# Queen Elizabeth has passed away.



## Dovetail (8 Sep 2022)

I watch the Royals as I like them. I just have seen that the Queen has passed away.

I wish all her family and the nation much sympathy and may the change over be smooth.


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## Dovetail (8 Sep 2022)




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## MARK.B. (8 Sep 2022)

After 70 years of service to the country may she now rest in eternal peace .


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## Garno (8 Sep 2022)

Very sad day for the nation


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## D_W (8 Sep 2022)

A rock solid woman who was class, patience, and subtle warm charm. Rest in Peace, QEII.


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## Sandyn (8 Sep 2022)

Very sad to hear. I had a lot of respect for her.


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## Ozi (8 Sep 2022)

I have always had a great deal of respect for her, never more than at Prince Philips funeral where she sat alone showing dignity and respect for all the ordinary people who had to miss the funerals of their loved ones through the pandemic. 

RIP your majesty


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Sep 2022)

You'll need to shift this to controversial topics before I give my opinion on the monarchy. Sorry.


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## woodieallen (8 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You'll need to shift this to controversial topics before I give my opinion on the monarchy. Sorry.


There's a time and a place. There's the concept of humanity and decency. Of compassion. You clearly have zero understanding of any of those.


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## guineafowl21 (8 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You'll need to shift this to controversial topics before I give my opinion on the monarchy. Sorry.


In the words of Edmund Blackadder, make a sentence out of the words ‘off’ and ‘sod’, then.

RIP Elizabeth II.


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## tibi (8 Sep 2022)

Please accept my sincere condolences. It would be tough to get used to the king, as I always connect UK with the queen.


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## thetyreman (8 Sep 2022)

I am not a fan of the royals but still think it's sad, my mum is in her 70s and remembers the coronation


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Sep 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> In the words of Edmund Blackadder, make a sentence out of the words ‘off’ and ‘sod’, then.
> 
> RIP Elizabeth II.


I didn't mention anything insulting, but thanks for the inane reply.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Sep 2022)

woodieallen said:


> There's a time and a place. There's the concept of humanity and decency. Of compassion. You clearly have zero understanding of any of those.


I am entitled to an opinion, sorry if you don't like it. Or rather I'm not. Besides which I didn't even give it, you thought it.


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## guineafowl21 (8 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I am entitled to an opinion, sorry if you don't like it. Or rather I'm not. Besides which I didn't even give it, you thought it.


You are indeed. Probably not the place to voice (imply) it, though.

Like shouting from the sidelines at someone’s funeral, ‘I’d tell you what I thought of that man, but you’d probably not like it!’


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## Droogs (8 Sep 2022)

gutted, I hope the All father gives her smooth sailings to the afterlife.


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## AJB Temple (8 Sep 2022)

There are quite a few people in the UK who are not royalists. We will now have 12 days of the BBC going overboard for a woman who reached a good age in a pampered life. They've already got BBC1 and 2 devoted to it as well as Radio 4 and other channels with endless repetition. I expect I know where Phil is coming from. This is a wood forum.


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Sep 2022)

guineafowl21 said:


> You are indeed. Probably not the place to voice (imply) it, though.
> 
> Like shouting from the sidelines at someone’s funeral, ‘I’d tell you what I thought of that man, but you’d probably not like it!’


Ah.... I understand. You can say what you like but I can't. OK.


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## thetyreman (8 Sep 2022)

I doubt he's going to change his mind, not everyone likes the royal family you just have to accept that, it's a fair point to make and he's not harming anyone, it's not fair to bring a personal tragedy of his into this either.


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## Noel (8 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> I doubt he's going to change his mind, not everyone likes the royal family you just have to accept that, it's a fair point to make and he's not harming anyone, it's not fair to bring a personal tragedy of his into this either.



I agree, totally unfair and wrong.


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## Jameshow (8 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You'll need to shift this to controversial topics before I give my opinion on the monarchy. Sorry.


As I'd say to my Kids Zipp it....

There is a time and place....

A sad day for her family, our nation, the stability that the Queen imparted will be sorely missed.....


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## Phil Pascoe (8 Sep 2022)

And a very specific thread isn't it. Ok.


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## SammyQ (8 Sep 2022)

I fully concur with AJB. 

Secondly, Phil P. made a point without direct offence. He 'showed his colours' without making any tasteless reference today's news.


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## mikej460 (8 Sep 2022)

Regardless of individual opinions it's going to be very weird singing or listening to God Save The King after a lifetime of having a Queen.

Also, King Charles III has a certain irony for anti-royalists...


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## Dovetail (8 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> The thread title doesn't mention condolences.



I'm sorry I forgot that.


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## artie (8 Sep 2022)

woodieallen said:


> Can't he just STFU for once?


If we all did that, it wouldn't be much of a forum.


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## sammy.se (9 Sep 2022)

Phil didn't say anything wrong. Just chill out everyone.


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## MurphyBrown (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You'll need to shift this to controversial topics before I give my opinion on the monarchy. Sorry.


Completely agree


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## MurphyBrown (9 Sep 2022)

Droogs said:


> gutted, I hope the All father gives her smooth sailings to the afterlife.


This is not the place to express your religious ideals.


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## fixit45 (9 Sep 2022)

MurphyBrown said:


> Completely agree


Yes why did he feel the need to comment at all. Or was it just an opportunity not to miss out on being noticed. Silence is sometimes golden !


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## Suffolk Brian (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I didn't mention anything insulting, but thanks for the inane reply.


Inane? I don’t think so.


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## AJB Temple (9 Sep 2022)

However the media coverage is inane. Headlines this morning that "all of our hearts are broken" and their is an "outpouring of grief from everyone in the country" is simply nonsensical media frenzy.


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## BucksDad (9 Sep 2022)

I saw this quote from her Christmas speech 1957 which I liked

‘I cannot lead you into battle, I do not give you laws or administer justice but I can do something else, I can give you my heart and devotion’

She certainly did that for 70 years. What a wonderful woman


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## Glitch (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I am entitled to an opinion, sorry if you don't like it. Or rather I'm not. Besides which I didn't even give it, you thought it.


It's not a debate on the monarchy.

The OP is expressing sympathy for those that feel the loss following hear death.

Why not let the bitterness out by starting your own thread instead of contaminating someone else's.


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## planesleuth (9 Sep 2022)

Ok then lets stick to the 'rules'....

I don't watch the Royals as I don't like them. I just have seen that the Queen has passed away.

I don't wish all her family and the nation much sympathy and may the change over be smooth.


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## Fergie 307 (9 Sep 2022)

Whatever your views on the monarchy I think we can all have respect for a lady who did her best to fulfil her duty for over seventy years, and mourn her passing. RIP Queen Elizabeth.


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## Fergie 307 (9 Sep 2022)

planesleuth said:


> Ok then lets stick to the 'rules'....
> 
> I don't watch the Royals as I don't like them. I just have seen that the Queen has passed away.
> 
> I don't wish all her family and the nation much sympathy and may the change over be smooth.


You don't have sympathy for the family whose mother/grandmother has just died? What does that say about you, whether the deceased be the queen or your next door neighbour?


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## sawtooth-9 (9 Sep 2022)

Dovetail said:


>



I find the appeal for sponsorship attached here is OFFENSIVE.
REMOVE IT


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## PhilipL (9 Sep 2022)

Yes, her death is one thing. But what is happening around it is highly politicised. I think people should be allowed to point that out.


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## Blackswanwood (9 Sep 2022)

It's a shame that this thread hasn't been accepted by some for what the OP intended it to be - an expression of condolence at the passing of a 96 year old lady who is loved and respected by many (if not universally) and gave her life in service (regardless of views on the monarchy). The fact it's come from someone who runs the site and has a permanent reminder that anyone can sponsor the site on their messages is incidental and not an attempt to cash in on the situation.

She was a truly remarkable person.


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## redefined_cycles (9 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> However the media coverage is inane. Headlines this morning that "all of our hearts are broken" and their is an "outpouring of grief from everyone in the country" is simply nonsensical media frenzy.


The funniest thing yesterday (the radio was on) when the BBC reporter couldn't find a tweet in yhe immediate feed so pulled one out from Modi (the PM of India). As if the BBC of all people don't know that Modi is in the middle of an ethnic cleansing programme and the genocide has been going on for at least 2 years now!

Filthy media I call em. I am sad (in a slightly different way to those that thought of her as the 'nations sweetheart') but not heart broken.

I also totally agree with Phil that maybe the 'controversial topics' would probably have been more appropriate but also undrstand why the OP felt the need to post such a thread. Now the 'heart broken' can look up at Charles in total fondness.

In other news, I was totally heartbroken when Diana died and the circumstances in which it all happened. What an amazing person she was!

Lastly, I come in peace and hopefully won't get ridiculed or banished from this land! Surely we can all agree to disagree and try and get where the other is coming from. It's not as if we're trying to straighten out timber in thw wrong way (that would be me).

Shafiq...


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## Terry - Somerset (9 Sep 2022)

Despite being somewhat neutral towards the monarchy as an institution, I believe that the Queen has consistently behaved with dignity, integrity and decency. She has contributed to the good in society and striven to eliminate the bad.

That her loss is felt more keenly by some than I is understandable, but to do other than (at least) respect their feelings is unnecessary and unpleasant. She was born to privilege but used her position thoughtfully and well. She is to be envied in that she was able to "live" every day until her last. 

Having said that, the prospect of wall to wall media coverage for the next week filled with the trite, repetitive and predictable appalls me. After posting this I will be trawling for a cheap, late availability break somewhere foreign, or fitting out the workshop with cooking facilities and a bar.


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## woodwind (9 Sep 2022)

I'm sad to hear that the Queen has died, but pleased to notice the BBC did not shy away from using the word "died" rather than "passed" and similar which seems to be the norm these days.


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## MikeJhn (9 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Despite being somewhat neutral towards the monarchy as an institution, I believe that the Queen has consistently behaved with dignity, integrity and decency. She has contributed to the good in society and striven to eliminate the bad.
> 
> That her loss is felt more keenly by some than I is understandable, but to do other than (at least) respect their feelings is unnecessary and unpleasant. She was born to privilege but used her position thoughtfully and well. She is to be envied in that she was able to "live" every day until her last.
> 
> Having said that, the prospect of wall to wall media coverage for the next week filled with the trite, repetitive and predictable appalls me. After posting this I will be trawling for a cheap, late availability break somewhere foreign, or fitting out the workshop with cooking facilities and a bar.


In reality it's down to lack of real news on the TV just think how long the Johnny Depp court case went on and how much football we have to put up with on the general news casts.


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## artie (9 Sep 2022)

Perhaps a little levity would help the situation?


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## Argus (9 Sep 2022)

I'm a keen spotter of all things ironic.... sometimes so subtle that it passes without notice.

It has been observed here earlier that the British broadcast media – Radio and TV – is, today at least, largely devoid of anything that is not by, on or about the late monarch.

BBC Radio 4 'Today Programme' is no exception, but I did notice a (probably unintended) irony in a couple of assembled pieces early today.

Around eight o'clock , one observer commented on the Queen’s ancestry...... viz, minor Scottish aristocracy on one side (Bowes-Lyon), and an indirect branch-descent of the continental Stuarts…..

Later the news-round-up included an interview from the 1970s where it was noted that the Queen had an abiding interest in horses and their pedigrees and was intent on improving her stock through selective breeding.

All on the Beeb, however, it's also observed that the last time that the BBC cleared their schedule in this way, that day's viewing figures went through the floor.


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## Spectric (9 Sep 2022)

If nothing else this shows that no mater what title is given to someone they are just like everyone else, human and like everyone else they have a finite life.

What is more sad is that she did not get to enjoy retirement, no one would have cared if she had got to sixty and said that is it, me and Philip are now going to enjoy ourselves at Balmoral and Charles will take over, no one can be expected to work until the end and duty is just an excuse because no one is irreplaceable.


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## Gordon Tarling (9 Sep 2022)

Yes, a sad occasion indeed. Now a small note of levity which no-one else has yet mentioned - this is going to cost Royal Mail a LOT of money!

G.


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## PhilipL (9 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> I find the appeal for sponsorship attached here is OFFENSIVE.
> REMOVE IT



She never lilked paying tax. Maybe she would approve.


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## gasman (9 Sep 2022)

Sometimes it makes me sad logging into this forum. Whatever the subject there are always people who turn it into a slanging match. The whole world has become more polarised. It is sad I think


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## AJB Temple (9 Sep 2022)

Why? Surely it is healthy and stimulating to have a range of opinions. We are not clones. Haven't really seen much slanging, just a bit of censorious finger wagging


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## gasman (9 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> Why? Surely it is healthy and stimulating to have a range of opinions. We are not clones. Haven't really seen much slanging, just a bit of censorious finger wagging


...so now you're arguing with me when I have expressed an opinion. Thats hysterical. Is this a 5 minute argument or the full half hour?


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## D_W (9 Sep 2022)

I remember when Diana died and things went fairly long on the media coverage here, but people were generally focused on the fact that Diana died and how they felt about it. That obviously wasn't without controversy due to the circumstances, but I don't remember anyone in the states fighting with each other about it. 

It seems like we've gotten to the point with the internet that when something like this happens now (death...someone died, it's not a tiktok post), people are more interested in observing the reactions of others so that they can fight with them about it. 

That's a shame.


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## Garden Shed Projects (9 Sep 2022)

I found the headline in the papers last night "The Queen is Dead" a harsh use of language however i did notice that it mirrored the head lines in the papers when her Father died and likely a reference to "The Queen is Dead, Long live The King"

She will be missed by many. RIP QE2.


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## AJB Temple (9 Sep 2022)

gasman said:


> ...so now you're arguing with me when I have expressed an opinion. Thats hysterical. Is this a 5 minute argument or the full half hour?


Nope. Read it again. I asked 2 questions then expressed a short opinion (as did you). There was no argument there. Calm down.


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## Julie (9 Sep 2022)

I for one am sad to see the passing of a an amazing, warm, intelligent and wise Woman who has been the glue that bonded a disparate nation together, may she find a peace and tranquility in the afterlife she did not know on earth, and to the previous commenter how would you feel if on the death of your father you had to take up the duties of state at the age of 26, and had no options about the job?, Her Majesty always put her duty first, and we should be proud of her commitment and contribution in her 70 years of service to our country Julie Lowe


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## treeturner123 (9 Sep 2022)

What is so remarkable is that, to almost the whole world, she was The Queen. She represented our country everywhere she went and every one she met seems to have such respect for her. This did not happen over night and we should not expect Charles III to replace her in everyone's hearts straight away. As long as he now puts duty before everything else, he should get the hang of the job before too long!

Phil


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## Spectric (9 Sep 2022)

gasman said:


> Whatever the subject there are always people who turn it into a slanging match.


Unless you live under a dictator then in a democratic country then you will get opinions and views from 360° , the days when a monarch could have your head for no reason are long gone and these days not everyone will be a royalist. I personally think that rather than it being a sad occasion we should be happy that she has had a long life and died peacefully, sad is when a kid gets killed in their own home or an invalid murdered in there mobility scooter.


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## Phil Pascoe (9 Sep 2022)

gasman said:


> ...so now you're arguing with me when I have expressed an opinion. Thats hysterical. Is this a 5 minute argument or the full half hour?


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## danst96 (9 Sep 2022)

MurphyBrown said:


> This is not the place to express your religious ideals.


Says who? You? Cool.


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## powertools (9 Sep 2022)

What the hell is it with some of you blokes.
A woman who has done nothing against any of you and has given her whole life to an effort to only do the best for this country and many other countries has passed away.


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## Keith Cocker (9 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You'll need to shift this to controversial topics before I give my opinion on the monarchy. Sorry.


No one asked for it as far as I can see. This was about the passing of a lady who did a very good job for her country not about constitutional jurisprudence. Are all your post negative? Seems so.


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## ian33a (10 Sep 2022)

The death of our Queen is a sad occasion. For me, she did so much for our country, for the commonwealth and for the world at large. 

While we all deal with grief in different ways, when my dad died back in July (at 91) we saw his passing as an opportunity to celebrate his great life and to think about what he achieved, what he meant to us and not just his death.

In so many ways, I see the passing of our Queen in a similar way. That's just how I see it.


On the day that our Queen died, there was other news occurring, but I found that the BBC tried to find ten million ways to say the same thing over and over (often saying it more and more slowly to pad out time) while totally disregarding everything else. In fact, as the days pass, it still seems to be that way, albeit, at a faster pace. 

In the coming times most of us will look back at the events which happened, we will think of her, we will remember where we were when we learned of her death but, at the moment, I feel like there is a real media imbalance. I don't need this much information thrown at me in order to form memories and there are only a few ways to basically say the same thing.


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## Scruples (10 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> Why? Surely it is healthy and stimulating to have a range of opinions. We are not clones. Haven't really seen much slanging, just a bit of censorious finger wagging


You missed out the word 'mindless'.


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## Spectric (10 Sep 2022)

I thought the monarch is a figure head, someone who represents the country but has no powers to do or change anything. It is a set of procedures which are followed for the sake of tradition, they go through the motions which don't really change anything. When did a monarch last reject a PM from forming a government, they go through the motions but the outcome is already known.


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## fixit45 (10 Sep 2022)

gasman said:


> Sometimes it makes me sad logging into this forum. Whatever the subject there are always people who turn it into a slanging match. The whole world has become more polarised. It is sad I th





Scruples said:


> You missed out the word 'mindless'.


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## Thingybob (10 Sep 2022)

ian33a said:


> The death of our Queen is a sad occasion. For me, she did so much for our country, for the commonwealth and for the world at large.
> 
> While we all deal with grief in different ways, when my dad died back in July (at 91) we saw his passing as an opportunity to celebrate his great life and to think about what he achieved, what he meant to us and not just his death.
> 
> ...


As one minister once said today would be a good day to release bad financial news


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## fixit45 (10 Sep 2022)

For all those people who hate the monarchy and feel the need to express those feelings let me ask you. why is it so many people from so many countries
want to live here? If you dislike it so much then emigrate to somewhere like Russia and if you do not like that then make your feelings felt there. You would have second thoughts!!!!


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## fixit45 (10 Sep 2022)

After some deep thought I have decided to resign from this forum because I do not want to be seen associating with the small minority of persons who elude to their feelings and then deny that the ever said same things.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2022)

Rafzetter - Any backtracking I might try and do? Where?
1/ the thread title did not mention condolences, and 2/ I did not mention the queen.
You have the "moral" right to comment but someone else hasn't?
You are welcome to your opinions, I'm not stopping you so get off your high horse.


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## Spectric (10 Sep 2022)

fixit45 said:


> why is it so many people from so many countries
> want to live here?


It has nothing to do with the monarchy, what other country can you go to and get free board and lodgings, not only that you get 50% of the journey done by our coast guard or navy ? It is because we are known as being gullable and a soft touch, the trafficking gangs just think we are all mugs. Then when you do live here you are given the choice to work or sponge of the people who do work.


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## artie (10 Sep 2022)

fixit45 said:


> If you dislike it so much then emigrate to somewhere like Russia and if you do not like that then make your feelings felt there. You would have second thoughts!!!!


I live here like many others, by right of birth and remain by choice, A lot of people live here and more would like to live her because "we" have the right to express an opinion.
As someone said, "I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to express it.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2022)

Attributed to the great Voltaire.


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## Chris152 (10 Sep 2022)

A truly bizarre thread, people attacking someone for writing that their opinion would prove controversial and therefore not expressing their opinion. So at odds with the democratic right to reasonable, free speech it's astonishing.


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## Gandalfs Staff (10 Sep 2022)

Chris152 said:


> A truly bizarre thread, people attacking someone for writing that their opinion would prove controversial and therefore not expressing their opinion. So at odds with the democratic right to reasonable, free speech it's astonishing.


Not really mate. There is a time and a place.....

He obviously thought his opinion was that important he needed to share it with the world, but tried to be clever and couch his words so as to give his opinion without 'giving his opinion'. He is perfectly entitled to his opinion and in fact at liberty to have commented as he did on the forum but for many decent people, there is a time and place - it was just unnecessary.


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## Phil Pascoe (10 Sep 2022)

I didn't try to be clever, I merely stated a fact.


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## Glitch (10 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I didn't try to be clever, I merely stated a fact.


Start your own thread for republicans where you can freely express your thoughts about the monarchy.

The content of the original post sets the tone, not the name of the thread. 
You're clearly intelligent enough to know that but not clever enough to know when to keep quiet when a large number of people would like to express their feeling of grief, sadness or support for the royal family at the time of their loss.

Do you attend funerals and slag off the deceased? Or tell you friends how ugly their kids are? 
No. You wouldn't dare do that face to face. So maybe just  on this thread and start your own.


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## thetyreman (10 Sep 2022)

rafezetter time to get off the crack cocaine  phil did nothing wrong.


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## Jameshow (10 Sep 2022)

Let's start a sharpening thread....!


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## tibi (10 Sep 2022)

Do you sharpen a pencil free hand or with a jig?


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## Spectric (10 Sep 2022)

I think a lot of people get sad at times like this because it just highlights mortality, we have a finite lifespan and as humans we are dying from the day we are born, it is just not a linear process. What should be taken from events like this is to make the most of our time and not waste it, don't waste time chasing money once you have enough and more importantly is to respect that everyone has the right to life.


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## Scruples (11 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> I live here like many others, by right of birth and remain by choice, A lot of people live here and more would like to live her because "we" have the right to express an opinion.
> As someone said, "I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to express it.


And somebody else once said, 'Everyone's entitled to their own stupid opinion.'


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## cmoops2 (11 Sep 2022)

Isn't this so quintessentially British !


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## Wildman (11 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You'll need to shift this to controversial topics before I give my opinion on the monarchy. Sorry.


the monarchy has nothing to do with it, she was a public servent her whole life, show some respect.


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## houtslager (11 Sep 2022)

As one of many people that took the Queen's shilling, and the oath to serve her ,her government and her heirs for as long as I was in the army. 
Yesterday,as the news broke over her death, tears came and loads of memories of my time serving in the army both good and bad, she served her country, the commonwealth and the world in ways that no one else could. So rest easy your Maj, you've done your service and now go join Phil the Greek upstairs.

RIP Queen Elizabeth of Happy memories.


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## PhilipL (11 Sep 2022)

Wildman said:


> the monarchy has nothing to do with it, she was a public servent her whole life, show some respect.


What do you mean the monarchy has nothing to do with it? She was the monarch. Also, a monarch who was very unhappy about paying tax. Not much public service in that attitude, perhaps?

I notice that William now becomes a billionaire on receipt of his father's Cornish holdings (Duchy of Cornwall estate worth £1bn passes to Prince William). And no tax paid on that transfer either.

Can I get some of that public service?


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## Spectric (11 Sep 2022)

The monarchy must be the most successful theatrical company there has ever been, they have no authority or power but the ability to make a lot of money from various titles. It would be much better if a monarch had some power, make anyone serving in any public office accountable to the monarch rather than the monarch just being a puppet to comply with tradition, If they are the head of state then make them more than expensive figureheads. At least people are thinking that Charles will shake up the house hold and streamline it.


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## Terry - Somerset (11 Sep 2022)

If you want to believe the monarchy are a self-interested out of touch family seeking to benefit from their privileged position and legal status there may be little that can be said to dissuade you.

It is worth noting Prince Charles (now king) voluntarily pays tax on the money taken from the Duchy.

More objectively - irrespective of whether the monarchy is politically or socially desirable, if arguments are reduced to a simple financial and tax issue, there are other considerations:

the extent to which the Monarchy funds the preservation of national assets which would otherwise not be commercially justifiable, and may anyway require public funding
the positive impact on the economy of tourism and supporting the UK reputation benefitting international influence and business development
Paying inheritance tax on Williams enhanced estate - could the properties be sold off, if so to who, would they be maintained in future for the benefit of the public, does William who anyway will lead a privileged life benefit from the his "ownership". 

I am not convinced there is any merit, save the superficial perceptions. A common view often used by the aristocracy to justify their wealth - we are merely holding it in trust for future generations. I suspect this is a reasonable proposition in this case.

Whilst I am personally somewhat neutral about the monarchy as an institution, I would support the status quo.


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## ian33a (11 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> If you want to believe the monarchy are a self-interested out of touch family seeking to benefit from their privileged position and legal status there may be little that can be said to dissuade you.
> 
> It is worth noting Prince Charles (now king) voluntarily pays tax on the money taken from the Duchy.
> 
> ...



It's a feeling that I have always had about them:

While it could be argued that they do very nicely from their position, how many of us, including me, could do the job as well or would even want it? I certainly couldn't and wouldn't. That same argument, I also apply, to CEO's of large corporations.

What the monarchy bring in financial terms to the country far out weighs what it costs the country to "maintain" them. So, it's a massive financial gain for the country while a few people get to rock around in Bentleys and Audis.

And, nobody gives a monkeys (or very few do) about how The National Trust and English Heritage keeping our old buildings going in return for an admission or a subscription fee. Yes, the employees don't live inside the musty and decaying structures and the royals do, but all of these organisations are custodians of these structures for future generations, residents or not .... I feel the same about our house most of the time too!


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## Glitch (11 Sep 2022)

Along with so many other people (but clearly not everyone) I found myself more affected by her death than I expected.

It's the end of an era that has seen huge change and progress, but she has remained constant.
15 Prime Ministers, 14 U.S. Presidents, countless other leaders have come and gone. One of the world's top diplomats.

She has devoted her whole life to public service. She worked until her death at 96 years old!

A bird in a gilded cage, she missed out on a normal life. None of the hedonistic behaviour of her sister and her middle son. Not able to really mix with people in the outside world. Total dedication as she promised from the age of 21.

