# My new tropical aquarium setup.



## ColeyS1 (27 Mar 2018)

Took on my nieces goldfish a month or so ago and really thought they were interesting. Decided to treat myself to a larger tropical tank at the weekend. 
This is how it's looking now-





Not quite how I was expecting my evening to pan out !! Ha.

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## sunnybob (28 Mar 2018)

I'm not quite sure if its an early april fools or not. :?: 
i think we need more info on future upgrades, like an actual tank and stuff =D> =D> 

If you are new to tropicals it was my hobby for many years and I owned a tropical fish shop for 5 years so can advice if needed.
If youre not new , then its still a genuine offer 8) :lol:


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

Thanks Sunnybob, I'd really like to pick your brains after I sort out this catastrophe. I picked up a second hand tank on sunday with fish, heater and everything I'd need to get started. All was well and they survived the move. Looked at the tank last night and noticed the level had dropped around half inch, then noticed the damp patch on the floor.




This is what I found when I emptied the tank.




The cabinet that came with it already looked like it had swelled up at some point (the edging tape was narrower than the top thickness) I just put this down to water changes spillages. 
I put the cabinet onto the laminate floor and noticed it was rocking (6 feet on the base) and thought I'd packed it level. Perhaps as the tank got full it may have further squished the laminate floor and created some tension ? I'm gutted it happened but am somewhat glad I did it to a second hand tank (70 quid) rather than a new one. I shut my dog in the bedroom and headed off in my car to 'pets at home' hoping to have a plan by the time i arrived. I left the fish in an unlidded container which I've now discovered was a really bad idea. On my return I found a fish had jumped out onto the floor and was pretty much lifeless. 

Things can only get better now I hope !

This is how it looked shortly after the move (murky water)




This is the blue fish that decided to jump out, rather than put up with my nonsense.








I'm hoping the others will recover from the drama, but they've been through a lot since Sunday. 

Trying to sleep last night after reading about exploding tanks and catastrophic heater failures. 

Coley

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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

You can repair the tank - just silicone a sheet of glass over the crack. Make sure it's aquarium silicone, not sanitary. Your bristlenose needs a piece of bogwood (or mopani root or another safe wood) in the tank, as they and plecs are algae grazers and need wood to sharpen their "teeth" on. Not too big a piece as it'll make your water the colour of cold tea. The blue fish is/was a gourami. You will need a test kit PH in the first few months as the PH will swing quickly. Every second time you go to feed them don't.
It's best aways to put a sheet of polystyrene under the tank to take up irregularities between it and the base.
I had at one time a five foot tank, four four foots and four smaller ones.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

Thanks Phil. That's what I'm looking into doing at the moment. I've already got the best part of a full tube of aquarium sealant and have ordered a couple more. Do you think I'd be better having a full bottom piece cut, or literally a 6 inch wide strip ? I've got some laminated glass I could cut, but it would only be the narrow strip repair I could do and am a little wary of what adhesive they may have used to bond the two. 
I'll get a piece of bogwood for it thank you. It seemed to get a little tangled in the net but I'm hoping it will survive/be alright. 

I'm getting mixed messages with the feeding which is one question I was going to ask. All the instructions say twice a day, other people have said once a day and a fish shop has said once every two days is fine. 

Do you still keep any fish ?

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

Forgot to mention, I bought some ph testing strips and I think I have an ammonia test kit. I managed to move 40 litres of existing water (130 litre tank) so hopefully I've some good bacteria left in that. I added some bacteria balls, not entirely sure what they do but think they help with the tank ?

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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

I have one small tank atm with two plecs and two goldfish - it's at the bottom end of tropical temperature. We had three house moves in two years which wasn't ideal. I didn't want the ****** goldfish but the boy won one at the fair then swmbo bought another in case it was lonely. You are far,far more likely to create problems by over feeding them than underfeeding established, planted tanks are probably easier to maintain (once up and running) as the water tends to stay a little more stable and there's more natural foodstuff for the vegetarians. I feed mine when I remember.  
Any glass that will cover the crack will do - there's very, very little stress on it.
I assume you have some form of filtration?


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

Thanks Phil,I'll feed them once every two days then. The temporary tank has now crudely got filtration system from the cracked one. It's got the noodles, carbon and pads








I think I just need to gradually replace the noodles, a few each month and the carbon 6-8 weeks ?
Your goldfish situation sounds similar to mine 





How long after patching the tank should I leave the silicone to cure ? The tube doesn't mention anything about drying time.

Cheers
Coley

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## sunnybob (28 Mar 2018)

Use a piece of glass that is almost the size of the bottom. If you use a small strip the downwards pressure will make the cracks spread and youre back where you started.

A litre of water weighs 1 kilo. Work out how many litres it holds and thats your KG weight. add the tank itself, the hood, rocks and bogwood, stand et al, and you are up to a very serious weight. Make sure the floor will hold that weight without bowing or bouncing as someone walks by.

Use a good bead of silicone, like you would spread wood glue from a bottle before you spread it.
Just rest the glass on the broken bit and use some soft weights (piles of books or similar) to lightly compress the silicone.

Leave it TWENTY FOUR HOURS, OR YOULL BE BACK WHERE YOU STARTED AGAIN.

If the glass bottom is resting on any solid material, thats what cracked it. You need some 1/4" polystyrene from the pet shop to lay underneath it, or one minute piece of grit will crack it again.

A tip on the poly, you will find its a sheet the same size or bigger than your tank. That tank looks pretty heavy, so I would use 6" wide strips of poly across the base, with a few inches gap between each sheet. If there is a seriously heavy weight on poly the ends sag but the middle cant, so it bows, and youre back where you started again.

Once sealed and filled, DO NOT pile up a rock wall unless you silicone them together.
Many fish burrow in the gravel and I have seen a 6 ft tank destroyed by rocks falling down onto the base (not to mention several hundred pounds worth of fish dead because it happened while the owner was at work). 

The fish that died was an opaline gourami. its a top feeder, so the way to stop them jumping is to lay floating plants across the top of the water. Then they can see the surface and will feed off the plants.

Feeding. Oh boy, to a fish keeper, thats a sharpening thread and a half.

Heres the FACTS.

Fish will keep eating, even when they are full. They have a valve that closes the stomach when full and allows the food to just go straight through. This allows them to always be full if a drought suddenly arrives.
Have you ever seen long strings of "pooh" from a fishes bottom? Theres too much food available to the fish.
Have you ever seen the fish in a dealers tank go absolutely berserk when you get near the tank? Theres not enough food.
The unscrupulous dealer will keep the fish starved 
A/ to save money on food
B/ to save having to clean the filters so often
C/ to make the customer go "ooh look, they like me!" and buy something.

So, to recap, you can feed the fish as often as you like, but the QUANTITY is everything. If its still floating after five minutes youve put too much in. if they act like a shoal of piranhas when you go near, put more in.

Its a great hobby. I was given a 6 ft x 18" square tank made of 1 1/2"" angle iron with 1/2" shop plate glass. That was my first tank!
I ended up with a shop with 150 tanks selling ONLY fish.

Rather than bogging down the site, I'm always happy to discuss any thing else through the pm system.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

A whole long post just bleddy disappeared ..... again. I think it happens when someone else posts at exactly the same time. Carbon is probably good on a new tank, but I don't use it. My noodles are eight years old. Let your filter get dirty, don't clean it until it starts to clog - it's the bacteria thay do the job as well as the physical filtration. Get some water conditioner for water changes, it gets rid of chlorine and chloramine.I've always repaired mine with strips and every tank I've acquired that's been repaired has been done likewise - the water pressure is exactly the same right acoss the base as long as you don't dump a boulder on the crack there's no reason to presume it will travel. Get some guppies or something to help the tank settle - if you buy expensive fish you'll likely lose them, some are notoriously mortal in new setups. Do some research - you cannot expect fish that need pH6 water and fish that need pH8 to live together.


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## Brandlin (28 Mar 2018)

Phil.p - re disappearing posts. You mentioned this before in a thread elsewhere and I replied.
IF some one posts on a thread while you are replying to it, then you get a warning that basically says "someone else has posted while you were typing - do you still want to post your reply?" you need to click the yes/post button again (I forget the exact wording).
It's an intentional feature of the forum software that gives you the opportunity to alter your post based on the new posts.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

No, that doesn't happen when I lose them - it does happen at other times.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

sunnybob":2bj92oki said:


> Use a piece of glass that is almost the size of the bottom. If you use a small strip the downwards pressure will make the cracks spread and youre back where you started.
> 
> A litre of water weighs 1 kilo. Work out how many litres it holds and thats your KG weight. add the tank itself, the hood, rocks and bogwood, stand et al, and you are up to a very serious weight. Make sure the floor will hold that weight without bowing or bouncing as someone walks by.
> 
> ...


Absolutely fantastic Sunnybob. Lots of info there I need to digest. One thing that quite important is to get this repair underway. Would I be better asking for 6mm or perhaps if they can't do that asking for two pieces of 4mm and sandwich them together ? 
The tank has a glass bottom, then a thin layer of white foamy stuff (around 1-2mm thick) then a plastic base




Would this still benefit from having a piece of thicker foam to take up any unevenness ? I'd sooner spend now and potentially save a mess. I've also seen plastic mesh type material that goes inside the tank. I think it's to help spread any pin point shocks but can only be a good thing ?
Thanks for your explanation, I can see it being an interesting hobby if I can get past this initial slip up.

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

phil.p":1xq1tt0u said:


> A whole long post just bleddy disappeared ..... again. I think it happens when someone else posts at exactly the same time. Carbon is probably good on a new tank, but I don't use it. My noodles are eight years old. Let your filter get dirty, don't clean it until it starts to clog - it's the bacteria thay do the job as well as the physical filtration. Get some water conditioner for water changes, it gets rid of chlorine and chloramine.I've always repaired mine with strips and every tank I've acquired that's been repaired has been done likewise - the water pressure is exactly the same right acoss the base as long as you don't dump a boulder on the crack there's no reason to presume it will travel. Get some guppies or something to help the tank settle - if you buy expensive fish you'll likely lose them, some are notoriously mortal in new setups. Do some research - you cannot expect fish that need pH6 water and fish that need pH8 to live together.


Whaaaaaat so noodles really don't need changing much at all ? 
When you say change the filters, do you mean just the white and black spongy ones ? I was under the impression it was the charcoal that cleaned all the nasty ammonia and nitrates from the tank ? I've got alot to learn !!! Lol

Thanks for helping make things clear. 
Need to try and get a piece of glass at dinner time.

Out of curiosity do you know of anyone who's had catastrophic tank failure - So not dripping, I mean full on explosion ? It was seriously playing on my mind last night. I was thinking I'd need to keep it on a safety reservoir or some kind of waterproof tray that would drain the water outside. Both ideas completely useless if it were to just explode !! Ha 
I'm glad this has happened now so I'm a little more prepared for a clean up. I have lots of containers and I need to get the wet vac down from the attic just incase I need to clean up.
Thanks Phil
Coley



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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

I'd love to see some pictures of what tanks and setups you guys had [WINKING FACE]

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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

A long time ago I used to keep planted tropical tanks for years, and I'd recommend them to anyone interested in keeping fish for two reasons;

1) They look gorgeous
2) Once you've set them up, they dramatically reduce the level of maintenance you need in a tank because there's much more of an ecological balance.

I'll try and find some of my old pictures at some point, but check out ukaps.org.uk to see what I mean. I'm not logging on the site again, I'll just end up wanting to get another tank(s)......


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

The plastic mesh is often buried just below the surface to prevent the fish digging. I've used the rolls of polystyrene insulation two or three layers deep, and I've cut up neoprene camping mats. Even 25mm stuff from Wickes or somewhere - https://www.wickes.co.uk/Kay-Metzeler-G ... m/p/210801

All the noodles do is provide a far greater surface area for the water to flow over, allowing the bacteria and minute life forms longer access. I've got plastic balls as well as the ceramics in mine, which are like little 25mm diameter mesh globes - these do the same thing. For the most part you just rinse whatever the filter medium is through with tank water and put it back, you wouldn't normally replace anything on most filters unless you had a problem, and problems usually come with new setups - which is why for a while it'll pay to change the carbon. My cannister filter hasn't had anything in it changed for about eight years and when I clean it you couldn't see through a small glass of the water. I use it for my houseplants.
When my alterations are done ...


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## Brandlin (28 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":1q2wfwze said:


> ... check out ukaps.org.uk to see what I mean. I'm not logging on the site again, I'll just end up wanting to get another tank(s)......



Site not found... ? Do you have any other address? This thread is rekindling my interest in a tropical tank - I've ad a koi pond for a number of yars (well a garden pond really but it does have a couple of koi in it)


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## Homers double (28 Mar 2018)

You ask about catastrophic tank failure .....
For over 15 years I had tropical and a marine aquariums untill I had a catastrophic tank failure.
I was woken up one night to a buzzing sound, being half asleep it took a while for me to realise it was the sound of a pump running dry, so down stairs I go, hit the carpet and walk towards the light switch and squish squish under foot, my largest tank had cracked diagonally and dumped the water on to the floor.
The tank was a bespoke made one by my local aquarium supplier it was 1.8m x 600mm x 450mm. It had been in place for over 7 years with no issues. 
I emptied one of the kids plastic toy boxes and did very similar to your emergency set up, I lost a few fish but my golden nugget plek survived which was my favourite and he was about 5 years old.
The real issue was the clean up, I hired a carpet cleaner the next day and thoroughly cleaned the carpets, which seemed ok, but within a couple of days the smell was unbelievable, I had to get rid of carpet and underlay very sharpish, my Mrs was doing her nut, I even had to sanitize the floor screed as that stunk as well, the whole house then stunk of jeyes fluid, funny how you can rarely please the wife, I know which smell I preferred and it wasn’t the fishy water one.
I then got a lot smaller tropical tank, but in the back of my mind I had the fear of another disaster, a couple of years later I sold off every thing. That was 7 years ago 
I am regularly tempted to get another marine tank, one of my good friends has one and every time we’re there I spend most of it just looking at the fish.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

I had one of these -https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5ft-5-foot-juwel-rio-400-fish-tank-aquarium-/271719333169
I bought it with a leak for £12.  The "leak" was because they had put another powerful filter in it running from front to back rather than end to end and the pumped water was sloshing down the back. I sold it for £50 following swmbos hissy fit about an electric bill. :roll:


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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

Brandlin":fnyypvrs said:


> LancsRick":fnyypvrs said:
> 
> 
> > ... check out ukaps.org.uk to see what I mean. I'm not logging on the site again, I'll just end up wanting to get another tank(s)......
> ...



