# Food safe wood



## sammo (16 Dec 2013)

Hi, are there certain woods that you cannot use to store food in, bowls, pepper grinders etc.... Any information about toxic wood I have found seems to focus on the dust hazards.


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## KimG (16 Dec 2013)

Well Laburnum is all round not good to eat (Wood, seeds leaves) so that's one that it would be best avoided for using with consumables.

If you are going to make food safe items it's probably best to ask which woods are safe rather than the other way round.

Safe woods are Sycamore, Ash, Holly, Walnut, Beech, Mahogany. 

These can be used even for such things as Salad bowls as they stay pretty stable (though maybe Holly might move a bit, I have found it to be a bit on the mobile side) That's a selection that gives a variety of textures, colours and grain.


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## chipmunk (16 Dec 2013)

Most domestic hardwoods are foodsafe apart from the obvious yew and laburnum but to be on the safe side I'd stick to traditional treen varieties such as the general fruitwoods (plum, pear, apple etc) and sycamore and beech for wood in contact with moist or damp bare food. I'd also avoid using spalted timber though, just good sound wood.

But it very much depends upon the use you're going to put it to. You do need to be more careful about salad bowls, chopping boards and spoons but you could probably get away with slightly less foodsafe varieties for fruitbowls pepper grinders etc because it'd be very unlikely for wet or damp food to be used and to get contaminated.

HTH
Jon


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## sammo (16 Dec 2013)

Hi thanks, I was hopping to use some Yew for a salt and pepper grinder. On the fruit bowl side I have used a piece of spalted maple, but it sounds as though so long as the food is dry and not prepped then things should be ok.

Thinking about it - it would take significant amounts of 'contaiminated' salt or pepper to do anyone harm  

Chris


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## chipmunk (16 Dec 2013)

Chris,
If you are concerned then you could always seal the inside of your salt and pepper grinders with lacquer to make doubly sure.

I have a feeling that Chris West's book on salt and pepper grinders says that seasoned yew is ok for this purpose but I am not 100% sure.

HTH
Jon


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## Bodrighy (16 Dec 2013)

With so many people with allergies nowadays it is always wise to play safe and stick to woods like fruit woods, beech and sycamore. I avoid using any exotics personally. I also use some like hazel and hawthorn if I get them big enough to make something from them. 

Pete


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## Neil Farrer (18 Dec 2013)

sammo":2b3amj3t said:


> Hi thanks, I was hopping to use some Yew for a salt and pepper grinder. On the fruit bowl side I have used a piece of spalted maple, but it sounds as though so long as the food is dry and not prepped then things should be ok.
> 
> Thinking about it - it would take significant amounts of 'contaiminated' salt or pepper to do anyone harm
> 
> Chris



The woodturning fraternity seem adamant on perpetuating rumours about the toxicity of wood and how safe or not it is to use.

Please read these articles and draw your own conclusion. We have become so risk averse that we produce these so called food safe oils yet I dont recall seeing any reports of the hundreds of people dying when wooden bowls and plates were used in the 1700s without the benefit of food safe oil.

Here's the first article:

http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/atoz/l ... roides.htm

and the second:

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-artic ... -toxicity/

In todays technological world we have many ways to prove that something is positive but cannot by definition prove a negative and as such we continue to treat Laburnum and Yew as if visual contact will make us drop dead in ten seconds. Yew is the base of tamoxifen about which I dont know much, but am aware that it is injected as a treatment for breast cancer, so all encompassing claims about the toxicity of Yew should be treated with doubt or total disbelief.

It is however a good idea not to eat things which are not designed to be eaten as these can have a detrimental effect to ones continued well being. Water, drunk in excessive quantity is a poison and can kill but I am still going to have a cup of tea today. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication.

The harsh reality is that more people have died drinking too much water than with contact and subsequent poisoning from Laburnum. So, are you going to use a beautiful wood to make a practical food implement with? I'm still alive (which proves nothing), (annoyingly so according to some), and have used Yew salt and pepper pots, and Laburnum and other woods for bowls and other things which are likely to come into contact with food.

One word or warning though, don't barbeque over Tambootie, it will ruin your day!


