# scratch stock - in the rough



## condeesteso (9 May 2011)

Still working on this, but based on a budget marking gauge (in my case Wickes, about £7, beech, plastic lock screw...). I started by removing the pin and just cutting a slit in the end to take a 2mm blade (some steel I had around, which might be off a nasty v cheap plane), and using a screw threaded straight into the beech to lock the blade - one of those screws that fixes switch-plates to the wall.
That established that I was heading where I wanted. Next a new bar (proper name please?), beech again, with thin kerf 1mm (for ex bandsaw blades).
And a longer fence - happens to be oak, just what was around (the moulding was already on it, way too soon to make this pretty!)

Next steps:, the fence is too deep, the length helps but depth doesn't, especially if you want to hold the stock in a vice. Also the depth of fence is a bit irelevant as 'square' is how well you set (make, even) the blade, and that is quite variable. In practice, if one side cuts deeper than the other, I'll probably look at adjusting the blade relative to the stock - taps etc, like an old plane.

For narrower beads I need one like Garrett Hack's on his video, so I should end up with one pair. In the end I'll try and make them pretty - but not till they work for me first.

Any hot tips and tune ups please - most of this has been guesswork and looking at articles etc. I'm happy a really cheap marking gauge is a good starting point for what I wanted though.


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## kirkpoore1 (9 May 2011)

Nice looking, especially for a prototype.

I'm not sure why you needed the long fence. I have this Veritas scratch stock:




It's got plenty of body for use against and edge, and is short enough to get close to inside corners, like the incised lines around these panels:





Is there a particular advantage to the long fence?

Kirk


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## bosshogg (9 May 2011)

condeesteso":2rwx71qk said:


> Still working on this, but based on a budget marking gauge (in my case Wickes, about £7, beech, plastic lock screw...). I started by removing the pin and just cutting a slit in the end to take a 2mm blade (some steel I had around, which might be off a nasty v cheap plane), and using a screw threaded straight into the beech to lock the blade - one of those screws that fixes switch-plates to the wall.
> That established that I was heading where I wanted. Next a new bar (proper name please?), beech again, with thin kerf 1mm (for ex bandsaw blades).
> And a longer fence - happens to be oak, just what was around (the moulding was already on it, way too soon to make this pretty!)
> 
> ...



shaft


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## condeesteso (10 May 2011)

thank you - shaft it is then!. I have often almost bought the Veritas, and that would be the end of that - anything Veritas I ever get is good, often extremely good.
The only thing with the longer fence is when the cutter is further from the face, I manage to keep it tracking more accurately. It's probably not impossible with the shorter fence, but I wanted to try it longer. And I haven't found a down-side to its length yet... if I do it'll get shortened. Actually, as it evolves it may get ever closer to the Veritas.
I did this partly to replace a shoddy earlier version, and also because I consider scratch stocks to be traditionally shop made - OK I cheat with the Wickes gauge! But so far I'm in for about £7, the Veritas is £55


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## jimi43 (10 May 2011)

Hi Douglas

Great start my friend.

Re the fence...perhaps this could be made detachable....then you could put different sizes of fence on depending on the job. If it registered ok and remained square that is. 

Can't wait to see the results of ths scratchings!

Cheers

Jim


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## kirkpoore1 (10 May 2011)

condeesteso":1jlrh5xz said:


> ...Actually, as it evolves it may get ever closer to the Veritas.
> I did this partly to replace a shoddy earlier version, and also because I consider scratch stocks to be traditionally shop made - OK I cheat with the Wickes gauge! But so far I'm in for about £7, the Veritas is £55



I agree that shop made would be best--I bought mine a long time ago, and would probably make one now instead. (I think it was about $30 back then--they're showing $57 in the US now). I've never had a serious issue keeping it straight, but I suppose some cutter shapes and wood species could have a more of a problem. 

As far as tips on use, just take light cuts to start. A little patience goes a long way. But then, if you weren't patient, you'd be using a rounter and have a different design.

Kirk


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## wobblycogs (11 May 2011)

A million thank yous for posting this with such detailed pictures. In the near future I've got to copy a short section (about a metre) of moulding in our house to replace a bit that's missing and I was going to try and make something like this. The one bit that still confuses me though is how the cutter is made. I'm guessing you just file a piece of steel into shape? Is the end left square or do you put a bevel on it, I can't quite tell from the photos but it looks slightly bevelled. How thick should the steel be, I'm guessing yours is a little under 2mm.

Cheers, Graham


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## Paul Chapman (11 May 2011)

wobblycogs":2a1dnxbe said:


> The one bit that still confuses me though is how the cutter is made.



If you watch this video clip by Garrett Hack, he explains very clearly how the cutters are made http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAn ... x?id=31290

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## jimi43 (11 May 2011)

I have had the pleasure of playing with these scratch stocks this afternoon...as Douglas is nearby, and I have to day that the finish and ease of use are superb...especially since this is only a prototype.

