# Help me with my college assignment



## HawkEye (5 Jun 2010)

Hello chaps. 

As pathetic as this might sound to someone who actually knows the answers, I have spent the entire day trying to figure out exactly how this senario fits together. 

Here are the details of my assignment:

I have devised a single story rear extension that will be built at the rear of my imaginary house. Lets say for theory sake that the house is owned by John who wants a conservatory built onto his house. 

John has been to see a builder who knows an architect that can draft John a plan of the design he wants. The builder says he wants X amount for all the building work. John agrees to the price, and so the Architect sends away the drawings to the local planning authority requested by the builder acting on behalf of the client. The plans recieve full planning permission. 

*IS THIS CORRECT? IS THIS HOW IT WOULD WORK IN REAL LIFE??*

The building gets underway and towards the end of the project John decides that he wants to change the specification of the windows from timber to uPVC. This will require planning permission. So John goes back to the architect who drew and submitted the plans, and says he wants uPVC windows. The Architect comes up with an architect's instruction also known as a variation order. 

Now... what I have to do for this assignment is to explain HOW the architect's instruction issued affects the project in terms of _design modifications, cost, apperance, and how contractors will need to adopt these changes_

I'm not entirely sure if the right people are interacting, and whether John should seek out an Architect, AND THEN a builder. Or whether it is good practice to rely on one builder to do everything, which is usually common practice, but is it right? I'm not sure what professionals would need to be involved either. Would you need a quantity surveory for a small extension? I know you will need a Structural Engineer to calculate the foundation requirements. 

I need to write a page for this dung and it needs to be specific to the senario. I think I need to talk about what type of documents would need to change... but what documents are there besides a written contract between the client and the contractor?? My understanding is so sketchy.. 

I'm in real need of help here as I cannot find anything this basic, everything in terms of literature is about complex RIBA management/ construction projects, nothing for a simple ammendment to a small conservatory.. 

Any help really really really appreciated.


----------



## matthewwh (5 Jun 2010)

Sounds like a job for Mike Garnham, pop him a PM and I'm sure he would be glad to assist.


----------



## Anonymous (5 Jun 2010)

John gets the architects fee for changing his mind half way through the build and decides to stick with what he agreed in the first place . The builder doesnt get told so buys new plastic windows and knocks the fella making the timber ones . The builder then goes crawling back to the joiner giving some rubbish about being ill and fits the same windows that John asked for in the first place .


----------



## HawkEye (5 Jun 2010)

Don't take the water.


----------



## wizer (5 Jun 2010)

jfcundercover":g7oso3dt said:


> John gets the architects fee for changing his mind half way through the build and decides to stick with what he agreed in the first place . The builder doesnt get told so buys new plastic windows and knocks the fella making the timber ones . The builder then goes crawling back to the joiner giving some rubbish about being ill and fits the same windows that John asked for in the first place .



Thanks for the promotion Jase. Why don't you come and say hello?


----------



## Oryxdesign (5 Jun 2010)

There is no hard and fast rules. If you want to go and see the planning officer with photographs and hand drawn plans you can do the first bit yourself. You will probably then need a structural engineer and an architect to do the calcs and detailed plans (you may not ned these) Then you can get a quote from your builder. After which you will need to get the job signed off by the building officer who is not necessarily from the council as you can get it subbed out.
My friend who is a photographer for a magazine wanted to do the same thing himself. He asked me for some advice and eventually photoshopped in his extension, providing before and after images. His application has apparently been pinned to the wall in the office as a good example of how to make a planning appllication.

Hope that helps Simon


----------



## Anonymous (6 Jun 2010)

> Thanks for the promotion Jase. Why don't you come and say hello?




Ive tried Tom but both my email and name are already taken so i cant get in .


Hawkeye,
In real life the change of material for the windows wouldnt need to go back to the planning dept . They are not interested in the materials used just that they comply with u-value regulations . If it was a conservation area then thats another story .
Some people for small extentions have thier own architect but most builders will reccomend one for the customer to use .


----------



## Oryxdesign (6 Jun 2010)

wizer":nm2nb655 said:


> jfcundercover":nm2nb655 said:
> 
> 
> > John gets the architects fee for changing his mind half way through the build and decides to stick with what he agreed in the first place . The builder doesnt get told so buys new plastic windows and knocks the fella making the timber ones . The builder then goes crawling back to the joiner giving some rubbish about being ill and fits the same windows that John asked for in the first place .
> ...



I'm not sure if it's a typo or a comment on Your sexuality Tom but he hs written "the homo woodworking"


----------



## TrimTheKing (6 Jun 2010)

HawkEye":18bvarms said:


> Don't take the water.