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## renderer01 (18 Dec 2013)

Hello Neil Farrer,
Im very glad I fell across this listing, I had a few misconceptions tinged with doubts. Reading the data available in these sites and cross referencing has confirmed that information I had aquired over many years in some cases was spurious to say the least.
I could go into detail but it would require a 10,000 word essay, Let it suffice to say thanks.
Oh and I do take your meaning regarding tambootie lol.
Regards,

Rend.


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## procell (18 Dec 2013)

I have to agree with the comments regarding our ancestors not getting sick from using different types of wood. Over the centuries I am sure someone would have discovered that a particular type of wood was causing certain symptoms every time it was used. However if someone suffers from a Nut allergy then it is often the case that contact with any part of the nut or tree can have a dramatic effect.


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## chipmunk (18 Dec 2013)

Neil Farrer":13b7h4tu said:


> ...so all encompassing claims about the toxicity of Yew should be treated with doubt or total disbelief



Hi Neil,
I think you may be going a bit far there. Just because some extracts of yew are not poisonous in medicinal doses doesn't mean that yew is non-toxic. 

The taxine in yew is a well known neuro-toxin...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxus_baccata

This is obviously only anecdotal but I have experienced two bouts of facial numbness, blurred vision and wooziness after turning which I only later linked to sanding yew without adequate dust protection. Luckily it subsided after a couple of days, a visit to my GP and optician, but I am in no doubt that inhaled yew dust in my nose was the cause of the neural disturbance. I now use a respirator, and direct dust extraction when sanding yew.

Interestingly I have turned tambootie often and never had any ill effects but that doesn't mean I would pour scorn on the claims that it's poisonous.

HTH
Jon


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## renderer01 (18 Dec 2013)

Jon,
In my opinion you have pasted and copied that part of the document out of context and as a standalone comment it reads not as wrote. 
Rend.


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## chipmunk (18 Dec 2013)

renderer01":1lrukt2f said:


> Jon,
> In my opinion you have pasted and copied that part of the document out of context and as a standalone comment it reads not as wrote.
> Rend.



Hi Rend,
Well if I have misinterpreted what Neil was saying then I'll happily withdraw my comment (I did only say I thought he'd gone a bit far) but I have read Neil's post at least 3 times and I'm sure he's suggesting that reports about the toxicity of yew and laburnum are grossly exaggerated.

Jon


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## Kalimna (18 Dec 2013)

As an aside (and I am not convinced that yew, for instance, is dangerous to place in contact with food), the fact that a compound, derived from a plant, is used as a medicine should in fact alert one to its' potential toxicity. Digoxin/digitalis from foxglove, atropine from Deadly Nightshade, for instance. This is not always the case however, and these compounds are frequently in such low concentrations that a heck of a lot of effort is required to produce meaningful amounts. Another compound, derived from yew bark, and used as a cytotoxic drug in the treatment of cancer (quite different to tamoxifen) is one of the most poisonous drugs around - it kills cells to be effective.

Adam


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## Neil Farrer (18 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":1ckh43gj said:


> renderer01":1ckh43gj said:
> 
> 
> > Jon,
> ...



Jon,

You are dead right, the toxicity of Yew and Laburnum are grossly exaggerated, and my slightly flippant comment about water was supposed to emphasise the point that anything that you wish to put inside ones body that was either not supposed to be put there or is put there is excessive quantities will have an adverse effect. That adverse effect we have chosen to ascribe the terminology - Poison - too, a word associated with death, disability and severe illness.

Sorry to hear that you had a severe reaction to Yew dust, but the link that I posted is quite categoric that dust is a severe hazard regardless of its source. We know for a fact that different dusts effect different people in different ways, Cocobolo for instance does not effect me at all, but irritates the hell out of some, However Padauk condemns me to about six days of scratching, and god forbid if I need to pay a visit in the middle of a batch of Padauk turning, this bit is not a joke, nor an outbreak of flippancy believe me! The dust that you inhaled does not mean that Yew is poisonous, and my comment in this sentence does not imply that it is not poisonous, but Yew, wood, dust, leaves, berries (from which you can make a jam) is not poisonous per se.

