# Lie Nielsen A2 Steel.



## mtr1 (24 Feb 2012)

OK I've had this LN no4 for a while now, the blade has been re-ground out of necessity a few times. This has been mainly due to little nicks in the blade forming when the edge crumbles, I usually only use native/euro timbers like oak, ash, sycamore, hardly demanding timbers.I thought I would give it one more grind at the factory settings, just to see if it would be okay, no.
So I have tried regrinding the primary bevel to 30°, though I'm not convinced this makes any difference, I have made the secondary bevel about 34/35°, its still crumbling....have I got a duff blade?


----------



## Midnight (24 Feb 2012)

sounds like there's something way wrong there... are you keeping the blade cool while grinding? Contact L-N and advise of the issue, they should make arrangements for an exchange through your supplier


----------



## Modernist (24 Feb 2012)

mtr1":27qd02qi said:


> OK I've had this LN no4 for a while now, the blade has been re-ground out of necessity a few times. This has been mainly due to little nicks in the blade forming when the edge crumbles, I usually only use native/euro timbers like oak, ash, sycamore, hardly demanding timbers.I thought I would give it one more grind at the factory settings, just to see if it would be okay, no.
> So I have tried regrinding the primary bevel to 30°, though I'm not convinced this makes any difference, I have made the secondary bevel about 34/35°, its still crumbling....have I got a duff blade?



As you know this is not a unique problem but it shouldn't be as bad as that and it should certainly be cured by honing at >=33 deg which you are. Send it back.


----------



## Paul Chapman (24 Feb 2012)

I'd also suggest sending it back, Mark. I have an A2 blade in my LN #9 which is used mainly for shooting end grain and I've not had the sort of trouble you are having. Might be better off going for one of their 01 steel blades :-k 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## mtr1 (24 Feb 2012)

I don't think I'm grinding it wrong, I 'm using a creusen slow speed grinder with the wide (40mm) white stone, with frequent breaks, and haven't had any issues with other stuff I've re-ground. I've contacted Aximister, and its going to their sharpening experts for testing, so we shall see what happens. I did ask for a straight swap to an O1 iron, but they have to test it first. Though I'm not convinced the problem lies in the A2 just my one, as my 60 1/2 iron is superb.


----------



## Paul Chapman (24 Feb 2012)

mtr1":2750m79l said:


> I'm not convinced the problem lies in the A2 just my one, as my 60 1/2 iron is superb.



From previous posts about LN tools and crumbly edges, I think there is some variability in their A2 blades. 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## mtr1 (24 Feb 2012)

Well if that is the case I don't want another A2 iron, do you think they might swap it? once its passed the expert sharpener!! I can see problems convincing the sharpening expert that the iron is duff, because its OK for a bit then the dreaded lines appear. what if he/she just gives it a few strokes, the problem won't surface. I can feel a conversation like some of the sharpening threads on here soon, give me strength!!!


----------



## Paul Chapman (24 Feb 2012)

If you have any problems, contact LN direct - either Tom Lie Nielsen or Deneb Puchalski. They have a good track record of keeping their customers happy.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## MickCheese (24 Feb 2012)

mtr1":10pbpc8u said:


> Well if that is the case I don't want another A2 iron, do you think they might swap it? once its passed the expert sharpener!! I can see problems convincing the sharpening expert that the iron is duff, because its OK for a bit then the dreaded lines appear. what if he/she just gives it a few strokes, the problem won't surface. I can feel a conversation like some of the sharpening threads on here soon, give me strength!!!



I would wait to see what conclusion Axminster come to first, they are normally quite reasonable when it comes to customer care.

Mick


----------



## Modernist (24 Feb 2012)

Paul Chapman":20vnph0j said:


> mtr1":20vnph0j said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not convinced the problem lies in the A2 just my one, as my 60 1/2 iron is superb.
> ...



I agree. My LN 4 1/2 has never missed a beat honed to 30 deg and yet I had a skew rebate that crumbled like crunchie bar.


----------



## yetloh (25 Feb 2012)

Sounds like it has been over-hardened to me which has made it brittle.

Jim


----------



## mtr1 (28 Feb 2012)

It seems Lie Nielsen have seen this, and are shipping me a new iron regardless of what conclusions Axminster comes to. Very good service I think.


