# anyone run their own design and manuf furniture co.



## navypaul (18 Feb 2016)

I am thinking about starting a small furniture co. designing and making my own range as an online business i have the outline of a business plan and many original designs (used to design for a company up north years ago, went to college and all that) the thing i have made seen to be well received so i am trying to give it ago

has anyone gone down the same route, im looking for some advice and potential pitfalls 

regards

paul


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## custard (18 Feb 2016)

I'm a full time, independent furniture maker. Not much I can say though without knowing a bit more about your plans, feel free to PM me if you'd prefer.

Good luck!


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## lurker (18 Feb 2016)

There have beeen several similar threads in the same vein in the past month have a little search

the general message i got was that it was possible to make a small fortune in this business \/ 



But only if you started with a large fortune :roll:


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## davin (18 Feb 2016)

Sounds interesting. Thats my ultimate goal as well.
I know another recent thread was full of doom and gloom about making a good living from furniture making, but I believe it is possible.
Either as you say selling good design online, or being lucky enough to have a workshop/gallery/shop where you can work and still have the possibilty of customers walking through the door. Rather than working by yourself in a cold damp agricultural rural slum like most furniture makers seem to..


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## flanajb (18 Feb 2016)

Not wanting to put a dampener on proceedings, but I have gotten the impression that to make a fortune out of anything furniture related is nigh on impossible unless you have a large workforce and serious automation. A quick search on Made.com makes for depressing viewing, unless you have an army of employees paid < £10/hr and cnc machines churning out components OR outsource your manufacturing to Eastern Europe.

There are some cracking pieces on there for £300 which would take most skilled people 3-4 days to manufacture with general workshop machinery.


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## navypaul (18 Feb 2016)

flanajb":33veadhs said:


> Not wanting to put a dampener on proceedings, but I have gotten the impression that to make a fortune out of anything furniture related is nigh on impossible unless you have a large workforce and serious automation. A quick search on Made.com makes for depressing viewing, unless you have an army of employees paid < £10/hr and cnc machines churning out components OR outsource your manufacturing to Eastern Europe.
> 
> There are some cracking pieces on there for £300 which would take most skilled people 3-4 days to manufacture with general workshop machinery.




out sourcing is a popular way to do it but then your looking at high volume, i understand what your saying there are many retailers selling dung furniture poorly made like most of the high street shops and that rubbish from OFW but i dont need to sell much to at least equal my income now. i know there is a market for good design higher end furniture as i used to buy it before i started to make it, so it is there. im not aiming my products as the oak furniture world £200 a table and 4 chair market but the people who want status type furniture well thought out and well made.


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## navypaul (18 Feb 2016)

davin":3gylxyeu said:


> Sounds interesting. Thats my ultimate goal as well.
> I know another recent thread was full of doom and gloom about making a good living from furniture making, but I believe it is possible.
> Either as you say selling good design online, or being lucky enough to have a workshop/gallery/shop where you can work and still have the possibilty of customers walking through the door. Rather than working by yourself in a cold damp agricultural rural slum like most furniture makers seem to..



thats the plan i have a range already designed, well most of it and intend to use social media to advertise i have very few overheads at the moment and a income from my current job so im in a good place unless things pick up then it gets complicated but that's in the future


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## Adam9453 (18 Feb 2016)

It's interesting every time this comes up, I think many have the aspiration but not necessary all the skills (business and manufacturing and design).
I think most of the guys on here that sound like they're preaching doom are actually just trying to give people some sage advice and more importantly a reality check about what they're getting into.
If you can start a business part time then it's low risk so no real worry if it doesn't work out but some recently have said they were thinking of giving up well paid jobs to start out in furniture, obviously this is very risky so people try to warn them of the difficulties they will face.
It's a lovely dream though and life's too short not to pursue your dreams.... Good luck


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## Beau (18 Feb 2016)

I don't think you want to be selling just furniture as mentioned there is lots of good functional furniture out there going for peanuts. You need to make art that works as furniture then money seems immaterial to those that want it. This is coming from someone who was a good maker but bad designer and never made any money after 15+ years of furniture making.


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## navypaul (18 Feb 2016)

Beau":1idu0uw3 said:


> I don't think you want to be selling just furniture as mentioned there is lots of good functional furniture out there going for peanuts. You need to make art that works as furniture then money seems immaterial to those that want it. This is coming from someone who was a good maker but bad designer and never made any money after 15+ years of furniture making.



yeah thats the thing utility furniture is everywhere and very cheap no way could i or anyone compete with that but you said it exactly it has to be almost art, utility art if you like.


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## sawdust1 (19 Feb 2016)

Hi paul, i've been making bespoke furniture for a living for 26 years now, the advice i would give myself if starting again would be to make a range of items and just stick to them, produce a small catalogue, sell on line.
Then you have cutting lists, jigs for those items and know what timber is used.
Problem their is getting the items from A to B without damage.
Like Beau never made any money out of it, just keeping my head above water, so best of luck.
Their are people on here who will dish out some good advice !


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## AJB Temple (19 Feb 2016)

I have commented on business aspects before so will not repeat here. No 1 issue is finding customers. No 2 is them being happy with your lead times as you will not be holding stock I expect. No 3 is delivery and returns risk. If you have the drive and good designs and excellent on-line marketing skills you will make it. The internet is a big place and getting your stuff seen by the right people is a challenge. But you will never know unless you try. Good luck with your venture.


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## johnny (19 Feb 2016)

running a small business from home is quite feasible so long as it is not intended to be your sole source of income.

I have run several small businesses from, just myself and my partner at home to a business employing 27 staff full time with workshops, offices etc . 
The one thing that I would say is that if a business is to be the sole source of income ,you will inevitably run into cash flow crisis from time to time when you'll find that the banks won't want to help you and creditors are pressing you and some of your clients haven't paid you for work and something expensive breaks down and a supplier goes bust , and your deadline for supply is looming etc etc .
Try not to invest too much in expensive equipment straight off and keep a reasonable contingency fund for emergences. Cashflow is any businesses life blood

As you are retaining your full time employment as your main source of funding then I would say go for it  I'd recommend you do a simple projection of your annual expenses overheads and maybe consult an accountant before you start. Working from home you will be able to claim as much as a 1/4 of your household expenses for the business and a percentage of your car etc


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## navypaul (19 Feb 2016)

thanks for the advice sawdust1, that was my plan from the start produce a range and sell it, in a nutshell. Thankfully my overheads are nearly zero and i am counting on low sales believe it or not. 

the net is a huge place and is a minefield so getting it out there is a massive challenge, social media is my plan eg YouTube videos (haha, video, showing my age) showing construction of the item and FB to somehow market it its all there to be used just need to find the people who know how. 

i was umming and ahhhing for ages and a friend of me and my wife said when you doing it then? i said doing what? she said setting the business up i ummed a bit more then she said you will never forgive yourself if you dont at least try. so i have little choice but to give it my best shot and learn quickly how. im in the forces and we are always thrown in the deep end so it should be second nature. time will tell

thanks


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## custard (19 Feb 2016)

Beau":3an8n73r said:


> I don't think you want to be selling just furniture as mentioned there is lots of good functional furniture out there going for peanuts. You need to make art that works as furniture then money seems immaterial to those that want it. This is coming from someone who was a good maker but bad designer and never made any money after 15+ years of furniture making.



You raise a very interesting point.

For most of the 20th century the majority of independent furniture makers, no matter what particular style they worked in, followed the Arts & Crafts ideal of making functional furniture that was intended for real homes or real workplaces. It rarely worked out that way, as bespoke furniture was just too expensive for anyone but the wealthiest few percent. But sometime during the late 1980's and early 1990's something remarkable happened in both the US and the UK, a few audacious makers began to position their furniture as either artworks or as future antiques, so not for the top 1% but instead for the top 0.1% or 0.01%, and previously unimagined prices began to be achieved. Suddenly the target market for bespoke furniture was no longer well-off but still middle class lawyers and company directors, it was now super rich hedge fund managers and museums. 

Many people have identified John Makepeace's "Millennium Chair" as a turning point in the UK (despite its name I think the first of these chairs was actually made in the late 1980's). This article from 1993 gives a flavour of the impact that this movement, often called Studio Furniture, was having,

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 62748.html

A generation of furniture makers in the UK and US looked at these six figure prices and concluded (not unreasonably!) that instead of walking a perilous financial tightrope they'd get themselves an agent, produce just one or two astonishing pieces a year, and cash in on this new bonanza. 

It also heralded a desperate scramble to raise skill levels in order to make pieces which were at the very cutting edge of what could be achieved. This is a bit of sidetrack but it's an important one. To make good quality _rectilinear_ furniture isn't all that difficult. Maybe something of the order of 1,000-1,200 hours of training will normally get someone to the level where they can make most furniture that's primarily composed of straight lines and right angles (think Shaker style furniture for example), a dedicated hobbyist could reasonably aspire to this standard. To become a fully rounded "cabinet maker", i.e. able to make veneered, curved, laminated, shaped, and compound angled work such as jointed chairs or a Carlton House Desk, is a level above this, and probably requires 10,000-12,000 hours, so in effect not much different to a traditional apprenticeship. But the astronomical prices for "Studio Furniture" required the maker to raise their game to a third level, where they were making pieces that involved genuinely new and highly demanding techniques like free form lamination. So there was a migration to the workshops of Makepeace, Barnsley, Osgood, and Krenov where designer makers thought (rightly or wrongly) they could equip themselves with the masterpiece skills to break into this new super priced market. It's also no co-incidence that in the UK the Guild Mark took on a new significance, as makers hoped that by winning a Guild Mark they could join this elite club and attract the attention of museums and collectors.

But here's the thing. When the 2007/8 crash happened the Studio Furniture market was one of its first victims, commissions evaporated overnight. And, when I talk to people who were or are genuine players in this category, I'm told sales have been very, very slow to come back. Even though six figure prices are still occasionally being realised today, it does seem they are now very much fewer than they were. Maybe this business will bounce back, who knows, however as of today it seems it was a brief twenty year aberration that's been and gone. But that hasn't prevented a small group of extremely talented makers doggedly pursuing this particular dream. Good luck to them, even if the super high priced market isn't there, they're pushing the boundaries of what's possible in furniture making and as far as I'm concerned that's a wonderful thing in itself!


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## sawdust1 (19 Feb 2016)

I would love to make some of what i call arty farty furniture but my client base consists of mainly retired folk who have a more conservative taste so what i make is of a traditional nature. Its what they ask for, its what i make, it pays the bills. 
Although furniture has been my main income, these days its on the back burner and my income now is from other wood related 
businesses, been their done it and found it to much of a struggle.
Thats why i'm happy to give advice to any beginner.
Anyone starting out now has the best tool available to them now and thats the internet, it wasn't around in my day !
Paul i see you are at Yeovil i,m your side of Honition, coffee and a chat if you want.


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## navypaul (19 Feb 2016)

sawdust1":1uqff0nh said:


> I would love to make some of what i call arty farty furniture but my client base consists of mainly retired folk who have a more conservative taste so what i make is of a traditional nature. Its what they ask for, its what i make, it pays the bills.
> Although furniture has been my main income, these days its on the back burner and my income now is from other wood related
> businesses, been their done it and found it to much of a struggle.
> Thats why i'm happy to give advice to any beginner.
> ...




yes mate ill do that thanks


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## flanajb (19 Feb 2016)

For what it's worth, I think the only way of being able to make a living is to potentially offer fitted furniture. Built in cupboards under the stairs or alcoves ...

I have a friend who makes very contemporary furniture which he then sells each year at Dorset Arts Week. One thing he makes is floor standing lamps. He will knock these out as and when he is a little quiet or has time on his hands. His main business though is fitted furniture and cupboards. You need to find a niche that you can fill, where it is not cost effective or the volume is not there for a large player to enter the same market.

