# China



## Amateur (6 Jan 2021)

I posted a few days ago for recommendations for machinery service engineers but raised no replies.
I'd like to update what's gone on since then.
I contacted three companies for advice. They were all woodworking machinery engineers and each told the same story that their work was embedded in the production service side of manufacturing ww machinery.....keeping it running.
One chap said that a typical day call could range up to £400 for an assessment, part orders and machine check out...For my particular case.
Then another visit for fitting etc. At more cost.
Another chap said that amateur wood working machinery were generally not catered for on the repair side as the cost for a call out and work generally came to a high proportion of the machine cost, meaning it would be cheaper to replace than restore. While adding that if a machine has run even moderate hours for 14 years once one part goes its generally a domino effect.
The best and informative discussion was with the engineer that Axminster recommended who I believe lives in Devon and set up in repairing and service.
He comes North once a year. So there is an opportunity to piggy back his visit in February....however as covid struck the companies he usually sees have not arranged appointments so far.

Maybe a lot on here know this already, but I couldn't find anything when I searched, and I'm hoping it will be of benefit to newbies.
So, from here I decided to look at planer thicknessers.
The difficulty here was actually finding anything new that's available for delivery.
Most outlets are showing no stock so I've stuck enquiries in for delivery lead times.
While I await replies, one chap at Kendal WW tools, when I enquired about the Scheppach 3.1 pt told me that at the moment the factory making them had closed down because of covid.
So now I suppose I will have to verify that information.
So apart from charnwoods own brand and the more expensive stuff it appears the market place has dried up for the time being.
I knew we relied on China for a lot of cheap tools but I just wonder how much Chinese manufacturing is ingrained into all our day to day things we take for granted and the repercussions its going to have on our lives and inability to do certain tasks in this long running covid nightmare?


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## paulrbarnard (6 Jan 2021)

So absolutely nothing to lose having a go yourself. It is unfortunately a very disposable world we live in.


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## billw (6 Jan 2021)

We rely on China for a lot of tools full stop A lot of stuff full stop. Is that a bad thing? My answer is yes in some respects and no in others. There are two sides to every argument which is why social media is harmful due to polarisation.

This phenomenon isn't just tools, it's everything, but these days we live in a throwaway society for virtually everything. I *think* the next generation will be putting the brakes on that, the current level of consumerism is totally unsustainable and there will need to be a seismic shift to rectify it.

Shame I can't run for PM, I'd soon have this nonsense sorted out.


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## bourbon (6 Jan 2021)

I think you are overestimating the 'next generation' from my experience, It's a live fast, buy stuff, throw away, die young, sod the planet type of attitude


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## billw (6 Jan 2021)

bourbon said:


> I think you are overestimating the 'next generation' from my experience, It's a live fast, buy stuff, throw away, die young, sod the planet type of attitude



Do you mean millennials or Gen-Z?


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## bourbon (6 Jan 2021)

Anybody about 30 years younger than me


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## doctor Bob (6 Jan 2021)

bourbon said:


> I think you are overestimating the 'next generation' from my experience, It's a live fast, buy stuff, throw away, die young, sod the planet type of attitude



I disagree, I think the next generation are the most aware generation we have ever had, spoilt by a few f**kwittery celebrities". In fairness this celebrity culture seems to have been driven by the likes of Simon Cowell and Co.


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## Amateur (6 Jan 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> I disagree, I think the next generation are the most aware generation we have ever had, spoilt by a few f**kwittery celebrities". In fairness this celebrity culture seems to have been driven by the likes of Simon Cowell and Co.



So aware they disagree that Covid 19 is real, they are invincible, and the vaccine is to inject us all with chips.
But that's getting off topic I'm afraid


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## doctor Bob (6 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> So aware they disagree that Covid 19 is real, they are invincible, and the vaccine is to inject us all with chips.
> But that's getting off topic I'm afraid



Indeed, lets not go down that road.


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## Spectric (6 Jan 2021)

What about them two knob heads from the north east that for some reason Santander allowed to tarnish there image, are these the few f**kwittery celebrities or the likes of those fake looking rich women with large rears and deformed faces.


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## julianf (6 Jan 2021)

People constantly blame "the yoof" for the current, forgetting that it's very rarely the young that are in positions of power in society.

That will, generally, be rich old white men.


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## Blackswanwood (6 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> What about them two knob heads from the north east that for some reason Santander allowed to tarnish there image, are these the few f**kwittery celebrities or the likes of those fake looking rich women with large rears and deformed faces.


If you are referring to Ant & Dec they are both aged 45 ... hardly the youth of today ...


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## D_W (6 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> So aware they disagree that Covid 19 is real, they are invincible, and the vaccine is to inject us all with chips.
> But that's getting off topic I'm afraid



If mine's coming with chips, I want cracked pepper or hot pepper flavored chips.


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## Spectric (6 Jan 2021)

But still an influence


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## Phil Pascoe (6 Jan 2021)

And they're worth something like £70m apiece so hardly knobheads. I can't stand them either, mind.


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## doctor Bob (6 Jan 2021)

I was thinking more of the "love island", TOWIE, etc, the women who post pics of themselves on the beach in Dubai.


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## Bm101 (6 Jan 2021)

Listen to yourselves some of you. 









