# 2015 Woodturning Challenge



## henton49er (1 Oct 2014)

It is time to look forward to next year and to decide whether the Challenge should continue into next year.

Some thoughts:-

There has been a reducing entry throughout 2014, starting with around 15 entrants, down to only 6, 6 and 5 in the last three months. There are a few stalwarts, but very little interest apart from these few - is it worth continuing next year?

We are clearly going to repeat some of the challenges turned in the past couple of years if we are to keep the Challenge open to all, including beginners. Anything too complex will put beginners off. What are your suggestions for Challenges for next year if you think we should continue?

Should we have two levels of entrants - beginners (those that have never won a monthly Challenge) and "experts" - those that have? Would this attract more entrants? If not, how do we attract more entrants?

Is the monthly winners plaque a good idea? Do we want something similar next year, or a change to something else?

Finally, I am having less and less time to devote to the management of the Challenge and wish to step down from the role at the end of the year - so a volunteer is needed to take it forward.

Suggestions and input needed, please.


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## gregmcateer (1 Oct 2014)

I want to start by thanking you Mike and Paul and Richard for all your work. It wouldn't be possible without this.
I love seeing what people have made and keep meaning to make stuff, but kids seem to take up most of my spare time!
If it continues I think a two tier approach may be better, but more admin!, as I for one am a bit put off when I see the quality of the usual podium occupants.
Greg


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## woodfarmer (1 Oct 2014)

I have done practically no wood turning during the spring and summer as that is the time I am very busy with the farm. Things get much quieter in the winter. Also in the beginning my ability was and probably still is not good enough.

What might be good would be to have a "this months most unusual or novel project".


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## Grahamshed (1 Oct 2014)

One of the problems with entries may be the format, Personally I like it ( but have been sidelined a couple of times by lack of time ) but having monthly points leading up to an annual winner means that anyone not entering every time, or joining later in the year, has no chance of winning so may be put off and not bother.
Maybe we could have a series of independent challenges, lets say 6, each lasting 2 months, or maybe 4 quarterly challenges.


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## Walney Col (1 Oct 2014)

Grahamshed":3vy697m9 said:


> One of the problems with entries may be the format


I agree. To anyone even remotely interested in entering there's only one date per year on which everyone starts on an even footing. That alone encourages a closed shop attitude rather than one that would encourage newcomers who I imagine turn up fairly regularly all year round.

Col.


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## Melinda_dd (1 Oct 2014)

I for one would love to see the challenge continue....

However I do feel guilty when I can't enter each month!!! This year has been pretty bad for me... with broken bones in the family and commissions to complete, I haven't had any time.... then I think I've let the challenge down..... and Dodges board challenge, felt bad for not finishing that too  
Former years I've supported the challenge as much as possible and I thoroughly enjoy it.... gives me something to think about in an otherwise boring and tedious day!!! 

Now so far, those there plaques have evaded me!! be it through lack of entering, or lack of skill! 
BUT... it is top of my life's bucket list to win one... right up there with scuba dive the great barrier reef....
So yes they are a great idea in my humble opinion


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## KimG (1 Oct 2014)

I agree the format for overall winner based on points can be daunting as a miss for a month or two certainly puts you down the list a bit, naturally!

But the points system is still a very good means of grading, so rather than dispose of that why not have a system that is similar to teach month, whereby there is an end of year winner based on the points (this will certainly be a deserved win for both skill and perseverance surely?)

But alongside that you could also have a voted winner by the entrants, perhaps the basis for judgment could be the best item of the year, or some other criteria, it would at least be an opportunity for all to be in with a chance of a win based on their product rather than their ability to put in a show each month.


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## Dalboy (1 Oct 2014)

I would like to thank all those that help organise this event namely Mike and Paul and Richard also the gentleman whom made the plaques (Forgive me you name eludes me at the moment)



KimG":3qpjwlix said:


> I agree the format for overall winner based on points can be daunting as a miss for a month or two certainly puts you down the list a bit, naturally!



Watching how the scores run I agree it can only be 1 miss and you can drop down the points system. I don't enter many competitions as quite often those that I would like to compete in are way above my standard, and I think this is something that puts the beginner off from entering. Having said that I did enter the Getwoodworking one at Ally Pally with a surprise third place in the Novice section

How to run the competition is a task not to be relished and those that have done so in the past have done an amazing job. To work out a system that encourages everyone to take part is certainly not an easy one. Yes a two tier system sounds great but will there be enough entrants to fill both in another thing.
The problem being is that at the beginning of the year there are a great number who say they will take part then like other years it just dwindles down to the few.


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## J-G (1 Oct 2014)

One way to 'even out' the problem of missing months entries would be to take the average of the points earned. That way someone who (for whatever reason) can only manage to enter 3 months would have their total score divided by 3, 7 entries gets the total score divided by 7 etc.

If the adjudicators wished to multiply that figure by 12 the scoring would be on a par with the current system so historic comparisons could be made (if it were felt appropriate).

I've only entered once and as yet have no idea if my entry was acceptable but I would appreciate the opportunity to have my work judged further - I've already started to consider what sort of bangle to make. :wink:


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## henton49er (2 Oct 2014)

Thanks for all the replies so far.