----------



## Aled Dafis (28 Feb 2012)

That's great service! Well done LN!

It's at times like this that I kick myself for not buying the limited edition bronze 4 1/2 years ago. I had it in my basket but the voice of reason told me that I didn't "need" another plane. I'll never listen to the voice of reason again!


----------



## Richard T (29 Feb 2012)

Another reminder that we are being observed from Mt. Olympus 8-[ 

Excellent service from LN. =D> 

Mark, are they sending you a replacement A2 or an O1?


----------



## mtr1 (29 Feb 2012)

They gave me the option for either, but in the end I went with the A2 again, with the option that if I don't get on with it they would swap it for O1.

As a side note, I'm still waiting for Axminster to send me a packing label to send the old iron for testing.


----------



## Vann (29 Feb 2012)

I'm impressed :!: :!: Especially if they approached you 'cold' as a result of hearing about your problem iron. 

And they gave you the choice of replacement steels.

Well done Lie-Nielsen (and I thought only Lee Valley were that good (hammer) )

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## TheTiddles (29 Feb 2012)

That's pretty impressive from LN, they've clearly got their business heads on.

My LN jack plane is sometimes slightly large for smaller smoothing jobs, if only I had a smaller version... (sitting back and waiting expectantly now)  

Aidan


----------



## Kalimna (29 Feb 2012)

Wow, that is excellent service indeed. It is certainly the sort of thing that would sway heavily future purchase decisions.... And whether it is a PR thing or not is utterly immaterial, it shows they care for their customers.

Adam S


----------



## Aled Dafis (29 Feb 2012)

TheTiddles":co0zgs48 said:


> That's pretty impressive from LN, they've clearly got their business heads on.
> 
> My LN jack plane is sometimes slightly large for smaller smoothing jobs, if only I had a smaller version... (sitting back and waiting expectantly now)
> 
> Aidan



Get in the queue, I've already put my hat in the ring with the 4 1/2 :wink:


----------



## Alf (29 Feb 2012)

Richard T":366nve25 said:



> Another reminder that we are being observed from Mt. Olympus 8-[


Mt Olympus is in Maine now? Are the Greeks selling _everything_?

*waves howdy to Big Brother*


----------



## Richard T (29 Feb 2012)

Alf":70970jem said:


> Richard T":70970jem said:
> 
> 
> > Another reminder that we are being observed from Mt. Olympus 8-[
> ...




:lol: Seems to be variously Maine, Canada and Scotland. 8-[


----------



## Benchwayze (1 Mar 2012)

I just ordered a low angle smoother from Axy. 
I'll keep posted! 8)


----------



## mtr1 (1 Mar 2012)

Jammy f##@++........


----------



## Benchwayze (1 Mar 2012)

mtr1":1bg2qkue said:


> Jammy f##@++........



I gave up the beer for a few months! :wink:


----------



## GazPal (2 Mar 2012)

It's always possible someone from Axminster (Who posts on here) contacted LN and referred them to this thread, but - regardless - kudos to LN for sorting the situation out so smoothly.


----------



## mtr1 (9 Mar 2012)

Well predictively enough according to Axminster I have damaged the iron by using a bench grinder to re-grind the bevel. I did point out that all my other irons over the last 20yrs have been fine :roll: I was a bit peeved to be honest and was probably a bit short with the guy.


----------



## No skills (9 Mar 2012)

Take heart, it must of cost them a fortune to send it to ******* NASA to find that out and be 100% sure of it. Are LN still getting you a new iron?


----------



## CHJ (9 Mar 2012)

If we are talking the same standard for the A2 I think you would have to be pretty brutal with any grinding to wreck the temper:,

A2 Tool Steel


----------



## Jake (9 Mar 2012)

Well thankfully at least the manufacturer stands up to its reputation for good service.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (9 Mar 2012)

mtr1":26jg3xoa said:


> Well predictively enough according to Axminster I have damaged the iron by using a bench grinder to re-grind the bevel. I did point out that all my other irons over the last 20yrs have been fine :roll: I was a bit peeved to be honest and was probably a bit short with the guy.



Have Axminster offered any evidence to support their assertion? Have they, for example, carried out hardness tests on the affected area of the iron?