25 Quotes in 2,500 Years Proving We Always Blame the Younger Generation


This is not new.




www.historyhustle.com


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## Terry - Somerset (6 Jan 2021)

There is a danger in believing as common truths that which the media report on TV and in the press.

Were there a three mile stretch of sandy beach and 30 people crowded at one end smoking weed and imbibing booze, would the media report a deserted beach or irresponsible rave.

If you are old enough, remember how it was 50 or 60 years ago. Your parents thought rock and roll was discordant rubbish, flat pack furniture was the work of a design genius, miniskirts were sinful, and short back and sides was the only game in town.

Unsurprisingly the world has changed. Not all kids are irresponsible, smart phone obsessed, lovers of lowest common denominator TV shows. Many are far more thoughful than I ever was about climate change, bio-diversity, rainforests etc etc.

As a principle we should all reflect on how things were when we were their age - not because the past should be some sort of constant, but to properly understand that the world moves on and we don't always change with it.


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## billw (6 Jan 2021)

OK so I framed "next generation" without much context, since I'm gen X and I assume the "next" generation to be the one coming through rather than being in adulthood as millennials all are now (they're mid-20s at least). 

Gen Z have a very different approach than millennials, the latter probably being the peak of consumerism culture.


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## NickDReed (6 Jan 2021)

All children no matter what generation inherit the world, society and morals the previous generations laid the groundwork for. Nothing exists in isolation. Blaming a generation/person without questioning what lead them there is easy and lazy.


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## Sandyn (6 Jan 2021)

The younger generation will do just fine, just as every other 'younger generation' has done. They will cope with whatever is thrown at them. For those of us who are older and living in a world that has changed a huge amount, this world is their norm.


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## nickr (7 Jan 2021)

I served an an apprenticeship in electrical engineering. That has given me the chance to work on all sorts of equipment from hydroelectric generation, radar, I've rewound electric motors you could walk through, even cloth cutters and washing machines. I can only hope that the young people of today can enjoy the same sort of employment that I've had. From my experience this has all been because of British engineering and manufacturing. In these current times we have to rebuild our manufacturing industry, this would provide employment and sales for the country. I know I may seem old, but I remember being proud to see products marked with "Made in Britain" or "Made in England", and our engineers are some of the best in the world. It's time to ask why can't I buy British made products and be proud of our heritage. 
I've worked with a lot of engineers and I'm proud to say a lot of them our "Great". 
An old but goody.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Jan 2021)

Unfortunately the Buy British campaigns just about coincided with the time quaility manufacturing was very quickly going down the pan and moving to Japan. Much of the stuff proudly carring a Union flag was actually rubbish.

It's time to ask why can't you buy British made products and be proud of your heritage> We all know why - there'll always be a Country somewhere that'll make it way cheaper, and most people aren't remotely interested where something's made.


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## Shane1978 (7 Jan 2021)

Terry - Somerset said:


> There is a danger in believing as common truths that which the media report on TV and in the press.
> 
> Were there a three mile stretch of sandy beach and 30 people crowded at one end smoking weed and imbibing booze, would the media report a deserted beach or irresponsible rave.
> 
> ...


Well said. I was listening to some blues in the workshop yesterday and it struck me how subversive it must have seemed at the time. That repetitive riff is just like when I first started listening to what we called ‘rave music’ at the time. And the man singing isn’t a respectable gentleman crooning of his love.. it’s a drunken old black man growling about how his girlfriend left him - because he’s a drunk!
Imagine respectable middle class white kids from the Home Counties listening to that! Imagine their parents reactions. 
nothing changes really.


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> It's time to ask why can't you buy British made products and be proud of your heritage> We all know why - there'll always be a Country somewhere that'll make it way cheaper, and most people aren't remotely interested where something's made.



Most people forget we do still make a lot of stuff here, but it's generally stuff that's complex and highly skilled, not whacking some aluminium in a mould and drilling a couple of holes in it.

Stuff we do, as the NINTH largest manufacturing economy* in the world.....

Aerospace - aircraft engines and components
Chemical and pharmaceutical - huge R&D sector, but we actually make the stuff too and export £45bn of it
Defence - 140,000 people in a field that the west will never allow China to be involved in
Electronics - 14 of the world’s top 20 semiconductor companies have design/manufacturing sites in the UK
Nuclear - 63,000 direct jobs
Security - equipment supporting national infrastructure; cyber security; policing and counter-terrorism 
Space - supports telecoms and broadcasting to enable disaster relief, telemedicine, navigation 

Right - most of that stuff is complex and requires innovation and highly technically skilled people, both in design and manufacture. What's more productive for our economy? Employing less people in higher value operations, or employing lots of people to churn out plastic toothbrush holders, aluminium step ladders, or even iphones!

The best thing our country can do is ask "where can we add the most value?" and if somewhere else can do things to a required standard at a much cheaper price, outsource it to them and let our people continue to generate a higher GDP per capita by investing in quality education and encouraging investment in the country by firms looking for the best, not cheapest, workforce.

Next time you manage to fly somewhere, sit near the wing and look out of the window. How would you feel if the engine had "made in China" on it? Let's make the stuff that can't be replicated easily in Guangzhou.

*A fact, but disguises that even in 9th place our global share is a mere 1.8%.


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## Spectric (7 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> And they're worth something like £70m apiece so hardly knobheads.


