# Sharpening on stones with a guide



## MarkDennehy (19 Apr 2016)

In need of a tip here. 

I'm sharpening plane irons and chisels with the scary sharp method and using one of the ten million clones of the eclipse guide, and everything's fine - because I can use a relatively long strip of sandpaper so I get a good bit of travel on it. And when I use the oilstones it's more or less okay as well because they're fairly long and easy to turn around. But I got some (really cheap, but I'll upgrade to proper DMZ or EZE-lap ones in a while) diamond stones and was using them this weekend and realised that they're so short that I'm getting about 2-3 inches of travel at most or the guide wheel goes off the stone and the angle changes (and if I start with the guide wheel off the stone and on the bench hook platform I use, I still only get 2-3 inches of movement before the wheel jumps up onto the stone). And since the stones are taped in place, spinning them round to avoid uneven wear is a little awkward.

I tried holding the angle by hand. And learned that when it comes to sharpening woodworking hand tools, I'm a pretty decent software engineer (hammer) 

How do you guys manage to get round that? Inset the stones into the bench hook or something? Or do you just have to go and learn to do it without the guide?


----------



## Graham Orm (19 Apr 2016)

Can't you pick up some bigger stones?


----------



## Jacob (19 Apr 2016)

MarkDennehy":upblfcbq said:


> .... Or do you just have to go and learn to do it without the guide?


Yep. 
It's well worth the effort and makes sharpening so much easier. Doesn't take long to get the hang of it - 20 minutes or so. 
What you _won't_ get is that precise engineered appearance of careful jig use, but that's no great loss.


----------



## Graham Orm (19 Apr 2016)

I use these. http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ri ... one-951777 and finish with a strop.


----------



## Graham Orm (19 Apr 2016)

There are divided opinions about using a guide. The best thing to do is try both techniques and see what you find easiest. I've switched between free hand and using a guide over the years but have never been completely satisfied with the free hand technique. As Jacob rightly points out the only way to get a truly uniform edge is with a guide. However this involves a minute or so to set up so if you don't have that minute to spare, a quick freehand rub will sometimes get you a usable edge.


----------



## AndyT (19 Apr 2016)

As you have found, a jig like yours needs a level surface.

If you want to use the jig, you could try surrounding the cheap stone with a surface at the same level. So, depending how thick it is, you could try surrounding it with thin plywood or layers of anything suitable you can find. Maybe dense card or plastic with a top layer of sheet metal. Or you could excavate (rout) a shallow depression in a piece of hardwood.

You could also try a different sort of guide which references off the bench top rather than the stone. BugBear has shown a design for one on here and on his website.

(At some point you will need to decide whether this is less or more trouble than doing without the jig, but that's not what you asked!)


----------



## D_W (19 Apr 2016)

MarkDennehy":3f3ax2fe said:


> In need of a tip here.
> 
> I'm sharpening plane irons and chisels with the scary sharp method and using one of the ten million clones of the eclipse guide, and everything's fine - because I can use a relatively long strip of sandpaper so I get a good bit of travel on it. And when I use the oilstones it's more or less okay as well because they're fairly long and easy to turn around. But I got some (really cheap, but I'll upgrade to proper DMZ or EZE-lap ones in a while) diamond stones and was using them this weekend and realised that they're so short that I'm getting about 2-3 inches of travel at most or the guide wheel goes off the stone and the angle changes (and if I start with the guide wheel off the stone and on the bench hook platform I use, I still only get 2-3 inches of movement before the wheel jumps up onto the stone). And since the stones are taped in place, spinning them round to avoid uneven wear is a little awkward.
> 
> ...



The ultimate goal is to ditch the guide. I can't think of an easier way to sharpen than a primary grind, and then working a single small bevel with one stone and a strop (the best "one stone" being a washita stone).

But until you get to something like that, you could build a caddy for your stone to go in where the caddy butts up against the stone at the same height with a run of four or five inches. Keep the wheel of the guide on the caddy and the iron on the stone.


----------



## Jacob (19 Apr 2016)

Graham Orm":mt1afbaf said:


> ..., a quick freehand rub will sometimes get you a usable edge.


If you do it properly it will always get you a usable edge, quickly and easily. 
That's how everybody did from the beginning of time, all round the world, with no problem at all, until the very recent introduction of sharpening jigs, when sharpening became difficult. The OPs prob is typical of this.


----------



## ED65 (19 Apr 2016)

MarkDennehy":31lepcxr said:


> I tried holding the angle by hand. And learned that when it comes to sharpening woodworking hand tools, I'm a pretty decent software engineer (hammer)


 :lol: Only way to get better at it is practice. And believe me, I sucked at it when I first started! For me, stropping as the final step helped a lot, but what helped the most was learning that it was okay if the bevel wasn't flat. This was contrary to what all older books said and they couldn't be wrong, right?

I would very much not agree with Jacob that it takes 20 minutes to learn to freehand, when learning this without an old hand right there to see what you're not doing right and give corrections some people struggle for _ages _to do it well (and that's the only standard to aim for: it's a good edge or nothing). No matter how tough you personally find it I do think it's worth persevering because freehand honing can be _so _fast, at best you can get a decent edge back in under 30 seconds, which is before most people using a jig will have finished tightening it up.

Now despite me saying all this there's no reason you can't continue to use your guide on the short cheapie diamond hones you have. That 2-3" of movement you describe is more than adequate, I know a few sharpeners who choose to use less than 1" of their material. Wear on diamond hones is not much to worry about, but don't press hard and work as much of the width of the plate as possible. 

Either way, I think you'll find you won't need to upgrade to EZE-laps or DMZs, at least until your current plates are thoroughly worn out. In a few years.


----------



## Paul Chapman (19 Apr 2016)

If you are using an Eclipse-style honing guide, I find that the 8"x3" size DMT stones work well.

If you are going to use diamond stones, you will find that you need something a bit finer to get a super-sharp edge. I have found that a very effective method is to use diamond paste and oil on a piece of wood. I learnt this technique from Garrett Hack and here's a video of him demonstrating the technique http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/v ... hisel.aspx

You can, of course, make the piece of wood whatever size you wish. The DMT diamond paste is available from Classic Hand Tools https://www.classichandtools.com/acatal ... mpund.html

You only need to use a small amount of the paste so it's very economical.

Hope this helps

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Jacob (19 Apr 2016)

ED65":1ptd18zw said:


> .....
> I would very much not agree with Jacob that it takes 20 minutes to learn to freehand, when learning this without an old hand right there to see what you're not doing right and give corrections some people struggle for _ages _to do it well.....


Yes OK a bit of supervision would help enormously! But it isn't difficult and it does get easier.


----------



## D_W (19 Apr 2016)

Jacob":3vs2p3st said:


> ED65":3vs2p3st said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



I'll beat the drum again. One stone to start with. Primary grind about 25 degrees and lift the iron about five degrees...just a bit, rub the iron on the stone, flip it over on the back (same as with a guide), work the back, then if needed, a couple of light strokes back to front and then strop on bare leather to remove the wire edge. 

The washita is the easiest stone to do this with because it cuts reasonably fast, but it also doesn't leave a really stiff wire edge if finished with a light touch. 

If the edge gets too steep, go back to the grinder and remove all both the last half hair of it and do the same thing again. 

Making the edge small and using a single stone makes it very hard to fail.


----------



## Bm101 (19 Apr 2016)

Without getting involved in the hand/jig row, the op asked for a way to get around having a short surface to sharpen on. My new firm has a lockup under some Bermondsey arches right next to a granite marble supplier. They have loads of 3 foot offcut extras stacked against the yard wall. Does anyone know of a source to get rolls of wet n dry or alternative. I can only seem to find sheets. I'm saying hello to the fella there all the time now. Mornin' mate! Give it a week or two and I'll be looking at one of them big flat slabs in my shed lol. :twisted:


----------



## D_W (19 Apr 2016)

Bm101":1j1l8rvq said:


> Without getting involved in the hand/jig row, the op asked for a way to get around having a short surface to sharpen on. My new firm has a lockup under some Bermondsey arches right next to a granite marble supplier. They have loads of 3 foot offcut extras stacked against the yard wall. Does anyone know of a source to get rolls of wet n dry or alternative. I can only seem to find sheets. I'm saying hello to the fella there all the time now. Mornin' mate! Give it a week or two and I'll be looking at one of them big flat slabs in my shed lol. :twisted:



The reasonable solution was to make another surface in the same plane as the stone and leave the guide on that surface and the blade on the hone. It doesn't really go further than that. 

