# Uni Education and student loans



## [email protected] (10 Dec 2017)

So our Son 17yrs old is looking at Uni for Sept 2018 start. Admittedly he is passionate about his subject so hopefully this will translate into a proper career and good financial reward.

He would get the full loan amount as we as parents don't officially earn over the level required to contribute nor could we afford to much.

The final amount of loan for his 3 yr course will be circa £55K.

I seem to be the lone voice around him that says is he sure he wants to acumulate so much debt. His lecturers at College tell him to ignore the debt - its kind of the "way you need to do it" and dont pay it off. He will leave Uni with £55K worth of debt which will increase by £1800 a year if he pays nothing off. Thus if he pays £150 a month toward the debt, the amount owing will stay still as he would be just paying the interest :roll: 

Add to the above it is my opinion that alot of Unis are now money making ventures that line peoples pockets. Classroom hours are ridiculous. My daughter had about 12 hrs per week tuition onsite at her Uni and thats only in term time. I think the whole thing stinks and I do wonder if a recent article was correct when the writer said Uni fees would be the next mis selling scandal. I mean, how many students know that if they pay £150 a month off their loan they will be paying nothing off the capital and thats with RPI at the level it is now. Uni places seem more accessable, our daughter sailed into hers. Lots of our sons mates have had unconditional offers.

So many students going to Uni to study a history degree then leaving (with massive debt) and not having a clue what to do and ending up in a dull job earning no money.

But when I mention my relative opposition to alot of Uni educuation I feel I'm being regarded as having a chip on my shoulder.

Just wondering what others thought...

PS I do acknowledge there are some very worthwhile courses out there but the list is endless for many of the others.


----------



## Myfordman (10 Dec 2017)

If he wants to do it then just go ahead. It is highly unlikely that most students will ever pay off their loan and it will get written off.
An important point is to note that the debt does not appear on his credit history.
But it is not a 3-4 year holiday! he will require to work hard and achieve high attendance rates in order to stand out from the huge crowd of the student population bloated in the last decade or so by the huge increase in the number of places.
I would advise choosing a subject that directly relates to a career. Almost any engineering discipline will be ideal.
Arts courses are primarily training grounds for McDonalds, and Uber unless he is really exceptionally talented AND lucky.

Good Luck!


----------



## porker (10 Dec 2017)

Debt for young people really worries me. I agree most universities are money making businesses with the ones I am familiar with (I went to a couple in the late 80's) having expanded beyond all recognition. I also think there needs to be some sort of reality check with how well the courses set the students up for decent job prospects once they have graduated. My own kids are too young to be deciding what they want to do yet, but my niece is looking at the moment at apprenticeships that lead to a degree. She will be working for the company and earning, admittedly not much, but the debt scares her to death as she comes from a single parent family where money has always been tight. She has asked my advice and I told her to look at something where there will be real job prospects at the end of it. 

Regarding value for money, I think there will be a growing push back from students funding courses to see whether they get value for money. Some of the courses only appear to be offering a few hours of classroom time a week yet are still charging the full £9k+ course fees. 

The reality is that social mobility is a joke and has got worse every year since I was in education irrespective of the colour of government in power at the time. The reality is that we shouldn't be trying to send 50% of kids to university. What about the trades, even in the emerging technologies such as AI and robotics. There will be jobs for skilled hands-on people but I'm not sure where they are going to come from. Nobody seems to want to invest in proper training these days but want to buy in trained people.

There are those who say just take on the debt as you don't need to pay it off until you have a job above a certain threshold but to me the threshold is pretty low and young people have other things to spend their money on such as unaffordable housing and a young family. 

I'm just under 50 and feel the young have it tough at the moment. Plenty of people always ready to put them down, but some of the responsibility must be on our generation. I do some work to mentor young people and encourage them into the engineering field (telecoms) so feel like I am somewhat in touch with this generation.


----------



## HappyHacker (10 Dec 2017)

Get him to ask of each university:
What percentage drop out in each year?
What percentage get a decent degree (2:1?)?
What percentage get jobs relevant to their degree? They may not know the answer to this one but the better one track their graduates.
What percentage get jobs that require a degree?
Get him to look at the student reviews of the actual course he wants to take and the university. 

He must evaluate the above critically, it is easy to say I will not be one of the ones to drop out but if he does so after two years he will have most of the debt and no degree. 

I agree that many degrees and universities are a waste of time but many jobs require a degree, irrespective of actual need, due to the laziness of HR departments and the devaluation of degrees. 

There are many good apprenticeship schemes, along with many bad ones, that give the advantage of earning while he learns and can significantly increase the chance of a job in the future due to the experience he will have gained. 

A good university and a good course can set him up for life, if he makes the right choices, works hard and gets a good degree.

Many degree courses are just job creation schemes for the university management.

While student loans were a good idea the rules keep on changing and the interest rate is now quite high and the administration appears to be rubbish. All may change again depending on the colour of the next government and how much they are prepared to increase our national debt.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (10 Dec 2017)

I worked with a lady chemistry tutor in a sixth form college, a very clever lady well past normal retirement age who when this subject was broached told me that unless a degree was absolutely necessary for entry to a profession such as medicine, architecture, vetinary medicine etc. she would advise any bright young person not to go to university, but to look for employment in their chosen field with large companies that would train them anyway. I pointed out an article in The Times to a friend of my daughter about blue chip companies taking on people straight from school - I didn't hear anything more about her until recently when my daughter looked up one day and said dad, you remember Abi? She did what they said in that article you showed her - she's nearly finished her ACCA exams with KPMG. I think the kid owes me a nice bottle of plonk.


----------



## Losos (10 Dec 2017)

porker":l9ssnjwt said:


> we shouldn't be trying to send 50% of kids to university. *What about the trades, even in the emerging technologies such as AI and robotics.
> *
> There will be jobs for skilled hands-on people but I'm not sure where they are going to come from. Nobody seems to want to invest in proper training these days but *want to buy in trained people*.
> 
> Plenty of people *always ready to put them down*, but some of the responsibility must be on our generation. I do some work to mentor young people and encourage them into the *engineering field (telecoms)* so feel like I am somewhat in touch with this generation.



I am horrified at how pretty much any further education establishment can now call itself a 'unniversity. There are about 450 so called unniversities in the UK now and *only 24 of them* are 'proper' unniversities. These are known as '*The Russel Group*' all the rest are either the lower echelons i.e. 'Red Brick' or worse they are colleges of further education that have been allowed to change their name and to call themselves a unniversity. 

You are right trying to send 50% of kids to unni is just plain stupid and results in tens of thousands of youngsters going into the work place with not the slightest idea about how things really work, they don't have the 'hand on' experience which in my opinion is *absolutely vital.*

So far as employers are concerned, when so much is controlled by the 'bean counters' trying to recruit 'ready trained' staff is an obvious way to go, but it is the *WRONG* way.* Whatever happened to the traditional apprenticeship schemes* :?: On leaving school kids should be encouraged to take up an apprenticeship and study at evening classes (or maybe one day a week) and should work in every department of the firm and really learn what is right and wrong and how to do it right and avoid doing it wrong.