As I said a bad influence, the younger generation look at them and think if a pair of knobheads can make £70 million each why do I want to work for a living, I will copy them and become famous.


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## Phil Pascoe (7 Jan 2021)

It must be the only sphere of employment where two people can make huge amounts of money doing a job that one person could do easily.


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## Shane1978 (7 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> As I said a bad influence, the younger generation look at them and think if a pair of knobheads can make £70 million each why do I want to work for a living, I will copy them and become famous.


Copying ant and dec would involve working hard and keeping your employers, fans and sponsors happy for nearly 2 decades. Rising to the top of your career and getting paid a premium for your work. Isn’t that what we all want our kids to do? As long as they’re happy?


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## Droogs (7 Jan 2021)

it would be nice for them to achieve that but just at something that is worthwhile and not inane drivel


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## doctor Bob (7 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> As I said a bad influence, the younger generation look at them and think if a pair of knobheads can make £70 million each why do I want to work for a living, I will copy them and become famous.



Pah, one of my clients is a trader, he makes more than that, he's 28..........


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## Trainee neophyte (7 Jan 2021)

Droogs said:


> it would be nice for them to achieve that but just at something that is worthwhile and not inane drivel


Are you saying that Wonky Donky isn't a worthwhile piece of televisual art? I am disappointed that you are so lowbrow as to not see that their work explores the relationship between new class identities and life as performance. With influences as diverse as Camus and John Cage, new variations are created from both explicit and implicit structures. What starts out as vision soon becomes finessed into a cacophony of defeat, leaving only a sense of nihilism and the possibility of a new understanding.



This is very unfortunate.


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## Cheshirechappie (7 Jan 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> Are you saying that Wonky Donky isn't a worthwhile piece of televisual art? I am disappointed that you are so lowbrow as to not see that their work explores the relationship between new class identities and life as performance. With influences as diverse as Camus and John Cage, new variations are created from both explicit and implicit structures. What starts out as vision soon becomes finessed into a cacophony of defeat, leaving only a sense of nihilism and the possibility of a new understanding.



Have you ever worked for the Arts Council, by any chance? (Asking tongue in cheek, just to be clear!)

Many moons ago, I read a few copies of Crafts, the periodical issued by The Crafts Council, before it was reabsorbed into the greater Arts Establishment. It was full of drivel like that. Sort of stuff that takes years of dedicated practice to perfect.

I gave up reading Crafts after about three issues. In retrospect, can't think why I read that many.


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## Droogs (7 Jan 2021)

Oh early work is fine it's that jungle rubbish I object to,I've lived in the jungle I have and it is nowt like that


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## Trainee neophyte (7 Jan 2021)

Cheshirechappie said:


> Have you ever worked for the Arts Council, by any chance


I had a little help: Instant artist statement


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## Cheshirechappie (7 Jan 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> I had a little help: Instant artist statement



Now that did make I chuckle ....

Many a true word, an' all that.


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## Droogs (7 Jan 2021)

It is sad when your biggest hit is when you are 12 and you then constantly fail to better it. Oh byker grove - yeah


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## RobinBHM (7 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> Most people forget we do still make a lot of stuff here



Yes indeed. We should be proud of the Nissan plant in Sunderland, one of the most productive car plants in Europe.

I know UK car manufacturing is mostly foreign owned assembly plant, but it's still an achievement.


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## NickDReed (7 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> It must be the only sphere of employment where two people can make huge amounts of money doing a job that one person could do easily.



You've not worked in the public sector then?


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## Sean33 (7 Jan 2021)

NickDReed said:


> All children no matter what generation inherit the world, society and morals the previous generations laid the groundwork for. Nothing exists in isolation. Blaming a generation/person without questioning what lead them there is easy and lazy.


Probably going to open a can of worms here and apologies in advance if anybody is offended. So here goes my rant, i have kids, most of my friends have kids ranging from 3-17 and without doubt they all know best. They know you can't give them a clip round the ear, they know they will not get the cane/shoe at school and they know the police have limited powers of deterrent for them. I was kindly asked to my sons school as he was being a . and they wanted to inform me of his behaviour. When asked what i thought was the best course of action to take my reply was give them the cane, you should have seen there looks, you would have thought i had just farted in there faces. I did go on to point out that when i was a whipper snapper i got the cane, didn't do it again, local plod used to give us a clip round the ear when we were being stupid and come round and visit our parents to tell them, be jasus remember my nan even gave me a red leg stinger, again it stopped us in our tracks from doing it again.
Problem as i see it is we have gone too soft, too many snowflakes. kids need to realise for every action/reaction there is a consequence, unfortunately the consequences can not be dealt with in a way that will make them think twice about doing it again.
Now dont get me wrong, my kids mean the world to me but given the choice, yes i would bring back the cane, and most definitely bring back national Service 
Rant over !


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## billw (7 Jan 2021)

When I was in Singapore early last year, where they have national service, the armed forces had a career fair about the sort of things you could do in the military. It was bloody fascinating, and the range of potentials was huge, which I am sure it is in most modern militaries, but anyway.

Point was that you'd be hard-pressed to argue that national service was a bad thing, it's not like they just stock up on cannon fodder.

These days in the UK you'd get a huge campaign saying it was slave labour or something.