My error, it's just .org not .org.uk


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## sunnybob (28 Mar 2018)

That base should be fine. But you need to be careful if its glass flat to the base. make sure you brush the surface well before final siting of the tank. All that weight over a small piece of grit exerts enormous pressure upwards.
6 mm glass should be ok. Like all advice, everyone has their own theory, and if it works, it works, but if it were my tank I would lay a new bottom over the cracked one. You ever seen a windscreen crack slowly work its way across a screen?

Theres a whole science behind aquarium filters, enough to fill several large books, but (very basicly) the carbon absorbs ammonia. but not forever, either change it or wash it and bake it in the oven to recharge it.
Sponges remove the large solid wastes and also act as breeding ground for good bacteria.
Ceramics are also good breeding grounds. You NEED the bacteria. Wash the filters when you notice the return flow is dropping but DONT wash everything at the same time or youll have problems.
Times between filter cleaning vary entirely on how many fish and how often you feed.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

I'll read the new threads later but at the moment it's the glass I'm rushing to get before the bank holiday weekend 





This is my template so will probably be 4mm bigger. I Daren't go any tighter. That should be ok shouldn't it ?

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## sunnybob (28 Mar 2018)

No need to make it so big its hard to fit in there. get it so the cracks are well covered over.I would go to about a half inch short all the way round. glue that in, and then seal any glass edges so the fish cant scrape themselves when digging.

Give the sealer time to set. or youll be sorry.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":dlap61gn said:


> A long time ago I used to keep planted tropical tanks for years, and I'd recommend them to anyone interested in keeping fish for two reasons;
> 
> 1) They look gorgeous
> 2) Once you've set them up, they dramatically reduce the level of maintenance you need in a tank because there's much more of an ecological balance.
> ...


I'll take live plants into consideration. To be honest I was really but off by the live plants that came with the tank. They were completely hacked to pieces and looked dreadful. I did chuck 3 moss balls in the tank thinking it'd be a good compromise. I'll have a look at that website, nice one. 

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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

I'll happily chat to you at length about how to get started if you don't want to trawl the site.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

phil.p":1ga87k07 said:


> The plastic mesh is often buried just below the surface to prevent the fish digging. I've used the rolls of polystyrene insulation two or three layers deep, and I've cut up neoprene camping mats. Even 25mm stuff from Wickes or somewhere - https://www.wickes.co.uk/Kay-Metzeler-G ... m/p/210801
> 
> All the noodles do is provide a far greater surface area for the water to flow over, allowing the bacteria and minute life forms longer access. I've got plastic balls as well as the ceramics in mine, which are like little 25mm diameter mesh globes - these do the same thing. For the most part you just rinse whatever the filter medium is through with tank water and put it back, you wouldn't normally replace anything on most filters unless you had a problem, and problems usually come with new setups - which is why for a while it'll pay to change the carbon. My cannister filter hasn't had anything in it changed for about eight years and when I clean it you couldn't see through a small glass of the water. I use it for my houseplants.
> When my alterations are done ...


Ok Phil, this make keeping fish an even better hobby. I was thinking I'd have to be buying filters everymonth and constantly changing/cycling the noodles. I guess a camping mat as per your suggestion can't do any harm. 
I had the dehumidifier running where the tank leaked and thought I'd have a little look at the damage it'd done to the cabinet (hopefully will make a better one)




Peeling back the film type laminate revealed a lot of black mould type balls.








Is that the kind of damage I could expect to see from water change dribbles or could it be showing a small previous leak. ...? 

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

Homers double":2nnqajj0 said:


> You ask about catastrophic tank failure .....
> For over 15 years I had tropical and a marine aquariums untill I had a catastrophic tank failure.
> I was woken up one night to a buzzing sound, being half asleep it took a while for me to realise it was the sound of a pump running dry, so down stairs I go, hit the carpet and walk towards the light switch and squish squish under foot, my largest tank had cracked diagonally and dumped the water on to the floor.
> The tank was a bespoke made one by my local aquarium supplier it was 1.8m x 600mm x 450mm. It had been in place for over 7 years with no issues.
> ...


That's just horrendous !!!! I'm still struggling to come to terms with having a live grenade in my living room that go boom at anytime. This tank is around 600mm wide x 600mm high by 400mm deep. Would a more cubed shape one be less like to pop ? I had this cabinet in mind but am now seriously thinking I should try and build one to allow for tank failure. I really like the size of this one but seeing the water pee out has left me seriously on edge. You'd almost need to make a wet room to really prepare for failure.

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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

I would think there'd been a leak there for a long time.


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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

Either long term leak or they've never wiped up when they've done maintenance and made a mess. Just lightly scrape the surface and make sure it's only superficial, you don't want the stand being compromised.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

sunnybob":2unshbfu said:


> No need to make it so big its hard to fit in there. get it so the cracks are well covered over.I would go to about a half inch short all the way round. glue that in, and then seal any glass edges so the fish cant scrape themselves when digging.
> 
> Give the sealer time to set. or youll be sorry.


I noticed your comment Bob just as I was walking out the glass shop lol.He made the glass to the template size so it was reasonably loose. Only £8.80 which I thought was quite reasonable.
Here's the silicone before having the 6mm patch put on top.





I'm really wondering if I should have done a few more full rings around the bottom- too late now though.
This is it after being gently pushed in place, pile of books put on afterwards as per your suggestion [WINKING FACE]









I sealed around the patch with silicone and quite a bit of it found its way under the patch edge. I then filled the rest of the gap up and tried to get it over the top of the existing silicone and onto the clean glass. I'm really not sure if I did it well enough. I just wish I used more silicone around the joint area. Oh well


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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

Bloody hell, with the strength of aquarium silicone that's definitely there to stay now! Haha.


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## SteveF (28 Mar 2018)

damn post dissapeared
anyway
nice to see a post about fish tanks in a woodwork forum
I have been keeping fish for over 20 years
down to a 2 foot cube now
even used to have an 8 x 4 x 4 tank in garden for a few years

Steve


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":24231pks said:


> Either long term leak or they've never wiped up when they've done maintenance and made a mess. Just lightly scrape the surface and make sure it's only superficial, you don't want the stand being compromised.


It'd be nice to think it could have been compromised before i took it on. I was thinking as a temporary measure, I could jack plane it flat and then have a worktop sink cutout screwed on top. 

This is the weird thing... I put the filter section and the light unit on an arm chair while I set the tank up. After I removed everything I noticed a tiny shard of shiny glass on the chair. I didnt think anything of it until now. I've never broke glass in that room and can only think it must have fallen from either the filter unit or lamp unit.

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":sgmddzg9 said:


> Bloody hell, with the strength of aquarium silicone that's definitely there to stay now! Haha.


I really hope so. I went to get some nicer coloured gravel earlier and had a close look at another tank. I was really surprised with the silicone. It was 8mm glass with the tiniest of silicone gaps between the butt joints (like barely 0.5mm) All the tank had inside was about a 4mm flat champfer of silicone. That must be putting a lot of faith in the silicone holding !?!

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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

Yea aquarium stuff is a different beast to the bathroom silicone you get.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

SteveF":2m3y5cvd said:


> damn post dissapeared
> anyway
> nice to see a post about fish tanks in a woodwork forum
> I have been keeping fish for over 20 years
> ...


Got any pictures you could share ? In the short time I've had them I do find myself watching them alot. I moved the small coldwater tank so I could see it easier when I go home for lunch and dinner. They just seem so chilled and relaxed with very little input from me.
I'm very surprised by the amount of people on here who keep them !!

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":2fpt25uk said:


> Yea aquarium stuff is a different beast to the bathroom silicone you get.


Does that mean it could be a better choice for bathroom applications? 

A few years ago I followed some "guaranteed to stay white for 10 years" silicone to the letter. Partially filled the bath, masked off the bath and tiles then used a special rubber tool to smooth the silicone. After a couple years it still discoloured- ha.

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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

No it's just much more of an adhesive than bathroom silicone, plus it doesn't leach all sorts of toxic chemicals into the tank water.


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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

One of my old tanks.


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## SteveF (28 Mar 2018)

ColeyS1":3ogmusmj said:


> SteveF":3ogmusmj said:
> 
> 
> > damn post dissapeared
> ...


no pictures of latest tank 
but here is a teaser of my outdoor tank

https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/ ... a%20Graves

Steve


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":1za42krk said:


> No it's just much more of an adhesive than bathroom silicone, plus it doesn't leach all sorts of toxic chemicals into the tank water.


Quite smelly though when I stuck my head inside !
Just went and looked at ukaps.org - Gulp ! just looked at the homepage and can already tell I've wasted alot of money buying plastic plants. The homepage images make the tank look natural- I've bought a jeffing submarine for them to swim in lol. What can of worms have I just opened !?! 

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":2sr49g2b said:


> One of my old tanks.


?????????????????????????????????? Oh my goodness !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's stunningly beautiful !

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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

It's addictive trust me, but also beautiful. Doesn't have to cost the earth either, I bought very few things new, most things can be traded, bred or grown.


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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

Thanks that's kind of you. Check out UKAPS a bit more though, I'm in the little leagues with what I used to do.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

SteveF":hj2zt1py said:


> ColeyS1":hj2zt1py said:
> 
> 
> > SteveF":hj2zt1py said:
> ...


Swearings bad, but are you being fudging serious [email protected]£¥^^$_&_=$==//€/$=^^$$:&! I can't take that in, it blows my mind ! That's amazing !

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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

Psssst, Steve, we've got him now!!

One of us, one of us...


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":39pw41iv said:


> It's addictive trust me, but also beautiful. Doesn't have to cost the earth either, I bought very few things new, most things can be traded, bred or grown.


You've got me thinking now. Perhaps a more oblong shape could be easier to arrange, maybe less chance of something falling ? It seems I wrongly thought having a taller thinner tank would allow me to see the fish more. Your picture changes that entirely. The plants look as interesting as the fish! 

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## SteveF (28 Mar 2018)

i think is hooked

Steve


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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

Decide what you like, do some reading, and I'll gladly chat through any thoughts you have and steer you in the right direction. UKAPS is your single best community in the UK for this hobby (planted).


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## SteveF (28 Mar 2018)

ColeyS1":1psxk9is said:


> LancsRick":1psxk9is said:
> 
> 
> > It's addictive trust me, but also beautiful. Doesn't have to cost the earth either, I bought very few things new, most things can be traded, bred or grown.
> ...


I have co2 injection in my tank to help grow plants
a fire extinguisher supplies that
the plants can be more appealing to the fish

Steve


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

SteveF":3a4tljg5 said:


> damn post dissapeared
> Steve


Good to know it's not just mine that disappear.


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## DrPhill (28 Mar 2018)

whoops - double post. Where is the delete button?


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## DrPhill (28 Mar 2018)

I used to keep fish - I keep feeling tempted, but maybe not yet.

I kept a very natural tank, trying to replicate amazonian stream and breed apistogramma (cactuoides were my favourite) They look after the eggs and young in a very appealing way. Plus the surplus were welcome in the local fish shop (aquarist not chippy). Water was very peaty - definitely brown, and acidic - but thats what they seemed to like. plecs thrived too - I bought them small and sold them when they got too big. Loads of live plants, special light bulbs to encourage the plants, but on a strict timing. Live food too - I had a standing population of daphnia and something else whose name eludes me at present (Copepods - just remembered). No red worms though. I used coarse gravel and undergravel filters. Rarely cleaned anything - about once a month, maybe less frequently, remove 25% of the water and replace with rainwater.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

Daft question but does the type of fish have an influence on what sort of plants are used ? I've never seen anything quite like it.
I was googling last night "tall fish tank setups" to try and get ideas. I'll never be anywhere near the level that you guys are though. My main priority is making the fish comfortable over the next week and perhaps researching a new suitable substitute if this one still leaks/explodes.

Is there a brand fishtank that have a good reputation for quality? 


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## Bm101 (28 Mar 2018)

Just pour in 3 lb of common or garden salt and bosh. Marine Tank. Just like that mate. All your fish will get brighter coloured and corals will magically appear. Plus you will be able to keep squids and an octopus so you can place bets on the next World Cup so everything will pay for itself. It's a no brainer Coley.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

DrPhill":3d18gfkp said:


> I used to keep fish - I keep feeling tempted, but maybe not yet.
> 
> I kept a very natural tank, trying to replicate amazonian stream and breed apistogramma (cactuoides were my favourite) They look after the eggs and young in a very appealing way. Plus the surplus were welcome in the local fish shop (aquarist not chippy). Water was very peaty - definitely brown, and acidic - but thats what they seemed to like. plecs thrived too - I bought them small and sold them when they got too big. Loads of live plants, special light bulbs to encourage the plants, but on a strict timing. Live food too - I had a standing population of daphnia and something else whose name eludes me at present (Copepods - just remembered). No red worms though. I used coarse gravel and undergravel filters. Rarely cleaned anything - about once a month, maybe less frequently, remove 25% of the water and replace with rainwater.


How come you gave up ? I keep hearing it alot that people did keep them but then decided to give up. Apparently the guy I bought the tank and fish from lost enthusiasm when he had two predatory fish go on a killing spree. Your tank setup sounds fascinating. I hate to ask but don't suppose you've got any pictures? I'm going to copy and paste the fish names in your thread to see how they look.
Cheers

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

Bm101":14yhj7dt said:


> Just pour in 3 lb of common or garden salt and bosh. Marine Tank. Just like that mate. All your fish will get brighter coloured and corals will magically appear. Plus you will be able to keep squids and an octopus so you can place bets on the next World Cup so everything will pay for itself. It's a no brainer Coley.


Yeah I've heard it's easy peasy ! [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]Something about a power cut being a killer, 24 degrees end of, skimmers, strict ph levels and all sorts of other things that are beyond me. The fish look amazing though...

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

Steve, regarding the co2 injection, I'm guessing there's a bit more to it then just blasting it with an extinguisher? Does it need careful dosing or somehow dispensing in small amounts ? Is there any risk to the fish ?

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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

DrPhill, those fish look magnificent ! Almost like they've got multicoloured mohawks.

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## DrPhill (28 Mar 2018)

ColeyS1":3nj06idy said:


> How come you gave up ? I keep hearing it alot that people did keep them but then decided to give up. Apparently the guy I bought the tank and fish from lost enthusiasm when he had two predatory fish go on a killing spree. Your tank setup sounds fascinating. I hate to ask but don't suppose you've got any pictures? I'm going to copy and paste the fish names in your thread to see how they look.



I gave up because I moved house a couple of times. Back then I had more money than sense - it can be a very expensive hobby until you find the 'sweet spot' where plants and fish survive. Then it is only slightly expensive.

These days money and sense have evened out a bit - solely due to having less money. When I get a bit older and sense degrades balance will swing again.