Good luck with what you decide.


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## wolfey (19 Feb 2016)

I have to say this area of woodworking was the basis of my business plan 15 years ago when I finished my apprenticeship and set up my first machine shop, and have made many attempts at it since!!

The fact I have found over the years is it really is more of a dream/hobby than a sustainable business. When I took the company in the direction of more mainstream joinery (kitchens/ doors/ built in furniture ect) I always thought that if it grew and made me my fortune that I could then enter into that field of woodworking with the security of the amount of money required.
My main company now covers 3 warehouses and 2 yards to give an idea of size and I would swap it to be a private 'MAKER' in a small studio workshop any day!! The market in my opinion is just not there nor strong and sustainable enough.

Through my main company we do get to work on the odd small high end piece of furniture now and then and the profit is substantial to say the least (just finished a console table for a customer at a cost of just over 11k, it probably cost around a thousand pound to produce including labour and took around 16hrs total start to finish) We only got it as that was the customers budget for it and we had made their kitchen, study and library last year. They said they only asked us if we would make it as they couldn't find any one that could but felt it was too small a job for us!!
With 10 thousand pound profit for 2 days work and a customer that thinks we done them a favour why wouldn't we all want to be in that market place!! DO we have another job like that lined up?? NO!

You may think you would only need 10 jobs like that a year for a healthy living, but the fact we got it was ONLY because of the main company.

A lad that left me 5 years ago went off to become a private 'MAKER' he lost 70k of his parents money in the first year!! So he started making pine tables ect and selling them on online, he turns a little over a million pound a year and takes a salary of around 150k. Not bad for a 28 year old. His tables sell for between £450 - £650 but they are churning all day and ship them all over Europe. He was a good joiner and had a fantastic business head on him and a lot of drive. Moral is that he could have made it easily as a maker if the market was there, but it wasn't!! so he went the opposite and started to make his fortune out of a hand made low end product to the masses!

My advise is to follow the main stream market and excel where the competitors fail. Maybe then you will be lucky and fall into the "MAKERS" market!! I LIVE IN HOPE!!!!!!!!!!


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## Zeddedhed (19 Feb 2016)

Like others who have posted I would agree that a main business should be to fulfill a known established need - fitted furniture or builders joinery are the two best examples. That's what I do. Now and then I get to design and make something nice, but only now and then. And even then it's still mostly fairly run of the mill. For example, a current client wants a long (1.6m) low (520mm) 4 drawer shoe chest from solid Oak. Not exactly exciting but at least there won't be any Spax pointy devils in it. And I get to get my planes and chisels out and feel like I'm a maker. But I've still got to go for it - two days max excluding finishing or I'll be working for minimum wage.

Ho Hum.


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## RobinBHM (19 Feb 2016)

There is only a very small market for high end freestanding furniture made in small batches. I studied a furniture degree at High Wycombe back in the late 80's. Then a number of quality furniture businesses existed; G-plan, Ercol, Glenisters, Parker Knoll. Now there is almost no furniture industry in High Wycombe or indeed in this country. 

We are in the ikea generation, where furniture is considered a disposable product. CNC automation and third world labour means prices can be very low. 

There is definitely a market for fitted furniture and joinery. It is very possible for a local joinery shop to compete against a Sharps fitted wardrobe or study. 

For high end bespoke cabinetmaking there is a commercial market for shopfitting, pub fitting, restaurants, reception desks, board room tables.


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## sawdust1 (19 Feb 2016)

wolfey, can we have some pics to see what a 11k table looks like ! The most expensive one i've ever made in Oak was around £700. 10K profit is what i would see for 6 months work, which is probably the norm for a one man band.
Things to make, well look around at what people need in their homes. Storage is always in short supply so look at cupboards and
in the kitchen larder cupboards. Yes built in is always a winner. The 3 orders i have booked in at the mo are for fitted, 2 wardrobes and 1 alcove unit which has been delivered.
Paul, send pm for meet up.


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## doctor Bob (19 Feb 2016)

wolfey":3axc1nvj said:


> just finished a console table for a customer at a cost of just over 11k, it probably cost around a thousand pound to produce including labour and took around 16hrs total start to finish



I'd be ashamed and embarrassed to make a post like this. To do it on an open forum is just daft.


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## navypaul (19 Feb 2016)

im not looking at 11k tables as i think that would be unrealistic im looking at a price-point of £800-1k occasional tables and £1.5.2.2k tv stand/table stuff in that area, 5K sofa etc. so not attracting the OFW market but not limiting the market to the uber rich just those which like better quality uk made original if design. maybe a bit quirky but not too high fashion and i only have to match my current wage and ill be happy at say an average profit of £500 to £1k for non sofa furniture and £2K per sofa i only need to sell an average 3 in 2 weeks plus i have my current occupation providing another war dont break out


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## wolfey (19 Feb 2016)

Hello Dr Bob, now I understand the Mr Grumpy tag...

I apologies if this has offended anyone on this forum as I am new and respect this forum is a close community, but I believe I was helping to answer the original question of what I call a 'Makers' market.
The point was to show that it is a maximum profit market but an extremely small one.

If it helps, the picture our customer sent was of an off the shelf console table that comes in 3 set sizes (hence mass produced) from a high end high street store but they wanted it an exact size to fit between two nib walls. The cost of it was 9.5k so for us to charge 1.5k more to hand make it seems very fair.

The point of a makers market is to execute the customers request exactly. Would we have won the job if we had charged 3.5k ? probably not! That is a makers market.

I apologies once again to anyone I have offended and have always enjoyed looking over this forum, I simply decided to join it as I am taking a year out from my main company to set up a new machine shop in the area to cater to the public market of fitted furniture 'kitchens ect' and was going to document it on here for everyone to see it set up and either succeed or fail as thought it may be of interest to some of you to watch it come together and follow the ups and downs of a joinery shop from the start.

Maybe I should have just put it on a YouTube channel instead.!!!

Best

Wolfey


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## doctor Bob (19 Feb 2016)

wolfey":388oxzim said:


> I apologies if this has offended anyone on this forum as I am new and respect this forum is a close community, but I believe I was helping to answer the original question of what I call a 'Makers' market.
> The point was to show that it is a maximum profit market but an extremely small one.
> 
> If it helps, the picture our customer sent was of an off the shelf console table that comes in 3 set sizes (hence mass produced) from a high end high street store but they wanted it an exact size to fit between two nib walls. The cost of it was 9.5k so for us to charge 1.5k more to hand make it seems very fair.
> ...



You haven't offended me, I just think you are bragging about something I'd be ashamed of, still as you say you seem to think it's fair to make a profit of £8500 on the figure they gave you and then bung another £1500 on top. Each to their own. I like to sleep at night.

If I'm honest it smells of bullshite.


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## Zeddedhed (20 Feb 2016)

doctor Bob":13utjfrs said:


> wolfey":13utjfrs said:
> 
> 
> > I apologies if this has offended anyone on this forum as I am new and respect this forum is a close community, but I believe I was helping to answer the original question of what I call a 'Makers' market.
> ...



Question: If the customer is happy to pay your price and is happy with the end product, is it a rip off or something to be 'ashamed of' if you made a very substantial profit?

I have to say i have been in this position myself - more than once.
Some years ago whilst running a building business as a main contractor we were carrying out a refurb of a large exclusive property for a client.
The spec was very high and the project cost was over £2.5 million.
We were not originally contracted to supply and fit the kitchen - the client had found a supplier in Surrey (near Guildford I believe). Our role was simply to manage and facilitate the installation. (Management & attendance in builders contractual parlance)

When it came to the time for the Kitchen company to do their thing it became apparent that they were not going to be able to work within the schedule previously agreed. The client came to us and asked us to 'get something sorted - just make sure the wife is happy'.

We visited the original supplier in Guildford and whilst speaking with one of their workshop staff discovered that the kitchens they were selling were in fact reworked Howdens carcasses with 'bespoke' doors, often from online suppliers.

We were then told the budget - £280k.

When I spoke to the client and suggested the job could be done for much less to the same or higher standard he told me "I promised the wife a £280k kitchen so thats what she's getting."
So he got a kitchen for a shade under £280k. Miele top of the range appliances, solid pippy Oak doors, expensive worktops etc etc.

He and wife were over the moon - we made a lot of money and everyone was happy. Am I ashamed? - No. Do I think it was wrong? - No. can I sleep at night? - No (but thats for very different reasons!!)

I certainly didn't post this to brag - more in response to Wolfeys post and Bobs reply. I don't think it's entirely black and white.

Discuss.


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## sawdust1 (20 Feb 2016)

Thats why the owners of the above are driving around in a porche and i'm in a battered old van.
I have always said some customers will not see all the hours you have spent doing dove tails and mortice joints, all the hours of sanding, its all about the finished item, if it looks good then they are happy. And some just think they are better than you because they have a 10k table and you don't !
Just 1 customer like that would do me !
Would i sleep well at night, no because i would stay awake thinking of what i could spend the money on !


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## Zeddedhed (20 Feb 2016)

sawdust1":1gmr0lbm said:


> Thats why the owners of the above are driving around in a porche and i'm in a battered old van.
> I have always said some customers will not see all the hours you have spent doing dove tails and mortice joints, all the hours of sanding, its all about the finished item, if it looks good then they are happy. And some just think they are better than you because they have a 10k table and you don't !
> Just 1 customer like that would do me !
> Would i sleep well at night, no because i would stay awake thinking of what i could spend the money on !



I'm afraid it's not the case that I'm driving around in a Porsche. Rather a battered old 1987 Landcover Defender or a knackered Transit.
Unfortunately whilst some jobs make a good profit, others don't always work out as planned. Factor in a few bad payers over the years and time not working due to weather/sickness etc, unforeseen expenses and a decent workshop flooding and there goes the profit. I din't say that this was the norm - far from it. Most of the time it's a simple formula of materials plus labour plus overhead and then add on a small profit margin and hope you get the job (and that you estimated the materials and labour correctly and there are no hiccups). Then you make a wage.


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## AJB Temple (20 Feb 2016)

I think the post from Wolfey was taken out of context. He had already done extensive other work for this customer and was asked to do an additional piece. The customer must have been happy in the first place to request this and was clearly happy in the end. It was an incremental piece of work and taken in isolation the book profit looks large to some. However, it could just as easily have been accounted for as a component of the whole, resulting in a different view of the return. If the customer is happy, I can't see the problem. It's a fact of life that some people perceive value in expensive things and would value the same thing less or even not want it if it was cheap. Zedd's point is a good example and having dealt with London property developers on occasions (friend of mine is in the game) I know it to be true. 

I also think that it is a big mistake to cost everything on a materials plus so called profit basis. In this case, we have to attribute value to other things. For example, Wolfey had learnt his trade and was able to do this piece of work perfectly. All that experience and confidence adds value. He has invested in the facility that enables him to do it. And he dropped everything to do it immediately. That adds value too and should not just be costed at an hourly rate. 

In my business, which is not woodwork, I recently charged a new client somewhat in excess of £50,000 for a one off piece of work arranging a particular deal. It required me personally to spend an entire weekend, at zero notice (Friday afternoon), drafting transactional and legal and risk management material that would save them a far larger sum because they stood to suffer a large Swiss loss if they did not meet a tight deadline. I normally don't charge at this rate, but in this case I put my business at their disposal to do a special job that others could not easily do, or do quickly. I have thirty years experience in some specialised areas and this learning has a cost attached to it that at times, occasionally, can add significant value. Was the client ripped off - in my opinion no. They got a damn good service and they paid for it. They were happy as we took over totally and solved their problem totally. This happens in business from time to time and businessmen should not be ashamed of it. Nor should we project it as being the norm, and wolfey didn't. 

