# Choosing Chisels



## James C (19 Dec 2011)

Hey Guys,

I'm new to the forum and seeking some advice about buying some chisels. I have spent some time looking at Ashley Iles Bevel Edged Cabinetmakers, Narex 8116 Cabinetmakers and Narex 8105 Bevel Edged Chisels.

I have around £150 to spend and for that I could get a set of 6 AI, a set of 12 Narex Cabinetmakers or a set of 17 Narex Bevel Edged Chisels. Obviously a set of 17 might be a bit too much to start but a set of 6 at £70 leaves with £80 for other purchases  

Then again I'd be just as happy to buy three LN at £47 a pop, I know you should buy the best you can afford and I want to have chisels that I'm not going to replace in 10 years time, but are they really worth the difference?

I want chisels that could be used for some basic paring but could also be used to make dovetails if lightly hit with a mallet. (hammer) 

Cheers,

James

p.s. I know someone will probably ask what I'm using them for. I have acquired some nice Oak boards which I'm going to use to make some small items from, before working my way up to some larger furniture.


----------



## RogerP (19 Dec 2011)

I have some Narex Cabinetmakers chisels and they seem as good as any others in my small collection. The handles may not be so pretty but they're nice to use and the blades take and retain an edge just as well as the Sorby, LN and Iles I also have.


----------



## Modernist (19 Dec 2011)

Don't buy anything made of A2 steel. Personally I use AI's which are quite fine for hand work and take a clout if necessary e.g dovetails but for serious malleting you would be better with something a bit heavier.


----------



## Dodge (19 Dec 2011)

+1 for Narex 



No doubt if Jacob reads this he will disagree albeit he has never owned or used or used them! See other thread #-o (hammer)


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2011)

Dodge":yzg84usr said:


> +1 for Narex
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt if Jacob reads this he will disagree albeit he has never owned or used or used them! See other thread #-o (hammer)


I'm sure they would be OK, after all most chisels are. Very few are unusable. In any case the sharpening is far more important than the quality of the chisel.
It's just that Narex have become the latest fashion and I always distrust fashions - here today and gone tomorrow. Remember A2 steel? Nobody wants it now. Woodworker's fashions change faster than hemlines!
I'd advise our OP to get any old chisels - just 3 or 4 different ones to start, and worry more about sharpening as a priority.
6 is a lot. Sets of 12 or 17 are really OTT :roll: nobody really needs that many.


----------



## RogerP (19 Dec 2011)

> I'd advise our OP to get any old chisels - just 3 or 4 different ones to start, and worry more about sharpening as a priority.
> 6 is a lot. Sets of 12 or 17 are really OTT :roll: nobody really needs that many.
> 
> cheers
> Jacob



We mustn't start confusing "needs" with "wants" otherwise we lose all the fun :wink: 

I have a lot more than 17 chisels/gouges but only because I can't resist 50p boxwood handled jobbies at car-boots. I reckon half-a-dozen spanning ¼" to 1¼" is about right for the average user. Narex are fine and aren't expensive but if you can get up early car-boots is the way to go.


----------



## James C (19 Dec 2011)

I do have one or two old non-descript sheffield steel chisels including a 3/4 bevel edged and a 1" firmer chisel which are quite good. The main issue is finding a good way to regrind the primary bevels as the 3/4 b/e is at 40 deg and the firmer at 45deg #-o 

I don't have access to anything that can do serious grinding even though I have put a really good sharp edge on my Jack Plane using WH's Scary Sharp adhesives.

I still want to have some new chisels as well, hence this thread, a nice decent set of 6 would suit me fine.

Don't worry I will still keep picking up older stuff and restoring where I can.

Has anyone got the LN O1's?


----------



## Fat ferret (19 Dec 2011)

Another vote for car boot sale/ebay chisels  . Anything with cast steel on it seems to be particularly good. These can be made really sharp and hold their edges well.


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2011)

James C":137zpbyy said:


> I do have one or two old non-descript sheffield steel chisels including a 3/4 bevel edged and a 1" firmer chisel which are quite good. The main issue is finding a good way to regrind the primary bevels as the 3/4 b/e is at 40 deg and the firmer at 45deg #-o
> 
> I don't have access to anything that can do serious grinding


Belt sander is best. Angle grinder? Coarse sanding disc on a drill? Otherwise it's 60 grit wet n dry (wet). Bench grinders are cheap and very versatile. 
You only have to do it once, if you keep them in good nick.


> I still want to have some new chisels as well, hence this thread, a nice decent set of 6 would suit me fine.
> 
> Don't worry I will still keep picking up older stuff and restoring where I can.
> 
> Has anyone got the LN O1's?


LNs are ludicrously expensive. For the price of one you could buy some good sharpening kit, which is more important than the chisels.


----------



## Dodge (19 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3n4lyhm1 said:


> LNs are ludicrously expensive. For the price of one you could buy some good sharpening kit, which is more important than the chisels.



My God, let me just sit down before I say this - "I have got to agree with Jacob" #-o 

No seriously you can take a Lie Nielsen out of the box and use it straight away, but if you cannot sharpen it properly when its blunt you might as well have saved a couple of hundred quid and bout a Faithful

First and most important lesson - Learn how to sharpen your tools properly, buy the appropriate equipment to sharpen tools - Then buy the tools that need to be kept sharp.

And remember the old saying "If you can see the edge - It isn't there!!!!" think about it


----------



## James C (19 Dec 2011)

> Belt sander is best. Angle grinder? Coarse sanding disc on a drill? Otherwise it's 60 grit wet n dry (wet). Bench grinders are cheap and very versatile.
> You only have to do it once, if you keep them in good nick.



