# Sharpening



## Noel (24 May 2005)

These http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=20440
Is it worth getting the 800 AND the 1200? Will there be that much cutting difference between them?

TIA

Noel


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## Chris Knight (24 May 2005)

Noel,

My strong advice is not to touch them with a barge pole. I bought Spyderco ceramic stones and they are not at all flat. I have read posts from quite a few disappointed users to the same effect.

Because they are so hard you need a diamond stone to flatten them. I left mine on the shelf till I started carving and found that for very fine, small carving tools they did the job as I don't need a wide flat stone as one would for say a plane iron.

To answer your question, yes, there is a noticeable difference between the grits in use.


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## Alf (24 May 2005)

Yep, there _is_ a difference, but I wouldn't really recommend getting them at all. They're very slow cutting, but worse, often they're not flat (neither of mine were to start with). They're a real bear to flatten, being so hard and all; I resorted to using a coarse DMT, and it took forever. If they were as good as Axminster claims for them, everyone would have them - as it is they're rarely even mentioned. 'Nuff said? :|

Cheers, Alf


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## Noel (24 May 2005)

OK, that's clear enough. Any opinions on Shapton stones, apart from the price? Give up waterstones, messy, too much space etc, but willing to go back to them if best option. What are your current sharpening regimes?

Noel


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## MikeW (24 May 2005)

Hi Noel,

The Professional series Shaptons are great stones. They cut well, last a long time. I have a 2000 and 8000 Shapton. Get the cast iron flattening plate with the appropriate powders for truing the Shaptons. Or you can spring for their diamond reference plate--but it is really costly.

I also like my 4000 grit King waterstone which I had prior to getting the Shaptons, which is why I do not have a Shapton between the 2000 and 8000.

I use diamond plates lower than the 2000 Shapton. Once they are wore out I'll probably get either the 1000 or 1500 Shapton, but will still use the DMTs lower than that.


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## Chris Knight (24 May 2005)

Noel,

Mainly as follows for plane irons and chisels:

1. Tormek if badly dinged edge or when making an old rust-hunt find usable.

2. DMTs (I have the black, blue, red and green) . The red and the green will get a good edge on most things that have already had their initial sharpening. I do have a wide 8000 grit waterstone that I normally use for a plane iron's final sharpening in conjunction with DC's ruler trick. The black DMT gets used mainly for initial flattening of backs. I don't use the blue very much at all.

3. Stropping on something suitable with a compound. (I am using my el-cheapo power strop a lot for this now as it is very quick and especially good for touching up chisels. If I don't use this, I will generally use a piece of maple.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... ower+strop

Like you, I find waterstones for everything far too messy for my taste - I might use them if I had a sink with running water close at hand although the constant need for flattening also bugs me.

The very best edge I can get comes from a translucent Arkansas stone but I reserve this for my carving chisels. A close second is a black "surgical" Arkansas. These stones run about the same as the DMT Duosharps so you want to be sure which system you are going for unless you want to take over my place as curator of the National Collection of Sharpening systems.


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## beech1948 (24 May 2005)

Noel,

I have just about recovered from the horror of the Rexon Wg180a wet grinder.

I lost my two favourite stones due to a workshop crash...well a 40 ton lorry drove over them outside the workshop..I was just cleaning out the workshop/garage..bloody builders.

I now have the following:-
Tormek...I surrendered and got one. Used it to improve 40 + chisels and 8 plane blades ...works very well. It was Philly's reasoning which led me to this and also my increasing arthritus. Sound decision though.

I have a 320 grit and 2000 grit Shapton as well as a 6000 grit Shapton to finish on. The 320 gets used to clear small knocks into small or odd shaped blades. The Tormek 220/1000 does the primary bevels. The Shapton 2000 does the final primary bevel polish ( not really needed) and the initial secondary bevel, the 6000 does the final polish on the secondary bevel. I have not tried a Tiertiary bevel yet as there seems to be no need. I use an Axminster honeing guide..with wide wheel.

I will be making a stroping device to put in my bench drill on which I will use autosol or a metal polisher soap. I used to use a leather strop with a green soap but have decided that the Shapton 6000 is superior.

Shapton stones are flat, hardwearing, cut quickly and very good but expensive. They produce an end result which is probably no better than King stones though.

I have not tried ceramic stones yet but see no real advantage there. I prefer waterstones to oilstones but you could get a good edge with simple oil stones bought cheaply at Screwfix or Axminster. Its all in the mind. A carpenter friend of mine sharpens his tools on a large flat rock outside his workshop....his edges are very sharp...its all in the mind you see.


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (24 May 2005)

Beech1948 wrote:


> I will be making a stroping device to put in my bench drill on which I will use autosol or a metal polisher soap. I used to use a leather strop with a green soap but have decided that the Shapton 6000 is superior.



Do a search for my belt sander grinder jig. I use the sanding disk for stropping/final honing. I much prefer honing on a flat disk to a wheel since there is less risk of dubbing an edge. My current honing disk is made out of a hook-and-look sanding disk with a glued on layer of chamois leather. I use Veritas green rouge on this. It is just fantastic and, if you get the opportunity to try this out, do it. You will not be disappointed.

