# Woodworking magazines



## knappers (6 Dec 2010)

With Christmas just around the corner, and gift lists being compiled... what woodworking mags do people buy / have a subscription to?

I sometimes buy "The Woodworker", as that's the only one carried by my local Sainsbury's, but it's a bit Mickey Mouse IMHO. I like "Fine Woodworking" and usually pick up lots of useful tips from it, but what else is good or worth the subscription fee? Does FW do international subscriptions?

Si.


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## The_Stig (6 Dec 2010)

We get British Woodworking which is a nice read along with the Timber Trade Journal.


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## Silverbirch (6 Dec 2010)

You can subscribe to the digital-only version of Fine Woodworking. It used to be good value for money in that format. Not sure about it currently.
I subscribed to Popular Woodworking for a year or two. It had some good content, but after a while I found it a bit earnest and the low key photo illustrations gave the magazine a rather sombre feel, which I came to find kind of depressing after a while.

Ian


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## brandy20 (6 Dec 2010)

I subscribed to Fine Woodworking three years ago and I'm happy with the magazine and the send it to Italy with no problems. I also did the subscription with the digital edition. If I had to choose I'd prefer the magazine because I keep it always in my shop. Anyway I think they both are a good choice.


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## Fromey (6 Dec 2010)

I subscribe to FW digital edition. It also gives you access to many back-issue articles, plus various videos and you can search for topics.

The only other one I'm interested in getting is Popular Woodworking, but so far I've not seen a physical copy it in the UK.

Personally, the way I've seen the dichotomy in the Internet wooodworking community, I think there'd be a good demand for a hand-tools only magazine.


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## tomatwark (6 Dec 2010)

Go onto the Fine Woodworking site and subscribe.

I have been getting it for lots of years now, with no probs

W H Smith stock it as well.

Tom


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## big soft moose (6 Dec 2010)

I had a subscription to BWW last year but i'm not renewing it as imo its gone down hill (the six pages on what pencil people use in this issue was the last straw).

I'm torn between subscribing to FWW and F&C - or just keeping my money in my pocket


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## knappers (6 Dec 2010)

I have a copy of the FW archive DVD, so may just go for the physical paper subscription.
Is the current issue available as a PDF download to digital members?
Si


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## Lons (6 Dec 2010)

I currently subscribe to Wood Carving and BWW (just arrived this morning as the damn post has been inoperative here for a week).
Won't take BWW again next time though as I frequently find it's only a 5 minute read  

Tend to browse the mags in WH Smith and buy one if it takes my fancy

Bob


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## Fromey (7 Dec 2010)

knappers":3v1k5k44 said:


> Is the current issue available as a PDF download to digital members?
> Si



Yes. Although you don't download it as a single whole-magazine pdf. Instead each article is provided as a separate pdf that you access from a conventional contents page.


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## Bluekingfisher (7 Dec 2010)

I used to subscribe to Popular Woodworking, ordered from my local newsagents, it was a bit hit and miss when it arrived but enjoyed the read most of the time. That was a few years ago now but have noticed the set up and livery of the mag has changed.

I have just subscribed to WoodSmith magazine, it may be a little basic for the serious woodworker but I enjoy the weekly free video tips.

Fine WW is another favourite I tend to buy when I see it on the shelf at WH Smiths.

I don't bother anymore with the Brirish mags, only of use if you like to turn pens or make chess boards and kitchen utensils.


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## tisdai (7 Dec 2010)

Just cancelled my suposed subscription to FWW, not heard a peep from them since i registered over 2 weeks ago. No replies to my e-mails, not a peep out of them. So i will be looking else where. 

Cheers

Dave


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## Bluekingfisher (7 Dec 2010)

That's the only drawback with the yank mags, they can take up to 8-10 weeks to arrive as they only publish them once every two months unlike our monthly magazines. Therefore you will only receive 6 mags in the year, although each time i subscribed in the past I got seven, good will or not the extra mag was welcome.

David


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## tisdai (7 Dec 2010)

Bluekingfisher":2we3cil2 said:


> That's the only drawback with the yank mags, they can take up to 8-10 weeks to arrive as they only publish them once every two months unlike our monthly magazines. Therefore you will only receive 6 mags in the year, although each time i subscribed in the past I got seven, good will or not the extra mag was welcome.
> 
> David



Had my Welcome e-mail and then nothing David, I can't even get to see the back issues online as i can't log in anywhere. E-Mailed them i don't know how many times and still nothing. See what happens when they try and get the subs and can't get them because i have blocked it in my bank account. 

Cheers

Dave


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## Bluekingfisher (7 Dec 2010)

That's one way to get their attention Dave. I hope it's only a glitch and you get to view very soon.

Very frustrating but good luck with it.

David


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## Alf (7 Dec 2010)

Bluekingfisher":1blr6iiz said:


> That's the only drawback with the yank mags, they can take up to 8-10 weeks to arrive as they only publish them once every two months unlike our monthly magazines. Therefore you will only receive 6 mags in the year, although each time i subscribed in the past I got seven, good will or not the extra mag was welcome.


They actually publish seven times a year, so you weren't one of the Chosen Ones favoured with a bonus copy. :wink: 

Can't help with the original question I fear; given up all the mags these days. Apart from pre-war Woodworkers, but unfortunately they're not available on subscription.  It used to be forum chatter was a good yard stick for which magazines were worth having, but there doesn't seem to be much about any particular one of them these days - or I'm looking in the wrong places.


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## Routermonster (7 Dec 2010)

I subscribe to BWW and FWW. 

BWW is a birthday present from one of my daughters. I like its style and enjoy reading it, although the article on pencils in this month's edition was too long - a maximum of two pages would have been better. It's a good general read.

I have recently subscribed to FWW. Their service was excellent - within less than 10 days from filling in the online form, the first copy popped through the letterbox. Even at the overseas rate, it's cheaper than buying from WHS (when they have it). It's a mixed bag, with projects and some hand tool/finishing articles being well detailed and illustrated, but the machinery content is not so good. I won't comment on their safety practices when using tablesaws ... shudder!

I guess all mags become repetitive after a year or two. So this time next year I'll review what's on the market and decide whether to change.

HTH

Les


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## theartfulbodger (7 Dec 2010)

:shock: :shock: how long *was *the article on pencils? :shock: :shock: 

maybe I'm not yet practiced enough in the gentle art of turning trees into sawdust but the two mags I've bought so far have been Woodworking Plans and Projects :ho2


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## Lons (7 Dec 2010)

theartfulbodger":2sl5v1bw said:


> :shock: :shock: how long *was *the article on pencils? :shock: :shock:



6 full pages isn't long...............................is it? :shock:


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## tisdai (7 Dec 2010)

Lons":1yssf8cq said:


> theartfulbodger":1yssf8cq said:
> 
> 
> > :shock: :shock: how long *was *the article on pencils? :shock: :shock:
> ...



6 pages longer than what i got so far, :lol:


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## Dodge (7 Dec 2010)

Well I get The Woodworker, they have had one or two interesting articles over the last few months















But then I might be a bit biased :-" :-" :-" :-" :-" :-" 

Rog


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## tisdai (7 Dec 2010)

I'll blessed yeh lol, it was you who recomended me to it Rog.


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## yetloh (7 Dec 2010)

I have subs to FWW, F&C and BWW.

Won't be renewing FWW when it expires early next year. It has completely lost its design flare and is very largely devoted to boring (for me) repro stuff. I have also become increasingly irritated by its cavalier attitude to the safety of its readers.

For me, F&C has very much turned the corner under its new editor, with a good mix of techniques, interesting projects and design related articles.

BWW is pretty good in my view. I like its opinionated approach (even if I disagree) and its willingness to go into things in some depth.

The others on the market I find too basic with poorly designed projects, but there is clearly a market for mags catering for all levels of experience and tastes. It is really about where the individual happens to be in his or her woodworking development.

Jim


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## Noel (7 Dec 2010)

big soft moose":jqjvw6qk said:


> I had a subscription to BWW last year but i'm not renewing it as imo its gone down hill (the six pages on what pencil people use in this issue was the last straw).



Moose, 6 pages on pencils? What was that all about? (ok pencils, but 6 pages).


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## The Bear (8 Dec 2010)

Not only did BWW have its 6 pages on what pencil people use this month, what got my back up was Steve Maskerys article on making wooden cam clamps. About 10 issues previously we had Olly making, you guessed it, wooden cam clamps. And to top it off they were "to an original design by Steve Maskery". 
I don't blame Steve in any way, in fact I think he is the best thing about the mag.

However I think Nick needs to look at this months content and ask if he provided a decent product. I wouldn't have bought it as a one off but as a subscriber I had no choice. Come on Nick.

Mark


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## Nick W (8 Dec 2010)

I've been impressed with how much Good Woodworking has improved of late.


