# mortice and tenons



## JFC (11 Oct 2006)

Ive got 32 windows to make so i thought id best work out a way of speeding up the process of cutting 128 tenons  I was thinking of roughing out the tenons on the bandsaw , cutting the shoulders on the RAS and then cleaning up the tenons on the router table with the mitre fence .
Anyone else got any better ideas please [-o<


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## Scrit (11 Oct 2006)

Yes. Use a spindle moulder with two tenoning disks plus a spacer OR mortise both sides of the joint and use a loose tenon to connect. Either way would be faster IMHO

Scrit


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## wizer (11 Oct 2006)

use the Trend M&T Router Jig as used by David Free?


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## SketchUp Guru (11 Oct 2006)

Seems like too many operations to me. How big are these tenons? Maybe it would make sense to make a jig to allow the entire tenon to be cut with a router. Or, if all the shoulders are the same dimension, set up a router table to do it.


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## Anonymous (11 Oct 2006)

I use the Rat these days. Would the legacy do it?


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## SketchUp Guru (11 Oct 2006)

The Mill would do it, too. In fact you could set up to do a bunch of them at once on the mill. Machine one face on a dozen or so pieces, rotate the work, mill again, etc.


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## Scrit (11 Oct 2006)

Dave R":1b95uguc said:


> ...rotate the work, mill again, etc.


Ah, but therein lies potential inaccuracy when batch machining. Always best to try cutting tenons in one pass if you can.

Scrit


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## Chris Knight (11 Oct 2006)

Loose tenons, rout the mortises, save wood.


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## SketchUp Guru (11 Oct 2006)

Scrit":2d000xwi said:


> Dave R":2d000xwi said:
> 
> 
> > ...rotate the work, mill again, etc.
> ...



But how do you cut all four sides in one pass?


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## Colin C (11 Oct 2006)

I vote for the Legacy as I think if you came a simple stop that you can but up your rails to, you can get them all the same :wink:


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## Anonymous (11 Oct 2006)

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## Anonymous (11 Oct 2006)

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## SketchUp Guru (11 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":3l3c2jet said:


> Dave R":3l3c2jet said:
> 
> 
> > Scrit":3l3c2jet said:
> ...



Where does JFC say there _aren't_ four shoulders to cut for these tenons?


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## JFC (11 Oct 2006)

Wow you lot have been busy while i've been marking out :lol: 
I must admit i normally take my tenons straight from the bandsaw but i know if im doing alot i get bored and start to rush things so i rough cut them and clean them up with the router . I want to do through M&T with wedges so i don't think a router jig will help . 
Ive tried tenons on the Legacy 8-[ and it tended to snatch resulting in me having to buy a new indexing cog  Thinking along the lines of the legacy i could rough them out on the band saw , cut the shoulders on the RAS and then line them up on the legacy and pass the router over them , i should get around 25 tenons cleaned up in 4 - 6 passes


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## SketchUp Guru (11 Oct 2006)

If you want to use the Legacy, why not make a table to support the work? You can set stops and a hold down to keep the work in place and then hack away.


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## Anonymous (11 Oct 2006)

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## Anonymous (11 Oct 2006)

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## Scrit (11 Oct 2006)

Dave R":1pimjtvn said:


> Scrit":1pimjtvn said:
> 
> 
> > Dave R":1pimjtvn said:
> ...


You'd normally use tenons with only two cheeks as Mr. G implied. The way I'm used to doing it nowadays is 4 up on a single end tenoner or sometimes the same arrangement on a spindle moulder (pushed through with a square board) - either way with a backer board to limit spelch. Before I had a single ender I'd do it the way Jacob proferred, on a bandsaw with an end limit stop and move the fence so the same face of the components was always the register face - as soon as you flip a piece over register and accuracy can go out the window (_sic_). If everything is in register on one side and minor differences in thickness can be dealt with by the jack plane after assembly.

Scrit


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## Anonymous (11 Oct 2006)

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## mailee (11 Oct 2006)

Why not knock up Steve Maskery's jig and use the router for them all. I do. :wink:


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## JFC (11 Oct 2006)

> Looks like a very tedious way of making or tidying-up tenons.


Not the way i intend to do it . Im planning on lining up around 25 tenons and passing the router along the carriage with a planer cutter cleaning up the tenons , should take around 2 hours including set up . How long would it normally take to clean up 128 tenons ? A little longer than 2 hours i think :wink: 
The Legacy is a little more than just another router aid , it seems to have got them all in one and then some more IMHO . 
It makes easy and fast work of turning and fluting turnings and also makes dentil moulding a doddle .