That said, where are you for rolls? In the US, mirka PSA rolls are in abundance for about $18 for 30 feet of gold aluminum oxide 5 inches wide, and they are fabulous. I don't know if there's something similar for wet and dry, but I wouldn't use wet and dry to hone if fine aluminum oxide paper was available, anyway. 

If you can't find something local at a supply shop, see if anyone is selling mirka or something else similar in country on ebay.


----------



## Bm101 (19 Apr 2016)

Thank you D_W. I wasn't disputing what far more experienced people said, just after a solution to my own problem. I'll take a look on ebay etc. As a beginner I use a jig, I'm just coming to see it's shortcomings too. I'd love to have 20 minutes or a day with someone who could show me how to sharpen by hand properly. The issue is I have to learn everything by scratch (no pun intended.) With so much to learn sometimes for a beginner it's very tempting to take the seemingly easier route. Thanks for the info on the search terms. Much appreciated.
Regards 
Chris


----------



## D_W (19 Apr 2016)

Bm101":2rqfcona said:


> Thank you D_W. I wasn't disputing what far more experienced people said, just after a solution to my own problem. I'll take a look on ebay etc. As a beginner I use a jig, I'm just coming to see it's shortcomings too. I'd love to have 20 minutes or a day with someone who could show me how to sharpen by hand properly. The issue is I have to learn everything by scratch (no pun intended.) With so much to learn sometimes for a beginner it's very tempting to take the seemingly easier route. Thanks for the info on the search terms. Much appreciated.
> Regards
> Chris



We've all been there. I used a jig for several years, and nobody told me not to, either. It worked. I stopped using it eventually because it took too long and I wanted to sharpen carving tools, skew irons, narrow chisels and all manner of things that require serious fiddling with jigs. 

If you always use a jig for your flat iron and it makes you happy, that's all the farther it needs to go. If it starts to bug you when you can't sharpen certain things in it, or if you'd like to halve your sharpening time, it's like anything else. I had a college professor who always said "learning is painful", but the pain in this case is short lived, even if it's not mandatory.


----------



## Rorschach (19 Apr 2016)

I used to sharpen freehand for just about all my tools but I now prefer the jig. Not only is it more aesthetically pleasing but I find it just as quick and easy as freehand but much more consistent and I get less screw ups. I made a setting jig from a few scraps of MDF so putting the chisel or plane blade into the guide takes a matter of seconds and I use the same angle for everything as it seems to work fine for me. DO what you are comfortable with


----------



## ED65 (21 Apr 2016)

Bm101":35tfgivt said:


> Does anyone know of a source to get rolls of wet n dry or alternative. I can only seem to find sheets.


Any decent builder's merchants or even a hardware store could have smaller rolls of abrasive paper or cloth, in 5m or 10m lengths. It's usually reddish but other colours are seen, including a rather offputting yellow sold by Mirka I think (you see Paul Sellers rip pieces off a roll of this on a few of his vids). 

The yellow stuff is standard paper, not wet/dry, but top tip: you can use almost any paper 'wet' as long as you use oil, white spirit or WD-40, it's only water that makes them fall apart. Also in case you don't know, you can sharpen on papers without a lubricant as they can't clog in the same way as a stone. 

If you don't happen to have anywhere nearby that does sell rolls you can pick them up fairly easily on Amazon with of course free P&P. If you're searching online for sources it can be worth using the abrasive type as your search term, aluminium oxide, rather than looking for sandpaper which brings up all types.



Bm101":35tfgivt said:


> I'd love to have 20 minutes or a day with someone who could show me how to sharpen by hand properly.


Been there, have the t-shirt! In the absence of that, have you watched Sellers's video where he preps one of the Aldi chisels? I think that may be the ideal learning video for someone embarking on sharpening by hand, I know it helped me iron out the last few wrinkles.



Bm101":35tfgivt said:


> The issue is I have to learn everything by scratch (no pun intended.) With so much to learn sometimes for a beginner it's very tempting to take the seemingly easier route.


There's no shame in using a guide. Many full-time professional woodworkers won't sharpen without one! 

And while I'm a firm believer in freehanding I don't blind myself to the reality that in 99.9% of hands the edges produced with a good jig are superior to freehanded edges.


----------



## Jacob (21 Apr 2016)

ED65":1ly1u8nt said:


> ...e!
> 
> And while I'm a firm believer in freehanding I don't blind myself to the reality that in 99.9% of hands the edges produced with a good jig are superior to freehanded edges.


Jigs make neater looking edges but freehand can be as sharp as you want 100% of the time.
It's a pity (and rather strange) that so many people have somehow become convinced that it's difficult. It isn't. Any fool can hold a chisel at near enough 30º - then you just wiggle it about, or to and fro, on the stone. It's about as difficult as sharpening a pencil.
Jigs are fairly recent gadgets - but previously everybody managed perfectly well without them. There was never felt to be a _need_ but once they were invented by speculative tool makers they took off, only because they _look_ a good idea, especially to beginners.


----------



## swagman (21 Apr 2016)

Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ. 

I am also a proponent on lightly jointing the toothline of a hand saw before filing the tooth gullets; but I choose not to make a judgement call on the competency level of those that don't follow this same methodology. 

Stewie;


----------



## pedder (21 Apr 2016)

It is a really bad idea to convince someone via fora. It just doesn't work.

Cheers
Pedder, who is fine with or with out jig.


----------



## Jacob (21 Apr 2016)

swagman":3oq0kwxc said:


> Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ.


Tactics don't come into it!
The beginners problem is that there is a lot of stuff for sale which looks as though it might be useful/essential, but nobody in the shop or catalogue is going to tell him he doesn't really need it.


----------



## D_W (21 Apr 2016)

swagman":2bspmbyw said:


> Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ.



There is probably a correlation. The hand-eye coordination and craftsman's sense that you have to develop to sharpen freehand is far less than what's required in a lot of woodworking operations like carving, etc. 

There's also a separate question of what people do if they have to rely on a jig, but want to cut a moulding or sharpen carving tools. Getting away from jigs is inevitable if you want to avoid routers, etc, for those things. It's probably what motivated me, also....I recall when I first got a tormek, fiddling with a jig that would work with carving tools and turning tools ....it was ridiculous and 10 times as difficult as just freehanding.


----------



## Graham Orm (21 Apr 2016)

I'm in my 35th year of being a beginner. I am perfectly able to sharpen freehand but prefer the consistency that I get with a jig.


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (21 Apr 2016)

MarkDennehy":3bm1mvmh said:


> In need of a tip here.
> 
> I'm sharpening plane irons and chisels with the scary sharp method and using one of the ten million clones of the eclipse guide, and everything's fine - because I can use a relatively long strip of sandpaper so I get a good bit of travel on it. And when I use the oilstones it's more or less okay as well because they're fairly long and easy to turn around. But I got some (really cheap, but I'll upgrade to proper DMZ or EZE-lap ones in a while) diamond stones and was using them this weekend and realised that they're so short that I'm getting about 2-3 inches of travel at most or the guide wheel goes off the stone and the angle changes (and if I start with the guide wheel off the stone and on the bench hook platform I use, I still only get 2-3 inches of movement before the wheel jumps up onto the stone). And since the stones are taped in place, spinning them round to avoid uneven wear is a little awkward.
> 
> ...



Besides the obvious option of learning to hone freehand (my choice) ...

You need to think outside the box if you insist on using these small diamond stones: Ditch the Eclipse guide. Saw the end of a 2x4 at 30 degrees, and attach the blade to this so that the bevel is level with the top surface (build a U frame around the blade and use wedges to clamp it in place). Now stroke the diamond plates across the bevel on the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Jacob (21 Apr 2016)

D_W":4plsxly9 said:


> swagman":4plsxly9 said:
> 
> 
> > Jacob. I am also a proponent of freehand sharpening; but to imply that there is a direct connection between the competency of the user and the use of honing jigs, is a somewhat questionable tact to employ.
> ...