How many other world leaders or public servants have lived up to their promises for so many decades?


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## PhilipL (11 Sep 2022)

Glitch said:


> Along with so many other people (but clearly not everyone) I found myself more affected by her death than I expected.
> 
> It's the end of an era that has seen huge change and progress, but she has remained constant.
> 15 Prime Ministers, 14 U.S. Presidents, countless other leaders have come and gone. One of the world's top diplomats.
> ...



Ha. She had her dogs and horses and lived a very good life it seems to me. Not much interest in culture, it also appears.

She saw the UK unravel with huge disparities in wealth. Forced (or as near as counts) to pay tax while we were on our way to zero contracts and food banks.

The cortege passed my flat this afternoon. At huge cost, I would imagine. Who pays?


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## Cozzer (11 Sep 2022)

Thingybob said:


> As one minister once said today would be a good day to release bad financial news



Well, not financial bad news in the "normal" scheme of things, but we are literally 21 years on from the twin towers horror.
Hard to believe that two decades have passed.


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## Kittyhawk (11 Sep 2022)

PhilipL said:


> Ha. She had her dogs and horses and lived a very good life it seems to me.


Really?
Let me tell you about mine.
Left school, became an apprenticed wooden boatbuilder. After a couple of years decided sailing was more fun so went to sea. Eventually became the man in charge and hated being master - the chief mate runs the ship, great fun, the captain is just a bridge ornament, no fun in that so came ashore and worked for a shipping company in a job with a fancy title but which my wife changed to Unstuffer - I travelled the world to ports where my company's ships were stuffed up and I unstuffed them. Got a lot of enjoyment in that work. Tired of the job at 60 and retired, tired of retirement at 61 and retrained as an Ambo, loved being able to use my new skills to help others, gave that up at 74 and now I waste my time building little wooden aeroplanes because I like to.
From this you can conclude that I have greatly enjoyed my life, mainly I expect because I had the freedom to do as I pleased as does most everybody else.
Compare this to the late Queen. 
Her entire life laid out at birth, contingency plans in place in case of unforseen events, surrounded by minders, advisors, approved friends, not to mention the constant attention from the press, not even being able to plonk a hat on her head without some journo writing an opinion piece about it...there is no amount of dogs or horses or money that is going to compensate for this lack of freedom and personal choice and people who think there is are dreaming. I couldn't do or stand the job for one day let alone decades and neither could most no matter what the perks are.
I think the monarchy is a looney organisation but I admire the late incumbent for the job of work she did with it and is not deserving of the ill will directed at her for doing the best she could with the rather awful employment she was given to do.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2022)

ian33a said:


> ... the employees don't live inside the musty and decaying structures and the royals do ...


It must be hell for them.


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2022)

Kittyhawk said:


> and retrained as an Ambo ...


Sorry, we're not Kiwis - what is an ambo?


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## Kittyhawk (12 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Sorry, we're not Kiwis - what is an ambo?


Ambulance officer, paramedic. I should have realised - Ambo is probably a term only known wthin the trade.


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## Keith Cocker (12 Sep 2022)

Kittyhawk said:


> Ambulance officer, paramedic. I should have realised - Ambo is probably a term only known wthin the trade.


I guessed as much  I’m sure most of us would have worked it out


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## LittleEars (12 Sep 2022)

__





It’s wall to wall Queen Queen Queen everywhere! | Queen Elizabeth II | The Guardian


Anyone who’s fed up with these hereditary freeloaders can’t get a word in! Shush it’s too soon. People are grieving




amp.theguardian.com


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## PhilipL (12 Sep 2022)

LittleEars said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hasn't stopped someone doing the, "Look at me, Look at me, I'm King, I'm King" tour this week. And his mother not yet buried.


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## Daniel2 (12 Sep 2022)

The basic lack of respect and common courtesy to be found on this thread
is very sad indeed. I would have expected more, considering this forum's
demographic.
Really very disappointing behaviour.


----------



## Spectric (12 Sep 2022)

Looks like the monarchy is becoming the new sharpening topic, lets just accept we are all different and with different views and that some people are for and others are not in favour of the monarchy. If Charles reshapes the organisation and gives it a facelift then maybe it might be more palatable to more people and not so controversial, also what is the alternative? If you think of what has happened in politics we have wished for no more Boris but look at what we now have, I bet many would have different views had they known we would have ended up with that smirking nasty piece of work as PM and the same could be the case if we change the monarchy, out of the pan and into the fire. So what part of the monarchy is most disliked, bearing in mind that they have no input into the running of the country and therefore any impact on our own lives what is it that gets people so wound up? If it is financial then maybe immigration should be targeted first because that is just pure expense on tax payers with zero returns.


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## Blackswanwood (12 Sep 2022)

Shame this thread has been hijacked by some and moved away from what the OP clearly intended.

If the questions posed by @Spectric are where it's headed I'd humbly suggest it should head off into the dark web portion of the forum as I see those as political and contentious matters.


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## Jameshow (12 Sep 2022)

Agreed best to keep this thread on condolences and the events of the funeral...


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## Spectric (12 Sep 2022)

What is contentious about a discussion regarding the monarchy, we are not planing on treason or toppling the king just what people think and people are allowed to have their views on any subject even if they are 180° from our own. To have everyone facing the same direction would mean we are ruled by a different political system.


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## Blackswanwood (12 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> What is contentious about a discussion regarding the monarchy, we are not planing on treason or toppling the king just what people think and people are allowed to have their views on any subject even if they are 180° from our own. To have everyone facing the same direction would mean we are ruled by a different political system.


Well for starters the fact that you've sought to bring immigration and your view of the current PM into it?


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## Spectric (12 Sep 2022)

What that is saying is nothing more than don't change something unless you know what is replacing it, ie better the devil you know than one you don't.


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## Jonn Scott (12 Sep 2022)

Knew it would happen one day but it still hit my eyes harder than they could cope, I'm not even British. If the new king does only 1/10th what his mother did and 1% of the rest of us have done he will be brilliant without a doubt.


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2022)

2 leaders imposed on us undemocratically, in the same week!
At least Truss had a few thousand geriatric tories voting for her.
Not sure why we have Charley at all. Monarchy is said to be a tourist attraction but he isn't that attractive IMHO.
Is it a GB takeover by a small faction of geriatrics? 
I'm one myself but they've obviously left me off their mailing list.
Doesn't bode well.


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## Droogs (12 Sep 2022)

MurphyBrown said:


> This is not the place to express your religious ideals.


Is it the fact that it is not a christian expression, that you target me specifically? After all, all those who express she RIP etc are expressing a specifically christian religious belief and saying, why are you not trying to bring them to task? Perchance you are just a hypocrite.


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## Noel (12 Sep 2022)

Folk, calm down, stick to the topic (within reason) and carry on.


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## PhilipL (12 Sep 2022)

Charles and Camilla just went past me in Royal Car. He was no more than 6 feet away. Looked as happy as Larry, smiling and waving. Not much sadness in view.


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## AJB Temple (12 Sep 2022)

Well, If you had been waiting since you were 21 for a promotion, and finally that day arrives over half a century later, you would be quite cheerful too! He gets his name in the history books and benefits from a short surge in positive public opinion. He can also legitimately boss his younger brother Andy about now.


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## AJB Temple (12 Sep 2022)

For those who wish the thread would stay on the track they prefer, it might be worth what the original poster (an administrator in the US who seeks to promote forum traffic - just saying that as an aside) said this:

_"I wish all her family and the nation much sympathy and may the change over be smooth." _

References to a "change over"_ could_ be construed as inviting discussion about that. It is unreasonable, surely, to assume that everyone thinks it is acceptable to have no democratic process whatsoever for this change. Not everyone wishes to regard an unelected person to be their "liege lord". This is a feudal concept that assumes power over "subjects" and people who believe in a democratic process may not wish to be a subject of anyone. 

Discussion of that is not in any sense disrespectful to a dead queen.


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## Noel (12 Sep 2022)

A lot on SM asking if stamps are still able to be used and, worse, are notes still legal tender...............


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## Phil Pascoe (12 Sep 2022)

We were still using Victorian, Edwardian and Georgian coins in the '60s.


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2022)

On a positive note - it seems King Charles is not actually spaniel, but he is a committed environmentalist, which contrasts with "his" government which has a majority of climate change deniers. 
He's unusual amongst mega rich land owners as counter measures inevitably will involve high taxation. I expect they'll make him change his mind and treat him more like a spaniel.


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## D_W (12 Sep 2022)

PhilipL said:


> Charles and Camilla just went past me in Royal Car. He was no more than 6 feet away. Looked as happy as Larry, smiling and waving. Not much sadness in view.



someone must've cleared the dash off or maybe the seats!! I hear he gets unhappy if people leave his messes in place.

_(actually, I have no issue with that - if the guy is supposed to be king, why would people want him screwing around cleaning his desk? if I were super loaded and making decisions or needing to be fresh of mind, I'd pay someone else to do all of that stuff, too)_


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## Tris (12 Sep 2022)

Let's hope he takes after his father for saying what he thinks


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## alz (12 Sep 2022)

As the former Aberdeenshire reporter with the local daily newspaper. I often attended royal events across the area from the days of the Royal Yacht and the Royal Train arriving in Aberdeen to events at Balmoral.
One Balmoral day a photographer and I were at the private entrance to the castle. I was chatting to the duty police officer and the photographer had wandered off as we had been there some time reporting family coming and goings. Suddenly the Queen appeared walking just a few yards away walking her labradors and wearing the most shabby well-worn long coat, large muddy wellies and a headscarf.
The photographer appeared and said - "What a photo!" - but then added -"My God, I've locked the camera in the car boot!" By the time he came back the Queen had waved and disappeared towards the castle, and the policeman and I were having a good laugh. We both just wanted her to enjoy her walk in peace.


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## Spectric (12 Sep 2022)

Why should the monarch not be allowed to have opinions, political or otherwise. If he dislikes what his parliament is doing to his people then he should have the right to speak out, the same with the enviroment because he has grand kids and must worry about the future they will have to live in.


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## D_W (12 Sep 2022)

Tris said:


> Let's hope he takes after his father for saying what he thinks



Was that why they stuffed Philip into the background? For speaking up?


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## Jacob (12 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Why should the monarch not be allowed to have opinions, political or otherwise. If he dislikes what his parliament is doing to his people then he should have the right to speak out, the same with the enviroment because he has grand kids and must worry about the future they will have to live in.


I agree but it would be the end of the monarchy. One side or the other would want KC Spaniel III out and eventually that'd be the end.
They can only hang on to power by being utterly neutral and pretending to have a semi mystical function over and above the everyday.


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## D_W (12 Sep 2022)

in americanized terms, you risk having too many chiefs when notable government figures start voicing their opinions. 

Eventually the king would make an enemy of both political factions that have actual authority and he'd have to resort to running a podcast to make money.


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## Terry - Somerset (12 Sep 2022)

The monarchy is a brand which for most embodies dignity, honesty, decency, concern for community and individuals within it. The Queen did an excellent job in promoting and reinforcing the brand over 70 years. It is the main reason why UK PLC punches above its weight in world affairs.

One of the strategies in maintaining the brand has been to strive for privacy, often against a media desire to expose. The reality is they are a figurehead - they have only a ceremonial impact on the parliamentary process.

We knew little about what she thought, what made her happy or sad, what opinion she held on world affairs (climate change, Donald Trump, China, Brexit, immigration etc). KCIII recognises his own views on climate, the benefits of talking to plants etc will have to be moderated.

The monarchy benefits the UK in extending global influence, encouraging tourism, supporting business. That one may object to the monarchy on the basis of some sort of social "principle" is a failure to objectively and successfully challenge the positives.


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## PhilipL (12 Sep 2022)

This is certainly good for tourism in Edinburgh. Just taken a walk down the High Street and loads of camera crews. Mainly French and German tourists at the best vantage spots. Goodly few English and Aussie accents. Spoke to a PC who told me she was drafted over from Cumnock in Ayrshire and just told to stand there. She had no idea what was happening. Don't believe the claim that 20,000 are queuing to get into St Giles.


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## Spectric (12 Sep 2022)

PhilipL said:


> This is certainly good for tourism in Edinburgh


and all the uk florist, imagine if instead people donated to a charity in her memory rather than contributing to a huge pile of compost that needs to be cleaned up later she would have left another legacy.


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## AJB Temple (12 Sep 2022)

It is untrue that the Monarchy has no effect on legislation. The Queen and PC as was, intervened with their veto in relation to many tax and disclosure issues that directly benefited them, as was quite widely reported recently. 

The argument that the royals bring in a lot of tourist revenue cannot be proven as we don't know what would have happened were all of the royal palaces and grand houses opened properly for tourism. The army could still parade around for show, just focus it on Westminster instead.


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## AJB Temple (12 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> and all the uk florist, imagine if instead people donated to a charity in her memory rather than contributing to a huge pile of compost that needs to be cleaned up later she would have left another legacy.


Indeed. The Dutch have benefited hugely from this unexpected windfall.


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## Noel (12 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> The monarchy is a brand which for most embodies dignity, honesty, decency, concern for community and individuals within it. The Queen did an excellent job in promoting and reinforcing the brand over 70 years. It is the main reason why UK PLC punches above its weight in world affairs.
> 
> One of the strategies in maintaining the brand has been to strive for privacy, often against a media desire to expose. The reality is they are a figurehead - they have only a ceremonial impact on the parliamentary process.
> 
> ...



She made her opinion quite clear on two of those things: Brexit and Trump.

As for the benefits of royalty you list, I can't see much change if the UK was a republic.


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## Dovetail (13 Sep 2022)

Well, this is a quite interesting thread. Not at all what I expected. And posted in this topic due to it's the general topic forum. And this is not woodworking.

I still wish all of the effected well at her passing. And I still wish King Charles III well, as it is not easy to loose your Mom and have to uphold all the traditions I am seeing. 

To those that don't like her, it, him, etc. Best wishes to you also.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

Dovetail said:


> ....
> 
> To those that don't like her, it, him, etc. Best wishes to you also.


Well thanks for that! 
It's not about liking them personally, it's the institution of the monarchy which causes alarm.


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## Adam W. (13 Sep 2022)

It's a good excuse for a bit of cosplay.


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## Keith Cocker (13 Sep 2022)

PhilipL said:


> Hasn't stopped someone doing the, "Look at me, Look at me, I'm King, I'm King" tour this week. And his mother not yet buried.


And if he hadn’t then everyone would have been moaning about him “hiding away at Windsor” like they did when his mother stayed at Balmoral to look after her grieving grandchildren rather than feeding the national schmaltzfest


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## BucksDad (13 Sep 2022)

It's a shame the moderators aren't a bit more active on this forum. They could have stepped in and asked for this thread to be condolences only and anyone could have started a new thread to discuss their grumbles / merits of the monarchy. Other forums I participate in the moderators are a lot more active


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> It's a good excuse for a bit of cosplay.


As I said it is all theatrical.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> It is untrue that the Monarchy has no effect on legislation. The Queen and PC as was, intervened with their veto in relation to many tax and disclosure issues that directly benefited them, as was quite widely reported recently.
> 
> The argument that the royals bring in a lot of tourist revenue cannot be proven as we don't know what would have happened were all of the royal palaces and grand houses opened properly for tourism. The army could still parade around for show, just focus it on Westminster instead.


Versailles is a bigger tourist attraction and the French had the sense to get rid of their monarchy.

Maybe in the spirit of honesty and modernity Charles will end the Monarchy's exemption from the F.O.I. act? I won't be holding my breath, though.


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## Argus (13 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Versailles is a bigger tourist attraction and the French had the sense to get rid of their monarchy.
> 
> Maybe in the spirit of honesty and modernity Charles will end the Monarchy's exemption from the F.O.I. act? I won't be holding my breath, though.



When it comes to adjusting the monarchy, we set a trend and beat the French to it by about 130 years or so......we installed a proto-Putin for 10 years, as did the French in the 1790s, though neither lasted.

History tells us nothing we don't want to hear.


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## whereistheceilidh (13 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> She made her opinion quite clear on two of those things: Brexit and Trump.
> 
> As for the benefits of royalty you list, I can't see much change if the UK was a republic.


I am not an ardent royalty fan but I think you are wrong Noel. The idea of, as a republic, a president Thatcher, Blair, Jonstone or Truss and the amount of fuss & expense that would entail does not persuade me to remove royalty. It is the position they deny that I believe is crucial, & I suspect a president ould not come any cheaper.


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## deema (13 Sep 2022)

QE2 represented a time when most people understood and respected Gentlemanly behaviour. A time which has probably now passed along with her.
I’m a great supporter of freedom of speech and expression. The art of knowing when and how to make a point is what brings about great change or maintains the status quo. It takes a lifetime to gain a reputation and a second to loose it.


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## Noel (13 Sep 2022)

whereistheceilidh said:


> I am not an ardent royalty fan but I think you are wrong Noel. The idea of, as a republic, a president Thatcher, Blair, Jonstone or Truss and the amount of fuss & expense that would entail does not persuade me to remove royalty. It is the position they deny that I believe is crucial, & I suspect a president ould not come any cheaper.



You're thinking more of an American political presidential system than the European type where there is a PM and a president. France has Macron and Borne, Austria has Nehammer and Van der Bellen, Ireland has Martin/Varadkar and Michael D Higgins. 
I haven't looked up costs for others but I do recall reading that Higgins costs Ireland less than 5m Euro per year. Nice likeable little man he is too.


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## Terry - Somerset (13 Sep 2022)

Definition of a Republic:

*a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.*

Republics, with elected heads of state, have produced (amongst others) Trump, Berlusiconi, Mugabi, Hitler, Bolsonaro.

This excludes heads of state initially assuming power by corrupt or violent means. Those initially elected often maintain position through corrupt and violent methods.

The ability of the general public to elect honest, competent and worthy leaders is questionable, even in a "proper" democracy. The ambition of those wanting election fills campaigns with half-truths and undeliverable promises which the electorate unthinkingly embrace. 

A hereditary largely ceremonial head of state which has little or no power (like ours) may have much to commend it. Similarly a democratically elected House of Lords (whose remit needs reforming) risks simply mirroring a somewhat dysfunctional House of Commons.

Be careful what you wish for!!


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## AJB Temple (13 Sep 2022)

There is definite merit in what you say Terry. History suggests Kings and Queens have abused power too. I'm not to fussed about whether we have a monarchy or not really, but I do think it should be greatly toned down and made far less ostentatious. 

However you look at it, it makes no logical sense for a man or woman born from womb x to be automatically more privileged than someone from womb y. There is no great merit to the system and through pure accident of birth we could end up with some rather unintelligent people being bowed and scraped to. 

In practice I suspect Charles may have had a more useful voice as PoW than he will have as monarch. He is by many reports a petulant and entitled man, but he has also expressed views on the environment, food production, farming generally and even architecture that have merit. In many ways he has led debate on some of these issues, whereas his mother was mainly known for her interest in horses and dogs, and for presiding over a protracted period when Britain has declined sharply in international power and status. She may have "ruled" for a long time, but it is difficult for me anyway to think of much that she delivered that benefited the nation or her (ridiculous word) "subjects". Perhaps that is the point - just a totemic figure representing history and past greatness.


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> However you look at it, it makes no logical sense for a man or woman born from womb x to be automatically more privileged than someone from womb y.


Can you really believe that the royal line is actually unbroken, an awful lot of them were far from being angels and I bet many a dabble on the side resulted in a kid from the lower ranks.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Definition of a Republic:
> 
> *a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.*
> 
> Republics, with elected heads of state, have produced (amongst others) Trump, Berlusiconi, Mugabi, Hitler, Bolsonaro.


Our monarchy has produced Johnson, Truss, Thatcher, amongst many other disasters.


Terry - Somerset said:


> Be careful what you wish for!!


Exactly.
But what the monarchy does more than anything else is to establish as a part of government, perpetuate, represent, the land owning oligarchy and organised wealth, which effectively rules us and controls our lives - not to mention their history of colonialism, exploitation, slavery, the wars fought on their behalf to protect their assets, and so on.
How do you sharpen a guillotine? 
PS "The divine right of kings" still with us as the divine right of landowners - with all that fancy dress, parades, rituals, as a distraction from the real issues.


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## Marc Shaw (13 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Our monarchy has produced Johnson, Truss, Thatcher, amongst many other disasters.
> 
> How do you sharpen a guillotine?


With a nice rough toothy edge


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2022)

@Jacob that is a line up fit for the rogues gallery, but I still say a clown was at least funny compared to the others, Truss so worships the thatcher years and still praises the clown but unless you are a BIG earner and have money then you will be paying dearly, all her ideas benefit the higher earners like NI and corporation tax. I think we should look back and see how legitimate the monarchs land ownership really is, I think a lot was illegally seized in the past from people just because they were nolonger in favour.


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## AJB Temple (13 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Can you really believe that the royal line is actually unbroken, an awful lot of them were far from being angels and I bet many a dabble on the side resulted in a kid from the lower ranks.


I never said it was unbroken. We do not need to go further back than the present king and his first wife to discover serial adultery. It is one of the reasons why it is logically difficult to accept moralistic viewpoints from leaders who are happy to set aside their own solemn vows when it suits them.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

it's stuff like this that gets me -
*Immunity from Planning Law*

The Duchy of Cornwall is to all practical intents and purposes immune from any planning control whatsoever. This power is relatively new, granted partly in 1990, partly in 2008, and partly in 2011. 

The two main acts governing planning control are the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 and the Planning Act 2008. Some breaches of planning law are criminal offences, and the Acts grant powers to the planning authorities to enforce planning decisions. Unless, that is, the offender is the Duchy of Cornwall, (or Lancaster, and the Crown Lands)


s.296A(1) of the 1990 Act prevents the Duke from ever committing a planning related offence under that Act.
S.296A(5) makes it impossible for the Duke to ever be sued for planning reasons under the Act, or for any entry to Duchy lands to ever take place without his permission. The planning authorities are, however, permitted to ask him not to break the law.
ss.135 and 228 of the 2008 Act apply the same principles to that Act. However, unlike the 1990 act, if the Duke breaks the law under the 2008 Act, the planning authorities are not permitted to ask him not to do so unless he agrees to let them ask him! Even if he agrees to let them ask him not to break the law, he still can break the law unless he agrees not to!.
s.117 Localism Act 2011 allows the planning authorities to charge landowners for the costs of planning decisions. S.118 exempts the Duchy of Cornwall (and other Crown Land) from such charges.
These are entirely brand new powers conferred on the Duchy in the last few years by the current and recent governments, with no reference whatsoever to ancient rights or powers. They are not feudal remnants.


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## Terry - Somerset (13 Sep 2022)

Just to demonstrate that the capacity for scandal is completely apolitical - it is mainly a function of who is in power at the time. That Labour feature little in the last 12 years is a testimony to opposition status, not the virtues of socialism.

Scandals

Worth remembering that (for many) Blair was the architect of the (probably) fraudulent weapons of mass destruction ploy, arguably leading to the death of millions in the middle east, and Brown for leading the country into financial meltdown having spent all the money.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Just to demonstrate that the capacity for scandal is completely apolitical - it is mainly a function of who is in power at the time. That Labour feature little in the last 12 years is a testimony to opposition status, not the virtues of socialism.


It's possible to behave scandalously even when in opposition


Terry - Somerset said:


> Scandals
> 
> Worth remembering that (for many) Blair was the architect of the (probably) fraudulent weapons of mass destruction ploy, arguably leading to the death of millions in the middle east,


I agree


Terry - Somerset said:


> and Brown for leading the country into financial meltdown having spent all the money.


Not so - he is widely credited with positive action The weekend Gordon Brown saved the banks from the abyss


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## AJB Temple (13 Sep 2022)

Indeed. It is in many ways naive and ridiculous for the media and public to expect anyone to be perfect at all times. It is part of the human make up that people tell lies (it's just a matter of degree), do self serving things, favour their families and friends, have sexual affairs (and try to hide them), steal (time, stationery, paper clips and much bigger stuff - dishonesty is a matter of degree too). We have far too much prurient interest in peoples private lives, we are quick to seek and allocate blame, and we are too judgemental. But we can't help it. 

A large part of our present population do not believe in the existence of god. This is logically an anti monarchistic position if royalty have some divine right to rule. Large swathes of society claim to believe in a variety of different gods depending on their personal flavour of faith. Charles has now apparently decided to be defender of faiths rather than "the" faith. This is either pragmatism, naivety or a desire to maximise his potential support base and any of these positions can be rationally argued, especially if you believe in one or more supreme beings. 

One of our near neighbours has two small children of about 8 and 6. There was a debate alongside our fish pond a few days go post demise of E II. The children were discussing where the queen was now. The elder child, a girl was of the view that when people die they are just a body in a box and that there is no god or afterlife or anything else. Her brother peddled the school line that QE II had gone to heaven and was now with her husband and god. His sister said there was no proof of any of this and it is all total nonsense. The young man sought guidance from his mother who is a lawyer and tends to favour actual evidence. She adroitly avoided further debate by asking the children how deep they think the pond is. 

I kept right out of it. Probably I will repent on my death bed. Seems to be a low risk strategy at that point.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

Fidei Defensor. Defender of faith, not the faith. No definite article in Latin.


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## Scarlet Lancer (13 Sep 2022)

Daniel2 said:


> The basic lack of respect and common courtesy to be found on this thread
> is very sad indeed. I would have expected more, considering this forum's
> demographic.
> Really very disappointing behaviour.