Your comment, and I am not being critical, is somewhat typical of the way in which the word Poison is proliferated. African Sandalwood, or Tambootie, smells fantastic. Sadly this aroma is the cause of it being overused in that the Indians have burnt most of their own sandalwood at funerals and have now started burning Tambootie. However, if you cook over Tambootie, the smoke of the wood will impart a substance (dare I call it a toxin) into the cooked substance that will at very least give you dysentry like effects and be at best extremely unpleasant. However it doesnt stop me turning Tambootie, nor does the dust give me the desire to run off to the toilet. 

My point is Yew, Laburnum and many many others are absolutely fine to use with articles that will come into contact with food, I have made pepper mills, slat mills and others from it without burdening the NHS or my local funeral director. On that point if you consumed food safe oil it would more than likely act as a laxative but at least you wouldn't die of a nut allergy.


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## Dalboy (18 Dec 2013)

I find that I use many woods for contact with food. I am not saying that some are not good for you but for the food that I am using them for will not be in direct contact with the bare wood as they are sealed with some kind of finish. The main items I do get concerned about are things like chopping boards, mortice and pestles(spelling) these items I tend to head towards woods such as beech and oak for example.


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## chipmunk (18 Dec 2013)

Well I think it's all become very confusing but the bottom line is that toxicity is all a case of dosage, probability and individual sensitivity.

I don't know whether you caught the programme "Pain, Pus and Poison: The search for Modern Medicines" by Michael Mosley but that's where I first came across the concept of the median lethal dose or LD50. This is defined as that dose of a toxin that would kill 50% of those taking it. The upshot is that in a randomly selected population some are sensitive to a particular toxin and others are not but one cannot extrapolate based upon limited data, i.e. your own experience, to the whole population, however tempting.

In essence I would argue that the anecdotal evidence that these woods are safe in contact with food is no more reliable than the observation that people we knew smoked all their lives and never contracted lung cancer. It's a numbers game and so is wood toxicity.

For this reason I wouldn't use yew, laburnum or tambootie for that matter in anything that's in contact with food - especially moist or wet food and I wouldn't use it for toys that are likely to end up in a child or baby's mouth. Isn't that just common sense?

Jon


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## Neil Farrer (18 Dec 2013)

Jon,

A pragmatic approach, and I whole heartedly agree with your sentiments on very young children's toys which could be chewed, I would still be more than happy with salt, pepper mills and other vessels being used made of yew and laburnum. I cant get excited out of using wet foods in bowls anyway or drinking from wooden vessels so the issue wont worry me, but since there has not been one recorded death of Laburnum poisoning I will happily eat in peace next time I do so from any wood platter.


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## sammo (18 Dec 2013)

Thanks for all the advice.


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## duncanh (19 Dec 2013)

Neil Farrer":3cs58lzy said:


> Jon,
> but since there has not been one recorded death of Laburnum poisoning I will happily eat in peace next time I do so from any wood platter.



I sometimes work with someone who told me that when his father was a child he and a group of friends were hospitalised from eating laburnum pods. One of them died. I'll see if I can get more details next time I see him. Obviously this isn't the timber though.


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## Neil Farrer (19 Dec 2013)

duncanh":vhprrw8l said:


> Neil Farrer":vhprrw8l said:
> 
> 
> > Jon,
> ...



Whilst I am not disputing anything that you have been told, there have been no reported cases of human death by Laburnum poisoning - source - The Lancet. 

There are three thousand cases of admissions to A and E each year as a result of children swallowing (or thought to have swallowed) Laburnum seeds which is odd as they reputedly taste disgusting but there is no accounting for taste! Most of these cases are precautionary and most are unnecessary and are as a result of the belief of the toxic effects of Laburnum - Source - The Lancet.

In that Laburnum seeds are not meant to be eaten, it is hardly surprising that they are likely to make you sick. There are many things that will make you sick but are not treated with the same paranoia as Laburnum. Just because Horses in particular have a tendency to drop dead if they eat Laburnum seeds it doesnt mean your next door neighbour will, unless of course they are quoted at 20/1 on the 3.00 at Aintree.


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## chipmunk (19 Dec 2013)

Neil,
Is "death" the only outcome that indicates that something is poisonous enough to worry about? :roll: :roll: 

In the case of laburnum cytisine is the toxin which in small doses gets used as a substitute for nicotine but 34 - 50mg of it can be lethal....

