# Aquarium support / storage



## miles_hot (2 Mar 2010)

I am going to post up my very first bit of furniture as I have a host of questions and also have enjoyed everyone else's WIPS so time to put something back.

We are going to get our first every fish tank soon (much sooner than I thought thanks to research about just how long it takes to cycle one through to the point where you should put your final fish in! :twisted. The unit to hold this will go in the hall and will replace the existing clutter of circular table (piled high with post, to do items, filing and general rubbish) and shoe rack.

This is what I expect the final unit to look like:




I have done some calculations and the tank will hold around 50 gallons, which is around 225Kg, of water so this unit will be holding over .25 of a tonne! As such I have gone for a substantial frame consisting of mainly 2"x3" timber (initial thoughts are oak however see one of the questions below). The frame members running toward you will be in-filled on both sides with 18mm MDF to provide extra strength, anti racking and somewhere to screw the draw runners into. The MDF is shown as OSB in the sketch up as I don't have an MFD texture!





I have a number of questions:
1) I have chosen Oak as I know it is string however I am a little worried about both availability in planed sections (lacking a t/p) and the cost. Am I correct to target oak or could this be done in soft wood with an Oak lip for the look of it?
2) I am assuming that M&T joints for the elements coming towards me and then housing joints for the items running left and right - does this feel like a good idea and are there any other joints I should think about? I can post some pictures to explain what I mean if it would help...I assume that I don't need to do the draw and peg for the M&T or would this significantly help?
3) The MDF in-fills will be let into a 10mm x 18mm grove around the frame - will the weaken the 2x3 members or will it make little difference? I intend to glue and screw the MDF into place however I suspect that the shape and fit into the grove will provide all the anti racking etc. Would this be right?
3) Will this be strong enough?
4) I have included some bearers to be rested on the floor to spread the load. I suspect these will be a pain as the floor is riven stone and so scribing to it will be a sod. Do I need them or can the legs just go straight onto the floor? The floor is stone over concrete and as there is Under Floor Heating nothing will be fixed to the floor - however anything that touches a wall will be screwed to it.

That's probably enough to be going on with... 

Many thanks for all your help on this one, I think I'm going to need it!

Miles


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## promhandicam (2 Mar 2010)

If you don't have a p/t make the whole thing out of veneered mdf with a solid oak face frame. You can then get away with small easily obtainable sections of oak for the face frame. 19mm mdf would be adequate as long as it was well put together - glue, screws, biscuits etc. 

I did a stand for a 500 litre aquarium out of mdf / ply and it was fine. There is a thread here. Please bare in mind that this was made in Lomé, Togo and so I was fairly limited in what materials I had available. If I were doing it again though, I'd still do the carcase in veneered mdf. The choice is then up to you whether you go for face frame and inset doors / drawers or lay on drawers / doors. 

HTH,

Steve


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## Chems (2 Mar 2010)

I agree with promhandicam, veneered MDF doesn't sound like a bad idea at all specially seen as you only have one show face. Think of all the time you'll save with M+T and the cost of getting the oak planned up. 

Whats the top made out of? As thats going to be holding the weight to spread it across the MDF bottom which will all be screwed to the walls and bits.

The one problem with solid is if it is trapped in up against the wall it wouldn't have toom to expand and contract?


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## miles_hot (2 Mar 2010)

Chems":2pll6cd0 said:


> I agree with promhandicam, veneered MDF doesn't sound like a bad idea at all specially seen as you only have one show face. Think of all the time you'll save with M+T and the cost of getting the oak planned up.
> 
> Whats the top made out of? As thats going to be holding the weight to spread it across the MDF bottom which will all be screwed to the walls and bits.
> 
> The one problem with solid is if it is trapped in up against the wall it wouldn't have toom to expand and contract?



The top will be kitchen work top - beach block stuff. We have it in the kitchen and it's been pretty good - some initial problems caused by rubbish hard wax oil but since I sorted that out god as gold. Doesn't seem to move around too much.

I assume with the MDF Idea i would be making frames out of it with wood edges - a sort of box? If not how would I secure the cross beams to it and hence screw the top to the MDF - or am I just being very thick?

Miles


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## Chems (2 Mar 2010)

I think you don't need a frame, the torsion box design of the whole thing would be strength enough. I wouldn't use veneered mdf thou I'd rather use veneered ply for extra strength.


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## matt (2 Mar 2010)

My cabinet supporting 185 ltrs (so 185kg + gravel etc) is 18mm MDF (including the back) face framed. It's basically a box with two additional verticals. All butt joints, glued and screwed. Remember, moisture is not MDF's friend - I'm very careful!

The other thing to remember is that the tank base cannot bend so massive frames add no strength - the key is a smooth and evenly supported level surface (and I mean level - the waterline, if visible, will give away any slacking in this area  )

Just found a pic (the shelves are not structural - they're just sitting on pegs):






The bigger picture:





And with the tank on top:


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## promhandicam (3 Mar 2010)

In terms of strength if you have a look at commercially available aquarium stands you'll see that there isn't much to them - most are 15 or 18mm MFC. 19mm mdf or ply will be more than adequate particularly if you screw a 19mm thick back on it. One thing I've always done - not sure if it is entirely necessary - is to sit the tank on some thin foam. The stuff that is sold as laminate floor underlay is ideal. what you don't want is to have a point load between the base of the tank and the support.

HTH,

Steve


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## big soft moose (3 Mar 2010)

matt":2g4f8bls said:


> Remember, moisture is not MDF's friend - I'm very careful!



with that in mind you might be better off with MR MDF (the green stuff)

however i would agree with chems higher up who said that if you were making torsion boxes you ought to use ply rather than mdf - the principle of a torsion box (as explained by mr maskery in we3) is that the plywood skin on the bottom cannot stretch , and therefore the top cannot bow - he demonstrates that by sitting on his outfeed table.


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## miles_hot (3 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":cxzsc6ye said:


> matt":cxzsc6ye said:
> 
> 
> > Remember, moisture is not MDF's friend - I'm very careful!
> ...



BSM as I understand from Chems' reply above is that the whole unit is acting as a torsion box - I waas rather expecting to have to make each vertical support a Torsion Box however it think that Chems is saying that the sides, bottom and back (and I guess any top support from the top) will act as a Torsion box negating the need to make each vertical a TB.

I will have a crack at a new design using either some thick ply tonight on sketchup. I am still tending towards having some solid timber beams going left to right under the actual tank to keep the tops of the unit together and provide a straight support for the bottom of the tank in case the ply bends slightly - does this feel like over kill or a sensible addition which will not cause any harm even if it doesn't add much (other than somewhere to screw through to secure the top of course).

many thanks

Miles
PS Does anyone have a favourit veneered ply suppliers?
PPS If I'm going to get into veneer how easy is it to inset a pannel of a different veneer (e.g. birds eye maple) or am I getting horribly over ambicious again?