I have been using the King 8000 Gold waterstone for the past month and am very pleased with it.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Alf (24 May 2005)

Tsk. A Mod and not using the search facility... [-X A couple of threads here and here. The latter includes some extra search ideas... :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## Noel (24 May 2005)

Searched through that and much more more this morning, perhaps I should have mentioned. But thanks Chris, Mike W and Beech et al. 

Rgds

Noel


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## engineer one (26 May 2005)

hi there i'm new here, and like many of a certain age, returning to hand tools after some years of power tool cabinets etc.
so like every one i have reviewed the various tool sharpening systems. 
bought and tried many, and am still left with some questions.

1/ some tools, say veritas talk about have a preservative on their surfaces,
then they talk about using mineral spirits to remove same. so in uk we do not seem to have mineral spirits available, what do you use instead?

2/ when using some metals on some japanese water stones there seems to be a black type of scum developed on the stone. what is this and how do we avoid it.

3/ i have a tormek which is great, and does a good job, particularly in retrieving old knackered tools. these days, many new tools do not seem too square either so as well as getting them straight and sharp, does anyone have a quick and cheerful jig for ensuring the cutting face is square????

4/ i find that using a king stone after an initial hone on the leather wheel gets a better and smoother rear surface, good mirror!!!

5/ why do suppliers of water stones not give some info within their items for first time users? whatever else you say about DMT, they always give some advice.

6/ final thought for this time, lots of talk in mags about flattening planes etc using "sand paper", don't really understand this since surely metal should be flattened with metal working papers, ie emery and wet and dry?
in my experience many of the silicon oxide papers have very large grit.
other problem is of course how do you decide which grits relate to each other seems every country has its own standard.

7. whoops, forgot. have a stanley 93 plough plane, any bright ideas on how to sharpen the inner curves on the beading cutters???

thanks for the time, hope this helps us all.
paul


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## Philly (26 May 2005)

Welcome aboard Paul!
See if I can help.....
1: That is US speak for white spirits.
2:the black scum is the metal you are removing. Wash it away with extra water.
3: The standard chisel holder jig should produce a square edge as long as the sides are not tapered. Just ensure both knobs are tightened EVENLY or you will have it sharpened out of square.
5: It is a bit poor, I agree! Must be a Japanese thing where they expect if you are buying them you know what they are for. Or maybe everyone in Japan is taught how to use them in Kindergarten?? :lol: :lol: Just joking, there....
6: Wet n' Dry paper is what is being used, don't worry. Just a misnomer again. Oh, and Axminster sell it in grades up to 2500 grit-very fine!!!
7: Need Alf or Bugbear for this one as mine just sits on the shelf.....  
Best regards
Philly


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (26 May 2005)

Hi Paul

You wrote:


> when using some metals on some japanese water stones there seems to be a black type of scum developed on the stone. what is this and how do we avoid it.



The "black type of scum" is the steel filings that were previously part of your blade. Abrasive materials have a habit of attacking steel thingies this way  . Best that you do not do this any more. Alternatively, you can just wipe it off with a bit of water.



> many new tools do not seem too square either so as well as getting them straight and sharp, does anyone have a quick and cheerful jig for ensuring the cutting face is square????



Try the new LV Honing Guide!



> have a stanley 93 plough plane, any bright ideas on how to sharpen the inner curves on the beading cutters???



Mmm. The #93 is a shoulder plane with a straight blade, the #39 (in case you are reversed the numbers) is a dado plane, also with a straight blade.. do you want to check that number again ... #45, #50, #55 ..?

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## DaveL (26 May 2005)

Hi Paul, 

Welcome to the forum.  

I think you will find that what they call mineral spirits the other side of the pond, we call white sprit. 

As for flatterning plane soles, you will find that 'sand paper' is a generic name used for abrasive paper, most of which has nothing to do with the beach. :shock: I use aluminium oxide paper that comes in rolls from Screwfix. 8) 

I have a combination plane that still needs cleaning and sharpening, I think we need a sharpening slip stone that matches the bead in the cutter, no doubt Alf will be along to put me right if thats not how its done.


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## Alf (26 May 2005)

engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> hi there i'm new here... am still left with some questions.


Welcome, Paul, and ask away.



engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> 1/


That one's been covered. 



engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> 2/ when using some metals on some japanese water stones there seems to be a black type of scum developed on the stone. what is this and how do we avoid it.


While amused at the obvious responses, you might also be having trouble with mould on your stones maybe? I don't use them, but I think a drop of bleach in your stone pond is supposed to help?



engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> 3/ i have a tormek


I don't, so "pass"



engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> 4/ i find that using a king stone after an initial hone on the leather wheel gets a better and smoother rear surface, good mirror!!!


Just out of interest, what grit?



engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> 5/ why do suppliers of water stones not give some info within their items for first time users? whatever else you say about DMT, they always give some advice.


Wouldn't help anyway - they'd be in Japanese... :wink:



engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> 6/ final thought for this time, lots of talk in mags about flattening planes etc using "sand paper", don't really understand this since surely metal should be flattened with metal working papers, ie emery and wet and dry?


Sloppy nomenclature. :roll:



engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> in my experience many of the silicon oxide papers have very large grit.
> other problem is of course how do you decide which grits relate to each other seems every country has its own standard.