What kind of Belt Sander is ideal to use? The only thing close to Belt Sander is the Band Facer at the school were I work but it's a woodwork room with large multi-machine extraction system and I have heard enough horror stories about wood dust fires to be a bit cautious about using it to do grinding.


----------



## James C (19 Dec 2011)

Dodge":3cebgsmc said:


> Jacob":3cebgsmc said:
> 
> 
> > LNs are ludicrously expensive. For the price of one you could buy some good sharpening kit, which is more important than the chisels.
> ...



The issue is that I lack the equipment to regrind incorrect primary bevels. All of my attempts at sharpening good bevels and honing secondary bevels etc. have been pretty satisfactory.


----------



## James C (19 Dec 2011)

James C":1pgx3mor said:


> What kind of Belt Sander is ideal to use? The only thing close to Belt Sander is the Band Facer at the school were I work but it's a woodwork room with large multi-machine extraction system and I have heard enough horror stories about wood dust fires to be a bit cautious about using it to do grinding.



I managed to find an example of what I'm talking about 





http://www.technologysupplies.co.uk/Deer-Bandfacer-1ph-on-pedestal


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2011)

Any old ordinary belt sander will do. But yes you have to watch out for the sparks. Blow out any wood dust first.
Bench grinders are cheaper but not as good.
Or go up-market for a Sorby Pro-edge.
All methods depend on a good bit of practice to get right. Non of them are like a pencil sharpener where you just stick it in and pull it out sharp.


----------



## Racers (19 Dec 2011)

Hi, James

Another vote for Cast Steel Chisels I have collected a set mostly from car boots and Ebay. I have yet to find a duff one.




But I use a set of modern Stanley/Marples for any thing out side of the workshop, So get a set of Narex and look out for Cast Steel chisels.

And decide on a sharpening system and stick with it even if you don't get good results at first.

Pete


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2011)

Dodge":2yns11am said:


> .....
> First and most important lesson - Learn how to sharpen your tools properly, buy the appropriate equipment to sharpen tools - Then buy the tools that need to be kept sharp.......


Before tools and sharpening comes WOOD. And the design, project, whatever it is. 
This detail tends to get neglected in all the tooly chatter and noise!


----------



## Paul Chapman (19 Dec 2011)

James C":2ch9es3t said:


> The issue is that I lack the equipment to regrind incorrect primary bevels.



Here's a quick and easy way to do it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yogRewlM ... plpp_video

Cheers :ho2 

Paul


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2011)

Paul Chapman":15gh8wg3 said:


> James C":15gh8wg3 said:
> 
> 
> > The issue is that I lack the equipment to regrind incorrect primary bevels.
> ...


quick and easy :lol: :lol: Look at all that kit! You'd need a big tidy table.


----------



## James C (19 Dec 2011)

I think after the outlay for granite block, and all the rolls of adhesive glass paper you would end up needing that looks pretty expensive. I mean he used 6 sheets to sharpen one chisel. Seems to take quite a long time as well, I enjoyed the cut from slightly dirty paper to dark grey paper.

Anyway I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a set of 6 Cabinetmakers Chisels either Narex or Ashley Iles to get me started off on the projects I want to do.
*Don't worry I'm still going to be building a nice collection of quality older Chisels*


----------



## Modernist (19 Dec 2011)

Paul Chapman":3aiej27y said:


> James C":3aiej27y said:
> 
> 
> > The issue is that I lack the equipment to regrind incorrect primary bevels.
> ...



I love the shot of the crumbled A2 chisel :twisted: :lol:


----------



## Jacob (19 Dec 2011)

James C":1d0c9isg said:


> ....
> *Don't worry I'm still going to be building a nice collection of quality older Chisels*


OK got that no need to shout! 
I'd go for Ashley Iles if you must have new. :roll: Not a "set" though, just a few of the most important ones. If you get a set some will be redundant and some you need will be missing, but you won't know until you've been at it for a bit..


----------



## Paul Chapman (19 Dec 2011)

James C":1ak483wb said:


> the outlay for granite block



You don't have to use a granite block, just something flat - some MDF would do. And if you have some abrasive paper knocking about in the shed, it wouldn't cost you much at all. Just a stop-gap method which you might find helpful until you have something better......

Cheers :ho2 

Paul


----------



## RogerP (19 Dec 2011)

Wet 'n Dry used wet lasts MUCH longer


----------



## James C (20 Dec 2011)

I happen to have a large roll of wet n dry lying around at P120 so will give that a whirl. I also discovered a couple of sheets of float glass about 1/4" thick in the metal work cupboard at school yesterday so that will get some use.

If I get the AI I will end up with 4 I need for £100 so it would be tempting to get the set at £130 and get two extra. 

I'm guessing this is how tool lust beings.


----------



## nanowire (20 Dec 2011)

I find a wide bevel edged chisel (30+ mm) very handy on many occasions . Other than that you obviously need chisels that are narrow enough to reach in to what ever you are doing but there is no need (as far as my limited experience tells) for precise fits, i.e. a smaller size usually works just fine. The exception would be for mortising chisels where a precise fit, up to 1/2" at least, is helpful. Also later, when the older quality chisels inevitably start to accumulate in the workshop, it can be nice to have some duplicates with different bevel angles for sizes you use often.


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2011)

James C":a4t2qwbj said:


> I...
> 
> If I get the AI I will end up with 4 I need for £100 so it would be tempting to get the set at £130 and get two extra.
> 
> .....


"A set" is just a way the cunning barstewards trick you into buying more chisels than you really need. 
Just say no! Buy some wood instead.


