# Shoulder plane choice



## Anonymous (15 Apr 2004)

Folks,

Need a bit of advice, or insights into experiences; I've embarked on a project which requires the use of a shoulder plane, which I don't own, so I need to buy one. Hence the question. It seems there are 3 good quality choices (new) - L-N, Veritas and Clifton. I've heard that the Veritas is better than the L-N, but how does it compare to the Cliftons. Also, which Clifton? The 3110 looks good, for the multi uses, but I'm leaning more to the 410 or 420 on the grounds they're not jack of all trades. The Veritas may be hard to come by too - do Brimarc have stock? Are there alternatives, from Ray Iles for example?

Tell all your tales here, and point me in the right direction! Please.

Cheers,
~Esp


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## Chris Knight (15 Apr 2004)

Esp,

Like any other plane you need lots, as many as you can get in fact!

Seriously, they are very collectible and as they are also very useful it is only too easy to wind up with quite a few. Having travelled this route myself, I have to say that it is very nice to be able to use a plane that is of a size that matches the job in hand. Whilst it is perfectly feasible to make do with one that is too big or too small, it is far, far preferable to use one of the right size.

If you are going to err - as you surely will if you only get one, I would suggest erring on the smaller side and rather than the Clifton 3110 (which is a very useful plane - and I know 'cos I have one), I would start with their 410.

The new Veritas looks interesting but I have not used it so can't say how good it is. Just bear in mind that a sharp shouler plane is a delicate/precision tool - it does not need a lot of shoving.

When you really feel the urge for a bullnose or a chisel plane, then get the 3110 by all means. And when this seems a tad too small, send off for a LN/Record type 073 - it's the Magnum 44 of shoulder planes. Having got this far in your understanding of the delights of these little fellows, you will probably want to get the Clifton 400 teeny weeny bullnose plane.

After this you are ready to hit the auctions for some really nice old stuff because by now you will know what you really need!


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## Anonymous (15 Apr 2004)

Esp,

I was in a similar position 18 months or so ago. I bought a Clifton 3110 from one of the shows, and haven't been disappointed. In fact I was using it yesterday to clean up the long tenons prior to fitting breadboard ends to an oak table top. It's not the most comfortable of planes to hold, but that's probably not helped by my technique.

I've not used it in either bullnose or chisel configuration, but bought it deliberately for its utility in all these ways, rather than leaping straight into the deep end with a single use tool. Having said this, it will of course depend upon the jobs you've got for it, the budget available for tools and the number of jobs in future that are likely to need a ***wide range*** of planes from which you can choose the most suitable!

Not sure if that helps, I know it conflicts with what Chris suggests, but it does really come down to what you expect to use it for :? 

AG


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## Adam (16 Apr 2004)

I've got the LN Large Shoulder plane (see avatar left!). I'm really pleased with it - but haven't tried the others you mention.

To be honest, I think all the suggestions you make will be quite satisfactory, based on what I've read - perhaps you should try and get along to a show and actually try them before making a decision?



Adam


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## Anonymous (16 Apr 2004)

Cheers folks,

I'm intrigued by the veritas, but curious about the need for the knob on the lever cap - none of the others have it! Maybe Rob Lee can give us insights as to why they decided to put it on. The screws to set the position of the iron look like a good idea - certainly in its favour.

Waterhead - I know what you mean about needing loads of planes...my set is growing rapidly. Double figures. Oh dear! And as I said, haven't even got to the shoulder planes yet!

~Esp


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## Rob Lee (16 Apr 2004)

Espedair Street":i8389xh7 said:


> Cheers folks,
> 
> I'm intrigued by the veritas, but curious about the need for the knob on the lever cap - none of the others have it! Maybe Rob Lee can give us insights as to why they decided to put it on. The screws to set the position of the iron look like a good idea - certainly in its favour.
> 
> ...



Hi - 

The brass knob is hard to explain - all you have to do is pick the plane up, and you'll be saying "where have you been all my life!" ! I find it hard to describe it without sounding like a snake-oil salesman. It's as comfortable as a handshake....

Essentially - most shoulder-type planes are difficult to grip, being relatively small, dense, and used in one hand (usually). When we design a plane - we do so from scratch ( yes, we look at previous models too ). We made an evaluation that there should be a more significant horizontal force component to the grip, than existed in other models - hence the "grip from behind" design ( a #90 is an overhand "grip from on top" design). The components which absolutely nail the ergonomics on this plane are the circular body holes, the pivoting knob, and lever cap/handle design. 

Take a look at virtually every other shoulder plane - visualize how it would be gripped - most have a protruding feed screw, and a handle/hand surface which would have one pushing through the heel of the plane - the Veritas encourages pushing through the axis of the blade - holding it is almost the same feeling as holding a comfortable handsaw, without curling your fingers around the handle - the pivoting knob is set to rest in the web between your thumb and forefinger - once positioned, you really wouldn't move it. It pivots, so you get it set exactly for your hand (or right-, and left-handed grips). 