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## wizer (11 Oct 2006)

mailee":2ahuacst said:


> Why not knock up Steve Maskery's jig and use the router for them all. I do. :wink:



but will the dvd be ready in time?


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## seaco (11 Oct 2006)

I know it's a swear word on here but you could use a 'dado' setup in your table saw if it will fit?

Lee


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## wrightclan (11 Oct 2006)

How about going a totally different way, and using loose tenons? Can't think of a faster way to make clean tenons. Of course, then you have to cut twice as many mortices. :?: :-k 

Brad


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## wizer (11 Oct 2006)

wrightclan":y8oh5g1q said:


> How about going a totally different way, and using loose tenons? Can't think of a faster way to make clean tenons. Of course, then you have to cut twice as many mortices. :?: :-k
> 
> Brad





waterhead37":y8oh5g1q said:


> Loose tenons, rout the mortises, save wood.





I like the sound of this method and of course what you loose on making more mortices, you save on making accurate tenons


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## wrightclan (11 Oct 2006)

Sorry, I just noticed Scrit already suggested this.  

Brad


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## wrightclan (11 Oct 2006)

And Waterhead37, too.   

Brad


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## Scrit (11 Oct 2006)

Mr_Grimsdale":na5madim said:


> "register face" Is this a new term? It always used to be just "face" and "edge" (and "back face", ditto edge).


Ah yes, but I'm trying to pander to the engineers here..... :wink: Actually I'm spending far too much time with printers recently - some of the terminology is beginning to rub off...... :roll: 

Scrit


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## JFC (11 Oct 2006)

A dado set up wont work on my RAS Ive tried them  Also i dont trust my pre war spindle moulder enough to be using tenoning heads .
I dont like the idea of loose tenons as its not as good as a through wedged M&T IMHO .


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## Scrit (11 Oct 2006)

seaco":bwpw1lep said:


> I know it's a swear word on here but you could use a 'dado' setup in your table saw if it will fit?


How is that different from using a router in terms of accuracy of cut (assuming you are talking about running the work flat on the table and "nibbling" away material in 2 or 3 passes)? To get the accuracy needed you'd have to go to a vertical tenoning jig and throw away the guard - please don't go there :roll: 

Scrit


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## Scrit (11 Oct 2006)

JFC":fiy5rbce said:


> A dado set up wont work on my RAS Ive tried them  Also i dont trust my pre war spindle moulder enough to be using tenoning heads .
> I dont like the idea of loose tenons as its not as good as a through wedged M&T IMHO .


Which war? 2nd, First, Boer? (_only kidding, we've had this conversation already, haven't we?_ :wink: ) I agree with you about the loose tenons, I'm less happy about them than through tenons, but that's what a Domino is when all said and done....... If you can't run them on the spindle then saw the shoulders on the RAS and bandsaw the faces like Mr G suggests is surely going to be the fastest way.

Scrit


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## JFC (11 Oct 2006)

I think thats the way to go Scrit , i just want to get them perfect because its a new contact in a very good area and they are using me because their last joiner upped his prices . I think ill set up the Legacy for the clean up just to see if it works as well as i think it will . Added bonus is ill have another jig at the end of it all  
Of course i will harp on about how well the Legacy did the job if it all works out :lol:


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## Scrit (11 Oct 2006)

Then when you're in clover after this job you can afford to go out and get a spindle moulder :wink: 

Scrit


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## JFC (11 Oct 2006)

And a few dedicated blocks :wink:


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## Scrit (11 Oct 2006)

If you were a bit nearer you could have popped and run them on the single-ender. Although it takes about ten times as long to set-up as run them!

Scrit


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## seaco (11 Oct 2006)

Scrit":20sn26hp said:


> seaco":20sn26hp said:
> 
> 
> > I know it's a swear word on here but you could use a 'dado' setup in your table saw if it will fit?
> ...



Told you a dado was a swear word, I never said it was more accurate, no need to nibble you could cut full depth in one pass, why would you need to use a tenoning jig (although I do use one and it's a very good bit of kit) but not everyone has one?

I would use a mitre gauge and a small block of wood clamped to the saw fence before the blade to act as a the tenon depth gauge, don't use the saw fence as a depth gauge as you could get kick back, raise the blade to the depth of cheek you want I can get a width of about 20mm cut per pass if you need more just pass again!

