# Planing, do you use pushbocks?



## OscarG (10 Apr 2017)

I'm struggling to get to grips with my Titan planer/thicknesser in planing mode. On a rough but flat bit of wood it seems to take wood off the beginning and end but not so much the middle, leaving the wood smooth but a bit thicker in the middle.

I didn't use the push blocks as ones supplied with machine have this hard plastic bottom that has the same grip as a wet bar of soap, so was using a big bit of wood on top to guide the wood I'm planing. I had assumed maybe lack of pushblocks and lack of sufficient downward pressure was reason for uneven planing but don't know if that's right?!

I was going to ask on here where to buy good push blocks but then stumbled across threads with much arguing over whether push blocks are bad practise/dangerous or not.

Now, my head is totally effed! 

I can see the value in pushsticks keeping your hands away from the cutters but how do you maintain downward pressure doing that?

How do you guys do it?


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Apr 2017)

Personally I use this style, with the rubber base which sticks really well. Steady but not too much both downward and forward moving pressure and keep the feed speed the same, also focus pressure on the outfeed side once enough wood has passed over the cutters.

In particular, I prefer the longer one at the top of the picture.


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## woodbrains (10 Apr 2017)

Hello,

Sounds to me like you have table misalignment problems. Push blocks won't solve that. Besides, planing doesn't require a great deal of downward pressure. If you consider a board with a slight arch in its length, pressing down to much will momentarily flatten it to the tables, which results in a board that remains arched!

I would check to see if the tables are parallel to each other before I looked at push blocks. Best practice says that push blocks are a poor idea anyway, as you can move your hands over the cutter block to use them, all be it with the block between. They can be handy if used correctly, but probably won't solve your problems.

Mike.


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## delboy47 (10 Apr 2017)

I tend to use pushblocks because my fingers have been nibbled a couple of time - not nice. I try to only put any downward pressure (but not a lot) on the outfeed table which meant I was pushong the rear end of the timber rather than on the top at the end. Hence the nibbles. So now its either a pushstick or push block but trying to ensure there is not much downward pressure. Pushblock on the outfeed end to maintain some pressure.


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## shed9 (10 Apr 2017)

Push blocks with pressure on the out feed with enough pressure to keep the board flat, nothing more.

I also wax the tables frequently as this helps a lot.


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## dzj (10 Apr 2017)

woodbrains":3shoe6yi said:


> Hello,
> 
> Sounds to me like you have table misalignment problems. Push blocks won't solve that. Besides, planing doesn't require a great deal of downward pressure. If you consider a board with a slight arch in its length, pressing down to much will momentarily flatten it to the tables, which results in a board that remains arched!
> 
> ...


+1


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## RobinBHM (10 Apr 2017)

Tables not parallel or fault with technique.

Feed inwards with light pressure, enough to keep wood moving. Once work is emerging on outfeed side keep feeding hand over hand on outfeed table only.

Assuming wood is say thin and wide like a 150 x 20 section, set bridge guard with a small gap of less then 1 finger thickness and set to cover whole blade. 

When edging a 150 x 20, lower guard to table and push across leaving 5mm from the timber.


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## OscarG (11 Apr 2017)

Cheers guys, I'll give it another go. So to check alignment of tables would you simply use a spirit level on each one? 

Sorry if this seems a daft question.

While researching the safety of planing/jointing yesterday I ended up on a bit of a youtube journey, examples of kickback, accidents etc

One guy in comments, said he wanted to cut a nylon rope but was too lazy to get a knife so used his table saw... (oh it gets worse!) he stands rope taut in each hand and brings it back to the blade, the blade grabs hold of the rope and yanks him forward, apart from a dislocated arm suffered no damage to his hands! How's that for stupid?!


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## wallace (12 Apr 2017)

The tables should be co planer, the outfeed table should be the tiniest fraction lower than the knives, the infeed should be set lower than the knives depending how much you want to remove


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## furnman (23 Apr 2017)

USING PUSH STICKS OR PADS IS DANGEROUS !!!!

This is a very bad idea and bad practice , sadly to much watching american youtube gives people the wrong idea, you should just use your bare hands in conjunction with a properly set bridge guard , as the bridge guard always covers the cutter block , your hands just flow over the top along the piece of timber, this gives good safe control of the timber. HSE ban the use of them.
I am sorry to say but I just really worry about people's safety .


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## murrmac (23 Apr 2017)

furnman":za60ukz0 said:


> USING PUSH STICKS OR PADS IS DANGEROUS !!!!
> 
> This is a very bad idea and bad practice , sadly to much watching american youtube gives people the wrong idea, you should just use your bare hands in conjunction with a properly set bridge guard , as the bridge guard always covers the cutter block , your hands just flow over the top along the piece of timber, this gives good safe control of the timber. HSE ban the use of them.
> I am sorry to say but I just really worry about people's safety .



I have no idea how you come by the notion that HSE ban the use of push blocks.

On the contrary, the usage of push blocks is in fact advised, especially when machining shorter workpieces.

Here is a snip from the relevant HSE regulations.


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## furnman (23 Apr 2017)

They are talking about a push block which has a lip at the end, they are different to the ones shown in orbital bobs photo which are just pads, and these are what I am talking about. Using this type means passing your hands over the cutter block without protection and moving the bridge guard out of the way. A push stick is just a piece of wood. The americans use these pads with their pork chop guard running over the block and IMO are dangerous. It just worries me people using these pad type things.


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## custard (23 Apr 2017)

Before even getting into the question of push blocks, make sure the planer tables are properly waxed/lubricated and that the knives are sharp. If these two things aren't done then you can find yourself having to push the workpiece quite hard to make progress, which in turn leaves you liable to slipping and jamming your fingers into the cutters. Blunt knives also tend to lift the workpiece, on thinner workpieces in particular you can see it "fluttering", so you're then trying to apply counteracting downward pressure really close to the cutter block.

In commercial workshops it's relatively rare to see push sticks or blocks being used on a planer. Rare but not unknown. When edge planing I'll sometimes use push sticks as the cutter block is uncovered and with shallow or angled components it's the only way to keep fingers a respectable distance away from danger. That's my practise, but they're your fingers so you're the one who needs to feel confident about your workshop practises!


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## LancsRick (23 Apr 2017)

I'm not quite sure what you mean furnman if I'm honest. The guard should be moved sideways to allow the workpiece to pass, and the pads just give you enough surface friction to be able to push the piece along without running the risk of dropping your fingertips into the blade at the last point. Or are we talking about different things here?

To the OP, you've had the most likely (and easiest to check options) - check tables for parallel, give them a wipe with machine wax, don't push down hard on the workpiece.


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## memzey (23 Apr 2017)

I don't use push sticks or blocks but then again I never use my P/T without the guard properly in place either. In addition to the good advice on sharpness and waxed tables given by Custard above, I have to say that the way you use the planer should keep your hands clear anyway; essentially I only feed the stock into the cutter block from the in feed table until enough of the stock has passed over the knives for me to be able to push from the out feed side. This means my hands are pushing away from the sharp spinny bits for almost all of my planing, thus reducing the risk of accidentally pushing fingers through the block significantly. 

Reading that back it seems as though my ability to write easily understandable English seems to have deserted me but I hope you get my point nonetheless!


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## woodbloke65 (24 Apr 2017)

custard":2jp8qasv said:


> Before even getting into the question of push blocks, make sure the planer tables are properly waxed/lubricated and that the knives are sharp. If these two things aren't done then you can find yourself having to push the workpiece quite hard to make progress, which in turn leaves you liable to slipping and jamming your fingers into the cutters. Blunt knives also tend to lift the workpiece, on thinner workpieces in particular you can see it "fluttering", so you're then trying to apply counteracting downward pressure really close to the cutter block.
> 
> In commercial workshops it's relatively rare to see push sticks or blocks being used on a planer. Rare but not unknown. When edge planing I'll sometimes use push sticks as the cutter block is uncovered and with shallow or angled components it's the only way to keep fingers a respectable distance away from danger. That's my practise, but they're your fingers so you're the one who needs to feel confident about your workshop practises!