I have been known to put down the young on occassions, can you blame me when sitting on a mountain top (installing a radio station) and faced with a so called unniversity graduate who was supposed to be doing the mechanical installation, some fasteners needing a torque wrench, picks up the wrench and looks at it like it was *some kind of alien monster.* never seen one in his entire life :roll: All his 3 or whatever years in unniversity, enters an engineering career, and *doesn't have a clue* what a torque wrench is.

Had he done an apprenticeship he would have learned (*In the factory*) how to bolt down the racks properly, yes he would have to *study in his own time*, *not earn much, get ordered about, and even have the mickey taken*, but after 5 years he would be a *hell of a lot more use* to a team of enginers installing stuff on a mountain top than some one who had only been in classes at some red brick unni and spent most of his time partying and such.

To the OP I say, unless his son is able to get into a Russel Group unniversity, *forget it*, decide what he wants to do and help him to get a good apprenticeship with a good firm. He won't rack up huge debts and he will *likely be earning more* than many who graduate with degrees in media studies or some useless subject ending 'ology' :lol:


----------



## Phil Pascoe (10 Dec 2017)

My daughter's four friends all graduated a year before her as she changed course, they all got 2.1s in different subjects from Exeter, which is no Mickey Mouse university. I asked her how well they were doing, whether they were working. Yes, she said, they're all working - in shops. My daughter was fortunate, she bowled into a dream job the week she graduated - but I suspect it was as much to do with her having worked since she was fourteen and full time through all her holidays since then as it was to her degree.


----------



## [email protected] (10 Dec 2017)

interesting comments as always. I am finding that notwithstanding a previous posters experience, there appears alot of pressure from further education ie 6th form and colleges for students to go on to Uni.

I think one of the issues with Uni's nowadays is that they are often one big sales machine. That is to say, you are never quite sure how to get the relevant info from them and there is the suspicion that what they tell you is what you want to hear within the framework of what they are allowed to say. I take on board the list of questions previous poster suggested - what is to stop them massaging the info when they reply?

I do agree that get on the right course at the right Uni and the experience will be a positive one as long as the student comes out with with what their chosen industry wants. It seems a constant moan from various industries that students are coming out with the wrong abilities. TBH its wearing me down a bit. My Son knows what he wants to and is very talented at it. I think there is a fair chance he will pick the wrong Uni course as the right one and the only way I can make sure this doesnt happen is contact people in his chosen industry and get them to tell me as it is so thats what i have in store during the next week!. He's doing Computer 3D animation which is quite encompassing within that industry and includes CGI and much more, most of which goes over my head. Any comments invited about this subject from anyone who has experience in this industry (which like it or not, is huge)


----------



## El Barto (10 Dec 2017)

As someone who works in the film/tv commercials industry I can safely say that a degree is a complete waste of time and money. Your son will graduate and if he’s lucky enough to get a job in a post house, it will be as a runner. I don’t mean for that to sound harsh, it’s just the way it is. I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I’ve met in this industry with a relevant degree in the 8 years I’ve been doing it. When I was a runner going between companies I spent a bit of time in post houses and everyone I met who was animating or doing actual post work had been a runner and got moved up. These companies like to train from within, you’re essentially an apprentice there. So my advice to your son would be, make as much stuff as you can, build up a decent reel, apply for entry level jobs at post-houses. If he’s good at animation/cgi and has common sense he’ll get noticed, I can about guarantee that. In the three years he might have spent at uni, he will instead have three years experience under his belt which will be infinitely more valuable.

I dropped out of school at 15 and got a job as a runner next to recent uni graduates, it really didn’t matter. We were all in the same boat. I’d be happy to share some useful info or websites with your son if you/he wants.


----------



## DaddyG (10 Dec 2017)

My daughter was told to look at it as a graduate tax not a debt, and unless she earned I think it was about £65k a year from graduation till retirement she would never pay it all off!!!
Scarey but I guess they are all in the same situation.


----------



## thetyreman (10 Dec 2017)

It's not for everyone, dropping out was the right thing to do for me, before getting into astronomical debt.


----------



## [email protected] (10 Dec 2017)

El Barto":oj4ot92c said:


> As someone who works in the film/tv commercials industry I can safely say that a degree is a complete waste of time and money. Your son will graduate and if he’s lucky enough to get a job in a post house, it will be as a runner. I don’t mean for that to sound harsh, it’s just the way it is. I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I’ve met in this industry with a relevant degree in the 8 years I’ve been doing it. When I was a runner going between companies I spent a bit of time in post houses and everyone I met who was animating or doing actual post work had been a runner and got moved up. These companies like to train from within, you’re essentially an apprentice there. So my advice to your son would be, make as much stuff as you can, build up a decent reel, apply for entry level jobs at post-houses. If he’s good at animation/cgi and has common sense he’ll get noticed, I can about guarantee that. In the three years he might have spent at uni, he will instead have three years experience under his belt which will be infinitely more valuable.
> 
> I dropped out of school at 15 and got a job as a runner next to recent uni graduates, it really didn’t matter. We were all in the same boat. I’d be happy to share some useful info or websites with your son if you/he wants.



el barto, thanks for your insight! 

but what he wants to do isnt film/ tv industry as I understand it.

I would be interested in the response from TIGA https://tiga.org/ if I ask them this question (worthless degree) as it is a very definitive statement to make and absolutely, if you re correct I have alot to thank you for. 

Interestingly I was chatting to my son about 6 weeks ago and we discussed the very options you have outlined ie getting a job and working up and he seemed quite keen on that idea especially the notion of earning some money straight away and not having the debt which I was supportive of.... that was until he talked with his college who emphatically said Uni was a must. I even got accused of brain washing him by one of his mates in suggesting he didnt do Uni.Personally I side with those that think Uni degrees should be reserved for stuff like medical and other useful things that the UK needs. 

There appears to be very good understanding from TIGA which is the games industry trade body set up that students are not being prepped for real work in their industry. I am trying to organise a meeting for our son with one of their board members so we can see whats what. I hear what you say but I would be surprised if they tell me a degree from the right Uni and the right course is a complete waste of time and money especially as their give accreditation to 17 course currently in the UK. If when we meet up, I'll feed back to you and let you know what they say.

really appreciate your comments btw


----------



## TFrench (10 Dec 2017)

You're definitely going at it the right way. His mate who accused you of brainwashing him is the one with the problem - even when I left school 13 years ago they were trying to push everybody into higher education - it was like I'd said I wanted to strap wings on and fly to mars when I said I was leaving to do a manual job! My brother works in a uni and the management just see the students as cash cows - his science based course (which leads to a proper medical qualification and near guaranteed job) doesn't attract as many students as business studies which costs much less to run so their funding is always being squeezed. 

A friend of mine who works in graphic design was marking student papers while he was still younger than the guys taking the course. If you can get a foot in the door and work your way up that'd the way to go.


----------



## Dibs-h (10 Dec 2017)

phil.p":2zx1iinw said:


> I worked with a lady chemistry tutor in a sixth form college, a very clever lady well past normal retirement age who when this subject was broached told me that unless a degree was absolutely necessary for entry to a profession such as medicine, architecture, vetinary medicine etc. she would advise any bright young person not to go to university, but to look for employment in their chosen field with large companies that would train them anyway.



That lady is one very astute lady! 