Wet 'n' Dry for fine grades. Try Aluminium Zirconia belts for coarser grits if you have a lot of material to remove.



engineer one":1yuzra47 said:


> 7. whoops, forgot. have a stanley 93 plough plane, any bright ideas on how to sharpen the inner curves on the beading cutters???


I think we have a model number typo, but for beading cutters a slip stone or abrasive wrapped round an appropriately sized dowel - use a curve slightly tighter than the cutter and try to avoid making a secondary bevel.

Cheers, Alf


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## bugbear (26 May 2005)

> I think we have a model number typo, but for beading cutters a slip stone or abrasive wrapped round an appropriately sized dowel - use a curve slightly tighter than the cutter and try to avoid making a secondary bevel.



I recommend a LONG dowel - the length makes the angle much more controllable. Any one who can sharpen with a 2" slip stone and not dub the bevel is a genius!

BugBear


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## Alf (26 May 2005)

bugbear":jk5z5ylw said:


> Any one who can sharpen with a 2" slip stone and not dub the bevel is a genius!


Why, thank y-

Oh wait, no, I can't. Good tip.  D'you take the blade to the abrasive, or the abrasive to the blade? Just w'ndrin'.

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (26 May 2005)

Not that I'm BB...

Once the profile is sharpened--I hold the blade, profile up, in my carvers vice with its edge pointing towards me and usually use a set of DMT conical diamond hones or a plain stone into the edge of the blade--I only hone the back on a 4000 King stone during use. This replenishes the edge quite well until the next full sharpening is needed.

btw, Shapton has slips of nearly any size you need that you can grind to fit various profiles.

Wood molding planes where the profile has to match precisely I usually go quite some time before altering the profile in a full sharpening. 

I usually reestablish the profile with the blade in the plane, plane held in a vise, blade held snug using the blade's wedge hand tight and use conical diamond hones. While working on the profile I loosen the wedge and slide the blade back in to see if I am keeping the profile.


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## Alf (26 May 2005)

MikeW":fmqhy8lc said:


> Not that I'm BB...


Nobody's perfect, Mike... :lol:



MikeW":fmqhy8lc said:


> Once the profile is sharpened--I hold the blade, profile up, in my carvers vice with its edge pointing towards me and usually use a set of DMT conical diamond hones or a plain stone into the edge of the blade


Yeah, pretty much what I do. Although sometimes I get a better result with the abrasive in the vice and taking the blade to it. Seems to vary from one time to another, which I can't explain at all. :roll: 

Cheers, Alf


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## engineer one (27 May 2005)

hi guys, thanks the quick replies, and some if not all of the info.
seems a good forum 8) 

re the scum, think you are all wrong, but. i bought a new white smooth water stone at ally pally, and used it once, as told how, and immediately 
got this scum. i feel it may be related to the preservatives used on new tools rather than metal filings, and i am certain that it is not a fungal infection. will check more, but since it is so fine, it seems there is another answer, maybe we all need to consider it.

as for the sandpaper etc, i have also been using emery, interesting, many stories about how it is no longer made, seems rather like mdf being banned in the usa, one of those stories used by a manufacturer who wants to promote a new product. i find when finishing the bottom of my planes, really smooth emery, say 4000 gives a great shine.
as for the polish after honing on a tormek i have the smoothest king stone bought from axminster in a dual pack with an 800 or so stone. getting a bit old and battered, aren't we all, but seems good to me. :lol: 

finally re the plough, sitting here with the wallets i got and inside are a stanley part number 12-390 1 1/2 things, plus about 4 different sized 1/8th, 1/2 beading type cutters with the slot in the side at one end which moves the cutter up and down my plough. i understand why people have them on the shelf, but don't use, but surely sometimes you want a little less dust and noise??

thanks again, 
paul


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## MikeW (27 May 2005)

engineer one":2vij5gfy said:


> ...finally re the plough, sitting here with the wallets i got and inside are a stanley part number 12-390 1 1/2 things, plus about 4 different sized 1/8th, 1/2 beading type cutters with the slot in the side at one end which moves the cutter up and down my plough.
> 
> i understand why people have them on the shelf, but don't use, but surely sometimes you want a little less dust and noise??
> 
> ...



Hi Paul,

This sounds like one of the newer Stanley plough planes, maybe the 12-030, 12-052 or the 12-250.

There are probably more frustrated ex-users of combination and or metal plough planes than we can both count. That said, I do use my 55 and Sargent 1080PB for certain tasks. As with any hand tool, the sound of cutting wood is definitely better than the alternative--just not always practical for everyone.

You will find that for anything other than cutting grooves or rebates that it takes very well behaved wood to have it perform well. I try to use only vertical grain poplar or douglas fir (well, cherry too) whenever I have to cut profiles.

I have cut white oak very acceptably, but it too was cvg.

