# Sharpening stones - what regime do you use



## EdK (28 Dec 2007)

Hi,
I was after some info on sharpening stones.

I've been using japanese waterstones for a short while. 

I use 800 / 1200 / 6000 King stones (from Axminster).

I've read that some of you are using the Spyderco 10k stone and was wondering if I should add this to the armoury?

Additionally how are you all flattening your waterstones?

I read the David C book where he recommends 12mm or 10mm float glass or a coarse diamond stone.

I have no way of re-grinding at the moment so have been using the 800 - not a good use of time !

Anyway I was thinking of either going and looking for an offcut of float glass from the local window companies or buying a diamond stone which I could use to flatten stones and also to re-grind edges.

I have been looking at buying a diamond stone online but have yet to come up with a decent option. I am guessing that the stone should be larger than the waterstones which rules out the single sided bench stones from DMT (Axminster again) - or is this not the case ? Would one be suitable ? Also what grit ? 240 ? 400 ? What does this correspond to with DMT stones ? Anyone using the Axminster own brand diamond stones?

Cheers for any help
Ed


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## paulm (28 Dec 2007)

Ed,

I use one of these with my Norton waterstones http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Ice- ... -32262.htm

Actually, it wasn't that particular one but the Norton equivalent. Seemed pretty flat from new and when used little and often on the waterstones is a very easy regime.

Suspect a superfine ceramic stone would give an improvement over your 6000 grit from what I have read elsewhere on the forum, but depends what kind of work you are doing I guess as to whether it would be worthwhile for your needs, for example, if doing general carpentry in mainly softwoods then you are probably fine as you are, but if aspiring to do fine work in hardwoods then may well be worthwhile.

If you can let us know where abouts you are based then it may be that there are some forum members nearby that would let you try out some of the options before you commit.

Cheers, Paul.


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## MrJay (28 Dec 2007)

I bought one of them. It was out of true by about 3mm from end to end (not bad for something barley 6inches long) so it went in the bin. Then I got the Norton equivalent which is comfortably larger. Wary after the IceBear incident I got the nice man at Classic Hand Tools to check it with a shiny Veritas straight edge before I parted with my readies. I shan't be buying a Veritas straight edge any time soon either as the flattening stone is convex and has a pronounced wobble when upturned on a reference surface. Dished stones ahoy.

I'm now using an extra coarse DMT diamond stone to flatten all my other stones - water and oil alike (I could even flatten the Norton flattening stone if I had nothing better to do.) They're pricey, but they're quick, reliable and easy to clean - worth the initial outlay I reckon.

I wouldn't use diamond stones directly on my tools however - in my experience (with DMT and Trend bench stones) they break in and cut unevenly, especially after flattening the backs of a couple of plane irons.

My sharpening 'system' is rather confused and goes something like this...

For heavy work such as flattening and primary bevels the coarse side of my Grandad's old oil stone works a treat if fluffed up with the diamond stone once in a while. Coarse water stones wear away like butter in summer and I always seem to dub the corners if I use scary sharp in anger (not always a crisis as I don't mind rounding the corners of my plane irons slightly). I do quite like scary sharp if there's not much material to come off.

Then I move on to water stones. I've a 1000 grit and then a 6000 grit which seem to work well; water stones ain't half messy though...

For refining the edge I have a hard natural arkansas stone, which has been a little disappointing to be honest and doesn't really improve greatly on the 6000 water stone and is slow work in winter when the oil is more viscous (but does cut surprisingly quickly in summer) so I'm keen to try an 8000 grit water stone in the new year and perhaps some stropping/lapping. Perhaps I'll warm to the arkansas stone after using an 8000 grit stone first.


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## Woody Alan (28 Dec 2007)

I have just got some of the Spyderco ceramic stones all three grades including the ultra fine grit. I was prepared for them to be out of flat from previous comments. I was a bit surprised just how out of flat though  

The coarse was dished or bowed depending on which side you want to flatten by 2-3mm The medium by 1mm and the ultra fine didn't really show up until I tried using it and the circular saw marks that they must cut this with started to show up. I flattened it with my steel plate diamond stone, not easy, until the swirl marks disappeared I reckon it was out by 2-3 thou but really tough to flatten. 

Having gone to the effort I am very pleased with the results and can see they will readily suppliment my sharpening set up. I wil be selling my Waterstones as I simply have never acquired the knack or been comfortable with them always prefering oilstones.

I can only conclude that the stones warp after cutting and during firing in the kiln, because to cut after kilning would blunt bllades fast. There certainly is a manufacturing problem somewhere.