And I fully agree with the sentiment - unless a degree is an entry requirement to a career, a complete waste of time & money. Unless the kid is a trust fund type, in which case they have money to burn no doubt. Being able & willing to do a cost to benefit analysis seems to be a dying thing.

But then again the willingness to acquire debt is probably a greater symptom in society, so perhaps the kids are following suit.

Dibs


----------



## El Barto (10 Dec 2017)

[email protected]":10omyjp6 said:


> El Barto":10omyjp6 said:
> 
> 
> > As someone who works in the film/tv commercials industry I can safely say that a degree is a complete waste of time and money. Your son will graduate and if he’s lucky enough to get a job in a post house, it will be as a runner. I don’t mean for that to sound harsh, it’s just the way it is. I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I’ve met in this industry with a relevant degree in the 8 years I’ve been doing it. When I was a runner going between companies I spent a bit of time in post houses and everyone I met who was animating or doing actual post work had been a runner and got moved up. These companies like to train from within, you’re essentially an apprentice there. So my advice to your son would be, make as much stuff as you can, build up a decent reel, apply for entry level jobs at post-houses. If he’s good at animation/cgi and has common sense he’ll get noticed, I can about guarantee that. In the three years he might have spent at uni, he will instead have three years experience under his belt which will be infinitely more valuable.
> ...



Ah ok gaming! I get you. I can’t say I know much about that side of animation/cgi but based on what I know about my industry and friends who are in the graphic design/digital industries, which aren’t all that far removed, I’d say they’re probably quite similar. A meeting with someone at tiga sounds really helpful and it might be worth your son reaching out to a load of different gaming companies about work experience. Even if it’s just a week at least it’ll give him a real world idea of what day to day in the office is like and also what he needs to get to that level. That’s what I’d do anyway.

As a side note/edit, I think it’s really awful what the education system is doing to young people at the moment. His college saying uni is a must is shocking. Because it’s not a must. Everyone I know who has gone to university has struggled to get work afterwards, unless they did something very specialised (medicine and the like). My brother graduated with a first in English a couple of years ago, did a masters and graduated with a first again. He then moved to London to stayed on my sofa for six months and in that time all he could get was bar work. His search for a “proper job” was never ending. Same as a friend in graphic design, graduated with a first in graphic design but of course went in at an entry level position along with people who didn’t get a degree in it. It’s all about portfolio/experience.

What I’m saying is that schools and colleges scaring the sh*t out of their students with this insane pressure to get good grades and go to university is appalling. Need to calm down now.


----------



## finneyb (11 Dec 2017)

As others have said it depends on the course, if its necessary to enter a profession then there is no choice, otherwise I would think carefully. 

I hear a lot about apprenticeships - they seem to be flavour of the month - they are not just trade apprenticeships they are across the board in to administration, marketing etc and go to higher and degree apprenticeships https://www.gov.uk/topic/further-education-skills/ I would certainly be exploring them.

A few years ago we visited an old uni friend - both males are Civil engineers. His wife an English teacher. She asked why did I go to Uni - my answer to get a better job. Her response I know someone else like that! ( her husband). She went to study the subject in depth with a particular Professor. So the reasons to go to Uni are many - personally my only motive remains a better job.

I'd ignore the current teachers - they are looking at their figures to attract the next generation of 6th Formers ie 75% of pupils went to uni from this college etc.

Brian


----------



## dzj (11 Dec 2017)

A question I heard the other day was how would university professors themselves fare in 
the job market they are allegedly preparing our kids for.
Any similarities with WW gurus is purely coincidental.


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

Education and training should be freely available to all at all ages. 
Think of it as "investment in human capital" or "personal empowerment" or whatever other convenient catch phrase. 
UK is falling behind badly on this. 
It shouldn't need explaining or justifying - that we need an educated and/or well trained population should be glaringly obvious. You should want your neighbours/friends/family to be competent, empowered, useful.
Breaking down the arbitrary distinction between "university" and other forms of education is a progressive step - education for all rather than a privilege for the few.


----------



## Keith 66 (11 Dec 2017)

My son is in his final year at Bristol doing electronics & electrical engineering, he has knuckled down & worked hard & i am very proud of him.
There is a demand for electrical engineers so he should do ok.
We were lucky that an endowment policy we had kept running paid out & basically covered his accomadation costs for his time at uni.
Many of his friends have done degrees at what were glorified colleges & walked away with useless bits of paper & massive debt, One was reduced to standing on a roundabout with a dominos pizza board round his neck while builders vans chucked pee bottles at him.


----------



## Chris152 (11 Dec 2017)

Losos":uvsm4qrm said:


> There are about 450 so called unniversities in the UK now and *only 24 of them* are 'proper' unniversities. These are known as '*The Russel Group*' all the rest are either the lower echelons i.e. 'Red Brick' or worse they are colleges of further education that have been allowed to change their name and to call themselves a unniversity.



Take a look at the list of universities in the Russell Group, then take a look at the list of Red Brick universities. You'll see that your comment makes no sense.


----------



## nabs (11 Dec 2017)

My eldest son reports exactly the same pressure to go to university from his school, despite the fact that he wants to join the police and firmly believes that a practical apprenticeship with work experience would be the best way to prepare (he is in the policde cadets and sees this as the natural next step - quite reasonably IMO). 

Unfortunately the indiscriminate use of a degree as a basic requirement for all sorts of jobs that could be better trained using other routes is growing, and that in turn means many young people unsuited to higher education are ending up in unsuitable courses which, to make matters worse, are sometimes badly run and taught.

So you are quite right to ask the skeptical questions, but it sounds like your son has found something he loves doing in which case I would not worry too much if his heart is set on it - for many people it is one of the most enjoyable and memorable episodes in their lives and there are non-financial benefits to universities, particularly for the academically inclined.


----------



## Glynne (11 Dec 2017)

Chris152":2j523e40 said:


> Losos":2j523e40 said:
> 
> 
> > There are about 450 so called unniversities in the UK now and *only 24 of them* are 'proper' unniversities. These are known as '*The Russel Group*' all the rest are either the lower echelons i.e. 'Red Brick' or worse they are colleges of further education that have been allowed to change their name and to call themselves a unniversity.
> ...


I read that and thought hang on, the "Red Brick" universities were the ones thought of as proper!


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

Glynne":1u0ajum5 said:


> Chris152":1u0ajum5 said:
> 
> 
> > Losos":1u0ajum5 said:
> ...


Yep. Closer to education for all - not just a privileged few.


----------



## nabs (11 Dec 2017)

I went to a red-brick and they are indeed noble institutions put in mayor cities with the intention of increasing access to those who were otherwise denied the opportunity. Unfortunately, it does not mean they are exempt for running inappropriate courses for ill suited students!*

*edit - I should add the original vision for these universities was to focus on science, engineering and other practical matters.


----------



## RogerS (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob":2i2ze50b said:


> .....
> Yep. Closer to education for all - not just a privileged few.



Soapbox time. Again.


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

nabs":qw9ngg9k said:


> I went to a red-brick and they are indeed noble institutions put in mayor cities with the intention of increasing access to those who were otherwise denied the opportunity. Unfortunately, it does not mean they are exempt for running inappropriate courses for ill suited students!*
> 
> *edit - I should add the original vision for these universities was to focus on science, engineering and other practical matters.