----------



## Dee J (20 Dec 2011)

"The issue is that I lack the equipment to regrind incorrect primary bevels."
There are so many grinding devices out there - new and s/h - for only a fraction of your chisel budget - with the capability of grinding the primary bevel. Wet, dry, motorised and human powered. My own favourite - a vertical axis treadle one like this picture I just found on google: http://www.davebudd.com/IA_knife_web_12.jpg cost £6 at a car-boot. Human power machines mean you can make mistakes slower that motorised machines! Just work slowly and keep the blade cool. Even a flat scythe-stone used wet will do the job.

Dee


----------



## xy mosian (20 Dec 2011)

Dee J":3jab2wbj said:


> "The issue is that I lack the equipment to regrind incorrect primary bevels."
> There are so many grinding devices out there - new and s/h - for only a fraction of your chisel budget - with the capability of grinding the primary bevel. Wet, dry, motorised and human powered. My own favourite - a vertical axis treadle one like this picture I just found on google: http://www.davebudd.com/IA_knife_web_12.jpg cost £6 at a car-boot. Human power machines mean you can make mistakes slower that motorised machines! Just work slowly and keep the blade cool. Even a flat scythe-stone used wet will do the job.
> 
> Dee



Ah yes the Heyden Allball Treadle Grinder  My first 'powered' grinder, porridge powered, apparantly built up around a recirculating ball steering rack. I still have it. My woodworking environment is not permanent and the fact that it is easily stacked away is great. I seem to think it was only £12 new.

xy


----------



## Dee J (20 Dec 2011)

[/quote]

Ah yes the Heyden Allball Treadle Grinder  My first 'powered' grinder, porridge powered, apparantly built up around a recirculating ball steering rack. I still have it. My woodworking environment is not permanent and the fact that it is easily stacked away is great. I seem to think it was only £12 new.

xy[/quote]
Thanks - for naming it - never realised it was so complicated inside http://treadleit.info/Heyden%20Grinder a brilliant piece of kit.

Dee


----------



## xy mosian (20 Dec 2011)

Thanks for the link I hadn't seen that page before. I wrote to the manufacturers asking if they had other similar machines, sadly they didn't. They did say that the grinder was not aimed at woodworkers but farmers initially, to use where power was not available. 

xy


----------



## jimi43 (20 Dec 2011)

With a budget of £130 I could get over a hundred quality cast steel chisels from when men were men and steel didn't crumble, a Creusen grinder and a new set of Scary Sharp from WSH.....and still have enough left to have tea at the Ritz....

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Jim


----------



## woodbloke (20 Dec 2011)

jimi43":19g4vj9k said:


> With a budget of £130 I could get over a hundred quality cast steel chisels from when men were men and steel didn't crumble, a Creusen grinder and a new set of Scary Sharp from WSH.....and still have enough left to have tea at the Ritz....
> 
> :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
> 
> Jim


Now that Jim, is stretching the bounds of the budget just a smidge...'specially the last little bit. Tea at the Ritz :-k :-" Rob


----------



## Harbo (20 Dec 2011)

Nah somebody has a tea stall at the Kent car boot called Ritz! 

Rod


----------



## jimi43 (20 Dec 2011)

woodbloke":2okmr60t said:


> jimi43":2okmr60t said:
> 
> 
> > With a budget of £130 I could get over a hundred quality cast steel chisels from when men were men and steel didn't crumble, a Creusen grinder and a new set of Scary Sharp from WSH.....and still have enough left to have tea at the Ritz....
> ...



AH! Well apart from the "Tea at the Ritz...."....make that Lyons Corner House then....but this lot...no more than £50...(most of that being invested in the Oriental pair!)







Creusen grinder you know already....£20....






So not stretching anything really...you just have to shop around... :mrgreen: 

Seriously though....if you go for the cleaner older stuff with nice boxwood and other hardwood handles and you don't get ones with too much pitting near the slicing end....you can get a few bargains.

Jim


----------



## jimi43 (20 Dec 2011)

Harbo":3ra100bc said:


> Nah somebody has a tea stall at the Kent car boot called Ritz!
> 
> Rod



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

=D>


----------



## bobbybirds (20 Dec 2011)

Modernist":1kg2oih9 said:


> Don't buy anything made of A2 steel. Personally I use AI's which are quite fine for hand work and take a clout if necessary e.g dovetails but for serious malleting you would be better with something a bit heavier.



I personally have no issue with A2 steel chisels... I use a primary bevel of 30 degrees with a micro-bevel a few degrees steeper and I beat he living tar chopping in hard maple, oak etc and have no issues with crumbling. I sharpen using using waterstones in 1000/4000/8000 grits and strop on horsehide with green compound every now and again while working...


----------



## woodbloke (20 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":lr0311lu said:


> I personally have no issue with A2 steel chisels... I use a primary bevel of 30 degrees with a micro-bevel a few degrees steeper and I beat he living tar chopping in hard maple, oak etc and have no issues with crumbling. I sharpen using using waterstones in 1000/4000/8000 grits and strop on horsehide with green compound every now and again while working...


The edge won't crumble at a few degrees over 30 (say 33 or even 35deg) but try them with a working honed bevel of 30 (as you would with a normal 01 chisel) and you'll see a different result...the edge *will* crumble - Rob


----------



## bobbybirds (20 Dec 2011)

woodbloke":35gfp900 said:


> bobbybirds":35gfp900 said:
> 
> 
> > I personally have no issue with A2 steel chisels... I use a primary bevel of 30 degrees with a micro-bevel a few degrees steeper and I beat he living tar chopping in hard maple, oak etc and have no issues with crumbling. I sharpen using using waterstones in 1000/4000/8000 grits and strop on horsehide with green compound every now and again while working...
> ...



