# Calvert Stevens



## dannykaye (21 Feb 2012)

Ok [Gloat mode on] I just bought a CS88 for £7 quid in the local antique shop [Gloat off]

However, no blade, half the ss iron or lever cap  I gather some replacement blades fit, anyone got any ideas? If anyone has a spare lever cap of course...

Danny


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## AndyT (21 Feb 2012)

Rob may have some spare halves of SS caps if he gets round to sweeping up his workshop floor... :lol:


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## Benchwayze (21 Feb 2012)

AndyT":12jeflns said:


> Rob may have some spare halves of SS caps if he gets round to sweeping up his workshop floor... :lol:



=D> =D> =D> 

Cracked me up!


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## jimi43 (21 Feb 2012)

AndyT":3ckdhs4y said:


> Rob may have some spare halves of SS caps if he gets round to sweeping up his workshop floor... :lol:




Class! Pure Class!!! 8) 8) 

Jim


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## Vann (21 Feb 2012)

dannykaye":2r2g948j said:


> Ok [Gloat mode on] I just bought a CS88 for £7 quid in the local antique shop [Gloat off]


 :shock: =D> 



dannykaye":2r2g948j said:


> However, no blade, half the ss iron or lever cap  I gather some replacement blades fit, anyone got any ideas? If anyone has a spare lever cap of course...


You can fit a Clifton stay-set cap iron. It has the same profile (I think) so it will look right - as long as you don't get close enough to read the Clifton etch. Or, if it's the main body of the cap-iron you've still got, you may find the deflector of the Clifton fits. However there are some differences between the early Record (angled top) 2 piece cap-irons, and Clifton's design. I don't have any later (rounded top) Record or Calvert-Stevens SS lever caps for comparison.

The CS88 came out with japanese laminated cutting irons, so possibly a "Samurai" iron would be the the appropriate replacement (although a Clifton iron would be more patriotic, but probably too thick).

As for the lever-cap. I bet they're like hen's teeth. You could fit any lever-cap but nothing would be genuine (unless you can find someone who's dropped and broken their CS88  ). As the originals were brass/bronze/gunmetal, the nearest replacement I can suggest is to contact Lie-Nielsen for a replacement part - although Tilgear had a small range of "Grant" (Quangsheng?) bench planes with brass lever-caps, some 2 or so years ago.

Possibly the reason this valuable plane was stripped of those parts is because most CS88s had a casting defect or stress problem (or so I've read) in the form of a lump in the sole behind the mouth. So possibly a lot of fettling will be required.

I'm still envious :mrgreen: 

Cheers, Vann.


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## katellwood (21 Feb 2012)

I've been using a Calvert Stevens for years, originally brought from Tabwell tools Bakewell 20 - 25 years ago and found that with the norris style adjuster I found it better to use a screw type cap as opposed to the one supplied. The one I now use is a record replacement. I find it works better as with a screw cap you can adjust the tension


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## Vann (21 Feb 2012)

No affiliation with either company.





HTH

Cheers, Vann.

PS All photos copied from the web.


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## dunbarhamlin (21 Feb 2012)

Have just checked Clifton 5 1/2 and CS88 StaySet cap irons. the lower parts aren't interchangeable because of the little locating pegs's location. The whole Clifton capiron assembly will work in a CS, the two assemblies being of the same thickness.
In roundel blue, I only have a T5 StaySet, so couldn't compare that.


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## dannykaye (22 Feb 2012)

Thamks all, I have asked if the shop can find any bits but I doubt if I will have any luck, I'll post pics of whatever frankenplane I end up with  

Danny


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## bugbear (22 Feb 2012)

It's surprisngly rare to find a CS88 without its box! They were so damned expensive that they were (normally) lovingly looked after.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (22 Feb 2012)

jimi43":1uokvwxc said:


> AndyT":1uokvwxc said:
> 
> 
> > Rob may have some spare halves of SS caps if he gets round to sweeping up his workshop floor... :lol:
> ...