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## big soft moose (8 Dec 2010)

Noel":35p5k2du said:


> big soft moose":35p5k2du said:
> 
> 
> > I had a subscription to BWW last year but i'm not renewing it as imo its gone down hill (the six pages on what pencil people use in this issue was the last straw).
> ...



it was six pages of opinions from readers on their pencil :roll: - saws, chisels, etc i could understand but pencils :duno:

can't see the point myself 

like i said on another thread bww seems to be mainly filler and very little killer these days - I like steve's articles, and olly's but you can largely get that from their blogs, this forum, and twh (tho i agree with bear about the wooden cam clamps , particularly as this is also on workshop essentials 1&2), and whats going on with nick's proffesed desire to equip the BWW workshop with machines soley made in britain - a nice idea for a single article possibly, but likely to be irrelevant to 99% of readers and i cant see any justification for it as a series

likewise as a proffesional chainsaw user and hobby woodworker i had high hopes of "living wood" but it hasnt lived up to them - the recent play pen article and gate articles were pathetic - just whomped up out of random branch wood with a brace and bit and some nails, and looked like something i'd relegate to the firewood pile, plus we had a several page spread on making a "clay oven" , which boiled down to "get a log and cover it in clay then burn it" and a promised article on making briquettes which was dropped when it was realised that all the submitter was doing was filling toilet rolls with shavings - surely someone could have come up with a propper briquette press.

I dont entirely blame nick as he is obviously hamstrung by what articles are submitted, but imo he'd be better to put the good articles from both magazines together in a bi monthly or quarterly mag and drop the dross and filler (i'm yet to encounter anyone who cares what pencil someonelse uses).

i'm not renewing either of my subscriptions - i think i'll be giving F&C a spin instead


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## theartfulbodger (8 Dec 2010)

I like IKEA pencils. :wink:


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## Lons (8 Dec 2010)

I'm with you Moose.

My copy finally arrived on Monday and I was astonished to see the pencil article though I admit I couldn't be bothered to read it so perhaps I've missed some life changing tips :wink:. I've skimmed the magazine a couple of times but am thoroughly disappointed with the content and the previous issues didn't light my fire either.

I subscribed for many years to The Woodworker and stopped when too many articles repeated, which inevitably happens. Tried most of the others as well, just wish it were possible to combine the best of all into one mag. can't please all of the people etc. though :? 

After reading about BW on this forum I tried to buy a copy without success so emailed Nick who very quickly sent me a gratis copy which prompted me to subscribe.

Definately won't again unless the content changes.  

Bob


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## WorkshopJenny (8 Dec 2010)

I must say, after reading this entire thread, I'm totally inspired and psyched about getting a subscription to a woodworking magazine. Might I add that it may very well be "The Woodworker" because of Roger's mention and the fact that he has articles based around his work. Now, I don't know Roger at all, but I'd certainly love to discuss his articles. So, good job, Roger (Dodge) -- I think you just got yourself a new subscriber.


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## tisdai (8 Dec 2010)

WorkshopJenny":31fqomie said:


> I must say, after reading this entire thread, I'm totally inspired and psyched about getting a subscription to a woodworking magazine. Might I add that it may very well be "The Woodworker" because of Roger's mention and the fact that he has articles based around his work. Now, I don't know Roger at all, but I'd certainly love to discuss his articles. So, good job, Roger (Dodge) -- I think you just got yourself a new subscriber.



Thats what i said to Rog, Jenny after he showed me the article a few / couple of weeks ago, so off I went and subscribed, or should i say tried to subscribe. I yet still have to get anything back from them. I must have e-mailed them loads of times and still nothing, nada, zilch, nixt. Hope you have better luck than me, 

Oh yeh 1 more thing you won't be able to log on Jenny because they have to send you your log on details by letter, NOT an E-Mail but a Stamped Addressed Letter through the post. :shock: :shock: 

Cheers

Dave


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## yetloh (9 Dec 2010)

Jennifer,

No disrespect to Roger, but I would recommend having a good browse in W H Smith's free library before you commit yourself, to get a better idea of which magazine best represents your interests, tastes and skill level.

Jim


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## big soft moose (9 Dec 2010)

Lons":2jvp0xym said:


> I'm with you Moose.
> 
> My copy finally arrived on Monday and I was astonished to see the pencil article though I admit I couldn't be bothered to read it so perhaps I've missed some life changing tips :wink:. I've skimmed the magazine a couple of times but am thoroughly disappointed with the content and the previous issues didn't light my fire either.
> 
> ...



further to this BWW digital just turned up in my inbox which had this to say about the pencils



> We decided to survey woodworkers to find out what sort of pencils they use...we published the best of them, and there were some remarkable stories and suggestions, including a very funny one about a sharpening device being misused.



I can only conclude that whatever nick has been smoking/taking i want some - how the hell can you have a remarkable story about pencils ? , I certainly dont recall seeing anything remarkable in that feature apart from the irony of printing mike garnhams suggestion that they not waste many paragraphs on pencils :roll:, and i dont recall any very funny stories either - tho its possible my brain had switched off from the interminable tedium by then

Skimming back I find that the "funny story" is that someone used to work for a man who habitually used an electric pencil sharpener, then one day he stuck his fountain pen in it by mistake :duno: - oh my sides , i havent laughed so much since I last watched paint dry, and so relevant to woodwork as well. :-k


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## Lons (9 Dec 2010)

> Skimming back I find that the "funny story" is that someone used to work for a man who habitually used an electric pencil sharpener, then one day he stuck his fountain pen in it by mistake - oh my sides , i havent laughed so much since I last watched paint dry, and so relevant to woodwork as well.



:-k ](*,) :shock:


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## big soft moose (9 Dec 2010)

Lons":3j5tu1iq said:


> > Skimming back I find that the "funny story" is that someone used to work for a man who habitually used an electric pencil sharpener, then one day he stuck his fountain pen in it by mistake - oh my sides , i havent laughed so much since I last watched paint dry, and so relevant to woodwork as well.
> 
> 
> 
> :-k ](*,) :shock:



quite

and whats more anoying is that the same issue features a "super guide" to 12 inch bandsaws which is crammed into one and a half pages (including pics), allowing only very superficial comparisons - how that qualifies as a "super guide" is beyond me. A distinct case of wrong priorities imo - I'd rather have seen the "super guide" take up 6 pages and the pencils (if they had to be included at all) take up one.


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## The Bear (10 Dec 2010)

I've just had a email this evening from Nick Gibbs asking for feedback on this months BWW. Coincidence?.

I have tried to be constructive as well as point out the shortcomings in my reply as I do want a mag like his to succeed

Mark


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## Nick Gibbs (10 Dec 2010)

Thanks for wanting the magazine to succeed. I will do my best to live up to the standards you demand. 

Isn't it sad, though, when you try to do something different, like asking woodworkers about pencils, because readers complain about magazines being repetitive, that you get attacked. Maybe it was too long, but we received a huge response to our question, and what I thought was interesting was the breadth of replies. I wanted to get that across, but seem to have made a mistake giving it so many pages. I'm sure I should have given more to the bandsaws. C'est la vie. Sorry.

If you want to receive our new e-newsletter, do please email me at the address below. I don't know how it will develop yet, but we'll do our best to provide useful information.

Cheers

Nick


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## studders (10 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":16f79w4i said:


> Isn't it sad.....
> Nick


 No, not really, part and parcel I would have thought. In fact I would say it's a bonus, you are getting feed back for free.


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## Nick Gibbs (10 Dec 2010)

It is part and parcel, I understand. But it is sad that people are so rude about ideas that are responding to requests for magazines to be less repetitive. The article included comments from top pros like David Charlesworth, Scott Woyka, Konrad Sauer, Tim Hintz and others, so I thought it would be interesting, especially on a topic so universally important as marking out. Obviously I was mistaken. It's hard when it then becomes a rod being used to strike one's back.


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## big soft moose (10 Dec 2010)

Nick - I'm sorry if you found my post above rude or offensive - that was not my intention .( I shouldnt drink and post and may have been more forthright than was tactful)

and yes I would (in theory) aplaud you for responding to the feedback that the magazine be less repetitive, and I would indeed welcome an indepth article featuring top pros on marking out - but that isnt what we got - knowing that scott woyka for example feels that "linex make a good pencil but hes also partial to the staedtler ergosoft" doesnt help anyone become better at marking out - imo a pencil is a pencil is a pencil (okay there are different hardnesses but still) - its not what brand it is that matters but how you use it

However you are right that it is churlish to continue to beat you about the head with regard to the pencils article - I could go on at length about other issues ( as you can doubtless tell ive become somewhat disilussioned with both BWW and Livingwood - and have moved a long way from being the passionate advocate i was a year ago), I will put my more detailed feedback (both positive and negative) into an email rather than posting it here.

Lastly I would commend you for your willingness to respond to such feedback in public forum


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## Nick Gibbs (10 Dec 2010)

Thanks. I appreciate that. 

Cheers

Nick


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## ondablade (10 Dec 2010)

To come in late. Must say that 'Pencilgate' aside I thought that that issue of BW was pretty decent - I certainly learned something from it. F&C in its latest edition seemed much improved too.

That said almost all of the UK mags have suffered terribly as a result of dumbing down, lack of investment in capability/continuity, pandering to the cheapskate end of the market and caving in to advertisers - presumably the result of 'improvements'  made by the large publishing houses. (much like in banking the culture of greed and the absence of a higher vision at the top has surely played a big part in this)

How can digging this hole ever deeper be a rational strategy in these times - when it amounts to eating the seed corn?? They are trying to sell information with a modicum of entertainment mixed in - in a time when with the web, multiple TV channels and the like we're awash in information. Luckily (in only a very narrow sense) that's mostly low grade, low quality noise that can't be trusted.

Surely the central advantage of a periodical is having the time to go away and work stuff through??? Surely the key competitive advantage for the mags is the opportunity to reach for high standards - which surely they must if they are to differentiate themselves from the background noise? 

