# Am I being unreasonable?



## Slim (14 Dec 2009)

Hi everyone,

I am having a bit of wrangle with Record customer services.

I bought a new CL3 lathe a couple of weeks ago. I made a 6 hour round trip to MacGreggors in Inverness to pick it up as it was quite urgent (for making Christmas presents) and they were the closest place with one in stock. After I set it up and ran it in, I noticed a large vibration. I spoke to MacGreggors, who put me onto Record. We decided that it needed a replacement spindle and bronze bearing and this would be sent out ASAP for me to fit (this was last Monday). Wednesday afternoon and nothing had arrived, so I queried if it had been sent. "It has been sent today" they said. By Friday it still hadn't arrived so I queried again this morning. Record rang me back to say that the spindle was out of stock until January. "No good" i said. "I need this lathe up and running to make Christmas presents. Can't you take one out of another lathe?". "No sir, that would spoil another lathe". After further arguing he said he would speak to his manager and ring me back. Which he hasn't, yet. Why could they not have told me it was out of stock when I spoke to them last Monday? Why did they say it had been sent when it hadn't?

Please tell me if I am being unreasonable. I don't think I am, but I may be blinded by the red mist.


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## BMac (14 Dec 2009)

Instead of them spoiling another lathe...why don't you suggest they just give you another lathe and take your useless one back.

That would seem reasonable to me.

Brendan


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## wizer (14 Dec 2009)

Yep, if they won't take the part off another lathe then they are obliged to replace it or refund you. In fact I strongly suggest you get back on the phone to the retailer and ask them to come and pick it up for a refund. If Record won't help you then all you can do it aim it back at them and get a proper lathe from a decent company. Or buy something known to be good second hand.


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## NikNak (14 Dec 2009)

BMac":23ptld2b said:


> Instead of them spoiling another lathe...why don't you suggest they just give you another lathe and take your useless one back.
> 
> That would seem reasonable to me.
> 
> Brendan






Absolutely ditto..... get a courier to collect defective goods and replace....



Nick


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## matt (14 Dec 2009)

You're not covered under distance selling protection so you may be on sticky ground with regard to getting it collected. 

Imagine if anyone who ever bought something in person had grounds to have it collected (or claim costs in time and petrol returning it) if it turned out to be faulty. 

The law tends to allow for the fact that products will be faulty on occasion and tends not to burden retailers with unreasonable expectaions borne out of a purist view of what's fair and principled. 

It tends to be rather practical so I suggest, given your position, you use a hearts and minds approach. Establish whether you can get what you NEED before Xmas (i.e. a working lathe) and, if not, put it down to experience and wait for the parts to turn up in January. Or, agree for how and when the faulty lathe will be returned and try to find an equivalent locally.


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## wizer (14 Dec 2009)

There he goes with that hearts and minds nonsense again :roll: :wink: 

Sorry, I missed that it was bought it in person. In that case, I'd be banging on their door at opening time tomorrow morning. It's completely unsatisfactory to be sold something that is faulty. If you bought a TV and the aerial didn't work, you'd take it back and get a new one. A customer can not be expected to change parts himself. Again, you would not be expected to swap out the internals of a TV. It's between record and the retailer to sort out faulty stock, it should not be passed on to the customer. The customer has every right to return a product that does not work as intended. By taking it back you are forcing the retailer to either replace or refund. You put the ball back in their court. They can not shirk the blame and pass the problem on to the manufacturer.


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## Slim (14 Dec 2009)

Cheers for the replies fellas.

I didn't want to take it back as I thought replacing the parts was the quickest solution. Plus, I didn't want to have to drive to Inverness again. I doubt whether they will agree to collect it.

No-one rang me back today (surprise surprise). I have tried calling them but they must have knocked off a 4.

I'll let you know what happens in the morning.


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## cornucopia (14 Dec 2009)

I would return the lathe and request a full refund
once again Record power seem to be giving poor service


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## wizer (14 Dec 2009)

Their service gets mixed reviews, but we are seeing more and more faulty machinery from new.

It might be a long way to go but it might be in your best interests to get it back to them ASAP. Read thispage to find out about your rights.


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## Bodrighy (14 Dec 2009)

How much of their stuff is now sourced in Chaiwanese factories?I know the Nova is and that seems to have problems but I thought the rest original Record stuff was British made?

