# I want a new bowl gouge



## graduate_owner (20 Jun 2017)

Hi all, looking for opinions on a bowl gouge. I already have a superflute and have been looking to buy a second bowl gouge from Axminster ( vouchers !!). I was thinking of a Crown cryo. Has anyone tried these? Is it worth the extra over say an Axminster premium, I believe both are M2 HSS, or should I go further and get the M 42 Crown Razor Edge?.

Any ideas?

K


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## finneyb (20 Jun 2017)

The advantage of cryo as I understand it is that it holds its edge longer. So it depends if you are a production turner who needs to save time or is time not critical.

Personally, as a hobby turner I wouldn't justify the extra expense.

Being a cynic I see cryo as merely a marketing tool - got to have something new to sell whether it's need or not. 

Brian


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## andy43 (20 Jun 2017)

graduate_owner":3pcaewga said:


> Hi all, looking for opinions on a bowl gouge. I already have a superflute and have been looking to buy a second bowl gouge from Axminster ( vouchers !!). I was thinking of a Crown cryo. Has anyone tried these? Is it worth the extra over say an Axminster premium, I believe both are M2 HSS, or should I go further and get the M 42 Crown Razor Edge?.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> K



I have the Crown cryo and the m42 bowl gouges, both great tools that hold their edge a lot longer than my axminster one did
cheers
Andy


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## duncanh (20 Jun 2017)

andy43":17z49t18 said:


> I have the Crown cryo and the m42 bowl gouges, both great tools that hold their edge a lot longer than my axminster one did
> cheers
> Andy



That could just be down to a poor quality Axminster gouge. I started out with their set and the bowl gouge was pretty poor (mainly in the shape, being more of a spindle gouge profile).


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## gregmcateer (20 Jun 2017)

andy43":2bpcy7mc said:


> I have the Crown cryo and the m42 bowl gouges, both great tools that hold their edge a lot longer than my axminster one did
> cheers
> Andy



Andy,
Is the M42 worth the extra expense over the 'normal' Cryo? Any idea how much longer an edge will last by comparison?
TIA
Greg


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## SVB (20 Jun 2017)

What size superflute do you have. If you have a grind you like, perhaps a smaller / larger version is an option. I have a HS1 (5/8" - my 'go to' gouge') as well as 3/8 and 1/4, all SF and make a really nice range for 99% of tasks. 

An alternative option would be to go for a dedicated gouge for finishing bottom of deeper bowls ground at something like 80 deg. I have a 'long handled' 3/8" crown gouge that I use for this (flute shape secondary) that works well. 

S


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## woodfarmer (20 Jun 2017)

I have a crown cryo 3/8 gouge that came is a set. also a crown cryo 1/2" This is my favourite tool. You will not be disappointed by it. all the cryo tools are good I even use the skew chisel as a negative rake scraper.


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## Mark Hancock (21 Jun 2017)

duncanh":23xf0lsz said:


> andy43":23xf0lsz said:
> 
> 
> > I have the Crown cryo and the m42 bowl gouges, both great tools that hold their edge a lot longer than my axminster one did
> ...



If the Axminster set you are referring to is the one with just HSS in black on the shaft then is a lower quality HSS probably imported. The Axminster PREMIUM range however is I believe made by Hamlet with better quality M2 HSS.

The issue when buying a bowl gouge is to consider the flute profile and the grind you want to use. The Superflute HS1 (designed by Peter Child) is more V in section as opposed to the U section on many standard gouges (but even these vary with each manufacturer). Then there are the parabolic flutes as in the Crown Ellsworth gouge and the Hamlet Masterflute. I personally find the U and parabolic profiles are better for swept back grinds and the Superflute for an older style traditional grind.


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## gregmcateer (21 Jun 2017)

This is all adding up to a 'Try before you buy' adage, as far as I can see.

As each turner will have a favourite style - grind and flute, I guess the only way one really knows if it's 'right' for them, is to have a proper go with one.

I'd still like to know user experience of longevity with the Cryo and RazorEdge (compared with standard and also each other)


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## graduate_owner (21 Jun 2017)

Lots to consider here,xand hanks for the replies. Does anyone have experience of the Axminster premium range? Or indeed of the Hamlet range, if they make Axminster premium?

The thing is, I don't see the point in paying £50+ for a Crown razoredge if the difference in quality between that and a £27 Axminster premium is marginal. I could buy two Axminster gouges for the price of one Crown, but I don't want to regret the purchase later - buy cheap etc.
K


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## Dalboy (21 Jun 2017)

Mark Baker came down to our club just outside Canterbury last month and he brought some M42 tools to use and he found that they where great as they did not need to be sharpened as much as standard HSS tools.


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## CHJ (21 Jun 2017)

I've recently run the gamut of the Nuneaton Axminster store to pick up a replacement thin diamond parting tool, I went for their 'premium' version mainly because it was the size and proportions I was after.

No complaints about the steel in use, but the 'finish' was none existent with form grinding burrs down all the long edges that had to be honed off (easily done with a coarse grit block) before using as it would not slide along the tool rest because the were sharp and digging in.