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## matt (3 Mar 2010)

I'd be tempted to make it out of 18mm board with a single vertical in the centre. You could then create two drawer boxes, once for each side of the vertical, and then attach both to a single drawer front to create the look you've designed.

That said..................... drawers are not that useful when it comes to tank storage - especially if you use an external filter, for example.

And... another thought... Do you have power in this location? You may want to factor in running some power to inside the cupboard (I've used cavity wall boxes for this in the past, providing you leave sufficient clearance behind).


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## Chems (3 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":15nn5r6o said:


> I am still tending towards having some solid timber beams going left to right under the actual tank to keep the tops of the unit together and provide a straight support for the bottom of the tank in case the ply bends slightly - does this feel like over kill or a sensible addition which will not cause any harm even if it doesn't add much (other than somewhere to screw through to secure the top of course).
> 
> PPS If I'm going to get into veneer how easy is it to inset a pannel of a different veneer (e.g. birds eye maple) or am I getting horribly over ambicious again?



I think adding solid timber is overkill, ply is whats used in houses nowdays for flooring as its so strong rather than floorboards in some new builds. Ply is very strong, I used it for the first time last week to build my outfeed and its much stronger on end than MDF which can bow and pull out of shape with a lot of force applied if not supported laterally properly. 


Inlaying into veneered ply would be the same as any other inlay. I bought the trend inlay kit A to do a rose into a top and it worked really well, surprisingly easy you can see it here


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## promhandicam (3 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":l290d9sl said:


> . . . I am still tending towards having some solid timber beams going left to right under the actual tank . . . does this feel like over kill? . . . .



Yes. 

This cabinet is for an aquarium weighing double the one you are planning on setting up. 






Although an aquarium once full is heavy the load is evenly distributed and so the top can be quite thin as long as it is will supported. As an indication, your aquarium will probably only be made from 6mm glass. 

Steve


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## OPJ (3 Mar 2010)

Chems":2qroxwsn said:


> I think adding solid timber is overkill...



I'd mostly agree with that. The main exception being that you may want to hide the plywood edges with solid timber lippings (don't even think about the iron-on stuff!). :wink:


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## miles_hot (3 Mar 2010)

OK nearing the completion of the re-design using 18mm Ply with oak edgings. Burning question now is given the riven stone floor should I

1) Put the ply edges straight onto the floor - possibly a scribing nightmare?
2) Put some bearers down to take out the unevenness of the floor - shimmed up with wedges to ensure that they are even
3) Put little feet along the bottom of the ply - say every foot which can be adjusted individually until all level with each other and then rest the ply on these

Many thanks!

Miles


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## Chems (3 Mar 2010)

If you laid it straight on it may just hover/wobble between 2 high points. Some sort of base like someone did recently for a new floor in there under cupboard area.


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## miles_hot (4 Mar 2010)

OK, new frame design (sorry Chems I didn't see your response so I will adjust the design to include a frame - at least I will be getting faster at SU!) - do you think that I need timbers under all 4 vertical elements (I suspect so) and then join them with timbers designed no to touch the floor (limiting the amount that I have to mess with wedges and scribing etc?




Points on new frame:
18mm Ply
Lipped with 20mm oak
floor also 18mm Ply with liping
Top secured by two spans of 18mm Ply (front lipped) to ensure that 1) the verticals don't wobble when the top is being out on and 2) there is something other than the top to hold stuff in position and 3) I have something to screw to the top.
Sides scribed to the wall
Top could still be kitchen work top or I could make in from Ply (more than 18mm though I think) with a oak lipping.

Where can I get some decent wood textures to apply? I'd like to see what this would look like in Oak and then with some veneer inlays on the doors (maybe Burr oak or birds eye maple etc.





One of the sides will be a full height cupboard as the filter will take up the full vertical space available - I will need to sort out what else will need to go in there before deciding if all the kit can fit on one side leaving the rest free for storage...

Your thoughts?

Many thanks

Miles


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## matt (4 Mar 2010)

Where does the tank sit in relation to the uprights? What you wil notice about commercially available stands is that they support the tank evenly.


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## miles_hot (4 Mar 2010)

matt":3jkhh9n4 said:


> Where does the tank sit in relation to the uprights? What you wil notice about commercially available stands is that they support the tank evenly.



The tank nessles into the window and so the left and right walls sit directly above the middle uprights. The back is supported by the rear vertical member (possibly sitting a little in front of the actual member). 





In the original frame design the middle left right wooden strut was supporting the front of the tank however this has been removed based on the comments on this thread.

Miles


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## miles_hot (5 Mar 2010)

As suggested by Chems I am going to have a base in place to put the unit down onto. Scribing 4 bearers to the floor will be a royal pain - I can't see that having a set of feet, say every 12", would be a problem however before I do this I'd like some confirmation  

Many thanks

Miles


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## matt (5 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":ehy8pt02 said:


> As suggested by Chems I am going to have a base in place to put the unit down onto. Scribing 4 bearers to the floor will be a royal pain - I can't see that having a set of feet, say every 12", would be a problem however before I do this I'd like some confirmation
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> Miles



I had a base in place made from 18mm board, simply screwed together. It was levelled using spacers before having the cabinet placed on top and the plinth front fixed on. Feet should be fine though (a damn site easier to level than using spacers!) Just make sure they can take the weight.

My only other thought... Make sure you position feet at the main load bearing points (i.e. where the weight of the tank is being conveyed down through the verticals of the cabinet). I'd use these ones for levelling too and then use the others to simply kiss the floor.


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## miles_hot (7 Mar 2010)

I am trying to design the draws for the unit and I think I've got most of it sorted out however I hope you can help me with a question I have...

I am using blum Tandem - side mounted in the cabinet and fixing to the base of the draw. I'm pretty sure that I've got that bot sorted out.

The sides will be 12mm ply (oak faced?) with 12mm square edging for neatness. This will also allow me to rebate across the top of the edging at the bottom all the way along with no need for a stopped rebate (can provide a picture of this is this makes no sense).

My problem comes at the front of the draw. I am planning on using 18mm ply for the fronts (no real reason other that that's what the frame is made out of) but retaining the 12mm edging. This gives rise to the mismatch of edgings shown below:



My questions are:
1) Should I be producing a box of equal height all around and then adding the face of the draw to that - however I am concerned that this will just result in a clunky look to the front by having a front which is only 7mm higher than the draw box
2) Should I increase the edging on the draw front to 18mm (in keeping with the "square edging" theme? With this sort of thickness of edging will I run into issues with the wood moving in relation to the stable ply? Will it "look" right - I know this is very subjective however there is such a body of experience here that maybe I would be committing some sort of silly person error  This is how the draw will look from the side:



This is the look from the front (note the spacing of the draws is only to allow me to easily modify stuff:




Many thanks

Miles


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## Chems (7 Mar 2010)

Seems to me using veneered stuff for the draw sides and lipping them would be a lot of work. 