Oh for sure the will if you don't use a steep enough bevel, hence why I micro bevel a bit further. I find the edge retention excellent on my A2's and now find I sharpen less often than with my older O1's. To each their own of course...


----------



## Alf (20 Dec 2011)

woodbloke":1daj9x11 said:


> bobbybirds":1daj9x11 said:
> 
> 
> > I personally have no issue with A2 steel chisels... I use a primary bevel of 30 degrees with a micro-bevel a few degrees steeper and I beat he living tar chopping in hard maple, oak etc and have no issues with crumbling. I sharpen using using waterstones in 1000/4000/8000 grits and strop on horsehide with green compound every now and again while working...
> ...


Yus, but Rob, that's like complaining that a highly figured timber tears out when your plane iron is set to deal with straight-grained pine. You want a lower bevel angle, you don't willingly choose A2 - but complaining about it only holding an edge with a higher angle is akin to objecting to the fact a pig's tail curls. (And I'm painfully aware I've made this point before, so I apologise to those who took it on board the first time.) Now, if you'd been complaining about it when certain manufacturers were offering nothing but A2 and claiming it was the solution to life the universe and everything, then yeah, I agree _that's_ a legitimate point.

You know, s'funny but despite complaining about A2 as a choice for chisels (a lot), I never had any troubles with my LN A2s either. Really only bought the O1s 'cos I'd been nagging about them for so long, it would have been churlish not to. That's my story and I'm sticking to it... (And yes, I _am_ a registered chisel addict. And a socket chisel addict, a tanged chisel addict, a paring chisel addict, a don't-think-I-have-that-chisel-in-that-size addict etc etc)

Anyway, to the OP - any chance of being able to get any of these chisels in your hot little hands before you buy? Because we can discuss this 'til we're all blue in the face, but the greatest chisel in the world is no good if it doesn't suit _you_.


----------



## Jacob (20 Dec 2011)

Alf":2vareilh said:


> .....but the greatest chisel in the world is no good if it doesn't suit _you_.


It's more a question of suiting the chisel to the work. 
If it'll do the work it should suit you too, or you are in the wrong game! 
They aren't made to measure, or in colours to match your hair/eyes/wallpaper etc. it's not as though you are marrying the things. :roll:


----------



## studders (20 Dec 2011)

So you're quite happy to ride any size, make, configuration of Bike?


----------



## studders (20 Dec 2011)

Yawn. :roll: 

There... saved you the bother.


----------



## kygaloot (21 Dec 2011)

James, 

An opinion from the other side of the pond.....you live in chisel heaven! Modern manufacturers have yet to equal the steel used in vintage Sheffield cast steel chisels. Even the no-name ones that I have (usually just stamped Sheffield Cast Steel) are better than any modern western chisel that I have used. 

From what I have read, you can purchase a bench grinder, some cool running grinding wheels, and a dozen vintage Sheffield chisels and have quite a few pounds left over compared to buying LN's, Ashley Isles, or Henry Taylors. As others have mentioned, you are going to need some method of maintaining the chisels anyway, and the grinder comes in handy for other tasks around the shop.

Jeff


----------



## Jacob (21 Dec 2011)

studders":1wdbs8d4 said:


> So you're quite happy to ride any size, make, configuration of Bike?


Not a good analogy. The difference between say a LN and a Stanley fat max, same size, are so little that it really wouldn't make any difference to the job in hand whichever you used. They are effectively identical (almost). Then consider crumbly A2 steel, dropping off handles, high cost, and the fatmax is obviously much better value in terms of usability, without a shadow of doubt.
The differences are largely cosmetic.
So you are out on a time trial etc and your Boardman carbon fibre collapses and all you can get your hands on is a heavy old shopper - you are up sh|t creek!


----------



## matthewwh (21 Dec 2011)

kygaloot":1m7y0pps said:


> James,
> Modern manufacturers have yet to equal the steel used in vintage Sheffield cast steel chisels.
> Jeff



Hi Jeff,

You have a commonly held misconception. 

Given 100 years of advances in metallurgical science, computerised furnaces that manage temperature to a fraction of a degree and the ability to analyse chemical composition to hundredths of a %, can you genuinely believe that the steel industry of 2012 is producing inferior products to the industry of 1912?

What you are comparing is chisels that have been properly hardened by a metalworker with ones that have been hardened by an accountant in the 1970's (big tie - annoyingly cheerful - you know the type). Thanks to the wonders of mechanisation, the 70's accountant's decision to invest in inaccurate, inconsistent induction hardening technology (and thereby achieve lower unit costs and get his bonus) lasted long enough to establish the opinion quoted above.

Throughout this period the steel industry and the making things that harden steel industries have largely ignored the 70's accountant and decided to continue to advance independently of him. We are therefore thankfully able to slip back into the evolutionary process in pretty much the same spot that we would have been in had the accountant never existed should we choose to do so. 

Although becoming rarer, accountant's chisels can still be found in sets of six for £2.99 (if you haggle hard enough they will probably pay you to take them away). I would however suggest that comparing them to a properly made 1912 chisel that would have cost a weeks wages when new, is scant evidence for a sweeping 'all old chisels are better than all new chisels' summary.

Whilst I've got my expounding plank out - all steel is cast. The mark began as a means of separating steel purified in a crucible from that which hadn't been. Once the process had become ubiquitous, the mark became irrelevant and they stopped putting it on.


----------



## jimi43 (21 Dec 2011)

I don't agree that steel made by accurate machines from formulae created by lab boffins are necessarily "better" Matthew, and I tend to side with Jeff here.

On _*paper*_ the metal should be better for the job but in practice there are a number of surrounding issues...the "touchy feely" issues when a human encounters something "made" that don't make it just a simple subject of science.

