# Wall plate sourcing?



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Hi, I need to replace a 5m x 240mm x 100mm wall plate on a 150yr old outbuilding (stone walls slate roof). Any thoughts on sourcing such a beast, or alternative ways to skin this cat? I’m in West Yorkshire if anyone knows any suppliers. Google draws a blank! Cheers.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (12 Dec 2021)

I think you're in danger of way over-engineering it.

Is the existing timber softwood or hardwood?

I'd be tempted to use treated sawn carcassing timber, two or three pieces of 4 X 2 on edge, bolted together from the inside with a few coach bolts perhaps just skew-nailed. I think it would be worth sitting the timber on a bit of DPM and probably painting it. I'd use the same 4 X 2 to replace the rafters.


----------



## Woody2Shoes (12 Dec 2021)

PS you'd need to anchor the wall plate to the wall too - with reasonably stout galvanised steelwork.


----------



## eribaMotters (12 Dec 2021)

I'm guessing the open span on the large doorway is about 2.5m. I'd be considering a steel with tanilised timber plate on top to build the roof off.

Colin


----------



## Adam W. (12 Dec 2021)

Get a bit of unseasoned oak, larch or douglas milled up and bed it on with lime. Don't forget to fix the roof to keep it dry.


----------



## Daniel2 (12 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Get a bit of unseasoned oak, larch or douglas milled up and bed it on with lime. Don't forget to fix the roof to keep it dry.



You beat me to it.  
It will be far more sympathetic to the building.


----------



## Jones (12 Dec 2021)

Standard wall plate is 75 x100 mm treated and widely available. If you need a lintel use steel under the wall plate or a timber lintel. You can get treated sleepers at 2.4 or 3.0 m in 125 x 300 mm from garden centers or builders merchant


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> I think you're in danger of way over-engineering it.
> 
> Is the existing timber softwood or hardwood?
> 
> I'd be tempted to use treated sawn carcassing timber, two or three pieces of 4 X 2 on edge, bolted together from the inside with a few coach bolts perhaps just skew-nailed. I think it would be worth sitting the timber on a bit of DPM and probably painting it. I'd use the same 4 X 2 to replace the rafters.


I know nothing about wall plates, or roofs. The measurements I gave are of the one I’m replacing. I assumed I’d have to replace like for like?


----------



## Adam W. (12 Dec 2021)

Like for like will be fine.


----------



## Jameshow (12 Dec 2021)

KevinLycett said:


> I know nothing about wall plates, or roofs. The measurements I gave are of the one I’m replacing. I assumed I’d have to replace like for like?


Is it really 5m width?? 
Looks less? 
Where abouts are you in West Yorkshire?

There are places locally who machine local timber larch oak etc. 

Cheers James


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Is it really 5m width??
> Looks less?
> Where abouts are you in West Yorkshire?
> 
> ...


5m long, 240mm wide, 100mm deep. Leeds.


----------



## Jones (12 Dec 2021)

A wall plate doesn't need any strength as it is fully supported either by cement bed or studs if it's timber frame. The wall plate needs to be fixed down to stop it being pushed off the wall, either use bent straps nailed to it and then screwed to wall or use frame fixings down into the wall. 3x4" is the standard as it is the same size as a brick wall and gives a good fixing for nails. There's no need to copy the original 4x10".


----------



## Jameshow (12 Dec 2021)

That's very wide normally a wall plate rests on the inner left of the cavity wall? 

200x 100 would be much cheaper as would 4.8m? 

In in Baildon btw. 

Cheers James


----------



## Adam W. (12 Dec 2021)

You'll probably find that the wall plate in this case is acting to support the roof over the opening. This is neither brickwork or a cavity wall, so modern construction methods don't apply.


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> You'll probably find that the wall plate in this case is acting to support the roof over the opening. This is neither brickwork or a cavity wall, so modern construction methods don't apply.


So should it be full width of stone wall I.e 240mm or is a narrower width as others suggest OK?


----------



## Adam W. (12 Dec 2021)

Normally they are pretty wide, 8"+ is not uncommon and the ends of the rafters sit across the whole width.

Is there also a purlin supporting the rafters and spanning across the building at half height ?


----------



## Jameshow (12 Dec 2021)

Narrower will be fine 200mm would be more than adequate.

Somewhere like dragon reclamation or Leeds wood recycling might have something reasonably priced? 

Cheers James


----------



## Jones (12 Dec 2021)

The birds mouth on the rafter will typically be 50-70 mm for a low pitch roof like that so there's really no point having a wide wall plate if you're only bearing on part of it.


