# Sharpening a Japanese Chisel



## brianhabby (9 Jul 2011)

Hi there,

I've just bought my first Japanese chisel and when checking the bevel it seems to be at about 33 degrees. I thought the angles should be about 25 degrees for the first bevel and about 30 degrees for the micro bevel.

So my question(s) is/are:

Am I right in what I thought?

If I am right, what am I to do with this new chisel that is bevelled at 33 degrees? Do I re-hone it to 25 degrees (a lot of work) or sharpen it to a different angle?

Any comments

regards

Brian


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## tim burr (9 Jul 2011)

No, Japanese chisels only have the one bevel, normally about 30ish degrees, so don't go regrinding it or putting any micro bevels on it


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## woodbloke (11 Jul 2011)

tim burr":36b6gfn1 said:


> No, Japanese chisels only have the one bevel, normally about 30ish degrees, so don't go regrinding it or putting any micro bevels on it


Correct. Perceived wisdom, according to Toshio Odate is that Japanese planes and chisels should only have one bevel, the reason being to reinforce the hard cutting layer. Grinding a primary at around 25deg, as is normal on Western chisel means that a lot of the supporting mass of chisel's bulk is removed, meaning that the edge may not be quite as robust as it would normally be. Hooped chisels, for tapping with a geno should be honed at 30deg, long handles parers at 25deg...single bevels both.
So, if you're looking at maintaining an *accurate* single bevel, a honing jig is the only really effective way to do it. If it's of any help, some bloke :-" in the latest edition of F&C has written quite a reasonable article where the problems of maintaining a single bevel on Japanese chisels are mentioned - Rob


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2011)

woodbloke":1c54mlla said:


> ....
> So, if you're looking at maintaining an *accurate* single bevel, a honing jig is the only really effective way ....


Or freehand, as the Japanese do it.


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## woodbloke (11 Jul 2011)

Jacob, it seems your outing to Pete Sefton's gaff on Saturday has severely limited your ability to read basic English, even when highlighted in *bold*...if it ever existed at all. Please read again and not that I said _'accurate'_ and for what it's worth, if you'd care to open the following linkie you'll see that the Japanese also use honing guides. Time and again, I've seen on fleabay examples of old free-hand honed Japanese chisels that were fit for no more than prising the lid off a paint can.
I won't bother to respond to any more of your pointless jibes, as past experience has shown it's a complete and utter waste of my time - Rob


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2011)

woodbloke":2stm4iks said:


> Jacob, it seems your outing to Pete Sefton's gaff on Saturday has severely limited your ability to read basic English, even when highlighted in *bold*...if it ever existed at all. Please read again and not that I said _'accurate'_ and for what it's worth, if you'd care to open the following linkie you'll see that the Japanese also use honing guides. Time and again, I've seen on fleabay examples of old free-hand honed Japanese chisels that were fit for no more than prising the lid off a paint can.
> I won't bother to respond to any more of your pointless jibes, as past experience has shown it's a complete and utter waste of my time - Rob


Was not a pointless jibe - no need to be rude.
Nearly everybody in the universe of woodworking, past and present, especially the Japanese, do a good deal of honing (sometimes 100%) freehand . All these gadgets are relatively recent. The ones you "linkie" :roll: to are recent innovations, I guess intended for the new wave of western Japanese tool fans who can't cope with honing but enjoy shopping (naming no names :lol: ) 

Were you the geezer in the pink shirt? You should have said hello!
PITA that Kell jig - sooo slooow!!!

PS can't help noticing how many Japanese chisels are on sale second hand and unused. Has the fashion bubble burst?


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## brianhabby (11 Jul 2011)

Thanks for the replies and explanation, I'll leave the single bevel as it is.

As for using a honing guide, I'm all for doing the job by hand if you have that kind of skill because it would be quicker and easier to give the tool a quick once over as needed while working. However, I don't have that skill so will use a honing guide.

When I've tried in the past I just can't seem to hold the chisel at the same angle throughout so honing guide it is. Does anyone have any recommendations? I'm currently using a Stanley one but it may not be the best one for the job.

regards

Brian


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2011)

brianhabby":26my05by said:


> ...
> When I've tried in the past I just can't seem to hold the chisel at the same angle throughout so honing guide it is. ....


