# Dust Extraction AGAIN (Sorry Guys!)



## gregmcateer (16 Jul 2017)

Having read loads of threads here and elsewhere, the (general) consensus seems to be to use as large a bore as possible.

Having said that, SunnyBob (IIRC), reduces from 100mm to 63mm almost straight out of the vac and still achieves satisfactory suck, (if I can say such a thing without censure  ).

My proposed setup is;

1. Bandsaw (which has a 100mm exit.
2. Lathe with whatever I want, ending in a hood/hopper type thing
3. Either another hose or use disconnect from lathe to use as shop floor vac
to;
Extractor (a secondhand Woodstar with a 100mm inlet)
via;
A Cyclone of some sort (yet to be bought), dropping into a 60 litre barrel.

Should I just pipe into the barrel side, then back out the top, or should I;
a) Make / buy (if they exist at minimal cost) a 100mm inlet and outlet cyclone, or
b) reduce down to 63mm and get a 20 quid cyclone?

OR, (just thought of this), reduce bandsaw down immediately and pipe whole setup in 63mm?

Answers on a postcard in silly person-proof format, if you please.

Many thanks in advance

Greg


----------



## dzj (16 Jul 2017)

I don't think you'll be able to catch the finer particles at the source with 63mm piping. 
You'll need some kind of additional air filtration.


----------



## gregmcateer (17 Jul 2017)

Thanks, dzj.

I do have a jet air filtration unit. I was wondering more about the pipe sizing throughout. Mike Pentz seems to indicate that anything less than 4" diameter is sacrilege in the extraction world.

Although it is only a hobby workshop and max distance from machine to collection 2.5m, I don't want to under-do it and regret it.

Greg


----------



## gregmcateer (18 Jul 2017)

Been thinking about this a bit more overnight, (Really must learn how to sleep without workshop-based dreams).

Can anyone advise - Is it good / bad / irrelevant to reduce the pipe from 100mm to 63mm, (either immediately out of the bandsaw, or later on near the cyclone) then back up to 100 at the vac?

TIA

Greg


----------



## CHJ (18 Jul 2017)

For entraining the dust produced when sanding a reasonable sized item on the lathe you need the maximum airflow past the turned piece possible.

I'd aim for 100mm with the maximum airflow rate possible and some form of cowling/funnelling to ensure the air drawn in is coming across the work piece as much as possible and not just bypassing behind the work.

Do not rely on shop air filtration to protect your lungs, it keeps the shop cleaner in the long run but if it's collecting dust then your lungs are doing the same in parallel.

Bandsaws are notorious for spraying the dust around, albeit the bulk of it in the lower compartment, once again the more extraction airflow volume you can achieve the more chance you have of collecting it.

Re. stepping ducting size down and then back up, If you reduce the size of ducting and restrict the airflow rate, it will hold the dust in suspension in the smaller duct but the moment it opens out into a larger bore it is likely to drop the dust out of suspension and leave it lying in the larger duct, (it may also leave dust in the larger collecting duct because flow rate was not high enough for the bore to entrain the dust.

Large systems often have an air bleed system in the far end of the systems larger ducting to maintain the air volume flow to stop this happening if smaller feed ducts restrict the flow rate.


----------



## gregmcateer (18 Jul 2017)

Thanks Chas, for the detailed reply.

For lathe area, I'm planning a cowl as you describe. Plus I wear a 3M powered mask like yours.

Regarding your para:
"Re. stepping ducting size down and then back up, If you reduce the size of ducting and restrict the airflow rate, it will hold the dust in suspension in the smaller duct but the moment it opens out into a larger bore it is likely to drop the dust out of suspension and leave it lying in the larger duct, (it may also leave dust in the larger collecting duct because flow rate was not high enough for the bore to entrain the dust."

If the 100mm duct goes to the barrel / cyclone, (stepped down or not), then out to the 100mm pipe on the vac, is it likely to have dropped the majority of the dust in the barrel, before it reaches the larger pipe?

TIA

Greg


----------



## dzj (18 Jul 2017)

gregmcateer":9w2j8g9p said:


> Thanks Chas, for the detailed reply.
> 
> 
> If the 100mm duct goes to the barrel / cyclone, (stepped down or not), then out to the 100mm pipe on the vac, is it likely to have dropped the majority of the dust in the barrel, before it reaches the larger pipe?
> ...


Yes, this is what a cyclone is for. 
Finer dust will not drop in the barrel, but a further filtration step is needed. 
Some people skip such a step and vent it directly outside. Works well in the warmer months, but not so when your shop is heated.


----------



## gregmcateer (18 Jul 2017)

dzj,
Gotcha. I hadn't realised the finer dust won't have dropped, but it's obvious when I thin about it. Is the filter in the vac sufficient, or am I then blowing the worst dust into my workshop?


----------



## sunnybob (18 Jul 2017)

My system appears to not work according to most here.
Strangely, my system works extremely well.
At least 95% of ALL dust is collected and seperated by the 63 mm cyclone into the hopper, leaving the main drum empty. There is a truck type filter over the fan motor, which of course gets blocked by fine dust and has to be brushed out once every month or so.