I have not had the need to use a scratch stock before but I think this is something I will be investigating and developing as part of my arsenal. Very impressive piece of kit!

Jim


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## condeesteso (12 May 2011)

I agree the Garret hack video is a must see - I was making the mistake of failing to polish the profile of the cutter. A fine file isn't near enough. The 2 keys to a great cutter are super square (edge to flat, 90 degrees or really close); and a polished surfaces, all 3, both sides and formed profile. I don't have an assortment of slips that are fine enough, so was using v fine wet&dry wrapped round any suitable shape. Various screwdrivers for rounds, and old Stanley blades for vees etc.
I made a little one like Garret's as well as the ones in pics - am very happy with results (will take a couple of pics today).
To be honest the longer fence is prob not a big deal. I expect the Veritas works really well, but if the cutter is further from the head, I do find it easier to track esp if the grain is less than straight . I also suspect that if I get ambitious and make a wide cutter profile (40mm say) the fence will be more helpful. So it isn't a must have, but I don't see a downside. I must reduce fence depth though as that is not useful or helpful.
Sharpening tip - I mounted a small clamp-fix vice onto a bit of L shaped stock, so I can drop the jaws down to just above bench height. When filing and polishing I can use the bench top as a reference for 90 degrees (left hand finger as depth stop, sliding over bench) - it's a development of the way I hone 90 degrees on cabinet scrapers - and I think you can get really close repeatable results with a little practice. Lube the w&dry with spit - no matter how close you keep your WD40 or whatever, spit is always closer 

more news as it breaks...


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## condeesteso (12 May 2011)

Here's the small Garrett Hack style one I made. For the moment it's beech with an M4 that was lying around - the bolt is just threaded straight into the beech as it cuts its own thread fine (bit of linseed oil makes it smooth).
The test beading was on an old bit of pine (might be pitch, not sure) and I was pleased with the result. Obviously getting the blade exactly against the fence is a little tricky, the 6" rule was used to slip in the slot and nudge the blade very small amounts.
Blade stock is tired 1" bandsaw - I have a lifetime's worth as each blade is 12 feet long. If anyone needs any bits (each about 1 foot long) get in touch, i'll mail some out (OK Jim, yours are aside already). I can hacksaw this stock, cutting off teeth just behind them, as they are locally hardened, the rest of the band is workable but hard and springy enough to take a good edge.
The posh version will be the bog oak (kindly donated by Jim). He warned me it's a blade killer, but my LN block took whisper shavings no problem at all. (In my humble opinion, they are extremely good little planes.)
The brass screw was scrounged from Tony at Marples and will need a brass bar extension.
As with all cutting tools, almost all the difference is in the blade... which I am getting better at making sharp.


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## jimi43 (12 May 2011)

Fantastic updates Douglas and glad to see that the offcut of bog oak is going to turn into something beautiful. I think if you try turning that stuff you will see what I mean...but then I use old technology steel so maybe the posh steel is the way to go! :mrgreen: 

I look forward to the continued development of this project...in between fixing up the giant sander...I have been cutting some yew....sap and heart in strangely "bowsaw" shaped bits...

I think you might be interested in that little tangent...WIP coming soon!

Jim


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## condeesteso (12 May 2011)

J - the clue was always in the name... bow saw tells us all how to make it. You're on to a cracker... needs a v stiff stretcher though, hickory may be good, but pit props are chestnut and they hold mother earth up but they are a tads thick. Over to you, you know what to do. You should see the new scratch-stock with the bog-oak, and a lemonwood face to the fence, and Marples brass screw - looks better than Caddie who does SE weather, and Caddie makes even the bad weather look nice


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## xy mosian (13 May 2011)

P.M. sent

xy mosian


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## jimi43 (13 May 2011)

If it looks as good as Ms Lee-Preston....then it must look beautiful!

Come on...pictures!!! I can't wait!

Jim


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## condeesteso (13 May 2011)

It's done, working, cutting nice. V3 is now on the bench... you know how wenge, birds-eye maple and lemonwood look nice together? 

Meanwhile, if anyone else is interested, here's Kaddy with yet another sunny tuesday. Good grief.


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## condeesteso (14 May 2011)

V2 working well and looking nice, V3 underway... wenge maple sandwich - tasty!!


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## Alf (15 May 2011)

bosshogg":l6dupes7 said:


> condeesteso":l6dupes7 said:
> 
> 
> > Next a new bar (proper name please?)
> ...


Stem, I believe.


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## bosshogg (15 May 2011)

Alf":31fd7i5l said:


> bosshogg":31fd7i5l said:
> 
> 
> > condeesteso":31fd7i5l said:
> ...



Also a rod...in fact quite a few terminologies have been used from time to time, although stem is often more of an Americanisation in books and mags and I believe online. Autonopedia being one example. But again I refer to my earlier statement, quite a few variations have been used from time to time.. the stem and stock...shaft and fence...rod and head (or block) my own experience, taught to me by my Journeymen, was shaft and fence...bosshogg :| 


> You can't help a man who doesn't tell you what he wants


 (homer)


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## Alf (15 May 2011)

*shrug* Regional differences? I went with Salaman's dictionary, which is neither recent, American, or, heaven forbid, an internet source.