Agreed. I sometimes (but not often) use a proper push block (not like the ones illustrated by the OP) and push sticks for edge planing if the job is quite small. For larger pieces when edge planing it's not necessary to use push sticks, but all of the cutter block should be covered by the guard - Rob


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## Jacob (25 Apr 2017)

I think push blocks are potentially dangerous as your hand and arm go over the TS or planer blade at the end of the stroke and you have to reach further. Exactly the opposite with push sticks - you get extended reach, safely out of the way. 
One push stick in each hand every time (almost). You get used to it and it gives you much better control than hands alone.


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## garethharvey (25 Apr 2017)

dzj":2zr7tfof said:


> woodbrains":2zr7tfof said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...



+2


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## memzey (25 Apr 2017)

Jacob":3pxwxcns said:


> I think push blocks are potentially dangerous as your hand and arm go over the TS or planer blade at the end of the stroke and you have to reach further. Exactly the opposite with push sticks - you get extended reach, safely out of the way.
> One push stick in each hand every time (almost). You get used to it and it gives you much better control than hands alone.


Welcome back Jacob!


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## ColeyS1 (26 Apr 2017)

Don't think it's been mentioned, but I wonder if timber length may have anything to do with people using push stick/blocks ? I personally don't use them, but it's very rare i plane stuff shorter than 600mm. Bits this length or shorter, I get ultra cautious with topping and tailing- so perhaps an aid may be useful in that instance ?
Any thing over 600mm ish, I've never found any reason to need additional help (other than rollers on really long stuff) Hands are always out the way. Probably more controversial is I choose to wear sticky gloves. I really struggle gripping things. Before wearing gloves, I had a few close calls with my hands slipping on the wood surface and going towards the cutters. Even with correct guarding, it was still concerning. Judging by the wear and tear the gloves get (mainly fingers wear out first) I personally think I'm safer wearing them- I guess time will tell if I made the right decision. 
Coley


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":25qtq7sm said:


> Don't think it's been mentioned, but I wonder if timber length may have anything to do with people using push stick/blocks ? I personally don't use them, but it's very rare i plane stuff shorter than 600mm. Bits this length or shorter, I get ultra cautious with topping and tailing- so perhaps an aid may be useful in that instance ?
> Any thing over 600mm ish, I've never found any reason to need additional help (other than rollers on really long stuff) Hands are always out the way. Probably more controversial is I choose to wear sticky gloves. I really struggle gripping things. Before wearing gloves, I had a few close calls with my hands slipping on the wood surface and going towards the cutters. Even with correct guarding, it was still concerning. Judging by the wear and tear the gloves get (mainly fingers wear out first) I personally think I'm safer wearing them- I guess time will tell if I made the right decision.
> Coley


It's the end of the workpiece passing and uncovering the cutter or blade, where push sticks are most essential, however large the workpiece.
Gloves are good - not for protection obviously, but for better grip, which is a safety measure in itself.

PS also you can (if you must) plane ridiculously short pieces of wood with the aid of push sticks. Kickback becomes an issue but with small pieces this isn't much of a hazard.


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## ColeyS1 (26 Apr 2017)

Thanks Jacob, I'll keep wearing my gloves then. I think the push stick discussion is crying out for a quick video of them being used to help demonstrate.
Goes without saying, good to see you back posting again.
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## sploo (26 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":ygg2ryeo said:


> Thanks Jacob, I'll keep wearing my gloves then. I think the push stick discussion is crying out for a quick video of them being used to help demonstrate.
> Goes without saying, good to see you back posting again.
> Coley
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


Having seen someone get a sleeve caught in a planer (fortunately no serious injury occurred) I'm very nervous about any sort of material near machinery. I wear thin surgical rubber gloves when using some finishing chemicals on the lathe, as they tear as soon as you look at them, but I'd personally be wary of "proper" gloves near a planer blade.


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## MrDavidRoberts (26 Apr 2017)

OP your outfeed table is out of alignment...rarely ever they come from factory as they should.

I rarely ever use a pushstick ( only if the piece is very small)
Full long boards - it would be a hazard to use a pushstick!
Just use common sense and a full face shield when planing + no long sleeves,
Use pushsticks only if the piece is small or not very long.


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## Jacob (26 Apr 2017)

MrDavidRoberts":3rps9vs2 said:


> ....
> I rarely ever use a pushstick ( only if the piece is very small)
> Full long boards - it would be a hazard to use a pushstick!........


I'd hold the board in and down with the left hand push stick and use the right hand stick as the end approaches the cutters/blade so that my hands are always well away from the cutters. No hazard whatsoever - quite the opposite, and a good level of control.


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## jimmy rivers (26 Apr 2017)

I use a hand made push block, shaped a bit like a hand plane with a long notch, only for small skinny bits up against the fence with JUST the necessary amount of knife exposed

...tho 98% of the time I use those £1 orange grippy gloves...available from most sheds and pound shops.

Jim


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## MrDavidRoberts (26 Apr 2017)

Jacob":e4c3zyhy said:


> MrDavidRoberts":e4c3zyhy said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



Even if the board is 3-4m long?  heck even a 2m... you can't hold that kinda of size down with a pushstick...


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2017)

MrDavidRoberts":11ng4yii said:


> Jacob":11ng4yii said:
> 
> 
> > MrDavidRoberts":11ng4yii said:
> ...


Why not?
In reality if you are planing much over 2.1m lengths on a typical planer with a shorter bed, then you are going to have problems anyway. But where you hand comes into contact it might as well be through a push stick. The birds-mouth shape works just like a hand with the fingers curled and thumb vertically - put your knuckles on the table edge with your thumb pushing against the edge and you'll see what I mean.


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## ColeyS1 (27 Apr 2017)

Any chance you could do a really quick video please Jacob ?
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (27 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":28d9pbir said:


> Any chance you could do a really quick video please Jacob ?
> Coley
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


I'll do some snaps sometime.
But if anybody wants to know how to use them just buy a couple of the Axminster pattern and start using them. You'd soon get the idea and you'd soon not want to be without them.


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## sploo (27 Apr 2017)

Jacob":28bg2jhc said:


> ColeyS1":28bg2jhc said:
> 
> 
> > Any chance you could do a really quick video please Jacob ?
> ...


Being serious - planer techniques would be useful. I have a tiny hobby sized planer and I'm aware my technique with it isn't great. I'm sure with a large bed life would be much easier, as anything over about 1m length becomes quite hard to control smoothly.


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## LBCarpentry (27 Apr 2017)

Interesting one about using push sticks on a P/T. I think it's down to personal preference. I feel I only have full control if using my bare hands. If planing wide boards I'm more than happy to run my hands over the cutter block with the board between. As others have said - a well waxed surface and sharp blades are key.


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## sploo (27 Apr 2017)

LBCarpentry":3kwn7pll said:


> Interesting one about using push sticks on a P/T. I think it's down to personal preference. I feel I only have full control if using my bare hands. If planing wide boards I'm more than happy to run my hands over the cutter block with the board between. As others have said - a well waxed surface and sharp blades are key.


I'd never do that with a planer or table saw... but then I'm sure I've done it a few times with a router table. Familiarity breeds contempt I guess. The likelihood of an injury whilst pushing a wide board over a planer is probably vanishingly small, but it would make me very uneasy.


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2017)

sploo":1r7occbq said:


> LBCarpentry":1r7occbq said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting one about using push sticks on a P/T. I think it's down to personal preference. I feel I only have full control if using my bare hands. If planing wide boards I'm more than happy to run my hands over the cutter block with the board between. As others have said - a well waxed surface and sharp blades are key.
> ...


it's the edges. 
Push a board in towards the fence and part of your hand at the board edge drops towards the cutter level. Push a board past the cutter at the end of a cut and ditto. 
Push-stick in each hand and almost no risk - and better control, not least because you don't have to worry about cutting yourself, also a longer reach, also you can flip the board or offcuts away from the cutters before you bring your hands down onto them.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Apr 2017)

Jacob":2gw4g2zh said:


> ColeyS1":2gw4g2zh said:
> 
> 
> > Any chance you could do a really quick video please Jacob ?
> ...