Have fun,


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## Philly (27 May 2005)

Paul
Right-think I got it!
Did you buy the nagura stone to go with your poilishing waterstone?? A dinky little one?
Thats what you need-when using the very fine waterstones you wet the suface and rub the nagura over the surface a few times to make a slurry (this also removes any glazing or grey scum remaining!!!) This gives a bit of lubrication to the blade when sharpenening and also (I believe) gives a finer polish.
Here's a nagura from Axminster..
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... 9&recno=12

Pretty sure this will solve your problem!
Hope this helps
Philly


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## Alf (27 May 2005)

engineer one":36mm68kq said:


> finally re the plough, sitting here with the wallets i got and inside are a stanley part number 12-390 1 1/2 things,


Ah, one of the later ones. I really need to sort out which of those model numbers equates to what - the older ones I've got sussed. It's not the one with a rear handle like a joke dog cowpat is it...? :? 



engineer one":36mm68kq said:


> i understand why people have them on the shelf, but don't use, but surely sometimes you want a little less dust and noise??


Gosh, I don't understand it at all. I use mine often. I'm just a hopeless sucker for them.  

Cheers, Alf


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## Anonymous (27 May 2005)

Noel":2526rdy9 said:


> OK, that's clear enough. Any opinions on Shapton stones, apart from the price? Give up waterstones, messy, too much space etc, but willing to go back to them if best option. What are your current sharpening regimes?
> 
> Noel



DMT dual stone. Medium followed by fine if lots of work required on a new blade, if just re-sharpening after ues, then fine side only. 
Move on to 1000 grit water stone for about a dozen strokes and then 6000 waterstone for 30 storkes and I get a perfect mirror finish on the (very) sharp edge.


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## bugbear (27 May 2005)

> D'you take the blade to the abrasive, or the abrasive to the blade? Just w'ndrin'.



Err. Abrasive to the stone. If the abrasive were fixed, it wouldn't matter how long the dowel was...

BugBear


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## Alf (27 May 2005)

bugbear":3hrjvgd0 said:


> > D'you take the blade to the abrasive, or the abrasive to the blade? Just w'ndrin'.
> 
> 
> 
> Err. Abrasive to the stone. If the abrasive were fixed, it wouldn't matter how long the dowel was...


Well it would, but I see what you mean. That is if you mean abrasive to the _blade_. If it's abrasive to stone then we're at hopeless cross-purposes... :wink: (I know, I keep doing that to you. I'm sorry.  )

Cheers, Alf


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## Mike B (27 May 2005)

Hi 

Several promising mentions here of Shapton stones - are they available from somewhere "our" side of the pond or is this another case of order direct and suffer the double whammy of shipping and C&E...

Mike


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## engineer one (28 May 2005)

yes guys do have a nagura and i am still not sure it gives me the answer i think i want, but will investigate further from a position of knowledge, not guess work.

still interested to know whether anyone has an idea for sharpening older chisels etc, or even cheap ones where you are not sure that the sides are at right angles to the cutting face, indeed some modern names seem to suffer from this too. as i said how do you use the various tormek jigs and get it right if the side is not square??

ref the plough it is a 12-052, but i also acquired the body of a 93, sadly without the box or the blades and extras anyone got a manual i can copy??

final thought on flattening with the new veritas bench planes, do you flatten with the bailey insert in or out?? surely leaving it in will cause problems later,it is bad enough with the moveable front on a lie neilson low angle plane, but this veritas 4 1/2, well i do not know for sure.

thanks again for the help so far, learnt a lot quickly. mind you cannot buy 19 mm float glass in my part of west london!!!!!!!!!!!

paul


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## Midnight (28 May 2005)

> as i said how do you use the various tormek jigs and get it right if the side is not square??



tromek..???? jigs...???? whazzat then..???

Veritas Mk1 jig, some waterstones and a little patience...


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## MikeW (28 May 2005)

engineer one":3kd8l1b0 said:


> ...still interested to know whether anyone has an idea for sharpening older chisels etc, or even cheap ones where you are not sure that the sides are at right angles to the cutting face, indeed some modern names seem to suffer from this too. as i said how do you use the various tormek jigs and get it right if the side is not square??



Paul, you would use the SV-60 jig which is the one for plane blades. You will need to square chisels or plane blades by eye if the sides are not parallel--but you can do this. It isn't hard. After you begin, you can remove the jig from the Tormek and check that you have the chisel face square to the stone by how it is removing steel.

If you do not have the manual you can download one from the torek.com web site.



engineer one":3kd8l1b0 said:


> ...ref the plough it is a 12-052, but i also acquired the body of a 93, sadly without the box or the blades and extras anyone got a manual i can copy??



Stanley still makes replacement blades for the 93. Go to stanleytools.com and then to the planes section. It's on page 3 of the plane section I think. As for instructions, add the blade and I think you can figure it out. Just adjust the blade until you can barely feel it at the opening, try cutting a piece of scrap wood. Adjust for a deeper or light cut from there.

You can both adjust the mouth opening as well as remove the top/front to make it a bullnose plane.

Take care,


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## Alf (28 May 2005)

engineer one":2i1yytkz said:


> final thought on flattening with the new veritas bench planes, do you flatten with the bailey insert in or out??


_¿qué?_ Not following you at all. :? 

