# Advice re actioning a County Court Judgement



## Mark Hancock (4 Jul 2013)

Has anyone any experience of taking action with a County Court Judgement against a Ltd company?

The situation is I have a judgement against a local plumber. The Court correctly issued it against the Ltd company rather than the individual - both were cited on the claim. I have experience of judgements against 'real' Ltd companies where there are obvious assets but not where the Ltd company status is used by individuals to avoid liability.

Any advice gratefully received.


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## nicguthrie (4 Jul 2013)

I don't personally have any advice in taking small companies to court, but having survived severe ill health (first mine, then my wife's) taking me to bankruptcy's door and back a few times over the years, I've been thru public vs corporate interest a few times.

I'd suggest the citizens advice bureau known as C.A.B in England or C.A.S in Scotland, or Trading Standards Organisation. Both can give free advice on court matters do do with us Joe Blogs taking on Companies. The service they supply can be exceptional, the hours they open aren't the best if you're trying to hold down a job, but I've had amazing help at times from either, and without charge.

All the best in your claim, one tip is wherever you get advice try to take as much documentation with you as possible - invoices, statements, quotes, correspondence, photos if it's substandard work, reports if you need corroboration that it is actually substandard etc... you can't fight without ammo.

Nic.


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## RogerS (4 Jul 2013)

Mark Hancock":1r3vuken said:


> ..... but not where the Ltd company status is used by individuals to avoid liability.
> 
> ......



I am afraid that I think you already know the answer, Mark.

There is this http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/dmbmanual/dmbm666570.htm

or this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/fo ... ompany-how

Does the Court not have Enforcement Officers?


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## Mark Hancock (4 Jul 2013)

RogerS":j50075qs said:


> Mark Hancock":j50075qs said:
> 
> 
> > ..... but not where the Ltd company status is used by individuals to avoid liability.
> ...



Hi Roger

Thank you for the links. The first one relating to Oral Examination, as it use to be known, I have used in the past against an individual and it proved very effective as at the time there was no where to send the bailiffs. The link shows me how I can use the same remedy again in this case. Thank you =D>


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## Graham Orm (4 Jul 2013)

Did he work for you as a Ltd company or an individual? If you have documentation at all from him without the Ltd 'label' then he is potentially personally responsible. Otherwise you probably only have the Ltd company to chase, and if it's got no assets, he can close it down tomorrow leaving you high and dry.


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## deema (4 Jul 2013)

I'm no legal beaver, but have a little experience unfortunately in this area. If your going after a limited company the first thing I would do is go on the companies house WEB site

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcfr ... ompanyInfo 

and for the princely sum of £1 pull of their last accounts (takes about 2 minutes). It sounds like it will be a small company, so you will just get a summary balance sheet. However, you will be able to see if they have any tangible assets. If they don't, I would not waste your time and effort. 

If they have assets, you can simply go back onto the county court web site and follow the steps for failure to pay. This can take you all the way through to the bailiffs if you want to go that far. As you will have experienced, each step of the CC process adds a little more cost that you will only recover if your successful get paid!

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome


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## Mark Hancock (4 Jul 2013)

Thank you for the comments so far.

The question of individual or Ltd Company was dealt with fairly by the Judge at the County Court Hearing. Both were cited on the claim and quite rightly the Judge pointed out that it was the Ltd Company at fault. To have awarded the judgement against the individual would have allowed the defence of "I'm just an employee".

The reason I posted was because I'm aware of the way individuals can hide behind a Ltd Company which has no assets. With no assets the remedy of bailiffs is a waste of time. However there are a number of other remedies available to enforce a judgement and Roger's reply reminded me of them so there is light at the end of the tunnel. I just need to do a bit more research. There is no way I am going to let this guy get away with it :wink:


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## Graham Orm (4 Jul 2013)

Without naming names, can you say what he's done?


