, the WoodRat can do almost any operation you'd do on a router table. You can do mortises and tenons (safely climb cutting for a cleaner shoulder, too.) You can make dowels, too.

Both will do sliding dovetails but can the Leigh jig cut sliding dovetail sockets in the sides of a pedestal for a table?

I guess it depends on what you want out of the dovetailer. When I was deciding between Leigh and Rat, I got all the way to entering my credit card number on the Lee Valley site for the Leigh D4. I decided I should take one more look at the Rat and went that way. I'm happy I did. 

This was posted before but here is a recent example of dovetails I cut with my Rat and a HSS cutter. Soory about the size.








Also edited to add: The stock in the this photo is 3/4" thick. In carbide cutters, it looks like the skinniest one that would handle the thickness is 1/2" wide at the bottom. This one is only 3/8".


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## Adam (17 Feb 2006)

Woody Alan":2enur41z said:


> Does the woodrat do all that the Leigh jig can do,
> Cheers Alan



I think the answer is yes, but I don't think they are really comparable. I think of the Leigh as a high speed dovetail jointing system. I think of my woodrat as an upturned router table that can do some neat tricks. One of the joints it cuts is dovetails, but the limit is endless. Each time I'm doing a project and get really stumped about how to do something, I have time and time again turned to the 'rat and found a way to solve the problem. 

Adam


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## Alf (17 Feb 2006)

Woody Alan":34h6u4ne said:


> ...I have one fairly straightforward question. Does the woodrat do all that the Leigh jig can do...


My answer is: Why would you want to limit yourself to just what the Leigh can do? :wink:

Cheers, Alf

P.S. eg: here, here, here, here, h- oh, you get the idea. :roll:


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## aldel (17 Feb 2006)

Hello Alan,

If you read back over time some of the posts on this forum you will find a good deal of information about the Leigh and WoodRat. (do a search) You will also find for some inexplicable reason some animosity between the Leigh and 'Rat owners camps. I own and use both and can assure you that they are both excellent; each with their own virtues and minor drawbacks. Neither are cheap by any means and do require careful consideration before purchase. I owned my WoodRat first and then had a request to make a number of boxes to hold industrial laser heads for a pr machinery prestigious show. The order was for unusual and 'showy' corner joints. There was more than enough money in the job to enable me to purchase a Leigh Jig + 'Bears Ears' and Finger joint templates. The customer was very pleased with the finished boxes. 
Again, recently there were a number of posts from certain "purists" condemning isoloc joints. I believe that when used in the correct situation they are strong, valid and attractive.

With the basic Leigh D4 you can cut dovetails, sliding dovetails and some finger joints. There is a specialised finger joint plus a mortise, and isoloc templates available to enhance your choice but at considerable cost. Add to this the cost of special long shaft router bits (which by the way are excellent for the WoodRat) and it all soon mounts up.
The Leigh is the better choice for industrial use and for batch cutting of dovetails.

The 'Rat is again expensive but oh so very versatile. It is the only jig with which you can cut near "hand cut" looking dovetails. Any dovetail cutter can be used. A huge variety of joints can be made with it and you can adapt and modify it easily. I do not consider it a replacement for dedicated machinery and often a router table is to be prefered. I turn to mine for all sorts of jobs. I am _not_ suggesting that the 'Rat is not suited to industrial use but is probably the better choice for the home workshop.
Both are supported by excellent hand books and videos etc but you are likely to find much more web help for the 'Rat than the Leigh.

The choice to be made is dependant on your needs and depth of pocket.

Do not be persuaded by blind criticism of one over the other as each is purpose designed and not strictly directly comparible.

OK it was my turn to light the blue touch paper and I am now going back to watch the show!

Aldel


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## MikeW (17 Feb 2006)

I think Adam pretty much nailed it.

I personally found that for doing dovetails the Leigh was easier to set up and produce DTs the first time I tried. I think that is because of my familiarity with that type of system.