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## condeesteso (15 May 2011)

Stem and stock sounds good to me... as I regard the tool in its entirety as a 'scratch-stock' - so stem & stock works I feel. Talking of journeymen, I came across a Journeyman's tool bag recently, circa 1900, Canadian (or poss N E States). About 20" long, a roll of thick leather, circular wood ends, 2 straps wrapping round the cylinder into a handle. I have a pic somewhere, and plan to make a copy. Have made the wood ends already (cherry, but the original was rough softwood). Sorry to digress!
Now, just found the pic, see thread re 'tool bag'.


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## bugbear (16 May 2011)

I once put some research into this subject:

http://replay.web.archive.org/200909030 ... ratch.html

BugBear


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## condeesteso (16 May 2011)

Thank you very much Bugbear... I have just had a quick look but will go back over more closely. Just close to finishing the V3 basic one (G Hack's with a few bits on), then I return to the bigger one with 'stem and stock'... - here's V2 (bog oak / lemonwood) and V3 getting close (wenge / maple) plus brass-faced fence:


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## jimi43 (16 May 2011)

I am so pleased that you put the bog oak to such fantastic use! Now all you have to do is sit there watching re-runs of "Heartbeat" and rubbing hard wax into it! My plane turnscrew has just reached maturity after about a month of treatment.

It's the only thing I don't like about oak in general...the open grain.

I take it you will be bringing the prototypes around for inspection this week!?

Jim


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## bugbear (17 May 2011)

condeesteso":11si7s5y said:


> Thank you very much Bugbear... I have just had a quick look but will go back over more closely. Just close to finishing the V3 basic one (G Hack's with a few bits on), then I return to the bigger one with 'stem and stock'... - here's V2 (bog oak / lemonwood) and V3 getting close (wenge / maple) plus brass-faced fence:



Hmm. That design shows a little too much Garret Hack for my liking. There doesn't seem to be any kind of depth control either gradual (normally provided by rolling the stem onto, or away from, its edge) or final, when the stem hits the workpiece and prevents and further cutting.

BugBear


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## condeesteso (18 May 2011)

Hi David - yes, to a point I think. First this is the basic mini-version. I still intend to return to the stock & stem variant which will be the more versatile tool. I got sidelined by this one, then got too carried away making it. The very first works just as well as V3 will so technically progress has been nil (thumbscrew quicker than M4 bolt, but that's about it!).
With this one I do find there is enough angle towards or away from you to adjust cut from almost nothing to 'maximum' at around 10 - 12 degrees - and more fine cuts works best for control and finish. Depth stop is the pencil line along top of profile on the stock - as that begins to go you're there. An issue is swarf build-up around the cutter and into the slot it sits in - the shoulder on the fence causes that so GH's very basic block won't have that problem. I have better blade support but the swarf problem.
Starting again, I would concentrate on the stock & stem version - It's next to do... keep that simple and invest the time in great blades and sharpening technique.
I'll get V2 to Jim - let him test it and do an unbiased user feedback.


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## bugbear (18 May 2011)

condeesteso":htvr6wyp said:


> Depth stop is the pencil line along top of profile on the stock - as that begins to go you're there.



I'd call that working to a line, not an (actual) depth stop. I prefer a depth stop,.

BugBear


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## xy mosian (18 May 2011)

Today I received a parcel of scratch stock blade blanks from condeesteso.
He now officially is a member of my 'TOP BLOKE' list.
This forum allows bodgers, and craftmen to get hold of small quantities of what some would regard as junk. Also to share in the knowledge required to change something on the face of it of low value into treasure. I refer in this case to this post about making scratch stocks.

A public thank you to condeesteso.

xy


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## jimi43 (18 May 2011)

You should be so lucky XY! I gave him a piece of bog oak on his last visit and he goes away and turns it into a masterpiece....the one on the left above!

Now I am a kack-handed amateur but in a few passes...I had almost mastered this little gem...and was making beading for my box lid like a good-un!

The tightening mechanism is a particularly nice piece of work! I can see a few weeks of making all sorts of shapes to try out.

Thanks for the gift Douglas!!!

Jim


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## wobblycogs (18 May 2011)

I also have to thank condeesteso for some blanks. He's been kind enough to supply me with what will probably be a life times worth of material at the rate I normally work . 

I was going to pop down to the shop now and get started making up my first profile but it sounds like the young un has just woken up. Ho hum maybe tomorrow...