There are a couple of posts [Grahamshed and Walney Col] suggesting that to be able to challenge as the "overall winner" means that you have to enter every month from January to December. As things stand this is correct, but there is a winner's plaque for each month's winner as well - it would also be possible to get rid of the overall winner's prize, other than perhaps announcing who had scored the most points in the year, if there is general agreement that the overall winner's prize is a stopping more entries.

Personally, I think that the overall winner's prize gives those who can enter each month a bit of a "gee up" to not only keep on entering but also to keep improving their standard of turning, which after all is the main purpose of the Challenge - to turn things that you would not normally do; to make you think and turn outside your own comfort zone. It all helps you to become a better turner, hopefully.

Keep the replies and comments coming.


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## Grahamshed (2 Oct 2014)

henton49er":1f67v0jc said:


> Thanks for all the replies so far.
> 
> There are a couple of posts [Grahamshed and Walney Col] suggesting that to be able to challenge as the "overall winner" means that you have to enter every month from January to December. As things stand this is correct, but there is a winner's plaque for each month's winner as well - it would also be possible to get rid of the overall winner's prize, other than perhaps announcing who had scored the most points in the year, if there is general agreement that the overall winner's prize is a stopping more entries.
> 
> ...



I did say I personally liked the current system, just looking for reasons why it always drops down towards the end


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## Tazmaniandevil (2 Oct 2014)

Well I think it should continue. I have had a lot of fun taking part, even when I have missed the deadlines.

I will not be entering anything, because I refuse to be dictated to by trolls or accused of making "BS excuses" when members of my family are gravely ill. That is completely uncalled for.
The spirit of the challenge has always been that it is open to anyone who wishes to take part. A voluntary competition should never be about making accusations or trying to force your baseless opinion on others. Therefore I choose not to participate.
On a good week, I get perhaps 2-4 hours in the shed, and for the past 3 weeks my shed has not even had the doors open. I choose to spend that precious time doing what pleases me - not what others decide what I should do. 

Long live the challenge though, and good luck to all who sail in her.


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## SteveF (2 Oct 2014)

i look forward to seeing the turned items every month
i also look forward to the results
it would be a shame to see this ended
i have only entered once

for 2 reasons:
as a novice i feel a bit intimidated
never get around to completion

i reckon a novice section one a quarter may be fun

Steve


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## Tazmaniandevil (2 Oct 2014)

SteveF":1bb9yzoe said:


> i have only entered once
> 
> for 2 reasons:
> as a novice i feel a bit intimidated


Don't be. Everyone has to start somewhere. Some of my entries have been pretty ropey, but it's what the challenge is about - trying new things.



SteveF":1bb9yzoe said:


> i have only entered once
> 
> for 2 reasons:
> never get around to completion


Many of us have that problem. I've missed the deadline and posted the result up outside the challenge thread. Folk are generally helpful and happy to point out good bits as well as bad bits.



SteveF":1bb9yzoe said:


> i reckon a novice section one a quarter may be fun


Yep. But when does one cease being a novice? Some folk may start turning and have a couple of hundred hours turning under their belt within a year, while others may have the same or less after 3 or so years.

Even if you don't enter anything, at least have a go at the challenge. It helps push you and gets you thinking about how to approach the piece.


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## Dalboy (2 Oct 2014)

SteveF":c5qdgxve said:


> for 2 reasons:
> as a novice i feel a bit intimidated
> never get around to completion
> 
> ...



Never feel intimidated just have fun it will give you practice.

As for being a Novice I am still compared to many turners I have seen not just on this site but others as well. It is surprising how long it can take to make something sometimes but then speed is not everything.

But then I just have fun


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## Wybrook (2 Oct 2014)

Firstly thanks to the organisers, it's not a fun job and I'm sure many of us take you for granted at times.

As for my thoughts, I'd love to see the challenge continue as it gives me a reason to try something different each month and while some of my attempts may leave a lot to be desired I still enter them as :

a) Even a single point is valuable !;
b) I'm sure it's depressing to the organisers when only a very few people enter, so having made (or attempted to make) something I might as well let them see I'm interested;
c) Chances are I'll never meet any of you in person, so what's there to be embarrassed about  

Ways it could change :

1) I agree about the 'miss a month and you're out of the running' comments, so some ideas:
a) take each entrant's 9 best scores - allows for some months to be missed, or for the three 'worst' scores to be discarded;
b) have extra points for the last two or three months - maybe 1.25x in October, 1.5x in November and 2x in December;
c) I'm not so keen on the 'average' score as someone who does well in the first few months may decide not to enter again for fear of reducing their average.

2) Split competitions. Again some thoughts :
a) Run an experts (i.e. previous winners) comp one month and a 'novices' (the rest of us) the other months - not ideal as it reduces the number of comps by half.
b) Have separate scoring for the 'experts' and the 'novices' - better as helps the novices compete on a more even playing field, but could be a nightmare to keep track of !
c) Stay as we are, but have a 'highest scoring novice' prize at the end of the year as well as the overall winner - feels like a reasonable compromise to me.

3) Timing - I don't know about others, but I often struggle to fit enough lathe time in in the four weeks a challenge is running. Could each competition run for eight weeks but have two running simultaneously - e.g. the competition that ends on 31st January is 'launched' on 6th December and the one that ends on 28th Feb is launched on 3rd Jan ? Also, could we have all competitions ending on a Sunday evening, giving us a final weekend to get something done ?

