# Cottage back door for the M-I-L



## DigitalM

My mother-in-law has somehow engineered a situation where I, a mid-level at best but enthusiastic and reasonably well-equipped woodworker and DIYer, have to make her a back door for her cottage. It is politically impossible for me to back out (despite never agreeing) for reasons that I CBA explaining or justifying!

Any sources of good advice are most welcome (recommended books, plans, videos, or general construction info).

Also, what's a good timber to use, this thing doesn't have to be exotic or fancy, but I don't want to spend a fortune on timber only to screw it up and pay through the nose for more if I need a second go!

As for design, it doesn't really matter. It's not inner-city so doesn't need to be crazy-security, but a little window at head height so you can peer out and see if it's raining would be ok.

I'm not really saying much more as so long as I produce a reasonable door of some kind to replace the disaster that's there already, she's good and I'm off the hook! The idea of multiple haunched tennons, drawbore pins and the like terrifies me but honestly if that really is the way to go and the advice is man up and get on with it then OK, but if there's a simpler way ... that's great too.


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## paulrbarnard

Why not pick up a door from Wickes and say you made it. Probably cheaper than the materials.


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## DigitalM

paulrbarnard said:


> Why not pick up a door from Wickes and say you made it. Probably cheaper than the materials.


Very weird ancient cottage door sizing, and horribly out of square weird shaped opening! Plus I think she wants something I made. Her opinion of my skill level is, flatteringly, over-inflated!


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## Cabinetman

Ledge and brace is very cottagie, and easier to cut to a strange shape.


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## Sgian Dubh

Cabinetman said:


> Ledge and brace is very cottagie, and easier to cut to a strange shape.


A small step up in complexity involving some M&Ts would be the framed ledge and brace type of door. I guess it might be tricky working out how or where to put a bit of glass to see out of. Maybe a spyhole thing instead? Slainte.


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## johnnyb

what facilities do you have at your disposal? mortiser? saw? planer? 
redwood unsorted or fifths would make a decent door. factor in a canopy to make it last/ not swell to much. t and g is easily obtainable in redwood as a fill. 
any rot in the frame? macc step or timber?


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## johnnyb

sgian will know this book as I brought it off him at harrogate( I think).lost art press window and door making. very good and detailed( See my post making a traditional front door)


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## Droogs

Have to admit to a little snigger when I read the title


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## Adam W.

I'd start with looking at George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery" You will find everything you need to know and more within it's covers.


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## juniper_tree

Sounds like a great opportunity to buy some nice new tools and bill her for them.

Dear MIL,

I’m very flattered by this and would be happy to do this, but I have never done anything at this size before and so need to buy some tools just for this one job, it might therefore work out cheaper to pay a professional.

she either backs out, or you get a Festool Domino 700 (+other things), either way win:win


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## Superduner

Here in France, the common way is to use tongue and groove 22mm oak floorboards. Even I, with my somewhat limited skills managed to make a few quite reasonable doors that seem to be holding up well.
So you would need a circular saw and some clamps for gluing up, And your mil's back door would be safe again......


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## grumpycorn

In my experience Mil's are not prone to flattery (admittedly I've only had the one)... Maybe you're better than you think?!

Take your time and you'll be fine - though Juniper_tree's idea of billing for a Festool does make a lot of sense...


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## accipiter

Some good examples to look towards with the t&g ledged & braced "cottagestyle" doors but we would probably benefit from more information to be able to help more. 

If me, firstly I'd take some photos of what is there already along with measurements. We can then best advise a course of action. If it happens to be "somewhere" in the region of an off the shelf size that can be cut down to fit then all the better... even if the existing is as described.

The *joy* will come when you get round to fitting it - you may find the frame is also somewhat in need of attention... more so than the door and the door will be the least of your problems! That's something I came up against many years ago when I said I could replace a standard size front door for someone... the frame was the cause of much troubles - on a Sunday morning.


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## DigitalM

So sorry everyone, I must apologise - I wasn't getting email about this thread updating and so thought it had died!