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## Droogs (7 Jan 2021)

I am against a military national service. The military needs to be voluntary. The yoof should do a community based national service where they provide services to community in which they live. still run with discipline but a much better use would be fix the national infrastucture and do things that will help give them a trade/career


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## artie (8 Jan 2021)

Sean33 said:


> They know you can't give them a clip round the ear, they know they will not get the cane/shoe at school


I received my education mostly in the 60s, when teachers were at liberty to smack, cane, push, pull our hair and humiliate us pretty much as they pleased. One teachers favourite weapon was the 3 ft T square which he applied with sadistic relish.
And it did no good. I believe it had the opposite effect.
To defy authority, take your six of the best or have your head bounced of the blackboard, not a common practice but not unknown and return with head high to you seat gave street (classroom) cred that no schoolboy today will ever know.



Sean33 said:


> and most definitely bring back national Service


O yes, all we need is a generation of fit youngsters trained to kill.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jan 2021)

I got "caned" with what I still think was a piece of electric flex. Six lashes, twelve stripes down the inside of the right arm, twelve down the right cheek, twelve down the left cheek and twelve down the inside on the thigh where the end had curled around. 
Senior prefect's detentions were three hours .......... stood still, a foot from a wall in a corridor with a cross at eye level. If anyone saw you move in the three hours you got another three hours on another day. You were supposed to get suspended if you got three of them, but I got ten or eleven without being suspended. I got suspended for something else, but by the bye (I gave someone who thought it wise to try to give me a hiding a hiding.). At a junior lever it was three stikes of a size ten plimsoll - I had that nineteen times in one term.
Did it all do any good?


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## Jester129 (8 Jan 2021)

So that's why.......


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## clogs (8 Jan 2021)

like most had the cane on the legs hit with a stinkey slipper across the face......
Detention well I just walked out.....did anyone know....?.....sorry just didn't care.....
always got could do better or always looking out of the window......
the morons we called teachers didn't realise we were *BORED
my best subjects were metal and wood work, science and tech drawing + Geography.... *
but an hour a week just wasn't enough.......
_What use was music and relig studies.....
mind could go to uni and geta masters in knitting....._
education is everything but specialised education is better.....


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## Amateur (8 Jan 2021)

Its only as you Get older you can reflect back.
At the time you are so entrenched with doing the best you can at work to keep the mortgage paid and the kids and Mrs in food, cloths and water.
Oh if it was only so simple.
My biggest gripe is not realising there are two world's for kids today.
The kids you see for a couple of hours every night and the kids at school, and out with their mates.

From the age of 3 in some cases, to the age of 23 in a lot of cases your children are influenced more by outside society than mum and Dad. They are in education a lot longer than we were.
Every hour of every day in all those years is laid out and planned by someone else.
Influencing how they think.
Peer pressure at school by other kids to conform to "The in crowd" or be mentally tortured and bullied into submission to join them. 
To send all kids to university, promising degrees despite their varying mental ability is wrong. How can you class every single kid as academically capable?
But the Unis were quick.
A couple of years ago the UK had produced enough degree kids in photography to fill every job through Europe for the next 20 years.
And when I sat down with a group of teachers to ask why kids doing A levels were not assigned to investigate the type of degrees that potential employers required to secure work positions...I was scoffed at.
But, I argued, it would open the door to working for companies during holiday periods, Get them sponsored. It would give the kids hands on experience within their chosen careers.
So you let them do degrees in Surfing, ( Yes in water, on boards),when they want to work in metallurgy or genetics? What good is that?

Then at Newcastle university when I'd driven my son to look round we sat waiting in reception when a classy middle age gentleman walked in and announced my son's name.
I too got up and advanced towards the man.
"Where do you think your going?" He demanded.
" I'm his Dad. To look round"
" Sit, sir. This has nothing to do with you. It's your sons decision "

But what can you do when it's all about bums on seats and big money payments?
Influence?
I sat down but in retrospect I could have argued about who was actually paying the fees......or maybe decked the silly person for being rude.
alas another opportunity to correct society thrown away, along with a night in the cells and a column in the Evening news paper.

You think you are in control of your kids destiny.
Your not.
You do your best and that's all you can do.
There is a much bigger influence out there today than the family unit.say
Good luck


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jan 2021)

Amateur said:


> A couple of years ago the UK had produced enough degree kids in photography to fill every job through Europe for the next 20 years.



Some twenty years ago I read that there were more media studies degrees awarded every year than there were jobs in the whole of the media industry. It rather amuses me that if I suggested there should be 15, 000 degrees awarded every year in Sanskrit poetry everyone would say I was mad ........................ but it's apparently perfectly sensible to award them in media studies, sociology etc. which for the vast majority will be valueless - a degree no longer even proves the holder is literate or numerate.


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## billw (8 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Some twenty years ago I read that there were more media studies degrees awarded every year than there were jobs in the whole of the media industry. It rather amuses me that if I suggested there should be 15, 000 degrees awarded every year in Sanskrit poetry everyone would say I was mad ........................ but it's apparently perfectly sensible to award them in media studies, sociology etc. which for the vast majority will be valueless - a degree no longer even proves the holder is literate or numerate.



It seems to be the old polytechnics/colleges that went down that route. They used to be more vocational but have tried to turn vocation into academic degrees, and then introduced "less demanding" academic degrees which really shouldn't be degrees at all. I seem to recall the government not long ago had a crackdown on funding thousands of courses that they deemed to be pointless?