Alan


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## Paul Sellers (28 Dec 2007)

My personal experience with diamond plates is that they cut steel fast and stay flat. When I first heard about them a decade or more ago I bought the coarse, 240, and the superfine 1200. I was getting a little tired of the ritual of flattening bench stones simply because of the damage they do if you don't catch the hollow soon enough. I had heard that people used them to flatten water stones and so I wondered why not just use the diamond plates if they are flat, cut steel fast and more importantly stay flat. I've used them ever since and think that they are good value for money because I am only one step away with abrasive compound and a leather strop to producing a surgically sharp cutting edge capable of doing everything I need. I will say this though. They only last me for about three to four years before the grit size diminishes and they become too fine to use for the coarser levels of abrading. That's the coarse stone. That stone then stands in between my coarse and superfine, so if I want to a can go through three levels before the strop.
I used to use one grit on the strop but then one day one of sons glued four pieces of 3" x 12" split hide to a 3" x 3" x 12" block and coated each face with a diminishing grit-particle size of buffing compound. We simply flip the block and go through the grits until the bevel is fully polished. It works as well as any method I ever used and or seen and takes only a matter of minutes. 
Of course you can make it as scientific as you want, but after forty years of sharpening I ache a little more than I used to and I like to get on with the woodworking end of the work.
By the way, I have been using Eze-lap stones generally, but I have also got the polka dot DMT perforated plates on the plastic sub-support and they work OK too. I haven't any experience with DMT solid plates but I heard that they are good.

Paul Sellers


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## Paul Chapman (28 Dec 2007)

I use three DMT diamond stones, coarse, fine and extra fine, with WD40 or 3-in-1 oil







Then a leather strop with jewellers rouge and Vaseline






Fast, effective and no messing about with flattening  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Philly (28 Dec 2007)

Ed
A cheap offcut of glass is your answer - spending big money on a diamond stone just to flatten stones is un-necessary.
I have tried most sharpening media but get good results with my waterstones. I don't think you'll see a better result adding a 10k ceramic stone to your set-up.
The secret is not the type of stones you use - its getting a sharpening routine that works for you and then sticking with it. Practise really does make perfect :lol: 
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Woody Alan (28 Dec 2007)

> I don't think you'll see a better result adding a 10k ceramic stone to your set-up


I don't wish to contradict you Philly  but I am about to  my initial experience would prove to the contrary. I have already admitted my inadequacy with waterstones (could be the wrong ones?) and I can get a good polish from fine arkansa but if you haven't experienced the quick easy result from an ultra fine ceramic then you are missing out.


> The secret is not the type of stones you use - its getting a sharpening routine that works for you


 I absolutely couldn't agree more in this respect my first quality sharpening was with a cheap india stone and an old black hard arkansa from somewhere after reading DC's guidance and was astounded by the results. I think if forced this would still be my preference over waterstones etc but the fine ceramic, well you've got to try one ( bearing in mind my previous comments) that's all I can say. Hopefully ther'll be someone to add to that. 

Alan


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## woodbloke (29 Dec 2007)

Lots of good comments here, agree with Philly about finding a honing method that works for you. I tried waterstones but simply found them far too much of a genuine pita. I even had one of those posh red Veritas water bath things with the special stone holders, but I found the whole process frustrating in the least, and also incredibly messy...in fact MrC in one particular issue of F&C recommended that the ideal way to use these stones was with a sink and running water installed and I don't think many of us can boast that feature in our 'shops.
I moved on to DMT's with a leather strop, exactly the same system that PaulC uses and the difference was immediate...super sharp tools.
A while back though Newt and I did a little experiment using two identical No4 blades honed to a fresh grinding angle of 23deg on my Tormek. One was sharpened on the green DMT and leather strop, the other was then sharpened on the DMT and given an additional micro-bevel at 35deg on Pete's 10000g Spyderco, 'ruler trick' used on the back in each case. Both were *very, very* sharp but there was a perceptible difference in the one finished with the ceramic stone...wow!
That said, it seems that getting hold of a flat ceramic stone is a bit of a lottery. Pete and myself both managed to get hold of truly flat stones but from reading about others experiences, this doesn't seem to be the case. I think maybe the thing to do is to send it straight back to Axminster and ask them to check another stone for flatness before dispatch...don't know if this is possible but might be worth a punt. The other much more preferable option is to pay a visit in person and trawl thru' their stock until you find one that suites...and while you're there you could have a quick peek at the LN stuff and Veritas and... :roll: :wink: - Rob


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## Waka (29 Dec 2007)

My experience is the same as Rob's, I just couldn't get on with waterstones. I'm not saying here that it's the fault of the waterstones, but more of my failing technique.