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## RogerS (4 Jul 2013)

Grayorm":11int3g2 said:


> Without naming names, can you say what he's done?



Why not name names? After all, there is now a CCJ against the company. That is a matter of public record.


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## Mark Hancock (4 Jul 2013)

RogerS":32r260up said:


> Grayorm":32r260up said:
> 
> 
> > Without naming names, can you say what he's done?
> ...



I've no problem naming names at all. I was just trying to be diplomatic  

The individual in question is Leyton Brooking trading as Mr Plumba Plumba Ltd. This is updated web site which came online in the last few days http://www.mrplumbaplumba.com/ If you would like to see him in person you can find him on facebook - isn't modern technology wonderful :lol: 

The judgement against him was for poor quality workmanship under the Sale of Good and Services Act 1982 and work not fit for purpose as defined by the Sale of Good Act 1979.

I've been thinking of running a competition showing examples of the work and seeing if viewers can spot the faults - got a number of photos which were submitted with the County Court claim. It would be nice to get it to a wider audience. Any suggestions?


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## adidat (4 Jul 2013)

yes! post them up!

adidat


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## Baldhead (4 Jul 2013)

Mark

I have has a lot of very good and free advice from here

http://swarb.co.uk/

Click on 'community' and ask away, I got all the help I needed to successfully sue a lying, fat bas...... Whoops I mean a young lady who owed me a large some of money.

Hope you get sorted.

BH


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## Richard S (5 Jul 2013)

Oh come on, Mr PlumbaPlumba, and you employed them! Did they answer the phone "Howdy Pardner" and turn up on horse back!


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## Richard S (5 Jul 2013)

Nice looking website, I would take issue with the electric outlet next to the basin but its only a reprint of a US image not their own work!


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## RogerS (5 Jul 2013)

Richard S":19xk28yw said:


> Oh come on, Mr PlumbaPlumba, and you employed them! Did they answer the phone "Howdy Pardner" and turn up on horse back!



I see little point in comments such as this.

We all make mistakes from time to time.


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## Graham Orm (5 Jul 2013)

Mark Hancock":rwlkw6kk said:


> RogerS":rwlkw6kk said:
> 
> 
> > Grayorm":rwlkw6kk said:
> ...



I am a plumber and would be interested. Anyone who calls themselves Mr Plumbaplumba is someone to be avoided anyway in my opinion.


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## Mark Hancock (5 Jul 2013)

OK a few images of the towel radiator.

What can you spot?


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## ColeyS1 (5 Jul 2013)

Wow, that looks cack

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## MIGNAL (5 Jul 2013)

Me layman when it comes to Plumbing.
Looks to be positioned a bit high.
Someone nearly burnt the house down.
Bends should be below floor.
It would look nice in Chrome pipes.


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## Mark Hancock (5 Jul 2013)

ColeyS1":1e8942w2 said:


> Wow, that looks cack
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4 Beta



I'll give you 1 out of 4 for spotting the crooked uneven pipe work


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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jul 2013)

What was quoted for? Altering the pipework under the floor would be an awful lot neater, but a totally different job to price for.


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## Chrispy (5 Jul 2013)

Looks like there's a few bits missing to me.


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## Mark Hancock (5 Jul 2013)

MIGNAL":20u50v28 said:


> Me layman when it comes to Plumbing.
> Looks to be positioned a bit high.
> Someone nearly burnt the house down.
> Bends should be below floor.
> It would look nice in Chrome pipes.



I'm also a layman though a bit more informed after this experience :!: 

1 out of 4 for spotting paintwork damage. No Plumber's Mat used to protect paintwork when soldering.

He also didn't remove the bathroom floor mats before starting the work. I quickly picked them up and put them in the bath. When I returned the plumber had emptied the dregs out of the old radiator on to them in the bath. :roll: 

For the 4th failure you would need to know that the heating requirements for the room is around 2200 BTU.....