If I made an Oak cabinet I'd use a light colour softwood for the drawers, in my case I'd use Pine as I can buy it in big sheets very cheaply. Makes for lovely drawers like here:

Walnut front edge but sides and main face are pine. 




I buy mine from Build Centre which is a UK chain, find your nearest and ask for pine laminated boards 2.4m by 600 an I pay about £16-18 a board.

I'd still use Oak Veneer for the front and lip them. 

HTH!


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## OPJ (7 Mar 2010)

Chems":o4nexilp said:


> If I made an Oak cabinet I'd use a light colour softwood for the drawers, in my case I'd use Pine as I can buy it in big sheets very cheaply.



Pine may provide a nice contrast but there are many other better choices available, particularly if these drawers are going to get frequent use! Sycamore or maple would be better, in my opinion, as pine is neither hard-wearing or as stable, by comparison. If you're going to the effort of making the rest of the unit from oak then, why settle for pine (unless you're working to a very strict budget?).


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## miles_hot (7 Mar 2010)

OPJ":3fes1uub said:


> Chems":3fes1uub said:
> 
> 
> > If I made an Oak cabinet I'd use a light colour softwood for the drawers, in my case I'd use Pine as I can buy it in big sheets very cheaply.
> ...



Budget is important but not a limiting factor. The rest of the unit will be the Oak faced ply - hence the choice of the same stuff for the draw sides.

Miles


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## miles_hot (8 Mar 2010)

Well, some actual work has been done! 





The base members were cut to size (managed to find some 40x45mm oak in the garage). 





Having managed to work out the amount to project past the blade to be able to get the exact length I wanted I managed to cut all but one of the lengths right - the one I got wrong I had a senior moment on and read 37 for 27 and cut it (very precisely) 10mm to short. No matter - I ripped the tongue and grove off some oak floor boards and laminated the resulting boards together to make a beam.





The next thing was to shim up the little feet (also made from floor boards) to take out the uneven nature of the floor. First of all I attempted to take of small slices using the bandsaw, but the blade just wandered and it was too hard to keep the stick of wood at 90 degrees. Then I used the table saw and correctly calculated the amount the stick would have to stick out and cut the sliver - only to watch it fall into the guts of the saw as I can't have a zero clearance set up :evil: Finally I dropped the blade a little so that I was only trenching out rather than cutting and managed to cut a stack of shims 0.6 - 2 mm:




I worked from the left hand side using the shims to raise the front and back of each support up and the plane to drop it down referencing the beam to the left to ensure that all was level. Sadly, last thing at night, I managed to find a straight edge long enough to span the left to right but not foul the wall and discovered about some reasonable light coming under the edge over one of the beams. I put this down to the fact that I am dealing with a bubble rather than something that is vert accurate. To get over this I am investigating a digital level - I'll let you know how I get on when it arrives. Gutted but I can't afford for this thing not to be level as it will have a very visible tank of water showing up any sloppiness! Also concerned that that 1mm difference could cause a lot of stress on the elements left and right of the beam hanging in the air. Goodness knows if I'm being stupidly paranoid though!

I have sent of a bunch of emails to some of the ply suppliers to see what it will cost and when they can deliver, I have also asked Winwood about their bur oak panels as Waka had good things to say about the stuff they did for his tool cabinet. Hopefully I'll be able to order the ply in the next 24 hours and work on the frame next weekend. The new tool should be coming before that so the base will be ready for the frame after the weekend.

Any hints and tips gratefully received 

Miles


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## Chems (8 Mar 2010)

I would save your money on the digital level and buy a bag of self leveling compound and pour it into that space, put something along the front that can eventually be covered by your plinth. 

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?a ... =350176943


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## miles_hot (8 Mar 2010)

Chems":3agu317k said:


> I would save your money on the digital level and buy a bag of self leveling compound and pour it into that space, put something along the front that can eventually be covered by your plinth.
> 
> http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?a ... =350176943



Very pragmatic but I fear this will not go down well - the floor isn't even 4 years old and this tank may not be permanent where as the stone floor will be 

Miles


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## Setch (8 Mar 2010)

Are you sure a fishtank in front of a window is a good idea?

IIRC sun shining through the window can cause problems with regulating water temp, and the light can cause out of control algee growth, so your glass ends up covered in green gunk.

I'm not certain about this, but I'm pretty sure it was a factor when choosing a spot for my brothers fish tank, and at the very least you'll need an opaque backing behind the tank to screen the back from direct light.

I could be wrong, but I'd recommend checking with an experienced party before you get much further along.


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## matt (8 Mar 2010)

I would make a plinth that sits in the space. Then pop your level on it, use spacers to level at the points directly below the verticals in your design. Once you're happy pop some further spacers that are a hairs width smaller than the space at intervals to handle any potential deflection. Trying to level lots of individual pieces it likely to send you mad.


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## miles_hot (8 Mar 2010)

Setch":2ybfmavf said:


> Are you sure a fishtank in front of a window is a good idea?
> 
> IIRC sun shining through the window can cause problems with regulating water temp, and the light can cause out of control algee growth, so your glass ends up covered in green gunk.
> 
> ...


You are right and hence I will be getting a tank with at least an opaque back and I may consider boarding the window to the height of the tank (will see what can be done with the tank before doing that).

Hopefully I can get away with it however this is the only real location for the tank in the house so I'll have to give it my best shot 

Miles


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## big soft moose (8 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":l9ldzebd said:


> The next thing was to shim up the little feet (also made from floor boards) to take out the uneven nature of the floor. First of all I attempted to take of small slices using the bandsaw, but the blade just wandered and it was too hard to keep the stick of wood at 90 degrees. Then I used the table saw and correctly calculated the amount the stick would have to stick out and cut the sliver - only to watch it fall into the guts of the saw as I can't have a zero clearance set up :evil: Finally I dropped the blade a little so that I was only trenching out rather than cutting and managed to cut a stack of shims 0.6 - 2 mm:



cant help noticing that you are cutting you shims off the end grain - hence your problems in keeping it at 90 deg - for future reference it is easier to rip one long 2mm thick bit off the side grain using your bandsaw - running the wood against the fence to stop wander (if its wandering a lot either the blade tracking isnt right , the blade is too loose, or the blade is blunt - refer to W.E 4 for more detail )

then cut the resulting 2mm thick "plank" into squares using either the tablesaw and mitre fence or just by hand.