Many of them started as technical colleges. There were technical schools too. 
The "powers that be" had reluctantly accepted that work forces need education and training. They made every effort to train the ruling classes separately and with a different syllabus. "Grammar" schools was a last effort to maintain exclusivity and privilege. In the early days they had no science teaching at all and the only technical teaching was woodwork for some reason. Hobby for the gentry I suppose.
Unfortunately education empowers people and leads to democracy - which the "powers that be" don't like.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Dec 2017)

There was a letter in The Times a few years ago on the subject of degrees. A chap wrote that when he was young (in the '50s) "O" levels were introduced as being suitable for the top 20% of the population, and now degrees are deemed suitable for the top 50%. Human intellect hasn't changed very much in sixty years - so therefore something else has.

I was at work one day when a friend came to asked for a hand with a problem he couldn't solve. I had changed my job and was working in a different department. I went with him and sorted it out. I returned to my job and another friend asked if I had any qualifications to do the previous job. No, I replied, other than being extremely good at it - why do you ask? That's what I thought, he said, I just think it's funny that he comes to you for advice when you are unqualified and he is an NVQ assessor.
I met another friend, a (very good) builder who had been offered a great job in the local college - he told the bloke he had to turn it down as he didn't have qualifications. Don't worry, we'll get you the teaching qualifications, he was told. That's not what I meant, he said, I meant I haven't got any qualifications to do what I do.
About twenty years ago I worked with a young girl who went for an interview with a top London restaurant. She asked them if they wanted to see her certificates and they said no, not really, there's a bag of ingredients on the table, the ovens are hot, go and cook them -
unfortunately nowadays you are unlikely to get anywhere without the current favourite bits of paper.


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

phil.p":112les7x said:


> There was a letter in The Times a few years ago on the subject of degrees. A chap wrote that when he was young (in the '50s) "O" levels were introduced as being suitable for the top 20% of the population, and now degrees are deemed suitable for the top 50%. Human intellect hasn't changed very much in sixty years - so therefore something else has.
> 
> I was at work one day when a friend came to asked for a hand with a problem he couldn't solve. I had changed my job and was working in a different department. I went with him and sorted it out. I returned to my job and another friend asked if I had any qualifications to do the previous job. No, I replied, other than being extremely good at it - why do you ask? That's what I thought, he said, I just think it's funny that he comes to you for advice when you are unqualified and he is an NVQ assessor.
> I met another friend, a (very good) builder who had been offered a great job in the local college - he told the bloke he had to turn it down as he didn't have qualifications. Don't worry, we'll get you the teaching qualifications, he was told. That's not what I meant, he said, I meant I haven't got any qualifications to do what I do.
> ...


If you have intelligence and skills you are likely to get further and more quickly if you also have the benefit of some training and education.


----------



## Eric The Viking (11 Dec 2017)

El Barto":bj7fv96e said:


> As someone who works in the film/tv commercials industry I can safely say that a degree is a complete waste of time and money...
> ... I dropped out of school at 15 and got a job as a runner next to recent uni graduates, it really didn’t matter. We were all in the same boat.



I joined BBC engineering straight from school (they used to advertise in Radio Times!). Our first three months was _intensive_ physics, electronics and operational training. The lecturers said it was the equivalent of the entire first year of an electronics degree* (back then), and that was just the academic part (in roughly six weeks!). 

Every Friday there was a test, against the clock and with a pass mark of 90%, and you were only allowed to fail one of those tests (two failures meant termination). Around 1/3 of my course were graduates, about four of them were electronics graduates. The rest of us were straight from school. Two people (graduates) walked off the course as they couldn't take the pressure. I had several weekends of solid study (we were told what would be tested the following week), and friends often pulled all-nighters on Thursdays. I think two or three people were terminated.

All that was in the 1970s and 1980s. I did eleven years in the BBC and loved it. I worked on a number of BAFTA-winning TV shows (including all three of Attenborough's first wildlife "blockbusters", Life On Earth, Living Planet, etc.), and at the age of 22 was a Radio 4 producer (on attachment), but I finally resigned when I couldn't get the production job I wanted because I didn't have a degree (I kept coming second at interview). 

So I did a four-year sandwich course at our local Polytechnic, which turned into seven years, when my sandwich employer offered me a job in the middle of a recession (so I finished part-time).

So when my son wanted to study a media course (at Bournemouth), I took a keen interest. We went down to the open day together. The place is rated as one of the best meejuh universities in the country, _and the BBC even sponsors some of its courses_. All I can say is, "If that's true, heaven help people on some of the other courses." 

It was evident the lecturers were teaching stuff they had learned from books, not practiced themselves, and that many of the subjects had been dumbed-down to suit the abilities of the students. They had a bizarre TV studio - full of then state-of-the-art kit, but physically laid out in such a way as to be practically unusable. It had cost millions, but evidently been designed by nobody who had ever worked in a production TV studio, nor understood the necessities.

We (parents and potential undergrads) watched some promotional videos in a big lecture theatre, including cameos of four graduates, saying how wonderful the courses were. When the lights came up, I asked the Dean (who was taking questions), how many of those four were working at degree level in the industry. One of them was a runner, and that was it.

It turns out that each year, meejuh courses "graduate" more people than there are jobs in the entire UK broadcast industry, by several times. So small companies use them as unpaid interns, because supply exceeds demand by so much. And every day one sees and hears amateurish errors in broadcast activities, because the commitment to skills and operational training is no longer there.

One of my daughters, incidentally did her degree and PGCE at Bath Spa. She is livid about the Vice Chancellor's pay-off. Never mind the salary and perks, the golden handshake alone is worth around 25 yeas of her salary at the peak of her teaching career (certainly not now!).

Russell Group universities aren't exempt, either - my other daughter goes to one presently, and I've seen some of her coursework.

It's all horribly broken as far as I can tell.

E . :-(


----------



## RogerS (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob

Why the Hell do you have to derail every thread by getting on your tediously boring soapbox ?

There are some very good points being made by others to help the OP but you're cant about 'privilege' blah blah blah and your constant virtue-signalling is tedious in the extreme.


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

This has turned into one of those _moaning old men_ threads, with Roger leading the stumble! Or Gadarene rush more like. Very depressing, very inaccurate.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (11 Dec 2017)

"You should never let school get in the way of a good education."

I used to think that was rather cynical and tongue-in-cheek, but as life rolls on, I become more and more convinced that it's actually very sound advice, once you get past the basic educational foundation of reading, writing and mathematics.

Should you go to university these days? Take a long, hard look at what you want to study, and try to weigh up whether lifetime earnings will significantly exceed the costs of a degree. If yes, go for it. If not, dive into the world of work; you can always study most subjects later in life if need and desire are strong enough.

It's more likely that hard sciences, engineering, law and medical subjects will open the door to a well-paid career. The humanities - maybe not so much. The humanities are also subjects that are much easier to study yourself at your own leisure, and with much less likelihood of contamination with political indoctrination, which seems to be something of a problem in the humanities departments of many universities these days.


----------



## [email protected] (11 Dec 2017)

Hi Eric, when did you go down to Bournemouth, was it recently?