Mechanically - this plane has a superb adjuster, and the four set-screws make blade adjustment a snap. Fit and finish on this plane is also top notch - with bevelled surfaces where your hand may contact them. 

Truly - this design is the most significant improvements made to this style of plane in about a century.

Just to make this interesting - should you buy one, and don't agree with what I've just said, I'll send you 20 pounds towards the purchase of a Clifton 410. (offer to Espedair Street only!!!).

Dare you!

Cheers - 

Rob Lee


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## Anonymous (16 Apr 2004)

Esp
I have the veritas and love it. The brass knob is very useful when pushing the plane and the blade adjustment screws superb. Top quality kit - as well made as my LNs (my LNs are not shoulder planes)
I ordered mine from Canada and it arrived in under 2 weeks + exchange rate is very favourable at present

Trust me, you will not take Rob up on his £20 offer

Tony


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## Anonymous (16 Apr 2004)

Rob Lee":3dl20c10 said:


> Just to make this interesting - should you buy one, and don't agree with what I've just said, I'll send you 20 pounds towards the purchase of a Clifton 410. (offer to Espedair Street only!!!).
> 
> Dare you!
> 
> ...


 
Now that's a dare! Cheers Rob - always good to get the viewpoint of the manufacturer. Do you know if Brimarc has stock, or is it better to order from yourselves directly?

~Esp


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## Rob Lee (16 Apr 2004)

Hi -

Yup- pretty confident on this one...  

Best to check with BriMarc directly for stock though ... 

Cheers - 

Rob


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## gidon (16 Apr 2004)

Was at Yandles today for their show - Brimarc stand didn't have the shoulder plane to see and said they are expecting stock soon! Should have checked but I was sure they would have it by now.

The only thing that puts me off the Veritas plane is its width - a little narrow for trimming typical 1" tenon cheeks. I know that's not exactly what it's for - but when since I can only afford 1 shoulder plane at present it's a big consideration for me.

Have you also considered the LN rabbet low angle block plane - quite a good price and looks pretty versatile. What I would go for in the first instance if I hadn't alreday got the LN low angle block plane.

Cheers

Gidon


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## Rob Lee (16 Apr 2004)

gidon":1qml2df0 said:


> <snip>
> 
> The only thing that puts me off the Veritas plane is its width - a little narrow for trimming typical 1" tenon cheeks. I know that's not exactly what it's for - but when since I can only afford 1 shoulder plane at present it's a big consideration for me.
> 
> ...



Hi - 

A rabbet (I thought you used "rebate" on your side of the pond ...) is a good choice for trimming cheeks - with a skew blade it's better, as there's less tendency to roll the wood fibres...

The Medium Shoulder Plane is .70", but the Large will be 1 1/8"....coming end summer, early fall...

It, too, will be quite a bit different...

Cheers - 

Rob


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## gidon (16 Apr 2004)

Hi Rob - thanks. You're right - it should be rebate - all too easy to slip into American English!

I did hear rumours about a larger LV plane ... looking forward to it. Even more choice! 

Cheers

Gidon


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## Alf (17 Apr 2004)

Rob Lee":2zxa3nps said:


> all you have to do is pick the plane up, and you'll be saying "where have you been all my life!" !


If you can ever *see one* to pick up... :evil: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Philly (21 Apr 2004)

Hi All,
I was hoping to see some of the Veritas planes at Yandles also- the Brimarc stand was a waste of time (unless they sold out on the friday before i got there-in which case i apologise :wink: ) As Gidon said-no planes. Also, next to no Veritas stuff either-I was after their sharpening system. Also no New Yankee plans or videos.......
Come on Brimarc, if your going to do the Shows turn up with some gear! :roll: 
yours unimpressed,
Philly


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## gidon (21 Apr 2004)

Hey Philly,
Brimarc were low stocked - apart from those mobile stands! Hundreds of them. I can't resist a bargain, and now spend all my time in the workshop sliding my table saw back and forth!
Good piece of kit though (HTC 2000) - and at £39 the cheapest I've seen them. Wish I could bin the strange wheel kit (have to make 100 pt turns to move it anywhere having only 2 wheels) that I paid good money for on my Scheppach p/t and get another HTC for that!
Cheers
Gidon


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## Philly (21 Apr 2004)

Gidon,
It must be woodworker psychology or something-I bought the 2000 model as well! :shock: 
Pity about the rest of their stock though  
Cheers,
Philly


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## Alf (21 Apr 2004)

Behold! Veritas on the Brimarc stand:





If it was looking emptier than that by Friday lunchtime, never mind Saturday, I take my hat off to the sleuthing efforts of the average woodworker. I walked past it twice... :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Philly (21 Apr 2004)

By lunchtime Saturday there was nearly zilch left.......
Brimarc must have been surprised how busy it was..........just like at Axminster :twisted: 
Arf!
Philly


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## Alf (21 Apr 2004)

Okay, so it was just me who was looking for plane totes and such in order to indicate "Here be Veritas" then. :roll: :lol: 

I dunno, it just seems such a swizz to me. What's the point of travelling to a show if you can't get to hold, touch and generally drool over the tools you're interested in? Might as well stay at home and use the money saved to take pot luck via mail order. :? 