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## Chems (8 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":3cfy9yed said:


> Chems":3cfy9yed said:
> 
> 
> > I would save your money on the digital level and buy a bag of self leveling compound and pour it into that space, put something along the front that can eventually be covered by your plinth.
> ...



Yes that could become an issue!


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## miles_hot (8 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":1ehs4riz said:


> miles_hot":1ehs4riz said:
> 
> 
> > The next thing was to shim up the little feet (also made from floor boards) to take out the uneven nature of the floor. First of all I attempted to take of small slices using the bandsaw, but the blade just wandered and it was too hard to keep the stick of wood at 90 degrees. Then I used the table saw and correctly calculated the amount the stick would have to stick out and cut the sliver - only to watch it fall into the guts of the saw as I can't have a zero clearance set up :evil: Finally I dropped the blade a little so that I was only trenching out rather than cutting and managed to cut a stack of shims 0.6 - 2 mm:
> ...



True - good point, thanks. I got fixated on the fact that the wood was the same dimension and that this method allowed a number of them to be produced of different sizes quickly. Dumb really :roll: 

Miles


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## miles_hot (9 Mar 2010)

At the moment the design is using ply faced with Oak veneer on both sides. One supplier is able to do this for the frame (18mm) elements but the draw sides can only be faced on one side with oak. Is there a convention for putting that side facing inside the draw (the most viewed in use) or the outside (as you can see it when you have the draw open where as the inner surface is obscured by clutter)?

Many thanks

Miles


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## Chems (9 Mar 2010)

I think it will look totally pants with veneered sides. Honestly get some nice pine, I know people say its not hardwaring but I've got pine furniture in my house that has been here for 15+ years an no sign of wear and tear.


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## miles_hot (9 Mar 2010)

Chems":puyoocsr said:


> I think it will look totally pants with veneered sides. Honestly get some nice pine, I know people say its not hardwaring but I've got pine furniture in my house that has been here for 15+ years an no sign of wear and tear.



Why do you feel this? I would have thought that veneered sides with the same wood as a capping wouldn't look pants but then I've never done this stuff before so I am very interested to know why you say this.

There's also a part of me that worries about real wood's movements as I've never made furniture before  

Miles


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## Chems (9 Mar 2010)

Well if you were to cap all the sides it wouldn't be so bad but it still wouldn't be great looking. Maybe done one to see how it looks?


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## big soft moose (9 Mar 2010)

Chems":3qhslfmc said:


> Well if you were to cap all the sides it wouldn't be so bad but it still wouldn't be great looking. Maybe done one to see how it looks?



if you look at a lot of the furniture that, (for example) brad, builds its veneered mdf with solid wood lipping , and it looks okay


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## miles_hot (9 Mar 2010)

Chems":3a3mv5xd said:


> Well if you were to cap all the sides it wouldn't be so bad but it still wouldn't be great looking. Maybe done one to see how it looks?



I will be capping the top (and bottom) of the ply. The difficulty is that to try it out I first need to buy the ply...

Miles


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## big soft moose (9 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":2l29c9jn said:


> Chems":2l29c9jn said:
> 
> 
> > Well if you were to cap all the sides it wouldn't be so bad but it still wouldn't be great looking. Maybe done one to see how it looks?
> ...



these units (by Karl) are 18mm veneered mdf with oak lipping







IMO they look fine - in fact if you didnt know one might think they were solid wood. (see karls thread "oak kitchen makeover" for procedure etc)

btw remember that as well as top and bottom you need to cap the front side - actually you dont need to do the bottom because no one can see it


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## Chems (9 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":2nj4ub3u said:


> Chems":2nj4ub3u said:
> 
> 
> > Well if you were to cap all the sides it wouldn't be so bad but it still wouldn't be great looking. Maybe done one to see how it looks?
> ...



Try it out on any 18mm scrap you have with any bit of solid wood you have. 

A Festool MK700 is the tool you need :twisted:


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## miles_hot (9 Mar 2010)

Well, used by new toy, sorry precision tool and got the whole thing level in both planes  yeh ha, I'm a happy bunny.



 



Love the look of it too - now all I have to do is convince people that they want to buy me the 60cm one as well as this one is too long to fit into some of the tight spaces and I'm not sure I can go back to the old tech bubble  

Now all I have to do is work out how the heck I'm going to fix all the little shims in place  I'm thinking screws with holes drilled through the shim to avoid it splitting as I screw threw.

Ah well - little things to amuse me as I find out the cost of the ply etc - current strong contenders are Lanthams as they were quick off the draw, reasonably priced and actually have the stuff. The Draw fronts will probably come from Winwood as they have been very helpful (thank you Waka for the pointer all those months ago) and I think the panels will look great (very much an indulgence though - a good argument for getting into veneering!).

Miles


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## matt (9 Mar 2010)

Slight deviation...
Cichlids being good parents and guarding over their brood (well the eggs that are in that cave): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLYQiMBayH4


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## big soft moose (9 Mar 2010)

miles_hot":1kvlfh0w said:


> Now all I have to do is work out how the heck I'm going to fix all the little shims in place  I'm thinking screws with holes drilled through the shim to avoid it splitting as I screw threw.


I'd suggest glue - no nails or similar


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## miles_hot (9 Mar 2010)

big soft moose":oikpoat3 said:


> miles_hot":oikpoat3 said:
> 
> 
> > Now all I have to do is work out how the heck I'm going to fix all the little shims in place  I'm thinking screws with holes drilled through the shim to avoid it splitting as I screw threw.
> ...


The only thing I thought of there was that this will have a thickness - I remember reading on the veneering book that when working out the thickness of the panel you have to allow for the glue (given that some of my shims are 0.6mm thick and there is a variable number of them)...

Miles


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## miles_hot (9 Mar 2010)

matt":1nfzprjk said:


> Slight deviation...
> Cichlids being good parents and guarding over their brood (well the eggs that are in that cave): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLYQiMBayH4


I see why you like keeping them  I think that they're not that great in a mixed community tank or am I wrong on that one?

Miles


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## matt (10 Mar 2010)

Kribensis in particular are usually ok if you limit it to a male and female (or more females to males and you're prepared to take out the females that don't pair with the male if they become a persistent target). They can be a little spikey but tend to direct it at other cichlids. Even then they chase a little and then just stop and carry on about their busines. By comparison to, Angelfish (another cichlid and often touted community fish) they are less grumpy. I also have Keyhole cichlids in the same tank and other community fish. The Keyholes are even less grumpy than the Kribensis. By contrast... many other cichlids are NOT suitable for community tanks. 

Personally I've found that a little, well balanced, territorialism is a good thing for a tank.