Thanks everyone for all the great info on this thread


----------



## Eric The Viking (11 Dec 2017)

About eight or nine years ago. I went twice (with two different children). The second visit wasn't for the Media school, but I popped in quickly. It hadn't changed.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Dec 2017)

Eric The Viking
It was evident the lecturers were teaching stuff they had learned from books said:


> I did few seasons of exam invigilation in the local sixth form college, and I used to hear staff advising students and think to myself you've never worked a week in a real world job, have you? The conditions and wages they were led to expect were unreal. I have teacher friend who maintains that no one should be allowed to teach anything until they've worked outside teaching for a minimum of ten years (he went into it from industry).
> As far as the Meejuh Studies is concerned, I worked with a girl the better part of twenty years ago who went to university for that. I showed her a newspaper article that said (even then) that there were more M.S. graduates every year than there were people employed in the whole media industry, and she said no one had told her this in careers advice. She's working now, though - she's a postie.


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

Funny how people slag off media studies. It's actually a mega employer. 
This is media that you are looking at now. Amazon, Google, Apple are all media industries. 
Then there's press, TV, radio, publishing. Extend it a bit further into the arts and it's even bigger. 
Much bigger than motor manufacturing, and a massive export trade too.

I was chatting to an old mate of mine who was also anti media and art studies. He thinks 'making things' is more important than abstractions. He's a double bass player - he thinks learning making musical instruments is important ("manufacturing") but he thinks learning to play them is arts nonsense. He's confused, as are a lot old men wittering on, as per this thread.


----------



## jw00d (11 Dec 2017)

Hi Matt,

I'm a freelance designer/animator who works in advertising/post-production world and went to Uni to study graphic design. Whilst I do see that it taught me the basic principles of design it did little to prepare me for my first day in a busy studio. They tried to teach the Adobe suite of software to us but it was largely implied that if we hadn't already become pretty handy in photoshop etc. by that point already then there wasn't much hope! (most of us had to of done a 1yr foundation course prior to the degree). The only other thing that did help was that most of the tutors were also working in the industry as well as teaching, some were running small agencies on the side so we had the benefit of them bringing in various contacts from other companies to give us an idea of what we'd really be doing if we got a job at their studio, and the possibility of a few work experience positions. 

That was the invaluable part - mostly because they ingrained in us that in most creative jobs despite being able to use the software and having a degree, your work/portfolio is the most important thing. I'd imagine with the games industry it is a similar kettle of fish, there'll be plenty of people out there who can use all the software but it's the past work/personal projects etc that shows what you can do, as competition will be tough in the games industry because it's smaller (as in no. of companies) than say advertising/post production industries. Nobody has ever asked to see my degree, and to a point even a CV is a little irrelevant besides showing the no. of years experience - having a good showreel and being able to talk through some of your work is the key.

I've got friends who are quite senior animators who never finished their degrees as they got a taste for the freelance money, but the contacts, friends and acquaintances you make at Uni can help a lot when it comes to finding jobs, freelance or permanent, in the future as most creative jobs, I've found, seem to rely on word-of-mouth to find people to fill roles. The other thing that studying a subject with a bunch of other people gives is there's generally a few side projects going on that you can get involved with and that will pad out your (mostly!) empty portfolio of work when you start looking for jobs.

The other place I will mention that a few people I know have been through is courses at Escape Studios https://www.pearsoncollegelondon.ac.uk/escape-studios/course-list.html and seem to be regarded well within the industy, you can do anything from an evening course to a degree and maybe a cheaper route than Uni with the benefit that they have their own recruitment department for placing people in jobs. I have used them as a recruiter even though I didn't do a course there.

So after that rambling reply, I would say it's a tough choice but there are some benefits that a degree gives beyond simple learning of the subject, but then degrees didn't cost 50k+ when I was deciding. Hope some of that helps, happy to answer any other questions if you have them.

Jamie


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob":byvqsv3b said:


> Funny how people slag off media studies. It's actually a mega employer.



Certainly- but that doesn't alter the fact that we are paying to train hundreds of thousands of people who will never work in it or will work in it but in fields that don't require a degree anyway.


----------



## [email protected] (11 Dec 2017)

jamie, great info, thank you  

the issue I have here is that on a personal basis I have a level of tenacity that my son/ his Mum dont even begin to touch!. I realise that making the right choice is entirely possible but it needs an awful lot of work in order to do so. The more I go on about it all the more peoples eyes seem to glaze over! I seem to be surrounded by people who want to skim over the surface of things and expect it all to fall into place and . Many of my sons mates wont even go the Uni open days for gods sake. Most frustrating :roll: 

The link to Pearson looks interesting - I'll look into that....


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Dec 2017)

I am reminded of the late radio presenter Mike Dicken, who was asked to lecture on a media studies course at some university or other. The interviewer told him he was ideal for the job and could he drop his qualifications at the desk. He said he didn't have any. What? None? No, he replied, other than fifty years working in local and national press, radio and television. Oh, sorry, said the interviewer, we can't employ you if you're not qualified. :roll: :lol: 

Incidentally Falmouth is thought to be very good for computer gaming etc. ............... I mean programming, not playing.


----------



## Chris152 (11 Dec 2017)

Matt 
Is it an option for him to try to get a job somewhere in the sector - at whatever level - with a view to getting a feel for it, before making a decision which route to go down? Lots of people head straight to university as if there was some great rush, but the reality for most people is that there isn't. Whatever happens, if he decides university is the way to go, a year or two working in the sector would probably only be a good thing. My son wants to be an engineer, and this is what I'll be encouraging him to do.
Chris


----------



## jw00d (11 Dec 2017)

[email protected]":1eyhtyr2 said:


> jamie, great info, thank you
> 
> the issue I have here is that on a personal basis I have a level of tenacity that my son/ his Mum dont even begin to touch!. I realise that making the right choice is entirely possible but it needs an awful lot of work in order to do so. The more I go on about it all the more peoples eyes seem to glaze over! I seem to be surrounded by people who want to skim over the surface of things and expect it all to fall into place and . Many of my sons mates wont even go the Uni open days for gods sake. Most frustrating :roll:
> 
> The link to Pearson looks interesting - I'll look into that....



No problem Matt...

Yup whatever route he chooses you should let him know that a creative job will take a hell of a lot of work to turn into a decent career, even if you're extremely talented, so you've got to be ready for that. It's the catch 22 of needing experience to get a job but can't get a job without experience. As someone else mentioned, with Uni's churning out new batches of graduates each year, and more and more Uni's doing animation/games design courses the competition for jobs is huge, I certainly wouldn't like to have to start again from scratch these days!


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

phil.p":2lvpb5dd said:


> Jacob":2lvpb5dd said:
> 
> 
> > Funny how people slag off media studies. It's actually a mega employer.
> ...


Basically, training is a good idea. 
It's surprising having to argue for it in this day and age.
Anybody out there wondering about doing a course of any sort; go for it, take no notice of the nay sayers. It could change your life.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Dec 2017)

Education is a good idea. Expensive poor quality training for non existent jobs isn't.


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

phil.p":2r07auco said:


> Education is a good idea. Expensive poor quality training for non existent jobs isn't.


Well obviously. Logical - but you haven't said anything remotely interesting.


----------



## finneyb (11 Dec 2017)

BBC Radio 4 You & Yours Tuesday 12.15 or on Radio iPlayer Was your degree worth it ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09hp2hs

Brian


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob":3466ktsp said:


> phil.p":3466ktsp said:
> 
> 
> > Education is a good idea. Expensive poor quality training for non existent jobs isn't.
> ...