If we were to deduce that "modern metallurgy" > "old traditional metalworking"...where do we put Japanese laminated steel?

If we add price or value elements into the mix I think that old Sheffield wins hands down...and is certainly a great route for a new enthusiast to take. Even if they finally gain enough personal knowledge to buy the best that the West or East can produce...they will learn a lot along the way...not the least of which will be restoration, care and sharpening techniques.

I am not in any sense an old traditionalist....after all....why would I put one of your fine QS T10 steel irons in my 100+ year old panel infill if I were......







Rather I consider my woodworking to be based on value born of lack of funds....a route I would recommend to anyone! :wink: 

Jim


----------



## kygaloot (21 Dec 2011)

Hello Matthew,

I do not take the position that I stated just because I believe that older is necessarily better, nor do I know the details of manufacturing then or now. (And you know what I mean by "cast steel", i.e. the _era_ in which it was stamped on the chisel.) What I do know is how the steel behaves on the stone and on wood. I have experienced the space age steels manufactured in what others have described as very sophisticated technological environments. While some of them are good, and certainly better than the dreck produced in the 1970's, it is my opinion as a user, that there is still something missing. I do not know what it is. With my Butcher, Charles Taylor, Ward, older Marples, and Sorby chisels, the steel feels "buttery", very fine grained, takes an edge easily and retains it for a long, long, long time. The only relatively modern western chisels that come close to these are those made in Eskilstuna, Sweden. However, they tend to be rarer and hence more expensive. 

So, with all of those wonderful old Sheffield chisels laying about in boot sales at such low prices, why not buy a great tool at a great price, and own a piece of English history? Of course, I understand that it does not help the guy who sells new chisels...... 

Jeff


----------



## nanowire (21 Dec 2011)

kygaloot":2ien84ov said:


> Hello Matthew,
> 
> I do not take the position that I stated just because I believe that older is necessarily better, nor do I know the details of manufacturing then or now. (And you know what I mean by "cast steel", i.e. the _era_ in which it was stamped on the chisel.) What I do know is how the steel behaves on the stone and on wood. I have experienced the space age steels manufactured in what others have described as very sophisticated technological environments. While some of them are good, and certainly better than the dreck produced in the 1970's, it is my opinion as a user, that there is still something missing. I do not know what it is. With my Butcher, Charles Taylor, Ward, older Marples, and Sorby chisels, the steel feels "buttery", very fine grained, takes an edge easily and retains it for a long, long, long time. The only relatively modern western chisels that come close to these are those made in Eskilstuna, Sweden. However, they tend to be rarer and hence more expensive.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately neither CI Fall(not totally sure) or Bahco produce chisels in Eskilstuna any longer.

Regarding steel quality there are ways to achieve high levels of precision and quality even without computerized environments. I've eg. read somewhere that the Berg factory used liquid baths of lead (or alloys there of) to quickly get to the correct temperature when hardening. I am no metallurgist though, but I would guess that it is not allowed any more and that it might also be to expansive...


----------



## kygaloot (21 Dec 2011)

Nanowire,

Just to clarify, I was not talking about any contemporary Swedish makers, but Berg, Janport, Gensco, etc. 

Jeff


----------



## matthewwh (21 Dec 2011)

kygaloot":3476rxy1 said:


> Hello Matthew,
> With my Butcher, Charles Taylor, Ward, older Marples, and Sorby chisels, the steel feels "buttery", very fine grained, takes an edge easily and retains it for a long, long, long time.
> Jeff



What a pleasure it is to work with people who recognise and appreciate good workmanship - it is the forging of the steel to compact and refine the grain structure then heat treating it to balance on the metaphorical knife edge between toughness and hardness that produces the qualities that you so eloquently describe above, all of which is the craft of the Blacksmith.

My point is merely that the assertion that we cannot make the raw material as well as we could then - which would imply that it is now impossible to make tools of this quality, is inaccurate. 

The Smiths of old would have given their eye teeth for the quality and consistency of raw material that we have today. The thing that has become a bit thin on the ground is their skills to work and heat treat it correctly. Thankfully they have been passed down through apprenticeship and are still being practiced, as anyone who has ever sharpened a Clifton plane iron or Ashley Iles chisel will attest. 

I should also point out that I am only referring to pure carbon steels - which I much prefer for the reasons Jeff describes above.


----------



## bobbybirds (21 Dec 2011)

I still would not part with my A2 steel Blue Spruce chisels at gunpoint. For sure they are not in the same price range as vintage premium chisels, but when the vintage premium chisels were new, I would point out that their cost vs the money one made in those days were not a lot different than their premium counterparts today, and I kind of like knowing that one day 100 years from now, there is a good chance that my chisels today will be some lucky persons bargain garage sale find, and they will talk about how great tools were "back in the day" and that people are crazy to spend money on new tools while there are such great vintage deals out there...


----------



## kygaloot (21 Dec 2011)

matthewwh":1rlasobb said:


> My point is merely that the assertion that we cannot make the raw material as well as we could then - which would imply that it is now impossible to make tools of this quality, is inaccurate. The Smiths of old would have given their eye teeth for the quality and consistency of raw material that we have today. The thing that has become a bit thin on the ground is their skills to work and heat treat it correctly. Thankfully they have been passed down through apprenticeship and are still being practiced, as anyone who has ever sharpened a Clifton plane iron or Ashley Iles chisel will attest.