As I was producing DT drawers with abandon at the time, I returned the Leigh and got the even easier, cookie-cutter PC Omnijig. Large, incredibly heavy and well made.

A year or two ago I bought a 'Rat. The Omnijig was sold. I'll never go back to a dedicated DT jig unless I need to do commercial work again. 

Take care, Mike


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## Woody Alan (17 Feb 2006)

Woody,Dave,Adam,Alf,Aldel,Mike

Thankyou one and all for your replies, (and the amount of detail) I was quite innocent in my question honest, it's just that there was another Leigh jig, 3rd in a week coming up on ebay locally to me and I was thinking of bidding on it. Now you have collectively made my mind up Woodrat it is, all I have to do now is decide where to buy it from. All the ones I have seen on Ebay have gone for silly enough money,so that should there be a problem any saving is wiped out. Aldel I think it was on your site I read what you advised to purchase as accessories? was I right?

Cheers Alan


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## tim (17 Feb 2006)

Woody

Have you got someone near you that can let you have a go on either? I have a Rat on long term loan and I own the new Leigh D4R jig. I bought the Leigh because I need to do production level of DTs but (and I know that I'll be crucified for this) I just don't find the rat that easy to use. 

I honestly think it depends on how much time you are prepared or want to spend getting to know and use each machine vs use it as a means to an end. There is a huge amount to be said in the Rat's favour but it also requires a fair amount of time, trial and error, jig making etc etc to get it to do the more useful stuff. This is fine when you are not up against the clock (or charging for it) and I can see if it was being used purely for pleasure then the Rat is a good solution to a lot of woodworking problems.


Cheers

Tim


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## aldel (17 Feb 2006)

Accessories are not obligatory for the 'Rat but I would advise the purchase of plunge bars suitable for your model of router. They make life easier.


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## Woodythepecker (17 Feb 2006)

Tim, what is the difference between the Leigh D4 and the updated D4R?

While on the subject have you or any other Leigh owner tried the RVA1 vacuum attachment? If so does it really work, i suposse i am saying is it worth £32?

Regards

Woody


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## Anonymous (17 Feb 2006)

Alan

No.

The Leigh is better for dovetails.

The Rat is more versatile and will cut nice dovetails but no where near as easily or quickly as the Leigh. However, the rat does many other things

If I were starting out again, I would learn to cut through dovetails by hand (easier than you may think) and buy a super cheapo blind dovetail template - I think you cna get them for around £40
Both the rat and leigh are over priced for what you get in my opinion (particularly the rat with its 'joke' price tag) 

By the way, I own a Leigh but not a rat but have seen DTs cut on a rat


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## Adam (17 Feb 2006)

Tony":1j8t8qi3 said:


> Both the rat and leigh are over priced for what you get in my opinion (particularly the rat with its 'joke' price tag)



Interestingly, I mostly do cut my dovetails by hand, but still find that the 'rat more than justifies its place in my workshop. Its all the other stuff it does that makes it so valuble to me. Tims right though, its not neccasarily intuitive or suited to a fast production evironment, and based on peoples responses in postings I wonder if some people "get-it" more than others. In part, as mentioned, the more time spent playing, fiddling trying completely new methods on it helps. I'm always surprised that Leigh owners consider the 'rat expensive. All the gadgets for the leigh soon add up. And, as you say, if at the end of it you learn to hand cut dovetails.... its becomes redundent. Ahh well. couldn't resist..... :twisted: 
Adam


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## SketchUp Guru (17 Feb 2006)

Tony, As I'm sure you're already aware, I wouldn't agree with your blanket statement that the Leigh is better for dovetails. You're welcome to your opinion and I would defend your right to it.

As I started out in my first post, if you just want to join two pieces of wood at right angles to each other there are easier, cheaper ways that would be just as strong. Especially with the adhesives that are available now. Box joints, locked miters and splined miters are just three methods.