For some courses, having only one or two universities offer them just to ensure there's enough graduates in the field might be a better solution, but universities need money and will offer whatever people want to do.

The university system is quite broken, the sheer number of students I see who are completely disengaged from learning and are clearly there to just get away from mum and dad, or were told to go for family pride, is remarkable. Not to go down a cultural rabbit hole, but one of the staff at uni said that delaying forced marriage was sometimes a factor in the girls choosing university.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jan 2021)

Bearing in mind there are people of above average intelligence who for a variety of reasons don't go to university, aiming for 50% university attendance must mean that there are degrees suited to people of below average intelligence. That's quite worrying.


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## Spectric (8 Jan 2021)

doctor Bob said:


> Pah, one of my clients is a trader, he makes more than that, he's 28..........


Yes I have had customers that have worked in the stockmarket and earned an absolute fortune just in bonuses but although they may have been magicians with money some of them were pretty clueless when it came to the simple everyday things. The one question it raised was why would someone who is financially astute and earning big bonus's still want to return to work on Monday when they know they have the ability to just retire, is it pure greed or a lifestyle they cannot escape.


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## Trainee neophyte (8 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> The one question it raised was why would someone who is financially astute and earning big bonus's still want to return to work on Monday when they know they have the ability to just retire, is it pure greed or a lifestyle they cannot escape.


One argument could be that they are the type of people to whom competition is everything, and whoever dies with the most stuff wins, but I actually think the simple answer is that they are all desperately working to pay for @doctor Bob 's kitchen install. Keeping up with the Jones 's has never been so expensive.


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## billw (8 Jan 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> One argument could be that they are the type of people to whom competition is everything, and whoever dies with the most stuff wins, but I actually think the simple answer is that they are all desperately working to pay for @doctor Bob 's kitchen install. Keeping up with the Jones 's has never been so expensive.



Culturally it's basically this. We live in an individualistic, competitive culture and perception of the self is seen through the lens of materialism.

I would be happy with a Doctor Bob toast rack, let alone a kitchen.


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## Spectric (8 Jan 2021)

Yes they have loads of money and it was always easy to get work from them, I can see @doctor Bob 's logic, supply a really flash looking kitchen that does not need to last a lifetime because they will want to keep up with the Jones so in a few years he will supply another one, and another which is really good business. Even more clever is if he is using knockdown fittings so it can be fully dismantled and resold to another customer further down the pecking order, so effectively selling one kitchen multiple times.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> The one question it raised was why would someone who is financially astute and earning big bonus's still want to return to work on Monday when they know they have the ability to just retire, is it pure greed or a lifestyle they cannot escape.



I was talking with my wife's boss (an (upmarket) bank manager) and mentioned that the son of an acquaintance was thinking of retiring at 39 after his previous year's bonus was £1.3m. She just laughed and said people like him will never retire - they get too much of a buzz from making money.


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## selectortone (8 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Some twenty years ago I read that there were more media studies degrees awarded every year than there were jobs in the whole of the media industry. It rather amuses me that if I suggested there should be 15, 000 degrees awarded every year in Sanskrit poetry everyone would say I was mad ........................ but it's apparently perfectly sensible to award them in media studies, sociology etc. which for the vast majority will be valueless - a degree no longer even proves the holder is literate or numerate.



Nothing new there. In 1970, in the gents at the Students Union at the University of Surrey, some bright spark had scrawled above the toilet roll dispenser in one is the stalls "Sociology degrees - please take one". Funny what you remember from all those years ago.


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## Amateur (8 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Some twenty years ago I read that there were more media studies degrees awarded every year than there were jobs in the whole of the media industry. It rather amuses me that if I suggested there should be 15, 000 degrees awarded every year in Sanskrit poetry everyone would say I was mad ........................ but it's apparently perfectly sensible to award them in media studies, sociology etc. which for the vast majority will be valueless - a degree no longer even proves the holder is literate or numerate.



The thing is university top line sociology lecturers knock out 100,000 a year!!!!

Good money when your in a subject that makes you look at things yet do nothing about your findings and observations?


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## D_W (8 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> Yes I have had customers that have worked in the stockmarket and earned an absolute fortune just in bonuses but although they may have been magicians with money some of them were pretty clueless when it came to the simple everyday things. The one question it raised was why would someone who is financially astute and earning big bonus's still want to return to work on Monday when they know they have the ability to just retire, is it pure greed or a lifestyle they cannot escape.



The market isn't that complicated if you're selling and making a commission. The avenue to making a lot of money is to get a slice of the sale and find people with a fair bit of money and no interest in investing their own. Inevitably, salespeople who aren't too interested in details or ethics are better at this (as many of the brokers and client managers for high wealth individuals don't have college degrees here. They go work in a crappy brokerage, aren't phased by the lack of ethics, get their securities licenses and then from there, the person who sells the most moves forward). 

Anyone here who has ever worked in a technical job with account managers will generally find that too much principle leads to not being the account manager.


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## D_W (8 Jan 2021)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Some twenty years ago I read that there were more media studies degrees awarded every year than there were jobs in the whole of the media industry.



I doubt that, but don't doubt there are double the number of media studies graduates vs. any kinds of jobs (and a lot of the entry level jobs don't pay enough to live). 