This is quite a valid point regarding the raw material that one begins with. It is the process downstream where one wonders if some of what we today call "core competency" was lost when the accountants were running the show. I know that a very similar phenomena has occurred in the industry with which I have experience. Great investments were made in CAD/CAM, CNC machine tools, fixtures and inspection equipment, with the thinking that these would replace the machinist with 30 years of experience. In some respects, there were significant improvements in quality and productivity but something was very definitely lost. When something was amiss, no one knew how to solve the problem. Potholes that the experienced craftsman knew to avoid were re-discovered but without the knowledge as to how to solve the problem. No doubt we can certainly improve upon what has gone before; however, I believe that there is an element of craftsmanship involved that can't be replaced with technology, though improved technology can be of great benefit. 

Jeff


----------



## Vann (22 Dec 2011)

bobbybirds":36p8whzu said:


> ...and I kind of like knowing that one day 100 years from now, there is a good chance that my chisels today will be some lucky persons bargain garage sale find, and they will talk about how great tools were "back in the day"...


Not a chance ! Your chisels will be worthless in 100 years time....as the only wood left will be on/in the trees in your local tree zoo. :mrgreen: 

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## nanowire (22 Dec 2011)

kygaloot":y5y6sbiu said:


> Nanowire,
> 
> Just to clarify, I was not talking about any contemporary Swedish makers, but Berg, Janport, Gensco, etc.
> 
> Jeff


OK, I see. I am all with you then since Berg, Rosenfors and Jernbolaget (all Eskilstuna chisels) are the only ones i use 

My other point was basically the same that matthewwh later made; that even though the raw material might have been comparable rarer and more expensive, knowledgeable labor wasn't and they surely knew what to do with that steel...


----------



## David111s (22 Dec 2011)

Hello,

Just thought I'd add my thoughts on chisel choices.

I have a set of LN A2 which hold a razor edge perfectly! I use this set for chopping really fine joints, for day to day trimming, paring ect I have a few Ashley Iles mk1s and mk2s which hold a great edge and for the price are fantastic particularly the new Mk2 design! I also use a selection of old English chisels and have ground some of these to use as skews. For rare site work I've got a set of traffic light Marples bevel edged chisels which are pretty horrid!

So my vote is for Ashley Iles mk2 chisels! 

Regards

David


----------



## Alf (22 Dec 2011)

Vann":ko2re8zs said:


> bobbybirds":ko2re8zs said:
> 
> 
> > ...and I kind of like knowing that one day 100 years from now, there is a good chance that my chisels today will be some lucky persons bargain garage sale find, and they will talk about how great tools were "back in the day"...
> ...


Unless they have wooden handles - which'll presumably make them priceless. :wink:


----------



## jimi43 (22 Dec 2011)

Alf":liqi212x said:


> Vann":liqi212x said:
> 
> 
> > bobbybirds":liqi212x said:
> ...



I'm passing my ziron-encrusted tweezers down to my grand children for precisely the same reason! :wink: :mrgreen: :deer 

Jim


----------



## James C (22 Dec 2011)

Right come new year I will be picking up three Ashley Iles in the sizes I need *(I did listen Jacob)* and then checking ebay/bootsales for Sheffield bargains.

My perfect setup would be to have a number of Sheffield Vintage type chisels for chopping and general use and a the AI's set to a fine degree for perfect paring.

I managed to get the pedestal mounted grinding wheel working in my school, so that problem is solved albeit it temporarily. That should leave some money left over for some other stuff, not sure exactly what yet.


----------



## jimi43 (22 Dec 2011)

James C":aqhdksc6 said:


> Right come new year I will be picking up three Ashley Iles in the sizes I need *(I did listen Jacob)* and then checking ebay/bootsales for Sheffield bargains.
> 
> My perfect setup would be to have a number of Sheffield Vintage type chisels for chopping and general use and a the AI's set to a fine degree for perfect paring.
> 
> I managed to get the pedestal mounted grinding wheel working in my school, so that problem is solved albeit it temporarily. That should leave some money left over for some other stuff, not sure exactly what yet.



Brilliant conclusion!

One thing I would try...get a decent wheel for that manual wheel...it makes all the difference!

Jim


----------



## James C (23 Dec 2011)

Actually it's a fully fledged 415V grinding wheel with a coarse grit wheel and medium grit wheel. I was skeptical about getting it up and running for primary bevels as I was worried about getting the hollow grind due to the fact that you sharpen on the outside of the circumference of the wheel.

I've only used these to grind down HSS bar into Lathe cutters for turning MS and Ali, how much is the hollow grinding on a radius going to effect my chisels?


----------



## jimi43 (23 Dec 2011)

Just be careful not to overheat the edge...you would be better using a slow speed model or water-cooled one.

Or just use wet and dry!

Jim


----------



## Jacob (23 Dec 2011)

These are on offer from Axminster. They are cheap and ugly and the bevel edges are a bit chunky. But the set I got had very flat faces (just slightly concave over the whole length: perfect) and they take a good edge. These are ideal for a beginner (woodworker that is, not tool collector!) 
Spend it on wood instead!


----------



## JakeS (23 Dec 2011)

James C":sc03sy0b said:


> I was worried about getting the hollow grind due to the fact that you sharpen on the outside of the circumference of the wheel.



Sorry to jump in with a different question, but this is something I've wondered for a while. (I don't have a grinding wheel myself, as of yet; it's been on my 'maybe' list for a long while.) Is the reason you sharpen on the outside of the rim of the wheel just because that's the convenient place to put the rest and the guard, or is there some other reason why it's not a good idea to sharpen on the side of the wheel? All the wheels I've seen have a large surface on the side as well, after all. Too easy to put a skew on the end by accident? Maybe something to do with wear patterns on the wheel itself?