I fully uphold your comment. How many do not remember when the joined the armed forces, the Police force, Boy Scouts, Guides and countless others who swore their oath of allegiance to the Oueen her heirs and successors without fear or favour. The royal family are a massive part of these United Kingdom’s. They are all covered by the privy purse BUT the amount the Royal family earns for the Nation far out weighs the expenditure. These are people, Families with loved ones and feelings that we all have. Ok they live a very different life stile than most of us. Those of you who have no time for Royalty, fine you have that right in our free Nation but keep your thoughts to your private time and do not use that sort of thoughts, heckling and placards while they mourn their mother, sister, grandparents etc give sympathy. If you have to appeal to your councillor, Members of Parliament that would be the correct way to express your view.

Michael (a Royalis)


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## redefined_cycles (13 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Versailles is a bigger tourist attraction and the French had the sense to get rid of their monarchy.
> 
> Maybe in the spirit of honesty and modernity Charles will end the Monarchy's exemption from the F.O.I. act? I won't be holding my breath, though.


Oh, wow... Didn't know that Phil. Thanks for sharing... Good way to keep the class system alive I guess and keep splashing our taxes on their Bentleys and Rolls.

One thing I was particularly grieved about was (HRH) the Queen helping out the chap that was accused of (I'll not add any descriptor here but you know what I mean) to buy his way out of trouble.

Very sad indeed and for those (sorry, I really can't help saying this) who go on about, well if you don't like it then go back home. I guess I'm one of them that people could potentially point that finger at. I'm of Pakistani origin. My grandad came (was invited) over in the 50s and then my dad came over when he was about 10. 

My dad worked in industry all his life as did my grandad - well, my dad until his knee finally gave in and then the kids had to help support etc as he wasn't eligible for any benefits as such and the pension age kept getting pushed forward.

I've worked ever since I was about 15 or 16 and paid taxes since I was about 19. A brief stint in between when I was out of a job for maybe 8 months - enough to learn my NI off by heart. When Covid hit I shaved off my (muslim) beard as saving life as a muslim is part of what the Quran teaches us. Then to allow my beard (of 20 years) to grow back and the fact that the hospital wasn't providing air powered respirators (to work on ICU) I sold my carbon bike and bought the only respirator on the country at the time. 

3M were at the time with a backlog of about a million units worldwide so couldn't fulfill demand. I therefore paid about £900 for my respirator and finally when Covid calmed down I put in a claim to try and get back my tax paid on it from my yearly expense claim (as a nurse). Conservatives got back to me (though I doubt it would have been different from Labour) saying they wouldn't be allowing any relief on the tax paid for the respirator as the NHS was/should have supplied it at the time.

The wording of the letter was slightly threatening so I just smiled and continued. Slightly sad but that's life for us folk that don't live in 'high castles'...


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

Being well spoken of with respect to NI agreement. Pity Boris came along to undo the good work


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## thetyreman (13 Sep 2022)

the team who write the TV show 'the windsors' are going to be having a great time, hope it gets another series!


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## Jonzjob (13 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> You'll need to shift this to controversial topics before I give my opinion on the monarchy. Sorry.


Pray tell just what is controversial about this post? Unless the controvisity just rest in your mind. 

I would suggest that if you don't want to upset a number of people then just go away from this thread.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

Cold up there on the high ground, is it?


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

Scarlet Lancer said:


> I the amount the Royal family earns for the Nation far out weighs the expenditure.


That is pure speculation.


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## redefined_cycles (13 Sep 2022)

Since this thread has increasingly (which I appreciate was not intended by the original poster) become a bit of a slanging match (mainly at Phil which I find totally incorrect as there was nothing offensive in his supposedly offensive statement). I really think this clip from Novara Media probably belongs here.

Relates to the idiotic coverage by the BBC - 

Once again, no offense to anyone (nor the Royals or anyone here or the lovers or the haters) and hopefully this thread will slowly become more and more civilised


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

redefined_cycles said:


> Since this thread has increasingly (which I appreciate was not intended by the original poster) become a bit of a slanging match (mainly at Phil which I find totally incorrect as there was nothing offensive in his supposedly offensive statement). I really think this clip from Novara Media probably belongs here.
> 
> Relates to the idiotic coverage by the BBC -
> 
> Once again, no offense to anyone (nor the Royals or anyone here or the lovers or the haters) and hopefully this thread will slowly become more and more civilised



Yes spot on! Novara Media are always on the ball.
I did try to send the thread off towards sharpening (guillotines) but there was no interest.


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## selectortone (13 Sep 2022)

BBC commentators wittering on inanely started to get on my nerves almost immediately. They have this ridiculous golden rule about not leaving 'dead air' (no one talking).

It was at its most ridiculous during the procession of the coffin from Balmoral to Edinburgh when the commentators just jabbered on and on mindlessly about nothing at all for hours. I turned the sound down. That whole broadcast could have been hugely more dignified with the drivel replaced with some suitably sombre music and the occasional subtitle.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

I must admit I find Sarkar abhorrent, but she's right there.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I must admit I find Sarkar abhorrent, .......


Yes she does irritate a certain type of elderly white male!  
She's a very competent and intelligent journalist in fact.


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2022)

redefined_cycles said:


> Relates to the idiotic coverage by the BBC


The BBC has been in decline for some time, there news coverage is to bounded and they have way to much coverage of anything involving a ball, being a highly regulated establishment I would think it is in their constitution to go into verbal diarrhoea mode at any major story involving the monarchy. 

I don't think this fiasco will have done them any favours, I know quiet a few who have dropped BBC news for presenters on other channels that are not under some oath of toeing the line and can voice true free speech, in other words say it as it is and not try and wrap it up to dilute it.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> The BBC has been in decline for some time, there news coverage is to bounded and they have way to much coverage of anything involving a ball, being a highly regulated establishment I would think it is in their constitution to go into verbal diarrhoea mode at any major story involving the monarchy.
> 
> I don't think this fiasco will have done them any favours, I know quiet a few who have dropped BBC news for presenters on other channels that are not under some oath of toeing the line and can voice true free speech, in other words say it as it is and not try and wrap it up to dilute it.


We tend to watch Channel 4. The tories want to sell it off as it's obviously a bit too "centrist".


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## deema (13 Sep 2022)

I read with a wry smile the Vive la République, or the highlighting in a post of the great French Revolution that did away with the French Monarchy. Now, why let those tedious facts get in the way of a bit of good old chest beating? Probably because it killed huge numbers lasted a short time before putting into power a complete dictator; Napoleon who went in to kill countless more.
Coming a little further forward in time, we might also like to suggest the over throw of the Monarchy in Russia? Yet another despot placed into power and this time millions killed. Or perhaps China? Again millions killed as a result. Or perhaps Germany, or Austria? Hitler wasn’t such a bad chap was he? Let’s not forget Italy, Mussolini was exemplary……..Now I know, you may say these are a little extreme……let’s try Spain….any better, no, we got Franco before they went back to a monarch again. Gosh, the Spanish are wishing for the Franck era again I’m sure. Let’s not forget Iran, or indeed Iraq which again are later day Monarchy’s deposed of for far better systems, no, perhaps not. I know Afghanistan, oh, disaster there too.

Perhaps we should look at the colonies that shook of the imperial shackles. There is of course the USA, well that ended in civil war, and a now a hugely divided country that seems to elect presidents recently that are very polarising. Shall we say almost works?
India, that too ended really well, not only did the country tear itself in two, with millions being uprouted, it managed to start what was a civil war that killed millions has not ended today, Pakistan that was part of India, and India are still officially at war.

Now some have made the transition without a calamity, Finland is a good Example. However, most have resulted in untold blood shed and a worse situation than before.


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2022)

You cannot make a cake without breaking some eggs deema !


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

deema said:


> I read with a wry smile the Vive la République, or the highlighting in a post of the great French Revolution that did away with the French Monarchy. Now, why let those tedious facts get in the way of a bit of good old chest beating? Probably because it killed huge numbers lasted a short time before putting into power a complete dictator; Napoleon who went in to kill countless more.
> Coming a little further forward in time, we might also like to suggest the over throw of the Monarchy in Russia? Yet another despot placed into power and this time millions killed. Or perhaps China? Again millions killed as a result. Or perhaps Germany, or Austria? Hitler wasn’t such a bad chap was he? Let’s not forget Italy, Mussolini was exemplary……..Now I know, you may say these are a little extreme……let’s try Spain….any better, no, we got Franco before they went back to a monarch again. Gosh, the Spanish are wishing for the Franck era again I’m sure. Let’s not forget Iran, or indeed Iraq which again are later day Monarchy’s deposed of for far better systems, no, perhaps not. I know Afghanistan, oh, disaster there too.
> 
> Perhaps we should look at the colonies that shook of the imperial shackles. There is of course the USA, well that ended in civil war, and a now a hugely divided country that seems to elect presidents recently that are very polarising. Shall we say almost works?
> ...


Makes you wonder why all the colonies and the whole of the British Empire were so anxious to free themselves from British monarchical rule, when they were so obviously peaceful, kindly treated and cared for!   
What remains of the British Commonwealth is also anxious to complete the process.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

I have read scores of elderly people writing over the years from various colonies saying they were more prosperous and peaceful under british rule. Zimbabwe for one is hardly a success. It doesn't make British rule right, of course.


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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I have read scores of elderly people writing over the years from various colonies saying they were more prosperous and peaceful under british rule. Zimbabwe for one is hardly a success. It doesn't make British rule right, of course.


It wasn't a success under British rule either, unless you were a white land owner - who no doubt would remember it fondly. 
Rhodes is remembered as one of the most brutal colonialists.


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## D_W (13 Sep 2022)

selectortone said:


> BBC commentators wittering on inanely started to get on my nerves almost immediately. They have this ridiculous golden rule about not leaving 'dead air' (no one talking).
> 
> It was at its most ridiculous during the procession of the coffin from Balmoral to Edinburgh when the commentators just jabbered on and on mindlessly about nothing at all for hours. I turned the sound down. That whole broadcast could have been hugely more dignified with the drivel replaced with some suitably sombre music and the occasional subtitle.



i think that rule is pretty universal. There's probably folks on here who don't love bill maher or adam carolla but I have seen both of them fall backwards in their chair when there is either dead air or someone is not getting to the point on air despite having their ankles nipped. 

Both things are not that obvious to us as watchers, but patrolled heavily by producers or hosts. 

I'm in agreement with what you're saying "could we have a format change for once and not worry about ratings or having every audience brought on board within 30 seconds of tuning in?"


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## PhilipL (13 Sep 2022)

My father's estate paid inheritance tax. It was a lot less in value than the Queen's estate. Why isn't it being paid in this instance?

Answers on a postcard, please.


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2022)

The monarchy are supposed to be there for the people, so the inheritance tax should be collected and used to offset the national debt to help his so called subjects. 

Just think how many country estates went bust because they had to either remove the roof or pay the inheritance tax, perhaps they may be supposedly politically neutral but adopt the conservative stance of one rule for us and another for the rest of you.


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## deema (13 Sep 2022)

PhilipL said:


> My father's estate paid inheritance tax. It was a lot less in value than the Queen's estate. Why isn't it being paid in this instance?
> 
> Answers on a postcard, please.


The reasons why are both well documented, logical and a consequence of the move of both power and to who taxes are now paid. Google is your friend.


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## Terry - Somerset (13 Sep 2022)

> Makes you wonder why all the colonies and the whole of the British Empire were so anxious to free themselves from British monarchical rule, when they were so obviously peaceful, kindly treated and cared for!
> What remains of the British Commonwealth is also anxious to complete the process.



That all often resent their rulers (elected or not) does not with hindsight make "throwing off the yoke of mis-rule" a success. 

India - partition, war with Pakistan, millions dead
Zimbabwe - transitioned from stable and relatively wealthy to corrupt, violent and impoverished under Mugabe
Nigeria - now benefits from corruption, civil war, extreme poverty
Uganda - a British protectorate which spawned Idi Amin
Palestine - some good outcomes (Israel) and ongoing unresolved conflict
Burma/Myanmar - the latest target (of many minorities) for government - Rohingas
This is but a small quick sample. British colonialism which sought to bring Bristish standards of education, law, societal order, administration, jobs, self-sufficiency etc to a large part of the world could be seen as truly enlightened.

That is was dominated by Victorian (not contemporary) values may today seem uncomfortable,. The suggestion that it was all in pursuit of profit and global reach is not without foundation. China is currently on a similar path following the US and Russia (who failed).

Would all those people (many generations) who suffered and sometimes died as a consequence of independence still endorse the actions of their leaders at the time. I suspect not - although "colonialism" would certainly have evolved with perhaps a far better outcome.


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## redefined_cycles (13 Sep 2022)

Interesting how you cite Palestine as one of the only successes cos of Israel. You do realise that eye witness reports (from both British and non-brits) prove it to be an apartheid state?

Also, regards destabilised countries. You do know that it's the British way. To help destabilise other people countries and cause infighting amongst others whilst they smile on by?


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## deema (13 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> The monarchy are supposed to be there for the people, so the inheritance tax should be collected and used to offset the national debt to help his so called subjects.
> 
> Just think how many country estates went bust because they had to either remove the roof or pay the inheritance tax, perhaps they may be supposedly politically neutral but adopt the conservative stance of one rule for us and another for the rest of you.


How far from the truth tales can wonder, it started in 1694, and has been modified and enhanced ever since. In 1794 a number of taxes were clumped together, as moneys needed to be raised to fund a war against a despot….Napolian! So, taxes were paid to the crown, to defend the people and country. So, basically if you apply taxes the to monarchy your asking them to pay for their own services is a nutshell. We the people transferred the power, the taxes and the responsibility to the elected Government, but the crown is still the leader of all the armed forces. Ie they lead us into battle.
Very simplified.


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## Daniel2 (13 Sep 2022)




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## Jacob (13 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> T...... British colonialism which sought to bring Bristish standards of education, law, societal order, administration, jobs, self-sufficiency etc to a large part of the world could be seen as truly enlightened.
> ....


What amazing nonsense!
British colonialism sought to exploit the rest of the world for whatever it could get and in the process spread death and destruction, with total genocide in some parts.
How could anybody not be aware of this and still nurture a Boys' Own fantasy view of history?
What do you imagine the early explorers were after - spreading civilisation and enlightenment? Quite the opposite they were after wealth; gold, silver, slaves, land and treated native populations brutally.


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## Spectric (13 Sep 2022)

You can talk, I seem to remember from history lessons that the french invented the guilotine to deal with there monarchy in 1790 something. You seem to have done alright without them ever since, apart from us having to rescue you from the Germans later on.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yes she does irritate a certain type of elderly white male!
> She's a very competent and intelligent journalist in fact.


I assume by the unnecessary "white" you imply colour prejudice. You should know better than make unfounded assumptions.


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## PhilipL (13 Sep 2022)

deema said:


> How far from the truth tales can wonder, it started in 1694, and has been modified and enhanced ever since. In 1794 a number of taxes were clumped together, as moneys needed to be raised to fund a war against a despot….Napolian! So, taxes were paid to the crown, to defend the people and country. So, basically if you apply taxes the to monarchy your asking them to pay for their own services is a nutshell. We the people transferred the power, the taxes and the responsibility to the elected Government, but the crown is still the leader of all the armed forces. Ie they lead us into battle.
> Very simplified.


Simplified and total rubbish, I think. Taxation moved on some time ago from being a means of supporting the country's wars. It used to be in part distributive so we didn't have the poverty we now have.


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## deema (13 Sep 2022)

PhilipL said:


> Simplified and total rubbish, I think. Taxation moved on some time ago from being a means of supporting the country's wars. It used to be in part distributive so we didn't have the poverty we now have.


What you think, and what is fact is a gulf. Google to clarify your thoughts.


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## TRITON (13 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> You can talk, I seem to remember from history lessons that the french invented the guillotine to deal with there monarchy in 1790 something. You seem to have done alright without them ever since, apart from us having to rescue you from the Germans later on.


Er.... 
I think you'll find it was the Americans who came to the rescue of the British. and then the French. Britain helped a bit but without American support the Normandy landings on D-Day would not have happened.

Clearly you weren't listening during those lessons.


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## deema (13 Sep 2022)

I love facts, there were 160,000 troops who landed on the beaches on D Day, 73,000 Americans and 83115 British and Canadian.








FACT SHEET: Normandy Landings


The Normandy Landings, codenamed Operation Neptune, supported Operation Overlord and paved the way for the liberation of Europe. The Allies selected Normandy as the landing site for the invas




obamawhitehouse.archives.gov





Three days after Pearl harbour, Germany and Italy declared war on the USA. America didn’t rescue the British, they joined forces against a common enemy, two years after the British had been at war.


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## TRITON (13 Sep 2022)

deema said:


> I love facts, there were 160,000 troops who landed on the beaches on D Day, 73,000 Americans and 83115 British and Canadian.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nonsense. WE WERE ON OUR KNEES, running out of food thanks to German U boats sinking supply ships. It was the beginning of the end and we promised America a lot for them to come into the war.
What do you think the whole 'special relationship' is all about ?.
We will support the US whatever and wherever till the end of time.


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## MARK.B. (14 Sep 2022)

A quick google search shows 
Why Did the USA Enter World War II?​ 

By Staff WriterLast Updated April 06, 2020 



 

 
 
 
 

 r 
 


*The USA entered World War II in response to the Japanese bombing of the American naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.* Prior to the attack, the country had maintained an isolationist policy, although government leaders considered involvement inevitable and had been providing the Allies with arms and other supplies. The US had long-standing friendly relations with Britain and the Japanese assault tipped the country against the Axis powers.

Until 1941, the US kept out of the war. In general, Americans considered it a European affair and preferred to follow the traditional American policy of isolationism. However, the country was sympathetic to the Allied cause. The US had fought against Germany during WWI. Communists, leftists and Jews who heard about the oppression occurring in Germany pressed and lobbied the government to intervene. Many people believed that the totalitarian tendencies of European fascism would eventually threaten the US. In addition, the US shared a common heritage and friendly relations with Britain, whose very existence was threatened by the Germans.
For these reasons, the US sided with the Allies from the beginning and furnished them with much needed war supplies. The Roosevelt administration anticipated involvement and prepared the nation’s arms manufacturing. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, it was the final component necessary to remove any doubt about going to war.


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## Dovetail (14 Sep 2022)

You all can sure twist and turn a gently opened thread into such massive off topics. But since this is off topic, I have not stepped in.
And at least one mod seems to appear with some, and then one is busy elsewhere for a few days. So, you're lucky.


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## Adam W. (14 Sep 2022)

Dovetail said:


> You all can sure twist and turn a gently opened thread into such massive off topics. But since this is off topic, I have not stepped in.
> And at least one mod seems to appear with some, and then one is busy elsewhere for a few days. So, you're lucky.


That must mean it's time for some Kylie time.




There, that's better.


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2022)

Interesting that since I last looked the thread has embraced WWII and Pearl Harbour. 

Can't see what is wrong with Phil suggesting that the freedom of information act should extend to the monarchy. It seems entirely logical that the royal set up, largely public funded and favoured servants of the people, should be subject to public scrutiny. Funding of charles' buffoon brother andrew might be an eye opener. 

It will be interesting to see if charles follows through with his reported desire to slim down the monarchy, get rid of all the grace and favour hangers on, and hand back some of the property excesses.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I....
> 
> It will be interesting to see if charles follows through with his reported desire to slim down the monarchy, get rid of all the grace and favour hangers on, and hand back some of the property excesses.


They won't allow that it sounds a bit too socialistic and would set a very bad example to the lower clarses! The Daily Mail, Express, Times and Telegraph will get Charley into good shape, no worries. He won't know what's hit him.


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2022)

The Guardian is reporting this morning on a super tactful move to make a lot of charles's staff redundant. King Charles’s staff given redundancy notice during church service for Queen


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## Scarlet Lancer (14 Sep 2022)

Keith Cocker said:


> And if he hadn’t then everyone would have been moaning about him “hiding away at Windsor” like they did when his mother stayed at Balmoral to look after her grieving grandchildren rather than feeding the national schmaltzfest


I think you need to study exactly what they do for the Nation by way of world trade and the GDP. i doubt you would be happy for someone to comment the same way about you during your mourning a parent. I have never been happy about Charles and Camilla with their attitude. However I believe that they should be given a chance to prove their selves.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I assume by the unnecessary "white" you imply colour prejudice. You should know better than make unfounded assumptions.


Maybe you should know better than to use racist tropes. Black women journalists and public figures, especially if outspoken and a bit lefty, get astonishing amounts of abuse especially from elderly white males.
Are there any white male journalists who you also find abhorrent?


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## Marc Shaw (14 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Maybe you should know better than to use racist tropes. Black women journalists and public figures, especially if outspoken and a bit lefty, get astonishing amounts of abuse especially from elderly white males.


Very true sadly.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2022)

Scarlet Lancer said:


> I think you need to study exactly what they do for the Nation by way of world trade and the GDP. ...


It's be interesting to have some figures. It does sound like wishful thinking though, on the part of the royalist fraternity.


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## John In Ireland (14 Sep 2022)

Am I on the wrong forum? ... I've not heard wood mentioned for ages????


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

There is another aspect of the monarchy that seems to have not been raised, like any pandemic it had to have started somewhere. If you look at a horse you know it is a horse, if you look at a dog you know it is a dog but the only reason you know the king is the king is because someone has made that decision to call them king, they are in reality just another person who functions like you or I so why. I think it started because in the early days the so called king would make ridiculous claims that he was essentially representing god and that it was god who wants him as king, his people were not that bright and believed him and the whole circus grew from there as a form of getting above the masses for a better life at the expense of others and it just grew arms and legs, no one really ever questioned anything because they valued their head and we now have something that we don't really know what to do with because it has been there for so long.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

John In Ireland said:


> Am I on the wrong forum? ... I've not heard wood mentioned for ages?


The kings used to have peoples heads removed on a wooden block in the tower!


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2022)

I await Charley's espousing the beliefs of the WEF, of which he's a member, and giving away the estates and the money so he can own nothing and be happy.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> The kings used to have peoples heads removed on a wooden block in the tower!


Yer but no but ................ who sharpened the axe and how?


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## Thingybob (14 Sep 2022)

I thought off topic on uk workshops would be UPVC , painting and decorating ,car maintenance,and the price of fish . Boy was i wrong  Off topic emojis


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2022)

There is beginning to be some interesting anti-BBC backlash around the internet now, over their incredibly repetitive and at times inane coverage of the E II death. It seems their mission is to interview anyone who has ever met the queen, or charley. It's quite the most tedious and excessive display I've encountered. I've just had to switch of woman's hour because even that does constant queenie.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

John In Ireland said:


> Am I on the wrong forum? ... I've not heard wood mentioned for ages????


We have all missed a trick, we could have earned ourselves some good cash to help fund our woodworking and offset the increased cost of materials.

Yes it is a woodworking forum so why did we not think about making souvenirs for this occasion, I was thinking of a piece of stone to mimic the floor of westminster with a nice little wooden coffin on some tressles draped in a flag and yours for fifty quid.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> There is beginning to be some interesting anti-BBC backlash around the internet now, over their incredibly repetitive and at times inane coverage of the E II death. It seems their mission is to interview anyone who has ever met the queen, or charley. It's quite the most tedious and excessive display I've encountered. I've just had to switch of woman's hour because even that does constant queenie.


I did hear that the BBC's viewing/listening figures plummeted after Diana's death because of the blanket coverage.


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2022)

The BBC has mentioned wood many, many times. I have been informed by the brutally boring corporation that the E II coffin is made of oak. They did not say whether this is english oak, french oak (a lot is) or special german oak to match the german hearse.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

Hopefully now people will start to question the BBC license fee again and ask what gives them the right to take money from everyone owning a Tv even if they don't watch BBC or only stream. Think of the cost of all that shiete they are spewing across our screens.


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## artie (14 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Hopefully now people will start to question the BBC license fee again and ask what gives them the right to take money from everyone owning a Tv even if they don't watch BBC or only stream.


They don't.


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2022)

Some research suggests that queenie was measured up for her box 30 years ago and it is made of english oak. Some twerp from the funeral directors says it would be too expensive to use english oak today, as if the coffin cost is more than a drop in the ocean for this state affair. It's lead lined as well apparently and has a reinforced lid so that heavy stuff like crowns can be put on it.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> It's lead lined as well apparently and has a reinforced lid so that heavy stuff like crowns can be put on it.


Having a non refrigerated body laying around for such a period of time must cause concerns, it is probably sealed so nothing seeps out when it is being moved around or causes a smell in westminster.


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## Chris152 (14 Sep 2022)

Waiting for the (delayed) 6 O'Clock news on BBC last night, I spent 15 mins watching a large plane taxi on a runway, no meaningful commentary, nothing else happening. Once the news finally came on, yes, the first 2/3 was dedicated to the same subject. Eventually, we got a bit of news about what was happening in the rest of the world. 
I can't help think the unending, largely meaningless and frequently silly coverage tells us something important about our relationship to the monarchy, and that it could well turn many further away from tolerating the institution.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

Chris152 said:


> watching a large plane taxi on a runway


or a convoy driving for miles through scotland, for me I am amazed at some people on Tv that actually believe the monarch rules the country and has done so much for them, they don't actually say what. I can see the concept is quaint and gives people something to cling onto but we do have Charles and at some point this will all be repeated when we get William and she was just like you, me or anyone else in that you eventually die, like it or not.


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## Thingybob (14 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> The BBC has mentioned wood many, many times. I have been informed by the brutally boring corporation that the E II coffin is made of oak. They did not say whether this is english oak, french oak (a lot is) or special german oak to match the german hearse.


American white oak to keep up the special relationship we both have


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

She was probably the first monarch to have a german hearse, before her they might have been British like Bently or rolls which goes to say a lot about our country today.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2022)

Thingybob said:


> American white oak to keep up the special relationship we both have


Could have been oak veneered MDF for all we know.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

I bet the block used for head removal in the tower would have been English oak. 