Well exactly. 
Woodwork itself is more difficult than sharpening - just as drawing is more difficult than sharpening a pencil. 
If you can do one you can do the other - you just have to stop whinging on about how difficult it is (sharpening that is; woodwork and drawing you are entitled to moan a bit!)


----------



## D_W (21 Apr 2016)

Jacob":3m3rolgw said:


> D_W":3m3rolgw said:
> 
> 
> > swagman":3m3rolgw said:
> ...



Not to mention that when you get a good sense of geometry and edge polish (two different things for someone to consider), and learn to get both accomplished freehand, you can sharpen anything. Garden tools, utility knives, kitchen knives, pocket knives, scissors, carving tools, moulding plane irons, little blades that come in a kitchen machine, etc.


----------



## Jacob (21 Apr 2016)

D_W":r5nlisqk said:


> Jacob":r5nlisqk said:
> 
> 
> > D_W":r5nlisqk said:
> ...


And you can move on to freehand forming spindle or moulding plane profiles (on a wheel that is, but a needle file might help).


----------



## MattRoberts (21 Apr 2016)

I ditched my eclipse clone because it was so unbalanced and I was doing more harm than good. I got the veritas honing guide instead, which is pretty awesome. Much bigger roller, and a very easy to use quick set jig. Also, with regards to your issue, a bigger roller = more room to roll over a piece of wood that's level with your diamond stone


----------



## Bm101 (21 Apr 2016)

ED65":1edd9u84 said:


> The yellow stuff is standard paper, not wet/dry, but top tip: you can use almost any paper 'wet' as long as you use oil, white spirit or WD-40, it's only water that makes them fall apart. Also in case you don't know, you can sharpen on papers without a lubricant as they can't clog in the same way as a stone.



Did not know that ED, so thankyou. That's a great tip. I have about 4 rolls of different grit Oakey already. (Gotta love having a whole house to do up bit by bit. Again....) 
I also have a few plane blades to do from scratch that are in such a state they ideally need regrinding on a wheel. Look like they been gnawed by rats. Jig or no jig its gets a bit tiresome doing it by hand for that long and then going through all the grits. I know it only needs doing once but you get my drift. The idea was to get that bit of 3 or 4 foot bit of marble I mentioned as a bed (for a coupla quid), then tape a few grits at a few feet long next to each other. Industrialise the process a little. (hammer) 
Once they're all done I'll still have my stones to sharpen and hone on normally. 

A unique combination of stone these. They are an experiment by Lie Nielsen and Silverline, a new amalgamated type. 1/4 oilstone, 1/4 waterstone, 1/4 diamond, 1/4 scarysharp. You can buy optional extra addons like Kitchen Wall and Concrete Block but these are a bit of a gimmick I've found. I've rated my sharpened stuff against (included for the price!) the sharpness swatch. I reckon I'm getting upwards of 4.2! A big improvement on 3.7 and _definitely_ noticeable when I squint at it. In the right light. I haven't been able to cut the arm hairs they sent me in a little bottle but I'm getting there. 
You guys should definitely check it out. 
They say there's no substitute for experience but as a beginner its probably advanced my wood working experience by a vector of 7. It said in the manual (full colour pics!) thats equivalent to 'approximately' (they used those quote marks in the Guide) _Nine Full Years as a Complete WoodWorker!!!_ (again, that's verbatim).
What's not too like!?  

(At some point I fell down the rabbit hole making this post. Shhh Don't tell anyone though! And if you're offended, I'm only laughing at myself so don't be. It's been a Very Long Week . )


----------



## MarkDennehy (22 Apr 2016)

> They are an experiment by Lie Nielsen and Silverline, a new amalgamated type. 1/4 oilstone, 1/4 waterstone, 1/4 diamond, 1/4 scarysharp.


The diamond and the scarysharp, no worries, but how do you mix the oil and water to keep the oilstone oiled and the waterstone watered? 
I mean, you *could* always add an egg yolk for the lecithin and make an oil/water emulsion that might work, but that seems like it could clog the paper for the scarysharp.


----------



## Bm101 (22 Apr 2016)

You're nearly therewith eggs! You need ostrich eggs according to the pamphlet. _Miniature_ ostrich Eggs no less. Their consistency means they wont clog and contain just the right amount of lubricant for the various media. They are very very rare and therefore very very expensive. Understandable really. I for one have never seen a miniature ostrich. So they must be rare.
Luckily I have ooohhh, half a dozen going spare at the right price.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (22 Apr 2016)

Egg yolk, oil and water?

Erm - jar of mayonnaise? With extra E-numbers, if you buy the non-organic one!


----------



## ED65 (23 Apr 2016)

Mark, further to what Derek was saying about bridging the sharpening media here's a good implementation of that idea:







A guide to making this here on the Woodsmith etips site here.


----------



## ED65 (23 Apr 2016)

Bm101":3oanwjkh said:


> I also have a few plane blades to do from scratch that are in such a state they ideally need regrinding on a wheel. Look like they been gnawed by rats. Jig or no jig its gets a bit tiresome doing it by hand for that long and then going through all the grits. I know it only needs doing once but you get my drift. The idea was to get that bit of 3 or 4 foot bit of marble I mentioned as a bed (for a coupla quid), then tape a few grits at a few feet long next to each other. Industrialise the process a little. (hammer)


Industrialising the process somewhat is certainly worth doing if you have a major amount of reshaping to do, increasing the length of each stroke that much will dramatically increase the rate of metal removal. This is actually the ideal job for a guide since it's practically impossible for anyone to hold angle with a stroke 2' long.

You don't need a big slab of granite or marble for this though! I long stretch of kitchen counter will do the job perfectly well.

On the going through the grits bit also, you do realise you don't need to do that for a primary bevel? Unless you're working towards a single flat bevel that first grind can stay rough. So for example if you reform the edge using 80 grit alox paper at 25° you can stop there and immediately switch to your stones to hone as you would normally, at 30° or whatever. It's only that secondary bevel and a bit of the back that need to be honed fine/finer, the primary can look like it was scraped over a brick for all the wood will care.


----------



## Jacob (23 Apr 2016)

ED65":1tsnczzv said:


> Mark, further to what Derek was saying about bridging the sharpening media here's a good implementation of that idea:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not just _hold_ the chisel at 30º? What does the jig doing that you can't do? Perhaps you hadn't noticed but the chisel even has a convenient little handle to hold it with - no need to bodge up another holding device!


----------



## Jacob (23 Apr 2016)

ED65":1h35mjq9 said:


> .... it's practically impossible for anyone to hold angle with a stroke 2' long.
> ....


This is simply not true. Any fool can do it. Why does everybody talk themselves out of these very simple little skills?

But in any case you don't need to be too precise grinding - it only has to be slightly less than 30º and it doesn't matter if it's a bit convex either. In fact rounded bevel grinding is very useful with sand paper sharpening - you start carefully at 30 or 25º and dip the handle as you go. This just about eliminates the risk of nicking the paper as most of the grinding is on the bevel. It also means you can use more force and do it faster.
NB the easiest way to fix your paper nice and flat is to use thin paper backed, not cloth backed, and to wet it in a pool of white spirit on your slab (or planer table etc). The wetness will hold it down much flatter than glue, and it's easy to lift off and replace. Helps if you store the paper between boards so it's flat to start with.


----------



## MIGNAL (23 Apr 2016)

To be honest if I had to use that jig I'd give up w'working altogether. Take up knitting instead.


----------



## Jacob (23 Apr 2016)

MIGNAL":et9ktuw5 said:


> To be honest if I had to use that jig I'd give up w'working altogether. Take up knitting instead.


No chance - knitting is a bloody sight more difficult than sharpening chisels!


----------



## MIGNAL (23 Apr 2016)

No, but it would be much less tedious than using that jig, which seems to be a bit like climbing Everest to avoid stepping over a brick.


----------



## MarkDennehy (23 Apr 2016)

Jacob":2dmvxa8d said:


> Why not just _hold_ the chisel at 30º? What does the jig doing that you can't do?