I also used the scary sharp method and while I tended to get my blades sharper than with the waterstones, I did find it hit and miss, again probably my technique.

It was a visit to Rob's workshop that persuaded me to change to DMT stones, and I have to say that my planes/chisel etc have never been sharper.

But as Philly says, you have to find the method you are confortable with.


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## bswiseman (29 Dec 2007)

I have used DC's complete methods which were excellent but still found I got a better edge after the 6,000 by stropping. Now I'm using Mr. Sellers methods of the 240/1200 Eze-Lap siliconed to a piece of MDF finishing with a leather strop and green compound. I haven't tried the progressive degrees of compound. I have not found any problems with diamond stones cutting unevenly. A LOT less messy, inexpensive and can be easily taken with you too.

Best Regards,
Stephen


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## EdK (30 Dec 2007)

Lots of info - thanks !
So the easy option is to get some float glass and some 240 grit wet and dry and rub away.

I'm happy sticking with waterstones but still need some way of re-grinding edges or changing a primary bevel.

Let's say I bought a nice new Veritas BU Jack and wanted a slightly steeper angle than the 25 degree blade but not as much as the 38 degree blade - maybe 32 for example (and I only have the 25 blade). 

At the moment I can't change it unless I spend about an hour or more trying to regrind it on the 800 stone (flattening it all the time too).

Would a coarser waterstone do the trick ? Maybe 240 or 400 grit? http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Sun- ... -20292.htm

Or would I be better off with the coarse DMT for £36 or so from Ax. 325 grit http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-DMT- ... -21932.htm ?

Or even this DMT continuos http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-...Sided-Continuous-Diamond-Whetstone-462293.htm

At the other end of the spectrum how do you go about flattening the ceramic Spydeco 10k stone? I imagine you'd have to flatten it against something harder? Might not buy it after all....

Going to look for float glass tomorrow I think.

Cheers
Ed


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (31 Dec 2007)

Hi Ed

When using BU planes I always recommend that you use a primary bevel of 25 degrees as your base. This has the greatest flexibility for the secondary bevel angle, and it is easier to camber than a primary bevel of a higher angle.

If you have a primary bevel of your intended 25 degrees and wish to add, as you noted, a secondary bevel of 32 degrees, a secondary microbevel is possible to be created on your 1200 King and finished on your 6000 King. 

What you must keep in mind is that the size of the microbevel is of no importance to the wood. In other words, a microbevel that is .1mm is as effective as a full single bevel hones at the same grit. 

So, once the primary bevel is obtained at 25 degrees, using a honing guide set for 32 degrees, run the blade over the 1200 stine until you can feel the wire edge forming. Once you have a slight wire edge you can stop the 1200. Clean this off on the 6000. You are now in a position to add a camber to the blade (just add pressure to the corners of the blade and use an equal number of strokes each side. You will be able to feel that the corners have a thicker wire edge that the centre). Clean the wire edge off on the 6000. At this point your microbevel is probably only .25 mm. Now use the 6000 but make sure that you use the same number of strokes at the corners and the centre of the blade. I tend to complete the honing with a circular motion to round off the camber. Clean off the wire edge and you are ready to go.

If you wish you can strop (on Veritas green rouge = .5 microns or equiv to 15000 waterstone) for the finest edge. I'd recommend this for smoothers, but not otherwise. 

An alternative to the rouge is to use the 6000 King dry - just let the surface naturally dry out as you hone on it. The effect will be to crush the grit into smaller particles.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## 58954 (31 Dec 2007)

Hi Ed,
Just my experiences; but please keep in mind that i am not an expert in this area.


> Would a coarser waterstone do the trick ? Maybe 240 or 400 grit? http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Sun- ... -20292.htm


I have bought the 240 grit one for grinding purpose but don't like it very much:
it grinds fast when you put a lot of pressure, but wear fast too. Unfortunately i can't maintain the wear even on the stone while using it. The build up on the stone surface doesn't accomodate the use of a honing guide roller very well too.



> Or would I be better off with the coarse DMT


Tried that too but doesn't works for me: far too slow when reshaping an edge.
(Used the DMT extra-extra coarse -Grit size 120 µm, grit approx. 120.-and the DMT DuoSharp Whetstone, coarse -the blue one-).