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+3560

Taxine in yew is a more lethal toxin...

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+3541

I suppose I feel that there are so many woods to choose from why would you take risks making stuff in contact with food from either yew or laburnum?

Jon


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## Neil Farrer (19 Dec 2013)

chipmunk":1bxbi2cp said:


> Neil,
> Is "death" the only outcome that indicates that something is poisonous enough to worry about? :roll: :roll:
> 
> In the case of laburnum cytisine is the toxin which in small doses gets used as a substitute for nicotine but 34 - 50mg of it can be lethal....
> ...



Jon,

My main point is that the world has become unnecessarily risk averse and your comments are typical of that point. The comments about Yew in the link you posted, and the poisoning that occured, refer only to the (deliberate) ingestion of a quantity of leaves, not eating half a bowl or a salt mill made of yew.

My point entirely earlier in the thread about water, everything in excess is dangerous, but to compare the deliberate ingestion of a volume (be it undefned) of fresh yew leaves and say on that basis that it is effectively dangerous or at least risky to make a salt mill out of the wood is taking things to the extreme.

We have become so risk averse that the health and safety police are ruining our lives.

Statistically, and let us remind ourselves of a fact, that the NHS have reported no incidence since its formation, of a death as a result of the ingestion of laburnum (Source - the Lancet), yet they are repeatedly dealing with car deaths and pedestrian accidents,

And tomorrow I will drive my van and cross the road, and continue to eat salt from the Laburnum mill that I made three years ago, and hopefully I will survive!


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## chipmunk (20 Dec 2013)

Hi Neil,
I understand your point and agree about the general observation that risk is not treated rationally or in any sort of context and would rather not harp-on...

...but my point here is that whilst it's perfectly ok to voice a personal opinion about the level of risk you are happy to accept, there is a finite probability that if it went unchallenged someone might follow your advice from this forum, turn a green yew bowl (which will almost certainly contain more taxine), use it for salad rather than dry food and becomes sick as a result. Worse still they may sell the thing to a member of the general public and unwittingly cause harm to someone else.

I see absolutely no distinction here between a turner on the forum advocating making turning tools from old files, which would result in howls of condemnation, and your suggestion that yew and laburnum are perfectly safe on the strength of an article in the Lancet that there have been no reported deaths from laburnum poisoning. 

How many old file turning tools have killed people when they have fractured in use? Not many, I'll wager.

Jon


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## Neil Farrer (20 Dec 2013)

Jon,

1) I have never stated that Yew and Laburnum are perfectly safe, nor done so on the strength of an article in the Lancet.
2) It is a fact that there have been no atributable deaths to Laburnum poisoning
3) The simple distinction between turning tools from old files and the applicable toxicity of woods is that one is proven to be dangerous (in that the tools can fracture) and the other is merely speculation, and what is annoying, is that the speculation is perpetuated as fact by some members of the woodturning community.

I trust that your comment "turn a green yew bowl (which will almost certainly contain more taxine), use it for salad rather than dry food and becomes sick as a result" is purely speculative. I think that the aroma of very wet yew (pleasant in my opinion but incompatible with salad!), would deter the enthusiastic new turner from placing a salad in an untreated green bowl anyway, but this is of course speculation, it may well be totally safe.

If someone wants to challenge my personal opinion that's absolutely fine, but I request that they don't present their (not you!) opinion as fact.

Correct me if I am wrong Jon, or anyone else for that fact but there have:
1) Never been any deaths proven to be attributable to eating Laburnum, and
2) Eating Laburnum seeds is a bad move and will give you a stomach upset
4) There are known cases of deliberate poisoning and suicide involving the consumption of Yew foliage
5) There have never been any deaths (sickness not being reportable?) as a result of eating anything from a vessel or plate of Yew or Laburnum.
6) The dust of Yew and Laburnum is a hazard as much as any other wood.

Anyway, we could go on at greater length and the wider woodturning world has probably glazed over and gone off to review their funeral plans. So on that note you are welcome to reply but I will, unless really tempted, refrain from further comment as the wife is getting annoyed! Merry Christmas Jon and sincerely, thanks for the debate.


