# What joint to use on my first cabinet?



## tibi (22 Dec 2021)

Hello,

I was given a second order for a woodworking project from my wife (the first one was a coat hanger for my sister). It will be a toy cabinet. A simple open shelf cabinet with one divider. 120 cm long, 40 cm deep, and 35 cm tall. Will be made of 25 mm oak boards.

I will use stopped dado for the divider. *What will be the best joint to use for the corner joints if I do not want to use dovetails?* I am not yet experienced enough to cut them by hand. I have cut one test dovetail joint, and I need to cut 784 more to get the skill points to make them look neat.

I was thinking about a double rabbet joint (maybe with dowels) for all 4 corners of the box. I have a rabbet plane (record 078). What is the correct ratio of the rabbet depth to the thickness of the board? is it 1/2 deep or any other ratio?

This will be a hand tool-only project as I have no table saw, miter saw, power routers, etc...

Here is the draft of the toy cabinet. There will be no back.







Thank you.


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## eribaMotters (22 Dec 2021)

Does your wife know how much the oak is going to cost. If not then I'd buy a biscuit jointer as the project is calling out for one.

Colin


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## TheTiddles (22 Dec 2021)

Lap joints could work, given that it looks like a seat, without a back it may rack and break under load, so maybe plugged screws would improve it and make assembly easier. The rebate doesn’t need to be a lot, maybe 1/3 of the board thickness at the most. But given the cost of materials you are going to put in, have a practice and dovetail it, it’s really not that hard


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## baldkev (22 Dec 2021)

Hi tibi, over here oak is fairly expensive, probably not so bad in slovakia?
Another option for the rebates is to dowel them. You could also add a section of oak at the back ( a rail ) under the top, maybe 100mm deep, which will increase strength ( resist racking )


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## thetyreman (22 Dec 2021)

honestly I would just do dovetails, it's really not that hard to do once you get into the swing of it, practise practise practise, there's no other way to get better at it, get all the scraps you have and spend a week practising, you will be amazed at how much better you will become through repetition.


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## Cabinetman (22 Dec 2021)

No guys, he said he’s not very experienced, he can come back to dovetails after a bit of practice later, I think lap joints and when I do them I go nearly all the way through leaving about 4 /5 mm, sometimes less depending on the thickness to start with you can also put a couple of pins through into the thicker bits, ie not through the 4/5mm bit, with the glue it will be very strong. And on a job like this if you think oak is going to be expensive you’re must be buying it at the wrong places. I would be surprised if it cost more than £30 for the oak. Ian


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## thetyreman (22 Dec 2021)

well what a about a rebated joint? like this: you could then put a lip over it with mitres in the corners to hide it.


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## Cabinetman (22 Dec 2021)

thetyreman said:


> well what a about a rebated joint? like this: you could then put a lip over it with mitres in the corners to hide it.


Well yes, though the short grain is very weak, it’s almost impossible to make without powered equipment, op is working by hand.


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## thetyreman (22 Dec 2021)

then why not do dovetails? even a bad dovetail is going to be better than that rebate, also you could make that joint with hand tools, use a no44 rebate plane then no78.


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## Cabinetman (23 Dec 2021)

thetyreman said:


> then why not do dovetails? even a bad dovetail is going to be better than that rebate, also you could make that joint with hand tools, use a no44 rebate plane then no78.


I bow to your superior Knowledge, but they look a lot like a machine made joint to me.
You would be surprised how strong a lap joint can be, my tool rack which has been bashed every day into the cupboard for 10 years hasn’t started to come adrift yet.


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## TRITON (23 Dec 2021)

TheTiddles said:


> Lap joints could work, given that it looks like a seat, without a back it may rack and break under load, so maybe plugged screws would improve it and make assembly easier. But given the cost of materials you are going to put in, have a practice and dovetail it, it’s really not that hard


I'd be for 1/2 laps as well, its a standard joint thats stood the test of time. Biscuits are really for board material jointing.
I'd also agree that dovetails would work extremely well and there are even certain jigs made by veritas that use angled guides and magnets to give all the correct angles, but that said try to forget the extreme precision that seems to be overly associated with dovetails and just use them. Only maybe in a case of fine furniture super accurate dovetails would be expected, but for a first timer the odd small gap is going to be overlooked and the overall effect will stand better.