Pete


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## greggy (14 Dec 2009)

wizer":1gh06096 said:


> There he goes with that hearts and minds nonsense again :roll: :wink:
> 
> Sorry, I missed that it was bought it in person. In that case, I'd be banging on their door at opening time tomorrow morning. It's completely unsatisfactory to be sold something that is faulty. If you bought a TV and the aerial didn't work, you'd take it back and get a new one. A customer can not be expected to change parts himself. Again, you would not be expected to swap out the internals of a TV. It's between record and the retailer to sort out faulty stock, it should not be passed on to the customer. The customer has every right to return a product that does not work as intended. By taking it back you are forcing the retailer to either replace or refund. You put the ball back in their court. They can not shirk the blame and pass the problem on to the manufacturer.




tom is spot on here, you paid cash to the dealer,,, so your contract is with a the dealer and NOT record power FULL STOP. that is law and in statute.
what you must do is,, take it back to the dealer and give it them back. and demand your full money back, by law they must give it you.
then you go away and buy another lathe fro elsewhere.
i know its a pain in the neck, but you tell the dealer 2 things.
one,, you know your rights,and wont be fobbed off.
two,, their customer service is laughable to say the least.


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## kasandrich (14 Dec 2009)

The law on faulty goods says they should repair or replace it......it does not say when, and 28 days is considered a normal and acceptable delay, where no other time constraint is defined.


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## Slim (14 Dec 2009)

I know it's the responsibility of the dealer. I was only in contact with Record because they rang me. 

I'll try again to get it sorted in the morning, otherwise is another long old drive up one of the most dangerous roads in the country... :x . It's not all bad. The winter scenery is stunning on the A9. Maybe that's why it's a dangerous road... :-k 

Cheers for the replies guys.


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## OldWood (14 Dec 2009)

The only counter to your comment about the A9, etc, Slim, is that Endsleigh Insurance have just put up statistics which indicate that Scotland is one of the safest parts of the UK for driving - or making the least claims, which I suppose is the same thing. It just makes one worry, if using the A9 as a yardstick, as to what some of the driving in England must be like - and I'm going down there in two days to collect a bandsaw.

Rob


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## paulm (14 Dec 2009)

Don't forget to tell the dealer, and Record, that you have shared your experience with all of your several hundred/thousand forum buddies........

Cheers, Paul


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## Russell (14 Dec 2009)

I may be able to sort this for you I have a CL3 spindle kit in stock new spindle and phosphor bronze bearing you could have it Wednesday you need to speak to Record to get authorization for me to send it to you and for me to get a credit from them. you can PM or call me at the office in the morning.


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## Slim (14 Dec 2009)

Russell,

You're a star mate. I'll try and get Record to agree in the morning. One of the things I miss from Yorkshire is your shop. I can't find a decent place for turning supplies up here.

I'll be in touch


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## Slim (14 Dec 2009)

OldWood":2mc7zlsm said:


> The only counter to your comment about the A9, etc, Slim, is that Endsleigh Insurance have just put up statistics which indicate that Scotland is one of the safest parts of the UK for driving - or making the least claims, which I suppose is the same thing. It just makes one worry, if using the A9 as a yardstick, as to what some of the driving in England must be like - and I'm going down there in two days to collect a bandsaw.
> 
> Rob



Well Rob, I have driven all over the country and the worst road I have come across is the A31 through the New Forrest. Quite similar to the A9. It's people turning right into the ouside lane of a 70mph road that scares me. I've nearly come a cropper a couple of times by suddenly finding a car doing 20mph in front of me. :shock:

Of course the A9 is so dangerous because it keeps switching between single and dual carriageway. Combine that with lots of tourists, some of whom forget it has changed back to single carriageway and you have a recipe for disaster.


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## OldWood (15 Dec 2009)

Hi Simon
Interesting your comment about lack of decent suppliers in Scotland. I'm pretty new to turning so haven't as yet run into a supply chain problem. I take it that Jean Burhouse in Dunkeld doesn't come up to scratch either then, and I think you are nearer them than I in Edinburgh.

Rob


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## Slim (15 Dec 2009)

Well I sent a rather scathing email to Record last night including a little point about letting my 3000 forum buddies know about how bad their customer service is. 

Interestingly, they rang me at 9 o'clock this morning very apologetic, and offering to send me a complete new lathe overnight.

So Record customer services aren't all that bad. They just need a little poke!

Russell, I obviously wont be needing your help now, but thanks once again for your very kind offer. If only all shops were as helpful as you. I owe you a beer mate.