Very quick and easy and yes I do have a guard over the dado for this...

Lee


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## wrightclan (11 Oct 2006)

seaco":3howv1yd said:


> ...don't use the saw fence as a depth gauge...
> 
> Lee



You can use the fence as a depth gauge, without risk of kickback *if* you attach a secondary cheek that ends just after the leading teeth of the blade. 

The kickback occurs because of binding ever so slightly between the blade (dado or otherwise) and the fence. Using a mitre gauge with a long fence is a big no-no. If the fence ends at the front of the blade (either by using a short fence or a short secondary cheek), then this danger is eliminated.

BTW, I know Scrit will say never to use a long fence. But the danger in using a long fence with a mitre gauge is far greater than using one for ripping or for cutting sheet stock.

Brad


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## wrightclan (11 Oct 2006)

Lee,

Sorry, just re-read your post. You just described the same thing I did in another way.  Need to stop skimming over posts.  

Brad


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## Alf (12 Oct 2006)

JFC":1ry8ol56 said:


> Of course i will harp on about how well the Legacy did the job if it all works out :lol:


Meanwhile you could have done 'em on the 'Rat by now... :wink: :lol: 

Sorry, that's not helpful. Interesting thead actually, particularly the feelings of reluctance to use loose tenons. I have the same problem, and I don't know why! In 1903 one book was declaring m&ts as old hat and how everyone uses dowels now - although that was furniture making. S'funny old world.

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (12 Oct 2006)

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## Scrit (12 Oct 2006)

Alf":4i1vp1w3 said:


> Sorry, that's not helpful. Interesting thead actually, particularly the feelings of reluctance to use loose tenons. I have the same problem, and I don't know why! In 1903 one book was declaring m&ts as old hat and how everyone uses dowels now - although that was furniture making.


Possibly because it means two glue joints per wood joint if you know what I mean. Glue joints were always a potential source of failure in the days of hide glues which is why m&ts on good quality doors, etc were always foxed (wedged). With modern adhesives actually being stronger than wood itself maybe we shouldn't be so reticent.

Scrit


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## wrightclan (12 Oct 2006)

Scrit":1aabgult said:


> Alf":1aabgult said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, that's not helpful. Interesting thead actually, particularly the feelings of reluctance to use loose tenons. I have the same problem, and I don't know why! In 1903 one book was declaring m&ts as old hat and how everyone uses dowels now - although that was furniture making.
> ...



Well said. =D> =D>


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## JFC (12 Oct 2006)

> Just cos you've got a 'legacy' or a 'rat' (whatever that is) doesn't mean you 'have' to use them. In fact by and large I think you might be better off binning them


Thats a very odd thing to say without having tried out the product . I cant speak for the rat but i know you haven't tried the legacy because you wouldn't have said the above if you had .
Still if you don't want to look into a product that can save you time and money then thats up to you :?


With regards to the modern glues a scribe joint and a biscuit would make a stronger joint than a loose tenon would it not ?


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## Scrit (12 Oct 2006)

Well, speaking as someone who's owned a 'rat, for this sort of task I'd probably find it of less use. The 'rat is great for one-offs and prototype work because it is so versatile, but for volume work it's not really ideal because it has no fixed stops as you'd expect to see on, say, a chisel or chain mortiser - you set pencil marks, etc. then eyeball it. Batch work at speed pushes you into different solutions such as marking out only the first piece and having stops or fences on the machine. By working this way much time can be saved. Can't say about the Legacy having never used one.

Scrit


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## RogerS (12 Oct 2006)

Scrit":1mk08479 said:


> because it (the rat) has no fixed stops as you'd expect to see on, say, a chisel or chain mortiser - you set pencil marks, etc. then eyeball it.
> Scrit



but if you go to Aldel'ssite there's loads of jigs that will give you repeatability...at relatively little cost.


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## wrightclan (12 Oct 2006)

JFC":317b3yyu said:


> With regards to the modern glues a scribe joint and a biscuit would make a stronger joint than a loose tenon would it not ?



Probably about equal. A biscuit is basically a small loose tenon. But I think an appropriately sized loose tenon would be marginally stronger, if only because the thin point of a scribe joint can sometimes split, and a larger loose tenon would give more gluing surface. I really think either method(done accurately), or a traditional tenon would last the life of the window.