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## tibi (23 Dec 2021)

Hello All, 

Thank you very much for your recommendations. 

I would like to answer a few questions. I already have oak, so I am not going to buy a new lumber. I have made an elevated garden bed from it a few years ago, so it was outside for a few winters before I disassembled it and now I am storing the boards in my workshop. 

It had a foil inside where the ground was and the foil was attached with small screws. Now I have a lot of black marks on the oak after those screws. You know oak + iron + water. 

I am going to plane first a few boards (there is some exterior paint on them) and see if the wood is usable to be placed in the living room. If not, I will use a spare MDF cabinet and call it a day. 

I would either put some reinforcement on the back or I will just nail a plywood on the back (no plough plane yet to make a groove for it)

I may test dovetails for a week, but my wife wants the cabinet relatively soon, so I will see how it goes. 

If I fail at dovetails I would try this double rabbet joint (image from Wood Whisperer)





for me it would be better looking in the living room than having dovetails like these, which will be probably my level of quality (i am not going to name the instagram woodworker where I took the picture from - If he identified his picture and wants credit for it, I will edit the post)





Thank you.


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## TRITON (23 Dec 2021)

If those were mine I really wouldn't be wanting credit for them  

But in all honesty the average punter viewer wouldnt see the gaps really as being any sort of a problem or them being wrong or anything like that, and would just be impressed that they are there in the first place. It's a mythical joint everyday folk see as the epitome of cabinetry.

I've some old drawers from an early 18th century shop cabinet and the dovetails are of pretty much equal quality with some gaping gaps, and the central nail that was a common addition.
Yes on fine furniture of that era they would be nearly perfect, but every day carpenter made stuff its not usually the case and the mechanical strength of the joint is more important than how they look.

Use a couple of bits of pine and practice a single dovetail on that, maybe ever trying a 1/2 dozen times. I can pretty much guarantee by the 3rd or 4th you'll have cracked it and know exactly what you need to do, and how to go about getting it.


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## Adam W. (23 Dec 2021)

I'm sure it's strong enough for a joint. 

It's just that we now see dovetails as something special, whereas it was just a quick and strong workman joint for keeping boxes together before.


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## tibi (23 Dec 2021)

TRITON said:


> If those were mine I really wouldn't be wanting credit for them
> 
> But in all honesty the average punter viewer wouldnt see the gaps really as being any sort of a problem or them being wrong or anything like that, and would just be impressed that they are there in the first place. It's a mythical joint everyday folk see as the epitome of cabinetry.
> 
> ...



This woodworker has a lot of stuff of similar quality, but he definitely enjoys what he is doing, and if only does work for himself and not paid commissions, it should be fine for him, as long as he is happy. 

My strategy is to plane two pieces of wood and make first dovetail joint. Then cut it off just below the baseline, square the ends and start again. This way I can make even 10 dovetails from two boards only. This is like browsing internet in privacy mode. There will be no dovetail history. Just some small pins and tails laying on the floor.


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## Jameshow (23 Dec 2021)

As a newbie doing dovetails even blind dovetails isn't that hard. 

What I find harder is maintaining concentration so as to not make a mistake. My mind drifts to something I'm worrying about or has annoyed me and that's when I make mistakes. 

I tend to do just one or two per session otherwise the fun stops!


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## recipio (23 Dec 2021)

If the oak is finished to 25 mm you have enough depth to use dowels. The great James Krenov used dowels for his display cabinets. A simple dowel jig or even dowel pops will help. The only downside is that the endgrain of the top and bottom will be on show. I wouldn't practice dovetails on what is to be a finished piece - you are guaranteed heartache.  As with all cabinet pieces a set of sash clamps is obligatory.