Cheers, Alf


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## engineer one (28 May 2005)

sorry alf, must learn more about these damn things.
when you look at the sole of my 4 1/2 veritas, which is new
the frog, which i understand is a bailey type,? comes through
the sole near the mouth, so the question is whne you 
flatten the sole, do you leave this bit in or not, is that
any clearer??( i know mud )

i am asking because although logic says with it in, one is worried 
about abrasive getting into the join and mucking it up later.

thanks mike, will try the 60 jig which i have, and see again,
i have been using it and assuming that if i have the sides square to the
base, then the edge will also be square, but since on some tools the
two sides are not parallel, this does not appear to be the case.
i assume that the flat surface on the tormek jig is supposed to be
at right angles to the locating pieces within the jig near the tightening screws, so one could ensure that an edge was parallel to that.

finally, i have both dmt and water stones, but since i am working my way through a lot of cutting edges, getting them into shape, i decided to 
make part of my life easier, so i bought the tormek. i realise to some that is a crime, but "sh** " there are more things in life than sharpening, like actually finishing the furniture or items designed.

have a good holiday weekend
paul :lol:


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## MikeW (28 May 2005)

Hi Paul,

You need to leave the plane assembled, including having the blade and the cap tight but make sure to retract it so the abrasize doesn't touch the edge  . 

The reason is that the whole sole of the plane needs to be flattened together else the lower portion of the frog which comprises part of the sole would otherwise stick out below the rest of the sole. 

You "need" to have the blade in and tightened as normal (but raised up) so that the tension upon the frog is the same as when in use. The word need is in quotes because while this is recommended practice I have flattened soles vefore without the blade in a plane and not measured any difference.

After you are finished flattening any plane's sole, it is a good idea to disassemble and clean it, as well as lightly oil the moving parts.

Hope this helps. Have fun,


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## Alf (28 May 2005)

Ah, right, Paul. I get it, and Mike has it covered. Although does the sole actually need flattening? I mean go ahead if you fancy to, but be careful you don't do more harm than good, that's all. I tend to err on the side of caution and never flatten anything unless I have to. Or is that erring on the side of laziness...? :-k Oh, and it's not a Bailey frog, just for future info. Dunno what you'd call it really. Weird? :wink: 

Cheers, Alf


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## MikeW (28 May 2005)

Alf, my LV #6 needed it. The bottom of the frog (they do call it that, just not the Bailey part) was a couple thousands proud. So with the blade adjusted for a cut you could actually feel the teeter-toter effect.

My other LV planes (4 1/2, LA smoother) both had soles flatter than I can probably (care) to make a plane's sole.

So Paul, Alf brings up a good point. Make sure the sole needs it before you even bother.


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## engineer one (29 May 2005)

thanks mike and alf, appreciate the input, so maybe the next question is how flat is flat and what do you need ?
i appreciate dc's work etc, but it does seem to be over gilding the lily,
what is an acceptable flattness, and what is a quick and easy way to check, honestly do that many people still use feeler gauges, ( not sure my mechanic knows what one is).

has any one devised a quick and easy way to decide whether the 
sole of your plane is acceptably flat and over what portion of the plane
should it be. seems to me that as long as it is flat for maybe 1/2 inch 
front and rear and also each side of the opening this ought to do, if the rest of the sole is hollow, but obviously not if it is bowed. less friction?

what is the best type of marker to use on a base to then rub on say a piece of paper to see what is rubbed off??

know this is nit picking, but so much is written about sharpening these days you sometimes wonder when anyone actually uses the tools to cut wood!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks again
paul


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## Midnight (29 May 2005)

Paul...

its been my experience that if yer talkin about the likes of Stanley, Record et al... it's not a question of whether soles are out or not.... but by how much...

It's been my experience that when dealing with Lie Nielsen, Clifton or Lee Valley, they're good to go straight outa the box. If not, each of them will willingly exchange to your satisfaction...

by all means check if you like; a straight edge held against a light will do for a quick reference.. engineers blue on a sole plate will give the ultimate check...


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (29 May 2005)

> i bought the tormek. i realise to some that is a crime, but "sh** " there are more things in life than sharpening



Hi Paul

Using a Tormek is not the crime - not continuing to hone on stones/paper/etc to lower micron levels after it is the crime.




> has any one devised a quick and easy way to decide whether the
> sole of your plane is acceptably flat and over what portion of the plane
> should it be.



Just to emphasize what has already been stated - The three vital areas are the toe, the area immediately in front of the mouth (not the area beind), and the heels of the plane. When planing, the sole must register on two of these at all times. 

To check on this, the quickest way is to paint those areas with engineers blue, or a waterproof marker (magic marker, or Texta, as they are called in Oz), and run the sole over a flat length of 360 grit looking for shine that denotes the high points. I do not believe a straight edge is good enough for this job, although it may afford you a sense of psychological well-being.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## MikeW (29 May 2005)

Hi Paul,

Short of perfection (which is pretty much unattainable) flat is relative. I think Mike's (Midnight's) suggestion of just using a known straight edge against a light is sufficient.

If you have a reference "plate" to use, something as simple as a cinder block, cast iron table saw table or jointer table, you can simply place some 220 grit wet/dry paper on it and rub the sole back and forth a few times and look at the scratch pattern to see highs/lows. Then you can make a decision how much to do.

