# Fun with 'Y' levers.....



## woodbloke (23 May 2007)

One of the things that came out of our very enjoyable Microbash yesterday (that Philly couldn't get to but is coming to the next one  ) was the vexing question of 'Y' levers on Record and Stanley planes. There's no question that fitting a better blade, of whatever breed, makes a *huge *difference to the way the plane performs but, and here's the rub, they're generally *much* thicker than the standard offering and so the 'Y' lever barely engages on the CB. Here's a pic of Pauls' No4 which he's fitted with a 3.1mm iron and two-part chipbreaker. You can see that the top of the lever has been mangled where it's *just* engaging the CB:







The solution is quite straight forward and that's to silver solder a small lump of steel onto the top of the existing 'Y' lever, so here's a shot of the set up in the vice and you can see the little piece of silver solder:






Apply the heat from a gas torch and then.......DISASTER (but easily remedied Paul)......the Clifton 'Y' lever (which this is) is made from an alloy with a lower melting point than the Record 'Y' lever and the top, well....erm melted a bit. There is a quaint term that my dad used to use about describing softer mild steel but it's not for delicate ears or a mild disposition :lol: What I then did was to clean up the debris and soft-solder a piece of steel onto the top (using a large soldering iron and some 60/40 tin/lead solder) and the result is this:






This is the modified 'Y' lever shown against another one of Pauls' standard levers. When the new lever is put into the plane it no longer just catches but fully engages in the slot on the chipbreaker

,





..so a very useful and quite easy mod to do - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (23 May 2007)

Blimey, thanks Rob - that looks terrific. I was wondering what the Clifton 'Y' levers were made from :?  Fabulous job - thanks very much 8) 8) 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (23 May 2007)

I've just finished doing all the 'Y' levers that you left me (only takes about 10 mins to do and clean up).... can do some more on 09 Jun. Now I know what I'm doing :roll: it's a piece of cake. The material is unquestionably *not* very impressive, it seems to be very soft which is why it was getting mangled so easily in your No4....might be worth a word with Mike Hudson at Clifton to see if they can be cast from something a bit more _robust_.....coffee time now :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (23 May 2007)

Thanks a lot Rob - I'm really grateful to you for that. Yes, good idea about having a word with Mike Hudson. Next time I go to a show I will take up one of the modified levers and discuss it all with him - he's a nice bloke and always keen to get customer feedback.

Thanks again - hope its all helped in the process of clarifying your thoughts about which blade and cap iron combination to get for your refurbished Record #4.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Alf (23 May 2007)

Hmm, interesting stuff, Rob. I know it's wondering a trifle off-topic but I'm reminded; for those of us who were made to do Home Economics instead of something useful - where would I, er, _they_ find something like "Soldering for Twits". Or in my case "Soldering for the criminally inept"?  

Cheers, Alf


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## Nick W (23 May 2007)

Soldering and Brazing by Tubal Cain. Nexus Special Interests, Workshop Practice series. ISBN 0-85242-845-6


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## lurker (23 May 2007)

Alf,

The concepts are the same as home economics:

Everything must be got very clean before you start.
Ensure you reach & maintain the correct temperature (either electric or gas)
Don't get work too hot or things burn and are no good.
Wipe down all surfaces when you have finished


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## Alf (23 May 2007)

Yes but I failed Home Ec. :lol: 

Thanks Nick. I find it slightly worrying that it needs a whole book... 8-[

Cheers, Alf


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## woodbloke (23 May 2007)

Alf - wot Lurker said is basically correct, all surfaces clean and grease free, use a suitable heat source (soldering iron or gas torch), suitable flux (which keeps the metal from oxidising as the heat is applied) and a joining material (silver solder is probably the strongest after braze welding which needs requires an oxy-acet flame). Tin/lead solder used for electrical work has its own flux built into the solder but the stuff used for plumbing needs a separate paste flux, same sort of solder tho....show you how it's done on 09 Jun - Rob


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## lurker (23 May 2007)

Alf, it's simple once you have seen it done and had a go, a quick demo will put you right.

piece of cake really    Sorry just realised you failed HE :lol: :lol: - was there smart A***ed remarks about you burning cakes?? or did that handle evolve later? 