Thanks Jacob. I've got two of those push sticks on the table saw, for smaller bits. 
It's using them on the planer that slightly baffles me. 
Say I've got an 8ft length. Right hand is under the end holding it up, so should the push stick be in the left hand pushing down ? Once it balances, do you then change to both push sticks ? I'm not doubting you, just can't quite picture the process of using them. In a month or so, I've probably got 2-3 days of planer thicknessing. It'd be a good opportunity to try the push stick method.
Thanks
Coley 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## ColeyS1 (28 Apr 2017)

sploo":2yzgcht0 said:


> LBCarpentry":2yzgcht0 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting one about using push sticks on a P/T. I think it's down to personal preference. I feel I only have full control if using my bare hands. If planing wide boards I'm more than happy to run my hands over the cutter block with the board between. As others have said - a well waxed surface and sharp blades are key.
> ...


Wait till you have a loose knot in the middle of a board [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH] -That was a butt clenching day !

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## LBCarpentry (28 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":lz2pn6jy said:


> sploo":lz2pn6jy said:
> 
> 
> > LBCarpentry":lz2pn6jy said:
> ...



:lol: that i am very aware of! you only need witness it once. That and having knots at the end of a board - like they're loaded with dynamite!


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":3g7xf3z7 said:


> Jacob":3g7xf3z7 said:
> 
> 
> > ColeyS1":3g7xf3z7 said:
> ...


I can't really choreograph moves to cover every eventuality but basically I'd have push sticks always in reach and often in hand, changing as necessary, using one or both when there's the slightest risk of getting too close to the cutters. Or rather - only _not _using them when it is completely unnecessary.
8 ft length is relatively unusual for planing unless you do a lot of doors - most stuff is shorter, so I'd look at it on a piece by piece basis!
But once you get into the habit it starts making sense.


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## memzey (28 Apr 2017)

It does make sense for edge jointing the way Jacob now described it. I'll give it a go next time I have some edges to true. Seems a bit unnecessary for face jointing though, when the bridge guard completely covers the cutter block anyway?


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2017)

memzey":enk9mxyt said:


> It does make sense for edge jointing the way Jacob now described it. I'll give it a go next time I have some edges to true. Seems a bit unnecessary for face jointing though, when the bridge guard completely covers the cutter block anyway?


It'll cause ructions to say this - but face planing with push sticks you set the face guard just to the side to cover the unused part of the blade. This means (for shorter pieces at least) you can do a pass in one easy sweep without having to change hands or stop at the guard, but your fingers are well out of harms way for the whole process.


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## Peter Sefton (28 Apr 2017)

Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber but my personal advice is try not to surface anything less than 400mm long. 

If a trainer advised someone to use the planer in the way being advised by Jacob they may be liable if an accident were to happen. In industry we need to work within ACOP's and safe systems of work, working in your own workshop means you don't have to follow HSE advice but they do recommend techniques for reasons.

We have been here several times before :roll: 

Cheers Peter


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## memzey (28 Apr 2017)

Hmmm. I've got a big old Sedgwick MB and the thought of that 4" block spinning while exposed to that degree is a bit terrifying to be honest. I feel perfectly safe and in control with my current method for face planing but I think I will give edge jointing with the push sticks a go - has to be push sticks of this pattern for me though:




Can't get on with the other style as it feels like my hands are closer to the sharp spinny bits than they need to be.


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2017)

Peter Sefton":r1gtzllb said:


> Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber .....


They are wrong. Push blocks are dangerous (hands too near the cutters and reaching over etc). Push sticks are much safer.


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## Nelsun (28 Apr 2017)

Popcorn time  I'm just jealous as I have no room for a planer and regularly knacker my aging wrists flattening and jointing things with a number 5.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## ColeyS1 (28 Apr 2017)

Are there any YouTube videos of people doing it this way? It's something I think I need to be shown, before deciding if I should try it or not.


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## stuartpaul (28 Apr 2017)

Jacob":22cifrcs said:


> Peter Sefton":22cifrcs said:
> 
> 
> > Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber .....
> ...


So there you have it, - either follow what Jacob says/does or you can follow what the HSE say as the enforcers/advisers on H&S within the UK.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf

I know which one I'll follow.


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## sploo (28 Apr 2017)

stuartpaul":yhri5b7p said:


> Jacob":yhri5b7p said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Sefton":yhri5b7p said:
> ...


I'm absolutely in agreement of safe practices. The bit I struggle with is illustrated by the following section from the doc above: "When flatting, the workpiece should be fed by pressure with the right hand, the left hand holding it down initially on the infeed table. As soon as there is enough timber on the out­feed table, the left hand can pass safely over the bridge guard to apply pressure on the out­feed table and will be followed by the right hand to complete the feeding operation"

The act of moving a hand across (from the in-feed to the out-feed side) naturally results in a change in pressure on the stock, and for me it usually leads to a visible defect on the cut face.

I've seen a video (maybe of Peter) walking his fingers over the guard (heel of the hand was maybe still on the stock on the in-feed side). Is that the way to do it (to maintain even pressure, but never have your hand touching the stock over the blade)?


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## memzey (28 Apr 2017)

That passage essentially describes exactly how I do it. I apply pressure on the out feed side as soon as I can. I've never encountered any defects arising from that technique (not to say it doesn't happen, just not to me yet).


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## Peter Sefton (28 Apr 2017)

Spool the transfer of pressure from the indeed to outfield table is one of the trickier things to learn and I feel even more difficult to achieve with push blocks (or push sticks).

You maybe referring to this video, I would usually lift my hands further away from the bridge guard and never run them over the block when edging but this was an exceptional piece of very expensive piece of timber!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2017)

sploo":3j9soz62 said:


> stuartpaul":3j9soz62 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3j9soz62 said:
> ...


That advice is good if you are taking a fine shaving from a piece of curly maple as per the video 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw
but most of us aren't doing anything so special, most of the time. 
If that was a piece of redwood (for a panel etc?) the push stick method comes into it's own - guard set to the side, left hand push stick in the middle of the board, right hand push stick at the end, hands always 10" or so away from the cutters - and safer than the method in the vid. That hands-close-on method should be reserved only for when unavoidable.

"Spool the transfer of pressure from the indeed to outfield table is one of the trickier things to learn and I feel even more difficult to achieve with push blocks (or push sticks)." Is in fact very easy with push sticks - with shortish piece it's one very safe smooth movement with no fiddling about.


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## Sgian Dubh (28 Apr 2017)

Jacob":3i8x15oc said:


> If that was a piece of redwood (for a panel etc?) the push stick method comes into it's own - guard set to the side, left hand push stick in the middle of the board, right hand push stick at the end, hands always 10" or so away from the cutters - and safer than the method in the vid. That hands-close-on method should be reserved only for when unavoidable.


Jacob, I must admit I've read you recommend your surface planer and push stick methodology perhaps dozens or even scores of times in several threads. I can't recall ever seeing anyone using it as a normal operating procedure. I see the method demonstrated in Peter Sefton's video used on a daily basis by both professional and amateur woodworkers, and I use (and taught probably three or four hundred learners) essentially the same methodology as Peter demonstrated. Peter's methodology applies to probably 99% of all surfacing and edging operations on a surface planer, whether the piece being surfaced is short (400 mm or so), long, contains awkward grain, shows pommelle figure, striped figure, crotch, or whatever - the other 1% of times a different methodology might be appropriate are rather specialised and a push stick might have a use in some cases.

I think you're going to have to eventually accept that your surface planer methodology is unusual, an outrider, outside the norm, an aberration, or whatever anyone might like to call it. I certainly would never adopt your technique as a 'normal' method for surfacing (or flatting) and edging, and I can't really see anyone else in our industry taking it on either, especially as no-one is taught it in any apprentice programme or training programme at any level that I'm aware of. Nor does it correspond with advice or guidance from the HSE, who show a recommended technique for standard surfacing and edging that closely matches what Peter demonstrated in his video, with exceptions for other operations such as rebating, dealing with short pieces, and for bevelling (where there are instances of push sticks finding a use. 

Evidently the push stick methodology works for you, but it's not something I've ever demonstrated or recommended to anyone I have ever taught, nor will I ever teach it. Slainte.