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## Mark Hancock (5 Jul 2013)

Chrispy":2d60u4gm said:


> Looks like there's a few bits missing to me.



Well spotted. No values were fitted. When asked how we could isolate the towel rail if there was a problem/leak the response was to drain the system. The Misses isn't that practical and I had visions of her trying to find the hose from the garden shed, to attach to the downstairs drain value, leading it outside, trying to find the radiator key to open the value etc etc. The plumber's answer...always available 24 hours a day and would be on site in no time at all :!: He was on holiday 10 days later :!:


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## Mark Hancock (5 Jul 2013)

phil.p":1f1e2jrw said:


> What was quoted for? Altering the pipework under the floor would be an awful lot neater, but a totally different job to price for.



The quote for the bathroom part was to replace the existing radiator with a suitable flat chrome towel radiator.


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## Graham Orm (5 Jul 2013)

Abysmal. Hope you didn't pay him. Is he Gas Safe? He has to be to touch central heating and no Gas Safe plumber would leave that mess. I take it he didn't want to go below the floor because it's laminate? He should have made that clear before starting work.

The right way to do it would be to take the laminate up and re-pipe below the floor. You would then have holes where the old pipes were (or at least one), so new flooring (unless you can match it up) required if you want a perfect job. All this should have been explained before starting work.

Furthermore. When I first joined this forum a guy posted that he had started his own business doing all sorts of repairs, on anything and everything around the house. I said I wasn't impressed as he had no trade and was advertising for everything. I was berated for squashing the guy's enthusiasm, and not wishing him luck in his new venture. This is typical of what you can expect from that type of enthusiastic jack of no trade, and master of even less. I've seen this so many times over the years.

I'm sorry you've had to go through this. I wish people would take more care when choosing tradesmen. Cheapest is NEVER best.


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## Mark Hancock (5 Jul 2013)

Grayorm":3gnsjp2j said:


> Abysmal. Hope you didn't pay him. Is he Gas Safe? He has to be to touch central heating and no Gas Safe plumber would leave that mess. I take it he didn't want to go below the floor because it's laminate? He should have made that clear before starting work.
> 
> The right way to do it would be to take the laminate up and re-pipe below the floor. You would then have holes where the old pipes were (or at least one), so new flooring (unless you can match it up) required if you want a perfect job. All this should have been explained before starting work.



Yes he is Gas Safe.. Number 542710 http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/re...s.aspx&returnname=Find a business&reload=true

Wrote them but although they understood my concerns about him could do nothing as the work didn't involve gas appliances :!: I just hope no one employs him to work in that area.

Regarding going below the flooring, it wasn't necessary. If the guy had worked out the heating requirements for the room he would have found that a suitable size for the towel radiator was 600 x 1600; 600 just happening to be the existing pipe centres. The only reason for the appalling pipe work was to fit an under sized towel radiator of 400 x1000 which was not capable of heating the bathroom, hence the work not fit for purpose as defined by the Sale of Good Act 1979 upheld on the claim.

There were another 3 areas of concern regarding the fitting of this towel radiator which are detailed in further photos.


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## Graham Orm (5 Jul 2013)

I have no idea how anyone would be prepared to put their name to work like that. I'm glad you won your case, and wish you luck with the recovery of your money.


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## Richard S (6 Jul 2013)

Yeee ha!


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## ColeyS1 (6 Jul 2013)

In screwfix earlier and noticed they had a 600 towel rad reduced from 159.99 to 59.99 - might be worth a look

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## sawdust1 (7 Jul 2013)

Hi Mark, plumbing and electrics are the 2 trades i leave well alone unless its something simple but i can see that is sh*t. But Mark surely a towel is to dry off your towels not to heat the bathroom as you stated. And should their not be a stat to control the temperature of the towel rail ? I have ordered one of the ladder rails from screwfix how can they knock £100 off, but hurry stock is running out.