If it lasts as long as the hamlet one I have that is getting a little short for use on some tasks I can see it lasting me out.

Amazingly did manage to get out of the doors without loosing the wallet, helped somewhat by those Ghastly Mustard coloured machines stood by the sales counter.
For the life of me I can't bring myself to accept that Powermatic trade mark colour.


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## gregmcateer (21 Jun 2017)

CHJ":1p0xm7cl said:


> ... helped somewhat by those Ghastly Mustard coloured machines stood by the sales counter.
> For the life of me I can't bring myself to accept that Powermatic trade mark colour.



Hee hee. The colour does seem to divide opinion more strongly even than a sharpening thread!! 

Apparently they are beasts of machines, though. I have to admit that if I had the money for a thumping lathe I would certainly not leave them off the shortlist - probably lucky I don't have the money (or more importantly, the permission  )


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## CHJ (21 Jun 2017)

gregmcateer":2jz1klk2 said:


> Apparently they are beasts of machines, though.



Glad to say my old 1HP machine does all that I need, in fact I would be very pushed to do any turning that required more horsepower, even with the appropriate tooling used correctly it would require more physical input on my behalf than I'm inclined to attempt these days.

In fact was only surveying the tooling rack yesterday and trying to work out when some of the heavier weight tooling last got used, think a clear-out is on the horizon as years let alone months came into the musings.

My ideal for the type of turning I enjoy would be a good wood machine head on a metal lathe bed giving me the equivalent of a middling sized pattern makers lathe.

If I did not have a small metal lathe I'd seriously think of fitting a Cross Slide Milling Table to my existing machine as an alternate tool rest/holder as a compromise.

Apologise for taking your thread off course Keith, my ramblings of no help at all to your purchasing decision.


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## Br5d (22 Jun 2017)

duncanh":78tmcdda said:


> andy43":78tmcdda said:
> 
> 
> > (mainly in the shape, being more of a spindle gouge profile).



Did you not think to reshape it yourself? A few minutes on the grinder would sort it out. Most profiles are variations of standard profiles...


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2017)

Br5d":3bd0k7q6 said:


> duncanh":3bd0k7q6 said:
> 
> 
> > andy43":3bd0k7q6 said:
> ...



The old 'Perform' Bowl Gouge has a very shallow flute , more akin to what is considered a spindle gouge these days.


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Jun 2017)

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that profile being referred to as general purpose.


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## duncanh (23 Jun 2017)

Thanks for saving me the time needed to hunt out the photo took Chas. Yes, that's the Axminster Perform 'bowl' gouge which I have and it is fairly useless as a bowl gouge compared to one with a deeper flute with either a traditional or swept back grind.
I haven't checked the gouge in store, but they still sell what looks like the same set and I suspect the gouge will be the same as it was when I bought approx. 10 years ago


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2017)

duncanh":2a2vmp78 said:


> Thanks for saving me the time needed to hunt out the photo took Chas. Yes, that's the Axminster Perform 'bowl' gouge which I have and it is fairly useless as a bowl gouge compared to one with a deeper flute with either a traditional or swept back grind.
> I haven't checked the gouge in store, but they still sell what looks like the same set and I suspect the gouge will be the same as it was when I bought approx. 10 years ago


Yep, had mine 12 years, don't think it's been put into service more than a couple of times in the last 11.
Some day I suspect it will get the working end modified to get into some nook or cranny, the spindle gouge from the same stable was modified into a detail 'get in there' species several years ago.


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## graduate_owner (23 Jun 2017)

Chas, you mentioned your ideal would be a wood lathe headstock with a metal lathe bed, from what I could gather. You could try doing what I have done which is to get a spare spindle, in my case from a graduate, and hold it in the chuck of my metal lathe ( Colchester Master). My Axminster evolution chuck then can be used on the graduate or colchester, without removing the work if need be. I haven't used the colchester set up for actual wood turning yet, but for drilling end grain it works great. I have the rigidity of the colchester bed, plus a 3HP motor driving through a gearbox with speeds down to about 50 rpm.
I bought the spare spindle because it was cheap and I thought it might come in handy - I didn't have my colchester then. Of course, you could always cut a suitable thread yourself.

Back to my original theme - is the Hamlet / Axminster premium bowl gouge deep fluted?


K


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2017)

I have a spare ISO backplate that fits my small 9X20 metal lathe that gets used occasionally to fit my ISO wood chucks for those jobs more at home and simply easier to do that way.

Frustratingly the 9X20 can't go down to my wood lathe 6TPI without getting another 80 tooth gear and then it would have to be a hand driven cut because of the gearing loads so turning spare spindle noses to suit the wood chucks is not really worth the hassle.


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## CHJ (23 Jun 2017)

graduate_owner":2pyhyjop said:


> Back to my original theme - is the Hamlet / Axminster premium bowl gouge deep fluted?
> 
> 
> K



It is frustrating that they don't give a head on view of flute, a case of style layout rather than technical detail marketing.

The 'review' would seem to suggest it's a reasonably deep profile.


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