When I was in college, someone on the college newspaper staff took it upon themselves to publish a list of information that they got from the bursar/interview part of the office (the one who did outreach to employers and arranged for them to come onsite to interview). The information was simple:

*Major
*average starting salary
*percent of graduates getting a job related to their major

Once you got outside of what people would normally think of as desirable jobs (nurse, physician, lawyer, engineer, etc), the numbers were pretty bleak. There were also some really rigorous difficult majors (atmospheric sciences, etc) heavy in physics and mathematics that had high % job placement and low salary. Rough day for some people reading the newspaper that day. 

One of the majors was integrative arts (whatever that is) with a dance concentration. I really have no idea how that can be a 4 year degree, but know one person who did it (she has a franchised studio of dance/exercise classes, one that doesn't require a degree. It's a very fair question to her what advantage going to college provided - she could've opened her studio 4 years earlier without debt equal to or greater than her first year's income). 

Colleges are an industry - they will operate in their own interest first, even at the highest levels (post-graduate research) - whatever pays is what gets the most priority.


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## glenfield2 (9 Jan 2021)

I haven’t followed this thread closely but to just chuck my tuppence worth in: it’s an easy target to say that kids today do easy and pointless degrees and should do more ‘with their hands’ or study ‘relevant’ subjects. 
But just what is relevant - less than 20 years ago there was barely an internet let alone YouTube, Facebook, gaming etc etc. Kids doing irrelevant subjects - especially creative ones like media, art, design and learning out to think outside the box drove this all forwards.
And who knows where we will be or what will be needed in another 20 years?
All this from a 73 year old with a degree in a pointless subject - philosophy - my fair share of ‘coshing’ from grammar school prefects and an only partially fulfilled desire to do stuff with my hands.


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## Chris70 (9 Jan 2021)

My humble achievements ran to three O-levels, but still, I don't think one can say philosophy is a pointless subject. I love wisdom.


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## billw (9 Jan 2021)

When I was at uni in the early 1990s I knew a lot of people doing computer science/programming/etc and we all laughed and called them nerds. Now they're CTOs and/or working for the big tech firms in Silicon Valley. Damn.


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## Ollie78 (9 Jan 2021)

I think the most important thing that is missing from education is teaching our kids to actually learn independantly for themselves. 
There is so much studying to pass the test, and reciting lists. I think a lot of people are let down by this. Once they leave the system they are in trouble. 
The system teaches conformity, so that people are used to sitting in an office with the same rules, same petty squabbles, cliques and office politics as at school. 

I think a mandatory year (or more) break between A levels and university should be implemented. Maybe a national service of some sort, not necessarily military. Then it would give time for reflection on what degree you need or if you need one at all. 
The university system is largely a money making scheme now, though of course there is many with good intentions and genuine reasons within it. 
Since the implementation of student loans in America the cost of studying has increased by a ludicrous amount, as the fees go up, the loans go up everyone makes vast profits and the loans take a lifetime to repay.
I also believe that most degrees could be completed in one year, if you did it full time like a job. There is so much wasted time in the educational year, my brother was going to 2 lectures a week, at the end he did about 2 months of actual work to do his dissertation and pass the course. He could have easily compressed that to a year and saved a fortune.
I stayed in education till 19, but really would have been better just working from about 14 as by then I had lost all interest.

Ollie


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## billw (9 Jan 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I think a mandatory year (or more) break between A levels and university should be implemented. Maybe a national service of some sort, not necessarily military. Then it would give time for reflection on what degree you need or if you need one at all.
> 
> I also believe that most degrees could be completed in one year, if you did it full time like a job. There is so much wasted time in the educational year, my brother was going to 2 lectures a week, at the end he did about 2 months of actual work to do his dissertation and pass the course. He could have easily compressed that to a year and saved a fortune.




Mandatory year out - yes I agree that most students at university really don't seem ready at all to cope with it. 

One year - no! OK I have 12 "contact hours" a week, across four subjects. It's usually two hours of lecture and one of seminar, obviously it's all virtual now. However, in reality, and because I strive to get the best marks I can, I probably do another 20 hours a week of reading, research, preparation for assignments, and generally widening my knowledge past the basic requirements. That's what, equivalent to a full time job?!

Could I pass my course doing three hours a week? Probably (universities are VERY forgiving at the bottom end of the scale) but what's the point in getting a rubbish degree? A third class degree means you can spell your name and turned up to the right room for an exam. I've seen the quality of some of the work that "passes" and I'd not line my cat's litter tray with it.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Jan 2021)

About ten years ago I worked with a sixth form college chemistry tutor, a very clever lady well past retiring age who was still doing D of E award hikes etc. - she said she would advise anyone who didn't actually need a degree for entry level jobs such as medicine, architecture, vetinary medicine etc. not to go to university, but to look for jobs in their chosen industry. If they were any good the firms would put them through the training and qualifications.

My daughter met an old school friend one day, came home and told me she'd told her to thank me. I asked what for. My daughter said for showing the girl an article in The Times about blue chip firms starting to take people after A levels and not waiting for degrees. She took it to heart, applied to KPMG and at 23 was a qualified accountant with no debts.