The last time I emptied the plastic bucket it was 3/4 full, and the only thing inside the main extractor drum was a pair of plastic gloves that I (forgot) to remove from the bench.
By the way, those 20 quid cyclones are NOT 63 mm, they are mostly 50 mm and are fairly useless if you have a 100mm outlet machine.


----------



## gregmcateer (18 Jul 2017)

Thanks for that, Bob.
(btw, your photos have disappeared from your original post)
Greg


----------



## dzj (18 Jul 2017)

As Bob says, a cyclone will catch 95% of the larger particles. Catching the smaller than 1 micron dust requires
a good second stage filter. Google 'dust collector canister filter'.
I send these particles into the atmosphere, something I can get away with as my shop is surrounded by gardens and such.


----------



## CHJ (18 Jul 2017)

My lathe extraction is arranged with very coarse filtering to maximise airflow, (it will happily take a 75mm cube of wood as far as the extractor fan along about 3 metres of 100mm duct and a 100mm polishing mop all the way through to the bin). The fine and not so fine dust is vented to the external extractor shed and outside air.

My Bandsaw, Chopsaw, Bench Top Thicknesser and 300mm Disk Sander is now looked after by a cheap 100mm inlet drum extractor from Rutlands, (switched between appliances.) this has a fine Cartridge filter and paper intermediate filter bag reducing the filter load. It's the most effective collection of the fine dust I've had to date after several incarnations of chip extractor setups with drop bins etc.

Don't know how long the cheap unit will last but it sure sucks a lot of air.


----------



## sunnybob (18 Jul 2017)

gregmcateer":6jbxsyrp said:


> Thanks for that, Bob.
> (btw, your photos have disappeared from your original post)
> Greg



yeah, have you read the photobucket threads? They now want to go from a FREE hosting site, to a £400 a year subscription site. That would mean me paying about a tenner everytime I posted a pic EVERY YEAR i want the pic to be visible.
No way Jose.

Untill I find something else... no pics.
If there is a specific thing you want a pic of I'm happy to attach it to a pm for you.


----------



## gregmcateer (18 Jul 2017)

Thanks, Bob.

I think I've sussed your setup by looking at it last time, before they held you to ransom.

If I'm stuck I'll PM you

Greg


----------



## sunnybob (18 Jul 2017)

anytime


----------



## yanky (19 Jul 2017)

Do check noise levels.
It seems the cyclones are noisier than the standard dust extractors - even if they have induction motors. If you look at Axminster, they rate some of their cyclones at xxdB (at 3m), because they don't sell well due to the noise they make.
If you work alone, it's fine with ear defenders, but not if you want to talk to someone while you work.


----------



## CHJ (19 Jul 2017)

Following on the comments above about noise, with my setup:-

Chip extractor on lathe (positioned outside shed) is in itself not noisy but the airflow rate achieved generates enough noise to render open listening to radio a no go. 

Cheap Dust extractor used elsewhere is at the 'really should use ear defenders' level. Acceptable for the occasional use I require.


----------



## yanky (19 Jul 2017)

That's very good to put it outside.
I have a Jet extractor, with a micro filter. I'm struggling with the noise issue more than the dust. An air filter will help pick up the micro particles, but I don't have anywhere to move the extractor outside of the workshop. If you come across anything quiet, do let me know. Some noise might be inevitable, but there must be guys here that can advise you on that.


----------



## gregmcateer (19 Jul 2017)

yanky":1u6giap5 said:


> If you come across anything quiet, do let me know. Some noise might be inevitable, but there must be guys here that can advise you on that.



Yanky,

I'll disclaim any practical (and theoretical) knowledge, as I'm learning here, too. However SunnyBob put a link to his set up thread. Although access to his photos has been killed by the Photobucket, I did see it before disappearing. He has put the extractor in a sound-insulated box and says it is very satisfactory. When asked about heat, he said no problems, there.

I think I'll go this route, too, as I don't have the space to take Chas' approach and house it outside the workshop.

Am currently searching for sheet material to make a cyclone to take 100mm pipe. Might use printer's zinc sheet or even dismantled paint tins if I can get large enough and achieve a good seal. - Thoughts on this welcome, folks.

Greg


----------



## sunnybob (19 Jul 2017)

at great personal expense... (hey, time is money ya know!)

22mmMDF, some old blankets and furniture webbing. and some 12 mm ply sound baffles in the lower section.
Took the sound down from red arrows on display, to next doors vacuum with the windows shut. Cutting on the bandsaw makes more noise than the extraction does. In fact sometimes I finish bandsawing only to realise I forgot to switch the extraction on.


----------



## gregmcateer (19 Jul 2017)

He's good that Mr Bob!!


----------



## sunnybob (19 Jul 2017)

To quote Will I am (did you watch voice kids? un bluddy believable),
I'm on fyah







you can see the fine dust in the box under the 3/4 size traffic cone. 100 mm out the cabinet into the elbow, necked down to 63 mm immediately.