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## Slim (15 Dec 2009)

OldWood":1ngg5rdh said:


> Hi Simon
> Interesting your comment about lack of decent suppliers in Scotland. I'm pretty new to turning so haven't as yet run into a supply chain problem. I take it that Jean Burhouse in Dunkeld doesn't come up to scratch either then, and I think you are nearer them than I in Edinburgh.
> 
> Rob



I haven't been there Rob. Thanks for the heads up. They are not that far from me, maybe an hour or so. I'll have to make a trip out.


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## wobblycogs (15 Dec 2009)

I used to live down Southampton way and I agree the A31 is dangerous. For the sheer number of accidents though I think the M27 round Southampton has got to be the most dangerous road in the country. I commuted along it for a couple of years and there was an accident on more than half the days probably. The problem is too many sharp bends (for a motorway) and junctions all on top of one another.

Anyway, good luck getting the parts you need. Hope the Christmas presents turn out well.


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## Russell (15 Dec 2009)

Slim

Thanks, just glad your sorted hopefully. I have to say though in general Record are very good with their after sales service.


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## Slim (15 Dec 2009)

Well I have to say that Alan from Record Power has been very good today. He has tested the new lathe to make sure it is working properly and I should be getting it tomorrow.

Hopefully this will be the end of the matter.

Thanks for all the input.


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## Jenx (16 Dec 2009)

And also worthy of mention ... another RECORD 'Rotating Piece of machinery' that can't turn a revolution without vibrating itself to bits !

Their lathes being made to match their grinders now, obviously ! 

8) 

I agree their service is good... but I also think they must get plenty of practice :wink: 

After grim experiences with record 8" pitiful grinders ( 3 of them ) .. which oddly enough are reviewed by none other than Mark Baker in the mag this month and given a thumbs up... I'll never buy anything "Record" that turns circles, ever again.
Once 'Faith's Lost', thats kind of 'it' for me...
Hopefully you get on much better with the replacement  8)


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## Slim (16 Dec 2009)

Cheers Jenx.

Yesterday afternoon I received an email from Andrew Greensted the MD of Record who has investigated my complaint personally. It's great that he took the time to personally apologise and identify the failures of his customer service team on this occasion. From what he said, I am sure that their after sales service is not usually this bad.

The lathe arrived today as promised. I haven't had chance to turn anything yet. I've only just got it set up and it is running in as I type.

Fingers crossed for a better result this time [-o<


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## wizer (16 Dec 2009)

*Well Done Record*. Now let's see quality control improved, significantly.


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## BMac (16 Dec 2009)

Yep, Well Done Record, indeed. They have certainly impressed me too which is very encouraging seeing as I'm about to buy one of their bandsaws.

Brendan


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## Blister (17 Dec 2009)

And how often do we get this with record lathes 

Wont be on my shopping list now they are cheap chiwaneese imports


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## wizer (17 Dec 2009)

I've had a good look at record machinery at the shows over the past couple of years and all of it 'feels' cheap and nasty. I'm happy with my RSDE2 but there's nothing in the Record range i'd ever buy. At least not til I've heard significant improvements to their quality control. Record used to be a name to be reckoned with, I don't think that is the case anymore. I sincerely hope the Startrite brand isn't going the same way.


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## scratchy (17 Dec 2009)

Blister":14xdoshj said:


> And how often do we get this with record lathes
> 
> Wont be on my shopping list now they are cheap chiwaneese imports



If you don't but "chaiwanese" products, what do you buy? I doubt if there is any machinery under a grand or two now that isn't made in China or Taiwan - virtually everything apart from high end stuff is made there - not just Record but Scheppach, Axminster, Jet, Metabo, Myford, Nova, Draper, Fox, Charnwood and the list goes on. I even hear that Hammer have machines or at least the parts made in China now. What is left?

Not only that but I have a Record BS350 bandsaw and a TSPP250. Both have given good service, the bandsaw in particular - I use it all the time. I can remember 10 years ago or so before all these "chaiwanese" machines were on the market - the only real choice for a hobby machine was the Elektra Beckum BAS315. My mate bought one back around 1998 and it was £450 then. The BS350 is bigger, more powerful, better built with better features and it cost me £399 a few years ago - it's still under £500 now. You can knock "chaiwanese" products if you want to but I think they have made reasonable machinery much more affordable. I could certainly never have bought a cast iron table saw 10 years ago for less than £2,000 or so - now there is loads of choice from £300 to under £1,000. OK you might have to do a bit of setting up and the odd fettle or shim - but unless you are rolling in dough that is a small price to pay for the range of affordable machinery we now have to choose from.