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## Ollie78 (9 Jan 2021)

billw said:


> Mandatory year out - yes I agree that most students at university really don't seem ready at all to cope with it.
> 
> One year - no! OK I have 12 "contact hours" a week, across four subjects. It's usually two hours of lecture and one of seminar, obviously it's all virtual now. However, in reality, and because I strive to get the best marks I can, I probably do another 20 hours a week of reading, research, preparation for assignments, and generally widening my knowledge past the basic requirements. That's what, equivalent to a full time job?!
> 
> Could I pass my course doing three hours a week? Probably (universities are VERY forgiving at the bottom end of the scale) but what's the point in getting a rubbish degree? A third class degree means you can spell your name and turned up to the right room for an exam. I've seen the quality of some of the work that "passes" and I'd not line my cat's litter tray with it.



Ok. I have generalised a great deal and am not suggesting that all degrees are equal. 
I certainly don't want doctors qualifying in 12 months.
But if you are doing 12 hours plus 20 hours that still leaves 8 hours for other parts if the studying. Then there is the huge holidays at Easter, summer etc.
If you studied 45 hours a week for say 50 weeks a year, like most jobs then it would certainly be quicker, less expensive and you would be benefitting from your knowledge by getting paid faster. 

Ollie


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Jan 2021)

I saw my daughter's head of year when she was about to take A levels. ( I knew the woman to speak to as I'd invigilated exams there.) She told me that when choosing all A levels were of equal value, so I said I presumed that Oxford or Cambridge would accept her A levels in sociology, Media Studies and World Film Studies. She thought for a moment and said Mr. P. you know I can't comment on that.


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## glenfield2 (10 Jan 2021)

Chris70 said:


> My humble achievements ran to three O-levels, but still, I don't think one can say philosophy is a pointless subject. I love wisdom.



I’ll have to think about that


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## Robbo60 (11 Jan 2021)

In my first (and only) year at Uni we were debating my opinion that the degree you took should bear some relevance to the career you intended to take (I was doing an Accountancy and Financial Management degree - hence one year - I was good at Maths) one of the other "chaps" told me I had a very Polytechnic attitude to University (1978). twit - him not me!


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## D_W (11 Jan 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I think the most important thing that is missing from education is teaching our kids to actually learn independantly for themselves.
> There is so much studying to pass the test, and reciting lists. I think a lot of people are let down by this. Once they leave the system they are in trouble.
> The system teaches conformity, so that people are used to sitting in an office with the same rules, same petty squabbles, cliques and office politics as at school.
> 
> ...



I can say as someone who has a defective brain (I can't really learn from other people, but can learn well on my own), I don't know what the right rule is for how kids should learn. I can say the conventional school system wasn't great for me (I graduated high school on the dean's list, but below a lot of kids with lower aptitude). I could never figure out why I could learn a certain difficulty level or solve problems better than other people but not generally compete on the whole curriculum - until halfway through college when I learned to take notes during lectures to see what I'd have to learn and then go back after class and work through the mechanics of everything myself. 

On the opposite side of me are people who can blitz through work accurately, conscientiously and in great detail who don't do that well solving a problem they haven't seen before. I can't do the things they can do, but I can probably solve the problem. I believe this is a brain issue and not an environmental factor, and the person who does both extremely well is in the top percentile of everyone - they can learn either way and be ahead of everyone either way. 

I can tell you for sure in the united states that you couldn't do an engineering or mathematics curriculum in a year like a full time job. It's a challenge to do some if you treat them like full time work in the 4 year schedule. Most of my junior and sr. years were more than 40 hours a week and half of each weekend day was spent learning something or preparing for something else. The chem lab folks where I went to school generally received 3 credits for their day course, but the lab portion was about 6-10 hours per week for one additional credit. I don't know what the point of that was, but that was just a thing for them (thankfully not required for math majors). 

It would be a wonderful thing if how kids learned was identified earlier on and then those kids would know what tool box they were dealing with and find a job that makes use of it. I had no idea why I was "stupid" for a long time and wasn't aware that ignoring the lectures and working through the mechanical bits (theorem development, etc, in mathematics) was an option. I saw the same frustration with folks who are conscientious and can't learn on their own when they were forced to solve problems that weren't well defined. Telling them to figure something out rather than giving them a structured problem was a waste of time. Those types of folks tend to be very good at day jobs, including complex types if they have the capacity for it, because they're precise and not inundated with the desire to experiment or modify anything.


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## Trainee neophyte (11 Jan 2021)

University used to be the place where the children of the elite went to make connections, find a marriage partner, and set themselves up for a career in their chosen field. 

Then someone decided that it was racist to only educate the wealthy or very competent, so everyone had to have a degree. Instead of the best (or wealthiest) 5% of the population, 50% would go to university. However, this could no longer be funded by the tax payer, so would be funded by the poor students themselves. All good, until someone discovered this was a creative way to pump new debt into the economy, and basically used university education as as form of quantitative easing. It's all about the debt creation now. 

If you want to have have a career that makes money, look at who drives ludicrously expensive super cars, and follow that path. If you want to have some integrity, probably best not be a banker (or a politician).