Rob, I was surprised to see that solder is strong enough & hard enough to do what you did.

Talking soldering & cooking - I nicked the SWMBOs brulee flame gun - nice small & hot flame


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## Nick W (23 May 2007)

Alf,

Son't worry, it is only a slim volume.


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## Alf (23 May 2007)

Ta muchly, Rob. Nick, sorry, being a bit facetious.


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## Philly (23 May 2007)

Just to ruin what's left of my reputation, I also have the book Nick recommended. Well worth the lettuce next time you want to top up an Axminster order...... :wink: 
Cheers
Philly


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## Nick W (24 May 2007)

Ah, but Phil, have you got the complete set? Now _*that's *_how to ruin a reputation. :lol:


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## Alf (24 May 2007)

That's how to fill a bookshelf - there are 39 of them, aren't there? :shock: :lol:


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## newt (24 May 2007)

When I was an apprentice we were shown how to weld and how to solder, it is one of those disciplines that you either take to quite quickly or never. It was quite sad to see keen young lads trying to do it but failing, either everything was to hot or not hot enough. Mind you there are soldered joints that are functional but look bad and those that are functional and look the dogs *******. I can tell you a story on the 9th but not on here.


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## Nick W (24 May 2007)

Alf":dg8fvttv said:


> That's how to fill a bookshelf - there are 39 of them, aren't there? :shock: :lol:


How would I know?  
Come to that, how do you know? :twisted:


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## Alf (24 May 2007)

Nick W":3mb5nv41 said:


> Alf":3mb5nv41 said:
> 
> 
> > That's how to fill a bookshelf - there are 39 of them, aren't there? :shock: :lol:
> ...


Erm... Ah... You see... Well actually I have a shameful secret. Yes, carefully quarantined from the woodworking bookmarks are the <gasp> _metalworking_ ones - this one amongst them.

I'm going to go and wash my mouth out with honest wood shavings now. 

Cheers, Alf


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## ivan (25 May 2007)

Wouldn't it be more elegant from an engineering point of view, to solder two ~3mm slips to the back of the cap iron, about 10mm sq., to drop into the blade's long slot? This also keps the length of the lever short, so the blade adjustment does not coarsen as a result of the modifcation. This method also allows modest adjustment of bladeEdge-to-adjuster length (greater with thicker iron)

Moreover, you can sucessfully bond them in place with (industrial) superglue (lasted 5 yrs so far, allows use of a 5mm blade)


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## MIGNAL (25 May 2007)

> Wouldn't it be more elegant from an engineering point of view, to solder two ~3mm slips to the back of the cap iron, about 10mm sq., to drop into the blade's long slot? This also keps the length of the lever short, so the blade adjustment does not coarsen as a result of the modifcation. This method also allows modest adjustment of bladeEdge-to-adjuster length (greater with thicker iron)



That is the method I used, fairly tricky trying to solder them especially as I had real trouble securing the pieces with copper tie wires. The Epoxy sounds easier.


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## woodbloke (25 May 2007)

ivan":2alv4yor said:


> Wouldn't it be more elegant from an engineering point of view, to solder two ~3mm slips to the back of the cap iron, about 10mm sq., to drop into the blade's long slot? This also keps the length of the lever short, so the blade adjustment does not coarsen as a result of the modifcation. This method also allows modest adjustment of bladeEdge-to-adjuster length (greater with thicker iron)
> 
> Moreover, you can sucessfully bond them in place with (industrial) superglue (lasted 5 yrs so far, allows use of a 5mm blade)