After reading through the comments I visited M-I-L and she's happy to get a replacement Ledge and brace door, so I'm going to try and figure out a way to get some glass in nicely. The one that's there currently is what I would call a "unified L&B stable door" ... erm, it was a ledge and brace stable door with a tiny window at the top, and someone nailed it all together. It's horrible. However, I've waffled it through and we're going with a better ledge and brace, I can probably cope with that.

Truth is, I could probably manage a more robust stile-and-rail thing but that would involve much, much faffing with the frame which is probably beyond what either of us want done.

For those suggesting the Festool opportunity, at great risk of more snickering from those that found "cottage back door for M-I-L" title amusing (to be fair I did, but left it for comedic effect), I cannot countenance milking the M-I-L.

Thanks for the tips on books, I love a good woodworking book  Have added a few ebay searches.


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## Fitzroy

I may have called my ex-MIL a cow once or twice but I would never have attempted to milk her. Look forwards to see the pictures of the door being made.


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## baldkev

*as long as there isnt pictures of the milking   *


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## DigitalM

No mate no milking shots 

I'm thinking something like this. 









Bespoke Oak Ledge And Brace Doors - Panel for Glazing


Oak Internal doors handmade from Kiln dried, joinery grade oak on site by our workshop craftsmen.These doors are especially made to your own specifications. This particular example has an aperture suitable for glazing.Ledge and braced for strength, These doors come unglazed, but can be fitted...




cawardenreclaim.co.uk





Though that's apparently an internal door.

Trying to solve the window issue. I did a sketchup because I can't do back of fag-packet stuff like you more professional types who know what you're doing, and it helps me to understand what's going on before I do something stupid (which, given half a chance, I will).

I'm thinking (see pics) of dropping double glazed unit in front and then mitre framing it in to hold it. Security is not much of an issue in the area I'm assured, and door will be hard to access because of enclosed garden.

Someone very kindly already pointed out that you don't glue the battens, so I've been reading all round the subject!

And before anyone says, the M-I-L really didn't want clinched nails, so unless there's something terrible with woodscrewed and plugged (other than it being non-traditional) then it would probably have to be that.

Quite enjoying the challenge of getting my head around this and I'm learning a lot. Thanks so much for the generous donation of time and experience. I really appreciate it. I have limited time available at moment so I'm not fast! I know some of you would have finished it the afternoon it was requested!


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## mikej460

Despite no concerns about security it's always best practice to mitre in from the inside. That window is also security risk as it is very wide, I'd recommend the smaller one shown in the advert. Your sketch-up is missing the diagonal braces which add strength. Some door makers advocate cutting slotted screw holes for the ledge and braces to allow for seasonal movement. Likewise the boards need to have sufficiently deep T&G to allow for movement without gaps appearing. Also think about where the hinges and locks will be needed. The hinges are normally quality Tee Hinges screwed into the inner faces of the top and bottom ledges. The lock can be fitted to a separate square or mini ledge. Also don't forget a weather bar to keep rain away from under the door. Marrying all this up to an existing frame may be a challenge, you may need to consider a new one and exterior ones are tricky to make properly. 

hope this is useful


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## Ollie78

I would certainly put some braces in. 
Might as well go all the way and do ledged braced and framed then you can fit a proper mortice lock as well.

Ollie


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## DigitalM

Not enough depth in the original frame to do framed ledge and brace. They want a newer, better version of what's there already and don't want any faffing with the frame as it's a complicated old cottage with many things meeting at that point. Ideally, they'd have some master craftsman totally redo it but *budget* so it's little old me doing what I can to patch it up!


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## DigitalM

Just totted up the timber in Sapele and it's like £220+vat or so. Given that this is going to be painted and maintained, any suggestions for something cheaper? If for durability it really has to be a durable hardwood then so be it! I looked at the douglas fir prices and they were about the same. I read somewhere that hemlock is used sometimes for doors, but that stuff doesn't sound anywhere near as durable or secure.


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## johnnyb

redwood would be cheaper. but I've been caught out by these plank doors twisting many times. there not suitable for weather tight doors( think outside bog or coalhouse). also they don't like secure locks. I think I would make a framed door and try and make a stormproof rebate on the door if the frame rebate is narrow.


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## DigitalM

I could do without twisting. Can't wait to get this one behind me and get onto another project more within my comfort zone. Learning a lot though!


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## Jameshow

Larch?