Or are they just making a blind guess?


----------



## mtr1 (10 Mar 2012)

No evidence, the guy asked what I had used to re-grind the bevel, and I told him a bench grinder. He then told me that was the problem then, I must of heated the iron and ruined the hardness. I told him that the stone I used was a soft white, on a slow bench grinder, he told me that makes no difference. I then felt the need to tell him my occuption and how long I had been doing it, and that I hadn't had a problem with my other A2 irons/chisels or for that matter any of my other edge tools. 
He then went on to say that the primery bevel was a bit strange at 25 degrees, I didn't bother to tell him that it was in fact about 34 degrees, as I was starting to feel a little bit cheesed off. I think I might of said it wasnt anything I had done, and have had the iron for a while and have tried to make it work, I thought it was a tempering fault at source as I had never been able to get a lasting edge on it. Do others not re-grind bevels on a bench grinder? I would compare this irons edge to a broken digestive biscut after planing oak for 5 mins. As jake has stated, thankfully the maufacturer doesn't think along the same lines.


----------



## GazPal (10 Mar 2012)

25 deg is a bog standard standard primary bevel for irons anyway and even if slightly low for A2's edge retention the angle's normally increased via the secondary bevel if heading the two bevel route. In terms of grinding, does this "expert" chappy expect folk to grind primaries using stones and not grinding equipment?

A hardness test should be carried out on the problem blade regardless and to adequately identify whether softening was caused via production (Heat treatment/steel batch) flaws or re-grinding.


----------



## Modernist (10 Mar 2012)

All of the above just goes to illustrate, if it were needed, that these people are retailers first, second and last and it is wrong to accord them any status other than good or bad and place your orders accordingly.


----------



## CHJ (10 Mar 2012)

As a matter of interest, any members got access to Brinell or Rockwell testing facilities ? 

Having extensive heat treatment facilities etc. we did dozens of such checks every day, it was the first stop in diagnosing components coming in for rework to asses in use damage due to heat and part of the QA before leaving the shop after machining and/or heat treatment.


----------



## Modernist (10 Mar 2012)

CHJ":3igxq0w7 said:


> As a matter of interest, any members got access to Brinell or Rockwell testing facilities ?
> 
> Having extensive heat treatment facilities etc. we did dozens of such checks every day, it was the first stop in diagnosing components coming in for rework to asses in use damage due to heat and part of the QA before leaving the shop after machining and/or heat treatment.



I doubt if many have or, Ax either. If it was not blue then I can't see that any damage could have been caused.


----------



## dickm (10 Mar 2012)

Is there a University/college anywhere near the OP that has an engineering or materials science department? They would be almost certain to have hardness testers, and examining the offending iron might be a useful part of an undergraduate project. 
Or, longer shot, if there are any ex-students of the Open University Materials Science course from the 1970s around the forum, there was a metallurgical microscope and hardness testing equipment supplied to them as part of the Home Experiment Kit  .


----------



## Cheshirechappie (11 Mar 2012)

If the iron is developing chips at the cutting edge in service, it suggests that it is too brittle - in other words, too hard, not tempered enough. If the iron had been overheated by grinding, that would 'over-temper' it and soften it (I think - I'm not totally sure of the metallurgical behaviour of A2 under different heat treatments). That wouldn't lead to chipping, more likely would be a more rapid dulling of the edge than usual. Apart from that, mtr1 would have noticed bluing of the cutting edge at grinding, and thought "Silly me, have to grind past that, now" - he's been working wood long enough to know that well enough.

I think the iron is too hard, not too soft. 

I'm speculating now, but maybe LN had a batch of irons heat-treated in such a way that the tempering wasn't spot-on for some reason - operator carelessness, miscalibration of temperature instrumentation on the tempering furnace, whatever. LN may have sussed that, and being a reputable firm, replace any rogue irons that come to light (credit to LN for taking that approach).


----------



## Racers (11 Mar 2012)

Hi, Mark

I am sure I could get your blade tested at work.

Just let me know.