Got bucket loads of 'em...when they fall off I just kick 'em into a corner of the 'shop :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

I know the OP only paid £7 for the CS but I wouldn't 'invest' any more in it. I had one a few years ago and no matter what I did to it, it was never quite 'right'...so I sold it in the end. The CS had the potential to be a really classy and heavy smoother but there was a casting fault in the body so that the critical area just behind the mouth was raised, in other words a 'bump' and on my one it was around .5mm which was enough to make the thing useless without a lot of fettling.
In fact, mine wasn't the only one 'cos I saw another sitting on a shelf in a workshop with exactly the same fault - Rob


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## dunbarhamlin (22 Feb 2012)

Mine was exactly the same too (and I still haven't got around to your clever lever cap mod - will do in the not too distant)


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## dannykaye (22 Feb 2012)

It is pretty battered, I'll post pics later, anyone got a screw cap for sale that I could modify, pref a pretty brass coloured one?

Could some kind soul post the original blade dimensions please? Are there any tricks to getting it apart? It is really rustyand dirty and I can'actually see the bottom of the frog.

Danny


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## Alf (22 Feb 2012)

bugbear":2mipczys said:


> It's surprisngly rare to find a CS88 without its box! They were so damned expensive that they were (normally) lovingly looked after.





woodbloke":2mipczys said:


> In fact, mine wasn't the only one 'cos I saw another sitting on a shelf in a workshop with exactly the same fault - Rob


So "lovingly looked after" or left "sitting on a shelf"? _Two_ possible reasons for finding them in their boxes more often than not, then...

I dunno, Danny, the more I read of this thread, the less of a gloatable price it sounds.  But still, definitely gloatable in simply being an exceptional find. Especially without its box.


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## matthewwh (22 Feb 2012)

Closest I can do is 

Lever cap
Cap iron
or single piece cap iron (just to keep Rob happy!)
Cutting irons - Clifton / Quangsheng / Ray Iles

If you need a lever cap screw I'll have a rummage through my spares box, should have something to fit.


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## bugbear (22 Feb 2012)

It cost 133 quid at launch (in 1988 of course); this helpful site:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/educatio ... /index.htm

says that would be 292 quid now; Axminster has a Clifton #4 1/2 at 291.50 and the LN at 281; the latter are both Bedrock designs, which the CS88 isn't.

BugBear


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## woodbloke (22 Feb 2012)

matthewwh":378yz5g5 said:


> or single piece cap iron (just to keep Rob happy!)


You're too kind Matt :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: - Rob


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## Paul Chapman (22 Feb 2012)

As the Calvert Stevens has a Norris-style adjuster, I would fit a screw-type lever cap rather than one with a lever. With a Norris adjuster the cap iron needs to be slackened off when adjusting the depth of cut in order not to damage the adjuster mechanism and this is easier with the screw type. A lever cap from a modern Record which has a screw fitting might fit.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


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## Vann (22 Feb 2012)

dannykaye":26e4relq said:


> I just bought a CS88 for £7 quid in the local antique shop


So that's £7 for the plane; £11.50 for the LC (Quangsheng); £18.30 for the cap-iron (Clifton) and £47.50 for the iron (Clifton). Umm, err, £84.30 for a bitsa - a classy bitsa but still a bitsa. :? 

To me, a Clifton 4½ is a better plane than a Record CS88, and with the same Sheffield tradition. 

If you're going to invest big money, buy the Clifton. In the meanwhile, fit the CS88 out with secondhand parts to make it a user, and maybe (just maybe) over a period of time you may source some original parts. Until then, it will never be worth a lot.

Cheers, Vann.


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## woodbloke (22 Feb 2012)

Paul Chapman":23ou46ul said:


> As the Calvert Stevens has a Norris-style adjuster, I would fit a screw-type lever cap rather than one with a lever. With a Norris adjuster the cap iron needs to be slackened off when adjusting the depth of cut in order not to damage the adjuster mechanism and this is easier with the screw type. A lever cap from a modern Record which has a screw fitting might fit.
> 
> Cheers :wink:
> 
> Paul


Spot on here, which is why all Norris bench planes (to the best of my knowledge) had screw type caps rather than the lever variety...slacken off the cap by half a turn, adjust the blade and re-tighten - Rob


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## katellwood (23 Feb 2012)

As shown a record screw cap iron will fit the CS88 and as I previously mentioned and reiterated by Paul and Rob this type of cap iron is essential for the norris style adjuster. 