No pictures. Back then we did not have camera phones. Hell, we did not even have mobile phones.


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## Phil Pascoe (28 Mar 2018)

Yes, some fish are destructive. Plecs will eat plants for pastime - oscars e.g. will dig them up overnight. Malawis need water so alkaline plants don't tend to grow well, and they're vegetarian so eat what little does grow. Small tanks often look better with shoals of one or two types of small fishes rather than a mixture - a dozen or fifteen tiger barbs look good. Some fish are shoalers and should be kept in numbers anyway. As mentioned above apistogrammas are good for a small tank - cichlids behaviour is a bit more interesting than most others especially when they breed as the look after their young. I used to breed apistogramma borellii.


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## ColeyS1 (28 Mar 2018)

I'm think I'm all fished out tonight. So much to take in, it's quite overwhelming. Silicones curing which is the main thing. Temporary plastic containers are still holding and the pumps still running. Upwards and onwards tomorrow. 
It's the tank potentially exploding that's really making me question whether I've done the right thing.
I guess 20mm thick glass with a stainless steel frame would be the only real way of ensuring there isn't a leak.

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## LancsRick (28 Mar 2018)

Step back, decide what you want and come at it afresh. You don't have to do everything from day one but some things are easier to sort from the outset.

Personally my recommendation would be a low tech planted tank with good maintenance species in there, both fish and inverts. You can expand into high tech later on, and consider going beyond a rectangular tank once you're happy with flow patterns etc. I've deliberately thrown some jargon at you to give you a few research paths to go down  hehehe


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## sunnybob (29 Mar 2018)

Talk about information overload! Dont try to run before you can walk, it will take you a long time to be comfortable with your tank and decide what you like the best, but its a very interesting hobby. Tanks DO NOT just explode. Theres always a reason and its either bad positioning on a rough surface, falling rocks or bogwood, or even an accidental knock. I made well over a 100 tanks, possibly 200, with nothing but glass and silicone and never had one leak.

Compatible fish are very important. before buying any ask the shopkeeper what will fit in with what youve got. If he's vague, then find another shop.

I liked deep tanks that were set up as a cross section of a river bed with lots of plants a off centre objects. My wife is slightly OCD, and her tanks always had one big item dead centre and all the other stuff evenly spaced.

I dont know how good this organisation are now, (its been a while since I was involved) but have a read of this.
http://www.fbas.co.uk/


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## ColeyS1 (29 Mar 2018)

LancsRick-That sounds like a plan ! I'll Google the keywords tonight. I had a quick look on ukaps and saw some builds you did in 2003. Wowsers ! The other section I looked in was hard....something setups. Zero plants at all which also looked amazing. 

They have tapatalk which means I'll be able to have a proper study once this plastic tank crisis is over. Thanks for the inspiration. I would have never dreamt a tank could have looked like that.

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## ColeyS1 (29 Mar 2018)

SunnyBob, what was your glass of choice on builds or did it vary ? Am i bonkers to even consider making a stand with built in funnel/reservoir of some sort ? 130 litres would cause a massive amount of damage. I was doing calculations at work yesterday trying to figure out how big an area would be covered in 6mm of water. I think it was about 30 square metres lol !

My fish at the moment are 4 tetras, the algie eater, clown loach and this one






The temporary tanks pretty well taped up so I won't know for sure if they've all survived until i put them back. What would you recommend for the size tank I have ? I bought some more fish food that the previous owner was using. They're red granules that float on the surface then slowly sink. 

Silly question but is it best to setup the tank empty then fill with water ? 

Thanks SunnyBob 

Coley

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## sunnybob (29 Mar 2018)

the fishes are a speckled molly and a tetra of some kind, hard to be exact from the fuzzy pic, and there are 100's of them all quite similar.
You are definitely overthinking this. There is no way to make an emergency dump of a 130 litres. live with a little danger in your life :shock: :lol: 
Giving definite numbers of fish or food is non sensical. fish grow bigger (providing theyre fed) sometimes they want more sometimes they want less.
Use a good brand name. Tetra is one of the most famous. feed as much as they want to eat in 2 or 3 minutes. If its still floating or sinking after that youre just clogging up your filters.
Back when i was building tanks it was measured in 1/8th" which would do very small show tanks for individual fish, to 1/2" plate which would make a very big tank indeed. Cross braces across the top stopped the glass from bowing out. have a good look at the tanks in the fish shop next time you visit.
Theres just too much information to give you in one message thread no matter how long it is. You have to learn as you go. You will make mistakes, fish will die untill you get it right.

Avoid any brackish water fish, avoid marines like the plague untill you have much, much more experience. Theres no money pit deeper than marine fish at home. Guppies are the most common because of their long wavy tails, but then all the other fish eat the tails that are waved in front of them. its endless. 
get the tank running, work out how to use the PH and the DH kits, discover what prefer what PH and DH, and go SLOWLY.

From my shop experience I know I'm banging my head against a wall with the excitement of a new hobby, but GO SLOWLY.

If your fish start eating tails and fins, up the food. If the water starts going cloudy, reduce the food.


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## ColeyS1 (30 Mar 2018)

Thanks for your knowledge and advice SunnyBob. Molly does sound familiar. 
I think you're right about over thinking it. I've checked my insurance and I'm covered against water escape so would only have the excess to pay if it did burst.

I made a tricoya and plywood sandwich earlier and have just finished assembling it.








Even if this gets soaking, any movement should be kept to an absolute minimum (I'm hoping) it's only temporary until the proper cupboard gets made.

The silicone had 2 days and 5 hours so far so I'm tempted to refill it tomorrow. A few friends want to come over for cider tomorrow but I'm a bit wary having the temporary plastic tank on the floor with a 5 litre keg of cider in the fridge. Do you think it's had long enough to go off yet ? The silicone around the edge was the widest part but wasn't anymore than 6mm thick.

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## sunnybob (31 Mar 2018)

24 hours is all it needs, its ready to fill.
make sure the base is super clean before siting the tank.
make sure the tank is level and exactly where you want it be BEFORE you make it into a 300 kilo monster.

You can use warm water but NOT hot! (hot water onto cold glass equals cracked glass).
To save time while the water gets up to temp. get the temp to 78F (25c) before introducing the fish. Assuming you still have the fish, the best way to transfer them is to part fill a plastic food bag with the water they are in and put a couple fish in it. Roll the bag over at the top and then float that bag in the new tank for 10 minutes. This allows the water temps to equalise slowly. Then over the next five minutes, splash some of the new water into the bag so that the two different checmical make ups mix gradually.
Then release the fish into the new tank.
you can do this with as many bags as you want at a time.
The old water will have some good bacteria in it to start the process in your newly cleaned filter.
Do this in background room lighting, NOT with the fish jammed up against the tank lights and no way to escape.
Remember I keep repeating "slowly slowly". Any sudden change in temp or chemical composition will shock the fish, and if its already under huge stress, it wont survive.


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## ColeyS1 (31 Mar 2018)

I'd guess I've still got 115 litres of the old water - 80 litres in plastic container, 25 and 10 litre drums so I'll only need to introduce maybe 15 new litres. I bought a backup heater and was thinking I'd fill the tank then let the heater get up to the same temperature as the plastic jobby. 

One of my concerns was if a small shard of glass had got stuck between the underside of the glass and the plastic base. If I could have took the plastic base off I'd have probably stuck another 6mm on the bottom for good measure. I can't see how it's fixed on, so will have to stay like it is. I feel much more confident now the temporary flimsy plastic tank has lasted for a few days. The glass one is 6mm thick, the plastic effort is probably only 3-4mm (1,1 and 1mm).

Thanks
Coley


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## LancsRick (31 Mar 2018)

Be aware a clown loach is a BIG fish. It will outgrow that tank at some point so be aware.


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## Phil Pascoe (31 Mar 2018)

They should really be kept with others, as well, they're shoalers.


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## ColeyS1 (31 Mar 2018)

LancsRick":29j8t06l said:


> Be aware a clown loach is a BIG fish. It will outgrow that tank at some point so be aware.


That was a bad choice wasn't it ?- balls ! Apparently it was gonna help with the tanks snail problem. Is it common to keep fish till a certain size then look at rehoming them or is that considered cruel ? 




I've loaded it with 110 kilos and there doesn't appear to be any rocking or issues with flatness. 


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## sunnybob (31 Mar 2018)

All fish have a maximum size that type will grow to. Provided they are fed well and water is healthy. Tank size is irrelevant. I was once called to an old housebound lady who wanted asdvice on her goldfish. She's had it 20 years from the fairground, and couldnt understand why it wouldnt stop growing. She had been told by the fairground stall holder it would only grow to three inches. It was seven inches easy. It was in the original bowl and could not swim a stroke with out hitting the other side. it could barely turn round. So i sold her a complete 18" tank set up and she was happy.
Speckled molly, around 4" would be a BIg one. Clown loach, from memory, will grow to 7" in a few years, but they do much better in a group.
No one fish will cure a snail problem. If you have snails, make it your lifes work to remove and crush them. When you buy new plants, either keep them in a quarantine tank for a week or you can get snail egg killer liquid. They are vermin in a tank (unless they are giant apple snails, they are conversation pieces, and are so large you can remove them any time you want)
Oscars (my personal favourites) are so big you give them names and talk to them easily past a foot, maybe even 15" for an old male.

But when buying fish, you need compatibility.
Barbs are very fast fish, they will nip tails of slower stuff
Almost all tetras are small and peaceful shoaling fish. Thats another classic "newbie" mistake, buying one of everything. Most small fish are much happier with their own kind, small tetras especially you should buy at least 6 at a time.


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## LancsRick (31 Mar 2018)

Snail killing options are many and varied...

1) You! Finger, tank, squish.
2) Botia striata, a small loach species, love to munch on snails.
3) Assassin snails - predatory type of snail which is actually quite pretty and will demolish all other snails in your tank.


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## sunnybob (31 Mar 2018)

After a very exhaustive search, involving two laptops, a CDROM, a USB transferance stick, I have finally found some pics of some of my fish.

But, they have not fared well. They were originally taken on 35 mm slides (remember them?), then transferred (badly) to a CD that I think is starting to deteriorate.

So be prepared,,,,,
This is one my favourites, an oscar with its eggs which I managed to get to hatch and attain sellable size. I will try to find some more that are usable, but they are in a really bad way.


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## sunnybob (31 Mar 2018)

That FBAS link I gave you, they used to sponsor national fish shows, with big trophies. people travelled all across the country with their fish in poly boxes and set them up in tiny glass tanks for the judges to score.
This one is from around the mid 80's.


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## sunnybob (31 Mar 2018)

There were serious pot hunters who would drive literally 100's of miles to win a particular class of fish trophy. I remember one group who drove from Essex to Somerset because we had a particular cup. And that was in the 80's before many of the motorways were built.

I used to organise shows for a few years, it was frightening how competitive some people got.


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## ColeyS1 (1 Apr 2018)

phil.p":vwm6kavp said:


> They should really be kept with others, as well, they're shoalers.


What would you recommend given my current situation? Get more, or perhaps look at giving it away ?

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## ColeyS1 (1 Apr 2018)

I put 3 plants in yesterday so will probably look at getting an additive to kill the snails. I saw a fish tank that had more snails than fish and wasn't really a fan. 
I was quite pleased with yesterday's effort. I cut a piece of 2mm mdf out so I could stick the background to it easily. Gave it a lick of primer all the way around then used some double sided tape (usually for mounting photographs) then used a squeegee to help apply it. 





I Think it's a lot better than having a Woodchip wallpaper background for now.
I started to fill the tank and was pleasantly surprised to see all the fish had survived the drama.












I'm now in the position I thought I was in before the crack.




I've just got a much greater respect for the tank not leaking !
Now comes the hard part of learning how to keep them healthy. I'll take your advice Sunnybob and just think about how I can setup the tank before rushing ahead. The fish seem more content then they were before and are using more of the rank instead of just mooching around the bottom.

I had no idea that fish keeping was such a serious hobby !!! Do the shows still happen today ? That looks a big ol fish in your picture !!

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## ColeyS1 (1 Apr 2018)

LancsRick":1pnevdua said:


> Snail killing options are many and varied...
> 
> 1) You! Finger, tank, squish.
> 2) Botia striata, a small loach species, love to munch on snails.
> 3) Assassin snails - predatory type of snail which is actually quite pretty and will demolish all other snails in your tank.


1 single assassin snail sounds like a good solution. What happens if I accidentally get a pregnant one though and they take over the tank ?

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## Sheffield Tony (1 Apr 2018)

I know very little I admit, but I never realised snails were considered such a problem. We always have some in our tank, they must have come in with the plants. They come and go; got quite numerous at one stage, but at other times there are only a few. We haven't done anything consciously to control them.

We do have a few "bumblebee" snails which were a deliberate introduction.

Never actually had a problem with fish getting too big - they usually expire first  Bigger problems have been what the fish shops don't tell you - aggressive little b******s (golden loach, pink kissing gourami), or nocturnal fish which look interesting in the bare shop tank but will disappear under a log never to be seen again when you get it home. Oh, and flamboyant, over-bred fish which are so fragile they are hard to keep alive beyond the fortnight. But that could just be my incompetence...


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## sunnybob (1 Apr 2018)

But that could just be my incompetence...

yup.sorry, but yup.

Some fish are hard to kill. Some fish are hard to keep alive. Thats the attraction of fishkeeping.

Clown loach will survive perfectly well on its own. But they are more active and therefore more visible in groups.

i know I'm repeating myself, but the key to ALL fishkeeping is feeding.

you have top feeders (gourami's)
you have middle feeders (barbs and tetras)
you have bottom feeders. (catfish, loaches)

Feed the top and not the bottom, you have chaos.
feed the bottom and not the top, chaos again.

Heres a tip. The three levels of feeders can be seen at an instant while looking in the dealers tank..... Where are the lips?
Quite literally, the mouth of any fish will be either pointed, up, down, or straight ahead.
The most extreme top feeder is an arrowana. In the wild it eats flies on the surface, and nothing else.
The archer fish will shoot jets of water up to knock flies off of overhead branches, Now thats a challenge, to keep them happy.
Catfish and loaches need food at the bottom. Not too much, because they will scavenge the dropping from the other two, but if nothing reaches the bottom... expect nipped fins.
Pleco catfish will suck algae from the glass, but in a standard tank theres not enough, put sinking pellets, or even bloodworm which will live in the gravel.


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## sunnybob (1 Apr 2018)

Really sorry about the quality of these pics, i havent looked at these for over 20 years.





I wont post any more.


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## Sheffield Tony (2 Apr 2018)

sunnybob":16d87o8d said:


> But that could just be my incompetence...
> 
> yup.sorry, but yup.
> 
> Some fish are hard to kill. Some fish are hard to keep alive. Thats the attraction of fishkeeping.