It's holding it at 30º. Which is what I can't do. I might well wind up learning how in short order, but right now I might as well use a bench grinder blindfolded, the end result wouldn't be much worse than my freehanding. And if I'm going to mangle a perfectly good chisel learning, I'd rather only mangle _one_ made from mediocre steel bought from a car boot and save the good steel of the few I already have with a jig.


----------



## MIGNAL (23 Apr 2016)

The method that DW outlined earlier is about as simple as it gets, so easy that it's probably more difficult to actually mount a blade in a honing guide. I use a hand crank for the primary, it's slower than powered but it gives great control. Then it's straight to freehand on one single stone. Just crank the chisel/plane blade up a few degrees. Sometimes that stone is a 1200 diamond, sometimes it's a 8,000 waterstone. The waterstone when I need a really special edge, which isn't very often. One stone is all that is required though. 
You don't need to do long sharpening strokes. I can sharpen on a stone that is 2" x 3". You are just doing enough to see the polished glint all across the blades edge. As soon as you see that, stop. When the blade is dull you go back to the stone. You might be able to do that 3 or 4 times but eventually you are going to have to return to the grinder. In which case you grind it until it stops _only just_ short of your polished glint. It's the work on the hand crank that's the difficult bit (not that it's hard), not the freehand on the stone. It's a beautifully simple system that requires little in terms of tooling, yet it can grind away severe nicks and polish to a mirror finish. I know of a fiddle maker who has used this system for years, mainly working Spruce, Maple and Ebony. He's no slouch either, coz a fiddle costs the price of a small car.


----------



## Jacob (23 Apr 2016)

MarkDennehy":st5jtyej said:


> Jacob":st5jtyej said:
> 
> 
> > Why not just _hold_ the chisel at 30º? What does the jig doing that you can't do?
> ...


Of course you can do it. 
Visualise a right angle - 30º is a third of that. Or it's a gradient of 2 (along the slope) to one vertical. Or draw it out on a bit of card for comparison. It doesn't have to be accurate or a flat bevel - this is only woodwork tool sharpening we are talking about, not precision engineering.
It may take a few minutes to get it reasonably accurate if you've never done it before.


----------



## MarkDennehy (23 Apr 2016)

Jacob":1fzajewe said:


> Of course you can do it.


I don't mean it's physically impossible; I mean I don't have the skill to do it yet.


----------



## Racers (23 Apr 2016)

MarkDennehy":3rw3v79j said:


> Jacob":3rw3v79j said:
> 
> 
> > Of course you can do it.
> ...



Don't listen to anyone who insists their way is best/easy, we are all different and if you want to use a jig then use on there is no shame, don't let the playground bullies influence you, do your own thing.

And stop quoting Jacob I have him on my ignore list so I don't see his "advice" any more.

Pete


----------



## Jacob (23 Apr 2016)

:lol:


----------



## Bm101 (23 Apr 2016)

Tenner on ebay. Cider purchase. Because I don't have enough problems.
Just not sure where to crack the eggs into.


----------



## swagman (24 Apr 2016)

Was I the only member to request the photo and comments posted by Jacob, referencing the Nazi Salute, be deleted.

Stewie;


----------



## Jacob (24 Apr 2016)

Bm101":cmibjzc6 said:


> Tenner on ebay. Cider purchase. Because I don't have enough problems.
> Just not sure where to crack the eggs into.


I've never had a hand powered wheel. Isn't it a problem having one hand taken up with turning it? I imagine a big flywheel and treadle could be useful.


----------



## MIGNAL (24 Apr 2016)

You certainly don't need a treadle or flywheel. You can still overheat the steel, just a little less likely. The real difficulty is similar to rubbing your tummy whilst patting your head. A bit of practice and it becomes second nature, easy. I have a ruby wheel mounted on mine with one of the modern large adjustable guides.


----------



## Bm101 (24 Apr 2016)

Wondered the same thing. As I said, cider purchase lol. My 'plan' is to use a Victorian Era labour saving device at first. My five year old son. _It's only a 3" wheel_ so at best with a new polishing wheel it might be handy for a quick hone, that was the idea in principle at least. At worst it'll be fit only for sharpening my resolve to stop going on ebay when I'm having a drink. :-s

Edit: Sorry Mignal. Cross posted. I wasn't planning to look at wheels till it gets here.


----------



## ED65 (24 Apr 2016)

Jacob":e6hhikna said:


> Why not just _hold_ the chisel at 30º? What does the jig doing that you can't do? Perhaps you hadn't noticed but the chisel even has a convenient little handle to hold it with - no need to bodge up another holding device!


Jacob, in your glee to jump on all things jig-related, you missed that I wasn't actually recommending it, I just posted it to illustrate something that Derek had previously mentioned, in case Mark would find it useful. It's not about whether you or I would find it useful.

End of last week I finished re-sharpening the two chisels I bought at last week's car boot and other than some initial grinding work on the worst of them (rounded corners) it was done freehand. But unlike some people ;-) I remain aware that not everyone can do this because I remember distinctly what it was like when I couldn't as it wasn't that long ago :lol: 

A thread like this does naturally bring up the debate about jigged v. freehand sharpening and freehanders will naturally urge people to go that way, but it shouldn't rise to the level of haranguing the inexperienced.


----------



## ED65 (24 Apr 2016)

Bm101":2p5w1fej said:


> ...with a new polishing wheel...


Safety check: do you have this yet and is it a stone?


----------



## Bm101 (24 Apr 2016)

Hi ED, no only ordered it last night mate. I was going to change the stone out in theory.


----------



## Jacob (24 Apr 2016)

ED65":uyduy8jp said:


> ......
> End of last week I finished re-sharpening the two chisels I bought at last week's car boot and other than some initial grinding work on the worst of them (rounded corners) it was done freehand. But unlike some people ;-) I remain aware that not everyone can do this because I remember distinctly what it was like when I couldn't as it wasn't that long ago :lol: ....


I wouldn't grind by hand unless I had to - it's just hard work. But if doing it by hand it's probably quickest freehand with rounded bevel (but keeping it below 30º) on wet n dry 80 grit well flooded with white spirit, 
I use a Sorby proedge instead, then hone by hand. Old knackered chisel would take just a minute or so.

PS If it's "haranguing the inexperienced" I see this as counter haranguing - they've been harangued into doubting their ability to do some very simple things and instead to buy a lot of kit and gadgets. 
There's a clue in that nearly all sharpening threads (including this one) are about difficulties encountered whilst using a jig - the sensible solution in almost every case is to dump the jig.


----------



## Cheshirechappie (24 Apr 2016)

Hand cranked grinders are great!

Power grinders are fast and effective, but even with considerable experience, you tend to approach them with some trepidation. There's the danger of overheating the tool, but there's also the surefire knowledge that if a finger contacts the wheel, or something jams where it shouldn't, the machine won't stop. Things get worse very fast indeed on a power grinder.

No such problems with a hand-crank. Merest hint of a problem, and you automatically stop cranking. Indeed, using one is a joy - there's no trepidation, and because they take metal off less quickly, progress can be monitored much more easily. You can change direction of wheel rotation very easily, too! Regrinding a tool takes a bit longer than it would on a power grinder, but it's much more relaxing - almost therapeutic.

-----

Just a thought about freehand honing - it's not difficult once you've got the hang of it, but getting the hang of producing consistent results quickly does take a bit of practice. Don't believe those who say any fool can do it instantly. It is worth persevering until you have some confidence with it, but also, there's absolutely no reason why you can't use a jig to help in the meantime if you want. Just do whatever suits you to keep edges sharp - and don't listen to anybody who says you're doing it all wrong.


----------



## Rorschach (24 Apr 2016)

I have a hand cranked grinder, it doesn't see a lot of use, prefer my 8" Axi slow grinder for most things, especially HSS lathe tools, however the hand crank is superb for working on very small tools and touching up screwdrivers and the like. I am pretty good at using it one handed and if I need really fine control I get the missus to crank it for me lol.