Brad


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## Anonymous (12 Oct 2006)

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## JFC (12 Oct 2006)

True , you can have an opinion without having used something . 
The reason i was thinking of using the legacy is because in my experience of cutting tenons on the bandsaw i tend to spend more time cleaning up than actually cutting the tenons . Maybe i should take a little more care and time when using the bandsaw but i found passing them over the router (in the table) gave a better result than straight of the bandsaw .
Thats why i thought about using the legacy as it will speed up the routing process .


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## Anonymous (12 Oct 2006)

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## gidon (12 Oct 2006)

HI JFC
Coming in on this a bit late - but I don't find tenons cut straight off my bandsaw good enough for joints I find acceptable - always need cleaning up some. And I have my bandsaw set up as well as I can with a good quality blade. Maybe I need a bigger / better bandsaw .
I think rough cutting them on the bandsaw almost to the shoulder and then cleaning them up on the router table (including making the final shoulder cut) with a sled is the best option. Only need to have one setting for the bit height and fence (perhaps another bit height setting for the haunch). And you don't have to be particuarly careful on the bandsaw.





Cheers
Gidon


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## nickson71 (12 Oct 2006)

I've just built a cot .....pic's to follow this weekend........... and all the mortise and tennons (90 off them) were cut in about 4hrs using my rat ...... all fitted perfectly even though I've never cut them on the rat before ...


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## JFC (12 Oct 2006)

The tenon is seen on the end grain and straight off the bandsaw gives me results like this 




I want the end grain to show a perfect fit .


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## Scrit (12 Oct 2006)

How big is your tenon, JFC? Pity you're not a bit closer - a simple tenon like that is a doddle on a spindle moulder, even double pass with a single tenon disc. As a point of comparison the single-end tenoner takes me 20 to 40 minutes to set-up for scribed work (5 heads), but only 10 to 15 minutes for a straight tenon with a sizing saw cut (3 heads). Thereafter I can tenon at the rate of 120 to 250 tenons per hour three to five up. That's why I think the 'Rat way is slow and uneconomic for trades work.

Scrit


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## Anonymous (12 Oct 2006)

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## JFC (12 Oct 2006)

Bandsaw is a RSBS14 and ive got a record 75 bench top morticer . The mortice and tenons are 12mm thick and for windows 50mm but i need to do 100mm also for doors .


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## Anonymous (12 Oct 2006)

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## JFC (12 Oct 2006)

> They'll do it OK.


 I know , ive cut a few thousand myself using this method . 
The point your missing is im not happy with this method and i want every M&T to be a perfect fit without having to play with them by hand .


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## Anonymous (12 Oct 2006)

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## JFC (12 Oct 2006)

If i try harder it will feel like im working for a living rather than playing with tools :lol: 
Im wondering if a dedicated router set up to cut the wedged side of the mortices and the last 12 mm of the tenon ( not including the 10mm scrap) may be the way to get a perfect "looking" M&T . 

P.S Mr Grimsdale you should take a closer look at the Legacy , it would make that arched door surround you have on your website in next to no time .


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## Scrit (12 Oct 2006)

JFC

As this is a softwood job I'm beginning to wonder if you could set-up two low-cost 1/2in routers in a horizontal router table with two quadrants - that would give you in effect a low-cost tenoner. The only downside is that your maximum length of tenon would be somewhere around 50 to 60mm the limit being the longest cutter you could get. I'll try to put this int SU and post it for the morrow.

Scrit


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## JFC (13 Oct 2006)

Scrit , i've tried doing tenons with just a router and it takes far to many passes compared to the bandsaw . If what your suggesting is a clean up pass then it sounds like a good idea and i do have a few spare routers  
I might try and set the legacy up tomorrow just to see if i can clean up 20 odd tenons in a few passes . Im sure it'll work but i need to test it first .


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## Anonymous (13 Oct 2006)

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## JFC (13 Oct 2006)

> All this fiddling about with routers is just an inefficient bodge.


Easy Tiger ! 




> It'd make something 'like' it viewed from 100 yards but you just wouldn't be able to copy the profiles- most of the cuts would be too big for a router and you'd need 100s of quids worth of purpose made cutters if you wanted to do a perfect copy.
> Anyway what would be the point if you've got a spindle moulder?


Like i say i think it would be worth your while taking the time to look at the product properly . One or two off the shelf cutters would make an exact copy , i know ive done it .