Cheers, Alf


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## trevtheturner (21 Apr 2004)

There and back - six hours driving, and not much to see, let alone hold, feel and play with.  

Came to the same conclusion as you, Alf.

Trev.


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## Chris Knight (21 Apr 2004)

I wonder if Rob Lee realises what a bunch of no-hopers Brimarc are? I presume he must have tried to do a deal with Axminster and failed to agree suitable terms. I certainly would not like to see a Rutlands exclusive on Veritas stuff, so I wonder where that leaves us? 

Perhaps Rob would like to think bigger and consider a full-fledged Lee Valley setup, franchised or wholly owned?


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## Alf (21 Apr 2004)

waterhead37":3a18awpz said:


> I wonder if Rob Lee realises what a bunch of no-hopers Brimarc are?


I may have, erm, _mentioned_ it to him...  



waterhead37":3a18awpz said:


> Perhaps Rob would like to think bigger and consider a full-fledged Lee Valley setup, franchised or wholly owned?


Oh yes, please do think like that, Rob.  For the good of the Commonwealth and all that. :wink: Can you imagine the consternation in the US if the first LV store outside Canada wasn't in the Uoonited States? :lol:

In wishful-thinking land, Alf


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## Noel (21 Apr 2004)

Rob? What ya reckon? Can you get Brimarc to play ball? I'm sure there are many WWers who only know of Veritas through Brimarc and are totally ignorant of the fact that what they have seen is only a drop in the ocean compared to what is offered in North America.
See what you can do, please.....


Rgds

Noel


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## Anonymous (21 Apr 2004)

I've never used Brimarc and judging by the rave reviews I see here, never will :evil: 

Buy the plane from Canada direct. Mine took 1 1/2 or so weeks to arrive which is probably the length of time people have been complaining about Brimarc in this thread :wink: 

Cheers

Tony


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## Noel (21 Apr 2004)

And if you go cheapie post, it's only 4 weeks or so. Assuming you can wait that long, which of course sometimes you can't.

Rgds

Noel


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## Rob Lee (22 Apr 2004)

Noely":1aql0yw3 said:


> Rob? What ya reckon? Can you get Brimarc to play ball? I'm sure there are many WWers who only know of Veritas through Brimarc and are totally ignorant of the fact that what they have seen is only a drop in the ocean compared to what is offered in North America.
> See what you can do, please.....
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Noel - 

In BriMarc's defense - we only recently released the planes to dealers, and they have been ordering frequently - it just takes awhile to learn what the appropriate product mix is - and, with a capital intensive line like planes, it can be an expensive proposition.

I'll discuss this with our Export Director, and see if we can come up with something to ease the pain...after all, it's certainly in our best interest to have you tempted on a regular basis ....

Cheers - 

Rob


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## cambournepete (22 Apr 2004)

Tony":3gnyxy7a said:


> Buy the plane from Canada direct. Mine took 1 1/2 or so weeks to arrive



How much was the postage, and did you get stung by customs ?


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## Philly (22 Apr 2004)

Rob,
I appreciate Britain isn't a huge market, but us keen WW'ers really like good gear-just a browse through the threads on the forum should prove that. You sell a wide range of innovative quality tools (your low angle spokeshave and dovetail markers are fave tools of mine  ) and it certainly is disappointing when we can't get our hands on them.
Please give Brimarc a gentle kick in the stock area!
regards,
Philly


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## Anonymous (22 Apr 2004)

For info , Jean Burhouse in Scotland, amd Isaac Lord in Bucks both stock Veritas stuff. What I'm not sure of whether they get them from BriMarc, or dieect from Rob


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## Anonymous (22 Apr 2004)

cambournepete":336teryj said:


> Tony":336teryj said:
> 
> 
> > Buy the plane from Canada direct. Mine took 1 1/2 or so weeks to arrive
> ...



Sorry can't remember postage costs - think total was around £70. Nothing from customs for this 
Unlike the LN :evil: :evil: :twisted:


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## Rob Lee (22 Apr 2004)

Tony":350qlox4 said:


> Sorry can't remember postage costs - think total was around £70. Nothing from customs for this
> Unlike the LN :evil: :evil: :twisted:



Perhaps it's because we (Canada) share a Monarch....


Cheers - 

Rob


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