I thought his post was interesting and I hope he does indeed recount some of his experiences as maybe some of us could learn from them.


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## Zeddedhed (20 Feb 2016)

AJB, I totally agree with your point about that not all jobs should be costed 'equal'. My point was that the basis of ALL pricing is to first know your base costs (Labour, Materials and Overhead). That tells you the LOWEST you can do it and not take a loss. After that the profit should be suitable for the circumstances. Both yours and the clients.


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## doctor Bob (20 Feb 2016)

Of course it's each to their own. For me though it is black and white. There is making a profit, making a good profit, having a right touch and taking the wee wee.

I like to make a good profit, I do alright, I have a nice house being built. However I have morals and principles which from a personal point of view outweigh any profit.
I know nothing about building and hope my builder is not overcharging me. If he charged me £10000 to fit 5 velux windows and I later found out it should cost £1000 i'd be gutted and disgusted, whether he did a good job or not, even if I'm pleased with the fitting I have still been overcharged.

I have a past life which caused me huge issues, these days I find money is useful, peace of mind is priceless.

These are my values, others have their own.


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## tomatwark (20 Feb 2016)

Zeddedhed":3j56htgr said:


> doctor Bob":3j56htgr said:
> 
> 
> > wolfey":3j56htgr said:
> ...




But you were being honest which is exactly what Bob is saying, your client could have easily have said thanks for stopping this and how much could you sort me out a kitchen for with this spec, but he did not and ended up with a lot better job at the end.

I guess if the rest of the overall project was being that well run by you, it meant more to the client that the whole job was finished on time and he was happy, than saving a few grand.


Something does not ring true about this, Wolfey is saying he has all these businesses and premises and is currently setting up another, any business person that I know, who is this successful would be savy enough not to go on a public forum bragging about how much money he made on a job.

That said I guess I have the outlook on life as Bob.


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## Woodmonkey (20 Feb 2016)

Still waiting to see a picture of this 11 grand table....


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## davin (20 Feb 2016)

I want to see the pine tables the young lad sells online earning himself £100000 a year or whatever figure it was.


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## wolfey (20 Feb 2016)

Hello all, and thank you to Zeddhed, Sawdust1 and AJB Temple for understanding my post.. (not shore how to do the 'Thanked Button thing') Not great with computers, better left at a bench in the machine shop type of guy!!

Firstly I would like to say I am as fare away from a bragger you will ever meet, but understand like most forums there is a certain tone here.......
I enjoyed the posts above as showed other members a different and profitable side to any business, these are known as chance happenings and don't come along often but if dealt with well can make or break a business.

Over the years I've looked in on this forum this is an area that has never been discussed positively, which I feel is a shame for members truly looking for advise to make it in the industry.
To put it blunt... If id have come here for advice when thinking of setting up my first joinery shop I would never of done it!!... Some members on here seem to just bring it down, be it due to their failings or miss fortunes within the industry I do not think it is fair to members looking for a helping hand of positivity on sacrificing everything they have to give it a go..

I was hoping to add a positivity here, when I took my first unit on at 19 I did not have next months rent, I was pushed to do it even by my boss I done my apprenticeship with, I have taken positive advice for the last 15yrs be it investing the last of my money in a new machine that would open a new market for us to enter or taking on another premises so we could handle more work. Every one of these decisions stood to hurt me financially and undo all the hard work I had put in to date. But it was the positivity of those around me including customers that had their own businesses and loved our work gave great advice on what they thought our strong points were and where we needed to work harder.

With taking a step back from my company which is more manufacture based now (not what I ever planned to create but is a rolling snowball now days and if it stopped for a week it would probably fold) I am going back to where it all started and setting up a new local joinery shop to once again supply fitted furniture, kitchens, gates doors ect to the local market.(bit of advice, steer clear of the timber window market unless you are a power house!) tuff side of the industry unless you are big. Great on a small scale for 'Church works' ect tho.

In doing this I thought you guys would like to have followed it from set up stage which starts in 3-4 weeks time.

As I say, I am a normal woodworker and not a bragger, I work Saturdays as I have always done since 16 and am at our proposed unit today loading skips, having a fire and got the strimmer out in the yard. Just popped into the unit to get out the rain and have a coffee.

Once again, thank you to those who understood where I was coming from and sorry to anyone I rattled.

I just think it would be nice to see more positivity on this forum as we are in a great market with access to anyone with determination and the correct decisions.

If I leave one thing, you are allowed to make mistakes, as long as you crack straight back on.....! 
And for the tuff on here, I was always taught......" There is no shame in business!" 

Best

Wolfey


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## Beau (20 Feb 2016)

wolfey":1xx75joc said:


> Hello all, and thank you to Zeddhed, Sawdust1 and AJB Temple for understanding my post.. (not shore how to do the 'Thanked Button thing') Not great with computers, better left at a bench in the machine shop type of guy!!
> 
> Firstly I would like to say I am as fare away from a bragger you will ever meet, but understand like most forums there is a certain tone here.......
> I enjoyed the posts above as showed other members a different and profitable side to any business, these are known as chance happenings and don't come along often but if dealt with well can make or break a business.
> ...



=D> =D> =D> 

Good post.


It's not really surprising that you get a fair bit of negativity on forums as those that are doing well are getting on with their work not messing about on the internet. I fall into the others that are not so good at it end up messing about the internet for ideas haha


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## doctor Bob (20 Feb 2016)

I'm not questioning your positivity, how well you have done, sounds like you have done great.
I'm questioning the ethics of your post, thats all.


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## davin (20 Feb 2016)

Would still be very interested in a "blog" about your new venture. Good luck.


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## Beau (20 Feb 2016)

Jeez if I could make something in few hours, please the customer and make a killing why not. Plenty of times I have made something on less than the minimum wage due to poor quoting. Bob would you say the customer is unethical to not pay more under these circumstances?

You win some you lose some is how I see it.


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## tomatwark (20 Feb 2016)

Wolfey

If you had put the last post first you may not have got such a reaction, it is the sort of post that gains respect.

The point that was trying to be made, I think was that some of us have been in business as long and longer than you and are very sceptical about this table and the profit.

I am sitting here today in my office doing quotes and working out the lads jobs for next week, so know all about working weekends and evenings etc.

This is a good place to bounce ideas off each other and pick up tips ( Bob pointed something out to me last week that was so simple I kicked myself for not having thought of it, I have only been in this game for 30 years so I am still learning.)

I am sure that there will be a lot of people that would like to see you set up your new venture and also may be able to offer advice or and alternative way of solving a problem, or point out if something may not be a good idea.

If you read the threads that appear on here from time to time you will see, there is a common factor to a lot of them in that people seem to think that this is an easy game to get into.

I read somewhere once ( can't remember where ) that over 50% of woodworking businesses go bust in the first couple of years and it is down to thinking that it is a case of buying some machines, renting a workshop and starting to make things to sell.

Most of the negatives that are raised on these threads are really just making people think before they jump and in a very brutal way hopefully stopping them form making a mistake.


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## Rhossydd (20 Feb 2016)

wolfey":329ux9gt said:


> not shore how to do the 'Thanked Button thing'


Just click the small button, bottom right with the yellow 'thumbs up' graphic.

Good on you for showing a positive side too! It can't all be doom and gloom.


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## navypaul (20 Feb 2016)

"Over the years I've looked in on this forum this is an area that has never been discussed positively, which I feel is a shame for members truly looking for advise to make it in the industry.
To put it blunt... If id have come here for advice when thinking of setting up my first joinery shop I would never of done it!!... Some members on here seem to just bring it down, be it due to their failings or miss fortunes within the industry I do not think it is fair to members looking for a helping hand of positivity on sacrificing everything they have to give it a go.."

finally a ray of light, i went to bed last night questioning my self if there was any point to it, as there was very little positivity or success stories, as you said but for every one that succeeds countless fail so its not surprising the negative vibe 

there has been some good advice and you can learn from the failings as well as the successes of people.


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## Zeddedhed (20 Feb 2016)

navypaul,
I think the point here is that those of us that are in business for ourselves are keen to bring a dose of reality. My career as a self employed woodworker began in the eighties when it was hard to fail, especially if you worked in the construction side of things.

I've had several friends who have planned to give up a day job that provides for them and their families and to go into business for themselves and 'live the dream'.

I would guess that 1 in 1000 truly achieve that (wealth, satisfaction, the yacht etc etc). Probably 10% of the remainder do well for themselves and make a comfortable living, as good as or maybe even ultimately better than their previous career would have provided.
The rest either make a basic living (wage) or realise that it's much harder than they thought and pack it in.

I know 5 designer makers personally and not one of them makes more than £30k from it - most of them a lot less. They all subsidise their work with either general joinery, built ins or other work (one works in a timber yard, one in a Library and one in a fast food restaurant - I don't know what the other two are currently doing) and all of them have partners working full time. I can't remember the last time any of them took a proper holiday.

That's not negative. It's true.


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## tomatwark (20 Feb 2016)

navypaulfinally a ray of light said:


> As far as I can recalled no one has ever come out and said do not do it, but do your research before you jump, find out what your local market wants as this will be where you start, there is no point in making something that the customer in your town will not want or cannot afford.
> 
> Find out if there are other woodworkers near by doing similar things, if there is not, the reason may be there is not a demand in your area for what you are thinking of making, so have a plan B. This may be not what you are wanting to do but if you can make a living using the machines you have already bought you should survive while you work on plan C which hopefully incorporate part of Plan A.
> 
> ...


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## Woodmonkey (20 Feb 2016)

Am I the only one who wants to see what an 11 grand console table looks like?


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## Jacob (20 Feb 2016)

navypaul":duoqzdiv said:


> I am thinking about starting a small furniture co. designing and making my own range as an online business i have the outline of a business plan and many original designs (used to design for a company up north years ago, went to college and all that) the thing i have made seen to be well received so i am trying to give it ago
> 
> has anyone gone down the same route, im looking for some advice and potential pitfalls
> 
> ...


Make stuff that you like and would consider buying yourself if you weren't a maker (and could afford it).
There doesn't have to be a business plan or procedure - basically make some stuff and set about selling it, as best you can, even if it's just to your mum. It's all good practice with feedback at every step.


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## sawdust1 (20 Feb 2016)

wood monkey i asked for a picture and still waiting, if i made a table that was that special to command such a high price tag i would want to show it off to the world.
I don't think anyone is being negative here, if we all said go for it you will make a fortune, how helpful would that be. Some of us have been here for a long time so know the pitfalls so when a newbie asks for some advice us oldies are going to tell it as it is and 
not paper over the cracks.
I'm loving this thread, shop talk, its why i joined.
At 56 i'm no expert so can learn as much as give advice.


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## RobinBHM (20 Feb 2016)

navypaul":2jfejrvd said:


> im not looking at 11k tables as i think that would be unrealistic im looking at a price-point of £800-1k occasional tables and £1.5.2.2k tv stand/table stuff in that area, 5K sofa etc. so not attracting the OFW market but not limiting the market to the uber rich just those which like better quality uk made original if design. maybe a bit quirky but not too high fashion and i only have to match my current wage and ill be happy at say an average profit of £500 to £1k for non sofa furniture and £2K per sofa i only need to sell an average 3 in 2 weeks plus i have my current occupation providing another war dont break out



There may well be a market for tv stand/table furniture. The chrome and glass gv stands usually look rubbish and not very useful, maybe your original designs could fill a gap in the market, perhaps being a partly modular AV media wall that has a back for cable management. There maybe sone useful advice available on AVforums.

I know some joinery companies that buy in their frame material machined to section, so they only have to end joint and assemble. If you are able to design furniture down to fully dimensioned piece parg drawings maybe you could buy in some parts madd by a contract CNC company and limit yourself to assembly and finishing.