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## condeesteso (19 May 2011)

Hi all - i have a plan now. No more messing about! - back to stock and stem version, and one challenge to myself. A bead profile and a string inlay on cross-grain mahogany, under something approaching commercial pressures (though I'll have to spend a bit of time prepping the stock/stem first).
I think this is a real challenge for a scratch-stock, and I won't be happy with tear-out so I reckon it's a big ask demanding really good blade preparation. Have some box 1.5mm string.
I have an idea re blade profile for the string I am going to try.
If I succeed with the string then that's the way I want to do it in future.
Will report back, failures etc and all.
And no this is not an aesthetic exercise - i would not put these 2 together normally - it's just a challenge.
Probably go quiet for a while now... pics as it progresses.
Any tips welcome of course. And anyone else wanting 1" bandsaw blade stock just shout (just acquired another 12 feet, in a manner of speaking...)
Douglas


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## xy mosian (19 May 2011)

condeesteso,
I too will be scratching? cross grain mahogany in the not too distant future. One tip I have been given, I cannot remember where now, is to brush thinned pearl glue onto the mahogany before starting. Apparently it binds the fibres together. A friend of mine who makes cellos does exactly that before cutting the groove for the purfling on the fronts of his instruments.

I look forward to seeing how you get on. my own efforts are about a week or two away.

xy


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## xy mosian (19 May 2011)

Found it, from Pekka, sorry to have mislaid this Pekka.
This is from a reply to an older post of mine.
scratch-stocks-used-across-the-grain-t44189.html?hilit=%20cross%20grain



Pekka Huhta":2y1g51c5 said:


> On an ellipse you can use the scraper about 80% of the time, so you don't have to re-design your work. I love elliptical designs, it would be a pity if you had to lose the shape just because of some ornaments.
> 
> End grain is no problem on scrapers. You may have to harden the fibres by applying some shellac to the wood, but it can be done. And you can always use chisels on the short distance that you can't scrape. It may not look perfectly identical but if you cut the edges with a mortice gauge with sharp cutting knifes. That way you get the edges crisp. If the scraped molding has some other sharp shapes on the profile, you can cut them as well with the mortice gauge and do the rest slowly by alternatively scraping, chiselling and, finally, sanding the molding. It is surprising how much the molding itself can vary if the edges are sharp and nice.
> 
> ...


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## condeesteso (20 May 2011)

The shellac or dilute pearl glue makes a lot of sense. It hadn't crossed my mind the ways instrument makers need to form profiled edges across grain on tops - this sounds good as I imagine it will fix the very top fibres.
The string blade - was planning to create a profile with slight hollow concave top (bottom of channel) in order to try and make the tips / corners more into cutting edges, to try and slice. Also a very slight clearance return on the vertical edges, so it narrows a tiny bit from top. The channel would have a small raise at base but I don't think that matters, making the top of raise say 1.4mm down. Sharp cabinet scraper to finish the string to level. that's the idea so far on that one.
need to fit this around other things so a couple of weeks is realistic. Keep in touch!


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## xy mosian (20 May 2011)

You may also see this post in a diferent thread, my duff brain I'm afraid.



Woodwould":2xxbs5tb said:


> Cross-grain moulding is something I enjoy doing, but as others have said, tear out is always a possibility.
> 
> Depending on the wood, either a lubricant or a solidifier often helps. Lubricants can be anything from washing-up liquid, meths, or white spirit – or a combination. Solidifiers can be animal glue or shellac, both of which can be disolved and flushed out afterwards.
> 
> I made this cabinet a while ago with various cross-grained mouldings.



This from further along in the same post, I knew I'd seen reference to animal glue somewhere but had forgotten the lubricant.

xy


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## wobblycogs (21 May 2011)

Since Condeesteso was kind enough to send me some metal to make cutters I thought only fair that I show you all my efforts so far. My design is pretty much exactly the same as the one Condeesteso started the tread with just without the fence extension. I got a cheap and very nasty marking gauge from Tool Station, cut a (wobbly) slot in it with a hack saw and fitted a 6mm bolt. Using a range of small files I copied the profile of the moulding I need to replicate (it's quite hard to get a really good match and I was pressed for time). I then polished all parts of the cutter to a mirror finish using a combination of whetstones and the polisher on a Tormek. As you can see the end result is a pretty good match for the original, certainly good enough that I can merge the two together with a bit of filler and sanding so I'm happy.











Thanks for your help, I look forward to seeing the the final version of the real thing which I'm sure will be a work of art


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## condeesteso (21 May 2011)

Wow! - very good indeed. I was supposed to be going out today (sunshine etc) but got distracted. have hacked some depth and a bit of length off the added fence (Wickes Mk1 we're talking here). Also routed some 45 degree chamfers either side of the cutter. Made a string cutter - basically 1.47mm wide, 1.4mm deep - pic below. The flats are rounded (blunt) to act as a depth stop.
Sizing was critical so the micrometer came out. I have been using anything I have around to sharpen - had an old ceramic fine stone (why on earth did I buy that?) which is actually quite handy for some of this.
Anyway, just tried mahogany end grain - first dry (no shellac) and was pleasantly surprised - so then a thin shellac... better still. No pics yet, too busy makin' dust.