That sentiment is mutual, I can assure you.


----------



## AES (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob wrote, QUOTE: Well obviously. Logical - but you haven't said anything remotely interesting. UNQUOTE:

My reply: Neither have you Jacob - but have simply taken the first opportunity to jump back on to the old socialistic diatribe soapbox - just as you so often do here!!!!!!!

WHY oh WHY can't you, in this case, as in so many other instances, just look at the OP's clear need for other people's HELPFUL opinions and experiences of what is for him clearly a difficult dilemma, instead of just, as so often in the past, mouthing the same old claptrap time after time after time?

And slanging me off for this post will NOT be in any way a useful answer Jacob. Changing your posting ways just might!!!!

AES


----------



## Glynne (11 Dec 2017)

Don’t you just love the season of peace on earth and goodwill to all men?


----------



## Phil Pascoe (11 Dec 2017)

Bah humbug!!!!!!!! :lol:


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

AES":3mgfkq0x said:


> Jacob wrote, QUOTE: Well obviously. Logical - but you haven't said anything remotely interesting. UNQUOTE:
> 
> My reply: Neither have you Jacob - but have simply taken the first opportunity to jump back on to the old socialistic diatribe soapbox - just as you so often do here!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I just scrolled back - I can't see anything I said as being particularly left wing.

The answer to the OP's dilemma is to support his son's application 100% in spite of the appalling grant system. 
He may not get another chance. 
The debt won't be repayable unless he earns quite a lot of dosh and in the meantime things might have become a bit more civilised with fewer disincentives to higher education.

PS apologies for mentioning the idea of free education for all - I realise it's a bit too "socialistic" for some! :lol: 
But it's a good investment - even third world countries have cottoned and are developing better education services than we have. Most of Europe is more advanced - the UK is getting left behind. It isn't socialism it's just common sense.

PPS My 3 kids all got degrees (and 2nd degrees) in arts and media subjects. One of them is doing a PhD. They have all been fully employed in useful jobs since they left university. They will never be out of work!


----------



## AES (11 Dec 2017)

@Jacob: You wrote, QUOTE: The answer to the OP's dilemma is to support his son 100% in spite of the appalling grant system. He may not get another chance. The debt won't be repayable unless he earns quite a lot of dosh and in the meantime things might have become a bit more civilised with fewer disincentives to higher education. UNQUOTE:

Well, we're getting there with you Jacob, well done indeed. Especially if we can change your first word above QUOTE: The ... UNQUOTE: to "MAY" !

I'll ignore the rest Jacob as being, at the very least, irrelevant.

To the point. Just as you say, an awful will depend on whether or not the present funding system changes - something that both you and I MAY well hope for, but which obviously, neither of us, nor anyone else, can know for certain.

But to me, the crux of the OP's dilemma is whether or not going to Uni is the BEST form of training/education (NOT the same thing BTW Jacob) that his son needs.

Not having been to Uni myself (like you I guess, we're of a similar age Jacob?) I don't think I'm in a position to offer the OP any practical/useful advice. So I haven't offered any (but I do wish you and your son all the best in getting to where you both want to be Matt).

I do think however that by doing the rounds of questioning everyone - even including all us here  - you're certainly doing everything reasonably possible to arrive at the "right" conclusion Matt.

So good luck with it.

The only thing in all this that really does concern me however is that from all I hear about UK these days (not lived there for over 25 years) is that APPARENTLY, unless you've got a degree of some sort to show, many companies (or their HR Depts) won't even start to consider you at all. If that really is so, then "shame on you all" I say.

AES


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

AES":1r88af8v said:


> @Jacob: You wrote, QUOTE: The answer to the OP's dilemma is to support his son 100% in spite of the appalling grant system. He may not get another chance. The debt won't be repayable unless he earns quite a lot of dosh and in the meantime things might have become a bit more civilised with fewer disincentives to higher education. UNQUOTE:
> 
> Well, we're getting there with you Jacob, well done indeed. Especially if we can change your first word above QUOTE: The ... UNQUOTE: to "MAY" !
> 
> ...


The OP could ask himself - does he have such a low opinion of his son's abilities that he thinks the opportunity would be wasted and the place better given to someone else?


----------



## AES (11 Dec 2017)

Off the point yet again Jacob. Leopards and spots and all that.

Bye bye.

AES


----------



## Inoffthered (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob":2m74lwah said:


> AES":2m74lwah said:
> 
> 
> > PS apologies for mentioning the idea of free education for all - I realise it's a bit too "socialistic" for some! :lol:
> > But it's a good investment - even third world countries have cottoned and are developing better education services than we have.




Of course, university and higher education used to be free, tuition fees were reintroduced by the socialist government of a certain Anthony Charles Lynton Blair.


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

Inoffthered":17c0be2i said:


> Jacob":17c0be2i said:
> 
> 
> > AES":17c0be2i said:
> ...


So what? What difference does that make?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition_f ... ed_Kingdom

NB It wasn't me that introduced a political theme to this thread - it was our Roger and AES, huffing and puffing! All their fault if it goes off the rails. :lol:


----------



## [email protected] (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob":3nsfh4ts said:


> AES":3nsfh4ts said:
> 
> 
> > @Jacob: You wrote, QUOTE: The answer to the OP's dilemma is to support his son 100% in spite of the appalling grant system. He may not get another chance. The debt won't be repayable unless he earns quite a lot of dosh and in the meantime things might have become a bit more civilised with fewer disincentives to higher education. UNQUOTE:
> ...



you need to swot up on what the Uni system is providing to our young people circa 2017. Do you actually know? Quite a few quotes on this thread from people that have direct experience of whats on offer - not the hearsay and predjudice as you seem to be implying. As to what my opinion is of my son what the hell business has it got to with you but I'll answer you anyway. He is highly talented, motivated and focused and I want whats best for him. Again, read of peoples experiences on this thread to find out why I am mindful that he might be short changed if he makes the wrong decision.


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

[email protected]":31i5r7e4 said:


> ....
> you need to swot up on what the Uni system is providing to our young people circa 2017. Do you actually know?..


All my kids have recently (last 20 years or less) been through higher ed. One of them is a university lecturer, now doing a PhD. First grandchild is half way through his 1st degree - started in Lancaster Uni now spending a year at Lyon Uni (France).
It would have been criminal to stand in their way!!
Yes the debt looms over them - but soddit there is no alternative at the moment.
We not well off - very little subsidy from parents or grandparents - but plenty of moral support.
This is not a new problem - years ago when free state education started being available you'd get "he'd be better off darn't pit wiv me and his grandad"
Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose!!



> He is highly talented, motivated and focused and I want whats best for him.


In which case I'd take advice from his lecturers - with all due respect they probably know more about higher ed than you or me.
Take no notice of the miserable moaning nay-sayers!!
20 years down the line - would your lad be glad that you stopped him going to Uni?


----------



## [email protected] (11 Dec 2017)

pertinent to my son, its the discussion in this article that has pricked my attention, though I realise its 4 yrs old. http://uk.ign.com/articles/2013/04/02/i ... ideo-games

So after reading the article, would you agree that its possible he could a get on a course that will let him down?

edit
or are you saying ANY further education is good education?