Jacob said:


> Could have been oak veneered MDF for all we know.


Impossible, we all know what happens to MDF when it gets wet and you don't want her falling out the bottom do we, I am talking of internal seepage from her remains but then the lead is there for that so I wonder how the box was jointed, dowels, domino's or traditional dovetails.


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## rogxwhit (14 Sep 2022)

6" nails ...


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2022)

Dup


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2022)

‘Worthy of the Stasi’: British Cycling in Queen’s funeral U-turn after ridicule


British Cycling has performed a sharp U-turn after its ‘strong recommendation’ that people should not use their bikes at all during the Queen’s funeral was widely mocked.




www.theguardian.com




No cycling? I'll be out there come rain or shine! That's what bank holidays are for - not staying in and crouching in front of the telly!
It's getting a bit OTT all this funeral stuff. Boring me stiff (no pun intended!)
The (non mainstream) media seem to think the BBC has gone completely bonkers.


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## Phil Pascoe (14 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> 6" nails ...


Stainless, I hope.


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Stainless, I hope.


Gold plated!


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

We are in a crisis as a country with high fuel bills, going into a recession and high inflation with a muppet for a PM and we want to shut the country down, that really makes sound financial sense does it not. Are all businesses expected to pay staff for the extra holiday, and like it or not that virus has not gone away either, yet we are packing the crowds in so maybe cycling is a good option to get out into the open away from the masses.


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## Marc Shaw (14 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> We are in a crisis as a country with high fuel bills, going into a recession and high inflation with a muppet for a PM and we want to shut the country down, that really makes sound financial sense does it not. Are all businesses expected to pay staff for the extra holiday, and like it or not that virus has not gone away either, yet we are packing the crowds in so maybe cycling is a good option to get out into the open away from the masses.


Keep the peasantry compliant is far more important than that!


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2022)

_"It is time for her to rest. And more than time for the country to wake up"._









Along with the Queen, Britain is laying to rest a sacred national image that never was | Nesrine Malik


In this new era we will speak of national and royal fallibility, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik




www.theguardian.com


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## AJB Temple (14 Sep 2022)

I watched parts of the procession to take the queen from buckingham palace to where she is lain in state. I have to say we British do this kind of thing incredibly well. The military acquitted themselves perfectly and the coffin bearers were excellent.


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## TRITON (14 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> The kings used to have peoples heads removed on a wooden block in the tower!


I expect it was a subject of much debate on the best way to sharpen the beheading axe.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

TRITON said:


> I expect it was a subject of much debate on the best way to sharpen the beheading axe.



sharpening tools would have been just taken for granted back then, there would have been so many people with the ability and a very important part of living that most would be sharpening tools as kids.


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## rogxwhit (14 Sep 2022)

The best way to sharpen the beheading axe?

They work better if cambered ...


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

Something the french were better at, at least more efficient because they had the guilotine and could do batch beheading whereas we had to rely on a persons stamina and skills.


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## redefined_cycles (14 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> ‘Worthy of the Stasi’: British Cycling in Queen’s funeral U-turn after ridicule
> 
> 
> British Cycling has performed a sharp U-turn after its ‘strong recommendation’ that people should not use their bikes at all during the Queen’s funeral was widely mocked.
> ...


I actually have a 100km mountain bike trail which I hoped to ride. But it has a fair few farm tracks (public bridle way in this case) and though I started planning to ride it on Monday, I'm having slight second thoughts in case I'm met by a 'patriot' whilst on his/her land...

Hope you have a lovely ride Jacob... Mine is called the Northpeaks100 in case you wanted the gpx track for it.


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## Dovetail (14 Sep 2022)

John In Ireland said:


> Am I on the wrong forum? ... I've not heard wood mentioned for ages????


 You landed into the "Twilight Zone" area of the woodworking forum. Soon you'll hear the music.


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## nickds1 (14 Sep 2022)

Day in London paying respects...


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## Terry - Somerset (14 Sep 2022)

FOMO - fear of missing out.

A once in a lifetime opportunity to react to the death of a monarch. Queues around 2.5 miles long for the lying in state experience - to see a box. For the media it is the first chance in 70 years.

A bit like toilet rolls - speculate they will be extinct and the supermarket shelves are cleared. Fuel deliveries delayed - queue for a few hours in case the next petrol tanker is the last.

And failing to participate in the game means your grandchildren will never know the emotional trauma you experienced and can tell them about in decades to come.

We will all remember the days the supermarkets, football, cricket, banks closed as a mark of respect.

This may all sound very anti Liz - quite the reverse - she is to be admired having lived a life embracing the good and is deserving of considerable respect.

But the whole business has become a triumph of cynical emotional rhetoric which has swamped decent and measured celebration of a life well lived.


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## Spectric (14 Sep 2022)

There are ways to remember and celebrate a life with open and honest dialect but there is a line where it becomes toxic and obviously being done for the wrong reasons. If a person is that well known and respected then few words are really needed to get the message across, going into a sales pitch gives the impression you are trying to sell the idea to the masses and drum up support so not a good time for the news channels especially the bbc.


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## Noel (14 Sep 2022)

MournHub?


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## Jacob (14 Sep 2022)

redefined_cycles said:


> I actually have a 100km mountain bike trail which I hoped to ride. But it has a fair few farm tracks (public bridle way in this case) and though I started planning to ride it on Monday, I'm having slight second thoughts in case I'm met by a 'patriot' whilst on his/her land...


They'll all be inside glued to the telly.


redefined_cycles said:


> Hope you have a lovely ride Jacob... Mine is called the Northpeaks100 in case you wanted the gpx track for it.


Sounds good. Actually I've not been on the bike since hip replacement op but Monday should be good for it.


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> What amazing nonsense!
> British colonialism sought to exploit the rest of the world for whatever it could get and in the process spread death and destruction, with total genocide in some parts.
> How could anybody not be aware of this and still nurture a Boys' Own fantasy view of history?
> What do you imagine the early explorers were after - spreading civilisation and enlightenment? Quite the opposite they were after wealth; gold, silver, slaves, land and treated native populations brutally.


A view from down under: 








Don’t ask me to give the Queen a minute’s silence, ask me for the truth about British colonialism | Lidia Thorpe


Truth-telling, truth-listening and treaty are the ways to heal Australia, not a day of mourning for a far-off monarch




www.theguardian.com


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## Spectric (15 Sep 2022)

I wonder if any monarch actually felt any guilt over being the head of a country that committed what was in fact genocide. 

Quote from above talking about Australia

The institutions that British colonisation brought here, from the education that erases us to the prisons that kill us, are designed to destroy the oldest living culture in the world. That’s the legacy of the crown in this country.

The “British empire” declared a war on these shores, against this country’s First Nations peoples. This led to massacres. And you want a minute’s silence from me?

So I would bet that now shes gone Australia may well decide to drop the crown, save charles at his age from long haul travel.


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## Phil Pascoe (15 Sep 2022)

I've never understood why any Country would want a foreign monarch as its head of state. I remember being in a predominantly Maori bar in NZ when the queen was mentioned. How shall I say ...... they were less than impressed.


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## AJB Temple (15 Sep 2022)

There was an interview on Radio 4 this morning, possibly woman's hour. The Australians have made it clear that they are in no rush to consider the matter and it is likely to be years. 

As an aside, there has of late been much more pressure for people alive today to apologise for things that long dead people did years ago, in some cases a couple of hundred years ago. I can think of few things more meaningless than this. It seems largely to be fuelled by the more left leaning media outlets.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Sep 2022)

I do find things like the tipping of Coulsons statue in the harbour rather silly. Surely it is better to use these things as a focal point for discussion. And if you take this approach to its logical conclusion then what next? Many of the great municipal buildings in places like Manchester, Liverpool etc were built with money derived from the cotton trade, dependent on slavery. Should we pull them all down? The V&A, the Albert Hall, and anything else built using wealth obtained as a colonial power, the list goes on and on.


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## StevieB (15 Sep 2022)

Because an apology today can be used as evidence for recompense tomorrow......


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## Fergie 307 (15 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> I wonder if any monarch actually felt any guilt over being the head of a country that committed what was in fact genocide.
> 
> Quote from above talking about Australia
> 
> ...


Whilst I entirely agree, I think it is important to bring some historical context. At the time plonking your flag in the ground and claiming a land for your soveriegn was the norm, as was the brutal treatment of the local population if they werent enthusiatic. This is not to say that such behaviour should not be lamented. However I believe that Australia has had its own, essentially independent, government for some time now, and yet the appalling treatment of the aboriginal population has continued. So not sure current issues can be blamed entirely on the monarchy.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> It's possible to behave scandalously even when in opposition
> 
> I agree
> 
> Not so - he is widely credited with positive action The weekend Gordon Brown saved the banks from the abyss


Of course the alternative take is that Brown removed most of the regulation introduced by Thatcher, and so precipitated the problem by allowing bankers to do as they pleased. So his intervention was in effect to address a problem that he had allowed to occur in the first place.


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## D_W (15 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Of course the alternative take is that Brown removed most of the regulation introduced by Thatcher, and so precipitated the problem by allowing bankers to do as they pleased. So his intervention was in effect to address a problem that he had allowed to occur in the first place.



If he was paralleling things here, we decided that having strict lending standards was discriminatory (if you parse data, it definitely appears to be) and created loans that had little chance of being repaid at the same rates the pricing would've assumed - but removing standards, and removing required data. 

How the result was surprising is beyond me. 

Every time the lending standards are eased, the cost of real estate goes way up because there is a temporary increase in fake money supply and who goes out and overextends themselves and gets stuck again? Here, it's the lower income borrowers or the folks who have trouble keeping their income at the level of their application and have little else. 

Sometimes reality just doesn't work for people when it comes to ideals and then they create a bigger problem than existed before.


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> ...... So not sure current issues can be blamed entirely on the monarchy.


They aren't blamed entirely on the monarchy that would be ludicrous. But they can be blamed on the extended establishment of which she is the head and who instigated these things and carried on defending them to the last.


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## Terry - Somerset (15 Sep 2022)

How far back should nations go to redeem themselves for past actions? There must be a time before which current generations should not be expected to take, or accept, responsibility for the wrongs of much earlier generations. 

The UK has accumulated wealth based upon development of empire through conquest, slavery, and exploitation. Actions which would now be judged unacceptable, but at the time were applauded and rewarded.

The Spanish bought misery, disease, and poverty to much of South and Central America in pursuit of wealth.

Ghenghis Khan created the largest contiguous empire the world had seen through simple brutality.

Europeans (esp. German and British) killed, dispossessed and impoverished native Americans A similar fate befell the Aboriginals.

Effusive apology for past actions and compensation to current surviving generations for long past transgressions is unjustified. 

I am not responsible for the actions of earlier generations,
I had no input into the actions over which judgement is now being passed
actions may have been justifiable and understandable in the context of the time
It has all the hallmarks of the historically wounded seeking financial gain on a flaky pretext designed to promote (in some) feelings of guilt.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> They aren't blamed entirely on the monarchy that would be ludicrous. But they can be blamed on the extended establishment of which she is the head and who instigated these things and carried on defending them to the last.


Well I have to say that you seem to wantvto have your cake and eat it. We have a situation where the monarch is head of state in name only, but is not allowed any say in the conduct of government. Day to day government is carried out by those elected by the people to represent them. So you want the monarchy to shoulder blame for things that it is completely powerless to influence. I for one would have been very interested to know the views of our late queen on various issues. I suspect she might have talked a good deal more sense than many of our politicians.

.


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> .....I for one would have been very interested to know the views of our late queen on various issues. I suspect she might have talked a good deal more sense than many of our politicians.
> 
> .


Could be true. Rumour has it she was anti brexit and she did seem to have a useful role in the NI agreement. I expect she would have seen Johnson as the appallingtwat he really is, etc


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> How far back should nations go to redeem themselves for past actions? There must be a time before which current generations should not be expected to take, or accept, responsibility for the wrongs of much earlier generations.
> .....


Maybe as far as those who are still suffering from the consequences, such as Palestinians, West Indian descendants of slaves, native Americans and Australians, for starters. Could look at the depredations inflicted upon our own recent ancestors with the Highland clearances, the purges of Ireland and Wales ..... and so on!


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## thetyreman (15 Sep 2022)

lets not forget that slavery was abolished in 1833, almost 200 years ago...by the english.


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> lets not forget that slavery was abolished in 1833, almost 200 years ago...by the english.


But reparations were given to slave owners not to slaves. A bit of unfinished business there. In any case it was continued via apartheid, segregation and all the other ways in which black people were relegated to second class citizens especially in USA.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Could be true. Rumour has it she was anti brexit and she did seem to have a useful role in the NI agreement. I expect she would have seen Johnson as the appallingtwat he really is, etc


oh I should think her candid views of her various Prime minister's would make fascinating reading.


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## thetyreman (15 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> But reparations were given to slave owners not to slaves. A bit of unfinished business there. In any case it was continued via apartheid, segragation and all the other ways in which black people were relegated to second class citizens especially in USA.


so why should my generation be blamed for that? I'm in my 30s, nobody in my family is connected to the slave trade, as you know it was only mostly the elite who actually had the money to buy the ships e.t.c, same as today, most people are not in the elite, like 99%, so I'm being told it's my fault because I am white, also on top of that, it's completely ignored that white people can live in poverty by most people, and it goes against what they're trying to prove. Only the EU tried to really expose how bad and deep the poverty was, which was actually one of the main drivers for leaving the EU, tories don't like being exposed.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> But reparations were given to slave owners not to slaves. A bit of unfinished business there. In any case it was continued via apartheid, segragation and all the other ways in which black people were relegated to second class citizens especially in USA.


Indeed, plenty still to be done before we can claim any sort of genuine equality. Sadly if history teaches us anything it is that we humans are not very good at being nice to one another.


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2022)

thetyreman said:


> so why should my generation be blamed for that? I'm in my 30s, nobody in my family is connected to the slave trade, as you know it was only mostly the elite who actually had the money to buy the ships e.t.c, same as today, most people are not in the elite, like 99%, so I'm being told it's my fault because I am white, also on top of that, it's completely ignored that white people can live in poverty by most people, and it goes against what they're trying to prove. Only the EU tried to really expose how bad and deep the poverty was, which was actually one of the main drivers for leaving the EU, tories don't like being exposed.


Not your fault it's the "elite" who still hold power and wealth and use it against us.


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## Marc Shaw (15 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> oh I should think her candid views of her various Prime minister's would make fascinating reading.


I know she didn't like Thatcher at all! She felt that she (Thatcher) had destroyed her country and was angry at Thatcher's refusal to support sanctions on South Africa. I'm a dyed in the wool Republican, but the late Queen was cut from better cloth than Thatcherite creatures.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Sep 2022)

I am sure she had to endure many things that must have raised her eyebrows, or that she found personally distasteful. A knighthood for Robert Mugabe for example. Or shaking hands with Martin McGuiness, a man undoubtedly involved in the murder of Earl Mountbatten.


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## artie (15 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Effusive apology for past actions and compensation to current surviving generations for long past transgressions is unjustified.


How about speaking out against current injustices or will it be ok to leave it to our great grandchildren to say it wasn't their fault?


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## Terry - Somerset (15 Sep 2022)

> How about speaking out against current injustices or will it be ok to leave it to our great grandchildren to say it wasn't their fault?


Agree totally - far better to focus on current injustice and improving the future, than seeking repentance for a long gone past about which nothing can be done, and for which those living have no responsibility.


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## Droogs (15 Sep 2022)

She probably wasn't interested in politics at all. After all during her life she had around 20 chances to take part and never voted once.



Mind you as far as I am aware the monarch and immediate heir are the only Britons who are actually forbidden from voting on reaching their majority


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## Marc Shaw (15 Sep 2022)

Droogs said:


> She probably wasn't interested in politics at all. After all during her life she had around 20 chances to take part and never voted once.
> 
> 
> 
> Mind you as far as I am aware the monarch and immediate heir are the only Britons who are actually forbidden from voting on reaching their majority


Royal family don't/shouldn't vote... there isn't a law to stop them though,
and members of the House of Lords are not allowed to vote in General Elections.


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## Fergie 307 (15 Sep 2022)

Just watching the news and apparently Mr Putin is rather miffed that he hasn't been invited to the funeral. More evidence, as if more were needed, that he has really lost the plot.


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## Marc Shaw (15 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Just watching the news and apparently Mr Putin is rather miffed that he hasn't been invited to the funeral. More evidence, as if more were needed, that he has really lost the plot.


The world would be a much safer place is he was just a little taller.


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## Marc Shaw (15 Sep 2022)

... I do wonder if he has secret admirers amongst a few "officers" policing the royal goings on though... they seem to think it acceptable to bust people for carrying out their right to show dissent... Vlad might offer them a job.


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## Noel (15 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> Royal family don't/shouldn't vote... there isn't a law to stop them though,
> and members of the House of Lords are not allowed to vote in General Elections.



Didn't know that about the HoL. Ironic, the unelected unable to elect....
I'm sure there are good people in the place but quite a few not so good.


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## Marc Shaw (15 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> Didn't know that about the HoL. Ironic, the unelected unable to elect....
> I'm sure there are good people in the place but quite a few not so good.


I was surprised. There are laws stopping Lords voting... but not the "royal family"... but it is/would be seen as "unconstitutional" for a member of the "royal family" to vote. Yes, sadly Bozo has put some right turds in the HoL.


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## Noel (15 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I am sure she had to endure many things that must have raised her eyebrows, or that she found personally distasteful. A knighthood for Robert Mugabe for example. Or shaking hands with Martin McGuiness, a man undoubtedly involved in the murder of Earl Mountbatten.



As I recall she had no problem and was even happy meeting McGuinness, she knew that it was an important thing to do for the peace and legacy process at the time. She seemed to get on well with him.
Same can be said for Charles and his meetings with Gerry Adams which was repeated with Michelle O'Neill at Hillsborough yesterday.

PS- not sure McGuinness was involved in the Mullaghmore tragedy, that was the South Armagh outfit. As an aside Mountbatten ironically was in favour of an United Ireland.


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## Jacob (15 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I do find things like the tipping of Coulsons statue in the harbour rather silly.


Not at all.


Fergie 307 said:


> Surely it is better to use these things as a focal point for discussion. .....


That's exactly what has happened. Rather the point of the exercise. Well done chaps!


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## Marc Shaw (15 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Not at all.
> 
> That's exactly what has happened. Rather the point of the exercise. Well done chaps!


hear hear. A nasty figure from history has statues and a shopping arcade named after him around here. He was regarded as an evil git even by his contemps'... he tortured and murdered a slave girl for some trumped up crime. Why should he have an uncritical statue in my town, I've never tortured or killed anyone, why should it be that after my days, nothing is left of me, but that bar steward has an uncritical monument forever more. Put them in a colonial house of horrors museum detailing their crimes.


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## Marc Shaw (15 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> As I recall she had no problem and was even happy meeting McGuinness, she knew that it would was an important thing to do for the peace and legacy process at the time. She seemed to get on well with him.
> Same can be said for Charles and his meetings with Gerry Adams which was repeated with Michelle O'Neill at Hillsborough yesterday.
> 
> PS- not sure McGuinness was involved in the Mullaghmore tragedy, that was the South Armagh outfit. As an aside Mountbatten ironically was in favour of an United Ireland.


The people up the top know they've treated a large community very badly and had a hand in the violence... when they have to meet these people face to face in formal surroundings, they know they are just 'the other team'.... it's just the hired help who get riled up against the "nasty enemy". That's what the posters in WW1 were for, as an example.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> I was surprised. There are laws stopping Lords voting... but not the "royal family"... but it is/would be seen as "unconstitutional" for a member of the "royal family" to vote. Yes, sadly Bozo has put some right turds in the HoL.


As did May, as did Cameron, as did Brown, as did Blair ...
Name one who hasn't.


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## Scruples (16 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> I wonder if any monarch actually felt any guilt over being the head of a country that committed what was in fact genocide.
> 
> Quote from above talking about Australia
> 
> ...


Well you can tell the real strength of feeling about the Queen and her reign by the existence of the Commowealth and its peoples. Great Britain brought civilisation to countries across the world. It brought law and order, justice, stability and organisation. Yes, history is riddled with stories of subjugation and domination from many countries who were as cruel but that is history. 

The Commonwealth is strong and appears to be enthusiastic about remaining a member of, what was once, colonial rule. 
The only apology I can think of, as far as Austraila, is concerned, is the number of criminals sent there in the past.


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## Scruples (16 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> There are ways to remember and celebrate a life with open and honest dialect but there is a line where it becomes toxic and obviously being done for the wrong reasons. If a person is that well known and respected then few words are really needed to get the message across, going into a sales pitch gives the impression you are trying to sell the idea to the masses and drum up support so not a good time for the news channels especially the bbc.


I agree. The media have provided too much coverage of the death of our monarch but they have to fill the time between the death and the funeral. The BBC has changed a lot over the years and not necessarily in good ways. I wish they'd go back to just reporting rather than appearing to be knowledgeable in all things.


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## Fergie 307 (16 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> hear hear. A nasty figure from history has statues and a shopping arcade named after him around here. He was regarded as an evil git even by his contemps'... he tortured and murdered a slave girl for some trumped up crime. Why should he have an uncritical statue in my town, I've never tortured or killed anyone, why should it be that after my days, nothing is left of me, but that bar steward has an uncritical monument forever more. Put them in a colonial house of horrors museum detailing their crimes.


he was a director of the Royal Africa Company, patron at the time Charles II brother. The company branded their slaves with the initial RAC. But this was, shamefully, perfectly normal in those times. Where does your torture and murder account come from. As to his being regarded badly by his contemporaries, then why did they put up a statue, and name so many things after him. 
The facts are that yes he made a great deal of money, at least in part from his involvement in the Royal Africa Company. Many other made huge sums on the back of the slave trade. What singled Coulson out for attention was that after his departure from RAC he chose to spend a considerable proportion of his money on charitable works for the benefit of the local people, many of whom I suspect continue to benefit from his legacies and endowments. Most of his contemporaries trousered the money and built bigger houses or whatever. So did his connections with the slave trade make him an evil man? In our eyes today, undoubtedly. But to his contemporaries this would not have been to his detriment at all, and his philanthropic works made him a local hero. This is just the sort of story that needs telling so people can understand just how normal this was at the time, and how embedded the idea of slavery was in our society that a company that branded people with hot irons could be regarded as a perfectly reasonable investment opportunity. 
There was an interesting documentary made shortly before the toppling of the statue. The reporter was black, and with a family history of slavery. There was quite an emotional.moment when he discovered that His own ancestors had very likely been sold by the very company Coulson was involved with. His view was that the statue should remain, but accompanied by a more detailed explanation of his history. They also interviewed a young black lady who had benefited from one of his foundations for the education of the poor, which had put her through university of I recall correctly. She understandably had mixed emotions, but came to a similar conclusion, leave it up and use it to educate people about the past. 
If it was left for all to see then passers by might stop, thinking " I wonder who this was" and, given appropriate information, would get a thought provoking history lesson. As it is I suspect that in a few years time no one will know who he was or the story behind him.


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## Keith Cocker (16 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Maybe as far as those who are still suffering from the consequences, such as Palestinians, West Indian descendants of slaves, native Americans and Australians, for starters. Could look at the depredations inflicted upon our own recent ancestors with the Highland clearances, the purges of Ireland and Wales ..... and so on!


I’m an Ancient Briton and I’m still waiting for an apology from them thieving, raping Romans.


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## Jameshow (16 Sep 2022)

Keith Cocker said:


> I’m an Ancient Briton and I’m still waiting for an apology from them thieving, raping Romans.


Get behind me - I'm waiting for an apology from the Roman Catholic church!!


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## AJB Temple (16 Sep 2022)

bbc today has 47 separate queenie and rf articles on its web site. Totally crazy. One is dedicated to leaking pen.


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## Spectric (16 Sep 2022)

If you are the type that likes watching the kettle boil or paint dry then the BBC has good coverage of the guiness book of records attempt at the longest queue, you can watch it all day from many angles and there is a lot of queue discussion as well.


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2022)

I'd like to suggest that on Monday to show respect to her Maj that we all should forsake the media, turn off the telly all day and get outside for a bit of fresh air and not sit there like couch potatoes and eating popcorn.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2022)

I wonder if there's a queue to watch the queue?


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> ... seeking repentance for a long gone past about which nothing can be done, ....


Things could be done and the past is still with us.


----------



## Jacob (16 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> he was a director of the Royal Africa Company, patron at the time Charles II brother. The company branded their slaves with the initial RAC. But this was, shamefully, perfectly normal in those times. Where does your torture and murder account come from. As to his being regarded badly by his contemporaries, then why did they put up a statue, and name so many things after him.
> The facts are that yes he made a great deal of money, at least in part from his involvement in the Royal Africa Company. Many other made huge sums on the back of the slave trade. What singled Coulson out for attention was that after his departure from RAC he chose to spend a considerable proportion of his money on charitable works for the benefit of the local people, many of whom I suspect continue to benefit from his legacies and endowments. Most of his contemporaries trousered the money and built bigger houses or whatever. So did his connections with the slave trade make him an evil man? In our eyes today, undoubtedly. But to his contemporaries this would not have been to his detriment at all, and his philanthropic works made him a local hero. This is just the sort of story that needs telling so people can understand just how normal this was at the time, and how embedded the idea of slavery was in our society that a company that branded people with hot irons could be regarded as a perfectly reasonable investment opportunity.
> There was an interesting documentary made shortly before the toppling of the statue. The reporter was black, and with a family history of slavery. There was quite an emotional.moment when he discovered that His own ancestors had very likely been sold by the very company Coulson was involved with. His view was that the statue should remain, but accompanied by a more detailed explanation of his history. They also interviewed a young black lady who had benefited from one of his foundations for the education of the poor, which had put her through university of I recall correctly. She understandably had mixed emotions, but came to a similar conclusion, leave it up and use it to educate people about the past.
> If it was left for all to see then passers by might stop, thinking " I wonder who this was" and, given appropriate information, would get a thought provoking history lesson. As it is I suspect that in a few years time no one will know who he was or the story behind him.