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## Jacob (28 Apr 2017)

Sgian Dubh":9tgfrnwo said:


> ...
> 
> I think you're going to have to eventually accept that your surface planer methodology is unusual, an outrider, outside the norm, ...


No prob - already accepted! 
NB it works and is very safe. Begs the question - what on earth do people do with those push sticks if it isn't something along the lines of what I'm describing?


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## sploo (28 Apr 2017)

Peter Sefton":39bbsjed said:


> Spool the transfer of pressure from the indeed to outfield table is one of the trickier things to learn and I feel even more difficult to achieve with push blocks (or push sticks).
> 
> You maybe referring to this video, I would usually lift my hands further away from the bridge guard and never run them over the block when edging but this was an exceptional piece of very expensive piece of timber!
> 
> ...


That's exactly the video I was thinking of - thanks Peter.

OK - so it looks to me as though you start with mostly pressure with the right hand, and relatively little with the left hand? I see you do completely lift the left hand over the guard (so I'm assuming you're not going from heavy left hand pressure to no left hand pressure in a short space of time).

I assume you finish with mostly left hand pressure on the outfeed side?

It does occur to me that it should be possible to do the same technique using push blocks. Maybe push sticks too, but perhaps harder due to having to apply pressure over a smaller area.

Question is: for a longer piece of stock, I assume you'd start with the same technique, and then stay with both hands on the outfeed side, pushing the board along hand-over-hand to get a smooth movement?

The issue I find with my planer is that changes in feed rate will show up on the cut surface. It is a tiny/cheap one though, and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some flex in the tables.


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## sploo (28 Apr 2017)

Jacob":2pacdolx said:


> Sgian Dubh":2pacdolx said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


I use them on the table saw


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## LancsRick (28 Apr 2017)

There seems to be a lot of fear in here about machinery rather than a healthy respect and sensible working practice. Hands on the piece or hands on pushblocks are both safe ways to do this activity, the planer isn't going to suddenly swallow the whole thickness of the piece. 
Ref push sticks, they are great on table saws or even band saws in some situations, where in addition to the sticks giving you clearance, the machinery is exerting a downwards force on the workpiece.


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## Noel (28 Apr 2017)

Interesting thread, never used p/sticks on a jointer but willing to try it out. I generally use form blocks or hands on the timber.
One thing I do dislike is the bridge guard. I don't like lifting my hands over it, much prefer to in total control of the work piece and therefore I only have it over the exposed portion of the blade. Tried a kidney guard once and much better, will replace the bridge guard with one at some stage.


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

Noel":2ovqlce1 said:


> .....
> One thing I do dislike is the bridge guard. I don't like lifting my hands over it, much prefer to in total control of the work piece ....


Well yes it's a bit of a stumbling block. You don't need it over the workpiece if you use push sticks - just over the unused part of the cutters.
Depends on size etc, but often with push sticks you can pass the workpiece over in one steady motion without having to change hand position; better control, longer reach and much safer.
I've been calling it the axminster pattern but it's an old design and often copied. 
The birds-mouth give downward pressure too, like a push block. Maybe it should be renamed to distinguish it from any old stick. 
Not stick, not block, howabout "Push Stock"?



LancsRick":2ovqlce1 said:


> ..... the planer isn't going to suddenly swallow the whole thickness of the piece.
> ........


That isn't the problem. It's more that a hand too near the edge or the end of a piece might be lowered onto the cutters, particularly if there's a slip, or a grab at a piece to stop it kicking back, or just sheer inattention.


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## RogerS (29 Apr 2017)

Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

RogerS":l7qt3989 said:


> Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?


Difficult one Roger.
If someone advised you to go and jump in a river would you ; a. follow this advice. b. hold them legally responsible for the consequences? :lol: 

Seriously though; we are (mostly) grown ups having a discussion about safety. Personally I think push blocks are unsafe. Where's that vid of the fat Yank who nearly loses fingers whilst using push blocks?


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## Random Orbital Bob (29 Apr 2017)

RogerS":21p1ao4a said:


> Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?



Wonder what the _moral_ position is for the forum when any member spends most of their posting energy trying to trap/bait one particular individual?


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## Peter Sefton (29 Apr 2017)

RogerS":14k5rqry said:


> Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?




I think the number one priority of the most popular UK woodworking forum should be to promote safe working practices for it's members and discourage dangerous ones, I am afraid to say this doesn't seem to be the case.


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

Peter Sefton":3q9f1skj said:


> RogerS":3q9f1skj said:
> 
> 
> > Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?
> ...


Please show how and why my offerings over "Push Stocks" are dangerous?


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## ColeyS1 (29 Apr 2017)

Jacob":3fpje16t said:


> Peter Sefton":3fpje16t said:
> 
> 
> > RogerS":3fpje16t said:
> ...


Jacob without seeing a video of them being used,or how you use them, I'm inclined to think it's unsafe and can't recommend it.
I had a piece of 165x90 oak about 18 inches long to plane up this morning. I tried the two push stick method you suggested and it was downright fkin terrifying. The push sticks just didn't seem to hold it aswell as a pair of hands.
Till I see an actual video of you doing it several times, I won't be trying it again. I'd say there's more chance of a push stick flipping out, then a hand suddenly deciding to skit over the wood.
I'm always open to trying new things and your knowledge of woodworking is obviously tried and tested over many years. Without you demonstrating how it's done, I really don't think you should carry on suggesting it- someone's gonna have an accident.
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":tuhykw9g said:


> Jacob":tuhykw9g said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Sefton":tuhykw9g said:
> ...


Don't do it if you don't want to. I'm not looking for converts or trying to sell anything!

What sort of push sticks were you trying to use? I'm only suggesting the Axminster type (or copies thereof in ply, mdf etc) and I can't imagine how you could make them 'flip' out or find anything terrifying happening. Flip out of what?


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## ColeyS1 (29 Apr 2017)

Jacob":3uc4fmol said:


> ColeyS1":3uc4fmol said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob":3uc4fmol said:
> ...


I just wanted to know if I could make the process safer and as effective than it already is.









Have I mentioned a video would explain things so much easier ??????- come onnnnnnnn, please.
My advice- keep your two push sticks for bandsaw and table saw use ! (Unless you can show me otherwise) Those blade motions automatically push the wood down. The whole purpose of a planer is to apply pressure where it's needed to straighten boards. Having two chopsticks can't have as much control as an entire hand. Safer perhaps, but then it'd be even safer if I just used a broom stick :lol: 
Fed up of hearing about it now tbh.
Coley


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

Try the axminster type if you can be bothered. They are better designed than they look. Yours look all wrong, though I suppose you'd get used to them.
PS getting used to them is important. I don't know about you but everything I've ever learnt to do in woodwork didn't go at all well the first few times. Still struggling on some fronts!


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## Peter Sefton (29 Apr 2017)

sploo":mzlibuso said:


> Peter Sefton":mzlibuso said:
> 
> 
> > Spool the transfer of pressure from the indeed to outfield table is one of the trickier things to learn and I feel even more difficult to achieve with push blocks (or push sticks).
> ...



Spool 

The technique for planing longer stock is much the same as short stock but you have the advantage of keeping your hands further away from the cutter block and bridge guard. Start with both hands on the timber on the infeed table and then move one of your hands onto the outfield table when you have sufficient timber to safely hold 200mm (8") for instance, or more depending on how long your long timber and beds are. Then move your other hand over the bridge guard to help (walk) your timber through the rest of the cut. Consistent pressure and feed speed can't be taught on a forum.

Always use the bridge guard and set as close as reasonably possible, the 74 Regs stated 12mm but now I advise 10mm. Do not remove the guard and replace it with a boomerang guard as the Americans have. When surfacing never have your hand above the cutter block without the bridge guard in-between, when edging always lift your hand off the timber and over the cutter block. If you keep your above the cutter's and you get kickback your hand will find the cutter block.

If you get your timber straight and square you can use the thicknesses to improve your poor quality surfaced finish at a later stage. Once you have parallel straight thicknessed timber, just flip it end to end and thickness off your face side to improve your finish. Also ensure you have sharp cutters, using blunt tooling is much more dangerous.