Hope this helps the debate.


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## Paul Hannaby (3 Oct 2014)

How about a challenge that has a slightly easier task for novices and an added element for those with a little more experience? For example a basic bowl for all entrants with the addition of feet for those with more experience.

Separating the challenge into separate competitions for novices and experts might further dilute the limited numbers of entries some months.

Another suggestion - either instead of or as well as the overall year's winner, how about the best single entry voted for by the forum members?


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## Grahamshed (3 Oct 2014)

Firstly I have to say that I think Wybrook's post is hilarious. Having stated that he will never meet any of us so what is there to be embarrassed about....... his post is followed by one from one of the judges living in the same place. 

However, what he says makes good sense and I find myself agreeing with all of it. especially using the nine best scores, It would keep the competition 'open' for much longer.
The extended deadlines could work as well.


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## Random Orbital Bob (3 Oct 2014)

I've had more kiddie sick problems so apologies for chiming in late on this:

1. I echo the thanks to the organisers, judges and plaque provider.....extremely generous of you all to give up your precious free time for the benefit of all.

2. I also wholeheartedly agree it should continue because despite dwindling participation, it is still something that personally I really look forward to and know many others feel the same. Frankly, even if on any given month only 3 entries turn up, I for one want to see them. On an aside, after the call to arms, last month I did turn a pair of candelsticks but son hospital time thwarted my attempts to get them published. So, though horribly late, I will upload them at some point. But the point is clear, people, myself included wish to participate but cant always do so due to life circumstances.

3. At my turning club we run a 3 tier system for the competiton; beginner, intermediate and advanced. I appreciate that's overkill here but I definitely think and have for some time that a beginner continually being trounced by a stunning piece buffed to oblivion so its "glinting" in the setting sun is not a happy scene! All that eventually does is demotivate the learner because they cant compete. I recall some learning theory from many training courses ago which went along the lines of: learning requires a journey outside your comfort zone and into your learning zone. If well coached, you should not reach your panic zone. I think what we are seeing is not so much learners entering their panic zone but more their "being embarrassed in public" zone! I believe it beyond question that the broad range of differing standards on show are crying out to have the playing field levelled. We're asking Rotherham United to play Barcelona (in public and televised) and then wonder why Rotherham stop at Harry Ramsden's on the way to the game and never leave!!

4. Many of the measures suggested to remedy that situation are pretty sensible it seems to me but above all, in my view, novices should be competing with novices.
5. Lastly I would certainly not want this to have the opposite effect and discourage the big guns because their output is a large part of the inspiration, that's the goal we want to get to so its only about the scoring. I don't know what the solution is but its along the lines of a golf handicap system. That is universally accepted as a reasonable way to pit experienced vs non experienced in a way in which the playing field has been levelled.

But don't stop it, its far too valuable to take dwindling participation as the only measure of its worth.


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## henton49er (3 Oct 2014)

Wybrook":2wax5cwh said:


> 3) Timing - I don't know about others, but I often struggle to fit enough lathe time in in the four weeks a challenge is running. Could each competition run for eight weeks but have two running simultaneously - e.g. the competition that ends on 31st January is 'launched' on 6th December and the one that ends on 28th Feb is launched on 3rd Jan ? Also, could we have all competitions ending on a Sunday evening, giving us a final weekend to get something done ?



As this year's organiser, I would just say that it is enough trouble running one competition without having two going simultaneously - it would "do my head in" trying to keep all the stuff separate - but someone more organised than me might be able to!!

Otherwise, IMO some good suggestions from Wybrook.


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## Grahamshed (3 Oct 2014)

I reckon Random Orbital Bob would be good at running this next year.


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## Dalboy (3 Oct 2014)

Not wanting to put a dampener on the two tier system. But who decides what is "Novice" and "Advanced".
There are those out there that are great turners without entering a competition. It is such a difficult thing to define


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## J-G (3 Oct 2014)

Dalboy":67vkqvue said:


> Not wanting to put a dampener on the two tier system. But who decides what is "Novice" and "Advanced".
> There are those out there that are great turners without entering a competition. It is such a difficult thing to define


This same issue came to my mind and it's taken me a few days to think of a possible resolution. 

The entrant could specify which section they were entering with the caveat that an adjudicator could modify that in the light of previous results.

There is also the issue that whilst one may well be competent in (say) spindle turning but done little or no bowl turning or hollowing - or even the other way around.

The more you think about it the more difficult it becomes #-o


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## henton49er (3 Oct 2014)

Dalboy":2c8zame2 said:


> Not wanting to put a dampener on the two tier system. But who decides what is "Novice" and "Advanced".
> There are those out there that are great turners without entering a competition. It is such a difficult thing to define



I had tentatively suggested that anyone who has won a monthly Challenge could no longer enter as a novice, but would have to enter the "advanced" section, but there must be other ways of splitting the entrants to give newbies a chance of some "glory".


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## Walney Col (3 Oct 2014)

Never won = novice section
Won less than 3 times = intermediate section
Won 3 or more = advanced section

That ought to keep it simple enough to work out assuming we use this years list of winners as the base line.


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## ajmw89 (3 Oct 2014)

As a complete newbie to this turning lark, I thought I'd throw my tuppence in.