You are correct that there are critical areas, in forn, beside and behind the mouth...but it often doesn't take long to work up through 120 grit to 320 grit and simply make a consistent scrath pattern over the sole.

For me, that's flat enough.


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## engineer one (30 May 2005)

hi mike, thought for the night, when you checked your LV 4 1/2, was that portion of the frog which stuck through the sole actually level, or was it recessed slightly, seems on mine it is recessed!

maybe it does not need to be level???
paul :?


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## MikeW (30 May 2005)

Hi Paul,

The LN 4 1/2 and the LV LA smoother were both more than flat, at least on a granite reference plate they both produced an even scratch pattern right off using 320 wet/dry paper.

The LV #6 which has the frog as part of the sole was actually proud (stuck below) the sole of the plane by just enough that it produced a scratch pattern that revealed it was alternately hitting the toe and the heel while hitting the part of the frog that is suppose to be level with the sole.

But, it only took maybe 5-10 minutes tops starting at 80 and going up through the grits (120, 180, 220, 320) to produce an even pattern on the sole.

All that to say, if mine had been ever so slightly above the sole *and* using first 320 grit paper the rest of the sole had even scratches I would have stopped right there, disassembled the plane, cleaned it well, lightly oiled it and put it back together.

In other words, as Derek said, directly behind the blade is not terribly important.

Have fun!


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## engineer one (25 Jun 2005)

have checked out a couple more of the posts on sharpening, and thought i would add another 2 pennorth.

i use a tormek, being someone who has other things to do, i find it a valuable tool, recently sharpened a bahco large chisel, after making a shiny back, found it very useful for chopping off large bits of mdf when back cutting skirting. stays sharp some time too.
i see many people question the value of shiny surfaces, and wonder whether any real scientific work has gone into discovering whether a shiny back actually has any value. lots of work in american mags about for instance dowels over biscuits, but so far only hearsay about sharpening.

my engineering background suggests that polishing will make life easier, but has anyone actually tested it with measuringdevices. 

as for the japanese being unconcerned about shine, remember , japaneses tools have two kinds of metal, hence the lack of need for shine.
or are we all really just over examining our navels???
paul


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## MikeW (25 Jun 2005)

engineer one":1td6k6bq said:


> ...major snip...
> or are we all really just over examining our navels???
> paul


Hi Paul,

Maybe, maybe not. The real test is simply how does it cut? For myself, if I can take a softwood such as pine or fir and shave a thin shaving without tearout off the end of the board, I could care less how much shine it has.

Initial cut and edge durability are more important to me. Next is how quickly can I restore/hone the edge--which is why I (mostly) prefer high carbon steel for my plane blades.

But it is important for some and it is most often achievable regardless of the type of steel. I'm just lazy :lol:


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## Anonymous (25 Jun 2005)

engineer one":13kef6pr said:


> have checked out a couple more of the posts on sharpening, and thought i would add another 2 pennorth.
> 
> i use a tormek, being someone who has other things to do, i find it a valuable tool, recently sharpened a bahco large chisel, after making a shiny back, found it very useful for chopping off large bits of mdf when back cutting skirting. stays sharp some time too.
> i see many people question the value of shiny surfaces, and wonder whether any real scientific work has gone into discovering whether a shiny back actually has any value. lots of work in american mags about for instance dowels over biscuits, but so far only hearsay about sharpening.
> ...



Paul

generally, the shiny back is not quoted in relation to absolute flatness. The point behind a shiny back is that the scratches (there are always scratches) are as small as possible which then allows a very sharp and even edge to be honed on the cutting face.

With a chisel, the back must clearly be flat to allow it to register against the wood when paring etc., thus the entire back is generally polished.

With a plane iron, only the 1mm or so of the back of the blade near the cutting edge needs to be polished as there is no registering of the blade against the wood when you use the blade - DCs ruler trick.




> as for the japanese being unconcerned about shine, remember , japaneses tools have two kinds of metal, hence the lack of need for shine.
> or are we all really just over examining our navels???



I do not understand this comment. I have 8 japanese chisels from 3 manufacturers and each came with an absolute immaculate mirror polish on the back of the blade


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## Philly (25 Jun 2005)

> as for the japanese being unconcerned about shine


Japanese waterstones don't always produce a mirror shine (something more akin to a dull grey) but don't misinterpret this as dull. The waterstones cut with a more consistent scratch pattern-it just doesn't "look" as shiny.
I believe Keith S has been doing some serious sharpening research recently and came to this very result-maybe he can enlighten us further?
Cheers
Philly


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## Sharpdon (25 Jun 2005)

I agree shiny is not a specific requirement, as it often masks a rounded edge. Japanese masters want to see the fine scratches to the edge of the cutting tool, so they know the condition of their tool. I did some research (and more is in process) about the use of Silicon Carbide in sharpening, the Tormek ground and stropped edge, and water stones, compared to the edges I achieve with the Lap-Sharp system. Pictures of the results may be seen in a paper at http://www.woodartistry.com/Sharpening%20Process2.pdf
The proof to me is also in the cutting action of the tool. For me, achieving shavings of .001 is fine enough. I can easily do that with a 1 micron edge finish.


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## MikeW (26 Jun 2005)

Hi Shardon,

Are you affiliated by chance with Lap-Sharp? 