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Jones said:


> Standard wall plate is 75 x100 mm treated and widely available. If you need a lintel use steel under the wall plate or a timber lintel. You can get treated sleepers at 2.4 or 3.0 m in 125 x 300 mm from garden centers or builders merchant


There is only the one timber (which I’m referring to as the wall plate) so maybe it’s both acting as a wall plate and a lintel for the two doors?


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Normally they are pretty wide, 8"+ is not uncommon and the ends of the rafters sit across the whole width.
> 
> Is there also a purlin supporting the rafters and spanning across the building at half height ?


There’s this massive timber at halfway (looking from doorway to back of building), is that a purlin?


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Narrower will be fine 200mm would be more than adequate.
> 
> Somewhere like dragon reclamation or Leeds wood recycling might have something reasonably priced?
> 
> Cheers James


I’m in Leeds so that’s very helpful, thanks


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Get a bit of unseasoned oak, larch or douglas milled up and bed it on with lime. Don't forget to fix the roof to keep it dry.


Yes the wall plate is just the start, but don’t know how to source such a huge thing, or if it’s even necessary to be that big.


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Is it really 5m width??
> Looks less?
> Where abouts are you in West Yorkshire?
> 
> ...


I’m I’m Leeds


----------



## Jones (12 Dec 2021)

KevinLycett said:


> There is only the one timber (which I’m referring to as the wall plate) so maybe it’s both acting as a wall plate and a lintel for the two doors?


If one piece is being both wall plate and lintel over the openings then the size needed will depend on the pitch of the roof, span of the openings, spacing of purlins and expected imposed (snow) load. You can look at part A (structure) of the building regs ,it's available free online at gov.org . I think a 75 X 225 mm treated should do you which should be available up to 5.4 m ,if not use a half lap joint on the bit over the wall. The lintel/wall plate and any purlins should be vertical with the rafters notched over them. Your roof does have quite a shallow pitch which would now be considered too shallow for slate make sure you have a good felt and ideally boarding under to stop it leaking. Welsh slate have good info on their website. Just seen the photo of inside and pitch doesn't look as low in that, 25 degrees and over is ok.


----------



## KevinLycett (12 Dec 2021)

Jones said:


> If one piece is being both wall plate and lintel over the openings then the size needed will depend on the pitch of the roof, span of the openings, spacing of purlins and expected imposed (snow) load. You can look at part A (structure) of the building regs ,it's available free online at gov.org . I think a 75 X 225 mm treated should do you which should be available up to 5.4 m ,if not use a half lap joint on the bit over the wall. The lintel/wall plate and any purlins should be vertical with the rafters notched over them. Your roof does have quite a shallow pitch which would now be considered too shallow for slate make sure you have a good felt and ideally boarding under to stop it leaking. Welsh slate have good info on their website.


That’s really helpful, thanks. Any ideas where to source a timber like that? (I’m in Leeds)


----------



## Dave Moore (13 Dec 2021)

KevinLycett said:


> Hi, I need to replace a 5m x 240mm x 100mm wall plate on a 150yr old outbuilding (stone walls slate roof). Any thoughts on sourcing such a beast, or alternative ways to skin this cat? I’m in West Yorkshire if anyone knows any suppliers. Google draws a blank! Cheers.View attachment 124020


Hi,
If you mean a beam is required any steel supplier will have one or similar size and will cut to length and deliver for you..
Regards,
Dave


----------



## Jameshow (13 Dec 2021)

Try Manningham timber or Arnold lavers? 

If you draw a blank I have a contact at outdoor classrooms in pudsey but he doesn't sell to the public. 

Cheers James


----------



## LeeAkeroyd (13 Dec 2021)

KevinLycett said:


> 5m long, 240mm wide, 100mm deep. Leeds.



Have you tried Kirkstall Timber?


----------



## Adam W. (13 Dec 2021)

KevinLycett said:


> There’s this massive timber at halfway (looking from doorway to back of building), is that a purlin?


That's the one, it's supporting the rafters at half height and if it's in good condition, you're in luck.



KevinLycett said:


> Yes the wall plate is just the start, but don’t know how to source such a huge thing, or if it’s even necessary to be that big.


If it's as I said and supporting the roof over the opening, then yes it would need to be that big and it's working in conjunction with the purlin to keep the roof from falling on your head.

You have a choice really. If it's your shed and you want to keep it looking authentic, then get a piece of green oak from a sawmill and stick it in. Most sawmills will mill a piece of oak that big and when you enquire, tell them its spanning two openings and they'll get you a piece of oak which is good for structural work. If you don't tell them that, they'll give you any old oak, but it'll probably be good enough. They will also deliver it for you.