No apology needed, I know my limits and stick mostly to the easy and cheap fish - mollys, platys (managed to keep them for a couple of generations) guppies etc. Rasbora seem to win for durability- despite not visibly eating anything at all ! Hints on feeding are useful, thanks.


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## sunnybob (2 Apr 2018)

Rasbora's are very social fish, get a dozen or more.add a dozen neon tetras and few cardinal tetras (much dearer than neons, but put together no one notices) for a really showy procession through the long grass.

Theyre middle feeders. look at the mouth, straight ahead.


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## ColeyS1 (2 Apr 2018)

sunnybob":14kc2anw said:


> Really sorry about the quality of these pics, i havent looked at these for over 20 years.
> 
> 
> I wont post any more.


Nothing wrong with the pictures Sunnybob. How big would that one be ? It's introduced me to another world I didn't know existed. 


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## ColeyS1 (2 Apr 2018)

I bought a small piece of bogwood for the algae eater then got a bit lost with how I should introduce it to the tank. A few places recommended leaving it outside in a bucket of water with frequent water changes, the other suggestion was boiling it first. Here I was thinking I should just place it in the tank. 

I tested for ammonia earlier and the closest match was 0.5 




Would it be too soon to add a few more to the tank ? I think you may have suggested guppies ? It's a shame the gourami didn't make it. That was nicely coloured

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## sunnybob (2 Apr 2018)

Theres no guarranteed way to stock a tank. Someone will always tell you they have bucked the system and can keep brackish water fish along with acid water fish.
Honestly, trust no one. 
As you learn, so you want to know more.

The only fish i know you have is a tetra and a molly, Already you you are in trouble. Mollies prefer mildly brackish, tetras are at home in more acidic waters. I would suggest sticking with tetras as they are less hassle and are really at home in a heavily planted tank. 
Bottom feeding catfish for a tetra tank include corydoras (hundreds of types) a placo, but looking ahead, a common 3" pleco will grow to 18" given ideal conditions and a few years. If you want to get a bit adventursome, a synodontis catfish will love hiding underneath your bogwood, but then again, they are nocturnal, so you wont see them often.

Are you starting to see the problems (and joys) of fishkeeping?

As i said, I was given a 6 ft tank as my first, from a long time friend who was a fanatic. he had dozens of tanks back in the 60's. Within a couple years I had five other tanks in the lounge, then I moved to importing and selling from the boys bedroom (he was small enough not to mind sharing with his sister), then onto 15 tanks in my converted garage, and then onto a full blow high street shop with a 150 tropical, marine, and coldwater tanks and outside pond fish holding tanks.. 
It tends to take over.

The royal pleco was a very special fish back then, I think they are more common now, full grown at around 24", 
I'm a bit sad as I thought I had several pics of my shop, but no, they have vanished into cyberspace.
An interesting piece of trivia... uptill the late 70's every London Transport bus garage had a fish tank in the canteen, paid for by the management. It was recognised even then that it was a superb stress reliever.


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## ColeyS1 (2 Apr 2018)

150 tanks !! You must have had a huge selection. Wowsers.
I think I need to stop paying attention to the shops labeling system. I thought community fish meant they would ve happy to go with other community fish but clearly thats not the case. I don't want to end up with anymore tanks than I have now if I can help it. 
I kinda get that they could be good at relieving stress. I find myself watching them a lot whilst trying to concentrate on the t.v.




The mollie seems obsessed with chasing it's reflection when I've got the light on.

So what would be your method of adding the bogwood? Just place it in the tank, or something different ?


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## sunnybob (2 Apr 2018)

Nothing is simple. Youre dealing with a self contained micro climate of only several dozen litres.
Bogwood, if its natural bogwood, will significantly lower the PH of the tank. Most fish will be happy, some wont.

The problem with bogwood is that demand outstrips natural supply, so dealers make their own out of tree stumps soaked in all sorts of stuff including tea. Not to say that will kill fish, but it will affect the water in different ways.

Similarly, avoid any concrete ornaments, they will leach all sorts of chemicals into the tank.
Dont use coral or sea shore wood because the salt content will severely upset the tetras.

I'm being a bit dramatic showing all the bad things, because in a small environment, even small additions can alter the tank water composition so much that fish will start to die.

I would soak all ornaments for a week with frequent water changes before adding to the tank. And still use a Ph and DH test kit the day after installing anything.
Accept you will make mistakes, but as long as you learn from your mistakes, its an amazing hobby.

I once had a customer complaining that her fish just kept dying, no matter what she did. It took quite a while playing detective asking her about her tank house keeping. i finally got to the problem. She was using spray furniture polish to make the whole tank sparkle. The spray polish was going into the tank and killing everything. She took some convincing, but she came back a month later thanking me because she could finally keep her fish alive.

Slowly slowly wins the race.


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## OscarG (4 Apr 2018)

Ha..another aquarium addict here! It is addicitve, has anyone mentioned "MTS" to you yet Coley? Otherwise known as multiple tank syndrome! You get your perfect tank and what happens you'll want another. I was up to 3 at one point. I've still got 2. 

Here's a screeny of my fave guys, a Siamese fighting fish and my beloved cucumber scoffing Pleco. 






I love this fighting fish but he's an absolute wimp! He gets bullied by my tiny cardinal tetras that nibble his tail sometimes. I have to hand feed him, he has a certain spot he swims to in tank and I drop food right in front of his nose, if he has to swim for it, the tetras nick it!

I long for the big 6ft tanks some of you have!


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## sunnybob (4 Apr 2018)

Nice plants.
I love a well planted tank.
I had a 6ft x 30" x 18" wide tank in the shop window. It was heavily planted. To the point where you had to watch a clear spot and wait for some fish to swim across it. That tank bought me in a lot of customers because I had it lit all night. 

The siamese fighter has been bred for hundreds of years to fight its own male rivals. The huge fins slow it down too much for it to be a nuisance to other fish.

How big is the tank?

Good to see cardinals as well, and more than just one!


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## OscarG (4 Apr 2018)

Thank you! I used to have loads more of huge amazon swords but my plec just munches through them. It's a Juwel Rio 180, was originally ample size for the neon tetras and betta I started with. I rescued a plec from a friend when she had enough of her tank. I started feeding this tiny plec bits of cucumber and it grew into a monster pretty quick! I'm a bit worried as he's about 9 - 10" long now and I fear it's becoming cruel to keep him in a tank that just over 3 feet. As I'm in a flat several floors up, I worry it wouldn't be safe to have a bigger tank.

I'm on my third betta, haven't found they live very long. Had this one nearly a year, completely changed his colour in that time.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Apr 2018)

I took a foot long plec off a friend - he was in a four foot tank. He grew another couple of inches before I passed him on - he completely stripped a well planted five foot 400ltr tank.


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## sunnybob (4 Apr 2018)

I had a fishkeeping friend who lived on the 16 th floor. he had many tanks.
The tower block was so warm from all the other flats that he had marines and did not need tank heaters. I've been up there in february with snow on the ground and all the windows open and in a T shirt.
Dont worry about being in a flat.

most plecos grow to well over 2 foot in the wild. Its not uncommon For captives to reach 18"+
With any tank length is always preferable to height to allow fish to actually swim.

In the shop we often had people bring back fish that had outgrown their tanks.
One day a guy come in the shop and asked if we could take a Pacu, that he had bought at 3" long but was now too big.
I said (foolishly) yes.
he came in with this fish that was 12" long and 7" high. I had to scramble to get a 6 ft tank ready for it. Pacu's are vegetarian piranhas, mainly black with silver highlights. We named him " Percy the Pacu"
Percy's party trick was eating grapes whole, and then spitting out the pips. After a few months the novelty for the customers had worn off so i decided he had to move on. Its almost impossible to sell fish that size so I called around and found a garden centre in Wales that had fish and would take him. The only way i could move him was to use a black plastic loft water tank. That damn fish fought like crazy in getting him out the tank. he broke an over head quartz iodine bulb in the process, showering him and me in glass.
We drove almost a 100 miles to this garden centre, only to find they were going to put him in a tank only 1 foot deep that was already overcrowded. I refused.

On the way back we called into Bristol zoo and after i convinced them I didnt want any money, got them to take him. He was put into a huge pool with many others of his kind. we were given a tour of the back rooms of the fish houses. It was a good day.


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## ColeyS1 (1 Jul 2018)

I think I've really slipped up. I added 4 small tetras and 4 guppys to my tank yesterday. I planned on just getting a few more guppys after a couple died but got carried away in the shop. I also didn't do calculations on my tank and just took the shopkeepers advice that I had plenty of room. My 120l tank now has 1 algae eater,7 tetras, 1 clown loach and 8 guppys. 
Would adding some of these help with me adding too many too quickly?




It's like everything I learnt from the beginning went out the window yesterday !

On the plus side I love watching the tank. I'll quite often pause the tv in the evening to see what's going on,before realising 5 minutes have passed.
Cheers
Coley


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jul 2018)

That's why they put them in doctors' and dentists' waiting rooms.  
I can't speak for that stuff having never used it, but your tank isn't overcrowded by a mile. You should really have more than one clown - they like to be in groups.


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## ColeyS1 (1 Jul 2018)

phil.p":1pocvltf said:


> That's why they put them in doctors' and dentists' waiting rooms.
> I can't speak for that stuff having never used it, but your tank isn't overcrowded by a mile. You should really have more than one clown - they like to be in groups.


That's a relief ! I could get another, but thought I'd messed up when you guys suggested it could grow to 12 inchs and be too big for the tank. I don't think it's grown at all in the time I've had it so getting it a pal does seem like the right thing to do. I'll name it Phil lol !
My cold-water tank in the kitchen was 25 degrees the other day. The tropical one rose to 28 !

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## sunnybob (1 Jul 2018)

I'm not familiar with that product, what exactly is it?
I'm not too keen on chemical wonder tablets, but the pet manufacturers LOVE to sell them to you.

Theres no hard and fast rule on numbers of fish, theres just too many variables.
Watch the fish. Are they feeding well? Are they alert and reacting to you putting food in the tank?
are their fins upright? All good signs.
Are the fins down, or ragged? are they not eating well? are there white spots on the bodies or fungus on the fins? All very BAD signs.

Keep checking the water quality. PH and DH are vital to keeping fish alive and well.
keep the filter running 24/7. When you do clean it DO NOT sterilise it, just wash the dirt out and put it back.

Change about a quarter of the water every couple weeks by syphoning out using a gravel cleaner like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5giSLq4mdv0

Make sure the new water is the same temp as the tank, and stir it well as you fill the bucket to help remove chlorine from the tap water.

You can make a superb gravel cleaner from a large plastic pop bottle if you cant find a shop one

The most important rule is to make any changes to the water SLOWLY.


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## ColeyS1 (1 Jul 2018)

This is the side of the box 





I feed them once every two days and they go beserk when the food goes in and eat it quickly. 
I've got the hang of the gravel cleaner and no longer have mouthfuls of dirty tank water to get the siphon going. All the fish look alert and healthy . The clown doesn't really do much. It mainly stays in one place just wiggling away






The guppies dart around all over the place (possibly my 2nd favourite) and the tetras just mooch about slowly.

This one's my real favourite 




Occasionally he'll put on a show, sucking off the front of the tank but doing it real quick all over the place.

Do you think I may have created a problem adding another 8 in one day ?
I'd love to add more fish to the tank,maybe something different if I've got the space. 

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## sunnybob (1 Jul 2018)

always worry about anything that has every other word in bold. Those tablets do EXACTLY what your filter is ALREADY doing. GET my DRIFT?

They might possibly be useful in a brand new tank if you wanted to dump a lot of fish in it the same day.
I would consider every other day food as not enough. If the food is gone in 1 minute flat they are starving. If the food is still around after 5 minutes, that would be too much at any one time.
I used to feed my shop tanks every day, and the show tank fish twice a day. then youll see them grow. But of course, that means more filter washing and water changing.
See what I mean about no hard and fast rule?


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## ColeyS1 (1 Jul 2018)

sunnybob":1jk2p33u said:


> always worry about anything that has every other word in bold. Those tablets do EXACTLY what your filter is ALREADY doing. GET my DRIFT?
> 
> They might possibly be useful in a brand new tank if you wanted to dump a lot of fish in it the same day.
> I would consider every other day food as not enough. If the food is gone in 1 minute flat they are starving. If the food is still around after 5 minutes, that would be too much at any one time.
> ...


Yeah, its not straight forward is it ! It's a lot to take in. I've just been researching and think I've got into a lot of bad habits. Truthfully I only change the water every 4 weeks (take out 35 litres) and I change the filters every five weeks. It has two little plastic trays of charcoal and I change them both. Just reading somewhere and it mentioned about not just taking the old out and putting the new in...? 

I need to learn good habits again. I guess the more fish, the more strict I need to be with my routine. I'll increase it to once a day and see how they got on. Perhaps flakes one day and granules the next. 

I just watched a video on YouTube and a guy with the same size tank had 50 fish and was mentioning getting more ! My tank looks empty in comparison.

Thanks



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## ColeyS1 (1 Jul 2018)

I've just reread all of this to see if stuff had already been mentioned before. A few memorable parts were 150 fish tanks , a fish that ate grapes and spat out the pips, and a longer tank being better than a tall tank so they can swim better. 

I'm wondering if it might be a good choice to get an external filter. Depending on how many more fish I could fit, by the sound of it, it'll be more efficient at keeping the water clean ?

Just fed them earlier and all the food was gone in under 3 minutes. They must have been hungry because food day was tomorrow.


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## Phil Pascoe (1 Jul 2018)

A few corydoras of some sort might be good - you haven't really got any bottom feeders, which help to hoover up bits and pieces. You really need to change charcoal filters if you decide they are necessary as they have only a mechanical effect after so long - sponges, ceramics ect. last indefinitely. As your tank matures you need less testing, fewer additives etc. I haven't kept anything demanding for ages and haven't done a water test in ten years - I doubt I've even still got the test gear. I'm not recommending you do this, just making a point.


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## sunnybob (2 Jul 2018)

I think you need to relax a little (thats what they are for, right?  ) youre just a tad too regimented.
The correct approach is to realise that they are wild animals. Wild animals work on the feast or famine principle. If its there, they will eat it, because tomorrow maybe it wont be there.
So correct feeding is crucial to health.
Study the fish itself. Look at the belly, is it sunken? feed more. Is it extended? feed less (unless its a pregnant female of course). If there is a long string of half digested food trailing from its rear, starve for a day or two untill the belly looks healthy again.
They have a very clever stomach arrangement in that they can eat forever and not explode. Once the belly is full, the food just overflows and goes straight through. That helps them always have a full stomach on the day the food supply stops, to tide them over untill more does arrive.