I only picked up turning tools and had a go for the first time a few weeks ago. I joined this forum about the same time (even though I'd been lurking for a while)

I think the monthly challenge is a good thing, both for novices and experts as it may give those of us inspiration for a new project. I haven't had time to take part in the september challenge due to cricketing commitments, however now the season is over, that should free up some time. I will be attempting the october challenge and aim to find time to complete the other challenges, as I think it is also a good way to test myself and learn other skills that revolve aound woodturning.

Thanks,

Adam


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## henton49er (3 Oct 2014)

Walney Col":3c1ms7hk said:


> Never won = novice section
> Won less than 3 times = intermediate section
> Won 3 or more = advanced section
> 
> That ought to keep it simple enough to work out assuming we use this years list of winners as the base line.



Something that simple is probably the only realistic way of keeping tabs on which section people should be in. We could even backtrack a few years to find previous winners (e.g. me) who would have to go into the advanced section (gulp!).


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## Walney Col (3 Oct 2014)

Speaking as someone who's just bought their first wood turning lathe and not yet completed my first bowl I'd like to take part in the competition just for the camaraderie and the opportunity to learn but see little point in doing so in direct competition with professionals who've been doing it for years.


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## Random Orbital Bob (3 Oct 2014)

some good ideas there. Essentially, just like golf handicaps or tennis seeding, each entrant needs to be "calibrated" so they can be assigned a status category. I don't see why we don't just trial Walney's "rule of 3" and see how it goes.

The logic for this is that, like the pro sports we need to be calibrated and since there is no precedent we need to just trial something that sounds sensible, monitor it for a few months and feedback if it works. I see no other way of moving forward. No solution will be perfect so we just need to trial one and monitor. Change mid-stream if it causes problems and basically prototype the process.

I entirely agree with Dalboy et al that its a thankless task trying to lump folks into a category arbitrarily so, again Walney's plan seems as good as any to me. The only other means of categorising that occurred to me was hours on the clock ie how long you've been turning for. Obviously a ten year veteran will be better than the person just back from Axy with his/her new lathe but beyond that the variability is hugely confused by the actual hours spent turning. 

So I vote we try Walney's "rule of 3"

And Graham....awfully sweet of you to volunteer me but I only became a mod a few months back and I've just been made secretary of the BWA turning club so my spare time seems to be ebbing faster than a spring tide! Perhaps you could do it


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## Wybrook (3 Oct 2014)

Grahamshed":1z6v2vzn said:


> Firstly I have to say that I think Wybrook's post is hilarious. Having stated that he will never meet any of us so what is there to be embarrassed about....... his post is followed by one from one of the judges living in the same place.



Gloucestershire's a big place and I think Paul's down in the deepest darkest forest on the other side of the river. I try to keep away from there as on maps it's still marked as _*'There be dragons'*_ :lol:

(There are some good bike tracks though, I think they're mainly around the dragon's nests)


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## Grahamshed (4 Oct 2014)

Wybrook":389g5wt3 said:


> Grahamshed":389g5wt3 said:
> 
> 
> > Firstly I have to say that I think Wybrook's post is hilarious. Having stated that he will never meet any of us so what is there to be embarrassed about....... his post is followed by one from one of the judges living in the same place.
> ...


 ccasion5: \/ \/
Good answer


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## CHJ (4 Oct 2014)

Paul Hannaby":4gd7dgio said:


> How about a challenge that has a slightly easier task for novices and an added element for those with a little more experience? For example a basic bowl for all entrants with the addition of feet for those with more experience.
> 
> ..


I see merit in this, take as small box for instance. 
Plain design using single wood species. (automatcally categorised as Novice/beginner category) criteria being proportions/aesthetics.
Decorated design, single/multiple woods (automatically categorised as advanced)

Like Paul's bowl with/without feet, category is by choice of challenge selected without having to classify entrants status, a great bowl turner may be less confident fitting mating parts or spindle turning/ decoration and can choose the content attempted.
Can't see a proficient turner submitting stuff in the novice category just to gain points if they are capable of producing more complex.


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## sammo (5 Oct 2014)

I would like the monthly comp's to continue - they challenge me to improve my skills, the critique is often very good and again helps me improve.


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## xraymtb (6 Oct 2014)

I think part of the problem is that many forum users are not confident turners that have spent many years perfecting their craft - I would imagine the majority are in fact hobby turners with limited shop time (as little as a couple of hours a week perhaps) that are still working on simpler items. These people (and I include myself) might be looking at the challenges and preferring to spend time practicing more common items - bowls, plates, boxes.

I'm aware some users like that the challenge opens new horizons but if my choice is to spend my few hours I have turning something that doesnt appeal to me then I wont do it. I'll spend my time turning what interests me and what is likely to be used.

Perhaps the challenge needs to cater for the basics more - if only 5 people are willing to try this months, then maybe it's too hard or too out of touch with what the users want? How about a 'simple bowl, no embellishments' challenge to focus on basic form, tool handling and encourage the less skilled to take part? Or perhaps even a copy challenge - show an item (again make it popular - bowl, box etc.) and have entrants try to recreate it. It could even take the form of a tutorial type event that shows users how to turn something and judges their attempts.


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## Walney Col (6 Oct 2014)

I like the sound of that Mike and it'd certainly encourage me to enter.