Cheaper than Doug fir and fairly durable?

Cheers James


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## Ollie78

Utile, Meranti (if you can find a nice bit) , Red grandis, Southern yellow pine, Douglas fir.

Ollie


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## thetyreman

Redwood pine is good if you are painting it, but it's not very durable, you will be lucky if it lasts 5 years using modern paints, however linseed oil paints will work well with it. 

I'd go with a nice hardwood like english oak, sapele or iroko.


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## Doug71

Bit of an out there alternative suggestion but if you are looking at spending £250 on wood and not looking forwards to making it get yourself a sheet of 18mm Tricoya MDF. Just cut it to size and use some of the off cuts for the battens, you can easily put some fake grooves in with a saw or router. No problems with sagging or movement.

Never done it myself but Keith Brown made a gate like that.


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## DigitalM

One quick question as I've just started dimensioning the timber (got a good deal on some sapele from Yandles!). 

With regard to the tongue and groove. Is it customary to cut the tongues to the exact depth, or a little short of full-depth to allow for movement or something?


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## baldkev

2mm is a good move


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## DigitalM

Just getting to the end of this project. Anyone have any advice on the best primer/paint or other products to use for painting a sapele exterior door?

Originally the mother-in-law was thinking of a natural wood finish, but now wants paint. Actually, as good as it would look in a natural finish, I think it would match existing exterior doors and windows if it were painted the same.


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## johnnyb

I like sandtex flexi paints usually buy from wickes. these are oil base.


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## Thingybob

Adam W. said:


> I'd start with looking at George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery" You will find everything you need to know and more within it's covers.


My bible best book i own


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## Thingybob

DigitalM said:


> No mate no milking shots
> 
> I'm thinking something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bespoke Oak Ledge And Brace Doors - Panel for Glazing
> 
> 
> Oak Internal doors handmade from Kiln dried, joinery grade oak on site by our workshop craftsmen.These doors are especially made to your own specifications. This particular example has an aperture suitable for glazing.Ledge and braced for strength, These doors come unglazed, but can be fitted...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cawardenreclaim.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though that's apparently an internal door.
> 
> Trying to solve the window issue. I did a sketchup because I can't do back of fag-packet stuff like you more professional types who know what you're doing, and it helps me to understand what's going on before I do something stupid (which, given half a chance, I will).
> 
> I'm thinking (see pics) of dropping double glazed unit in front and then mitre framing it in to hold it. Security is not much of an issue in the area I'm assured, and door will be hard to access because of enclosed garden.
> 
> Someone very kindly already pointed out that you don't glue the battens, so I've been reading all round the subject!
> 
> And before anyone says, the M-I-L really didn't want clinched nails, so unless there's something terrible with woodscrewed and plugged (other than it being non-traditional) then it would probably have to be that.
> 
> Quite enjoying the challenge of getting my head around this and I'm learning a lot. Thanks so much for the generous donation of time and experience. I really appreciate it. I have limited time available at moment so I'm not fast! I know some of you would have finished it the afternoon it was requested!


Have you thought of a port hole style window off set in the T and G quirky and you can hone your circular wood work to boot


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## Doug71

Aluminium primer was always the thing to use on Sapele, I still do.


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## Jameshow

DigitalM said:


> Just getting to the end of this project. Anyone have any advice on the best primer/paint or other products to use for painting a sapele exterior door?
> 
> Originally the mother-in-law was thinking of a natural wood finish, but now wants paint. Actually, as good as it would look in a natural finish, I think it would match existing exterior doors and windows if it were painted the same.


Let's be seeing it then!!!


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## DigitalM

Sorry I've been building rather than photographing!

First big project really, of anything bigger than a small box! So go easy on me, I'm trying my best. I'm sure every bit of it could be improved upon. I've taken it to the site and cut it to fit the frame since this was taken and am quite please with it. It's back at my mate's workshop (we kind of share the space) for finalising. I'm going to putty the glass and nail the glazing frames on next. Then Paint (yes paint!) it. Seems a shame but there we go. I'd hoped she'd see it then keep it natural but to be fair all the other woodwork is this nice cotswold green so it would probably look out of place.