Problem with soldering or even silver soldering is finding a heat source big enough, normal gas torches probably wouldn't be big enough so gluing is a better solution, heat may aslo distort the CB which is a definate 'no no' - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (25 May 2007)

ivan":16w58omk said:


> Moreover, you can sucessfully bond them in place with (industrial) superglue (lasted 5 yrs so far, allows use of a 5mm blade)



Hi Ivan,

When you say 'industrial superglue', can you recommend a particular product and suggest where it is available from? Another point we were discussing at our bash was the backlash which you sometimes get where the other end of the 'Y' lever engages with the adjuster nut. One way to solve this would be to reduce the gap by fitting a brass washer. One could possibly do this by cutting the washer in half (because that would be the only way to get it on) and superglue the two halves in place.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## ivan (26 May 2007)

Paul, I was recommended Loctite 330 multibond - a 2 part cyanoacrylate/accelerator pack. I discussed what I wanted to do with the local Loctite distributor (bearing/transmission specialist from yellow pages). I was originally asking about bonding 2 plane blades together to experiment (you couldn't buy blades 4 or 5mm thick then) It did this OK, and I'm still using a double ironed* Stanley block plane, and modified clifton 2 part cap irons are still good. I had intended to reinforce the glue bond with 3mm csk setscrews, but never got round to it. Probably all fail next week!

330 is quite thick and somewhat gap filling, I would think one of the low viscosity versions could be better for small slips. Industrial 'superglues' are made for specific purposes, like bonding metals or rubber for making O rings etc. General purpose superglue may be OK, certaily for experimenting, but the proper stuff is intended to provide a lasting bond. Haven't checked, but there may be a selection guide at loctite.com

* samuai and original, anealed


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## Paul Chapman (26 May 2007)

Thanks, Ivan, that's very helpful.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## newt (26 May 2007)

Reference the issue of the slop with the Y piece in the adjusting knob. In a book I have it says try and bend forward or back just one one the Y arms. If this can be done (if it is cast steel probably not) it means that one arm touches the back face of the knob and the other the front face, hence no slop. And guess what, I looked at my new LN bronze No4 and that is exactly how it is configured. Paul I have PM'd you on another issue.


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## newt (30 May 2007)

I made a new Y lever out of brass for my old stanley No4. With the old Y lever it had 2.5 turns of back lash, it now has half a turn. Mind you it took a whole day on the milling machine, quite a complex shape.


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## woodbloke (30 May 2007)

Newt - look forward to seeing that on the 09 Jun, sounds interesting - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (30 May 2007)

Sounds cool, Newt 8) 8) 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## bugbear (31 May 2007)

woodbloke":u6514bku said:


> One of the things that came out of our very enjoyable Microbash yesterday (that Philly couldn't get to but is coming to the next one  ) was the vexing question of 'Y' levers on Record and Stanley planes. There's no question that fitting a better blade, of whatever breed, makes a *huge *difference to the way the plane performs but, and here's the rub, they're generally *much* thicker than the standard offering and so the 'Y' lever barely engages on the CB.



This has been discussed before; there are two ways around getting the Y to engage the cap-iron; bring the Y up or the cap down!

Here are both approaches, nicely done, written up and illustrated by Jarviser:

* cap iron DOWN
http://www.jarviser.co.uk/jarviser/backlash1.html

* Y lever UP
http://www.jarviser.co.uk/jarviser/tools1.html

Hmm. Since the Jeff Gorman "tabs" idea is on the cap iron, the vendors of after market blades who ALSO sell after market cap irons (e.g. Hock, LN) could (very...) usefully supply this form, eliminating the need for the 'umble woodworker to have brazing facilities.

BugBear


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## David C (16 Feb 2008)

BB,

Great links,

Thank you,

David

PS it has ocurred to me that this method could also be used to rescue a chipbreaker which is the "wrong length" for a particular plane.
I come across this more often than I would expect, and think it is due to CB/capirons getting swapped about or replaced by people who are not aware of the length issue.

Riveting also comes to mind as a further fixing posibility.