Regarding overcrowding and filtering, Heres the overview;
You can put so many fish into a tank that they are all touching each other, and they will survive. PROVIDED the water they are in is clean of poisons. 
Think of a large prison totally overcrowded with people as the fish, and the air inside the prison as the water. The people might not be happy crowded together, but as long as fresh air is available they will survive. If you close off the air and make it airtight thats the equivalent of letting the water go foul, and everything dies.

But you dont want them to just survive, you want them to be happy. So you adjust their surroundings to simulate their wild state.
Most fish (cichlids excepted, they are a special sub division) do not like being alone, because theres safety in numbers when a predator comes along. The smaller the fish, the more scared it is, and the more it will try to hide. So tetras, small rasbora's and barb's like to be in shoals and will show off much more.
Larger fish like clown loaches prefer a small amount of friends, but most of their life is spent under objects so not as much visual benefit to you if you buy more.

What I'm trying to get across is that a really good tank is a busy tank with new groups of fish wandering across every so often, but to make that happen you need to be flexible in feeding and stocking levels.
Filtering; (this is turning into a small book here),
Remember the prison analogy? the more prisoners in an enclosed space, the more windows you need to open to allow them to breathe, and the more cess pit emptying you have to do. The more fish you have, the more filtering needs to be done to stop them from being poisoned. You cant see water quality, thats why you have to test regularly at first untill you start to understand the fishes reactions to bad water. An external filter will GREATLY improve water quality. Its up to you to decide if you want that extra quality to allow you to put more fish in, or to give you longer between water changes.
NEVER completely change or wash ALL of the filter media at the same time. The filter is a biological purifier that takes a couple weeks to mature to full efficiency. Washing or replacing everything means your tank has just had all its windows closed ( I'm mixing metaphores, but hey) and your prisoners will start to die of CO2 poisoning.

as far as equipment goes, I'm more than 20 years out of date now, but EHEIM was the best of the filters back then. Hagen were catching up. i dont even know if those firms are still going. but buy big if youre going external.


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## OscarG (2 Jul 2018)

One thing to add, with the current heat wave, might want to keep an eye on the temp. The tank in my lounge got up to 33 deg C the other day. Having to close curtains during day and increase water changes just to try and keep the temp down.


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## ColeyS1 (2 Jul 2018)

You might be right Bob about being a little too regimental with the fish. I just want to do the right thing by them so they live healthyly. With my dog it's easy to know how much to feed him. He has two capfulls and half a pouch of meat and the vet looks him over once a year and I always ask about his weight. With the fish it's different though. For example if it were 1 gram of food per fish that'd be easy to do. I will pay closer attention to how their bellys look now you mentioned it- thanks.

The only thing I never touch is the noodles. I thought by changing both the charcoal filters there would still be enough friendly bacteria in the noodles to not affect it too much. I never do a water and filter change at the same time.

If an external filter reduces the risk and cleans the water quicker, I think I'd be bonkers to not do it. I want to make a cupboard for the tank so would rather do the alterations now so I can allow it in the cupboard design. 

Thanks for helping me with this [WINKING FACE]

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## ColeyS1 (2 Jul 2018)

phil.p":2trxuqik said:


> A few corydoras of some sort might be good - you haven't really got any bottom feeders, which help to hoover up bits and pieces. You really need to change charcoal filters if you decide they are necessary as they have only a mechanical effect after so long - sponges, ceramics ect. last indefinitely. As your tank matures you need less testing, fewer additives etc. I haven't kept anything demanding for ages and haven't done a water test in ten years - I doubt I've even still got the test gear. I'm not recommending you do this, just making a point.


Ok Phil. I'll keep an eye on it this week, perhaps do a waterchange if it needs lowering. I'll see if the fish shop has any corydoras. 
Cheers 

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## ColeyS1 (2 Jul 2018)

OscarG":3np7xmj9 said:


> One thing to add, with the current heat wave, might want to keep an eye on the temp. The tank in my lounge got up to 33 deg C the other day. Having to close curtains during day and increase water changes just to try and keep the temp down.


Yeah I noticed my temp raise to 28. I've tilted the blinds to try and reduce the sun's rays. I struggle with the heat myself and several times thought of getting aircon for the hot summer days- if it'd also help the fish be content .......lol

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## Phil Pascoe (2 Jul 2018)

I always do a water change at the same time as a filter clean out - that's the water I use to rinse everything out. Don't wash anything in tap water. I use a product called Prime by Seachem to condition the new water - it's £30+ per litre, iirc, but it's used in such small amounts a litre would last you years. Obviously you can buy smaller bottles. I used to use a Hagen product which was equally good.


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## sunnybob (2 Jul 2018)

points mentioned'
carbon filter material; it starts off absorbing lots of harmful chemicals, but as Phil says, it eventually gets "full up". You can re-energise" the carbon by laying it out thin on a baking tray and cooking it (or in this heatwave, left out in the sun all day). but thats messy and stinky, so its rare to do it anymore because carbon is quite cheap to replace.

Test kits; again, as both I and Phil said, it becomes less neccessary as your experience grows, but I think its a mistake to never check, even if its just a goldfish, because they can get used to a gradual build up of poisons without showing too many signs.

Filter change; depends entirely on the amount of fish and the amount of food. More fish equals more food equals more maintenance. NEVER clean ALL of it at the same time.
Temperature;
now then, this is a BIGGIE. I hold my hand up and plead guilty to this a long long time ago. All the equipment manufacturers insist you need heaters that keep the temp to within a quarter degree.
Can any of them tell you where there is a wild river or stream that the temp does not fluctuate wildly throughout the year? Of course they cant.
Side break for another true story.
After selling our fish shop for a considerable sum of money, we took a year off work and had a holiday in the Maldives, seeing as how fish had paid for it, we wanted to see them in the wild.
This was in 1989, and to date I have not again spent that much money on a single holiday.
Anyway, seeing all those marines in the wild was an eye opener. We used to walk out in the lagoon and feed them bread rolls (what! no carefully balanced mega expensive vitamins?).

I found a family of clown fish with young on an anemone in only a foot of water, and i used to lay down and watch them with a swimming mask on. the male went potty trying to chase me away (it was at least 2" long). Anyway, thats the background set, heres the punch line.
As I laid there in only just over a foot of water, the tide rose enough for new water to flow over the reef into the lagoon, and it was SO COLD I shivered. Those "super delicate temp. sensitive marine fish" didnt even notice. they just carried on as usual, because that happened twice every day of their lives.
The ONLY reason temperature can cause problems to fish is that when the water temp rises, it becomes less able to hold oxygen, and fish DO need oxygen. If youre in a heat wave, shield the tank from direct sunlight, increase the air bubbles or surface water swirl if you dont have a seperate air pump, and the problem goes away.

Most tropicals are happy between (its been so long I have just had to look up F into C) 23 and 27c but they can withstand wide variances of that for short periods of time provided the change is instant.
As an example, going back to the 70's, nobody could get corydoras catfish to breed in captivity, they were all wild caught. then in the "winter of discontent" when the power was cut again and again due to miners strikes, suddenly hobbyists all over the UK found their corydoras started to breed without any encouragement. It was soon realised that their particular "trigger" was very cold water (20c or even a little less), which happens in the wild in the winter, but everyone had got so caught up in the stable temp idea that those conditions had never been tried.
With discus its the opposite and they like 30c.
The point I'm hammering home again and again is that no one rule fits all tanks.

i think I'm going to have to make this into a book. Hope its helping you.


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## ColeyS1 (3 Jul 2018)

One of the tiny tetras was dead this morning. Did a water test and everything fine- also took a sample to the shop to test. 
Just noticed one of the new guppies floating almost vertically, then suddenly swimming but alternating from the right way up, to then upside down. Is it best to remove it now or should I wait for the inevitable. 
It is helping Bob.

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Edit- I removed it now. It was sinking to the bottom getting stuck in the plants. That's 2 out of the new 8 that have now died......


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## sunnybob (4 Jul 2018)

remove it. from that picture its already dead. You have to accept fish will die. 
If a fish shows any major signs of illness, always remove it to protect the others.
Its up to you to decide whether to just kill it, or set up a small quarantine tank and try to cure it. That would depend on the value of the fish versus the cost of the tank, and also how soft your heart is 8) 
1 or 2 small fish dead once in a while is not a cause for alarm, but any more and any more frequent is, and you need to start investigating.

I cant advise on actual remedies manufacturers because I'm so long out of touch, but tetra was always a good name. i would dose with a broad spectrum bactericide (bacteria will not show up on a normal test kit).
And get a bigger filter. :shock:  =D>


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## ColeyS1 (4 Jul 2018)

It's not the end of the world that a couple died. Here's what I think I learnt yesterday...or its finally sunk in.

Charcoal/carbon filters are useful for a few months on a new tank to help remove toxins or to remove medicine. Once the tank is established it'll look after itself with just noodles and sponge filters getting the occasional rinse in tank water.- Does that sound right ?

The guy down the shop has an external filter. He has two drawers of noodles and the 3rd is full of sponge- course medium and I think he said the white flossy one. All he said he needs to do is do the monthy water change and rinse the sponge in the tank water he's discarding.

I've had the tank for over 3 months now- would that be classed as established now?
If it were I could remove the carbon trays and treat with the medicine. There would be more room for extra noodles so perhaps an external one might not be necessary? 

One thing that might not have helped was I had a power cut on Monday. After a power cut the led light flashs quite quickly between colours (i usually just put it on one colour) it must have been 2.5 hours before I went home for dinner and turned them off.



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## sunnybob (4 Jul 2018)

What? you think the fish had epilepsy from the flashing lights? =D> =D> =D> 
no. :lol: 


From a standing start, I would say the filter is at its peak efficiency after 2 weeks. From there, it goes down slowly as the material becomes clogged and the water flow drops off.

Dont skimp on filters. Dont remove the carbon if your filter is small enough to fit inside the tank. Its like building a hot rod car with a big engine (the fish), but then not wanting spend on brakes (the filters). the two go together. Fish need clean water. End of story.
With an external or multi stage filter, each section needs a different cleaning routine. First stage should be a sponge, to remove all the big stuff. this would need squeezing clean fairly often.
next stage large chunks of ceramic or similar. that wont need any where near the washing of the sponge. only when the container gets so full of crud you cant the stuff any more.
Last stage fine material. rare to clean this, because the other two stages are protecting it from rubbish.

But having said that, if youre stripping a canister type external, its easier to just briefly rinse everything.
RINSE. NOT SCRUB. use water similar temp as the tank, use no additives because then you will kill all the good bacteria you have so long cultivating. each time you take it aprt, spend a bit more time on the next section.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Jul 2018)

I thought the rapid changing of the lights may have stressed them out lol ! I'm so out of my comfort zone with this...can you tell? 

The filter system is built into the lid




I've just removed these two




Which has the charcoal underneath the floss
And added a dose of 




Which is also good for the bacterial infections you mentioned.
All I have in the tank now is the course black sponge and the noodles.

So would you suggest I'd be better off continuing with the carbon trays (after treatment) ? Or just add extra noodles and the white floss stuff. 

Or add an external filter........

My new assassin snail was exploring the tank last night. I bought two but I've only ever seen the one.

Thanks
Coley

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## ColeyS1 (4 Jul 2018)

This is what I'm struggling to understand. If working correctly, should the bacteria in the noodles be doing the cleaning, and the sponge stuff just removing the phsical waste ? Is the carbon just belt and braces worst case scenario or does it just help make the water clear to look at. 

To think all this started cause my niece won a goldfish at the fair and tried having 5 goldfish in a 40 litre tank ! 

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## sunnybob (4 Jul 2018)

Filtration... or to put it in woodworking terms... Sharpening. =D> #-o 

Every body knows they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. So...bearing that in mind, everything from now on is what "I" would do;
I (me, personally) would not do away with the charcoal. I never even removed it while dosing the tank with medicines.
Filtering is basically solids, and bacteria. Remove the solids because that just clogs up the bacterial media. Never thoroughly clean the bacterial media because 99% of that is GOOD bacteria. If you want to really blow your mind, research aerobic and anaerobic bacteria.

I would consider that in tank filter to be the bare minimum. I would add a separate external power filter to work alongside it

My preferred system (back in the day) was an undergravel filter tray, being worked backwards by an external power filter. That way the water is sucked from the middle of the tank, through the power filter mediums and then the clean water pumped down the undergravel tray to come back up through the gravel, thus saving you having to clean the gravel as a separate chore.
The only downside to this system is that plants dont do very well as you are constantly removing the rubbish that their roots use as food. But if plants are your thing, you can make areas with low plastic trays buried in the gravel and plant in those.
Catfish arent affected by this method, because theres still bits on the surface of the gravel for them to nose around in, and it even works in your favour because the pleco's spend more time on the glass instead of hoovering up off the gravel.

I see waterlife are selling medicines. They used to be wholesale fish, not even liking the general public to go in. Dont know if they are still at Harlington by the side of heathrow, but if that new runway is built theyll be looking for a new home.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Jul 2018)

My new assassin snail was exploring the tank last night. I bought two but I've only ever seen the one ...

Hmmm......


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## sunnybob (4 Jul 2018)

Snails are the only things in the world that breed faster than rabbits. because they are hermaphrodites, they dont even need each other.
I always assassinated every snail I ever found in plants, even going so far as to dose all new plant shipments with snail killer. I never once sold a snail, not even to people I didnt like :roll: :roll: 
The giant african snails are not so bad, they dont breed anywhere near as much and you can always find them.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Jul 2018)

I'm reading your replies guys just need a moment to take it in. Just scooped another tiny tetra off the surface- missing it's head. I'm not enjoying this at the moment 

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Fairly sure this one isn't resting also !


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## ColeyS1 (4 Jul 2018)

I've put the carbon back in again now- only had 1 bacterial infection treatment. I did a part water change on the 29th of June. 
I wonder if this new addition to my wrist came into contact with the water.




Just seems odd that it's only the new ones that are dying.


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Jul 2018)

I daresay your water has come into contact with copper ................................................on its way to the tank through copper mains.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Jul 2018)

phil.p":16pc0dpa said:


> I daresay your water has come into contact with copper ................................................on its way to the tank through copper mains.


Lol ha ha, oh balls !!!!! What a wally !!! 

I've another thought. When I bought the fish I floated them on the top of the tank to get the temperature the same....then I just tipped them in. The sudden change in water condition may have shocked them.

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## sunnybob (4 Jul 2018)

copper is no problem. head missing shows something is hungry. 
List ALL your fish and see if we can find the culprit.