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## miles_hot (11 Mar 2010)

matt":3owsvffb said:


> Kribensis in particular are usually ok if you limit it to a male and female (or more females to males and you're prepared to take out the females that don't pair with the male if they become a persistent target). They can be a little spikey but tend to direct it at other cichlids. Even then they chase a little and then just stop and carry on about their busines. By comparison to, Angelfish (another cichlid and often touted community fish) they are less grumpy. I also have Keyhole cichlids in the same tank and other community fish. The Keyholes are even less grumpy than the Kribensis. By contrast... many other cichlids are NOT suitable for community tanks.
> 
> Personally I've found that a little, well balanced, territorialism is a good thing for a tank.



Something to bear in mind when we get to the good bit of choosing fish - in, oh about 2 months 
Miles


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## rocksteadyeddy (11 Mar 2010)

Just a note but i've just had a quick browse through the post and should mention you only need foam under the tank if its flat bottomed which will be the case if its a custom size but if its of the shelf tank then it will probably have a trim round the bottom the tank sits on ( a floating base ) in which case the foam can cause problems. 
Being a new member and a relative novice to woodwork nice to find a post I may have some incite into having worked in the aquarium trade for 10 years or so, its nice to feel useful!  

If it helps, your plans look more than strong enough to me having seen some of the ridiculously flimsy looking stand companies sell with there aquariums I would say yours will easily take the weight. If you can I would definitely stick clear of mdf though.

Hope some help, mad me feel better! :lol: good luck!


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## miles_hot (11 Mar 2010)

rocksteadyeddy":qui01nfh said:


> Just a note but i've just had a quick browse through the post and should mention you only need foam under the tank if its flat bottomed which will be the case if its a custom size but if its of the shelf tank then it will probably have a trim round the bottom the tank sits on ( a floating base ) in which case the foam can cause problems.
> Being a new member and a relative novice to woodwork nice to find a post I may have some incite into having worked in the aquarium trade for 10 years or so, its nice to feel useful!
> 
> If it helps, your plans look more than strong enough to me having seen some of the ridiculously flimsy looking stand companies sell with there aquariums I would say yours will easily take the weight. If you can I would definitely stick clear of mdf though.
> ...


Many thanks for that - very helpful to know that you think that the unit will be strong enough  I'm a little confused on the foam /polystyrene bit - with a custom tank will I need one or not (I think from your post that I will, but thought I'd check).

Any other tips gratefully received being a bit of a novice at wood work and a total novice at fish work 

Miles


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## matt (11 Mar 2010)

You don't normally need a foam/polystyrene layer with a framed tank because the glass base is lifted off the cabinet surface by the frame. If, however, the glass base is in contact with the surface then the foam/polystyrene ensures the base is not subject to any undulations in the surface which set up stresses in the glass and usually cause it to crack - sometimes months of even years later.


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## rocksteadyeddy (11 Mar 2010)

Sorry, in answer to your question, yes with a custom made tank you will need to use foam, or polystyrene. It is unlikely it will come with a tray (as before mentioned - floating base - the whole tank sits on a plastic trim all the way round keeping it floating by 8-10mm of the top of your unit) If you haven't had the tank made yet ask them for the base to be made double thickness if they don't as standard that way you shouldn't have any problems at all.
I was thinking afterwards my tank is approx 60-70 gal and the unit thats been sat on for the past 5 years is really only three box section columns made from (I know what I said! :roll: ) 16mm MDF witch are about 16" x 4", with a piece of 16mm ply sat on top! id post a picture but the tank looks a state and what can I say..... I'm embarrassed!!  

Oh and I meant to say "you better start stocking up on algae pads now!!" :lol: :lol: Or you could go marine they like the sunlight but you would probably need a chiller unit.

Keep up the good work!


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## miles_hot (17 Mar 2010)

Update 

The ply turned up today - excellent speed of service from Lathams as well as very patient with my questions. The 18mm oak both sides ply looks lovely - I'm already sorting out which bit will go on the top surface 

I have some concerns about the 12mm and 6mm which I hope you can help with:

1) the 12mm ply (oak on one face and balancing veneer on the other) has what seem to me to be pretty big patches on the back - 2 very obvious ones being 15"x5" and 28"x9". They're not an especially good match to the surrounding area and seem to have staining from the tape I assume was used to hold them in place


 

 



2) the 6mm sheet appears pretty bent - when I propped it gently against an 18mm sheet of MDF it touched at either end of the 8' run but was nearly 3" off the MDF in the middle. It also sort of popped into and out of position as the side which was on the floor moved around. 


 



My questions are:
Assuming that the 12mm board is actually a BB grade (Shaun rang me up on Monday to confirm the order and I _thought_ he said it was a B grade however it is entirely possible he actually said BB) is that sort of size patch normal? If so how the hell do I deal with it and allow my draw sides to look OK (assuming I can't avoid at least some of the patches - which I don't think I've got a hope of doing

Is the degree of warping in the 6mm normal and if so how do I deal with it? If not I assume I just ask them to collect it and bring me a better bit?

Many thanks

Miles


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## big soft moose (17 Mar 2010)

on the second - that degree of warping is regretably common but it doesnt mean its acceptable - they contracted to supply you with undamaged goodsand you should definitely ask for a replacement.

with the former - if you are making drawsides can you work arround the patch so that it is in the "waste" ? - failing that i'd return that as well and ask for a better grade


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## miles_hot (7 Apr 2010)

OK - long over due progress is being made now 

I screwed some oak to a gash bit of ply from a previous project and attempted to route it off flush. 

As I only have the fixing screws that allow me to attach the router to the metal base for use in a router table I am rather constrained to rather thin material for the based of the trimmer jig - in this case 4mm handboard. To stiffen things up I screwed a oak 1cm x1cm strip:



I initially made the cut out far to small and had trouble getting onto the edging strip:



However having widened that it sort of worked in that the edge was nice and flush with the edge of the ply but because I could feel it slightly bouncing it left marks on the edge:



I need to invest in longer screws - anyone know if the axminster kitcontains the longer screws I need to attach to the dewalt as I am a little unsure what size screws it is using?

more updates after my last day with the current client (and a lack of role to go to - anyone need a really good project planner / manager?) will mean that progress should be swift now 

Miles


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## big soft moose (7 Apr 2010)

what you need mate is a router table - i'll bring that top over in the next few days but you'll still need a phenolic plate


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## Chems (7 Apr 2010)

When you said Dewalt did you mean the Triton? Cause if you did I fix the triton to my table and have done for over 2 years with the supplied quick release bolts which are just M6 bolts if I remember correctly. 

A bit of sanding should bring out those "bounce" marks if your careful. Don't worry about the bending of the 6mm stuff, it will be fine once you put it in the drawer bottoms.