Talking about it isn't enough however. It means:

- High calibre writers - literate, in depth technical understanding, widely aware and also skilled makers.
- Proven 'why didn't I think of that' methods.
- Tests/reviews which by communicating hard data and other information on capability actually enable informed buying decisions.**
- High levels of awareness of the state of the art (machines, methods, whatever) worldwide, so that topics are placed in context.
- Ditto in the case of what's going on in the industry, the hobby, and in the more general sense.

None of the above are possible when operating in a short term 'skimping' mindset - you can't for example hope to get quality output by indiscriminately dragging no doubt decent and well intended but in the end average Joe's off the street, calling them writers and then hobbling them by demanding pieces for next month's issue by the end of the week.

My personal hope is that one of these days a publisher will come along that's prepared to invest in some of these things....



**e.g. p. 24 BW. What in heaven is the point in in an infomercial like that on angle gauges when there's no mention anywhere of how accurately they measure an angle? They cost around £18. I wouldn't get too excited - another maker's example I bought in the US at that kind of price point with it's sloppy pivot and hysteresis filled electronics feels like it fell out of a Christmas cracker. What I would like to know is whether or not people paying £200 for the big 0.1 deg Bosch angle finder, or lots more for the Felder mitre gauge are in it just for the bragging rights. (or not) Out of square by 1/10 deg by the way is an error of 0.5mm on a 300mm wide cut - more than enough to matter in many situations.


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## Nick Gibbs (10 Dec 2010)

It's a hugely good point, Ian. I don't suppose there is anyone on a British woodworking magazine who wouldn't like to have the resources to do the things you recommend. They are all excellent suggestions. But I think people underestimate the tiny size of readership. When I was editing Woodworker in 1988 we had an audited circulation (ABC) of 42,000+. When I went back to market-leading Good Woodworking in 2005 the ABC was dipping below 14,000, and as they no longer publish an official circulation I suspect it is lower than that. That means very few funds to invest in writers, testing kit (how are we going to test an angle finder without an even more expensive angle finder?), photography etc.... To be honest I think it's something of a miracle Good Woodworking, F&C and British Woodworking can even touch their American rivals, who set the standard with unimaginable resources.

I don't mean that to sound like sour grapes. You take what you are given and do your best to produce the best possible magazine you can.

Cheers

Nick


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## big soft moose (10 Dec 2010)

The Bear":2336cswt said:


> I've just had a email this evening from Nick Gibbs asking for feedback on this months BWW. Coincidence?.
> 
> I have tried to be constructive as well as point out the shortcomings in my reply as I do want a mag like his to succeed
> 
> Mark



Ive just sent nick about a page of A4 too, i'd echo your sentiments about wanting the magazines to suceed - and to be fair to Nick an editor is never going to please everyone - ie he could adopt all my ideas and others might hate them. Also any editor is always hog tied by what is submitted, and its much easier to complain about content than it is to provide it.


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## big soft moose (10 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":3co0izc6 said:


> To be honest I think it's something of a miracle Good Woodworking, F&C and British Woodworking can even touch their American rivals, who set the standard with unimaginable resources.



true , tho the british mags are ahead of them in some ways, such as not advocating bizarre and unsafe tablesaw practices (vis damiens FWW rant thread)


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## Nick Gibbs (10 Dec 2010)

Thanks for your email, Pete. You make perfectly valid points, and others that we just can't resolve (or we'd love to resolve). Some of your comments are personal views, others are objective criticism that's very helpful. It's easier to cope with this in email than have to cope with people discussing how they want to stop subscribing in public. It's not good for business, and ultimately is very unlikely to help anybody. But forums do keep us on our toes. 

Cheers

Nick


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## woodbloke (10 Dec 2010)

ondablade":1gr21a2w said:


> Talking about it isn't enough however. It means:
> 
> - High calibre writers - literate, in depth technical understanding, widely aware and also skilled makers.
> - Proven 'why didn't I think of that' methods.
> ...



I have to come in here as one of the _'average Joes off the street' _contributors, not to Nicks magazine but to F&C. All or most of the contributors are amateurs (in the field of writing at least) and even as pro woodworkers, we get paid a pittance for a lot of hard work to produce an article...if you knew what the page rate was there's not many that would do it consistently (I have for over 10 years as it gives me pocket money for toys)
If you want the calibre of that sort of writer, then the mags would have to pay a hell of a lot more to employ professional people. If you think you could fulfill some of the criteria that you mention, I suggest *you* try and write an article along those lines you discuss...it's bloody hard!
Nick sums it up, as I've said more than once...the circulation of woodworking mags in the UK is simply not big enough, hence all the issues with publications - Rob, _'an average joe' _


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## Lons (10 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":39d6jmkb said:


> It's easier to cope with this in email than have to cope with people discussing how they want to stop subscribing in public. It's not good for business, and ultimately is very unlikely to help anybody. But forums do keep us on our toes. Cheers Nick



Nick

As one of the culprits of the above, please accept my unreserved appologies. However disappointed I may have been, it was not correct for me to express that on a public forum.  #-o 

This of course could never happen when you were at "the Woodworker" and when I was subscribing to that magazine and Practical Woodworking as the internet was only a dream.

I certainly would prefer that BWW is successful and my disappointment at the contents are precisely for that reason. I very much want a mag I can spend ages reading cover to cover and refer back to time after time.

I used to do that with the old Woodworkers (and still do occasionally as I have kept most of them).

As you don't have the resources, then I understand you must cut your cloth accordingly but as expressed by others, mags in general have dumbed down and I don't enjoy basic stuff anymore. If that is the calibre of your core readership then fine - I don't know :duno:

I obviously will renew my subscription if I start to enjoy the content - (if you choose to supply me  ). 
My wife says I'm fickle so could easily happen :?

cheer

Bob


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## Nick Gibbs (10 Dec 2010)

Thanks Bob. Don't worry. Apology accepted.

There is a balance between words to read and things to do in a magazine. That's why I put in some small 'drawings only' ideas for quick projects at Christmas this time, alongside wordier articles like the steam bending. 

I'm still not sure what the 'dumbing down' refers to, because it doesn't feel like that's happened. David Savage called me the other day to say that he thought the magazine was the best in the market. 

Perhaps you could email me some thoughts on the dumbing down. I have got some plans for some more detailed technical pieces, but coercing contributors to write them is hard work. 

Cheers

Nick


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## big soft moose (10 Dec 2010)

I wonder if the perceived dumbing down effect , might be a manifestation of the "its not like twas when we were young" syndrome - ie that its not that the magazine has dumbed down its us undumbing up.

when one first starts out magazine articles telling you how to mark out effectively, how to cut dovetails, how to turn a simple bowl, how to sharpen you plane blade or whatever are what you need

but as time goes on you know all that stuff (alledgedly :lol: ) and you start thinking that articles like that are dumbing down - overlooking the fact that we would not have started reading the magazine in the first place if it had all been advanced content.

For example - moving the focus away from nicks mags - with "woodturning" magazine I used to buy it religiously and read it from cover to cover several times, and keep it for refference - theses days i dont subscribe and i only buy it occasionally , and usually only for a specific article , skim the rest, than chuck it in the recycling - has the magazine changed, or have I ?! 8-[


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## Nick Gibbs (10 Dec 2010)

big soft moose":256jit79 said:


> I wonder if the perceived dumbing down effect , might be a manifestation of the "its not like twas when we were young" syndrome - ie that its not that the magazine has dumbed down its us undumbing up.-[



I didn't like to say that (for fear of sounding clever or as if I was making excuses), but it is a very well-accepted trend in publishing. You read a mag for a few years, then discover you've learnt as much as you need. That's why I've tried to make British Woodworking a good read, but if you do that too much people complain there isn't enough 'to do'. I've tried to combine projects and tests to make them more interesting (as with Olly's tray this issue), and to be more specific (like the glazing bars), rather than try to solve everything in one go (an article on everything you need to know about windows). But it is a tricky balance. 

Thanks for the feedback

Nick


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## Kalimna (10 Dec 2010)

May I make another suggestion? You have stated an interest in fitting out a workshop with British machinery. Well, how about taking the other side of the story and do an article on British handtool producers? Not just the mass produced stuff, but the smaller independents like Phillyplanes. For instance, it would be nice to know of any UK custom saw or chisel builders the equivalent of Wenzloff or Blue Spruce. Just a thought.

Adam


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## ondablade (10 Dec 2010)

Hi Nick, Rob. Well done for coming on Nick. Pardon my presumption, but it beats the hell out of the editor of another UK mag I wrote to recently on this topic - he simply denied all. TBH I think some of the UK mags do very well compared to the US ones, in that it's very noticeable that many of the same factors are at work there too.

I can't for example think of a single US mag I've seen that properly tests tools and equipment, properly addresses the underlying engineering/technical issues, or publishes the sort of hard data from that testing that actually underpins buying decisions. I'm not sure why, but suspect that it's to do with liability, or cost, or expertise, or advertising revenues - probably all and more.

There's a few basics that underpin the situation though. (1) the individual reader can't expect a whole mag full of stuff every month relevant to his personal situation, (2) no mag can cover all levels/needs anyway and (3) as you say Nick - there has to be a level of 'churn' with readers coming in and leaving as they outgrow the mag. There has to be a place for the entry level reader as well as high end stuff. 