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## rob39 (7 Oct 2014)

Don't have a lathe just yet but would be interested in a beginner section


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## procell (7 Oct 2014)

I too would like to thank not only the organisers but also those who have sent in entries. I am amazed at the variation in peoples interpretation of the briefs each month. 

It will be a shame if the challenge does not continue. The idea of having to make something that complies with a defined set of rules is great as it gets the grey matter stirring. The suggestion of an average score for each persons entries over the year does seem to be a way for those who can not enter every month to stand a chance in the yearly competition. Maybe this could be in addition to the yearly total prize?

Although I have not entered pieces every month I have at least tried to make something according to each challenge. (its just that most have been failures)


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## Blister (8 Oct 2014)

Some of you may remember that I started the challenge some years ago 

The original idea was to encourage people to turn and show what they have made , liven up the woodturing section on the forum 
My opinion would be keep it simple , Turn , enjoy your turning and the turnings of other


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Oct 2014)

Come on, Blister - show us some of your creations since you went AWOL!


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## xraymtb (10 Oct 2014)

One issue with an average score is that a bad month affects your score negatively, so whilst you might currently enter with something that isn't perfect but is what you got done in time, with an average you might decide to not enter if your work isn't as good as hoped.


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## Woodmonkey (10 Oct 2014)

I agree with blister, keep it simple, enter for the fun of entering and just have a go. I can't see a simple way of dividing the entrants into beginners and non-beginners that wouldn't end in controversy due to people ending up in what they consider to be the wrong category. I personally think it would be a shame for the competition to end, but if the scoring aspect is putting people off to the extent that we're only getting a handful of entries each month then maybe just have it as an idea each month for people to have a go at and do away with the scoring altogether.


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## Random Orbital Bob (10 Oct 2014)

That actually makes a fair bit of sense. We could literally abolish scoring altogether and just enter pieces for the fun and the challenge of stretching the skill in different directions. To be honest its the bit afterwards where the techniques and approaches get discussed that I find the most valuable. Take that Celtic knot that Graham did that time......extremely useful to air the technique and then deconstruct it so we can all have a go. That's what floats my boat. The winning versus otherwise.....not so much.


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## gregmcateer (10 Oct 2014)

Woodmonkey":2agcsorf said:


> I agree with blister, keep it simple, enter for the fun of entering and just have a go. I can't see a simple way of dividing the entrants into beginners and non-beginners that wouldn't end in controversy due to people ending up in what they consider to be the wrong category. I personally think it would be a shame for the competition to end, but if the scoring aspect is putting people off to the extent that we're only getting a handful of entries each month then maybe just have it as an idea each month for people to have a go at and do away with the scoring altogether.



+1 from me


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## ajmw89 (10 Oct 2014)

Maybe do away with the points scoring throughout the year. Still have a monthly winner that is voted for by the entrants only? Most votes wins and you can't vote for yourself?

That way people can enter when they get time and not feel intimidated by a yearly comp.


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## CHJ (10 Oct 2014)

I can personally see how awarding points from a professional judges point of view may put a novice off putting their items on public view but I think it's a vital step to understanding the criteria that the majority of the fraternity place on form and workmanship.

Having said that there are few months where my personal rating of a piece and its pecking order matches the judges 100% and I guess if the item was seen in the flesh as in a club competition it would be even different for both judge and myself.

(this is born out by members variation on ratings)

The re-appraisal of the individual pieces following the judges comments though, I find invaluable in understanding other aspects of form or entrenching my own preferences.

I don't think anyone should feel embarrassed at their efforts and not show what they have achieved, at least they are in a small group of 'Elite' individuals who have been willing to stand up and be counted as a means of improving their own skills.

This is the outlook I embraced when I started my turnings and posted on the forum and my website, some of the pieces were dire on the form front, ( still are!) but I was able to master finish at an early stage and took that hurdle with pride as one of the things I could not be critiqued for.


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## winemaker (11 Oct 2014)

I would like the challenge to continue as it is. I know I will not win (not worried if I win or loose just love turning) as I have a lot of leaning to do, But it challenges me to make something I would have not tryed My thanks to all who take part =D> and the Judges =D> normally =D> =D>


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## Grahamshed (11 Oct 2014)

I agree with winemaker 
I also like having the more skilful turners in the same challenge, that is how I will be able to tell when I am getting closer to them.


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## Walney Col (11 Oct 2014)

Seems to me there's a lot more people saying they like the wood turning challenge as it is than there are entrants.


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## Random Orbital Bob (11 Oct 2014)

LOL...this threads a classic.....we started being very convinced we needed to change and the longer we leave it, the more we're talking ourselves round to remaining the same. It's good stuff this 
Give it another fortnight and I predict......the challenge is rubbish...it should be banned


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## Grahamshed (11 Oct 2014)

Seems to me we are merrily chatting about one thing ( the form of the contest) while ignoring the main question of who is going to run it.


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## winemaker (12 Oct 2014)

Grahamshed":3g66q6d1 said:


> Seems to me we are merrily chatting about one thing ( the form of the contest) while ignoring the main question of who is going to run it.


 =D> =D> =D> good point


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## henton49er (15 Oct 2014)

Well, this thread has been open now for two weeks. We do not seem to be any nearer deciding whether the Challenge should continue, what form it should take if it is to continue, and who is going to run it.