The secret is that you don't have to hold the chisel at the same angle throughout.
Old Japanese chisels from Japan tend to have rounded bevels as has been commented on often, including by woodbloke (see above) who hasn't quite grasped the idea. He will eventually I'm sure! 
This because they use the freehand "rounding under" technique - where you start your stroke at 30º (or as near as you can guess) then dip the handle as you go forwards, to avoid rounding over.
It's quite easy and very quick. It's good for laminated blades as it leaves plenty of metal behind the edge, quite the opposite of hollow ground.
Don't be shouted out of it by the very vocal honing-jig lobby!


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## Harbo (11 Jul 2011)

Amazing - Mr Grim has now declared himself an expert on Japanese tools now??

Kell guides II & III work well with Japanese chisels.

Rod


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## Jacob (11 Jul 2011)

Harbo":np2jxlkl said:


> Amazing - Mr Grim has now declared himself an expert on Japanese tools now??.....


Nothing of the sort. I'm just stating the b****in obvious. How else do you account for the rounded bevels often seen on Jap chisels (ditto old western ones)? It seems unlikely that they were all ham-fisted incompetents desperately awaiting the next import of western honing jigs!


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## barkwindjammer (11 Jul 2011)

As a noob I started by hand honing while saving up for a cheap jig, I ended up spending the saved up money on something else, its very quick to learn, its intuitive and its simple and cheap (like me), a simple observation I made early on was the village butcher, a couple or three quick swipes over his 'steel' -back to work, same with the town barber (now Turkish) strop strop - back to work , some like the 'scientific approach' ,,,,each to their own :!:


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## woodbloke (11 Jul 2011)

Harbo":hkxxl99g said:


> Kell guides II & III work well with Japanese chisels.
> 
> Rod



Agreed Rod, but the KIII isn't intuitive to use and may not be the best if the user isn't prepared to think about how to get the best out of it. Ideally, Brian need's to see how to use it before deciding if it's the right guide for him - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (11 Jul 2011)

Jacob":1d5zrcuh said:


> It seems unlikely that they were all ham-fisted incompetents



From my observations of many second-hand chisels, I've concluded that they probably were.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## andy king (12 Jul 2011)

Paul Chapman":3a4zyqwe said:


> Jacob":3a4zyqwe said:
> 
> 
> > It seems unlikely that they were all ham-fisted incompetents
> ...


Without wanting to open the usual can of worms when the honing guide Versus freehand lobby kicks off, closer to the truth is the practice I've seen for many years where rounded bevels are concerned.
Back in the 70's when I was an apprentice, there was little access for any woodworker outside of a joinery shop to have easy access to a grinder so after a while the increased surface area of metal on stone as the secondary bevel was worked became increasingly time consuming as it widened.
With no grinding facility, and even a coarse India stone taking forever to reconstitute a primary bevel, lifting the chisel/plane iron slightly gave it less surface area, quicker burr raising, but at the cost of a rounded bevel as it then eventually got lifted a fraction more and more to achieve it.
It put off the need for grinding a little longer, but looking at the rounded chisels and planes I have seen over the years from an era where grinders were not so easily accessed, the picture tells its own story, especially as these have quite a steep round to them, not a 'rounding under' to maintain 30 degrees.
I've seen this countless times, both in the tools themselves, and practiced by the tradesmen I used to work with. Certainly seen it plenty of times on plane irons where the round is so steep and prominent that the 'bevel' bottoms out before the edge can make contact.

Just my 2p, and not trying to cause/start any arguments! 
As for honing guides? If they work for you and gain the results you need, what's the problem? Some people drive automatic cars rather than manual ones. Does that make them inferior to other drivers? :lol: 

cheers,
Andy


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## Jacob (12 Jul 2011)

Andy is of course quite right about the bad practice of rounding over chisels and plane blades. You can get away with it, but only so far.
And I agree - nothing inferior/superior about _the people_ who use particular sharpening methods. 
But some _methods_ are better than others.

Obvious place to start looking at Jap chisel sharpening is Odate. Page 146
No jigs! 
Traditionally the Japanese (and everybody else for that matter) did not use jigs. Some blade holders for small blades but still for freehand honing i.e. they don't set the angle.
He does single flat bevels freehand, the blade/chisel to be pushed away from you straight, not skewed, as this produces a stronger edge. He has a drawing to explain this and yes it makes sense. And he adds camber.
He particularly deprecates hollow ground as this removes the soft back from laminated chisels and weakens them. 
And he disapproves of rounding over - except the odd "feathering over" of new tools he describes on page 156. Must have a closer look!
He does back-bevels if needed. He starts discussing secondary bevels but doesn't entirely approve although he recognises that others argue for it.