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## D_W (11 Jan 2021)

re: the above comment about the loan system being the profit center for schools. I have a different opinion about that. Certainly loan agenting is profitable, but here's what really happens:
* a broker or brokering service of some sort originates a loan. The loan gets sold into a portfolio or the secondary market, and the holder of the loan who wants low risk credit generally doesn't get much of a return on the loan, but because it's not dischargeable in the US with bankruptcy (at least wasn't), its creditworthiness is pretty good. 
* individuals who can't qualify for above can end up with higher interest private loans, but this should tell someone that they shouldn't be taking the loan in the first place
* the colleges themselves have run up enormous amounts of expenditures with building projects into the billions, and the students shopping on brochures and appearance like this. I'm convinced these building wars are at least half of the cost of college as the staff at schools hasn't seen pay increases commensurate with tuition and room and board. 
* in the event that someone visits a few colleges and they go to one that's bare bones, they aren't looking at the graduate job placement or proficiency on graduate school standardized testing, they just figure the cheesy cheap college must not be as good. This type of school has gradually left the fray

In turn, the colleges start stratifying who can pay and how much so the no questions asked tuition goes even higher, exacerbating the problem, and then the objective is to offer scholarships to high aptitude students who don't have the money to go where they really want to go and then extract money from those with means who want to go to said school. Guess what happens to the individuals who don't have the academic means to be desirable to the school, but who can qualify for loans. They pay something in the middle (which is an absurd number). 

The loan agents involved aren't interested in trying to find slaves, they're interested in making a spread on the loan and then it's off of their balance sheet once they securitize it. The real problem is the cost of the education, not the loan, and the lack of honesty at the "point of sale". That is, if someone is going to a college that costs $125k in loans plus some outside money to learn "integrative dance", it's verboten for someone to come up to them without university apparel on who says "look, I'm going to do you a favor here. what you're about to do isn't a good idea". 

As long as students pick the snappy expensive school over one that's got older buildings and less frills, this will continue to occur. As long as it is popular to encourage people to be "well rounded" and leave school with something that doesn't give them any legitimate chance at a job related to said "well rounding", it will continue.


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## Spectric (11 Jan 2021)

Ollie78 said:


> I think the most important thing that is missing from education is teaching our kids to actually learn independantly for themselves.


That always used to be fundamental, explaining to students the process of self discipline and self learning.


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## billw (11 Jan 2021)

Spectric said:


> That always used to be fundamental, explaining to students the process of self discipline and self learning.



They genuinely need spoon-feeding these days. They honestly think they just turn up and sit in a lecture for two hours a week and that will be enough. They don't get told to do homework or anything extra, so they don't.

Just before we had to hand in an assignment I was asked how many references I'd used. It was just over 30, which I thought was sufficient. The lecturer later said 15 was about right. They'd used 4 because they didn't know how to find other material so just asked their friends what they were reading.


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## NickDReed (11 Jan 2021)

Trainee neophyte said:


> University used to be the place where the children of the elite went to make connections, find a marriage partner, and set themselves up for a career in their chosen field.
> 
> Then someone decided that it was racist to only educate the wealthy or very competent, so everyone had to have a degree. Instead of the best (or wealthiest) 5% of the population, 50% would go to university. However, this could no longer be funded by the tax payer, so would be funded by the poor students themselves. All good, until someone discovered this was a creative way to pump new debt into the economy, and basically used university education as as form of quantitative easing. It's all about the debt creation now.
> 
> If you want to have have a career that makes money, look at who drives ludicrously expensive super cars, and follow that path. If you want to have some integrity, probably best not be a banker (or a politician).


Did that...... Turned out the car was on finance.....BIG ISSUE!!! GET YA BIG ISSUE..... no pippers on the high Street these days


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## deema (11 Jan 2021)

I took early retirement and now ‘play’ at restoring machines to keep me occupied. I’ve found that wood working machines tend to fit into three broad categories 
1. ’Old Iron‘ Wadkins, original old Startrite, Multico, Dominion SCM etc. These are all generally good quality machines, last for generations with a small amount of TLC. They are fairly easy to restore and repair, making parts for them is feasible. They hold their value well, making restoration viable. 
2. Modern industrial machines, Altendorf , SCM, Panhans etc, these again are all genarlly good quality machines, however, as soon as I see electronics and any age I know that parts are likely to be obsolete, and repairing a PCB is really a none starter. The cost of electronic proprietary parts is eye watering and most one and two person businesses or enthusiasts are not going to be willing to pay for the repairs.
3. modern hobby grade machines. These are just none starters. The quality of the parts I’ve found is ‘just about adequate’ , and value engineered to death, and mostly they don’t actual perform properly with ‘problems’ that either the user isnt aware of, or believe is what they should put up with. Repairing these machines in general isn’t worth it, I start with one issue and before long find that in reality, I can’t actually get the machine working properly. It never had worked properly and the design means that it’s actually not feasible without an extensive rebuild. Again, people are unwilling to pay for.

I do repair and service machines, mainly for people who have bought machines from me. To do it properly, you need a fair bit of kit. What I’ve found is like you, that there are very few if any people servicing and repairing machines.


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## mikej460 (11 Jan 2021)

I didn't do a 1st degree as I was persuaded by my Dad to become an Engineer after my O levels, but I did what others have mentioned and joined Companies that funded my further education. This eventually led to studying my masters at Lancaster Uni as a mature student in the early 90s and it was the most rewarding experience of my life. I really enjoyed student life and the discipline of studying and researching but it was blummin hard work. They drove students very hard but in a way that motivated you to do better.


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