The first thing we need, IMO, is a volunteer to run the Challenge. He (or she) can then take forward the issue of the form of the Challenge and then agree a list of Challenge items for next year.

If nobody comes forward to run it, then the Challenge will not run next year.

Who's up for it??


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## Grahamshed (17 Oct 2014)

Hi Mike
Not having much luck here but I do believe people want the challenge to continue.
Couple of questions to gee us all up.......
1... What EXACTLY is involved ?
2... Are the judges happy to continue ?


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## henton49er (17 Oct 2014)

Grahamshed":1n7z9rty said:


> 1... What EXACTLY is involved ?
> 2... Are the judges happy to continue ?




Monthly actions for the organiser:-

PM the proposed judge to get his agreement to be the judge each month
Draft the rules (a bit of thinking time required here as well)
send to the judge for comment / agreement and take comments on board for a final version of the rules
[The above three items I have been doing mid-month in preparation for the next month's challenge]
Post the draft rules and send a PM to Mods to make them a sticky thread (also asking Mods to unstick any thread that are no longer needed)
Respond to any queries on the rules and exchange PMs with the judge if there is anything that needs his input
Post a new thread for the entries just before the stated time for posting entries (I have done this up to 24 hours ahead, but also up to 12 hours late on occasions!!]
PM the Mods to lock the entries thread after the posting time is over
PM the judge to remind him that entries are ready for judging
Calculate entrants' scores and put onto spreadsheet
Add judge's scores and work out ranking for overall scores
Work out the "year to date" positions
Post a new thread of the results and PM Mods to make it a sticky
PM the winner for his/her postal address
Pack up and post the winner's plaque

All the above is the monthly schedule - I made up my own spreadsheet, which is quite simple if you can use Excel or similar. For the number of entries we have been getting (under 15 each month) a piece of paper and a pencil would do just as well! There is also the need in advance of the year's Challenge to agree a list of the monthly Challenges.

2. The new Challenge organiser will need to PM Paul Hannaby and Richard Findley to see if they want to continue; I have not made any enquiries in this respect.

Hope this helps.


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## boysie39 (18 Oct 2014)

Hi all, I have enjoyed the challenge from day one ,both as a participant and now as spectator. When Blister(Alan Wells ) first started this great competition I don't think many people realized how much work has to be put in by the person taking on the running of it .

Mick has outlined what is involved and I know that it is going to be very hard to get someone who has the time and ability to take on such a task .I think that if people are finding it hard to find the time to make an entry the challenge may have run it's course .
It saddens me to have to say this as one who was lucky enough to have had a win and now as someone who just looks forward to seeing entries and enjoying the anticipation of the results .
I would like to think that maybe somebody might still keep the flag flying and it can continue .

God Bless .


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## SteveF (18 Oct 2014)

i have only entered once
just the thought of competition disappearing is saddening
i have made an attempt this month and will do my best to continue doing so

hope it continues

Steve


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## dennisk (21 Oct 2014)

I would like the challenge to continue. To me , it doesnt matter if there are prizes, or a year end title. I just want to turn something different every month, and as I have said in the past, many months it is the only time I get on the lathe. Would it be possible to develop a list of projects for next year, and have monthly show and tell, voted on by the entrants , or perhaps anyone on the forum who wants to vote. Keep all requrements the same as for time of entering, picture size, etc.
This way there is no pressure to perform every month, and we still get to enjoy all the different ideas that people come up with. ???????


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## DiscoStu (21 Oct 2014)

I don't have a lathe so my opinion is irrelevant really as I won't be competing, but I've been enjoying seeing what everyone has made. So as long as we still get to see how many talented people there are then I don't mind what you guys do! It's great!


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## Walney Col (21 Oct 2014)

I think a monthly show and tell voted on by any forum member interested enough to have an opinion is great.

Can the members set up a poll on this site easily enough?


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## boysie39 (21 Oct 2014)

dennisk":ov4q59km said:


> I would like the challenge to continue. To me , it doesnt matter if there are prizes, or a year end title. I just want to turn something different every month, and as I have said in the past, many months it is the only time I get on the lathe. Would it be possible to develop a list of projects for next year, and have monthly show and tell, voted on by the entrants , or perhaps anyone on the forum who wants to vote. Keep all requrements the same as for time of entering, picture size, etc.
> This way there is no pressure to perform every month, and we still get to enjoy all the different ideas that people come up with. ???????


Hi all. Having read this post from " Dennisk " I would think that something along these lines may be a way to rescue the challenge .
Maybe if those interested put their heads together and worked along these lines they might come up with something which won't put too much pressure on any one member to run it . I don't mean by this to form a panel or committee but just through the forum to suggest a way that without putting too much pressure on one person that the whole forum can vote for the winner each month and the resultant winning vote be posted by the "Mods " each month . Just my thought  :roll:


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## Grahamshed (22 Oct 2014)

This is going nowhere, yet none of us want to see the challenge end.
I do not have the time to run the competition as it is now but I will offer up an alternative and run that if members are happy with it.
I have reread this thread and taken many of the thoughts into account but welcome others thoughts and opinions.