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## Hivenhoe (8 Jul 2013)

Grayorm":25de3q19 said:


> Abysmal. Hope you didn't pay him. *Is he Gas Safe? He has to be to touch central heating and no Gas Safe plumber would leave that mess.* I take it he didn't want to go below the floor because it's laminate? He should have made that clear before starting work.
> 
> The right way to do it would be to take the laminate up and re-pipe below the floor. You would then have holes where the old pipes were (or at least one), so new flooring (unless you can match it up) required if you want a perfect job. All this should have been explained before starting work.
> 
> ...



Even "tradesmen", as I assume this guy is holding a "GS" cert, can be [email protected]
I think you'll find Gas Safe applies to the appliance only not the rad's etc.
Many people are fooled by someone belonging or claiming to belong to one of the many "trade clubs" and as can be seen "GS" are paper tigers in this case.
There are many competent specific trades tradesmen & non specific trades tradesmen out there, recommendation is usually the start point.

Russ


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## RogerS (8 Jul 2013)

sawdust1":36r2ygzj said:


> .... But Mark surely a towel is to dry off your towels not to heat the bathroom as you stated. ..



A radiator or a towel radiator....same difference..they both give off heat. If you have a 2kw towel radiator then that gives off the same heat as a 2kw normal radiator.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Jul 2013)

RogerS":1nnpi94z said:


> sawdust1":1nnpi94z said:
> 
> 
> > .... But Mark surely a towel is to dry off your towels not to heat the bathroom as you stated. ..
> ...


Obviously, but I for one would fit a towel rail to air a towel, not heat a room. Surely that's rather akin to saying someone bought the wrong kilowatt kettle, because it wouldn't heat the kitchen?


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## Neil Farrer (8 Jul 2013)

Mark, don't know if this helps at all but here goes. This tale might be of interest to you if the company is a bona fide ltd company and there is value to the individual and company in being Ltd. If not then he can probably recommend trading in another company. If there is value to the company then you may wish to peruse a winding up order against the company. I don't know what the regulations are now but this tale happened in the early 90s.

I was a member of the Round Table organisation and the National Conference that year was held at the Rank Organisations Butlins premises at Skegness. The evening meal they provided for a section of the attendees was awful and below the quality expected of the fee so, the duty manager accepted an offer in law of a lower sum as due recompense. A credit card was duly produced, swiped and signed and the contract was amended, accepted and completed. however the duty managers boss later rescinded the contract by ripping up the credit slip later that night. Through the court the rank organisation claimed for the full fee of the meal, which I defended and after incorrectly submitting the claim and then the rank organisation failing to turn up at the specified time in court the judge found in my favour and decreed that the Rank Organisation had behaved unreasonably, which in law allowed the judge to rack up a higher level of costs against the Rank organisation. This fundamentally meant that the Rank organisation now owed me more than they had claimed against us! They failed to pay in the time allocated by the court and I then went to the post office and for a fee of Fourteen pounds filled in a winding up order against the Rank Organisation and filed it. I had the money sipped transferred within six hours!!!

I don't know whether a winding up order would work or be worth it, if the individual lives in his own house is there a possibility that you could put a charge on it against the costs that he owes you? That would make life very difficult for him and whilst not getting your money immediately it would work in the long run.

best of luck


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## Mark Hancock (8 Jul 2013)

phil.p":3m8fpedb said:


> RogerS":3m8fpedb said:
> 
> 
> > sawdust1":3m8fpedb said:
> ...



In answer to the question about a towel radiator heating the room in this case it was a requirement. It was to replace the existing damaged radiator. The bathroom is not large enough to have both a radiator and a towel radiator so the latter had to be capable of heating the room.