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## Anonymous (13 Oct 2006)

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## JFC (13 Oct 2006)

You don't need the profile on the cutter . You drop the cutter onto the profile and transfer it to your new timber . Yes a spindle moulder is great for doing lots of M runs of moulds but for a one off i use the Legacy , it really is quick. My local timber yard passes all their odd mouldings to me as i can turn them around quicker .
As for the noise and dust (hammer) Its a workshop :roll:


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## Scrit (13 Oct 2006)

Hi JFC

I've pondered this and the problem I have is that with two routers held horizontally I don't think there won't be enough power to make the cuts in a single pass, especially as I was thinking in terms of something like a 32mm diameter x 50mm high cutter (about the minimum yopu'd get away with). Another problem is that ideally you need to have the upper and lower cutters contra-rotating to allow control of break-out, but additionally I think you'd need to clamp the work onto some form of sliding carraige for safety's sake and reduce the rotation speed to around the 12,000 to 15,000 rpm mark. By the time you've done all that even a simple spindle like a Robland T30 with a carraige and a pair of tenoning discs wouldn't cost a lot more, IMHO. It would also have the nmajor advantage of bags of torque - something you don't get with Universal motors on portable power tools. The sort of arrangement I was thinking about looks a bit like the tenoning block arrangement on this Danckaert single-end tenoner:







but done with two routers on quadrant plates.

Scrit


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## Freetochat (13 Oct 2006)

I noted the comment about using the face side against the fence in cutting both cheeks of the tennon, does the same apply using a single rebate block on a spindle molder (ie cutting the first half by passing the wood over the cutter and the second under the cutter, with face side to the table).


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## Scrit (13 Oct 2006)

Freetochat":4ap5nwak said:


> I noted the comment about using the face side against the fence in cutting both cheeks of the tennon, does the same apply using a single rebate block on a spindle molder (ie cutting the first half by passing the wood over the cutter and the second under the cutter, with face side to the table).


Yes, this is because the reference surface (face) of the workpiece must always travel against the spindle moulder table. Strictly speaking you cannot readily create a tenon using a rebate block, because in most cases the depth of cut is very limited (a 100mm diameter rebate block can only produce about 25 to 30mm rebate or tenon length because the arbor and spacers get in the way) and the height of cut is too deep to allow you to raise the arbor sufficiently to pass work beneath the cut in many cases (a 50mm high rebate block on 40mm thick material would require a spindle vertical travel of circa 80mm and a spindle length around 140mm to do this trick taking into account spacers and top nut, etc - so you'd be into a fairly big machine). And that's before we even get into safety considerations. If you do use a rebate block and flip over you do run the risk of inaccuracies creeping in

For this reason we use a specialised form of rebate block called a tenoning disc. Here are some old ones:






The diameter is much greater than a rebate block, circa 200 to 300mm to give a tenon length of around 70 to 110mm whilst the height of cut is reduced to around 20 to 30mm which is more than adequate for tenoning. Your workpiece is normally clamped onto a sliding table to make the cut with a break-out board at the back to handle spelching

Scrit


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## Anonymous (13 Oct 2006)

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## Freetochat (13 Oct 2006)

Thanks Scrit.

What I was going to use was a 250mm (8.5 to 15mm adjustable groover) which gives me up to 100mm width of cut. This would be fed clamped on a slider with a backing piece to reduce tearout. The only other addition would be a sled to raise the peice to a working level to pass over as well as under the cutter due to the cutter being larger than the spindle well.

Regards

John


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## JFC (13 Oct 2006)

Scrit , i do have the sliding bed on the record router table and have used this in the past to clean up the tenons on some oak doors i made where the visable part of the joint needed to be spot on. It took a long time to pass all the tenons through but gave great results . I think at the end of the day i need to upgrade my spindle moulder to something that will take tenoning blocks . As you know im not happy with the spindle ive got, i just dont trust the beast ! As it is i have a wide collection of cutters for the spindle and a few dedicated blocks and yes the cutters are alot cheaper than router cutters even to have them made for you . 
Its just i can buy so many other toys for the cost of a new spindle moulder  (hammer)


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## Anonymous (13 Oct 2006)

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## Scrit (13 Oct 2006)

Freetochat":2na5zrgr said:


> What I was going to use was a 250mm (8.5 to 15mm adjustable groover) which gives me up to 100mm width of cut. This would be fed clamped on a slider with a backing piece to reduce tearout. The only other addition would be a sled to raise the peice to a working level to pass over as well as under the cutter due to the cutter being larger than the spindle well.


Ah, well, that's pretty much the same as a tenoning disc. And as you say put a packing piece beneath. 

Scrit


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