----------



## gregmcateer (19 Jul 2017)

Not just on fyah. You iz the absolute shiz.

Am particularly lovin the fact the road cone is completely identifiable as such. (Bought, given or, dare I say it, STOLEN from the side of the road?)


----------



## sunnybob (20 Jul 2017)

No no, I obtained the cone completely legally. I got it from the man who actually saw it fall off the back of a lorry that did not have a legible number plate, and the cone has no identifying markings, and he told me that the local bobby did not want to be bothered with the lost and found paperwork.

uckfayofffay was, I believe, the technical term used by the constabulary.


----------



## yanky (20 Jul 2017)

Thanks gregmcateer and sunnybob.
Amazing stuff.


----------



## givusaclue (22 Aug 2017)

hi
first post, but been a lurker a long time, i'm in the process of sorting my woodbutchery man cave for dust extraction & was wondering if there's any reason why i shouldn't set it up like an electrical ring main or air line circuit, i.e. a full loop around the walls in say 100mm with a few takeoffs in 100mm to suit thicknesser, table saw & jointer etc, then a few for with 63mm type takeoffs all strategically placed for other fixed items & a couple of points where i may need to use router etc. in the middle of the floor hanging down to tag in where required all using blastgates.
one takeoff at 100mm for the extractor via a cyclone.
i'm employing the thought that the extractor will draw from both sides of the ring to lessen pressure drop at the end of a "spur" if anything else is also in use

please be gentle with the replies, i'm a car mechanic by trade but i do like to whittle the odd tentpeg  

Steve


----------



## sunnybob (22 Aug 2017)

Nah, wont work.
All you've done is reduce the air flow in any one part by 50 per cent. At the furthest away point you will have pull from both sides cancelling each other out.
And every joint and connection also reduces the flow.

Work your ducting to have the minumum of joints and the absolute minimum of tubing.

Try to keep the blast gates as close as possible to the main pipe, other wise you will get "dead legs" where the air is just swirling rather than pulling.


----------



## givusaclue (22 Aug 2017)

sunnybob":38mw6hdc said:


> Nah, wont work.
> All you've done is reduce the air flow in any one part by 50 per cent. At the furthest away point you will have pull from both sides cancelling each other out.
> And every joint and connection also reduces the flow.
> 
> ...



thanks for that sunnybob, hadn't thought about where to locate the blastgates, but that make sense

Steve


----------



## sunnybob (23 Aug 2017)

Just to clarify my last...
I'm assuming your work space is fairly small, single garage sized, or near.
I f you have a big workshop, then having to walk across the floor to change a blast gate everytime you want to use a different machine can become a real pain, so then you might want to put them as close as possible to each machine.
Machine layout is very important to help you keep pipe run to a minimum. If you use both sides of a small space them consider the pipe to run overhead along the centre, or even diagonal, to keep the run to each machine at a minimum.
I only have a 5 x 3 metre workshop, so I have 5 outlets on mine, but they are all along one wall, so my pipe run is barely 4 metres, with the blast gates all in one place as a kind of "command centre" thats only three steps from any machine.


----------



## gregmcateer (24 Aug 2017)

Bob,
Does the 'suck' on your setup all come from a standard shop vac? - It can pull all the waste over 4 metres?
TIA
Greg


----------



## sunnybob (24 Aug 2017)

https://www.sipuk.co.uk/sip-dust-chip-collector.html

Ignore the write up, its nonsense. This machine pulls every iota of dust and chippings I produce, even small pieces of wood and the occasional pencil. From a bench top thicknesser to vacuuming the floor at the end of the day.
From the 100mm inlet, it goes straight into a 62 mm cyclone and then along 62 mm tubing.

The bags are a pain. Since adding the cyclone I have done away with the bags altogether. I just accept that I have to get in there and brush the air filter out more often. I can get inside the noise reducing cabinet, pull the can out, brush the filter, and put it all back within 10 minutes. No big deal.


----------



## gregmcateer (24 Aug 2017)

Perfect. That looks the same as my Woodfast one.
Thanks Bob.
Greg


----------



## givusaclue (24 Aug 2017)

sunnybob":2k0elor9 said:


> Just to clarify my last...
> I'm assuming your work space is fairly small, single garage sized, or near.
> I f you have a big workshop, then having to walk across the floor to change a blast gate everytime you want to use a different machine can become a real pain, so then you might want to put them as close as possible to each machine.
> Machine layout is very important to help you keep pipe run to a minimum. If you use both sides of a small space them consider the pipe to run overhead along the centre, or even diagonal, to keep the run to each machine at a minimum.
> I only have a 5 x 3 metre workshop, so I have 5 outlets on mine, but they are all along one wall, so my pipe run is barely 4 metres, with the blast gates all in one place as a kind of "command centre" thats only three steps from any machine.



my workshop is approx 3m wide x 9m long, i need to think long & hard about equipment layout.
my next organisational step is a mitre saw station along the lines of the Jay Bates one for sheer tool & consumables storage as my workshop is a pigsty at the minute due to having too many jobs on the go at any time!

thanks for the advice

Steve


----------