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

Peter Sefton":3jd82wi8 said:


> ........
> Spool
> .........r


The main difference with using "Push Stocks" as I now call them is that you don't need the guard _over_ the workpiece as your hands aren't going anywhere near the cutters at any point. So you have a clear through movement with minimal changes of hand position and a longer reach. The possibility of an accident is extremely low - you'd have to have a fainting fit or get hit on the head! Other than that the worst that can happen is that if your pressure via the push stocks isn't sufficient, or in the right place, then you might get a dodgy surface finish, or a touch of kick back - which on a planer never amounts to anything much (unlike a TS).
Still waiting to hear what the risk is.


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## Woody2Shoes (29 Apr 2017)

I write as a self-taught (taught primarily by reading/viewing stuff on the internet) amateur. Some time ago I hurt myself quite badly with a 2kW router in a router table - I ended up having a finger sewn back together in the hospital that made its name fixing up WW2 fighter pilots. Hearing the sound of parts of my finger hitting the router table fence is something I will never forget. My learning from this incident is:

1) Even if your conscious mind is telling you "keep your body parts well away from that rotating cutter", your unconscious mind doesn't follow logic.

2) When your unconscious mind cuts in e.g. the workpiece slips/moves/jumps in some unexpected way and you instinctively reach out to correct/compensate, the only way to stay safe is if there is a 'guaranteed' physical barrier between your bits and the rotating cutter.

3) If I had been an employee (rather than an enthusiastic amateur), my employer would have got himself into all sorts of legal hot water, as a result of my accident, for allowing me to work with a set-up not so different from what you can see on a huge number of amateur Youtube videos.

I will never again use any powered machinery which does not at all times have some mechanical barrier between my body parts and the rotating cutter(s) bits.

Jacob's technique may or may not be like trying to eat a Mars bar with a chopstick in each hand, but, to me, it has the significant flaw that there is no mechanical barrier between soft flesh and hard, sharp rotating metal (besides a stick of course).

I wholeheartedly support efforts to promulgate safe working in woodworking and I think that there is a lot of material out on the internet which is leading people into unsafe territory.

Cheers, W2S


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## ColeyS1 (29 Apr 2017)

Jacob, I've never really understood why people get annoyed with you, until now. I've had the utmost respect for you till this thread. You could kill the thread with just one quick video demonstrating how to use your method. Your video could teach how ever many people that watch it, how to do it safer. Instead you seem happier just provoking arguments from people. Did we join this forum to help each other or what ?
You've lost a supporter, not that it'll bother you.


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

Woody2Shoes":2vosvop4 said:


> ......
> 2) When your unconscious mind cuts in e.g. the workpiece slips/moves/jumps in some unexpected way and you instinctively reach out to correct/compensate, the only way to stay safe is if there is a 'guaranteed' physical barrier between your bits and the rotating cutter.......


That's a very good point. I've had one or two near misses over the years and it's the emergency 'grab' which seemed most often the cause. I've kind of conditioned myself to do the opposite - if it's going wrong then hands-up back-off immediately. If it's going to kick back let it fly, or let it spoil the workpiece rather than your fingers. Like patting a dog which starts growling - hands off instantly!


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":1b17u1r9 said:


> .....You could kill the thread with just one quick video .....


Haven't got the kit. I'll try a photo or two - I've just dug out a tripod.


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

Photos. Caution, Push Stocks in operation
2 new ones, 2 copies. Best copied from ply or mdf which won't snatch or splinter if nipped - they just get trimmed instead.Or trimmed on purpose to hold a thin board etc. Good to have a handful of copies always handy near the machines. NB they are consumables - you don't bother about getting a bit trimmed off.
Planer not particularly sharp or bed waxed. No preparation at all. Still does a reasonable job including on a bit of manky sycamore.
I can't believe I'm the only person in the universe who uses this simple reliable and very safe method.
I am not happy when I read of accidents like woody2shoes above - accidents are very easy to avoid and our so-called safety advisers need to get up to speed on this one.
I vary the holding of course, depends on the workpiece - sometimes hands on and/or other guarding, is best.
The birdsmouth allows a very variable pressure from vertical to horizontal and you can choose where to apply it. Long pieces you can walk push stocks past each other so it's always being held down.
It's a very easy and stress free method and the extra reach means less moving about and/or leaning over.
I've been doing it so long this way that I feel nervous if my hands are closer than a push stock length from the cutters. 






Random pieces of wood from the workshop floor






Just checking - are these photos oversized I can't be bothered to go through them sizing each one? I will if you can't read them.


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## Noel (29 Apr 2017)

Tried earlier today with a couple of push sticks and they work well, certainly for the random stock I was using.
They won't suit all sizes of timber but was quite impressed. Hands miles away from the cutter head and good pressure on the stock where needed.
I prefer the bridge guard away from the fence. If I get a chance may do a vid later.


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

A shorter bridge guard would be handy so that one could have it away from the fence as you have, but not sticking out as you walk the workpiece past.


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## Noel (29 Apr 2017)

Jacob":139696o4 said:


> A shorter bridge guard would be handy so that one could have it away from the fence as you have, but not sticking out as you walk the workpiece past.



Indeed.


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## ColeyS1 (29 Apr 2017)

Jacob":18slndyd said:


> Photos. Caution, Push Stocks in operation
> 2 new ones, 2 copies. Best copied from ply or mdf which won't snatch or splinter if nipped - they just get trimmed instead.Or trimmed on purpose to hold a thin board etc. Good to have a handful of copies always handy near the machines. NB they are consumables - you don't bother about getting a bit trimmed off.
> Planer not particularly sharp or bed waxed. No preparation at all. Still does a reasonable job including on a bit of manky sycamore.
> I can't believe I'm the only person in the universe who uses this simple reliable and very safe method.
> ...



Much appreciated Jacob. That's how I was trying to do it, it just seemed very unnatural and awkward.
I think with anything longer than 4ft, I'd be more concerned about balancing the wood with the sticks, instead of trying to straighten it out. I had a piece of timber the other day that springs to mind. It was a fairly twisted and bowed door stile. I had to rock the board on the planer bed to try and find a happy medium so I could still maintain the thickness. The downfall with the push stick method, is the pressures always being applied to the left when planing a twisty board. Maybe not a problem if you've got plenty of thickness spare. Ideally pressure somewhere in the middle would stand a better chance of straightening it out, without losing masses of thickness.

I appreciate you taking the time to photograph it- if that's what you're comfortable with then all good. I just hope you never trip up and have your hand/head land near the exposed cutter block though. 
I gave your push stick method ago, so reckon you should try not using push sticks sometime. Perhaps try planing some 4ft hard twisty stuff or some 8ft + lengths using both methods. 
Short bits I'm just wary of full stop. Push sticks do look safer than hands in that instance, but I'd be afraid of the timber tipping in the cutter block, and spitting it back more than anything.I probably just pass it underneath several times till it was smooth.
Thanks Jacob  
Coley


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## Jacob (29 Apr 2017)

ColeyS1":2ybkxr49 said:


> Much appreciated Jacob. That's how I was trying to do it, it just seemed very unnatural and awkward.


it would at first. After a bit it becomes utterly natural. nb kick back isn't much of a prob with a planer - it doesn't have the 'throw' like a TS blade


> The downfall with the push stick method, is the pressures always being applied to the left when planing a twisty board.


No you can press down with the push stock in the middle of the board or anywhere. It's really handy for bendy boards doing it convex face down - you put the stick on top in the middle for the whole pass. One stick pushing from the end - the other holding down and pushing in towards the fence by friction


> I gave your push stick method ago, so reckon you should try not using push sticks sometime.


I do both and all varieties in between, but use sticks wherever possible.

It also works really well with a TS and spindle (if you don't have power feed). And with router table I expect - though I've never used one.

I'm quite pleased to be explaining this as I've been plugging it for a long time and it's very likely that a few nasty cuts have been avoided somewhere or other, though we will never know.


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## Jacob (30 Apr 2017)

With longer pieces the 'push stocks' also enable you safely and firmly to hold down the very end as it goes over the cutters. Otherwise difficult to do hands only as your hands have to be on the outfeed side pressing down and pulling at the same time.
With very very long pieces an outfeed roller is necessary, but the sticks still help at the end.