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## big soft moose (7 Apr 2010)

Chems":64srw1ai said:


> When you said Dewalt did you mean the Triton? .



huh :duno:

i would imagine he meant dewalt as thats definitely a dewalt in the picture


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## Chems (7 Apr 2010)

That was weird I thought the picture was a triton when I looked at it. Never mind me!


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## miles_hot (7 Apr 2010)

Chems":2j73zouu said:


> When you said Dewalt did you mean the Triton? Cause if you did I fix the triton to my table and have done for over 2 years with the supplied quick release bolts which are just M6 bolts if I remember correctly.
> 
> A bit of sanding should bring out those "bounce" marks if your careful. Don't worry about the bending of the 6mm stuff, it will be fine once you put it in the drawer bottoms.



The thing about sanding is that the ply is exactly at the level of the edging and I worry that sanding the marks out might stuff the ply. I'd prefer to minimise the bounce and then deal with any smaller marks...

Miles


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## miles_hot (7 Apr 2010)

So, having failed on the edge trimming thing I thought I'd deal with the next vital ingredient - the cutting guide for the router

As you can see my current straight edge is rather over endowed when cutting across the board, I also want to be able to reference the edge of the component rather than measure x cm off from the line.



I am using a trend up cutting shear cutter and was a little surprised at the amount of feathering I got off the first cut (which will form the guide for the router). A little work with a very blunt and poorly set plane sorted the feathers out without impacting on the straightness.


 


So now I've got the straight edge I need to screw it onto the bas board and then cut out the reference edge. To do this I set the router to the depth of the sacrificial MDF cutting surface with a thin bracket between the router turret and the depth stop. This means that once the bracket was removed the actual cut went 1.45mm into the MDF surface.


 

 

 



This resulted in a rather nicer cut straight off the board:



So now the jig is correctly set up but still attached to the 4x6' board which would make it rather unwieldy  Next job is to part it from the main board. I figured I'd be a cleaver clogs and use a different router to do this - I nice thin one so that I had a fine cut capability if I needed the thread the cut into a tight space. Sadly I manage to snap the cutter - nothing spectacular, it just came off during the first cut (set up the same way as the up cut one) - must be a basic user error, I guess I was taking too big a cut but I thought it would be able to handle 5mm or so.


 



Retreating from that Idea I just used the up cutter to part off the jig from the main board and the cut I get from it is great - it only needs a couple of wipes with 320 on a stiff board to get rid of the slight ridges from the router (why am I getting this - am I feeding too fast?)


 



Very pleased - this evening's job is to mark up all the components on one of the sheets ready to be cut out tomorrow.

Miles


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## big soft moose (7 Apr 2010)

miles_hot":2znzmul6 said:


> A little work with a very blunt and poorly set plane sorted the feathers out without impacting on the straightness.



I hope you arent talking about my no.7 mate  - that blade was new :shock:


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## miles_hot (7 Apr 2010)

big soft moose":r0hw7gc8 said:


> miles_hot":r0hw7gc8 said:
> 
> 
> > A little work with a very blunt and poorly set plane sorted the feathers out without impacting on the straightness.
> ...


god no - some cheep draper block plane that I have knocking around which can be relied on not to take too much off in my ham fisted hands! 

Miles


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## big soft moose (7 Apr 2010)

miles_hot":tyutmw3t said:


> big soft moose":tyutmw3t said:
> 
> 
> > miles_hot":tyutmw3t said:
> ...



so use the no.7 you know it makes sense ( if you set it to just take a teeny shaving it wont take too much off )
also a big ass plane like a 7 is less likely to dig into an edge on account of its longer sole.

However if you want to use a block plane ive got a spare Record you can borrow ( I got two nas part of a bundle deal IIRC ) - the best thing to do with a draper block plane is use it as a doorstop !

all that not withstanding i find the best way to clean up feathers on ply is with a sanding block and some 240g


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## miles_hot (8 Apr 2010)

AHHHHHH!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :evil: 

There isn't a square corner on this ply sheet - I had expected to be able to find at lest one to act as a datum point! Sod it. marking out is now dependent on me making a datum point.

Sorry just had to vent - I was stupidly expecting to be able to use the factory cut as a "superior cut' and hence trust it to be square in at least some point.

pipper.

Miles


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## big soft moose (8 Apr 2010)

miles_hot":uq83fpo9 said:


> AHHHHHH!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :evil:
> 
> There isn't a square corner on this ply sheet - I had expected to be able to find at lest one to act as a datum point! Sod it. marking out is now dependent on me making a datum point.
> 
> ...



thats usual - big vertical panels saws just arent that accurate

check all the edges for straightness and assuming you can find one use that as a datum edge for your marking out

cutting at 90 deg shouldnt be a problem with that big ass table saw you've got - especially if you use the sliding table (note thogh that the finish from the table saw wont be great with high probability of breakout so you probably need to cut outside the line and either plane down or trim down with the B/S later)


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## miles_hot (9 Apr 2010)

Made slow progress yesterday - as can be seen by my "venting" message I spent the morning marking out half of the 1st board only to find that upon checking that many of the items marked out did not have opposite lengths the same. This really confused me until I strapped a straight edge to each edge and found that none of them were straight nor were any of the corners square. DUH! :twisted: School boy error not to have checked and assumed that as the factory has a far better saw than I do it would be accurate!

After rubbing out all my markings - which now had all the relevance to a fish tank as some primitive cave art - I went and had a sit down

I also started to worry that this would mean that my guide could be carrying inaccuracies - maybe I had swapped the timber length that I cut off over and hence I would be using a poor straight edge I built a mark II using an old trend clamp guide which had lost it's clamping ability



The nice thing thing about these router guides is that not only do you line up the cut edge with the line (the expected benefit) but you can also screw through them into waste areas when you can't get a clamp onto the end of them and you can screw stop blocks in to limit the amount of travel - stopping the cut crossing into another component on the sheet.


 



So having made this I then set about making a straight edge - ripping 2mm off one of the 8' edges




I then forgot to take any more pictures for the day! Having got a straight edge I then created a right angle, took all my measurements from that and cut out the components for that board making only one mistake when I cut the wrong side of a line - a design challenge I will solve in the future!

A friend came over to help move the next sheet into position and I will get to that later today when I have collected my car from the mechanics and had a sit down at the cost  I'm quite pleased at the fact that progress is being made but it feels so slow and is bad breaking work as I'm at the wrong height and I suspect pretty tense for much of the time. I'm sure this will get better as I get more experience and I suspect more kit (track saw would be nice to avoid having to take 3-6 passes for each cut).

My first cuts had fairly good break out at the exposed ends which I now avoid by taking an initial "wrong way" pass for 0.5 - 1 inches at the exposed end (hence possibly 6 cuts).