It escapes me why the original designers did not include a screw cap in the original design.


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## woodbloke (23 Feb 2012)

This is a shot of my CS88 with the cap iron mod:






I brazed a lump of brass over lower hole and re-drilled it, cut off the lever bit and then re-tapped for a bolt from a Record No4 cap iron. It seemed to work OK but I was never really happy with it. I also put a LN iron in which improved it a bit - Rob


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## dannykaye (23 Feb 2012)

I know this is silly and I already have a load of planes, including the prototype of the Ray Isles A6 that is suitable for the same stuff a cs88 is. But, I always wanted one of these and ...

Anyone got a spare record screw cap like the one in katellwood's picture they want to sell?

Danny


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## dannykaye (26 Feb 2012)

I don't know what has been done to this plane but the frog adjuster is bent, the screw part, which looks about 2ba and half an inch long, has a bend in it!

Danny


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## Alf (26 Feb 2012)

Someone really, really didn't get along with that CS88.


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## Racers (26 Feb 2012)

He fell down the stairs sarge, honest :wink: 

Pete


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## AndyT (26 Feb 2012)

Since this thread started, I've been following a mint-looking Calvert Stevens 88 on eBay to see what all the fuss was about.
It's just finished - £225 after 20 bids. Pics here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110824454809


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## katellwood (26 Feb 2012)

Danny 

Just got in from work and read your latest, not had time to go and look at my CS however I think the frog mouth adjuster is a large knurled brass nut the thread of which I am unsure.

The way you describe yours would suggest that it is not an original part photo's would really help as there is a possibility that i could make a replacement using mine as a pattern (when time permits)

the only issue is that your plane contains the same thread and has not been retapped


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## katellwood (26 Feb 2012)

Danny 

If you mean the frog adjusting screw and the threads in a CS are the same as those in a basic record then this will show the thread used 







Im assuming its no 5 in the above drawing


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## dannykaye (27 Feb 2012)

Thanks, I think it is the original, I'll post some pics if I can remember how 

Danny


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## dannykaye (27 Feb 2012)

Some pics, you can see the bent adjustment screw in the last one, after pics to follow(don't hold your breath), I have a Quangsheng blade and Clifton 2 piece ~(sorry I like them) cap iron.For the moment I have a faithfull screw cap but I am looking for a better option, I might end up making a plain brass one.










































Higher quality available if anyone really wants it


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## AndyT (27 Feb 2012)

That really doesn't look too bad. The rust is superficial - easily removable by whatever method you prefer. I think I'd just use a kitchen scourer and "Barkeeper's Friend" or else some fine wet and dry, with WD40 as a lubricant. And I'd try to straighten the brass adjuster, which is original, judging from the ebay pictures. I'm assuming you are looking on it as being a good plane to use, rather than re-sell.
I might even have bought it myself if I'd spotted it!


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## Alf (27 Feb 2012)

The 00298 on the body casting beneath the rear tote - is that a individual plane number? Any other CS owners care to take a look at theirs? Just curious.

And it's only a _little_ bit bent, Danny. Call it character...


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## dunbarhamlin (28 Feb 2012)

683 (the other way up and no leading zeroes) or perhaps 889 since the "3" is a little fudged


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## Modernist (28 Feb 2012)

Seems to have the worst of all worlds, notwithstanding the alpine sole.

The lever cap is retained by a knurled screw so you cannot even release the blade tension for adjustment with a screwdriver.

I could understand it if C and S were accountants but they were apparently plane engineers, clearly not woodworkers.

The ebay description contains the final accolade that it enjoyed the shortest ever production run.

What a donkey. I don't think LN et al could have asked for much more help to get going.


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## katellwood (28 Feb 2012)

Modernist":g8p2yrbx said:


> Seems to have the worst of all worlds, notwithstanding the alpine sole.
> 
> The lever cap is retained by a knurled screw so you cannot even release the blade tension for adjustment with a screwdriver.
> 
> ...




I see what you are saying and to some extent agree, the designers incorporated a knurled screw to adjust the mouth however you still need a screwdriver to loosen the frog, this seems pointless to me, a bedrock design would have been better. 