One big problem though is that if one mag tries to cover all the bases it risks ending up suiting nobody. It's the classic error many organisations make in their business strategy - they try to be all things to all men, which requires the organisation to simultaneously be the best at delivering everything. It can't be done. So it's important to target specific markets/market segments, to understand their requirements, and to get good at what matters in delivering these.

On dumbing down. I can't help feeling Moose that the arithmetic is at work - that the more people talk about technical advances the less technically savvy we actually get on average. It seems to me that this is the because there's a heck of a lot of people about now with a little knowledge - the CG of writing has been lowered by the draw of this the largest market. 

Sorry if I pitched the last a little close to the bone Rob, I doubt very much if I'd do as well as you as a writer. I'd equally expect though that there's lots of us that could put out decent stuff given a properly supportive context. It's quite clear for example that the switch from long term staffers to unsupported free lancers was one of the methods that the big publishers used to maximise profit - in their drive to pay f*ck all for material. 

The undervaluation of good content is I think (from this very distant viewpoint) so common right across the industry that these days it's standard practice.

The big issue so far as I can tell is the matter of investment in infrastructure - building a big enough team of well paid and capable contributors, not overloading them, doing the research needed to understand broader contexts, funding the organisation for long enough to build up sales and lessen the dependence on advertisers, sorting out a legal framework that enables straight talking and so on.

Is it feasible? I don't know. It's fairly clear that the age profile of woodworkers has got older, that fewer younger people are coming into the industry/trade/hobby. Also that many of those in woodworking are operating on very low budgets using very marginal equipment. Trouble is it's almost become the norm - to the point where the public doesn't see the need to train crafts and regards woodworking (or almost anything else hands-on that replaces bullsh1tting/bragging with doing) as weird, and where any mainstream aspiration to be a high end woodworker owning decent kit is fading. 

Five minutes in George Ellis' joinery book from the early 1900s shows that the guys back then would have fallen around laughing at the quality of most of the kit we consider acceptable. Yet back then it was far more expensive relative to incomes...

Does it have to be that way? I don't know the answer to that one either. But I can't help feeling that the 'profit above all, and to hell with tomorrow' attitude of the publishers is a big factor. The mags set the vibe for those considering entering woodworking, and if (in raking off short term profits) they persist in chasing the market down, reducing their business practices to the lowest common denominator and offering little by way of stuff to reach for/aspire to can it be any wonder that people are not getting enthused??

The very big question is whether or not the market is large enough to support (at any feasible level of investment) this sort of mix of focus and resourcing.

It's just a personal view, but I can't help feeling that the golden goose is not just headed for the dining table, but (by the above refusal to invest) is at least part consumed.

Maybe the rise of greater wage expectations in the Eastern economies, or (heaven forbid) a major depression will shuffle the deck enough to force some change...


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## Nick Gibbs (10 Dec 2010)

Kalimna":2eww7pvn said:


> May I make another suggestion? You have stated an interest in fitting out a workshop with British machinery. Well, how about taking the other side of the story and do an article on British handtool producers? Not just the mass produced stuff, but the smaller independents like Phillyplanes. For instance, it would be nice to know of any UK custom saw or chisel builders the equivalent of Wenzloff or Blue Spruce. Just a thought.
> 
> Adam



Actually Adam, I wasn't trying to kit it out with British machinery. I am largely kitting it with British handtools, but I was idly speculating whether a router had ever been made in Britain. I do hope to get a Coronet Imp bandsaw, which was certainly made in Britain, because I consider the bandsaw to be the finest of all machines, and it would fit in my little shed. The idea is a bit of a laugh, but it will also serve important lessons in limiting the amount of tools your really need and developing hand skills in a way that doesn't appear to be too luddite or too hair-shirted. I'm restricted by space, and in keeping with the name of the mag (British Woodworking) it feels like an interesting challenge. 

Cheers

Nick


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## big soft moose (10 Dec 2010)

thinking about the subject of dumbing down, I wonder if theres milleage for there to be one magazine that is consistently pitched to the higher end.

my other hobby is photography, and the starting out in dslr photography marget for magazines is pretty saturated (practical photography, photography monthly, and amateur photography being the big 3, tho there are loads of others) When i started out about ten years ago I used to take all three, but ive now outgrown them.

However in the photogaphy field there is also "proffesional photographer" which is aimed as the name suggests at pros and semi pros (and serious long term amateurs).

I realise that the photography market as a whole is probably a lot bigger than the woodwork market - but i wonder if at the proffesional end there arent more joiners, cabinet makers etc (many of whom may not subscibe to any of the woodwork mags due to them being put off by beginer orientated content) than there are proffesional photographers.

ergo might there be a market for a "profesional woodworker" type magazine ? featuring profiles of established pros, indepth projects and also have features on marketing yourself and your work, and other stuff to with running a small woodwork orientated buisness (such as websites, SEO etc) 

I suspect that costs for content might be a problem - as in order to engage the pro market such a mag would need pro authors, but perhaps this could be combatted by a higher cover charge (pro photography is a fiver IIRC ).


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## Lons (11 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":3gfzzhhk said:


> I was idly speculating whether a router had ever been made in Britain. Nick



I know it's a long time ago Nick but I distinctly remember the B&D professional range i.e Elu, Dewalt etc coming out of the factory in Spennymoor Co.Durham and I thought they were manufactured there not just assembled - am I wrong?



> I didn't like to say that (for fear of sounding clever or as if I was making excuses), but it is a very well-accepted trend in publishing. You read a mag for a few years, then discover you've learnt as much as you need. That's why I've tried to make British Woodworking a good read, but if you do that too much people complain there isn't enough 'to do'. I've tried to combine projects and tests to make them more interesting (as with Olly's tray this issue), and to be more specific (like the glazing bars), rather than try to solve everything in one go (an article on everything you need to know about windows). But it is a tricky balance.



Makes sense but I believe one of the problems is the internet in that whilst the "oldies" amonst us had to read, research and learn over time, if you ask younger people now they will tell you that anything they need to know can be found in detail on utube etc without effort and they just follow a video clip without ever really learning. "experience by numbers" - that's dumbing down.

TBH if I want to find out about a tool or bit of machinery, I ask on the forums and research on line - just done it and ordered a Metabo ROS. 
I am interested in new tools and machines though and would read the tests although you can never be quite as thorough as you just can't test them all.
I want to see what other craftsmen are producing and not just in my own field.
In short, I want to be kept rivited to a publication as I would be to a good novel :lol: 
Almost an impossible task I fear.

cheers

Bob


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## Nick Gibbs (11 Dec 2010)

It is interesting. When I first edited woodworking magazines 20 years ago, we were inundated with questions. It was an industry in itself answering them. We owned information. Forums have changed all that. Largely for the good.

But I think there is a limitation to forums. For some reason or other people want to read not just what their peers think, but also those that have seen many different tools and machines and can act as mediators and analysts, putting things in perspective. Of course, as a journalist I would say that. It goes to the heart of journalism v people's journalism (blogging), and it couldn't be more relevant now what with WikiLeaks etc...

Let's hope we can work together in harmony!


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## Lons (11 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":2tv1aywv said:


> It is interesting. When I first edited woodworking magazines 20 years ago, we were inundated with questions. It was an industry in itself answering them. We owned information. Forums have changed all that. Largely for the good.
> 
> But I think there is a limitation to forums. For some reason or other people want to read not just what their peers think, but also those that have seen many different tools and machines and can act as mediators and analysts, putting things in perspective. Of course, as a journalist I would say that. It goes to the heart of journalism v people's journalism (blogging), and it couldn't be more relevant now what with WikiLeaks etc...
> 
> Let's hope we can work together in harmony!



Absolutely agree.

But I can't be the only one who loves books - anything technical and I devour them. Magazines I think of as luxuries and expensive if directly compared with a book but still something to look forward to dropping through the letterbox.

I use the internet extensively and value the opinions of others which if you trawl through the dross can give an informed concensis of opinion. As an example, I had been contemplating for years whether to have my eyes lasered. The companies all produced glowing marketing stats whilst the forums also told of foul ups and pain alongside success. I made the decision which was the best money I ever spent but felt comfortable knowing I was better informed.


My grown up kids have a very different attitude to publications and they are typical (except for non technical / entertainment mags). Same applies to TV IMO - just look at the number of quick fix make over progs using cardboard and poster paint, whole house in a few hours - c***!


Go to Ikea any weekend and look at the quality "throw away" stuff the kids are buying. That's the world as it is now but there is also still a sizeable market for quality products and I hope that's true of your industry as well

Ah.... the good old days :lol: 

cheers

Bob


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## Nick Gibbs (11 Dec 2010)

And that, Bob, is why I reviewed the books on the back page of the last issue of British Woodworking as I did. I passionately believe that people gain the most satisfaction from life when they discover things for themselves, and the books I reviewed encourage exactly that approach to woodworking. Convenience is a drug that deadens the mind. 

Nick


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## ondablade (11 Dec 2010)

Predictably enough I'd like to think that Moose's suggestion of a high end magazine makes a lot of sense - but yes, we'd have to be prepared to pay. 

What you say about the web makes sense Bob, but to me it's only a part of the story. I do a lot of digging on the web too when I need to buy or figure out something, but it's a frustrating and frighteningly inefficient way of getting to good information. 