----------



## Bm101 (24 Apr 2016)

Thanks guys. One thing I thought it might be handy for (don't question the logic...) is cambering the blades a little. Weirdly (?) I'd feel happier doing that on a wheel than by hand because I can see it if that makes sense. I'm happy using a jig, no worries at all. That some don't doesn't worry me in the slightest tbh. Each to their own. I'll get round to it at some point. Any suggestions as to what to replace the stone wheel with? Mignal suggested Ruby? Being a tiny 3" wheel might affect whats available maybe. 
When I was young and a little more feral I used to help some greenwoodworkers do charcoal burning and bodging displays in the Greenfields at Glastonbury Festival. At some point every year this beardy fella would come by with his adapted bike, turn it upside down, replace the back wheel with a grinding stone and sharpen everyones tools to perfection. Very smart.


----------



## Jacob (24 Apr 2016)

Cambering, or honing an already cambered edge, is difficult to impossible with most jigs. Most jigs are useless unless the edge is dead straight, perfectly aligned in the jig, and the stone dead flat.


----------



## Bm101 (24 Apr 2016)

Yeh, hence my point with the wheel Jacob. I did see a cambering attachment you could buy for the Veritas jig the other day. Even I laughed at that.


----------



## Bm101 (24 Apr 2016)

Just talking to my Italian Knife maker mate, apparently it's common practice there even today.


----------



## David C (24 Apr 2016)

There are a number of Honing guides which work perfectly well with a slightly cambered edge.

Eclipse & clones, Veritas with cambered roller, old red Marples, old Stanley? with the ball. Also that wonderful old minimalist angle guide with the narrow brass wheel and the projections marked. In fact anything which does not have a wide roller or training wheels.

David Charlesworth


----------



## Jacob (24 Apr 2016)

David C":y6xkbzvm said:


> ........ Also that wonderful old minimalist angle guide with the narrow brass wheel and the projections marked. .......


One of the best IMHO (of a bad lot!). I've got one. Anybody using it will realise in a few minutes that they can do it just as well without the guide, which is worth knowing.


----------



## bugbear (24 Apr 2016)

Jacob":ef8hog69 said:


> Cambering, or honing an already cambered edge, is difficult to impossible with most jigs.



Odd. I find it really easy, even on the camber of a proper scrub plane blade. Scrubs are fun, and sharp scrubs are more fun.






if you're struggling and want tips, just ask. I'm always happy to provide honest information.

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (25 Apr 2016)

What is the jig doing for you which you can't do without it?


----------



## ED65 (25 Apr 2016)

Jacob":13k7y7z8 said:


> I wouldn't grind by hand unless I had to - it's just hard work.


Yes it's a hard slog all right. I've done it three or four times and it's not something I would choose to do again. One chisel with a big chip taken out of the edge took more than 40 minutes of continuous effort I recall.



Jacob":13k7y7z8 said:


> I use a Sorby proedge instead, then hone by hand. Old knackered chisel would take just a minute or so.


I have a small low-speed grinder. Just squaring the edges was merely a pass or two over the stone, but the wider one was heavily rounded possibly from a life as a paint tin opener, general dogsbody scraper or what have you. I had to grind back nearly 3mm so a lot of steel had to be removed to form a new bevel. I can't imagine how long it would have taken completely by hand on a 19mm chisel. I think it required about 6-7 minutes of grinding, seemed longer but that's probably what it took. 

But to compensate you'll be pleased to hear on the narrower one only 11 or 12 strokes on a 1000 diamond plate, all of two seconds' work, was all that was needed on the back. Now obviously I was lucky, but it does illustrate how quickly the flat of a chisel can be commissioned, nothing remotely like the long and laborious lapping sessions too often recommended today.



Jacob":13k7y7z8 said:


> PS If it's "haranguing the inexperienced" I see this as counter haranguing


Fair enough the message that freehanding is viable today as it was in yesteryear does need to be put across, ditto oilstones, but it's about how it's put across. Catch more flies with honey than with vinegar and all that.

And I think it does a disservice to adamantly state that everyone can freehand because it's quite clear that everyone can not. I think you need to leave room for the fact that not everyone is cut out to be a hand sharpener. There are those who have struggled with freehanding for _years_, that's proof enough of that. Part of it is knowledge of what should be done and how (harder to learn solo than might be supposed) but the simple fact is that not everyone's hands can learn this, at least not well enough to do it consistently to the high standard necessary for chisels for example.

Plane irons I'd say anyone could learn to do it because of the wide reference surface, and honing angle is much less critical on most irons. And in part because they don't need to be quite as sharp to work properly. But chisels are tougher to do and not everyone can muster the necessary coordination to do it well each and every time, particularly on narrower chisels. 



Jacob":13k7y7z8 said:


> There's a clue in that nearly all sharpening threads (including this one) are about difficulties encountered whilst using a jig - the sensible solution in almost every case is to dump the jig.


By the same logic difficulty experienced with freehand sharpening implies that person should ditch that method ;-)

An equally sensible solution to difficulties encountered when using honing jigs is getting input on using them better/properly, same as it is with any piece of kit.


----------



## bugbear (25 Apr 2016)

Jacob":3eokdzjl said:


> What is the jig doing for you which you can't do without it?



I believe the question of "why use jigs" has been discussed before, so I won't bother going over old ground.

I was addressing your assertion about honing guides not being capable of use with cambers, which you should have the courtesy not to repeat, now that it's been disproved by counter example.

BugBear


----------



## David C (25 Apr 2016)

Examples !!

Great photo of the red job.

David


----------



## Jacob (25 Apr 2016)

bugbear":1bbz2oy9 said:


> Jacob":1bbz2oy9 said:
> 
> 
> > What is the jig doing for you which you can't do without it?
> ...


What I wrote was "Cambering, or honing an already cambered edge, is difficult to impossible with most jigs" which is true. I thought you read everything I write really carefully BB. Pay more attention!
NB if you look carefully you will see the word "most" which implies "not all".

What about answering my question, which was apropos your jig photo; "What is the jig doing for you which you can't do without it?"


----------



## David C (25 Apr 2016)

Jacob's statement about cambering and honing is demonstrably inaccurate.

I bet there are more Eclipse type and tilting guides about than straight roller & training wheels.

Guides maintain known angles which are accurately repeatable.

How obtuse can one get?

David


----------



## bugbear (25 Apr 2016)

David C":3j0hxgrz said:


> Jacob's statement about cambering and honing is demonstrably inaccurate.
> 
> I bet there are more Eclipse type and tilting guides about than straight roller & training wheels.
> 
> ...








:lol: 

BugBear


----------



## Jacob (25 Apr 2016)

David C":2v17v4oe said:


> Jacob's statement about cambering and honing is demonstrably inaccurate.
> 
> I bet there are more Eclipse type and tilting guides about than straight roller & training wheels.


The eclipse guide can be made to camber up to a point (with difficulty, this is not the intention) but not enough for a scrub plane. Either way it's easier without. Most of the others are much the same or worse in that respect, though you can have tilting rollers as an extra with some.


> Guides maintain known angles which are accurately repeatable.


Freehanders do (almost) exactly the same. Near enough accurate judged by eye (and the emergence of a burr).


> How obtuse can one get?
> 
> David


[/quote][/quote]Freehand one can go as obtuse as 90º if one really wanted. No problemo!


----------



## Paul Chapman (25 Apr 2016)

Jacob said:


> Near enough accurate judged by eye (and the emergence of a burr).
> 
> 
> > Us honing guide users can get it far more accurate (and therefore sharper) than "near enough".
> ...


----------



## Carl P (25 Apr 2016)

Reading this is like watching 'Dave' on TV, all your favourite repeats full of loveable characters saying the same old stuff over and over again. Life affirming stuff - if Jacob and Bugbear swapped positions, or even worse agreed with each other it might precipitate an existential crisis of such grave proportions it could tear apart the very fabric of space/time itself!

Not that I'm a believer, but God bless you all, the mad scramble of life would be that bit poorer without you.