The bead is another story - I had a small bead cutter (about 3mm across) and the top breaks off the bead in places - there is so little material support at apex of bead so no surprises.. Next will try a bigger bead - it looked way too small anyway.
So, at this stage the problem hasn't really been the stringing, but the beading. More work to be done...

(In pic there's a bit of very nasty oak I tried first - it's grotty branch-wood with knots and all-over grain, generally used to test blades on)


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## xy mosian (21 May 2011)

Crikey the two of you are galloping away, some good looking blades there.

I needed to remove excess stock from my frame today and used a spokeshave, across the grain in mahogany. Without some sealer there was tear out. Well looking to my own tip I used animal glue, it worked well but there was a depth limit, of course. This meant a re-application of the glue and the consquent drying time. Now I expect that shellac would work in the same way, but with the advantage of drying much more quickly.

I have transfered my profile to the blade blank, using a computer printed sticky label, and am planning to shape/hone tommorrow. The stock? Well that is to be fairly straight with a built in fence, nothing adjustable except depth.

Have fun guys. xy


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## wobblycogs (22 May 2011)

That's very good of you to say but xy but I would hate anyone to think I was in trying to steal condeesteso thunder. He's clearly researched this and come up with a good simple design, I just had a morning spare and copied what he'd done.

Anyway... I was thinking about this cutting across the grain problem and it occurred to me that diluted sanding sealer would probably work. I used to do a bit of turning a few years ago and occasionally when I turned wood that was soft (say where there was some spaulting) I'd soak it in sanding sealer first to give a good finish off the tool. Worth a try as it dries in a couple of minutes when it's warm.


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## xy mosian (22 May 2011)

wobblycogs":3nx8397y said:


> Anyway... I was thinking about this cutting across the grain problem and it occurred to me that diluted sanding sealer would probably work. I used to do a bit of turning a few years ago and occasionally when I turned wood that was soft (say where there was some spaulting) I'd soak it in sanding sealer first to give a good finish off the tool. Worth a try as it dries in a couple of minutes when it's warm.



You are quite right. Today I finished the blade and of course just had to try it out. Pictures just as soon as I can figure out the best way. Initially I was working with an animal glue sealer that I applied yesterday. As soon as I was through that I went to try shellac as sealer, but had none. Shellac sanding sealer shouted at me from the shelf and Hey Presto, it works nearly as well, didn't quite have the penetration of the glue, but thinning it would sort that problem.

xy


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## xy mosian (22 May 2011)

Well here we are then, an image of my scratch stock, as you can see it's nowt but a bit of stick really. The blade is piece of the bandsaw blade that condeesteso kindly sent and seems to work well. I tried it this afternoon and came to some conclusions.

Working cross-grain in mahogany a sealer of some sort is almost essential. My choice would be shellac based, mainly for the quick drying but it might also have something to do with the smell  I found it necessary to renew the sealer just as soon as the scratch had gone through the sealed layer.

Strangely the shellac sealer had a pronouced effect even if I carried on scratching before it was quite dry.

Leaning the blade forwards of square to the surface reduced tear out, to such an extent that I would consider forming the blade to give correct the profile when working at an angle.

Cross grain there were no little curls of wood, just dust really. A small pointed object was handy to clean this away from the blade. A Stanley craft knife worked well.

A light touch was essential.

It is probably a good idea to make sure no neighbours are around when you cheer with joy as you find success.  

Thanks condeesteso for sending the blades to urge me on. I hope these findings are a help.

xy


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## wobblycogs (22 May 2011)

I like that holder design, the problem I found with mine was that it was bloomin' hard on the hands. I only cut 100mm or so as a test and I was already looking for the gloves.


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## xy mosian (22 May 2011)

Thanks wobbly, a very basic design, but this is to work on a curved surface and I could not quite figure out just how to organise fences etc.. Perhaps what you have not seen is the angle of the 'stock' in the area of the blade. This is to get around a non-square frame edge. Definately non standard. That being so it seemed silly to spend time maikng a more versatile blade holder. I can see me making a stock along the lines of condeesteso's Wickes modification. They are useful, Wickes that is, afterall.

Ther is a little slippage of the blade, slot slightly too wide, and I will be adding another screw to the right of the blade.

xy


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## condeesteso (23 May 2011)

Hi Wobbly and xy - pleased the blades are working out fine. We are all finding almost exactly the same results and issues I think. I have been using sanding sealer (Liberon) - I assume it is shellac based, thin and dries v quick. I'm not at all expert on shellacs - when someone mentions a 4 pound cut, I am expecting a very large bag of Pablo's finest 
Blade angle seems important, and very forward with light cut helps generally I found. That was where the routed chamfers on the stem came from. I find the stem very handy as I hold that with left hand to pull the fence to the stock - accurate tracking being a must - especially when cutting the slot for stringing say.
Still have the top of bead crumbling a bit, but it's getting closer, and the last attempt was after I had formed the bead on the bad oak, so blade maybe needed a new hone. (Bad oak is some scrap I have left from the wshop build 4 years ago - it was green structural, now dry, and has awful grain - treats most blades with contempt.)
Main thing is I am now happy this can be done (by me I mean, it has obviously been done in years gone by as many a fine piece of furniture will witness).
On depth stop, I have blunt shoulders on the string blade, which act as depth stop. On bead cutter, I resort to the traditional method - I stop cutting when I reach the correct depth 
Having spent too long making a pretty Garrett Hack - style stock, I have no intention of making anything else along these lines just now, as the Wickes Mk1 works fine (and my fancy wenge/maple item will probably gather dust).