So much of what gets posted and written is of very low quality, or related to very different (but unspoken) requirements to what you may have in mind - and above all is highly random and unstructured. You have to figure out the sites that attract the right people, figure out who has something useful to say, and then trawl through possibly years' worth of material to build up a picture. Even then you risk just getting the result of a consensus made up of people who hopped on a passing band wagon - but who don't have a lot of experience or discrimination.

So while perceptions and cheapskate habits could intrude, it seems very possible that a significantly more expensive but highly refined and data filled magazine makes perfect economic sense for the more serious amateur/professional woodworker. The word 'trustworthy' comes to mind.

There's no doubt that there's a younger generation that perceives the web as a quickie source, but that's surely only to an undiscriminating and less experienced person. The subset whose nature is such that they will progress seem likely to graduate pretty quickly to demanding better information. 

The fact it seems is that printed media faces something of a struggle Nick. It can't hope to compete with the web in the vast volumes of rubbish info stakes. It seems too that the hype and dumbing down plus the one size fits all coporatisation mentioned above (which have become almost traditional in much British publishing) is a business strategy that has had its day - that day having been the 70s/80s where as you say mags were so much the primary information channel that they could afford not to care too much about more specific customer requirements.

So the challenge is presumably to figure out a form of publication more specifically adapted to a chosen segment of the market. Maybe the time is coming for more focused 'boutique' style specialist publishers again.  

There's surely no reason by the way why a high quality periodical shouldn't be published on the web - so the pros and cons of paper probably need thinking about too, and the US mags seem to be investing very heavily in their web presence. 

It seems though that a paper mag has a lot going for it too though....


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## Nick Gibbs (11 Dec 2010)

I'm a bit mystified what this high end magazine will publish. I've worked with professional woodworkers a lot of my life, and the techniques that we show in British Woodworking are the techniques that are often used in professional workshops. 

My suspicion, I'm afraid, is that people are asking not necessarily for high end techniques and kit, but for a magazine that looks high end, and which projects an exclusive impression of how they'd like to be viewed. It becomes a badge. That is a different beast, and I think F&C has been successful for that reason, and other reasons. I don't mean to denigrate them, but there have been jigs and techniques in British Woodworking that I doubt have ever been seen in a British woodworking mag before. But we try to be inclusive, embracing all sorts of folk. The pencil article, for all its failings, put professionals beside ordinary home woodworkers. Perhaps that's why some readers didn't like it. But to me that is what matters. The woodworking market in Britain is so small that the last thing we need is to split it into tinier segments.

In publishing terms, my little company is as close to a boutique as it comes. And I agree that people like me can produce niche titles, like our other title, Living Woods. Though printing and postage are expensive, it is actually the skills and time taken to produce quality articles that matters and really costs, whether it's for a magazine or on the web.


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## The Bear (11 Dec 2010)

I just want to make it clear that the comments I have made refer to the current issue of BWW only. I am generally a happy reader, and would have no hestitation in recommending it to anyone. 
I genuinely wish Nick all the best in making it a continued success.

Mark


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## Nick Gibbs (11 Dec 2010)

Thanks, Mark


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## Lons (11 Dec 2010)

> . I do a lot of digging on the web too when I need to buy or figure out something, but it's a frustrating and frighteningly inefficient way of getting to good information.



Completely agree with that Ian and I'm sure like me you quickly find a way to discard the rubbish and look for the meaty stuff. Not difficult to identify reliable sources of information.

My point about kids reflects what you say though except that many of them are too inexperienced, lazy or naive to use the web properly. They are allowed to largely follow poor practice on the internet in school and get unsupervised access at home and it's fast becoming the norm.

The practice of cut and paste has reduced the need to research and learn properly hence the dumbing down comments.
I've taught GNVQ lads of 16 - 19 in college. Ask many of them a question and they'll use their iphone and give you the first answer they find on the web. The good ones of course do learn it's only a tool and do it properly - eventually.


I love the facility of the web, the 24hr access and instant answers - hate the way it's abused.- but that's another topic  



> Predictably enough I'd like to think that Moose's suggestion of a high end magazine makes a lot of sense - but yes, we'd have to be prepared to pay.



I'd pay a premium price for a magazine I felt was worthwhile and absolutely nothing to do with perceived cudos or exclusivity. just good old fashioned quality of content and therefore value for money.
Worst thing possible is to buy a product, ANY product and feel it wasn't worth having! Every one of us has done that .



> And that, Bob, is why I reviewed the books on the back page of the last issue of British Woodworking as I did. I passionately believe that people gain the most satisfaction from life when they discover things for themselves, and the books I reviewed encourage exactly that approach to woodworking. Convenience is a drug that deadens the mind.



=D> =D> I read the mag properly last night and admit my 5 minute skim through comment was a bit harsh - I'm done now - no more Nick knocking from me  

cheers

bob


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## Nick Gibbs (11 Dec 2010)

Thanks, Bob. 

Nick


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## ondablade (11 Dec 2010)

I'm not knocking Nick, as I'm not sure where the sweet spot lies so far as what's commercially feasible. Pardon the length again too, or any impression of my being pushy.

I was though trying to highlight a very real issue which is a lot more substantial than bragging rights or anything like that - specifically the previously mentioned need of especially higher hobby/entry level professional woodworkers for trustworthy information. 

With this in mind tool, machine and equipment reviews are a good example of something specific that from the reader's view point surely needs handling differently by the mags.

I'm nearing the end of a fairly major upgrade of my workshop, and really struggled to get good information. This followed a fairly sizable initial investment based largely on mag reviews made about ten years ago. I got by, but bluntly none of the big purchases from then performed as implied by either the mags or the makers at the time. 

It's no trivial matter, in that it had significant financial consequences in the form of the need to upgrade all of my machines and my dust system again now.

As an engineer and manager from an industrial background I was (and have remained) shocked at the level of smoke and mirrors (and I could be a lot blunter) that I now know to be rife in the selling of hobby/entry level professional woodworking kit - no company dealing with industrial customers with clout, or subject to even basic regulatory frameworks could hope to get away with what goes on.

I think the problem is so prevalent however that there's a 'what do fish know about water' aspect to it. People in all parts of hobby woodworking seem so used to it that they don't notice it any more. The sellers always have a glib defence to hand, and the punters expect to be lied to - and anyway they are often motivated to defend their purchases come what may. If they do find their way through luck or experience to good kit, it's often seen as being the basis of bragging rights - rights which would be lost if the minions didn't frequently screw up.

The problem has various sources, but starts with the fact that many manufacturers don't publish data that truly captures the capability of their machines. What data is published it is surely driven more by marketing than by any sincere attempt to inform. Much of it seems also deliberately pitched to mislead - HP gets rated by means designed to make the kit look powerful, or is simply exaggerated; airflows are produced using test set ups designed to support inflated numbers that bear little relation to user realities, capacity numbers (e.g. re-saw capability on band saws) are often carefully positioned so that at the level of the precise words used it turns out not quite to be a lie, and everything from a saw in a biscuit tin upwards is pitched as top quality, professional standard. etc. etc.

So-called tests or reviews of this kit by the mags tend often read much like the local guy down the road reporting a quick try out of a machine they already know is the business - certainly not like the output of an open minded and objective test designed to produce hard and repeatable data and conclusions. 

Now of course there is such a thing as a quick try-out - but bluntly all of the woodworking mags I've seen seem to bottle on calling the makers' bluffs.

Take one example, the above mentioned seeming 'claims' about the re-saw capability of band saws that caused me a lot of bother, and recently cost me significant money. Makers routinely talk of 'vertical capacity', but that doesn't necessarily relate to true re-saw capability. The sucker though it seems is fairly clearly intended to confuse what in practice are two very different matters.

Why do the mags not test band saws to establish and accurately describe their level of capability (speed, straightness/drift, finish, pernicketyness etc) at varying depths of re-saw?? Can it be that difficult?? Why did a long test of a high end hobby/entry level professional saw in one of the mags I'm thinking of not bother taking it past happy happy talk of easily re-sawing 10in of oak? 

I'm well aware actually of the degree to which most mags depend on advertising revenues, and of the practical need to not alienate the makers, but surely there have to be other considerations beyond total capitulation in play too??

The point here is not that there shouldn't be equipment available at varying price/capability points, with the cheaper stuff delivering only basic performance. The point is that it's next to impossible to establish where individual bits of kit lie on this continuum - to know what you are buying.

This Nick is one example of the information gap that one or two mags could fill. But doing so requires the previously mentioned investment, and a decision as to who your real customers are. Not to mention a decision as to whether or not it's commercially feasible...


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## Nick Gibbs (11 Dec 2010)

We did a test of a Makita saw in the recent issue of British Woodworking. Makita (who are generally very good about supplying kit for testing) could only let us test in their workshop. Ultimately it meant I had about four hours to test the saw. I freely admit that's not enough in many ways, though I've tested enough kit to quite quickly work out what the main strengths and weaknesses are. I think I might have mentioned this in the test.

What I am trying to do is to incorporate kit tests into projects in the magazine. Stephen Prescott shares our workshop, and is currently making a desk using the new Lamello Zeta 'biscuit' jointer. He's also been testing edge-banding gear on the desk. 

If British Woodworking was to go monthly, which is a current thought, I would almost certainly employ a full-time project maker, to build us projects specifically for the magazine whilst testing gear at the same time. We would design the furniture and stuff ourselves and then potentially sell it locally afterwards. If anyone is interested in such a post do please email me.