Pete


----------



## Jacob (11 Mar 2012)

People seem to have been complaining about A2 steel for a long time now. Surely it's pretty obvious that it's not suitable for planes and chisels using normal honing angles (25-30º) and that's all there is to it? 
Just don't buy it to start with, but if you have then get the supplier to exchange it, unless you only use steeper angles.
I've got A2 on a LV la smoother and it seems fine to me but it's never honed much below 35ºish and sometimes a lot steeper. Surprisingly soft and easy to hone, but does keep an edge; seems unlikely - you wouldn't think it'd do both.


----------



## David C (11 Mar 2012)

I clearly remember discussing the merits of A2 with both Karl Holtey and Tom L-N before they introduced it to their range.

At this time I attempted some comparitive research into the performance of several different steels. The experiment was extremely tedious, difficult and ultimately unsatisfactory ! How does one decide when an edge is so bad that it needs resharpening? This point was extremely subjective and therefore unreliable. However I was quite clear that an A2 blade was lasting several times longer than a Stanley alloy or an 01 blade in an abrasive timber. This was Doussie or Afzelia which contains quantities of mineral deposit.
Much cleverer research has been done by Brent Beach and Steve Elliot.

The blade set up was; grind 23 degrees, coarse stone 33 degrees and polishing stone 35 degrees, in a regular bevel down plane. (The 35 degree polishing angle reduces the 15 degree clearance angle by 5 degrees).

It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones. Diamond, ceramic and waterstones seem to do a good job.

Beast wishes,
David Charlesworth


----------



## Paul Chapman (11 Mar 2012)

David C":2tgod5bk said:


> It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones.



But the problem identified in this thread is about inconsistencies in A2 blades. Mark has found that the A2 blade in his LN #60 1/2 is superb whereas the A2 blade in his LN #4 has problems with the edge crumbling, even when honed at a steeper angle. Other people have posted about this before, which suggests inconsistencies in the manufacturing process.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Aled Dafis (11 Mar 2012)

I concur on the superbness (I know it's not really a word) of the A2 blade in the LN 60 1/2, however I just couldn't get on with A2 in my Veritas Low Angle planes, I kept the jack although it hardly gets used, but sold the LAS.

The LN 60 1/2 is a classic, and should be in everybody's toolkit, it really is that good!

Cheers
Aled


----------



## Modernist (11 Mar 2012)

Paul Chapman":1nnvcgvf said:


> David C":1nnvcgvf said:
> 
> 
> > It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones.
> ...



I agree with Paul. I have and have had several examples from both LN and Veritas and experienced varying performance which I have reported from time to time. On one hand skew block irons failing at 30 deg (particularly surprising with the skew) whilst my LN 4 1/2 (honed 30 deg) has never chipped or crumbled despite being used on some very hard timbers. Although I don't use micro bevels myself these would surely ease the stress on the edge and certainly raise the honing angle to a safe 32 deg plus as described by DC. Clearly if the edge fails then any life advantages are lost but, when this is not a problem then the edge life is very impressive and useful.


----------



## Jacob (12 Mar 2012)

David C":27xrixjg said:


> ...... How does one decide when an edge is so bad that it needs resharpening? This point was extremely subjective and therefore unreliable.


 In use, in the old fashioned way i.e. many hours of planing in one session, a sharpening routine and interval "evolves" naturally. So to compare sharpening intervals you'd have to study someone on the job for a longish period, and see how it pans out with different tools.


> ....
> It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones. Diamond, ceramic and waterstones seem to do a good job.
> 
> Beast wishes,
> David Charlesworth


I do mine with an oil stone and no struggling is involved at all. Couldn't be easier. 
Maybe oil stones are the answer, not the problem?
It's too simplistic to blame the user - I blame the steel. It seems to be inconsistent - which is the same as unreliable. 
So don't buy it unless you want to take pot luck and accept that you might have to exchange it.

PS just noticed the "Beast wishes" :lol:


----------



## Vann (12 Mar 2012)

David C":1czd3jfk said:


> ...*Beast* wishes,


I don't think that's a typo Jacob, I think you just have that effect on people.... (hammer)   

Cheers, Vann.


----------



## David C (12 Mar 2012)

Perhaps it's the proximity to Dartmoor?

No really, I was delighted to hear that Jacob was enjoying the benefits of A2.