With very short pieces such as per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw the sticks really help (see my photos above). You can float the board over the cutters in one easy movement, firmly held down, no change of hand position required, no leaning over and stretching, hands well away from the cutters at every stage. 
Peter misses another trick in that he isn't using the fence. Pushing the workpiece up to the fence helps steady it. Not easy if you are having to attempt that clumsy 'spooling' to get you past the guard! Impossible with an even shorter piece as the guard would cover so much of it there'd be no room for your hands.

Yes the cutters are exposed with my method, but your hands are always well away. Unless you get really seriously distracted or pushed from behind it's extremely improbable that you would touch them accidentally - anymore than you would accidentally stick your hands in a fire. No doubt this does happen - but very rarely! There is never zero risk with these things.

PS talking of risks - I made a mistake in my workshop; I used up some left over Osmo oil and linseed oil on the chipboard floor. It's very tough but also very slippy. I've got to do a non slip finish somehow. Another big hazard in a busy shop is machine left switched on, or running down still spinning. If it's noisy all around or if you are deaf you may not notice.


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## Random Orbital Bob (30 Apr 2017)

I think for the benefit of any new woodworkers reviewing this or folks new to using planar/thicknessers, it should be made very clear that it is NOT advisable to surface plane short lengths of timber. The problem is insufficient material to get a grip of which forces hands and fingers to get too close to the blades.

I appreciate Jacob is a strong advocate of a technique he has developed but we need to draw attention to the fact that Jacob has been practicing for a great many years and has a huge amount of experience around and respect for sharp, fast moving edges. He is comfortable with the risk he is taking, I would be very very very very very uncomfortable with someone even close to new in this field trying this method with short lengths.

No disrespect to Jacob because as I say, it clearly works for him. But lets please have some balance and understanding of the potential threat to less experienced folk who may innocently stumble into this thread.


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## Random Orbital Bob (30 Apr 2017)

I might be feeling a little sensitive on the issue of operator error and/or health and safety in general after yesterday when I sustained a painful removing of my fingerprint on one finger.







Skilfully managed to "sand" that off on a belt sander while trying to thin an oak washer for the screw chuck. "Silly boy" (or words to that effect) was what I thought to myself as the blood spattered the tool.
So can you imagine the damage you're going to do to yourself if your fingers hit the block in a planar? My brother can...he planed the tops of his fingers off on his left hand. The physiotherapy to get the numbness gone once the stumps had healed took 18 months.
Don't want to be maudlin.....just saying......is it worth it....the price a noob might pay....to "experiment". It's great fun...until it happens....joke sort of wears a bit thin after that!


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## RogerS (30 Apr 2017)

Random Orbital Bob":951ml57f said:


> RogerS":951ml57f said:
> 
> 
> > Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?
> ...



No idea. Perhaps if you did a bit more research before jumping in with your post then you will see that I haven't responded to Jacob in a long time simply because life is too short. However I DO value the UKW forum and would hate to see anything happen to it as a result of unsafe working practices being promoted and resulting in an injury to a member followed by Ambulance-chasing lawyers having a go at UKW.


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## Random Orbital Bob (30 Apr 2017)

I'm touched by your altruism Roger!


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## Jacob (30 Apr 2017)

It's not as though I'm promoting a high risk strategy. I'm doing exactly the opposite; I'm saying be MORE cautious and take extra measures over and above the official advice from the safety 'experts'. Keep your hands FURTHER away than they suggest.
You keep your fingers and eventually, as a surprise bonus you find the work much easier to do.


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## Random Orbital Bob (30 Apr 2017)

I appreciate YOU believe that Jacob....but the method you describe is just not for a beginner, in theory, because flesh is further away from the blades, it has the allure of being safer. But...and it's a big but....in order to become skilled at it takes practice and understanding, if a new woodworker read your piece and thought...hey ho, I'll just clean up this bit of 6 inch material, with push sticks, what can possibly go wrong!!!

Surely, even Mr "Stubborn" can appreciate that some techniques are simply not for a beginner "despite" their safety claims. I would couch your method in the following terms:

The generally accepted practice for surface planing is documented in the HSE guidelines and for beginners they would be wise to follow such advice since they have been hard earned after examining the true causes behind many industrial accidents. For those with more experience and practice, the amount of personal risk you take is your decision and the consequences are your responsibility.

I use push sticks all the time on my bandsaw and TS and I wouldn't be without them. But I remember how "goofy" they felt on the first few times. I just wouldn't want a newbie to have to learn the "hard way" with a planar because of the experience I have with my brother. 

I will try your planing method just to get some first hand experience of it because I'm always open to new ideas and just because the accepted working methods don't include it, doesn't mean it's bad....but on balance...for a newbie....I'm erring with the body of professional evidence on this one simply because, what if you're wrong?


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## ColeyS1 (30 Apr 2017)

As much as I don't wish to poke the bear, to summarise I think the push stick method hasv got over a problem that doesn't exist with correct guarding in place. It should be nigh on impossible to stick a hand in the cutter block.
Exposing the cutter block like in the picture creates it's own set of issues on its own. Trip hazard, hand goes in- ya fked. 
I've got excellent extraction for the planer, I've also got a visor that covers my face. Topping and tailing I still get chips that bounce off the visor, very rarely still, I get bits that go under the visor and hit the skin. No guarding at all I'd imagine even more could be thrown out.
Learning to use the push stick method, would have to be that I couldn't use adequate guarding to start with.
I think you have been very fortunate if when you plane up a piece of timber all you have needed to do is push it from the infeed to the outfeed- that again possibly falls back to my mention of planing short lengths. Probably eight times out of ten I can just push a board right over the top, then carry straight on and edge it. But quite often I'll have to plane humps and bumps off part way along a board before I consider taking a full length shaving. Same with longish bowed boards. I'll have to use my right hand to raise the board off the end, then have a few passes getting near the middle, then turn and repeat




Excuse rough sketch (waiting for the rain to stop in the car) 
The sketches look extreme but sapele over 2 metres in length and 63 mm thick (some times looks more like 68mm) quite often needs juggling, lifting spinning etc to get them straight.
I think my old foreman would have been a great fan of push sticks. He was the quickest person ever on the planer. So longs he could hear a full length shaving coming off, and it looked smooth, that was it- job done as far as he was concerned [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
Coley


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## Jacob (30 Apr 2017)

Coley - you do what's best for you and yes there isn't just one way. I don't use sticks every time either.


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## ColeyS1 (30 Apr 2017)

Push sticks are safer than hands, when surfacing dangerously short pieces of timber.


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## Random Orbital Bob (30 Apr 2017)

I think the point was, not to surface plane dangerously small pieces of timber


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## ColeyS1 (30 Apr 2017)

Random Orbital Bob":7nxygqoz said:


> I think the point was, not to surface plane dangerously small pieces of timber


I agree. 
Coley


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## Jacob (1 May 2017)

Here's yer mad man showing the danger of kick back, with warnings not to try this at home etc. Don't worry I won't! . 
More importantly - what he's really showing is the danger of push blocks. When the kick back occurs he comes very close to losing a finger. If he'd done the same thing with push sticks he would have had better control and would only have risked losing a bit of push stick.
Look how close his fingers/knuckles are to the cutters. Scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4


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## Peter Sefton (1 May 2017)

Jacob":2fxnrw0q said:


> Here's yer mad man showing the danger of kick back, with warnings not to try this at home etc. Don't worry I won't! .
> More importantly - what he's really showing is the danger of push blocks. When the kick back occurs he comes very close to losing a finger. If he'd done the same thing with push sticks he would have had better control and would only have risked losing a bit of push stick.
> Look how close his fingers/knuckles are to the cutters. Scary.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4



Lets play spot the difference


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## Jacob (1 May 2017)

Peter Sefton":1ob90lpk said:


> Jacob":1ob90lpk said:
> 
> 
> > Here's yer mad man showing the danger of kick back, with warnings not to try this at home etc. Don't worry I won't! .
> ...