The irony...


----------



## HawkEye (6 Jun 2010)

Thank you Oxy and Jfcundercover for making this slightly clearly. Managed to pad out three quarters of a page on this, so hopefully it will suffice. Haven't really got answers to all the questions I have but know enough through research to make educated conclusions. If anyone would like to mention the contracts involved I would appreciate that. These days do builders just write an estimate on a bit of ripped off paper, sign it, and then give it to the client? Or are there certain mandatory bits of paper that are required by law, even for a client - contractor procurement? If so what are these bits of paper? Do building control leave paper work every time they visit the site? 

Trim the King what are you implying?


----------



## Oryxdesign (6 Jun 2010)

I think these days most builders have a contract, probably a standard document pulled off the net, but it isn't a legal requirement. I would not use a builder without a contract in place.
Because of programs on the telly folks are more enlightened now and estimates are more formal.
I have never been left any paperwork by building control, they never seem to look at very much in detail. I think they pick one thing to be there specialist subject and look at that carefully, sometimes it might be structural sometimes drainage.

I am not an expert in this but I do on average one project per year that requires building control, they have seen the drawings first and I suspect that if I made a design mistake it would be picked up then. I asked the last guy who came round about how he inspected and he implied that you could tell a lot from the organisation of the site.

Hope thats helpful but I'm sure somebody much more qualified will be along soon.
Simon


----------



## Chems (6 Jun 2010)

HawkEye":1p2nwb4y said:


> Trim the King what are you implying?



Ask us to do your work for you then be rude. But that's just a guess. I could be wrong. 

Mike Garnham is the man you want. You'd need to email him thou as he left the site for a while.


----------



## Anonymous (6 Jun 2010)

Trim has it spot on with his description, that what happens.


anyway, the architect will only issue a variation order if he is acting as a project manager on behalf of the client (john) throughout the project.


In the commercial world had this scenario happened the client knows that he/she will have to pay twice for the supply and once for the fit, or twice for everything if the originals had been fitted also.

we had it recently on a big retail store, we had built an internal lobby, all finished, 25 thousand pounds worth of heaters, 15 thousand pound doors, all the steels, electrics, lights, drylining, all painted etc etc (roughly 80 grands worth of work) and 2 days before handover they decided that they wanted to have it outside. We were then issued a signed variation order to rip it all out, so effectively that means upon final account, we will get paid for putting it all in and then ripping it down again.

great huh!!!


----------



## HawkEye (6 Jun 2010)

Cheers Oxy. Seems a little like I'm expected to talk about the documentation for a much larger organisation but given the context of this senario it dosen't tie in at all. Its hardly as if a multi-million pound company is going to be doing rear exenstions for a few grand. So I don't think I would be doing the right thing if I talked about quantity surveyors, and architecutal ammendments and all that for such a small rennovation. Keep it simple. Include a few references to building control and the types of communication, verbal written, possible arranged meetings, possible e-mail of a few drawings, dung like that. I should be alright. 

Chems. I'm not being rude. Just don't have time to make a laughing stock of myself, especially for people that really have no intention of helping me anyway. Not everyone who asks for advice is some snotty kid who spends most of his day playing xbox and browsing porn sites. TrimtheKing seems to think that I fall into this category. Pardon me for not letting myself be pigeon holed.


----------



## HawkEye (6 Jun 2010)

Cheers Mark that's useful. Need to mention cost in terms of the contractor and that he'll be laughing as a result of a variation order!


----------



## Karl (6 Jun 2010)

HawkEye":13jxl8nl said:


> Chems. I'm not being rude. Just don't have time to make a laughing stock of myself, especially for people that really have no intention of helping me anyway. Not everyone who asks for advice is some snotty kid who spends most of his day playing xbox and browsing porn sites. TrimtheKing seems to think that I fall into this category. Pardon me for not letting myself be pigeon holed.



There's a book in the local library - "How To Make Friends And Influence People". You should read it sometime.

Cheers

Karl


----------



## HawkEye (6 Jun 2010)

Hardly.


----------



## Anonymous (6 Jun 2010)

Karl":2ufhiuet said:


> HawkEye":2ufhiuet said:
> 
> 
> > Chems. I'm not being rude. Just don't have time to make a laughing stock of myself, especially for people that really have no intention of helping me anyway. Not everyone who asks for advice is some snotty kid who spends most of his day playing xbox and browsing porn sites. TrimtheKing seems to think that I fall into this category. Pardon me for not letting myself be pigeon holed.
> ...