David C


----------



## Jacob (12 Mar 2012)

Right. I might try honing it at 30º and then presumably I'll have something to complain about.


----------



## mtr1 (12 Mar 2012)

Paul Chapman":2y0cz5sl said:


> David C":2y0cz5sl said:
> 
> 
> > It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones.
> ...



Exactly Paul, I might of confused matters when I said my primary grinding angle was 34 deg, it is in fact about 32deg with the honed edge 34 deg. But the instructions that came with the plane from L/N states...

The blade is ground sharp at a 25°. A secondary bevel *of up to 5 degrees* helps to achieve a razor edge quickly.

So it should be okay how I originally had it set up as per instructions, which is how all my other planes and chisels are anyway. This didn't get me the results I was looking for, because the edge just kept giving me trouble at these angles. I took some of Paul's/Brian's advise and increased the primary bevel to 32°, and the honed edge at 34°. But was still getting the same results. I concluded that I must have a duff iron. I don't personally think that the primary angle makes any difference, because this isn't the bit that hits the timber, and probably could of just left it at 25° and honed the edge to 34°. I also don't think it makes any difference what I hone the iron with, be it oil stones or whatever, but I used a diamond stone, and I have a few bits of 3M? paper that matthew sent on my last order. I did use a honing jig in this instance. I have never blued any of my edge tools since I was an apprentice, and use the creusen bench grinder because I don't get much heat build up with it. I doubt I will get the iron back now, because the last thing I said was 'just send me a new iron'. Pity, because I would of liked to of got it tested properly, rather than have one of Axminsters tutors talk to me like I know pipper all.


----------



## David C (12 Mar 2012)

Mark,

Perhaps its not too late to ask Axminster for your iron?

Heat treatment problems are always a possibility.

David C


----------



## Jacob (13 Mar 2012)

mtr1":mxwgg0jk said:


> ......I doubt I will get the iron back now, because the last thing I said was 'just send me a new iron'. Pity, because I would of liked to of got it tested properly, rather than have one of Axminsters tutors talk to me like I know pipper all.


Sounds like you have tested it pretty thoroughly and proved that it's [email protected] What better test is there compared to subjecting the thing to normal use, as you would with your other irons?


----------



## Cheshirechappie (13 Mar 2012)

The following is a brief summary of data set out in Uddeholm's data sheet 'A2 Steel' (sorry - I can't do links for some reason)-

Hardening - Preheat to 650-750C, Austenising Temp. 925-970C, but ususally 940-960C. Soak at temperature for 20-40 mins, depending on final hardness required. Protect against decarburisation and oxidation during hardening.

Quench - in Martempering bath or fluidised bed at 180-220C or 450-500C, then cool in air
Or - in circulating air or atmosphere'
Or - in vacuum furnace with overpressure of gas at cooling,
Or - in oil (for small and uncomplicated tools).

Maximum achievable hardness RC 63-64.

Tempering - Temper twice with intermediate cooling to room temperature. Lowest tempering temperature 180C. Holding time at temperature min. 2 hrs. (For final hardness of RC 60, tempering temp of about 180 - 200C, depending on initial hardening temperature).

Sub-zero treatment and Aging - Immediately after quenching, the piece should be refrigerated between -40 and -80C, followed by tempering or aging. Sub-zero refrigeration for 2-3 hrs will give a hardness increase of 1-3 RC. Tempering after quenching can be replaced by aging at 110-140C, holding for 25-100 hrs.


That's quite a complex hardening regime, with plenty of scope for things to go a bit wrong in either temperatures or timings.

It's not unusual in the engineering world for things to things to take time to settle down when a new process or material is tried in a particular application. The unexpected does sometimes happen, and additions are made to the sum of experience by what transpires in practice. Quite small differences in chemical composition, forming, machining and heat treatment regimes can make a significant difference to how complex steels behave in different applications, so an element of 'try it and see' still informs the (incredibly complex) science of metallurgy.

Quite how Axminster's expert reached the conclusion he did is hard to understand - I suspect he just jumped to a conclusion without any evidence to support it.

The bulk of experience suggests that when A2 steel is correctly treated, it performs very well as a woodworking cutting-iron toolsteel. However, it is possible that some bugs may have arisen in the manufaturing process of some examples of A2 irons, and some rogue irons may still be 'out there'.