The most brilliant thing of the Colston statue episode was the black girl who stood briefly in it's place and Marc Quinn's statue which followed. We need to talk about the Jen Reid statue 








'Hope flows through her': artist Marc Quinn on replacing Colston with a Black Lives Matter statue


The sculptor has placed a statue of a woman doing a black power salute on the vacant plinth in Bristol. Our writer, who was at the dawn unveiling, tells the full story of its creation – and speaks to Jen Reid, the protester whose gesture inspired him




www.theguardian.com




Something similar could be done in many places - suitable statues of victims in the place of the perpetrators. Like the Berlin holocaust memorial but one by one.


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## Marc Shaw (16 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> he was a director of the Royal Africa Company, patron at the time Charles II brother. The company branded their slaves with the initial RAC. But this was, shamefully, perfectly normal in those times. Where does your torture and murder account come from. As to his being regarded badly by his contemporaries, then why did they put up a statue, and name so many things after him.
> The facts are that yes he made a great deal of money, at least in part from his involvement in the Royal Africa Company. Many other made huge sums on the back of the slave trade. What singled Coulson out for attention was that after his departure from RAC he chose to spend a considerable proportion of his money on charitable works for the benefit of the local people, many of whom I suspect continue to benefit from his legacies and endowments. Most of his contemporaries trousered the money and built bigger houses or whatever. So did his connections with the slave trade make him an evil man? In our eyes today, undoubtedly. But to his contemporaries this would not have been to his detriment at all, and his philanthropic works made him a local hero. This is just the sort of story that needs telling so people can understand just how normal this was at the time, and how embedded the idea of slavery was in our society that a company that branded people with hot irons could be regarded as a perfectly reasonable investment opportunity.
> There was an interesting documentary made shortly before the toppling of the statue. The reporter was black, and with a family history of slavery. There was quite an emotional.moment when he discovered that His own ancestors had very likely been sold by the very company Coulson was involved with. His view was that the statue should remain, but accompanied by a more detailed explanation of his history. They also interviewed a young black lady who had benefited from one of his foundations for the education of the poor, which had put her through university of I recall correctly. She understandably had mixed emotions, but came to a similar conclusion, leave it up and use it to educate people about the past.
> If it was left for all to see then passers by might stop, thinking " I wonder who this was" and, given appropriate information, would get a thought provoking history lesson. As it is I suspect that in a few years time no one will know who he was or the story behind him.


Sorry, I was talking about Picton. He WAS so nasty, even in his own time. His descendants don't even defend him.


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## Fergie 307 (16 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> Sorry, I was talking about Picton. He WAS so nasty, even in his own time. His descendants don't even defend him.


Donnt apologise, they were all pretty unpleasant. I find Coulson particulary interesting , and I think important, because a familiarity with his story is like a one stop shop of all the issues that surround this aspect of our history. It encompasses the brutality of the trade itself, and its social acceptability at the time.


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## Fergie 307 (16 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> I wonder if there's a queue to watch the queue?


Fear not, if there is it will be televised !


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## Scruples (16 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Things could be done and the past is still with us.


No, the past is just the past. The people of today are not responsible for the behaviour of their ancestors. We can, at most, offer our sympathy for those who suffered in the past. Their descendants don't seem to complain much unless they think there's a financial benefit in the offing.


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## Fergie 307 (16 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> As I recall she had no problem and was even happy meeting McGuinness, she knew that it was an important thing to do for the peace and legacy process at the time. She seemed to get on well with him.
> Same can be said for Charles and his meetings with Gerry Adams which was repeated with Michelle O'Neill at Hillsborough yesterday.
> 
> PS- not sure McGuinness was involved in the Mullaghmore tragedy, that was the South Armagh outfit. As an aside Mountbatten ironically was in favour of an United Ireland.


Given the history and the closeness of her relationship with Mountbatten, I very much doubt she was happy about it at all. But she was a true proffessional and it was her job to be nice to people in the interests of our country, and she was very good at it. I recall watching coverage at the time and found Phillip's body language very interesting. No way he was going to shake his hand. I am reminded of the old saying " the people we make peace with are necessarily our enemies, for we have no need to make peace with our friends". I suspect that in reality it may have been one of the more difficult things she was called upon to do, and a testament to her sense of duty that she was able to bring it off with such good grace. As for McGuiness, he and Adams surely played a very important part in the peace process, for which they are to be applauded. But to suggest that as leaders of the IRA at the time they had no involvement in Mountbattens murder, is I think a little naive.


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## Fergie 307 (16 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> If you are the type that likes watching the kettle boil or paint dry then the BBC has good coverage of the guiness book of records attempt at the longest queue, you can watch it all day from many angles and there is a lot of queue discussion as well.


That is so in keeping with the solemnity of the occasion. Words fail me, they really do.


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## J-G (16 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Get behind me - I'm waiting for an apology from the Roman Catholic church!!


Don't hold your breath!!


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## AJB Temple (16 Sep 2022)

Clearly words have not failed you as your post testifies.


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## Fergie 307 (16 Sep 2022)

I think its generally know as a figure of speech or expression, in this case of disgust/disappointment, not to be taken litterally.


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2022)

Next in line for the big job.


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## Scarlet Lancer (16 Sep 2022)

I am disgusted with these comments but there you go foreigner! Your must be the minority as your countries still hold faith to our Monarch.


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## ian33a (16 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> I'd like to suggest that on Monday to show respect to her Maj that we all should forsake the media, turn off the telly all day and get outside for a bit of fresh air and not sit there like couch potatoes and eating popcorn.



Why, what's happening on Monday? Have I missed something? I didn't see anything mentioned on the news.


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## Noel (16 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Given the history and the closeness of her relationship with Mountbatten, I very much doubt she was happy about it at all. But she was a true proffessional and it was her job to be nice to people in the interests of our country, and she was very good at it. I recall watching coverage at the time and found Phillip's body language very interesting. No way he was going to shake his hand. I am reminded of the old saying " the people we make peace with are necessarily our enemies, for we have no need to make peace with our friends". I suspect that in reality it may have been one of the more difficult things she was called upon to do, and a testament to her sense of duty that she was able to bring it off with such good grace. As for McGuiness, he and Adams surely played a very important part in the peace process, for which they are to be applauded. But to suggest that as leaders of the IRA at the time they had no involvement in Mountbattens murder, is I think a little naive.



You'll be on BBC next..... : )


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## Fergie 307 (16 Sep 2022)

God forbid. They must get bored with it surely, droning on for hours non stop, finding increasingly obscure people to interview. I think it reached a low for me when Diana died and scraping the barrel for stories someone had an interview with her colonic irrigationist. Not sure anyone would have wanted to know what "insight" she might have provided.


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2022)

People might like to show respect for her Maj by turning the telly off all day on Monday, get out in the fresh air, stop being couch potatoes and stop eating popcorn. That's what I'll be doing (or not doing). 
It is a bank holiday after all, they should have done it on a week day.


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## AJB Temple (16 Sep 2022)

bbc providing amazing value for money by continuing to report on the box office queue. This morning on radio 4 they let me know that Charlie is in welsh wales, and he is accompanied by Camilla _who is the queen consort_. The bbc dunces tell us this in every mention of her as they think the british people are too dim to remember her daft title. 

She's done well though, having gone from C III's bit of skirt on the side to QC in the past decade or so.


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## Noel (16 Sep 2022)

No more queuing for a while, the queue is full:


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2022)

Oh, well. They'll just have to queue for the queue.


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## Noel (16 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Oh, well. They'll just have to queue for the queue.



As it happens there is a queue for the queue in Southwark Park.....

Trivia- the inlet between miles 4 & 5 is where the river Neckinger flows into the Thames.


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## selectortone (16 Sep 2022)

If they put the coffin on a low-loader they could drive up and down the queue and everybody would get a look in no time. Problem solved.


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2022)

selectortone said:


> If they put the coffin on a low-loader they could drive up and down the queue and everybody would get a look in no time. Problem solved.


Ooh no it'd have to be a horse and cart with brass knobs on. Good idea though. 
If they stick with queuing they'd have to speed it up and get them jogging past. It could end up like the London Marathon


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## ian33a (16 Sep 2022)

Is more exciting to watch than the BBC news has been in the past week


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## Droogs (16 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> I'd like to suggest that on Monday to show respect to her Maj that we all should forsake the media, turn off the telly all day and get outside for a bit of fresh air and not sit there like couch potatoes and eating popcorn.


but I've got the popcorn in already, before the rush


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## Noel (16 Sep 2022)

Was watching the royal car arriving at Cardiff castle (think that’s the place) and there seemed to be quite a lot of less than generous cheering. Is Charles not as popular there as some other parts of the UK? Wasn’t aware there that much hostility toward him.


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2022)

Probably more popular in Wales than in much of Cornwall.


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Probably more popular in Wales than in much of Cornwall.


I think widely regarded everywhere as a bit of a berk.
I was amazed to notice that even though having been P of Wales for 50+ years he can't speak Welsh!


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## Phil Pascoe (16 Sep 2022)

A bit of a berk. A textbook euphemism.


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## rogxwhit (16 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> Is Charles not as popular there as some other parts of the UK? Wasn’t aware there that much hostility toward him.


There is a certain hostility rooted in ancient historical grievance to having an imposed English monarch ...


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## rogxwhit (16 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> I think widely regarded everywhere as a bit of a berk.


Which has crucial implications for the institution of monarchy in the UK, which could well peter out during his reign or even more certainly that of his son ...

Media & its management could be a crucial hinge in the process - it's hard to imagine his mother being caught in public cursing a pen, for instance ... ‘Oh god I hate this’: King Charles expresses frustration over leaking pen

Maybe nations, as long as nations exist, tend to employing figureheads as a form of symbolism - and I can see a certain appeal in the faux-mystical dimension of royalty, compared to the more prosaic & hopefully non-heredity versions such as presidents. 

I think what bugs me essentially is the assumption of privilege & its connection with great wealth. 

On the other hand, I think it's pretty well proven that communism, at nation scale at least, doesn't work either. So where does that leave us?

Muddle on, shall we? That sounds rather British! But perhaps it's the universal answer.


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## Jacob (16 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> ......
> 
> On the other hand, I think it's pretty well proven that communism, at nation scale at least, doesn't work either. So where does that leave us?
> ....


It's not either/or.


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## rogxwhit (16 Sep 2022)

Where's the middle ground, the healthy way, at nation level? Even in a 'democracy', it will have to mediate between the power-hungry and the easily-espoused who are striving for identity.


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## Jameshow (16 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Which has crucial implications for the institution of monarchy in the UK, which could well peter out during his reign or even more certainly that of his son ...
> 
> Media & its management could be a crucial hinge in the process - it's hard to imagine his mother being caught in public cursing a pen, for instance ... ‘Oh god I hate this’: King Charles expresses frustration over leaking pen
> 
> ...


Why is the monarchy at greater risk under William reign? I think Charles will be a caretaker at 73 and Williams reign will be one of greater duration??


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## woodieallen (16 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> I'd like to suggest that on Monday to show respect to her Maj that we all should forsake the media, turn off the telly all day and get outside for a bit of fresh air and not sit there like couch potatoes and eating popcorn.


Or you could stop being your usual miserable gammon.


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## woodieallen (16 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Oh, well. They'll just have to queue for the queue.


Yes and they are very happy and willing to do this. They are very content to do this. No chips on shoulders. For whatever reason. No constant sniping. Here's an idea...why not start your own thread ? "I hate the Monarchy" . You and Jacob could be founding members.


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## Fergie 307 (16 Sep 2022)

I was watching the queue briefly earlier to see a friend who went down to pay his respects. I did find it strange that there seemed to be quite a few people who, having queued for hours, seemed to just walk straight past without apparently even looking at the coffin.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Things could be done and the past is still with us.


We can regret things that happened, we can't apologise for them - they were nothing to do with us.

I find it odd that we are taken by some to be personally responsible for slavery etc. when we've been told for decades, quite correctly, that we mustn't the blame current populations of Countries who in living memory took the world into wars.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

woodieallen said:


> Here's an idea...why not start your own thread ?


Conversely, so could you.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Amazon.co.uk



(other suppliers are available)

Everyone should read this.


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## Jacob (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> We can regret things that happened, we can't apologise for them - they were nothing to do with us.
> 
> I find it odd that we are taken by some to be personally responsible for slavery etc. when we've been told for decades, quite correctly, that we mustn't the blame current populations of Countries who in living memory took the world into wars.


You've missed the point. Of course we are not "personally" responsible but it's within our power (or govts power) to do something about those who are still suffering the consequences. Take the Windrush fiasco as just one example. Or racism and colour prejudice as a whole.


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## Jacob (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> Where's the middle ground, the healthy way, at nation level? Even in a 'democracy', it will have to mediate between the power-hungry and the easily-espoused who are striving for identity.


Why should there be a middle ground and why would it be healthy?


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## Fergie 307 (17 Sep 2022)

I am sure it would make interesting reading. My take was always that the Queen herself set a good example, as did Anne. Some of her other children's behaviour must have been a sad disappointment to her. Only time I found myself disappointed in the Queen herself was her readiness to dig Andrew out of the **** by buying off the complainant. A shameful episode altogether. Bit concerned to see him appearing in uniform at the vigil. I do hope Charles isn't intending to try and rehabilitate him in some way. Best thing for the family would be for Andrew to crawl away and hide permanently under a rock somewhere.


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## Jacob (17 Sep 2022)

_“The deeper outpouring of grief in the UK is understandable but seems also to unlock something else: grief, stress and sorrow over a fate the Disunited Kingdom has chosen for itself. The Queen’s funeral will mark the moment when Britain also bids farewell to the country as it was once known. The British empire used to anchor the UK firmly in the world. Later, as part of the EU it had international influence and remains still one of the biggest economies of the world.
“But questions hang over all of that. The empire is increasingly seen as a colonial crime and the strains of Brexit might tear the union itself apart. Scotland seeks independence. Northern Ireland is moving closer to the republic in the south. Having taken itself out of the daily business of the EU, Britain’s place in Europe is weaker. On the world stage it has to fight for attention as a mid-ranking trading nation going it alone.
“A country claiming to be Global Britain has, meanwhile, since Brexit, become a narrow minded, anti-immigrant, internally divided society. Driven by a sect-like group of conservative Brexiters it has ended up with a minister of energy who is a climate sceptic. It tells you a lot about the state of the UK that Jacob Rees-Mogg is more reactionary in his environmental policies than the new king Charles III.”_

Not only the above, especially the last paragraph, but also we have no constructive opposition in Parliament or in the country. It's been dismantled.









‘When mourning ends, reality will hit hard’: European journalists on Britain’s mood


UK-based correspondents assess how Britons will deal with political turmoil, Brexit, recession and the loss of the Queen




www.theguardian.com


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> You've missed the point. Of course we are not "personally" responsible but it's within our power (or govts power) to do something about those who are still suffering the consequences. Take the Windrush fiasco as just one example. Or racism and colour prejudice as a whole.


Windrush was indeed a fiasco, but I never quite understood how or why someone could live in a foreign Country for decades and not check upon their rights to be here. That doesn't make anything right, of course. If you expect the (any) government "to do something about those who are still suffering the consequences" you are making us personally responsible.


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## Jacob (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Windrush was indeed a fiasco, but I never quite understood how or why someone could live in a foreign Country for decades and not check upon their rights to be here.


They didn't know they were living in a foreign country.


> If you expect the (any) government "to do something about those who are still suffering the consequences" you are making us personally responsible.


Basic morality says we should take responsibility for other's suffering, even if they come from Cornwall.
We have inherited their problems along with the wealth we extracted.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

So they crossed the Atlantic and didn't realise they were going somewhere else?

Sorry, I can't take responsibility for something that happened two hundred years ago.


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## Fergie 307 (17 Sep 2022)

I have to agree with Jacob on that front. There are many issues where government has a clear duty to act to redress injustices for which government was responsible. Windrush, the Post Office imprisoning post masters for non existent crimes, the blood products scandal, I'm sure there are other examples. In every case successive governments of all political persuasions have sought to either flatly deny responsibility, or have dragged their heels in response to the extent that many people will die before they ever see any proper redress.


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## Jacob (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> So they crossed the Atlantic and didn't realise they were going somewhere else?
> 
> Sorry, I can't take responsibility for something that happened two hundred years ago.


It wasn't 200 years ago. Windrush generation: Who are they and why are they facing problems?


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## stuart little (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> We can regret things that happened, we can't apologise for them - they were nothing to do with us.
> 
> I find it odd that we are taken by some to be personally responsible for slavery etc. when we've been told for decades, quite correctly, that we mustn't the blame current populations of Countries who in living memory took the world into wars.


The Americans were glad to have the slaves to work the fields etc, & the Chinese to build the railroads, then after a war to 'free' the slaves they didn't know what to do with them, or no longer wanted them. Once the railroads were built the Chinese were no longer 'wanted'.


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## stuart little (17 Sep 2022)

As the name of such a sad event as 'funeral', why does it begin with'fun'?


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## Jacob (17 Sep 2022)




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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> There are many issues where government has a clear duty to act to redress injustices for which government was responsible. Windrush, the Post Office imprisoning post masters for non existent crimes, the blood products scandal, I'm sure there are other examples.


With you all the way - for current wrongs, not things that happened centuries ago.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> It wasn't 200 years ago. Windrush generation: Who are they and why are they facing problems?


Answers to two different things.


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## sammy.se (17 Sep 2022)

Great perspective.


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## Spectric (17 Sep 2022)

I would suggest that on Monday we all spend the day in our workshops, sheds and any place we have our valuables because with the country closed and everyone focused on lizzies last journey then it could be a field day for the criminals knowing that there will be no police around and easy pickings.


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## Spectric (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Probably more popular in Wales than in much of Cornwall.


Will Cornwall be seeking independance anytime soon !


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## Marc Shaw (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> As did May, as did Cameron, as did Brown, as did Blair ...
> Name one who hasn't.


To give Brown or Blair some credit, they negotiated with the Establishment to reduce the number of Hereditary Lords in the HoL.


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## Marc Shaw (17 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> Was watching the royal car arriving at Cardiff castle (think that’s the place) and there seemed to be quite a lot of less than generous cheering. Is Charles not as popular there as some other parts of the UK? Wasn’t aware there that much hostility toward him.


There are two groups here, Republicans, which i regard myself as and Nationalists, who bang on about having native royalty. I've recently read that Wales has the most dissent. The PoW title is very unpopular as it was created as a Pee take. It was also merged when Charlie became "king"... and does not pass to anyone else automatically as some claim. I refuse to call The Severn Bridge by it's recent name.


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## rogxwhit (17 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Why should there be a middle ground and why would it be healthy?


If there was no middle ground there'd be a gap, and people would fall down it. We need something to hold us up. It's healthy in that it's meant to represent the greatest good, rather than a polarity.


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## MurphyBrown (17 Sep 2022)

Droogs said:


> Is it the fact that it is not a christian expression, that you target me specifically? After all, all those who express she RIP etc are expressing a specifically christian religious belief and saying, why are you not trying to bring them to task? Perchance you are just a hypocrite.


Oh no, I'm not targeting you specifically. I think there is no place whatsoever for religious comments. Religion is purely based on story telling and like Chinese Whispers, changes as it goes along, usually to satisfy the greed and corruption of the religious leaders. Can you seriously tell me that you believe there is some sort of divine person in the clouds who controls everything in your life. "WAKE UP" !


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## MurphyBrown (17 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> There are two groups here, Republicans, which i regard myself as and Nationalists, who bang on about having native royalty. I've recently read that Wales has the most dissent. The PoW title is very unpopular as it was created as a Pee take. It was also merged when Charlie became "king"... and does not pass to anyone else automatically as some claim. I refuse to call The Severn Bridge by it's recent name, unless we can refer to the Severn Tunnel as Camilla's Hole.


I can assure you, there is a lot of dissent here in Wales, and rightly so. Charlie is not our prince not our king. The English took away our princes and kings and our right to continue the Welsh line. The term " God save the king" is both nonsense and offensive. "God" there isn't one, it's just a made up story to control and scare people into submission for the greed of others and "king" is a self given title by a family of German descent who have no right to be screwing the UK for all its worth. My advice is to denounce the Sax-Coberg family and send them back.


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## Jacob (17 Sep 2022)

rogxwhit said:


> If there was no middle ground there'd be a gap, and people would fall down it. We need something to hold us up. It's healthy in that it's meant to represent the greatest good, rather than a polarity.


But the "regime" i.e. the land and wealth owning oligarchy, headed by the monarchy and the establishment (not to mention the current record-breaking queue of sheep) think that we already have the best of all possible systems.
How would you persuade them otherwise?


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## rogxwhit (17 Sep 2022)

All we have is a right to vote, which often feels like not much, but is a lot better than nothing ...

Monarchy might eventually die out through a major decline in public support, but its members would most likely retain their huge wealth ...


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## Marc Shaw (17 Sep 2022)

MurphyBrown said:


> I can assure you, there is a lot of dissent here in Wales, and rightly so. Charlie is not our prince not our king. The English took away our princes and kings and our right to continue the Welsh line. The term " God save the king" is both nonsense and offensive. "God" there isn't one, it's just a made up story to control and scare people into submission for the greed of others and "king" is a self given title by a family of German descent who have no right to be screwing the UK for all its worth. My advice is to denounce the Sax-Coberg family and send them back.


I must admit, I find it very difficult to take (any form of, including Welsh/Native British ) monarchism or religion seriously. I'm not into mysticism at all.


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## AJB Temple (17 Sep 2022)

I had to watch part of the 20 minute vigil yesterday evening. For some reason Princess anne had dressed up as Captain Pugwash. It was hilarious. Pervy Andy had dressed up as the Fat Controller. Charlie does not suit uniforms and the other one is basically invisible. 

Tonight we get Billy and Barry doing a similar thing apparently. My wife likes to see the spectacle, but she is more connected to the royal family than me, as she is German. 

(PS. The Welsh are never happy. About anything. )


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## Marc Shaw (17 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I had to watch part of the 20 minute vigil yesterday evening. For some reason Princess anne had dressed up as Captain Pugwash. It was hilarious. Pervy Andy had dressed up as the Fat Controller. Charlie does not suit uniforms and the other one is basically invisible.
> 
> Tonight we get Billy and Barry doing a similar thing apparently. My wife likes to see the spectacle, but she is more connected to the royal family than me, as she is German.
> 
> (PS. The Welsh are never happy. About anything. )


We have a lot to be never happy about! Imagine your country being politically dragged about by Southern England.... eeewwww!


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## Droogs (17 Sep 2022)

Is it just me or does Charles in a morning suit make others think of a 1970's Dr Who?


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## Noel (17 Sep 2022)

Droogs said:


> Is it just me or does Charles in a morning suit make others think of a 1970's Dr Who?



A bit Pertwee-ish?


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I had to watch part of the 20 minute vigil yesterday evening. For some reason Princess anne had dressed up as Captain Pugwash. It was hilarious. Pervy Andy had dressed up as the Fat Controller. Charlie does not suit uniforms and the other one is basically invisible.
> 
> Tonight we get Billy and Barry doing a similar thing apparently. My wife likes to see the spectacle, but she is more connected to the royal family than me, as she is German.
> 
> (PS. The Welsh are never happy. About anything. )


Anne must have been brave to win all those medals.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> To give Brown or Blair some credit, they negotiated with the Establishment to reduce the number of Hereditary Lords in the HoL.


Ironically, many of whom who actually did a better job than than the political fartcatchers that replaced them.

if there must be a second house it should be elected.


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## Fergie 307 (17 Sep 2022)

I


AJB Temple said:


> I had to watch part of the 20 minute vigil yesterday evening. For some reason Princess anne had dressed up as Captain Pugwash. It was hilarious. Pervy Andy had dressed up as the Fat Controller. Charlie does not suit uniforms and the other one is basically invisible.
> 
> Tonight we get Billy and Barry doing a similar thing apparently. My wife likes to see the spectacle, but she is more connected to the royal family than me, as she is German.
> 
> (PS. The Welsh are never happy. About anything. )


Have always liked Anne, but she did look like a dogs dinner. Whoever chose that uniform should be sent to the tower


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## Fergie 307 (17 Sep 2022)

MurphyBrown said:


> Oh no, I'm not targeting you specifically. I think there is no place whatsoever for religious comments. Religion is purely based on story telling and like Chinese Whispers, changes as it goes along, usually to satisfy the greed and corruption of the religious leaders. Can you seriously tell me that you believe there is some sort of divine person in the clouds who controls everything in your life. "WAKE UP" !


Not sure RIP is a specifically religious sentiment. I can't see a problem with people believing whatever they like, if it gives them some comfort then so be it. My problem with religion in general is that if you look at the teachings on the one hand, and some of the stuff that has been done by alleged adherents on the other, it is very difficult to reconcile the two. Look at some of the truly barbaric behaviour carried out in the name of Christianity or Islam as just two examples. Thou shall not kill. A commendably unequivocal instruction, but not seen as an obstacle by various Popes urging their followers to go and murder muslims in the crusades. So not sure religion in and of itself is an issue, more the way people have twisted and manipulated it to their own ends.


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## niall Y (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Anne must have been brave to win all those medals.


Probably, one for every time she was bitten by the corgis.