Also, I suspect that Mick at Clifton would probably be happy to supply longer Y levers for a small fee, and I wonder if they would fit after a little fettling? Clifton's blades are very thick.


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## Paul Chapman (16 Feb 2008)

David C":8w5mvplj said:


> Clifton's blades are very thick.



Hi David,

That's my Record #04 in the original post on this thread. Soldering an extra piece of metal to the Clifton 'Y' lever wasn't entirely successful because the metal used by Clifton for their 'Y' levers is quite soft (soldering works OK with the older Record 'Y' levers). The solution Rob came up with in the end was this:

A 2.3 mm hole was drilled in the 'Y' lever like this 







A piece of 3mm gauge plate was then drilled and joined to the 'Y' lever using industrial strength super glue and a piece of 2.3mm sprung steel






This is the finished job after cleaning up






And this is it fitted to the plane






I use that plane regularly and the modification has been completely successful.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## David C (16 Feb 2008)

Paul,

Another great solution ~;-)#

David


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## Digit (16 Feb 2008)

It must be the older planes then, here I must bare my soul and confess to being tight with money, like I haven't got any! So all my metal planes, bar one, are car boot purchases and they've all been fitted with irons from old wooden planes and the 'Y' levers all needed extending, so I built them up with weld and filed them to shape, nothing melted. 
Things ain't like they use to be! 
Alf, I took over a new dept in a factory once and had to teach 46 women to solder, only one failed to learn. It's one of those tasks that once you have acquired the skill you wonder what all the fuss was about.

Roy.


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## Chris Knight (16 Feb 2008)

David C":cp0kr5a0 said:


> Paul,
> 
> Another great solution ~;-)#
> 
> David



I guess you mean buy the Krenov and use that instead?


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## ivan (17 Feb 2008)

Looks more complicated than adding 2 mild steel slips to the back of the cap iron! Superglue works well for a trial. To avoid distortion through uneven heating forget brazing, drill tap and setscrew.

Modifying the Y lever can reduce adjustment sensitivity by about half. If the cap iron is intended to always be used with very thick blades, thick slips improve the sensitivity noticeably.


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## David C (17 Feb 2008)

Ivan,

Good thinking, re heat & brazing.

I was rather fancying some small rivets?

David


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## ivan (20 Feb 2008)

Would do very well! I'm old enough to remember when ironmongers stocked rivets (wonderful dark places; we had one, 4/fork (c)'andles style, as big as a department store when I was small) . Where do you get yours nowadays?

For this job I guess drill, shallow csk, and stub of ms rod (nail) would do, as per infill plane rivetting.


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## David C (20 Feb 2008)

Yes there was an ironmonger like that in Beaconsfield were I grew up, wonderful place.

When you asked for a dozen 5/8inch, number 5, contersunk head, brass screws, you automatically were given a couple of matching steel screws.

I have no good rivet supplier but might try model engineering suppliers like GLR ditributors. Any other ideas please?

Would also use short section of round nail.

best wishes,
David


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## woodbloke (21 Feb 2008)

This little modification wot I concocted does work quite well with the Clifton 'Y' levers which appear to be made from some sort of alloy only _slightly_ harder than soap. When the modification is filed it will work better if the lever is filed to the approximate shape of an involute gear tooth, in other words, _not_ parallel but slightly curved, a tiny dab of grease on bearing surfaces also helps. It's also is useful to relieve the underside of the rectangular slot with a needle file on the CB as well. The mod is not designed to remove the backlash from the adjustment wheel, it just serves to bring a bigger area of metal into contact with the CB slot which is not available without some sort of mod as the existing 'Y' lever is too short - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (21 Feb 2008)

Of course, if you want the ultimate 'Y' lever you can always do what Pete (Newt) did and machine one from solid brass........






Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## woodbloke (21 Feb 2008)

...which needs to be seen to be believed - Rob


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## David C (21 Feb 2008)

Fantastic work!


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