----------



## rwyoung (13 Mar 2012)

mtr1":3f6roccs said:


> No evidence, the guy asked what I had used to re-grind the bevel, and I told him a bench grinder. He then told me that was the problem then, I must of heated the iron and ruined the hardness. I told him that the stone I used was a soft white, on a slow bench grinder, he told me that makes no difference. I then felt the need to tell him my occuption and how long I had been doing it, and that I hadn't had a problem with my other A2 irons/chisels or for that matter any of my other edge tools.
> He then went on to say that the primery bevel was a bit strange at 25 degrees, I didn't bother to tell him that it was in fact about 34 degrees, as I was starting to feel a little bit cheesed off. I think I might of said it wasnt anything I had done, and have had the iron for a while and have tried to make it work, I thought it was a tempering fault at source as I had never been able to get a lasting edge on it. Do others not re-grind bevels on a bench grinder? I would compare this irons edge to a broken digestive biscut after planing oak for 5 mins. As jake has stated, thankfully the maufacturer doesn't think along the same lines.



Sooo, wandering in from the wrong side of the pond:

I would suggest you arrange to get your A2 blade back from Axminster and find an inexpensive method to mail it to LN headquarters and let them test it.

Rob Young


----------



## TheTiddles (13 Mar 2012)

Do remember that if you have overheated it and I do mean if, that you may only have done so right at the edge, you can't harness test just the edge, you have to do the bulk of the material which is away from the heat generated by the grinding process.

Aidan


----------



## tomatwark (14 Mar 2012)

Aled Dafis":1txpw1lu said:


> I concur on the superbness (I know it's not really a word) of the A2 blade in the LN 60 1/2, however I just couldn't get on with A2 in my Veritas Low Angle planes, I kept the jack although it hardly gets used, but sold the LAS.
> 
> The LN 60 1/2 is a classic, and should be in everybody's toolkit, it really is that good!
> 
> ...



I bought a couple LN blades for my Record planes about 10 years ago.

The 4 1/2 blade has been great but the one I bought for my No3 I could not get to keep an edge, also I had similar problems, although no where near as bad with my 60 1/2.

I bought a couple of Quensheng blades off Workshop Heaven last year to replace the No3 and 60 1/2 blades, and they keep their edge a lot better, so I think there is something in the idea that LN have had a problem with hardening on and off over the years, but at least it seems they are prepared to sort out the problem when someone mentions it to them, I guess in some respects it is just cheaper for them to replace the blade than get involved in a big discussion on how a user sharpens their planes.

The 60 1/2 is a lovely plane and I would not be without it.

Mark

As for this over heating of the blade the Axminster guy blamed you for, I was taught to grind my chisels and plane irons on a high speed grinder when I was an apprentice.

And while learning I did occasionally blue the odd one ( as most of us who have ground tools this way will have done at one time or another) but it only effected the cutting edge at that point and not over the whole blade and I am still using a lot of those same chisels etc 25 + years later and now they are past that spot are perfectly fine and take a good edge.

I now use a water cooled grinder, but 25 years ago they were not that common.

Tom


----------



## mtr1 (16 Mar 2012)

My old iron is being shipped to L/N for testing, and I received my new iron today . It came very sharp, and worked a treat on oak, oak knots, and some hemlock knots for the ultimate test. My new iron has had a hardness test, judging by the tiny dent. I'm very happy with how Lie Nielsen have stepped up, and will continue to buy their products, but perhaps not from Axi.


----------



## Paul Chapman (16 Mar 2012)

That's good news, Mark. LN have a good reputation for customer service and will always sort out problems with their products.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Karl (16 Mar 2012)

Glad you've got the new blade sorted Mark.

I've had a recent experience with Axi where I bought a LN plane only to find that it didn't come in the normal blue sealed bag. Curious. Then on checking the plane over, there were a few glaring cosmetic flaws with the finish, and it seemed clear to me that the plane had previously been returned to Axi. So I did the same - fair play, they refunded me no problem, but I don't think it should have been sent out in the first place. 

I'm also surprised that they haven't chipped into this thread - they're normally on the ball with picking up on -ve threads.

Cheers

Karl


----------