NEW COMP
Four totally independent challenges a year. Spring, Summer, Autumn & Winter. This gives plenty of time to practice and make entry .Judged as they are now, ( ie. judges and entrants)
At end of year forum members pick an overall winner ( or 2 ? )

Combined normal/advanced sections with contestant choosing which he wants to enter. So 2 winners each quarter. Contestants can make more than one entry if they wish and can enter both sections if they wish. (I am assuming experienced turners would find little kudos in winning the beginners section but some beginners would like to pit themselves against more advanced turners)

So…. Maybe
Spring - Box – simple or complex shape and decoration
Summer - Bowl - simple or complex shape and decoration
Autumn - Pair candlesticks - simple or complex shape and decoration
Winter - Goblet - simple or complex shape and decoration
Therefore we have two faceplate / hollowing items, one spindle item, and one combination item.
……..

This would be dependant on Richard and Paul being willing to continue as judges,

The presentation of awards like this year would be dependant of forum member Daven being prepared to make them again and members being prepared to make donations to cover the costs. ( perhaps Mick could tell us how that worked out this year )


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## boysie39 (23 Oct 2014)

Good on you Graham , seeing the length of time that has elapsed since you posted your interest in running I would think you are a strong contender for the job .I would suggest that if no other applicants are received by Midnight Sunday 26th October you are the new Ceo. of the Challenge . =D> =D> 

This should give others who may be interested plenty of time to make themselves known ,or offer some imput as to the running of the Challenge .Graham has stated he would listen to other views should anyone wish to have an imput so let your views be known .

My view is that if this is allowed to drag on any longer it will just die out. I have no idea how a poll or a voting system is organized on here but if the MODS could put up a yes or no poll it would be great .

I shall now sit and wait for the shmuck to hit the FAN .


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## henton49er (24 Oct 2014)

Grahamshed":zqz3mjp1 said:


> The presentation of awards like this year would be dependant of forum member Daven being prepared to make them again and members being prepared to make donations to cover the costs. ( perhaps Mick could tell us how that worked out this year )



Hi Graham,

This time last year, when I agreed to run the Challenge for 2014, I asked for voluntary donations not exceeding £5 from forum members. I received a total of about £65+, of which approx. £40 went to Daven for the manufacture of the plaques (you could search for the threads to get the exact amounts, but I don't think that is what you are after).

I have spent all the rest in posting out the plaques to the winners (Its that DennisK in Canada who is costing too much in postage, and he keeps on winning - I must tap up the judges for the remaining three months!! :lol: :lol: ), but will keep going to the end of the year.

Hope this helps.


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## Grahamshed (24 Oct 2014)

Thanks Mike.
Two days without any comment by likely entrants...... Not sure what to think of that. !!!


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## Woodmonkey (24 Oct 2014)

Fair play Graham for stepping up, I did think about volunteering but I'm not the most organised person in the world, it would most likely end up a shambles. I think four times a year would give people more time so maybe would increase the number of entrants which is good, I'm still not sure about having two categories, I'm not a beginner but neither would I consider myself to be an expert, I suspect a lot of the turners on here would put themselves somewhere in between....
As for the challenges themselves, maybe have a separate thread with everyone's suggestions and pick the four best?


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## dennisk (24 Oct 2014)

Well I did make a suggestion re a monthly show and tell without prizes,as I believe Mister Blister intended originally. This way there is no pressure to turn every month, but there is still a monthly project, so to speak. Would it be possible to to the voting without a whole lot of work from anyone? Not a computer guy so not sure how hard , or easy that would be to set up. Thx dk


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## KimG (24 Oct 2014)

I have refrained from commenting till I saw all options, I did consider doing the task, but like Dennis, I doubt I would be organized enough to keep it up, that wouldn't be fair to others then. 

Graham I think it's great you have offered to have a go at it, and I like your idea too. It is nice for sure to have a bash each month if you can, but a seasonal one works for me too. Don't be put off by a lack of response, it doesn't signify indifference, more that people are often uncertain about how to respond quite often, well, without sounding glib at least.


Been some very good suggestions in this thread but most of us are a bit wary of biting off more than we can chew I suspect.


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## Waka (25 Oct 2014)

I have been through the posts in this thread with interest.
Being just a fraction above the novice stage I, like many others are possibly intimidated by the excellent turning projects that have been on show. Non the less if we are to learn and get constructive feedback from more experience members of the forum, it can only be positive for us novices.

Being retired and having little time I would find a monthly challenge exerting too much pressure, but having a seasonal competition gives more time to allow for all the failures, before producing the finished article.

Speaking as a novice + I would be interested in taking part in 2015.


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## ericdockum (25 Oct 2014)

Just like to say I am in a similar situation as Waka, and have the same comments. Although retired, I am a Carer for an elderly parent, and other family commitments mean that being retired does not give me all the time I expected to have.. So I also might be able to produce a "novice" piece that could go in a quarterly comp... 

Sounds like I just made a commitment. (Never yet made a box though).

I visit here usually 2x a day, just to learn and admire the experts here. (I don't bother logging in, just click a tab on my toolbar). I have learnt much of the theory and have a notebook of ideas shamelessly stolen, waiting for my skill level to increase. It also stimulates me to try new techniques which I would never have thought of. I see myself as a sort of Apprentice at the moment, learning by doing but limited competence.

I also look at the competition pieces and dream that one day it will be me. Downside is that I seem also to have learnt to spot faults in my work faster than I learn to correct them. On the upside I have a good collection of wood shavings for the fire now the winter is coming.

So thanks to you all, I suspect the forum is much appreciated by a lot of people who do not often post.