If we have to buy "chaiwanese" then at least I prefer where it makes sense to buy from a recognised brand (Record, Metabo or Scheppach) that have some history and knowledge of making machines and offer some back up than a nameless box shifter. At least Record offer a 5 year guarantee and my experience of their after sales has always been good. I can see from the forum they don't always get it right but then who does?

And it's not only machinery - cookers, fridges, washing machines, tellys, clothes, shoes etc etc. Virtually all affordable products (and probably some of the non-affordable ones) will be "chaiwanese". If you don't buy "chaiwanese" you must walk around naked and cook on an open fire 

Cheers

Scratchy :wink:


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## Blister (17 Dec 2009)

scratchy":2szqgshu said:


> Blister":2szqgshu said:
> 
> 
> > And how often do we get this with record lathes
> ...



I must be fortunate then , so far I have avoided chiwanese lathes , my list is as follows

Poolwood 28 40
Poolwood Euro 2000
Union graduate variable speed 
Woodfast 
Silverdrive Statesman 
and now a VB 36 

correct me if I am wrong but I don't think any of these and made in China ?

My comment was regarding the amount od Record products the are supplied faulty , we have had a few posts recently on this subject 

and If they arrive faulty and unusable I for one would not be happy , would rather get a second hand lathe ( as all of my lather are ) of a better quality 

After all a lathe should be all about 

1 Weight 
2 size 
3 Bearings and bearing life 
4 usability 
5 Hopefully ( Long life )
6 reliability 

for that reason I prefer to buy used better quality lathes 

You can pick them up for sensible money if you have a hunt around 

My comment still stands 

Wont be on my shopping list , but I hope you get a better lathe with the replacement

I wont comment on the TV fridge radio side of things as this is off topic 

Allen


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## big soft moose (17 Dec 2009)

the woodfast is now the record maxi - and i'd be suprised if it doesnt have some parts made in the east

it is also quite possible that the variable speed electrics and motorwinding on even uk made lathes come from abroad

But that said i take your point about record - i have one of their scrollsaws and it took 3 attempts for yandles to supply me one that worked propperly


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## Bodrighy (17 Dec 2009)

I must admit I am more likely to look for second hand. OK you don't get the guarantee but you can suss it out, see it working, get feedback about it and pay a lot less. Higher end lathes tend to hold their price but that is perhaps because they don't deteriorate. I'd be happy with the older lathes I see them as the tractors of the turning world. Solid, no frills, workhorses. At the end of the day you need something that will turn a piece of wood at different speeds and not break down. The rest is up to you and your skill level. I'd rather spend the money on decent tools and live with an older lathe

Pete


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## Blister (17 Dec 2009)

big soft moose":d8gjg1ob said:


> the woodfast is now the record maxi - and i'd be suprised if it doesnt have some parts made in the east
> 
> it is also quite possible that the variable speed electrics and motorwinding on even uk made lathes come from abroad
> 
> But that said i take your point about record - i have one of their scrollsaws and it took 3 attempts for yandles to supply me one that worked propperly



My 2 Woodfast's were the WHITE Australian ones , before Record got their hands on the brand 

I am waiting to see what cut backs happen on the Maxi 2


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## wizer (17 Dec 2009)

Indeed, my Woodfast (that was Blister's) had 'Made in Australia' stamped on the side. I've had a look at the new Maxi-2 and that stamp is no longer there. It also seemed to feel different when I looked over it. It was almost as if every part of it, legs, headstock, tailstock, bed, etc, was somehow lighter, or thinner. It appeared a little 'tinny'. However, I'm sure like all brands, their top end lathes will be just that, the best they can produce. It's the smaller, lower end products that seem to be coming up time and again as being faulty. Like Jenx grinder, the DVR that we had a long thread about recently, etc. I'm sure a high percentage of their products come of the production line fine and dandy. It seems the problem occurs in quality control.


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## scratchy (17 Dec 2009)

Blister wrote

"I must be fortunate then , so far I have avoided chiwanese lathes , my list is as follows

Poolwood 28 40
Poolwood Euro 2000
Union graduate variable speed
Woodfast
Silverdrive Statesman
and now a VB 36

correct me if I am wrong but I don't think any of these and made in China ?

My comment was regarding the amount od Record products the are supplied faulty , we have had a few posts recently on this subject

and If they arrive faulty and unusable I for one would not be happy , would rather get a second hand lathe ( as all of my lather are ) of a better quality"




Don't get me wrong - if I could buy a British made or European made product at the right price - I would prefer to do that. The main point I was trying to make is that the growth of "chaiwanese" imports has made a wider range of machinery much more affordable for the average hobby user like myself and that nowadays most of the machinery under a few grand is probably made in the Far East. 