Im not sure how well furniture will sell from a website rather than a showroom, something to research.

I realise advise offered on this forum can seem negative, but dont give up the idea -use the negative advise as a reason to plan harder


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## pcb1962 (20 Feb 2016)

Woodmonkey":3ed2o5i1 said:


> Am I the only one who wants to see what an 11 grand console table looks like?



No, I'd like to see it too. That's the kind of money I'd expect to pay for something (smallish) from Doucette and Wolfe.


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## HOJ (20 Feb 2016)

navypaul":26ilav5a said:


> I am thinking about starting a small furniture co. designing and making my own range as an online business


I am involved with a design studio business, based in London, Online, we make a range of items that used to be sold as "Finished" (read painted).

We now sell them "Naked" for the customer to finish in their preferred choice of colour.(read paint themselves).

Everything is template driven, we run of batches at a time, so have stock for despatch.


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## RobinBHM (20 Feb 2016)

HOJ":1xfr2vp6 said:


> navypaul":1xfr2vp6 said:
> 
> 
> > I am thinking about starting a small furniture co. designing and making my own range as an online business
> ...



That's an interesting market sector, quite a few years ago I remember coming across scumble goosie that sell unpainted furniture ready for paknt effects to be applied.

What types and style of furniture does your design studio sell?


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## navypaul (20 Feb 2016)

Zeddedhed":hwt290pk said:


> navypaul,
> I think the point here is that those of us that are in business for ourselves are keen to bring a dose of reality. My career as a self employed woodworker began in the eighties when it was hard to fail, especially if you worked in the construction side of things.
> 
> I've had several friends who have planned to give up a day job that provides for them and their families and to go into business for themselves and 'live the dream'.
> ...



if its true can it not be negative also? i understand what you are saying there doesn't seem to be too many success stories highlighted here and then wolfie i think it was came in and said he made a good bit of profit on a table and is setting up other businesses concurrently now that's positivity, most people have given some good words of encouragement, and made good points and others dont think they understood the post. 

although it was an interesting statement about the 5 design and build guys who all had limited success i would like to get in touch with them if possible.


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## navypaul (20 Feb 2016)

There may well be a market for tv stand/table furniture. The chrome and glass gv stands usually look rubbish and not very useful, maybe your original designs could fill a gap in the market, perhaps being a partly modular AV media wall that has a back for cable management. There maybe sone useful advice available on AVforums.

I know some joinery companies that buy in their frame material machined to section, so they only have to end joint and assemble. If you are able to design furniture down to fully dimensioned piece parg drawings maybe you could buy in some parts madd by a contract CNC company and limit yourself to assembly and finishing.

Im not sure how well furniture will sell from a website rather than a showroom, something to research.

I realise advise offered on this forum can seem negative, but dont give up the idea -use the negative advise as a reason to plan harder [/quote]

internet sales will be the big stumbling block if anything is going to be, stores snatch too much profit and limit your audience to local areas or craft fares i want to avoid that if possible and spread the word as far as possible, and the net is the perfect medium for it just getting it noticed may be tricky but thats where social media comes in have you ever soon how many 'how to' vids there are and the very large amount of views they get if your not using social media then your only playing at business man imo why limit yourself to local area, the net can be a daunting place for those that dont understand it but it is the rest of the world out there and it can be looking for you, im sure £11k table man knows this and the guy who makes cheap pine furniture will certainly know this 

made.com gets more virtual footfall a day than most big towns do a week 

i have been paying close attention to what they are saying but closer attention to what is not being said by most of the posters and that speaks volumes. 

regards


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## navypaul (20 Feb 2016)

HOJ":h2r0hbe6 said:


> navypaul":h2r0hbe6 said:
> 
> 
> > I am thinking about starting a small furniture co. designing and making my own range as an online business
> ...



whats the co. sounds like we should talk


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## navypaul (20 Feb 2016)

Jacob":3qzp0aar said:


> navypaul":3qzp0aar said:
> 
> 
> > I am thinking about starting a small furniture co. designing and making my own range as an online business i have the outline of a business plan and many original designs (used to design for a company up north years ago, went to college and all that) the thing i have made seen to be well received so i am trying to give it ago
> ...



thats pretty much it i am my target audience and my stuff so far has been received very well, thats largely how this all came about


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## navypaul (20 Feb 2016)

tomatwark said:


> [quote="navypaul but do your research before you jump, find out what your local market wants as this will be where you start, there is no point in making something that the customer in your town will not want or cannot afford.
> 
> Find out if there are other woodworkers near by doing similar things, if there is not, the reason may be there is not a demand in your area for what you are thinking of making,
> 
> my plan is an online shop to sell to the country/world or whoever wants it. no limitations on market just probs associated with it


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## Zeddedhed (20 Feb 2016)

navypaul":1uw66103 said:


> my plan is an online shop to sell to the country/world or whoever wants it. no limitations on market just probs associated with it



Check out Indigo furniture. I'm sure there are others but they seem to doing well. I'm not a huge fan of their stuff but it sells well by all accounts.

For the record, I would be the last person to try and discourage someone with your obvious enthusiasm. I just want to ensure that people considering going it alone are hearing both sides.

I know that I have a tendency to filter out negative opinions if I really want something. I'm not suggesting you do the same but just in case 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and keep us all posted. I for one will be delighted for you if you make it big.


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## navypaul (20 Feb 2016)

Zeddedhed":309wtgn7 said:


> navypaul":309wtgn7 said:
> 
> 
> > my plan is an online shop to sell to the country/world or whoever wants it. no limitations on market just probs associated with it
> ...



thanks for the words i know it can all go wrong or not as well as i planned for im no stranger to adversity but i think rarely do chances and the necessity to change your life come. any and all info is appreciated regardless of tone. its something not completely new to me but doing it all myself its a terrifying prospect so i have respect for anyone who does it regardless of how much they earn from it, im not that material and BIG to me is probably modest to most. 

ultimately i just want to spend more time at home with the family. (by home i mean the same county as my family 30 months in 7 years  )

hopefully by the end of the year/early next year it will all be up and running. lets hope. x

thanks all
paul


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## Dusty (20 Feb 2016)

Hi Paul , thought I would chib in with my thoughts , I have worked for myself for 15 years now , started life in the coinstruction industry 20 years ago , site work etc . Over the years , ended up doing more at private reisdences . I had alot of demand for made to fit Items for homes , wether shelves , cuboards etc . I slowly pushed into more workshop based production .

I still carry out work at properties but I try and keep the workshop running . I make all the usual , windows , doors , cuboards etc and a bit of furniture on request and some items for a company based on period items . Inbetween is my production , not "art" but furniture with a twist , using wood , metal , concrete . I make a reasonable number from my work but the marketing is the hard part . 

What I am trying to say is , dont get blinkered into one track , never say no ( unless daft ) . Use any and all connection , you will be suprised , as Wolfe said , one little job repairing Dorris's rotten window board might end up in a custom timber build , quite often I have done well from repeat / referred custom . I know this is not your business model , but if it helps fund it , dont turn it down . 

Good Luck with your ambition and drive and keep us all posted 

Dusty


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## tomatwark (20 Feb 2016)

navypaul":1031x3e4 said:


> my plan is an online shop to sell to the country/world or whoever wants it. no limitations on market just probs associated with it



This something I am currently setting up as an addition to my current business, If you decide to go a head make some enquires with the local Business Link or what ever they are now called in England.

Here in Scotland there is some funding available and also advice for e-commerce BUT you need to apply for it before you start on the project.

You will be able to build your prototypes etc but I would talk to them first to find which is the best use of any grant money that is out there.

Help is available in setting up a woodworking business, but as soon as you mention the Internet and E-commerce eyes light up and there can be more money available to you, its technology and is sexy.

Unless you are really computer savvy and have set up an E-commerce site before, get someone who knows how to do it spend the time on your designs.

It has to look slick and be secure.

My current basic gallery website I did myself and it is ok , but I will pay for the new one.

I guess from your posts that you are currently in the forces, is there any help when you come out with resettlement which will help you get to where you want to be?


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## navypaul (20 Feb 2016)

tomatwark":2g0s3obo said:


> navypaul":2g0s3obo said:
> 
> 
> > my plan is an online shop to sell to the country/world or whoever wants it. no limitations on market just probs associated with it
> ...



resettlement is good for training and courses exactly like this but im not planning to come out yet not too long in the future but not yet


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## Togalosh (21 Feb 2016)

IMHO
1) Go for it (with all the advise above ringing in your ears).
2) Do not involve family (unless they are extremely forgiving or your other 1/2 likes bookkeeping & is good at it).
3) No cash flow means you are practically insolvent no matter what you are owed.
4) Bookkeeping is sh111t, the software is not easy to learn & the computer it is stored on will fail outright.. & so will the next 1's.
5) Couriers will smash &/or lose your goods all too often & you will be extremely lucky to get proper compensation.. if any.
6) Tax is taxing.
7) Don't be too precious about the business. It is said that it is the 3rd business that is the success & highly unlikely that the 1st attempt is.

HTH
Togs


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## Jacob (21 Feb 2016)

Togalosh":kil2rs4v said:


> ......
> 4) Bookkeeping is sh111t, the software is not easy to learn & the computer it is stored on will fail outright.. & so will the next 1's.
> .....


Yes but it's a lot easier with pencil and paper. My wife keeps trying to do stuff with spread sheets etc but it's hopeless - takes up many hours and the results are impenetrable, if not lost for ever at the click of a mouse. 
An accountant showed me this and I've been grateful ever since: 
Plain lined A4 paper in a ring binder - draw in with a ruler as many vertical columns as you want across two pages. Entries on the left 2 or 3 columns and analysis to the right. Pencil means you can rub out mistakes. One folder for sales (or one page - depends on your turnover,) one folder for purchases.
And a calculator if you can't do simple addition.
Pencil also means you can insert comments or add short columns etc. to be deleted if not wanted. Leaving free space helps.
Ring binder means you can insert new pages or re-arrange existing ones , very easily.


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## doctor Bob (21 Feb 2016)

Jacob":gwjx9tvz said:


> Togalosh":gwjx9tvz said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



Very spurious, so many variables, one man bands maybe, other than that, the benefits of software accounts far outweigh pencil and paper.


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## RobinBHM (21 Feb 2016)

Manual bookkeeping is ok for a simple income and expenditure type of account that a self employed person may use.

Anybody that is VAT registered, employs people on paye or is a ltd co will find software easier. I made the mistake of starting out with quickbooks - American software not set out like English accounting and it allowed all parts of the accounts to be edited. I now use Sage; the de-facto programme for accounts in this country and understood by accountants. Just had to spend £500 on a new pensions module for new regulations.


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## Jacob (21 Feb 2016)

RobinBHM":1yyz67a0 said:


> Manual bookkeeping is ok for a simple income and expenditure type of account that a self employed person may use.


Yes that's what I'm saying. It's more than "OK" it's the best way to start


> Anybody that is VAT registered, employs people on paye or is a ltd co will find software easier. I made the mistake of starting out with quickbooks - American software not set out like English accounting and it allowed all parts of the accounts to be edited. I now use Sage; the de-facto programme for accounts in this country and understood by accountants. Just had to spend £500 on a new pensions module for new regulations.


VAT no prob manually - you just pencil in 3 columns so you have total; 1 with vat, 2 without vat, 3 vat.
I'd strongly advise any start-up sole trader to keep it simple with pencil and paper, until a higher level of complexity is unavoidable. In fact this may never happen.
Keeping it simple also means you get to understand the process whereas a premature attempt via a computer may leave you confused for ever more.