Testing is always a nightmare. I don't think magazines should be seen as police as we'll always disappoint in that regard, not just because we are compromised by advertisers, but because budgets mean we just don't have the time to do the testing to confidently make the claims readers might like to see. Imagine how long it would take to test a bandsaw long enough to be able to say that it will always drift, irrespective of the type of blade and type/thickness of wood. And who knows if the one you buy next month will come from the same batch? That is why I favour a roundup, giving the reader substantial information about specs, but not necessarily testing the products. Even specs, though, are vulnerable to claims it's difficult for us to substantiate.


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## yetloh (11 Dec 2010)

Nick is absolutely right on all scores, in my view. BW and F&C are, for me, complementary. BW has good practical stuff and in addition, is a good read which is very important to me. F&C is more design led and is now doing a good job. 

The fact is that all British woodworking magazines are run on a shoestring; they have to be if they are to make a profit on the circulation levels that are achievable. This means they can only be run with very low staffing levels and must rely upon freelance authors for much of their content. The problem with this is that those authors must not only know what they are talking about, but also be able to write fluently in a way that clearly conveys the process or ideas being described *and *engages the reader. I am sure we can all recall articles where we thought that the author clearly new what he was doing but failed dismally to convey an understanding of the process in words. This combination of skills is really not that common and mere mortal editors are sometimes forced to compromise when faced with a deadline. This is where the bi-monthly format of BW really scores but, inevitably, the tight budget will show through from time to time. The fact is, that the price that can be charged, and the limited circulation that is possible, make these compromises unavoidable. This is something I can accept in exchange for all the really good stuff which these two mags currently produce.

Jim


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## Nick Gibbs (11 Dec 2010)

By the way (without meaning to be patronising nor sycophantic), fair play to the members of the UKW forum for conducting this debate in an interesting and thought-provoking way. The thread has stayed on topic, and though only a few of us may be following it, there haven't been any asides and chit-chat, which can put off members who aren't in the know.


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## tisdai (11 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":16kjs8pf said:


> By the way (without meaning to be patronising nor sycophantic), fair play to the members of the UKW forum for conducting this debate in an interesting and thought-provoking way. The thread has stayed on topic, and though only a few of us may be following it, there haven't been any asides and chit-chat, which can put off members who aren't in the know.



I have been following it from the start when knappers first started the thread off, Their have been some great points made about the mags and about the internet, " without which this discussion would have not even been thought of ". I am one of the ' not in the know ' Nick, that is why i joined UKW because of a review i was looking for on a particular tool and came across it on here. 

I bought my Table Saw, Bandsaw and other powertools / handtools because of some the members reviews and experience that they have had with them. For me this forum and the members have been more help to me than any magazine could have been. They say America is the capital of Adverstising, well for me the Uk is certainly in their with them, you can not hardly turn a page without try this, buy this, go here, go their, thats the main reason i stopped buying them some years ago.

Cheers

Dave


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## woodbloke (11 Dec 2010)

yetloh":3i87dwyd said:


> Nick is absolutely right on all scores, in my view. BW and F&C are, for me, complementary. BW has good practical stuff and in addition, is a good read which is very important to me. F&C is more design led and is now doing a good job.
> 
> The fact is that all British woodworking magazines are run on a shoestring; they have to be if they are to make a profit on the circulation levels that are achievable. This means they can only be run with very low staffing levels and must rely upon freelance authors for much of their content. The problem with this is that those authors must not only know what they are talking about, but also be able to write fluently in a way that clearly conveys the process or ideas being described *and *engages the reader. I am sure we can all recall articles where we thought that the author clearly new what he was doing but failed dismally to convey an understanding of the process in words. This combination of skills is really not that common and mere mortal editors are sometimes forced to compromise when faced with a deadline. This is where the bi-monthly format of BW really scores but, inevitably, the tight budget will show through from time to time. The fact is, that the price that can be charged, and the limited circulation that is possible, make these compromises unavoidable. This is something I can accept in exchange for all the really good stuff which these two mags currently produce.
> 
> Jim


Jim...I agree completely on all counts and your post describes the issues clearly with regard to the UK mag situation. Just to add, I recently tested a Bosch table saw for F&C. The criteria that the ed set was around 1000 words (about three pages) with an emphasis on accuracy. Given those constraints, it would be impossible to do a full scale evaluation of the saw and if one were to be done, it would take up half the mag space, so the general 'feel' or 'overview' is what the tester is looking for within the limits imposed by the ed. 
Don't forget also of course, that contributors have to take their own high quality (wherever possible) pics which is something that's so far not been touched on...and we still get paid next to nothing  - Rob, David Bailey mode


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## big soft moose (11 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":3298e6bc said:


> The pencil article, for all its failings, put professionals beside ordinary home woodworkers. Perhaps that's why some readers didn't like it. But to me that is what matters. The woodworking market in Britain is so small that the last thing we need is to split it into tinier segments.
> .



I think you might be missing the point nick - the idea isnt to split the existing market into tinier segments but to expand the market by offering a proffesional level title that might be of interest to proffesionals (and firms) who dont currently buy woodworking magazines because they have "outgrown" the titles and content currently on offer.

Also with regard to what content the magazine would print, you are undoubtedly right that many of the techniques used in beginer projects are also used by pros - but at the same time (with no disrespect to the authors concerned) it is unlikely that the average pro is going to be that interested in a project on making a tea tray, or how to mask knots etc.

taking the model of pro photographer magazine, I would envisage the content being pro level projects (same techniques but applied to more advanced work), reviews of pro level machinery - spindle moulders, panel saws, big ass bandsaws etc, interviews with other pro makers, and as i mentioned above comercial advice on marketting, web design an optimisation, tax and legal matters etc. (plus whateverelse pro makers want - as i'm not one i'm not best placed to guess, but there are planty of prosd both here and on wwuk who could be asked). Maybe it wouldnt work, maybe I'm full of pineapple, but if its not tried no one will ever know whether it works or not.


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## big soft moose (11 Dec 2010)

also with regard to pencil gate, without wanting to return to a detailed disection, the main issue for me appart from the length, was that it wasnt "an article" but just a collection of anectdotal - "I use this, well i use that" and as such while it might have suceeded in putting pros and amateurs on the same page, it didnt give that much actual help or advice, and thus gave the impression of it being filler.

I wouldnt have objected so vociferously to an actual article about pencils with pro advice on what hardness to use when, tests of which brand/type are best for what and maybe a side bar of readers comments, and a collection of stats from the survey of how many readers use H, HB, B, chalk, crayon, marking knives, the blood of their enemies or whatever


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## ondablade (11 Dec 2010)

As before I think too that there has been a great improvement in F&C recently, and that BW delivers more than enough for me to buy it. (I've only quite recently tripped over BW - it may be that it was not much distributed over here)

Thanks for the honest reply Nick, and as before please don't read what I've written as criticism. I'm to a fair extent consciously flying a kite in pushing for higher quality machine reviews, in that it's clear that all concerned (given the current structure of the industry) are working under very constrained circumstances, and generally doing a good job. 

Sorting that one (even presuming that it's feasible) requires a very different business model and approach to investment than currently seems to be the norm. Failing a Sugar Daddy owner/investor prepared to back a higher risk/cost/price model e.g. like what I've described, or an organic build up to it as conditions change the decision to make such a jump is probably well beyond the remit or span of control of any editor.

One very good US mag editor I have had some contact with has said (better not name names) that they have for reasons of conflict of interest, need for qualified staff and testing facilities, probable need to buy test machines, need to maintain advertiser relationships, liability concerns, cost/resourcing etc. decided as a matter of policy that they can't/won't do full on testing of machines at all. Only impressions.

So for sure the mags can't police the makers. It seems to me though that it's very important for their continued relevance that they so far as is reasonably possible act as honest brokers.

A final thought - might there be something to be gained/might your writers find it useful if some time was put into developing lists of items to be assessed when writing about the more standard machine and equipment types? The emphasis might be on identifying the real world factors (not necessarily the stock headings in machine specs) that determine true capability. So that when you the four hour window is made available it's staright in and at it.

Beyond that perhaps I should be more thankful for the way the web and forums have so massively opened up the amount of information about, and as Lons said concentrate on tuning my own radar!!!  

Thank you all for your patience, the topic rather got me going...


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## Nick Gibbs (12 Dec 2010)

Good points Ian. I think we're all learning lots here. I do try to set criteria for a test, and have at time published those criteria. As you rightly say, those don't always relate to spec boxes. Actually I completely forgot to mention bandsaw speeds on the roundup of bandsaws, because I've never come across anyone who changes bandsaw speeds.

Regarding the top end market, sadly professionals very rarely buy magazines, unless there is a real need fulfilled (like job ads). Funnily enough it tends to be the keen home woodworkers who do the most innovating, and that is why the American market seems so vibrant because there are so many amateurs who can buy machines and timber cheaply. But they are suffering from deskilling just as we are from changes in education, and the numbers participating are reducing over there too from what I hear.