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## boysie39 (25 Oct 2014)

Grahamshed":eicb9kl9 said:


> Thanks Mike.
> Two days without any comment by likely entrants...... Not sure what to think of that. !!!



Hi Graham ,Im sure it must feel like you have made a bid on evil bay and watching every move ,I know I am .   
The fact that nobody has offered a challenge to you ,I would take as a compliment to the postal service that all your threatening letters have been delivered on time . :evil: :evil: :lol: :lol: Just my twisted mind at work  .

Blister , Nev , and Henton49er ,have done wonderful work over the years for the Challenge and I feel sure they would offer any help they could to whoever takes over the running of the Challenge .

Mike ,I on my own behalf would like to thank you for your imput and the little extras you added in your time as Challenge organizer ,You did a great job and have set a high standard for those that follow ,thank you and all for the pleasure I got .


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## Grahamshed (27 Oct 2014)

OK, Since nobody has said otherwise, it looks as if I am running a cut down version of the challenge for next year. I need to get hold of the judges and see if they are willing to continue then I will start a new post to finalise the details.


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## Random Orbital Bob (27 Oct 2014)

Nice one Graham....good man.


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## SteveF (27 Oct 2014)

congrats on taking the job Graham
the comp will at least continue which is great news
can i put a 2 penny into the mix
there has been a few posts of bangles recently
without them i would never had worked out how to make one
but
now having seen the "rejects" \ "trial runs" why would a novice even show theirs


please don't burn me down in flames
i have made one..i will show it
but i do feel so intimidated

Steve


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## Tazmaniandevil (28 Oct 2014)

Grahamshed":2v3s08yn said:


> OK, Since nobody has said otherwise, it looks as if I am running a cut down version of the challenge for next year. I need to get hold of the judges and see if they are willing to continue then I will start a new post to finalise the details.


Good news Graham. Vive la challenge!



SteveF":2v3s08yn said:


> now having seen the "rejects" \ "trial runs" why would a novice even show theirs


Get your bangle out for the boys, and girls obviously.
I got a comment on a bowl elsewhere recently, which was along the lines, "you should be proud of everything you finish, and not be afraid to show it."
There's a lot of truth in that.
One of the good points of the challenge is we push ourselves to try something we would normally never attempt.
The first turning I put up here was, in hindsight, terrible. I was proud of it however, because it was recognisable as what it was intended to be. I was given some critique, which I took on board. It was not nasty in any way, just honest - and encouraging at the same time. There may be the odd twunt who just wants to show off or stir things up, but by and large the membership here is very friendly and supportive.


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## Grahamshed (28 Oct 2014)

Well said Taz

One of the advantages of a quarterly challenge is the practice time and I am hoping to use the thread for each challenge as a discussion point and somewhere to place Youtube links etc so we can learn what we need to know.


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## Random Orbital Bob (28 Oct 2014)

Agreed. The old adage applies......no one ever learned to ski without falling over!


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## Grahamshed (28 Oct 2014)

Back on the slippery slope Rob ?


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## Random Orbital Bob (28 Oct 2014)

Not sure I ever left :shock:


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## boysie39 (28 Oct 2014)

Best of luck Graham , Ilook forward to seeing what you intend doing for the coming year . 
I hope that most of all you get enjoyment out of the Challenge as well .

Good luck and Take care .


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## Dalboy (28 Oct 2014)

I for one have enjoyed entering this year and have watched it for a while before that. I think that all those that have taken up the challenge of organising and judging this have done a wonderful job. Like many I can't volunteer because of time restraints even though I no longer work. Like next month I have hospital appointment which I know is going to lay me up for a week at most 



Grahamshed":2f5eiiu4 said:


> OK, Since nobody has said otherwise, it looks as if I am running a cut down version of the challenge for next year. I need to get hold of the judges and see if they are willing to continue then I will start a new post to finalise the details.



Well one Graham I have found it a struggle some months and did say to Mike that I possible would not be entering next year, but your Idea of only a few throughout may give me the chance to enter something




SteveF":2f5eiiu4 said:


> congrats on taking the job Graham
> the comp will at least continue which is great news
> can i put a 2 penny into the mix
> there has been a few posts of bangles recently
> ...



I have in the past put up picture of my failed attempts, not with the intention of putting people off. I did realise that it could do that so stopped doing it. So if it has put anyone off I do apologise and hold my hand up for being guilty    
The only thing I did was the WIP on how to hopefully to encourage others to have a go. I know one person who it made their cheeks flutter a bit :wink: :wink: :twisted: :lol: :lol: No names mentioned :lol:


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## heatherw (25 Nov 2014)

Hi everyone,

If Graham takes over, I would hope to be able to take part in two of the challenges next year. I felt bad about abandoning you all this year, but I'm not currently living with my lathe........

Actually it's all the fault of the challenge. I enjoyed it so much that it started all kinds of processes in my brain and I ended up applying to go back to college to study art and design. Which is where I am now and which is utterly fascinating, but it doesn't involve lathe work. 

It would be a shame to see the challenge die. I might be able to run it the year after if no one else can, we'll see. Like everyone else, I love to see the entries. Maybe we could do a couple of off the cuff spontaneous challenges occasionally, some of them aimed at novices, possibly having to copy something as faithfully as possible, just to get the skills up?


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