Its always a big deal buying new fish. With all your new found knowledge, next time you go to buy study everything in the tank. If any of the fish are falling over, walk away.
If any have rotted fins or tiny white spots on the their body, walk away.
If there are dead fish in the tank on more than one occasion, find another dealer.

when the hobby really gets to you, you start a quarantine tank for new arrivals and keep them in there for a week before introducing them into your tank. (and you thought woodworking was complicated) :roll: :roll: #-o

you are almost there with the floating bag for new fish, but did you turn the tank lights off? Or did you stress them out completely by forcing them to stay right underneath?

Open the bag while its in the tank (with the tank lights off). Roll the top of the bag over so the bag floats by itself. over 5 minutes or so, splash some of your tank water into the bag to reduce chemical shock.
Once you think the water and temps are close enough, DO NOT tip the shops water into your tank. you have no idea what they put in their water. Use a small net and lift the fish into your tank, then carefully lift out the bag and dump all that water down the bog.


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## ColeyS1 (4 Jul 2018)

Your last paragraph is the bit I didn't do Bob. I'll know next time,thankyou.The lights were off. I only turn them on in the evening when I'm in the room.

All I have now is -
5 tetras (2 tiny ones)
Clown loach 
2 snails
Algae eater/bristlenose
5 or 6 guppies

It's 130litre tank.The rate it's going I'm gonna need to buy another 8 next weekend .


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## Phil Pascoe (4 Jul 2018)

If your tank is planted you'd do better to leave the lighting on for a lot longer - the easiest way is to put them on a cheap timer.


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## sunnybob (5 Jul 2018)

nothing in there that would bite a head off a guppy. I expect the catfish just sucked at it a lot.

Thats not many fish, make sure you keep an eye on the amount you feed each time.


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## ColeyS1 (5 Jul 2018)

phil.p":32l6j85n said:


> If your tank is planted you'd do better to leave the lighting on for a lot longer - the easiest way is to put them on a cheap timer.


Would any kind of light work? The only reason I ask is because I changed a blue one the previous guy had fitted, to an led one that you could choose the colour. It's certainly more pleasing to look at now. The leaves on the small plants are green, but I wouldn't say they're thriving. I've 3 moss balls in there which don't look any different from the day I brought them back from the shop.

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## ColeyS1 (5 Jul 2018)

sunnybob":1hjfyeuw said:


> nothing in there that would bite a head off a guppy. I expect the catfish just sucked at it a lot.
> 
> Thats not many fish, make sure you keep an eye on the amount you feed each time.


I went back to the shop today expecting to see the tank full of guppies I had previously bought a few days before. There was only 3 left compared with the 40+ from before. I looked around the tanks and decided against the tank that had a dead one in it. Instead I asked if they had any that had been there for a while.
I've got 4 more guppies now that I've been floating in the bag. I've added several small amounts of tank water over the last hour and reckon I'm about ready to transfer them into the tank with the net as per your advice. Let's see how these get on !

Cheers
Coley 
For got to mention, it was the bristlenose that helped convince me I was overfeeding. The food would be eaten quick it's just the bristlenose always had long lines of pooh hanging from it. He must have foraged under every nook and cranny, where as the other fish just ate the stuff that was readily available. If it's only that one that's stuffing it face I'm guessing that won't be much of a problem? 
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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jul 2018)

Grolux used to be the choice for growing plants, but there may be better around now - the last few tanks I've had have been unplanted. If you wonder whether you've over fed them - yes, you probably have. They don't eat much. You'll probably end up putting something in there that eats guppies - they're not called millionfish for nothing.  In tropical climates they put them in ditches to control mosquito larvae.


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## sunnybob (5 Jul 2018)

youre slowly learning. the shop lost the guppies through either bad practice or a disease. thats one strike against him if he didnt offer to replace your losses. Trade price on a guppy is a couple of pennies each, nothing compared to good will of a regular customer.

Always check the entire tank before buying anything from it. One sickly fish and you walk on. Its worth asking what his filtration is. Most now are central filters, which saves money for them, but if they get cheapskate and dont dose the water regularly, the bad stuff goes through every tank in the place. i wouldnt do that system. every tank had its own undergravel filter plate. That meant more maintenance, but I had a very high reputation of fish survival, its why I made so much money at it (never did beat my annual income in 1988).

Coley... plants.... weve done 8 pages on fish so far =D> =D> 

you have to get your head around the fact you have a miniature world. the principles are the same as the real world. Plants need a days worth of strong light to flourish, and remember, these are TROPICAL plants, that get very strong light 12 hours a day filled with all those lurverly vitamins. not just 3 hours of a coloured led every evening.
Dont buy moss, its like snails. Once it takes hold you cant get rid of the damn stuff.
I used 3 full length flourescents on a planted tank.
Grolux to make them look good and encourage growth, north light to make the grolux not look like a dim cave, and warm white to round it all out. Grolux stop being useful after 6 months or so because the coating inside the tube wears out. That becomes expensive, but how much does a gardener spend on making their plants flourish? 
I really cant give modern alternatives, maybe they are still available.

We used to sell plants in small plastic ventilated pots filled with rockwool. That allowed the plants to collect their own little bacteria system.
bet youre wishing you never started this relaxing hobby arent you?    #-o #-o


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## ColeyS1 (5 Jul 2018)

The shop keeper wouldnt take any money for the 4 i picked up today and was keen to figure out why they had died. The only thing that looked odd on all the water tests was the water hardness. It was 180- the highest it could read.




As daft as it sounds I could quite happily live with an unplanted tank. I only really put them in there cause i thought it would be better for the fish.

The thing that's so frustrating is there really isn't one way to do something. It's 101 ways with everyone having a slightly different method. I'm paranoid about the entire tank now tbh. I've just taken a few pints of water out so the filtered water makes more of a splash when it re-enters- there certainly seems to be bigger and more bubbles ! Could that have been a cause of the new 4 dying? Lack of oxygen? 

Without your guys support and input I don't think I'd have got past the initial tank crack !!!

Cheers
Coley


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## ColeyS1 (5 Jul 2018)

phil.p":33z00fke said:


> Grolux used to be the choice for growing plants, but there may be better around now - the last few tanks I've had have been unplanted. If you wonder whether you've over fed them - yes, you probably have. They don't eat much. You'll probably end up putting something in there that eats guppies - they're not called millionfish for nothing.  In tropical climates they put them in ditches to control mosquito larvae.


That's my other option, just fill the tank with more guppies and hope the strong survive lol !! I'll research the lights more after this fiasco. I'm thinking my £15 Chinese jobby might look pretty but probably the 2 bright white tubes that came fitted in the tank would be a better choice during the day. Thanks Phil [WINKING FACE]

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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jul 2018)

Have you any seashells in the tank?


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## sunnybob (5 Jul 2018)

ok, remove the black mark against him.
Stupidly hard water? 
have you put a concrete ornament in there? or a coral reef?


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## ColeyS1 (5 Jul 2018)

No seashells or concrete ornaments. Bob the water hardness was the maximum the test kit could measure 180. 
Just came back from walking the dog and the amount of bubbles now are wildly different then before I lowered the water level.




The bubbles on the surface are between 10-20mm diameter, before they were perhaps 5 mm maximum. The other thing I've noticed are the bubbles are reaching as far as halfway down the tank.




Before I lowered the water they were 2 inches deep at most. 
Here's the new tank level 




I've only ever assumed that I should fill the tank right up ...........?

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## Phil Pascoe (5 Jul 2018)

I would think there's something adrift with your water quality if bubbles are holding on the surface like that.


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## sunnybob (6 Jul 2018)

The bubbles might just be the result of a quick camera setting, or even local water quality.
You have pretty soft water down in cornwall Phil, not sure where coley is. London for example has water fed from 5 seperate areas, all with their own chemical make up. Bath has the scummiest water I have ever seen. kettles go pure chalk white after a single use. In Taunton my kettle still looked brand new after several years.

Coley, I think you can afford to raise the water a bit. You dont need niagara falls, just to keep the surface moving around. If when you get the water level where you want it, and you still have that very annoying bright white line at the top, its no big deal to add a strip of 1" wide black pvc tape to make a sun visor.you dont need to see the surface.
As far as hardness goes, Heres todays reading for you

http://www.tropical-fish-success.com/aq ... dness.html


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## ColeyS1 (6 Jul 2018)

phil.p":1lnv7dof said:


> I would think there's something adrift with your water quality if bubbles are holding on the surface like that.


As soon as they form they immediately burst Phil. Perhaps it's the few drops of bubble bath I add to make the water smell nice lol. I'll be honest and say I did open the window this morning to let in some new fresh oxygen [WHITE SMILING FACE]

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## ColeyS1 (6 Jul 2018)

Ok Bob. Going by that link you posted the water is slightly hard so not as bad as I first thought. I think for my own sanity I'll put it down to not acclimatising them properly to the tank water. All seems well this morning so hopefully that's it for them dying. 

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## ColeyS1 (6 Jul 2018)

FFS !!!!





This was one of yesterday's. Less than 24 hrs. Could it be one of the other fish is harassing it ? It had a lovely wispy tail, but when I just saw it struggling (before sinking lifeless to the bottom) it was all ragged and looked hacked into. Fin rot would be much slower....surely ? 
The body also looks like it has tiny red spots on it where a fish may have been pecking at it ?

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## sunnybob (6 Jul 2018)

Every body loves a guppy.
When i turned my hobby into a business and opened a high street shop, I swore I would not sell guppies because they were such a pain.
After the third person left my shop and went down the road to buy the guppies he wanted, I learnt a serious business lesson. *The customer is always right, no matter how wrong he is*.
I stocked and sold thousands of them from then on.
Never liked them, never kept them at home.

They are best kept on their own, in very slightly brackish water, and they will go forth and multiply in prodigious quantities. In a "community" tank, those flappy fins are just too hard to resist for most fish.

We come back to "the real world" scenario. In the real world, guppies are so brightly coloured because they live in drainage ditches that are pea soup thick. Even with all those colours they happen upon each other almost by accident.
In a clear water aquarium, its like having a "come eat me" sign on their tails.


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## ColeyS1 (6 Jul 2018)

sunnybob":3otg9ly8 said:


> Every body loves a guppy.
> When i turned my hobby into a business and opened a high street shop, I swore I would not sell guppies because they were such a pain.
> After the third person left my shop and went down the road to buy the guppies he wanted, I learnt a serious business lesson. *The customer is always right, no matter how wrong he is*.
> I stocked and sold thousands of them from then on.
> ...


Yeah it might look appetising if you were hungry. Another guppy from yesterday is staying fairly still at the surface, I don't give it much hope tbh. It Doesn't look like it's gasping though. I've just watched the clown loach tailing one of the bigger tetras. It was literally on its fin for a couple minutes following it around the tank. Could that one possibly be the culprit ? I'm feeding them once a day now so they shouldn't be as hungry.

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## sunnybob (6 Jul 2018)

ok, so the clown is eating from the other fish. Thats unusual, but theres a reason.

We now move onto where in the tank different fish feed.
You have top, middle, and bottom feeders. you can tell where any fish feeds just by looking at its mouth.
Top feeders have sticky out bottom lips. middle have straight ahead, and bottom have downward facing mouths.

you need to place food in the tank according to what fish you have. If you put in floating flake, and its all gone in a couple of minutes, the middle feeders wont get much and the bottom feeders wont get any. Loaches and catfish are bottom feeders. you can buy floating flake and pellets, and sinking pellets.

Get some food down to the loach and he will stop eating the guppies. Even pleco's, which are sold as algae eaters, will eat other food laying on the bottom. Especially if you have an ultra clean glass tank. But you still dont want uneaten food laying on the bottom for very long.

If I had a lot of bottom feeders in a tank (I was very into catfish) i would feed just before i put the lights out at night, so the catfish could forage while the top and middle feeders were dozing. If food was still there in the morning, next day was famine day.


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## ColeyS1 (7 Jul 2018)

Ok Bob. I'm using sinking granules. Which I was thinking cater for most as some float, linger halfway and other sink quickly to the bottom.
I'm getting pretty good at spotting poorly ones now lol.




That's two replacements from the same tank dead within 2 days. They linger near the top of the water staying fairly still, before popping their clogs the following day. Could that suggest an oxygen problem ? It's the only thing i can think of that i haven't tested. 
That's 10 fish since Saturday with only 4 surviving.... so far. I guess this is part of fish keeping,trying to problem solve tank issues. I'm gonna go start a sharpening thread ! Ha ha

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## sunnybob (7 Jul 2018)

Sharpening has NOTHING on fishkeeping for complexity, trust me. :roll: 

Those guppies were a bad batch. end of story. You know the shopkeeper lost them. It happens. But he should have fish in quarantine for at least a couple days before selling them on.

When you put a dozen different species in the same tank as "community" fish, you dont realise that those fish may have come from three different continents originally with completely different water chemical composition,
A good community tank is a recommendation for the owner, its hard, not easy to keep all those diverse things survivable for every one of them.

PH, DH, KH, and all the other aitches all need to be aligned.
Maybe you could try a single species tank?
I would start you off with a dozen neon tetras, a few cardinal tetras, and some small rasboras. then you could grow wonderful plants.
Or maybe a breeding pair of firemouth cichlids, and watch them destroy every piece of plant you have, dig the pits all over the tank, and then watch the eggs develop into young and grow up.
8) 8)


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## ColeyS1 (12 Oct 2019)

Apologies for dragging this back up but I thought I should update. I received a heck of a lot of advice via pm and tried to take it all in. A few things that stand out were get a small tank and learn to deal with the deaths or get a big tank and watch everything flourish (that's how I interpreted it anyway lol ) my big tank has been so so much easier than the 2 previous ones ! I've added some plants and it kind of sorts itself out. A big thing I took from one of the messages was look at the tanks you're buying from and go from there. I went to potentially add a few more to my collection and saw this in the tanks












I'd been their before and put 2 and 2 together and started to think I had better success buying elsewhere. This place had a fish dead in the tank for 2.5 weeks before it got taken out. I just dont think their tanks are healthy and looked after. 
I've been putting off sorting out the external filter pipes for months and finally got around to doing it today. The tank is no way an award winner but for the time being I'm happy with how its going.




Thanks guys!

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## sunnybob (13 Oct 2019)

A big step forwards on the learning curve. =D> 
Any shop that leaves dead fish in the tanks should be avoided. But fish do die, even on the best of us :roll: . I used to check every tank before opening the doors (all 150 of them) and also all through the day.
Now you should start looking at ALL the fish in the tank before you buy. Are there any swimming badly? are the whole tank of fish at the top of the water gasping? do they have fins clamped to their bodies, or covered in white spots?

Theyre all in the the same water, so anything one of them is showing symptoms of, they all have.