Miles


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## big soft moose (9 Apr 2010)

miles_hot":204povou said:


> (track saw would be nice to avoid having to take 3-6 passes for each cut).



guess what ive got taking up room in my workshop , waiting on the work 'shop move.

I'll chuck it in the car nand see you in a bit - you'll note from the time of posting that i'm running late (we went to the garden centre this morning, and i think my credit card may be about to explode  )


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## miles_hot (16 Apr 2010)

BSM kindly loaned me a dewalt track saw (following my recent comment) - huge thanks and a real vision of what should be in terms of converting the sheet material!

Sadly the cut is not all it should be:


 


I think that this is caused by the rubber on the track edge not lining up with the cut


 


So it was back to the router method again, and boy did I mess up today!


 


The first time this happened I just put it down to user error - failing to tighten the clap enough. The next time it happened I realised that one of the clamp heads was missing the rubber protector bit - this has not been an issue the whole time but I guess that it has just polished the guide enough to become an issue. To overcome this I glued some rubber matting used in tool boxes to the clamp and had no further slippage.

Whilst I got lucky in terms of the location of the slippage - bottom of the sides and out of sight I may go back and remove the problem bit and replace with a solid bit of wood as I'm a little concerned that the weight of the tank will now be taken by something that is missing 1/3 of the thickness....

Only one more component to go, though the top will need to be cut to shape and scribed to the wall. Next step will be the edging strips...

Miles


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## matt (16 Apr 2010)

I'm being lazy and not reading the whole thread... Can this be summarised as trying to find a way to cut ply without breakout?

If yes, then have you tried scoring the cut line with a blade? Also, when using the circular saw, try to ensure the blade only protrudes below the board just enough to cut it.

If no, then ignore the above


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## miles_hot (16 Apr 2010)

matt":qubil0l9 said:


> I'm being lazy and not reading the whole thread... Can this be summarised as trying to find a way to cut ply without breakout?
> 
> If yes, then have you tried scoring the cut line with a blade? Also, when using the circular saw, try to ensure the blade only protrudes below the board just enough to cut it.
> 
> If no, then ignore the above



Matt, I have found a way - using a router with a shop made guide and cutting 1-2mm into the supporting board. The only down side of this is the shear time it takes (3-6 cuts per edge of each component). I didn't try the knife thing but I did have the blade cutting 1-2 mm into the MDF base on which I have the sheet resting.

I am looking to see if I can replace the rubber anti splinter strips on BSM's saw to see if this solves the issue, not least as frankly it is sooo much nicer to use than the router and I want to see if it is possible to sort out before I commit to buying a track saw in future.

Miles


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## big soft moose (16 Apr 2010)

miles_hot":rwbt1m2g said:


> [
> 
> I am looking to see if I can replace the rubber anti splinter strips on BSM's saw to see if this solves the issue, not least as frankly it is sooo much nicer to use than the router and I want to see if it is possible to sort out before I commit to buying a track saw in future.
> 
> Miles



ive never noticed breakout being a big problem with that tracksaw, but then we arent normally cutting veneered ply.

also we've got a fairly savage blade in that saw, one with more teeth would give a finer finish (if you want to buy a replacement keep the receipt and i'll claim it back and we'll keep the blade when you're done)

what you could do would be to stick a line of tape (duct/parcel/masking) etc along the cut then draw the line on top of that. (note dont use carpet tape as it sticks so feircely it lefts the veneer when you peel it off)

another option would be to take one pass with the router then run the tracksaw along the routered cut


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## miles_hot (16 Apr 2010)

big soft moose":27z1x3ri said:


> ive never noticed breakout being a big problem with that tracksaw, but then we arent normally cutting veneered ply.
> 
> also we've got a fairly savage blade in that saw, one with more teeth would give a finer finish (if you want to buy a replacement keep the receipt and i'll claim it back and we'll keep the blade when you're done)
> 
> ...



I'm happy to buy a new blade - anyone got any recommendations for brands other than my default of Frued?

I'll give the sticking tape a go (I've already ordered some replacement edging as I found some for late teens) however I'll pass on the routing idea as that would be two set ups.

I have to say that the track saw is sooo much nicer to use than the router! 

Miles


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## big soft moose (16 Apr 2010)

miles_hot":3bk3gl84 said:


> big soft moose":3bk3gl84 said:
> 
> 
> > ive never noticed breakout being a big problem with that tracksaw, but then we arent normally cutting veneered ply.
> ...



CMT (which axminster amongst others sell) are the other usual suspect.

the other thing you can do is stick a stip of lino/hardboard/mdf or whatever to the underneath of the track with doublesided tape - if you make it oversize then run the saw down the whole length of the track it ought to give you an edge which lines up exactly with the cut.

the downsides are that a) it will make the track/wood contact more slidy - not a problem as you have the clamps, and b) it reduces the depth of cut - again not an issue given that you are only cutting 18mm ply and the saw plunges to 55mm


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## OPJ (16 Apr 2010)

Miles, have a look at the Atkinson Walker saw blades as sold by Workshop Heaven. I'm currently playing with one of their Industrial blades in my mitre saw (it's awesome! 8)) but Matthew says their ProTrade range is comparable to the quality of Freud's. Yet, they're generally much cheaper and, depending on the blade diameter, you may also find a greater variety of fine-toothed blades available (on the smaller blades, Freud generally seem to stop at 40t, which is a 'general-purpose' configuration, really).

CMT blades are very good and comparable to the industrial quality blades. However, for one-off or occasional use, they are rather expensive!


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## cutting solutions (5 May 2010)

Hi Miles.
Thanks for the pointer to your problem.
First thing.
The picture of the broken router cutter shows a lot of wear around the shank. that is not good. It can be indicative of the wrong size collet for the shank or a worn collet. or could be the bearings are on their way out. That could have had something to do with the breakage. also an "upcut cutter" should be used to get a clean finish on the bottom (underside) of the material. you may have an issue with waste being pushed down into the cut with a downcut cutter. for ply you need really sharp cutters.

Second.
The saw.
as many teeth as you can get and I would suggest using a severe negative hook alternate bevel. Not widely available. Let me know the size (diameter and bore size) and I will see if one is available from my range.

Doug


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## miles_hot (5 May 2010)

cutting solutions":m2nf32tq said:


> Hi Miles.
> Thanks for the pointer to your problem.
> First thing.
> The picture of the broken router cutter shows a lot of wear around the shank. that is not good. It can be indicative of the wrong size collet for the shank or a worn collet. or could be the bearings are on their way out. That could have had something to do with the breakage. also an "upcut cutter" should be used to get a clean finish on the bottom (underside) of the material. you may have an issue with waste being pushed down into the cut with a downcut cutter. for ply you need really sharp cutters.
> ...



Hi Doug

The broken cutter was fresh from the trend selection box and had never been used. The total cut length was as shown - about 20 cm tops.