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## Jacob (17 Sep 2022)

niall Y said:


> Probably, one for every time she was bitten by the corgis.


They get them in posh christmas crackers from Harrods


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## Spectric (17 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Anne must have been brave to win all those medals.


They were for riding a horse or two, she did look a right twaaaaate


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## Phill05 (17 Sep 2022)

At least she was good at it.


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## Spectric (17 Sep 2022)

Years of practice, someone thought she was napolean but she does have to arms which ruins the look.


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## Droogs (17 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Not sure RIP is a specifically religious sentiment. I can't see a problem with people believing whatever they like, if it gives them some comfort then so be it. My problem with religion in general is that if you look at the teachings on the one hand, and some of the stuff that has been done by alleged adherents on the other, it is very difficult to reconcile the two. Look at some of the truly barbaric behaviour carried out in the name of Christianity or Islam as just two examples. Thou shall not kill. A commendably unequivocal instruction, but not seen as an obstacle by various Popes urging their followers to go and murder muslims in the crusades. So not sure religion in and of itself is an issue, more the way people have twisted and manipulated it to their own ends.


Rule two for abrahamic religions is not actually "thou shalt not kill" but "though shall not murder" in the original Hebrew/Aramaic, with kill coming in to vogue in the KJ translation/print. Personally I'd go for the sinners bible with the rule "Thou shall commit adultery"


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

My favourite verse of the bible -
Ezekiel 23:20​​​


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Droogs said:


> Rule two for abrahamic religions is not actually "thou shalt not kill" but "though shall not murder" in the original Hebrew/Aramaic, with kill coming in to vogue in the KJ translation/print. Personally I'd go for the sinners bible with the rule "Thou shall commit adultery"


And they were engaged in religion. You could tell by the knives (it’s not murder if you do it for a god).

Terry Pratchett.


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## Phil Pascoe (17 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Years of practice, someone thought she was napolean but she does have to arms which ruins the look.


Nah ......... Adrian got it - Captain Pugwash.


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## Spectric (17 Sep 2022)

Was the church of england not created just so old Henry could re marry ! If there is but one creator then how have we ended up with so many religons, they cannot all be legit. Then is it not said in the bible that we should not worship false gods or idols, so what are these people all dressed up in purple and having titles like the archibishop of such and such, are they not putting themselves forward as being better or different to the masses !!


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## Scruples (18 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> We can regret things that happened, we can't apologise for them - they were nothing to do with us.
> 
> I find it odd that we are taken by some to be personally responsible for slavery etc. when we've been told for decades, quite correctly, that we mustn't the blame current populations of Countries who in living memory took the world into wars.


You're right. We shouldn't punish ourselves for the actions of those who went before. But it's important to learn from them. As far as I'm concerned, those countries that were colonised by our British ancestors are in a better place today for it.


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## Adam W. (18 Sep 2022)

Scruples said:


> You're right. We shouldn't punish ourselves for the actions of those who went before. But it's important to learn from them. As far as I'm concerned, those countries that were colonised by our British ancestors are in a better place today for it.


Really? India-Pakistan and the horrors of partition, I doubt it.


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## sawtooth-9 (18 Sep 2022)

I thought this was a thread to respect the passing of a great monarch.
What a incredible job She did - and my thanks and great respect.

Sadly, I can never forgive Charles for what happened with Diana. So to me, Charles can NEVER live up to his Mothers example. Whilst I have the greatest respect for the position, I have NO respect for the new King.

I doubt we will ever be another Monarch that comes anywhere close to Elizabeth 11


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Scruples said:


> You're right. We shouldn't punish ourselves for the actions of those who went before. But it's important to learn from them. As far as I'm concerned, those countries that were colonised by our British ancestors are in a better place today for it.


Not only the colonies the regime practised everything on the British population first, the devastation of Ireland, the clearances of the Highlands, similar atrocities in Wales. The effects are still with us, for instance in Scotland land distribution is more feudal than anywhere in Europe with the same families who committed many of the clearances, still in power and owning the land. In England too the clearances happened and are still happening but in a less conspicuous way e.g. the Kinder trespass is in living memory, or the issue of second homes is dominating life in many areas. Any part of Britain which is vaguely attractive and picturesque has become a playground for the better off and a worse to impossible place for the less well off.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> I thought this was a thread to respect the passing of a great monarch.
> ....


For those that wish to yes, feel free!


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## sawtooth-9 (18 Sep 2022)

Sadly, I think we have some sick puppies on this site.
This was not an invitation to condemn the Monarchy or express your political views, just to pay your own respects- not to show crass ignorant opinions.
What happened to the true English respect and politeness ?
An elderly LADY has passed - one who has given more than anyone here, and we should all respect that with dignity and restraint and gratitude.
If you can't do that the find another site.


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## PhilipL (18 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> Sadly, I think we have some sick puppies on this site.
> This was not an invitation to condemn the Monarchy or express your political views, just to pay your own respects- not to show crass ignorant opinions.
> What happened to the true English respect and politeness ?
> An elderly LADY has passed - one who has given more than anyone here, and we should all respect that with dignity and restraint and gratitude.
> If you can't do that the find another site.



You are cancelling? If I have understood the new term.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> ...
> If you can't do that the find another site.


There are plenty of places for you elsewhere! Log into Facebook
n.b. the dissent you see on here is not about her Maj herself it's about the regime and institution of which the monarch is nominal head - more symbolic puppet than leader in any real sense. She did it well; a difficult act to follow for poor old Charley, not least having to pretend to be absolutely apolitical whilst acting in an intensely political role.


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## Phill05 (18 Sep 2022)

Jacob are you now the new owner of this Woodworking forum? how about you move over, maybe go for a bike ride.


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## J-G (18 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Really? India-Pakistan and the horrors of partition, I doubt it.


Regrettably the "horrors of partition" (which they undoubtedly were) were down to Jinnah and his totally self-centered hatred of Hindus. Before he rose to power, Hindus & Muslims lived peacfully together in the same community.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Phill05 said:


> Jacob are you now the new owner of this Woodworking forum?


I always feel that's its a form of collective with the membership continuing through various managements. We own it.


Phill05 said:


> how about you move over, maybe go for a bike ride.


On me bike tomorrow!


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## artie (18 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> If you can't do that the find another site.


So banish anyone who doesn't agree with you or is man enough to state an opinion of their own rather than follow the herd.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

J-G said:


> Regrettably the "horrors of partition" (which they undoubtedly were) were down to Jinnah and his totally self-centered hatred of Hindus. Before he rose to power, Hindus & Muslims lived peacfully together in the same community.


Not everybody would agree How a British royal's monumental errors made India's partition more painful


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## Phill05 (18 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> So banish anyone who doesn't agree with you or is man enough to state an opinion of their own rather than follow the herd.


But how big is the Herd?, take a look at how many thousands/millions have travelled to pay their respects to the late queen as against how many can sit at home and po po it.


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## Jacob (18 Sep 2022)

Phill05 said:


> But how big is the Herd?, take a look at how many thousands/millions have travelled to pay their respects to the late queen as against how many can sit at home and po po it.


Stats here: Platinum Jubilee: where does public opinion stand on the monarchy? | YouGov
Small majority in favour but declining.
Charley will probably finish it off


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## Marc Shaw (18 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> So banish anyone who doesn't agree with you or is man enough to state an opinion of their own rather than follow the herd.


In the olden days, were some people clearly belong, they called it fascism


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## artie (18 Sep 2022)

Phill05 said:


> But how big is the Herd?, take a look at how many thousands/millions have travelled to pay their respects to the late queen as against how many can sit at home and po po it.


Well if you want to break it down to numbers, vastly more people are not travelling to mourn her passing.

My point was that telling someone to find another site because they have a different viewpoint and the audacity to express it, is just plain wrong.


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## thetyreman (18 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> Sadly, I think we have some sick puppies on this site.
> This was not an invitation to condemn the Monarchy or express your political views, just to pay your own respects- not to show crass ignorant opinions.
> What happened to the true English respect and politeness ?
> An elderly LADY has passed - one who has given more than anyone here, and we should all respect that with dignity and restraint and gratitude.
> If you can't do that the find another site.



right so it's not allowed that you can't be anti royal, yet you're allowed to be pro royal, sounds fair, and very democratic.


Jacob said:


> Stats here: Platinum Jubilee: where does public opinion stand on the monarchy? | YouGov
> Small majority in favour but declining.
> Charley will probably finish it off



that proves what I've always thought, thanks for sharing.


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> An elderly LADY has passed - one who has given more than anyone here


What, she has not lived like many of us on here who have had to work to live and achieve anything because it was not all delivered on a plate. She has wanted for nothing because someone invented the title monarch and so she due to no other reason than being born from the right womb got a life of luxury at everyone elses expense, not elected or selected but just a so called birthright and we are supposed to be democratic.

Living to 96 and dying is not sad but expected at some point, the risk of death greatly increases once you reach seventy and then rapidly esculates so nothing to be sad about, people should have worked out she was on her last legs at least six months ago and prepared themselves for a very natural thing called end of life.


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

Some people de value respect, in my books it is earnt and not given out on hearsay. Did she ever realise that some of her so called subjects live on the streets, homeless and some of them even were part of her military. We also have a vast number of kids living in poverty, that sounds like days long gone by and not the present yet she lorded over them without any power to kick the governments aaarse.


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## Marc Shaw (18 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Some people de value respect, in my books it is earnt and not given out on hearsay. Did she ever realise that some of her so called subjects live on the streets, homeless and some of them even were part of her military. We also have a vast number of kids living in poverty, that sounds like days long gone by and not the present yet she lorded over them without any power to kick the governments aaarse.


I wonder if she realised that the average standard of living in the UK is about to fall below that of Poland and Lithuania ! Will Charlie boy care?


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## woodieallen (18 Sep 2022)

What a miserable lot you are. You see the worst in everyone. A four letter acronym.....GAFL.


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## woodieallen (18 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Some people de value respect, in my books it is earnt and not given out on hearsay. Did she ever realise that some of her so called subjects live on the streets, homeless and some of them even were part of her military. We also have a vast number of kids living in poverty, that sounds like days long gone by and not the present yet she lorded over them without any power to kick the governments aaarse.


I think she did. Unfortunately, you are too bigoted and shallow to appreciate that fact.


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## Spectric (18 Sep 2022)

Unfortunately you are obviously brainwashed into believing the royal theme, just what they want in order to continue their pampered lives of luxury at our expense whilst we have families relying on food banks for day to day living and struggling to make ends meet, you obviously think this is acceptable in a so called non third world country and accept a privaliged few have a right bestowed upon them to hold by far the majority share of Uk wealth and look down on the rest. 

This book has been recomended as a good honest read, Amazon.co.uk


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## Marc Shaw (18 Sep 2022)

How many days mourning did we have for 200 thousand Covid victims again?


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## Scruples (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Stats here: Platinum Jubilee: where does public opinion stand on the monarchy? | YouGov
> Small majority in favour but declining.
> Charley will probably finish it off


I doubt Charles will have long enough to see much decline in the monarchy.


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## Scruples (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Not only the colonies the regime practised everything on the British population first, the devastation of Ireland, the clearances of the Highlands, similar atrocities in Wales. The effects are still with us, for instance in Scotland land distribution is more feudal than anywhere in Europe with the same families who committed many of the clearances, still in power and owning the land. In England too the clearances happened and are still happening but in a less conspicuous way e.g. the Kinder trespass is in living memory, or the issue of second homes is dominating life in many areas. Any part of Britain which is vaguely attractive and picturesque has become a playground for the better off and a worse to impossible place for the less well off.


Being a 'superpower' since the 16th century takes its toll on a country. Britain wanted Ireland, the Scots and Welsh were ....problematical. The ambitions of those in power made sure Britain stayed in the big league and brought industrial change across the world. 
I don't, or would never apologise for all that. What happened, happened. The world is as it is and no amount of hand-wringing is going to alter that. 

I see that you moved away from imperialist issues to second homes. Second homes owned by successful people of all backgrounds which doesn't have any relevance to your original theme. Methinks, there's a touch of bitterness there, Jacob. Is your given name have anything to do with that?


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## sawtooth-9 (19 Sep 2022)

artie said:


> So banish anyone who doesn't agree with you or is man enough to state an opinion of their own rather than follow the herd.


I am quite comfortable with someone disagreeing, our different views should all be respected.
It's a pity that this post has turned into a political issue - not the place and time, in my view.

For those who are so anti - monarchy, maybe they should give some thought to where they would be without their history - good and bad.
The historic achievements of England are truly amazing for such a small country - only possible because of the Monarchy.

The country seems to be divided between those who have and those who have not.
Those who have, have worked for it ( QE 2 worked damn hard at it ).
Those who have not, expect society to give it to them.
I know where my respect lies.


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## Keith Cocker (19 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> Really? India-Pakistan and the horrors of partition, I doubt it.


Blame Jinnah and Nehru for that.


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## gregmcateer (19 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> The historic achievements of England are truly amazing for such a small country - only possible because of the Monarchy.
> 
> The country seems to be divided between those who have and those who have not.
> Those who have, have worked for it ( QE 2 worked damn hard at it ).
> ...



"... only possible because of the monarchy" 
- Might be time to read a little wider in the history books, mate. 

"Those who have, have worked for it..
Those who have not, expect society to give it to them."

I think we all know that whilst some do achieve financial gain purely through hard work, the vast majority of wealthy folk may well have worked incredibly hard, but they either started from some form of advantage, (family money, connections, etc) and/or hit a rich vein with assistance from peers, colleagues and employees. 

Those who don't have it do NOT all just expect society to give it to them. That is just untrue.


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## J-G (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Not everybody would agree How a British royal's monumental errors made India's partition more painful


For a clear discourse of what went on you may find Lady Hamilton's first hand account, as detailed in "The Feringhees : Sir Robert & Sir William - Two Europeans in India" a useful tome.
(ISBN: 9780199457465)

I do mean a tome! It's a 2 Volume work written by someone who was there at the time.


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## AJB Temple (19 Sep 2022)

I've read the account referred to above and a few others. The partition story is almost invariably written from one of the three main biased perspectives. It's easy to blame Mountbatten and he was by most accounts a weak and vain man in many respects. But he was also given a near impossible job with little useful support from the civil service, and whatever he did one or other side would have been aggrieved. The two religious factions were have killed each other in great numbers anyway and it is much more logical, if one is truly dispassionate, to blame religious divides (ridiculous as they are) than the British who's time was clearly over and needed to be out of there and let the locals fight it out. I would say religious dogma (and those who promote the intolerance it brings) has far more to answer for than Mountbatten or the British establishment. 

We have recently seen, in Leicester on our own doorstep, similar factions at work. All in the name of planted faith and doctrines. Humans are both clever and stupid simultaneously. We are supposedly rational beings but choose to believe unprovable and unevidenced things.


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2022)

Keith Cocker said:


> Blame Jinnah and Nehru for that.


That's odd, so you're saying that the British had nothing to do with the creation of Pakistan and the partition of India and it was all Jinnah and Nehrus' fault.


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## Chris152 (19 Sep 2022)

sawtooth-9 said:


> The country seems to be divided between those who have and those who have not.
> Those who have, have worked for it ( QE 2 worked damn hard at it ).
> Those who have not, expect society to give it to them.
> I know where my respect lies.


The first sentence has some truth.
You don't really believe the rest, do you? Speaking of respect while describing the millions of people, who are working their socks off trying to feed their kids amid a financial crisis, in that way? I can see how such an account of the haves and have-nots saves thinking about the complex reasons for the extensive poverty in this country, but it's pretty offensive.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

woodieallen said:


> I think she did.


What did she do - give them a special wave as she drove past!


woodieallen said:


> Unfortunately, you are too bigoted and shallow to appreciate that fact.


I like to think more sceptical than bigoted.


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

Well there is light at the end of the tunnel, tommorow she will be in her slot in the crypt and everything can get back to some form of normality, many people will come back to earth with a bang and have to face reality and get on with living. 

The one thing about the partition of India is that no one can blame the Americans for this one unlike so many other disasters that they were involved in and the british must have had some part to play but like most of these events it was the people who lived there that suffered whilst the people who caused the problem just watch from afar.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

Scruples said:


> .... Methinks, there's a touch of bitterness there, Jacob. Is your given name have anything to do with that?


What is it that you are trying to say?


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## J-G (19 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> That's odd, so you're saying that the British had nothing to do with the creation of Pakistan and the partition of India and it was all Jinnah and Nehrus' fault.


I would take Nehru out of that equation. Jinnah was intransigent and jealous of Nehru so did all he could to disrupt the whole process.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

J-G said:


> I would take Nehru out of that equation. Jinnah was intransigent and jealous of Nehru so did all he could to disrupt the whole process.


Yes but the whole scenario was a result of British imperialism which was a disaster for almost all involved and still playing out. Not even particularly profitable for the principle operatives - Imperialism (Hobson book) - Wikipedia.
Interesting quote from the above link: 
_"A capitalist society could avoid resorting to imperialism through the radical re-distribution of the national economic resources among the society, and so increase the economic-consumption power of every citizen." _
Says it all in a nutshell.
Somebody needs tell Liz Truss!


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

Maybe the Chinese are showing us how to benefit from the wealth of other countries, not by claiming them as part of an empire and ruling them but by building vast amounts of infrastructure like railways and schools in exchange for minerals. 



Jacob said:


> "A capitalist society could avoid resorting to imperialism through the radical re-distribution of the national economic resources among the society, and so increase the economic-consumption power of every citizen."


That is the fundamental issue for many countries and the UK is high on the list. Liz truss is already showing her views, "the workers are lazy" and she is helping the wealthy with her financial plans so don't expect a bright future. The cake is more than big enough for everyone to have a slice but that would mean bringing down the barriers and the wealthy sharing, having a fair society where everyone is equal is not even on the list for that sector of society and unfortunately the outdated class system is being kept alive.


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## GweithdyDU (19 Sep 2022)

Phill05 said:


> But how big is the Herd?, take a look at how many thousands/millions have travelled to pay their respects to the late queen as against how many can sit at home and po po it.


But still a very small percentage of the 67 million + that live in the UK currently. NOT a comment either way on the monarchy. Can't be bothered either way either as it makes no difference to the issues I'm interested in solving in the Dis-United Kingdom. Things like child-poverty, the fact that 86% of Autistic women have been victims of sexual assault and or domestic violence, people with dementia being made incontinent when they go into hospital or care because it is easier (even though it often creates more expensive for the state n the long run), the break up of this Dis-United Kingdom, rising hate crime against disabled people, etc. (the list is a long one). Scrapping the monarchy won't solve these issues and just imagine if we had some of the UK's big name politicians as a president! Not having a monarchy hasn't stopped the US political system turning to uber-right wing raspberry juice has it!

But back to the monarchy and the death of the Queen. My take is 'leave them alone right now'. They've lost a Mum, Nain, Aunty etc.. None of my business as grief is a personal thing and I'm not connected to the Windsors. I actually find it distasteful and almost cruel to turn the personal grief of a family into a public spectacle of vicarious/pseudo affection. People leaving teddies as if they themselves were connected at a familial level to HM. A comment from one visitor to the Queen's coffin summed it up for me "Seeing the Queen's coffin helped me with my own grief". Exactly! What YOU need and want, it makes YOU feel better. A sort of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy way of thinking. Imagine, your Mum has just died,you're dealing with arguments about who you're going to invite to the funeral, the grandchildren that have fallen out with each other, the will, funeral arrangements, Dad's second-wife, Nain's photo album, etc etc. and now you have to go and smile and greet thousands of members of the public, have every move you make analysed by the press and be subjected to criticism and speculation from the press etc.; regardless of political options about the monarchy, that's just cruel. Especially when you most likely want/need to shout "(insert own expletive)" down the toilet and flush it away.

Both rabid monarchy lovers and haters, please just leave then alone to grieve in private and display some common humanity and compassion. Both groups are as bad as each other over not having any of either over the death of Queen Elizabeth the Second. I'll be fixing the flashings onto my newly built stable today and not watching the funeral of HM. I always found it a bit disturbing that people go to funerals of people they weren't friends with or related to.


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

You have said it well @GweithdyDU , this is just a funeral of a 96 year old but because she is a " queen " it has just become one huge circus with the family as the performers. At what point did we change our mind about the paparazzi and news coverage invading peoples right to privacy, I think the monarchy has taken this opportunity to try and prop themselves up after having a rough decade and with Harry about to dish the dirt. 



GweithdyDU said:


> please just leave then alone to grieve in private and display some common humanity and compassion


But is it not the monarchy that has put there head above the parapet and shoved themselves into our faces at every opportunity on every channel for days, before that we thought the tory leadship contest was draged out but this fiasco just defies dignity. Prince Philip's funeral was dignified, it reflected upon his life and he chose to have a royal ceremonial funeral and not a state funeral, this choice was made before covid so it was his wishes which reflects upon his humanity.


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## Terry - Somerset (19 Sep 2022)

I decided to look at some objective facts rather than shoot from the hip emotive outpourings:

*Food banks - *Last year were used by ~2.2m. Simple maths suggests, therefore that ~97% of people did not use a food bank, or if based on households ~94% of people did not use a food bank.

Suggesting large swathes of the UK are so reliant is emotive nonsense. Those who have genuine need should not be ignored - they clearly need (and should receive) targeted support.

*Monarchy *- a You-gov poll in June 2022 showed only 62% in favour of a continuing monarch (down from 75% a decade earlier) giving rise to the assertion that the monarchy was in its final throes.

There are of course lies, damn lies and statistics. The same poll showed only 22% in favour of an elected head of state. The remaining 16% may have been don't know or don't care. 

How statistics are interpreted often depends on preconceived outcomes, not objective analysis. 

*UK standard of living *- the UK GDP per capita using purchasing power parity is close to the EU average. Poland is 25% lower. Based on nominal GDP Poland is ~60% lower.

As a major plank of EU strategy is "levelling up" (a familiar phrase) individual members, it is unsurprising the ex-eastern bloc countries are increasing more rapidly.

BTW I am not defending the UK record of economic or social governance, simply pointing out that glib statements are less convincing than reasoned analysis.

*Colonial apologists* - not an objective analysis - just realism. Human beings are competitive in seeking status, material wealth, control etc. In this they are no different to animals who compete for "leader of the pack" often to ensure reproduction of the best genetic material. 

Within society we compete, usually within a framework of rules and social conventions, for wealth, position, and all that it brings - better food, holidays, cars, education, health care etc etc. Unless faced with a major threat, AFAIK no country has succeeded in eliminating competitive drive. 

The empire was an outcome of competitive drive. The UK was very good at it. Russia, China and the US have now come to dominate. 

Apologising for actions a long time past which underpin survival (at a basic level) and progress is just an empty gesture (sanctimonious claptrap). This is entirely different to actions taken in respect of more recent abuses where those still alive have suffered - eg: Windrush, contaminated blood.


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

You missed out child poverty

" 1-in-4 children living in poverty set to worsen during cost of living crisis 12 July 2022. New figures released today show *3.6 million* children are still living in poverty in the UK, down 200,000 (-2%) on the year before. " 

In a so called modern G7 country what is the excuse for any reliance on food banks, child poverty or homelessness. Then do you think our living standards are great for all, inflation at 10% means your income is worth 10% less and we must all have noticed the increased cost when we go shopping. 

This is all the fault of our government, only they have the power to inact change and instead have just watched us sink, imigration out of control and an energy crisis, just imagine what Lizzy might have said to our PM had she been allowed to instead of just having to watch the mess unfold.


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## rogxwhit (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Somebody needs tell Liz Truss!


I think she is fairly deaf ...!


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2022)

There will always be child poverty as long poverty is defined by a fixed percentage. We could be multi millionaires and a mere millionaire would be classed as living in poverty.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

Terry - Somerset said:


> Within society we compete, usually within a framework of rules and social conventions, for wealth, position, and all that it brings - better food, holidays, cars, education, health care etc etc. Unless faced with a major threat, AFAIK no country has succeeded in eliminating competitive drive.


Human development has come about by _*cooperation*_ at every level throughout history. The myth of competition as a major force is just a right wing fantasy - an attempt to justify unbalanced distributions of wealth.


Terry - Somerset said:


> The empire was an outcome of competitive drive. The UK was very good at it. Russia, China and the US have now come to dominate.


According to Hobson the UK was very bad at it and the empire a complete waste. Russia is bad at it too.


Terry - Somerset said:


> Apologising for actions a long time past which underpin survival (at a basic level) and progress is just an empty gesture (sanctimonious claptrap). This is entirely different to actions taken in respect of more recent abuses where those still alive have suffered - eg: Windrush, contaminated blood.


It's not about apologising it's about remedying the effects which are still with us, and in the process recognising what got us to this position. Recommended reading Black and British by David Olusoga review – reclaiming a lost past


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> There will always be child poverty as long poverty is defined by a fixed percentage. We could be multi millionaires and a mere millionaire would be classed as living in poverty.


Don't be silly it isn't defined by a fixed percentage.
"Poverty is a state or condition in which a person or community lacks the financial resources and essentials for a minimum standard of living. Poverty means that the income level from employment is so low that basic human needs can't be met".
There is a point at which people find themselves ill/un-housed, unfed, ill and untreated etc etc. I think you'd recognise it very easily if you found yourself there!


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## AJB Temple (19 Sep 2022)

I know you are keen to turn everyone to your biased viewpoint Jacob, but I think there is increasingly a backlash against BLM, bbc style woke viewpoints etc. When it is repeated too often the message becomes inaudible and can even create a backlash. BLM factions for example create anti BLM factions. You can replace BLM with whatever you like: a religious creed for example. 