PS and keep all receipts and other odds n ends on a spike until you take them off and enter them in the books and put them away never to be referred to again (if you are lucky)


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## navypaul (21 Feb 2016)

Togalosh":3h9c1r9w said:


> IMHO
> 
> 5) Couriers will smash &/or lose your goods all too often & you will be extremely lucky to get proper compensation.. if any.
> 7) Don't be too precious about the business. It is said that it is the 3rd business that is the success & highly unlikely that the 1st attempt is.
> ...



are couriers really that bad? 
should i set all 3 up at once to save time?? 

paul


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## custard (21 Feb 2016)

VAT?

The 2015/16 VAT threshold is £82,000. An independent furniture maker working as a sole trader is unlikely to get anywhere close to that. My turnover is less than half that level with very little prospect of ever hitting the VAT limit...there simply aren't enough hours in the day for one man to produce enough individually crafted, hardwood furniture to exceed that hurdle!

Of course if someone is the main family breadwinner or has a recent mortgage or is paying rent on a workshop, then things will likely be different. Not because they'll suddenly get their finger out and start working _harder_, but simply because financial imperatives mean they'll start working _differently_. In essence they'll almost certainly migrate their business towards fitted furniture or joinery packages. And then they'll be processing larger quantities of raw materials, chiefly sheet goods, softwoods, or cheaper African hardwoods, so the VAT limit will start to become relevant. 

Maybe it's time to start layering hard numbers onto this abstract discussion.

If the plan is to produce high quality, individually crafted pieces of hardwood furniture as a sole trader then I'll bet pennies to pounds that the maker ends up with a gross contribution of between £15,000 and £25,000 per year (that's _after_ deducting all raw material costs but _before_ deducting any fixed overhead costs, but whichever way you cut these numbers VAT simply doesn't feature). Someone in the lucky position of having almost no overheads, no mortgage, a supportive partner with a proper job, easy access to a wealthy customer base, a pension, or a part time lucrative job, can make this modest scenario fly, and if so then a very pleasant occupation it is too. This is where I reside and I've absolutely no desire to be anywhere else.

But if a maker needs or wants to earn more then they'll almost certainly have to do something differently.

Fitted furniture work is the most obvious candidate. But as any of the people on this forum active in fitted work will tell you, it's no walk in the park. 

What I hear from furniture makers who have gone this route is that you outgrow your bespoke furniture workshop very, very quickly. You need lots more space for finished cabinets, spraying, storage of sheet goods, etc. You need the bigger scale equipment capable of processing sheet goods accurately and efficiently. You need to be able to schedule your work in with that of the other trades involved (which means yet more storage space when delivery dates get changed). You need to be able to show prospective customers what they'll be getting for their money. And what happens in almost all the cases I've seen is that fitted work tends to crowd out the bespoke furniture making, perhaps not completely, but the ratio of fitted to bespoke work is generally much larger than makers originally envisaged, maybe of the order of 10:1 rather than the 1:1 they often hoped it would be. My advice to anyone considering fitted work would be don't think of it as a second best option for keeping the wolf from the door, but throw all your creative energies into it and go for it whole heartedly. Here's a role model worth emulating, a seriously talented furniture maker (and by that I mean a time served cabinet maker capable of making virtually any hardwood furniture to the very highest standards) who decided that bespoke furniture wasn't viable and focused his strong design skills exclusively into kitchen work,

http://www.houzz.co.uk/pro/johnnygreyst ... ey-studios

Another obvious route is joinery packages. So taking on the subbed out contracts to realise an architect led development project. This might get the maker closer to bespoke free standing furniture work, but it's within the commercial framework of a larger architectural undertaking. An example of a successful business model along these lines could be this one,

http://www.cimitree.co.uk

However, you'll immediately see that both of these examples are _real_ businesses! Gone is any sort of bucolic dream of pottering in your own small workshop while communing with the timber; this is about scheduling, deadlines, productivity, managerial decisions, and the endless search for greater efficiency. These are not stress free options!

Now there are other options for the maker who is determined to be purist about creating original furniture, but still wants to take a bigger wage. I mentioned earlier in this thread the Studio Furniture movement and six figure prices, as I said at one time that market really did look like the solution, but it's struggled badly since the 2007/8 recession and may never fully return. In any event it's an option that's only open to makers genuinely capable of marrying extraordinary original designs with extraordinary cabinet making skill. Another possibility is using teaching to cover the workshop overheads and make a profit while freeing up enough of the maker's time to produce masterpiece works. This business model is growing all the time and you don't have to look far to find examples, here are two but there are many more with new entrants arriving all the time,

http://www.marcfish.co.uk

http://www.watersandacland.co.uk

Finally, it's worth saying a word about sharing overheads in a joint workshop. I know a few of these that seem to work okay, but I know more that have foundered, generally because of silly personality clashes that have escalated. And it's easy to see how things can go horribly wrong. Maker A has a client visit the workshop, who then sees something they like that Maker B has made and wants one. Who then takes on that job? Or Maker A starts to take on more joinery work and needs the spindle moulder a lot more, Makers B and C get frustrated that they can't access that particular machine. How do you resolve that? Or Maker A is constantly "borrowing" bits of "scrap" for his chair making jigs, but never seems to actually order any MDF, Ply, or Poplar. What's the solution? So shared workshops have enormous advantages, but to succeed they need exceptionally civic minded craftsmen or very clear rules...probably both!

Anyhow, from where I sit in this business that's how the world looks to me. Whatever you finally choose, I wish you luck, success, and a great deal of pleasure along the way!


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## navypaul (21 Feb 2016)

very informative post custard thanks.


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## MIGNAL (21 Feb 2016)

Brilliant post Custard. 
I don't think I'll bother. It's just easier to watch TV, sit at the internet, watch someone making things on Utube!


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## Jacob (21 Feb 2016)

custard":gxhb0o1b said:


> ......In essence they'll almost certainly migrate their business towards fitted furniture or joinery packages. .....


Or making multiples - stuff to sell rather than individually crafted, bespoke etc. 
I don't know why woodworkers don't like this side of the business - I think they are hung up on a dubious romantic notion of how things should be done. As a result they end up teaching instead (and promulgating dubious romantic notions!)

Or to put it another way - virtually everything you own was made in multiples and not bespoke. I don't know anybody who would buy bespoke woodwork and I never have myself (except "fitted" kitchen is the nearest most people get to bespoke). So why does anybody think there is much of a market out there, particularly bearing in mind that bespoke can cost many times more than a production run?


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## Wizard9999 (21 Feb 2016)

Very interesting thread.



wolfey":xgjyd3mv said:


> ...With taking a step back from my company which is more manufacture based now (not what I ever planned to create but is a rolling snowball now days and if it stopped for a week it would probably fold) I am going back to where it all started and* setting up a new local joinery shop to once again supply fitted furniture, kitchens, *gates doors ect to the local market.(bit of advice, steer clear of the timber window market unless you are a power house!) tuff side of the industry unless you are big. Great on a small scale for 'Church works' ect tho...


Hmmmm, making fitted furniture and kitchens in Essex. Isn't Matching Green in Essex, where Doctor Bob makes fitted furniture and kitchens? This one could have legs :wink: .

Terry.


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## navypaul (21 Feb 2016)

Jacob":htltgswf said:


> custard":htltgswf said:
> 
> 
> > ......In essence they'll almost certainly migrate their business towards fitted furniture or joinery packages. .....
> ...



this was my idea well a bit of a combination of the two, i have very limited space at the moment so i offer a product that you can but 'off the shelf' except that shelf is virtual, i then make it and sent to you. templates already made up and time has been minimalised by prior prep the customer knows what he/she/they are getting because of pics and a how i made this film. 

thats the plan anyway good i n theory


just out of curiosity how have you been marketing your business?


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## Jacob (21 Feb 2016)

navypaul":2a52isxr said:


> Jacob":2a52isxr said:
> 
> 
> > custard":2a52isxr said:
> ...


Sounds interesting - photos?
A few local ads to start with, then word of mouth - until the internet kicked off then DIY website ever since. 
The web is very different from any shop in that you can set up a web shop and sell just one thing (if that's all you have). Most extreme example I've seen so far is a geezer selling nothing but "guitar strap locks" - which are just tough rubber bottle top washers for the self brew trade. He seems to be doing OK!


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## navypaul (21 Feb 2016)

custard":2e45ua0j said:


> just out of curiosity how have you been marketing your business?


Sounds interesting - photos?
A few local ads to start with, then word of mouth - until the internet kicked off then DIY website ever since. 
The web is very different from any shop in that you can set up a web shop and sell just one thing (if that's all you have). Most extreme example I've seen so far is a geezer selling nothing but "guitar strap locks" - which are just tough rubber bottle top washers for the self brew trade. He seems to be doing OK![/quote][/quote]


i aim to have about 25-30 products photographed and filmed making on the site but stock nothing just have all the kit to make it ready


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## tomatwark (21 Feb 2016)

Custard has made very good point about going from not making a comfortable living from making one off pieces to fitted furniture.

This is the way I have ended up going, and have had to expand from 1000sqft to 4000sqft as well as taking on staff and the headaches that creates, would I go back? Probably not.

We still make one off smaller bits, but could not survive with out the bread and butter work of the fitted stuff.


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## Togalosh (21 Feb 2016)

navypaul":egpc51cn said:


> Togalosh":egpc51cn said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO
> ...



Yes. Palletline(*spit!*) once dropped a £3500 oven off a forklift onto it's roof. It came back to us squashed & they offered us £80 scrap metal value & danced a merry legal dance for months into years. I also found that no glass is insurable.

You might well succeed at the 1st attempt - who knows ? Business takes a hard (cold ?) heart & a level head so sentimentality has no place. I fail badly in 2:3 of those traits. 

I do have regrets but only because it has spoilt family life. Failing is not to be ashamed of. Not trying is tricky reconcile.. but that could be ego messing with you.

Keep it simple- dead simple, keep the overheads down, don't overstretch y'self, know your limitations, don't allow ego to interfere in your decisions, always do the maths before quoting, commincate, don't believe people who ask for good rates now as there's more business later, a lot of "nice" people have absolutely no intention of paying or have absolutely no qualms about not paying... blahblahblah.

Good luck !.. & show us what you are doing please.

Togs


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## Togalosh (21 Feb 2016)

RobinBHM":1aanc7ui said:


> ...quickbooks - .



Oh.. you've set off my nervous tick !


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## tomatwark (21 Feb 2016)

A lot of carriers will not insure furniture, so you need to do your home work.

The comment about your computer losing your accounts data is a bit odd as you should back it up and also most of these packages can be cloud based anyway.

We used spread sheets until this year when we got big enough to justify an accounts package and never had any major problems, I spoke to the accountants and found out from them how they wanted the data entered.

This has saved me a lot of money over the years as the accountant could do my year end and tax return easily with only a handful of questions.

We also did the VAT this way as well.

I know you can do your own accounts and tax return but a good accountant will save you time that you should be spending making things and not scratching your head about how income tax, capital allowances work, etc.


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## Stuart (22 Feb 2016)

I do not want to be too negative but to go from working in the navy to then moving into designing and building furniture whether one off, fitted or whatever is one big jump. My advice is get a job in a workshop even if it is only one day a week while in the navy and just see how fast, skilled, and organised you have to be to earn a living. This could be a better way of finding out the possitives and negatives because it would your personal experience not other persons on this forum. Just be prepared for a reality check! I


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## Emanuel (22 Feb 2016)

navypaul":2odumrq6 said:


> I am thinking about starting a small furniture co. designing and making my own range as an online business i have the outline of a business plan and many original designs (used to design for a company up north years ago, went to college and all that) the thing i have made seen to be well received so i am trying to give it ago
> 
> has anyone gone down the same route, im looking for some advice and potential pitfalls
> 
> ...