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## Mark Hancock (8 Jul 2013)

Neil Farrer":1h0gw43b said:


> Mark, don't know if this helps at all but here goes. This tale might be of interest to you if the company is a bona fide ltd company and there is value to the individual and company in being Ltd. If not then he can probably recommend trading in another company. If there is value to the company then you may wish to peruse a winding up order against the company. I don't know what the regulations are now but this tale happened in the early 90s.
> 
> I was a member of the Round Table organisation and the National Conference that year was held at the Rank Organisations Butlins premises at Skegness. The evening meal they provided for a section of the attendees was awful and below the quality expected of the fee so, the duty manager accepted an offer in law of a lower sum as due recompense. A credit card was duly produced, swiped and signed and the contract was amended, accepted and completed. however the duty managers boss later rescinded the contract by ripping up the credit slip later that night. Through the court the rank organisation claimed for the full fee of the meal, which I defended and after incorrectly submitting the claim and then the rank organisation failing to turn up at the specified time in court the judge found in my favour and decreed that the Rank Organisation had behaved unreasonably, which in law allowed the judge to rack up a higher level of costs against the Rank organisation. This fundamentally meant that the Rank organisation now owed me more than they had claimed against us! They failed to pay in the time allocated by the court and I then went to the post office and for a fee of Fourteen pounds filled in a winding up order against the Rank Organisation and filed it. I had the money sipped transferred within six hours!!!
> 
> ...



Neil

Thank you for that. It is one of the legal remedies I'm looking in to. I have to decide if it is worth it as obviously any action I take will incur further cost on my part although those costs can be added to the claim.


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## whiskywill (11 Jul 2013)

Grayorm":2393d9r3 said:


> Is he Gas Safe? He has to be to touch central heating



Even if the central heating is oil fired, woodfired, coalfired, electricity powered, solar powered or geothermal? In any case he wasn't touching the boiler so it would definitely not be a requirement.


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## Graham Orm (11 Jul 2013)

whiskywill":1cz89uqb said:


> Grayorm":1cz89uqb said:
> 
> 
> > Is he Gas Safe? He has to be to touch central heating
> ...



Gas fired, obviously. And how does shut down the boiler to drain it, re-fill the system and check that it re lights etc without touching it? What does he do if it doesn't re-light or there is a problem re-filling the system?


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## dj. (11 Jul 2013)

Grayorm":3a7jlu67 said:


> whiskywill":3a7jlu67 said:
> 
> 
> > Grayorm":3a7jlu67 said:
> ...



He is using the same controls & filling system the end user could use, hence he is not touching anything the house holder would not be safe to use & as such does not need to be gas safe registered.

Regards.

dj.


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## Ab47 (21 Sep 2013)

Like you Mark Hancock. We had dreadful service from Leyton Brooking with regard to a simple toilet repair. Having been 3 times to sort it,he virtually threatened me to pay in my own home,before I was even happy with the repair. I asked him to leave and rang the police. He hand delivered court papers to our house 2 days later, without even giving us time to play. He was trying to charge us £50 for a part that cost £15!!! I reported him to trading standards who wrote to him. He told lies about what they had said and he pursued to court and then two weeks before the hearing he didn't pay the court fee. A complete rouge trader who should be struck off.


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## RogerS (21 Sep 2013)

Is this him?


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Sep 2013)

:lol: Hard luck for him if he's not!


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## finneyb (21 Sep 2013)

Mark,

Check your house insurance policy - I have Legal Assistance on mine which is just about to go to the CC with the solicitor taking the strain. If you have it let them take the strain. I have had KLM to the MCOL/Small Claims Court on my own account - they paid no problem but then again they have assets. Sadly, I didn't get the chance to impound a plane at Liverpool Airport  

Brian


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## pip1954 (23 Sep 2013)

i think for £60 you can take it higher court and then they will get the enforcement officers to chase down your money and they have a legal charge to to get your money,
as on the tv, they are very good at what they do and know the law, i would think they will get your money but it is £60 quid, they don't charge you apart from the £60 the charges go on there bill so it will cost him more not you and they hound him for the money
might be worth a look.
pip


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