Thats actually a great book, ive read it and is pretty damn fascinating. So i wouldn't knock it hawkeye.


----------



## Digit (6 Jun 2010)

The salesman's bible.

Roy.


----------



## studders (6 Jun 2010)

Karl":132aads1 said:


> [
> There's a book in the local library - "How To Make Friends And Influence People". You should read it sometime.
> 
> Cheers
> ...



I wonder if they have the alternative "How to get people to pineapple off an leave you alone"?

:lol:


----------



## TheTiddles (6 Jun 2010)

studders":x8iamsif said:


> Karl":x8iamsif said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



I wrote it, do you want a signed extract??! :lol: 

Aidan


----------



## Chems (6 Jun 2010)

I wouldn't worry about it. Isn't JFCundercover that guy who keeps getting banned? He's a troll isn't he?


----------



## TrimTheKing (6 Jun 2010)

HawkEye":1u36dz2c said:


> Not everyone who asks for advice is some snotty kid who spends most of his day playing xbox and browsing porn sites. TrimtheKing seems to think that I fall into this category. Pardon me for not letting myself be pigeon holed.


I'll respectfully refer you back to this, and this.

A couple of examples of where my opinion of you was formed, and clearly little appears to have changed...

I'm not going to get into a stupid petty squabble, but don't expect to turn up here, ask us to do your 'homework' for you, then tell someone not to take the water when they actually gave you a perfect 'real life' example of the situation you asked about.


----------



## mtr1 (6 Jun 2010)

Chems":2g1mywzu said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. Isn't JFCundercover that guy who keeps getting banned? He's a troll isn't he?



JFCundercover descibed what actually does happen in the real world of building, I too have known what he descibes to be very accurate Chems.


----------



## Lons (6 Jun 2010)

HawkEye":2i238ubw said:


> Thank you Oxy and Jfcundercover for making this slightly clearly. Managed to pad out three quarters of a page on this, so hopefully it will suffice. Haven't really got answers to all the questions I have but know enough through research to make educated conclusions. If anyone would like to mention the contracts involved I would appreciate that. These days do builders just write an estimate on a bit of ripped off paper, sign it, and then give it to the client? Or are there certain mandatory bits of paper that are required by law, even for a client - contractor procurement? If so what are these bits of paper? Do building control leave paper work every time they visit the site?
> 
> Trim the King what are you implying?



Hi

You've got most of the answers but as a small builder, (most of my jobs are under £40k), I might be able to shed some light.

* For standard extensions to existing properties it might be desirable but is not essential to employ an architect.

* Detailed plans are not required for planning submission but those submitted must comply with requirements (can be viewed on L/A website).

* Detailed drawings are not required by building control although they much prefer them. You can often proceed under building notice which receives the same attention and visits from the BCO. If structural calcs are required for roofs or steelwork etc they must be provided.

* Visits are at specific stages of work, e.g excavation, founds, DPC, first fix etc. and conditions of ventilation and insulation must be satisfied. You will receive a set of cards before work commences.
The BCO might not seem to look at much but they are trained to observe and a good one will always pick up short cuts. Their job is to ensure the work is to the correct standards and will do all they can to help the builder achieve that. They also tend to know local builders and will react according to that knowledge.
TV progs only help reputable companies like mine but of course the media are interested only in what makes good tv and the number of cowboys are minimal as a % of those in business.
No paperwork is left at a visit but records are completed at the office.

* Contracts are not a requirement but a reputable company will always give a professional and very detailed estimate to form the basis of a contract. I do not always provide one but ALL my work is referal or to regular customers and I turn down more than I accept. Saying that, a formal contract is desirable as much to the builder as the customer and removes misunderstandings about what is actually expected.

From a tradesmans' point of view, there are actually very few projects which progress exactly as planned and the dreaded words: "just while you're here" or "I've been thinking", not to mention the apprehension of reading a note pinned to the wall when you start work :roll: is an occupational hazzard.

Detailed plans also make it much quicker and easier for a builder to price a job.

Hope a little of that helps and good luck with the assignment

Bob


----------



## studders (6 Jun 2010)

TheTiddles":9ts4q962 said:


> studders":9ts4q962 said:
> 
> 
> > Karl":9ts4q962 said:
> ...



If you could just précis the important bits that would be nice. :lol:


----------



## studders (6 Jun 2010)

Chems":2rmxo4mm said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. Isn't JFCundercover that guy who keeps getting banned?
> He's a troll isn't he?



Yes, though I'm not sure why.
No.