----------



## James C (23 Dec 2011)

When I was trained on how to grind HSS I was told that you shouldn't grind on the side of the wheel because if you do it towards the front you could ruin its square edge at the front or even worse if you do it further back you can cut in on the wheel and weaken it. I've heard all sorts of grinder related horror stories of people pushing hard into the front and the wheel, weakened on both side, shatters flinging large chunks of wheel into the user and all over the shop.


----------



## RogerP (23 Dec 2011)

JakeS":31khr8zp said:


> James C":31khr8zp said:
> 
> 
> > ....... or is there some other reason why it's not a good idea to sharpen on the side of the wheel? All the wheels I've seen have a large surface on the side as well, after all.


... because most grinding wheels are not designed to take pressure on the side and may shatter ... with disastrous results.


----------



## JakeS (23 Dec 2011)

James C":1c0732za said:


> I've heard all sorts of grinder related horror stories of people pushing hard into the front and the wheel, weakened on both side, shatters flinging large chunks of wheel into the user and all over the shop.



That sounds like a pretty good reason!


----------



## MickCheese (23 Dec 2011)

James C":3l94gotz said:


> Actually it's a fully fledged 415V grinding wheel with a coarse grit wheel and medium grit wheel. I was skeptical about getting it up and running for primary bevels as I was worried about getting the hollow grind due to the fact that you sharpen on the outside of the circumference of the wheel.
> 
> I've only used these to grind down HSS bar into Lathe cutters for turning MS and Ali, how much is the hollow grinding on a radius going to effect my chisels?



Can I suggest either getting a set of Jacob's Axminster chisels or some cheapies from eBay and using those to practice sharpening with. You may be surprised and find they are actually quite useable.

I would not want to attack a precious purchase with a grinding wheel as a first attempt.

Mick


----------



## James C (23 Dec 2011)

I'm not going to be putting precious purchases against the grinding wheel as I won't need to regrind the primary bevels. I will only be honing them.

The grinding wheel is for regrinding the primary bevels on some older chisels that need to be sorted out. Not to mention the multitude of chisels at school that I need to get reground and sharpened.

I have around 100 bevel edged chisels in a mixture of sizes most falling into 1, 3/4, 1/2 or 1/4" sizes. Plenty of opportunity to practice. They are all Stanleys, older versions of the ones in this picture 






I also have a bunch of Mortice chisels (around 40 in varying sizes) some of which are quite old marples.

I'm not going to hone them though as kids are only using them for chopping and paring of B&Q rubbish wood for their joints and frames to get BTec Construction certificate.


----------



## MickCheese (24 Dec 2011)

James C":2y6zp25w said:


> I'm not going to be putting precious purchases against the grinding wheel as I won't need to regrind the primary bevels. I will only be honing them.
> 
> The grinding wheel is for regrinding the primary bevels on some older chisels that need to be sorted out. Not to mention the multitude of chisels at school that I need to get reground and sharpened.
> 
> ...



You need to look here:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/did-anyone-on-here-buy-the-stanley-chisels-on-ebay-t56666.html

Those old Stanley's are worth saving.

Mick


----------



## awkwood (24 Dec 2011)

I have just been reading a toolmail catalogue from the early 1980's
Stanley 5001 chisels were a top quality chisel at the time made from top quality forged alloy steel.
They cost £41.74 for a set of six compared to £28.60 for a set of top of the range footprint chisels
Compare this to other top quality tools of the time eg. a 12" nonpareil tenon saw £30.41 and a Elu mof 96 router at £98.57. It seems they were never cheap, but high quality craftsmans tools at the time.


----------



## James C (24 Dec 2011)

Once I have got them all looking better I'll post some picks of the whole set. They look similar but would appreciate finding out if they are something else as I have no idea of the age.


----------



## Max Power (24 Dec 2011)

Post me a set out James and I shall evaluate them for you :mrgreen:


----------



## Jacob (24 Dec 2011)

awkwood":eci9qkwm said:


> I have just been reading a toolmail catalogue from the early 1980's
> Stanley 5001 chisels were a top quality chisel at the time made from top quality forged alloy steel.
> They cost £41.74 for a set of six compared to £28.60 for a set of top of the range footprint chisels
> Compare this to other top quality tools of the time eg. a 12" nonpareil tenon saw £30.41 and a Elu mof 96 router at £98.57. It seems they were never cheap, but high quality craftsmans tools at the time.


I bought some way back then, basically because they were out of stock of the blue handled ones. Both are good (I've still got them) but the 5001s are harder. But take longer to sharpen. 6 of one, half doz the other.

PS £41.74 for a set of six in 1980 or thereabouts is about £70 each now. They were the best then, and there is nothing to say that they aren't as good as LN, LV now.
PPS No that £70 seems unlikely. House prices have gone up more than 10x since 1980 but chisel prices probably haven't.


----------



## andy king (26 Dec 2011)

Jacob":3pizj58f said:


> I bought some way back then, basically because they were out of stock of the blue handled ones. Both are good (I've still got them) but the 5001s are harder. But take longer to sharpen. 6 of one, half doz the other.
> 
> PS £41.74 for a set of six in 1980 or thereabouts is about £70 each now. They were the best then, and there is nothing to say that they aren't as good as LN, LV now.



So using that logic, the 'overpriced/overhyped' Lie Nielsens at around £48 each (along with other 'premium' chisels) seem to be a bit of a bargain! :lol: :lol: :lol: 
How come buying premium back then is seemingly fine by you, but not for those who want to do the same today? :roll: 
The same could be said for saws, and many other hand tools.
As I recall, I paid about £20 each for two American Disstons in 1977 for example, and that was from a tool shop that heavily discounted, so equal, if not way more expensive than premium saws available today.