Paul, can you get a share from the market? - that's the question that you need to ask yourself before starting anything. 
There are a lot of potential pitfalls/threats that could affect you negatively (the market is already full; you don't have enough funds to enter the market; your potential customers don't like your designs - I am not saying that they will not like them, but there is a possibility). 
the thing is that threats will always be there, but if you are confident that you can make a good product and have the means to supply, then go for it. 
Who would be your target? have you thought about targeting furniture suppliers?


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## navypaul (22 Feb 2016)

Stuart":35p4xath said:


> I do not want to be too negative but to go from working in the navy to then moving into designing and building furniture whether one off, fitted or whatever is one big jump. My advice is get a job in a workshop even if it is only one day a week while in the navy and just see how fast, skilled, and organised you have to be to earn a living. This could be a better way of finding out the possitives and negatives because it would your personal experience not other persons on this forum. Just be prepared for a reality check! I



Some valid points but day release is not possible and I intend to make in my time off at first as I expect.it to be very slow

Paul


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## navypaul (22 Feb 2016)

Emanuel":280ynl04 said:


> navypaul":280ynl04 said:
> 
> 
> > I am thinking about starting a small furniture co. designing and making my own range as an online business i have the outline of a business plan and many original designs (used to design for a company up north years ago, went to college and all that) the thing i have made seen to be well received so i am trying to give it ago
> ...



Ultimately I am my target market my sort of age around probably have kids that are approx 10+ both work full time with stable jobs, are competent with the Web and fully ofay with social media. Products will not be cheap (but not ridiculous), peer priced, so I expect then to do their research on me and the company and the things I make I would not expect any less and I will give them all they need in that respect. Well that's the plan.


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## Jacob (22 Feb 2016)

navypaul":2jfw0bah said:


> ....
> Ultimately I am my target market my sort of age around probably have kids that are approx 10+ both work full time with stable jobs, are competent with the Web and fully ofay with social media. Products will not be cheap (but not ridiculous), peer priced, so I expect then to do their research on me and the company and the things I make I would not expect any less and I will give them all they need in that respect. Well that's the plan.


Sounds good. The bit of the market you know best is the bit you inhabit yourself.
25 - 30 products sounds a lot. If very different you have the prob of sourcing and storing 25/30 different materials, fittings etc and could lose economy of scale compared to getting 25/30 orders for just one thing. 
25/30 close variations of same thing might be good but then won't necessarily increase sales - if you just had on they might all go for that one.
What about kicking off with your favourite one and seeing how it goes?
Web sites are different from shops - you want as big a footfall as you can achieve, maybe many 1000s, in the hopes that just a few of them will end up buying. To get the visitors you give away lots of free advice, demos, anything to make it interesting and relevant, including links out - which gets you a sort of through trade like a high st.


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## navypaul (22 Feb 2016)

Jacob":24d9iixp said:


> navypaul":24d9iixp said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



The reason i picked this figure is that i dont trust web shops that have a small range unless its something very specific. I have about 15 designs at the mo. some on a theme eg living room table similar to hall table to add continuity in the house, and some stand alone because not everyone wants to match. 

I want validity in my 'shop' too few items to me does not add any credibility, and for buying something unseen i need as much as possible as im not a name anyone knows, so they could find it hard to trust my products. and a full store adds a bit of an air of established and trustworthy, do you not think ?

designing and making the things is not the hard part getting them noticed will be, one shop in the world that makes a set range could be quite insignificant, i asked in a earlier post how people market their business, i dont think anyone replied to that. i believe marketing is everything. would you still eat mcdonalds junk it they didnt have a sound marketing strategy? obviously i dont have their budget but i think you still need to plan as much of a strategy as you can. if not how else are people to know your there?

they wont. WOM is no where near enough.


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## Zeddedhed (22 Feb 2016)

You're absolutely right about marketing.
I firmly believe that with the right marketing, publicity and branding any product can be sold at a better(higher) price. Look at Apple. Although I must admit to being something of a fanboy it isn't THAT much better than everything else, but it sells for twice as much, if not more.

Good marketing works well, but it does cost a lot of money.


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## RobinBHM (22 Feb 2016)

I used to advertise in lifestyle magazines like homes and gardens, sussex life etc. 

Over a period of 18 months I designed a new website, built from the ground up with search engine optimisation in mind. I now have a site that gets first page results for many keyword phrases. It means I no longer need to spend any money on magazine advertising.

Google analytics is very useful and if you look in google adwords you can find the number of searches a keyword phrase has generated. A lot of SEO is common sense and the more you can do yourself, the more you will understand about selling your product online. Yes website design and search engine optimisation can be done by specialists but they will never have the knowledge, interest or time to understand your products like you will. 

You are correct that a website needs to be a fair size to appear established, also google gives better rankings to larger sites, there is simply more relavent info for its spiders to index. Can you buy in a small range of accessories to sell alongside your furniture - an opportunity to widen the product range perhaps.

lifestyle products such as furniture need great imagery. I use a professional photorapher, its expensive but I have a few shoots done a year and so after a few years its possible have an excellent portfolio. You will probably want individual products shots as well as fully dressed room settings.

A local shop to me is oka, they have an online furniture shop 

https://www.okadirect.com

Maybe not your contemporary style, but a good example of fantastic imagery.

Best of luck with your venture


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## Togalosh (22 Feb 2016)

tomatwark":1mbjmoyu said:


> The comment about your computer losing your accounts data is a bit odd as you should back it up and also most of these packages can be cloud based anyway..



So then you must back-up every single day without fail. If only we were so fastidious.
We had 2 PC's & 2 laptops fail in 3 months last year. We had QB 2010 software that wasn't 100% compatible with the new PC with windows 8, then the new QB cloud wouldn't recognise 2010 QB but we could send our data to Australia to have it made compatible but this would take weeks & ££ ..so we went for new pc based software but got a windows 7 PC instead. In 1 week alone it took me 20 hrs after work trying to figure out why we couldn't email estimates & invoices. Modern life is stressful at times.

A 3 column journal in pencil or a spreadsheet is would be great but QB does more than just bookkeeping.

So if you do need software do you spend £120 for a PC based software or spend £180 a year for the cloud based option?


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## Emanuel (23 Feb 2016)

navypaul":you8nni6 said:


> Emanuel":you8nni6 said:
> 
> 
> > navypaul":you8nni6 said:
> ...



Ok. It's good that you have a target audience in mind. I am not trying to discourage you, but would these people buy furniture online? even if they are competent with the Web, if they don't buy on-line, then you might face a problem.
Then, are you "comfortable" to compete with the big manufacturers and suppliers? Let#s take as example made.com they invested a lot in advertising and it worked for them because they had/have deep pockets. Do you have enough money to invest in advertising your brand name and for optimising your website?
I am not trying to discourage you because you have chances to be successful, but you need to take all of this into account when taking your decision. Just as an idea, maybe you can position yourself in the market as a bespoke furniture maker? - that could give you an edge over the competition.


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2016)

Emanuel":2t91eglp said:


> .....
> Ok. It's good that you have a target audience in mind. I am not trying to discourage you, but would these people buy furniture online? even if they are competent with the Web, if they don't buy on-line, then you might face a problem.


Yes if he targets people who buy on line


> Then, are you "comfortable" to compete with the big manufacturers and suppliers?


You wouldn't attempt to compete with big manufacturers you would be looking for a niche which they don't cover too well. e.g. take IKEA designs (which is their strength)but make up-market versions (their stuff is tacky and cheap)


> lLet#s take as example made.com they invested a lot in advertising and it worked for them because they had/have deep pockets. Do you have enough money to invest in advertising your brand name and for optimising your website?


Web sites are dirt cheap - if the site is interesting and the product is any good there will be sales. "Optimising" a web site isn't a mysterious technical process it's about having an interesting site kept simple with plenty of relevant text on the front page. Content is king and text is essential as that's what search engines search for.


> I am not trying to discourage you because you have chances to be successful, but you need to take all of this into account when taking your decision. Just as an idea, maybe you can position yourself in the market as a bespoke furniture maker? - that could give you an edge over the competition.


By all accounts on forums everywhere "bespoke" is a struggle - though there is a middle ground where adapting your product for a client might be worth looking at e.g. having a design which you can make to a clients desired size - more or less what fitted furniture is but can be free standing.
"Bespoke" often strikes me as a bit odd as it seems clear that the punters don't want to pay what it costs. I don't know why people submit themselves to this ordeal - making stuff you don't necessarily like for people who don't want to pay for it!


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

Didn't need to say a word


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## Emanuel (23 Feb 2016)

> You wouldn't attempt to compete with big manufacturers you would be looking for a niche which they don't cover too well. e.g. take IKEA designs (which is their strength)but make up-market versions (their stuff is tacky and cheap)


Even if you are not attempting to compete with them, they are in your market so you are competing automatically. Any firm that offers the same service as you do, to the same audience that you do, makes a competitor. 


> Web sites are dirt cheap - if the site is interesting and the product is any good there will be sales. "Optimising" a web site isn't a mysterious technical process it's about having an interesting site kept simple with plenty of relevant text on the front page. Content is king and text is essential as that's what search engines search for.


 You live in a perfect world, don't you?!
There's more to a business and to a product than being interesting and good - Your competitors can have the same product (or similar), as good as yours (maybe better) and at a better price that you can afford to sell it. Plus, they have built a brand name for themselves and people know about their products. You, on the other hand, will have to get to these customers and convince them that they should buy your product and not your competitors'.


> By all accounts on forums everywhere "bespoke" is a struggle - though there is a middle ground where adapting your product for a client might be worth looking at e.g. having a design which you can make to a clients desired size - more or less what fitted furniture is but can be free standing.
> "Bespoke" often strikes me as a bit odd as it seems clear that the punters don't want to pay what it costs. I don't know why people submit themselves to this ordeal - making stuff you don't necessarily like for people who don't want to pay for it!


Taking all of the things that I said before about having to compete with other firms which are bigger than you and have bigger pockets than you have, going on a niche from the market could be a strategy to use. Bespoke furniture could work if you have the means to create something that your customer wants, in good time and at a good price. This is something that bigger companies might not be able to offer as they are too big for this and it would mean turning everything around for a single product/customer - too much of a hassle for them to do it, so your advantage. You: 1 - Competition:0
Good luck, Paul!


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## doctor Bob (23 Feb 2016)

One thing is for definite, there are certainly plenty of people on here who can talk a good business.
I often think this little clip sums up a lot of people who offer business advice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawagQ6lLrA


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## Adam9453 (23 Feb 2016)

Reminds me of a few meetings I've been unfortunate enough to have to sit through.
At the start of the meeting I proposed the solution which solved the problem without any issue.
Everyone then offered their proposals which solved some or none of the problem and had various issues.
At the end of the meeting I re-stated my original proposal to which everyone now agreed was the way we should proceed.
We then had to discuss who was going to do it, when they were going to do it........
In the end I got so irritated with the procrastinating, I announced I needed to leave the meeting. I then started doing the work.
My colleagues were still in the meeting an hour later when I had done approximately 20% of the overall task.
Meetings can be great but if unchecked can be just as wasteful as discussing business on an internet forum lol


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

was that the popular peoples front of judea or the peoples front of judea or the popular front of judea?


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

Adam9453":2ll8lynr said:


> Meetings can be great but if unchecked can be just as wasteful as discussing business on an internet forum lol



thats ok its only my future


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## AJB Temple (23 Feb 2016)

There is an old adage that advice that you get for free is worth exactly what you pay for it. 

On-line marketing of anything at impulse purchase price point loses most of its traction if consumer cannot pay on-line straight away. So fix that too.


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

AJB Temple":1moem241 said:


> On-line marketing of anything at impulse purchase price point loses most of its traction if consumer cannot pay on-line straight away. So fix that too.