But I acknowledge this thread is more general and about Uni and loans. Still it does tie in with the above to some extent.....


----------



## Jacob (11 Dec 2017)

You just have to get the best advice you can - there are no guarantees. His lecturers will be concerned about his prospects. I'd listen to them. They don't get a bonus for sending him off to a course which would be no good!


----------



## [email protected] (11 Dec 2017)

just seen your recent edit - none of this is about me telling my son what to do, its about helping him make the right decision. As for the lecturers, from what I've heard I'm not sure they are always the best people for advice. The best people for advice clearly are the people that dish out the jobs ie the industry concerned. Did you read the article? its all explained there.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (11 Dec 2017)

Life can be a strange business. As someone once said, "There's no such thing as a career path. It's crazy paving, and you lay it yourself."

If your lad is set on a career in the computer games industry, he might achieve his ambition. However, are today's skills going to sustain him for a lifetime? My abiding passion as a young undergraduate of Mechanical Engineering was machine tools - but by the time I graduated, the British machine tool industry was declining so fast it was almost disappearing altogether. However, the broader-based degree subject won me a start in another branch of engineering - and I did get to play about with machine tools later in a hobby capacity, so that itch did get scratched!

Maybe there's a lesson there; studying Computer Science would give him more employment options without closing off his ambition in the games industry. There's nothing to say he can't keep up his interest whilst gaining a broader degree, either.

Sadly, many youngsters at school are told that they can be anything they want to be. It can come as a shock to some that they can only be what their abilities allow and what someone else is willing to pay for - so the broader their qualifications and abilities, the more choice they're likely to have in the jobs market.


----------



## finneyb (11 Dec 2017)

Jacob":m26z8r2d said:


> You just have to get the best advice you can - there are no guarantees. His lecturers will be concerned about his prospects. I'd listen to them. They don't get a bonus for sending him off to a course which would be no good!



Lecturers experience will be limited to education. You need people with experience of the work environment he wants if the advice is to be useful. Therefore seek advice from someone/company who is in the type of job/ area of work he wants at the level he aspires to. 

Brian


----------



## [email protected] (11 Dec 2017)

yep, agree 100% with last 2 posters....


----------



## --Tom-- (11 Dec 2017)

This year I finished paying off my student loan, and have a job and career that if I hadn't gone to uni I wouldn't have.
I studied environmental science, left uni and became a chartered accountant, and am now an information security specialist.
I got a part scholarship to uni so didn't have the full debt, but also made sure I positioned myself to be employable and employed

Lots of people I graduated with waited until they finished to start applying for jobs, and then complained that the careers service hadn't helped them walk into the job their degree entitled them too.

While I'd wanted to work in my field, I was graduating in 2008, and finding a job would be tough let alone a graduate job. So in penultimate year I applied for internships with big 4. Passed the recruitment centre, and then got to rotate around the firm trying roles in different departments until I found the one I liked best. I left the internship with a graduate offer which took a lot of the pressure off final year.

That internship was only available to undergraduates, as were the others I applied for.( I think some now do a school leaver equivalent though)

I then joined the graduate scheme, but elected to also study accountancy exams whilst there to give me the business knowledge. They were tough, more exams that I didn't need to do, but gave me the knowledge and another tick on my cv. Since then I've done a further 5 specific information security qualifications and am studying for 2 more currently.

Why is this relevant? Whilst picking a worthwhile degree subject should be the intention it doesn't constrain future options. Having a degree opens up the door to graduate schemes at a number of employers, and having this option makes it worth it IMO.

Importantly it will demonstrate an ability to work independently, critical thinking, and produce output to deadlines which are things employers will look for. It won't teach you drive, dedication and flexibility though which are key for getting you in front of that employer with enough to make you stand out. 

If you have kids in uni now, what are they doing to sort themselves out with a job when they graduate? If they're doing a degree with a specific job in mind are they actively trying to gain experience while they study? At Uni I got by working 30 hours a week, in my job I've done that much in 2 days. Using the free time at uni to work towards something is important.

Uni was also a great time, and a chance to spend 3-4 years postponing full adulthood. I had no parental support due to having a complicated family, and it gave me a chance to get set up, but also made sure I had something sorted for when I finished as I had nowhere to go back to.

If I had the time again I wouldn't hesitate to go to uni, the debt was big but not onerous as it comes out of your pay at an affordable rate. 

Regarding getting into the computer game industry, a few years back they were calling for people to study maths and physics and learn to code on the side rather than doing media or IT degrees. Really difficult industry to get into though as it's somewhat of an IT nirvana for a lot of people.
The degree won't be enough, an all consuming passion will be needed to succeed


----------



## Jacob (12 Dec 2017)

finneyb":21howg52 said:


> Jacob":21howg52 said:
> 
> 
> > You just have to get the best advice you can - there are no guarantees. His lecturers will be concerned about his prospects. I'd listen to them. They don't get a bonus for sending him off to a course which would be no good!
> ...


Tom's story above is very interesting and I'm sure that many others would tell a similarly meandering tale!
The best people to consult about your lad's course would be ex grads of the same course - difficult to track down, but not impossible. Next best his lecturers and other educational advisers.

Higher education opens doors - it's not just about getting a particular job, it can be a step into the unknown.
My grandson is doing French and Geography as a degree. Which employer would give positive advice on these as employment prospects? 
I've no idea, neither has he, but I'm certain that in a year or so he will be doing something interesting, worthwhile and possibly well paid (or with prospects at least!)


----------



## nabs (12 Dec 2017)

--Tom--":1yc219w8 said:


> Why is this relevant? Whilst picking a worthwhile degree subject should be the intention it doesn't constrain future options. Having a degree opens up the door to graduate schemes at a number of employers, and having this option makes it worth it IMO.
> 
> Importantly it will demonstrate an ability to work independently, critical thinking, and produce output to deadlines which are things employers will look for. It won't teach you drive, dedication and flexibility though which are key for getting you in front of that employer with enough to make you stand out.


two very good points Tom - my degree was in a subject that many would argue is the exemplar of impractical subjects (philosophy) but I was able to sustain a successful (non-academic!) career largely based on the thinking skills I developed and the confidence I got from doing well at degree level when I had done rather poorly at school. 

I would never try and dissuade anyone from doing any training in a subject they are passionate about for the same reason - I think the non-financial benefits are a reason on their own - however, I have asked myself recently whether I would taken the same path if I'd had to borrow 50k in order to participate, and what my life might have been like if I had not. I do not know the answer, and I am very grateful I did not have to consider it at the time.


----------



## [email protected] (12 Dec 2017)

Re. borrowing £50K for the course, despite parents and students apprehensions about accruing such a large debt, lecturers push very hard that it is a mechanism to gain Uni education and that it will be written off in 30 yrs time so go forward on that basis ie dont treat it as a debt as such. I'm not sure I agree that this is a good thing to teach young people. Others will say the system is what it is and without it you wont get Uni education so just go with it anyway and I can see that point of view as well. The other thing is over 30yrs is goalposts can be moved so the current rules may change in the future and not necessarily to the students advantage.

I could not disagree more with what Jacob here says generally - seems obvious to me the system is a bit broken and no education should be taken just for educations sake unless it is FOC. In the real world Uni education relates directly to future employment and earning money (or it should do) therefore it IS the employers that are the best ones to consult on what qualifications are most useful.