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## TheTiddles (23 Dec 2021)

If your starting material has been used for gardening, I’d just screw it together and not bother with any additional process


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## Jacob (23 Dec 2021)

I'd consider making the top into a top i.e. projecting over the box - wider and longer. Then house the verticals in a stopped dado.
Then take the vertical panels to the floor instead of having an unnecessary plinth.
It'd be a toy table as much as a toy box.
It'd still need a bit of bracing - simplest would be a stretcher from end to end under the middle of the bottom shelf, or the top.


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## baldkev (23 Dec 2021)

tibi said:


> This is like browsing internet in privacy mode. There will be no dovetail history. Just some small pins and tails laying on the floor.



Unless you get it right first time, in which case you can skip to the next stage..... cider


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## tibi (23 Dec 2021)

recipio said:


> If the oak is finished to 25 mm you have enough depth to use dowels. The great James Krenov used dowels for his display cabinets. A simple dowel jig or even dowel pops will help. The only downside is that the endgrain of the top and bottom will be on show. I wouldn't practice dovetails on what is to be a finished piece - you are guaranteed heartache.  As with all cabinet pieces a set of sash clamps is obligatory.



Dowels were my original solution, I have a dowel jig as well. I will practice dovetails on test pieces and If I will not get it right in few times, I will use double rabbet with dowels. 

Sash clamps are a bit of issue for me right now. I have those quick grip clamps up to 750 mm, but I will not be able to clamp the length of the cabinet that is 1200 mm wide. As one good sash clamp is 50+€, and now I am not able to give another 200-300 € for clamps, so I need to look for some dyi clamp solution online.


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## tibi (23 Dec 2021)

Jacob said:


> I'd consider making the top into a top i.e. projecting over the box - wider and longer. Then house the verticals in a stopped dado.
> Then take the vertical panels to the floor instead of having an unnecessary plinth.
> It'd be a toy table as much as a toy box.
> It'd still need a bit of bracing - simplest would be a stretcher from end to end under the middle of the bottom shelf, or the top.



Hello Jacob, 

I got an additional requirement to match the height of an existing cabinet that is next to it, so I need to remove the plinth anyway. I will probably screw only 4 little square boards to the bottom, as I only have 2 cm height for the legs. WIth bracing you are right, I will put a stretcher to the back, but did not draw it to the model.


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## thetyreman (23 Dec 2021)

dowels in 40cm wide solid oak, do you not think there will be movement issues? I would go with dowels if it was oak veneered MDF but not sure about solid oak.


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## tibi (23 Dec 2021)

thetyreman said:


> dowels in 40cm wide solid oak, do you not think there will be movement issues? I would go with dowels if it was oak veneered MDF but not sure about solid oak.



I will actually glue two 20 cm boards to make the top and bottom, but there will be some cupping for sure. Maybe the dowels will break. I have around 70 - 80 percent humidity in my workshop and 35 percent in the house when using the fireplace in winter, so there definitely will be wood movement.


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## recipio (24 Dec 2021)

tibi said:


> I will actually glue two 20 cm boards to make the top and bottom, but there will be some cupping for sure. Maybe the dowels will break. I have around 70 - 80 percent humidity in my workshop and 35 percent in the house when using the fireplace in winter, so there definitely will be wood movement.



It would be prudent to bring the wood into the house for about a month to bring down the moisture levels. No need to over complicate the joint - simple dowels will be more that strong enough ( adding a back would also help ) As for wood movement its crucial that the grain of the side pieces is vertical to allow movement with the top/ bottom. Krenov used to put a chamfer on the dowel holes - he claimed it helped to relieve stress. Dowels need a good bit of force to get them together so some kind of sash clamp is essential. Have a look at _hatagane _clamps available form www.fine-tools.com. A bit pricey but they are the best kept secret in woodworking. As you are clamping top to bottom you only need a span of 35 cm. ?