Cheerio,

Carl


----------



## Bm101 (25 Apr 2016)

Well, that's me learned a lesson. When I saw the cambered veritas roller the other day I presumed (and what's presumption the Mother of?) , you had to disassemble the straight roller with the allen key etc in the same way you put a new straight roller on. (The first one I got on mine was a bit out and Veritas sent me a new one gratis, no quibble so fair play). Reading above I thought that can't be the case, it would be too much of a faff which was why I laughed it off. So I did a little research on the net. Ended back up on here on (surprise) on a review done by Alf back in 2006. Ahhh. It's a replaceable _quick change_ unit. That'll make more sense then. (homer) Only 10 years late to the party. #-o


----------



## Graham Orm (25 Apr 2016)

Carl P":3bre5ys5 said:


> Reading this is like watching 'Dave' on TV, all your favourite repeats full of loveable characters saying the same old stuff over and over again. Life affirming stuff - if Jacob and Bugbear swapped positions, or even worse agreed with each other it might precipitate an existential crisis of such grave proportions it could tear apart the very fabric of space/time itself!
> 
> Not that I'm a believer, but God bless you all, the mad scramble of life would be that bit poorer without you.
> 
> ...


 :lol: :lol:


----------



## D_W (25 Apr 2016)

Paul Chapman":1j10a7ug said:


> Jacob":1j10a7ug said:
> 
> 
> > Near enough accurate judged by eye (and the emergence of a burr).
> ...



I doubt a free-handers angle varies by more than a degree. You get used to setting the iron on the stone at a specific angle and you just do it. There certainly isn't any difference in sharpness between my edges before and after guide (I don't remember when I stopped using a guide, maybe 5 years ago? Hard to tell).


----------



## D_W (25 Apr 2016)

Question to the dedicated guide users. What do you do to sharpen moulding planes and carving tools?


----------



## MIGNAL (25 Apr 2016)

or even knives or all sorts of other blades that don't readily fit into some sort of guide. There comes a point (at least for myself) where I would practically require two dozen different guides to cover the blades that I use - knives (various types), skew chisels, gouges, tiny thumb plane blades, wooden spokeshave blades, drawknife. . .


----------



## David C (25 Apr 2016)

I teach amateurs and beginners. They are not getting pleasure from their planes or chisels because they are not getting them properly sharp. 

They can be taught to produce a practically perfect edge in two days. One for chisels and one for cambered plane blades. (preparation, grinding & honing, squaring, cambering). 

David,
I expect I sharpen moulding planes and carving chisels the same or similar way you do. It just so happens this is not very often. Modern furniture tends not to use them.

David


----------



## D_W (25 Apr 2016)

David C":3p8b5c28 said:


> I teach amateurs and beginners. They are not getting pleasure from their planes or chisels because they are not getting them properly sharp.
> 
> They can be taught to produce a practically perfect edge in two days. One for chisels and one for cambered plane blades. (preparation, grinding & honing, squaring, cambering).
> 
> ...



That's certainly an issue I hadn't considered - not using that type of tool at all (moulding planes or carving tools), and never really planning to. 

I can identify with using the guide as an amateur and beginner, I guess I'm still both (but without the guide). I still recommend beginners your three bevel video when they talk about having trouble sharpening, because I know they'll grasp it and I know it will create a final bevel angle great enough to resist small chipout. I didn't stay with the method, but it served its purpose.


----------



## David C (25 Apr 2016)

I'm very pleased to hear that my DVD served its purpose for you.

This is why I can't understand skilled practitioners who constantly advise beginners against guides.

They get the job done and people can move on to freehand whenever they like.

The objective is sharp tools and it doesn't matter how they are achieved.

Best wishes,
David


----------



## Jacob (25 Apr 2016)

Paul Chapman":1yj7c3sk said:


> Jacob":1yj7c3sk said:
> 
> 
> > Near enough accurate judged by eye (and the emergence of a burr).
> ...


More accurate doesn't mean sharper. I suppose that's the honing guide delusion in one!
"Near enough" is good enough for us woodworkers, i.e. to a particular angle - not "near enough" to a degree of sharpness


----------



## bugbear (25 Apr 2016)

Jacob":1ptm8e0p said:


> What I wrote was "Cambering, or honing an already cambered edge, is difficult to impossible with most jigs" which is true. I thought you read everything I write really carefully BB. Pay more attention!
> NB if you look carefully you will see the word "most" which implies "not all".



Ah - so (inverting the multiple negatives) your statement could be paraphrased as "Cambering, or honing an already cambered edge, is easy with some jigs"

I stand corrected, and humbly apologise for my error.

BugBear


----------



## MarkDennehy (25 Apr 2016)

Mental note - never ask *that* question again...


----------



## ED65 (25 Apr 2016)

David C":2bg1dj2c said:


> I teach amateurs and beginners. They are not getting pleasure from their planes or chisels because they are not getting them properly sharp.


This is the problem in a nutshell: newer woodworkers need to be able to produce good edges _right now_. It's the difference between a plane that barely works and one that sings, between a chisel that crushes end grain or slices it cleanly, between a carving knife that's not safe to use and one that'll pare with little resistance. 

We all know these things, there's no argument there. Why do we (woodworkers collectively) insist on arguing about how they got there when the results are what matter? Does the wood care how the steel was held? Of course not. So neither should we. 

While I think freehand sharpening is the thing to aim for I think those struggling with it should NOT always be encouraged to persevere with it but to try a jig (homemade ideally since it won't involve any outlay and they can try it nearly immediately). If they try honing with a jig and it's a revelation they're helped now, when they need it the most. And they'll always have that level of sharpness to refer back to as a point of comparison for their freehand sharpening efforts, to match or try to exceed if they want to take it that far.


----------



## Paul Chapman (25 Apr 2016)

ED65":1s1ys4vu said:


> I think freehand sharpening is the thing to aim for



I disagree. Surely the thing to aim for is a method that quickly and repeatedly produces a super-sharp edge. If, for some of us, that means using a honing guide, so be it.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## MIGNAL (25 Apr 2016)

At the end of this week I have a complete beginner coming into the workshop. If it takes him longer than an hour to learn how to freehand sharpen I'll be shocked. Chisels and planes. I'll leave the difficult ones (like double beveled knives) for another day.


----------



## MattRoberts (25 Apr 2016)

We've just hijacked a guy's thread with 9 pages of debate on freehand vs guides. Maybe we should leave it there


----------



## Phil Pascoe (25 Apr 2016)

The end product is really all that matters. When I first learned to set a plane at school when I was twelve I found it difficult to do by sight, so did it by touch. Five or six times the master took the plane off me after I'd set it to check it, after the first couple of times he handed it back untouched. The last time he watched me I asked if there was a problem - no, he replied, you can do it perfectly well - just get on with it. Fifty years later, I still set planes by touch. I don't give a toss whether other people do it by sight or touch - anymore than I give a toss whether other people use a jig or not.


----------



## Paul Chapman (25 Apr 2016)

MattRoberts":9gkyz96j said:


> We've just hijacked a guy's thread with 9 pages of debate on freehand vs guides. Maybe we should leave it there



Don't worry, he probably fell asleep hours ago :lol: 

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Phil Pascoe (25 Apr 2016)

MattRoberts":1yiztdda said:


> We've just hijacked a guy's thread with 9 pages of debate on freehand vs guides. Maybe we should leave it there


Serve him right. He put "sharpening" in the title. He should have known what would happen.


----------



## Bm101 (25 Apr 2016)

I sometimes wonder why I ask questions on here. Some people probably think, ahhh here we go.... Another one asking the same things we've been answering for 10 years. I've made so many mistakes and newboy errors. But then again where else would I be able to get the direct advice of people who write books on woodworking, teach it to amateurs on courses I can't afford to take the time off work or my family for, or the likes of so many others who are consumate experts, professional or otherwise who are kind enough to help out. I have broad shoulders. I'm willing to look the fool because I _hope_ I have an _even_ broader mind. Every mistake has been learnt from. Each time I got it wrong I got it right the next time. Every mistake made is a lesson learned. 
I never really got the deal on sharpening debates . TBH it seems a bit mad to me. I bought a few nice chisels and after years of doing diy and so on, it was a Damascus moment. A literal eye opener. What was a task before became a joy. Shhhhink! as the wood did what I wanted it to. And all of a sudden I was converted. How you get there hardly seems important. As long as you get there.

Freehand, guides, who cares? Whatever suits you Shirley. Dont call me Surely.


----------



## ED65 (25 Apr 2016)

Paul Chapman":224sq5l8 said:


> ED65":224sq5l8 said:
> 
> 
> > I think freehand sharpening is the thing to aim for
> ...