Cheers

Nick


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## Lons (12 Dec 2010)

big soft moose":bua28sv2 said:


> the idea isnt to split the existing market into tinier segments but to expand the market by offering a proffesional level title that might be of interest to proffesionals (and firms) who dont currently buy woodworking magazines because they have "outgrown" the titles and content currently on offer.
> 
> Also with regard to what content the magazine would print, you are undoubtedly right that many of the techniques used in beginer projects are also used by pros - but at the same time (with no disrespect to the authors concerned) it is unlikely that the average pro is going to be that interested in a project on making a tea tray, or how to mask knots etc.
> 
> taking the model of pro photographer magazine, I would envisage the content being pro level projects (same techniques but applied to more advanced work), reviews of pro level machinery - spindle moulders, panel saws, big ass bandsaws etc, interviews with other pro makers, and as i mentioned above comercial advice on marketting, web design an optimisation, tax and legal matters etc. (plus whateverelse pro makers want - as i'm not one i'm not best placed to guess, but there are planty of prosd both here and on wwuk who could be asked). Maybe it wouldnt work, maybe I'm full of pineapple, but if its not tried no one will ever know whether it works or not.



Well said Moose

I don't earn my living directly from woodworking, (kitchen installations excepted) but I'm way past the basic mundane stuff which holds little interest for me and if someone comes up with a more professional mag then I'll buy it and pay the going rate. I would prefer it to be a British publisher if at all possible!

Photography is one of my hobbies as well and I think Moose has made valid comparisons.



> Thank you all for your patience, the topic rather got me going...



Got my juices flowing as well ( a little too much at times  )

Nick has to be applauded whether we agree with him or not, he has answered questions asked and opened himself up to critical examination =D> =D> a potentially uncomfortable situation. Not many editors would be so brave and that certainly earns my respect.

cheers

bob


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## woodbloke (12 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":1p95c6ky said:


> sadly professionals very rarely buy magazines
> Nick


Again, spot on the money. I did a trawl round six pro makers in my local area recently...not one of them took a magazine, even on 'once only, have a quick skim' basis - Rob


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## dickm (12 Dec 2010)

Are we all a bit unrealistic in our expectations here? The commercial reality is that magazines, and even professional journals, have to cover their costs and make some profit for their owners. This means that whatever they do is going to be affected not only by what their readers want, but also what makes money. And we have to recognise that without advertising, the costs of a magazine could never be covered from subscription or cover price. This means that advertisers are going to have a strong influence on what can and cannot be said, so "warts and all" reviews are not likely to be popular! (though, in the 1970s/80s, it was possible to get a pretty clear idea of what good old Gordon Warr thought of a product by reading between the lines, once you tuned in to his style)
I'm a member of a couple of professional societies as a hangover from my "proper" career, and the content of their journals is authored free by members and others who have to publish to get ahead. They do employ professional editors to copy edit the final product, but the technical editing of content is done for free, again, by members as part of their professional responsibilities. The journals are often still monochrome, with quite limited illustration, but, of course, they generally do have very professional and relatively unbiased content. It's possible that one way to get what people want in terms of a professional magazine/journal would be to run it on similar lines, as part of a professional organisation, but who is going to take those responsibilities? 
If it's just unbiased product reviews you want, then possibly another model is Which, but think of the size of their membership compared to the total community of professional and semi-professsional woodworkers.
In the end, caveat emptor........


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## Nick Gibbs (12 Dec 2010)

The idea of a community magazine has crossed my mind over the years. The trouble is that time is the greatest hurdle (after the cost of printing). To make magazines simple to produce actually the best approach is to do everything in-house, with a workshop that makes all the projects and tests all the tools. Though freelancers obviously bring colour and change to a magazine, they also cause the most problems and because of the variability of their contributions it makes the production of a consistent high-quality magazine very difficult. I spend a lot of time travelling around taking photographs of completed projects made in workshops around the land. I don't resent that because it takes me to workshops, which is always valuable, but unless I did that the look of British Woodworking would be very shoddy. Travel is time consuming and expensive. Anyone who has experienced one of my forays to their workshop will know that I'm generally in a mad dash to fit in two or three more visits to other workshops on my way to or from home.


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## ondablade (12 Dec 2010)

Bloody hell, I'm off again! To draw on some insights from my past life in change management. Of course things are the way they are - but they ended up there as a result of the decisions that brought the industry to where it is. 

So if there is to be change somebody has to make the first move - but for this to be feasible they have to progress the organisation through a series of states of punctuated equilibria. Meaning that they must balance all of the factors, all along the way - vision and objectives, situation and resources, leadership, culture, right people and capability, and systems/methods.

The blocker, and the reason that change is so difficult (before you ever consider the tangible realities like markets, and cost and earnings) is that the existing system (which was successful in its time) creates a culture (or default ways of thinking and behaving) that people fear and resist moving away from. This is why people see what is as unchangeable, why organisations find it so difficult to respond to new realities, fail to respond to changing external environments, and keep on doing the same old things the same old way regardless. (they cling to their comfort zone - which admittedly given the way our intentions condition our perceptions seems perfectly reasonable)

Many of the 'why it's not' factors being talked of now are not to my mind in any way fundamental - they in fact are only a reflection of the current status quo. Of course the trade/high end woodworkers don't buy mags much when so much of the content is dumbed down. When little hard information is provided and relates mostly to situations where low budget equipment is in use. Of course new entrants tend to go for cheapo rubbish (with many I suspect discouraged as a result) - why wouldn't they when it features in many of the mags (not so much in the ones we have discussed), and the maker's OTT claims are left unchallenged. 

Of course woodworking is declining - the resulting slide to the lowest common denominator can only result in loss of status and respect, consequent loss of any attraction for high quality people, loss of critical mass (training and manufacturing), not to mention the end of any viable industry.

The pressure you find yourself under Nick is surely not an absolute necessity, but rather the inevitable result of the under resourced pressure pot low cost/max profit business model created by the methods of the big publishing houses - a lowest common denominator 1980s greed based business model which is now with competition from the web on the slide. It's also for me a very significant factor in the decline of woodworking.

We're conditioned to think that we are driven by external forces, and that we're the prisoners of these. They do define our starting point, but in the end the only factor that matters is vision and intention - and woodworking to my mind really needs the application of some higher vision these days.

Caveat emptor is a case in point Dick. It's of course essential we're careful in the current business environment, but how in the end can we have a decent woodworking scene (or indeed society) if it's accepted that the only way for anybody to get ahead is at the expense of somebody else? There has to be a higher vision in play that looks past this.

I'm somewhat tongue in cheek again Nick because there are other factors in play too (as even with vision and belief it's hard to build up to what I'm talking of) - so please don't feel I'm laying it all on you. But I'm serious too..


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## Nick Gibbs (12 Dec 2010)

Interesting reading, Ian. Lots of good sense. I will ponder once I've got the latest issue of Living Woods to press!

Cheers

Nick


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## Lons (12 Dec 2010)

Ian

=D> =D> =D> here here!

Your last post pretty much puts it into a nutshell for me and is how I see it also though I've struggled to express it.

Change is never an impossible task - only a difficult one - who was it said that the first step is the hardest?

cheers

Bob


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## Nick Gibbs (12 Dec 2010)

Change is difficult. I don't mean to sound as if I don't like it: I've introduced plenty of innovations to woodworking magazines, and hope I've got a few more in me yet.

But I do think that some people have a misapprehension of what a professional workshop looks like and how it works if they want a high-end magazine. I've just been sent a photo of a router table from Simon at Oryx (fantastic work, he does) which is made from an old sideboard. The one Justin Williams of Williams & Cleal (fantastic work they do) uses is even more basic. 

Thinking about it, one of the things American magazines have done by investing so much in fantastic illustrations is that they have sanitised woodworking, making all the jigs and things look very much smarter than the tend to be in reality. My experience of many pro workshops is that most of the jigs are flung together, and hang, tatty-ish, on the wall. That's why the tips pages in US mags are hand-drawn, to make the tips look sexier than they really are. In British Woodworking we remake a fair number of the tips, a) to try them out, and b) to portray reality.


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## Dodge (12 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":1hi5bgil said:


> But I do think that some people have a misapprehension of what a professional workshop looks like.
> 
> Thinking about it, one of the things American magazines have done by investing so much in fantastic illustrations is that they have sanitised woodworking, making all the jigs and things look very much smarter than the tend to be in reality. My experience of many pro workshops is that most of the jigs are flung together, and hang, tatty-ish, on the wall. That's why the tips pages in US mags are hand-drawn, to make the tips look sexier than they really are. In British Woodworking we remake a fair number of the tips, a) to try them out, and b) to portray reality.



I have got to fully agree with what Nick has said here - The majority of my jigs are made specifically for a single purpose and therefore are rarely re-used as most of my pieces are "one off" commissions and even if repeated new jigs will be made specifically to suit that piece being worked on.

The other thing is that jigs one made take up alot of space and whilst they are made to be accurate once used quite often end up in the off-cuts bucket ready for the woodburner. If I had kept ever jig ever made I wouldnt have space to move in my workshop. 

A workshop should be clean and tidy environment but what you see in the majority of American Mags are purely photographic stages! 

I feel that this thread is going round and round a bit - What we all must remember is that what interests one person will bore another rigid - We all have different interests and abilities . What we personally dislike in an article may be highly praised by another.

Personally I think a bit of give and take is required - the magazines may only take a few hours to read but take weeks if not months of hard work to put together.

Rog


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## Nick Gibbs (12 Dec 2010)

It is quite funny the emails I've had the weekend, with so many different folk liking and/or loathing almost every article in different ways. 