Again as I said before, in my opinion, the dovetail joints cut by carbide cutters (a requirement for the Leigh, I believe and certainly other DT jigs.) just look fat and not elegant to me.

I guess, though, many people are impressed with those fat little dovetails on kitchen cabinet drawers. It sure seems to be a big issue in the minds of the sales people at the kitchen cabinet stores around here.

It comes down to what a person wants. Dovetails for utility or dovetails for appearance.

Ah, well. to each his (or her) own. That's the sort of stuff that makes it possible for Leigh and WoodRat to stay in business.


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## Anonymous (17 Feb 2006)

Adam":1gakdlfd said:


> . All the gadgets for the leigh soon add up. And, as you say, if at the end of it you learn to hand cut dovetails.... its becomes redundent. Ahh well. couldn't resist..... :twisted:
> Adam



:lol: 
I think they are over priced too :wink:


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## Alf (17 Feb 2006)

Tony":126qs0at said:


> Both the rat and leigh are over priced for what you get in my opinion (particularly the rat with its 'joke' price tag)


I'm inclined to think that says rather more about you than the 'Rat, Tony.

Cheers, Alf


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## tim (17 Feb 2006)

Woodythepecker":b0oj9zty said:


> ]Tim, what is the difference between the Leigh D4 and the updated D4R?
> 
> While on the subject have you or any other Leigh owner tried the RVA1 vacuum attachment? If so does it really work, i suposse i am saying is it worth £32?



I don't know the answer to the first question but it'll be on the Leigh site I'm sure. 

Yes I do have the attachment, yes it works and I got it thrown in at the Axminster show so I thought it a fair price! :wink: 

Cheers

Tim


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## Newbie_Neil (18 Feb 2006)

Hi Woody



Woodythepecker":3m40ti5m said:


> While on the subject have you or any other Leigh owner tried the RVA1 vacuum attachment? If so does it really work, i suposse i am saying is it worth £32?



Does it work - Yes.

Is it worth 32gbp - No.

Cheers
Neil


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## Woodythepecker (18 Feb 2006)

Neil and Tim thanks a lot. I think that i will order one.

Cheers

Woody


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## Newbie_Neil (19 Feb 2006)

Hi Alf



Alf":b7kx8j7l said:


> Tony":b7kx8j7l said:
> 
> 
> > Both the rat and leigh are over priced for what you get in my opinion (particularly the rat with its 'joke' price tag)
> ...



Tony has to save money somewhere, how else would he amass all those planes?

Cheers
Neil


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## Anonymous (20 Feb 2006)

Woody Alan 

Not sure if you have already noticed but if you look at the links on the Woodrat site you will find one of their dealers sells it for about £70 cheaper than all the rest they charge £15 P & P but it's still cheaper. Pay for your plunge bars at least. I recently bought one I went to Leeds in person and they were really helpful.


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## engineer one (21 Feb 2006)

interesting, having chatted again with the rat guys at ally pally, i think the problem for the rat is it was originally sold as a dovetail machine, whilst in fact it is so much more.

i wonder whether many of those who dislike the rat do not "get it"
with the leigh, you can see what you are getting, but for those kind of bucks, you have a very inflexible machine. a number of people have said to me in the past that they wished they had bought a rat first before a router table since it was more flexible, and also of course, you are looking at a protected router bit, not one sticking up through a table that might catch you out.

i think the rat is pretty easy to set up for a dovetail, but it does require a few seconds out of the box to get you used to it.

but lets be honest guys we spend a bunch of time on our computers now, but if you don't use a programme for a few weeks or months, you forget all
the things you have learnt. seems to me so far you do the same with a rat.

for my two pence, i think the leigh has advantages, but the rat offers more flexibility.

paul :wink:


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## AndyBoyd (21 Feb 2006)

Of course it does and loads more (as you can tell I'm a happy ratter)


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