I have read the "paper" you refer to. I assume the results of the Lap-Sharp are unbiased, but it is an advertisement of sorts, isn't it? I'm not so sure of the results and comments concerning the other methods, however.

There is at least one or two other vendors there that contribute on the forum and I both appreciate their contributions and the fact they identify themselves in their sig lines as such.

Not necessary to identify oneself as such, but it does make the reader aware of the affiliation for fairly processing the information.

Hey, aren't you glad you don't have to pay for my opinion? :lol:


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## Alf (26 Jun 2005)

Sharpdon":1kcwkls8 said:


> The proof to me is also in the cutting action of the tool. For me, achieving shavings of .001 is fine enough. I can easily do that with a 1 micron edge finish.


1 micron. That's, what, somewhere between a 6000 and 8000 waterstone? Well yeah, I should hope that _would_ be sharp enough. I can get sub 0.001 shavings with the edge from an old natural oilstone, which is sure to be less fine than that. :wink:

Mike, fair point there. I'd made the connection, but it's as well for all readers to be aware.

Cheers, Alf


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## Noel (26 Jun 2005)

"Not necessary to identify oneself as such, but it does make the reader aware of the affiliation for fairly processing the information"

I'm with you Mike on this and Alf. Don, maybe a clearer ID would be fairer.
Having said that all your contributions and points of view are more than welcome.

Noel

PS Maybe change Windsor to Windsor, Ca. in your profile. I'm sure you wouldn't want some readers to think you're from Windsor ,Berks, UK.....


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## Sharpdon (26 Jun 2005)

Fair enough. I have updated my profile to show Windsor, CA. Yes, I designed and manufacture the Lap-Sharp, but my input about sharpening is based upon what I have learned in research, not to promote the Lap-Sharp or any tool on a forum. I don't think that is the place to promote ones products, unless specifically asked about some feature or comparison. Even then, I prefer to send a private message. 

There are many ways to achieve sharp tools. I spent years doing it with water stones. I wanted a method that was faster, but gave the same or better results, but I have a fair size collection of tools I want sharp. Not everyone needs a powered sharpening system. The paper I wrote shows some sharpening faults and suggests ways to correct them, especially with scary sharp. There is much good information on forums, but also some that leads one to what I consider poor results. I am still continuing my research, and will be glad to share the results when completed. Accurate information on sharpening will save woodworkers time and provide satisfactory results with whatever method they choose. I for one am working to contribute to that objective.

An 8000 (JIS) water stone is 1.2 microns, so 1 micron surface does enable one to easily achieve sub .001 shavings, if the bevel was not rounded in the sharpening process.


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## MikeW (27 Jun 2005)

Sharpdon":3j51h9vn said:


> Fair enough. I have updated my profile to show Windsor, CA.


Hi Shardon,

Like Alf, I knew who you were. Thank you for altering your profile to reflect where you are.



Sharpdon":3j51h9vn said:


> Yes, I designed and manufacture the Lap-Sharp, but my input about sharpening is based upon what I have learned in research, not to promote the Lap-Sharp or any tool on a forum. I don't think that is the place to promote ones products, unless specifically asked about some feature or comparison. Even then, I prefer to send a private message...


And a darn fine looking machine it is. I own a Tormek that I use for regrinding angles and bevels that I muck up by quickly honing by hand. Also, my wife is a turner and she uses it a lot. It works very well for her work.

When I purchased my Tormek, cost was not an issue. Had I known about Lap-Sharp then I certainly would have investigated it. I do like horizontal platter sharpening systems in principle. But the ones available at the time were either limited in their functionality, expensive or a hassle to replace the wheels, or like the other current horizontal systems avalable a little too light-duty for day in day out use.

My opinion concerning representing information about your product is go ahead and do it. Look at the signature line in the message from Terry Smart of Chestnut Products in the link below. 

While I cannot tell you how to represent yourself, his signature line is open and fair. He also gives good advice as I assume you will.

http://forums.ukworkshop.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5456&start=0

Again, thank you for joining us and we look forward to your input.


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## Anonymous (27 Jun 2005)

Don

I read the "paper" and it is pure advertising. I also visited your website and wondered why it is devoid of pricing? Particularly for the abrasive sheets which I imagine are consumables?


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## MikeW (27 Jun 2005)

Tony":18pv00oq said:


> Don
> 
> I read the "paper" and it is pure advertising. I also visited your website and wondered why it is devoid of pricing? Particularly for the abrasive sheets which I imagine are consumables?


Hi Tony,

I'm sure Sharpdon will be along sooner or later. My understanding is the stuff is sold through the 3 distributors on the site.

Here's a link to Japan Woodworker for the prices of everything...
http://www.thejapanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=13107


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## Sharpdon (27 Jun 2005)

Tony: See the page on abrasives for the pricing.
http://www.woodartistry.com/Lap-SharpAbrasives.htm

Mike is also correct, that the Japan Woodworker and Woodworker's Supply also have the abrasive prices listed.

I don't see what you see in the article I wrote, except for the very last section, where I provide some comparisons of the Lap-Sharp. The entire rest of the article can be used for improving any method of sharpening mentioned.