The non-white segment of the UK population is somewhere around 15% (guesses vary) and the black portion of that is somewhere around a third. It does not mean there is anything special about it - it's just a fact. 

It is also not the responsibility of those living today to remedy the effects of actions of those who are long dead. No one inherits responsibility for past events that may have seemed OK then but are regarded as wrong now through the judgemental telescope of history. We just live our lives mostly doing the best we can, with whatever beliefs and morals we choose to have. They will be different for everyone.


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## thetyreman (19 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> There will always be child poverty as long poverty is defined by a fixed percentage. We could be multi millionaires and a mere millionaire would be classed as living in poverty.


it's often not though choice though sadly, a child does not get a say into whether they are born into a greedy corrupt rich family like the trumps or somebody in the bottom 1%, what we have lost in the last 10 years is ability to empathise with the poorest people in society, it's become normalised through right wing media propaganda to mock them.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2022)

... the poorest people in society, it's become normalised through right wing media propaganda to mock them? You have examples of this, I presume?


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I know you are keen to turn everyone to your biased viewpoint Jacob, but I think there is increasingly a backlash against BLM, bbc style woke viewpoints etc. ....


I think there's more of a backlash against the great unwoke. Look what they have given us; Brexit, Johnson, Truss!
Time they woke up, I'm all for it.


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## Adam W. (19 Sep 2022)

All in all, I think they gave the Queen a good send off.


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## Keith Cocker (19 Sep 2022)

Adam W. said:


> That's odd, so you're saying that the British had nothing to do with the creation of Pakistan and the partition of India and it was all Jinnah and Nehrus' fault.


"Indian Politicians wished for partition, religious bigotry reinforced it and the British rightly responded to indigenous desire to get out quickly. Like other post colonial messes indigenous people need to accept responsibility for their own actions and destinies.


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## Keith Cocker (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Yes but the whole scenario was a result of British imperialism which was a disaster for almost all involved and still playing out. Not even particularly profitable for the principle operatives - Imperialism (Hobson book) - Wikipedia.
> Interesting quote from the above link:
> _"A capitalist society could avoid resorting to imperialism through the radical re-distribution of the national economic resources among the society, and so increase the economic-consumption power of every citizen." _
> Says it all in a nutshell.
> Somebody needs tell Liz Truss!


Sorry Jacob but that's not correct. Hindus and Muslims had been beating the merde out of each other for centuries before the British came. They are at it again now.


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

What is a BLM ?



thetyreman said:


> it's often not though choice though sadly, a child does not get a say into whether they are born into a greedy corrupt rich family like the trumps or somebody in the bottom 1%,


The statistics will always look bad because the poor tend to breed like rabbits whilst the rich have more pressing things to deal with so you get more poor kids.


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

Is it black lesbian minority ?


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## Cozzer (19 Sep 2022)

By choice, I've missed much of the TV coverage - I'm not anti-monarchy, but the seemingly incessant verbal description of what you could see/already knew, was mind-numbing.
I'm dreading the forthcoming "another chance to watch" series on the Beeb. It could take years....


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

Keith Cocker said:


> Sorry Jacob but that's not correct. Hindus and Muslims had been beating the merde out of each other for centuries before the British came. They are at it again now.


Yes but they would probably have been better left to their own devices. Empire just as likely to prolong and/or exacerbate existing conflicts. Certainly did nothing to resolve them.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> Is it black lesbian minority ?


Black Lives Matter.
The great unwoke dopily read this as white lives don't matter, but they are not very sharp, nodding off at the back there, dreaming of brexit paradise.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

Cozzer said:


> By choice, I've missed much of the TV coverage - I'm not anti-monarchy, but the seemingly incessant verbal description of what you could see/already knew, was mind-numbing.
> I'm dreading the forthcoming "another chance to watch" series on the Beeb. It could take years....


Boxed set? (no pun intended)


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## Cozzer (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Boxed set? (no pun intended)


Naughty, Jacob. Naughty.


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## Cozzer (19 Sep 2022)

Cozzer said:


> By choice, I've missed much of the TV coverage - I'm not anti-monarchy, but the seemingly incessant verbal description of what you could see/already knew, was mind-numbing.
> I'm dreading the forthcoming "another chance to watch" series on the Beeb. It could take years....


And as if by magic, the BBC news, right now....

"And nobody wanted it to end, because they knew it would be.....the end."

Ye Gods.


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## Terry - Somerset (19 Sep 2022)

I generally support the monarchy and have a high regard for the way in which the now departed Queen consistently conducted herself to very high standards.

But I now understand what it is like to live without TV - I decided not to allow myself to suffer the continual misery, monotonal wallowing, repeated interviews and coverage on all channels. In fairness the organisation and related pageantry was exceptional.

Now we need to get ready for the promotional blitz - commemorative mugs, teapots, tee-shirts, box sets, coins, stamps and notes with historically correct imagery, coffee table books (do they still exist??), countless TV and magazine articles (I knew the Queen), after dinner speaking tours (I actually had dinner with the Queen) etc etc etc.

Unutterably tedious. At least the Coronation will have sufficient notice to be somewhere the BBC does not reach.


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> The great unwoke dopily read this as white lives don't matter, but they are not very sharp, nodding off at the back there, dreaming of brexit paradise.


It is racist really because to be correct it should read all lives mater .



Terry - Somerset said:


> Now we need to get ready for the promotional blitz - commemorative mugs, teapots, tee-shirts, box sets, coins, stamps and notes with historically correct imagery, coffee table books (do they still exist??), countless TV and magazine articles (I knew the Queen), after dinner speaking tours (I actually had dinner with the Queen) etc etc etc.


I did pass on that suggestion that as woodworkers we should have made memorabilia in the form of a coffin on a stone plaque complete with flag for £50, we could have got a nice little cottage industry going.



Terry - Somerset said:


> But I now understand what it is like to live without TV - I decided not to allow myself to suffer the continual misery, monotonal wallowing, repeated interviews and coverage on all channels. In fairness the organisation and related pageantry was exceptional.


Don't count your chickens to soon, in all probability this will all be repeated again within the next ten years for Charly, he has had 70 years of doing his own thing and now is expected to have the life of a monarch so a lot of stress and travel with some over indulgence.


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## Fergie 307 (19 Sep 2022)

Keith Cocker said:


> Sorry Jacob but that's not correct. Hindus and Muslims had been beating the merde out of each other for centuries before the British came. They are at it again now.


sadly all to often repeated. All across Africa and elsewhere. Once the Colonial power withdraws the locals resume where they left off when we arrived, all to often the result is brutal tribal warfare an or genocide.


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## selectortone (19 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> It is racist really because to be correct it should read all lives mater


Whoooosh

The point is, white lives _already_ matter, black lives should matter as much.


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

selectortone said:


> Whoooosh
> 
> The point is, white lives _already_ matter, black lives should matter as much.


Exactly. Or "black lives also matter"


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## Jacob (19 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> sadly all to often repeated. All across Africa and elsewhere. Once the Colonial power withdraws the locals resume where they left off when we arrived, all to often the result is brutal tribal warfare an or genocide.


Not possible. Generations have passed and their lives overturned. They "resumed" from the position they were left in by the colonialists who had made no provision for the change and often had treated the locals like slaves.


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Exactly. Or "black lives also matter"


Or "Black Lives Matter" and so do everyone else's..


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## Phil Pascoe (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Not possible. Generations have passed and their lives overturned. They "resumed" from the position they were left in by the colonialists who had made no provision for the change and often had treated the locals like slaves.


A point someone made the other day - why were there three regiments of the King's African Rifles? Because they'd have been killing each other if not others.


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## Fergie 307 (19 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Not possible. Generations have passed and their lives overturned. They "resumed" from the position they were left in by the colonialists who had made no provision for the change and often had treated the locals like slaves.


Jacob if you regard the excesses of the likes of Mugabe, Bokassa, Amin, Pol Pot etc to be the responsibility of the departed colonial power then you really need to explain how you come to that rather bizarre conclusion. To take just one example, Zimbabwe. Under colonial rule one of the most prosperous countries in Africa. Able to grow sufficient food to feed her own people, and with significant excess exported all over the world, including to her less prosperous neighbours. Under Mugabe it became one of Africas poorest countries, mass starvation, much of the infrastructure destroyed. Generally a shambles. Generally down to massive corruption and incompetence by Mugabe and his cronies, once of course they had largely eliminated any meaningful opposition to their regime.


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## Spectric (19 Sep 2022)

Well now she is in the crypt on a shelf next to Philip I suppose this thread will come to an end and everything will return to normal and there will color once again for people on Tv and we can see the back of that morbid looking black google.


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## AJB Temple (19 Sep 2022)

Indeed. The End.


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## Fergie 307 (19 Sep 2022)

Yes, we have drifted somewhat from the original post. A good send off for a remarkable woman.


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## Phil Pascoe (20 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> Indeed. The End.


I wish. It'll be like 1966.


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## Jacob (20 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> ,,,, Under colonial rule one of the most prosperous countries in Africa.


But not for the Africans.
Ditto the abandoned colonies in general. 
Rather like emptying prisons and expecting them to immediately pick up the trappings of a civilised life. It may take generations.


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## Fergie 307 (20 Sep 2022)

I will not bite, I will not bite.


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## Jameshow (20 Sep 2022)

Can someone tell me the best way to sharpen.....?!


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## Chris70 (20 Sep 2022)

… and there I was, thinking this was a woodworkers’ forum. Nonetheless, some very diverse opinions. Quite educational I’d say. And I always seem to appreciate both sides of an argument. But can we get back to hammers and nails and screws and glues and stuff, now?


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## cmoops2 (20 Sep 2022)

Chris70 said:


> … and there I was, thinking this was a woodworkers’ forum. Nonetheless, some very diverse opinions. Quite educational I’d say. And I always seem to appreciate both sides of an argument. But can we get back to hammers and nails and screws and glues and stuff, now?


And sharpening ?


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## redefined_cycles (20 Sep 2022)

I think maybe this belongs here (with all due respect) and possibly this (can't find it, professor from Harvard or the likes explaining how history in the West has always been skewed with lots and lots of lies).

Regards the Liecester situation. It's not something that 'just' happened. Hindutva supporting members - chanting slogans similar to the ones shouted out by the BJP and Hindutva members when commiting the genocide in India which is currently taking place - have been coming out in Liecester on the streets with bats and knives. A few muslim youth were beaten almost to death. The Liecester muslim community is known (and rightly so) to be a very timid and peaceful lot (unlike Bradford where they're all a bit mental it appears).

Media reported nothing of it and the way these Hindutva supporters had been terrorising the muslims (my kids would have been one of them if we lived there). Suddenly the muslim community stands up to say 'enough is enough' and the media get on the bandwagon... Look here, them muslims at it again...

Full disclaimer - I'm a practising muslim (who happened to have saved many many lives across various ICUs during Covid and before) so I can appreciate how it's a conflict of interest (my view). But I'm sure CJ Werleman (ex Islam hater who joined the dots and now highlights the double standards) will soom have a video on it. Here's one he did earlier about the genocide happening right now in India - whilst the world smiles and looks on... Just saying!

Actually, here's one he did on the precursor of whats happening now... I'm sure if anyone goes through his channel they'll see more about the current genocide in India (against the muslims) if you can be bothered - 

Funny how the Queens death brings about all sorts of links hey...


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## redefined_cycles (20 Sep 2022)

Indeed, good point and sorry (on my behalf). I keep meaning to not visit this thread. Will try harder ;-)


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## GweithdyDU (20 Sep 2022)

Spectric said:


> It is racist really because to be correct it should read all lives mater .
> 
> 
> I


The BLM movement has never said that Black lives are more important than other lives. It is a reminder that Black lives do actually matter as in the US and here in the Dis-United Kingdom, cultural norms and values, and the actions of both states would suggest that they're not considered to matter as much as other folk's lives. By way of example 

The proportion of BAME deaths in custody where restraint is a feature is *over two times* greater than it is in other deaths in custody
The proportion of BAME deaths in custody where use of force is a feature is *over two times* greater than it is in other deaths in custody
The proportion of BAME deaths in custody where mental health-related issues are a feature is *nearly two times *greater than it is in other deaths in custody
Not enough interest or time to type in all the inequality stats, but it is easy to see why many Black and other racial minorities consider that the state doesn't give a damn; especially when considering issues of health inequality arrest/stop-n-search figures that lead to NFA, much more likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act for displaying behaviour that does not get white people sectioned at anywhere near the same numbers. The stats for innocent black lives taken by US cops is shocking etc etc. It is true that other groups in society also live with systemic prejudice. The figures for disabled people, inc. Neurodivergent people are even worse but if you're black and disabled the figures are even more depressing. Systemic prejudice is a difficult force to counter, but counter it we must.


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## sawtooth-9 (21 Sep 2022)

gregmcateer said:


> "... only possible because of the monarchy"
> - Might be time to read a little wider in the history books, mate.
> 
> "Those who have, have worked for it..
> ...


No 1. A bit presumptuous to call someone " mate " unless you know them or are being rude
No 2 Truth is " how YOU see it " Maybe it's time you open your eyes and wake up to some cold hard facts !
Redistribution of wealth from those who earn, to those who do not earn - is not a real flash prospect unless you are at the receiving end.
I guess we agree to disagree.


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## gregmcateer (21 Sep 2022)

1. I shouldn't have made such an assumption. When I was in Australia, 'mate' was a standard term of acknowledgement of another human. Clearly not where you live. Apologies, sir. 
2. Yep


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## redefined_cycles (21 Sep 2022)

redefined_cycles said:


> Indeed, good point and sorry (on my behalf). I keep meaning to not visit this thread. Will try harder ;-)


Anyway. Here's CJ Werleman explaining something about the Liecester violence that most British media don't like reporting. So please may I ask anyone citing the Liecester situation as, 'they're always at it against each other' please do stop it...


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## Marc Shaw (21 Sep 2022)

A bit of truth about what happens to a country turned into a colony


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## gregmcateer (21 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> A bit of truth about what happens to a country turned into a colony



Thanks for sharing this, Marc. Although I had heard or read some of the info before, it is often tricky to find this stuff in the UK.

Maybe time more of us 'woke' up to the fuller picture of global history told from all sides, rather than just euro- or UK- centric.


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## Marc Shaw (21 Sep 2022)

gregmcateer said:


> Thanks for sharing this, Marc. Although I had heard or read some of the info before, it is often tricky to find this stuff in the UK.
> 
> Maybe time more of us 'woke' up to the fuller picture of global history told from all sides, rather than just euro- or UK- centric.


Exactly, I live in Wales, was educated when EVERYTHING was governed like a colony of england, was like something from the bleedin' 50s... it is a bit different now, youngsters here (at least) are rather woke<snigger>.. well, the brighter ones. Sods have been dragging us down the bog socially for the last 20-30 years. Makes me puke when people don't accept they have been spoon fed/brainwashed... oh no, they think they're too clever for that! ... I suppose those of consequence have had hundreds of years practice marshalling the drones.


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## Marc Shaw (21 Sep 2022)

gregmcateer said:


> 1. I shouldn't have made such an assumption. When I was in Australia, 'mate' was a standard term of acknowledgement of another human. Clearly not where you live. Apologies, sir.
> 2. Yep


I always chuckle when the plod or a security guard says "chap"...


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## Thingybob (21 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Can someone tell me the best way to sharpen.....?!


Turn left at the big roundabout


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

Phil Pascoe said:


> Or "Black Lives Matter" and so do everyone else's..


Great fan of Michael Conolly. The lead character in many of his books is a homicide detective named Harry Bosch. His guiding principle is "either everybody counts or nobody does" a good way of looking at things I think, and very much applicable in the context of this issue.


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## Spectric (22 Sep 2022)

Can we just agree to disagree, in the UK we freely use the term mate as a generic term to address someone we may not know. As an example I have said " Hey mate can you tell me where I find the B1607 " to a total stranger when driving round a town I am not familiar with and they don't take offence. In Aus I think they prefix it with good day or G'day .


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## Noel (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Great fan of Michael Conolly. The lead character in many of his books is a homicide detective named Harry Bosch. His guiding principle is "either everybody counts or nobody does" a good way of looking at things I think, and very much applicable in the context of this issue.



Great books I agree. Series on Amazon excellent too.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

gregmcateer said:


> Thanks for sharing this, Marc. Although I had heard or read some of the info before, it is often tricky to find this stuff in the UK.
> 
> Maybe time more of us 'woke' up to the fuller picture of global history told from all sides, rather than just euro- or UK- centric.


I am all for getting all sides of the story. The only way to really try and make a judgement. Unfortunately there are many, on both sides of any argument, who are prepared to accept any account that supports their own pre concieved views, as being necessarily truthful. Any account that contradicts it must therefore be, of course, a tissue of lies. In reality is is often very difficult to find any account that tells the absolute truth. Every writer is biased in some way, whether deliberately or otherwise and so may incluude or omit certain facts, statistics or whatever accotrdingly.


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## Marc Shaw (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I am all for getting all sides of the story. The only way to really try and make a judgement. Unfortunately there are many, on both sides of any argument, who are prepared to accept any account that supports their own pre concieved views, as being necessarily truthful. Any account that contradicts it must therefore be, of course, a tissue of lies. In reality is is often very difficult to find any account that tells the absolute truth. Every writer is biased in some way, whether deliberately or otherwise and so may incluude or omit certain facts, statistics or whatever accotrdingly.


I'm sure the "facts" that fellow in the video came out with can be researched. It's pretty obvious that if the natives are precluded from any office in a "colony" and the coloniser beats a hasty withdrawal you'll not only have power vacuums but nobody with elected or political experience to run the place. Add that to a bunch of wealthy upper class sociopaths drawing lines on a map to create countries out of former colonies with no concern or respect for the local's feelings, and further if there are any pickings left in a country we see interference from western countries in trying to select a favourable ruler. Happened in South America, many parts of Africa, the Persian countries and even the late Queen stuck the knife into a lefty who got to be Australian PM in the 50s(i think) . Not that Australia can quite be lumped into the turmoil that some countries suffered. I'm sure they were all complicated affairs... but it's not just an "account" or an "opinion" on what was done, It's a matter of record.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> I'm sure the "facts" that fellow in the video came out with can be researched. It's pretty obvious that if the natives are precluded from any office in a "colony" and the coloniser beats a hasty withdrawal you'll not only have power vacuums but nobody with elected or political experience to run the place. Add that to a bunch of wealthy upper class sociopaths drawing lines on a map to create countries out of former colonies with no concern or respect for the local's feelings, and further if there are any pickings left in a country we see interference from western countries in trying to select a favourable ruler. Happened in South America, many parts of Africa, the Persian countries and even the late Queen stuck the knife into a lefty who got to be Australian PM in the 50s(i think) . Not that Australia can quite be lumped into the turmoil that some countries suffered. I'm sure they were all complicated affairs... but it's not just an "account" or an "opinion" on what was done, It's a matter of record.


The problem being that they are not facts, or matters of record. He implies that the breaking of looms and amputation of thumbs was a policy pursued by the British Empire. This is factually incorrect. These accusations were levelled at the East India Company. Even then many contemporary accounts doubted the veracity of the claims, including the French who at the time were very keen to point out any misdeeds by the company. As for the cutting of thumbs the truth is actually even more bizarre in that in reality some artisan silk weaver's actually cut off their own thumbs. The reason being that they didn't want to work in the silk factories being set up by the company, who sought to suppress production of silk outside their control. No contemporary accounts suggest that this cutting of thumbs was widespread, more a protest by relatively few individuals, there is no contemporary evidence that the company or it's officials ever engaged in the practice. listening to the video you would be forgiven for coming away with the impression that it was the British that cut off people's thumbs in great numbers, not the case at all. If you doubt the veracity of this then perhaps you would accept Gandhi himself as an authoritative source, and familiarise yourself with his comments on the subject. So a classic case of the gentleman in the video massaging the "facts" to support the argument he is making. Exactly the issue I was alluding to. So perhaps rather than making glib statements to the effect that you are sure that the "facts" quoted are verifiable you should ask yourself how you can possibly know that unless you have actually verified them.


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## Marc Shaw (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> The problem being that they are not facts, or matters of record. He implies that the breaking of looms and amputation of thumbs was a policy pursued by the British Empire. This is factually incorrect. These accusations were levelled at the East India Company. Even then many contemporary accounts doubted the veracity of the claims, including the French who at the time were very keen to point out any misdeeds by the company. As for the cutting of thumbs the truth is actually even more bizarre in that in reality some artisan silk weaver's actually cut off their own thumbs. The reason being that they didn't want to work in the silk factories being set up by the company, who sought to suppress production of silk outside their control. No contemporary accounts suggest that this cutting of thumbs was widespread, more a protest by relatively few individuals, there is no contemporary evidence that the company or it's officials ever engaged in the practice. listening to the video you would be forgiven for coming away with the impression that it was the British that cut off people's thumbs in great numbers, not the case at all. If you doubt the veracity of this then perhaps you would accept Gandhi himself as an authoritative source, and familiarise yourself with his comments on the subject. So a classic case of the gentleman in the video massaging the "facts" to support the argument he is making. Exactly the issue I was alluding to. So perhaps rather than making glib statements to the effect that you are sure that the "facts" quoted are verifiable you should ask yourself how you can possibly know that unless you have actually verified them.


So, you seize on a thumb... one point?


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

I should be clear that I don't seek to be an apologist for the excesses of empire. Merely to observe that there is more than enough material to work with without embellishment.
Another thing to be wary of is how nonsense can become accepted "fact" merely through repetition. An example, which you could argue is of no great consequence, but makes the point rather well, is the V1 flying bomb. Many people believe that these flew along until they ran out of fuel, whereupon the engine cut out and they fell to earth. This has been repeated so often, even by such eminent historians as Max Hastings and others, that it has become accepted " fact". The reality is that is is complete nonsense. They were actually controlled by an airflow powered odometer, once the present distance was reached a catch was released causing the tailplane to drop and sending it into a dive, which incidentally cut off the fuel supply to the engine.


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## Adam W. (22 Sep 2022)

Nice fact....Truly.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

Marc Shaw said:


> So, you seize on a thumb... one point?


So, having seen that one thing he says is wrong or exaggerated, you have no concerns at all about the veracity of his other statements?


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## Marc Shaw (22 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> So, having seen that one thing he says is wrong or exaggerated, you have no concerns at all about the veracity of his other statements?


Are you saying his figures are not true or the country didn't end up... buggered? "excesses " ... pfft!


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

I have no idea whether his other figures are true, I haven't researched it. Have you? If you haven't then how can you possibly know?


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

Noel said:


> Great books I agree. Series on Amazon excellent too


Not seen that. I always worry with these things that they may not live up to expectations, or you find yourself mystified by the casting. Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher for example. I shall have to have a look, thanks.


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## Fergie 307 (22 Sep 2022)

I find voiceovers can sometimes fall a bit flat as well. I remember watching the Narnia films with my children. Very disappointed with the voice of Aslan. I would have cast Brian Blessed. He has the sort of voice I can imagine a lion might have, and would have been Very good at any roaring required


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I am all for getting all sides of the story. The only way to really try and make a judgement. Unfortunately there are many, on both sides of any argument, who are prepared to accept any account that supports their own pre concieved views, as being necessarily truthful. Any account that contradicts it must therefore be, of course, a tissue of lies. In reality is is often very difficult to find any account that tells the absolute truth. Every writer is biased in some way, whether deliberately or otherwise and so may incluude or omit certain facts, statistics or whatever accotrdingly.


So what?
There is no such thing as absolute truth but many do aim to get at the best possible account of things.
What do you think of Howard Zinn's book? A People's History of the United States - Wikipedia
Or Black and British by David Olusoga review – reclaiming a lost past
The reviewer here thinks is is not radical enough and pulls it's punches.
Or The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists - Wikipedia just fiction?
Or
A.L. Morton - A People's History of England?








A.L. Morton - A People's History of England


A.L. Morton's A People's History of England is an extraordinarily readable Marxist history. Arthur Leslie Morton was a Communist Party activ...




resolutereader.blogspot.com


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## GweithdyDU (23 Sep 2022)

gregmcateer said:


> 1. I shouldn't have made such an assumption. When I was in Australia, 'mate' was a standard term of acknowledgement of another human. Clearly not where you live. Apologies, sir.
> 2. Yep


ha ha. Yes the informality of Aussie speech does sometimes seem at odds with Brits. That and the massive overuse of "awesome" make me chuckle and grimace in equal measures lol. I had an Aussie visitor that with a completely straight face said in a slow Aussie drawl, "there's more than one way of killing a cat than (_insert expletive related to procreation_) it to death". He couldn't understand why I was doubled up in hysterical laughter. G'day!


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## Fergie 307 (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> So what?
> There is no such thing as absolute truth but many do aim to get at the best possible account of things.
> What do you think of Howard Zinn's book? A People's History of the United States - Wikipedia
> Or Black and British by David Olusoga review – reclaiming a lost past
> ...


Jacob, you really rather make my point for me. The problem is that it is human nature to prefer an account of any subject which supports any pre conceived idea you may have. This should be guarded against. The next step is to then actually confine your "research" only to sources that you know are likely to reflect your own views, as you do. This is not a good way to get at the truth. It inevitably leads to a situation where you are prepared to discard or completely ignore certain information, not because you have any logical basis for doubting it, but because it doesn't fit your narrative. So you end up in a position where you seek out only that information which supports the position you already have, and unquestioningly believe it. Equally you risk becoming prepared to ignore, or dismiss as rubbish, anything that might cast your existing views into doubt. Mr Spock would not be impressed. Let me give you an analogy of the position taken by Marc as an example. Let us suppose that you have a meeting with a financial advisor regarding your pension arrangements. They recommend a number of investments for you to consider. You subsequently discover that one of their recommendations is a real lame duck, and if you were to put any money into it you would probably lose the lot. Do you then hand over your money to this person to put into the other investments they recommended, because they still sound really good, even though you haven't actually looked into them at all? Or do you perhaps think that if the advice they have given you in one case has turned out to be suspect, it might be prudent to look into their other recommendations in a bit more detail before believing them?