As it's a shed, not a house, don't get in a twist over building regs, as it's not necessarry. Like for like is good enough, but before you go any further, take a look at the ends of the rafters that were sitting on the plate and post a picture.

If they are rotten, youll need to put new rafters on between the purlin and the wall plate, but it's all very simple so no need to worry about it or follow any complicated instructions. It's basic roofing and you can do it yourself if you can use a hammer and a saw.


----------



## Adam W. (13 Dec 2021)

Oh, I forgot.

If you make the wall plate any bigger or smaller, then you'll have to screw around with the purlin as it will change the geometry of the roof.....and you probably don't want to do that.


----------



## Stevekane (13 Dec 2021)

Your very lucky having a building like that and Im sure its well worth spending a bit of time on it, the big bit of Oak would be my choice but if you go down that route you will need a mate to help you lift it,,,it surprised me just how heavy a smallish oak beam was.
Steve.


----------



## Jones (13 Dec 2021)

Any builders or timber merchant should be able to do you a treated softwood in the size you need, do check the span tables in regs part A to make sure it's ok or bigger. Old buildings particularly sheds may not have timber sizes that would be considered good enough now . Green oak has considerable self weight which means you'll have to use a bigger piece than dry softwood and have a lot of fun lifting it up. You can expect to pay around £50 for a 9x3" softwood treated at 20 ft certainly a lot cheaper than oak.


----------



## Adam W. (13 Dec 2021)

Jones said:


> Any builders or timber merchant should be able to do you a treated softwood in the size you need, do check the span tables in regs part A to make sure it's ok or bigger. Old buildings particularly sheds may not have timber sizes that would be considered good enough now . Green oak has considerable self weight which means you'll have to use a bigger piece than dry softwood and have a lot of fun lifting it up. You can expect to pay around £50 for a 9x3" softwood treated at 20 ft certainly a lot cheaper than oak.




Adherence to the building regulations is unnecessary in this case, as it's a like for like repair.

The reason why the original timber structure failed is due to decay from the faliure of the roof covering and the ingress of water, not because of undersized and ungraded timber. If the original timber had been kept dry and free from decay and still be holding the roof up, proving its size was sufficient. There is very little load acting on the plate at the foot of the rafters due to the oversized purlin holding it all up, which is why it's still standing.

As for positioning, just slide it up on 2" inclined bearers, it's an easy job for one man.


----------



## Jameshow (13 Dec 2021)

Jones said:


> If one piece is being both wall plate and lintel over the openings then the size needed will depend on the pitch of the roof, span of the openings, spacing of purlins and expected imposed (snow) load. You can look at part A (structure) of the building regs ,it's available free online at gov.org . I think a 75 X 225 mm treated should do you which should be available up to 5.4 m ,if not use a half lap joint on the bit over the wall. The lintel/wall plate and any purlins should be vertical with the rafters notched over them. Your roof does have quite a shallow pitch which would now be considered too shallow for slate make sure you have a good felt and ideally boarding under to stop it leaking. Welsh slate have good info on their website. Just seen the photo of inside and pitch doesn't look as low in that, 25 degrees and over is ok.


I'd do100mm as it's the depth that's most important esp over the wide door. 

Defo go for oak. I had a piece from bingley - turn right opposite the brown cow pub. Old guy, not sure he's still working? Ravenroyd farm I've msg them. 

Also Keighley tree services will machine it too. 

Cheers James


----------



## Jones (13 Dec 2021)

No need for building regs approval as you say, but it's wise to do a repair that's structurally sound . So doing the job to regs is sensible. In that age/ type of building it's likely that the roof timbers are softwood so replacement with like seems in keeping and economical


----------



## Daniel2 (13 Dec 2021)

Stevekane said:


> Your very lucky having a building like that and Im sure its well worth spending a bit of time on it, the big bit of Oak would be my choice but if you go down that route you will need a mate to help you lift it,,,it surprised me just how heavy a smallish oak beam was.
> Steve.



Especially when it's green.
But, still worth it and perfectly feasible.
Certainly would be my choice for that building.


----------



## Jameshow (13 Dec 2021)

Stevekane said:


> Your very lucky having a building like that and Im sure its well worth spending a bit of time on it, the big bit of Oak would be my choice but if you go down that route you will need a mate to help you lift it,,,it surprised me just how heavy a smallish oak beam was.
> Steve.


Shout if you need a hand!! Or a van to transport it!


----------



## Woody2Shoes (13 Dec 2021)

I think that the existing timbers look like softwood - arguably oak would be overkill (although it won't need treating and looks beautiful). Interesting that the rafters look as if they're pairs of 4 X 2. You haven't told us what the existing timbers are - it does have some bearing (pun intended!).