So where does this put rounding-_under_ bevels? 
My answer would be; if you find a single flat freehand bevel difficult, then rounding _under_ by dipping the handle, is an easier way to get started. As your technique improves the rounding will diminish and you can aim at a flat bevel if that is what you want.
But many sharpeners find the rounded under bevel perfectly OK - which accounts for the number of old tools found with this feature. They weren't all wrecked by apprentices!

One thing is certain and I think everybody agrees on this - concave hollow grinding is not good for laminated blades. Gotta be flat, or I would argue, a bit convex within reason.

Not forgetting our OP:


brianhabby":2qduawlp said:


> ... the bevel it seems to be at about 33 degrees.....??


33º OK but 30º seems to be everybody's average favourite. So perhaps aim to reduce it slightly each time you hone, but not necessary to do more. Time and use will tell you.

PS and if it works for Jap tools it'll work for western tools too. They aren't that different (except for those backwards saws :roll: ).


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## SteveB43 (14 Jul 2011)

Sorry, for the newbie perspective, and still getting to grips with the whole sharpening thing..
Rounded bevel?, is that where a blade has so many bevels added to it, (primary, secondary, tertiary..) it's effectively blunt and would require a complete regrind if there was any edge left...??

My sense is using a honing guide is helpful when you're starting, to get the almost dead certainty of a result (as long as it's set up properly..) , once you then know what to look for and achieve, you can continue to practice freehand until you get the same (or as close to) result.
The danger I've found of freehand honing is almost an impulsive desire to pick an edge tool up, grab the nearest piece of sand, wet n dry, etc paper and "just do a bit more to flatten that back or hone that edge" ..., point being a guide at least requires you to follow a process, with some set up and thought....
Just bought a Veritas 2 so looking fwd to giving that a go..., but still practicing the freehand on those bootfair finds...
Cheers All...


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## SteveB43 (14 Jul 2011)

..or could just read through that Rounded bevels thread.....


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## Jacob (14 Jul 2011)

SteveB43":1kqepbr5 said:


> ..or could just read through that Rounded bevels thread.....


Yes do but don't ask any more questions fer crissake as I keep having to bore people to death!


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## Doug B (14 Jul 2011)

More out of interest than the need to own more chisels i bought the 3 Japanese chisels Rog was selling.

I thought they would be difficult to sharpen so this evening i had a play, i was surprised how quickly i managed to get a mirror finish compared to the AI butt chisel i used as a comparison, i was expecting it to take much longer, but the hollow back is a real time saver.
















You can certainly get a super sharp edge on the Japanese chisel, it will be interesting to see how much longer it holds its edge compared to the AI, more play time me thinks


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## studders (14 Jul 2011)

Doug B":q1tyjbt9 said:


> more play time me thinks



Surely you meant 'More In depth research imminent' ?


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## Dodge (14 Jul 2011)

When I had them I found that they would take a super razor sharp edge but it didnt last as long as a good quality European Chisel.

I am a fan of Kirschen chisels and have been using them for years but have just invested in a couple of sets of Narex chisels from Workshop Heaven having heard extremely good things about them. They arrived yesterday and whilst they need a "proper" sharpen first impressions are very good :wink: :wink:


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## Modernist (15 Jul 2011)

Doug B":3v040cqg said:


> More out of interest than the need to own more chisels i bought the 3 Japanese chisels Rog was selling...
> You can certainly get a super sharp edge on the Japanese chisel, it will be interesting to see how much longer it holds its edge compared to the AI, more play time me thinks



Nice one Doug, I admit to being tempted myself despite my previous experience. They certainly look very nicely prepared so let's see how they perform. IIRC they were a top end make like Fujikawa or similar in which case they should be excellent.


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## woodbloke (15 Jul 2011)

Doug B":1fuol4g3 said:


> More out of interest than the need to own more chisels i bought the 3 Japanese chisels Rog was selling.
> 
> I thought they would be difficult to sharpen so this evening i had a play, i was surprised how quickly i managed to get a mirror finish compared to the AI butt chisel i used as a comparison, i was expecting it to take much longer, but the hollow back is a real time saver.
> 
> ...


Doug, I had some WH jap chisels and AI dovetail chisels side by side at the same time, and there's no question in my mind that the Jap chisels held a better edge for a longer period of time, but as with all these sorts of things, it's very difficult to quantify - Rob


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