If you mean spot the difference with my photo demo above, the differences in my demo are;
1 I'm using a planer, inherently much safer kit than a TS. Surprised you hadn't noticed!
2 no kick back involved. You can get a tiny bit of kick back with a planer but it just doesn't have the throw of a TS and is not really a hazard as long as your fingers are out of the way (i.e not using push blocks and avoiding hands on where possible) though you can spoil a workpiece.
3 Fingers well away from the cutters at all times - no danger of losing a finger

So if you want to get up to speed with safety and push sticks - get the habit safely with a planer before you have a go with a more hazardous TS


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## Peter Sefton (1 May 2017)

And what are the simulates between the video and your use of the planer Jacob?


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## Jacob (1 May 2017)

Peter Sefton":1lusyod9 said:


> And what are the simulates between the video and your use of the planer Jacob?


Do you mean simularities?

What is it you are struggling to say? I think I can guess. Why not just say it? :lol:


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## ColeyS1 (1 May 2017)

We're discussing using push sticks on a planer, you're referring to using them on a table saw - different subject, different thread.


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## woodbrains (1 May 2017)

Hello,

If the use of push sticks on a surface planer means the bridge guard has to be moved aside, exposing lots of cutter block, then it is completely against HSE directives and should not be advised as a 'safe' technique. Do as you like in your own workshop, but those things should never be shared, only best practice please.

I have never used push sticks on the surface planer, you can't if the bridge guard is in the correct position. I have never had an accident on the planer and always plane successfully. I'm not sure why they are needed.

Mike.


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## Jacob (1 May 2017)

The same applies to using push blocks - the bridge guard has to be moved aside. You can't have it both ways and neither can the regulations - which recommend push blocks for short lengths apparently.

This is going around in circles. I'm saying push blocks are dangerous, push sticks (of the standard pattern) much less so.
Nobody has suggested otherwise so I presume we are all in agreement.


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## ColeyS1 (1 May 2017)

If you work on your tod in a workshop, then yeah it's your decision. If you've got other people in the same vicinity, probably having an exposed cutter block isn't the best idea. Your shoelaces may be done up tightly, who's to say everybody else's is. 
If there's any doubt whether a piece of wood is too short to surface- just push it through underneath if you really have to use it. No need for push sticks or surfacing at all then. Take light passes with the thicknesser, a mm or so at a time, flip it over several times and I'm sure it'll be straight enough.
Within reason, the longer the piece of wood being planed the better. For example, if I'm making some French doors, the two top rails will be planed up as one piece- chop it in half after.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (1 May 2017)

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf

They recommend push blocks with the guard pulled back. They also recommend a push sticks but with a tunnel guard - at least they show one in use but no mention in the text. 
They aren't very clear or comprehensive at all - they are clearly 'advisory' as there are many alternative set ups, designs of push block/stick etc. of which they make no mention.
They don't at all deprecate push sticks with the guard pulled back so my method is perfectly OK as far as these regs are concerned. They recommend using a guard "to give the optimum degree of protection" which doesn't always mean right across - as they show in various drawings.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/l114.pdf

Here they are similarly non specific. They show a design for a push stick. It's not very good but there is no objection to using a better design of push stick, nor to using push sticks in place of push block and keeping your hands _further away_ than their recommendations.

Funny how my simple, safe and perfectly legit suggestions have caused such a panic (amongst the usual suspects :lol: !)


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## Sgian Dubh (1 May 2017)

Jacob":8bd23dcd said:


> Funny how my simple, safe and perfectly legit suggestions have caused such a panic (amongst the usual suspects :lol: !)


Your suggestions aren't causing me to panic Jacob. I'll simply ignore your advice regarding this technique, as usual. I'll continue surfacing and edging in the conventional manner (hand over hand with a correctly set bridge guard appropriate to the process), and whenever it's required I'll continue to pass on those conventional techniques to learners. Yes, there are times when the standard hand feeding technique can't be used, but there are strategies to deal with those occasions, with some common suggestions for coping at those times provided at the HSE website you linked to. Slainte.


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## powertools (1 May 2017)

From what i have taken the time to read this thread is loudricous. The so called experts are using big industrial machinery and some of us are using much smaller machines in my case a Kity 535 and what is safe to do is very different.


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## Jacob (1 May 2017)

Sgian Dubh":1nlib8du said:


> Jacob":1nlib8du said:
> 
> 
> > ..... I'll simply ignore your advice regarding this technique, as usual.....


Please do! 
I hate to think I might be distracting people from their comfortable and old familiar ways but I was merely attempting to answer the OPs question. 
My answer (in case anybody has missed it) was no. Alternative suggestions clearly were a bit disturbing for many.


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## MrTeroo (1 May 2017)

The persistent debate troll
This type of troll loves a good argument. They can take a great, thoroughly researched and fact-based piece of content, and come at it from all opposing discussion angles to challenge its message. They believe they're right, and everyone else is wrong. You'll often also find them leaving long threads or arguments with other commenters in community comment sections, and they're always determined to have the last word -- continuing to comment until other users give up.


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## Sgian Dubh (1 May 2017)

powertools":ozm0f6j4 said:


> From what i have taken the time to read this thread is loudricous. The so called experts are using big industrial machinery and some of us are using much smaller machines in my case a Kity 535 and what is safe to do is very different.


If you're going to use a word like ludicrous I think I can get away with saying your comment is unadulterated twaddle. I have used everything from three phase heavy duty industrial planers with up to seven combined feet of infeed and outfeed tables happy to plough through stuff twenty inches wide to dinky single phase bench top planers made out of what appeared to be monkey metal no more than a couple of feet long and barely able to take the skin off a rice pudding: the basic approach to surfacing and edging at either end of the scale is essentially the same, and the only thing that changes is the size and weight of material that can be handled. What you're claiming is the equivalent of saying that the basic principles of hand plane use aren't the same for a no 4 smoothing plane as they are for a no 7 try plane, which is obviously not the case. Incidentally, your Kity 535 isn't the smallest planer I've seen or used. Slainte.


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## Noel (2 May 2017)

Why is the golden rule of "keep hands away from spinning blades" ignored for jointing operations? Pushing flat timber (as illustrated in an earlier video) with hands near the blades has many dangers, hands slip, sweaty palms on a shiny surface etc, etc. by lifting a hand off the stock to get over the bridge guard further reduces control. Guard or not, fingers can slip/move and hit the cutters. Push blocks, especially those with a lower edge/lip, push sticks etc surely make sense. In my view "traditional" and "conventional" methods aren't always the best.


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## Jacob (2 May 2017)

Peter Sefton":2go7bq2b said:


> Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber but my personal advice is try not to surface anything less than 400mm long.
> 
> If a trainer advised someone to use the planer in the way being advised by Jacob they may be liable if an accident were to happen. In industry we need to work within ACOP's and safe systems of work, working in your own workshop means you don't have to follow HSE advice but they do recommend techniques for reasons.
> 
> ...


I think what sent this thread off the rails was Peters' post here. 
He was wrong. 
Push sticks ARE 'approved' for use with a surface planer, thought they only show one way of using one, and they don't say it in so many words. They include a design for a push stick which isn't official or mandatory in any way, and in fact isn't very good IMHO.
The details they provide are very skimpy - it's more about general principles with just a few 'helpful' references to detailed procedures. 
Unfortunately this gives enormous scope for barrack room lawyers to tediously cluck away disapprovingly like nervous chickens* :lol: but the rules would be incredibly tedious, verging on the impossible, if every eventuality was covered in detail.

*it even brought Roger out from under his stone! :lol:


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## Jacob (2 May 2017)

powertools":sh02v3f9 said:


> From what i have taken the time to read this thread is loudricous. The so called experts are using big industrial machinery and some of us are using much smaller machines in my case a Kity 535 and what is safe to do is very different.


Not that different, large or small. 
The main thing is to keep your hands away from cutters. It's always possible to get it wrong as even with full guarding there has to be a slot to poke the wood in somewhere. People have been known to get their hands stuck in power feeds even!


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## ColeyS1 (2 May 2017)

If you discovered an amazing football player, would you teach him to lace up his boots properly, or make him wear stilts so he doesn't damage his feet [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Jacob (2 May 2017)

Noel":z44nx5ru said:


> Why is the golden rule of "keep hands away from spinning blades" ignored for jointing operations? Pushing flat timber (as illustrated in an earlier video) with hands near the blades has many dangers, hands slip, sweaty palms on a shiny surface etc, etc. by lifting a hand off the stock to get over the bridge guard further reduces control. Guard or not, fingers can slip/move and hit the cutters. Push blocks, especially those with a lower edge/lip, push sticks etc surely make sense. In my view "traditional" and "conventional" methods aren't always the best.