The crucial dimension for this wall plate (which also serves as two lintels by the looks of it) is the vertical height - resistance to vertical deflection under the weight of the roof - esp. in the centre of the doorway - is the key issue. Any horizontal width >= 100mm would be fine, subject to it being properly anchored to the walls.

If you do go for a larger overall section, you can always split it - on the vertical axis - into two pieces bolted/nailed together to make handling/lifting easier (and possibly reduce the timber cost into the bargain).


----------



## KevinLycett (16 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Oh, I forgot.
> 
> If you make the wall plate any bigger or smaller, then you'll have to screw around with the purlin as it will change the geometry of the roof.....and you probably don't want to do that.


Wow, that’s very reassuring. Thanks. Most of the timbers are pretty shot so it’s probably gonna be a strip back to the purlin which thankfully looks sound.


----------



## KevinLycett (16 Dec 2021)

Jameshow said:


> Shout if you need a hand!! Or a van to transport it!


Wow thank you I will!


----------



## Adam W. (16 Dec 2021)

Woody2Shoes said:


> I think that the existing timbers look like softwood - arguably oak would be overkill (although it won't need treating and looks beautiful). Interesting that the rafters look as if they're pairs of 4 X 2. You haven't told us what the existing timbers are - it does have some bearing (pun intended!).
> 
> The crucial dimension for this wall plate (which also serves as two lintels by the looks of it) is the vertical height - resistance to vertical deflection under the weight of the roof - esp. in the centre of the doorway - is the key issue. Any horizontal width >= 100mm would be fine, subject to it being properly anchored to the walls.
> 
> If you do go for a larger overall section, you can always split it - on the vertical axis - into two pieces bolted/nailed together to make handling/lifting easier (and possibly reduce the timber cost into the bargain).


You're right. It's normal for the wall plate to be softwood, but generally green oak is easier to source than large scots pine sections.

That's why I suggested oak first. I may have got the dimensions mixed up, but I still recommend replacing like for like, whatever it is.


----------



## KevinLycett (17 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Oh, I forgot.
> 
> If you make the wall plate any bigger or smaller, then you'll have to screw around with the purlin as it will change the geometry of the roof.....and you probably don't want to do that.


Thats very helpful, so that seems as I thought, exact like for like is pretty essential.


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

Pretty much.

It should be an easy replacement and you can use that acro prop you have to lift all the ends of the rafters clear at the same time, so that you can slide the new wall plate into place. 

I'd recomend repairing the wall at the right too. You can use folding wedges to straighten the masonry up and pull them out once the mortar is set and repair the holes. Or just cut them off flush, which is what I do with timber frame repairs if they are not too deep.


----------



## KevinLycett (17 Dec 2021)

Folding wedges sounds genius. I was thinking I’d have to dismantle and rebuild where the mortar had washed out. What exactly are folding wedges? I mean do you make them, or buy them…? Also I’m assuming I need to use lime mortar?


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

I make mine out of 1" oak, as that's what I have lots of. They are just one wedge on top of another to give you a very accurate and strong jacking effect. I like them to taper 1 1/2" over 8" or so, so that they are not too steep. If the joint is wide, I just chop the thin ends off to give me a bit more thickness to start off with and gently knock them in.

You can just wedge it all up and put the timber in, then point it all up with a bit of lime mortar in the spring when the risk of frost has passed.


----------



## KevinLycett (17 Dec 2021)

Thanks again for your advice. I was quite daunted by this job but its starting to look do-able!


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

It's very straight forward, just take a deep breath and dive in.

Clear your site and take your time. If you need more help just ask, as it's the kind of work I've been doing for years.

I'll see if I can find the photo where I jack the roof up to repair the wall.


----------



## Adam W. (17 Dec 2021)

Here you go...

I just prop the ends of the beams on this one and lift the roof off so that I can get the whole wall out to repair it.









The wall had been forced out of plumb when the old truss collapsed, so I renewed the trusses and shoved the wall back into position to straighten the house up.












It's back on the ground and there's just the brickwork to do before I started on the right hand side. That took a bit more fixing and I used needles to lift the whole wall plate off the posts to get the wall out and repair it.

I've done this all the way around the building, doing a section each summer. There's one little bit to go, but I'm leaving that so that I can take it out when I put the staircase in, as the post timber is quite large.


----------



## KevinLycett (17 Dec 2021)

Adam W. said:


> Here you go...
> 
> I just prop the ends of the beams on this one and lift the roof off so that I can get the whole wall out to repair it.
> 
> ...


Amazing


----------