Here's the story so far:


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## wobblycogs (23 May 2011)

Very impressive work. Your latest beads are within a torn out fibres breadth of perfection (sorry for the really bad pun). The string is looking spot on though, I'd be really chuffed with that. 

Like you and xy I noticed the tool cut a lot better on the push when tipped forward and that got me thinking, in use it's a lot like a scraper so what if I ran a piece of hardened steel carefully around the edge of the cutter to try and make a tiny burr. I've only given it a quick try before work this morning but I'm inclined to say that the cutting action has improved. Interestingly the cutting action seems to have improved most on the beads as they correspond with the easiest areas to put a burr on the cutter. The flat areas of the cutter are essentially impossible to burr due to their size but I find they cut well anyway. Might try experimenting more later.


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## xy mosian (23 May 2011)

That is tremendous work condeesteso, I am particularly impressed with the stringing. Was that with 'spurs' on the cutter? This shaping of small cutters is testing out my needle files, and glasses. The glasses are easy to sort the needle files less so, does anyone know where I can buy needle files in ones. The sets are often only half used, and of poor quality.

The bead is interesting, I can see why they break away at the crest. When I get back to mine I must try more sealer. One distinct advantage of working cross grain is that the sealer soaks along the grain of the bead, and may give more support. What I don't know yet is how much effect all this shellac sealer will have on subsequent finishing.

Wobbly, that idea of using a scraper edge sounds interesting, do mind if I give it a try? 

xy


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## wobblycogs (23 May 2011)

Be my guest xy, I've got a mountain of work to do so I may not get round to trying it any time soon. 

As for files I just bought a set of 10 from ToolStation. They were unbelievably cheap (2.99 IIRC) but the quality seems to be pretty good. At that sort of price though if they go blunt after a few uses I don't really care.


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## jimi43 (23 May 2011)

I think that files should be treated with the same viewpoint as plane irons.

We don't get the "cheese" type irons because they may work once but then...we would need to throw them away. 

Files however, I think because the little cutting edges are so darn small...get used to oblivion and back...and most are generally only good for one outing.

Nicholson files are darn good...Vallorbe...well...they are special...and I think you will find that if you only use certain ones...(as you are finding you do)...just buying those singles will work out far greater value for money than a cheaper set.

This Stubb Set (long out of business) are really great value for money...I have ordered a set myself!!!!!

I was looking for Stubbs ones as I used to use these at work. If you clean out the files after each use...particularly using on non-ferrous metals...then they should last ages.

Using a quality file from a good maker is like using a quality plane after using a Handyman for years....

Jim


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## xy mosian (23 May 2011)

Thanks wobbly, I'll certainly try the scraper on my next profile. I think I have this one just right so I'm loathe to fiddle.

Jim, you are absolutely right, I've just found this company. http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/6/1078/1595.aspx. I almost wish I hadn't. The range is incredible. I will look into the Stubb' s set. I once met a guy who had trained as a sticher at Stubbs, fascinating.

xy


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## condeesteso (23 May 2011)

Woah! thank you but... it's not bad, getting there, there are issues that the pics don't show clearly, but most of that is me controlling the tool - i.e. tracking. I have more to play with on this but the shellac is helping (even a second etc wipe). I gather you can wash it mostly away after (meths??).
XY - no, I never tried the spur idea, started with cutter square and it worked oK so stuck with that. Drawing an edge (as on a scraper) may be v good. It leads to the idea of a one sided blade, pull or push only, and work from other end of stock as necessary.
Interesting I am using this pulling as I feel it is under more control. Whatever works is good I reckon.
FILES - hey Jim, you just hit my new topic / issue. I found some Nicholsons in the local hardware store (one of the last proper ones around I fear) - about 6" long and around £4 each. What a difference. I need the needles to do the finer shaping, but these Nicholsons slice away the cutter stock lovely. Will definitely check the Stubbs, but may well be back in the hardware shop to gather a few more, they are so good, and I agree about just getting the shapes I actually use.
More news as and if I have any!!


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## jimi43 (25 May 2011)

Hi Guys..

Managed to nearly put myself back into hospital yesterday...silly me! Those castings on old American sanders are deceivingly heavy! I was therefore in Annie's bad books and banished to the bench with the scratch stock where I could do no harm!