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## MikeW (27 Jun 2005)

Sharpdon":3dzbztk3 said:


> ...I don't see what you see in the article I wrote, except for the very last section, where I provide some comparisons of the Lap-Sharp. The entire rest of the article can be used for improving any method of sharpening mentioned.


Shardon, the above is not accurate.

The paper is flawed in its criteria, its subjective prejudiced viewpoint, and the fact it was authored by the seller. Take a read through L. Lee's book on sharpening. I think he does a good job of keeping things in perspective.

I took less than 5 minutes to mark-up the "paper" in Acrobat and add a few notes to illustrate the paragraph above. Do you want me to email it to you?


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## engineer one (27 Jun 2005)

gee guys did not expect to start ww3/4 or 5.
however it does express the major problem for all newer, or less
frequent users of woodworking products, there are so many new and 
different sharpening systems, that were we to buy and use them all,
we would never get any work done, wood or other types, including
pleasing the govt with their red tape.

if you have the time after originally sharpening your tools to go the
waterstone route every time, then those methods are i guess good,
but if my recent experience post tormek is anything to go by, then the time saved in resharpening is worth the money spent on buying the system.

as for the comment about the japanese, that i made, on another link people are talking about japanese woodworkers not being very happy with shiny backs, and i wonder how much of this is to do with the old 
japanese technique of one law for internal use, and another for export where the customers can be convinced to pay more for a shiny object???

not a complaint just a comment. seems to me the appropriate way of sharpening is to have a tool which does the job you want when you want it too, and which takes little re-fettling to bring back to top condition.
the biggest gripe now seems to be finding new tools which do not need major fettling. fine when they are new and unbranded, but major names and cost, that should be a no-no, but then we would have to shoot all the accountants.

thanks again for interesting and informative comments.
all the best
paul
ps mike w, must get my rat working soon too.


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## MikeW (27 Jun 2005)

engineer one":1qizrvgp said:


> gee guys did not expect to start ww3/4 or 5.
> however it does express the major problem for all newer, or less
> frequent users of woodworking products, there are so many new and
> different sharpening systems, that were we to buy and use them all,
> we would never get any work done,...


Ah Paul, there's not a war. Certainly you didn't cause anything--other than encouraging people to respond.

I think that sharpening is like most of woodworking. Play with a couple methods for accomplishing what you need, pick one and work with it for some time.

Any sharpening method will work using about any stone/grinder/sandpaper/etc. The thing is, in general they don't all work for a particular person. Begin with what you have or can get on the cheap. Stick with it long enough to form your own opinion. If you need to at that time, move on to something else.

If you can, visit another woodworker. Watch them using their method and or tools. Give it a try with one of your own tools with them helping you learn what it is they are doing.

It's not a race. You have plenty of time and it is almost guaranteed you'll go through a couple methods and tools for sharpening over your lifetime.

It all comes down to this. Can I, over time and through practice, get results that are acceptable to me?


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## Anonymous (27 Jun 2005)

Sharpdon":1d16fll8 said:


> Tony: See the page on abrasives for the pricing.
> http://www.woodartistry.com/Lap-SharpAbrasives.htm
> 
> Mike is also correct, that the Japan Woodworker and Woodworker's Supply also have the abrasive prices listed.
> ...



Thanks Don

I would suggest you add pricing VERY clearly on the site. I am not alone in quickly leaving a site where there is no price mentioned with the thought 'if they can't be bothered to tell me the price, then I can't be bothered to buy it'. I carry this to shops too, no price on display=no sale to yours truly :wink: 

For what it's worth, I like the look of the product but suspect the lack of price indicates that I could not afford it


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## engineer one (8 Aug 2005)

more thoughts about sharpening since it seems to be like the fisherman's tale, it gets more distorted by the telling.
as posted earlier, i recently did a deal with a mate who is a chippy and whose marples chisels were not lasting the pace. i sold him some dutch ones i had bought as remainder stock sharpened on my tormek 2006.
he has now bought some more from me, because they have lasted since just before my last post. 
so i wonder whether some of it is to do with cabinetmakers wanting a "Perfect finish" whilst a chippy just wants to cut a number of hinge recessess for the longest time between re-sharpening.

i have recently read the DC article in the american magazine popular woodworking about putting curves on blades by hand, any bright ideas
about doing it effectively on the tormek?
I also read the report in the english mag which had good reports on the tormek also. having just spent this weekend flattening, then sharpening and honing about 15 blades, my hands ache, but the tormek work does leave me at least with a good blade that cuts what i want . re-sharpening will i think now be easier, but it was a pain.

steps. initial flattening on side of tormek.
2/coarse waterestone. 3/ king 6000.
then 4/ sharpening on tormek stone, 
5. wire edge removal, and rear polish on tormek honing wheel 
6. polish of cutting face.
then having figured where the bits go on my LN low angle planes, nice thin shavings with little effort for this old lazy so and so. but then i am not a full time professional. need to earn money too.

seems to me what this shows is that time is valuable a commodity and sharpening should take as little as possible allowing for the results you want.

thanks again for the help guys
paul
:lol:


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## Alf (10 Aug 2005)

Scribing stuff from this thread now here.

Winding sticks here.

Cheers, Alf


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