Wow Paul, take that completely out of context why don't you?! I go on to actually support the case for jigging, geez Louise.


----------



## Paul Chapman (25 Apr 2016)

ED65":2m4ctwjv said:


> Paul Chapman":2m4ctwjv said:
> 
> 
> > ED65":2m4ctwjv said:
> ...



Apologies if I misinterpreted what you said.

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## Jacob (25 Apr 2016)

D_W":2e8in2ug said:


> .....
> The reasonable solution was to make another surface in the same plane as the stone and leave the guide on that surface and the blade on the hone. It doesn't really go further than that.
> .....


Without a jig you can sharpen on a very small stone, if you really have to. Not easy but say 1/2" square for fine honing. Too small for grinding - unless you have a lot of time - say you are working on a prison escape and getting kitted up with sharp edges. 8)


----------



## Jacob (25 Apr 2016)

phil.p":b7u2ee5q said:


> ..... I don't give a toss whether other people do it by sight or touch - anymore than I give a toss whether other people use a jig or not.


I don't give a toss either - except I think it could be helpful to point out to our OP (and legions with the same dilemma) - that problems will go away if you dump the jig. He is asking for help - it's not good enough to simple instruct him to buy more kit!

Two essential things: 
1 Don't exceed 30º ish. Less is OK, even if this results in a rounded bevel. This demands self control! 
2 Don't stop until you get a burr _right across_ especially the middle where there is usually most wear. If you can't see it you can probably feel it.
3 If you don't get a burr promptly you may need to remove more metal from the bevel to speed things up. Coarse grinding, angle grinder, belt sander 40 grit etc. is fine. This is often called "backing off".


----------



## D_W (25 Apr 2016)

Jacob":3ebivji2 said:


> D_W":3ebivji2 said:
> 
> 
> > .....
> ...



It's also a lot easier to keep stones flat when they're narrower than wide iron, but I guess troublesome with a jig. When I used jigs, my stones were always wide, and I had to flatten them. 

Once I went to freehand, I stopped flattening my stones other than as part of the sharpening process.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (25 Apr 2016)

"I don't give a toss either - except I think it could be helpful to point out to our OP ... " - fair point, Jacob.


----------



## CStanford (26 Apr 2016)

MarkDennehy":2uwpw2ah said:


> In need of a tip here.
> 
> I'm sharpening plane irons and chisels with the scary sharp method and using one of the ten million clones of the eclipse guide, and everything's fine - because I can use a relatively long strip of sandpaper so I get a good bit of travel on it. And when I use the oilstones it's more or less okay as well because they're fairly long and easy to turn around. But I got some (really cheap, but I'll upgrade to proper DMZ or EZE-lap ones in a while) diamond stones and was using them this weekend and realised that they're so short that I'm getting about 2-3 inches of travel at most or the guide wheel goes off the stone and the angle changes (and if I start with the guide wheel off the stone and on the bench hook platform I use, I still only get 2-3 inches of movement before the wheel jumps up onto the stone). And since the stones are taped in place, spinning them round to avoid uneven wear is a little awkward.
> 
> ...



Mark, if you want to use a guide you made a bad choice in buying short stones. You'll have to eat that loss and buy longer ones. It's that simple. You other alternative is to learn how to hone freehand though short stones aren't a joy then, either, in my opinion. 

You need the more-or-less standard 8" long stones. Woodworking is hard enough. Don't compromise on stones. 8x2 has been the bench woodworker's standard for decades. It didn't happen by accident.


----------



## MIGNAL (26 Apr 2016)

Freehand you can practically use a stone not much larger than 2" x 3". In fact my method involves very short forward/backward strokes with the blade, not the long strokes full length of the stone. Short strokes = less overall movement, easier to maintain the angle. Obvious really. Try bowing a violin, you'll soon find out the difference large arm/hand movements make.
You can't skew the blade with a guide, you have to present it face on if you want the wheel to spin. Freehand I can present a blade edge on should I choose. It's just a much more flexible system. Guides are very crude in comparison to the workings of the human hands and arms.


----------



## Phil Pascoe (26 Apr 2016)

Interestingly, I've just had an email from Axi - only £96 - go for it!!
http://www.axminster.co.uk/lie-nielsen- ... ning_Guide


----------



## MIGNAL (26 Apr 2016)

Crikey! You need very deep pockets for that and the separate jaws. Even one set of jaws and it's up to £100. 
Really, just keep trying the freehand. It's a truly liberating experience. If you are still having trouble use the method that DW outlined. It's so simple it's hard to go wrong.


----------



## Corneel (26 Apr 2016)

Don't forget all the special jaws: http://www.axminster.co.uk/lie-nielsen-honing-guide-jaws-ax961662 
You can easilly raise the price up to 300 quid or so (and still can't sharpen a simple gouge).


----------



## Jacob (26 Apr 2016)

phil.p":3j6cgxxd said:


> Interestingly, I've just had an email from Axi - only £96 - go for it!!
> http://www.axminster.co.uk/lie-nielsen- ... ning_Guide


Not a leftover April fool joke?
Somebody will buy you can be sure of that!
If you spend another £130 you can buy all the little add-ons to make it even more indispensable! It still won't do cambered blades though. That add-on will be along later I expect. Another £50?
Never give a sucker an even break! :lol:

Seriously though - only a complete silly person would buy it.


----------



## MarkDennehy (26 Apr 2016)

...but why is that one £96 when the standard eclipse and it's billion clones aren't even £9.60?
Or is this just the same kind of nonsense that sees a record 071 on ebay being priced at more than a new veritas router plane?


----------



## AndyT (26 Apr 2016)

It does make the jig shown earlier (three bits of scrap wood and a g-cramp) seem a remarkably good idea, IF you want a jig - but let's not go round that loop again...


----------



## Paul Chapman (26 Apr 2016)

Well, I bought the Lie Nielsen honing guide (plus the set of long jaws) last year - one of the first batch to come into the country. It's superb. While it looks similar to the Eclipse, it's significantly different in several respects.

Best thing since sliced bread  

Cheers :wink: 

Paul


----------



## profchris (26 Apr 2016)

I have no view on the best way to sharpen, and certainly none about how others should do it. I don't get on well with jigs, but that's me, not the jig. But I am inconsistent, and I recently discovered why, which might help some who can't always get a good edge.

The three fundamental steps, (a) flatten back, (b) hone until there is a burr across the full width, (c) remove burr, seems to cover all one needs to know. But, I've found that removing the burrs I make requires further work on the back of the blade, and more than my reading led me to believe. Often I was just rounding over the burr rather than removing it, thus producing a less than sharp blade.

So if anyone gets a full width burr but then doesn't end up with a sharp blade, try working the back for a few seconds more. Now I do this and get much better results.


----------



## Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) (26 Apr 2016)

MarkDennehy":1fusaqvo said:


> In need of a tip here.
> 
> I'm sharpening plane irons and chisels with the scary sharp method and using one of the ten million clones of the eclipse guide, and everything's fine - because I can use a relatively long strip of sandpaper so I get a good bit of travel on it. And when I use the oilstones it's more or less okay as well because they're fairly long and easy to turn around. But I got some (really cheap, but I'll upgrade to proper DMZ or EZE-lap ones in a while) diamond stones and was using them this weekend and realised that they're so short that I'm getting about 2-3 inches of travel at most or the guide wheel goes off the stone and the angle changes (and if I start with the guide wheel off the stone and on the bench hook platform I use, I still only get 2-3 inches of movement before the wheel jumps up onto the stone). And since the stones are taped in place, spinning them round to avoid uneven wear is a little awkward.
> 
> ...



Hi Mark

There is nothing "wrong" with using a honing guide. What is important is that you get your blades sharp, and then are able to go woodworking. Some here pride themselves on their sharpening, while others pride themselves on what they build with a sharp edge.

What you do need to recognise is that, if you wish to use a honing guide, then the sharpening media must accommodate it. This means space/length to run the guide, and a flat surface to maintain the bevel angle. Most stones - water, oil or diamond - need to be at least 8" long and 3" wide. 

Freehand sharpening opens up more options: you do not rely on the setup limits of a guide, plus you can use really small sharpening media. 