But...I had a think in doing this...and looked at the blade you gave me Douglas....and noted that it was very blunt even after only working on the soft pine. So...I fettled it back to pointy and then heated just the tips over a gas flame to red heat and then plunged in the chip frier (don't tell Annie!  ) and thus hardened the steel.

I then tested it on my ever-suffering piece of mahogany...prepared as a square edge for the purpose...and the difference was astounding....






I only had an inch to play with but even on end-grain it whizzed through!

I am off to make a banding stringing profile and have a play this afternoon...but I did get Annie to assemble the belt sander first! (see Walker Turner thread!)

The Stubbs files should arrive today with any luck...more on that later!

UPDATE EDIT

Yes...they arrived and what a bargain at £18!!!






The set of needles






...and the mid-sized ones...






Well worth the money...

Cheers guys!

Jim


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## bugbear (25 May 2011)

condeesteso":37fcyuml said:


> Drawing an edge (as on a scraper) may be v good. It leads to the idea of a one sided blade, pull or push only, and work from other end of stock as necessary.



Many scraper blades are way to complex, and small, to be burnished. It's also very helpful (on dodgy grain) to have a free choice of cutting direction.

Just file 'em straight across, and stone them if you have small and fine enough slips. You trying to make a perfect cutting edge, albeit with a bevel of 90 degrees.

BugBear


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## AndyT (25 May 2011)

Thanks for that tip on the files Jimi - I saw it in time to order a set. I think you should be on commission - unless this seller who happens to have a warehouse full of old stuff is someone with a weakness for infills, exotic timbers and old american power sanders!


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## condeesteso (25 May 2011)

My Stubbs needles are on the way too. Interesting re heat-treating the scratch blades - makes sense so I suppose I need to try it. I'll get over soon and have a look. Didn't see the mid-size files, need those too !!
Re burnishing, understood and agreed... I have found I now use it pulling only (better control for me) so I may try it anyway - just to report back a failure. For me this is all an experiment, what doesn't work often tells me more than what does work. I mean if it works well then you don't learn what made it work.
Jim - next time you need something shifting, happy to help - be careful for a while.


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## xy mosian (25 May 2011)

Jimi, that is a good tip on the hardening, now where does swimbo hide the chip pan?

I tried a scraper edge on the blade, basically although it worked it made re-honing more difficult. As bugbear says a square edge worked as well, and bi- directional, and was easier to 'sharpen up'. I did find that the angle of 'lean' with a scraper edge was more specific, in that it didn't work as well over a range of angles.

xy


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## jimi43 (25 May 2011)

Glad so many people picked up the tip on the Stubbs files...they really are a bargain at that price...and no..I have no connection with the seller other than recognising a bargain when I see one.

A set like that would set you back over £40 usually! 

There are no rounds in my "set" but I have some excellent Bedfords which I picked up at a bootfair for 50p each and they are superb as they taper to a point in two sizes so they are fit for most jobs.

I wouldn't bother with burnishing either...just file across at 90 degrees...and harden. You can anneal the blade the same way when you need to or just make another one. So far after a fair workout...the tip is still sharp and it still cuts beautifully.

Jim


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## condeesteso (25 May 2011)

that's a cracking profile on the end grain by the way! - need to try the chip-pan technique.


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## jimi43 (25 May 2011)

condeesteso":l6ab6i3v said:


> that's a cracking profile on the end grain by the way! - need to try the chip-pan technique.



I was really surprised actually Douglas...as the results on the pine did not come out nearly as well before hardening.

I'm not sure that the old traditional way was to harden but it certainly worked. It came out of realisation that the blade material was quite soft and the really sharp tip you gave it to me as was actually rounded over after a while and this was visible...not just a feel test.

Oh...and thanks for the offer to help lift heavy stuff mate...I appreciate that...but I think I am done moving big stuff for the moment...just the sander to move from the garden to the workshop but I will disassemble it for that.

Jim


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## condeesteso (26 May 2011)

Yes, forgotten most of my metallurgy, but there's enough carbon in that stuff to harden v well - as the blade tips bear witness. Will make sense on the string cutter as re-honing will remove some stock and hence take it undersize in no time. Set aside for the moment though as I have a wee pile of ash to prep and stack


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## dunbarhamlin (26 May 2011)

Master Hack also hardens any profiles he thinks he may reuse.


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## condeesteso (26 May 2011)

Bugbear's right - tried drawing an edge and apart from the difficulty of scale I am unconvinced. The persuit is the making of a perfectly sharp edge with a 90 degree bevel. So back to the files and honing, I'm sure that is the correct way. I need to find ever finer materials to finish - hone.


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## xy mosian (26 May 2011)

On the sides I ended up with very fine, of course I've forgotten the grade just now, wet and dry. On the edge I tried the wet and dry but found that I lost the 'flat', that is I lost the square corner, so I returned to a well worn oil slip stone.

HTH xy.


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## jimi43 (26 May 2011)

I'm not entirely convinced that honing is necessary Douglas.