Andy


----------



## Jacob (26 Dec 2011)

andy king":3kd58459 said:


> ...
> So using that logic, the overpriced/overhyped Lie Nielsens at around £48 each (along with other 'premium' chisels) seem to be a bit of a bargain! ..


What logic? There are plenty of good quality cheaper alternatives. LN weren't available in 1980. I bought a few 5001s because that's all they had in the shop. I wanted the cheaper ones.


----------



## andy king (26 Dec 2011)

Jacob":aln4gj5w said:


> LN weren't available in 1980. I bought a few 5001s because that's all they had in the shop. I wanted the cheaper ones.


Yes, but by that comment, you paid top dollar back then, equal to around £70 per chisel by your calculation, and now, 30+ years later you still rate them.
Whether you wanted cheaper or not, by owning the top end ones available at that time and still endorsing them now, you obviously realise that the better end of the market has value to those that want to pay for it, if not you would surely have sold them on at the first opportunity and bought the cheaper ones available at that time.
So why berate anyone who is essentially doing the same thing, buying a premium brand that they will likely still be using in 30 years time, be it saw, plane or chisel?
Of course LN etc wasn't available then, but for the trade, the most likely choices for the top end area would be the black handles Stanleys or Marples Splitproofs, or for the bench joiner, usually Marples boxwood handles as the highest priced and premium rated, followed by Marples 'Bluechip' the blue handles Stanleys or Marples ash handled versions as the next best thing.


----------



## Harbo (26 Dec 2011)

Jacob have you actually tried the cheapo Axminster chisels or is this another judgement based solely on price?
Speaking as somebody who has 5001's, 5002's and LN's, they are different as chalk and cheese - your Stanley's being the cheese!

Rod


----------



## Jacob (26 Dec 2011)

Harbo":2ne0v7vn said:


> Jacob have you actually tried the cheapo Axminster chisels or is this another judgement based solely on price?
> Speaking as somebody who has 5001's, 5002's and LN's, they are different as chalk and cheese - your Stanley's being the cheese!
> 
> Rod


Yes of course I've have tried them, I wouldn't stick my neck otherwise! I wanted bigger sized chisels (32, 38) for a one off project so I bought these. They were more expensive then - I should have waited for the sale!
They are very unattractive but perfectly functional.
Chisels are simple things.* They'd have to be really bad to be unusable.

PS *The tooly would-be-gurus put a lot of effort into trying to persuade us that many things are not simple, in fact difficult, or subtly technical in mysterious ways. You get them all burbling about Rockwell numbers or bevel angles, but basically it's all an attempt to blind us with science!


----------



## andy king (26 Dec 2011)

Harbo":10035dvc said:


> Jacob have you actually tried the cheapo Axminster chisels or is this another judgement based solely on price?
> Speaking as somebody who has 5001's, 5002's and LN's, they are different as chalk and cheese - your Stanley's being the cheese!
> 
> Rod



Hi Rod,

I used them about 3 years back and they are fine as chisels go, hard enough steel to hold an edge, but pretty crude - they look more like a firmer chisel that has had a fight with a grinder rather than a true bevel edged one with the fine lands that is associated with the better ones.
There's the rub, definitely.
The finish on the blades is nothing spectacular, the handles a bit flaky with raised seams on the moulding (at least on the set i tested) but that side of things could be filed back.
For a set of 'bashers' they are fine, but as you of course know and appreciate, premium chisels are way better in the finish on the steel itself, the overall quality, and so forth, and that means more work to be done at the manufacturing process, which relates to the price.
I've looked at many a chisel where i've sometimes struck lucky and the back is flat, while others take an age to remove a lump. The premium models from LN etc now flattened at source, so minimal work to get them up and running, but its all part of the price you pay.
It's not unique, Stanley were doing it with their black handled 5001's all those years back! :lol: 

cheers,
Andy


----------



## Jacob (26 Dec 2011)

I'd agree with that. Ax chisels perfectly OK for beginners (or anybody for that matter). The posh ones are just "nicer" i.e. it's largely cosmetic.
NB for most users the uber flat face is not particularly important (depends what you are doing) but the Axi's are OK on that front anyway.


----------



## andy king (26 Dec 2011)

Jacob":1tdka7e0 said:


> NB for most users the uber flat face is not particularly important (depends what you are doing)



Well, honing them first and foremost! You won't get a wire edge off if the back/face/tomatoe/tomato has a lump in it preventing the blade from sitting to the stone to weaken it and turn it back. 
Pretty important.

Andy


----------



## Harbo (26 Dec 2011)

I inherited my Father's 5001's and I bought a few 5002's in the late 60's.

Both must have been made on a Friday as they will not keep an edge - crumble like cheese.
And before anybody asks they had never been overcooked on a grinder as we did not have one.

Now used as my bashers for doing rough work outside or for other people.

Garrett Hack used to rave about the red handled Bahcos that WH used to stock?
But whether the steel quality is the same I don't know?

Rod


----------



## Jacob (26 Dec 2011)

Tough cheese if you have been able to keep bashing them for 50 years! They've proved how tough they are, maybe you should start looking after them or they may only last another 50. :lol:


----------



## kygaloot (26 Dec 2011)

Harbo":84soslrn said:


> Garrett Hack used to rave about the red handled Bahcos that WH used to stock?
> But whether the steel quality is the same I don't know?



The Bahcos that Garrett Hack likes (and James Krenov) were really Eskilstuna Bergs after Bahco purchased Berg but before Bahco went to a different design and process. There are later red handled Bahco's (Model 1031) that are not the same steel or design. 

Berg style





http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6578027949/

Later Bahco




http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6578027789/

The visual difference is evident in the area of the bolster. 

Jeff


----------