In some cases a guide is the preferred method. For example, I use the new LN guide (Ya sucks to all its detractors!  ) for bevel up plane blades (since these require a secondary microbevel). Yes I could use a cheap Eclipse, but the LN is better (and my wife paid for it, so take it up with her). All the rest - chisels and bevel down plane blade - I freehand. Some very respected furniture makers and teachers use a guide for everything. Sharpening is just a path to woodworking.

Regards from Perth

Derek


----------



## Cheshirechappie (26 Apr 2016)

On the basis of making best use of what's available, how about making a simple cradle to hold the short sharpening stone, with a sort of wooden runway at the same height as the stone surface for the guide wheel of the jig to run on? Three pieces of wood - one long one, with two shorter bits attached, one at each end of the long bit (glue, nails, screws, whatever), one short bit to stop the stone falling off the end of the long bit, and a medium sized bit for the guide runway at the other end of said long bit, with the stone 'trapped' between.

Occasionally, you see old oilstones in boxes with an insert at each end of the stone level with the face. I sometimes wonder if that was for the same reason.

------

On the wider question of jig vs. freehand - the arguments really bemuse me. I think about 98% of woodworkers really don't give a flying fig what method anybody else uses to get their edges sharp, but a very small number seem determined to prove beyond all doubt that their pet method is the only 'right' way. It doesn't matter at all which type of grinder, honing stone, strop or whatever you choose to use, provided you get the edges you need for the work you do. Freehand? Fine. Jig? Great. Secret addition of moonshine and fairy dust to the surface of the stone? Yeah - if it works for someone, let 'em carry on.

If - sometime in the future - somebody feeling their way in the early stages of learning the craft asks a perfectly sensible, simple question, maybe we could try answering the question, helping them out a bit - and refrain from ramming our prejudices down their throats? No names, but you know who I mean!


----------



## AndyT (26 Apr 2016)

Cheshirechappie":1bd8unqp said:


> On the basis of making best use of what's available, how about making a simple cradle to hold the short sharpening stone, with a sort of wooden runway at the same height as the stone surface for the guide wheel of the jig to run on? Three pieces of wood - one long one, with two shorter bits attached, one at each end of the long bit (glue, nails, screws, whatever), one short bit to stop the stone falling off the end of the long bit, and a medium sized bit for the guide runway at the other end of said long bit, with the stone 'trapped' between.



That's such a good idea, it's a wonder nobody thought to suggest it back on page 1!

I believe this thread has now started to eat its own tail, and should be left to die quietly in a corner... :lol: :lol: 







(Image by anonymous medieval illuminator; uploader Carlos adanero [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons)


----------



## Cheshirechappie (26 Apr 2016)

Oops - sorry, Andy!  

Must admit, I didn't feel like reading the whole thread through again....and it's not so much going in a circle, as doing about 3000rpm.


----------



## G S Haydon (26 Apr 2016)

Picture of your proposal Andy, CC. Not a good idea with soft water stones but ok on diamond plates and oil stones. The eclipse pattern guide is also ideal for starting out, if using a guide is something that you want.


----------



## CStanford (26 Apr 2016)

Wish you'd post pictures of your bench again....


----------



## G S Haydon (26 Apr 2016)

Not sure if you're yanking my chain Charles but my most recent lash up is this one. The stud work material was less fun to use than the joinery quality stuff last time but it was still ok.


----------



## MarkDennehy (26 Apr 2016)

Hush you. Look at that wonderful metal inlay filigree work, cunningly disguised as ordinary timber stud connectors. Marvellously understated.


----------



## CStanford (27 Apr 2016)

Not jerking your chain at all Graham. I love the bench. I still need to build a new one. Post more pics, please.


----------



## Ttrees (27 Apr 2016)

+1 for the eclipse style jig 
I found it trained me to sharpen freehand 
getting the bevel down at just the correct angle and feeling the burr 
maybe muscle memory but I think it was more of a learning to feel the correct angle to land down at 
Hard to explain (hammer)


----------



## MattRoberts (27 Apr 2016)

CStanford":3a7elj6j said:


> Not jerking your chain at all Graham. I love the bench. I still need to build a new one. Post more pics, please.


He's done a series of videos on YouTube on the build. You should check them out. It amazes me that he doesn't reach for a power tool once!


----------



## Sawyer (27 Apr 2016)

Jacob":a41lekfj said:


> phil.p":a41lekfj said:
> 
> 
> > Interestingly, I've just had an email from Axi - only £96 - go for it!!
> ...



Don't forget the special (no doubt essential) jig-specific screwdriver. A snip at just £19.96. :lol: 

http://www.axminster.co.uk/lie-nielsen- ... ning_Guide


----------



## Jacob (27 Apr 2016)

Sawyer":1fhs8hh8 said:


> Jacob":1fhs8hh8 said:
> 
> 
> > phil.p":1fhs8hh8 said:
> ...


The odd thing about that screwdriver (besides the ridiculous price) is that short screwdrivers are relatively useless and inconvenient (except where space demands it. if working inside a box etc.) 
So why have they done a short one? Probably because everybody already has several long ones (which would do the job better) but it looks sort of specialised and purposeful. A delusion to trap a tooly! Not far off a confidence trick.


----------



## Bm101 (28 Apr 2016)

Just when you thought this thread was dead I'm going to drag it kicking and screaming back into the daylight and probably make myself look an eejjiit again. 
So the little Metabo hand grinder turned up today. The wheel is shot to pieces but I'd kinda guessed it would be. It'll make a nice tea coaster. Other than that its in remarkably good nick. I'll do a little rust removal on the moving parts, a quick oil and leave the rest alone. Does anyone have a recommendation for a (tiny) 3" wheel to substitute for the stone original? I was thinking a honing wheel rather than a grinding wheel. Any ideas what I need to be looking at?

Here's the laughy part. 
I bought the Lidl sharpening wheel. 15 notes. Worth a punt? I picked it up and put it down a few times I'll admit.  Then I thought sod it. I'll have the receipt if it packs up mysteriously in an electrical fashion :-" . 
Tried it on a no 6 plane blade that was *rotten* and needed about 2 hours of wet and dry grinding. 
It has a little plastic jig with magnets to hold your blade and you can set it to a required angle. Proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. 
Well, here's the thing. The bigger plane blade won't be accomodated by the guide. it won't travel far enough. so there's about 7 mm it just won't reach. In for a penny I thought. I can grind the rest out later. So, where angels fear to tread how do fools who rush in find it?

Well actually; alright. 
Using the guide is a non starter. It's as flimsy and rubbish as you'd expect. It angled the blade okish tbf. I got an approximate 25 degrees. But start sliding it and you're off to hell in a handcart pretty fast. Non starter. As rubbish as you'd expect it to be. Tosh in fact.
So why's it alright? This is a two bob bit of kit. It's not going to compete with a proper sharpening machine is it? Well. here's the thing.Because it's a multi purpose sharpener. It has various plastic attachments. The chisel/ plane at a stretch one, a drill bit one and a knife scissors one. All a bit shoddy. But it has a little motor but the wheels (you get a spare), are made of sparkles and fairy dust.











So you remove the naff plastic guides, toss 'em. Then you get a bit of timber cut to the right angle and affix that bad boy to the aforementioned. Diamond grinding wheel for 15 quid. What next at Lidl? Make your own Spaceshuttle for a fiver?  This'll probably last as long as the Lidl Shuttle but for occasional grinding? Fair play. Slowish speed and thin wheel maybe helped to dissipate heat. No over heating of the blade at least to my inexperienced eye. Decent removal rate and not too aggresive. Good catch I'd hazard.

Cheers!
Chris


----------



## Jacob (28 Apr 2016)

So what does it do that you can't do without it? It can't save energy compared to free handing on a flat stone - you only get out what you put in. Which is why it won't overheat - you'd need a big flywheel to get that sort of energy out, albeit briefly.


----------



## Bm101 (28 Apr 2016)

It saves me about an hour grinding by hand Jacob so yeh to my mind that saves energy. And wet and dry (or whatever media you'd be using) I'm not talking about sharpening fella. So what does it do. It frees my time up to do more interesting things tbh.

Edit. Here's the blade I was doing and this picture doesn't do it justice. Had to do a clean grind about 4mm thick on it.


----------