In addition the lever cap should have been screw tensioned from the outset (and were available to them as I purchased mine just after purchasing the plane). That being said, change the lever cap or do Woodblokes conversion and you have a good workable plane, never had any complaints whilst working with mine, I love that little bit of additional weight 

The other thing I find is that with the norris adjuster there is very little backlash whilst adjusting the depth of cut another plus in my opinion

Finally it was the first ever gift i received from my then to be wife so for me its a keeper no matter what


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## Vann (28 Feb 2012)

Any chance of a picture of the bottom of the frog. Does the frog have a slot for the flange on the adjuster screw...





..like the later Records (as opposed to the fork used on earlier Records and all Stanleys)?



katellwood":2q2d8ude said:


> ...the designers incorporated a knurled screw to adjust the mouth however you still need a screwdriver to loosen the frog, this seems pointless to me,


Maybe it was an attempt to get around the need for a very long screwdriver. I always have hassles getting square onto that screw slot, what with the tote in the way...



dannykaye":2q2d8ude said:


> ...I have a Quangsheng blade and *Clifton 2 piece *~(sorry I like them) *cap iron*.


 =D> Another man has seen the light  

I'll get me coat...

Cheers, Vann.


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## bugbear (29 Feb 2012)

Vann":21lrmt0k said:


> Any chance of a picture of the bottom of the frog. Does the frog have a slot for the flange on the adjuster screw...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've alway hated that design - a thin, unsupported piece of cast iron, under side force. Yech.

BugBear


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## Vann (29 Feb 2012)

bugbear":2luwsedg said:


> Vann":2luwsedg said:
> 
> 
> > Does the frog have a slot for the flange on the adjuster screw...
> ...


Yes, that's what I was thinking. I thought the _upmarket_ CS88 might have reverted to the older style of frog adjuster - not that I've ever heard of a cast iron one breaking, but it just doesn't _feel_ right.

Cheers, Vann.


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## GazPal (29 Feb 2012)

The cast iron adjuster "nib" does work perfectly well though  I just tend to think of this particular modification as one of those improvements that works well enough to keep. :wink:


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## dannykaye (29 Feb 2012)

Yes the frog has a slot for the adjuster, unfortunately the bent adjuster means that it jams in the slot so it is more annoyance than character


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## Aled Dafis (29 Feb 2012)

Sorry to sound harsh, but there must be something I'm missing with the Calvert Stevens, it just looks to me like a Bailey type plane that wants to be a Bedrock but just isn't. I'd *much* rather have a Quangsheng from Workshopheaven, or a Clifton (obviously). I've even heard a little voice in my head mention L-N a few times recently.

Please enlighten me.

Cheers
Aled


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## katellwood (29 Feb 2012)

Aled Dafis":2k8fbuq6 said:


> Sorry to sound harsh, but there must be something I'm missing with the Calvert Stevens, it just looks to me like a Bailey type plane that wants to be a Bedrock but just isn't. I'd *much* rather have a Quangsheng from Workshopheaven, or a Clifton (obviously). I've even heard a little voice in my head mention L-N a few times recently.
> 
> Please enlighten me.
> 
> ...


 
I quite agree today, but what were the comparisons in the late eighties. 

Norris's were silly money and like hens teeth, both Lie Neilsen and Clifton (Clico) were in their infancy. For new Records and Stanleys were allegedly the top of the tree and we are all aware of the quality of new at that time. In addition second hand were few and far between and you had to search (no ebay, no ukworkshop, no internet). 

It could be argued that the CS paved the way for the far superior tools that are available today


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## Vann (29 Feb 2012)

katellwood":25935itc said:


> It could be argued that the CS paved the way for the far superior tools that are available today


Agreed, and possibly that was the CS88s biggest contribution to better woodworking. 

Apart from the quality lever-cap, cap-iron and cutting iron, the rest of the plane seems to be the normal tat of that period.

Cheers, Vann.


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## Cheshirechappie (29 Feb 2012)

katellwood
It could be argued that the CS paved the way for the far superior tools that are available today[/quote said:


> Agreed. The CS88 was a brave attempt by people with their hearts in the right place, but like many Mark One's it could be improved.
> 
> It could also be argued that if the CS88 had been improved, it might have made the Clifton bench-plane line commercially impossible at the time.