There are over 50 different ways to pay online PP and sage being the most popular in this country, which is prob what ill use as they are known and trusted.


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

Jacob":3qp96qk8 said:


> Emanuel":3qp96qk8 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...


You wouldn't attempt to compete with big manufacturers you would be looking for a niche which they don't cover too well. e.g. take IKEA designs (which is their strength)but make up-market versions (their stuff is tacky and cheap)


> This sort of sums it up as my design philosophy maybe a little more sunday roast tad less meatballs perhaps


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## Zeddedhed (23 Feb 2016)

AJB Temple":1ytp51bm said:


> There is an old adage that advice that you get for free is worth exactly what you pay for it.



I believe that's a saying bandied around by business consultants to justify their ludicrous fees and constant suggestions of suicide-inducing team building exercises.

When I had my own company (construction) we were persuaded to appoint a firm of management consultants to assist us with planning for growth etc etc.

My partner and I sat through meeting after meeting listening to these two guys (both failed businessmen it turned out) talking incessantly in a language all of their own. When one analysed the content of these epic speeches it came down to: Increase revenue and reduce costs. - GENIUS!! We almost got conned out of £12,000 for the pleasure of their company.
They only started speaking english when we refused to pay.

We never did pay, but we gave them some advice - get your money up front.


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## Jacob (23 Feb 2016)

navypaul":27wzpfyd said:


> Jacob":27wzpfyd said:
> 
> 
> > Emanuel":27wzpfyd said:
> ...


Churlish to ask stupid questions and then take the p|ss out of the answers.

Can we see a photo or two of the products of your "design philosophy" or is it all in your imagination?


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## sawdust1 (23 Feb 2016)

I'm with jacob some pics would be nice, just to see what this venture is about, or are we discussing the best way to go about it when infact you have never made anything.


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

sawdust1":qqhuqtlc said:


> I'm with jacob some pics would be nice, just to see what this venture is about, or are we discussing the best way to go about it when infact you have never made anything.



im not sure how to take that, ordinarily id be insulted but you dont know me from the next so ill let it go. when its up and running you can look on my website but as a idea here is a half completed frame for my sofa its the basic shape unglued.

and a tv table i made when i only had a router and a circular saw (and 3 clamps) in a small garage its just under 6ft long, soft close draws. made from a old worktop.

this is pretty old stuff the other things will be up the end of the year/beginning of next hopefully.


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## Wuffles (23 Feb 2016)

navypaul":3bgz8bu7 said:


> sawdust1":3bgz8bu7 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with jacob some pics would be nice, just to see what this venture is about, or are we discussing the best way to go about it when infact you have never made anything.
> ...



I like the worktop made TV stand. Looks lovely. Had any sag issues on the top? 6ft span with only the ends supported seems long or is there some KFC special herbs and spices in there...or physics again, damn physics.


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

Emanuel":3unk2z5q said:


> .....
> 
> Then, are you "comfortable" to compete with the big manufacturers and suppliers?


[/quote]You wouldn't attempt to compete with big manufacturers you would be looking for a niche which they don't cover too well. e.g. take IKEA designs (which is their strength)but make up-market versions (their stuff is tacky and cheap)


> This sort of sums it up as my design philosophy maybe a little more sunday roast tad less meatballs perhaps


[/quote]
Churlish to ask stupid questions and then take the p|ss out of the answers.

Can we see a photo or two of the products of your "design philosophy" or is it all in your imagination?[/quote]

ok whats a stupid question and whose taking the pineapple? are you saying i am asking stupid question and then taking the pineapple? if so then i REALLY want you to clarify as i agreed with you that it was sort of like ikea but a little less Scandinavian influence 

i really cant see your argument for churlish remark.


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

Wuffles":3sshuecq said:


> I like the worktop made TV stand. Looks lovely. Had any sag issues on the top? 6ft span with only the ends supported seems long or is there some KFC special herbs and spices in there...or physics again, damn physics.



physics governs everything but this is just really strong im 15 stone and i can stand in it with little deflection the joints help just understanding where the forces are their magnitude and direction then you can decide on the best joint


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## doctor Bob (23 Feb 2016)

How do you intend to tackle the minefield of fire regulations which comes with upholstered furniture, such as your sofa?

I have to say, I think this thread is total overkill, I thought you had a range of furniture going into large scale production. It seems I have misread the situation. If you are going to make it just set up a generic ecommerce site and give it a go.
The pictures don't really give any indication of quality, except to say the first image looks like it is made from block top worktop, therefore I'm afraid to say it is no going to command a decent price, I'll speak honestly it looks cheap, if you make out of laminated wood you are competing against oak furniture village (no veneer in here) and the like, you don't stand a chance.

Your choice of materials is misjudged in my opinion if you want to portray a quality product, yes blocktops are solid but ugly.


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## Trigs (23 Feb 2016)

I would think simple, quickly repeatable designs would be the way to go at first. Make 4-5 items and get em up for sale wherever you can. One thing with online it can be difficult for your webpage to be found at first until people are regularly searching it. 

Normally I'd give you loads of grief for being a matelot, but I'll save it for another thread. Just go for it mate, sounds like you've made your mind up already and are looking for confirmation. Life's too short.

Per mare per teram 
Trigs


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

Trigs":2nchba44 said:


> Normally I'd give you loads of grief for being a matelot, but I'll save it for another thread. Just go for it mate, sounds like you've made your mind up already and are looking for confirmation. Life's too short.
> 
> Per mare per teram
> Trigs



!!!! grief for being the Queens Favourite?!?!?!? which one then pongo or even worse, crab? please dont say crab. you spelled matleot right so yr not army. oh the banter. i miss it talking to civvies.

just looking for advice thats all, lost of areas i am unfamiliar with. seemed to escalate a bit. your right its going ahead with some now direction form the posters. cheers guys.


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## Trigs (23 Feb 2016)

Even worse a Bootneck


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

doctor Bob":314fvrwl said:


> How do you intend to tackle the minefield of fire regulations which comes with upholstered furniture, such as your sofa?
> 
> I have to say, I think this thread is total overkill, I thought you had a range of furniture going into large scale production. It seems I have misread the situation. If you are going to make it just set up a generic ecommerce site and give it a go.
> The pictures don't really give any indication of quality, except to say the first image looks like it is made from block top worktop, therefore I'm afraid to say it is no going to command a decent price, I'll speak honestly it looks cheap, if you make out of laminated wood you are competing against oak furniture village (no veneer in here) and the like, you don't stand a chance.
> ...



fire regs aren't too bad ive dealt with them before 

im sorry if i misled anyone i never mentioned large scale anywhere and without reading through them i think i said in a few posts slow or small or something like that. it would be suicide to even attempt to start anything large scale with my experience which is why i wrote this thread in the first place.

There have been many who have given me food for thought and the info to point me in the direction i think i need to go. To them my thanks. 

you are right it is a worktop it was salvaged too, it is not something i would sell or attempt to market it was what was available back then. i fell in to a trap of feeling i need to justify my designs to someone and that p1ssed me off. the only person i need to justify or prove anything to is me (and my wife/boss) it was an old pic of something i made ages ago, its not the best quality but i had limitations then. i dont do it as a permanent job im an aircraft engineer, but this is where i want to. 

i dont use worktops except in my kitchen (and that one thing) i dont use veneers anywhere. the other things i have made are mostly tropicals. im doing it again, justifying. 

i thank you all for the advice and if you have the interest my site should be up in the new year, ultimately its the customers who decide.

regards
paul


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

Trigs":1zbv60g5 said:


> Even worse a Bootneck



my god yr a wannabe navy, id ask what section but opsec wont let me i work with you guys a lot in my job and mostly enjoy it. as we are sort of brothers i find it amazing the huge void between us (forces not actually) you do alot of our training and there is a huge comms barrier, funny at times.

higgi


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## Adam9453 (23 Feb 2016)

navypaul":1we135h6 said:


> Adam9453":1we135h6 said:
> 
> 
> > Meetings can be great but if unchecked can be just as wasteful as discussing business on an internet forum lol
> ...



Paul, please don't take my comment personally, it wasn't aimed at you. 
I have been interested in your posts because I think it's the aim for most of us part time woodworkers.
It's just there a few too many procrastinators spouting doom and gloom because they're afraid to try it themselves.
Those who have taken the plunge have offered great advice.
It all just seems to be getting rehashed and argued over now.
One thing I would say though is regardless of anything that has been said don't ever let a forum dictate your future to you. 
If you want to do it then just do it, you'll make mistakes but just try not to make the same mistakes twice.
Good luck and I sincerely hope you succeed.

Adam


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## navypaul (23 Feb 2016)

Adam9453":wgd6lbzy said:


> Meetings can be great but if unchecked can be just as wasteful as discussing business on an internet forum lol



thats ok its only my future[/quote]

Paul, please don't take my comment personally, it wasn't aimed at you. 
I have been interested in your posts because I think it's the aim for most of us part time woodworkers.
It's just there a few too many procrastinators spouting doom and gloom because they're afraid to try it themselves.
Those who have taken the plunge have offered great advice.
It all just seems to be getting rehashed and argued over now.
One thing I would say though is regardless of anything that has been said don't ever let a forum dictate your future to you. 
If you want to do it then just do it, you'll make mistakes but just try not to make the same mistakes twice.
Good luck and I sincerely hope you succeed.


cheers buddy 

honestly i didnt expect the reaction i got for this thread, i cant explain it, i wont call it negativity but there seems to be a lot of well you said it doom and gloom for want of a better term. dont get me wrong i got a lot of good info and you cant have good without the bad but there seemed to be more than i anticipated. 

yeah regardless only 2 ppl dictate my future none of them on here. i think your post got lost in translation which can happen with the written word i dont take it personally but your right it has taken a bit of a turn now. i hope others have got something from it also. 

thanks again 
paul
Adam[/quote]


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## Ali (24 Feb 2016)

Just go for it mate, as long as you don't lose the roof over your head or your marriage give it a shot. Life is too short for regrets.

8) 8) 8)


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## tomatwark (24 Feb 2016)

Paul

Read the regs for upholstered furniture before you start going done that route, the right materials and labelling etc.

I would also find out how much making upholstered furniture will push up your liability insurance up before you start, it may make upholstered stuff unprofitable at the start, until you have got yourself up and running with other furniture.

Don't rule out using veneered products, there is nothing wrong with them and if you are thinking along the lines tropical timbers a mix of veneer and solid is the usual way and has been for a couple of hundred years.

On thing I don't think has been raised, is pricing.

I know you intend to start up in your garage, but there are problems here, one is space, experience says you will quickly run out of it and also while your neighbours are tolerant with you woodworking as a hobby, they may not be so once you are working full time and into the evening to meet deadlines.

This means when you are working your selling prices out, you need to allow your prices to reflect the cost of business premises.

Others have said you do not need to register for VAT, this is correct, however as you are thinking of a web based business it may be worth thinking about, one because to the punter on the web it makes you look bigger and more credible, they don't know you form Adam and when you register your prices go up overnight and with no extra profit for you.

Then main reason for considering the cost of business premises and vat in you selling prices from the start is, when you need to expand, the pricing structure is based the correct overheads.

To suddenly have to put your prices up to cover expansion and vat could put you out of business over night.

Go for it, you are obviously keen, but keep and eye on the costs and if it is not working there is no shame in walking away.


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## Jacob (24 Feb 2016)

navypaul":smym45fd said:


> Emanuel":smym45fd said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



This sort of sums it up as my design philosophy maybe a little more sunday roast tad less meatballs perhaps


> Churlish to ask stupid questions and then take the p|ss out of the answers.
> 
> Can we see a photo or two of the products of your "design philosophy" or is it all in your imagination?
> 
> ...