All of the products you have listed are fine products I am sure - but they are all top end machines and I don't think many are still made any more. Silverdrive no longer advertise or go to shows, I don't think Poolewood still make in the UK if at all, Graduate is no longer made etc. I believe the VB is still made here but that is beyond the reach of most on both a money and space basis.

I take your point on Records faulty products. It may well be their quality control does need improving. I did have a problem with my TSPP250 when I bought it - but that was new then and they fixed it straight away. I think you have to be careful to compare apples with apples. Record seem to be everywhere so I guess they sell big volumes - this post was about a CL3 which I see currently sells for £399. I am sure alot more CL3's are sold than VB's so even if they both had the same percentage of problems you would expect to see many more CL3 problems reported from a given group of users than VB problems because there will be alot more of them. That is quite apart from the fact that most of the products you list here may cost nearly 5 to 10 times as much as a CL3 in the first place.

If you have the knowledge and confidence to buy second hand that is great and I am sure there are some bargains out there. For me, depending on how much I paid I would always worry about spares if they ever became needed. I am sure you can get them made up if you need to but that is then getting to be a pain and potentially expensive.

My final comments were tongue in cheek - did not mean to cause any offence. 

Good luck and have a good Christmas

Scratchy


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## big soft moose (17 Dec 2009)

those made in stamps dont meabn a lot anyway - all it means is that the lathe itself was assembled in australia - theres nothing in that that stops them "making it in australia" from parts that are made in china, india, the phillipines or wherever else.

Theres also no reason why made in china should automatically mean poor quality - so long as the importing company has decent quality control there no reeason why india, china or whwerever can't handle casting of iron or machining of parts just as well (or possibly considerably better) than a shop in sheffield or wherever

two examples that spring to mind are a) the toolpost versa chuck which peter helmnsley tells me he has made in india and are just tested on arrival, and b) the quasheng planes that mathewwh has started importing - they are from a chinese company but mathew is presumably inspecting them and thus workshop heavens reputation stands behind the brand.

So at the end of the day with the record situation the fault lies not in the chaiwanee manufacture but in the poor quality control exerted by record themselves.


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## wizer (17 Dec 2009)

agreed. The DEFT brand of Tablesaw which is thought of as the holy grail amongst some of us here, is a chaiwanese import. As is the SIP.


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## Benchwayze (20 Dec 2009)

It seems the lathe is not fit for purpose, under the Sale of Goods Act. If so, they MUST refund and take back the faulty lathe. No option.

HTH
John


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## DonStan (3 Jan 2010)

All of the products you have listed are fine products I am sure - but they are all top end machines and I don't think many are still made any more. Silverdrive no longer advertise or go to shows, I don't think Poolewood still make in the UK if at all, Graduate is no longer made etc. I believe the VB is still made here but that is beyond the reach of most on both a money and space basis.

Graduate is still in production !! - moulds were bought over by Multico, as we had to get a brand new one (not reconditioned !!) from they last year for a school, from what I gather, they are now made in India, but then imported into france by Multico, so as to pass all the CE approvals etc. I hate to tell you thou, they are damn expensive !! - expect to pay in the region of 5k to actually get one delivered - the most expensive part is the delivery from the south of France to home - cost me nearly 1k to get it to the North West of Ireland - great lathe, but with the modern ones - Nova DVR or MAXI 2, I think they are now well over priced. Central Technologies still can supply them in the UK, but producers now are Multico - the same as the mortice machines.

Many thanks

Stanley


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## paul-c (3 Jan 2010)

> Graduate is still in production !! - moulds were bought over by Multico, as we had to get a brand new one (not reconditioned !!) from they last year for a school, from what I gather, they are now made in India, but then imported into france by Multico, so as to pass all the CE approvals etc. I hate to tell you thou, they are damn expensive !! - expect to pay in the region of 5k



the union graduate lathe is actually being made in golborne , wigan by a company called LRE http://www.woodturninglathes.co.uk/
a one man company i think . i had to get a tailstock for my graduate and he sometimes has second hand spares ( new spare parts are pricey ) and is very helpful and will quite happily show you around where he makes the new lathes ,a very helpful pleasant man .
here is the price list ,a lot less than the 5k quoted.
http://www.woodturninglathes.co.uk/price_list.html


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