Small tanks can work, but they are much, much harder than large tanks to look after.


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## Phil Pascoe (13 Oct 2019)

You do know that the slate is likely to make your water alkaline?


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## ColeyS1 (13 Oct 2019)

phil.p":3m5i1jci said:


> You do know that the slate is likely to make your water alkaline?


Didn't cross my mind tbh Phil. I saw loads of slate aquarium structures for sale on ebay and thought I could make something to suit the size of the tank. I'll have to look into it......immediately!- I just managed to find my 5in1 test strips and ph at the moment is 6. The fish seem to be doing really well and it's been in there possibly 4 months. I've only had 1 fish kick the bucket since then. 

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## ColeyS1 (13 Oct 2019)

Balls, I just googled the ideal ph.....

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## ColeyS1 (13 Oct 2019)

So if I tested the other goldfish tank, that'd show how much lower it is ?

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## sunnybob (13 Oct 2019)

with a ph of 6, add more slate :shock: =D> 

But again, different fish require different PH numbers.
Small tetras, barbs etc, are happy when the number is above 6.5 right up to 7.5.
African cichlids are happy with 8 .5 and maybe even slightly higher.
You MUST do regular pH checks, and another worthwhile one is DH (hardness) although not as important as PH.


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## ColeyS1 (13 Oct 2019)

sunnybob":1vsp5b46 said:


> with a ph of 6, add more slate :shock: =D>
> 
> But again, different fish require different PH numbers.
> Small tetras, barbs etc, are happy when the number is above 6.5 right up to 7.5.
> ...



I'll look into adding some chemicals so the ph is nearer to what's needed. Because I had only one death I assumed the tank must be doing ok- the fish look and seem healthy enough. It's mainly the nitrate levels I've kept an eye on in the past. I know for certain that I've got hard water so would this also be something that needs tweaking? 

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## sunnybob (13 Oct 2019)

Whatever you do, do it slowly. Sudden water quality changes are fastest way to kill a fish.

Hard water is good, Ph will always go to acid because of the plant growth and the fishes urine (yup, fish pee too :shock: :shock: :roll: ) Thats why you do regular partial water changes.

south american fish especially are happy in low ph, Discus fish wont survive without it. 
Research the fish you want to keep, and adjust the water accordingly. You youngsters have it so easy; before the internet it took me years to learn all this stuff (hammer) (hammer)


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## ColeyS1 (15 Oct 2019)

I picked this up yesterday 




And have ordered




I had no idea that such a small difference in numbers from 6-7 had that much effect on the acidity of the water- my fish must be swimming in a acid bath ! I think the liquid test kit should be more accurate than the current 5 in 1 test strips I use. 
Hopefully delivery will be fairly quick.
Bob I'll take note of adjusting the ph slowly.
Thanks

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## Phil Pascoe (15 Oct 2019)

Yes. The PH scale is logarithmic. As Bob said, they all drift to acid over a time, so if you keep acid water loving fish it gets easier, but if you keep alkaline loving ones it needs keeping in check. If you want your water more alkaline research keeping Malawis (not that you necessarily want it that alkaline) and you'll find natural additives (sands, rocks, shells etc.) that are probably slower acting and safer than changing everything too quickly. Once settled large tanks need next to no dosing with anything.


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## ColeyS1 (15 Oct 2019)

phil.p":2pypyojc said:


> Once settled large tanks need next to no dosing with anything.


Even after water changes Phil ? I was thinking I'll probably be needing to add a few drops of the ph solution after every water change ?

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## Phil Pascoe (15 Oct 2019)

Yes, on a water change, but it shouldn't take much unless your mains water is too far one way or the other.


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## sunnybob (15 Oct 2019)

water testing will now be a regular occurrance, yes? =D> 

PH is a very old testing scale, invented back when equipment was so much more basic than now and it was never intended to be used for kishkeeping, but its that we have. 
Possibly a swimming pool test kit will be easier for you to use
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydroponics- ... db0dd73c35

Obviously you wont be dosing chlorine, but the little tube is very easy to see and judge by.

Plants and pretty fish are happier around 6.5 to 7 because they mostly come from heavily planted rivers and streams. African plant destroyers (better known as rift valley or malawi cichlids :roll: ) require 8 plus a bit because their habitat is mainly rock and slate lakes.


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## ColeyS1 (17 Oct 2019)

I will be paying more attention to the ph now Bob.
One of the kits arrived this morning 





The photos a bit misleading but it a closest colour match to 6.6ph.
I also found a chinese book of ph strips I bought a while back and that shows 7




Do you still think it's worth altering the ph ? 

One more question is my nieces 2 goldfish seem to be doing really well. I feed them once a day. They seem really interactive and are always up at the glass wiggling and following each other around. I tried feeding them twice a day but they still come up to the glass when they seem me walk into the room. Are they just more interactive than small tropical fish ?- They cant be hungry. 




Am I right in thinking that a forever tank for them would be better being longer and not as high ? My tropical tank is just over 3ft long,2ft high and 18 inches deep. I thought about getting the same tank for the two goldfish. That size would definitely be preferable to a 5ft long thing. Waddya reckon ? 
I'll take in what everyone's said then stop asking so many questions lol.
Thanks guys.



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## sunnybob (17 Oct 2019)

Back when I had my shop, a little old lady came in and asked me to go to her house because she wanted to give me her goldfish as it was too big for her.
So I went, and there was a goldfish bowl sitting on the kitchen table, and the gold fish was about a half inch shorter than the diameter of the bowl!

She had won it as a tiddler at the fair, and been told it would only grow to the size of the bowl. DUH! 
A goldfish can grow to around a foot long quite easily.

Your fish look in good health and you describe exactly what fish should be doing, active, alert, and in your case, possibly mating :shock: or 2 males fighting for superiority as and when a female arrives.

Overfeeding wont hurt the fish, because they cant be overfed due to them having a clever stomach that shuts off when its full and diverts everything to the "ahem, rear end"  .
If you see long strings of gunk hanging from the back of the fish, thats too much food. Overfeeding WILL pollute the tank very quickly.
If they eat what you put in within a few seconds, add more. If they wander away from the food after a minute or two while some is still there, feed less.

PH colour strips have some leeway because apart from printing error and fading, even every bodys eyes see colours slightly differently. As long as you are no more than one colour band away, I suggest watching the fishes behaviour before making any adjustments. 
If they are alert with all fins erect and actively eating food, youre pretty damn near. If the fins fold down, and they start to swim at an angle and stay at the surface, you have a problem.


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## OscarG (21 Oct 2019)

Hey Bob

Can I chip in and ask you a fishy question?!

You ever kept cherry barbs?

I recently bought 4 (2 males, 2 females...shop insisted they're sold in pairs) to go in a 60 litre with a tiny clown plec and a betta. Started off fine then the larger male started relentlessly chasing the smaller fella, to the point where the smaller one would spend hours hiding behind filter. After searching online, everyone suggested more females, that they need to outnumber the males for harmony. I went back to shop, they wouldn't sell me all girls, had to settle for 1 male, 3 females. So far after 10 days or so, with 3 males and 5 females, all seems well.

Do you think it's bit rubbish the shop didn't advise me to get more girls to start with?


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## Phil Pascoe (21 Oct 2019)

Many fish shoal in nature and exhibit different behaviourwhen you've only a couple - if your dominant male had another couple of dozen fish to harass there wouldn't be a problem.


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## sunnybob (21 Oct 2019)

I think we have a couple seperate issues going on here.

First, to only sell any barbs as a pair is nonsense. Unlike many cichlids, they are NOT monagamous, they breed with whatever female is available and scatter eggs with no parental care, so the shop keeper isnt playing fair with you.
Whether thats a marketing strategy or ignorance, I cant say.

In the wild, any group of animals will always see fights between males, thats genetic selection at work (only the strongest breed). So you will ALWAYS get males chasing other males off. 20 females to a couple males will allow relative harmony( a good example of this is a herd of deer. there will always be one dominant male)

But heres the other question I need to ask, is there enough food for them all? 
When you feed, there should be enough food to last for at least 2 minutes. if the tank boils with movement when you feed, and its gone in 30 seconds, FEED MORE.
If food is scarce, males will fight for what is there (even females if it comes to starvation levels.

Time and time again, I had to explain this concept to newbie fishkeepers.
*YOU CAN NOT OVER FEED A FISH!*

Having made that plain, you CAN overfeed the tank. Food floating around after the 2 minutes, long trails floating from the fish, stinking water, layers of rotten food on the bottom, all scream too much food.
This is why a large tank is easier to maintain than a small tank, purely because a small tank can go from OK to dying in a day, but a large capacity tank will go bad gradually over several days and give you fair warning.


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## ColeyS1 (26 Nov 2019)

Last night I found out my external filter had been leaking water- nearly 1 litre a week. I've now order a replacement o ring and have the filter stood in a plastic container to catch the water in the meantime. I think I might leave the filter in the container anyway just as a precaution. Is there some kind of switch available that could shut off the water supply should the container fill up or begin leaking at a faster rate ? 


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## sunnybob (26 Nov 2019)

You could buy a small magnetic float switch that would operate a solenoid valve to close off the filter, but this very quickly becomes a nightmare, as you would also need it to shut off the electric to the filter or that would overheat, and operate a warning light and buzzer so the filter isnt off for days without you noticing. If in the tank it could also cause nuisance tripping every time a bigger fish set up a swell wave, or you put your hand in the tank and then made a wave as you withdrew it.
If in the lower container it might work better but you would still have wiring everywhere!
It wouldnt hurt to leave the filter in a white plastic tub so that any leaks could be easily seen at a glance, but this is one of those learning curve moments where now you know it happens you will always be on the lookout for warning signs.
Make sure you dont have any unneccesary joins in the hoses, make sure all joints are tightened with clips, and just practice regular checks.


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## ColeyS1 (26 Nov 2019)

I think the best way would be for it to cut the power to the pump if possible Bob. Its filling the container rather quickly, I really should have noticed it before. The tank would survive being turned off for 10 hours and would save 200 litres being emptied onto the floor in a worse case scenario. A floaty switch sounds like the safest bet.

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## Stigmorgan (26 Nov 2019)

ColeyS1":29yomdco said:


> I think the best way would be for it to cut the power to the pump if possible Bob. Its filling the container rather quickly, I really should have noticed it before. The tank would survive being turned off for 10 hours and would save 200 litres being emptied onto the floor in a worse case scenario. A floaty switch sounds like the safest bet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk



Just bear in mind that whilst your tank may survive hours without a filter, your beneficial bacteria in the filter will start dying off rapidly after a couple of hours without water circulating through the media.


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## ColeyS1 (26 Nov 2019)

Stigmorgan":3k7wxn43 said:


> ColeyS1":3k7wxn43 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the best way would be for it to cut the power to the pump if possible Bob. Its filling the container rather quickly, I really should have noticed it before. The tank would survive being turned off for 10 hours and would save 200 litres being emptied onto the floor in a worse case scenario. A floaty switch sounds like the safest bet.
> ...


Well that's that idea out the window then lol

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## sunnybob (26 Nov 2019)

I replied to this hours ago but it has disappeared.
Theres no easy way to do what you want.
Replace the damaged O ring. Place a white plastic container under the filter to show you if there are any future leaks. I suspect the O ring failed through your inexperience of using the fitting. They normally last for many years.


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## Stigmorgan (26 Nov 2019)

Agreed, the only time I've ever had a seal break is after the filter had been put away for a while and the rubber had dried up and cracked/split. Had the same issue with a couple of air pumps bursting their diaphrams for the same reasons.


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## sunnybob (27 Nov 2019)

Air pump diaphragms can break if you leave the thing running wide open. Just like a car engine revving flat out with no load will blow up.
Slightly restrict the airflow to reduce excessive bounce, even if that means a bigger or doubled up pump to achieve desired flow.


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## ColeyS1 (27 Nov 2019)

The whole setup was second hand so I dont know how it was looked after before. One thing that is mentioned is greasing any o rings to stop them drying out. That's what I'm struggling to find at the moment. I can find food grade grease by the bucket load but am unsure if it would hurt the fish so keep thinking about it. I can keep emptying the container for the time being. The replacement o ring is part of a complete service kit so I want to make sure I do it properly. 
I have never had so many things go wrong in the space of a week lol.


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## sunnybob (27 Nov 2019)

Theres no need for special lubricant on an O ring. Its neoprene which is resistant to just about everything except physical damage and sunlight. just wet it with the aquarium water when you assemble it. If possible, twist the fittings together to save a straight downwards force which sometimes distorts the O ring out of its groove.
If you are REALLY concerned, food grade silicone grease is fine, but just use the slightest smear or the silicone could gloop up the pump impeller


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## ColeyS1 (27 Nov 2019)

Ok Bob. I'll try the new o ring with just tank water and if that doesn't work I'll order some food grade grease to try. Ssearching online suggests a lot of people have had the same leak with fluval 406's. Some have got so fed up they have switched brands. 

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## sunnybob (27 Nov 2019)

Bearing in mind my retail experience is now 30 years ago, but I remember when Fluval was invented. I did stock them because they were cheaper than Ehiem and some people either would not or could not buy the better one. I got a lot more Fluval returns than Eheim. 

Is this disconnect fitted to the filter, or just inline? Inline valves can be swapped quite easily.


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## ColeyS1 (27 Nov 2019)

Its leaking where the top part joins to the bottom






Picture borrowed from the web-




It's got an o ring that goes around the perimeter (circled in red) 

When people get fed up I think alot move over to eheim. 



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## ColeyS1 (27 Nov 2019)

It's all fun and games





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## Stigmorgan (27 Nov 2019)

That sucks dude, what happened? I have to say that filter is the Tesco blue band equivalent for fluval, I've always used tetra brand for my filters, I've had an ex700 for over 10 years without an issue other than breaking a part when trying to replace a hose.


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## sunnybob (27 Nov 2019)

Fluval have certainly changed shape over the last 30 years.
I can be positive you crimped the O ring last time you replaced it. A bit of care with the new one and youre very unlikely to have a repeat leak.


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## ColeyS1 (27 Nov 2019)

Stigmorgan":3rlmu12g said:


> That sucks dude, what happened? I have to say that filter is the Tesco blue band equivalent for fluval, I've always used tetra brand for my filters, I've had an ex700 for over 10 years without an issue other than breaking a part when trying to replace a hose.


Does that mean fluval are a budget type brand ? I'll research some tetra filters for the when the day comes to definitely replace this one. 

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## ColeyS1 (27 Nov 2019)

sunnybob":2iqb3ao7 said:


> Fluval have certainly changed shape over the last 30 years.
> I can be positive you crimped the O ring last time you replaced it. A bit of care with the new one and youre very unlikely to have a repeat leak.