Must be the way you say it then.


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## Emanuel (24 Feb 2016)

> you would be looking for a niche which they don't cover too well.


 =D>


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## AJB Temple (24 Feb 2016)

Paul

There is a lot of good advice here if you get rid of all the banter and fluff. As I may have said earlier I am not in the wood business, but I have built up to scale and sold several businesses in different fields (for example fourth party logistics, property development, and currently specialised financial services) so I have an idea of the challenges you face. Most people that I see discussing this kind of thing on forums are very focussed on making stuff. They enjoy the woodwork, they may well be skilled at it too. However, bear in mind that being good at woodwork is just a core attribute for your business. It will not succeed just because you a re a good woodworker (though it will certainly fail if you are not) - it will succeed because you have put the thought and planning into the other things that are essential. Your business plan must deal with with your route to market, distribution, financing working capital, a financial buffer and so on. Internet free consultancy (as on this thread) can only do so much - you must develop or find other business skills. 

I made a somewhat trite remark earlier in this thread about needing a payment mechanism for on-line sales and you responded that there are loads available. The point I was really making is that people make this assumption, but if you have never actually done e-commerce (I have) then it is not as easy to make work effectively as you might think. It will consume a lot of your time. You must spend time understanding how they work, when you will actually get your money, what it will cost you to set up, integrate and then run operationally, how you will deal with chargebacks and so on. Every facet of a proper scalable business needs planning. 

This of course depends on whether you are interested in developing a business, or just a replacement for a job. There is a big difference. Lots of people do the latter: they are self employed and earn something broadly similar to what they could make working for someone else, but have the risk and satisfaction of "being their own boss". This generates income but hardly ever accumulates capital value. If you want a business that will achieve value (and make you well off) then it must be scaleable. My perspective on business is to employ people to do the work, grow the business to scale and then sell it for its capital value and future growth potential that others think they can exploit or integrate. I am not interested in salary - I am interested in building up a business to sell, not products to sell. 

I make this point because it is crucial they you are clear form the outset what it is you are trying to achieve. To put it in context my uncle is a very skilled painter and decorator. He was also a college lecturer on this subject. He ran a business with his brother for 40 years and they sometimes had a few staff. He earned his living from it but when he wanted to retire the business was worthless. This is because it was all about him: he and his brother were always on the tools and once they were gone there was nothing of substance left. So be clear whether you are a carpenter or a businessman and choose your path. Good luck in any event.


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## RobinBHM (24 Feb 2016)

For marketing advise, esp website and SEO I joined UKbusiness forum where there are some very knowledgeable professionals that post. You will get robust opinions though, so be prepared. 

My biggest concern for your business model is whether people will buy furniture from a website rather than a showroom. Customers often have little capacity to appreciate dimensions and a website cant easily transfer the 'touch' sense (who doesnt go into a furniture store and run there hand over the a top and try the drawer. Market research in this area would be a good starting point. It woudl be great if there is a sufficient market as there is little to offer in the furniture market between Ikea, oak furniture land and the small studios in the Kings road and Chelsea. It seems a shame that Oak furniture land, SCS etc seem to operate like a second hand car showroom -constant sales and commission driven sales teams.

Best of luck with your venture. Stay on the forum for any construction advise. Avoid asking about sharpening (anything)!


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## Jacob (24 Feb 2016)

AJB Temple":me5j2ga1 said:


> ...he point I was really making is that people make this assumption, but if you have never actually done e-commerce (I have) then it is not as easy to make work effectively as you might think. It will consume a lot of your time. You must spend time understanding how they work, when you will actually get your money, what it will cost you to set up, integrate and then run operationally,....


Paypal is dead easy and the most convenient of all. All you need is an email address for your buyer, or to remember your password when you are the buyer. Don't even have to key in address or anything. Charges are not low, but probably well worth it.



> whether people will buy furniture from a website


Of course they will and it's booming massively. All the big stores do on-line as well. If in doubt you can always visit for a hands on experience and you have rights to return things.


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## wolfey (24 Feb 2016)

Very good post AJB Temple..... And as most of my career in the industry and its expansion have been down to "CHANCE HAPPENINGS" the above happened to me by chance, I built a company that exceled in one area of the industry and at its height was producing over 60% of it product for one major company. At this level you need to understand the difference between a "MAJOR" and an "INDEPENDENT" we was an independent on the higher end of the scale.
All my business advisers advised against having such a large part of the company dedicated to one firm, understanding that if they went bust we would be ruined over night. I ignored them largely out of greed and growth!!

We finally got to the point where the company stood to become a "MAJOR" and the investment required was well out of my comfort zone as was still rather young and uneducated to that level of business. The out come was that the MAJOR that we produced 60% of our product for bought us out. They took over the whole company including lease, machinery and staff and myself and my production manager left to set up in another field of interest in the industry.

Yet again something I never planned, I have now apprehensions of it happening again as I don't have the business knowledge on that end that AJB Temple has, or the interest.....I just do what I do in business because I get a kick out of the ups and downs and a drive to succeed.

I strive for personal success, not the money.... but the by product of success is money!!

For navypaul,

Having a better understanding of the direction you wish to take now I would advise...

Number 1, a moneyed market is a down to earth market.. Take a look at companies like THE LOLLIPOP SHOPPE where you will find 5k tables for sale alongside £300 tables. All by MAKERS due to the 8 week lead times.

Start simple by making say 3 items you are proud of and truly represent you as a maker, ideally a Table a Storage unit and a chair.
Then put them on a simple selling place like Etsy. Don't plan to make a fortune from them, simply money for more materials and new blades.
Also put them on a blog forum like "DEZEEN " magazine online, this can easily make you an over night "DESIGNER" it wont actually lead to much but when your website comes along you may have a small editorial from it you can put on there.

Lastly get a small exhibition stand at something like "100% design" Will cost 3.5-5k but here you will meet an array of high end interior designers, architects and most of all the Buyers from places like Lollipop Shoppe and Liberty London.

You will learn a lot as will be a slow and steady entrance to the makers industry and hopefully answer many questions to how you wish to move forward........But remember it is all about what you do and how you play those CHANCE HAPPENINGS.......

Best

Wolfey


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## Wuffles (24 Feb 2016)

Jacob":tpn3yr8m said:


> AJB Temple":tpn3yr8m said:
> 
> 
> > > whether people will buy furniture from a website
> ...



Has the OP factored this in? That'd be my worst nightmare as a "maker" - Oh I received this, but it's too woody, or whatever, can you collect please.

Forget that.


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## navypaul (24 Feb 2016)

AJB Temple":3g45vwnz said:


> Paul
> 
> There is a lot of good advice here if you get rid of all the banter and fluff. As I may have said earlier I am not in the wood business, but I have built up to scale and sold several businesses in different fields (for example fourth party logistics, property development, and currently specialised financial services) so I have an idea of the challenges you face. Most people that I see discussing this kind of thing on forums are very focussed on making stuff. They enjoy the woodwork, they may well be skilled at it too. However, bear in mind that being good at woodwork is just a core attribute for your business. It will not succeed just because you a re a good woodworker (though it will certainly fail if you are not) - it will succeed because you have put the thought and planning into the other things that are essential. Your business plan must deal with with your route to market, distribution, financing working capital, a financial buffer and so on. Internet free consultancy (as on this thread) can only do so much - you must develop or find other business skills.
> 
> ...



Very constructive post it's easy to overlook this aspect of it and concentrate on the here and now. I do want a business but I need to crawl before I walk can't even think about selling yet should it take off. the e commerce bit is something that I would probably leave to a specialist or at least get specific advice from a pro. there is a lot I need to do In most areas 

Regards


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## AJB Temple (24 Feb 2016)

Just picking up on things. I agree PayPal is easy (and expensive). It may very well suit the small business. You need to bear in mind that PayPal operates out of Luxembourg for financial regulation and is not in any sense the same as a UK bank. It loads protection in favour of buyers when disputes arise. If you can go to the trouble of set up, Sage Pay works quite well. We probably put about £5 million per annum of investment business (incoming) through it and it is OK. Personal experience is that older consumers are often still extremely wary of on-line funds transfer. 

I think the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is something of a game changer for e-commerce. You need to be clear about what rights the consumer has to cancel contracts and return goods without cost or penalty. Savvy consumers will utilise these rights to their advantage and in many ways this has increased the risk for sellers of on-line sales. This can be partially mitigated, but requires you to be smart in developing your terms of business and general business arrangements. As I said, I don't work in the wood game, but I do buy practically everything on-line. I recently bought tow oak kitchen stools with leather seats. Sold as being suitable for commercial use. I could not hope to make them for the price. One arrived damaged in that two oak rails had fractured tenon joints (one was actually badly made) at a leg. Supplier initially tried to make a fuss, demanded we pay for return etc. CRA 2015 is a killer in these circumstances. Credit card company immediately cancelled the transaction when I complained. Eventual outcome was that supplier provided another pair of chairs and I got to keep the old ones as the cost of them getting them back to HQ was too much for them. (Easy repair job for me). The reason I make this point is that you have four extra risks: product must be tough enough to withstand shipping / quality control is fundamental (or it comes back at your cost) / distributors damaging furniture can be a big problem and they will move heaven and earth to deny liability / so don't treat robust packaging as a trivial expense. Business planning again.

That said, I think e-commerce is fantastic and I encourage you to embrace it.


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## AJB Temple (24 Feb 2016)

On the point "can't even think about selling yet in case it takes off" actually sums up the difference in my attitude from yours. I don't even think about doing the business (excluding one off speculative deals) unless a) I think I can scale it and b) I have planned an exit route. Both attributes are fundamental to me. In essence this is because I see the business as my product, not what it actually does. I know this comes across as cold. If I could find a vocational thing that made me really happy and made me well off, then I would do that. I have always enjoyed making stuff, but I know perfectly well I can't really make much money from it so I do other things to pay the bills and have a workshop just for fun. Woodwork is more of a vocation for many small businesses and I respect that choice. The trade off tends to be lower income and other sacrifices. Don't be put off though - it is better to follow our dreams. But better still to try to make a business worth something as well.


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## lurker (24 Feb 2016)

Just a quick comment about Pay pal: I refuse to use this in any shape or form, so as a consumer if thats the sellers payment option they have lost me straight away. 
I don't think I'm the only one who thinks like this.


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## mind_the_goat (24 Feb 2016)

Interesting thread containing lots of advice from people sharing their own experiences, I think this will have been useful to people other than the OP. I do get a bit baffled by the people who seem to get offended by things said in what generally has been a rational and open discussion. A few of the replies appear to be personal attacks, why ?. consider that a rhetorical question, I don;t wish to send this discussion off on another direction. 
The 'issue' that really caught my attention was the discussion about high margins, I found this interesting because my partner who works in the outdoor education market recently attended an industry conference and came back with the feeling that many people in that industry struggling to keep going but struggle with the concept of charging more. I have no problem with someone making a living charging what they think is fair, in fact I have a lot respect for those people, but I also have respect for others who who take advantage of an opportunity. This is a very different thing to taking advantage of a customer. I don;t have quite so much respect for those who are supposedly happy with their own business and income but object to others who may be more ambitious. If a customer gets what they asked for at a price they agreed to, and were happy with, then everyone wins. If the customer in not happy they could have refused the quote, or negotiated. Maybe making this item enabled the company to employee another person, or give a bonus to the staff, or take his kids on holiday. Who are we to judge?. 
There are a lot threads on this subject, often someone finding some 'overpriced' 'low quality' item on ebay and moaning that's it's too expensive. I take a more positive message from these posts, I think maybe I could make a bit of money selling stuff, and maybe that's where this thread started.
Paul, I wish you luck, hope it works out for you.


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