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## woodbloke (2 Mar 2012)

Vann":v9dnt7ac said:


> katellwood":v9dnt7ac said:
> 
> 
> > It could be argued that the CS paved the way for the far superior tools that are available today
> ...


No, I'd disagree, it wasn't 'tat' by any means. All parts of the plane were well made, solid and it was very heavy, but as a 'whole' it just didn't work well owing to the bump behind the mouth - Rob


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## katellwood (2 Mar 2012)

woodbloke":1etl2ydd said:


> Vann":1etl2ydd said:
> 
> 
> > katellwood":1etl2ydd said:
> ...



Rob 

Would you have kept yours had it not been for the bump, 

The reason I ask is that I do not recall a bump on mine, in addition I checked it yesterday and it remains perfectly flat. 

It was the first plane I had that had a decent iron and its the one I use the most in my workshop.

Thanks


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## Dangermouse (2 Mar 2012)

Sorry to the CS lovers, but to me it was just a gimick to sell a few more over priced planes. Its a basic design sole with such poor contact area as to be laughable, fitted with a Norris style adjuster to look posh. for the collector yes a rare plane for a collection. But to use, give me a bedrock or even an old ordinary fettled pre 1960 Stanley or Record any day.


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## katellwood (2 Mar 2012)

Dangermouse":1wrpc1lw said:


> Sorry to the CS lovers, but to me it was just a gimick to sell a few more over priced planes.



At its time of production what was its contemporary, you even struggled to find a decent replacement iron for stanleys or records and the tools they were producing at that time left a lot to be desired (plastic totes, gaudy paintwork, poor irons, inadequate finish need I go on). 

Other choices Draper, Footprint and those horrible bright green "Kunz" things no thank you. 



Dangermouse":1wrpc1lw said:


> But to use, give me a bedrock or even an old ordinary fettled pre 1960 Stanley or Record any day



This I can see the sense in but how did you come across a decent one? As I mentioned earlier there was no internet, ebay etc, all you could do was trawl the second hand shops (Colloquially known as Swap Shops in the area of my youth) or the classifieds in the local newspapers or if you were really lucky a hand me down from a relative or colleague. 

To me the CS was a breath of fresh air, a decent laminated iron, an adjuster with minimal backlash (gimmick or not)(in addition with the norris style adjuster if you wish to update the iron to a much thicker replacement you had no worries that the Y lever was long enough to engage in the back iron), totes which were tactile as opposed to cold to the touch and a decent weight behind a tool to aid momentum whilst in use. 

Yes there were issues, I was obviously very fortunate to get one without the bump in the sole and with a change of lever cap the CS became much more usable. 

Compared to other new planes on the market at this time it was a Rolls Royce compared to a Ford, and as AndyT identified still holds its price today. 

Finally I have Norris's, Lie Neilsens, Cliftons, Veritas and Stanley/Records of various vintages with replacement irons, my CS holds its own with any of them.


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## Dangermouse (2 Mar 2012)

I was talking about the plane itself not in context of its prduction period and if i was offered one today as a plane to use rather than to collect. I've no doubt it can hold its own against other planes. Its just over hyped, as thought its up there with the best and it definitely isn't.


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## woodbloke (3 Mar 2012)

katellwood":3myrwz0q said:


> Rob
> 
> Would you have kept yours had it not been for the bump,
> 
> ...


No, even when I'd got the 'bump' out (and it took some doing with big files etc) and replaced the iron with a LN A2 thing, it was better, but only just...it still never seemed 'right', so I kept it as a user until I saw the '_path of true enlightenment_' :mrgreen: (hammer) and tried the LV BU range of planes (starting with the jack). After that, there was no comparison as I found the BU planes *infinitely* better (and still do) so the CS88 went onto fleabay as I recall. I still have one bevel down plane, which is my Norris panel but that's going to be another 'keeper' even though it never gets used now - Rob


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## dannykaye (8 Mar 2012)

Well I tried to straighten the frog adjuster. Now I need to make a new one, a gentle tap and it fractured half way down the thread


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