I have a feeling that this material acts more like a scraper and the key to a sharp edge is a perfect right angle filed so a small burr is evident on the edge. It's just a thought....I am new to these things.

Jim


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## bugbear (27 May 2011)

jimi43":3bd98bcf said:


> I'm not entirely convinced that honing is necessary Douglas.
> 
> I have a feeling that this material acts more like a scraper and the key to a sharp edge is a perfect right angle filed so a small burr is evident on the edge. It's just a thought....I am new to these things.
> 
> Jim



In my testing, I found a nicely honed edge cut better, and lasted longer, than an edge that was only filed.

BugBear


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## condeesteso (27 May 2011)

I accept well-filed should be good, but will certainly have something of a rough edge. It seems logical to me to aim for a chisel-edge, but 90 degrees - i.e. honed, polished etc. But I'll find some more time to try making a few new cutters - plus the heat treating, then final hone. Report back then. AND, the Stubbs just arrived (the larger set, awaiting the needles). Wow, they are good. I think they cost £40 for about 20-odd files and the quality is really impressive. What does everyone do re handles, I do not fancy turning up 20-odd handles - do you make a few and interchange them?? If so, any tricks about getting them to fit well but change easily?


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## jimi43 (27 May 2011)

Hi Douglas...

I think I have a spare needle file handle you can have next time I see you. I will go dig in the cave.

Anyone else thinking of getting any can they let me know...apparently I have three round ones waiting for me for free...seems there can be some commission if you ask! :mrgreen: :wink: 

Jim


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## bugbear (27 May 2011)

condeesteso":1nytyig3 said:


> I accept well-filed should be good, but will certainly have something of a rough edge. It seems logical to me to aim for a chisel-edge, but 90 degrees - i.e. honed, polished etc. But I'll find some more time to try making a few new cutters - plus the heat treating, then final hone. Report back then. AND, the Stubbs just arrived (the larger set, awaiting the needles). Wow, they are good. I think they cost £40 for about 20-odd files and the quality is really impressive. What does everyone do re handles, I do not fancy turning up 20-odd handles - do you make a few and interchange them?? If so, any tricks about getting them to fit well but change easily?



You can buy handles with collets for the purpose.

Or you could use a pin vise.

BugBear


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## jimi43 (11 Jun 2011)

How's it going Douglas? My hardened scratch is still as sharp as it was out of the fire...

Interesting video on Fine Woodworking this week:

Click here for video

Jim


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## condeesteso (12 Jun 2011)

Ah yes... got badly side-tracked by the ash 'mountain' that needed prepping. Made another 'Wickes' during the interlude, see below. Came out left-handed - weird that :shock: 
I need to make a couple of more blades and heat treat them. I know I have to hone them mirror-like (you are representing just filing). I still have to get a good result across grain forming a smallish bead. It can be done, but I haven't managed to my satisfaction yet. I'm looking for an actual piece I can use this on - maybe a pair of mirrors coming up. But I am convinced it is now a part of the tool arsenal, t be used with 'confidence' - and it is so versatile and quick.
During the second interlude, I cleaned an old drill that was lying in the retired tools box - my very first hand drill it was. Nothing at all to do with this but nowhere else to put it!
then I discovered the chuck won't take my chatter-free countersinks... doh!!

p.s. when you say 'out of the fire' I think you mean 'chip pan'?


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## jimi43 (12 Jun 2011)

Hi Douglas....

Nice one mate! What is the wood for the block? Is it your maple again? 8) 

Did you see the video? Note how the burr is removed but the 90 degrees seems to be critical. 

I have some of those machine files if you want to try them...they are spiral ground...rather interesting things if you haven't used/seen them before...though I may be teaching a grandmother...... :wink: 

Yes..out of the chip pan is what I meant! :mrgreen: 

Re the drill...have a look at my collection of hand drills next time you are over and if one of the chuck suits your chatter free countersinks it's yours. 

Jim


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## condeesteso (12 Jun 2011)

yes Jim - maple has some heartwood through it, and wenge. Brass pressure strip and fence faces, 2 brass lock screws for the blade (brass nuts inset out of view). Works fine, honest... it's just I have become attached to the very basic Wickes V1. It's all about the blades from now on (that may be my single greatest 'truism' in the world of working wood, ever maybe!). You will be trying the V2 v soon anyway.

p.s. yes, saw the video. V good... almost perfect But he didn't hone the finished edge !! Oh well, time will tell


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## Woodwould (10 Jul 2011)

In my experience, honing is essential and only takes moments. I wrote a little about it here. http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/making-mouldings-from-scratch/


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## condeesteso (13 Jul 2011)

excellent piece. I'm still working with mine, and resolved honing, and hardening (no annealing). Re the stock I am planning to open slightly the clearance in the fence where the blade recesses, as swarf gets clogged in the tight gap. had mine working very well yesterday on some satin walnut. Need to work up to some more ambitious profiles next. End grain is still tricky but a hard sharp blade is an essential starting point I think, along with the shellac trick. Basically, brilliant tools!!


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