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## CHJ (20 Dec 2013)

Neil Farrer":3pmwjbwz said:


> ... Yew is the base of tamoxifen about which I dont know much, but am aware that it is injected as a treatment for breast cancer, so all encompassing claims about the toxicity of Yew should be treated with doubt or total disbelief.


Because it is a poison and delivered in the right amounts kills the vulnerable cancer cells before doing too much collateral damage. 
A hand-full of Yew leaves will kill a horse as I've seen for myself when a horse dropped dead in the shafts having just snatched some yew mixed in with hawthorn from a cottage hedge.
Sitting under a Yew tree for shade on a hot summer day for prolonged periods is not recommended either, especially for young children if you don't want them to start hallucinating. (and yes we have experienced that when a helper thought it was a good idea to let them do just that at a summer camp) 

http://poolhousevets.com/Equine/yew-tree-poisoning/
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... 07-055.htm


I love turning Yew both for it's ease of turning and colourful characteristics, but a moments inattention to dust contamination of skin or lungs causes me to reach for the anti-histamine tablets in short order.


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## chipmunk (20 Dec 2013)

Neil,
Sorry to perpetuate this   

I'm sorry that you took exception to my reference to files as turning tools and feel that my example is hypothetical. I accept that the example was entirely hypothetical but all risk assessments are based upon hypothetical events. I hesitate to use this term because it is coupled to the evil "elf and safety" culture but we all make such assessments and calculations when deciding how close to put our fingers to a rotating exposed chuck jaw or wings of a natural edged bowl or blade of the bandsaw.

My point is a simple one....

Knowing what we do about yew and laburnum i.e.

"Laburnum anagyroides (laburnum) is, after the yew, the most poisonous tree grown in Britain. *All parts are poisonous*, especially the flowers and seeds." - from here... http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+3560 

"The genus Taxus includes the yew plants. These plants contain varying amounts of alkaloids (Taxine A and B) that are toxic. The alkaloids are found in *all parts of the plant*. - from here... http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+3541

...and because none of us are able to reliably judge the toxicity of either sort of timber and how much toxin it takes to make you ill apart from anecdotes, *why would you choose to use either for food use when there are loads of other timbers out there, many of which have been used for centuries specifically for contact with food? *

Just because it's pretty and I have some in the right size seems a pretty poor reason to take the chance IMHO. :wink: 

You can always find something else to make from that beautiful piece of yew or laburnum anyway. Or you can think of an imaginative and attractive way to move the laburnum or yew away from the food while still featuring it as part of the item.

Don't get me wrong I'm not risk averse. In the privacy of my workshop I take risks I know I shouldn't. 

My suggestion would simply be to save the risk taking for situations where there is a better cost-benefit return such as rock climbing, bungee jumping, sky diving or even running across the road in front of a lorry to save a few minutes using the zebra crossing :wink: 

Merry Christmas to you too.

Jon


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## Neil Farrer (20 Dec 2013)

How to go round in circles?

Its poisonous, - then dont eat it! Dust is harmful, dont sand it.

Laburnum was used extensively to make flutes, recorders and bagpipes. I dont know how bag pipes work, I dont like them, it sounds like someone has put a cow through a mangle. However, the basics of playing a recorder which Laburnum was used to make is that you stick the damn thing in your mouth and at some stage inevitably you swallow your saliva. If the mouth piece was made of another substance the warm air from your body is still going to warm up and condense on the wood and infuse the wood and get into your system. If this presented a problem with either causing a shortage of living recorder players or condeming them to the toilet for prolonged periods our ancestors would have worked that one out pretty damn quick and changed their manufacturing habits.

If its dangerous, as I've said, don't eat it, and for that matter its not wise to eat any wood, its not good for the system! Just because all parts of it are described as poisonous doesnt mean to say that the wood is dangerous. Roads are not dangerous, it is the cars that travel on them that are!

There is a lot more danger (if indeed it is dangerous) associated with making a recorder out of the stuff than a salt mill.

Lets quote Chris West,

" One wood I have used in the projects (Turning Salt and Pepper Shakers and Mills, Page 18) is Yew. Despite the fact that the living tree is toxic, and the leaves and berries are poisonous, I have not seen any conclusive evidence to suggest that dry wood should not be used for shakers or mills."

Merry Christmas - ends


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