A famous planemaker once asked me for a copy of one of my magazines. I suggested he swap it for one of his planes. "But my planes take a month to make," he said. "So does an issue of my magazine," I retorted!!!!


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## Dodge (12 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":ixyjj9bl said:


> A famous planemaker once asked me for a copy of one of my magazines. I suggested he swap it for one of his planes. "But my planes take a month to make," he said. "So does an issue of my magazine," I retorted!!!!


 =D> =D> =D>


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## Lons (12 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":2lix4uxr said:


> It is quite funny the emails I've had the weekend, with so many different folk liking and/or loathing almost every article in different ways.
> 
> A famous planemaker once asked me for a copy of one of my magazines. I suggested he swap it for one of his planes. "But my planes take a month to make," he said. "So does an issue of my magazine," I retorted!!!!




=D> =D> =D> 

Yep - have to admit that an hour of my time costs a hell of a lot more than the cover price of your magazine Nick  

I do support what you are trying to do and you're never going to please me or anyone else completely so middle ground it has to be.

BTW, I did eventually wade through the pencil pages and at least applaud you for including the comment from Mike Garnham who's last sentence clearly showed his opinion. :-" 

Got to agree with what Rog says as well. The post is going round in circles and to that end I won't air any more of my opinions on the subject in public.

cheers

Bob


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## ondablade (13 Dec 2010)

I can safely say that Nick is right. Despite the 'come on guys' sound of what I wrote change is one of the most difficult undertakings possible in an organisation. 

It's a catch 22 problem though, in that the point is eventually reached in every normal organisation where it's no longer optional. The safest bet is usually gradual but continuous or evolutionary change. The risks increase rapidly with the depth and speed of change - which is why delaying until it's forced is even more risky....


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## Alf (13 Dec 2010)

Dodge":blzv9sb2 said:


> I feel that this thread is going round and round a bit


The subject itself tends to go round and round a bit - we've had similar discussions frequently over the years, with various magazine folks contributing. Fair play to Nick; he's probably taken more of it on board than any other editor (and more flak too, I reckon), but still the same points crop up again and again. The magazines are all still seeming to try and be all things to all men, and it doesn't work. Another frequent moan is where is the aspirational/inspirational stuff? Yes, you want projects that make you want to rush out to the w'shop then and there, but sometimes you want to read about a "Someday" project, that you aspire to do. If it's well presented, in the meantime you can still generally pick up tips and techniques from it that you can use now anyway. FWW used to be good at that, but not so much now, I gather. 

Of course, if you can find half a dozen good writers who have a steady turnover of new projects to write about, a breathtaking range of technical know-how, and will work for peanuts, you could solve the problem in one fell swoop. And I'm sure Nick writes to Santa and asks about that on an annual basis... :wink:


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## Nick Gibbs (13 Dec 2010)

Alf":2i34q9xj said:


> Of course, if you can find half a dozen good writers who have a steady turnover of new projects to write about, a breathtaking range of technical know-how, and will work for peanuts, you could solve the problem in one fell swoop. And I'm sure Nick writes to Santa and asks about that on an annual basis... :wink:



Thanks, Alf. I gave up believing in that Santa years ago, I'm afraid. But it's good to hope.


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## Sgian Dubh (13 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":234eop6j said:


> A famous planemaker once asked me for a copy of one of my magazines. I suggested he swap it for one of his planes. "But my planes take a month to make," he said. "So does an issue of my magazine," I retorted!!!!



Ah, maybe true Nick, but you are operating in a truly scaleable industry and the planemaker isn't. By that I mean the planemaker has one product to sell at the end of a month's work, whereas you have hundreds, or perhaps thousands, albeit each one of your magazines costs a fraction of the single plane.

You aren't comparing like for like, but I suspect you were aware of that and your comment to the planemaker (and here) was rather tongue-in-cheek. Slainte.


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## Nick Gibbs (13 Dec 2010)

Sgian Dubh":1y957fxv said:


> Ah, maybe true Nick, but you are operating in a truly scaleable industry and the planemaker isn't. By that I mean the planemaker has one product to sell at the end of a month's work, whereas you have hundreds, or perhaps thousands, albeit each one of your magazines costs a fraction of the single plane.
> 
> You aren't comparing like for like, but I suspect you were aware of that and your comment to the planemaker (and here) was rather tongue-in-cheek. Slainte.



It was, of course, tongue in cheek, but only up to a point. It is very easy for people to underestimate the effort that goes into producing a magazine, and that the collection, analysis and repackaging of information in an entertaining and informative manner is a skill the same as making a plane, fitting a sink or cooking. I had a very rude visitor at a show recently who saw nothing painful in telling me how he gets his copies of my magazine from someone else, and passes them around.


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## tisdai (13 Dec 2010)

> I had a very rude visitor at a show recently who saw nothing painful in telling me how he gets his copies of my magazine from someone else, and passes them around



I think you are getting a bit carried away with this Nick, You can't say with hand on heart that you have never passed anything on, or gave someone a magazine of book that you have read. How would we be able to pass the time away in a docs surgery or hospital waiting room if their was nothing to read  

Cheers

Dave


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## Jacob (13 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":249yyn8s said:


> ..... I had a very rude visitor at a show recently who saw nothing painful in telling me how he gets his copies of my magazine from someone else, and passes them around.


At least he didn't bin them, you should be pleased!


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## Nick Gibbs (13 Dec 2010)

Sorry. I didn't mean to be over the top. People often say that to me at shows, and they're a bit embarrassed, and you laugh about it, and think that yes it hopefully will lead to a sale. This one was just rude about it, and aggressive, and didn't feel he should have to pay for information. He got my goat.


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## Sgian Dubh (13 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":mkdo7cce said:


> It was, of course, tongue in cheek, but only up to a point. It is very easy for people to underestimate the effort that goes into producing a magazine, and that the collection, analysis and repackaging of information in an entertaining and informative manner is a skill the same as making a plane, fitting a sink or cooking.


Nick, I don't doubt the effort and work that goes into creating a good magazine, issue after issue. I have had some peripheral involvement in the publishing game over the last fifteen years as an author, and I like to think I've developed just about enough understanding of the business to recognise the work and talent needed to create a good magazine. 

I genuinely enjoy sending my manuscripts to a good editor of a good magazine. 
I suppose the counterpoint to that is I do not enjoy sending work to a poor editor, and won't do so if I find out I'm working with a dud. Slainte.


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## Nick Gibbs (14 Dec 2010)

Sgian Dubh":1fputvi9 said:


> I genuinely enjoy sending my manuscripts to a good editor of a good magazine. I suppose the counterpoint to that is I do not enjoy sending work to a poor editor, and won't do so if I find out I'm working with a dud. Slainte.



Does that mean I can expect to hear from you?


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## Sgian Dubh (14 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":3twk0ilw said:


> Does that mean I can expect to hear from you?


Possibly, but it will have to wait until I finish working on a larger text which is a manuscript on timber technology. It's only been five years and a bit in the writing until now, ha, ha. 

I'm not much interested in putting together short two or three thousand word pieces plus figures and photographs at the moment, although I can do so easily enough if I'm in the mood and/or the pay is tempting enough. Pay itself is rarely tempting in the woodworking publishing world as you know of course. Articles are generally relatively straightforward though and the research, referencing and attribution often needs to be only be very slight, although that's not the case with every article. It depends on the subject and the treatment: is it merely an opinion piece and/or one based on experience, or is it a text that needs real primary and secondary research with references and a bibliography are elements that influences the time required to create the manuscript. Slainte.


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## Nick Gibbs (14 Dec 2010)

Well, good luck with it. Do drop me an email if you have something to say/write.


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## Oryxdesign (14 Dec 2010)

I wonder if there is a market for a British mag in the states, they're exporting enough stuff to us, it'd be only right to send some back.


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## Nick Gibbs (14 Dec 2010)

Oryxdesign":3o3kc59n said:


> I wonder if there is a market for a British mag in the states, they're exporting enough stuff to us, it'd be only right to send some back.



Funny you say that, Simon, but when I launched British Woodworking, one of the long-term objectives was that I might one day be able to export it to the States and get our own back for once!!!! But I'm not sure how one goes about that. Any ideas on a postcard please. I'm not sure if I'd have to alter the content too much to make it specifically British.


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## Jacob (14 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":1kyrsciw said:


> Oryxdesign":1kyrsciw said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if there is a market for a British mag in the states, they're exporting enough stuff to us, it'd be only right to send some back.
> ...


Get C Schwarz to write for it?
Not entirely facetious - it's not about "marketing" it's more about having something to market.


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## Lons (15 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":l6mxmh2j said:


> Funny you say that, Simon, but when I launched British Woodworking, one of the long-term objectives was that I might one day be able to export it to the States and get our own back for once!!!! But I'm not sure how one goes about that. Any ideas on a postcard please.




Just clean up the workshop, Throw away all the machine guards and get the lads to wear make up for the camera shots.    


Why am I still following this thread :? :-k

Bob


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## Nick Gibbs (15 Dec 2010)

Why won't this thread die?

Not sure Pop Wood would appreciate Chris writing for us, but I'll try. He's a good bloke. Nice thinking.


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## Dodge (15 Dec 2010)

Nick Gibbs":22mzo8x2 said:


> Why won't this thread die?



I was thinking exactly that - Come on everyone - self restraint!! :lol: :lol: 

Rog


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