It's a bit of a failure in the docs. 
They are only advisory in many parts and sometimes the advice isn't too good; there's a TS illustration showing a bevel being cut in a classically dangerous way i.e. against the fence. This can result in the offcut getting jammed against the blade and slung out like a bolt from a crossbow. I've had this happen and it penetrated the plaster board opposite.
They show it with a thin fence on edge which reduces the risk to some extent, but many fences don't have this facility and there is nothing in the text.
Basically it's the wrong way to cut a bevel.
They also show a TS with an independently mounted guard - not attached to the american style riving knife. The crown guard on riving knife is a much safer option as this will prevent the workpiece lifting.

The general advice is good, the detail often lacking, slipshod and ill considered.


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## Peter Sefton (2 May 2017)

The problem is removing any physical barrier between you and the cutter block and push sticks don't get over this, push blocks do!!!

The rebating on the surface planer is a red herring, it has shaw guards over the cutter block (a physical barrier) also planner produced since 1995 are designed so you can't rebate on them and under the ACOP's if you had an accident in a commercial workshop rebating on a planer you would be liable for prosecution if you have access to either a router table or spindle moulder, this has been the case since 1998. 

Some people clearly need to keep up!

I would also advice not having trailing leads or trip hazards around the machines, I am sure Jacob lot his in place as a talking point  

Push blocks are safer than push sticks on the planer offering much better control and grip over the timber and they act as a physical barrier if the worst were to happen.

I don't condone the removal of guards but you can use plush blocks and bridge guards. This is how the Americans do it, these boomerang guards are also not approved in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uqFGp7V55Q

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (2 May 2017)

Peter Sefton":2znulpcf said:


> The problem is removing any physical barrier between you and the cutter block and push sticks don't get over this, push blocks do!!!
> 
> The rebating on the surface planer is a red herring, it has shaw guards over the cutter block (a physical barrier) also planner produced since 1995 are designed so you can't rebate on them and under the ACOP's if you had an accident in a commercial workshop rebating on a planer you would be liable for prosecution if you have access to either a router table or spindle moulder, this has been the case since 1998.
> 
> ...


Barrack room lawyers never sleep!
Push sticks take you completely and safely away from the cutter and give you better reach and control.
Push sticks aren't deprecated in any way, anywhere in the safety docs, and are recommended and demonstrated in various parts.
Push blocks take you close to the cutters and lead to having to over reach - as you do in you vid - almost stretching out full length on the planer bed! The advice here is not good - but it is only advice not an instruction - 'should' not 'must'.
Nobody condones the removal of guards but the regulations (and common sense) says you can set them back to allow the workpiece through.
You can use push sticks in place of push blocks, very obviously with much greater safety.

How long is this going to go on?


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## PAC1 (2 May 2017)

Jacob, I do not know if any one has ever said this to you but repeating the same argument does not make it correct. The method approved and recommended by the HSE for hand surface planing is set out here http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf. There is no mention of push sticks because they do not recommend there use. Contrast with the guidance for a table saw. Further they only recommend a push block for use with short lengths of timber (I prefer to hand plane short lengths of timber). 
As many have said, if you want to use two push sticks to surface plane that is a matter for you. But do not suggest that it is an approved method of surface planing. The guidance is very clear that people should be properly trained on the method for hand planing on a surface planer. If you want to change the approved method, go and talk to the HSE and come back to this thread only when they have approved the technique.


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## Jacob (2 May 2017)

PAC1":3e3g7dpa said:


> Jacob, I do not know if any one has ever said this to you but repeating the same argument does not make it correct.


It does if it is correct to start with.


> The method approved and recommended by the HSE for hand surface planing is set out here http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf. There is no mention of push sticks because they do not recommend there use. ....


If you bother to read the doc you will see that it does recommend push sticks and there is an illustration of one in use and a design for one (not a very good design). Nowhere does it deprecate the use of push sticks and there is nothing to suggest you should not use them for short lengths. The advice they give is just that; 'advice' on the sorts of safety measures you should employ, and not a mandatory instruction or a rule. Using push sticks instead of push blocks obviously fits the bill and is perfectly OK.
What they offer is not *THE* method but just *A* method. Nothing to say it can't be improved upon and made safer - there is no detail about their push blocks, they offer a helpful sketch of a push stick which isn't as good as the standard pattern I recommend.


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## Cheshirechappie (2 May 2017)

Just a note about how the HSE have arrived at their recommendations.

The history of 'factory safety' goes back to about 1802, when the first legislation about safety and working conditions in factories was passed. A significant move forward was made in 1844, when the first of the Factory Acts required any accident that resulted in death to be investigated by a local surgeon, it's cause established, and a report prepared and submitted to the Civil Service. Later acts extended this to accidents causing injury, and transferred responsibility to Factory Inspectors. Thus, a body of data of accidents, their causes and consequences, has been built up by the HSE's predecessors for about the last 150 years.

Analysis of that data has shown what cause the most accidents, and that has informed legislation about machinery and tooling design, guarding, operation and so on. Thus, riving knives and crown guards on tablesaws (for example) have been mandatory for many years. Spindle brakes are now mandatory on machinery, since it was found that most accidents tended to happen after switch-off while the machine was running down. Some tooling has been banned - French heads on spindle moulders, for example - as they contributed to a disproportionate number of accidents.

Thus, if the HSE recommend a particular method of work, it's because of collected experience from analysis of actual accidents at work over many years. It's most emphatically NOT abstract ideas from chair-polishers. They DO NOT make it up on the hoof.

Edit to correct a couple of dates, and add this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_Acts


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## Jacob (2 May 2017)

Cheshirechappie":37q59ekt said:


> ..
> Thus, if the HSE recommend a particular method of work, it's because of collected experience from analysis of actual accidents at work over many years. It's most emphatically NOT abstract ideas from chair-polishers. They DO NOT make it up on the hoof.
> 
> Edit to correct a couple of dates, and add this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_Acts


I've no doubt about their collected knowledge of accident data but I get the firm impression that they've passed the buck over the detailed safety recommendations (they are only recommendations) to some arbitrarily selected experts, who aren't actually that expert. Hence the anomalies and omissions.

Time to lock this thread? I've got nothing else to say - and neither has anybody else!


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## Cheshirechappie (2 May 2017)

Jacob":2rkqnf3g said:


> Cheshirechappie":2rkqnf3g said:
> 
> 
> > ..
> ...



Suggest you get in touch with them, and tell them they're wrong, in that case.

Don't be too surprised if they tell you that YOU'RE wrong, and produce a lot of evidence to prove it.


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## Peter Sefton (2 May 2017)

Yes we have got something to say, don't remove guards and try to work within the regulations they are there for good reason and update and improve your techniques as better information from a collective body comes forward.

Go off piste at your own risk.

Cheers Peter


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## Jacob (2 May 2017)

I don't remove guards or go off piste. Just ignoring and improving on some of the inadequate suggestions from HSE (where they are suggestions - not strict rules). Nothing I do (or recommend) contradicts or doesn't comply with the overall intentions. I operate with a higher level of safety than required by the regs.


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## Peter Sefton (2 May 2017)

Jacob":qh57q6gw said:


> I don't remove guards or go off piste. Just ignoring and improving on some of the inadequate suggestions from HSE (where they are suggestions - not strict rules). Nothing I do (or recommend) contradicts or doesn't comply with the overall intentions. I operate with a higher level of safety than required by the regs.



You have shown images of you planing with the guards pulled out of the way and exposing the cutters, this is not within regulations as you well know, they should be set as close as possibly (10mm) to protect the user and those in the vicinity.

Cheers Peter


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## Noel (2 May 2017)

Generally reluctant to close threads but I'm having the last word.
Norm says: Best advice on the topic is use your common sense, be sure to read, understand and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools PROPERLY will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury and wear eye and hearing protection.


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