Oh and I have to fit a weather bar. I guess I could laminate something up and use some of the old woody moulding planes I have. Then again I can get one on ebay for £30. At this stage I just want to finish the thing but it's a 20 minute trip each way to the workshop and I just rarely get a couple of free hours that seems to be the minimum needed to actually do anything when I've taken the 40min travel time out of it!

Outside:




Inside:



Ledge with wood plugs:



Profile for glazing frames:



You know, erm, chamfered edge thing:



Oh yeah, testing biscuit-type cuts for the frame edges. Obviously I used a narrower loose-tennon biscuit thing:


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## DigitalM

Another update from the worlds longest running door project, including an urgent plea for help with locks:

Last week I glazed the door with 6mm toughened glass using linseed oil putty. Seems ok, some cleanup to do! 



Bought some strap hinges that were terrible so returned them:



Found some others that were loads better, though I will have to file a one of the hole to accept a square coach bolt for security:



Now the lock problem.

- The door opens outward
- The door is is 5/8" thick (not thick enough for sash lock)

If I sit a rim lock with the little 'overlap' right to the edge of the door then the lock would hit the door stop when closing, and it seems to me that cutting the door stop would look unsightly

Maybe I could file off the overlap, set the lock back a bit, and then set a strikeplate into the door stop?!

I guess I could add a block of wood set back a bit onto the door then mount a rim lock to that, which is deep enough to allow the rimlock to pass behind the door stop and mount a catch like the one below behind the door stop?

Is there a better or more approriate lock to use?



Quite close to finishing this project now, just a couple more months maybe


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## HOJ

Rim lock wont work on an outward opening door, whats on the existing door?


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## DigitalM

Just bolts. I'd like to fit a proper lock if possible but they said just bolts was ok if there wasn't a better solution. It's a back door so not like it's the main entrance - they never 'exit' (and lock) the door to go our and about for example, just to go into the garden.


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## Doug71

Tricky one when it opens out and not thick enough for a standard sash/deadlock. 

You could maybe do something with one of the Gatemate locks, they are a bit like a locking bolt, designed for gates really but a good quality product.

They have a really long throw, might screw on the back of one of the ledges and cut a small square out of the stop lath for the bolt to shoot through 

Link below



Long Throw Locks | Birkdale Sales


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## DigitalM

Thanks, I have a gatemate myself, didn't think of that. Will look into it.


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## HOJ

I have fitted these in the past: https://www.locksonline.co.uk/Yale-89-Outward-Opening-Door-Nightlatch.html

But you'll still need to work out a handle/latch solution.


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## HamsterJam

Can you add a substantial block to the inside of the door and fit a mortise deadlock? 
Have you got room on the jamb for the keep?


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## DigitalM

HamsterJam said:


> Can you add a substantial block to the inside of the door and fit a mortise deadlock?
> Have you got room on the jamb for the keep?


This is possible. They've told me to fit it with just bolts inside initially. Once it's in I can retrofit something like this. Might actually be the best way as I'm less likely to screw something up due to my inexperience if I can see the whole thing in situ first. I'm sure when you've done this a few years you can just look at the door opening and have the whole thing planned in your head ... that's sure not where I am!


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## DigitalM

When fitting Tee Hinges, do you put the hinges on the door or the frame first, and are there any rules regarding whre the hinge-pin center of rotation goes (can't think of another way to put that!).
And yes, I'd be surprised if there is another project running as ridiculously slowly as this one!!! Work, work, work... and other excuses. I woudn't even be this far along without you guys.


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## Superduner

I'm not sure if this is the recommended way, but I put the door side on first with the frame side folded down against the edge of the door to get the pin position constant. Then use wedges to hold the door central in the frame and fix the frame side part of the hinge.


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## DigitalM

The old door is off





and the new one is in











Thank you so much to everyone for their patience and help. It's taken forever, mainly due to lack of available time, but it's finally in and the MIL is absolutely delighted. It's only got a couple of bolts on there at the moment with they decide on door furniture. They're probably going for a thumb latch to match the hinges, and I'll probably fit a surface mounted mortice look too. In spring I'll repaint the frame, just needed to get the thing in initially as it looked like it was going to tip it down with rain!


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## TomB

Nice one, looks ace.


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