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## Cabinetman (24 Dec 2021)

The only part of that design that will be affected by the movement is the front to back part of the plinth, all the rest will move as one so don’t worry about that. Re-cramps you could use a ratchet strap or two, it’s surprising how much force you can exert using them. Ian


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## tibi (25 Dec 2021)

Cabinetman said:


> The only part of that design that will be affected by the movement is the front to back part of the plinth, all the rest will move as one so don’t worry about that. Re-cramps you could use a ratchet strap or two, it’s surprising how much force you can exert using them. Ian
> View attachment 124965


That is a very good idea. I have two of them, so I can use them. but I should probably put some paper around the corners so that the strap will not damage the corners.


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## Ttrees (25 Dec 2021)

If you really wanted dovetails, Barron/Moses/Veritas? and maybe others make a dovetail
angle block, which looks easy enough to make.
Combined with Cosman's offset trick, (or whoever came up with that)
seems pretty foolproof to me.
No need for a skew rebate, if you've got a ruler.

Have you got a rip tooth backsaw for dovetails?


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## Jameshow (25 Dec 2021)

Veritas gauges are great. 

Makes dovetails a doddle!


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## Ttrees (25 Dec 2021)

I love my wheel marking gauge too, might try making an offset titemark one sometime,
with a solid stem, and not a pen like structure, no fine adjust, just tight fitting like the Veritas ones are already, makes fine adjust a breeze, double locking screws for when you want to make a deeper cut.
Veritas's cheaper one appears to be a pretty well made tool, compared to the fancy one which is a bit delicate.

The offset trick is why I actually bought one, but there's ways around that, should one want, here's one of the newest gizmos for that, which I believe started off from a block of wood.


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## jcassidy (25 Dec 2021)

tibi said:


> That is a very good idea. I have two of them, so I can use them. but I should probably put some paper around the corners so that the strap will not damage the corners.



I use ratchet straps, if there is an edge, I'll make a matching angle from offcuts to protect the edge from the straps.


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## Cabinetman (25 Dec 2021)

tibi said:


> That is a very good idea. I have two of them, so I can use them. but I should probably put some paper around the corners so that the strap will not damage the corners.


On Oak you will be ok, but some ratchet mechanisms need a pad under them, as I found out. Ian


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## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (26 Dec 2021)

A simple rebate will hold the sides. Glue and insert wooden pegs or screw and cover the heads with dowels. The visible dowels can make a nice feature.






About glueing up: the end grain needs to be "sized". That is, rub a layer of glue into the end grain and let it almost dry. Then glue again for glueing up. The sizing will seal the end grain and allow for decent glue strength,

Regards from Perth

Derek


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## Farm Labourer (26 Dec 2021)

If you need more than 2 ratchet straps, I would recommend a "Spanish windlass" - ie, a length of (in my case, baler-twine) tied loosely around the objects requiring the pressure and using a length of offcut, wind the twine tight. When at the desired pressure - secure the end of the winding stick! Twine will need the oak edges protecting though!


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## Jameshow (26 Dec 2021)

Farm Labourer said:


> If you need more than 2 ratchet straps, I would recommend a "Spanish windlass" - ie, a length of (in my case, baler-twine) tied loosely around the objects requiring the pressure and using a length of offcut, wind the twine tight. When at the desired pressure - secure the end of the winding stick! Twine will need the oak edges protecting though!


I use those hard cardboard corner packaging pieces with a layer of tape to stop glue sticking to protect corners whilst gluing.


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## tibi (26 Dec 2021)

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) said:


> A simple rebate will hold the sides. Glue and insert wooden pegs or screw and cover the heads with dowels. The visible dowels can make a nice feature.
> 
> View attachment 125100
> 
> ...


Thank you Derek,

I have never heard about pre-gluing the end grain. Thank you for the trick. I will try to cut a few test dovetails, but I am more than sure that they will not be good enough to be showcased, so I will eventually end up with the rebate + dowels. Here in Slovakia, I cannot buy any other dowel rods, just beech. I have a small amount of walnut that I was given from kitchen offcuts, so I will probably make dowels myself to give more contrast to oak.


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