I am now looking for a Norton crystolon coarse oil stone as suggested by Brent Beach on that page: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpe ... stone.html 

Cheers
Simon


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## pam niedermayer (31 Dec 2007)

Derek Cohen (Perth said:


> When using BU planes I always recommend that you use a primary bevel of 25 degrees as your base. This has the greatest flexibility for the secondary bevel angle, and it is easier to camber than a primary bevel of a higher angle....



Huh? This is more flexible than 23°? Or 20°?

Pam


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (1 Jan 2008)

> Huh? This is more flexible than 23°? Or 20°?



Pam

It is vital that this angle is _exactly_ 25 degrees. A minute here-or-there is not good enough. Everything must be in aligned or else the Law of the Universe will fail and the Heavans will fall on our heads while we sleep. There will be nothing holding it up! 

God, for a moment there I thought you were joking, but I recognise the seriousness of your tone.

Best regards from Chicken Licken ... uh, from Perth :lol: 

Derek


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## pam niedermayer (1 Jan 2008)

Derek, I take you at your word, thought you were serious. 

Happy New Year from the land of Kentucky's finest,

Pam


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## EdK (2 Jan 2008)

Happy new year !
Now I'm just plain confused! Pam and Derek... should 25 degrees be added to the commandments?!

Anyway it was just an example (and I'm excited by my first and last plane) - the question I suppose should be phrased:

If you don't have a grinding wheel (Tormek etc) what is a good way of regrinding or extablishing a new edge?

ie alot of metal to remove in an orderly fashion followed by your standard stone work.

Cheers
Ed


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## woodbloke (2 Jan 2008)

EdK":30t867v0 said:


> Happy new year !
> Now I'm just plain confused! Pam and Derek... should 25 degrees be added to the commandments?!
> 
> Anyway it was just an example (and I'm excited by my first and last plane) - the question I suppose should be phrased:
> ...



A cheaper alternative to remove a lot of metal is to use the one promulgated (good technical word ) by the now departed Alf and that is to use a hand cranked grinder which can be picked up pretty cheaply from second hand tool shops and boot fairs. It's also safer IMO as there's less danger of overheating the metal with one...as and afterthought, Krenov also recommends them in one of his books - Rob


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## whybob71 (2 Jan 2008)

Hi all.
I can report my personal experience. 
Actually I'm using DMT stones (DMT duo-sharp, four sizes up to the 1200) to form the primary bevel. Then I switch to japanese watherstones (3000 and 6000) for the secondary bevel. I finally "strop" the edge on a flat piece of MDF with some abrasive compound (I found that the one sold by car-parts shops it is effective). If the edge is veeery damaged I use some 80-120 grit paper on 10 mm thick glass.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (3 Jan 2008)

> Now I'm just plain confused! Pam and Derek... should 25 degrees be added to the commandments?!



Relax. The point made is that no bevel has to be ground or honed to an exact angle. With BU blades there is more reason to do so, but even then there is a little leeway. For a shooting board plane keeping the secondary bevel low (about 25 degrees) is desired. For high angle blades, a primary bevel of between 20 - 25 or so degrees is fine before adding the higher secondary bevel. It is the secondary bevel that needs to be exact for purposes of repeatibility (=efficiency and economy of honing). 

The point I am making is that a low primary bevel is easier to grind than a high primary bevel when one plans to add a camber.



> use a hand cranked grinder which can be picked up pretty cheaply from second hand tool shops and boot fairs. It's also safer IMO as there's less danger of overheating the metal with one...



Be careful with hand grinders - it is easy enough to spin them fast and burn an edge. The old grey wheels they usually come with must be discarded. They need to be matched with an appropriate wheel - a coarse (46 grit) white Nortons wheel is good - and they need a decent tool rest to leave enough coordination over to feed the blade straight. 

An alternative to a high speed grinder is a belt sander, again with coarse medium. I use a belt of 60 or 80 grit to remove lots of steel. These run cooler than a grinder but still need to be watched (and dunked frequently in water). 

Here is the Mk I (wood version) jig I made for the belt sander:
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=14908&page=1&pp=15

The Mk II (metal version) is here:
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=16156

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## EdK (15 Jan 2008)

I now have some flat float glass - what is the best way to chamfer the edges? Or should I have paid the shop to do that !
Ed


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## gidon (15 Jan 2008)

Ed
Use a diamond stone or some sandpaper - both work well taking off the sharp edge.
Cheers
Gidon


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