The cutter issue that I may have is with the trimming of the edging to be flush with the ply - do you want me to isolate the pictures concerned?

In terms of the saw I may have a solution with Workshop Heaven however if that doesn't work I'll chuck it at you 

Miles


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## cutting solutions (5 May 2010)

The broken cutter was fresh from the trend selection box and had never been used. The total cut length was as shown - about 20 cm tops.
 there seems to be wear towards the bottom of the shank or is it just the angle of the image

The cutter issue that I may have is with the trimming of the edging to be flush with the ply - do you want me to isolate the pictures concerned?
No. I'm not sure that routing is the best option. try the saw blade and see how you get on.


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## Chems (5 May 2010)

I have come to realise that trend are awful.

Where you trying to do it in one pass? Where you getting a lot of burning?


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## miles_hot (5 May 2010)

cutting solutions":2333z3lg said:


> The broken cutter was fresh from the trend selection box and had never been used. The total cut length was as shown - about 20 cm tops.
> there seems to be wear towards the bottom of the shank or is it just the angle of the image
> 
> The cutter issue that I may have is with the trimming of the edging to be flush with the ply - do you want me to isolate the pictures concerned?
> No. I'm not sure that routing is the best option. try the saw blade and see how you get on.




Doug, sorry together we seem to have managed to mislead you as to the issue so I'll start again - cue wavy line effect so beloved of 80's films for the flash back sequence....

I have attached some oak edging to the edge of my 18 mm oak faced ply - this edging is some 3-5 mm thicker on each side than the ply panel. I need to trim this excess off.

I saw Karl do this on his oak kitchen project thread - see around half way down the page for his method.

I attempted to do this and initially used some hardboard (as I needed it to be be thin as I only had the screws to attach the router to a base plate) and suffered some "bounce" causing the bit to dig in slightly making circular marks in the edging.


 

 

 
Having bought longer screws I then made a new base plate out of 18mm ply but still has some issues. This has prompted me to take a hard look at how I'm doing this and two possible challenges / causes present themselves:
1) User error in how I am handling the base plate - possible solution is to move onto a router table fitted with a false base:



2) The router bit that I'm using has a slight downward angle on the base of the cutter (see below) which presents two very sharp points to the work - I imagine that this will not take much to dig in and they are a cutting surface. I wonder (hence my original question to you) if there is a better / specialist cutter for doing what I am attempting to do without marking the surface under it?




So my questions to you are
1) Is there a specialist bit / class of bits for this sort of work which will improve matters and if so what are they, how much and how fast can you get it to me
2) Do you have any suggestions for how I can make this work?

Many thanks

Miles


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## miles_hot (5 May 2010)

Chems":gugojikm said:


> I have come to realise that trend are awful.
> 
> Where you trying to do it in one pass? Where you getting a lot of burning?


I think I am coming to agree with you but until I try some other bits I will hold judgement - the long straight bit I bought for trimming my decking boards to the joists worked very well...

I am taking a full depth cut but only a few mm at a time horizontally. No burning but some break out - I suspect I need to think rather more about the direction of travel for each of the cuts 

Miles


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## promhandicam (5 May 2010)

miles_hot":201b58kv said:


> I have attached some oak edging to the edge of my 18 mm oak faced ply - this edging is some 3-5 mm thicker on each side than the ply panel. I need to trim this excess off.



Why make the lipping so much thicker than the ply? If I was doing it I would have made it about 19mm wide so I only had about 0.5mm to take off each side. This could have been done with a plane in a few minutes. If you really want to use a router use a bearing guided laminate trimmer and run it on edge of the lipping with the bearing running on the ply. Not sure what router you have but easier with a small one.

Steve


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## miles_hot (5 May 2010)

promhandicam":3ouyqg55 said:


> miles_hot":3ouyqg55 said:
> 
> 
> > I have attached some oak edging to the edge of my 18 mm oak faced ply - this edging is some 3-5 mm thicker on each side than the ply panel. I need to trim this excess off.
> ...


I made it thicker partly for convenience and partly because I'm not very good on the bandsaw and tend to wander a little, sometimes it gets down to 20mm but sometimes it is up to 24 mm  

I tried planing some off but then I ended up damaging the ply as getting it level seemed to involve taking a swipe across the grain of the ply which tore it out.

If I use a bearing cutter on my 1/2 dewalt I would need to be able to hold it at right angles to the top of the 19-24 mm wide edging - I would think that this would be very hard - or at least it would be for me maybe that says something about my skill levels? Hence my thought about the router table - that way I can rest it on a flat surface which will take the weight of the component and act as a large reference surface whilst the cutter takes the cut...

Miles


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## mtr1 (5 May 2010)

Could you use your router on a piece of 4x2 like this to take your lipping off flush(with a bearing cutter).


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## promhandicam (5 May 2010)

. . . or use two fences either side of the ply.


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## miles_hot (5 May 2010)

Oh, I see. Could be worth a go - thanks for that.

Miles


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## cutting solutions (6 May 2010)

Ok. I'm with it now.
Promhandicam's solution is best (trimming router with bearing)but it means working at a difficult angle.
I think (will check when I get to the office later and can look at a catalogue) there are some bottom only cutting routers which could be suitable for the way you are currently working....get back to you on that.

the router you sketched is for plunge cutting and will almost certainly always leave "sratch" marks across the surface if you try to use as a surfacing tool.
Regards
Doug


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## miles_hot (6 May 2010)

cutting solutions":1yibq56j said:


> Ok. I'm with it now.
> Promhandicam's solution is best (trimming router with bearing)but it means working at a difficult angle.
> I think (will check when I get to the office later and can look at a catalogue) there are some bottom only cutting routers which could be suitable for the way you are currently working....get back to you on that.
> 
> ...


ah ha! Good I can blame the tool  In all seriousness I did wonder if there might be a better bit - hence contacting you. I am confused though by the reference to bottom only cutting routers - I was expecting you to say side only cutting routers as I assumed Id want a smooth non marring bottom to the cutter to brush the ply surface and cut away the edging from the side, but I'll bow to the expert 
Miles


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## cutting solutions (6 May 2010)

Hi Miles
There are some surface routers but they are really suited to CNC machines.
Bearing guided trimmers:
As you are only doing short runs I would suggest the Triple flute trimmers from Titman BGT903 as they will give a sharp finish. However take note with the comment about extreme heat build up....though I dont believe that will apply in this instance.
http://www.titman.co.uk/pdfs/2009/P17_20_Trimmers .pdf

Also be aware that when resharpened the outside diameter will be reduced which will need a specialist bearing...readily available.
You still have to think about the narrow work area but I think the other guys have given you some suggestions there.
Regards
Doug


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