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## Noel (23 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Not seen that. I always worry with these things that they may not live up to expectations, or you find yourself mystified by the casting. Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher for example. I shall have to have a look, thanks.



Cruise wasn’t great but his replacement (cause Child wanted somebody taller) isn’t that good.
As for Bosch the series is very good and reflects Connelly’s books very well with Titus Welliver as Bosch. 4 series so far I think.


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## AJB Temple (23 Sep 2022)

I dipped into a couple of video links above. Dreadful presenter. Keeps lifting his right arm up in a little punching gesture, which is distracting, and he states things with excessive emphasis at the end of most sentences so all I hear is that, not what he is saying. He makes a lot of assertions not backed up by evidence. 

Hindu and Musli differences defy logic. In exactly the same way that Muslim and Christian ones do. Religions have different beliefs with Hindus favouring a polytheistic system that believes in cycles of rebirth....for which there is no evidence whatsoever. Muslims are monotheistic and follow sharia law (interpreted very widely in a multitude of different ways) and believe in a god....for which there is no evidence whatsoever. Christians believe in the same god ....for which there is no evidence whatsoever. All of these religious groups share one necessity: they must have _faith_ as that is the only alternative in the absence of evidence. All of the groups are somewhat controlled by religious leaders who perpetrate the faith stories and reinforce the differences between them. Then these groups fall out over whose entirely un-evidenced belief is best. 

Then we get news outlets analysing it, completely disregarding the made up and unproven elements of the faith concept. 

You couldn't make it up. Except we did.


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## AJB Temple (23 Sep 2022)

Quite often young men in shops call me mate. I am old enough to be at least their father. Usually I say "when did we become mates?" Sometimes I say "we are not mates - I am a customer". I realise that some people will regard this as arrogant or whatever, but I think we are very much in danger of levelling down in this country with respect to vocabulary, manners and behaviour.


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## Keith Cocker (23 Sep 2022)

AJB Temple said:


> I dipped into a couple of video links above. Dreadful presenter. Keeps lifting his right arm up in a little punching gesture, which is distracting, and he states things with excessive emphasis at the end of most sentences so all I hear is that, not what he is saying. He makes a lot of assertions not backed up by evidence.
> 
> Hindu and Musli differences defy logic. In exactly the same way that Muslim and Christian ones do. Religions have different beliefs with Hindus favouring a polytheistic system that believes in cycles of rebirth....for which there is no evidence whatsoever. Muslims are monotheistic and follow sharia law (interpreted very widely in a multitude of different ways) and believe in a god....for which there is no evidence whatsoever. Christians believe in the same god ....for which there is no evidence whatsoever. All of these religious groups share one necessity: they must have _faith_ as that is the only alternative in the absence of evidence. All of the groups are somewhat controlled by religious leaders who perpetrate the faith stories and reinforce the differences between them. Then these groups fall out over whose entirely un-evidenced belief is best.
> 
> ...


When I was younger I was pretty sure that religion was dying out. As I reach the latter stages of my existence I’m sorry to realise I was wrong.


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## Jameshow (23 Sep 2022)

gregmcateer said:


> 1. I shouldn't have made such an assumption. When I was in Australia, 'mate' was a standard term of acknowledgement of another human. Clearly not where you live. Apologies, sir.
> 2. Yep


It's all right love, you'll be fine love! 
Don't worry duck we all use different ways of describing a freind or not even a freind. 
I dropped my China plate off at the rub a dub last night....
So there you have it mush I've told you as it is butt....


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Jacob, you really rather make my point for me. The problem is that it is human nature to prefer an account of any subject which supports any pre conceived idea you may have. This should be guarded against. The next step is to then actually confine your "research" only to sources that you know are likely to reflect your own views, as you do. This is not a good way to get at the truth. It inevitably leads to a situation where you are prepared to discard or completely ignore certain information, not because you have any logical basis for doubting it, but because it doesn't fit your narrative. So you end up in a position where you seek out only that information which supports the position you already have, and unquestioningly believe it. Equally you risk becoming prepared to ignore, or dismiss as rubbish, anything that might cast your existing views into doubt. Mr Spock would not be impressed. Let me give you an analogy of the position taken by Marc as an example. Let us suppose that you have a meeting with a financial advisor regarding your pension arrangements. They recommend a number of investments for you to consider. You subsequently discover that one of their recommendations is a real lame duck, and if you were to put any money into it you would probably lose the lot. Do you then hand over your money to this person to put into the other investments they recommended, because they still sound really good, even though you haven't actually looked into them at all? Or do you perhaps think that if the advice they have given you in one case has turned out to be suspect, it might be prudent to look into their other recommendations in a bit more detail before believing them?


You seem to be saying that it is impossible to know anything.


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## Jameshow (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> You seem to be saying that it is impossible to know anything.


The irony! 
You said there is no such thing as absolute truth^^^^!


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## Phil Pascoe (23 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> I find voiceovers can sometimes fall a bit flat as well. I remember watching the Narnia films with my children. Very disappointed with the voice of Aslan. I would have cast Brian Blessed. He has the sort of voice I can imagine a lion might have, and would have been Very good at any roaring required


Narnia .......... my name for my Wife. The hair of a lion, the face of a witch and the body of a wardrobe.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> The irony!
> You said there is no such thing as absolute truth^^^^!


This thread is taking a very philosophical turn! 
The study of how we know things is called "epistemology" and a bit of googling could keep you going for some time.








epistemology | Definition, History, Types, Examples, Philosophers, & Facts


epistemology, the philosophical study of the nature, origin, and limits of human knowledge. The term is derived from the Greek epistēmē (“knowledge”) and logos (“reason”), and accordingly the field is sometimes referred to as the theory of knowledge. Epistemology has a long history within...



www.britannica.com


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## Fergie 307 (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> You seem to be saying that it is impossible to know anything.


Not at all. But all your quoted references tend to be from the red end of the spectrum, hardly balanced. And even verifiable facts can be presented in a misleading way. For example, if I say to you, "my neighbour passed his driving test thirty years ago, and has never had an accident". What impression forms in your mind as to his likely competence as a driver? What if I now say " of course thats hardly surprising, as he has never owned or driven a car since he passed the test". How has your view now changed? The first stement might be factually accurate, but presented without context or qualification, is actually potentially misleading.


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## Jacob (23 Sep 2022)

Fergie 307 said:


> Not at all. But all your quoted references tend to be from the red end of the spectrum, hardly balanced.


Surely you need alternative opinions and interpretations for balance? Not just from the Daily Mail, Telegraph, and the great un-woke.
And what is "balance" anyway? How would you know that you had achieved it?


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## Fergie 307 (23 Sep 2022)

Jacob said:


> Surely you need alternative opinions and interpretations for balance? Not just from the Daily Mail, Telegraph, and the great un-woke.
> And what is "balance" anyway? How would you know that you had achieved it?


I agee entirely, but do you pratice this? You are fond of quoting from the Guardian, when did you last read the torygraph? Incidentally I very rarely read newspapers, if your comment was intended to reflect your view of my likely reading material then you are quite wrong.


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## Fergie 307 (23 Sep 2022)

As to knowing if you have acieved balace, or more particularly whether you have got at the truth of an issue, sometimes it is very difficult to know. All you can do is weigh up all the information you can find and come to a conclusion based on the evidence available. But for this process to be worthwhile you have to embrace all sources, not just those that are agreeable to you.


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## PhilipL (3 Oct 2022)

A postscript. Top of Queensferry Street in Edinburgh was resurfaced just before the cortege arrived. Looked lovely. Today it has been ripped up again. I asked the workmen, why? They said they have to put the proper surface down for the bus lanes - they did a temporary job for the funeral. The cost! In a climate of food banks and fuel poverty and Truss promising more austerity.


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## Marc Shaw (3 Oct 2022)

PhilipL said:


> A postscript. Top of Queensferry Street in Edinburgh was resurfaced just before the cortege arrived. Looked lovely. Today it has been ripped up again. I asked the workmen, why? They said they have to put the proper surface down for the bus lanes - they did a temporary job for the funeral. The cost! In a climate of food banks and fuel poverty and Truss promising more austerity.


No expense spared in this dreadful country for the already wealthy. As we can now see.


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## D_W (3 Oct 2022)

PhilipL said:


> A postscript. Top of Queensferry Street in Edinburgh was resurfaced just before the cortege arrived. Looked lovely. Today it has been ripped up again. I asked the workmen, why? They said they have to put the proper surface down for the bus lanes - they did a temporary job for the funeral. The cost! In a climate of food banks and fuel poverty and Truss promising more austerity.



To lay down a temporary surface doesn't cost that much, at least not in the grand scale of things compared to paying people not to work. 

I'd suspect the measures to overregulate business and encourage them to operate and locate elsewhere has cost you a whole lot more than a temporary paving job. 

when they do temp paves here, which they often do if there is utility work, they're in and out in a day or so and the aggregate is stripped with relatively few man hours - some charge for equipment, I'm sure, but the aggregate torn up is sorted out by machine and reused. 

We, too, have far bigger cost giveaways than this, but we get the same news manufactured outrage about one offs that cost very little - convenient misdirection.


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## GweithdyDU (3 Oct 2022)

D_W said:


> To lay down a temporary surface doesn't cost that much, at least not in the grand scale of things compared to paying people not to work.
> 
> I'd suspect the measures to overregulate business and encourage them to operate and locate elsewhere has cost you a whole lot more than a temporary paving job.
> 
> ...


I hear what you're saying (writing) and it is one of the reasons for my approach to the issue of the current monarchy, (see earlier post/response above). However, in general terms, lots of small costs, make up a big cost overall, which is of course the current govt's approach to spending, 'save a bit here, pinch a bit there, make every penny of taxpayers money accountable and good value' and so on. Until of course it is the super-wealthy that have to make 'sacrifice' and no, I'm not a Labour voter and never have been. As a Neo-Marxist in favour of hereditary peerage and the monarchy (slightly 'tongue in cheek, but only slightly!) and for the dismantling of the Dis-United Kingdom, my politics are far too complex to slavishly follow any current party.


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## D_W (3 Oct 2022)

What's the share of the taxes paid by the wealthy there? It's the bulk here, both by percentage as well as nominally by far. 

most of the money spent by the government here is either for defense, infrastructure or or social benefits. 

And everyone screams that it doesn't benefit them. I'd love to see the defense spending cut, but wonder who else will pick up the bill and what cost we'd incur if it actually encouraged international disputes beyond just annexing a bit of ukraine temporarily. 

Looks like your top 1% paid 30% of the nominal taxes in the UK in the last several years. If you want to be really poor, you can encourage them to move overseas. 

I don't like being around overcompetitive wealthy piggish behavior people, but would rather they were paying taxes here (in the states) and creating corporate value in a stock market (that I can invest in) than to chide them. The real debt issues for us, and for you, are voting for money for ourselves. Not because we can't get enough out of rich people.


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## GweithdyDU (3 Oct 2022)

D_W said:


> creating corporate value in a stock market (that I can invest in) than to chide them. The real debt issues for us, and for you, are voting for money for ourselves. Not because we can't get enough out of rich people.


Hi. That's fine but what about the almost 3/4 of Dis-United Kingdom adults that don't invest? Investment is not an option for the majority of citizens. Trickle down has again and again been shown to not reduce inequality or make the poor better-off. The system here is broken (and seemingly in the US as well, but I'm no expert) and the current politics/policies of the so-called left are not so different that they will change the status-quo in any real meaningful way. So, here we are, two of the 'rich nations' and yet we have a huge disparity between the wealthy and the rich that leads to a situation where poor people in the Dis-United Kingdom are worse off than people in so-called poorer countries that were in the Former Soviet Union and some of the poorest folk in the Americas live in the US. Perhaps it is time for nations like the US and the Dis-UK to genuinely invest in people rather than seeing a few richer folk investing in stocks, bonds as the only answer to such inequity.


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## D_W (3 Oct 2022)

GweithdyDU said:


> Hi. That's fine but what about the almost 3/4 of Dis-United Kingdom adults that don't invest? Investment is not an option for the majority of citizens. Trickle down has again and again been shown to to reduce inequality or make the poor better-off. The system here is broken (and seemingly in the US as well, but I'm no expert) and the current politics/policies of the so-called left are so different that they will change the status-quo in any real meaningful way. So, here we are, two of the 'rich nations' and yet we have a huge disparity between the wealthy and the rich that leads to a situation where poor people in the Dis-United Kingdom are worse off than people in so-called poorer countries that were in the Former Soviet Union and some of the poorest folk in the Americas live in the US. Perhaps it is time for nations like the US and the Dis-UK to genuinely invest in people rather than seeing a few richer folk investing in stocks, bonds as the only answer to such inequity.



Do you really believe the poor are worse off than the poor in russia?

There's a matter of human nature that will always be a problem. I see it even in myself. I work more than I should have to, at least I feel like I do, and use little in public service because there is an incentive for me to do it. To be able to provide more for my kids and hopefully create a generational financial comfort that we haven't had in our family in the right way, and really until the last generation or two, at all. 

But if the government was willing to give me a baseline that was "just barely comfortable plus maybe a little more", I could very easily fall into doing that because I don't get a big personal thrill from having extra money. I seek having it to provide. Doing almost nothing and eating cheap food wouldn't be a real problem to me. 

Every level you seek to provide incentives for a large cross section of the poor, or I should say security without incentive, you will see a large increase in that group and the line where people are willing to drop into it goes up. The line is a double whammy - you remove productive members to being consumers and takers. 

This creates an addtional problem - let's call it the 83 IQ problem - the point where the US military won't take voluntary servers because it's difficult to find a task that they can do. People who are truly disabled or who are born with the 83IQ problem are now pooled in with a group of people who are taking what they should have. 

So, would this be so bad if you were to say, create a situation where everyone could work 2/3rds as much in the UK and have half as much (because you sure couldn't borrow if you don't have economic leverage to do it). I guess that's really up to everyone to decide- what would make you happy in life? I would be happier as an individual in that situation - I deal with boredom better than being overworked, but the day to day things we do here - like paying for my daughter's orthodontia last week, getting a car fixed timely, getting to the dr. timely several times a year and getting high quality care - those would be cut back. I don't need to take care of myself - at least I don't feel like it, but my kids, I have a higher standard for what they get, and my parents were the same way. 

So, let's assume everyone feels like me and we could cut back a good bit other than early life standards - who will pay the debt? Life will always be some kind of struggle. The real challenge is to codify taking care of the people who can't handle the struggle without allowing a bunch of other people to claim they can't. 

International competition becomes another problem for the rest - the very wealthy wield political influence for one reason - they can leave. If they leave, then the foundation that all of the social benefits are built on is gone. We are all levered against our future economic value (as countries) - if the ability to store monetary or economic value over time and stably goes away, we'll be back to bartering.


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## GweithdyDU (3 Oct 2022)

Who said anything about the poor in Russia???? I certainly didn't. However, Ukraine (current situation excepted), is a better place to be poor in and Estonia certainly is. Personally I think the US is one of the most awful places to be poor in with your very poor living in conditions many developing countries would not accept. Communism certainly doesn't provide the answers but then fundamentalist capitalism is even further away from providing solutions. We may just have to agree to disagree. Cheers


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## Jameshow (3 Oct 2022)

T


GweithdyDU said:


> Hi. That's fine but what about the almost 3/4 of Dis-United Kingdom adults that don't invest? Investment is not an option for the majority of citizens. Trickle down has again and again been shown to to reduce inequality or make the poor better-off. The system here is broken (and seemingly in the US as well, but I'm no expert) and the current politics/policies of the so-called left are so different that they will change the status-quo in any real meaningful way. So, here we are, two of the 'rich nations' and yet we have a huge disparity between the wealthy and the rich that leads to a situation where poor people in the Dis-United Kingdom are worse off than people in so-called poorer countries that were in the Former Soviet Union and some of the poorest folk in the Americas live in the US. Perhaps it is time for nations like the US and the Dis-UK to genuinely invest in people rather than seeing a few richer folk investing in stocks, bonds as the only answer to such inequity.


Think your missing a Not if I understand you?? 

Totally agree btw. 

We need jobs for all not just the brightest and best!


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## GweithdyDU (3 Oct 2022)

Jameshow said:


> T
> Think your missing a Not if I understand you??
> 
> Totally agree btw.
> ...


hahaha, You're quite right. I missed a 'not'. thanks


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## GweithdyDU (3 Oct 2022)

GweithdyDU said:


> hahaha, You're quite right. I missed a 'not'. thanks


Duly edited as there were two "not"s I'd missed out.


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## D_W (3 Oct 2022)

GweithdyDU said:


> Who said anything about the poor in Russia???? I certainly didn't. However, Ukraine (current situation excepted), is a better place to be poor in and Estonia certainly is. Personally I think the US is one of the most awful places to be poor in with your very poor living in conditions many developing countries would not accept. Communism certainly doesn't provide the answers but then fundamentalist capitalism is even further away from providing solutions. We may just have to agree to disagree. Cheers



I think if you're poor in the US, a lot of it has to do with location. If you're poor in a high crime area and you don't want to relocate because your entire family is there ,that's tough. 

If you're poor in a nice area, it's hard to argue that it's that bad. If you're poor in the US, especially if it's out of your control, you will receive:
* food assistance (possibly free)
* housing assistance (possibly free)
* utility assistance
* likely income on top of that
* probably the ability to get charity benefits, though charities will have more parameters than the government - as in, they may require you to do certain things
* health are under medicaid

What's tough in the us is being almost poor. Being poor may be boring and seem personally limiting. It could also be annoying if you live in a nice area with all kinds of opportunities to be economically involved or spending money. If you're on indigent benefits here, you'd better not be earning income or you'll get in trouble, and that makes it hard to be a spender, because the public benefits meet your needs and that's about it. 

Our spending just on medicare and medicaid (two public medical benefits - one for retirees and one for the poor, including long term care for the indigent) is about half of the size of the GDP of the entire UK ,and total spending is actually larger than the spending on private health insurance. Our total spending on state retirement or indigent benefits, income and welfare is about the size of the united kingdom (it's about $3T). 

But on one sense - there is some truth to what you say - I wouldn't want to be truly poor in ultra rural or high crime areas. 

There is no fundamentalist capitalism in the US. There hasn't been for at least 80 years.


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## D_W (3 Oct 2022)

I think there's probably a lot of TV program fantasy about people living in appalachia or whatever, especially by the BBC. Same as the fat man programs or redneck programs that you guys get that don't really look like much of america. There's some notion that this is an ultra capitalist society and it's way off the mark - not the least comparing medical spending - more public medical spending in the US than there is with private insurance, and private insurance buoys the the social programs by paying much more per patient and making it financially feasible for docs and medical systems to take social payment. The US society is kind of a poorly organized social state with a core regulated barrier to entry capitalist economy. Small business is that terrible here, though, but going from small to large is tough unless you're doing something really unique. The regulatory barriers are pretty harsh if you are more than relatively small.


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## PhilipL (3 Oct 2022)

And you should see the potholes in Edinburgh. I moved here about 15 months ago and could not believe the state of most roads. No money, I suppose is the argument for failure to repair. Yet they can do it for 40 seconds of travel (to St Giles and back). Jeez. What a country.


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## Jameshow (3 Oct 2022)

indigent new word to me!!


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## D_W (3 Oct 2022)

Jameshow said:


> indigent new word to me!!


I don't know if it's still a word in use here - like everywhere else, once you can identify people with a word, we change the word. 

But the care homes here, and there are many (often called county homes, because the county authorities run them), are often called "homes for the elderly and indigent". 

State institutions also housed some of the indigent, but it's much less common for people to get committed these days unless they're an imminent threat to themselves or someone else, or they need to go through a relatively difficult course of mental treatment that needs to be supervised to be safe.


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## D_W (3 Oct 2022)

PhilipL said:


> And you should see the potholes in Edinburgh. I moved here about 15 months ago and could not believe the state of most roads. No money, I suppose is the argument for failure to repair. Yet they can do it for 40 seconds of travel (to St Giles and back). Jeez. What a country.



the roads are bad here, too - some of the issue is that we add to the roads but rarely eliminate them, even when they aren't economically useful like they used to be. 

Population in my region has stayed the same or declined, but new neighborhoods are built and we never close the older roads - it's obviously not that easy to do it. 

So the roads suffer - especially during the winter when freezing and thawing breaks them apart. 

Road outside my house has been paved 3 times in the 16 years I"ve been here. Not sure how much more often they could do it, but it does settle and move with the freezing and thawing. 

If they paved a thoroughfare in DC here for a state funeral, though, it wouldn't even cross my mind that it was a big deal.


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## PhilipL (4 Oct 2022)

They paved it for a quickly passing cortege. Then repaved it again. They could have used a different route (in past Haymarket) and saved money.


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## Phill05 (4 Oct 2022)

Why moan you will never see it used like that again it has finished.


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## PhilipL (4 Oct 2022)

Phill05 said:


> Why moan you will never see it used like that again it has finished.


?? Don't understand. Anyway I am the conscience of the Scots taxpayer.


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## Phill05 (4 Oct 2022)

"?? Don't understand. Anyway I am the conscience of the Scots taxpayer."
what is there you don't understand , the cortege will never pass your way again!! so they will not repave for another funeral they have repaved now back to a normal road it is done so why have a moan it is done and nothing you or me can do about it. in Derbyshire we have loads of pothole they get done as they can afford it, it does me no good moaning on about it I can't change it and the same goes for you, you cannot change anything just get on with life.


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## artie (4 Oct 2022)

Phill05 said:


> "?? Don't understand. Anyway I am the conscience of the Scots taxpayer."
> what is there you don't understand , the cortege will never pass your way again!! so they will not repave for another funeral they have repaved now back to a normal road it is done so why have a moan it is done and nothing you or me can do about it. in Derbyshire we have loads of pothole they get done as they can afford it, it does me no good moaning on about it I can't change it and the same goes for you, you cannot change anything just get on with life.


You can't if you don't try.


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## D_W (4 Oct 2022)

How long is the length of road that they paved?


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## Phill05 (4 Oct 2022)

You show me how to change something that has already happened and I will give it a try.


Edit word change:


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## PhilipL (4 Oct 2022)

D_W said:


> How long is the length of road that they paved?



From the end of Melville Street up to the start of Princes Street. 200m?







Cost seems to be between £50 and £100 a m2. See How Much Does It Cost To Resurface A Road? | Swift Surfacing


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## D_W (4 Oct 2022)

All of this hand wringing over several hundred thousand pounds of quick paving - and the money would've gone to people working. 

I don't get it. It's fighting over a penny sized spot on the front walk and ignoring a house on fire.


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## PhilipL (5 Oct 2022)

D_W said:


> All of this hand wringing over several hundred thousand pounds of quick paving - and the money would've gone to people working.
> 
> I don't get it. It's fighting over a penny sized spot on the front walk and ignoring a house on fire.



Watch the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.


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## D_W (5 Oct 2022)

PhilipL said:


> Watch the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.



I think this is a good personal concept. For governments, I think it goes more Like "get the citizens to watch the pennies so you can spend the pounds while they're not looking.


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## Lefley (5 Oct 2022)

Phill05 said:


> "?? Don't understand. Anyway I am the conscience of the Scots taxpayer."
> what is there you don't understand , the cortege will never pass your way again!! so they will not repave for another funeral they have repaved now back to a normal road it is done so why have a moan it is done and nothing you or me can do about it. in Derbyshire we have loads of pothole they get done as they can afford it, it does me no good moaning on about it I can't change it and the same goes for you, you cannot change anything just get on with life.


See there is why we don’t get stuff done . Us Canadians are bad for it. We sit back and don’t complain. If you all got together, made enough noise, got newspaper radio on it. Had a sit in or something. Your pot holes and road would be top of list to be paved to shut you up. We have become a very complacent society. Politicians put out fires that’s it! Make a fire!


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## Droogs (5 Oct 2022)

PhilipL said:


> And you should see the potholes in Edinburgh. I moved here about 15 months ago and could not believe the state of most roads. No money, I suppose is the argument for failure to repair. Yet they can do it for 40 seconds of travel (to St Giles and back). Jeez. What a country.


You don't even know the half of it mate, try living at the bottom of leith walk and its been like that for 5 years because of the effing tram that no-one here wants. I moved back here after cycling from Marakesh to Aberdeen the long way round visiting all sorts of places in between via Egypt & E Europe etc not once did I have a puncture or problem. Within 6 weeks of getting here I replaced 5 tubes, 2 tyres and a wheel. ECC spent £4.2m last year on repairs to damage caused by potholes to bikes and cars.


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## PhilipL (5 Oct 2022)

Droogs said:


> You don't even know the half of it mate, try living at the bottom of leith walk and its been like that for 5 years because of the effing tram that no-one here wants. I moved back here after cycling from Marakesh to Aberdeen the long way round visiting all sorts of places in between via Egypt & E Europe etc not once did I have a puncture or problem. Within 6 weeks of getting here I replaced 5 tubes, 2 tyres and a wheel. ECC spent £4.2m last year on repairs to damage caused by potholes to bikes and cars.



I look forward to the tram running down there. No idea why it has taken so long, but you'll forget that soon enough. The Raeburn to Leith cycleway will soon be in operation, too. Get cars out of the city centre, I say! We went down to one and may get rid of the second. It sits unused most of the time.


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## Sideways (6 Oct 2022)

This thread has run it's course.
Thanks all.


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