HTH


----------



## big soft moose (7 Jun 2010)

studders":p90yrnk8 said:


> TheTiddles":p90yrnk8 said:
> 
> 
> > studders":p90yrnk8 said:
> ...



there is a book called "how to lose freinds and alienate people" but i was under the impression that certain posters might have already read that one


----------



## Doug B (7 Jun 2010)

big soft moose":3dzza23k said:


> there is a book called "how to lose freinds and alienate people" but i was under the impression that certain posters might have already read that one




You certainly seem to be familiar with this publication moosey, not one i`ve heard of.


----------



## big soft moose (7 Jun 2010)

Doug B":2qxgzasr said:


> big soft moose":2qxgzasr said:
> 
> 
> > there is a book called "how to lose freinds and alienate people" but i was under the impression that certain posters might have already read that one
> ...



http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Lose-Friend ... 0349114854

there was a film as well - joking aside its a good book.

and actually my bible would be more along the lines of " how to not give a dung what (most) people think"

the precis being (as jimi had in his sig line) "_be who you are and say what you think, cos those who matter dont mind, and those as mind dont matter_"


----------



## Mreagleeyes (8 Jun 2010)

HawkEye":1d88sywa said:


> Don't take the water.



Your arrogance astounds me. I'm sure this was a site for WOODwork. I read your post earlier and could not make heads or tails of it, something about PVC & wooden framed windows. Try Google.
I have no answer too your question, but what would have made me read more and take an interest was some simple pleasentries such as this as a title!. 

"Help me with my college assignment".

How about?, 

"Help needed with some college work, thanks guys in advance".

Just my view.


----------



## Doug B (8 Jun 2010)

big soft moose":1n1icywz said:


> and actually my bible would be more along the lines of " how to not give a dung what (most) people think"




Yep, i find that with a lot of the younger generation, a total disrespect of others, they just plough on doing exactly as they want regardless of the consequences to others.

Hay ho way of the world, what`s worrying is i am turning into me dad :lol: :lol:


----------



## Digit (8 Jun 2010)

Yep! Strong on rights and weak on responsibilities, but welcome to the club dad! 

Roy.


----------



## big soft moose (8 Jun 2010)

Doug B":229xlh93 said:


> big soft moose":229xlh93 said:
> 
> 
> > and actually my bible would be more along the lines of " how to not give a dung what (most) people think"
> ...



I supose i should be flattered that you think i'm in the "younger" generation (i'm 37), but for the record i dont have a total disrespect for others - I respect, and have the respect of my freinds and colleagues. But I treat as i find - so if someone shows no respect for me or indeed for anyone else then I will treat them as they deserve, ie like the twunt they are, and quite rightly not give a flying **** what they think


----------



## Gary (8 Jun 2010)

Bless Hawkeye, he does make it entertaining. :lol:


----------



## Karl (8 Jun 2010)

Gary":1z8fn4to said:


> Bless Hawkeye, he does make it entertaining. :lol:



:lol:


----------



## Gary (8 Jun 2010)

Shame he don't send us all nice PM's.

Trims one lucky dude.


----------



## big soft moose (8 Jun 2010)

Gary":iga1jp38 said:


> Shame he don't send us all nice PM's.
> 
> Trims one lucky dude.



according to what trim said on the haven, hawkeye dissected trims personallity at length then insulted his little girl - great behaviour and really well calculated to make us like him and help him do his college work (which presumably he is too lazy or stupid to do himself) - dale carnegie would be so proud

I told trim he should post the pm here so that we can all enjoy Hawkeye's persuasive and errudite style (tho Hawkeye probably thinks errudite is a type of glue :lol: )


----------



## PeterBassett (8 Jun 2010)

big soft moose":1sl2yspt said:


> (tho Hawkeye probably thinks errudite is a type of glue :lol: )



:lol: :lol:


----------



## Karl (8 Jun 2010)

big soft moose":1zro04zq said:


> according to what trim said on the haven, hawkeye dissected trims personallity at length then insulted his little girl



What a to$$er.


----------



## Dibs-h (8 Jun 2010)

Damn - missed all the fun!


----------



## Digit (8 Jun 2010)

We need a replay button!

Roy.


----------



## Gary (8 Jun 2010)

You could always give Hawkeye a call


----------



## Digit (8 Jun 2010)

I could!

Roy.


----------



## Gary (8 Jun 2010)

But, I bet you don't. :lol:


----------



## Digit (8 Jun 2010)

Damned right! I bleed bright yellow!

Roy.


----------



## Dibs-h (8 Jun 2010)

Digit":30be1obk said:


> We need a replay button!
> 
> Roy.



Yeah something like BBC iPlayer. :wink:


----------