I may have done Bob. I added some more media to it a while ago because when I bought it (secondhand) half the baskets were empty. Theres also alot of discussion that the toggle clamp which pulls the top down isn't up to the task. 

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## sunnybob (27 Nov 2019)

If you can find an engineering supplies shop, take the old gasket along to them and get another one same size but slightly thicker.
Those toggle clamps are ok, but they rely totally on the manufacturing tolerances of the O ring to work.

A half mil thicker O ring will need more force to clip down and ensure no leaks.
Fluval always was budget back in the day, sounds like they still have the same marketing strategy


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## Stigmorgan (27 Nov 2019)

ColeyS1":38pvdgvo said:


> Stigmorgan":38pvdgvo said:
> 
> 
> > That sucks dude, what happened? I have to say that filter is the Tesco blue band equivalent for fluval, I've always used tetra brand for my filters, I've had an ex700 for over 10 years without an issue other than breaking a part when trying to replace a hose.
> ...



Not entirely, I have never had a problem with their aquariums but their equipment is usually either really good (expensive) or really bad. I am currently using the Fluval Plant 3.0 lights and think they are fantastic, build quality is great, some of their pumps and filters do seem to be very cheaply made in my opinion.


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## ColeyS1 (27 Nov 2019)

Some people have had success wrapping ptfe tape around the o ring to increase diameter.

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## sunnybob (27 Nov 2019)

PTFE tape is a hit or miss get you out of a bind trick.
as you wrap it there will parts that have three layers and parts that have 1 layer. Dont do it unless it leaks at tea time on a saturday and you cant get another one till monday.
Silicone grease is a much better bodge. :roll: :roll:


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## ColeyS1 (29 Nov 2019)

The new service kit arrived but I'm yet to fit it. The leak seems to have completely stopped for now. I've just added 5 new fish so I wont be watching much tv tonight lol. It's only now some new fish have been added I've noticed how much activity is going on in the tank. I added my most expensive fish to date £9. I really enjoy this hobby !

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## Stigmorgan (30 Nov 2019)

It's proven to improve mental health and wellbeing because of the relaxing effect an aquarium can have.


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## sunnybob (30 Nov 2019)

From the very early '60. All London Transport bus garages had tanks in their canteens as it was known to help the drivers relax.
I went into my first tropical fish shop in 1963. There wasnt a lot equipment available back then.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Nov 2019)

They used to be very common in doctors' and dentists' waiting rooms as well - they're a great time waster.


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## sunnybob (30 Nov 2019)

When I had the shop I maintained several dentists tanks, it was a good income. but never saw one in a doctors


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## ColeyS1 (30 Nov 2019)

I added 4 small gourami's I've seen 1 after staring at the tank for ages but wonder if the others have been sucked up in the filter or worse still eating by other fish. I've never had much success with them but I've always bought them when they were much bigger. I'm hoping having them smaller might change things, and they were cheaper to buy lol.

Is there any reason I couldn't use unscented baby wet wipes to clean the outside of the tank ? I'm paranoid about doing anything to the outside glass incase I make things worse by smearing the water marks around.

Anything that plays on my mind alot is cichlids. I know you can get the dwarf ones but how do people manage the bigger ones once they grow big. Is it just accepted that they keep as large a tank as possible until the day comes when they out grow their tank and need to be rehomed. 

I need more tanks ! I quite like the idea of keeping a small turtle, but I think they need a 250 watt lamp on constantly which might send the electric meter dolally.

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## Phil Pascoe (30 Nov 2019)

Jewels, convicts, firemouths etc. don't grow too big and breed easily, but you won't keep much else with them. Dwarfs are less aggresive.


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## sunnybob (30 Nov 2019)

You can divide all fish into three categories of where they stay in the tank.
Top, middle, and bottom. you can work that out on any fish even if you havent seen one before.
Just check their mouths. E.G.; Gouramis mouths point up, barbs mouths are central, and ALMOST all cichlids and all catfish point down.
from that, you can work out what fish will live in the same tank. Overpopulate one area and you get competition and fighting.
If your filter pipe is large enough to swallow a gourami, change the fliter pipe end.

Small cichlids will cope well in most tanks. What used to called apistogramma ramirizi are very nice fish. I'm pretty sure they got reclassified but you should find them as "RAM" cichlids. There are more types of dwarf american cichlids about nowadays, but I have no experience of them. I've bred ram cichlids, as well as the much easier firemouths, and the family friends known as oscars =D> . But firemouths tend to mess the tank bottom up so plants become difficult. Oscars destroy EVERYTHING when they decide to breed

Another help is that cichlids come from 2 main places, south america, and africa. Mixing them is bad news, apart from the fact their water requirements are quite different .

"I need more tanks" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Oh dear, youre hooked (pun intended).
My 1 became 2 and then 5 and then 15 and then a shop full of 150. Theres no turning back.

Now then, TURTLES...... They are amusing, but actually quite dangerous. They are incredibly messy eaters, and they all carry salmonella and many other bacterial diseases. If you have small children likely to touch them when unsupervised DO NOT BUY. If you touch them at any time (including water changes) you must wash your hands well immediately.
They will eat small fish. As they get bigger, they can easily bite an unwary handler, and that should be a hospital visit.


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## Phil Pascoe (30 Nov 2019)

I chose cichlids of one sort or another as they are the most interesting to watch - they guard their eggs and look after their young. Forget plants with most of them though.


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## DrPhill (30 Nov 2019)

Apistogramma (south american cichlids) did not ruin my tank flora (many years ago but I doubt that they have evolved very much). I bred A. Cactuoides, or, rather, provided conditions in which they were happy to breed. Delightful watching their parental care..... I dont remember any plant damage (apart from the clumbsy pleco that grew too big).


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## Stigmorgan (30 Nov 2019)

Smaller cichlid like rams and the apistogramma family will be fine with plants, South African cichlids are generally from either lake tanganyika and lake Malawi, these two can't be mixed in the same tank as the waters are very different, Malawi cichlids are generally herbivorous so will eat and destroy almost all plant matter you put in, those from lake tanganyika are hit and miss, some will destroy all plants some won't.


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## Stigmorgan (22 Dec 2019)

a friend and I found out about a shop yesterday so went to see what stock they have and were very pleased, I fell in love with most of the pieces of wood they had in stock and spent a couple hours going through them all and ended up choosing two pieces, sho who must be obeyed almost had a heart attack when I got home and told her I'd spent almost £200 on wood, merry Christmas to me :ho2 :deer :ho2


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## ColeyS1 (22 Dec 2019)

That's does look very promising! My first experience with bogwood wasn't great. I soaked it for weeks outside etc etc buy I still had issues with fish dying. I've been contemplating buying two rams for a tenner for...months. They really do bring me so much joy watching the tanks ! I do a daily scan of the tanks and still feel a bit touched when I spot a poor fish- The two goldfish seem unphased by anything!When people say they have a quarantine tank to they just mean they have a tank of water ready to separate them? I cant quite figure out how I could have an empty tank full of helpful bacteria ready unless I'd just need to do frequent water changes...?

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## sunnybob (23 Dec 2019)

Two reasons for a quarantine tank.
The main one is to put new fish into for a week before you put them in the main tank. This will stop any diseases or parasites from the shop being introduced to your very expensive collection of fragile animals. This tank will have its own filter system and be treatable with medicines.
The ultimate level of this is to practice total hygiene. the quarantine tank should have it own nets and nothing should ever be put from one tank into the main tank. And that includes your hands without washing them thoroughly first.

Sounds like a lot of fuss, but just work out what an epidemic would cost you

The other one is as a hospital tank for any fish that shows any sign of illness or being attacked by others.


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## Stigmorgan (23 Dec 2019)

You don't need to have a tank set up empty all the time, just a spare tank for emergencies stored somewhere is fine, you can take a little media from your running filter and add it to the filter in the quarantine tank to seed it with the bacteria you need. 

Bogwood if bought from an aquatics store shouldn't harm the fish unless it has been contaminated somehow, the tannins released when it is new can have a slight effect on the Ph but shouldn't be enough to kill fish unless they are already very sick/stressed.


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## ColeyS1 (24 Dec 2019)

sunnybob":1f14sxxw said:


> Two reasons for a quarantine tank.
> The main one is to put new fish into for a week before you put them in the main tank. This will stop any diseases or parasites from the shop being introduced to your very expensive collection of fragile animals. This tank will have its own filter system and be treatable with medicines.
> The ultimate level of this is to practice total hygiene. the quarantine tank should have it own nets and nothing should ever be put from one tank into the main tank. And that includes your hands without washing them thoroughly first.
> 
> ...



That does make sense Bob. I guess I've been lucky just introducing them to the main tank as I go. Have i also been lucky using the same cleaning sponge for my coldwater goldfish tank and my tropical tank ?

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## ColeyS1 (24 Dec 2019)

Stigmorgan":2kryyvnw said:


> You don't need to have a tank set up empty all the time, just a spare tank for emergencies stored somewhere is fine, you can take a little media from your running filter and add it to the filter in the quarantine tank to seed it with the bacteria you need.
> 
> Bogwood if bought from an aquatics store shouldn't harm the fish unless it has been contaminated somehow, the tannins released when it is new can have a slight effect on the Ph but shouldn't be enough to kill fish unless they are already very sick/stressed.


Taking some noodles from my main tank makes sense thanks. 


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## sunnybob (26 Dec 2019)

Fish are livestock. livestock get illnesses and diseases, thats a fact.
A good dealer will not sell an obviously bad fish, but sometimes its not obvious, and sometimes a busy assistant will just bag it for you without paying attention. 
The more fish you have, the more money you have invested in the tank.

So theres the financial aspect, and the "pet" aspect to consider.
It makes sense to protect your investment by keeping any new thing (fish, plants, bogwood) away from the main tank.
You can dose the quarantine tank with bactericde and parasites for fish AND plants. You can closely observe the seperated tank for several days to see if the fish show signs of disease or illness, and if snail eggs or other parasites appear on the plants and bogwood.

Bogwood is not very often actual bogwood, because thats quite rare by comparison to old roots that have been hacked with a chainsaw and soaked in strong tea for a month or two. That used to go on over 30 years ago, I'm sure its commonplace nowadays. I would put a new piece of bogwood in its own water for a week and then take a PH reading (and even DH if you have that tester). 

If your goldfish tank is healthy, and your tropical tank is healthy, swapping stuff is not an issue. But ANY addition to EITHER tank brings the risk of calamity closer.


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## ColeyS1 (26 Dec 2019)

Thanks Bob, my only one other question (for now.....) is how long should tank lighting be on for the plants to stand the best chance of growing nice green and healthy. I've had an electronic timer ready to go for months but have never got around to setting it up. At the moment it gets switched on for around 5 hours a day,i only switch on one of the tubes aswell.










Other than the fish eating it,the leaves are also quite yellow and brown in places. Would that be due to lack of light or something else entirely?
Thanks as always,
Coley

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## Phil Pascoe (26 Dec 2019)

https://tropica.com/en/guide/make-your- ... ess/light/

You'll be surprised how much you need for perfect conditions.


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## sunnybob (26 Dec 2019)

Heres the answer to your light question, by asking a question;
How many hours of sunlight does the plant get when it in its native setting in the tropics?

1 hour, 3 hours? :roll: 
Nah. 8 to 14 hours of blazing sunshine is the answer :shock: 
How many watts of power are you using? How many watts of power is in the the sunshine? :shock: 
Having frightened you silly, its not quite that bad (hammer) .
Where in the room is the tank? South facing window? good. Far corner of a room with no windows? very bad.
Lights on in the room for 8 hours? good. lights on for 2 hours in the evening? very bad. 1 x2ft warm white tube on the tank? very, very bad. As many full length tubes side by side as you can fit in the lid with a mixture of grolux and north light? Pretty good.
You get the drift? Theres no quick answer from a distance, but the rule of thumb is that "more is good".

Just like watching the fish for their health, the same rules go for the plants. Do they go brown and rot? More light. Do they flourish and grow quite quickly? youre on the money. Does the tank glass and everything in the tank go bright green with algea? too much light.

Your tank
Your ambient lighting conditions
Your planting and fish stocking levels
Your rules for lights. 8) 8) 
But always be prepared to adapt your rules as fish and plants multiply. Nothing in a tank is constant.


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## Stigmorgan (26 Dec 2019)

ColeyS1":vyf1k2bj said:


> Thanks Bob, my only one other question (for now.....) is how long should tank lighting be on for the plants to stand the best chance of growing nice green and healthy. I've had an electronic timer ready to go for months but have never got around to setting it up. At the moment it gets switched on for around 5 hours a day,i only switch on one of the tubes aswell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Without knowing every little detail such as tank position compared to windows and room lighting I would suggest starting with the timer being on for 6 hours a day and adjust it as you need to, too much light and algae will take over, there are many factors that have an effect other than lighting such as available nutrients which will be affected by how much you feed the fish, how many fish you have, even how many plants you have and if they are are dying off or thriving and how much and how often you do water changes, basically every tank set up is different and you will have to trial and error to find the balance that works for you, read a lot and watch YouTube, take what will work for you. My current small tank is lit for 8 hours a day, the fish are fed 6 days a week and I change 15-20% of the water every 2 weeks, this regime will have to change when everything gets moved to the new big tank and it could take a few months to get the balance back.


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## ColeyS1 (3 Apr 2020)

Went to bed last night and all was well with the fish tanks. This morning I go in the kitchen to find my nieces goldfish had got stuck in a hollow plastic rock ornament. I tried to gently pull which didn't work and in the end left the ornament upside down which eventually worked and the goldfish wriggled free. 
Is the stress from being trapped for who knows how long likely to kill the fish within a few days? Is there anything I can do in the meantime?




There's a white patch where the scales have rubbed off, is this likely to get infected if left untreated? The worst thing is I sent my niece a video of them both on Wednesday showing how happy they both are.

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## sunnybob (3 Apr 2020)

Pulled it backwards :shock: :shock: (hammer) (hammer) =D> =D> 

Should not be any problem health wise, but keep a close watch and if there is any bullying from other fish seperate it, even a big kitchen bowl will do for a goldfish, as long as you arrange it so the the thing cant jump out.

If the affected area shows any wispy fungus type threads, treat with any bactericide you have. In fact you could do that anyway. 8)


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## ColeyS1 (3 Apr 2020)

Thanks Bob. I put some medication in the tank, hopefully it'll pull through. One of it's small flappy wing arm things doesn't seem to be moving as much as the other now. Hopefully it might recover in a few days. If it wasn't my nieces I adopted I wouldnt be quite as bothered, that said I do enjoy seeing them race around the tank on a daily basis. 

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