----------



## [email protected] (12 Dec 2017)

to everyone who taken who has taken the trouble to write useful posts (just about all of them) - grateful thanks =D> 

I am going to copy all these and show them to my son.


----------



## lurker (12 Dec 2017)

I come into this late, put off by Jacob & Roger with their handbags.

Up until 6 months go, part of my job was to mentor engineering graduates in the Nuclear business. 
As the company was well known for progressing graduates, we always had 100 times the applicants to annual intake places.

It was a forgone conclusion you had a "good" degree from a "good" university to even make the first cut. So you spend 3-4 years just to ensure the application form does not go in the bin 10 minutes after it has been opened and scan read for the first time. Other than that its of little interest.

5 years ago, we had a drop out rate considered to be too high. So HR had the selection removed from their remit, and it was put under a team of old gits like me and the drop outs fell to virtually nil. 

I (who never did Uni full time, wasn't done in my day: day release only!) was entirely responsible for the second cut: whittling the applications from around 300 to 50 who would be called for an interview.
This took me maybe 4 hours a year, all I did was look for something beyond the qualifications, this mainly consisted to some evidence of work experience and not just for a few months to make their cv look good.
What it was is not important, we were just looking for signs of self discipline and application, and even an ability to get yourself to work on time. 
It was fairly easy to sniff out the BS ers at that stage or during the first interview.
I recall one lad who stated he had rebuilt a Morris Minor, this was the sort of stuff we the interviewers were interested in. Unfortunately for him, one of the interview panel was an enthusiast and it was immediately obvious it was not true, he was shown the door in double quick time.


----------



## Rhyolith (12 Dec 2017)

Thank you for bringing this up, as someone who just came out of Uni I can really relate to a lot of what people have said. I ceratinly agree there is a problem with the the education system... a serious one! I could go on about it for days actaully :| 

Firstly, those who say to ingore the colleges telling students to go to Uni are totally right. They are seriously bias! The majority (if not all) of the teachers would have gone to Uni so are likely to want to encourage their students to go and have the same expirences they did. Then add to that the fact that the colleges performance figures are heavly based in how many of the their students go to Uni only compounds the issue. 

I went to Uni because of it was presented as THE main option, every other option was vague and unclear so naturally I choose the ‘safe’ route. 4 years of suffering later I have failed my degree and have all the debt of a graduate. I was obviously not suited for acadmeic work due to my plerthera of reading and writing difficulties, but I did not have the confidence as a teenager to go for something more “risky”... as it was presented by my 6th form.

The only thing that saved me really was going here before uni: http://www.ibtc.co.uk My parents are to thank for that. 

So to summaries I’d advise taking school and college opinions regarding unis with a metric ton of salt! 

I think the lack of career prospects from degrees has been discussed a lot, I will just say that judging from the position of most of my friends (who mostly did quite well in their degrees, including several firsts) the posters here are correct, degrees don’t help at all with a career unless its something like medicine. 

I will add two positives about Uni here though, social life and societies. Uni is the best place to make real life long friends and in my expierence this alone can make the whole thing worth it... *don’t underestimated how important this is! * I also learned a lot through student societies (Conservation volunteers in my case), they were ultimately more useful for my career prospects than thr course (even I think, if I had passed).

I don’t know much about computer science and CGI, but I think talking to the employers is the right thing to do. Unis and colleges have no idea whats really required in most professions in my experience.



phil.p":2k6co01o said:


> There was a letter in The Times a few years ago on the subject of degrees. A chap wrote that when he was young (in the '50s) "O" levels were introduced as being suitable for the top 20% of the population, and now degrees are deemed suitable for the top 50%. Human intellect hasn't changed very much in sixty years - so therefore something else has.


This just caught my eye and I will just go straight to the point and say it: There is no such thing as intelligence. People are equipped with mental tools that make the good at different things, some can interpret text really efficently, others can can figure out a complec equation like its 2+2... the whole thing is far to complicated to simplify down to one person being “smarter” than another. 

The reason I highlight that is that I think the chasing of this outdated concept is one of the biggest issues with our education system. We are obessed with exanations testing who is “smarter” or capable... trying to find prodigy’s. Surely we would all be better served by just helping everyone be the best they can be, regardless of how “good” that best is. 

Sorry for the rant phil. your post just reminded me of this trail of thought.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Dec 2017)

The point wasn't intelligence, it was degrees. The chap was just making a point that sixty years later 50% of the population aren't suddenly any smarter than 7% were then. It's the exams that have changed - look at a 100 year old eleven plus paper.

... People are equipped with mental tools that make them good at different things ...
Of course - and we know which clown decided university was the best choice for 50% of the population.


----------



## transatlantic (12 Dec 2017)

I personally felt like my degree was somewhat of a waste of time. It was very outdated, and half of it wasn't even applicable in my opinion.

Does it open doors? doubt it ... it might get you to the top of the list of potential interviews, but thats about it.


----------



## lurker (12 Dec 2017)

Phil,

I think you will find that there was a gradual increase in the % going to Uni even before we had heard of said clown.

The UK stopped being a manufacturing nation and the only decent jobs were white collar and thus required a higher qualification ( don't ask me why!).

The problem with MPs in the past 40 years is they all did "soft" subjects, same as the civil service. Thus technology suffered, because it was beyond their comprehension, even though its been our greatest strength. France & Germany did not make this mistake.


----------



## Rhyolith (12 Dec 2017)

phil.p":3awtt9qs said:


> The point wasn't intelligence, it was degrees. The chap was just making a point that sixty years later 50% of the population aren't suddenly any *smarter* than 7% were then. It's the exams that have changed - look at a 100 year old eleven plus paper.


That point does not make sense when you consider that being "smarter" is a fallacy. Which I believe it is... or at the very least an oversimplification of reality to such an extreme it might as well be a falsehood. 

I do though fundamentally agree with you as that too many people do degrees... or more the point academic courses. Just not for the reasons you (or the guy the article) present for it. 

I imagine that less than 20% of the population are actually suited to doing academic work, less still who will be properly good at it, so 50% going in to it is a ridiculous waste of resources and talent. People will always be good at many diverse things and any good nation needs to take advantage of that... otherwise your just not using the resources you have.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (12 Dec 2017)

lurker":1sh7fnid said:


> Phil,
> 
> I think you will find that there was a gradual increase in the % going to Uni even before we had heard of said clown.
> 
> ...



I believe we went for decades without a government minster who actually had qualifications in the field in which they served - it's almost as if knowing what you are doing is handicap. :lol:


----------



## bertikusmaximus (15 Dec 2017)

Student loans aren't really a 'debt' in the same way that credit cards or loans or mortgages are, and in my opinion shouldn't be considered as such. No mortgage or credit card company have ever really asked about the student loans my wife and I have, and it hasn't prevented us getting a mortgage etc.

It is better to think of it as tax on earnings you pay until a certain age or you pay off the amount you 'borrowed'. Of course, the one caveat is that the payments don't get cancelled if you drop out. For example, say you do one year and borrow £9,000 but then drop out of uni to go and work in a job paying £20,000. That would be over the threshold for repayments you'd begin to be 'taxed', which on a low salary could be problematic.


----------

